{"total":{"value":110,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2025-04-30"],"total_page":2,"ivods":[{"id":"16636","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16636","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea001fad9b8cd413aff2562bec6fef2293f7d7f547ae1974406ec3c03675b2c6be5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-30T14:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：一、本院內政委員會報告併案審查委員賴士葆等22人及委員許宇甄等19人分別擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」、委員高金素梅等18人、委員牛煦庭等22人、台灣民眾黨黨團、委員楊瓊瓔等31人、委員林思銘等20人、委員翁曉玲等18人、委員葉元之等21人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員張智倫等18人、委員羅廷瑋等23人、委員萬美玲等19人、委員黃健豪等16人、委員廖偉翔等16人、委員高金素梅等29人及委員徐欣瑩等25人分別擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」、委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人、委員王鴻薇等19人及委員林倩綺等20人分別擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」、委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」、委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」及委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二、本院委員張嘉郡等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」，請審議案。三、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「中華民國國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」，請審議案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-30T13:29:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T14:46:00+08:00","duration":4561,"影片長度":"01:16:01","委員發言時間":"13:29:59 - 14:46:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"meet":{"sessionPeriod":3,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[15],"term":11,"id":"黨團協商-2025042959","type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商"},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1947.9122187500002,"end":1948.2159687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1954.9153437500001,"end":1957.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1957.4465937500001,"end":1981.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1982.8434687500003,"end":1983.6703437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1984.7840937500002,"end":1985.5940937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1986.5559687500001,"end":1987.3828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1988.78346875,"end":1989.5765937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1990.5215937500002,"end":1991.3990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1993.2215937500002,"end":1996.7653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1998.06471875,"end":1998.6722187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2000.9503437500002,"end":2003.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2005.3209687500002,"end":2006.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2007.5822187500003,"end":2009.7084687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2011.8684687500001,"end":2014.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2014.36596875,"end":2019.0740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2019.3103437500001,"end":2022.3309687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2022.5672187500002,"end":2023.6809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2026.0940937500002,"end":2027.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2029.5197187500003,"end":2042.2940937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2042.4797187500003,"end":2054.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2054.3259687500004,"end":2067.7078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2067.7584687500002,"end":2070.7284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2071.16721875,"end":2073.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2074.25534375,"end":2075.5378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2076.3984687500006,"end":2076.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2078.35596875,"end":2079.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2079.5878437500005,"end":2080.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2081.3934687500005,"end":2082.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2100.27659375,"end":2100.8672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2102.45346875,"end":2104.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2106.08159375,"end":2106.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2111.7009687500004,"end":2119.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2120.1553437500006,"end":2136.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2138.38034375,"end":2140.0847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2140.0847187500003,"end":2145.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2145.5184687500005,"end":2145.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2145.53534375,"end":2146.4803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2145.53534375,"end":2146.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2147.12159375,"end":2147.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2147.89784375,"end":2148.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2149.1297187500004,"end":2152.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2152.82534375,"end":2152.9772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2152.9772187500002,"end":2153.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2153.12909375,"end":2153.1797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2153.1797187500006,"end":2153.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2153.2303437500004,"end":2153.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2154.34409375,"end":2155.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2156.63909375,"end":2158.0565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2159.2547187500004,"end":2160.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2160.9928437500002,"end":2162.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2162.5790937500005,"end":2164.1315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2163.7772187500004,"end":2163.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2163.81096875,"end":2164.0134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2164.1315937500003,"end":2164.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2172.07971875,"end":2180.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2181.29346875,"end":2215.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2218.82346875,"end":2220.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2220.5447187500004,"end":2225.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2226.1472187500003,"end":2235.6815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2237.0147187500006,"end":2240.3222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2241.2334687500006,"end":2251.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2254.26096875,"end":2260.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2260.7409687500003,"end":2272.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2272.3678437500002,"end":2274.8990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2277.97034375,"end":2278.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2278.0378437500003,"end":2278.0547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2279.2528437500005,"end":2282.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2282.23971875,"end":2283.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2284.29846875,"end":2286.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2286.45846875,"end":2287.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2288.12909375,"end":2289.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2291.0147187500006,"end":2291.3522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2292.12846875,"end":2297.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2299.3847187500005,"end":2302.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2303.40096875,"end":2304.7340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2305.2403437500006,"end":2307.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2309.10471875,"end":2311.2647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2312.07471875,"end":2313.0703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2313.62721875,"end":2316.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2316.46221875,"end":2319.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2320.86659375,"end":2324.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2325.25409375,"end":2328.2578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2328.57846875,"end":2329.9959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2331.12659375,"end":2333.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2333.69159375,"end":2336.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2336.76284375,"end":2337.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2339.0240937500002,"end":2342.7703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2343.83346875,"end":2345.2340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2345.87534375,"end":2351.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2352.81096875,"end":2353.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2353.9753437500003,"end":2354.4140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2354.8865937500004,"end":2355.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2357.43471875,"end":2359.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2360.57346875,"end":2361.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2362.49721875,"end":2363.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2364.03284375,"end":2365.2478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2365.3828437500006,"end":2366.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2366.68221875,"end":2367.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2367.7959687500006,"end":2373.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2374.0397187500002,"end":2378.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2379.7097187500003,"end":2383.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2384.4178437500004,"end":2387.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2389.1259687500005,"end":2389.6153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2390.29034375,"end":2392.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2393.59784375,"end":2395.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2395.7409687500003,"end":2396.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2396.55096875,"end":2397.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2399.0653437500005,"end":2399.7234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2400.24659375,"end":2401.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2402.47409375,"end":2403.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2406.20346875,"end":2406.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2406.2372187500005,"end":2406.3553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2406.3553437500004,"end":2406.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2406.9628437500005,"end":2407.3340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2407.6209687500004,"end":2436.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2436.9834687500006,"end":2440.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2440.37534375,"end":2448.8972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2449.40346875,"end":2451.6815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2452.37346875,"end":2499.7753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2500.11284375,"end":2515.4522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2516.07659375,"end":2518.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2518.72596875,"end":2519.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2522.94471875,"end":2527.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2527.9059687500003,"end":2619.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2619.9590937500006,"end":2639.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2639.6690937500007,"end":2695.2722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2697.2128437500005,"end":2698.3097187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2699.23784375,"end":2700.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2704.72221875,"end":2704.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2709.3290937500005,"end":2709.4978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2743.0790937500005,"end":2743.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2748.9853437500005,"end":2786.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2787.4772187500002,"end":2789.2322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2789.33346875,"end":2792.6072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2793.1472187500003,"end":2797.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2797.3153437500005,"end":2799.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2800.2178437500006,"end":2802.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2802.5634687500005,"end":2810.3259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2810.6803437500002,"end":2813.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2813.38034375,"end":2814.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2814.17346875,"end":2820.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2821.1259687500005,"end":2822.1384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2822.6784687500003,"end":2828.8209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2829.2090937500006,"end":2829.4284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2830.4072187500005,"end":2832.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2836.02659375,"end":2836.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2837.0390937500006,"end":2837.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2838.7097187500003,"end":2839.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2842.54034375,"end":2845.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2846.9615937500002,"end":2852.2097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2850.2353437500005,"end":2850.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2852.2097187500003,"end":2854.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2855.61846875,"end":2856.6140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2857.44096875,"end":2858.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2859.1453437500004,"end":2859.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2861.5078437500006,"end":2861.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2862.5372187500006,"end":2863.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2864.19096875,"end":2865.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2866.1990937500004,"end":2866.4522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2866.6378437500007,"end":2868.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2868.6628437500003,"end":2869.6922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2873.8603437500005,"end":2874.5859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2876.54346875,"end":2878.0115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2878.46721875,"end":2879.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2880.1209687500004,"end":2893.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2893.6209687500004,"end":2901.2147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2901.55221875,"end":2942.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2906.14221875,"end":2906.2097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2942.23784375,"end":2951.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2951.21534375,"end":2959.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2959.23096875,"end":2963.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2964.2428437500002,"end":2964.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2964.9684687500003,"end":2966.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2966.9597187500003,"end":2967.4490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2968.1240937500006,"end":2969.8115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2968.37721875,"end":2981.5059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2981.7422187500006,"end":2996.6934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2996.76096875,"end":3001.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3001.9247187500005,"end":3008.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3008.9278437500006,"end":3014.5134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3014.9522187500006,"end":3015.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3016.11659375,"end":3021.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3021.5672187500004,"end":3027.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3027.81096875,"end":3030.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3030.57846875,"end":3031.7090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3034.98284375,"end":3067.1803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3054.55784375,"end":3055.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3067.2478437500004,"end":3075.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3076.0059687500006,"end":3079.9209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3080.2078437500004,"end":3082.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3083.00909375,"end":3095.1084687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3095.54721875,"end":3096.2559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3096.4922187500006,"end":3106.6003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3106.95471875,"end":3108.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3109.2159687500007,"end":3123.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3123.6778437500006,"end":3151.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3133.8534687500005,"end":3134.4609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3151.8590937500003,"end":3255.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3255.4209687500006,"end":3290.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3287.31471875,"end":3287.6522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3290.87534375,"end":3302.2322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3302.45159375,"end":3303.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3304.18971875,"end":3306.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3306.67034375,"end":3306.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3307.39596875,"end":3308.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3309.57284375,"end":3310.5515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3314.7703437500004,"end":3315.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3317.14971875,"end":3319.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3320.6090937500003,"end":3324.8953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3325.9415937500007,"end":3330.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3331.62846875,"end":3332.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3333.5690937500003,"end":3333.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3335.17221875,"end":3336.3028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3336.8934687500005,"end":3337.8047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3338.49659375,"end":3339.2390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3339.39096875,"end":3340.3865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3341.1122187500005,"end":3341.3990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3342.2597187500005,"end":3344.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3344.87534375,"end":3346.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3347.4403437500005,"end":3348.3009687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3349.76909375,"end":3350.6297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3351.2372187500005,"end":3351.9459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3352.95846875,"end":3354.0722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3354.7809687500003,"end":3355.5234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3355.8778437500005,"end":3364.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3364.6022187500002,"end":3371.9597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3372.3815937500003,"end":3375.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3376.3809687500006,"end":3382.1522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3385.2234687500004,"end":3385.2403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3385.2403437500006,"end":3393.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3393.7115937500002,"end":3395.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3398.52096875,"end":3401.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3401.89596875,"end":3406.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3406.95846875,"end":3409.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3409.96221875,"end":3410.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3410.94096875,"end":3413.7253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3413.9615937500002,"end":3416.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3416.40846875,"end":3416.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3417.2353437500005,"end":3417.6403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3418.4334687500004,"end":3420.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3420.6103437500005,"end":3421.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3421.77471875,"end":3422.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3423.9684687500003,"end":3426.1622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3427.7653437500003,"end":3442.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3442.9697187500005,"end":3443.9315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3444.08346875,"end":3446.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3447.0703437500006,"end":3447.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3452.80784375,"end":3454.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3463.30409375,"end":3464.1309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3464.1309687500006,"end":3464.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3464.1647187500002,"end":3465.2109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3464.7215937500005,"end":3465.0759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3465.2109687500006,"end":3465.8015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3465.8015937500004,"end":3483.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3468.2315937500007,"end":3468.7715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3468.7715937500006,"end":3468.8053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3472.93971875,"end":3474.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3477.6647187500002,"end":3478.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3480.97221875,"end":3481.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3483.9590937500006,"end":3486.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3486.15284375,"end":3487.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3487.9415937500007,"end":3488.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3492.8184687500006,"end":3493.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3493.74659375,"end":3493.7634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3493.7634687500004,"end":3493.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3493.9659687500007,"end":3494.7928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3495.8053437500002,"end":3495.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3495.97409375,"end":3496.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3496.5478437500005,"end":3496.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3496.86846875,"end":3496.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3496.88534375,"end":3497.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3498.45471875,"end":3498.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3499.3828437500006,"end":3501.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3502.1334687500002,"end":3503.2472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3503.3653437500006,"end":3504.9178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3505.18784375,"end":3505.8122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3522.3834687500002,"end":3523.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3523.2272187500002,"end":3525.5390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3525.55596875,"end":3527.8847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3531.3103437500004,"end":3534.7022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3535.0565937500005,"end":3536.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3536.9128437500003,"end":3540.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3541.06409375,"end":3541.4522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3541.48596875,"end":3543.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3549.41721875,"end":3550.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3553.5515937500004,"end":3554.1759687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3555.0197187500007,"end":3556.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3557.26409375,"end":3558.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3562.9678437500006,"end":3569.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3564.97596875,"end":3565.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3567.22034375,"end":3567.5409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3569.8865937500004,"end":3571.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3572.28284375,"end":3573.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3573.59909375,"end":3576.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3573.6834687500004,"end":3573.7003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3573.71721875,"end":3573.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3574.07159375,"end":3574.2740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3574.5947187500005,"end":3574.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3575.3709687500004,"end":3576.2147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3576.36659375,"end":3576.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3576.4003437500005,"end":3577.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3576.61971875,"end":3576.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3576.92346875,"end":3579.1847187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3579.1847187500007,"end":3582.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3582.0028437500005,"end":3583.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3583.11659375,"end":3590.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3591.7228437500007,"end":3601.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3601.4597187500003,"end":3628.5440937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3629.10096875,"end":3650.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3650.43096875,"end":3653.6709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3654.12659375,"end":3655.2234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3658.8515937500006,"end":3659.1384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3660.15096875,"end":3662.9522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3663.82971875,"end":3663.9815937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3664.3190937500003,"end":3665.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3665.4834687500006,"end":3666.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3667.4072187500005,"end":3668.1834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3669.2128437500005,"end":3671.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3672.3515937500006,"end":3672.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3672.9590937500006,"end":3678.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3678.57846875,"end":3680.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3680.56971875,"end":3684.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3684.36659375,"end":3684.8222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3691.8084687500004,"end":3698.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3698.6090937500003,"end":3701.4103437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3701.9334687500004,"end":3704.1778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3704.7178437500006,"end":3705.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3706.5234687500006,"end":3707.3165937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3707.82284375,"end":3708.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3709.4765937500006,"end":3710.1178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3710.3709687500004,"end":3710.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3711.4003437500005,"end":3714.8428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3716.14221875,"end":3717.2390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3718.0997187500006,"end":3722.9597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3722.70659375,"end":3740.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3736.74659375,"end":3737.4215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3741.4209687500006,"end":3741.7078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3742.83846875,"end":3743.4628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3743.26034375,"end":3743.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3743.4628437500005,"end":3743.6484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3743.8847187500005,"end":3745.2009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3745.5215937500006,"end":3746.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3746.75346875,"end":3748.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3749.87534375,"end":3750.7022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3750.78659375,"end":3758.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3759.0722187500005,"end":3761.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3763.2403437500006,"end":3763.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3771.6609687500004,"end":3773.7703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3773.87159375,"end":3774.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3774.90096875,"end":3775.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3776.40284375,"end":3778.2928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3778.2928437500004,"end":3778.3097187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3793.02471875,"end":3793.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3799.0828437500004,"end":3799.5890937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3799.9434687500006,"end":3821.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3802.98096875,"end":3803.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3821.8134687500005,"end":3822.1847187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3825.0534687500003,"end":3827.1628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3827.5340937500005,"end":3839.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3839.6334687500002,"end":3841.1015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3842.0465937500003,"end":3843.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3844.4597187500003,"end":3844.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3844.51034375,"end":3845.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3844.5272187500004,"end":3845.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3845.35409375,"end":3856.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3857.6222187500007,"end":3858.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3860.28846875,"end":3862.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3862.9715937500005,"end":3869.1309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3869.5865937500002,"end":3870.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3871.62846875,"end":3873.8390937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3874.3115937500006,"end":3876.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3876.67409375,"end":3878.5978437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3878.8678437500002,"end":3881.4328437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3881.9559687500005,"end":3896.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3898.7803437500006,"end":3899.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3899.4890937500004,"end":3900.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3900.0290937500004,"end":3900.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3900.60284375,"end":3901.0078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3901.0078437500006,"end":3901.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3901.1090937500003,"end":3909.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3910.1203437500008,"end":3915.8409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3916.2965937500003,"end":3919.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3920.8865937500004,"end":3921.2409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3920.9372187500003,"end":3923.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3923.0634687500005,"end":3924.4978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3925.9659687500007,"end":3926.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3926.6915937500007,"end":3928.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3929.35784375,"end":3948.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3948.5109687500008,"end":3952.9490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3953.10096875,"end":3954.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3954.78846875,"end":3956.3409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3955.8347187500003,"end":3956.1047187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3956.3409687500007,"end":3969.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3969.4528437500003,"end":3979.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3979.51034375,"end":3979.5272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3979.5272187500004,"end":4000.4522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4000.9415937500007,"end":4001.6672187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4007.16846875,"end":4015.0828437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4015.53846875,"end":4019.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4019.40284375,"end":4020.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4020.2803437500006,"end":4022.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4020.4659687500007,"end":4025.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4026.3047187500006,"end":4028.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4028.6672187500008,"end":4030.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4030.65846875,"end":4032.8184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4035.67034375,"end":4039.4334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4039.5009687500005,"end":4039.9059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4046.3522187500002,"end":4046.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4046.94284375,"end":4047.0440937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4048.2422187500006,"end":4048.5459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4049.0184687500005,"end":4049.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4049.05221875,"end":4049.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4049.8622187500005,"end":4049.8790937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4049.9297187500006,"end":4065.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4066.3153437500005,"end":4073.5040937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4073.99346875,"end":4074.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4076.0184687500005,"end":4077.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4077.73971875,"end":4078.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4079.42721875,"end":4080.3553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4081.0303437500006,"end":4081.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4082.7853437500007,"end":4084.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4084.3209687500002,"end":4085.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4089.1134687500007,"end":4089.9572187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4093.77096875,"end":4098.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4098.76596875,"end":4100.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4100.53784375,"end":4101.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4102.343468749999,"end":4103.001593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4103.001593749999,"end":4103.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4103.03534375,"end":4112.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4113.19409375,"end":4116.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4117.41284375,"end":4119.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4119.032843749999,"end":4119.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4119.10034375,"end":4119.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4119.11721875,"end":4119.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4119.15096875,"end":4119.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4124.36534375,"end":4129.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4129.967843750001,"end":4133.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4134.2372187500005,"end":4138.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4138.9959687499995,"end":4139.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4140.1434687500005,"end":4145.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4146.370343750001,"end":4149.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4150.09971875,"end":4153.626593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4153.7615937499995,"end":4168.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4168.257218750001,"end":4172.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4172.86409375,"end":4174.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4174.669718749999,"end":4175.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4175.78346875,"end":4175.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4175.86784375,"end":4175.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4175.96909375,"end":4176.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4176.087218750001,"end":4176.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4176.9647187499995,"end":4177.437218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4177.589093750001,"end":4193.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4198.7840937500005,"end":4203.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4204.57221875,"end":4207.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4207.89659375,"end":4210.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4211.25471875,"end":4213.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4214.96721875,"end":4217.329718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4218.42659375,"end":4219.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4220.856593750001,"end":4223.472218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4224.079718749999,"end":4228.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4228.450343750001,"end":4234.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4234.8290937500005,"end":4260.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4260.52971875,"end":4262.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4262.16659375,"end":4308.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4311.171593749999,"end":4313.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4313.34846875,"end":4314.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4315.778468750001,"end":4316.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4316.74034375,"end":4318.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4319.49096875,"end":4336.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4336.872218750001,"end":4350.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4350.8447187500005,"end":4352.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4352.78534375,"end":4353.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4353.645968750001,"end":4355.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4357.84784375,"end":4358.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4360.497218750001,"end":4360.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4362.0497187500005,"end":4367.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4367.702843749999,"end":4372.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4373.052218750001,"end":4374.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4375.00971875,"end":4380.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4380.409718749999,"end":4387.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4387.632218750001,"end":4390.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4390.450343750001,"end":4397.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4397.92596875,"end":4406.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4407.325343750001,"end":4410.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4411.729718750001,"end":4414.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4416.96096875,"end":4416.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4416.977843750001,"end":4417.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4417.88909375,"end":4417.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4419.71159375,"end":4428.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4430.376593749999,"end":4439.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4440.889718750001,"end":4440.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4440.90659375,"end":4441.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4441.59846875,"end":4441.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4441.632218750001,"end":4441.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4441.632218750001,"end":4442.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4441.80096875,"end":4442.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4442.03721875,"end":4442.796593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4442.77971875,"end":4442.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4442.796593749999,"end":4442.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4442.96534375,"end":4443.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4443.825968749999,"end":4443.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4443.85971875,"end":4445.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4444.33221875,"end":4448.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4446.087218750001,"end":4446.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4448.567843750001,"end":4448.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4448.6522187499995,"end":4449.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4449.5634687500005,"end":4449.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4450.50846875,"end":4452.128468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4452.34784375,"end":4472.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4473.66096875,"end":4473.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4474.84221875,"end":4477.019093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4477.677218750001,"end":4480.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4480.42784375,"end":4480.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4481.187218749999,"end":4482.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4482.06471875,"end":4482.081593749999}],"whisperx":[{"start":1947.952,"end":1948.12,"text":"阿里啊"},{"start":1954.943,"end":1980.983,"text":"好 大家午安現在開始開會我們今天進行的黨團協商的法案是紀念日及節日實施條例的草案是在114年3月31號本院內政委員會第十一屆第三會期第七次會議審查完略並決議須交黨團協商與本次會議進行黨團協商現在我們先介紹在場委員跟行政機關列席的代表首先是羅志強委員鄭天才委員"},{"start":1984.984,"end":2009.597,"text":"陳昭志委員麥玉珍委員陳培鈺委員還有文美惠委員官員的部分我們內政部今天有常務市長吳唐安常務市長代表好我們主要就剩下我們就參閱官員的名單好不好好有關於還有我們勞動部陳敏仁常務市長不好意思喔"},{"start":2011.923,"end":2023.493,"text":"好其他部分我們就參照名單好不好那有關本日協商會議為了這個有利協商進度我們就照審查會的保留條文我們進行逐條協商有沒有問題對保留的條文嘛"},{"start":2029.551,"end":2053.754,"text":"好謝謝大家參與協商上一次委員會其實這個法案基本上有一定的共識我們當然還是很希望可以透過委員會層級的這個協商今天大家就達成共識以立法案競訴的三讀那如果這樣子的一個今天的黨團協商可以圓滿達成共識大家簽字畫押那其實這個就可以快速三讀通過才是滿足我們廣大勞工朋友對立法院通過民生法案的期望"},{"start":2054.435,"end":2081.923,"text":"那當然現在還有所謂的協商冷凍期今天搞定就沒有冷凍期的問題但今天如果還是沒有辦法那我們就繼續努力那我們希望今天的協商不要是毫無意義的拖延好那我們就開始從上次委員會審查保留的條文開始第三條紀念日的名稱與日期那請問各黨團有沒有什麼想法要發表的"},{"start":2100.293,"end":2106.718,"text":"我們上一次或前幾次在委員會審查的時候基本上是"},{"start":2120.961,"end":2136.259,"text":"劉許廷委員版本還有國民黨黨團提的修正動議還有我們民眾黨黨團的版本還有我們高金素美委員的版本這幾個版本來做討論的母體那上次當然沒有共識嘛所以保留協商那我們現在第三條的部分看看大家還沒有什麼意見"},{"start":2138.63,"end":2157.647,"text":"現在直接到第三條了主條啊 因為按照上次還沒有還有七條沒有處理嘛 三四五六七十 還有六條沒有處理嘛主席 請我們是不是第三條的保留對不對那他們工部門的領地是怎樣有什麼困難請他們比較會回答一下好 請吳長安市長"},{"start":2172.293,"end":2189.682,"text":"主席 各位委員我想這個有關今天是節日這個條例的那個有關內容的部分這邊也跟大家報告那我想那個原本我們在89年立法院當時互代決議的討論的一個放假日已經達到115到116天那這也是歷來潰傷相關政府機關跟工商團體的共識那本屆大"},{"start":2196.525,"end":2214.959,"text":"大院各位議員所提的版本我們陸陸續續在看內容其實有26個版本所以有包括有訂定增刪紀念日或放假或不放假這些問題的部分那這個部分以內政部的立場也是希望再廣大大家的意見因為還是很多分歧是不是有鄰居共識之後再來處理以上"},{"start":2221.015,"end":2239.646,"text":"這樣子其實以行政單位的跟我們這邊剛講的我們之前也是討論過很多了但行政單位他們目前也是認為沒有修法的必要所以我還是表達一下就是說"},{"start":2241.317,"end":2250.23,"text":"行政單位如果認為沒有修法的必要那我們上次的分歧的那麼多那你現在如果要逐條的話我們會有結果嗎"},{"start":2254.295,"end":2274.488,"text":"沒有結果該努力協商的部分我們總是該做的做嘛不過我們一直在問民進黨因為相對來講其實國民黨黨團這邊民眾黨黨團這邊還有我們原住民高金委員這邊的版本其實算相對明確嘛相對明確那現在是民進黨黨團因為之前我沒有講嘛給大家很多的時間來做討論跟審查就是請你提出版本嘛那今天是不是有相關的版本可以出來一起討論呢"},{"start":2279.881,"end":2307.295,"text":"行政單位就說沒有必要修法所以你們認為就是因為因為沒有必要修法所以也就就不同意 沒有版本嘛好 請鄭天才委員好這個內政部要聽清楚因為你這個到內政部沒有很久依照行政程序法的規定法規命令要有法律的授權"},{"start":2309.147,"end":2337.544,"text":"依照行政程序法的規定現在的紀念日及節日時是辦法它是辦法它是法規命令沒有法律的授權是違法的中華民國的內政部首席部違法到現在我們每個人常常要我們所放假的規定既然都是違法的"},{"start":2339.076,"end":2363.099,"text":"怎麼可以沒有意見要積極的去溝通協調才對啊想辦法促成啊到底第三因為我們現在到第三條上次保留條到底第三條哪幾個你認為不妥還是不需要可以提出來大家來討論啊而不是說不用不用"},{"start":2364.096,"end":2392.37,"text":"你要維持這個違違反中央法規標準法違反行政程序法的法規密定行這個辦法幾十年的你看你如果90年開始實施行政程序法啊啊好不好我們要努力的去去達成嗎啊然後你的報告這麼簡單對不對你應該分析說我們提的哪些"},{"start":2393.649,"end":2403.324,"text":"哪些需要再討論需要再考量這樣才是一個負責任的我的建議是這樣"},{"start":2406.24,"end":2430.423,"text":"好 請陳昭志委員好 第一個我先回應這個就是正常這個剛剛這個政委員提的我們要入法我們不要再行政這個機關就是片面性的決定而且一年也都可以一直在做更動第一個我們主張國定假日一定要就是入法以後大家要照這個法規來行使第二個就是說我也不知道執政黨為什麼一直在躲避"},{"start":2431.344,"end":2448.199,"text":"這個你2016年蔡英文上任之後一個月之後就偷走了就沒收了這個勞工的七天假這個七天假幾年來八年來勞工天天就叫你們還給他七天假你們沒收的時候也沒有談共識啊"},{"start":2449.8,"end":2465.055,"text":"今天剛剛你們那個報告那個次長那些報告一一凝聚共識你當初沒收的時候有共識嗎你現在要談共識共識不起來天下哪一件事有共識第二個就是說total7天你要還回來"},{"start":2466.356,"end":2492.951,"text":"我們民眾黨基本上我們就希望主張我們要加入一個12月18號的國際移民日國際移民日因為現在的全世界的移民人數越來越多各個國家WHO聯合國大概在兩七年就訂定了一個國際移民日那事實上內政部英國一百年就開始紀念就把這個當一個紀念日在有一些節慶有一些紀念的行動那我們是主張或建議把這個"},{"start":2493.971,"end":2519.407,"text":"也正式納入他的一個國定假日以及一方面就是幫助這個移民他們能夠在台灣進入很快的共融在我們這個社會裡也表達對多元文化的一個尊重所以我們的訴求很簡單那至於名稱等等等等怎麼用自遣詞我想就尊重大家的意見好 謝謝好 謝謝我們陳昭志委員請高清素美委員"},{"start":2522.981,"end":2542.469,"text":"好 非常謝謝我這邊還是要提為什麼要以法律定制呢第一個我要談的是過去民進黨的立場我們翻篇的所有的資料從101年一直到112年民進黨總共有23位的立法委員提出了11個有關紀念日跟節日的法案"},{"start":2543.169,"end":2557.565,"text":"其中立法說明非常的明確的說現行制度是違反中央法規標準法第五條凡是涉及人民權利義務者應該要以法律定之這表示什麼"},{"start":2558.366,"end":2577.62,"text":"節日法治化其實成是民進黨內部的共識那我手上有一個這個表待會大家有興趣的話可以看從101年一直到112年那裡面提案的委員還有包括我們現在的蕭副總統都有提案所以呢"},{"start":2578.42,"end":2599.117,"text":"所以我覺得現在內政部所提的這個部分是沒有辦法說服人的再來我要講的是原住民族日列為法定的紀念日就有十個版本了然後稅時計一放假的三日就有三個版本累計有十個委員總共有四十人次的連署"},{"start":2599.637,"end":2618.816,"text":"再來原住民逐日的放假的有兩個版本總共有四位委員二十六個人連署勞動節全國放假的有兩案總共有三位委員提出共三十個人連署所以以上我們看到民進黨佔有非常多的立委其實也同意要"},{"start":2620.031,"end":2638.726,"text":"用法律把我們所謂的紀念日和節日讓它用法律來訂定那麼我再說一下我的立場我非常遺憾的就是當年主張法制化的委員今天卻選擇沉默甚至撤案"},{"start":2639.827,"end":2657.013,"text":"然後行政機關是用法規命令較有彈性為迴避我們的立法但是實際上之前曾經被承諾的假日到現在根本就沒有落實所以我認為不可以再讓原住民和勞工的權益被執政黨還有行政機關是任意擺佈"},{"start":2661.274,"end":2679.214,"text":"明確的立法才能夠真正保障文化權利跟休假的正義那我今天呢也有提出一個在鄉鎮動議的版本我把原住民族轉型正義紀念日就是10月31號把它拿掉然後呢對於原住民的紀念日和名稱的日期呢有兩個"},{"start":2680.575,"end":2694.992,"text":"第一個呢就是原住民族抵抗日是6月26號第二個是原住民族日是8月1號以上呢我的那個在修正動議的版本也已經發到各位的手上了以上謝謝好謝謝高經緯還有人意見嗎"},{"start":2743.164,"end":2743.184,"text":"嗯"},{"start":2749.305,"end":2775.157,"text":"來我跟委員會報告一下現在這一題的狀況是這樣因為上次委員會的時候其實很多人都有提出哪一些東西要放在紀念日裡面所以就會造成版本非常多那現在大家手上這一本協商會議的參考資料裡面有不同的版本其中最左邊這一欄是上一次委員會就所有有提的都暫時放入這是一種版本那另外還有各個委員民眾黨黨團高清素美委員等等提案的原始版本跟修正動議我的意見是這樣就是說如果今天大家能夠坐下來"},{"start":2775.897,"end":2803.466,"text":"大家把這個日子都確定下來大家彼此要稍微各退一步嘛因為像民進黨提了五六個對不對剛剛之前高金委員本來提兩個嘛今天拿掉一個變成提一個本來是三個剩兩個嘛我是覺得各個有提案的委員或各個政黨的單位比如說按從最原始的辦法升級成條例的時候比如說每一組代表比如說多提兩個大家至少比較平均也比較公平這是一種解法"},{"start":2803.806,"end":2831.183,"text":"那如果我們今天可以把這個東西精簡出來就變成一個版本那這條我們就有順利辦法在這個協商的平台達成共識這是第一種劇本第二個如果大家依然爭論不休那大概也沒什麼好討論的啦也沒什麼好就是變得沒有共識嘛我先請問一下民進黨黨團的意見好不好因為至少現在國民黨民眾黨跟高進委員版本現在是比較靠近的要整合的速度是比較快的跟本來原始條件就只差一兩個節日而已那請問民進黨黨團現在針對這樣有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":2837.229,"end":2865.355,"text":"確定不努力一下嗎所以明確基本上就是因為部會不贊成所以你們也不贊成是這樣意思嗎不是這樣子啦這個大家分歧很大對不對好沒關係協商本來就是盡量解決嘛所以這條沒有共識喔真是太遺憾了再來第四條哪一些紀念日要放假"},{"start":2867.205,"end":2869.611,"text":"簡單來說,哪一些紀念日要放假?請問各黨團的意見來,請問議政委員"},{"start":2877.305,"end":2900.026,"text":"謝謝主席我們黨團的版本還有我就堅持說我們12月希望大家就是給我們設定就是國定假日移民日所以因為我們第一個的精神就是多元文化還有就是說包容還有族群的融合所以我們是多種語言"},{"start":2901.647,"end":2919.808,"text":"多元文化的共識和社會所以覺得就是要為新住民在台灣就是有這個放假日不只是一個就是紀念日更是一種宣示台灣是包容多元的社會所以我們希望說我們12月18號"},{"start":2922.891,"end":2949.439,"text":"是让大家来认识新住民移民日的精神还有各国的文化也让我们了解说我们台湾的友善所以希望说我们也认同新住民对台湾的贡献所以希望大家就是达成共识也支持说我们的12月18日是我们可以全国"},{"start":2951.38,"end":2953.563,"text":"互助還有包容多元的一個時間跟日子希望這個就可以支持我們的12月18號全國放假以上謝謝"},{"start":2964.321,"end":2984.546,"text":"好 謝謝 還有哪位委員有意見嗎高靜委員 抱歉 待會陳培議員好不好對不起 那我的修正動物的第四條我本來是一樣原住民轉型紀念正義日也是有那麼我現在有放 我把它拿掉了那麼現在原住民只剩兩個一個就是原住民族抵抗日跟原住民族日"},{"start":2985.126,"end":2998.936,"text":"那麼我在這邊還是跟這個莊委說一下你們第四條就是在修正動員版本那個部分有把台灣光復祭金門古泥頭大節紀念日放進去我們看到那個修正動員版本"},{"start":3000.117,"end":3027.165,"text":"如果這個在修正動議版本大家同意的話那麼我是堅持就是原住民族抵抗日我一定要放進去這是對原住民族來講是一個非常重要的一個日子也就是6月26號這一天對台灣的原住民族來講這是我們這塊土地上很重要的一個日子所以我堅持就是要把原住民族抵抗日放在裡面"},{"start":3027.865,"end":3054.711,"text":"以上 大家待會可以討論一下 謝謝好 請陳佩玉委員好 謝謝主席主席 我再跟您確認喔我現在手上的版本有這個高金委員的修正動議這個單張版然後還有這個委員會發的這個黃色紙的版本但是如果我們要按照高金委員的修正動議來討論那基本上剛剛民眾黨團的提案裡面就沒有含到在高金委員的版本裡面就沒有這個意義嗎"},{"start":3056.151,"end":3082.244,"text":"對那如果看對對我知道那如果我們其實看起來還是有這麼多的歧義我就是還是認為應該要保留而且基本上4跟3是連動的啦所以我認為如果3保留那是不是4就一併保留謝謝好謝謝陳菲議員我說明一下第一個是民眾黨脈力爭委員提的因為我們上次在委員會討論的時候這個移民日是放在節日啦所以說他會在節日裡面那移民日要不要放假應該是在哪幾個節日要放假那個是第第六條"},{"start":3083.064,"end":3108.605,"text":"第六條裡面 第六條的時候我們再來做討論那高進委員剛剛的意思應該是說在紀念日的時候原住民族抵抗日一定要納入啦一定要納入 那放假的部分看看有沒有堅持因為如果民眾黨委員這邊 民進黨現在是確定沒有共識嘛那民眾黨委員這邊跟高進委員這邊如果針對放假看看能不能按照本來國民黨黨團的提案版本我們這邊先做一個整合"},{"start":3109.326,"end":3122.833,"text":"因為我的意思是說我們之前在討論的時候也很清楚說這一次修法針對原住民族的放假它的重點其實是放在歲時記憶的假日的增加那我覺得這一點我們我覺得大部分人都會支持所以說在假日的部分我們能不能稍微收束一下意見"},{"start":3123.917,"end":3145.866,"text":"可是在假日裡面對原住民族來講那個紀念日是不一樣的我還是要講一下原住民抵抗日的由來啦給我一點時間大家都聽一下就是原住民抵抗日是我們來看到原住民從1895年開始的殖民統治台灣對原住民族來講那同年的10月31號他是更以"},{"start":3146.426,"end":3164.312,"text":"更以翻地無阻地為由強行沒收了原住民世代傳承的土地因此我們的族人就失去了家園被迫離開祖靈的土地淪為社會邊緣人更令人痛心的是這套殖民體制在戰後不僅僅沒有終止反而被國民政府接續沿用"},{"start":3164.972,"end":3192.521,"text":"而原住民族持續就遭到壓迫跟剝奪在歷史上原住民族是從來沒有被沉默的反抗的火焰也沒有熄滅過我們從牡丹社事件大港孔事件嘉里丸事件南莊事件大報社事件大科坎事件李棟山事件七角川事件太魯閣事件大分事件等等我們每一次的反抗都是我們的族人用生命對抗"},{"start":3193.041,"end":3218.486,"text":"殖民政府說不的見證那麼其中1914年的太魯閣事件是特別重要的那族人在6月26號重創了總督佐久堅佐馬泰然後重挫了殖民統治的信心這也象徵了原住民族捍衛家園跟尊嚴的勝利的時刻這不僅僅是一場戰役更是原住民族反殖民意志的集體記憶"},{"start":3220.146,"end":3244.272,"text":"因此我們就主張每年的6月26號定為原住民族的抵抗日這不僅僅只是紀念一場戰爭更是讓全國人民能夠正視這一段歷史記住日本曾經殖民台灣壓迫原住民族不僅僅壓迫原住民族也害民族也壓迫然後也記住反殖民也殖民的重要性那麼殖民這段時間應該稱為日據而非日"},{"start":3247.493,"end":3265.112,"text":"因為現在我們連教科書上面都寫日誌我認為這是不對的因為這是殖民跟被殖民的一個思考看你是要站在哪個角度上來原住民主抵抗日讓我們共同記住的是這個土地曾經有人用血跟生命"},{"start":3265.512,"end":3288.274,"text":"守護他那一份對自由跟尊嚴的捍衛是我們共同的歷史是不可以抹去的記憶這不僅僅只是原住民族的歷史更是全體台灣人民應該共同記得的一天所以呢我認為在第四條這邊這個紀念日要放假我認為他不僅僅是放假而已他是要讓全國的"},{"start":3292.416,"end":3310.121,"text":"這個 呃 這個 人民能夠記住這一天所以我是非常堅持必須在第四條裡面放入這個原住民族的抵抗日以上 謝謝所以就希望這一天變成國定假日嘛 對不對好 那高經委員堅持嘛 對不對好 鄭先生 委員請這個原住民族日可以不放假"},{"start":3320.646,"end":3347.559,"text":"但是這個原住民主抵抗日如果相較於這個現行的條文現行的辦法二八事件和平紀念日一個事件放假我們都支持那原住民主的抵抗日剛高津樹沒講了很多十幾個"},{"start":3349.896,"end":3350.098,"text":"十幾個事件"},{"start":3352.984,"end":3381.133,"text":"我們為了保護臺灣保護保護我們的部落有十幾個事件所以如果我們現在又加了這個古寧陀大大節紀念日光復光復節然後這個和平紀念日原來就有的這個部分鄉行之下會更需要了啊那個那個原住民主日可以不用放假了啊是這樣以上謝謝"},{"start":3385.307,"end":3394.962,"text":"好 所以我們高進委員 鄭天才委員原住民委員的意見大概就是說 抵抗日要放假啦好 這是比較堅守民眾黨黨團針對假日你們是只有堅持移民日對不對"},{"start":3398.701,"end":3425.968,"text":"對我知道移民是在第六條好那我們就第六條的時候再來講好吧那看起來這一條也沒有共識好不好就繼續保留我們往下一條走下一條比較有機會啦這個第五條是節日啦節日的時候在委員會討論的時候其實算相對順利一點的請大家參照這一本的最這個委員會的初步審查結果啦最左邊這一欄第六頁開始然後一路往下看"},{"start":3428.21,"end":3447.782,"text":"這個應該比較沒有爭議啦上次我們討論就是那個佛陀誕辰紀念日嘛應該比較像節日嘛而不是紀念日所以把它移過來這裡嘛對不對然後還有大家提案有略為增加還有民眾黨比較在乎的這個12月18的移民日好都會把它放進來那節日的部分我們有沒有機會至少在今天達成有一條的公式請問大家意見好沒關係可以看一下沒問題"},{"start":3462.258,"end":3474.581,"text":"就紀念日OK嗎對啊我們是每一件就讓大家紀念日對啊放進來紀念日應該是沒有很大的問題每一個族群或每一個宗教他尊重啊他們會去辦慶典就紀念節"},{"start":3495.857,"end":3505.705,"text":"好 沒意見就OK吧好 我先問國民黨黨人這邊沒有意見民眾黨黨人這裡沒有意見好那我們再等一下沒有關係反正協商大家充分表達我們都尊重"},{"start":3522.598,"end":3543.515,"text":"對 最左邊 就是初步審查版本啦因為我覺得大家沒有意見 這條就沒有啦 你前面保留 因為大家意見不同就是保留這幾條繼續往下送啊到下一階段的協商來處理嘛好 但是我們當然希望可以盡量的達成共識讓後面的速度加快嘛所以這一條比較沒有爭議的 希望大家可以通過啦問一下 沒關係啦"},{"start":3553.598,"end":3578.909,"text":"沒有堅持啊後來沒堅持啊對啊對啊沒有堅持啊都可以啊都可以我們覺得做紀念是沒差但是他們他來反對為什麼反對為什麼反對為什麼他們就是說什麼宗教什麼宗教都放進來紀念"},{"start":3583.501,"end":3600.34,"text":"主席雖然我不是內政委員會的委員可是如果我們把這一條攤開來看他其實會掛一漏萬例如說光是醫事人員好了我們現在有護理師跟國際醫師可是在台灣的相關法規範當中醫事人員其實不是只有這兩類"},{"start":3601.741,"end":3628.02,"text":"還有一堆的醫事人員包含我們所熟悉的語言治療師啊藥師啊 驗光師這些也都是醫事人員那我只是舉其中一個例子並不是說我要爭取這些事情而是這個版本我認為還是要保留是因為它真的有掛一漏萬的問題啦那如果我們把更多職業類別都含括進去然後把各式各樣的宗教傾向所在意的日子也都放進去那基本上現在這個條文其實是不合格的啦好 謝謝"},{"start":3630.565,"end":3654.935,"text":"好 謝謝陳培宇委員其實針對所謂的掛一漏萬其實之前兩次在委員會內部的審查的時候大家已經盡量來做討論其實不外乎就是盡量的尋求共識因為這一款的最後一點29點也有講其他由中央目的事業主管機關核定之日所以其實也沒有漏萬的問題其實該可以都可以民進黨黨團確定至少在今天達成一兩條的共識嗎你們還是堅持要保留嗎"},{"start":3658.886,"end":3684.611,"text":"好 張宏祿稍微辛苦了 無奈地點了頭啊好 那我們 這是第五條嘛對不對第五條一樣保留來 第六條是談節日的放假好 哪幾些節日應該放假這我想這個國民黨的版本其實我們在委員會審查的時候已經講得非常清楚啦該講的也都講得差不多了那現在開放大家有沒有其他補充或者是要新增等等的 有沒有意見"},{"start":3691.849,"end":3713.924,"text":"民眾黨我再幫民眾黨補充一下因為剛剛前面講就是講我們的移民日是放在節日裡面嘛那民眾黨現在是堅持移民日也要放假嘛對不對所以會出現一點點小的分歧是嗎你們今天也是堅持嗎好堅持好那我們就保留吧怎麼辦呢所以我剛才講嘛唯一有機會就是第五條"},{"start":3716.445,"end":3740.501,"text":"堅持要主席要幫我們把12月18號放進來這我們當然到最後就是協商處理嘛但是我提醒一下大家啦因為如果這個東西最後大家沒有共識就難免要表決啦所以還是跟各黨黨團的成員報告一下就是說盡量讓版本能夠做充分的整合來增加議事的效率好不好我們今天開這個的目的其實也是這樣那既然大家都很堅持我們就不要浪費太多時間好"},{"start":3742.878,"end":3760.214,"text":"第七條這條也蠻有機會的啊我們來看一下初步審查修正條文大家有沒有意見這就到底要不要掛國旗啦那之前有講說有些要降半旗的跟掛國旗有沒有衝突後來我們查了一下其實在上次委員會審查的時候也確定不會有衝突啦所以這條大家還有問題或意見嗎對啊"},{"start":3771.684,"end":3774.986,"text":"好 民眾黨沒有意見 高慶維沒有意見 國民黨黨團沒有意見嗎好 請民進黨黨團表達意見請上路委員好"},{"start":3800.123,"end":3820.814,"text":"其實就條文本身的內容我覺得是沒有特別的有問題但它的一開始的紀念日各機關學校應選掛國旗我們現在紀念日都還沒還沒有還保留這點大家可能要思考一下"},{"start":3825.12,"end":3842.987,"text":"所以你現在紀念日的部分因為其實相對來講大家貨有小的落差啦但是現在就看民進黨這邊有沒有要提紀念日的版本嘛然後你才會影響會不會需要懸掛國旗嘛以目前國民黨民眾黨跟原住民委員的版本都沒有衝突啦那我們是不是要不要再討論一下還是你們也要堅持保留"},{"start":3845.437,"end":3873.625,"text":"我的意思是說你前面的紀念日什麼什麼那些都保留了那你紀念日的那個還沒有的話你這樣子我覺得反正沒差啦保留因為第七條的條文並沒有這個紀念日並沒有把前面的條文的紀念日全部列進去沒有啦我們只是部分部分特別需要"},{"start":3874.352,"end":3896.71,"text":"啊認為需要去這個呃閒掛國企的部分啊把他這個列舉進去啊這個還是說認為這個有沒有列的若除非說沒有落啊落列了什麼或是或是這個哪一個不要啊除非是這樣啊就不然我是建議是不是能夠啊照這個來啊以上"},{"start":3898.789,"end":3927.984,"text":"好請那個陳昭志委員主席我覺得這題沒有問題啊因為我們第四項第四款裡面其他紀念日得一期性質舉行紀念活動就算我們紀念日最後最後不知道會變成有哪幾天那這裡已經有一條這樣的單書啦那這條沒有理由不同意啊不管最後是幾天啊總算有一條有共識的吧我還蠻認同這樣的說法好謝謝主席請廖偉強委員然後陳培育委員"},{"start":3929.543,"end":3953.926,"text":"對 我也認同喔除非是上面列到的什麼中華民國開國紀念日啊孔子丹城紀念日跟國慶日舉行紀念活動還有這個革命先烈紀念日舉行春季國殤喔如果這幾個大家是不想要有意見是不要它掛國旗的話我覺得這個才才要討論保留嘛那因為第三點就有這樣子寫了所以我是覺得這應該就應該就可以讓它過去了謝謝"},{"start":3955.647,"end":3978.587,"text":"好 請陳佩玉委員好 謝謝主席我想我覺得是每一個人對這個法條條文見解的不同如果按照這個寫法現在只寫了三個是表定的就是在這個法條裡面寫法是一定要掛國旗的可是如果我們不把前面的通盤考慮拿到後面一併來看那是不是到時候也要爭取其他的紀念要掛國旗的到時候是不是一併也要討論那既然都還沒有共識是不是就保留 謝謝"},{"start":3979.571,"end":4001.131,"text":"沒有啦這一點我跟培育委員說明一下因為他前面開宗明明寫紀念日各機關應懸掛國旗啦所以所有在上面通過的紀念日都要掛啦那這件事情其實在上次委員會討論的時候其實大家也都覺得既然都是有重大歷史意義的紀念日這本來就應該掛國旗啦所以我是覺得這兩件事情其實沒有直接的關聯啦我再問最後一次民進黨黨團確定要保留嗎請張國柱委員"},{"start":4007.219,"end":4032.692,"text":"我覺得掛國旗這個大家都沒有意見我們不用再講掛國旗的事情啦我剛講的是說紀念日我們都還沒有討論清楚所以我的意思是說如果大家要討論哪些唯一會出現這樣的狀況就是有一些紀念日紀念了然後不應該掛國旗的在場有人可以舉出這樣子的例子嗎然後他有沒有被正式提出各個版本裡面嘛"},{"start":4035.711,"end":4048.256,"text":"他不管有沒有確定其實都屬於紀念日的範圍只是幾天而已嘛對不對好"},{"start":4049.316,"end":4074.226,"text":"請陳珮媛基本上要不要保留當然是主席的權利那只是說民進黨團這邊都已經有提供出不同的看法跟見解那是不是我們還是希望可以保留因為既然沒有共識嘛既然還是在委員會協商階段嘛那大家都經歷過委員會協商當有旗艦就是保留我沒有權利直接裁啦黨團協商就是要大家簽字才算數嘛所以如果民進黨堅持的話那我們這一條就保留謝謝最後一條對不對"},{"start":4076.095,"end":4097.191,"text":"十三條 上路的時間 請問大家有意見嗎我們當然希望三讀了就上路啊目前在野黨的統一意見應該是這樣對不對最後一條 十三條十三條我們現在是希望用國民黨黨團提的修正動議本條立志公佈實行 最右邊"},{"start":4102.529,"end":4118.949,"text":"請陳佩玉委員好謝謝主席我可不可以請部會說明一下這個上路的時間他們會不會假設我們到時候真的被用粗暴的表決方法強行通過三讀之後強行通過三讀之後他們再立刻實施這件事情有沒有什麼困難好請內政部吳唐安次長"},{"start":4125.717,"end":4145.065,"text":"施行日期的部分在法例裡面如果要往前溯及的話當然是可以因為我們全國的作息都是在固定在隔年的1月1號施行也就是下一年度開始之後所有的紀念或節日的話統一是這樣來做處理"},{"start":4146.405,"end":4167.84,"text":"那當然如果說我們會建議還是希望維持譬如現在今天是4月30號我舉例那接下來是5月1號那是不是從5月1號就要開始施行例如說有勞動節的部分那所以說我們依照體力的話也是配合行政院人事總署我們都是在前一年公佈下一年度的政府機關上班日的日曆表"},{"start":4168.36,"end":4193.565,"text":"那那個把它做統一之後 其實這樣會比較有穩定性這是個人的一個意見 謝謝好 謝謝吳唐安次長的說明這個不太可能5月1號啦雖然很多廣大的關心這次法案修法人都希望可以趕快上路但是因為協商冷凍期嘛所以無論如何5月1號之前是不可能刪讀的啦但是就是這樣子就已經少一天了 對不對所以我們才希望可以公佈日之後趕快施行啦好 請鄭天才委員"},{"start":4198.843,"end":4222.795,"text":"我們今天訂的這個是新的法例新的法例我們如果參考紀念日及節日實施辦法第一次的發佈實施日及就是發佈日施行發佈日施行所以這個部分這個其實不是問題"},{"start":4224.424,"end":4253.343,"text":"本辦法自發佈日實行它也不是1月1號實行發佈啊也不是12月31號發佈的所以這個不是問題以上好 謝謝我們鄭天才委員的補充從法理的角度當然是可以的啦當然就是執行上面當然會給行政機關造成一點點多一點點的工作負擔但我希望大家好好權衡一下這件事情嘛大家今天去提節日與今天日實施條例其實核心的目標是要降低台灣老公的工時要多幾天的國定假日"},{"start":4253.883,"end":4272.228,"text":"在這個可以創造出來降低國定夏日的效益跟相對付出的行政成本之間我們認為這是這個立刻上路我認為是很有正當性來請廖偉強委員對我也表達認同我覺得應該是要盡快的讓它修過上路因為簡單來講我們在未還委員會也常常在檢討我們勞工今年已經到達2035個小時"},{"start":4275.309,"end":4294.137,"text":"是亞洲第二高是非常嚴重的問題所以我想所有的勞工都希望或是我們國人都希望這可以通過之後儘速實施所以依照我的角度來講我當然也是希望這個主張未來的方向當然應該是朝擴增休假合力補假尊重"},{"start":4294.757,"end":4308.428,"text":"族群文化假日的需求邁進但是同時我也是希望說儘快能夠落實增加假日所以我也支持最終我們本黨團的這個共識的版本希望可以儘速通過之後就可以實施 謝謝好 民進黨黨團最後還有補充什麼嗎因為我覺得還蠻清楚的"},{"start":4315.834,"end":4333.911,"text":"就希望尊重行政機關所以希望保留好不好好很遺憾我們今天經過了一輪的討論其實我要跟我一定要再次在這個地方跟大家報告就這一次的審查我們開過公聽會做過詢答針對題目的內容做過完整的大體討論然後還經過兩次的主調協商其實"},{"start":4337.214,"end":4355.747,"text":"認真講大家都盡力了今天是第一次的朝野黨團協商那接下來我們就送院長協商但是這個並沒有很粗暴啦我們都盡量讓大家發表意見也盡量試著要達成共識我相信大家都看在眼裡好我們現在還有一個附帶決議高金素梅委員所提的附帶決議大家桌上有嗎我們請宣讀一下"},{"start":4362.119,"end":4380.067,"text":"纪念日与节日的放假规范攸关人民日常生活工商运作及政府机关服务一中央法规标准法第五条属关系人民权利义务者应以法律定制的事项显示其法治化的重要性目前相关权益义务以明文入法各主管机关也应配合立法制定完善的配套措施"},{"start":4380.487,"end":4410.127,"text":"因此行政院人事行政总处自本法实行后于政府机关行事例中注明各项法定纪念日与节日让公务运作及民众生活有所依循另请国防部劳动部及原住民族委员会等相关权责机关熟悉并尊重原住民族碎石记忆的法定规范并向所属员工及国人清楚说明相关权益并纳入请休假的标准作业流程内确保族人在文化与制度上皆获得实质保障提案人委员高金素美等三人宣布完毕"},{"start":4411.867,"end":4439.195,"text":"好請問這樣子的附帶決議大家有意見嗎可以請陳佩玉委員因為如果我們剛這麼多條文都保留那這個在內政委員會的慣例是不是也都是一併保留還是說內政委員會比較特別的慣例是對因為條文沒有都沒有通過啊所以要怎麼附帶決議通常附帶決議是結合相關通過大家都沒有意義要送出去的條文嘛對不對"},{"start":4440.936,"end":4448.555,"text":"高菁委員我們就病童一起處理吧病童一起處理如果提案委員認為病童一起處理那我們就病童一起就保留可以嗎好 謝謝好"},{"start":4450.72,"end":4476.758,"text":"現在宣讀協商結論第一保留條文第三條第四條第五條第六條第七條第十三條以及要送院長召集協商第二保留附帶決議一項我們一樣是送院長協商第三其餘均照審查會審查結果通過第四條號及條文中引述之條號授權議事人員整理請問今天協商結論大家有問題嗎沒有那我們今天反正也沒共識也不用簽字嘛對不對"},{"start":4477.711,"end":4479.173,"text":"好 那我們就交院長協商來做處理好 謝謝 散會"}]}},{"id":"16633","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16633","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd001fad9b8cd413af1097cfa4245e4149f7d7f547ae197440ac07b5aa0c69f7b65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-30T08:30:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T14:24:00+08:00","duration":21223,"影片長度":"05:53:43","委員發言時間":"08:30:17 - 14:24:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1785.9290937500002,"end":1787.9034687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1787.9372187500003,"end":1788.0384687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1788.4940937500003,"end":1789.0172187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1792.6959687500002,"end":1796.8809687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1797.2690937500001,"end":1801.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1803.6309687500002,"end":1813.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1814.1440937500001,"end":1822.7503437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1823.2059687500002,"end":1842.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1843.2534687500001,"end":1846.5272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1846.7634687500001,"end":1852.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1853.49659375,"end":1860.4997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1860.6009687500002,"end":1865.9165937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1867.0640937500002,"end":1869.2240937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1869.4603437500002,"end":1871.5528437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1871.7553437500003,"end":1874.3878437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1875.8897187500002,"end":1879.7372187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1880.9353437500001,"end":1884.1078437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1885.42409375,"end":1889.1365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1890.2840937500002,"end":1891.2290937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1891.5159687500002,"end":1892.9672187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1895.4984687500003,"end":1897.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1901.5565937500003,"end":1906.3997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1908.32346875,"end":1909.2684687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1909.58909375,"end":1910.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1911.29346875,"end":1912.9303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1914.1959687500002,"end":1915.2928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1916.0184687500002,"end":1919.5453437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1920.6422187500002,"end":1925.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1929.6534687500002,"end":1932.9103437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1935.2897187500002,"end":1939.0865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1940.5209687500003,"end":1941.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1941.8540937500002,"end":1944.8747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1947.0853437500002,"end":1948.5365937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1948.9415937500003,"end":1950.7472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1951.6922187500002,"end":1952.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1952.6878437500002,"end":1954.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1956.0290937500001,"end":1959.3197187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1961.6990937500002,"end":1979.2997187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1980.19409375,"end":1987.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1990.4878437500001,"end":1990.7072187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1992.3778437500002,"end":1997.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1998.19971875,"end":2008.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2008.9322187500002,"end":2011.9528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2012.5097187500003,"end":2014.4334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2014.9565937500001,"end":2015.8847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2016.5259687500002,"end":2018.5003437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2018.9390937500002,"end":2026.6509687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2027.0559687500001,"end":2039.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2040.23534375,"end":2042.5134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2043.3740937500002,"end":2045.9390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2046.6309687500002,"end":2047.1540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2047.2384687500003,"end":2053.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2054.1572187500005,"end":2058.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2059.3209687500002,"end":2061.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2062.30784375,"end":2070.6778437499997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2071.0322187500005,"end":2074.0865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2074.42409375,"end":2078.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2079.25034375,"end":2087.1309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2088.58221875,"end":2107.2459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2107.9209687500006,"end":2130.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2131.19159375,"end":2147.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2148.4040937500004,"end":2157.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2159.3728437500004,"end":2173.4803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2182.8122187500003,"end":2226.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2226.97409375,"end":2244.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2245.40159375,"end":2253.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2254.4128437500003,"end":2290.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2292.1959687500002,"end":2296.8028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2297.6465937500006,"end":2317.8797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2318.47034375,"end":2321.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2321.6259687500005,"end":2325.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2326.4522187500006,"end":2343.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2343.51284375,"end":2348.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2349.0478437500005,"end":2351.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2352.5240937500002,"end":2362.3115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2362.4803437500004,"end":2364.1172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2364.60659375,"end":2368.1503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2368.48784375,"end":2371.5084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2371.86284375,"end":2378.7647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2379.13596875,"end":2381.7009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2382.1903437500005,"end":2384.1309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2384.80596875,"end":2395.2178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2395.90971875,"end":2397.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2397.4959687500004,"end":2402.0690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2402.3728437500004,"end":2405.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2405.66346875,"end":2408.2284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2408.3972187500003,"end":2411.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2412.2615937500004,"end":2415.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2415.95721875,"end":2416.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2417.12159375,"end":2417.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2417.8134687500005,"end":2420.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2420.47971875,"end":2421.0703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2421.3740937500006,"end":2422.3190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2422.65659375,"end":2424.2597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2424.6309687500006,"end":2427.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2427.5165937500005,"end":2428.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2429.10284375,"end":2430.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2431.87034375,"end":2435.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2436.1397187500006,"end":2439.8184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2440.98284375,"end":2447.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2448.3740937500006,"end":2453.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2453.57159375,"end":2457.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2457.8240937500004,"end":2459.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2460.4734687500004,"end":2464.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2465.7722187500003,"end":2474.3953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2474.4459687500002,"end":2479.9303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2480.21721875,"end":2493.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2493.70034375,"end":2498.7965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2499.6403437500003,"end":2503.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2504.01096875,"end":2510.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2512.3134687500005,"end":2519.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2520.64971875,"end":2520.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2521.5272187500004,"end":2521.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2522.35409375,"end":2523.5690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2523.7715937500006,"end":2525.5603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2525.9147187500002,"end":2526.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2527.1297187500004,"end":2529.2390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2529.6103437500005,"end":2533.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2534.4197187500004,"end":2538.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2539.3809687500006,"end":2542.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2542.8740937500006,"end":2544.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2544.6797187500006,"end":2545.9284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2546.40096875,"end":2547.2109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2547.88596875,"end":2548.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2548.67909375,"end":2549.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2550.0965937500005,"end":2554.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2555.2772187500004,"end":2563.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2564.84534375,"end":2567.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2568.0009687500005,"end":2575.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2575.2909687500005,"end":2581.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2581.87221875,"end":2591.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2591.87909375,"end":2594.6465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2595.5409687500005,"end":2603.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2603.69159375,"end":2611.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2612.33159375,"end":2615.3522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2615.75721875,"end":2617.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2617.79909375,"end":2619.7734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2620.44846875,"end":2624.5997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2624.8190937500003,"end":2629.1222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2629.6453437500004,"end":2632.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2632.9697187500005,"end":2633.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2634.06659375,"end":2636.5134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2636.7497187500003,"end":2637.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2638.04909375,"end":2652.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2653.11846875,"end":2658.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2655.04221875,"end":2655.0759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2655.0759687500004,"end":2655.0928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2655.22784375,"end":2655.3122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2658.53534375,"end":2659.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2659.88534375,"end":2661.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2661.8428437500006,"end":2663.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2664.20534375,"end":2664.7959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2665.35284375,"end":2666.8378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2667.83346875,"end":2671.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2671.9678437500006,"end":2675.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2675.6297187500004,"end":2676.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2677.3340937500006,"end":2687.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2688.3028437500006,"end":2694.6647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2694.69846875,"end":2706.3253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2706.7809687500003,"end":2714.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2714.96534375,"end":2717.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2717.47971875,"end":2724.6853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2726.4909687500003,"end":2727.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2728.2628437500007,"end":2729.6803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2730.0515937500004,"end":2730.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2730.7940937500007,"end":2732.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2732.7684687500005,"end":2734.7090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2735.5528437500006,"end":2744.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2745.2897187500002,"end":2751.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2752.0059687500006,"end":2753.6765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2753.9297187500006,"end":2761.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2762.0128437500007,"end":2764.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2765.1853437500004,"end":2772.3740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2772.6609687500004,"end":2775.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2775.88409375,"end":2778.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2778.41534375,"end":2780.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2781.25034375,"end":2781.8409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2782.81971875,"end":2784.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2784.9628437500005,"end":2790.2615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2790.2615937500004,"end":2790.3797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2790.5147187500006,"end":2791.2740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2791.2740937500002,"end":2791.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2792.45534375,"end":2801.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2804.6559687500003,"end":2812.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2821.1765937500004,"end":2821.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2822.17221875,"end":2823.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2823.2184687500003,"end":2824.7878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2825.4122187500006,"end":2834.0690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2835.0478437500005,"end":2844.2784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2844.88596875,"end":2847.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2848.2947187500004,"end":2853.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2853.4753437500003,"end":2879.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2879.6484687500006,"end":2880.1209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2881.30221875,"end":2887.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2888.4403437500005,"end":2895.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2895.64596875,"end":2896.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2896.72596875,"end":2906.5134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2906.85096875,"end":2913.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2914.0397187500002,"end":2917.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2917.44846875,"end":2922.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2922.9665937500004,"end":2931.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2931.7078437500004,"end":2932.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2932.95659375,"end":2933.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2935.06596875,"end":2938.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2938.7109687500006,"end":2946.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2946.8278437500003,"end":2948.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2949.20721875,"end":2951.6709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2952.22784375,"end":2954.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2955.1640937500006,"end":2959.4503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2959.8047187500006,"end":2961.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2961.8972187500003,"end":2963.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2963.51721875,"end":2965.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2965.62659375,"end":2966.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2966.58846875,"end":2969.9803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2970.62159375,"end":2975.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2975.32971875,"end":2986.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2987.07471875,"end":2990.1628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2990.55096875,"end":2993.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2993.45346875,"end":2996.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2997.1659687500005,"end":2999.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3000.1865937500006,"end":3000.7940937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3000.99659375,"end":3006.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3006.46409375,"end":3007.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3007.86471875,"end":3009.6365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3010.1934687500006,"end":3011.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3011.7628437500007,"end":3013.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3014.05784375,"end":3017.7028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3018.3778437500005,"end":3019.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3019.49159375,"end":3028.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3029.1609687500004,"end":3031.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3032.45159375,"end":3033.8522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3034.20659375,"end":3034.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3035.2528437500005,"end":3036.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3036.5859687500006,"end":3048.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3049.19159375,"end":3051.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3051.90846875,"end":3056.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3056.86971875,"end":3063.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3063.8728437500004,"end":3065.0709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3065.7965937500003,"end":3066.2859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3067.0115937500004,"end":3071.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3072.47909375,"end":3074.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3074.9765937500006,"end":3075.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3076.4109687500004,"end":3076.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3077.5078437500006,"end":3084.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3086.09721875,"end":3091.4803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3092.35784375,"end":3093.1172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3093.4040937500004,"end":3098.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3098.6015937500006,"end":3108.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3109.77284375,"end":3111.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3111.81471875,"end":3113.7890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3114.0253437500005,"end":3120.7078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3121.41659375,"end":3122.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3122.66534375,"end":3124.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3124.53846875,"end":3127.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3127.72784375,"end":3128.6053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3129.2803437500006,"end":3130.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3130.2928437500004,"end":3132.7734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3133.21221875,"end":3135.5915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3136.11471875,"end":3138.7303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3139.0340937500005,"end":3142.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3143.45534375,"end":3145.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3145.4128437500003,"end":3146.4590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3146.72909375,"end":3147.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3147.9440937500003,"end":3151.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3152.1797187500006,"end":3156.4490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3156.9890937500004,"end":3157.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3158.1365937500004,"end":3160.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3160.4315937500005,"end":3162.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3163.18221875,"end":3170.3709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3171.01221875,"end":3173.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3173.6784687500003,"end":3175.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3175.46721875,"end":3185.6765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3187.22909375,"end":3188.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3188.3934687500005,"end":3191.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3191.86971875,"end":3196.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3196.4259687500007,"end":3197.1178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3197.70846875,"end":3201.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3202.21409375,"end":3204.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3204.4922187500006,"end":3210.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3211.3603437500005,"end":3211.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3212.5078437500006,"end":3213.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3213.79034375,"end":3215.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3215.5790937500005,"end":3219.6797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3220.0509687500007,"end":3231.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3232.42034375,"end":3232.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3234.1247187500003,"end":3237.0778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3237.3309687500005,"end":3239.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3240.0478437500005,"end":3240.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3241.2628437500007,"end":3242.4440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3242.84909375,"end":3246.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3248.08034375,"end":3248.5359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3248.8565937500007,"end":3249.5822187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3250.2234687500004,"end":3250.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3251.23596875,"end":3252.5353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3252.7040937500005,"end":3256.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3256.6865937500006,"end":3259.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3260.87159375,"end":3262.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3263.52096875,"end":3285.7959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3285.7959687500006,"end":3285.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3286.96034375,"end":3286.9772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3286.9772187500002,"end":3291.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3292.0397187500002,"end":3297.2540937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3315.1247187500003,"end":3332.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3333.0459687500006,"end":3346.5459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3346.7315937500007,"end":3357.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3359.0165937500005,"end":3363.5390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3364.0622187500003,"end":3367.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3368.1122187500005,"end":3378.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3379.1315937500003,"end":3390.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3391.1972187500005,"end":3398.1159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3398.7740937500002,"end":3402.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":3402.85784375,"end":3403.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3404.3428437500006,"end":3405.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3408.2578437500006,"end":3413.2022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3413.3203437500006,"end":3418.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3418.95659375,"end":3420.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3421.2009687500004,"end":3425.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3426.0778437500003,"end":3430.9884687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3431.35971875,"end":3432.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3433.89096875,"end":3445.2478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3445.77096875,"end":3449.3484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3449.56784375,"end":3472.0622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3472.83846875,"end":3483.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3484.6172187500006,"end":3485.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3486.13596875,"end":3498.3534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3499.23096875,"end":3500.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3500.8340937500006,"end":3509.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3509.65971875,"end":3519.7340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3520.6622187500006,"end":3526.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3527.4628437500005,"end":3531.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3531.9178437500004,"end":3534.6347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3534.6853437500004,"end":3534.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3535.3603437500005,"end":3544.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3545.21534375,"end":3560.4197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3561.1453437500004,"end":3563.7272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3565.27971875,"end":3571.7597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3572.50221875,"end":3583.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3584.44971875,"end":3593.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3593.91659375,"end":3598.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3599.3165937500007,"end":3609.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3610.1503437500005,"end":3616.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3617.0859687500006,"end":3628.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3629.2697187500007,"end":3638.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3639.41159375,"end":3647.8659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3648.6759687500007,"end":3649.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3650.0428437500004,"end":3653.5865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3654.53159375,"end":3656.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3656.64096875,"end":3657.2147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3657.55221875,"end":3664.5553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3664.8253437500007,"end":3671.1534687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3671.71034375,"end":3680.5865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3680.80596875,"end":3684.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3684.5859687500006,"end":3686.3409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3688.3322187500007,"end":3691.7409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3692.2472187500007,"end":3693.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3693.8165937500007,"end":3694.4578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3694.6940937500003,"end":3696.6347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3697.2422187500006,"end":3703.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3704.4140937500006,"end":3712.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3713.84721875,"end":3728.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3729.0009687500005,"end":3737.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3739.02471875,"end":3741.5897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3747.29346875,"end":3747.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3747.9684687500003,"end":3756.9797187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3757.35096875,"end":3760.4728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3760.65846875,"end":3774.0740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3774.41159375,"end":3787.5740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3794.0203437500004,"end":3797.7497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3797.07471875,"end":3798.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3798.8465937500005,"end":3804.6853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3802.7615937500004,"end":3807.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3807.6384687500004,"end":3824.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3825.2390937500004,"end":3837.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3838.1990937500004,"end":3845.0672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3846.1472187500003,"end":3854.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3853.8084687500004,"end":3856.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3857.1834687500004,"end":3876.7078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3878.0578437500008,"end":3884.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3884.5040937500007,"end":3889.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3887.9128437500003,"end":3891.7772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3891.2540937500007,"end":3896.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3893.9034687500007,"end":3894.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3896.4347187500007,"end":3904.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3903.97784375,"end":3913.3434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3908.63534375,"end":3908.7028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3913.7147187500004,"end":3922.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3919.77284375,"end":3920.0934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3921.5615937500006,"end":3922.1015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3922.2197187500005,"end":3922.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3922.23659375,"end":3922.3378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3922.3378437500005,"end":3922.4053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3922.4053437500006,"end":3922.5065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3922.5065937500003,"end":3922.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3924.10971875,"end":3924.9365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3925.9997187500003,"end":3953.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3953.35409375,"end":3953.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3953.9784687500005,"end":3960.0703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3960.50909375,"end":3968.7609687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3968.5584687500004,"end":3971.6465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3971.7478437500004,"end":3973.8740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3973.8740937500006,"end":3973.9415937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3973.9415937500007,"end":3974.5828437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3974.5828437500004,"end":3986.2097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3974.5997187500006,"end":3977.0128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3981.0290937500004,"end":3983.6784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3984.50534375,"end":3984.9440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3986.2097187500003,"end":3986.2940937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3986.2940937500007,"end":3986.4628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3986.4628437500005,"end":3989.8378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3986.9015937500008,"end":3987.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3990.5128437500007,"end":4000.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4000.60409375,"end":4005.5147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4006.0040937500007,"end":4006.6959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4007.2022187500006,"end":4007.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4009.9022187500004,"end":4023.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4021.37721875,"end":4025.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4025.0897187500004,"end":4028.5153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4025.8828437500006,"end":4030.2703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4029.27471875,"end":4030.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4030.2703437500004,"end":4044.9347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4043.7703437500004,"end":4049.5753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4050.3515937500006,"end":4052.8828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4050.36846875,"end":4051.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4051.9884687500007,"end":4052.5622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4052.8828437500006,"end":4054.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4052.91659375,"end":4054.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4054.4353437500004,"end":4054.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4054.48596875,"end":4054.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4055.1103437500005,"end":4059.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4057.48971875,"end":4068.7115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4066.0622187500003,"end":4068.7115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4068.7115937500002,"end":4070.4159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4071.05721875,"end":4087.1559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":4087.1559687500003,"end":4087.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4087.44284375,"end":4097.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4098.47909375,"end":4099.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4100.11596875,"end":4111.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4101.14534375,"end":4102.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4102.731593750001,"end":4103.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4103.03534375,"end":4105.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4111.2197187500005,"end":4121.749718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4121.46284375,"end":4126.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4124.68596875,"end":4129.394093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4129.394093749999,"end":4130.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4129.41096875,"end":4129.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4131.75659375,"end":4143.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4143.99096875,"end":4144.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4144.395968750001,"end":4167.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4168.47659375,"end":4180.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4182.128468749999,"end":4182.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4182.14534375,"end":4182.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4182.16221875,"end":4189.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4182.179093750001,"end":4182.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4188.99659375,"end":4189.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4190.5322187500005,"end":4190.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4190.65034375,"end":4190.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4190.717843750001,"end":4190.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4190.73471875,"end":4190.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4190.7684687500005,"end":4192.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4193.45159375,"end":4194.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4194.700343750001,"end":4198.952843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4199.30721875,"end":4200.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4200.505343750001,"end":4205.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4206.462218750001,"end":4209.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4209.8709687499995,"end":4215.085343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4216.823468750001,"end":4226.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4228.3153437500005,"end":4234.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4234.812218749999,"end":4240.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4240.78596875,"end":4241.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4241.59596875,"end":4245.780968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4247.95784375,"end":4248.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4250.472218749999,"end":4252.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4253.69534375,"end":4255.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4256.800343749999,"end":4266.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4266.57096875,"end":4267.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4268.59596875,"end":4268.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4269.47346875,"end":4270.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4271.430968750001,"end":4308.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4309.51784375,"end":4311.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4312.167218750001,"end":4316.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4315.440968749999,"end":4324.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4325.21159375,"end":4339.065968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4339.724093750001,"end":4341.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4341.71534375,"end":4347.267218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4348.3134687500005,"end":4366.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":4358.92784375,"end":4359.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4359.34971875,"end":4359.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4361.17221875,"end":4361.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4366.79159375,"end":4376.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4376.899718750001,"end":4377.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4377.929093750001,"end":4378.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":4379.144093749999,"end":4379.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4379.245343750001,"end":4379.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":4379.380343750001,"end":4379.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4379.667218750001,"end":4385.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4386.53534375,"end":4390.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4390.51784375,"end":4390.534718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4390.534718749999,"end":4390.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4390.55159375,"end":4390.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4390.821593750001,"end":4401.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4401.503468749999,"end":4405.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4406.279093749999,"end":4407.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4407.81471875,"end":4418.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4418.3447187500005,"end":4441.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4439.995343750001,"end":4441.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4441.37909375,"end":4441.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4441.42971875,"end":4441.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4441.446593750001,"end":4441.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4441.59846875,"end":4443.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4442.239718750001,"end":4453.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4454.710343750001,"end":4456.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4456.954718749999,"end":4464.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4465.122218750001,"end":4465.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4465.257218750001,"end":4470.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4465.32471875,"end":4465.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4470.10034375,"end":4470.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4470.6572187500005,"end":4472.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4472.02409375,"end":4472.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4472.901593750001,"end":4472.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4472.96909375,"end":4473.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4473.0028437500005,"end":4473.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4473.036593750001,"end":4483.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4473.222218749999,"end":4473.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4481.575343750001,"end":4485.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4484.02221875,"end":4485.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4486.671593749999,"end":4501.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4502.010968750001,"end":4502.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4502.68596875,"end":4508.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4508.794718749999,"end":4511.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4511.68034375,"end":4512.085343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4512.085343750001,"end":4520.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4520.72534375,"end":4524.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4524.792218750001,"end":4525.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4525.028468750001,"end":4526.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4526.850968750001,"end":4529.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4529.989718750001,"end":4532.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4533.415343750001,"end":4539.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4539.49034375,"end":4541.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4541.295968750001,"end":4541.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4542.359093749999,"end":4543.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4543.50659375,"end":4544.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4544.4853437500005,"end":4547.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4547.843468749999,"end":4550.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4551.420968750001,"end":4552.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4553.12534375,"end":4554.593468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4553.63159375,"end":4556.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4555.960343750001,"end":4556.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4556.92221875,"end":4557.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4557.732218749999,"end":4575.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4575.82221875,"end":4581.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4582.36971875,"end":4582.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4583.145968750001,"end":4583.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4583.50034375,"end":4590.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4590.030968749999,"end":4610.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4608.1884687500005,"end":4608.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4608.6103437500005,"end":4608.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4610.82096875,"end":4632.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4612.87971875,"end":4613.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":4613.11596875,"end":4613.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4613.21721875,"end":4613.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4632.52221875,"end":4638.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4638.52971875,"end":4642.343468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4641.786593750001,"end":4645.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4642.967843750001,"end":4655.050343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4649.26221875,"end":4649.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":4649.59971875,"end":4649.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4654.999718749999,"end":4655.657843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4655.30346875,"end":4660.534718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4661.6990937499995,"end":4679.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4680.05909375,"end":4694.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":4694.622218750001,"end":4694.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4694.706593749999,"end":4700.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4700.54534375,"end":4706.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4706.02971875,"end":4710.923468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4711.42971875,"end":4715.327843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4714.38284375,"end":4718.280968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":4718.567843750001,"end":4718.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4718.82096875,"end":4722.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":4721.9090937500005,"end":4722.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4722.651593750001,"end":4728.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4727.68034375,"end":4728.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4728.96284375,"end":4729.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4729.013468749999,"end":4730.329718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4729.6209687499995,"end":4730.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4730.329718749999,"end":4730.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4730.97096875,"end":4736.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4733.4853437500005,"end":4733.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4734.02534375,"end":4735.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4736.97846875,"end":4737.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4737.029093749999,"end":4737.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4737.06284375,"end":4741.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4737.38346875,"end":4737.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4737.43409375,"end":4737.501593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4737.687218749999,"end":4738.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4741.298468749999,"end":4744.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4744.6903437500005,"end":4747.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4747.05284375,"end":4752.689093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4751.389718750001,"end":4751.423468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4751.423468749999,"end":4751.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4752.95909375,"end":4757.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4765.9022187499995,"end":4768.298468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4768.61909375,"end":4777.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4768.686593750001,"end":4768.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":4768.70346875,"end":4771.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4771.0322187500005,"end":4771.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4775.419718749999,"end":4776.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4777.866593750001,"end":4777.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4777.967843750001,"end":4778.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4778.811593750001,"end":4778.845343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4778.845343749999,"end":4779.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4785.84846875,"end":4799.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":4796.31096875,"end":4796.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":4799.26409375,"end":4799.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4799.44971875,"end":4813.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4814.046593749999,"end":4833.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4833.72284375,"end":4847.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4847.96534375,"end":4851.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4852.3865937499995,"end":4855.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4856.31846875,"end":4874.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4875.134093750001,"end":4881.360968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4881.9178437499995,"end":4884.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":4884.972218750001,"end":4885.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4885.24221875,"end":4890.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4890.76034375,"end":4934.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4935.25971875,"end":4943.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4944.11909375,"end":4948.439093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4949.012843750001,"end":4951.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4951.66221875,"end":4959.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4960.200968749999,"end":4970.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4971.30471875,"end":4972.671593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4973.44784375,"end":4977.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4977.6834687499995,"end":4980.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4981.0584687499995,"end":4986.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4987.04909375,"end":4989.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4990.255343750001,"end":4990.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4991.4872187500005,"end":4992.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4993.208468750001,"end":4994.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4994.575343750001,"end":4995.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4996.634093750001,"end":4998.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4998.96284375,"end":5000.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5000.97096875,"end":5003.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5003.35034375,"end":5004.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5005.5947187500005,"end":5013.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5013.779093749999,"end":5021.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5021.760968750001,"end":5022.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5022.75659375,"end":5061.552218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5062.446593750001,"end":5062.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5063.104718750001,"end":5065.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5066.243468750001,"end":5069.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5069.44971875,"end":5089.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5089.42971875,"end":5097.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5090.3915937500005,"end":5090.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5093.81721875,"end":5095.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5095.825343750001,"end":5095.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5095.859093749999,"end":5096.2303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5097.732218749999,"end":5100.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5099.95971875,"end":5099.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5100.01034375,"end":5100.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5100.229718750001,"end":5107.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5102.288468750001,"end":5102.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5105.798468749999,"end":5105.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5105.83221875,"end":5112.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5113.020968750001,"end":5116.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5116.80096875,"end":5119.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5120.294093750001,"end":5126.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5126.92596875,"end":5127.735968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5127.95534375,"end":5130.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5130.77346875,"end":5132.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5132.62971875,"end":5140.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5139.970343749999,"end":5150.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5144.290343750001,"end":5144.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5151.175343750001,"end":5160.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5161.013468749999,"end":5161.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5161.04721875,"end":5176.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5176.47096875,"end":5203.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5204.888468749999,"end":5205.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5205.9178437499995,"end":5211.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5208.66846875,"end":5208.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5212.920968750001,"end":5234.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5225.374718749999,"end":5225.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5229.137843750001,"end":5229.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5230.960343750001,"end":5231.702843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5232.833468750001,"end":5238.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5238.94221875,"end":5241.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5241.76034375,"end":5244.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5244.7978437500005,"end":5250.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5251.24409375,"end":5252.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5252.2059687500005,"end":5259.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5259.4959687499995,"end":5275.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5275.03784375,"end":5275.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5275.66221875,"end":5275.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5275.999718749999,"end":5280.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5281.88909375,"end":5309.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5308.14659375,"end":5323.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5323.5028437500005,"end":5323.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5323.80659375,"end":5324.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5324.02596875,"end":5350.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5326.5740937499995,"end":5326.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5327.9072187500005,"end":5328.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5335.3153437500005,"end":5336.513468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5336.513468749999,"end":5336.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5339.2978437500005,"end":5339.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5340.68159375,"end":5340.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5340.698468750001,"end":5341.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5341.069718750001,"end":5341.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5350.41846875,"end":5350.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5350.51971875,"end":5350.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5350.60409375,"end":5350.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5350.78971875,"end":5351.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5351.68409375,"end":5352.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5353.169093750001,"end":5356.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5356.89846875,"end":5359.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5371.98471875,"end":5374.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5374.634093750001,"end":5376.220343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5385.180968750001,"end":5390.749718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5390.749718749999,"end":5391.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5391.1884687500005,"end":5393.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5393.6522187499995,"end":5397.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5395.79534375,"end":5395.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5397.58409375,"end":5399.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5400.267218749999,"end":5408.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5408.4178437499995,"end":5411.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5412.417218750001,"end":5415.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5416.36596875,"end":5417.327843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5417.665343750001,"end":5419.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5420.39909375,"end":5427.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5427.030968749999,"end":5430.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5433.91596875,"end":5440.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5440.85159375,"end":5457.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5457.86159375,"end":5459.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5460.10596875,"end":5462.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5462.02971875,"end":5473.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5463.1434687500005,"end":5463.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5472.49221875,"end":5477.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5474.2978437500005,"end":5474.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5478.16221875,"end":5480.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5481.132218750001,"end":5484.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5484.52409375,"end":5484.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5485.46909375,"end":5486.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5487.224093750001,"end":5488.439093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5488.89471875,"end":5492.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5493.315968750001,"end":5494.345343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5494.59846875,"end":5501.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5502.310343749999,"end":5503.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5505.48284375,"end":5507.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5507.64284375,"end":5507.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5508.09846875,"end":5509.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5510.140343749999,"end":5511.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5511.70971875,"end":5513.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5514.15659375,"end":5514.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5514.966593749999,"end":5515.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5516.08034375,"end":5519.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5520.315968750001,"end":5523.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5524.19721875,"end":5524.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5525.142218749999,"end":5526.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5526.99846875,"end":5531.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5531.807843750001,"end":5534.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5534.27159375,"end":5536.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5536.80284375,"end":5537.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5537.5790937500005,"end":5537.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5538.30471875,"end":5541.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5542.37159375,"end":5543.282843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5543.8397187499995,"end":5545.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5547.788468750001,"end":5548.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5548.109093749999,"end":5548.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5548.3622187500005,"end":5548.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5548.868468750001,"end":5550.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5550.62346875,"end":5553.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5553.49221875,"end":5555.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5555.87159375,"end":5557.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5557.862843750001,"end":5562.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5563.347218750001,"end":5565.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5566.31721875,"end":5567.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5566.6209687499995,"end":5577.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5577.690968750001,"end":5581.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5584.23846875,"end":5586.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5586.76971875,"end":5589.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5590.61721875,"end":5593.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5593.165343750001,"end":5594.751593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5595.89909375,"end":5596.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5598.092843750001,"end":5598.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5599.18971875,"end":5599.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5600.82659375,"end":5602.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5602.17659375,"end":5603.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5604.11721875,"end":5607.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5608.28534375,"end":5609.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5610.95159375,"end":5613.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5614.343468749999,"end":5617.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5618.241593750001,"end":5618.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5619.28784375,"end":5621.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5622.89909375,"end":5623.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5625.34596875,"end":5644.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5625.548468749999,"end":5626.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5632.770968750001,"end":5632.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5632.78784375,"end":5634.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5634.171593749999,"end":5634.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5638.89659375,"end":5640.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5644.22909375,"end":5659.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5652.44721875,"end":5652.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5653.341593749999,"end":5654.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5660.1590937500005,"end":5660.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5661.458468750001,"end":5668.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5669.609093749999,"end":5670.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5671.1278437500005,"end":5672.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5673.25409375,"end":5675.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5676.00471875,"end":5677.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5678.097218750001,"end":5679.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5679.362843750001,"end":5680.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5680.51034375,"end":5684.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5684.96534375,"end":5685.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5685.2353437500005,"end":5686.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5686.534718750001,"end":5696.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5694.39846875,"end":5696.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5697.030968749999,"end":5698.110968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5698.634093750001,"end":5699.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5700.62534375,"end":5702.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5702.295968750001,"end":5704.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5704.8778437500005,"end":5705.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5705.40096875,"end":5707.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":5705.4178437499995,"end":5705.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5707.965968750001,"end":5710.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5710.260968750001,"end":5710.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5710.93596875,"end":5712.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5714.31096875,"end":5714.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5715.10409375,"end":5720.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5719.08659375,"end":5719.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5719.10346875,"end":5719.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5720.97659375,"end":5722.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5722.69784375,"end":5725.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5726.292218750001,"end":5727.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5727.979718750001,"end":5730.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5730.25784375,"end":5731.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5731.97909375,"end":5733.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5733.5653437500005,"end":5736.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5737.32846875,"end":5739.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5740.51784375,"end":5741.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5742.10409375,"end":5743.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5744.50034375,"end":5745.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5746.10346875,"end":5747.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5748.4490937499995,"end":5749.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5749.545968750001,"end":5752.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5753.69721875,"end":5755.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5756.5322187500005,"end":5758.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5758.675343750001,"end":5760.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5761.9490937499995,"end":5763.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5764.19346875,"end":5767.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5768.20971875,"end":5769.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5770.437218749999,"end":5771.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5772.68159375,"end":5774.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5774.993468750001,"end":5778.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5779.718468749999,"end":5782.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5783.380343750001,"end":5787.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5787.970343749999,"end":5791.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5792.796593749999,"end":5793.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5794.298468749999,"end":5794.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5794.97346875,"end":5796.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5797.4540937500005,"end":5798.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5800.60971875,"end":5803.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5804.40659375,"end":5805.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5806.2459687499995,"end":5807.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5808.743468750001,"end":5809.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5809.89096875,"end":5813.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5813.991593750001,"end":5818.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5819.847218750001,"end":5821.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5822.07471875,"end":5824.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5824.65659375,"end":5825.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5826.175343750001,"end":5828.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5829.71909375,"end":5831.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5832.33471875,"end":5832.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5833.397843750001,"end":5834.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5834.03909375,"end":5834.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5836.6209687499995,"end":5837.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5837.937218749999,"end":5853.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5854.69409375,"end":5855.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5856.63471875,"end":5860.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5860.75221875,"end":5862.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5863.2665937500005,"end":5864.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5866.47284375,"end":5869.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5869.74659375,"end":5870.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5871.56909375,"end":5872.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5872.024718750001,"end":5872.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5873.796593749999,"end":5874.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5874.80909375,"end":5881.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5882.55471875,"end":5882.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5883.651593750001,"end":5884.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5885.609093749999,"end":5886.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5888.005343750001,"end":5891.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5891.97096875,"end":5896.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5896.93221875,"end":5896.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5896.9490937499995,"end":5896.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5896.965968750001,"end":5897.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5897.87721875,"end":5903.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5902.36596875,"end":5911.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5914.769093750001,"end":5915.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5916.085343750001,"end":5917.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5920.13534375,"end":5921.890343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5922.58221875,"end":5923.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5923.66221875,"end":5923.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5923.71284375,"end":5923.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5923.915343750001,"end":5923.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5924.32034375,"end":5926.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5927.86409375,"end":5928.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5929.349093750001,"end":5930.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5931.67784375,"end":5932.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5933.669093750001,"end":5934.782843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5936.30159375,"end":5937.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5939.03534375,"end":5939.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5940.06471875,"end":5941.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5941.870343750001,"end":5943.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5944.030343750001,"end":5945.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5945.97096875,"end":5947.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5948.95784375,"end":5950.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5951.607218749999,"end":5954.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5954.54346875,"end":5957.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5959.960343750001,"end":5961.884093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5963.892218750001,"end":5971.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5971.907843750001,"end":5973.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5975.92409375,"end":5976.734093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5977.98284375,"end":5978.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5978.87721875,"end":5979.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5980.311593750001,"end":5982.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5982.52221875,"end":5985.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5986.09971875,"end":5987.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5988.090968750001,"end":5988.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5989.542218750001,"end":5990.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5990.892218750001,"end":5992.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5992.61346875,"end":5993.895968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5995.46534375,"end":5997.220343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":5997.827843749999,"end":6001.439093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6002.654093749999,"end":6003.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6003.24471875,"end":6003.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6004.05471875,"end":6004.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6004.071593750001,"end":6014.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6013.4540937500005,"end":6015.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6015.02346875,"end":6016.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6017.470343750001,"end":6028.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6029.08034375,"end":6032.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6032.97846875,"end":6035.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6035.104718750001,"end":6035.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6035.12159375,"end":6035.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6035.91471875,"end":6038.142218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6038.46284375,"end":6041.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6042.3778437500005,"end":6044.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6043.10346875,"end":6044.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6044.40284375,"end":6045.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6045.0272187499995,"end":6045.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6045.972218750001,"end":6046.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6046.022843750001,"end":6046.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6046.47846875,"end":6046.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6046.66409375,"end":6046.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6046.967843750001,"end":6047.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6047.03534375,"end":6047.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6047.96346875,"end":6048.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6048.216593749999,"end":6049.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6048.30096875,"end":6048.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6053.44784375,"end":6054.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6054.44346875,"end":6055.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6058.74659375,"end":6058.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6058.763468749999,"end":6059.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6060.38346875,"end":6061.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6062.64471875,"end":6063.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6063.72471875,"end":6064.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6065.86784375,"end":6067.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6067.47096875,"end":6067.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6067.55534375,"end":6067.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6067.8759687500005,"end":6068.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6068.02784375,"end":6068.280968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6068.280968749999,"end":6068.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6068.34846875,"end":6068.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6069.00659375,"end":6069.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6069.0740937499995,"end":6069.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6069.175343750001,"end":6069.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6072.39846875,"end":6072.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6074.08596875,"end":6075.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6076.56659375,"end":6079.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6081.3759687500005,"end":6085.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6087.56909375,"end":6089.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6090.083468750001,"end":6091.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6092.429093750001,"end":6095.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6095.669093750001,"end":6096.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6098.335343750001,"end":6101.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6102.0478437500005,"end":6102.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6102.840968750001,"end":6104.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6105.67596875,"end":6108.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6108.038468750001,"end":6112.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6111.43034375,"end":6113.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6114.75471875,"end":6114.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6116.44221875,"end":6118.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6119.007218750001,"end":6125.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6120.25596875,"end":6121.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6121.75784375,"end":6123.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6123.9853437500005,"end":6124.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6126.9384687500005,"end":6128.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6129.38534375,"end":6129.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6129.4022187499995,"end":6132.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6134.380343750001,"end":6135.932843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6134.852843750001,"end":6134.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6136.42221875,"end":6138.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6138.970343750001,"end":6142.767218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6143.50971875,"end":6144.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6144.927218750001,"end":6146.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6145.062218749999,"end":6145.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6148.92659375,"end":6149.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6149.1122187500005,"end":6149.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6149.2978437500005,"end":6150.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6149.83784375,"end":6149.939093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6151.019093750001,"end":6151.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6152.40284375,"end":6153.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6154.073468750001,"end":6155.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6155.8622187500005,"end":6168.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6163.65846875,"end":6166.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6167.759093750001,"end":6168.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6168.2822187500005,"end":6168.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6168.974093750001,"end":6172.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6172.534718750001,"end":6174.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6175.403468750001,"end":6178.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6178.79534375,"end":6180.314093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6180.702218750001,"end":6182.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6182.946593750001,"end":6189.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6191.35034375,"end":6191.704718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6192.3290937500005,"end":6193.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6194.624093750001,"end":6195.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6195.56909375,"end":6199.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6200.6990937499995,"end":6201.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6203.2303437499995,"end":6204.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6205.89659375,"end":6207.077843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6207.48284375,"end":6209.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6210.99284375,"end":6211.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6212.62971875,"end":6213.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6214.215968750001,"end":6214.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6215.616593750001,"end":6216.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6217.75971875,"end":6222.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6224.425343750001,"end":6227.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6227.850968750001,"end":6230.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6231.00659375,"end":6235.157843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6236.11971875,"end":6238.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6238.161593750001,"end":6239.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6241.6209687499995,"end":6242.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6243.274718750001,"end":6244.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6245.012843750001,"end":6245.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6247.88159375,"end":6249.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6249.687218749999,"end":6251.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6253.686593750001,"end":6256.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6257.044718749999,"end":6258.360968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6259.440968750001,"end":6260.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6262.66409375,"end":6264.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6266.612843750001,"end":6268.249718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6270.52784375,"end":6272.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6272.670968750001,"end":6275.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6276.788468750001,"end":6277.4803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6277.83471875,"end":6279.218468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6280.56846875,"end":6282.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6284.21346875,"end":6284.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6285.5634687500005,"end":6286.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6287.35221875,"end":6288.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6289.24221875,"end":6295.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6295.6884687500005,"end":6297.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6297.882218750001,"end":6302.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6300.919718749999,"end":6302.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6302.35409375,"end":6302.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6302.53971875,"end":6302.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6302.72534375,"end":6303.265343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6303.265343749999,"end":6303.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6303.43409375,"end":6303.450968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":6304.41284375,"end":6309.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6309.509093750001,"end":6314.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6323.49846875,"end":6325.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6328.729718750001,"end":6329.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6337.60596875,"end":6339.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6339.782843750001,"end":6340.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6340.55909375,"end":6342.921593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6343.815968750001,"end":6344.845343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6345.95909375,"end":6347.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6347.190968750001,"end":6350.329718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6351.00471875,"end":6354.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6354.80159375,"end":6357.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6358.69971875,"end":6361.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6362.36159375,"end":6364.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6364.673468750001,"end":6366.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6366.9178437499995,"end":6369.314093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6369.735968750001,"end":6370.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6370.7147187499995,"end":6372.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6373.46534375,"end":6376.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6377.717843750001,"end":6378.359093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6378.696593750001,"end":6379.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6379.8778437500005,"end":6380.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6381.042218750001,"end":6381.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6382.27409375,"end":6383.235968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6383.624093750001,"end":6387.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6387.690968750001,"end":6390.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6391.3865937499995,"end":6396.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6396.8709687499995,"end":6399.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6399.604718750001,"end":6403.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6404.02596875,"end":6409.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6409.8309687500005,"end":6413.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6414.10034375,"end":6416.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6416.665343750001,"end":6418.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6418.79159375,"end":6420.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6421.00221875,"end":6422.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6422.942843750001,"end":6424.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6424.84971875,"end":6426.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6426.72284375,"end":6428.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6429.06846875,"end":6430.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6430.6884687500005,"end":6439.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6432.1903437500005,"end":6432.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":6432.24096875,"end":6432.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":6432.91596875,"end":6433.017218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6440.35784375,"end":6441.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6442.534718750001,"end":6444.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6444.9647187499995,"end":6446.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6447.647843750001,"end":6450.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6450.61784375,"end":6453.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6454.026593750001,"end":6456.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6457.1990937499995,"end":6457.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6457.97534375,"end":6458.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6458.02596875,"end":6458.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6458.16096875,"end":6458.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6458.481593750001,"end":6458.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6458.97096875,"end":6458.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6458.987843750001,"end":6459.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6459.544718749999,"end":6459.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6459.66284375,"end":6460.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6460.962218750001,"end":6462.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6461.02971875,"end":6464.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6463.18971875,"end":6464.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6464.624093750001,"end":6464.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6464.87721875,"end":6464.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6465.231593750001,"end":6471.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6472.57221875,"end":6473.939093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6474.61409375,"end":6477.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6477.7528437500005,"end":6479.609093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6479.96346875,"end":6484.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6484.5028437500005,"end":6487.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6488.198468750001,"end":6490.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6491.6747187500005,"end":6493.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6493.98659375,"end":6495.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6496.19721875,"end":6499.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6500.196593750001,"end":6503.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6503.31846875,"end":6504.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6505.7822187500005,"end":6509.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6511.452218750001,"end":6513.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6515.36721875,"end":6516.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6516.734093749999,"end":6519.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6519.67034375,"end":6521.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6521.762843750001,"end":6524.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6525.357218749999,"end":6527.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":6527.669093750001,"end":6528.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6528.52971875,"end":6529.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6529.677218750001,"end":6532.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6533.102843750001,"end":6536.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6536.747843749999,"end":6539.329718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6539.83596875,"end":6540.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6541.017218750001,"end":6545.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6545.337218750001,"end":6561.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6545.35409375,"end":6545.843468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6558.921593749999,"end":6559.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6561.030968749999,"end":6562.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6562.077218750001,"end":6562.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6562.448468750001,"end":6562.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6562.51596875,"end":6564.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6565.14846875,"end":6567.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6568.18596875,"end":6570.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6570.6834687499995,"end":6570.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6570.970343750001,"end":6571.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6571.03784375,"end":6571.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6571.13909375,"end":6571.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6571.1728437500005,"end":6571.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6571.763468749999,"end":6571.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6571.79721875,"end":6571.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6571.965968750001,"end":6574.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6572.06721875,"end":6572.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6574.24409375,"end":6574.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6574.93596875,"end":6578.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6579.374093750001,"end":6580.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6579.81284375,"end":6579.829718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6579.86346875,"end":6579.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6581.17971875,"end":6585.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6584.55471875,"end":6591.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6591.86159375,"end":6596.468468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6591.89534375,"end":6592.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6597.00846875,"end":6599.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6600.11346875,"end":6602.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6602.45909375,"end":6606.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6606.981593750001,"end":6609.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6610.997843749999,"end":6612.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6612.921593749999,"end":6613.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6614.710343750001,"end":6616.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6617.59596875,"end":6619.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6620.59971875,"end":6622.017218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6622.52346875,"end":6625.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6625.729718750001,"end":6628.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6628.682843750001,"end":6629.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6629.189093750001,"end":6630.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6631.36596875,"end":6634.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6634.75784375,"end":6636.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6637.6434687500005,"end":6641.187218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6641.6259687500005,"end":6644.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6645.608468750001,"end":6646.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6647.31284375,"end":6647.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6648.595343750001,"end":6649.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6650.249093750001,"end":6651.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6652.42596875,"end":6654.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6656.12159375,"end":6656.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6657.319718750001,"end":6657.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6658.484093749999,"end":6661.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6662.60159375,"end":6665.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6666.280343750001,"end":6667.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6668.40659375,"end":6671.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6672.33846875,"end":6674.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6674.667218750001,"end":6676.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6676.32096875,"end":6676.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6676.70909375,"end":6677.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6677.50221875,"end":6678.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6678.9872187500005,"end":6680.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6681.045968750001,"end":6681.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6682.5478437500005,"end":6683.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6684.30284375,"end":6686.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6686.6990937499995,"end":6686.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6687.05346875,"end":6687.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6688.70721875,"end":6690.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6691.542218750001,"end":6692.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6693.29721875,"end":6695.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6696.06471875,"end":6697.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6697.9715937500005,"end":6698.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6698.49471875,"end":6699.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6699.557843750001,"end":6700.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6701.41409375,"end":6702.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6704.012843750001,"end":6704.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6705.29534375,"end":6706.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6707.26971875,"end":6709.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6709.733468750001,"end":6711.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6711.85971875,"end":6715.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6715.437218749999,"end":6716.2303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6717.090968750001,"end":6718.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6718.7615937499995,"end":6719.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6719.807843750001,"end":6721.579718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6722.17034375,"end":6722.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6723.368468750001,"end":6725.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6725.5115937499995,"end":6728.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6729.460343750001,"end":6731.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6732.042218750001,"end":6733.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6733.51034375,"end":6735.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6735.80534375,"end":6738.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6738.640343749999,"end":6741.357218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6741.86346875,"end":6746.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6747.280343750001,"end":6749.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6749.474093750001,"end":6750.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6750.75659375,"end":6753.220343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6753.70971875,"end":6756.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6756.76409375,"end":6757.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6758.282843750001,"end":6760.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6761.0165937500005,"end":6761.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6762.737843750001,"end":6765.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6766.12971875,"end":6767.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6767.985968750001,"end":6770.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6771.42846875,"end":6772.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6772.592843750001,"end":6774.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6774.66846875,"end":6776.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6777.90846875,"end":6780.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6781.0809687500005,"end":6782.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6781.452218750001,"end":6782.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6782.430968750001,"end":6790.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6790.767218750001,"end":6806.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6799.6434687500005,"end":6800.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6806.5115937499995,"end":6807.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6807.270968750001,"end":6810.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6810.038468750001,"end":6812.046593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6811.74284375,"end":6826.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6820.61909375,"end":6821.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6826.997843749999,"end":6832.110968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6832.88721875,"end":6833.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6834.6590937500005,"end":6835.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6836.430968750001,"end":6837.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6837.409718750001,"end":6837.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":6837.44346875,"end":6837.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6837.91596875,"end":6839.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6840.548468750001,"end":6842.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6843.48471875,"end":6845.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6846.52221875,"end":6848.985968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6849.49221875,"end":6850.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6851.41596875,"end":6853.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6854.284718750001,"end":6856.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6856.5965937500005,"end":6857.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6858.85784375,"end":6859.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6860.005343750001,"end":6861.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6861.57471875,"end":6863.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6863.97096875,"end":6865.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6865.624718749999,"end":6869.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6870.16409375,"end":6871.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6872.44221875,"end":6875.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6876.087218750001,"end":6877.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6877.97721875,"end":6878.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6879.68159375,"end":6883.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6883.950968749999,"end":6885.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6885.67221875,"end":6886.954718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6887.17409375,"end":6888.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6888.96284375,"end":6891.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6892.202843749999,"end":6893.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6893.434718750001,"end":6895.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6895.51034375,"end":6896.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6897.72096875,"end":6900.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6900.62346875,"end":6904.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6905.2303437499995,"end":6906.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6907.05284375,"end":6909.499718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6910.03971875,"end":6912.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6912.53721875,"end":6914.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6915.085343750001,"end":6922.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6922.5947187500005,"end":6926.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6926.67846875,"end":6929.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6929.68221875,"end":6931.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6931.8759687500005,"end":6932.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6932.77034375,"end":6935.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6933.52971875,"end":6933.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6934.27221875,"end":6942.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":6942.57471875,"end":6943.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6943.0809687500005,"end":6946.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6947.704718750001,"end":6950.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6951.75471875,"end":6952.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6953.003468750001,"end":6954.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6954.53909375,"end":6954.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6955.56846875,"end":6958.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6958.97721875,"end":6959.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6959.466593749999,"end":6959.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6959.5340937500005,"end":6961.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6962.099093750001,"end":6965.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6966.38534375,"end":6967.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6967.9715937500005,"end":6968.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6968.292218750001,"end":6968.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6969.220343750001,"end":6971.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6971.380343750001,"end":6974.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6974.282843750001,"end":6977.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6977.91096875,"end":6982.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6982.80471875,"end":6983.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6984.20534375,"end":6987.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6988.13721875,"end":6990.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6990.702218750001,"end":6994.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6994.904093749999,"end":6998.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6999.02159375,"end":6999.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7001.36721875,"end":7004.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7005.56909375,"end":7010.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7010.39534375,"end":7011.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7011.981593750001,"end":7012.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7012.6903437500005,"end":7015.204718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7015.778468750001,"end":7018.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7018.967843750001,"end":7023.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7024.0809687500005,"end":7026.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7026.44346875,"end":7026.932843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7026.94971875,"end":7027.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7027.253468750001,"end":7029.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7029.66659375,"end":7032.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7033.24409375,"end":7036.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7036.97346875,"end":7038.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7039.0322187500005,"end":7041.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7041.884093750001,"end":7045.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7046.997218750001,"end":7050.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7051.41846875,"end":7054.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7054.75971875,"end":7057.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7054.810343749999,"end":7055.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7057.89846875,"end":7061.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7061.577218750001,"end":7062.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7063.770968750001,"end":7066.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7066.94346875,"end":7068.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7068.0740937499995,"end":7068.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7068.597218750001,"end":7070.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7070.26784375,"end":7073.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7073.5584687499995,"end":7075.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7075.819718750001,"end":7079.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7080.86534375,"end":7080.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7080.966593749999,"end":7091.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7093.065968750001,"end":7093.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7093.97721875,"end":7108.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7107.25784375,"end":7111.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7110.71721875,"end":7112.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7112.202218750001,"end":7115.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7112.235968750001,"end":7112.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7116.25221875,"end":7127.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7123.18784375,"end":7124.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7124.284718750001,"end":7124.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7124.31846875,"end":7124.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7127.389718750001,"end":7127.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7128.604718750001,"end":7130.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7130.849093750001,"end":7132.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7132.300343750001,"end":7134.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7134.274718750001,"end":7135.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7136.13096875,"end":7137.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7138.5947187500005,"end":7141.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7141.817843750001,"end":7143.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7144.04534375,"end":7145.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7146.05346875,"end":7146.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7147.200968749999,"end":7148.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7148.92221875,"end":7149.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7150.491593750001,"end":7151.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7152.7528437500005,"end":7155.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7155.90846875,"end":7164.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7164.649718750001,"end":7169.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7170.083468750001,"end":7172.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7172.73284375,"end":7174.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7175.280968750001,"end":7176.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7177.255343750001,"end":7178.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7179.0947187500005,"end":7182.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7183.026593750001,"end":7185.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7185.57471875,"end":7186.907843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7187.63346875,"end":7191.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7191.90284375,"end":7193.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7193.96159375,"end":7196.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7196.67846875,"end":7197.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7198.163468750001,"end":7198.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7199.665343750001,"end":7202.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7203.29346875,"end":7203.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7203.63096875,"end":7204.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7204.42409375,"end":7206.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7207.073468750001,"end":7208.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7208.54159375,"end":7209.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7210.22909375,"end":7211.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7212.0009687500005,"end":7213.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7214.4647187499995,"end":7216.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7216.725968750001,"end":7221.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7221.839093750001,"end":7224.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7225.163468750001,"end":7226.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7226.800343750001,"end":7229.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7229.50034375,"end":7231.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7231.4072187500005,"end":7235.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7235.9803437499995,"end":7237.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7238.241593750001,"end":7240.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7241.21159375,"end":7241.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7241.380343750001,"end":7242.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7242.42659375,"end":7244.704718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7244.02971875,"end":7251.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7246.915343750001,"end":7247.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7248.24846875,"end":7248.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7251.505343750001,"end":7252.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7253.327843750001,"end":7253.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7253.91846875,"end":7253.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7254.357218749999,"end":7259.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7259.74034375,"end":7261.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7261.64721875,"end":7264.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7265.07284375,"end":7267.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7267.6884687500005,"end":7268.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7269.39284375,"end":7271.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7272.514718750001,"end":7274.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7275.53534375,"end":7278.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7278.77534375,"end":7281.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7281.49221875,"end":7282.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7283.02784375,"end":7283.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7284.47909375,"end":7287.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7288.41096875,"end":7292.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7292.849093750001,"end":7296.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7296.10596875,"end":7300.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7297.84409375,"end":7308.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7306.720343750001,"end":7307.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7309.23471875,"end":7312.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7312.8290937500005,"end":7332.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7337.63534375,"end":7342.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7346.477843750001,"end":7348.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7348.55346875,"end":7350.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7348.73909375,"end":7349.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7349.12721875,"end":7349.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7356.045968750001,"end":7357.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":7357.497218750001,"end":7358.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7358.03721875,"end":7363.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7363.74096875,"end":7391.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7391.58471875,"end":7391.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":7391.60159375,"end":7391.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7391.82096875,"end":7403.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":7401.4228437500005,"end":7401.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7403.97096875,"end":7407.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7408.29096875,"end":7409.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7409.77596875,"end":7411.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7412.290343750001,"end":7426.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7427.17409375,"end":7435.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7429.23284375,"end":7429.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7434.7509687500005,"end":7437.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7439.03721875,"end":7439.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7439.762843750001,"end":7441.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7441.56846875,"end":7441.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7441.60221875,"end":7442.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7442.091593749999,"end":7443.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7443.30659375,"end":7448.048468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7443.9647187499995,"end":7445.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7448.014718750001,"end":7448.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7448.63909375,"end":7451.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7451.372843749999,"end":7453.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7453.2459687499995,"end":7480.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7454.477843750001,"end":7454.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7470.52596875,"end":7471.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7471.0322187500005,"end":7471.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7479.52034375,"end":7483.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7481.342843750001,"end":7493.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7487.890343750001,"end":7487.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7494.52221875,"end":7496.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7498.04909375,"end":7506.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7506.48659375,"end":7530.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":7507.499093750001,"end":7508.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":7508.190968750001,"end":7508.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7531.41096875,"end":7531.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7532.0184687500005,"end":7532.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7532.03534375,"end":7532.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7532.82846875,"end":7541.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7542.2615937499995,"end":7548.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7549.23096875,"end":7563.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7555.10346875,"end":7555.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7564.04721875,"end":7570.729718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7565.22846875,"end":7565.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7565.987843750001,"end":7566.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7569.497843749999,"end":7571.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7570.9490937499995,"end":7612.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":7612.88346875,"end":7613.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7612.98471875,"end":7613.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7614.38534375,"end":7643.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7644.405968750001,"end":7654.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7654.682843750001,"end":7655.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7656.319718750001,"end":7661.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7661.39909375,"end":7668.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7668.554093750001,"end":7672.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7672.36784375,"end":7681.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7681.69971875,"end":7683.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":7683.80909375,"end":7684.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7684.0115937499995,"end":7706.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7696.684718750001,"end":7696.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":7706.69159375,"end":7706.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7706.843468750001,"end":7734.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7721.27159375,"end":7721.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7734.90659375,"end":7736.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7736.17221875,"end":7737.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7736.67846875,"end":7737.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7737.606593750001,"end":7764.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7741.84221875,"end":7741.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7741.859093750001,"end":7742.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":7759.37534375,"end":7762.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7764.62346875,"end":7770.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":7766.091593749999,"end":7766.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7771.05284375,"end":7800.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7801.343468750001,"end":7802.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7802.997218750001,"end":7829.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7829.77784375,"end":7849.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7849.8759687500005,"end":7850.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7851.3778437500005,"end":7855.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":7855.1747187500005,"end":7855.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7855.41096875,"end":7866.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7867.42596875,"end":7878.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":7878.782843750001,"end":7879.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7879.03596875,"end":7881.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":7881.465968750001,"end":7881.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7881.63471875,"end":7926.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":7906.71096875,"end":7906.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":7906.964093750001,"end":7907.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7907.234093750001,"end":7907.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":7908.95534375,"end":7909.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7909.27596875,"end":7909.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":7910.64284375,"end":7910.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7910.96346875,"end":7911.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7925.07096875,"end":7929.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7927.46721875,"end":7946.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":7946.4853437500005,"end":7947.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7946.95784375,"end":7962.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7962.786593750001,"end":7963.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7963.56284375,"end":7967.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":7967.8153437500005,"end":7975.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7969.958468750001,"end":7970.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7971.81471875,"end":7971.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7973.569718750001,"end":7973.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7974.6834687499995,"end":7974.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7974.7509687500005,"end":7974.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7974.80159375,"end":7974.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7975.66221875,"end":7975.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7975.74659375,"end":7975.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7975.965968750001,"end":7976.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7976.202218750001,"end":7976.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7976.48909375,"end":7983.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7984.302218750001,"end":7985.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7989.550343750001,"end":7995.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7995.3553437499995,"end":7997.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7998.02159375,"end":8001.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8001.649718750001,"end":8011.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8011.36971875,"end":8016.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8017.630343750001,"end":8019.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8020.83659375,"end":8043.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8044.967843750001,"end":8051.700968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8051.97096875,"end":8054.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8054.249093750001,"end":8056.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8056.679093750001,"end":8062.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8063.142218750001,"end":8064.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8064.779093750001,"end":8067.884093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8068.32284375,"end":8072.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8072.6259687500005,"end":8073.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8073.689093750001,"end":8076.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8076.794093750001,"end":8077.907843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8078.059718750001,"end":8080.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8080.810343750001,"end":8082.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8082.81846875,"end":8085.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8086.22721875,"end":8094.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8095.08659375,"end":8099.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8100.62159375,"end":8104.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8104.84034375,"end":8108.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8109.16034375,"end":8110.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8111.2528437500005,"end":8114.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8114.796593750001,"end":8115.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8115.741593750001,"end":8116.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8117.39534375,"end":8121.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8121.3778437500005,"end":8130.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8132.02596875,"end":8146.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8147.044718750001,"end":8149.154093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8149.204718750001,"end":8152.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8152.765343750001,"end":8153.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8155.41471875,"end":8155.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8156.342843750001,"end":8160.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8160.7978437500005,"end":8163.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8167.09221875,"end":8167.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8167.109093750001,"end":8167.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8169.269093750001,"end":8175.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8171.88471875,"end":8172.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8175.782843750001,"end":8178.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8183.3934687500005,"end":8190.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8191.00409375,"end":8191.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8191.13909375,"end":8196.977843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8197.129718750002,"end":8198.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8199.62721875,"end":8214.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8214.797843750002,"end":8217.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8217.683468750001,"end":8218.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8219.92784375,"end":8220.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8220.92346875,"end":8221.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8221.649093750002,"end":8224.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8225.20971875,"end":8228.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8229.884093749999,"end":8244.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8244.379718750002,"end":8245.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8246.10096875,"end":8251.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8251.180343750002,"end":8257.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8257.79534375,"end":8260.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8261.27159375,"end":8261.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8262.13221875,"end":8265.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8265.96284375,"end":8268.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8268.325343750003,"end":8271.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8272.172843750002,"end":8272.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8272.847843750002,"end":8273.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8273.20221875,"end":8273.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8273.28659375,"end":8273.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8273.320343750001,"end":8273.337218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8274.231593750003,"end":8274.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8274.265343750001,"end":8274.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8274.40034375,"end":8274.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8276.50971875,"end":8283.462218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8284.20471875,"end":8288.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8289.11534375,"end":8291.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8292.18659375,"end":8292.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8293.06409375,"end":8295.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8295.409718750001,"end":8296.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8296.87784375,"end":8300.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":8300.438468750002,"end":8300.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8300.539718750002,"end":8306.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":8300.57346875,"end":8300.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8307.35721875,"end":8310.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8310.58034375,"end":8312.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8313.22971875,"end":8318.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8318.579093750002,"end":8320.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8320.671593750001,"end":8325.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8325.46409375,"end":8330.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8331.015968750002,"end":8331.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8331.04971875,"end":8338.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8338.187843750002,"end":8338.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8338.32284375,"end":8345.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8350.35471875,"end":8353.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8355.282218750002,"end":8355.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8355.383468750002,"end":8355.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8356.176593750002,"end":8356.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8356.277843750002,"end":8356.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8356.81784375,"end":8358.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8357.56034375,"end":8358.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8358.657218750002,"end":8362.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8358.707843750002,"end":8358.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8365.019093750001,"end":8368.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8368.242218750001,"end":8371.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8374.13159375,"end":8374.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8375.059718750003,"end":8376.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8376.375968750002,"end":8377.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8377.35471875,"end":8381.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8380.83096875,"end":8381.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8381.97846875,"end":8382.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8382.214718750001,"end":8382.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8382.231593750003,"end":8383.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8383.058468750001,"end":8383.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8384.77971875,"end":8388.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8387.496593750002,"end":8387.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8387.53034375,"end":8387.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8387.648468750001,"end":8387.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8389.31909375,"end":8397.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8397.80721875,"end":8399.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8399.79846875,"end":8402.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8402.71784375,"end":8404.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8405.65409375,"end":8408.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8408.97846875,"end":8416.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8417.280968750001,"end":8420.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8420.63909375,"end":8422.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8423.237843750001,"end":8427.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8427.895343750002,"end":8430.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8430.629093750002,"end":8434.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8434.35846875,"end":8438.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8438.442218750002,"end":8442.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8442.559718750003,"end":8448.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8449.140968750002,"end":8455.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8455.45221875,"end":8460.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8461.29096875,"end":8466.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8467.079093750002,"end":8470.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8471.51721875,"end":8476.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8476.44471875,"end":8478.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8478.85784375,"end":8484.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8485.118468750003,"end":8487.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8487.700343750003,"end":8492.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8492.594093750002,"end":8495.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8495.969093750002,"end":8504.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8505.250343750002,"end":8528.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8528.824718750002,"end":8529.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8529.65159375,"end":8534.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8534.64659375,"end":8543.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8544.19784375,"end":8546.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8546.340968750003,"end":8547.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8547.87659375,"end":8551.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8551.707218750002,"end":8553.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8553.917843750001,"end":8555.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8555.41971875,"end":8560.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8560.937843750002,"end":8563.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8563.53659375,"end":8565.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8565.96659375,"end":8567.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8567.805968750003,"end":8575.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8576.226593750001,"end":8587.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8586.874718750001,"end":8594.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8588.54534375,"end":8588.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8594.23221875,"end":8596.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8596.223468750002,"end":8596.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8596.746593750002,"end":8598.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8600.30721875,"end":8601.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8602.484093750001,"end":8605.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8606.16284375,"end":8607.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8608.15409375,"end":8608.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8609.36909375,"end":8644.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8644.97534375,"end":8645.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8645.042843750001,"end":8657.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8645.093468750001,"end":8645.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8657.61471875,"end":8672.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8672.886593750001,"end":8675.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8676.41346875,"end":8676.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8677.18971875,"end":8677.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8678.23596875,"end":8683.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8684.597843750002,"end":8685.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8685.964718750001,"end":8686.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8687.04471875,"end":8692.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8692.562843750002,"end":8692.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8692.57971875,"end":8692.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8693.204093750002,"end":8699.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8699.785343750002,"end":8702.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8703.059093750002,"end":8704.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8704.71284375,"end":8710.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8711.327843750001,"end":8719.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8715.42846875,"end":8715.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8715.546593750001,"end":8715.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8716.89659375,"end":8717.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8718.43221875,"end":8724.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8724.92909375,"end":8727.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8727.86534375,"end":8729.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8730.24471875,"end":8735.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8735.20596875,"end":8737.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8738.46284375,"end":8742.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8742.917843750001,"end":8744.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8745.094718750002,"end":8747.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8747.828468750002,"end":8749.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8750.69721875,"end":8752.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8752.65471875,"end":8753.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8754.59534375,"end":8760.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8761.919093750003,"end":8774.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8762.03721875,"end":8763.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8768.09534375,"end":8769.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8769.27659375,"end":8770.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8773.90034375,"end":8780.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8780.684093750002,"end":8783.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8783.316593750002,"end":8792.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8793.087218750003,"end":8794.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8794.57221875,"end":8798.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8798.85846875,"end":8814.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8815.19346875,"end":8834.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8834.532218750002,"end":8838.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8838.86909375,"end":8842.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8842.007843750001,"end":8842.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8842.227218750002,"end":8842.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8842.41284375,"end":8848.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8849.618468750003,"end":8849.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8850.394718750002,"end":8850.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8851.12034375,"end":8852.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8852.80784375,"end":8855.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8855.64284375,"end":8858.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8859.102218750002,"end":8863.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8863.253468750001,"end":8864.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8864.55284375,"end":8868.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8868.82221875,"end":8870.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8870.72909375,"end":8875.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8875.62284375,"end":8876.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8877.090968750003,"end":8879.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8879.706593750001,"end":8883.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8884.347218750001,"end":8884.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8885.44409375,"end":8888.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":8892.160343750002,"end":8952.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":8954.024093750002,"end":8955.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8960.082218750002,"end":8966.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":8960.84159375,"end":8963.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8967.152843750002,"end":8968.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8968.38471875,"end":8972.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8973.17721875,"end":8975.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8976.062843750002,"end":8978.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8978.543468750002,"end":8978.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8979.269093750001,"end":8979.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8980.079093750002,"end":8985.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8988.870968750001,"end":8988.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8988.921593750001,"end":8989.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8989.05659375,"end":8989.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8989.74846875,"end":8990.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8993.140343750001,"end":8998.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8998.43909375,"end":9011.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9012.074093750001,"end":9014.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9014.605343750001,"end":9015.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9016.309718750003,"end":9022.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9022.688468750002,"end":9026.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9026.637218750002,"end":9029.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9029.809718750003,"end":9031.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9031.83471875,"end":9036.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":9032.020343750002,"end":9032.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9036.72846875,"end":9039.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9039.344093750002,"end":9052.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9052.60784375,"end":9061.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9061.77096875,"end":9064.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9064.875968750002,"end":9071.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9072.01409375,"end":9084.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9084.77159375,"end":9093.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9093.934718750003,"end":9100.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9101.00534375,"end":9114.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9114.218468750001,"end":9116.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9116.93534375,"end":9118.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9119.06159375,"end":9122.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9123.21284375,"end":9131.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9132.61221875,"end":9134.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9134.02971875,"end":9134.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9135.649718750003,"end":9136.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9137.15159375,"end":9143.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9143.800343750001,"end":9148.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9148.660343750002,"end":9154.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9154.262843750003,"end":9154.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9155.039093750001,"end":9158.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9158.532218750002,"end":9159.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9161.35034375,"end":9162.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9162.66659375,"end":9164.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9165.585968750001,"end":9169.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9168.640343750001,"end":9169.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9169.46721875,"end":9172.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9170.19284375,"end":9171.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9172.454093750002,"end":9172.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9172.926593750002,"end":9174.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9174.985343750002,"end":9184.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9184.418468750002,"end":9190.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9189.582218750002,"end":9201.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9202.05284375,"end":9202.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9203.09909375,"end":9205.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9205.47846875,"end":9210.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9210.152843750002,"end":9220.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9221.08784375,"end":9222.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9222.89346875,"end":9225.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9235.043468750002,"end":9239.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9240.257843750001,"end":9242.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9243.44721875,"end":9244.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9251.648468750001,"end":9252.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9252.070343750001,"end":9260.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9260.47409375,"end":9278.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9278.51346875,"end":9282.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9282.242843750002,"end":9314.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9314.47409375,"end":9317.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9317.64659375,"end":9331.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9332.125343750002,"end":9333.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9334.234718750002,"end":9342.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9342.790343750003,"end":9352.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9353.10096875,"end":9365.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9366.027218750001,"end":9370.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9370.262843750003,"end":9374.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9375.207218750002,"end":9411.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9411.960968750001,"end":9416.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9416.922218750002,"end":9437.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9437.77971875,"end":9441.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9441.930968750003,"end":9458.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9459.160343750002,"end":9461.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9461.860343750002,"end":9466.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9466.382843750001,"end":9475.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9476.06909375,"end":9495.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9495.57659375,"end":9510.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9509.532218750002,"end":9512.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9511.77659375,"end":9512.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9512.08034375,"end":9515.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9515.77596875,"end":9515.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":9515.809718750003,"end":9517.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9516.113468750002,"end":9572.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9548.918468750002,"end":9549.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9561.38909375,"end":9561.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9561.43971875,"end":9561.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9572.03721875,"end":9572.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9572.98221875,"end":9579.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9577.99409375,"end":9578.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9579.512843750003,"end":9579.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9579.917843750001,"end":9593.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9593.114093750002,"end":9602.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9594.953468750002,"end":9595.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9596.57346875,"end":9597.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9599.864093750002,"end":9600.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9600.589718750001,"end":9605.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9602.496593750002,"end":9602.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9606.192218750002,"end":9607.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9607.84596875,"end":9623.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9623.97846875,"end":9624.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9625.68284375,"end":9632.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9629.61471875,"end":9632.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9632.449718750002,"end":9636.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9636.63471875,"end":9636.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9636.68534375,"end":9636.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":9636.85409375,"end":9636.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9637.10721875,"end":9655.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9655.56846875,"end":9659.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9659.11221875,"end":9660.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9659.16284375,"end":9659.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9661.05284375,"end":9661.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9662.58846875,"end":9664.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9665.035343750002,"end":9670.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":9669.372218750003,"end":9669.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":9670.08096875,"end":9670.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9670.739093750002,"end":9680.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":9670.789718750002,"end":9671.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9680.98221875,"end":9692.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":9682.973468750002,"end":9683.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9683.31096875,"end":9683.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_39","start":9688.305968750003,"end":9688.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9688.32284375,"end":9688.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9689.284718750001,"end":9691.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9692.47409375,"end":9693.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9692.81159375,"end":9693.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9693.53721875,"end":9710.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9699.71346875,"end":9700.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":9710.395343750002,"end":9711.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9710.766593750002,"end":9726.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9727.202843750001,"end":9734.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9734.492843750002,"end":9738.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9736.66971875,"end":9737.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9738.239093750002,"end":9752.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9752.97096875,"end":9767.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9767.53409375,"end":9770.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9770.84159375,"end":9771.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9771.145343750002,"end":9774.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9775.06034375,"end":9780.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9781.28721875,"end":9788.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9788.965343750002,"end":9790.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9790.51784375,"end":9791.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9791.26034375,"end":9797.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9792.32346875,"end":9794.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9797.16659375,"end":9797.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9797.402843750002,"end":9802.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9802.44846875,"end":9811.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9806.734718750002,"end":9807.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9809.70471875,"end":9810.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9810.97034375,"end":9813.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9812.18534375,"end":9821.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9817.24784375,"end":9817.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_38","start":9821.36534375,"end":9826.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9822.79971875,"end":9822.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9822.83346875,"end":9822.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9822.884093750003,"end":9823.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9823.52534375,"end":9823.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9826.140968750002,"end":9826.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9826.27596875,"end":9826.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9826.96784375,"end":9829.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9830.190968750001,"end":9838.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9847.825343750003,"end":9850.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9850.59284375,"end":9850.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9850.609718750002,"end":9850.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9850.62659375,"end":9850.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9850.69409375,"end":9851.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9851.554718750001,"end":9855.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9854.17034375,"end":9857.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9865.493468750003,"end":9902.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":9865.71284375,"end":9865.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9902.129093750002,"end":9931.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9932.43659375,"end":9950.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9933.31409375,"end":9935.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9938.899718750003,"end":9940.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9950.61096875,"end":9973.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9957.69846875,"end":9957.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9957.90096875,"end":9957.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9974.067218750002,"end":9975.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9976.34534375,"end":9978.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9979.062218750001,"end":9979.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9979.079093750002,"end":9980.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9980.88471875,"end":10000.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9991.785968750002,"end":9992.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10000.965968750003,"end":10004.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10005.10034375,"end":10007.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10007.42909375,"end":10018.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":10013.605343750001,"end":10013.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10013.976593750001,"end":10014.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10018.836593750002,"end":10024.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10024.995968750001,"end":10033.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10028.016593750002,"end":10028.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10033.29846875,"end":10042.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10038.765968750002,"end":10050.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10048.418468750002,"end":10048.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10050.91596875,"end":10053.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10052.23221875,"end":10057.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10055.94471875,"end":10061.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10061.98596875,"end":10066.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10066.778468750003,"end":10066.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10066.79534375,"end":10066.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":10066.96409375,"end":10067.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10066.96409375,"end":10072.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10072.887218750002,"end":10078.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10078.624718750001,"end":10087.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10078.641593750002,"end":10078.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10087.551593750002,"end":10104.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10104.848468750002,"end":10106.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10108.105343750001,"end":10114.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10114.34909375,"end":10114.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10114.36596875,"end":10114.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10114.602218750002,"end":10114.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10115.074718750002,"end":10118.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10118.348468750002,"end":10128.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10123.37721875,"end":10124.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10129.85721875,"end":10144.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10143.79596875,"end":10143.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10144.62284375,"end":10145.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10145.93909375,"end":10161.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10145.98971875,"end":10146.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10161.51471875,"end":10162.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10163.35409375,"end":10163.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10164.636593750001,"end":10164.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10165.649093750002,"end":10170.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10170.137843750003,"end":10180.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10179.824093750001,"end":10180.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10180.313468750002,"end":10183.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10180.33034375,"end":10180.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10183.249718750001,"end":10184.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10184.49846875,"end":10185.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10186.000343750002,"end":10194.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10195.230968750002,"end":10196.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10197.03659375,"end":10201.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10202.149718750003,"end":10207.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10208.477843750003,"end":10224.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10211.414093750001,"end":10211.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10221.57284375,"end":10221.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10221.92721875,"end":10222.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10224.964718750001,"end":10225.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10225.032218750002,"end":10225.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10225.26846875,"end":10225.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10225.36971875,"end":10225.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10225.977218750002,"end":10226.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10226.11221875,"end":10226.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10228.25534375,"end":10228.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10228.390343750001,"end":10228.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10228.407218750002,"end":10228.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10228.49159375,"end":10231.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10228.508468750002,"end":10228.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10231.984718750002,"end":10246.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10235.579093750002,"end":10236.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10245.687218750001,"end":10247.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10247.56034375,"end":10247.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10247.965343750002,"end":10249.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10249.281593750002,"end":10249.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10249.399718750003,"end":10250.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10250.969093750002,"end":10254.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10255.10346875,"end":10258.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10259.980343750001,"end":10261.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10261.90409375,"end":10262.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10262.477843750003,"end":10273.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10273.868468750003,"end":10276.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10276.450343750003,"end":10278.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10278.593468750001,"end":10280.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10280.38221875,"end":10289.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10288.53284375,"end":10300.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10296.56534375,"end":10296.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10296.649718750003,"end":10296.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10298.472218750001,"end":10298.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10298.489093750002,"end":10298.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10298.50596875,"end":10298.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10298.640968750002,"end":10298.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10298.910968750002,"end":10299.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10299.113468750002,"end":10301.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10300.024718750003,"end":10300.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10300.34534375,"end":10300.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10301.712218750003,"end":10306.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10301.94846875,"end":10301.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10306.63971875,"end":10309.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10309.69409375,"end":10312.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10312.394093750001,"end":10316.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10317.102218750002,"end":10318.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10318.688468750002,"end":10322.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10323.17721875,"end":10327.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10327.83471875,"end":10345.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10348.101593750001,"end":10353.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10353.636593750001,"end":10387.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10387.015343750001,"end":10402.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10403.50221875,"end":10405.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10405.797218750002,"end":10405.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10405.898468750001,"end":10405.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10405.965968750003,"end":10407.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10407.40034375,"end":10407.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10407.99096875,"end":10408.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10408.109093750001,"end":10409.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10408.41284375,"end":10408.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10409.83034375,"end":10421.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10421.49096875,"end":10427.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10428.03846875,"end":10433.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10433.640968750002,"end":10436.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10437.20159375,"end":10438.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10439.277218750001,"end":10440.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10440.390968750002,"end":10451.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10446.75284375,"end":10448.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10450.296593750001,"end":10451.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10451.410343750002,"end":10451.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10451.460968750001,"end":10451.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10451.49471875,"end":10451.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10451.511593750001,"end":10451.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10451.612843750001,"end":10452.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10452.794093750003,"end":10457.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":10588.28346875,"end":10589.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10589.07659375,"end":10589.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10593.97034375,"end":10594.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10594.746593750002,"end":10594.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10594.965968750003,"end":10595.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10595.320343750001,"end":10595.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10595.35409375,"end":10597.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10603.184093750002,"end":10617.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":10616.852843750003,"end":10616.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":10616.937218750001,"end":10617.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":10617.76409375,"end":10618.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10618.067843750003,"end":10618.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":10618.13534375,"end":10618.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10618.202843750001,"end":10626.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10626.87659375,"end":10627.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10627.382843750001,"end":10627.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10627.973468750002,"end":10628.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10628.800343750001,"end":10628.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10641.96284375,"end":10655.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10655.10846875,"end":10656.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10657.707218750002,"end":10657.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10657.977218750002,"end":10658.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10659.884093750003,"end":10665.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10729.965968750003,"end":10730.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10731.012218750002,"end":10731.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10732.581593750001,"end":10732.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10732.969718750002,"end":10733.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":10733.492843750002,"end":10733.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11060.817218750002,"end":11062.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11068.815968750001,"end":11070.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11070.90846875,"end":11073.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11082.113468750002,"end":11083.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11083.952843750001,"end":11085.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11086.04534375,"end":11088.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11086.922843750002,"end":11087.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11088.492218750001,"end":11089.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11096.06909375,"end":11100.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11100.456593750001,"end":11111.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11111.391593750002,"end":11113.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11113.21409375,"end":11116.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11117.247218750003,"end":11118.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11118.64784375,"end":11121.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11121.550343750001,"end":11126.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11127.28784375,"end":11129.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11129.532218750002,"end":11130.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11130.949718750002,"end":11134.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11134.66221875,"end":11135.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11135.87721875,"end":11141.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11142.42471875,"end":11143.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11143.58909375,"end":11144.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11144.95596875,"end":11145.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11146.019093750001,"end":11146.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11147.68971875,"end":11148.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11149.32659375,"end":11150.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11151.58784375,"end":11152.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11152.75221875,"end":11155.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11157.207218750002,"end":11157.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11158.101593750001,"end":11160.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11160.41346875,"end":11161.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11161.965968750003,"end":11163.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11163.602843750003,"end":11170.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11171.449718750002,"end":11174.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11174.43659375,"end":11177.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11177.727218750002,"end":11180.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11181.01784375,"end":11184.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11185.101593750001,"end":11187.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11189.016593750002,"end":11189.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11190.41721875,"end":11192.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11193.488468750002,"end":11200.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11200.59284375,"end":11204.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11204.659718750001,"end":11208.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11209.317218750002,"end":11210.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11210.582843750002,"end":11212.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11212.641593750002,"end":11215.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11215.66221875,"end":11218.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11219.03721875,"end":11220.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11221.14659375,"end":11222.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11223.35721875,"end":11227.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11228.200343750003,"end":11228.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11229.17909375,"end":11260.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11229.668468750002,"end":11230.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11254.559093750002,"end":11254.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11254.57596875,"end":11254.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11260.75221875,"end":11260.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11260.785968750002,"end":11262.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11262.92909375,"end":11268.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11265.359093750001,"end":11266.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11267.99159375,"end":11269.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11269.695968750002,"end":11270.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11270.87721875,"end":11271.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11274.809093750002,"end":11277.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11277.340343750002,"end":11283.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11278.386593750001,"end":11279.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11284.91721875,"end":11287.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11287.245968750001,"end":11287.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11288.005343750003,"end":11294.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11292.86534375,"end":11292.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11292.96659375,"end":11302.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11302.72034375,"end":11306.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11306.297843750002,"end":11309.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11310.22971875,"end":11314.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11315.258468750002,"end":11318.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11318.86971875,"end":11318.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":11318.903468750003,"end":11319.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11319.105968750002,"end":11319.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11319.156593750002,"end":11323.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11324.067218750002,"end":11325.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11325.332843750002,"end":11327.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11326.24409375,"end":11328.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11328.30284375,"end":11328.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11328.336593750002,"end":11328.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11328.809093750002,"end":11331.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11331.37409375,"end":11331.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11332.352843750003,"end":11338.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11338.91721875,"end":11338.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11338.96784375,"end":11339.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11339.507843750001,"end":11339.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11340.317843750003,"end":11341.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11341.38096875,"end":11341.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11342.49471875,"end":11344.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11344.65471875,"end":11347.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11347.92846875,"end":11349.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11349.852218750002,"end":11351.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11351.57346875,"end":11353.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11353.581593750001,"end":11354.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11354.20596875,"end":11359.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11357.83409375,"end":11363.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11364.195968750002,"end":11364.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11365.02284375,"end":11366.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11367.722843750002,"end":11369.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11369.089718750001,"end":11369.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11370.43971875,"end":11371.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11372.02596875,"end":11374.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11375.046593750001,"end":11377.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11377.39221875,"end":11379.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11379.974093750003,"end":11381.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11379.99096875,"end":11384.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11383.16346875,"end":11383.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11384.41221875,"end":11385.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11385.52596875,"end":11387.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11386.21784375,"end":11389.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11389.99784375,"end":11407.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11398.33409375,"end":11398.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":11407.73346875,"end":11408.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11408.070968750002,"end":11418.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11418.90471875,"end":11421.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":11421.452843750001,"end":11421.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11421.942218750002,"end":11426.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":11425.519718750002,"end":11426.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11426.17784375,"end":11426.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11426.22846875,"end":11429.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11429.67096875,"end":11449.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11432.87721875,"end":11432.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":11432.92784375,"end":11432.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":11433.02909375,"end":11433.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11433.36659375,"end":11433.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11437.61909375,"end":11437.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11437.652843750002,"end":11438.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11438.00721875,"end":11438.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":11443.94721875,"end":11444.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11444.63909375,"end":11444.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11449.53284375,"end":11449.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11449.80284375,"end":11451.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11451.08534375,"end":11451.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11451.38909375,"end":11452.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11451.405968750001,"end":11451.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11452.90784375,"end":11457.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11457.71721875,"end":11458.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11458.797218750002,"end":11459.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11458.965968750003,"end":11459.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11460.29909375,"end":11461.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11461.36221875,"end":11461.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11462.47596875,"end":11467.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11464.36596875,"end":11465.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11467.42034375,"end":11467.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11467.47096875,"end":11467.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11467.487843750001,"end":11467.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11467.67346875,"end":11467.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11468.500343750002,"end":11468.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11469.22596875,"end":11469.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11470.829093750002,"end":11476.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11477.71409375,"end":11479.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11478.43971875,"end":11479.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11479.199093750001,"end":11479.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11479.40159375,"end":11479.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11480.32971875,"end":11482.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11482.624718750001,"end":11484.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11485.105343750001,"end":11485.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11485.847843750002,"end":11486.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11486.910968750002,"end":11487.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11488.379093750002,"end":11489.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11489.94846875,"end":11492.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":11492.85096875,"end":11493.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11493.25596875,"end":11502.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11503.70159375,"end":11504.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11505.743468750003,"end":11507.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11508.477218750002,"end":11509.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11509.641593750002,"end":11510.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11511.480968750002,"end":11512.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11513.050343750001,"end":11513.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11513.45534375,"end":11514.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11514.704093750002,"end":11515.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11515.98659375,"end":11517.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11518.332218750002,"end":11521.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11521.99409375,"end":11524.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11524.829093750002,"end":11525.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11526.719093750002,"end":11527.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11527.86659375,"end":11528.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11529.452843750001,"end":11530.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11531.579093750002,"end":11533.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11533.941593750002,"end":11534.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11534.987843750001,"end":11536.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11536.77659375,"end":11537.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11537.890343750001,"end":11540.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11540.35409375,"end":11541.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11541.957218750002,"end":11542.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11543.543468750002,"end":11547.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11548.082843750002,"end":11550.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11549.11221875,"end":11554.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11553.415343750003,"end":11553.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11554.86659375,"end":11554.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11554.90034375,"end":11554.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11554.91721875,"end":11557.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11557.44846875,"end":11558.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":11559.22034375,"end":11559.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11559.372218750003,"end":11560.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11561.24534375,"end":11564.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":11564.316593750002,"end":11564.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11565.160343750002,"end":11565.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11566.24034375,"end":11566.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11567.55659375,"end":11569.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11569.73346875,"end":11571.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11571.809093750002,"end":11572.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11573.597843750002,"end":11574.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11575.352843750003,"end":11576.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11577.10784375,"end":11578.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11578.79534375,"end":11586.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11587.199093750001,"end":11588.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11589.207218750002,"end":11590.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11591.333468750003,"end":11591.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11591.87346875,"end":11595.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11595.957218750002,"end":11598.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11599.028468750003,"end":11599.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11600.344718750002,"end":11602.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11603.26409375,"end":11604.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11604.614093750002,"end":11605.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11605.727843750003,"end":11607.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11607.73596875,"end":11609.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11610.351593750001,"end":11611.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11611.70159375,"end":11612.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11612.32596875,"end":11613.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11613.59159375,"end":11615.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11616.03846875,"end":11616.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11617.45596875,"end":11618.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11618.99159375,"end":11625.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11625.67409375,"end":11626.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11626.973468750002,"end":11629.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11629.74096875,"end":11631.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11631.968468750001,"end":11634.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11635.10721875,"end":11643.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11643.44346875,"end":11668.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11669.144093750001,"end":11673.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11673.56534375,"end":11676.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11677.29471875,"end":11679.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11680.180343750002,"end":11682.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11683.21784375,"end":11685.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11686.390343750001,"end":11692.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11693.02221875,"end":11707.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":11700.379718750002,"end":11700.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":11707.29846875,"end":11707.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11707.31534375,"end":11707.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11707.73721875,"end":11710.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11710.386593750001,"end":11710.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11710.808468750001,"end":11711.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11711.500343750002,"end":11715.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11715.60096875,"end":11716.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11715.972218750001,"end":11718.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11716.461593750002,"end":11717.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11718.60471875,"end":11733.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11721.11909375,"end":11721.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11734.484093750001,"end":11740.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11740.035968750002,"end":11740.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11741.082218750002,"end":11741.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11741.099093750003,"end":11742.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11742.499718750001,"end":11749.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11749.65471875,"end":11756.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11755.34159375,"end":11755.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11756.25284375,"end":11783.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11759.391593750002,"end":11760.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11764.774718750003,"end":11764.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11764.89284375,"end":11764.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11765.989718750003,"end":11766.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11766.968468750001,"end":11767.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11767.879718750002,"end":11768.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11768.402843750002,"end":11769.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11769.16221875,"end":11769.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11772.520343750002,"end":11772.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11772.53721875,"end":11772.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11783.742218750001,"end":11789.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11786.712218750003,"end":11787.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11788.804718750001,"end":11789.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11789.074718750002,"end":11789.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11789.547218750002,"end":11789.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11789.648468750001,"end":11789.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11789.918468750002,"end":11789.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11789.969093750002,"end":11791.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11791.065968750001,"end":11791.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11791.99409375,"end":11797.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11807.08034375,"end":11812.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11810.72534375,"end":11811.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11812.379093750002,"end":11812.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11812.83471875,"end":11812.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11813.644718750002,"end":11814.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11813.661593750003,"end":11815.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11816.68221875,"end":11819.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11831.042843750001,"end":11831.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11831.97096875,"end":11837.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11837.23596875,"end":11850.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11850.786593750003,"end":11856.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11856.692843750003,"end":11856.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11856.76034375,"end":11856.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11857.941593750002,"end":11861.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11861.35034375,"end":11863.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11864.35409375,"end":11868.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11868.066593750002,"end":11905.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11906.44034375,"end":11928.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11912.12721875,"end":11912.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":11916.227843750003,"end":11916.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":11916.29534375,"end":11916.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11928.175343750001,"end":11929.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11928.37784375,"end":11930.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11929.91346875,"end":11935.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11934.53721875,"end":11946.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11947.63221875,"end":11982.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11983.15409375,"end":11985.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11986.32659375,"end":11987.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11987.659718750001,"end":11991.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11991.64221875,"end":11992.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11993.937218750001,"end":11994.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11994.59534375,"end":11997.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11997.07596875,"end":12002.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12003.066593750002,"end":12003.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12003.94409375,"end":12005.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12004.56846875,"end":12004.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12005.226593750001,"end":12010.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12011.250968750002,"end":12024.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12025.004093750002,"end":12030.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12031.551593750002,"end":12035.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12035.601593750001,"end":12036.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12035.719718750002,"end":12035.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12036.20909375,"end":12048.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12049.169093750003,"end":12049.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12049.202843750001,"end":12090.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12054.062843750002,"end":12054.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12060.15471875,"end":12060.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12091.69409375,"end":12092.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12092.84159375,"end":12102.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12102.46034375,"end":12106.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12106.797218750002,"end":12119.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12114.15471875,"end":12114.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12115.335968750001,"end":12115.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12119.031593750002,"end":12163.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12163.817843750003,"end":12173.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12173.75721875,"end":12196.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12177.33471875,"end":12177.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12196.58909375,"end":12197.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12197.38221875,"end":12202.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12202.562843750002,"end":12206.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12206.359718750002,"end":12206.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12206.410343750002,"end":12207.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12207.54096875,"end":12207.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12208.165343750003,"end":12209.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12209.633468750002,"end":12221.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12220.09596875,"end":12227.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12227.84159375,"end":12228.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12228.567218750002,"end":12251.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12251.145968750003,"end":12251.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12252.124718750001,"end":12260.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12260.44409375,"end":12268.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12268.965968750003,"end":12274.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12274.46721875,"end":12321.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12321.953468750002,"end":12326.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12326.661593750003,"end":12330.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12330.593468750001,"end":12331.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12332.820968750002,"end":12340.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12341.37659375,"end":12341.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12341.39346875,"end":12342.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12342.01784375,"end":12343.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12342.11909375,"end":12342.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12343.35096875,"end":12346.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12347.67096875,"end":12366.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12366.48659375,"end":12367.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12367.65096875,"end":12368.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12368.27534375,"end":12369.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12370.148468750001,"end":12390.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12381.218468750001,"end":12381.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12383.125343750002,"end":12384.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12390.668468750002,"end":12393.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12393.874718750001,"end":12397.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12397.739093750002,"end":12398.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12398.97096875,"end":12401.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12399.12284375,"end":12399.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12401.856593750003,"end":12403.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12403.527218750001,"end":12408.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12408.72471875,"end":12408.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12408.758468750002,"end":12409.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12409.16346875,"end":12424.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12409.19721875,"end":12409.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12418.42784375,"end":12418.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12422.59596875,"end":12423.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12424.03034375,"end":12424.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12424.23284375,"end":12424.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12424.43534375,"end":12425.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12425.954093750002,"end":12429.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12429.83534375,"end":12432.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12440.972843750002,"end":12444.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12445.00596875,"end":12446.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12446.474093750003,"end":12448.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12449.17409375,"end":12450.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12450.051593750002,"end":12453.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12452.34659375,"end":12455.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12460.817843750003,"end":12470.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12470.26784375,"end":12473.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12474.21659375,"end":12474.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12474.68909375,"end":12479.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12480.257843750001,"end":12485.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12485.77596875,"end":12486.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12487.14284375,"end":12489.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12487.176593750002,"end":12489.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12489.42096875,"end":12489.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12489.84284375,"end":12489.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12489.89346875,"end":12493.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12489.910343750002,"end":12490.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":12490.500968750002,"end":12491.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12494.43284375,"end":12500.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12501.300968750002,"end":12501.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12501.317843750003,"end":12501.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12501.621593750002,"end":12501.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12501.840968750003,"end":12501.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12501.90846875,"end":12503.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12503.410343750002,"end":12504.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12506.042843750001,"end":12508.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12508.422218750002,"end":12508.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12508.472843750002,"end":12508.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12508.489718750003,"end":12510.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12510.683468750001,"end":12511.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12512.40471875,"end":12513.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12513.653468750003,"end":12514.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12515.13846875,"end":12515.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12516.87659375,"end":12518.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12520.859093750001,"end":12523.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12525.128468750001,"end":12528.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12526.259093750003,"end":12526.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12530.27534375,"end":12533.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12533.27909375,"end":12539.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12533.29596875,"end":12533.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12541.125968750002,"end":12544.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12545.327843750001,"end":12545.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12545.395343750002,"end":12545.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12545.42909375,"end":12545.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12545.597843750002,"end":12546.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12546.84659375,"end":12548.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12549.597218750001,"end":12552.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12551.824718750002,"end":12556.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12556.27971875,"end":12556.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12556.414718750002,"end":12562.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12558.43971875,"end":12560.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12560.81909375,"end":12560.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12560.937218750001,"end":12560.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12560.97096875,"end":12561.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12561.899093750002,"end":12561.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12561.91596875,"end":12561.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12561.949718750002,"end":12562.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12562.38846875,"end":12562.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12562.523468750001,"end":12562.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12562.77659375,"end":12566.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12562.82721875,"end":12563.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12565.39221875,"end":12565.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12565.425968750002,"end":12566.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12566.77596875,"end":12567.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12567.974093750003,"end":12568.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12568.969718750002,"end":12569.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12569.35784375,"end":12571.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12571.46721875,"end":12571.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12571.78784375,"end":12573.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12573.69471875,"end":12575.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12576.664718750002,"end":12580.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12580.259093750003,"end":12580.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12580.512218750002,"end":12581.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12581.558468750001,"end":12583.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12583.70159375,"end":12584.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12584.157218750002,"end":12588.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12588.71346875,"end":12591.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12588.747218750003,"end":12590.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12591.852218750002,"end":12592.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12592.13909375,"end":12599.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12600.289718750002,"end":12605.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12605.824718750002,"end":12605.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12605.993468750003,"end":12607.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12606.027218750001,"end":12606.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12607.32659375,"end":12607.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12607.54596875,"end":12610.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12610.39784375,"end":12614.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12615.13971875,"end":12618.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12615.86534375,"end":12616.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12618.312218750001,"end":12618.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12618.531593750002,"end":12624.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12624.927218750003,"end":12625.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12625.19721875,"end":12629.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12625.21409375,"end":12625.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12629.04471875,"end":12629.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12629.31471875,"end":12629.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12629.449718750002,"end":12630.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12632.149718750003,"end":12634.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12634.32659375,"end":12636.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12636.68909375,"end":12637.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12638.37659375,"end":12640.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12641.363468750002,"end":12646.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12646.375343750002,"end":12646.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12646.695968750002,"end":12647.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12648.180968750003,"end":12653.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12653.83409375,"end":12656.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12657.63096875,"end":12670.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12669.88221875,"end":12670.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12670.692218750002,"end":12676.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12670.72596875,"end":12670.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12676.750343750002,"end":12678.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12678.809093750002,"end":12679.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12679.14659375,"end":12679.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12679.872218750003,"end":12681.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12682.20096875,"end":12683.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12683.753468750001,"end":12686.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12685.06971875,"end":12685.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12688.140968750002,"end":12690.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12690.26721875,"end":12692.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12692.17409375,"end":12692.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12692.59596875,"end":12694.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12695.24534375,"end":12699.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12699.480968750002,"end":12701.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12701.18534375,"end":12701.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12701.45534375,"end":12702.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12702.434093750002,"end":12706.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12706.78784375,"end":12708.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12709.21784375,"end":12709.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12710.078468750002,"end":12712.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12712.289093750001,"end":12715.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12714.70221875,"end":12741.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12741.972218750001,"end":12756.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12745.44846875,"end":12745.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12746.49471875,"end":12747.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12749.954093750002,"end":12750.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12750.08909375,"end":12750.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12750.13971875,"end":12750.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12750.409718750001,"end":12750.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12750.54471875,"end":12750.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12750.88221875,"end":12751.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12757.159718750001,"end":12762.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12762.239093750002,"end":12766.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12766.57596875,"end":12767.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12767.284718750001,"end":12772.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12772.49909375,"end":12772.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12773.207843750002,"end":12780.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12780.531593750002,"end":12781.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12781.965968750003,"end":12782.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12782.92784375,"end":12785.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12787.905968750001,"end":12801.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12789.407843750003,"end":12791.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12802.01346875,"end":12805.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12805.45596875,"end":12805.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12805.50659375,"end":12807.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12808.25721875,"end":12811.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12812.172218750002,"end":12821.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12821.16659375,"end":12824.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12825.452843750001,"end":12829.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12829.637843750003,"end":12837.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12838.14284375,"end":12842.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12843.47534375,"end":12852.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12852.351593750001,"end":12857.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12858.49409375,"end":12864.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12865.31159375,"end":12868.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12868.63596875,"end":12875.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12875.824718750002,"end":12880.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12881.02221875,"end":12881.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12881.039093750001,"end":12894.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12888.379718750002,"end":12889.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12894.30284375,"end":12894.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12894.31971875,"end":12894.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12894.977843750003,"end":12900.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12897.120968750001,"end":12897.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12900.917843750001,"end":12904.579718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12904.91721875,"end":12906.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12907.887218750002,"end":12910.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12910.722218750001,"end":12912.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12912.629093750002,"end":12916.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12916.476593750001,"end":12918.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12919.159718750001,"end":12921.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12921.977843750003,"end":12923.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12923.95221875,"end":12928.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12929.38596875,"end":12935.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12935.76471875,"end":12936.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12936.01784375,"end":12937.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12937.35096875,"end":12940.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12940.995968750001,"end":12942.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12942.362843750001,"end":12943.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12943.864718750003,"end":12944.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12944.62409375,"end":12946.345343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12946.480343750001,"end":12948.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12948.57284375,"end":12951.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12951.711593750002,"end":12953.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12953.567843750003,"end":12954.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12955.305968750003,"end":12959.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12959.76096875,"end":12960.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12960.01409375,"end":12968.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12960.030968750001,"end":12960.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12969.09284375,"end":12973.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12977.63159375,"end":12977.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12977.969093750002,"end":13000.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":12979.487843750001,"end":12980.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":12980.145968750003,"end":12980.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12996.683468750001,"end":12997.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":12999.231593750003,"end":13002.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13002.876593750003,"end":13020.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13013.558468750001,"end":13014.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":13014.97596875,"end":13016.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13020.797843750002,"end":13028.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13028.239718750003,"end":13032.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13033.15034375,"end":13034.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13034.90534375,"end":13035.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13036.035968750002,"end":13036.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13036.57596875,"end":13045.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13045.047218750002,"end":13046.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13046.24534375,"end":13059.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13059.52596875,"end":13069.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13070.02221875,"end":13075.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13075.72596875,"end":13078.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13078.223468750002,"end":13085.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13085.969093750002,"end":13086.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13087.20096875,"end":13088.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13088.922218750002,"end":13094.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13094.96346875,"end":13099.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13099.418468750002,"end":13101.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13100.802218750003,"end":13101.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13101.66284375,"end":13103.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13103.063468750002,"end":13103.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":13103.535968750002,"end":13103.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13103.957843750002,"end":13109.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13122.098468750002,"end":13123.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13123.414718750002,"end":13129.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13128.76409375,"end":13129.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13130.24909375,"end":13130.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13131.059093750002,"end":13131.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13132.847843750002,"end":13136.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13132.898468750001,"end":13133.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13135.530968750001,"end":13136.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13136.543468750002,"end":13137.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13137.117218750001,"end":13137.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13138.484093750001,"end":13139.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13139.88471875,"end":13139.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13140.15471875,"end":13140.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13140.99846875,"end":13141.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13141.015343750001,"end":13141.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13141.032218750002,"end":13141.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13141.285343750002,"end":13143.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13143.411593750003,"end":13147.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13147.05659375,"end":13147.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13148.406593750002,"end":13149.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13149.97596875,"end":13150.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13151.81534375,"end":13153.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13153.18221875,"end":13157.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13153.60409375,"end":13154.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13154.66721875,"end":13155.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13163.15534375,"end":13164.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13166.36159375,"end":13169.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13169.68596875,"end":13171.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13172.183468750001,"end":13176.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13177.262843750003,"end":13178.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13178.899718750003,"end":13182.173468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13182.88221875,"end":13191.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13192.16346875,"end":13193.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13194.660968750002,"end":13199.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13200.01034375,"end":13202.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13203.06471875,"end":13207.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13206.524093750002,"end":13209.173468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13209.173468750003,"end":13210.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13209.645968750003,"end":13216.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13216.88534375,"end":13217.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13217.30721875,"end":13220.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13220.226593750001,"end":13220.564093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13220.93534375,"end":13223.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13223.48346875,"end":13224.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13224.934718750003,"end":13225.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13226.26784375,"end":13226.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13227.617843750002,"end":13236.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13236.848468750002,"end":13241.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13242.19784375,"end":13245.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13245.20159375,"end":13245.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13246.484093750001,"end":13247.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13247.53034375,"end":13251.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13251.715343750002,"end":13254.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13255.00596875,"end":13256.423468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13256.929718750001,"end":13257.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13257.317843750003,"end":13261.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13261.992218750001,"end":13263.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13263.96659375,"end":13267.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13267.527218750001,"end":13268.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13269.079718750003,"end":13277.095343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13277.46659375,"end":13277.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13278.42846875,"end":13279.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13279.99784375,"end":13280.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13280.571593750003,"end":13293.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13293.83534375,"end":13295.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13295.94471875,"end":13296.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13297.56471875,"end":13298.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13299.167843750001,"end":13302.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13303.184093750002,"end":13305.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13305.58034375,"end":13306.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13306.778468750003,"end":13322.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13323.24846875,"end":13327.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13328.344718750002,"end":13330.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13331.399093750002,"end":13332.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13333.238468750002,"end":13336.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13337.22096875,"end":13355.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13355.378468750001,"end":13360.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13360.64346875,"end":13380.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13380.437843750002,"end":13410.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13410.72846875,"end":13411.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13411.454093750002,"end":13412.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13412.41596875,"end":13413.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13413.73221875,"end":13414.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13414.862843750001,"end":13416.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13416.70221875,"end":13417.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13417.765343750001,"end":13432.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13431.34971875,"end":13453.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13454.333468750003,"end":13464.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13465.065968750001,"end":13466.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13466.500343750002,"end":13471.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13472.355968750002,"end":13476.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13477.485968750003,"end":13478.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13478.312843750002,"end":13483.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13483.61159375,"end":13487.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13487.425343750001,"end":13489.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13489.079093750002,"end":13491.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13492.234718750002,"end":13493.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13494.040343750003,"end":13494.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13495.086593750002,"end":13504.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13504.519718750002,"end":13510.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13511.269718750002,"end":13515.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13515.083468750003,"end":13516.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13517.564093750003,"end":13519.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13520.16284375,"end":13521.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13522.49159375,"end":13524.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13524.63471875,"end":13527.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13528.06034375,"end":13529.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13529.49471875,"end":13530.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13531.148468750001,"end":13532.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13532.92034375,"end":13534.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13534.13534375,"end":13535.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13535.856593750003,"end":13536.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13536.49784375,"end":13546.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13546.757843750001,"end":13573.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13573.859093750001,"end":13578.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13578.53346875,"end":13582.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13582.785968750002,"end":13583.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13583.528468750003,"end":13585.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13585.80659375,"end":13593.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13594.125968750002,"end":13611.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13611.827843750001,"end":13612.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13612.536593750003,"end":13616.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13616.637218750002,"end":13629.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13630.00221875,"end":13632.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13632.719093750002,"end":13637.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13638.000968750002,"end":13638.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13638.642218750003,"end":13640.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13640.954093750002,"end":13642.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13642.60784375,"end":13643.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13644.261593750001,"end":13646.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13646.640968750002,"end":13647.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13648.227218750002,"end":13648.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13648.68284375,"end":13649.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13650.555968750003,"end":13651.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13651.602218750002,"end":13652.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13652.294093750003,"end":13653.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13654.285343750002,"end":13659.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13659.938468750002,"end":13662.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13663.17846875,"end":13663.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13663.684718750003,"end":13666.485968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13666.85721875,"end":13678.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13678.78784375,"end":13680.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":13681.015343750001,"end":13681.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13681.808468750001,"end":13683.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13683.445343750001,"end":13683.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13684.17096875,"end":13687.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13688.575343750003,"end":13692.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13692.203468750002,"end":13697.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13698.632843750001,"end":13703.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13703.40846875,"end":13710.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13711.035968750002,"end":13720.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13720.80659375,"end":13723.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13723.894718750002,"end":13724.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13725.632843750001,"end":13727.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13728.40034375,"end":13730.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13731.35346875,"end":13733.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13733.63159375,"end":13736.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13737.37784375,"end":13741.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13741.32659375,"end":13746.642218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13747.114718750003,"end":13749.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13749.274718750003,"end":13750.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13750.540343750003,"end":13751.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13752.109718750002,"end":13754.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13755.501593750003,"end":13756.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13757.762843750003,"end":13772.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13772.612843750001,"end":13776.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13776.308468750001,"end":13776.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13777.320968750002,"end":13778.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13778.19846875,"end":13798.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13796.474093750003,"end":13797.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13798.887218750002,"end":13803.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13803.105968750002,"end":13803.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13803.13971875,"end":13805.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13806.177218750003,"end":13810.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13810.31159375,"end":13817.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13817.21346875,"end":13820.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13820.622218750003,"end":13826.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13826.460968750001,"end":13832.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13831.894718750002,"end":13834.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13834.18971875,"end":13846.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13846.812218750001,"end":13847.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13848.06096875,"end":13848.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13848.870968750001,"end":13849.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13849.79909375,"end":13850.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13850.777843750002,"end":13851.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13851.55409375,"end":13853.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13853.528468750003,"end":13856.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13856.81909375,"end":13873.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13874.453468750002,"end":13874.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13875.246593750002,"end":13876.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13877.06909375,"end":13878.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13879.043468750002,"end":13881.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13881.355343750001,"end":13882.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13882.840343750002,"end":13885.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13885.962218750003,"end":13886.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13888.25721875,"end":13896.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13896.930968750003,"end":13899.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13899.816593750002,"end":13914.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13915.24034375,"end":13918.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13921.26471875,"end":13922.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":13924.352843750003,"end":13945.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":13945.699718750002,"end":13949.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13949.395343750002,"end":13951.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":13950.019718750002,"end":13950.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13951.285343750002,"end":13951.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":13951.302218750003,"end":13951.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13951.757843750001,"end":13951.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":13951.859093750001,"end":13951.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13951.96034375,"end":13953.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":13953.040343750003,"end":13954.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13954.035968750002,"end":13956.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13956.398468750001,"end":13960.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13960.90409375,"end":13961.376593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13961.64659375,"end":13975.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":13975.58534375,"end":13975.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13975.73721875,"end":13975.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":13975.872218750003,"end":13975.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13975.973468750002,"end":13976.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13977.47534375,"end":13983.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13995.548468750003,"end":13998.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13998.41721875,"end":14000.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14006.449718750002,"end":14008.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14008.91346875,"end":14013.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14014.583468750003,"end":14019.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14019.96659375,"end":14020.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14020.28721875,"end":14023.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14023.628468750001,"end":14024.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14025.923468750003,"end":14026.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14027.57721875,"end":14032.251593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14033.88846875,"end":14035.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14036.01471875,"end":14037.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14037.719093750002,"end":14051.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14051.539718750002,"end":14054.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14055.94409375,"end":14057.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14057.918468750002,"end":14059.251593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14060.331593750001,"end":14062.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14063.402843750002,"end":14064.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14065.191593750002,"end":14065.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14065.664093750001,"end":14072.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14072.802218750003,"end":14077.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14078.387843750003,"end":14082.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14082.910343750002,"end":14084.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14085.407843750003,"end":14087.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14087.41596875,"end":14089.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14089.879718750002,"end":14094.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14094.452843750001,"end":14098.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14099.380343750003,"end":14103.548468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14104.020968750003,"end":14104.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14104.45971875,"end":14104.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14105.117843750002,"end":14110.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14111.175968750002,"end":14113.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14114.41596875,"end":14114.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14115.20909375,"end":14120.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":14121.38534375,"end":14132.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":14132.910968750002,"end":14137.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":14137.88909375,"end":14179.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14167.859093750001,"end":14169.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14179.722218750001,"end":14183.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14183.60346875,"end":14186.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14186.387843750003,"end":14192.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14192.58096875,"end":14195.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14196.597218750001,"end":14198.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14199.195968750002,"end":14200.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14201.237843750001,"end":14204.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14204.612843750001,"end":14209.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14209.540343750003,"end":14210.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14211.39659375,"end":14213.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14214.02909375,"end":14217.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14218.09596875,"end":14221.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14222.129093750002,"end":14227.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14228.187218750001,"end":14250.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14250.79971875,"end":14258.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14253.668468750002,"end":14254.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14258.106593750003,"end":14258.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14258.832218750002,"end":14274.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14266.004093750002,"end":14266.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14273.699093750001,"end":14278.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14279.352218750002,"end":14280.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14281.12409375,"end":14282.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14282.676593750002,"end":14284.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14285.460968750001,"end":14286.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14287.047218750002,"end":14290.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14291.60346875,"end":14297.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14297.644718750002,"end":14297.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14298.809093750002,"end":14304.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14305.677218750003,"end":14307.314093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14308.00596875,"end":14314.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14315.312843750002,"end":14318.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14319.582218750002,"end":14323.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14323.93596875,"end":14324.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14325.387218750002,"end":14326.720343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14326.99034375,"end":14332.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14332.727843750003,"end":14339.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14340.33846875,"end":14352.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14353.14659375,"end":14354.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14355.10409375,"end":14356.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14357.179718750001,"end":14361.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14361.95534375,"end":14369.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14369.464718750001,"end":14376.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14377.14284375,"end":14409.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14408.26034375,"end":14414.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14415.58409375,"end":14418.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14418.469718750002,"end":14418.689093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14418.992843750002,"end":14422.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14423.042843750001,"end":14425.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14425.844093750002,"end":14427.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14428.72971875,"end":14431.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14432.324093750001,"end":14434.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14434.66971875,"end":14436.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14437.555343750002,"end":14439.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14439.816593750002,"end":14445.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14446.262843750003,"end":14448.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14449.266593750002,"end":14455.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14456.370968750001,"end":14465.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14466.20909375,"end":14469.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":14471.06909375,"end":14482.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14482.45971875,"end":14484.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":14484.535343750002,"end":14488.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14487.74159375,"end":14490.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":14489.074718750002,"end":14490.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":14490.340343750002,"end":14498.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14491.403468750003,"end":14491.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14492.78721875,"end":14493.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14498.625968750002,"end":14507.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14507.55284375,"end":14511.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14511.24846875,"end":14515.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14515.63596875,"end":14521.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14522.132843750001,"end":14527.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14528.59596875,"end":14530.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":14531.515343750001,"end":14542.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14543.26034375,"end":14546.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14547.782843750003,"end":14549.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14550.11159375,"end":14551.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14551.95096875,"end":14557.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14557.890968750002,"end":14558.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14559.055343750002,"end":14581.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14581.735343750002,"end":14581.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14581.887218750002,"end":14582.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14582.27534375,"end":14582.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14582.32596875,"end":14582.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14582.81534375,"end":14583.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14584.620968750001,"end":14584.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14584.637843750003,"end":14590.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14600.500343750002,"end":14603.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14603.976593750001,"end":14609.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14605.984718750002,"end":14606.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14610.65909375,"end":14614.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14620.31159375,"end":14620.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14621.10471875,"end":14633.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14633.980343750001,"end":14634.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":14634.030968750001,"end":14644.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":14644.56096875,"end":14649.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14647.395968750003,"end":14648.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":14650.062218750001,"end":14653.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":14653.63971875,"end":14657.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14654.68596875,"end":14655.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":14657.58846875,"end":14663.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":14664.33846875,"end":14671.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14669.384093750003,"end":14671.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14671.965968750003,"end":14673.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14675.35784375,"end":14677.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14677.922843750002,"end":14678.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14678.04096875,"end":14680.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14681.095343750003,"end":14682.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14683.64346875,"end":14685.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14685.17909375,"end":14693.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14693.734718750002,"end":14697.126593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14697.430343750002,"end":14700.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14701.73346875,"end":14709.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14709.90096875,"end":14709.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14709.917843750001,"end":14710.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14710.10346875,"end":14714.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14714.457218750002,"end":14715.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14714.64284375,"end":14718.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14715.739718750003,"end":14716.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14718.18659375,"end":14726.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14721.308468750001,"end":14721.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14724.329093750002,"end":14724.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14725.577843750001,"end":14729.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14731.770968750003,"end":14733.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14734.16721875,"end":14737.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14738.200343750003,"end":14743.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14743.954718750003,"end":14747.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14747.633468750002,"end":14750.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14750.485343750002,"end":14751.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14752.999718750001,"end":14754.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14754.34971875,"end":14757.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14757.57284375,"end":14759.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14760.77909375,"end":14761.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14762.06159375,"end":14762.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14763.833468750003,"end":14774.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14775.156593750002,"end":14776.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14777.519093750001,"end":14778.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14779.425968750002,"end":14787.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14788.015343750001,"end":14790.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14790.782843750003,"end":14800.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14800.85721875,"end":14801.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14801.27909375,"end":14802.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14802.055343750002,"end":14809.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14809.851593750001,"end":14823.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14824.161593750003,"end":14826.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14826.49034375,"end":14827.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14827.890968750002,"end":14831.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14832.683468750001,"end":14833.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14835.04596875,"end":14842.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14842.808468750001,"end":14853.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14854.65471875,"end":14855.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14856.12284375,"end":14860.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14861.45534375,"end":14897.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14894.918468750002,"end":14895.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14897.280968750001,"end":14897.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14897.46659375,"end":14903.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14904.43596875,"end":14905.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14906.427218750003,"end":14909.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14910.578468750002,"end":14915.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14916.906593750002,"end":14923.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14923.53846875,"end":14935.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14935.941593750002,"end":14943.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14944.328468750002,"end":14948.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14949.52596875,"end":14951.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14952.00659375,"end":14960.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14960.882843750001,"end":14963.279093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14963.430968750003,"end":14975.091593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14976.25596875,"end":14992.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14992.742843750002,"end":14996.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15000.758468750002,"end":15007.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15006.917843750001,"end":15009.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15010.157843750003,"end":15010.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15010.22534375,"end":15012.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15014.29221875,"end":15014.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15014.832218750002,"end":15015.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15016.03034375,"end":15017.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15017.582843750002,"end":15020.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15020.50221875,"end":15023.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15023.03346875,"end":15030.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15030.458468750003,"end":15031.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15032.38221875,"end":15032.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15032.399093750002,"end":15032.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15032.567843750003,"end":15032.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15032.73659375,"end":15033.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15034.238468750002,"end":15042.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15040.583468750003,"end":15046.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15043.87409375,"end":15044.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15047.417843750001,"end":15052.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15052.767218750003,"end":15060.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15061.37346875,"end":15067.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15068.07284375,"end":15068.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15068.39346875,"end":15069.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15069.591593750003,"end":15071.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":15071.59971875,"end":15082.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15077.97846875,"end":15078.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15080.543468750002,"end":15085.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15086.06159375,"end":15090.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15090.63471875,"end":15092.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15092.828468750002,"end":15093.689093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15094.043468750002,"end":15094.954718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15095.309093750002,"end":15102.126593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15102.480968750002,"end":15110.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15110.395343750002,"end":15133.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":15133.68284375,"end":15147.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15147.80721875,"end":15153.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15164.41221875,"end":15179.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15171.668468750002,"end":15172.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15172.79909375,"end":15172.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15175.060343750003,"end":15175.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15175.094093750002,"end":15175.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15175.937843750002,"end":15175.954718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15179.22846875,"end":15181.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15185.77596875,"end":15186.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15186.687218750001,"end":15208.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15208.388468750003,"end":15210.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15211.122218750003,"end":15218.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15219.05346875,"end":15223.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15219.37409375,"end":15221.095343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15223.457843750002,"end":15228.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15228.60471875,"end":15230.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15230.39346875,"end":15237.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15236.890343750001,"end":15239.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15239.03346875,"end":15249.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15250.47471875,"end":15253.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15252.499718750001,"end":15253.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15253.86659375,"end":15261.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15262.844093750002,"end":15263.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15263.50221875,"end":15270.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15268.73346875,"end":15269.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15271.332218750002,"end":15282.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15283.094093750002,"end":15284.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15284.96721875,"end":15285.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15286.165343750003,"end":15289.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15290.046593750001,"end":15292.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15293.185343750003,"end":15294.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15294.585968750001,"end":15300.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15300.407843750003,"end":15303.360968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15303.42846875,"end":15305.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15306.48284375,"end":15307.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15308.355968750002,"end":15308.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15309.368468750003,"end":15313.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15313.587218750003,"end":15314.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15315.122843750003,"end":15315.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15316.33784375,"end":15318.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15318.852218750002,"end":15328.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15329.280968750001,"end":15333.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15334.242218750001,"end":15337.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15338.579093750002,"end":15339.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15340.33409375,"end":15341.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15340.60409375,"end":15342.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15342.105968750002,"end":15350.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15350.070968750002,"end":15351.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15352.14659375,"end":15353.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15354.441593750002,"end":15362.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15362.997218750003,"end":15365.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15366.91221875,"end":15367.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15368.44784375,"end":15370.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15371.282843750003,"end":15378.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15381.492218750001,"end":15382.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15382.909718750001,"end":15383.888468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15384.074093750001,"end":15395.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15395.481593750003,"end":15399.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15399.76784375,"end":15400.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15399.93659375,"end":15402.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15402.78846875,"end":15404.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15403.395968750003,"end":15405.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15405.30284375,"end":15406.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15407.243468750003,"end":15408.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15408.407843750003,"end":15417.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15417.55409375,"end":15425.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15425.232218750003,"end":15426.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15427.25721875,"end":15429.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15429.265343750001,"end":15430.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15431.35784375,"end":15431.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15432.57284375,"end":15435.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15435.441593750002,"end":15445.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15445.887218750002,"end":15448.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15449.144093750001,"end":15451.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15452.519093750001,"end":15453.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15454.392218750003,"end":15457.294718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15458.138468750003,"end":15460.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15460.31534375,"end":15468.314093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15468.415343750003,"end":15474.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15476.211593750002,"end":15476.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15478.422218750002,"end":15487.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15487.58534375,"end":15490.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15490.69034375,"end":15495.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15496.140968750002,"end":15500.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15500.477843750003,"end":15508.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15508.527218750001,"end":15514.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15514.399718750003,"end":15516.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15516.72846875,"end":15524.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15524.44034375,"end":15525.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15525.030968750001,"end":15526.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15526.296593750001,"end":15532.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15532.624718750001,"end":15532.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15533.805968750003,"end":15539.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15539.99909375,"end":15554.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15554.91659375,"end":15559.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15559.70909375,"end":15560.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15560.940968750001,"end":15561.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15561.81846875,"end":15564.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15565.31159375,"end":15596.985968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15597.087218750003,"end":15597.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15597.30659375,"end":15598.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15599.517218750003,"end":15607.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15607.87034375,"end":15609.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15609.574718750002,"end":15614.282843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15614.468468750001,"end":15619.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15620.35784375,"end":15640.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15637.587218750003,"end":15637.857218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15641.114093750002,"end":15642.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15642.008468750002,"end":15647.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15642.02534375,"end":15645.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15647.15534375,"end":15652.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15652.707218750002,"end":15670.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15670.965968750003,"end":15674.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":15675.25221875,"end":15675.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15675.387218750002,"end":15681.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15681.175343750001,"end":15681.732218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15682.154093750003,"end":15685.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15684.128468750001,"end":15684.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15685.512218750002,"end":15686.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15685.59659375,"end":15685.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15686.01846875,"end":15686.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15686.794718750003,"end":15687.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15686.96346875,"end":15686.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15686.980343750001,"end":15692.751593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15707.702843750001,"end":15710.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15710.85846875,"end":15715.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15724.206593750001,"end":15725.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15726.09659375,"end":15730.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15731.091593750003,"end":15731.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15732.32346875,"end":15737.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15738.263468750003,"end":15739.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15740.69346875,"end":15744.642218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15745.367843750002,"end":15747.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15747.34221875,"end":15749.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15750.059093750002,"end":15750.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15750.970343750003,"end":15752.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15752.792843750001,"end":15754.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15755.340968750003,"end":15758.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15759.10409375,"end":15769.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15770.27534375,"end":15773.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15773.700968750003,"end":15774.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15774.91596875,"end":15779.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15780.14721875,"end":15780.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15781.919093750003,"end":15786.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15786.62721875,"end":15794.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15794.828468750002,"end":15799.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15799.35096875,"end":15804.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15804.41346875,"end":15807.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15805.442843750003,"end":15805.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15807.40034375,"end":15808.294718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15808.868468750003,"end":15811.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15812.05784375,"end":15813.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15813.37409375,"end":15816.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15817.10346875,"end":15823.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15823.769093750001,"end":15825.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":15825.034718750001,"end":15825.169718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15825.169718750003,"end":15825.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":15825.203468750002,"end":15825.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15825.574718750002,"end":15827.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15828.02159375,"end":15828.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15829.624718750001,"end":15834.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15834.450968750003,"end":15840.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15840.74534375,"end":15845.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15845.250968750002,"end":15845.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15846.297218750002,"end":15848.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15848.74409375,"end":15852.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15852.203468750002,"end":15857.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15856.472843750002,"end":15861.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15864.505343750003,"end":15868.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15868.909718750001,"end":15869.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15870.192218750002,"end":15872.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15872.68971875,"end":15873.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15873.769718750002,"end":15874.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15877.07721875,"end":15877.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15878.64659375,"end":15880.064093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15880.587218750003,"end":15881.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15885.480968750002,"end":15888.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15888.737843750001,"end":15890.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15892.46721875,"end":15893.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15893.73284375,"end":15897.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15897.95159375,"end":15899.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15897.985343750002,"end":15903.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15903.199718750002,"end":15906.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15906.76034375,"end":15909.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15908.12721875,"end":15911.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15911.789093750001,"end":15913.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15912.734093750001,"end":15913.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15914.08409375,"end":15914.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15915.29909375,"end":15916.767218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15916.19346875,"end":15918.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15919.230968750002,"end":15919.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15920.95221875,"end":15923.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15923.83784375,"end":15927.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15925.27221875,"end":15925.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15927.95534375,"end":15930.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15929.136593750001,"end":15934.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15935.160968750002,"end":15936.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15939.312218750001,"end":15940.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15942.552218750003,"end":15942.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15942.957218750002,"end":15947.935343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15946.180343750002,"end":15947.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15947.935343750003,"end":15949.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15951.00659375,"end":15963.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":15961.722218750001,"end":15962.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15963.03846875,"end":15968.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15969.29909375,"end":15979.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15981.044093750003,"end":15982.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15983.845343750003,"end":15988.907843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":15990.02159375,"end":15990.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15990.71346875,"end":15990.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15990.966593750003,"end":15992.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15992.519093750001,"end":15992.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15992.535968750002,"end":16000.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16000.04534375,"end":16007.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16003.555343750002,"end":16003.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16008.21284375,"end":16010.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16011.33471875,"end":16018.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16019.333468750003,"end":16020.548468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16020.09284375,"end":16021.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16021.56096875,"end":16022.657843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16022.742218750001,"end":16025.560343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16025.965343750002,"end":16027.720343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16026.10034375,"end":16026.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16026.134093750003,"end":16026.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16028.00721875,"end":16029.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16029.863468750002,"end":16031.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16031.80409375,"end":16041.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16039.27971875,"end":16039.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16039.769093750001,"end":16042.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16042.03034375,"end":16044.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16043.34659375,"end":16046.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16046.434718750003,"end":16046.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16047.56534375,"end":16059.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16060.356593750003,"end":16061.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16063.00596875,"end":16064.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16065.030968750001,"end":16065.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16068.034718750001,"end":16071.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16071.76409375,"end":16073.654093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16075.223468750002,"end":16076.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16077.062843750002,"end":16078.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16079.610968750003,"end":16083.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16083.812843750002,"end":16085.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16085.58471875,"end":16087.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16088.301593750002,"end":16089.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16090.714718750001,"end":16093.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16095.456593750001,"end":16102.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16103.438468750002,"end":16109.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16109.83409375,"end":16110.357218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16110.99846875,"end":16113.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16113.74909375,"end":16116.685343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16117.343468750001,"end":16117.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16119.081593750001,"end":16119.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16120.65096875,"end":16122.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16122.945968750002,"end":16124.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16125.527843750002,"end":16128.075968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16129.695968750002,"end":16131.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16132.19346875,"end":16135.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16135.73721875,"end":16143.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16142.925968750002,"end":16142.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16142.942843750003,"end":16143.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16143.22971875,"end":16147.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16147.313468750002,"end":16155.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16147.70159375,"end":16148.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16149.49034375,"end":16150.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16150.367843750002,"end":16150.435343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16150.435343750003,"end":16150.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16150.55346875,"end":16150.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16152.46034375,"end":16152.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16155.531593750002,"end":16155.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16155.56534375,"end":16156.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16155.750968750002,"end":16158.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16159.176593750002,"end":16161.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16161.67409375,"end":16163.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16162.028468750003,"end":16162.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16164.00284375,"end":16165.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16164.67784375,"end":16166.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16167.141593750002,"end":16167.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16167.192218750002,"end":16178.700968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16173.250343750002,"end":16173.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16176.743468750003,"end":16183.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":16184.08409375,"end":16189.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16197.75284375,"end":16204.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16201.414718750002,"end":16201.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16201.43159375,"end":16201.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16201.465343750002,"end":16201.532843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":16201.532843750003,"end":16201.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16201.87034375,"end":16202.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":16202.055968750003,"end":16203.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":16204.70534375,"end":16206.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":16206.831593750001,"end":16207.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":16212.46784375,"end":16212.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16212.552218750003,"end":16212.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16213.14284375,"end":16213.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16214.77971875,"end":16257.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16258.570343750001,"end":16262.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16262.738468750002,"end":16280.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16267.480343750001,"end":16267.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16269.640343750001,"end":16270.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16272.94784375,"end":16273.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16278.989093750002,"end":16322.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16280.609093750001,"end":16281.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16321.09221875,"end":16322.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16322.965343750002,"end":16323.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16323.117218750001,"end":16323.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16323.77534375,"end":16327.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16325.83409375,"end":16325.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16327.234718750002,"end":16335.216593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16333.49534375,"end":16345.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16346.067218750002,"end":16351.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16352.142218750003,"end":16361.794718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16362.149093750002,"end":16364.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16364.950343750003,"end":16367.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16368.308468750001,"end":16370.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16372.30784375,"end":16375.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16375.04159375,"end":16381.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16382.517218750003,"end":16386.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16384.84596875,"end":16385.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16385.26784375,"end":16385.335343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16386.63471875,"end":16387.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16387.69784375,"end":16398.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16398.514718749997,"end":16404.724718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16398.531593749998,"end":16399.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16405.129718750002,"end":16408.200968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16408.437218749998,"end":16410.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16410.66471875,"end":16413.162218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16411.187843749998,"end":16411.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":16411.457843750002,"end":16411.491593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":16411.491593749997,"end":16411.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16413.65159375,"end":16417.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16413.83721875,"end":16413.904718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16416.672218749998,"end":16424.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16417.920968749997,"end":16418.460968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16420.334093750003,"end":16420.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16422.325343750003,"end":16422.544718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16424.18159375,"end":16436.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16435.605968750002,"end":16436.264093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16436.669093750003,"end":16446.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16444.54971875,"end":16448.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16446.96284375,"end":16446.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16448.093468749998,"end":16453.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16449.460343749997,"end":16451.249093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16453.544093750003,"end":16459.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16456.88534375,"end":16458.539093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16459.01159375,"end":16459.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16459.60221875,"end":16462.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16462.57221875,"end":16462.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16462.97721875,"end":16487.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16463.179718749998,"end":16463.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16463.23034375,"end":16463.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16479.66659375,"end":16479.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16486.264718749997,"end":16486.467218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16487.66534375,"end":16492.997843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16491.445343749998,"end":16494.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16494.297218749998,"end":16497.638468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16496.11971875,"end":16499.781593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16499.781593749998,"end":16504.405343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16504.624718749998,"end":16533.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16533.936593749997,"end":16538.695343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16539.437843749998,"end":16554.625343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16539.960968749998,"end":16542.390968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16554.13596875,"end":16555.469093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16555.51971875,"end":16556.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16556.14409375,"end":16559.873468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":16556.88659375,"end":16556.920343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":16560.78471875,"end":16564.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":16564.733468749997,"end":16567.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":16567.72034375,"end":16570.842218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":16571.770343750002,"end":16574.234093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":16577.10284375,"end":16578.030968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":16578.92534375,"end":16581.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":16582.148468749998,"end":16583.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":16583.88659375,"end":16584.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":16585.590968750003,"end":16592.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16593.117218749998,"end":16602.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16603.022843749997,"end":16605.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16606.043468750002,"end":16606.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16606.887218750002,"end":16607.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16608.54096875,"end":16618.615343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16612.489718750003,"end":16612.506593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":16612.506593750004,"end":16612.844093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16618.834718750004,"end":16624.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16618.86846875,"end":16619.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16623.40784375,"end":16625.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16625.871593750002,"end":16626.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16626.07409375,"end":16626.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16626.344093749998,"end":16631.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16632.132218749997,"end":16639.084718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16632.28409375,"end":16632.554093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16635.43971875,"end":16642.898468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16639.084718750004,"end":16639.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16645.66596875,"end":16649.007218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16649.69909375,"end":16654.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16651.13346875,"end":16657.242218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16657.664093749998,"end":16663.232843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16662.35534375,"end":16666.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16666.607843750004,"end":16666.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16666.64159375,"end":16666.928468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16666.928468750004,"end":16666.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16666.96221875,"end":16667.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16667.029718750004,"end":16667.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16667.09721875,"end":16667.130968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16667.130968750003,"end":16668.210968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16667.28284375,"end":16667.451593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16668.210968749998,"end":16668.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16668.22784375,"end":16669.375343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16668.801593750002,"end":16673.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16673.560343750003,"end":16678.116593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16678.605968750002,"end":16680.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16680.24284375,"end":16688.967218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16689.22034375,"end":16693.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16691.903468750003,"end":16695.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16693.523468749998,"end":16693.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16695.97034375,"end":16699.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16698.029093750003,"end":16698.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16698.07971875,"end":16698.265343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16698.265343749998,"end":16698.788468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16699.02471875,"end":16701.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16702.129718750002,"end":16704.576593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16704.576593750004,"end":16711.849718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16706.83784375,"end":16708.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16711.124093749997,"end":16713.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16715.545343750004,"end":16716.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16716.52409375,"end":16718.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16718.717843749997,"end":16722.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16722.14346875,"end":16724.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16725.332843750002,"end":16741.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16730.66534375,"end":16730.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16730.78346875,"end":16730.969093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16730.969093749998,"end":16731.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16739.64284375,"end":16742.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16743.77721875,"end":16749.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16749.177218750003,"end":16750.240343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16750.324718750002,"end":16752.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16753.44659375,"end":16756.686593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16758.71159375,"end":16760.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16760.65221875,"end":16777.679093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16777.780343749997,"end":16780.007843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16780.311593749997,"end":16795.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16795.02659375,"end":16800.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16801.33784375,"end":16807.733468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16806.73784375,"end":16810.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":16808.32409375,"end":16808.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16808.965343750002,"end":16813.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16811.68221875,"end":16811.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16813.80846875,"end":16817.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16814.922218749998,"end":16815.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16817.60534375,"end":16817.655968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16817.655968749998,"end":16817.959718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16817.959718750004,"end":16818.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_41","start":16818.43221875,"end":16819.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":16819.309718750003,"end":16819.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":16820.997218750003,"end":16825.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16835.07096875,"end":16837.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16837.51784375,"end":16838.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":16838.80034375,"end":16843.390343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16838.850968749997,"end":16839.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":16843.82909375,"end":16845.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16848.46971875,"end":16849.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16849.397843749997,"end":16851.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":16849.76909375,"end":16850.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16851.43971875,"end":16861.109093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16861.76721875,"end":16865.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16865.429093749997,"end":16867.335968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16867.89284375,"end":16869.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16870.22159375,"end":16871.234093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16871.79096875,"end":16875.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16876.75221875,"end":16878.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16879.51971875,"end":16881.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16882.067843750003,"end":16884.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16885.358468749997,"end":16889.459093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16890.87659375,"end":16891.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16892.58096875,"end":16894.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16894.859093749998,"end":16895.922218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16897.559093750002,"end":16898.537843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16900.005968750003,"end":16900.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16901.794718750003,"end":16902.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16902.435968750004,"end":16903.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16903.56659375,"end":16904.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16904.764718749997,"end":16905.912218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16905.96284375,"end":16905.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16906.553468750004,"end":16908.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16909.05096875,"end":16911.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16911.97034375,"end":16914.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16914.70409375,"end":16917.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16918.770968750003,"end":16921.420343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16922.888468750003,"end":16925.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16927.05659375,"end":16937.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16938.396593750003,"end":16943.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16943.779718750004,"end":16944.218468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16945.146593750003,"end":16945.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16947.01971875,"end":16955.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16955.069093750004,"end":16960.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16960.78971875,"end":16968.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16969.514093750004,"end":16972.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16974.272843749997,"end":16976.382218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16977.14159375,"end":16979.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16980.12846875,"end":16980.803468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16982.72721875,"end":16984.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":16985.460968749998,"end":16990.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16992.615968750004,"end":16993.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16994.65784375,"end":16997.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16998.387218750002,"end":16999.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17000.547218749998,"end":17003.888468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17004.749093749997,"end":17009.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17010.14909375,"end":17011.195343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17012.29221875,"end":17017.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17016.17346875,"end":17022.872843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17017.77659375,"end":17019.194093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17021.944718749997,"end":17033.537843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17032.272218750004,"end":17033.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17033.80784375,"end":17033.858468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17034.145343750002,"end":17034.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17034.33096875,"end":17035.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17036.30534375,"end":17039.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17039.89971875,"end":17041.874093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17043.561593749997,"end":17045.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17047.122218750003,"end":17049.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17051.81346875,"end":17055.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17055.96471875,"end":17057.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17057.43284375,"end":17057.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17057.922218749998,"end":17059.997843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17060.18346875,"end":17061.719093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17065.515968749998,"end":17065.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17066.629718750002,"end":17067.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17067.84471875,"end":17069.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17071.35471875,"end":17075.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17076.80534375,"end":17078.256593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17080.365968750004,"end":17093.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17093.83221875,"end":17102.927843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17101.375343749998,"end":17120.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17109.32346875,"end":17109.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17116.25909375,"end":17116.664093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17120.25846875,"end":17123.498468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17122.148468749998,"end":17127.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17129.590343750002,"end":17130.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17131.075343750003,"end":17132.273468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17133.117218749998,"end":17136.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17138.382218749997,"end":17146.819718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17148.01784375,"end":17150.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17151.29159375,"end":17152.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17152.405343749997,"end":17153.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17153.569718749997,"end":17153.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17153.58659375,"end":17153.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17153.789093749998,"end":17157.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17157.906593749998,"end":17158.193468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17159.50971875,"end":17162.732843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17161.349093750003,"end":17167.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17167.997843750003,"end":17168.014718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17168.014718749997,"end":17168.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17168.031593749998,"end":17168.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17168.200343750003,"end":17168.740343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17169.43221875,"end":17171.085968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17171.94659375,"end":17174.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17175.64221875,"end":17175.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17176.452218749997,"end":17177.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17177.920343750004,"end":17180.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17180.114093750002,"end":17180.468468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17181.177218750003,"end":17182.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17183.910968750002,"end":17185.007843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17185.05846875,"end":17185.632218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17186.762843750003,"end":17187.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17189.66534375,"end":17190.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17192.584718750004,"end":17192.922218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17193.225968749997,"end":17197.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17197.81596875,"end":17199.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17200.11096875,"end":17200.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17200.41471875,"end":17202.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17202.895343750002,"end":17204.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17204.819093750004,"end":17206.827218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17207.789093749998,"end":17208.615968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17209.645343750002,"end":17210.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17210.590343750002,"end":17211.569093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17211.569093750004,"end":17213.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17212.176593750002,"end":17213.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17214.083468750003,"end":17220.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17220.69846875,"end":17221.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17222.28471875,"end":17224.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17224.68096875,"end":17227.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17228.528468750003,"end":17229.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17229.13596875,"end":17230.671593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17232.105968750002,"end":17238.687218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17239.22721875,"end":17239.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17239.834718750004,"end":17245.234718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17245.69034375,"end":17246.804093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17247.630968750003,"end":17256.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17257.013468750003,"end":17259.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17259.747218750003,"end":17263.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17264.303468750004,"end":17271.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17272.757843749998,"end":17273.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17274.428468750004,"end":17275.373468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17276.115968750004,"end":17277.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":17279.406593749998,"end":17280.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17281.34721875,"end":17283.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17283.97971875,"end":17287.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17288.09721875,"end":17291.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17291.843468749998,"end":17293.716593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17294.10471875,"end":17300.922218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17301.765968749998,"end":17304.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17305.545968749997,"end":17311.890968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17312.717843749997,"end":17314.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17315.552843750003,"end":17319.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17320.210343749997,"end":17320.952843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17321.62784375,"end":17331.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17332.664093749998,"end":17333.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17335.904093750003,"end":17336.764718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17337.929093749997,"end":17343.818468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17344.42596875,"end":17345.826593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17346.63659375,"end":17347.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17348.239718750003,"end":17349.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17350.07909375,"end":17351.749718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17352.492218749998,"end":17355.428468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17357.622218750003,"end":17360.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17360.87909375,"end":17403.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17402.39159375,"end":17411.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17412.11159375,"end":17415.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17417.08971875,"end":17422.506593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17423.06346875,"end":17426.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17427.349718750003,"end":17429.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":17429.10471875,"end":17429.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17429.42534375,"end":17429.459093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":17429.459093750003,"end":17431.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":17432.429093749997,"end":17434.960343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17445.67596875,"end":17450.232218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":17450.232218750003,"end":17453.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":17453.624093749997,"end":17454.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17456.71221875,"end":17456.880968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17458.63596875,"end":17459.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17459.02409375,"end":17459.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17459.04096875,"end":17459.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17460.28971875,"end":17465.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17465.38596875,"end":17475.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17475.983468749997,"end":17479.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17479.898468749998,"end":17482.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17482.395968750003,"end":17491.592843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17492.200343750003,"end":17498.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17499.01784375,"end":17500.131593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17500.671593749998,"end":17509.109093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17509.277843750002,"end":17512.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17513.226593749998,"end":17520.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17521.309718750003,"end":17521.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17522.406593749998,"end":17552.545343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17553.051593750002,"end":17564.796593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17565.083468750003,"end":17567.530343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17568.053468750004,"end":17570.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17570.71971875,"end":17572.710968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17572.997843750003,"end":17574.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17575.47846875,"end":17576.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17577.098468750002,"end":17577.857843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17578.12784375,"end":17578.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17579.241593749997,"end":17579.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17580.152843750002,"end":17581.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17581.536593750003,"end":17582.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17582.12721875,"end":17584.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17585.569718749997,"end":17587.054718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17587.93221875,"end":17588.607218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17589.265343749998,"end":17589.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17590.514093750004,"end":17594.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17594.918468750002,"end":17605.937843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17606.444093750004,"end":17606.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17607.22034375,"end":17648.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17649.10409375,"end":17654.537843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17655.263468750003,"end":17671.935968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17671.935968750004,"end":17692.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17693.012843750003,"end":17700.724718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17700.87659375,"end":17704.859093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":17700.97784375,"end":17701.062218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17701.062218749998,"end":17701.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":17701.450343750003,"end":17701.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17701.973468750002,"end":17704.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17705.39909375,"end":17708.217218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17708.80784375,"end":17709.600968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17710.562843749998,"end":17728.264718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17726.40846875,"end":17750.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17746.99596875,"end":17747.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17751.029093750003,"end":17755.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17755.60221875,"end":17757.694718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17757.86346875,"end":17763.179093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17763.61784375,"end":17767.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17767.684718750003,"end":17779.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17779.109093749998,"end":17792.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17789.402843750002,"end":17790.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17791.124093749997,"end":17796.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17793.250343749998,"end":17795.123468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17796.87846875,"end":17802.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":17803.139093750004,"end":17803.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17803.763468750003,"end":17807.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17807.374718749998,"end":17809.146593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17809.264718749997,"end":17828.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17829.700343750003,"end":17831.202218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17831.45534375,"end":17832.484718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17833.15971875,"end":17837.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17837.37846875,"end":17854.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":17855.367218749998,"end":17857.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":17857.965968750003,"end":17858.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":17858.826593750004,"end":17859.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":17859.872843750003,"end":17867.685968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":17868.512843750003,"end":17870.639093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17876.967218750004,"end":17878.469093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":17878.992218749998,"end":17880.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":17885.303468750004,"end":17885.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17886.029093750003,"end":17887.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17887.851593749998,"end":17890.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17890.872218750003,"end":17895.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17895.91784375,"end":17902.380968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":17902.380968750003,"end":17902.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17902.73534375,"end":17912.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17912.96159375,"end":17914.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17915.10471875,"end":17922.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17922.58034375,"end":17924.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17925.02721875,"end":17935.084718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17935.45596875,"end":17942.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17942.762843750003,"end":17948.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17948.685968750004,"end":17956.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17956.937843749998,"end":17957.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17958.00096875,"end":17963.367218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17963.856593750003,"end":17966.944718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17966.99534375,"end":17972.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17973.00284375,"end":17976.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17976.512843750003,"end":17980.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17981.30534375,"end":17982.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17982.537218750003,"end":17983.279718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17983.684718750003,"end":17984.444093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17984.71409375,"end":17986.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17986.92471875,"end":17988.342218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17988.865343750003,"end":17991.210968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17991.64971875,"end":17994.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":17994.94034375,"end":18001.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18001.420343750004,"end":18004.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18004.491593749997,"end":18005.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18006.51659375,"end":18010.296593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18010.56659375,"end":18016.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18016.65846875,"end":18018.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18018.56534375,"end":18021.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18021.484718749998,"end":18023.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18023.880968750003,"end":18025.905968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18026.108468749997,"end":18027.390968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18027.94784375,"end":18029.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18029.905343749997,"end":18031.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18032.08221875,"end":18036.672218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18036.99284375,"end":18038.123468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18038.51159375,"end":18042.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18043.75971875,"end":18045.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18046.07159375,"end":18047.100968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18047.303468750004,"end":18053.209718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18053.69909375,"end":18056.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18056.51721875,"end":18057.344093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18057.69846875,"end":18060.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18061.731593750003,"end":18062.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18063.92534375,"end":18064.499093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18064.73534375,"end":18065.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18069.122843750003,"end":18070.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18071.552843750003,"end":18075.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18075.130343750003,"end":18082.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18082.825343750003,"end":18083.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18083.85471875,"end":18085.474718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18084.47909375,"end":18088.225343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18088.309718750003,"end":18093.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18093.810968750004,"end":18095.599718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18094.40159375,"end":18098.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18096.17346875,"end":18102.349718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18102.484718749998,"end":18107.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18103.952843749998,"end":18104.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":18107.226593749998,"end":18108.576593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18108.576593750004,"end":18118.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18114.95534375,"end":18115.647218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18115.950968750003,"end":18116.507843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18117.132218749997,"end":18122.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18122.700968750003,"end":18128.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18128.57346875,"end":18134.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18132.48846875,"end":18138.428468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18135.239093750002,"end":18139.390343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18139.879718750002,"end":18141.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18141.87096875,"end":18148.671593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18148.78971875,"end":18154.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":18148.874093749997,"end":18149.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18149.02596875,"end":18149.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18154.662218750003,"end":18157.750343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18157.98659375,"end":18158.560343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18158.864093750002,"end":18162.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18162.762218750002,"end":18164.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18164.75346875,"end":18165.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18166.069718749997,"end":18167.234093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18167.90909375,"end":18170.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18171.250343749998,"end":18177.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18178.169093750003,"end":18180.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18180.717218750004,"end":18182.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18182.927843750003,"end":18186.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18187.61909375,"end":18188.732843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18189.10409375,"end":18190.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18191.061593749997,"end":18191.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18192.88409375,"end":18194.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18195.19596875,"end":18196.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18197.187218749998,"end":18198.655343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18198.80721875,"end":18207.075968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18207.36284375,"end":18209.202218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18210.07971875,"end":18211.109093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18211.56471875,"end":18212.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18212.678468750004,"end":18213.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18214.264718749997,"end":18216.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18217.015343749998,"end":18218.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18218.65221875,"end":18220.069718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18220.64346875,"end":18221.436593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18221.841593750003,"end":18222.719093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18222.887843750003,"end":18224.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18225.06471875,"end":18226.920968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18227.15721875,"end":18234.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18234.78471875,"end":18236.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18236.69159375,"end":18237.670343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18238.37909375,"end":18239.374718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18239.965343750002,"end":18242.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18242.935343750003,"end":18244.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18245.01096875,"end":18246.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18246.37784375,"end":18251.372843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18251.389718749997,"end":18251.406593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18251.42346875,"end":18257.312843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18258.021593750003,"end":18260.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18260.670968749997,"end":18264.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18265.02471875,"end":18267.741593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18267.944093750004,"end":18268.568468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18268.92284375,"end":18270.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18270.812843749998,"end":18271.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18272.922218749998,"end":18277.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18277.91721875,"end":18279.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18280.161593750003,"end":18283.047218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18283.08096875,"end":18285.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18285.949718750002,"end":18289.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18289.59471875,"end":18290.843468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18291.18096875,"end":18292.193468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18292.64909375,"end":18296.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18296.56409375,"end":18299.264093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18299.82096875,"end":18303.482843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18303.044093750003,"end":18304.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18303.87096875,"end":18307.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":18304.090343750002,"end":18304.124093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":18305.828468749998,"end":18307.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18307.34721875,"end":18307.600343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":18307.600343750004,"end":18321.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":18321.58971875,"end":18329.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":18330.11159375,"end":18340.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18336.65909375,"end":18337.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18339.325343750003,"end":18349.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18350.412218750003,"end":18356.436593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18356.67284375,"end":18366.038468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18366.139718749997,"end":18367.405343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18367.77659375,"end":18368.468468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18368.72159375,"end":18381.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18381.749093749997,"end":18385.005968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18385.15784375,"end":18394.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18394.89471875,"end":18403.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18403.73721875,"end":18409.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18409.64346875,"end":18412.664093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18410.04846875,"end":18413.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18413.676593750002,"end":18416.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18416.950343750003,"end":18419.920343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18419.734718749998,"end":18419.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":18419.76846875,"end":18419.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18419.78534375,"end":18419.835968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":18419.835968749998,"end":18420.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18420.004718750002,"end":18428.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":18421.25346875,"end":18423.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":18428.00346875,"end":18428.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18429.48846875,"end":18437.436593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":18437.436593749997,"end":18437.453468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18437.453468749998,"end":18438.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":18438.263468750003,"end":18438.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18438.33096875,"end":18438.398468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18438.398468749998,"end":18438.482843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":18438.482843750004,"end":18438.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18438.51659375,"end":18438.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18438.53346875,"end":18439.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":18440.98034375,"end":18444.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":18444.270968750003,"end":18446.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":18448.96221875,"end":18449.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":18463.137218750002,"end":18465.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":18465.97221875,"end":18467.592218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18474.882218749997,"end":18477.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18476.535968750002,"end":18476.654093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18477.615968750004,"end":18480.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18481.14284375,"end":18483.420968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18484.19721875,"end":18488.382218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18489.17534375,"end":18490.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18490.76159375,"end":18495.334718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18495.82409375,"end":18498.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18498.96284375,"end":18502.928468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18503.468468749998,"end":18507.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18507.61971875,"end":18511.281593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18511.82159375,"end":18512.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18512.918468750002,"end":18520.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18520.46159375,"end":18522.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18523.54971875,"end":18523.904093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18524.123468750004,"end":18526.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18527.22846875,"end":18528.561593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18529.25346875,"end":18530.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18531.194093750004,"end":18534.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18534.82221875,"end":18542.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18543.225968749997,"end":18547.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18547.664093749998,"end":18551.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18551.91659375,"end":18554.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18551.967218750004,"end":18552.304718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18554.903468750003,"end":18555.882218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18555.91596875,"end":18555.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18556.506593750004,"end":18562.632218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18564.100343750004,"end":18566.935343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18567.28971875,"end":18568.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18568.79159375,"end":18569.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18570.88409375,"end":18572.959718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18573.786593750003,"end":18576.014093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18576.50346875,"end":18580.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18581.53221875,"end":18583.202843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18583.57409375,"end":18585.396593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18585.936593749997,"end":18586.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18586.51034375,"end":18587.303468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18588.434093750002,"end":18589.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18590.340968750003,"end":18590.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18591.505343750003,"end":18600.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18600.381593750004,"end":18604.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18605.07284375,"end":18616.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18617.138468750003,"end":18618.100343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18618.623468750004,"end":18619.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18620.513468750003,"end":18621.492218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18622.35284375,"end":18626.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18626.68971875,"end":18628.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18629.62596875,"end":18632.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18632.629718750002,"end":18634.435343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18636.30846875,"end":18636.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18637.45596875,"end":18638.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18639.12659375,"end":18639.514718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18640.42596875,"end":18641.944718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18643.14284375,"end":18644.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18645.809093750002,"end":18649.622843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18650.061593749997,"end":18650.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18650.871593750002,"end":18651.749093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18652.390343749998,"end":18656.794718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18657.38534375,"end":18660.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18660.96284375,"end":18662.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18663.69659375,"end":18665.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18665.73846875,"end":18666.615968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18667.52721875,"end":18667.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18668.640968749998,"end":18669.990968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18671.020343750002,"end":18674.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18674.648468749998,"end":18675.779093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18676.55534375,"end":18678.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18679.778468750003,"end":18682.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18683.72721875,"end":18688.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18691.169093750003,"end":18692.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18692.873468750004,"end":18695.826593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18696.265343749998,"end":18696.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18697.328468749998,"end":18699.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18699.944093750004,"end":18701.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18703.420343750004,"end":18705.327218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18705.91784375,"end":18709.005968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18710.11971875,"end":18710.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18711.233468749997,"end":18713.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18714.76034375,"end":18715.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18717.19034375,"end":18717.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18718.725968749997,"end":18719.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18719.90721875,"end":18722.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18722.590343750002,"end":18723.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18724.429718749998,"end":18727.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18728.37846875,"end":18728.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18729.762218750002,"end":18732.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18733.66034375,"end":18736.107218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18737.170343750004,"end":18739.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18740.359718749998,"end":18742.334093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18743.43096875,"end":18745.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18746.046593749998,"end":18747.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18748.662218750003,"end":18748.898468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18749.75909375,"end":18751.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18752.18909375,"end":18756.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18757.724093750003,"end":18758.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18759.107843750004,"end":18759.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18760.42409375,"end":18761.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18762.246593750002,"end":18764.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18765.04784375,"end":18767.967218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18768.43971875,"end":18769.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18770.414093749998,"end":18771.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18771.71346875,"end":18772.928468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18773.991593749997,"end":18776.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18776.927843750003,"end":18777.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18778.05846875,"end":18780.539093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18782.26034375,"end":18782.310968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18782.310968750004,"end":18782.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18782.37846875,"end":18782.429093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18782.429093749997,"end":18783.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":18784.082843750002,"end":18786.749093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18786.124718749998,"end":18788.639093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18789.263468750003,"end":18791.288468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18791.96346875,"end":18793.094093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18793.44846875,"end":18794.646593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18794.967218750004,"end":18799.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":18799.827218749997,"end":18804.265343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18822.895343750002,"end":18825.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":18824.835968749998,"end":18826.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18826.03409375,"end":18827.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":18827.434718750003,"end":18829.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18828.66659375,"end":18829.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":18829.965968750003,"end":18832.935968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18831.062843749998,"end":18831.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":18833.18909375,"end":18834.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18834.91034375,"end":18834.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":18837.458468750003,"end":18837.475343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18837.475343750004,"end":18837.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18838.740968750004,"end":18839.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18840.192218750002,"end":18842.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18842.858468750004,"end":18850.570343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18850.570343749998,"end":18850.874093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18850.874093750004,"end":18857.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18857.303468750004,"end":18860.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18858.09659375,"end":18858.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18858.21471875,"end":18858.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18860.475968749997,"end":18901.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18901.75221875,"end":18901.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18901.785968750002,"end":18902.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18902.08971875,"end":18904.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18905.295968750004,"end":18906.764093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18907.01721875,"end":18908.249093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18908.58659375,"end":18912.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18912.552218750003,"end":18913.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18914.00346875,"end":18917.749718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18917.952218750004,"end":18924.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18924.499718749998,"end":18927.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18928.14471875,"end":18931.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18932.04284375,"end":18933.544718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18934.101593749998,"end":18943.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18944.327843749998,"end":18944.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":18944.80034375,"end":18947.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":18947.264093750004,"end":18947.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18947.29784375,"end":18962.249093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18958.38471875,"end":18958.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18962.60346875,"end":18979.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18979.19159375,"end":18998.327843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":18999.10409375,"end":19002.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19002.66471875,"end":19006.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19007.45721875,"end":19007.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19008.115343750003,"end":19009.397843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19012.334093750003,"end":19018.037843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19018.037843750004,"end":19020.569093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19020.788468749997,"end":19026.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19026.96471875,"end":19027.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_44","start":19027.437218749998,"end":19028.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19028.247218750003,"end":19040.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19040.380343750003,"end":19042.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19043.147843749997,"end":19045.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19044.12659375,"end":19050.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19050.99471875,"end":19055.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19055.685968750004,"end":19057.474718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19056.951593750004,"end":19057.187843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19057.187843749998,"end":19057.272218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19057.272218750004,"end":19057.474718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19057.474718750003,"end":19057.609718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19057.609718749998,"end":19057.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19057.64346875,"end":19057.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19057.86284375,"end":19057.896593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19057.896593750003,"end":19058.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19058.28471875,"end":19059.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19058.318468750003,"end":19067.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19067.481593750003,"end":19091.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":19090.684718750003,"end":19091.967218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19091.967218750004,"end":19108.960343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":19097.974718750003,"end":19098.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":19099.40909375,"end":19099.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19108.960343749997,"end":19119.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19108.97721875,"end":19109.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19119.96284375,"end":19132.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":19133.05784375,"end":19145.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19136.669093750003,"end":19137.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19139.04846875,"end":19140.600968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19143.18284375,"end":19143.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19144.21221875,"end":19144.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19144.31346875,"end":19144.904093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19144.904093750003,"end":19144.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19147.857218750003,"end":19158.741593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19169.55846875,"end":19172.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19173.068468750003,"end":19174.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19177.35471875,"end":19179.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19179.075968750003,"end":19181.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19181.505968750003,"end":19181.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19182.670343750004,"end":19183.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19183.716593750003,"end":19184.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19187.66534375,"end":19247.318468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19247.47034375,"end":19252.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19253.224718750003,"end":19254.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19254.490343750003,"end":19261.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19261.864718750003,"end":19281.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19280.51159375,"end":19280.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19282.60409375,"end":19338.865343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19338.645968750003,"end":19379.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19379.669093750003,"end":19406.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":19391.903468750003,"end":19392.021593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19407.78284375,"end":19427.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19427.71221875,"end":19431.390968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19431.390968749998,"end":19438.562843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19431.42471875,"end":19431.795968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19434.39471875,"end":19434.445343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_35","start":19434.445343749998,"end":19434.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19434.56346875,"end":19434.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19434.66471875,"end":19434.765968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19438.61346875,"end":19441.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19439.052218750003,"end":19439.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19441.65096875,"end":19455.319718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19455.319718749997,"end":19459.521593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19459.521593750003,"end":19488.630968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19488.630968750003,"end":19499.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19499.802218750003,"end":19502.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19502.92409375,"end":19504.459718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19503.902843750002,"end":19505.505968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19506.147218750004,"end":19513.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19507.750343749998,"end":19508.374718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19513.28534375,"end":19519.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19519.849718750003,"end":19520.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":19520.10284375,"end":19520.406593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19520.406593749998,"end":19520.592218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19520.592218750004,"end":19520.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19520.64284375,"end":19520.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19521.537218750003,"end":19521.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19521.57096875,"end":19521.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19521.68909375,"end":19521.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19522.397843749997,"end":19522.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19522.41471875,"end":19522.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19522.44846875,"end":19522.600343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":19523.865968750004,"end":19531.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19531.81409375,"end":19535.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":19535.42534375,"end":19544.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19542.867218749998,"end":19557.210968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19558.341593750003,"end":19584.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19563.083468750003,"end":19566.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19567.116593749997,"end":19568.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19582.506593750004,"end":19586.522843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19587.029093750003,"end":19615.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19590.201593750004,"end":19590.623468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19615.96971875,"end":19619.648468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19619.88471875,"end":19631.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19631.47784375,"end":19632.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19632.895343750002,"end":19641.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19634.700968750003,"end":19635.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19641.450968750003,"end":19644.825968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19644.218468749998,"end":19648.200968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19647.50909375,"end":19651.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":19651.23846875,"end":19654.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":19655.069093750004,"end":19660.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19660.08096875,"end":19729.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":19680.22971875,"end":19680.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19730.027843750002,"end":19731.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":19731.04034375,"end":19731.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19733.26784375,"end":19735.140968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19735.78221875,"end":19743.865343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_43","start":19755.84659375,"end":19755.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":19755.86346875,"end":19760.234093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19758.25971875,"end":19759.592843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":19760.57159375,"end":19769.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19762.410968750002,"end":19763.085968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19763.22096875,"end":19763.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19763.288468749997,"end":19763.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19769.262218750002,"end":19772.130968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19772.637218750002,"end":19773.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":19778.239718750003,"end":19823.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19779.184718750003,"end":19779.319718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19779.55596875,"end":19779.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19824.426593750002,"end":19825.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19825.422218749998,"end":19825.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":19825.793468750002,"end":19825.844093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19825.844093749998,"end":19825.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19826.19846875,"end":19836.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":19835.530343750004,"end":19844.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":19846.54971875,"end":19856.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":19848.507218749997,"end":19848.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":19848.97971875,"end":19849.030343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":19855.679093749997,"end":19855.982843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":19856.45534375,"end":19868.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":19869.44909375,"end":19875.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":19875.74346875,"end":19878.139718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":19878.460343749997,"end":19884.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":19885.12596875,"end":19908.396593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":19909.037843750004,"end":19912.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":19913.138468750003,"end":19913.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":19913.20596875,"end":19913.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":19913.22284375,"end":19913.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":19913.965343750002,"end":19935.717218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":19915.01159375,"end":19915.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":19915.028468750003,"end":19915.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":19935.78471875,"end":19954.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":19954.02659375,"end":19964.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":19964.97846875,"end":19965.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":19965.029093750003,"end":19966.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":19966.96971875,"end":19989.295343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":19989.615968750004,"end":19989.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":19989.700343750003,"end":19989.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":19989.76784375,"end":19989.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":19990.544093750003,"end":19999.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":19999.740968750004,"end":20032.022843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20032.022843749997,"end":20032.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20032.309718750003,"end":20032.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20032.39409375,"end":20032.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20032.69784375,"end":20033.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20033.11971875,"end":20033.693468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20033.693468750003,"end":20033.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20034.098468750002,"end":20034.115343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20034.115343750003,"end":20034.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20034.16596875,"end":20035.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20034.70596875,"end":20035.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20035.785968750002,"end":20035.802843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20035.802843750003,"end":20035.937843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20035.937843749998,"end":20035.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20036.25846875,"end":20036.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20036.27534375,"end":20037.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":20037.03471875,"end":20037.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20037.94596875,"end":20038.249718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":20038.249718749998,"end":20038.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":20040.83159375,"end":20048.357843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":20048.864093750002,"end":20049.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":20050.09596875,"end":20051.969093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":20052.458468750003,"end":20054.787218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":20054.85471875,"end":20057.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":20058.246593750002,"end":20069.873468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20070.04221875,"end":20080.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":20074.328468749998,"end":20074.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":20074.530968749998,"end":20074.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_42","start":20080.13346875,"end":20080.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20080.38659375,"end":20085.381593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20085.76971875,"end":20086.984718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20087.406593749998,"end":20088.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20088.82409375,"end":20089.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20089.66784375,"end":20091.507218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20092.08096875,"end":20092.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20092.114718750003,"end":20092.890968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20092.350968749997,"end":20096.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":20092.890968749998,"end":20093.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20093.700968750003,"end":20094.139718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":20097.278468750003,"end":20111.858468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":20098.240343750003,"end":20098.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20098.61159375,"end":20099.202218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20100.09659375,"end":20100.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20111.824718750002,"end":20118.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":20117.17409375,"end":20120.279093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20120.00909375,"end":20126.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":20123.434718750003,"end":20124.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20126.219093749998,"end":20132.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20133.239093750002,"end":20136.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20133.593468749998,"end":20133.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20136.445343749998,"end":20138.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":20139.398468749998,"end":20146.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":20146.68846875,"end":20155.935968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20164.12034375,"end":20164.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20165.50409375,"end":20168.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":20168.74409375,"end":20170.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20178.98721875,"end":20179.037843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":20179.037843750004,"end":20179.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20179.59471875,"end":20187.492218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20187.779093750003,"end":20194.124093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20194.49534375,"end":20200.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20200.50284375,"end":20201.177843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20201.076593750004,"end":20208.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20208.80534375,"end":20213.513468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20214.08721875,"end":20219.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20220.263468750003,"end":20227.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20227.60409375,"end":20237.999093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20238.35346875,"end":20263.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20264.661593750003,"end":20281.553468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20281.857218750003,"end":20285.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20285.58659375,"end":20292.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20292.960968749998,"end":20296.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20297.29784375,"end":20316.569093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20316.73784375,"end":20347.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":20347.83846875,"end":20355.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20354.723468750002,"end":20360.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":20356.17471875,"end":20357.389718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":20359.077218750004,"end":20367.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20361.591593750003,"end":20361.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20365.827218750004,"end":20365.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20367.497843750003,"end":20376.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":20376.779093750003,"end":20382.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20377.605968750002,"end":20377.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20381.554718749998,"end":20386.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":20386.43159375,"end":20389.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20388.270968750003,"end":20390.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20390.44784375,"end":20393.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20394.12659375,"end":20399.999093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20400.285968750002,"end":20407.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20407.879718750002,"end":20408.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20409.567218750002,"end":20444.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20445.240968750004,"end":20447.468468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20447.687843749998,"end":20468.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":20468.79846875,"end":20477.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20477.97846875,"end":20477.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20477.99534375,"end":20478.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20478.012218750002,"end":20478.248468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20478.248468750004,"end":20478.265343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20478.265343749998,"end":20478.366593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":20478.265343749998,"end":20481.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20478.366593749997,"end":20478.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20478.38346875,"end":20478.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20478.40034375,"end":20480.459093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20481.184718750003,"end":20486.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20487.209093750003,"end":20487.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20488.20471875,"end":20496.405968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20497.60409375,"end":20500.607843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20500.87784375,"end":20511.779093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20512.217843750004,"end":20517.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20517.685343750003,"end":20602.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":20603.224718750003,"end":20607.359093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20605.80659375,"end":20606.177843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20607.527843750002,"end":20610.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_37","start":20609.434718750003,"end":20624.757218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20614.328468749998,"end":20615.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20624.757218749997,"end":20634.662843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_40","start":20635.084718750004,"end":20637.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":20637.98721875,"end":20644.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":20644.973468750002,"end":20648.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":20649.715343750002,"end":20653.545968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":20654.01846875,"end":20664.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":20665.17284375,"end":20671.787843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20681.997218750003,"end":20686.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":20686.58721875,"end":20687.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20686.82346875,"end":20691.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":20688.27471875,"end":20689.287218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20696.32409375,"end":20698.163468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20700.374093750004,"end":20711.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20711.309093750002,"end":20751.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20752.29846875,"end":20762.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20763.16596875,"end":20765.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20766.203468749998,"end":20769.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20770.084718750004,"end":20771.232218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20771.333468750003,"end":20774.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20775.21471875,"end":20785.289093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20785.373468750004,"end":20790.014093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20790.233468750004,"end":20801.944718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20802.231593750003,"end":20803.632218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20804.18909375,"end":20811.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20811.81659375,"end":20814.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20814.803468750004,"end":20818.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20818.44846875,"end":20827.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20827.982843750004,"end":20829.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20829.130343750003,"end":20840.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20841.33096875,"end":20850.359093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20850.91596875,"end":20868.803468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20869.090343750002,"end":20875.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20876.36346875,"end":20883.872843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20884.277843750002,"end":20887.484093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20887.652843750002,"end":20893.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20893.82909375,"end":20894.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":20895.11159375,"end":20899.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20896.022843749997,"end":20896.124093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":20899.85346875,"end":20917.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20909.910968750002,"end":20910.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20910.029093750003,"end":20910.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20910.29909375,"end":20910.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20910.434093750002,"end":20910.450968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20910.450968750003,"end":20910.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20910.82221875,"end":20911.210343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20916.54284375,"end":20955.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":20917.639718750004,"end":20918.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":20919.546593749998,"end":20920.170968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":20921.18346875,"end":20924.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20924.22096875,"end":20924.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20925.72284375,"end":20926.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":20947.896593750003,"end":20949.600968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":20955.45659375,"end":20955.709718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20955.52409375,"end":20965.328468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20965.76721875,"end":20973.344093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20973.850343750004,"end":20992.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20993.10471875,"end":20999.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":20999.382218749997,"end":21008.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":21009.203468749998,"end":21010.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":21010.452218750004,"end":21012.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":21012.61221875,"end":21016.999718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":21017.26971875,"end":21021.437843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":21021.944093750004,"end":21024.272843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":21024.694718749997,"end":21024.795968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":21024.795968750004,"end":21025.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":21025.89284375,"end":21032.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21032.355968750002,"end":21032.693468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":21032.42346875,"end":21034.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":21032.693468750003,"end":21032.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":21035.15721875,"end":21039.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":21040.270343750002,"end":21043.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21043.544093750003,"end":21044.084093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":21044.084093750003,"end":21045.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":21045.569093750004,"end":21052.319093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":21052.319093750004,"end":21052.538468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":21052.538468749997,"end":21054.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":21055.170968750004,"end":21075.724718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":21076.18034375,"end":21078.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":21079.80846875,"end":21087.756593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":21088.600343750004,"end":21089.663468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":21090.54096875,"end":21095.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":21095.957843750002,"end":21102.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":21102.707843750002,"end":21105.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":21105.897218750004,"end":21122.552843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":21122.637218750002,"end":21127.834718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":21128.020343750002,"end":21134.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":21134.63534375,"end":21148.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":21149.232218750003,"end":21165.263468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":21166.19159375,"end":21194.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":21195.99284375,"end":21210.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":21210.87659375,"end":21238.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21239.226593749998,"end":21242.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21266.969093749998,"end":21269.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21269.75346875,"end":21269.922218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_36","start":21269.97284375,"end":21270.023468749998}],"whisperx":[{"start":1785.97,"end":1800.054,"text":"好 各位官員請坐好 出席委員與主法定人數現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1803.703,"end":1827.583,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期交通委員會第八次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年4月24日星期四上午九時四分至下午一時二十五分地點本院紅樓201會議室出席委員洪孟凱等15人列席委員蔓玉珍等15人列席官員數位發展部部長黃燕南等主席許召集委員致解報告四項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定"},{"start":1829.744,"end":1852.516,"text":"討論事項、審查一至十事、直通安全管理法、修正草案本日會議由委員葛如君等說明提案要旨由數位發展部部長黃燕蘭報告後藉由委員黃孟凱等15人提出質詢軍警部長黃燕蘭及相關人員分別予以答覆決議一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員就政軍所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":1853.576,"end":1873.61,"text":"三 委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請數位發展部及相關器官盡數以書面答覆四 討論四項個案均另定其積蓄審查散會宣讀完畢好來現在介紹今天列席的官員我們交通部陳士凱部長我們公運監理師林福山司長"},{"start":1880.998,"end":1905.28,"text":"行政司韓振華司長陸正道安司黃韻貴司長民安局何淑品局長國道局楊振軍局長台鐵公司代董事長吳聖元董事長"},{"start":1908.339,"end":1932.466,"text":"台灣高鐵公司鄭光炎董事長中華航空公司董事長高興煌董事長國營應安會主任委員林信德還有我們應安會的執行長林佩達"},{"start":1935.319,"end":1958.851,"text":"我們水路調查組的組長蘇水渡還有鐵道調查組組長吳吉春運輸安全組鄭永安組長好以上來做做介紹那等一下委員我們再補充介紹"},{"start":1961.732,"end":1985.507,"text":"好 本日會議進行近期我國航空鐵路營運安全事件之檢討與改善及台鐵票價調整方案的專案報告那現在請列席機關交通部陳部長來進行報告時間控制在15分鐘以內謝謝"},{"start":1992.653,"end":2015.612,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天應邀至貴委委員會報告近期我國航空鐵路營運安全事件之檢討與改善以及台鐵票價調整方案敬請各位委員指教飛航安全為民航發展之核心基礎隨著航空運量逐年回升"},{"start":2016.593,"end":2045.672,"text":"以及氣候變遷對航空運作所帶來的新挑戰我國飛航管理也不斷地在精進本部民航局持續依國際民航組織的標準以及建議以及我國國家民用航空安全計畫強化飛安監理機制並且監督業者落實安全管理系統以及遵循三級監理機制以確保我國的飛航安全"},{"start":2046.83,"end":2061.608,"text":"對於近五個月台鐵吊車作業發生七起的事件以及4月14日高鐵板橋站發生列車未開門及離站的事件引起國人對鐵路安全的關注"},{"start":2062.589,"end":2086.844,"text":"鐵路行車安全是營運最基本的核心對於每一個事故事件潛藏著不安全的因素都應該要積極督導鐵路機構改進同時也應該要推動各項的安全監理作業務必讓鐵路機構將安全擺在首位消彌各種可能導致事故發生的噪音"},{"start":2088.646,"end":2106.906,"text":"台鐵票價合理化方案已經在今年的3月28日獲得行政院核定預定在6月23日上路實施本次票價調整在考量合理反應營運成本的同時也已經納入民眾可以接受的程度以及"},{"start":2108.321,"end":2129.421,"text":"與其他運具的競爭性並且兼顧著短程區間票價合理化、中程距競爭性以及長程客源不流失的原則未來台鐵公司將持續推動各項營運安全改善以及提升工作並且致力於提升更好的旅客服務、乘車品質、建立永續經營的基礎"},{"start":2131.283,"end":2157.252,"text":"以下我就請高鐵公司 台鐵公司 華航公司分別就近期我國航空鐵路營運安全事件之檢討與改善以及台鐵票價調整方案等議題詳細報告 敬請各位委員指教好 謝謝我們陳部長那我再來補充介紹我們富坤崎總召我們本會富坤崎總召來 把我先追一下"},{"start":2159.397,"end":2172.215,"text":"好 謝謝陳部長那因為民航局跟鐵道局我們就請參閱他們的書面資料那現在我們請台鐵公司的吳聖岩代董事長來進行報告"},{"start":2183.11,"end":2198.763,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天非常榮幸來營養道櫃員會來進行專題報告並備詢以下請就進體鐵路營運安全事件的檢討以及改善另外對台鐵票價的調整方案的部分來進行報告"},{"start":2200.464,"end":2224.91,"text":"第一個首先報告營運安全事件的檢討還有改善第一個我們要完善的營運安全機制台鐵在去年113年1月1號轉型為改革成立公司之後我們在董事會的層級審定年度的安全計畫還有目標值那經安全管理委員會審議由董事會來通過後實施經理部門層級依計畫來辦理"},{"start":2227.19,"end":2243.787,"text":"PDCA並設立安全管理推動小組透過SMS安全管理系統還有風險的管理來訂定各個部門的整合型的控制措施那各部門都賦予執行的目標還有KPI作為考核以及管控的依據"},{"start":2245.458,"end":2271.832,"text":"另外委託外部單位來辦理台鐵公司SMS第三彎評鑑來確保安全管理機制一個落實的執行第二個在推動安全提升方案的部分台鐵公司以五年為一期的五年安全提升計畫提升方案第一期是從113年到117年來擬定降低人員的失誤提升設備的妥善率消除不安全的"},{"start":2272.692,"end":2295.907,"text":"環境完善的組織安全體系4個策略總共23個項目要落實執行並滾動檢討分量來修正那他的公司同時也成立了專案小組每個月定期檢討會議管控進行進度還有成果接著報告近期吊車事故還有停車不當的一個事故的檢討"},{"start":2297.891,"end":2325.277,"text":"近五個月內台鐵發生了七件的吊車還有七件司機員停車不當的這樣的一個情況那主要大概都是人為的諸位上的一個疏失缺乏安全的風險意識造成的包括沒有依照SOP規定辦理行車吊車的工作還有沒有確實執行這個指認呼喚這樣的一個確認另外對路線有一些木診腐朽的一個情況"},{"start":2326.817,"end":2346.351,"text":"目前這個案件都有我們台北公司的運安處在詳查並且配合運安會還有鐵道局的調查在釐清責任之後我們將嚴懲相關的疏失人員並將加強風險管控避免這樣的情況再度發生目前我們辦理情況大概是這樣子第一個針對人員的一個信念"},{"start":2349.87,"end":2363.118,"text":"台鐵公司在第一季員工這個調車的作業啊列車停靠這些的SOP教育啊我們在各地區域進行有包括二市場的調車的作業有關不管是車輛引導"},{"start":2364.899,"end":2381.311,"text":"在街連掛、停車聯繫、確認等這些讓同仁更了解SOP的相關規定那後續依據台北公司的行車人員技能體格檢查實施要點來規定落實辦理新進人員的專業訓練在職人員的回信機制"},{"start":2385.093,"end":2414.235,"text":"讓每一個行車人員都具備有行調公車行調車的這樣的一個工作能力落實執行安全管理系統各項的指引第二個在強化督導考核的部分我們針對吊車作業管理作業除了現在有吊車標準作業程序還有清潛教育檢核表那由值班站長來辦理吊車考核以外令重新訂定吊車作業的督導考核辦法"},{"start":2414.955,"end":2438.663,"text":"來增加各段處各區的安全科以及公司本部在這個吊車吊車廠的作業的考核頻率而且嚴加的管考那考核內容包括有落實吊車的那個勤儉教育還有危害告知而且明確告明確立定變組的車型"},{"start":2441.919,"end":2463.981,"text":"進入路線的一個長度停車再開的地點推進這些的必要的措施那另外前端的時候必須在推進運轉的時候車輛前端需派引導而且考慮是均需以增加不公開的方式來督導吊車作業的辦理情況"},{"start":2465.814,"end":2488.752,"text":"第二針對停車位置不當的管理方面我們建立了明確的規範還有違規的處理流程包括要求在乘務中不得分心使用手機電子產品另外對於加強司機員教育協會的考核包括我們從ATP裡面來隨著考核這個評列增加"},{"start":2489.392,"end":2509.903,"text":"另外透過ATP的曲線記錄來查核高風險的駕駛行為發現有異於平常的駕駛行為的模式就立即來暫停乘務若造勢行車責任造事故則除了依規定加重懲罰以外並且亦已記點累計七點就不得擔任駕駛員"},{"start":2512.369,"end":2519.236,"text":"另外依照車站的這個環境條件我們全面檢討ATP曲線這個停站的速度為"},{"start":2522.555,"end":2546.927,"text":"0來降低車輛停車位置不當的風險另外要來延續推動駕駛室加裝影音安全輔助設備來提升行車的安全另外在加速開放各吊車場的目準我們對針對所有吊車場的倒差辦理特別檢查包括路線的幾何不整"},{"start":2548.087,"end":2567.069,"text":"還有鋼軌的模號 腐朽的木枕有安全儀力的路段優先來更換那針對腐朽這個木枕優先更換為PC枕的倒差我們預計在116年可以全部完成第二個報告 台鐵票價調整的方案"},{"start":2568.055,"end":2594.383,"text":"台北的基本費率從台鐵的基本費率從84年9月16日核定到現在已經30年沒有調整了那這中間物價已經提升了60.3%大幅的提高營運成本而且因為都沒有調整費率啊票箱收入已經難以支應營運成本考量台鐵在113年完成公司化需自負盈虧因此無論從營業成本乃至"},{"start":2595.595,"end":2619.175,"text":"健全公司的這個營業的條件這些因素基本規律確實有檢討必要的空間目前辦理情況台鐵公司研擬的台鐵票價合理方案在3月28日核定我們依據在今年的6月23號來實施那這次的調整方案是以這個76年立法院核定的票價"},{"start":2620.709,"end":2648.27,"text":"費率公視來合理報酬率3到5%的來試算課業部分為了減低對民眾的影響我們採用下限3%來試算課業部分的調幅而且考慮經營的目標市場的競爭我們擬定短程期間的票價合理化中程具有競爭力長程的課員不流失這樣的一個策略我們另外課業部分我們以遞演遞減"},{"start":2650.052,"end":2664.463,"text":"各區間的等級我們每一個員人的公里從1.42元到3.39元來實施調整我們調整完之後的報酬率只有0.36%"},{"start":2667.878,"end":2681.882,"text":"第二個貨運的部分以合理報酬率300來計算每年度公里基本匯率是2.54元那經過統計大部分貨主大概都備有自己的貨車大概有87%那這樣我們還享有自備貨車有85折的一個優惠"},{"start":2688.356,"end":2716.952,"text":"那這次的票整啊我們是以短程期間票價合理化中程距競爭競爭性長程客源不流失的原則的研議調整方案以及策略TPAS的旅客還有常客續享原政策不受票價影響並實施地延地減的優惠方案配合新車的投入加開直達半直達這樣子的車來提高旅客的搭乘意願"},{"start":2717.791,"end":2734.482,"text":"來提升台鐵中長程的競爭力以維護原流的長途的一個課源最後結與台鐵公司轉行為公司之後所重安全全力來落實安全改革"},{"start":2735.612,"end":2761.222,"text":"今年到4月28號我們的行政訴故事件還有異常事件已經較去年同期減少大概有41件但是近期能夠發生7起的吊車停車不當等顯示我們的努力仍然不夠將持續來落實執行安全提升方案以及各方案的改革措施確保行政安全另外依據行政的函示"},{"start":2762.082,"end":2789.947,"text":"台北公司克制研議這個花東居民的優惠的一個措施來減輕花東居民受震災影響並確保營業安全以提升準點率還有旅運服務的品質為優先事項並健全公司的財務體質希望能夠提供旅客民眾更好的乘車的品質還有體驗推動公司的永續經營以上報告"},{"start":2792.506,"end":2811.89,"text":"好 謝謝我們吳聖妍吳董代董事長那我再來補充介紹我們本會委員洪孟楷委員好 現在請高鐵公司的鄭董事長來報告時間原則性在8分鐘以內好不好"},{"start":2821.212,"end":2844.027,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生今天非常榮幸應邀到貴委員會來就近期營運安全事件的檢討與改善進行報告將從台灣高鐵的安全管理機制與管理績效等面向來進行說明敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":2844.986,"end":2868.365,"text":"首先為了滿足營運暨營運合約的要求確保日後能夠提供國人高速安全的運輸服務台灣高鐵公司參考歐盟日本等國家的實務經驗與管理指引制定各項安全管理制度來推動台灣高鐵系統的興建"},{"start":2869.005,"end":2887.338,"text":"以符合日後營運與維修所需的可靠度、可用度、可維修性及安全性等RAMS的標準目標後續更制定營運安全計畫作為最高位階的安全管理指引"},{"start":2888.673,"end":2910.828,"text":"訂定包含安全政策在內的總共12項安全管理要素透過PDCA的一個原則來持續控管監督改善鐵道運輸系統的安全績效近年來更因應111年鐵道行車規則的修訂那再次修訂營運安全計畫"},{"start":2919.813,"end":2933.121,"text":"經過111年的12月6號送交送交通部合併以後那麼在112年的元旦期正式實施到目前為止其次台灣高鐵"},{"start":2935.131,"end":2960.397,"text":"公司安全政策的制定是用Top-down的方式來推動的也就是說以安全作為所有作業的最高指導原則並且從12個面向貫徹在每一個工作的環節透過全員參與的行動力持續以PDCA的管理循環改善優化"},{"start":2961.96,"end":2989.446,"text":"建構嚴謹的安全管理機制因此 台灣高鐵以築城執行與典檢由button up的方式將作業發現以改善經濟措施築集匯報 凝聚共識以後來修訂程序跟規範以符合安全管理組織的運作我們每天從晨會開始"},{"start":2990.629,"end":3016.741,"text":"每週的經營管理會議每月的處級安全委員會每季的營運安全委員會以及每半年由總經理親自主持的安全委員會透過綿密的課程管理落實營運安全力求提供國人最好的運輸服務"},{"start":3018.507,"end":3031.163,"text":"此外高鐵公司也持續針對我們內部進行安全集合由直屬總經理的營運安全室依照年度的集合計畫"},{"start":3033.003,"end":3054.831,"text":"對內部從事運物維修系統研發等單位來執行鐵路營運安全集合集合內容涵蓋各單位的執行情形防台防汛整備場站的安全防護等如果發生了重大異常事件的話我們會"},{"start":3057.143,"end":3084.07,"text":"立即進行事件的調查外也會就改善的事項列管追蹤持續精進另外在每年交通部鐵道局定期與不定期的監理作業下檢視本公司各方面在安全工作方面督導改善精進協助本公司提升營運安全績效與服務品質"},{"start":3086.135,"end":3107.606,"text":"台灣高鐵公司自通車到現在的營運績效國連皆有目共睹去年我們每日的平均運量已經超過了21萬人次列車的準點率達到99.50的百分比列車平均延誤時間也只有12分鐘12秒鐘"},{"start":3111.894,"end":3120.482,"text":"在列車可靠度每百萬列車營運公里只有0.05列車的故障"},{"start":3121.548,"end":3142.086,"text":"行車路線可用度高達99.97%除此之外去年沒有重大行車事故一般的行車事故有兩件行車異常事件有25件這都比前一年都有顯著的下降"},{"start":3143.53,"end":3160.774,"text":"全年的行車試駕率為每百萬列車公里1.42件低於歷年的平均值1.84件最後針對最近本公司T204車次"},{"start":3163.22,"end":3184.955,"text":"停靠板橋車站去為開車門供旅客上下車事件來做個報告經過本公司調查結果本次事件屬於人為的疏忽主要的原因在於該列車駕駛沒有按照SOP來進行釐清以及確認"},{"start":3187.384,"end":3208.585,"text":"為了避免日後再有類似的情形發生高鐵公司以進行內部的檢討以改善包括暫停該駕駛勤務三個月其中包含實施特別訓練以及由航醫中心來進行心理測驗與視覺性檢查"},{"start":3211.434,"end":3232.644,"text":"另外公司已發布通告提醒所有的駕駛應該要落實SOP並且徵修行控中心列車長列車駕駛相關的應變處置規定以避免人為疏忽再發生另外"},{"start":3234.158,"end":3241.901,"text":"有關本案的懲處人已提報將請審議委員會來審議會將會將依這個審議的結果來辦理相關的懲處事宜最後感謝主席委員們的聆聽台灣高鐵將持續以安全為最高指導原則來參考國內外優良安全績效的標"},{"start":3264.842,"end":3284.79,"text":"運輸優良的運輸安全績效的標竿企業或者的機構來精進我們的風險管理與安全管理系統以提供國人安全可靠的高速鐵路運輸服務以上報告敬請各位委員支持指教謝謝"},{"start":3286.991,"end":3296.109,"text":"好 謝謝高鐵公司的鄭董事長的報告接下來請中華航空公司的高董事長來做報告"},{"start":3315.265,"end":3332.077,"text":"主席各位委員先進今天僅代表中華航空公司應邀來列席貴委員會就航空安全事件的檢討與改善專題提出一個報告並聆聽各位委員的指教僅此表示謝意"},{"start":3333.238,"end":3356.575,"text":"本公司在執行每一趟飛行任務的時候安全第一都是我們的最高原則4月13號CI753由桃園飛往新加坡的航班航機在不知名的飛航情報區裡在高空巡航期間因為一個引擎的故障巡航高度由39000英尺下降到24000英尺"},{"start":3359.373,"end":3378.106,"text":"確認安全無虞之後機長和本公司的聯管中心以衛星電話聯繫取得最新的天氣資料發現航程中有一些機場新加坡、胡志明、馬尼拉等還有航路上面都有一些預報的雷雨即將深沉"},{"start":3379.207,"end":3404.691,"text":"考慮在低的巡航高度而且只有單引擎的情況之下我們決定選擇較平穩的航路轉降高雄這是由機長做的最後的決策在此也特別要感謝民航局的驅管中心在航路上給予的協助接下來我們就借一張投影片我們來看一下在"},{"start":3408.314,"end":3431.906,"text":"起飛的時候二號引擎關車那儀表顯示的叫LAND ANSA就是在最近的合適的機場做一個落地那這個時候我們飛行組員第一個就是處理這個飛機把從39000英尺下降的同時把該做的程序做完然後在"},{"start":3434.296,"end":3444.081,"text":"飛機得到平穩的控制之後他立刻以衛星電話和華航的聯管中心聯繫取得各方的資訊之後"},{"start":3445.851,"end":3470.998,"text":"然後做了一個決定回到那個那個我們的那個高雄那底下有一個這個當下考量的從新加坡胡志明高雄還有馬尼拉因為只有兩萬四千英尺然後只有單發動機的時候事實上他的飛行時間大概分別是一小時五十九分到兩小時二十四分之間"},{"start":3472.898,"end":3498.054,"text":"那這個油量在精算也發現到高雄都沒有問題所以機長最後他的決策就是說回到高雄那我們再看下一張投影片這個是由中央氣象提供的一個顯著天氣的一個氣象圖那各位可以看得到這個有個三角點的那條線就是他的航路那在"},{"start":3499.281,"end":3525.88,"text":"中南半島在菲律賓在新加坡附近那些看起來有一些好像棉花的那個東西就是雷雨的深層區所以當下他的決定發現一路從台北下來的時候那整個航路都是平穩的所以為了最安全起見他決定走原來的航路回到高雄應該是風險最小的一個航路"},{"start":3527.503,"end":3542.993,"text":"那飛機轉降到高雄的時候,燃油還是充足的那所有的航線在下午的1點45分安全落地那總共飛了兩個鐘頭26分從他轉降開始算起,到落地是兩個鐘頭26分"},{"start":3545.273,"end":3571.285,"text":"那航機安全落地高雄後公司第一時間就啟動了旅客關懷跟資源的機制吊派了另外一架救援班機在當天下午由高雄起飛順利將全體的旅客送到新加坡同時高雄機場也安排專責人員主動提供說明協助確保每一位旅客受到妥善的照顧還有安撫"},{"start":3572.734,"end":3582.695,"text":"本公司深知旅途中突發事件可能帶來的不便跟不安所以我們用最大的誠意以及速度全力協助旅客行程的續行"},{"start":3584.482,"end":3609.034,"text":"那為了持續這個風險的管控以及應變我們也深刻的檢討那也做了幾個具體作為的一個改善第一個就是將本事件列入本公司內部非函安全的案例作為例行安全訓練課程以及機組模擬訓練時候的一個教材有助非函組員的應變能力跟決策能力的提升"},{"start":3610.359,"end":3628.274,"text":"第二個我們持續強化我們的發動機跟飛機製造商的聯繫跟合作在既有的飛航監控上面進一步優化相關的流程對於發動機異常情況的早期預警持續提升我們的應變效能"},{"start":3629.332,"end":3653.379,"text":"第三,本事件發生時公司立即啟動應變機制並妥善完成航機轉降及旅客後續處理可惜還是在一些社群平台上出現一些比較片段的資訊造成社會大眾的誤解或疑慮我們未來將會加強這一方面的工作"},{"start":3654.588,"end":3680.005,"text":"那飛航安全是本公司最高而且不可妥協的一個原則本公司會持續的秉持開放及負責的態度主動、清楚、精確的向社會大眾傳遞飛安的資訊及企業的誠信期盼外界給予我們的監督、支持的同時也能夠信賴機組人員在每一趟任務中所展現的專業以及對飛安的一個堅持"},{"start":3684.668,"end":3711.801,"text":"那本公司在做這樣的一個決策是由各相關單位提供資訊最終由機長做最後的決策對於身處第一線的機長做出的決定只要合乎安全規範公司都會予以支持以上是本公司針對這件事情的檢視以及精進的報告敬請各位委員指教 謝謝"},{"start":3714.511,"end":3741.203,"text":"好謝謝華航我們高董事長那個應援會的報告就請大家參閱書面資料其餘的也拜託大家請參閱書面的報告來那我們現在先來這個確定議事錄剛才議事人員已經宣讀完畢對於議事日大家有沒有意見好沒有意見我們議事錄就確定"},{"start":3747.332,"end":3772.34,"text":"好 現在進行巡打先先告以下事項巡打時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘花園登記到10點30分截止那各委員如果有臨時的提案請10點以前提出以便議事人員那個會診"},{"start":3774.502,"end":3787.425,"text":"那暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午嚴則性不休息現在請登記第一位的洪孟楷委員花言"},{"start":3794.056,"end":3806.823,"text":"好 主席麻煩請陳士凱部長好 那個交通部陳部長民航局局長還有我們運安會主委好 那個民航局何局長 來運安會林主委 來高董事長"},{"start":3807.817,"end":3836.753,"text":"我先很快的來就教因為這一次的這個4月13號華航的飛機的一個狀況剛剛高董事長也說明很清楚但是我想還是要請教這次運安會你的報告講是說非屬重大運輸事故範圍所以為立案調查但本席之前有提過其實運安會應該是一個防範於未然我們當然不希望說每一次是重大事故之後我們才來去做相關的調查如果可以我們在"},{"start":3838.557,"end":3856.099,"text":"預先預防的一個情況下來去做一個調查跟了解是不是會更加的妥適來 運安會是不是說明一下委員講的沒有錯是如果會預防防範以未然這是最好的那麼這樣子它對航空機實質沒有損害那我們有沒有看到真正的low data"},{"start":3857.627,"end":3875.407,"text":"來 部長或者是我們院安會因為現在是民航局有相關監理機關進行調查那現在華航告訴我們今天給我們的一個簡報是相對比較簡陋只有跟我們講說天氣其他的機場都是不行的那請教不管是我們現在民航局也好或是院安會也好有沒有看到當天的一個確實的一個數據"},{"start":3878.363,"end":3904.129,"text":"跟委員報告 基本上民航局這邊已經訪談了相關的駕駛跟公司那有關派遣的相關天氣資料我們已經拿到也有看到相關的數據當天的數據狀況當天的我們還要再調還要再調對 因為相關Meta資料現在4月30號了 4月13號兩個多禮拜以前的事情那現在今天我們做專案報告結果你跟我們講是說你的資料還要再調"},{"start":3905.029,"end":3921.867,"text":"我們的資料就是我們還要因為根據黃航剛剛講的當天因為機場的前一個小時是包含那個是由機場端來報就是新加坡 臘戶 自民等等所以這些資料基本上我們也要經過判讀跟相關的時間然後包含當天的操作來 部長本席"},{"start":3926.072,"end":3951.283,"text":"也過去也是華航的常客我搭最多的就是華航因為我覺得是值得信賴也是我們國家的航空那但是在飛安事件上來講在這次的事故裡面很多人都會懷疑不是以飛安為最優先的考量而是以維修方便所以不是選擇最近的胡志明市的機場或者是馬尼拉機場而是選擇回來到我們台灣的小港機場小港機場不在我們的這個飛行計畫裡面"},{"start":3952.763,"end":3969.538,"text":"是不是是報告員本來是沒有在飛行計畫裡面那當時我所理解的是當時的駕駛他是有判斷鄰近的那幾個機場的天氣的狀況包含新加坡在內包含馬尼拉那也包含越南那我們有沒有看到確實的當天"},{"start":3972.601,"end":3989.482,"text":"這幾個機場的氣候狀況報告委員剛剛還是華航給我們的資料我們就照單全收在華航的報告的內容其實已經有講到氣候的狀況是但我們有沒有主動去了解跟掌握這個部分我們在調資料當中銀行局正在調資料當中這個我會要求其實真的沒有那麼難調來我們先看一下"},{"start":3990.735,"end":4007.567,"text":"當天本市也去查了一下當天確實新加坡下午的地方有可能會有雷陣雨對飛航有可能有關安全的疑慮來當你也看到胡志明市胡志明市整體的氣象降雨量少以及馬尼拉"},{"start":4010.109,"end":4029.93,"text":"4月13號當天的一個氣象大致穩定但午後可能會有局部雷陣雨我想這個是專業的判斷本席都可以請同仁先去找出相關的資料那更重要的是專業的判斷你這個資料是飛航需求的資料嗎專業判斷對所以本席才逼到因為飛航需求的資料需要前一個小時"},{"start":4030.47,"end":4048.91,"text":"沒錯 所以部長本席才會提醒你如果說兩個禮拜之後到現在你們都沒有掌握資料你們只是片面的聽信華航提供的資料我覺得這不夠專業也沒有盡到監管機關的責任報告委員氣象資料民航局有掌握不是沒有掌握但是監管機關是誰"},{"start":4051.124,"end":4060.287,"text":"他有掌握啊 他有掌握本席 部長你剛剛沒有辦法回答我的問題其實我說實在話 哪個問題沒辦法回答部長你在反質詢是不是沒有 我沒有在反質詢哪個問題沒辦法回答部長 你就針對問題是啊 沒有問題啊 好不好來來來 部長本席現在在"},{"start":4071.141,"end":4097.511,"text":"要求的是交通部站在中央主管機關應該要看到我們各飛航的專業來協助飛航怎麼樣做經濟而華航主要在這一次的事件裡面讓外界質疑的聲音到現在沒有少過即便今天講得如此的好聽但是我說了到現在兩個禮拜之後到目前為止你們的飛航紀錄以及相關的航空資訊到目前為止你們沒有掌握"},{"start":4098.547,"end":4121.067,"text":"既然沒有掌握本席只是要求說是不是應該要去做一個管理以及立案調查去真真正正的了解說當天的狀況是不是符合現場的判斷報告委員民航局說他們有掌握啦只是說資料要分析需要再分析相關的資料他們真的有掌握啦不是沒掌握跟委員報告"},{"start":4122.348,"end":4130.056,"text":"如果說要這樣硬凹的話我覺得這不是一個做實現的做法沒有就是沒有那我可以請民航局提供資料給你來我們再來"},{"start":4131.786,"end":4158.115,"text":"民航局什麼時候會給國人一個清楚明白的交代針對這一次的華航的判斷的一個事件因為外界大家都在質疑其實我今天有很多的議題啊部長我說實在話我很希望能夠心平氣和跟你就專業論專業今天是在做後續的檢討我們今天沒有發生任何的人為意外我覺得這是萬幸但是萬幸完之後我們要去釐清說到底"},{"start":4159.075,"end":4180.459,"text":"華航的決策是不是站在乘客的安全為最高指導標準還是說站在他們的航空的維護的安全方面你可以搖頭那就代表請你用數據以及用你們的報告專業的來說服我們而不是到現在兩個禮拜之後給出了我們這一份只有華航單方面的一個片面資料"},{"start":4182.439,"end":4205.771,"text":"來再來 報告委員民航局的報告是用書面的他不是來台上報告但他有提供書面您可以參考他的書面報告黃航有沒有看到這一個投書有 有看到黃航剛剛跟我們講得非常的好聽喔說有包括這個這個回程的作業支持主動跟旅客致意表達歉意等等的"},{"start":4206.513,"end":4233.279,"text":"那我們來看一下這個是其中一個投書然後過去一個禮拜非常煎熬始終沒有任何正式的說明或者是更新以乘客安全當時的機上廣播以乘客安全為優先的決定感覺像是以公私利益為出發點這是大多數乘客的感受最後收到的希望能夠索取一個延誤證明但最後收到的是一個簡單的備忘錄"},{"start":4234.858,"end":4255.677,"text":"沒有忽略台北起飛13.5個小時的過程以及收到的是一個300塊的餐券跟金沙巧克力華航你的資料報告說明的很完整看起來完整"},{"start":4256.917,"end":4267.229,"text":"最大的關懷處理最大的誠意速度全力處理協助平安續行但實際上乘客的感受是這樣子天差地別這個"},{"start":4271.862,"end":4294.527,"text":"這對姐弟我們有掌握在新加坡人當時飛機回航的時候在高雄我們就盡力的供應飲料還有餐食這些東西就是為了準備下一次的起飛後來我們在當天下午就又派了一架加班機從台北到高雄然後再把高雄載到新加坡去"},{"start":4295.707,"end":4310.303,"text":"這個我們真的不是用那個航機維修的那個考量假如真的航機維修我乾脆就飛到台北就好啦我根本不需要到高雄然後再派飛機上這個大費周章所以基本上真的是底下的那個"},{"start":4313.026,"end":4338.807,"text":"東南亞的這些天氣不是很好所以我們華航的說明我覺得還是要由主管機關這邊來做一個認定因為這就代表是我們要看到一個問題今天真的是不幸中的大幸沒有造成任何的人員傷亡但我每一次在交通委員會我都講如果說要等到人員傷亡要等到後面全都排排站有很多攝影機的時候那代表我們出大事"},{"start":4339.793,"end":4345.51,"text":"不要有任何事情最好所以在這件例子上面民航局什麼時候能夠再做釐清來給國人確認"},{"start":4348.542,"end":4376.509,"text":"跟委員報告因為剛剛所提到的相關關心的天氣資料也好飛航的過程組員的判斷等等因為民航局都要根據剛剛委員所提的我們自己調查到的資料而不是單憑華航的提供的資料所以這個部分我們需要花一些時間在做處理那是不是委員這邊可以給我們如果是初步報告因為一般來講我們是完成完整的報告那如果初步的報告我們是不是建議可以一個月"},{"start":4376.923,"end":4402.288,"text":"好 一個月來 部長再來請教我們上上禮拜有討論到美國關稅的問題那你也提到是說對於觀光業以及運輸業 航運業有很大的衝擊那現在行政院提出了4100億本期兩個禮拜前在這邊有跟您就教交通部有沒有針對這個部分特別條例有爭取任何行政院這邊的支持那現在4100億出來啦本來的880億"},{"start":4406.309,"end":4422.269,"text":"沒有交通部那多增加了三四倍到4100億到目前為止沒有看到細項那我想請教4100億裡面交通部不管是觀光的部分不管是航運的部分佔了多少報告委員我們有個別跟這個航運業界空運業界"},{"start":4423.01,"end":4443.01,"text":"還有觀光業界大家都有辦過座談會那目前看起來海運跟航空的影響還沒有很大所以這個部分目前應該就是有一些調整性的東西跟彈性的東西我們有提供給業者給他們協助那另外觀光業界我昨天有跟他們座談我有看到新聞也有出來但我現在問的問題部長深度問題回答問題好4100億"},{"start":4447.774,"end":4470.251,"text":"有支持產業930億有國土安全認証1500億有照顧民生1670億這個是額外因應美國關稅那你兩個禮拜前在這邊也詢答說有特別講到觀光產業有可能會有非常大的衝擊我們那時候也說料底要從寬所以如果說有任何支持資源的力量也應該要來預先掌握"},{"start":4470.911,"end":4482.285,"text":"那4100億裡面有沒有交通的部分目前我們跟這個業者大家座談跟一些協助的方案的討論我們目前用觀光的基金應該都還能夠應付所以4100億裡面是沒有交通觀光"},{"start":4486.735,"end":4500.873,"text":"你們做決策要負責啦來最後我想今天很重要的部分還是在於是安全的部分那有兩個我再佔用一小段時間啦有兩個最近的新聞我覺得這個東西也是見為之助"},{"start":4502.048,"end":4525.963,"text":"部長一個是有行人要過馬路那高舉雙手舉了雙手意思就代表說要過馬路那結果這一個畫面裡面他可能沒有辦法播放影片那這個畫面裡面連續過了十幾台車都沒有停落那之後才讓這個行人過去這是一個部分另外下一個部分"},{"start":4526.903,"end":4550.042,"text":"因為行人在過馬路而導致於救護車已經有警示燈的救護車他要等行人過馬路而救護車才啟動那再加上早上新聞又推播我們交通部的小編跟剛剛部長一樣也是很強悍很嗆"},{"start":4553.174,"end":4580.102,"text":"就是在交通部的很嗆是講道理很嗆不會用嗆的啦很好部長我們希望就事論事就專業論專業啦所以一樣就是說在現在的執法已經我們為了要擺脫行人地獄一年多的時間但難免在社會上有遇到很多的狀況每個人都會以本位主義為考量駕駛用路人以及行人等等的部分本席認為應該都是"},{"start":4583.631,"end":4609.556,"text":"我們不能說偏廢權益都要互相尊重那在這兩個案例裡面部長看到什麼樣的狀況報告委員大家像委員剛剛所提到的大家對於大家平等的狀況的共識我認為這個社會還不足啦那但是對交通部來說最重要的行人的安全因為這關係到人命這個部分我們會去要求所以剛剛那個影片雖然沒有辦法播放但我有看過那桃園市政府也有針對"},{"start":4611.076,"end":4636.534,"text":"這十幾台車有裁罰這個部分有裁罰那針對行人的部分其實我知道因為這個我們現在開始尊重行人之後有些行人的違規的狀況我們也都看得到那這個部分該罰其實也都有罰那最近這兩年我們在行人違規的開罰的這個數量其實也增加了不少因為現在大家都有行車紀錄器如果有行車紀錄器的檢舉這些該罰其實也都會罰"},{"start":4639.155,"end":4659.5,"text":"開罰是最好的做法嗎其實不是大家的觀念是最重要的所以我們觀念的提升以及怎麼樣用制度的設計讓更多人能夠清楚明白了解一個過馬路每天大家都要做的事情的一個順暢本席只提一個這一個我覺得真的是可以研究討論"},{"start":4661.752,"end":4678.581,"text":"粉絲專頁上面也拍到日本有一個畫面他是在很多的價值朋友也抱怨就是說有看到行人在路邊的時候他不確定這行人到底要不要過馬路也因此他不確定說要不要停等那行人如果說他已經有他的習慣譬如說舉手代表是過馬路"},{"start":4680.277,"end":4700.019,"text":"另外一個部分像日本他有一個有趣的設計是說他有多畫一個過馬路時候的停等區如果說行人站在那上面代表他就是要準備過馬路那那個時候駕駛就應該要停下來讓行人過但如果說他不是停在那個地方的話可能他只是在路邊等朋友"},{"start":4700.64,"end":4710.467,"text":"他就不一定要停下來我覺得光這樣子的一個部分也許在幾個路口可以做事辦的方式非號之路口是可以這麼做的"},{"start":4711.479,"end":4740.712,"text":"我們可以來示範我們可以來示範我覺得這是蠻好的方法但我本席提醒一下像這個它是畫在馬路上如果說畫的話應該是要畫在行人畫裡面一點是畫裡面一點不然我覺得我看了也覺得說這個小朋友在馬路上側邊好像也有點危險為了要去那邊停等在日本可能比較安全在台灣可能比較危險所以部長針對這個部分如果說能夠來示範什麼時候能夠來推行或說至少來做一個研擬跟規劃設計省到找個地方來做好不好"},{"start":4741.72,"end":4754.645,"text":"我們省道很快速的來示範幾個路口 好不好好 我想還是要跟地方政府溝通之後來去做推行 對好不好 新北市跟台北市我們來跟他們溝通好 感謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝洪孟楷委員現在請李崑澤委員執行"},{"start":4766.337,"end":4775.23,"text":"好 謝謝召委 請一下部長好 交通部陳部長台鐵五代董事長高鐵政董事長好 高鐵政董事長楊振軍局長好 楊振軍局長"},{"start":4786.685,"end":4813.036,"text":"部長好有關於近期社會大眾對於台鐵月台門的設置他的設置雖然是事半但是他的經費高達一億五千萬那社會大眾對於這樣的一個月台門設置及所需的經費大家議論紛紛其實有兩種主要的聲音第一種是要不要做月台門有必要嗎"},{"start":4814.136,"end":4829.046,"text":"第二種是說有必要做但是有必要要花這麼多錢嗎 為什麼要花這麼多錢那其實有關於月台門設置的這樣的一個討論最主要是在我記得是在2022年11月28日"},{"start":4833.888,"end":4855.231,"text":"台鐵台北站有一位行動不方便的旅客啊他因為做輪椅操作的問題啊或者是人潮擁擠啊不慎摔落軌道 因而受傷社會上大家都很不敢的啦所以就討論到說是不是有越台門設置的議題所以在"},{"start":4856.76,"end":4880.856,"text":"11月30號就是過了兩天之後我們在交通委員會我就質詢相關月台門的這樣的一個議題是不是說我們要來解釋相關月台狹窄的這個問題或者是要討論是否要設置月台門以及要設置月台門有哪些的優先的順序或者是相關的時程"},{"start":4881.963,"end":4900.275,"text":"那其實我要跟部長提醒一下其實不只是2022年討論到要設置月台門與否在2017年其實台鐵在社會大眾因為每年都發生很多的這種衰落鐵軌的這樣一個事件"},{"start":4901.135,"end":4919.788,"text":"所以說社會大眾就有在討論要不要設月台門那當時我記得是要設置在百福站百福站就是在七堵區他有一個百福站是否要設置這樣的一個月台門但是當時因為車種複雜他的車寬車距車門的車寬車距不一樣以及月台的這個寬距也不一樣還有相關技術的問題系統整合的問題所以就這個計畫就延宕下來"},{"start":4931.195,"end":4950.601,"text":"那現在設置這樣的一個越台南門的議題最主要是屢屢都發生很多的這樣那個跌落 落軌的事件不管是台鐵或是高鐵 高鐵最近就發生了三件這樣一個落軌的事件其實不只是最近的這些件數"},{"start":4951.781,"end":4971.547,"text":"最主要的我看這個雙鐵台鐵高鐵每年平均的落軌事件都在10件以上我們看到台鐵的2022到2024以及高鐵的2022到2024的落軌事件都超過10件以上其實高鐵更多啦因為計算"},{"start":4973.559,"end":4995.55,"text":"申報上來的這個建樹計算的基礎不一樣台鐵是有跌落軌道有受傷與否或者是啊造成車輛的延誤有沒有但是只要跌落軌道他們就通報就作為計算基礎高鐵沒有啊高鐵只有啊"},{"start":4996.687,"end":5021.857,"text":"造成列車的延誤啊才會列入這個計算是不是這樣來高鐵鄭董事長講一下委員說的是的我們有報告給鐵道局的是有列車延誤五分鐘以上的這事件我們才會通報所以跌落受傷了就沒有計算為什麼我知道呢因為我處理過一個服務案件民眾在桃園站他"},{"start":5023.522,"end":5038.447,"text":"下電梯手扶梯要去搭高鐵他不慎跌落軌道受傷雖然高鐵有做後續的處理但是就沒有列入這樣一個跌落軌道的一個計算了所以我要說的就是說我們必須要更嚴謹的態度來處理落軌的這種狀況申報要確實而且啊"},{"start":5043.388,"end":5065.183,"text":"弱鬼的事件是非常的多 弱鬼的事件有看到行動不方便的朋友或者是長者 或者是兒童 或者是身體不舒服的旅客或者是因為旅客因為擁擠 推擠或者是個人生命選擇的這樣的一個狀況所以啊這個都必須去做相關的 所以說"},{"start":5066.277,"end":5095.171,"text":"部長你認為這種月台門的設置是有必要性嗎報告委員必要性我們要看第一剛剛委員有提到是擁擠的部分那第二個就是說針對安全的部分弱軌的次數比較多的那些車站代表說它擁擠的程度可能是相對高我們會優先來處理那我所知道的是高鐵是不是有計畫未來我們盡量每一個車站都要有做月台門的設置高鐵在2024年的9月就已經正式宣布要全面的來裝設月台門"},{"start":5095.871,"end":5116.344,"text":"而且是以板橋跟新竹 因為新竹風很大那板橋因為旅客也眾多 他們要以這兩個站來做優先他們是要全線都要坐越他們 是不是啊 鄭董事長說明一下 是的各位報告 我們確實整個12站都已經發包那尤其在今年的1月已經正式開工了"},{"start":5116.844,"end":5140.451,"text":"那目前的進度我們準備在三年內就是117年年中的時候整個12個月台的這個月台們全部可以做完那目前我們已經今年裡面應該可以完成這個Polotype的這個測試完成然後我們首先就會剛才委員所提到從新竹跟板橋先做那這應該在明年就可以做了在2024年9月"},{"start":5141.632,"end":5150.33,"text":"高鐵就正式宣布要全線去做了我又宣布其實在2024年同年的年底12月在左營站"},{"start":5151.229,"end":5174.731,"text":"就發生了旅客不幸落軌身亡的這樣一個事故其實這個月台門設置其實是有它的必要性好 那現在民眾會說設置月台的月台門在安全性的提升是有幫助的現在民眾更質疑的是說為什麼300公尺的四座就要花了1億5000萬"},{"start":5176.713,"end":5201.741,"text":"為什麼要花這麼多錢當然這個試做的這樣的一個項目不會是只有說那個月台門下降的這個部分而已它有包含這個事辦的一面升降的四欄繩的月台門還有障礙物偵測的系統還有列車感測感知系統CCTV的監控系統資訊整合系統還有機房監視等一次性的固定設備那個"},{"start":5204.926,"end":5211.707,"text":"我聖遠代理董事長來說明一下這些啊他的各系統的功能跟他的必要性因為啊"},{"start":5213.012,"end":5234.963,"text":"下降的這個部分300公尺1億5千萬當然不是只有下降的這個部分它有很多的系統這樣的系統在其他裝置的時候就不用再做了嘛是不是就是說你這個月台是兩邊嘛你現在先做一邊嘛另外一邊在做的時候它的價格是不是就更便宜來說明一下仔細說明報告齁委員剛剛講的沒有錯齁因為我們這個屬於四半齁所以我們"},{"start":5239.045,"end":5258.991,"text":"大概同仁有很多的想法希望能夠把很多的功能放進來包括監控的部分也包括我們的相關的資訊看可不可以傳到我們現在所謂的鐵道園去所以監控的事情比較多一點那剛剛提到我們現在是一側但是未來我們是兩側所以就是說裡面的建設一些監控我就可以少掉很多"},{"start":5259.831,"end":5279.205,"text":"作為我們來講成本會比較會更低啦另外一個我們針對這個事辦以後我們會相關的功能我們再做一個檢視有些其實可以不用那麼多啦我們把它剪掉未來的這個月台門如果做的話一定會更便宜好 吳董事長我再來提問一個問題就是相關的這個月台門"},{"start":5281.963,"end":5305.963,"text":"上升或下降一直在下降的時候我們看到很多的工廠或公司或是居家的鐵門因為下來的時候造成了民眾或是兒童不慎壓傷或者是造成生命的一些衝擊的狀況那我們這個安全的狀況當然我知道會有一些接觸式的感應或是非接觸式的感應市井的系統偵測的系統來簡單說明這些安全的"},{"start":5308.945,"end":5322.741,"text":"我先報告一下像這個剛剛講我們就有所謂的非接觸性的用感光箱去看如果有的話它一定會停止那還有所謂的接觸式的你就碰到房甲裝置這個部分在這功能裡面我們目前現在都有考慮進來"},{"start":5323.882,"end":5351.38,"text":"好 相關的旅客的安全是最重要的一個前提那部長也應該確實的相關的督促我知道這個一億五千萬的爭議其實它是經過公開的招標然後政風單位一開始也都有相關的按照程序來做相關的處置那我們希望要對社會大眾來說明清楚對於社會大眾安全的提升尤其必要性的都應該要去做 以上好 謝謝委員"},{"start":5353.894,"end":5375.599,"text":"謝謝李坤澤委員現在請傅坤祺總召謝謝主席 請部長請交通部陳部長"},{"start":5385.396,"end":5410.175,"text":"部長早我想今天我們的詢答都是關心我們整體交通的發展是因為主席給的時間很短所以我們能夠盡快好不好好 請問及答好不好好本席提醒一下2020蔡英文總統競選連任的時候推出的交通政策白皮書很清楚接駐西高鐵東快鐵"},{"start":5412.489,"end":5440.076,"text":"部長知道這個事嗎是我知道要不要履行正在做西高鐵東快鐵東快鐵的時速要提升到多少車速部長了解嗎車速這個我沒有把它記起來局長是不是可以回答時速我們是透過提升路線標準來提高平均速度最高速度並沒有提升一樣是130"},{"start":5441.72,"end":5457.069,"text":"你可以回去翻一下過去幾次2020年本席跟歷任的交通部長的詢答或是歷任的行政院長的詢答你們可以去查清楚交通部所提出來是時速可以到160公里160公里"},{"start":5460.382,"end":5484.085,"text":"如果你們不知道的話可以回去看一下歷次的詢問報告委員 剛剛局長有說就是後來有經過研究 確實當時有這麼說但是經過研究之後認為不可行160 安全沒有說可不可行現在的交通技術是在逐步的往上提升當時對人民的承諾是160不能執政越久 這個承諾越來越低"},{"start":5485.526,"end":5513.279,"text":"我想交通的技術只有日新月異沒有在跟人民宣示你們是越做越差我想160是過去很清楚的一個政策說明你們必須要間接旅行的來旅行當時也提到當時速到160的時候環島是6小時全國共同的生活圈"},{"start":5515.069,"end":5528.136,"text":"所以這是對全國國人來講是非常雀躍的一件事情當時我們對這個政策也非常的支持那部長從2017年這個花東鐵路雙軌電氣化從開始的這個可行研究410億到後來核定456億大概都400多億的範疇"},{"start":5542.758,"end":5551.168,"text":"裡面啦 前瞻預算編列了多少錢269269億那到現在為止 前瞻計畫已經積極扶持 行快完畢了前瞻計畫裡面 總共華東雙軌電信化 總共編列了多少錢實際編列了多少錢"},{"start":5563.356,"end":5567.397,"text":"前瞻計畫裡面對花東雙軌電氣化實際實際編列了多少 實編63.53億所以當時的8000多億的前瞻計畫民進黨政府宣示啊在花東雙軌的部分269億"},{"start":5590.68,"end":5617.211,"text":"在整個8000多億的前瞻裡面269億用在花蓮台東所以所以當時這個占比就讓前瞻計畫和其他給花東地區的預算就相對的被排擠結果現在前瞻計畫已經差不多8000多億差不多快要結束了"},{"start":5618.669,"end":5619.632,"text":"結果269億剩下62億為什麼"},{"start":5625.693,"end":5650.065,"text":"報告委員 當時是因為他編列的時程比較後面所以其他的預算跟其他的計畫都已經在先行了那前瞻應該這個預算要保留啊那是核定的時間的問題 但是跟委員報告後來我們還是用公務預算我們用一般的公務預算一樣可以支應同樣的一個計畫當然用一般的公務預算可以做但是既然公務預算要做 為什麼要匡列前瞻呢"},{"start":5650.905,"end":5673.361,"text":"所以你們現在自漏馬腳 當時的269億因為高舉了269億前瞻的大旗所以花蓮台東地區在使用這8000多億前瞻的部分就被相對的排擠了到今天為止真相揭露出來269億 200多億不見了"},{"start":5676.052,"end":5703.712,"text":"那還是回到公務預算那當時前瞻劃給花蓮台東人269億那200億跑哪裡去了報告委員那個部分本來就沒有辦法去保留預算但是我們一樣是用公務預算對花東的居民我們一樣是這麼重視還有最後前瞻的餘額如果要用的話也用在花蓮台東"},{"start":5705.466,"end":5730.839,"text":"不然的話你們整體八千多億的前瞻最後用在花蓮台東是多少你們很難跟人民來交代您的提醒我們來爭取很難對人民交代如果你沒有確實的來履行這樣的一個責任我們很難對於最後一期的前瞻來表示贊同"},{"start":5732.145,"end":5759.922,"text":"本席在隆重的讓部長能夠了解報告委員 這個我們來爭取對於啊當時提速到160公里最主要的原因最主要的原因就是因為啊花東雙軌電氣化提速到160成為東快鐵就是因為花蓮到吉安有七個危險平交道這七個危險平交道"},{"start":5761.974,"end":5790.94,"text":"必須納入立體化才能夠把整個曲線的速度加快這是當時不管是部長院長再三再三的聲明也支持而且由交通部概括承受因為它不是城市的縫合不是為了地方的繁榮發展而是要履行環島的六小時共同生活圈"},{"start":5795.028,"end":5818.113,"text":"一直到去年本席都支持花中雙軌從2017年的410億到2024年因為要把立體化花蓮到吉安的七個危險平交道所以提升到955億交通部我們都支持"},{"start":5819.892,"end":5834.449,"text":"但是怎麼會在你任內又把它修正成691億然後把花蓮吉安七個危險評價到立體化全數排除部長你要做歷史的罪人嗎"},{"start":5837.178,"end":5864.829,"text":"報告委員 這個審查的過程有它的專業性那我們要考量到一致性跟公平性所以呢 雙軌電氣化我們就把它拿來做雙軌電氣化但是如果是高價化的部分我們另外可以做高價化的來做其他的計畫部長一件衣服要做兩次嘛 同一件衣服要做兩次你講的是完全不可行的事情嘛表示你完全沒有準備嘛"},{"start":5866.516,"end":5884.668,"text":"你把政策改成這樣你做好了準備嗎同一個路廊你要做兩次嗎報告員如果現在我們把高價化的計畫趕快提出來我們到時候會一次試做不會分兩次好那你什麼時候要提出來這個應該是"},{"start":5888.152,"end":5911.381,"text":"花蓮縣政府如果趕快提出來我們就趕快把他計畫趕快來審查這怎麼跟花蓮縣政府又扯上關係呢交通部已經概括承受啦高加化的事情是地方政府提出當然當時已經是納入了這個是中央改善危險道路而且符合東快鐵整體曲線的速度包括費用都是由中央概括承受"},{"start":5920.185,"end":5947.61,"text":"有幾位部長宣示過你知道嗎這我不曉得本席請你回去google一下林佳龍部長王國才部長蘇貞昌院長陳建仁院長在院會的詢答都表示過本席再提醒你一下這些幕僚不曉得跟你講什麼你要回去看看過去的部長跟院長的詢答"},{"start":5949.068,"end":5976.513,"text":"還有對人民的承諾是什麼這不同於宜蘭跟嘉義他們是做地方繁榮的城市縫合而東快點是中央的政策並不是來提升地方的繁榮而是環島共同生活圈是蔡總統 民進黨政府的交通白皮書部長了解了嗎"},{"start":5980.763,"end":6001.21,"text":"這題本席還會再請教你希望幕僚給你正確的訊息也希望你回去看一下那對於行政院院長所提出要把這個票價這個花東居民的票價要有優惠的方式"},{"start":6002.691,"end":6027.808,"text":"本席請問你什麼時候可以提出來報告委員我們希望因為票價的調漲是在六月二十三我們希望在六月二十三也可以同步我們希望我們現在不是什麼時候提出來這個這個政策嗎讓我們能夠了解嗎報告委員花東居民的優惠這是確定的政策一定會做但是確定的方案跟內容目前台鐵正在研議"},{"start":6029.147,"end":6049.48,"text":"什麼時候可以演繹出來我們希望6月23可以跟票價的整體同步來進行本席講得很清楚嘛你不要一直老是講6月23同步6月23之前我們總要討論過吧是啊我會聽你們是關門自己做事情嗎我會請他們提早提出來提早什麼時候可以提出來有這麼困難嗎我們一個月一個月的時間來提出"},{"start":6058.786,"end":6085.298,"text":"一個月今天是今天30號到5月305月30以前好不好好 5月30以前另外啊對於怎麼優惠是一件事情怎麼把觀光客吸引進來是一件事情對於整個你們這次所訂定的平均的票價"},{"start":6087.625,"end":6113.675,"text":"全國平均是26調漲26%但卻對花蓮台東地區調漲是32本身認為這個要先趨於一致性要先趨於一致性全國應該是一致性報告委員他有遞遠遞減啦因為那個運具的競爭但是現在平均算出來就是這樣子嘛"},{"start":6116.479,"end":6142.581,"text":"平均算出來就是這樣子吧所以你們現在的政策本其實希望你現在的政策要進行調整嘛這不是懲罰偏遠地區的人民嗎也不會 其實台北到台中的漲幅只有19%台北到台中19%台東19%所以越遠 越偏遠其實是越遠到花蓮花蓮比較近"},{"start":6143.567,"end":6154.846,"text":"花蓮比較近所以到花蓮是多少離台北就32沒有錯32好到花蓮32那請教一下"},{"start":6155.936,"end":6173.895,"text":"你們為什麼可以把它認為台北到花蓮可以到32%包委員這是以距離來算以距離來算好 西部從台北可能到彰化你也32%台北到台中的漲幅也是差不多那請問一下台北到台中的交通所有的幹線"},{"start":6175.436,"end":6203.872,"text":"包括高鐵包括高速公路密密麻麻高速公路快速道路有多少條報告委員所以花東有優惠方案我們正在研擬本席現在告訴你喔在去年10月就已經在本委員會已經做了決議在整體花東道路沒有改善完成之前不可以做不可以做"},{"start":6205.933,"end":6234.903,"text":"票價的調漲因為那是唯一對外公共運具就只有台鐵這已經做成了決議你們對立法院的決議完全視若無睹嗎所以花東會有優惠方案本席認為你在優惠方案之前應該先要想清楚整體的交通要如何解決如何改善"},{"start":6236.395,"end":6264.538,"text":"這個才是交通部該做的當務之急啊所以啊本席在這裡啊希望啊部長能夠體恤啊零四零三大地震到現在現在花蓮假日的住房大概四成五成平日大概兩成所有的產業愛好遍野"},{"start":6267.19,"end":6294.998,"text":"呂書業一家一家的關門國家整體的觀光去年逆差是900萬人次出入國逆差消費是7000億元我們記錄的是東南亞最後一名部長今年可不可以把這個成績改善報告委員今年一定會比去年更成長我們會努力這個成長的幅度跟其他國家成長的幅度一樣可以嗎"},{"start":6296.142,"end":6310.546,"text":"呃 要看比哪個國家好 比大多數的國家要成長 東南亞大多數的國家要成長可以嗎 我們盡量來努力你的成績單我們很快就看到了 好好不好 好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝傅坤祺委員現在請陳雪生委員執行好 請交通部陳部長"},{"start":6328.906,"end":6357.171,"text":"沒問題何局長部長昨天我到高雄去參加華信華信高雄到馬祖我們的啟航典禮昨天陳金邁市長也親自前來我們馬祖的山長也趕到高雄去了"},{"start":6358.732,"end":6367.821,"text":"我想我在致詞的時候首先先講這一個高雄到馬祖的航線應該是創下藍綠藍綠我們共同合作這個最佳的一個範例那麼當場陳金邁市長也提到"},{"start":6378.783,"end":6395.697,"text":"官兵的部分,高雄的子弟他在補助每一張單人票價1500塊當然因為軍方那邊他可能有免票,這個他們已經在討論了,而且交代秘書長跟國防部密切的協調"},{"start":6396.926,"end":6408.535,"text":"那麼為了促進人流,他們高雄的觀光業者陳金派市長也允諾給予優惠的方案,甚至提出希望人流能夠加強"},{"start":6409.858,"end":6428.093,"text":"那麼當然馬祖的鄉親對這樣的一個守航非常的興奮也期待,但是覺得班次太少陳姬邁市長也表示,確實太少了一點那我支持的時候也講了,在商言商嘛,華航也好,華信也好"},{"start":6429.073,"end":6455.783,"text":"他是一個股份有限公司嘛,是不是?是但官方去介入,因為他還有私股、民股在裡面嘛對,華航是上市公司所以希望這個航線,把它促成以後,能夠還有第二班、第三班當然謝董過去的努力,我們非常感念他高董上來以後,高董原來是華信的董事長現在華信董事長派了沒有,我不曉得"},{"start":6457.593,"end":6471.626,"text":"董事長就是高董還是高董建?華信還沒我一直期待我有沒有機會去部長你看看有機會的話可以推薦一下好不好大財不要小用"},{"start":6472.625,"end":6499.327,"text":"不會不會,我們非常感謝高雄市政府還有中華航空公司、華信航空公司還有民航局交通部部長在內非常的努力讓航線能夠在6月6日順利起航這個藍綠我們能夠這樣合作最好了把航線順利起航,當然裡面還有立法委員"},{"start":6500.99,"end":6524.023,"text":"那個誰啊,許智傑啦,許智傑委員啦還有我們昆澤委員啦,大家都幫了很多的忙啦第二件事情就是這個有沒有機會,高董你在這邊,有沒有機會第二班因為你禮拜五飛過去,那回來啊,國防課還要回來啊"},{"start":6525.407,"end":6535.857,"text":"演習會再加一班好不好,你努力一下我們努力好不好我們飛航以後如果可以的話你再努力一下那我也接續上次總諮詢啊,對周院長總諮詢這個錢要憲政我來出沒什麼道理啊"},{"start":6542.513,"end":6566.781,"text":"這個我們先試飛嘛好不好先飛嘛我們先飛啦運量有起來其實縣政府就不用補貼如果運量有超過七成那是最好的大家都不用補貼可以讓華信可以繼續飛下去那如果超過七成或許委員剛剛所提到的兩班我們就有機會我們把運量先養起來我們非花蓮非台東你有要台東縣政府花蓮縣政府也七折嗎"},{"start":6568.906,"end":6596.199,"text":"這個來保七這個沒道理啦是不是報告委員當時是縣府自己提出來的對啊 是我們自己提出來啊為了促其實現嘛所以我們很無奈陳金派事長講的這是社會責任啊我們把它做起來之後 華信來努力然後我們也請一些旅行業者大家一起共同來努力把這個運量把它做起來行的便利 交通的安全 交通部你們責無旁貸了嘛"},{"start":6597.062,"end":6620.788,"text":"要縣政府去補貼你們很丟人耶七八千億的預算在那邊要縣政府去補貼這個小小的幾百萬這個說不過去了好不好我們一起加油一下好不好等飛機飛了以後再說高董你請回謝謝啦你休息一下嘛第二個就是馬祖大橋啊我在總諮詢的時候以前288億"},{"start":6622.994,"end":6646.08,"text":"從一百多億幾十億到兩百八十八億這是4C精算出來的咧4C精算出來的東西卓院長突然跟我提到說要三百八十幾億我嚇一跳我想部長也嚇一跳那麼英國的顧問公司他的數據是依據4C4C工程顧問公司來的那我說部長"},{"start":6647.369,"end":6673.495,"text":"能不能再找世襲啊再精算一次好不好你看國內的一些重大公共工程高鐵、桃園從高價改為地下化六百多億啊這個錢都給了當然目前國內的環境整個世界的環境是比較困難啦我們在財政上比較困難我也不急於意思說"},{"start":6674.724,"end":6699.93,"text":"我們今天來討論這個問題但是我們機場的改建機場的改建跟馬祖大橋我想是馬祖最重要的基礎建設而且影響深遠另外何局長下去可能要再請你上來一下可以再上來沒問題北竿機場空難兩次"},{"start":6704.039,"end":6730.999,"text":"我弟弟全家無口利難我到現在還是非常的悲痛常常想念到我弟弟馬祖連一個標準的山西機場都沒有這還得了啊這個機場馬祖不是只是我們馬祖陪肝的攔肝的是我們全體國人的而且馬祖的情幣我們的巨肉寶蟲我們的藍眼淚已經是世界的景觀了"},{"start":6732.119,"end":6746.15,"text":"是不是,各國的人,外國人也都來馬祖來所以這個機場的興建勢在必行當然我也很感謝行政院已經核定了第一期是兩百二十幾億還有第二期的航廈工程等等"},{"start":6747.695,"end":6776.542,"text":"我也希望他的開工能夠順利當然這裡面分兩階段今天這個港務公司沒有來我想何局長我們馬祖民眾還有一些聲音啊也是配套這配套最大的聲音當然是來自航空站還有利隆航空他們怕為什麼錢多勢少離家近啊他們怕說這個機場一旦施工那麼這些人要移到南竿去"},{"start":6777.947,"end":6779.751,"text":"何記長你回答我一下,這些人應該都不會動吧"},{"start":6782.928,"end":6806.885,"text":"跟委員報告因為剛剛有提到委員有提到分兩階段然後所以現在在做第一階段的細設那這個部分是港公司在做那在這個過程中我們也會看工程細設的狀況然後相關航空站其實在施工期間細設是不會動因為基本上都還要維持一年那施工期間的話那他可能會有做局部的調整那航空站還是要有人在那邊運作"},{"start":6810.247,"end":6835.476,"text":"消防人員都也在嘛基本上還是要配置那因為施工期間有施工車輛等等的相關人員也要飲食等等所以這部分航空站的人員跟相關利用或者是相關的商店等等我們會來再做一些協調跟溝通說明我想希望能夠學澳門機場新建的模式修建的模式邊飛邊做當然你在"},{"start":6836.662,"end":6857.49,"text":"圍堤的部分,城鄉的部分,不影響飛機安全的情況之下,你怎麼樣去把它區隔出來這個我想在十四、十五我們到馬祖去交通委員會考察的時候,我也希望召委能夠親自出席"},{"start":6858.905,"end":6877.263,"text":"那麼在考察的時候順便跟我們鄉親提出來如果夜間施工或是那邊施工的品質影響到我們地區居民的生活品質會有一些噪音等等影響到的還有觀光"},{"start":6879.724,"end":6896.473,"text":"因為機場在興建,公安課勢必會減少班次也減少起碼馬祖北竿地區的民眾飛來台北一般沒有問題至少我希望兩班、三班也可以對觀光的影響"},{"start":6897.942,"end":6921.642,"text":"民航局可能也要做一些對噪音、空氣品質、還有公關人數減少這些做一些配套我想在15號我想到北竿去做一個說明會當然部長你先承諾我,你晚上不要離開你第二天早上才能走好不好?好早上你的幕僚人員跟我講說,部長下午有重要的會議"},{"start":6922.623,"end":6950.554,"text":"我說當天最重要的就是馬祖的交通考察所以你如果晚上下午就走的話這我覺得不好啦好不好你先承諾我我先來排行程第二天早上好不好我們準價報告召委我們準價讓你因為交通部很忙我知道啦好不好好那麼何局長這邊請你做一些準備除了這個改建的期程"},{"start":6952.105,"end":6953.814,"text":"約略的,你跟港務公司講一下"},{"start":6955.612,"end":6980.994,"text":"那麼跑道的鋪面會影響,那沒辦法鋪面的時間要多長,我想第三行下你應該有所經驗了嘛,對不對我覺得你初估應該可以估得出來啦,好不好我想跟民眾既然辦了說明會了嘛我們跟民眾能夠解決他一些疑慮免得每天在那邊機場的事情這個機場的信念勢在必行"},{"start":6983.136,"end":7008.963,"text":"這飛安很重要馬祖到目前為止你看連山西的機場而不可得還在半導航的狀況會影響到我們飛安的安全所以這個北竿機場的興建非常重要那麼何機長我想你請回好不好另外現在科技非常發達了我在前兩個禮拜出國那麼經過我們中正機場"},{"start":7012.943,"end":7022.538,"text":"裡面人流非常多,慢慢的已經恢復了空氣品質的改善尤其重要我到一個廁所,機場公司董事長跟我講,那個廁所本來有惡臭"},{"start":7024.127,"end":7048.667,"text":"後來他稍微做一些科技的處理能夠把空氣品質提升既然我們這個第三航廈是目前比較後面我們新的一個機場對裡面空氣品質的改善有一些能夠利用科技的部分我提醒注意一下好不好好剛才傅坤祺總召提到這個"},{"start":7051.448,"end":7061.931,"text":"台鐵高鐵票價雙漲高鐵沒有漲那現在你什麼時候不漲,現在這個時候漲又碰到關稅的問題外面的環境蠻不好的很多店有的打壓30年沒有漲了我知道一定要漲的這個不漲是講不過去的啦所以我想說有沒有機會動場跟電費一樣"},{"start":7081.463,"end":7090.656,"text":"報告委員這個部分如果是就花東的部分我們會有優惠的方案讓花東的居民可以用比較便宜比較不受這個漲價影響的一個方案出來"},{"start":7093.103,"end":7115.57,"text":"不會有影響嗎?你們配到6月份也會出來吧?6月份會出來,那影響會盡量降低,不會說完全沒影響因為這個也是全國一致性的問題所以台鐵的票價已經30年沒有漲了,大家應該都能理解台鐵要漲沒有錯,你稍微服務的品質能夠跟高鐵一樣高鐵服務,我昨天去高雄回來,高鐵服務品質非常好"},{"start":7116.551,"end":7144.79,"text":"我們鄭董在長榮總市長他這個CEO這個經營非常的不錯啦當然我原來也聽說高董要去什麼台鐵什麼的台鐵真的要向高鐵學習怎麼樣轉型這很重要台鐵如果可以跟高鐵一樣那就太好了這很重要另外就是這個我們機場興建我又想到一些問題也就是公共工程你看我們的大邱橋"},{"start":7146.227,"end":7168.991,"text":"為什麼?那個海域風浪非常大施工非常不容易我們縣長王縣長他從前縣長留下來一百多億的工程目前已經執行了五十多億了執行一半了他希望這一百多億的工程能夠在他任內完成如期如止的完成"},{"start":7170.117,"end":7198.762,"text":"那目前大邱橋也陷入這個問題當然明後年應該會完成還有塘後橋塘後大橋我上次去年去交通委員會考察的時候他答應我今年三月份會完工但是目前已經跳票了馬祖我為什麼講這個呢缺工缺料缺工缺料還有我們那個秦碧的停車場到目前為止還沒有消息"},{"start":7199.724,"end":7228.72,"text":"我去考察三次,已經連續三四年了希望趕快把他弄出來,好不好?前壁停車場還有橋子的遊客,橋子的遊客中心橋子到大丘,那個頭端那邊有遊客中心這個橋弄好以後,我跟你講公關客滿多的,遊客中心很重要所以這個遊客中心到目前為止,工程還停滯所以就是說缺工缺料"},{"start":7229.78,"end":7248.726,"text":"交通部在這部分能夠協助的,我也當然執行過行政院公共工程委員會,請他們多協助所以部長你答應我可不可以,有沒有問題?盡量會協助,我們也希望能夠加速請你的停車場拜託好不好,交代公安署動作快一點還有彈後橋,大橋橋當然是營建署的"},{"start":7254.421,"end":7263.454,"text":"我想其他的就等交通委員會考察的時候,請部長多做一些功課,對馬祖的問題尤其馬祖大橋,我昨天也打電話給部長"},{"start":7265.331,"end":7291.609,"text":"現在我因為錢的問題啊其實也不多部長是不是能夠請世紀公司能夠做一些再精算一次好不好再精算一次因為我問過陳商啊標金門大學的王董我先邀標嘛不一定是他啊他起碼三百億他可以做啊他還有錢賺那天周院長答覆我要三百八十幾億"},{"start":7292.935,"end":7305.781,"text":"有沒有算錯了我不知道當然我們都不是專家這個我去瞭解一下我去問一些比較專業的下一次我在質詢的時候我想請部長也回答我一些問題謝謝部長你辛苦了謝謝"},{"start":7309.541,"end":7331.426,"text":"好 謝謝我們陳寫生委員的執行那特別跟各位報告我們跟委員會報告廖先祥委員執行完畢我們就休息十分鐘那何新淳委員執行完畢我們就處理臨時動議那現在請何新淳委員執行"},{"start":7338.76,"end":7342.582,"text":"謝謝郭城 趙偉 我們請陳部長以及民行局何局長趙偉 部長要跟你行禮來 部長還有何局長"},{"start":7358.094,"end":7362.318,"text":"部長好今天我還是要就較於有關台中機場跟高鐵的問題我先就台中機場的問題再來確認一下因為可能局長之前有口頭報告過我們也側面得知台中機場要增加新的航線"},{"start":7377.771,"end":7403.23,"text":"那我雖然也開過協調會有聽到局長口頭上的說法那也看到有部分媒體的說法但是呢我還是要再確認一下因為部長這很重要喔我們現在這個虎航到底要開的這個新的航線不管是韓國的濟州島或者是日本的名古屋那到目前為止喔"},{"start":7404.071,"end":7410.785,"text":"我們上網去看虎航還沒有正式公佈也還沒有公告那也還沒有開賣"},{"start":7412.378,"end":7436.736,"text":"所以呢我因為過去曾經有過不太好的紀錄就是公告了之後但是還是沒飛那所以我還是要再確認一下我為中部的鄉親要爭取這個新的航線到底有沒有確定部長報告委員這個新的航線有確定現在虎航已經提出班表那目前民航局只要一審核過了他們就可以開始開賣民航局什麼時候會審核過應該是很快吧"},{"start":7442.199,"end":7469.234,"text":"一個禮拜之內會審核通過應該一個禮拜之內就會審核通過所以這兩條新增的航線是確定的這個是確定的那是包機還是定期航班報告委員這個是定期航班是定期航班那我希望拜託民航局這邊再督促第一個我們非常高興樂觀騎乘有新的航線增加直飛韓國濟州島跟日本的名古屋而且不是包機是定期航班"},{"start":7470.474,"end":7493.2,"text":"所以一個禮拜之內拜託民航局儘速來審定這個班表趕快請虎航公布好不好 公告好不好好 這個我們一個禮拜之內趕快一個禮拜之內 那我不希望有任何其他的一個突發狀況這是第一個第二個 既然我們新增航線那我一直在講究的 講求的就是台中機場的設施設備跟服務"},{"start":7498.203,"end":7522.224,"text":"董事長請回那部長你也跟我去考察過這個台中機場我想你應該走了好幾次了而且上次你也有承諾包括跟民航局何局長也都承諾對於這個台中航站的這個未來的擴充的一個計畫不用等到2040那我們要做調整希望能夠在這個競速的一個"},{"start":7524.285,"end":7546.719,"text":"階段性可以有擴增的一個計畫那局長也告訴我正在調整對不對局長向委員報告有關這個就是有關台中機場的擴充的部分如果是屬於未來的第三航廈的部分那我們在整體規劃裡面會去做這樣的一個處理去規劃以往規劃是在既有的航廈這個戰區範圍"},{"start":7549.321,"end":7563.217,"text":"那我們認為這個台中機場的運量跟相關的接駁的設施應該在做重新的思考所以後來我們就建議就是說我們會跟顧問公司來討論如何在楊溪區的部分部分空間來做相關的處理"},{"start":7564.258,"end":7588.207,"text":"部長那請你也要全力支持也要全力督促他們及早把這個規劃趕快的來做報告因為上次你有親自承諾過那我們希望的台中機場要擴大服務除了第三航道之外那部分的這個站體的這個相關的服務設施跟動線我們都希望藉由擴充可以來做最大的改善"},{"start":7588.727,"end":7613.238,"text":"第二個那如果在現在的這個擴大航站的規劃還沒出來之前就既有現有的航站的這本體如何的去提升跟改善它的動線我覺得這也是很重要我之前去考察謝謝次長跟這個局長陪同也做了部分我知道包括這個e-gate這樣子的一個這個數位通關有增加那"},{"start":7614.498,"end":7640.383,"text":"行李的這個動線也稍作調整但是我還必須提醒局長我們還是在目前看起來我們中部鄉親使用台中機場還是有一些怨言包括行李的一個動線還是需要再改進那包括了這個檢疫的這個X光機造成的這個湧射那延誤了大家取行李的時間那延誤了這個可以離開的時間這個我相信"},{"start":7644.468,"end":7655.14,"text":"我們在既有的這個設施設備這樣子的一個場域裡面是不是請局長再要求再檢討再規劃的改善的更好可以嗎 局長"},{"start":7656.277,"end":7681.18,"text":"跟委員報告確實陳萌委員的之前的質詢跟提醒那雖然我們今年台中站1月有開過會那主要針對的就是有關朱如溫的部分的檢疫的一個動線所以造成那個空間確實有比較擁擠最近我們也台中站也會再來跟這個航空站的部分相關的單位防檢疫啦這個單位來討論看看如何做相關的再如何精進好謝謝"},{"start":7682.581,"end":7696.056,"text":"那我也請部長再關注一件事我首先先謝謝因為部長主導而且承諾也已經完成了這個所謂的機場的這個聯外交通的那個information那個旅客中心"},{"start":7697.518,"end":7716.585,"text":"能夠部分的解決國際旅客來到台中機場往市區往台中其他區域的一些接駁問題但是那還是局部我在今天的提案裡面有提到我們希望交通部趕快跟台中市政府再一次的來好好的討論溝通我們機場連外的大眾運輸系統"},{"start":7722.307,"end":7736.189,"text":"捷運局限還沒有成行之前那公車或者是shuttle bus可能是我們現在可以做的那是不是可以在等一下的提案裡面我相信部長一定會全力支持 局長也會支持吧是 這個會支持希望做好"},{"start":7737.971,"end":7763.822,"text":"那希望我們趕快來盤點 趕快做好 也要求地方政府一起來合作那航空站如果可以大幅的改善 我相信這個服務台中的鄉親 中部的鄉親會更多那接著除了機場之外 台中最重要的一個運輸交通的一個樞紐就是高鐵那我想部長也看過好幾次 你每天幾乎每個禮拜要搭高鐵嘛 對不對所以你也最了解周遭的這個"},{"start":7764.822,"end":7791.542,"text":"交通的問題 何局長請回沒關係謝謝你那我就請部長真的是我們好好的來想辦法跟地方合作來解決我在去年10月14號有提案成立這個台中高鐵周邊的交通專案小組那也成立了我謝謝我們楊局長跟台中市政府密切的做溝通那但是我現在要提醒的是什麼"},{"start":7792.242,"end":7818.029,"text":"我們雖然專案小組到目前為止去年10月成立到現在開會了三次那也提出了一些對周邊交通的建議但是呢我幫你再整理了一下我要再仔細的看了一下當然我們該補助給地方政府的我也全力支持跟同意但是呢以目前提出的這個改善規劃的建議裡面我們發現大部分都是"},{"start":7818.649,"end":7837.427,"text":"局限在導入的車流的一個疏解的一個規劃而在整體的一個導出的這個車流的規劃目前還沒有看到局長你的專業你應該知道我在講什麼整個高鐵的特區裡面這個周遭的交通目前"},{"start":7838.208,"end":7866.12,"text":"我們看到這個專案小組提到了不管是國道銜接高鐵特區或是74號線的閘道的拓寬或者是其他都是在作為車流要進入高鐵的一個交通的改善那但是如果就整體未來那個所謂的亞洲最大的shopping mall要在明年年底要完成如果我們要因應的話"},{"start":7867.501,"end":7895.392,"text":"我想周遭的整個交通如何的在短時間內可以導出分散車流這個是最重要的這也一定要思考進去的所以我希望未來在這個專案小組在一次的討論的時候我請交通部能夠基於我們的專業還有能夠跟地方政府提醒有些對於平面的連外道路的一個全盤的思考"},{"start":7897.373,"end":7916.967,"text":"跟解方也要能夠尋求如何解決那才能夠一次到位啦這個我想楊局長應該也討論過很多次了部長自己本身是台中人也曾經是在地的民意代表你更清楚我在說什麼第一個除了我們高速公路快速道路的解方之外"},{"start":7917.587,"end":7945.911,"text":"平面道路裡面只要涉及到我們鐵道局或是高鐵的土地我們一定沒有問題嘛一定願意提供嘛中央這邊一定全力配合一定全力配合嘛對不對是那所以呢我們希望未來台中市政府在專案小組裡面如果能夠更積極的提供這個相關的這個不管是平面道路的一個打通計畫或拓寬計畫當然我也希望未來交通部也要支持"},{"start":7947.071,"end":7967.439,"text":"也會支持吧 對不對所以不管是在公路系統還有快速道路的這個高速公路的這個系統或者是平面道路的打通跟拓寬未來需要中央的預算來支持所以也請部長一定要承諾支持如果是可以做的狀況底下交通部一定會全力支持"},{"start":7968.078,"end":7982.909,"text":"當然當然是要經過評估一定可以做的當然就要支持了好不好好再拜託部長這個很重要好不好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝何新淳委員現在我們處理臨時提案請議事人員宣讀一併宣讀"},{"start":7989.968,"end":8019.106,"text":"臨時提案一鑒於台鐵所屬車站停車場多委託民間業者經營然事務上旅船停車費用費率提高的爭議影響民眾通勤意願原要求交通部及鐵道局督導國營台鐵鐵路股份有限公司與委外業者簽訂停車場租賃契約時應明定費率上限及調整機制提案人委員廖先祥等"},{"start":8021.445,"end":8043.179,"text":"臨時提案二台中海線居民每日通勤需求相當迫切原此要求交通部於台鐵海線雙軌化建設完工之前針對台中大甲子彰化子海線路段增加台鐵班次增加班次以因應台中海線居民之交通需求提案人委員蔡其昌等"},{"start":8045.034,"end":8073.183,"text":"因此提案三交通部與台中市政府共同組成台中高鐵周邊交通專案小組但前項現有之討論多以車流進入台中烏日高鐵站周邊自規劃為主未建有規劃離開該區之車流疏解方案故請交通部建樹與台中市政府溝通納入其能階段性解決台中烏日高鐵站周邊交通"},{"start":8074.444,"end":8099.683,"text":"問題提案人委員何欣淳等議事提案四台中機場航線建徵搭乘旅客日艦增加相對服務設施需求意見增加原建起民航局競數與內政部移民署農業部房檢署等相關單位協調提升台中機場軟硬體服務與改善動性規劃提案人委員何欣淳等"},{"start":8100.663,"end":8130.312,"text":"民事提案五台中機場擁有國際及國內航線國內外旅客眾多然公共運輸仍有待加強處請交通部積極推動台灣號型台中機場快捷線規劃易應與台中市政府研議機場接駁公車班次與路線配套規劃以充分因應台中機場國內外旅客公共運輸接駁之需要提案人委員何新淳等"},{"start":8132.325,"end":8153.343,"text":"領事提案六要求交通部應針對高鐵延伸宜蘭相關路線行經之鄉市鎮舉辦公聽會收集民間意見及想法並做後續溝通與說明找尋共識之機會提案人委員林國成吳宗憲等宣布完畢好"},{"start":8156.42,"end":8177.964,"text":"各位來因為節省時間那我現在請教第一案第一案我們行政單位有沒有意見報召委我這邊是不是建議一下啦齁這個案子是廖委員提出來的齁那裡面大概跟鐵道局沒有關係齁所以"},{"start":8184.01,"end":8197.819,"text":"來 請說所以那個第三行後面交通部及鐵道局及鐵道局拿掉因為跟鐵道局沒有關係然後在第四行的最後一段就是與停車場這個主任企業前面加個言義兩個字"},{"start":8199.676,"end":8228.624,"text":"那接下來到倒數第二行鐵道局及鐵道局拿掉啦這個應該沒有關係然後督導國營台灣鐵路股份有限公司研議於我愛業者加個研議兩個字以上報告那這部分剛剛有跟那個廖委員報告好那個廖委員同意嗎好那第一案的話就是修正修正通過好不好來好接下來第二案"},{"start":8229.929,"end":8245.335,"text":"第二案 人民報告第二案因為我們的海線目前確實它的路線比較緊一點不過我想這個蔡委員所提到的部分我們想我們這邊是不是做個文字上的一個修正倒數第三行"},{"start":8246.535,"end":8274.43,"text":"鐵道局目前辦理中午規劃中那個招標目前他其實是在辦理規劃啦齁朱惠中這個招標拿掉然後後面倒數第二行台中的海線的這個路段啦其再增加幾個次其可再增加台鐵班次然後提出評估報告應應台中海線居民的交通需求好那個蔡副院長同意嗎"},{"start":8277.833,"end":8299.381,"text":"謝謝主席 基本上我不會反對啦但是我必須要說明一下啦就是說我想那個部長過去也在海線當議員所以他也很了解這個海線鄉親長期要解決這個南下北上或者往高鐵新路日站的班次的需求需要靠雙軌化"},{"start":8300.621,"end":8319.922,"text":"所以這件事情為什麼這麼多年來我們積極在推動海線能夠加速雙軌化那這個已經進入了程序所以謝謝交通部但是呢短期啊我們還是要想出解決的方法也就是說短期怎麼樣去增加南下或北上"},{"start":8320.703,"end":8345.095,"text":"的車次或者到這個新烏日站的車次我希望這個鐵路單位啊能夠趕快做一個報告怎麼樣再去調整可以增加班次我想這個是大家海線鄉親的等待跟需求那我等一下質詢的時候我也會來跟部長再討論一下好謝謝好謝謝我蔡副院長來那我們這個這個部分就是修正通過來接下來第三案"},{"start":8350.61,"end":8376.938,"text":"來第三案那個行政機關有沒有意見沒有意見沒有意見沒有意見遵照辦理遵照辦理好遵照辦理那我們就照案通過來接下來第十案行政機關這邊沒有意見照案辦理好照案辦理來那我們就照案通過來接下來第五案行政單位一樣我們會遵照辦理"},{"start":8377.406,"end":8404.293,"text":"好遵照辦理來那我們就照案通過接下來第六案那個主席好來那個4跟5跟機場都有關係啦那本席喔這個新存委員跟他我跟新存委員一起提案其實主要還是要說明一下這個4跟5啊因為這個班我們不斷的在要求增加這個航線啊航點"},{"start":8405.7,"end":8420.985,"text":"但是硬體的跟上必須要快速因為自從那一天機場現場出現混亂的時候我也跟那個張主任 航空站的張主任反應過那事實上他今天也正在 此刻他也正在協調相關動線的問題"},{"start":8423.286,"end":8450.131,"text":"那這個要可能不只交通部啦因為這裡面涵蓋檢疫我們對於編防的這個檢疫很重要那這個檢疫喔是這個問題的關鍵所以我希望啊部裡面那個部長能夠趕快召集啊這個防檢單位是不是就動線跟分流因為長期我們都知道這跟海線鐵路是一樣長期他需要新的Terminal新的這個"},{"start":8450.971,"end":8470.819,"text":"航廈的這個新建這個我們都清楚但因為這個時候中部地區出國經商旅遊的這個需求然後包括我們很多外籍的移工的需求所以中部地區的航線航點的需求恐怕沒辦法等到你Terminal蓋好"},{"start":8471.579,"end":8495.498,"text":"所以短期你怎麼去做分流恐怕這不是張主任一個人所能夠解決的更不是民航局所能夠解決的所以警部裡面應該要緊述就這個短期怎麼去把它做分流否則我們還在爭取新的航點啦台中還要飛日本飛韓國飛更多的地方那未來每一班都卡住了雖然啦卡住還是比去台北快啦"},{"start":8496.358,"end":8509.547,"text":"雖然但是畢竟他作為一個國際機場全部卡在那裡這個也不像話那再來他的時段通常是集中的也就是說他可能平常譬如說很早很晚的時候沒有什麼班機但"},{"start":8511.368,"end":8540.702,"text":"他會在某幾個小時當中密集的進跟出所以是不是要針對密集的時間點怎麼樣請相關單位支援如果人力不足請他在那個時間點支援那第二個怎麼樣去分流也就是來自於非疫區的地方跟疫區的地方就像桃園也是用這樣的概念那怎麼去分流所以我的意思要補充就是要把這個事情要跟大家講清楚為什麼跟新屬委員要提這些案子"},{"start":8541.122,"end":8553.099,"text":"其實都是要讓機場的效率能夠更加的去提升接駁車的問題你們要積極跟市府來溝通照理說這個是市府"},{"start":8553.976,"end":8573.323,"text":"要趕快去做的啦那已經講很多遍也拜託很多議員去講了也沒有什麼效果所以拜託交通部趕快出面去協調一下市政府到底市政府要不要開不開的話如果都沒有作為那中央我們可以怎麼樣去協助旅客做這個大眾運輸輸運的這個事情我做這樣補充"},{"start":8576.284,"end":8601.472,"text":"那個四案跟五案啦就是蔡副院長他們提案人啊所補充的就請行政單位也要把它列入這個紀錄列入這個參考好不好 這個我們列入參考並且我們會跟那個其他的部會我們發布會包含內政部包含農業部針對機場的這個通關的順序跟速度我們會來加強好來來接下來第六案第六案來行政單位"},{"start":8603.249,"end":8623.66,"text":"鐵道局報告一下 這個案子我們是建議因為倒數第二行提到就延伸一覽相關路線行經之相似證 舉辦公聽會因為公聽會的程序相對來說是法定上的這樣的一個要求對於環評的作業 我們目標的期程可能會產生一些影響"},{"start":8624.901,"end":8643.869,"text":"那是不是可以建議修正為宜蘭相關路線加強地方溝通說明讓我們在跟地方溝通上面有一定的談心跟做法我想剛剛有跟委員報告委員可能沒有辦法來接受那我還是要先做這樣的一個報告跟說明再請各位委員來指教跟討論 謝謝"},{"start":8647.191,"end":8672.39,"text":"那這個部分我首先先謝謝行政機關因為這個部分呢其實地方上面包括宜蘭的議會而且他們議會是不分藍綠的議員都希望是召開公聽會當然我知道公聽會跟一般討論會他在程序上面有非常大的不同那這部分我在剛剛在過來之前我有再跟宜蘭那邊確認一下他們還是地方上的想法還是希望說以公聽會的方式來做"},{"start":8672.99,"end":8686.297,"text":"好那這部分我想先表達所以這部分我還是希望說我們還是因為跟地方影響最大那我還是這邊是要求說以供聽會的方式來做好謝謝來那個楊局長來楊局長部長這個辦供聽會有損害什麼東西嗎應該沒有吧"},{"start":8693.577,"end":8710.37,"text":"報告委員這個辦公廳會有它法定的程序啦如果說要用公廳會的話其實交通建設是這樣大家都希望能夠趕快做那不過如果這個開下去的話以後可能每一條交通建設大家各鄉鎮市都會想要開公廳會"},{"start":8711.411,"end":8737.659,"text":"那如果這樣開下去我想台灣的交通的建設的速度可能大家要思考一下是不是有可能用說明會的方式謝部長跟部長報告一下因為想說因為高鐵這個東西它影響非常大包括農地的割裂使用那個灌溉水路的割裂還有高鐵沿線的進建等等的問題所以對於地方它影響很大所以我剛才跟各位報告說地方"},{"start":8738.519,"end":8760.238,"text":"他們的議會是不分藍綠要求要召開這個公聽會那當然我們從台北看宜蘭我會覺得說你們就趕快同意就好了但是在宜蘭當地的人他們的當地是有他們當地的疑慮我想說高鐵我們已經拖了那麼久那是不是還是要讓他們多表達一些意見因為目前是有開過一次"},{"start":8761.946,"end":8780.247,"text":"報告委員表達意見有很多種方式可不可以不要用公聽會我們用說明會或者是討論會的方式要讓他們表達是沒問題啦而且我們之後環評環評的過程當中他們也還可以表達意見這部分我跟部長報告一下所以我剛剛在來之前那我也是跟那邊抽糞的溝通"},{"start":8780.808,"end":8797.676,"text":"就是因為我知道 供聽會跟說明會 它兩個有一些不同嘛程序上面也有不同 那我也有跟他們提 但是他們還是堅持說希望要有供聽會那至少我在這邊 我把這個事情 我要一定要把地方的意見反映到中央來這是我的責任 謝謝部長"},{"start":8798.897,"end":8813.798,"text":"那個那個部長還有還有局長因為我在想是不是這樣好不好也不要去爭論這個啊公聽會當然是比較正式的啊依依法有機的東西我是不是建議這樣稍微修改一下當地召開公聽會"},{"start":8815.25,"end":8837.122,"text":"旁邊刮鬍或說明會這樣到時候再來協商用這種方式可能也比較彈性那如果大家溝通結果認為是公聽會你們也認為同意那刮鬍這樣就變成兩種都可以做這個案子應該是比較好處理謝謝召委可不可以不要刮鬍就公聽會或說明會"},{"start":8838.905,"end":8854.964,"text":"好 那個鍾縣委員你的認為呢這我就說我剛剛有說因為這件事情非同小說所以我剛在過來的時候我還在跟宜蘭那邊確認那這目前我們是我跟他們確認嘛他們就一定要求要開公聽會"},{"start":8855.845,"end":8883.295,"text":"那我剛好說了 其實宮廷會跟說明會其實它確實有一個差距而且它會讓整個程序會有delay這個我都能夠理解但是他們希望說開宮廷會那如果你們 我們現在先做我是做這樣的要求那如果你們自己有辦法在地方上面大家取得一個共識那當然大家以後有不一樣的想法我們當然我們可以大概再來討論但至少目前為止我跟他們溝通的結果就是大家都希望說要以宮廷會為唯一的選擇"},{"start":8885.516,"end":8907.346,"text":"對 我這邊我就是提出 因為這是我的提案 那我就做這樣的要求 謝謝我是不是可以來建議一下這個我們當然 這個重大建設高鐵要延伸到宜蘭我想這個是大家期待 也幾乎大家都會覺得這是一件好事因為是一個重大的交通建設"},{"start":8908.266,"end":8937.308,"text":"那當然過程當中必須要尊重在地鄉親的意見這也是未來在不管設計規劃跟甚至在動工之前包括環評也一定要的必要的這個程序就是召開公聽會但是呢以吳委員現在提的這個案子是我們交通委員會的臨時提案那表示你的態度立場也沒有錯但是呢最終我認為還是要依照行政程序法裡面"},{"start":8937.688,"end":8955.394,"text":"所有的行政程序該怎麼走就怎麼走是不是可以我建議就是在這個體驗裡面你的倒數第三行是要求那是不是可以說要求交通部研議或者是建議交通部"},{"start":8960.801,"end":8985.443,"text":"其實剛剛官員都有講 因為剛剛官員都有跟我講說這個利用可不可以改成其他的用語那我想說你們剛剛說 你剛剛就是那個局長跟我講的這些部分我在來之前我也都有跟地方去講是不是可以有這些不同的想法那我們這邊還是堅持我這邊的提案啦因為我很少對於提案堅持那我這邊還是堅持我的提案 好 謝謝"},{"start":8988.943,"end":8989.308,"text":"來來來 蔡副院長"},{"start":8993.431,"end":9021.959,"text":"其實這個大家沒有什麼意見不同啦大家都希望重大公共建設交通建設可以跟地方溝通啦但今天麻煩就是因為那個地方人士沒有來啦所以也不知道地方人士他的具體的想望就是說他開公聽會也好或者他希望加強溝通他到底期待的是宜蘭的高鐵快建好還是慢建好這個我們不大了解地方人士的想法"},{"start":9022.739,"end":9051.085,"text":"那由吳委員來代表地方人士表達這個意見就是其實我聽到的只有一個就是尊重要尊重地方的聲音啊那我個人是覺得主席剛剛那個提案反而可能會比較好為什麼因為裡面直接寫公聽會或說明會那表示說未來如果地方人士交通部下去了去議會譬如說剛剛吳委員提到宜蘭縣議會去宜蘭縣議會 宜蘭縣議會不分黨派大家都說要公聽會那"},{"start":9052.705,"end":9081.194,"text":"根據這個決議可以開那如果大家聽完交通部的說明解釋大家覺得說不用啦說明會就好了那這個根據這個臨時提案他也可以做所以我的意思是說也沒有忤逆這個吳委員的意思就是說也有地方嘛因為地方他覺得要開公聽會那交通部就依照這個臨時決議也是要開啊那如果地方覺得說不用啊說明會就好聽你們說話這樣也可以說明會也行也不一定說一定要堅持"},{"start":9082.034,"end":9103.53,"text":"公聽會所以回歸最後還是讓交通部跟地方人士溝通完之後到底看要公聽會還是要說明會所以我倒覺得主席的做法比較有空間跟彈性好 謝謝蔡委員那我大概了解一下但是如果要這樣那是不是至少先跟議會的那些藍綠議員先溝通"},{"start":9105.051,"end":9133.748,"text":"好嗎 就是我覺得可以 我就說我自己的提案其實我常都沒有很堅持但是因為他們的要求是公聽會但是我也可以接受因為我也跟他們我剛來之前我也跟他們溝通嘛那如果這樣是不是公聽會你就是要 你要就是說或那個說明會或是括號說明會但是你前面至少你要先跟議會那裡溝通完畢取得他們的共識我們如果有變更我是沒有意見好不好那個盧明哲委員 來"},{"start":9135.777,"end":9164.29,"text":"我這邊介意一下啦那是不是能夠加一段這個文字就可以了那這邊一樣是倒數第二行嘛路線行政之鄉鎮市舉辦公聽會或說明會然後逗點會議形式由交通部與地方政府議會討論定之然後議收集就接著嘛收集地方名好不好就是說看地方實際的需求這樣好不好來行政單位"},{"start":9166.126,"end":9170.589,"text":"這樣好不好就地方溝通以後好不好那個吳委員那個吳委員"},{"start":9175.1,"end":9202.268,"text":"那個中縣中縣委員這樣可以不可以就是溝通以後那地方認為說說明會啊他們也同意那兩個主席這沒有問題就是我我希望說你還是要重視地方人的意見就這樣了好那這樣好不好現在部長這裡沒有問題吧就加上剛才魯明哲委員的修正好不好好好那我們這個這個第六案就是修正通過好不好好"},{"start":9203.186,"end":9218.749,"text":"好 謝謝大家 來 接下來我們請陳樹業委員執行喔 還有 稍稍等稍等 好臨時提案處理完畢 如有委員對上述的提案補簽列入記錄 並刊登公報那現在請陳樹業委員來執行"},{"start":9235.785,"end":9239.433,"text":"謝謝主席 請主席邀請部長還有吳代理董事長陳部長還有我們吳代理董事長"},{"start":9251.687,"end":9280.116,"text":"委員好部長早因為今天委會安排的議題就是有關鐵路運營安全事件的檢討所以本席還是針對有關台鐵的營運安全再跟部長還有我們的吳代理董事長來進行討論雖然這都已經老生常談了可是我覺得說真的好像談到我不曉得說是不是都麻痺了我覺得這個真的是一個很嚴重的問題"},{"start":9280.956,"end":9308.701,"text":"因為我們看到從去年2024年12月19號這個潮州基地發生了這個就是新型的自強號在檢修的時候撞上指衝擋一直到今年就是就這個月4月20號還發生了這個就是進行連掛作業的時候為停車撞上新自強號這樣子短短不到5個月的時間就發生了七件的這個吊車事故"},{"start":9309.241,"end":9330.908,"text":"而且這個吊車事故都是人為因素嘛都是人為的一個因素那我們再來看一下就是一樣從今年1月5號就是這個司機員錯認位置所以導致這個車子最後一車沒有進月台一直到也是這個月份4月24號這樣子四個月內"},{"start":9334.269,"end":9350.814,"text":"就發生了七件的停車不當的事件那這幾件還有過站不停的三件所以這樣子的停車不當的事件也是人為的因素所造成的所以我覺得這狀況部長你覺得嚴不嚴重"},{"start":9353.414,"end":9374.326,"text":"報告委員,就數據上來看我認為是嚴重的,而且一般的民眾也覺得會有不安的感覺,所以這個部分我們要趕快來改善,並且要趕快來做改革的行為。所以我覺得說這樣子的一個事故的頻繁,我覺得真的就好像是不是都讓台鐵的人都覺得見怪不怪了,好像都麻痺了。"},{"start":9375.233,"end":9400.261,"text":"包委員這就是我們擔心的就是說我們的員工我們的同仁有沒有照SOP在進行的這件事我們接下來會強烈的要求並且對於沒有照SOP來做工作的執行的時候我們會做比較嚴厲的懲處這是一方面那二方面整體的改革方案我也已經拜託台鐵公司在做準備包含耗製的部分的安全要怎麼樣加強"},{"start":9401.061,"end":9415.731,"text":"包含我們針對駕駛員的這個紀律的約束我們該怎麼做加強這個部分我們目前整包都在討論那我們希望趕快做這個改革的這個期程是好因為我們回想就是在台鐵"},{"start":9416.992,"end":9440.865,"text":"可以在最近幾年就是去年這樣子前年就是可以這樣加速的一個公司化也是因為台鐵發生了這個重大的一個事故之後在社會的一個期待跟壓力之下所以才加速了這個公司化那當初在公司化的時候台鐵自己喊的口號也是台鐵改革從安全開始"},{"start":9442.086,"end":9460.892,"text":"我們也是希望就是說我們加速這個台鐵公司化的期待也是希望台鐵在這個安全的一個部分能夠強化然後能夠增加民眾的一個信心可是這樣子超過一年的時間我們覺得說真的喪失信心了"},{"start":9461.912,"end":9481.883,"text":"所以到底要怎樣來落實這個改革剛剛部長講的我是覺得說我應該還要再去思考到底是什麼原因造成我們的司機也好或者是調度員也好人偽事故的疏失"},{"start":9482.563,"end":9496.711,"text":"因為我覺得說懲處也不是唯一的一個辦法要去了解什麼原因造成他們有這樣子發生這樣一個疏失是壓力過大還是這個勞力不均等等造成的這個"},{"start":9498.692,"end":9524.037,"text":"一個結果我覺得應該從源頭去找出來原因之後去做一個調整不然的話如果說一味的說要加強這個懲處我覺得這可能又造成他們更大的壓力懲處是最後啦對前面其實該加強的是什麼是我們的員工的教育訓練對做事情要照SOP因為我們目前就每一個案件看起來很多都是因為員工並沒有照該規定的SOP下去做"},{"start":9524.617,"end":9548.115,"text":"那所以這個部分我們要要求他們必須要照SOP下去做懲處是最後如果你真的沒有照SOP我只好懲處你那前面除了SOP的這個教育訓練之外我們也會加強就是說在駕駛員的訓練之外就是說針對駕駛員因為運安會其實在五六年前也有要求過我們希望在駕駛室裡面有影音的安全輔助系統"},{"start":9549.115,"end":9576.193,"text":"那這個部分我們也在今年度一定會來推進這個進程一定要做到運安會對我們的要求這個部分我們一定要做到所以整體的改革的方案目前台鐵正在研擬不只是駕駛室也不只是教育訓練或者是說SOP的執行跟落實那另外針對硬體的部分的改革我們也目前正在進行當中跟委員報告對 是 我也有看到新聞報導就是有關月台"},{"start":9576.693,"end":9605.407,"text":"安全門的加強也都在做剛剛部長講到說SOP要落實就是說目前我們有關這個安全營運的各個面向的安全的SOP都有確實有訂好了嗎訂好這樣子的SOP都有報告委員其實SOP一直都有現在的問題是在於說我們的同仁沒有依照SOP的規定下去做沒有按照規定去做那有沒有去了解為什麼沒有按照規定去做"},{"start":9606.497,"end":9624.682,"text":"這個是不是要去要先去找出原因啦不然如果說我們高層我們營運的那個層級定了SOP然後結果基層做不到是做不到還是不會做要去了解一個原因是我跟委員"},{"start":9625.834,"end":9655.409,"text":"我跟委員報告齁 剛提到的SOP真的都是有確實有 我以4月20號這個對 4月20號這個案件來講因為會大概現在也進入要調查了齁那我們初步其實我們內部有先了解過齁4月20號那個他本來應該要 他是要連結他應該要一度停車但是他沒有依照SOP一度停車我們有訪問他的 去了解訪問他的那到底怎麼回事那他給我們答案說 他就恍神了"},{"start":9655.869,"end":9680.063,"text":"恍神那是因為睡眠不足還是是壓力太大倒不是講對他就講說啊大概因為按推的大概就講說是家裡的一些因素造成他的一些恍神後面我們還是會配合應安會可以相加然後才去確認那剛剛部長提到的SOP我們是跟他講就是在這裡"},{"start":9681.044,"end":9707.453,"text":"你如果有問題應該要提出來如果跟你講你還沒有這樣做的話那如果再出事我們真的就是一定要嚴懲這我覺得是最後手段你拿出來官方就變成拉五桿了啦對當然就是陳屬是最後手段那本席要強調就是說要去了解原因從源頭去解決啦那當然就是有關員工的心理輔導或者是家庭的一些因素可能也要多加關心"},{"start":9708.113,"end":9726.049,"text":"才會避免一些這樣子的狀況發生另外當然就是說我們公司化之後也要靠多元的一個經營來希望也能夠轉虧為盈我們看到目前我們台鐵推出的觀光列車"},{"start":9727.61,"end":9752.529,"text":"是頗受好評的那收益應該不錯吳代理董事長您的瞭解這幾個都很搶手確實都很搶手那本席在這邊是不是可以建議我們台鐵規劃一下就是每年就是春天就是三月份左右我們二水站這個鐵軌沿線的花旗幕盛開的時候"},{"start":9753.349,"end":9779.802,"text":"這個景色可以媲美這個日本的這個景色非常的漂亮然後也吸引了很多的遊客所以是不是可以明年規劃讓我們的這個山南號可以行駛這個就是經過這個停靠二水火車站跟我們報告剛提到這些觀光列車有些它有行駛區域性的關係環島之星大概二水這邊沒有問題"},{"start":9781.303,"end":9800.514,"text":"那以剛剛那個委員所提到的三藍號的部分目前我們現在維二的廠商我據了解他們已經先前排到今年的十月了今年的十月都已經排定了所以這個部分我想我們再來跟他協商看看看是不是可以把這部分把它放進來這個我們待會再跟這個廠商再協調"},{"start":9802.806,"end":9825.181,"text":"對 我想應該還有 還可以去因為還有時間嘛 排到十月而已明年 這因為花季是明年三月啦我們來努力 我們來跟他們協調好 因為我們也希望就是說 結合這樣子的一個亮點然後推銷我們在地的觀光啦因為這個也是要互相結合的是是是好 那謝謝部長跟謝謝吳代理謝謝委員"},{"start":9827.082,"end":9838.282,"text":"好 謝謝陳樹葉委員特別報告廖先祥委員執行完畢休息十分鐘那現在請廖先祥委員執行"},{"start":9847.864,"end":9857.705,"text":"好 謝謝主席喔 麻煩邀請我們陳部長好 交通部陳部長我們這個吳次長 代理董事長然後我們運營會林主委吳代董事長 還有林主委"},{"start":9869.891,"end":9883.459,"text":"上次運安會的主委來的時候大概有提到一些這個運安報告的缺失的檢討然後那包括這個無論是這個一年就是所有列管案件最多的是我們的"},{"start":9885,"end":9901.061,"text":"這個港務局嘛港務相關的那另外一部分三年以上的最多的也是我們的台鐵公司就是列管的缺失的案件那都是在部長的麾下那既然有這麼多的改善的缺失缺失要改善那都在部長這邊"},{"start":9902.222,"end":9931.104,"text":"沒有辦法改善就是說可能包括台鐵的三年內有五件嘛超過三年 列管超過三年的那這部分只有兩個可能嘛第一個就是我們慾安會提出的報告這個業務機關自愛難行那第二個那就是業務機關面對慾安會的一個檢討報告他們執行不力啦那部長大概這個針對我們先講針對台鐵的啦超過三年的部分有五件你們實際上遇到的困難大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":9932.709,"end":9952.254,"text":"報告委員是運安會的問題還是執行業務的部分運安會的要求我目前為止並沒有聽到部內所屬機關說有所以運安會的檢討都是合理的目前的檢討的狀況其實我知道每個案子都在進行當中有一些確實還沒有完成那沒有完成有個別的原因每個案子不一樣每個案子不一樣所以有五件啦因為有一些我看"},{"start":9952.954,"end":9977.112,"text":"有五件目前還在列管當中那可能兩件跟第三代CDC的採購有關那有的跟新車來組織的調整有關或者是耗資系統的檢測等等那沒關係我們今天就具體的針對這五項已經列管超過三年的缺失部長在這邊能不能具體的承諾這五項缺失可以在多久的時間內完成改善台鐵這邊有沒有辦法針對這個問題"},{"start":9981.587,"end":10004.165,"text":"剛提到應安會的建議其實從109到113年他總共大概有建議的110個分項台鐵的部分其實已經完成了99個分項你說還剩下11個分項那11個分項我們後面大概目前這樣規劃剛提到應安會的部分他的要求是這樣你如果說有涉及到所謂硬體的部分你硬體必須"},{"start":10005.511,"end":10032.948,"text":"這個發包以後你才可以解除那如果是軟體部分你必須要完成之後然後看到成效覺得還不錯他才會他才會解除裂管所以他們的他們的裂管其實是非常的嚴謹那剛剛提到包括CDC這些的問題我想我們剩下11個分項我們會在今年我們會再完成4個分項今年完成4個分項那明年可以再分成再兩個分項把它完成"},{"start":10033.345,"end":10050.081,"text":"那後面當然CTC的部分我們這個部分應該會在今年我們就來發包CTC今年就能夠啊第三代CTC今年就完成發包所以你剛剛 再重複一遍總共11個分項嘛那有5個分項是列管超過3年嘛對不對那今年完成"},{"start":10051.004,"end":10072.284,"text":"今年完成四項那115我們會完成兩項那還有剩下的五項是哪部分的問題會導致我們可能還需要更多的時間來調整就剛剛講了有些是我們整個制度上的問題那些可能要稍微晚一點我想這個設計的部分我們會盡早的把它完成我們現在這個部分大概都有列管來做啦"},{"start":10073.104,"end":10092.146,"text":"就像剛剛講的那個影音設備部分其實剛剛部長也特別講了我們是一定要往前走因為像我們預案會剛剛那個市長也有說就是提出來的並不是說硬體採購完成了才叫做解列嘛而是說發包了之後這個他們知道你們已經在做了之後就他們就也沒有說一定要看到結束嘛對不對那"},{"start":10092.987,"end":10103.794,"text":"那針對這個市長剛才說的這個一年內四項嘛明年兩項那部長你能不能針對11項你的目標你的目標11項要在幾年內讓運安會完成解列"},{"start":10108.154,"end":10127.472,"text":"報告委員 我們希望在116年以前全部都可以完成好 116年底116年116年底之前 運安會的這11項的列管的缺失我們都可以再完成解除列管對 沒錯好 那謝謝好 那另外 這個部長 跟您也算是這個"},{"start":10129.892,"end":10152.383,"text":"那個台鐵可能台鐵公司留下來那我們高鐵也麻煩一下就是我最近我最近這個有在大家都有在看我們的影集那Netflix最近有一個影集叫做新幹線驚爆倒數我不知道部長有沒有看過我前兩天才看你有看嗎有看好那我們可以聊一下那包括柯南這柯南的電影之前有一個這個什麼這個列車炸彈的一些相關的議題其實大家都說現實生活有時候總是比電影來的來的"},{"start":10159.667,"end":10174.326,"text":"來的這個更為讓人家覺得這個就是更為誇張啦就是電影情節現實生活常常會比電影情節更為誇張那你也知道這個可能這兩部電影裡面的情節就是說在列車上面裝炸彈"},{"start":10176.188,"end":10192.158,"text":"要求列車要在100公里以上的速度才不會爆炸假設我們今天交通部或是鐵道公司或是高鐵也接收到類似的警告說我們從南港站發車的列車到左營"},{"start":10195.285,"end":10207.26,"text":"他的速度不能夠低於 時速100公里那否則他會被爆炸 那當然他也提出一些儲金的要求那我們這個交通部或是鐵道公司 高鐵公司會做怎樣的一個相對應"},{"start":10208.753,"end":10231.013,"text":"報告委員 這個算是關鍵基礎設施啦所以他的安全性的問題其實也牽涉到整個國安系統 大家也都很關心那針對 如果是有類似啦 電影情節裡面第一個原則性的問題 會不會跟恐怖份子做交涉我們國家的制度會跟恐怖份子做交涉嗎"},{"start":10232.829,"end":10257.624,"text":"這個要由國安單位去做判斷我們有一個國家安全辦公室當發生這樣的事情我們會馬上通報國家安全辦公室由他們來做判斷這不是由交通部這邊能夠做判斷所以你們不會決定說要不要交涉那假設要營救就是不交涉的情況下那接下來就是營救我們會怎樣的來不只我們交通部會怎樣跨機關的來做一些經濟處置"},{"start":10260.197,"end":10272.15,"text":"緊急處置這個我們有演練過嗎我們的台鐵相關的一些演練也都有針對恐怖攻擊來做一個演練那國安辦公室也會來參與"},{"start":10273.925,"end":10290.221,"text":"那我們有辦法講具體一點啦具體一點對我們有這樣的一個劇本劇本那像在國家安全辦公室也會指導我們就是怎麼樣來針對如果有一些恐怖事件發生的時候我們來做一個演練他們有一個演練的劇本"},{"start":10290.982,"end":10305.855,"text":"那這個部分其實您有看過影片所以大概您也會好奇說他大概劇本怎麼樣然後怎麼因應我在想這個是不是會後有我們再把資料給我們這個鐵案演習的相關劇本其實甚至因為他已經被拍成電影了那有時候大家都知道會有一個模仿效應"},{"start":10307.076,"end":10322.191,"text":"這種東西也是有可能發生包括我們2021年的時候我們也曾經發生過就是有這個通報在台鐵上面裝炸彈那當然最後發現是虛驚異常那假設它是真的呢那電影已經演了這麼多那這件事情聽起來也不是說"},{"start":10323.243,"end":10345.425,"text":"做不到的事情聽起來不是做不到的事情那我希望說交通部門也能夠做一些最基本的比如說我剛剛講連看電影的人都會知道說我們要先做的就是維持這個幹線上面的一個疏通嘛你們必須要緊急調度把所有的其他所有的班次都暫停嘛把所有的列車排除在我們的這個幹線上面然後後續才能做一些營救的工作嘛"},{"start":10348.146,"end":10372.546,"text":"是沒有錯其實除了台鐵高鐵其實也都有一些因應的模式所以跟委員報告其實我們這個跟國安單位都有一個很好的一個聯繫因為這個時候第一個我們就是會通報這個國安系統那國安系統的話整下來的話我們在我們這邊的話鐵路警察是第一線跟我們一起在合作的所以我們平常也有去針對這些做一些這種資訊的這種聯繫然後怎麼樣應盡的話其實是我們也有"},{"start":10377.109,"end":10381.472,"text":"類似的一些砂盤的推演來做但不過像剛才這種情況的話我們也可以繼續的來跟這個國安單位來跟他研究然後我們怎麼來做那實務上在電影裡面出現的他可能有一些營救方式比如說把這個車廂去把它拆解然後再用其他的車廂追上這台列車去把旅客輸運這樣實務上我們做不做得到"},{"start":10403.661,"end":10427.031,"text":"電影裡面的情節跟實務上我們列車這是不太可能啦不太可能但是我們如果是知道說它是放在哪一個車廂的話那我們當然會把這個前後三個車廂的客人全部都往外挪往其他的車廂挪移這樣所以電影新幹線的情節在實務上比較屬於電影裡面的想像"},{"start":10428.097,"end":10451.874,"text":"好 那沒關係 那後續啦 部長我們就是針對這樣子類似一個恐怖攻擊的一個議題那如果說後續要怎麼來營救我們的旅客好不好 希望能夠做一個檢討跟預演 演練我不是說實際上演練 而是說我們必須要在行政上面去做一些至少要沙盤推演沙盤推演 然後再提供一些資料給我們 以上 好不好 謝謝部長謝謝委員好 謝謝廖先祥委員現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":10479.775,"end":10480.255,"text":"謝謝觀看,下次見!"},{"start":10494.085,"end":10498.131,"text":"多點動作"},{"start":10505.299,"end":10528.114,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10530.503,"end":10554.667,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10577.161,"end":10581.364,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10587.906,"end":10589.047,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":10602.09,"end":10617.302,"text":"今天早上到現在"},{"start":10619.524,"end":10626.548,"text":"謝謝大家收看,下次見"},{"start":10641.476,"end":10666.869,"text":"我們未來應該也會有更多更多的經濟跟建築我們希望早期的經濟上適合建築學會去回回歸讓教育中的教育者可以讓教育者可以讓教育者可以讓"},{"start":10674.616,"end":10680.026,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10682.106,"end":10694.01,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10705.094,"end":10722.005,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":10724.582,"end":10750.414,"text":"好,我們來看看這間店的服務吧這間店的服務在幾天之間是有興奮劇的因為我們都在家裡我們都在家裡我們都在家裡"},{"start":10754.599,"end":10756.869,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":11060.868,"end":11089.506,"text":"好 請各位就座好 我們繼續開會現在請林進憲委員執行好 感謝主席本席邀請我們交通部陳部長好 交通部陳部長民航局何局長民航局何局長"},{"start":11098.631,"end":11115.588,"text":"我們民航局其實在2021年行政院有核定一個他們做的計畫叫做2040年我國民用機場整體規劃成果何局長知道吧那時候你還沒有當局長那你知道這個計畫"},{"start":11117.301,"end":11146.164,"text":"那在這個2040年我國民用機場整體規劃裡面台南機場的定位是所謂核心機場那核心機場裡面做什麼呢他說第一個是國內航線的核心機場之一第二個台南機場要作為南部區域的國際航線的輔助機場但是現在台南機場沒有半條"},{"start":11147.968,"end":11170.338,"text":"國際航線啊 連一條都沒有啦那你要知道 他所謂的南部國際航線的輔助機場他未來就是預期啦 他運量 他那運輸能量啊 明朗局估算啦就是台南機場必須和高雄機場共同達成一年的容量要1500人次以上"},{"start":11171.516,"end":11178.083,"text":"其實你整個台中喔 台中比中部還要更多如果台南是要輔助高雄小港國際機場那台南現在連一條航線都沒有一條國際航線都沒有這可以嗎同時我們也知道"},{"start":11193.544,"end":11208.126,"text":"高雄的男子科技園區台積電還有台南南科現在國家最重要的半導體高科技的園區都在南部其實高雄那個地方也北高雄其實也比較靠近台南機場"},{"start":11209.586,"end":11222.338,"text":"甚至於台南未來的沙崙科學園區那離台南機場也很近那車程大概十分到十五分鐘所以是不是請我們交通部這裡能夠協助輔導來讓台南的機場可以作為國際航線"},{"start":11229.905,"end":11243.6,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們也希望說能夠有更多的航班能夠飛國際的部分在台南機場來起降那這個部分我昨天剛好跟那個觀光業者大家在座談會的時候其實台南的業者有跟我表示說"},{"start":11244.321,"end":11271.739,"text":"虎航已經有跟他們在商量說未來在台南有沒有可能開國際航線那當然這個部分除了航空公司要配合之外也就是說我們的運量也要有所以觀光業者也應該大家一起配合那目前他們已經有在接洽了我們希望能夠促成這件事大概什麼時候可以促成這個細部的部分我可能還要再詢問一下他們現在已經有開始在討論這件事虎航的高董知道嗎董事長大概什麼時候可以促成"},{"start":11274.895,"end":11283.651,"text":"我想我們還是會做一些那個 今年底好不好 今年底讓台南機場可以有"},{"start":11285.46,"end":11314.22,"text":"國際的固定航班可以嗎我們來努力看是由那個虎航或者是那個我們來擔任我們來努力看看我們從包機會先開始啦我們去年已經有20家的國際包機那今年也會有一些國際包機我們包機會先開始那我們希望能夠推到有固定的航班現在幾乎沒有了我給你看旅客書好了來部長台南在2023年還有固定航線的時候那時候飛越南"},{"start":11315.52,"end":11341.559,"text":"那一年還有三萬一千位旅客啦去年2024年就是保證你說的包機啦三百三十三個那回去包一台兩台而已啊跟定期航班是有差別的嘛另外啊你台南機場啊我們民航局也把它發包為有免稅商店和商店街你知道嗎免稅是不懂你知道這件事嗎我知道"},{"start":11342.674,"end":11369.465,"text":"我不知道你發包這個有什麼意思你連一個國際航線也沒有你發包來招商去做國際航線的美穗店還開闢商店街沒有旅客啊確實要先有需求那這些廠商為什麼會來他認為說你美浪局有答應要去徵求國際航線嘛那現在沒有這些廠商不是很無辜嗎那這個部分也希望"},{"start":11370.458,"end":11389.081,"text":"你都一定要去注意一下啦那對這個廠商你是不是應該要給予前面黃線以前的話那他們怎麼沒有客人根本沒辦法營運啊那租金要不要付給你那個檢免的部分應該是已經在討論了可以輔導檢免嘛對對對這個要檢免他們應該也算是無辜的受害者啦"},{"start":11390.666,"end":11415.838,"text":"那其實在國際航線的檢疫啦還有通關啦進出其實這個都是中央的業務啦那中央其實應該要跟市政府再來做一個密切的聯繫啦剛剛部長也講對了啦你航線拉了以外你要維持下去還是必須要有旅客嘛那這個地方就必須要我們共同來經營來行銷啦我認為以台南的觀光資源應該是非常有條件啦"},{"start":11416.718,"end":11432.546,"text":"我們地方的觀光業者我想他們大家也期待好不好但是重點我們是不是請交通部這裡先來協助我們希望在今年我個人對我們交通部的一個期待"},{"start":11433.686,"end":11460.965,"text":"那我也要求 希望可以啦你們努力 讓年底以前啦 今年底以前台南可以先開闢啊再開闢國際航線好不好讓台南機場成為一個真的南部的國際航線輔助機場嘛讓台民武起死啦好 那局長請回喔 高董喔請問說 我現在在那提的是鐵路啦我們鐵道局在嗎鐵道局在"},{"start":11462.949,"end":11486.171,"text":"楊局長謝謝主席我請局長上次很感謝部長跟我們鐵道局有帶讓在發展台南的那個山南號上次是明日號就明日號來停我們台南"},{"start":11487.172,"end":11514.8,"text":"這邊很感謝但我希望啊西部線的觀光列車我請部長看一下山南澳就是短程啦山南澳就是專做它兩個兩個城鎮之間的一個短程你看那西部海岸線全部嶺了台中宜蘭就沒有了你看但是東部有嘛南港宜蘭花蓮池上邦遙到台東部長看得出來吧是"},{"start":11516.024,"end":11522.389,"text":"你看這裡全部沒有啦全部沒有啦那我現在啊希望我們交通部能夠協助啦你要開發這一段啦"},{"start":11534.331,"end":11546.977,"text":"開發這一段讓山南號專門幾乎是量身訂做一個台南的路段航線這個做得起來我知道你們為什麼不做你們認為說因為這段沒有海景可以看"},{"start":11548.123,"end":11571.238,"text":"是不是 因為這麼大不可以海峰是看海景的 山嵐不用看海景 可以看山也可以第一個 你要看海景到處有啦但這種特殊景觀 別的地方沒有啦 我跟你介紹啦去年英國的一個雜誌 叫Time OutTime Out大概是休息雜誌 它評估"},{"start":11574.063,"end":11596.928,"text":"台南是台灣唯一入榜的就世界 亞洲 八大最佳旅遊城市台南是台灣唯一入列的台南還名列第四名 甚至超過日本的大阪那觀光署 我們交通部自己觀光署的計算今年1月份"},{"start":11600.587,"end":11624.637,"text":"旅遊仁慈 全國前兩名的旅遊景點都是台南第一個是鹿兒門聖母廟第二個就是國華友愛商圈所以很多人到台南玩所以如果你這個時候其實鐵路旅遊可以來開發而且這種套裝行程我幫你設計好了你知道台南是一個南北很狹長的"},{"start":11625.737,"end":11652.466,"text":"的一個城市啦你可以做一個西北去體驗農遊西北是比較農村的地方啦你就在澳北開始啦後面那八角樓啦 鹽水舞廟啦鹽水橋啊新營鐵道文化區啦 新營太子宮這個是賴總統多次都會去上香的地方喔那個地方也是地方的一個非常出名的一個廟宇還有台灣的南蛙產業園區也是在後壁啦"},{"start":11653.286,"end":11679.197,"text":"那你台南在台南 台南再下來中部那就是大麻豆地區啦我們麻豆台天府啦 總爺藝文中心啦麻豆就這都放在那裡啦就古早的港口文化園區啦 蕭榮文化園區啦喔 西港慶安宮啦 嘉麗金洞殿那個都是地方很出名的也都是很多外來觀光客的啦也就是說你讓觀光客到台南"},{"start":11680.239,"end":11707.159,"text":"除了他們自己開車坐高鐵以外你如果另外一個開闢就坐鐵路來他這種旅行就是鐵路靠站以後然後我們有專車送他們到這些景點去旅行嘛那市區啦就是走獨的歷史啦是不曉得應該有到台南來過啦有當然安平古堡啦 義仔京城恰恰老的大天后宮啦 4.5廟還有那個台南法院那個司法博物館啦是"},{"start":11707.919,"end":11733.808,"text":"那台南也更有全國出名的點心嘛 對不對我最近也介紹一些 我上一本有補充來參考一下是啊 好吃的 你也要吃台南點心嗎這個更是觀光客到台南一定會來享受的我相信台南有這樣的觀光資源才會被世界的旅遊雜誌評選為亞洲八大旅遊城市的第四名而且是台灣唯一入榜"},{"start":11734.528,"end":11759.016,"text":"那我們有這樣的台南觀光旅遊資源那你開闢這個鐵道觀光旅遊你給台南挑過報告委員這個大家都在爭取那我覺得南台灣確實應該要納入所以我們現在應該台鐵已經在做這個南台灣的這個計畫南台灣的計畫已經在做我們希望年底看有沒有機會或者是明年初啦有機會的話我們南台灣很高興聽到這種好消息啦年底以前趕快開闢一條我要保證判決啦"},{"start":11763.227,"end":11783.192,"text":"我不知道 你要委託看外因為這是委外經營嘛是委外經營嘛這個一定賺錢的啦是 沒錯另外我也鼓勵你們喔我剛提到台南有很多好吃的點心嘛台南是全國最重要最大的龍魚水產很多台南在地的產物現在你可以做一個結合台南在地食材開發一個台南便當啦"},{"start":11783.892,"end":11790.982,"text":"對 他們車上會提供餐點這個餐點我們就找在地的食材找在地的食材來做好 謝謝部長好 謝謝林俊憲委員現在請習護魁委員執行"},{"start":11807.413,"end":11810.337,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請陳部長台鐵五代理董事長 高鐵鄭董事長鄭董事長 高鐵鄭董事長"},{"start":11833.511,"end":11856.289,"text":"兩位董事長早部長我想今天討論航空跟鐵路的安全但是我先就一個觀光的問題先請教陸委會公布去年到現在有82個國人負重失聯我們有找過相關的情資嗎?報告委員陸委會的資料也都有給我們所以這82位我們也都了解"},{"start":11857.984,"end":11886.689,"text":"那我因為目前我們登錄的一個系統裡面附中登錄的比例不到5%那我們交通部怎麼樣掌握這樣一個登錄的一個狀況報告委員我們還是呼籲國人如果要去中國旅遊或者是經商最好都先來登錄這個陸委會的這個網站上面的登錄原因是這樣子如果有先登錄出了事政府才會知道才知道說該怎麼協助包含協助家屬或協助當事人"},{"start":11887.369,"end":11905.319,"text":"那這個部分目前陸委會也有召集旅遊相關的業者拜託旅遊相關的業者不管是針對團客或者是自由行的旅客都能夠去協助來做宣導讓民眾願意來登錄因為這個登錄的這個機制最近開始在宣導我們希望一段時間就可以看出成效"},{"start":11906.599,"end":11926.925,"text":"部長其實我有很多朋友他們跟我提到說要去大陸旅遊我都覺得說要注意啦有時候被莫須有的罪名跟你扣住你就回不來了啦當然我站在我們這個交通部的立場為了怎麼樣針對國人跟旅行團一個強制的一個登陸的一個做政策我相信應該要搭配陸委會我們應該有一些的"},{"start":11927.425,"end":11946.643,"text":"因應對策啦是沒錯柏林這個贊成嗎有 這個我們跟陸委會都會密切來配合這關係到國人的旅遊安全我們非常重視那我們也是希望我們的相關的一些外交管道應該趕快去透過海基會協調趕快讓這個受困的國人能夠趕快回台灣啦是所以我們也是要確保他們的人身安全是"},{"start":11947.657,"end":11971.102,"text":"那部長還有董事長我想我們最近有一個新的這個交通的議題就是西班牙跟葡萄牙在4月28號中午過後陷入大規模的一個停電那原因就是因為西班牙因為極端氣候造成一個高壓陷入的異常震動造成這個交通大亂許多的乘客受困在這個大眾運輸的工具裡面"},{"start":11972.862,"end":11992.197,"text":"那我想針對台鐵跟高鐵在我們是不是面臨這樣一個狀況之後有沒有什麼一個備援的一個機制甚至因應的作為能不能提出一個說明是這個部分我們是不是請台鐵好不好吳董事長跟委員報告齁剛提到的這個葡萄牙跟西班牙大端電的部分我想我們台鐵齁"},{"start":11994.691,"end":12010.46,"text":"也會所謂的我們的不斷電系統那這個我們有備用的發電機大概目前可以有四個小時的時間可以來用那當然如果說還繼續在停電的時候有需要我們剛剛講再加油再注油一樣可以再繼續再持續"},{"start":12011.48,"end":12023.832,"text":"這個我想沒有問題但在路線上我們大概也有幾個逃生的一個地方我們現在是沿線都把它標示出來哪個地方有逃生的部分可以路線都要怎麼連通這個部分都有做"},{"start":12025.289,"end":12047.228,"text":"那這個有沒有需要列入我們比如說一個擴大一個研習的一個項目因為有可能我們高層知道但是我們基層的員工同仁不清楚啊我們現在大概每一年大概都會辦理所謂的體驗的研習體驗的研習我想我們未來把這個納入是我們的情境來做一下研習讓整個基層同仁了解這個時候發生的時候應該怎麼辦"},{"start":12049.506,"end":12058.971,"text":"這個我想我們也要把它列為一個很重要的一個應變的一個機制因為這個隨著現在這個極端氣候隨時那種發現什麼狀況我們都不知道所以我們應該隨時要做好營運準備好那我想針對這個台鐵落軌的事件頻傳"},{"start":12067.115,"end":12089.742,"text":"包含我們在屏東也有長輩在鳳山車站也跌下去有骨折所以我想這個安全性也必須真的要重新來檢視那我知道台鐵目前在高雄車站有準備偵測的一個纜繩式的一個月台示範就我們現在應該是在圖面的一個左手邊這個規劃嘛是保齡院你看這個有沒有美觀"},{"start":12091.975,"end":12106.095,"text":"報告委員美觀的問題當然他沒有辦法做到像高鐵那麼美觀因為他的車型太多他的這個門開的地方也都不一樣那高鐵是同一個車型開門的地方是固定的所以做法一定是不一樣的"},{"start":12106.857,"end":12132.314,"text":"但是因為我們現在也有很多鄉親在質疑我們花了這個將近一億五千萬規劃的一個部分那到底可以做多少的月台門那這個所謂的效益怎麼去做評估報告委員第一座它一定會比較貴因為我們現在是試辦所以很多的我們必須測試的這些機具都有裝設上去但是而且它沒有量產所以價格會比較高"},{"start":12133.075,"end":12150.097,"text":"但是如果你要複製到其他地方去做的時候我們有一些測試的機具就測試完之後確定要就留下來不需要的我們就會把它取消掉所以我們價格會降低而且我們的機房有一個機房不是只有給一個月台的一側目前是"},{"start":12150.698,"end":12172.927,"text":"一個機房只給一側嘛那未來可能一個機房是可以給好幾個月台那個整體的成本都會下降那這一組因為是在測試的過程所以價格會比較高那未來我們當然價格會降低就會思考說有沒有要裝設更多的車站那目前有在評估啦比較擁擠的月台或者是有安全疑慮的月台我們會優先來考量"},{"start":12174.541,"end":12196.417,"text":"我想部長也常常坐火車到我們相關的一些縣市去看我提供右手邊這是我們德國車站我想我們在很多 包含屏東也有很多地方我們一個平面車站的美觀景觀是很漂亮你這樣做這個行 我覺得真的有點破壞這個美感這個可能要再評估一下"},{"start":12197.478,"end":12207.27,"text":"那另外請教一下我們高鐵政董事長上次這個高鐵過賺不停的部分我剛剛有看了一下新聞是不是已經有做了一個懲處的一個部分是的我們有懲處了怎麼懲處"},{"start":12209.69,"end":12227.561,"text":"我們基本上現在目前應該是駕駛會激大過然後相關的主管也會有一些連帶的這個責任這樣對那除了行政處分之外那我們針對這樣的一個還有整個運作機制的檢討有沒有什麼樣的一個提出怎麼樣的一個說明"},{"start":12227.981,"end":12247.073,"text":"是的 對駕駛除了這個剛才講的這個我們還會給他ground下來三個月那其中兩個月就專對這個SOP這個技術上的這個專業再做一個完整的訓練然後通過了以後再加上一個月我們會給他做這個行醫中心這邊來做這種心理測驗跟檢討這樣那另外"},{"start":12252.216,"end":12259.526,"text":"現在高鐵的運量實在是非常的大所以我想每一個站都是一樣我們都要用最嚴謹的一個安全的態度來處理"},{"start":12260.532,"end":12289.065,"text":"是的那另外跟委員報告就是說為了預防這樣一個人為的疏失再次發生我們也做了兩個處置就是說在行控中心跟這個駕駛的這個對話裡面我們會加一句就是說行控中心告訴這個駕駛雖然是在板橋這邊是速度設限是70但是你還是要依這個表定的時間來停車加是這一句話"},{"start":12290.265,"end":12320.045,"text":"那另外就是說我們在整個規範裡面對於像行控中心我們會要求說第一個如果列車長發現這個駕駛又是有應該要停然後停下來又要垮車馬上又用PEI然後要求他趕快停車同時也告訴我們行控中心說這個應該要告訴駕駛行控中心接受了以後要求他就取消他的設定要停下來"},{"start":12320.645,"end":12346.467,"text":"那大概說這樣的一個防範我們可以把這樣的一個人為的疏忽那把它消滅掉確保不要再發生那我再請教另外一個問題我們現在所有的高鐵回到站裡之後是不是要做一個所謂的UT檢測的這個部分UT會UT檢測的部分UT檢測就是那個對你是碳商"},{"start":12348.591,"end":12363.235,"text":"就是說軌道我們是定期的就是說這個軌道平常我們有檢測它們但是那個U2的碳傷就是在這個結構上看它裡面有沒有產生一些鋼軌有沒有所產生的變化是的 有做這樣的一個碳傷的檢測這個有落實嗎有的 這個都是確實在做"},{"start":12370.577,"end":12384.511,"text":"這個我請董事長回去要好好了解一下因為我們這邊有接到關於這個部分確實有一些狀況存在那我想請董事長回去了解一下好不好那我會找時間再跟董事長討論一下畢竟這個攸關到每天這麼多通行組的一個安全不能夠因為有這個設的這個東西UT檢測但是"},{"start":12393.905,"end":12418.013,"text":"有偽造的一個資料的一個呈現這是大問題啦那這不允許的是所以這部分當總經理了解一下我會再找你一下好謝謝徐委員指導好那最後我想針對這個台鐵事故將近每年一千件不定是這也一樣現在台鐵通行的人數也非常的多怎麼樣降低這個事故我想這未來也是需要台鐵總公司大家一起努力"},{"start":12418.933,"end":12426.045,"text":"那是不是可以在一個月之內提出一個書面報告降低事故的這個報告好 這個沒有問題好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝徐富奎委員現在請蔡其昌副院長執行"},{"start":12441.822,"end":12446.047,"text":"謝謝主席 請交通部陳部長交通部陳部長鐵道局楊局長還有台鐵公司吳代理董事長"},{"start":12462.929,"end":12484.76,"text":"這個我剛剛其實今天要問的剛剛在臨時提案因為主席英明先處理這個臨時提案所以我的想法其實我剛剛已經先講了一個簡要版那我想細節的部分來就教部長跟鐵路跟鐵道局這個六月這個鐵道鐵路海線的鐵路是不是要改點"},{"start":12486.054,"end":12511.382,"text":"對 六月改點六月二十幾 二十三嘛 是嗎六月二十六那現在改點前啊這個西部啊 就海線啊這個北上跟南下一天各有幾個班次海線 北上南下 麻煩提供一下平日八十九 假日九十一班對 如果經過我們台中的"},{"start":12513.698,"end":12531.944,"text":"北上是不是十一班南下是不是九班你就知道我要問這個 又沒經驗去自己揭穿我剛剛在臨時提案我已經講 等一下我再問這個陳追憲是沒錯 就是從大甲到台中我的意思很簡單啦 你們這個對這個資訊我剛剛已經提我已經非常重視這個題目"},{"start":12541.172,"end":12548.021,"text":"改班改班6月23日之後會不會減少不會不會減少時間有沒有不一樣"},{"start":12549.828,"end":12575.305,"text":"目前在海線的部分也沒有調整也沒有調整 唯一調整的就是因為你志強號要修理所以改成900型的那個區間塊的方式換車型啦 班次時間都沒有調整我這樣理解對嗎 對部長我想喔過去你在海線當議員過去我們也一起努力讓海線的班次現在"},{"start":12576.704,"end":12588.241,"text":"如果我的資訊沒有錯啦北上11班南下9班這個比起20年前它的確增加了我記得我剛當立委的時候應該好像只有3班5班左右而已啦"},{"start":12588.869,"end":12613.442,"text":"所以我們過去這些年來努力爭取足批增加但我們都很清楚它的長線要解決海線班次過少因為你看譬如說我的資料上面海線一天11班三線有33班北上所以就三倍啦這個極為不合理啦極為不合理所以那我們有知道原因是因為海線的雙軌"},{"start":12615.484,"end":12630.525,"text":"過去遲遲都沒有做沒有決定但現在經過我過去這些人的努力我們現在定案而且已經進入了這個時程裡面了所以就等待早日可以動工完工的那一天但我還是覺得"},{"start":12632.176,"end":12656.643,"text":"海線的鐵路一定要去實場的要去動態的檢討就是能夠播出時段是因為它太多單軌所以我們要灰車要燒單車所以才會搬赤子只有那麼少那所以我希望鐵道局能夠認真的去檢討請台鐵公司認真一起檢討到底我們可不可以再擠出那個量出來"},{"start":12658.094,"end":12686.072,"text":"想辦法再擠出這個量第二個在時間點的選擇上面我們也都知道或許他可能在特定的時間譬如說早上上下早上或者傍晚上下班可能對你們有這個大數據可以去做一些規劃跟了解把它優化這個就是我做這個臨時提案我要的這個強調因為這個客數其實每一年都存在我每一年都要解釋說"},{"start":12688.203,"end":12715.008,"text":"海線要解決根本問題就是要雙軌這個也應該早就應該要做了所以部長我希望在這個任內我們分長線我們把雙軌可以讓它如期的完成短線我希望我們鐵路單位能夠不定期的動態的去檢討只要能夠加入班次或者整個行程表可以優化我們都努力來做這個這個就是那個報告的重點 可以嗎"},{"start":12716.048,"end":12740.118,"text":"我所知道委員也不斷在推動這件事情那台鐵很像最近有開過兩次會議針對這件事情已經在做檢討我們就希望說讓他最優化因為我們目前鐵軌就是只有單軌第一要最優化符合民眾真正需求的時間點第二就是要最大化提供的量能要最大化這個部分目前已經開過兩次的會議那我們還在檢討"},{"start":12740.998,"end":12765.881,"text":"那所以就是那個報告就是以最大化和最優化的角度回復給本席怎麼樣可以再把這兩個目標把它做好好不好第二個部分啊這個台鐵公司啊這個剛剛許副委員問到齁這個每一年統計啊公司化之後看起來那個數字也沒有減少啦行車的事故啊等等那我看過站不停啊"},{"start":12766.636,"end":12780.683,"text":"光前面這幾個月就有七次過站不停對不對包括我們清水站也一次過站不停時間有限啦過站不停這個我上次在高鐵的時候我就已經念過一次了這個很離譜那你們台鐵過站不停有沒有賠償旅客"},{"start":12787.918,"end":12801.169,"text":"沒有就是我們的賠償為什麼可以過站不停沒有賠償旅客就在我們的旅客運輸的相關規定裡面是如果造成旅客延誤30分鐘以上我們會這個45分鐘會給旅客做一個賠償"},{"start":12805.546,"end":12827.464,"text":"那所以過站不停是算多久 算延誤多久因為它不停所以不算延誤過站不停也有處理的時間啦 就看你是超過的是車廂數是多少因為我們要照SOP來做一個對對對 那我的意思是這樣啦 這個就是我要求齁那個高鐵公司過站不停 雖然那個補償我也不滿意啦"},{"start":12829.687,"end":12857.242,"text":"但是至少人家還知道說要立刻票價怎麼算然後立刻再送上小禮物表達他們誠意雖然我是覺得這個應該照理說過站不停應該退錢給人家才對那我意思說台鐵如果你們有SOP你們應該要處理這個SOP就是你們要去檢討這個SOP過站不停你把它想像一個人要去上課要去上班"},{"start":12858.564,"end":12880.21,"text":"火車不是很多 他不是像坐捷運說這一站不停不然我五分鐘或十分鐘後又來一班嘛過站不停可能我下一班要等一個小時啊要等三十分鐘以上啊你給我過站不停我就來不及了嘛我可能要改搭計程車我才敢上班嘛這個可以因為這樣就完全台鐵當成沒有當那一回事"},{"start":12881.51,"end":12905.51,"text":"過去就過去啦報告委員您所提的這個我認為非常合理啦所以我要求台鐵現在立刻針對這個SOP馬上做檢討對應該要檢討啦如果過站不停對旅客的這個賠償或者是補償這個應該是要做的對他不是要你他重點不是賠償跟補償但是那個是對台鐵公司你們內部的要求啦你們如果事故再不下降我就要做臨時提案以後出現這種都賠十倍"},{"start":12907.93,"end":12922.845,"text":"我就來做臨時提案要求台鐵要賠十倍就是你們要有機制來檢討就是那個SOP到底出了什麼問題你看高鐵只出現過一次高鐵已經上上下下雞飛狗跳了台鐵好像"},{"start":12923.866,"end":12950.186,"text":"不搞個大概三五百次好像大家也覺得還好啦 幾次而已所以這個同樣在交通部下面我們不應該對兩個我們當然知道 不能完全等同啦但是不可以面對事情的態度是這個樣子那就大家會不施掌勁啦反正也不會有事啊就過就過啊 沒事要怎麼樣啊就沒停就沒停啊 沒事要怎麼樣這種態度我覺得很重要啊這個態度對了"},{"start":12951.747,"end":12973.15,"text":"我們就可以開始內部的那個管理啊才會那個螺絲才會鬆的緊一點這樣好不好好那因為時間的關係最後我只講一個就是台中機場的那個混亂的問題是我早上已經講過了那那個局長可不可以這個檢討可以什麼時候有一個有一個答案"},{"start":12978.142,"end":13002.04,"text":"有關因為他分兩個部分如果是屬於機場的部分我們現在主任在開會我們會儘速來處理包含航班太密集的等等我們看看怎麼樣來在時間帶上面再做調整那可是涉及這個檢疫單位或者是關稅的部分我們可能需要一點時間因為畢竟他也是在執行國家的一個防疫的政策有幾個原則一定要把握第一個"},{"start":13004.202,"end":13019.776,"text":"這個班次不能因為我們內部機場航廈整個運作跟管理的問題導致這個航班給我取消掉這個航班不能減少這第一個不能減少第二個你要設想未來我們還在增加"},{"start":13020.951,"end":13044.457,"text":"對嘛 你知道嘛 我動不 只要這個民航局我只有一個問題嘛就是台中機場的事情所以未來還是會增加那還是會增加我們要事先去預防它分散的問題不要集中那這是民航局可以做的那航廈或者其他的空間的規劃動線的設施這個都民航局要去解決啦"},{"start":13045.157,"end":13068.716,"text":"就是要增採X光設備能不能增買那個空間擺得下擺不下那長期要怎麼來做這個都要趕快現在未雨綢繆先來做那至於要涉及其他單位的部分我也要特別拜託部長趕快把各單位找來怎麼請各單位來協助大家一起把這個問題解決啦這樣好不好 就是說讓他會"},{"start":13070.737,"end":13086.482,"text":"會擁擠這很正常桃園也會擁擠嘛你到日本的機場那更可能要排隊有時候排更久但是那個動線清楚然後不要產生那種混亂到不可那種大家會覺得有抱怨的情形那我講過了台中就算"},{"start":13087.522,"end":13109.042,"text":"現在有一點擁擠對中部人而言還是比去台北做來得更省時啦所以這個要麻煩部長盡量要把它做到比較規矩一點這樣我們跨部會的溝通也同時會來進行對對對對好 謝謝謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝蔡其昌副院長現在請魯明哲委員執行"},{"start":13122.113,"end":13147.098,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請我們交通部陳部長好 交通部陳部長鐵道局楊局長好 鐵道局楊局長台鐵公司馮總好 馮總有到嗎台鐵 台鐵吳總吳董事長吳董事長 台鐵 台鐵嗎台鐵來 吳董事長吳董事長 台鐵公司本身沒來你就代表有有有 台鐵公司那個總經理也在 總經理也在還有總經理也有來"},{"start":13151.857,"end":13177.837,"text":"沒有啦 不見啦沒有啦 他在門口進來 進來總經理來委員好好首先我們討論鐵道的一個安全當然除了這個軌道本身鐵路本身之外我們整個戰區的安全也是整體安全之一那這個部分"},{"start":13178.916,"end":13181.158,"text":"好幾個問題第一個部長電梯大概你可以撐幾分鐘啊關在裡面是耐力有沒有測試過有沒有不小心被測試過"},{"start":13203.26,"end":13221.613,"text":"沒有不小心被測試過但如果超過五分鐘我大概會蠻害怕我是覺得我最多十分鐘我會受不了五分鐘我覺得還是我覺得馮總經理你會不會比較容易因為台鐵訓練的關係大概在電梯裡面可以撐多久一般大概15分鐘應該就是好那4月19號發生的這個因為"},{"start":13224.995,"end":13241.1,"text":"你在中壢站全台灣吞吐量第三大站而且你又在你的管制區內的電梯其實人經常是還滿滿的所以那種壓力比我們一般一個人兩個人在電梯裡面壓力是更大"},{"start":13242.239,"end":13260.395,"text":"那我們現在的問題點是發生什麼事4月19號之後他按當時有這個通知所以他這個新聞是五天之後才做的然後記者是裡面沒有幾人他在測試結果在測試的過程中他測試結果說怎麼找不到人然後按照上面的電話去打"},{"start":13262.045,"end":13278.53,"text":"打了電話說在開會下午一點打電話開會然後到四點了三個小時到時候人還沒來還好是實驗就演習可是回到4月19號真正那天電梯裡面人是很多的然後按緊急對講機"},{"start":13280.991,"end":13296.602,"text":"這個我們最後了解我們台鐵公司有人接喔有人能值班好像是副站長第一時間就走到電梯旁邊就跟他們對看可是對看沒什麼用那發生什麼事就要請這個修電梯的來"},{"start":13297.743,"end":13322.07,"text":"最後40分鐘40分鐘等他40分鐘真的是也沒有辦法在場的消防隊還是消防隊把他打開的所以我要拜託你們因為各地都有這樣的一個電梯而且你們包括還沒上台上這個高鐵都一樣那個人都很擁擠你們的SOP怎麼樣我不清楚後面一問說我們的合約是一個小時以內要到我的天哪"},{"start":13323.097,"end":13336.148,"text":"那不長五分鐘我就說十分鐘啦我跟你講喔修電梯跟救人是完全兩件事完全不同的事情嘛所以我要拜託一下喔你們那SOP喔是不是"},{"start":13337.27,"end":13353.838,"text":"你要救人一定要優先如果電梯需要恢復正常如果你一個小時以內還可以接受所以那一天我想陳文哲副局長也在那邊就說我們有特別做了一個幾個建議說你們要回去研究總經理說一下研究結果能夠縮短到什麼時間救人"},{"start":13355.679,"end":13376.187,"text":"報告委員我們現在目前廠商的時間我們已經縮短到30分鐘因為也是委員當場在現場會刊給我們一個指導要求那但是第一時間我們的這個對講機會連線我們的行車室我們第一時間我們值班副站長就一定會到這個電梯去關懷被受困的旅客"},{"start":13376.727,"end":13394.977,"text":"那這個部分是回答委員剛才說這個時間的問題好第二個問題30分鐘事實上他到了那你們的合約啦我也沒辦法可是對於救人來講還是稍微長了一點所以我要拜託你第一個如果在電梯在正常的位置的時候我要拜託你們的工作人員"},{"start":13395.717,"end":13414.244,"text":"因為很多機械都會嘛也要有一些值班人員對於簡單如果電梯沒有到定位一個樓層的定位那是誰也沒辦法啦說真的如果要到定位可以對到門我們是希望第一個我們在這個台鐵台鐵的各站要有人"},{"start":13414.944,"end":13431.687,"text":"就能夠第一優先解決第二個呢消防隊到的也能夠讓他去做處理因為那天消防隊到說打電話給公司公司還是說你不要碰我電梯啊這個這樣不行欸救人優先可不可以部長講一下你就救人優先吧你做個結論好不好"},{"start":13432.148,"end":13453.425,"text":"當然是要救人優先我的想法跟您一樣就是說我們在站裡面的戰務人員有沒有這個基礎可以去處理的這個能力這個部分其實是可以訓練的可以讓他們有這樣子的能力可以快速先來解決不然對民眾來講我即便看到你在窗外但我出不去我心裡面會非常害怕所以這個部分請台鐵公司趕快來落實"},{"start":13454.363,"end":13476.679,"text":"好的麻煩這個全國有相關情況都改善一下尤其它這個是四座電梯兩座是在外圍的行人也可以走是中壢區公所管理的內圍的是台鐵的所以這個部分麻煩你們要合作一下那接下來我們在台鐵的總體檢我們發覺已經大概兩千多天了六年半"},{"start":13477.523,"end":13503.459,"text":"六年半這從普悠瑪事件我們政府下定決心要給台鐵做一個總體檢那事實上解決了你們也解決很多一個列管那現在為什麼在安全改革總共16項但我比較care安全改革到底發生什麼問題我們看右邊因為你們總體檢要解除列管列管流程第一個是台鐵先自己擬定改善計畫"},{"start":13504.58,"end":13521.059,"text":"第二個呢你們成立一個安全管理這個委員會來做這個計畫的一個審查你知道嗎過去台鐵在交通部啊還沒成立公司的時候我覺得這合理啦那現在他公司化你知道嗎第一關也是台鐵"},{"start":13522.56,"end":13546.173,"text":"然後審查台鐵報告的人雖然有外聘委員大概五到六位啦總共十幾位裡面他也是台鐵內部所以第一關台鐵提報告計畫第二關也是台鐵那整個弄好之後才有第三關解除列管部長你覺得這個程序在他們公式化之後要不要第二關給鐵道局員還是誰你說一下吧"},{"start":13546.792,"end":13573.092,"text":"是 報告委員過去的流程是這個樣子那現在改制公司化之後確實這個流程我們來做一下檢討有沒有可能稍微做改變或者是說合理性到底應該怎麼做會比較合理這個部分我認為是應該做檢討畢竟公司化之後跟過去的狀況是完全不一樣的現在的台鐵是公司它不像過去是公務機關它有一些公權力那目前的台鐵是公司不一定有這個公權力在這個部分我們來做檢討"},{"start":13573.885,"end":13593.283,"text":"好 謝謝部長跟鐵道局你們研究一下啦因為第一個才剛寫完報告不管是基電什麼問題他寫完報告然後他又入列來審查這個 我是覺得有點奇怪那我們來看看安全管委會現在是在台鐵公司裡面雖然有部分的外聘委員討論一些結果"},{"start":13594.324,"end":13611.072,"text":"當然我不知道會不會有以偏概全哇 你全部都做得很好100項99項都做好被魯明哲委員挑了一項會不會有這種情況 我不清楚啊不過我們來看一下自家安全委員會你們台鐵也通過囉改善報告台鐵公司寫的然後自己審查覺得OK審查事項是什麼呢"},{"start":13612.732,"end":13637.083,"text":"說希望能夠導入自動化跟智慧化系統用系統來簡化人力避免他們犯錯就是原本也沒有有一些系統希望能夠導入這個用詞很清楚然後簡化一些人力的疏失系統可以發現結果你們也通過安全管理委員會的一個審議我蠻佩服的台鐵公司提了三個方案"},{"start":13638.869,"end":13661.961,"text":"導入自動化跟智慧化 是我沒看懂嗎第一 強化各單位人員現場實作的訓練沒有系統嘛第二 成立北中南東的員工訓練所弄四根教室出來 讓人可以培訓第三 對我們人員建立回訓制度"},{"start":13663.784,"end":13687.265,"text":"因為時間的關係我就覺得說沒有對到答案這是不是其他的改善事項的答案不小心放在這邊是什麼情況那這個麻煩你們回去研究一下時間的關係那我想請教一下交通部部長剛剛是第二關啦這個安全委員會他的審查最終"},{"start":13688.812,"end":13697.58,"text":"亂完之後要解除列管要送交通部要審查同意解除列管那我們又看了一個是你們已經解除列管"},{"start":13698.683,"end":13719.218,"text":"解除裂管是什麼呢 平交到防護設施異常訊號處理那什麼時候解除裂管呢 在圖的下方去年的5月15號解除裂管就應該沒問題了 改善完畢了但是呢 改善完畢不到18天 新聞媒體就在報這邊好像是嘉義的新聞 說半年大概四五次"},{"start":13720.859,"end":13736.22,"text":"平交到一個防護的一個相關的柵欄還是一直有問題那其實蠻危險的有問題到列車要停下來然後列車站下來然後配合用手動再把這樣的一個"},{"start":13737.441,"end":13756.058,"text":"相關的一個設施做一個處理那我們再看右邊的圖就是你解列之前113年5月份解除列管往前推10個月以台鐵跟網的報告發生了7件類似的事件但你解除列管往後推10個月發生了11件"},{"start":13757.796,"end":13776.521,"text":"那我是因為我覺得民眾包括我們你們想法都一樣我們希望大家努力了半天報告也寫了我相信也想辦法去落實想辦法去改善終於解除列管了可是感覺實際效果不夠啊部長你說一下你的想法好不好"},{"start":13777.421,"end":13798.309,"text":"劣管如果要解除必然是達到我們認為他會改善的標準我們才會解除劣管所以我們當然期待說解除劣管之後要看出改善的成效那不過就委員所提出來的這個很明顯看出來很像沒有改善的成效那這個原因要不要台鐵要不要說一下我們解除了劣管但是之後卻更多"},{"start":13798.939,"end":13823.457,"text":"報告委員 就是解除列管是因為我們自動障礙物偵測已經建完了 測試驗收那為什麼在解除列管以後一段時間內還數量比較多是因為我們採用自動化的偵測所以有的人或是相關的物品在我們的防護區內他會告警 告警我們的列車就會一度停車等這個確認沒有障礙物他才會通行"},{"start":13823.797,"end":13846.238,"text":"那現在目前整個系統的這個整個妥善率還有它的精準率都提高了所以現在這種情形其實是已經所以在晚3月你是叫我在往14年今年3月再往後看10個月沒關係我們下次來看一下我們總而言之我們希望實際解決問題不是paperwork文件最後怎麼樣去追蹤那請問一下"},{"start":13851.623,"end":13868.579,"text":"我們楊局長 鐵道局因為我們有聽到有針對於這種安全的一個事項解除列管 後面到底怎麼追蹤我們看到你有專訪過你你這邊特別寫 解除列管分成三大類只要有明確執行的計畫 著手執行就會從總體檢中解除列管 這個沒問題"},{"start":13874.545,"end":13896.168,"text":"然後再來改由鐵道局的定期檢查機制來追蹤那我覺得這個追蹤那我剛剛講的情況你有沒有追蹤我不太清楚那可是之前王國才當部長的時候他特別說了一件事他說如果台鐵公司化之後"},{"start":13897.189,"end":13918.394,"text":"鐵道局代辦台鐵的工程他覺得不太適合來監管台鐵球員兼裁判我自己做的然後我再看看我做的好不好然後這個他是覺得有點奇怪然後他希望能夠把鐵道局的監管單位直接移到交通部這個大概目前的方向是如何你們說明一下做個結論目前有嗎 有在做嗎"},{"start":13924.889,"end":13953.391,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下那個鐵路法已經修過了那只要是這個台鐵營運上面的監理就是我們鐵道局那鐵道局的工程監理那基本上就在部裡面那以前是在這一個路政司那現在改組完之後是在路政道安司那有些案子也會到公共運輸監理室來那所以鐵道局本身工程的監理鐵路法已經修了對對對現在就鐵道局就對了對對對在部裡面確定齁對"},{"start":13954.532,"end":13983.423,"text":"交通部 反正鐵道局那我最後的結論是說因為票價六月底就要漲了民眾期待的不管安全品質也希望部長跟我們台鐵公司大家一定要加油讓大家看到你說你票價漲了 安全沒有漲這是不行的 謝謝是 謝謝委員好 謝謝我們魯明哲委員接下來請喜智傑召委執行"},{"start":13996.66,"end":14015.007,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長好 請交通部陳部長委員好 部長好部長我現在有一個資料就是高齡駕駛高齡駕駛65歲以上的發生車禍的比例蠻高 大概20%20幾%"},{"start":14026.113,"end":14054.189,"text":"那這個部分其實讓我想到台灣的駕照平常考完了換照的機制部長有清楚嗎報告委員就高齡的部分我們確實是有換照的機制那針對他的認知功能的部分我們也會做這個檢測那我們希望說高齡的這個肇事率可以下降這個部分我們有在做對所以這個其實要特別的做因為高齡的"},{"start":14056.287,"end":14076.249,"text":"長者通常他會覺得他沒有問題他覺得說為什麼你要找我麻煩為什麼我不能開車但是他的身體機能退化之後可能他自己不是那麼的清楚所以我們看一下世界各國的比較"},{"start":14078.43,"end":14100.677,"text":"日本是70歲以上 每五年要換照韓國是65歲一接 新加坡是65歲以上美國跟英國是70歲 跟丹麥是70歲以上我們台灣現在是75歲以上 每三年要換一次所以我是認為這個有檢討的必要"},{"start":14105.219,"end":14119.545,"text":"那不想知道其他國家他們平常我們台灣是一張駕照考完以後就等到老的時候才來換照對不對其他的國家中間有沒有換照您知道嗎這個我不曉得是不是"},{"start":14121.811,"end":14134.942,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告一下確實這個其他國家的規定有點不太一樣我跟委員報告一下我們現行是這一個就是說我們原來以前的部分是六年這一個換照一次那職業駕駛執照是這個三年要"},{"start":14138.966,"end":14154.006,"text":"這個審議一次那後來在102年的時候也是這個院裡面交通委員會這邊這個決議說這個要求這個部裡面要來檢討是不是不要6年這個婚外一次但是剛剛我們所提到國外的情況那國外的情況確實也有6年"},{"start":14154.767,"end":14180.579,"text":"那也有10年那也有後來譬如說我們現在後來102年這個檢討那這個就是說考上駕駛執照之後那原則上如果沒有被吊扣吊銷那大概就是到75歲再回來就是終身嘛對對對那終身的這樣的部分其實在法國在歐洲有些國家也是用這個終身來那個所以駕照管理的一個這個部分基本上大概各國都會有些這個差異我是建議說我們"},{"start":14182.18,"end":14210.278,"text":"統一做個思考啦就是比較各國的好壞嘛那其實大部分的國家中間都有換照的機制啊那他們換照的機制是根據體檢比如說你十年也好或幾年也好你必須去體檢因為一輩子身體的狀況一定會不一樣我年輕的時候考了照結果我中間身體發生什麼狀況但是我們的"},{"start":14211.691,"end":14221.338,"text":"駕照還是都不變那也許他身體發生狀況他就不能再開了那也許是年紀老化他沒有辦法再開了"},{"start":14222.199,"end":14249.854,"text":"但是一般人都不清楚會以為說我就都可以開當然我們站在人民的角度他自己當然不希望你來擾亂我不需要去換照啦以人民的角度當然他最希望是這樣子但是呢以安全的角度以整個道路整個行駛讓國人安全的角度事實上我是認為是有必要可以去做一下檢討"},{"start":14250.874,"end":14279.653,"text":"是 報告委員我覺得這個部分是有必要做檢討那我們目前交通部內部也在做這個檢討這方面的檢討有在做了對但是委員可以提更好的一些建議啦我們也都會參考例如說委員覺得頻率應該怎麼樣抓會比較好或者說年紀應該怎麼抓會比較好或者是我們在換照的過程當中應該有加入哪一些檢測的方案也歡迎委員們給對 所以我就說我們交通部統一做個規劃嘛你比如說10年需要體檢"},{"start":14281.174,"end":14306.739,"text":"然後來換照表示你身體狀況沒問題嘛那比如說你75歲以上或者是70歲以上也需要體檢因為我的意思就是說每個人身體的機能改變之後我就舉我爸的例子幾年前我就請他不要開車他就一直要開他說為什麼我不能開那我就說你已經"},{"start":14308.352,"end":14313.66,"text":"視力有減退 那你不適合開他就會說 我只有駕照啊我身體還好 為什麼我不能開"},{"start":14315.496,"end":14338.542,"text":"那後來我們就叫他真的去檢查視力真的是有減退所以我們好不容易才勸導他說好啦 我們身體狀況改變 改調整就是要調整不然不是為了你自己安全而已 你還顧著別人的安全所以其實這是一個很明顯的例子啦我是覺得 那長輩通常他會認為說我沒問題啦"},{"start":14340.647,"end":14355.856,"text":"但是事實上可能身體狀況已經改變了他還是認為是他沒問題所以我覺得這個應該是整體來做一個思考好那再來就是說我們的那個教室我們這個所有的那個"},{"start":14357.233,"end":14375.812,"text":"客運車的那個數量現在都在減少所以你看我們偏鄉的老人為什麼他還想要開車我交通不方便嘛所以你看我們的客運車國道還是偏鄉的這些路線都在減少當中那這個交通部有沒有什麼補救的方案"},{"start":14377.399,"end":14404.43,"text":"報告委員就客運的部分我們當然一直在協助客運業者我們希望路線要維持住因為很多的客運雖然大家現在很多人是搭雙鐵但是客運等於是我們的末梢成金必須要做好所以除了一般的客運以外我們也有做幸福巴士委員剛剛所提到的偏鄉的部分我們就是用幸福巴士來補齊那我本身也有到基層下去看去偏鄉看幸福巴士的成效算是不錯那目前也變成更彈性用預約制的"},{"start":14405.35,"end":14427.564,"text":"讓偏鄉的公共運輸能夠做得起來這個其實就是我以前曾經要求過現在我們來檢視一下就是大概做了多少比如說你拿我們高雄來講高雄現在52條小黃公車路線事實上高雄應該是最早做的啦那也做得最好的"},{"start":14428.937,"end":14453.993,"text":"那有很多的長輩,事實上我們不管是固定的路線還是預約的路線我們都會盡量去長輩設想,這也先公車的錢啦你公車去省省的,一台車這麼大台,開在一個人兩個人你用公車小房,又省錢又方便,甚至公車小房的設計也是很好你就坐到這裡車這麼高,你到底在這附近,我直接載你回去"},{"start":14457.088,"end":14469.777,"text":"這個感覺就好很多所以高雄市事實上我們辦到現在一直都覺得成效蠻不錯那我想知道就其他的縣市現在是不是都有比照辦理了推動的效果如何"},{"start":14472.067,"end":14488.61,"text":"跟委員報告一下那個數字我不是很精準但是在186個鄉鎮大概有480幾條這個幸福巴士包括這個小黃公車的一個路線180個鄉鎮186然後480幾條這個路線480幾條平均4條那這個政府剛剛委員所提到的部分確實這個目前推的這個規模比較大就是高雄市跟這個屏東"},{"start":14498.652,"end":14518.261,"text":"OK 我是希望說你們再推一下啦剛你的數據平均一個鄉鎮4條我們高雄52條差不多 我們高雄38個鄉鎮所以就是說這個希望說交通部繼續推那你們這個公運計畫114年編列的剛才那一張114年編列的經費現在被凍結的狀況"},{"start":14528.792,"end":14542.68,"text":"會影響到你們推動這個計畫嗎跟委員報告一下確實對於地方的補助是有影響但是裡面有關於小黃公車的部分就是偏鄉興福巴士的部分我們是列為第一優先"},{"start":14543.689,"end":14559.247,"text":"OK 好 那現在我們大概總結一下就是高齡的駕照跟平常的駕照是不是需要體檢來換照然後來維護我們交通整體的安全那偏鄉的"},{"start":14560.729,"end":14589.535,"text":"客運的國道的不足的部分我們的幸福小黃幸福巴士希望說公路局在這一方面可以繼續加強來照顧偏鄉的老人至少他可以不用開車他有車座他自然就會比較少開車所以這個整體的交通安全希望我們交通部再做一個整體的思考好謝謝謝謝好謝謝喜智傑召委現在請王玉川委員執行"},{"start":14601.127,"end":14614.342,"text":"謝謝主席我們請這個武次長然後高鐵鄭董事長還有鐵道局陳副局長鐵道局陳副局長鄭董事長還有武董事長"},{"start":14620.319,"end":14630.006,"text":"委員好吳次長你是這一個高鐵公司的督導的次長是那高鐵公司針對4月14號T204班次的這樣的檢討報告你滿意嗎"},{"start":14634.666,"end":14651.823,"text":"那天我有找他們來初步開過會當然它裡面大概還是在所謂的人員的問題當然我們希望能夠要求這個人員的一些疏失還是要想辦法你覺得問題是人員疏失嗎目前我看起來是這樣你也這樣認為對"},{"start":14653.717,"end":14674.022,"text":"你也這樣認為所以如果不是那個駕駛這個事情不會發生也不是說因為他當下的那個情境啊當下情境我了解他是因為他本來是在這之前他認為知道是要停車但是他到了以後沒有把訊號你這個回答很恐怖來鄭董事長這個發生這個事情啊這個駕駛的問題是這整個問題的關鍵"},{"start":14684.063,"end":14705.542,"text":"我們的軌道運輸跟公路運輸最大的不同就是軌道運輸要大量的靠系統要大量的靠系統的防災機制我們不能依賴駕駛我們也不能依賴列車長不能說車子停下來列車長發現怎麼沒開然後列車長趕快按鈕說駕駛你怎麼沒開門這不對"},{"start":14710.529,"end":14736.928,"text":"軌道運輸跟公路運輸最大的不同就是我們軌道運輸有大量的防呆機制系統非常的就是主要重要的但是人員要能夠按照他的這個SOP即使人員沒有按照SOP後面的防呆機制也要救回來即使人員沒有照SOP軌道運輸的防呆機制也要把他救回來"},{"start":14738.277,"end":14751.543,"text":"所以鄭董事長你大概兩個禮拜前你說是因為那個駕駛啊這個 今天各位都沒有開停板橋的啦所以可能動作板橋他開都沒停啊這句話更危險這句話更危險代表我們的高鐵的駕駛啊開車都憑經驗憑感覺高鐵捏不是台鐵喔"},{"start":14763.868,"end":14772.573,"text":"台鐵一些老駕駛啊 開了開了就知道說 差不多要高五次了車也不要來 速度降到多一點 那就罷免停了 那沒問題啊高鐵不行啊 高鐵絕對不行這也是國人相信高鐵 全世界相信高鐵的原因就是要靠大量的系統來阻止這個駕駛員的疏失啦"},{"start":14790.854,"end":14818.14,"text":"是 跟委員報告 剛才講的那個什麼恍神啊或者怎麼樣 那個都是藉口啦其實最重要的是說 你要應該在每一個動作裡面 你要做好你確實的對嘛 SOP所以不要一直談這個是駕駛 這個很危險這個包括鐵道局五次長 還有那個交通部五次長這個邏輯也要想辦法調整好不好 這個再講一遍 軌道運輸跟公路運輸是差很多的喔第二個"},{"start":14819.22,"end":14823.224,"text":"為什麼這一個車子到了板橋站車子到了板橋站車子到了板橋站車子到了板橋站車子到了板橋站車子到了板橋站車子到了板橋站"},{"start":14835.097,"end":14842.162,"text":"這個閉塞區間喔 這個閉塞區間他還沒 時間還沒到喔那不是說公車看不人就開車喔 不是喔高鐵是準時幾點發車就幾點發車喔這一個車站設定幾點幾分發車就是幾點幾分 也不能停車開喔裡面的轉車機一把它轉正綠燈就亮這個駕駛 現在你們的報告說這個駕駛啊看到綠燈 所以他就往前走了"},{"start":14862.096,"end":14872.881,"text":"跟委員報告因為他會開啟這個路徑設定的話主要是因為我們的駕駛這個車子啊已經到了這個軌道區了已經到了這個區域裡面所以他會開始"},{"start":14877.003,"end":14905.338,"text":"那輝遠講的沒錯其實我們這個駕駛他又換了一個疏忽就是說他照規定你要停下來要再開啟的時候你要跟行控中心確認你的時間你要自己要知道確認時間到了開車時間到了沒有那這個他沒有做他就自己就開了所以就換了另外一個疏忽搞清楚市長跟鐵道局搞清楚為什麼轉車期一轉正時間還沒到就讓你等這個事情一定要解決"},{"start":14906.479,"end":14922.781,"text":"否則現在駕駛只要說我看到綠燈開軌道車的人看到綠燈我不往前走是我有事啊看到紅燈我不能走啊現在的設計是轉車機一轉正比賽車前就打開一打開綠燈亮他就走了"},{"start":14923.698,"end":14942.491,"text":"這太危險 這個機制也要進行相關的調整我想這些機制從這個案子裡頭看得出來高鐵公司有非常大的改善空間因為避免 這個事件當然沒有發生事故可是這個事情就可以看得出來我們高鐵的價值"},{"start":14944.38,"end":14962.853,"text":"每次行車之前啊 感覺因為可能有經驗嘛開車都憑感覺啊 憑經驗啦我開到這裡就怎樣但是國人會相信高鐵我們在學校教書啊 跟學生都是這樣講的嘛高鐵公司有合腦的系統啊"},{"start":14963.633,"end":14991.554,"text":"用系統化來來防止房呆即使駕駛打瞌睡即使駕駛弄錯了即使駕駛怎樣那個房呆機制第一關第二關第三關都可以把它鎖下來這原來的系統設計是這樣我想這董事長在高雷公司也很久總經理董事長你這一個這一個期間你們也對你對外面幹嘛是說很多房呆機制的嘛這才是你們高安全性可靠度很重要的原因嘛所以這一條"},{"start":14992.973,"end":15013.239,"text":"趕快把這個機制弄出來來鐵道局這個案子有沒有開罰報告委員這個案子我們已經成立專案小組要進行調查包含剛剛委員你們啟動專案小組是多久這案子發生多久啟動當天調查兩個禮拜"},{"start":15017.659,"end":15046.556,"text":"現在有調查兩個現在還在收集資料包含剛剛委員高鐵公司今天討責的發新聞稿今天要執行這條討責的發新聞稿答案都跟大家講了你們現在報告還沒出來這個是高鐵公司的報告報導跟我們的調查報告是兩碼只是因為是第三班這又過兩星期了現在高鐵公司現在的改善策略"},{"start":15047.649,"end":15055.713,"text":"報告的第十一頁第一請列車長告訴駕駛停車第二駕駛收到列車長停車趕快停車這廢話嗎那如果這個列車長就這樣沒人他不趕快跟這個駕駛說這個駕駛聽到列車長說說他也不理會車子繼續滾下去還是無解啊"},{"start":15069.679,"end":15091.895,"text":"其實你剛剛你有談到的那一個事情主要是耗資系統是不是應該會去做房貸所以這一個部分我們會就這個要啟動調查你們包括高鐵要調查最後我建議從高鐵的這個案子裡頭全台灣各捷運公司全台灣的捷運公司"},{"start":15092.861,"end":15109.76,"text":"台鐵公司高鐵公司對這種防呆機制也許不同的軌道系統的等級不一樣設定的防呆機制因為有些防呆機要花很多錢設定的不一樣但是就現有的設備現有的機制各個捷運公司軌道公司在這件事情上"},{"start":15110.501,"end":15130.797,"text":"要全面的避免即使駕駛犯錯即使駕駛沒有按照機制來做我們都能夠把他救回來把這台列車不要陷於危險這個鐵道局要自己趕快把這事情弄清楚不要到時候發生的時候我們說哪一年的4月就發生一次也在立完備詢也講得很好聽為什麼又來又發生"},{"start":15133.915,"end":15153.309,"text":"這件事情是鐵路監理的事情這個是鐵道局要負責也請我們五次長啊包括這個陳部長這個事情一定要盯緊因為只要軌道運輸發生事故都是非常嚴重的事故好 謝謝好 謝謝王玉川委員的執行接下來請鍾嘉斌委員執行"},{"start":15164.591,"end":15181.678,"text":"主席在場的委員 先進列席的政府機關市長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請我們交通部陳部長還有這個陸政司的黃司長以及我們台鐵公司的吳代理董事長吳代理董事長委員好"},{"start":15186.792,"end":15209.711,"text":"部長好 董事長好 市長好來 很快的 航商溫室氣體減排迫在眉睫燃料加速帶動氫能產業發展來 先問三個地方的問題第一 這個屏東火車站很好 謝謝我們交通部支持現在這個人因為他的 我們屏東的很多去搭火車的民眾都是在私營民營的停車場 停好機車就直接進去結果呢 三天就開了670件"},{"start":15211.212,"end":15227.861,"text":"的行人違規穿越的罰單可不可以請部長指示一下台鐵公司思考一下申請當地的改善一下 可以嗎是 這個可以做啦好 下一件我們跟地方政府大家來討論一下這個部分要怎麼做好 那第二個呢 這是陸正思這是我們在國道3號長治交流在下面"},{"start":15228.941,"end":15249.293,"text":"這幾天呢就發生了事故所以是不是可以請你們協同交通主管機關增加照明為用路人按一夜間的安全可以嗎這個已經有事故了我們趕快來改善好 謝謝 第三個之前已經有拿到 您拜託了就是我們台22線離港到高速的道路工程改善請指示一下好不好 我已經發文了他們說還沒得到部長的指示"},{"start":15250.672,"end":15261.039,"text":"好 這個我們趕快來做好 謝謝 謝謝好 那接下來就是部長的事情來 部長我們輕鬆一點商業上解決自己的問題和解決別人的問題最大差別在哪裡"},{"start":15262.924,"end":15280.918,"text":"商業上對那我直接告訴你答案啦解決自己的事要花錢啦解決別人的可以賺錢對不對最懂得這個厲害的是什麼呢台灣跟新加坡很懂得幫別人解決問題來賺錢你看一下來我再問一個台灣跟新加坡都不產石油卻有大規模的石化產業你覺得誰的規模比較大"},{"start":15283.143,"end":15307.739,"text":"猜猜看 新加坡跟台灣台灣應該比較大吧新加坡比較大 但是沒關係他供應什麼需求 我們來看一下新加坡是三大煉油中心之一 自己不產油喔但是呢 他有金融業 他有觀光業 還有航運業世界三大煉油中心 因為馬來西亞跟印尼有產油國他又是天海遭陸 然後呢 他是馬來西亞海峽航運的船子都同他經過 對不對那台灣呢 那往下看"},{"start":15308.439,"end":15328.569,"text":"台灣新加坡的船舶不多他只有船舶只有全世界運能的1.3%但是呢他是去路過的路過的船舶他別人要的他都幫他供應的相對的台灣自己用石化業創造出來的石化原料不僅製造業用也給人家什麼出口對不對所以台灣跟新加坡都很會賺錢往下看"},{"start":15329.335,"end":15352.776,"text":"那請問一下 新加坡和台灣各種航運團隊分別在哪裡補給燃料新加坡不用講嘛 就在自己家裡嘛那台灣呢 下一頁台灣在哪裡 告訴你喔台灣也可以補給燃料欸 台灣我跟你講 你看一看喔台灣目前我們十二大航商當中我們佔了七十 十一我們的總的運能佔全世界將近一成我們很大的團隊 對不對"},{"start":15354.497,"end":15378.696,"text":"人家說 如果台海運輸中斷 占五分之一會影響中央經濟表示什麼 有五分之一的航船要從台灣海峽經過 對不對所以台灣的船是不是在台灣自己加油往下看其實 往下看一些 來現在為了低碳而產生的氫能產業除了發電 工業製造 還有運輸您覺得台灣哪一個部份的應用最迫切"},{"start":15382.954,"end":15398.426,"text":"發電嗎 工業製造嗎 低碳就是氫能產業 氫能可以發電 氫能可以供應那個工業製造的熱能 氫能還可以供應運輸 運輸有陸海空請問是高鐵還是捷運要用到氫能 還是我們的飛機要用到氫能 還是航運 三個猜一個"},{"start":15400.027,"end":15426.178,"text":"最迫切的現在公車也可以然後最迫切的會是哪一個船也可以對沒有錯船最迫切好我們來看一下陸海空三者當中呢航運的最迫切我們看下一頁其實啊IMO國際海事組織已經要求到二零二八年起你如果沒有用低碳燃料你會增加到一百元美金到三百八十美金這樣額外的支出航商是不是很迫切"},{"start":15427.261,"end":15453.062,"text":"航商很迫切迫切需要什麼迫切需要低碳燃料我們來看長榮在去年已經買了20艘1.6萬吋的甲醇雙燃料船低碳他在今年要再買11艘LNG的雙燃料船萬海也宣布他要用深圳燃料他要減少20的排碳量是不是航運台灣的航運很積極好那請問他們的雙元他們的多元燃料在哪裡加再給人家看"},{"start":15454.491,"end":15476.597,"text":"陽明海運到韓國去加生子燃油啊新加坡利用他的地緣優勢他也不產油他就幫全世界路過的船舶加油現在未來的船舶要用低碳的多元燃料我們台灣可不可能幫台灣自己的船隊跟經過台灣海峽的船隊添加多元的低碳燃料有沒有可能"},{"start":15478.507,"end":15507.222,"text":"是報告員台灣當然也會建置這個啦目前甲醇我們設定是在高雄港那LNG的部分我們目前跟中油來配合可能是在永安港但是甲醇跟LNG都是過渡型的終究低碳跟無碳的一定是用不是用藍氫也不是用灰氫會用綠氫那台灣自己的綠能不夠一定要從其他國家進口綠能的原料透過液態氫或是氨我問過好幾次了所以呢大家都以為今天氫能"},{"start":15507.942,"end":15532.442,"text":"是經濟部在主管是國發會在主管是能源組在主管我要告訴你是交通部在主管所以部長我之前問過你很多次我們台灣的港部設施是不是有積極的在佈建未來船隊要添加多元燃料這樣的設備有沒有指示了報告委員這個目前都在規劃但您所提的這個氫能目前以船來說技術還沒成熟"},{"start":15533.854,"end":15553.83,"text":"技術還沒成熟2028就要開始了我們這個基礎設施不是今天想到明天就可以做好2035你要用的事情現在2025就要開始準備到2035的時候台灣本身的氫能部件我們的綠能的風電離岸風電的發展已經會超越我們發電的需求我再講一次"},{"start":15554.946,"end":15573.464,"text":"台灣目前的綠能發展離岸風電它在我們的綠電在我們能源占比電力的占比當中因為它的發電跟蓄電的匹配的錯位它在發電的高峰期超過了我們的電力需求它一定要把這個綠電轉化為氫能氫能怎麼樣最能配合台灣的需求"},{"start":15574.405,"end":15596.183,"text":"幫路過的船舶添加低碳燃料所以我們要比照石化業開始去思考台灣作為一個不產石油的地方台灣作為一個綠能相對不足的地方我們要進口綠能來煉製船舶多元低碳燃料來供應我們的船隊跟其他國家的船隊使用幫別人解決問題是才會賺錢好 最後的結論是這樣"},{"start":15599.571,"end":15619.427,"text":"要符合IMO温室地體減排措施未來台灣的航商能在台灣加注低碳或無碳燃料嗎這個部分我們當然要朝這個方向努力目標什麼時候您覺得我們要一個中長城計畫2035年可不可以具備低碳的部分我們目前正在準備已經有在準備高雄港跟永安港的部分"},{"start":15620.444,"end":15640.072,"text":"是所以呢運用台灣海峽的運量優勢也運用我們本國船隊的自有需求優勢是不是交通部你要把低碳燃料定價美國在發展輕能先定價你不定價人家不會來投資你知道嗎CIP現在的全國全球的佈局請問這位在你旁邊的是哪一位主管"},{"start":15642.075,"end":15670.23,"text":"韓市長韓市長嘛韓市長是航運行政司嘛所以你要告訴部長CIP根本哈根基金他們目前也在台灣負責台灣最大的風產跟離岸風電他們在全世界部件離岸風電他們的目標離岸風電超過當地的電力需求轉為煉低碳的多元燃料幫國際的船舶加油我們希望未來他也選擇在台灣設置這樣的煉青廠幫低碳燃料的船舶加油可以嗎"},{"start":15671.03,"end":15685.895,"text":"好 那部長 那什麼時候可以告訴我們 杭政司會開始來做這個事情請交通部將低碳燃料定價藉由航運的燃料加注 業務帶動台灣的輕能產業發展可以嗎好 可以 我們一個月之內提出書面市長可以嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員現在請張祺凱委員執行"},{"start":15707.854,"end":15728.951,"text":"請民政局的何局長跟華航的高董事長好 民航局何局長還有我們華航高董事長那個4月13號啊有一部這個CI753的這個飛機啊好"},{"start":15733.553,"end":15757.763,"text":"從桃園要飛到新加坡結果在越南的外海又撤了發動機就是引擎故障結果非常奇怪的他沒有在附近的備用機場停然後再一個半小時就可以到新加坡了結果他竟然要往回走飛到小港去了這網路上已經炸開了很多人都在質疑說"},{"start":15759.181,"end":15780.398,"text":"那時候華航是什麼只顧著這個成本不過人民的這個死活跟生命安全嗎飛機上有181名的乘客還有所有機組員的生命安全我今天就問得很具體喔 局長我底下先問等一下董事長可以回答當天有沒有比較近的機場是可以降轉的有沒有"},{"start":15782.283,"end":15803.762,"text":"跟委員報告當天因為他飛的確實是在胡志明的接近的外海的部分那當然他有幾個機場可以選擇因為他填的備用機場目的地是新加坡嘛那有一個馬尼拉的備降機場然後再來是胡志明香港那他台北這一邊是高雄台北沒有高雄"},{"start":15804.583,"end":15826.675,"text":"飛行是很精密的嘛備用機場一定是先選好的嘛那為了安全我相信說局長你的家人在飛機上部長現在在在場你的家人在機場一定是用最快的時間嘛安全第一嘛對不對那你是找一個最近的備用機場啊福建的兩個都是半個小時啊越南的縣港機場胡志明機場啊那為什麼沒有選擇這兩個甚至連這個"},{"start":15829.673,"end":15854.802,"text":"那你就飛一個半小時到也OK你往回跑耶跑三個小時 將近三個小時耶好 跟委員報告對於這個因為他要選擇在哪裡備降當然他有一些因素考量那天候也是其中一個那根據我們初步訪談華航的駕駛員的說明跟公司的說明就是他這幾個機場裡面 縣港也是其中一個那這個 這些機場他有提到有一些氣象的問題天氣的問題"},{"start":15857.023,"end":15874.448,"text":"你說的兩個最近的半個小時的這個氣候的這個問題來我給你看三個30分鐘可以到一個叫縣港一個叫福治明市最重要有沒有氣候上也沒有什麼問題降雨中間這條線那天這兩個當地的氣候一滴雨都沒有"},{"start":15885.529,"end":15892.644,"text":"上面溫度也沒有問題下面是風速風速非常適合飛機降落你有調這個資料嗎"},{"start":15893.786,"end":15919.424,"text":"我們現在正在調我們所有跟氣象TUF跟META的資料所以本來應該比較近沒有問題要降落吧等一下你們現在推說你現在是騙人還是沒有去查我們現在正在調查華航的說法是華航那我們也會根據我們航盤的這就是當天的這就是當天縣港跟胡志明市因為我們要對不對這夠清楚了嗎所以我希望民航局還有"},{"start":15921.127,"end":15934.038,"text":"華航不要欺騙我們民眾要面對問題這個部分我們在調查委員所提的資料也會來跟我們我們航管這邊機場的資料我們繼續來問這個攸關人命的事情而且絕對以後不能再換這個事情當天是誰下的這個決定是機師下的決定還是華航我們的初步訪談是還是我們初步訪談我想我們在那個"},{"start":15951.195,"end":15976.232,"text":"發生事情的當下他用衛星電話打回到聯管中心那聯管中心所有的單位會把他們目前所有的資訊通通都會告知那個機長最後有機長 催哨者催哨者來檢取的是說當天是當天不是機師是想要降落的吧他為了安全一定是這樣做嘛我都要告訴你們家人自己在上面你一定是要最近的嘛他自己在飛機上這個機長又有那麼重的責任181條人命所有機組員在上面"},{"start":15981.087,"end":16006.553,"text":"他當然希望降落最近的啊所以這個不是機長 不是機師的這個決定嘛這是華航 華航 柏西西做的決定是不是不是那向哲瑋機長 這一定是機長做的決定因為我們的規定 大家從當機長的第一天開始他就知道所有的這個不符合人性 機長那時候做這個決定這個生命安全 沒關係 我跟你講這個是可以查證的 來來 那個機長部長也在現場 我要問"},{"start":16011.38,"end":16026.374,"text":"那時候你們有沒有指示這個基礎委員要折返台灣你們那個那時候的那個通訊這個有辦法查驗嗎跟委員報告一定有通訊嘛對不對這個部分其實是他們有一些討論有些討論對有些討論就是"},{"start":16030.333,"end":16043.85,"text":"給建應該是這樣講機長依據第三條他可以做所有的處理那過程中是有一些討論航管單位有給建議聯管單位我們相關資料是可以公開的資料嗎我們調查完會來公開到底是機長做的"},{"start":16047.615,"end":16065.921,"text":"是機師本身做的這個決定還是OCC做的這個決定 聯管中心的這個要對全民的要有一個交代 好不好另外一個很嚴重的其實啦 飛安是非常嚴肅的而且規定非常嚴格的你美國的FAA美國聯邦航空條例裡面 讓我們看一下如果雙引擎的這個飛機發生有一個引擎壞掉了它是明定 你要選擇最近的嘛"},{"start":16075.31,"end":16093.608,"text":"所以你就違反這個規定啊下面這個更明確了你不能夠憑這些因素就沒有在最近的機場降落三大理由這次華航全部都違背了三個都違背了第一個你們現在的講法是說我的燃油的油量是夠的啊"},{"start":16095.469,"end":16124.268,"text":"他說你要從最近的先降落他不能夠因為說你的燃油的量是過的你就要往更遠的地方更遠的地方飛第二個除了乘客安全以外的所有的安排就是乘客安全是最優先啦因為最急迫嘛對不對第三個你不能夠為了修復或者是修復你現在可能說回到台灣可能修復成本比較比較低欸修復成本華航的成本比那個人命還還重要嗎哪一個排在前面"},{"start":16125.623,"end":16134.014,"text":"所以就違反了這三個規定所以今天我們做第一個請一個禮拜大概調查要多久會出來"},{"start":16136.745,"end":16163.216,"text":"剛剛有提到就是我們會因為整個完整的報告因為它還有發動機的故障問題所以航務的部分我們會有一個初步報告我們一個月會提出來一個月喔能不能再快一點點這兩個很重要第一個當然是要追查清楚真相第二個更重要這種事情絕對不能再發生甚至你以後就是一定要貫徹要貫徹跟美國這個FAA這個標準要是一致的好不好能不能再快一點點你什麼時候再給我"},{"start":16164.696,"end":16188.884,"text":"不是給我啦 給所有的交通委員會給我們一個月 因為剛剛有講到的很多資料我們都要去處理 我們也不是只看華航的資料那所以說是不是給我們一個月 初步一個月內要公開透明然後絕對不要犯同樣的錯誤 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝張其凱委員接下來邱若驊委員執行"},{"start":16198.136,"end":16207.366,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席請陳士凱部長還有台鐵的吳代理董事長好 我們吳代董事長委員好"},{"start":16213.171,"end":16242.03,"text":"部長好部長本席過去在113、114的年度預算提案以及過去4月23台鐵的專案報告中都有多次要求台鐵來研議看我們第一線的執行人員是否要佩戴密錄器那以強化勤務的安全還有事後釐清責任有一個畫面可以來作為依據那本席在今年的3月24號那也收到台鐵的回覆指出在114年第一次車班公司協商會議決議中出席代表全數不同意購買"},{"start":16243.311,"end":16261.917,"text":"那本案還會繼續溝通研議嘛那所以本席在本月的7號也就台鐵的回文內容提出質詢那本席今天就該提請教部長然後還有我們代理董事長首先先問請教部長您贊成台鐵第一線執行人員佩戴密錄器嗎"},{"start":16262.862,"end":16287.513,"text":"如果是站在保障員工執行的安全的部分我當然是贊成啦但是工會那邊有不一樣的思考他們也考量到說同仁的隱私或者說他執行過程當中不希望透過公司透過這個密錄器來做類似懲處那部長我們先繼續看下去根據台鐵提供給本席的資料我們可以看到應該要調查的人數是1139人那實際調查人數是900人那我們看到調查結果"},{"start":16291.075,"end":16309.687,"text":"有56%的人認為執行時應該佩戴密錄器57%的人認為應該要統一來公發那超過六成的員工不反對使用密錄器部長從台鐵的調查資料我們可以看到超過一半的員工都是贊成佩戴密錄器的而且六成以上不反對嘛"},{"start":16310.347,"end":16327.198,"text":"那既然有那麼多員工他明確都表示支持那為什麼在協商會議上呢那麼多代表他是全數來做反對是哪一個環節出了問題還是有落差與基層的聲音有落差工會當時怎麼說我是不是請台鐵先回答一下"},{"start":16330.601,"end":16351.562,"text":"主要問題出現在我們的使用規則裡面有一條我們請部長繼續看下去就是使用規章的部分那部長您看到你覺得最有問題的是哪一點我想如果就剛剛的說法應該是全程錄影的這個部分他們應該是會有意見"},{"start":16352.462,"end":16381.202,"text":"沒錯 這就是引發反對聲音的主因那上一次馮總經理也說到這一點就是全城要開啟讓所有代表都有意見就是有人質疑說隱私被侵犯了那上廁所的時候是不是錄影也要開著所以不同意購買部長您認為這一點它合理嗎如果考量到例如說上廁所的時候那當然這是非常不合理所以為什麼會有那麼僵化跟死板的規定為什麼一定要全城來做錄影呢"},{"start":16383.054,"end":16404.41,"text":"這個我們可以來討論啦好不好今天委員報告齁這個中間其實大家討論很多齁剛剛提到如果說是上廁所那當然這個當然是一定要關掉就不會去要求公司要求說你上廁所都要打開不會但是如果全程你在執勤的期間我們會希望他全程的開路為什麼呢"},{"start":16405.211,"end":16422.348,"text":"第一個我們不希望未來如果有什麼事情被斷章取義就截斷一部分這真的我覺得我認為這其實是保護同仁要不然到時候你只有一個畫面你說啊前面我們是確實啊這個密錄器應該是要保障安全的工具啊不是變成壓力的來源那部長還有"},{"start":16424.35,"end":16447.168,"text":"代理董事長 那其實在其他部門 密錄器的使用已經 早就行之有年啦不只是 我們看到 可以看到消防機關還有財政部 還有地方的社會局都有建制 規範但是我們跟委員報告因為我們跟第一 剛講這些大概都第一線的同仁跟那個 一般我們的用戶人接觸比較頻繁所以在台鐵沒有辦法來做事 情況開啟嗎"},{"start":16449.03,"end":16462.021,"text":"到目前至少我覺得我認為應該是這個應該我覺得應該還要繼續那什麼時候會再召開下一次的會議再做討論呢就是針對不要那麼一切全程都要錄影我們盡快再找先生跟他們溝通一下"},{"start":16463.254,"end":16481.9,"text":"報告委員未來如果要在開會討論我們會針對一些情境一些情境排除的部分我們來列入也就是說更人性化你在執勤的過程當中我們希望全程都要錄影但是裡面有一些情境例如說我們剛才所提到上廁所上洗手間這個部分我們就是可以關掉"},{"start":16482.58,"end":16499.567,"text":"但是當你面對客人的時候在第一線面對客人在工作的時候為了保護自己我們還是希望他開啟我們就是說這個前提是在他們在執行在第一線在第一線執行的時候才做使用對沒有錯OK好那可以先請對朝這個方向來調整我相信大家接受度會相對高一些"},{"start":16500.027,"end":16515.558,"text":"OK好那總經理和我們的代理董事長可以先請回座休息那本席接下來我們看到在這個月17號的時候台鐵他頻繁發生掉車掉車的意外然後還有幽靈列車的問題那本席也有向預安會"},{"start":16516.358,"end":16538.413,"text":"反映這個問題是否該介入調查那剛好藉這個機會也讓部長您了解那最近台鐵的事故頻傳我們可以看到短短四個月內就發生七起不當的停車事件五個月內也發生了七起吊車意外那請問這個雙七這個雙七的問題看起來不是偶發的事件那台鐵有沒有提出改善"},{"start":16539.745,"end":16559.653,"text":"當然啦 針對這些事情不斷在檢討啦那我們也看得出來說有大部分的案例是因為我們的同仁沒有依照這個SOP 相關的SOP的規定下去做當你沒有依照SOP當然就容易出意外所以是人為的問題嘛人為的問題 人為的問題那部長 現在還要給您看一段影片 我們先來看影片"},{"start":16560.939,"end":16573.42,"text":"來看一下我們到站列車,317那就是他現在位置,等一下他到站之後,他這317會不會變幽靈列車好我們看一下他會不會變幽靈列車,先來看"},{"start":16577.362,"end":16591.878,"text":"說不見了一股、二股、三股、四股、五股、六股、一股還有車,還有車不見了,那他不是到車頭站沒了喔他還要去調度到那個基地喔沒了,就這樣"},{"start":16593.168,"end":16607.275,"text":"好部長您有看到嗎明明就是列車還在月台可是在這個監視畫面中我們沒有看到任何訊號他沒有顯示在這個監視畫面中那這邊也請我們林信德主委保護委員"},{"start":16609.058,"end":16624.606,"text":"這個案例我聽台鐵公司有在說明這位值班的副站長他應該要理解實際的狀況但是他不理解然後還錄了影片給大家一個錯誤的訊息我認為這個是所以這個都是站長的問題嗎不是這個到了他終點站到了終點站本來他那個車號就是會消失"},{"start":16632.891,"end":16647.62,"text":"就是行之永延一直都是這樣做的好那我這邊也請教主委那確實是這樣的情況嗎因為上一次本行有請主委說這是不是應該要來做調查我們有請台鐵提供資料現在詳細資料還沒到我們這裡"},{"start":16649.741,"end":16672.8,"text":"所以台鐵的詳細資料還沒有到運安會嗎?那運安會是什麼時候開始起動調查?就剛剛台鐵所說明的它是有一點類似像假信號資料事實上它不是真正實行但是我們還希望它的資料是數位性的所以現在台鐵說是因為這樣的情況所以就運安會就不用調查了嗎?不是還是會調查嗎?還是會調查我們還是還沒有考慮要不要立案因為它資料還沒有完全齊全"},{"start":16673.735,"end":16701.456,"text":"所以剛才在我們台鐵的說明這個也是人為的問題嗎?不是系統出現錯誤嗎?包委員這個系統的設定長年來都是這樣設定但是錄影片的這一位先生是他不了解這個狀況那如果是一般的民眾不了解這個狀況我們可以接受如果說這位先生不了解狀況那是不是教育訓練出現了問題?我認為這個人的教育訓練應該是有問題我認為台鐵應該要懲處喔事實上軌道比賽我們有EP盤"},{"start":16702.216,"end":16713.642,"text":"是那會不會針對這位這位員工來做懲處我們會再加強訓練會再加強訓練了解我們的系統整個運作的一個所以他今天不了解這個系統你們就讓他上工啊"},{"start":16715.778,"end":16741.885,"text":"沒有 他應該是要了解他我們這個部分也會詳細的去對他做輔導我認為除了訓練之外這位同仁在台鐵裡面這麼多年的時間不了解這個狀況還錄影片讓社會誤導社會對台鐵這件事情的誤解我認為這位員工台鐵要好好的輔導以外那就是台鐵本身就有很大的問題嘛"},{"start":16743.803,"end":16756.858,"text":"因為它在安全管理上面本來就是要系統化跟常態化還有標準化那為什麼今天會有這位這位員工他不了解情況他還把影片傳到傳到網路上那他明明就在第一線他應該要了解情況的啊"},{"start":16760.68,"end":16788.934,"text":"報告委員我再說明稍微清楚一點這個是我們的TID系統就是車輛的列車資訊顯示的系統那它會跟我們車站的這個車站的一個顯示板是連動的所以因為它到終點站所以到站了這個列車就會消失掉因為避免旅客還看到那一班車還在還認為它還在營運它已經到站了那但是我們的安全"},{"start":16789.835,"end":16799.756,"text":"絕對的安全是我們的CP盤就是我們的所以這位副站長他其實應該總經理您說了那麼多那其實就是台鐵現在內部還是存在著問題啦很大的問題啦"},{"start":16801.363,"end":16819.877,"text":"沒有 這個我們會詳細的再去了解就剛才部長也提到 本席今天也讓部長了解那請在督促開帖這件事情上系統沒問題啦這件事情上是人的誤解所以又是人為的問題嘛 是人的誤解這還有管理上面出了問題嘛這個我們來檢討 好 謝謝部長謝謝委員好 謝謝邱若驊委員現在請邱志維委員執行"},{"start":16835.134,"end":16844.994,"text":"好 謝主席有請交通部陳部長民航局何局長好 交通部陳部長還有民航局何局長華航高董事長好 華航高董事長"},{"start":16849.494,"end":16875.727,"text":"第一個問題想請教三位上個會期就是十月份曾經質詢針對高雄小港機場是不是用charter的方式能夠飛歐美用charter然後我希望說你們在今年的暑假charter可以正式來上路結果你們回答給我什麼毫無用心你們回答的內容我不曉得是回的是民航局回的還是華航回的還是交通部回的"},{"start":16876.883,"end":16895.736,"text":"完全是模糊空泛虛隱故事然後沒有回答我問題的核心也沒有任何承諾完全忽略這個南部人的這個旅行的權益我問局長這個330可以降777能不能降可以787能不能降可以350能不能降"},{"start":16902.5,"end":16921.364,"text":"三八零能不能降?不行好 三八零例外啦 三八零在桃園也比較少所有機型 當然機型 非歐美都可以降我請你非評估 非一個chart你給我虛運故事 給我良年就說明你完全不重視南台灣的旅客的權益嘛我不相信說 華航沒有這個運能"},{"start":16927.15,"end":16945.581,"text":"我們的南部從高雄這個屏東嘉義還有有時候都要往桃園一到早的這個高鐵還趕不上還要提早一點去過夜你如果有charter你試看看運能怎麼樣嘛你連charter你都不願意去試何議長你的答覆是什麼"},{"start":16947.365,"end":16972.399,"text":"這個其實我們這個議題已經跟華航長榮新宇已經多次溝通可是他們對於這個部分其實還是你們要有一些你們要主管機關你們要有政策性的引導嘛第一個他在乎成本第二個在乎他的運能第三個他有沒有相關的這個飛行機可以飛航東南亞那麼多轉機客我不相信沒有客源"},{"start":16974.332,"end":17003.881,"text":"我不是叫你做這個路徑航班勒是用chart勒你連chart你都不願意試那高層是怎樣那個民航局找你談過幾次這一段我不是那麼的清楚但是我真的沒有運能我的飛機真的是不夠的桃園可以增加松山可以增加為什麼南部不能增加你做這個宏觀調控嘛沒有說旗下運能你可以增加為什麼這個高雄不能增加沒有這個道理嘛"},{"start":17004.827,"end":17010.919,"text":"你這完全沒有重視南部人這個旅行的權益部長你說說吧 部長"},{"start":17012.812,"end":17041.192,"text":"現在華航的這個飛機確實是相對比較吃緊啦齁但是我們也許你把他我來小港起降用chart先試飛看看看看結果怎麼樣您所指示的齁我們要用政策引導這個我同意啦齁所以這個部分我們跟華航以外就是長榮的部分我知道長榮的這個運量運能比較有餘裕我們從成果來看啦是我安全是原地踏步狗肺火車我是狗肺飛飛機啊不是狗肺我狗肺飛機啊"},{"start":17043.835,"end":17061.59,"text":"難不能就當二等公民嗎你說沒有運能 運能是你們自己要去調控的民進黨局要負責 主管機關你要負責這個政策協調啊結果我質詢我質詢你 結果你兩點不到一百次就給我這種回顧這個我覺得民進黨局沒有負起該負的責任"},{"start":17071.414,"end":17100.206,"text":"沒有善盡照顧南台灣這個民眾是搭機的權益南台灣變成二等公民部長你再說一下報告員我也覺得不應該給南台灣的民眾有這樣子的感覺所以民航局其實最近我也交代民航局要更努力的讓高雄機場的航班跟航線必須要增加那來考慮到說我們南部民眾的需求我們盡量短航程的部分我們快速增加"},{"start":17100.946,"end":17127.408,"text":"長航程這部分我們想辦法還要增加 長航程已經回到疫情大概百分之九十八 其實我們都密切注意啦我們要求是說不用坐車勞動 人家要坐到高鐵然後我再到這個長航班對不對 長航班飛機又要搭十五六個小時我要還要在對面前面過一夜如果我這個一早就可以去小港西港搭飛機那不是很方便嗎對 所以我們要朝這個方向來努力但是你要有時間表 你要有具體的成果不是說你們努力 努力的結果就是原力踏步"},{"start":17129.939,"end":17157.022,"text":"你要有一個明確時間表我是要求chart欸我不是叫你定期航班欸每次這個高雄相機問我說為什麼我們飛到桃園去為什麼桃園可以降這個大型的飛機為什麼不能降為什麼不能飛歐美你說聯航它也是經過成年轉那也是小飛機啊那也是轉機那跟新型的轉機是不是沒有什麼不一樣只是說它是同一家航空是轉機"},{"start":17159.728,"end":17185.148,"text":"聯航是不是七月七月份不是那沒有意義啊我從小港也可以可以到到成田也可以搭其他航空公司轉機到歐美嘛一樣的意思嘛是啊是這個喔這個我講喔有政府去做事不是有政府會會會虛擬故事有政府在做事不是在虛擬故事是來這個啊出去過三十秒啦來高鐵高鐵那個"},{"start":17190.022,"end":17208.076,"text":"鄭董事長來我跟部長啊都常常我是每天搭高鐵我搭了13年的高鐵每天在高鐵上三個半小時你去過日本日本在高鐵上是禁止打一個行動電話"},{"start":17209.693,"end":17238.047,"text":"你知道嗎這個我不曉得日本不能打電話不管是這個高鐵或者是他們的這個公共運輸巴士都不能講行動電話他們也自我要求他們也沒有法律約束對不對他們變成一個國民一個基本的素養不要太自恃影響別人高鐵日本的高鐵很多對不對每一個共同的標準就是說你高鐵你如果要講話"},{"start":17239.261,"end":17263.26,"text":"第一個 你自己內部的自我限縮第二個 別人的這個壓力第三個 馬上有人去查處所以他最多只是在車間 車廂跟車廂中間有一個這個電話 這個打電話的一個小小的空間基本上在車廂裡面是禁止通電話的那現在是這樣子雖然我們有廣播 有一些標示"},{"start":17264.349,"end":17273.517,"text":"但是沒有嚴格的去取締 也沒有去宣導 只是用罐頭去宣導開擴音的 用視訊的 電話大聲講電話的 幾乎都是這樣在高鐵上面運行 你不能讓它忍耐幾分鐘 最多一個半小時"},{"start":17288.137,"end":17313.744,"text":"你不要傷你不要損害到其他旅客的權益這個你如果短時間做不到你應該可以要求我們的這個呃乘務人員包括列師長加強對成功的宣導或者高密度的繼續繼續宣傳而不是在高鐵框上廣播都是賣你們這個什麼這個什麼這個名產名產的什麼紀念品那個沒重要嘛"},{"start":17316.229,"end":17333.293,"text":"我們現在有供應哪一個縣市的民產外貨沒數第一個安全性最重要準時到第二個不要過站不停第三個服務品質讓人家搭高鐵是一個很舒適的感覺安全的感覺你不是要賣東西所以我說"},{"start":17337.944,"end":17350.681,"text":"可是鄭董事長你也在高利福很久你也到日本非常久的時間我知道日本人他們很重視這個別人的感受所以他絕對不會說電話在車廂裡面鄭董事長你會看我怎麼樣"},{"start":17357.662,"end":17375.316,"text":"委員講的沒錯 我們希望說給提供車廂裡面一個安靜的環境事實上我們現在是沒有強制要求規定說在車廂裡面不能講電話但是我們都是希望大家都能夠盡量就不要在裡面講"},{"start":17375.996,"end":17393.458,"text":"那也許是說剛才委員提到的說開視訊啊或者是把那個speaker打開啦這個的話呢我們的這個組員看到一定被完全制止的那委員講的也是提醒我們我們會持續的朝這方面加強我們的巡檢我們列車長也好我們的服務人員"},{"start":17394.039,"end":17415.647,"text":"那麼就多這一方面的看 也許如果有看到這個有大聲講話的我們就一定會制止 我們主動會制止他們來維護我們這個行政決定不是主動 更積極的去如何降低車廂裡面的噪音因為我們每天都要戴耳罩 都要戴耳塞因為那個已經對這個旅客的權益造成很嚴重的影響"},{"start":17417.728,"end":17431.335,"text":"這個不能只是宣導而已 不能柔性宣導而已要拿出更積極的作為能夠讓這個車廂吵鬧 車廂的噪音能夠降低好 謝謝 謝謝部長 各位辛苦了好 謝謝邱志偉委員現在請黃建斌委員執行"},{"start":17446.174,"end":17458.884,"text":"謝謝主席我們有請呃陳部長跟台鐵代理的吳董事長好交通部陳部長還有五代董事長委員好"},{"start":17460.602,"end":17478.514,"text":"部長好 董事長好兩位好 針對今天的專案報告本席要特別針對我們台鐵的票價調整的部分來持續跟專案繼續來溝通我們記得去年0403強震之後我們造成花東交通觀光嚴重的衝擊"},{"start":17479.975,"end":17498.267,"text":"那觀光旅宿業更是一落千丈那後來又接著幾個颱風嘛那造成了花東地區雪上加霜我想本席也不斷地跟我們中央來呼籲一定要看到我們東部人目前的困境那不能在東部人現在這麼辛苦的時候我們又來調漲台鐵的票價"},{"start":17500.709,"end":17521.423,"text":"那因此本市在去年也跟在地法院兩度的來提案要求我們中央必須在我們東部的整個在還沒有恢復之前要動長這個東部幹線的這個票價那未來台鐵票價合理化的方案也應該考慮到我們花東運輸的特殊性來做調整那"},{"start":17522.472,"end":17540.137,"text":"提案當時也在我們委員會通過那後來部長去年我們在去年十月份的時候也來承諾說未來春節之前台鐵票價不會漲這部分我們要給予部長肯定那也謝謝部長體恤到東部的特殊情況不過很遺憾強森到現在因為接下來還有颱風的陸續來襲"},{"start":17542.538,"end":17566.588,"text":"許多花東地區的這個交通跟我們的各個觀光都還在復原當中那現在中央我們核定的台北的新票價對東部來講非常的不公平為什麼我要這樣講台東到台北的票價那以自強號來說就漲了300塊那這對很多外出的學子北漂的工作的這些人來說年輕人來說都是非常沉重的負擔尤其我們台北到台東的自強號票價"},{"start":17568.309,"end":17589.355,"text":"幾乎跟台北到高雄是一樣的不過其實必須要講的是說我們西部幹線裡面你有台鐵以外還有高鐵高速公路還有客運我們有很多的選擇那我們台東人除了昂貴的飛機票以外其實大眾運輸就剩下台鐵而已那"},{"start":17590.78,"end":17605.771,"text":"這個台鐵還可能是因為好雨或大或颱風他就可能會停掉就可能會又停掉那為什麼我們跟西部復旦一樣高額的票價可是沒有相同平等的這個對待這個東部人真的不是二等公民"},{"start":17606.519,"end":17629.097,"text":"那本期在票調漲之前是多次的透過諮詢跟會議我們就要求中央說必須要來動長東部幹線的票價如果說真的要調漲也必須要研擬花東居民的這個專屬的優惠那先前我跟部長還有國發會主委諮詢的時候特別提到說我們可以有一個花東基金的部分可以專款專用來補貼那也獲得部長還有國發會主委正面的回應"},{"start":17630.358,"end":17648.487,"text":"上個禮拜在總質詢的時候也跟我們總院長親自來質詢他也答應本席說會盡快研議花東居民專屬優惠票價的部分不過我們在今天的專案報告裡面有關花東優惠票價的方案只有簡單的幾句話帶過完全沒有具體的期程跟內容"},{"start":17649.167,"end":17671.48,"text":"那前兩天新聞有說會給予花東加倍的點數優惠那這個我們後面再談我想這個根本就是杯水車薪因此本席要請教部長所謂到底具體的方案是什麼那你能不能在新票價上路之前就實施這個花東的這個優惠票價來減少花東居民的交通負擔"},{"start":17672.3,"end":17699.405,"text":"我希望的目標也是在6月23號調漲票價的同時花東的整體的優惠方案能夠同時上線那不過這個部分是牽涉到整個系統要改系統的問題那我們希望能夠跟得上我們希望能夠跟得上所以我們朝這個目標在努力跟委員報告你們具體的方案具體的方案跟委員報告這個還需要給台鐵一段時間來研擬跟研議大概在5月"},{"start":17701.125,"end":17726.4,"text":"5月30號以前 提出方案因為其實本席很 那什麼叫點數優惠因為其實部長還有董事長 那個很多人其實像我就沒有台鐵的會員那我怎麼樣獲得點數優惠另外還有台中很多長輩其實他也常常在坐火車那長輩他可能連手機都不太會用你要怎麼就要去用這些優惠"},{"start":17727.1,"end":17750.448,"text":"沒有手機的也可以加入會員這個我們會想辦法啦在整體方案提出來之前所有委員所提到的這些問題我們都會想辦法來解決那還是要鼓勵花東的民眾盡量加入會員因為台鐵的會員其實有蠻多的優惠那那個會員的點數可以直接折換成票價可以折換成票價讓他的票價可以降低"},{"start":17751.85,"end":17778.49,"text":"部長 我想未來在整個票價調整政策上面真的要給花東的居民一些合理的優惠因為真的交通屬性不一樣我聽到其他的委員在質詢的時候我都人家都在說隔天 說回兩天我們還在講台鐵票價我們就知道整個落差性是很大我想交通部其實也可以邀請我們國發會就本席是一直提到的花東基金 花東基金找國發會也好 找台東縣政府 花東縣政府我們三個一起來談"},{"start":17779.23,"end":17792.975,"text":"報告委員 這個部分我們也會去拜託花東基金的部分 國發會的部分來幫我們啦就是台鐵 不應該讓台鐵 因為對台鐵來說 它營運是很重要本期建議說我們要比照離島建設的精神 其實花東的交通跟離島其實差不多情況"},{"start":17803.823,"end":17828.615,"text":"部長你之前也去過嘛 你也了解嘛他的特別性就是就是這條運輸道路而已那所以我想能夠召集這些大家來坐下來談說看怎麼樣不管是在交通上 在產業上 運輸上 甚至觀光上我們怎麼來協助那我想這個部分還要請部長還有董事長那邊盡快的將方案提出來那也希望再次呼籲東部的屬性真的很特別"},{"start":17829.778,"end":17854.586,"text":"我們雖然住的比較遠 我們的人比較少但是我們一樣都是這個國家的一份住 希望大家可以體諒因為我們台鐵有地遠地簡以台北到台東距離比較遠所以它的漲幅是比較低的平均是28但台東的漲幅只有19%那未來我們還會透過這個會員的優惠的方案給台鐵 給台東的鄉親更多的優惠"},{"start":17855.687,"end":17870.651,"text":"謝謝部長也謝謝我們董事長好謝謝主席好謝謝黃建斌委員現在李昆城委員李昆城委員李昆城委員不在現在請王美惠委員執行主席我們請保定好陳部長"},{"start":17885.962,"end":17904.468,"text":"董事長 你好 先生好董事長在這裡 我要延續之前跟你們談到的 咖啡汁開車站的問題因為我覺得長久以來北省如果回到什麼問題就是找民意代表應該找民意代表是越找越方便不是越找越沒方便這樣就笑死人了"},{"start":17913.01,"end":17917.171,"text":"在這個過程當中,我那時候跟你們討論的時候,你們也說我們要找一個會館,找一個會館的時候,我們覺得開會,要不然會館也要去看開會,另外開會所以在這個過程當中,也有提出你們的意見你們說,我也說,我們是應該給這個事大,還是身心沒方便的人"},{"start":17942.739,"end":17944.261,"text":"會方便 沒錯不是如果不方便那天去會館的時候聽你們講講 經費也有問題啦要做房子的電算 也有問題啦 沒錯"},{"start":17958.116,"end":17967.458,"text":"我們應該是要解決問題,不是要做新問題出來不要說他來不及代表定情,太無稀罷了我們在那個車站,自己車站,我們也知道說看到這裡的市長、這裡的百姓坐車回來,有後站要去請站,請站要去後站的方便,這樣我們"},{"start":17983.761,"end":17990.929,"text":"台鐵跟探險跟中央 你都沒去想到坐車的人的方便所以在這個過程 我聽出你們說去看治療 讓我的答案是這樣說實在 我跟你們說台鐵跟高鐵 沒怪沒命賭啦"},{"start":18006.585,"end":18008.387,"text":"高鐵是一天一天,時間也不會慢,每天要給班次,如果年齡這樣的時候,他就發現說,這站有人坐,我們就要給班次,又要坐"},{"start":18021.522,"end":18022.943,"text":"結果我們台鐵的 我覺得 我的要求應該是沒有過分的 北京府應該剛才我們的審判人員也來報告這個問題你認為 他說四個月 要來改變這個天橋的鐵所以這個電腦沒辦法"},{"start":18047.542,"end":18047.742,"text":"報告保護員"},{"start":18071.638,"end":18087.027,"text":"你講的這個部分,對他們來說,便利來說很重要啦所以這個部分,當然我們保護的立場就是要做,但是安全我們也要考量喔,當然喔,我們一定安全,但是我們要有那個負責的態度,跟公家或是在外面要等候的人"},{"start":18093.911,"end":18103.459,"text":"安全 沒錯 這安全說實在 你看 像三位你也知道 安全的重要性我正在說結論啦 一定有很多問題但是 交通不好好 還是代替好 我們做回來解決問題重點是要讓民眾更安全 更便利的感覺啦這個部分我們要來做 我覺得說 這個聽出來 你有經過頭的人啦"},{"start":18122.754,"end":18127.6,"text":"因為我們做工作不可以一直說這不可以做這不可以做為了安全我阿彌陀佛也知道為了安全這安全一定要顧我們來解決問題解決問題是最重要的要解決"},{"start":18142.006,"end":18149.913,"text":"不用聽你們的解說我是要有問題要怎麼去解決才有問題再來補充 我也說聽到你的解說這樣我可以接受我們也希望要趕緊做再來剛才我說過去的問題在長久以來過去的13座"},{"start":18168.147,"end":18186.175,"text":"可以讓人家說服務也好在這個過程當中我也說有需要替我們南部、我們嘉義來撐出我們的班次在這個過程當中嘉義要來到台中、要來到台北搭直達車整天登陸路才一班而已所以在這個過程當中我也勿忘說"},{"start":18197.287,"end":18209.133,"text":"可以讓大家共享有這個平民的溝通的時候可以有很多直達車在嘉義泰坡來使用啦 沒錯嘉義市在泰坡坐高鐵的"},{"start":18217.017,"end":18225.682,"text":"要來嘉義嘉義要來台北跟一班直達車六點五十四分的在這裡我們也不保證跟我們的董事長可以願意讓南部更方便要來台北找親戚也好要來台北看背也好可以讓他們有直達車來交通、來坐你認為"},{"start":18246.505,"end":18271.285,"text":"這可不可以改善一下來補充你回答補充議員這個補充我們來拜託國體公司來研究一下看班次怎麼調整來比較方便因為補充跟董事長在這裡我也替我們教育的人一個拜託跟要求就是說等過以來差不多在"},{"start":18272.947,"end":18287.07,"text":"台南車也好 嘉義車也好 大家也知道那一幫直達車就是六點五十七分而已所以在這個過程很階段的 可以在创動營里面你這營里面的情緒到現在都沒有改變到我們也希望可以給那一幫因為溝通對每一個做生意也好"},{"start":18299.873,"end":18319.047,"text":"要上班也好 都非常重要當時聽你討論的 回答一下 來委員報告 重點是這台車是很好啦但是我們經過過去的研究咖椅要去台北或北上的 最要緊是班車比較多所以我們以前也有做過咖椅後的一台車但是我們發現一台車去"},{"start":18330.249,"end":18337.496,"text":"起床後 很多人都要去市場 但是我們現在有辦直達車我知道 在4月14日有接17班在這個過程 我就是想當時拜託"},{"start":18350.47,"end":18354.311,"text":"我們有時候不要想到利益,不要想到錢錢,來方便家裡的人,要坐車的人,可以給一本直達車出來我相信你們有心要做,這沒困難啦,因為"},{"start":18368.835,"end":18376.281,"text":"這有這個需要 我知道啊 有的要去討論 要去新疆討論 要去基地嘛新疆有時候要去辦公室走路 我現在的意思是說可以有多一百人出來 加二九台北的像六點五十七這樣 六點五十七 因為你們都坐摸摸嘛"},{"start":18393.035,"end":18400.538,"text":"所以你們都不會改嘛現在我就是說 我們不要想說 啊 坐一半一半是不是白天六星期 有觀光機 有要來台北也好 要來台北也好可以多坐一半來坐這樣啦我們來研議看看 因為我覺得說這個班次 因為我知道國體的"},{"start":18417.243,"end":18422.865,"text":"一分 兩分 又不一樣啦這是做準時的溝通啦希望我們補充跟當事長來研議一下因為我感覺這個要求長久以來對自己 大家百姓的希望和期待啦好 拜託"},{"start":18441.084,"end":18467.202,"text":"好 謝謝王美惠委員那接下來鄭天才委員執行好 交通部陳部長"},{"start":18474.932,"end":18485.727,"text":"好 部長辛苦了委員好這個今天的主題這個鐵路安全事件這個部分就台鐵而言這個113年1月到"},{"start":18489.249,"end":18510.582,"text":"今年的3月台鐵共發生了5件重大的行車事故52件一般的行車事故1173件的異常事件這個部分是相當高的一個比例件數是相當高 尤其是現在"},{"start":18513.004,"end":18533.045,"text":"這個科技這麼發達,然後這個應該是更為精進才對但是卻發生,當然有一部分是相關因為這個這個地點的關係那我們看這個以今年來講啊這個一到三月就一件"},{"start":18535.149,"end":18560.715,"text":"這比跟跟去年的事件這比例算算也算多了一般行車事故也是一樣尤其是異常事件三個月就212件所以是相當高是需要去加強的去檢討那這個我們看這個就往花蓮台東的來看基本上是土石流這是這個"},{"start":18564.744,"end":18587.14,"text":"這個整個地形地理的關係所以這個部分講到這個我們要坐火車要去花蓮台東不管是從台北出發或是從台南高雄出發確實都是有除了票價之外這些這種因為"},{"start":18591.601,"end":18616.268,"text":"地形地的關係就會造成這個還好有時候這個有一次是沒有發生任何的傷亡這個是這是一個我們要特別的所以鐵路法事實上都有規定鐵道局應該要負責什麼然後台鐵公司應該要負責什麼然後這些檢討去精進去改變"},{"start":18621.049,"end":18649.349,"text":"這個部分這個要去加油了好不好好我們還是把重點放在後面大家現在花蓮台東的鄉親還是關心這個六月馬上要到了馬上明天就五月了這個我們已經提了很多次不只是我好幾位委員都提了"},{"start":18651.009,"end":18678.248,"text":"像台北到花蓮調漲32.51%相當高啊高雄到台東調漲34.41%因為沒有其他期待啊尤其是尤其是這個有了蘇花改還沒有蘇花安的情況之下就靠這個火車"},{"start":18679.841,"end":18708.901,"text":"然後 部長也很清楚嘛 從台中這個中橫也是 對不對還沒通嘛 對不對只好往花蓮 往台北啦不是往台北 就是往高雄啊是這樣的一個情形 所以這個因為剛才又提到系統既然有系統的問題 更要早一點決定啊"},{"start":18710.148,"end":18738.972,"text":"對不對更要早一點決定才不會影響到系統所以這個部分部長這個交給台鐵公司去處理是不對的我建議就是要由交通部來對不對也涉及到他營運的成本各方面他當然他當然是很捨不得對不對這是當然的嘛"},{"start":18740.647,"end":18756.278,"text":"所以還是要有交通部交通部來處理那交通部沒有別的方式嘛怎麼樣去找裁員嘛沒有別的方式就怎麼樣去裁員不是你自己編列預算補貼就是從"},{"start":18760.775,"end":18783.078,"text":"我們建議的比照這個離島建設基金從花東基金來去補貼方向給你都有啦就是去跟國發會談啊跟地方政府談啊因為有一部分地方政府可以支持的花東基金因為他有分配嘛部長可以嗎"},{"start":18784.287,"end":18799.254,"text":"可以 我們也會找國發會一起來談這個問題對 要盡快談 這個是對台鐵來說是最有幫助的所以這個部分要趕快去處理 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝鄭天才委員 現在請李博義委員執行"},{"start":18822.938,"end":18837.772,"text":"辛苦 我們請陳部長好 交通部陳部長民航局何局長好 民航局何局長鐵道局陳副局長還有中華航空好 高董事長委員好"},{"start":18838.786,"end":18856.975,"text":"部長辛苦先感謝你幾樣事情第一個高鐵接高雄捷運連通道那鐵道局這邊已經在高鐵公司這邊已經在評估從原本的6加7個月那部長指示之後縮短為5加5個月在這邊先感謝你"},{"start":18858.336,"end":18877.87,"text":"請殺該殺可能會是一筆費用但是我覺得對於高雄市民的整個需求來講的話非常的需要這個也請交通部繼續努力第二個感謝你第二件事情就是有關於小港機場爭取雙走道飛機來高雄小港機場的事這是我佈局的第一步"},{"start":18878.47,"end":18906.49,"text":"那也感謝部長也很快的這樣在半年內做好了這樣的調度那確實華航也把飛機調來了我的布局第二步是什麼呢其實雙走道飛機現在過去都要777或者是這個380才可以飛歐美澳那現在的350跟787都可以飛歐美澳結果華航聽你的話聽一半他調來高雄調什麼來"},{"start":18907.751,"end":18933.412,"text":"董事長,你調哪一架飛機來高雄?目前是調330來,我給你看一下,這個是最新的澳洲剛放復活節,然後他們有一個廉價剛好有一個行程,來跟我分享這個行程的感受他從高雄飛大阪"},{"start":18935.115,"end":18941.845,"text":"飛A330他的窗戶就這樣刮刮的很厲害我就不得不好奇去查了一下這一台A330的機鈴多久"},{"start":18946.424,"end":18964.092,"text":"應該是19年左右對,快20年啦那我也跟你查了,整個華航機隊平均的機齡大概也不會到20年啦所以部長你聽懂我在講什麼嗎?華航配合啦,但是掉了一台老的來啦第二個,A350現在平均機齡7年"},{"start":18965.413,"end":18987.747,"text":"大部分都還是放在桃園跟這個松山所以我們還是在爭取我布局的第二步當部長你又政策指示下來之後那華航把A350調來之後華航高雄就可以開始安排歐美澳了就是剛邱志偉委員那麼生氣民航局都沒有好好的做這些政策的督導"},{"start":18988.427,"end":19009.025,"text":"沒有好好的把高雄小港機場整個南部的旅客的福利放在前面的時候所以難怪人家那麼生氣那董事長有沒有看到新聞說現在美國有一些波音中國訂的波音中國不交機有黃昌有沒有評估要買"},{"start":19012.386,"end":19026.08,"text":"部長你認為華航可不可以來研議一下針對美國採購波音科技報告委員這個是比較專業的問題但是華航確實是可以評估看看但我所知道華航目前也有一些交機的計畫對不對"},{"start":19027.701,"end":19042.94,"text":"基本上沒有防焦機計畫那些我知道那我是說你現在看到中美這個關稅貿易戰在即嘛那已經有這個波音客機可能本來要別人的訂單我們有沒有考慮評估可以先拿過來目前那個737 MAX是我們不要的"},{"start":19043.72,"end":19067.446,"text":"737我們不要,那有沒有787那有787我們有掌握,大概有11架,可是到目前為止它的交期都還沒有定出來好,如果中國有棄單,我是鼓勵華航趕快評估把787也買過來部長這個也可以做一下政策我們來追蹤,如果那個機型是我們要的,然後剛好有可以交機交給我們,我們當然就來爭取如果我們交機的時程可以往前拉,那當然是好事好,謝謝"},{"start":19068.206,"end":19091.459,"text":"那因為時間有限最後我針對這個男子的台鐵立體化這邊來做一個詢問那交通部的可行性研究原本是在今年必須要出來那是不是遇到什麼狀況是不是台積電對是不是要增加對台積電的高雄廠的衝擊評估大概什麼時候會把這個可行性評估出來報告委員這個可行性研究應該是高雄市政府"},{"start":19092.139,"end":19120.588,"text":"是高雄市政府在辦高雄市政府現在針對台積電他可能我們要多設一個廠多設一個台鐵的站在台積電的廠區旁邊那所以這一個評估會稍後在今年底出來那我們會繼續來跟交通部來爭取我們一定會來支持就是說要增加這個站他可以放到他的可行性評估裡面可以納進來然後我們一起來討論交通部來協助如果有這個需求我們當然就朝這個方向下去努力"},{"start":19120.948,"end":19143.797,"text":"最後我們最緊張的其實還是高雄的捷運紫縣這個捷運紫縣其實目前雖然已經在交通部那我們希望在之後的這個之後的這些可能性評估已經出來那之後綜合規劃等等的我們還是要加緊速度持續跟鐵道局 持續跟交通部來做這些聯繫好 這個我們來努力 謝謝委員"},{"start":19147.898,"end":19174.457,"text":"好 謝謝李博義委員接下來楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員 楊瓊英委員不在現在游皓委員執行謝謝召委 還有請部長好 我們交通部陳部長"},{"start":19177.366,"end":19183.973,"text":"那也有請一下台鐵公司代理董事長吳代董事長"},{"start":19190.416,"end":19209.349,"text":"其實在南投在上次這個交通委員會還有我們的考察其實許多事情其實還是也感謝交通部對於南投的幫忙那很多事項的話也都有逐一的來協助落實跟包括經費的提供也是對交通部表達感謝"},{"start":19210.289,"end":19229.736,"text":"那在特別請就是代理董事長的時候其實也就是要在追蹤就是上一次有在會議上有提到在積極支線就是在目前預計可以完工的時間期程那時候有提到希望能夠加快"},{"start":19230.276,"end":19246.454,"text":"在今年年底還能夠到車程的部分能夠來做完工那時候再評估是有這個機會那我想請教一下那目前上次提出到現在時隔一個月那這個演藝的進度如何謝謝"},{"start":19247.695,"end":19266.677,"text":"跟委員報告這確實回去有再找台鐵同仁再了解現在看起來還是有他的困難度不過我想我們會再努力我們就幾個環節再去看看可不可以再縮短一點好 那盡可能來協助完整那總是希望能夠在"},{"start":19267.518,"end":19278.966,"text":"就是今年年底明年南投燈會到時候在開始的時候那大家來南投還可以剛好重新再來振興這個我們集集支線這條觀光路線的景氣是好 謝謝"},{"start":19282.642,"end":19296.334,"text":"那接著就叫部長就是目前來講這個川普的貿易戰的這個部分啊那對於我們南投縣還受影響的企業家數我從縣府也調資料在1150家相關這262家都是受到衝擊"},{"start":19303.76,"end":19325.976,"text":"那目前來講交通部也在25號有開了產業座談因應關稅的一個會議啊那會議中的結論跟訴求我這邊也都有看到但是目前來講在美國對關稅直接充其是在生產端跟消費端在運輸則是在兩者之間最重要的一個支撐角色那本行要救救那在目前"},{"start":19326.696,"end":19346.885,"text":"行政院所規劃的4100億他並沒有直接支援在這些運輸或是在這個直接在廠家的部分那這樣子要怎麼樣來去改善或是報告委員目前我們有觀察整體的運量不管是海運或者是空運受到的影響到目前為止看起來並不大"},{"start":19347.705,"end":19374.192,"text":"那未來或許會受到比較大的影響那以過去的經驗其實我們對於航空業者或者是說航運業者船運業者的部分他們自己也會去做一些調控那目前我們跟他們座談的過程當中他們所提出的需求是希望我們可以增加一些彈性例如說他要調整航班的時候我們盡量快速的配合他或者他調整航程的時候我們盡量快速配合他那這個部分我們密切跟他們做聯繫"},{"start":19376.292,"end":19391.662,"text":"如果真的有需要的時候我們會再提出其他的方案沒關係那到時候方案再跟本席跟本委員會再提供那同樣的就在於這個將近在7月底即將到期到州談判的一個結果"},{"start":19392.262,"end":19404.815,"text":"那所以說現在在許多業界尤其在我們南投縣許多受影響的企業家就擔心到時候六月中到七月初會爆發這個擠丹草那目前來講請教一下部內或行政室這邊預計要怎麼解決這個擠丹草"},{"start":19408.247,"end":19426.913,"text":"報告委員我們航港局其實有一個因應對策的會議包含這個平穩的機制其實我們也都有在開會我們持續在開會所以如果真的有急單來的時候我們去調配拜託國籍的航商可以幫忙去調配船艙的部分提供艙位的部分這個我們會來協調"},{"start":19427.973,"end":19442.968,"text":"這個那目前已經事前溝通嗎還是已經就是預計會去這麼溝通我們目前都持續在做溝通那會議也持續固定有在開但是目前變化還沒來等變化來的時候就會很積極的趕快去處理本席要表示說其實防範"},{"start":19443.708,"end":19459.658,"text":"其實這個很明顯的可以預期說到時候時間點到的時候其實現在許多產業跟企業他們本身就已經心急如焚那所以說到時候這個吉丹草如果一來的時候提早做好因應有報告委員5月6號航港局就會來召開會議這個部分我們會提早因應好 謝謝"},{"start":19460.518,"end":19488.377,"text":"那再來就是在昨天的話我們大家都知道這個西班牙大停電那這個電網的部分不管是極端氣候還是說找不出原因但是在目前台灣很明顯的就要遇到5月17號河山廠第二機組就要停役了那就直接就交部長那如果發生這種大停電的情況之下那在台鐵的部分的運輸上是否有任何的備援方案"},{"start":19488.777,"end":19505.275,"text":"包括我們的台鐵的廠站他都有備援方案也會有發電機也有不斷電系統尤其是在這個行控系統一定要做到不斷電所以不斷電系統都有好那這個不斷電系統的話大概電力可以維持幾小時4個小時吧所以4個小時之後的話就沒電了"},{"start":19506.292,"end":19522.852,"text":"我們還有發電機我們先讓它不斷電先維持至少4個小時但是4個小時之內我們應該很快速就會啟動發電機那過去的話對於這樣子的一個如果大停電的一個情況之下有做過任何的一個形式的演練嗎?多久一次?我們最近3月提案也有"},{"start":19523.888,"end":19551.509,"text":"包委員 我們每季都會有提案演習所以我們最近在三月份一到三月就有做過一次提案演習那這個演習的話是針對就是停電的一個情況沒有 停電的部分我們會在後續的這個提案演習裡面也把這個腳本劇本把它納進去對 因為其實我們看到西班牙會發生這個情況那同樣的那本席要直接再作問就是那在河山停役之後的話"},{"start":19552.149,"end":19556.557,"text":"目前對於台鐵的供電來講有受到什麼樣的衝擊嗎"},{"start":19558.707,"end":19585.81,"text":"報告委員這個河山廠它是影響的是整體的供電的量跟台鐵沒有直接的關係目前我們看到台鐵那邊的備載容量其實每一天都至少有百分之十幾以上所以看起來供電的狀況還可以而且我所瞭解河山廠目前的供電量佔整體的供電量很像比例沒有很高所以台鐵那邊應該要提高到是全國整體供電的風險"},{"start":19587.091,"end":19615.182,"text":"就是全國整體供電的一個情況所以說這個部分來講同樣的也創造了因為像西班牙這樣子無預警的電網失衡那其實就有可能會讓任何突發狀況有可能發生的時候那如果像現在來講的話台鐵的話在電力的話它的變電力是4個小時那像這樣子的話耗製的部分或是閘門閘道的部分也同樣就在4個小時內有這樣子的一個供電措施嗎"},{"start":19616.138,"end":19640.917,"text":"對 我們不斷電的鋪設都是這個樣子 廠站的部分那如果說 所以說這樣子換一個角度講的話就是目前來講 假如遇到大停電或是天災人禍台鐵還能夠營運的話 就大致上除了發電機之外 就只剩下四個小時嘛正常的話廠站的部分啦 如果以路線來講的話以路線來講 如果真的整體停電 路線上沒有電 當然車子無法運行"},{"start":19641.625,"end":19659.611,"text":"那疏散過去也有多久演練一次疏散這種方案疏散是不是三個月你們都會每一季都有演練那是以單點還是區域還是整體全國看腳本我們也有以場戰為主然後也有配合震災或是風災區域的一個聯合演練都會"},{"start":19660.591,"end":19679.591,"text":"那沒關係 那防範未然啦 因為時間有限那因為如果說發生大停跌或是天災人禍的時候那全國的交通運輸還是要由部長這邊來去主政那如果說以四個小時的一個備援電力來講的話那後面用發電機如果沒有電的情況之下那等於是一個鐵路系統就已經是癱瘓了"},{"start":19680.572,"end":19700.29,"text":"那這樣子的話不管是在天災或是戰死的話那其實在交通上以及人員的疏散上其實就是一個很大的挑戰那同樣的是在各種的一個演習演練那他目前來講以前所沿用的演練計畫相信都是比較區塊的但是本席還是希望在這個集會討論之後能夠把"},{"start":19702.372,"end":19730.422,"text":"各種的演練的可能性或是包括在劇本腳本的部分也能夠把它放大因為我們看到西班牙他有辦法全國大停電未來台灣如果又全國大停電那這樣子影響的先不管說產業上受到的衝擊那其實在民眾在交通上面的疏散跟安全就已經是一大挑戰那我們反反未然也希望說部長這邊能夠責任相關單位來做更完善的演練好沒問題謝謝"},{"start":19734.25,"end":19743.164,"text":"謝謝遊浩委員 樓庭委委員 樓庭委委員 樓庭委員不在現在請陳冠廷委員執行"},{"start":19756.314,"end":19773.479,"text":"你好我們請部長好請交通部陳部長跟鐵道局鐵道局陳副局長跟這個國營台灣鐵路部門有限公司好台鐵那個台台鐵吳代董事長"},{"start":19778.257,"end":19802.25,"text":"部長好部長我想應該是今年去年我們都有質詢交通部在院會的時候也有質詢那就是主要是針對我們民雄鐵路高架化的一個進度那我們有在嘉義的民雄也有開過相關的這個座談會還有跟我們嘉義的民眾來討論過那那個時候的時程是跟我們我們去年的時候要跟我們講的時程是如同我們現在圖面上所講的113年8月來這個"},{"start":19806.332,"end":19823.389,"text":"經費審議報告然後14年5月臨時鐵軌決標開工然後14年12月主體工程決標開工那目標他們是當初是定10月份那我想請教部長就是這個月臨時軌開工的進度是否如期10月份是不是可以看到有沒有機會開始看到立柱這個部分"},{"start":19826.45,"end":19844.404,"text":"5月份我們這個開工的部分應該是沒有問題啦我有請鐵道局在5月份臨時軌的部分開工是沒有問題但是整個工程程序有沒有辦法到明年10月嗎臨時軌的開工的進度是不是就跟我們當初規劃的一樣還有10月份是不是有機會開到立柱這樣的部分"},{"start":19847.518,"end":19868.548,"text":"臨時軌這個部分沒有問題啦開工一定是在五月會有做開工的動作那臨時軌有沒有十月當時有講到那個立柱的部分有講到十月嗎這個部分可能要跟委員先做一個說明其實我們這個進度我們一直在跟嘉義縣政府也充分的做溝通特別是在"},{"start":19869.508,"end":19884.247,"text":"民雄站的部分我們也有一個充分的工作在嘉義縣政府也開過三次的會議那當然是整個可能就是說整個主體計畫的部分我們會就是說在"},{"start":19885.789,"end":19907.95,"text":"應該說在今年已經奉政院審核通過之後我們現在在辦主體計畫的招標招完標之後我們才有辦法跟如同委員您所講的有開工跟立柱所以我們現在正在進行主體工程的招標作業"},{"start":19909.071,"end":19935.491,"text":"ok 所以可不可以給我幾個時間點就是你可以再說明大概是幾月幾分因為招標作業並非部長或者是我們局所可以控制是有沒有人來領標然後是不是可以順利的決標等等所以這個部分我們會在今年內盡快的去把這件事情把它給完成"},{"start":19936.672,"end":19955.531,"text":"其實我們先談整個整個總體的這個建設那很多我們的民眾是希望盡快看到這個工程的施作所以他們在這段期間會有相對的不安感所以我們才希望說能夠盡快把至少在這個施作的部分能夠很清楚的跟他們講"},{"start":19956.252,"end":19980.662,"text":"那再來就是我想另外一個部分就是我們之前一直有提到這個橋下的空間或是我們有提到橋下空間它未來以前在台中的時候在台中車站高架後有長達四五年它的橋下空間沒有人撐住那隨便長期使用這個綠色的鐵圍把它圍住那其實非常不美觀而且浪費空間"},{"start":19981.602,"end":19998.463,"text":"所以我們應該要提早規劃在我們現在都還沒有開始之前先把這個東西想好這個部分不知道有沒有什麼樣的回應我來跟委員做一個說明其實這個議題的部分我們也有跟嘉義縣政府做充分的溝通其實這個"},{"start":20000.224,"end":20022.378,"text":"橋下的空間可以做很多元的的運用所以在這個部分可能就是未來就是嘉義縣政府還有鐵路公司等等相關單位可能要進一步的做相關的規劃之後才有辦法然後去定案所以這個部分可能"},{"start":20023.098,"end":20038.593,"text":"未來就針對這個議題的部分可能還要召開相關的平台會議再去做進一步的探討參與方有誰參與方要找誰台鐵公司這問題台鐵公司那我們是不是請台鐵公司來講一下"},{"start":20040.831,"end":20069.146,"text":"我跟委員報告這橋下部分涉及到都市計劃變更那些都市計劃變更目前已經完了現在大概我們在等這個嘉義縣府它發布那後面的話我們大概以多目標來這個方式來申請剛提到底下可能有一些複合式的一些商業機能我們會朝這個方式來做那這部分剛提到我們會今早先來作業那剛提到這可能還要再跟那個縣政府我們再做協調一下"},{"start":20070.126,"end":20095.64,"text":"好 縣政府這邊我們也會來去跟他們接洽就是先做好預備那剛才提到的不管是因為剛才有講到不知道有沒有人會來這個來參與啊然後所以不知道有多少人來參與這個然後才可以開標決標這個都還不太確定但是原則上是五月我們希望在今年可以完成最好因為現在在招標的階段"},{"start":20097.615,"end":20125.603,"text":"報告委員如果招標順利的話如果招標順利的話我們當然就是照原本的時程但是唯一的變數是這個樣子就是招標的廠商如果來的不踴躍或者是無法標出去的話那當然就是另外另外的處理模式所以我們如果這一切順利的話五月招標決標是有可能的那可不可以再麻煩招標如果順利五月是OK的對麻煩協助讓盡可能讓多元一點進來就是也是要有更多人知道不然"},{"start":20127.363,"end":20154.229,"text":"對這個部分可不可以全力協助一下就我們還是希望你不要不要一直說今年啦就盡量這個月能夠解決事就這個月好不好不要拖到明年好不好因為很多民眾就說希望趕快已經看到這已經有開始有在圍起來了所以期望很高所以再麻煩大家好謝謝好謝謝陳冠廷委員吳立華吳立華吳立華委員不在現在請習新穎委員執行"},{"start":20166.454,"end":20169.478,"text":"謝謝主席 本席有請陳部長交通部陳部長"},{"start":20179.025,"end":20192.997,"text":"委員好部長還有我們國城召委以及各位官員大家都辛苦了到這麼晚但是本席也要就為什麼我們每次交通部長來大概都要到兩點以後"},{"start":20194.628,"end":20218.941,"text":"原因應該是因為各縣市我們這個區域立委都為地方要來爭取所以我們交通建設應該是所有建設之首整個帶動區域的發展所以我們交通的很多的部件應該是要超前部署而且也是要能夠評估就是要能夠看到10年20年後"},{"start":20220.362,"end":20237.45,"text":"那本席在這裡要特別感謝我們林昭偉還有部長在這個禮拜一來到新竹來考察那我們新竹高鐵站新竹高鐵站馬上也整個的在規劃西側西側的建設所以整個的不管是"},{"start":20238.51,"end":20263.705,"text":"人的容量車流的容量還有整個的規劃能不能符合10年20年後因為我們交通的建設動輒5年10年甚至十幾年重大建設所以我們在這裡我們還是要特別特別的提醒我們要看到未來的需求而不是現況然後我們稍微那個能夠符合或者是符合"},{"start":20264.705,"end":20284.555,"text":"的承載量多一點點而已但是在整個興建的過程可能就5到10年這5到10年地方的發展又帶動過來所以建好以後好像剛剛好而已最後不久又不夠了所以這一點本席在這邊一開始先特別的提那一天我們到新竹高鐵站有一個"},{"start":20286.215,"end":20311.683,"text":"問題本席在這裡要再特別提一下就是我們新竹高鐵站這個計程車太少這個部分看是不是可以幫我們改善我們這個我們新竹高鐵站的這個乘客人次是等於全國大概第四第五這個前幾名的那但是呢這個計程車人次少當然部長那天來也發現我們的客運"},{"start":20312.583,"end":20325.938,"text":"也幾乎是沒有我們只有接駁車少數的接駁車整個新竹縣也需要有公車完全沒有公車的部分本席在這裡也要特別請命交通部可以來幫忙"},{"start":20328.3,"end":20347.015,"text":"新竹高鐵站的計程車太少所以常常等計程車的人排得很長人家以為最近又有演唱會還是說高鐵站哪一個店賣的東西賣得像我們富航豆漿一樣哇 排得人人龍排得很長所以這一塊部長可不可以協助"},{"start":20348.198,"end":20367.653,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們跟地方政府大家來討論一下看那周圍的計程車的整體提供的量看可不可以增加那另外一方面新竹高鐵簽的嘛他們有簽啦但是量的部分好像也不是我們能夠好來請董事長謝謝委員指教"},{"start":20369.855,"end":20388.471,"text":"那這個有關計程車確實是計程車這部份的排班計程車是由高鐵公司負責來招募那在這個量體方面我想這個委員的建議我們會把它放在心裡請你們一定要來重視因為這個問題很久了希望能夠盡快解決我會希望鼓勵更多計程車進來是的 謝謝再來就是我們"},{"start":20394.256,"end":20405.703,"text":"新竹監理站人力不足的本席在這裡也要特別請命就是我們新竹監理站它整個的業務量桃竹竹苗整個涵蓋那這個罰單最近"},{"start":20410.125,"end":20431.875,"text":"也一直暴增那業務量一直增加但人力一直不足所以這一塊本席今天也特別在這裡來代為請命好那接著接著接著本席要就我們這個新豐火車站我們秀一下投影片新豐火車站部長可能有個螺絲鬆掉了本席要特別的"},{"start":20433.135,"end":20452.76,"text":"請部長看一下在這個投影片裡面我們新豐站每天搭車人次是相對這麼多站裡面最高但是對後班次是零區間快的班次最少結果總班次也是最少人數最多這是不是應該要調整"},{"start":20455.681,"end":20478.411,"text":"所以這一塊部長可以幫忙吧您看到這數字我想您應該也感受很深所以我們衛星風站這裡我們可以增加我們對號班次還有區間快的班次可以嗎報告委員如果他的人數是比較多的那應該理論上班次應該是會增加的所以這個部分我們在6月會6月26號會做調整會增加"},{"start":20481.652,"end":20494.657,"text":"那我們真的要拜託那最後部長本席請教一下我們全國的鄉鎮市所謂的鄉全國有大概146個鄉"},{"start":20497.659,"end":20516.798,"text":"最大的鄉是哪一個鄉?您知道嗎?胡口鄉就在新竹縣的胡口鄉那表示他的人數是全國146個鄉裡面最多的那所以胡口鄉他剛好又是在我們台一線上而且也是我們中山高經過的"},{"start":20517.799,"end":20542.982,"text":"那這個部長就是您每次下了舞陽之後你要回台中開始塞車的大概就是湖口快到了就是這個鄉所以我們知道舞陽的這個拓關工程已經在規劃而且很快會施工但是我們是不是可以新增湖口第二交流道這個部分地方的說明會以及各種評估也已經送到"},{"start":20543.703,"end":20557.241,"text":"我們中央 已經送到中央所以本席在這裡要特別的來請命因為我們虎口鄉呢它整個腹地有新竹工業區也就現在的新竹產業園區還有鳳山工業區"},{"start":20560.265,"end":20581.472,"text":"而且現在未來有整個富邦人壽的大型物流中心BOO案還有全家便利商店的全溫城大型物流中心BOO案很多大型企業的進駐所以大量的工作聚會大型的企業員工開車通勤物流貨運的配送整個的交通非常的需求"},{"start":20581.992,"end":20602.254,"text":"所以我們知道五陽高架拓寬之後現在塞得很嚴重五陽高架拓寬之後可能可以稍微疏解但是未來10年20年我們還是需要急速的現在就來超前部署我們的虎口第二交流道那本席在這裡也要請命請部長這裡可以支持好嗎"},{"start":20607.872,"end":20623.606,"text":"我們4月剛做完如果說地方已經做完可行性研究以後他被尋釋報到高空局有個委員會他被審議這個案子如果說確定是可行的話那後續高空局就會接續做相關的規劃設計"},{"start":20624.807,"end":20648.638,"text":"是 所以本席是想請部長這裡可以瞭解您也是感受到虎口塞車 您感同身受所以請部長這邊來支持 可以嗎好謝謝部長謝謝委員好 謝謝習新穎委員王宏威 王宏威 王宏威委員不在林德胡 林德胡 林德胡委員不在"},{"start":20650.115,"end":20670.896,"text":"葉延芝 葉延芝 葉延芝委員不在吳宗憲 吳宗憲 吳宗憲委員不在蘇清前 蘇清前 蘇清前委員不在羅明才 羅明才 羅明才委員不在現在請蔡易瑜委員執行"},{"start":20682.028,"end":20689.766,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們是有請這個交通部陳部長好陳部長鐵道局現在是副局長陳副局長陳副局長"},{"start":20700.421,"end":20715.64,"text":"好 部長部長基於這個兩年前所頒布的文化藝術講座及促進條例那第15條第一項公有建築物及重大公共工程的新辦因辦理公共藝術營造美學環境"},{"start":20718.303,"end":20736.744,"text":"其辦理經費不得少於該建築物及公共工程造價的1%所以我們嘉義市的鐵路高架化因為嘉義市的鐵路高架化除了在嘉義市之外很大的量體是在嘉義縣的水上鄉包括北回車站以及包括整個車輛基地"},{"start":20737.985,"end":20761.076,"text":"很大的量體在水上鑲那我們也知道說整個嘉義的鐵路高架化總經費334億中央負擔了276億那所以在於基於我剛剛說的這一個文化的一個促進條例那他應該要核定公共藝術最後核定了2.53億我覺得這2.53億事實上比總預算的334億還要少"},{"start":20766.703,"end":20782.19,"text":"這個第一個問題啦不過已經核定了就核定了那我現在要講在接下來的部分那所以接下來的部分我們來看下一頁那這下一頁就把這樣的一個公共藝術的一個設置計畫我們看到在嘉義車站有480萬那嘉義車站的風雨走廊4500萬那以及我剛剛講的在於北回車站1200萬"},{"start":20790.345,"end":20813.73,"text":"水上車輛基地6400萬那有這樣的一個公共藝術的一個規劃這些也都沒問題那現在問題來了我要講嘉義車站跟北回車站這兩個嘉義車站咧是228事件當年有我們嘉義市最有名的畫家陳澄波那以及像潘木之這樣很多的社會賢達他們在北回在嘉義車站這邊"},{"start":20814.946,"end":20836.081,"text":"然後開始抗議然後抗議整個228事件最後演變到了三二事件也就是在水上機場的大幅的這個軍民的一個這個直接可以說是武裝對峙那甚至當時在水上機場爆發的武裝對峙我們知道了還有所謂空投軍糧給在水上機場的人所以整個228事件發生"},{"start":20841.425,"end":20865.334,"text":"最重大的衝突就是從嘉義的火車站延伸到了水上機場那水上機場就在現在北回車站的正對面所以以這段故事來說我們認為說嘉義我們在於規劃這個鐵路高架化的公共藝術的時候那以及現在我們對於不當遺址我剛講了嘉義火車站以及北回"},{"start":20866.374,"end":20891.461,"text":"機場前面這裡都是屬於不當遺址那我們基於對文化不當遺址的保存我認為鐵道局有責任在於規劃這些公共藝術的時候必須要把這些不當遺址他們當年所發生的元素不管用怎樣的呈現方式要在這兩個地點把這些元素把它放到公共藝術裡面這個有問題嗎"},{"start":20895.214,"end":20919.936,"text":"報告委員您提的這個建議非常好啦我覺得這個歷史的記憶在當地還是必須要做一些呈現畢竟當時發生事情就是交通運具的周邊所發生的這個歷史的印記一直在那個地方所以我們目前正在研議這件事情那剛好委員現在有這個建議我們就把它現在在研議中對所以我現在其實我要趕快把"},{"start":20920.916,"end":20947.37,"text":"這個訊息要給你們因為接下來立法院文化委員會也正在審理不當遺址的一個保存的一個條例所以未來這個相關的法案是要整併在一起的那你把它整併在一起看的話整個228事件在嘉義發生最嚴重的這個軍民衝突的一個地點那水上這個車輛基地或者是這個嘉義車站都是應該要慎重考量的"},{"start":20948.13,"end":20973.11,"text":"所以在講這個部長我覺得你這樣一個善意的回應我就很感動我覺得我要把整個這個故事講完因為嘉義在228事件是好多我們自己很讚的這些社會的賢達在228事件犧牲就包括陳澄波好多人都在這個事件犧牲所以在嘉義過去曾經有一個爭議就是我們要興建228紀念碑"},{"start":20973.931,"end":20998.233,"text":"那228紀念碑咧原本他就把它要用在228公園228公園當時有一個銅像叫做無縫銅像那後來有一個鄒族嘉義鄒族原住民鄒族的年輕人把無縫銅像把它拉倒後然後決心說在這個銅像這裡把它改成228紀念碑那後來沒有在沒有在我剛講的地點他就選擇在彌陀路跟忠義路的地點叫做228紀念碑"},{"start":20999.554,"end":21025.104,"text":"大家都說那裡交通車流量多所以那一個紀念碑放在那個地點又會影響到交通所以後來曾經辦了一個iVoting的一個票選iVoting票選結果你知道哪裡是票選第一名嗎有三個地點叫228紀念碑原址第二個就是228紀念公園第三個就是嘉義火車站這三個地點然後讓大家票選票選出來嘉義火車站第一名大家認為應該是人啊"},{"start":21026.024,"end":21054.204,"text":"大家認為說228的元素在嘉義火車站那就是所有人用iVoting投出來的票選第一名主要很可惜那個票選是當年這個嘉義市政府肯認的一個票選活動可是後來沒有執行沒有照iVoting執行看起來有壓力那我覺得整個社會一直在改變現在大家對於轉型正義的想像已經不是那麼會有那麼大的壓力那我們應該要勇敢就去執行"},{"start":21055.545,"end":21072.9,"text":"這個地方過去發生這樣的歷史,我們就是要用公共藝術把它呈現出來,然後在公共藝術的背後用一些文字上的一個載述,可以讓我們後代的子孫都知道過去在我們家裡車頭,在我們家裡機場發生的事情,這都要讓大家知道,好不好好,這個我們一定會做好,謝謝,感謝好,謝謝蔡易瑜委員"},{"start":21079.858,"end":21089.138,"text":"林月琴 林月琴 林月琴委員不在鄭振前 鄭振前 鄭振前委員不在好現在"},{"start":21090.595,"end":21116.135,"text":"本席因為配合大家時間已晚所以本席就提出書面的這些執行因為要配合大家那另外另外一個我特別交通部我們林師長跟黃師長我本席非常重視的就是我們行人專用實相這個政策那這個政策啊我看起來我們當然已經發現問題"},{"start":21118.177,"end":21133.927,"text":"但是確實也有做可是我看所有資料做了比較符合我們的政策的只有台北市那其他六都看起來這個政策雖好但是推行"},{"start":21134.987,"end":21163.948,"text":"緩慢所以我要拜託部長督促一下這對行人安全跟人車征道的政策是有關所以我要拜託部長要督促兩位師長這個要多宣導讓地方政府配合去做好的政策大家中央地方要一併去推行所以我看所有資料不要製造一國兩制宣導是不足"},{"start":21164.549,"end":21164.971,"text":"有些人"},{"start":21166.26,"end":21194.36,"text":"知道這個人行道是怎麼樣走有些人是不知道所以這個就先導不足拜託黃師長跟林師長在部長的督促情況之下這個部分要把他納入重點這要拜託我們部長一下好今天登記執行的委員經已發言完畢做以下的決定一報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":21196.055,"end":21213.609,"text":"另外 林德虎委員 黃建豪委員 蘇清晴委員吳宗憲委員 邱振軍委員 林國成委員 所提書面執行列入紀錄並刊登公報委員執行中要求提供相關"},{"start":21215.11,"end":21237.346,"text":"書面資料或未及答覆部分請交通部及相關機關盡速以書面答覆所以今天謝謝各位各單位的列席的官員還有我們媒體朋友我們本日會議結束現在上會謝謝大家感謝大家謝謝"},{"start":21247.005,"end":21270.623,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16632","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16632","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db001fad9b8cd413af9b5fa2f296a93534f7d7f547ae197440a67b5eeab3ab724c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-30T08:29:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:56:00+08:00","duration":15961,"影片長度":"04:26:01","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 - 12:56:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1992.3103437500001,"end":1993.6097187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1994.7403437500002,"end":1995.4659687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1995.6853437500001,"end":1997.7272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1998.9928437500002,"end":1999.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1999.0603437500001,"end":2002.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2002.9415937500003,"end":2004.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2004.9665937500001,"end":2039.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2040.0328437500002,"end":2063.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2067.55596875,"end":2069.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2069.73284375,"end":2069.7497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2069.7497187500003,"end":2069.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2069.80034375,"end":2070.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2070.81284375,"end":2070.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2070.82971875,"end":2070.8972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2070.8972187500003,"end":2070.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2070.93096875,"end":2071.0997187499997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2071.0997187499997,"end":2071.1334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2071.1334687500002,"end":2071.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2071.16721875,"end":2071.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2071.2684687500005,"end":2071.3190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2071.3190937500003,"end":2071.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2071.35284375,"end":2071.3865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2071.3865937500004,"end":2071.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2071.70721875,"end":2071.7409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2071.7409687500003,"end":2071.8084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2071.8084687500004,"end":2071.9940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2071.9940937500005,"end":2072.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2072.02784375,"end":2083.7559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2084.26221875,"end":2088.0759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2088.3797187500004,"end":2099.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2099.92221875,"end":2112.4434687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2112.7978437500005,"end":2117.7253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2117.75909375,"end":2123.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2123.91846875,"end":2133.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2133.1153437500006,"end":2142.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2143.00409375,"end":2147.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2147.34096875,"end":2153.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2153.66909375,"end":2181.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2181.1415937500005,"end":2181.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2181.2428437500002,"end":2182.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2182.91346875,"end":2191.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2193.27471875,"end":2196.2615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2196.8522187500002,"end":2197.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2197.51034375,"end":2200.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2200.26096875,"end":2211.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2214.60471875,"end":2225.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2226.5184687500005,"end":2231.8340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2238.5840937500006,"end":2240.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2240.64284375,"end":2246.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2246.49846875,"end":2278.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2279.35409375,"end":2286.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2286.1884687500005,"end":2288.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2289.27659375,"end":2292.4997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2292.85409375,"end":2311.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2311.46721875,"end":2327.6503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2328.0722187500005,"end":2353.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2355.22409375,"end":2376.1659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2376.5709687500002,"end":2380.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2380.6209687500004,"end":2387.4890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2387.70846875,"end":2388.3497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2389.21034375,"end":2391.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2391.4040937500004,"end":2396.8378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":2397.29346875,"end":2400.8034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2401.7653437500003,"end":2405.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2412.90284375,"end":2426.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2427.0778437500003,"end":2432.6297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2432.91659375,"end":2449.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2449.5215937500006,"end":2451.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2452.2890937500006,"end":2459.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2459.7647187500006,"end":2475.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2476.36971875,"end":2489.8865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2490.39284375,"end":2500.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2501.37846875,"end":2521.6453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2522.4384687500005,"end":2528.8847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2530.7409687500003,"end":2534.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2538.38534375,"end":2540.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2542.58721875,"end":2543.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2543.44784375,"end":2543.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2544.2578437500006,"end":2544.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2548.93221875,"end":2551.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2551.63221875,"end":2586.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2586.6815937500005,"end":2586.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2586.76596875,"end":2620.8534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2622.01784375,"end":2632.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2632.46346875,"end":2687.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2687.6278437500005,"end":2694.8503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2694.8672187500006,"end":2726.7440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2723.70659375,"end":2723.7234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2723.7234687500004,"end":2723.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2723.80784375,"end":2723.8415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2723.8415937500004,"end":2723.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2727.01409375,"end":2759.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2760.27471875,"end":2764.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2764.5778437500003,"end":2795.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2795.96534375,"end":2799.1715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2806.7653437500003,"end":2808.1659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2808.8240937500004,"end":2824.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2824.6190937500005,"end":2825.9522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2826.44159375,"end":2830.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2830.86284375,"end":2832.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2832.8878437500007,"end":2837.7647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2838.15284375,"end":2844.8184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2845.07159375,"end":2848.4128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2848.9190937500007,"end":2859.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2860.3434687500003,"end":2860.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2861.1365937500004,"end":2863.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2863.70159375,"end":2865.5915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2866.06409375,"end":2866.7390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2867.07659375,"end":2868.8484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2868.9665937500004,"end":2870.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2870.6709687500006,"end":2877.1678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2877.6065937500007,"end":2883.9347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2884.5084687500002,"end":2885.7740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2886.1453437500004,"end":2889.6384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":2890.04346875,"end":2913.0778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2913.66846875,"end":2915.6090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2916.13221875,"end":2918.1065937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2926.39221875,"end":2944.8028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2944.87034375,"end":2946.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2946.4903437500006,"end":2958.1172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2958.2353437500005,"end":2962.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2962.11659375,"end":2964.9347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2965.0359687500004,"end":2986.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2986.7372187500005,"end":2987.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2987.80034375,"end":2989.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2989.3359687500006,"end":2990.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2991.10784375,"end":2998.6003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2998.8028437500006,"end":3005.0128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3005.21534375,"end":3009.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3010.0584687500004,"end":3017.8209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3018.1247187500003,"end":3019.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3019.6434687500005,"end":3033.5147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3033.78471875,"end":3034.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3034.8984687500006,"end":3051.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3051.3347187500003,"end":3051.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3052.70159375,"end":3056.3972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3056.61659375,"end":3057.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3057.7472187500007,"end":3064.4297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3064.6490937500002,"end":3079.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3079.4990937500006,"end":3080.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3081.2878437500003,"end":3090.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3090.72096875,"end":3093.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3093.2353437500005,"end":3099.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3100.0528437500006,"end":3103.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3111.88221875,"end":3131.5078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3131.5753437500007,"end":3195.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3196.67909375,"end":3244.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3245.61659375,"end":3269.9503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3270.57471875,"end":3276.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3288.3947187500007,"end":3306.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3306.36659375,"end":3307.3790937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3307.69971875,"end":3309.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3310.3828437500006,"end":3310.7878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3311.42909375,"end":3315.0740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3315.46221875,"end":3316.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3316.54221875,"end":3318.2634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3318.7697187500007,"end":3319.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3320.64284375,"end":3322.4147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3322.81971875,"end":3323.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3323.8828437500006,"end":3324.6084687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3325.04721875,"end":3325.6209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3326.19471875,"end":3326.8190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3327.22409375,"end":3335.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3335.6784687500003,"end":3341.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3342.04034375,"end":3342.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3343.12034375,"end":3344.7403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3345.36471875,"end":3347.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3347.5584687500004,"end":3350.3259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3350.6972187500005,"end":3356.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3358.1559687500003,"end":3368.4159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3369.10784375,"end":3372.4659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3372.66846875,"end":3373.7147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3373.8497187500006,"end":3378.9122187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3379.48596875,"end":3381.8653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3382.18596875,"end":3386.8097187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3386.9784687500005,"end":3390.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3390.7584687500002,"end":3393.6609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3393.99846875,"end":3396.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3397.32284375,"end":3397.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3398.40284375,"end":3408.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3408.59534375,"end":3412.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3412.39221875,"end":3413.2022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3413.70846875,"end":3418.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3418.93971875,"end":3439.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3440.3709687500004,"end":3444.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3444.55596875,"end":3445.1803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3445.7372187500005,"end":3456.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3456.8240937500004,"end":3457.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3457.70159375,"end":3465.2109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3465.7509687500005,"end":3469.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3469.81784375,"end":3488.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3488.9540937500005,"end":3497.2734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3497.89784375,"end":3499.5684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3500.49659375,"end":3505.6940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3516.4772187500002,"end":3519.8015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3520.56096875,"end":3522.8222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3523.32846875,"end":3523.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3524.52659375,"end":3528.4415937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3528.62721875,"end":3532.1034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3532.49159375,"end":3533.3015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3533.45346875,"end":3534.3478437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3535.7315937500007,"end":3543.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3543.39284375,"end":3544.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3544.7597187500005,"end":3545.4347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3546.0928437500006,"end":3546.8690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3547.4597187500003,"end":3548.5565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3548.87721875,"end":3558.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3558.9178437500004,"end":3560.7909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3561.3478437500007,"end":3579.4209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3580.29846875,"end":3584.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3584.56784375,"end":3589.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3589.93409375,"end":3593.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3594.45659375,"end":3605.8640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3606.3028437500006,"end":3609.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3609.39096875,"end":3612.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3612.5634687500005,"end":3635.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3635.61471875,"end":3666.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3667.1034687500005,"end":3687.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3688.4840937500003,"end":3689.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3689.5134687500004,"end":3690.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3691.11659375,"end":3693.7490937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3693.88409375,"end":3699.5203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3699.62159375,"end":3707.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3707.28284375,"end":3713.4928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3713.5603437500004,"end":3726.4190937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3727.46534375,"end":3729.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3729.4228437500005,"end":3749.0147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3749.2003437500007,"end":3753.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3754.0097187500005,"end":3756.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3756.43971875,"end":3764.4215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3764.64096875,"end":3792.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3792.5859687500006,"end":3795.8428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3795.9440937500003,"end":3796.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3797.2940937500007,"end":3804.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3804.8034687500003,"end":3804.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3805.51221875,"end":3811.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3811.3678437500002,"end":3813.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3814.2872187500006,"end":3875.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3876.50534375,"end":3889.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3889.33034375,"end":3891.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3892.18221875,"end":3893.4815937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3894.0553437500002,"end":3896.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3896.7384687500007,"end":3901.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3901.5478437500005,"end":3909.8165937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3909.90096875,"end":3912.5840937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3913.0734687500008,"end":3914.0859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3914.2715937500006,"end":3916.8703437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3916.88721875,"end":3918.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3918.74346875,"end":3927.8390937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3927.9403437500005,"end":3933.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3933.57659375,"end":3936.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3936.7322187500004,"end":3943.0772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3943.16159375,"end":3944.4609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3945.03471875,"end":3947.1609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3948.4434687500006,"end":3949.6247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3950.5865937500002,"end":3993.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3994.0734687500008,"end":3994.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3994.81596875,"end":3995.5753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3995.6090937500003,"end":4002.2409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4002.4265937500004,"end":4005.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4007.4215937500003,"end":4007.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4008.78846875,"end":4009.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4009.6153437500006,"end":4011.5897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4012.0284687500007,"end":4014.7284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4014.9140937500006,"end":4017.3947187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4017.6815937500005,"end":4021.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4022.10284375,"end":4031.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4036.3115937500006,"end":4036.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4036.76721875,"end":4039.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4039.83846875,"end":4040.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4040.96909375,"end":4041.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4041.1715937500003,"end":4042.5722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4043.56784375,"end":4051.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4053.1697187500004,"end":4074.1622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4074.43221875,"end":4075.1915937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4075.56284375,"end":4081.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4083.7978437500005,"end":4085.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4086.3290937500005,"end":4088.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4088.7253437500003,"end":4090.7165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4091.23971875,"end":4105.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4107.05159375,"end":4114.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4115.337218750001,"end":4117.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4118.6278437500005,"end":4125.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4125.3778437500005,"end":4126.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4126.93034375,"end":4127.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4127.79096875,"end":4142.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4143.06284375,"end":4144.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4144.9697187500005,"end":4149.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4149.8465937500005,"end":4158.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4158.925343749999,"end":4167.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4168.1728437500005,"end":4174.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4174.669718749999,"end":4194.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4194.599093750001,"end":4206.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4207.93034375,"end":4226.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4228.062218749999,"end":4231.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4231.23471875,"end":4248.734093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4249.51034375,"end":4250.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4251.2822187500005,"end":4251.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4252.159718749999,"end":4258.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4258.55534375,"end":4260.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4260.90096875,"end":4268.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4270.013468749999,"end":4270.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4270.65471875,"end":4285.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4286.50034375,"end":4287.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4287.95159375,"end":4291.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4291.61346875,"end":4303.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4303.51034375,"end":4305.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4305.079718749999,"end":4308.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4308.5897187499995,"end":4311.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4312.57221875,"end":4347.452843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4347.85784375,"end":4373.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4374.48659375,"end":4374.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4375.7353437500005,"end":4379.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4380.139718750001,"end":4383.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4384.13909375,"end":4402.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4411.69596875,"end":4412.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4419.62721875,"end":4425.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4420.3865937499995,"end":4420.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4425.314093749999,"end":4470.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4471.23096875,"end":4472.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4473.1209687499995,"end":4481.001593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4481.64284375,"end":4562.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4562.895968750001,"end":4680.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4681.071593750001,"end":4699.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4700.663468750001,"end":4711.530968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4711.733468750001,"end":4730.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4731.00471875,"end":4764.501593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4765.04159375,"end":4784.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4785.6122187500005,"end":4794.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4795.214093750001,"end":4804.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4805.54159375,"end":4813.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4814.31659375,"end":4818.501593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4818.80534375,"end":4823.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4823.64846875,"end":4830.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4831.03971875,"end":4850.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4850.7665937500005,"end":4873.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4873.9697187500005,"end":4896.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4896.6834687499995,"end":4924.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4925.32034375,"end":4935.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4936.204718749999,"end":4950.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4950.71721875,"end":4953.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4954.37909375,"end":4956.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4956.741593750001,"end":4969.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4970.005343750001,"end":4976.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4977.48096875,"end":4978.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4978.020968750001,"end":4982.796593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4982.999093750001,"end":4986.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4986.593468749999,"end":5009.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5009.22284375,"end":5011.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5011.33221875,"end":5011.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5012.17596875,"end":5015.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5016.00659375,"end":5023.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5023.00971875,"end":5026.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5025.6590937500005,"end":5032.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5033.55659375,"end":5035.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5035.530968749999,"end":5043.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5041.23471875,"end":5066.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5066.88471875,"end":5097.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5089.04159375,"end":5089.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5097.175343750001,"end":5107.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5106.2372187500005,"end":5110.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5108.802218750001,"end":5109.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5110.1522187499995,"end":5110.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5110.725968750001,"end":5147.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5148.0028437500005,"end":5172.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5172.43784375,"end":5208.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5184.95909375,"end":5185.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5208.7528437500005,"end":5238.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5238.33471875,"end":5253.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5254.450343750001,"end":5255.429093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5256.1209687499995,"end":5258.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5271.84846875,"end":5272.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5272.74284375,"end":5274.548468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5276.185343749999,"end":5276.657843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5281.55159375,"end":5282.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5283.34034375,"end":5283.829718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5284.774718750001,"end":5286.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5286.76596875,"end":5289.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5289.8709687499995,"end":5290.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5291.474093750001,"end":5294.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5295.186593750001,"end":5295.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5296.013468749999,"end":5299.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5299.5740937499995,"end":5301.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5301.734093749999,"end":5303.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5303.944718750001,"end":5305.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5305.61534375,"end":5306.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5306.25659375,"end":5307.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5309.091593749999,"end":5310.829718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5310.9647187499995,"end":5311.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5311.70721875,"end":5313.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5314.255343750001,"end":5318.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5318.710343750001,"end":5319.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5320.33034375,"end":5320.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5320.9715937500005,"end":5329.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5329.37534375,"end":5331.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5331.687218749999,"end":5333.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5333.59409375,"end":5333.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5333.93159375,"end":5337.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5338.04909375,"end":5342.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5343.43221875,"end":5345.845343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5346.7059687500005,"end":5347.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5348.44409375,"end":5351.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5352.07221875,"end":5354.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5355.599093750001,"end":5356.544093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5357.0165937500005,"end":5357.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5358.872843749999,"end":5360.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5361.01596875,"end":5363.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5363.5809687500005,"end":5368.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5369.53784375,"end":5370.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5371.579718749999,"end":5372.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5373.30096875,"end":5373.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5374.22909375,"end":5375.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5376.794093750001,"end":5378.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5378.937218749999,"end":5380.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5381.50221875,"end":5381.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5382.21096875,"end":5383.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5383.79721875,"end":5385.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5386.24409375,"end":5387.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5388.032843749999,"end":5390.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5391.272843750001,"end":5393.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5394.58034375,"end":5395.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5395.03596875,"end":5395.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5397.16221875,"end":5399.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5399.237843750001,"end":5400.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5400.790343750001,"end":5403.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5403.979718750001,"end":5404.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5404.587218750001,"end":5406.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5406.747218750001,"end":5412.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5412.7040937500005,"end":5413.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5413.9697187500005,"end":5414.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5415.1678437499995,"end":5416.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5417.26034375,"end":5418.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5418.86346875,"end":5419.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5420.73659375,"end":5422.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5423.942843750001,"end":5426.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5425.309718750001,"end":5441.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5441.96534375,"end":5444.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5445.34034375,"end":5446.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5447.247218750001,"end":5449.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5449.84596875,"end":5450.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5451.651593750001,"end":5452.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5452.917218750001,"end":5453.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5454.30096875,"end":5456.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5456.96721875,"end":5457.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5458.907843749999,"end":5460.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5461.1522187499995,"end":5462.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5463.464093750001,"end":5464.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5464.45971875,"end":5466.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5466.56909375,"end":5468.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5468.577218750001,"end":5472.407843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5472.67784375,"end":5473.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5474.095343749999,"end":5476.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5477.74034375,"end":5478.044093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5479.259093750001,"end":5481.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5482.78596875,"end":5483.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5484.47346875,"end":5486.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5486.73471875,"end":5487.173468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5487.34221875,"end":5489.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5489.940968750001,"end":5490.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5491.69596875,"end":5493.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5494.075343750001,"end":5496.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5496.4715937500005,"end":5497.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5497.956593750001,"end":5498.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5499.39096875,"end":5502.124718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5502.47909375,"end":5503.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5504.4872187500005,"end":5506.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5506.90034375,"end":5508.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5508.840968750001,"end":5510.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5510.96721875,"end":5512.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5513.009093750001,"end":5513.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5513.700968749999,"end":5517.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5518.020968750001,"end":5520.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5521.109093749999,"end":5521.952843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5522.610968749999,"end":5523.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5524.686593750001,"end":5524.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5525.39534375,"end":5527.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5528.50034375,"end":5529.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5531.55471875,"end":5534.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5536.1278437500005,"end":5536.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5538.186593750001,"end":5538.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5538.743468750001,"end":5539.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5539.94159375,"end":5539.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5541.831593750001,"end":5542.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5543.11409375,"end":5543.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5543.704718749999,"end":5543.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5544.43034375,"end":5544.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5545.56096875,"end":5546.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5546.894093750001,"end":5549.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5549.796593749999,"end":5552.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5552.6990937499995,"end":5555.517218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5556.3778437500005,"end":5557.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5559.24659375,"end":5559.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5560.208468750001,"end":5563.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5564.849093750001,"end":5566.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5566.5028437500005,"end":5570.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5571.66659375,"end":5571.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5572.729718750001,"end":5574.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5575.682843750001,"end":5576.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5577.01596875,"end":5579.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5579.39534375,"end":5581.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5581.6903437500005,"end":5583.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5583.968468749999,"end":5584.204718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5585.31846875,"end":5585.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5586.14534375,"end":5586.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5587.394093750001,"end":5588.474093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5589.01409375,"end":5589.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5589.655343750001,"end":5590.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5590.7353437500005,"end":5593.485968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5594.16096875,"end":5594.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5595.05534375,"end":5595.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5595.747218750001,"end":5596.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5597.654093749999,"end":5599.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5600.2528437500005,"end":5601.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5602.530968749999,"end":5604.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5604.927218750001,"end":5606.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5607.458468750001,"end":5607.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5608.622843749999,"end":5609.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5609.50034375,"end":5609.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5611.00221875,"end":5612.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5614.022843750001,"end":5615.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5616.09846875,"end":5617.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5617.5497187500005,"end":5618.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5619.25409375,"end":5621.329718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5622.089093750001,"end":5623.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5623.675343750001,"end":5624.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5625.19409375,"end":5632.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5632.669718749999,"end":5633.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5634.8465937500005,"end":5637.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5638.019093750001,"end":5640.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5641.259093750001,"end":5643.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5643.57096875,"end":5646.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5647.2665937500005,"end":5650.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5650.79346875,"end":5652.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5652.86909375,"end":5653.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5654.21909375,"end":5654.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5655.079718749999,"end":5656.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5656.024718750001,"end":5656.952843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5657.475968750001,"end":5657.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5657.49284375,"end":5658.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5658.94409375,"end":5670.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5670.58784375,"end":5692.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5692.862843750001,"end":5695.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5695.7822187500005,"end":5710.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5711.425343750001,"end":5713.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5713.686593750001,"end":5714.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5714.04096875,"end":5714.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5714.091593749999,"end":5717.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5714.12534375,"end":5714.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5718.698468750001,"end":5722.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5723.59221875,"end":5726.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5726.5790937500005,"end":5727.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5728.46909375,"end":5731.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5732.40096875,"end":5732.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5732.940968750001,"end":5734.544093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5735.11784375,"end":5737.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5737.3622187500005,"end":5739.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5740.349093750001,"end":5743.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5743.3865937499995,"end":5744.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5745.39471875,"end":5749.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5749.815968750001,"end":5752.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5752.769093750001,"end":5753.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5754.10221875,"end":5755.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5756.009093750001,"end":5757.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5769.72846875,"end":5771.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5771.87159375,"end":5772.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5779.347218750001,"end":5779.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5780.44409375,"end":5780.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5781.608468750001,"end":5785.439093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5785.4559687500005,"end":5789.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5790.029093749999,"end":5792.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5792.847218750001,"end":5792.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5792.948468750001,"end":5792.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5792.96534375,"end":5792.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5792.982218749999,"end":5807.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5792.999093750001,"end":5793.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5793.10034375,"end":5793.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5807.477843750001,"end":5824.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5825.12909375,"end":5827.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5828.149718750001,"end":5829.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5829.53346875,"end":5834.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5834.342843750001,"end":5834.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5834.35971875,"end":5835.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5834.9334687499995,"end":5835.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5835.794093750001,"end":5835.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5835.96284375,"end":5836.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5836.013468749999,"end":5836.907843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5837.59971875,"end":5838.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5838.57846875,"end":5844.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5844.82221875,"end":5856.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5855.571593750001,"end":5858.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5857.27596875,"end":5873.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5866.79346875,"end":5870.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5872.682843750001,"end":5877.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5877.357218749999,"end":5878.673468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5879.02784375,"end":5881.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5881.52534375,"end":5893.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5893.6415937500005,"end":5894.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5894.198468750001,"end":5901.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5900.762843750001,"end":5901.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5902.36596875,"end":5907.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5906.702843749999,"end":5910.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5909.87534375,"end":5910.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5912.35596875,"end":5917.249718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5917.41846875,"end":5925.501593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5925.99096875,"end":5926.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5926.294718749999,"end":5926.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5926.32846875,"end":5926.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5926.395968750001,"end":5926.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5926.9697187500005,"end":5929.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5927.44221875,"end":5927.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5929.99034375,"end":5933.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5933.432843750001,"end":5933.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5933.669093750001,"end":5943.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5944.637843750001,"end":5945.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5944.73909375,"end":5946.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5946.882218750001,"end":5950.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5950.4090937500005,"end":5966.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5965.83284375,"end":5970.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5970.54096875,"end":5972.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5972.3465937500005,"end":5972.751593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5973.696593750001,"end":5981.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5981.02034375,"end":6013.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5981.69534375,"end":5983.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5997.608468750001,"end":5997.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5997.96284375,"end":5998.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6004.814093750001,"end":6005.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6014.044718749999,"end":6020.187218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6019.41096875,"end":6021.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6021.09846875,"end":6035.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6033.16409375,"end":6033.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6035.86409375,"end":6036.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6036.2353437500005,"end":6041.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6041.888468749999,"end":6041.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6041.92221875,"end":6042.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6042.0740937499995,"end":6055.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6056.012843750001,"end":6073.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6073.022843750001,"end":6079.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6079.60409375,"end":6084.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6085.1053437499995,"end":6090.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6089.64471875,"end":6091.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6092.20971875,"end":6112.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6112.679093750001,"end":6119.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6112.763468749999,"end":6112.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6114.95721875,"end":6115.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6115.919093750001,"end":6116.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6119.20971875,"end":6121.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6121.8084687499995,"end":6142.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6140.06721875,"end":6140.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6144.134093750001,"end":6153.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6152.0653437500005,"end":6152.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6153.14534375,"end":6154.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6154.967843750001,"end":6159.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6160.300343750001,"end":6172.247843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6172.247843749999,"end":6174.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6174.39096875,"end":6176.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6176.567843750001,"end":6177.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6178.55909375,"end":6181.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6181.866593750001,"end":6182.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6182.1365937499995,"end":6192.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6192.85221875,"end":6206.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6206.55471875,"end":6207.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6208.00596875,"end":6216.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6217.00034375,"end":6226.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6219.3290937500005,"end":6219.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6219.34596875,"end":6219.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6226.38284375,"end":6226.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6226.51784375,"end":6228.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6226.56846875,"end":6226.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6228.6103437500005,"end":6232.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6232.727843750001,"end":6232.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6232.778468750001,"end":6260.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6232.862843750001,"end":6232.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6261.0947187500005,"end":6263.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6265.262843750001,"end":6272.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6269.987843750001,"end":6271.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6272.249093750001,"end":6279.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6279.741593750001,"end":6286.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6286.87971875,"end":6292.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6292.499093750001,"end":6338.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6339.090968750001,"end":6344.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6343.529093749999,"end":6353.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6345.85784375,"end":6346.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6348.220343750001,"end":6348.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6349.99221875,"end":6350.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6350.07659375,"end":6350.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6350.86971875,"end":6350.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6350.8865937499995,"end":6350.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6352.067843750001,"end":6352.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6352.253468750001,"end":6352.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6353.856593750001,"end":6356.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6357.450968749999,"end":6386.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6361.4334687499995,"end":6361.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6361.905968749999,"end":6361.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6369.8709687499995,"end":6369.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6369.9384687500005,"end":6370.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6370.00596875,"end":6370.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6370.107218749999,"end":6370.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6370.124093750001,"end":6370.157843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6374.54534375,"end":6374.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6374.5790937500005,"end":6375.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6380.991593750001,"end":6381.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6386.64471875,"end":6399.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6395.08221875,"end":6396.314093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6400.04346875,"end":6415.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6415.7372187500005,"end":6420.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6420.0740937499995,"end":6425.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6421.94721875,"end":6425.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6425.659718750001,"end":6433.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6426.030968749999,"end":6426.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6433.05096875,"end":6433.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6433.60784375,"end":6435.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6434.45159375,"end":6437.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6438.079718750001,"end":6439.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6440.02034375,"end":6442.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6440.054093750001,"end":6440.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6441.4715937500005,"end":6446.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6447.34409375,"end":6448.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6448.47471875,"end":6449.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6448.84596875,"end":6456.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6450.19596875,"end":6452.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6454.920968750001,"end":6460.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6457.064093750001,"end":6458.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6459.05534375,"end":6460.202843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6460.2197187500005,"end":6461.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6461.8397187499995,"end":6467.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6468.33659375,"end":6470.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6479.997218750001,"end":6482.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6482.8153437500005,"end":6483.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6490.47659375,"end":6504.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6505.529093749999,"end":6506.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6506.710343750001,"end":6506.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6507.4022187499995,"end":6507.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6508.161593750001,"end":6509.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6508.6678437499995,"end":6543.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6543.6834687499995,"end":6583.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6583.84596875,"end":6585.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6586.00596875,"end":6591.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6591.743468750001,"end":6609.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6592.0809687500005,"end":6592.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6605.952218750001,"end":6606.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6606.30659375,"end":6606.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6606.39096875,"end":6606.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6610.00221875,"end":6611.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6610.120343750001,"end":6645.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6619.1990937499995,"end":6619.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6622.304093750001,"end":6623.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6645.43971875,"end":6672.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6655.260968750001,"end":6655.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6658.264718750001,"end":6658.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6673.18221875,"end":6675.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6675.544718749999,"end":6691.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6678.37971875,"end":6678.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6691.7615937499995,"end":6698.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6698.562218749999,"end":6712.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6712.4334687499995,"end":6720.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6721.394093750001,"end":6727.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6727.89096875,"end":6731.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6730.067843750001,"end":6730.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6730.388468749999,"end":6730.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6731.40096875,"end":6732.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6732.734093749999,"end":6736.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6736.7840937500005,"end":6741.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6736.817843750001,"end":6737.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6738.91034375,"end":6739.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6741.66096875,"end":6757.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6745.204718750001,"end":6745.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6757.405343750001,"end":6766.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6766.821593750001,"end":6796.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6796.0322187500005,"end":6796.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6796.52159375,"end":6796.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6796.57221875,"end":6796.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6796.65659375,"end":6796.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6797.280968749999,"end":6802.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6802.579718750001,"end":6818.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6818.155343750001,"end":6821.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6820.264718750001,"end":6827.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6827.757218750001,"end":6847.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6847.80471875,"end":6847.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6847.821593750001,"end":6847.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6847.83846875,"end":6847.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6847.88909375,"end":6847.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6847.9228437500005,"end":6850.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6847.93971875,"end":6848.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6848.108468750001,"end":6848.142218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6850.960343750001,"end":6860.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6860.91659375,"end":6864.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6865.118468750001,"end":6868.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6868.8309687500005,"end":6871.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6871.716593749999,"end":6884.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6884.811593750001,"end":6890.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6888.15284375,"end":6888.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6890.7684687500005,"end":6911.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6902.12534375,"end":6902.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6911.54159375,"end":6914.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6914.798468750001,"end":6922.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6923.21909375,"end":6928.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6928.635968750001,"end":6932.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6932.466593749999,"end":6949.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6935.520968750001,"end":6935.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6935.53784375,"end":6935.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6950.53971875,"end":6958.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6958.47096875,"end":6967.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6965.102843750001,"end":6965.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6967.75221875,"end":6980.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6980.59409375,"end":6983.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6982.5009687500005,"end":7025.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6991.815968750001,"end":6991.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6995.62971875,"end":6997.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6998.700968749999,"end":6999.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6999.86534375,"end":7000.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7025.802218750001,"end":7028.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7028.36721875,"end":7029.227843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7030.679093750001,"end":7031.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7033.69971875,"end":7033.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7033.716593749999,"end":7051.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7041.25971875,"end":7041.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7045.47846875,"end":7045.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7045.529093749999,"end":7045.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7045.7147187499995,"end":7045.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7051.33409375,"end":7052.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7051.5028437500005,"end":7075.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7058.573468750001,"end":7059.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7060.952843750001,"end":7061.3240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7076.12346875,"end":7108.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7108.42221875,"end":7108.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7109.40096875,"end":7112.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7112.4384687500005,"end":7117.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7117.770968750001,"end":7121.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7121.36534375,"end":7121.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7121.382218750001,"end":7123.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7123.98096875,"end":7124.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7125.128468750001,"end":7128.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7133.987843750001,"end":7136.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7137.514718750001,"end":7138.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7143.99471875,"end":7181.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7144.12971875,"end":7144.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7144.14659375,"end":7144.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7144.3153437500005,"end":7144.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7144.450343750001,"end":7144.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7144.60221875,"end":7144.720343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7165.00409375,"end":7165.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7182.58784375,"end":7183.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7184.35971875,"end":7192.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7190.68784375,"end":7194.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7194.19784375,"end":7196.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7195.497218750001,"end":7214.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7206.61784375,"end":7206.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7206.63471875,"end":7207.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7207.022843750001,"end":7207.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7214.12721875,"end":7219.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7219.392218750001,"end":7221.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7219.5272187499995,"end":7219.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7221.48471875,"end":7224.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7224.57284375,"end":7229.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7229.9559687500005,"end":7238.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7235.82846875,"end":7260.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7239.10221875,"end":7239.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7241.16096875,"end":7241.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7241.852843750001,"end":7241.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7243.860968750001,"end":7244.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7244.31659375,"end":7244.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7245.784718750001,"end":7246.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7246.03784375,"end":7246.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7246.32471875,"end":7246.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7247.185343749999,"end":7247.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7247.202218750001,"end":7247.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7252.60221875,"end":7253.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7253.3447187500005,"end":7253.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7256.989718750001,"end":7257.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7259.234093750001,"end":7259.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7259.942843750001,"end":7262.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7261.3603437500005,"end":7264.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7265.528468750001,"end":7281.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7282.2684687500005,"end":7282.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7282.60596875,"end":7284.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7285.069718750001,"end":7307.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7307.26034375,"end":7312.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7313.08221875,"end":7317.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7317.94221875,"end":7324.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7324.84409375,"end":7326.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7326.885968750001,"end":7336.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7335.357218749999,"end":7335.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7336.99409375,"end":7339.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7339.28909375,"end":7339.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7339.626593750001,"end":7345.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7339.69409375,"end":7339.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7342.495343750001,"end":7342.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7342.74846875,"end":7342.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7342.79909375,"end":7342.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7345.499093750001,"end":7361.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7361.78346875,"end":7366.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7366.00221875,"end":7390.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7367.03159375,"end":7368.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7371.030968750001,"end":7372.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7379.046593750001,"end":7379.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7379.0634687500005,"end":7379.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7379.4853437500005,"end":7379.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7383.0965937500005,"end":7383.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7384.581593750001,"end":7384.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7384.59846875,"end":7385.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7386.85971875,"end":7387.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7388.901593750001,"end":7389.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7390.403468750001,"end":7397.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7392.749093750001,"end":7392.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7394.31846875,"end":7394.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7397.524718750001,"end":7421.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7402.51971875,"end":7402.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7415.7665937500005,"end":7415.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7417.859093750001,"end":7418.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7421.419718749999,"end":7421.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7421.45346875,"end":7421.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7421.622218750001,"end":7447.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7422.95534375,"end":7423.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7429.300343750001,"end":7429.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7434.34596875,"end":7434.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7439.91471875,"end":7440.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7445.702843750001,"end":7446.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7446.95159375,"end":7448.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7448.68971875,"end":7461.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7462.780343750001,"end":7465.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7462.814093750001,"end":7463.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7465.733468750001,"end":7466.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7467.404093749999,"end":7469.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7469.64846875,"end":7471.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7471.673468750001,"end":7472.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7473.276593750001,"end":7477.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7475.200343750001,"end":7475.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7476.7528437500005,"end":7476.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7476.786593750001,"end":7477.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7477.46159375,"end":7479.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7480.17846875,"end":7482.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7482.67596875,"end":7491.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7492.46346875,"end":7495.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7496.07471875,"end":7496.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7497.087218750001,"end":7502.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7501.28909375,"end":7502.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7502.892218750001,"end":7533.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7506.58784375,"end":7507.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7509.507218750001,"end":7510.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7514.58659375,"end":7516.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7516.74659375,"end":7518.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7523.665343750001,"end":7524.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7533.790343750001,"end":7533.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7533.925343750001,"end":7534.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7534.026593750001,"end":7549.720343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7541.384093750001,"end":7541.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7543.965968750001,"end":7544.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7544.03346875,"end":7544.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7550.007218750001,"end":7563.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7563.33846875,"end":7563.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7563.72659375,"end":7565.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7565.49846875,"end":7586.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7577.294093750001,"end":7577.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7586.45721875,"end":7614.689093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7604.49659375,"end":7605.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7606.65659375,"end":7609.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7611.48284375,"end":7612.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7613.59221875,"end":7630.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7616.17409375,"end":7616.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7617.10221875,"end":7617.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7630.75409375,"end":7656.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7653.75471875,"end":7655.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7656.319718750001,"end":7658.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7658.41221875,"end":7658.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7658.68221875,"end":7683.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7660.75784375,"end":7660.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7660.774718750001,"end":7661.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7661.16284375,"end":7661.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7668.85784375,"end":7669.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7672.04721875,"end":7672.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7680.5184687500005,"end":7680.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7682.96534375,"end":7683.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7683.25221875,"end":7683.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7683.319718750001,"end":7683.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7683.690968750001,"end":7688.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7685.429093750001,"end":7685.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7685.81721875,"end":7686.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7687.13346875,"end":7687.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7687.167218750001,"end":7687.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7689.05721875,"end":7690.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7691.6728437500005,"end":7696.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7696.5497187500005,"end":7700.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7696.56659375,"end":7696.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7697.54534375,"end":7698.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7699.46909375,"end":7711.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7703.73846875,"end":7704.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7710.454718750001,"end":7715.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7715.16284375,"end":7716.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7716.68159375,"end":7720.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7718.79096875,"end":7718.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7720.7147187499995,"end":7720.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7721.001593750001,"end":7724.376593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7721.052218750001,"end":7721.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7721.06909375,"end":7721.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7721.54159375,"end":7723.110968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7724.69721875,"end":7727.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7727.02596875,"end":7727.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7728.038468750001,"end":7729.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7731.39659375,"end":7733.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7733.48909375,"end":7736.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7736.897843750001,"end":7744.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7739.749718750001,"end":7740.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7743.90096875,"end":7744.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7744.28909375,"end":7754.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7755.25784375,"end":7759.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7759.18971875,"end":7759.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7759.47659375,"end":7768.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7767.23909375,"end":7794.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7768.99409375,"end":7769.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7777.583468750001,"end":7777.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7777.61721875,"end":7778.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7778.005343750001,"end":7778.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7793.91846875,"end":7794.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7794.4247187500005,"end":7794.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7794.509093750001,"end":7800.415343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7800.82034375,"end":7810.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7807.75596875,"end":7809.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7811.36721875,"end":7814.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7814.202218750001,"end":7814.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7814.55659375,"end":7820.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7814.59034375,"end":7814.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7814.894093750001,"end":7815.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7821.10409375,"end":7841.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7841.337218750001,"end":7849.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7848.89721875,"end":7857.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7850.2978437500005,"end":7851.884093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7854.24659375,"end":7854.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7854.972218750001,"end":7855.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7858.161593750001,"end":7884.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7859.0897187499995,"end":7859.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7859.17409375,"end":7859.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7862.78534375,"end":7863.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7864.65846875,"end":7865.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7866.599093750001,"end":7866.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7871.796593750001,"end":7872.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7877.483468750001,"end":7877.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7877.989718750001,"end":7878.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7882.14096875,"end":7882.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7885.00971875,"end":7885.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7886.005343750001,"end":7886.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7889.65034375,"end":7892.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7899.96096875,"end":7902.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7902.930968750001,"end":7903.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7909.88346875,"end":7910.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7910.389718750001,"end":7922.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7917.89909375,"end":7918.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7918.2197187500005,"end":7918.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7923.85596875,"end":7943.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7931.17971875,"end":7931.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7942.823468750001,"end":7954.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7950.872843749999,"end":7951.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7953.06659375,"end":7958.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7958.989718750001,"end":7960.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7961.993468750001,"end":7968.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7966.904093749999,"end":7973.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7972.2197187500005,"end":7972.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7973.87346875,"end":7979.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7978.83471875,"end":8013.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7980.454718750001,"end":7982.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7985.7197187500005,"end":7985.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7992.8240937499995,"end":7993.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8014.120343750001,"end":8025.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8018.69346875,"end":8018.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8018.710343750001,"end":8019.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8019.030968750001,"end":8019.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8019.452843750001,"end":8019.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8025.71346875,"end":8028.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8028.5653437500005,"end":8033.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8033.560343750001,"end":8044.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8043.82034375,"end":8043.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8044.09034375,"end":8044.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8044.88346875,"end":8047.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8048.35971875,"end":8049.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8048.54534375,"end":8054.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8050.23284375,"end":8051.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8052.20721875,"end":8067.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8067.360968750001,"end":8068.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8069.11596875,"end":8069.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8070.14534375,"end":8072.845343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8073.16596875,"end":8111.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8078.59971875,"end":8078.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8082.413468750001,"end":8082.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8083.69596875,"end":8084.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8084.708468750001,"end":8084.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8084.7928437499995,"end":8085.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8085.14721875,"end":8085.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8111.100968750001,"end":8111.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8111.4384687500005,"end":8111.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8111.53971875,"end":8114.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8114.25659375,"end":8117.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8117.96909375,"end":8121.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8122.00221875,"end":8125.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8125.64721875,"end":8126.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8126.74409375,"end":8128.482218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8128.482218750001,"end":8133.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8130.62534375,"end":8132.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8133.966593750001,"end":8133.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8134.28721875,"end":8144.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8140.56471875,"end":8140.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8140.581593750001,"end":8141.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8144.81721875,"end":8144.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8144.850968750001,"end":8145.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8144.935343750001,"end":8144.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8145.1209687499995,"end":8166.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8157.372218750001,"end":8157.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8165.100968750001,"end":8213.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8179.00596875,"end":8179.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8181.4022187499995,"end":8183.376593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8183.376593750001,"end":8183.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8188.13534375,"end":8188.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8188.1522187499995,"end":8189.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8202.42846875,"end":8203.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8213.66721875,"end":8225.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8221.14284375,"end":8221.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8221.159718750001,"end":8221.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8225.93534375,"end":8226.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8226.20534375,"end":8229.040343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8229.293468750002,"end":8242.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8231.402843750002,"end":8231.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8242.270343750002,"end":8261.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8246.809718750003,"end":8247.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8250.539093750001,"end":8251.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8251.382843750001,"end":8251.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8251.534718750001,"end":8251.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8257.32284375,"end":8257.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8258.52096875,"end":8258.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8261.44034375,"end":8263.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8263.48221875,"end":8264.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8265.11909375,"end":8267.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8268.22409375,"end":8269.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8269.87784375,"end":8282.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8282.73659375,"end":8297.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8297.19846875,"end":8297.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8297.468468750001,"end":8309.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8309.51721875,"end":8313.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8309.669093750003,"end":8309.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8313.550343750001,"end":8316.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8317.195343750001,"end":8326.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8326.695968750002,"end":8328.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8328.906593750002,"end":8336.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8336.80409375,"end":8345.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8345.984093750001,"end":8352.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8352.210968750001,"end":8352.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8352.649718750003,"end":8377.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8370.840968750003,"end":8371.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8378.063468750002,"end":8385.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8385.84284375,"end":8398.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8398.836593750002,"end":8401.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8403.207218750002,"end":8404.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8417.09534375,"end":8419.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8426.79846875,"end":8429.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8429.92034375,"end":8430.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8436.315968750001,"end":8436.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8436.957218750002,"end":8437.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8437.902218750001,"end":8441.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8442.32346875,"end":8446.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8446.862843750001,"end":8450.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8450.625968750002,"end":8451.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8452.313468750002,"end":8456.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8456.70096875,"end":8460.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8460.852218750002,"end":8462.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8462.910968750002,"end":8468.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8465.712218750003,"end":8465.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8465.965343750002,"end":8466.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8466.82596875,"end":8467.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8467.028468750003,"end":8467.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8467.281593750002,"end":8467.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8468.42909375,"end":8470.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8471.48346875,"end":8481.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8481.59159375,"end":8482.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8483.414093750001,"end":8484.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8485.40534375,"end":8493.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8493.42096875,"end":8494.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8495.36159375,"end":8496.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8495.395343750002,"end":8496.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8496.84659375,"end":8498.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8497.454093750002,"end":8505.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8499.47909375,"end":8499.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8504.71034375,"end":8505.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8506.296593750001,"end":8509.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8509.28346875,"end":8512.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8513.14784375,"end":8515.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8514.83534375,"end":8525.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8516.472218750001,"end":8517.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8518.024718750003,"end":8518.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8525.14596875,"end":8526.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8526.242843750002,"end":8535.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8536.38471875,"end":8536.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8536.722218750001,"end":8537.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8536.87409375,"end":8537.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8537.66721875,"end":8548.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8548.754093750002,"end":8565.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8565.64596875,"end":8575.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8575.56846875,"end":8581.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8580.664718750002,"end":8580.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8581.20471875,"end":8634.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8588.579093750002,"end":8588.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8588.612843750001,"end":8589.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8589.50721875,"end":8589.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8589.827843750001,"end":8589.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8589.844718750002,"end":8589.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8599.024718750003,"end":8599.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8599.480343750001,"end":8599.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8609.75721875,"end":8609.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8609.976593750001,"end":8610.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8634.090968750003,"end":8634.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8635.238468750002,"end":8637.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8637.145343750002,"end":8658.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8658.812843750002,"end":8659.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8659.69034375,"end":8667.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8663.706593750001,"end":8665.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8667.18284375,"end":8670.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8671.620968750001,"end":8680.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8682.52221875,"end":8683.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8683.382843750001,"end":8683.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8683.83846875,"end":8686.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8686.605968750002,"end":8687.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8687.719718750002,"end":8700.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8701.523468750001,"end":8705.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8705.894093750001,"end":8710.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8709.387218750002,"end":8712.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8712.492218750001,"end":8712.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8713.15034375,"end":8713.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8713.31909375,"end":8717.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8714.46659375,"end":8714.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8715.73221875,"end":8718.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8718.027218750001,"end":8718.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8718.617843750002,"end":8722.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8722.92096875,"end":8731.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8732.691593750002,"end":8758.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8759.25284375,"end":8779.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8779.722218750001,"end":8843.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8844.437843750002,"end":8847.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8847.88034375,"end":8862.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8862.54471875,"end":8872.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8874.15471875,"end":8876.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8877.05721875,"end":8878.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8878.49159375,"end":8890.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8883.469718750002,"end":8883.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8884.16159375,"end":8886.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8890.87784375,"end":8895.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8895.265343750001,"end":8895.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8895.585968750001,"end":8895.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8895.78846875,"end":8907.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8895.92346875,"end":8897.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8898.37034375,"end":8899.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8907.921593750001,"end":8921.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8922.214718750001,"end":8928.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8927.90159375,"end":8931.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8931.462218750003,"end":8931.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8931.495968750001,"end":8931.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8931.74909375,"end":8931.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8931.968468750001,"end":8936.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8936.33909375,"end":8936.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8936.59221875,"end":8952.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8952.94409375,"end":8961.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8961.195968750002,"end":8963.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8963.89596875,"end":8978.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8978.745968750001,"end":8981.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8982.40784375,"end":8985.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8985.22596875,"end":8989.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8989.292843750001,"end":8990.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8990.81159375,"end":8992.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8992.617218750001,"end":8996.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8996.430968750003,"end":8998.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8999.35034375,"end":9000.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9001.223468750002,"end":9006.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9006.066593750002,"end":9045.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9045.570968750002,"end":9060.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9060.640343750001,"end":9061.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9061.484093750001,"end":9062.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9063.070343750001,"end":9063.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9064.21784375,"end":9066.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9066.69846875,"end":9068.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9068.605343750001,"end":9068.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9068.68971875,"end":9083.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9082.155968750001,"end":9082.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9083.590343750002,"end":9092.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9086.15534375,"end":9086.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9086.172218750002,"end":9086.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9086.18909375,"end":9086.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9089.15909375,"end":9089.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9092.36534375,"end":9092.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9093.42846875,"end":9093.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9093.58034375,"end":9094.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9094.42409375,"end":9094.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9094.59284375,"end":9095.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9096.465968750003,"end":9098.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9098.49096875,"end":9101.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9101.91659375,"end":9105.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9102.743468750003,"end":9104.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9104.22846875,"end":9104.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9104.785343750002,"end":9104.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9105.747218750003,"end":9105.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9105.76409375,"end":9109.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9115.21409375,"end":9117.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9134.65409375,"end":9138.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9135.88596875,"end":9136.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9146.179718750001,"end":9146.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9147.242843750002,"end":9151.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9152.06909375,"end":9153.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9154.87034375,"end":9159.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9159.696593750003,"end":9162.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9162.71721875,"end":9171.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9171.863468750002,"end":9173.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9173.48346875,"end":9174.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9174.37784375,"end":9177.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9175.660343750002,"end":9175.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9175.99784375,"end":9176.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9178.07346875,"end":9182.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9181.97159375,"end":9182.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9182.37659375,"end":9182.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9183.08534375,"end":9184.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9184.637843750003,"end":9184.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9184.840343750002,"end":9186.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9186.44346875,"end":9189.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9190.44284375,"end":9190.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9190.45971875,"end":9195.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9196.78784375,"end":9199.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9197.817218750002,"end":9200.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9200.06159375,"end":9200.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9200.753468750001,"end":9200.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9200.80409375,"end":9200.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9200.820968750002,"end":9200.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9200.972843750002,"end":9201.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9201.968468750001,"end":9204.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9204.43221875,"end":9208.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9208.85346875,"end":9214.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9215.046593750001,"end":9220.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9219.687218750001,"end":9222.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9222.79221875,"end":9225.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9226.015343750001,"end":9226.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9227.027843750002,"end":9234.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9234.43596875,"end":9245.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9245.77596875,"end":9248.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9249.235343750002,"end":9254.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9254.871593750002,"end":9258.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9257.36909375,"end":9258.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9258.465968750003,"end":9258.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9258.73596875,"end":9264.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9264.034718750001,"end":9264.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9264.777218750001,"end":9264.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9264.96284375,"end":9267.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9267.81471875,"end":9279.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9275.52659375,"end":9276.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9279.137843750003,"end":9282.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9279.45846875,"end":9281.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9282.22596875,"end":9286.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9286.91721875,"end":9298.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9288.95909375,"end":9289.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9290.54534375,"end":9290.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9290.612843750001,"end":9290.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9290.984093750001,"end":9291.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9291.50721875,"end":9291.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9292.722218750001,"end":9292.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9292.95846875,"end":9293.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9293.27909375,"end":9293.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9293.32971875,"end":9293.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9299.30346875,"end":9302.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9302.66159375,"end":9302.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9302.98221875,"end":9303.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9303.555968750003,"end":9303.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9303.84284375,"end":9307.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9308.48346875,"end":9308.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9309.63096875,"end":9309.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9311.06534375,"end":9312.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9313.292843750001,"end":9313.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9314.22096875,"end":9315.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9315.300968750002,"end":9316.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9316.836593750002,"end":9317.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9318.64221875,"end":9319.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9322.08471875,"end":9323.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9323.60346875,"end":9324.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9325.206593750001,"end":9325.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9326.52284375,"end":9327.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9331.450343750003,"end":9334.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9335.078468750002,"end":9335.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9338.082218750002,"end":9338.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9338.85846875,"end":9339.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9340.410968750002,"end":9341.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9341.676593750002,"end":9342.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9343.22909375,"end":9344.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9345.22034375,"end":9348.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9349.77659375,"end":9350.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9350.97471875,"end":9352.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9352.122218750003,"end":9354.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9355.649093750002,"end":9356.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9357.25221875,"end":9358.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9360.79596875,"end":9366.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9366.516593750002,"end":9367.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9367.57971875,"end":9368.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9368.085968750001,"end":9370.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9370.07721875,"end":9370.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9370.262843750003,"end":9371.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9371.96721875,"end":9373.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9375.797843750002,"end":9377.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9378.059093750002,"end":9380.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9380.28659375,"end":9380.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9381.164093750001,"end":9381.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9381.55221875,"end":9386.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9387.37409375,"end":9387.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9388.487843750001,"end":9389.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9390.023468750001,"end":9397.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9397.44846875,"end":9397.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9397.97159375,"end":9398.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9398.81534375,"end":9427.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9428.009093750003,"end":9428.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9428.059718750003,"end":9429.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9429.96659375,"end":9430.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9430.70909375,"end":9431.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9431.56971875,"end":9432.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9432.953468750002,"end":9436.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9438.066593750002,"end":9438.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9439.26471875,"end":9440.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9442.11659375,"end":9442.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9443.53409375,"end":9443.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9444.968468750001,"end":9446.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9446.554718750001,"end":9446.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9447.415343750003,"end":9449.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9450.01409375,"end":9456.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9456.207218750002,"end":9458.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9459.61596875,"end":9460.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9461.60721875,"end":9463.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9463.36221875,"end":9464.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9465.960968750001,"end":9468.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9468.89721875,"end":9470.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9470.85471875,"end":9472.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9472.94721875,"end":9476.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9477.33471875,"end":9483.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9484.118468750003,"end":9484.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9486.19409375,"end":9486.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9487.425968750002,"end":9487.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9487.949093750001,"end":9488.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9489.34971875,"end":9490.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9491.745968750001,"end":9493.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9493.804718750001,"end":9494.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9495.171593750001,"end":9497.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9497.90534375,"end":9499.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9499.37346875,"end":9500.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9500.74034375,"end":9502.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9503.136593750001,"end":9504.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9506.612843750001,"end":9507.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9507.794093750003,"end":9508.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9509.144093750001,"end":9510.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9511.118468750003,"end":9512.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9513.17721875,"end":9513.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9514.72971875,"end":9515.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9516.602843750003,"end":9516.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9517.598468750002,"end":9520.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9520.24784375,"end":9521.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9523.082843750002,"end":9523.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9523.69034375,"end":9525.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9525.47909375,"end":9526.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9527.352218750002,"end":9530.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9530.659718750001,"end":9536.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9536.785343750002,"end":9537.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9537.96659375,"end":9538.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9538.30409375,"end":9538.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9538.641593750002,"end":9538.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9538.65846875,"end":9542.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9543.332843750002,"end":9544.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9544.39596875,"end":9554.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9554.774093750002,"end":9572.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9573.35346875,"end":9577.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9578.04471875,"end":9579.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9579.20909375,"end":9594.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9594.39659375,"end":9597.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9597.29909375,"end":9599.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9599.57721875,"end":9601.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9602.226593750001,"end":9604.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9605.027843750002,"end":9612.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9607.74471875,"end":9608.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9609.01034375,"end":9609.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9611.254718750002,"end":9614.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9613.212218750003,"end":9616.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9617.312843750002,"end":9621.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9621.902843750002,"end":9624.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9624.14721875,"end":9624.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9624.46784375,"end":9631.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9631.605968750002,"end":9635.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9633.968468750001,"end":9634.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9635.43659375,"end":9637.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9637.91721875,"end":9641.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9642.574718750002,"end":9642.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9644.66721875,"end":9645.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9645.19034375,"end":9647.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9648.19409375,"end":9650.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9651.77159375,"end":9652.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9652.699718750002,"end":9654.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9654.87659375,"end":9655.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9656.98596875,"end":9658.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9658.99409375,"end":9660.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9660.765968750002,"end":9663.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9664.42784375,"end":9669.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9664.731593750003,"end":9665.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9670.300343750001,"end":9674.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9674.367218750001,"end":9676.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9676.72971875,"end":9693.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9694.11096875,"end":9695.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9694.95471875,"end":9695.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9695.579093750002,"end":9699.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9701.29971875,"end":9702.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9702.582218750002,"end":9708.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9708.50534375,"end":9710.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9710.41221875,"end":9710.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9710.547218750002,"end":9710.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9710.88471875,"end":9711.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9711.15471875,"end":9714.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9714.42846875,"end":9716.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9716.655968750001,"end":9717.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9717.347843750002,"end":9721.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9721.414718750002,"end":9723.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9721.65096875,"end":9721.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9723.321593750003,"end":9728.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9729.93659375,"end":9731.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9731.742218750001,"end":9733.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9734.020343750002,"end":9737.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9737.766593750002,"end":9740.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9740.48346875,"end":9741.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9742.12034375,"end":9753.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9754.118468750003,"end":9754.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9754.962218750003,"end":9755.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9756.39659375,"end":9758.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9758.30346875,"end":9758.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9758.52284375,"end":9759.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9758.92784375,"end":9761.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9762.066593750002,"end":9762.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9763.19721875,"end":9765.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9765.660968750002,"end":9767.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9768.090968750003,"end":9769.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9770.554718750001,"end":9773.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9774.01409375,"end":9774.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9775.634093750003,"end":9779.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9775.718468750001,"end":9776.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9776.629718750002,"end":9777.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9779.32971875,"end":9780.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9780.66284375,"end":9786.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9787.277843750002,"end":9787.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9787.61534375,"end":9799.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9799.32659375,"end":9803.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9803.86596875,"end":9806.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9806.160968750002,"end":9812.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9807.409718750001,"end":9809.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9812.067218750002,"end":9813.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9813.78846875,"end":9815.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9813.82221875,"end":9814.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9816.31971875,"end":9820.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9821.04471875,"end":9823.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9824.01471875,"end":9825.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9826.292843750001,"end":9828.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9829.11096875,"end":9829.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9830.477843750003,"end":9833.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9833.07659375,"end":9837.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9838.054718750001,"end":9839.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9839.55659375,"end":9841.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9841.429718750001,"end":9844.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9844.855343750001,"end":9847.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9847.184093750002,"end":9849.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9850.035968750002,"end":9851.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9851.605343750001,"end":9853.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9853.86659375,"end":9856.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9856.735343750002,"end":9857.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9857.96721875,"end":9859.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9859.70534375,"end":9860.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9860.785343750002,"end":9862.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9862.23659375,"end":9862.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9862.50659375,"end":9863.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9863.535968750002,"end":9864.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9863.67096875,"end":9866.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9866.40471875,"end":9875.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9866.421593750001,"end":9866.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9875.280968750001,"end":9881.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9881.89596875,"end":9882.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9882.80721875,"end":9886.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9887.093468750001,"end":9889.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9890.13096875,"end":9891.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9890.164718750002,"end":9890.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9892.29096875,"end":9894.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9892.93221875,"end":9893.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9894.55221875,"end":9897.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9897.690968750001,"end":9901.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9902.719718750002,"end":9908.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9903.74909375,"end":9905.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9909.31784375,"end":9910.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9911.29221875,"end":9915.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9916.050968750002,"end":9917.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9917.890343750001,"end":9919.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9919.054718750001,"end":9919.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9919.375343750002,"end":9924.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9923.374718750001,"end":9929.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9930.10784375,"end":9932.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9933.297218750002,"end":9934.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9934.84971875,"end":9937.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9938.039093750001,"end":9941.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9941.785343750002,"end":9942.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9942.93284375,"end":9943.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9943.000343750002,"end":9946.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9944.99159375,"end":9953.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9948.113468750002,"end":9948.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9950.62784375,"end":9956.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9955.53846875,"end":9959.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9958.12034375,"end":9958.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9959.01471875,"end":9964.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9964.12784375,"end":9964.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9964.16159375,"end":9969.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9964.566593750002,"end":9966.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9969.696593750003,"end":9971.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9971.02971875,"end":9977.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9976.81784375,"end":9976.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9977.45909375,"end":9980.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9981.30659375,"end":9982.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9982.774718750003,"end":9984.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9984.32721875,"end":9984.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9984.344093750002,"end":9984.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9984.37784375,"end":9984.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9984.597218750001,"end":9985.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9986.250968750002,"end":9988.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9989.38971875,"end":9992.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9993.794093750003,"end":9994.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9995.59971875,"end":9998.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9998.164718750002,"end":10000.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10000.83096875,"end":10001.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10001.590343750002,"end":10007.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10007.10846875,"end":10008.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10055.370968750001,"end":10055.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10322.60346875,"end":10325.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10331.817218750002,"end":10333.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10333.89284375,"end":10334.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10335.968468750001,"end":10336.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10340.102843750003,"end":10340.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10340.64284375,"end":10356.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10347.07221875,"end":10347.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10347.477218750002,"end":10347.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10356.74159375,"end":10357.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10356.87659375,"end":10372.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10371.43971875,"end":10371.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10372.35096875,"end":10379.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10372.40159375,"end":10373.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10378.949093750001,"end":10379.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10379.18534375,"end":10381.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10382.15534375,"end":10402.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10401.61221875,"end":10414.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10402.97909375,"end":10404.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10406.168468750002,"end":10411.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10414.30221875,"end":10416.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10416.816593750002,"end":10429.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10428.22409375,"end":10445.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10445.52096875,"end":10472.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10447.22534375,"end":10447.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10449.21659375,"end":10451.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10452.65909375,"end":10453.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10455.004718750002,"end":10455.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10458.91971875,"end":10458.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10466.378468750001,"end":10466.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10466.73284375,"end":10466.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10472.082218750002,"end":10472.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10472.250968750002,"end":10484.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10476.60471875,"end":10477.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10484.75534375,"end":10484.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10484.77221875,"end":10484.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10484.789093750001,"end":10484.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10484.839718750001,"end":10484.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10484.957843750002,"end":10499.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10486.915343750003,"end":10487.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10487.640968750002,"end":10487.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10498.710968750001,"end":10513.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10512.88596875,"end":10529.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10517.290343750003,"end":10517.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10518.437843750002,"end":10519.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10522.25159375,"end":10522.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10522.26846875,"end":10522.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10529.980343750001,"end":10540.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10539.14346875,"end":10539.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10540.442843750003,"end":10560.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10541.370968750001,"end":10543.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10545.79221875,"end":10546.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10546.281593750002,"end":10547.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10560.96284375,"end":10579.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10573.872218750003,"end":10575.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10579.035968750002,"end":10584.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10584.840968750003,"end":10587.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10588.13159375,"end":10603.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10591.38846875,"end":10592.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10592.02971875,"end":10592.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10592.046593750001,"end":10592.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10592.19846875,"end":10593.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10593.160343750002,"end":10593.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10603.89284375,"end":10607.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10606.12034375,"end":10608.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10608.95534375,"end":10632.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10611.942218750002,"end":10614.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10616.97096875,"end":10617.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10619.215343750002,"end":10620.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10621.425968750002,"end":10621.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10621.442843750003,"end":10622.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10624.429718750001,"end":10624.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10625.070968750002,"end":10626.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10631.297843750002,"end":10640.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10634.89221875,"end":10635.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10640.02221875,"end":10643.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10641.456593750001,"end":10668.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10645.38846875,"end":10648.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10653.30284375,"end":10653.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10654.500968750002,"end":10654.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10668.524093750002,"end":10673.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10673.02971875,"end":10676.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10677.231593750003,"end":10690.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10684.94346875,"end":10686.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10690.52909375,"end":10700.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10690.57971875,"end":10691.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10697.12721875,"end":10698.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10701.210968750001,"end":10701.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10701.227843750003,"end":10701.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10701.24471875,"end":10701.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10701.430343750002,"end":10701.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10701.46409375,"end":10701.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10701.599093750003,"end":10713.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10713.023468750001,"end":10730.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10730.55659375,"end":10755.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10732.159718750001,"end":10732.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10735.230968750002,"end":10735.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10756.274093750002,"end":10756.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10756.29096875,"end":10757.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10757.961593750002,"end":10775.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10767.52971875,"end":10768.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10774.364093750002,"end":10788.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10777.958468750003,"end":10778.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10788.387218750002,"end":10803.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10798.360343750002,"end":10798.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10802.79846875,"end":10803.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10803.96284375,"end":10804.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10804.03034375,"end":10818.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10804.82346875,"end":10804.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10818.25596875,"end":10866.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10819.36971875,"end":10819.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10833.055343750002,"end":10833.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10833.07221875,"end":10833.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10833.105968750002,"end":10833.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10835.755343750003,"end":10837.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10838.15159375,"end":10840.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10840.78409375,"end":10840.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10841.56034375,"end":10842.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10844.175968750002,"end":10845.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10845.914093750001,"end":10845.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10846.42034375,"end":10847.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10866.24846875,"end":10866.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10866.484718750002,"end":10879.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10877.53784375,"end":10877.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10877.554718750001,"end":10877.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10879.02284375,"end":10899.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10899.036593750003,"end":10902.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10902.023468750001,"end":10902.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10902.242843750002,"end":10902.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10902.27659375,"end":10905.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10902.293468750002,"end":10902.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10904.622218750003,"end":10913.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10908.11534375,"end":10908.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10910.460968750001,"end":10912.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10913.44784375,"end":10937.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10915.28721875,"end":10915.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10915.641593750002,"end":10916.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10917.430343750002,"end":10918.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10923.758468750002,"end":10924.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10938.13596875,"end":10940.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10940.02596875,"end":10940.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10940.312843750002,"end":10940.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10940.86971875,"end":10943.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10943.637218750002,"end":10944.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10955.449718750002,"end":10957.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10957.980968750002,"end":10958.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10958.453468750002,"end":10958.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10959.044093750003,"end":10961.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10962.13221875,"end":10963.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10964.24159375,"end":10964.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10964.933468750001,"end":10965.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10967.02596875,"end":10967.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10968.17346875,"end":10970.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10970.97471875,"end":10972.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10973.337218750003,"end":10975.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10975.277843750002,"end":10975.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10975.699718750002,"end":10975.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10975.851593750001,"end":10979.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10978.88909375,"end":10979.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10979.78346875,"end":10980.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10981.437218750001,"end":10981.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10981.47096875,"end":10984.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10984.96409375,"end":10988.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10989.33471875,"end":10989.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10989.38534375,"end":10991.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10989.97596875,"end":10990.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10990.212218750003,"end":10990.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10992.152843750002,"end":10993.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10993.75596875,"end":10994.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10994.71784375,"end":10996.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10995.51096875,"end":10996.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10996.35471875,"end":10996.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10996.72596875,"end":10998.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10998.109718750002,"end":10998.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10998.97034375,"end":10999.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10999.324718750002,"end":10999.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10999.965968750003,"end":11000.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11000.421593750001,"end":11000.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11000.438468750002,"end":11005.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11000.60721875,"end":11000.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11000.72534375,"end":11001.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11001.974093750003,"end":11002.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11006.715968750003,"end":11008.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11008.656593750002,"end":11009.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11009.753468750001,"end":11011.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11012.099093750003,"end":11017.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11015.204093750002,"end":11015.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11017.75221875,"end":11018.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11018.511593750001,"end":11018.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11019.895343750002,"end":11020.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11022.747218750003,"end":11022.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11022.780968750001,"end":11024.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11025.02534375,"end":11025.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11025.852218750002,"end":11025.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11025.86909375,"end":11034.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11034.542843750001,"end":11034.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11035.184093750002,"end":11035.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11035.21784375,"end":11043.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11043.43596875,"end":11045.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11044.245968750001,"end":11047.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11047.97534375,"end":11064.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11048.24534375,"end":11049.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11054.219093750002,"end":11055.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11055.02909375,"end":11055.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11055.704093750002,"end":11055.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11064.917843750001,"end":11066.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11066.672843750002,"end":11067.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11069.00159375,"end":11071.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11071.347218750001,"end":11071.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11071.769093750001,"end":11073.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11074.114718750003,"end":11074.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11074.215968750003,"end":11074.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11074.45221875,"end":11080.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11081.337218750003,"end":11084.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11084.712218750003,"end":11088.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11088.762218750002,"end":11090.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11091.411593750003,"end":11091.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11091.42846875,"end":11092.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11092.035968750002,"end":11092.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11093.63909375,"end":11098.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11097.942218750002,"end":11098.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11098.22909375,"end":11098.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11098.515968750002,"end":11099.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11099.039093750001,"end":11099.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11101.840343750002,"end":11104.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11105.215343750002,"end":11109.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11110.547843750002,"end":11115.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11115.610343750002,"end":11128.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11115.72846875,"end":11116.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11128.03034375,"end":11128.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11129.312843750002,"end":11129.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11129.34659375,"end":11133.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11134.054718750001,"end":11135.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11134.122218750003,"end":11142.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11142.120968750001,"end":11145.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11146.15409375,"end":11149.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11150.32221875,"end":11155.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11156.042843750001,"end":11159.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11160.04221875,"end":11168.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11164.46346875,"end":11165.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11168.597843750002,"end":11172.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11172.78284375,"end":11174.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11175.145343750002,"end":11176.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11176.934093750002,"end":11179.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11179.836593750002,"end":11181.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11183.39721875,"end":11184.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11184.03846875,"end":11185.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11185.945343750001,"end":11193.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11186.316593750002,"end":11186.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11190.434093750002,"end":11193.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11193.640343750001,"end":11194.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11195.327843750001,"end":11196.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11197.302218750003,"end":11198.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11199.79971875,"end":11200.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11200.05284375,"end":11200.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11200.778468750003,"end":11200.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11200.930343750002,"end":11200.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11200.99784375,"end":11201.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11201.031593750002,"end":11202.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11202.68534375,"end":11202.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11202.75284375,"end":11202.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11202.786593750003,"end":11206.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11203.02284375,"end":11204.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11207.71409375,"end":11212.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11214.059093750002,"end":11215.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11217.14721875,"end":11217.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11219.290343750003,"end":11220.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11220.87659375,"end":11222.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11224.42034375,"end":11226.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11226.58034375,"end":11227.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11227.187843750002,"end":11229.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11230.57971875,"end":11230.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11234.562218750001,"end":11236.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11237.61659375,"end":11245.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11247.015968750002,"end":11248.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11248.652843750002,"end":11249.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11251.67346875,"end":11252.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11252.63534375,"end":11253.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11254.440968750001,"end":11255.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11256.246593750002,"end":11256.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11256.719093750002,"end":11257.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11258.38971875,"end":11259.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11259.80721875,"end":11261.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11261.24159375,"end":11263.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11264.19471875,"end":11265.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11265.949718750002,"end":11266.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11266.945343750001,"end":11269.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11270.87721875,"end":11271.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11272.446593750003,"end":11273.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11273.40846875,"end":11275.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11275.028468750003,"end":11275.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11275.804718750001,"end":11275.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11276.024093750002,"end":11276.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11277.441593750002,"end":11281.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11281.457843750002,"end":11296.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11297.35409375,"end":11297.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11297.40471875,"end":11304.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11304.441593750002,"end":11306.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11306.753468750001,"end":11308.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11306.90534375,"end":11308.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11308.238468750002,"end":11308.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11308.356593750003,"end":11312.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11312.76096875,"end":11316.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11315.76471875,"end":11316.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11316.405968750001,"end":11320.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11319.274718750003,"end":11319.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11320.38846875,"end":11322.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11323.34159375,"end":11327.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11328.437843750002,"end":11329.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11330.024093750002,"end":11330.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11331.019718750002,"end":11336.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11337.21284375,"end":11338.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11339.676593750002,"end":11340.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11340.030968750001,"end":11340.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11341.515968750002,"end":11356.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11356.500968750002,"end":11356.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11356.973468750002,"end":11357.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11357.024093750002,"end":11357.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11357.969093750002,"end":11358.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11358.036593750003,"end":11359.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11359.99409375,"end":11365.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11365.984718750002,"end":11366.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11367.26721875,"end":11367.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11367.28409375,"end":11370.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11371.55346875,"end":11373.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11375.265968750002,"end":11377.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11378.539718750002,"end":11378.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11380.09221875,"end":11381.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11382.809093750002,"end":11383.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11384.277218750001,"end":11385.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11385.610343750002,"end":11388.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11388.85034375,"end":11389.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11390.352218750002,"end":11391.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11392.32659375,"end":11393.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11394.11534375,"end":11395.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11396.528468750003,"end":11397.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11399.17784375,"end":11399.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11400.08909375,"end":11400.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11400.96659375,"end":11402.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11404.594718750002,"end":11405.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11406.636593750001,"end":11407.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11409.336593750002,"end":11417.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11417.723468750002,"end":11421.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11421.030968750001,"end":11421.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11422.22909375,"end":11422.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11422.245968750001,"end":11426.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11426.937218750001,"end":11428.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11428.962218750003,"end":11430.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11430.97034375,"end":11431.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11432.269718750002,"end":11441.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11441.90534375,"end":11443.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11444.774093750002,"end":11446.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11446.714718750001,"end":11451.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11451.43971875,"end":11452.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11451.54096875,"end":11451.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11451.574718750002,"end":11452.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11452.03034375,"end":11452.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11452.90784375,"end":11452.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11452.941593750002,"end":11459.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11461.51409375,"end":11462.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11462.52659375,"end":11465.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11466.019718750002,"end":11468.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11469.15846875,"end":11472.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11473.090343750002,"end":11473.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11474.84534375,"end":11475.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11475.97596875,"end":11480.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11477.49471875,"end":11478.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11480.29596875,"end":11480.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11481.527843750002,"end":11482.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11484.56534375,"end":11487.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11488.66596875,"end":11491.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11492.074718750002,"end":11493.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11493.964718750001,"end":11495.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11497.559093750002,"end":11500.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11501.17034375,"end":11504.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11505.692843750003,"end":11506.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11507.835968750001,"end":11509.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11510.890343750001,"end":11511.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11512.98284375,"end":11515.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11516.77971875,"end":11522.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11516.99909375,"end":11517.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11517.52221875,"end":11517.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11517.539093750001,"end":11517.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11518.09596875,"end":11518.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11518.399718750003,"end":11518.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11518.433468750001,"end":11518.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11518.754093750002,"end":11519.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11523.22596875,"end":11525.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11526.33096875,"end":11530.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11530.75221875,"end":11531.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11533.01346875,"end":11534.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11536.422218750002,"end":11538.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11539.425968750002,"end":11539.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11540.843468750001,"end":11541.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11542.109093750001,"end":11542.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11542.71659375,"end":11547.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11556.452843750001,"end":11559.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11560.45221875,"end":11560.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11562.91596875,"end":11601.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11602.302218750003,"end":11603.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11603.972843750002,"end":11618.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11613.60846875,"end":11613.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11613.625343750002,"end":11615.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11616.004718750002,"end":11626.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11618.434718750003,"end":11619.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11625.72471875,"end":11628.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11627.31096875,"end":11645.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11629.757843750001,"end":11632.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11645.012843750003,"end":11648.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11648.269718750002,"end":11690.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11649.535343750002,"end":11649.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11671.590968750003,"end":11671.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11690.86221875,"end":11705.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11704.868468750003,"end":11707.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11706.184718750003,"end":11706.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11708.243468750003,"end":11754.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11755.527218750001,"end":11764.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11765.78721875,"end":11769.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11770.00596875,"end":11772.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11771.11971875,"end":11771.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11772.030968750001,"end":11774.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11774.089718750001,"end":11775.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11776.097843750002,"end":11782.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11781.76784375,"end":11781.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11782.965968750003,"end":11782.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11782.98284375,"end":11783.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11783.97846875,"end":11800.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11801.24159375,"end":11818.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11817.120968750001,"end":11817.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11818.605968750002,"end":11823.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11821.74471875,"end":11821.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11823.027218750001,"end":11834.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11823.26346875,"end":11824.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11834.97471875,"end":11835.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11835.261593750001,"end":11835.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11835.61596875,"end":11838.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11839.328468750002,"end":11843.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11843.42909375,"end":11856.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11854.684718750003,"end":11862.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11856.55784375,"end":11857.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11858.59971875,"end":11858.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11859.34221875,"end":11859.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11861.70471875,"end":11861.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11862.07596875,"end":11869.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11867.18909375,"end":11887.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11871.914093750001,"end":11873.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11873.63534375,"end":11873.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11888.215343750002,"end":11905.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11905.984718750002,"end":11922.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11922.79221875,"end":11941.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11938.536593750003,"end":11971.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11942.046593750001,"end":11944.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11944.746593750002,"end":11944.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11946.855968750002,"end":11947.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11947.26096875,"end":11947.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11950.534718750001,"end":11950.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11950.66971875,"end":11950.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11956.710968750001,"end":11957.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11958.297218750002,"end":11962.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11972.18534375,"end":11999.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12000.687218750001,"end":12009.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12009.563468750002,"end":12013.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12013.05659375,"end":12013.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12013.461593750002,"end":12021.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12021.93284375,"end":12037.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12038.605343750001,"end":12072.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12073.587218750003,"end":12077.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12076.03409375,"end":12090.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12078.531593750002,"end":12079.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12081.78846875,"end":12082.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12089.26409375,"end":12091.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12090.64784375,"end":12102.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12103.422218750002,"end":12105.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12105.76784375,"end":12146.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12146.68971875,"end":12155.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12156.13971875,"end":12163.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12164.45909375,"end":12167.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12167.445968750002,"end":12168.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12168.070343750001,"end":12170.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12170.348468750002,"end":12174.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12174.972218750001,"end":12183.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12175.00596875,"end":12176.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12183.29159375,"end":12185.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12185.65409375,"end":12195.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12195.171593750001,"end":12208.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12195.390968750002,"end":12195.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12207.38909375,"end":12233.849093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12208.317218750002,"end":12210.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12217.83471875,"end":12217.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12218.89784375,"end":12219.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12219.977843750003,"end":12220.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12228.938468750002,"end":12230.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12232.02659375,"end":12256.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12238.590968750003,"end":12243.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12255.516593750002,"end":12255.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12256.52909375,"end":12263.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12263.61659375,"end":12265.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12265.75971875,"end":12270.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12270.282218750002,"end":12281.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12274.09596875,"end":12274.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12281.453468750002,"end":12295.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12285.790343750003,"end":12286.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12286.212218750003,"end":12286.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12294.12659375,"end":12298.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12298.530968750001,"end":12308.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12307.559093750002,"end":12315.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12310.832843750002,"end":12311.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12311.33909375,"end":12311.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12311.44034375,"end":12311.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12311.96346875,"end":12312.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12312.925343750001,"end":12313.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12313.02659375,"end":12316.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12316.03034375,"end":12325.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12319.81034375,"end":12320.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12322.30784375,"end":12322.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12322.324718750002,"end":12324.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12325.176593750002,"end":12325.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12326.847218750001,"end":12329.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12338.980343750001,"end":12340.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12340.97159375,"end":12341.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12348.09284375,"end":12348.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12349.71284375,"end":12409.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12356.344718750002,"end":12356.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12356.41221875,"end":12356.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12356.614718750003,"end":12356.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12357.593468750001,"end":12357.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12357.964718750001,"end":12358.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12360.664718750002,"end":12360.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12368.477843750003,"end":12368.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12368.64659375,"end":12368.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12370.570343750001,"end":12371.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12378.535343750002,"end":12378.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12378.88971875,"end":12378.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12381.657218750002,"end":12382.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12395.106593750003,"end":12395.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12398.042843750001,"end":12398.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12398.954093750002,"end":12399.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12409.450343750003,"end":12429.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12419.33909375,"end":12419.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12419.355968750002,"end":12419.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12419.38971875,"end":12419.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12422.579093750002,"end":12422.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12422.59596875,"end":12422.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12429.852218750002,"end":12429.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12429.953468750002,"end":12430.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12430.122218750003,"end":12430.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12431.72534375,"end":12461.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12461.77971875,"end":12494.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12495.495968750001,"end":12497.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12498.38159375,"end":12508.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12508.43909375,"end":12511.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12512.168468750002,"end":12523.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12522.90096875,"end":12533.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12529.60034375,"end":12529.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12533.734718750002,"end":12556.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12557.039093750001,"end":12572.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12573.25596875,"end":12576.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12576.15846875,"end":12604.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12580.090343750002,"end":12580.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12582.28409375,"end":12582.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12582.58784375,"end":12582.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12582.672218750002,"end":12582.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12585.827843750001,"end":12586.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12586.82346875,"end":12587.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12604.79534375,"end":12609.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12609.621593750002,"end":12612.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12613.317218750002,"end":12619.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12614.785343750002,"end":12629.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12620.87721875,"end":12621.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12625.46721875,"end":12626.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12628.42034375,"end":12631.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12632.11596875,"end":12640.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12640.469093750002,"end":12650.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12641.515343750001,"end":12641.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12650.94846875,"end":12655.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12653.46284375,"end":12657.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12660.567218750002,"end":12662.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12661.49534375,"end":12663.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12662.524718750003,"end":12662.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12663.48659375,"end":12665.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12664.00971875,"end":12664.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12664.094093750002,"end":12664.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12664.97159375,"end":12665.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12665.039093750001,"end":12665.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12665.27534375,"end":12665.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12665.29221875,"end":12665.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12665.309093750002,"end":12665.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12665.59596875,"end":12672.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12667.60409375,"end":12667.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12667.637843750003,"end":12668.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12670.793468750002,"end":12671.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12671.687843750002,"end":12677.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12680.817218750002,"end":12681.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12681.52596875,"end":12682.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12682.403468750003,"end":12684.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12685.035968750002,"end":12687.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12687.65159375,"end":12692.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12691.583468750003,"end":12697.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12695.92034375,"end":12701.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12700.67909375,"end":12747.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12703.71659375,"end":12704.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12705.57284375,"end":12706.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12706.129718750002,"end":12706.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12714.297218750002,"end":12715.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12747.96284375,"end":12750.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12751.75971875,"end":12754.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12755.15159375,"end":12757.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12757.66596875,"end":12764.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12764.922218750002,"end":12765.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12765.64784375,"end":12767.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12767.976593750001,"end":12769.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12768.22971875,"end":12768.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12769.461593750002,"end":12779.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12772.262843750003,"end":12772.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12772.92096875,"end":12773.376593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12775.097843750002,"end":12775.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12777.645968750003,"end":12781.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12780.39659375,"end":12814.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12808.34159375,"end":12808.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12808.35846875,"end":12808.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12814.399718750003,"end":12856.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12856.907843750003,"end":12873.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12873.47909375,"end":12881.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12880.97159375,"end":12881.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12881.528468750003,"end":12888.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12883.92471875,"end":12884.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12888.953468750002,"end":12892.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12892.868468750003,"end":12900.782843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12898.977218750002,"end":12904.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12901.00221875,"end":12901.204718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12901.204718750003,"end":12901.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12901.32284375,"end":12901.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12901.356593750003,"end":12901.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12903.499718750001,"end":12904.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12904.42784375,"end":12904.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12904.44471875,"end":12905.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12905.38971875,"end":12905.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12905.457218750002,"end":12910.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12911.97096875,"end":12912.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12919.547843750002,"end":12920.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12921.387218750002,"end":12921.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12929.01471875,"end":12930.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12930.70221875,"end":12932.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12932.96346875,"end":12955.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12955.559093750002,"end":12963.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12964.148468750001,"end":12975.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12975.859718750002,"end":12983.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12984.465968750003,"end":12986.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12986.609093750001,"end":12992.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12993.173468750003,"end":13006.251593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12995.62034375,"end":12995.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12995.687843750002,"end":12996.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12996.14346875,"end":12996.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12996.24471875,"end":12996.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12996.362843750001,"end":12996.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12997.223468750002,"end":12997.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12997.274093750002,"end":12998.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12998.219093750002,"end":12998.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12998.438468750002,"end":12998.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12998.92784375,"end":12998.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13006.673468750003,"end":13008.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13008.546593750001,"end":13009.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13010.26784375,"end":13010.892218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13011.17909375,"end":13015.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13015.90409375,"end":13021.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13022.19846875,"end":13024.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13024.67909375,"end":13025.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13025.860343750002,"end":13030.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13030.112843750001,"end":13030.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13030.905968750001,"end":13030.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13030.956593750001,"end":13030.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13030.973468750002,"end":13031.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13031.024093750002,"end":13032.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13031.277218750001,"end":13031.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13033.133468750002,"end":13037.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13037.38596875,"end":13040.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13041.33471875,"end":13043.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13043.832218750002,"end":13047.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13047.797843750002,"end":13048.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13048.067843750003,"end":13076.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13048.101593750001,"end":13048.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13076.45159375,"end":13077.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13078.274093750002,"end":13090.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13083.89346875,"end":13083.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13083.960968750001,"end":13084.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13090.96409375,"end":13112.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13094.254718750002,"end":13094.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13095.992843750002,"end":13096.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13098.456593750001,"end":13099.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13099.536593750003,"end":13099.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13099.70534375,"end":13099.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13103.367218750001,"end":13103.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13103.637218750002,"end":13104.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13104.02534375,"end":13105.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13110.336593750002,"end":13153.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13117.390343750001,"end":13117.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13117.761593750001,"end":13117.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13137.437843750002,"end":13137.454718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13137.47159375,"end":13137.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13140.35721875,"end":13140.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13140.37409375,"end":13140.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13154.414093750001,"end":13154.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13154.97096875,"end":13160.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13160.168468750002,"end":13162.767218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13162.919093750003,"end":13168.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13168.082843750002,"end":13178.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13169.73659375,"end":13170.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13171.137218750002,"end":13171.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13172.470343750003,"end":13173.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13178.81534375,"end":13205.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13206.051593750002,"end":13209.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13209.409718750001,"end":13212.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13213.071593750003,"end":13217.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13217.813468750002,"end":13234.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13235.17784375,"end":13244.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13244.03721875,"end":13324.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13253.01471875,"end":13253.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13283.929718750001,"end":13284.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13284.199718750002,"end":13284.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13284.21659375,"end":13284.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13284.23346875,"end":13284.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13324.969718750002,"end":13325.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13325.644718750002,"end":13325.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13325.661593750003,"end":13337.845343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13337.845343750003,"end":13337.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13338.18284375,"end":13340.798468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13341.051593750002,"end":13345.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13345.55721875,"end":13347.126593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13347.14346875,"end":13349.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13350.130343750003,"end":13373.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13361.80784375,"end":13362.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13373.97471875,"end":13385.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13384.15034375,"end":13389.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13388.925968750002,"end":13397.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13394.59596875,"end":13396.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13397.532218750002,"end":13398.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13398.645968750003,"end":13401.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13413.31034375,"end":13413.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13416.70221875,"end":13417.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13418.37284375,"end":13418.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13425.86534375,"end":13436.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13437.00284375,"end":13465.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13466.179718750001,"end":13469.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13469.402843750002,"end":13470.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13470.567218750002,"end":13475.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13475.157218750002,"end":13480.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13480.87784375,"end":13482.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13482.88596875,"end":13488.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13488.25221875,"end":13490.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13490.85096875,"end":13494.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13495.06971875,"end":13507.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13507.962218750003,"end":13511.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13511.99534375,"end":13512.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13512.88971875,"end":13512.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13514.05409375,"end":13515.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13515.31971875,"end":13517.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13517.614718750003,"end":13518.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13519.21784375,"end":13519.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13519.94346875,"end":13522.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13522.339718750001,"end":13523.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13523.352218750002,"end":13524.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13524.43221875,"end":13524.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13524.449093750001,"end":13524.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13524.75284375,"end":13529.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13528.465343750002,"end":13532.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13533.29159375,"end":13534.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13534.860968750003,"end":13535.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13535.535968750002,"end":13535.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13535.97471875,"end":13537.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13537.544093750003,"end":13537.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13538.35409375,"end":13538.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13538.961593750002,"end":13540.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13540.93596875,"end":13543.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13543.78784375,"end":13549.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13549.10346875,"end":13554.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13554.098468750002,"end":13556.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13554.95909375,"end":13560.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13561.18596875,"end":13573.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13572.99846875,"end":13574.095343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13574.095343750003,"end":13574.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13574.972843750002,"end":13575.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13575.10784375,"end":13575.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13575.192218750002,"end":13575.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13575.37784375,"end":13575.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13575.833468750003,"end":13581.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13576.79534375,"end":13578.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13582.02659375,"end":13583.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13583.984093750001,"end":13587.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13588.23659375,"end":13593.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13593.67034375,"end":13596.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13596.690968750001,"end":13602.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13603.10346875,"end":13615.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13614.12284375,"end":13614.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13616.19846875,"end":13621.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13621.969718750002,"end":13629.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13630.12034375,"end":13637.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13637.950343750003,"end":13642.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13643.08034375,"end":13644.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13645.122218750003,"end":13646.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13647.02909375,"end":13649.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13649.89784375,"end":13651.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13651.46721875,"end":13653.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13654.36971875,"end":13655.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13655.280968750001,"end":13657.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13657.74471875,"end":13669.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13671.160343750002,"end":13675.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13676.30721875,"end":13676.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13677.690968750001,"end":13688.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13687.984718750002,"end":13690.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13689.28409375,"end":13689.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13689.55409375,"end":13700.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13700.45534375,"end":13704.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13704.505343750003,"end":13704.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13704.960968750001,"end":13704.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13704.99471875,"end":13711.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13711.57596875,"end":13715.001593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13715.237843750001,"end":13724.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13721.262218750002,"end":13724.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13724.519093750001,"end":13724.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13724.97471875,"end":13731.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13727.57346875,"end":13728.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13731.167843750001,"end":13731.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13731.387218750002,"end":13734.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13732.062218750001,"end":13734.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13734.880343750003,"end":13739.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13739.099093750003,"end":13746.220343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13739.11596875,"end":13740.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13740.735968750003,"end":13741.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13746.355343750001,"end":13748.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13748.49846875,"end":13753.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13753.66221875,"end":13757.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13757.03721875,"end":13767.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13757.070968750002,"end":13757.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13757.77971875,"end":13757.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13767.22971875,"end":13767.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13767.80346875,"end":13777.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13778.67096875,"end":13785.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13785.31971875,"end":13787.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13787.344718750002,"end":13798.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13797.16596875,"end":13799.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13798.532843750003,"end":13806.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13803.629093750002,"end":13804.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13806.227843750003,"end":13806.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13806.852218750002,"end":13807.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13808.97846875,"end":13812.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13826.54534375,"end":13829.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13829.852843750003,"end":13830.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13830.24096875,"end":13830.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13836.180968750003,"end":13836.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13837.530968750001,"end":13838.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13838.98221875,"end":13849.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13849.47846875,"end":13855.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13856.633468750002,"end":13860.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13860.71721875,"end":13863.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13863.78846875,"end":13868.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13869.070343750001,"end":13872.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13873.356593750003,"end":13900.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13900.035968750002,"end":13931.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13931.895968750003,"end":13938.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13933.02659375,"end":13933.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13933.38096875,"end":13933.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13933.60034375,"end":13933.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13934.140343750001,"end":13935.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13935.034718750001,"end":13935.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13938.96659375,"end":13948.298468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13939.97909375,"end":13940.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13947.437843750002,"end":13947.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13948.298468750003,"end":13948.720343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13948.652843750002,"end":13976.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13954.187843750002,"end":13954.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13955.16659375,"end":13955.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13955.183468750001,"end":13955.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13955.53784375,"end":13955.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13957.02284375,"end":13957.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13957.05659375,"end":13957.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13957.10721875,"end":13957.157843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13975.24784375,"end":13977.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13977.593468750001,"end":13980.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13978.926593750002,"end":13979.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13980.833468750003,"end":13981.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13981.035968750002,"end":13983.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13981.05284375,"end":13981.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13982.993468750003,"end":13983.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13983.314093750003,"end":13994.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13994.890343750001,"end":13998.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13998.974093750003,"end":14016.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14011.140968750002,"end":14012.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14016.81096875,"end":14021.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14022.278468750003,"end":14034.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14034.968468750001,"end":14042.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14038.86659375,"end":14039.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14041.44846875,"end":14043.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14043.372218750003,"end":14062.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14044.570343750001,"end":14045.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14045.633468750002,"end":14050.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14050.965968750003,"end":14051.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14062.035968750002,"end":14065.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14065.96784375,"end":14075.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14076.14346875,"end":14079.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14079.45096875,"end":14082.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14082.37034375,"end":14087.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14087.770343750002,"end":14092.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14092.343468750001,"end":14092.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14093.102843750003,"end":14093.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14093.11971875,"end":14111.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14098.536593750003,"end":14098.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14098.55346875,"end":14099.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14099.59971875,"end":14099.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14099.97096875,"end":14100.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14100.797843750002,"end":14100.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14101.202843750001,"end":14102.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14107.46346875,"end":14107.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14108.08784375,"end":14108.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14110.551593750002,"end":14111.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14111.024093750002,"end":14125.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14115.90096875,"end":14116.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14120.474093750003,"end":14130.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14129.789093750001,"end":14139.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14139.42471875,"end":14140.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14139.77909375,"end":14142.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14141.83784375,"end":14143.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14143.96409375,"end":14153.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14153.785343750002,"end":14167.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14167.74096875,"end":14186.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14186.94471875,"end":14231.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14194.31909375,"end":14199.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14232.254093750002,"end":14232.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14232.270968750003,"end":14245.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14239.105343750001,"end":14239.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14244.89346875,"end":14245.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14245.922843750002,"end":14245.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14245.93971875,"end":14251.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14246.344718750002,"end":14246.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14252.504093750002,"end":14260.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14260.97534375,"end":14274.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14261.363468750002,"end":14261.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14263.371593750002,"end":14263.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14266.999718750001,"end":14267.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14270.290343750003,"end":14270.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14274.137843750003,"end":14274.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14274.188468750002,"end":14274.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14274.72846875,"end":14275.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14275.032218750002,"end":14282.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14282.254718750002,"end":14282.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14282.879093750002,"end":14282.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14282.96346875,"end":14282.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14282.980343750001,"end":14283.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14283.081593750001,"end":14303.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14285.798468750003,"end":14286.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14288.81909375,"end":14289.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14292.430343750002,"end":14294.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14294.590343750002,"end":14294.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14304.15846875,"end":14313.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14314.114718750003,"end":14322.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14322.737843750001,"end":14332.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14333.672843750002,"end":14337.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14337.199718750002,"end":14345.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14345.856593750003,"end":14348.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14349.012218750002,"end":14350.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14350.581593750001,"end":14353.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14354.10846875,"end":14359.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14359.05284375,"end":14359.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14359.74471875,"end":14359.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14359.812218750001,"end":14367.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14359.862843750001,"end":14360.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14367.76034375,"end":14371.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14372.637218750002,"end":14375.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14375.708468750003,"end":14383.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14384.01096875,"end":14385.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14386.035968750002,"end":14386.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14386.57596875,"end":14395.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14396.515343750001,"end":14413.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14413.440968750001,"end":14413.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14413.508468750002,"end":14427.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14413.52534375,"end":14414.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14427.71721875,"end":14433.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14433.960968750001,"end":14440.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14441.200343750003,"end":14442.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14443.00596875,"end":14444.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14445.250343750002,"end":14446.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14446.313468750002,"end":14464.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14451.03846875,"end":14453.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14453.72159375,"end":14454.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14462.20971875,"end":14463.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14463.72846875,"end":14480.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14465.719718750002,"end":14466.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14467.508468750002,"end":14467.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14469.347843750002,"end":14470.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14472.21659375,"end":14472.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14475.13596875,"end":14475.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14477.734718750002,"end":14478.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14479.000343750002,"end":14479.439093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14480.012843750003,"end":14483.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14483.691593750002,"end":14483.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14483.72534375,"end":14483.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14483.742218750001,"end":14483.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14483.77596875,"end":14484.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14484.012218750002,"end":14484.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14484.02909375,"end":14496.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14489.15909375,"end":14489.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14492.41596875,"end":14492.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14493.495968750001,"end":14493.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14494.508468750002,"end":14494.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14495.453468750002,"end":14495.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14497.17471875,"end":14498.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14498.237843750001,"end":14501.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14504.66721875,"end":14504.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14510.067218750002,"end":14511.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14512.19346875,"end":14513.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14515.956593750001,"end":14516.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14517.20534375,"end":14517.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14523.90471875,"end":14525.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14525.22096875,"end":14536.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14535.379718750002,"end":14558.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14559.409718750001,"end":14559.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14559.96659375,"end":14560.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14560.793468750002,"end":14560.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14560.844093750002,"end":14563.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14561.97471875,"end":14562.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14563.020968750003,"end":14563.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14563.375343750002,"end":14563.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14563.965968750003,"end":14568.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14566.36221875,"end":14566.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14568.640343750001,"end":14568.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14569.500968750002,"end":14577.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14577.027218750001,"end":14577.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14577.094718750002,"end":14577.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14577.972218750001,"end":14584.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14584.992218750001,"end":14593.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14593.46346875,"end":14620.345343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14611.064093750003,"end":14613.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14613.96659375,"end":14614.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14620.395968750003,"end":14622.876593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14623.51784375,"end":14624.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14624.277218750001,"end":14624.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14624.36159375,"end":14627.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14627.280968750001,"end":14630.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14630.976593750001,"end":14636.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14636.899718750003,"end":14637.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14637.777218750001,"end":14643.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14644.18971875,"end":14645.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14645.286593750003,"end":14645.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14645.30346875,"end":14645.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14645.387843750003,"end":14645.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14645.438468750002,"end":14645.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14645.472218750001,"end":14645.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14645.55659375,"end":14645.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14645.77596875,"end":14645.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14645.809718750003,"end":14647.345343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14647.530968750001,"end":14658.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14647.83471875,"end":14648.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14658.972218750001,"end":14659.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14659.02284375,"end":14659.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14659.07346875,"end":14663.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14660.54159375,"end":14663.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14663.528468750003,"end":14671.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14671.965968750003,"end":14682.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14682.64784375,"end":14685.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14686.42784375,"end":14700.079718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14700.079718750003,"end":14701.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14701.902218750001,"end":14704.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14704.61909375,"end":14707.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14707.454093750002,"end":14707.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14707.52159375,"end":14707.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14707.62284375,"end":14707.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14707.707218750002,"end":14724.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14725.03784375,"end":14732.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14732.699093750001,"end":14748.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14736.816593750002,"end":14741.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14744.410343750002,"end":14744.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14748.49409375,"end":14748.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14748.66284375,"end":14758.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14755.21034375,"end":14755.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14755.379093750002,"end":14755.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14758.99034375,"end":14767.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14763.73221875,"end":14764.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14767.815968750001,"end":14787.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14772.642218750003,"end":14773.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14774.430968750003,"end":14774.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14774.481593750003,"end":14774.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14774.65034375,"end":14774.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14774.97096875,"end":14776.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14787.79596875,"end":14794.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14791.407218750002,"end":14793.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14794.343468750001,"end":14802.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14803.28721875,"end":14809.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14808.180968750003,"end":14808.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14809.868468750003,"end":14810.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14811.032843750003,"end":14847.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14813.83409375,"end":14814.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14818.69409375,"end":14819.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14832.210968750001,"end":14832.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14834.62409375,"end":14835.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14835.40034375,"end":14838.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14847.077843750001,"end":14847.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14847.145343750002,"end":14856.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14857.30409375,"end":14859.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14860.004093750002,"end":14861.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14862.079718750003,"end":14863.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14863.952843750001,"end":14864.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14864.45909375,"end":14865.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14866.112843750001,"end":14878.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14878.515968750002,"end":14900.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14889.130343750003,"end":14889.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14889.14721875,"end":14889.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14889.315968750001,"end":14889.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14889.704093750002,"end":14889.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14900.976593750001,"end":14926.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14905.532843750003,"end":14905.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14905.583468750003,"end":14905.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14905.81971875,"end":14905.954718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14908.992218750001,"end":14909.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14913.126593750003,"end":14913.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14913.93659375,"end":14914.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14914.03784375,"end":14914.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14920.922843750002,"end":14921.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14924.43284375,"end":14928.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14927.26784375,"end":14952.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14933.511593750001,"end":14933.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14952.68159375,"end":14957.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14957.76096875,"end":14968.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14968.03784375,"end":14977.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14978.196593750003,"end":14979.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14981.250968750002,"end":14983.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14983.343468750001,"end":14983.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14983.394093750001,"end":14991.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14991.39284375,"end":14991.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14991.46034375,"end":14995.341593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14995.695968750002,"end":14998.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14999.070968750002,"end":15001.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15001.079093750002,"end":15002.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15002.88471875,"end":15003.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15003.407843750003,"end":15029.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15013.718468750001,"end":15013.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15029.445968750002,"end":15038.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15038.81159375,"end":15045.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15045.03846875,"end":15055.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15047.13096875,"end":15048.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15049.105343750001,"end":15051.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15052.41284375,"end":15054.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15054.47159375,"end":15058.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15058.352843750003,"end":15058.622843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15058.622843750003,"end":15069.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15069.97971875,"end":15075.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15071.54909375,"end":15071.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15071.582843750002,"end":15072.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15075.801593750002,"end":15075.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15075.970343750003,"end":15076.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15076.341593750003,"end":15076.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15077.35409375,"end":15077.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15078.36659375,"end":15083.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15083.445968750002,"end":15084.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15084.914093750001,"end":15086.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15086.399093750002,"end":15093.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15089.841593750003,"end":15096.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15096.996593750002,"end":15099.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15098.24534375,"end":15099.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15100.35471875,"end":15100.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15100.540343750003,"end":15100.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15100.692218750002,"end":15102.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15101.77221875,"end":15103.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15102.71721875,"end":15103.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15103.493468750003,"end":15103.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15103.965968750003,"end":15126.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15108.184718750003,"end":15108.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15112.84221875,"end":15113.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15126.409718750001,"end":15126.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15126.66284375,"end":15126.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15126.679718750001,"end":15128.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15128.046593750001,"end":15128.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15128.856593750003,"end":15134.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15134.712218750003,"end":15157.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15157.324718750002,"end":15166.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15166.302218750003,"end":15172.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15172.22534375,"end":15180.595343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15188.813468750002,"end":15191.935343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15197.33534375,"end":15197.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15197.36909375,"end":15197.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15198.11159375,"end":15198.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15198.567218750002,"end":15212.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15208.793468750002,"end":15208.810343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15208.810343750003,"end":15208.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15208.962218750003,"end":15209.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15209.60346875,"end":15209.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15209.890343750001,"end":15209.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15209.92409375,"end":15210.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15212.97846875,"end":15235.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15217.16346875,"end":15217.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15230.44409375,"end":15230.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15236.012843750003,"end":15242.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15242.374718750001,"end":15255.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15256.27971875,"end":15256.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15256.769093750001,"end":15280.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15263.367218750001,"end":15263.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15263.40096875,"end":15263.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15265.172843750002,"end":15267.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15267.231593750003,"end":15267.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15267.602843750003,"end":15267.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15268.851593750001,"end":15269.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15277.22159375,"end":15277.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15279.972218750001,"end":15280.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15280.37721875,"end":15310.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15285.405968750001,"end":15285.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15288.274718750003,"end":15288.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15295.530968750001,"end":15295.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15295.919093750003,"end":15295.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15295.952843750001,"end":15295.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15309.638468750003,"end":15318.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15318.919718750003,"end":15320.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15320.539718750002,"end":15331.997843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15332.284718750001,"end":15342.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15342.24096875,"end":15346.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15347.185343750003,"end":15400.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15351.134093750003,"end":15351.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15354.171593750001,"end":15354.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15354.25596875,"end":15354.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15391.54971875,"end":15391.954718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15393.152843750002,"end":15394.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15396.51096875,"end":15396.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15400.544093750003,"end":15401.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15401.809718750003,"end":15404.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15401.94471875,"end":15402.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15404.03721875,"end":15404.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15404.50971875,"end":15421.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15421.722218750001,"end":15426.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15425.839718750001,"end":15437.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15436.673468750003,"end":15443.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15438.00659375,"end":15438.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15439.94721875,"end":15440.841593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15444.419093750003,"end":15447.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15446.950343750003,"end":15451.439093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15451.641593750002,"end":15454.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15454.544093750003,"end":15460.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15455.99534375,"end":15456.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15456.029093750003,"end":15456.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15460.534718750001,"end":15480.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15470.54159375,"end":15470.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15476.29596875,"end":15476.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15480.497843750003,"end":15489.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15489.930968750003,"end":15490.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15490.234718750002,"end":15502.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15502.570343750001,"end":15502.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15502.587218750003,"end":15503.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15504.105968750002,"end":15508.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15509.08409375,"end":15520.575968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15526.515968750002,"end":15529.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15535.56096875,"end":15536.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15536.016593750002,"end":15536.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15536.55659375,"end":15584.700968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15584.987843750001,"end":15612.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15593.644718750002,"end":15594.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15607.87034375,"end":15609.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15613.28721875,"end":15619.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15620.47596875,"end":15627.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15627.42846875,"end":15649.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15637.469093750002,"end":15637.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15637.75596875,"end":15637.907843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15650.26034375,"end":15660.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15659.153468750003,"end":15665.751593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15666.122843750003,"end":15679.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15679.757843750001,"end":15687.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15688.414718750002,"end":15691.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15691.739093750002,"end":15694.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15695.738468750002,"end":15701.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15701.30721875,"end":15743.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15743.089718750001,"end":15759.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15755.94846875,"end":15756.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15759.981593750003,"end":15829.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15764.031593750002,"end":15764.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15765.28034375,"end":15765.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15767.187218750001,"end":15768.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15768.030968750001,"end":15769.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15829.18596875,"end":15844.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15840.407843750003,"end":15840.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15843.63096875,"end":15845.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15845.453468750002,"end":15848.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15848.625968750002,"end":15855.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15850.161593750003,"end":15850.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15855.409718750001,"end":15872.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15857.55284375,"end":15857.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15863.15534375,"end":15863.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15864.809093750002,"end":15865.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15869.466593750003,"end":15870.310343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15870.310343750003,"end":15870.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15871.575968750003,"end":15872.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15872.79096875,"end":15872.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15872.824718750002,"end":15873.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15874.394093750001,"end":15891.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15891.809093750002,"end":15897.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15897.74909375,"end":15912.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15922.26846875,"end":15922.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15953.082218750002,"end":15953.571593750003}],"whisperx":[{"start":361.91,"end":362.051,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":541.544,"end":542.654,"text":"谢谢观看 欢迎订阅我的频道"},{"start":615.189,"end":615.27,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":671.639,"end":671.721,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":791.8,"end":796.203,"text":"谢谢观看 欢迎订阅"},{"start":845.009,"end":845.129,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":955.179,"end":955.486,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1139.69,"end":1139.77,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1346.041,"end":1346.122,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":1992.697,"end":1997.401,"text":"請報告出席人數報告全體會出席委員11人已足法定人數"},{"start":1999.225,"end":2024.444,"text":"現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀商事會議事錄禮法院第十一屆第三會期經濟委員會第十次全體委員會議事錄時間114年4月3日星期三九十二分至十二時三二十一分地點紅樓101會議室主席委員賴月榮等十三人請教委員一人列席委員蘇巧慧等二十二人列席人員經濟部部長郭志輝國家發展委員會副主任委員高千貴等主席蔡昭吉委員一人"},{"start":2024.824,"end":2045.624,"text":"報告事項一 宣讀上次會議事錄決定 確定二 邀請經濟部部長國家發展委員會主任委員及衛生福利部首長就美國實施進口產品國安調查對我國產業之影響及因應之道進行報告並備諮詢經濟部部長郭志輝及國家發展委員會副主任委員高先貴報告後委員賴樂隆等事件提出諮詢"},{"start":2046.385,"end":2063.666,"text":"经由经济部部长郭志威等及其答复决定一登记发言委员除不在场者外其余均已发言完毕询答结束二文陈冠廷及黄杰所提书面质询列入记录刊登公报三书面质询和未及答复部分请相关单位于一周内以书面答复并赴资本会散会宣布完毕"},{"start":2067.774,"end":2083.546,"text":"現在繼續進行討論事項請一併宣讀討論事項一 審查本院委員林怡瑾等22人擬據《東北保護法》部分條件修正草案案二 本院委員李一林等16人分別擬據《東北保護法》第10條條件修正草案案"},{"start":2084.446,"end":2099.088,"text":"動物保護法第25條及第25條之一調完修正草案4.本院委員張志文等16人擬拒動物保護法第10條調完修正草案5.本院委員劉建國等16人擬拒動物保護法部分調完修正草案6.本院委員"},{"start":2100.009,"end":2122.99,"text":"本院台灣民眾黨黨團拟據《動物保護法》第25條之二條人修正草案7.本院委員林鄭娜等21人拟據《動物保護法》第14條之一第14條之二及第30條條人修正草案8.本院委員徐巧欣等17人拟據《動物保護法》部分條人修正草案9.本院委員鄭天才等16人拟據《動物保護法》第2條及第10條條人修正草案"},{"start":2124.391,"end":2153.283,"text":"10.本院委員李坤誠等22人拟據《動物保護法》部分條件修正查案11.本院委員廖新祥等19人拟據《動物保護法》部分條件修正查案12.本院台灣民眾黨黨團拟據《動物保護法》部分條件修正查案13.本院委員羅廷維等18人拟據《動物保護法》部分條件修正查案14.本院委員郭玉琴等16人拟據《動物保護法》部分條件修正查案15.本院委員楊瓊瑩等21人拟據《動物保護法》第25條及第25條之1條件修正查案"},{"start":2154.363,"end":2161.424,"text":"16.博焱委員陳廷飛等18人擬拒《動物保護法》第20條及第25條條件修正查案17."},{"start":2161.424,"end":2166.425,"text":"博焱委員林思敏等18人擬拒《動物保護法》部分條件修正查案18."},{"start":2166.425,"end":2171.266,"text":"博焱委員洪孟凱等16人擬拒《動物保護法》部分條件修正查案19."},{"start":2171.266,"end":2176.707,"text":"博焱民眾黨黨團擬拒《動物保護法》第2條及第5條條件修正查案20."},{"start":2176.707,"end":2180.848,"text":"博焱委員游浩等23人擬拒《動物保護法》第25條之1條件修正查案"},{"start":2181.408,"end":2191.725,"text":"第21至第24案為本院委員、院員之等17人分別擬據《高屋保護法》第10條條件修正草案案《高屋保護法》增訂第14條之3條草案案"},{"start":2193.468,"end":2211.469,"text":"動物保護法第25條條件修正草案案動物保護法第25條之二條件修正草案案 二十五本院委員蘇喬二等十七人擬拒動物保護法部分條件修正草案案 二十六本院委員吳佩儀等十七人擬拒動物保護法第22條之四條件修正草案案 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2214.639,"end":2231.625,"text":"本日議程所列討論事項動物保護法部分條文修正草案共計有26位委員提案那現在按照委員來到案的到委員會的順序我們首先先請洪孟凱委員做提案說明"},{"start":2238.629,"end":2268.25,"text":"好 主席各位先進今天我們經濟委員會在針對動物保護法的一個修法感謝謝一鳳召委特別排案動物保護法從民國87年11月4號公布實施以來歷經15次的修正這法令可以說是我國在動物保護動物福利以及相關飼養管理責任上重要的基礎隨著社會對於動物權利的日益提升民眾期待越來越高也因此我們也看到在現行法制面上面要有更"},{"start":2269.211,"end":2288.308,"text":"與時俱進的作為來符合國人的期待尤其是對於動物飼養的管理收容機制的完善以及棄養行為的處理目前仍存在制度面上面的困難也因此在這一次我們特別有針對動物保護法修正草案裡面"},{"start":2289.309,"end":2305.471,"text":"本席提出來希望能夠達成四大面向第一有利於動保檢查員的執法第二提升國人對於動物保護的意識以及第三加強事主的責任提高棄養動物的罰則以及第四"},{"start":2306.332,"end":2327.414,"text":"強化動物利用以及虐待傷害之管理及苛責特別跟說明我們與院版不同的地方是在於修正條文第10條灌水牛事件過去常常有不肖業者用灌水的方式來侵害牛隻所以我們也要明定除了醫療目的外不得已"},{"start":2328.135,"end":2350.615,"text":"不以屠宰場的場域為限均不得對經濟動物居於灌水灌食或是捆綁等行為第二修正條例第18條新增其他補習或是進修教育機構禁止未經監督及專業訓練的動物實驗課程避免不必要的動物犧牲還有我們也希望能夠修正24條跟29條強化動物科學運用機構的管理"},{"start":2355.287,"end":2375.303,"text":"尊重動物生命保護動物以及維護動物福利已經是普世價值也是我國社會跟人民的共識也因此我常說人是萬物之靈但人絕非不是高高在上我們要跟動物一起學習怎麼樣跟社會和睦相處以及共享地球這個資源"},{"start":2376.644,"end":2405.496,"text":"本次經濟委員會的排審非常重要希望進入實質討論再次感謝昭緯的排案也感謝我們今天在場不分藍綠所有的委員共同提出的修正版本我們希望行政部門能夠以傾聽開放的態度來充分討論每一個委員所提出的版本做最仔細的評估順利完成修法以上 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請舒巧慧委員做提案說明"},{"start":2412.93,"end":2425.401,"text":"好 謝謝主席本席提案二要的說就是一 設置動物保護警察二 成立動物保護基金三 對動物提供更嚴密的保護四 對違法施以更嚴厲的處罰動物保護法自1998年制定以來已經修正了15次"},{"start":2433.427,"end":2451.478,"text":"這麼頻繁的修正代表動物保護的觀念不斷在改進也代表原先的立法還不夠周全造成施行結果無法達到尊重動物生命保護動物及確保動物福利的目的因此本席在本屆再度提出修正案第一設置動物保護警察"},{"start":2452.338,"end":2475.599,"text":"动物是具有感知能力的生命而根据研究虐待动物与家庭暴力犯罪有高度的关联性基于这两个理由先进国家通常会将防止虐待动物列为治安重点更重要的是动物保护案件的侦办涉及专业建议比照先进国家的做法设置专业的动物保护警察"},{"start":2476.44,"end":2500.565,"text":"第二,成立动物保护基金,透过稳定的裁员来改善目前动物保护的重大困境,包括受虐、受伤动物的救治、动物收容环境的改善、游荡动物的安置与保护等。第三,对动物提供更严密的保护,包括放宽虐待动物的定义、明定饲养的设备与方式、增订经营动物贩卖的规定等等。"},{"start":2501.425,"end":2528.682,"text":"第四對違法施以更嚴厲的處罰明定虐待動物行為人及因受處罰不論動物之生理上是否實質受到傷害加重傷害動物使動物受到傷害之處罰並在區分情節重大致動物發生重傷死亡的結果者加重其責就此本席願擬據動物保護法部分條文的修正案懇請各位立院同仁支持"},{"start":2530.776,"end":2534.197,"text":"好謝謝我們現在請羅廷慧委員做提案說明"},{"start":2548.953,"end":2576.324,"text":"好 謝謝主席大家早安我想這個所以社會對於動物保護意識的一個提升那現行的這個動保法其實部分的一些規定已經不足以回應整個所有的食物的一個需求跟社會的一個期待所以這一次也希望透過我們的部分草案的一個修訂能夠來強化第一包含飼主的一個責任另外還有管理動物相關的一些產業以及提升收容所的量能"},{"start":2576.94,"end":2590.135,"text":"那明確禁止虐待的一個行為跟規範動物交換贈與的一些行為另外還有保障實驗動物的一個福利並賦予動物保護檢察員也就是動檢員的一些司法警察權"},{"start":2591.226,"end":2620.174,"text":"那來全面促進動物的一個福利跟保護那首先呢這些重點包含第一個就是強化飼主的責任明確的飼養的一個規範然後來明定所謂的這個飼主應該要符合動物的天性的飼養的環境還有照顧的一個措施並且具體的規範基本的一個照顧的原則那禁止棄養另外呢在飼主呢在為寵物進行結紮等等的一些責任來強化飼主的一個責任跟義務"},{"start":2622.076,"end":2631.006,"text":"那第二點呢包含就是有效的管理動物相關的一些產業強化專業人員的一個能力跟寵物登記的一個責任那要求這個經營寵物"},{"start":2633.08,"end":2655.696,"text":"買賣業者必須要設置專任或者是專業的一個技術人員並且在每年要接受所謂的值錢的訓練落實登記跟許可的一個制度強化源頭的一個寵物的管理那另外在經營寵物食品業者的部分在整個所有的食品業的食品的包裝要明確的標示所謂的這個寵物食品的一個成分"},{"start":2656.116,"end":2680.155,"text":"那避免使用有害的一些物質那同時也要求現在網路的一些平台的業者也要配合提供規規的一個證據的檢舉加強整個所有網路對於寵物食品的安全的管理那第三個部分呢包含充實公共的公立的一個收容所的一個量能那我想這個收容所的量能一直以來也是非常大的一個問題"},{"start":2681.175,"end":2692.608,"text":"那如何要提升這個收容所的一個設施以及人力的一個資源並且授權中央主管機關負責來做評鑑跟公告的一個結果同時我們也希望政府能夠寬列動物保護的預算"},{"start":2695.066,"end":2719.872,"text":"以及專款專用來強化公部門在推動動保的一個效能那第四點就是保障動物的一個福利要明確的定義虐待的行為並且修正處罰的一些規定那將虐待動物的一個行為擴大到對於動物的生理或心理造成傷害痛苦緊迫以及恐懼的等等的不當的行為那麼另外還包含禁止有棄養或虐待紀錄者在飼養動物的"},{"start":2722.455,"end":2729.683,"text":"明確的黑名單以及灰名單的一個定義那另外再來第五點是禁止以賭博娛樂遊戲"},{"start":2731.414,"end":2759.703,"text":"以及營業以及宣傳等方式來做動物的交換或贈餘那這部分也是要抑止所謂的這個就是取得動物之後的一些棄養以及不當的一個問題那第六點保障實驗動物的一個福利那麼我們修法的第15條是希望能夠優先以非動物的替代的方式能夠貫徹減量替代以及精緻化的一個原則能夠促進科學研究"},{"start":2760.519,"end":2775.613,"text":"當中對於實驗動物的福利跟尊重以及這個保障那第七點其實剛剛有兩位委員也特別提到就是我們的動保警察的部分那這個部分我們希望這個農業部會同這個內政部能夠警政署來辦"},{"start":2777.659,"end":2799.026,"text":"訂定這個辦法能夠來強化對動物保護執行力以及執法力的一個期待那就是針對以上幾點我們希望能夠在現今我們的這個動保法的一個修法當中能夠真正落實對動物的福祉的一個照顧以上好謝謝我們現在請羅廷瑞委員做提案說明"},{"start":2806.823,"end":2825.528,"text":"好 感謝召委排審動保法在民國87年公佈實行以後我們歷經了這麼多次的修正成為我國動物保護福利及飼養最關鍵重要的一個法律基礎然而隨著社會一直不斷的逐漸對動保的意識提升還有科技的進步"},{"start":2826.488,"end":2848.184,"text":"我們近年來對於虐待動物、棄養動物、非法繁殖還有不當飼養以及網路許多的事件頻繁的在網路上、社會上曝光我們可以顯現出整個法制還有諸多的不足希望能夠與時俱進我們全面保障的動物基本權益以及福利"},{"start":2849.005,"end":2876.584,"text":"更希望能夠有效的抑制違法的行為特別是在動物飼養的管理收容的體系棄養的行為處理以及動物流向的管理網路平台的責任動物科學應用的機構監督還有相關等方面現行的規範我覺得還有明顯的一個缺口能夠希望再透過每一次的修法來加以補強"},{"start":2877.905,"end":2905.188,"text":"為此我們尊重生命提升國人對動物生命的價值的認識強化動物福利保障整個體系完整事主的責任我們更希望本法在部分條文修正來回應社會的期待健全動物保護的一個機制實現我們能夠跟動物和平共存我們更希望在這一次我所提出的版本能夠在整個"},{"start":2906.349,"end":2917.737,"text":"我們看到明顯的缺口能夠來補上也非常拜託我們所有立法委員一起來努力謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請李昆城委員做提案說明"},{"start":2927.432,"end":2941.561,"text":"謝謝主席今天排審這個動保法不過今天只有我們委員的版本看起來沒有行政院的版本行政院版其實在112年的時候有提出來那時候是68條68條那時候要做修正後來發現範圍太大了所以就濃縮濃縮到具有28條是具有社會高度共識的這個是在113年的時候提出來的"},{"start":2954.15,"end":2972.976,"text":"那但是呢現在已經是114年了那我覺得說這個農業部這個腳步還要再加快因為到現在這個我們都還是只有這個我們委員的版本還沒有這個行政院版的版本好那就以上就這一個本席所提出來動保法的修正案大概有六個面向來做以上的說明跟報告"},{"start":2973.496,"end":2996.372,"text":"那第一個就是說為保障多元寵物物種的動物福利那我們針對寵物進行分類然後並依各分類的物種的管理需求採取分級管理的措施那第二個就是說納管民間所設置的動物收容所或以非營利為目的的飼養犬貓達一定規模以上的大量的飼養戶因為這個有些"},{"start":3000.015,"end":3022.512,"text":"這個飼養戶的確是蠻多的 他甚至比這個可能比官方的收容所都還要多了那這部分要怎麼樣去納管 那請這個農業部要稍微考量一下那第三呢擴大進食基於經濟目的 以動物進行交換或贈與行為的這個樣態那我想說這一個這個修正條文農業部他有提出回應 那基本上是同意的"},{"start":3023.492,"end":3051.723,"text":"但是有一些跟民間商業文化或是說民眾的活動只有相關的再請農業部再去做考量第四點就是說在網路上散佈虐待動物資訊非法繁殖或買賣犬貓等違法網頁的資訊附有限制瀏覽或移除違法網頁內容且保存相關資料的義務這一條是新增第五個"},{"start":3052.768,"end":3079.082,"text":"完善寵物食品標示及廣告宣稱的管理規定那授權這個中央主管機關訂定寵物食品安全管理法那不過現在這個農業部已經有這個預告這個有這個寵物食品管理法那這個是在183年9月5號預告的那現在也114年的5月了希望這個寵物食品管理法能夠儘快送到這個我們立法院來第二點呢這個"},{"start":3081.363,"end":3103.172,"text":"加重宰殺故意傷害動物致其肢體嚴重殘缺或重要器官功能喪失行為者的刑度我想這個大部分委員提案都有這個共識但是這個刑度要如何加重那可能請農業部跟相關單位再做個討論那以上說明 謝謝現在請楊瓊英委員做提案說明"},{"start":3112.366,"end":3139.885,"text":"謝謝主席 楊瓊瑜發言針對於主席所排定今天的法案那巡檔本席給予高度的肯定那本院委員楊瓊瑜 羅廷偉 洪孟凱等21人有鑒於惡意傷害動物致使傷之事件屢見不鮮引起了社會的公憤那實務上因虐傷動物案件之判定"},{"start":3140.946,"end":3147.713,"text":"標準非常的嚴苛 導致許多明顯有虐待動物逝死的情況卻沒有辦法依照動物保護法來懲處 使有修法的必要並刪除動物需有負數之前提本席認為傷害就是傷害 沒有說要達到負數才能夠嚴懲"},{"start":3162.947,"end":3191.724,"text":"那增加暴力以及实施其他凌虐方式呢致动物死亡情节重大者也因相关的罚则来论处以减缓虐待动物事件发生落实动物权益的维护所以凝聚了动物保护法第25条及25条之一修正草案那也敬请大家来支持其中最重要的第25条呢也就是罚金的部分由原先的20万"},{"start":3192.945,"end":3214.421,"text":"到300萬為上限了我們調整到200萬為上限了那麼調整為30萬元以上300萬元以下的罰金那特別也就是原本的這個條文是致動物肢體嚴重殘缺或重要器官功能喪失那本席希望能夠改為"},{"start":3215.362,"end":3244.461,"text":"修正為致動物肢體或器官功能損傷損傷而不是整個喪屍這個也希望得到同仁以及行政部門的支持那麼25條之一最重要的就從剛剛本席所說的是致複數動物死亡情節重大者才能夠處一年以上五年以下的有期徒刑那併合法金那同時呢本席在這個25條之一是提案修正"},{"start":3245.782,"end":3269.679,"text":"使用药物枪械暴力或施以其他凌虐方式致动物死亡者希望修正如此能够好好的真正的维护保护我们的动物以上建言希望在修法的过程到时候我们在做整个法案的讨论时希望能够得到行政部门的一个同意跟各位同仁谢谢"},{"start":3270.66,"end":3276.039,"text":"谢谢我们现在请台湾民众党团一并说明三项提案要旨"},{"start":3288.407,"end":3309.447,"text":"很高興今天大家草野不分草野大家都為了動物保護一起來努力台灣民眾黨為了深化我國動物保護理念提升動物的福利並且是跟國際動保的潮流接軌所以我們這次提出了動保法修正草案我們有兩個非常先進的立法"},{"start":3310.424,"end":3337.935,"text":"第一個我們非常重視動物的福利層次所以台灣民眾黨特別重視動物的安養我們明確的徵定動物的長照規範我們要針對年長患有慢性疾病或者是長期傷產的動物我們要提供安寧跟中老的照顧這展現我們對生命尊嚴的一個重視"},{"start":3339.195,"end":3356.229,"text":"另外也有一個非常先進的一個立法就是為了要保護這個動物啊如果有發生騷擾傷害內帶棄養動物這個行為經過法院判決確定者我們要求要接受心理輔導"},{"start":3358.203,"end":3378.384,"text":"就是內帶動物者經過法院判決確定要接受心理輔導以預防他再犯進一步落實動物的保護這是兩個經過台灣民眾黨多次討論以後推動動物的長照第二個對於內帶動物者要求心理輔導這是兩個很先進的一個立法另外重點包括我們對於"},{"start":3379.685,"end":3395.978,"text":"動物病例進行擴充特別是在經濟的這個動物實驗動物跟寵物這個分類裡面我們新增一個繁殖就是確保動物從一開始出生的時候到中老他各個生命週期都在受到保護包括在繁殖這個階段另外呢這個"},{"start":3398.462,"end":3413.042,"text":"我們發現有一個很嚴重問題就是有些人用自行車或者動力交通工具或者是個人輔具他是用動物去做一個牽引所以我們在這個第五條裡面我明列的這個明定就是"},{"start":3413.763,"end":3437.152,"text":"包括動力交通工具 自行車跟個人行距皆不得用寵物來牽引以防止他有時候高速牽引導致動物的受傷而且一方面也是保障我們其他行人的安全另外對於違反動保法規定的行為我們這次修法要加強執法權的行使前線包括明確授權給主管機關跟動保的保護員你可以進入"},{"start":3440.433,"end":3465,"text":"各類動物的這個場域進行稽查取締並且在必要的時候你可以採取及時的這個強制的這個措施保護動物免於受到這個危害另外我們這個法則這次也會要求要加重法則規範從犯者如果一犯再犯這個從犯者要特別加重他的有期徒刑藉以提升法律的這個威嚇力量跟執行力量"},{"start":3465.814,"end":3487.926,"text":"好 這一次的動保法修正是不分朝野我蠻期待農業部可以早一點提出這個對案共同來保護我們這個動物那這一次最主要是要建立一個周延的動物保護這個體系強化社會尊重生命這個價值更重要的也要符合國際社會的這個標準讓我們整個台灣那個動物保護整個水平是可以拉高很期待我們朝野一起來努力 謝謝"},{"start":3488.985,"end":3505.253,"text":"好 謝謝現在先確認上次會議議事錄請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤沒有的話議事錄確定我們現在請農業部陳俊濟部長就委員提案進行報告"},{"start":3517.08,"end":3530.653,"text":"謝沙偉各位委員各位女士各位先生大家早今天大院經濟委員會就我們立法委員所提的26個版本的動物保護法修正的草案進行審議農業部非常"},{"start":3536.102,"end":3560.284,"text":"榮幸能夠受邀到委員會來這邊做相關的動物保護現在目前修法的進程跟規劃的一個報告那以下僅就整個農業部所擬定的這些相關的動物保護法同時去比較我們委員提出來的26個版本去做相關的一個說明那整個大綱如下請各位參考"},{"start":3561.525,"end":3579.083,"text":"動物保護法其實剛才很多委員都說到了我們在民國87年立法以後經歷了15次的修正在24年間經歷了15次的修正那最近的一次是在110年進行修正但是在110年修正的過程後"},{"start":3580.393,"end":3605.396,"text":"其實我們在相關的執行面還有相關的這些委員也好或者其他的動保團體也好或執行面也好都發現說110年的版本還有一些值得去討論跟修正的一個空間那主要的一些問題包括事主責任的規定不夠明確那第二個部分是整個動物保護執法的行政的調查權的不夠"},{"start":3606.357,"end":3629.059,"text":"那第三個部分是特別是有關於對動物虐待買賣用的特種的源頭管理流向不明確那另外還有很多虐待傷害動物的嚇阻力不足那根據這樣子的一些我們外部收集到的意見所以我們在112年就啟動了就是相關的動物保護法部分的修正的草案然後同時也經過預告的動作"},{"start":3630.62,"end":3658.454,"text":"那透過預告以後其實我們獲得的更多更多的這些資訊所以我們在經過資訊的一個整理那有一個前提就是因為動物保護法可能不同的人的見解不一樣我們是以有共識的條文先納入那如果說還沒有達到共識的條文我們先就是繼續著做溝通所以我們從111年的5月16號開始開始進行我們內部的法國月審查在113年就是去年的8月16號其實已經"},{"start":3660.335,"end":3686.94,"text":"將我們內部的就是版本已經轉到行政院去審議那行政院到目前為止我們所知道行政院已經完成了所有的審查的動作只差我們的院會做報告以後就可以送到立法院了所以我真的也很期待就是在下個月就在這個月應該5月5月就應該能夠送進立法院來進行訂我們的我們委員的版本來進行審議那"},{"start":3689.6,"end":3715.561,"text":"整個我們抱怨的這些版本裡面大概有五個對策那主要的目標跟所有的委員都一致的就是我們希望說能夠針對寵物的飼主責任更加重然後對於我們動物的福祉能夠更精進而且更明確所以這五個策略裡面包括了加強飼主的責任然後提升動物收容的管理那還有講話動物的保護"},{"start":3716.181,"end":3725.821,"text":"以及精進寵物的產業管理那更重要的是我們希望說透過這次的修法能夠給予動保檢查人員的一個執法的一個權利"},{"start":3727.52,"end":3751.849,"text":"那我們也針對委員所提出來的26個版本我們也去做了相關的分析然後逐一的跟我們的版本做一些比對那這次經濟委員會總共提案的總共有26個版本那這26個版本如果我們把它分類的話大概它修法的重點大概分為六項包括事主責任動物收容管理的議題動物保護的環境的議題然後產業管理議題還有"},{"start":3756.992,"end":3772.968,"text":"凍檢人員執法的一個賦權還有嚇阻虐待動物這些議題那以下就這六個議題我做一些說明那第一個部分是在事主的責任的部分那事主的責任的部分大概總共有13個版本"},{"start":3774.369,"end":3795.578,"text":"13個版本是跟事主責任是有關的那主要的修正的重點包括不得為寵物佩戴電擊的一個項圈還有動力交通工具不能用電力的交通工具去牽引那同時也要更明確事主的夠養條件以及要完善寵物的犬貓的這些管理的一個制度"},{"start":3796.118,"end":3803.913,"text":"那這些委員所提的版本最主要是在強化市主的責任來保障多元寵物的動物福祉那與本院報"},{"start":3805.578,"end":3833.196,"text":"本部抱怨的版本是相符所以我們也期待說這個方式能夠支持去推動那第二個部分是在收容動物收容管理的部分那動物收容管理的部分有委員的版本有兩個版本是跟這個有關的那包括就是剛才民眾黨團所提到的就是正列動物收容所具長期照顧失能動物的法定義務然後另外是正列中央地方執行救援之法定的義務那"},{"start":3834.657,"end":3862.884,"text":"以本部來講以實務面來講其實目前我們最大的一個問題是在動物收容的量能嚴重的不足那以現在的規範就是在特定的一個情況之下可以做相關的人道的處理的方式那如果說要用長期照顧失能的動物那勢必要有更多的這些收容所如果沒有更多的收容所的話可能會導致整個收容"},{"start":3863.564,"end":3875.519,"text":"的一個一個周轉率會降低然後影響到我們另外一個議題就是遊蕩犬的族群的控制會產生負面的影響那同時如果增列相關的法定義務事實上很多"},{"start":3876.713,"end":3900.841,"text":"動物的救援其實已經在做了如果說把它列入法定義務的話那就會變成必須要遍列更多的一個人力跟經費那這個部分在建請我們委員在版本討論的時候能夠有所大家一起來討論這個議題那第三個部分是有關於動物保護環境的部分那動物保護環境的部分總共有11個版本是"},{"start":3901.941,"end":3917.636,"text":"是跟這個議題是有關的就是擴大建築基於經濟目的以動物進行交換或證語的行為樣態那這個部分我想基本上本部的這相關的動保法修正也是朝這個方向來做但是因為"},{"start":3918.837,"end":3946.557,"text":"有限於現在目前部分的商業文化跟民眾的休閒的一個生活的一個習慣所以我們希望說建議說有一些但書的規定來授權中央主管機關令公告不受禁止的條件活動跟場所那這個議題其實在公眾討論的時候也有非常多的討論那我們也希望說這個重點也許在後續的這些逐條討論的時候大家都可以來討論"},{"start":3948.473,"end":3965.887,"text":"然後接下來是有關於也是動物保護議題裡面的部分那這個部分有七個委員是七個版本是跟針對這個有關的就是含金屬材質彈簧蓄壓式的套索陷阱不得使用那非經狀態主管機關的許可不得製造販賣陳列或輸出入"},{"start":3967.788,"end":3981.98,"text":"那我想增列禁止使用製造販賣或陳列輸出路的這些陷阱套走是跟本部的立場是相符的但是可能我們在處理這一條的時候可能要跟現有的野保法"},{"start":3983.641,"end":4004.655,"text":"之間的一個競合我們必須討論那野保法裡面現在的這些山豬調等因為基於原住民的狩獵的需要跟有一些農民妨害那個就是阻止這些農作物受損的還有部分的還是可以使用的所以未來討論這個議題可能要討論到相關的跟野保法的一個競合的問題"},{"start":4007.492,"end":4030.872,"text":"那在動物保護環境裡面還有一個重要的就是委員所提出來的版本所提出來的明確動物收容內得安樂死的動物的要件那這個部分我想我們也是支持這樣的一個相符但是我們希望說相關的文字也許在委員討論的版本裡面可以去做一個相關的文字的一個調整"},{"start":4036.36,"end":4051.186,"text":"那接下來還是動物保護環境的議題裡面那總共委員的版本裡面所提到的是要加強加驗我國動物實驗科學管理的一個相關的一個條文那事實上我們"},{"start":4053.597,"end":4081.258,"text":"國內的實驗動物的一個管理包括3R的部分那其實已經在各個相關的實驗單位有相關的一個自主性的一個管理同時也要求實驗單位公佈他的實驗計畫的資訊的時候可能會涉及到一些智慧產產權問題那這個部分可能後續在討論的時候是必須要解決的所以在這邊我們是建議應該要有一些更多的討論跟共識以後才納入相關的法條裡面"},{"start":4084.094,"end":4105.482,"text":"接下來有關於動物保護環境議題裡面委員所提到的是要保障多元的寵物物種的動物福利然後民定中央主管機關得依寵物的物種實性、習性、生理需求等生物特性等對寵物進行分類並進行相關的一個管理"},{"start":4107.103,"end":4117.255,"text":"那這個部分與我們本部的立場是一致的所以我們也期待說這個法條在後續討論的時候能夠順利的通過那接下來第四個部分是有關於"},{"start":4118.926,"end":4142.468,"text":"寵物產業的一個管理那寵物產業的管理所提案的委員也相當的多那其中其中有關於經營寵物業者應任專任人員然後要接受在職訓練然後特別強化繁殖買賣特定寵物的源頭的流向管理以及寵物食品不得含有變質腐敗或有異物"},{"start":4143.83,"end":4167.548,"text":"含有義務然後中央主管機關指定不得使用的物質也不能含在裡面那同時未經許可擅自經營的時候必須要有相關的一個罰款那這個部分都與本部的修正報院的修正的條文是一致的所以我們可以建議說相關後續的討論的時候我們就做相關的文字修正的部分"},{"start":4168.268,"end":4187.086,"text":"那接下來是寵物常務管理裡面委員所提到的要強化寵物食品的安全管理那這個安全管理裡面上次也跟在上個會期開始其實也跟委員報告也依委員的要求我們將原來動保法裡面的寵物食品的這些條文"},{"start":4187.646,"end":4206.659,"text":"我們已經把它變成一個寵物食品管理法的一個專法用專法的方式去處理因為寵物食品的管理從邊境一直到生產製造到產品的標示到販售它有很長的一個供應鏈必須用專法的方式去管理那這個部分我想"},{"start":4208.224,"end":4225.714,"text":"寵物食品的專法我們預計會在5月底就會送到行政院那我也期待說在這個下個會期能夠送進立法院來進行相關的審議所以建議這個相關有關於寵物食品的專法那個管理的條文可以在專法內一併來討論"},{"start":4228.117,"end":4249.833,"text":"然後接下來是有關於動保檢查人員的部分那相關的動保檢查人員的部分那我們曾經與各個部會去討論那我們希望說在這個檢查人員行政調查的職權跟我們的立場是一致的可以做相關的這些文字修正應該就可以執行但是"},{"start":4251.325,"end":4268.396,"text":"有關於動保檢查人員的部分因為有牽涉到內政部的一個職權的管理然後也經過多次的討論那我們希望說這個部分可能可以用其他的方式來替代不宜說直接貿然的去推動這個相關的動保檢查人力"},{"start":4270.063,"end":4285.22,"text":"那接下來是有關嚇阻虐待動物的部分那委員有修正就是加重這種宰殺故意傷害等相關的一個刑度那這個部分跟本部的立場是一致的我們也支持這個法能夠盡速的一個推動"},{"start":4286.55,"end":4302.284,"text":"那有關於走私動物致死被消費的形式規定的部分那我們的立場是因為走私有應該回歸到相關的走私的作用法裡面如果動保法在修正的話可能相關的這個法之間有相關的一個競合的問題"},{"start":4303.618,"end":4321.777,"text":"那接下來是賀祖的有緣提案有關於增訂虐待傷害動物的行為人必須接受一些所謂的評估然後做心理跟教育的一個輔導那這個部分其實牽扯到人的部分牽扯到心理治療專業及心理矯正的部分"},{"start":4322.818,"end":4346.78,"text":"這個部分可能必須要洽我們的衛福部相關的一個意見是不是說在相關的法裡面已經有這樣子的一個條文那同時當你去做受刑人的心理評估的時候其實可以回歸到監獄的矯正處理相關的作用法那這個部分我想後續也可能在條文討論的時候可以請法務部來做一起的討論"},{"start":4348.181,"end":4372.796,"text":"那最後我想也非常感謝我們的委員這麼熱心因為我們的寵物是很多人的朋友也是家人那我們期待說大家一起針對我們過去所做的不足的地方能夠透過這次動物保護法的條文的修正讓我們的動物保護的制度能夠更與時俱進然後更能夠就是朝向動物福利的國家邁向以上謝謝"},{"start":4374.717,"end":4376.378,"text":"現在請登記第一位林黛嬅委員做詢問"},{"start":4411.735,"end":4412.285,"text":"好有請部長"},{"start":4419.639,"end":4448.295,"text":"好 部長您在這個報告當中有提到這個行政院的版本但本席認為是不是真的能夠解決相關現實面的成科的問題本席是強烈的質疑第一個你說加強事主的責任你說凍檢員的執法的賦權以及提升動物收容管理好 光是動物收容管理我剛才很清楚的聽到幾個提案委員"},{"start":4448.695,"end":4471.836,"text":"不管是郭育晶郭委員或者是民眾黨的版本那你們都說你們是支持納管民間東部收容所的可是考量到地方行政能量及無法取得合法用地之狗場退場的困境那也表示說無解啊所以你這個法通過之後你對於整個收容量的增加"},{"start":4473.171,"end":4492.028,"text":"你沒有辦法所以還是一樣啊在收容所裡面還是很擁擠啊那這個民間的部門還是很雜亂啊那我為什麼提到這一點你們這個江文權江市長我剛才還到他的位置跟他確認他是非常非常清楚在12年前的時候本席就提出了"},{"start":4492.648,"end":4516.272,"text":"在這個陳寶基主委的時候我希望能夠協助你們我也一直倡議針對民間收容所的部分我如何在他的設施設備硬體當中給予導入因為包括你的汙染啊廢水處理的汙染啊你的排泄物的汙染啊包括你的噪音啊他對於鄰居的部分是不是那個地點適合啊"},{"start":4517.272,"end":4523.818,"text":"然後呢這個包括他我呢一直希望導入家福系統對於我們人當中的家福系統的一個制度我們有哪些專業的人力有獸醫師的配合有檢查這個你進來當中有一些該有的一個動物福利的相關的這個人員的"},{"start":4539.211,"end":4561.521,"text":"導入在這個民間的狗場裡面或貓場裡面的去扶植他們的專業人力但是你們沒做你們申請下來之後擅自挪用本席的主張全部投入公立收容所的修建然後對於各個民間場域的專業人力你有愛心不代表有專業啊"},{"start":4562.95,"end":4577.783,"text":"但是你們也沒有投入剛才文泉這個師長是說因為當初爭取的中期計畫行政院是給了六成 六成還是可以做事啊你光是經過這12年如果你真的用心輔導私人的這個"},{"start":4579.905,"end":4589.614,"text":"流浪狗的收容的地方 你早就可以做出一些神蹟了你們沒有 可是即使你到現在你聽到你的這個質詢 聽到你的報告我認為還是一樣 陳柯依舊你沒有什麼作為啦 然後你說加強事主的責任好 那我們來看今天本席 我提出來了"},{"start":4599.884,"end":4602.906,"text":"這個我認為TNR我沒有反對TNR聽好我沒有反對TNR我認為農業部帶做的是TNR之後的配套的管理措施是沒有的所以你看這個是"},{"start":4630.024,"end":4644.704,"text":"的選擇的襲擊巢穴這是學者專家他在保護他又有那個監視系統怎麼發現到怎麼會是出現流浪狗來把他襲擊的所以這是學者專家有在保護的敏感區域其實是有的"},{"start":4645.245,"end":4673.374,"text":"所以這個部分你們是可以介入做相關的加強巡檢所以流浪狗的管流浪犬的管理證明你們如果採用TNR補妝絕育回治意圖是要降低流浪犬隻的繁殖數量但是我們變成流浪犬隻卻成群結隊的攻擊其他的民眾或保育類的動物那我們來看這則新聞比特犬在4年前你們就把比特犬列為指定禁止飼養的輸"},{"start":4674.634,"end":4679.056,"text":"輸入的動物 飼養或輸入的動物這個政策好不好也好啊但陪他有沒有 沒有啊所以你們對於現有持有比特犬的飼主你要求他說你要來登記那真的登記了嗎好 那反而沒有登記的這個政策一出之後變成什麼大量的比特犬大量的棄養"},{"start":4700.966,"end":4716.777,"text":"所以他可能棄養之後他自己再跟其他的物種衍生了一些生育的問題所以那另外的流氧這個比特捲的氏族那你有沒有教育他也沒有啊所以光是你這個版本說加強氏族責任你們院版本出來之後會改善這樣的問題嗎我想可能等期點出來看你們會不會去做了好再來我們第一線的人員缺乏動物處置的專業我不講動檢員"},{"start":4731.086,"end":4752.17,"text":"好我不講洞檢委我就先講這個我不要講到那麼高層次你看了這個是今年的判決農業局啊桃園農業局的技工啊他遭判八個月但是他大概是在20大概前兩年的時候發生的就是東非的廢廢啊遭獵人獵殺六佛尊的一頭東非的廢廢遭圍捕食重擔身亡啦對獵人發出指令的是桃園市的農業局的前技工"},{"start":4760.651,"end":4784.165,"text":"但是獵人是沒事的 技工是有事的我認為為這位技工報平的地方是他找誰 他找獵人 獵人的專長是什麼他就是在獵殺動物 但是你說他不找獵人我們有專業的人力是安全捕抓的動物捕抓員嗎"},{"start":4785.646,"end":4802.736,"text":"安全捕捉的動物捕捉員這件事情有嗎沒有所以你叫公務人員他真的要去抓的時候他要叫誰沒有專業的安全捕捉的動物人員他請了獵人獵人不是動物不是安全捕捉的專業他們是獵殺動物的專業"},{"start":4805.618,"end":4812.905,"text":"所以這個是很冤枉的一件事 所以如果你的本你的這個版本出來之後 洞檢員的執法賦能我不曉得能不能解決這個狀況所以我才說 只是安全普照的專業人員 還不到洞檢員的層次喔光是這樣 你讓我基層的洞保人員 洞保的公務人員要下指令的時候 他要找誰"},{"start":4831.509,"end":4846.693,"text":"連安全補助都沒有所以農業部在規劃流浪犬隻的政策的時候忽略民眾或動物造成的負面影響而地方農政 這是你們中央地方農政雖然有動保處但是缺乏面對緊急突發狀況的動物保護的專業訓練沒有專業的"},{"start":4851.194,"end":4872.919,"text":"裝置器具也沒有相關的配套反映出中央地方政府對動保議題是什麼頭痛醫頭腳透音腳啊其實你的版本出來還是這樣啊所以本席有幾個建議啊第一個檢討現行的TNR政策禁止將流浪犬移入特定生態敏感區譬如石斧啦草蕭啊等保育動物"},{"start":4874.119,"end":4892.309,"text":"物種這個出沒的區域而且這些區域要強化專能巡檢針對這個動物流浪動物與保育野生動物的衝突你要制定前期的預防跟整合管理真的聽好 第二對於遭棄養且居高攻擊性的流浪物種尤其還要寒"},{"start":4893.61,"end":4907.588,"text":"他去混種衍生的犬隻喔這個東西你們怎麼去找出來所以制定於有別TNR的具體措施也就這些攻擊的物種你不能再實行TNR了把它掘渣之後再放置棄養的話我抓到再放置你要怎麼的管理啊"},{"start":4911.272,"end":4934.018,"text":"這才是重點啦 而且對現有的事主 既然你已經允許他保有他現有的這些比特權的部分那這些事主你要怎麼的訓練啊要不然他只要 他這個東西就是比特權 他站在後事主把他載在後面 天窗一開 他就是這樣跑出來去咬旁邊的機車主啊"},{"start":4936.317,"end":4955.688,"text":"所以這個是你們要去預防的第三個 中央統籌辦理 提升地方執行人員我說中央統籌你不要各地方政府在自己去辦因為到底什麼叫做安全的動物保護的專業訓練安全捕抓只是其中一項"},{"start":4957.27,"end":4976.391,"text":"所以對中央同學你要提升到中央才能是統一辦理全國只要有關相關地方執法的人員他的法規的常識他的專業的訓練通通都要有提高緊急事件的應變能力令第一線執行人員有足夠的職能履行部長你怎麼看"},{"start":4977.66,"end":4995.166,"text":"這三個建議非常謝謝委員的一些建議您所提的這些建議的確是一個問題而且我認為這邊寫的這三點主張我認為在不修法的過程中我們也應該要做那特別在那個TNR的部分我們現在已經就是有一個SOP就是說"},{"start":4995.726,"end":5010.752,"text":"在生態敏感區跟環境敏感區的部分我們在回治的時候就不去往那個地方去做回治這第一個部分第二個部分就是具高攻擊性的這些犬隻包括他的雜交犬後代的部分我也認同就是說"},{"start":5011.432,"end":5032.502,"text":"它跟有攻擊性跟沒攻擊性的它的回適的方式是絕對不一樣的所以這個部分我想不修法我們也會來做那第三個部分專業訓練我想我們也可以立即來做就是我要求我們的動保師那你對民間的收容所的部分怎麼處理那第四個部分的民間收容所我們也認同我個人認為認同這個方向但是相對的就是"},{"start":5033.602,"end":5043.484,"text":"可能要有一段的輔導期不然如果強制去納管造成衛生安全的時候沒有一個民間場如果合格的時候那個部長這樣啦我再重提請你們姜文泉姜師長提出來然後您來做核定做審查跟核定再提出一次的中長城的這個計畫而且是針對私人的這個動物保護場"},{"start":5061.688,"end":5075.594,"text":"那你一定會涉及說那個土地不是合法的用地我沒有意見你們看怎麼針對有合法用地沒有合法用地以及不能影響到周邊的居民的民眾的也不能影響到保護動物的這個部分我建議你還是提出中長程的計畫12年過了一四五成"},{"start":5083.317,"end":5110.499,"text":"本席所提的現在還是委員提出來所以這個部分你要不要這個評估一下提出中長期針對私人這個動物流浪犬貓的收容所的部分你要做一個中長程的計畫我想收容所的一個建制不管是公立的或私人的它是一致性但是後續的經費的比例可以有一部分的比例去做部長我現在是以立委的身份來支持你我知道"},{"start":5110.819,"end":5133.433,"text":"我現在是因為你公立受動用已經用了那一筆12年前我建議的部分挪用去做了我現在把你私人的 為什麼我倡議私人你要納入因為他也是你管啊有些過多的公立的部分是不是有可能也移到民間因為動物不像人啊 我人住在高雄住久了你要叫我搬到台北我會不適應啊"},{"start":5134.514,"end":5155.433,"text":"但是狗狗貓貓不是說他們沒有這個問題可是當哪一個地方他有容納的空間的時候你可以在私人跟公司之間你可以去怎麼樣的納有一個大水庫的納位我的想法是不是私人就私人公立而是公司是一體的因為我們的量要再增加這種收容的場所"},{"start":5158.035,"end":5169.303,"text":"是有限的 因為它是一個零幣設施嘛你設在哪裡人家就抗議嘛所以你只有就現有的私立的部分有可能可以納管在不影響民眾不影響保育的情況之下我們納管 環保做好"},{"start":5175.147,"end":5182.793,"text":"把水做好 把噪音做好該有的動物福利做好 做出幾個典範那這個是要你現有的預算是不夠的部長 是公司的空間要整合在一塊而不是獨立 你才有辦法去嘗試的把已經過量的公立收容所的部分 唱怎麼可能的納到民間來那民間的部分也因為有你們的輔導有愛心必定有專業 我一直強調有這個"},{"start":5203.667,"end":5217.274,"text":"包括他的動物福利的設施我最在意的就是那個污染跟噪音啊那個才是民怨之所在那你要輔導他要不然他一個人怎麼去面對那樣的污染呢排水系統的排是區域排水是地方政府在管這個污水處理這個部分也是地方政府在管可是你要不要跟他整合在管"},{"start":5224.737,"end":5252.159,"text":"要啊我們任何工廠的設立任何的機關私立的這個民宅的設立他都有法規規定你怎麼去接我地方的區域排水地方的污水系統所以你這個怎麼能夠獨立呢當然你一直都在如果你不處理私人的部分納入你公立的納管當中你永遠都沒有辦法處理解決那個量你永遠都沒有辦法去處理他那個污染跟噪音的問題好 以上 謝謝"},{"start":5256.124,"end":5276.391,"text":"謝謝 我們現在請鄭天才委員做詢答主席 委員 請部長部長好部長好 這個"},{"start":5284.81,"end":5307.471,"text":"今天的主題 動物保育法的修法 動物保護法那從原住民的觀點又不一樣從原住民文化和狩獵來看原住民以黑熊 我們就以黑熊作為為例當然各種動物又不太一樣"},{"start":5309.141,"end":5336.988,"text":"布農族看黑熊是友伴同盟尊敬恐懼大家比較不知道以為我們原住民就是專門去狩獵的其實不是這個在布農族裏的這個黑熊各不同的部落有不同的稱呼也有Dumas也有Dumas像阿美族是Dumai阿美族叫Dumai是這樣不同的一個稱呼各族群都有不同的"},{"start":5338.584,"end":5356.404,"text":"這個年輕的人他寫了一首詩黑熊是原住民生命中的一部分非常的貼切他是神話中的生命文學他被視為以人甚至比人更高一級的生命體所以這個部分這個從"},{"start":5358.922,"end":5379.821,"text":"原住民跟這個動物,野生動物之間其實上有非常多不同的一個關係好,我們看這個台灣黑熊剛才講過了,就不再講這個它是台灣唯一原產的熊類"},{"start":5382.531,"end":5392.457,"text":"這個過去被列為濱林節種野生動物但是目前已經在台灣也有200到600隻算不算還算不算濱林節種部長"},{"start":5397.316,"end":5422.629,"text":"在還沒有解除之前應該還是瀕臨絕種那現在的物種統計的情況之下它逐漸可能會變動而且我們要確定它是不是瀕臨絕種不能一個時間點看要看長期的一個監測好這個之所以黑熊會被列為瀕臨絕種主要的原因了解嗎主要的原因為什麼會越來越少"},{"start":5424.011,"end":5448.58,"text":"是以前啦 現在有比較增加了 他的族群數量越來越少那越來越少他有很多種原因包括這個棲地的問題包括我想獵捕的問題可能是非常少之有少但是可能是主要是棲地不適合他的時候造成族群的一個降低 完全正確主要是棲地我們很少獵捕這個黑熊主要是棲地事實上從1932年1932年日本"},{"start":5452.97,"end":5481.647,"text":"探險家傑川安氏的調查報告就提到土地開發導致黑熊的棲息地喪失主要是棲息地所以土地開發才是一個最重要的我之前一直也強調這個部分絕對跟不是跟原住民的狩獵有關係好我們看最近的一個情況去年"},{"start":5484.531,"end":5507.824,"text":"11月濁西鄉石坪部落海拔200到500公尺的雞舍遭黑熊入侵入侵400隻雞受損了總共有5個養雞場受到受傷害然後今年的1月"},{"start":5508.851,"end":5536.744,"text":"黑熊入侵這個養蜂場吃這個蜂蜜這個相關的這個也只有海拔這個石坪部落只有海拔317公尺這個相關的這些好今年的4月最近就這個月這個月這個部落中正濁西鄉的中正部落這個黑熊"},{"start":5539.084,"end":5562.825,"text":"這個對我們的雞還有狗都這個被侵蝕所以這個部分這個相關的這些被甚至人都受到威脅了距離住家這個被拍攝到的距離住家只有50幾公尺"},{"start":5565.115,"end":5592.706,"text":"只有50幾公尺所以對於我們的部落對我們的住家人身安全都受到很大的影響當然這些我們養的這些雞啊狗啊或是相關的這些動物都被受到嚴重的侵害所以反而現在怎麼樣我們一直講保護保護動物啊"},{"start":5594.395,"end":5620.981,"text":"現在是以這個案例來講啊怎麼樣保護我們的部落啊怎麼樣保護我們的人怎麼樣保護我們的所養殖的這些對不對所以從另外一個觀點不一樣啊所以在討論這個野生動物保護法的時候確實有它的不同的地方"},{"start":5622.368,"end":5646.476,"text":"所以這個部分當然有時候就產生一些不得不防身的地方就必須產生這些問題所以這個部分你看左西鄉的中正部落這個海拔只有170到220公尺跟早期的1000公尺以上的棲息地"},{"start":5647.312,"end":5669.806,"text":"已經不一樣了,所以要做不同的處理了所以這個部長,你看了之後有什麼樣的想法我想跟委員報告,就是在濁西鄉本身的歷次的黑熊的一個入侵到部落的範圍之內不是同一隻熊,是有不同隻熊"},{"start":5670.866,"end":5694.558,"text":"在入侵那同樣的就是說我們也非常關注就是原民部落本身的一個安全性就是有一些黑熊雖然說我們很尊重他在部落很尊重他但是必要的這些防範也是應該的所以我們透過那個生態給付的方式跟原民部落做共同的合作希望說原民部落如果發現到"},{"start":5695.919,"end":5715.749,"text":"黑熊的中繼的時候能立即通報那我們就有專業的捕捉人員能夠前往去做相關的捕捉所以只有透過這樣的一個合作方式才能夠避免我們的原民部落受到一些這些野生動物的一個攻擊事實上通報是來不及有案例我們的鄉親確實是通報"},{"start":5718.752,"end":5737.731,"text":"你們的人員其實是很演的我們也不能怪你們的人員所以這個部分這個機制怎麼樣去因應所以我們在談動物保護法的時候條文裡面怎麼樣去農業部也要去思考怎麼樣保護人類所以這個部分保護這些"},{"start":5740.404,"end":5741.364,"text":"我們現在請李玉玲委員做詢問"},{"start":5770.098,"end":5771.18,"text":"謝謝主席 請陳部長陳部長"},{"start":5780.472,"end":5806.917,"text":"部長在這幾個月都有不斷傳出說比特犬有攻擊的事件尤其是3月份在台北就有比特犬惡毒的咬人的事情那在4月份的時候又屏東又出現狗咬狗比特犬去咬柴犬結果這個柴犬傷重而離世而這個比特犬我們經過調查之後的話它是未完成寵物登記或"},{"start":5807.577,"end":5833.142,"text":"可絕育的這個情形那當然市主也因為動保法被裁罰了但是我們在2022年的3月1號我們也有要求比特犬是禁止飼養跟輸入的動物這農業部都已經做了但是現在發生了這個沒有登記完成的那有登記完成在目前造冊的有3974隻那沒有沒有"},{"start":5837.642,"end":5843.474,"text":"登記跟決議的這個比特權 你們有什麼手 有什麼方式來做這個稽查"},{"start":5844.875,"end":5867.495,"text":"我想這也是我們農業部的一個困擾就是說當我們就做禁止然後叫他們來登記的時候那一定有一些黑樹啦那這些黑樹一旦被抓到的話那等出事之後再罰就是了不是本末倒置了對 但是相對的我們一定會加強宣導透過地方政府去加強宣導那宣導的時候他不出來我們也沒辦法如果如果有人透過檢舉"},{"start":5868.876,"end":5887.942,"text":"方式或是工具手段的嗎我們現在就是說可以透過現在一直發生這種工人事件 夭壽這種悲劇的情形你不要說沒辦法不是 我剛才講沒辦法就是說永遠在登記的時候永遠有一些黑數那這些黑數我們第一個就是要讓他宣導 讓他知道"},{"start":5888.562,"end":5910.276,"text":"那他如果知道而不出來的時候那他一定會帶狗出來外面散步的時候你怎麼查然後透過沒有他散步的時候透過一些檢舉的方式通報的方式我們就可以去追蹤誰會跟你通報我想還是有一些人民看到民眾看到的時候都會來通報的部分他通報他怎麼知道這狗沒有植入晶片或者是沒有登記"},{"start":5912.401,"end":5925.108,"text":"他看到這比特權的部分如果說他沒有依照相關的規範去去做遷移的時候那相對的本身民眾就可以來通報通報的話我們地方的動保檢查人員就會去去查訪"},{"start":5926.038,"end":5943.36,"text":"一定要去稽查 因為很多黑素像這次狗咬狗的情形就是黑素好不好那因為這個動保法我們已經你們農業部已經在去年的8月已經送到行政院到現在什麼時候要送到立法院"},{"start":5944.69,"end":5972.44,"text":"我們已經質詢好幾次了欸都是巡打沒有辦法處理就是因為沒有你們的版本我跟委員報告齁我剛才在報告的時候有講我們現在動法修正在行政院已經審查完畢只在院會通過就可以送到行政院那我會盡快的跟行政院溝通能夠在下一次的院會排進去的時候五月就可以送進來你們每一次都回答我說年底就會送進來過了好幾個年了年底都沒有送進來沒有喔那個"},{"start":5974.075,"end":6001.873,"text":"因為您當召委的時候有排過一次齁那那個時候我們也如期送到行政院那行政院因為還有很多法案被排審希望你們趕快催促啦好不好趕快催促那因為本席會這麼提的話就是因為我們在動保法裡面其中的20條的第二項裡面針對有攻擊性的這個寵物出入公共場所的時候我們要有防範的措施齁不管是成人陪伴或者有要求說可以的話就要簽審嘛"},{"start":6003.574,"end":6031.091,"text":"有牽繩的方式的話那之前部長回答說因為是各縣市各自處理那我們希望統一的方式來處理那也希望說我們農業部要把這條牽繩的這部分把列入參考列入這個規範好不好我們一定把它放進去一定要列入因為這個不同的犬隻的類型大小不一樣如果飼主啊你如果說不當著飼養小狗會變惡犬"},{"start":6032.612,"end":6054.146,"text":"對不對所以一定要好好的規範好不好那接下來要討論的就是說我們的糧食的自給率的下降這個糧食自給率我們看到我們在2011年的時候有針對於我們這個糧食供需這個年報裡面也有要求說希望我們的自給率可以達到40%"},{"start":6056.067,"end":6085.622,"text":"但是逐年一直下降到現在剩下的30%那在2011年我們就訂說在2020年的話我們要達到40%現在還是沒有達到那部長在這方面的話我們可以如何去訂定我們的期程或時程能夠給這個自給率能夠提高好 謝謝委員的關心我第一個要說明的就是糧食自給率不等於糧食安全那糧食自給率它是一個進口出口之間的關係我如果減少出口增加"},{"start":6086.443,"end":6090.631,"text":"減少出口減少進口的部分 增加出口的部分那你的一收現在30%是安全嗎"},{"start":6092.267,"end":6120.645,"text":"不是 我剛才說糧食自給率是一件事情它不是說糧食自給率低我們的糧食安全就低那要看糧食安全的品項我們在糧食安全的時候我們有針對主要的糧食那主要的糧食像稻米我們的自給率是百分之百我們蔬菜是百分之八十幾所以要看我們的糧食安全是要看我們的主食跟副食的部分可是你們既然訂出這個目標是要達到百分之四十嗎那你們有預估什麼時程可以達到百分之四十我個人很坦白講"},{"start":6122.106,"end":6141.954,"text":"當年很早大概十幾年前就定在40%那個是一個願景一個目標那我們就朝向這個目標在走那現在會拉糧食製魚往下拉最主要就是我們的所有的黃小玉的飼料為主的這些原物料都是進口的對大部分的進口啊都是這個部分拉下來的"},{"start":6144.235,"end":6159.235,"text":"所以就是因為我們都依賴進口所以沒有給自給力不高那萬一有什麼環境時空背景的話讓我們進口進步來怎麼辦所以我們現在就是說我們找到糧食自給力下降是因為飼料的部分進口所以我們現在"},{"start":6160.376,"end":6174.812,"text":"做了很多對地綠色給付還有雜糧轉做就是這個目的我們希望說這些雜糧的種子能夠拉高以後那自給率就會上升我們是朝這個方向來走好所以您這樣講的話那部長因為齁這個美國這個"},{"start":6178.601,"end":6205.579,"text":"我們大部分都在美國進口這個黃小玉嘛對不對那因為黃小玉我們都依賴進口那美國這一次因為這個貿易的逆差要調高這個關稅到32%那現在雖然暫緩了90天但是要做一個談判的這個節奏在各部會的話在調整說怎麼去購買美國的那個產品那尤其是部長這邊有提到要增加對美國黃小玉的採購那請問部長"},{"start":6208.261,"end":6222.032,"text":"黃小玉的採購的話這個雜糧的部分的話我們在對黃豆跟小麥跟玉米我們的自給率非常低非常低都是0點多而已尤其是這個在2016年到2023年的話我們看到黃豆的自給率只有0.18"},{"start":6226.636,"end":6252.75,"text":"小麥的話0.35還有玉米的話才會多一點才2.98%那你看其他世界各國在鄰近我們這附近的話你看日本的話是38%他們的糧食供應是38%還有韓國的話是45%的自給率我們在這方面的話我們是不是有要提高它但是你又碰到說像美國你要提高黃小玉的擴大購買"},{"start":6254.011,"end":6278.772,"text":"增加購買的話 那你又要讓我們的農民要推廣他們對雜糧的這個轉作你特別提到的 就是說一轉對於綠色環境給付的這個計畫 一級二轉 三加三 這個部分那你要如何去讓農民能夠安心 我種的這個黃小玉可以保障他的收購價格 因為"},{"start":6279.735,"end":6299.483,"text":"你看美國的部分的話他的黃小玉在品質上或者是他價格上都比較優厚啊那農民的話你這樣子的話農民更不敢去種這個雜糧的部分啊我要跟委員報告就是說就成如你剛才說的我們自己做的我們的自有力非常低所以進口跟"},{"start":6300.283,"end":6327.519,"text":"進口跟我們自己種的它有一個平衡比在那邊以黃豆來講我們的黃豆最主要是實用可是我們進口用的黃豆最主要是炸油所以它有市場區隔那小麥的部分因為美國的小麥它的筋性是比較符合我們的一些飲用品質那台灣的麵粉小麥的筋性是比較適合做餅乾之類的或其他麵條之類的所以它也有市場區隔那同樣玉米也是一樣所以我們會"},{"start":6328.76,"end":6356.722,"text":"用大量進口用大宗採購的方式是希望降低成本因為飼料是我們的畜牧產業很重要的成本之一所以我們透過大量的進口以後去降低成本能夠讓我們的畜產業的飼料所以部長你要提醒你的就是你要記得自給率的問題你不能完全靠進口我們剛剛提到說不管是環境或者是整個持空背景萬一進不來的時候"},{"start":6357.503,"end":6380.657,"text":"我們可以有個自己的自給力才能夠保障那現在你要農民轉做這個雜糧的話你要什麼誘因去保障它就是價格上的能夠保障收購讓他們才種得下去才能夠賣得出去這是最重要的部分嘛所以在這部分的話我希望你能夠做調整你們的政策你們的計畫都做出來了一轉二做三加三的話"},{"start":6381.297,"end":6399.797,"text":"你都已經提出來了但是你現在又提個要擴大對美國的採購對農民他們會擔心我種下去到時候價格又降下來我賣不出去怎麼辦所以請你們要嚴格審查而且要保障農民他的權益有保障收購的制度好不好"},{"start":6400.097,"end":6420.312,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提醒我們針對我們現在推動的一級二轉參加餐本身對於飼料對於玉米的部分種植的部分我們在續產會那邊有一個收購的機制在那邊我們也絕對不會因為進口量變多而影響到農民的權益這個絕對不會發生的我們一定會確保農民的生意"},{"start":6420.472,"end":6436.641,"text":"不要一直都靠進口了 自給率要來提高提高這自給率好不好那你那個10成整個你的40%的這個自給率的部分那糧食的自給率部分你要把這個10成跟整個規劃出來好不好我們努力會來朝這個方向來做2030年可以嗎你現在訂2020年嘛現在給你10年時間達不到40%嗎我講坦白話可能2030年也達不到40%"},{"start":6447.746,"end":6469.943,"text":"至少要提高我們會提高我們會朝這個目標所以我剛才說我會從品項來看有些品項是跟量產業有關的我們會盡量拉高把整個時程跟目標產項都把它定出來把這表格送給美食我們會 好好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝我們先做一下宣告在楊瓊英委員結束後休息五分鐘現在請鄭正前委員做詢答"},{"start":6480.594,"end":6503.984,"text":"謝謝主席我想請問農業部陳部長陳部長部長好非常感謝主席今天特別安排動保法的一個法案修法的審查那我想說先請教一下部長你知道全球第一個動物餐廳寵物餐廳在什麼地方嗎"},{"start":6505.598,"end":6527.098,"text":"全球我不是很清楚沒關係因為這問題很小可是因為全球第一個寵物餐廳其實在台灣在台北士林它充分反映了台灣人就是很有愛心然後也很有創意的一個狀態那在寵物餐廳的時候其實就讓很多動物它可以陪伴人一起在"},{"start":6527.738,"end":6556.309,"text":"吃飯喝茶享受這個部分所以這個部分我覺得某個部分也是台灣很有創意的一個表現那事實上現在其實有很多寵物餐廳不只是貓狗部分還包括有兔子、貓頭鷹、山羊等等很多種不同的寵物餐廳不過因為從那個2019年COVID-19開始的時候那國際上對於這樣的一個所謂的動物餐廳其實也開始有一些的一個反省跟調整像韓國他們在2023年就直接"},{"start":6557.089,"end":6583.027,"text":"就是開始禁止這樣的一個動物餐廳那他們考量點是因為人畜共通傳染病的問題那英國他們對於所謂的一個貓咪餐廳他們也在重新再做一個檢討那我想說請教一下部長在這個部分就是說我們目前台灣的這個所謂的動物餐廳這些動物餐廳他們需不需要去申請動物展演場所"},{"start":6584.305,"end":6609.364,"text":"我跟委員報告這要分不同的情況那基本上如果在餐廳有展演的行為的話那是一定要的那有一些特定的你如果在餐廳裡面特定的時間特定的時段然後讓寵物在那邊做一些活動那這個就需要做登記但是有一些家裡有養貓或養狗他可能就放在那邊那那個東西就不需要申請"},{"start":6611.105,"end":6625.772,"text":"所以說你在這個報告當中你有特別提到說目前台灣有95家的一個那個動物展演場所裡面有所謂的寵物餐廳或動物餐廳在裡面嗎有在裡面裡面有部分的動物餐廳是在裡面的"},{"start":6626.972,"end":6643.878,"text":"是在裡面的OK那我想說要特別提到這狀態就是說因為針對整個龍出宮傳染病這樣子的一個問題當中的時候我想我們也希望針對這樣子的一個寵物餐廳因為確實就像那個部長剛剛提到的因為有很多"},{"start":6646.319,"end":6674.938,"text":"熱愛寵物的店主他們很多時候就把家裡的寵物帶到工作場合去那可能不一定是我們所謂的一個展演的場所可是我們希望這部分能夠加以去規範因為這不只是對於整個動物的福利來說對於我們的一個公衛的問題也是一個很重要的部分所以我們希望說整個農業部可以針對這部分的時候去進行進一步的一個去管理這部分有沒有問題"},{"start":6675.578,"end":6698.292,"text":"我想謝謝委員的一個關心也提醒那我想後續就算他不需要許可的時候那我們也會去宣導去落實他的寵物的登記第一個登記 登記以後他後面的這些疫苗的注射有沒有也會接到我們的後面的管理的系統裡面去所以這個部分我們會去更關心這些人序共通的這些傳染病"},{"start":6698.612,"end":6720.381,"text":"OK那我想說這是一個很好的狀態不過你剛剛特別提到說寵物可能針對貓狗的部分只是現在動物餐廳其實它很多元所以我接下來我想請教一下就是說部長就是說我們現在對於網路上面在販售活體寵物這個部分的時候有沒有特別的一個規範"},{"start":6721.474,"end":6741.273,"text":"如果你在網路販售寵物的時候你必須要有特種登記證要在你的網路的廣告欄裡面要有登記證的字號那因為所有的特種的寵物做寵物營業就要有申請那申請水果就有登記證你一定要有那個登記證你如果沒有那個登記證你就是違法"},{"start":6741.824,"end":6765.926,"text":"部長沒有問題 因為你特別提到特種寵物我們對於特寵的部分其實是有專法在管理的那對於異寵的部分 請問目前有沒有這樣的一個管理的準備很抱歉的 目前沒有 雖然目前沒有那你知道是不是現在我們在異寵的部分你知道在網路上面販售的種類有多少樣你知道嗎 多少物種你知道"},{"start":6766.874,"end":6790.27,"text":"一定很難 這具體數字大概都很少可是跟部長特別報告有一兩千種的一個異蟲的狀態在網路上面販售這是媒體這邊報導出來的一個狀態所以表示說我們特蟲其實有專法可是對異蟲的部分其實完全沒有一個法可以去管的時候所以我這邊因為今天是我們動保法的一個聲明我想針對這個部分我們農業部這邊會不會針對異蟲的部分也會有準備要加以去規範去管理"},{"start":6797.494,"end":6817.563,"text":"我跟委員報告我們要處理異寵的這些管理的時候登記的時候第一個我們就會要進行寵物的分級分類的管理那分級分類有些是禁止的有一些在特定情況是許可的有些是一般性的那一般性的就可以回到特寵這邊來管理然後對於禁止的部分我們就不會讓他去做飼養"},{"start":6818.183,"end":6844.829,"text":"你說一般性的會回到特寵這邊來管理對 就是當你可以飼養的時候我們就會逐漸滾動到我們的特種這個業者裡面去管理針對這個部分部長因為針對這個部分可不可以有更具體的一個內容因為坦白說我最近碰到了很多的一個動保團體包括說他們防止虐待的一個動物團體這樣的協會那也碰到了很多異寵相關的業者"},{"start":6848.23,"end":6871.078,"text":"他們很多的一個協會一起來澄清這件事情他們有幾個訴求第一個希望說我們對於整個異寵的部分也能夠有更具體的一個法規的一個管理讓他們自己有一個很具體的一個遵循的一個方向那麼對於整個網路上面的一個異寵的一個販售的時候我們希望"},{"start":6871.798,"end":6890.256,"text":"能夠嚴加禁止因為現在很多異寵在網路上販售打廣告因為特寵可以那異寵在他們打廣告之後的時候呢很多的一個運輸的狀態很多的小動物都死在這運輸當中的過程因為語法沒有管"},{"start":6890.876,"end":6914.384,"text":"所以大家就隨便做都產生很多的一個亂象出來所以針對這個異蟲的部分的時候是不是可以請部長針對因為我知道異蟲的種類太多了像你剛剛也講到了一個有很多異蟲的狀態也分很多種可是我在想說我們還是必須要給他們有一個比較好的規範讓他們能夠有一個遵循的方向"},{"start":6914.924,"end":6922.173,"text":"那針對這部分的時候可不可以請農業部這邊加加油那針對異蟲的部分我們有更好的一個管制的一個規範出來"},{"start":6923.68,"end":6949.08,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒那您剛才講的就是說你如果有即時的合法登記證在網路購買那我們會有規範跟指引去要求它的運輸的條件我覺得這個蠻重要的那第二個部分針對異蟲的部分那我們現在持續在做溝通你也知道在異蟲裡面禁止飼養的部分前一陣子到的非常多的一些不同的聲音那我們持續在做溝通我想沒有"},{"start":6950.601,"end":6978.949,"text":"不能溝通的啦所以我想在這個部分如果沒有達到共識之前我們不會貿然的去做這個分級跟分類一定要有共識的情況那我在想說因為針對這部分我們今天聊到這部分的時候就是針對整個網路的平台業者這個部分的時候我們也希望能夠強加管理跟要求如果在網路上面有一些不當的內容的時候我們希望政府有權利然後能夠要求這些平台業者下架"},{"start":6979.609,"end":6999.774,"text":"這個部分可不可以要求我們在這次修法就有納入了那這樣很好那另外一個部分就針對於比方說台灣人其實很有愛心可是呢也會發生很多虐待動物的一個行為發生所以針對這部分我們也希望能夠加強加重罰則所以這部分我們也都在做有在修法裡面"},{"start":7000.834,"end":7028.696,"text":"那最後一個部分我想針對有關於遊蕩犬的一個部分因為那個我看到就是部長你報告當中的時候針對遊蕩犬你也花了很多的一個篇幅那目前的時候因為這個月的時候在新竹南寮地區的時候又發生遊蕩犬傷人的事件那我們農業部對於遊蕩犬傷人的統計有沒有一個全面性的一個去做一個"},{"start":7031.043,"end":7050.048,"text":"統計的一個狀態我想第一個我們能夠掌握現在遊蕩犬的數量比上次統計上次統計是15.9萬現在已經到了11.4萬所以遊蕩犬的數量是在下降但是至於說咬人的部分我們現在我手邊現在目前並沒有這個數據"},{"start":7051.388,"end":7074.403,"text":"OK 部長這就是我要特別講的狀態因為我們每兩年其實政府這邊會針對遊蕩犬的數量去做一個調查每兩年會調查一次那我發現其實教育部跟交通部他們都對於遊蕩犬跟人產生的一些衝突都有一些統計可是我們農業部主管反而沒有那我看你報告這邊有講到說"},{"start":7077.205,"end":7101.287,"text":"經統計媒體的報導的數量是減低的可是因為媒體報導不一定是每個案件都會出來所以我們希望能夠有官方的一個統計針對這部分然後能夠來好好來解決遊蕩犬相關的問題因為我發現你對遊蕩犬這邊你確實有些琢磨那我們也希望就是你這邊有提到說我們下一個階段要再增加就是各地方的一個收容量的問題"},{"start":7102.668,"end":7122.601,"text":"那我們也希望好好的去做那對於林菩薩這邊也能夠真正去落實好不好好謝謝委員提醒我想針對這個遊盪犬攻擊人的事件我想我們會有重新做一個有系統的調查這樣的話才能夠掌握這樣的一個案件跟數據OK好謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝我們現在請陳廷飛委員做詢問"},{"start":7134.645,"end":7157.84,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請陳部長今天我的議題比較多 那你就簡單回答我想今天我們在談這個動保法 我們已經等很久了終於我們也看到我們的一個修正公告的一個狀況"},{"start":7159.801,"end":7183.067,"text":"我要必須請教的是現在兩個非常重要的議題這個在我的修法版本裡面都有就是說我們怎麼去更詳盡規範我們對寵物的飼主管理的責任更能夠加重在於如果飼主虐待或是故意傷害宰殺動物的行者這個部分我們怎麼做"},{"start":7184.4,"end":7214.013,"text":"我想針對這個虐待跟宰殺的部分我們會再加重刑罰加重刑責的部分這個刑責的部分我們在這次修法都有就有放進去都有放進去所以這個部分是我們從過去到現在我們愛動物的人士其實一直看待看到心裡都很痛的部分所以這個部分我們在這次動保法裡面有嚴格再去加強做一個修正"},{"start":7214.634,"end":7229.028,"text":"還有一個我跟委員補充就是委員非常關心的就是另外一個方式就是棄養那過去棄養的時候沒有很明確的界定什麼叫棄養所以這次的修法裡面也納入了比較明確的棄養就是說"},{"start":7230.249,"end":7248.972,"text":"當你不要養的時候你一定要經過收容的這個程序你才能夠所以有一個SOP啦就是說你如果說你要棄養你不能隨便丟你要經過整個收容的整個過程有一個SOP不是說不行就是說你如果"},{"start":7250.073,"end":7264.705,"text":"養寵物養到你自己覺得你的經濟能力有問題了你想把它能夠找一個比較好安置的地方可以透過收容不要棄養對 這個也是委員之前關心的對 我們一直在強調的那第二個部分就是說"},{"start":7265.606,"end":7284.1,"text":"在我們現在看到很多寵物出入公共場所那因為沒有做好很好的防護措施而造成別人一般民眾或是動物的傷害那這個部分呢現在這幾天這一段時間最多的就是比特犬那這個部分我們怎麼做"},{"start":7285.117,"end":7300.479,"text":"在比特犬的部分雖然說我們已經列入了相關的這些禁止飼養而有強制登記但是相對的這些登記有一些黑數的部分我們會盡量再把這個黑數找出來那更重要一點就是以比特犬跳窗這個案件來講"},{"start":7301.36,"end":7317.372,"text":"他之前已經傷害過一次了可是我們現在開始在做規劃就是說當這個具有攻擊性的犬隻你如果施主沒有盡到責任咬到人的時候我就會沒路一次就沒路而不是讓他用裁發的方式去處理"},{"start":7318.012,"end":7345.007,"text":"除了没入之后呢在我们相对的对于一般民众跟动物的保护该怎么办就是说他今天如果因为这个宠物出入公共场所然后没有做好一个适当的防护措施造成人或动物的伤害这个部分除了没入这个犬吃这个没有问题可是下一步其他的呢"},{"start":7345.649,"end":7361.131,"text":"我想我們基本上像這些比較具攻擊性的我們出門一定有一定的規範包括事主的責任就是你的鏈條的長度你的戴口罩然後你一定要成年人才能夠戴出去這些規範都有你如果沒有"},{"start":7361.852,"end":7382.609,"text":"有這個規範然後造成了傷害的時候你那個行者是會被加重的所以就會有行者加重的問題所以我們這一次有把它很清楚的訂了SOP就是說你今天把我們的寵物帶出去如果是一個比較有攻擊性的一些犬隻可能我們要做到什麼樣的防護"},{"start":7383.57,"end":7402.358,"text":"SOP都有了那如果沒有造成傷害那麼就會有加重刑責的部分說真的我們希望進到更多的呼籲跟宣導我說真的這是最後這個刑責都是最後那我們前面宣導很重要"},{"start":7403.018,"end":7424.184,"text":"這也拜託我們的農業部就是說我們訂了這些SOP我剛剛所講的就是市主的管養責任還有我們市主帶出去應該有的一些防護措施這些都已經有SOP了在這一次的動保法裡面我們要去宣傳要讓大家更知道了解而不修完之後"},{"start":7424.804,"end":7449.151,"text":"就不見了大家不知道應該更清楚讓大家知道你該怎麼做然後如果沒有怎麼做你就會有怎麼樣的一個刑責跟處罰所以包括棄養的部分現在也有一定的程序所以我覺得這個都要把它做很清楚的一些公佈跟宣導這個再拜託我們的部長謝謝委員的提醒我們會加強來做然後呢"},{"start":7449.691,"end":7450.492,"text":"現在台南的土地很多"},{"start":7467.418,"end":7491.327,"text":"只能清飯去啊 要洗啊 啊這五百萬清菜基本上都馬上就達到這個標準其實一個很小的地喔所以他們說這個部分該怎麼辦難道都沒有檢討的機制嗎我跟委員報告齁其實這個部分其實以農業部來講我們內部就有一些檢討而且行政院也有做一些溝通那現在就是說"},{"start":7492.769,"end":7509.663,"text":"農業部的老農津貼牌部的條款我們有一些設計但是整個是要跟其他的八大社福的津貼要一致性那現在正在做溝通因為當時候我們在處理這一塊我們有討論過希望說是不是可以照著什麼樣的一個指數調整可是"},{"start":7511.424,"end":7533.743,"text":"當時候有很多就像你講的要搭八大社福津貼下去做調整所以我覺得這個部分因為牽扯的就是我們的市值的問題現在整個市值物價都往上提升所以包括我們八大社福津貼都應該一致性的調整"},{"start":7534.343,"end":7563.163,"text":"我覺得應該是這個樣子 因為已經沒有辦法跟著上整個世代潮流的一個轉變了所以大家都站在這裡恐怖結果我們的社福今天還在一個最基本數所以這個是不對的所以我拜託部長這個部分是我們這段時間在走訪基層的時候所有農民每一個人大概都提出這樣的意見他說沒辦法我們農民都被排掉了是"},{"start":7564.023,"end":7585.168,"text":"馬上就被排掉了而且那是很小喔很小的一塊地喔那我們也感同身受因為我們希望是地方的發展台南的發展發展之後得給的撲阿這是相對的嘛所以我覺得這個部分拜託我們的部長多久你可以有一個方向跟我們的相關單位去討論"},{"start":7586.688,"end":7604.757,"text":"我想我們農業部在內部的評估其實我們已經有完整的評估但是我們也提到了行政院去做討論所以我會把我們這段時間不只您還有很多地方的聲音都有這個議題我會再跟行政院反映看看可不可以在中間啟動"},{"start":7608.519,"end":7629.986,"text":"一定要重新啟動我個人是覺得說是應該要調整啦所以我會再跟行政院來反映再拜託啦我覺得我們也會跟院長去報告這件事情那另外就是說部長在這一次我們的特別條例特別預算裡面我們農業在這一次關稅的衝擊所編列的預算太少了吧"},{"start":7630.982,"end":7644.128,"text":"我跟委員報告我們編列現在目前編列是181億但是有一個現在比較困擾的地方就是現在的關稅32%是暫緩實施90天是以10%的基準關稅為主所以它的關稅還沒確定之下以現在10%我們覺得現在這10%裡面181億是可以去支持的"},{"start":7653.692,"end":7682.791,"text":"但是未來如果有調整的時候請問這個彈性是誰在定你現在送出來就180億啊而且部長我再跟你強調一點你還記得在第一時間發生的時候就在這個質詢台當中我就跟您就教蝴蝶蘭的問題也請你一個月要提出我們在蝴蝶蘭轉移陣地轉移基地到美國台堂基地去做這樣的一個聯盟機制"},{"start":7683.772,"end":7690.419,"text":"打一個台灣隊打一個國家隊這個很重要但是這個部分你預算好像沒看到"},{"start":7692.541,"end":7719.352,"text":"這個部分是在增加對外投資的部分對外投資啊可是也在農業部的部分相對的我們有把這個議題列入就是說當他到美國去的時候他的一些融資有沒有他的一些融資的減免的部分利息減免你只有融資減免你知道他如果一個產業要去到美國台糖基地就只有融資嗎"},{"start":7721.133,"end":7729.633,"text":"救救融資嗎 你有沒有看到我們經濟部我們經濟部在企業的一個協助當中跟我們農業差太多了吧"},{"start":7731.448,"end":7759.025,"text":"部長猜太多了吧所以在這個國際競爭力當中胡鐵人剛好是一個很重要的標的剛好有台塘基地如果你沒有這個台塘基地他也沒有辦法剛好有這個台塘基地他可以依照台塘基地讓我們的產業進駐然後協助產業去做一個聯盟打一個國家隊這個部分你們要列入優先啊"},{"start":7760.146,"end":7778.514,"text":"跟我們報告 福田產業我也親自跟業者座談了然後針對台糖的基地我們現在也在跟台糖那邊去協調我知道你們有在談我的意思是說你沒有協助經費的到位轉型我告訴你這些廠商要怎麼有信心呢這是第一點 所以我拜託"},{"start":7779.614,"end":7799.822,"text":"你這個部分你一定要增加進去第二個就是我們的台灣雕其實在台灣雕 台南端兩項最重要而且所有節目比例最關鍵的一個就是蝴蝶蘭 一個就是台灣雕所以台灣雕你知道嗎我們現在不能只有把眼睛放在我們的美國"},{"start":7800.962,"end":7820.283,"text":"也就是把雞蛋放在美國的這個籃子裡我們勢必是要把所有世界各國的通路都找進來所以台灣雕什麼很重要整個的加工製造很重要對不對我們現在台灣雕說真的它是可以做成"},{"start":7821.224,"end":7843.113,"text":"真空然後完全食材都在裡面他只要加熱這符合外國他實用的一個習慣放下去加熱之後就可以用了所以我們要怎麼把這個加工增加加強跟我們的產業給他們更有信心這個也是我們這一波一定要加強這個已經放進去包括"},{"start":7843.893,"end":7851.319,"text":"那個台灣雕的魚片魚凍條跟整個生鮮生鮮的部分生鮮的部分我是說加工加工真空加工等等你的預算是納入預算不夠啊部長"},{"start":7859.465,"end":7884.298,"text":"現在我們就要利用這一波給予更多的支持我是可以提醒了因為我在台南我很清楚蝴蝶蘭跟台灣貂是我們兩個很重要的指標在這一波關稅的影響而且它佔的比例是全國最高所以這個部分麻煩一下我們需要的這些是協助經費的協助讓我們有感謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":7890.091,"end":7901.99,"text":"謝謝 接下來我們請謝玉鳳召委請做巡檔謝謝主席 我想要請陳部長我們請部長"},{"start":7909.895,"end":7921.487,"text":"委員好部長好其實動保法我看到今天所有委員都非常關注行政院的版本我想要請教一下行政院的版本什麼時候會送進來"},{"start":7923.905,"end":7942.707,"text":"我跟委員報告行政院我們去年8月送到行政院行政院的內部的法規會審議已經完成了那就剩最後一個階段就是要通過行政院院會就可以送立法院我想我會盡快的跟行政院聯絡盡快的排到院會裡面去做報告以後"},{"start":7942.927,"end":7959.978,"text":"你有沒有信心啊你有沒有信心真的下一次院會就可以送出來啊是不是大家都在關心嘛這個沒有什麼爭議的有非常多的條文都沒有爭議我想我會進行溝通在下個禮拜的院會看可不可以排進去排進去完了以後就可以送送出來了你有沒有去溝通啊"},{"start":7962.028,"end":7986.051,"text":"因為院會裡面排的一些案子我們還是有跟有優先次序嘛我們還是有我知道我知道可是這個東西沒有沒有爭議的是不是能夠緊迫的送進來我希望朝向下個下個禮拜看會排進院會然後排進院會以後我們在5月的上旬所以你也沒有信心你沒有信心下次有有好謝謝希望你要有信心我們下次排進去"},{"start":7986.972,"end":8013.284,"text":"還有我去年去到日本的時候因為疫情結束了現在觀光客都進到日本去造成日本的米荒以及日本的米價格都上漲了你認為這是一個很好的機會讓我們台灣的稻米可以出口到日本畢竟我們台灣的稻米跟日本的稻米是非常相像的就是"},{"start":8014.405,"end":8025.185,"text":"大家食用的習慣以及米的品種都非常的相似在這樣的情況下有沒有辦法促成台灣米進口到日本"},{"start":8026.188,"end":8047.43,"text":"謝謝委員的關心那的確這一年多來日本的稻米它的量不夠的時候那我們預估往年我們每一年外銷的量大概是三千多噸今年我們預估可以到一萬兩千到一萬三千噸可以足足增加一萬噸那現在我們跟日本在談的其實日本的"},{"start":8049.911,"end":8072.337,"text":"1萬噸喔 以前只有3000多噸而已所以我想我們會努力像委員一直關心這個U值米的外銷那我們也朝這個方向來努力啦那特別是一些極端產區這次的極端產區有很多業者都跟日本有一些合約的訂購所以我們預估這個米在今年度會有比較多的外銷成長"},{"start":8073.206,"end":8087.933,"text":"因為我看到了4月25日的時候你們的胡刺有到日本去嗎還有跟一些團扇跟一些當地的米的進口的業者有進行座談嗎那我不曉得說這樣子的一個進展"},{"start":8088.393,"end":8116.769,"text":"未來會不會加速以及過去以來就是說根據WTO的規範只有開放10萬公噸的稻米想關稅的優惠那但是這個10萬公噸有沒有是各國分配不是全部都給台灣嗎那台灣只有分配到1萬公噸那這個部分有沒有辦法再增加呢我想對日本的部分一部分是"},{"start":8118.571,"end":8144.532,"text":"關稅配額內的關稅 配額內的部分那其實配額外的關稅如果能夠適度的調降的話對台灣也是有機會的配額內 你所謂的配額內沒有 有配額嘛配額內配額內的部分它現在的總量是有管制的但是配額外它的關稅用該高關稅的方式去處理那我們希望說能夠在配額外的關稅能夠做適度的調整"},{"start":8145.192,"end":8164.677,"text":"那這樣的話我們的米的競爭力就會夠那第二個部分就算他現在關稅不調降的情況之下其實我們還有很多台灣的有機米跟U子米還是外銷到日本表示說我們加上關稅的一個價格在他的高端市場還是有潛力的"},{"start":8165.157,"end":8179.387,"text":"因為其實不只在高端市場在平價市場你看日本的米的價格5公斤是4,026日元等同大概915元左右的台幣"},{"start":8183.55,"end":8202.436,"text":"那我们目前以台湾的就是说彰化县的米价来讲平均的零售价格也在5公斤在225元左右所以日本的零售米价超市的零售米价是我们的4到5倍"},{"start":8204.176,"end":8225.064,"text":"所以如果我們的稻米能夠輸到日本去即便有少許的關稅對於我們還是很大的利基啊是不是是我剛才說的就是說就像配合的關稅高以現在的價差來講還是有它的一個利基所以我們現在更積極的跟國外日本的通路商在做連結"},{"start":8226.264,"end":8250.817,"text":"那這樣子連結到了以後像我們跟西武的那個西鐵的那個鐵道公司還有很多大的通路公司在合作那後續就會幫我們的像包括彰化有很多極端產區的部分我們就會將這些優質米能夠透過這個渠道進到日本市場對因為過去像這個一萬公噸的這個配額有時候是掌握在少數的日本商社手上對不對"},{"start":8251.938,"end":8267.719,"text":"那一般的業者沒有辦法找到這些入口的就是要出口的這樣子的一個管道那我們要怎麼樣協助其實我們也在做就是就像您說的配額內的有一些掌握特定的商社"},{"start":8268.32,"end":8282.285,"text":"那這些特定的商社他也有一些特定的廠商那我們也在跟他談是不是有一些是可以我們推薦一些比較優質的這些米讓他來選擇這樣的話也是另外一個機會能夠讓我們的稻米能夠外交到日本"},{"start":8283.585,"end":8308.962,"text":"還有就是過去我們台灣米進口到日本的市場我們主要都是業務用米或者是到監獄這樣子其實對於米價是沒有幫助的那未來如果我們要進口到日本的市場那我們一定要走零售的嗎一定要走高單價的通路嗎那這個部分怎麼樣子去做呢"},{"start":8309.582,"end":8325.737,"text":"不過我想這個牽涉到跟日本的通路的合作那以我們最近在談的這些稻米的部分就是因為像我們的有機就可以走高單價的那我們的U子米像我們的一級的U子米的部分那其實可以進到它的賣場"},{"start":8326.758,"end":8345.564,"text":"那這些賣場過往在我們在行銷我們的鳳梨的時候這些通路都已經在了所以我們現在更積極的跟現在的通路通路能夠加上一項農產品去行銷是比較快的啦所以這個部分包括鳳梨包括米的部分我想我們會積極的進到不同的通路系統去"},{"start":8346.044,"end":8363.221,"text":"但是我們還是要重塑我們自己台灣米的品牌啊是不是你要進到這種零售市場要進到這種高單價市場對於台灣米的品牌你一定要重塑不能夠讓日本的"},{"start":8363.761,"end":8385.311,"text":"這些通路認為我們就是過去的業務米啊過去的要販售給監獄的用米啊你如果沒有改變這個形象的時候我們就沒有辦法進到日本的零售市場委員非常了解就是說有一些過往銷到日本他是用類似公糧的配米出去的"},{"start":8385.951,"end":8399.603,"text":"那現在我們會重新去塑造台灣米的品質就像我們用台灣鳳梨一樣去做市場的區隔啦那這樣的話我相信後續我們的台灣米的品牌能夠在日本市場就建立這個我想我們會繼續來努力好 謝謝喔 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":8417.428,"end":8428.957,"text":"現在請楊瓊英委員做詢答謝主席 楊瓊發言 邀請部長陳部長"},{"start":8437.966,"end":8460.064,"text":"今天張偉排了這個議程不管是藍綠白的委員大家都非常的關心而且都提案方向大家的凝聚力共同點也都是朝大概這個方向所以本期要請教那麼我們院版什麼時候會送到立法院來"},{"start":8460.945,"end":8484.537,"text":"因為你們從去年八月份的時候本席也在經濟委員會 一再跟你討論這個議題所以我們也希望在草野都能夠去惠及真正對社會有幫助而且保護我們這些的動物所以在這種情況之下請教從去年八月你們到底什麼社會送來"},{"start":8485.566,"end":8512.22,"text":"我剛才特別提到就是我們現在只差院會通過以後就可以送立法院那我回去我可以跟行政院做溝通明天是禮拜四啊 院會啊明天是不會有啦 不會有喔下禮拜四 我說下禮拜四進到院會院會完以後就可以送到立法院來所以我希望說在5月的上旬下個禮拜四可以送進去院會這個可以 我想跟行政院那邊溝通一下"},{"start":8513.2,"end":8535.742,"text":"排進去到下個禮拜的院會裡頭有這個信心下個禮拜是送到有齁你這個有一個微笑喔所以我們本期要請教那大家既然共識點都很雷同喔那請問從去年八月到現在你們終於說下個禮拜是要送到院會裡頭充分的溝通你改變了哪些"},{"start":8536.883,"end":8564.559,"text":"來 請做說明特別剛才跟委員講就是在111年上次修正是110年那110年修正完以後我們發現幾個很重要的事情事主的責任還有虐殺動物有沒有還有就是虐待動物的部分那個事件層出不窮但是我們的法本身並沒有很明確的管理還有一些棄養的動作棄養的那個事件的定義也不明確所以我們這一次經過了"},{"start":8565.76,"end":8581.045,"text":"一些溝通以外針對事主的責任經過動物保護強化的部分還有寵物的一些管理的部分另外就是動保檢查人員也要有一些執法的權利所以針對這幾項我們去做一些修法的一些安排"},{"start":8581.325,"end":8606.822,"text":"那這個你們主要的這四大方向呢跟我們藍綠白的委員提案大家都有一致的這個方向那所以本席繼續來跟你討論也就是說惡意傷害動物自死自傷的事件陳榮銘剛才說的是屢屢發生那引發社會高度的一個公憤但是我們現在動保法的規定裡頭對於虐待動物的認定標準過於嚴苛"},{"start":8609.944,"end":8634.274,"text":"常常出現了很明顯的虐待但是沒有辦法去定罪的這個情況它不但打擊了你們執法單位的士氣而且也嚴重的損害了動物保護的這個精神所以本席要請教部長本席所提出的動保法第25條及25條之一的修法方向那您是否支持 請說明"},{"start":8635.59,"end":8658.092,"text":"我們絕對支持非常感謝你的絕對支持那麼我們就繼續討論原本必須要複數動物死亡才能夠處罰的這個限制將這個複數必須要刪除因為本席在提案說明的時候也特別說傷害就是傷害 凌虐就是凌虐怎麼還要到複數以上呢請做說明"},{"start":8659.893,"end":8679.592,"text":"我委員報告喔 你不是這邊說而已 你這邊上面就說了對 本席非常重視所以我們這次就把那個複數把它槓掉了同意槓掉 好 我們有一個共識接下來本席要講將暴力或者是私有其他凌虐方式致動物死亡的這個行為明確納入重法的規範 您的看法"},{"start":8682.517,"end":8685.758,"text":"好 這一個同意 接下來我要再請教對於傷害至器官損傷或者是死亡情節重大的案件 罰則也要加重因為你原先是要將動物的器官要喪屍耶這個太嚴苛了 他已經損傷了"},{"start":8705.939,"end":8718.869,"text":"本來就應當要罰 贊成嗎 將喪屍改為損傷我們現在已經加重刑罰了對 一定要加重刑罰你也同意修正這樣子的一個條文好 這個非常的感謝終於聽到這個行政部門對本席的提案部長你這邊全力的來支持所以我們希望這個罰則加重了就是"},{"start":8732.745,"end":8757.454,"text":"整個社會的一個期待那真正的也要發揮一個嚇阻的這個功效本身認為作為文明的社會他不應當讓虐待動物者輕易脫罪應該要比照美國跟日本這些國家來提高虐待動物的刑責以及這個罰金才是真正的能夠遏阻這些的惡行"},{"start":8759.315,"end":8778.229,"text":"也能夠保障我們整個保護動物的這個精神讓這個飼主以及動物應有的權益都能夠受到保障那我們就期待我們希望盡速的在你下個禮拜四送進院會的行政院板趕快送到立法院我們完成的這個法案這個"},{"start":8779.87,"end":8783.772,"text":"接下來本席要跟你討論的我們犬貓的登記到目前為止是有222萬隻其中犬的部分是140萬隻貓的部分是82萬隻但是我們看到寵物相關的產業"},{"start":8796.457,"end":8804.083,"text":"它的銷售額它已經達到387.3億那可以顯示出我們的寵物市場的規模是龐大而且日日在增加隨著市場的發展那市主對於寵物食品的品質與安全的要求越來越嚴格本席也數次跟您討論過這個議題我們要吃的健康我們的寵物更應該它的食品的來源更應該要讓它健康那本席也看到"},{"start":8825.299,"end":8842.786,"text":"你們在4月24號針對於寵物食品中的重金屬 拱跟黴菌的毒素的容許標準做了調整來確保整個產品的安全性所以因此本席要來跟你討論的也就是說"},{"start":8844.502,"end":8872.128,"text":"你們在這樣的一個情況之下呢本項請教4月22號的公佈這是非常好的一個起點但是你們要怎麼樣去確保這些新標準在市場上有效的來落實而且他是必須要有一個有效的監管跟查核機制才能夠讓這些製造商呢他能夠有所遵循請教"},{"start":8874.212,"end":8892.552,"text":"跟委員報告您這邊所提到的那個犬隻的隻數貓特別快這是在去年年底的現在兩個加起來已經是251萬隻了很好而且會陸續增加會增加那第二個部分就是我們針對我們提出來的這些那個寵物食品的那個對"},{"start":8893.453,"end":8911.575,"text":"那個有害物質跟我們會加強抽測過去我們大概是四五百件我們會再加強這個抽測的比例然後同時每一次的抽測完了以後我們就會公佈我們用公佈的方式讓廠商有警惕啦"},{"start":8912.657,"end":8935.198,"text":"所以這個部分我想我們可能會更加強然後針對寵物業者現在寵物業者大概有三千多家的寵物業者寵物食品業者的部分有大概八萬多件的寵物食品我們也會同步的加強這些抽測包括進口的也是一樣加強抽測同時你也要加強宣導讓這個公布呢讓大家都知道我們要一起"},{"start":8935.738,"end":8961.432,"text":"向上 善的循環向上 深厚 加油接下來最後一個議題本集請教我國漁船涉入宰殺保護類動物的國際指控案件層出不窮顯示了現行的監管跟教育以及處罰機制仍舊有很大的缺口所以本集希望要有積極的作為那不然恐怕將使我國在漁業國際間背負了沉重的負面評價那據媒體報導"},{"start":8964.033,"end":8988.211,"text":"有船主在6月2024年的6月駕駛了這個漁船作業期間那指示的外籍漁工呢在西北太平洋非法捕捉並宰殺我國列為二級保育類的海豚將以血肉吸引殺魚哇 這個嚴重的違反到我們的野保法不僅破壞了我們的海洋生態更重創我國國際的一個形態所以本期要請教"},{"start":8992.674,"end":9016.997,"text":"像這樣的事件我們政府怎麼樣的作為怎麼樣讓我們在國際間不會有這些惡性的一個負評我第一個問題報告像這個遠洋漁業的部分一定要透過國際的合作那以今天這個案例是加拿大跟我們合作的加拿大本身的巡航的那個飛機有拍攝到儀式的所以第一時間通知我們以後"},{"start":9017.597,"end":9044.863,"text":"等這漁船進港的時候我們馬上做漁獲的清查調查跟檢查才順利的把這些可能疑似這些有這種宰殺野生動物的這些這些犯罪的事實跟證據能夠保全起來所以這個部分我想後續他已經違反了相關的IUU的部分那現在目前特別是IUU是全世界一直在認真對待的事情那我們台灣有所謂的那個"},{"start":9046.004,"end":9060.859,"text":"國際人權的一個相關的條例漁業人權的法案我們會持續的去加強還有包括相關的監管在各地的港口我們也會有監管員會上船去做查核這個部分我想我們會努力來做部長當然這個"},{"start":9064.402,"end":9082.92,"text":"國際國家通知我們當然我們配合IU也非常的重視我們要的是說我們要再怎麼樣在國際的這個富品不能再有所以因此我們也不能只坐著人家通知我們而我們必須要好好的從觀念教育讓我們的"},{"start":9083.801,"end":9104.634,"text":"漁船知道大家一起來維護國家的一個顏面這才是重點你要多多的從教育從觀念然後去加強這樣子才能夠這個進動一起來才能夠不會再有這樣子的一個負評好謝謝委員的提醒去研議方案好嗎謝謝好謝謝我們現在請張錫凱委員做詢答"},{"start":9115.27,"end":9115.75,"text":"好來請保證慢慢喝"},{"start":9147.269,"end":9173.02,"text":"我們現在繼續跟同基層同聲明的農民討論三天我今天要跟你討論的是漁電共生的大漏洞我在三個地方問你這個漁電共生的事情漁電共生這段時間出了很多問題包括下面被埋的那個什麼爐渣啦廢土啦然後慢慢要去做一些改善可是我發現更多的陳情有一個大的問題就是那個覆蓋力的問題"},{"start":9174.437,"end":9188.045,"text":"我三位都有問你嘛,你做了這個回答嘛,你看一下那個字幕,你說漁電共生的基本上光電的覆蓋率是40%嘛,然後包括漁種你都有講嘛,我現在很明確的,這個40%應該是漁溫的40%對不對?它是設施容許裡面土地的40%"},{"start":9197.12,"end":9220.477,"text":"這個容許他申請容許面積的這個分母到底是餘溫的40還是這個所有土地的40不是他土地他容許是針對土地面積他這塊土地面積的容許那那塊土地面積他可能只有一小部分做餘溫喔那不一定所以我們的容許是用土地的面積的40%現在通通的問題就是很多地方餘溫上面蓋了滿滿的這個光電板嘛"},{"start":9226.081,"end":9253.663,"text":"對不對啊現在就是現在市民說這樣魚子吃不完嘛對不對那你3月26號你給我的答詢是來來保證來來來你看你二十八個月你的答詢是這樣子你說要有陽光照射嘛對不對是所以你說有40%的覆蓋那你60%可以陽光可以進來嘛對不對是可是現在問題出在什麼地方現在全國很多地方出現了一個很大的問題是餘溫百分之百都被蓋滿了"},{"start":9254.912,"end":9263.894,"text":"那就沒有達到你剛講的這個你前面會跟我說的40的40的覆蓋60可以射進來對不對那你如果百分之百把餘溫全部都蓋住了"},{"start":9264.887,"end":9282.885,"text":"哇 那就是零啦 對不對我給你們報告我們的餘電工程有兩類一類是室內養殖型的它的覆蓋率跟我剛才講的40%是戶外的部分所以這兩個是不大一樣的我們先來談戶外我們今天就鎖定戶外戶外就是應該戶外其實剛才你說的就是"},{"start":9286.989,"end":9315.879,"text":"宜溫不是百分之百蓋住嘛對不對至少是百分之四十嘛對不對這樣百分之六十有陽光可以設置的嘛其實你根據的這是有科學根據嘛你根據的就是水勢守的這個2018年的這個漁電共生的模擬試驗嘛對不對所以你是有根據的嘛可是現在問題來了來我給你看這個圖來你看這個來那個你看左邊這就是宜溫啦對不對對不對大到八八八"},{"start":9316.874,"end":9327.738,"text":"這是幾%?這是40%嗎?部長我甚至調那個空照圖給你看右邊這個就是宜溫電瓶全部都是光電板所以跟部長還有你水事所當初做的這個實驗是不一樣的喔對不對?我再給你看下一張這是一個暗場來下一張這個暗場也一樣"},{"start":9345.473,"end":9373.481,"text":"這兩個案場都是在疑問上面蓋了百分之百那這個違反了違反你的理解也違反了水事所當初做的這個結論這個就是我自己的鄉親啊他們一直在陳情啊其實保定你也很盡心盡力啦我聽各位問你的時候有一家不是被球場的異議對不對後來我們去努力讓他可以和解嘛現在在和解中這個就是我剛剛講的其中一個案場"},{"start":9375.828,"end":9396.931,"text":"他被光電裂折就是這樣搞搞到根本就沒辦法沒辦法再種魚電有沒有生出來不曉得可是魚死了嘛魚電共生結果魚還不曉得有沒有這個魚就死掉了這個就是現在鄉村裡面很多地方碰到的這個悲劇好那你有努力了你這個案子有要他們去和解了可是這個問題沒有解開"},{"start":9397.532,"end":9415.98,"text":"不過我想第一個我必須誠實跟委員說明用這樣的圖我沒辦法判斷因為在有一些土地它是地層下陷於不利耕作區它也許也有從事養殖的行為但是那時候的容許跟你地面的或是室內的是不一樣的規範"},{"start":9416.92,"end":9440.31,"text":"那以農業部的立場我們一定是要先確保養殖能夠成功也是事實然後光電才是加值的部分那如果有不法的部分我想都應該去查處啦對柏定我告訴你看的就是左邊這個是實景圖嘛這個是空照圖嘛我進一步再把這個地幕啊調出來給你看來下一張看下一張你看"},{"start":9445.154,"end":9464.662,"text":"這是整個暗場這是台灣第一個漁電共生的第一個模範區示範區也是第一個暗場就有兩個場來陳情碰到一個大的問題右下角這個就是上次我一直問你的你把前面都蓋住了魚都死掉就沒辦法養殖啊所以漁民就抗議啊"},{"start":9466.121,"end":9484.908,"text":"結果開發商供電商怎麼說我就求賞你一億那我們有努力了嘛現在已經和解了可是和解還是在現在進行式喔左上角那個更可憐我現在跟你講左上角你看上面畫的供電板這就百分之百都覆蓋了啦你從地幕我剛剛講空照圖這個從地幕都很清楚左上角發生了什麼事情移民工"},{"start":9487.472,"end":9515.4,"text":"你台元立能國營事業啊你還開口啊我就同意你來做光電啊結果轉了好幾手弄到後來台泥變成台泥台泥光電去了他左上角蓋出什麼也是百分之百結果那個農夫一直抗爭到後來就腦中風了兒子把工作丟下回去照顧爸爸到現在還在抗爭這兩個都是很大悲劇一個被酋長以疫"},{"start":9516.636,"end":9535.855,"text":"一個家裡面生活陷入困頓不只沒辦法繼續在養魚爸爸腦中風現在躺在家裡兒子現在在抗爭喔就來存錢那原因就是初桃我剛剛跟你討論的因為你們在法令的這個解釋上面讓光電業者去餘溫上面蓋了百分之百的"},{"start":9536.82,"end":9554.257,"text":"光電板那這個要不要處理不過我還是跟委員說明您這樣我沒辦法判斷因為光電的覆蓋率會因為你是農變的農地變更是一件事情然後你做室內的或是做戶外的那我在這邊有個數據可以跟委員報告就是我們也要求了"},{"start":9555.477,"end":9577.187,"text":"各縣市有做光電廠去做盤查去做清查有沒有不合法的地方有沒有不養魚的現在已經清查了122場那其中完全合格的大概是將近37場到40場之間所以表示還有很大部分是不符合相關的規範正在改善中所以"},{"start":9578.107,"end":9604.626,"text":"我也必須認同就是說的確有一些不合法的這項的光電板但是我們會要求地方政府去做一個有效的查核甚至於我們也希望說如果他沒有真正從事農業的漁業經營的話他就應該斷電啦就是讓他的電不再輸送啊如果讓他電繼續輸送他不斷的在改善那你就沒完沒了啊就是我想我們農業部的立場是這樣子"},{"start":9605.026,"end":9631.016,"text":"我對你很棒 你也承認說有部分是有問題嘛那你要去把它清查清楚至少這兩個地方要去清查清楚對 這個我想我們後續如果有資訊我們可以了解如果你去看了 確定是老蔣我已經給你很明確了空照圖也給你 地幕圖也給你 實景都給你的好 那你要更明確請最近就趕快去看這兩個地方好不好是那如果是確定你確認是我剛剛講的百分之百上面移運都蓋了這個百分之百的光電板那這個就不行囉"},{"start":9632.276,"end":9642.859,"text":"如果它是地面型的,它絕對不行啊對啦,宿外又是地面型的嘛,就是魚死地面嘛來,再看另外一個,剛才這兩個是假機,這張是台南的,來,看那裡一樣,地面也大跟密密麻麻,全部都是光電板,也是百分之百你是農業專家,你覺得這個光電發電之後,會不會比較容易起火"},{"start":9657.188,"end":9673.538,"text":"這個有餘電共生嗎?還是變生了,餘死掉了?這個你的專業判斷,這要怎樣?這叫餘電共生嗎?我如果全部看這張圖的話,我覺得下面是沒有什麼養啊對啊,它怎麼可以發電?可以通過你們這個許可還繼續再發電?"},{"start":9674.411,"end":9696.132,"text":"不是 我要跟委員報告我們農業部是針對他的經營計畫書裡面我們做容許那後續都是地方政府在處理的那我們當然會有一些指引跟規範去要求所以像類似有這樣的一個案場的時候我們都會要求地方政府要去嚴查啊這個才能夠確保 對這用常識 別說你專業 常識看就知道地面都浮屏啊"},{"start":9701.325,"end":9728.735,"text":"都是浮屏啊這個裡面如果有魚的話 魚就會把那個浮屏吃掉嘛根本密密麻麻都是浮屏 表示你會比較沒魚啊嘛啊第一個這個含氧量一定很高嘛 對不對 是這個根本沒辦法養魚啊 所以它不叫魚電攻生它叫電生的魚死掉了 是不是那這個 好 部長所以我們今天有結論喔我至少講的這個地步我會給你至少這三個地方你要去看過 好不好好 那我做明確的 明確的這個三個具體的要求來 我們看起來應該有共識啦 第一類 來 保定來"},{"start":9729.977,"end":9755.262,"text":"你要明確去界定餘電共生的這個覆蓋率像光電一直跟你講那個40%是全部的土地不是餘溫其實我們今天講的很清楚的餘溫覆蓋不能超過40要有60讓陽光可以射進來要不然餘就死掉了不叫餘電共生覆蓋率以餘溫為依據的話不能夠超過40%要明定下來不是以整體的暗場做計算這跌跌對不對反正這跌跌做得到嗎"},{"start":9756.708,"end":9773.315,"text":"我們本來就這樣規定剛剛講的那個看的那個都是違規嘛不只要去看要去處理然後這個法令一定是要這個規定一定要去確定好第二個你統計一下不只到現場去喔統計一下現在有多少移民本身覆蓋率超過40%的一個月夠不夠"},{"start":9775.697,"end":9803.336,"text":"一個月給委員報告 就是你持續去查嘛 我就那三個地方都給你我先跟委員報告就是我們要做這件事情我們一定發文給地方政府地方政府去查明以後回報那這個部分我們會盡量在一個月能夠給委員一個答覆但是有時候會牽扯到地方政府的查核的時間所以我現在不敢保證說一定一個月他們一定給我因為有時候地方政府不給的時候我們也沒辦法"},{"start":9804.016,"end":9827.811,"text":"今天就會發函就對了啦 儘快我想今天 我們這個禮拜好不好這個禮拜我們發函給地方政府就要去查明嘛這事情很重要的因為漁電共生是你的重要政策嘛現在一定又加速在推動 現在核電5月17號又停了一定又推得更急更急你已經發現有一些是違反你的規定了違反規定已經出現那麼多悲劇了我剛才說過 那真的是"},{"start":9829.518,"end":9857.396,"text":"一個農夫好好的本來過日子結果聽信你國營事業、台研綠能弄到後來腦中風兒子還辭掉工作要回來照顧爸爸現在繼續抗爭趕快看、趕快幫他們解決問題好不好第三個第三個就是我要講要怎麼去幫忙了對於現行你去查過後你有發現是超過40%的這個不合規定了嘛其實養不活就不是一定共生了嘛可是你在一方面提一個改善的計畫的時候你要原理"},{"start":9858.121,"end":9881.66,"text":"這些漁民現在是受害者 對不對不知道各位嗎 不見得喔不見得是受害者喔 各式各樣 可是像我剛才說的那兩個都是嘛 不一定 因為我現在沒辦法判斷喔因為漁電共生 一定是光電業者 要不然就租地 然後由漁民負責養有的是什麼 純粹是由光電業者養 所以它樣態非常複雜所以我現在沒辦法判斷說一定是漁民受害"},{"start":9882.844,"end":9901.745,"text":"部長我們把樣態集中一下我今天給你質詢的東西都是清清楚楚的第一個第一個就是在餘溫上面你本來說40%它蓋了百分之百到時候我都給你嘛你去看嘛對不對第二個我今天質詢的是非常明確的當初餘溫不能夠超過百分之40是有科學根據的是你水是走的"},{"start":9903.099,"end":9922.238,"text":"這個在法規上已經很明確了而且你都漏食了嘛對不對包括如果養那絲種魚你這邊都是有的嘛所以你要漏食這個嘛好OK你說有很多樣式嘛那如果是我剛剛講的把它凝聚是確實是違法的好那OK那我們就明確你去看過之後一個要清查嘛對不對然後確定去看是有違法的你是不是要考慮一下怎麼去幫國賠或者"},{"start":9924.22,"end":9931.929,"text":"這個我沒辦法同意因為我現在完全不知道因為餘定工生他的彼此之間光定業者跟漁民之間的關係非常複雜"},{"start":9933.379,"end":9961.017,"text":"那有不同的樣態不見得是漁民是受害者這個有時候也是光電是受害者我們所瞭解的當然你要去關心嘛一電共生這幾天的農業部重要政策國家重要政策這個到他們之間的合約的關係這個合約的關係就回到合約去處理不能動不動就國賠所以我們是有共識的去查然後確定如果是農民我們查了以後再看看說那個樣態怎麼樣再走下一步啦所以農民如果是受害我們就要幫他啦"},{"start":9964.479,"end":9979.926,"text":"農民如果是受害我們會來協助他看他怎麼去做後續的處理如果是受害者很明確的受害者我們會來協助來看怎麼樣去跟觀天業者去做相關的處理我用簡短大概時間超過我用30秒跟你講對於那個40%那個事情我去查了資料"},{"start":9986.289,"end":10008.564,"text":"你108年的3月6號本來講是宜溫的40%後來你再過了一個月啊過了一個月4月16號過了16號你有做一個放寬你就要修回來好不好就確定是宜溫40%好不好好啦那個主席已經在講了OK那我們就最終我們要照顧好移民然後把一個月內把它清出來好謝謝保定謝謝休息五分鐘"},{"start":10018.554,"end":10020.677,"text":"好 等一下"},{"start":10055.326,"end":10055.347,"text":"嗯"},{"start":10322.721,"end":10332.53,"text":"好 繼續質詢我們現在請賴慧蓉委員做詢問好 謝主席 請陳部長陳部長"},{"start":10340.706,"end":10348.074,"text":"館長你好這一次的部分特別面對關稅的問題那當然農業部也匡列了180億那我們也希望藉這個機會也調整我們的體質一方面幫助這些受影響的農業一方面也趁機調整體質讓我們更具有競爭力"},{"start":10357.304,"end":10381.033,"text":"我裡面特別想要帶到的是當然冷鏈這塊持續來推那另外我有看到的包括一些認證驗證的部分我也希望持續來加強那我也特別要提一下那個遠洋漁業的部分遠洋漁業的部分當時我們有一些的也是希望能夠有一些專案收購計畫這個部分經費上會不會受到影響"},{"start":10382.179,"end":10401.813,"text":"沒有 我們這次的經費的確我們在我們有被刪了20.14億對 有刪有動有刪有動的部分那我們會盡可能的去我所知道在刪的部分的統刪的部分其實已經一部分就影響到我們收購的這些但是我們想我們盡量去調整其他的"},{"start":10402.313,"end":10403.034,"text":"我們會盡量來調度其他的經費來支持"},{"start":10417.21,"end":10440.265,"text":"另外一個就是其實現在我們這個漁業的MSC的部分這一塊未來也對於拓展我們的歐美的市場也有相當大的幫助我也希望農業部持續來支持好不好這個部分我想跟委員報告特別是在鬼頭刀的部分從FIP到MSC的部分我們已經納入我們整體產業支持方案裡面非常重要的就是協助透過這種標章的認證來做市場的區隔讓我們更順利的能夠將漁產品外交到美國去"},{"start":10445.649,"end":10471.866,"text":"我希望未來朝這個方向就是說歐美這個市場一定要努力的打進去對 我們不會放棄對 這個持續長遠的方向也趁這次機會不斷的調整我們的體質然後可以給這些漁民給這些業者們更多的支持讓他們來具有更強的競爭力那這一次的關稅部分我想都已經做了相關準備那當然現在是180億嘛如果未來有更擴大的影響的話農業部會不會持續往上再增加更多的金錢"},{"start":10472.406,"end":10498.353,"text":"我想是因為現在的關稅的還有它的不確定性嘛還在談判當中對那未來如果關稅確定了以後我們會試關稅的那個最後的那個額度齁如果說經費有不夠的地方我想所以也請所有的農民漁民放心啦齁政府這件事情上會全力的挺住我們的農漁民啦齁就是當然現在是180億但是將來談判結果不論結果出來狀況如果影響有更重大的影響的話政府還會繼續加碼來支持我特別強調齁"},{"start":10500.313,"end":10522.022,"text":"院長也特別指示了就是說所有的政策一定是農業民優先所以這一點也請我們的農業民朋友來放心如果經費不夠的話我想我們一定會跟行政院爭取更多的經費來支持我們的農業我想一定也都會支持從院長到部長甚至到總統我相信都會支持農業民的這些經費絕不能讓農業民在這件事情上面受到影響"},{"start":10523.283,"end":10534.629,"text":"那另外當然歐美這塊市場還是要請部長磁力打進去我們不會放棄美國這塊市場吧是 我們絕對不會放棄而且我們有一部分我們反而趁這個機會還可以去擴大我們的市場的規模對"},{"start":10538.251,"end":10560.567,"text":"所以以關稅來講不同國家有不同的關稅因為美國是面對全世界所以當其他世界有可能更嚴格的時候有可能也是我們的機會產生的時候所以我們應該努力的打進美國的市場再來我想請教一下跟今天也有開始相關的我們現在的動保跟檢疫防疫其實都很需要很多的一些獸醫的人才但是因為很多人是被挖到了"},{"start":10561.187,"end":10586.874,"text":"民間去那當時的時候其實這幾年我們不管是寵物狗寵物貓甚至寵物的相關越來越多人數都持續增加那但是我們的獸醫師反到這個在政府機關內的反甩不開業獎金總統當時也做過承諾這個農業部有開始在做了嗎我想非常謝謝委員的關心而且也是委員一直關切的這個獸醫師的人力那現在獸醫師人力不足最主要是"},{"start":10588.197,"end":10607.594,"text":"公務單位本身的薪水比起外面的還低嘛所以那時候包括委員也在爭取那總統也同意了而且我們也擬定的跟人總也討論過了我們現在已經把獸醫師的不開業獎金已經送到行政院我們希望說能夠盡快的最快什麼時候可以開始來實施"},{"start":10609.291,"end":10631.043,"text":"我個人期待是五月底到六月初啦所以說五月底六月初院裡面支持了以後還是要循這個程序現在已經進到所以人種 農業部支持人種也支持我們跟人種都已經談好相關的這些不開業獎金的金額的部分所以等院宣布支持就可以了院長在之前也宣布他會支持這個方案總統也宣布他要支持這個方案嘛"},{"start":10631.403,"end":10653.54,"text":"所以我希望加快因為看來總統院長都支持希望加快那如果最快五月份有可能就可以來納入這個不開業的獎金我們是朝這個目標來我希望能夠盡快的這個等於更多優秀的人力能夠留在公部門裡面他不出去開業他留在裡面這樣更多人才他們在未來制定政策未來整個制定相關的法規有更強的"},{"start":10655.622,"end":10671.102,"text":"好 謝謝 五月份期待能夠儘速完成那再來是現在的寵物越來越多但是寵物的殯葬大家也越來越關切很多人甚至於要這個要離開的時候但是現在我們的合法業者非常的少甚至於很多的收費亂象部長 這個怎麼來處理"},{"start":10673.524,"end":10697.822,"text":"這個部分我覺得過去會有亂象最主要是彼此之間沒有一個合約的關係都是漫天喊價的關係所以我想我們農業部也針對這個議題部長那有定型化契約了嗎我們現在我們預計大概6月底就會公布這個定型化契約範本6月份會公布定型化契約的範本有這個範本以後我想所有的大家都要照這個範本來做的話就會減少相關的糾紛"},{"start":10701.224,"end":10730.315,"text":"好 那另外各個地方政府的部分它的殯葬的自治法規這一塊會去推動嗎現在大概有六個地方政府有在努力啦會鼓勵大家來盡量來訂定這樣的一個自治規範嗎我們現在目前就是相關的殯葬那個寵物生命紀念設施本身我們希望把這些相關的審查的權利都下放到地方政府那地方政府這樣審查都能夠加快它的速度這個部分我想我們也朝這個方向積極的在做"},{"start":10731.075,"end":10757.092,"text":"積極跟地方政府溝通好不好因為毛小孩寵物這個局越來越多了它其實對於人類其實有更多的這個很多人都其實跟毛小孩之間的感情也都很深厚甚至於它很多的陪伴的效果我希望這一塊時代的趨勢上是如此應該政府要更加重視那希望協助更多的地方政府來更有一些清楚的規範讓整個更具有相關的權益更加的清楚會 我想"},{"start":10758.172,"end":10768.785,"text":"動物的福利的重視是一個社會文明的指標啦對然後對於這種所謂的毛小孩或寵物的最後的一段路的話我們更應該給予尊重啦是這是我想農業部的態度所以我們講後續我們會更積極的針對後面的這些"},{"start":10773.07,"end":10788.044,"text":"生命紀念的設施的部分甚至於很多的一些公開資訊政府也應該更加的協助好不好當這些確認清楚的時候對於大家就有更多遵循的一些依據好不好這個請那另外我想請教一下寵物食品管理法的部分現在進入到哪邊了"},{"start":10788.624,"end":10817.993,"text":"寵物食品管理法現在在我們部裡面在法規會審查那我是要求五月底要完成相關的內部的審查送行政院所以五月底要送行政院然後我目標是在下個會期就可以提出來因為寵物食品的管理法希望下個會期完成三讀的程序對那個寵物食品的專法的部分它從原料的進來到生產製造銷售到標示跟它的產品安全都有一完整的一個規範我們希望說盡快的能夠上路"},{"start":10818.573,"end":10839.649,"text":"這個也越來越重要啦因為現在的寵物家裡越來越多人飼養寵物的時候那你的食品的部分他到底從吃的東西從哪裡來他的管制各方面的甚至於他可能衍生後續的很多的一些問題我認為應該有更清楚的一個規範那剛剛部長提到了嘛五月份會送出布裡面這邊嘛那下個會期送進立法院我們希望下個會期來完成這個三讀的程序啦讓"},{"start":10844.252,"end":10866.565,"text":"寵物的食品 也要請委員來支持啦這個一定支持啦我覺得這個是實際上面的現況就是大家更多寵物甚至於很多的食品到底哪裡來的它的一些相關的規範安全的一些部分都並沒有那麼明確我認為這個也都會是很多市主上遇到的問題啦我們希望更清楚的規範之後讓這個市場更加的明確同時也讓所有的寵物能夠有更安全的一些食品好不好"},{"start":10867.465,"end":10884.36,"text":"再來我最後請教一下現在很多的寵物的用品在家裡面有很多的寵物也都會拿那甚至有多更小的小朋友們可能都會影響到這個會不會能夠去建立一個標準的規範我也非常重視寵物的這些玩具之類的東西"},{"start":10885.06,"end":10911.547,"text":"那相對的他可能還有一些有毒的物質如果沒有管制好的話所以後續我們會比照類似我們的那個安全的用玩具的安全玩具的這個標準跟標章什麼時候可以來訂定這個應該一併也是在6月這個應該並不困難吧因為已經有很多的安全的標章有了對我們要參照那個安全玩具的標章我希望建立一個安全的標章好不好然後訂定清楚讓消費者選擇或者讓所有人有一個很清楚的依序我想我們會盡快來處理6月份嗎"},{"start":10913.507,"end":10940.188,"text":"五月份六月份我們六月份好不好六月份來好不好六月份把它訂定出來好不好因為出來之後一般這除了是對寵物的影響之外家裡如果有小小孩有時候有可能會受到一些影響對我知道對他有可能受到影響所以我希望這個東西照我們的一些相關的標章把它訂定出來之後那讓所有選購有一個清楚的依據哪些是政府做會認可安全的一個標準寵物的用具寵物的玩具好不好好謝謝部長好謝謝委員的提醒謝謝"},{"start":10940.868,"end":10962.759,"text":"好謝謝我們現在請邱志偉委員做詢答謝謝主席有請農業部陳部長陳部長動思物防疫檢疫署許署長許署長"},{"start":10968.402,"end":10990.808,"text":"這個部長,我們在桃園機場,它有這個動植液,就是回國的這個國人啊,他的所提的行李要再經過安檢一次,對不對?那主要目的是什麼?最主要是偵測,夾帶有這種動植物本身不可攜帶的這些物品,特別是要檢疫的。委外嗎?"},{"start":10992.202,"end":11020.422,"text":"委外嗎一部分委外委外的人力啦全部委外嘛我看不到你們的人啦我看不到你們的人全部都是委外的你一年經費會變多少錢有將近五億五億就執行這個安檢五億那執行這是在所有的在境外安檢的部分安檢的部分大概差不多一億一億好小港議長有沒有"},{"start":11022.836,"end":11052.163,"text":"小港機場沒有為什麼小港機場沒有空間的問題應該全國一致嘛你只要是港口只要是海關只要是機場應該是一致的嘛都從國外都從國外回來啊為什麼只有桃園機場我跟委員報告齁就是小港機場因為它的停機坪下來以後的那個空間的空間的動線的問題你不能因為空間但是它在海關那邊但是它在海關那邊有檢查全部檢查那你桃園機場你就把它撤掉用海關來檢查就好啦不是"},{"start":11052.603,"end":11079.478,"text":"那桃園市長因為人流比較多部長你不能一國多智我們給你一億就要做好這個邊境管制避免從國外攜帶這個農食產品對不對包括這個豬瘟的問題等等有綠色有紅色對不對我們多一個程序為了一個把關那你只有桃園市長有好我支持你但你要落實怎麼樣落實要專業人來看"},{"start":11081.397,"end":11109.261,"text":"是不是專業 有沒有收穫訓練他們說有收穫訓練啊有沒有證照他們看得出來這個是違禁品嗎那我請教你好 一年查獲多少 多少件數來 一年查獲多少一年查獲在全國來講應該原則上差不多全國只有一處而已啊對不對 只有朝陽機場有啊 崧山機場有沒有 崧山機場雙向沒有也沒有嘛那你不能一國多治啊 你要做就做徹底啊"},{"start":11110.595,"end":11128.189,"text":"我們給你預算你就好好去執行不要有任何破口不要有任何漏洞嘛跟委員說你原則上我們是因地制宜啦因為在台灣機場它整個台灣機場比較危險啊沒有它整個進來的整個人流其實它超乎我們在我們所有的不能因為人流多你就"},{"start":11129.7,"end":11149.601,"text":"你就管制人流少小港機場這個人流有不少耶那航班也不少啊在其他的機場比如說像在松崎還有在小港機場有的上海關幫忙那我們人員 政治人員也在現場那你海關可以幫忙的話我就跟你講你在移椅我們就把它砍掉了是不是給你移椅是要做好邊境管制嘛"},{"start":11150.402,"end":11171.468,"text":"對不對 你就要全面去落實所以我看了很多 台中也有國際競技場 對不對好 我們就小港 松山跟桃園我就覺得為什麼你這個桃園有 松山跟小港沒有另外啊 你們確實執行有沒有這個專業技術你執行查核多少數量 裁罰金額多少"},{"start":11173.17,"end":11192.449,"text":"這個資料是要請會後提供不要留意形勢或者不要有這個因地制宜防疫沒有因地制宜的啦高雄防疫比較強是不是高雄防疫比較弱我跟委員報告你所提的我會後會請環境局來檢討我已經提供好幾次了你去現場看看他們是怎麼在檢查的有沒有專業"},{"start":11200.104,"end":11222.015,"text":"這個我曾經到機場去視察過那這些檢查在那邊我沒有去視察我經過十幾次我當然充分配合也觀察這個他們檢查動線檢查流程沒有看到一個防檢局的人一位都沒有你可以完全委外嗎那麼公權力怎麼執行呢"},{"start":11224.645,"end":11230.73,"text":"證明好好確實檢討所以我們會來檢討不要講一講用什麼 欸明天就忘了不會這個齁 這個局長 那個誰局長 這個你要用心點 你要去看一下然後你要檢討一下為什麼小港不需要為什麼松山不需要 交給海關就可以了這個不是理由齁 你沒有辦法說服我另外這個"},{"start":11254.468,"end":11275.43,"text":"部長你去過日本跟韓國嗎應該常常去日本韓國不管是都會區或者一般的鄉村區流浪口是不是很少很少為什麼韓國跟日本流浪口那麼少你們有這個原因在哪裡這要不要說明一下您知不知道我先問你您知不知道"},{"start":11277.486,"end":11296.701,"text":"他甚至可以工作別人可以做到那麼好你應該去學習啊出國你就是了解別的其他國家哪一點做得好我們可以去學習你們可以跟相關的他們的單位主管單位去請教去學習或者去交流他們怎麼把流浪狗 流浪犬做好管理"},{"start":11297.521,"end":11322.482,"text":"我所了解就是說其實飼主責任是一個非常重要的關鍵那在日本因為牠有冬天所以牠的流浪狗本身冬天牠就不出來了沒有 台灣還有零撲殺這個政策那現在零撲殺的一些抓捕都是用收容所的量牠們對動物是 犬貓是非常友善的國度而如果有效的做好管理"},{"start":11323.673,"end":11338.113,"text":"給犬貓一個友善的環境那又沒有流浪犬貓造成的問題人家做得很好啊那我問你主管機關人家哪裡做得好你答不出來代表你沒有做功課來 市長"},{"start":11341.55,"end":11366.028,"text":"那個報告委員那個日韓主要的部分是兩個部分第一個是在施主責任的要求那這部分的要求是有相對徹底的那第二個部分那他們針對不同的一個地區的一個處理有採取不同的措施那他們今天我們可以學習嗎我們這要修法能不能入法呢目前我們一直朝這個方向在做那個法制上的建構人家做得到我們沒有做不到的道理啦"},{"start":11367.338,"end":11393.108,"text":"做不到就是我們主管機關這個沒有做好法治面不足 執行面不夠我就不相信人家做得到韓國韓國能做得到我們做不到我們一天到晚還在為流浪犬冒問題因為我一個選民因為流浪犬衝出來他下班途中"},{"start":11394.181,"end":11400.552,"text":"一個五十幾歲的一個媽媽這樣衝出來反映墓跡水淚殘人家就知道了這種絕對不是個案"},{"start":11410.881,"end":11429.652,"text":"流動權好好管理我在問你的報告裡面你103到11110年你編的多少錢補助各縣市來新建這個東部收容處所報告委員如果這10年的話平均大概應該是每年大概2億總共編的多少錢目前應該是編到18億"},{"start":11432.455,"end":11458.85,"text":"你就照你的報告來看 你的報告寫給我 照你的報告來問你嘛你編了二十億 補助二十一個縣市嘛 對不對那我目前啊 全國公立收容所總進可收容幾隻犬貓加起來總共有幾隻應該一萬一千隻一萬一千隻 這算是正確的你未來從一一四到一一九 還有沒有相關計畫"},{"start":11461.767,"end":11476.334,"text":"應該有持續嗎?報告委員,我們目前有提一支忠誠的計畫,那目前院還沒核定忠誠的計畫叫什麼名字?那個友善動物保護計畫的第二期錯!114-119是擴展動物收容量及場域優化計畫哪有第二期?哪有第二期?你會報告,你就沒心錯,你主管的機關在做什麼?"},{"start":11489.317,"end":11514.642,"text":"你來這裡不是說坐在那裡沒什麼事我們有準備我早上六點有來出門有時候就在那裡幫你擠筍子看你有準備沒有看你有好好的做行為沒有我站在你那裡不幫你問你怎麼打不出來我怎麼樣對你們有信心嘛是不是剩下的我其他用順便來問時間到了"},{"start":11517.3,"end":11539.756,"text":"農業部要加油啦 謝謝委員 我想我們會檢討我剛剛問的問題 我會繼續再追我希望你們讓國人能夠安心讓全貓有一個好的環境一個友善的環境把這些問題全部根除 根本解決日韓做得到 我們沒有理由做不到加油吧"},{"start":11540.879,"end":11559.491,"text":"好 謝謝現在做一下宣告我們中午不休息延長開會時間現在請張家俊委員做巡檔謝謝主席那我想請部長陳部長"},{"start":11562.93,"end":11578.318,"text":"部長剛才這個邱志偉委員在問有關於這個在入境的時候這個審查本席也接到很多的澄清就是說只要是從不是日本或者是歐美國家回來的都需要領一個"},{"start":11579.779,"end":11599.818,"text":"就是沒有一個卡然後必須在機場接受檢驗但是有很多鄉親意思說我也沒有手提行李啊但是他就必須大排長龍而且那個隊伍甚至高達一個小時是不是部長這邊能夠安排說檢查你有手提行李的你才檢查你沒有手提行李的你讓他在那裡排隊這樣合理嗎"},{"start":11602.332,"end":11629.981,"text":"我想第一個部分就是我們因為人流的關係我們是針對高風險區的時候才會進到手提行李的部分那你剛才說的在高風險區進來的話他沒有手提行李是不是要分流一下可以把它分流對對把它分流他沒有行李他也等了一個多小時然後他問現場說我沒有行李我可以先走嗎他說不行你要在這裡排隊那就不合理嘛好不好這個現在應該是不用吧沒有現在要這個禮拜天這個禮拜天我才有鄉親打電話來"},{"start":11632.182,"end":11635.907,"text":"現在打電話來抗議蔡昌清打電話來抗議而且這個都是一些企業家怎麼大家一群企業家去開會全部被塞在那個隊伍裡面好不好部長這一點如果說沒有帶行李的話我想我們用分流的方式來處理是這一點麻煩部長"},{"start":11650.205,"end":11669.815,"text":"那另外部長最近有很多返鄉從農的這些親農朋友就提出了一些困難點那我也想在這裡跟部長反映希望部長能夠正面回應協助解決那現行規定中農民如果要申請外籍移工通常需要具備這個農保資格"},{"start":11671.616,"end":11686.952,"text":"那我手上就有一個非常值得作為檢討範例的案例喔那我先問一下部長說部長您歡迎說過去可能是等於是勞保然後他可能非志願離職之後回到從事農業這樣子的勞動力嗎"},{"start":11690.896,"end":11707.236,"text":"我想這個是也是我們從事農業的來源之一啦就是過往他還年輕但是過往曾經從事其他的工作用勞保的方式那後來返鄉勿農以後我覺得這塊人也是需要照顧的所以部長是歡迎的是歡迎他們回來那"},{"start":11708.577,"end":11736.812,"text":"我舉例一下這個農民當初因為非自願離職遭資遣那符合勞保條例第9條之一規定說被裁減資遣且加保年資滿15年以上的這個勞工可以繼續參加勞保直到符合請領老人給付的日期那也就是可以一路加保到50歲因此呢他選擇就留在勞保體系當中確保更完整的這個退休保障那"},{"start":11738.553,"end":11764.084,"text":"選擇什麼樣子的社會福利是他身為公民的一個權益也是法律給他的保障那他來成農應該對於我們農業也是一個正面的幫助那所以我就想說部長那他已經確定回鄉復農多年但現在這不是個案喔因為他是勞保不是農保所以他在申請農業移工的時候面臨重重困難部長你可以有替他們解套的方案嗎"},{"start":11765.816,"end":11774.314,"text":"一個部分他如果原來城市農保他可以轉農保他的權益不會變他的權益不會變怎麼會不會變我也請我們的老保的那個同仁怎麼不會變"},{"start":11776.104,"end":11799.265,"text":"根委員報告他如果從勞保然後退保要參加農保只要符合我們農保的規定我現在在跟你講的就是我們的政府保障他身為公民的權益哪一種社會福利他怎麼選擇是他公民的權益他保勞保對他的下半身保障他可能退休一個月可以領一萬多他轉農保"},{"start":11801.267,"end":11814.878,"text":"他一個月只能領八千多 你可以理解嗎當然他希望他繼續勞保啦這是他身為公民的權益選擇不同的社會福利是他的權益欸你怎麼會說你可以退保加入農保啊你知道我真正在問你的問題嗎部長他不了解叫他去旁邊欸 部長"},{"start":11818.781,"end":11842.853,"text":"部長我在問你他不理解這個問題我知道我知道你不理解來部長就說那個輕農他可以選擇他原來要繼續在這個勞保體系或者他要加農保他要衡量他自身的這個權利是所以我問的不是這個問題我問的是假設他要升起移工他必須要農保那有沒有其他的解套方案呢"},{"start":11843.713,"end":11861.415,"text":"以現在目前的規定是沒有辦法因為以農業部來講我們是針對農保本身從事農業的人我們會來協助他申請外籍移工但是你剛才告訴我說你歡迎他們回來你歡迎他們回來務農但是你沒有辦法解決他們的困難"},{"start":11862.776,"end":11882.92,"text":"不具農保資格的部分如果你有銷售農產品的憑證的話這個我知道 全年銷售金額25萬以上或者是投入農資15萬以上並附佐證可是真正的困難就在這裡了 部長真正的困難就是實際上這套程序從佐證 舉證 審查到核可上難度明顯"},{"start":11888.257,"end":11905.331,"text":"高出農保非常的多那這一點呢我相信如果您去問實際執行這農糧署基層的單位一定可以了解很清楚說真的是困難重重所以我現在要跟部長反映的就是說我們既然歡迎這些勞動力回到"},{"start":11906.152,"end":11908.896,"text":"農業那我們有沒有辦法去解決他們的問題呢就是說你這個舉證的流程你審查的流程有沒有辦法簡化或者是放寬讓他們實際可以得到我們農業農糧單位的一個幫助呢"},{"start":11922.856,"end":11937.254,"text":"我想第一個部分如果在程序上能夠簡化我一定要求我們農養署盡快的把它簡化那第二個部分就是你剛才說的這些金額是不是有可能放寬那其實以現在來講它的生產資財一年15萬其實"},{"start":11939.557,"end":11944.5,"text":"合理 合理我只是希望說他的申請流程一定要簡化而且就是說你舉證你要讓他有多一點的舉證空間你不是說局限在什麼什麼因為你也知道現在農業你要開發票是很困難的你是不是有什麼購買的交易的評證等等"},{"start":11962.392,"end":11983.878,"text":"那包括說是不是他有沒有實際在務農其實我知道說你們規範這麼嚴格是怕說沒有實際在務農的人他也要利用這個等於是compound來請農業移工但是我是希望說真正需要的人我沒有想辦法去幫助他們甚至很多農會都可以舉證說這個人是不是有實際在從事農業是不是能夠放寬這個舉證的"},{"start":11988.699,"end":11997.545,"text":"條件 那還有多一點舉證的空間 而不是說單一說 你一定要什麼什麼那等於是限制了很多人 都沒有辦法來受到我們這個農業部的幫助"},{"start":12001.172,"end":12012.484,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒我想這個部分針對整個的流程包括你舉證的流程包括舉證的這些單據看怎麼樣的簡化我想我們會請農糧署來做一個檢討然後重新來規定麻煩部長了這個我覺得對於我們現在面臨的農業問題是一個很好的解決辦法因為"},{"start":12022.014,"end":12034.806,"text":"他們要回來我們都很高興啊那這些比較年輕的勞動力願意回頭投身到農業等於為我們這個農業注入一股活水啊但是他們面臨的問題比過去務農的這些傳統的務農的這些老農"},{"start":12038.65,"end":12055.067,"text":"更多元更不一樣那另外一個另外一個我必須要講喔就是說友善環境植物保護資材補助這個政策喔其實非常受歡迎非常受歡迎呢就是等於是補助有機肥料那在補助農民減少"},{"start":12057.809,"end":12071.74,"text":"化學農藥的使用轉而採用生物農藥那補助的金額是購買憑證所列的金額的二分之一申請是從年初到經費用完喔那今年的預算編列多少您知道嗎"},{"start":12073.592,"end":12102.361,"text":"大概六千五百萬六千四百九十幾萬大概六千五百萬左右六千四百六十九萬那是從這個農業發展基金所提撥的那它雖然是依各縣市農業現況來分配雲林也拿到了算是一個高的配比21%的對一千三百多對一個滿高的一個配比但是呢實際能夠仍然沒有辦法滿足實際的需求通常一開放喔"},{"start":12103.659,"end":12120.158,"text":"1月就用完了1月就申請完了所以這一點我必須要跟部長提醒說因為農友們之間會互相交流在其他的縣市類似桃園南投申請的難度就"},{"start":12120.839,"end":12146.233,"text":"比較低 因為他們的作物多元 不夠多元他們作物比較單一所以他們可能使用這個這個友善環境植物保護的資材比較少那是不是有辦法重新調配說需求比較低的地方他的比例可以釋放出來甚至說甚至說是不是整體的預算規模太小要不要增加這個預算規模呢"},{"start":12146.893,"end":12173.822,"text":"我第一個跟委員報告這個預算規模大概一年都是六千多萬左右那以去年來講如果不夠的時候我們還會去爭取相關的這些二倍金的部分不過今年就比較困難了因為今年我們在預算刪減的時候公務撥補基金被刪了九千萬雖然說刪得很少這個是一點點而已不對但是因為你刪了以後都不能動二倍金"},{"start":12175.004,"end":12191.383,"text":"我跟部長講部長 假設你真正有需求你提出我們本委員會不會不支持只要是地方真正的需求沒有 這個我一定要跟委員報告齁其他的經費刪減是一件事情但是你刪的公務撥補基金雖然說刪的九千萬很少"},{"start":12191.863,"end":12212.358,"text":"但是一旦刪的話依規定就不能動二倍金是 這個我們大家再來討論我先跟部長講就是說那針對這個友善植物環境保護的資產補助這個總預算你可不可以考慮下年度可以把它編高一點對 那今年是沒辦法下個年度我們希望能夠編高第二個部分"},{"start":12213.018,"end":12230.613,"text":"就像委員講的不同縣市它可能在時間上在種類上像雲林市比較多樣化所以我也要求防險署這邊分兩次然後第二次的時候如果說其他的縣市沒有用完的話我們就做調整大概用這種方式做調整因為真的有一些縣市它的作物比較單一它用不上"},{"start":12237.819,"end":12243.801,"text":"那是不是這個等於是用在真正有需要的地方我們盡可能做調度啦對 謝謝部長謝謝部長那最後我想可能時間也有限了那最後這一次特別預算4100億裡面本來我們農業部是說可以分到180億那"},{"start":12256.845,"end":12280.135,"text":"又增加了這個 等於是從880億增加到930億裡面我們農業部有沒有增加呢沒有 我們農業部還是維持180億這一點會不會太少了 我想部長一定要極力再爭取多一點我想第一個現在的關稅 最後的關稅還沒有確定嘛那萬一以後關稅定案以後 如果比現在的衝擊還大的時候我想我們一定會再向行政院去爭取經費"},{"start":12281.516,"end":12297.645,"text":"而且我目前本席聽到就是上次我們去關心那個台灣貂所有的中盤商現在現在上次我們不是說應該危機可以化為轉機嗎結果現在中盤商都出去壓低那個漁民的價格欸最近持邊價就已經上漲了2塊到5塊"},{"start":12298.646,"end":12324.215,"text":"沒有 昨天那好幾個那個產銷班都來跟我講 那個養殖班啊都來跟我講說直接產地價下殺10人如果有那個產地 產銷班的資訊你可以給我們我們可以來處理對啊 太可惡了 這裝盤商下去就直接給他殺10塊這可能是有特定的產銷班 那個產銷班去壓價啦對啊 太可惡了我想變成要個案去處理啦好啊好啊 那這一點也要拜託部長我們來處理 謝謝"},{"start":12326.869,"end":12341.097,"text":"好 謝謝我們現在請郭玉琴委員做詢答好 謝謝主席有請部長陳部長委員好"},{"start":12349.741,"end":12375.679,"text":"部長還記得這個不久這個新竹縣的一個動保團體苦追了大概有半年掌握了越南移工捕殺流浪貓犬跟山羌甚至石虎這樣子的一個案件那好不容易他們向這個彰化的動保處來做檢舉但是卻被動保處以沒有公權力為由所以他們轉而向警方來做投訴那後來警方也只能從旁去協助那到最後他們是找了這個"},{"start":12378.06,"end":12394.065,"text":"這個議員 這個江和樹議員但是因為江和樹議員把這個部分納為 揭露了他們苦追了半年原本應該可以抓到三十幾位涉案的人員現在目前只有一位被函送那這個部分其實也凸顯了一個問題就是沒有公權力這個問題"},{"start":12395.205,"end":12418.598,"text":"我想在去年的3月1號我想部長應該印象還深刻那時候您是代理部長所以那個時候其實我已經在這個總諮詢的時候已經明定了應該要從中央到地方我們要建立這個動保專責的一個單位就是能夠來及時制止這個加害者的一個執法的一個權利這是我第一次針對動保警察的事件來提出我的總諮詢"},{"start":12419.538,"end":12430.685,"text":"那個時候其實我們也有一個共識也有一個方向而且這個東寶警察的事件其實從2011年到2013年其實我們的民團就已經不斷的在倡議當中了但是呢"},{"start":12431.772,"end":12460.524,"text":"到了去年的6月28號總諮詢 另外一次總諮詢我想部長應該也又被我問到這一題了也是共識我們是賦予凍檢員司法警察權我們往這個方向來前進 當時部長也非常非常的肯定那我們當然也對這個部分所謂的凍保警察的一個編制我們也報了一份的信心但是呢到了這個去年的11月13號我在經濟委員會當中我再次的用凍保警察這個部分來"},{"start":12462.545,"end":12474.579,"text":"來做質詢那時候部長也承諾說會納入委員也就是我的一個意見來提出這個修法的一個版本但非常的遺憾到昨天我們確定向農業部動保司這邊來做確定動保司這邊"},{"start":12478.022,"end":12494.295,"text":"給我們的答案是賦予司法警察權將對體制造成嚴重的負擔實務上沒有辦法安排現有的人力接受長期的一個訓練所以不宜禁於修法推動沒有法規沒有編制當然就不會有源而我覺得這個部分是不是本末倒置了"},{"start":12495.543,"end":12508.087,"text":"我第一個跟委員說明就是我印象中在11月13日的時候我提出另外一個因為那時候在六月多的質詢的時候我們也曾經跟內政部做了一些討論事實上在更早之前在這個內閣之前也討論了"},{"start":12512.248,"end":12534.39,"text":"最主要是警察配合動保檢查人員當時配合得還不錯就是當你動檢員有需求的話警察就會來協助介入嘛介入來做這個處理但往往我們在事件發生當下比方說我們是一般民眾發生所謂的他檢舉了有人虐待動物他們過去的那個時間其實也會拉得很長對就是那個時間差的問題"},{"start":12536.212,"end":12556.133,"text":"那後來跟相關的內政部討論的時候他們還是覺得說能夠在我們自己的體制裡面去做處理所以我在11月份的時候也曾經提到一個用凍保檢查官就是凍檢的官就是類似是消保官的概念有沒有我那時候有提出來消保官的概念來去做因為現在最重要就是"},{"start":12557.074,"end":12580.1,"text":"跨縣市的還有中央跟地方還有一些地方的協調的部分那用動保官的方式來做協調那如果說我們把現在目前的動保檢察員賦予他的一個調查權力的話再賦予動保官的話那相對的也可以當作也可以取代現在目前的動保警察我現在我們回過頭來講我剛剛講到動保警察這個是真的"},{"start":12581.1,"end":12603.973,"text":"我們倡議了很久每一個委員幾乎也都會在部會的質詢當中也都會提到這個部分但問題是我們昨天接到的是這樣子的一個答案其實對很多人覬覦動保警察可以在我們在動物保護的這一塊發揮公權力的同時其實對這個答案對他們來講是非常非常令人失望的答案"},{"start":12605.101,"end":12628.927,"text":"我了解其實剛才委員所提到的我覺得我們同仁寫得不好當你入法以後就有編制就有原額你沒有入法就沒有編制就有原額所以我剛剛講了所以應該是反過來兩個是因果關係我剛剛講你沒有法規沒有編制當然就不會有原額但是你現在不能跟我講說因為人力不足所以我們現在不宜修法這個整個本末導致的一個這個回應我覺得實務上應該是"},{"start":12632.208,"end":12657.726,"text":"我們在處理動保法有很多不同的意見那我們都是有共識的我們先處理那以動保警察來講在部會之間的共識還沒有那我們的共識大概要處理多久因為從去年的第一個會期的3月1號我總質詢到現在已經經過了一年了我們還要多久什麼時候會有一個明確的一個共識可以出來可以讓我們有一個方向應該這邊有內政部的同仁吧是不是 有沒有"},{"start":12661.866,"end":12676.112,"text":"什麼時候什麼時候我們需要知道什麼時候因為這是從不管是之前誰執政到現在為止其實動保警察這個議題我們講了十幾年我知道我是可以請內政部就這個議題他們以他們部的立場然後我們再來啟動協調"},{"start":12682.47,"end":12696.428,"text":"我是內政部警政署行政署組長那針對這個動保警察這部分那實際上有幾點要提出報告就是說我現在其實沒有這麼多的時間我們事後給我辦公室一份報告好不好可以嗎"},{"start":12697.83,"end":12714.19,"text":"目前來講廣義的這個警察 當然我知道廣義的動保警察警察的人力是有限的但是因為我們跟農業部之前已經取得共識就是我們賦予所謂的動檢員他們有相對的可以執法的一個公權力"},{"start":12715.091,"end":12727.866,"text":"像我剛剛講的這個例子我們原本可以抓到三十幾個就是越南移工非法捕獵三槍甚至是石虎還有很多的流浪貓捲本來可以抓到三十幾個可是就因為我們的動保處就因為地方的動保處"},{"start":12731.69,"end":12750.411,"text":"沒有公權力這五個字一出現我們現在就是自害難行啊本來可以抓到三十幾個現在只有一個人被含送這個就是一個很大的問題啊農業部拜託想一下辦法我們往這個方面去去去有一點共識至少有一點成果給大家一個期待可以嗎我想兩個方式一個方式就是"},{"start":12752.006,"end":12767.643,"text":"我們會再跟內政部討論就是動保檢察員賦予司法的權責如果說內政部不反對就是由農業部這邊來處理然後包括後面的訓練由他們帶訓那這個部分我想委員就可以直接提案入法"},{"start":12768.163,"end":12792.022,"text":"入法以後我們就來處理好我們講的就是我們有法規才有編制才有緣和嘛對不對這個順序應該是這樣嘛不要回答我是反過來的順序說我們人力不夠所以沒辦法入法應該要有法規才有分明的編制最後一個問題我想這是公立收容所的一個問題我想爆倉的問題這個從2017年我們零撲殺之後其實不管是空間也好環境也好其實真的都造成很多的公立收容所他們在"},{"start":12792.702,"end":12812.939,"text":"整個所有內部收容的一個狀況那麼我們來看留於五年以上的是佔百分之二十那你要知道流氓貓狗其實如果真的待在收容所裡頭長達五年以上幾乎都是老的幾乎都是生病的但是也因為這樣孕育了很多的所謂的私人的收容所很多的愛爸愛媽他們的一個"},{"start":12814.76,"end":12836.241,"text":"私人收容所那時候其實我們跟這個動保處這邊我們真的也都有在溝通不管是地方的動保處也好或者是我們農業部這邊動保室也好我們都有在講是不是怎麼樣可以輔導這些所謂的私人的收容所讓他合法讓他入我們的一個管理我們把他弄成一個生命教育的園區來做這樣子的一個推廣一方面來減輕"},{"start":12837.202,"end":12856.202,"text":"公立收容所的一個收容的這個數量的壓力二方面其實我們也讓很多的生命教育讓我們的生命教育從小扎根讓它變成一個可以觀光的園區可以來學習生命教育的園區這個對他們來講其實真的我們是可以兩贏的這樣的一個方面我們這個部分可以進一步再來做研議嗎可以嗎"},{"start":12856.983,"end":12879.872,"text":"我非常認同委員所提到的就是說完全不能只靠公立的收容所那怎麼樣讓公立跟民間的收容所能夠成為一個協同協助的角色是非常重要的雖然說我們現在的動保法並沒有把這個民間的收容納入但是我想委員的版本有一些版本有納入那到時候審查的時候我想我們共同朝這個方向來做討論"},{"start":12881.613,"end":12909.778,"text":"我們現在得到您朝共同的方向但不要讓我聽了這一屆做完之後我還是聽不到真正的方向可以嗎可以 我想我們接下來討論主調討論的時候我們就把它確定下來好 那當然還有所謂這個公務照護的技術師啊但因為時間的關係我們用書面的我們到時候再請六月底這邊一起來願意六月底就會 上次有跟您承諾六月底就會送出來這個相關的指引好 謝謝部長 是謝謝主席好 謝謝現在請羅廷維委員做詢答"},{"start":12919.605,"end":12920.607,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉 有請部長陳部長"},{"start":12929.045,"end":12954.825,"text":"委員好部長好部長很多的委員對這個凍保警察都非常非常的支持包括我也是那我想在這個警察這兩字用在這邊對大家來說尤其是內政部其實他們是有蠻多的疑慮的那所以他們有一些自己的建議但我要講就是說其實基本上我們遇到的就是不管是你所謂的凍檢員或是凍保官"},{"start":12955.766,"end":12983.442,"text":"其實有很多東西我們都希望在文字上能夠去修正但主要是希望能夠賦予更多的公權力去執法那我們看到勞檢員勞動檢查法你不依勞動檢查法去規避甚至是拒絕做勞動檢查有3到15萬的一個罰款那凍檢的部分我們希望能夠給予更多的一些武器跟利器但是你也有提到一個很重要的就是沒有人力"},{"start":12984.52,"end":12992.386,"text":"那我想問一下你知道我們現在動保事件多半都是怎麼樣去查獲的嗎最一開始"},{"start":12993.78,"end":13021.401,"text":"這個通常都是民眾的一個檢舉最大宗的都是檢舉不管我們最近台中其實也蠻多有所謂的棄養路邊丟狗甚至有最近發生的就是捕犬貓食物來做食用販賣這些東西多半有可能一開始都是透過檢舉那我們我想要一個觀點跟你分享你知道現在警察有疫警"},{"start":13022.262,"end":13032.264,"text":"有民防你知道嗎知道透過一些訓練成為一個類似輔助志工的一個隊伍但是動保呢"},{"start":13033.223,"end":13054.04,"text":"有沒有這樣子透過專業的一個訓練把它納入當然有多半的都是所謂的公民團體他們在幫忙協助動保團體那我們非常感謝他們的一個協助但是能不能給予更多的資源先讓他們能夠加入這些動保的行列的時候有更多的保障"},{"start":13054.86,"end":13077.631,"text":"甚至有更多的一些資源給他們去用後續依序的慢慢在往我們的所謂的賦予更多的一個權力有所謂的洞檢員那洞檢員可能還會搭配更多的一些志工隊甚至這些志工隊不只是所謂的公民團體我們自己也有所謂的類似屬於洞堡的疫警洞堡的民防"},{"start":13078.371,"end":13091.946,"text":"明智不一定是要用這樣子但是他所賦予的一些相關的專業訓練資源我覺得這個是農業部可以給予更多的一個幫助您覺得這樣子的觀念可以嗎我跟你們報告其實現在就有義務的動物保護的檢查人員"},{"start":13094.629,"end":13116.729,"text":"義務的部分那也是我們的但是能力就我所知道並不是非常現在是比較少所以我想這個區塊是可以好好的去加強來協助因為現在全台灣的動員人員如果沒有記錯的話大概330幾個而已其實並不多啦所以我們整體的人力是不足的那所以幾乎都是靠這些所謂的動保團體公民團體在幫忙"},{"start":13117.85,"end":13136.159,"text":"所以勞動部要怎麼樣加強人力然後賦予更多的一些權力我覺得這是各個要去做一個探討然後多頭馬車去努力去執行的再來上次我有跟你提到農業部支持禁止夜市活體動物作為遊戲贈品希望設置落日條款進行一定時間的一個過渡"},{"start":13137.54,"end":13153.662,"text":"那本席也可以理解設置合理的緩衝期但是想進一步請教一下落日條款設計不能只有形式的過場真正要有助於政策的一個落實請問農業部合理的落日期間是多久半年一年還是兩年三年"},{"start":13154.703,"end":13175.257,"text":"這個部分我們必須要再跟產業因為這個議題在產業溝通的時候有兩極化的反應所以我們才會說在法裡面希望有一個能夠授權中央主管機關能夠指定公告的一個品項有沒有我希望能夠加強溝通趕快去訂定這一方面的一個期程但是我要提醒的是落日的期間"},{"start":13176.378,"end":13204.96,"text":"是不是也會同步要求業者改善動物飼養環境進行輔導落日的期間是否農業部可以建立定期的稽查違規的處理的一個配套我本席認為如果有這樣子的落日條款我們可以接受但是就應該要有明確的落日時間表明確的一個輔導機制協助業者轉型甚至是轉換非動物性商品的一個獎品我想這個落日"},{"start":13206.161,"end":13231.716,"text":"後續有項的違規才加重罰但是中間怎麼輔導這個設計的方案農業部是否能夠承諾在修法協商的時候也補充這個具體的方案我想我們在後續條文協商的時候我們一定會強化這個區塊特別是當如果說在討論的時候能夠受嚴重的話主管機關能夠公告不受這個禁止影響的部分也要有個弱智條款"},{"start":13232.136,"end":13254.49,"text":"在落日的過程中也要達到所謂的友善動物的這樣子的一個精神納在這個區塊裡面不是說你排除了以後就不管它了這個部分我想我們會來積極來處理這個部分我要麻煩你們要積極因為我們點出這些問題那實驗動物來源的缺乏管理我們一直在講實驗動物的這些動保權這個部分現在台灣有192個實驗動物機構每年使用的實驗動物數量高達"},{"start":13262.517,"end":13275.013,"text":"116萬隻還包含這個禽蛋魚胚胚胎等未納入統計的一個動物這代表台灣科學研究中使用動物的規模龐大持續的成長這些動物的來源主要如下國內的繁殖場"},{"start":13278.476,"end":13303.815,"text":"74.28%那自行繁殖的有13.16%在應用的是5.18%那市場或寵物店購買的是3.03%其他的有1.92%野外捕捉的是0.93%然後國外進口是0.82%學術交流是0.68%也就是說超過七成的實驗動物來自於國內的繁殖場而繁殖場的管理狀況如果不加也會影響到"},{"start":13305.076,"end":13324.871,"text":"實驗動物的一個健康狀態以及實驗結果的可信度所以帶到這些數字我希望你們能夠重視相關的國內繁殖場農業部有沒有訂定管理的標準比方說繁殖設置的設立標準動物檢查的疾病篩檢要求以及遺傳背景的登錄管理等等有沒有"},{"start":13325.992,"end":13340.066,"text":"現在的法並沒有做它的修正不過我們用現行法去做授權的執法來處理這個繁殖跟相關的飼養的這些辦法我想動保法超過20年了"},{"start":13341.487,"end":13361.784,"text":"農業部都沒有訂出實驗動物來源管理辦法那這個部分我希望我不是要究責但我希望我們要探討這個問題因為我剛剛已經講了它的健康如果它沒有設立得很好它就會影響到這些實驗動物的健康就會影響到實驗的結果我們希望能夠更加照顧也希望實驗結果有所成效"},{"start":13362.304,"end":13390.491,"text":"所以這個東西是有必要的我希望農業部能夠好好的在這一次修法的當中能夠也把這個實驗動物來源管理辦法的草案能夠訂定出來部長可以承諾嗎我想實驗動物本身因為它現在的機制就有它有一個實驗動物的一個審查辦法它一定是因為做實驗一定是非常重視這些動物的來源我想相關的部分部主我才會點出這個問題我希望你能夠承諾會後我會繼續追對我想這個部分也許可以在"},{"start":13392.152,"end":13396.535,"text":"調溫討論的時候 我們再來討論 看有什麼樣的方式能夠達到委員的意見 想法好 謝謝我們現在請葉元之委員做詢答請農運部長 謝謝陳部長"},{"start":13427.946,"end":13448.237,"text":"針對動保法我這邊有新增14條之三用意是修法的目的是希望能夠把民間的動物的收容數那一定規模的一些飼養戶希望能夠納管取得地方政府的登記或許可避免不當大量飼養動物的行為這個在"},{"start":13449.398,"end":13465.546,"text":"你們回應裡面都是這樣子寫說利益良善但後面這段我就不是太認同你們說但是因為這些收容所樣態複雜而且土地利用正義可能是說他可能在一些違法的土地使用上面做這個收容所所以啊"},{"start":13466.266,"end":13493.851,"text":"因為納管的話很多人會違法倒閉會造成問題所以就覺得不贊成這樣的立法那我其實對於農業部這樣的回應我是非常保留的態度啦以前也有很多未立案的工廠他也是會有土地利用的問題比如說在農地上面或在哪裡上面但是當時經濟部也有訂定未立案工廠的相關的管理辦法然後透過地方政府去輔導他們合法"},{"start":13495.308,"end":13512.746,"text":"過去都可以對於衛利案的工廠可以這樣做為什麼現在對於如果有收養大量飼養戶的這些民間動物送貨所卻因為可能管理很麻煩然後會導致他們可能會土地利用問題所以就不管了這個差別在哪"},{"start":13514.233,"end":13533.556,"text":"我剛才看了我們部裡面同仁回應的這個第二條的部分我也覺得不恰當啦你也覺得不恰當我也覺得不恰當啦因為相關的違法就是違法那不能說違法太多了以後沒辦法管的時候所以你這邊交給立法院的報告部長本人沒看過那你怎麼來備詢"},{"start":13534.875,"end":13560.507,"text":"不是他整個的部分就是相關的他們基本上我這個其實在會前有跟他們討論過因為那時候已經印了列印了所以我在這一次的簡報上面我就沒有寫這一個那對於這個那所以部長你對於你自己交出來這個報告你不認同這也太奇怪了那你沒關係我不為難你啦那所以如果是由你來撰寫的話你會怎麼回答"},{"start":13561.24,"end":13587.574,"text":"我想基本上我們會根據他的情節特別他飼養的這些寵物本身的危險性用這樣的一個動物的分類的概念去處理這樣的一個意義所以還是會納管我是希望是納管的你希望納管大園子還是會納管只是他們在寫這個理由的時候我是覺得文字他這邊就說沒有要納管他說建議還是由地方政府"},{"start":13588.514,"end":13596.063,"text":"以符合動物福祉的飼養方式輔導啊就沒有要納管的意思啊但是部長你現在意思是說你自己是支持就對了"},{"start":13596.952,"end":13621.151,"text":"我基本上是支持這樣的一種看法好 謝謝那接下來因為在總質詢的時候我們有問到川普希望能夠台灣取消一些非關稅的貿易障礙其中他對於我們的豬肉標示原產地一直很有意見這是美國啦美國一直很有意見那我記得部長你在總質詢的時候你回答說這個不是政府要求的這是"},{"start":13622.592,"end":13644.223,"text":"民間自發性的行為那我印象當中就不是這樣所以特別去把當時的一些新聞找出來你看這是那時候中央社報導第二行就很明確的寫得很清楚說政府要求業者必須標示產地然後衛福部跟農委會當時是農委會現在是農業部當時還各自推出標章"},{"start":13645.951,"end":13669.184,"text":"衛福部有自己的台灣做標章農委會也有台灣做標章所以還造成了一個標章之亂在那個時候所以明明就是農業部衛福部要求的然後前農委會主委陳吉仲那個時候在新聞版面上面大幅的出現拿這個標章來做宣導怎麼會現在忽然變成說這個東西跟政府無關這個東西是業者的自發性行為"},{"start":13671.412,"end":13692.603,"text":"我要跟委員報告我們當初設計的台灣豬的標章他在法上面我們是鼓勵我們台灣用台灣豬的商店去貼這個標章所以貼這個標章是屬於自願性的不是強制性的你自己看這中央社國家通訊社我還沒有講完但是整個的"},{"start":13693.323,"end":13712.928,"text":"租的標示的部分是衛福部那衛福部他有他的一個租及租可食部位的一個標示追溯的管理辦法在那個辦法裡面是規定是強制的我覺得部長我覺得你這種講法就有點甩鍋了那個時候誰不知道說是農業部衛福部一直要求大家店家要去貼這個台灣豬標章"},{"start":13713.908,"end":13730.79,"text":"就現在面臨到那個關稅談判的時候忽然又講說那根本沒關係喔如果有貼的話那個是業者的自發性行為喔不貼也沒關係喔你現在的態度就是不貼也沒關係嘛我們是一向是鼓勵那你有沒有鼓...那我問一下政府現在的態度還有沒有鼓勵"},{"start":13731.651,"end":13747.779,"text":"業者貼農業部現在有沒有鼓勵大家還是鼓勵我們還是鼓勵說他本身是使用台灣豬很好你們還是鼓勵嘛我們還是鼓勵好謝謝那如果今天美國說不好意思農業部你不能再鼓勵了衛福部你也不能再鼓勵了"},{"start":13748.559,"end":13776.659,"text":"最好這個標章是越少越好那農業部可以堅持說為了我們的食安或者是為了我們的農業你還是持續鼓勵大家一定要貼這個台灣豬標章嗎我相信我們的鼓勵是不會被挑戰的啦因為所有的鼓勵是業者的願意接受我們的鼓勵去貼的那是自發性的行為所以你是很多東西你都說鼓勵啦譬如說以前蛋價啊你們都會講說你們建議業者啊或者是你們沒有干預啊但實際上農業部有講話誰不會做"},{"start":13778.683,"end":13807.232,"text":"我覺得實務就不是這樣嘛沒有關係部長你剛剛已經承諾了啦因為我們現在就是怕說在關稅談判的時候會影響到我們一些食安的把關嘛那部長你剛剛已經講過你們還會還是會持續鼓勵我們的業者貼台灣做標章我覺得這樣就夠了啦這樣就夠了啦對這樣就夠了啦保護我們的農業嘛保護我們的食安嘛這是政府應該有態度啦就是說美國要幹嘛就幹嘛對我們農業部的職責啊好 謝謝"},{"start":13808.851,"end":13811.033,"text":"謝謝主席 那我們是有請農業部長陳部長部長好"},{"start":13839.022,"end":13849.628,"text":"部長我們事實上在早上9點的時候我們有開記者會我們是集會委員那我們是針對現在是這個關稅那這個國土強韌特別條例強化經濟社會及國土強韌的一個特別條例的一個草案"},{"start":13860.779,"end":13875.386,"text":"那這個草案編列的4100億那我們看到農業的部分大概還是維持180億那我們主要的一個訴求就是說你看從這個關稅的時候原本880億農業部是匡列180億"},{"start":13878.787,"end":13881.789,"text":"現在已經擴張到了4100億的一個規模但是農業的部分還是180億所以我想要請教部長你認為180億足以因應我們接下來因為關稅談判的一個結果"},{"start":13893.958,"end":13918.373,"text":"所對於我們的農水產品造成的衝擊180億過嗎我想跟委員報告就是現在關稅正在談判所以最後的關稅的結果是怎麼樣還有很高的不確定性那以現在10%的30天的暫緩期那在這個短時間之內透過金融支持跟後面的國內外行銷的部分這個經費看起來是足夠的"},{"start":13919.033,"end":13947.976,"text":"但是如果後續如果關稅定案以後關稅的衝擊我們會重新去評估這樣這樣的衝擊如果遠高於我們預期的時候那相對的我們需要更多的經費一定會向行政院去做爭取所以未來未來可能還是會跟行政爭取還是會繼續爭取現在關稅不確定性很高嘛到底是多少還不確定部長我要跟你提示一件事情齁所謂的關稅你說不確定性這個不確定性不只是來自於台灣跟美國的關稅不確定喔"},{"start":13948.796,"end":13969.224,"text":"甚至包括其他國家跟美國的關稅都會衝擊到我們台灣的產業尤其會衝擊到農業我舉例就是像類似中國縱使我們跟美國最後有一個關稅的一個定案但是中國跟美國之間的關稅好如果高達了現在說145%那勢必未來中國的這個農產品不會進入到美國的嘛"},{"start":13973.846,"end":13980.252,"text":"他會衝擊到我們其他的目標市場國對,然後中國的農產品就會遭到捕獲遭到捕獲一定就是手機就爛了所以這個的一個影響並不是說我們跟美國談的怎樣那到底我們未來跟美國的品項或者是我們要擴大採購美國的一些產品"},{"start":13994.986,"end":14016.252,"text":"也不是這樣而已,還有這個後面連帶的一個效應了解,就像委員所提到的,我以毛豆為例,毛豆我們最主要的產品是銷往日本那中國是銷往美國,那中國不能銷往美國的時候,它一定往日本市場到所以我們整個的一個方案支持也去強化的回防日本"},{"start":14016.972,"end":14039.039,"text":"就是我們要進去美國也要回防日本這個部分就是我們要去綜合考量除了我們跟美國的關稅以外還有美國跟特別是跟中國的關稅還有跟我們主要的競爭對手國的關稅是怎麼樣子我們才能夠評斷後續的產業支持方案怎麼去調整好所以我們就是類似在這個行銷的部分如果這樣看起來這個180億裡面你們這個擴大74億吧"},{"start":14045.588,"end":14050.451,"text":"我這邊看到72億嘛 擴大海外行銷是50億那擴大國內行銷是22億所以這72億大概就是在於行銷這部分那既然有這72億的話我想要請教部長我們的具體作為是什麼我想有分為幾塊第一個區塊就是"},{"start":14066.441,"end":14091.771,"text":"你持續外銷的時候有所謂的外銷獎勵的部分然後第二個區塊就是其實我們要趁這個機會去建構我們的國外的通路所以我們會加強我們的產品在國外的行銷的部分包括行銷的展覽或行銷的布展的部分甚至於跟國外的通路商連結的部分的這些媒合這個部分我們都會去加強然後不只是美國市場還有其他的主要目標市場我們都會來處理"},{"start":14093.174,"end":14100.92,"text":"那我們有可能在國內也辦了類似日本東京食品展類似這樣的一個策展我們也在規劃台灣有沒有能量辦這樣的一個策展邀請國際的一些業者國際的人採購來看台灣的農村產品"},{"start":14109.126,"end":14123.576,"text":"過去都是我們到東京去因為我們想賣到東京去我們現在每一年類似的像國際的食品展也在台灣辦那類似的展覽我們也正在評估看有沒有機會我們有沒有辦法爭取到類似這樣的一些國際策展然後在台灣舉辦然後讓台灣"},{"start":14126.198,"end":14146.23,"text":"的這個農水產品可以大量的在這個策展裡面被大家看見我想非常謝謝韋的建議我想我們會真的這個部分我們會用一個專案的方式來評估看有沒有機會去爭取國家國際的大展在我們台灣舉辦我覺得這部分真的是要對這個部分很好的想法我們會來努力來找那部長這部分再加油"},{"start":14147.711,"end":14173.908,"text":"那再進入一個產業的議題就是說現在那個養羊的協會雖然台灣的養羊並不是太多不過這個也是基於糧食安全事實上這樣的一個畜牧產業還是有它存續的一個需求那麼他們現在面對的就是價格的因素大概從過去的一個拍賣價格在260塊現在都降到了179塊"},{"start":14175.809,"end":14197.257,"text":"所以價格降很多那已經遠低於他們的成本價大概是在230左右所以面對這樣的一個產業的困境那農業部我們有沒有怎樣因應的一個作為呢我想跟委員報告這個羊肉的部分其實也超乎我們的預期就是一般羊肉通常在冬天它的比較吃得比較多比較有餡可是相比我們從一月到三月"},{"start":14199.618,"end":14222.186,"text":"溫度比較低的時候它的價格還是不斷的下降表示說我們的消費者對吃羊肉這些這件事情好像越來越不熱衷所以怎麼樣讓消費者從實這樣子吃羊肉的這樣子一個產品包括產品的開發包括行銷跟宣導我已經要求我們的畜牧師不能只注重牛肉羊有沒有還要針對這些"},{"start":14223.626,"end":14243.283,"text":"小眾的這個產業也要加強去做一些宣導跟提供一個讓國人知道的一個行銷的一個作為這個養羊協會是有具體說農業部能不能在他們這個比較寒冬的時候比較辛苦的時候對他們做一些這個屠宰的費用的一個補助啦"},{"start":14243.763,"end":14264.357,"text":"那我想這部分農業部是可以爭取一下我們會來評估但是更重要就是我想我們在接近寒冬的時候甚至不一定在寒冬啦就是要多一點的國內的行銷跟宣導讓消費者來飲用啦來使用我覺得這個部分我們會先來做那到時候的屠宰如果需要我對我也有吃過我們國產的油肉啦說實在的國產的油肉喔那個鹹味嘛那個鹹的味比較沒那麼重對啦我覺得是很好吃"},{"start":14271.162,"end":14292.596,"text":"所以這個事實上農業部事實上再幫他們宣導一下料理包的部分我們會支持啦然後最後土宅的部分的協助我們到時候再看它整個的行銷的情況怎麼樣沒關係我覺得說台灣是因為我們要每一種蛋白質都很重要嘛那不同的產類有的雖然比較是小眾但是遇到困難的時候我們農業部還是要給他們寓意我想我們會關注這個產業好那如果進入今天的這個議題我最後講一下"},{"start":14298.32,"end":14319.551,"text":"事實上整個流浪狗的問題在於鄉下,尤其是海邊,事實上是很嚴重的那尤其是在養殖業越發達的地方,大概流浪狗的問題就越嚴重因為現在的流浪狗,這個是成群結隊的,而且牠們很厲害牠們沒到蜜蜀的時候,牠們也會跳到溪溫,每次去抓魚"},{"start":14323.033,"end":14348.19,"text":"但是抓魚來吃,那是真的很厲害這個流浪狗已經都變成獵犬他們直接都可以自己抓魚所以我覺得要處理流浪狗的問題這個總共很複雜的所以柏定我剛剛有聽到你回覆了很多委員的質詢不過我覺得有幾個面向我們可能可以優先處理第一個就是說這個餵食的這個就是有很多"},{"start":14350.832,"end":14371.763,"text":"愛心比較豐富的會餵食流浪狗那他去餵食流浪狗這件事就是會變成讓這些流浪狗會置身會繼續然後會在這邊變成一個族群所以我覺得餵食這件事應該要適度的予以限制不要讓他們再餵食了"},{"start":14372.703,"end":14395.544,"text":"好,那如果沒有辦法把法定定到,含罪人這個餵食流浪狗的話那至少如果他有餵食的行為的話,是不是就要把他認定推定他們是事主那如果發生了流浪狗去追人,流浪狗造成追車然後讓我們現在的四大人騎腳踏車去流浪狗,要把他拔到手上"},{"start":14396.567,"end":14418.837,"text":"那是不是這一些餵食的人就是說因為如果有證據證明這次流浪狗他有餵食的話他就要推定為市主所以他也應該要負擔市主跟市主一樣的責任動保法第三條第一項第七款的市主責任謝謝委員事實上現在目前有一些案例也用這樣的方式判定了但是"},{"start":14419.497,"end":14440.436,"text":"要避免那個流浪犬群聚其實飼主的餵養的這個事件如果能夠適度的停止的時候會有比較好的結果那現在我們在自然保護區的部分就已經強制性的禁止餵養但是在社區的部分你要用強制的話可能會遭到很大的反彈所以我們會再更努力的讓"},{"start":14443.089,"end":14461.304,"text":"餵養的特定的人士知道如果那隻被你養的這隻狗 如果貓如果發生 造成一些人權衝突的時候他必須要負擔事主責任事主責任 這樣的話他們可能就會讓他們有點擔心啦所以這個宣導就變得非常重要我想後續我們會再"},{"start":14462.505,"end":14480.32,"text":"所以部長你說得很清楚嘛現在他有餵食如果這部分被人家拍照起來證明說這一隻雖然是流浪狗但是他就固定在餵食他嘛只要有證據的話他就要負擔事主責任至少部長你在這一個點你是支持而且你會貫徹這樣做而且我們應該更加強宣導讓他們知道啦這樣的話可能會減少這些飼養的行為"},{"start":14486.886,"end":14496.451,"text":"好 那就從宣導面先加強啦那這郵輪局的問題 我覺得這集結實在時間不夠了以後有機會再跟部長來討論 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請李坤澄委員做詢問謝謝主席"},{"start":14512.196,"end":14516.132,"text":"我先讓部長喝口水來問請陳部長陳部長"},{"start":14523.962,"end":14545.316,"text":"委員好部長好這早上我在做這個提案說明的時候我有特別提到說我們行政院的版本還沒有來那請問一下行政院版本現在是卡在哪裡沒有現在就是最後一步就是要通過院會以後就可以出立法院那剛才我也跟包括謝議員委員召委這邊提到的就是我們"},{"start":14545.876,"end":14568.328,"text":"目標是下個禮拜希望能夠協調行政院能夠納到下個禮拜的院會報告院會報告以後在五月上旬看看有沒有機會送到立法院來審議那所以這樣聽起來應該是在院那邊應該沒什麼大問題因為已經審查完了最後一關就是要在院會報告那審查完基本上有什麼大問題嗎"},{"start":14570.554,"end":14598.159,"text":"有一些問題但是經過溝通大概現在目前為止版本大概都已經定案了這樣子喔對那這個本席有提案那我覺得比較重要的幾點再提出來跟部長再討論那第一個你們現在有關於這個寵物食品安全管理法是另外一個法了對不對是那這個法現在也是在預告的部分嗎我跟委員報告本來動保法裡面有一個跟寵物食品有關的條文對"},{"start":14599.139,"end":14622.578,"text":"但是因為寵物食品是大家非常關心的從原料的來源到生產製造到產品的開發跟內容物的安全性所以他很多委員就提出說要變成一個專法你也說要專法所以這個專法預計現在已經完成了在我們的部裡面的法規會審查那我是要求五月底一定要出"},{"start":14623.839,"end":14643.059,"text":"農業部進到行政院然後目標是下個會期能夠進到立法院好 那這個這還算蠻明確的那第二個就是說在那個就是加重刑責這部分的話那這個我們農業部的版本咧"},{"start":14644.246,"end":14662.546,"text":"我們是有加重我們也同意這個方向至於刑度有沒有跟他的罰款併割罰金的這個部分到底是多少萬可能大家到時候版本提出來的時候大家再來討論所以這個刑責就跟你們預告的是一樣就是有加重有加重那就是跟預告的是一樣"},{"start":14663.687,"end":14685.544,"text":"不同的委員有不同的版本到時候我們再來看看哪一個刑度刑責跟他的罰款是大家可以接受的好那我早上有提到就是說我們現在有一些民間他有一些動物的收容所那他其實養的也蠻多的啦那規模也蠻大的那可是的話你們我是提案說納管那就是你們"},{"start":14686.742,"end":14701.212,"text":"認為說如果納管這個進去的話那會變成是說問題可能會衍生其他的問題啦那可是不納管也不行啦我是說這部分的話你們要做怎麼樣做處理啊我剛才也跟其他幾位委員提到"},{"start":14702.112,"end":14731.033,"text":"我非常認同就是說所有的這些動物收農不能只靠公家單位啦一定要公家單位跟民間的都協同作業的方式那雖然說現在民間的收農所不管它的土地的土地的合法性或是它設施設備裡面的設施設備的完整度跟它的衛生安全可能都有一些差異性那如果直接納管的時候其實同仁是擔心直接納管相關的規範一出來"},{"start":14731.773,"end":14753.989,"text":"可能完全 可能本來一百家 可能剩下十家但是也不能因為 但是也不能因為這樣子不做啦所以我覺得應該要有一個輔導期啦等於說訂了這樣 我想方向是我們都要認同透過公家跟民間的一起但是相對的民間的整個納管 應該要有一個輔導期"},{"start":14755.51,"end":14774.582,"text":"那這個輔導棋讓我們去協助民間業者取得比較安全衛生的環境來做這樣的一個收容的動作然後才真正的開始實施我們是期待用這樣的方式來處理好 那就是說就是有關民間部分的話還是會做管理就對了啦那管理就是會有一個輔導棋"},{"start":14776.983,"end":14802.345,"text":"那另外一個還是大家也蠻關心就是說這個動物檢查的這個職權那可是我剛聽這個部長的這一個你的概念應該是說他不是警察但是他是類似一個動物檢察官的意思嗎還是什麼小保官的概念小保官那那個概念是什麼樣我想我們現在目前實務上就是當有人檢舉然後我們的動保檢察員去訪查的時候如果需要"},{"start":14803.525,"end":14818.182,"text":"進一步的做調查的時候就會通知警察單位來協助目前現況是這樣子現在這樣但是我們也知道他可能有點時間差有點時間差所以有很多委員說因為這種時間差會導致很多他沒辦法"},{"start":14818.642,"end":14841.118,"text":"其實進去處理對所以希望有個動保警察但是動保警察就牽涉到警察的職務對這屬於內政部的那跟內政部討論警察還有警察的本身的一些很多業務所以我們基本上也尊重那如果不是用動物警察的這一個權利的話那有什麼其他可以去說然後剛才也有委員提到就是說我們賦予"},{"start":14842.839,"end":14855.972,"text":"動物檢查單元的司法職權我不一定稱它為警察但是它具有司法的職權的部分然後如果說大家有認同這個方向的時候也許我們可以透過後面的這些"},{"start":14857.372,"end":14874.878,"text":"入法以後後面的這些訓練但是我也必須提醒現在的動保檢查人員他能夠進來的科目如果是高考的話科目跟未來如果有賦予司法警察的人士的這些要求就不一樣了"},{"start":14875.798,"end":14898.285,"text":"那專業就不一樣了那個部分可能都要重新針對人力跟相關的調整那這個部分如果說我們後續再主要討論的時候如果大家有一致的共識那農業部基本上立場也是希望朝這個方向就是有更好的更有效率的但是也考量到部會之間我們也希望說大家也彼此尊重那看找到一個平衡點我們再來推動"},{"start":14898.925,"end":14914.293,"text":"好那最後一個問題請教就是說就比較不幸的事情就是說4月21號我們有一隻台灣黑熊那不幸在花蓮地方然後他應該是被我們這一個林業署的這一個管理員好像是那"},{"start":14915.974,"end":14932.952,"text":"那當然我看那一個整個的流程來講就是說他是為了要保護自己因為那個黑熊他其實已經有那個有那個動作就是殺一隻狗啊對那有可能對人會造成這一個危害所以我們那位管理員他有開槍啦"},{"start":14934.013,"end":14961.269,"text":"那我想起來就是說在兩三年前也有一隻台灣黑熊還要寫成一本書就是這個未完的旅程一隻台灣黑熊的人間啟示錄但也是一隻台灣黑熊他要回到他的家鄉回到他的住的地方大雪山可是在回程的過程當中也是因為比較輕就是已經到了這個人類居住的地方然後也引起這個人類的這個這個要自我保護然後也射殺了這個黑熊那我在想說"},{"start":14962.029,"end":14978.711,"text":"這件事情對於這個農業部或對我們林業署來講有沒有什麼要檢討的地方我覺得每一件事情背後都有它改進的空間其實在當下如果黑熊開始入侵這些民宅的時候我們做驅離那其實驅離就應該"},{"start":14981.311,"end":15001.32,"text":"更遠的方向去驅離因為黑熊如果有習慣去吃這些雞啊這些東西它有食物來源的話它就不容易離開啦所以那個時候如果說我們能夠在第一時間如果能夠將這些黑熊再去往更深山的地方或更其他的地方去也能夠避免這樣的一個情況當時有辦法這樣做嗎"},{"start":15003.542,"end":15018.001,"text":"因為我沒有在現場我不是很了解那我們曾經也檢討過如果但是相對我們並沒有抓到他只是我們人去去驅惑他的時候他就跑掉了那跑掉以野生動物來講我們不會去追他去抓捕他啦"},{"start":15018.963,"end":15036.406,"text":"所以後續我覺得還有就是因為當下在處理的時候他是比較黑暗嘛那因為熊的那個個體還有他當下剛好在吃那隻狗所以他有那個護那個食物的那個動作有沒有不管他是驚嚇看到人也會怕我相信他看到人也會怕啦"},{"start":15037.286,"end":15061.002,"text":"彼此之間 我想我們護管員的安全是非常重要的所以我們也不會就責說他開槍殺死這個捷寶動物因為他本身也是布農族的他應該也是布農族的在布農族他們的禁忌裡面是不能夠殺黑熊的所以相關就是當他自身安全受到影響所以後面的檢討其實我覺得後續如果還有還會發生這種情形的話我們在第一時間應該讓這隻黑熊遠離更遠的地方"},{"start":15067.086,"end":15078.456,"text":"避免再度的這樣子的一個來侵害我們的鄉村的那我再問一下我現在知道說我們台灣黑熊大概有幾隻嗎幾隻六百隻左右六百隻左右那"},{"start":15084.351,"end":15099.148,"text":"這個數字這個數字是應該是有保護成功吧對啊這個數字跟五年前族群有增加啦剛才有委員說已經增加600隻是不是還是還是保育類動物當然是啊還是啊"},{"start":15100.61,"end":15116.585,"text":"就跟食虎一樣啊都是保育類的動物我覺得台灣熊是一個台灣蠻具有特色的一個動物但是因為如果它數量多然後它現在那個因為它的清洗我看它的路徑也會到低海拔的地方那我覺得接下來怎麼去教導不管是"},{"start":15117.285,"end":15133.833,"text":"住在附近的人或是說遊客我覺得可能這部分關於人跟熊之間如何和諧相處這部分我覺得可能要多一些的一些指導原則出來我也跟委員報告我們現在推動了那個生態給付的概念就是說"},{"start":15134.773,"end":15153.973,"text":"特別是在原民部落的部分他可以領一些撐帶給付然後跟我們農業部門一起合作然後一起來遇到黑熊的話能夠通報我們然後我們來協助來處理的方式那也因為這個績效做得很好所以相對的這些黑熊被誤殺被獵捕的機會變少了"},{"start":15156.075,"end":15179.918,"text":"然後受傷被通報的我們能夠及時把他救回的個案也越來越多所以他的族群是越來越上面所以後續我們會持續用生態警務的方式讓原民部落跟我們做一個共同守護的一個動作好OK好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝我們現在請何新淳委員做詢問何新淳委員不在何新淳委員不在現在請吳佩義委員做詢問"},{"start":15188.854,"end":15190.779,"text":"好謝謝主席我請農業部部長陳部長"},{"start":15198.817,"end":15205.681,"text":"部長好 去年的6月我在針對院長的總諮詢當中當時你也在現場有提出關於寵物食品管理法這個專法訂定的關切那因為其實台灣需要一部寵物食品管理專法這個從20年前就開始討論了所以這是全國的4組以及300隻的犬貓隻大家共同的期待"},{"start":15224.031,"end":15249.993,"text":"那我知道去年你們也開始啟動然後也邀請各界專家民間團體等等來進行研議剛剛我聽到部長說是預計下個會期要送到立法院嗎對我跟委員報告這個寵物食品專法本身包括委員多次的質詢我們也多次的討論然後在5月底我們一定在內部完成我們的法制作業會送到行政院去"},{"start":15250.493,"end":15276.989,"text":"是那行政院會經過法條的審議我們目標是下個會期送到立法院來好那原先我們其實是期待你們這個會期可以送進來但是我知道因為他需要跟很多各界大家要審慎的來把他完備討論要去修正沒有錯這我們也認同那除了這個這次本次的修法等於是我們首度把這一個業者的責任如果製造販賣不合格的儲物食品"},{"start":15277.449,"end":15286.275,"text":"然後危害到安全的話首度納入刑罰除了刑罰以外其實更加重要的是未來我們要如何來輔導跟執行所以我想現在法下個會期送進來那你們針對未來這個寵物食品專法上路之後例如說我們現在要求業者要自行檢驗"},{"start":15296.122,"end":15317.582,"text":"未來這個像實驗室的量能是否充足未來的稽查的工作中央地方的分工對相關的這些輔導有沒有已經開始來跟業者以及跟地方政府來進行討論溝通我想我們已經在法雖然說現在還沒送到立法院來還沒有完成公告但是相關的配套措施包括您剛才講的"},{"start":15319.713,"end":15345.444,"text":"產品寵物食品的安全非常重要所以雖然說自主檢驗他可以委託的時候有沒有所以SGS的相關的標準實驗室相關的實驗室那因為我們農業部目前我們針對包括農藥包括其他的有害物質的檢查的相關的點位非常多所以我們為了媒合就是讓寵物業者這些食品業者能夠知道相關的這些檢查站在哪邊然後怎麼樣的收費這個我們開始就在討論了"},{"start":15347.205,"end":15355.575,"text":"好所以我們希望啦這個法新法要訂定但是在中央跟地方政府之間我們要有充分的來協作那因為這個專法下會期才會進來但是我很關切的就是剛講的儲物食品的安全所以在這次"},{"start":15362.142,"end":15364.464,"text":"我們今天是這個凍飽法的修法的詢答嘛我也提出了第22條之4的修法就是明確的把我們現在具體可行的就是包括如果說在這個寵物食品當中它有這個樣態是包括了摻味或假冒"},{"start":15380.398,"end":15395.366,"text":"變質或腐敗有這樣的情況我們就可以符合來進行下架這個我看到你們今天的報告裡面也有提到過去在食物上確實有就是已經有查到就是有不明的異物摻雜在寵物飼料裡面但是卻沒有辦法下架這個是什麼樣的問題呢"},{"start":15402.209,"end":15428.305,"text":"我們過去在食物上遇到的狀況是 報告委員我們查獲的目前法律的動保法的授權沒有包括義務所以我們沒辦法依據那個法規的要求要他下架甚至是做一個行政的一個處分所以我們這次的修法特別把這個部分也一併納進來包括便紙跟含義務的部分食物上會遇到的義務比較多樣態會是像哪些類型大概罐頭裡面的塑膠片"},{"start":15429.105,"end":15443.156,"text":"然後或者是製程裡面殘留的一些就是我們很明顯的一些 比如說塑膠珠或是一些包裝的所以明確有查到的 根據現行法規無法要求下架那像變質或腐敗 我明確知道它已經發霉了"},{"start":15444.497,"end":15459.659,"text":"也沒有辦法要求它下降這是我們現在遇到的情況目前我們查獲的就是有發霉可是這個部分是發霉沒問題可是變質打開已經有異位了這部分那我們檢測的標準也都符合可是這部分就是沒辦法採訪"},{"start":15460.6,"end":15489.447,"text":"那我們就是希望說我們現在我剛剛講這兩個樣態其實是比照食安法第15條啦兩個樣態先把它先行先修及我們現在動保法第22之4條這個部分是我今天的提案版本那我希望說動保法先行先修這一條但是我們還是需要一部完整的重複食品專法就等待你們下個會期送進來那有相關的因為過去我們在地方市議會有很多地方政府執行也會遇到的一些情況也會再跟你們進行討論好"},{"start":15490.367,"end":15502.646,"text":"我想基本上專法要公佈還有一點時間但是我們現在用現行的動保法裡面去把寵物食品比較該注意的先放進去去修法的話還是能夠確保一些寵物食品的安全好 謝謝"},{"start":15504.435,"end":15516.703,"text":"好謝謝我們現在請王美惠委員做詢問王美惠委員不在王美惠委員不在我們現在請蘇清泉委員做詢問蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在我們現在請羅明財委員做詢問羅明財委員羅明財委員不在我們現在請陳培宇委員做詢問好謝謝主席那有請部長陳部長"},{"start":15535.575,"end":15555.433,"text":"委員好部長午安關於今天審動保法的部分其實我知道農業部在相關事情上真的已經做了非常非常多努力可是我想我們人力的不足 量能的不足其實可能還是農業部最需要積極協助的地方我們來看一下關於這個動保這個我想這個遊蕩犬的事情野生動物跟人之間的衝突的案件我就不再多說"},{"start":15556.193,"end":15583.723,"text":"那我知道目前全國超過14萬隻這件事情非常的困難那有很多老師也提醒我們相關的動物學家生態學家都認為目前熱區的管理強度不夠那我知道其實農業部真的有一直一直很努力那之前張阿玲委員跟洪珊漢委員現在勞動部長他們在相關的事情上部長也已經給了積極的承諾但我知道目前還有一些事情還沒有達成進度未明這個部分要不要讓部長來說明一下"},{"start":15585.051,"end":15611.95,"text":"我想有關於這邊所提到的有關於生態熱區的禁止餵養的部分我們現在已經在所謂的自然的保育區這個部分都已經在做了先會擦牌子先會擦牌子然後宣導以後就會開始禁止然後生態熱區的部分是在流浪犬的部分因為那時候因為太多的這些有愛心人士去飼養的時候會讓牠群聚所以我們在生態熱區我會先要求"},{"start":15613.631,"end":15637.091,"text":"它不能餵養然後你那個TNR的部分的回制的部分我們也不會回到生態熱區來確保整個生態熱區的一個支柱的一個控制大概目前是這樣子好 這樣看起來確實是有相關的進度那我們來看一下其實另外一個問題是人權衝突熱區目前我們當然有相關的訴求然後也有相關的法規範"},{"start":15637.952,"end":15657.281,"text":"可是我們現在看到的困境是說有沒有辦法設立宣導期期滿的時候再強行執法或者是挑選比較嚴重的前幾區所謂的人權衝突熱區優先執行因為它有跟林保署有關然後也有跟動保司有關那我們認為應該是要動保司來主責這個業務我不知道部長你們人權衝突的部分基本上還是動保司在主責"},{"start":15663.604,"end":15687.433,"text":"然後剛才也特別提到就是說特別是我們現在也請地方政府去提報一些可能的人權衝突的熱區那這個熱區列出來了以後第一個就是餵養的部分我們會先導然後剛才也聞提到就是說今天餵養如果造成這些被餵養的狗造成一些人權傷害的時候那餵養的人他負有責任"},{"start":15688.774,"end":15694.404,"text":"我們也希望說透過這樣的宣導讓餵養的頻度跟比例可以下降因為現在"},{"start":15695.782,"end":15714.09,"text":"在這個時間點用強制禁止餵養可能在現階段還不大容易執行而且也不大符合我們一般人的生活樣態所以我剛剛的建議是說我們因為我現在看了一下你們去年有框出一個所謂的優先補助管制熱區然後有包含生態熱區總共有204個村裡那既然生態熱區我們有加強規範那人權熱區我們認為應該要加入"},{"start":15720.433,"end":15742.568,"text":"可是我認為立刻執法的困境是有的如同部長您剛剛說的所以我在想那個宣導期我們可以怎麼去抓這個宣導期然後期滿再來執行或者是我們找出我們認為最嚴重的五個或十個先做如果是這個方向會不會讓你們在人力上或是相關的執法上不大有困難但真的有實體推進其實民眾也會有感"},{"start":15743.208,"end":15759.711,"text":"我們也非常希望說如果有意願先走的縣市我們會跟縣市討論我們可以當作幾個縣市或幾個縣市裡面的村裡先執行那有相關好的成果再去推動的話會比較快一點這個後續我想我們會跟縣市政府來挑幾個來重要的來做"},{"start":15760.011,"end":15783.334,"text":"好那我們就下一張那聽起來部長其實是有明白而且知道可以怎麼跟縣市政府溝通那我們就希望兩個月內有相關的規劃跟進度報告可以嗎好謝謝部長好我只剩一分鐘最後我想要談一談上個禮拜四月二十一在花蓮濁西所發生的黑熊射殺事件那當時林保署四月二十三號的新聞稿說黑熊雖然有列明所謂的瀕臨絕種野生動物可是數量很多說"},{"start":15784.315,"end":15807.106,"text":"已經沒有瀕臨絕種之餘啦 說近年來數量已經變多了可是其實很多生態學者老師就說林保署你要沒有確切的族群數量你不能用所謂的募集率還有活動範圍就做出這樣的宣稱很多生態學者專家告訴大家應該要更謹慎來看這件事情但是我必須還是要肯定林保署在這幾年推動所謂"},{"start":15807.606,"end":15825.531,"text":"黑熊通報生態給付這件事情的成果可是我還是要說在這一次所謂非熱區非自然保護的山區野生動物跟人類之間的接觸越來越頻繁要如何進行環境管理減少衝突和平相處這些事情我不知道農業部這邊後續會不會有更多的做法跟討論我們辦公室可以持續來追蹤"},{"start":15829.272,"end":15847.491,"text":"可以我想先說明一下就是當初講到就是有一些說已經沒有瀕臨絕種的事其實他是回應很多人是擔心他絕種是不是說想要把他瀕臨絕種降級啦是不是降級的概念所以不會有降級的問題沒有降級的問題是擔心有人擔心說"},{"start":15848.832,"end":15869.689,"text":"是不是還會瀕臨啊我們是用鼓勵的就是朝正面的角度去思考因為租金的數量有增加好聽起來這樣我們就比較放心那至於後續我們還有哪些事情可以去處理這個我剛剛提出來這些問題那因為今天時間有限我們辦公室之後會再跟農業部積極討論但也非常開心聽到部長明確說出不會有所謂降級這個問題好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":15874.434,"end":15876.316,"text":"我们现在请苏乔惠委员做询答"},{"start":15891.894,"end":15896.277,"text":"请相关单位于一周内以书面答复并复制本会本日议程询答完毕则其继续审查现在休息谢谢"},{"start":15922.261,"end":15922.739,"text":"by bwd6"},{"start":15953.183,"end":15953.412,"text":"by bwd6"}]}},{"id":"16630","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16630","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685001fad9b8cd413afca3bf586b49d470bf7d7f547ae197440acf332a42d5750125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場(廠)墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-30T08:31:04+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T13:18:00+08:00","duration":17216,"影片長度":"04:46:56","委員發言時間":"08:31:04 - 13:18:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":117.95346875000001,"end":119.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":173.80971875,"end":174.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1823.0203437500002,"end":1825.9734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1825.9734687500002,"end":1827.6440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1828.9265937500002,"end":1829.8378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1830.0572187500002,"end":1832.1834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1832.4534687500002,"end":1850.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1850.7628437500002,"end":1864.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1864.6340937500001,"end":1889.0184687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1890.18284375,"end":1890.4359687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1891.1278437500002,"end":1894.1990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1895.5153437500003,"end":1898.0297187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1898.5190937500001,"end":1902.6365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1902.99096875,"end":1910.9559687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1911.6140937500002,"end":1914.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1914.9890937500002,"end":1916.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1916.4572187500003,"end":1918.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1921.4522187500002,"end":1923.5784687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1925.8059687500001,"end":1928.3878437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1928.6072187500001,"end":1928.8265937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1930.0415937500002,"end":1931.6278437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1933.5684687500002,"end":1933.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1934.36159375,"end":1934.8340937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1935.3740937500002,"end":1938.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1940.2003437500002,"end":1940.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1942.1240937500002,"end":1944.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1945.7690937500001,"end":1946.2415937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1946.7984687500002,"end":1948.3340937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1949.3634687500003,"end":1949.7853437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1950.51096875,"end":1952.7215937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1953.2953437500003,"end":1953.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1954.2572187500002,"end":1957.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1957.3790937500003,"end":1957.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1958.3409687500002,"end":1960.8722187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1960.9903437500002,"end":1961.4459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1961.9859687500002,"end":1964.0953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1964.5003437500002,"end":1964.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1965.3947187500003,"end":1967.3184687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1968.0778437500003,"end":1971.8409687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1973.4272187500003,"end":1976.2790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1977.93284375,"end":1982.2528437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1982.9615937500002,"end":1985.3240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1985.8640937500002,"end":1986.3197187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1986.7753437500003,"end":1988.5809687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1990.03221875,"end":1992.4959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1993.2553437500003,"end":1993.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1994.3690937500003,"end":1996.7484687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1998.6722187500002,"end":2000.6972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2001.6422187500002,"end":2002.2328437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2002.7728437500002,"end":2005.2534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2005.8440937500002,"end":2006.2322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2007.0253437500003,"end":2009.3540937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2010.0628437500002,"end":2010.3665937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2010.9234687500002,"end":2013.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2015.4797187500003,"end":2018.8884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2019.2259687500002,"end":2020.9134687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2021.5209687500003,"end":2022.2128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2022.4828437500003,"end":2022.8372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2023.3434687500003,"end":2026.9884687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2027.5284687500002,"end":2028.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2028.9628437500003,"end":2031.1228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2033.2997187500002,"end":2036.2190937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2038.83471875,"end":2039.5940937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2039.7628437500002,"end":2040.0665937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2041.2478437500001,"end":2044.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2048.33534375,"end":2049.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2053.26284375,"end":2083.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2084.26221875,"end":2119.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2119.86846875,"end":2160.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2151.4753437500003,"end":2152.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2160.97596875,"end":2182.9472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2183.2340937500003,"end":2184.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2185.7147187500004,"end":2194.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2194.84409375,"end":2218.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2219.3465937500005,"end":2219.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2220.5447187500004,"end":2225.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2225.6747187500005,"end":2226.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2227.4297187500006,"end":2230.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2231.3447187500005,"end":2231.6315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2231.96909375,"end":2232.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2233.11659375,"end":2242.1953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2242.44846875,"end":2243.7478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2244.1697187500004,"end":2258.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2259.4922187500006,"end":2270.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2270.59596875,"end":2274.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2274.4265937500004,"end":2281.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2282.0372187500006,"end":2287.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2287.4372187500003,"end":2288.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2288.43284375,"end":2302.3378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2303.1140937500004,"end":2307.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2307.72096875,"end":2328.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2328.57846875,"end":2340.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2341.6228437500004,"end":2343.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2343.93471875,"end":2355.6628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2356.06784375,"end":2366.5303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2366.8172187500004,"end":2373.6347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2373.85409375,"end":2379.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2379.64221875,"end":2379.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2381.68409375,"end":2382.4940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2382.8484687500004,"end":2384.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2386.93221875,"end":2406.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2406.33846875,"end":2406.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2407.09784375,"end":2410.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2414.9784687500005,"end":2416.5309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2416.88534375,"end":2417.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2417.52659375,"end":2418.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2424.47909375,"end":2424.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2424.51284375,"end":2433.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2424.58034375,"end":2424.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2424.59721875,"end":2425.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2427.48284375,"end":2427.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2427.83721875,"end":2427.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2433.43971875,"end":2433.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2433.8447187500005,"end":2438.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2438.68784375,"end":2439.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2439.0928437500006,"end":2439.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2439.12659375,"end":2449.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2449.53846875,"end":2451.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2451.2597187500005,"end":2452.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2453.28471875,"end":2454.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2454.7528437500005,"end":2456.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2455.74846875,"end":2456.4909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2457.9928437500002,"end":2461.8065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2461.4522187500006,"end":2463.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2463.0553437500002,"end":2472.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2472.3028437500006,"end":2478.1247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2477.93909375,"end":2478.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2478.59721875,"end":2480.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2479.55909375,"end":2480.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2481.60096875,"end":2483.3222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2483.15346875,"end":2484.1659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2484.1659687500005,"end":2484.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2484.31784375,"end":2500.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2495.77596875,"end":2495.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2495.82659375,"end":2496.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2496.90659375,"end":2497.3115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2500.39971875,"end":2506.6940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2506.4578437500004,"end":2507.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2507.28471875,"end":2512.4822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2512.6172187500006,"end":2537.5584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2531.4834687500006,"end":2531.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2531.50034375,"end":2531.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2536.61346875,"end":2536.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2537.11971875,"end":2572.7090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2541.25409375,"end":2541.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2572.7090937500006,"end":2577.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2574.71721875,"end":2598.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2580.9609687500006,"end":2581.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2581.29846875,"end":2581.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2599.5065937500003,"end":2600.1140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2600.14784375,"end":2607.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2607.5390937500006,"end":2630.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2631.2653437500003,"end":2644.5459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2644.86659375,"end":2645.1534687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2645.5584687500004,"end":2650.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2650.72221875,"end":2655.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2656.0378437500003,"end":2669.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2669.6053437500004,"end":2670.8034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2670.6347187500005,"end":2674.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2675.3428437500006,"end":2677.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2676.6084687500006,"end":2678.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2677.7897187500002,"end":2688.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2687.6278437500005,"end":2690.1084687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2690.42909375,"end":2695.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2695.55909375,"end":2701.0772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2696.4197187500004,"end":2698.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2701.2965937500003,"end":2704.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2702.2753437500005,"end":2703.1022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2704.28346875,"end":2705.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2704.6378437500007,"end":2714.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2705.02596875,"end":2705.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2705.0428437500004,"end":2705.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2709.7003437500007,"end":2710.2909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2713.1934687500006,"end":2716.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2715.7078437500004,"end":2721.9347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2721.8503437500003,"end":2731.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2724.9890937500004,"end":2725.4278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2730.8278437500003,"end":2734.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2732.32971875,"end":2733.4772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2734.1015937500006,"end":2748.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2748.9347187500007,"end":2765.3034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2765.89409375,"end":2771.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2771.31096875,"end":2772.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2772.99846875,"end":2778.0778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2778.0778437500003,"end":2781.3515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2781.62159375,"end":2786.6503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2787.0553437500002,"end":2788.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2788.05096875,"end":2789.8903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2790.2784687500007,"end":2791.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2791.1053437500004,"end":2813.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2813.8865937500004,"end":2815.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2813.98784375,"end":2819.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2817.8015937500004,"end":2822.3747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2820.8053437500002,"end":2822.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2822.7628437500007,"end":2826.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2822.83034375,"end":2824.6022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2827.4034687500007,"end":2831.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2832.29721875,"end":2833.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2833.3434687500003,"end":2838.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2834.87909375,"end":2835.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2837.73096875,"end":2844.2615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2844.4303437500002,"end":2845.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2844.76784375,"end":2846.4215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2846.7928437500004,"end":2849.6784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2850.08346875,"end":2853.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2853.27284375,"end":2890.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2890.1953437500006,"end":2893.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2893.2665937500005,"end":2896.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2895.20721875,"end":2895.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2896.4559687500005,"end":2898.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2897.51909375,"end":2902.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2902.6490937500002,"end":2916.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2913.9384687500005,"end":2914.4615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2916.38534375,"end":2917.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2918.54534375,"end":2935.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2935.36971875,"end":2946.1865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2946.7097187500003,"end":2961.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2954.3878437500007,"end":2954.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2959.3153437500005,"end":2959.8553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2961.3065937500005,"end":2965.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2961.4247187500005,"end":2961.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2962.35284375,"end":2962.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2965.18784375,"end":2966.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2966.4872187500005,"end":2984.7459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2977.86096875,"end":2978.2322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2985.1847187500007,"end":3053.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3053.73096875,"end":3053.7647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3053.79846875,"end":3053.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3053.83221875,"end":3053.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3053.84909375,"end":3054.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3053.9334687500004,"end":3058.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3055.9753437500003,"end":3056.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3058.97909375,"end":3077.6765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3077.2040937500005,"end":3080.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3079.09409375,"end":3079.1953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3079.65096875,"end":3079.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3079.70159375,"end":3080.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3081.33846875,"end":3087.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3094.70346875,"end":3096.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3097.30221875,"end":3098.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3103.5965937500005,"end":3103.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3103.61346875,"end":3103.8497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3104.23784375,"end":3105.0984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3105.7059687500005,"end":3139.6922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3139.86096875,"end":3140.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3140.6540937500004,"end":3143.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3144.0290937500004,"end":3150.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3151.8590937500003,"end":3154.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3155.70659375,"end":3179.5509687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3179.68596875,"end":3189.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3189.4734687500004,"end":3194.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3194.7890937500006,"end":3203.1759687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":3205.79159375,"end":3231.8634687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3231.6778437500006,"end":3242.0222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3242.8322187500007,"end":3255.9103437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3256.16346875,"end":3287.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3287.4665937500004,"end":3287.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3288.22596875,"end":3288.8165937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3289.0865937500002,"end":3314.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3314.5340937500005,"end":3356.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3318.9215937500003,"end":3319.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3322.0772187500006,"end":3322.4147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3356.9747187500006,"end":3363.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3364.2478437500004,"end":3370.3565937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3371.28471875,"end":3424.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3425.6053437500004,"end":3431.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3427.7147187500004,"end":3427.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3427.9678437500006,"end":3428.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3431.9334687500004,"end":3467.1853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3468.0290937500004,"end":3481.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3481.57971875,"end":3496.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3497.3747187500003,"end":3534.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3505.54221875,"end":3505.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3505.96409375,"end":3506.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3520.7634687500004,"end":3521.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3533.9597187500003,"end":3534.1959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3534.24659375,"end":3553.6190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3553.9734687500004,"end":3560.2340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3560.80784375,"end":3561.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3561.66846875,"end":3563.4909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3563.8622187500005,"end":3585.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3585.64784375,"end":3609.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3609.5597187500007,"end":3615.0440937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3615.06096875,"end":3615.0778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3615.36471875,"end":3620.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3620.54534375,"end":3644.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3644.23784375,"end":3652.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3653.08034375,"end":3674.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3674.49471875,"end":3683.7928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3684.5690937500003,"end":3689.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3690.4247187500005,"end":3698.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3700.09409375,"end":3723.4659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3724.4109687500004,"end":3726.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3726.85784375,"end":3740.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3741.3028437500006,"end":3752.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3752.2547187500004,"end":3777.2128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3777.95534375,"end":3783.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3783.7772187500004,"end":3790.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3790.6622187500006,"end":3804.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3805.32659375,"end":3816.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3816.7509687500005,"end":3850.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3851.0915937500004,"end":3855.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3856.7615937500004,"end":3862.8028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3869.5865937500002,"end":3874.8515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3875.5603437500004,"end":3876.4884687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3881.1797187500006,"end":3881.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3881.19659375,"end":3881.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3881.6690937500007,"end":3917.3259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3918.20346875,"end":3926.1347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3926.8434687500003,"end":3931.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3931.9734687500004,"end":3933.4415937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3933.1209687500004,"end":3933.4922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3933.4922187500006,"end":3946.3340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3937.72784375,"end":3938.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3946.95846875,"end":3953.0840937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3953.89409375,"end":3956.3747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3956.1553437500006,"end":3957.6065937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3957.87659375,"end":3987.7453437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3987.7115937500002,"end":3997.1953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3997.1953437500006,"end":4016.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3997.21221875,"end":3997.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3997.34721875,"end":3997.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3998.7647187500006,"end":3999.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4013.6990937500004,"end":4017.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4017.0065937500003,"end":4034.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4019.75721875,"end":4019.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4035.48471875,"end":4037.2228437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4036.0078437500006,"end":4057.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4058.2997187500005,"end":4063.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4063.4297187500006,"end":4069.2178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4067.2265937500006,"end":4067.2772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4069.1503437500005,"end":4079.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4069.2853437500007,"end":4069.3190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4079.37659375,"end":4115.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4095.7959687500006,"end":4096.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4115.3709687499995,"end":4118.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4119.370343750001,"end":4121.327843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4121.850968750001,"end":4122.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4124.2303437499995,"end":4125.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4126.305968750001,"end":4126.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4128.4490937499995,"end":4133.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4134.321593750001,"end":4138.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4137.02159375,"end":4147.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4147.04534375,"end":4147.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4147.38284375,"end":4147.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4147.46721875,"end":4165.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4147.484093749999,"end":4147.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4166.18159375,"end":4167.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4167.7509687500005,"end":4177.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4167.81846875,"end":4167.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4167.90284375,"end":4168.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4178.12909375,"end":4186.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4186.36409375,"end":4191.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4192.0340937500005,"end":4202.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4204.589093750001,"end":4207.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4207.356593750001,"end":4208.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4208.13284375,"end":4209.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4209.53346875,"end":4209.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4209.58409375,"end":4219.354718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4218.05534375,"end":4221.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4219.624718749999,"end":4228.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4223.72534375,"end":4224.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4227.218468749999,"end":4229.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4230.34034375,"end":4239.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4239.52034375,"end":4305.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4305.974093750001,"end":4328.654093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4328.654093749999,"end":4336.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4329.464093750001,"end":4329.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4336.28159375,"end":4352.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4352.31284375,"end":4359.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4359.7040937500005,"end":4365.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4365.57659375,"end":4365.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4365.795968750001,"end":4370.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4370.35221875,"end":4372.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4372.545968750001,"end":4394.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4394.905343750001,"end":4409.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4410.29534375,"end":4411.577843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4411.89846875,"end":4416.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4416.842843750001,"end":4440.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4440.2147187499995,"end":4485.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4440.602843750001,"end":4443.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4443.01596875,"end":4443.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4446.171593749999,"end":4446.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4446.9647187499995,"end":4447.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4447.0322187500005,"end":4450.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4450.00221875,"end":4450.019093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4486.350968750001,"end":4490.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4490.856593750001,"end":4490.890343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4490.890343749999,"end":4491.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4491.042218750001,"end":4494.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4493.53971875,"end":4494.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4494.974093750001,"end":4503.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4504.42409375,"end":4511.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4504.575968749999,"end":4505.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4510.060343749999,"end":4518.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4518.312218749999,"end":4525.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4525.75409375,"end":4534.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4531.491593750001,"end":4539.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4534.545968750001,"end":4534.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4539.99659375,"end":4541.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4541.83596875,"end":4553.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4553.6990937499995,"end":4555.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4556.73659375,"end":4559.757218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4562.27159375,"end":4563.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4562.45721875,"end":4565.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4565.055968750001,"end":4568.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4569.00471875,"end":4569.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4569.038468750001,"end":4569.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4569.510968750001,"end":4584.833468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4584.61409375,"end":4588.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4585.491593750001,"end":4586.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4588.967843750001,"end":4598.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4598.36721875,"end":4600.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4600.56096875,"end":4600.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4601.151593750001,"end":4605.218468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4602.29909375,"end":4602.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4605.30284375,"end":4611.124718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4607.44596875,"end":4609.909718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4611.39471875,"end":4614.314093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4615.022843750001,"end":4630.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4625.02971875,"end":4625.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4625.0634687500005,"end":4647.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4636.200968749999,"end":4636.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4636.23471875,"end":4639.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4640.9090937500005,"end":4641.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4643.49096875,"end":4645.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4647.54096875,"end":4714.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4656.045968750001,"end":4658.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4714.60221875,"end":4716.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4716.593468749999,"end":4719.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4721.841593749999,"end":4730.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4730.852843750001,"end":4744.437218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4744.589093750001,"end":4746.360968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4746.462218750001,"end":4749.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4750.495343750001,"end":4750.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4751.372843749999,"end":4752.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4752.452843749999,"end":4757.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4758.6122187500005,"end":4769.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4763.472218750001,"end":4763.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4763.522843750001,"end":4763.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4763.59034375,"end":4821.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4781.17409375,"end":4781.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4821.30284375,"end":4821.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4821.75846875,"end":4822.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4822.75409375,"end":4826.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4826.97284375,"end":4841.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4841.68784375,"end":4857.735968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4855.592843750001,"end":4856.841593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4857.5165937500005,"end":4886.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4888.09409375,"end":4898.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4897.71284375,"end":4902.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4902.842843750001,"end":4910.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4909.18784375,"end":4909.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4910.807843750001,"end":4910.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4910.858468750001,"end":4914.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4916.20784375,"end":4922.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4929.94409375,"end":4933.437218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4935.9178437499995,"end":4938.735968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4942.51596875,"end":4942.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4943.12346875,"end":4951.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4951.98284375,"end":4954.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4955.560343749999,"end":4965.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4965.85409375,"end":4969.110968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4970.78159375,"end":4975.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4975.55721875,"end":4984.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4984.349093750001,"end":4986.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4987.8759687500005,"end":4988.280968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4990.440968750001,"end":4990.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4990.89659375,"end":4999.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4997.73096875,"end":4999.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4999.09784375,"end":4999.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4999.13159375,"end":5001.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5002.1522187499995,"end":5009.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5010.67409375,"end":5013.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5014.4540937500005,"end":5015.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5015.9559687500005,"end":5016.833468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5017.727843750001,"end":5018.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5021.659718750001,"end":5022.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5023.532843749999,"end":5024.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5024.30909375,"end":5031.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5031.5653437500005,"end":5032.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5031.81846875,"end":5039.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5039.54721875,"end":5041.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5041.538468750001,"end":5060.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5060.74221875,"end":5062.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5062.024718750001,"end":5064.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5065.14659375,"end":5068.015343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5069.095343749999,"end":5073.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5073.90471875,"end":5076.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5075.187218749999,"end":5081.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5082.39284375,"end":5083.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5084.13096875,"end":5087.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5088.501593749999,"end":5090.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5092.214093750001,"end":5096.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5096.97284375,"end":5097.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5098.019093750001,"end":5106.085343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5106.10221875,"end":5106.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5106.507218750001,"end":5107.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5108.700968749999,"end":5111.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5111.55284375,"end":5115.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5115.38346875,"end":5116.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5116.61534375,"end":5117.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5117.50971875,"end":5118.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5119.80471875,"end":5122.251593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5122.487843750001,"end":5123.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5124.44534375,"end":5128.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5128.7147187499995,"end":5129.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5130.01409375,"end":5137.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5137.776593750001,"end":5138.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5138.95784375,"end":5172.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5172.218468749999,"end":5182.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5182.90034375,"end":5190.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5190.966593749999,"end":5193.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5194.64534375,"end":5202.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5202.72846875,"end":5213.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5214.05159375,"end":5222.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5223.315968750001,"end":5226.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5227.09596875,"end":5227.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5227.720343749999,"end":5231.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5231.939093749999,"end":5247.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5247.312218749999,"end":5249.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5250.366593750001,"end":5259.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5260.69409375,"end":5260.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5261.419718749999,"end":5263.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5263.343468749999,"end":5264.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5265.216593749999,"end":5266.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5266.499093750001,"end":5266.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5267.27534375,"end":5270.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5270.245343750001,"end":5271.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5271.831593750001,"end":5276.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5277.19784375,"end":5301.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5301.61596875,"end":5301.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5301.63284375,"end":5312.095343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5313.411593750001,"end":5316.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5317.579718749999,"end":5318.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5319.216593749999,"end":5319.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5320.1278437500005,"end":5321.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5322.86159375,"end":5324.329718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5324.92034375,"end":5325.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5325.71346875,"end":5328.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5328.86909375,"end":5330.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5331.231593750001,"end":5340.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5341.390343749999,"end":5343.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5343.98909375,"end":5344.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5345.997218750001,"end":5346.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5347.110968749999,"end":5349.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5350.14846875,"end":5353.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5353.675343750001,"end":5354.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5355.19409375,"end":5355.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5356.628468750001,"end":5358.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5359.1259687500005,"end":5360.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5362.70346875,"end":5363.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5363.3447187500005,"end":5364.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5364.34034375,"end":5364.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5365.23471875,"end":5367.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5368.66034375,"end":5369.048468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5369.58846875,"end":5370.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5371.24221875,"end":5372.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5373.48659375,"end":5373.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5373.975968750001,"end":5374.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5374.769093750001,"end":5376.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5377.300343750001,"end":5379.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5379.544718749999,"end":5380.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5380.962218750001,"end":5381.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5381.21534375,"end":5382.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5384.30346875,"end":5385.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5385.14721875,"end":5385.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5386.00784375,"end":5387.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5387.526593750001,"end":5391.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5391.9647187499995,"end":5392.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5393.21346875,"end":5397.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5399.08596875,"end":5399.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5400.638468749999,"end":5401.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5402.1572187500005,"end":5404.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5404.97534375,"end":5408.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5408.02971875,"end":5420.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5421.225968750001,"end":5426.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5427.267218749999,"end":5429.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5432.31284375,"end":5433.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5433.67971875,"end":5433.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5435.55284375,"end":5435.654093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5436.1434687500005,"end":5436.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5437.05471875,"end":5451.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5437.628468750001,"end":5437.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5451.58409375,"end":5465.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5465.92784375,"end":5467.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5468.526593750001,"end":5470.062218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5470.18034375,"end":5471.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5472.6103437500005,"end":5473.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5473.70721875,"end":5474.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5474.63534375,"end":5476.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5477.08221875,"end":5478.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5478.685343749999,"end":5480.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5480.0184687500005,"end":5481.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5482.22909375,"end":5483.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5482.43159375,"end":5482.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5483.02221875,"end":5486.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5487.02159375,"end":5489.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5488.50659375,"end":5489.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5489.40096875,"end":5489.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5489.63721875,"end":5492.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5493.72096875,"end":5494.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5496.85971875,"end":5498.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5498.78346875,"end":5512.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5513.36346875,"end":5514.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5515.18596875,"end":5526.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5527.487843750001,"end":5531.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5531.807843750001,"end":5533.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5533.2928437499995,"end":5533.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5534.77784375,"end":5537.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5538.67596875,"end":5540.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5540.44784375,"end":5542.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5542.590968750001,"end":5543.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5544.37971875,"end":5545.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5546.13471875,"end":5548.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5549.02034375,"end":5550.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5550.70784375,"end":5552.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5552.86784375,"end":5553.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5554.302218750001,"end":5559.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5559.314093749999,"end":5562.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5562.85784375,"end":5565.220343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5565.557843750001,"end":5568.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5568.66284375,"end":5569.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5570.012843750001,"end":5571.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5572.864718750001,"end":5574.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5574.80534375,"end":5576.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5576.50971875,"end":5578.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5579.800343750001,"end":5586.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5586.651593750001,"end":5587.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5587.529093749999,"end":5589.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5589.35159375,"end":5590.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5591.190968750001,"end":5595.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5596.1522187499995,"end":5598.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5599.020968750001,"end":5600.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5601.2147187499995,"end":5603.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5604.606593750001,"end":5605.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5606.49659375,"end":5608.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5608.92659375,"end":5618.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5619.321593750001,"end":5621.802218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5622.3759687500005,"end":5625.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5624.77221875,"end":5625.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5625.05909375,"end":5625.126593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5625.19409375,"end":5625.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5625.362843750001,"end":5625.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5625.37971875,"end":5625.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5625.43034375,"end":5626.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5626.03784375,"end":5626.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5626.9490937499995,"end":5633.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5643.35159375,"end":5645.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5646.135968750001,"end":5646.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5652.734093749999,"end":5654.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5654.624093750001,"end":5662.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5662.18409375,"end":5662.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5663.567843750001,"end":5664.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5665.727843750001,"end":5665.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5665.7615937499995,"end":5665.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5666.099093750001,"end":5667.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5667.837218750001,"end":5668.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5668.37721875,"end":5668.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5669.187218749999,"end":5671.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5672.25846875,"end":5687.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5675.667218750001,"end":5677.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5677.911593750001,"end":5678.046593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5687.96909375,"end":5694.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5694.887843750001,"end":5695.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5696.1365937499995,"end":5706.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5706.71721875,"end":5711.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5711.54346875,"end":5713.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5714.3447187500005,"end":5725.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5725.38096875,"end":5745.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5732.60346875,"end":5734.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5734.03784375,"end":5734.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5745.968468749999,"end":5763.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5763.687218749999,"end":5768.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5769.01971875,"end":5770.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5770.55534375,"end":5771.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5772.310343749999,"end":5788.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5789.03346875,"end":5789.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5790.58596875,"end":5796.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5796.6103437500005,"end":5796.829718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5796.99846875,"end":5806.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5806.819718750001,"end":5808.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5809.23284375,"end":5810.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5810.81909375,"end":5817.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5818.46346875,"end":5823.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5824.217843750001,"end":5840.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5840.26596875,"end":5843.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5844.130343750001,"end":5862.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5862.8447187500005,"end":5862.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5862.96284375,"end":5863.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5863.99221875,"end":5867.890343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5868.76784375,"end":5873.796593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5874.454718750001,"end":5908.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5908.592843750001,"end":5923.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5924.286593750001,"end":5962.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5932.116593750001,"end":5932.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5932.302218750001,"end":5932.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5953.345343750001,"end":5953.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5953.42971875,"end":5953.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5953.56471875,"end":5954.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5954.72909375,"end":5955.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5955.792218750001,"end":6001.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5966.288468750001,"end":5966.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5971.452218750001,"end":5971.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5979.40034375,"end":5979.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6001.540343750001,"end":6011.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6012.34034375,"end":6019.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6019.88346875,"end":6035.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6036.640343749999,"end":6038.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6038.749718749999,"end":6046.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6045.82034375,"end":6048.267218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6048.35159375,"end":6058.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6058.84784375,"end":6059.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6059.91096875,"end":6062.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6063.842843750001,"end":6066.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6067.47096875,"end":6068.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6068.517218750001,"end":6072.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6070.42409375,"end":6078.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6079.73909375,"end":6095.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6093.036593750001,"end":6107.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6107.9540937500005,"end":6116.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6116.77971875,"end":6118.720343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6119.378468750001,"end":6135.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6136.017218750001,"end":6138.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6138.042218750001,"end":6142.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6142.46346875,"end":6144.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6144.555968750001,"end":6154.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6155.49096875,"end":6161.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6161.59971875,"end":6168.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6164.87346875,"end":6167.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6168.06284375,"end":6202.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6168.14721875,"end":6168.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6168.2822187500005,"end":6168.450968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6194.82659375,"end":6194.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6196.59846875,"end":6197.189093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6197.96534375,"end":6199.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6203.21346875,"end":6204.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6205.18784375,"end":6208.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6209.17034375,"end":6210.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6212.714093750001,"end":6212.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6212.73096875,"end":6212.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6212.747843749999,"end":6213.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6213.15284375,"end":6213.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6213.169718749999,"end":6214.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6213.186593750001,"end":6215.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6215.009093750001,"end":6215.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6215.97096875,"end":6217.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6217.590968750001,"end":6217.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6218.4178437499995,"end":6218.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6218.434718750001,"end":6220.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6220.03784375,"end":6220.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6220.965968750001,"end":6221.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6221.03346875,"end":6221.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6221.97846875,"end":6222.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6222.029093749999,"end":6222.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6222.974093750001,"end":6223.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6223.024718750001,"end":6223.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6224.12159375,"end":6224.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6224.138468749999,"end":6239.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6235.90034375,"end":6246.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6245.468468749999,"end":6247.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6247.206593750001,"end":6248.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6250.32846875,"end":6252.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6252.96096875,"end":6253.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6253.821593750001,"end":6254.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6254.952218750001,"end":6261.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6256.200968749999,"end":6256.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6257.567843750001,"end":6257.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6260.72346875,"end":6261.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6261.972218750001,"end":6263.609093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6263.372843749999,"end":6272.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6270.34221875,"end":6278.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6279.825968749999,"end":6281.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6282.1209687499995,"end":6282.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6283.015343749999,"end":6284.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6285.327218750001,"end":6285.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6286.6434687500005,"end":6287.841593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6288.280343750001,"end":6304.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6305.07096875,"end":6306.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6306.72471875,"end":6312.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6312.90096875,"end":6319.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6319.026593750001,"end":6328.5272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6319.98846875,"end":6320.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6321.54096875,"end":6322.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6322.75596875,"end":6322.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6326.9072187500005,"end":6336.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6336.036593750001,"end":6346.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6342.0272187499995,"end":6369.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6355.1728437500005,"end":6359.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6361.0790937500005,"end":6361.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6361.97346875,"end":6362.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6370.157843750001,"end":6382.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6382.307843750001,"end":6390.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6391.60596875,"end":6394.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6395.1834687499995,"end":6401.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6401.8153437500005,"end":6420.462218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6410.30346875,"end":6412.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6413.661593750001,"end":6413.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6413.67846875,"end":6423.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6423.465968750001,"end":6423.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6423.5165937500005,"end":6424.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6423.702218750001,"end":6426.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6424.79909375,"end":6424.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6426.67221875,"end":6426.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6427.499093750001,"end":6427.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6428.3934687500005,"end":6429.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6432.274718750001,"end":6442.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6450.82034375,"end":6453.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6453.09846875,"end":6453.790343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6459.49409375,"end":6459.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6459.510968750001,"end":6460.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6460.540343750001,"end":6483.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6484.114718750001,"end":6512.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6487.388468749999,"end":6487.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6513.595343750001,"end":6516.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6516.885968750001,"end":6518.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6518.45534375,"end":6521.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6522.80909375,"end":6561.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6561.53721875,"end":6561.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6562.060343749999,"end":6576.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6576.420968750001,"end":6579.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6578.142218750001,"end":6630.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6581.7197187500005,"end":6582.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6582.02346875,"end":6582.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6630.640343749999,"end":6652.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6652.392218750001,"end":6665.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6654.737843750001,"end":6654.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6665.436593750001,"end":6669.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6669.840968750001,"end":6697.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6698.005343750001,"end":6722.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6723.4022187499995,"end":6724.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6725.20784375,"end":6748.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6748.47846875,"end":6749.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6749.32221875,"end":6752.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6752.3934687500005,"end":6785.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6786.19409375,"end":6787.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6790.17659375,"end":6791.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6790.210343750001,"end":6793.720343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6793.78784375,"end":6800.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6800.470343750001,"end":6801.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6802.022843750001,"end":6806.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6806.96721875,"end":6815.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6815.06721875,"end":6821.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6821.243468750001,"end":6821.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6821.378468750001,"end":6835.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6835.70534375,"end":6870.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6870.687218749999,"end":6882.499718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6883.309718750001,"end":6885.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6886.3134687500005,"end":6888.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6887.106593750001,"end":6887.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6887.12346875,"end":6887.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6888.99659375,"end":6928.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6912.95909375,"end":6915.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6917.1103437500005,"end":6918.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6922.4090937500005,"end":6922.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6928.14659375,"end":6932.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6932.83784375,"end":6969.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6935.31846875,"end":6935.757218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6969.220343750001,"end":6974.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6974.282843750001,"end":6974.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6974.31659375,"end":6977.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6974.60346875,"end":6975.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6975.497843749999,"end":6977.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6977.3709687499995,"end":6988.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6985.23471875,"end":6985.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6988.08659375,"end":6995.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6995.8153437500005,"end":7023.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7023.692843750001,"end":7031.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7031.96159375,"end":7039.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7039.55534375,"end":7039.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7039.909718750001,"end":7039.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7039.94346875,"end":7039.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7040.21346875,"end":7051.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7052.329718750001,"end":7055.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7055.519093750001,"end":7062.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7062.505343750001,"end":7099.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7100.67659375,"end":7117.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7115.91471875,"end":7125.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7125.0947187500005,"end":7125.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7125.48284375,"end":7125.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7128.689093750001,"end":7129.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7131.89534375,"end":7132.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7133.07659375,"end":7138.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7134.983468750001,"end":7135.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7144.61909375,"end":7144.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7147.04909375,"end":7150.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7155.52034375,"end":7156.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7156.17846875,"end":7193.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7193.03346875,"end":7193.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7193.944718750001,"end":7193.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7193.97846875,"end":7194.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7194.14721875,"end":7194.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7194.33284375,"end":7199.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7198.7372187500005,"end":7199.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7199.715968750001,"end":7200.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7200.694718750001,"end":7201.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7201.8759687500005,"end":7201.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7201.909718750001,"end":7201.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7201.960343750001,"end":7201.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7201.97721875,"end":7202.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7203.34409375,"end":7231.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7231.812218750001,"end":7267.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7268.852843750001,"end":7282.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7283.247218750001,"end":7307.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7308.593468750001,"end":7311.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7312.47471875,"end":7320.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7321.18221875,"end":7323.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7324.118468750001,"end":7326.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7326.042218750001,"end":7330.767218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7331.22284375,"end":7331.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7332.57284375,"end":7343.845343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7344.132218750001,"end":7346.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7346.62971875,"end":7349.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7349.41409375,"end":7349.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7350.7303437499995,"end":7351.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7352.40096875,"end":7355.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7355.573468750001,"end":7362.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7363.70721875,"end":7372.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7373.005343750001,"end":7375.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7375.97534375,"end":7376.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7376.07659375,"end":7378.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7378.6415937500005,"end":7379.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7381.05471875,"end":7382.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7382.809718750001,"end":7392.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7393.3397187499995,"end":7397.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7397.5584687499995,"end":7406.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7407.126593750001,"end":7416.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7412.712218750001,"end":7412.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7412.96534375,"end":7413.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7413.640343750001,"end":7414.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7416.407843750001,"end":7423.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7422.11159375,"end":7422.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7422.24659375,"end":7422.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7422.48284375,"end":7422.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7423.259093750001,"end":7425.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7424.49096875,"end":7426.110968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7426.110968750001,"end":7439.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7440.032843750001,"end":7447.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7447.862843750001,"end":7457.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7458.831593750001,"end":7460.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7461.126593750001,"end":7462.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7462.442843750001,"end":7470.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7471.33596875,"end":7475.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7476.01034375,"end":7491.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7493.12159375,"end":7496.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7497.15471875,"end":7498.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7499.061593750001,"end":7503.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7504.630343750001,"end":7509.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7509.743468750001,"end":7511.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7513.2197187500005,"end":7527.833468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7528.069718750001,"end":7531.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7531.3603437500005,"end":7532.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7531.74846875,"end":7535.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7532.03534375,"end":7532.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7532.22096875,"end":7532.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7532.237843750001,"end":7532.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7535.0897187499995,"end":7535.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7535.44409375,"end":7539.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7539.02159375,"end":7539.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7539.038468750001,"end":7539.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7539.34221875,"end":7548.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7547.374718750001,"end":7547.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7548.8934687500005,"end":7548.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7548.927218750001,"end":7549.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7549.028468750001,"end":7552.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7552.4540937500005,"end":7553.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7553.9559687500005,"end":7557.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7554.34409375,"end":7554.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7558.444718750001,"end":7566.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7567.776593750001,"end":7567.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7567.79346875,"end":7569.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7568.02971875,"end":7568.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7568.704718750001,"end":7569.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7569.85221875,"end":7582.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7580.196593750001,"end":7580.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7581.732218749999,"end":7586.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7586.77784375,"end":7588.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7586.87909375,"end":7590.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7590.4228437500005,"end":7594.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7593.29159375,"end":7596.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7594.94534375,"end":7605.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7596.05909375,"end":7596.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7604.86784375,"end":7622.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7623.00846875,"end":7624.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7625.235968750001,"end":7639.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7639.14096875,"end":7642.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7639.74846875,"end":7639.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7643.68034375,"end":7646.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7647.62909375,"end":7649.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7650.76784375,"end":7654.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7654.69971875,"end":7656.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7656.927218750001,"end":7671.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7669.954718750001,"end":7673.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7673.0428437499995,"end":7681.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7681.04159375,"end":7686.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7684.062218750001,"end":7685.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7686.44159375,"end":7750.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7686.8465937500005,"end":7689.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7747.309718750001,"end":7747.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7747.444718750001,"end":7747.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7750.9715937500005,"end":7771.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7756.42221875,"end":7756.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7772.470343750001,"end":7773.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7774.765343750001,"end":7776.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7777.397843750001,"end":7778.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7779.72659375,"end":7781.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7781.8865937499995,"end":7783.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7783.08471875,"end":7783.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7783.118468750001,"end":7788.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7784.282843750001,"end":7786.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7788.67034375,"end":7788.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7788.687218750001,"end":7793.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7792.484093750001,"end":7809.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7810.540343750001,"end":7813.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7815.38346875,"end":7822.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7822.04909375,"end":7837.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7838.13096875,"end":7850.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7852.592843750001,"end":7854.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7855.09034375,"end":7857.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7858.36409375,"end":7866.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7868.202218750001,"end":7874.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7874.3447187500005,"end":7887.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7887.94596875,"end":7900.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7901.54721875,"end":7902.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7904.669093750001,"end":7908.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7907.26784375,"end":7907.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7909.394093750001,"end":7915.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7914.81096875,"end":7929.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7930.538468750001,"end":7939.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7939.9715937500005,"end":7951.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7951.733468750001,"end":7964.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7966.026593750001,"end":7967.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7967.849093750001,"end":7973.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7972.9959687499995,"end":7973.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7973.02971875,"end":7974.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7974.312218750001,"end":7976.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7977.0965937500005,"end":7985.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7985.483468750001,"end":7986.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7985.7197187500005,"end":7989.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7990.47846875,"end":7991.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7991.997218750001,"end":7995.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7995.96284375,"end":7997.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7997.717843750001,"end":8000.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8000.45159375,"end":8000.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8000.4853437500005,"end":8000.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8000.53596875,"end":8000.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8002.493468750001,"end":8006.526593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8007.454718750001,"end":8009.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8009.378468750001,"end":8016.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8011.50471875,"end":8012.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8016.7528437500005,"end":8026.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8027.2997187500005,"end":8036.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8036.68221875,"end":8039.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8040.124718750001,"end":8041.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8042.50409375,"end":8046.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8046.739718750001,"end":8062.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8063.36159375,"end":8064.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8064.76221875,"end":8098.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8100.16596875,"end":8103.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8104.31721875,"end":8113.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8113.767218750001,"end":8115.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8116.23096875,"end":8116.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8117.64846875,"end":8123.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8124.0947187500005,"end":8131.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8132.0428437499995,"end":8134.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8134.827218750001,"end":8138.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8138.97846875,"end":8158.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8159.9540937500005,"end":8171.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8172.407843750001,"end":8196.134093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8196.52221875,"end":8211.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8212.215968750003,"end":8217.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8217.54846875,"end":8218.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8218.24034375,"end":8219.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8220.113468750002,"end":8244.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8246.30346875,"end":8289.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8290.296593750001,"end":8291.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8291.66346875,"end":8334.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8335.015343750001,"end":8353.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8354.28659375,"end":8361.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8362.386593750001,"end":8364.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8365.42409375,"end":8384.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8385.488468750002,"end":8394.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8395.039718750002,"end":8397.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8397.520343750002,"end":8400.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8401.48596875,"end":8406.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8408.35409375,"end":8409.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8409.50159375,"end":8412.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8412.910343750002,"end":8415.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8416.30221875,"end":8417.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8418.040343750003,"end":8421.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8422.242218750001,"end":8435.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8430.409718750001,"end":8430.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8435.219093750002,"end":8436.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8436.78846875,"end":8440.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8441.867843750002,"end":8443.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8444.04471875,"end":8451.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8452.17846875,"end":8455.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8455.95846875,"end":8464.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8465.003468750001,"end":8494.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8496.74534375,"end":8502.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8503.343468750001,"end":8507.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8508.54096875,"end":8510.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8510.144093750001,"end":8512.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8512.253468750001,"end":8513.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8514.12659375,"end":8515.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8515.594718750002,"end":8518.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8519.61096875,"end":8528.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8529.246593750002,"end":8532.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8532.419093750003,"end":8533.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8533.769093750001,"end":8542.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8542.594718750002,"end":8544.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8545.71659375,"end":8556.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8559.26721875,"end":8560.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8563.33409375,"end":8564.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8564.44784375,"end":8574.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8576.14221875,"end":8585.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8581.12034375,"end":8581.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8583.95534375,"end":8583.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8585.457218750002,"end":8588.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8589.43971875,"end":8596.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8597.15159375,"end":8598.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8599.176593750002,"end":8601.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8602.16346875,"end":8609.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8609.84159375,"end":8614.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8615.22471875,"end":8617.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8617.992218750001,"end":8625.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8626.68284375,"end":8629.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8629.63596875,"end":8631.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8631.509093750003,"end":8633.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8634.715343750002,"end":8639.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8639.406593750002,"end":8652.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8653.176593750002,"end":8672.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8673.24096875,"end":8678.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8679.113468750002,"end":8679.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8680.93596875,"end":8681.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8682.20159375,"end":8689.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8689.69409375,"end":8709.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8710.78784375,"end":8716.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8716.99784375,"end":8717.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8718.195968750002,"end":8718.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8719.69784375,"end":8733.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8734.176593750002,"end":8769.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8770.49159375,"end":8773.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8773.394093750001,"end":8782.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8783.02971875,"end":8790.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8790.606593750003,"end":8797.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8798.21721875,"end":8802.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8802.97596875,"end":8803.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8804.359718750002,"end":8805.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8805.524093750002,"end":8806.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8807.059718750003,"end":8811.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8811.39659375,"end":8815.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8812.61159375,"end":8813.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8813.99534375,"end":8814.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8815.176593750002,"end":8815.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8815.699718750002,"end":8817.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8817.50534375,"end":8850.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8851.187843750002,"end":8851.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8851.22159375,"end":8853.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8853.516593750002,"end":8858.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8859.64221875,"end":8861.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8861.633468750002,"end":8864.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8863.945343750001,"end":8895.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8895.957218750002,"end":8897.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8898.167843750001,"end":8899.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8900.31096875,"end":8906.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8901.57659375,"end":8902.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8902.89284375,"end":8902.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8906.90909375,"end":8920.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8920.695968750002,"end":8926.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8926.821593750003,"end":8929.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8930.770343750002,"end":8933.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8933.672843750002,"end":8934.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8935.02284375,"end":8936.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8935.12409375,"end":8936.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8936.507843750001,"end":8944.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8943.730343750001,"end":8946.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8946.278468750003,"end":8946.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8946.329093750002,"end":8948.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8946.683468750001,"end":8946.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8946.700343750003,"end":8947.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8951.644718750002,"end":8953.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8962.54596875,"end":8968.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8968.047218750002,"end":8968.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8968.11471875,"end":8968.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8968.739093750002,"end":8968.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8968.80659375,"end":8968.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8968.85721875,"end":8968.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8968.90784375,"end":8968.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8968.97534375,"end":8968.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8973.97034375,"end":9001.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9002.438468750002,"end":9004.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9004.952843750001,"end":9006.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9007.58534375,"end":9023.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9024.66284375,"end":9062.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9062.46284375,"end":9084.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9084.34971875,"end":9106.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9107.02971875,"end":9109.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9110.40471875,"end":9119.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9120.040343750003,"end":9128.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9128.781593750002,"end":9159.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9159.88221875,"end":9204.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9204.668468750002,"end":9205.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9205.12409375,"end":9205.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9205.17471875,"end":9205.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9205.191593750002,"end":9205.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9205.765343750001,"end":9214.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9214.72596875,"end":9216.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9216.71721875,"end":9225.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9224.867843750002,"end":9243.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9244.004093750002,"end":9270.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9269.24909375,"end":9269.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9270.39659375,"end":9283.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9283.25534375,"end":9354.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9299.219093750002,"end":9299.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9354.535343750002,"end":9355.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9356.070968750002,"end":9356.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9357.35346875,"end":9358.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9358.19721875,"end":9399.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":9400.06409375,"end":9402.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9403.06784375,"end":9409.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9409.39596875,"end":9436.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9436.61534375,"end":9448.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9449.102843750003,"end":9501.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9501.73596875,"end":9514.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9514.965968750003,"end":9516.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9517.159718750001,"end":9518.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9518.83034375,"end":9553.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9554.402843750002,"end":9574.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9574.88909375,"end":9601.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9601.973468750002,"end":9628.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9627.707843750002,"end":9627.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9629.14221875,"end":9639.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9639.60471875,"end":9639.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9639.80721875,"end":9643.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9641.34284375,"end":9641.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9645.34221875,"end":9645.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9645.86534375,"end":9649.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9652.14284375,"end":9653.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9653.40846875,"end":9655.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9655.180343750002,"end":9655.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9656.344718750002,"end":9656.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9656.969093750002,"end":9657.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10315.97159375,"end":10316.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10317.895343750002,"end":10317.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10317.92909375,"end":10322.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10326.13034375,"end":10328.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10330.83846875,"end":10331.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10333.74096875,"end":10340.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10341.16596875,"end":10346.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10346.66721875,"end":10347.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10347.07221875,"end":10347.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10348.169093750003,"end":10350.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10350.39659375,"end":10351.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10353.07971875,"end":10353.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10354.29471875,"end":10358.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10358.648468750001,"end":10358.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10358.665343750003,"end":10358.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10359.74534375,"end":10359.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10359.79596875,"end":10361.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10362.242843750002,"end":10363.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10363.47471875,"end":10364.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10363.64346875,"end":10363.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10364.504093750002,"end":10364.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10364.605343750001,"end":10364.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10366.512218750002,"end":10366.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10367.42346875,"end":10390.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10391.774093750002,"end":10393.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10397.34284375,"end":10407.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10407.602843750003,"end":10416.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10416.884093750003,"end":10419.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10421.49096875,"end":10422.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10423.38096875,"end":10425.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10425.01784375,"end":10433.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10433.30346875,"end":10434.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10435.29471875,"end":10438.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10438.079093750002,"end":10438.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10438.112843750001,"end":10438.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10439.14221875,"end":10445.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10445.554718750001,"end":10451.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10451.91659375,"end":10458.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10460.590343750002,"end":10462.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10462.93596875,"end":10464.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10465.58534375,"end":10473.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10473.668468750002,"end":10480.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10481.515343750001,"end":10482.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10483.118468750003,"end":10484.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10486.72971875,"end":10488.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10488.87284375,"end":10490.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10492.754093750002,"end":10494.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10495.26846875,"end":10495.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10496.601593750001,"end":10498.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10500.145343750002,"end":10501.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10501.96784375,"end":10502.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10503.452843750001,"end":10505.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10505.477843750003,"end":10505.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10505.562218750001,"end":10506.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10507.08096875,"end":10521.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10521.492218750001,"end":10522.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10521.593468750001,"end":10550.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10530.90846875,"end":10531.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10550.449718750002,"end":10564.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10564.92846875,"end":10565.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10566.582218750002,"end":10568.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10569.180968750003,"end":10570.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10570.800968750002,"end":10574.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10574.699093750001,"end":10575.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10576.015343750001,"end":10577.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10577.88846875,"end":10580.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10580.63909375,"end":10582.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10583.11971875,"end":10583.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10583.895968750003,"end":10588.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10589.110343750002,"end":10591.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10592.35034375,"end":10593.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10595.20221875,"end":10596.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10598.40846875,"end":10603.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10604.179718750001,"end":10606.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10607.132843750001,"end":10608.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10608.989093750002,"end":10611.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10612.17846875,"end":10613.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10614.08534375,"end":10623.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10623.130343750003,"end":10623.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10623.332843750002,"end":10624.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10625.492843750002,"end":10639.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10639.48221875,"end":10642.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10643.97096875,"end":10644.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10646.13096875,"end":10646.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10647.683468750001,"end":10648.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10649.843468750001,"end":10651.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10653.387218750002,"end":10667.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10666.769093750001,"end":10667.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10667.59596875,"end":10667.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10667.96721875,"end":10684.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10685.73659375,"end":10696.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10697.481593750003,"end":10713.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10713.95159375,"end":10715.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10715.031593750002,"end":10715.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10715.80784375,"end":10717.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10718.33909375,"end":10721.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10721.730968750002,"end":10725.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10722.034718750001,"end":10722.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10725.004718750002,"end":10725.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10725.07221875,"end":10725.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10725.831593750001,"end":10727.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10727.114093750002,"end":10727.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10727.333468750003,"end":10728.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10730.640968750002,"end":10731.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10731.92346875,"end":10732.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10732.78409375,"end":10733.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10733.99909375,"end":10734.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10735.180343750002,"end":10735.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10735.78784375,"end":10738.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10738.234718750002,"end":10740.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10741.96409375,"end":10742.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10743.094718750002,"end":10745.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10746.13221875,"end":10752.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10752.96659375,"end":10754.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10754.92409375,"end":10755.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10756.03784375,"end":10758.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10758.552218750003,"end":10763.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10763.496593750002,"end":10772.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10773.13221875,"end":10804.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10804.300343750001,"end":10855.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10856.629718750002,"end":10858.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10858.33409375,"end":10860.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10860.780968750001,"end":10861.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10862.114093750002,"end":10864.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10864.999718750001,"end":10868.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10868.762843750003,"end":10869.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10870.450343750003,"end":10872.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10872.99846875,"end":10875.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10875.64784375,"end":10876.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10877.11596875,"end":10878.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10878.989093750002,"end":10881.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10881.95909375,"end":10894.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10884.422843750002,"end":10884.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10894.868468750003,"end":10899.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10899.964718750001,"end":10904.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10903.74471875,"end":10909.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10907.86221875,"end":10913.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10913.937218750001,"end":10935.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10935.11534375,"end":10940.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10940.734718750002,"end":10948.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10949.121593750002,"end":10949.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10950.269093750001,"end":10953.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10953.57659375,"end":10957.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10958.31846875,"end":10960.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10960.984718750002,"end":10962.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10962.790343750003,"end":10964.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10966.18221875,"end":10967.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10967.430968750003,"end":10968.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10968.780968750001,"end":10973.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10973.438468750002,"end":10975.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10976.05409375,"end":10976.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10979.277218750001,"end":10981.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10981.89284375,"end":10986.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10987.12409375,"end":10988.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10989.317843750003,"end":10990.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10993.08096875,"end":10994.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10994.44784375,"end":10996.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10996.675343750001,"end":10998.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10999.13909375,"end":11000.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11002.51409375,"end":11012.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11010.73221875,"end":11011.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11012.622218750003,"end":11017.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11017.02659375,"end":11020.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11018.039093750001,"end":11018.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11020.23284375,"end":11020.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11020.300343750001,"end":11023.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11023.320968750002,"end":11026.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11026.71284375,"end":11030.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11031.336593750002,"end":11032.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11032.58534375,"end":11033.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11033.699093750001,"end":11053.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11034.00284375,"end":11034.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11054.860343750002,"end":11060.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11061.610343750002,"end":11066.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11064.934718750003,"end":11065.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11066.655968750001,"end":11109.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11109.45096875,"end":11114.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11114.766593750002,"end":11122.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11122.512218750002,"end":11123.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11123.946593750003,"end":11123.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11123.997218750003,"end":11126.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11126.528468750003,"end":11130.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11131.000343750002,"end":11132.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11133.29534375,"end":11133.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11134.746593750002,"end":11135.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11136.012218750002,"end":11137.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11137.649093750002,"end":11147.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11147.301593750002,"end":11148.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11149.765343750001,"end":11151.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11152.97159375,"end":11153.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11155.300343750001,"end":11156.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11157.409718750001,"end":11158.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11159.23221875,"end":11160.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11161.847843750002,"end":11163.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11164.024718750003,"end":11165.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11165.99909375,"end":11167.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11168.597843750002,"end":11169.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11170.437218750001,"end":11171.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11172.63096875,"end":11173.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11174.06534375,"end":11175.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11177.727218750002,"end":11178.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11178.824093750001,"end":11201.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11201.284718750001,"end":11202.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11203.07346875,"end":11204.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11205.199718750002,"end":11205.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11205.70596875,"end":11207.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11208.102218750002,"end":11209.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11209.75596875,"end":11210.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11211.156593750002,"end":11212.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11213.012843750003,"end":11214.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11216.792843750001,"end":11218.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11218.699718750002,"end":11222.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11222.597843750002,"end":11230.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11230.95096875,"end":11231.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11231.609093750001,"end":11231.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11231.625968750002,"end":11231.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11231.69346875,"end":11241.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11231.895968750003,"end":11233.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11252.58471875,"end":11254.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11255.04846875,"end":11256.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11260.161593750003,"end":11260.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11260.245968750001,"end":11260.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11260.566593750002,"end":11260.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11261.460968750001,"end":11263.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11263.28346875,"end":11268.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11268.91971875,"end":11288.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11289.92909375,"end":11307.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11307.15846875,"end":11334.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11337.465968750003,"end":11339.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11340.21659375,"end":11340.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11340.773468750001,"end":11341.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11341.27971875,"end":11341.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11341.33034375,"end":11341.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11341.81971875,"end":11341.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11341.97159375,"end":11342.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11342.039093750001,"end":11344.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11345.582843750002,"end":11347.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11347.523468750001,"end":11353.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11352.062843750002,"end":11357.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11357.294093750003,"end":11358.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11358.509093750003,"end":11384.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11386.724093750003,"end":11390.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11391.33096875,"end":11411.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11405.92784375,"end":11406.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11406.062843750002,"end":11406.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11411.26034375,"end":11460.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11414.53409375,"end":11414.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11461.007843750001,"end":11473.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11473.562843750002,"end":11479.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11480.02596875,"end":11481.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11481.98346875,"end":11484.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11484.93659375,"end":11488.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11488.952843750001,"end":11526.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11526.53346875,"end":11527.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11528.204093750002,"end":11538.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11538.649718750003,"end":11540.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11541.36659375,"end":11542.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11544.910343750002,"end":11544.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11544.977843750003,"end":11545.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11546.665343750003,"end":11546.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11546.68221875,"end":11565.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11564.097218750001,"end":11564.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11565.02534375,"end":11565.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11565.700343750003,"end":11565.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11565.71721875,"end":11570.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11571.269093750001,"end":11571.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11572.484093750001,"end":11573.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11574.087218750003,"end":11576.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11576.83784375,"end":11577.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11577.495968750001,"end":11580.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11581.42784375,"end":11583.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11583.70596875,"end":11594.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11593.78034375,"end":11599.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11600.00721875,"end":11604.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11605.22159375,"end":11607.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11608.512218750002,"end":11610.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11611.684718750003,"end":11616.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11616.156593750002,"end":11616.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11616.17346875,"end":11617.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11617.30409375,"end":11623.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11622.012218750002,"end":11625.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11624.05409375,"end":11625.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11625.82596875,"end":11641.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11641.941593750002,"end":11644.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11645.45159375,"end":11646.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11647.13909375,"end":11647.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11648.57346875,"end":11649.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11650.024718750003,"end":11651.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11652.10034375,"end":11653.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11653.973468750002,"end":11662.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11662.84971875,"end":11663.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11663.676593750002,"end":11664.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11665.17846875,"end":11666.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11666.59596875,"end":11666.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11667.524093750002,"end":11673.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11673.362843750001,"end":11676.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11676.906593750002,"end":11677.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11677.547843750002,"end":11686.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11686.879718750002,"end":11708.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11709.036593750003,"end":11714.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11714.47034375,"end":11716.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11719.313468750002,"end":11723.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11723.02596875,"end":11723.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11724.66284375,"end":11732.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11730.315968750001,"end":11731.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11731.497218750003,"end":11733.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11733.77534375,"end":11746.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11746.02659375,"end":11760.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11761.180343750002,"end":11764.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11764.79159375,"end":11772.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11772.942218750002,"end":11781.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11781.81846875,"end":11786.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11787.555968750003,"end":11789.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11789.93534375,"end":11790.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11791.26846875,"end":11792.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11793.074093750001,"end":11795.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11796.28034375,"end":11797.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11798.136593750001,"end":11801.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11801.039093750001,"end":11803.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11806.65846875,"end":11806.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11806.70909375,"end":11807.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11807.907218750002,"end":11816.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11816.969093750002,"end":11821.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11821.84596875,"end":11824.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11824.96784375,"end":11825.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11825.676593750002,"end":11832.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11830.70534375,"end":11831.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11832.03846875,"end":11853.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11853.469718750002,"end":11860.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11861.384093750003,"end":11864.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11864.894093750001,"end":11874.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11874.37784375,"end":11881.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11882.089718750001,"end":11883.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11883.034718750001,"end":11890.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11890.594718750002,"end":11890.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11890.864718750003,"end":11890.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11890.88159375,"end":11890.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11890.915343750003,"end":11890.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11893.109093750001,"end":11893.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11893.71659375,"end":11893.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11896.26471875,"end":11898.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11908.769093750001,"end":11911.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11911.18221875,"end":11912.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11917.577843750001,"end":11917.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11917.594718750002,"end":11918.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11919.09659375,"end":11920.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11920.41284375,"end":11935.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11936.59596875,"end":11939.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11939.633468750002,"end":11985.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11985.48284375,"end":11985.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11985.972218750001,"end":11986.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11986.292843750001,"end":12008.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12008.90534375,"end":12025.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12026.421593750001,"end":12039.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12032.175968750002,"end":12033.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12034.875968750002,"end":12034.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12034.89284375,"end":12036.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12038.234093750001,"end":12039.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12039.246593750002,"end":12041.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12042.11534375,"end":12046.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12046.300343750001,"end":12059.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12054.687218750001,"end":12056.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12059.51346875,"end":12064.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12060.62721875,"end":12062.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12064.930343750002,"end":12066.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12066.33096875,"end":12066.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12066.75284375,"end":12069.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12069.65534375,"end":12071.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12072.102218750002,"end":12077.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12074.684093750002,"end":12076.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12076.50659375,"end":12077.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12077.468468750001,"end":12078.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12077.62034375,"end":12080.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12080.23596875,"end":12081.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12082.29471875,"end":12085.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12083.57721875,"end":12084.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12085.450343750003,"end":12086.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12086.648468750001,"end":12089.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12089.88846875,"end":12091.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12091.22159375,"end":12108.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12103.270343750002,"end":12104.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12104.789093750001,"end":12104.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12105.97034375,"end":12106.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12107.99534375,"end":12114.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12108.92346875,"end":12109.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12114.69471875,"end":12116.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12116.027843750002,"end":12117.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12116.719718750002,"end":12119.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12118.52534375,"end":12130.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12129.96659375,"end":12132.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12132.66659375,"end":12196.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12138.40409375,"end":12140.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12141.812843750002,"end":12142.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12142.386593750001,"end":12142.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12143.90534375,"end":12144.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12144.023468750001,"end":12144.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12196.808468750001,"end":12199.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12199.10346875,"end":12202.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12201.617843750002,"end":12202.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12202.191593750002,"end":12202.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12202.512218750002,"end":12204.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12202.562843750002,"end":12202.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12204.97596875,"end":12205.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12205.212218750003,"end":12208.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12206.59596875,"end":12207.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12207.355343750001,"end":12207.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12208.38471875,"end":12224.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12221.90159375,"end":12222.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12222.914093750001,"end":12236.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12227.824718750002,"end":12228.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12236.633468750002,"end":12245.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12245.442218750002,"end":12315.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12316.33409375,"end":12319.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12320.35034375,"end":12321.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12321.71721875,"end":12326.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12326.965343750002,"end":12327.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12327.45471875,"end":12332.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12331.082843750002,"end":12335.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12332.871593750002,"end":12333.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12334.10346875,"end":12342.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12342.844718750002,"end":12362.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12362.47034375,"end":12365.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12365.457218750002,"end":12376.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12377.421593750001,"end":12380.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12380.94846875,"end":12389.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12385.47096875,"end":12386.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12389.824718750002,"end":12390.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12389.925968750002,"end":12400.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12397.92471875,"end":12412.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12412.808468750001,"end":12421.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12424.13159375,"end":12425.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12427.101593750001,"end":12433.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12461.56034375,"end":12462.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12463.09596875,"end":12464.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12464.98596875,"end":12465.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12471.972218750001,"end":12473.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12474.48659375,"end":12477.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12478.249718750001,"end":12478.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12479.70096875,"end":12480.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12482.012843750003,"end":12483.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12484.999718750001,"end":12485.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12486.29909375,"end":12487.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12488.492843750002,"end":12489.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12490.399718750003,"end":12492.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12493.11659375,"end":12496.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12497.53784375,"end":12499.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12499.782218750002,"end":12500.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12500.91284375,"end":12507.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12508.118468750003,"end":12510.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12511.122218750003,"end":12513.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12515.08784375,"end":12517.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12518.277218750001,"end":12520.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12520.94346875,"end":12523.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12523.457843750002,"end":12529.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12529.347218750001,"end":12538.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12539.18534375,"end":12539.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12540.78846875,"end":12542.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12543.387218750002,"end":12545.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12545.597843750002,"end":12548.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12549.22596875,"end":12558.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12558.65909375,"end":12562.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12563.687843750002,"end":12567.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12568.379093750002,"end":12569.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12570.57284375,"end":12577.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12577.62659375,"end":12579.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12580.52909375,"end":12588.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12589.35471875,"end":12598.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12599.00721875,"end":12600.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12600.67784375,"end":12601.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12602.449718750002,"end":12602.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12603.42846875,"end":12604.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12605.01471875,"end":12606.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12606.870968750001,"end":12607.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12608.81159375,"end":12613.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12613.958468750003,"end":12615.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12615.730343750001,"end":12616.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12616.641593750002,"end":12617.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12618.852218750002,"end":12619.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12619.797218750002,"end":12621.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12621.180968750003,"end":12622.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12623.020343750002,"end":12626.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12627.00284375,"end":12627.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12628.21784375,"end":12634.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12635.49096875,"end":12638.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12638.359718750002,"end":12643.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12643.72596875,"end":12646.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12646.898468750001,"end":12656.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12656.90534375,"end":12661.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12661.680968750003,"end":12665.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12665.79846875,"end":12674.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12674.792843750001,"end":12675.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12676.446593750003,"end":12677.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12678.30284375,"end":12681.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12682.04909375,"end":12685.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12686.04846875,"end":12690.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12690.53721875,"end":12691.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12692.562218750001,"end":12695.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12695.86971875,"end":12697.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12698.805968750003,"end":12700.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12700.206593750001,"end":12703.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12703.71659375,"end":12705.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12707.074718750002,"end":12710.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12710.500343750002,"end":12714.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12714.870968750001,"end":12727.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12729.704093750002,"end":12729.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12730.46346875,"end":12744.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12744.48659375,"end":12766.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12767.048468750003,"end":12768.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12768.22971875,"end":12768.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12769.05659375,"end":12769.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12769.07346875,"end":12773.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12774.422843750002,"end":12775.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12776.565968750001,"end":12778.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12779.29971875,"end":12780.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12781.476593750001,"end":12782.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12783.24846875,"end":12784.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12785.290343750003,"end":12786.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12787.500968750002,"end":12789.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12790.403468750003,"end":12792.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12793.05284375,"end":12797.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12797.558468750001,"end":12798.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12799.937843750002,"end":12800.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12801.16971875,"end":12805.439093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12805.692218750002,"end":12808.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12809.708468750003,"end":12813.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12814.332218750002,"end":12817.251593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12817.504718750002,"end":12818.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12818.601593750001,"end":12820.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12821.099093750003,"end":12822.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12823.512218750002,"end":12825.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12826.54971875,"end":12831.173468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12832.000343750002,"end":12833.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12834.41346875,"end":12836.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12837.636593750001,"end":12839.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12840.99471875,"end":12842.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12842.715968750003,"end":12843.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12844.032218750002,"end":12847.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12848.38596875,"end":12850.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12850.461593750002,"end":12852.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12853.094093750002,"end":12853.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12854.12346875,"end":12854.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12855.16971875,"end":12857.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12858.88221875,"end":12859.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12861.24471875,"end":12861.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12862.442843750003,"end":12863.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12864.535343750002,"end":12865.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12866.45909375,"end":12867.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12867.977843750003,"end":12876.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12876.769718750002,"end":12877.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12879.402218750001,"end":12881.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12882.321593750003,"end":12886.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12887.97471875,"end":12898.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12898.656593750002,"end":12899.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12900.192218750002,"end":12902.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12902.824718750002,"end":12903.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12904.782218750002,"end":12907.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12907.532843750003,"end":12918.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12918.231593750003,"end":12921.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12920.914718750002,"end":12921.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12921.99471875,"end":12922.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12922.399718750003,"end":12922.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12922.41659375,"end":12922.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12922.433468750001,"end":12922.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12926.449718750002,"end":12927.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12927.68159375,"end":12930.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12944.691593750002,"end":12947.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12952.58909375,"end":12953.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12954.10784375,"end":12954.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12957.027218750001,"end":12958.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12959.727218750002,"end":12962.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12963.000968750002,"end":12964.907843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12967.101593750001,"end":12968.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12968.77221875,"end":12969.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12970.628468750001,"end":12972.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12972.332843750002,"end":12972.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12974.93159375,"end":12980.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12979.63971875,"end":12982.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12982.00221875,"end":12988.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12987.030968750001,"end":12995.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12988.954718750003,"end":12990.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12996.379718750002,"end":12996.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12997.30784375,"end":12999.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12999.231593750003,"end":13004.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13000.379093750002,"end":13002.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13002.72471875,"end":13002.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13004.614718750003,"end":13006.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13007.01096875,"end":13008.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13008.968468750001,"end":13010.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13011.17909375,"end":13012.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13012.343468750001,"end":13013.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13013.777843750002,"end":13017.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13018.485968750003,"end":13019.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13019.751593750003,"end":13021.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13022.23221875,"end":13024.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13024.814093750003,"end":13025.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13026.14721875,"end":13030.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13028.15534375,"end":13031.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13031.95221875,"end":13037.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13032.120968750001,"end":13036.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13037.149718750003,"end":13040.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13038.06096875,"end":13038.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13039.84971875,"end":13045.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13044.220343750003,"end":13046.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13047.105968750002,"end":13049.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13048.540343750003,"end":13049.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13050.734093750001,"end":13052.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13052.30346875,"end":13056.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13056.640343750001,"end":13060.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13060.69034375,"end":13064.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13064.36909375,"end":13067.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13067.929718750001,"end":13076.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13076.586593750002,"end":13082.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13082.695343750001,"end":13088.517218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13089.360968750003,"end":13103.704718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13104.51471875,"end":13108.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13108.530968750001,"end":13111.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13111.73721875,"end":13115.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13116.15846875,"end":13120.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13120.984718750002,"end":13127.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13128.224093750003,"end":13150.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13150.465343750002,"end":13154.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13154.54909375,"end":13155.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13155.831593750001,"end":13156.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13156.540343750003,"end":13156.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13156.55721875,"end":13156.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13156.87784375,"end":13156.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13157.08034375,"end":13179.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13179.574718750002,"end":13183.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13183.844093750002,"end":13191.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13193.09159375,"end":13202.423468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13202.676593750002,"end":13207.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13207.199093750001,"end":13208.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13209.19034375,"end":13209.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13210.23659375,"end":13211.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13211.45159375,"end":13216.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13216.68284375,"end":13225.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13225.49159375,"end":13245.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13245.927218750003,"end":13250.939093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13252.00221875,"end":13261.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13262.12721875,"end":13287.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13287.96284375,"end":13299.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13299.30284375,"end":13299.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13300.821593750003,"end":13301.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13302.390968750002,"end":13303.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13304.04471875,"end":13318.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13318.641593750002,"end":13328.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13322.92784375,"end":13326.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13326.94409375,"end":13340.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13341.220343750003,"end":13351.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13341.422843750002,"end":13342.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13352.020343750002,"end":13372.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13373.14784375,"end":13373.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13373.72159375,"end":13388.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13386.32721875,"end":13399.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13400.265968750002,"end":13417.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13400.367218750001,"end":13402.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13418.01846875,"end":13427.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13419.520343750002,"end":13420.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13425.797843750002,"end":13428.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13428.51471875,"end":13429.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13429.898468750001,"end":13441.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13441.778468750003,"end":13445.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13446.48659375,"end":13452.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13453.270343750002,"end":13456.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13456.965968750003,"end":13494.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13468.94721875,"end":13469.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13469.976593750001,"end":13470.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13470.22971875,"end":13470.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13471.579718750003,"end":13472.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13495.37346875,"end":13496.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13497.145343750002,"end":13503.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13503.726593750001,"end":13504.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13504.688468750002,"end":13504.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13504.70534375,"end":13504.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13504.87409375,"end":13508.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13504.907843750003,"end":13506.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13507.101593750001,"end":13532.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13531.148468750001,"end":13542.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13541.20596875,"end":13541.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13542.555968750003,"end":13545.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13544.46284375,"end":13593.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13546.504718750002,"end":13547.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13593.585968750001,"end":13597.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13597.78784375,"end":13604.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13604.655968750001,"end":13610.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13609.532843750003,"end":13616.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13616.50221875,"end":13618.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":13620.552218750003,"end":13622.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":13622.72909375,"end":13625.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":13625.51346875,"end":13630.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":13631.90909375,"end":13632.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13637.528468750003,"end":13641.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":13641.34221875,"end":13642.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":13646.72534375,"end":13646.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13646.99534375,"end":13743.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13744.785968750002,"end":13753.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13754.35409375,"end":13785.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13784.05409375,"end":13784.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13785.589718750001,"end":13793.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13794.465968750003,"end":13811.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13811.914718750002,"end":13845.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13844.36534375,"end":13855.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13855.047218750002,"end":13872.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13874.622218750003,"end":13908.220343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13908.220343750003,"end":13921.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13908.254093750002,"end":13908.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13921.905968750001,"end":13922.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13922.277218750001,"end":13922.564093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13922.564093750003,"end":13924.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13924.42034375,"end":13941.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13941.61596875,"end":13950.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":13949.192843750003,"end":13949.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":13952.297843750002,"end":13956.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13964.59971875,"end":13966.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":13966.995968750001,"end":13967.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":13972.379093750002,"end":13972.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13972.78409375,"end":13972.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13972.88534375,"end":14024.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14024.55659375,"end":14024.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14024.57346875,"end":14024.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14024.843468750001,"end":14104.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14078.72534375,"end":14078.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14078.97846875,"end":14079.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14105.235968750003,"end":14113.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14114.01096875,"end":14134.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14135.05409375,"end":14153.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14153.262218750002,"end":14157.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14158.25721875,"end":14184.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14181.49409375,"end":14181.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14184.88596875,"end":14208.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14208.81471875,"end":14226.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14226.195968750002,"end":14251.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14226.398468750001,"end":14226.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14251.52534375,"end":14267.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14267.35409375,"end":14276.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14276.80409375,"end":14289.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14289.747218750003,"end":14290.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14290.017218750003,"end":14297.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14300.445968750002,"end":14314.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14307.16221875,"end":14307.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14307.17909375,"end":14307.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14307.415343750003,"end":14307.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14315.262218750002,"end":14331.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14329.285343750002,"end":14329.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14331.293468750002,"end":14331.782843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14331.968468750001,"end":14341.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14337.250343750002,"end":14337.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14339.089718750001,"end":14339.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14339.106593750003,"end":14339.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14339.157218750002,"end":14339.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14339.64659375,"end":14340.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14340.945968750002,"end":14349.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14344.28721875,"end":14344.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14347.949093750001,"end":14348.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14350.007843750001,"end":14355.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14355.79596875,"end":14410.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14368.60409375,"end":14369.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14410.825343750003,"end":14470.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14471.558468750001,"end":14472.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14472.38534375,"end":14473.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14473.684718750003,"end":14487.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14487.67409375,"end":14487.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14488.46721875,"end":14529.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14513.762843750003,"end":14513.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14519.06159375,"end":14519.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14529.76034375,"end":14538.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14538.14721875,"end":14542.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14542.112843750001,"end":14554.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14554.17846875,"end":14567.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14568.15096875,"end":14597.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14597.73284375,"end":14617.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14603.90909375,"end":14604.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14618.18534375,"end":14625.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14625.120968750001,"end":14626.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14625.84659375,"end":14626.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":14629.99784375,"end":14630.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":14630.925968750002,"end":14634.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":14635.144718750002,"end":14638.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":14639.27909375,"end":14642.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14651.564093750003,"end":14652.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14652.77909375,"end":14654.095343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":14654.26409375,"end":14654.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14659.96784375,"end":14660.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14661.01409375,"end":14664.220343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14664.91221875,"end":14669.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14669.82284375,"end":14673.501593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14674.007843750001,"end":14677.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14678.327843750001,"end":14680.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14681.179718750001,"end":14681.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14681.702843750001,"end":14685.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14686.208468750003,"end":14688.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14688.942218750002,"end":14691.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14691.895343750002,"end":14695.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14696.434718750003,"end":14698.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14699.235968750003,"end":14701.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14702.35784375,"end":14703.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14703.269093750001,"end":14707.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14708.38221875,"end":14712.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14712.786593750003,"end":14718.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14718.945968750002,"end":14722.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14723.29971875,"end":14724.548468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14726.72534375,"end":14740.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14740.90034375,"end":14742.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14742.790343750003,"end":14748.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14747.49846875,"end":14749.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14749.894718750002,"end":14752.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14751.07596875,"end":14752.814093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14752.814093750003,"end":14758.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14757.505343750003,"end":14761.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14761.26846875,"end":14768.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14768.035343750002,"end":14772.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14772.574718750002,"end":14782.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14782.851593750001,"end":14788.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14788.909718750001,"end":14801.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14801.92034375,"end":14804.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14805.126593750003,"end":14807.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14808.40034375,"end":14813.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14813.699093750001,"end":14813.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14813.93534375,"end":14814.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14814.390968750002,"end":14819.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14819.520968750003,"end":14832.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14823.739718750003,"end":14823.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14823.874718750001,"end":14823.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14823.90846875,"end":14823.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14831.97471875,"end":14840.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14840.51346875,"end":14842.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14843.669093750003,"end":14844.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14844.664718750002,"end":14845.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14846.16659375,"end":14849.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14849.27159375,"end":14851.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14851.347218750001,"end":14852.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14853.574718750002,"end":14854.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14855.093468750001,"end":14858.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14859.362843750001,"end":14862.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14862.687218750001,"end":14875.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14875.579718750003,"end":14879.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14879.17409375,"end":14882.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14883.257843750001,"end":14885.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14885.65409375,"end":14886.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14886.24471875,"end":14890.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14890.750343750002,"end":14896.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14896.234718750002,"end":14900.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14900.31846875,"end":14902.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14902.52909375,"end":14903.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14904.081593750001,"end":14913.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14914.915343750003,"end":14935.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14936.17784375,"end":14942.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14942.77596875,"end":14975.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14977.11659375,"end":15003.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15004.63971875,"end":15010.579718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15010.579718750003,"end":15027.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15027.25221875,"end":15062.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15039.149093750002,"end":15039.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15053.03721875,"end":15053.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15053.070968750002,"end":15053.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15056.749718750001,"end":15057.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15057.15471875,"end":15057.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15060.22596875,"end":15060.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15062.453468750002,"end":15076.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15076.88159375,"end":15092.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15093.28409375,"end":15113.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15113.41596875,"end":15115.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15115.879718750002,"end":15123.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15123.625343750002,"end":15127.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15128.56971875,"end":15130.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15131.016593750002,"end":15131.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15131.067218750002,"end":15135.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15136.14659375,"end":15145.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15146.49096875,"end":15147.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15148.245968750001,"end":15149.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15150.794093750003,"end":15163.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15156.430343750002,"end":15156.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15156.801593750002,"end":15156.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15163.247843750003,"end":15167.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15167.753468750001,"end":15168.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15168.52971875,"end":15171.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15171.516593750002,"end":15172.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15173.085968750001,"end":15201.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15199.90034375,"end":15200.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15200.980343750001,"end":15201.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15201.570968750002,"end":15201.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15201.65534375,"end":15205.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15205.28346875,"end":15231.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15231.91221875,"end":15239.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15240.130343750003,"end":15241.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15241.227218750002,"end":15241.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15241.24409375,"end":15241.294718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15241.480343750001,"end":15243.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15243.437843750002,"end":15243.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15243.72471875,"end":15248.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15248.618468750003,"end":15265.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15266.235968750003,"end":15287.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15287.009093750003,"end":15305.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15301.335968750001,"end":15301.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15303.597218750001,"end":15304.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15305.352218750002,"end":15310.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15305.90909375,"end":15306.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15306.65159375,"end":15306.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15310.887218750002,"end":15312.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15312.169718750003,"end":15312.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15313.418468750002,"end":15315.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15315.24096875,"end":15317.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15317.856593750003,"end":15319.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15319.425968750002,"end":15320.185343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15320.742218750001,"end":15321.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15322.56471875,"end":15323.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15324.235343750002,"end":15324.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15325.484093750001,"end":15328.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15336.38534375,"end":15338.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15340.637843750003,"end":15341.700968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15341.042843750001,"end":15341.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15341.700968750003,"end":15342.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15342.004718750002,"end":15342.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15342.03846875,"end":15342.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15342.848468750002,"end":15342.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15342.88221875,"end":15343.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15343.270343750002,"end":15343.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15343.590968750003,"end":15343.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15343.641593750002,"end":15343.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15343.72596875,"end":15345.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15343.742843750002,"end":15344.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15345.582218750002,"end":15346.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15347.961593750002,"end":15349.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15350.847218750001,"end":15353.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15354.019718750002,"end":15366.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15366.422843750002,"end":15366.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15367.165343750003,"end":15368.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15368.22846875,"end":15369.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15370.03409375,"end":15379.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15370.742843750002,"end":15370.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15370.75971875,"end":15371.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15371.046593750001,"end":15371.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15380.53034375,"end":15381.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15381.74534375,"end":15385.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15386.352218750002,"end":15387.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15388.59659375,"end":15393.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15394.637843750003,"end":15398.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15399.109718750002,"end":15400.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15403.075343750003,"end":15404.610968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15404.847218750001,"end":15406.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15407.85096875,"end":15409.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15411.74909375,"end":15412.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15412.677218750003,"end":15412.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15413.11596875,"end":15413.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15414.06096875,"end":15427.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15428.792843750001,"end":15431.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15432.218468750001,"end":15444.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15444.689093750003,"end":15447.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15447.692843750003,"end":15455.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15455.337218750003,"end":15459.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15461.327843750001,"end":15500.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15501.422843750002,"end":15511.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15511.969718750002,"end":15516.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15517.386593750001,"end":15517.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15518.63534375,"end":15520.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15521.68971875,"end":15535.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15530.71784375,"end":15530.751593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15530.751593750003,"end":15532.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15535.004093750002,"end":15535.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15535.30784375,"end":15535.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15535.375343750002,"end":15535.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15535.56096875,"end":15535.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15535.71284375,"end":15535.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15535.93221875,"end":15535.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15536.77596875,"end":15537.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15538.699718750002,"end":15541.247843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15541.73721875,"end":15556.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15557.009093750003,"end":15564.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15565.277843750002,"end":15569.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15570.30659375,"end":15571.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15571.437218750001,"end":15578.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15578.254718750002,"end":15587.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15588.29534375,"end":15593.982218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15595.551593750002,"end":15598.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15598.605968750002,"end":15607.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15608.511593750001,"end":15618.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15620.222843750002,"end":15639.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15638.22846875,"end":15638.700968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15639.03846875,"end":15644.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15645.14721875,"end":15655.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15656.200343750003,"end":15675.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15675.79221875,"end":15680.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15681.63096875,"end":15682.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15682.91346875,"end":15683.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15686.609093750001,"end":15701.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15693.544718750003,"end":15693.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":15693.578468750002,"end":15693.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15701.94846875,"end":15708.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15708.715343750002,"end":15731.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15711.70221875,"end":15711.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15732.30659375,"end":15733.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15734.80409375,"end":15735.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15737.706593750001,"end":15751.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15751.78034375,"end":15754.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15755.50971875,"end":15759.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15760.082843750002,"end":15760.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15760.84221875,"end":15762.360968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15763.575968750003,"end":15765.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15766.07346875,"end":15775.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15777.19409375,"end":15779.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15779.387843750003,"end":15780.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15781.851593750001,"end":15782.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15782.03721875,"end":15782.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15782.762843750003,"end":15801.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15800.81909375,"end":15801.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15801.949718750002,"end":15801.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15801.966593750003,"end":15802.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15802.574093750001,"end":15802.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15802.624718750001,"end":15803.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15804.126593750003,"end":15804.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15805.004093750002,"end":15807.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15807.40034375,"end":15808.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15809.374718750001,"end":15810.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15811.26471875,"end":15812.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15812.699093750001,"end":15814.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15815.601593750001,"end":15816.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15817.710968750001,"end":15818.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15819.938468750002,"end":15825.169718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15827.02596875,"end":15830.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15831.227843750003,"end":15832.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15833.62409375,"end":15835.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15836.138468750003,"end":15838.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15839.58096875,"end":15840.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15840.94784375,"end":15842.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15844.187843750002,"end":15846.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15846.85409375,"end":15847.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15848.457218750002,"end":15849.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15850.465343750002,"end":15864.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15865.09596875,"end":15868.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15868.53846875,"end":15884.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15884.333468750003,"end":15895.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15893.58096875,"end":15904.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15904.465343750002,"end":15904.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":15904.60034375,"end":15905.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15905.157218750002,"end":15905.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15905.528468750003,"end":15906.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15906.43971875,"end":15912.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15913.392218750003,"end":15923.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15923.618468750003,"end":15924.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15924.79971875,"end":15924.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15924.968468750001,"end":15925.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15925.035968750002,"end":15925.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15925.407218750002,"end":15925.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15925.42409375,"end":15925.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15925.96409375,"end":15967.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15969.737843750001,"end":15983.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15984.874718750001,"end":15985.532843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15989.12721875,"end":15990.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15990.93284375,"end":15991.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15993.599093750003,"end":15993.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15994.03784375,"end":15995.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15996.906593750002,"end":16000.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16010.33909375,"end":16012.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16013.207843750002,"end":16015.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":16015.620968750001,"end":16017.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":16020.29534375,"end":16020.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16021.375343750002,"end":16036.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16037.44034375,"end":16057.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16057.15034375,"end":16060.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16063.343468750001,"end":16068.220343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16068.220343750003,"end":16070.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16070.86971875,"end":16073.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16074.14346875,"end":16075.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16075.864718750003,"end":16080.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16076.792843750001,"end":16077.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16079.83034375,"end":16080.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16080.79221875,"end":16080.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16080.94409375,"end":16081.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16081.180343750002,"end":16081.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16082.344718750002,"end":16082.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16083.79596875,"end":16085.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16086.242843750002,"end":16087.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16088.048468750003,"end":16090.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16090.410968750002,"end":16099.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16099.97909375,"end":16101.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16101.44721875,"end":16114.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16114.710968750001,"end":16114.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16114.761593750001,"end":16115.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16116.044093750003,"end":16123.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16124.39721875,"end":16129.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16129.628468750001,"end":16147.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16148.747843750003,"end":16183.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16183.949093750001,"end":16194.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16195.27221875,"end":16204.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16205.414093750001,"end":16220.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16220.466593750003,"end":16226.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16226.71034375,"end":16247.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16248.394718750002,"end":16252.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16253.507843750001,"end":16270.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16270.770968750003,"end":16277.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16277.554718750001,"end":16280.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16280.895968750003,"end":16288.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16288.692218750002,"end":16317.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16317.649718750003,"end":16318.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16318.814093750003,"end":16321.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16321.379093750002,"end":16321.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16322.273468750001,"end":16323.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16324.14659375,"end":16325.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16325.68221875,"end":16335.689093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16335.925343750001,"end":16336.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16337.747843750003,"end":16340.700968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16341.325343750003,"end":16345.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16346.742218750001,"end":16355.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16356.05721875,"end":16357.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16357.305968750003,"end":16367.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16368.105968750002,"end":16373.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16370.704718750003,"end":16377.404093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16376.661593750003,"end":16377.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16378.93971875,"end":16379.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16380.15471875,"end":16380.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16381.386593750001,"end":16382.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16384.12034375,"end":16384.154093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16384.154093750003,"end":16384.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16384.94721875,"end":16384.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16384.96409375,"end":16384.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16384.980968750002,"end":16384.997843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16384.997843750003,"end":16386.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16385.04846875,"end":16385.436593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16386.11159375,"end":16386.280343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16386.43221875,"end":16395.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16394.88659375,"end":16413.297218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16415.997218750003,"end":16418.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16417.465343750002,"end":16419.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16418.37659375,"end":16418.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16422.679718749998,"end":16424.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16425.02534375,"end":16428.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16429.109093749998,"end":16487.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16487.69909375,"end":16488.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16489.015343749998,"end":16502.835968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16495.88346875,"end":16495.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":16495.90034375,"end":16496.406593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16503.645968750003,"end":16504.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16506.531593749998,"end":16506.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16506.936593749997,"end":16518.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16518.529718750004,"end":16526.342843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16525.83659375,"end":16531.810343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16532.29971875,"end":16547.554718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16548.11159375,"end":16560.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16561.20659375,"end":16571.601593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16573.154093750003,"end":16582.874093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16582.36784375,"end":16587.818468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16588.30784375,"end":16591.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16591.90221875,"end":16600.896593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16601.14971875,"end":16607.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16607.59596875,"end":16613.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16613.94096875,"end":16614.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16615.42596875,"end":16626.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16626.88409375,"end":16632.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16633.364093750002,"end":16635.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16636.334093750003,"end":16637.194718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16637.86971875,"end":16664.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16664.95409375,"end":16665.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16665.983468749997,"end":16676.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16678.234718749998,"end":16685.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16686.233468749997,"end":16686.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16687.22909375,"end":16699.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16698.974093750003,"end":16703.850968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16704.44159375,"end":16709.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16709.79096875,"end":16710.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16710.34784375,"end":16714.060343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16714.54971875,"end":16721.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16722.194093750004,"end":16726.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16727.273468749998,"end":16737.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16739.271593750003,"end":16745.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16742.629718750002,"end":16743.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16746.156593749998,"end":16750.476593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16750.746593750002,"end":16755.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16757.226593749998,"end":16760.078468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16757.26034375,"end":16769.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16769.849093750003,"end":16779.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16779.18096875,"end":16791.685343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16792.17471875,"end":16797.608468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16798.36784375,"end":16806.889718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16807.919093750003,"end":16811.226593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16812.475343750004,"end":16813.859093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16814.43284375,"end":16817.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16818.01034375,"end":16831.240343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16828.74284375,"end":16842.951593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16843.08659375,"end":16859.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16859.97846875,"end":16874.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16874.929718749998,"end":16898.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16899.280343749997,"end":16915.716593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16916.61096875,"end":16916.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16917.33659375,"end":16918.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16919.24346875,"end":16924.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16925.115968750004,"end":16960.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16962.105968750002,"end":16970.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16970.50971875,"end":16971.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16971.437843749998,"end":16972.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":16972.163468749997,"end":16972.585343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16982.288468749997,"end":16983.959093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16985.460968749998,"end":16991.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16991.755343750003,"end":16992.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16992.615968750004,"end":16995.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16996.96971875,"end":16997.560343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16998.37034375,"end":17000.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17000.631593750004,"end":17001.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17002.38659375,"end":17004.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17005.08659375,"end":17007.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17007.803468750004,"end":17011.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17011.701593750004,"end":17013.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17012.359718749998,"end":17012.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17014.215968750003,"end":17020.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17021.33721875,"end":17045.451593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17038.364093750002,"end":17038.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":17038.44846875,"end":17038.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17038.54971875,"end":17038.617218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17046.04221875,"end":17053.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17053.703468749998,"end":17055.998468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17056.48784375,"end":17066.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17067.169718750003,"end":17071.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17071.506593750004,"end":17072.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17073.177218750003,"end":17074.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17075.15159375,"end":17075.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17075.75909375,"end":17076.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17076.754718750002,"end":17078.172218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17078.83034375,"end":17082.593468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17083.15034375,"end":17084.922218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17085.47909375,"end":17086.694093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17086.93034375,"end":17088.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17088.83721875,"end":17104.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17104.834718750004,"end":17106.319718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17106.77534375,"end":17108.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17108.395343750002,"end":17119.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17119.465343750002,"end":17121.304718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17121.709718750004,"end":17124.20721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":117.955,"end":118.441,"text":"字幕志愿者 杨栋梁"},{"start":173.84,"end":174.321,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":1823.213,"end":1827.131,"text":"報告委員會初期委員人數施任已足法定人數請主席宣布開會"},{"start":1828.956,"end":1855.791,"text":"好現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第八次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百一十四年四月二十八日星期一九時至十三時九分地點群賢樓八零一會議室出席委員陳委員趙姿等十五人列席委員鄭委員鄭淺等六人列席官員環境部部長彭啟明等相關人員主席劉兆吉委員建國"},{"start":1856.591,"end":1879.087,"text":"報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況並備質詢本日會議由環境部部長報告後委員陳昭芝等19人提出質詢均經環境部部長及各相關主管等即席答覆委員徐欣穎所提書面質詢列錄記錄刊登公報決定一報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":1879.787,"end":1893.837,"text":"二委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關期關於二週內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定宣讀完畢好請問委員會議上次議事錄有無錯誤或疑慮之處"},{"start":1895.56,"end":1909.204,"text":"那如果沒有我們就意思來做確定本會議議程為邀請勞動部部長經濟部及內政部就五一勞動節前夕我國勞工職長預防職業災害及廠廠墜落事故之檢討與精進作為進行專題報告並被質詢那現在介紹在場的委員第一位是陳昭志委員再來是蘇昭維"},{"start":1925.848,"end":1952.41,"text":"再來是林月琴委員再來是王振旭 王委員接下來介紹我們與會的官員勞動部部長 洪森翰勞動力發展署署長 黃寧玉謝謝勞動保險局局長 白立珍謝謝職業安全衛生署署長 林益棠謝謝"},{"start":1954.678,"end":1962.841,"text":"勞動及職業安全衛生研究所所長李伯昌我們重規師師長王厚成謝謝勞動關係師師長王厚為謝謝勞動保險師師長陳美女謝謝勞動扶植退休師副師長陳慧榮勞動條件及就業評審師師長黃維生"},{"start":1978.27,"end":2004.627,"text":"採訪法人職業災害預防及重慶中心執行長何俊傑經濟部產業發展署副署長周宇新農業署副署長李曉娟產業園區管理局副署長蘇鴻毅商業發展署副署長熊立恆水利署科長蔡耀慶國營事業管理司科長林漢龍"},{"start":2007.059,"end":2035.98,"text":"台灣電力股民有限公司處長徐進福台灣政府股民有限公司副處長傅佐藤內政部國土管理署總工程師士副總工程師蘇建榮建築管理署檢任正工程師盧昭宏營建管理署科長沈雅娟都市基礎工程組科長郭建文"},{"start":2038.871,"end":2042.981,"text":"好 謝謝好 那接下來我們就來請勞動部紅部長做報告"},{"start":2053.365,"end":2068.683,"text":"主席各位委員大家好那感謝主席與各位委員的支持讓我有機會向各位報告勞動部預防職業災害及場場墜落事故之檢討與精進作為那敬請各位委員給予指教"},{"start":2070.625,"end":2083.118,"text":"勞動安全健康不僅攸關每位勞工的生命安全更是企業永續經營與國家穩定發展的重要基石本部積極推動各項職場防災的措施經由各界的協助和努力下"},{"start":2084.352,"end":2110.593,"text":"近10年的職業災害保險給付千人率已從103年的3467下降至113年的2375呈現逐年下降的趨勢那遺憾的是近期發生多起的重大公安事件其中部分重大公安事件處於複合式的災害涉及職業安全及公共安全等多面向為督促業者落實尊重職安"},{"start":2111.434,"end":2134.27,"text":"建築及消防法令等規定本部已積極檢討並提出下列精進的重點第一個是我們會來鎖定火災爆炸高風險廠廠專案檢查來強化製程安全的管理那列管易發生火災爆炸風險的石化廠及大型化學工廠等危險場所針對高風險者優先實施檢查"},{"start":2137.833,"end":2156.946,"text":"第二個我們會加強跨機關合作減災邀集經濟部內政部及交通部等目的事業主管機關就防災疫情進行研商並請各部會督促所屬事業精進災害預防措施第三個我們會修正職業安全衛生法增訂工程業主交付規劃設計及施工的風風險評估責任"},{"start":2161.549,"end":2180.846,"text":"並要求各級承攬商均應負起工程防災管理責任目前草案已報請行政院審查並將盡快送立法院審議第四個我們會善用化學雲資訊平台定期篩選全國申報使用危險物的事業單位清澈由勞動檢查機關依風險等集納管實施檢查或輔導"},{"start":2185.782,"end":2205.714,"text":"第五個會強化局限空間的作業防災措施針對高風險的局限空間作業辦理動態檢查並強化從業人員的防災知識第六個會提供中小企業協助由專業團隊輔導中小企業改善工作環境並提供輔助支援第七個會強化實務現場防災智能針對高風險廠廠及作業勞工辦理安全衛生宣導講習"},{"start":2213.979,"end":2232.371,"text":"督導雇主辦理教育訓練加強第一線人員職災預防意識第8個建立職災線上查詢平台建置重大職災公開網透過公眾監督機制使事業單位重視那再來是"},{"start":2233.171,"end":2240.117,"text":"另有關廠廠墜落事故的部分經統計全國111年至113年重大職災死亡人數907位其中墜落總共是444人約佔49%又以營造業墜落302人數為最高因為此本部於去年推動營造業墜落預防減災策進計劃"},{"start":2259.894,"end":2278.628,"text":"採取加強檢查裁罰及停工措施經統計113年營造業墜落職災死亡人數已降至83人較前年平均值減少17人那本部今年再會再採取下列更精進的作為第一個持續加強營造業墜落預防的專案檢查"},{"start":2280.849,"end":2302.045,"text":"将重大建筑投资大型厂房等高风险工程列册实施监督检查第二个结合外部资源扩大施工安全监督强度运用减灾跨机关合作平台研讨减灾策略并办理联合稽查第三个持续与建设业营造业等雇主团体合作减灾"},{"start":2303.146,"end":2327.658,"text":"要求建設公司或大型工程業主善盡業主防災責任並提出具體改善做法第四個加強勞工墜落預防教育訓練辦理個人安全防護具以及防災知識及台灣職安卡等教育訓練第五個強化各級主管善盡安全管理責任要求營造高階主管及"},{"start":2328.678,"end":2340.664,"text":"各級承攬商負起安全衛生管理責任第6個提升移工危害預防知識對入境移工發放直接安全衛生宣導手冊並對中小企業推廣多國語語版的數位課程"},{"start":2344.176,"end":2366.123,"text":"為保障工作者及安全與健康達成持續降低職業災害之目標本部已規劃多項安慰減災措施並積極推動職安法修法以強化督促業者落實職業防災管理令對中小企業部分將以宣導輔導及設施輔助等多元措施提供協助"},{"start":2367.023,"end":2379.293,"text":"希望能擴大防災量能提升全民公安意識以及建構良好的職場安全文化以上報告敬請各位委員不吝指教並祝主席與各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝"},{"start":2386.977,"end":2409.802,"text":"有關本次會議各項順便資料經列入記錄刊登公報那現在開始做懸導做一下宣告本位委員質詢時間6加2分鐘立席委員4加1分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如果順便質詢請三位請提出預期不受理暫定10點半休息10分鐘原則上11點半出臨時提案10點30截止收案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭芝委員來做懸導"},{"start":2415.337,"end":2418.139,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩部長部長早部長早 明天就是五一勞動節去年六五代表民進黨黨團去參加勞工大遊行當時你有說要把勞工的聲音帶進行政部門"},{"start":2439.651,"end":2456.404,"text":"哪你知道一年後你現在就在行政部門而且你是最高這個主管勞工事務的一個最高機關勞動部的部長那我想先請教你你明天會出去面對廣大勞工的一個訴求嗎跟回應嗎你明天再去嗎"},{"start":2458.198,"end":2480.023,"text":"我明天不會去遊行啦但是你會不會去面對他們的訴求但是其實勞工朋友提出來的一些訴求我想我們在部裡面都會討論而且認真的來去做思考這樣的意思說你了解他們的訴求是什麼嗎他們今年有七大訴求你知道他們的訴求是什麼嗎知道當然你知道他們的訴求知道講一兩個聽"},{"start":2481.643,"end":2500.415,"text":"我可以跟你講全部啦第一個當然大家這次很重要的訴求是反霸凌然後反霸凌要保障的部分然後再來有包括大家期望其實很多老公一直都期望有降低工時或者是國家的調整那也包括其實也希望有更多的老年的保障老年的平衡"},{"start":2501.235,"end":2523.384,"text":"謝謝部長 因為我那陣子你都在想我問你 你就都不記得了那今天你做了準備 但是你對這個訴求你們有沒有開始討論一些想法呢 還是就是放著其實我們當然不會放著啦第一個是就像這次 我想很多 我認為不只是勞工團體啦有很多勞工朋友現在都很關心的霸凌的問題"},{"start":2524.464,"end":2542.882,"text":"我們其實現在也是在治安法的修法上面其實放入了這個霸凌防治的專章那就是希望去回應其實這段時間社會對於霸凌議題的期待謝謝部長這個部分我們民眾黨也提出了一個專法出來了我們大概很努力要推動它"},{"start":2543.663,"end":2566.12,"text":"那部長其實很多人都說換位置換腦袋但我覺得換位置不是他是個負面說法其實換了位置你做事方法會不一樣但是我想有一些價值是不能改變的就是說因為你現在從這個監督者變成行政者那你更有行政的權利去幫助你當年你的理想跟報復你承諾這個勞工的這個對他們的這個承諾嘛我想說你是不是同意這個說法你現在更有權利去幫助他們啊"},{"start":2573.185,"end":2598.395,"text":"行政方面的當然是行政會有一些行政方面的空間像我只能監督勞動部但是我不能叫他一定要去做什麼我就沒有這個所以你現在有這個權利囉那部長那我們來看一個事情這個其實我也是很這個不雙標的啦對我的母校母院台大醫院前兩天對五一勞動節加班醫院的調查表這個調查表在網路新聞媒體都看得到部長你看過了嗎"},{"start":2601.575,"end":2618.908,"text":"很明顯的調查表裡面只有兩個選項他是同意到院工作並選擇調移國定假日還有另外一個選擇是同意到院工作並領加班費但是通篇沒有一個是依法休假一日當天不到院工作因為他們很多人是這個老計法保障的"},{"start":2620.368,"end":2644.275,"text":"這個選項等於是說你強迫他們就只能到院然後再來看看怎麼處理雖然台大醫院的發言人說他們是針對有意願來工作來上班人才調查但是但是台大醫院崗會講的不一樣喔他們做的調查是75.8等於76超過四分之三的他們的會員說他們根本沒有被告知就強迫排進去了"},{"start":2646.421,"end":2674.179,"text":"假設你是員工你對這個選項這個調查表你有什麼看法呢跟委員報告其實在這個案件上我們有看到我自己也看了那個調查表那台大醫院狀況其實我們已經在4月28號的時候當天已經發函給台北市政府請他們的勞檢來協助了解狀況再來一個是我覺得很重要的是如果現在工會的陳情的內容確實的話他們的調查就台大醫院所製作的書表看起來"},{"start":2676.868,"end":2694.995,"text":"應該有三個選項嘛是不太容易讓勞工完整表達他們的想法的所以我們也要建議所有的事業單位就國定假日跟工作日對調的實施不是建議喔雖然衛福部也是管醫院但是這個就勞工的部分你是責任欸"},{"start":2697.296,"end":2721.096,"text":"所以我現在要說的是我們其實已經在4月28號已經發函要求特區市政府做檢查第二個我剛才也說了如果就目前的這個書表的內容來看的話我自己也覺得恐怕是這個不容易讓勞工完整的表達不容易讓勞工完整的表達他們對這個事件的看法我想我自己也是認為是這樣"},{"start":2721.937,"end":2748.238,"text":"那部長我也跟你講我在醫院工作的一輩子不要擔心總是會有人願意把醫院的工作完成醫院不會因此而因為他們的權益而停止這個對外服務這部分當然陳委員比較有意見比較有經驗今天的主題你把這個勞動部去年2024我也不知道你上任沒有他把它去年定為營造業最弱打擊年他希望整個最弱死亡的人數營造業低於68人可是最後還是有"},{"start":2749.76,"end":2755.628,"text":"85位勞工因墜落死亡就是去年的數字部長那你知不知道當初為什麼訂個68人呢雖然我知道你剛剛報告65不過媒體是寫68人但是相去不遠你這個目標是怎麼訂出來的為什麼會訂出這個人數"},{"start":2766.4,"end":2786.022,"text":"過去應該是因為就前三年的一些平均然後定了一個降低30%的目標那今年呢那個是過去定的那這一年呢你定了多少你的目標政策是多少人呢我們目前還是希望能夠做到這個目標那你這樣就停滯啊去年達不到那你今天就繼續你沒有想到要改進嗎"},{"start":2788.696,"end":2813.222,"text":"不敢把目標降的修正嗎根文說明其實並不是不想改進我們其實很努力跟包括我們自然屬很多同仁都在進行改進但我們在方法上希望能夠更強化因為實際上面這個做法上還是要實施就像去年確實有沒有達標的狀況可是我們還是希望在這個目標上面盡量我們希望能夠在這個目標上面去做到但重點是方法上要有"},{"start":2813.982,"end":2830.482,"text":"更重要的狀況我們建議但是行政部門重點是方法上就像委員說的要有新的方法要有強化的做法結果墜落死了85人那你現在又說因為打不到所以不敢把這個標準再繼續"},{"start":2832.364,"end":2852.996,"text":"做修正那就可以年復一年了在到達這個68年之前永遠不要修正啊我不是這個意思我的意思是說我們都希望能夠精進但精進的重點在於方法所以我們要有更強化的方法有些做法我們要做得更更到位甚至要有新的方法"},{"start":2853.676,"end":2880.922,"text":"今天你的報告裡面唯一沒有包含的就是這個當然治安法是有規定僱主必須提供符合安全規定的這個一些衛生這個設備及措施防止墜落讓這個物體飛落等等會有崩壞之餘的一些場所引起的危害但是我看了一下其實整個罰則你今天沒有提到罰則的部分如果無人傷亡就罰3萬到30萬有人因此死亡是處3年以下有期徒刑或病科罰金30萬以下"},{"start":2882.122,"end":2896.856,"text":"受傷人數在三個以上也只需要一年有期徒刑或併科18萬以下的罰金部長你覺得這樣罰則有辦法讓促使僱主提供一個安全的工作環境嗎所以我們就是因為認為這個罰則太輕所以現在所以現在把這個罰則的提高放入了職安法的修法裡面"},{"start":2902.842,"end":2916.955,"text":"我的意思是說你讓雇主覺得我要提升設備安全設備的措施成本可能比摔死一個人的30萬還要高所以你這樣子你這個有恫嚇力嗎所以營造業通常資本雄厚所以我們就是覺得罰則不夠"},{"start":2918.636,"end":2940.12,"text":"所以才在這次的修法裡面放入了罰則的提高就是希望能夠更加的落實相關的法規讓剛剛就像剛剛委員說的希望能夠讓營造業有那個被有恫嚇有恫嚇力你說有恫嚇力或者是他必須要去執行我聽你看你自己的數字齁這個違反這個治安法的法規齁你看越來越高2023年是2000多件2024年是又增加了幾百件"},{"start":2947.181,"end":2964.636,"text":"當然今年是現在還有一季的資料所以你看你是不是要更加用努力去保障高空作業勞工的安全因為不合格率越高他就在暗示風險就是一直存在甚至一直在提高難怪你的數字達不到標當然我覺得該檢討的部分有沒有做到位的部分"},{"start":2965.276,"end":2968.177,"text":"我們其實會徹底檢討那很多事情大家都說你有什麼標準那我們常常都是看鄰近國家或其他國家嘛那我想這個數字你知道吧部長你可不可以知道當然你在書面報告有稍微提到了我們有兩天我們我國因為營造業的勞工墜死的比例超過六成"},{"start":2985.245,"end":3001.328,"text":"那日本是四成新加坡是不到三成那人家是怎麼做到的那右邊這個就是勞研所的研究左邊是個無法改變的事實目前就是這樣子沒有做好那右邊勞研所的研究提到我國並會針對人員墜落預防有直接的訓練而且相關的課程時數不足更沒有實務的這個"},{"start":3010.271,"end":3027.149,"text":"訓練課程這個研究有提到日本日本是因為這個日本大約四成嘛靠近四成以及他們有將墜落預防的教育那種分為學科跟數科就是講一個知識的東西沒有數科是不行的數科就是實務的訓練"},{"start":3028.71,"end":3040.097,"text":"在醫院醫學院的訓練也都是如此有知識的但是也有實習實際去操作的部分那這個部分那個而且勞工要受這個相關訓練的一些教育訓練都要相關要都要去做部長那你認為在高空的這麼危險的環境中勞工作的勞工怎麼樣訂立一個制度提供一個正確的公安跟知識跟這個技能部長您訂立要多努力"},{"start":3054.626,"end":3078.058,"text":"因為方法很具體嘛就是沒有做的東西很具體嘛如果做的東西都沒報過就對了謝謝委員建議其實這一次我們也是在治安法的修法裡面把其實過去確實可能在工地會有層層轉包的狀況下這也造成很多在營建業工地裡面的這個風險包括墜落的風險我們也是把這些相關的責任的整合在這次修法裡面做了放入跟處理這樣子請部長多費心謝謝部長"},{"start":3081.374,"end":3097.904,"text":"好 謝謝陳昭智委員的發言 謝謝部長的回應 下一位我們請林衛巡委員發言謝謝主席 有請我們的洪部長有請洪部長嘿"},{"start":3104.315,"end":3131.63,"text":"部長早那根據去年的調查有13person15到19歲的青少年選擇從事營造工作暫居第三那這個工作俗稱小工或善工特性便是薪水相對事實上高按日計籌大概一天1200到1800左右可是是臨時性的危險性也高那多半是沒有勞健保的那這個行業呢有高薪的吸引力可是很危險"},{"start":3132.31,"end":3149.798,"text":"降低營造業的高職災率還有高職災死亡率的話特別是我覺得高處墜落導致死亡的那樣的一個議題呢事實上主要是在保護勞工產業甚至事實上是一直我很關心的那個青少年"},{"start":3151.906,"end":3166.087,"text":"那大概根據我們的新加坡的就是2022年數據台灣的重大職災每10萬人死亡率事實上是新加坡的兩倍那日本是1.8倍 荷蘭是9倍那台灣的職災"},{"start":3167.689,"end":3194.456,"text":"死亡又以营造业市上是最多2024年国内职灾的死亡率营造业占50.33%为制造业的6.4倍其他产业的28倍所以想问部长营造业从业人数仅占劳工比例的6%而已可是但死亡人数长期是居各产业之冠五年逐年占比45%到50%在灾害的管理上这意味着"},{"start":3195.544,"end":3201.678,"text":"風險集中其中必然有常態性的管理疏失跟違規的問題請問部長你如何解釋這種風險集中的現象"},{"start":3206.071,"end":3231.715,"text":"跟委員報告那確實這個營造業在台灣目前大概佔的重大值在超過50%那我們檢討的話大概是主要是目前的在台灣的這個營造工地就是呃這個層層轉報的情形非常嚴重那在轉報的過程中他將風險就一併轉嫁到下報所以這一次我們在這一次的子安法修法裡面也特別要去處理這一塊就是每個包商都要負責安全衛生的"},{"start":3231.855,"end":3241.495,"text":"對我看老公部也是希望說針對降低營造業最弱高度制止要做強化不過本期也很懷疑這些措施到底有沒有達到有效降低我們"},{"start":3243.101,"end":3262.341,"text":"營造業的那個植栽的死亡率的效果為什麼這樣講呢根據六年來的一個統計新加坡跟日本營造業他們的那個致死率 墜落致死率大概是在40%左右那韓國的確事實上是比較高大概53%左右可是台灣的更高在60到70"},{"start":3263.939,"end":3288.357,"text":"那所以想問一下我覺得去年勞動部把降低營造業的最弱死亡為重點項目宣稱2024年要達到剛剛我想部長也有報告也就是營造業的最弱打擊年就2024年是目標死亡人數要低於68人那對可是2024年全民營造業的最弱死亡事實上是83人整體"},{"start":3289.161,"end":3312.722,"text":"在整體的受傷人數事實上是56.3%是沒有達標的所以我想問一下部長政策推動一年營造業最多死亡率人數確實有下降可是效果不如預期難保一個放鬆那數字又會上升上來你是否認為現行的預防措施到底夠不夠是不是有加強有計畫加強我們的檢查跟查罰的罰則"},{"start":3314.571,"end":3338.665,"text":"那個跟立委說明其實我們確實在參考一些其他國家的經驗就比方說我剛才講到新加坡那在新加坡的例子裡面我們也看到新加坡的確他因為他的業主的責任很重那我們過去我們的食安法裡面其實對於業主其實比較難去跟他苛責跟究責比較多都是對於下面的包商"},{"start":3339.505,"end":3359.835,"text":"的責任所以這一次在治安法裡面我們也把業主的責任能夠救的部分給放進來這也是我們在參考剛剛就像委員說的其他國家的經驗上面我們做了參考跟檢討以後覺得應該要在法規上面有所精進跟修訂好 所以要麻煩因為部長過去也一直很關心勞動議題"},{"start":3361.874,"end":3387.704,"text":"那所以針對於勞動部歷年的報告做分析營造業發生職災的造勢原因包括防護設備配置不當支架這些本體的強度不足還有防罪器性能強度不足還有個人護具呢我們的佩戴不確實在工地的管理上不管是勞工的個人行為或是雇主"},{"start":3388.124,"end":3406.66,"text":"沒有善經教育的訓練的責任違規好 故意違規這都是問題所以不知道職安法對於我們職業的安全管理以自主管理為原則政府介入為特殊狀況可是這樣的態度立法並實務上是要政府介入的方式都是要有人舉報就舉報違規"},{"start":3409.222,"end":3424.05,"text":"或者是政府要主動發起專案檢查才能夠啟動勞動檢查作為直接介入的手段所以勞動檢查每年都在做這些做法是不是真的能夠有效降低我們的植栽的發生率跟死亡嗎"},{"start":3426.406,"end":3444.037,"text":"老檢是手段之一那其實我想大家也知道老檢其實他常常是比較後面他是要讓這個我們的法規能夠真的被落實那他是方法之一可是也不是全部都靠勞動檢查所以包括在源頭的部分的檢栽也需要甚至"},{"start":3444.817,"end":3466.424,"text":"其實也需要一些跨部會的合作 我說跨部會合作 比方剛剛大家在講到這個營造業的部分那我們也希望能夠跟內政部或國土署那針對在這個目的世界主覽機關上面那我們怎麼跟他們一起來做合作所以整體的剪裁的做法裡面 我想方方面面我們都希望能夠做得更好"},{"start":3468.086,"end":3496.306,"text":"不過也想問 部長因為我一直很關心我們的耳哨 當然青少年也是我關心的一塊 剛剛前面也講說他們有13%是在這個營造業裡邊而且15歲到24歲尤其是15歲到16歲本來工作他們不應該進入到這個行業 更何況17到18本來就有些更多的保障所以我覺得勞動部如何去怎麼去提升特別一些安全意識尤其是在營造業工作的這些青少年們"},{"start":3497.421,"end":3521.181,"text":"其實我想其實整體我自己是認為營造業整體的安全文化跟安全意識都需要提升然後這個也不是只針對青少年的部分那我自己也認為說當然包括營造業的法尊能夠做的到位包括他們的安全衛生的管理的相關機制能夠做的到位可能才有辦法比較真正的去保護到在裡面工作的這些青少年或二少"},{"start":3521.681,"end":3548.079,"text":"所以他還是必須從一個這個根本的原因去做思考可是如果需要的話我們也覺得對於很多公安的文化那怎麼樣勞工有更多這方面的意識跟教育這部分當然我們也希望能夠多做這樣子因為我覺得畢竟青少年還是比較脆弱啦尤其營造業本來風險就比較高那參考荷蘭、英國、新加坡這些國家對職業安全他們事實上的態度、經濟態度比我們台灣更高"},{"start":3548.834,"end":3571.731,"text":"他們採取的是強制企業提交風險評估報告來違規停業處分那甚至要求是勞工參與監督制度安全預算納入工程總預算或者是專項的整治高風險的工地這些手段目的就是確保我們的產業呢事實上是可以投入足夠的經費來對於職業安全"},{"start":3574.366,"end":3593.544,"text":"能夠做投資可是相對於台灣這個觀念投資的觀念並不普遍所以我覺得我認為原因應該是法律為民定就像我這邊提的為民定比例還有產業真的是不夠重視所以至於我們的投資態度是這樣消極而且官方沒有什麼數據所以想問一下營造業"},{"start":3594.745,"end":3608.937,"text":"企業平均每年在安全設備跟人員培訓上到底投入多少資源到底勞動部有沒有掌握還有政府除了宣導鼓勵有沒有更具體的作為要求企業要增加安全投資的比例"},{"start":3609.625,"end":3629.516,"text":"跟文說明其實我們跟文感受是一樣的就是說過去其實在針對風險的評估上面做得不夠也沒有入法所以這一次我說一樣是這次治安法的修法我們有把業主在安全風險評估上的責任而且要提撥一定的經費用於這個安慰"},{"start":3630.576,"end":3649.028,"text":"這個安全衛生的投資的部分我們其實也寫到這個法規裡面那讓下面的承包商其實有比較充足的經費來做這些相關的運用跟做工地的管理所以這是這次我們修法的重點之一好謝謝部長這樣很好那就希望你們的法趕快能夠也送進來能夠保障那"},{"start":3653.12,"end":3677.658,"text":"媒體報導 大概今年初到三月底光是重大職業安全意外事件就已經報導六起了十人死亡 五十八人受傷其中營造業的職安事件就佔了一半這還不包括沒有被媒體披露的事件所以我想問一下 去年勞動部以降低營造業最多死亡為重點項目死亡人數定在六十八人以下今年應該持續進行"},{"start":3679.219,"end":3683.589,"text":"而且手段應該更精進 所以想問一下部長今年的目標是多少"},{"start":3684.979,"end":3708.214,"text":"我們今年的目標還是在因為去年其實很坦承說還有沒有做到的部分但是我們今年是希望有一些更精進的手段來做這個目標的達成所以也麻煩部長針對這我現在提出來的兩點就是提高營造業勞工的公立安全意識"},{"start":3709.673,"end":3721.14,"text":"那畢竟我剛剛講我關心那一塊他也還在這個工作場域裡邊 青少年那增加營造業的職業安全的投資比例然後所以這是不是兩週內可以給我具體的書面報告那"},{"start":3724.451,"end":3738.723,"text":"稍微再給我一點時間再問部長一個問題就4月初北捷清潔派遣人員在臺灣勞動派遣產業工會的協助下跟北捷公司發生我們的勞資爭議也就是他們發動這個勞資爭議勞工主述北捷將清潔工"},{"start":3744.708,"end":3759.898,"text":"做委外 派遣人員連之水北街跟派遣公司之間的合約中斷因此有勞工工作十年那他還是只有三天特休的這個爭議這個案子勞工有跟勞動部陳情所以想問部長這邊針對這個案子是不是請你做說明說"},{"start":3763.58,"end":3789.549,"text":"過去對政府單位習慣將清潔保安這些工作委外的做法勞動部的看法是什麼他針對本案勞動部如何協助這些清潔工取回他們受損的權利或者是預計你怎麼處理好我們其實非常非常關注北捷的這個案子北捷跟清潔人員這個案子其實勞務為了保障派駐的勞工的權益其實我們是有定有這個勞務承攬的參考原則"},{"start":3790.734,"end":3815.714,"text":"那其中針對特別特休的計算其實我們就明定其實應該由於法令來給那在參考原則裡面的第四點其實就說那這個提供勞務而未中斷年資的人應該從他在這個機關工作那從第一日算到他這個相關的年資都應該並計然後來計算他的特休的日數"},{"start":3816.815,"end":3838.693,"text":"那包括工程會其實也訂定了勞務採購契約範本來告訴這些承攬的廠商同一機關如果未中斷服務的年資的話應該何必計算來給予特休的年數所以確實現在如果從資料上面看到如果這些清潔人員的陳情是屬實的話目前看起來北捷很可能有違反了其實我們訂定的參考員還有工程會的契約範本"},{"start":3839.714,"end":3858.251,"text":"所以其實在這個週一我們已經發函給台北捷運那要求他們應該要落實法規那讓這個清潔人員應該要有依法的這些特修的權益好 謝謝部長也持續能夠再持續協助他們謝謝謝謝林岳勳委員的發言謝謝部長的答詢下一位我們請陳建惠委員發言"},{"start":3869.742,"end":3876.343,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝主席 謝謝委員 謝謝官員我也想邀請勞動部部長請黃部長這邊好好 部長好今天我們想就勞動部對於新媒體推動業務這些成效來做一個總體檢那我們來看一下這是您勞動部的這些圖都製作得非常精美所以想必也是用了蠻多費用的"},{"start":3898.248,"end":3925.945,"text":"但最左邊有個工會簽訂團體協定有9個人按讚再來我們看跨領域就業津貼全攻略15個人按讚還有這些卡通畫得非常漂亮婦女在就業漫畫圖有18個人按讚以及婦女在就業一樣是18個人按讚那之後因為您還蠻擅長新媒體這個部分請問你有沒有要就這些新媒體的成效推廣做一些改進呢"},{"start":3927.672,"end":3952.883,"text":"因為我看你這邊列的應該是IG的部分但是我們其實可能一個圖文的宣傳不會只放在一個單一個社群平臺所以同時我們也會放在比方說放在Facebook放在Thread都會放但是我目前就我知道的是其實在其他平臺的效果其實是蠻不錯的相關的點閱或者按讚數其實應該比"},{"start":3953.962,"end":3982.222,"text":"可能在IG我們可能剛開始經營吧好好沒關係那再來我只是給你看一下這個也是最新的一個我認為其實也蠻重要就是紓困貸款開放申請他只有8個人按讚那您知道說紓困貸款這些很多也是年輕人那IG剛好是一個年輕人很會用的平台啊所以我也會希望說未來你們對於這方面年輕人會用的新媒體可以再做更多的"},{"start":3982.622,"end":3995.769,"text":"有效的推廣更多的有效的推廣不一定代表是需要花更多錢跟委員說明因為你的這個裡面寫說媒體宣傳大筆大筆花其實應該沒有大筆大筆花沒關係等一下我們來討論我有準備"},{"start":3999.671,"end":4021.766,"text":"我有準備資料我有準備資料我只是覺得你有這麼好的平台而且你個人其實也是在之前嘛也算是一位非常善於經營新媒體的所以我希望你可以把你的專長應用在發揮在勞動部上面我們能夠做更好的部分我們願意來做那當然我只是點出這些問題那希望以你的專長是可以改進的"},{"start":4022.826,"end":4024.548,"text":"那當然再來呢這也是很多人到現在還在說的啦這個YT頻道你們也成立蠻久的啊那之前其實我也看部長還不是部長的時候也很擅長經營YT不敢這樣說"},{"start":4037.623,"end":4057.111,"text":"因此我們來看這些這個演唱會已經是被主計部統計出來囉總共是花368萬辦演唱會加上給同位導演做剪片那剪了五六支片其中也有幕後花絮啊等等的這些好你看一年前至今也是只有幾百次嘛"},{"start":4058.359,"end":4078.616,"text":"所以我也希望您可以利用你的專長來改進這一個部分我不敢說這個社群媒體經營是我的專長我不敢這樣說那我們等一下看一下因為其實您個人的按讚都大勝於勞動部如果可以的話我們也希望可以應用到勞動部這上面來再來我們來看這一個"},{"start":4079.517,"end":4100.835,"text":"我有看了您11月上任的誓詞當時你有一段很感人的誓詞你說我要當全民的部長然後我要當勞工的靠山那我們先來看您的這個IG非常多追蹤者也希望可以引用到勞工部這邊這不算多第一個你已經不是民進黨立院黨團的議員了啦當初陳菊加入監察院的時候就暫時註銷了黨籍"},{"start":4107.501,"end":4116.124,"text":"因為您的誓詞裡面是全民的部長 您覺得這個妥協嗎 您還把DPP黨團放在第一個精華DPP黨團這個應該 我們應該已經改版了這是我們昨天才看的這個"},{"start":4128.622,"end":4157.455,"text":"陳委員我這樣說第一個我是勞動部長洪森漢這句話是事實這個勞動部沒宣費被大砍也是事實好等一下我們會來看勞動部沒宣費什麼叫做大砍然後我也有剪出我們之前來檢討預算這個部分好不好但是您用週末的時間秉持您的立場去做大宣講這個當然是OK可是因為這個IG是24小時在run的嘛那"},{"start":4158.155,"end":4177.247,"text":"我覺得您的誓詞裡面希望自己可以秉持行政中立而且我們有看其他其實很多部門的部長他們並沒有這樣子做啊他們並沒有這樣子做啊他們可能週末的時候大選講可是他們在平常自己的社群是秉持行政中立的尤其是24小時的好那我們等一下來看為什麼你要說"},{"start":4178.308,"end":4183.109,"text":"勞動部沒宣費被大砍所以拜託追蹤一起挺勞工剛剛我給您看的那幾個貼文喔8個讚18個讚15個讚很多都發生在預算整理之前喔所以以前你覺得沒有被砍的時候也是做得很差然後後來呢你覺得被砍還是做得很差所以請大家追蹤這樣子不對吧這樣說不過去吧"},{"start":4204.622,"end":4220.434,"text":"那個陳委員第一個我還是要說在某些特定的社群平台上面的這個宣傳成效有沒有值得更加強的地方我想我們願意回去檢討這部分是這樣那你剛才講的是IG的部分我們願意回去檢討這是第一點"},{"start":4224.597,"end":4237.952,"text":"第二點確實今年的煤酸煤圈費用 沒關係我們來看我們來看一下今年的煤酸費你的公務預算是變62那我已經跟市長確認過了最後呢你們是減少6好"},{"start":4239.654,"end":4251.818,"text":"有沒有大砍 你在這邊當立法委員的時候是111年喔許民村編的是49萬所以今年你62減6 你還比許民村多然後你現在說 我被大砍了請大那你覺得說 你覺得許民村做得很差 他錢不夠他後來 他只有編49萬 你那個時候也覺得OK你那個時候並沒有覺得許民村拿這49萬少"},{"start":4266.983,"end":4288.898,"text":"再來你明明就知道大部分的沒宣費就在救安基金裡面你今年救安基金編了兩億多喔你編了兩億多喔那你知道自己為什麼被剪裂其實是因為三個黨的委員當時都有諸多批評每個人都輪流發言那我先剪一小段讓你回憶一下你當時呢聽完三個黨"},{"start":4291.46,"end":4300.73,"text":"藍綠白所有委員的意見你說對你會深刻檢討你講出為什麼媒體宣傳救安基金這一塊做得不好你要如何檢討最後你是謝謝大家簡列我們是並案簡列一千萬元"},{"start":4305.936,"end":4328.343,"text":"劳动部近年来多次以开口庆约来办理这些煤轩的采购啊等等行销案所以这次你们大幅的增加4000多万那人民当然觉得必须要严格的监督并且是限制型的招标只有取三家厂商标从2022年到2024年看都是民事年代还有三立得标金额介于3500万至4200万之间这个未来您的这个分配我们都会严格在审视好吗"},{"start":4328.783,"end":4351.4,"text":"我可以简单说明大家很关心开口契约的问题其实有大部里面以后在12月的时候我们就对开口契约的试用做出了检讨所以接下来比方说一些活动或者是影片我们尽量的因为过去其实出问题的部分就是把这个活动跟影片用在开口契约里面所以其实当时我就把这些相关的标案做了检讨未来其实这些活动或者是影片我们尽量的不用开口契约的方式来去进行该用采购法"},{"start":4353.122,"end":4363.132,"text":"我們就用採購法招標而不用公開開口契約所以我們對於公開契約的適用範圍做出了一些相關的限制那這部分其實已經正在做了所以這個結論是服務費用媒體政策及業務宣導費減略一千萬"},{"start":4371.02,"end":4394.162,"text":"當時召委是宣布並藍綠白委員的案最後並檢列一千萬你也講到說你有很多做得不足的地方你要檢討你要檢討結果你現在是在這個IG上哭窮說我被大砍了請大家一定要追蹤你被大砍你被大砍以前IG也成效非常的差這是第一點第二點"},{"start":4395.643,"end":4409.171,"text":"兩億多你經過自己的檢討你謝謝大家好最後病案所有委員的病案檢列一千萬你說謝謝你也會再檢討然後事情就沒辦法做以前許民村拿49萬的時候也沒哭窮你也覺得他做得好棒棒這還是你審的呢"},{"start":4410.356,"end":4429.426,"text":"跟委員說明到現在為止去年我12月來到部裡的時候我要再說一次我們確實對於開口契約的適用就做出了檢討甚至我們就把當時的標案給停下來了到目前為止勞動部是沒有開口契約的標案的"},{"start":4429.986,"end":4445.059,"text":"所以剛剛在講的這些相關的社群媒體的製作坦白說都是這段時間我們公務同仁非常非常辛苦做的東西我跟你說你應該要把什麼東西列上來我們再來看一下"},{"start":4446.44,"end":4449.884,"text":"這是您以前當立法委員的時候所立的規矩來我們必須要把辦理政策宣導相關廣告執行情形每一個月更新給人民看放到網站上去"},{"start":4466.124,"end":4494.201,"text":"好 你是11月上任啊2024年12月以前喔每一筆清清楚楚的都在上面但是2025年11月以後就沒有囉我給你看一下113年12月以前我還可以我們全民都還可以看得到你用救安基金的錢而且救安基金的錢早就可以用啦連你們勞發署都說早就已經開始用啦那為什麼你們還沒有把它放上網站呢根文說明"},{"start":4495.431,"end":4517.954,"text":"剛剛的那個是我們在去年12月31號以後我們就沒有開口契約的廣宣計劃了我現在在講你沒有更新你的媒體政策及業務宣導因為去年12月以前是有開口契約的廣宣計劃但是12月之後就沒有了"},{"start":4518.362,"end":4524.81,"text":"我跟你說你2020年12月以前不管是基金啊 勞保局啊 本部啊都馬通通會寫上去"},{"start":4526.28,"end":4548.327,"text":"跟委員說我們在12月之後就沒有開口契約的 沒宣計畫了我希望你們還是可以定期去更新這是我給你看一下衛福部的這是衛生福利部的這是衛生福利部他今年1到3月他好好的告訴人民說他的政策及業務宣導執行情況再來這個是再來還有環境部的"},{"start":4556.947,"end":4559.521,"text":"環境部的也把它全部列上去列了非常的多"},{"start":4562.914,"end":4587.047,"text":"所以你沒有因為沒有開口契約所以你沒有我們是真的很認真的檢討開口契約的試用所以我該檢討的部分我們就檢討所以現在就是沒有的所以我只是想說剛剛其實去講很多的成效其實真的這些目前的社群的經營都是我們的公務同仁自己去分工是非常非常辛苦在進行這件事情的我有看你們的素材我覺得非常用心"},{"start":4589.068,"end":4608.398,"text":"所以我開宗明義就說希望您第一希望您利用您的專長也可以發揮到華文部上嘛這是您的專長之一啊第二我希望您行政中立嘛是對啊很合理嘛是當然因為許民村拿的錢比你少很多啊好第三我也希望你們可以讓他公開透明你可以讓他公開透明嘛委員這個經費的比較不是這樣比的"},{"start":4615.984,"end":4637.335,"text":"媒宣經費的比較不是我真的說媒宣經費比較不是這樣比過去真的部裡面是真的是很依賴比方說這個開口契約的部分你的救安基金等一下你的救安基金編了兩億多然後在我們全部的人都有共識之下簡列一千萬這個是事實好那簡列什麼原因什麼原因"},{"start":4639.176,"end":4663.347,"text":"我們也都在這邊公開討論已經講完了其實我們也都講完了我們也只希望你好好你的我們等一下就把這張再還給你好嗎我們現在只是希望把事情做好那希望公開透明因為大家覺得說你沒有跟許明春把錢要回來要回來還要用公務"},{"start":4664.247,"end":4679.505,"text":"公務預算去支應最後你寫了一個申付報告說這是為了提升勞工的福祉所辦的演唱會還有剪的影片大家人民都已經覺得看不太下去了因為你的申付理由你的申付理由跟你這邊對我們做一個檢討"},{"start":4682.068,"end":4711.528,"text":"根本搭不起來最近很多勞工團體來拜訪我就播了這幾個影片給他們看啊我說勞動部部長說現在這個活動是為了提升勞工的福祉請問你們看完這個演唱會看完這個影片你們有覺得自己福祉被提升了嗎你到底是有做問卷調查你是哪邊看出他們福祉有被提升沒有勞工你這個話這個深附理由如果在勞動部的網站或是IG貼出來說我當初許民村辦的這個演唱會是有提升勞工福祉"},{"start":4712.569,"end":4719.667,"text":"我看下面有幾個人會回啊可以讓我時間你剛才說的讓我先做說明嗎第一個"},{"start":4721.892,"end":4749.369,"text":"正是因為包括審計也包括立法院希望我們救安基金的錢不應該在這個擴大使用的範圍就是變成是我們是希望在這個發展署下面相關的計劃來去做使用所以我們才覺得我今天不我接下來就是不希望再用救安基金的錢來做部裡面可能跟救安沒有相關事情的沒宣的使用"},{"start":4750.566,"end":4757.523,"text":"所以目前部裡面相關的這些煤圈的計畫是沒有開口契約的"},{"start":4758.669,"end":4786.489,"text":"所以這不是說拿著說你就按基因這邊很多錢如果大家同樣說就按基因很多錢我這邊就可以用的話那這就回到過去了這就回到過去大家批評的狀況了主席這是我的時間然後很多人關心這題所以我要再把它問完那等一下我們拿我們的資料再給你最後呢這個是您非常在乎的也是您常常質詢的甚至之前質詢的時候說應該要修法我也不用引用啦因為"},{"start":4787.35,"end":4811.144,"text":"其實我本來希望劉建國早晚有在台上但是他今年就有提案指出說你的這個事辦計劃沒有提供雇主誘因也沒有強制要求雇主執行導致利益良善的政策流於形式建議簡列及凍結各100萬預算但勞動部改善問題後書面報告得以動之林淑芬委員也在這邊講到說當初勞動部不願意聽取民意一意孤行讓彈性運價成為一個註定失敗的事辦計劃所以幾十萬家中小企業"},{"start":4816.627,"end":4840.861,"text":"只有89個單位參加 申請人數還只有182人這個不知道您會提出報告給劉建國召委嗎會啊 其實我想關於彈性留庭的做法上面我們其實現在一直在朝向往更彈性的做法上面去做研擬但確實我們現在也是在考慮包括比方說財務上面的限制"},{"start":4842.622,"end":4852.631,"text":"那因為這裡面涉及到比方說Joba基金的運用財務性的限制也包括我們要怎麼去降低可能雇主會因為彈性運流停所以排班上面的挑戰所以在這幾個考慮點之內現在我們還是持續在研擬方案在做討論中"},{"start":4858.335,"end":4886.696,"text":"這邊是之前也蠻多人提供給您的就是不是公部門先來做表率因為公部門開始做做的成效好就可以說服私部門甚至給私部門誘因來參與這樣子的事辦計畫但是這個問題我們已經問了好多次了到至今呢業管都說一直在做意見上的收集還有統整我只是想單純的問一下請問您現在找了公部門的哪些機關已經有做了一些意見上的統整我們只是問一下進度而已"},{"start":4888.523,"end":4912.919,"text":"呃我們現在其實的方向不一定是以公部門私部門這樣去分啦其實甚至是如果要去進行的話其實不一定是分公部門私部門所以我們等一下可以跟你邀到一個書面資料你已經找誰做了溝通跟統整呃我們現在我們我們其實現在跟包括不跟產業界當然在做一些討論然後跟勞工團體跟相關人就在做一些討論是那等一下再請你提供會議記錄謝謝啊謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":4917.104,"end":4937.695,"text":"好 謝謝陳青偉委員的發言也謝謝部長回應下一位我們請蘇青偉發言好 謝謝 謝謝主席我請部長跟資安署好 請部長跟林署長"},{"start":4943.337,"end":4967.62,"text":"所以今天排這個題目真的是很棒大家都很關心我們的勞工朋友那我就直接切入主題啦我要詢問你公使啦我們現在記者不管是文字記者不管是電子報的記者不管是攝影大家都很辛苦尤其在作業這個"},{"start":4971.3,"end":4986.295,"text":"Focus 焦點新聞的時候,就在那邊日以繼夜啊都要幾枚,幾枝都要排班,幾枝都要借,一枝要喝涼的,一枝要吃燒的但是就是在那裡等幾枚齁,請問這工時是怎麼省啊?"},{"start":4991.138,"end":5018.407,"text":"報告委員,那有關工作時間的部分的話,它包括實際從事工作以及待命的時間,它都是屬於如果它有被受到僱主的拘束,必須要在那邊待命提供勞務的時間,也就是工作時間?僱主限制,所以那個僱主應該是電視台,或者是報社,是不是?或製作公司"},{"start":5021.69,"end":5027.375,"text":"那演員啊 一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個"},{"start":5041.607,"end":5064.001,"text":"演員跟其他的工作人員的話可能有一點差異因為演員的話他可能本身是一個自營作業的一個情況他是一個專業的人員他透過他的經紀人員跟製作單位簽訂了這樣的一個委任的相關契約所以不太一樣所以這個公使是兩方約定"},{"start":5065.785,"end":5087.396,"text":"兩邊約定就好了還是用承攬企業如果出事的話是要找誰負責這個部分的話演員通常會自己預約的狀況像這個那麼高的地方在攝影又塞進來那是最聽到的你們這一塊有沒有我覺得最容易出事的在這裡還有再來是司機"},{"start":5092.83,"end":5107.094,"text":"遊覽車的司機,像我這樣在動彎,在煞車,在遊覽啦欸,那個司機,大家都什麼時候算選辦時間,什麼時候沒算選辦時間有的說叫你遊覽車要請兩個司機,這司機怎麼算?說手放方向盤,叫做在選辦啊,離開,沒方向盤,車頂沒摸的人,這樣就算休息啊,車頂只有一個人"},{"start":5119.864,"end":5127.368,"text":"就剩,就剩,就剩的上班時間所以都把你們都逛逛來,阿婆要逛到五碗,她也要逛逛來,她說你人不離開,我就車就熄火,我就可以離開方向盤這個都是問題,一再的發生糾紛,這個怎麼辦"},{"start":5139.449,"end":5155.907,"text":"報告委員,那有關遊覽車的這個狀況,那其實我們職安署也有訂定了一個相關遊覽車的檢查的一個專門的一個檢查的見識的方法那屬於工作時間的部分,他可以把它見識出來"},{"start":5156.488,"end":5177.424,"text":"那如果是休息時間,那也有不同的態樣有的到一個定點,乘客去遊玩,那個時間就會進到勞工的休息時間所以有不同的態樣,那這個相關的檢查要點其實都有去釐清因為現在國民旅遊很多,幾乎每天都會發生,每天就在發生每天像我從東港出發,從屏東出發,路邊就停"},{"start":5182.967,"end":5201.836,"text":"就停車,阿婆阿拉什麼的就去,就出發啦都五六點,六七點就在集合啊在附近到沿岸九點、十點就回來我認為那手機也是很辛苦的,阿也一個手機所以這個都要很注意啦,因為我們勞工大家都很辛苦"},{"start":5202.858,"end":5211.361,"text":"要補充,如果出事,誰也要負責,這都像在拍專輯的,那都是公司嘛公司發到就發到就到,金門這張照片要靠沒辦法,像在攝影,塞在上面會發生意外"},{"start":5223.566,"end":5249.609,"text":"這個都是問題啊,這一塊是最...一般大公司、大行你不用擔心他啦他一定照顧你,台積電根本照顧不來台積電要點什麼幫你,你沒有跟他聊天他連你起床都要起床,每天要講時大的公司,大的上市、上櫃公司或者是法人公司根本不用你去擔心,最要擔心的就是這個"},{"start":5251.071,"end":5275.951,"text":"看不到,在腳握,他們每天,像我們記者朋友,我每次看到他們在那邊惱火啊,情緒洪漠,在那邊在等什麼?要Catch Play,這樣而已嘛,對不對?所以這個都很重要,不然你,你是,你勞工很辛苦,或是說你是,這一塊要很注意,非常重要,我覺得勞動節要注意的就是這一塊,我跟你講"},{"start":5277.287,"end":5300.82,"text":"是我想剛剛委員其實提醒的包括我們的這個演藝人員尤其是藝術表演的工作者就表演工作者部分目前其實我們跟文化部那針對大家其實這些公使是不是要更進一步的這個的規範包括植栽的部分其實我們現在跟文化部有建立這個跨部會的討論然後真的這部分在強化對好"},{"start":5301.67,"end":5315.422,"text":"那再來就是,我要讓你講一個,美國現在川普的,差不多,川普的就是一人泡麵,叫全世界都對他吃藥我做醫生就聽,幹,他都叫我們吃藥,他自己也不想要吃,一直都吃漢堡,喝可樂,我們都吃藥"},{"start":5322.979,"end":5339.789,"text":"我們怎麼笑的好 還笑的就是馬斯克 馬斯克馬斯克還要提升多少錢 還要提升五千的美金還要去裁員 還要裁27萬個聯邦的員工真的裁了10萬人喔結果呢 他可以省1500億美金"},{"start":5350.365,"end":5360.594,"text":"結果現在BBC啊什麼就出來K他說,這人要把他遣散,要把他離職,要把他丟退,開一千三百多個美金。現在那天開沒人做,現在還在找新的員工去買。不定,這有效嗎?這要吃藥嗎?"},{"start":5375.014,"end":5398.325,"text":"你是醫生喔我不太適合去評論其他國家的政治人物這樣的問題像這種這樣大量解雇大量我們有可能做這種事情當然你在台灣的政治跟行政的環境我們確實不太可能做這樣的事情所以no comment"},{"start":5402.219,"end":5427.508,"text":"我們不太方便評論其他國家的總統或政治人物好那最後一個問題這個災保法災保法災害保護法這變成法外的孤兒了那這個是這個RCA的問題現在尾巴還沒有收這個我在第八屆的時候就有說要處理了現在處理到最後是怎麼樣很多這種"},{"start":5432.358,"end":5433.061,"text":"有沒有,現在到"},{"start":5437.476,"end":5464.297,"text":"謝謝委員 我們長期跟法服基金會有協助他們訴訟有提供律師費 那他們要去抵押扣押財產需要擔保 我們勞動部也出去可以擔保一億的證明後續都是由律師團跟他們的自救會一起在訴訟當中有第一批的人已經贏了 後面還有第二批的人還在繼續訴訟"},{"start":5466.11,"end":5482.9,"text":"所以大部分都解決了?他們有分好幾批,現在主要是要扣他的財產扣誰的財產?阿溪的阿溪還有這間公司嗎?在國外的財產你可以去扣國外財產?他們在找有智修會他們在找"},{"start":5487.103,"end":5512.124,"text":"到國外打官司很貴捏請一個律師要七八百萬台幣捏一兩千萬都有捏所以有在追蹤嗎我想這個案子我們有在做後續的因為這種這個是好久了捏所以這個要諸如此類的勞動部要我一直在講就是說這個比較弱勢的家"},{"start":5516.098,"end":5520.124,"text":"這要時間派空姐,這要五六天就是你要照顧的不然你真的做得好,你就是好的不然啦那老闆說什麼,那你不用管啦"},{"start":5527.526,"end":5552.106,"text":"那些小小的小孩子這樣甩就甩了,他們就很認真這樣啦跟便宜一樣嘛對不對最重要就是偏遠地區的醫療你要提升嘛你從那個牡丹鄉現在要打那個人造衛星的地方那個地方蓄海有一個病人生病要到恆春到東港96分鐘到不了"},{"start":5552.927,"end":5576.833,"text":"在台北市六分鐘可以做檢驗就到你想要的適當的醫療院所然後台北市的人他每一年的醫療費用我們是九千多億嘛平均兩千三百萬人一個人要四萬塊的一個人頭上就capitation就四萬塊在屏東在牡丹他們才要花兩萬幾塊而已他們台北市的人都花六萬幾塊這樣有辦法賺錢"},{"start":5581.661,"end":5603.095,"text":"你做執政者就是要把那裡照顧,要把那裡扭起來,那裡如果有平權,你就成功啦,其他都不可以,都這樣啦都會去,大家也去到水洋洋,那裡就你管,我去的人經濟又強,又有保險,什麼都有,來都要用最好的那邊的病人來都是要用健保金用保"},{"start":5606.513,"end":5621.379,"text":"反正站著又叫我拔白包反正站著沒人處理重疑叫我丟到外面我天天在做這種事情所以是不一樣的樣態所以每天這樣來來回回我的感觸都很深所以柏定你也算機長站著要照顧自己好不好謝謝委員的建議跟提醒 謝謝好 謝謝蘇慶文委員醫療專業的發言也謝謝部長的答詢下一位我們請邱智英委員發言"},{"start":5643.61,"end":5662.93,"text":"主席好,我們請洪部長請洪部長主委好部長好部長我請問一下我們今天內政委員會正在協商制定紀念日及節日實施條例的草案,您支持嗎?這個勞動節放假的話"},{"start":5666.262,"end":5692.274,"text":"蛤 哪一個勞動節 勞動節放假五一嘛對我想現在五一其實你個人支持嗎呃 你應該指的因為五一勞工現在其實已經放假對 我知道指的應該是五一統一放吧對對對那五一統一放我想行政院其實已經有說了我們目標在下個年度希望就能夠來實施這個五一的統一放所以你也是支持嗎當然那我再接一下我們台大剛剛我看陳昭之委員也有問這一題啦就是說"},{"start":5696.276,"end":5713.222,"text":"他們進行勞動節的出勤意願他們叫員工來填單嘛那出勤表上原則上都是要上班根本看不到要補休還是要加班對不對就根本就沒有一個休假的一個問卷你覺得這個在勞動部的標準裡面算是合理的嗎"},{"start":5715.361,"end":5743.498,"text":"應該說其實我們有看了這個相關的書件書單那確實目前看如果按照這個書單來看的話他可能比較沒有辦法充分的讓老公朋友來表達他們的想法跟意願那部長那這個部分請你們再多加的注意好不好我們已經在4月28號已經有發函了然後就是發函給台北市政府那希望台北市政府真的這部分是應該去把它們理清楚然後給予相關的檢查好的"},{"start":5744.278,"end":5771.177,"text":"那我再請教部長我們總統臺院長在4月22號開了綠燈要你們開始送解凍案那按照部長您在社群發的文我們看到我們勞動部還有所屬機關在4月23日下午2點50分到下午6點01分這短短191分鐘總共發出了75件的解凍的電子文件那平均不到3分鐘就有一份解凍報告"},{"start":5772.378,"end":5789.33,"text":"那我就很納悶這有三個可能第一個可能也就是我認為最有可能就是說其實這些早就寫好了只是放著讓我們這一些你們這個政治議題的謠言素材都能夠累積差不多再送但是後來"},{"start":5791.172,"end":5817.489,"text":"這個因為最近被公務人員踢爆發現輿論扛不住了 昨天早上才開綠燈但是啦 你們不是先例文化部之前就有傳出內部的訊息很明確的就是先寫好壓著啦如果是這個那當然也就說明一件事情就是我們政府以達到政治目的為首要的目的說在乎人民的權益根本就把它放在一邊而已嘛"},{"start":5818.53,"end":5838.798,"text":"但這是第一個可能那另外一個可能就是公務員加班趕件配合如果是這個我就要請教部長這個有沒有壓榨公務人員的這個嫌疑我問你再回答啦那最後一個就是濫魚充數濫血先訂位再說並向委員會施壓意思說解凍案我已經送了"},{"start":5839.358,"end":5863.118,"text":"那報告這個內容如果委員覺得不行我們就開始要造謠就是說我們立委在阻擋這個解凍案如果是這樣的話我跟部長講就你們算盤還是打錯了那解凍案我們還是會專業的立委我們還是會照程序來審這個來審核啦那部長你覺得是哪一個好"},{"start":5864.059,"end":5892.981,"text":"跟邱委員說明實際的狀況都跟你剛剛講的三種情況是不同的那是什麼其實勞動部歷年來我們一直都是採用一案一文的方式來辦理解凍程序而且過去其實我們都是要求本部和相關的所屬的解凍案會在同一個日期裡面發文所以過去也都是大家同一天發文就是等到一聲令下沒有命令就不會發對吧"},{"start":5893.761,"end":5909.28,"text":"我跟委員說明過去就是要同一天發文那同一天發文的原因有幾個第一個是因為避免漏案的狀況第二個也希望能夠爭取跟確保到時候在立法院的時候是同一個時間來做審查因為你如果這個A案"},{"start":5909.941,"end":5937.021,"text":"一個月前發B案幾個月這個幾個後發其實零零散散的發很有可能到時候在立院的審查是分開的所以是希望到時候在立法院是這個同一時間來安排審查所以過去就是來要求是同一個日期的發文所以今年這個解凍計畫的發文的方式其實跟往年都是相同的第二個其實今年我想我也知道因為今年的預算的審查波折比較多"},{"start":5937.541,"end":5964.835,"text":"所以其實總統是到3月21號的時候才公布這個總預算那我們其實發文的時間大概在4月20幾號其實中間大概一個月左右的時間我想這個時間時程應該屬於正常的範圍我們並沒有拖延所以回到剛剛委員說的幾種狀況我跟委員說明我們其實沒有我們沒有刻意要壓人甚至政治上的盤算你不要再講了啦因為我們也聽懂了我的意思是說"},{"start":5966.396,"end":5982.653,"text":"我知道我的意思是說我希望不要有太多的政治的因素在裡面沒有不要太多政治的操作在裡面但是我最不希望的就是看到你們這個壓榨公務人員或亂寫報告沒有這個事情那就下一題那112年的時候勞工的產檢價還有賠產價"},{"start":5986.517,"end":5995.744,"text":"還有賠產減價預算編不夠只編了4200萬元左右當年度實際申請的7178萬裡面大概少了3000萬左右當時發現4200萬可能在7月就會用完但是當時預算是沒有編購的卻沒有影響112年新手爸媽的權益申請還是非常的順利部長知道112年勞動部是怎麼做的嗎"},{"start":6013.33,"end":6035.423,"text":"當時就知道是當時是有跟舊寶做這個周轉但是這並不是一個常態的做法並不是過去有過這樣的周轉的案例未來就是想怎麼刪怎麼砍都沒有都是OK並不是這個狀況甚至那時候立法院也請我們檢討當時周轉的狀況所以周轉我們不能視為一個常態的正常的做法"},{"start":6037.127,"end":6065.804,"text":"對 沒有出來 然後呢所以我們才認為並不是過去有發生過周轉所以現在怎麼刪怎麼動都是OK的 並不是這樣所以你們現在 你現在的意思就是說我們現在編的預算是想希望一次編購然後一次不要有不足的部分不要去跟其他的預算科目來借錢這樣的意思嗎預算的編類當然都是希望能夠編購很少會有希望預算編不夠的"},{"start":6067.486,"end":6078.273,"text":"或刻意變不夠啊對啊 112年就不夠啦對 當年是有那個狀況所以後來其實用周轉可是這個周轉其實包括立法院的預算中心也叫我們要檢討"},{"start":6079.793,"end":6107.254,"text":"也叫我們要檢討所以我們不把因為可以周轉所以我預算想怎麼編就怎麼編想怎麼刪就怎麼刪想怎麼動就怎麼動並不是這樣子的就算過去有過這樣子的做法可是那個並不是該設定為的常態正常的常態所以我希望就是說你們一次把這個該用的錢因為你們的基礎是應該是以去年的這個金額來做一個衡量嘛對不對那我在想這個補助總共七天"},{"start":6108.095,"end":6133.884,"text":"第一天到第五天的這個薪資是我們僱主付的嘛然後第六第七是跟我們勞動部補助來申請那僱主當然是要先墊付對不對然後墊付完了之後才跟來請款然後原則上七天的錢僱主要給完新手爸媽以後才能夠跟勞動部來請款所以新手爸媽的錢這個僱主早就付了剩下就是應該是僱主跟我們勞動部的關係嘛"},{"start":6136.058,"end":6153.567,"text":"對不對 是勞動部跟僱主的事情因為僱主已經先出了嘛跟委員說明這個不能這樣看因為僱主也是先知道第六天跟第七天勞動部會給予補助所以如果第六天跟第七天勞動部的薪資補助的錢卡住的話也很有可能會影響僱主"},{"start":6156.367,"end":6174.002,"text":"讓勞工去做產檢架或賠算檢架的意願所以這是聯動的關係並不是說他是來他會先付然後這邊勞工跟僱主之間的關係並不是這樣子看的他是先 僱主是先出嘛你講的意思當然是說你希望說這筆錢這筆預算都是放這裡"},{"start":6176.364,"end":6203.613,"text":"錢是夠的嘛對不對你不希望說不夠的時候那我們在之前我們講到說我們今年編了八千九千八千五百四十萬嘛對不對然後你們把九千七百一十四萬的那個整個預算是九千七百一十四萬嘛刪了八百萬不是我們刪的是我不是說你刪的對我沒有出來我是我們刪的沒錯然後總共"},{"start":6205.239,"end":6214.242,"text":"剪下來的話我們大概還有七千多萬嘛對不對剪下來是不是還有八千多萬"},{"start":6224.338,"end":6248.785,"text":"七千七百四十萬跟委員說明原本九千多萬裡面有部分是剛才說的薪資補貼對 其他的部分沒錯那其他部署其實我們也要辦理很多性評你現在是把九千七百一十四萬然後三個八百萬放在統一欄裡面嘛那這個不管不是 還有包括兩千萬的凍結啊對 你都是放在統一欄嘛 對不對整個項目是九千多萬對"},{"start":6253.888,"end":6278.383,"text":"那刪了八百萬動了兩千多萬這加起來就已經接近大概兩千七百多萬兩千八百萬還有大概七千萬左右所以這個扣掉的影響其實都超過原本我們編列八千多萬但是你產檢價相關的你凍結不能這樣算啊對不對因為你一定要執行到他當初我跟你講他為什麼會跟你凍結你知道嗎為什麼會凍結你知道嗎"},{"start":6283.089,"end":6304.46,"text":"這個我還可以再提醒對當初就是我幫你複習一下就是為什麼被凍結20%原因就是因為近五年違反勞基法的案件有3.5萬件勞動部沒有善盡監督的責任那裡面特別提出來就是說高工時的問題僱主延長勞工工時但是沒有"},{"start":6305.721,"end":6318.138,"text":"報復加班費再來就是職場性騷擾防範效果不彰長期都有變預算但是問題一堆他們是希望你們把這事情做好所以才會去凍結預算凍結不等於刪除你懂嗎凍結不等於刪除"},{"start":6320.822,"end":6335.319,"text":"但是還是會在預算的執行上面產生的不確定性他只是不確定其實還是會有不確定性在以前我們以往的慣例裡面所有有凍結的預算如果都是照你這種邏輯的話那大家都不用做事"},{"start":6335.799,"end":6352.366,"text":"如果凍結就一定可以用的話我想從貴院的角度來說凍結就不用凍結凍結當然是在預算執行上面產生不確定性解凍的條件有好幾種希望你提出報告或者是說你已經執行到幾趴之後我們再來提凍結"},{"start":6353.987,"end":6368.996,"text":"對不對 凍結是事實凍結會對預算的執行產生不確定性也是事實我沒有講說它不是事實我現在講的是事實沒錯但是如果以往的我們的預算案所有的預算案的凍結案來講是不是因為你執行"},{"start":6370.217,"end":6389.124,"text":"的效果跟沒有達到預期的效果或者是說我們希望我們這個單位再提出新的一個辦法來改進這些你只要提報告出來一般都會解凍本人這個案子裡面他的解凍結的理由坦白說他講的也不是產檢架跟賠產檢架的執行"},{"start":6391.65,"end":6407.692,"text":"他講的是更其他的勞基法其他的事情這也是讓我們覺得困惑的事情說如果是我們在產檢架、賠產檢架過去有執行不妥當的地方那你在這個案子裡面做出指教跟批評要我們把產檢架跟賠產檢架的執行做得更好"},{"start":6408.272,"end":6426.051,"text":"那這個當然我們會來接受因為產檢架、賠產檢架之間有問題可是你拉了一個別的事情來凍結產檢架跟賠產檢架讓新手的爸媽得到幫助的機會可能產生很多不確定性那你 這個案子你提解凍了沒有我們都提了 我們都送了好 那我們到時候再來審啦謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":6432.281,"end":6452.747,"text":"好 委員會也在這邊做宣告我們等王正旭委員宣達結束之後才休息接下來請王育敏委員來做宣達謝謝主席 我們是不是有請洪部長來 請部長"},{"start":6461.523,"end":6481.592,"text":"你們在去年113年的時候提出營造業最弱打擊年但是你們原本設定的目標是死亡人數控制在68人但實質上最弱致死的人數高達85人超出你們原來設定目標的25%"},{"start":6484.613,"end":6512.681,"text":"針對這件事情你們有沒有好好的檢討到底你們設定了打幾年結果越打幾死亡人數反而不降反升這個代表你們在執行過程其實有很多需要檢討的地方沒有到位另外一個我也讓你看一下我們跟日韓比較起來你看到我們的曲線圖台灣我們都在維持一個營造業最弱致死的比例都是一個高峰"},{"start":6513.641,"end":6535.627,"text":"都是維持在六成七左右都沒有下降但是我們鄰近的你看看像這個日本跟南韓南韓本來在2019年跟我們一樣是高峰但是人家有效的下降下來了那日本呢其實他們的公安做的比我們好他都維持在三成多到四成"},{"start":6535.967,"end":6560.677,"text":"新加坡表現更好新加坡的這個罪惡致死呢他一直都維持在不到三成這樣子一個情況就是有效的控制那臺灣我們這幾年其實都沒有明顯的一個改善反而有微幅的增加去年還增加了25%這代表我們在各項的防災的落實上面其實是做得不夠的你們的檢討是什麼"},{"start":6562.199,"end":6578.975,"text":"委員我先跟委員報告第一個確實我們去年並沒有達到68人的目標但是其實去年並不是增加還是有減少只是有稍微下降但是確實沒有達到目標跟目標比較起來就是超出25%沒有達到目標這件事情我們就該檢討"},{"start":6582.478,"end":6608.793,"text":"那就像剛剛委員說的其實我們也參考像新加坡或幾個國家他們的做法我們確實看到比方說在新加坡他們業主必須在這個公安事件裡面的責任是有很強要被苛責的那我們也看到了這些相關的狀況包括我們的工地的文化包括我們工地管理的狀況包括我們其實很多這營建業的工地它其實那個層層轉包的狀況其實很多責任到時候在分包的過程裡面"},{"start":6609.393,"end":6629.731,"text":"其實就被切割甚至會有一點支離破碎的情況所以這一次我們提出治安法的修法其實也是在處理第一個讓業主是可以被究責的業主要做高包括其實很多新加坡大家都拿新加坡的案例來說他可能要去做很多的風險分析甚至要提撥一定的經費來做治安位的使用"},{"start":6630.672,"end":6648.504,"text":"在使用那第二個是針對這些層層轉包的狀況我們也在這次責任法修法裡面來要求你要有一個包商之間的在這個這個相關統合管理的這樣子的責任不會在層層轉包的過程裡面其實到處切割結果最後就發生讓大家覺得很"},{"start":6649.484,"end":6663.921,"text":"這個不幸的事件或者是責任難以追究的狀況你講的這兩項我通通都同意但是我要提醒勞動部的是那別忘了政府的角色在哪裡業者當然有角色但是我們看看我在去年其實就質詢日本的做法他的這個他在工地裡面他將這一個可視化"},{"start":6670.527,"end":6697.601,"text":"減災的這個工程他其實做得非常的徹底事實上你們去年在政府的角色你們說你們要去推動這個包括安全看的見風險看的見就是可視化的減災工程要去輔導要去推動但是你看你們執行下來的這個數字今天當然也有內政部在我不覺得完全只是勞動部的責任內政部作為這個營建單位的主管機關我覺得這件事情你們並沒有推到底"},{"start":6698.081,"end":6723.963,"text":"就是我記得我去年質詢的時候我說日本做得很好你說我們也有我們有打幾年然後我們要去推動結果你們執行下來目前看起來你們的這個就是找了幾個示範的工地那真正的這個申請通過數這個佔整個的比例來看的話他的比例還是低的你們真的有權利在推動嗎今天那個內政部的代表是誰副總工程師嗎"},{"start":6725.91,"end":6744.284,"text":"蘇副總工程師是不是也應該一起在這件事情我也不覺得完全只是勞動部的責任像這個推動工地的安全這個是完全是可視化減災工程我覺得他可以收到立即性效果的那這個部分你們到底推的有沒有好好的推動"},{"start":6745.184,"end":6760.565,"text":"內政部有在協助勞動部這個部分嗎你們做了什麼是那謝謝委員那主要啦吼那營造業分成就是公共工程跟民間工程是那公共工程的這一塊啦吼那基本上"},{"start":6761.165,"end":6786.92,"text":"那有我們的所謂政府採購法還有相關的這個職安法這些來來律定那所以我想我們公共工程的這個工程主辦機關在職安的這一塊大概都非常的重視啦所以在所以相對的在民間工程的這一塊現在可能是我們還要去努力的目標啦那所以我們在這一個"},{"start":6790.219,"end":6799.868,"text":"你們在可視化減災工程這個項目裡面包括這個安全看得見 風險看得見這整個預防墜落措施你們協助了什麼內政部協助了什麼"},{"start":6802.482,"end":6820.755,"text":"這個部分我們有四份工地在做教育訓練的推廣那目前就是說有比較優良的廠商我們目前會後續都會做相關的觀摩但你們的次數看起來都很少這相較於現在這麼多的工地來講比例很少"},{"start":6821.956,"end":6835.106,"text":"你們是不是應該要想辦法跟各個營建公會還有就是找業者大家怎麼樣透過一個比較大的規模的實施而且去要求逐步去要求事實上你們這些示範我個人覺得很好就是說這個視覺化裡面就"},{"start":6837.667,"end":6857.66,"text":"產生了一個很好的警示的效果這個是可以提醒這個所有的勞工他在這個工地現場就是那個透過視覺上去做提醒這個也是日本人家做得很好所以他們在這個最弱的公安比例比我們更低但是我覺得台灣我們不要都只做半套就是說感覺人家很好然後呼了一個口號說最弱打幾年"},{"start":6859.401,"end":6880.94,"text":"然後呢今年推動的力道有要更大嗎有要強化嗎這個部分在今天的報告坦白講我都沒有看到最弱打擊年這幾個字也已經消失了所以不要只是做半套喔這個去年喊一個口號有一個宣示結果今年又沒有繼續延續了今年也要繼續做嗎內政部跟勞動部也要繼續做嗎也要擴大推廣嗎我們後續會積極的合作"},{"start":6886.985,"end":6915.463,"text":"來 部長回答 那這部請先回跟委員說明 第一個是我確實覺得怎麼樣讓這些該做的或對的事情要做得更到位然後包括案例更多 滲透率更高我覺得這部分我們願意來檢討參考其實委員的一些提醒來檢討但是就我們目前看到是說可能數字上面我們會再提供給委員有更新的數據 那你們可以直接告訴大家"},{"start":6916.243,"end":6934.266,"text":"再提供給委員可是我不會去說我們這已經做到很到位了或者我不會這樣去說所以我們還是願意來跟相關的其他的國家的經驗做更徹底的學習因為這一個其實為什麼那麼重要因為每一個墜落事件很多大概就是死亡"},{"start":6934.747,"end":6952.244,"text":"不是重傷就是死亡那個對一個整個家庭的衝擊其實是非常大的所以我希望這一塊你們要更用心另外一個我要問你們的就是你們職業安全訓練人數為什麼不升反降退回三年前的數字你可以看到有沒有接受職業訓練對於防災來講它還是產生一定的效果的那為什麼你們反而你們的量能是下降的呢"},{"start":6957.697,"end":6972.43,"text":"去年是發生什麼事為什麼整體的數字反而無論是在這個各行業的安全衛生訓練總人數或是主管的部分都是呈現下降的趨勢跟委員報告其實整體的安全衛生教育訓練並沒有下降"},{"start":6974.372,"end":6992.045,"text":"那這個數字有誤嗎還是你們沒有更新對 跟委員報告現在安全衛生教育的職類非常多它有將近60個職類那可能委員看到的是目前直到營造作業主管它是有上下在浮動依照這個需求所以你們沒有擴大嗎我的意思就是說如果你們是營建業墜落打幾年的話你們所有的包括"},{"start":6995.968,"end":7010.624,"text":"工地現場的安全這個應該要擴大你們的職業安全訓練的人數也應該是要擴大但是看起來並沒有這樣的一個趨勢我希望你們可以檢討另外一個就是有關於外籍移工職災人數他其實在營建業裡面也呈現這個人數"},{"start":7015.149,"end":7037.703,"text":"是增加的一個情況這樣的一個趨勢喔那這個部分呢你們現在有推一個這個移工的職安卡所以在這個營建業裡面我要問的是說你們營建業裡面的外籍移工他取得職安卡的比例是不是在營建業裡面因為他高風險他們是不是都有取得職安卡所以才進來從事這個營建業有沒有"},{"start":7040.545,"end":7062.089,"text":"跟委員報告確實這個移工的安全衛生教育訓練是我們的重點那現在我們的台灣指南卡的部分一年到目前為止大概有20萬人受訓那移工裡面大概有站在2萬多人那營建業裡面的移工他們有沒有都拿到指南卡我們目前是跟這個很多跨部會在合作希望達到說所有的移工都要拿到台灣指南卡"},{"start":7062.591,"end":7077.207,"text":"就我掌握到的數據現在這個移工從事營建業大概超過4萬那他拿到的比例是不是大概只有2萬8所以累積才2萬8所以代表還有1萬多人他其實是沒有接受你的訓練但我覺得你們的這個"},{"start":7078.709,"end":7096.228,"text":"職安卡是好的因為你們是用多國語言讓移工可以理解的語言然後告訴他職業安全方面的知識這個對於他們保障自身的安全我覺得是很有幫助的這個部分你們是不是可以盡快怎麼樣透過其他的方式讓這一些從事高風險的營建業的移工讓他們可以得到這樣的一個職業安全的知識"},{"start":7100.728,"end":7124.853,"text":"好我們當然這部分我覺得這是一個對的方向那我們怎麼樣更加碼的來進行包括資源的投入包括加速的來檢討這部分我們會盡快的來提出一個相關的計畫來擴大我覺得保護這些外籍移工來台灣工作他們的人身安全職業風險這些給他高度的保障我覺得這個是我們該做的事好不好好謝謝"},{"start":7131.923,"end":7133.345,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請我們洪部長"},{"start":7156.241,"end":7176.921,"text":"部長你好 大家都有談到營造業墜落打擊年 死亡人數要壓在68人以內最後你的墜落打擊年 去年一共有83名的工人墜落身亡"},{"start":7177.842,"end":7186.747,"text":"比你們原定目標68人還高出很多很多然後呢 從2014到2023年的10年之間一共奪走了995條人命 佔所有...抱歉 還沒 還沒 OK"},{"start":7203.382,"end":7228.781,"text":"就是歷年的這個墜落的植栽建樹奪走了這個995條人命佔所有營造業植栽死亡比例6到7成滋事體大那當然營造業是屬於這個高度的勞動密集還有兼具這個技術專業的產業工作環境是相當的複雜而且它的變異性非常的高在這種狀況裡面這個"},{"start":7232.323,"end":7254.594,"text":"發生率和嚴重度就植栽死亡或相較於其他的產業其實是相當嚴重所以今天大家都特別的提出來講那今天有人講到英國新加坡和日本大家都談到說他們一樣的產業營造業的墜落致死率大概是四成那台灣的致死率就是六七成"},{"start":7255.214,"end":7281.644,"text":"六七成那根據這個2024年這個墜落死亡的83人當中建築工程就有50人那你們自己也有統計你們自己也有統計83個去年死掉的83個裡面有71個罹難的勞工根本沒有接受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練"},{"start":7283.325,"end":7306.992,"text":"包括建築工程 土木工程和修繕工程其中又以建築業的工人最多83個死亡 去年死了83個有71個罹難的人完全沒有接受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練這會是你們去年所謂的營造業的最弱打擊年嗎你們在開玩笑 口號 口號"},{"start":7312.523,"end":7331.535,"text":"你們說他墜落打幾年結果發現死掉的裡面九成沒有受過任何的職業安全訓練這不 你不覺得這很荒謬嗎部長會不會有一點太荒謬了確實現在有受過安全教育訓練的人數我覺得是有待提升的不是啦"},{"start":7332.645,"end":7343.127,"text":"你是最弱 防止最弱的打擊年你定一年是68個以內結果死了83個結果83個裡面有71個根本沒有受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練部長那我先問你喔你都不敢承認說這個問題很荒謬很離譜那我再問你如果斷定這個勞工已經受過教育訓練你們查核的機制是什麼"},{"start":7363.932,"end":7377.111,"text":"營造業的勞動災害這麼嚴重沒有受過任何這個教育訓練的離災的勞工比例超過九成結果40位的罹難者當中有三個 這個數字很誇張"},{"start":7384.172,"end":7396.882,"text":"顧主沒有要求勞工接受訓練就讓他們上工這不是擺明了直接把他們送到死神的身邊的意思嗎你們怎麼去斷定有沒有受過你們怎麼查核"},{"start":7397.603,"end":7424.534,"text":"跟委員報告委員這個數據應該是我們的職業災害調查的時候發現這個罹災勞工我們問他的僱主他到任的時候當天有沒有對他做三個小時到六個小時的安全衛生教育訓練絕對沒有剛剛委員提到那個數字就是檢察員問了僱主以後僱主沒辦法提出說他有對他做六小時的教育訓練對那個都是不幸事件罹災之後"},{"start":7426.215,"end":7433.403,"text":"阿但你平時是怎麼樣去確認因為我們的安慰法 職業安全與衛生法第32條就講僱主有實施這個安慰教育和訓練的責任喔"},{"start":7440.721,"end":7455.476,"text":"那勞工有接受訓練的義務那我們的勞動部門行政部門到底是怎麼樣去確定而且你們是怎麼查核的沒有勞檢就沒有查核我們不用一條強制的強制回報的機制嗎"},{"start":7459.231,"end":7470.458,"text":"部長 法治病就是這樣寫 僱主有責任 勞工有義務但都沒有人在做 死了以後才發現金本高小英雄都不在這裡訓練過你們也都知道這個問題 你在墜落打擊年還這麼荒謬"},{"start":7476.141,"end":7491.809,"text":"你是罪弱打擊年欸如果你沒有標榜去年是營造業的罪弱打擊年還不夠荒謬你都宣稱是防止罪弱的打擊年結果還是這麼的荒謬啊這個是這個政策是有效的嗎更不要講法律就在那裡所以這是一個契機啊保證現在完蛋了啦輸定時不知道沒辦法啦"},{"start":7504.956,"end":7527.384,"text":"這有沒有辦法變成一個查核的制度面的反省而且是強制要回報有沒有可能我們來研擬相關的機制那我們也會來提高坦白說我們也來提高那個因為其實包括有很多的工協會他其實也辦這些教育安全的講座坦白說他們也跟我們反映其實很多勞工參與的意願不高"},{"start":7528.517,"end":7536.582,"text":"勞工怎麼會有參與的意願要花自己的時間而且我們職業安全衛生法的責任是在雇主所以你剛剛回答就是錯誤了你在講勞工你推卸給勞工預防責任職責預防責任是雇主要使用雇主的時間而不是使用勞工的時間你這個觀念要好好的搞清楚我不是推卸給勞工不是啦你這個"},{"start":7554.413,"end":7565.62,"text":"觀念要搞清楚我剛剛那句話還沒講完我說他沒跟我反映勞工參與的意願就是他說他覺得他要花一天的時間坐在那個地方他想拿一天的時間去賺錢"},{"start":7567.742,"end":7570.946,"text":"這個我講錯了這一天就是僱主要給付工資然後勞工不用上工那六個小時要去上課然後他的僱主要給付工資你懂嗎委員我現在說的是說我們也在思考怎麼樣來提高相關的誘因"},{"start":7589.326,"end":7595.692,"text":"所以我的意思是說在這個狀況下我們也要來提高我們在思考怎麼提高讓勞工比較願意來參與這些安全訓練的誘因你為什麼一直在講讓勞工有意願真正沒有意願的是雇主雇主如果願意付薪水讓勞工去上課"},{"start":7614.53,"end":7642.694,"text":"勞工何樂而不為呢現在你沒有薪水叫勞工花自己的時間去上課當然不想上課重點在這裡是 耿委員報告確實是雇主的責任那我們在目前在部裡面這邊也在協助如果勞工真的沒有時間去外面上白天的六小時課程現在我們有數位的課程數位的學習課程我現在要問你有沒有薪水重點是有沒有薪水啦薪水啦"},{"start":7643.683,"end":7671.629,"text":"不要講那一些啦 有沒有薪水才是重點啦你叫他花勞工自己的時間還是要花僱主的時間幾戶薪水之後的時間這才是重點所以你們在這裡 我聽你們部長和署長的講話的方法好像聽起來就是勞工要花自己的時間花自己的 始終的時間就是金錢就花自己的錢 而這個跟我們職業安全率 我們不會花到勞工自己的錢"},{"start":7672.549,"end":7675.532,"text":"只有時間就是金錢你沒有談雇主的給付工資的責任的話那你就是叫勞工自己買單了這當然是雇主的責任然後我們會來強化要求雇主進行這個責任所以第一個會來要求雇主進行這個責任你們的訓練規則"},{"start":7693.707,"end":7703.232,"text":"職業安全衛生教育的訓練規則你們主要針對擔任不同工作的勞工依其工作性質接受在職訓練但你們在勞動及職業安全衛生的研究紀刊的今年的3月號你們自己的報導 紀刊裡面就報導教育訓練對營造業卻沒有最弱或高價作業單獨設立專門的實務訓練課程"},{"start":7718.599,"end":7722.384,"text":"訓練規則針對營造業、安全與衛生業務主管甲乙和丙種的罪惡危害危害的預防管理實務訓練只有規範2到3個小時而且這個訓練是給安慰就是安慰業務主管"},{"start":7736.079,"end":7742.145,"text":"沒有給落實到每一個上工的勞工沒有規範實務訓練的內容對整體的最弱預防教學品質有很大的落差所以現在講你們有對主管"},{"start":7751.113,"end":7771.069,"text":"事業單位的主管有這個課程上的訓練但是沒有針對勞工墜落預防有直接的訓練規定且課程時數也不夠更沒有實務的訓練課程這個是你們的紀刊自己寫的那我現在現在我剛剛講的"},{"start":7775.11,"end":7793.19,"text":"你可不可以再具體回答我們勞工去上課算誰的成本算誰的我們當然希望雇主來付啊那就好了你希望雇主怎麼個付法第一個是我們會來加強要求第二個是剛剛就像委員說的如果是加強要求我們希望每一個"},{"start":7796.873,"end":7809.423,"text":"僱主業者都能夠落實安慰法第32條的僱主有責任勞工有義務接受教育訓練不要忘了83個死亡裡面有71個沒有任何的教育訓練死亡的 更不要講其他重傷重災的"},{"start":7815.41,"end":7837.117,"text":"是委員剛剛提到的那個課程裡面有一些速課部分我們在未來課程上的檢討設計上可以要求我今天都指出了制度面的問題你們要讓確保每一個上工的都受過教育訓練特別是營造業的最弱打擊年成為口號之後那你們我沒有要求你更多的你至少這個"},{"start":7838.197,"end":7850.022,"text":"要百分之百做得到吧那其實不好意思再講其實不只是營造業高空墜落還有另外一個產業另外一個行業哪一個行業你知道嗎其實我也總諮詢過你們就只想到營造業冷氣空調安裝業冷氣空調計施案安裝工人一樣比營造業的工人還更命懸一線"},{"start":7868.24,"end":7887.074,"text":"你知道在2010到2022年的9月之間也是差不多10出頭年冷氣師傅裝設或者是修繕裡面有40位是因為裝設和修繕冷氣死亡40個死亡裡面有27個是高空墜落死亡"},{"start":7888.075,"end":7900.168,"text":"所以大概冷氣裝修師傅死亡比例裡面有67%都是要去幫人家裝冷氣 修冷氣 高空 墜落 滾落造成失能和死亡署長你知道嗎跟委員報告這一塊我們也非常重視也很重視 那你們做了什麼"},{"start":7909.571,"end":7913.953,"text":"我們有跟那個內政部這邊國土署針對在建築基礎規範裡面在源頭裡面那個不要再講因為那是我去總質詢要求的新的建築物的建築這個規範要有一個裝設冷氣的空間讓維修和裝設有安全的環境但是"},{"start":7930.598,"end":7938.546,"text":"我 你沒有講的 我也沒有主動在提的那舊的建築物咧 現在舊的建築占99%咧那是新設的建築 新蓋的建築有受到因為我們額總質詢之後的建築規範了可是現在所有安裝冷氣的九成九"},{"start":7951.838,"end":7961.851,"text":"都是舊的沒有規範的而現在還在命懸一線的這一些冷氣空調祭司命懸一線在那裡高空墜落死亡率這麼高的那你們做了什麼"},{"start":7966.072,"end":7993.424,"text":"你們做了什麼預防跟委員說委員剛剛其實提了很多點我們其實都覺得確實有檢討我講了你們才想到而且都是關於如何真正的能夠落實所以我會來要求我們的治安署對於落實的強制的機制我覺得可以檢討連冷氣裝設空調裝設你們很難為什麼你知道嗎很難為什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":7996.004,"end":7999.993,"text":"你們不知道因為很多都是自營業者是啊我說你就知道我跟你們說你都沒在想自營業者"},{"start":8007.492,"end":8025.82,"text":"那你們要怎麼樣去落實他有什麼動機要去教養訓練那你們要刻意他自己或是他的雇主在維修或裝修的時候就有的沒有任何卡囉整疊破空中的他要怎麼去修理你知道他們多可憐嗎"},{"start":8027.369,"end":8038.065,"text":"委員我這邊說就是說剛剛其實講的這些事情都是落實如何落實甚至要不要有強制機制的問題我覺得這部分我們會來請請治安署來針對強制的機制來進行規劃跟研擬"},{"start":8042.523,"end":8062.659,"text":"要專案去處理 我現在跟你講的意思是說現在忘記到了 冷氣裝修的忘記到了很多人是說這麼危險 看了很多人就說我不做了但也很多人是非做不可然後他只能說我要多加三千 五千或八千的這個危險佳績各位啊 部長啊"},{"start":8064.793,"end":8070.478,"text":"交了五千八千給你去做那個高空沒有任何防護然後危險度極高的這個裝飾或者是維修就買斷了這一個責任然後就把這個風險默默的吞下去五千塊八千塊給你叫你去維修裝飾半空中沒有任何卡路沒有任何安全防護措施的"},{"start":8092.097,"end":8098.519,"text":"這個 冷氣 空調 你願意嗎?署長你願意嗎?部長你願意嗎?可是他沒有辦法欸 他必須要欸沒有安全帶 沒有扣環 沒有錨定點其他也必須要一些安全設施預防啊可是沒有錨定點 沒有安全扣環沒有任何的可以保護他可掛飾的這個錨定點 通通都沒有欸怎麼辦?"},{"start":8117.797,"end":8130.752,"text":"你要說一個你才去想到說一個你才去想到連署長都不知道你就想到我質詢總質詢說要求新蓋的建築物要有一個裝設的空間那是新的 那舊的怎麼辦"},{"start":8132.056,"end":8156.309,"text":"通通都沒有那我再跟你講這個問題很嚴重我再講回來高空墜落和建築業去年的聖誕節台北市一個搭建跨年舞台的男性工作人員從20米高的七樓層高的鷹架上摔落馬上當場死亡勞檢調查說沒有確實佩戴安全帶僱主也沒有設立安全網這種狀況很離譜"},{"start":8159.997,"end":8170.777,"text":"依據我們的職業安全衛生設施規則兩公尺以上就必須要安全防墜落的這個措施了可是都沒有本規則還是過足"},{"start":8173.736,"end":8194.446,"text":"這個職業安全設施規則還是讓僱主要負起勞工安全設備及措施的最低標準如果僱主連最低標準都不願意做 都沒有做你還能奢望僱主改善他的其他的作業場所然後去預防勞工發生職災嗎"},{"start":8198.288,"end":8209.514,"text":"所以我們剛剛看到工地外的篱笆印著安全第一的口號但是僱主通通都沒有落實這個確保勞工遵守安全規則的責任僱主"},{"start":8212.267,"end":8231.474,"text":"雇主也有責任雇主有預防責任但是勞工也有遵守的責任然後在這種狀況管理有時候勞工的這個安全意識薄弱的話未圖方便有時候也沒有依照安全程序進行作業然後"},{"start":8232.074,"end":8243.762,"text":"管理人員沒有盡到監督的責任沒有監督要求這個勞工遵守正確安全的步驟所以意外總是會來臨那我現在要講這個是"},{"start":8246.728,"end":8271.708,"text":"很多從事營建工作的勞工有時候都會按照自己的意識執行作業而且不知道這種施工方法具有發生職災的風險很高發生職災的原因有時候是因為設備或環境處於不安全的狀況有時候是沒有顧主的預防該有的設施設備但是其中一部分是勞工也有很大一部分是沒有安全的這個職災預防的意識這個就說明了"},{"start":8275.271,"end":8288.123,"text":"教育訓練多麼重要而剛好恰巧的政府對於要上工就要教育訓練是相對的頗為的輕忽啦那我現在講說這個"},{"start":8290.405,"end":8306.658,"text":"其實歷年的職災案例分析發生墜落事故的原因和因素發生的情境都具有高度的相似性大家高空墜落大家的管理都一樣像是施工架、水平支撐、模板支撐、鋼構作業及電梯景料"},{"start":8307.418,"end":8330.702,"text":"口的作業其中造成這個關鍵的墜落災害的原因可能包含這些架構配置不當本體防護不足或沒有安全的措施而這些防護措施的性能和強度嚴重不足那我接下來要講還有一個就是工人流轉在不同的工地這個營造業最明顯的典型就是流動率高承攬外包層層轉移"},{"start":8335.883,"end":8352.089,"text":"然後不斷一層又一層的分包下去外包的生態也讓他們的權益和安全也在層層外包之下被轉嫁了而且都是工地層層轉包下的吸收品而建築業就是層層轉包一層又一層那我們都知道風險就是這樣的被移轉很多時候我們安慰法的確有講到"},{"start":8362.738,"end":8383.686,"text":"即便那一轉他的補償責任還在但是他的賠償責任也在他也具有跟最終雇主的責任一樣但是因為沒有刑責沒有任何的刑責所以工地最有資本最雄厚的那個起造單位那個營造單位其實他們也不太重視雖然有"},{"start":8385.587,"end":8405.826,"text":"有賠償和補償的連帶責任 但是不一定會害怕因為不一定會發生 僥倖的心態在這種狀況所以啊 有時候就付一點錢但是呢 我們意思是說 這個問題 知識體大那我現在要跟你講喔 有時候 就是你看一下這個圖"},{"start":8408.55,"end":8435.871,"text":"你覺得工地夥伴安全第一其實我很不忍心對勞工這樣子指出他們的問題但是真的是中午休息太熱了而且很多工地的福利社聽說在工地附近的便利商店他們的一餐就是這樣子買了啤酒配他的便當就這樣子喝然後一年"},{"start":8436.852,"end":8450.754,"text":"其實我很不願意說你要去查可是喝了酒上工然後管理監督人員勞工沒有安全意識的概念管理監督人員也不管這麼多"},{"start":8452.233,"end":8472.763,"text":"那可是這有沒有影響 這有沒有影響所以是不是顯示 我不願意苛責於勞工啊就是說營造廠商的工地安全的管理的確存在著很多可以改進的空間那怎麼去解決勞工安全意識不足的問題"},{"start":8473.863,"end":8492.129,"text":"如果雇主 你在乎重視作業安全如果你雇主 你在乎職災的預防那會放任你的勞工這樣子做 中午就喝酒喝完酒就上工 然後到高空上作業然後讓公安事故 職災的風險就這樣子一直提高上去嗎"},{"start":8496.969,"end":8518.656,"text":"部長你對於這個照片你有什麼感想這是普遍的狀況這不是特例你到立法院去附近中午休息就是這樣子普遍的狀況隨便拍都有部長你做何感想這當然看起來是安全意識這當然是安全意識是有待加強的有待加強雇主有責任管理階層也有責任"},{"start":8519.639,"end":8544.277,"text":"如果雇主真的在乎 那勞工沒有安全意識難道不應該給他們好的教育 安全教育和訓練嗎如果政府做不到 然後政府也管不了然後失能死亡的比例還是這麼高那我就建議我們比照新加坡來 新加坡的模式來放給大家看它有一個SNAP SAFE"},{"start":8546.903,"end":8556.57,"text":"檢舉挽救生命 你看他們的官方的網頁它是一個報告平台舉報不安全的工作場所行為可以挽救生命你剛才那個好 大家播放一下我現在它從2021年起每年都會推行這個全國性的工作場所的安全衛生運動你給它簡單快速的"},{"start":8576.615,"end":8595.422,"text":"1.5倍你知不知你能够简单报告职业侮辱通过职业侮辱网站?不仰赖政府!为了开始,请到这个链接,或搜索这个QR码,你可以报告各种各样的问题,例如职业侮辱罚,职业安全和健康罚,或职业侮辱罚,或职业侮辱罚,或职业侮辱罚,或职业侮辱罚,或职业侮辱罚,或职业侮辱罚,或职业侮辱罚,或职业侮辱罚,或职业侮辱罚,或职业侮辱罚,"},{"start":8602.216,"end":8607.55,"text":"例如,如果您遇到一个不安全的职业案,您可以在这里报告,选择职业安全和健康犯罪或缺陷。"},{"start":8609.855,"end":8630.99,"text":"您也可以通过这条链接直接到同一页报告工作安全和健康问题。什么是工作安全和健康问题?一个不安全的工作室是当一个职员在工作中执行一个任务,对他们的健康或安全有影响,或是当工作室的状况有影响。这可以包括不被执行安全管理的计划,缺乏个人保护装备,或是家庭保护引致的缺陷。"},{"start":8634.773,"end":8639.918,"text":"好 沒關係好了這個待會兒大家要上網看好 我這要講就是說新加坡政府有心要作為所以他們在2024年的你們在高宮墜落房打擊年人家也在做回報救命運動然後他要雇主勞工和人民一起來回報"},{"start":8657.415,"end":8669.705,"text":"雇主有什麼責任 雇主要建立內部通報以預防事故發生要賦予勞工大聲可以講出不安全情況的權利當勞工報告不安全情況時 要立即減輕風險要表彰回報的勞工啊部長你知道 其實我們在法律上早就有了就是這個概念 這個概念"},{"start":8682.573,"end":8709.562,"text":"勞工我現在講是僱主責任接下來勞工責任當勞工發現不安全的情況時應採取暫停拍照然後回報的動作向僱主或工會報告不安全的狀況勞工就可以直接使用剛剛講SnapSafe的網站隨時上傳不安全的狀況只需要填寫說明上傳照片及基本資料就可以完成上傳甚至也有參考虛驚事件的報告指引"},{"start":8710.819,"end":8718.461,"text":"那我要講這個 這個跟我們的安慰法哪一個概念也有我們其實在母法上也有退避權 退避權"},{"start":8721.102,"end":8742.59,"text":"我們連法律工具都有但是我們就缺少政府一個這種全民一起來真的確實要打擊植栽降低植栽風險的決心那他不是雇主勞工欸新加坡連民眾都可以回報救命運動當中人民要扮演重要的角色"},{"start":8743.61,"end":8768.762,"text":"人民發現生活周邊出現不安全的狀況時也可以使用SnapSafe的網站上自己上傳照片那說明為職災預防 每個人都盡一己之力然後也可以下載海報這個張貼與工作場所鼓勵更多人參加回報救命運動所以新加坡是這樣子在職災發生前我們都知道職災啊預防更勝於事後的補償"},{"start":8770.543,"end":8789.273,"text":"所以在發生前要及時上傳 及時處理新加坡政府是用這樣的決心破例 這樣防圍杜鑒人家建立起來 降低吃災的決心和真正的作為而且真的有成效而台灣的政府做什麼我現在講 如果政府做不到 那你就給我們一個網頁"},{"start":8791.094,"end":8814.869,"text":"讓雇主也來 勞工也來 全民大家一起來 降低我們的植栽發生率啦所以真正的就是不安全回報全民運動這才是真正的重點啦 保長你感覺到嗎有辦法嗎 保長可以評估一下嗎好 來評估一下 評估一下 只是評估一下 我還沒再問你一個"},{"start":8815.889,"end":8819.773,"text":"評估完之後一個月的回報這樣就好蔣萬安市長他說以後這個台北市公安那個高空墜落很多所以他在公安都的匯報說以後墜落發生的時候工地至少停工半個月或一個月而且要透過事故註記沒有所謂改善就馬上復工的你對這個事情他把處罰強度增強"},{"start":8839.17,"end":8857.167,"text":"沒有書面送報告就可以復工的沒有改善後就立刻復工的而且要停工至少半個月一個月你覺得呢你對他這種處罰強度的增強有什麼看法跟文說明其實對於停工其實沒有我跟書裡面說了"},{"start":8859.87,"end":8874.895,"text":"該停工的尤其是過去紀錄上面這個前科雷我再講這個我再問你說他把強度拉高了而且依照你們的停工辦法只要改善簡送書面報告就可以復工你覺得這麼easy嗎"},{"start":8876.576,"end":8905.233,"text":"如果有死亡案件可以檢送書面報告就復工嗎如果有死亡案件的話那這樣子就改善就可以馬上復工嗎當台北市地方政府宣示你如果有我就一律半個月一個月才准復工看你有辦法安裝看你有這個關係要跟政府拚嗎這樣子的話你有什麼看法我可以再問你以往我們這種死亡案件從停工到復工平均時間多長"},{"start":8907.08,"end":8934.282,"text":"跟委員報告我們最近也在檢討這個停復工的要點如果是嚴重性的一個重大災害不是說半個月或一個月復工是整體改善甚至經過三四次的審查才會讓他復工那你都沒有書面嗎你要把書面審查如果有死亡案件書面審查就可以這個要件拿掉然後我問你過去都是停多久平均一個死亡案件都停復工這樣都停多久"},{"start":8935.086,"end":8948.098,"text":"你不要講得這麼好聽啦我們是不是在提供一個數據因為不同的情節因為有到火災爆炸有的是墜落所以這個部分可能我們要提供數據好 那你就把詳細資料簡附給我們看一下好 謝謝林委員 謝謝部長接下來請王振旭委員來做詢答"},{"start":8962.594,"end":8968.183,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們有請洪部長還有請質安署林署長"},{"start":8974.333,"end":8999.004,"text":"黃偉好部長好我想今天真的是很沉痛的一個主題即使明天是五一勞動節我們除了祝福所有勞工朋友跟他的家人都能夠平安幸福以外今天這個主題真的是很令人沉痛尤其是在高空墜落的事故的部分那個都是一個喪可是從數據來看"},{"start":9002.486,"end":9022.321,"text":"我們每一年就有那麼多的家庭變成一個永恆的沉痛永恆的心痛所以真的我想今天的委員們都非常非常的期待未來如何能夠減少這樣的事故的發生所以今天就根據三個主題來跟部長還有署長來討論一下"},{"start":9025.751,"end":9043.993,"text":"其實植栽一直都是大家非常關心的議題所以在這個過程裡面預防還有責任的釐清是很重要的那我們也知道說在過去這麼多年來所發生的這個植栽的這個死亡人數其實是讓我們很心驚膽跳"},{"start":9045.194,"end":9071.556,"text":"那很多都屬於複合式的災害除了這個高峰墜落過程裡面其實很多都是複合式的災害那近期也做了很多檢討包括今天的檢討裡面也認為包括可能原因有工程設計為考量施工安全風險之下所造成的問題那工程安慰資源投入不足還有工程平行分包缺乏統合管理機制等等這個所造成的一些問題"},{"start":9072.637,"end":9095.688,"text":"那包括在前一段時間全年的台中大肚倉儲的火災案這個就是很典型的一個屬於複合性的災害的問題那最後結果反而是被起訴的對象不包括全年或者是負責工程的廠商反而是派駐在現場的空調配管工程人員跟員工被起訴受到影響"},{"start":9096.528,"end":9119.081,"text":"所以前署長才會感嘆說未來就是誰創造風險誰就要負責管理請問一下部長未來勞動部要如何讓企業主還有營造廠都能夠被克制並確實負擔起管理跟預防職災的責任雖然已經有過那麼多的委員"},{"start":9120.142,"end":9127.831,"text":"跟你要求要做這方面的處理那可不可以請部長在針對這樣的狀況再進一步說明跟網友說明我們確實這段時間其實也檢討確實很多我們看到的重大的"},{"start":9137.864,"end":9158.9,"text":"這個職安或公安的事件裡面很難去苛責業主的責任所以這一次其實也是在我們的法規的修訂裡面把業主的責任其實給放進去一個是業主的責任那業主尤其他該擔負起包括其實在一開始的時候就要做相關的風險評估按照風險評估來做施工的執行"},{"start":9159.98,"end":9186.653,"text":"第二個是其實我們也看到很多這個整個大家其實都提到乘風轉包的問題乘風轉包他的風險跟他的責任就可能會被一直的轉嫁或者是切割最後反而會發生很難救責的狀況或者是這整個工地的這個責任是一個散亂的這個狀況所以我們這次修法裡面也放入要求這個法規裡面直接要要求我們其中一個這個承包商要做"},{"start":9187.333,"end":9213.848,"text":"統合性這個相關的統合的這個責任必須要指定一個廠商來做這件事情的部分那這也是在回應我們目前在工地的現場看到的這些工地的文化或者是他們的這個樣態其實給予相關的制度修訂的回應所以未來有沒有機會針對某一些特定的剛有提到一些民間工程或者是屬於政府部門的工程"},{"start":9214.788,"end":9242.628,"text":"在風險上如果有機會先了解它的這個風險是非常高的話那有沒有機會先去做臨場的管理這部分不知道這個其實就是我們在講的源頭的管理的部分就是業主在一開始源頭的時候他就要在做這個風險相關的掌握甚至相關的風險的評估設計跟管理這其實就是我們在說的在源頭管理他就必須要科與他做這個責任如果沒有做那就要開罰"},{"start":9244.008,"end":9269.735,"text":"因為我們了解現在的建築物越來越在設計上的風格為了要凸顯它的特色所以我們從它的設計圖就可以理解它的風險尤其是在高空最多的風險可能是非常非常高的這部分我的意思就是說有沒有機會當它開始有這個設計圖出現的時候其實相關單位就能夠掌握到未來這個風險極高之下是不是原來的極淺"},{"start":9270.615,"end":9297.901,"text":"這是我們剛才說的他其實在規劃設計的階段他就要在一開始的時候就把風險的評估跟風險管理的方式他就要把它給做出來他有責任必須做出來也不能再迴避這件事情OK好那就麻煩這部分要再加強OK謝謝那第二部分就要跟部長來討論一下這個強化勞工健康服務的部分因為我來自醫界所以一直對於這個勞工的這個健康服務其實"},{"start":9298.681,"end":9321.499,"text":"一直都有很深的感受那在去年6月我們有看到這個職業安全衛生研究所也出了一份報告不知道部長有沒有機會去了解這份報告這份報告主要是針對於從2011年開始針對300人的員工以上的這個部分做實施臨場健康服務"},{"start":9322.259,"end":9340.725,"text":"以來把這個十幾年來的這些經驗匯整以後針對於在這個過程裡面勞工健康服務的效益做一個評估那這個評估裡面也特別在訪談了145家比較具有特別危害健康作業職場的這些勞工的這個服務的人員包括醫護跟職安"},{"start":9345.507,"end":9362.328,"text":"職安衛的這些同仁做了相關的這個了解跟調查那其中他有整理出了九點的政策建議那包括有五大點就是第一個就是要調整定這個成效的指標第二個就是要修正勞工健康保護的規則"},{"start":9363.61,"end":9384.825,"text":"第三個是記錄表單讓他更彈性簡易第四個就是要依照行行業的這個特性來提供健康指引那第五點就是提供充分的訓練資源來強化溝通跟推廣訓練等等那這部分很具體的是針對於未來比較大型的這個具有多的勞工同仁的"},{"start":9385.325,"end":9398.824,"text":"健康服務的過程裡面希望有更好的一個政策上的推行那這部分不知道部長有沒有其他的建議或者是有沒有可能在一個月裡面給我們一份這個政策建議可行性的報告平息"},{"start":9400.146,"end":9425.872,"text":"包圍沒有問題這部分我們已經努力在做這個部分就麻煩對真的健康服務的部分可以再加強好那第三個部分就是要跟部長討論一下鼓勵企業來提供勞工癌篩還有這個癌後的後續協助因為我們知道其實很多勞工朋友他們有一個癌症是跟他們的職業"},{"start":9427.052,"end":9448.101,"text":"跟他們的生活習慣是有非常大的關係就是口腔癌那針對於我們這個剛剛所提到那份報告裡面就是健康服務裡面是不是能夠更加強尤其是像跟這個勞工朋友比較有相關的這個口腔癌的服務因為我們知道其實很多的勞工朋友他們不是不願意去篩檢"},{"start":9449.241,"end":9463.709,"text":"他們很擔心篩檢以後萬一被診斷癌症造成的困擾干擾還有他們未來的這個就業等等會不會受到很多影響因為我們知道其實口腔癌的病人他"},{"start":9464.429,"end":9486.006,"text":"目前的治療之下呢他其實可以提供有好的一個癒後將近有五成到六成的這些勞工朋友其實他的口腔還經過處理就可以改善了可是當然也有一些是比較晚期的病人平均之下預期有一個診斷口腔癌的這個勞工他的這個平均壽命是13.7年"},{"start":9487.947,"end":9515.381,"text":"那他的健康餘命是12.4年可是相較於相較於沒有癌症的這個病人他們損失了15.1的平均這個健康餘命還有16.4年的這個不健康餘命的這個影響就是說他受到影響其實對這個家庭對社會對工作來講都是非常非常多的這個造成了後果所以我剛所提到就是為什麼他們有時候對篩檢是有疑慮"},{"start":9517.242,"end":9537.569,"text":"因為他們擔心一旦確診以後後續的治療對於他的工作的影響那如果他後來是把癌症治好了他回到職場所受到的影響等等會讓他們造成一些擔心這部分可能也要麻煩部裡面看有沒有更好的政策來加強在這個"},{"start":9539.95,"end":9556.996,"text":"健康服務的同時能夠也讓這些勞工們知道他們在這部分如何透過我們的雇主能夠來強化有關於這個健康服務的模式我們也知道現在賴總統在打造這個健康台灣"},{"start":9557.896,"end":9583.354,"text":"但是這個健康台灣其實就是很希望所有的國民都能夠得到很好的健康的服務的模式那我們剛才提到根據113年那份的報告裡面我們期待健康服務的內涵應該不只是安全或者是合法而已我們希望把這個健康服務的概念能夠真的帶入到在這個健康台灣政策之下的一些"},{"start":9584.395,"end":9600.701,"text":"希望能夠有在政策上可以具體來呈現的所以最後我們是希望說能夠在整體的政策上也透過勞動部這邊的努力將健康台灣的政策目標納入到企業永續的指標裡面"},{"start":9602.122,"end":9628.37,"text":"那第二個部分就是要強化鼓勵企業來提供罹癌員工的協助協助方案剛剛有提到一些口腔癌所造成的困境還有強化這個提供癌症康復員工續聘跟工作調整還有透過勞工健康服務機制來鼓勵勞工癌篩的這些希望能夠納為這個政策性的內涵而不是說我們在做這個健康服務的過程裡面只是合法"},{"start":9629.17,"end":9655.653,"text":"有在做這個運作而言那這部分可不可以請勞動部也能夠在一個月裡面能夠具體的提出這個推動的這個書面報告給我們參考好沒問題那就麻煩這個部長還有同仁加油謝謝謝謝好謝謝王委員謝謝部長現在休息十分鐘沒有辦法宣布啊王委員說了休息啊對啊"},{"start":10318.109,"end":10331.255,"text":"我們繼續開會 我們麻煩下一位劉建國委員召委發言好 謝謝主席 有請部長有請洪部長"},{"start":10333.769,"end":10358.08,"text":"部長好部長辛苦了明天就是五一勞動節也是部長就任以來第一個勞動節那部長還記得接下部長一職的時候那卓院長有給你三個主要的任務部長還記得吧記得就這三個嘛我就不再贅述了那請問有達標嗎那這幾個月我們很努力希望往這些方向去邁進你沒有回答我有沒有達標"},{"start":10359.87,"end":10364.161,"text":"我當然知道你很努力,我又沒有說你不努力我們盡力做"},{"start":10366.55,"end":10392.756,"text":"好啦第一點就是紅部長接任的首要任務就在後續處理上我想部長也展現了十足的行動力跟決心嘛穩定這整個勞動部這我必須要肯定啦但第二點勞動部是為了健全友善合理的持長讓所有的勞工在安全的環境中為國家為人民為社會來做做全力的這樣的一個付出嘛那我就要請部長來看這個相關的數據重大旨在什麼人數"},{"start":10398.067,"end":10419.944,"text":"108就316然後109 313其實每每講到這個數據其實坦白講是很沉痛那10278這個是疫情的時候然後11就開始在往上提升但是那113又降下來287那114年截至目前為止4月是70個人你們有講說應該會比往前年度更少有把握嗎"},{"start":10423.427,"end":10450.792,"text":"比前一年會更少有把握嗎因為當然今年到現在到4月坦白說我們不會用把握這兩個字我覺得我們會盡我們所能努力做但是都不讓你看喔我想這一個每一個死亡人數都代表一個一個讓人家非常傷心難過的一個家庭然後龍東牧師去年把把這個營造營造業"},{"start":10452.32,"end":10458.625,"text":"墜落打擊年啦齁那目標是比往前一年要減少30%的這個墜落之災然後結果到去年9月光營造業就墜落66人齁也是這個"},{"start":10467.795,"end":10483.786,"text":"全年度更高達148人整個打擊計畫是提早破功那當時何前部長還講說要達到這個目標確實有困難你們自己定目標你們自己定了叫做營造業最落打幾年結果跟我講說困難對外講說困難我為什麼要提醒這個事情你們還有另外一個目標2030年植栽要減半對不對"},{"start":10496.896,"end":10520.525,"text":"會不會現在提早破工會不會就像何前部長講的現在要提早跟我講說困難我們這些目標其實坦白說都是當初定定是要我覺得包括是定一個我覺得希望能夠更符合而且更進步的目標那2030的這個目標我想我們現在是我還是會說我們必須全力以赴"},{"start":10521.605,"end":10549.864,"text":"我知道剛剛你也答詢說當然目標除此之外還有好的方法嘛對不對那這個方法非常重要但是你們的方法不能只有剩下只有修治安法嘛是因為剛剛很多委員的垂詢嘛很多的面向但是我坦白講我看部長跟署長還有甚至於那個國土署的副總統在答詢的時候好像公共工程比較可以去去test到那其他四部門的幾乎根本就是無從著力嘛"},{"start":10550.56,"end":10568.371,"text":"那等於把這個目標整體掛在一起這邊完全沒有辦法有任何的有效方法去做處理甚至連方法都沒有的情況之下那你當然不可能去達標啊你不可能去達標怎麼會設定2030年要減半這就很矛盾嘛 很衝突嘛"},{"start":10569.264,"end":10595.72,"text":"而且我剛剛在廁所遇到署長跟署長講說這個報告是誰寫的你們來彎布這個報告署長跟我講說是他寫的然後整體focus還是在營造這個換床當然有講說整體比例要有個2%等等等數之類但是那個樣態真的非常多我們雲林連飼料場就可以墜落然後死傷嚴重"},{"start":10598.424,"end":10619.791,"text":"不只啦 剛剛林委員特別提到這個冷氣的施工人員也不只啊 也廣告業者啊反正怎麼講 那個樣態面向是非常非常多當然你可以講比例啦營造業的比例 建商的比例是最高的 是沒錯"},{"start":10620.373,"end":10641.506,"text":"但是不能因為這個最高的其他的我們就忽略嘛各位可以看你把這個主要的這個這個類別可以把它降下來當然有效的會去呈現在你想要達到這個目標啦這也是也不為過嘛這是方式之一嘛但是你看喔我們113年可以降到287是什麼原因就你們要知道啊"},{"start":10646.144,"end":10650.9,"text":"主要是什麼原因?回顧剛才那個表格就重大指摘什麼人數"},{"start":10653.427,"end":10680.44,"text":"跟委員報告我們不會只有說這個在職安法修法前我們還是有很多這個減災的策略在推動包括加強勞檢或是說這個辦理相關的第一場所有的我知道啦 知道這個都有在做啦但是做得到不到位嘛是不是有需要再做快速的調整嘛是不是要擴及的面向擴及的職業列別是不是要再增加嘛 對不對這剛才部長也都有答覆嘛"},{"start":10680.64,"end":10684.377,"text":"那我先請教醫生為什麼你們可以撿到287?主要原因是什麼?"},{"start":10686.536,"end":10711.172,"text":"其實還有一部分就勞檢以外其實各部會一起幫忙也是蠻重要的剛剛委員有提到我們不管是交通部、內政部、經濟部這個部分我們都一起來合作怎麼樣去大家所管的事業裡面去將要求這個防稅的一個處理所以這個部分跟委員報我們的面向應該是蠻多面向的那至於說287人的部分應該是營造業有檢疫部分"},{"start":10714.208,"end":10728.277,"text":"為什麼營造業會緊一部分主要的原因剛剛我也知道我們在去年就是營造業的最多打擊年所以我們是動用的非常多是營造業的最多打擊還是中央政策的打防你看啦自己有把這個目標降下來不曉得什麼原因降下來我就覺得會"},{"start":10744.691,"end":10758.027,"text":"這樣你們的方法是很自己都沒有把握的方法然後去形成一個方法然後再請教你為什麼可以降下來又講的不是很精準你們這個方法顯然就不是還有一個好方法"},{"start":10758.581,"end":10773.71,"text":"跟我們說明剛才我同意我們剛才說就是說這不是只是修法的問題因為土法不足以自行所以我們其實可能也看到這裡面會有很多是法規的落實的程度的問題那這也包括"},{"start":10774.07,"end":10803.913,"text":"比方說這段時間跟署裡面我們一直在檢討跟討論剛才說停復工的這個做法裡面是不是有更多如果未來要復工的話他必須要擔負起更多比方說他是一個系統性的改善所以這是在做法上面如果被停工的廠商他就要擔負起更高的更高的成本才能夠復工的話他也會更加的小心我們也在這個方面去做檢討所以幾個部分我們都在檢討希望能夠更加的落實這些相關的法"},{"start":10805.113,"end":10831.961,"text":"你答覆我這是剛剛李委員問的另外一個問題啦當然聽吳公的樣態狀況是不一啦不可能說去取得一個平均值嘛所以剛剛你沒辦法回答我也能夠理解嘛我現在講的說你113可以降到287主要原因是什麼你這樣答覆我 雖然這樣答覆我是很沒有把握的答覆我也是自己沒有去掌握嘛去年雖然沒有這個疫情啦但央行有祭出這個史上最狠的打王政策啦"},{"start":10833.402,"end":10855.322,"text":"讓房地產的市場又有了改變嘛可以看一下然後今年狀況也沒有改變首屆在全國的新屋推有327萬件是歷史的新低啦其實今年4月齁 職災死亡人數是70人職災人數目前是有樂觀推估啦今年職災死亡人數有機會再減少這是你們的資料喔但是我現在最擔心的一個狀況"},{"start":10856.787,"end":10874.68,"text":"等到黃石業回溫加班趕工的亂象會不會再全部出現就跟在111年的時候又到最高的這樣的一個是不是最高我也不曉得所以當建商業者只顧著把落後的進度再補回來會不會又牢計法、治安法又放在一邊"},{"start":10875.68,"end":10899.15,"text":"那職災人數就再往上回升這確實是我們要非常小心的一個因素所以部長這個絕對要去考量到我們勞工部部長估計今年的職災人數應該會再下降那如果真的是明年的市場上的回溫你要如何防護相關的業者把勞工的命當成耗材再使用"},{"start":10899.99,"end":10917.139,"text":"根本說明我們當然不會把勞工的命當耗材但是我們確實有觀察我是說你老實說相關的一些業者嘛因為他要刮工嘛 手工嘛對 沒錯我們確實看到當業者越趕工的狀況的時候其實他的相關的這個安全衛生其實做的就會這個"},{"start":10918.8,"end":10945.614,"text":"可能常常就會疏漏所以跟趕工跟工程這個工地的趕工的這個狀態其實是有一些相關的這也是我們要非常非常小心我們也在跟治安署其實在討論這部分必須面對跟如果有這個狀況的話我們就要更強力的方式下場去介入好我最後一個問題啦當然不是只有歇華還有是要做勞動檢查嘛是對不對那可以看一下3月27 治安省你們自己換了新聞治安署北中南同步勞檢全台開華1223萬"},{"start":10949.161,"end":10972.754,"text":"然後在這次的327大老前 差了82個工地總計違反256項 勒令停工28處總統我今天就不再贅述了看起來好像划得很重 你再看歷屆的這個划款這是113年 329 1040 你還沒有破前年再來就變成936 再來就變成985 再來就往下降了這是什麼數字"},{"start":10979.312,"end":11000.263,"text":"就是說,如果今天治安署的全國勞檢有效,你要去怎麼解釋去年11月的774萬,今年怎麼結果反彈到又回到去年同期的1000多萬。那你治安署跟六都的勞政機關去勞檢,請教一下,那一般縣市勒?是完全不干他們的事情。"},{"start":11002.76,"end":11030.056,"text":"跟委員報告那個整個罰款的金額它是因為那一次的整個全國的檢查的工地工地數你們哪一次不是全國的檢查是由首長帶隊跟當地的主管機關一起對一起有首長帶隊跟當地的主管機關就會把這個罰款金額查獲的委員勞檢的件數提高只要不是首長不是各縣市的主管就是要偏低"},{"start":11031.46,"end":11059.893,"text":"這是什麼邏輯跟委員不是這個意思是說剛剛委員現在秀的這個部分是我們有這個帶隊去做的這個同步勞檢那實際上我們去年整個勞檢裁罰金額也達到五億元不是說這個是當天這個是當天我們的首長帶隊的時候那一天統計出來的數字那你回答我到底還不是一樣只要是當天是首長帶隊的那一天的比例就是偏高"},{"start":11061.65,"end":11089.609,"text":"只要不是首長帶隊的就不是這種金額嗎你要打我應該是這樣嗎我聽懂委員的意思我是覺得說第一個這些相關的數字並不是說一定要罰到什麼一定要罰到上千萬或者是什麼你這個東西作為標準並不是用這個來作為要求那首長帶隊去勞檢這比較代表的是要表達一個對於這個工地勞安狀況的重視它的意義比較是在這個地方"},{"start":11089.949,"end":11112.19,"text":"倒不是說一定說我們只要首長帶隊這就一定要罰到上千萬其實倒也不是這個意思可是我覺得表達重視那最重要的事情還是是這個勞動檢查能不能落實到每一天然後把該檢查的部分給檢查出來該罰的部分要罰出來我覺得這部分才是我覺得這是我們要去努力的目標好我要突顯這個問題是因為3月19號我也在這個委員會質詢"},{"start":11114.898,"end":11132.016,"text":"我一直提醒勞檢能力是不足然後勞檢不是只有你勞動部跟六都一般縣市勒?是一般縣市勒?也有不足的問題我的母縣、孕育縣你知道嗎剛剛在提到最弱的可以看一下110人就10個人"},{"start":11134.795,"end":11146.48,"text":"三人是墜落的 什麼業務代查啦喔112人 9人 有6人墜落 5人是營造 1人是製造113人 12人 5人墜落 2人是營造 3人是製造這是近八年最高的 其中一個是飼料廠飼料廠喔另外一個是在食品廠 然後你們的報告是說他因為中毒"},{"start":11161.889,"end":11175.3,"text":"他是墜落他是滑落到那個有早期的地方他如果今天不掉下去沒有這回事啊他也不會中毒啊那這個歸類在墜落還是歸類在中毒但是你們把他歸類在中毒"},{"start":11177.742,"end":11203.897,"text":"不是這樣啊所以我就跟你講這種墜落在工地的範疇裡面在它實際上在操作的範圍裡面它的墜落的樣態絕對不只營造業啦很多很多的業別那沒什麼樣態不一樣我希望你們的你們那個報告可能要再要再詳細精準一些好不好好那我當然我還是會強調說回歸到營造業當然它的比例是最高的我們的方法如果用對"},{"start":11205.239,"end":11214.674,"text":"它可以讓整體的墜落導致死亡人數下降對你整體要達到這個目標當然有幫助嘛但是你也不能輸其他的業別啊"},{"start":11216.84,"end":11240.397,"text":"我們要表達是這樣子嗎 是好不好 好是不是請在一個詳細的一個各個樣態各個評估的這樣的狀態的資料給委員會做一個參考好不好 好 一個月一個月啦 一個月 好 謝謝還有方法 應對的方法 好不好 謝謝好 謝謝劉建國召委的發言謝謝部長的答詢現在我們請羅廷維委員發言"},{"start":11252.608,"end":11260.599,"text":"好 謝謝有請部長有請洪部長羅文豪"},{"start":11261.519,"end":11288.582,"text":"好部長好部長大家都很關心喔營造業職災中最嚴重的墜落事故啊長年高居重大職業災害的首位死亡人數占高達是60到70%所以在2024年訂了一個營造業墜落打擊的年度啊目標是全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數呢是要低於68人部長墜落打擊年越打越差到底怎麼了"},{"start":11290.203,"end":11305.077,"text":"跟我們說明確實我們在去年沒有達到沒有達到原本的這六十八的目標可是並沒有升價並不是越打越差啦就是還是有微幅的下降但是下降的復顧確實這個是沒有達標沒有錯"},{"start":11307.339,"end":11333.797,"text":"我們來看一下根據統計自114年1月1日到4月15日因墜落滾落造成的職業災害死亡人數已經達36人是全產業那部長勞動部近期在職業安全的管理螺絲有點鬆因為去今年才過不到一半距離全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數要壓低在68人以下的一個目標現在就已經超過一半了那勞動部怎麼辦"},{"start":11337.726,"end":11352.761,"text":"今年營造業是18目前現在營造業死亡人數是18人18人我說的是全產業因墜落滾落造成職業災害死亡人數已達36人全產業全產業是36營造業是18營造業是全產業的其中一部分"},{"start":11358.661,"end":11383.877,"text":"當然我用最高的標準去看啦那基本上我想說的是113年為例墜落滾落的死亡之災全產業人數有148人剛剛林淑芬委員說113年營造業墜落死亡之災有83人那148減83其他產業有56人65人 對不起比例其實也不少對於營造業以外的行業墜落之災部長怎麼預防"},{"start":11386.735,"end":11405.187,"text":"我想我們現在對於這個相關的墜落我們從法制面的修訂其實現在有做了修法的計劃那現在草案也預計在這個會期希望能夠送到立法院裡面包括要去整合這個層層轉包的包商的責任跟相關的風險"},{"start":11406.227,"end":11430.143,"text":"也包括我們未來會希望能夠去追究業主的責任這是在法制面的部分修法的話是眾多的手段之一法制面你剛剛說的那這樣子我說4月21日台大醫院東外牆鷹架坍塌的一個案件為例造成移工一時事後點工時還發現少一人請問廠商在人員管理的究竟有落實"},{"start":11431.204,"end":11460.226,"text":"那這個部分上當然這是個案預防發生職災上是不是做得不夠如何降災如何提升其職業的安全衛生的一個品質我想入法修法這也是一個手段那勞動部在報告中有提到加強營造業最弱的預防專案檢查部長檢查一直都有在做那現在你說要專案但為什麼職災總是發生在查查落實之後還是查查落實職業安全衛生都只是做表面的"},{"start":11461.238,"end":11484.309,"text":"跟文修銘我不覺得這些查查都是做表面那我們需要更努力我覺得我們是確實需要更努力可是我不同意一概而論說這些都是做表面那這樣子我們來看一下雇主跟勞工的個人職安意識會不會不足您覺得呢當然有這個當然有這個狀況那如果是這樣職安意識這部分要怎麼加強"},{"start":11485.437,"end":11513.305,"text":"這裡面包括剛剛其實大家談到的教育訓練我們必須更落實來這邊我來講一下你剛說的教育訓練嘛就是職業安全衛生法第32條規定僱主對勞工應實施從事工作的預防災變及必要的安全衛生訓練嘛就是所謂的教育訓練但是我們看到這個訓練規則第17條更規定僱主對新僱勞工或者在職業勞工變更工作前因此其受"},{"start":11514.486,"end":11541.869,"text":"適應的一個各該項工作必要一般的安全衛生部長你覺得這個教育訓練勞工的一個職災影響對整個整體發生以後重要嗎整體發生你覺得這個教育訓練對勞工的職災發生影響好 當然重要重要勞動部統計職災發生有近七成的人是罹災者七成的人沒有教育訓練"},{"start":11544.983,"end":11564.955,"text":"七成是總數跟委員報告確實喔這個尤其是營造業很多都是派遣或是點工他在當天上工的時候或許在當天上工就離債的話可能在我們在查查的時候僱主就沒辦法提供出佐證的資料說他有對他做教育訓練所以就會認為他違反規定對113年營造最弱83人有71人沒有教育訓練對吧"},{"start":11572.523,"end":11582.701,"text":"那署長您是不是要跟部長講一下這個數字應該沒有錯吧我們大概是佔七成啦對七成是非常高的部長你有看到現在的狀況嗎"},{"start":11583.795,"end":11609.348,"text":"所以我剛才才說我覺得我們關於教育訓練的部分需要更加的落實雖然法規在但是落實的程度不夠高這個土法還是有不足之心現在有法規落實的程度不夠高但是為什麼落實的程度不夠高到底狀況在哪裡勞工於第一次上工時就必須接受教育訓練勞工要怎麼上課僱主要幫他上課還是要找誰去教育訓練的機構上課嗎"},{"start":11611.818,"end":11628.306,"text":"上課的這一天勞工薪水是否規定由雇主來給付呢應該是雇主的責任這些部分我們都相信雇主有責任但是我剛說的不是相信我們要求雇主是有責任的要求雇主要有責任但是他要怎麼上課"},{"start":11629.026,"end":11653.067,"text":"是雇主幫他上課還是專業的教育機構幫他上課還是雇主自己也覺得可以逃避上課這些都是在實務上很多勞工就是因為自己要去訓練機構上課上課的費用雇主也不一定會出啊然後上課當天又有可能沒有薪水當然我們相信有些人會不照法規去走"},{"start":11654.122,"end":11665.448,"text":"所以這個乾脆勞工就不去上課不去接受這個教育訓練所以這就是實務面我們現在遇到的一個困境所以我們到底該怎麼辦部長我剛點出的這些問題"},{"start":11667.777,"end":11686.343,"text":"跟委員說明確實這個小小包的包商他沒有能去上課但是我們在法定也規定這個最大包的營造廠在這個最小包的工人進來的時候他如果還是可以集合起來幫他上課我們目前的責任上還是可以去追究到說這個最大包要做這個責任"},{"start":11686.963,"end":11708.376,"text":"今天大家都非常的著重在數字上的一個探討我也是但是我們也必須要找一些方法說到底這樣子的教育訓練該怎麼辦沒有辦法落實所以教育訓練沒有落實要怎麼瞭解老簡要怎麼去揪出有沒有違反時要如何處理改善的通知罰還這若只是改善通知是不是仍然可以上工"},{"start":11709.136,"end":11716.782,"text":"那勞工的危害變資能力還是不夠啊還是容易發生職災啊所以該怎麼辦第一次違反是只有改善通知對吧沒有錯 依照現行的規定是先通知改善所以就可以拼第一次啊"},{"start":11725.427,"end":11746.853,"text":"呃拼第一次通知改善嘛那拼第一次沒有死他們就賺到啊這就是雇主的態度嘛那我們要怎麼幫助勞工呃其實我們現在上課的管道是非常多如果說是派去訓練單位甚至我們現在人上網都可以上課他隨時都可以上課所以我們現在的提供給這個勞工的一個教育訓練是多種管道是可以我知道"},{"start":11747.674,"end":11763.393,"text":"這個待會我會強調多元管道有問題但是我要講的是第一次可以改善通知第一天的上工有可能是最危險的第一次為什麼因為他不熟悉狀況嘛不熟悉整體的一個勞工環境嘛所以我要講的是說我們現在看到的這個問題"},{"start":11764.861,"end":11788.9,"text":"我們的教育訓練在第一次改善通知這樣子的一個著重點有可能造成很多僱主想要拼看看那再來怎麼勞檢怎麼樣強力的稽查所謂的教育訓練這個區塊我覺得這個部分是可以來努力的再來治安署從109年開始花了多少錢做數位學習教材剛剛你有提到多元嘛到現在又有多少勞工使用"},{"start":11790.223,"end":11803.559,"text":"請問一下 成效是否符合我們這樣子所有的經費花費 治安署可以幫我們回答一下好 各位委員報告 確實這個部分當時開發以後你花了多少錢 跟大家分享"},{"start":11806.707,"end":11824.142,"text":"大概每年300萬的維護每年300萬好 那每年300萬那你覺得有多少勞工使用剛剛我們講的有七成的人沒有這樣子的一個教育訓練喔那有多少的人去使用了所謂的數位學習教材你覺得成效有符合你編列這個經費嗎"},{"start":11825.803,"end":11852.693,"text":"跟委員報告目前在這個網上上過課大概有30萬人次啦30萬人次到底是掛課然後大家打開了以後有沒有在前面學習我們也不太知道啦那當然這不是你的錯如果還有這樣子的行為這不是你的錯但是如果沒有安排教育訓練只能依職業安全衛生法第15條除以新台幣3萬以上15萬以下的罰款依然可以上工喔但這不是很怪嗎"},{"start":11853.753,"end":11880.731,"text":"該安排教育訓練的沒有落實等於職業安全衛生法第32條形同虛設所以我要講的是今天我們點出的這些問題治安署要怎麼樣去加強這個部分要麻煩你好不好那部長我所點出的這些問題我覺得今天我們探討時事嘛就數據上的一個去依據這些問題我們希望說能夠點出這些問題也希望部長能夠多關心當然我覺得針對剛剛說教育訓練的部分怎麼樣更加的落實或更多的有效的管道這部分我會來請"},{"start":11882.168,"end":11882.509,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員來做詢問"},{"start":11909.029,"end":11912.01,"text":"謝謝主席 陽泉發言 邀請部長來 請部長兩位人好部長好部長 今天的議題 墜落打擊年我想這個是大家都非常非常的關心勞動部也將去年是定位為營造墜落打擊年那目標呢 墜落的"},{"start":11936.673,"end":11950.677,"text":"上升人數是68人以下但最後是破功了因為我們統計的人數是85人那過去大多墜落死亡的人數大概都在100人左右所以首先要來請教"},{"start":11952.498,"end":11974.956,"text":"當然在公安職災的檢查預防跟處理上有許多的不足他這個問題當然也不是一日之寒那在這樣的情況之下本席要請教請教部長你認為關鍵的原因到底是什麼呢因為營造公安跟墜落死亡如果沒有辦法改善"},{"start":11976.016,"end":11999.866,"text":"這個會影響的很多的一個效能所以請教你認為到目前為止關鍵的原因是什麼那麼我們又如何有改善的方案請說說明跟委員報告確實去年的原本的目標是沒有達到這我們必須承認但是它還是有一些微幅的下降那可是在目標的達成上面我是覺得我們應該更盡力"},{"start":12000.546,"end":12025.687,"text":"那在這個更進一步的做法裡面我們自己也看到有幾個情況有些是制度面上面的問題包括法規面上的不足那也有一些是落實層面上面包括是現在有一些工程如果他有趕工的狀況其實常常他在這個資安位的部分他其實就會比較疏漏所以這些情況我覺得我們都必須綜合來考慮把它作為我們要改善的策略"},{"start":12026.462,"end":12040.938,"text":"那怎麼改善呢你很好你可以提出目前的面向問題點在哪裡那你已經提出了那你要怎麼改善呢所以本期請問的是你關鍵的原因你提出了如何改善在制度面上的"},{"start":12042.239,"end":12064.478,"text":"不足法規上不足的部分我們現在已經提出了修法的計畫跟草案你這個修法的計畫呢你預計預計什麼時候可以出來你們提出了這個職業安全衛生法我們已經送行政院了要嚴重的這個來這個罰則嘛那個跟我們說明我們已經送行政院了預計希望這個會期就送到立法院"},{"start":12065.137,"end":12089.208,"text":"這一個會期你的這個會期是到什麼時候呢這個會期延會到7月底啊所以你的意思是到7月底我們現在才4月30號耶你送到行政院你什麼時候送行政院這個禮拜我們已經送到行政院了已經送出去了嗎因為明天是5月1號耶這個禮拜我們已經送到行政院了所以你是這個禮拜什麼時候送出去的"},{"start":12089.926,"end":12114.39,"text":"我們其實昨天已經送到行政院了你就昨天送出行政院很好加油那你預計什麼時候可以送出來因為你今天昨天你是4月29號那你如果說要到7月30號才會出委員會那這個我會緊張勞工也會緊張委員不是這個意思我的意思是說我們已經送到行政院但是現在要進入到行政院的法治程序"},{"start":12114.83,"end":12132.122,"text":"當然他有程序你要去加油啊你要去溝通啊我們一直在跟行政院溝通所以我們預計是希望在五月或者是這個五月之間的前後希望能夠趕快送到立法院你這麼講我只知道稍稍可以"},{"start":12132.802,"end":12156.968,"text":"可以安心一點點也就是希望下個月可以行政院出來送到立法院因為我們已經送到行政院了所以你們必須要去加油這個是大家非常關注的一個議題因為我們知道國際勞工組織將人人享有安全衛生工作環境是視為勞工基本的一個人權依照主席總署告訴我們台灣營造業"},{"start":12159.068,"end":12179.843,"text":"就業人口約有120萬人120萬人裡頭的七成二也就是86萬人都是基層技術工的這個勞工那每一個公安意外呢那每一個數字呢他的背後都是一個生命跟一個家庭所以你們提出的這一點我希望"},{"start":12180.383,"end":12195.255,"text":"你要繼續加油跟行政院趕快溝通下個月趕快送到立法院來那你認為我們現在已經修法在進行式當中你認為預期效果會如何你認為能夠下降多少人數 請教"},{"start":12196.82,"end":12221.821,"text":"我想我們不是很容易估說一個修法後面會像你們做一個修法一定有你的KPI指數你大概的方向到底是怎麼樣因為你一定有目標嘛才會提出這樣的修法第一個是修法部分是在法制制度上面做出一個強化但是就像我們也在研擬說到法就算修了或者現在法也有可是還是有一些部分在落實的層面上"},{"start":12223.182,"end":12244.822,"text":"法通過之後我們在落實的時候我們的辦法還是要出來啊你怎麼樣的監督機制落實這些除了宣傳除了稽查這些都是必要相關的配套辦法我們會盡力做然後我們當然也希望在這個死亡的人數上或者是重大職災的人數上面有一個更顯著的進步"},{"start":12245.503,"end":12273.501,"text":"好 你一個更顯速的進步我也希望我們能夠達到那接下來本席要跟你討論還是過勞之島還勞工假政府的表態那之前本席在這個總質詢的時候也跟你討論過也跟院長討論過那你當時回答本席我非常高興你回答說台灣工時有改善的空間那減少工時的有效方案之一"},{"start":12274.521,"end":12297.043,"text":"最直接的就是恢復我們過去砍的國定假日因為我們都知道我們比日韓這個時間我們都比較少這也是勞團團體長期的一個訴求當時你在當任立委的時候或者是你對這方面的努力你也都參與其中所以部長國民黨的法案在"},{"start":12297.523,"end":12319.238,"text":"委員會裡頭已經都有討論過而且送出委員會國民黨增加的五天的國定假日現在是等待協商的這個階段那麼行政院跟執政黨現在雖然還沒有版本但是我仍舊希望聽到你的方向 你的立場請教 支持嗎"},{"start":12320.387,"end":12336.039,"text":"跟委員說明因為國定假日相關的法規它的組的單位其實是內政部但是我們勞動部在這個過程裡面也都參與跟行政院當然你是非常重要的一個角色我們確實是認為國定假日的調整是有討論的正面討論的空間我們的態度一直是這樣"},{"start":12342.904,"end":12361.895,"text":"所以一直是這樣嗎 因為你在第十屆當然立委的時候你也連署你們這個貴黨的這個民進黨的現在執政黨的委員的提案所以目前為止你也是認為增加國定假日的這個修法是有討論的空間而且你贊同這個方向嗎"},{"start":12362.723,"end":12388.712,"text":"我覺得這個議題是有正面討論的空間正面討論的空間也就是支持那我再請教既然你身為勞動部長那為什麼我們的行政院不提版本有沒有預計要提版本我想這部分可能要問這個法規的主管機關那你擔任勞動部長你認為這個有討論空間你支不支持政府應該要有行政院版出來"},{"start":12389.884,"end":12411.758,"text":"我要說的是說因為你現在談的是法案那法案的本身就可能要問這可能要是你都是參與其中而且你以前擔任立委你也都連署過也提案過所以本席希望這你當然也給了本席一個正面的方向也就是這個有很"},{"start":12413.239,"end":12432.611,"text":"這個正面討論的空間非常好我也希望你能夠促成這也是老團長期最需要的一點好 加油好 謝謝楊委員 謝謝部長接下來請張家俊委員 張家俊委員 張家俊委員不在請鄭天才委員"},{"start":12461.838,"end":12489.051,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請部長請部長這位好 部長好剛提到勞工的放假本來勞工的放假是在勞動部主管的法例裡面本來在那邊"},{"start":12490.535,"end":12517.484,"text":"是第九屆的立法院為了一律一修的時候把它修了就不能再依內政部的依內政部的規定是這樣是這樣來的而且那個這個是違反這個這個法律為什麼呢內政部現在所定的這個辦法所有的紀念節日的那個辦法"},{"start":12518.325,"end":12537.556,"text":"沒有法律的授權是違反行政程序法這是我們中華民國唯一大家一起適用的放假都是違反行政程序法沒有法律授權的法規命令這個是補充好今天很重要的這個議題這個"},{"start":12540.874,"end":12562.154,"text":"在五一勞動節明天我們今天在談勞工職場預防職業災害及廠場墜落事故的檢討以精進作為的一個專題報告非常非常重要的一個議題從今天勞動部的報告裡面也提到"},{"start":12564.495,"end":12568.657,"text":"長場墜落事故檢討及精進作為裡面的統計資料全國111年到113年重大職業災害死亡人數總共907人其中墜落有444人 佔48.9%"},{"start":12589.417,"end":12616.237,"text":"那營造業以營造業最多營造業墜落死亡302人佔68%為最高而原住民的勞工最多的就是在這個營造業所以我們常常會接到這樣的一個鄉親不幸的事件然後要常常去協助協調"},{"start":12620.054,"end":12642.671,"text":"這些我們的勞工相關的這些死亡的無論是職債的賠償還是勞工沒有勞保這些相關很多很多的問題所以我們深深的去了解這些我們的一個鄉親的痛苦"},{"start":12643.809,"end":12650.852,"text":"所以在這麼高的比例,營造業每年墜落造成近百人死亡,佔營造業職災死亡人數60%至70%"},{"start":12656.96,"end":12683.679,"text":"所以你這邊提出的分析原因以建築工程勞工以電梯井施工價及屋頂修站等場所當然這只是幾例指示這其實是很多元的一個造成的一個相關的這些原因所以部長在這樣的一個情形之下去年也特別定為營造業打擊年"},{"start":12686.608,"end":12705.207,"text":"也表示勞動部確實也在重視這個部分但是怎麼樣去當然要先了解原因了解原因才能夠去解決這些怎麼樣去設法解決這些問題這個主要原因是哪些"},{"start":12707.691,"end":12726.148,"text":"跟各位說我們包括在法規上面在制度上面其實有強化的空間包括這些工地的文化層層轉包的責任的切分其實常常造成在究責上面的困難這第一個所以這部分我們提的修法第二個確實我們也該"},{"start":12730.664,"end":12757.931,"text":"確實我們也看到其實有一些在這個工地公安的文化上面其實沒有落實的部分那也包括可能會有一些這個工地裡面管理那這個關於這個這個黃安衛他的投入不足的部分那也包括業主的這個責任其實照理來說業主在這裡面其實是有最多的這個營收可是他擔負的責任卻"},{"start":12758.871,"end":12780.169,"text":"很難追究這些部分我們都做了檢討所以我們也提了修法的計劃那我們也要有一些新的執行上面的做法好非常謝謝這個其實我一直是難以想像我因為我過去念大學的時候從台大大學"},{"start":12781.773,"end":12808.329,"text":"羅斯福路四段我禮拜六禮拜天就騎腳踏車到士林那時候士林正在開發我的舅舅是一個小包工去那邊我不會板磨啦我是不會我只會挑板磨挑板磨在這樣的一個那個年代的過程好像這個墜樓的事件發生意外的病反而不多"},{"start":12809.758,"end":12838.829,"text":"反而現在這個比例我覺得是很納悶以現在的工程技術包括設施設備應該都在精進才對啊怎麼又產生這些問題其實剛剛部長你有提到轉包又轉包是一個很重要的轉包又轉包一個大樓好了一個大樓一個公司"},{"start":12841.055,"end":12863.371,"text":"負責水泥的是一個,轉包又轉包,剩下雇主是要5、6個、3、4個。負責板模的,又轉包又轉包。負責鋼筋的,轉包又轉包,然後沒有結合。對不對?就產生這些啊。"},{"start":12864.608,"end":12886.71,"text":"我做板模的,釘板模的,就因為鋼筋的那個氣塊出了問題,我受害,或是說板模的出了問題,鋼筋的受害,類似像這樣的。所以這個部分,除了法之外,法律的,剛剛你有提到這個幾個幾個重要的部分。"},{"start":12888.576,"end":12903.714,"text":"所以尤其是那個轉包轉包那個部分真的是一個需要特別解決的部分因為時間的關係所以相關的就是郵箱臨時工派遣工以前的沒有的東西現在都有了派遣工"},{"start":12905.067,"end":12930.17,"text":"所以類似像這樣的所以這個部分一併的來加強雖然你們已經把草案送到行政院但是相關的這些需要再強化的部分能夠再強化好 謝謝委員的提醒 謝謝好 謝謝曾委員 謝謝部長接下來請麥玉珍委員來做詢問"},{"start":12944.967,"end":12947.229,"text":"謝主席有請部長有請部長部長好我要請教你一下我們勞動部的霸凌案是不是我們前部長抱歉下台才逮捕你當勞動部長對嗎"},{"start":12975.987,"end":12994.843,"text":"呃 我的 我到老公公 到老公公是不是這樣子的行政院邀請我到老公公做部長的工作所以我們王一川立委才有這個機會就遞補立委這樣是不是事實是嗎"},{"start":12999.557,"end":13020.091,"text":"這個是事實嘛所以我們為勞工的權利當一個媽媽孩子往生的痛你能感受得到嗎但是呢到現在他又收到一個冷冰冰的不起訴書這樣子的痛我們當媽媽的人"},{"start":13022.304,"end":13046.083,"text":"有這種痛求助無門你有感受得到嗎賴委員我跟妳說明我現在是掃時間的官司就勞動部的調查我是認真有霸凌但是不起訴這是司法是檢調的部分所以我們就是說你的態度是如何我的態度人大認為這是霸凌啊人大認為就是霸凌啊"},{"start":13050.782,"end":13067.134,"text":"我現在在問你的我國公安意外的現在就是平船但是呢今年上半年還未完成已經發生多起的像台中的火力發電廠施工"},{"start":13068.015,"end":13081.359,"text":"工人高度的衰落還有雲林管縣修查人員兩個人也是中毒不治台大醫院外牆的鷹架也倒塌等等根據勞動部統計在2024年因為重大職災死亡人數"},{"start":13091.283,"end":13100.274,"text":"287人也是因為平均1.25天就有一個勞工死亡這都是人命不是數據其中重大的職災"},{"start":13104.591,"end":13126.889,"text":"列有就是只在列中有就是一直高風險的營造業居高不下的就是7年大家都要問你的我們勞動部職安署的設定希望墜落死亡人數低於68人以下但是光半年"},{"start":13128.32,"end":13153.86,"text":"上半年的墜落死亡就高達了40人當時的判斷數據就是難以如願降低嘛那請教部長勞動部在七年的下半年當初有做出內部檢討或者階段性的改善還有精進的作為下半年的檢討後的成效又如何"},{"start":13154.6,"end":13182.984,"text":"都是人命啊 當然跟委員說明我們當然做出檢討我們也做出會精進改善的作為這裡面包括修法的計畫也包括跨部會的合作那也包括我們會把一些高風險的這些廠廠然後列為重點會去勞檢跟稽查的對象我們其實有列了一系列相關的改進的作為就是不希望再發生這個類似的這些重大治安事件"},{"start":13183.965,"end":13208.605,"text":"是啊 但是我們沒有看到成效如何 我不是說勇敢我們有做 就是要檢討 但是到我們去年就是有總共就有83案就是營造業的墜落死亡每一個數據代表的是一個家庭一個家庭的生命 背後更有一個就是"},{"start":13210.286,"end":13224.757,"text":"一個人則有一家人所以這個是我們整個家庭的痛就是顯然我們勞動部的設定就是營造業的最落把擊年但是呢我們的政策"},{"start":13225.558,"end":13249.632,"text":"都是口號我們沒有看到的效果所以我們希望針對這個部長是不是有具體不是只是預期降低的數據而已實施的跨部會的效果在哪裡因為我們是看到的就是相比說英國新加坡日本營造業"},{"start":13252.385,"end":13267.356,"text":"墜落死亡为40%南韩约57%但是我们国家高达60到70%大部分的建筑工程劳工比如电梯警或者是施工的价等等"},{"start":13269.777,"end":13280.723,"text":"所以造成的所以我們要如何預防這些要怎麼樣說落差那麼大我們是不是有去拿別人的我們來檢討我們怎麼去落實怎麼去發布會我們要的是實際有幫助"},{"start":13288.047,"end":13316.172,"text":"不是是檢討在檢討這個是被公安慰的話我們人民勞工不想要停要的是實際有效的我跟委員說明該檢討的部分我們當然正在檢討但是我也不同意要說都是口號並不是其實是這個逐年是有一些改善可是改善的幅度可能不符合大家原本的期待"},{"start":13316.952,"end":13339.901,"text":"可是也並不是什麼都沒有做所以你們做了你們覺得的效果在哪裡嗎有做的效果在哪裡我覺得我們有加強的空間我們有加強的空間所以我們也是覺得有加強的空間在制度面法制面所以我們才提出修法的草案跟計劃這也是一個具體的我們希望能夠改善的行動"},{"start":13341.266,"end":13343.386,"text":"我們看到的是說我們現行的建築法還有職業安全衛生法都有有停工的規定但是呢我們看到裡面沒有就是說定期還有通常改善後的復工查"},{"start":13363.291,"end":13381.936,"text":"就是我們大包小包中包都無法去落實所以說我們希望說參考有沒有原意重大的違規或者重大公安意外有沒有增加一個期限不是說他們送計畫過來報告檢討你們就會給他們復工"},{"start":13386.397,"end":13400.473,"text":"根本說明我們現在也在檢討停復工的一些條件包括如果要復工的話重大的這個職安或者公安事件發生的話我們會要求要系統性的風險都改善才會復工"},{"start":13402.895,"end":13427.292,"text":"他可能不是一個固定的期限說兩個禮拜還是一個月可能不是這樣而是他要把這些系統性的風險都做出具體的改善作為才能夠復工他可能時間是比一個月更長的所以說你們沒有要求說重大的就會說時間或者說他們提出來也要提出來嘛"},{"start":13430.44,"end":13443.136,"text":"遠東新司機的這個化纖廠的事件裡面停工了以後我們現在要求他要系統性的改善他的風險他的停工時間現在已經兩個多月了所以並不是我只是畫一條線說你知道兩個禮拜還是一個月"},{"start":13446.52,"end":13465.613,"text":"就可以讓他復工並不是這樣子的是看他的系統性的風險能不能夠真的被克服跟管理我們希望能夠把復工的條件能夠更加強落實到這邊很好我們要的就是實際的作業或者是有效的你要來報告不是我們不希望說只要是檢討我們在檢討或者是寫計畫這是我們現在正在做的"},{"start":13470.816,"end":13482.546,"text":"有效的對大家有幫助的還有剛才有很多人問我也是很關心這一塊目前我們多少移工來做營造業還有我們在那麼危險的工作我們本級的訓練就不足了但是我們移工的訓練又如何"},{"start":13497.679,"end":13522.912,"text":"這麼危險還有說用什麼方式還有用什麼語言的效果如何有嗎這個是不是可以具體給我我們確實現在是希望移工都進場的移工都能有職安卡那職安卡目前其實有設定多國語言但委員說的沒有錯移工相關的安全訓練它會涉及到它會多了一個語言的挑戰這部分我認為我們是要更大的落實"},{"start":13524.653,"end":13541.633,"text":"讓這個不同語言都能夠讓移工可以得到相關的安全安全相關的訊息的部分我們需要做的更透徹但是現在有嗎我們已經開放這樣子的營造業有移工這個安全的措施這個方法有嗎還是完全沒有還是怎麼樣"},{"start":13542.634,"end":13545.175,"text":"我們可以把相關的資料再提供給你們相關的提供給我就是關於這樣子的訓練過程還有說我們希望我們的勞動部跟其他部會真的是應該就是說正式制度面還有就是執行面雙重的施淩這個狀況我們要用政策不能只是口號啦設定的就是數據"},{"start":13568.821,"end":13592.34,"text":"幫助目標就為了這件事情還要檢討報告這不是意外發生後就是紙上談兵 紙上的作業但我們勞工的命不是一個數字或者在紙上寫而已我們希望的就是勞動部真的動起來跟各個部會因為不管是我們本級的勞工或者外級勞工"},{"start":13593.661,"end":13618.391,"text":"每一個勞工都是媽媽心目中的寶貝這個生命是很可貴的所以希望你要重視這件事情不要去招搖這樣更對不起勞工我們沒有招搖那我們也是用這個非常審慎的心態在看待這件事情的但我覺得不要隨便說我們招搖好 謝謝部長"},{"start":13623.016,"end":13628.922,"text":"部長不會招搖也不會招搖接下來請鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在請陳培宇委員好謝謝主席那有請部長謝謝勞動部部長"},{"start":13647.001,"end":13663.902,"text":"好 部長午安明天就是五一勞動節其實有非常多的委員在我前面都已經提出了不管是職場霸凌 國定假日 退休保障那這個我們就不再贅述但是我想要跟部長討論另外一個事情在部長您過去擔任立委期間你長期關注的淨零轉型當中"},{"start":13665.202,"end":13694.762,"text":"跟所謂的勞工有關的其實是公正轉型那在TK的報告裡面我們可以看到目前他們預估預估相關的計算受到淨零轉型衝擊的勞工人數會來到230萬人那立即性影響到立即性的會是200萬人那整體來說也就是說這個數量其實非常非常龐大那我相信部長您現在從立委的位置移動到勞動部長的位置我相信這件事情應該也還是部長您所關心的事情對不對"},{"start":13695.402,"end":13705.213,"text":"是當然還是很關心好那我們來實際看一下他們現在的訴求來下一張目前他們的訴求有三個第一個是關於所謂的高碳洩漏風險產業他們認為應該要修法規範擬定所謂自主減量計劃的時候"},{"start":13710.239,"end":13738.741,"text":"要先跟工會進行協商來確保勞工在這個過程當中他們的權益有受到保障還有就是過往的對話機制他們認為不夠法制化有沒有機會法制化這件事情強化勞工的聲音在整個公正轉型過程當中的參與還有他們的權利那當然最後另外的是跨部會的問題跟環境部有關他們的訴求是碳費費率審議會應該要納入工會代表那我想前面兩個訴求跟部長您比較相關可不可以請部長就前面兩個"},{"start":13739.622,"end":13764.111,"text":"他們的訴求告訴我們你們目前的為止的準備跟相關的回應跟村委員報告其實農部很願意來跟環境部那也包括相關產業主管機關來合作那在產業面對氣候要減碳或者是說淨零轉型的路上那我們確實是需要把勞工相關的權益給保護好"},{"start":13765.311,"end":13793.33,"text":"所以我們其實也很願意來跟環境部一起來討論如何在企業的減碳計畫中讓工會或者是勞工朋友有更多機會來了解跟更多的參與的角色這部分我們很願意來跟環境部一起來做這部分的研擬那甚至我們也在思考我們也希望可以成立是不是一個跨部會的平台來做相關的資源編列的整合來推動"},{"start":13794.531,"end":13811.234,"text":"可能更具永續或者是氣候友善目標的一些訓練或者是就業的計畫那這部分希望能夠讓我們的產業跟勞工在這個可能進行轉型的過程裡面有更多支持的力量這都我們希望可以更進一步來推動好"},{"start":13812.455,"end":13840.709,"text":"我非常開心聽到部長甚至提到所謂跨部會平台的計畫透過兩個部會的合作不管是相關的民間資訊或是民間的聲音或者是政府的資源怎麼嫁接起來因為部長剛剛講到一個非常重要的事情在勞工從事勞動工作這麼長的時間當中他確實得跟著時代的轉變不斷的增能但增能這個事情剛剛勞動部講到甚至相關就業計畫的輔導我們都非常期待後續可以看到很棒的進度那這個部分當然不是說了就算"},{"start":13841.469,"end":13859.344,"text":"後續會再追蹤那也會再跟勞動部跟環境部一些時間所以我們希望可能接一段時間跟環境部起來討論甚至來找我們的工會的朋友或者是相關關心的團體我們就一起來做這方面的討論好這個部分我們辦公室會再持續追蹤那接下來最後一題就是"},{"start":13860.064,"end":13871.277,"text":"3月19號我有拜託部長關於在勞動權益的部分尤其在兒少15到19歲的這個部分那當時部長快速的說會帶回去討論那我就想要確定一下目前的進度為何謝謝"},{"start":13874.656,"end":13894.551,"text":"在關於兒少的就業權益包含他們現在可能是弱勢少年因為年紀輕 經驗少相對找到的工作可能心思也不是太好又遇到所謂高風險的工作環境那目前在兒少法修法的時候呢衛福部說可能會把相關34到36刪除那當時勞動部這邊也有一些自己的立場"},{"start":13895.251,"end":13920.762,"text":"那還有就是在我們行政院角度或是勞動部的高度有怎麼樣可以更積極協助這些兒少打工的或者是實習生他們在相關的工作場域他們的權益可以受到保障他們的生命可以受到保護來謝謝部長我們應該有把這些相關的議題其實納入到目前包括我們之前參與行政院召開的全國兒少政策的研商會議裡面包括我們的兒少職場安全衛生權益小組裡面放進來討論"},{"start":13922.523,"end":13949.637,"text":"所以他是院等級的討論會議?行政院裡面是有一個相關的研商會議但我們部裡面在3月26號其實有召開我們這個也是一個跨部會的關於兒少職場安全衛生的權益小組的會議那我想我可以再把我們這開會的狀況在相關的資料再提供給陳委員好時間有限那我就想我們之後再跟勞動部所資如何在跟衛福部合作的平台上協助這些兒少的事情好謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":13952.512,"end":13964.699,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長接下來請黃學文委員來做詢問謝謝主席 我們請部長請部長"},{"start":13972.541,"end":13987.093,"text":"黃委員好 部長好 部長我剛剛從早上聽到現在其實很多委員都一直關心我們公安的議題那我想請教部長就是說在去年台灣重大的職災總共奪去了287條人命那幾乎剛剛委員提到幾乎"},{"start":13997.301,"end":14016.21,"text":"1.2天一天兩天之中就有一個人死掉那另外就是說在這個職災當中這個全失能或者是永久部分失能或者是暫時全失能的這個傷害那在去年我們就看到就有一萬四千多人就是有這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":14017.31,"end":14040.865,"text":"那我這個是僱主有通報的那僱主如果沒有通報的話我想這個數字應該是更高所以我想請教就是說部長針對這一部分因為剛剛很多委員也有提到就是說營造業的部分那營造業很多可能就是臨時工或者是派遣工可能早上在這個派遣的這個單位然後今天來"},{"start":14046.768,"end":14050.23,"text":"馬上他就把他派到營造營造的這個地點完全都沒有受到什麼樣的訓練也許對公安的這種嘗試完全是沒有所以會造成譬如說墜落這麼多或者是直災的狀況這麼多我想請教部長未來我們在勞動部的這個部分我們要怎麼去預防"},{"start":14072.102,"end":14096.728,"text":"那另外就是說呃層層發包的這個部分可能也把這個責任層層的就這個轉轉出去了嗎所以要怎麼樣讓這個企業你比如說我今天如果有一棟大樓要蓋的話那這個企業他怎麼樣也要有一些責任而不是把這個責任全部都轉到這個中包小包小小包把這個責任全部都轉出去"},{"start":14097.688,"end":14111.656,"text":"所以我想聽一下部長對於未來這樣子的一個狀況你們有什麼樣的因應方式跟黃媛說明確實現在在很多的工地裡面這個層層轉包是一個目前現況的樣態"},{"start":14114.076,"end":14143.816,"text":"那這個層層轉包的狀態其實也對於很多在這個公安問題上面的究責產生了很多的困擾跟挑戰所以這也是為什麼我們其實現在在這個治安法裡面那我們也希望接下來是要指定一家廠商來做相關責任的統合那有這個責任的統合才有辦法把這些不同很複雜的工程界面在風險上面做一個比較有效的管理這是第一個"},{"start":14143.956,"end":14162.177,"text":"所以這個也是比方我們在去年的全聯的大火的台中全聯大火的事件裡的時候其實看到他們因為這個這個拼心發包或切分的太多所以造成責任很難管理的情況那我們現在也看到比方說在中捷的事件裡面"},{"start":14163.058,"end":14184.927,"text":"那業主比方說當時的這個業主他其實是台灣很大的一個相關的企業可是在這個終結的世界裡面卻很難去究責於他所以我們把業主的責任也放進來所以這幾個部分都是我們在制度面上面對於究責希望有一個新的制度上面的強化我們具體的這個修法的跟制度改善的作為是"},{"start":14185.307,"end":14207.703,"text":"好那現在就是這個職安法那職安法的話我知道上個月就是我們勞動部已經預告了就是職業安全衛生法修法草案那就是預告到4月11號那我想接下來就是說你們這邊的程序或者是進度怎樣是不是可以請部長先做一個說明"},{"start":14209.094,"end":14225.788,"text":"我們已經在這個禮拜送行政院了所以接下來大家就會進入到行政院的這個法制的程序裡面那我們也會希望跟行政院來盡量來爭取那儘速的能夠完成在院裡面的審議然後趕快送到立法院來"},{"start":14226.568,"end":14240.991,"text":"好 那接下來我也想請教就是說其實一個公安意外的發生剛剛講的也許營造業它可能就是層層發包那其實很多勞工他如果"},{"start":14242.673,"end":14265.971,"text":"職災發生了第一個他也許希望能夠透過這個訴訟來究責那有時候因為訴訟這個期間也非常的長也許這個訴訟可能一年兩年那如果這個勞工他的傷害他也許需要急需要用這個用錢那這樣子的話其實我想請教就是說如果有類似這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":14267.712,"end":14297.058,"text":"勞工也許會碰到他急需用到一些經費也許這個企業或者是這個企業主他想要跟勞工做和解也許到最後勞工就是直接用和解的方式來處理掉這樣的一個公安事件其實有時候對勞工來講並不是那麼的公平所以我想請教勞動部未來如果有類似這樣的一個狀況第一個我們要怎麼樣去協助勞工"},{"start":14300.675,"end":14312.172,"text":"跟委員報告其實現在職債勞工通常在發生職債以後他就很無助所以我們在目前22個縣市都有這個我們的職業災害的專業服務人員他會及時的接觸這個勞工"},{"start":14317.159,"end":14338.308,"text":"那當然會提供剛剛委員提到的他需要一些這個職業債補償或是申請債保的給付包括他需要一些社會資源我們這個個案服務人員都會逐萬的去協助他是好所以你們針對這部分你們也有就是說如果真的意外發生的話你們在地方政府嗎"},{"start":14339.048,"end":14354.101,"text":"還是在地方政府其實在地方我們有補助然後在地方政府然後就是所謂的PASS那他會有個案性的方式來去協助我們很多職災的勞工好那其實剛剛講的真的如果一旦這個職災發生其實"},{"start":14355.882,"end":14378.257,"text":"可能就會影響到整個家庭的經濟狀況所以我也希望就是說勞動部針對這部分勞工的部分我們真的應該要把他接住因為也許他因為發生這樣的事情整個家庭經濟狀況就一落千丈所以我們希望就是說勞動部站在勞工的這個立場然後更多提供更多的協助那另外就是說我們在勞動部這邊每年"},{"start":14379.037,"end":14402.908,"text":"就是有這個全國勞檢員編制員額原本是這個2024年是1033人那實際在職是890人那其實還有還不足的部分那另外就是說我想請教就是說在106年監察院那時候就已經有就是糾正勞動部就是勞檢員人力不足的這個問題那勞檢員在第一線服務的時候其實"},{"start":14407.85,"end":14434.473,"text":"第一個可能就是高危險高危險那而且我們發現就是說這些勞檢員多半都是聘用而不是正式的這個公務人員大部分都是聘用那聘用的話有的根本也不適用勞基法或者是薪資升遷或職癌這個職癌的這個發展其實處處受到限制那另外我剛剛提到就是說他只要是"},{"start":14435.133,"end":14460.74,"text":"去第一線勞檢其實是真的還蠻危險的可能有時候會碰到僱主這個就是企業主的惡言相向我相信應該你們自己本身也會聽到很多那不只是言語的這個辱罵或者是有時候是肢體的衝突都有可能發生那我想請教部長就是說在之前的這個監察院就有特別提到就是說勞檢員不足也有跟你們提出糾正"},{"start":14461.58,"end":14486.637,"text":"那另外就是說多半的這個老檢員都是這個用聘用人員那未來像類似這樣的一個狀況你們是要怎麼去改善跟跟黃委員說明其實我們其實之前已經有爭取老檢員他的這個危害的加級大概五千元到三千元的這個經費那我其實到部裡面以後我自己也感覺很"},{"start":14488.539,"end":14502.733,"text":"跟治安署討論好幾次我們確實發現勞檢人在面對很多他的這個工作的場合裡面會有很多對他很不利或甚至威脅性的挑戰所以我們其實也定我們也會推動一個勞檢人的支持的方案"},{"start":14503.294,"end":14524.004,"text":"那也包括是讓他的專業能力跟他的工作支持都能夠相關的提升那現在目前正在把這個計劃的專案包括經費的編列我們正在規劃都是希望讓勞檢員其實可以有一個更支持系統性支持的後盾那不要讓勞檢員個人去面對現場在執行業務的時候的那些風險"},{"start":14524.784,"end":14539.271,"text":"因為有的時候那過程就會讓可能老幾人個別會覺得很挫折或者是會有人身上面的安全那這部分我們其實也跟治安署我們這邊在訂立相關的計畫要來提出好那預計是什麼時候"},{"start":14540.291,"end":14553.488,"text":"因為我覺得你們其實我們之前有開過記者會那我們現在在做在目前持續推動中包括接下來可能相關經費的編列我們其實正在處理的是經費編列的規劃"},{"start":14555.31,"end":14578.74,"text":"好我們希望就剛剛我們提到這麼多不論是這個職業安全的檢查或者是勞動檢查其實我們都希望說在第一線的這些勞檢員都能夠第一個這個流動率不要那麼高第二個可能就是這個高危險的這個工作總是要有一些人要做那當然剛剛部長有特別提到就是說這個預算可能會這個勞檢員的薪資也許會"},{"start":14584.162,"end":14603.591,"text":"做一些調整加急加急會做一些調整我覺得這個對第一線的勞檢員也許也是一個鼓勵啦那我們最主要是希望就是說第一線的勞檢員在工作自己本身要去做勞檢或做職安的這個檢查我覺得應該自己本身也要保護好自己啦"},{"start":14603.991,"end":14624.889,"text":"所以我覺得希望就是說這個五一勞動節是明天那我們今天排這樣的一個案子我也希望就是說勞動部站在勞工的這個立場不論是這個工作的安全也好或者是這個職場的這個霸凌的這種種種的部分我希望就是說勞動部站在勞工的立場去想所有的政策"},{"start":14630.046,"end":14642.349,"text":"好謝謝接下來請何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員不在請王洪威委員王洪威委員王洪威委員不在請洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員洪孟凱委員不在請吳麗華委員謝謝主席有請洪部長來部長"},{"start":14661.361,"end":14688.017,"text":"部长好去年12月25号在台北市政府他们有办一个跨年晚会那当时呢就是有一个阿美族的青年他发生了一个从18米高的地方坠落那主要的原因是没有系安全带那再来呢如果我们去看他的类型他是属于非丁类而且是一次性的活动"},{"start":14688.997,"end":14705.833,"text":"所以這樣的一個樣態很特別但是在前天4月28日的國際工商日台北市政府前就聚集了一群人就是為了這件事而來 為什麼因為對於台北市勞動局的勞檢報告"},{"start":14708.442,"end":14724.353,"text":"和他們的家屬認為沒有還原真相那台北市的觀察局呢也沒有幫忙家屬爭取職災賠償所以這個部分我想問勞動部有沒有掌握到"},{"start":14726.932,"end":14749.418,"text":"跟委員報告這個整個案子一發生我們就有跟台北市的勞檢處這邊了解這個案情的狀況包括他一開始的停工到最後復工審查讓他可以復工這個過程中我們都有掌握到那後續的部分呢委員講的應該是他後續的有關於他的民事的賠償部分還有真相的還原呢"},{"start":14751.204,"end":14767.632,"text":"有真相才有賠償啊現在目前還是台北市勞檢處在做這個職業障礙的檢查報告我希望勞動部當然我知道六都的部分是由他們市府的勞動局但是我希望中央的勞動部也能夠介入慣性好不好"},{"start":14768.112,"end":14787.564,"text":"我覺得我們願意適時的在這個案子上面給予協助好謝謝部長的承擔那為什麼我也來提這件事就是因為113年勞動部特別訂定叫做墜落打擊年那當時目標訂定說希望能夠縮短縮小到68人"},{"start":14788.985,"end":14806.984,"text":"但是呢去年的年中其實就已經超過68人那從今年度的數據來看現在如果數據是4月15號截止的話呢墜落的有36人死亡看起來今年呢也很難達標"},{"start":14809.186,"end":14823.775,"text":"36是全应该是全产业是那就营造业是18人是那所以部长认为今年应该可以达成预定的目标跟各位说明我不会说啊我们很有把握"},{"start":14824.355,"end":14842.611,"text":"可是我只能說我們會很努力的來進行這個目標的達成所以我們很需要檢討嘛對不對那今天我們看一下專報有提到墜落事故的檢討跟精進作為我比較關注的是我要提醒"},{"start":14844.795,"end":14856.62,"text":"這個最弱的就是在我們重大職業災害當中最弱的就是佔48.9%就是一半那其中呢營造業是佔了68%"},{"start":14859.443,"end":14882.355,"text":"所以在這個部分我們可以看到像是電梯井的墜落施工架的墜落屋頂修繕的墜落它都是來自於沒有採取適當的防罪設施那其實我這幾年當立委這幾個類型我都有接觸處理過包括電梯井"},{"start":14883.351,"end":14903.289,"text":"所以在這裡我們可以看到跟其他幾個國家像南韓 美國 日本 新加坡我們的這個部分墜落的死亡殖災比例算是偏高的所以才會有墜落打擊年的一個訂定目標那我也要跟部長說您知不知道"},{"start":14904.19,"end":14913.058,"text":"我們目前全國五大最缺工的行業恰恰是原住民從事的前五大行業你知道嗎"},{"start":14915.066,"end":14935.119,"text":"這是很有趣的一件事就是我們都是在最高的工地印價上最深的礦業最遠的遠洋漁業那原住民的勞工每千人的職災率不但長期以來是高於全國的平均也高於產業的平均而且在這邊從事營造業的原住民主任當中"},{"start":14936.34,"end":14954.75,"text":"有55%沒有收到過公安職災預防的資料而且遇上職災的原住民勞工當中高達五成沒有拿到過任何法定的職災賠償也就是我們職安法裡面所訂定的最低的條件"},{"start":14955.53,"end":14975.061,"text":"所以這個很顯然就是資訊落差所以我想問勞動部有沒有掌握到原住民工人的職災率然後針對這種公安職災的預防有沒有想過用什麼管道去縮短資訊落差觸及到我們這些族人"},{"start":14977.265,"end":15003.047,"text":"跟委員報告確實這個原住民的部分他的從事的都是比較這個這個比較基層這個高風險的行業所以整個植栽的人數這部分跟植栽率目前我們都有掌握那至於說委員剛剛關心的怎麼樣觸及這個從業人員這個從業的族人那除了我們辦訓練外我們在宣導部分也盡量去到部落裡面去做宣導或是在這個營造工地"},{"start":15005.45,"end":15028.982,"text":"這個他在部落周圍的營造工地他可能在那邊從事我們的宣導也會要觸及到那個地方我要提的是說因為我是生活在部落的人如果連我都察覺不到那就是表示可能沒有什麼大的效果所以我希望這個部分要盡量的再想辦法要怎麼樣去觸及到族人知道這些資訊你這邊提的第二個問題因為第一個問題是關於職災一部分當然我們就應該來做出統計"},{"start":15033.204,"end":15061.826,"text":"來掌握那第二個部分我是認為恐怕我們是希望跟園民會來做一些更進一步的合作因為園民會可能有比我們更多的管道來觸及到族人我們可能有這方面的這個職災預防上面的資訊跟專業那也許園民會有相關的觸及到族人的通路那我們應該來跟他更合作我也來請我們的治安署來找園民會做一個專案的合作這樣好不好"},{"start":15062.486,"end":15087.839,"text":"你看喔光是講勞基法第59條勞工如果遇到職業災害傷害或罹患職業病死亡他其實是可以拿到5個月平均工資作為喪葬費跟40個月平均工資的死亡補償其實我們很多族人根本連這個都不知道那我們作為民意代表經常就是要幫助他們去協調去爭取"},{"start":15090.52,"end":15115.145,"text":"那當然這個是最低保障那有時候我們可以爭取到更高的倍數可是在這個當中我們會發現到原來很多的族人其實他能夠找上民意代表幫忙還不錯可是更多的族人是他連找民意代表幫忙他都不知道他自己有什麼權益他都不知道故族也不告訴他所以呢我要跟我們部長再報告一下"},{"start":15116.025,"end":15135.079,"text":"其實因為他們要規避災保法的通報的處罰 跟治安法停工的處罰所以族人說他們有一些工地的潛規則受傷的時候不能叫救護車 不能就近就醫 不能去住院 而且要說是交通意外"},{"start":15136.372,"end":15149.686,"text":"結果為了我們這些法律的一些處罰為了規避 雇主要規避結果本來是要保障變成更傷害所以部長你對這有什麼看法"},{"start":15151.777,"end":15172.148,"text":"跟委員說明其實這些規避說實話他也不是針對原住民是我們在很多的地方看到職災勞工僱主可能都有這樣子的這種我覺得確實是一個潛規則式的要求那當然這是我們不能夠接受的所以我們現在當然也是希望來改善"},{"start":15173.529,"end":15200.618,"text":"職災勞工的包括的通報的資訊那也包括這個通報的資訊跟接下來他可能在保險上面的給付的勤領之間這個包括他的程序我們也其實之前我們甚至開了一個工作坊那就希望來檢討這件事情所以從通報到後續的這個勤領給付甚至是到重建的工作這裡面有很多的程序設計我想我們都正在檢討要來調整"},{"start":15202.098,"end":15231.058,"text":"所以部長您就是剛好提到我這樣講的當然一方面勞檢很重要但是仍然發生高比例的墜落事件顯示勞檢它還是有限難以預防那特別是勞檢人員到底夠不夠那如何補充那甚至是您剛剛提到的就是關於有沒有受教育訓練因為我們很清楚的可以看到有接受教育訓練跟沒有接受教育訓練差很多啊"},{"start":15231.958,"end":15254.927,"text":"真的差很多啊這個很重要啊所以有什麼措施落實雇主與勞工之間的教育訓練這個非常重要看起來這是一個很有效的策略所以呢要著重所以特別最後就是本席就是希望要求說針對這個墜落打擊年我們要找到檢討之後有效的措施然後檢討修正"},{"start":15256.468,"end":15272.414,"text":"那落實勞檢如果人力不足就要補充那也希望檢討現在的非丁類像我剛剛提的那個類子就是非丁類而且是一次性的活動希望就這個部分也要去檢討然後關於教育訓練還有職安資訊的傳播"},{"start":15274.815,"end":15291.153,"text":"要去想到有效可以觸及到雇主與勞工的那也希望儘速修正職安法去提高沒有落實安全措施的這些雇主要怎麼樣去處罰他跟委員說明其實我們有做了一個原住民族的職災的預防的資訊網"},{"start":15293.055,"end":15318.318,"text":"可是這個我們做好以後我是覺得恐怕我們還是需要跟剛剛說跟園民會來合作不然我們自己做也許就放在那邊其實很多人不一定去看到他或在上面了解到資訊這部分我們是可以來加強的好謝謝部長我們跟勞動部一起繼續努力謝謝主席好謝謝吳委員謝謝部長接下來請徐新穎委員徐新穎委員徐新穎委員不在請蔡議員"},{"start":15319.508,"end":15344.401,"text":"蔡議員...蔡議員不在請委員...委員...委員要來,你上來請部長好,謝謝主席請部長,有要叫別人嗎?市長署長也來好了來,署長來"},{"start":15348.01,"end":15352.535,"text":"表委好部長好部長回答或署長回答都可以"},{"start":15354.596,"end":15378.446,"text":"我們在2023年的重大職災死亡的人數大概總共有300個人以產業比來看營造業的死亡人數佔比超過50%有151個人以災害的類型來看是以墜落滾落導致死亡的人數也高達47%那"},{"start":15382.72,"end":15409.472,"text":"職安署的資料是這樣子,就五年來營造工程業佔職災死亡的人數大概都是近五成的職安署也把營造工程業列為重點稽查的對象是什麼原因造成營造業的職災死亡人數高居不下"},{"start":15412.149,"end":15430.763,"text":"蘇長回答好了跟委員報告營造業他的工作樣態跟一般的工廠廠長是不一樣因為他每天的這個作業非常多的包商同時在作業那他之間的施工的界面勞工跟勞工或是包商跟包商之間"},{"start":15432.264,"end":15459.535,"text":"大概目前主要的問題是在現場的一個統合管理的部分造成這個它的一個風險一直存在所以會造成說這個第一線的作業勞工或許他不曉得因為他今天進來不曉得昨天的這個包商把哪一些安全防護做了移除他都不曉得所以這個部分目前在這個營造業裡面大概是最大的風險是在這個地方好 那署長既然知道原因那你們有沒有減災的策略"},{"start":15461.56,"end":15491.04,"text":"跟委員報告在策略部分我想還是要從法制面那目前我們也檢討目前在整個最上位的這個治安法看起來是在規定上是有一些漏洞所以我們目前是要去補這個每一層的包商都要去管理他現場的這個負責管理他現場的公安那執行面的部分大概我們現在也去調整一些做法就是說我們在這個整個比較過去比較高違規的或高實災的這些公立列管"},{"start":15492,"end":15520.04,"text":"然後頻率甚至說它這一兩年來發生兩線職災我們就會把它當作每個月去檢查一次這個執行面我們真的也在做再來就是教育訓練的部分那我想剛剛委員都提到這個部分怎麼去加強基層勞工的安全衛生的資能這個部分我們也在努力所以主委剛剛講的三個策略其中有一個是修法那修法的部分你們有什麼時候會提出來"},{"start":15522.495,"end":15534.88,"text":"修法的部分我們其實已經送行政院了那應該是接下來會在行政院的法治程序裡面我們希望也可以盡快的審議那要盡快那看能不能在這個會期我們希望能夠送到立法院裡面"},{"start":15538.752,"end":15563.945,"text":"有學者分析近年的職業災害的案例針對營建業的最多關鍵危害的因素提出了大概剛剛署長也都講了我還是希望你們能夠藉由工地設施的配置補當"},{"start":15565.459,"end":15593.3,"text":"還有工地本體防護不足跟沒有安全設施工地設施性能跟強度不足這三點還是必須要在不管法制面的健全也好現場的的勞動檢查也好必須要注意到所以這是弱勢面的部分對營造業的重大職災案件中又以臨時工"},{"start":15595.595,"end":15617.724,"text":"跟其他工種譬如說其他工種就是像清潔沒有辦法歸納的以這種臨時性的勞動力算是危害最高我不知道像臨時性的治安署這邊要怎麼提升治安的觀念跟訓練"},{"start":15620.516,"end":15643.75,"text":"跟委員報告 確實在一個工地裡面有時候會到十幾個包商的勞工都在現場那這個時候呢我們認為管理上就是最上包這個大包就是營造廠他要負責這個任務所以工地裡面不管進到他的場域裡面他都要負責這個職業災害的防止我知道 我是說因為臨時工他可能就是就是他"},{"start":15645.211,"end":15672.182,"text":"不是非常太在這個領域工作嗎臨時工進來特定的場域你們有沒有什麼特別的職安觀念的訓練是 確實因為如果是非常小的包商他有可能是只有一位到兩位這個部分就現在在部裡面這邊就要推動所謂的職安卡的教育訓練就是說這些無一定僱主的勞工人甚至我們都補助經費上六小時的課程"},{"start":15673.483,"end":15701.165,"text":"來強化他們的安全衛生的知識那像這一類的臨時工你們怎麼監督營造業投保 自災保險跟委員報告確實我們目前還是希望剛剛提到的這個最上位這個包商他在做入場管制的時候必須要去查到底這個今天進來的這些所有的工人"},{"start":15702.026,"end":15730.845,"text":"作為勞工是不是有投勞保或是投災保那個目前我們是要求這個最上包營造廠要善盡這個責任就是還是以最上面的包商為主還是要去落實啦因為工作的性質特別是以臨時工來講這個在經濟上通常是比較弱勢這個第一點第二就是他對工作的場域比較不熟悉所以更需要保險的支持好不好"},{"start":15734.899,"end":15735.12,"text":"我們依據"},{"start":15737.942,"end":15760.159,"text":"職業安全衛生法的相關規定政府機關除了政府機關或者5人以下的事業單位以外大概都必須要設置職安衛生管理人員我們現在是30人以上的事業單位依照規定必須要設置而且必須要報勞檢機構備查請問一下現在我們超過"},{"start":15766.361,"end":15780.381,"text":"5人未滿30人因為他有急劇的規定超過5人未滿30人的事業單位我們是怎麼確保或查核他有相關的設置"},{"start":15781.889,"end":15798.843,"text":"案件人員跟委員報告確實這個小微型企業30年以下目前法令沒有規定說一定要通報但是呢我們在這個規定上不一定說他這個這麼小還要在另外設一個老年人由雇主本身去接受20個小時訓練他還是可以擔任這個老年人"},{"start":15805.115,"end":15813.559,"text":"我們現在是這樣子齁就是剛才是5人以上30人未滿現在問的是30人以上100人這個級距按照勞動檢查的統計2023的統計數字在30到100人的製造業已經有設置"},{"start":15833.649,"end":15842.239,"text":"安全衛生人員的業者大概是七成七非營造業大概是六成四我請問一下這個設置比例"},{"start":15848.936,"end":15863.921,"text":"這個數字假如是對的原因在哪裡就是為什麼還有製造業還有大概兩成多然後非製造業還有大概三分之一沒有設置原因是什麼"},{"start":15865.471,"end":15883.746,"text":"跟委員報告確實那個勞安人員或職安人員他基本上也是會做一些異動那他有時候是因為在等待上課因為他這個我們外界的這個訓練的訓練單位他的班並不是每個禮拜開班所以他會因為"},{"start":15884.847,"end":15903.884,"text":"這個部分他需要去配合這個上課時間所以在這個時間如果被我們檢查到的話我們就會認定說你現在是沒有設置就是有的時候會有空窗期就是他的原本的人走了然後應該補的人就是可能還沒有取得資格署長的意思是不是這樣子"},{"start":15905.626,"end":15922.737,"text":"有部分是這樣子我覺得這個比率是真的有要大幅提高的必要我是認為這都是法規上面的要求把法規上的要求必須做到我覺得這部分"},{"start":15924.859,"end":15936.032,"text":"我會來加強要求那最後因為時間的關係所以我就直接講了部長曾經有講過就是勞檢人員其實工作很辛苦那勞動條件跟"},{"start":15939.635,"end":15965.28,"text":"職業安全衛生的法令能不能落實其實跟勞檢員息息相關那希望部長能夠在比較短的時間之內看如何讓我們因為我們的勞檢人力其實一直是有不足的那不足的原因大概部長也都知道那希望部長能夠部長也有講過考慮"},{"start":15969.795,"end":15980.725,"text":"提高薪資也好,加上9任的獎金也好,這個相關的工作可以做的,請部裡面這邊盡速進行好不好?好,謝謝部長,謝謝署長,也謝謝主席"},{"start":15994.09,"end":16000.233,"text":"好 謝謝我們接下來請陳英委員發言好 那個麻煩請部長跟展署林署長好 部長請 署長請陳委員好"},{"start":16022.117,"end":16023.598,"text":"台北市跨年晚會原住民青年墜落的重大職災案件"},{"start":16037.523,"end":16060.283,"text":"我想要請教一下 因為之前我有質詢要求 部長也發了公文說對於重大職災的檢查報告要提供給家屬 要完整提供給家屬那請問一下這件調查報告有沒有提供給家屬了"},{"start":16064.317,"end":16084.713,"text":"目前我們的規定就是要提供給家屬那委員是指就是家屬有收到了嗎因為從12月25號到現在已經是現在4月底了是 委員是指哪一個個案因為我們目前在行為要求12月25號的 是什麼台北市的那個對阿"},{"start":16088.106,"end":16114.28,"text":"那個委員不好意思我們可能要再了解一下對你如果不知道你就說你不知道沒有關係啦齁那所以你現在沒有掌握嘛沒有掌握說這個調查報告是不是有完整提供給家屬了我們再來了解一下好那我想你還我想有一件事更需要被了解的是說這個職災報告是否和事實吻合符合這件事情我想是更重要的齁"},{"start":16116.444,"end":16135.922,"text":"所以因为我为什么要在这里提出这样子的事情是因为在今年的4月26号其实也就没几天了那我来念一下我们刚好办公室有这个案例有接到陈情"},{"start":16136.582,"end":16146.936,"text":"那這個 左邊這個是勞工的一個自述的一個版本那右邊是檢查單位的調查 包括一個檢查單位的版本那我唸給大家聽"},{"start":16149,"end":16177.832,"text":"勞工自己寫說那天怪手在用布繩吊掛水泥寒管在旋轉至我頭頂上方約兩米高處要下降時突然布繩斷裂我原本要去把管扶正整個水泥寒管先砸到我的頭後來我往後倒失去意識二到三秒後清醒後我的左右腳完全被"},{"start":16178.732,"end":16203.278,"text":"完全被壓在破碎的水泥函管下 左腳完全變形公司要求我說 函管是用吊車吊掛的然後用怪手移位然後要我說 函管突然與布繩脫落 才會砸傷我不然他們說 不按照這樣講 沒有辦法請到保險董事長也有說 保險是勞檢"},{"start":16205.759,"end":16224.808,"text":"保險或是勞檢來問的時候家屬一律說不清楚他被這樣要求那目前右腳他的這個折骨骨折那左腳左腳踝是以下是截肢的好這是勞工的版本那麼檢查單位的這個版本卻變成這個樣子"},{"start":16227.189,"end":16252.502,"text":"丰和丰营造有限公司所雇劳工林宏伟那于工区内管制函管安装作业时与函管沟取配合挖土机移动函管时目视确认函管接口有无对齐于前述安装过程中脚部未离开函管接口处"},{"start":16253.901,"end":16276.592,"text":"導致積聚移動寒管時發生寒管壓狀靈元逐步致傷後隨靈元經送往林口長庚醫院救治經救治後靈元左腳腳踝以下截肢目前仍住院觀察中我想這兩個版本對照起來大家可以理解我們原住民老公是這樣被對待的"},{"start":16277.632,"end":16302.19,"text":"那你這個檢查單位的版本其實後來就變成是勞工自己的疏失了所以我舉這個例子只是要告訴你們也要鄭重提醒所以這個重大職災檢查報告檢查報告提供給家屬是很好但是你那個報告內容到底和事實符不符合我想這個就是你們要注意的"},{"start":16302.87,"end":16322.516,"text":"當然回到我所關心的這個跨年晚會的那個就是原住民青年墜落的事情我也希望你們去了解一下目前處理的狀況因為在這個禮拜一他們又開記者會在抗議你看從去年底12月發生到現在已經過了幾個月了"},{"start":16324.176,"end":16345.238,"text":"大家還在吵嘛那當然這個案件就是說如果他們有找對民意代表大家對法規很熟我們可以很快把它處理好但是如果他們沒有找對人的時候可能就是變成羅生門或者大家就吵翻天了那這個部分你們是不是可以在最短時間內了解再回報給本席"},{"start":16346.989,"end":16366.679,"text":"跟委員說明目前他的報告書還沒有送到就是去年跨年的這個案件他報告書還沒送到我們會來來跟他再來做詢問那第二個是我們會在這個案件因為這個案件社會很關注我們會來了解一下目前其實包括這個旨在的勞工他的家庭跟"},{"start":16368.171,"end":16376.716,"text":"跟台北市勞檢處目前在處理的狀況有必要的協助什麼時候可以去完成這個瞭解回報給本市今天嗎"},{"start":16384.181,"end":16413.079,"text":"我們時間要不要暫停 要不要直接說跟委員報告 那個報告書他現在已經送到署聯來那署聯這邊有備查 但如果說委員需要的話我們可以把好 那委員會後你們立刻提供那當然回到我們今天就是這個職災死亡最多的危害類型也就是最弱傷害的預防我想要請教就是首先是這個高速作業高價作業以及高空作業在法規跟實務上的預防措施是不是有所不同"},{"start":16416.395,"end":16442.995,"text":"跟委員報確實現在在法規上我本來是想問部長的應該是在名稱上有不同我想應該不只名稱上實質的處理上應該是非常的不同那事實上這個高速作業包括了高架作業跟垂降作業也就是大家熟知的高空作業那我們辦公室去查了非常多的資料才找到這張圖片"},{"start":16444.136,"end":16469.349,"text":"我们发现光是坠落灾害预防涉及的各种作业安全措施跟管理它是非常复杂也非常困难我想请教署长你们在定定坠落打击加强年的目标值的时候有没有想到降低30%其实是一个非常困难并且有高度挑战的目标"},{"start":16470.009,"end":16480.061,"text":"那你們在這個去年是否有掌握各種高處作業的這個災害現況然後設定具體的介入手段檢討實際發生災害的原因然後趕快來調查預防介入的方法嗎有沒有"},{"start":16489.96,"end":16502.695,"text":"呃謝謝委員確實啊剛剛委員在點出來的部分目前最高的在呃發生災害最高就是在屋頂作業還有施工下一些開口那我們大概都是針對這個部分在做呃檢查部分一定是重點部分就放在這裡是呃"},{"start":16507.237,"end":16531.364,"text":"檢查的重點我是說你們有沒有很快速的去調整預防介入這些方法不然你們設的這個百分之三十的目標值一直都沒有辦法達標啊是這個目標是很艱鉅那我們現在是常常是幾乎每個月會去看看目前發生的災害因為如果你們沒有做的就是說沒有的話或者沒有做得很好"},{"start":16532.384,"end":16547.263,"text":"可能就是說你們要達成這個目標感覺是在碰碰運氣啦那即使是你們真的達標了本席也要質疑因為我剛剛有舉那個案例了嘛可能在這個檢查報告跟統計上就是被做的手腳了嘛"},{"start":16548.597,"end":16571.034,"text":"我現在不是在亂講話因為你們已經就是被我抓到一些案例了嘛那再不然就是說說你們未來對於這個墜落預防會不會會不會要調整有一個設有一個新的目標也就是繼續加強打擊墜落那不會因為一次沒有達標就放棄了"},{"start":16573.651,"end":16599.958,"text":"我們不會因為一次沒有達標就放棄那我們會來調整一些更精進的做法來把這個目標趕快來達成所以會調整的是你們的做法而不是30%的這個目標是嗎我們今年還是會用這個這個去年的目標來作為我們的目標因為這個目標確實是有它的挑戰性那可是我想我們會再把做法上面做出一些精進"},{"start":16601.309,"end":16625.873,"text":"因為當初如果說設定目標是20%我想也是就可以達標了只是說我要肯定說你們企圖心很強但是預防介入的手段不夠精準而且你們的減災目標分配給各個檢查單位事實上也沒有多加過問說他們如何在打擊墜落你們都沒有問"},{"start":16627.074,"end":16642.304,"text":"所以我覺得說新署長上任呢應該要調整一下觀念就是說失敗不可恥但是你要檢討原因啦那即便你成功了你更要知道成功的原因你才可以維持嘛對不對"},{"start":16644.024,"end":16664.414,"text":"最弱它是非常困難預防的我們從查到資料到歸納出幾個原因包括第一線作業很難設置防罪設備開口的防護不易失座而且作業時間很短也怕麻煩以及使用個人防護具會降低工作效率"},{"start":16665.174,"end":16675.895,"text":"署長這些挑戰你有沒有想過說要怎麼克服畢竟光靠這個檢查你也沒有那麼多的人力不是嗎"},{"start":16678.317,"end":16701.289,"text":"是謝謝委員 其實剛剛部長也有提到我們現在是要先從法治面這邊去處理再來就是我們在這個檢查的部分一定要要求這個所謂的大包這個營造廠要負起這個責任因為確實裡面很多都是包商跟包商之間這個作業一時途徑方便還是要有這個最大包的工地好那我想我再來談一個比較實際的問題就是說"},{"start":16704.511,"end":16726.303,"text":"本席想要建議你們啦就是說職安法裡面不是有這個退避權嗎那當勞工朋友有足夠的教育訓練知道說他們跟他一樣的勞工是如何發生職災的那當他發現說作業現場不夠安全的時候他可不可以行使這個退避權"},{"start":16727.364,"end":16755.421,"text":"尤其是這個工程的這些小包商啊那一旦說這個小包商行使了退避權那他可以領有原來的薪資或部分的薪資嗎可以嗎跟委員報告現在的條文確實有這樣規定就是他如果是危險退避不能做不利的處分對啊但是你可以保證他們就是說特別是這些小包啊那他們如果行使了退避權他們可不可以領有原來的薪資或部分的薪資"},{"start":16758.065,"end":16769.278,"text":"目前是沒有 我們沒有收到這樣的個案申訴或是說有這樣的一個事業單位行使這個第一線的勞工有做這樣的一個叫做退避的部分"},{"start":16770.052,"end":16796.597,"text":"我想你們沒有收到並不是人家不想行使而是不敢因為行使了可能就領不到錢所以也有可能是因為害怕所以就你們遲遲到現在很快樂的說我們沒有接到任何的通報我想這個不是一件可喜可賀的事情所以我問這個問題是希望你們能夠宣示讓製作人說"},{"start":16798.477,"end":16816.963,"text":"有這樣的狀況發生小包他們可以行使退避權也可以保證可以領到他們的薪資你能不能做到現在依法是有這個權限空間的那你要讓他們讓他們有這個勇氣去行使啊"},{"start":16818.515,"end":16844.105,"text":"確實如果他因為除了法規上面的原因以外他如果遇到這樣的需要可是他不行使或不是他提出這樣的權利的話我覺得我們來思考一下對你們應該要主動出擊嘛因為就像我們在這個原住民的碎石祭儀假可以請一天返鄉去行使我們的責任但是問題是很多人不敢請因為怕請了就沒工作了"},{"start":16845.085,"end":16855.515,"text":"這是一樣的道理所以這個希望你們能夠主動出擊那實務上因為勞工擔心被貼標籤或者喪失薪資因此就不敢退避那就是說這個你們應該真的要"},{"start":16860.049,"end":16873.968,"text":"更要幫助這些勞工那基於自身保護的這個生命安全仍然是可以獲得一定的報酬不然就是我們職安法上規定的這個退聘權它就變成一個擺設性的花瓶了不是嗎"},{"start":16875.129,"end":16898.581,"text":"最後就是說要請署長你去檢討你們的宣導教材太複雜也太專業了看一下你們的這個墜落危害預防宣導的這個海報你看到密密麻麻這樣一個我這樣乍看之下我也不是很清楚說你們這個網站上的教材是要給這個安全衛生管理人員看的還是給勞工朋友看的"},{"start":16899.581,"end":16923.817,"text":"我也不曉得這個實際上貼起來它的那個比例是多大啦你看那幾張我就看得眼睛都灰了同樣的在開口的部分下一張簡報我們看一下勞工商人廁所開門之後人就踩空董醫生就掉到地下二樓宣告不治死亡然後再來看下一張就是這個是高空作業的也是非常危險還有再看這個屋頂作業的"},{"start":16925.765,"end":16952.152,"text":"也都就是看起來都是危險重重那我只知道說出事的都是第一線的勞工朋友那特別是很多都是我們原住民的同胞所以可不可以設計製作一些勞工可以輕易理解的教材或者針對我們這個在文化特殊性在語言上有特殊性的我們原住民或者是外籍勞工朋友可以懂的這些教材我想"},{"start":16953.673,"end":16971.47,"text":"這樣子一定對於這個整個防止墜落有很大的幫助也早日協助你們達到30%的目標好 關於教材的部分或者是資訊怎麼樣讓勞工朋友更容易掌握跟了解我想這部分我們就來改進好 謝謝"},{"start":16982.321,"end":17009.81,"text":"好,謝謝陳委員,謝謝這邊要提醒部長,因為剛剛在質詢的時候也怕今天耽誤太多時間了我還是要提醒一下,其實今天這個墜落的事情不是第一次討論我想也討論多次了我還是覺得有幾個面向可能要提醒部長要好好去看怎麼樣去規劃跟處理"},{"start":17011.969,"end":17030.524,"text":"其實勞動能力也不足啦,勞檢能力也不足啦,這看不看得到,你如果去落實把你的教育訓練可以普及,可以精準,我想我們很多多元補助這個產業界的這種教育企劃嘛,是不是要一併去做,看怎樣搭配嘛,去融入嘛,而不是額外再去,"},{"start":17031.184,"end":17051.592,"text":"再去辦什麼樣的教育訓練我覺得這是一個必須要去做盤整跟調整的一些事情那第二個我剛剛特別提到你的勞選能力確實不足到一定的程度了這個是不是可以快速的來做處理那第三個以我為例來講113.12人他的墜落製造業是大過營造業所以這個也是有不一樣的一個因素還有那個樣態的"},{"start":17060.596,"end":17080.922,"text":"的情況在改變所以在這邊就請部長是不是可以再多加辛苦、多加努力一些跟治安署這邊最後就是如果參與公共建設的標案又發生了墜落事情那是不是有什麼樣比較重的懲處方式"},{"start":17083.223,"end":17100.342,"text":"我想收工部門在做了一些決定,會帶動民間企業相關的一些重視,跟著這樣的腳步去做改善,或許就可以再降低某種程度的墜落人數比例。給勞動部做一個參考,"},{"start":17105.187,"end":17122.634,"text":"來本次會議訓導全部結束那現在處委現在決定第一報告集訓導完畢第二委員諮詢未及導入或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以順便導入委員另要求期限者從期鎖定那本次會議到此結束現在休息星期四上午九時繼續開會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16629","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16629","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e001fad9b8cd413af9e564336fc7700a1f7d7f547ae197440ede4273338b91dda5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查「保險法」15案：\n一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案。【後3案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第一百二十三條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-30T08:30:34+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T13:08:00+08:00","duration":16646,"影片長度":"04:37:26","委員發言時間":"08:30:34 - 13:08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1776.15846875,"end":1779.8372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1780.09034375,"end":1782.8072187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1783.2122187500001,"end":1785.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1785.6590937500002,"end":1788.7472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1789.2872187500002,"end":1789.3040937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1789.3040937500002,"end":1799.4290937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1799.7497187500003,"end":1803.5128437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1803.9178437500002,"end":1806.9215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1807.1072187500001,"end":1815.5447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1815.8990937500002,"end":1818.9703437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1819.59471875,"end":1851.7078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1851.9609687500001,"end":1875.7715937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1875.85596875,"end":1876.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1877.94846875,"end":1884.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1884.6647187500002,"end":1888.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1888.5797187500002,"end":1900.2403437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1900.4428437500003,"end":1903.5815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1903.6659687500003,"end":1907.3278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1907.3784687500001,"end":1915.4615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1915.78221875,"end":1921.3678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1921.55346875,"end":1927.2234687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1927.45971875,"end":1932.4209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1932.7415937500002,"end":1938.3778437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1938.6815937500003,"end":1943.9803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1944.0309687500003,"end":1949.2959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1949.4984687500003,"end":1952.8228437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1952.8903437500003,"end":1964.3653437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1966.3059687500001,"end":1970.7440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1971.3515937500001,"end":1977.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1977.8315937500001,"end":1977.8484687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1979.1815937500003,"end":1989.3065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1989.32346875,"end":1992.5128437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1992.56346875,"end":1992.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1992.6140937500002,"end":1999.7859687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2000.2415937500002,"end":2004.6122187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2004.8484687500002,"end":2021.8753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2023.0228437500002,"end":2030.2284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2032.9790937500002,"end":2034.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2035.5609687500003,"end":2036.8434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2037.6028437500001,"end":2038.9359687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2040.25221875,"end":2048.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2049.48284375,"end":2052.1153437499997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2053.22909375,"end":2055.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2056.51971875,"end":2057.4647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2057.97096875,"end":2063.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2063.82659375,"end":2067.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2068.8047187500006,"end":2072.3990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2073.09096875,"end":2077.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2078.3222187500005,"end":2097.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2097.7284687500005,"end":2120.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2120.96534375,"end":2126.3484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2129.0147187500006,"end":2134.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2137.1990937500004,"end":2148.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2149.33221875,"end":2235.8672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2236.54221875,"end":2278.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2279.1178437500002,"end":2297.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2297.6465937500006,"end":2305.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2306.9615937500002,"end":2321.4909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2321.89596875,"end":2325.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2325.38909375,"end":2328.6797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2329.0340937500005,"end":2340.0534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2340.3065937500005,"end":2343.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2350.98846875,"end":2537.6765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2543.7684687500005,"end":2544.8990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2544.9665937500004,"end":2545.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2545.72596875,"end":2547.9365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2550.8222187500005,"end":2558.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2559.3778437500005,"end":2565.2165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2570.36346875,"end":2573.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2573.63721875,"end":2582.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2582.56409375,"end":2589.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2589.2803437500006,"end":2592.5709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2593.3809687500006,"end":2594.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2594.73096875,"end":2598.0215937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2598.3759687500005,"end":2602.4765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2602.86471875,"end":2607.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2607.7078437500004,"end":2609.0409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2609.24346875,"end":2615.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2615.7909687500005,"end":2640.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2641.7109687500006,"end":2685.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2685.92346875,"end":2694.0909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2694.64784375,"end":2698.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2698.7653437500003,"end":2699.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2699.89596875,"end":2701.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2702.05596875,"end":2706.4940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2707.2872187500006,"end":2714.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2715.01596875,"end":2729.2584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2729.4440937500003,"end":2737.4597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2737.6622187500006,"end":2759.8359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2760.5447187500004,"end":2774.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2775.1247187500003,"end":2778.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2778.6853437500004,"end":2781.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2781.9928437500002,"end":2794.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2794.86846875,"end":2819.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2819.77596875,"end":2826.5597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2827.0997187500006,"end":2831.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2831.58846875,"end":2842.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2844.0253437500005,"end":2845.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2845.79721875,"end":2850.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2850.43784375,"end":2860.7147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2861.23784375,"end":2865.7940937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2866.53659375,"end":2867.1609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2867.5153437500003,"end":2878.3828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2878.93971875,"end":2894.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2895.40971875,"end":2901.8728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2901.95721875,"end":2905.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2905.95659375,"end":2906.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2906.68221875,"end":2911.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2912.0653437500005,"end":2914.4784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2914.8834687500002,"end":2919.7772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2920.0303437500006,"end":2923.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2923.37159375,"end":2945.4440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2946.62534375,"end":2964.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2964.6647187500002,"end":2965.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2965.96409375,"end":2966.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2967.24659375,"end":2970.5878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2970.79034375,"end":2974.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2974.3340937500006,"end":2978.1309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2978.3503437500003,"end":2985.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2985.85971875,"end":2991.8672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2992.79534375,"end":2993.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2993.9765937500006,"end":3002.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3003.34221875,"end":3006.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3007.00409375,"end":3008.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3008.65784375,"end":3011.0878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3011.61096875,"end":3012.5222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3012.8934687500005,"end":3017.2303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3017.73659375,"end":3019.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3019.55909375,"end":3027.1190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3027.92909375,"end":3028.3678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3029.43096875,"end":3034.1222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3035.7253437500003,"end":3037.4128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3038.3747187500003,"end":3041.6484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3042.52596875,"end":3043.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3046.7615937500004,"end":3053.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3053.42721875,"end":3059.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3059.75534375,"end":3068.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3068.6990937500004,"end":3071.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3071.80409375,"end":3106.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3107.41034375,"end":3111.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3111.9665937500004,"end":3112.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3112.05096875,"end":3112.1015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3112.1015937500006,"end":3116.5565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3116.6240937500006,"end":3122.8340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3122.9522187500006,"end":3177.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3177.9647187500004,"end":3179.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3179.61846875,"end":3182.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3182.3015937500004,"end":3190.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3190.72221875,"end":3191.3634687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3191.68409375,"end":3203.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3202.8722187500007,"end":3203.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3203.9353437500004,"end":3213.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3213.9422187500004,"end":3217.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3217.1990937500004,"end":3234.8503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3234.9684687500003,"end":3235.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3235.8965937500006,"end":3255.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3254.9315937500005,"end":3255.7247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3255.80909375,"end":3255.8428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3256.21409375,"end":3258.7959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3259.3190937500003,"end":3267.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3267.8240937500004,"end":3271.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3272.00909375,"end":3297.9122187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3298.82346875,"end":3308.7628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3309.01596875,"end":3316.5253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3316.7784687500007,"end":3320.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3320.4909687500003,"end":3324.1022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3324.50721875,"end":3339.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3339.22221875,"end":3348.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3348.4528437500003,"end":3361.4297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3361.4297187500006,"end":3361.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3361.51409375,"end":3361.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3361.5478437500005,"end":3366.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3366.76221875,"end":3373.2253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3373.51221875,"end":3374.4909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3374.96346875,"end":3404.0897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3404.4609687500006,"end":3405.5915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3405.87846875,"end":3413.3878437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3413.40471875,"end":3418.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3418.2647187500006,"end":3424.4747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3424.55909375,"end":3425.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3425.45346875,"end":3430.9040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3431.1403437500003,"end":3434.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3435.27471875,"end":3436.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3436.8947187500007,"end":3437.9578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3438.24471875,"end":3439.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3439.8309687500005,"end":3442.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3443.00346875,"end":3454.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3454.15784375,"end":3454.4278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3454.4278437500006,"end":3458.2753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3458.3428437500006,"end":3501.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3495.78846875,"end":3496.2440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3501.82971875,"end":3507.2803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3507.2803437500006,"end":3509.3897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3509.64284375,"end":3514.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3514.84034375,"end":3522.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3522.73784375,"end":3529.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3529.23471875,"end":3549.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3548.7253437500003,"end":3549.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3549.6872187500003,"end":3552.4884687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3552.62346875,"end":3553.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3554.4122187500006,"end":3559.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3559.96409375,"end":3571.8272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3571.8272187500006,"end":3572.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3572.9747187500006,"end":3574.4765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3573.8690937500005,"end":3574.2234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3575.03346875,"end":3575.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3576.13034375,"end":3577.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3577.26096875,"end":3577.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3577.9697187500005,"end":3583.2178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3578.0203437500004,"end":3578.2565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3583.53846875,"end":3619.6003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3611.26409375,"end":3611.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3619.70159375,"end":3627.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3627.2615937500004,"end":3633.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3633.8428437500006,"end":3636.7790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3637.1334687500002,"end":3637.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3638.1122187500005,"end":3652.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3644.5584687500004,"end":3645.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3653.38409375,"end":3653.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3655.1222187500007,"end":3699.7228437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3700.0772187500006,"end":3705.3253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3705.4772187500002,"end":3723.4997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3723.01034375,"end":3728.4440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3726.31784375,"end":3726.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3728.78159375,"end":3730.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3731.38034375,"end":3737.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3737.2022187500006,"end":3738.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3738.78846875,"end":3740.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3740.5772187500006,"end":3741.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3741.0665937500007,"end":3744.8634687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3749.89221875,"end":3750.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3760.97909375,"end":3763.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3763.1222187500007,"end":3764.1178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3767.71221875,"end":3768.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3768.67409375,"end":3771.4415937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3772.23471875,"end":3777.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3778.1240937500006,"end":3779.6090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3780.38534375,"end":3780.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3781.95471875,"end":3783.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3783.92909375,"end":3785.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3785.97096875,"end":3790.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3790.8984687500006,"end":3792.5690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3792.90659375,"end":3795.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3796.3153437500005,"end":3801.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3801.17534375,"end":3808.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3808.9884687500007,"end":3810.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3810.5578437500008,"end":3819.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3819.78846875,"end":3822.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3822.80909375,"end":3826.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3827.21346875,"end":3845.6915937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3846.31596875,"end":3858.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3858.7697187500007,"end":3875.8640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3873.6872187500003,"end":3874.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3875.8640937500004,"end":3876.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3876.2353437500005,"end":3878.0915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3876.26909375,"end":3876.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3878.2772187500004,"end":3883.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3883.4747187500006,"end":3884.3522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3884.7403437500006,"end":3887.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3887.1534687500007,"end":3893.1778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3893.86971875,"end":3895.2703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3895.7765937500008,"end":3896.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3897.1603437500007,"end":3897.8015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3898.62846875,"end":3901.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3902.89784375,"end":3911.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3906.4415937500007,"end":3906.6609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3906.6609687500004,"end":3906.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3906.8465937500005,"end":3906.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3911.21721875,"end":3917.1403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3917.1403437500003,"end":3928.6153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3928.86846875,"end":3937.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3937.9640937500008,"end":3947.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3947.14409375,"end":3957.5222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3957.5222187500003,"end":3957.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3957.7584687500002,"end":3958.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3959.68221875,"end":3964.7615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3964.7615937500004,"end":3964.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3964.84596875,"end":3986.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3967.74846875,"end":3968.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3968.11971875,"end":3968.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3986.7159687500007,"end":3987.7959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3988.0997187500006,"end":3990.9178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3990.95159375,"end":3990.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3990.9853437500005,"end":3991.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3991.3397187500004,"end":4008.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4008.73784375,"end":4010.2565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4010.3409687500007,"end":4013.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4013.56409375,"end":4018.9978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4018.98096875,"end":4019.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4019.3184687500006,"end":4026.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4027.41846875,"end":4041.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4042.11659375,"end":4043.8547187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4044.47909375,"end":4045.5928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4045.9472187500005,"end":4055.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4056.15659375,"end":4058.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4058.6034687500005,"end":4074.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4074.06096875,"end":4076.0690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4075.7147187500004,"end":4079.2584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4078.8365937500002,"end":4083.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4083.39284375,"end":4094.8340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4094.2772187500004,"end":4101.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4102.107218749999,"end":4103.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4103.87909375,"end":4104.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4104.19971875,"end":4111.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4109.97096875,"end":4110.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4110.966593749999,"end":4115.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4115.77596875,"end":4124.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4124.247218750001,"end":4160.376593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4159.3134687500005,"end":4165.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4163.380343750001,"end":4164.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4165.590968750001,"end":4165.675343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4165.675343749999,"end":4165.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4165.70909375,"end":4173.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4173.1678437499995,"end":4182.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4183.27596875,"end":4190.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4190.26221875,"end":4190.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4190.279093749999,"end":4193.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4193.35034375,"end":4193.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4193.97471875,"end":4198.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4198.37909375,"end":4198.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4198.395968750001,"end":4199.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4199.948468750001,"end":4201.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4201.88909375,"end":4206.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4204.55534375,"end":4204.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4205.36534375,"end":4208.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4207.7615937499995,"end":4207.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4209.11159375,"end":4211.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4212.0478437500005,"end":4214.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4214.9334687499995,"end":4214.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4214.96721875,"end":4215.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4215.3553437499995,"end":4217.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4217.92034375,"end":4224.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4223.894093749999,"end":4237.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4237.022843750001,"end":4246.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4247.16471875,"end":4249.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4249.98284375,"end":4250.235968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4250.235968749999,"end":4252.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4253.12159375,"end":4262.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4258.99409375,"end":4259.095343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4263.14534375,"end":4271.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4271.86971875,"end":4272.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4272.139718750001,"end":4292.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4274.384093750001,"end":4274.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4274.7215937500005,"end":4274.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4292.237843749999,"end":4301.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4301.16471875,"end":4339.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4339.589093750001,"end":4339.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4339.65659375,"end":4342.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4342.79534375,"end":4348.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4348.70159375,"end":4349.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4349.562218749999,"end":4355.890343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4354.776593750001,"end":4366.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4366.97721875,"end":4377.405968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4377.20346875,"end":4379.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4379.17784375,"end":4384.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4384.9490937499995,"end":4397.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4392.15471875,"end":4392.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4392.9647187499995,"end":4393.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4393.08284375,"end":4393.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4393.09971875,"end":4393.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4393.18409375,"end":4393.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4393.217843750001,"end":4393.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4393.65659375,"end":4393.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4393.774718750001,"end":4398.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4398.53346875,"end":4401.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4416.420968750001,"end":4419.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4419.15471875,"end":4419.222218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4419.222218749999,"end":4419.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4419.49221875,"end":4420.673468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4423.45784375,"end":4423.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4423.47471875,"end":4423.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4424.82471875,"end":4424.841593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4424.841593749999,"end":4425.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4426.66409375,"end":4430.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4430.140343749999,"end":4432.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4433.17784375,"end":4436.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4436.45159375,"end":4438.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4439.573468750001,"end":4442.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4443.2353437500005,"end":4444.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4446.0028437500005,"end":4450.440968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4450.440968749999,"end":4450.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4450.8290937500005,"end":4458.642218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4458.979718750001,"end":4461.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4461.747218750001,"end":4468.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4468.32846875,"end":4472.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4473.57659375,"end":4479.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4473.745343750001,"end":4474.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4480.022843750001,"end":4485.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4483.60034375,"end":4485.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4485.96284375,"end":4499.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4499.513468749999,"end":4501.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4501.31909375,"end":4501.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4502.12909375,"end":4504.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4504.27221875,"end":4519.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4509.14909375,"end":4509.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4518.362843749999,"end":4522.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4522.5478437500005,"end":4524.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4524.15096875,"end":4524.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4524.96096875,"end":4529.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4529.97284375,"end":4541.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4539.692843750001,"end":4554.644093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4544.78909375,"end":4544.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4544.87346875,"end":4544.940968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4554.779093749999,"end":4554.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4554.795968750001,"end":4569.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4554.89721875,"end":4555.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4567.874093750001,"end":4573.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4574.21909375,"end":4574.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4574.87721875,"end":4576.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4576.530968749999,"end":4578.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4578.6572187500005,"end":4582.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4582.97721875,"end":4589.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4590.38534375,"end":4594.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4594.9247187500005,"end":4594.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4594.94159375,"end":4594.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4594.97534375,"end":4595.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4595.73471875,"end":4597.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4597.50659375,"end":4600.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4600.42596875,"end":4603.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4604.12159375,"end":4612.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4613.45346875,"end":4614.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4614.7528437500005,"end":4616.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4616.2040937500005,"end":4616.609093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4616.77784375,"end":4621.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4622.17784375,"end":4622.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4622.194718750001,"end":4622.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4622.7684687500005,"end":4625.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4625.2997187500005,"end":4631.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4631.45909375,"end":4638.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4639.170968750001,"end":4647.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4647.608468750001,"end":4649.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4649.5322187500005,"end":4653.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4653.497843749999,"end":4653.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4653.95346875,"end":4654.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4654.965968750001,"end":4693.440968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4693.778468750001,"end":4694.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4694.74034375,"end":4695.415343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4695.972218749999,"end":4702.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4702.030343750001,"end":4708.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4708.965968750001,"end":4717.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4717.50471875,"end":4718.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4718.02784375,"end":4721.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4722.465968750001,"end":4725.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4726.41471875,"end":4731.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4731.20721875,"end":4731.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4731.24096875,"end":4734.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4734.90284375,"end":4740.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4735.13909375,"end":4735.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4740.91034375,"end":4742.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4742.02409375,"end":4742.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4742.04096875,"end":4742.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4742.41221875,"end":4742.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4742.952218750001,"end":4743.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4743.137843750001,"end":4755.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4747.87971875,"end":4748.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4752.30096875,"end":4753.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4755.034718750001,"end":4757.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4757.63346875,"end":4758.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4758.224093750001,"end":4759.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4758.66284375,"end":4758.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4759.0340937500005,"end":4759.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4759.37159375,"end":4760.046593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4759.97909375,"end":4767.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4763.91096875,"end":4765.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4765.952843749999,"end":4772.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4771.217843750001,"end":4772.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4772.888468749999,"end":4772.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4772.905343750001,"end":4772.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4772.97284375,"end":4774.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4774.08659375,"end":4774.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4774.120343750001,"end":4784.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4774.50846875,"end":4778.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4784.97096875,"end":4792.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4786.27034375,"end":4786.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4786.962218750001,"end":4787.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4787.670968750001,"end":4787.704718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4788.2615937499995,"end":4788.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4788.53159375,"end":4788.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4788.599093750001,"end":4788.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4788.835343750001,"end":4789.577843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4790.894093750001,"end":4792.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4792.446593750001,"end":4792.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4792.919093750001,"end":4793.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4794.35346875,"end":4795.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4795.19721875,"end":4795.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4795.23096875,"end":4795.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4795.484093749999,"end":4796.749718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4797.39096875,"end":4798.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4798.23471875,"end":4799.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4799.567843750001,"end":4804.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4801.08659375,"end":4802.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4802.55471875,"end":4804.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4804.69784375,"end":4804.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4805.0184687500005,"end":4815.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4816.071593750001,"end":4823.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4824.4247187500005,"end":4825.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4826.483468750001,"end":4828.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4829.26784375,"end":4830.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4830.76971875,"end":4833.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4834.22909375,"end":4837.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4837.772843750001,"end":4840.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4841.097218750001,"end":4842.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4842.970343749999,"end":4844.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4845.417218750001,"end":4846.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4846.497218750001,"end":4847.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4847.8134687500005,"end":4849.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4849.905968749999,"end":4863.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4862.64659375,"end":4867.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4868.02971875,"end":4870.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4871.657843749999,"end":4873.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4874.27346875,"end":4883.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4883.892218749999,"end":4886.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4886.64284375,"end":4900.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4890.20346875,"end":4890.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4901.475968750001,"end":4904.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4905.6103437500005,"end":4908.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4908.462218750001,"end":4921.439093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4922.13096875,"end":4922.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4923.312218749999,"end":4923.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4924.22346875,"end":4929.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4929.555968750001,"end":4929.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4930.04534375,"end":4935.462218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4936.69409375,"end":4937.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4938.48284375,"end":4940.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4941.0478437500005,"end":4943.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4944.20346875,"end":4947.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4947.274718750001,"end":4948.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4949.012843750001,"end":4950.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4950.95346875,"end":4953.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4954.32846875,"end":4958.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4958.564093749999,"end":4959.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4959.779093749999,"end":4961.702843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4962.782843749999,"end":4962.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4962.85034375,"end":4963.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4963.98096875,"end":4969.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4969.6678437499995,"end":4991.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4973.07659375,"end":4973.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4976.856593750001,"end":4977.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4977.48096875,"end":4977.548468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4977.548468749999,"end":4977.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4991.942843750001,"end":4992.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4992.4490937499995,"end":4992.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4992.98909375,"end":4993.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4993.27596875,"end":4993.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4993.69784375,"end":4993.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4993.731593750001,"end":4993.765343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4994.288468750001,"end":5000.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5000.667218750001,"end":5002.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5002.675343750001,"end":5009.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5009.712218750001,"end":5014.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5015.567843750001,"end":5016.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5017.154093749999,"end":5019.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5018.892218749999,"end":5025.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5023.634093750001,"end":5042.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5042.483468750001,"end":5043.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5043.884093750001,"end":5044.626593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5044.8290937500005,"end":5045.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5045.30159375,"end":5045.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5046.29721875,"end":5046.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5046.95534375,"end":5048.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5048.845343749999,"end":5049.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5050.262843750001,"end":5051.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5051.106593750001,"end":5051.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5051.3934687500005,"end":5081.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5075.001593749999,"end":5078.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5079.49034375,"end":5081.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5081.700968749999,"end":5081.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5081.9540937500005,"end":5081.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5081.97096875,"end":5082.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5081.987843750001,"end":5086.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5085.63284375,"end":5089.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5087.809718750001,"end":5088.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5089.56471875,"end":5090.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5091.032843749999,"end":5091.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5091.083468750001,"end":5091.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5091.10034375,"end":5091.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5091.134093750001,"end":5091.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5091.20159375,"end":5093.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5091.2353437500005,"end":5091.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5091.35346875,"end":5091.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5093.985968749999,"end":5097.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5097.58034375,"end":5098.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5098.3397187499995,"end":5103.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5098.60971875,"end":5098.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5099.6053437499995,"end":5101.765343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5105.5790937500005,"end":5106.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5108.21159375,"end":5111.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5111.60346875,"end":5112.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5113.1728437500005,"end":5114.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5114.995343750001,"end":5116.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5116.98659375,"end":5119.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5120.665343750001,"end":5125.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5125.13721875,"end":5125.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5125.491593750001,"end":5125.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5125.964093750001,"end":5127.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5127.82034375,"end":5168.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5168.185343749999,"end":5176.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5168.202218750001,"end":5168.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5169.82221875,"end":5169.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5176.97721875,"end":5177.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5177.55096875,"end":5197.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5197.311593750001,"end":5203.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5203.0322187500005,"end":5203.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5203.065968750001,"end":5203.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5203.33596875,"end":5204.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5204.432843750001,"end":5204.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5204.618468750001,"end":5205.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5205.124718749999,"end":5205.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5205.20909375,"end":5205.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5205.24284375,"end":5205.884093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5205.9853437500005,"end":5206.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5206.27221875,"end":5206.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5206.28909375,"end":5207.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5207.757218750001,"end":5209.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5210.35596875,"end":5223.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5224.09221875,"end":5227.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5237.67659375,"end":5239.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5239.36409375,"end":5240.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5243.97096875,"end":5244.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5245.1522187499995,"end":5265.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5265.604718750001,"end":5272.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5272.439093749999,"end":5279.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5279.7459687499995,"end":5283.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5284.13346875,"end":5285.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5285.41596875,"end":5285.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5285.77034375,"end":5290.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5290.917218750001,"end":5297.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5298.561593750001,"end":5305.767218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5306.003468750001,"end":5306.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5306.02034375,"end":5309.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5310.374093750001,"end":5317.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5317.022843750001,"end":5331.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5331.34971875,"end":5343.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5332.27784375,"end":5335.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5343.0272187499995,"end":5348.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5348.96721875,"end":5349.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5349.034718750001,"end":5363.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5349.28784375,"end":5350.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5351.65034375,"end":5351.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5363.800343750001,"end":5367.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5367.782843749999,"end":5375.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5375.96721875,"end":5397.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5397.0272187499995,"end":5438.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5434.4559687500005,"end":5435.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5435.97471875,"end":5436.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5438.6747187500005,"end":5454.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5454.85784375,"end":5463.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5463.43034375,"end":5466.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5465.050343750001,"end":5465.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5466.01221875,"end":5466.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5466.029093749999,"end":5466.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5466.2147187499995,"end":5466.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5466.231593750001,"end":5466.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5466.24846875,"end":5466.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5466.2822187500005,"end":5466.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5466.33284375,"end":5473.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5474.145968750001,"end":5477.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5478.39846875,"end":5485.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5485.907843749999,"end":5493.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5493.29909375,"end":5493.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5494.19346875,"end":5500.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5495.712218750001,"end":5498.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5500.33596875,"end":5502.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5503.13721875,"end":5512.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5513.093468749999,"end":5515.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5515.9959687499995,"end":5516.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5517.53159375,"end":5520.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5520.450968749999,"end":5522.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5523.67409375,"end":5525.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5526.9647187499995,"end":5547.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5531.11596875,"end":5531.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5531.13284375,"end":5531.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5548.497218750001,"end":5550.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5550.80909375,"end":5561.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5561.997218750001,"end":5562.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5563.110968749999,"end":5563.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5563.14471875,"end":5563.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5564.69721875,"end":5586.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5574.079718749999,"end":5574.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5574.130343750001,"end":5574.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5574.82221875,"end":5574.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5574.872843749999,"end":5575.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5575.19346875,"end":5575.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5575.37909375,"end":5575.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5587.124093750001,"end":5588.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5588.03534375,"end":5632.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5589.030968749999,"end":5590.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5633.192843750001,"end":5640.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5640.61784375,"end":5651.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5646.33846875,"end":5646.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5650.776593750001,"end":5676.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5676.44346875,"end":5676.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5677.354718750001,"end":5692.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5692.23846875,"end":5693.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5693.82471875,"end":5696.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5696.5584687499995,"end":5696.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5696.91284375,"end":5708.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5704.75971875,"end":5705.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5708.8603437500005,"end":5715.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5715.39096875,"end":5715.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5715.8465937500005,"end":5715.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5715.86346875,"end":5716.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5716.0322187500005,"end":5754.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5754.81096875,"end":5756.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5757.84846875,"end":5758.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5759.097218750001,"end":5759.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5760.63284375,"end":5762.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5762.8603437500005,"end":5766.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5766.555968750001,"end":5767.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5768.715968750001,"end":5769.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5769.036593750001,"end":5769.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5769.880343750001,"end":5772.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5772.276593750001,"end":5772.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5772.698468750001,"end":5773.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5774.26784375,"end":5774.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5775.01034375,"end":5775.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5775.702218750001,"end":5779.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5779.819718750001,"end":5782.485968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5785.05096875,"end":5787.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5785.28721875,"end":5785.860968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5787.43034375,"end":5817.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5795.007218750001,"end":5795.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5795.46284375,"end":5795.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5797.8084687499995,"end":5798.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5800.87971875,"end":5800.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5800.94721875,"end":5801.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5801.099093750001,"end":5801.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5817.95721875,"end":5819.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5819.93159375,"end":5823.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5823.036593750001,"end":5829.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5827.592843750001,"end":5827.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5830.09034375,"end":5834.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5832.48659375,"end":5832.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5833.5497187500005,"end":5833.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5833.634093750001,"end":5834.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5835.169718749999,"end":5841.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5837.667218750001,"end":5837.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5837.68409375,"end":5837.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5838.544718749999,"end":5839.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5840.468468749999,"end":5858.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5858.40659375,"end":5858.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5859.182843750001,"end":5859.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5859.739718750001,"end":5865.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5860.026593750001,"end":5861.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5864.58284375,"end":5869.999718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5869.27409375,"end":5869.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5869.999718749999,"end":5870.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5871.029093749999,"end":5874.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5883.16221875,"end":5883.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5883.972218750001,"end":5884.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5884.022843750001,"end":5886.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5886.14909375,"end":5886.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5889.456593750001,"end":5889.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5890.485968750001,"end":6030.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5970.557843750001,"end":5970.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5970.642218750001,"end":5970.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6031.03784375,"end":6031.814093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6032.74221875,"end":6040.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6040.724093750001,"end":6043.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6044.16659375,"end":6054.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6052.70534375,"end":6052.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6053.8865937499995,"end":6055.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6054.71346875,"end":6063.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6063.977843750001,"end":6067.251593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6067.79159375,"end":6111.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6111.734093749999,"end":6148.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6149.07846875,"end":6177.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6177.7997187500005,"end":6177.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6177.81659375,"end":6179.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6178.60971875,"end":6180.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6180.364718750001,"end":6184.718468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6184.954718750001,"end":6188.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6189.00471875,"end":6192.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6192.042218750001,"end":6192.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6192.95346875,"end":6192.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6192.970343750001,"end":6193.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6193.03784375,"end":6193.155968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6193.155968749999,"end":6193.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6193.18971875,"end":6193.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6193.341593749999,"end":6195.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6196.04159375,"end":6207.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6207.82034375,"end":6225.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6225.505343750001,"end":6230.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6225.8934687500005,"end":6228.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6229.79159375,"end":6237.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6235.630343750001,"end":6267.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6267.67596875,"end":6294.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6267.878468750001,"end":6269.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6294.54096875,"end":6312.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6311.280968749999,"end":6317.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6318.419093750001,"end":6320.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6320.27534375,"end":6341.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6341.74034375,"end":6360.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6360.269093750001,"end":6370.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6370.208468750001,"end":6377.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6370.64721875,"end":6370.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6377.717843750001,"end":6379.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6380.0634687500005,"end":6394.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6394.00221875,"end":6396.314093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6395.26784375,"end":6415.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6401.663468750001,"end":6402.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6406.388468749999,"end":6408.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6415.23096875,"end":6415.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6415.36596875,"end":6423.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6419.567843750001,"end":6419.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6419.60159375,"end":6420.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6423.63471875,"end":6423.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6423.7528437500005,"end":6423.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6425.25471875,"end":6435.227843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6435.86909375,"end":6442.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6442.484093749999,"end":6452.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6446.145968750001,"end":6449.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6450.314093750001,"end":6455.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6454.532843750001,"end":6466.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6457.637843750001,"end":6457.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6458.58284375,"end":6459.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6466.09221875,"end":6476.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6476.97659375,"end":6484.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6485.36346875,"end":6487.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6485.41409375,"end":6486.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6486.94971875,"end":6495.876593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6496.0115937499995,"end":6508.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6508.38096875,"end":6541.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6511.75596875,"end":6513.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6517.64534375,"end":6519.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6519.029093749999,"end":6519.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6519.48471875,"end":6519.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6519.53534375,"end":6520.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6521.712218750001,"end":6521.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6521.7459687499995,"end":6522.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6522.370343750001,"end":6522.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6522.38721875,"end":6522.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6522.606593750001,"end":6522.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6536.798468750001,"end":6539.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6541.74284375,"end":6544.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6541.776593750001,"end":6542.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6544.544093750001,"end":6550.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6552.66096875,"end":6553.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6554.31471875,"end":6562.110968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6563.055968750001,"end":6566.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6567.882218750001,"end":6577.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6569.53596875,"end":6570.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6578.1590937500005,"end":6584.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6585.24659375,"end":6588.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6588.30096875,"end":6588.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6589.2459687499995,"end":6591.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6591.52409375,"end":6595.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6595.94534375,"end":6602.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6600.2147187499995,"end":6607.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6608.2978437500005,"end":6608.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6608.83784375,"end":6611.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6609.175343750001,"end":6609.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6611.55471875,"end":6612.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6612.38159375,"end":6614.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6612.921593749999,"end":6613.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6614.35596875,"end":6614.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6614.72721875,"end":6615.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6615.7059687500005,"end":6629.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6630.35346875,"end":6630.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6631.112843750001,"end":6633.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6633.8465937500005,"end":6641.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6642.11534375,"end":6647.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6647.49846875,"end":6651.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6651.39659375,"end":6655.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6655.716593749999,"end":6660.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6659.64846875,"end":6659.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6659.7665937500005,"end":6659.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6661.589093750001,"end":6662.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6662.31471875,"end":6667.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6667.47846875,"end":6667.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6667.51221875,"end":6672.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6672.507218750001,"end":6676.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6676.860968750001,"end":6679.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6680.286593750001,"end":6695.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6683.49284375,"end":6683.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6684.977843750001,"end":6684.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6684.99471875,"end":6685.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6695.32221875,"end":6706.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6703.69221875,"end":6733.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6733.27409375,"end":6735.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6735.029093749999,"end":6737.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6736.159718750001,"end":6737.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6737.290343750001,"end":6737.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6737.77971875,"end":6746.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6743.7197187500005,"end":6743.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6743.73659375,"end":6744.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6746.807843750001,"end":6750.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6750.52034375,"end":6750.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6751.110968750001,"end":6756.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6756.696593750001,"end":6759.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6759.464093750001,"end":6763.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6763.294718749999,"end":6768.1209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6767.749718749999,"end":6769.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6770.39909375,"end":6776.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6770.41596875,"end":6770.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6776.575343750001,"end":6791.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6789.923468750001,"end":6793.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6794.142218750001,"end":6802.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6799.069718750001,"end":6799.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6800.58846875,"end":6808.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6803.11971875,"end":6803.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6804.081593750001,"end":6805.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6807.89534375,"end":6808.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6809.12721875,"end":6812.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6809.26221875,"end":6809.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6812.53596875,"end":6816.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6814.020968750001,"end":6864.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6818.64471875,"end":6818.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6829.88346875,"end":6830.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6850.42034375,"end":6850.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6850.8759687500005,"end":6850.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6859.09409375,"end":6859.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6859.296593749999,"end":6859.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6864.274718750001,"end":6872.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6873.77534375,"end":6900.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6901.33221875,"end":6909.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6910.74846875,"end":6915.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6915.52409375,"end":6918.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6920.519093750001,"end":6937.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6938.77784375,"end":6949.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6949.29096875,"end":6957.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6957.036593750001,"end":6970.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6969.54096875,"end":7002.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7003.47659375,"end":7015.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7014.66471875,"end":7030.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7030.13909375,"end":7035.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7035.06659375,"end":7037.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7038.829718750001,"end":7041.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7040.989718750001,"end":7076.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7051.57034375,"end":7051.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7076.663468750001,"end":7114.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7114.98659375,"end":7125.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7125.314093750001,"end":7149.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7149.20909375,"end":7154.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7154.72721875,"end":7168.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7167.923468750001,"end":7187.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7183.718468750001,"end":7184.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7184.03909375,"end":7184.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7184.30909375,"end":7184.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7184.325968749999,"end":7184.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7188.34221875,"end":7203.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7204.13721875,"end":7206.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7206.06096875,"end":7220.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7215.460343750001,"end":7215.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7215.47721875,"end":7215.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7218.85221875,"end":7219.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7220.08409375,"end":7244.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7244.26596875,"end":7248.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7248.2147187499995,"end":7249.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7250.03721875,"end":7265.376593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7258.154093749999,"end":7258.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7258.42409375,"end":7258.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7258.862843750001,"end":7259.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7259.03159375,"end":7259.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7259.08221875,"end":7259.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7266.05159375,"end":7294.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7294.064093750001,"end":7294.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7294.6209687499995,"end":7303.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7301.3709687499995,"end":7302.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7302.16409375,"end":7302.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7302.72096875,"end":7305.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7304.374718750001,"end":7304.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7305.48846875,"end":7308.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7316.524718750001,"end":7318.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7331.374718750001,"end":7336.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7336.960343750001,"end":7342.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7343.1365937499995,"end":7348.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7350.47721875,"end":7351.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7350.81471875,"end":7351.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7351.962218750001,"end":7354.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7354.5947187500005,"end":7354.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7357.80096875,"end":7358.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7359.134093750001,"end":7360.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7361.20971875,"end":7374.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7375.60409375,"end":7376.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7377.62909375,"end":7380.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7381.122218750001,"end":7382.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7382.87721875,"end":7384.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7384.767218750001,"end":7388.564093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7388.901593750001,"end":7396.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7396.2928437499995,"end":7407.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7408.071593750001,"end":7410.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7410.889718750001,"end":7411.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7411.51409375,"end":7416.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7416.66096875,"end":7425.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7425.85784375,"end":7426.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7426.9715937500005,"end":7428.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7428.38909375,"end":7431.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7431.510968750001,"end":7433.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7433.08034375,"end":7434.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7435.071593750001,"end":7437.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7437.839093750001,"end":7438.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7438.733468750001,"end":7440.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7442.31096875,"end":7442.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7443.694718750001,"end":7444.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7444.673468750001,"end":7444.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7444.6903437500005,"end":7446.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7445.6522187499995,"end":7447.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7447.03596875,"end":7447.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7447.491593750001,"end":7447.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7447.71096875,"end":7447.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7447.87971875,"end":7447.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7449.0272187499995,"end":7449.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7449.63471875,"end":7463.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7449.95534375,"end":7450.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7453.7353437500005,"end":7455.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7463.97846875,"end":7466.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7466.30721875,"end":7467.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7467.876593750001,"end":7469.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7469.985968750001,"end":7471.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7471.28534375,"end":7473.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7474.18784375,"end":7476.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7476.8709687499995,"end":7477.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7477.950968749999,"end":7477.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7477.967843750001,"end":7479.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7478.03534375,"end":7486.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7486.962218750001,"end":7490.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7490.55659375,"end":7494.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7495.0115937499995,"end":7496.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7497.5428437499995,"end":7497.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7498.251593750001,"end":7498.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7498.673468750001,"end":7503.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7503.972218750001,"end":7504.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7504.74846875,"end":7504.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7504.7822187500005,"end":7509.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7509.70971875,"end":7510.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7510.6209687499995,"end":7514.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7515.16034375,"end":7529.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7529.55471875,"end":7539.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7539.89909375,"end":7542.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7543.42596875,"end":7570.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7570.03784375,"end":7571.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7571.8603437500005,"end":7571.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7572.180968750001,"end":7574.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7573.4803437499995,"end":7575.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7574.847218750001,"end":7574.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7574.982218749999,"end":7583.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7583.03159375,"end":7591.907843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7583.68971875,"end":7584.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7590.456593750001,"end":7591.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7592.144093750001,"end":7594.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7595.249093750001,"end":7600.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7600.581593750001,"end":7605.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7605.694718750001,"end":7617.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7618.2665937500005,"end":7619.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7619.144093750001,"end":7622.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7622.569718750001,"end":7624.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7625.100968750001,"end":7627.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7628.138468749999,"end":7636.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7636.120343750001,"end":7639.157843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7639.394093750001,"end":7642.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7642.41471875,"end":7643.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7644.0009687500005,"end":7646.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7648.2197187500005,"end":7648.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7648.89471875,"end":7649.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7649.63721875,"end":7651.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7651.37534375,"end":7655.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7653.90659375,"end":7654.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7654.88534375,"end":7655.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7656.2353437500005,"end":7658.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7658.7665937500005,"end":7662.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7662.47909375,"end":7671.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7672.350968750001,"end":7673.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7673.97096875,"end":7675.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7676.21534375,"end":7698.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7699.536593750001,"end":7704.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7704.24471875,"end":7709.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7709.982218749999,"end":7712.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7713.39096875,"end":7714.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7715.07846875,"end":7719.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7719.415343750001,"end":7721.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7721.524718750001,"end":7722.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7723.46534375,"end":7724.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7724.427218750001,"end":7728.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7729.067843750001,"end":7732.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7729.65846875,"end":7729.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7733.2528437500005,"end":7733.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7733.32034375,"end":7733.657843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7733.657843750001,"end":7733.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7733.97846875,"end":7736.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7736.17221875,"end":7738.770968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7738.78784375,"end":7741.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7741.31909375,"end":7741.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7741.33596875,"end":7741.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7741.79159375,"end":7743.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7743.52971875,"end":7744.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7745.149718750001,"end":7745.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7745.6728437500005,"end":7760.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7759.307843750001,"end":7761.923468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7761.923468750001,"end":7761.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7761.99096875,"end":7762.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7762.14284375,"end":7765.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7766.3447187500005,"end":7774.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7774.680968750001,"end":7776.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7776.09846875,"end":7782.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7782.831593750001,"end":7793.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7793.901593750001,"end":7799.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7799.470343750001,"end":7800.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7800.128468750001,"end":7807.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7807.28346875,"end":7807.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7807.99221875,"end":7808.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7808.295968750001,"end":7808.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7809.29159375,"end":7813.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7813.965968750001,"end":7814.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7814.8603437500005,"end":7821.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7821.036593750001,"end":7823.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7823.78721875,"end":7826.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7826.35221875,"end":7834.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7835.22846875,"end":7836.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7837.253468750001,"end":7837.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7838.282843750001,"end":7843.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7843.952843750001,"end":7847.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7848.137843750001,"end":7851.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7851.76596875,"end":7864.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7864.489718750001,"end":7865.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7866.126593750001,"end":7867.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7868.050343750001,"end":7870.767218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7870.9697187500005,"end":7872.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7872.690968750001,"end":7873.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7873.88909375,"end":7875.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7876.09971875,"end":7877.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7878.327218750001,"end":7879.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7880.335343750001,"end":7880.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7881.01034375,"end":7883.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7884.267218750001,"end":7886.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7886.64659375,"end":7890.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7891.067843750001,"end":7892.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7893.24471875,"end":7896.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7897.075343750001,"end":7902.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7903.302218750001,"end":7903.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7903.74096875,"end":7903.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7904.34846875,"end":7904.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7904.97284375,"end":7909.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7909.444718750001,"end":7915.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7915.38471875,"end":7920.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7921.08846875,"end":7936.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7936.950968749999,"end":7939.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7939.583468750001,"end":7944.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7944.91596875,"end":7947.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7947.7509687500005,"end":7948.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7948.51034375,"end":7950.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7951.9022187499995,"end":7951.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7951.919093750001,"end":7951.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7951.952843750001,"end":7951.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7951.9697187500005,"end":7957.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7958.517218750001,"end":7965.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7964.524718750001,"end":7964.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7965.19971875,"end":7965.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7965.8915937500005,"end":7966.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7966.026593750001,"end":7976.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7970.009093750001,"end":7970.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7970.02596875,"end":7971.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7971.05534375,"end":7971.173468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7976.69159375,"end":7991.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7991.5584687499995,"end":7997.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7997.73471875,"end":7999.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7999.405343750001,"end":8001.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8002.24034375,"end":8004.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8004.95721875,"end":8013.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8008.905968750001,"end":8008.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8008.93971875,"end":8009.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8010.57659375,"end":8014.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8014.50846875,"end":8014.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8014.52534375,"end":8014.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8014.727843750001,"end":8014.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8014.89659375,"end":8018.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8014.913468750001,"end":8015.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8018.5584687499995,"end":8024.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8024.73471875,"end":8026.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8027.282843750001,"end":8029.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8030.40471875,"end":8033.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8033.560343750001,"end":8034.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8034.5897187499995,"end":8037.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8036.850968750001,"end":8036.985968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8037.171593750001,"end":8037.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8037.47534375,"end":8041.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8042.014718750001,"end":8046.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8046.90846875,"end":8049.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8049.557843750001,"end":8053.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8052.15659375,"end":8053.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8054.670968750001,"end":8055.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8055.042218750001,"end":8056.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8056.42596875,"end":8058.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8058.29909375,"end":8059.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8058.366593750001,"end":8066.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8061.33659375,"end":8061.876593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8061.876593750001,"end":8061.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8066.21346875,"end":8066.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8066.77034375,"end":8067.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8067.29346875,"end":8067.310343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8067.310343750001,"end":8075.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8075.106593750001,"end":8087.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8087.03721875,"end":8096.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8095.575968750001,"end":8097.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8097.600968750001,"end":8107.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8107.1522187499995,"end":8107.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8107.42221875,"end":8107.439093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8107.4559687500005,"end":8117.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8117.83409375,"end":8129.376593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8129.54534375,"end":8142.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8142.032843750001,"end":8142.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8142.06659375,"end":8142.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8142.2353437500005,"end":8142.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8142.33659375,"end":8142.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8142.94409375,"end":8142.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8143.298468750001,"end":8143.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8143.3153437500005,"end":8147.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8147.39909375,"end":8153.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8152.74846875,"end":8152.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8152.967843750001,"end":8153.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8153.001593750001,"end":8153.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8153.153468750001,"end":8153.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8153.845343750001,"end":8156.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8156.20784375,"end":8158.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8158.6209687499995,"end":8161.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8161.4559687500005,"end":8167.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8167.56471875,"end":8167.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8168.08784375,"end":8182.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8182.634093750001,"end":8188.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8188.10159375,"end":8188.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8188.55721875,"end":8188.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8188.675343750001,"end":8189.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8188.860968750001,"end":8192.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8196.117218750001,"end":8199.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8201.669093750003,"end":8202.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8203.390343750001,"end":8206.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8207.035343750002,"end":8208.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8208.790343749999,"end":8209.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8209.515968750002,"end":8209.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8209.785968750002,"end":8209.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8213.211593750002,"end":8215.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8215.75971875,"end":8216.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8216.87346875,"end":8218.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8219.269718750002,"end":8225.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8226.171593750001,"end":8226.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8226.981593750003,"end":8231.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8231.36909375,"end":8233.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8233.292843750001,"end":8235.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8235.16596875,"end":8244.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8244.362843750001,"end":8247.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8248.480343750001,"end":8252.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8252.715968750003,"end":8253.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8253.35721875,"end":8259.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8259.60096875,"end":8263.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8264.528468750003,"end":8269.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8269.472843750002,"end":8269.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8270.114093750002,"end":8273.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8273.894093750001,"end":8280.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8281.065968750001,"end":8282.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8283.512843750003,"end":8289.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8289.824093750001,"end":8293.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8293.18221875,"end":8294.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8295.13971875,"end":8298.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8299.03784375,"end":8300.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8300.742218750001,"end":8304.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8304.960968750001,"end":8313.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8313.719093750002,"end":8315.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8315.254718750002,"end":8317.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8317.937843750002,"end":8323.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8323.371593750002,"end":8335.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8336.179718750001,"end":8338.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8339.149718750003,"end":8344.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8344.80284375,"end":8347.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8347.890968750002,"end":8351.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8351.40096875,"end":8365.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8358.15096875,"end":8358.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8359.281593750002,"end":8360.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8360.175968750002,"end":8361.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8365.289093750001,"end":8365.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8365.89659375,"end":8373.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8373.152843750002,"end":8377.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8377.82721875,"end":8379.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8379.71721875,"end":8385.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8385.35346875,"end":8391.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8391.563468750002,"end":8395.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8396.27159375,"end":8412.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8412.84284375,"end":8419.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8419.727843750003,"end":8420.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8420.655968750001,"end":8423.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8423.625968750002,"end":8432.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8432.367218750001,"end":8439.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8439.92721875,"end":8444.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8444.63534375,"end":8447.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8444.871593750002,"end":8444.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8444.90534375,"end":8445.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8447.723468750002,"end":8454.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8454.675968750002,"end":8460.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8461.071593750003,"end":8463.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8463.88971875,"end":8464.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8464.61534375,"end":8467.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8467.72034375,"end":8471.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8472.023468750001,"end":8473.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8473.42409375,"end":8476.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8477.17034375,"end":8490.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8490.07971875,"end":8490.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8490.282218750002,"end":8497.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8497.808468750001,"end":8507.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8507.579093750002,"end":8509.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8510.49846875,"end":8517.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8517.46784375,"end":8519.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8519.47596875,"end":8520.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8521.062218750001,"end":8521.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8521.956593750001,"end":8525.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8526.546593750001,"end":8536.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8536.519718750002,"end":8549.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8549.800343750001,"end":8551.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8551.67346875,"end":8553.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8554.20471875,"end":8557.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8557.242218750001,"end":8558.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8558.305343750002,"end":8558.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8558.946593750003,"end":8565.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8565.22409375,"end":8568.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8568.98721875,"end":8573.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8573.94846875,"end":8574.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8574.184718750003,"end":8579.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8580.58034375,"end":8584.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8585.035343750002,"end":8587.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8587.667843750001,"end":8589.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8589.321593750003,"end":8590.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8590.60409375,"end":8599.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8599.497218750003,"end":8600.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8600.222843750002,"end":8600.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8600.914718750002,"end":8606.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8606.43284375,"end":8618.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8619.359093750001,"end":8619.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8620.152218750001,"end":8627.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8627.93159375,"end":8632.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8632.26846875,"end":8637.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8637.415343750003,"end":8644.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8645.042843750001,"end":8647.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8647.422218750002,"end":8669.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8669.29221875,"end":8673.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8673.17346875,"end":8675.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8673.629093750002,"end":8674.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8675.08034375,"end":8681.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8682.117218750001,"end":8712.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8712.42471875,"end":8715.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8715.934718750003,"end":8718.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8718.63471875,"end":8721.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8721.65534375,"end":8726.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8726.71784375,"end":8735.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8732.742218750001,"end":8734.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8736.488468750002,"end":8739.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8795.702843750001,"end":8802.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8797.96409375,"end":8798.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8799.145343750002,"end":8799.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8799.297218750002,"end":8800.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8803.313468750002,"end":8803.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8803.95471875,"end":8804.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8804.140343750001,"end":8805.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8805.92909375,"end":8805.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8947.02096875,"end":8947.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":8950.24409375,"end":8951.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9168.859718750002,"end":9169.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9169.99034375,"end":9170.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9923.020343750002,"end":9923.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9924.62346875,"end":9925.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9925.382843750001,"end":9928.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9936.21659375,"end":9938.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9938.832218750002,"end":9940.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9940.519718750002,"end":9941.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9941.582843750002,"end":9942.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9945.61596875,"end":9946.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9946.577843750001,"end":9953.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9954.00284375,"end":9955.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9955.487843750001,"end":9956.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9956.78721875,"end":9957.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9957.79971875,"end":9963.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9964.11096875,"end":9968.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9968.633468750002,"end":9983.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9984.22596875,"end":9984.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9984.95159375,"end":9988.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9989.136593750001,"end":9990.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9991.769093750001,"end":9992.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9992.460968750001,"end":9993.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9993.304718750001,"end":9995.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9995.852843750003,"end":9997.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9998.45159375,"end":9999.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10000.29096875,"end":10000.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10001.489093750002,"end":10002.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10003.04159375,"end":10004.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10004.594093750002,"end":10008.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10008.37409375,"end":10010.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10010.31471875,"end":10010.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10010.820968750002,"end":10010.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10010.972843750002,"end":10012.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10012.457843750002,"end":10032.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10032.285968750002,"end":10043.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10043.81159375,"end":10049.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10050.49409375,"end":10060.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10060.450343750003,"end":10061.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10061.41221875,"end":10068.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10068.347843750002,"end":10083.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10084.969718750002,"end":10084.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10084.98659375,"end":10086.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10086.67409375,"end":10089.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10089.99846875,"end":10091.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10091.601593750001,"end":10094.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10095.60096875,"end":10108.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10109.10096875,"end":10113.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10113.67409375,"end":10115.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10115.93534375,"end":10136.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10136.03346875,"end":10154.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10155.203468750002,"end":10158.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10159.28721875,"end":10168.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10168.29846875,"end":10170.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10171.20096875,"end":10171.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10172.14596875,"end":10173.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10174.06971875,"end":10175.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10175.352218750002,"end":10182.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10182.97971875,"end":10184.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10185.679718750001,"end":10186.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10186.60784375,"end":10187.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10187.637218750002,"end":10188.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10189.13909375,"end":10190.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10190.92784375,"end":10192.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10192.71659375,"end":10196.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10197.42471875,"end":10203.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10204.242218750001,"end":10206.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10207.465343750002,"end":10207.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10208.629718750002,"end":10209.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10210.215968750003,"end":10212.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10212.56159375,"end":10213.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10214.063468750002,"end":10215.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10215.98721875,"end":10217.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10218.113468750002,"end":10218.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10218.754718750002,"end":10219.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10220.56034375,"end":10221.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10221.437843750002,"end":10222.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10223.05784375,"end":10223.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10224.15471875,"end":10224.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10225.69034375,"end":10226.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10226.601593750001,"end":10230.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10231.02284375,"end":10231.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10231.96784375,"end":10245.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10246.09221875,"end":10247.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10247.99909375,"end":10288.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10288.75221875,"end":10295.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10295.82284375,"end":10298.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10298.94471875,"end":10298.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10298.97846875,"end":10303.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10303.399718750003,"end":10305.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10306.25159375,"end":10306.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10307.550968750002,"end":10312.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10312.49534375,"end":10325.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10325.03346875,"end":10332.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10332.610343750002,"end":10336.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10335.816593750002,"end":10337.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10337.04846875,"end":10337.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10337.11596875,"end":10338.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10338.195968750002,"end":10338.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10338.297218750002,"end":10338.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10338.347843750002,"end":10338.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10338.53346875,"end":10349.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10339.47846875,"end":10339.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10348.995968750001,"end":10353.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10354.328468750002,"end":10365.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10365.16221875,"end":10371.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10372.047218750002,"end":10374.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10373.937218750001,"end":10376.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10375.590968750003,"end":10385.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10385.024093750002,"end":10391.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10391.52096875,"end":10402.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10401.07221875,"end":10414.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10405.493468750003,"end":10406.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10414.20096875,"end":10421.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10422.402218750001,"end":10437.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10438.079093750002,"end":10439.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10439.85096875,"end":10444.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10443.58034375,"end":10446.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10446.43221875,"end":10451.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10449.874718750001,"end":10453.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10453.85721875,"end":10456.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10457.434718750003,"end":10459.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10460.15159375,"end":10461.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10461.04596875,"end":10461.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10461.34971875,"end":10467.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10467.964718750001,"end":10469.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10470.05721875,"end":10479.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10479.034718750001,"end":10479.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10479.051593750002,"end":10479.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10479.152843750002,"end":10485.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10486.18971875,"end":10487.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10487.961593750002,"end":10490.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10490.543468750002,"end":10493.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10491.25221875,"end":10491.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10493.024093750002,"end":10493.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10493.78346875,"end":10493.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10493.800343750001,"end":10496.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10496.48346875,"end":10500.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10500.53346875,"end":10501.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10501.512218750002,"end":10512.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10512.329093750002,"end":10512.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10512.34596875,"end":10512.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10512.649718750003,"end":10512.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10512.66659375,"end":10512.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10512.97034375,"end":10517.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10518.269093750001,"end":10526.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10526.993468750003,"end":10533.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10532.629718750002,"end":10538.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10538.637218750002,"end":10540.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10541.15159375,"end":10544.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10545.555968750003,"end":10546.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10546.26471875,"end":10551.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10551.546593750001,"end":10557.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10557.58784375,"end":10562.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10562.734718750002,"end":10568.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10568.82659375,"end":10607.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10596.40034375,"end":10596.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10596.46784375,"end":10598.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10607.79096875,"end":10607.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10607.824718750002,"end":10608.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10608.06096875,"end":10612.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10612.97159375,"end":10613.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10613.22471875,"end":10613.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10613.258468750002,"end":10615.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10615.40159375,"end":10615.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10615.536593750003,"end":10618.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10618.202843750001,"end":10622.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10618.219718750002,"end":10618.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10623.51846875,"end":10625.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10623.585968750001,"end":10623.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10625.56034375,"end":10625.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10626.066593750002,"end":10633.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10634.31846875,"end":10635.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10635.17909375,"end":10635.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10635.195968750002,"end":10635.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10635.31409375,"end":10635.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10635.85409375,"end":10636.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10636.259093750003,"end":10636.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10636.27596875,"end":10636.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10636.309718750003,"end":10637.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10638.351593750001,"end":10642.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10642.90784375,"end":10650.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10650.974093750003,"end":10653.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10653.910343750002,"end":10659.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10659.934718750003,"end":10666.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10666.60034375,"end":10667.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10667.66346875,"end":10675.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10671.96659375,"end":10672.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10675.45971875,"end":10677.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10677.41721875,"end":10678.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10678.598468750002,"end":10678.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10678.63221875,"end":10678.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10678.699718750002,"end":10681.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10680.35346875,"end":10693.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10692.21659375,"end":10692.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10692.26721875,"end":10692.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10693.80284375,"end":10698.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10706.492843750002,"end":10711.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10711.63971875,"end":10712.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10715.925968750002,"end":10716.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10716.63471875,"end":10738.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10739.618468750003,"end":10742.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10742.95971875,"end":10756.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10756.375343750002,"end":10758.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10759.19346875,"end":10766.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10765.555343750002,"end":10765.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10766.247218750003,"end":10776.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10776.43971875,"end":10778.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10778.734718750002,"end":10778.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10778.785343750002,"end":10778.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10778.835968750001,"end":10785.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10782.56534375,"end":10782.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10785.214718750001,"end":10795.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10796.200343750003,"end":10808.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10808.97471875,"end":10830.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10817.47971875,"end":10817.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10825.680968750003,"end":10825.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10825.69784375,"end":10829.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10830.422843750002,"end":10839.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10838.708468750003,"end":10844.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10842.35346875,"end":10850.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10850.031593750002,"end":10857.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10857.726593750001,"end":10873.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10874.027843750002,"end":10911.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10911.59159375,"end":10919.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10919.792843750001,"end":10923.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10923.690968750001,"end":10924.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10924.973468750002,"end":10925.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10925.78346875,"end":10926.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10927.335968750001,"end":10927.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10928.348468750002,"end":10944.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10944.76784375,"end":10952.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10949.93159375,"end":10950.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10950.20159375,"end":10950.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10952.36159375,"end":10952.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10952.766593750002,"end":10955.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10956.090968750003,"end":10960.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10960.96784375,"end":10987.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10965.22034375,"end":10965.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10966.92471875,"end":10967.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10967.49846875,"end":10967.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10969.45596875,"end":10970.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10971.49784375,"end":10972.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10972.274093750002,"end":10972.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10976.03721875,"end":10976.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10981.757843750001,"end":10983.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10983.47909375,"end":10983.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10984.407218750002,"end":10984.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10984.96409375,"end":10985.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10985.301593750002,"end":10985.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10987.02284375,"end":10987.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10987.59659375,"end":10988.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10988.102843750003,"end":10988.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10988.136593750001,"end":10988.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10988.204093750002,"end":10988.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10988.22096875,"end":10988.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10988.59221875,"end":10988.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10988.96346875,"end":10988.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10988.997218750003,"end":10989.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10988.997218750003,"end":10994.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10989.452843750001,"end":10989.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10994.02596875,"end":10997.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10994.565968750001,"end":10994.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10997.97471875,"end":11005.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11005.26471875,"end":11017.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11010.90096875,"end":11011.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11017.684718750003,"end":11025.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11025.852218750002,"end":11031.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11031.35346875,"end":11032.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11032.872218750003,"end":11045.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11037.293468750002,"end":11037.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11037.37784375,"end":11038.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11038.727843750003,"end":11040.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11041.259093750003,"end":11041.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11046.16971875,"end":11053.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11049.359093750001,"end":11049.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11053.476593750001,"end":11058.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11056.497218750003,"end":11056.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11057.813468750002,"end":11059.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11059.602218750002,"end":11064.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11064.715343750002,"end":11075.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11074.789718750002,"end":11076.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11075.61659375,"end":11093.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11093.402843750002,"end":11093.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11093.90909375,"end":11107.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11097.63846875,"end":11098.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11105.384093750003,"end":11106.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11106.582218750002,"end":11106.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11106.86909375,"end":11107.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11107.18971875,"end":11107.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11107.695968750002,"end":11107.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11107.864718750003,"end":11109.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11109.82221875,"end":11110.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11111.070968750002,"end":11111.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11112.30284375,"end":11112.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11115.35721875,"end":11117.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11117.21346875,"end":11124.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11123.01846875,"end":11142.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11130.696593750003,"end":11131.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11136.19784375,"end":11136.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11140.770968750003,"end":11140.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11140.821593750003,"end":11141.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11142.863468750002,"end":11143.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11144.48346875,"end":11145.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11145.985343750002,"end":11146.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11146.54221875,"end":11146.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11146.710968750001,"end":11149.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11146.74471875,"end":11146.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11146.761593750001,"end":11147.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11149.208468750003,"end":11155.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11152.043468750002,"end":11154.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11155.266593750002,"end":11155.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11155.722218750001,"end":11155.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11155.80659375,"end":11155.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11155.85721875,"end":11155.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11155.87409375,"end":11155.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11155.890968750002,"end":11155.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11155.97534375,"end":11156.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11156.093468750001,"end":11160.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11156.71784375,"end":11157.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11158.01721875,"end":11163.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11161.594718750002,"end":11162.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11163.434093750002,"end":11163.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11163.46784375,"end":11172.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11172.968468750001,"end":11178.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11178.402218750001,"end":11178.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11178.95909375,"end":11188.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11188.442843750003,"end":11188.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11188.476593750001,"end":11190.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11190.164093750001,"end":11190.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11190.687218750001,"end":11205.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11205.030968750001,"end":11215.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11208.524093750002,"end":11210.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11213.28284375,"end":11218.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11218.024718750003,"end":11220.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11220.707843750002,"end":11225.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11225.230343750001,"end":11231.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11231.609093750001,"end":11231.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11231.86221875,"end":11233.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11233.53284375,"end":11236.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11236.45221875,"end":11236.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11236.48596875,"end":11238.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11238.308468750001,"end":11239.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11239.03409375,"end":11243.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11241.34596875,"end":11241.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11243.843468750001,"end":11247.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11244.164093750001,"end":11244.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11247.42096875,"end":11259.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11252.41596875,"end":11252.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11259.081593750001,"end":11259.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11259.520343750002,"end":11259.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11259.55409375,"end":11262.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11262.43971875,"end":11262.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11262.743468750003,"end":11265.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11266.067843750003,"end":11266.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11267.333468750003,"end":11271.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11271.315968750001,"end":11273.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11273.965343750002,"end":11278.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11279.04471875,"end":11280.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11280.64784375,"end":11281.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11281.15409375,"end":11281.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11281.255343750003,"end":11281.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11282.976593750001,"end":11294.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11294.60346875,"end":11296.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11296.054718750001,"end":11296.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11296.746593750002,"end":11296.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11296.864718750003,"end":11296.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11296.898468750001,"end":11296.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11296.999718750001,"end":11297.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11297.03346875,"end":11297.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11297.050343750001,"end":11297.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11297.067218750002,"end":11297.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11297.99534375,"end":11298.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11298.41721875,"end":11301.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11302.011593750001,"end":11305.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11305.67346875,"end":11306.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11306.145968750003,"end":11306.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11306.16284375,"end":11318.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11317.215968750003,"end":11320.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11319.949718750002,"end":11324.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11324.489093750002,"end":11328.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11328.977843750003,"end":11335.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11333.027843750002,"end":11333.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11334.512843750003,"end":11337.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11337.449093750001,"end":11337.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11337.73596875,"end":11348.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11348.35034375,"end":11348.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11348.417843750001,"end":11348.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11348.45159375,"end":11356.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11355.03284375,"end":11356.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11356.770968750003,"end":11360.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11356.821593750003,"end":11357.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11361.344093750002,"end":11364.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11365.15784375,"end":11368.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11369.07284375,"end":11370.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11370.23721875,"end":11370.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11370.64221875,"end":11372.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11372.02596875,"end":11375.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11375.907218750002,"end":11379.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11379.315968750001,"end":11379.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11379.602843750003,"end":11381.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11381.745968750001,"end":11383.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11383.534718750001,"end":11389.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11389.47471875,"end":11389.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11389.829093750002,"end":11410.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11407.227218750002,"end":11407.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11407.24409375,"end":11407.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11410.41659375,"end":11410.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11410.821593750003,"end":11418.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11418.63471875,"end":11419.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11419.02284375,"end":11421.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11421.90846875,"end":11430.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11430.784718750001,"end":11433.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11433.805343750002,"end":11436.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11436.62346875,"end":11447.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11439.711593750002,"end":11440.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11447.32221875,"end":11447.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11447.575343750003,"end":11448.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11448.047843750002,"end":11448.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11448.773468750001,"end":11453.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11454.29159375,"end":11459.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11459.708468750003,"end":11467.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11460.77159375,"end":11461.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11461.075343750003,"end":11461.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11467.31909375,"end":11472.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11468.618468750003,"end":11468.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11468.63534375,"end":11469.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11472.516593750002,"end":11472.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11473.191593750002,"end":11477.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11477.207843750002,"end":11479.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11479.70534375,"end":11483.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11483.384093750003,"end":11483.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11483.434718750003,"end":11483.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11483.468468750001,"end":11484.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11484.109718750002,"end":11484.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11484.76784375,"end":11485.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11484.81846875,"end":11486.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11486.421593750001,"end":11490.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11498.85846875,"end":11500.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11501.052218750003,"end":11501.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11501.06909375,"end":11501.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11501.085968750001,"end":11501.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11505.55784375,"end":11514.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11514.67034375,"end":11515.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11516.13846875,"end":11530.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11530.95471875,"end":11532.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11531.49471875,"end":11533.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11533.35096875,"end":11538.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11538.227843750003,"end":11561.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11561.92034375,"end":11562.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11562.13971875,"end":11564.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11564.65409375,"end":11570.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11571.218468750001,"end":11574.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11574.20534375,"end":11574.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11574.441593750002,"end":11579.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11579.976593750001,"end":11586.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11586.726593750001,"end":11592.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11591.29971875,"end":11603.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11603.88846875,"end":11605.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11605.255343750003,"end":11605.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11606.11596875,"end":11606.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11606.85846875,"end":11608.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11608.410968750002,"end":11625.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11625.31971875,"end":11625.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11625.690968750001,"end":11633.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11633.47034375,"end":11635.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11634.195968750002,"end":11635.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11636.06909375,"end":11636.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11637.06471875,"end":11640.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11640.794093750003,"end":11645.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11646.210968750001,"end":11652.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11650.51409375,"end":11650.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11652.74159375,"end":11654.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11653.19721875,"end":11655.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11655.593468750001,"end":11660.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11660.723468750002,"end":11680.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11660.74034375,"end":11661.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11677.04159375,"end":11677.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11677.058468750001,"end":11678.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11680.905968750001,"end":11684.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11683.47096875,"end":11691.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11691.824093750001,"end":11692.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11692.43159375,"end":11693.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11693.882843750001,"end":11697.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11693.950343750003,"end":11695.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11695.80659375,"end":11695.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11697.13971875,"end":11706.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11701.56096875,"end":11701.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11704.598468750002,"end":11715.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11710.926593750002,"end":11711.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11713.289093750001,"end":11719.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11719.414718750002,"end":11726.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11726.40096875,"end":11734.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11732.864093750002,"end":11735.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11734.703468750002,"end":11735.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11735.395343750002,"end":11754.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11739.833468750003,"end":11740.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11740.035968750002,"end":11740.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11750.34659375,"end":11750.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11755.122218750003,"end":11763.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11759.222843750002,"end":11759.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11763.441593750002,"end":11765.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11763.492218750001,"end":11766.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11766.934718750003,"end":11772.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11772.081593750001,"end":11776.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11776.992218750001,"end":11781.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11781.379718750002,"end":11783.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11783.117843750002,"end":11789.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11786.762843750003,"end":11795.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11789.63159375,"end":11790.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11790.67784375,"end":11790.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11790.69471875,"end":11790.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11792.702843750001,"end":11792.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11792.719718750002,"end":11792.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11792.770343750002,"end":11792.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11795.63909375,"end":11800.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11801.07284375,"end":11812.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11804.81909375,"end":11805.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11810.742218750001,"end":11818.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11814.707843750002,"end":11814.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11814.89346875,"end":11814.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11814.977843750003,"end":11814.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11819.618468750003,"end":11826.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11826.570968750002,"end":11830.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11830.367843750002,"end":11830.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11830.739093750002,"end":11858.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11859.19034375,"end":11867.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11867.25659375,"end":11889.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11871.30659375,"end":11871.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11890.105343750001,"end":11894.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11895.269093750001,"end":11895.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11895.977843750003,"end":11902.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11903.284718750001,"end":11905.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11903.33534375,"end":11904.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11906.474093750003,"end":11910.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11910.456593750001,"end":11910.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11910.794093750003,"end":11910.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11910.878468750001,"end":11910.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11910.895343750002,"end":11911.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11911.300343750001,"end":11911.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11911.40159375,"end":11911.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11911.60409375,"end":11911.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11911.637843750003,"end":11912.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11912.059718750003,"end":11912.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11912.12721875,"end":11912.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11912.22846875,"end":11912.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11912.24534375,"end":11912.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11912.312843750002,"end":11912.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11912.380343750003,"end":11917.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11912.515343750001,"end":11912.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11917.29096875,"end":11927.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11926.065968750001,"end":11936.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11928.512843750003,"end":11929.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11932.32659375,"end":11933.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11936.477843750003,"end":11938.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11938.06409375,"end":11945.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11944.155968750001,"end":11952.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11949.99471875,"end":11950.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11950.804718750001,"end":11967.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11952.711593750002,"end":11952.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11953.57221875,"end":11953.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11967.91596875,"end":11979.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11979.610343750002,"end":11980.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11980.015343750001,"end":11982.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11982.69846875,"end":11983.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11982.934718750003,"end":11982.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11982.985343750002,"end":11983.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11984.031593750002,"end":11990.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11986.832843750002,"end":12002.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11990.96721875,"end":11991.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12003.218468750001,"end":12008.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12009.00659375,"end":12009.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12009.023468750001,"end":12009.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12009.040343750003,"end":12009.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12009.293468750002,"end":12010.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12009.411593750003,"end":12009.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12010.609718750002,"end":12011.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12012.21284375,"end":12019.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12015.992843750002,"end":12050.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12041.625968750002,"end":12041.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12049.65846875,"end":12052.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12051.852218750002,"end":12058.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12058.72034375,"end":12059.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12058.93971875,"end":12066.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12066.26346875,"end":12071.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12072.102218750002,"end":12089.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12072.13596875,"end":12073.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12089.348468750002,"end":12094.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12094.832843750002,"end":12107.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12102.91596875,"end":12103.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12107.94471875,"end":12110.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12109.21034375,"end":12123.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12110.99909375,"end":12111.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12123.70596875,"end":12139.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12139.703468750002,"end":12148.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12144.715343750002,"end":12150.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12150.199718750002,"end":12153.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12152.258468750002,"end":12152.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12152.37659375,"end":12152.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12152.427218750003,"end":12152.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12153.625343750002,"end":12156.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12162.974093750003,"end":12164.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12165.184718750003,"end":12166.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12170.922218750002,"end":12175.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12176.187218750001,"end":12177.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12178.22909375,"end":12180.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12181.688468750002,"end":12182.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12183.831593750001,"end":12184.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12185.40096875,"end":12186.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12187.493468750003,"end":12188.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12189.07971875,"end":12190.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12190.800968750002,"end":12191.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12192.387218750002,"end":12193.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12193.93971875,"end":12196.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12197.331593750001,"end":12198.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12198.816593750002,"end":12200.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12200.85846875,"end":12201.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12202.191593750002,"end":12203.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12203.474093750003,"end":12204.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12204.992843750002,"end":12206.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12207.49034375,"end":12207.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12208.77284375,"end":12209.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12211.45596875,"end":12212.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12214.071593750003,"end":12215.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12216.636593750001,"end":12217.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12218.864093750002,"end":12220.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12221.378468750001,"end":12224.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12225.00659375,"end":12225.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12227.453468750002,"end":12229.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12229.22534375,"end":12230.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12231.469718750002,"end":12233.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12234.59159375,"end":12235.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12235.671593750001,"end":12237.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12238.590968750003,"end":12239.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12240.54846875,"end":12241.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12241.847843750002,"end":12243.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12244.750343750002,"end":12245.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12246.539093750001,"end":12248.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12248.58096875,"end":12252.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12252.968468750001,"end":12254.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12255.33096875,"end":12256.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12257.254718750002,"end":12260.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12261.91221875,"end":12262.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12263.582843750002,"end":12270.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12270.704093750002,"end":12273.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12273.555968750003,"end":12276.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12277.065968750001,"end":12281.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12283.259093750003,"end":12306.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12306.816593750002,"end":12308.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12308.74034375,"end":12308.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12308.774093750002,"end":12309.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12309.094718750002,"end":12310.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12311.659718750001,"end":12316.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12316.85721875,"end":12322.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12322.35846875,"end":12323.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12323.67471875,"end":12323.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12323.708468750003,"end":12323.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12323.87721875,"end":12323.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12323.894093750001,"end":12326.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12327.04971875,"end":12334.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12328.500968750002,"end":12328.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12328.51784375,"end":12328.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12328.78784375,"end":12328.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12334.035968750002,"end":12340.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12341.460968750001,"end":12346.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12347.19846875,"end":12347.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12347.215343750002,"end":12348.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12348.41346875,"end":12348.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12348.46409375,"end":12349.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12350.13471875,"end":12357.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12353.290343750003,"end":12358.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12358.04909375,"end":12358.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12359.51721875,"end":12361.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12362.21721875,"end":12364.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12365.035343750002,"end":12367.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12368.190968750001,"end":12370.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12371.785343750002,"end":12375.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12376.61159375,"end":12390.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12378.113468750002,"end":12378.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12381.04971875,"end":12382.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12388.49159375,"end":12388.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12389.031593750002,"end":12389.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12389.099093750003,"end":12389.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12390.195968750002,"end":12392.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12393.23346875,"end":12394.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12394.39784375,"end":12409.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12409.399718750003,"end":12411.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12411.84659375,"end":12418.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12419.42346875,"end":12422.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12423.321593750003,"end":12424.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12427.118468750003,"end":12427.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12429.66659375,"end":12435.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12435.927218750003,"end":12436.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12436.028468750003,"end":12436.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12439.302218750003,"end":12442.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12442.727843750003,"end":12442.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12442.862843750001,"end":12442.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12442.930343750002,"end":12442.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12442.96409375,"end":12442.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12442.980968750002,"end":12444.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12445.22534375,"end":12448.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12447.85784375,"end":12454.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12448.90409375,"end":12449.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12454.742843750002,"end":12462.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12461.47596875,"end":12464.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12466.133468750002,"end":12467.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12468.884093750003,"end":12477.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12477.96284375,"end":12485.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12483.008468750002,"end":12486.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12485.52284375,"end":12485.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12486.83909375,"end":12486.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12486.88971875,"end":12487.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12487.176593750002,"end":12491.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12491.918468750002,"end":12492.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12493.454093750002,"end":12494.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12493.67346875,"end":12523.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12508.50659375,"end":12508.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12524.200343750003,"end":12524.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12524.21721875,"end":12524.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12524.234093750001,"end":12524.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12524.284718750001,"end":12524.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12524.33534375,"end":12524.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12524.352218750002,"end":12525.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12526.37721875,"end":12529.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12529.887218750002,"end":12531.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12532.165343750003,"end":12538.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12539.40471875,"end":12540.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12540.56909375,"end":12546.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12544.230968750002,"end":12551.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12551.53784375,"end":12552.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12553.309718750003,"end":12556.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12556.245968750001,"end":12556.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12557.055968750003,"end":12558.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12559.38471875,"end":12560.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12561.426593750002,"end":12562.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12563.19846875,"end":12564.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12566.067218750002,"end":12568.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12569.45909375,"end":12571.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12572.074718750002,"end":12573.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12574.015343750001,"end":12582.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12583.195343750001,"end":12583.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12584.629718750002,"end":12585.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12586.77284375,"end":12587.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12589.38846875,"end":12590.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12592.020968750003,"end":12593.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12594.50159375,"end":12595.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12596.712218750003,"end":12598.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12598.872218750003,"end":12604.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12604.238468750002,"end":12604.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12605.605343750001,"end":12609.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12609.773468750001,"end":12612.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12613.18221875,"end":12614.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12614.363468750002,"end":12614.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12615.730343750001,"end":12620.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12620.15159375,"end":12620.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12620.219093750002,"end":12623.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12623.03721875,"end":12624.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12624.31971875,"end":12625.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12626.175968750002,"end":12627.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12628.082843750002,"end":12632.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12633.26346875,"end":12634.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12634.96784375,"end":12640.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12640.637843750003,"end":12642.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12640.97534375,"end":12645.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12653.15909375,"end":12654.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12655.53846875,"end":12656.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12656.43284375,"end":12657.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12658.407218750002,"end":12663.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12664.00971875,"end":12665.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12665.37659375,"end":12672.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12673.172843750002,"end":12680.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12680.53034375,"end":12689.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12689.828468750002,"end":12690.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12690.098468750002,"end":12696.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12697.152218750001,"end":12697.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12698.29971875,"end":12702.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12700.56096875,"end":12702.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12702.602843750003,"end":12705.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12704.10471875,"end":12704.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12704.121593750002,"end":12704.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12704.172218750002,"end":12704.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12706.062218750001,"end":12707.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12707.648468750001,"end":12707.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12707.68221875,"end":12709.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12709.42034375,"end":12710.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12710.669093750003,"end":12713.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12714.01034375,"end":12716.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12716.96346875,"end":12717.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12717.047843750002,"end":12719.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12719.24159375,"end":12726.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12727.493468750003,"end":12729.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12730.429718750001,"end":12733.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12732.94409375,"end":12781.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12734.243468750003,"end":12734.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12737.06159375,"end":12737.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12782.10096875,"end":12804.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12799.836593750002,"end":12800.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12804.34221875,"end":12813.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12813.454718750003,"end":12823.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12818.939093750003,"end":12819.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12823.832843750002,"end":12826.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12824.001593750003,"end":12824.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12826.12784375,"end":12848.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12832.13534375,"end":12832.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12832.219718750002,"end":12832.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12832.97909375,"end":12833.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12839.712218750003,"end":12840.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12842.47971875,"end":12842.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12842.547218750002,"end":12843.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12846.563468750002,"end":12846.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12848.85846875,"end":12849.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12849.195968750002,"end":12855.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12851.625968750002,"end":12854.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12855.743468750003,"end":12867.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12860.333468750003,"end":12862.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12862.08846875,"end":12862.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12865.14284375,"end":12878.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12870.72846875,"end":12871.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12877.242218750001,"end":12883.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12883.38471875,"end":12909.642218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12885.76409375,"end":12886.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12909.777218750001,"end":12911.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12911.22846875,"end":12915.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12915.93659375,"end":12918.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12917.67471875,"end":12922.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12922.332218750002,"end":12926.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12924.84659375,"end":12925.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12926.280968750001,"end":12929.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12929.36909375,"end":12940.439093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12938.852843750003,"end":12945.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12945.88971875,"end":12945.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12945.974093750003,"end":12946.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12946.109093750001,"end":12948.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12950.46284375,"end":12977.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12962.106593750003,"end":12962.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12968.114093750002,"end":12968.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12971.050343750001,"end":12971.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12977.614718750003,"end":12991.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12990.794093750003,"end":12993.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12993.03846875,"end":13006.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12995.24909375,"end":12995.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13003.281593750002,"end":13003.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13005.610343750002,"end":13026.501593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13012.242218750001,"end":13013.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13017.97971875,"end":13017.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13018.620968750001,"end":13018.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13018.688468750002,"end":13019.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13019.02596875,"end":13019.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13019.97096875,"end":13021.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13022.29971875,"end":13022.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13026.501593750003,"end":13026.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13026.56909375,"end":13026.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13026.602843750003,"end":13026.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13026.61971875,"end":13029.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13028.47596875,"end":13029.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13030.14659375,"end":13040.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13031.648468750001,"end":13032.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13040.929718750001,"end":13053.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13044.01784375,"end":13044.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13044.034718750001,"end":13044.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13044.08534375,"end":13044.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13044.96284375,"end":13045.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13052.57346875,"end":13052.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13052.94471875,"end":13052.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13053.02909375,"end":13053.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13053.231593750003,"end":13056.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13053.282218750002,"end":13054.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13056.032843750003,"end":13060.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13060.09971875,"end":13061.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13060.69034375,"end":13067.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13067.96346875,"end":13073.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13072.97534375,"end":13075.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13073.886593750001,"end":13082.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13078.392218750003,"end":13078.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13081.750343750002,"end":13085.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13085.53034375,"end":13087.251593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13086.559718750003,"end":13089.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13088.230343750001,"end":13095.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13095.452843750001,"end":13098.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13097.427218750003,"end":13099.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13100.19471875,"end":13103.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13102.000343750002,"end":13123.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13103.755343750003,"end":13105.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13109.03721875,"end":13109.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13113.880343750003,"end":13117.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13120.039718750002,"end":13120.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13122.85784375,"end":13127.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13126.77284375,"end":13128.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13128.004718750002,"end":13131.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13130.789093750001,"end":13137.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13136.67846875,"end":13139.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13139.00721875,"end":13156.860968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13155.595343750003,"end":13159.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13157.856593750003,"end":13184.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13159.93221875,"end":13160.235968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13162.31159375,"end":13163.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13163.52659375,"end":13164.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13168.808468750001,"end":13168.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13181.44784375,"end":13182.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13183.793468750002,"end":13186.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13185.531593750002,"end":13195.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13195.656593750002,"end":13197.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13196.348468750002,"end":13206.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13197.917843750001,"end":13199.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13201.44471875,"end":13201.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13206.254093750002,"end":13209.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13208.532218750002,"end":13210.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13210.152218750001,"end":13210.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13210.202843750001,"end":13213.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13213.020968750003,"end":13221.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13217.425343750001,"end":13218.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13221.407843750003,"end":13228.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13224.79971875,"end":13225.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13228.782218750002,"end":13234.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13229.001593750003,"end":13229.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13234.739093750002,"end":13245.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13234.80659375,"end":13237.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13240.56096875,"end":13242.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13244.594093750002,"end":13249.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13248.610343750002,"end":13254.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13252.255343750003,"end":13255.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13255.42784375,"end":13256.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13255.44471875,"end":13255.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13256.929718750001,"end":13261.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13257.01409375,"end":13257.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13259.91659375,"end":13260.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13261.33409375,"end":13284.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13282.664093750001,"end":13283.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13284.840968750003,"end":13303.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13290.105968750002,"end":13292.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13294.18971875,"end":13295.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13300.956593750001,"end":13303.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13303.032218750002,"end":13306.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13303.909718750001,"end":13303.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13316.582843750002,"end":13318.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13319.02971875,"end":13319.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":13323.40034375,"end":13324.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":13324.109093750001,"end":13327.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":13327.99034375,"end":13328.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13329.880343750003,"end":13334.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":13332.52971875,"end":13333.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13333.035968750002,"end":13333.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":13333.339718750001,"end":13333.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13333.390343750001,"end":13333.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13335.21284375,"end":13336.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13337.01846875,"end":13337.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13337.845343750003,"end":13338.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13339.27971875,"end":13341.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13342.114718750003,"end":13344.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13344.56159375,"end":13345.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13346.097218750001,"end":13346.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13346.114093750002,"end":13347.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13347.44721875,"end":13348.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13348.03784375,"end":13348.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13349.742218750001,"end":13352.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13353.218468750001,"end":13357.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13357.84221875,"end":13376.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13370.464718750001,"end":13370.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13377.09659375,"end":13389.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13389.870968750001,"end":13390.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13390.59659375,"end":13398.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13398.274718750003,"end":13398.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13398.899093750002,"end":13401.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13401.649718750003,"end":13404.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13405.227218750002,"end":13406.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13407.47159375,"end":13407.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13408.332218750002,"end":13410.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13411.251593750003,"end":13411.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13413.495968750001,"end":13416.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13416.60096875,"end":13421.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13422.50721875,"end":13429.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13429.071593750003,"end":13429.392218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13429.392218750003,"end":13436.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13437.137843750003,"end":13440.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13440.58034375,"end":13442.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13442.90909375,"end":13444.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13445.153468750003,"end":13445.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13446.452843750001,"end":13446.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13447.39784375,"end":13452.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13453.60784375,"end":13454.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13454.99159375,"end":13466.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13466.669093750003,"end":13469.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13470.044093750003,"end":13477.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13478.312843750002,"end":13478.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13478.802218750003,"end":13479.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13479.49409375,"end":13485.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13485.585968750001,"end":13486.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13486.56471875,"end":13487.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13489.112843750001,"end":13492.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13492.52159375,"end":13507.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13508.67096875,"end":13515.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13516.31534375,"end":13516.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13517.243468750003,"end":13520.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13521.462218750003,"end":13529.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13530.06846875,"end":13539.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13540.109093750001,"end":13542.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13543.332218750002,"end":13544.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13545.20534375,"end":13547.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13547.500343750002,"end":13551.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13551.90471875,"end":13553.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13554.419093750003,"end":13566.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13566.83909375,"end":13573.673468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13574.68596875,"end":13580.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13581.38534375,"end":13584.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13585.485968750003,"end":13590.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13591.004093750002,"end":13591.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13591.695968750002,"end":13593.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13594.83471875,"end":13597.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13598.648468750001,"end":13602.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13603.17096875,"end":13604.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13605.499718750001,"end":13607.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13608.047843750002,"end":13610.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13610.730968750002,"end":13616.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13617.126593750003,"end":13618.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13618.949093750001,"end":13619.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13620.231593750003,"end":13622.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13623.35346875,"end":13623.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13624.83846875,"end":13636.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13637.12346875,"end":13642.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13643.87346875,"end":13644.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13645.814093750003,"end":13646.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13647.34971875,"end":13648.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13648.750343750002,"end":13649.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13650.488468750002,"end":13651.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13651.78784375,"end":13653.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13653.239093750002,"end":13653.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13654.015343750001,"end":13664.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13665.574718750002,"end":13667.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13667.59971875,"end":13669.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13670.215343750002,"end":13670.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13671.86909375,"end":13673.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13673.843468750001,"end":13675.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13676.239718750003,"end":13678.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13678.93971875,"end":13680.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13681.26846875,"end":13682.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13682.820968750002,"end":13684.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13684.761593750001,"end":13686.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13687.52909375,"end":13691.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13693.38471875,"end":13693.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13693.97534375,"end":13695.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13696.101593750001,"end":13696.860968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13697.687843750002,"end":13701.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13702.075343750003,"end":13705.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13705.905968750001,"end":13708.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13708.74096875,"end":13710.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13710.968468750001,"end":13715.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13717.245968750001,"end":13721.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13721.97096875,"end":13733.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13735.032218750002,"end":13738.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13738.677218750003,"end":13741.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13742.49096875,"end":13744.110968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13744.667843750001,"end":13746.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13746.642218750003,"end":13748.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13749.24096875,"end":13752.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13751.282843750003,"end":13751.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13753.66221875,"end":13755.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13756.699718750002,"end":13759.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13761.15471875,"end":13765.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13765.677218750003,"end":13766.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13767.68534375,"end":13777.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13778.063468750002,"end":13782.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13783.04159375,"end":13783.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13783.68284375,"end":13784.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13784.93159375,"end":13786.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13786.973468750002,"end":13787.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13787.918468750002,"end":13789.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13789.504718750002,"end":13789.673468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13789.96034375,"end":13791.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13792.57596875,"end":13794.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13794.65159375,"end":13795.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13796.71034375,"end":13799.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13799.579093750002,"end":13799.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13800.81096875,"end":13809.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13810.345343750003,"end":13811.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13811.89784375,"end":13813.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13814.51346875,"end":13816.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13816.437218750001,"end":13816.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13816.57221875,"end":13817.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13818.58034375,"end":13819.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13818.63096875,"end":13821.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13821.65159375,"end":13823.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13823.28846875,"end":13824.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13826.140343750001,"end":13826.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13827.38909375,"end":13828.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13829.312843750002,"end":13831.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13831.995968750001,"end":13833.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13834.13909375,"end":13836.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13837.446593750003,"end":13842.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13844.280968750001,"end":13844.939093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13845.934718750003,"end":13847.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13847.470343750003,"end":13849.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13849.07346875,"end":13852.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13852.684718750003,"end":13861.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13862.57346875,"end":13864.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13864.63221875,"end":13868.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13869.32346875,"end":13870.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13871.972843750002,"end":13874.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13874.85846875,"end":13877.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13878.419093750003,"end":13881.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13882.570343750001,"end":13884.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13886.24909375,"end":13887.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13889.016593750002,"end":13891.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13893.032843750003,"end":13893.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13894.349093750003,"end":13895.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13896.32346875,"end":13896.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13897.31909375,"end":13897.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13898.48346875,"end":13899.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13900.47471875,"end":13903.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13904.305343750002,"end":13906.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13908.000968750002,"end":13908.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13909.519718750002,"end":13910.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13912.067843750003,"end":13917.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13918.125968750002,"end":13920.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13921.16346875,"end":13922.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13922.969093750002,"end":13926.360968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13926.765968750002,"end":13929.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13930.680968750003,"end":13935.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13935.65909375,"end":13938.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13939.000343750002,"end":13944.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13945.24409375,"end":13945.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13945.78409375,"end":13947.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13948.14659375,"end":13949.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13949.024093750002,"end":13949.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13949.42909375,"end":13949.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13949.749718750001,"end":13949.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13949.766593750002,"end":13949.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13949.800343750001,"end":13950.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13950.593468750001,"end":13950.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13950.67784375,"end":13950.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":13950.69471875,"end":13950.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13951.015343750001,"end":13955.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13963.047218750002,"end":13965.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13966.202843750001,"end":13967.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13970.35409375,"end":13970.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13970.45534375,"end":13970.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13970.52284375,"end":13989.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13970.759093750003,"end":13971.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13980.52971875,"end":13982.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13982.723468750002,"end":13982.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13989.422843750002,"end":13991.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13989.76034375,"end":13994.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13995.56534375,"end":14011.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14011.49534375,"end":14014.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14015.34284375,"end":14016.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14016.254093750002,"end":14021.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14021.97471875,"end":14026.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14026.98659375,"end":14033.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14033.78721875,"end":14072.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14039.625968750002,"end":14040.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14072.042843750001,"end":14074.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14074.995968750001,"end":14082.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14082.269093750001,"end":14082.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14082.640343750001,"end":14084.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14085.542843750001,"end":14089.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14089.660343750002,"end":14101.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14101.60784375,"end":14103.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14103.61596875,"end":14123.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14124.254093750002,"end":14139.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14139.94784375,"end":14144.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14144.942843750003,"end":14148.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14149.49909375,"end":14160.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14161.109093750001,"end":14170.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14161.159718750001,"end":14161.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14170.79534375,"end":14171.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14171.43659375,"end":14173.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14173.79909375,"end":14183.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14183.519093750001,"end":14191.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14191.56846875,"end":14194.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14195.449718750002,"end":14200.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14201.204093750002,"end":14208.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14208.409718750001,"end":14210.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14210.957843750002,"end":14210.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14210.97471875,"end":14221.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14221.504718750002,"end":14228.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14228.659718750001,"end":14254.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14232.405968750001,"end":14233.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14234.81909375,"end":14234.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14234.835968750001,"end":14236.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14254.07346875,"end":14262.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14254.090343750002,"end":14254.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14262.055343750002,"end":14264.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14263.523468750001,"end":14265.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14265.46409375,"end":14268.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14268.87284375,"end":14269.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14269.024718750003,"end":14270.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14270.77971875,"end":14275.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14275.62284375,"end":14281.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14275.909718750001,"end":14276.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14276.820968750002,"end":14277.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14281.59659375,"end":14281.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14281.630343750003,"end":14281.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14281.765343750001,"end":14291.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14292.632843750001,"end":14308.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14292.750968750002,"end":14292.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14299.028468750003,"end":14299.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14299.079093750002,"end":14299.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14307.837218750003,"end":14307.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14308.54596875,"end":14312.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14312.74784375,"end":14313.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14313.844718750002,"end":14315.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14314.047218750002,"end":14316.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14315.751593750003,"end":14330.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14330.43284375,"end":14358.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14345.02971875,"end":14345.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14358.023468750001,"end":14359.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14359.94721875,"end":14368.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14369.414093750001,"end":14371.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14370.88221875,"end":14376.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14371.945343750001,"end":14372.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14374.122218750003,"end":14374.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14376.94034375,"end":14383.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14384.16284375,"end":14387.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14387.48721875,"end":14391.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14391.18284375,"end":14423.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14392.785968750002,"end":14393.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14423.110343750002,"end":14423.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14423.312843750002,"end":14439.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14440.49159375,"end":14451.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14451.899093750002,"end":14456.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14456.92784375,"end":14459.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14459.340968750003,"end":14467.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14467.677218750003,"end":14477.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14467.829093750002,"end":14467.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14474.91659375,"end":14475.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14477.24534375,"end":14483.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14482.949093750001,"end":14487.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14486.15534375,"end":14489.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14488.63596875,"end":14488.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14488.652843750002,"end":14489.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14490.171593750001,"end":14498.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14491.757843750001,"end":14492.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14496.364718750003,"end":14497.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14497.140968750002,"end":14502.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14502.034718750001,"end":14507.282843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14506.253468750001,"end":14506.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14507.282843750003,"end":14507.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14507.40096875,"end":14508.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14508.02534375,"end":14510.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14510.94471875,"end":14522.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14521.94721875,"end":14522.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14524.191593750002,"end":14528.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14533.067843750003,"end":14534.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14534.77221875,"end":14535.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14539.125968750002,"end":14539.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14539.497218750003,"end":14539.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14539.800968750002,"end":14544.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14544.74534375,"end":14546.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14546.652218750001,"end":14553.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14554.27971875,"end":14555.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14556.270968750003,"end":14562.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14562.56534375,"end":14563.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14563.67909375,"end":14564.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14564.10096875,"end":14568.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14568.35346875,"end":14572.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14573.06159375,"end":14575.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14575.96409375,"end":14604.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14586.629093750002,"end":14586.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14604.48284375,"end":14608.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14609.410343750002,"end":14619.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14620.159718750001,"end":14642.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14642.586593750002,"end":14655.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14654.68596875,"end":14658.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14659.00596875,"end":14660.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14659.140968750002,"end":14659.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14660.27159375,"end":14665.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14665.958468750003,"end":14674.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14675.25659375,"end":14714.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14687.74409375,"end":14687.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14687.777843750002,"end":14689.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14714.035343750002,"end":14728.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14722.574093750001,"end":14722.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14722.590968750003,"end":14723.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14726.20221875,"end":14726.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14726.25284375,"end":14726.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":14726.87721875,"end":14727.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14728.73346875,"end":14732.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14732.47971875,"end":14733.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14732.496593750002,"end":14738.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14738.352218750002,"end":14747.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14740.07346875,"end":14740.157843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14747.59971875,"end":14758.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14752.83096875,"end":14755.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14758.956593750001,"end":14759.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14759.985968750003,"end":14760.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14760.340343750002,"end":14771.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14772.102218750002,"end":14791.204718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14791.289093750001,"end":14793.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14793.65159375,"end":14802.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14802.899093750002,"end":14807.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14807.52284375,"end":14811.454718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14811.99471875,"end":14812.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14812.028468750003,"end":14812.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14812.180343750002,"end":14812.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14812.19721875,"end":14812.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14812.26471875,"end":14812.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14813.20971875,"end":14822.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14823.351593750001,"end":14823.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14824.49909375,"end":14824.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14824.566593750002,"end":14825.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14825.71409375,"end":14825.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14825.74784375,"end":14838.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14825.81534375,"end":14828.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14835.130343750003,"end":14837.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14838.032843750003,"end":14856.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14838.066593750002,"end":14838.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14856.88221875,"end":14876.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14875.27596875,"end":14876.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14876.91284375,"end":14883.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14882.70096875,"end":14890.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14883.409718750001,"end":14885.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14886.362843750001,"end":14888.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14890.969718750002,"end":14891.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14891.847218750001,"end":14892.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14892.37034375,"end":14894.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14893.58534375,"end":14901.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14901.921593750001,"end":14912.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14916.906593750002,"end":14920.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14921.175968750002,"end":14921.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14924.702843750001,"end":14925.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14924.88846875,"end":14925.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14925.445343750001,"end":14925.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14926.204718750003,"end":14960.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14962.097843750002,"end":15033.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14989.418468750002,"end":14989.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15033.985343750002,"end":15072.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15055.062218750001,"end":15055.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":15056.715968750003,"end":15057.829718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15072.08909375,"end":15072.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15072.44346875,"end":15074.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15072.46034375,"end":15073.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15074.333468750003,"end":15085.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15083.749718750001,"end":15086.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15085.42034375,"end":15100.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15100.320968750002,"end":15101.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15101.82284375,"end":15119.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15112.724093750003,"end":15112.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15112.825343750003,"end":15112.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15112.94346875,"end":15113.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15120.199718750002,"end":15122.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15123.000968750002,"end":15124.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15124.82346875,"end":15129.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15129.76784375,"end":15139.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15139.31909375,"end":15184.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15185.20221875,"end":15195.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15195.68159375,"end":15218.091593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15218.091593750003,"end":15255.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15218.10846875,"end":15218.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15255.992843750002,"end":15260.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15258.777218750001,"end":15264.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15272.175968750002,"end":15273.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15274.285343750002,"end":15275.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15278.453468750002,"end":15278.470343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15278.470343750003,"end":15278.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15278.520968750003,"end":15278.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15278.554718750001,"end":15278.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15278.95971875,"end":15279.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15279.01034375,"end":15279.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15279.347843750002,"end":15281.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15282.300968750002,"end":15285.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15285.743468750003,"end":15299.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15299.85096875,"end":15334.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15334.680968750003,"end":15340.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15341.093468750001,"end":15341.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15341.12721875,"end":15341.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15341.19471875,"end":15341.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15341.22846875,"end":15341.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15341.86971875,"end":15350.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15350.72909375,"end":15354.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15354.036593750003,"end":15367.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15367.789718750002,"end":15400.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15401.40471875,"end":15406.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15407.378468750001,"end":15413.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15413.200343750003,"end":15416.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15416.74409375,"end":15417.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15417.48659375,"end":15421.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15422.329718750003,"end":15424.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15424.82721875,"end":15427.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15427.544093750003,"end":15449.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15450.08909375,"end":15466.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15463.251593750003,"end":15463.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15463.26846875,"end":15463.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15463.403468750003,"end":15463.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15467.234093750001,"end":15475.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15475.789718750002,"end":15486.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15476.802218750003,"end":15477.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15486.555968750003,"end":15490.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15490.622843750003,"end":15498.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15498.942218750002,"end":15534.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15532.118468750003,"end":15532.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15534.71721875,"end":15548.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15548.706593750001,"end":15557.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15558.747218750003,"end":15561.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15561.970343750003,"end":15573.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15572.90534375,"end":15576.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15575.36909375,"end":15580.482218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15580.735343750002,"end":15581.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15582.18659375,"end":15588.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15588.02534375,"end":15588.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15588.548468750003,"end":15607.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15608.359718750002,"end":15629.419718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15628.677218750003,"end":15630.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15630.90471875,"end":15633.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15633.97596875,"end":15638.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15639.173468750003,"end":15643.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15643.695968750002,"end":15647.982218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15648.235343750002,"end":15651.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15652.15034375,"end":15655.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15656.048468750003,"end":15662.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15664.722218750001,"end":15669.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15670.13909375,"end":15671.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15673.109093750001,"end":15678.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15679.032218750002,"end":15679.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15679.04909375,"end":15679.251593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15679.251593750003,"end":15679.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15679.285343750002,"end":15680.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15680.36534375,"end":15680.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15681.69846875,"end":15681.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15681.968468750001,"end":15682.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15683.352218750002,"end":15683.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15684.465968750003,"end":15688.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15689.427218750003,"end":15689.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15689.96721875,"end":15692.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15692.987843750001,"end":15696.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15696.953468750002,"end":15701.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15701.374718750001,"end":15718.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15718.55346875,"end":15721.439093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15721.675343750001,"end":15722.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15727.51409375,"end":15728.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15741.047843750002,"end":15741.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15741.874718750001,"end":15742.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15758.648468750001,"end":15759.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15768.047843750002,"end":15777.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15788.41596875,"end":15789.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15790.49159375,"end":15792.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15792.16221875,"end":15793.529093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15793.765343750001,"end":15797.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15797.39346875,"end":15798.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15798.96284375,"end":15800.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15801.122843750003,"end":15801.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15801.91596875,"end":15806.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15806.387843750003,"end":15807.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15807.78846875,"end":15810.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15811.720343750003,"end":15814.251593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15814.403468750003,"end":15825.591593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15825.81096875,"end":15828.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15828.88221875,"end":15830.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15830.35034375,"end":15831.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15832.054718750001,"end":15835.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15835.581593750001,"end":15839.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15839.344718750002,"end":15843.360968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15843.69846875,"end":15849.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15850.262843750003,"end":15855.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15856.152218750001,"end":15860.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15860.50596875,"end":15862.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15863.08784375,"end":15866.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15866.614718750003,"end":15872.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15872.36909375,"end":15874.529093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15874.714718750001,"end":15879.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15879.23721875,"end":15911.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15913.527218750001,"end":15915.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15923.500343750002,"end":15924.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15935.700968750003,"end":15937.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15937.92846875,"end":15943.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15943.46346875,"end":15948.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15948.390968750002,"end":15949.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16341.03846875,"end":16343.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16345.898468750001,"end":16350.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16366.435343750003,"end":16367.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16368.696593750003,"end":16371.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16371.531593750002,"end":16375.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16375.98659375,"end":16382.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16383.32721875,"end":16385.318468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16388.33909375,"end":16388.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16388.811593749997,"end":16390.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16391.19096875,"end":16392.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16392.794093750003,"end":16394.414093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16394.85284375,"end":16395.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16396.57409375,"end":16396.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16396.590968750003,"end":16396.607843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16396.607843750004,"end":16396.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16396.97909375,"end":16397.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16398.514718749997,"end":16400.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16400.89409375,"end":16401.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16406.88471875,"end":16452.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16452.615968750004,"end":16466.639093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16466.92596875,"end":16489.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16488.880343750003,"end":16489.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16489.99409375,"end":16490.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16490.11221875,"end":16490.888468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16490.55096875,"end":16490.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16490.888468750003,"end":16491.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16491.968468749998,"end":16492.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16492.592843749997,"end":16496.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16497.250343749998,"end":16498.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16499.545343750004,"end":16500.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16500.96284375,"end":16502.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16503.021593750003,"end":16522.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16522.309718750003,"end":16537.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16540.365968750004,"end":16544.162843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16543.36971875,"end":16543.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16545.209093750003,"end":16546.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16546.96409375,"end":16550.170343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16550.33909375,"end":16576.225343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16558.86096875,"end":16559.367218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16577.30534375,"end":16578.233468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16578.90846875,"end":16579.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16580.07284375,"end":16580.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16580.123468750004,"end":16581.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16580.781593749998,"end":16582.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16583.02596875,"end":16587.092843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16587.98721875,"end":16588.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16588.544093750003,"end":16589.202218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16590.09659375,"end":16591.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16592.49284375,"end":16593.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16594.18034375,"end":16598.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16599.78284375,"end":16602.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16603.832843750002,"end":16612.185968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16612.43909375,"end":16614.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16615.49346875,"end":16622.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16623.94784375,"end":16632.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16633.920968749997,"end":16639.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16682.976593749998,"end":16683.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16683.145343750002,"end":16683.803468750004}],"whisperx":[{"start":1777.83,"end":1799.237,"text":"好 請組密報告出席委員人數報告委員會出席委員與組法定人數好 現在開始開會請議事人員先讀上一次會議議事錄立法院第十一屆第三會期財政委員會第九次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百十四年四月二日三日星期三九十六分至十三時九分"},{"start":1799.817,"end":1818.004,"text":"地點 群選 九樓大禮堂 出席委員 賴世保委員等14人列席委員 葉元之委員等18人列席官員 財政部 政治理性 華經濟部長次賴建信 環境部 衛福部 法務部等單位代表及其相關人員 主席賴召集委員 世保報告事項 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定 議事錄確定"},{"start":1819.665,"end":1845.737,"text":"報告事項一討論事項一審查貨物稅條例三十四案一委員院知董二十一人拟據貨物稅條例三除部分條文草案案二委員廖先祥等十六人拟據貨物稅條例三除第八條條文草案案三台灣民眾黨團拟據貨物稅條例第十一條第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案案四委員邱若驊等二十人拟據貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案案"},{"start":1846.777,"end":1873.202,"text":"委員魯明哲等16人委員銀寬恆等19人委員羅廷偉等16人委員賴世保等21人委員邱振軍等22人委員徐欣盈等27人委員翁曉琳等17人委員羅明才等16人委員郭國文等17人委員王宏偉等24人委員廖偉祥等17人委員徐宇貞等21人委員黃建斌等16人委員林詩明等21人委員萬美玲等16人分別擬據護稅條例第11條之一條文修正查案"},{"start":1876.082,"end":1900.136,"text":"等十五案六 委員李坤成等二十四人擬拒獲稅條例第十一條之一第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案七 委員鄭天才等十九人委員林思明等十九人委員圖全吉等十七人委員陳玉珍等十九人委員馬雲君等十八人委員王世堅等十九人"},{"start":1900.756,"end":1926.673,"text":"委員張志仁等25人委員盧明哲等16人委員王宏偉等19人委員楊瓊英等20人委員邱振軍等24人委員萬美玲等18人委員廖偉祥等17人分別擬拒獲募稅條例第12條條文修正草案等13案8委員邱振軍等19人擬拒獲募稅條例第12條之3條文修正草案案經台灣民眾黨團代表黃珊珊委員賴世寶林思明陳玉珍王世堅葉元之羅廷偉"},{"start":1928.434,"end":1944.681,"text":"徐欣盈、王宏維、廖偉翔、黃建斌說明提案要職財政部理政次回應委員、提案後繼委員林德福等16人提出質詢財政部理政次經濟部賴長次產發署陳副署長、能源署高組長及相關人員予以答覆決議"},{"start":1945.761,"end":1962.788,"text":"說明及取答完畢 二委員諮詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會一周內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定三 貨物稅條例三四案另則其繼續審查二 審查人民起願案有關貨物稅條例七案決議另則其繼續審查 宣讀完畢謝謝 那請問各位委員對14路有沒有異議"},{"start":1971.411,"end":1999.539,"text":"好沒有異議那就是議事錄確定那請議事人員先讀今日的議程審查保險法十五案一行政院函勤審議本院委員蔡其桑等十九人委員羅廷瑋等十六人委員王世堅等十八人委員徐富奎等十六人委員蔡其桑等十九人委員蔡玉儀等十八人委員林詩敏等十八人分別履具保險法部分條文修正草案等八案二委員鍾嘉斌等二十一人"},{"start":2000.339,"end":2021.659,"text":"拟据保险法增订第123条之1条文草案案3.台湾民众党团委员陈超明等16人委员罗志强等19人委员李坤成等23人委员赖瑞荣等17人委员王美惠等17人分别拟据保险法增订174条之2及第174条之3条文草案等6案宣读而毕"},{"start":2023.032,"end":2049.693,"text":"好 謝謝 那首先先介紹在場的委員我們介紹第一位黃珊珊委員吳秉瑞委員羅志強委員張家俊委員好 那我們介紹議會的政府官員首先我們先介紹金管會主委彭主委 彭金榮彭主委華麗事務處那個林處長"},{"start":2053.408,"end":2076.867,"text":"銀行局 童局長證取局 我們張振生 張振山 對不起 張振山 張局長保險局 王立慧局長檢察局 賴局長司法院 民視廳 我們謝謝毛法官那法務部 法治司 副司長 謝志明好"},{"start":2078.359,"end":2102.955,"text":"本次會議安排審查行政院行情審議保險法部分條文修正草案委員蔡其昌等19人分別凝聚保險法部分條文修正草案委員鍾嘉斌等21人凝聚保險法增訂第123條之1條文草案台灣民眾黨黨團分別凝聚保險法增訂第174條之2第174條之3條"},{"start":2108.439,"end":2126.126,"text":"那個條文草案等15案將先請提案黨團代表委員說明提案的要旨以後我們再請金管會彭主委說明及回應黨團委員的一個提案首先我們先請台灣民眾黨黨團代表黃珊珊委員說明提案要旨是我們那個這個提案的時間說明就是三分鐘謝謝"},{"start":2137.199,"end":2148.087,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想今天這個保險法修正草案主要是2022年民事大法庭開始作出108年台抗大字第897號裁定之後"},{"start":2149.463,"end":2169.916,"text":"所有的民事執行處收到大量的保單強職事件進而出現保單強職的各種亂象去年五月台灣民眾黨率先提出了修正草案當時因為有看到很多保單強職的這些問題有些價值準備金只有幾千塊的健康險也被強制執行失去了保護的保障"},{"start":2170.436,"end":2192.357,"text":"也有一些是父母在小孩出生的時候就買的一些保障健康險但是20年後爸媽欠了錢這張保單卻因為父母的債務而被強職導致孩子失去保險的保障112年1月到113年12月總共有70多萬件的保單強職事件造成了非常多的民眾的保障"},{"start":2193.038,"end":2219.264,"text":"一夕之間消失在這些案子裡面我們發現了債權人是資產管理公司的有18萬件銀行大概有40多萬件兩者合計是58萬多件佔整體案件的75%銀行跟資產管理公司透過對保單的強制執行他並不是所謂的弱勢債權人但是他們把保單的準備金那一點點錢都擠出來造成了民眾很大很大的"},{"start":2220.345,"end":2235.206,"text":"損害所以造成很多的孩子失去了長成年以後的健康保障所以台灣民眾黨版本設計的部分是受益人的介入權受益人可以在得知相關的保單要被執行的時候可以他有他來"},{"start":2236.864,"end":2264.532,"text":"墊付償付所有債務的金額讓債權人可以拿回錢也不會讓他的保單被執行這一點後來在今年三月金管會送的草案裡面也把它納入那我們要確保債權人跟債務人他們的權利的橫平目前為止台灣民眾黨的版本在所所謂價值準備金十萬塊以下的保單健康保單跟傷害保險或者是一年期的人壽保險不得作為強制執行的標的那"},{"start":2266.112,"end":2280.897,"text":"金管會的版本是三個月的基本生活開銷所以這兩個的差距其實並不大因為三個月大概是七萬多那台灣民眾的版本是十萬我覺得這個部分可以進一步的再繼續討論那重點是今天的版本我們希望能夠全面性的來照顧讓傷害險、醫療險跟金管會的版本一樣不應該成為強制執行的標的"},{"start":2287.159,"end":2304.096,"text":"那有關的受險或投資型保單這個部分是讓債權人跟債務人在他權力平衡的情況下能夠互相作為保障我們希望民眾能夠回到保險的本質保險就是要給他保障所以這個本質不應該被強制性而剝奪以上 謝謝"},{"start":2307.011,"end":2336.153,"text":"好 接著請王世堅委員 王世堅 王世堅委員不在請林思敏 林思敏 林思敏委員不在請鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請李坤澄 李坤澄 李坤澄委員不在請蔡其昌 蔡其昌 蔡其昌委員不在請羅廷偉 羅廷偉 羅廷偉委員不在請徐虎葵 徐虎葵 徐虎葵委員不在請蔡玉瑜 蔡玉瑜 蔡玉瑜委員不在"},{"start":2337.214,"end":2343.419,"text":"請陳昌明陳昌明陳昌明委員不在請羅志強委員說明提案要旨主席各位官員各位委員今天排案針對保險法174條之二以及174條之三的修正討論"},{"start":2361.738,"end":2385.028,"text":"那事實上從我過去接到的陳情案件那在為陳情人爭取協調過程當中我看到這個修法慢慢的就出現了那原本最高法院民事大法庭108年度抬抗大致第897號裁定或許當下看見的只是一些極端的個案但是真真切切被影響的卻是因為"},{"start":2385.888,"end":2402.621,"text":"不同原因陷入經濟困頓的眾多家庭那他們都是急待被法律保障跟受到自身過去辛苦繳納保險所保障之人那所以為什麼會有這麼多不分黨派的委員提案跟重視這個案子那就是因為"},{"start":2403.542,"end":2418.199,"text":"苦民所苦啦 是關切我們的民眾現在真的是受到很大的傷害那今天不只是法律條文的技術性調整它也是關於困頓民眾的安全保障那當然也還有保險制度的信賴根基"},{"start":2418.92,"end":2436.428,"text":"以及我國整體債權制度跟強制執行程序的平衡性我們當然非常支持這項修法但我也要強調不應該片面將解約金就當作是衡量保險是否可抵押的依據應該回到保險的本質從保險金額與保險契約狀態做判準"},{"start":2439.469,"end":2465.188,"text":"才能夠真正實現保險制度的立法目的也能夠保障投保人與受益人的權益行政院版本主張以解約金額度做區分保險契約是否可做強制執行的標的因為解約金為具體可執行的價值所以有實務的操作性但事實上這樣的做法也可能導致偏離的修法我們的保障的初衷首先大部分的民眾"},{"start":2466.469,"end":2486.966,"text":"購買保險的本質是風險保障它不是單純的財富累積工具如果有這類型的商品可以設計來排除那投保人繳納保費並不是為了未來中途解約去換取解約金而是認為在面對死亡重大傷病或特定事故能夠提供家人子女受益人一筆穩定的保障"},{"start":2487.446,"end":2510.659,"text":"所以我們以解約金是否達一定金額作為決定該保單是否受法律保護的關鍵會打擊民眾長期規劃保障的意願那另外解約金的多寡與保障價值並不等同一份剛投保三年的終身受險可能解約金很低但是保障金額卻已經高達數百萬元所以這也是可能要去思考的一個重點"},{"start":2511.559,"end":2537.216,"text":"那我同意為了平衡債務人債權人權益跟保險保護的界線應該要適當退縮主張豁免強制執行的保險種類那這些怎麼樣去來去類型化這個我們都可以再來去確認總而言之我希望這次的修法能夠去彌補我們本來之前造成這個保護以及我們的一般民眾的一個很大的傷害我們大家一起來完成這個修法謝謝"},{"start":2543.817,"end":2564.993,"text":"好 我們補充介紹林德虎委員是接著我們請賴瑞榮委員不在請王美惠 王美惠 王美惠委員不在那接著我們請金管會彭主委說明跟回應黨團及委員提出的提案內容"},{"start":2570.41,"end":2592.245,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位媒體先進 大家早安首先對於貴委員會今天優先審議保險法部分條文修正草案並邀請提出報告表達由衷的謝意以下僅就各項草案以及大院諸位委員所提保險法部分條文修正草案的內容分別提出本會意見 敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":2593.627,"end":2615.179,"text":"鑑於最高法院民事大法庭之裁定後對債務人之受險契約申請強制執行案件咒爭衍生使債務人及其親屬之受險保障喪失且擴及健康及傷害保險契約除此保護可能喪失醫療保障外亦造成執行機關作業負擔增加衍生龐大社會成本"},{"start":2616.199,"end":2640.185,"text":"為解決衍生問題本會凝聚保險法部分條文修正草案明定不得作為扣押或強制執行標的保險類型同時引入介入權制度且明定保險業作業委託他人處理之法律授權依據及法則及國人得透過保險經紀人向國外之保險業投保之除外規定含送大院審議"},{"start":2641.755,"end":2666.236,"text":"本次草案主要內容請參閱報告第三至四頁主要內容包括第123條之一 民定可強制執行與扣押之標的及獲免額度第129條之一 第130條 第132條之一民定健康保險及傷害保險不得為扣押或強制執行之標的第123條之二 引入國外借助權制度"},{"start":2667.017,"end":2684.97,"text":"第148條之三第171條之一明定作業委外他人法律授權及罰則第167條之一明定配合政策需要經公告之保險得向國外保險公司投保第168條之七配合洗錢防治法修正刪除"},{"start":2685.99,"end":2706.077,"text":"有關大院委員羅廷偉等、委員王世堅等、委員徐富奎等、台灣民眾黨團委員陳超明等、委員羅志強等、委員李坤成等、委員賴瑞榮等、委員王美惠等,分別擬拒之修正條文草案,真定不得作為扣押或強制執行標的之保險契約類型之規定。"},{"start":2707.398,"end":2728.605,"text":"上開各委員提案之條文內容與本會於去年113年6月至8月預告的條文內容相同為外界對前開本會第一次預告條文草案多有不同意見如認為獲免額度可能過高恐影響債權實現債權之利益而且將大幅增加作業負擔等"},{"start":2729.766,"end":2738.267,"text":"鑒於債權人尚非必然屬財力資源優勢之一方又前接預告草案內容與各委員提案條文內容"},{"start":2739.167,"end":2759.26,"text":"需逐漸確認合計解約金及保險金額因此均衍生相當巨大之社會成本令考量保險金之請求權與本次民事大法庭裁定係針對債務人之、要保人之情形有別原本次修法仍僅就要保人具有之權利及解約金為必要之規範"},{"start":2760.612,"end":2781.053,"text":"原建議一行政院提案修正就人壽保險及年金保險採各有效契約之解約金債權位於一定金額標準者及不得作為扣押或強制執行標的之規定二有關委員羅廷偉等委員王世堅等委員徐富奎等委員鍾嘉斌等"},{"start":2782.011,"end":2793.376,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團委員樓志強等委員李坤城等及委員賴岳榮等及委員王美惠等擬拒之條文修正草案增訂介入權制規定"},{"start":2794.932,"end":2818.774,"text":"委員所提介入權人六個月內不行使其權利消滅之規定考量六個月行使期間雖可使介入權有充分準備時間為將使執行作業期間延長增加執行機關負擔也恐將影響債務人投保權益未立法律關係禁訴確定原建議仍維持原定行使期間三個月之規定"},{"start":2820.195,"end":2842.131,"text":"針對委員所提介入權人資格範圍限於對被保險人具有保險利益者之規定為提升未來介入權實施效益並考量條文已經納入需經原邀保人及被保險人同意以可有效防阻道德風險原建議依行政院提案修正"},{"start":2844.056,"end":2865.539,"text":"而各委員提案常在後須由執行機關通知史稱變更效率之規定為免去審核借入權資格及通知之負擔原建議借入權生效要件依行政院提案修正為由借入權人書面通知保險人有關委員蔡其昌等委員蔡一羽等委員林思敏等"},{"start":2867.785,"end":2892.083,"text":"擬據修正條文增訂不得作為扣押或強制執行標的保險契約類型介入權之規定與行政院提案內容相同至於豁免作為扣押或執行標的門檻金額除委員林思明等18人所提案採用政府公告之最低工資之三個月金額外其委員提案均與行政院提案條文相同本會對於該豁免門檻金額之決定取決"},{"start":2895.458,"end":2910.928,"text":"在確保檢證辨明降低社會成本並橫憑債權債務人權益等立法目的前提下尊重大院各委員會各委員審議共識有關委員蔡其昌等委員羅廷偉等委員王世堅等委員徐富奎等"},{"start":2912.173,"end":2926.753,"text":"延提之修正草案有關保險業無法承保特定對象經保險經紀人向主管機關申請核准者得向國外之保險業投保之規定雖提案與本會預告條文內容相同"},{"start":2927.873,"end":2945.098,"text":"為有民眾認為預告條文中除疏規定之定義尚非明確原建議依行政院提案修正為除屬配合政府政策需要且經主管機關公告之保險透過保險經紀人向國外之保險業投保者外"},{"start":2946.667,"end":2961.894,"text":"本次函請審議之保險法草案目的在於確保國人與保險契約受強制執行時仍能維持生活經濟安定所必須之基本保險保障發揮保險安定社會功能並兼顧債權與債權人與債務人權益又考量其中"},{"start":2967.316,"end":2991.43,"text":"超過七成以上為健康保險及傷害保險契約源於其未來修法後得大幅減少保險強制執行案件量緩解法院龐大人力作業負擔有力降低社會成本另亦得完善及強化保險建立法制提升消費者投保權益以上報告敬請各位委員會議指教與支持並祝委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝"},{"start":2993.264,"end":3015.27,"text":"好 謝謝現在我們開始詢答先做以下的宣告每位出席的委員花言的時間是8分鐘必要的時候得以延長2分鐘每位列席的委員花言的時間是5分鐘那今天上午10點我們截止花言的一個登記本次會議委員若有相關的一個修正動議請進送財政委員會"},{"start":3017.931,"end":3031.457,"text":"議事人員收件 畢立後續的一個審查程序現在依登記的順序 請第一位登記的林德虎委員質詢謝謝那我們預計在嚴寬衡委員質詢後休息十分鐘謝謝 謝謝主席是不是來請金管會彭主委好 請彭主委"},{"start":3046.786,"end":3066.754,"text":"委員長主委我請教你因為今天要討論保險法條文的修訂那院版草案啦授權保單節約金採用每人每月最低生活費1.2倍來計算的三個月金額那計算他的豁免範圍"},{"start":3069.135,"end":3090.292,"text":"有人認為條件傾斜 傾斜銀行資產公司這些債權人司法院則主張去年參採軍管會意見 把法院執行原則明定小兒中老保險商品不得強制執行"},{"start":3091.613,"end":3106.18,"text":"那結果院版保險法修正草案卻沒有把小兒中老列為豁免的執行標的那我請問主委行政院版的保險法草案為什麼會"},{"start":3108.542,"end":3131.142,"text":"這個承讓後發生這麼多不同意見的爭議呢謝謝委員提供這個機會讓我來說明一下其實我們這次我們後來整體的考量原來第一版的這些指導原則裡面提到了所謂的排除項目裡面包含了除了契約本身的權益還包括因為契約衍生出來的比如說保險給付"},{"start":3132.463,"end":3149.853,"text":"因為這個被強制執行的標的是契約保險金是因為這個保險契約所衍生出來的一個權利那並不必然屬於這個債務人比如說還有剛剛提到有關特殊的險種比如說小額中老保險其實小額中老保險不是一個法律的名詞是一個商品的名稱"},{"start":3150.874,"end":3169.707,"text":"那過去呢其實它跟我們一般的終身受險並沒有特別的差異只是它在政策上它給予一些參數的設定那我想這部分我們回歸到一個法條的時候我們希望能夠整合的真的回歸到就是我們的本質上針對契約本身的權利那至於說"},{"start":3170.847,"end":3196.032,"text":"如果各位委員對各種的比如說這些排除項目大家有共識我們今晚會是尊重不過我們該講的就是說我們還是回歸到契約為這個強制執行的對象我們盡量不要針對某個特殊的嫌腫特別是小額中老保險不是一個法律周延的名詞所以我們就沒有把它納入主要是這樣跟委員做說明彭主委啊比如院版草案對小額中老保險商品的豁免與否"},{"start":3197.532,"end":3213.272,"text":"金管會是不是受到外界的壓力所以說才發生抗法前後不一的這種狀況我們看我們的條文我們回歸到因為我們人身保險有四大類商品一個叫人壽保險一個叫年金一個叫傷害及意外"},{"start":3214.013,"end":3237.152,"text":"我想這裡比較大的爭議主要是說我們過去的人身保險裡面的人壽保險契約以及年金保險契約人壽保險契約有兩種給付一種是生存給付一種是死亡給付大家比較關心的就是以死亡為主的人壽保險契約但是大家想到比如說比較有可能累積這個比較大的現金價值就是解約金的可能是有關生存給付的保險"},{"start":3237.898,"end":3255.666,"text":"那我想說剛才講小兒中老保險只是一般的險種它並沒有特別我們就把它涵蓋在我們的一般的那個險種裡面就是用人壽保險契約來做一個框架並沒有說特別針對否則我們現在商品非常非常的多我們各式各樣的商品其實各式各樣提供各種保障的產品非常的多"},{"start":3256.286,"end":3269.159,"text":"我請教 因為司法院民視廳民視廳的廳長林俊炎曾表示保單被扣押的標準屬於政策性決定如果今天大家認為保險有"},{"start":3272.142,"end":3297.317,"text":"特殊性要做一些例外的安排其實在保險法這邊的豁免標準其實並不當然要參考強制執行法現有的標準要採取什麼樣的標準我們要尊重主管機關還有立法院的討論這政策性的決定那我請問主委"},{"start":3298.971,"end":3323.83,"text":"司法院針對保險法修法的立場你認為比現行保險法豁免項目範圍到底是寬還是延呢我想兩個的規範的方法不一樣我覺得有些情況是不一樣比如說我們現在回歸到以這個我們保險法上四大險種裡面這樣的規律的方式我們盡量不要用市場商品的名稱不過我剛才也提到就是說"},{"start":3324.591,"end":3346.443,"text":"我們社會上有多元的意見比如說我們現在我們知道小和中和保險現在實務上他們已經列入在我們的排除項目之內我只是說假設未來大家有共識希望針對某一類的人壽保險要做一些排除以後他直接考慮的話我是建議不要用一個商品的名稱作為列入法律的這樣能夠用周延的法律名稱來描述這個內容"},{"start":3348.504,"end":3374.162,"text":"那個彭主委啊又或者司法院不希望承擔對債務人執行上的道德的責任所以才會這樣的來回應修法其實不是不是喔不是我上次有提過因為這是一個非常複雜的問題各位可以看得到我們這麼多委員這麼關心提出這麼多的草案代表說這個確實是一個很大的社會關注的問題但是呢就是說"},{"start":3375.043,"end":3403.885,"text":"我們上次也提過今晚會修法的時候我們是被動修法其實過去在這麼多年來保險契約一直都不會是一個強制執行的那個對象剛剛也提到因為我們的大法庭裁示以後呢裁開案件量增加我們必須被動去解決這個問題所以我們才會提這個修法我們沒有什麼立場那比如說我們沒有偏向任何誰我們上次講過我們有三個原則第一個我們希望能夠維持保險的最低的社會保障的這樣一個這個概念這一定要維持"},{"start":3404.545,"end":3422.683,"text":"再來第二個我們要以最低的社會成本來考量再來就是我們要橫評各方的利害關係人我想在大法庭的財事裡面他也特別講到就是說我們必須符合比例原則必須適當的方式去橫評各方的權利我想大法庭財事也講了這件事情並不是要完全以債務人或債權人絕對不是這個考量"},{"start":3424.625,"end":3441.777,"text":"主委上個禮拜有個新聞標題引起本席的注意那就是金管會全台唯一授權就是必商設炸根據報導這家必商是必享科技"},{"start":3443.098,"end":3461.948,"text":"那涉詐洗錢也就疑似與詐團合作幫助詐團來收取轉換被害人現金那我請問主委金管會對這則新聞有沒有什麼回應當然我們對於像因為其實跟委員報告一下"},{"start":3462.648,"end":3486.303,"text":"我們對VASP我們從洗錢上次做完洗錢聲明以後呢實際上這個是先做一個行為的管理我們對他們本身的機構呢我們現在是在今年3月30號以前他們要來採登記制B廠這一家雖然也有提出登記但是在爆發這件事情的時候我們已經派檢察局人員到現場去那我的意思是說他們現在就是因為這樣我們現在還沒有針對這個機構做一個納管"},{"start":3489.745,"end":3513.99,"text":"所以這部分我們未來是希望能夠朝這個方向趕快來加緊還有剛剛提到說對外的廣告其實不見得是真的比如說我們只是做洗房聲明而且他只是做一個洗房聲明並不代表他所有的行為都是合法為什麼必享科技必商為什麼會是金管會唯一授權"},{"start":3515.07,"end":3538.757,"text":"那是他自己廣告不是這個他有做了一個叫做洗房的聲明我想根據洗房法的時候他在台灣經營這個相關的活動跟業務必須要做完這個聲明才可以來做這件事情那如果他真的是唯一那請問授權魅龍和業務範圍包括哪些部分反之啊如果不是唯一那麼軍管會到底"},{"start":3539.657,"end":3549.208,"text":"有哪些措施不論現階段或是未來能夠對這些避傷來進行有效的監管 監理我們去年這個"},{"start":3554.474,"end":3573.94,"text":"那個洗錢防濕法修改以後我們從寬鬆的聲明制改成登記制就對這些機構進行管理我們的期限是3月31號沒有提出申請的接下來你還經營這個業務就有刑責處理所以到3月31號呢那有沒有人來申請有有有現在有20"},{"start":3576.261,"end":3592.35,"text":"有31家31家那個主委就本席了解兩年前金管會奉行行政院的指定來擔任具金融投資或支付性質的虛擬資產平台的主管機關並採循序漸進的方式來強化國內虛擬資產平台對客戶之權利的保護"},{"start":3602.355,"end":3618.706,"text":"那主委你曾說今年6月30號以前一定會將虛擬資產專法草案來送入行政院那我請問主委專法草案的制定是不是對虛擬資產加密貨幣的監管賦予一步到位的原則範圍"},{"start":3620.341,"end":3635.625,"text":"跟我們報告我不敢講一步到位但是絕對是朝向更健全更周延的管理我們把那個規範的內容跟相關的罰則行動都大幅的提高而且對他的業務範圍做明確的界定那是不是未來是採取漸進式的開放"},{"start":3638.406,"end":3653.739,"text":"陳柱委員那個這個指示就是說我們到6月30號我們會把這個條文送進行政院我們現在條文已經在預告我想我們也在持續在對社會溝通這個條文已經在預告在收集各方意見中主委啊"},{"start":3655.365,"end":3670.662,"text":"譚如寧說過面對虛擬資產和加密貨幣發展台灣絕對不可落後於全球甚至因此錯過了這些珍貴的機會那避想科技啊"},{"start":3672.103,"end":3699.517,"text":"這件案子目前在偵查階段本席不希望預測這個個案的狀況導致加深外界對虛擬資產和加密貨幣未來推動的餘力那我請問主委未來虛擬資產服務法通過之後你認為在安全考量上虛擬服務能不能做到如同民眾我們對銀行的信任那種程度"},{"start":3700.177,"end":3722.495,"text":"我想有的專法裡面的一些的比較更嚴謹的規範必然不管安全度跟周延性一定是大幅提高我想這個當然未來合規的廠商也不見得會那麼多因為這部分我們的條件是變嚴格的我們也希望說這個市場要發展一定要在一個安全穩健的前提才允許它做發展"},{"start":3723.055,"end":3729.637,"text":"我希望這個一定要做到很嚴謹而且讓民眾認為說我只要參與就像我們去銀行一樣他才會放心好不好謝謝謝謝 請吳秉瑞委員質詢"},{"start":3761.033,"end":3763.877,"text":"主席麻煩請金管會彭主委好彭主委"},{"start":3768.706,"end":3776.152,"text":"主委先應媒體要求問一個題外話股票市場從川普關稅政策以來崩盤到17300多點那現在已經回到兩萬以上了"},{"start":3781.991,"end":3808.299,"text":"媒體想要請教你說這個限空令要不要繼續執行我想跟委員報告就是說其實我們的限空令本來就是隨時動態調整我們一個前提上是也在我們對外的發布新聞稿很明確的說明就是我們現在關注了很多的狀況現在還在處於一個有高度不確定當然大家都看到最近我們的整個台灣的資本市場大概隨著國際上面的消息越來越這個"},{"start":3810.64,"end":3811.58,"text":"你有沒有預估大概還要多久的時間?"},{"start":3827.847,"end":3843.518,"text":"這要看我們現在的國際上狀況我想從過去的經驗知道現在很多事情可預測度比較低我們需要比較長一點點的時間來觀察國際上的一些特別是我們國際之間有關關稅的談判的結果以及相關其他經濟參數的改變"},{"start":3846.36,"end":3872.787,"text":"我想無論是現空令或是說這個國安基金的進場都是在股市在非正常狀況之下恐慌心理所實施的政策那如果那樣的狀況解除之後還是要回到股市的正常狀態那當然才是正辦那就希望你考量好 再來我們就請教今天的問題剛剛前面的委員有問到的我就了解因為他們現在是讓小額中老保險這是一個商品名稱它並不是一個"},{"start":3875.768,"end":3896.513,"text":"一個法律名詞也就是說不同的保險公司假設你今天特別一個講一個法律上面講一個小兒中老保險然後這個豁免那我將來保險公司我會推出一個事實上的內容不一定是小兒中老保險但是我就給他掛一個小兒中老保險的這樣子的契約在那邊那這個會發生爭議但是你現在這個原來的他一個豁免的條件裡面有講說是"},{"start":3903.187,"end":3928.29,"text":"這個直轄市政府宣布的最低生活經費的1.2倍三個月那如果以台北市算起來的話這樣大概是多少錢台北市他們現在一個月是兩萬多嘛乘上1.2乘以3大概是7萬3、7萬4這樣那叫做小額中老保險就你知道市場上目前的小額中老保險如果解約之後他的保險的殘值應該是很低吧既然是小額啊"},{"start":3929.351,"end":3958.075,"text":"那個小額綜合保險是他的保額我們現金就是90萬對那但是因為主要是這個有很大的差異跟你的年紀有關比如說我今天很年輕去買那個小額綜合保險其實我的保費是很便宜要累積到7萬塊的這個解約金非常的那額度會非常的高不是不是我的意思你倒過來說啦就是要跟保險公司解約保險公司要把原來的作業費什麼維約金什麼都扣掉之後才有產值是那你這個"},{"start":3960.041,"end":3986.094,"text":"豁免如果照你剛剛算法台北市的豁免至少是七萬多塊嘛那本席本來就主張說我們全國要一致不要以生活圈在台北市戶籍在台南工作在台東然後會產生不同的計算會非常的麻煩這個有司法成本在裡面所以我一向主張而且我朝央已經提出來今天我們主席有答應我今天不會租條啦所以我那個朝央應該會來得及我要求照全國最高的"},{"start":3986.894,"end":4007.931,"text":"直轄市它的1.2倍 乘以三個月嘛所以這個大概將來是會 如果你願意採用這個看法我的意思是說 目前所現存的小額中老保險喔它解約之後的殘值 剩下的價值要高過7萬多塊錢的 幾乎很少啦因為你的保險的總標的 總給付才90萬"},{"start":4013.715,"end":4026.336,"text":"所以你自己已經投保進去的這個金額你所繳納的金額其實相當有限那相當有限解約之後扣掉違約金扣掉一些手續費還剩下的產值我認為都達不到這個標準"},{"start":4027.635,"end":4054.261,"text":"對就是這個如果說一般狀況的話確實這樣因為但是就是因為假設你是高齡投保的話那個那個保費比較貴因為我們的小兒中保險有個條件就是你可以比較高齡也可以來申請所以這個部分因為他是保死亡險所以年紀越大死亡率越高其他保費是越高的但是就是說這個條件就是會因為不同的年紀差異不過剛剛陳儒委員講的"},{"start":4056.661,"end":4072.354,"text":"我是非常贊成第一個其實假設我們一個保險你繳了保費跟產生解約金之間的過程會有很大的落差我想各位都知道按照保險法的規定我們第一年是沒有現金價值的到第二年才開始就過了一年以後"},{"start":4074.095,"end":4100.968,"text":"而且前幾年都會非常低啦因為他前面的作業費用會非常的高包括佣金啊包括經紀人的這些費用全部都是要給你算在這裡面的啊我們假設有人故意要用保險去做規避債務這個成本太高我只能說他這個成本太高甚至我以前還跟你談過我認為說這個解約如果是被強制執行有的時候不一定是"},{"start":4102.569,"end":4123.431,"text":"這個投保人的這個問題所以能不能扣這麼多的這個這個違約金解約的金額我曾經跟你討論過這個問題但是如果你後來去了解他的費率結構裡面確實裡面並沒有一個叫做就是因為這個其實要解約收益這個項目所以我們也有認真考慮過這個問題不過剛剛委員有提到就是說"},{"start":4124.352,"end":4150.595,"text":"那標準就是要不要採用一個比較奇異而且比較容易簡證辨明的做法這點上次委員在質詢的時候也曾經說我們有回去好好研究過這樣的一個可行性就是說確實因為我們的原則就是希望能夠降低社會成本那因為否則像剛剛委員提到雖然我們現在的強化執行的實務上已經有了這個實務但是保險的又更複雜比如說它的"},{"start":4151.235,"end":4166.557,"text":"人的這個要保的所在地他的住所在哪裡還有生活生活所在地還有這個這個還有居住將來會變這樣執行法院會被被施法成本會非常的高了對如果要逐一去認定那就太累了對如果只是為了"},{"start":4167.718,"end":4182.193,"text":"滿足我們基本的條件以最低的成本我是覺得剛剛委員提的是可以來考慮啦好另外你的報告第四頁他的第五項講說你們準備修正第167條之一民定署配合"},{"start":4183.394,"end":4200.815,"text":"政府政策需要且經主管機關公告之保險得透過保險經紀人向國外之保險業投保那言下之意是這樣的保單台灣沒有賣嗎是的主要是台灣沒有賣或是台灣賣的東西沒辦法符合他的需要是那當然也不太可能"},{"start":4202.2,"end":4217.867,"text":"這個保單可以為他量身訂做嗎應該也不會吧因為保單都要經過審查因為他有時候是小樣需求其實這個東西當時一個起因原來是我們很多的比如說我們代表國家出國比賽的國手他很多的那個台灣的保單沒辦法滿足他"},{"start":4218.007,"end":4246.622,"text":"還是因為我們的保單事實上都經過保險局審過啦所以你這個外國的保單是不是你們意思你們也要了解所以要非常非常的嚴謹因為我們過去對所謂的地下保單沒有核准的保單我們做非常嚴格的管控我們不希望這個條文有人產生任何疑義說我們在開放這個事情所以前面會加上那幾個很重要的條件好那就另外再問這個美國總統川普當選之後因為他有很多的這個經濟跟財政政策使得全世界都有一個不安定感"},{"start":4247.242,"end":4261.741,"text":"那前一陣子也發生了這個美債長期的美債這個大幅拋售所以跌價的問題那跌價會造成說你這個保險公司的上面損失嗎所以我們知道這個所謂的美債我只要期間夠了"},{"start":4263.223,"end":4277.826,"text":"譬如說我十年期最長十年期我十年期到我本金也是全部都拿回來然後每一個每一年所拿到的利息我也拿得到但是因為美債是開放交易所以當美債下跌的時候長期的美債下跌的時候"},{"start":4278.787,"end":4300.949,"text":"帳面上就出現保險的評價損失這個評價損失如果在川普政策的不穩定狀況下有時候會出現比較大的金額那我知道以前金管會就曾經同意說那不一定要馬上去做這個評價損失因為這樣子去對於他的資本失足率有所質疑這個可不可以再請你再說一下"},{"start":4301.249,"end":4323.338,"text":"是這樣主要是因為我們會計上我們在過去這個所謂的債務工具就是債券他會根據你經營模式來區分有一種持有到期其實大部分的保險公司他持有債都是蠻長期他真的就是為了要配合他的負債所以他是以持有到期所以我們常講AC攤銷戶成本他是不隨著評價而去做這個評價的"},{"start":4324.659,"end":4342.01,"text":"那另外一種當然它是會以交易為目的那當然就要評價還有另外一個OCI的部分我想主要是這樣保險業過去在這個地方因為我們會計制度上是要評價但實際上它經營模式確實是它不會事實上台灣的保險公司持有美債都非常的巨額"},{"start":4343.13,"end":4366.289,"text":"其實比例其實以美債的話公司債比較多其實美國公債比例不高是好那如果是這樣的話將來要實施的新的會計準則的接軌之後這個會不會這個當然就會變化因為我們過去的會計準則是資產會按照那個市價來波動但負債是固定的到了2026明年以後呢就資產跟負債兩個波動他們會重分類"},{"start":4367.17,"end":4384.444,"text":"因為他就必須要把過去這個不平價的他為了配合他的負債他要重分類這時候就能夠同步的去做這樣的波動做所謂的反而更能夠適應現在的狀況是比較能夠能夠吻合整個所謂的資產負債管理的精神"},{"start":4384.977,"end":4397.473,"text":"好 因為我覺得這個美債的波段如果大的話不是只有美國的國家公債它的公事債也有可能出現這樣的狀況這個將來都會有影響還有利率的問題也是一個非常重要的因素謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝接著請內斯堡委員質詢"},{"start":4416.885,"end":4444.373,"text":"謝謝主席有請金管二的彭主委好 請彭主委委員長主委長首先我想請教先請教因為今天談到保險的相關的題目那這個這個主委是不是態度很清楚贊同應該是我們主席所提到的就是要執行的話"},{"start":4446.095,"end":4472.39,"text":"除了一些之外 授選的不應該執行 這個態度確定是不是就是成為我們版本裡面 我們希望能夠趕快來解決這個社會非常龐大社會成本的問題我們當然是態度很明確這個龐大有多龐大 這金額有大概多少這個我們從件數來看 因為這個所有的件數都要必須透過我們授選工會去查詢我們看到統計到去年年底大概有超過一百萬件"},{"start":4473.795,"end":4501.485,"text":"金額呢金額我們看不到因為這只有案件必須要查過他一件一件去看所以這是一個比較難的地方大概什麼時候可以全部搞定這件事情假如我們修法過了如果說我真的這個如果說這個會期能過的話就按照剛才看的話那一百多萬件裡面有將近七成三七成四就是我們今天的健康跟傷害這能夠就把它直接就排除掉了這個會期如果通過法案"},{"start":4502.265,"end":4518.824,"text":"再加六個月可以全部處理完畢嗎這部分就要看我們的司法程序先要有法源嘛再來第二個就是剩下的兩層多如果再把那個門檻再把它做一些排除的話我覺得就可以大幅降低我們修法過了"},{"start":4522.688,"end":4538.97,"text":"基本上我也態度清楚了你的態度也清楚了我才Plus六個月給你處理完可以不可以處理完跟委員報告這可能要請教我們的司法體系這個我沒辦法代為委員對我們當然希望盡快我們假設站在金管會協助的立場"},{"start":4540.172,"end":4554.293,"text":"就這樣講我再問一個更直接直白的題目好了好不好如果一切都順利沒有遭到任何的阻撓的話半年內消耗完了plus半年是不是可以解決"},{"start":4556.156,"end":4573.011,"text":"我們當然期待越快越好 特別是我們可以來做一些協助假設這裡面很多是由我們金融機構所提出的話我們會盡量的請他們趕快去把這個東西完成所以基本上你樂觀見到修完完畢以後半年內解決這個問題"},{"start":4576.575,"end":4583.323,"text":"我當然希望越快越好能夠比他更早我更期待這個我們可能就是真的要請那個但是如果我們的期望是越快越好"},{"start":4594.943,"end":4621.289,"text":"好 你還是沒有回答問題這個我們來看 壽險業淨紙商業跌了2000億主要是匯率的問題 股票的問題債券的問題 三殺根據IFAS 這裡面利息不足要增資喔他有一定的程序對 這個是不是會要求他們因為我查了一下 增資的公司也不多"},{"start":4622.487,"end":4624.91,"text":"主要現在正在增資計畫執行中的就是一家那當然持續的我們這個增資計畫不斷的會push他們這沒有問題"},{"start":4638.966,"end":4654.415,"text":"面對台幣可能會持續的升值啊那你們對上市櫃公司的監理的措施有沒有要加強的部分有沒有上市櫃的金融機構嗎還是上市櫃公司上市櫃公司也是你們管的啊"},{"start":4654.995,"end":4676.331,"text":"不是只有金融機構這個我們對上市櫃公司我們是主要上市櫃分兩大塊一個是金融的一個是非金融業對這兩個強度完全不同因為我們對上市櫃公司我們是做一個主要是做資訊的揭露還有整個盡量把它資訊揭露出來這個但我們對金融機構又加上上市櫃我們會看的是金融機構我們對金融機構"},{"start":4678.212,"end":4692.963,"text":"對他一些財務上面的影響的監控像剛剛委員提到RBC我們按照現在保險法的規定我們要看兩期兩期我們每半年看一次兩次以後呢他就進入到我們的警戒警戒我們會請他提一個計畫計畫"},{"start":4696.024,"end":4712.498,"text":"我們覺得再惡化我們就會請他增資這有一定的步驟請問你有沒有因為應付這個川普上來關稅的一個impact之後有沒有對他們要求做壓力測試這個是我們持續在處理確實我們對這個項目不是不是 我的問題是川普是要宣布對等關稅之後"},{"start":4722.766,"end":4734.103,"text":"這樣子造成全世界金融市場大混亂之後你們有沒有因為這樣子要求他們做壓力測試我們其實上有因應的做法"},{"start":4734.906,"end":4736.807,"text":"我們有在做這樣情境的分析壓力測試是一個制式的東西壓力測試是全面的 因應影響的影響"},{"start":4758.303,"end":4784.959,"text":"可見得沒有嘛你只是沒有這樣做只是說按照過去慣例到了就要做這個到了就要做那個沒有真正的做壓力測試根據不同的行業我們像我們銀行業的話我們就會沒有我就不講其他行業我覺得真的銀行業其實壓力測試是非常重要的但面對這一次你看美國的股會債三殺的情況之下壓力測試是非常重要的"},{"start":4785.7,"end":4796.617,"text":"這我同意你同意吧為什麼不做呢就跟委員講就一部分而已啦你有權任啦我們有做什麼時候可以做全面"},{"start":4798.595,"end":4815.242,"text":"這個部分我可不可以請銀行局局長來跟各位說明一下局長講一下什麼時候可以做全面包委員有針對這次川普所造成的衝擊我們相關的參數已經有改變了那我們大概預計會在今年的七八月左右會出來"},{"start":4816.121,"end":4844.321,"text":"七八月全面的金融業的壓力測試可以出來銀行業銀行業銀行業其他的證券不要證券不需要了證券不需要證券本來不需要好來第三個問題因為我們時間有限第三個問題主委站在你是一個證券市場的一個主管單位最高主管你站不站成國安基金要擴大規模"},{"start":4847.319,"end":4863.746,"text":"這個確實像文提到這不說主政不過我們當然是希望說因為國安基金的目的當時成立的市場的規模跟現在應該是有很大的差距所以如果說能夠加大這個市場穩定的機制其實我們看歷代歷次來看"},{"start":4868.232,"end":4883.084,"text":"這個argument這個基本上是 我不知道怎麼去形容它啦這是很獨特的或者奇怪的一個argument因為我們現在市值 從10年前2015年它的市值就是24兆"},{"start":4887.027,"end":4899.979,"text":"現在是70兆了 看起來跟我膨脹了這麼多所以這個國安基金擴大規模好像有必要聽起來都合理 相關的觀點也說對我 要我 要我可是我們仔細看喔 仔細看喔"},{"start":4901.516,"end":4928.814,"text":"根據過去進場的八次互談國安基金都花很少錢啦國安基金一進去大家就安心啦所以國安基金是給大家安心的不是真正用那個錢啦最多起來那一次2000年的時候網路泡沫用了1227億你看在2020年的時候3月22日新冠肺炎只用了7億啊"},{"start":4930.137,"end":4952.87,"text":"只用了7億啊2022年俄互戰爭只用了545億啊這個是不是會說話啊五千億綽綽有餘啊這個你要把它整個叫幾億這個問題就在於是心理作用只要說喔國安基金緊扭啊大家都問啊還有一個很重要的原因因為我們還有四大基金在旁邊護盤啊"},{"start":4954.446,"end":4961.085,"text":"四大基金在旁邊互攀 工股 行股在旁邊互攀錢有的是啊 政府一聲立下 啟動金幣"},{"start":4962.847,"end":4991.4,"text":"我這樣講對吧這個很多不是我們金管會所能夠了解的內容啦我就給你提過數字啦 數字在這裡啦包括四大基金 公股 行庫都不是金管會對啦 所以我剛才就問你嘛就是你的態度要不要擴大這個國安基金所以我剛才跟委員報告過了我從我們資本市場安定的這個基礎角度來看規模已經長到這樣 我們是支持的"},{"start":4992.06,"end":5014.526,"text":"是支持的啦 但是就是從擴大的規模這麼大是支持可是從歷史事件來看 其實五千億是夠的啦因為他最多只用到一千兩百多億啊 政府一來啊 安啊 打個安而已啊這個賣是一個心理作戰 很多在講古斯福西是跟心理作戰"},{"start":5015.666,"end":5041.12,"text":"是跟心理作戰有人去教這個啊心理投資學啊就是把規模擴大也是一種心理上面的層面很重要的影響可以說啦心理這個我也沒什麼太大意見要寒說擴大也可以擴大但是問題我就要讓大家知道其實國安基金的進來心理的護盤比實質的護盤更加重要因為代表國家重視這個問題"},{"start":5042.561,"end":5061.851,"text":"大家就安心了請問你平盤以下禁止放空還要持續多久我們現在政策不是沒有到平盤以下禁止放空我們只是對比率做一個限制我們剛剛委員也有隨詢過我說這個東西我們在對外都是隨時滾動調整我們觀看的這些比如說我們國際的情勢是不是已經"},{"start":5071.056,"end":5076.02,"text":"現在穩定了沒有比我們前一陣子現在穩定很多了你要講穩定投資的人也有信心市場終究要回到我們市場的機制去"},{"start":5086.049,"end":5086.329,"text":"現在數位存款僅有"},{"start":5108.537,"end":5126.795,"text":"兩千多戶 兩千五百多萬戶就差不多一個人一戶這裡面我們結果有委員就執行過了這個銀行暫停用自然冷憑證因為那個很容易被砸棄我談到砸棄這個你們怎麼管"},{"start":5127.956,"end":5155.886,"text":"其實我們也關注到我們從今年年初開始對各銀行的警示帳戶我們做了非常嚴格的加強管控那很明顯的數位帳戶的這個警示帳戶比率是偏高的這件事情也是成為我們很重要的管控的點我們會持續要求這些經營數位銀行的要做好KYC一定要讓他這個警示帳戶的會不會去加入什麼發折啊什麼之類的"},{"start":5156.906,"end":5173.77,"text":"其實我們有我們現在就是透過雙指標的方式定期的去對他們加壓我想這部分這個警示帳戶特別在數位帳戶我們會來加強好時間到了最後一個小小的問題就是加密貨幣數位貨幣批賭批鄉民貸這個目前的管理態度是怎麼樣"},{"start":5177.651,"end":5204.637,"text":"就是我們現在有關這個虛擬資產的部分我們暗部就班我們今年還是一樣我們現在的虛擬資產管理專法的草案我們已經公告就已經預告6月30號以前我們送進行政院審議那至於說P2P的部分我們4月20號他們終於他們的工會成立了我們開始進入到下一階段去我就是要問你P2P因為你們昨天剛宣布說要讓他們成立工會他們已經成立 對所以基本上"},{"start":5211.86,"end":5221.944,"text":"這個東西本來就是一個行程中的行業就像我們對融資公司的管理也是一樣必須真的很精準的去管理而不是只是為了納管的納管我想這還是一個比較負責任的態度謝謝謝謝賴昭偉接著請郭國文委員質詢"},{"start":5237.878,"end":5240.293,"text":"主席有請彭主委好 請彭主委"},{"start":5244.011,"end":5271.483,"text":"委員好主委好那個保單可否強制執行嚴格來說在法界原來有不同的一些聲音有的是否定說有的是肯定說至少在105年的時候高等法院的這個法律座談來自於各級的法院的代表討論的時候還是相對是否定的可是到了這一個大法庭會議的時候裁定的就變成是肯定的"},{"start":5272.563,"end":5297.35,"text":"那主委,依照你是主委,你又是學者的一個角度來說的話你是比較贊同否定還是肯定?跟委員報告,假設我現在還是彭老師的話,我會持否定說你會支持否定對不對?對謝謝你,直接了當而說我個人老實講,我是否定派的啦我覺得基本上這個法官造法不是一件好事它自私一分而形成一種社會亂源"},{"start":5298.65,"end":5304.93,"text":"可是當你主委的時候你如果是否定的話你現在的修法態度你是採取一個順從的態度啊"},{"start":5306.238,"end":5329.708,"text":"不是 我現在的態度是需要因為畢竟是對一個主張你可以有自己一方之見但是我們現在是站在今晚會議的那裡我要解決這個問題對 你要解決問題你就是用順他的邏輯來想要解決這個問題嘛基本上也是順從他邏輯的方向在解決嘛難道沒有一個方式來推翻掉這一個大法官會議的這個裁定嗎"},{"start":5331.597,"end":5348.263,"text":"其實某種程度我們已經在修正這個內容就是我們已經在修正這個內容但就是說我剛才講說我現在是金管做我不是你是降低他把這個衝擊降低到最小你現在方式是修正的方式我們回到他的本質去就是說合以"},{"start":5349.503,"end":5366.45,"text":"對 你用本質意圖來做一些排除啦沒有錯 你要做一些排除我知道但是類似這種是對整個社會保險的一種衝擊欸制度的衝擊法官造法是對這個社會保險的衝擊做一個金管會的主委不是應該要捍衛這個保險制度才對嗎"},{"start":5367.831,"end":5396.12,"text":"他整個把他衝擊掉以後你在那邊修修補補他拿一個大卡車放在你的牆壯掉以後你在彩中重新砌牆不是嗎這個看法我跟委員有稍稍不同在學理上可以有非常明確的二分法否定說肯定說他的目的是要再把他對方的論述能夠講得更清楚一點但實際上你會發現說否定說他也不會去否定肯定說的一些主張肯定說也不會去否認否定說的一些主張"},{"start":5396.6,"end":5405.784,"text":"對啦 但是就比例上來說啦就否定說來說 還是相對比較合理性嘛我這裡頭有寫了 但是我們不是在爭論這個重點我們還是要爭論到回到現實的問題嘛在2023年的時候 總共高達123件那2024年的時候 每個月的事件多在成長2025年的部分呢 現在是5萬件在做成長"},{"start":5417.248,"end":5434.554,"text":"那就這些來說的話大法庭會議裡頭雖然說要讓相關當事人有陳述的機會相關當事人分散在全國各地可是你所有的案件都集中在台北法院你覺得交通成本還有時間成本來說划得來嗎一來是這個徵徵會議陳情不多嘛對不對"},{"start":5438.735,"end":5443.958,"text":"那第二來 你有沒有真正統計過整個呢 123萬件當中真正有執行的9.1萬件佔了不過是7.4%而已到底這個9.1萬件強制執行的結果的保單價格多少你們有沒有做過統計"},{"start":5454.932,"end":5477.359,"text":"我們有請工會去了解這個的比率啊詳細的金額必須要看他逐漸去看因為他已經進入到司法程序沒有我說9.1萬件已經執行完成嘛對你至少從這樣子往前推嘛也就是這個標的當中的執行講白一點就是法院在幫人家要債嘛要債的這個是否符合這個成本嘛對不對"},{"start":5478.539,"end":5502.012,"text":"我覺得這個是很重要的 否則你做了一個裁決不符社會成本 動用那麼多人 你去看喔整個台北地院一個執行官 夯不啷噹手頭都有兩三千件根本負荷不了 其實你剛剛回答其他委員說你可能會減掉七成好了減到七成 剩下三成也很多耶"},{"start":5503.188,"end":5525.149,"text":"不是嗎 是即便你修法之後你減掉七成還是很多欸而且你修這個執法法院幫人要債好到誰好到這個銀行 金融機構 保險公司還有什麼最為社會詬病的三大融資公司啊九成都是法人欸10%才是自然人而已欸"},{"start":5527.154,"end":5547.22,"text":"這還什麼公平正義可言嗎 主委拿國家的機器在幫這些法人在社會上既得利益者來要債而且大部分都是你們當初在通過這些保險項目的這些被保險需要被保險他需要收益的時候他權益就被拿掉了"},{"start":5548.796,"end":5561.721,"text":"幫到什麼程度 主委一般而言啦債權人還不能去這個公會上網查詢相關資料結果他可以申請 叫法院幫他申請資料法院服務做到這種程度 對不對"},{"start":5566.185,"end":5586.424,"text":"我剛才說過這次的修法不是由金管會主動要來修法是因為我們被動因為這已經衍生了社會的問題所以我才想說我們也很希望趕快來解決這個問題而且是能夠從根本的本質上剛剛想說雖然說沒有錯大部分都是法人機構去執行但是剛剛也有"},{"start":5587.225,"end":5607.076,"text":"大概10%也是很有可能是一些對那他的架構是說可能長期在這個保單當中嘛所以我剛剛問你說到底他真的殘值有多少嘛這個才能建構起來他的正當性嘛跟他的利潤基礎嘛然後你現在呢弄一個版本說多久一張保單當中呢7萬多塊啦免強制執行的保單大概7萬多塊"},{"start":5611.238,"end":5631.999,"text":"大概約莫是台北市這個三個月的最多生活保障嘛對不對老實講我老實說我認為是偏低啦至少要變成是double變六個月啦我只是跟你交換心得啦那另外一個部分呢有關於這一個呢介乎於社會保險跟商業保險之間的這一種小額中老保險喔"},{"start":5633.5,"end":5650.909,"text":"這種社會保險性質算蠻高當初政府算是鼓勵的喔這中和保險的這個金額大概是10到90萬之間喔類似這種應該折衷不管幾張保單喔只要是50萬以下應該免執行啦包括這些都應該思考一下主委你認為是不是比較合理一些是"},{"start":5651.449,"end":5671.328,"text":"跟委員報告一下,就剛才委員提到的兩點第一個就是額度的部分,我剛才在一開始報告的時候已經講很明確這點的話我們是持開放態度社會有共識,我覺得委員有共識,我們都尊重再來剛才講,假設認為有其他的因為我們在修法,我們要以本於一個橫平的角度我們把它提出一般化的這個內容,比如說我們針對"},{"start":5672.209,"end":5691.706,"text":"一定金額以下的人壽保險跟年金保險不得做強制執行但是比如說還有其他社會的考慮我們也尊重只是說我們剛才對小額綜合保險不要用一個商品名稱來定義它因為這個不具有那個持續性我剛才講因為小額綜合保險不是一個我們保險法上面的這個"},{"start":5694.228,"end":5714.344,"text":"週延的名詞它是一種商品的名稱它其實本質跟假設有人買了一個叫做終身壽險跟一個定期壽險其實本質上沒有太大的差別它就是一個終身壽險重點是本質啊對它就是一個終身壽險一個商業的終身壽險只是它的保費相對比較便宜核保比較寬鬆一點是"},{"start":5716.526,"end":5724.153,"text":"對 然後接下來主委這些反正我們後續還會再討論那最近金管會面臨一些棲產地的問題就是台資"},{"start":5726.96,"end":5756.105,"text":"他假冒外資來割韭菜他怎麼割呢就是呢他在海外有一些維京群島啦開曼群島啦等等啦來設定了不同的一個帳戶然後進行這一個進入台灣內部來進行炒股票跟洗錢的一個資金跟本土的券商跟外資的券商來做結合互相買賣拉抬甚至跟國內的一些不肖的頭顧分析勾結然後呢出貨然後來割韭菜那個主委你有沒有看到這個消息啊"},{"start":5758.138,"end":5781.538,"text":"這個部分的話 我想因為我們可不可以調查局報告喔隔日當沖大戶來自海外喔有沒有去了解這個訊息有沒有去調查委員我可不可以請那個旗局局長來跟您說明一下來 旗局局長來 局長請張局長委員 這個目前來講我們等於當沖的交易是降低了現在只有32的百分比"},{"start":5785.106,"end":5813.395,"text":"我們現在市場當中就要已經降了這樣我實在聽不太清楚口罩遮了很遠然後距離也很近沒有 主委我關心這件事情就是不要讓這種外資炒股的狀況來發生然後這種假外資資本屬性要去確認今天如果是台資假外資這是一種狀況今天港資是一種狀況今天中資又是另一種狀況不同的資本屬性所造成的資本市場的困擾有造成不一樣的後遺症"},{"start":5814.235,"end":5834.04,"text":"所以主委以前的外資很容易設定這些斷點那你要如何去突破不然的話遲早都會出現這些大問題這我們現在也關注到這個問題因為我們大概也會朝這個方向針對比如說未來他們申請的時候資訊的提供這些東西我們都要來強化還有就是說這些內容"},{"start":5835.941,"end":5857.002,"text":"剛剛講說因為我們會面臨到新的狀況我們就要有新的做法這我非常同意委員的這些建議這外面在查詢的過程當中我知道你過去其實也蠻困難的但蠻困難的情況底下還是有其他的可能性嘛去尋找一些合作對象簽訂MOU或什麼方式可能主委你在這個部分如果你後續還有一些餘力跟時間的話我覺得應該做這些鋪陳是"},{"start":5859.264,"end":5873.648,"text":"可以嗎可以我想這部分也是一個對那個最終受益人資本的管理我想這些都是對應該要啦這個雖然是中長期還是值得做啦否則的話衝擊太大啦謝謝主委謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝國文接著請李燕秀委員質詢謝謝教委我可以請主委請主委"},{"start":5889.502,"end":5904.993,"text":"委員好謝謝主委因為上一次的公聽會您沒有來是副主委在現場我仍舊對於我們這一次金管會提出的修正廠案我要表達一個支持但是我有一個失望修法增訂介入權在123條之2當中我們很完整的我們讓符合一定條件的債務人的親屬在債務人清償債務之後可以承接原來有的保險契約"},{"start":5917.722,"end":5933.49,"text":"我們這樣的做法事實上也是兼顧了債務人跟債權人的權益就是他清償完之後他親屬是還可以承接原來有的保險契約但是對於豁免執行的規定我在上一次的公聽會表達說跟很多學者專家的主張是一樣的我認為我們的修法仍舊有許多違德不足"},{"start":5940.393,"end":5958.79,"text":"甚至在修法的過程當中因為我們現在也有強制執行法是不是有疊床架屋的狀況我覺得我上次已經表達過我覺得修法應該是我們越晚修法應該是思考得越純熟如果還有地方要再"},{"start":5959.871,"end":5980.436,"text":"沒有再把它補上去我會覺得非常的可惜畢竟一個法要完整的時候經過這麼多次的公聽會然後這麼多的討論你們才有辦法通過行政運營會才有辦法送進來所以我待會提到的我一個失望的部分我還是希望主委可以後續如果在法的部分我們可以加強我們再來去做後續的處理喔"},{"start":5980.836,"end":5997.916,"text":"那我們回顧這次修法的背景在最高法院在111年12月做出裁定的時候允許保單可以抵債務之後這類強制執行造成法院很多書記官的負荷因為很多人保單非常非常的多他必須要一張一張去做確認"},{"start":5998.697,"end":6017.849,"text":"然後今晚會為了保障強制執行的債務人得以維持基本的保險的保障同時也期待提供法院第一線強制執行人可以有一個執法的標準才會提出這一次的修法那我就要請問主委你對於這一次的修法你覺得能夠達到"},{"start":6019.11,"end":6030.049,"text":"原來的預期的信心嗎就是說我們原來這一次修法的目標你覺得通過我們公聽會到目前你看到你的版本還有這麼多委員的建議你覺得有辦法達到您的目標嗎我想"},{"start":6033.31,"end":6050.204,"text":"這個修法如果能通過一定能夠產生非常顯著的效果但是是否能夠完全解決問題那當然不太可能那麼多的樣態但是我們可以看到如果真的比如說我們講最簡單先把健康傷害把它排除我想就大部分的 健康跟傷害險"},{"start":6052.546,"end":6066.023,"text":"把它排除再來就是我們訂了一個合理的門檻值維持了基本的保障以後又可以大量排除一些現在在進行中的這些的保單那我想再來因為有了這個"},{"start":6067.947,"end":6093.605,"text":"那個法案以後大家知道未來某些保險的話它很有可能會成為這個未來強制執行的時候呢它某程度也會減少未來的可能的程度我想這個都是我們修法積極但是修法確實是剛剛有委員說你是贊成反對其實應該講比較精準應該是有條件如果個人是有條件的否定說確實我們有些情況完全支持肯定跟否定也不夠實際"},{"start":6096.067,"end":6110.975,"text":"那我的意思是說 確實有些狀況 比如剛剛有提到有人主張 比如說中老百姓他有他的社會政策性有人又主張一些比較特殊的狀況 比如說弱勢的這些狀況這個都可以透過未來在我們在修法的調整過程當中尋求共識"},{"start":6112.356,"end":6139.682,"text":"主委這個就是我要強調未來在修法我們已經在修法我們為什麼不可以一次到位這是我談到就是說不符合豁免標準的其他各項保險契約的解約的債權現在強制執行法相關規定予以執行那我們修法的用意到底是什麼修法其實不能只是自掃門前雪我們希望把不好把強制執行法沒有考量到的或者是我們怎麼樣把這兩個法我覺得"},{"start":6142.583,"end":6155.738,"text":"我們思考的更完整或不足的地方我們兩邊把它彙整一次到位無論是保險法豁免的執行還有包括目前的強制執行規定其實有不同的地方"},{"start":6159.381,"end":6177.359,"text":"還有一點沒有考量的就是說在強制執行法裡面其實有考量到共同的生活親屬譬如說撫養的親屬 父母還有未成年子女我們一併其實要放在豁免的對象裡面我們的保險草案裡面就沒有這件事情就沒有考量到"},{"start":6178.921,"end":6194.753,"text":"這個是我在基層有時候沒有我知道就是說這個委員上次溝通的時候也有提到這個概念就是說其實我們現在是做一個特別的立法從保險的角度來看主委對不起你的聲音可不可以麥克風拉近一點對不起不好意思我把聲音開大一點"},{"start":6196.587,"end":6225.112,"text":"我想說我剛才提過了就是說實際上有關這個需不要考量像比如強制執行考慮到共同生活的家屬這部分一開始的時候我們是有這樣想的不過我們剛才講過保單畢竟不是一個我們一般的財產而且隨著我們年紀變大其實我們應該買很多很多的保單再來就是說這個保單還要考慮到每一張的保單還要總和還要考慮到多少的這個親屬會增加非常高的成本"},{"start":6226.372,"end":6247.641,"text":"可是主委強制執行法他們就有在做這件事情那個是他們在做的所以剛委員也提到說我們有沒有疊床架我們希望我們保險有些家庭他一輩子他可能就只有能力買一張這樣子的保單他只有能力買這樣你剛提到我們可能有很多的保單那或許是你所認識或您個人"},{"start":6249.542,"end":6267.034,"text":"有這麼多的保單但是很多人一家一家這一輩子他就只有買了一張這樣子的保單如果我們有考量得更完整的話那就可以馬上照顧他未成年的子女或他真的有什麼狀況他還可以就說我父母至少每個月還有一個我撫養的父母還有一個"},{"start":6267.674,"end":6289.508,"text":"最基本的生活依賴對 像比如說我們這次的修法我們也仔細思考過這個問題我們也打破了過去說總和的概念我知道這個是我覺得我支持的地方對 我們就各保單再來就是說如果每一個都要考量你這個共同生活其實這樣這又是一種判準的社會成本所以我們把那個額度呢用這個方式來解決這個問題其實這樣我覺得這是我們從保險的特別的考量我們也沒有跟隨我們強制執行的概念在進行主委"},{"start":6295.071,"end":6317.657,"text":"主委我還是要強調就是說我覺得我支持的是額度的豁免的計算我覺得這是一個進步的修法但我仍舊有一個失望因為我聽到的就是在豁免對象的部分你只有債務本人沒有考量他需要父母的上上下下 這可以在額度上面做一些調整會更容易達到這個效果而且可以更簡正便民"},{"start":6319.223,"end":6339.506,"text":"這個未來看看你們後面再怎麼去做後續的處理我覺得這一點沒有做到我覺得是可惜就是我認為為德不足的地方所以我覺得在這一塊當中如果我們修法我們沒有辦法去紓解執行法院的壓力也不能照顧到弱勢的債務人家庭那我覺得"},{"start":6340.226,"end":6359.97,"text":"這個修法我覺得就不夠完整我會覺得非常的可惜因為我時間剩下不多我要問另外一個TISA的部分個人儲蓄帳戶的部分也是一直一路以來我非常關心的個人儲蓄帳戶的部分有租稅的優惠上次我跟您提過您提到說會在今年上路什麼時候要上路"},{"start":6360.51,"end":6379.489,"text":"有關那個我們分兩階段第一階段就是說我們請吉保還有各個這個我們的經過讓利的部分我們已經規劃完畢六月會六月要上路那您覺得上路之後有沒有足夠的誘因讓所有還沒加入的民眾有足夠的誘因可以加入當然誘因每個人的看法不一樣"},{"start":6380.289,"end":6400.988,"text":"因為我目前看到的誘因你在第二階段只有要在第二階段才會爭取財政部的租稅優惠從目前我聽到或從媒體上看到你們就是把目前有的優惠就是加在一起這是第一階段第一階段嘛那如果第一階段你預估第一階段應該目前應該可以達到什麼樣的成效"},{"start":6401.889,"end":6423.352,"text":"你每一個政策出來我們就要有一個評估值你會達到什麼樣的成效如果家人不夠多或規模不夠大那我覺得這個TISA就沒有達到你預期的政策的效果嘛所以我才會提的我一直問你說誘因在哪裡你沒有足夠的誘因你第一階段達不到我們就根本不用去討論到第二階段啦"},{"start":6425.525,"end":6441.693,"text":"這個跟委員報告就是第一階段是我們能做的我們就已經趕快盡快來做第二階段我想這個難度我想這個委員也非常清楚我想就是主要租稅的優惠要有社會共識所以這部分我們在持續努力中"},{"start":6442.593,"end":6465.701,"text":"社會共識本來就是公部門要持續去溝通 要有足夠的誘因那這可能不是你一個單位 不是金管會可以包括財政部來配合財政部也非常非常密切的溝通你跟他溝通 那他有答應你說要後面的租稅優惠要達到這個是賴政府 卓院長的重要目標 在財務會重要的目標政策"},{"start":6466.161,"end":6483.823,"text":"租稅的專業在他們但是我們政策的部分呢我們還在真的要在比這做周詳的溝通那我想說一有結果我們會兩方會跟大家做報告主委那我還是要問就是說你的你未來第一階段用戶數跟資金規模的指標你的最低你會不會設最低門檻"},{"start":6485.484,"end":6513.146,"text":"那你預估6月份要上線那你有沒有思考到多少人或多少金額你要達到預期目標是什麼對你的同仁應該有一個要求吧這我們最近因為我們制度剛建制完畢還有就等於說它裡面的一些的內容物還要請我們再跟業者來協商這協商完畢我們就會訂出這樣的一個預期目標這樣子 主委我支持TESA我覺得這個是對國家來說是很重要對一個人"},{"start":6514.267,"end":6542.326,"text":"打拼了一輩子然後有一個長期穩定的儲蓄章很重要所以我一直在提誘因我希望你這個政策可以成功它是要怕部會的結合所以我認真認為我希望看到一個完整的報告你第一階段應該有多少資金規模你預估有多少人我後面才能再追說人不夠是因為你誘因不足那你財政部就要多支持租稅優惠我就幫你要求財政部支持所以我希望看到一個完整的報告好不好可以可以謝謝沒問題謝謝委員"},{"start":6544.547,"end":6565.991,"text":"好 謝謝委員 謝謝主委接下來請賴委員會議員質詢謝謝主席謝謝主席 有請金管會主委還有銀行局 佟局長還有我們司法院那個毛法官好 請彭主委 佟局長還有毛法官"},{"start":6568.118,"end":6591.102,"text":"我首先先請教我們的銀行局局長最近就是說在這個以你的工作經驗裡頭自然人的憑證最直接最方便的一個方式你自己親身感受到了是什麼是一個自然人憑證是最好用的"},{"start":6591.602,"end":6607.273,"text":"是跟委員報告在數位存款方面它有分三類的存款那自然人憑證它是第一類存款理論上它的安全性是最高的它安全性是最高的好局長你把它用你自己本身使用過自然人憑證嗎你有沒有自然人憑證"},{"start":6608.354,"end":6632.26,"text":"有那你最常用在哪裡報稅報稅是最好用的好現在你們把就是我們的八大公股行庫把這個治安人憑證就是陸續我們把它暫停了因為為什麼你們認為治安人憑證他可能成為詐騙集團的一個工具他會成為一個警示的一個賬戶"},{"start":6633.92,"end":6654.992,"text":"那如果我們用這樣治標不治本的方式這樣去圍堵這個把它暫停自然人憑證的話這個方式好嗎我請那個主委來回答這個問題到底我們金管會對於自然人憑證把它暫停了這一個測試到底是好還是不好"},{"start":6655.888,"end":6679.062,"text":"當然就是因為這是遇到問題解決問題的一種方法但是就是說我們現階段先尊重各個金融機構他們對風險的判斷但是比如說我們常講說我們在金融監理上我們常鼓勵我們金融機構不可以做完全去風險化的業務這會影響到很多的正常的營運活動比如說"},{"start":6680.319,"end":6694.575,"text":"我不讓高速公路車子上去自然不會有車禍但是它也喪失了運輸的功能反而你要好好去想一件事情就是說自然平正在執行的過程當中有什麼東西我沒辦法管控的這些人我才把它做一個阻擋"},{"start":6695.416,"end":6722.268,"text":"那當然現在他們可能還沒有找到原因我想這部分確實也看到一些問題但是我們會針對這個問題請他們好好去思考一下怎麼樣能夠橫平有沒有有一個就是說你看你五月份你陸續你還有八大公股行庫還要再加進來了要把它停止了好這個要停止多久那你們就是有設定一個期限如果就是說在這個半年的期限還是三個月的期限裡頭"},{"start":6723.248,"end":6738.182,"text":"其實它已經是就是這一個警示的帳號它這個狀況變少了我們要把它恢復了有沒有這樣子的一個就是準備跟情況是 那個同局長有一個他的實務的作法跟我們報告是 跟我們報告"},{"start":6738.883,"end":6761.118,"text":"那這個部分剛才如同我跟委員報告第一類的帳戶用自然人憑證這個是最安全的那銀行現在遇到的情境是詐團騙民眾把自然人憑證交付給他那現在的一個問題點是在於說我們在進行第一類帳戶的時候並沒有採視訊所以現在八大行戶我們大概初步跟他溝通未來可以補強比方說透過視訊的方式"},{"start":6763.439,"end":6766.606,"text":"增強他們的風險控管能力之後呢事實上這個陸陸續續就會解開來補上視訊的一個查證"},{"start":6771.304,"end":6790.849,"text":"因為過去那個自然憑證在使用上他的安全性理論上適同本人那因為現在等於是詐團把這個自然憑證都騙到手了那現在未來可能就是導向就是說如果是不是才開用這個自然憑證再加上視訊確認是本人的這種方式你用視訊來查證的時候這個多久來執行呢"},{"start":6794.59,"end":6807.815,"text":"這個部分因為會涉及到銀行系統整合的問題所以我們會再跟相關的銀行來討論總是有一個議題的時間 盡快的時間大概多久因為這個已經造成大家很多的一個不方便"},{"start":6809.395,"end":6829.28,"text":"大概應該有個期限 半年啊 半年有沒有機會好 我們往這個目標來走 那也跟委員報告 因為第三類障礙事件那個主委 我想就是說在上個月那個行政院已經通過了那個金管會的這個保險法的一個修正草案那在我也那個召開了那個公聽會"},{"start":6830.64,"end":6849.151,"text":"那相信應該是會經過了社會大眾普遍的一個討論那也達成一個初步的共識那今天保險法這個草案的一個審查其實詳細的來看的話我想今晚會已經做了很多那個周全的一個這個準備了"},{"start":6851.332,"end":6867.14,"text":"這個優關人民的權利的保險法的一個修正其實我們都知道就是說對社會大眾影響局劇非常的大那陳如賴司保委員剛才特別的就是說針對的就是說這一個現有的現有的超過這個100萬件的這個案件在這個現階段裡頭"},{"start":6873.826,"end":6899.011,"text":"我剛才司法委員一直在追問你說到底有多久的時間多久的時間可以來完成就是處理全部的這個案件那你一直在講的就是說你這個半年修法通過了沒有問題可是後面是司法司法的一個那個就是這個程序的一個問題那好那我請教一下那個司法院那個那個"},{"start":6901.591,"end":6917.41,"text":"馬法官那如果我們修法通過了以後你們這邊有多久可以來解決這些剩下來的一個案件如果修法通過了你剩下來的案件就不多啦他可能剩下兩三成那這兩三成你需要多久的時間啊"},{"start":6920.763,"end":6937.421,"text":"委員長 主席早這邊想要向委員報告的是說我們這次的修法雖然有排除掉部分的這個保險金額及種類但是在這個執行端他收到案件的時候他是還是會收到案件在強生執行時務的時候案件是"},{"start":6938.837,"end":6941.118,"text":"你這個行政程序都跑了一輪了以後你覺得你需要多久的時間可以把後續的這些案子處理掉"},{"start":6959.225,"end":6974.521,"text":"因為在查詢之後我們才有辦法知道說有些案件有些保險類型是沒有辦法執行的也就是說我們可能要實際上在修法後來觀察說在保險執行的速度上所以你們大概有一個預計的時間嘛因為你們會抓一個模擬的一個流程嘛"},{"start":6974.821,"end":7002.754,"text":"就是新的案子再進來然後再經過你們的審查那這樣子大概需要多少的時間因為你知道這一次的修法其實我們就是要解決很多的一個社會問題因為這個存了一百多萬件的這個案子在這個地方如果我們今天修法沒有辦法給社會大眾一個比較明確的一個交代的話那這個好像是所有我們的努力就缺了那麼一腳了"},{"start":7003.533,"end":7030.215,"text":"是這邊向委員報告在這次保險法修法之後我們預估案件的處理流程速度會變快但是因為實際上到底有多少的這個可以被免除執行的案件的這個比例所以有沒有辦法半年內就是說就是回到那個司法的這個那個體系裡頭我們有在大概可以就是掌握一個六個月八個月把你們後續的這些行政程序就是把它處理完是"},{"start":7030.936,"end":7036.908,"text":"我們這方面我們可能還要再回去做評估那你之前都沒有評估 沒有評估還來"},{"start":7039.58,"end":7063.615,"text":"我們有評估我們的人力那你都知道我們在修法修法大家下了那麼多的一個努力了好 謝謝馬法官把這個問題帶回去這個真的快速的來評估那好 主委還是要跟你再探討就是說我們從保化中心的一個統計就是國人在人壽保險跟年金保險裡頭通常我們大概都是每一個人身上都會有2.3"},{"start":7066.877,"end":7091.346,"text":"2.63張的一個人壽險那這次修正有關強制執行的部分其實還是要回來跟那個主委做一個探討就是說那我們還是覺得就是這個投保利如果就是到這個人壽險的投保利在這張圖裡頭他有特別那個就是跟大家做一個那個介紹那如果"},{"start":7092.026,"end":7113.595,"text":"那個強制保單的一個額度那跟最低生活的一個限度其實就是要跟主委探討的就是說還是很多委員跟你探討就是說如果用每一個地區每一個人最低的一個生活會的1.2倍來計算這個三個月的金額那這個對其他除了台北市以外的這個"},{"start":7115.095,"end":7142.922,"text":"保險人是那個不公平的就顯然他有很明顯的一個城鄉的一個差距不知道主委怎麼看這個議題呢是 這個也是我在接觸這個修法的時候才知道我們現在強制執行就是按照這個標準來做所以當時我們只是在直接嫁接這個強制執行的概念當我們經過這一輪的公聽以後還有各個委員的指證以後呢"},{"start":7143.522,"end":7168.324,"text":"就剛剛委員也提到公聽會後我們回去也做很多的檢討很多的這些討論比如說針對這個額度我們基於簡正辨明剛剛也提到剛剛委員也有講到就是說我們怎麼樣能夠簡化這個認定的標準上次也有人提說是不是就以台北市或是最高的作為一個標準我想這個可以來做一個解決大家各個委員提案的一些的問題我想這是一個可以思考的方向"},{"start":7169.024,"end":7187.301,"text":"那你想想看嘛 這個城鄉的差距就在這個地方如果我以這一張圖來看的話 我們台南才55.854那台北市竟然是73,365那這個台南人一定是不服氣啦因為保單 這個保惠都是一樣的啊 怎麼會是"},{"start":7188.402,"end":7202.073,"text":"我想那個當時強制執行法應該也是有他自己的考量才訂出這個啦齁那只是說我們保險法現在單獨立法齁我們也不希望說這樣增加整個很高的社會成本所以我覺得這部分我們剛才提到說我們對這個也是"},{"start":7204.415,"end":7230.826,"text":"開放我們也尊重我們的審查的程度但是所以我請教你去年的這個草案的一個草案的一個豁免額度是多少為什麼跟這一次我因為你又做了修正嘛去年去年是做了十萬塊的那個是不是十萬塊這個數據去年預告的時候呢他是用各種不同的標準去列示他用列舉的比如說有些用嫌種別是有些用幾戶別那有些用比如說他的年金的幾戶的樣態還用"},{"start":7233.167,"end":7253.807,"text":"比如說財產保險把它排除這個就等於說在實務執行上未來可能會更為複雜因為我們現在實務上的商品不是用我們法律名詞在做歸類比如就像各位常常會看到你很多的商品叫年年如意什麼終身受險或是什麼保險它很難去歸類在我們的法律條文上所以認定上就會產生很大的困擾"},{"start":7254.508,"end":7265.298,"text":"所以我們才會把它重新把它整理用一個最基本的概念來做所以剛才我們標準的部分大家集中在標準我覺得標準可以大家來尋求個共識啦"},{"start":7266.089,"end":7293.692,"text":"好我想這個主委政策是不換管而換不均所以就是說我們都會聽到了很多很多的一個聲音那在最後又請金管會讓民眾去了解就是說這個解約金額度這個很明確是就是一個很明確的一個額度那讓金管會就是堅持這個對台南人不利的這一個豁免標準可以把它就是取消掉拉平謝謝"},{"start":7294.893,"end":7304.463,"text":"這個最後我絕對沒有針對國人任何地區有什麼不公平對待的想法我們希望解決問題 謝謝謝謝主委 謝謝主席好 謝謝賴昭偉 謝謝彭主委接著請鍾嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":7331.537,"end":7346.91,"text":"主席 在場的委員 先進列協政務機關司長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請我們彭主委還有司法院的馬法官和法務部的謝副司長好 請彭主委還有那個司法院馬法官還有法務部的謝副司長好 法務部那個謝副司長請"},{"start":7359.177,"end":7376.065,"text":"主委好 法官好 副市長好來 我的標題單一標準免足案判斷省案量回歸屬性而非保單名稱來認定好 先就交到主委來 主委那個昨天在院會的時候我跟你請教就是說未來啊我們在"},{"start":7377.639,"end":7392.348,"text":"因為在談虛幣在交易所的時候我們談到詐欺有提到境內跟境外境外實名制的部分我有跟你提到說如果能夠及時發出扣押的裁定那麼跟你請教說有沒有境外的虛幣家有願意配合"},{"start":7392.788,"end":7409.182,"text":"那您說只要有助於打詐的您都支持都會去爭取但是現在的問題昨天也跟你問過也請兩位這個法務部跟司法院代表說但是司法機關能夠及時開出扣押的裁定嗎那請兩位法官跟副長您聽好下一頁就過去我們的實務上當我們阻斷詐騙是以"},{"start":7413.482,"end":7442.628,"text":"再圖的金流來追錢為優先法官跟副長了解今天一個犯罪一個實體犯罪偷竊搶奪基本上我們一定有個犯罪有個罪犯有個被害人被害人他因為有財產損失是因為這個犯罪行為我們抓到這個犯人之後把他身上的錢拿出來看看是不是他的犯罪所得然後再發一個財定扣押是不是這樣子法官是不是這樣毛法官"},{"start":7443.876,"end":7447.526,"text":"不好意思 因為我是民視廳的副市長好 那個副市長 法治司副市長"},{"start":7450.265,"end":7475.984,"text":"報告委員 就是在各式各樣的財產犯罪 或者是非財產犯罪我們大概就是會查出金流之後向法院申請扣押裁定除非是屬於無令狀可以扣押的狀況好 那現在有個問題啦就是說我們現在如果有人宣稱被詐欺那確定他被詐欺了 但是呢還沒有找到犯罪人對不對 但是我們可以找到他被詐欺的錢在哪裡譬如他可能虛幣 這時候你們會讓法院會裁定扣押嗎"},{"start":7478.275,"end":7502.264,"text":"會主張就是沒有就算還沒找到被害人只要能證明他疑似是犯罪所的事實上是可以申請扣押的所以說我們司法機關未來追遣為優先確認詐款的路徑之後就可以向境外願意合作的實名制虛幣交易所來核發這樣的一個扣押裁定是不是這樣報告委員這個可能涉及裁定如何執行的問題是的 那主委請"},{"start":7504.81,"end":7528.273,"text":"所以今天因為我們不是一個本題所以今天法務部跟司法院來的不是這個本題的一個對象所以我昨天在請教說是不是我們儘管會為了虛弊交易所未來可能會成為一個詐欺者常用的一個途徑那這樣的一個阻斷金流的過程需要司法院介入是不是可以協調我們法務部跟司法院來完成這樣的一個樣態能夠執行"},{"start":7529.734,"end":7538.674,"text":"這當然在我們的打炸團隊裡面這個大家都一起的啦如果未來有這個需要我們會透過那個平台提出要求不過剛剛委員提到這個可能"},{"start":7539.946,"end":7559.154,"text":"有幾個點可能我們回去也在思考過第一個我們在虛擬幣的世界裡面其實國界沒那麼明確就是在網路世界裡面但是他假設有一個比如說這個具體的法人是受我們的管轄或願意合作的那當然就變成具體了"},{"start":7560.895,"end":7575.74,"text":"還要裁定要扣押啊對 所以說就是一定要我們配合假如這還跨境的法人的部分那就真的要透過國際的合作啦是但是我們本國的司法體系要能夠及時的發出這個扣押裁定嘛這個就是要看我們司法司法部跟法務部跟司法院對 就是我們對於剛才"},{"start":7576.98,"end":7591.39,"text":"就跟昨天那個答覆委員就說凡是有助於主詐的措施我們都要來想辦法來我第一是說請金管會行政院法務部司法院要共同來努力不能只有靠我們行政機關謝謝好我們回到本題"},{"start":7592.17,"end":7612.261,"text":"那麼這個是來自於2022年因為最高法院的108的897號的民事裁定大法庭必要時終止呢債務人為藥保人的人壽保險契約是這樣的意思來我們看看辛苦的過程首先呢是在去年4月的時候那時候我來台政委員會的質詢就提出來了"},{"start":7612.941,"end":7624.4,"text":"然後呢我們在4月29號聯合財委會的跨黨派委員就提出了一個記者會很快的本席就在5月10號提出了保險法的修法草案然後呢我們司法院"},{"start":7625.134,"end":7646.077,"text":"我當時在市委會當召委我也排了一個專題報告也在6月17號安排去台北地院考察而且呢在6月28號呢其實司法院的記者會就宣布了一個新的指引到後來到去年的10月15號在屏東開地方說明會到了今年的3月13號很快的行政院就有一個院版送來要審議而我們的召委也趕快排了一個公聽會"},{"start":7648.257,"end":7670.342,"text":"主委謝謝我們這一次的動作很快一年的時間我們已經進入到修法了首先給您一個肯定再往下看那麼可是原因回過當初啦當初最大的一個爆發出來的冰山這一角是來自什麼來自全國各地的民事執行處受理債權人申請執行標的涉及到債務人對第三人質保險契約的金錢債權很長有多少件"},{"start":7674.228,"end":7698.722,"text":"總件數是七十七萬多件其中四分之三是法人只有四分之一是治安人的金錢債權而這四分之三的法人當中呢銀行占一半三分之二三分之一是資產管理公司就是俗稱的什麼討債公司結果在那個時候法院就什麼淪為了討債公司幫忙去催債這當中合法的換價命令約四萬多件"},{"start":7699.582,"end":7727.786,"text":"這就是法院的負擔我們往下看接下來我們的副司長跟法官就看到了在我們過去一年每個法官所做出的平均的裁定公佈呢二一年是六十件二二年是一百一十件最高峰就是在前年就是大法庭的裁定出來的時候一百三十四件現在慢慢下降如果單以二零二四年比較集中在台北地院是不是這樣子我們從民事庭的法官毛法官是不是這樣子這是你們的痛嘛對不對"},{"start":7729.251,"end":7732.521,"text":"對 沒錯 目前台北地院仍然是執行狀況最嚴重的地方"},{"start":7733.465,"end":7761.493,"text":"這就是我去年6月17號的時候呢我們司法法治委員會去考察台北地院的情況連同仁們都貼海報抗議啊是的他們受不了嘛 是不是是的好 那請問這個情況紓解了沒有是報告委員感謝委員在這個去年6月的時候前往台北地院去了解實際上的狀況那在這個去年6月之後那司法院這邊就這個台北地院的這個狀況以及應該說全國法院也都有類似的狀況好 那有一個方法嘛就是這一頁嘛對"},{"start":7762.293,"end":7789.163,"text":"本來我們強制執行的根據應由債務人之居住所的地方法院為之那我們就可以把這個案件分給債務人所在而不是以保險公司的台北地院跟士林地院嘛是不是這樣對沒錯我們透過這個去年6月17號發布的這個執行原則然後來擴大解釋這個應由這個謝謝來我們請彭主委所以呢我們怎麼樣去減量是我們保險法修法當中考慮一個程序的一個程序經濟啦"},{"start":7789.983,"end":7808.597,"text":"那我們來看到現在的認定其實幾位前面的委員都說到了最低生活費的標準要以哪一個有人主張我也是支持以全國最高的那一個為主為什麼這樣子才不會讓債權人跟債務人為了尋求自己的最佳利益而去主張說要再依哪一個當地法院是不是這樣所以呢"},{"start":7809.358,"end":7836.018,"text":"主委是不是你也接受我們統一標準就能減省我們法院的認定程序我剛剛也要答覆委員我們是尊重我們也是開放態度我覺得這是一個蠻好的解決方法好謝謝你認為蠻好的我們往這方面努力往下看所以呢其實呢保單解約金有類似的情況我們發現呢我們在修法過程當中呢院版的部分是傾向說以分別計算單筆解約金而不是以合併所有的解約金來加總請問一下我們"},{"start":7838.462,"end":7865.495,"text":"副市長跟毛法官 毛法官您認為這樣有沒有足以我們法院在認定上的裁定對於這個行政院版的這個分別計算個別解約金有助於這個執行的便利性這樣子好 謝謝 來我們彭主委所以說今天我們要說的修法的時候不是要考量到法的原理屬性要考量到未來執行上的程序經濟是的好 我們來往下看其實呢最大的問題我們過去感受到民眾的痛是什麼就是殺雞取卵"},{"start":7866.195,"end":7879.485,"text":"我債務人欠的錢跟我相對的保單損失利益是不成比例所以我們才主張什麼 往下看還有什麼原因主張介入權嘛 我要講的就是另外呢 我們的狀況是什麼很多的債務人員高齡了"},{"start":7881.055,"end":7902.548,"text":"早年時的投保的保單如果一旦解約他失去了保障他沒有辦法再拿回來另外一個情況是這就是傷害險跟健康險另外一個就是說他早年幫他的子女藥保人幫他子女受益人請求的保險權益怎麼樣能夠讓受益人可以繼續強弱保障這是我們的目的所以我們這時候怎麼去進行設計"},{"start":7904.429,"end":7918.742,"text":"所以說當時我們其實當時引入介入權的概念就是其實我們保險法裡面當時就有一個條文就是利害關稅人得代繳保費的精神很類似他的意思是說如果說這個利害關稅人主張契約應該繼續的話你可以來"},{"start":7921.364,"end":7950.569,"text":"執行一些動作讓這個契約進行包括這個像介入權那假設我是受益人我覺得這張保安都有重大利益我當然可以代償這以後呢我取代他成為我的遙保人終止他的債權債務關係不會再被那個債務人所追償被那個債權人所追償是的那我們來看一下保險法你說第12條是這樣子那為什麼現在院門的第1、2、3條之二主張的比保險法的還要再多一些些就是依此而推演的介入權人多了什麼"},{"start":7951.923,"end":7975.966,"text":"多了兄弟姐妹是這樣嗎多了我們保險法第16條以外家屬以外的親屬家屬以外的親屬因為我們保險法對於有保險利益是以家屬為基礎不以親屬所以也就是說家屬是情共同生活同居同寸多了不是家屬的親屬是多了兄弟姐妹不以共同居住為限那思考是什麼 為什麼"},{"start":7976.887,"end":8003.961,"text":"但是因為這個能夠擴大能夠來終止債權債務關係幫他清償維繫保險價值的範圍跟他加大當然有人擔心道德風險的問題就是我們前面又加了一個要經過腰背保險人的同意尊重道保險法我想這就可以解決這個問題擴大範圍後續有一個程序上的問題請你們修法後續思考一下不只一個人要行使的時候誰先協和"},{"start":8005.021,"end":8026.327,"text":"就是介入選的時候這個目前法條上我們沒有辦法去定義後續在我們的實務上的時候後續的配套所以這個配套呢要跟著我們保險法修訂一起加進來好不好所以我們在實務作業上的時候我們會請我們保險局在這邊會訂定一些規範來做好那最後一題呢就是大家問到的"},{"start":8027.347,"end":8053.62,"text":"就是有些委員會版本有寫的小額中老保險因為我的標題是說什麼希望回歸保險的屬性而不是保險商品的名稱那麼請問一下目前小額中老保險它包含了哪些不同性質的保險屬性它其實小額中老保險就是一個限定額度的終身受險限定額度的終身受險它是生存險還是死亡險它是以死亡險為主可是有的有住獸金"},{"start":8056.769,"end":8074.13,"text":"應該小兒中老保險應該是沒有他是一個純粹的終身險他有完全失能幾戶就等同經濟死亡的部分那到底小兒中老保險適不適合在我們依照我們保險法的精神中排除作為我們健全債務的強制執行的對象"},{"start":8075.391,"end":8097.399,"text":"這個我們也是在剛剛的報告我們經過公聽會以後呢我們覺得說假設大家社會有共識認為這是一個需要被排除的我們也尊重不過我們建議不要用商品的名稱做排除是的所以我希望未來啊在你們的持續我們的修法過程當中不是以商品名稱來定義而是以保險的本質屬性來判斷是的這樣才有那個超過性"},{"start":8097.659,"end":8115.909,"text":"我希望說主委多多強調你的生存險死亡險到底是屬於殘險性質的損害填補還是屬於具有財富移轉的儲蓄投資效果這個部分清楚的將保單的本質做判斷因為要法庭來做這樣判斷超過不是他們的專業上所應為所以未來"},{"start":8117.91,"end":8128.221,"text":"我們這個金管會對於哪些保單可以免除強制執行的對象這個部分的說明是不是在我們的立法說明當中有更詳細明確的補充"},{"start":8129.948,"end":8154.84,"text":"對 這個沒問題 其實後來未來執行的時候各位可以看到 其實我們很重要的環節是授權工會授權工會這邊做一個認定 其實我們在那邊可以做很清楚的認定那因為法院來查詢的時候 會透過他們好 所以 麻煩知道了未來你們在判斷的時候 你們不用自己判斷你們只要函詢授權工會 或者我們金管或保險局就可以得到認定了那麼大家也不用想辦法去什麼因為我很擔心什麼我們本來是要保障"},{"start":8156.331,"end":8182.228,"text":"要保人的債務人但是怕的是一些想要避債的存心有這樣的前置動機的人去買什麼買保險公司的逃債商品現在很多保險公司都要去設出這個保單以後就不會被列入強制執行不可以這樣子我們希望今晚會趕快公佈也嚴格審查不得讓我們保險公司以可以避債保單的方式來做設計跟宣傳可以嗎"},{"start":8182.788,"end":8208.119,"text":"這我們在內控內基制度上面我們會來做一個涉控好 謝謝主委 謝謝副市長 謝謝毛法官好 謝謝接著請顏寬恒委員質詢顏委員質詢結束以後我們休息十分鐘好主席各位立席官員大家早主席有請金管會彭主委請彭主委"},{"start":8213.24,"end":8234.633,"text":"委員好主委早請教主委有關於這個保單結約金的強制執行門檻規定單一授權保單結約金未超過債務人所在地區每月最低生活費1.2倍乘以3個月的標準時該保單才不得被扣押或強制執行"},{"start":8235.313,"end":8263.54,"text":"那以台中市為例最低生活費乘以1.2倍乘以3個月的金額大概是57877元那最高的台北市大概是73364元那其實這引發很多問題啦因為全國標準不一那這個受險或者是年金險的這個保費費率不會因為地區不同而有所差異那付的是一樣的錢那住在農村的人跟住在台北市"},{"start":8265.061,"end":8282.103,"text":"購買同一個同一張保單付的這個保費費率都一樣那為什麼住在鄉下非六都的人保單反而容易觸碰到被扣押的紅線容易被解約那這個不合理這就不合理了那保單"},{"start":8283.567,"end":8303.575,"text":"住偏鄉的人他收入可能會比較低可能會比較低那如今又要被用相同相對嚴格的標準來對待那不就等於說被扒了兩次皮所以我認為說如果要做盡可能的做到一致性 全國一致那這樣才能夠避免不同縣市的民眾面對不公平的一個處境"},{"start":8304.995,"end":8325.802,"text":"那主委有沒有考慮再做修正例如說有其他委員的版本所提到的最低工資或者是直接以台北市作為這個標準以台北市的標準作為門檻做到全國統一是 謝謝委員的關心我想這個議題委員講的這個很多人都關心這個議題那我們在公聽的時候我們也注意到其實我們當初"},{"start":8326.662,"end":8344.401,"text":"訂立這個本意我再一次強調我們並沒有要針對不同地區的國人有不一樣待遇的這樣的一個想法我們只是當時原來尊重強制執行法上面本來就採用這樣的標準但是我們既然單獨立法剛剛也提到了委員剛剛提到也有人提出兩個非常好的想法"},{"start":8344.941,"end":8359.876,"text":"一個就是我們能不能就以這個相同的標準就以台北市或是最高的那個作為一個統一的標準這樣就不會有剛才委員所顧慮的點了這一點我們是剛才有幾位委員要表達說我們覺得這個也是個好的方法我們可以來思考這個回去跟委員跟鄉親解釋其實沒有這個意思謝謝"},{"start":8366.002,"end":8390.976,"text":"那以債務人所在地區這樣1.2倍乘以3個月的標準確實是太低啦那尤其是高齡債務人這次修法當中被關注的一個弱勢這個群體那他們的經濟來源都是依賴退休金社會保障或保險金等所以被強制扣押就會使得他們在生活面會面臨到很大的壓力尤其是高齡者"},{"start":8391.616,"end":8411.907,"text":"那他們的身體無法像年輕人一樣積極的參與工作所以保險金就是成為他們維持基本生活的主要依賴那如果強制執行門檻過低沒有做一致性的我們剛剛提到的說如果以台北市為最高標準的這個部分來做一個思考那這樣子的話"},{"start":8413.107,"end":8432.918,"text":"這些高齡債務人可能就無法滿足他們日常生活所需那如果修法後這個保單解約金的強制提醒門檻還是那麼低他要面對的雙重壓力除了說一方面要面對償還債務的壓力困境另外一方面又要又失去了生活的保障所以對於年紀"},{"start":8433.678,"end":8460.229,"text":"大或者健康不佳的人來說這相對是非常危險的情況所以我們在立法的同時也要考量到弱勢群體他們的處境所以有關於標準的部分再請主委就我們剛剛您也提到了說以單一縣市台北市為例來做一個這樣子的一個一個更具體的一個思考來做這樣的決定那我們也在這個"},{"start":8461.289,"end":8476.805,"text":"司法院的報告書裡面也有看到他們也有指出說倘若執行之解約金債權金額僅為每人每月最低生活費1.2倍計算乘以三個月恐難以充分保障受益人之基本生活"},{"start":8477.265,"end":8493.079,"text":"所以他們也建請說就豁免執行門檻之計算月數再行斟酌提高所以我們用各個這些相關大家提出來這些意見來做一個對於人民弱勢群體更具保障的這樣的一個立法的一個目的"},{"start":8494.42,"end":8508.951,"text":"那我想金管會在這邊既然有願意來做調整那我們也很期待那要兼顧到所有群體的需求尤其是高齡者低收入還有這個長期病患這些弱勢的群體因為"},{"start":8510.552,"end":8531.945,"text":"他們在生活當中本來就是處於困境之中如果面對保單強制執行的問題造成生活品質的下降這些部分會更讓他們感到困難也許會產生其他的危險性那我再請教一下就是我們小兒中老這個部分剛剛我提到其他委員都有提到"},{"start":8532.785,"end":8556.36,"text":"那小兒中老部分能不能強制執行的問題這好像金管會跟司法院還有法務部這邊都有不同的看法那去年金管會保險局已經建議司法院的執行原則法務部在去年都已經發給各分署執行裡面規定說小兒中老保險豁免強制執行"},{"start":8559.022,"end":8579.805,"text":"但是今天我們的這個保險法修正草案卻允許小兒中老可以被強制執行所以其實你們自己建議法務部要豁免但是結果這個保險法的修法沒有納入豁免這個讓大家有看沒有懂所以說去年你們是建議要這樣子那今年你們又沒有把它納入豁免所以"},{"start":8580.746,"end":8599.702,"text":"我是建議主委啦這樣子政策不同調會讓民眾搞不清楚除了看不懂之外會覺得政府又在亂搞所以我想說在這邊要請主委說是不是再一次的跟司法院跟法務部討論小中老保險強制執行要不要豁免這個部分可以嗎"},{"start":8601.023,"end":8617.103,"text":"根文報告其實沒有說我們的政策不一的問題因為主要是我們去年訂那個指引就是我們在預告的時候有很多人提出非常多的質疑因為我們整個立法過程當中我們要查納雅言就是說他認為說這樣的方式"},{"start":8619.4,"end":8635.296,"text":"不夠這個周延而且很多的定義不清楚所以我們才提了這個版本這是一個法制的程序我們也會來加強說明剛剛委員提到我非常的贊成就是說實際上我在前面幾個委員質詢有兩點跟委員報告第一個"},{"start":8637.698,"end":8663.806,"text":"額度的部分我覺得我們尊重我們整個我們大院審查的結果這我們剛提過大家有不同的考量在對小中老保險的部分我們剛行政版本是個原則性的排除如果針對特別的部分的話我們也是尊重只是說不要用商品名稱因為小中老保險不是一個法律週延的名詞是個商品的名稱用這個方式剛剛前面委員有提"},{"start":8664.426,"end":8677.96,"text":"提出過我想這邊都可以在未來在條文討論的時候呢我們都持開放的態度金管會強調的是維護債權人的權益沒有是平衡要橫平那司法院他關注的是弱勢這個群體的保障"},{"start":8682.402,"end":8699.339,"text":"司法院他規定說小兒中老保險豁免這個強制執行是因為小兒中老保險是因為我們我國人口我國人口這個高齡化的趨勢那普及高齡者基本保險保障而推動的這個保險商品"},{"start":8700.02,"end":8726.215,"text":"那所以因此明定小額中的保險商品不得強制執行那你剛剛提到當然你就說你要平衡你要保障這些東西所以我希望就是說你們要好好討論溝通不要這樣子不同調不要讓民眾看不懂你們到底要做什麼去年建議豁免那今年又把又把它剔除在豁免的這個範圍之內所以我想希望你們這邊能夠跟司法院法務部充分溝通達成共識"},{"start":8726.995,"end":8733.483,"text":"這沒問題我們已經有在溝通這個問題我想說這個各方有各方的不同意見我們都來尊重大家來考慮謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝那我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8773.256,"end":8774.359,"text":"謝謝收看,下次見"},{"start":8783.319,"end":8787.941,"text":"這是人肉聯繫的對,對,對以後再看什麼聯繫他不會出現什麼聯繫他不會出現什麼聯繫"},{"start":8831.753,"end":8835.455,"text":"謝謝收看,下次見!"},{"start":8857.879,"end":8858.559,"text":"這裏是大廈的大廈"},{"start":8899.346,"end":8899.666,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8926.406,"end":8928.006,"text":"還有搞不好的東西"},{"start":8961.749,"end":8963.109,"text":"謝謝收看,下次見!"},{"start":8996.778,"end":9012.584,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的食物"},{"start":9023.392,"end":9027.456,"text":"這裏面是一間餐廳餐廳"},{"start":9053.376,"end":9054.236,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9082.04,"end":9082.32,"text":"哎呀"},{"start":9111.881,"end":9112.224,"text":"好,可以了"},{"start":9122.462,"end":9122.842,"text":"這裏有個大廈,有個大廈"},{"start":9159.787,"end":9189.787,"text":"鞍馬"},{"start":9194.916,"end":9195.516,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":9222.892,"end":9222.952,"text":"這裏有個大廈"},{"start":9254.497,"end":9254.737,"text":"這裏有個大廈"},{"start":9294.394,"end":9320.936,"text":"這裏的店是在澳門城市的那裏那裏的店是在澳門城市的那裏"},{"start":9325.23,"end":9353.835,"text":"這裏有個大廈"},{"start":9397.25,"end":9397.27,"text":"謝謝觀看"},{"start":9450.235,"end":9468.599,"text":"謝謝收看,下次見"},{"start":9486.425,"end":9486.445,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":9519.735,"end":9545.896,"text":"來來來來來"},{"start":9560.275,"end":9560.295,"text":"香蕉"},{"start":9627.41,"end":9634.316,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9662.91,"end":9663.29,"text":"鸡蛋"},{"start":9697.551,"end":9702.734,"text":"蜂蜜蜜"},{"start":9782.602,"end":9782.866,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":9831.132,"end":9831.752,"text":"這裏有個大廈,有個大廈"},{"start":9835.067,"end":9838.188,"text":"小蝶"},{"start":9855.814,"end":9871.364,"text":"沙漠中央市場"},{"start":9883.899,"end":9884.039,"text":"這裏有個大廈"},{"start":9923.046,"end":9942.3,"text":"好謝謝那接著請羅明財委員發言主席各位出列席官員大家好主席可不可以請彭主委請彭主委"},{"start":9946.873,"end":9967.724,"text":"你想想所有的銀行、證券、保險事實上最重要的是安定要穩定那自從美國川普上任100天以來可以說是世界上史料上從來未見的上沖下洗"},{"start":9968.717,"end":9990.396,"text":"那對於未來目前大概他是講說未來的90天的關稅的問題不曉得主委面對台灣整個股市最近的發展有沒有信心那兩萬點到底站得住站不住因為大家都在看日均量"},{"start":9991.84,"end":10001.934,"text":"最近有一些萎縮的情況兩千多億三千億跟過去以往五千億五千多億"},{"start":10003.166,"end":10025.323,"text":"已經越走越遠了這個也是不是代表一個整個股市熊市的來臨我想委員這樣講我有些是認同有些沒那麼認同第一個就是我們確實從4月2號開始其實我們除了有兩天因為那個量超過6000億接下來大概就維持在2000再3000億左右"},{"start":10029.426,"end":10049.642,"text":"那確實比去年的我們的日均量比如說是有比較低我想這也是反映了市場對未來不確定性的一些的一致性的看法雖然剛剛委員提到就是說我們現在台股現在這兩天重新回到了所謂的兩萬點的這樣一個心理的一個關卡不過"},{"start":10050.563,"end":10065.575,"text":"我們站在一個資本市場的主管機關的角度我們還是一樣我們在在乎的是市場機制能不能充分的發揮能不能是一個沒有能夠去除一些非理性的行為這部分我們是在對這個看法"},{"start":10066.415,"end":10094.35,"text":"當然我們也看到就是台灣的產業在過去一年包括這個最近揭露這一季的報告我想大家都看到了其實我覺得台灣有很強的基本面的支撐所以剛剛那個委員說對未來台灣資本市場我們還是深具信心所以不論是滿漢全席甚至什麼排骨麵、炸醬麵金管會所維持永遠就是基本面"},{"start":10097.982,"end":10111.633,"text":"不過基本面的確是很重要所以主委對於台灣所有1850家上市公司的基本面是有信心的我們從我們最近揭露的一個財報數字這一季"},{"start":10113.795,"end":10139.184,"text":"所有的營收跟獲利都創下非常好的成績剛才委員講說基本面我覺得如果說講個開玩笑基本面是外面資本因為所有的消息面最後還是會回歸到基本面沒有基本面的支撐其實我覺得資本市場是沒有基礎所以我覺得這還是非常重要既然基本面是如此的重要"},{"start":10139.784,"end":10157.27,"text":"那本席有提了一個就是保險法第146條知事的修正條文那很可惜就這一次在整個修法當中好像沒有列入進去那事實上如果這個有關所有保險業的資金"},{"start":10159.586,"end":10171.5,"text":"當初我就未雨綢繆希望說台灣受險也好 產險也好投資海外的部分應該要多多來關心關愛台灣的"},{"start":10174.113,"end":10202.759,"text":"企業的發展特別是剛剛主委的一席話更印證了很多的上市公司保險公司不見得要投資海外最近整個受險公司的淨值嚴重的下滑大概慘跌超過2200億以上看到現在整個大環境的變化保險業大概面臨了一個三大危機"},{"start":10204.295,"end":10223.676,"text":"第一個 美國股市下跌第二 美國公債嚴重發生變化第三個 台幣的匯率不斷的升值那面對這樣的情況現在在下個月 就是五月"},{"start":10224.229,"end":10247.041,"text":"那請問五月整個授權的它的淨值比會不會嚴重再往下掉我想這個淨值比啊它是根基於我們的IFRS財報的數字財報它的基本原則就是充分的反映當下所有的資訊來得快去得也快所以各位看到第一季"},{"start":10248.061,"end":10266.314,"text":"它會比較大的下滑剛好去年的基期是最高的那當然這個因為我們的淨值的波動直接反映了這個這些數字其實從長遠的角度來看不見得代表就是一個就是一個趨勢的確定我想這是也要再三的說明不過"},{"start":10267.074,"end":10285.322,"text":"任何一個的巨大的波動都是一個很重要關注的點所以剛剛也有委員關心過我們有沒有針對這些東西做一些推演那當然是我們日常經營的一部分剛剛委員用三大危機來形容我會覺得比較好是三大挑戰因為其實壽險業擁有這麼大的龐大資產"},{"start":10288.883,"end":10305.122,"text":"然後有這麼多的海外的投資那當然是他過去的很多歷史因素的造成那當然他就會受到股價匯率跟利率的影響這個影響是中性的有時候好有時候不好比如說也許我們的匯率台幣漲"},{"start":10306.443,"end":10332.302,"text":"對我們的那個那個債務工具評價會下跌但是呢帶動的利率下跌他的評價又會上升相對的未來我們接軌以後負債也會隨著利率而同步的波動實際上這很多的是很複雜我們隨時來關注這件事情所以請教一下現在國內所有的產險、售險總市值大概是多少"},{"start":10332.822,"end":10352.254,"text":"市值我沒有這個數字因為我們其實現在大部分都沒有上市櫃過去大概5兆多現在已經成長到大概37兆左右因為我們現在大部分的保險公司很多是在金控下面它不上市了所以沒有我們只有少數公司單獨是在上市所以市值比較可能沒辦法看出他們真正的價值我們看到最近這個剛剛有說三大挑戰的"},{"start":10354.377,"end":10356.399,"text":"現在我們就是過去我們有一家正在做這個增資改善計畫中哪一家"},{"start":10372.698,"end":10389.976,"text":"我們就不要在這邊單獨講一下另外低於300以下還有哪幾家300的數字因為這是動態的啦我待會請同仁稍微提供一下我再跟委員報告即便是動態啦那我們就是從3月底好了"},{"start":10390.736,"end":10403.124,"text":"這個資料都有不過我們法定的這些的減核點是6月30號那一點跟12月31號那一天那其他他們算的只是他們內部參考用的所以每個月變動的情況你們數字上應該都有所以這些稅險公司面臨了很多爭執的壓力"},{"start":10410.329,"end":10436.016,"text":"大概今年預估會有幾家壽險公司需要增值現在我們如果從我們最新一季的資本市足率來看的話現在沒有立即上面這些的問題啦但是呢國際的金融情況隨時在變化假如持續下去的話我們保險法的增值不是說一碰到那個比如說不到200或不到3%就要增值不是這樣因為那個是波動很大我們會連續觀察兩期還有就是它"},{"start":10438.157,"end":10467.06,"text":"我們分成四級來管理比如資本不足 嚴重不足 顯著不足所以最近會不會有發生接管的問題那當然這個是 我覺得現階段沒有沒有這樣的考慮啦保險安定基金現在有多少如果上次我沒記錯大概大概現在四百三十幾億四百多億的話夠不夠那個沒關係因為我們所有的這個未來他都有一些的籌資就是說安定基金他會"},{"start":10468.352,"end":10488.403,"text":"這個逐步在累積依保險法的規定它未來可以有譬如說可以借款可以做其他的方式來籌資倒不是說一定要用這個錢做一個基礎啦是 我們看到整個壽險公司海外的投資比越來越高現在投資海外大概有多少的金額現在大概是60%左右總資產裡面大概60%"},{"start":10494.12,"end":10515.787,"text":"這個比例是相當高的而且售潛公司大概很多都是大多數壓在美國公債或者是美國的一些其他公司債大概壓在美國公債的部分統計大概有多少其實售潛公司買美國公債不多大概佔5700"},{"start":10518.348,"end":10544.626,"text":"五十幾億左右對但整個它將近美國投資將近比如說將近接近九兆多其實不算高那個比例它們主要受險公司它投資比較多的是在公司債這些比較評級比較高的公司債金管會會不會要求他們為了風險的考量美元可能會繼續貶啊而且不是貶而已啊是大貶啊我們看到"},{"start":10546.436,"end":10568.374,"text":"台幣對美元的匯率最近台幣不斷的升值因為美國給全世界每個國家都很大的壓力所以面對這個情況經營管會會不會道德勸說要求他們在投資美國公債或是美國公司債方面要審慎的考量"},{"start":10569.054,"end":10595.897,"text":"當然我們對於國外投資啊他們大概都有一定的這個這個方法跟管控的工具剛剛我們報告為什麼他們要買這些投資平級的公司債而且長期我有看過那數據大部分的比重是分配在20年左右的常債身上他們買這個比例不是為了交易他是為了要持續的獲得報酬跟他的負債做對應就是利息啦"},{"start":10596.617,"end":10622.566,"text":"所以說這些短期的波動對他實質的經營跟流動性而言是沒有太顯著影響只是說會計的評價部分會比較大的波動主委可是川普他說建議說100年那個利息就先免掉啊這我們的評估應該是針對政府跟政府之間啦對民間的部分第一個大概大陸嘛那還有日本嘛台灣外匯存底也非常多啊"},{"start":10623.547,"end":10637.226,"text":"我們買了92%的公債但是那是政府的部分我們剛才提到我們的授請公司是這些民間公司購買美國公債的部分其實比例相對是比較低的啦那還是希望"},{"start":10638.393,"end":10665.954,"text":"主委這邊可以多多勸說台灣的基本面那麼好的話可不可以讓這些受險公司的資金趕快回流台灣做公共建設也好做長照也好這是我們努力的方向就是我們在跟國發會推動那個兆元投資我們希望說我們各個部會能夠多多提供很好的投資標的讓我們台灣所收到的保費能夠投資在台灣這是我們努力的方向這半年來有回來的嗎"},{"start":10668.088,"end":10692.268,"text":"就是我們對新錢的部分我們鼓勵他留在台灣每年的話會增加差不多大概是1.5到2.5兆之間的新錢今年有投資台灣嗎我們鼓勵他們這樣做還是要有標的才是最重要的加強力度那今天的部分討論的我還希望說站在民眾深斗小民的立場多多為他們的權益來著想我們當然謝謝"},{"start":10693.869,"end":10697.313,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝明財接著請李坤城委員質詢謝謝 謝謝主席那我們請這個金管會的彭主委是 請主委"},{"start":10717.534,"end":10732.584,"text":"今天討論保險法的修法,大家的焦點就放在保單豁免的額度是多少不得作為抵押、扣押或強制執行的標的我自己也有提案"},{"start":10739.653,"end":10758.601,"text":"保單的豁免額度啦那你們是提到說衛生福利部啊 直轄市政府啊公告當地區每人最低每月最低的生活費的這個1.2倍的三個月計算啦那其實之前大家都討論過這樣就變成說每個地方會不一樣所以本期才會提案說那是不是就是用"},{"start":10759.221,"end":10785.417,"text":"台北市因為台北市是最高嘛台北市的最低的生活費7.3萬來做一個標準那不曉得這個主委看法怎麼樣謝謝委員我想說我們行政版本提出來以後經過大院公聽會還有收集各方的意見確實我們從減政變民降低社會成本的角度來看又能只要能夠達成我們的立法的目的我們對剛剛那個提案我們是覺得是個不錯的想法啦我們可以可以朝這個方向來思考這樣好啊"},{"start":10785.757,"end":10808.822,"text":"那我是希望說 就是說我們用一個單一的標準 朝這個原則來進行 好不好那當然我看司法院 他們也有提出他們的看法就是說他們認為說 如果說現在是用每人每月最低生活費1.2倍計算的三個月 恐難以充分保障受益人的基本生活那請問一下主委的看法"},{"start":10809.783,"end":10827.421,"text":"這個主要是當時我們會有這樣的想法我們是基於就是說我們要橫憑考量債權債務人的這樣的權益再來就是說我們對這個計算的方式我們是參考司法院的這樣的標準否則我們不會用這麼長的文字去描述這個事情司法院他認為說1.2倍的三個月他認為不夠"},{"start":10830.484,"end":10853.564,"text":"那我們剛才在那個報告我們經過這一輪公聽溝通的過程當中我們也認為說我們對這個是持開放的態度所以也不是侷限在就是說是1.2倍的三個月嘛所以是可以調整的嘛對對對就是說大家只要委員會大家有共識我們都尊重那另外就是說這個本席也有提到就是說"},{"start":10855.244,"end":10872.89,"text":"我想對於健康險跟傷害險,大概都沒有意見我有加入小兒中老的保險,把它加進去我發現,司法院沒有提出的意見跟我們的看法是差不多的"},{"start":10874.15,"end":10899.298,"text":"考量小兒中島保險是因應我國人口高齡化的趨勢為普及高齡者身故或失能之基本保險保障而推動的保險商品所以他認為應該把它拿進去然後我再舉司法院的民事庭他們的意見他說去年司法院在執行受險執行原則的時候有找金款為一起討論"},{"start":10899.958,"end":10922.364,"text":"那時候是有把小兒中老保險納進去的所以去年的7月1號他們這個執行原則是有把小兒中老保險執行進去那如果說你現在這個草案又沒有把它執行進去的話那對於他們來講會變成一些爭議就是說現在債求人就是說現在沒有滿足他們的需求他再度去申請"},{"start":10923.784,"end":10944.547,"text":"又有這個爭議然後呢法務部有認為說這個執行的原則呢規定小兒中老保險的豁免執行然後呢他們也按照這個原則去做所以呢如果沒有把這個小兒中老保險把他納進去的話呢他也會面臨到跟司法院相同的這個問題啦所以我請教一下這一個主委的看法"},{"start":10945.507,"end":10959.972,"text":"謝謝委員的關心其實這個議題剛剛從早上到現在非常多委員有蠻一致的關切其實我們提這個版本出來的時候我們主要是希望回歸到一個保險法裡面的精神因為我們保險法對"},{"start":10961.092,"end":10976.205,"text":"人身保險商品就四大類的分類其實沒有一個叫做小和中老保險它就是一個終身受險啊對對對就是說它就是一個其實它就會被我們涵蓋不是說那個名稱啊對對對就是說後來我們也講說現在如果說大家社會有共識的話我覺得"},{"start":10976.946,"end":11005.005,"text":"列上去我們是持一個開放單但不要用這個小額綜合保險的名稱那可以啊就是說我們不一定要用這個名稱嘛就是說它在類似這種終身授權的那邊你去計算一下好不好不是那個名稱要回到保險法上條文週延正確的名稱那也可以啊那因為就是說提到說我剛提到說因為去年其實你們有把這一個這個小額綜合保險我現在先用這個名詞把它納進去然後在今年草原就沒有那考量是什麼"},{"start":11005.325,"end":11034.751,"text":"沒有 其實應該主要是說我們你看我們那個原則其實某種程度的話就已經包含它了它本身也是一個人壽保險的一部分只要是它的解約金沒有達到大部分我們也看小額綜合保險齁大部分假設你是一個比較是如果你不是高齡投保的話其實這樣假設額度把它拉到一定程度你某種程度也是含瓜我們只是說不要針對一個特殊的險種做這樣額外的規定但是假設大家覺得小額綜合保險有它政策上的推動我們也是可以可以來討論但是不要用"},{"start":11035.171,"end":11057.449,"text":"我再強調不要用一個我知道就是不要用這個詞啦回到他的精神因為其實我們還有很多跟他非常非常相同的這些的這個人壽保險契約一樣有這個社會保障功能有沒有這樣就能夠被涵蓋到我覺得這樣也是一個比較周延的想法不錯我看金管會這個態度算都是還蠻開放的我們是要解決問題不是要"},{"start":11059.671,"end":11088.04,"text":"因為我們覺得還是要考量大多數的人的權益還要橫平一下債權債務人的關係好 那再請教一下主委這個報紙最近這兩天有提到說這個備想科技它是說它是全國唯一金管會授權的這是它自己的廣告後來我發現它其實沒有講金管會我有上它網站去看它是講監理會全台唯一授權它也不敢講金管會它是講監理會全台唯一授權那請教一下"},{"start":11088.88,"end":11110.566,"text":"其實這個必享科技當初也有提出這個洗錢防治法的聲明最低度的聲明那你們現在不是又要求說這有21家本來有提出聲明的這些要去做洗錢防治的登記嗎這21家都有去登記嗎有些沒有"},{"start":11115.547,"end":11141.667,"text":"剛剛同學講有兩家沒有來登記有兩家21家有去做這個洗錢防治法的法尊的說明應該是第一階段有26家後來有幾家沒有就剩23家23家在這一波我們的最後期限3月31號以前沒有來做登記的那這個又扣掉兩家所以21家還有其他不是洗房生民來申請登記的那加起來應該有31家加起來有幾家"},{"start":11147.044,"end":11172.404,"text":"總共現在還有31家本來是21家有做這個保證說明的23 21有來繼續做登記然後10家是另外之前沒有來做這個保證說明的但是他們新加進去的但是並不代表他們都會通過因為我看你們這個登記的辦法你們是說9月底之前還要再完成洗錢的房子登記"},{"start":11173.344,"end":11190.164,"text":"因為我們是給這些比如說已經做完洗房聲明一個六個月的緩沖期就說如果你今天到比如說跟我們報告分兩種剛才後面加入十個他現在也不能做業務他等到我們同意他以後他才可以做業務因為他是以前沒有洗房聲明的"},{"start":11190.785,"end":11219.897,"text":"那啟發聲明他現在就在進行他的業務但是呢他如果還要想繼續做下去的話他必須要在3月30要提出而且在9月取得我們的登記許可才可以繼續如果沒有取得就直接出局所以現在是我現在聽是21家還是可以提供服務那另外那10家還要你們在還要在另外在這個在考核他是新來的要取得許可登記許可以後才可以執行業務好然後在9月底"},{"start":11220.757,"end":11246.861,"text":"你們會在最後做審查,9月底有通過才能做這個虛擬資產服務就對了對,就是剛才新來的要通過才能做那些已經有的呢,要再取得這個東西才可以繼續做否則你只能做到9月那像畢祥也有去登記啊,我看那個名單上面也有啊他來登記並不代表會同意啊對啊,我是說登記是你的權利啊核准是金管會的職責啊那你們也是看到媒體之後才知道這件事情嗎?"},{"start":11247.681,"end":11273.259,"text":"我們過去大概針對這幾家我們已經查過10家我們對很多疑慮我們大概都有去做一些查核當然這個當然是媒體揭露以後他主要開了一些分店那主要都是進行現金交易嘛這個部分未來我們也會針對這個虛擬資產的部分我們會改成無現金交易的方式來處理可以大幅降低這樣的問題你說改成怎樣無現金交易"},{"start":11273.999,"end":11278.164,"text":"跟委員報告,在112年跟113年完成的十佳,那那個114年的部分是在這個禮拜一有到閉峽那邊去做現場的去了解這樣子"},{"start":11294.656,"end":11309.619,"text":"那是媒體介入之後啊檢調都去查之後啊是 那在這個之前部分我們也是有跟檢警調單位部分有做一些的情資的交流所以我是說是在案發之前還是之後"},{"start":11310.06,"end":11325.434,"text":"是我們在案發之後在這個因為上個禮拜就有那個進行搜查嘛那所以我們禮拜一就派員到現場那所以你們也是案發之後才知道這件事情就對了是是是但是在之前的部分我們有做一些資訊的一些的交流好最後請教"},{"start":11326.455,"end":11353.932,"text":"這個主委虛擬資產服務法你們現在是這個在三月的時候有公布預告這個草案嘛大概何時會送來立法院我們現在是這樣我們大概預告兩個月嘛然後在中間大概開二十二還二十三場的說明跟溝通會我們回來以後會來整理我們的預計的時程是六月三十號以前送進行政院那行政院就會由政委來跨部會來審查那期間多久就不是我們金管會所能夠管控"},{"start":11354.392,"end":11379.803,"text":"那至少6月底要送到行政院就對了行政院要先做跨部會的審查完畢就會送到大院來審查那看起來應該下半年度有這個機會我覺得我們6月30號出去就看我們行政院審查的進度跟各界的共識的程度好 那我請教一下因為大家說這個其中有一個最大的亮點是允許銀行發行穩定幣那這個穩定幣是什麼"},{"start":11381.904,"end":11410.159,"text":"穩定幣的話就是我們想說我們大家過去對那個虛擬資產特別是比如說我們這個虛擬貨幣大家都覺得它的波動很大因為它的價值大家有不同的看法穩定幣就是我們可以想像成1比1的代幣就是比如說是以新台幣作為我們現在初步是以貨幣作為這個當然我們現在的講法當然是先以我們的法幣當然我們我們在草原裡面沒有排除哪一哪一種貨幣因為現在世界上共通最多的穩定幣應該是美元"},{"start":11410.939,"end":11432.306,"text":"但是呢 我們也可以透過這種各種的幣別當然我們現在的規劃只是先做貨幣 就法定貨幣作為那也有人說所以有可能是新台幣 但也有可能美元對 就看我們市場上面但是這個東西只要在國內發它就有保管資產會保管在國內這部分呢 實際上就是1比1這樣的概念1比1的概念那這個跟那個"},{"start":11433.926,"end":11448.142,"text":"中央銀行它有這個數位貨幣那個咧它那個CDBC它有兩個那是不一樣的東西是不一樣的東西那個四大類裡面的其中一類這樣他們是另外的那兩類那發行那個穩定幣的作用在於哪裡"},{"start":11449.703,"end":11470.427,"text":"我們想說我們剛才講一般民眾如果是你要投入這個穩定幣投入虛擬資產之前你不是會從我們的法幣帳戶換成一個穩定幣以後穩定幣才能夠跟其他的虛擬資產進行交換那等於說它是一個橋接的一個工具就像我們現在去購買虛擬資產我們先換成泰達幣"},{"start":11473.388,"end":11487.858,"text":"穩定幣美元的穩定幣以後才去開始去購買其他的產品所以說這個就是有確定要做就對了這個在我們草案裡面就看社會公司如果通過的話就會做OK好謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝坤臣接著請黃珊珊委員質詢謝謝主席我請彭主委請彭主委"},{"start":11505.578,"end":11529.933,"text":"委員好委員長我想今天大家都非常關心這個保險法的修法那當然剛剛聽到主委是說三個月的部分金管會不堅持是嗎我們持開放態度所以就是說我們還是希望達到一個平衡點這個法案我想在委員會也會很熱烈的討論那介入權的規範其實就是要讓可能受到權益受損的人能夠爭取自己的權益"},{"start":11531.69,"end":11549.816,"text":"本來他是完全被忽略的能夠保障這張保單位被保障特別受益人的權利沒錯被保險人受益人他都有基本的權利但是在這一波的所謂的強制執行上面完全被忽略甚至沒有權利去主張任何自己的權利好"},{"start":11550.436,"end":11578.533,"text":"現在借入權裡面包括這個強職我們發現最多的問題是通知不到或者是沒有通知或接下來可能保單都是很久很久以前買的其實在金融機構裡面最大的問題是找不到這個客戶或者客戶的資料早就已經搬家遷移然後甚至沒有辦法通到那法院大概能夠查的都叫做戶籍地址那戶籍地址寄過去沒有就叫做公示送達其實對很多人的權益還是會受影響"},{"start":11580.154,"end":11602.83,"text":"所以在金融機構目前為止金融機構如果變更地址都是要跟主動跟金融機構做變更嗎對 如果說你沒有去做通知變更就以原來留的地址對 它就可能會造成沒有辦法知道你的權利受到影響了好 所以現在的數位化其實早就應該這些東西因為像我的保單可能是我二十幾歲買的"},{"start":11603.951,"end":11625.062,"text":"那時候我可能住在不知道班的前面三個家了所以現在其實在92年行政院在中華郵政有設置了一個通訊地址的遷移通報服務也就是說只要民眾去中華郵政說我現在從通訊地址變更戶籍地址因為有總統的原因可能不能變比如說房子"},{"start":11626.603,"end":11642.573,"text":"稅金的問題比如說學區的問題他戶籍不能變可是他通訊地址已經變了所以他換了公司了他可能需要通訊地址變所以主委這個東西在我們現在的社會化政府社會化國家目前為止金融機構並沒有參與到中華郵政這個簽職服務"},{"start":11646.375,"end":11659.46,"text":"這我來瞭解一下不過就是剛剛委員就是我們現在保單的部分我們現在那個我們有做什麼叫保單存的我要說的是金融機構其實是可以運用這個服務但是目前沒有中華郵政只通報政府機關"},{"start":11660.816,"end":11680.242,"text":"我的意思是金管會包括金融機構包括各工會就是開放API讓他能夠查核這樣子的話對我們的保護的權益也比較完整第二個我們也可以鼓勵民眾去中華郵政登錄自己的通訊地址而不是要一個一個跑到各個不同的保險公司去登記"},{"start":11681.102,"end":11690.278,"text":"這我會請我們同仁來了解這是將來借入權或者他權益受損的情況下我覺得現在的數位化政府其實都可以提供這個服務"},{"start":11692.712,"end":11718.4,"text":"當然所有有利於民眾權益的提升我們都來努力因為到法院去他可以查到戶籍地址查不到戶籍地址以外的通訊地址但是中華郵政紀念有這個服務我覺得金管會有必要把這部分建立起來我們所有的保險契約特別是人身保險契約上面都有個條文約定雙方權利義務關係那個通訊地址的約定你覺得我還會記得我二十幾年前的地址現在的變化我要去通報誰"},{"start":11719.9,"end":11746.51,"text":"基本上我覺得這是一個便民服務而且金融機關應該可以去取得中華郵政相關的資訊這邊也稍微講一下我們可以去下載那個保單存摺我們可以完整的看到我們現在過去的狀況可是可以讓他更更完整第二個部分就是我們看到金融圈最近都在併購所以金管會目前台新 星光 新興併還有玉山金 保德信 永豐金 金城銀"},{"start":11747.29,"end":11772.439,"text":"好像破局的還有所謂的凱基跟安泰所以主委你對現在的金融併購你的態度是什麼我想我從去年到現在我們講法都沒有改變因為金融市場是一個高度監禮的市場所以他只要在監禮範圍之內我們都樂觀其成市場的秩序維護跟安定是非常重要的市場秩序在併購裡面最關鍵最關鍵的其實是勞工的權益"},{"start":11777.626,"end":11800.687,"text":"這個點在過去應該已經有一套的處理的模式沒有 還是一直出現狀況當然個別狀況有 但是我們覺得他們已經不斷的在好多了 但是我們可以再避免尤其是將來更多的精精藥病的話現在趙鋒金董事長 董事長那邊他說公股子公司也可以盡量開始整病 主委的態度呢"},{"start":11801.121,"end":11818.599,"text":"我想這是要尊重財政部的這個看法不過我們站在一個整併那我覺得只要他們能夠擴大忠孝是一個有共識因為我們的台灣銀行現在已經輸給很多民營銀行了我們的公股本來最大的公股銀行現在所有的"},{"start":11820.1,"end":11838.246,"text":"競爭力都不如民間的銀行這才是我們可能需要重新考慮的地方那我回過頭來講併購裡面其實最大的問題是我剛剛講的勞動權益包括這次出現狀況的最近有的新聞就是新展銀行又去告了他的員工那其實大部分員工是"},{"start":11838.946,"end":11857.807,"text":"花旗銀行併購過來的那花旗銀行跟欣展銀行在他們談判的過程中尤其是勞工安置的部分有一塊很明顯因為我開過協調會就是花旗銀行答應工會的條件因為欣展銀行沒有參與所以他們不認賬"},{"start":11859.246,"end":11873.739,"text":"等到所有的員工都已經進到欣展銀行有開放所謂的登記提前離職的預告但是只要你去登記了你那一年就拿不到年終獎金也就是說你那一整年的努力都是白費"},{"start":11874.76,"end":11902.306,"text":"雖然我們開放讓他能夠提前報告他要離職但是年終獎金的權益就這樣被犧牲新展銀行說我不知道啊我不知道你們曾經有過這樣的條件我只知道你們可以提前離職但是我沒有答應一定要給年終獎金這個到勞動部勞動部也認為不妥但是沒有人拿新展銀行有辦法主委我只希望有個要求在併購的過程裡面所有的安置計畫三方都要在場"},{"start":11903.426,"end":11925.369,"text":"不能推說自己沒參與就假裝不知道這跟委員說明一下其實我們在很多的地方都講過任何一個講過你訂出SOP吧你要求他們做到吧做不到的時候你有你的監管系統可以去做處理啊就是說我們在金融整併它攸關到各方的利害關係沒錯不是只有勞工勞工權益當然很重要它是其中之一"},{"start":11926.13,"end":11949.499,"text":"但是勞工權益在他答應之後或者是他推說他沒參與這件事情我覺得比較嚴重你只要說你沒參與你就可以什麼都不做那不是就是騙人嗎那這一點的話我們的不放在你們的併購合約裡不放在你們的promise裡面所以最後變成是勞工當成人大頭嗎現在我們的審核實務他必須要提供這樣的一個協議的"},{"start":11950.999,"end":11978.081,"text":"所以主委我說我只有一個要求嘛所有的安置計畫三方都要參與而且不能事後說因為我沒參與那是你們前手答應你的你去找他這件事情不應該在我們的金融合併裡面其實包括所有的企業併購都不應該發生這種事啦這個我們在做這個時候我們會但是因為你是高度監管所以你其實在精精病的時候其實你有這樣的權利要求他們至少三方參與應該不是難事"},{"start":11980.743,"end":12008.035,"text":"將來勞動部在處理的時候他也有個依據我們從過去這些時務我們都是希望金管會成為你的SOP在所有精精病裡面變成一個至少應該遵守的規範接下去還有一個小問題就是我們現在面對美國剛剛我聽到主委說我們的淨空令要持續下去那什麼時候解除不知道 限空令"},{"start":12009.325,"end":12026.924,"text":"要等90天嗎我想允許委員讓我們在整個管理市場上我們可以所以我們希望是因為限控令是穩定的訊號限控令還在的時候就是不穩定的訊號這會對國人心理上的影響比較大"},{"start":12027.685,"end":12054.74,"text":"那比較重要的就是在美國要跟我們談關稅帽壁壘的情況下其實在美國UST啊對於金融管制上面也有認為台灣有一些所謂的關稅壁壘障礙所以這些障礙裡面有一部分是說金管會沒有善盡良好的法制作業沒有給他們預告期間表示意見這我們做說明了其實這樣是一個誤會啦有好所以接下去很多的這些相關的"},{"start":12055.68,"end":12071.081,"text":"可能都必須要現在開始一個一個釐清你做了說明我們也希望說不要成為美國拿來對我們做金融監管的這些相關的談判籌碼不會 那些的誤會我們都跟我們的談判代表這邊做充分的說明"},{"start":12072.342,"end":12093.845,"text":"不會有這個問題所以接下去我覺得他們講這個有道理啦我們法規在做公告的時候其實並沒有提供雙語的服務所以他們在60天公告草案公告的期間並不知道台灣的法案的具體比較清楚的內容在我的印象裡面我們在內部開會只要有涉外的部分都會提供雙語的服務"},{"start":12095.026,"end":12122.884,"text":"是 所以我覺得不是只有社外啊他要來台灣投資他不會只有社外啊他還是要看到你內部的規範所以我覺得政府現在什麼時代了這個翻譯並不困難對 我們會朝這個方向來就是說如果我們要成為一個國際化的國家我們應該在我們草案預告的時候尤其是金融法規這些都是國際企業會來主導的來參與的那這個部分的雙語就不用再等了"},{"start":12123.912,"end":12153.018,"text":"該有的就要有啊而且在公告期間就要讓大家都知道甚至我覺得進步的政府直接發我們的草案去給所謂的美國商會讓他通報他所有的會員這個可能積極度會比單純的公告有涉外的裁翻譯要來得更好這是我們努力的方向不過剛剛委員提到像比如說美僑 歐僑商會我們都有每年登記兩次的固定的說明我理解但是委員說如果他們還有這樣的反應就表示還有缺漏嘛對 我們會來努力啦好 謝謝主委謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":12153.698,"end":12180.733,"text":"好 謝謝 接著請黃國昌委員質詢謝謝主席 麻煩有請主委是 主委主委好 詐騙洗錢已經成為所有台灣人的痛我們從去年開始在處理有關於打詐的事法"},{"start":12181.738,"end":12209.312,"text":"整個過程當中虛擬貨幣成為洗錢的工具早就不是新聞了這也是為什麼去年的時候我們不斷的要求行政機關對於虛擬貨幣要採行必要的高度管制否則的話這個狀況越來越多人受害結果沒想到"},{"start":12211.499,"end":12239.193,"text":"今年最新的狀況是必享科技跟詐團勾結洗錢每個月洗錢的金額上億元上億元發生了這個案子以後大家開始關心我們虛擬貨幣的管制到底做到什麼樣子的程度我們下去看"},{"start":12241.876,"end":12260.463,"text":"發現荒腔走板道說全台唯一授權通過金管會的洗錢防治聲明這不是笑話嗎這不是笑話嗎通過金管會的洗錢防治聲明然後呢然後呢"},{"start":12263.615,"end":12281.25,"text":"通過金管會的洗錢防治聲明代表什麼意義可不可以逐位跟社會大眾說明一下說這個聲明其實毫無意義啦他自我聲明啦自我表彰啦現實上面啦根本沒有辦法發揮任何管制的效果"},{"start":12283.568,"end":12309.815,"text":"這跟委員說明一下就是也趁這個機會謝謝委員提供這個對外說明的機會我想金管會過去在行政院的分工下面他就指定今晚會是做投資跟支付目的的虛擬資產的主政單位當然第一步先從洗錢房子的開始所以我們第一步是用由他們進行洗房聲明開始這只是說他們先停一下這就是我的問題"},{"start":12311.704,"end":12325.552,"text":"通過了這個洗錢防治聲明剛剛主委的意思是這是他們的自我聲明嗎不是 他願意做這件事情以後對啊但是我們現在已經進階到沒有沒有 主委不好意思喔什麼叫做他願意做這個聲明"},{"start":12327.663,"end":12349.52,"text":"我做這個聲明毫無代價毫無成本啊我出一張嘴啊我們在過去的時候我們對石家的這個東西進行檢查我們也採儲採伐其實我們也不是說完全只是聲明就沒有任何的作為來你告訴大家這個聲明有什麼具體的效果"},{"start":12350.865,"end":12374.857,"text":"這個我們可不可以請檢察局來跟委員報告一下好來 這個聲明到底有什麼具體的效果現在大家看到業者跟詐騙集團勾結的業者拿著有通過你們的聲明來這邊欺騙消費大眾創造自己是一個合法的業者我是一個合法的生意的外觀跟表彰"},{"start":12376.893,"end":12393.766,"text":"讓更多的人什麼 讓更多的人相信他如果主委認為這不是業者單獨的自我聲明有實際的管制效果那就跟大家報告你實際的管制效果是什麼那我們請我們檢察局局長來跟各位說明一下 謝謝好 請局長"},{"start":12395.137,"end":12417.607,"text":"那就是說檢查局在112年檢查這四家的這個這個弊傷比較大的規模這四家弊傷的檢查結果那我們棋局這邊已經做了一個裁罰的部分那至於說等一下什麼時候做的檢查112年的第四季那我們的檢查報告也都有給這個棋局那什麼時候"},{"start":12419.528,"end":12424.45,"text":"什麼時候做了裁罰?在113年的時候113年什麼時候?在政企局這邊也有對這四家比較大規模的幣商已經做了這個裁罰罰了多少錢?罰了150萬左右罰了150萬喔?你們覺得有什麼效果嗎?"},{"start":12446.151,"end":12462.625,"text":"另外也報告委員就是說不是嘛我先確認一下剛你說去年有裁判的包括這個碧翔科技嘛對不起碧翔科技是還沒有檢查是今年在114年在這個禮拜一有去派員去對嘛所以我就請你針對問題回答嘛大家看到的是什麼"},{"start":12469.125,"end":12492.709,"text":"這跟詐騙集團勾結的洗錢集團非常囂張啊在網頁上面啊用通過金管會的洗錢防治聲明在做廣告所以跟我們報告這並不代表說這個東西是我們所以嘛你就大聲的跟台灣社會講嘛通過什麼金管會的洗錢防治聲明不代表什麼啊It's nothing"},{"start":12493.51,"end":12516.439,"text":"但是我們現在沒有任何的意義但是我們現在已經進入到我們現在去做更嚴謹的登記制的管理我想這部分3月31號截止以後現在有31家來申請我們做嚴格的審查我想這個東西我們對虛擬制裁幣商有提出申請嗎他有提出申請他在3月30號31號提出你們現在整個審核的過程到哪裡"},{"start":12517.359,"end":12538.27,"text":"現在就是我們大概已經受理的現在有31家我們會再嚴格來審查他們的條件主席站起來了我最後提醒兩件事第一個當詐騙這麼猖獗當虛擬貨物成為這些詐騙集團洗錢集團的工具的時候希望金管會"},{"start":12539.485,"end":12567.573,"text":"要有具體的作為這當然是我們現在努力的目標我們現在訂定那個虛擬生產管理專法沒有關係啦就是針對這個東西來處理你們是不是有具體的作為成效怎麼樣社會大眾會看嘛是 我們來努力第二個他現在要跟你們辦洗錢房制的登記嘛是的注意看一下他的負責人之前擔任公司的那個總經理是非法的入資在台灣設立的"},{"start":12569.782,"end":12597.917,"text":"我現在已經看不懂了早就被抓到了現在這個公司的負責人之前在擔任的是一個非法的入資在台灣設立公司的總經理但是呢暢通無阻繼續搞彷彿毫不設防一點影響都沒有一點影響都沒有這個是現在大家啦"},{"start":12598.905,"end":12614.151,"text":"沒有辦法理解的事情這是大家沒有辦法理解的事情第二件事情現在這家公司我就看不懂他部分的網站暫停營運部分的網站持續交易監管會有沒有掌握"},{"start":12616.005,"end":12640.103,"text":"這個我們已經有跟 請檢察局跟檢調這邊來處理然後呢 現在拿他沒批調沒有 我們現在正在處理中正在處理當中啊這不肖的業者啊關了部分的網站當什麼上演法啊其他的部分繼續再搞希望金管會速度快一點 可以嗎我們這個目標跟委員講的是一樣我們也一樣要來 全力來阻止這件事情"},{"start":12640.703,"end":12644.226,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝國常委員 接著請陳一貞委員質詢謝謝主席 我們請這個彭主委好 請彭主委主席在這邊宣布 我們現在開放在現場用餐"},{"start":12665.74,"end":12687.917,"text":"主委本期在前兩次會期都有跟您詢問過就是研議民間版的創櫃機制那您也有回覆說今晚會有回覆說104年起已經開放證券商得經營股權性質群眾募資業成效有三家新創公司那時候的回覆是募資的金額現在有新台幣1700萬元"},{"start":12690.379,"end":12690.559,"text":"1千7百萬"},{"start":12707.799,"end":12722.63,"text":"又過了半年有沒有再增加目前是沒有增加的沒有增加 為什麼你們不認真做這個嗎沒有 貴買壯興其實他們有在做這個業務那他們有去鼓勵或者把法規做出來所以你們不重視這種這個創櫃這個民間版的創櫃機制的這種募資的這個業務喔還是你們的做法是錯誤的"},{"start":12730.612,"end":12756.928,"text":"我們當然是重視這個機制重視怎麼會沒有成效呢我們現在所謂的創櫃板我們有做一個整個你看喔為了扶植中小微型企業你們政局有最新的函令解釋就是說通過限定綜合證券商可以投資創櫃板登錄期間發行的新股投資總計量不得超過券商競爭百分之五也不受標準公司單次發行的這個限制所以這個是比較新的新聞了"},{"start":12757.648,"end":12775.656,"text":"那可見我覺得儘管會在這個彭主委過來的話包括很多的金融的這個措施我都感覺上有要創新有要前進有要這個但是這個雖然你們修了這些修了那些你們好像整個成效都很差因為我們從這個以這個募資來講的話我們講了兩個會期啦上個會期1700到現在還是沒有啊那你也知道我很關心這個議題啊"},{"start":12782.159,"end":12803.819,"text":"不過成效差我們會來虛心檢討啦所以我們一直跟你們提出說你們是不是這個股權群募平台是不是要有新的做法嘛我一直在講說比如說中小企業主管的這個中小企業開發公司跟新創企業這些來做募資平台你們是不是你們有創新處嘛 對不對那找這個中小企業開發公司櫃買找來是不是一起來想看怎麼來做啊"},{"start":12804.66,"end":12823.582,"text":"這個我們一定會來努力啦只是說現在的時候有一些法規法律上面的限制我們要來突破我知道金管會一直想突破很多法...我覺得您上來以後很多相關的法律都一直有在突破嘛但是我覺得你下面的單位好像對這些事情都有點不大認真啦"},{"start":12824.202,"end":12843.869,"text":"這也不能這麼說啦因為主要是說我們看結果嘛1700萬這樣算金額嗎從上個會議到現在那我現在跟你請求啦就是說這個我一直在講說這個中小企業這個因為還經濟部在管嘛那也有相關的公司有這些有新創企業嘛他們也有新創署嘛我們這邊也有這個創新處嘛這相關單位是不是一起來開個會啊"},{"start":12849.271,"end":12865.389,"text":"是不是來集思廣益到底是怎麼來做啊我們已經建議很多回啦因為你們都被動不前進啊也不是啦如果說啊這個問題能夠解決好解決早解決啦那就是沒有努力在那個吧沒有這個問題一定是有它的複雜度所以我覺得我們可以再來"},{"start":12866.11,"end":12888.562,"text":"早時間大家來開會吧我們這一點我們是已經問了一年多啦我想說那個彭主委上來以後很多觀念都比較新嘛包括等一下我們要講比如高齡的這個保單的這個部分也開放了啦當然我們的想法是說真的是正確的事情又能夠做我們當然就盡量來完成好 這個我們還會繼續聽啦好 謝謝那接著我們講另外幾點啦 政局局聽到沒"},{"start":12889.602,"end":12908.612,"text":"這個績效真的很差一年以來半年來都沒有任何的成長表示你們根本不用1700萬根本就等於是沒有一樣等於是沒有任何的進步還應該說不進則退還算是退步來討論一下今天這個保險法你們是有研究說是要放寬放行這個保單職介對吧"},{"start":12910.434,"end":12924.531,"text":"銀行的部分就是對對就是說放行給銀行做這個可以做直接的業務現在保險公司本來就依法就可以做我知道我知道我說但是現在是放行就是變成多銀行可以可以向銀行直接啦他可以做一個授信的標的只要銀行可以接受"},{"start":12926.353,"end":12945.934,"text":"那這個跟現行的保險法是不是有相關的抵觸?這個沒有,今天就好像比如說銀行在做融資的時候,他會有他自己的考量比如說我們最極端可以做信用融資,不用任何的保險我不是不支持,我是支持,我的意思是說,那這個東西是不是要再修法?保險法120條這個規定"},{"start":12950.866,"end":12977.359,"text":"原來的規定是向保險人借款耶原來就向受險借款嘛那你現在說不只嘛銀行也可以嘛比如說可能是A公司啊藍山的保單啊可以去向比如說富邦銀行舉例啦五大國泰、富邦、星光、藍山、凱基五大受險就是有做財管的嘛我知道你現在一直力推這個財富管理的部分我看得出那個金管會的彭主委的這個想法這個我們也是很支持只是說你這個東西不用修法是吧"},{"start":12977.799,"end":12992.402,"text":"不用 這個跟委員打個比方比如說今天銀行要借你錢他說你個人信用很好的話其實什麼抵押品都不需要假設你今天比如說你今天想去什麼抵押品都不需要很少"},{"start":12993.083,"end":13017.014,"text":"就是信用放款比如說你今天來講的話我想去這個拿一個比如說我的有價證券來做擔保只要銀行接受我覺得我就可以所以你認為這個不用修法就銀行的因為現在的現在來講保單要直接的話必須當然是像原來的這個保險公司保險人這一方面沒關係你們要這樣解釋我也不要就是說你在法律的部分要注意這個"},{"start":13018.134,"end":13040.184,"text":"跟現行的法規有沒有符合如果要的話也必須要依法來辦那另外一個是說你們現在的開放方向是高資產階層嘛目的是為什麼只有開放高資產如果一般百姓呢就叫事辦的意思事辦就是說我們希望現在我們先了解一下這個業務所產生的一些的效益跟風險會是什麼因為我們不想"},{"start":13041.064,"end":13067.776,"text":"因為高資產的客戶他風險承擔人力比較高一定是先從這個開始如果我們事辦的結果良好沒有其他的問題的話我們再會擴展到其他就是普遍的大眾就對了我們也是在做一種如果他是符合法令的就沒有所謂事辦就任何人都可以做如果法令沒有不許的話那我不管是你是高資產還是我是一般資產的就誰都可以做啊"},{"start":13068.676,"end":13094.271,"text":"這我已經講的沒錯但是法令這兩個字有兩個層次一個叫做法律一個叫做令是這樣嗎法令一個另外一個就是很多我們的行政規則很多的其他的監管的層次這個東西呢我們在事辦的時候所以現在也是不允許的嘛是因為你們可能打算用一個函令來解釋這個東西對因為這個部分我們就以法規而言你這個順序也要有行政規則上面或是治理規範很多是可能暫時沒辦法做的但是我們用一個有限範圍的開放"},{"start":13095.552,"end":13099.712,"text":"然後再一個能夠承擔高風險如果是有先放開放表示現在是不允許的嗎"},{"start":13100.719,"end":13127.262,"text":"對 現在就是 它只是不是法律層次的問題只是說你覺得不要用修法的方式只能用行政函式啊 或一個事辦規則啊 什麼這一類的位階比較低的方式來做這些好 因為我是支持彭主委一向往開放的方向走啦不管是我們說這個中小企業啊 募資啊 或者是新創啊這些我們都非常支持啊 這個我也 我也是支持只是說你這個開辦的期間大概你預計事辦多久我們現在的所有的事辦 大概我們都以六到一年為原則啦六到一"},{"start":13127.682,"end":13152.218,"text":"六個月到印尼六個月是個觀察期我們就看他情況如果說事辦成效良好就是說比如說那可能就會開放到一般的客戶就逐步開放到按照風險承受那這個下去可能會有產生一些問題就是說那到時候發生如果沒有辦法融資他直接沒有辦法償還的時候那那個債權優先順序是銀行嗎比如說我拿我的保單去跟銀行借那這個到時候債權的順序問題還有我的保單的效率會變成是什麼樣"},{"start":13158.043,"end":13175.005,"text":"就是說到時候會有相關的這個議題可能你們就必須要重視啊你知道我的意思嗎我的保單拿去直接的嘛那我現在我後來又還不起那還不起的話那這個保單的這個就會被押走嘛就會被這個我的就是融資方拿走嘛"},{"start":13175.566,"end":13195.217,"text":"那這樣子的話你現在開放就只有銀行嘛對不對對做一個這個好那接著如果現在還有保險的效率問題喔這個可能有很多高資產的客戶我知道我知道那高資產的客戶定義是用銀行來定義的是嗎就是說哪一些銀行銀行這五家嘛財管這五家他們定義的高資產客戶嗎所以是由他們來決定哪些人是嗎"},{"start":13195.717,"end":13198.458,"text":"我們高資產客戶有一個標準一億以上不含不動產就是這個人的資產當然有些銀行會更高你明確定義個人資產在"},{"start":13221.925,"end":13242.726,"text":"1億元以上 不管它是現金 存款 金融資產 股票 不含不動產不含不動產 不動產也有 借也有 也有借的啊也有跟銀行融資出來 不含不動產銀行不動產的借跟不管是融資什麼這些都不算那要不要扣掉不動產借貸的金額啊 還是是淨資產啊"},{"start":13246.489,"end":13260.657,"text":"這個銀行都知道我們在財富管理2.0的規範都很清楚沒有我只是想知道說這個規定是由銀行來決定還是說就是我們金融會有同一個標準那接下來銀行自己會決定OK 銀行決定我們有第一個最低的標準往上你可以自己決定比如說你要服務什麼樣的客戶"},{"start":13261.437,"end":13283.84,"text":"有一個最低標準但這標準是由你們決定因為每家銀行可能對高資產客戶的定義不一樣我是鼓勵當然對金融我看黃志偉上任以來對很多包括像我跟高齡的這個高齡的這個也是有開放跟以前黃志偉時代也是有不一樣那我們對我對我們的這個我們國內這些金融的產品或各方面我覺得的確是有些東西是比較"},{"start":13284.929,"end":13301.163,"text":"不那麼開放 不那麼進步我也是鼓勵很多東西是創新進步我們都支持謝謝委員鼓勵跟支持但是如果有依法要注意的部分也是要注意尤其後面有權利判決的部分的時候包括融資銀行跟這個保單效益這個可能也要特別注意那當然 謝謝謝謝議員 謝謝接著請王世堅委員質詢"},{"start":13317.036,"end":13319.279,"text":"謝謝主席我請那個彭主委請彭主委喂好彭主委108年那麼最高法院發了這個裁定就是說對於對於債務人那麼"},{"start":13338.232,"end":13353.337,"text":"執行並且要求這個授權契約終止 償付這個解約金那這個裁定之後我光是講2023年一年齁2023年1月到隔一年的9月"},{"start":13358.035,"end":13373.769,"text":"我們全國法院扣押保單的件數超過92萬8千件這造成法院極大的負荷而且也讓人心惶惶那受險工會"},{"start":13377.128,"end":13404.093,"text":"以這個判決那麼他也接受法院來查詢保單過去法院查詢的保單大概一年比方說2022年才3500件到2024年光那一年啊就查詢了57萬3000件可以說這是不堪負荷啦那我必須先講一下當然欠債還錢這是天經地義"},{"start":13407.449,"end":13435.671,"text":"不過大家如果回想一下第一點我們國家的勞保一直到了民國77年喔民國77年之後才同意給中小企業微型企業的負責人來加保也就是說在民國77年之前啊如果你個人經營生意事業的"},{"start":13437.593,"end":13445.602,"text":"那不管多大多微小那你不能家寶所以當時啊政府"},{"start":13446.519,"end":13467.684,"text":"跟保險公司都鼓勵大家說來買個保險保障你不管你以後成功失敗好歹你有一個基本的生存保險所以當時的承諾保險公司當時信誓旦旦說這些保險資料絕對"},{"start":13470.1,"end":13487.208,"text":"不會被徵詢到這個個資絕對不會外洩這是事實你可以回去查一查那結果在這樣子的誤導之下保險公司業績大好今天如果"},{"start":13489.181,"end":13514.386,"text":"去要保的人 被保險人如果是惡性倒閉我跟你倆借了一千萬 我再一千萬全部買保險藉著你保險的這個機密 不得外洩我把錢藏起來 惡性倒閉 那這就不對可是不是啊你看這麼龐大的數字裡面現在民怨這麼高裡面 就是很多民眾"},{"start":13518.145,"end":13542.066,"text":"當時你銀行、金控公司包括租賃公司、融資公司你願意借給我你頂多你就是透過金融的徵詢、查詢那那些查詢不到這些保險啊你針對我的抵押品、我的信用我企業經營的良善與否我個人的character"},{"start":13543.652,"end":13565.487,"text":"品格那來做出這個授信的同意與否不是嗎跟這個保險無關嘛怎麼突然間過去你這樣徵詢我你同意借我啦現在我失敗了你從過去你沒徵詢到的你也沒評估在內的你叫他說這個也要拿出來賠"},{"start":13566.912,"end":13590.228,"text":"所以我覺得我覺得這要做適度的修正也就是說要橫憑債權債務他們之間資歷的差距所以我是打算這樣我提出的保險法123之1條的修正有三大我這裡面列的有三個大原則第一個原則就是說如果這個保險契約"},{"start":13595.635,"end":13612.259,"text":"這個金額債權金額沒有超過107條第二項的額度不得作為扣押強制執行的標定107條第二項就是這個針對金額我簡單講68萬5嘛那就是針對針對死亡失能也就是傷臟補助這個金額"},{"start":13625.436,"end":13652.734,"text":"這個不是現在我們在討論的說台北七萬多金門五萬多鄉下地區三萬多一個基本生活不是那你要他怎樣七萬多花完叫他去跳樓嗎如果他已經退休七十歲了可以這樣嗎七萬多塊三個月半年了不起一年基本生活就花完了不是嗎"},{"start":13654.079,"end":13674.291,"text":"所以他製造另外一個社會問題 因為銀行 軍公公司 尤其是租賃公司這些是強勢 租賃公司還是虛高利貸血汗欸 他們也參一腳藉著最高法院的這一個判決 他們也來參一腳"},{"start":13676.297,"end":13696.185,"text":"所以我認為要加入橫貧法則要提高要提高豁免額度六十八萬五我覺得這不為過這不為過買服務棺材都要三十萬了不是嗎所以那第二個原則我認為"},{"start":13698.666,"end":13715.538,"text":"這個藥保的債務人 小兒中老保險小兒中老保險最高 最高金額 理賠金額90萬而已啊90萬而已嘛不管你買幾張 就是90萬那怕他什麼"},{"start":13717.298,"end":13740.89,"text":"不是嗎再來我加入一條就是說如果執行法院斟酌債務人債權人生活狀況跟其他形式有慎為有失公平的得扣押也就是說債權人其實有區分的債權人又強勢債權人就是我剛剛講的租賃公司銀行金扣"},{"start":13742.643,"end":13759.715,"text":"這些是強勢債權人那也有弱勢債權人弱勢債權人比方說被害人被車子撞到被你撞成重傷撞成殘廢撞死比方說圍觀大樓倒塌那些都是弱勢的債權人那被受到傷害的弱勢債權人當然"},{"start":13767.728,"end":13793.654,"text":"他們就可以來執行就可以根據我所謂的123條之一這個衡平條款就是說如果以法院來斟酌認為有必須的也就是弱勢債權人我們要保障他我們要保障他那這樣就公平啦那那個主委你知道嗎我剛剛在講強勢弱勢齁到現在為止喔到現在為止"},{"start":13797.075,"end":13824.677,"text":"現在來執行這些保單的銀行 租賃公司 資產管理公司佔了整個按量的百分之九十欸九成啊被這些強勢的其實是他們來搞的真的弱勢的 我剛剛跟你講車禍啦建商蓋得不好倒掉這種弱勢的債券只佔百分之十不到"},{"start":13826.192,"end":13844.513,"text":"那這個條款當初最高法院人家他的裁定他並不是要造成社會有這樣的紛擾我們國家所有的法律所有的法院都應該為人民服務不是嗎"},{"start":13845.987,"end":13870.308,"text":"怎麼可以任由那些 清空公司他賺錢我們社會沒有人忌妒他但是 所有清空公司都賺不是幾十億耶現在每年都賺上百億之多他還來鉅於這一點來鉅於早年 現在很多退休的他當初買一個保險 為了他中老"},{"start":13872.22,"end":13883.683,"text":"現在我們在討論這個說 啊 五萬 三萬 最高台北市七萬豁免他七萬 請問七萬元 讓一個退休老人他可以中養幾個月那七萬都用完了 你叫他跳樓嗎所以我認為 這張保單"},{"start":13896.38,"end":13918.947,"text":"可能是這個終其一生為國家社會盡他的力量效命的微型企業主小型企業主個體戶他一輩子他奮鬥的目標就剩那一點只為了生存而已所以我認為啊出自123之一"},{"start":13921.192,"end":13943.492,"text":"我希望能夠朝我講的就是我們納入橫頻條款那我們對小兒中老保險不多不管你幾張總金額才90萬元我們有必要這樣子苛刻為國家社會效命我們的老人家們有必要對他們這樣子"},{"start":13945.856,"end":13954.103,"text":"千刀萬里追嗎好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝世堅委員接著請林思敏委員質詢好 謝謝召委請彭主委好 請彭主委"},{"start":13971.056,"end":13994.306,"text":"主委好 我想剛才黃士堅委員一分天意對於這個豁免額度可能這次金管會的修法我想委員很多都有意見他也為很多弱勢族群來提出他的一個憤憤不平的一個看法當然主委剛才沒有回答所以我現在請問主委我想今天我們審查保險法的修正"},{"start":13995.766,"end":14012.74,"text":"對於豁免執行的解約金的債權金額行政院的版本就是以最近一年衛生福利部或直轄市政府所公告當地區每人每月最低生活費的1.2倍乘以3個月這樣的金額為計算的一個基礎"},{"start":14015.402,"end":14039.755,"text":"但主委 我想請教你 你知不知道所謂的最低生活費它代表的意義是什麼我想 當然是因為我的理解 我以前沒有接觸到這裡的時候我也不是很了解為什麼會有這個最低生活費後來知道因為了解以後 強制執行的目的並不是要讓人家完全走上一個絕路啦還是要有一個基本的生活"},{"start":14040.935,"end":14062.764,"text":"但是這個標準呢 就要訂一個標準 讓大家好遵循所以按照各地的生活成本來看 那我們當初會訂這個就是因為這是因為強制執勤而來 所以我們就依循這個當然剛剛委員講的沒有錯 就是很多人對這個有很有意見 因為保險畢竟不太相同所以我們經過這次的公聽 還有很多的意見以後 我們剛才跟很多委員關心 我也提過"},{"start":14064.625,"end":14083.012,"text":"這個我們基於簡證辨明我們可以把它這個標準不要用這麼這個各地的標準我們可以統一的方式來做我告訴你一個概念其實是這個最低生活費其實它是用來當成是否可以申請成為低收入戶的標準我們以那個"},{"start":14085.892,"end":14100.024,"text":"以台北市為例,台北市最低生活費是多少呢?是20379元以六都來看最低是台南市的15515元"},{"start":14103.666,"end":14120.983,"text":"那麼我想我上次在上一次的我們財政委員會的公聽會針對這個要不要把房屋租金納為這個特別扣除額那我就去收集相關的數據內政部公告去年台北市的平均房屋租金是13,054元"},{"start":14124.366,"end":14132.734,"text":"所以你現在以最低生活標準以台北市為例20379元你扣除房屋租金13054元他僅剩7325元"},{"start":14139.981,"end":14160.624,"text":"扣除他住的需求 生活費只剩下七千三百多所以這是一個非常低的生活標準所以我認為說如果這一次修法你以最低生活標準來作為你們作為這一次豁免的計算基礎 顯然是太低了"},{"start":14161.184,"end":14182.806,"text":"也就是說一個弱勢的保險人 腰保人如果他過去或許他生活很好 所以他買了一張保單那也繳了很多年 但是突然間他面臨困境 他成為低收入戶他要去繳他的租金 房屋租金等等 剩下的生活費不多了"},{"start":14183.584,"end":14209.589,"text":"但是當他欠債突然間因為這個可能遭遇到什麼大的一個問題所以他今天欠債了但是他過去所繳的保險費他卻因為以這個你用最低收入來計算造成他很容易他的過去所辛辛苦苦的對他一個非常小的一個保障的保險契約就因此而被剝奪了"},{"start":14211.324,"end":14235.484,"text":"所以謝謝委員提供這麼詳細的這些的說明其實我剛剛跟委員解釋過其實我們在剛剛的前面很多委員也關心過我們這個標準只是當時因為依循我們強制執行法的概念剛才提到就是說這如果會增加很多成本我們也覺得剛剛有委員建議說我們用同一個標準比如像委員有建議用最低工資這是一個統一的標準不會因為地區的差異"},{"start":14236.405,"end":14260.2,"text":"再剛才像王委員提到那個額度的部分我們也覺得說這要有社會共識我們持開放的態度大家覺得都可以討論我們這邊只是先提剛才委員講一個月我們的版本是三個月大家有更高的共識我們都表示尊重這部分我剛才講已經說明過了所以主委所以你是贊成所以這一次的行政院的你提出來的版本確實它是不足以橫評這個"},{"start":14262.662,"end":14281.012,"text":"債權人跟債務人的權益當然因為債權債務人關係非常的複雜但是就說第一個我們這個經過公聽的時候很多學者專家有完全不一樣的看法其實主委我要告訴你保險它的精神跟目的在哪裡"},{"start":14281.932,"end":14291.606,"text":"保險就是要保障我們生活上萬一發生任何的問題的話一個卑微的最基本的生活保障"},{"start":14292.722,"end":14311.624,"text":"那如果說連這樣基本的生活保障都要因為欠了一些債務就把它剝奪了這個就失去保險的目的所以剛才王世傑一直強調啊過去人家招攬保險的講得多好聽啊這個絕對不會被強制執行啊不會被扣押啊那謝謝委員其實我本身擔任保險的"},{"start":14312.845,"end":14329.885,"text":"老師快30年了你是專家我非常清楚其實保險契約本身來講如果純粹只是比如說是以保障的話這個應該不構成強制執行只是說我們很明顯看到就是說我們最近幾年很多商品的演進我想"},{"start":14330.506,"end":14359.143,"text":"很多人確實有一些保單是拿來當儲蓄的我想各位都很清楚這保單開始變這樣有些人就會拿來這樣才會引發這次的大法庭做這樣一個解釋所以我說我自己交保險三十幾年過去都不會是個議題當然這件事情我們希望趕快來解決這個問題所以我們來提這個修法所以剛才講我們也權衡各方但是我們對這個態度我們是尊重我們覺得大家有更高的共識所以主委我這次修法的版本你贊成嗎"},{"start":14361.084,"end":14386.78,"text":"我是認為說是以當年度政府公告的最低工資的三個月金額作為基數這個是一個好的地方就是它是確定的就很確定不會有什麼各個地方不一樣的一個情況另外也有人提出就是以剛剛講的標準最高作為一個基準用一個比如說以最高的直轄市就是台北市最高作為標準"},{"start":14387.62,"end":14414.101,"text":"其實我覺得大家利益都相同就是不要有地域的差別主委我結論這樣子我希望你們考慮支持本席的一個版本這個版本我也經過深思熟慮我也我個人也認為說這樣以這個這個基本工資我們政府公關基本工資來做計算的話這個應該是有兼顧到我們債權人以及我們被保險人或者邀保人的相關的一個權益"},{"start":14415.322,"end":14436.153,"text":"我希望你們能夠不願意現在這樣一個修法的版本而能夠提出更好的版本我想司法院其實他也支持說這樣子的一個以現行的版本可能是對我們整個債權人或者債務人尤其對債務人的權益的保障是不夠的"},{"start":14440.775,"end":14467.137,"text":"但是他也提出一個觀點如果說認為債務人可能藉此來分散保險契約也就是拆單的方式來規避執行的疑慮也可以斟酌修訂或免執行保險契約比數的規定那這部分金管會是不是也要把它考量進去其實我們有評估過仔細評估過要來拆單我覺得這個可能性真的不高因為保險拆單太辛苦"},{"start":14469.017,"end":14489.442,"text":"我們現在管理的實務上我們監理實務上也不允許保險公司接受這裡故意拆單所以司法院的意見你是不採納不是 我們的版本我覺得更能夠簡正便民就是用足單的那個概念來做我知道簡便但是太低了用最低生活標準太低了我剛才講說那個額度的部分我們可以討論可以尊重"},{"start":14490.282,"end":14510.757,"text":"尊重我們審查的結果但是這個沒有問題剛才很多人有提出這樣的一個看法我覺得這個大家可以來討論我們是尊重直開放的態度所以你還是會支持說我的版本你會支持吧就是那個方向我們剛才已經確定就是說我們朝一個確定的方向但是你要很明確的告訴我們委員你們到底你們的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":14511.377,"end":14527.285,"text":"那這樣的話我剛才講過就是說只要比現在的那個成本下降我覺得剛剛委員的那個方向跟另外一個的提案是非常類似啦我覺得是並同來討論的好好以上好謝謝好謝謝思明接著請羅聽偉委員質詢好謝謝有請主委是請主委委員好"},{"start":14539.841,"end":14563.415,"text":"好 主委謝謝有鑒於最高法院108年度台康大治第1號897號裁定認定執行法院必要時得核發命令終止債務人名下的人壽保險契約並命保險公司償付解約金此裁定確定後保單遭強制執行的案件是即增"},{"start":14564.235,"end":14583.729,"text":"造成司法體系負擔的加重保險金融機構經營壓力上升並嚴重侵害到保護被保險人及受益人的基本權益我想人壽保險具有高度的公益性意在提供死亡、失能、疾病等基本保險不應視為財產的性質、任意的宗旨"},{"start":14587.972,"end":14603.657,"text":"那強制執行的程序當中未設終止保險契約及破壞民眾基本的一個社會安全網我想這也加重了國家社會的一個救助體系的一個負擔所以有違保險制度一個設立的一個本質"},{"start":14604.597,"end":14619.392,"text":"我想這些東西主委你應該都非常的清楚相關的一個脈絡但是呢確保債務人即便遭扣押執行能夠維持基本保險所以我們才今天希望能夠提出保險法的一個部分條文修正"},{"start":14620.273,"end":14641.932,"text":"以完善這個社會的保障機制我自己也有提案但是我有幾個問題想請教一下主委在法制的作業上任何一部法案提出的時候在行政院審查之前都會要求各部會針對修正的重點作為法規的一個影響評估請問能不能將保險法的法規影響評估提供給各個委員看一下"},{"start":14643.266,"end":14658.367,"text":"我想我們在提案之前當然有跟相關比如跟我們的司法院法務部還有行政院那個那法治人民都做溝通還有當然包括學者專家我相信所以我說法規的影響評估我們想知道一下"},{"start":14659.368,"end":14674.539,"text":"會員可以提供給我嗎可以啊就是等於說我們的相關的過程文件我可以提供給委員好那剛剛主委有提到你也是在交保險的是的那我想問一下請問都是哪些族群被強制執行保單您個人知道嗎"},{"start":14675.319,"end":14697.633,"text":"我想從現在契約的角度來看其實大法庭的裁定只有人壽保險契約但是實際上我們在實務上幾乎所有的都有可能購買到人壽所以主選不一定對 其實我們看那個配比裡面大概有七成四左右是傷害跟健康傷害險跟健康險"},{"start":14698.433,"end":14727.853,"text":"那這部分這也是為什麼我覺得這個東西啊應該直接把它排除這是我們立法上面很重要的就實務上很多賢總實在是不具備有被有查扣的價值的時候也變成這個獸類我想這個就是我們現在面臨到很大的問題我想什麼該排除什麼該保留這個部分我們尊重專業但目前我們看到一些困境就是這些當事者他們所提出的那社會已經造成這樣子的一個氛圍的時候我們注意到我們希望能夠重視那我想問一下"},{"start":14728.853,"end":14745.041,"text":"主委你有沒有知道多少保單被強制執行現在就是總共我們現在按量裡面我們的統計大概123萬件左右123萬件我是不知道你的70年但是我的70年如果是20231月的話到20249月"},{"start":14747.702,"end":14771.181,"text":"法院扣押的保單件數就是92.8萬件沒關係這個沒有要比數字正確啦但是可以看到是數字量蠻高的所以我們現在才準備要來修法我是覺得稍嫌過慢但是行政院院版在設定上每人每月最低生活費剛剛很多的委員都在探討這一題"},{"start":14772.742,"end":14792.489,"text":"1.2倍乘以三個月作為免執行的一個標準但是司法院的報告你們有掌握嗎司法院的報告是標準偏低啦所以剛剛為什麼司民委員世間委員他們甚至是非常非常的批判甚至到很嚴厲的"},{"start":14793.709,"end":14822.768,"text":"那我們都是一貫的態度就是為民請命當然希望能夠把民眾的聲音傳達這樣的標準實在是太低啊司法院也提出了建議請問免執行的標準是否有調整的機會您覺得呢我剛才已經表達過很多次我們尊重可以可以做回來努力對我想從這個保障基本生活的權利啦重新評估這個門檻另外現行介入權三個月真的夠嗎您個人呢"},{"start":14824.569,"end":14848.528,"text":"有兩個不同的意見啦因為實際上 越早確定有人主張越早確定越好否則這個關係這麼久的話除非不確定狀況其實不見得是有利啦我的版本是六個月啦 對對對我們還是介入人往往是被保險人的配偶子女短時間要籌出一筆錢保住保單三個月多數人我覺得是真的不夠啦"},{"start":14849.669,"end":14876.759,"text":"經管會是否有實際統計或者是評估資料支持三個月就足夠你要說服我們不是單單就告訴我們三個月所以這樣子的判斷我是覺得說是基於作業方便嗎還是真的有這樣子的依據所以我要再次強調我的版本是六個月修法後如何確保各保險公司執行機關落實規定避免能夠損及保障基本的權益這個是我們現在要來努力的"},{"start":14877.219,"end":14901.512,"text":"跟委員報告我們可以提供資料我們主要參考國家他們在提供一個月啦那我們已經變三個月這資料給我了解一下可以可以沒問題我們在主條討論的時候我們再來探討都沒關係但是我希望不要忘記基本的生活權莫忘世上苦人多對這是我們的本質啦族群各個種類都有但是我們永遠要救能救一個算一個就是我們不要忘記苦民所苦謝謝對謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":14902.633,"end":14921.572,"text":"謝謝謝謝庭委接著葉言之葉言之葉言之委員不在楊瓊英楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在那請陳佩儀委員質詢好謝謝主席那有請主委謝謝彭主委彭主委"},{"start":14925.087,"end":14942.862,"text":"喂好好 主委午安午安快速跟您討論一下我想我今天是要來給您拍拍手的真的要感謝您在那個今天的修法當中保險法167之一你們在立法說明裡面特別提到為了配合政府提供職業運動員保險保障的政策讓運動員可以安心參加比賽鑒於目前國內相關保險產品是"},{"start":14951.149,"end":14960.191,"text":"不符合 可能不符合運動員的需求所以可以開放向國外的保險產業買相關的商品所以有了這一次的修法是的投影片還沒有出來"},{"start":14962.148,"end":14982.857,"text":"好沒關係那這個修法我真的覺得非常非常的重要我當然也希望後續我們在委員會討論完之後後續所有相關修法進度都可以順利的推進那事實上這一題其實我在2023年9月當時我就向黃天牧主委做過質詢那非常感謝當時的監管會很積極的跟我們辦公室進行修法的討論"},{"start":14983.697,"end":15006.795,"text":"那後來呢在2024年我還跟當時的林志憲副局長他現在是法務處的處長我們有討論過這個題目那我們看到相關進度真的非常非常感謝我要說是這件事情其實對於線上的運動員也好或是各式各樣我們的學生運動員職業運動員非職業運動員各式各樣的運動員其實非常非常重要所以我想要說一下來繼續給您拍拍手"},{"start":15007.455,"end":15031.224,"text":"值班公會昨天已經發了聲明說肯定行政院當然由你們來主導這個保險法的修法它確實可以健全選手的投保選擇這件事情真的非常非常重要但是所以我要提醒其實修法完很多辛苦的工作才正要開始包含在金管會後續要如何去完備這件事情因為修法的啟動但是後續的細節例如說我們盤點了我們認為體育署"},{"start":15034.305,"end":15039.65,"text":"還有大專體總因為他會接觸到很多高階學生運動員還有各個單項協會因為他們也會接觸到非常多聯賽組他們是聯賽主辦單位他們也會接觸到很多運動員還有各個球員公會因為他們本身是運動員團體我們認為他們都會是你們後續在修法後在確切執行上相關的建議應該要傾聽他們的聲音這個部分金管會是不是可以給我們一個比較積極的承諾沒問題"},{"start":15059.406,"end":15082.8,"text":"第二個是關於國內的保險公司代理經濟招攬的業者在這個修法後如何協助國內運動員關注國外可參考的保險商品這個部分我相信金管會應該也會提供相關的輔導對不對對 我們會來對 相關的保金保貸公司對 因為當然因為剛剛那個在做報告我也說明了七根文報告因為當初這個案子我還是當老師的時候我就被邀請去體育署做這個"},{"start":15083.96,"end":15110.109,"text":"所以有跟評議室討論過了對對對就是我在還是當老師的時候他們就有來跟我討論過這問題我也是非常的支持因為我也知道我們現行的這些問題可能沒辦法滿足他的需求他也跟我講了很多很多我才理解這個問題那剛才委員提到就是說我們後續怎麼做配套比如說誰可以來做這件事情適格的保險經紀人怎麼買到一個適合的商品而不要成為我們因為我們保險法另外一個非常嚴厲的規定"},{"start":15111.149,"end":15136.747,"text":"是不可以做地下保單那個是要很明確的區隔不要讓人誤以為說我們這個條文的開放的美意被誤用所以這部分我們會來跟請保險局這邊就委員剛剛提到的第一個相關的配套比如說這個要怎麼跟各個相關的這個體育單位來溝通來做出它最適合的保單又能符合我們政策管理上面的"},{"start":15137.307,"end":15164.7,"text":"目的這部分我們會來努力對好所以老師主委你真的懂非常非常多細節我們期待後續好那接下來我想要請教另外一件事情就是我前一個願望已經達成我要來許新的願望在現在的鄭麗君副院長在她當立委的時候2019年她建議金管會在上市上櫃公司永續發展實務守則裡面可以把投資文化事業當成是一個重要的CSR指標"},{"start":15165.7,"end":15181.307,"text":"那這件事情應該是經過一年的討論後續你們就納入這個相關的辦法裡頭我先想要問台灣八月即將成立運動部要掛牌後續我認為我們要如何鼓勵企業可以投資在例如說運動相關產業甚至是基層運動團隊這件事情有沒有機會來進行討論嗎"},{"start":15185.236,"end":15207.654,"text":"我想委員這樣講的內容其實我們現在對上市櫃公司我們進行了這些ESG評鑑公司治理評鑑 ESG評鑑還有就是包括我們對金融業做的永續金融評鑑這些我們都可以來朝這個方向來考量怎麼樣對於促進國人健康還是對於所謂的"},{"start":15209.035,"end":15222.692,"text":"鼓勵體育活動這些東西也是屬於我們永續推動的一個事項我想這部分我會請同仁來研究我們辦公室也會再跟你們開會最後最後來我要感謝證券期貨周邊單位各個基層體育單位的支持"},{"start":15226.237,"end":15255.501,"text":"那我現在就是服務金門跟馬祖其實我們離島也有非常多運動基層團隊需要支持那其實我也是我們在國會女性外交運動的成員之一其實台灣有非常多女性運動的團隊也很需要相關的支持那我想我就簡單來這邊許願我想後續有沒有什麼機會透過證券期貨周邊對各個基層體育單位的支持還可以有更積極的做法我先給予你們現在所做的事情給予肯定那我相信後續應該還有更多我們可以一起討論可以推進的事情好不好是"},{"start":15256.281,"end":15281.057,"text":"有委員的肯定他們應該會更賣力啊謝謝主委謝謝謝謝主席謝謝佩儀委員來送卵接著請徐滬葵委員質詢謝謝主席有請彭主委請彭主委學員好主委好主委我想"},{"start":15283.427,"end":15299.022,"text":"這個從去年這個我自己的服務處就接到很多的這個陳情案件那尤其是很多這個七八十歲的長輩到服務處哭哭啼啼說他們真的被這個主任公司這個逼到要把這個保險"},{"start":15300.183,"end":15321.984,"text":"這個好不容易這個期滿的保險要解約要來償還他們的債務這個實在是我們聽了都很心酸所以我想本席也特別提出了一個保險法一個修正草案就希望能夠讓我們的主管機關體會到現在民間很多的鄉親很多的這個長輩遭逢到的一個困境"},{"start":15322.705,"end":15350.196,"text":"那主委我想請教一下這次保險法修法的核心當然我們是希望能夠保障這個所謂的一個人身的一個保障跟一個尊嚴的生活主委認同這個說法嗎那當然我自己交保險交了一輩子我當然知道這是最基本的好主委那但是這個課堂上的部分跟事務上我想你自己擔任這個經管委主委之後應該也發現有很多事務上的問題必須要解決嗎"},{"start":15350.856,"end":15366.937,"text":"當然當然就是說我們是要遇到問題我們就要把它務實的解決好主委那我想我們還是強調這次的修法的目的是真的要保障債務人跟家庭的基本的安全生活不是為了減輕我們執行機關跟保險業者的一個行政負擔"},{"start":15367.918,"end":15396.628,"text":"那主委我們在這個112年到113年之間被扣押的保險契約高達123萬件其中七成七成是所謂的健康險跟傷害險那過去我剛提到的過去很多長輩他們保了20年的保險30年的保險就是為了以後這個不要造成這個子女的負擔有一個深厚的部分能夠做處理但是問題是這些的一個保障"},{"start":15397.228,"end":15402.238,"text":"到最後就被任意的一個扣押解約這樣子合理嗎我想這是確實一個兩難的問題如果委員你問我剛剛有委員問說"},{"start":15407.478,"end":15426.765,"text":"有人支持有人反對我說我如果站在是一個教保險學的老師來看的話我是比較持有條件的反對說啦因為我教這麼多年過去這一向不是個問題剛剛委員點到就是我們從那個大法庭的裁示以後開始成為這個內容所以我們剛剛看到比如說健康險跟傷害險"},{"start":15427.645,"end":15445.552,"text":"就以社會成本角度來看他其實沒有這個實意你去解他沒有意義雙輸剛剛委員提到就是說我們對處理這個我們有三個很主要的要件第一個維持基本的社會保障功能第一個第二個用最低的社會成本第三個橫貧債權債務人的權益這三個是我們解決這個問題所以剛剛提到就是說"},{"start":15450.574,"end":15475.768,"text":"我們也認同第一個就要保障國人的最低的生活要求就保障需求所以我們才第一個就先把健康障礙直接把它排除再來我們針對那個一定額度的部分呢再把它排除希望能夠但是當然這額度是多少我們在對社會溝通的時候就有完全不一樣的看法所以我們就提出這個方案當然我覺得能希望大家得到一個共識所以我們是態度是開放的"},{"start":15475.848,"end":15504.748,"text":"主委我想我非常支持您的目前你們提出的一個方向但是剛剛我們很多的立委同仁大家都有提到這個我們現在目前用這個每月生活費的這個1.2倍乘以3個月這個基準那我自己個人是覺得說我們恐怕是低估了這樣的一個部分那尤其我們目前依財政部的公告113年我們全年的基本生活費是20萬2千元那半年大概是10萬左右"},{"start":15505.248,"end":15534.475,"text":"那六都的部分大概是估到八萬四到十一萬四那我自己個人認為這樣子算下來我說實在的不要說在六都連在鄉下這個生活都非常的吃緊所以我自己個人我主張啦解約金跟保險的金額部分應該是要拉高到三十萬這部分我想這部分是可以來討論的那我想這部分應該是這樣才能夠具體保障他們的生活這部分主委能不能說明一下"},{"start":15535.115,"end":15557.472,"text":"其實剛剛委員提到就是說至於額度的部分我們都尊重大院的這個共識啦這個我們持開放態度剛剛有提到其實有一點我要特別強調我們這個的修法的版本如果委員有注意到的話跟過去我們在司法體系強制執行不一樣我們是一張一張單一張一張單來算比如說剛剛講假設我今天買了五張保單每張七萬"},{"start":15559.83,"end":15581.081,"text":"7535我就35萬的意思就是說我過去可能就像我自己我過去買了非常多的保單那這樣他一張一張不是統合來算所以某種程度也紓解了剛才大家說額度比較低的概念而且照顧到不是每個人都跟你行情那麼好不是因為不是行情好是因為你期間久了以後尤其比如說像我們年紀大了歷年來"},{"start":15582.242,"end":15606.975,"text":"就會買比較多嗎或者是說我們的考量點有很多剛剛委員提到我們覺得都是可以來討論的所以我還是要提議啦因為像我們接到的案子我自己接到的案子裡面有個當事人他繳了40萬的保費結果時間到了他的價值是60萬的人壽保險的一個價值但是就是因為被逼到要解約最後只有拿到30萬"},{"start":15608.836,"end":15629.835,"text":"不但沒有六十萬的保障還要損失十萬塊這樣子情何以堪所以在這邊我想主委我們不能讓保險制度成為資產清算的提款機這樣對我們整個保險制度的這個信任基礎是有很大的影響那我們也支持好的修法方向那也請主委這邊我們大家一起來努力是謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好我們先去許富奎委員謝謝"},{"start":15634.025,"end":15662.512,"text":"接下來請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在現在請何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員不在我們再請王宏威委員王宏威委員王宏威委員不在張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員不在鄭振淳委員鄭振淳委員鄭振淳委員不在王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員不在徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在"},{"start":15664.738,"end":15688.544,"text":"我們今日登記發言的委員均已詢答完畢我們現在處理臨時提案共議案那麼為臨時提案的委員我們人數要表決人數不足我們來要處理嗎好那麼請議事人員宣讀我們臨時提案"},{"start":15689.665,"end":15717.901,"text":"鑑於司法程序需有特定犯罪嫌疑人後才能對犯罪所得或證據進行扣押程序但虛擬貨幣作為詐騙集團移轉犯罪所得的工具一旦移轉至境外將難以追回請金管會協調司法機關法務部司法院未來以追蹤金流為優先確認詐欺入境後儘速向境內外的實名制虛幣交易所核發扣押裁定"},{"start":15718.601,"end":15722.124,"text":"提案人 莊嘉賓 賴會員 李坤澄 宣讀完畢"},{"start":15768.08,"end":15777.023,"text":"那我們針對今天的臨時提案請我們今晚會是不是就這個提案提出你的看法 同意啊 OK 好"},{"start":15788.447,"end":15810.004,"text":"嘉賓要不要做一下提案說明提案說明一下謝謝 謝謝主席那其實這個提案內容呢其實在昨天的院會跟今天的委員會都有跟我們的監管會主委還有包括來自司法院以及法務部的代表進行溝通那我再重述一遍因為整個司法在我們最近"},{"start":15812.029,"end":15833.607,"text":"這幾年來國人非常關切的打詐、主詐尤其是追回受詐的金額的需求上因為我們數位金融的發展使得這個贓款或詐款的移轉非常的迅速有時候很快的移轉到國外去那麼未來可能被詐團所使用的這些通路跟工具包括虛擬貨幣的交易都可能成為詐團運用的管道"},{"start":15835.689,"end":15855.575,"text":"那麼我們過去大部分的司法程序在對特定犯罪嫌疑人必須有特定犯罪嫌疑人才能對犯罪所得或證據進行扣押程序但是呢 虛幣啊 作為一個詐騙集團 依照犯罪所得的工具呢一旦依照到境外就很難追回所以呢 我們那時候是希望說 怎麼樣來啟動這個阻止這樣的一個受詐的詐款"},{"start":15856.215,"end":15873.942,"text":"那麼移到其他國家或者透過虛幣的交易移到過去那我們希望未來能夠請金管會能夠來協調包括相關司法機關譬如說法務部或司法院那麼在追蹤金流為優先到確認詐款的流通的路徑之後就能迅速地向我們境內外"},{"start":15874.93,"end":15901.424,"text":"的實名制的虛幣交易所來向他核發扣押裁定那因為這個是一個新型態的犯罪需要在我們司法實務上跟程序上的予以配合那我知道經管會主委一再宣示就是只要有助於打詐阻詐的我們行政機關都全力去推動那麼希望這個案子能夠得到包括我們行政院包括經管會包括法務部以及司法院在實務上的支持那麼能夠讓未來的阻詐"},{"start":15903.165,"end":15908.41,"text":"跟追回受詐的損失金流能夠予以實現來減低我們受詐民眾的經濟財產的損失 以上好 我們謝謝鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":15935.758,"end":15942.123,"text":"他有那麼不開放,明明有一段他就做了,那我一出來就看到了"},{"start":15999.79,"end":15999.81,"text":"好"},{"start":16142.08,"end":16142.1,"text":"謝謝觀看"},{"start":16236.374,"end":16236.394,"text":"老闆"},{"start":16316.169,"end":16342.059,"text":"有話跟你們講"},{"start":16366.474,"end":16367.555,"text":"好 坤仔 OK"},{"start":16368.732,"end":16391.398,"text":"提案內容不能了解啊那請問我們在場委員對於我們提案有沒有意義沒有意義啊那剛才我也問過我們行政部門也沒有意見啊主委沒意見啊OK好我們就照案通過啊好好來來來趕快趕快趕快趕快趕快趕快趕快趕快"},{"start":16399.025,"end":16399.326,"text":"到前面來"},{"start":16407.927,"end":16434.881,"text":"先跟委員說聲不好意思因為剛剛在跟其他的司處了解因為這不是我們法治市的主管業務那我剛剛有申詢了台高檢以及檢察司的相關承辦人那大概目前得到的訊息是基本上我們都尊重委員的提案的內容但是希望做一些文字上的小小的修正那請委員這邊來考量第一個是說我們目前的司法程序是不需要有特定的犯罪嫌疑人才可以進行扣押程序的"},{"start":16435.501,"end":16444.371,"text":"那這邊可能委員文上可能會有一點誤會是建議第一行的部分是到第二行的部分可以刪除不過虛擬貨幣的扣押確實是我們目前實務執行的一個痛點那不過在涉及個案的狀況底下"},{"start":16450.738,"end":16466.216,"text":"監管會比較沒有立場去協調司法機關主動去核發扣押裁定那我們這邊是建議是不是可以變成是他們以協助的立場而且是協助所謂的扣押裁定的執行"},{"start":16467.157,"end":16495.814,"text":"因為這是我們真正的痛點我們申請到扣押裁定之後事實上對於境外的這些Vasper業者我們如何讓他能夠協助我們去落實這個扣押裁定尤其是在他在國內沒有設分支機構或是需要設好分支機構我們才能去溝通的場合裡面我想儘管會不會有這樣的一個高度啦那以上是一點修正的建議那我們會尊重委員的判斷法務部你是法 司法對你是不是把修正的文字競速"},{"start":16497.284,"end":16502.03,"text":"你現在提出來給我們啊對啊 現在提出來給我們現在給我們修正"},{"start":16503.092,"end":16526.958,"text":"是 那我們這邊就建議我們從前面從第二行就直接開始了就從虛擬貨幣作為詐騙集團移轉犯罪所得失工具逗點一旦移轉至境外將難以追回據點請金管會協助司法機關後面就瓜虎法務部以及斜線司法院"},{"start":16527.478,"end":16543.523,"text":"未來以追蹤金流為優先確認詐欺入境後儘速向境內外的實名制虛幣交易所核發扣押裁定之執行那不知道委員這樣修改是不是能符合您的意思"},{"start":16546.651,"end":16565.39,"text":"我再附送一次我們做文字修正虛擬貨幣作為詐騙集團移轉犯罪所得之工具一旦移轉至境外將難以追回請經管會協助 括弧法務部司法院未來以追蹤金流為優先"},{"start":16567.792,"end":16593.232,"text":"確認債款入境後 儘速向境內外的實名制虛擬交易所核發扣押裁定之執行之執行喔好 這樣鑑於最前面那兩字保留鑑於虛擬貨幣喔 好 那個但改成鑑於啦好 各位沒有意見喔 那個主委 也沒意見"},{"start":16594.629,"end":16621.842,"text":"好那我們就依照修正後的版本通過好本日會議做如下的決議說明及答詢完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定委員徐欣穎所提書面質詢均列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆"},{"start":16623.968,"end":16638.94,"text":"保險法部分條文修正草案第15案等15案令擇期繼續審查請問各位委員對以上決議有異議沒有異議我們今日的會議程進行完畢我們現在散會"},{"start":16647.112,"end":16647.352,"text":"剪刀"}]}},{"id":"16631","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16631","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d001fad9b8cd413af4f0709a7fb2e7483f7d7f547ae197440a5c224dd7e975a9e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-30T08:31:19+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:37:00+08:00","duration":11141,"影片長度":"03:05:41","委員發言時間":"08:31:19 - 11:37:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":470.10096875000005,"end":473.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":494.16471875,"end":494.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1736.2828437500002,"end":1747.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1747.03221875,"end":1747.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1748.8209687500002,"end":1766.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1766.7422187500001,"end":1782.5203437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1782.7228437500003,"end":1787.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1788.2747187500001,"end":1797.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1799.05784375,"end":1816.9959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1817.5359687500002,"end":1822.9359687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1824.67409375,"end":1826.5472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1826.8678437500002,"end":1832.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1833.2128437500003,"end":1840.0472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1840.0640937500002,"end":1843.1184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1843.3884687500001,"end":1853.4628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1853.6990937500002,"end":1856.2472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1858.6265937500002,"end":1858.6434687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1858.6434687500002,"end":1859.5040937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1859.9259687500003,"end":1864.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1865.29221875,"end":1865.6128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1866.8109687500003,"end":1869.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1870.0172187500002,"end":1870.7259687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1870.8609687500002,"end":1889.1197187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1873.5609687500003,"end":1874.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1874.03346875,"end":1874.8434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1874.8434687500003,"end":1874.9615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1892.30909375,"end":1893.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1895.5997187500002,"end":1901.4722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1903.4972187500002,"end":1907.3784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1909.6734687500002,"end":1912.9134687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1914.5672187500002,"end":1917.9422187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1918.4147187500002,"end":1919.5622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1920.2540937500003,"end":1925.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1925.6709687500002,"end":1929.8728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1930.41284375,"end":1935.2222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1935.62721875,"end":1940.3353437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1941.66846875,"end":1950.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1951.2028437500003,"end":1951.4053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1952.6034687500003,"end":1956.5522187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1956.72096875,"end":1961.4459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1962.05346875,"end":1962.2390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1962.3065937500003,"end":1962.3909687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1962.5090937500001,"end":1973.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1974.3890937500003,"end":1978.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1979.1309687500002,"end":1983.0797187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1984.0922187500003,"end":1984.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1985.8640937500002,"end":1990.6903437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1996.8328437500002,"end":2007.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2009.8265937500003,"end":2017.6565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2018.4834687500002,"end":2030.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2031.0384687500002,"end":2031.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2033.3165937500003,"end":2048.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2049.85409375,"end":2056.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2056.70534375,"end":2057.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2058.46034375,"end":2071.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2072.1628437500003,"end":2075.5378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2075.94284375,"end":2085.6797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2086.96221875,"end":2090.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2091.41721875,"end":2107.0603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2108.24159375,"end":2117.3203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2117.8434687500003,"end":2127.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2127.93471875,"end":2136.0684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2136.81096875,"end":2159.0859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2160.18284375,"end":2170.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2172.2653437500003,"end":2180.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2180.5340937500005,"end":2184.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2185.1747187500005,"end":2190.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2191.51971875,"end":2204.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2204.9353437500004,"end":2212.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2214.13221875,"end":2223.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2224.5778437500003,"end":2225.9615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2226.4509687500004,"end":2231.0409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2231.8172187500004,"end":2238.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2239.37721875,"end":2241.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2242.95471875,"end":2256.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2256.1003437500003,"end":2257.3828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2258.0409687500005,"end":2285.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2285.8340937500006,"end":2296.8028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2296.9715937500005,"end":2300.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2301.17346875,"end":2314.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2315.63534375,"end":2339.2772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2340.03659375,"end":2344.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2345.50409375,"end":2349.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2349.8747187500003,"end":2372.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2373.7022187500006,"end":2394.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2395.40346875,"end":2406.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2407.5028437500005,"end":2408.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2408.68409375,"end":2412.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2412.4472187500005,"end":2417.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2418.4715937500005,"end":2428.2422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2429.0859687500006,"end":2429.6765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2429.9128437500003,"end":2432.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2432.5790937500005,"end":2443.4128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2444.4422187500004,"end":2455.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2456.96346875,"end":2460.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2460.81096875,"end":2474.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2476.28534375,"end":2485.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2486.2247187500006,"end":2497.7165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2498.1553437500006,"end":2527.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2528.0915937500004,"end":2529.1715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2529.22221875,"end":2533.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2534.6053437500004,"end":2535.2128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2535.34784375,"end":2536.9509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2537.45721875,"end":2550.8222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2551.07534375,"end":2561.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2564.15346875,"end":2601.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2606.8809687500006,"end":2608.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2609.71596875,"end":2611.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2615.4872187500005,"end":2615.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2615.50409375,"end":2616.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2617.61346875,"end":2666.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2666.1797187500006,"end":2695.2890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2689.65284375,"end":2690.0915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2694.46221875,"end":2724.4490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2725.49534375,"end":2728.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2728.02659375,"end":2732.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2732.66721875,"end":2738.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2739.8897187500006,"end":2747.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2748.34409375,"end":2757.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2748.41159375,"end":2750.3015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2751.90471875,"end":2753.0690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2754.1659687500005,"end":2755.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2755.98846875,"end":2756.5115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2756.54534375,"end":2773.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2771.66534375,"end":2781.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2781.0309687500003,"end":2781.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2781.73971875,"end":2783.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2781.7565937500003,"end":2788.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2788.72596875,"end":2798.2772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2798.90159375,"end":2802.0740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2802.0740937500004,"end":2802.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2802.4959687500004,"end":2835.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2835.67221875,"end":2852.0915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2850.67409375,"end":2852.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2852.5809687500005,"end":2853.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2853.08721875,"end":2853.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2853.86346875,"end":2853.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2853.9647187500004,"end":2855.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2855.02784375,"end":2855.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2855.97284375,"end":2856.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2856.0234687500006,"end":2856.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2856.9684687500003,"end":2857.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2857.0359687500004,"end":2857.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2857.23846875,"end":2923.5065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2857.30596875,"end":2858.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2858.6053437500004,"end":2858.7909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2858.7909687500005,"end":2858.8415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2924.0634687500005,"end":2935.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2935.7578437500006,"end":2935.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2935.77471875,"end":2936.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2935.84221875,"end":2936.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2937.88409375,"end":2939.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2939.08221875,"end":2950.5065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2950.8272187500006,"end":2952.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2952.7340937500003,"end":2964.1247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2958.7078437500004,"end":2960.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2964.1247187500003,"end":2975.5153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2975.92034375,"end":2988.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2987.6484687500006,"end":3009.7715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2994.65159375,"end":2994.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2994.66846875,"end":2994.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3010.3115937500006,"end":3026.7647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3026.7647187500006,"end":3037.2440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3037.4803437500004,"end":3044.6690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3043.58909375,"end":3045.1922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3045.3778437500005,"end":3049.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3049.25909375,"end":3082.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3049.91721875,"end":3050.2715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3053.78159375,"end":3054.1865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3076.9678437500006,"end":3077.2715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3078.55409375,"end":3078.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3081.81096875,"end":3085.3884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3085.3884687500004,"end":3161.6465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3161.96721875,"end":3169.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3169.9997187500003,"end":3170.8097187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3172.4128437500003,"end":3179.4665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3185.10284375,"end":3186.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3188.0222187500003,"end":3189.6759687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3190.7390937500004,"end":3191.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3191.7178437500006,"end":3234.2090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3191.73471875,"end":3191.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3234.8503437500003,"end":3244.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3243.55784375,"end":3287.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3288.46221875,"end":3288.9178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3289.6434687500005,"end":3289.7615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3289.7615937500004,"end":3291.1622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3291.1622187500006,"end":3296.2078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3291.48284375,"end":3291.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3296.7647187500006,"end":3310.8553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3310.2647187500006,"end":3359.9109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3360.31596875,"end":3380.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3379.6209687500004,"end":3389.4928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3390.85971875,"end":3393.1209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3393.1378437500007,"end":3397.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3400.14096875,"end":3401.2547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3401.35596875,"end":3406.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3403.02659375,"end":3403.0603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3403.0603437500004,"end":3403.4822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3406.70534375,"end":3411.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3411.97034375,"end":3416.4928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3415.76721875,"end":3420.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3419.5134687500004,"end":3422.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3424.6434687500005,"end":3426.2128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3426.2128437500005,"end":3453.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3454.39409375,"end":3454.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3455.4572187500007,"end":3461.6503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3458.71409375,"end":3515.4140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3515.85284375,"end":3523.5984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3523.4297187500006,"end":3539.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3541.77284375,"end":3544.1015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3544.1015937500006,"end":3556.3359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3557.9728437500007,"end":3567.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3567.76034375,"end":3638.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3640.42409375,"end":3662.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3662.8340937500006,"end":3665.1628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3665.8884687500004,"end":3670.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3670.91721875,"end":3673.1953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3673.27971875,"end":3675.1190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3674.71409375,"end":3704.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3704.7684687500005,"end":3706.7597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3706.3884687500004,"end":3706.4053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3706.4053437500006,"end":3712.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3712.3622187500005,"end":3731.8359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3723.4490937500004,"end":3723.4659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3723.4659687500007,"end":3723.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3723.9384687500005,"end":3724.4109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3729.27096875,"end":3729.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3731.9372187500003,"end":3739.4972187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3737.3203437500006,"end":3755.4440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3740.1384687500004,"end":3740.4422187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3749.4872187500005,"end":3749.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3749.52096875,"end":3749.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3752.2547187500004,"end":3752.9972187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3754.9209687500006,"end":3763.2740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3762.9872187500005,"end":3783.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3785.7009687500004,"end":3791.7422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3805.7653437500003,"end":3806.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3805.9678437500006,"end":3808.2628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3810.5915937500004,"end":3810.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3810.9628437500005,"end":3811.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3811.72221875,"end":3813.0215937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3813.3084687500004,"end":3866.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3867.27471875,"end":3893.2453437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3891.74346875,"end":3906.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3906.8465937500005,"end":3912.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3912.01034375,"end":3952.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3953.8097187500007,"end":3994.5290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3994.4953437500008,"end":4004.2322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4005.0422187500008,"end":4013.2940937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4014.1209687500004,"end":4042.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4043.98971875,"end":4047.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4047.6347187500005,"end":4067.2097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4067.4122187500006,"end":4071.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4068.5597187500007,"end":4069.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4070.0447187500004,"end":4100.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4090.7840937500005,"end":4091.2565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4100.97659375,"end":4130.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4131.94221875,"end":4141.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4142.97846875,"end":4150.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4150.65659375,"end":4174.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4172.340968750001,"end":4173.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4174.534718749999,"end":4179.833468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4179.749093750001,"end":4184.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4184.22096875,"end":4223.100968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4184.50784375,"end":4186.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4223.472218749999,"end":4257.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4260.29346875,"end":4294.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4295.005343750001,"end":4331.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4331.50596875,"end":4355.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4355.60346875,"end":4356.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4357.47659375,"end":4361.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4378.60409375,"end":4380.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4381.253468749999,"end":4384.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4393.217843750001,"end":4397.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4397.9090937500005,"end":4399.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4401.739718750001,"end":4402.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4402.93784375,"end":4493.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4493.92784375,"end":4495.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4495.733468750001,"end":4514.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4514.63346875,"end":4543.439093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4545.548468749999,"end":4548.552218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4549.09221875,"end":4552.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4553.1590937500005,"end":4553.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4554.407843749999,"end":4558.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4558.87971875,"end":4559.757218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4561.343468749999,"end":4561.815968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4561.815968749999,"end":4561.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4561.90034375,"end":4561.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4561.950968749999,"end":4561.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4562.288468750001,"end":4562.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4562.96346875,"end":4570.017218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4570.28721875,"end":4570.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4570.911593750001,"end":4613.284718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4613.82471875,"end":4614.044093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4614.044093750001,"end":4627.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4624.37159375,"end":4625.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4627.42596875,"end":4631.526593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4631.86409375,"end":4641.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4639.7615937499995,"end":4641.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4641.9384687500005,"end":4643.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4642.208468750001,"end":4646.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4647.38909375,"end":4650.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4650.84846875,"end":4654.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4654.4090937500005,"end":4659.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4654.79721875,"end":4656.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4658.3240937499995,"end":4658.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4660.0115937499995,"end":4660.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4660.80471875,"end":4662.593468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4661.614718750001,"end":4661.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4662.593468749999,"end":4673.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4669.7147187499995,"end":4669.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4672.110968749999,"end":4673.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4673.68034375,"end":4679.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4676.44784375,"end":4683.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4684.42971875,"end":4686.404093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4686.8934687500005,"end":4688.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4686.99471875,"end":4687.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4687.062218749999,"end":4687.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4688.96909375,"end":4690.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4690.60596875,"end":4692.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4691.466593749999,"end":4691.702843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4693.154093749999,"end":4693.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4694.993468750001,"end":4696.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4696.93409375,"end":4698.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4698.368468750001,"end":4698.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4699.41471875,"end":4700.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4699.684718750001,"end":4699.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4700.798468749999,"end":4710.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4707.2615937499995,"end":4708.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4710.95721875,"end":4792.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4794.35346875,"end":4797.407843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4797.407843749999,"end":4799.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4799.669093750001,"end":4799.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4800.175343750001,"end":4861.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4861.36409375,"end":4862.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4863.54096875,"end":4870.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4865.009093750001,"end":4865.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4865.02596875,"end":4865.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4865.059718750001,"end":4865.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4865.07659375,"end":4865.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4868.7215937500005,"end":4869.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4870.61159375,"end":4900.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4901.003468750001,"end":4906.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4906.79159375,"end":4964.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4965.19596875,"end":4981.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4978.864718750001,"end":4979.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4979.87721875,"end":4980.079718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4981.109093749999,"end":5008.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5008.41284375,"end":5014.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5014.673468749999,"end":5017.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5014.774718750001,"end":5015.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5017.727843750001,"end":5019.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5018.50409375,"end":5022.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5022.38534375,"end":5022.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5022.62159375,"end":5026.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5026.030343750001,"end":5050.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5027.65034375,"end":5029.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5048.50784375,"end":5048.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5048.6259687500005,"end":5048.895968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5049.233468750001,"end":5052.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5052.57471875,"end":5058.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5061.85596875,"end":5061.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5061.872843749999,"end":5062.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5063.762843750001,"end":5075.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5074.259093750001,"end":5074.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5075.474093750001,"end":5090.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5090.374718749999,"end":5090.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5091.20159375,"end":5091.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5092.78784375,"end":5097.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5097.698468750001,"end":5143.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5143.14284375,"end":5157.452843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5157.16596875,"end":5162.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5159.59596875,"end":5159.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5162.009093750001,"end":5162.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5162.430968750001,"end":5167.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5167.47659375,"end":5194.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5168.13471875,"end":5168.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5194.206593750001,"end":5196.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5195.45534375,"end":5199.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5198.526593750001,"end":5198.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5199.825968749999,"end":5206.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5206.305968750001,"end":5206.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5207.014718750001,"end":5230.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5230.18409375,"end":5255.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5255.091593749999,"end":5260.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5261.470343749999,"end":5262.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5264.06909375,"end":5266.718468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5275.98284375,"end":5280.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5280.52221875,"end":5282.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5283.880343750001,"end":5285.702843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5287.60971875,"end":5288.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5288.21721875,"end":5288.234093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5288.335343750001,"end":5289.314093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5290.41096875,"end":5293.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5293.38096875,"end":5294.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5295.70971875,"end":5332.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5332.66596875,"end":5391.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5392.84221875,"end":5415.876593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5416.56846875,"end":5470.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5427.4697187500005,"end":5427.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5470.956593750001,"end":5474.2303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5474.82096875,"end":5570.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5571.734093749999,"end":5580.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5580.91409375,"end":5583.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5583.225968750001,"end":5583.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5583.310343749999,"end":5583.462218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5583.44534375,"end":5583.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5583.4959687499995,"end":5583.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5584.204718749999,"end":5587.343468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5586.9384687500005,"end":5588.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5588.54159375,"end":5590.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5589.317843750001,"end":5590.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5590.347218750001,"end":5603.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5593.57034375,"end":5595.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5603.40846875,"end":5603.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5603.83034375,"end":5619.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5611.13721875,"end":5611.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5620.33409375,"end":5638.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5621.4647187499995,"end":5622.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5638.592843750001,"end":5639.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5639.335343750001,"end":5658.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5659.23096875,"end":5660.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5662.31909375,"end":5685.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5682.130343750001,"end":5682.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5686.3153437500005,"end":5693.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5692.2215937500005,"end":5693.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5693.942843750001,"end":5694.415343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5694.9384687500005,"end":5802.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5802.95534375,"end":5803.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5803.866593750001,"end":5809.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5810.02596875,"end":5848.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5820.977843750001,"end":5821.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5834.1572187500005,"end":5834.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5848.905968749999,"end":5851.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5851.57221875,"end":5851.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5851.6903437500005,"end":5865.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5851.8084687499995,"end":5852.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5866.18596875,"end":5880.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5884.7147187499995,"end":5886.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5887.17846875,"end":5888.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5891.515343749999,"end":5892.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5892.274718750001,"end":5892.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5892.510968750001,"end":5892.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5892.544718749999,"end":5892.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5892.747218750001,"end":5981.3240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5983.51784375,"end":6020.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6020.609093749999,"end":6029.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6028.776593750001,"end":6032.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6032.657843750001,"end":6055.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6054.44346875,"end":6098.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6057.02534375,"end":6057.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6096.90096875,"end":6104.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6103.482218749999,"end":6133.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6133.587218750001,"end":6142.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6144.1678437499995,"end":6153.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6153.263468749999,"end":6154.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6153.280343750001,"end":6153.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6155.609093749999,"end":6156.452843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6156.452843749999,"end":6158.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6159.10221875,"end":6178.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6179.149718750001,"end":6186.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6187.485968750001,"end":6194.843468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6194.151593750001,"end":6196.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6194.843468749999,"end":6194.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6196.395968750001,"end":6258.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6258.81659375,"end":6258.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6258.90096875,"end":6259.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6259.019093750001,"end":6259.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6259.94721875,"end":6260.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6260.87534375,"end":6261.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6261.76971875,"end":6298.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6297.224093750001,"end":6323.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6323.4647187499995,"end":6336.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6336.137843750001,"end":6339.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6340.997843749999,"end":6348.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6349.013468749999,"end":6363.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6363.880343750001,"end":6383.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6384.06284375,"end":6392.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6391.57221875,"end":6393.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6393.10784375,"end":6423.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6424.00596875,"end":6424.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6424.073468750001,"end":6424.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6424.680968750001,"end":6424.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6424.967843750001,"end":6425.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6425.0184687500005,"end":6425.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6425.03534375,"end":6425.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6425.17034375,"end":6425.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6425.30534375,"end":6426.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6429.15284375,"end":6432.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6433.118468750001,"end":6435.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6443.429093750001,"end":6443.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6444.34034375,"end":6445.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6446.78721875,"end":6448.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6451.09034375,"end":6451.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6452.87909375,"end":6475.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6472.99409375,"end":6473.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6475.019093750001,"end":6476.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6477.82034375,"end":6516.734093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6516.80159375,"end":6519.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6519.552218750001,"end":6519.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6519.602843750001,"end":6519.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6519.77159375,"end":6523.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6523.78784375,"end":6525.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6526.251593750001,"end":6539.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6536.764718750001,"end":6537.220343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6537.7772187499995,"end":6538.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6538.587218750001,"end":6551.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6551.22659375,"end":6553.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6553.75784375,"end":6602.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6603.0497187500005,"end":6633.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6633.9647187499995,"end":6668.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6668.811593750001,"end":6673.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6673.030343750001,"end":6685.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6685.3153437500005,"end":6692.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6691.812218749999,"end":6692.234093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6692.234093749999,"end":6692.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6692.2509687500005,"end":6694.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6694.022843750001,"end":6730.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6730.860968750001,"end":6767.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6767.749718749999,"end":6773.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6775.259093750001,"end":6781.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6779.342843750001,"end":6780.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6781.09784375,"end":6783.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6784.253468750001,"end":6788.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6787.1053437499995,"end":6789.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6790.37909375,"end":6794.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6795.0028437500005,"end":6796.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6797.31471875,"end":6810.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6810.696593750001,"end":6820.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6810.932843750001,"end":6810.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6810.966593749999,"end":6811.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6816.602843750001,"end":6816.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6817.59846875,"end":6817.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6817.85159375,"end":6818.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6818.02034375,"end":6818.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":6818.560343749999,"end":6819.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6820.56846875,"end":6833.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6833.88284375,"end":6846.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6839.58659375,"end":6840.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6840.042218750001,"end":6840.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6840.63284375,"end":6840.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6845.8134687500005,"end":6865.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6865.84409375,"end":6894.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6894.53159375,"end":6901.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6901.905968749999,"end":6906.360968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6906.4959687499995,"end":6922.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6922.84784375,"end":6928.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6928.80471875,"end":6932.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6932.854718750001,"end":6936.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6936.24659375,"end":6936.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6937.073468750001,"end":6959.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6959.87159375,"end":6991.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6991.765343750001,"end":7009.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7002.177218750001,"end":7003.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7010.22659375,"end":7015.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7015.305968750001,"end":7033.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7038.036593750001,"end":7045.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7051.6884687500005,"end":7053.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7053.6122187500005,"end":7055.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7056.19409375,"end":7058.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7061.02034375,"end":7061.610968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7061.610968750001,"end":7061.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7066.18409375,"end":7068.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7068.20909375,"end":7098.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7098.34784375,"end":7101.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7102.347218750001,"end":7104.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7106.1103437500005,"end":7111.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7111.679093750001,"end":7116.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7116.43784375,"end":7132.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7125.39846875,"end":7125.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7127.08596875,"end":7127.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7132.6884687500005,"end":7150.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7140.80534375,"end":7141.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":7150.592843750001,"end":7150.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7150.964093750001,"end":7159.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7160.093468750001,"end":7162.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7163.620343750001,"end":7164.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7164.80159375,"end":7176.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7176.124718750001,"end":7179.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7177.440968750001,"end":7177.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7179.4490937499995,"end":7200.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7179.9384687500005,"end":7180.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7201.909718750001,"end":7212.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7213.485968750001,"end":7216.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7216.439093750001,"end":7217.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7218.936593750001,"end":7295.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7295.68409375,"end":7303.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7304.17221875,"end":7310.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7310.50034375,"end":7367.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7368.837218750001,"end":7386.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7386.8934687500005,"end":7401.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7401.3553437499995,"end":7435.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7403.481593750001,"end":7403.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7404.44346875,"end":7405.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7433.55284375,"end":7463.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7463.3709687499995,"end":7509.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7509.692843750001,"end":7542.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7543.341593749999,"end":7555.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7555.677218750001,"end":7591.485968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7591.73909375,"end":7604.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7604.108468750001,"end":7609.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7610.655968750001,"end":7617.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7623.514718750001,"end":7626.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7626.889718750001,"end":7628.712218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7633.403468750001,"end":7737.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7737.842843750001,"end":7833.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7833.929093750001,"end":7835.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7835.751593750001,"end":7872.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7873.33221875,"end":7878.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7879.120343750001,"end":7921.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7922.2528437500005,"end":7989.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7989.9384687500005,"end":8000.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8000.198468750001,"end":8000.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8000.249093750001,"end":8001.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8000.26596875,"end":8002.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8002.13909375,"end":8014.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8014.03596875,"end":8018.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8016.0272187499995,"end":8021.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8021.59596875,"end":8022.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8023.33409375,"end":8041.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8040.02346875,"end":8050.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8041.356593750001,"end":8041.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8048.747843750001,"end":8048.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8049.43971875,"end":8055.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8054.08034375,"end":8059.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8055.86909375,"end":8056.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8056.5947187500005,"end":8057.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8058.029093750001,"end":8071.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8071.46159375,"end":8071.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8072.5584687499995,"end":8080.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8079.02159375,"end":8080.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8081.40096875,"end":8085.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8084.82659375,"end":8084.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8084.843468750001,"end":8086.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8086.24409375,"end":8092.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8087.847218750001,"end":8090.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8092.42034375,"end":8100.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8099.389718750001,"end":8106.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8103.94596875,"end":8108.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8107.92846875,"end":8110.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8110.206593750001,"end":8112.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8111.50596875,"end":8114.560343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8115.62346875,"end":8123.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8122.204718750001,"end":8127.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8124.8709687499995,"end":8137.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8127.57096875,"end":8127.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8137.88159375,"end":8145.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8145.0028437500005,"end":8145.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8145.036593750001,"end":8146.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8146.13346875,"end":8149.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8146.15034375,"end":8148.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8149.23846875,"end":8149.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8149.778468750001,"end":8152.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8149.8290937500005,"end":8157.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8153.052218750001,"end":8154.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8157.57471875,"end":8159.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8159.937218750001,"end":8160.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8160.49409375,"end":8168.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8168.8134687500005,"end":8170.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8170.65284375,"end":8173.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8170.97346875,"end":8178.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8177.92596875,"end":8177.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8177.942843750001,"end":8179.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8178.80346875,"end":8178.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8180.4403437500005,"end":8180.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8180.5584687499995,"end":8201.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8180.575343750001,"end":8182.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8185.04721875,"end":8185.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8185.452218750001,"end":8185.485968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8190.227843750001,"end":8192.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8193.231593750003,"end":8194.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8201.83784375,"end":8219.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8202.32721875,"end":8202.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8217.852218750002,"end":8220.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8220.50159375,"end":8224.399718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8224.24784375,"end":8224.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8224.500968750002,"end":8224.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8224.652843750002,"end":8225.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8225.47971875,"end":8233.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8230.57596875,"end":8230.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8230.64346875,"end":8230.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8230.79534375,"end":8230.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8233.461593750002,"end":8239.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8239.06409375,"end":8239.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8239.469093750002,"end":8258.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8252.93534375,"end":8253.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8253.03659375,"end":8253.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8253.137843750003,"end":8253.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8253.20534375,"end":8254.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8254.15034375,"end":8254.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8254.454093750002,"end":8267.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8265.304718750001,"end":8315.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8307.239093750002,"end":8307.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8311.49159375,"end":8313.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8315.085968750001,"end":8316.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8317.195343750001,"end":8324.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8317.85346875,"end":8318.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8325.07596875,"end":8329.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8330.172218750002,"end":8332.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8333.277218750001,"end":8334.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8335.656593750002,"end":8336.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8337.42846875,"end":8338.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8339.183468750001,"end":8356.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8355.164093750001,"end":8360.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8359.93971875,"end":8380.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8380.324718750002,"end":8380.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8381.13471875,"end":8387.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8381.387843750003,"end":8382.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8383.530968750001,"end":8384.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8390.753468750001,"end":8404.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8410.581593750001,"end":8412.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8413.36596875,"end":8415.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8418.42846875,"end":8528.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8528.672843750002,"end":8540.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8542.223468750002,"end":8582.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8583.870968750001,"end":8614.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8614.465343750002,"end":8623.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8614.48221875,"end":8614.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8621.92409375,"end":8630.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8624.10096875,"end":8624.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8630.817218750002,"end":8746.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8747.06909375,"end":8747.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8750.37659375,"end":8791.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8791.652843750002,"end":8797.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8796.69846875,"end":8809.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8800.090343750002,"end":8801.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8803.887218750002,"end":8803.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8803.97159375,"end":8804.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8805.675968750002,"end":8805.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8806.620968750001,"end":8806.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8809.75971875,"end":8813.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8812.324718750002,"end":8835.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8814.29909375,"end":8814.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8835.91596875,"end":8853.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8836.995968750001,"end":8837.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8841.87284375,"end":8844.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8844.03284375,"end":8845.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8846.294093750003,"end":8846.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8848.89284375,"end":8850.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8850.985343750002,"end":8911.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8912.07284375,"end":8928.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8928.15471875,"end":8930.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8930.753468750001,"end":8935.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8934.668468750002,"end":8934.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8935.090343750002,"end":8941.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8935.360343750002,"end":8938.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8940.91221875,"end":8941.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8941.570343750001,"end":8967.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8965.515968750002,"end":8965.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8967.152843750002,"end":8987.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8985.816593750002,"end":9001.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9002.590343750002,"end":9009.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9009.32346875,"end":9013.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9012.78284375,"end":9013.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9013.05284375,"end":9013.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9013.086593750002,"end":9015.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9013.12034375,"end":9013.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9016.42784375,"end":9030.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9039.36096875,"end":9040.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9041.976593750001,"end":9044.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9045.97596875,"end":9052.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9053.097218750001,"end":9075.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9076.317218750002,"end":9084.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9086.121593750002,"end":9104.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9104.785343750002,"end":9109.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9110.08409375,"end":9150.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9150.719093750002,"end":9224.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9225.88034375,"end":9257.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9258.16221875,"end":9339.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9339.31409375,"end":9348.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9347.19471875,"end":9350.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9350.29971875,"end":9356.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9354.957218750002,"end":9355.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9356.813468750002,"end":9367.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9363.445343750001,"end":9364.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9365.723468750002,"end":9366.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9367.37721875,"end":9367.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9367.91721875,"end":9368.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9368.33909375,"end":9369.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9368.44034375,"end":9369.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9369.503468750001,"end":9369.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9369.520343750002,"end":9369.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9369.672218750002,"end":9369.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9369.722843750002,"end":9369.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9372.675968750002,"end":9374.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9375.86534375,"end":9381.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9391.15409375,"end":9392.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9393.550343750001,"end":9396.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9399.152843750002,"end":9399.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9399.16971875,"end":9420.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9420.36471875,"end":9422.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9422.74409375,"end":9454.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9455.22846875,"end":9457.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9458.215343750002,"end":9477.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9478.95471875,"end":9508.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9507.945968750002,"end":9513.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9512.367218750001,"end":9513.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9513.582218750002,"end":9515.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9514.13909375,"end":9519.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9517.39596875,"end":9518.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9519.15096875,"end":9582.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9582.870968750001,"end":9590.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9591.004718750002,"end":9595.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9595.45971875,"end":9597.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9597.34971875,"end":9605.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9606.10784375,"end":9663.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9663.769718750002,"end":9674.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9674.82284375,"end":9677.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9678.636593750001,"end":9679.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9678.67034375,"end":9679.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9680.222843750002,"end":9693.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9692.79471875,"end":9697.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9695.207843750002,"end":9720.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9701.856593750003,"end":9701.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9701.907218750002,"end":9702.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9702.24471875,"end":9702.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9702.29534375,"end":9702.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9703.03784375,"end":9703.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9719.01846875,"end":9724.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9723.64221875,"end":9728.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9727.169093750003,"end":9734.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9734.290343750003,"end":9742.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9741.985343750002,"end":9745.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9745.59659375,"end":9750.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9751.047218750002,"end":9751.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9751.45221875,"end":9753.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9751.469093750002,"end":9752.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9752.835968750001,"end":9762.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9763.16346875,"end":9776.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9776.477843750003,"end":9778.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9778.77284375,"end":9779.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9780.22409375,"end":9782.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9782.92409375,"end":9784.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9784.35846875,"end":9786.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9787.09221875,"end":9792.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9793.065968750001,"end":9794.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9794.449718750002,"end":9804.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9804.69284375,"end":9806.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9806.70096875,"end":9807.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9807.899093750002,"end":9814.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9814.88534375,"end":9825.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9825.31409375,"end":9825.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9825.465968750003,"end":9825.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9825.48284375,"end":9826.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9825.617843750002,"end":9825.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9826.20846875,"end":9826.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9826.63034375,"end":9826.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9826.714718750001,"end":9827.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9827.035343750002,"end":9829.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9828.030968750001,"end":9828.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9829.00971875,"end":9837.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9837.312218750001,"end":9845.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9844.14659375,"end":9855.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9855.452843750001,"end":9863.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9864.24471875,"end":9882.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9882.43596875,"end":9887.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9888.308468750001,"end":9889.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9889.77659375,"end":9899.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9899.42909375,"end":9901.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9901.72409375,"end":9914.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9913.92471875,"end":9918.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9918.14346875,"end":9918.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9918.24471875,"end":9918.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9918.46409375,"end":9918.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9918.649718750003,"end":9929.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9918.66659375,"end":9918.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9918.683468750001,"end":9921.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9921.957218750002,"end":9921.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9930.242843750002,"end":9934.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9934.360343750002,"end":9943.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9938.59596875,"end":9938.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9938.64659375,"end":9938.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9943.28721875,"end":9943.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9944.738468750002,"end":9944.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9944.856593750003,"end":9944.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9944.907218750002,"end":9944.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9944.940968750001,"end":9944.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9944.99159375,"end":9945.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9945.07596875,"end":9945.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9945.109718750002,"end":9945.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9945.49784375,"end":9945.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9945.59909375,"end":9945.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9946.18971875,"end":9955.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9950.03721875,"end":9950.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9951.50534375,"end":9951.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9951.52221875,"end":9951.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9953.95221875,"end":9953.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9953.969093750002,"end":9954.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9956.196593750003,"end":9967.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9967.60409375,"end":9973.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9973.98284375,"end":9973.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9973.999718750001,"end":9975.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9978.77534375,"end":9981.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9982.926593750002,"end":9988.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9997.945343750001,"end":9999.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9999.14346875,"end":9999.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10001.23596875,"end":10003.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10004.77971875,"end":10005.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10005.758468750002,"end":10005.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10006.14659375,"end":10007.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10007.36159375,"end":10084.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10085.50971875,"end":10092.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10094.250968750002,"end":10099.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10099.094093750002,"end":10174.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10174.54221875,"end":10178.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10179.18284375,"end":10217.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10217.62409375,"end":10229.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10223.88471875,"end":10227.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10228.508468750002,"end":10228.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10229.571593750003,"end":10249.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10249.922843750002,"end":10250.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10251.137843750003,"end":10296.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10296.59909375,"end":10309.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10309.17096875,"end":10317.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10317.355343750001,"end":10323.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10323.734093750001,"end":10325.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10325.759093750003,"end":10338.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10338.70221875,"end":10423.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10424.984093750001,"end":10433.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10434.012218750002,"end":10457.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10457.063468750002,"end":10471.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10473.989093750002,"end":10491.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10496.11221875,"end":10498.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10498.57596875,"end":10501.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10502.11971875,"end":10503.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10503.31784375,"end":10515.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10516.379093750002,"end":10573.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10574.00721875,"end":10606.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10606.862843750001,"end":10622.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10622.97846875,"end":10624.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10624.497218750003,"end":10629.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10630.04909375,"end":10641.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10641.59159375,"end":10660.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10660.79534375,"end":10685.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10687.49159375,"end":10693.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10693.81971875,"end":10710.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10710.509093750003,"end":10710.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10711.504718750002,"end":10717.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10717.74846875,"end":10732.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10733.020343750002,"end":10760.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10760.52659375,"end":10764.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10765.09971875,"end":10766.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10766.80409375,"end":10768.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10769.33534375,"end":10905.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10905.53346875,"end":10954.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10929.68159375,"end":10930.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10930.305968750003,"end":10930.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10930.677218750003,"end":10930.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10954.032218750002,"end":10997.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10998.109718750002,"end":10999.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10999.375343750002,"end":11001.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11002.969718750002,"end":11005.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11005.973468750002,"end":11007.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11009.550968750002,"end":11022.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11023.65846875,"end":11049.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11050.169093750003,"end":11061.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11062.437218750001,"end":11091.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11091.411593750003,"end":11096.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11113.011593750001,"end":11113.754093750002}],"whisperx":[{"start":494.259,"end":494.3,"text":"喔喔"},{"start":1737.011,"end":1746.818,"text":"好報告委員會我們初期委員12人已足法定人數現在開會首先進行報告事項請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1748.894,"end":1765.871,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期教育及文化委員會第八次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一一四年四月二十三日上午九十三分至十二時三十五分一一四年四月二十四日上午九十二分至十二時十八分地點本案群選樓一零一會議室出席委員"},{"start":1766.852,"end":1786.427,"text":"柯志恩等15人 內席委員林德福等23人 內席人員4月23日文化部政務次長王時思 率同有關人員4月24日 核能安全委員會主任委員陳明禎 率同有關人員主席林昭吉委員 已進4月23日 報告事項一 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定 議事錄確定"},{"start":1788.388,"end":1795.874,"text":"二、文化部次長王石獅列席就熱為世界人台灣文化發展與國際能見度之突破及挑戰進行專題報告並被質詢"},{"start":1799.11,"end":1821.499,"text":"本次議程有柯智恩等18人提出質詢京津文化部政務策長王時思及相關人員及其答覆說明另有委員徐欣盈提出書面質詢決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報三 對於委員質詢提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆通過臨時提案兩項"},{"start":1824.944,"end":1846.03,"text":"4月24日報告事項核能安全委員會主任委員陳明禎列席報告A5概況並被質詢本次議程有柯志恩等20人提出質詢均經核能安全委員會主任委員陳明禎及相關人員及其答覆說明決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入紀錄並看證供報"},{"start":1847.33,"end":1863.847,"text":"三對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關建樹以順便答覆通過臨時提案一項宣讀完畢好請問各位委員上次會議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":1867.054,"end":1893.002,"text":"應該沒有,那沒有的話我們就議事錄確定那今天議程是邀請國立故宮博物院蕭忠煌院長列席報告業務概況並備質詢那我們首先介紹在場委員謝榮介委員萬美玲委員"},{"start":1895.663,"end":1918.66,"text":"那我們介紹在場與會官員國立故宮博物院院長蕭忠煌院長國立故宮博物院副院長黃永泰副院長國立故宮博物院副院長余沛景副院長國立故宮博物院主任秘書徐孝德主秘"},{"start":1920.662,"end":1939.979,"text":"国立故宫博物院综合规划处处长张晨娟国立故宫博物院书画文献处处长何延泉国立故宫博物院器物处处长吴晓云国立故宫博物院登录保存处处长林国平"},{"start":1941.855,"end":1961.11,"text":"國立工工博物院行銷業務處處長王耀峰謝謝國立工工博物院展示服務處處長王雲芬國立工工博物院南院處處長彭子晨彭處長國立工工博物院數位資訊室主任謝俊科主任"},{"start":1963.692,"end":1981.823,"text":"國立故宮博物院秘書室參事代理秘書室主任王珍珠謝謝國立故宮博物院人事室主任吳婉華謝謝國立故宮博物院主記事主任林美瑤國立故宮博物院政風室邊審羅少華好那現在請蕭院長進行報告時間8分鐘"},{"start":1997.518,"end":2006.673,"text":"主席葛昭緯還有兩位委員大家早非常高興有機會到"},{"start":2009.884,"end":2029.32,"text":"立法院教育文化委員會來報告對於委員歷年來對故宮博物院的預算跟業務的支持與執政請表達謝意 以下請就故宮博物院113年的業務執行的情形跟114年的工作計畫做一個報告"},{"start":2031.401,"end":2057.47,"text":"來 下一頁那在故宮博物院 包括我用PowerPoint比較簡單專業服務快意整合那故宮博物院秉持一個專業研究多面向的一個策展那掌握多元策展方向與流行歧視結合在地特色與故宮元素提供觀眾多元豐富的一個博物館展覽來 下一頁快意交推配樣"},{"start":2058.55,"end":2084.059,"text":"年輕觀眾辦理故宮校園大使計畫招募故宮青少年文化大使培養青年觀眾並促進文化參與共同推動博物館機用辦理博物館開放資料深度應用鼓勵中小學生結合新課程以數位工具推動AI STEAM教育配合節慶活動辦理分靈分眾多元型態的教育推廣活動及藝文展演行銷故宮並與民眾生活連結促進社會對話與交流"},{"start":2087.06,"end":2106.862,"text":"在開放多元擴大產業部分知行策展專業拓展兒少數設置策展執行會邀請跨業專家學者知行策展方向設置兒童青少年事務推動執行會邀請青年學者擔任執行委員建立博物館兒童與青年議題的交流平台"},{"start":2108.414,"end":2135.604,"text":"辦理迎接日世代博物館共融教育論壇第一波線上論壇計較與當代青年對博物館展示教育的需求下一頁另外的話充實數位內容發展線上應用建置整合數位典藏檢索系統以Open Data專期提供單一檢索平台以開放社群平台為基然後包括Google活動擴大博物館開放資料的應用"},{"start":2137.185,"end":2158.325,"text":"應用新媒體載具平台 露出博物館最新動態促進與當代觀眾的互動交流在新媒體數位展的部分 吸收地方館所共同來合作以台南美術館 蘭陽博物館 台中的公共資訊圖書館等推動多檔新媒體數位特展 提供民眾多元觀展體驗"},{"start":2160.256,"end":2162.897,"text":"那故宮的數位展見榮後美國國際獎項協會舉辦的妙術創業獎去年共獲得四座金獎及兩座銀獎"},{"start":2172.301,"end":2189.797,"text":"那辦理故宮100PLUS宴慶LOGO設計競賽以故宮100PLUS宴慶永續發展為主題那這個得獎的作品用在故宮的宴慶活動跟文創商品那接下來的話友善評審推動觀眾色情持續收集觀眾意願"},{"start":2192.039,"end":2210.989,"text":"辦理服務台及專長人員友善服務教育訓練定期召開不定期服務品質獎服務品質提升專論會議充實導覽內容精進服務品質鼓勵心聲障礙學者參與藝文活動提供偏鄉多元學習體驗辦理地度參與觀眾評檢教育推廣活動"},{"start":2214.181,"end":2241.54,"text":"那另外的話就是以臺北榮總 嘉義長庚醫院 嘉義衛生局等在地性醫療機關合作 辦理六零課程推動一個展演活動 推動 辦理那個文化評檢的推動活動營造友善空間 提升參觀品質方面北院的行政大樓 圖書館在去年的12月27日落成接牌"},{"start":2242.984,"end":2256.502,"text":"那圖書文獻大樓在今年的二月進攻第二展覽館在六月的時候我們將辦理大都會的展覽那另外無障礙連通道的新建工程也辦理招標作業中此外"},{"start":2258.084,"end":2285.018,"text":"故宮國寶無路修復展示館建築計畫議定115年完工那本館延期指標系統系統設計將在113年就完成已經完成現在設置中那永續發展接軌國際方面的話就是國際合作開拓國際事業辦理萬國金輛大美不言跟幻科亞寶等國際大展接下來"},{"start":2285.956,"end":2313.864,"text":"加強跨界合作互動交流國內的各個館所大學共同辦理策展活動那另外參與經濟部外貿協會歐洲形象展泰國形象展跟這一次的那個大阪萬博來接下來參與書展 禮展等活動那另外的話就剛有講到就故宮好客我們推動日本韓國國際青年旅遊邀請日韓YouTuber甚至探討故宮分享故宮"},{"start":2315.7,"end":2344.476,"text":"在優化保存環境升級庫房管理方面進行持續庫房改善違規工作然後進行RFID無限射頻的一個現代化管理辦理文物論壇研討會來 接下來召開永續發展工作小組會完成北部延期溫室氣體盤查出盤作業然後北部延期落實綠建築及智慧建築計畫南部延期完成太陽能光電停車場提供綠燃及遮蔽功能"},{"start":2345.546,"end":2372.023,"text":"那114年工作重點包括一百宴慶的基文開來規劃專書出版推廣那接下來展覽規劃的話辦理快活作那基本上來講有幾個大展包括那個以大都會印象不來展覽然後以捷克故宮百品然後到法國龍展那南北宴慶也辦理系列的一個展覽活動"},{"start":2373.752,"end":2386.766,"text":"文創的部分我們特別為了故宮百年我們把原來的一般就是收錢的匯率從3%降到2%然後訂定優惠的一個產品商家的一個銷售優惠"},{"start":2395.518,"end":2405.776,"text":"那另外的話就是推展故宮的品牌之外的話我們跟觀光署台鐵各個單位合作那透過百年宴慶宣傳然後振興台灣的觀光"},{"start":2407.58,"end":2428.025,"text":"那在提升展覽的能量方面的話我們持續針對文物的研究前世辦理多種不同的展覽請參與那另外多元教育的部分的話我想我們也一直持續透過捷慶透過教育然後透過各種不同的展覽來推廣故宮的形象"},{"start":2429.125,"end":2455.544,"text":"那辦理執行會議這個我們會持續辦理那另外的話結合青少年族群展現多元觀點推動校園大使計畫然後大專生公佈我們見習希望擴大青年的連結那同時線上的數位內容然後開放open data的平台提供單列檢索然後我們也跟TED研模型嫁接然後接下來"},{"start":2457.391,"end":2484.602,"text":"建構百年宴慶的話我們一個與Google合作建立一個專屬的網站然後也應用瀑布流的方式可以讓大家更容易閱覽接下來友善平淺的部分持續辦理各項的一個協子的一個親近故宮的活動那也辦理弱勢族群然後65歲低收入跟聯會參觀的活動提升服務品質"},{"start":2486.3,"end":2504.971,"text":"那另外的話 北部縣區的話 無障礙入口的部分的話 已經現在發報作業中 能不停這場分段完成驗收然後接下來的話 就是我們也持續推動國際的展覽 包括江戶府社會大都會的展覽"},{"start":2506.111,"end":2532.851,"text":"然後包括故宮百品到捷克國家博物館農產到那個法國吉隆尼博物館那另外的話國內辦理各種多項的國際的屆展活動那另外參與大阪市府應用深層式的人工智慧展現文化的軟實力那另外的話也跟各界持續交流然後推廣合作"},{"start":2535.806,"end":2560.828,"text":"國際接軌的部分的話我想這個部分的話都請大家參議院因為對不起時間沒有控制好那另外的話我們改善違規跟那個數位監控的部分也都持續在推動那對於大院對故宮博物院的一個支持我們期待成為一個全民的故宮那也希望成為一個世界的故宮敬請各位委員指正並給支持"},{"start":2565.313,"end":2580.527,"text":"好 謝謝蕭院長口頭報告我們現在進行詢答每位出席委員質詢六分鐘必要時延長兩分鐘列席委員質詢時間為四分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午十點三十分"},{"start":2581.388,"end":2601.001,"text":"委員如有臨時提案請於上午10點30分前提出並於本會委員郭育晴委員質詢結束後進行臨時提案處理處理提案時若提案委員及連署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先請發言登記第一位萬美玲委員質詢好謝謝召委我們有請蕭院長"},{"start":2610.258,"end":2633.466,"text":"請蕭院長備質詢 謝謝好 院長早院長 我們今年其實故宮的文物出訪也有算兩件大事第一個就是故宮跟捷克的國家博物館所合作的我看名稱也定出來了叫做故宮文物百選及其故事特展沒有錯嘛"},{"start":2634.506,"end":2661.721,"text":"那這個預計是在9月12號要開始那另外有一個也是我們去年就知道的要跟法國的凱布朗利博物館來合作一個龍的特展那這個預計是在11月18號要開始展開那不論是捷克的9月或者是法國的這個11月大概時間都已經非常的這個迫近了你看9月份現在已經馬上就要進入到5月了那不曉得現在各項的準備工作"},{"start":2662.481,"end":2689.252,"text":"這是什麼樣的一個狀況能不能請這個院長簡述一下根文報告各項的籌備工作的話都已經確定顯見然後包括那個現在的那個出國的文物的審查的話除了少部分之外的話大部分都已經是審定了目前比較進度慢的就是因為他要從國報中央谷物然後審過之後才到一般谷物"},{"start":2689.332,"end":2708.823,"text":"那一般職務的話排定5月5號就是那個台北市文獻委員會我要上台這個等一下我來一一跟您再就教但是據我了解原本我們這個捷克的故宮文物百選及其故事特展那預計是有124件文物要出展那現在好像增加了7件來到131件"},{"start":2711.344,"end":2724.141,"text":"那这个法国龙的特展原本要展出116件文物那现在是下降了调整到只有85件减少了大概足足有31件那这个下降的部分是为什么"},{"start":2725.58,"end":2747.698,"text":"是跟您剛剛所說的文資審議有關係還是有其他的原因?都有關係在那個增加的部分故宮文物百選的話124件增加131件的話它有一些部分的話是因為當初在算的時候算它的物件沒有算它的配件就是說"},{"start":2749.26,"end":2772.497,"text":"這我們能理解啦 就是配件加進去它就完整嘛所以應該這個數量是1.3 1.6那為什麼1.16降到85在法國怎麼講農展的部分的話原來是這樣 原來的話是疫情農展是在去年農年 農年 去年 去年展出但是因為疫情的關係所以延後了 延後原來蓋博倫尼那個檔期本來是要用那個院長啊"},{"start":2773.097,"end":2801.724,"text":"你今天如果這樣備詢給60分鐘都不夠你只要告訴我原因是什麼就好跟文資審議有沒有關係跟文資審議沒有絕對的關係沒有絕對的關係就是有關係是嗎不是因為它原來是要所以為什麼會調降原來要做兩檔展出但是因為要分兩個檔次展出但是因為檔期改變的話現在只剩下一個檔期一個檔期的話我們就把東西116件再精挑85件"},{"start":2802.811,"end":2826.089,"text":"所以是因為精挑的關係 要把最好的拿出去但是我們來看 據本席的查詢我們調整出展文物之後現在這個數量確定下來 但這個數量當中捷克展還有一般古物15件法國展還有重要古物2件 一般古物18件這兩個展加起來 總共還有35件的文物還沒有取得文資身份"},{"start":2827.25,"end":2848.592,"text":"其實還是會擔心啊你這個文資審議會不會有問題預計多久會完成有沒有辦法按照你現在的計畫如期如約的出展跟我們報告沒有問題因為剛講除了重要股兩件之外的話一般股五十八件跟那個捷克展的跟那個華國展的都排定到5月5號就台北市文獻委員會分兩個檔次來審"},{"start":2850.734,"end":2863.726,"text":"好 第一個是說我們騎乘已經排了嘛那第二個就是要確定審議一定沒有問題喔一般國務基本上沒有問題他走行氣而已好 因為這個是很重要喔我想去年的時候其實本席也已經啊先幫你到這個現場去看過了一次喔那也跟他們的博物館的館長喔"},{"start":2868.831,"end":2889.711,"text":"我們當時在捷克也有去做了一些溝通包括展場的狀況那還有一個很重要的是其實我們在我們自己故宮啊這個百周年的時候我們還出展這麼重要的文物去捷克我們也希望透過這個展能夠把這個台灣帶出去也讓他看到我們故宮文物的美所以我們當時去的時候也有要求要求就是在這個捷克的博物館能夠在整個"},{"start":2891.493,"end":2911.983,"text":"在歐洲地方 不管是透過網路 實體廣告各方面的宣傳要到位能夠下去所以我看起來捷克方也非常的配合所以我們在準備工作上面恐怕也要更嚴謹一些那除了文資身份之外我們知道文物出國其實必須要依照文物運出入申請辦法在第四條當中有說了一個要辦理保險"},{"start":2914.804,"end":2936.753,"text":"那上次院長有承諾說保險絕對沒有問題不過現在距離捷克跟法國的特展就在沒結了那目前你的保險狀況是什麼樣?保險的話基本上我們運輸保險都已經花包了那這幾天的話就是那個國際貨幣公司的話他們進來在什麼時候會完成呢?"},{"start":2938.212,"end":2963.309,"text":"什麼時候完成尤其捷克展那7月就要去了對不對那個院長我請教您一件事情那請問一下我們的這些要去捷克的這131件文物啊什麼時候會出發預計什麼時候到捷克什麼時候出發原則上會是9月但是因為航班的話9月份對航班的話我們大概過去的慣例都不會對外公佈"},{"start":2964.178,"end":2988.07,"text":"沒有關係但是這個重點在哪裡你要把你自己的準備工作做好包括我說的那個保險你們現在開始做了嘛但什麼時候可以把這個保險確定完成這是很重要的事情耶基本上來講保單已經在處理當中那保單當然他們現在還沒有送給我們因為現在還有一些食物的葬糧的工作要重新再切入"},{"start":2988.77,"end":3009.526,"text":"館長 我想提醒您我知道這些東西其實你們都有在規劃中但是那個期程要去掌握我剛剛特別有提到我們這一次對於捷克跟法國出展是一個很重要的文化交流也可以替故宮替台灣在歐洲打響我們的知名度很重要那你有沒有評估過這一次我們出訪這麼重要那我們會帶回來什麼樣的效益"},{"start":3010.827,"end":3036.955,"text":"基本上來講的話過去的慣例只要在國外展覽的話國際的禮貨都會增加所以一方面的話當然對國外去推展所謂的故宮的文物之美那另外的話也希望說回饋台灣的話有一些公共的效益好 那我最後請教您您會不會也就是同樣邀請我們捷克國家博物館跟法國這個博物館的相關文物來台做交流策展"},{"start":3038.023,"end":3053.813,"text":"這個展覽一般的慣例的話就是我們都是以對等的方式來邀請彼此的展覽所以現在有邀請他們來嗎在合約裡面有訂定但是展覽的內容現在還在討論還在討論中我想這兩點非常重要因為交流交流嘛所以有來有往好不好"},{"start":3054.753,"end":3080.491,"text":"那另外我想我們看到故宮南院終於我們的專案就是參觀故宮南院專案終於開放給我們北部學子也就是說在上個會期本席有質詢關於我們百萬學子悠遊博物館的專案計畫那北院是對全國開放但是當時南院只有開放給新竹以南的學校來申請所以當時本席有跟院長來拜託來要求所以我們也開放了"},{"start":3080.891,"end":3098.495,"text":"所以這一點謝謝您謝謝委員的建言我們現在兩邊都開放對 我覺得這很棒你看喔就是本席跟您建議之後其實我看馬上就收到很棒的成效了我們看到根據統計今年第一次到南院參訪的學校有64所共計4306名師生來參加其中馬上本席的選區桃園我們就有三所學校共計505名的學生來了那台北也有一所學校24名師生你看喔"},{"start":3109.738,"end":3130.483,"text":"第一波我們剛剛做了調整以後就有12%有12%是來自於我們北部的學校可見新竹以北的這些學校的師生你開放南院來參觀以後它的其實需求量也是大的所以在這個部分我是想藉這個機會一方面謝謝您我們把它做了開放第二個我相信未來還有更多的北部學校"},{"start":3131.023,"end":3151.417,"text":"也會來南院做參訪那我也希望故宮用這個經驗往後如果我們做很多的相關推廣的計畫能夠一開始我們就對全國來開放那不要再有自己對這個地域設限或是差別待遇你看這樣子是限制到了其實有些人想要去看故宮南院或者故宮北院或者你相關活動的美所以這一點"},{"start":3152.318,"end":3171.166,"text":"一方謝謝我們把它落實了我們開放北部的學校到南苑參訪二方面未來我們希望我們所有的活動都能夠全國自開放這樣可以嗎可以 謝謝委員的建議那對我們南苑的整體的形象跟那個觀眾的提升都有很大的幫助好 謝謝院長謝謝萬美玲委員質詢請院長回座接下來我們請柯志恩委員質詢"},{"start":3185.208,"end":3185.589,"text":"謝謝莊委 我們請院長請院長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":3191.022,"end":3218.781,"text":"科院长院长早这次大美步演这个特展果然是获得非常多的好评那我们还是要问故宫有没有从这一次的合作当中吸取一些不同的经验因为这个特展半数都是我们故宫然后一半也是从法国但是在这个展览的时候我们听说法国在台湾代理商的时候是非常的强势但是强势某种程度也叫做一种坚持了"},{"start":3219.722,"end":3233.997,"text":"那身为东道族我们要为了配合他们的美学配合他们的贵气其实呢有些时候也不得不同意在我们这个本院跟南院的装潢的要求嘛那院长你认为这一法国这一方面的要求是合情合理的吗"},{"start":3235.335,"end":3260.298,"text":"合情合理超越故宫原来的水准因为故宫没有办法花那么多的金钱买那么好的灯然后做那么好的掌柜就是你认为但是有很多的故宫的内部的员工会认为知道内心的认为反而会认为说故宫是不是有必要一个堂堂四大博物馆故宫有没有必要需要这么的委屈举例来说他们嫌我们的志工的制服不好看"},{"start":3261.099,"end":3287.852,"text":"然后把志工的休息室腾出来做VIP然后呢我们的展柜不好看所以在场内来做修缮装潢我们当然知道这个玻璃柜是很好可以显示珠宝的一个柜器那他们要求全部做新的所以呢故宫是大家的故宫不是VIP的故宫所以我们说这些问题是否在未来合作的时候可以因为这样子然后能够让故宫的这个主体性能够更加的凸显院长"},{"start":3291.577,"end":3315.287,"text":"你有沒有覺得為了要讓這次展出成功有點相忍畏國的感覺但他的確得到一個廣泛的社會的讚喜那當然同仁會覺得說跟故宮的作業模式不太一樣可是我也跟故宮的同仁說我們謝謝外面人家所以院長你還是覺得這次收獲的正向比這個所謂的委屈還是大很多就對了"},{"start":3315.987,"end":3337.441,"text":"但是你还是得看看有一些很多的员工看在眼里啊他们是认为故宫其实在未来跟彼此之间互惠的方式上面故宫的主导权应该更大好的那主导权如果发过来我们这边大家都可以这么配合的话那我们就要看看我们要到捷克去对方也可不可以来配给我们配合一下因为这是彼此之间互惠的嘛对不对"},{"start":3337.921,"end":3359.587,"text":"所以你看我们有这些国宝翠玉白菜清明上河图哇他不仅是出宫而且呢还要到我们的这个捷克去漂洋过海我们来看看这些的安全到底有没有完全配合一下所以他是完全配合我们故宫吗刚刚外委员已经问过那个展场我也看过我也看过他有完全配合我们吗一如我们配合法国的产出一样吗"},{"start":3360.747,"end":3387.277,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們跟捷克跟包括跟華國的話我們用一般的交流的一個慣例那當然就是歡克亞堡這次的展覽的話幾乎大部分幾乎所有的經費都是他們負擔所以他們可以負擔更高額的經費來做好那我們這次送這些過去我們的保險費你剛也回應了但是並沒有讓我聽得很清楚這次保險費是你大概預估多少錢是誰來負擔是故宮還是對方"},{"start":3391.248,"end":3410.882,"text":"因為保險會是兌換負擔那多少錢你大概知道嗎像這樣的翠玉白菜現在這麼大部分可能會多少我們會給他們的保險金額可是基本上來講故宮的文物的保險金額一般都沒有公開"},{"start":3412.028,"end":3421.769,"text":"都沒有公開 很多都是無價的我說實在保險公司也不曉得該怎麼樣來建礦客牙保也沒有公開他們的東西也都是他們所以我們大家不會知道就是到底有多少保險費就對了"},{"start":3424.982,"end":3430.883,"text":"不便公開好 不便公開我們也不會在質詢台上問你這樣的問題我們只要先確保我們這些寶物出去大概都是可以非常的平安歸來那我還是要特別問到除了出國之外我們通常都會有做個雙向的互惠嘛2003年我們有天子之寶到德國那他們回饋給我們是德一百年2014故宮的神品至寶到我們東京九州那東博給我們的回饋是日本美術之最那這一次捷克給我們什麼樣的回饋"},{"start":3455.62,"end":3479.849,"text":"捷克的部分的话我们还在跟捷克所以还不知道但是会有相对的回馈就对了这点非常的重要因为我时间非常有限我还是把速度加快一点那你看我们像故宫这个大美不言完了之后呢故宫平打广告就是六月有所谓的这个大都会博物馆这个雷诺瓦还有饭骨的名画我想这会带动很多的人潮没有问题但是呢我还是要强调因为我们面对的是一百年"},{"start":3480.549,"end":3491.738,"text":"那這些是我們這個大都會 倒不是我們故宮70萬件的故宮所以這個是我們還是要特別注意的那我要提醒院長90週年的時候 你看故宮展現非常深厚的廣場跟策展的一個實力嘛神筆丹青嘛 天保九儒嘛還有範寬的這樣子的一個部分等等之類的 這都是你知道那個時候的然後呢 我們到100年的時候呢我們有沒有什麼偉大的特展"},{"start":3507.23,"end":3515.145,"text":"故宮的特產除了我剛剛所說的大都會我們故宮真的拿出來的可以讓他展現出百年風華的是哪一些"},{"start":3516.242,"end":3537.054,"text":"故宮博物院的話基本上來講的話 同北送的必送然後那個甲子萬年 甲子萬年的話因為我現在看到你24頁跟25頁都是故宮但是質量跟吸引力 我說實在的不是只有我看到 很多人都說跟90週年比起來其實還是有很大的一個空間你知道90週年的時候有多少參觀人數嗎"},{"start":3542.957,"end":3551.567,"text":"我手上沒有資料我告訴你529萬這個數字嚇死人吧故宮曾經在90週年的時候2015年的時候是529萬你覺得故宮100週年你的目標參觀人數是多少"},{"start":3558.782,"end":3573.322,"text":"跟委員報告 我當然就是說100週年 今年的話我的目標還是350萬北院的話240萬 南院110萬350萬 我們也希望達到但是還是要提醒一下 大美不言的加持 去年北院是187萬"},{"start":3574.463,"end":3602.089,"text":"南院大概是99萬加起來其實還是不如你2024年所預估的350萬287萬這已經有大美部也來做加持我也知道故宮上下都非常的努力但是人次的部分我們還是要來看一下2016年是創造最高院長你看到614萬你會不會覺得非常的這是同仁努力的結果當然你受到很多路客還有疫情等等之類的我還是要提醒2015年的時候外籍的觀光客大概佔八成"},{"start":3603.769,"end":3625.232,"text":"那我們本級大概只有兩成港澳當然是最多啦那現在因為兩岸之間的關係我們就不再多醉言了但是還是要提醒一下2024年的時候外籍大概是93萬本籍大概是93萬大概就是一半一半了然後呢以前最大的人數就是我們港澳大概只剩下5萬人左右"},{"start":3625.632,"end":3636.001,"text":"這個大概是政治環境所影響我們整個觀光的策略讓故宮其實在整個人數來說是降低很多這跟整體的觀光政策有絕大的一個關係但是我們要去問院長還可以再給你看一個下面"},{"start":3640.455,"end":3669.876,"text":"你可以看出你知道吗目前为止反而是除了港澳之外像韩国却变成我们最大的一个大宗而且他大概是来我们台湾人士里面他大概可以在故宫消费的金额大概是212块美金可以说是超越日本变成第一但是院长当你这数据大数据跑出来之后你知道我们北院里面有多少韩语的导览员他现在已经变成我们第一名了整个参观的故宫第一名你有多少导览员"},{"start":3671.37,"end":3688.977,"text":"北院的韓語導覽員只有一個而且只對特殊的團體有特別預先制特別預先的你現在有中文你現在有英文它已經變成跟時代已經完全不一樣了當你沒有任何的入客沒有任何港澳沒有任何地方的時候我們的觀光客現在變成韓國是最高的時候你只有一個"},{"start":3693.038,"end":3712.349,"text":"你不觉得在未来在吸引这个韩籍的光棍客上面连我们高雄很多的小吃店美容院都已经放上韩语了啊你一个堂堂的故宫还没有一个只有一个故宫的导览员院长今天的景调舞景调要看落后了我知道这个问题存在我们也一直希望说可以招募那个韩语的导览员"},{"start":3712.469,"end":3729.379,"text":"而且你的商品的賣場是最多人想看你目前為止也很沒有韓語的協助你真的完全故宮這麼多人可以要來的部分我只告訴院長這個部分是你們要很努力的方向任何你只要與時俱進觀光政策向目前暗面不明但是故宮還是大家的最愛你應該來做這樣子的一個處理"},{"start":3732.441,"end":3738.188,"text":"對 我們有特別來培訓那個韓裔的導遊因為當然這個部分的話導覽員只有一個我還是建議院長強烈的建議院長當你知道這個人說而且未來如果兩岸的政策還是繼續低迷然後呢 觀光還繼續低迷的話韓"},{"start":3748.019,"end":3762.875,"text":"還是一個最大的一個部分所以還是請院長在這一塊你應該多琢磨不只在商品在標示還有在搭檔員層面上面總委員報告我們一定會做因為我們現在有韓語搭檔手冊展場的話也有韓語的總說那我們會一步一步來倒"},{"start":3763.396,"end":3783.869,"text":"感謝謝謝我們還是祝福這個一百週年這是非常重要的我還是強調一次院長十年來真的你那個質跟量代表故宮這麼大的一個重點可能你還是要思考一下你們剛剛的所呈現出來其實很難說服非常多對故宮很喜歡的不管是故宮人或是任何的人好不好思考一下謝謝謝謝柯志恩委員的諮詢請官員回座接下來有請劉書斌委員諮詢"},{"start":3805.844,"end":3806.084,"text":"有請蕭院長質詢謝謝 被質詢"},{"start":3810.652,"end":3816.598,"text":"我們也知道故宮它本身是一個文化的一個宣傳它甚至包括了有你剛才都有報告的講到了包括觀光的部分還要包括的是擴及到現在也許是你重要的部分是在教育的領域的一個擴展"},{"start":3835.735,"end":3855.512,"text":"那因為它文化是我們所以特別要去重視到那我們現在進入到第一個我想要關注的焦點是在開放多元跟擴大參與這個情況那往下看看到你的報告當中有提到說等於校管的這個管校的合作計畫包括跟中正大學合開的這樣子的一個通識課程還有其他"},{"start":3857.373,"end":3860.516,"text":"青少年的導覽跟博物館的學術研討會那詢問說未來的規劃是不是有在跟更多的大專院校做共同的合作課程規劃"},{"start":3867.461,"end":3891.013,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們有那個校園大使的一個培訓然後我們也甄選那個各個大專業校裡面的那個學生然後做一個教員推廣活動另外的話所謂的管校合作計畫不只是說因為跟中正大學跟永慶高中因為我們有很多線上的開放的一些課程的話都是給學校"},{"start":3891.833,"end":3906.048,"text":"好 但是希望說你的課程這部分如果有線上課程是很好利用到我們數位化的這個優勢是不是以後有做KPI的部分說到底有多少人去瀏覽了是這部分甚至有時候要填一下問卷也是非常好的事情可以嗎"},{"start":3907.85,"end":3924.399,"text":"呃可以而且這些數據的話我們可以給委員一個書面的資料好謝謝謝謝好那第二個重點呢我就討論到的是故宮一百plus的這個季往開來的這個主題那你們也辦了呃這個logo的一個徵選是非常漂亮的有他的意義存在的那"},{"start":3924.679,"end":3952.362,"text":"因為是季往開來我們看下一頁就可以知道呢它是從民國14年的時候開始然後呢一直延伸到民國的這個54年的這個到台灣的這樣的一個在開館那我們就想問一下在下一頁看到說那有沒有針對你們現在辦了這麼多的國內的跟國外的跟合作的情況那有沒有跟其他的特別針對這個季往的部分呢有一些活動來去呼應這百年的"},{"start":3954.174,"end":3967.993,"text":"跟文報告就是我們有做那個驗死的一個會編那驗死的會編的話基本上來講的話我們從那個故宮成立的歷史然後一直延續到最近這個已經出版了"},{"start":3968.834,"end":3994.094,"text":"另外的話就是我們在故宮的官網上面有所謂的故宮的過去的歷史這些部分那因為對於故宮百年大家的期待都希望說有一些所謂的超級大展但是作為歷史性的展覽的話基本上來講我們並不是沒有做我們現在請藍燕他們在今年的年底就做一個展覽"},{"start":3994.534,"end":4013.007,"text":"好 OK那我們繼續向下看當然台灣的深耕的部分呢比例完也是不容易的那我們再看看就針對那你的執行成效是什麼我們就來看往下一頁看到的時候呢你們當初在編列這個預算的時候預期成果你可以看到在第一部分看到的就是"},{"start":4014.201,"end":4041.374,"text":"前面性的回顧 剛剛有提到同時展現學術 研究 科技 文創的量能但是這一個部分呢到底是什麼樣的量能 沒有判斷尤其是到下面的情況同樣的下面那兩個總的預算也是整個部分因此想要詢問一下的你們在針對故宮100plus的活動當中研究 科技 文創的具體量化指標是什麼尤其跟上一年度或是甚至像柯志恩委員所說那跟十年前的這樣子大慶有沒有什麼樣的對照比較"},{"start":4044.708,"end":4066.242,"text":"這個部分的話的確是我們沒有特別去進行所謂的量化指標的一個比較因為對故宮來講的話百年宴慶不管90或是100的話它都是一個階段性的一個自我砥礪因為重要的話是100年之後我們會有什麼樣的面目而不是說到100年做一個總結然後之後"},{"start":4067.623,"end":4082.359,"text":"就重新開始不是因為都是一個延續性的一個工作因為這樣不能說齁因為歷史是傳承下去尤其是故宮這部分所以這部分你當然可以做一些相關性的比較尤其是我們是越來越開放我們是對世界開放的部分那甚至民友的工作項目當中也是向下的扎根嘛對不對的確是可以做一個"},{"start":4085.703,"end":4097.908,"text":"當然不只是量化 但執行的部分當然也可以成就希望就再提醒在後面再繼續進行在下一頁我們看另外你們有個重點是在多元平權這也是我覺得是在呼應到我們是人權治國的內涵那往下"},{"start":4101.049,"end":4101.529,"text":"北院兒童學藝中心 南院兒童創藝中心"},{"start":4131.971,"end":4141.451,"text":"那有沒有想到說更多的醫療機構尤其上南越這部分的時候在樂齡的這個服務者或是在醫療部分有沒有什麼樣的新的規劃或是願景"},{"start":4143.941,"end":4162.89,"text":"基本上來講的話就是我們現在有跟長庚再繼續再談那因為醫療院所的話基本上故宮是作為一個示範性的一個嫁接就跟醫療院所做一個社會處方簽的一個嫁接工作"},{"start":4163.59,"end":4183.898,"text":"跟委員報告老實講故宮有再多的人再多的人力的話我們都沒有辦法面面其道跟所有的醫療院所做合作因為這個東西的話是沒有辦法的好 我只是想說這邊透過樂齡你們有事實上考到這邊那就暫時量力而為我可以理解我們都盡量就跟醫療院所然後透過醫療院所的方式去做"},{"start":4184.278,"end":4208.47,"text":"因為它事實上的這個效果可能惡靈的這個藝術的治療效果可能也文化醫療效果可能也不錯好 那繼續往下我們看到有個幾個提醒因為可能是漏掉就在新故宮的故宮公共化的這個議題上面當中呢有一些的這個指標看到的是它是故宮的公共化帶動觀光產業這個中程計畫當中你可以看到它當初在設計這個KPI的指數當中呢從111年開始到116年你們設計的這個"},{"start":4213.712,"end":4241.591,"text":"人數都才維持到觀光人數就是245萬人跟實際上的人數你看到都112年都已經超過了那225年2025年當中你們也說到是要超過350萬人但我們現在再往前看一下這個地方就這個部分再說剛剛那個KPI的人數這部分是有問題的那這是在你們公開網頁上面第二個部分呢就在於說看到另外的這個消費參觀的消費生產者的KPI當中也是"},{"start":4242.412,"end":4257.133,"text":"你可以看到112年到116年都是數字都一模一樣那都沒有改變嗎因為我想應該是有改變可能這是一個疏忽啦就請大家 請貴賓館貴賓院在上面就修改然後另外的部分這次剛剛已經談過了我們繼續再往下看新的一個議題上面"},{"start":4260.776,"end":4277.229,"text":"追蹤管理就是當初 昭緯有排我們到南院去做文物的管理當初在幾個禮拜之前你們有設計到庫存的文物管理的部分提到無線射頻辨識 RFID 這個技術當初我們就發現到一個問題是說它只會感應到文物的推遲會感應到個別文物這邊 然後它偵測量等等的"},{"start":4285.815,"end":4312.415,"text":"那如果未歸車務戶的話就是沒有還是顯示正常的情況那目前情況這個制度這個機制有沒有做一些改進這個部分的話其實是我故意給那個委員看到的一個bug就是說我們單件的物件是沒有問題推車也沒有問題但是整批的掃描的話以現在來講技術上還要克服所以我是故意讓委員知道說我們有這樣的"},{"start":4314.197,"end":4329.356,"text":"那現在我們接下來的話要努力的目標那這個目標的話基本上來講的話要跟業界不是故宮單獨就可以解決的問題因為單獨技術上解決的話當然是很簡單可是整批的話基本上來講它還是有技術上的困難我們會持續來努力"},{"start":4331.539,"end":4356.049,"text":"好那就謝謝蕭院長因為我們從仔細的參觀之後發覺到還有包括你們報告當中看到說整個故宮的整個團隊是有很重要的是把文化就是在雖然在台灣的部分但是他的深耕的文化發展是不要是很重要尤其是文化是我們的根好那就希望繼續的往在擴大的這樣到國際的交流跟國內的深耕的這個計畫進行那就辛苦了謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝劉淑冰委員質詢請官員回座謝謝"},{"start":4378.624,"end":4384.546,"text":"好 謝謝劉書明委員那個院長請回我們接下來請葛如君召委質詢好 謝謝代理主席有請故宮蕭中皇院長好 有請蕭院長"},{"start":4401.961,"end":4402.244,"text":"招惹罩"},{"start":4402.947,"end":4431.177,"text":"好謝謝院長我想也是謝謝我們召委來特地代理主席也像昨天我在這個院會裡頭質詢我們的總統臺院長說大臺灣要這個大成功也要大合作我想這樣是一個很好的一個例子那我想今天院長想跟您請教這個西班牙和葡萄牙在4月28號中午爆發了大規模的停電導致交通燈"},{"start":4431.877,"end":4446.296,"text":"全數熄滅道路和機場可以說是一片混亂甚至有部分醫院也被迫暫停作業博物館等等的文教措施也可以說是難以倖免直到晚間兩國主要的城市才逐步復電"},{"start":4447.017,"end":4464.551,"text":"但要完全附電需要一週的時間本席上網查了一下位於西班牙馬德里的普拉多博物館從中午開始停電一直到晚上將近11點才恢復停電歷經了將近11小時在停電的期間除了暫停開放並疏散遊客以外"},{"start":4465.071,"end":4492.672,"text":"最重要的就是如何在停電的情況之下還要能夠維持文物的安全恆溫恆濕等等想請教一下院長院長這邊有沒有關注到核三廠二號機運轉到5月17號即將停機如果這個真的停機的話對於台灣將面臨第一個沒有核電的夏天很多專家學者都對於供電的穩定表示不太樂觀請問Google有沒有針對停電的緊急應變處理做過演練"},{"start":4494.416,"end":4518.141,"text":"故宮有針對停電的情形做過研認而且事實上我們在去年的話也因為台北市那個工務局新工處他們施工的時候就挖斷電纜故宮突然停電了所以我們也經歷了一個突發緊急的一個事件的處理挖斷電纜是一個因啦但是實際上停電就是果"},{"start":4518.541,"end":4543.132,"text":"故宮還是要為這個果負責也要做好準備當時您提到這個事件歷經這個一分鐘立即啟動供電整起事件大概20分鐘落幕那根據故宮的回應是依據國立故宮博物院災害緊急應變作業要點來啟動這個所謂的緊急應變那這裡想要請教一下院長這個相關的作業要點當中有沒有關於停電事件的緊急應變程序"},{"start":4546.22,"end":4569.751,"text":"呃 要點裡面緊急這個叫要點應該就是很重要嘛這個院長是不是應該你自己也要清楚喔有沒有跟停電有關 停電事件有關的呃不確定我 像說文物維護所冊裡面的話有沒有規定到那麼細我不曉得但是工作所則的話同仁這邊都有"},{"start":4571.431,"end":4593.345,"text":"應變作業要點裡面有沒有停電事件?沒關係,我就幫你回答啦事實上我們幫院長仔細檢視了一下緊急應變作業要點當中發現只有提到電器受損,需緊急疏散遊客整部緊急應變只針對風災、水災、鎮災、天然災害、火災、爆裂物、疫情傳染等等的人為災害"},{"start":4595.026,"end":4613.006,"text":"那當中呢並沒有提到萬一發生停電的事件的時候要來如何保存文物那請教一下院長故宮的備用電源最長可以供電多久時間備用電源的涵蓋範圍有沒有包含文物庫房文物庫房的保全和監視系統能不能在停電的狀態之下正常運作"},{"start":4614.852,"end":4625.117,"text":"基本上來講的話它的備用電源的話有包括那個展場跟那個庫房這個部分是有但是供電多長時間供電多長時間這個我就不"},{"start":4632.241,"end":4646.157,"text":"因為我們如果轉換才有供電的話基本上是沒有問題可以持續供電就我們自用發電啦但是才有存量的問題吧那存量回答一下能運作多久啊備多久啊"},{"start":4647.441,"end":4655.568,"text":"存量22小時然後我們會補充備援全管嗎包含恆溫 恆濕保全 庫房整個院區包含庫房22小時對好這個多求檢查一次"},{"start":4662.734,"end":4692.039,"text":"因為我們現在樓下我們那個樓下還有一個加油站所以要調油的話可能也比較方便這個部分每個月檢查這個部分我回去我會請我們確認一下喔因為這個要22小時的供電我是不知道那個柴油要放多少而且院區這麼大喔需要多少量有具體數據嗎3000多公升3000多公升存放在哪裡"},{"start":4693.203,"end":4710.503,"text":"地下跟跟文物存在一起啊不會吧安全的地方戶外那個那個報委員這個我回去以後我會召開一個專案會議我把這件事情都弄清楚謝謝我想這個這個必要的規定都都把它補全"},{"start":4711.004,"end":4727.561,"text":"故宮的安全很重要啦,因為我們文物都在裡面那我也看我們上次有去庫房啦這個保全和監視系統,停電的狀態也要確定是可以運作的那這個不然的話我們這個狀態我們看到有人如果不小心在裡面可能都不一定知道能不能出來"},{"start":4728.422,"end":4748.702,"text":"那再來呢我想除了避免因為突發的事件影響到文物安全其實我們也希望能夠落實庫房管理啦這也是上一次我們去訪查希望能夠了解的地方避免文物受到損害甚至有遭竊的風險當然我們理解故宮的管理是完善的但是2023年大英博物館就曾經發生過失竊的事件"},{"start":4749.463,"end":4772.398,"text":"估計高達2000件的文物遭竊,而且後來才發現那這個時任館長呢,也宣布辭職,也是負責那今年1月的時候,荷蘭的德倫特博物館也發生了這個竊盜事件其中有包括一頂,擁有2500年歷史的黃金頭盔遭竊那故宮南院的庫房呢,曾經也發生管理的疏失啦"},{"start":4773.599,"end":4792.652,"text":"這個有相關的人員啊這個沒有在名單裡面進去等等那因此兩週前我們就特地去了解一個狀況尤其是到故宮南院這裡當時院長也全程參與請教一下院長你的這個專業這個相關的作業流程你給故宮南院的這個庫房管理文物移動的標準作業程序你打幾分啊呃 及格吧勉強勉強及格60分"},{"start":4800.602,"end":4817.618,"text":"我想其實我們當時在看南越已經運作很長的時間了我們覺得這樣子的一個做法老實說真的是有非常非常大的加強空間那南越的管理流程是人員照冊製作通行詞卡核對身份證件換證領卡"},{"start":4818.979,"end":4836.482,"text":"那我先講第一個令人覺得吃驚的是假設故宮南院和北院是用同樣的門禁系統全院加起來70萬件國寶每件5000萬來算的話大概35兆台幣的這樣的價值甚至我想裡面有很多無價之寶更不用講結果進出庫房的門禁"},{"start":4837.603,"end":4857.811,"text":"我們不是用這個所謂的紅膜掃描臉部辨識甚至沒有指紋更不用說相關的這些先進的技術竟然是用一張十塊錢就可以買到的腹瀉感應卡來進出管制這張腹瀉卡其實很容易遺失甚至有可能被撿走甚至被複製請教一下院長我們故宮的庫房門禁幾乎就跟我們"},{"start":4863.675,"end":4879.373,"text":"社區大廈的管理方式是一樣這難道就是故宮對於國保重視的程度嗎不值得用高科技來防護嗎跟委員報告高科技當然是可以可是大家拿的那個卡我北苑的卡在南苑不能用南苑的卡北苑不能用"},{"start":4879.653,"end":4906.249,"text":"那委員的卡那個是臨時卡但是真正拿卡是進不了的一定要兩位專業人員用那個指紋用紅膜去掃門才會開所以關鍵是那兩個同仁那個靜脈掃描不是因為那個卡就可以進得去那個卡只是去對照那個進庫房的人數真正要進入到庫房的話那個還是要有掃描才可以進去"},{"start":4906.849,"end":4927.259,"text":"那現在問題就來了 事實上院長您的回應剛好符合我待會要提的這個問題當天參觀的人員呢 你們說進行照測嘛其實就是這兩個這個管理的這個按指紋的人他覺得可以 這些人就可以進去事實上當時陰錯陽差啦 有某一個辦公室的同仁呢 有一位姓名是寫錯的"},{"start":4928.479,"end":4949.239,"text":"造成同音不同字的情況其實故宮全程沒有發現一樣讓他進入庫房等於是繼上次帶班清潔人進入庫房打掃之後又再一次出現同樣的問題不是說這個管理門禁的人有壓指紋就沒問題了其實也不是這樣子的相關的身份的如何驗證查核人臉有沒有辦法預先辨識訓練"},{"start":4953.263,"end":4979.048,"text":"其實有非常多新的方法可以來做我覺得那個RFID卡你說那等於說我們35兆的文物就仰賴這兩個人按指紋嗎院長你覺得這樣合理嗎當然更新的科技導入包括那個人臉辨識或是紅膜辨識基本上來講的話都是未來可行的可是以現在來講的話可能還是要需要一筆經費然後去做一個訓練是"},{"start":4981.809,"end":5005.679,"text":"我想這個院長我希望你們可以提出報告做檢討改善當時我們都看到了其實那邊數人頭數了半天其實對管理人員來講也很困擾而且這個準確率我覺得會有一些狀況那現在正值故宮115年預算擬編概算的一個現狀也世界上發生多起文物遭竊的案件我們不管是因為地緣政治還是經濟的一個狀態我們希望"},{"start":5008.53,"end":5015.869,"text":"院方能不能向行政院積極爭取預算加強故宮庫房的防盜措施啊有沒有在這樣子規劃 現在在你邊嘛"},{"start":5017.982,"end":5046.906,"text":"這個當然可以啦你不要現在在這裡講結果實際上編出來我們又看到又沒有可是跟委員報告如果那天的情況的話我這樣講用一個實務來講你就說60分啊不是 我要掃描這些委員這些助理的話基本上來講我不能拿他的身分證來掃描因為這個又不是護照所以他還是有他實際上的執行上的一個考量的工作要來處理並不是說我設了以後然後就是每個人進去就掃一下因為他"},{"start":5047.526,"end":5058.175,"text":"他是要做做存檔院長你沒有直接回答我的問題我覺得不要鬧你整個70萬件的國寶仰賴在這兩個人按指紋跟他肉眼比對你覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":5063.838,"end":5089.291,"text":"基本上來講的話一般正常的話就是入庫的人員都是我們自己的管員跟專案的包裝運輸公司不會突然有一大批這樣的一個人我想不要再逃避這個問題您自己也打60分之前就是有出現過沒有在名單裡面的人進去這次訪查陰錯陽差我們發現這樣的狀況還是有可能發生希望能編列相關的預算來解決同時要檢討報告"},{"start":5091.243,"end":5110.566,"text":"可不可以好這個部分的話我們當然很希望可以爭取更多的監會來精進庫房的管理好最後一個議題那我想這個也謝謝昭偉我再接一點時間這個我想最後來談一下故宮的定位今年這個消息出來其實大家都很心碎尤其是故宮的支持者"},{"start":5112.047,"end":5134.437,"text":"說參觀人數高達300萬人的第一名不是故宮博物院那剛剛這個人士很多人都提過了那今年是故宮百年的願慶其實大家都很希望看到更好的結果那我們其實有看到今年2月3月的參觀人是跟去年同期相比不僅今年是百年不僅沒有增加反倒更加的減少"},{"start":5135.497,"end":5162.22,"text":"請問你有沒有了解一下不增反減的原因還是說這其實就是你的KPI啊就是希望它越來越少 難道是這樣嗎 不是吧報委員不是 因為北院減少南院增加北院減少的話就是因為大美部員剛剛講過一個人流過去對 北院也增加 現在增加了就是因為四月增加了是不是 我們四月還沒過完啊二三月就是減少啊 數字都放在這裡啊 北院啊"},{"start":5162.56,"end":5184.23,"text":"但是現在的話現在的話家種的話都已經都已經上來了南苑增加了更多沒關係啦我想這個長期的下降剛剛都說了以前有五六百萬人一年當然扣除掉觀光人士其實我們的本地觀光客也還是下降我們剛剛都看到數字其實我們有點懷疑這是跟故宮南苑其實有明確的亞洲博物館的定位"},{"start":5184.89,"end":5198.795,"text":"故宮北院常年陷入定位不明甚至有點尷尬的狀態請問一下這個院長故宮北院的定位我們到底是不是能夠很明確的定位這個其實我們看了一下故宮北院它的定位一直都很清楚是什麼"},{"start":5200.321,"end":5225.671,"text":"就是一個華夏文物館 華夏博物館就是以典藏中華文物為主的一個博物館很好所以事實上你們的官網上也講了這個China's National Culture華夏的文物所以我想我希望給院長一個機會請院長大聲疾呼我們現在都有錄影直播是不是能夠幫我們喊一下歡迎世界各國的人一起來看"},{"start":5226.711,"end":5254.811,"text":"這個可不可以把我們最後一句話讓給你好不好就是我們幫你寫好了當然歡迎全世界各地各國的博物館到故宮來欣賞中華文物華夏文物的典藏那另外的話我們最近也跟那個教育部所屬的一個華語文教學的一個基金會合作我們希望把台灣有做華語文教育的七十幾個學校通通變成是故宮的一個夥伴關係把故宮當作他們的教室"},{"start":5255.271,"end":5265.975,"text":"我想故宮是最沒有意識形態的地方啦希望大家一起來欣賞我們的華夏文武 好不好OK大家一起努力 謝謝好 謝謝葛如君 昭偉 院長請回好 謝謝接下來有請林怡瑾 昭偉 質詢好 謝謝主席 有請蕭院長"},{"start":5284.385,"end":5310.485,"text":"請蕭院長備質詢 謝謝院長好剛剛很多委員都提到今年是否百年願慶喔可是藍白兩黨攜手送給了故宮一個大禮那就是小致水電費大致國際交流費用全部湖山亂動預算搞到故宮的百歲生日恐怕成為百年浩劫"},{"start":5311.626,"end":5331.211,"text":"藍白亂砍預算不但讓故宮一切分類工作顯得進退兩難 左右為難而且也一笑大方 一笑國際讓全世界看到竟然有一個國家的國會是這樣的二整全人類珍貴文化遺產我們來看 鎖定費 硬生生的一千多萬沒了"},{"start":5332.751,"end":5336.493,"text":"請問院長 這樣的基本維運的這個必要費用你要在哪裡去犧牲來節償補短是要犧牲這個展覽的品質嗎還是要犧牲行政的品質還有另外 剛剛院長你也一直強調你去年就說2025 今年的北院參觀人次你預計要達到250萬喔南院要突破100萬人次總共要350萬喔"},{"start":5360.208,"end":5381.279,"text":"但是今年媒體政策業務宣傳費一半以上都被刪掉900多萬預算被刪了500多萬在宣傳費不足的情況之下我想請教院長故宮的各鄉活動的資訊要如何擴及各族群你去年定下參展人數的目標會修正嗎"},{"start":5382.139,"end":5391.33,"text":"那故宮的業務單位回給我們辦公室的文件是非常憂心忡忡表示恐怕會影響參觀人士院長你如何回應"},{"start":5393.324,"end":5406.628,"text":"人事方面的話我當然還是給自己一個期望值就是350萬是沒有變但是調整北院240萬然後南院的話因為今年有大美復原的話南院的話110萬總體是250萬那當然沒有錯水電會被刪的話因為水電的結算數已經超過預算數所以它勢必會"},{"start":5416.621,"end":5446.201,"text":"有挪動啦就是因為水電會他是可以他是可以留用的所以我們可能會留用推廣教育的經費所以原來的譬如說百萬鞋子有故宮啊我們還是繼續辦但場次就會減少像這樣的推廣活動的話他就會相對減少因為沒有經費那當然為了不讓這個減少太過急劇的話我們是有跟社會企業跟宮廟共同合作希望說把這一塊也補起來就不要讓他有太大的落差"},{"start":5447.061,"end":5470.3,"text":"那宣傳的部分的話當然這是一個比較大的問題我們宣傳的話今年的話大概透過兩個大的國外的展覽一個是大美部園然後一個是大都會我們千拜託萬拜託拜託的合作單位加大力道宣傳因為來看這個展覽的話當然也會讓其他的展覽同樣收到關注這樣子"},{"start":5471.018,"end":5490.281,"text":"好 那我們再來看看國際交流的部分中國旅費的部分有八成以上都被刪掉17萬被刪成剩3萬那這是不是表示中國今年的我們的學術研討故宮就沒有辦法參加會不會影響故宮學術研究的成果"},{"start":5491.022,"end":5497.612,"text":"至於我們要到其他國家的旅費也被刪了一半297萬當中的178萬全部沒了我們去年開開心心的規劃您剛也提到像說今年我們要跟法國的"},{"start":5507.086,"end":5535.496,"text":"凱布朗利的博物館要攜手展出龍展讓法國的民眾進一步認識東方的龍文化就現在出國旅費倍大三那故宮也計畫今年9月到12月要到捷克我們要到捷克的布拉格國家博物館攜手合作要舉辦一個故宮文物百選及其故事的特展我們高人氣的翠玉白菜啊清明上河土等等這種藏品供祭擺件都要到捷克去"},{"start":5536.216,"end":5559.208,"text":"院長不管要去法國還是要去捷克旅費的短缺那故宮業務單位其實也是相當程度的憂心回應我們辦公室的文件也指出說不管是布展還是卸展還是開幕活動的安排人力都會有狀況也可能會影響到國際文化交流的成效所以我想進一步請教院長的是說人力的不足"},{"start":5559.728,"end":5570.234,"text":"是不是會讓我們寶貴的文物處在危險的狀態或者又會讓外國人覺得台灣對文物的維護會如此的隨便院長你怎麼覺得"},{"start":5571.801,"end":5589.832,"text":"跟委員報告就是有關考察的部分的話我們衡量整個經會的情況考察的部分的話我們就暫時就擱置考察考察的部分單純考察的部分你說在國內的考察國外的國外的考察"},{"start":5590.552,"end":5618.313,"text":"但是包括那個大陸對 中國這個就不去了因為大家不了解故宮最主要的經費出國經費是用在壓印跟布卸展上面如果是說那個壓印布卸展的話沒有這樣的經費的話它就會影響到整個布卸展的品質跟它的規劃這個的確所以我們也在尋求另外的一些資源可以讓這個活動"},{"start":5620.393,"end":5638.686,"text":"可以順利進行因為我不能講說因為預算被刪然後我們就會讓這個工作停擺或是說讓他的文物安全受到障礙所以這個部分的話我們有在尋求其他的方式來解決明白的講就是我們在找社會贊助好"},{"start":5639.787,"end":5660.368,"text":"好 那我們再看一般事務費也被刪了4700多萬在故宮回給本辦的資料上面來看這筆預算遭刪會嚴重影響展場的品質跟文物的安全還有相關展覽活動所以院長 怎麼樣因應這個危機特別是文物的安全"},{"start":5662.355,"end":5685.042,"text":"這個我跟委員報告就是說站在故宮的一個立場我們還是會想辦法克服這些困難所以當然就是有一些部分的話會有所影響譬如說南苑的我們有一些開放性的一般的所謂的維護那這個合約的話我們就停掉了然後把它整併到另外一個合約上面來處理"},{"start":5686.762,"end":5705.065,"text":"盡量不要影響到故宮不管藍培宴的一個展覽品質跟它的文物的保護所以藍白刪預算刪掉了故宮的宣傳行銷刪掉了故宮的國際外交這個其實是真的蠻惡劣的玩笑"},{"start":5705.686,"end":5724.273,"text":"那行銷跟外銷對一個國際級的博物館來看喔重要性是不言可喻喔那好 那我想我要呼籲喔為了盡可能彌補這個三預算的錯誤我想不分黨派的委員應該要無條件來全數解凍故宮的預算所以 反正"},{"start":5725.013,"end":5736.676,"text":"預算被刪了就刪了沒得救了好 那我們再來談談我們藍白委員還有機會來修正自身錯誤的凍結案尤其在院會的凍結業務費有兩億兩千萬元在教委會的我們根本沒有任何立場就如同剛剛葛昭偉也說其實我們對於故宮是最沒有意識形態的"},{"start":5747.8,"end":5764.519,"text":"當初我們在教文委員會在審查今年度的預算的時候我們是高度的共識而且我們沒有任何一項預算是出了委員會還有爭議就沒有任何預算是需要到協商程序喔所以請大家記得今年度的教文委員會審查預算"},{"start":5765.82,"end":5789.947,"text":"預算臨岸保留也就是說軟白在院會亂刪亂動我們教文組折的預算的時候推翻我們教文委員會所花費的一個會期去專業用心審查的結果根本就是在浪費國家資源 毫無正當性所以請國民黨跟民眾黨的教文委員真的不要再將錯就錯讓我們一起把院會被凍結的業務費兩億兩千萬元完整的還給故宮所以最後"},{"start":5796.131,"end":5802.121,"text":"針對這個預算解凍的程序院長你有什麼樣的呼籲或者你現在有什麼需要說明的"},{"start":5804.228,"end":5814.493,"text":"這個部分的話在委員會的話在凍結的部分的話4億2千250萬就包括那個新故宮計畫3億5千萬那另外的話 院會凍結的話後來我們整個精算出來的話2億2千180萬總共的話是6億4千681萬"},{"start":5826.9,"end":5846.488,"text":"用故宮的預算來算的話超過20%的這個凍結的話在過去的話是前所未有的因為過去的凍結的話最高最高都不會超過3%現在不會超過3%現在的話是20%基本上來講的話如果不解凍的話對故宮接下來的業務運作絕對會有影響"},{"start":5848.979,"end":5864.814,"text":"所以你的解凍案我知道您已經送了嘛是 已經送了好 那就等到委員會來排的時候我們就要進速來排解凍案也希望我們藍白委員共同來支持解凍OK 謝謝院長 謝謝主席"},{"start":5866.743,"end":5879.967,"text":"好 謝謝林一錦召委的質詢我們官員請回座那相關的這個凍結案我想各黨都有我們也各黨一起來努力那接下來我們請陳秀寶委員質詢謝主席 請蕭院長請院長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":5891.544,"end":5903.516,"text":"院長早,那其實一開始呢,還是要延續一下剛才林行委員非常關心的關於我們故宮的預算的部分那其實根據故宮這邊提供的資料呢,大陸地區的旅費刪減了80%那國外旅費刪減了178萬多,國內旅費也刪減了81萬多"},{"start":5910.623,"end":5925.576,"text":"那其中呢,國外的旅費部分呢,我想剛才院長您有講到,也影響到了說今年度跟捷克國家博物館以及要跟法國的卡布朗利的龍的展覽,相關的這個都還是會有影響"},{"start":5928.078,"end":5950.878,"text":"那目前你們遇到的這些相關的困境你們剛剛院長說了你們會趕快去尋求其他的協助那針對大陸地區的旅費的部分剛剛您也講了就是說像大陸今年的這個考古的這個考古瓷器學會2025年這個年會可能你們也沒有辦法參加了那相關的考察你們也不去了沒辦法去"},{"start":5952.299,"end":5969.404,"text":"那其實這些相關的預算被這樣的惡意的刪減影響是真的是非常大啦其實這不單是漠視我們文化交流也是阻擋我們台灣的文化走進世界因為其中的這個媒體政策跟業務宣導費被刪減了60%這對這個業務宣導費這個被刪減的部分相關於我們故宮這邊的相關的宣傳設計這個部分對我們故宮的影響大概有哪些院長這邊是說明一下"},{"start":5984.154,"end":6008.033,"text":"當然是理會的部分的話就是我剛講的就是考察的部分的話我們就先擱置還有公文在我桌上同仁要出去洽展借展的我沒有辦法批不下去那另外的話就是國外的交流展覽的部分基本上來講的話我們會全力然後就是維持原來的一個一個一個運作方式不會因為經會的被刪減就是產生落差這個部分的話"},{"start":6012.256,"end":6029.706,"text":"跟委員會這邊保證就是說跟國人保證就是說我們一定會讓這個文路的布卸展壓印什麼都正常的進行那當然經費的部分的話就是說其實我們有一些社會贊助的一個方案在進行那相關的宣傳跟設計的部分受到影響的有哪些"},{"start":6032.768,"end":6051.037,"text":"宣傳受到影響的話是一定的那現在的話我們找了那個觀光署然後找了外交部那外交部他們現在也同意有一個歐洲文化藝術年的計畫希望透過整合借力使力的方式然後讓各個"},{"start":6051.937,"end":6057.48,"text":"歐洲的主管單位來共同進行宣傳多元那就是請其他的單位來支援一下這樣子那其實像這樣子慢慢的到現在已經是四月底快五月了這個二一刪減預算的這些影響意義的都浮現了那其實我們教文的委員都非常的憂心就是說對於未來我們相關的業務的執行因為其實我知道院長跟我們相關的這些同仁都一直想辦法在克服困難"},{"start":6080.393,"end":6084.534,"text":"那因為執行業務是你們的職責所以你們會很盡力的很努力的想盡各種辦法讓你們原來的業務可以推展可以執行但不能說成被煽動預算對你們執行業務沒有影響你們一樣在做其實你們這個背後所背負的壓力跟面對的時候"},{"start":6099.178,"end":6105.761,"text":"不是沒有影響我們盡量把那個影響控制下來對所以我現在就是讓院長您講因為我有聽到其他的委員有人說三點的預算動的節約預算你們一樣在執行這個跟好像是沒有什麼關係其實是有影響的因為你們已經很努力的就像剛剛您講的在克服各種困難尋找各種的資源那相關的業務的品質跟成效也一定會有影響"},{"start":6125.831,"end":6141.571,"text":"尤其像我很想知道說我們國內旅費被刪減的這部分我們關於我們這些同仁在往返這個南北縣區的時候如果像這樣子預算被刪減你們會要用怎樣的方式來補救"},{"start":6144.555,"end":6158.245,"text":"根文報告就是基本上來講的話我們都是押印跟不卸展那個絕對會有影響那會有影響的話就是國內呢 國內國內的話就是南北院區你們的同仁要往返嗎"},{"start":6159.164,"end":6178.194,"text":"我們如果可以適性不用南北往返的話南院的同仁竟然說適性可是那個押印布卸展押印那一定是要專業人員我們就把那個經費控制在一個合理的範圍之內盡量盡量去處理那當然就是說我們還是有"},{"start":6180.35,"end":6195.817,"text":"同樣的講法我們還是有在尋求社會支援包括那個什麼那個什麼北港朝天宮 新港奉天宮我們都去求過了就希望說他們可以給我們政府支持院長您辛苦了"},{"start":6196.517,"end":6207.261,"text":"好那關於這個部分呢我想您這樣的說明呢我們的民眾也了解到說你們真的是非常非常的用心喔在這樣子被無底的煽動預算之下你們還是要努力的維持你們相關業務的這個品質好那接下來我要再跟院長您討論一下關於過關文創商品是不是應該要全部台灣製造這個問題喔"},{"start":6220.746,"end":6250.047,"text":"在2022年的時候教育委員會就有委員關心過故宮有中國製造的文創商品那當時的院長吳敏察院長就允諾說會透過契約來約束確保故宮的這個文創商品可以全部是MIT但是本席的辦公室在故宮的這個網站上這個商城裡面瀏覽的時候有看到有三個商品其中一個是迷你百事就是百財如意還有個迷你百事是迷你四方博古價文物組以及迷你百事是迷你"},{"start":6250.988,"end":6265.843,"text":"圓滿博古價文物組這個產地都標明是中國那針對這個部分本席想要請教院長你覺得這樣合理嗎當然委員提醒之後我們現在增加了二十幾家的MIT廠商"},{"start":6266.784,"end":6291.919,"text":"那當然就是說如果要把那個錄製的產品完全斷絕的話會影響到整個文創商品的品項然後跟他的那個禮業那我們是用合約的方式去處理就是說如果你用MIT的那個產品的話那個合約就是說我們的分認錢一斤的話就會降低就是讓廠商用台灣的獲利"},{"start":6293.66,"end":6319.694,"text":"獲利會比較高去彌補大陸的低價商品其實這個有一個重點我不知道您有沒有了解到我問這個問題的重點在哪裡就是說遊客到我國的故宮遊玩的時候他們會希望願意買到中國製造的紀念品嗎我來台灣玩 我來這個地方玩我就希望買到本地的文創品 製造品"},{"start":6321.255,"end":6337.222,"text":"結果他一翻發現是中國製造他對外國的遊客其實包括我們自己在地的遊客也會覺得說為什麼我現在買這樣的東西都不是我們自己台灣自己做的這個部分點出來的問題在這裡那我不知道這樣子您覺得說這樣這個問題嚴不嚴重"},{"start":6342.565,"end":6363.054,"text":"這個不只是故宮的那個文創商品實際上市面上的一般的物件的話也都呈現這樣的一個情況所以故宮現在我們想的就是有一個MIT的專區可是完全要因為有些廠商的禮業之前就已經訂定了如果說現在要"},{"start":6363.914,"end":6383.633,"text":"整個都改的話可能有很多合約上面的問題都很難去處理那我們只能跟委員承諾就是說我們會一定加強MIT的廠商的合作然後另外的話就是就是提供一個專區讓大家或是優惠讓大家可以來購買MIT的產品"},{"start":6384.093,"end":6388.658,"text":"好 謝謝院長 您也願意努力其實本席這邊希望說故宮可以全面的盤點因為其實2022年盤點我們有盤點過聽到這個問題也預諾說會改善但是到現在其實你們改善的這個比例並不高當然院長您說的是因為之前有一些契約在那"},{"start":6403.272,"end":6421.139,"text":"不能及時的所有的契約都做修正的話那也希望說像你們的業務報告裡面有提到說你們有跟經濟部產發署有這個推薦MIT的台灣精選廠商合作所以既然有這樣的方向也可以有這樣的做法的話我會希望說我們可以正視這個狀況並且逐年改善可以嗎是好 謝謝院長 謝謝"},{"start":6429.815,"end":6435.277,"text":"謝謝陳秀寶委員的質詢 請官員回座接下來有請羅廷偉委員質詢好 謝謝召委 有請院長請院長備質詢 謝謝羅委員早"},{"start":6452.895,"end":6476.261,"text":"好 院長我們去年113年的時候啊有跟你提到故宮國寶出遊台中還記得嗎有那這個規劃當時你答應我會去研議那我也講了很多次喔並在兩週後回覆我具體的一個展覽內容跟策劃的一個方向但是我好像還沒有收到這樣子的一個回覆欸那這是我第三次的跟您請討論公文報告就是我"},{"start":6478.724,"end":6501.955,"text":"隔一個禮拜的話我就跟國美館的館長見面看了一道故宮然後我們也談了兩次那因為對於展覽的內容的話就是國美館他們有不同的一個策展的方向因為故宮國寶出遊區的話是整場包裝然後過去那國美館的話他們也去看了大美不遠他們是希望說故宮的文物跟"},{"start":6503.155,"end":6523.871,"text":"國美館典藏的文物用一種對話的方式來展出所以這樣的一個展覽的話他們希望說有一個比較長的時間去做規劃不是說就是故宮國寶出遊期那一批就整個過去不單單只是把國寶搬去而已對就是他們的一個建議是希望用對話的方式去做一個展覽"},{"start":6526.431,"end":6551.498,"text":"國美館的話他有林義山連詞的國寶內建文物他們希望說他們典藏的文物跟故宮的文物同時展出跟大美不一樣就是說不同的文物一起展出我覺得利益良善嘛當然我們支持嘛但是這個部分上我們尊重專業但是也拜託盡可能的幫我們加速這個部分可不可以再麻煩你幫我們多溝通好可以嗎"},{"start":6552.498,"end":6579.826,"text":"好謝謝你那另外我想問一下喔4月17日我們有去做這個嘉義的南院考察雖然我沒有去喔但是我有派助理那這個助理呢他回來以後有跟我分享當時啊陸庫示範RFID的文物提件的一個時候啊有一些現場的狀況我想今天其他的委員應該也有提到我就不細談了但主要是文物的推車內的一個文物取出一件以後再推回庫房"},{"start":6580.686,"end":6602.115,"text":"結果警報是不會響的那後來仔細的去了解你們回覆是說因為文物推車它的是金屬材質RFID無法穿透因此文物進出僅以推車上RFID的標籤作為識別無法及時掌握推車內個別文物的一個數量跟這個品項的一個變化"},{"start":6603.123,"end":6632.843,"text":"我們關心的是文物啦那若在搬運、入庫、出庫過程中如果文物遺失或者是調換這個現行的系統並沒有辦法馬上的察覺這個是非常嚴重的一個狀況那我想問一下因為搬運這大多數都是國家級的寶物我們真的不希望花這麼多的經費結果呢文物完全還是呈現在這樣子的一個狀況之下請問院長目前故宮針對這樣的問題有沒有檢討並提出改善的方案"},{"start":6633.984,"end":6640.569,"text":"因為我有請同仁去針對那個不鏽鋼的金屬推出去做改造可是現在的問題的話不見得是完全是因為推出的關係而是說"},{"start":6655.18,"end":6684.68,"text":"各別的紋路跟推車都可以被掃描確認但是整批的批次的紋路堆在一起的時候基本上來講的話技術上還是有一點點困擾所以我們說是不是還有其他的一個方案投入這樣的經費所以這個部分的話就是我們會找廠商來處理因為RFID的話當初我在國立台灣美術館之後在推的時候那時候比較簡單因為它都是畫作"},{"start":6685.44,"end":6714.486,"text":"他畫作的話每個畫作的尺寸size所以他比較容易去處理但是故宮的國寶不一定都是故宮的紋路基本上來講的話除了紋路本身之外的話我們大小不宜小的比較多然後另外的話放在錦盒裡面所以我們沒有辦法把RFID的這些識別標籤直接貼在紋路上面所以他就會放在那個放在那個盒子上面"},{"start":6715.246,"end":6730.471,"text":"因為畫的話基本上可以貼在畫框或是畫的某一個邊緣或是背後不會影響到文物但是以故宮來講的話比較不容易把標籤直接貼在文物上面"},{"start":6730.911,"end":6746.569,"text":"好 我們能夠體諒啦但是我要講的是說這件事情我們有注意到我們更希望之後有一個具體的一個檢討方案能夠讓這個部分能夠更完善我想文物的一個運輸過程當中應該也有很反覆的一個流程"},{"start":6746.949,"end":6773.339,"text":"那請問一下翠玉白菜在運送的途中有沒有裝設溫度濕度震動的相關的一個監控設備運送的車輛有沒有做到即時的監控我為什麼會這樣子問是因為我們最近啊這個翠玉白菜他有所謂的要這個出借嘛我們要到這個捷克做展覽對不對那整體的這個過程當中我先跟你請問我們有沒有投保全額保險"},{"start":6775.605,"end":6795.321,"text":"全額保險沒有問題 絕對是多圖多 完成的全額那保險的金額是怎麼訂定保險金額 庫供從來都沒有對外有你們訂還是第三方專業估價我們自己有內帳 但是從來都沒有對外公佈好 沒關係 這機密嗎"},{"start":6797.709,"end":6813.764,"text":"好 是機密那就不用講 沒關係 機密不要說喔但是就是由你們來訂定 不是由第三方嘛 對不對對 我們訂定 好 OK OK但是我剛剛回到來問喔 這個運送的過程有全額保險但是這個繁複的過程有沒有裝設溫度 濕度 震動的相關監控設備運送的車輛有沒有做到即時監控"},{"start":6820.612,"end":6844.352,"text":"那個那個基本上來講的話故宮的文物出去的話都是一定是國際化的標準作業橫紅絲氣墊貨櫃所以包括它的內廂外廂的話都有一定的作業程序在處理就我所知道到捷克的這個國家博物館啊當然展覽的環境一定會有控文控詩啊放到這個部分但是我在意的是運送的啦所以運送的部分你說也有依照"},{"start":6845.272,"end":6865.328,"text":"國際的這個標準我們故宮的東西只要出故宮博物院的話就會有全程的介護就是台北的話台北市警察局國道警察局然後包括那個海關哪裡都一定要有專案的介護所以我們過去一直都跟那個警政署做合作"},{"start":6866.208,"end":6893.77,"text":"因為在這個部分上我們大家都知道這不是一般的展覽品這國寶出去都要做一個細節最高的標準去看待所以我想最後我要強調是翠玉白菜這部分這個象徵性它能夠去到捷克來做展覽讓世人能夠看到我們當然是非常的開心但是故宮肩負的不只是展覽成功的壓力更是確保文物能夠出得去"},{"start":6894.791,"end":6921.564,"text":"展的好並且平安回來每一個細節都要做到滴水不漏也要麻煩故宮這部分要多加以我想故宮所有同仁的話都是秉持這樣的理念來處理事情那不好意思因為剛剛真的是聊到這一題突然跳到這個捷克展覽但是我還是要回過頭來再跟您請問一下我們現在目前我們這個RFID導入的一個試行方式目前是北院先試行嗎"},{"start":6923.259,"end":6935.194,"text":"目前北院先試行然後南院的話是七氣庫房現在也在進行所以有沒有打算推動的時間表做到全面普及還是你覺得有困難因為目前的表現並不是這麼好"},{"start":6937.232,"end":6959.353,"text":"基本上來講的話這個推動的話就持續會推動然後會慢慢修正那他整個工作的話可能要到那個北宴的所有的庫房都建制完成所以才會完成所以基本上來講的話我們會逐步推動但是所謂完成的這個部分的話因為持續都會精進都會修正"},{"start":6959.946,"end":6987.257,"text":"我想北院聚集的是全國最珍貴的一個國寶搬運入庫出庫過程中發現如果如果有這樣子的文物遺失錯置或者是調換都會作為一個非常嚴重的一個錯誤不容小覷所以在這樣的前提之下院長我覺得針對南北院的IFID的一個系統設置缺陷管理風險是否系統性的檢討跟補強的一個計畫如果有我希望你們如果完成以後相關的計畫應該讓我們知道一下"},{"start":6987.757,"end":7014.945,"text":"那如果沒有是否能夠提出具體的一個改善跟做法是跟我們報告就是說以目前來講的話故宮不會全部仰賴科技就是說科技只是協助做登錄做辨識的一個工程可以認同但是一定要有人親自去處理所以每一個過程的話最後都還是經過數位掃描之後都還要有人為的辨識這是故宮比較繁複的一個地方"},{"start":7015.345,"end":7033.578,"text":"好 我覺得這個部分當然是要自助啦但是要機器輔導基本上我覺得是也是有機會能夠加強因為畢竟這麼大量的一些文物那這個部分上我還是希望說能夠把這個系統做到最好這個部分再提醒你 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝羅廷偉委員的質詢請院長回座接下來有請吳佩義委員質詢"},{"start":7052.065,"end":7054.95,"text":"謝謝主席 我請故宮博物院蕭院長請蕭院長備質詢 謝謝委員長"},{"start":7066.87,"end":7082.243,"text":"院長好現在的淨零碳排跟環境永續是國際的目標那也是我們台灣中華民國的目標所以行政院其實有訂定我們每四年要進行一次國家自願檢視報告"},{"start":7083.664,"end":7100.008,"text":"那我看我們故宮在2021年的時候也有提出過這個SDGs的這個資源檢視報告那四年一次也就是到今年就是雨季應該要提出下一次的報告了目前我們有沒有在進行相關的盤點目前進行相關的盤點之中盤點的那盤點的狀況怎麼樣呢其中關於這個碳盤碳排的盤點是我最關切的"},{"start":7111.761,"end":7127.437,"text":"我們知不知道說我們最大的比例是來自於什麼來源跟委員報告我們最大的比例的部分我們出盤的時候的比例來源的話是運輸的部分旅客運輸的部分是最大的來源的部分佔了75%那相關的盤點你們已經在做了所以今年這個資源檢視報告會出來嗎"},{"start":7132.945,"end":7161.407,"text":"今年的十月份的時候我們會我們現在正在進行中各單位都在做檢視那我們十月份部分的話我們的自願檢視報告會出預計是十月好那我們有這個檢視跟盤點那重要的是下一步我們要預計怎麼樣來減少我們的碳排有沒有一些主要的這個計畫出來了跟委員報告我們針對於深度節能的部分還有公務車電動化的電動化的這個部分還有那個一些相關的"},{"start":7164.902,"end":7177.639,"text":"電 深度減能部分包括一些空調然後LED照明的這個部分都會進行簡化的部分還有綠色採購的部分的一些加深的部分加強的部分都會公務車你們現在有幾台"},{"start":7179.5,"end":7199.702,"text":"有八台我看了一下八台嘛其中有兩台已經是換成電動車所以你在汰換也是汰換六台院長這部分我想效果恐怕有限那其他我們還有沒有剛剛講到這個綠採購這個是配合環境部的政策有沒有一個目標例如說哪一年我們要達到百分之多少是要進行綠採購"},{"start":7202.429,"end":7210.572,"text":"綠色採購的話基本上來講的話我們是超標的總金額的話到達10%跟委員報告一下就是說那個"},{"start":7219.276,"end":7247.842,"text":"這個部分的話應該分幾個部分來講就是說一個是所謂的建築的的建築的方面從建築設計上面來講的話故宮南院的話基本上是立建築然後是那個智慧建築那北院基本上來講的話我們未來在修正的時候也會朝這個方向來進行另外一個是設備的方面設備的方面的話我們把一些舊的機器包括那個空調的話改成那個"},{"start":7249.022,"end":7272.377,"text":"變平的基本上來講的話它也可以減輕碳排那另外的話就是綠色採購當然是一部分另外的話故宮博物院因為我們的展場的話都是用玻璃櫃看起來的話花的經費比較多可是因為後續上面的維護我們就減掉了很多所謂的展場佈置的家具的一個裝飾所以這個部分的話其實也節省蠻多的"},{"start":7274.438,"end":7302.446,"text":"那另外的話就是我們現在在處理文物的庫房文物庫房部分的話就是以三棟庫房來講的話因為三棟庫房它的濕度比較高那我們要讓它很溫室的話它的匯電會比較高所以我們希望說未來三棟庫房的物件的話通通搬出來標準庫房所以這個部分的話去處理的話也會產生一個淨營減碳的一個效果"},{"start":7304.215,"end":7310.38,"text":"就像我們各個方面的話就是不是一項工作而是每一項工作的話都要去檢討是沒錯因為文化部也有頒布過這個文化產業禁令的指引嘛其中就是有建議可以採用建築能源管理系統"},{"start":7320.467,"end":7326.169,"text":"那我看了一下未來我們在北院的擴展件當中應該也會陸續的來增加相關的系統所以這部分我們是很支持你們這個新故宮計畫的擴展件那希望也能夠這個如期的來進行那另外呢要跟院長提醒的是因為在台北市啊去年通過一個新的自治條例就台北市淨零排放管理自治條例針對我們跟台電公司這個簽的"},{"start":7346.198,"end":7349.141,"text":"用電契約如果用量是在800千瓦以上的未來會要求政府要求你必須要有就是發電還有儲電的設備那我們故宮的每一年我們的契約容量是3000千瓦所以目前你們有沒有依據這個法規的修訂在進行相關的準備了"},{"start":7369.438,"end":7385.298,"text":"因為規定的話是要4000千瓦所以北部縣區的話3000千瓦是還沒有南部縣區的話基本上來講的話我剛講就是說我們已經是立建築跟智慧建築那另外的話南院也是一個"},{"start":7387.08,"end":7402.159,"text":"南二停車場南二停車場的話基本上來講的話它是一個太陽能板的一個停車場所以雖然沒有辦法制止用電因為我們是跟廠商因為錢都是廠商付的就是會退班院長你現在講的是發電因為它這個法規"},{"start":7405.043,"end":7409.484,"text":"也包含到了儲電所以我現在要提醒的就是說因為法規雖然今年上路但是我們這個用量它的這個它有輔導期應該是在116年之後但是因為我們北院我們故宮又是有這個文資身份你如果要做相關的設施用地評估等等恐怕都要及早開始規劃所以這部分我要提醒你們就是說從今年開始我們恐怕就要來啟動有關於我們未來最發電跟儲能相關設施北院跟南院的規劃了"},{"start":7433.59,"end":7463.336,"text":"南院一直都現在都納入規劃包括新的那個南院的二館就是國保館那北院的話因為它既有一個文資身份它是歷史建築另外一個文化景觀所以在做這部分的話我們還要在法規上面進行求一個調適性但是未來的話如果是行政園區的話它有工程的話我們一定會把就是自主能源納入好"},{"start":7463.736,"end":7490.738,"text":"那這個相關的進度也請再讓我們了解另外要跟院長關心的是故宮好客你們去年12月推出了這個台灣旅遊攻略的觀光手冊我覺得非常好因為去年在這裡我也跟院長建議過認為故宮我們是國家第一級博物館應該要去擔任觀光導流然後甚至是要串聯我們國內的博物館群加上在地景點很重要的一個引擎所以我看到你們推出這個觀光手冊我覺得非常的肯定"},{"start":7491.058,"end":7504.922,"text":"但是我去細看一下裡面你們推薦的北跟南總共是十條的旅遊攻略的路線我覺得以台北市的路線跟推薦的景點來說豐富度是非常的不足例如你們裡面推薦的故宮北院附近的景點有五個"},{"start":7509.824,"end":7535.71,"text":"只有五個然後在其他台北市裡面你們其他推薦的點總共十四個裡面只有一間博物館六間餐廳一個賣店跟六個景點其實如果以我們現在台北市例如說台北市政府的觀傳局它已經有一個台北市一百條文化小旅行這樣的路線以我們既有的路線來講其實一條旅的路線裡面可以推薦的景點甚至在地的店家應當是可以更加豐富所以我想請問一下"},{"start":7536.77,"end":7555.027,"text":"我們這個旅遊路線有沒有跟台北市政府的官傳局或是文化局來進行相關的討論我們就是跟台北市官傳局合作的那當然故宮因為故宮第一次辦理故宮浩克這個小冊子那未來的話我們如果再辦的話我們再來精進"},{"start":7556.128,"end":7574.041,"text":"我想這個未來我們也可以來召集台北市的官傳局還有文化局跟故宮一起來討論因為我認為我們這個路線裡面有一個很重要的責任我們要去推廣台北市的博物館群以我的選區中正區來說這個是台北市博物館最"},{"start":7574.961,"end":7590.857,"text":"綿密的地區像你們這個推薦的路線裡面有一個台博館這鐵道不圓區嘛這個院長應該有應當看過這個路線問題是光是台博館就有四個分館你們卻只推薦了一間我覺得相當的可惜所以這個後續我們再來跟你們進行相關的討論好不好"},{"start":7591.758,"end":7609.068,"text":"好謝謝委員因為這個基本上來講的話我們有很多策略聯盟包括聯票的方式是沒有呈現在這上面可是我們跟北部很多管所的話都有聯票的合作應該是有機會可以一起呈現在這個觀光手冊裡面的好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝吳佩奕委員的質詢請院長回座接下來有請范雲委員質詢"},{"start":7623.524,"end":7628.547,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉有請院長請院長備質詢 謝謝好 院長早我看你在今天的報告中有講到你們做的文化平權那也有看到就是說有個身障者參與的畫面那我想繼續追問這一題那在追問前我要肯定一下就是我們看到你們去年辦了多元性別就是博物館"},{"start":7652.802,"end":7676.553,"text":"中的就是多元性的博物館的國際線上論壇那這裡面也有看到博物館中的LGBTQIA plus的平等跟可見性那我想這是非常好的跟當代很多的議題結合那也跟博物館的國際趨勢能夠有更多的對話那肯定希望未來能夠有更多相關的規劃那它也是一種文化的平權"},{"start":7677.673,"end":7693.805,"text":"那再來我針對今天關注的文化平權中的深藏者那我要跟院長提醒這題你看到就是說我去年3月27號就跟您質詢了那去年10月24號再次質詢"},{"start":7695.966,"end":7713.155,"text":"然後去年底的預算案再次提出不過很遺憾的是也要跟院長講那我不知道你們每次答應我的事情好像跟後來我收到的報告都有一個某種程度的落差我去年3月27號是質詢說你們應該要有無障礙的整體規劃機制"},{"start":7718.457,"end":7736.879,"text":"確保決策機制的身心障礙者代表過半因為這個是國際公約無障礙服務有一個服務應該要定期檢討院長您承諾三個月內提供規劃報告就你的報告洋洋灑灑除了我問的英國的VMA他們怎麼做之外"},{"start":7738.041,"end":7755.527,"text":"講了國際的例子就把你們做過找了誰來演講然後看來演講差不多三年會邀一個相關的人來演講就講了很多現在已經有的那當然那些是很好可是我們要的不是一些單點的東西而是我們的確是收到陳情案"},{"start":7756.647,"end":7772.578,"text":"你們之前因為那個斜坡入口邀很多山葬者可是他們感受到你們把工程的過程跟之後並沒有繼續就是給予他們當天表達的意見的回覆也沒有做到那所以才會收到陳情感"},{"start":7773.058,"end":7777.283,"text":"那當時你承諾的部分三個月內給我規劃報告結果規劃報告裡面只有在結尾的時候講說你們已經有一個提升服務品質的專案會議會針對無障礙定期檢討也會追蹤列管可是呢如何定期也沒有告訴我們"},{"start":7791.581,"end":7812.196,"text":"這是3月27號所以我過了半年我再次質詢那次質詢更誇張你們的回覆我問了兩題只回覆就是保護的安全針對無障礙的部分完全沒回也因為這樣子我在去年底的預算案再次要求你們要研議我們用的是一個身心障礙平等參與機制"},{"start":7814.617,"end":7834.679,"text":"為什麼是機制?機制之後就不需要我質詢了,它會自己運作那你們也答應了今年1月31日前提供書面報告我很遺憾,今年1月31日前又沒有回覆後來我辦公室去追之後,你們才"},{"start":7835.816,"end":7843.163,"text":"回給我們一頁的東西裡面說因為本辦去口頭洽詢所以給了我們一個相關諮詢委員會的名單名單本身我看起來當然不錯然後呢可是也沒有講機制只是說你們這個名單是個諮詢委員會好像有個委員會並且預告"},{"start":7857.277,"end":7861.84,"text":"4月2日會辦理提升服務品質專案會議又回到原來那個專案會議說你們會在專案會議中邀請你們的所謂身心障礙諮詢委員參與然後實地勘查議程、課證、嚴禮中"},{"start":7873.368,"end":7878.455,"text":"哇塞 已經過了快一年了然後我們再次詢問說連一個會議都還沒有開開一個會要超過一年的規劃然後終於我就請辦公室把4月2號之後開會的東西 會議紀錄找來看"},{"start":7892.192,"end":7920.325,"text":"會議就找來看之後呢我覺得這個好像不是個委員會吧看起來你們也說是座談會那本來副院長主持看起來很好可是副院長黃副院長好像只有去開場之後又交給下面的人主持那我看這個會議記錄我覺得大家都非常的感謝你們都是稱讚然後但是也說了很多不足之處那觸目驚心啊包含說你們其中有一個地方有點字對不對給盲人的服務啊"},{"start":7920.825,"end":7922.668,"text":"但是那個是無法是錯誤的因為你們在工程的驗收的時候沒有請身障團體來檢驗所以那個是錯誤的因為點字中間距離太大這不是浪費工廠嗎"},{"start":7937.547,"end":7943.291,"text":"你做了一個點子的東西然後我們的深藏團體現場告訴你們說距離太大所以無法辨識然後請求你們未來在檢驗工程品質的時候請他們來我覺得我們深藏團體真的很委屈"},{"start":7954.339,"end":7961.365,"text":"對於做了一點點的事情稱讚不已對於遇到的問題我們看起來是浪費公帑的東西然後就是很委婉的要求而且副院長本來應該要全程參與我們要一個委員會像我們以前在台北市的性評委員會就是主委是市長我參加過市長只要沒有到最後我們是會檢視你這一季開一次市長來幾次副院長到了開個場就走"},{"start":7982.441,"end":7988.706,"text":"那下面的人都會看嘛院長副院長不關心我幹嘛認真做這件事所以我想請問院長你這個委員會是個委員會嗎你們給我的書面報告針對我的預算案說你有個諮詢委員會請問那個院長委員會的定義是什麼"},{"start":8000.977,"end":8020.852,"text":"座談會是委員會嗎先跟委員報告因為故宮之前的話有一個指導委員會後來指導委員會取消了那現在故宮的話有策展委員會然後有青少年委員會青少年做得不錯兒童青少年做得不錯報告中有另外有警官委員會所以我們在討論這個事情的時候"},{"start":8023.394,"end":8049.132,"text":"人事主管單位他們就提出一個講法就是說其實在組總那邊的話就不希望我們裡面呈現太多所謂的委員會就是說太多的委員會的話就會變成說他的那個業務到底要怎麼處理所以原來的話我們也在想說等一下院長您先暫停不需要太多委員會這件事我沒意見可是要犧牲的是身障者的諮詢委員會嗎他不過是諮詢不是決策我知道"},{"start":8053.276,"end":8069.351,"text":"太多委員會是諮詢式會議會議出席費用你們付不起嗎另外的話就是說我們的那個那個服務品質專案會它都是一個專案會性質也沒有去成立委員會因為成立委員會就太多委員會了太多委員會的問題是什麼"},{"start":8072.608,"end":8100.599,"text":"因為委員會這樣的一個名詞會跟那個部會的那個名詞衝突所以基本上來講的話院長委員會是你故宮下面的委員會你跟我講跟部會我知道我知道可是又不是NCCC又不是行政院組織法律的委員會是你故宮下面的委員會耶我知道可是在行政的運作上面的話都是盡量不要再成立類似委員會因為行政院也成立很多委員會那你為什麼不在去年"},{"start":8100.799,"end":8108.503,"text":"因為三月的時候就告訴我這樣浪費我快一年的時間答應我然後最後再應付我們我們現在不是應付不是應付你們的報告就是應付啊這個在檢討因為那時候也是想說然後還有報告不給的時間到了也沒有給我們"},{"start":8115.66,"end":8135.716,"text":"你預算案答應今年1月31號然後最後我們拿到的是3月13號我們一直在去催然後給我們畢業的東西4月2號我們真的請了那等一下那院長那你們是不是太不一致了你剛剛說不要委員會你看一下我們口頭去催你遲到的預算案答應的1月31號上面寫"},{"start":8138.825,"end":8154.099,"text":"本院無障礙討論之相關諮詢委員會名單那你幹嘛要寫諮詢委員會名單你這樣子不是跟你現在說了不要委員會是矛盾的嗎那你為什麼要應付我呢就是說它是一個諮詢會它就不是委員會諮詢會跟委員會有什麼不同"},{"start":8160.765,"end":8179.032,"text":"我說的是定期耶那你為什麼要在給我的上面寫諮詢委員會的名單委員名單上面就寫著諮詢委員會那是那是那你們這是你們應付立法委員的方法嗎一般的用法基本上來講的話就是有不夠精確的地方不夠精確的地方"},{"start":8181.554,"end":8205.944,"text":"我跟委員承諾要成立一個定期的諮詢委員會基本上來講的話我跟委員打包票一定會做到因為事實上我們已經在進行了到現在我催了一年才4月2號才有一次第一次的座談會"},{"start":8207.225,"end":8219.469,"text":"然後開起來很像是一個沒有什麼效率的座談會當然大家非常的知無不言給你們很多建議也沒有追蹤機制然後到現在下次會議就會追蹤啦下次是什麼時候你預計多少開一次這種專案會議我們原則上的話就是提升服務品質的專案會議它每季的話都會召開"},{"start":8233.53,"end":8252.291,"text":"每季都會是身障者的主題嗎都會包括在裡面因為都會包括在裡面是有身障成員就是過半嗎你過半才是能夠所以你這個部分你光是那個服務品質每季開始我個人就認為太慢了啦"},{"start":8253.012,"end":8278.302,"text":"那照你這個標準三年邀一次一年邀一次這個進度如牛啊對 針對不同的事情的話都會召開臨時會議我們可以把歷次開那個扶貧值會議的那個給委員基本上來講的話我現在聚焦在生長者的權益每一個人都會老家裡如果有長者的話其實他事實上需要使用倫理行動不方便的話他其實也是多元平權裡面對長者的一個服務啊"},{"start":8281.743,"end":8306.072,"text":"所以這不是身障者而且身障者的人口數你們有沒有去研究過一下他到底佔人口的百分之多少那家裡的長輩一旦用了輪椅行動不方便之後是不是就是某一種身障者所以我是不能夠接受今天院長的答案啦那我的要求我是不了解為什麼不能有一個身心障礙學者專家的諮詢委員會我講的是諮詢喔你決策委員會不要太多可以理解嗎"},{"start":8310.253,"end":8338.337,"text":"諮詢委員會你能夠明確的決議有待改善追蹤機制我跟委員報告就是在這裡同仁都聽到了就是故宮一定會成立一個身心障礙的專案執行會議它這個會議的話是定期召開定期是多久定期多久的話那我們併著那個服務品質一季召開一次"},{"start":8339.292,"end":8359.446,"text":"你為什麼要併一個服務品質服務品質針對所有人你又跟他併在一起你為什麼不乾脆說這個專案會議一計一次然後是不是能夠院長主持一年至少主持一次然後再來也應該是副院長代理院長跟委員報告一年一計一次對我支持沒有問題"},{"start":8361.268,"end":8384.126,"text":"那既然是專案會議那你可不可以把這個會議的組成然後多久開一次然後追蹤機制人家給你意見不是說你們不做了還要找立委來幫忙問這個都能夠文字化從一個相關的辦法那在多久之內可以給本席呢一個月一個月內要文字化好不好相關辦法好謝謝院長加油"},{"start":8391.368,"end":8404.452,"text":"謝謝范雲委員精彩絕倫的質詢也謝謝我們院長的承諾那也希望我們這個部分呢大家一起來努力好 那接下來我們有請郭育晴委員質詢好 謝謝主席 有請院長請院長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":8418.636,"end":8435.524,"text":"院長早安 院長在1月底的時候有提到預算被刪減之後其實對故宮的營運也帶來一些直接的影響尤其是在文物的保存 還有國際展覽合作的部分我們就來看一下 原列預算數是1億345萬4千元"},{"start":8439.185,"end":8460.854,"text":"那後來刪減大概是一成那我們知道這個文物的保存其實非常重要的就在於它的不管是溫度也好濕度的一個控管也好那這個部分呢其實也仰賴了很大的一個電力包含電費的部分但是現在呢我們這個部分可能已經被刪減了那我想呢包含比較容易受到環境影響的文物像是青銅器等等"},{"start":8461.394,"end":8476.313,"text":"那這一類的這個預算的三減可能有會帶來一個無法彌補的一些文物的這個受損的一個傷害那這個部分我想請教一下下就是說不管是在我們的空調照明"},{"start":8476.573,"end":8505.769,"text":"以及這個用水集中在這個展場跟庫房的一些區域這水電的需求是一定都一年比一年多我們可以從這張表格看到從111年度一直到113年度它這個電費的部分呢我們其實都是在往上漲的那這個部分因為我們的預算被刪減現在文物是不是有可能會面臨所謂的高風險被損壞的可能如果這些文物如果有"},{"start":8506.729,"end":8527.235,"text":"劣質化的一個狀況請問這個責任到底是誰來擔那另外呢其實故宮也是深具這個指標性的國際級的一個博物館如果連這種所謂的基礎的設施的運作最低的門檻我們都沒有辦法得到水電經費的足額的一個支持有沒有可能會"},{"start":8529.356,"end":8536.082,"text":"影響到我們這個修復的計畫的推進或者是環境監控的設備的一個更新甚至長遠來看影響到國際當中的生育跟標準院長怎麼看"},{"start":8542.57,"end":8557.338,"text":"跟委員報告我還是要跟大會跟所有的民眾就是做一個承諾故宮的既定的展場跟庫房所有的運作我們都會繼續維持這個部分不變"},{"start":8559.779,"end":8582.257,"text":"那當然經費不足 我剛已經講過 就是我們的結算數已經超過預算數不足的話 它會用流用的方式那這也是不得已的一個方式那流用的推廣教育的經費 我們會去尋求另外的資源來支持那有一點就是可能也是不得已的就是說本來我們的第二展覽館 北院第二展覽館"},{"start":8583.925,"end":8608.652,"text":"在六月份的那個大都會的展覽之後我們本來要接著有接續性的展覽所以坦白講我現在技術性把它移到12月底就是說那這樣的話起碼就是我有三個月的時間的話那個電影會可以準決下來所以第二展覽館的話可能大都會展覽結束之後就是會到年底才會"},{"start":8609.352,"end":8629.37,"text":"正式啟用所以這個是一個不得已的一個調控的一個措施所以現在已經在開始做調控的一個方法包含我們的這個國外的展覽等等好那接下來展覽的部分絕對不會影響正常的展覽跟庫房的保存維護的絕對不會影響我在這邊做保證"},{"start":8630.171,"end":8639.658,"text":"好那我們再來看一下如果在預算緊縮的狀況剛剛其實有提到就是我們的國外的展覽的部分其實也會面臨挑戰啦這個部分應該也是會面臨挑戰因為我們原列這個預算數是297萬5千元刪減了178萬等於是預算被刪減到60%那我想呢這個故宮今年"},{"start":8653.228,"end":8669.215,"text":"不僅僅是要從這個日方東京富士美術館以及九州國立博物館等等要介入一些比較重量級的一些作品那我們也會分三批到法國跟捷克來做出展的一個這樣子的一個動作"},{"start":8670.775,"end":8685.624,"text":"那在人力的部分我們當然會希望能夠要求就是有專業的人力的一個往返用比較高標準的人力的一個資源現在有沒有可能也因為這個部分受到嚴重的一個挑戰"},{"start":8686.505,"end":8709.259,"text":"那我還記得其實在去年這個我相信這個在野黨的委員他們到這個捷克去拼外交的時候其實對於我們的這個故宮的文化走出去其實他們是非常非常讚譽有加的那當然也信誓旦旦的說絕對會這個我們的國寶要出國展覽的時候也會有專人來做這樣子的一個保護的人力的資源的一個支"},{"start":8709.799,"end":8727.937,"text":"就是幫助就是有專人來做這樣往返但是現在現今我們是不是有可能會面臨所謂的這個出國的預算被刪減而受到的影響那另外呢還有一個就是我們的南院的部分馬來西亞的藝術樂屆展的一個活動"},{"start":8730.359,"end":8745.933,"text":"那我們跟這個故宮來做所知那但是故宮回覆給我們的是說預算數被面臨中斷那這個部分也會就是因為在我們的文化的部分可能在展覽的部分也會受到影響這個部分院長怎麼看"},{"start":8751.614,"end":8768.747,"text":"就是我剛講的就是捷克跟華國的基本上來講的話這是一個重大的國際交流活動所以我們的經費完全都會控管保留所以不會有影響那其他的部分的話譬如說我們跟那個千年神"},{"start":8770.008,"end":8790.946,"text":"就是那個西安雅琪的話 跟東博借的兩件產品然後跟那個神尼斯基借的產品基本上來講的話 依照國際的借產慣例的話都要親自去押印所以這個部分的話 當然就是說我們會尋求不同的資源來支援因為我們幾乎把故宮原來庫存的贊助款"},{"start":8791.747,"end":8808.464,"text":"都掏空了現在等於還是要跟外面去尋求因為押運的往返其實也是需要專業的人力那如果說在人力的配置上其實我們是普通的話那是不是在僅有的人力他們也會因為"},{"start":8810.065,"end":8834.192,"text":"比较辛苦工作的时间比较长另外跟我们报告的确有一个展览现在受到影响就是马来西亚因为马来西亚原来的届展单位比较多但是因为有一部分的话因为还没有签合约所以基本上来讲的话有些届展工作的话可能我们就停下来然后跟中研院跟台博馆跟台史博跟国内的"},{"start":8836.093,"end":8844.824,"text":"史前博物館我們是借相關的展品就是說我們就放棄跟國外借展展品然後用國內的展品來所以這個展覽的確是有影響其他的話已經既定的簽約的我們保證絕對都不受影響我們會想辦法來處理另外其實"},{"start":8855.857,"end":8873.665,"text":"院長其實今年初也表示另外要找經費讓這些活動盡量影響的層面要縮小我們要關切的是故宮近三年從111年度到113年度接受捐贈的收入是掛零"},{"start":8874.946,"end":8899.31,"text":"那如果以這樣子的部分來看因為故宮現行接受外界捐贈的這個處理要點已經明定了所謂的回饋的一個機制像是所謂的這個展覽的廣告露出那另外還有是開幕的酒會等等但事實上這樣子的一個制度有效轉為實際捐贈的成果這個上面我們看到的是零跟這個台博館還有我們的國立歷史博物館"},{"start":8899.79,"end":8910.763,"text":"其實他們的這些數據來相比較的話這個掛鈴是真的沒有這方面的這個捐贈的成果還是說我們沒有把這個成果登錄進去"},{"start":8912.31,"end":8941.004,"text":"根文報告因為這些必須要報行政院然後送立完被查然後也會在網站上登錄我想這個部分的話我請同仁再確認一下因為事實上現在同仁給我的資料有111年112年113年都有監證的金額而且都有單位好那再把確定的數字給我們辦公室好嗎因為我們去看的時候其實我們看到上面是零"},{"start":8942.064,"end":8966.685,"text":"那另外的話就是這一次的那個大美不言的話因為他把所有的那個經費都投入到那個投入到那個展場的設施所以並沒有所謂的回饋但是大都會的展覽的話因為我們跟十一多媒體合作的話他基本上來講的話他就有一定的基本的回饋然後跟他的售票的定額回饋這個部分的話我們有在處理"},{"start":8967.165,"end":8984.791,"text":"好 我們當然也希望這個故宮要主動的去規劃跟行銷還有媒合的一些機制然後來吸引更多的一些企業的這方面的一個贊助跟支持然後讓我們的整個所有的故宮不管是在文化的推廣在國際的推廣當中其實我們可以看到讓世界也看到"},{"start":8985.211,"end":9014.531,"text":"我們故宮的一個利益跟委員再補充一下就是其實我們有一些經會的話譬如說我們跟那個龍山寺合作它是那個龍宮傳奇就是讓弱勢偏鄉族群的小朋友到故宮來參訪那這個經會的話是直接用在那個幫助小朋友來的車位住宿什麼所以它不會列為單純的一個監證金額放在裡面了解了解好那正確的數字再麻煩提供給我們辦公室好謝謝院長謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":9017.052,"end":9029.66,"text":"謝謝郭育晴委員的質詢院長請回座接下來有請鄭正前委員質詢鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在我們接下來有請陳冠廷委員質詢你好我們請院長有請院長被質詢謝謝"},{"start":9046.184,"end":9072.951,"text":"陳委員早院長早院長這個故宮南醫院自2015年開始它已經將近10年了那這10年間我們看到在疫情的時候故宮南醫院的這個參訪人次一度有超過北院那我們都把它認為說是一個很作為文化平權一個很正面的訊號但是去年卻僅僅有90萬的參訪人次距離單年破百萬有一段距離"},{"start":9074.071,"end":9083.876,"text":"那我想請教一下這十年間的參觀人次還有它的年度營收跟同期的北院來比較的話你有沒有看到什麼樣的波動"},{"start":9086.558,"end":9104.064,"text":"跟委員報告就是南苑他當初掀起規劃的時候他一年的參觀人數是數評估是70萬所以一開館的時候就超過而且一直都以百萬人次的一個標準在走那在疫情時候反而"},{"start":9104.884,"end":9128.419,"text":"突破百萬那疫情之後的話再降下來前年的話是95萬去年的話是99萬6千所以基本上來講的話今年我希望它可以到了110萬就是說它是超乎它原來的規劃預期可是有一點它的國際觀光的旅客基本上來講的話那個比例是比較低"},{"start":9129.259,"end":9149.862,"text":"南部的話南苑的話以親子南部以親子為主所以這個是兩邊不一樣的差異那當然南苑的話票價150北苑的話外籍的話350然後國人的話150那基本上來講營收跟那個文創商品都有一個差距存在"},{"start":9150.783,"end":9177.901,"text":"我先講一下文創商品那文創商品的話我有注意到說包含嘉義的故宮南苑那有跟我們的比方說我們嘉義縣的農會也好等等它有結合我們在地的農業那把這個茶葉的產品結合故宮的這個他們館藏的一些美學的這些產品的這個logo等等那結合在一起那其實是作為故宮的這一個文創產品來講"},{"start":9178.922,"end":9206.602,"text":"它是有得到很好的迴響那包含我們跟國際的外賓在交流的時候我們都會自證這樣子具有台灣意向有故宮南院意向的這個產品所以我們就希望說在這個年度營收的部分文創產品的部分結合嘉義因為它是故宮南院它就在嘉義的這些在地的這個意向進去那對於推銷不僅是文化本身還有在地的這個文化本身都有很大的幫助"},{"start":9207.142,"end":9224.138,"text":"那另外一部分南院成立當初是的初衷是亞洲藝術文化中心那近年來它的這個策展的焦點那主要還是有聚焦在中國的書畫、器物等等那未來是不是還是一樣亞洲多元為定位"},{"start":9226.339,"end":9250.937,"text":"基本上來講的話如果我們說把亞洲視為一個大的整體的話那當然就是說中國文化或是華夏文化當然是亞洲的一部分可是南沿的話的確我們是以亞洲文化作為一個廣泛的一個區域去做交流所以每年的話都會有一個亞洲藝術國家的主題展覽跟主題業基本上來講的話"},{"start":9251.818,"end":9276.502,"text":"就彰顯故宮南院跟亞洲對接的一個窗口所以特別提到這個的原因是因為這是在我訪法的時候有法國政府邀請那他們有特別提到我們的故宮那他們提到故宮的時候他們主要針對的還是故宮的北院中國文化為主那我認為我們南院它能夠作為適當的分流"},{"start":9277.062,"end":9301.352,"text":"它可以把整個亞洲文化作為我們主要的一個展演那也是我們未來做宣傳的一個很好的方式也就是說我們當然在國際的這個旅客當然是會聚焦在台北因為包含交通等等都比較便利可是故宮南苑我們自己也要把我們的品牌特色做出來那最後我就簡單再講就是館內的接駁故宮南苑它佔地非常的大"},{"start":9301.932,"end":9328.13,"text":"那許多民眾包含國內外的旅客都有提到說在夏季的接駁的部分那他的這個接駁的班次可能看可不可以來相應的提升不然從特別是對一些弱勢的到年長的或者是身體不自由的這一些民眾來講的話那可能要走大概八九百公尺才能夠到展場那如果在這個時候的接駁車的這個次數不夠的話"},{"start":9330.532,"end":9356.215,"text":"那變成他們必須要花更多的時間成本在那邊那也可能會減少遊客的意願這個部分也請院長能夠帶回去檢討一下是 好那個7212的話基本上來講的話它已經直接從高鐵可以對接到那個南苑所以這個部分的話基本上來講的不是 我跟院長我在講的是院區內部院區內部的接駁基本上來講有我們南北院區的話都有接駁站我自己就在"},{"start":9356.915,"end":9369.358,"text":"院區我常常會去走院區裡面的基礎測試那我現在反映的是說南部的院區蠻大的它的頻率如果可以的話把它提高好 謝謝院長謝謝陳冠廷委員的質詢院長請回座 謝謝我們接下來有請葉元之委員質詢"},{"start":9391.192,"end":9392.276,"text":"主席我們要請故宮院長謝謝有請故宮院長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":9400.906,"end":9421.923,"text":"院長好我們今天來關心一下我們故宮有沒有可能成為我們吸引國外旅客的一個非常重要的景點我們來看一下故宮的人數其實之前是在我們看下一頁我們可以看到就是從108年這個預算決算可以看得出來"},{"start":9423.044,"end":9447.226,"text":"門票收入嘛這個當然也反映人數了108年那個時候是近幾年來是高峰那當然109年110年111年是遇到疫情所以人數變少那112年跟113年有回流可是其實回流的速度還是蠻不夠啦你看都還沒有還離那個108年我們看決算數這邊都還差非常多當"},{"start":9448.707,"end":9477.037,"text":"所以我不知道114年現在定的預算的門票收入預算目標也沒有定得很高啦那也不知道決算的部分是不是有可能會提高我想問一下這個院長先簡單回答一下現在我們有沒有什麼吸引國內外觀光客的方法簡單講一下然後目前故宮的門票收入是以國內的觀光客為主還是國外觀光客為主"},{"start":9480.451,"end":9500.035,"text":"這個目前的話就是以南院的話當然就是說還是以國內為主那北院目前的話就是國際跟國內的話大概占一半一半國內多一點點那當然就是說收入的部分的話因為如果過去平均國外七成的話那國外的票價的話350塊的話基本上來講的話他350塊等於超過200兩個150"},{"start":9508.536,"end":9531.096,"text":"南院是以國內為主然後北院國外多一點點是這個意思嗎對國外一個人的話當然門票收入的話當然可以比國外兩個人國內兩個人越南是這樣因為台灣現在外國觀光客來台灣的人數其實是越來越少啦那觀光產業我們的觀光逆差也是非常的高那"},{"start":9532.657,"end":9552.087,"text":"2023年我們政府訂出來的國外觀光客來台灣的目標是600萬那去年本來一開始訂國外觀光客來台是1200萬後來一直下修啦下修到後來到年底的時候來台的觀光客只有750萬那我看到觀光署有訂定一個目標說今年要掌握印度跟紐澳市場"},{"start":9553.428,"end":9571.907,"text":"我一直在想說故宮理論上來講如果外國功課要來嘛我們應該要有一個很有吸引的景點讓他們來就如同為什麼台灣人很喜歡去日本因為日本有很多景點大家覺得很有趣像對歷史有興趣的人會去那個幕府時代的遊程他們去看什麼德川家康或什麼這一種的遊程"},{"start":9572.928,"end":9589.886,"text":"然後喜歡漫畫動漫的有喜歡灌籃高手的就會去看灌籃高手的一些景點嘛那當然喜歡中國歷史啊文物的你當然可以來台灣看故宮啊所以我們在故宮的對外行銷我認為應該要加強而且應該要用故事行銷就像我今天看新聞"},{"start":9591.087,"end":9605.306,"text":"我先看新聞那個故宮現在在南苑展出朱元璋的像嘛那你們的宣傳就說朱元璋的像展示出來之後發現跟大家傳統民間理解不一樣民間都覺得他是臭頭皇帝啦然後結果他不是"},{"start":9606.167,"end":9628.622,"text":"但是如果人家根本不認識朱元璋那他有湊頭沒湊頭根本沒有人在乎啊所以理論上應該要先有一個故事然後再去推廣這些文物大家讀起來來看起來才會覺得比較有感覺啊而且每一個文物或每一幅畫都是一個故事所以我認為故宮應該要加強對外宣導啦那我去看了"},{"start":9629.302,"end":9651.456,"text":"你們的這份業務報告其實對於故宮怎麼在國外宣傳然後吸引國外觀光客來台這個事情其實做的是非常少大部分都是說我們去外面策展那這個也很好這就是把我們台灣的一些文化或是形象推廣到國外去可是這跟吸引他們來台灣觀光是兩回事"},{"start":9652.296,"end":9677.06,"text":"所以推廣觀光這一塊其實我建議故宮應該也是可以扮演一定的角色那你們現在這個報告裡面我看來看去就幾個啦一個就是這個故宮好客說會要對日本跟韓國的國際旅的青年規劃一些遊程嘛 路線嘛然後拍一些影片嘛 應該就這樣嘛那我不知道院長你覺得效果怎麼樣"},{"start":9679.066,"end":9702.909,"text":"你自己覺得效果好嗎盡量努力因為過去有新聞局的時代新聞局的海外宣傳的話基本上來講的話故宮絕對是主角可是因為新聞局裁撤之後的話這一塊就沒有了那現在觀光署現在新聞局裁撤之後有相關的機關嘛沒有去承接它的業務嘛觀光署它宣傳的都是它的國家風景區所以故宮這一塊在海外就不見了"},{"start":9703.109,"end":9722.617,"text":"那你要跟觀光署講我們就有跟觀光署跟外交部去談這個事情外交部今年他們也會做一個歐洲文化年的活動配合故宮的捷克跟華國做一個共同整體的行銷所以你剛剛的意思是說你之前跟觀光署講觀光署比較重視國內國外去還是其他"},{"start":9724.818,"end":9744.466,"text":"跟觀光署長約五月九號現在不是說有一個行政院層級的觀光的政策委員會嗎你可以在那個委員會提出來嗎那個我們那個副院長是我說我跟那個署長我們約了下個禮拜九號還是哪一天我講的是針對國外觀光客喔"},{"start":9745.72,"end":9752.433,"text":"所以你現在講起來我看觀光署長也不是非常重視國外觀光客來台灣這件事情嗎他當然重視啊因為這麼多國寶的這麼好行銷的景點"},{"start":9756.226,"end":9778.132,"text":"結果他也不認為說可以拿來吸引國外觀光客這剛剛院長你無意間透露的啊那沒關係啊這個因為今天觀光署沒來啦所以我們在這邊討論也沒有他也聽不到但是我覺得針對你們幾項你們可以做的事情啊可以這個你們我覺得還可以再有更好的空間啊譬如說就是故宮好客拍這些影片"},{"start":9779.012,"end":9805.958,"text":"這個我特別去看了有一個非常奇怪的現象這有幾支影片都同一個內容但標題不一樣那那個影片如果是標題是中文字比較多的它點閱率比較高像第一支2.7萬但是你看喔如果是第三支內容一模一樣喔但只不過它的標題感覺中文跟日文是一半一半的那點閱只有42次然後下面那支標題也一樣"},{"start":9806.778,"end":9825.025,"text":"都是韓文的他的點閱只有882次我不知道說這是怎麼回事啊是不是很多人其實是台灣人在看啊那如果是台灣人在看的話那你就達不到吸引國外觀光客的效果嘛那所以這個部分啊我覺得這個部分要再加強啦好不好"},{"start":9827.187,"end":9849.792,"text":"好 這個部分的話我請同仁來check一下因為你們這個是我看是少數幾個對國外觀光客宣傳的做法啦但是感覺效果上面我覺得還可以再加強因為UQ的點列量的話現在是68,677可是到底是國內點國外點的話對 因為我剛剛秀同一支嘛同一支你自己看嘛我都秀出來給你看嘛你們再去你們再看看有沒有辦法改進啦"},{"start":9850.512,"end":9865.855,"text":"然後再來還有在你們的報告的第28頁也有提到一些行銷推廣弘揚故宮品牌的做法總共有四點那其中第一點第三點都是南部縣區啦第二點只是在"},{"start":9866.616,"end":9888.897,"text":"我們的機場航廈旅遊中心放一些活動資訊那等於是觀光客已經來台灣了嘛來台灣之後去看說有顧光好像可以去這並不是吸引他們來的主要的做法嘛那第四點說有一個台灣好玩卡那這個部分我去看了那也就是來台灣之後可以拿到一些折扣那都不是主要吸引人家來的原因跟訴求"},{"start":9889.818,"end":9901.338,"text":"所以可不可以加強國外的宣傳好不好讓有一些國外觀光客他可以為了故宮來到台灣然後讓我們的觀光可以做得更好院長願不願意往這方向去努力啊"},{"start":9901.775,"end":9928.723,"text":"跟委員報告我們去年的話有做一個全球文化戰略就故宮國際交流推廣的一個方案那這個方案的話我們會再精進因為今年的話我要再修正因為那個方案我在報告裡面沒看到可不可以提供資料給我們可以可以好不好詳細一點我們再下次如果有機會質詢我們再來跟你就教然後最後問一個問題就是今年是故宮100週年怨氣嘛有沒有發行紀念幣"},{"start":9930.57,"end":9943.068,"text":"有紀念幣跟台灣銀行跟中央詔幣廠的合作喔 那個紀念幣那個已經公佈了嗎還沒因為網路上好像沒有查到下個月下個月就會公佈紀念幣那大概是什麼造型啊什麼造型"},{"start":9946.269,"end":9974.389,"text":"以那個天球瓶為主要的一個造型你什麼?天球瓶,我們故宮文物元素所以這些商品大概下個月委員都可以看得到大概發多少份?我們總共有三件商品但是實際的份數要看台灣銀行跟中央招品廠總共提出來的一個份數那到時候你們會怎麼運用這個紀念幣來做行銷?會放在我們故宮的一個網路商城還有故宮的一個商店裡面都會做行銷OK,好,謝謝"},{"start":9980.083,"end":9988.106,"text":"謝謝葉元之委員質詢院長請回座 相關官員請回座接下來有請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席 請院長請院長備質詢 謝謝楊院長"},{"start":10007.453,"end":10018.065,"text":"我們看到近年故宮門票的收入不是很理想我們光光以112年度門票收入的決算是3億6千7百7十萬5千元"},{"start":10021.889,"end":10044.639,"text":"那雖然叫109年跟111年的這個年度呢是稍有回升但是我們仍與疫情發生前的差距還是很大我有看到2015年故宮參觀人數是亞洲第一名但近年來的吸引力一直下降所以根據觀光署呢最新的一個統計今年二月份"},{"start":10045.399,"end":10065.69,"text":"二月份全台人氣第一名的博物館是55萬4251人次的國立海洋科技博物館但是我們看到我們的故宮博物館我們只有15萬1960人次它是落在第五名所以要請教院長故宮你要如何的來增加多元的行銷宣傳"},{"start":10072.193,"end":10091.13,"text":"那麼是不是要舉辦一些推廣的活動來提升民眾對於參觀的意願那面對我們的人數參觀人數不如以往的時候甚至是這個被超越一直超越的情況之下顧官你還有什麼樣的方法可以來盡進請做說明"},{"start":10094.855,"end":10116.721,"text":"因為我們當然非常期待故宮的觀眾可以回流因為故宮過去的話國外的旅客站平均整個占七成那現在降到五成的確是一個影響那另外一個好處的話就是國內的觀眾增加但是增加的比例的話是似乎沒有辦法回復到原來的一個榮景"},{"start":10118.141,"end":10138.715,"text":"那當然我們也非常高興看到國外有其他油管那觀眾人是增多可是有時候計算基礎不一樣因為那個海洋科技博物館的話他有三個館每一個館進去的話都算一次尤其他的朝進館的話是跟餐廳結合在一起所以那個地方的話那個人潮最多當然我們不能用這樣來談那故宮自己"},{"start":10143.218,"end":10166.55,"text":"為了增加觀眾然後讓他回流其實我們也做了很多努力包括在展覽策展上面的話我們盡量盡量可以呼應整個策展的那個理念然後跟那個流行的其實做一些比較潮的一些一些展覽那推廣教育活動的話我們也一直在處理那另外的話行銷的部分的話不管是"},{"start":10167.931,"end":10183.222,"text":"門票的串聯行銷管社的串聯行銷然後跟關公的串聯行銷基本上這個我們都有在做院長到目前為止本席給你將近一分鐘的時間回答但是你所說的是我告訴你本席告訴你的數字"},{"start":10183.962,"end":10205.02,"text":"他的結果是如此所以我希望你們要去討論去精進你既然目前的樣態是如此數字連你都不滿意在這樣的情況之下更有討論的空間好好的去精進方案我們怎麼樣去多元的行銷將書面資料給本席我希望"},{"start":10205.64,"end":10216.754,"text":"故宮是這麼重要的一個博物館我們希望要能夠提升民眾參觀的一個意願以及國外的朋友都能夠回到我們的故宮來是不是"},{"start":10217.699,"end":10240.502,"text":"是 我們當然就是有青少年的兒童藝術祭然後配合那個亞洲藝術祭然後包括明年的明年的評會的話我們都會加強來宣導加強宣導 接下來本席要請問民國十四年雙十節的時候我們故宮正式成立所以今年即將要迎接建院的一百週年請教院長"},{"start":10241.303,"end":10267.506,"text":"針對於建業一百週年您有哪些活動以及展覽要慶祝我們這麼盛大的故宮一百週年請說說明展覽活動的話從去年的大美不言其實就已經開始了就是說我們有系列的展覽活動那個展覽活動的清單的話是可以給委員那當然接下來比較重要的活動的話在國外的部分的話就有那個美國大都會的展覽"},{"start":10268.246,"end":10295.922,"text":"那國內的話在十月份的話就有系列的展覽就是避送就是我們宋朝的那個文獻大觀然後還有那個西安亞籍跟那個日本界的五碼圖重要的展覽那另外甲子萬年的話是我們故宮自己本身推出的一個在地性的展覽這個展覽的內容的話絕對不會比建運九十年的那時候的那個內容差絕對比它精彩"},{"start":10297.703,"end":10324.31,"text":"在民國九十年的時候我們看到九十周年的時候兩岸故宮有許多的合作特別是在台北故宮推出的郎士林來華三百年的特展那個特展的話不是跟台北不是兩岸故宮合作那是台北故宮的展覽當然是台北故宮的展覽所以在一百周年有兩岸合作的展覽嗎"},{"start":10326.14,"end":10337.475,"text":"跟委員報告沒有 因為現實的一個政治環境 地緣政治這樣的情況之下 就飛機輪船繞來繞去的話兩岸其實現在並沒有一個非常良善的合作的契機"},{"start":10339.049,"end":10354.683,"text":"我們也希望在文化方面它是不堪遇到我們的政治當然我們也希望在一百週年的時候我們的展出是能夠精彩絕倫的因為一百週年的生日快樂這是不簡單的我們希望能夠看到好的一個展覽的呈現接下來本學要請教在今年三月"},{"start":10366.092,"end":10393.414,"text":"東吳大學跟國立故宮博物院那麼我們簽署了合作備忘錄這個非常好透過這個博物館學術專業博物館的這個展示以及社會教育的功能緊密來結合大學社會責任這些的實質交流計畫故宮可以更進一步的落實博物館的公共化政策達成全民化生活化以及國際化的一個"},{"start":10395.095,"end":10423.394,"text":"但是東武大學在善盡大學社會責任的同時也積極的擴大社會參與提升整個國際的競爭力那除此這個北部的大學合作之外其他的縣市 成為我們台中整個大台中的學校呢有很多的這個功能以及機能都可以來做合作請教院長有沒有這樣子的一個合作計畫"},{"start":10425.555,"end":10445.941,"text":"目前故宮的所謂的合作計畫當然很多包括研究單位包括學術單位北師大然後南藝大然後比如說像東吳大學中部的話目前沒有可是我們中部的話在跟中部要積極合作就是把我們的校園大使送到張師大那邊去"},{"start":10447.802,"end":10466.508,"text":"未來的話如果有可能的話跟中部的地方合作進行相關的一個內容那基本上我們願意來處理好謝謝院長你的回答本期也就是希望我們能夠擴大大專院校或者是高中職以及學生的一個參與讓全民化讓生活化讓國際化的目標可以達到謝謝"},{"start":10475.025,"end":10491.052,"text":"謝謝楊瓊英委員的質詢請院長回座 謝謝接下來有請吳麗華委員等一下 對不起接下來有請何新淳委員質詢何新淳委員何新淳委員不在我們接下來有請吳麗華委員質詢謝謝主席 有請蕭院長請蕭院長備質詢 謝謝委員長"},{"start":10502.379,"end":10529.233,"text":"院長早我在2020年五年前曾經質詢過故宮的時候那時候是吳院長那我跟他提到文化平權的這樣的一個概念那當時呢我是希望說在我們故宮它作為一個社交機構那其中有一個很重要的社交功能在推動的一些活動舉個例子"},{"start":10530.234,"end":10545.374,"text":"當時有一個叫故宮有義司那現在呢還是有這樣的一個活動他會邀請偏鄉的學童進來看故宮的文物那這個活動非常的好可是我當時有提醒"},{"start":10546.095,"end":10573.065,"text":"因為我們的孩子有時候他進入到故宮透過我們的導覽解說他會覺得有一個所謂的文化的一個不對等那也有可能會產生一些負面的學習效果特別是對原住民或者是偏鄉的學童所以我是希望說這樣的一個故宮有一絲的活動可以去結合"},{"start":10574.165,"end":10600.187,"text":"附近像是順義原住民博物館台灣博物館台灣大學人類學博物館等等因為在這個地方有很多原住民文物的精品在這裡那也可以順便去連結讓我們的孩子呢在故宮有意思的活動中也都可以看到自己的一些文物那很高興就是我也是來特別謝謝"},{"start":10601.368,"end":10628.978,"text":"那自從這樣子反應之後以今年度的這個計畫來看我有看到會去連結順義博物館也有跟這個福祿文化基金會因為他們有很多就是展覽這些原住民文物的展覽都有做這樣的鏈接所以我在這邊呢就是表示肯定那我們來看一下像南苑它有辦理一個百萬學子悠遊博物館"},{"start":10630.692,"end":10647.752,"text":"這兩年我特別想去了解我們的偏鄉或原住民學童他們參與的情形以去年來講是所有申請的八十八個單位當中原鄉地區的學校有六所"},{"start":10648.593,"end":10676.109,"text":"那今年度呢 申請的72間學校目前還沒有任何的原鄉學校參加那另外一個南院辦理的叫移動博物館叫聚鄉那在這裡可以看到去年81間學校沒有任何的原民學校參與那今年呢 49所當中有6所的偏鄉學校所以我在這邊就是想要特別了解一下"},{"start":10676.889,"end":10680.857,"text":"之所以原鄉學校興趣缺缺不曉得院長您有沒有探究過原因可能是什麼"},{"start":10688.71,"end":10707.882,"text":"這個部分的話的確我自己個人是沒有探究可是我因為過去工作的關係台灣博物館我也工作過所以我對原鄉有蠻親切的一個感情所以以目前來講我只能說現在的切額還有只要原鄉申請的話我們就一定會優先來錄取"},{"start":10711.587,"end":10732.043,"text":"我之所以會這樣問就是要去對比我剛才講的那個故宮有義司因為之前故宮有義司沒有去結合原住民的這些點的時候也是興趣缺缺可是呢自從有加入這些點之後我們可以看到近前三年"},{"start":10733.804,"end":10759.512,"text":"111年也好 112年也好 113年也好都非常非常的平均大概都可以占百分之二十所有參與的學校原住民學校幾乎每一年平均都有百分之二十也就是五分之一也就是說他是很有意願來參與這樣的活動所以我是希望說有時候我們故宮"},{"start":10760.612,"end":10789.237,"text":"它作為一個博物館最高的二級機關其實它會去跟國外進行交流我們也看到也有在跟國內進行交流甚至故宮也能夠走出去做交流像這個跟著織品去旅行我們就覺得這個展真的很棒南苑的亞洲織品展跟原住民編織文化之旅這個頗受好評"},{"start":10790.177,"end":10808.088,"text":"那我覺得在這個當中我們也可以慢慢透過這種所謂的典藏研究詮釋轉化讓原住民的文物文化能夠跟著故宮的專業能夠往上提升"},{"start":10808.928,"end":10835.006,"text":"因為很多的時候並不是文化不好而是說它有沒有透過這些詮釋的一個手段那我們就是對故宮就是抱這樣的一個期望那我們很希望說其實像現在原住民文化 原民會它有29座的原民館我相信院長都非常的清楚因為您經常跟原住民做交流"},{"start":10835.606,"end":10863.031,"text":"那也有很多的私人博物館像我知道的很多像彭水光他其實他現在已經失智了但是他的木雕作品這是他自己的家的展品都非常的好或者是像琉璃之母他自己也有做他私人的一個就是比較因為沒有什麼經費但是他就自己也做了一個自己私人的文物館我的意思是說"},{"start":10863.971,"end":10885.288,"text":"其實故宮作為我國唯一的二級機關博物館其實是可以做很多事那強化呢 跟我們的地方文物館的連結甚至是私人的這些博物館的連結那甚至是2032年即將要成立揭牌的原住民族博物館"},{"start":10886.149,"end":10903.771,"text":"我也希望今年已經開始籌辦那故宮呢也能夠借重你們這些重要的專業的一個博物館的經驗也能夠去拉拔我們的國立原住民主博物館成為一個世界的博物館所以不曉得那個院長你有什麼樣的意見想法"},{"start":10905.953,"end":10929.827,"text":"我想這個部分我們會持續來推動我想我會嘗試跟客家文化中心合作的方式就是跟客家文化中心同樓跟六隊那邊的中心合作的方式然後慢慢擴展所以我們過去跟客家文化中心合作可是並沒有跟馬家的園民中心有一個比較緊密的聯繫合作"},{"start":10930.307,"end":10951.726,"text":"所以未來的話我希望說透過這樣的一個連結然後讓那個故宮跟園民文化有更深厚的一個基礎那另外的話這些教育推廣活動的話我們會盡量也透過這樣的一個機制請他們來申請因為基本上透過他們的行政的管道的話可能比我們散彈打鳥會有一點點績效"},{"start":10954.708,"end":10979.008,"text":"那我就是希望說 不論是南院北院這一些社教的活動故宮有一絲百萬學子 又有博物館移動博物館 教具箱等等希望故宮這邊能夠再去想一想有什麼樣的誘因那做什麼樣的改變 什麼樣的設計那另外呢 也是希望故宮 不只是故宮希望可以呢 帶動 加強"},{"start":10980.669,"end":10998.78,"text":"我們跟各個原民博物館之間的合作那全面的來提升我們的一個文化層次跟能見度那在這邊做這樣的訴求也希望我們的院長我們後續以後來質詢的時候可以聽到更多的一個改變好 謝謝委員的指導好 謝謝院長 謝謝主席謝謝伍麗華委員質詢院長請回座 謝謝"},{"start":11009.799,"end":11022.424,"text":"我們接下來請王美惠委員質詢王美惠委員王美惠委員不在接下來有請羅明才委員質詢羅明才委員羅明才委員不在"},{"start":11023.717,"end":11048.682,"text":"接下來有請蘇清泉委員質詢蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在接下來有請張家俊委員質詢張家俊委員張家俊委員不在接下來有請鍾嘉斌委員質詢接下來有請鍾嘉斌委員質詢鍾嘉斌委員不在接下來有請洪孟楷委員質詢"},{"start":11050.282,"end":11060.775,"text":"洪孟楷委員洪孟楷委員不在接下來有請蔡易瑜委員質詢蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在好"},{"start":11062.523,"end":11090.588,"text":"今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢另有林沛翔委員張雅玲委員提出書面質詢關於今天會議做如下決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢或相關資料將列入記錄並刊登公報對於委員質詢要求請提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關謹速以書面答覆"},{"start":11091.648,"end":11095.37,"text":"報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"},{"start":11122.005,"end":11132.159,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"16634","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16634","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea001fad9b8cd413af1e7e4de50953ef4df7d7f547ae197440393300fba198c4a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「災害防救法第三條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「災害防救法第三條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「災害防救法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「災害防救法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-30T08:31:50+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T09:50:00+08:00","duration":4690,"影片長度":"01:18:10","委員發言時間":"08:31:50 - 09:50:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1957.96971875,"end":1958.3072187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1958.8640937500002,"end":1961.3278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1962.32346875,"end":1965.5297187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1966.4578437500002,"end":1970.5247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1970.91284375,"end":1980.8353437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1981.0884687500002,"end":1992.0572187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1992.3440937500002,"end":1996.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1996.5797187500002,"end":2000.5453437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2000.8490937500003,"end":2011.5309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2011.69971875,"end":2019.6140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2020.0697187500002,"end":2027.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2028.1865937500002,"end":2058.9159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2059.11846875,"end":2074.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2074.42409375,"end":2113.6247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2113.72596875,"end":2125.3190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2125.72409375,"end":2130.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2130.85409375,"end":2130.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2130.90471875,"end":2135.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2136.97971875,"end":2140.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2141.7722187500003,"end":2143.9997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2144.38784375,"end":2150.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2151.93096875,"end":2174.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2174.8809687500006,"end":2185.1072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2185.63034375,"end":2196.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2197.25721875,"end":2197.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2198.28659375,"end":2199.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2201.23971875,"end":2202.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2203.72034375,"end":2205.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2207.01096875,"end":2208.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2209.55909375,"end":2210.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2211.7528437500005,"end":2215.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2216.5115937500004,"end":2218.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2219.24534375,"end":2219.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2219.7009687500004,"end":2219.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2221.2872187500006,"end":2221.9453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2223.4303437500002,"end":2226.3834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2226.7547187500004,"end":2227.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2324.47784375,"end":2326.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2330.08034375,"end":2367.5428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2363.52659375,"end":2368.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2369.8884687500004,"end":2370.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2374.8834687500002,"end":2379.3047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2377.3809687500006,"end":2377.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2377.39784375,"end":2379.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2379.86159375,"end":2380.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2381.02596875,"end":2383.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2384.0634687500005,"end":2388.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2388.65346875,"end":2389.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2393.2265937500006,"end":2394.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2399.28471875,"end":2399.3015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2399.3015937500004,"end":2399.9597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2399.9597187500003,"end":2401.2928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2401.1072187500004,"end":2402.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2401.2928437500004,"end":2402.9803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2403.26721875,"end":2417.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2417.9315937500005,"end":2422.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2423.02784375,"end":2446.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2446.16346875,"end":2447.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2446.72034375,"end":2447.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2447.66534375,"end":2450.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2450.4159687500005,"end":2453.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2452.00221875,"end":2455.0397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2456.84534375,"end":2457.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2458.16159375,"end":2458.1784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2458.1784687500003,"end":2510.0690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2510.96346875,"end":2524.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2526.31971875,"end":2530.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2530.96034375,"end":2534.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2534.1159687500003,"end":2539.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2539.39784375,"end":2546.7890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2547.64971875,"end":2548.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2549.0672187500004,"end":2610.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2610.82971875,"end":2628.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2629.2403437500006,"end":2630.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2630.77596875,"end":2631.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2631.50159375,"end":2631.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2631.5184687500005,"end":2631.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2631.9403437500005,"end":2636.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2636.5134687500004,"end":2638.8590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2640.9178437500004,"end":2658.3497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2658.6872187500003,"end":2714.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2714.0878437500005,"end":2727.6553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2729.49471875,"end":2731.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2736.5653437500005,"end":2736.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2736.58221875,"end":2794.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2795.00346875,"end":2802.0909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2802.4959687500004,"end":2803.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2805.06096875,"end":2808.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2808.92534375,"end":2814.8653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2815.35471875,"end":2824.4503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2824.65284375,"end":2831.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2832.3815937500003,"end":2835.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2835.31784375,"end":2842.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2842.5065937500003,"end":2843.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2843.73846875,"end":2854.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2856.9684687500003,"end":2857.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2857.25534375,"end":2858.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2859.5672187500004,"end":2862.5878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2863.0772187500006,"end":2865.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2866.3340937500006,"end":2894.5997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2894.80221875,"end":2910.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2910.6309687500006,"end":2914.7653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2914.7822187500005,"end":2948.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2950.6922187500004,"end":2952.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2954.16846875,"end":2971.8028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2972.35971875,"end":2972.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2973.20346875,"end":2975.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2976.2409687500003,"end":2981.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2981.8097187500007,"end":2983.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2983.1934687500006,"end":2987.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2987.9353437500004,"end":2997.4528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2997.6553437500006,"end":3003.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3004.0340937500005,"end":3006.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3007.08846875,"end":3010.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3010.5478437500005,"end":3018.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3018.78284375,"end":3025.0603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3025.3640937500004,"end":3029.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3029.2115937500002,"end":3031.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3033.8184687500006,"end":3033.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3033.95346875,"end":3034.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3034.42596875,"end":3034.6453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3034.6453437500004,"end":3034.6959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3035.9784687500005,"end":3039.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3039.6572187500005,"end":3046.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3046.18784375,"end":3054.0515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3054.38909375,"end":3062.6240937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3062.8434687500003,"end":3067.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3075.7022187500006,"end":3097.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3076.0565937500005,"end":3076.3434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3099.1247187500003,"end":3102.0440937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3102.60096875,"end":3105.8747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3107.3934687500005,"end":3119.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3119.52659375,"end":3161.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3161.30909375,"end":3179.6522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3179.93909375,"end":3187.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3188.54534375,"end":3189.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3189.3722187500007,"end":3192.2578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3192.8484687500004,"end":3193.4053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3193.55721875,"end":3195.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3195.95346875,"end":3196.5778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3197.23596875,"end":3198.1134687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3199.3622187500005,"end":3200.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3202.58534375,"end":3202.9059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3203.54721875,"end":3204.2559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3204.5428437500004,"end":3204.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3204.8972187500003,"end":3205.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3206.5847187500003,"end":3208.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3210.48284375,"end":3211.2253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3211.9678437500006,"end":3214.8028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3215.9503437500007,"end":3216.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3216.74346875,"end":3219.0722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3218.2284687500005,"end":3218.9034687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3219.0722187500005,"end":3219.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3219.9665937500004,"end":3230.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3221.75534375,"end":3222.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3262.2215937500005,"end":3262.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3262.96409375,"end":3263.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3263.8584687500006,"end":3264.4659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3264.66846875,"end":3264.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3266.33909375,"end":3266.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3266.8115937500006,"end":3266.8790937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3266.9297187500006,"end":3270.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3271.7559687500006,"end":3272.2790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3285.74534375,"end":3291.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3291.97221875,"end":3297.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3297.5915937500004,"end":3299.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3299.97096875,"end":3300.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3300.27471875,"end":3300.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3300.40971875,"end":3301.1015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3301.1015937500006,"end":3301.1690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3301.1690937500007,"end":3301.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3301.23659375,"end":3301.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3301.35471875,"end":3308.0878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3301.8103437500004,"end":3301.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3301.96221875,"end":3302.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3308.5097187500005,"end":3314.3990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3308.8640937500004,"end":3309.5222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3309.5222187500003,"end":3309.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3309.57284375,"end":3310.1803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3310.1803437500002,"end":3310.1972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3310.1972187500005,"end":3310.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3312.2390937500004,"end":3313.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3313.0322187500005,"end":3313.1503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3313.1503437500005,"end":3322.2628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3319.79909375,"end":3319.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3320.0353437500007,"end":3321.1153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3322.2459687500004,"end":3325.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3325.5197187500007,"end":3331.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3330.88596875,"end":3331.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3331.5947187500005,"end":3332.1178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3332.9109687500004,"end":3339.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3336.38721875,"end":3336.4040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3336.4040937500004,"end":3337.9903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3340.11659375,"end":3345.6347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3341.14596875,"end":3342.7490937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3346.20846875,"end":3347.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3347.3053437500002,"end":3348.6553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3364.3153437500005,"end":3364.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3365.4628437500005,"end":3371.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3366.62721875,"end":3367.2178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3367.4372187500003,"end":3368.3990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3368.9053437500006,"end":3368.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3368.98971875,"end":3369.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3369.05721875,"end":3369.4284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3369.4284687500003,"end":3372.3984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3391.04534375,"end":3391.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3391.65284375,"end":3396.5128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3397.01909375,"end":3397.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3397.2215937500005,"end":3397.7615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3398.2340937500003,"end":3400.5459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3400.5459687500006,"end":3400.6472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3400.6472187500003,"end":3400.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3400.9678437500006,"end":3409.1015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3409.77659375,"end":3409.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3409.79346875,"end":3415.8515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3412.18971875,"end":3412.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3412.20659375,"end":3413.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3417.4209687500006,"end":3437.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3421.5553437500002,"end":3421.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3421.84221875,"end":3421.8590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3422.02784375,"end":3422.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3423.3778437500005,"end":3423.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3423.6309687500006,"end":3430.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3430.9715937500005,"end":3432.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3432.03471875,"end":3432.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3432.50721875,"end":3434.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3434.8865937500004,"end":3438.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3438.4303437500002,"end":3445.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3440.65784375,"end":3441.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3442.02471875,"end":3444.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3445.2478437500004,"end":3449.5847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3447.20534375,"end":3447.8634687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3449.19659375,"end":3451.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3450.17534375,"end":3454.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3452.3015937500004,"end":3454.8328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3455.1534687500007,"end":3463.3884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3455.3053437500002,"end":3455.5753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3464.45159375,"end":3468.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3472.9734687500004,"end":3473.2097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3476.2809687500003,"end":3476.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3477.7490937500006,"end":3482.1534687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3484.70159375,"end":3486.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3491.9747187500006,"end":3492.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3495.97409375,"end":3503.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3505.30596875,"end":3506.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3506.33534375,"end":3507.6347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3508.86659375,"end":3511.2628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3511.1784687500003,"end":3513.9459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3513.9459687500002,"end":3515.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3516.8484687500004,"end":3521.4215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3564.73971875,"end":3565.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3571.23659375,"end":3571.8272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3571.96221875,"end":3572.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3578.1384687500004,"end":3578.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3709.6622187500006,"end":3711.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3711.0290937500004,"end":3717.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3718.06596875,"end":3720.3103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3719.2303437500004,"end":3719.2472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3719.2472187500007,"end":3720.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3720.47909375,"end":3720.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3720.5465937500003,"end":3721.5759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3721.5759687500004,"end":3721.5928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3721.5928437500006,"end":3726.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3726.1153437500006,"end":3726.9928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3727.3809687500006,"end":3729.5409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3729.55784375,"end":3729.6084687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3729.6084687500006,"end":3730.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3731.5997187500006,"end":3731.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3731.61659375,"end":3731.8190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3758.7684687500005,"end":3759.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3759.7472187500007,"end":3760.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3760.0340937500005,"end":3760.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3760.84409375,"end":3760.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3760.8778437500005,"end":3760.9453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3760.9453437500006,"end":3760.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3760.97909375,"end":3761.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3761.02971875,"end":3763.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3762.3290937500005,"end":3762.7003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3763.0378437500003,"end":3763.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3763.07159375,"end":3764.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3763.7128437500005,"end":3763.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3763.79721875,"end":3763.8984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3763.8984687500006,"end":3764.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3764.03346875,"end":3768.0665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3766.58159375,"end":3767.4590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3767.4590937500006,"end":3767.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3768.38721875,"end":3769.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3769.3828437500006,"end":3774.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3769.53471875,"end":3769.5515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3770.8340937500006,"end":3770.9015937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3770.9015937500008,"end":3771.0534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3771.0534687500003,"end":3771.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3771.57659375,"end":3772.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3772.0322187500005,"end":3774.0740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3774.1415937500005,"end":3774.1922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3774.1922187500004,"end":3775.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3774.5465937500003,"end":3776.2340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3775.32284375,"end":3775.3397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3775.3565937500007,"end":3775.3903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3776.4197187500004,"end":3781.2965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3778.4109687500004,"end":3779.5753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3779.5753437500007,"end":3780.3009687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3780.3009687500007,"end":3780.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3780.36846875,"end":3780.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3780.50346875,"end":3781.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3782.78159375,"end":3783.5240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3783.9628437500005,"end":3784.4015937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3786.3590937500003,"end":3789.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3788.2997187500005,"end":3790.0547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3790.81409375,"end":3792.6365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3793.0078437500006,"end":3795.0665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3795.0665937500007,"end":3795.9103437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3795.9103437500007,"end":3798.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3799.8253437500007,"end":3799.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3801.0065937500003,"end":3801.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3801.04034375,"end":3801.0740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3801.0909687500007,"end":3801.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3801.2090937500006,"end":3801.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3804.31409375,"end":3805.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3805.39409375,"end":3805.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3805.9678437500006,"end":3807.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3810.6759687500007,"end":3818.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3818.9784687500005,"end":3821.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3821.0372187500006,"end":3822.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3822.85971875,"end":3822.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3822.97784375,"end":3826.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3824.12534375,"end":3824.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3824.36159375,"end":3824.3953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3827.2303437500004,"end":3828.7322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3829.1540937500004,"end":3832.4784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3831.8203437500006,"end":3832.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3832.4784687500005,"end":3832.5459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3832.5459687500006,"end":3833.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3833.17034375,"end":3834.5203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3834.5203437500004,"end":3834.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3834.80721875,"end":3834.9590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3843.78471875,"end":3858.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3856.42409375,"end":3858.4490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3858.48284375,"end":3858.9890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3858.9890937500004,"end":3859.0059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3863.00534375,"end":3863.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3863.59596875,"end":3863.7478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3863.7478437500004,"end":3864.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3864.2372187500005,"end":3864.4903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3864.4903437500006,"end":3864.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3864.62534375,"end":3864.7772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3864.7772187500004,"end":3866.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3866.97096875,"end":3873.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3873.61971875,"end":3874.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3876.8259687500004,"end":3877.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3877.88909375,"end":3880.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3882.17534375,"end":3885.5672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3886.6472187500003,"end":3888.6384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3889.4484687500008,"end":3890.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3890.9334687500004,"end":3891.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3891.03471875,"end":3892.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3892.3847187500005,"end":3892.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3892.41846875,"end":3892.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3893.7684687500005,"end":3895.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3896.09721875,"end":3899.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3900.50159375,"end":3901.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3903.3365937500002,"end":3917.0897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3917.2247187500006,"end":3920.2959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3920.2959687500006,"end":3920.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3922.3884687500004,"end":3922.4053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3922.4053437500006,"end":3926.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3927.8053437500002,"end":3932.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3934.48784375,"end":3934.8590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3935.93909375,"end":3937.4578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3939.3984687500006,"end":3941.5078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3942.1153437500006,"end":3945.1190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3945.81096875,"end":3950.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3950.92409375,"end":3954.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3954.5690937500003,"end":3955.5309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3956.7965937500003,"end":3957.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3957.50534375,"end":3957.5390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3957.9103437500007,"end":3960.2559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3961.53846875,"end":3962.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3962.87159375,"end":3964.8965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3964.8965937500006,"end":3967.3434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3964.9640937500008,"end":3966.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3966.17909375,"end":3966.2128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3966.31409375,"end":3966.3815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3968.11971875,"end":3971.8322187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3968.7440937500005,"end":3970.2459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3972.01784375,"end":3972.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3972.0684687500006,"end":3972.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3984.62346875,"end":3985.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3986.96909375,"end":3987.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3987.69471875,"end":3987.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3987.88034375,"end":3988.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3988.0322187500005,"end":3989.5509687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3989.9728437500007,"end":3996.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3994.32659375,"end":3994.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3997.3809687500006,"end":4002.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3999.2878437500003,"end":3999.4734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4000.04721875,"end":4000.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4000.1990937500004,"end":4000.8572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4000.8572187500004,"end":4007.9615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4006.7297187500008,"end":4009.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4010.66159375,"end":4010.9484687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4010.9484687500008,"end":4010.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4010.96534375,"end":4011.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4013.96909375,"end":4014.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4014.2559687500006,"end":4014.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4014.88034375,"end":4014.8972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4016.21346875,"end":4028.2115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4028.73471875,"end":4032.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4032.7003437500007,"end":4035.1640937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4036.4128437500003,"end":4038.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4038.55596875,"end":4041.7790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4042.8590937500003,"end":4045.3565937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4046.8415937500004,"end":4047.4659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4050.5203437500004,"end":4053.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4057.96221875,"end":4058.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4058.8565937500007,"end":4062.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4059.97034375,"end":4061.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4061.8434687500003,"end":4065.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4068.9815937500007,"end":4069.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4072.00221875,"end":4072.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4072.9640937500008,"end":4073.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4073.3522187500002,"end":4073.4197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4074.2297187500008,"end":4074.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4074.31409375,"end":4080.9459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4078.75221875,"end":4078.8534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4078.8534687500005,"end":4079.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4079.07284375,"end":4079.0897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4079.0897187500004,"end":4079.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4079.7478437500004,"end":4079.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4080.5409687500005,"end":4080.5578437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4080.9459687500002,"end":4080.9797187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4081.1484687500006,"end":4092.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4083.7472187500007,"end":4083.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4083.76409375,"end":4084.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4084.48971875,"end":4084.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4084.79346875,"end":4085.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4085.56971875,"end":4085.6540937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4093.0115937500004,"end":4094.9522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4093.0790937500005,"end":4099.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4099.491593750001,"end":4101.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4101.702218750001,"end":4102.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4102.2928437499995,"end":4104.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4106.106593750001,"end":4106.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4106.1572187500005,"end":4106.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4107.10221875,"end":4107.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4107.11909375,"end":4107.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4107.15284375,"end":4108.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4107.169718749999,"end":4107.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4108.60409375,"end":4108.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4109.4647187499995,"end":4109.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4109.9540937500005,"end":4112.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4110.00471875,"end":4111.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4111.70909375,"end":4111.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4111.911593750001,"end":4112.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4112.569718750001,"end":4112.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4113.1434687500005,"end":4113.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4113.34596875,"end":4113.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4113.71721875,"end":4113.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4113.85221875,"end":4113.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4113.885968750001,"end":4113.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4113.90284375,"end":4113.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4113.936593750001,"end":4114.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4114.29096875,"end":4119.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4114.69596875,"end":4114.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4118.104718750001,"end":4119.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4119.80909375,"end":4119.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4119.842843750001,"end":4119.876593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4119.876593749999,"end":4121.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4123.47096875,"end":4123.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4123.79159375,"end":4123.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4123.8759687500005,"end":4123.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4123.97721875,"end":4124.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4124.567843750001,"end":4125.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4126.79534375,"end":4133.798468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4135.09784375,"end":4137.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4137.747218750001,"end":4137.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4137.7978437500005,"end":4140.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4143.889718750001,"end":4145.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4151.432843750001,"end":4151.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4154.149718750001,"end":4161.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4160.22471875,"end":4168.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4166.4178437499995,"end":4166.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4168.84784375,"end":4170.737843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4172.340968750001,"end":4172.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4172.86409375,"end":4176.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4177.42034375,"end":4178.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4181.53784375,"end":4183.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4183.61346875,"end":4185.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4185.11534375,"end":4185.689093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4185.689093749999,"end":4185.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4185.99284375,"end":4186.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4186.00971875,"end":4186.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4186.920968750001,"end":4187.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4187.30909375,"end":4187.342843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4187.342843750001,"end":4187.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4187.477843750001,"end":4187.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4187.62971875,"end":4187.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4187.64659375,"end":4188.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4188.96284375,"end":4189.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4190.3465937500005,"end":4196.100968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4196.64096875,"end":4197.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4200.28596875,"end":4205.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4203.9647187499995,"end":4204.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4206.10784375,"end":4210.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4206.52971875,"end":4206.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4206.5634687500005,"end":4206.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4206.63096875,"end":4206.884093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4206.884093750001,"end":4207.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4210.61346875,"end":4227.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4228.9228437500005,"end":4228.956593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4228.956593749999,"end":4230.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4228.97346875,"end":4233.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4230.28971875,"end":4230.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4230.930968750001,"end":4230.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4230.9647187499995,"end":4231.015343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4231.015343749999,"end":4231.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4231.3865937499995,"end":4231.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4231.4540937500005,"end":4231.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4231.47096875,"end":4231.487843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4231.487843749999,"end":4231.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4231.79159375,"end":4231.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4235.470343749999,"end":4235.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4236.0947187500005,"end":4237.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4237.731593750001,"end":4244.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4237.765343749999,"end":4238.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4242.135968750001,"end":4242.405968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4244.39721875,"end":4248.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4246.70909375,"end":4250.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4249.98284375,"end":4258.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4263.415343750001,"end":4273.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4267.583468750001,"end":4267.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4274.249093750001,"end":4274.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4274.434718750001,"end":4274.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4274.50221875,"end":4274.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4274.7215937500005,"end":4275.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4275.413468750001,"end":4275.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4276.89846875,"end":4283.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4280.239718750001,"end":4285.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4285.97721875,"end":4285.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4285.99409375,"end":4286.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4286.02784375,"end":4286.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4286.905343750001,"end":4287.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4287.02346875,"end":4287.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4287.3778437500005,"end":4288.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4288.79534375,"end":4288.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4288.964093750001,"end":4289.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4290.9384687500005,"end":4291.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4292.1365937499995,"end":4294.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4293.75659375,"end":4296.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4295.02221875,"end":4295.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4295.950343750001,"end":4297.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4299.274718750001,"end":4299.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4299.460343750001,"end":4302.734093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4302.784718749999,"end":4302.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4303.56096875,"end":4309.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4322.950343750001,"end":4323.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4323.52409375,"end":4324.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4324.452218750001,"end":4327.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4327.0340937500005,"end":4328.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4328.02971875,"end":4328.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4328.147843750001,"end":4329.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4329.278468750001,"end":4329.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4329.3290937500005,"end":4330.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4330.03784375,"end":4335.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4335.134093750001,"end":4343.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4343.87534375,"end":4344.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4344.82034375,"end":4349.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4349.055968750001,"end":4349.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4349.49471875,"end":4353.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4350.405968749999,"end":4350.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4353.05534375,"end":4357.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4357.965968750001,"end":4358.050343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4358.050343749999,"end":4359.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4359.5184687500005,"end":4359.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4359.788468750001,"end":4361.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4360.17659375,"end":4370.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4370.470343749999,"end":4371.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4371.702218750001,"end":4372.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4373.794718749999,"end":4376.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4376.663468750001,"end":4377.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4377.96284375,"end":4378.722218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4379.31284375,"end":4380.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4380.983468750001,"end":4381.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4381.1522187499995,"end":4382.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4382.13096875,"end":4382.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4382.282843749999,"end":4382.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4382.60346875,"end":4383.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4383.02534375,"end":4383.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4383.514718750001,"end":4383.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4383.649718750001,"end":4383.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4383.71721875,"end":4384.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4384.69596875,"end":4384.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4386.602843750001,"end":4387.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4389.57284375,"end":4391.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4395.968468749999,"end":4396.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4396.677218750001,"end":4396.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4396.964093750001,"end":4397.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4397.77409375,"end":4399.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4399.950968749999,"end":4401.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4403.8153437500005,"end":4405.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4405.6209687499995,"end":4406.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4408.675343749999,"end":4418.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4418.39534375,"end":4419.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4419.72846875,"end":4419.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4419.9647187499995,"end":4420.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4420.13346875,"end":4420.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4420.36971875,"end":4422.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4420.52159375,"end":4420.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4422.90096875,"end":4423.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4423.03596875,"end":4423.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4423.069718750001,"end":4423.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4423.10346875,"end":4423.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4423.812218749999,"end":4425.972218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4425.972218749999,"end":4426.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4429.6678437499995,"end":4431.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4432.030343750001,"end":4432.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4432.1990937499995,"end":4437.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4438.00409375,"end":4438.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4438.679093750001,"end":4443.454718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4438.729718750001,"end":4441.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4445.6990937499995,"end":4449.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4449.225968750001,"end":4461.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4455.216593749999,"end":4456.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4462.911593750001,"end":4465.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4464.66659375,"end":4464.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4465.79721875,"end":4468.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4472.39534375,"end":4474.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4474.74096875,"end":4474.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4474.97721875,"end":4475.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4490.18159375,"end":4490.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4492.79721875,"end":4494.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4494.34971875,"end":4494.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4494.75471875,"end":4495.159718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4496.999093750001,"end":4498.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4504.10346875,"end":4504.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4513.958468750001,"end":4513.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4514.02596875,"end":4514.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4514.5322187500005,"end":4514.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4514.63346875,"end":4514.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4514.86971875,"end":4514.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4514.97096875,"end":4515.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4515.07221875,"end":4522.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4518.21096875,"end":4518.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4518.734093749999,"end":4518.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4518.970343749999,"end":4519.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4525.062218749999,"end":4527.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4527.89721875,"end":4537.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4538.12346875,"end":4538.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4538.140343749999,"end":4538.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4538.984093749999,"end":4539.034718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4539.220343749999,"end":4539.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4540.030343750001,"end":4540.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4540.36784375,"end":4540.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4540.51971875,"end":4540.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4540.857218749999,"end":4540.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4546.24034375,"end":4547.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4551.404093749999,"end":4551.690968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4552.4334687499995,"end":4559.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4559.892218749999,"end":4563.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4560.415343750001,"end":4560.972218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4560.972218749999,"end":4561.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4561.00596875,"end":4561.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4561.14096875,"end":4561.157843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4563.554093750001,"end":4566.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4567.485968749999,"end":4568.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4568.616593750001,"end":4568.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4568.9540937500005,"end":4568.987843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4568.987843749999,"end":4572.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4575.974093750001,"end":4580.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4585.677218750001,"end":4586.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4587.01034375,"end":4587.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4590.77346875,"end":4592.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4592.292218750001,"end":4593.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4593.6590937500005,"end":4596.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4597.962218750001,"end":4600.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4608.559718750001,"end":4611.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4612.50846875,"end":4615.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4615.19159375,"end":4616.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4616.811593750001,"end":4621.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4622.68409375,"end":4625.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4626.19409375,"end":4627.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4628.13471875,"end":4630.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4631.40846875,"end":4634.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4635.01971875,"end":4636.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4639.575968749999,"end":4645.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4646.005343750001,"end":4654.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4655.11784375,"end":4667.470343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4668.4490937499995,"end":4669.394093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4669.64721875,"end":4687.112843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4688.02409375,"end":4688.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4688.1590937500005,"end":4688.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4688.68221875,"end":4688.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4693.4072187500005,"end":4694.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4694.97659375,"end":4701.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4698.030968749999,"end":4698.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4698.8240937499995,"end":4698.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4698.840968750001,"end":4700.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4700.17409375,"end":4700.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4700.20784375,"end":4700.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4700.22471875,"end":4700.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4700.292218750001,"end":4700.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4700.9334687499995,"end":4705.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4701.33846875,"end":4701.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4701.372218750001,"end":4701.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4701.47346875,"end":4701.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4701.507218750001,"end":4701.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4701.54096875,"end":4701.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4701.557843750001,"end":4701.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4701.608468750001,"end":4701.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4701.62534375,"end":4701.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4701.81096875,"end":4704.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4704.595343749999,"end":4707.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4706.434718750001,"end":4710.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4707.76784375,"end":4707.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4707.86909375,"end":4707.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4708.47659375,"end":4710.34971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1957.998,"end":1970.19,"text":"好我們請主任秘書報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員6人與主法定人數好我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議意思錄"},{"start":1970.953,"end":1991.332,"text":"立法院第十一届第三会期内政委员会第十三次全体委员会议议事录时间114年4月23日星期三上午95分至下午2027分114年4月24日星期四上午99分至下午15分地点红楼202会议室出席委员苏巧慧委员等14人练习委员叶元之委员等24人"},{"start":1992.513,"end":2019.407,"text":"列席官员4月23日内政部部长刘世芳及相关人员法务部参事文化部教育部环境部卫生福利部交通部行政院消费者保护处等机关代表及相关人员4月24日内政部部长刘世芳及相关人员原住民族委员会副主任委员古纵格拉法案及相关人员国家住宅及都市更新中心卫生福利部法务部财政部教育部等机关代表及相关人员主席牛兆琪委员许婷"},{"start":2020.314,"end":2047.692,"text":"4月23日报告事项宣读上次会议议事录决定确定讨论事项审查社会秩序维护法修正草案计时一案讨论事项合并询答委员高金素梅王洪威罗廷伟台湾民众党党团代表委员蔓玉珍说明提案要旨内政部部长刘世芳报告委员苏巧慧等17人质询由内政部部长刘世芳及相关人员环境部大气环境司专门委员谢仁硕文化部影视及流行音乐发展司副司长严荣鑫"},{"start":2048.172,"end":2073.843,"text":"卫生福利部医事司检任记证吕念慈教育部体育署运动产业及企划组检任视察吴伟明交通部公共运输及检理司副司长胡迪奇行政院消费者保护处副处长陈兴宏答复说明登记发言委员除不在场者外其余均已发言完毕询答结束委员定确中所提书面质询列入记录刊登公报书面质询及未及答复部分及相关机关于一周内另以书面答复并复制本会"},{"start":2074.523,"end":2096.746,"text":"决议一第九条第六十四条第七十二条第八十九条委员高金素梅等四人所提修正动议及附带决议均予以保留二讨论事项所列议案均令定期继续审查四月二十四日讨论事项审查住宅法修正草案第二十案讨论事项合并询答委员林倩琪苏巧慧高金素梅台湾民众党党团代表委员麦玉珍"},{"start":2097.367,"end":2125.171,"text":"罗志强 徐欣盈 翁晓琳 黄建豪说明提案要旨内政部部长刘世芳报告委员徐欣盈等18人质询由内政部部长刘世芳及相关人员财政部副税署副组长倪立新原住民组委员会副主任委员古纵格拉法案答复说明登记发言委员除不在场者外其余均已发言完毕 询答结束委员丁学忠 高金素梅 邱振军 黄建斌所提书面质询列入记录刊登公榜"},{"start":2125.971,"end":2134.715,"text":"書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關與一周內另以書面答覆並附資本會決議以上個案均另定其繼續審查條文已宣讀宣讀完畢好請問各位委員上次會議意思錄有無錯誤或遺漏好沒有了我們意思錄確定那我們現在進行繼續進行討論事項請宣讀"},{"start":2151.977,"end":2152.297,"text":"宣读完毕"},{"start":2174.929,"end":2199.134,"text":"好本日審查之法案約定本會於114年3月19日本會期第四次全體委員會會議報告及詢答結束並決議均定定期繼續審查所以我們本次會議繼續進行審查我們現在介紹在場委員及列席官員我們有劉許廷昭為丁學忠委員吳祺銘委員"},{"start":2204.269,"end":2227.263,"text":"王美惠委員黃婕委員李柏毅委員我們有內政部政務次長馬世元消防署長蕭煥章我們現在我們就先進行協商好"},{"start":2324.683,"end":2326.126,"text":"第三條你們說明一下"},{"start":2330.24,"end":2356.848,"text":"第三條委員所提案就是配合我們行政院主改把部會名稱做一個調整就第三款的含害土石流大規模崩塌森林火災跟動植物易災這個部分現在是農委會改成農業部那這個是我們機關主管我們支持這樣的一個修正那在第五款裡面就是毒性及關注化學物品災害"},{"start":2358.028,"end":2370.52,"text":"那個還有懸浮地位置的一個物質災害不是啦你們就有沒有意見就好了我們同意就支持就好你不用講那麼我們不是對啊第七環再來謝依鳳的都一樣嘛都一樣嘛好"},{"start":2381.209,"end":2393.294,"text":"那我們第三條就就大家沒有意見就照這樣好不好就照這樣修正好那再來第19條"},{"start":2403.733,"end":2422.471,"text":"跟各位委員報告就是針對所謂官員管線要不要制定專法這件事情我們是考慮到行政院在106年他已經決議違規地方自行在管理那宜蘭縣政府也即將會在做廢管所以未來只有高雄市政府會有所謂的管線官員管線那目前他們其實有訂定兩項的法案在做管理"},{"start":2423.092,"end":2447.331,"text":"那對於經濟部後續呢我們當然也會秉持的中央立法監督地方檢查監理跟業者自治管理的三種的管理模式來運作讓它順暢那實際上就經濟部來講我們也成立所謂的工業管線諮詢中心我們會跟地方政府、高雄市政府共同來好好做相關的工業管線的查核管理跟監督以上所以希望委員能夠維持不是啦對我們是建議"},{"start":2448.031,"end":2450.414,"text":"這個我們都已經詢答過了嘛你說一下"},{"start":2458.386,"end":2484.341,"text":"那我在這邊雖然那個賴文偉沒有來啦那但是其實我們兩位高雄委員還是要表達一下高雄的立場就是我們高雄雖然有自治的管自治的條例就是管這個既有的工業管線可是過去我們為什麼會想要修到中央就是因為我們這些運用的單位都是經濟部管轄的工業部的工業的廠商這些工業區的廠商其實過去都是跟經濟部對接的嘛"},{"start":2484.901,"end":2509.807,"text":"所以變成說我們在地方想要管理他們其實一直都有很大的困難包括之前過去發生所有的事情都是跟經濟部在這邊沒有辦法好好的處理然後還有我們現在一直在討論就是我們大社工業區的到底要遷村或怎麼落日這件事然後我們高雄其實也都同意啦我們也都送上來啦那可是每次擺在中央你們審了多少次沒有進度"},{"start":2511.004,"end":2529.853,"text":"就是因為這樣所以我們才想說是不是既然都是經濟部管轄的我們是不是就統一處理所以我們會覺得剛剛的這個經濟部的回答我不是很滿意甚至會覺得有一點推卸責任這個高雄的從我們高雄的立場聽起來不是很開心"},{"start":2531.213,"end":2546.089,"text":"謝謝委員指教那實際上在整個我講一下我一起講完陳黃鐵委員剛講的這一些高雄市現在有的既有公縣管理自治條例以及這些收費辦法你知道從什麼時候來的嗎"},{"start":2547.734,"end":2566.729,"text":"是七爆以後七爆以後剛剛是趕快修的那我們現在希望把這個法放進來希望不管是高雄全國各縣市有工業管線的不要是地方自治事項而是中央尤其經濟部面對這些工業管線可以有一套管理跟"},{"start":2567.89,"end":2585.521,"text":"甚至圖說等等相關的這些條例都可以納進來那你剛剛講說高雄市已經有兩個自治條例了你把這個結果放到今天的說明來了我覺得還是會希望經濟部比較負責一點的"},{"start":2587.202,"end":2609.728,"text":"把這個條例納出來那不管是圖說不管是各縣市要怎麼管理做一個母法來管理我們會希望這樣子會比較負責任一點要不然其實很多縣市長改選完之後縣市長對這個管縣有沒有概念或者是各縣市的這些組織"},{"start":2611.088,"end":2634.215,"text":"組織的有做一些改組的時候那這些管理的單位會不會不見等等的我希望中央還是有個母法可以讓縣市政府可以去有這個概念可以去制定這個請你們再考慮一下不是 蘇巧惠先舉手的啦蘇巧惠委員是是是"},{"start":2641.153,"end":2658.076,"text":"對 我們其實因為各行各業這個各行如隔山我們也是像剛剛延續博弈委員講的其實大家都會想要知道首先比如說工業管線好了現在給我們資料是只剩下高雄有那可是在未來在什麼樣的情況下其他地方也會不會有"},{"start":2658.777,"end":2674.614,"text":"就現在只有高雄有就算現在只有高雄有那未來在其他地方會不會有其實我們也不太知道那如果是在這樣的狀況下是不是其實把這個放入法了之後其實你可以訂比較通則一點的部分嗎就是說"},{"start":2675.635,"end":2703.94,"text":"你訂一個大綱規範就有點像是我們在做交通規則啊等等其實它也會有一個通則的部分至少讓大家知道說啊原來國家對這件事情的標準就是是這樣那未來地方如果因地制宜還要有更細部的等等的之類的我覺得在做地方的去規劃自治事項的規劃我覺得其實這也是一個道理所以這是當初我們支持賴瑞榮賴委員版本提出的時候我們有支持他的原因就是整件事情"},{"start":2704.6,"end":2727.553,"text":"你不一定我的想像是你不一定現在入法然後叫你我們現在是入法要求中央要提出一套規則但這套規則不一定要像現在高雄的戲成這樣也許它是一個比較通案性的狀況我們這是我們的理解啦但我們不知道實際專業上面是不是可以這樣才新所以等一下也請回答看看這樣我們請劉徐鼎召委"},{"start":2736.698,"end":2753.275,"text":"我看一下它的賴樂仁委員的提案大概就兩點第一個叫做工業管線的防救業務計畫是要交給立法院被查等於提升它的監督成績第二個就是說要有專法定制我覺得第一點就是說送立法院被查這件事情我覺得行政院應該要接受"},{"start":2753.695,"end":2777.857,"text":"因為我覺得不管怎麼樣 它不管是地域性 單獨性或怎麼樣你讓相關的業務計畫提升監督層級我想這個部分黨派大家都應該要支持啦尤其是高雄的委員 我覺得他們站在高雄發展的立場希望多了解一點狀況 以利監督 以利精進我覺得這是好事 我希望行政院這邊可以予以支持那第二段的部分 是不是一定要以專法定制然後有沒有必要寫在這個裡面 我覺得有討論空間因為即便不寫 還是可以訂專法"},{"start":2779.258,"end":2779.498,"text":"王美惠惠"},{"start":2805.12,"end":2812.183,"text":"主席 在這裡我要跟很多人說 現在要修法是可以問題修出來比較透明化不然你們都覺得這個麻煩 這個不用修 不用做了這樣就不知道大家的意見 什麼事情發生跟在那裡說要來補救什麼 要來補救什麼都不會有"},{"start":2828.689,"end":2841.717,"text":"我們現在就有這個情形看要怎麼修可以讓他們更了解各地人的更了解尤其你們看到高雄這個情形的時候你們應該是要更嚴謹想看怎麼修可以更好才對不是說我們不修這樣就覺得不知道今天這麼多人來開會以上你們回答一下"},{"start":2860.233,"end":2880.186,"text":"各位委員好 謝謝各位指教跟各位委員報告 實際上在災防法裡面它有律定22種不同的管線的管理機制就目前來講我們所看到在高雄市它所訂定的不管是既有管線它的自治條例也好或相關的管理辦法也好"},{"start":2880.606,"end":2904.333,"text":"他對於整個管線的安全維護管理檢查還有維護等等之類其實都分別都定有條例他很清楚的去界定什麼時候該去提他們的計畫什麼時候應該去做什麼樣的演練等等之類的那我們是考慮到是說以目前大概院裡面也希望是朝向中央來去做立法監督由地方來好好做整個監察的管理的部分"},{"start":2904.853,"end":2927.687,"text":"那地方那業者他當然也要肩負起所謂的自主管理我們是希望藉由這種所謂的地方中央跟業者我們三方面大家共同來做努力那當然整個現在目前整個機制如果剛剛市政府在訂定一些規範的時候我們一樣會follow整個災防法還有相關的業務計劃就是經濟部所訂的跟要求業者要提出來的我們會共同來要求"},{"start":2928.147,"end":2948.176,"text":"在怎麼樣納入這個地方方面的管理機制更嚴謹那我們是希望是說因為現在針對整個工業管線是其中整個災防法裡面22種綠定其中的一項那是不是可以尋現在目前這樣的管理機制在那我們再強化怎麼樣中央跟地方共同來做好這樣的管理跟監督謝謝委員來內政部說明一下"},{"start":2954.381,"end":2975.409,"text":"委員好 我想剛剛提到的兩個修正的兩項第一個是因為我們在澳門有22個災害如果大家回頭看我們第三條的話這22個災害我們目前都是在行政機關去審議完以後就直接公告沒有到立法院被查這個程序"},{"start":2976.309,"end":3003.012,"text":"那如果說針對工業管線災害單獨送到立法院被查的話他就會跟其他的災害的這個計畫有不一樣的做法我想這個是第一個要請我們大院考量的那第二個就是說如果工業管線需要專法的話因為這個是牽涉到在經濟部主管的這個轄下要不要去訂那訂在災防法的話因為每一個災害如果都寫在這裡的話那每一個都要訂專法"},{"start":3004.253,"end":3031.314,"text":"比如說跟各個地方我們像地政我們就沒有專法所以每一個都要訂專法的話那等於是這個災防法會變得很龐大所以內政部這邊是不是建議就是說如果這個部分我們覺得很重要事實上我們也覺得很重要那能不能夠用附帶決議的方式就是未來請經濟部去對專法的部分去做處理那災防法的話我們是原則上因為它是一個比較架構性的法律來訂定那內政部最後可以補充 謝謝"},{"start":3033.8,"end":3060.691,"text":"還有沒有委員我個人看了一下啦齁其實災防法如果把它寫的像賴委員的版本寫這樣好像不是法律的條文是說你要做什麼做什麼做什麼這樣入法好像也是我的建議是這樣啦我們做組決議然後要求經濟部或什麼的他們要去處理這個齁齁"},{"start":3063.942,"end":3067.188,"text":"我們這樣子來處理啦我不知道各位委員"},{"start":3075.948,"end":3096.119,"text":"主席我是覺得剛剛內政部和安京部這樣的說明其實也是有它的道理因為就是說確實整部的災防法從它的橫平性來看的話如果單獨把一種災害拉出來然後寫的跟別人都不太一樣確實是有它的就不平衡的狀態是沒有錯"},{"start":3102.662,"end":3122.009,"text":"那所以如果是這樣的話是不是應該是說其實主管機關都了解怎麼運作啦反而是我們平常這不是我們每天日常的狀況嘛所以是有什麼樣的方式可以讓彼此之間或者是要了解的"},{"start":3122.549,"end":3152.049,"text":"人可以更快速的进去然后也在比如说我们委员们之间要监督行政部门到底做的好不好对不对的时候那我们也有第一有脉络可循有步骤可循那第二的话就是说未来我们确实你有这个可以做的更好你现况是如何那你将来我们才有一个比较的基准所以这个附带决议也好主决议也好是不是能够把要求他们要积极去处理的"},{"start":3152.509,"end":3172.586,"text":"然後現況和未來的比較的就現況基準的這種查核的機制的那也能夠一併說明這樣子我個人是認為賴慧龍委員這個提案有他的意義在有他的那個價值在但好像就像內政部講的我們如果特別寫在這裡好像"},{"start":3173.947,"end":3197.325,"text":"未來災防法或什麼的可能越修越多啦但我覺得他這個方向是對的所以我跟你講你們現在內政部跟經濟部你們現在馬上把附帶決議趕快給我趕快寫出來那我們現在先往下走你們先趕快寫出來好不好寫出來等一下我們大家看然後再來第22條這個"},{"start":3203.754,"end":3217.398,"text":"內政部你們看法這個22條包括內政部支持那再來48條呢48條也是內政部支持那我們現在就只剩剛剛的這個19條附帶決議你們趕快寫出來"},{"start":3250.508,"end":3252.029,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3280.227,"end":3281.788,"text":"一件事很"},{"start":3303.712,"end":3315.459,"text":"主要是今天的協商結論就結束啦20分鐘之前就結束好幾分鐘之後那什麼發言啊不是他們不講話我們沒事他們一講的時候沒有因為什麼只有高雄有的時候我們不說"},{"start":3333.347,"end":3342.437,"text":"對啊 沒有啦 只是他們講了我就覺得超不尊重的什麼叫做高雄只有高雄有所以我們不兇啊在講什麼東西啊"},{"start":3362.125,"end":3366.168,"text":"今天就這樣決定了"},{"start":3392.576,"end":3405.547,"text":"來啦咧,好,我們不再覺得緊張了請問跟黃姊姊有什麼關係?你應該要讓他站在旁邊,很久了耶現在給他來"},{"start":3417.312,"end":3432.141,"text":"他就一直在那裡等著我,都在那裡等著我,都在那裡等著我,都在那裡等著我,都在那裡等著我,都在那裡等著我,都在那裡等著我,都在那裡等著我,都在那裡等著我,都在那裡等著我,"},{"start":3446.749,"end":3460.492,"text":"對啊,那些都沒有了對啊,所以你現在是走路嗎?我都走路了,我就是走地上,大概就到了我現在是走地上,我房間都在那裡房間在那裡,工作車在那裡嗯"},{"start":3496.194,"end":3503.12,"text":"各位委員他們在寫啦那我們是不是休息五分鐘大家可以自由活動好那我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":3505.422,"end":3507.303,"text":"五分鐘喔 你們有聽到喔"},{"start":3533.323,"end":3533.664,"text":"好多人"},{"start":3549.016,"end":3549.036,"text":"唉"},{"start":3576.956,"end":3578.476,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":3628.276,"end":3630.625,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":3642.807,"end":3643.428,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":3669.148,"end":3669.168,"text":"鞭筍"},{"start":3698.527,"end":3700.25,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":3709.774,"end":3725.598,"text":"我昨天在翔哥的臉書上看LMC跑出來,他叫我遇到你,然後問你說你什麼時候想吃LMC啊,對那你怎麼想吃LMC?因為那個Irene,因為Irene很喜歡LMC因為她很大口對,我聽說"},{"start":3734.387,"end":3738.03,"text":"誒,我的燈光哪裡放死了?"},{"start":3758.628,"end":3758.828,"text":"來啦 換你"},{"start":3782.538,"end":3788.64,"text":"請問隨時都可以簽嘛對不對可以啊隨時簽就好他講簽到的你要簽到他要簽到就看你要不要採券就這樣"},{"start":3810.543,"end":3816.846,"text":"我留下來陪你,我幫你代理嘛好不好不是啦,我這樣其實還蠻難受的我們先看看這個佔案,到時候再看"},{"start":3843.86,"end":3856.995,"text":"工業管線管理運作安全維護監督局在房間宣傳請內部經濟部能以積極態度針對不專法引進研議並就委員提案監督的資訊應以適度公開揭露"},{"start":3878.199,"end":3888.182,"text":"我們現在繼續開會每個委員手上有附帶決議了嗎大家看一下有沒有意見"},{"start":3889.465,"end":3901.255,"text":"好 李柏毅委員我一個小意見齁第二行請內政部經濟部以積極態度就好了不用能力 好不好謝謝好 召委"},{"start":3903.336,"end":3914.984,"text":"好 吳委員好 針對我們的工業管線那個農體育我們用附帶決議 那會OK啦因為我們照現有的我們的條文那這樣應該 我們都加強就好了好 謝謝好 就這附帶決議 各位委員有沒有意見好 都沒有 那就是把李博義委員說的 把那個能化掉"},{"start":3935.957,"end":3959.042,"text":"把能化掉好 那你們再去印一份新的給所有委員還是要打字喔不用啦 這樣就算了啦然後請各位委員大家簽個名你們要改啊你們要重印一份給委員啊"},{"start":3964.823,"end":3969.946,"text":"打字比較快 重寫不是 槓掉了槓掉了"},{"start":3983.608,"end":3985.65,"text":"你剛剛講說要再學一次,我怎麼可能"},{"start":4017.429,"end":4041.237,"text":"各位委員大家看一下他上面還有寫委員提案我們這個附帶決議就是我們所有委員大家一起做成的決定了對不對那個委員提案我覺得就不要了吧沒有 他只把立法院劃掉 委員提案不是 他剛剛也沒看到 他只劃掉立法院"},{"start":4043.252,"end":4052.676,"text":"所以委員提案他沒劃掉啦我看一下大家看一下上面"},{"start":4071.603,"end":4076.846,"text":"內政部經濟部內政部經濟部內政部經濟部內政部經濟部內政部經濟部"},{"start":4093.934,"end":4115.633,"text":"舊工業管線運作安全維護監督級災害防救等事項然後應急急急態度對不對要不要直接應急急就好了感覺贅字很多就是應急急就好了態度也不用了"},{"start":4116.263,"end":4125.088,"text":"應積極針對立專法議題應該的應應積極態度兩個字刪掉態度兩個字刪掉應積極針對立專法議題進行研議並就監督監督級資訊應這一句也要修一下監督級資訊應監督方式嗎"},{"start":4154.197,"end":4169.244,"text":"不是欸你那個我個人反而認為監督就是一個罪詞他本來就要監督啊他剛剛應該是順我的話就是說我們要怎麼去監督他們的方式啊等等啦要改掉也沒有關係啦我覺得應該並就"},{"start":4172.572,"end":4194.668,"text":"並就監管資訊不用寫並就相關資訊一語四度公開揭露就好了這樣不最簡單相關資...我覺得監管資訊怎麼樣就監管資訊怎麼樣我個人會覺得是不是監管資訊比較符合我們這次要強調的狀態"},{"start":4200.765,"end":4226.828,"text":"就相關監管資訊應適度公開結錄就好啦那個語也不用吧那不好意思喔那因為我們剛剛那個主持是內政部經濟部嘛然後他要做的事情是應積極針對立法進行研議嘛所以那個後面確實是第二項所以應該是逗點之後研議逗點之後其實真的是應該加個BIM吧"},{"start":4228.981,"end":4229.782,"text":"那適度公開 適度是什麼意思"},{"start":4236.259,"end":4258.401,"text":"現在大家在討論啊我覺得不用適度吧 就公開吧現在大家在討論啊我覺得適度好像有一點就不曉得什麼叫適度嘛本來就在公開嘛並就相關監管資訊應公開揭露這樣是不是會比較好因為適度好像是很模糊的一個形容詞啊"},{"start":4263.392,"end":4271.48,"text":"郭文貴總統,公共關係的諮詢要去揭露,我們擔心有些事常常發生,我們擔心,所以我們想做什麼都要有適度我知道主管習慣了"},{"start":4292.073,"end":4296.074,"text":"所以你們一定要監管對 我一定會監管 你的意思是要改善現在這裡就是相關監管"},{"start":4318.069,"end":4320.011,"text":"可是如果我們寫這樣他沒有試過他就全部要分開"},{"start":4339.107,"end":4349.69,"text":"那種東西不是在我們之前都說是密件的嗎?"},{"start":4360.299,"end":4369.226,"text":"就相關監管的意思就是他們的一定要公開不要因此"},{"start":4381.156,"end":4383.297,"text":"病舊跟...我覺得病舊兩個是對的"},{"start":4408.643,"end":4409.023,"text":"好 這樣子還沒有委員"},{"start":4433.078,"end":4437.361,"text":"如果沒在思考30秒沒有就請他們印出來囉好那印出來好了"},{"start":4445.435,"end":4447.716,"text":"沒關係 可以啊 那就是他要宣讀啊"},{"start":4472.92,"end":4481.185,"text":"對一下啦 這個不能做啊來 你要抓我而已"},{"start":4503.253,"end":4510.099,"text":"要這樣結商結賬也不用簽名嗎?因為沒有修正同意"},{"start":4525.311,"end":4526.752,"text":"哎唷 各位啊 各位"},{"start":4552.546,"end":4566.591,"text":"你們把我們地方搞得 齁 真是一堆我們賴總統又下令了可以簽嗎可以簽可以簽在那邊 要傳回來所以我 我想說今天這個我就晚一點報好 來 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":4608.572,"end":4609.413,"text":"好那我們請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":4612.56,"end":4635.708,"text":"在案防修法部份條文修正草案請行結論第三條依委員賴瑞榮等及委員謝一鳳等提案通過第十九條不予採納維持現行條文第二十二條依委員丁學忠等提案通過第四十八條依委員謝一鳳等提案通過通過附帶決議項宣讀完畢"},{"start":4639.639,"end":4664.411,"text":"好請問各位委員就剛才的協商結論通過請問有無異議沒有好沒有異議通過那我們做以下決議討論事項災害防救法第三條及第十九條條文修正草案等四案以並案審查完略拟據審查報告提報院會討論請問在場委員需不需要協商"},{"start":4668.51,"end":4686.686,"text":"不用啦齁好不需協商那本案與運會討論時由本席張昭紀委員洪祿做補充說明審查通過之條文相關法制用於授權主席及議事人員整理好那本次會議到此結束現在上會謝謝"},{"start":4691.429,"end":4693.21,"text":"謝謝 主席主持人辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"16635","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16635","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc001fad9b8cd413af4be335d15c1ead01f7d7f547ae197440086f9cd3bed221755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請立法院秘書長、議事處處長、法制局局長列席就「3/25晚間本院違法會議及違法表決之適法性、是否有違公務員服務法？」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-04-30","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-04-30T08:31:34+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T09:32:00+08:00","duration":3626,"影片長度":"01:00:26","委員發言時間":"08:31:34 - 09:32:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1829.1797187500001,"end":1832.2340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1833.0609687500003,"end":1835.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1837.9209687500002,"end":1841.4984687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1842.3422187500003,"end":1883.3315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1867.5872187500001,"end":1868.0090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1883.5340937500002,"end":1885.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1886.9090937500002,"end":1896.0553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1897.1184687500001,"end":1903.2440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1904.1384687500001,"end":1905.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1906.3490937500003,"end":1907.6147187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1908.8803437500003,"end":1913.2340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1913.9090937500002,"end":1940.1665937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1944.06471875,"end":1957.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1958.8978437500002,"end":1970.1534687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1970.5584687500002,"end":1981.5103437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1982.15159375,"end":1997.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1997.6934687500002,"end":2003.3803437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2003.95409375,"end":2005.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2007.0928437500002,"end":2010.4172187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2011.0922187500003,"end":2019.6309687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2019.9178437500002,"end":2026.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2026.9884687500003,"end":2028.5578437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2029.5028437500002,"end":2058.5615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2058.9665937500004,"end":2081.7478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2078.2715937500006,"end":2078.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2078.64284375,"end":2078.6765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2082.22034375,"end":2091.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2092.1934687500006,"end":2107.4315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2108.10659375,"end":2110.1484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2110.8065937500005,"end":2111.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2112.40971875,"end":2116.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2117.65784375,"end":2121.1003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2121.5222187500003,"end":2125.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2125.36971875,"end":2133.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2133.7565937500003,"end":2141.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2141.50221875,"end":2143.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2143.72971875,"end":2145.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2146.51409375,"end":2148.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2148.5897187500004,"end":2151.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2152.1334687500002,"end":2156.8415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2157.2803437500006,"end":2159.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2161.4990937500006,"end":2162.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2163.43971875,"end":2166.2409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2167.01721875,"end":2170.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2170.8815937500003,"end":2171.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2172.1640937500006,"end":2173.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2173.7165937500004,"end":2175.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2176.3153437500005,"end":2177.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2177.98596875,"end":2190.4059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2190.9628437500005,"end":2193.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2194.59096875,"end":2198.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2199.13034375,"end":2201.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2202.3534687500005,"end":2202.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2202.9609687500006,"end":2205.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2205.86346875,"end":2208.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2209.0528437500006,"end":2210.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2210.4365937500006,"end":2211.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2211.8034687500003,"end":2213.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2214.08159375,"end":2218.9922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2219.24534375,"end":2221.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2221.7597187500005,"end":2222.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2223.12659375,"end":2225.0840937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2225.52284375,"end":2229.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2230.02846875,"end":2233.5722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2234.55096875,"end":2236.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2236.30596875,"end":2241.5372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2242.04346875,"end":2242.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2243.89971875,"end":2245.3678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2245.90784375,"end":2250.3122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2250.3965937500006,"end":2265.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2266.1240937500006,"end":2275.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2276.1647187500002,"end":2276.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2277.2109687500006,"end":2283.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2284.02846875,"end":2284.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2285.4459687500002,"end":2290.7109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2291.7740937500002,"end":2294.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2296.6678437500004,"end":2297.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2299.46909375,"end":2302.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2303.62034375,"end":2304.2109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2304.90284375,"end":2305.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2306.0672187500004,"end":2306.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2308.3622187500005,"end":2309.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2309.34096875,"end":2310.6403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2311.58534375,"end":2312.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2314.18409375,"end":2321.9297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2323.0603437500004,"end":2325.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2325.76034375,"end":2327.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2328.0722187500005,"end":2329.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2330.4178437500004,"end":2331.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2332.3415937500004,"end":2341.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2341.1503437500005,"end":2343.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2343.81659375,"end":2344.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2345.26784375,"end":2346.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2346.9384687500005,"end":2347.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2348.00159375,"end":2348.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2349.19971875,"end":2349.9590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2353.90784375,"end":2358.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2360.0672187500004,"end":2364.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2365.4840937500003,"end":2366.3278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2367.2559687500006,"end":2369.3484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2369.7872187500006,"end":2372.3015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2373.73596875,"end":2375.6090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2376.08159375,"end":2376.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2377.0772187500006,"end":2380.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2380.5028437500005,"end":2383.5234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2386.18971875,"end":2387.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2388.07971875,"end":2388.9909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2389.93596875,"end":2393.8847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2394.22221875,"end":2398.9472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2400.7022187500006,"end":2401.6472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2402.96346875,"end":2404.2459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2404.88721875,"end":2406.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2407.0303437500006,"end":2411.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2411.87346875,"end":2416.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2416.93596875,"end":2420.2097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2421.0534687500003,"end":2421.9140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2423.2303437500004,"end":2426.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2427.43221875,"end":2429.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2430.1490937500002,"end":2431.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2432.96721875,"end":2434.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2434.9247187500005,"end":2437.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2437.43909375,"end":2438.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2440.39221875,"end":2462.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2463.20721875,"end":2465.1309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2465.38409375,"end":2471.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2471.3915937500005,"end":2472.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2473.23096875,"end":2475.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2475.9647187500004,"end":2477.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2477.2978437500005,"end":2477.9053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2478.0065937500003,"end":2478.7322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2479.3903437500003,"end":2480.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2482.1240937500006,"end":2483.0690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2483.2715937500006,"end":2484.9590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2485.2459687500004,"end":2487.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2488.2497187500003,"end":2489.5997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2490.0215937500006,"end":2491.8103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2492.40096875,"end":2493.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2493.83534375,"end":2495.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2495.89409375,"end":2496.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2497.21034375,"end":2499.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2500.28159375,"end":2505.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2506.54221875,"end":2509.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2510.03534375,"end":2512.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2513.0222187500003,"end":2516.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2517.46034375,"end":2520.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2520.83534375,"end":2521.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2522.57346875,"end":2528.5134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2529.1884687500005,"end":2530.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2530.7578437500006,"end":2533.8965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2535.3815937500003,"end":2537.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2538.72284375,"end":2540.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2540.95034375,"end":2542.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2543.3465937500005,"end":2544.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2545.65846875,"end":2546.4684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2550.5859687500006,"end":2552.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2553.74159375,"end":2554.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2555.12534375,"end":2559.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2560.3397187500004,"end":2572.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2572.6922187500004,"end":2574.6159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2575.86471875,"end":2576.5397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2577.2147187500004,"end":2587.1540937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2587.62659375,"end":2589.4997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2590.6640937500006,"end":2593.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2593.8028437500006,"end":2595.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2596.1484687500006,"end":2598.0553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2598.51096875,"end":2605.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2605.7165937500004,"end":2617.4278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2617.93409375,"end":2641.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2641.55909375,"end":2672.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2672.6259687500005,"end":2696.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2696.4872187500005,"end":2711.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2711.40471875,"end":2712.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2713.2272187500002,"end":2713.5309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2714.2059687500005,"end":2718.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2719.25159375,"end":2722.6940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2723.03159375,"end":2730.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2731.2665937500005,"end":2735.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2736.4472187500005,"end":2739.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2739.43409375,"end":2741.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2741.8640937500004,"end":2744.8340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2745.5428437500004,"end":2747.2472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2747.55096875,"end":2748.8672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2749.2722187500003,"end":2751.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2752.7653437500003,"end":2753.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2753.84534375,"end":2756.2078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2757.4228437500005,"end":2761.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2762.40096875,"end":2763.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2764.30784375,"end":2767.9528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2768.5097187500005,"end":2771.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2771.24346875,"end":2774.0615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2774.97284375,"end":2775.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2775.6647187500002,"end":2776.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2777.0653437500005,"end":2777.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2778.34784375,"end":2778.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2779.7315937500007,"end":2782.2965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2782.76909375,"end":2785.6209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2786.07659375,"end":2801.2809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2801.3990937500002,"end":2808.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2808.9422187500004,"end":2810.0222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2810.37659375,"end":2812.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2812.89096875,"end":2814.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2814.6628437500003,"end":2817.4472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2817.97034375,"end":2820.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2821.3115937500006,"end":2823.2859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2824.1803437500002,"end":2830.2722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2830.7109687500006,"end":2841.0047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2841.8484687500004,"end":2842.6922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2843.09721875,"end":2846.2022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2847.48471875,"end":2849.7628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2849.96534375,"end":2852.3278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2852.7665937500005,"end":2854.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2854.28534375,"end":2855.2809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2855.63534375,"end":2857.8797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2858.08221875,"end":2860.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2860.79909375,"end":2863.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2864.0222187500003,"end":2865.8953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2866.06409375,"end":2867.3972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2867.61659375,"end":2872.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2872.5778437500003,"end":2873.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2873.47221875,"end":2875.4297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2875.93596875,"end":2879.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2879.66534375,"end":2881.5553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2882.09534375,"end":2885.3690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2885.7403437500006,"end":2909.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2910.1922187500004,"end":2910.8503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2911.5253437500005,"end":2916.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2916.90846875,"end":2928.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2929.68284375,"end":2941.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2942.22096875,"end":2944.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2944.9715937500005,"end":2949.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2950.60784375,"end":2952.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2952.46409375,"end":2954.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2955.2822187500005,"end":2956.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2957.17221875,"end":2958.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2960.2940937500007,"end":2961.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2961.40784375,"end":2961.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2962.25159375,"end":2962.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2963.63534375,"end":2965.5084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2966.2340937500003,"end":2973.0515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2973.4734687500004,"end":2978.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2979.88596875,"end":2980.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2981.69159375,"end":2985.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2986.11284375,"end":2991.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2992.0865937500002,"end":2993.7740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2993.7909687500005,"end":2994.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2994.66846875,"end":2995.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2996.11971875,"end":2997.4022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2997.7565937500003,"end":3001.6378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3002.5153437500003,"end":3008.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3008.23596875,"end":3010.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3011.3409687500007,"end":3028.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3016.4540937500005,"end":3016.9265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3028.3340937500006,"end":3029.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3030.10596875,"end":3033.5147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3033.8184687500006,"end":3036.2147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3036.29909375,"end":3040.2478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3040.77096875,"end":3042.3065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3042.50909375,"end":3044.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3044.26409375,"end":3047.2003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3047.6053437500004,"end":3049.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3050.5753437500007,"end":3052.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3052.7859687500004,"end":3054.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3055.18221875,"end":3060.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3060.97034375,"end":3063.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3064.37909375,"end":3068.8172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3068.8678437500002,"end":3092.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3092.6953437500006,"end":3113.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3116.94471875,"end":3119.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3119.9822187500004,"end":3121.0115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3121.51784375,"end":3123.2390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3123.5597187500007,"end":3125.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3128.03159375,"end":3130.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3130.69784375,"end":3134.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3134.84909375,"end":3137.1778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3137.5828437500004,"end":3141.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3142.5272187500004,"end":3146.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3146.7965937500003,"end":3148.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3148.8047187500006,"end":3150.7790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3151.42034375,"end":3151.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3151.9434687500006,"end":3152.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3153.1247187500003,"end":3154.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3155.0147187500006,"end":3155.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3156.71909375,"end":3157.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3157.81596875,"end":3159.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3161.0390937500006,"end":3162.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3164.1778437500006,"end":3167.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3167.82284375,"end":3174.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3174.1847187500007,"end":3178.6397187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3180.1247187500003,"end":3181.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3182.82471875,"end":3184.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3184.68096875,"end":3186.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3186.5709687500002,"end":3191.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3191.92034375,"end":3192.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3194.3165937500007,"end":3196.1222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3199.7165937500004,"end":3202.0115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3202.9059687500003,"end":3206.1290937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3206.5340937500005,"end":3209.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3210.01034375,"end":3218.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3220.8272187500006,"end":3221.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3222.29534375,"end":3224.3203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3224.7422187500006,"end":3225.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3226.32846875,"end":3228.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3228.97784375,"end":3230.3278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3233.33159375,"end":3236.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3239.33909375,"end":3242.8828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3243.4734687500004,"end":3243.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3244.1484687500006,"end":3245.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3247.5065937500003,"end":3248.7384687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3251.65784375,"end":3253.2440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3253.6153437500006,"end":3261.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3261.2428437500002,"end":3271.3678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3272.1103437500005,"end":3273.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3273.88221875,"end":3275.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3275.94096875,"end":3277.6453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3281.54346875,"end":3282.3028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3282.4884687500007,"end":3283.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3287.2809687500003,"end":3289.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3290.0147187500006,"end":3291.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3292.4109687500004,"end":3293.6090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3296.0390937500006,"end":3297.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3300.93284375,"end":3303.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3303.6328437500006,"end":3304.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3305.1853437500004,"end":3306.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3308.72909375,"end":3312.5428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3313.79159375,"end":3317.1159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3318.3984687500006,"end":3320.2715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3322.75221875,"end":3324.3722187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3324.8447187500005,"end":3325.2159687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3325.46909375,"end":3325.9415937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3326.19471875,"end":3326.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3327.6290937500007,"end":3329.8565937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3330.0759687500004,"end":3331.7128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3332.7422187500006,"end":3335.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3336.80909375,"end":3338.6315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3339.10409375,"end":3342.7490937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3349.7184687500003,"end":3351.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3351.87846875,"end":3353.2959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3354.4940937500005,"end":3355.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3356.3503437500003,"end":3358.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3359.6240937500006,"end":3360.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3360.50159375,"end":3362.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3363.5390937500006,"end":3365.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3365.37846875,"end":3366.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3367.9940937500005,"end":3368.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3369.9347187500007,"end":3385.9490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3386.57346875,"end":3399.9890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3401.0690937500003,"end":3404.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3405.3722187500007,"end":3411.3965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3412.9659687500007,"end":3428.7440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3428.7947187500004,"end":3445.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3446.90159375,"end":3462.6797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3466.91534375,"end":3477.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3482.6765937500004,"end":3483.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3483.7059687500005,"end":3486.5409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3488.07659375,"end":3488.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3490.3378437500005,"end":3490.7597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3491.3503437500003,"end":3494.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3495.72096875,"end":3496.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3498.85971875,"end":3499.6190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3499.88909375,"end":3501.6778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3505.2722187500003,"end":3534.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3536.8790937500007,"end":3559.5759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3559.74471875,"end":3563.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3564.3515937500006,"end":3577.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3579.1172187500006,"end":3580.3322187500007}],"whisperx":[{"start":1829.212,"end":1834.176,"text":"我們現在已足法定人數7人了我們現在開始開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議的議事錄立法院第11屆第三會期司法及法治委員會第12次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國114年4月28日星期一上午9時12分至9時45分地點本院紅樓302會議室"},{"start":1858.075,"end":1882.159,"text":"主席委員黃國昌委員等11人請教委員翁曉琳委員1人列席委員鄭振淺委員等4人列席官員未到報告事項一 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 邀請立法院秘書長列席就立法院議事空間運用現況暨整體院區未來治理規劃立法院國會數位化推動進度及資安應對防護方案進行專題報告並備質詢通過臨時提案以上 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1886.943,"end":1902.63,"text":"我們現在在場還差一位那我們等一下在逐三人的時候我們再行確定接著我們介紹到場的委員先介紹我們陳培委員"},{"start":1909.225,"end":1935.454,"text":"應邀列席的官員我們就看到了今天就這個首長席就康康那我們本次的議程的排定我們是邀請的立法院秘書長議事處的處長還有法治局局長來就3月25號本院違法會議跟違法表決的司法性是否有違公務員服務法來進行專題"},{"start":1937.154,"end":1939.657,"text":"報告並備詢那議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢那尚未確定那現在審判委員也到場了我們現在先來確定議事錄請問各位上次會議的議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":1958.939,"end":1980.989,"text":"沒有的話我們議事錄就確定,那我們今天安排的議程,介紹一下,現在進來的是我們王逸川委員,那今天我們排定這樣的一個議程,我們秘書長,還有我們這個議事處的處長,還有法治局的局長,"},{"start":1982.25,"end":2010.044,"text":"都沒搞各位這個也不用去很大的一個脾氣這個涉及到整個行政跟立法之間權限的一個爭議那這個議題其實可以好好的來做一個說理上一次會議就禮拜一禮拜一我們主席宣布開會以後你看立法院"},{"start":2011.158,"end":2028.284,"text":"就發出了一個新聞稿說幕僚人員並不是司法法制委員會監督的一個對象這個是非常的一個荒唐我們所排定的一個議程雖然具備政治性"},{"start":2029.554,"end":2057.968,"text":"但是絕對具備有社會重大的一個公義性而且有它的一個必要立法院所審的各個議題 召委所排定沒有一個議題不涉及到政治性只要涉及到整個憲政制度基本的一個設計尤其是先涉及到整個政治的運作或者說任何機關它本身是有編列"},{"start":2059.208,"end":2081.149,"text":"預算就是名子名高都必須要接受國會的一個監督那按照立法院各委員會的一個組織法裡面你去看第八條的一個規定或者立法院職權行使法第59條之三第二項的一個規定應邀出席人員他是不得拒絕他是不得拒絕"},{"start":2082.31,"end":2109.757,"text":"而且在憲法六十七條第二項裡面立法院本來就是邀請政府人員來到會備詢除非我們的立法院的秘書處秘書長或者法治局局長議事處處長你認為你們都不是政府的一個官員那這個實在是講不通今天還沒有來你看到我們秘書長的列席首長席裡面"},{"start":2110.888,"end":2116.163,"text":"位置空掉了這個空掉就是對整個制度最大的一個背叛"},{"start":2117.711,"end":2145.162,"text":"就是說我不把你的制度完全放在眼裡要不要到立法院各委員會來備詢是看他的一個心情我為什麼特別要這樣講呢你各位尤其在場的媒體朋友你好好去把它再記憶再搜尋一下過去啊我先來談談中國國民黨來當召委的時候啊秘書長到司法法治委員會來列席報告"},{"start":2146.567,"end":2157.798,"text":"的潛力你像譬如說過去中 國民黨的林維周李慧敏 李慧敏就頒牌了兩次還有葉玉蘭這個會期裡面的吳宗憲吳歌隆"},{"start":2163.496,"end":2190.01,"text":"民主金服黨過去段奕匡委員曾經也邀請過秘書長來列席報告過鍾家斌委員上個會期在黨召委的時候也是周萬來來過那周萬來秘書長他在到司法法治委員會裡面來你看從整個慣例來看的話 前例來看的話就有鍾家斌委員 就有吳宗憲委員"},{"start":2191.05,"end":2200.813,"text":"所以我也不用對他講話特別大聲我們就請我們秘書長或者韓國瑜院長你好好地去思考一下那以前的立法院秘書長那是因為心情好來司法法治委員會那現在心情不好你就說這些幕僚"},{"start":2214.144,"end":2242.609,"text":"他就沒有到立法院來備詢的義務他不是立法院監督的一個對象離譜啊這哪門子的一個國會改革啊就是說從2016年我們整個啟動國會改革以後啊到了韓國瑜院長手上到了周恩來在當秘書長以後啊變成是一種國會改革的一個大倒退啊也就是說國會中立的一個形象蕩然無存"},{"start":2244.979,"end":2265.124,"text":"國會監督然後人民信賴的一個形象那完全就破裂掉了那這其實對整個政治中立是有很大的一個重大的挑戰對於整個民主的運作那其實是一個嚴重的一個破壞這最主要是削弱"},{"start":2266.904,"end":2293.993,"text":"這個國人對於整個立法院這個制度的一個信賴那國會的功能啊那其實啊就變成是因為啊韓國瑜這樣的一個新聞稿的一個動作然後周恩來秘書長他也不得不從那完全就整個國會監督的功能就完全都破壞掉了你們想想看喔各位立法院一年編的預算是多龐大"},{"start":2296.864,"end":2321.762,"text":"幾百億預算然後立法院可以說我置外於整個制度的一個監督國會邀請他可以不用來他可以拒絕立法院秘書長立法院這些官員他這些全部都叫政府官員你都是領老百姓的公帑名子名高哪有不受監督的"},{"start":2323.117,"end":2342.729,"text":"立法院秘書長到司法法治委員會來專案報告來備詢這不是我莊惠雄創的從過去段宜康從過去的林維周從過去的李桂民兩次然後從過去的葉玉蘭然後到中國國民黨吳宗憲這都你們國民黨的林維周 李桂民 葉玉蘭 吳宗憲都國民黨的"},{"start":2353.936,"end":2363.982,"text":"立法院的各種委員會的組織法裡面當然是各政黨裡面都會有召委那真正呢委員會的一個運作裡面呢倒不是哪一個黨派的委員會喔各委員會按照組織法它就是國會的一個組成能夠邀請政府官員來備詢不管是從憲法第67條第二項的規定或者從大法官4至461號的規定"},{"start":2386.243,"end":2398.857,"text":"除非你請假你有正當理由否則這是超級超級超級的藐視國會把整個國會把整個民主的一個運作你去把它給削弱掉了這叫做曉白啊"},{"start":2403.021,"end":2416.211,"text":"除非你中國國民黨除非你韓國瑜院長或者周萬來秘書長還有其他你法治局的局長議事處的處長你認為這個國會中國國民黨永遠都是可以佔多數啊你認為台灣民眾黨永遠都支持你中國國民黨啊否則你把整個國會的一個運作你把它給破壞掉了立法院本來就是一個監督機關任何接受民脂民膏"},{"start":2433.078,"end":2438.441,"text":"享有公帑這些高官你本來就必須要接受國會的一個監督除非你有正當理由荒謬 真的是非常荒謬把整個國會監督把整個憲政的一個慣例完全給破壞掉所以今天都不敢賣這大家講道理周萬乃秘書長還有我們立法院我們的韓國瑜院長你必須要很具體的指明說為什麼從過去立法院的秘書長"},{"start":2460.874,"end":2472.702,"text":"到司法法治委員會來備詢不管是從過去的民進黨或者說從到國民黨的林維周到李桂民然後到葉玉蘭然後到吳宗憲這都是這一屆而已吳宗憲是這一屆然後到民進黨的這個鍾嘉斌到我 莊瑞雄嘿 看我們這裡沒有"},{"start":2482.182,"end":2505.162,"text":"我在創下立法院的先例我當召委來邀請立法院秘書長來作案報告來列席備詢被拒絕掉了這不是對我的羞辱這是對整個制度的一個挑戰這是韓國瑜還有周恩來秘書長你們自己在羞辱你自己當了院長 當了秘書長 當了高官"},{"start":2510.097,"end":2533.99,"text":"要不要備詢看你心情好幕僚人員不受監督你只要是政府官員你都有這樣的一個義務憲法六十七條講得非常清楚大法官四十四百六十一條講得非常清楚立法院各種委員會職權行使法規定得清清楚楚立法委員職權行使法規定得非常清楚我們過去有這麼多的一個慣例"},{"start":2538.766,"end":2544.23,"text":"你自外於憲政的一個慣例只因為你心情不好發個新聞稿然後就算數了好請我們吳思瑤委員謝謝主席雖然不意外但還是表達嚴重的抗議跟譴責今天的議程的安排周萬來再一次在韓國瑜的"},{"start":2566.588,"end":2589.23,"text":"包庇護航之下再創惡例而且他是讓惡例成了慣例星期一不請假就不來秘書長可以不開會不備詢不報告連書面報告都不提供這週一的會議是創下了惡例但是今天第二次"},{"start":2590.754,"end":2617.014,"text":"是讓惡例成了慣例今天的會議議程非常的合理正當針對立法院的違法會議跟非法表決3月25號那是否在釋法性跟核限性上是需要來進行討論的它的法規非常的明確就召委所排案所定"},{"start":2618.055,"end":2640.795,"text":"在3月25号那一天违反了立法院职权刑事法76条违反了立法院议事规则22条都在不合理不正当也是不正不合规的时间内来进行开会甚至进行表决会议无效"},{"start":2641.696,"end":2658.207,"text":"而且表决当然也无效这是基于立法院职权行事法76条跟立法院议事规则22条所以是法性是要讨论的而今天的议程民进党团也早已经循立法院职权行事法68条"},{"start":2660.209,"end":2683.207,"text":"針對違法會議非法表決立法院的爭議事項提請韓國瑜院長召集朝野協商但是韓院長不協商就是不協商不解決就是不解決以至於我們必須今天回到司法法治委員會就核限性跟釋法性再一次進行釐清釋法性的第三部分"},{"start":2683.948,"end":2712.587,"text":"在公務員服務法的第三條公務員服務法23條25條乃至於公務員懲戒法的第二條只要是公務員他沒有依法沒有在立法院沒有捍衛議事中立維持政治中立都違反了我剛剛說的這些法規所以今天不只對於周萬來還包括議事處長高百祥法治局長郭明正他們違法的"},{"start":2714.41,"end":2717.539,"text":"這些內容都需要透過我們的專案報告來進行釐清"},{"start":2719.392,"end":2744.368,"text":"所以就主題的部分今天召委的排案非常的合理正當需要就這些違法之處違憲的疑慮之處來進行討論那但今天一樣齁我剛講就是惡例已經變成慣例了韓國瑜院長其實在426當天他又是違反議事中立的最負面的示範"},{"start":2745.769,"end":2773.821,"text":"那天韓國瑜院長把民主政治不倫不類的比喻成打麻將他說執政黨只會打青一色現在看看在立法院只有藍白一色誰在青一色只有藍白一色會護航意識不中立的韓院長護航意識不中立的周萬來現在在立法院只有藍白一色"},{"start":2775.014,"end":2781.475,"text":"而只要是合規合理我們都可以透過民主的討論"},{"start":2782.85,"end":2783.35,"text":"說不來會議就開不成"},{"start":2812.95,"end":2840.101,"text":"那這不是詐唬嗎上牌桌就要上牌桌的規矩啊今天不來開會藍白的立委護航連請假單都沒有真的是對我們的召委這資深的立委還有司法委員會所有的委員都是非常的來剝奪我們監督的權限所以我們今天一樣再提出一個臨時提案我們要二度譴責可以把提案發下來嗎"},{"start":2841.929,"end":2853.264,"text":"周恩來惡意的缺席一次我們就譴責一次他已經把惡力變成慣例但是我們不會輕輕放下這些譴責案"},{"start":2854.523,"end":2881.318,"text":"這些提案都會列為議事記錄都會在歷史上記載一筆以後我不知道周外來他還敢不敢出書再寫議事規則的運作如果他要再寫請把這一周司法法治委員會發生的事情勇敢的寫在書上告訴未來學習立法學習法律的相關年輕世代違法會議就是無效"},{"start":2884.168,"end":2909.133,"text":"這種藐視國會就不該縱容所以我是不是可以就我們的提案跟大家做簡要的說明今天除了譴責立法院秘書長還包括議事處高百祥處長法治局郭明正局長為經請假程序禁制缺席司法法治委員會為提供會議主題之書面報告文件更曲解誤用立院內規就是立法院各委員會組織法第二條"},{"start":2910.256,"end":2926.064,"text":"今日二度缺席再次迴避國會監督嚴重踐踏民主代呼職責藐視國會再創惡例特此提出譴責提案人就莊瑞雄陳培宇王逸川審法會吳思瑤請大家討論"},{"start":2929.707,"end":2954.019,"text":"好 謝謝吳士堯委員各位美女朋友各位在場我們的先進各位再把它想想看在台灣不要說院程級在各個縣市只要有看到局長處長的甚至於叫鄉鎮科長的沒有人不列席的沒有人不受監督的鄉鎮的科長他都要代表會去列席"},{"start":2960.733,"end":2978.503,"text":"縣市的局處長沒有人不用到議會去列席的只有立法院的什麼法治局局長 議事處處長 秘書長把立法院當成是憲政制度的一個後花園愛怎麼逛就怎麼逛想來就來想到逛到哪一個委員會去就到哪一個委員會去"},{"start":2986.175,"end":3010.164,"text":"再看看那個秘書長的椅子空下來 這個是對民主最大的一個侮辱啦來 接下來是不是請來 吳斯亞委員詢問昭緯 因為呢 我們未來有很多要開始進行解凍案那各個預算的解凍案 也包括立法院有通案被凍結的預算那未來我們司法法治委員會怎麼排審"},{"start":3011.377,"end":3029.093,"text":"因為依慣例在審議預算的時候要來列席的人就是秘書長或是立法院相關的人員總務處什麼的但是今天周恩來愛來不來連這個常任的文官法制局長跟議事處長他們不是政務任用喔常務的文官"},{"start":3030.174,"end":3049.451,"text":"自己再一次違反公務員服務法這要送懲戒的咧那如果我們這麼多的解凍案要排案到委員會解凍的時候那立法院沒人來報告沒有人來說明是韓國瑜認同周萬來認同立法院的預算一律都不解凍囉還是他們覺得送來就自動解凍"},{"start":3050.612,"end":3060.181,"text":"秘書長不來備詢就可以解凍我不曉得立法院大到這種程度嗎所以要請示一下如果是我們在排審預算解凍的時候他們繼續不來這個難題要怎麼解決對不對"},{"start":3064.543,"end":3077.653,"text":"謝謝吳世耀委員啦這個就是我剛剛跟大家報告過的你把整個制度把它給破壞掉啦你把整個憲政的一個慣例你把它給摧毀掉你接下來會很麻煩啦你看你110你從立法院你從過去從103年度你那個預算本來都是不到200億100多億你一路成長到112年的時候就已經都400多億了"},{"start":3092.825,"end":3113.506,"text":"到113年我還沒看到去年的我們的預算有多少啊你立法院的預算本來就是有那麼多啊那好像是說以後立法院什麼錢我愛怎麼花就怎麼花我再講一次啊立法院不是我們憲政制度所設計出來的後花園你愛怎麼逛就怎麼逛想來就來不想來就不想來"},{"start":3116.94,"end":3145.944,"text":"好像是椅子是隨時可以讓它填空的想做就來做然後不想做心情不好那連踏進委員會的門都不踏進來不想做的人就滾就這麼簡單我很不客氣的講這句話任何的制度設計你要當高官的人就不需要受監督這個叫做憲政的ABC任何你當了高官沒有不受監督的"},{"start":3146.84,"end":3159.695,"text":"沒有不受監督的連各個縣市的局處首長到各鄉鎮的相對的科長你只要領人民的俸禄你就必須要接受監督"},{"start":3164.495,"end":3178.602,"text":"這個是人民對制度最基本的一個信賴今天邀請秘書長到司法法治委員會來列席跟報告備詢這不是我這一屆不是到我莊烈雄刀尾我來獨創我剛已經講過很多次了過去國民黨裡面我再請讓大家回憶一下從林維周 葉毓蘭然後呢到這個吳宗憲"},{"start":3194.312,"end":3196.234,"text":"這全部都是你公民黨的更何況我們今天排這樣的一個議程我相信社會大眾應該可以看得很清楚嘛我們邀請立法院秘書長、議事處處長、法治局局長裡面這三個大頭來針對立法院的運作3月22日晚間我們本院的違法會議違法表決的司法性"},{"start":3221.008,"end":3230.51,"text":"來表達意見有沒有違反公務人員服務法我們再請他來談他的專業不是談私事耶這個是在立法院有多大產生多大的一個憲政的一個爭議會議結束以後晚上偷偷摸摸的再重新再召開一次會議再把他丟出兩個公投案這個社會嘩然啊"},{"start":3251.707,"end":3270.857,"text":"重大的爭議案件 爭議事項 涉及到國會本身邀請你秘書長 邀請你議事處長 邀請你法治局局長到司法法治委員會來做列席專案報告 剛剛好而已為什麼不來 就很簡單嘛我就下個結論嘛 你說不出一個所以然嘛你連講都不敢講嘛 你連談都不敢談嘛因為你談不出一個道理嘛"},{"start":3281.584,"end":3283.565,"text":"立法院一年編了幾百億的預算我們也不是百分之百全部都放行啊那接下來凍結的部分你怎麼辦好好想想這個問題啊所有幕僚人員全部不用到立法院能讓被凍結的預算到韓國瑜吹個口哨全部都放行嗎哪有這種事"},{"start":3308.749,"end":3320.235,"text":"各委員會的一個設置辦法裡面都講得非常清楚啊你政府官員就必須要列席除非你有正當理由或者你請假除非你秘書處的秘書長你法治局局長議事處處長你認為你不是政府官員啊你如果不是政府官員的話你就不應該混進立法院來啊"},{"start":3336.84,"end":3342.721,"text":"你就不應該領人民的公帑啊如果你領了人民的公帑你就有義務接受到國會的監督啊這個不是狗吠火車啊這是整個制度啊的一個設計啊而且這是憲政的慣例而且在我們組織法裡面也訂得非常清楚而且在我們整個憲法裡面"},{"start":3368.172,"end":3385.206,"text":"訂得清清楚楚憲法六十七條第二項講的就是政府官員大法官司之四百六十一號講得也非常清楚政府官員不排除立法機關這個部分當然有它的一個適用那我們想接下來"},{"start":3387.087,"end":3399.854,"text":"因為現在收到我們提出的臨時提案依照本會的慣例通常是在上午11點處理但是因為今天列席的機關都沒有到場請問在場委員我們是不是現在來處理臨時提案好那我們來處理臨時提案全部都有印發給在場委員那我們處理臨時提案一案請宣讀"},{"start":3413.358,"end":3427.695,"text":"臨時提案一立法院秘書長周萬來議事處高百祥法治局郭明正等人未經請假程序禁制缺席司法及法治委員會未提供會議主題之書面報告文件更曲解勿用立院內規"},{"start":3428.976,"end":3445.121,"text":"立法院各委員會組織法第二條今日二度缺席再次迴避國會監督嚴重踐踏民主代呼職責藐視國會再創惡力特此提出譴責提案人委員莊瑞雄陳培瑜吳思瑤審發會王逸川宣讀完畢"},{"start":3447.306,"end":3454.572,"text":"好 謝謝 要做處理以前先修正 剛講的有點激動立法院的稅出是37億 37億再重新做一個訂正那我們現在處理臨時提案 請問我們在場委員有沒有補充說明"},{"start":3466.98,"end":3476.783,"text":"那針對臨時提案請問機關有其他意見或說明機關都不來齁那臨時提案沒有修正的話我們就召喚通過啊這兩三時今天我們幾個比較靜坐而已沒人要不要拍一張比較歷史性的啊這實在是不要來這實在是這樣我就"},{"start":3498.888,"end":3499.492,"text":"就反省了,不是說保安領庫,而是講一句"},{"start":3505.722,"end":3534.433,"text":"對你們很抱歉 我知道你們大家要遇事要把最好的準備然後發揮最好的戰力呈現給國人但是我們今天政府官員就沒有列席 沒有出席再講一次 立法院的高官也是政府官員你領了老百姓的名字名高 其實說不受監督是"},{"start":3536.946,"end":3562.999,"text":"有一點誇張啦有一點誇張啦像剛剛吳士耀委員所提出來的立法院的預算的部分那其實啊你不能以為我立法院所編的我們就不受任何監督一年呢我們的稅租就37億了就37億喔那幾十億這也是非常龐大的一筆預算那你說都不受監督這講不通啊好像他們的書店大家畫畫的就"},{"start":3564.44,"end":3577.078,"text":"那今天啊 列席官員邀請列席的官員都沒有到場啦那會也開不下去 我們本次會議啊我們就到此結束 我們現在散會 謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"160743","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160743","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369d9dc4703b9e1df1b693dd611367b4ddd04c4aea0d98bed81a584b8aae4e4ec475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"09:06:16 - 09:09:11","影片長度":"00:02:55","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查「保險法」15案：\n一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案。【後3案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第一百二十三條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T09:06:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T09:09:11+08:00","duration":175,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":8.181593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.21096875,"end":95.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.43784375,"end":138.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.99659375000002,"end":157.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.52534375000002,"end":165.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.84034375000002,"end":175.96971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.63,"end":7.976,"text":"主要是2022年民事大法庭開始做出108年台抗大字第八九七號裁定之後"},{"start":9.364,"end":29.793,"text":"所有的民事執行處收到大量的保單強職事件進而出現保單強職的各種亂象去年五月台灣民眾黨率先提出了修正草案當時因為有看到很多保單強職的這些問題有些價值準備金只有幾千塊的健康險也被強制執行失去了保護的保障"},{"start":30.313,"end":52.241,"text":"也有一些是父母在小孩出生的時候就買的一些保障健康險但是20年後爸媽欠了錢這張保單卻因為父母的債務而被強職導致孩子失去保險的保障112年1月到113年12月總共有70多萬件的保單強職事件造成了非常多的民眾的保障"},{"start":52.921,"end":79.158,"text":"一夕之間消失在這些案子裡面我們發現了債權人是資產管理公司的有18萬件銀行大概有40多萬件兩者合計是58萬多件佔整體案件的75%銀行跟資產管理公司透過對保單的強制執行他並不是所謂的弱勢債權人但是他們把保單的準備金那一點點錢都擠出來造成了民眾很大很大的"},{"start":80.218,"end":95.063,"text":"損害所以造成很多的孩子失去了長成年以後的健康保障所以台灣民眾黨版本設計的部分是受益人的介入權受益人可以在得知相關的保單要被執行的時候可以他有他來"},{"start":96.763,"end":125.193,"text":"墊付償付所有債務的金額讓債權人可以拿回錢也不會讓他的保單被執行這一點後來在今年3月金管會送的草案裡面也把它納入那我們要確保債權人跟債務人他們的權利的橫平目前為止台灣民眾黨的版本在所所謂價值準備金10萬塊以下的保單健康保單跟傷害保險或者是一年期的人壽保險不得作為強制執行的標的那"},{"start":125.993,"end":154.799,"text":"金管會的版本是三個月的基本生活開銷所以這兩個的差距其實並不大因為三個月大概是7萬多那台灣民眾的版本是10萬我覺得這個部分可以進一步的再繼續討論那重點是今天的版本我們希望能夠全面性的來照顧讓傷害險、醫療險跟金管會的版本一樣不應該成為強制執行的標的那有關的受險或投資型保單這個部分是讓債權人跟債務人在他權力平衡的情況下能夠互相作為保障"},{"start":155.239,"end":174.491,"text":"我們希望民眾能夠回到保險的本質保險就是要給他保障所以這個本質不應該被強制性而剝奪以上 謝謝好 接著請王世堅委員王世堅 王世堅委員不在請林思敏 林思敏林思敏委員不在"}]}},{"id":"160742","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160742","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369e1793598fb6cdc033c0ba1d923b4b8db04c4aea0d98bed813fb8e3d700d2a5af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:10:08 - 09:12:11","影片長度":"00:02:03","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T09:10:08+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T09:12:11+08:00","duration":123,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.53221875,"end":19.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.70721875,"end":25.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.512218750000002,"end":41.914718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.08346875,"end":44.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.91846875,"end":52.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.34346875,"end":68.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.99909375,"end":82.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.02221875000001,"end":93.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.00784375,"end":114.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.05096875000001,"end":121.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.35346875,"end":123.69096875000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.558,"end":18.032,"text":"好 謝謝主席本席提案二要的說就是一 設置動物保護警察二 成立動物保護基金三 對動物提供更嚴密的保護四 對違法施以更嚴厲的處罰動物保護法自1998年制定以來已經修正了15次"},{"start":26.04,"end":44.092,"text":"這麼頻繁的修正代表動物保護的觀念不斷在改進也代表原先的立法還不夠周全造成施行結果無法達到尊重動物生命保護動物及確保動物福利的目的因此本席在本屆再度提出修正案第一設置動物保護警察"},{"start":45.152,"end":58.94,"text":"動物是具有感知能力的生命,而根據研究,虐待動物與家庭暴力、暴力犯罪有高度的關聯性。基於這兩個理由,先進國家通常會將防止虐待動物列為治安重點。更重要的是,動物保護案件的偵辦涉及專業,建議比照先進國家的做法,設置專業的動物保護警察。"},{"start":69.065,"end":93.173,"text":"第二成立动物保护基金透过稳定的裁员来改善目前动物保护的重大困境包括受虐受伤动物的救治动物收容环境的改善游荡动物的安置与保护等第三对动物提供更严密的保护包括放宽虐待动物的定义明定饲养的设备与方式增订经营动物贩卖的规定等等"},{"start":94.053,"end":121.562,"text":"第四對違法施以更嚴厲的處罰明定虐待動物行為人及因受處罰不論動物之生理上是否實質受到傷害加重傷害動物使動物受到傷害之處罰在並在區分情節重大致動物發生重傷死亡的結果者加重其責就此本席願擬據動物保護法部分條文的修正案懇請各位立院同仁支持好"}]}},{"id":"160741","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160741","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423699002f9993a5753593c0ba1d923b4b8db04c4aea0d98bed8166fd7484734a17d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:07:18 - 09:10:03","影片長度":"00:02:45","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T09:07:18+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T09:10:03+08:00","duration":165,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.36409375,"end":2.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.4397187500000004,"end":9.109718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.278468750000002,"end":41.610968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.11721875,"end":51.297218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.056593750000005,"end":55.313468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.634093750000005,"end":73.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.19659375,"end":90.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.83534375,"end":116.73846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.00409375000001,"end":138.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.36784375000002,"end":143.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.38409375,"end":150.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.47159375,"end":151.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.99034375000002,"end":153.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.16721875000002,"end":159.60096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.07346875000002,"end":163.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.54534375,"end":165.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.13596875000002,"end":165.59159375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.651,"end":21.985,"text":"主席各位先進今天我們經濟委員會在針對動物保護法的一個修法感謝謝一鳳召委特別排案動物保護法從民國87年11月4號公布實施以來歷經15次的修正這法令可以說是我國在動物保護動物福利以及相關飼養管理責任上重要的基礎"},{"start":23.065,"end":51.071,"text":"隨著社會對於動物權利的日益提升民眾期待越來越高也因此我們也看到在現行法制面上面要有更與時俱進的作為來符合國人的期待尤其是對於動物飼養的管理收容機制的完善以及棄養行為的處理目前仍存在制度面上面的困難也因此在這一次我們特別有針對動物保護法修正草案裡面"},{"start":52.091,"end":68.252,"text":"本席提出來希望能夠達成四大面向第一有利於動保檢查員的執法第二提升國人對於動物保護的意識以及第三加強事主的責任提高棄養動物的罰則以及第四"},{"start":69.092,"end":90.163,"text":"強化動物利用以及虐待傷害之管理及苛責特別跟說明我們與院版不同的地方是在於修正條文第10條灌水牛事件過去常常有不肖業者用灌水的方式來侵害牛隻所以我們也要明定除了醫療目的外不得已"},{"start":90.903,"end":113.375,"text":"不以屠宰場的場域為限均不得對經濟動物居於灌水灌食或是捆綁等行為第二修正條例第18條新增其他補習或是進修教育機構禁止未經監督及專業訓練的動物實驗課程避免不必要的動物犧牲還有我們也希望能夠修正24條跟29條強化動物科學運用機構的管理"},{"start":118.072,"end":138.065,"text":"尊重動物生命保護動物以及維護動物福利已經是普世價值也是我國社會跟人民的共識也因此我常說人是萬物之靈但人絕非不是高高在上我們要跟動物一起學習怎麼樣跟社會和睦相處以及共享地球這個資源"},{"start":139.366,"end":139.386,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160747","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160747","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369e56235bc3b6d83e73c0ba1d923b4b8db04c4aea0d98bed81e335e2cb9b568a595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"09:18:41 - 09:21:41","影片長度":"00:03:00","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T09:18:41+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T09:21:41+08:00","duration":180,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.51096875,"end":26.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.59221875,"end":66.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.87284375,"end":67.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.91909375,"end":69.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.43784375,"end":78.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.90471875,"end":85.13159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.33409375000001,"end":89.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.14346875000001,"end":97.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.22659375,"end":99.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.69471875,"end":106.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.29284375,"end":113.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.90346875,"end":114.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.98346875,"end":123.72471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.85971875000001,"end":131.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.41971875000002,"end":132.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.80346875,"end":136.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.71846875,"end":137.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.86596875,"end":144.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.76784375,"end":159.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.65159375000002,"end":160.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.38971875000001,"end":170.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.87346875,"end":173.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.32034375,"end":179.49659375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.531,"end":21.662,"text":"謝謝主席今天排審這個動保法不過今天只有我們委員的版本看起來沒有行政院的版本行政院版其實在112年的時候有提出來那時候是68條68條那時候要做修正後來發現範圍太大了所以就濃縮濃縮到具有28條是具有社會高度共識的這個是在113年的時候提出來的"},{"start":34.272,"end":53.078,"text":"那但是呢現在已經是114年了那我覺得說這個農業部這個腳步還要再加快因為到現在這個我們都還是只有這個我們委員的版本還沒有這個行政院版的版本好那就以上就這一個本席所提出來動保法的修正案大概有六個面向來做以上的說明跟報告"},{"start":53.618,"end":76.36,"text":"那第一個就是說為保障多元寵物物種的動物福利那我們針對寵物進行分類然後並依各分類的物種的管理需求採取分級管理的措施 這第一個那第二個就是說納管民間所設置的動物收容所會以非引力為目的的飼養犬貓達一定規模以上的大量的飼養戶因為這個有些"},{"start":80.143,"end":102.618,"text":"這個飼養戶的確是蠻多的 他甚至比這個可能比官方的收容所都還要多了那這部分要怎麼樣去納管 那請這個農業部要稍微考量一下那第三呢擴大進食基於經濟目的 以動物進行交換或贈與行為的這個樣態那我想說這一個這個修正條文農業部他有提出回應 那基本上是同意的"},{"start":103.598,"end":131.834,"text":"但是有一些跟民間商業文化或是說民眾的活動只有相關的再請農業部再去做考量第四點就是說在網路上散佈虐待動物資訊非法繁殖或買賣犬貓等違法網頁的資訊附有限制瀏覽或移除違法網頁內容且保存相關資料的義務這一條是新增第五個"},{"start":132.87,"end":159.176,"text":"完善寵物食品標示及廣告宣稱的管理規定那授權這個中央主管機關訂定寵物食品安全管理法那不過現在這個農業部已經有這個預告這個有這個寵物食品管理法那這個是在183年9月5號預告的那現在也114年的5月了希望這個寵物食品管理法能夠儘快送到這個我們立法院來第二點呢這個"},{"start":161.477,"end":178.272,"text":"加重宰殺故意傷害動物致其肢體嚴重殘缺或重要器官功能喪失行為者的刑度我想大部分委員提案都有這個共識但是這個刑度要如何加重可能請農業部跟相關單位再做個討論以上說明 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160746","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160746","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369a6faf33ebc301a423c0ba1d923b4b8db04c4aea0d98bed818cba3367f770e7f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"09:16:42 - 09:18:35","影片長度":"00:01:53","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T09:16:42+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T09:18:35+08:00","duration":113,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.021593750000001,"end":7.422218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.063468750000002,"end":14.239718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.290343750000002,"end":23.250968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.85846875,"end":25.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.664093750000003,"end":31.789718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.09346875,"end":37.071593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.35846875,"end":44.040968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.32784375,"end":47.635343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.141593750000006,"end":59.09346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.58284375,"end":60.173468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.392843750000004,"end":62.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.94096875,"end":64.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.30346875000001,"end":65.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.31596875000001,"end":68.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.44221875000001,"end":69.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.87659375,"end":76.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.81221875,"end":83.17409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.73096875,"end":85.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.35096875,"end":88.89471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.26596875,"end":112.31721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.97534375000001,"end":113.14409375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.055,"end":24.78,"text":"好 感謝召委排審動保法在民國87年公佈實行以後我們歷經了這麼多次的修正成為我國動物保護福利及飼養最關鍵重要的一個法律基礎然而隨著社會一直不斷的逐漸對動保的意識提升還有科技的進步"},{"start":25.72,"end":47.437,"text":"我們近年來對於虐待動物、棄養動物、非法繁殖還有不當飼養以及網路許多的事件頻繁地在網路上、社會上曝光我們可以顯現出整個法制還有諸多的不足希望能夠與時俱進我們全面保障的動物基本權益以及福利"},{"start":48.237,"end":75.816,"text":"更希望能夠有效的抑制違法的行為特別是在動物飼養的管理收容的體系棄養的行為處理以及動物流向的管理網路平台的責任動物科學應用的機構監督還有相關等方面現行的規範我覺得還有明顯的一個缺口能夠希望再透過每一次的修法來加以補強"},{"start":77.137,"end":104.402,"text":"為此我們尊重生命提升國人對動物生命的價值的認識強化動物福利保障整個體系完整事主的責任我們更希望本法在部分條文修正來回應社會的期待健全動物保護的一個機制實現我們能夠跟動物和平共存我們更希望在這一次我所提出的版本能夠在整個"},{"start":105.583,"end":111.674,"text":"我們看到明顯的缺口能夠來補上也非常拜託我們所有立法委員一起來努力謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160745","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160745","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369072b3233e796a7f73c0ba1d923b4b8db04c4aea0d98bed81f6c8e88a0e872c475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"09:12:16 - 09:16:37","影片長度":"00:04:21","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T09:12:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T09:16:37+08:00","duration":261,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.8153437500000003,"end":5.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.101593750000001,"end":7.607843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.96221875,"end":8.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.755343750000002,"end":9.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.429718750000003,"end":15.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.14659375,"end":51.010343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.22971875,"end":85.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.51534375,"end":96.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.96096875,"end":151.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.14221875,"end":191.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.17034375,"end":188.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.52846875,"end":224.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.75534375,"end":228.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.07534375,"end":259.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.46284375,"end":261.42471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.938,"end":8.227,"text":"请光与请 不好意思嗯 有 你有"},{"start":13.459,"end":40.829,"text":"好 謝謝主席大家早安我想這個所以社會對於動物保護意識的一個提升那現行的這個動保法其實部分的一些規定已經不足以回應整個所有的食物的一個需求跟社會的一個期待所以這一次也希望透過我們的部分草案的一個修訂能夠來強化第一包含飼主的一個責任另外還有管理動物相關的一些產業以及提升收容所的量能"},{"start":41.448,"end":54.64,"text":"那明確禁止虐待的一個行為跟規範動物交換贈與的一些行為另外還有保障實驗動物的一個福利並賦予動物保護檢察員也就是動檢員的一些司法警察權"},{"start":55.731,"end":82.838,"text":"那來全面促進動物的一個福利跟保護那首先呢這些重點包含第一個就是強化飼主的責任明確的飼養的一個規範然後來明定所謂的這個飼主應該要符合動物的天性的飼養的環境還有照顧的一個措施並且具體的規範基本的一個照顧的原則那禁止棄養另外呢在飼主呢在為寵物進行結紮等等的一些責任來強化飼主的一個責任跟義務"},{"start":86.564,"end":114.295,"text":"那第二點包含就是有效的管理動物相關的一些產業強化專業人員的一個能力跟寵物登記的一個責任那要求這個經營寵物買賣業者必須要設置專任或者是專業的一個技術人員並且在每年要接受所謂的值錢的訓練落實登記跟許可的一個制度強化源頭的一個寵物的管理那另外在經營寵物食品業者的部分在整個所有的食品業的"},{"start":115.295,"end":140.078,"text":"食品的包裝要明確的標示所謂的這個寵物食品的一個成分那避免使用有害的一些物質那同時也要求現在網路的一些平台的業者也要配合提供規規的一個證據的檢舉加強整個所有網路對於寵物食品的安全的管理那第三個部分包含充實公共的公立的一個收容所的一個量能"},{"start":140.683,"end":159.018,"text":"那我想這個收容所的量一直以來也是非常大的一個問題那如何要提升這個收容所的一個設施以及人力的一個資源並且授權中央主管機關負責來做評鑑跟公告的一個結果同時我們也希望政府能夠寬列動物保護的預算"},{"start":159.554,"end":186.498,"text":"以及专款专用来强化公部门在推动动保的一个效能那第四点呢就是保障动物的一个福利要明确的定义虐待的行为并且修正处罚的一些规定那将虐待动物的一个行为呢扩大到对于动物的生理或心理造成伤害痛苦紧迫以及恐惧的等等的不当的行为那么另外呢还包含禁止有弃养或虐待记录者在饲养动物的"},{"start":186.963,"end":194.171,"text":"明確的黑名單以及灰名單的一個定義喔那另外呢再來第五點是禁止以賭博娛樂遊戲"},{"start":195.902,"end":224.191,"text":"以及營業以及宣傳等方式來做動物的交換或贈餘那這部分也是要抑止所謂的這個就是取得動物之後的一些棄養以及不當的一個問題那第六點保障實驗動物的一個福利那麼我們修法的第15條是希望能夠優先以非動物的替代的方式能夠貫徹減量替代以及精緻化的一個原則能夠促進科學研究"},{"start":225.024,"end":237.476,"text":"當中對於實驗動物的福利跟尊重以及這個保障那第七點其實剛剛有兩位委員也特別提到就是我們的動保警察的部分那這個部分我們希望這個農業部會同這個內政部能夠 警政署來"},{"start":242.345,"end":259.503,"text":"訂定這個辦法能夠來強化對動物保護執行力以及執法力的一個期待那就是針對以上幾點我們希望能夠在現今我們的這個動保法的一個修法當中能夠真正落實對動物的福祉的一個照顧以上好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160744","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160744","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423691e7f7fefbb81dba6693dd611367b4ddd04c4aea0d98bed810058b4a0f6ef72a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:09:46 - 09:13:02","影片長度":"00:03:16","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查「保險法」15案：\n一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案。【後3案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第一百二十三條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T09:09:46+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T09:13:02+08:00","duration":196,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":186.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.43971875000003,"end":193.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.38034375,"end":195.62909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":3.915,"text":"主席 各位官員 各位委員今天排案針對保險法174條之二以及174條之三的修正討論"},{"start":10.424,"end":33.714,"text":"那事實上從我過去接到的陳情案件那在為陳情人爭取協調過程當中我看到這個修法慢慢的就出現了那原本最高法院民事大法庭108年度抬抗大致第897號裁定或許當下看見的只是一些極端的個案但是真真切切被影響的卻是因為"},{"start":34.574,"end":51.302,"text":"不同原因陷入經濟困頓的眾多家庭那他們都是急待被法律保障跟受到自身過去辛苦繳納保險所保障之人那所以為什麼會有這麼多不分黨派的委員提案跟重視這個案子那就是因為"},{"start":52.262,"end":66.869,"text":"苦民所苦啦 是關切我們的民眾現在真的是受到很大的傷害那今天不只是法律條文的技術性調整它也是關於困頓民眾的安全保障那當然也還有保險制度的信賴根基"},{"start":67.609,"end":85.114,"text":"以及我國整體債權制度跟強制執行程序的平衡性我們當然非常支持這項修法但我也要強調不應該片面將解約金就當作是衡量保險是否可抵押的依據應該回到保險的本質從保險金額與保險契約狀態做判準"},{"start":88.055,"end":113.872,"text":"那才能夠真正實現保險制度的立法目的也能夠保障投保人與受益人的權益那行政院版本主張以解約金額度做區分保險契約是否可做強制執行的標的因為解約金為具體可執行的價值所以有實務的操作性但事實上這樣的做法也可能導致偏離的修法我們的一個保障的初衷那首先大部分的民眾"},{"start":115.153,"end":135.638,"text":"購買保險的本質是風險保障它不是單純的財富累積工具如果有這類型的商品可以設計來排除那投保人繳納保費並不是為了未來中途解約去換取解約金而是認為在面對死亡重大傷病或特定事故能夠提供家人子女受益人一筆穩定的保障"},{"start":136.118,"end":159.345,"text":"所以我們以解約金是否達一定金額作為決定該保單是否受法律保護的關鍵會打擊民眾長期規劃保障的意願那另外解約金的多寡與保障價值並不等同一份剛投保三年的終身受險可能解約金很低但是保障金額卻已經高達數百萬元所以這也是可能要去思考的一個重點"},{"start":160.245,"end":185.896,"text":"那我同意為了平衡債權人權與保險保護的界限應該要適當退縮主張豁免強制執行的保險種類那這些怎麼樣來去類型化這個我們都可以再來去確認總而言之我希望這次的修法能夠去彌補我們本來之前造成的保護以及我們的一般民眾的一個很大的傷害我們大家一起來完成這個修法 謝謝"},{"start":192.486,"end":194.904,"text":"好我們補充介紹"}]}},{"id":"160751","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160751","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b94236916380f4bc9a686a13c0ba1d923b4b8db04c4aea0d98bed81b7b5e3943a9fe4c05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:24:39 - 09:28:10","影片長度":"00:03:31","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T09:24:39+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T09:28:10+08:00","duration":211,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.13909375,"end":27.874718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.11096875,"end":29.140343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.47784375,"end":31.418468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.127218750000004,"end":32.549093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.190343750000004,"end":36.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.20659375,"end":40.024718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.51409375,"end":41.729093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.40409375,"end":44.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.564093750000005,"end":45.087218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.64409375,"end":46.369718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.791593750000004,"end":47.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.939093750000005,"end":48.580343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.96846875,"end":56.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.422843750000006,"end":63.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.767843750000004,"end":64.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.86471875000001,"end":66.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.10909375,"end":72.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.45846875000001,"end":75.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.27659375,"end":76.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.44096875000001,"end":78.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.91721875,"end":90.16034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.86909375,"end":94.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.42971875,"end":100.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.24721875,"end":103.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.91346875,"end":108.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.70596875000001,"end":115.42221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.74284375,"end":117.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.06721875000001,"end":119.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.16409375,"end":129.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.33971875,"end":133.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.15346875,"end":134.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.46971875,"end":140.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.58284375,"end":161.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.11534375000002,"end":166.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.33409375000002,"end":166.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.49846875,"end":178.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.58534375000002,"end":179.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.44596875000002,"end":186.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.51221875000002,"end":191.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.57909375,"end":210.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.64784375000002,"end":210.96846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.165,"end":31.185,"text":"很高興今天大家草野不分草野大家都為了這個動物保護一起來努力那台灣民眾黨為了深化我國動物保護理念提升動物的這個福利並且是跟國際動保的潮流接軌所以我們這次提出了動保法修正草案我們有兩個非常先進的立法"},{"start":32.162,"end":59.675,"text":"第一個 我們非常重視動物的福利層次所以台灣民眾黨特別重視動物的安良我們明確地徵定動物的長照規範我們要針對年長患有慢性疾病或者是長期傷產的動物我們要提供安寧跟中老的照顧這展現我們對生命尊嚴的一個重視"},{"start":60.936,"end":77.99,"text":"另外也有一個非常先進的一個立法就是為了要保護這個動物如果有發生騷擾傷害內帶棄養動物這個行為經過法院判決確定者我們要求要接受心理輔導"},{"start":79.963,"end":88.648,"text":"就是內袋動物者經過法院判決確定要接受心理輔導以預防他再犯進一步落實動物的保護這是兩個經過台灣民眾黨多次討論以後推動動物的長照第二個對於內袋動物者要求心理輔導這是兩個很先進的一個立法"},{"start":98.894,"end":117.733,"text":"另外重點包括我們對於動物定義進行擴充特別是在經濟的這個動物實驗動物跟寵物這個分類裡面我們新增一個繁殖就是確保動物從一開始出生的時候到中老他各個生命週期都在受到保護包括在繁殖這個階段另外呢這個"},{"start":120.199,"end":134.8,"text":"我們發現有一個很嚴重問題就是有些人用自行車或者動力交通工具或者是個人輔具他是用動物去做一個牽引所以我們在第五條裡面我明列的這個明定就是"},{"start":135.521,"end":158.752,"text":"包括動力交通工具 自行車跟個人行跡皆不得用寵物來牽引以防止有時候高速牽引導致動物的受傷而且一方面也是保障我們其他行人的安全另外對於違反動保法規定的行為我們這次修法要加強執法權的行使前線包括明確授權給主管機關跟動保的保護員你可以進入"},{"start":162.193,"end":186.761,"text":"各類動物的這個動物的這個場域進行稽查取締並且在必要的時候你可以採取及時的這個強制的這個措施保護動物免於受到這個危害另外呢我們這個法則這次也會要求要加重法則規範從犯者如果一犯再犯再從犯者要特別加重他的有期徒刑這也提升法律的這個威嚇力量跟執行力量"},{"start":187.571,"end":209.686,"text":"好這一次的這個動保法修正是不分草野我蠻期待啊農業部可以早一點提出這個對案共同來保護我們這個動物那這一次最主要是要建立一個周延的動物保護這個體系強化社會尊重生命這個價值更重要的也要符合國際社會的這個標準讓我們整個台灣那個動物保護整個水平是可以拉高很期待我們草野一起來努力謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160750","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160750","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423691489688f6fede0173c0ba1d923b4b8db04c4aea0d98bed81a1e607ac3a0220a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"09:21:46 - 09:24:31","影片長度":"00:02:45","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T09:21:46+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T09:24:31+08:00","duration":165,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.83159375,"end":26.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.54159375,"end":35.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.384093750000005,"end":90.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.61159375000001,"end":139.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.54909375,"end":164.88284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.297,"end":34.817,"text":"謝謝主席 楊瓊瑜發言針對於主席所排定今天的法案那巡檔本席給予高度的肯定那本院委員楊瓊瑜 羅廷偉 洪孟凱等21人有鑒於惡意傷害動物致使傷之事件屢見不鮮引起了社會的公憤那實務上因虐傷動物案件之判定"},{"start":35.878,"end":42.666,"text":"標準非常的嚴苛 導致許多明顯有虐待動物逝死的情況卻沒有辦法依照動物保護法來懲處 使有修法的必要並刪除動物需有負數之前提本行認為傷害就是傷害 沒有說要達到負數才能夠嚴懲"},{"start":57.882,"end":86.654,"text":"那增加暴力以及实施其他凌虐方式呢致动物死亡情节重大者也因相关的罚则来论处以减缓虐待动物事件发生落实动物权益的维护所以凝聚了动物保护法第25条及25条之一修正草案那也敬请大家来支持其中最重要的第25条呢也就是罚金的部分由原先的20万"},{"start":87.894,"end":109.369,"text":"到300萬為上限了我們調整到200萬為上限了那麼調整為30萬元以上300萬元以下的罰金那特別也就是原本的這個條文是致動物肢體嚴重殘缺或重要器官功能喪失那本行希望能夠改為"},{"start":110.29,"end":139.409,"text":"修正為致動物肢體或器官功能損傷而不是整個喪屍這個也希望得到同仁以及行政部門的支持那麼25條之一最重要的就從剛剛本席所說的是致複數動物死亡情節重大者才能夠處一年以上五年以下的有期徒刑那併合法金那同時呢本席在這個25條之一是提案修正"},{"start":140.73,"end":164.626,"text":"使用药物枪械暴力或施以其他凌虐方式致动物死亡者希望修正如此能够好好的真正的维护保护我们的动物以上建言希望在修法的过程到时候我们在做整个法案的讨论时希望能够得到行政部门的一个同意跟各位同仁谢谢"}]}},{"id":"160828","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160828","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369f6518cbb8e762f2a8b6df88a6e7dffca3679622006e3328b093032237ac699db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:57:47 - 13:14:06","影片長度":"00:16:19","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場(廠)墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:57:47+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T13:14:06+08:00","duration":979,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.384093750000002,"end":10.695968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.20221875,"end":13.547843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.649093750000002,"end":15.488468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.32346875,"end":18.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.42034375,"end":21.192218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.31034375,"end":34.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.502218750000004,"end":58.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.37159375,"end":66.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.26534375,"end":68.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.91471875,"end":71.80034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.12096875,"end":73.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.92659375000001,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.83784375,"end":75.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.90909375000001,"end":78.58409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.60096875,"end":78.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.02284375,"end":79.19159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.19159375000001,"end":79.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.38971875,"end":80.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.82409375,"end":83.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.28784375000001,"end":85.31721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.07659375,"end":88.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.45596875000001,"end":97.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.00721875,"end":99.40784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.49221875,"end":112.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.78971875,"end":113.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.08909375,"end":121.56471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.45909375000001,"end":127.47096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.63971875000001,"end":145.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.79284375,"end":181.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.96034375000002,"end":192.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.31721875000002,"end":202.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.44221875000002,"end":224.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.68784375,"end":245.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.43971875000003,"end":250.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.55284375000002,"end":268.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.81596875,"end":275.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.59971875,"end":278.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.92409375,"end":286.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.72034375000004,"end":315.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.66096875,"end":316.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.84221875000003,"end":319.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.37346875000003,"end":319.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.30159375,"end":321.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.17471875,"end":323.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.67659375,"end":333.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.88596875,"end":334.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.79284375000003,"end":338.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.37034375,"end":343.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.77034375,"end":353.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.10221875,"end":355.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.36784375,"end":365.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.13409375000003,"end":371.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.74971875,"end":375.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.52096875,"end":374.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.67284375,"end":375.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.98471875,"end":377.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.21659375,"end":378.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.70596875,"end":378.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.72284375000004,"end":378.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.46534375000005,"end":381.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.16534375000003,"end":383.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.02596875,"end":383.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.07659375000003,"end":383.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.11034375,"end":383.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.12721875,"end":384.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.17346875000004,"end":384.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.49409375000005,"end":393.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.93159375000005,"end":411.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.05909375000005,"end":416.45534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.51034375,"end":417.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.72471875,"end":422.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.07034375,"end":426.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.13721875000005,"end":443.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.06721875000005,"end":485.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.72721875,"end":486.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.06034375,"end":500.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.94534375,"end":494.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.69096875,"end":502.51784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.55971875000006,"end":504.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.94784375000006,"end":516.4228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.5578437500001,"end":524.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.8815937500001,"end":529.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.3447187500001,"end":545.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.15659375,"end":558.4753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.25159375,"end":569.6297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.19909375,"end":580.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":580.3959687500001,"end":585.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.3359687500001,"end":589.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.94721875,"end":598.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":599.17784375,"end":605.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":605.6240937499999,"end":611.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":611.9522187499999,"end":612.9309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.4709687500001,"end":624.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.92909375,"end":630.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":631.40909375,"end":634.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":634.36221875,"end":635.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":635.91471875,"end":663.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":663.9778437500001,"end":674.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.26284375,"end":683.7722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.26159375,"end":684.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.27409375,"end":697.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":697.0190937500001,"end":701.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":702.4865937500001,"end":707.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":707.8190937500001,"end":712.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":712.5947187500001,"end":720.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":720.2390937499999,"end":724.8290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":725.31846875,"end":735.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":737.31659375,"end":743.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":740.69159375,"end":741.1303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":744.21846875,"end":748.4540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":748.79159375,"end":754.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":755.28846875,"end":767.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":755.30534375,"end":758.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":767.8940937500001,"end":777.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":777.1922187499999,"end":789.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":790.2197187500001,"end":795.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":796.4128437500001,"end":804.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":805.9640937500001,"end":809.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":810.5034687500001,"end":811.9040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":812.4778437500001,"end":815.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":816.03846875,"end":829.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":826.7878437500001,"end":840.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":841.09784375,"end":857.1459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":858.0234687500001,"end":872.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":872.97471875,"end":896.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":897.32534375,"end":913.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":914.63909375,"end":915.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":915.3647187500001,"end":916.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":917.28846875,"end":922.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":923.1609687500002,"end":958.4465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":960.1509687500002,"end":968.1328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":968.5547187500001,"end":969.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":969.46596875,"end":970.1072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":970.19159375,"end":970.6303437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.407,"end":34.615,"text":"好 那個麻煩請部長跟指南署林署長好 部長請 署長請陳委員好部長好那剛才武力華委員有特別關心到就是在去年12月25號台北市跨年晚會我們的這個原住民青年墜落的一個重大職災的案件那"},{"start":35.575,"end":58.625,"text":"我想要請教一下因為之前呢就我有質詢要求那部長也發了公文喔就是說對於這個重大職災的這個檢查報告要提供給家屬要完整提供給家屬那請問一下這一件的這個調查報告有沒有提供給家屬了"},{"start":62.355,"end":82.735,"text":"目前我們的規定就是要提供給家屬那委員是指就是家屬有收到了嗎因為從12月25號到現在已經是現在4月底了是委員是指哪一個個案因為我們目前一直在詢問要求的什麼台北市的那個對阿"},{"start":86.144,"end":112.315,"text":"那個委員不好意思我們可能要再了解一下對你如果不知道你就說你不知道沒有關係啦齁那所以你現在沒有掌握嘛沒有掌握說這個調查報告是不是有完整提供給家屬了我們再來了解一下好那我想你還呃我想有一件事更需要被了解的是說這個職災報告是否和事實吻合符合這件事情我想是更重要的齁"},{"start":114.481,"end":133.96,"text":"所以因为我为什么要在这里提出这样子的事情是因为在今年的4月26号其实也就没几天了那我来念一下我们刚好办公室有这个案例有接到陈情"},{"start":134.62,"end":144.968,"text":"那這個 左邊這個是勞工的一個自述的一個版本那右邊是檢查單位的調查 包括一個檢查單位的版本那我唸給大家聽"},{"start":146.877,"end":175.867,"text":"老公自己写说那天怪手在用布钓用布绳吊挂水泥寒管在旋转至我头顶上方约两米高处要下降时突然布绳断裂我原本要去把管扶正整个水泥寒管先砸到我的头后来我往后倒失去意识二到三秒后清醒后我的左右脚完全被"},{"start":176.767,"end":201.335,"text":"完全被壓在破碎的水泥喊管下左腳完全變形公司要求我說喊管是用吊車吊掛的然後用怪手移位然後要我說喊管突然與布繩脫落才會砸傷我不然他們說不按照這樣講沒有辦法請到保險董事長也有說保險是勞檢"},{"start":203.816,"end":222.846,"text":"保險或是勞檢來問的時候家屬一律說不清楚他被這樣要求那目前右腳他的這個折骨骨折那左腳左腳踝是以下是截肢的好這是勞工的版本那麼檢查單位的這個版本卻變成這個樣子"},{"start":225.227,"end":250.54,"text":"丰和丰营造有限公司所雇劳工林宏伟那于工区内管是函管安装作业时与函管沟取配合挖土机移动函管时目视确认函管接口有无对齐于前述安装过程中脚部未离开函管接口处"},{"start":251.956,"end":274.686,"text":"導致積聚移動寒管時發生寒管壓狀靈元逐步致傷後隨靈元經送往林口長庚醫院救治經救治後靈元左腳腳踝以下截肢目前仍住院觀察中我想這兩個版本對照起來大家可以理解我們原住民老公是這樣被對待的"},{"start":275.666,"end":300.231,"text":"那你這個檢查單位的版本其實後來就變成是勞工自己的疏失了嘛所以我舉這個例子只是要告訴你們也要鄭重提醒說這個重大職災檢查報告檢查報告提供給家屬是很好但是你那個報告內容到底和事實符不符合我想這個就是你們要注意的"},{"start":300.931,"end":320.569,"text":"當然回到我所關心的這個跨年晚會的那個就是原住民青年墜落的事情我也希望你們去了解一下目前處理的狀況因為在這個禮拜一他們又開記者會在抗議你看從去年底12月發生到現在已經過了幾個月了"},{"start":322.23,"end":343.257,"text":"大家還在吵嘛那當然這個案件就是說如果他們有找對民意代表大家對法規很熟我們可以很快把它處理好但是如果他們沒有找對人的時候可能就是變成羅生門或者大家就吵翻天了那這個部分你們是不是可以在最短時間內了解再回報給本席"},{"start":345.027,"end":364.734,"text":"跟委員說明目前他的報告書還沒有送到就是去年跨年的這個案件他報告書還沒送到我們會來來跟他再來做詢問那第二個是我們會在這個案件因為這個案件社會很關注我們會來了解一下目前其實包括這個職債的勞工他的家庭跟"},{"start":366.212,"end":374.76,"text":"跟台北市勞檢處目前在處理的狀況那必要的協助什麼時候可以去完成這個了解回報給本席今天嗎"},{"start":382.219,"end":411.116,"text":"我們時間要不要暫停 要不要直接說跟委員報告 那個報告書他現在已經送到署這邊來那署裡面這邊有備查 但如果說委員需要的話我們可以把那個 會後你們立刻提供那當然回到我們今天就是這個職災死亡最多的危害類型也就是最弱傷害的預防我想要請教就是首先是這個高速作業高價作業以及高空作業在法規跟實務上的預防措施是不是有所不同"},{"start":414.433,"end":441.029,"text":"跟文包確實現在在法規上應該是在名稱上有不同我想應該不只名稱上實質的處理上應該是非常的不同那事實上這個高速作業包括了高架作業跟垂降作業也就是大家熟知的高空作業那我們辦公室去查了非常多的資料才找到這張圖片"},{"start":442.17,"end":467.404,"text":"我们发现光是坠落灾害预防涉及的各种作业安全措施跟管理它是非常复杂也非常困难我想请教署长你们在定定坠落打击加强年的目标值的时候有没有想到降低30%其实是一个非常困难并且有高度挑战的目标"},{"start":468.044,"end":478.096,"text":"那你們在這個去年是否有掌握各種高處作業的這個災害現況然後設定具體的介入手段檢討實際發生災害的原因然後趕快來調查預防介入的方法嗎有沒有"},{"start":488.398,"end":500.532,"text":"呃謝謝委員確實啊剛剛委員在點出來的部分目前最高的在呃發生災害最高的就是在屋頂作業還有施工下一些開口那我們大概都是針對這個部分在做呃檢查的部分一定是重點部分就放在這裡嗯"},{"start":505.271,"end":529.399,"text":"檢查的重點我是說你們有沒有很快速的去調整預防介入這些方法不然你們設的這個百分之三十的目標值一直都沒有辦法達標啊是這個目標是很艱鉅對那我們現在是常常是幾乎每個月會去看看目前發生的災害因為如果你們沒有做的就是說沒有的話或者沒有做得很好"},{"start":530.419,"end":545.314,"text":"可能就是說你們要達成這個目標感覺是在碰碰運氣啦那即使是你們真的達標了本席也要質疑因為我剛剛有舉那個案例了嘛可能在這個檢查報告跟統計上就是被做了手腳了嘛"},{"start":546.635,"end":569.07,"text":"我現在不是在亂講話因為你們已經就是被我抓到一些案例了嘛那再不然就是說說你們未來對於這個墜落預防會不會會不會要調整有一個設有一個新的目標也就是繼續加強打擊墜落那不會因為一次沒有達標就放棄了"},{"start":571.85,"end":598.032,"text":"我們不會因為一次沒有達標就放棄我們會來調整一些更精進的做法來把這個目標趕快來達成所以會調整的是你們的做法而不是百分之三十的這個目標是嗎我們今年還是會用這個這個去年的目標來作為我們的目標因為這個目標確實是有它的挑戰性那可是我想我們會再把做法上面做出一些精進"},{"start":599.346,"end":624.042,"text":"因為當初如果說設定目標是20%那我想也是就可以達標了啦那只是說我要肯定說你們企圖心很強但是預防介入的手段不夠精準那而且你們的減災目標分配給這個各個檢查單位啊事實上也沒有多加過問說他們如何在這個打擊墜落你們都沒有問啊"},{"start":625.123,"end":640.363,"text":"所以我覺得說新署長上任呢應該要調整一下觀念就是說失敗不可恥但是你要檢討原因啦那即便你成功了你更要知道成功的原因你才可以維持嘛對不對"},{"start":641.064,"end":663.238,"text":"好那最弱他是非常困難預防的那我們從查到資料到歸納出幾個原因包括第一線作業很難設置這個防罪設備開口的這個防護不易失作而且作業時間很短那也怕麻煩以及說這個使用個人防護具會降低工作效率署長"},{"start":664.279,"end":673.93,"text":"這些挑戰你有沒有想過說要怎麼克服畢竟光靠這個檢查你也沒有那麼多的人力不是嗎"},{"start":676.374,"end":699.325,"text":"是謝謝委員 其實剛剛部長也有提到我們現在是要先從法治面這邊去處理再來就是我們在這個檢查的部分一定要要求這個所謂的大包這個營造廠要負起這個責任因為確實裡面很多都是包商跟包商之間這個作業一時突襲方便還是要有這個最大包的工地好那我想我再來談一個比較實際的問題就是說"},{"start":702.566,"end":724.338,"text":"本席想要建議你們啦就是說職安法裡面不是有這個退避權嗎那當勞工朋友有足夠的教育訓練知道說他們跟他一樣的勞工是如何發生職災的那當他發現說作業現場不夠安全的時候他可不可以行使這個退避權"},{"start":725.399,"end":753.455,"text":"尤其是這個工程的這些小包商啊那一旦說這個小包商行使了退避權那他可以領有原來的薪資或部分的薪資嗎 可以嗎跟委員報告 現在的條文確實有這樣規定就是他如果是危險退避 不能做不利的處分對啊 但是你可以保證他們 就是說特別是這些小包啊那他們如果行使了退避權 他們可不可以領有原來的薪資或部分的薪資"},{"start":756.103,"end":767.31,"text":"目前是沒有 我們沒有收到這樣的個案申訴或是說有這樣的一個事業單位行使這個第一線的勞工有做這樣的一個叫做退避的部分"},{"start":768.107,"end":794.647,"text":"我想你們沒有收到並不是人家不想行使而是不敢因為行使了可能就領不到錢所以也有可能是因為害怕所以就你們遲遲到現在很快樂的說我們沒有接到任何的通報我想這個不是一件可喜可賀的事情所以我問這個問題是希望你們能夠宣示讓製作人"},{"start":796.508,"end":815.018,"text":"有這樣的狀況發生小包他們可以行使退避權也可以保證可以領到他們的薪資你能不能做到現在依法是有這個權限空間的那你要讓他們讓他們有這個勇氣去行使啊"},{"start":816.552,"end":842.142,"text":"確實如果他因為除了法規上面的原因以外他如果遇到這樣的需要可是他不行使或是他提出這樣的權利的話我覺得我們來思考一下你們應該要主動出席因為就像我們在原住民的碎石祭儀假可以請一天返鄉去行使我們的責任但是問題是很多人不敢請因為怕請了就沒工作了"},{"start":843.123,"end":853.579,"text":"這是一樣的道理所以這個希望你們能夠主動出擊那實務上因為勞工擔心被貼標籤或者喪失薪資因此就不敢退避那就是說這個你們應該真的要"},{"start":858.089,"end":872.008,"text":"更要幫助這些勞工那基於自身保護的這個生命安全仍然是可以獲得一定的報酬不然就是我們職安法上規定的這個退聘權它就變成一個擺設性的花瓶了不是嗎"},{"start":873.029,"end":896.618,"text":"好最後就是說要請署長你去檢討你們的宣導教材太複雜也太專業了看一下你們的這個墜落危害預防宣導的這個海報你看到密密麻麻這樣一個我這樣乍看之下我也不是很清楚說你們這個網站上的教材是要給這個衛生給這個安全衛生管理人員看的還是給勞工朋友看的"},{"start":897.658,"end":921.848,"text":"我也不曉得這個實際上貼起來它的那個比例是多大啦你看那幾張我就看到白天都灰了同樣的在開口的部分下一張簡報我們看一下勞工商人廁所開門之後人就踩空董醫生就掉到地下二樓宣告不治死亡然後再來看下一張就是這個是高空作業的也是非常危險還有再看這個屋頂作業的"},{"start":923.804,"end":950.206,"text":"也都就是看起來都是危險重重那我只知道說出事的都是第一線的勞工朋友那特別是很多都是我們原住民的同胞所以可不可以設計製作一些勞工可以輕易理解的教材或者針對我們這個在文化特殊性在語言上有特殊性的我們原住民或者是外籍勞工朋友可以懂的這些教材我想"},{"start":951.708,"end":969.507,"text":"這樣子一定對於這個整個防止墜落有很大的幫助也早日協助你們達到30%的目標好 關於教材的部分或者是資訊怎麼樣讓勞工朋友更容易掌握跟了解我想這部分我們就來改進好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160801","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160801","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b94236940193d3a50cad2fe3c0ba1d923b4b8dbd78ea87b1712f882be90c14cbbb16b115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"11:42:31 - 11:55:28","影片長度":"00:12:57","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:42:31+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:55:28+08:00","duration":777,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.970968750000001,"end":9.497843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.953468750000003,"end":10.442843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.41721875,"end":51.010343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.80346875,"end":53.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.38971875,"end":67.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.05909375,"end":64.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.50596875000001,"end":75.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.03721875000001,"end":68.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.20909375000001,"end":77.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.79534375,"end":95.39159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.25909375,"end":81.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.51409375,"end":98.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.75409375000001,"end":140.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.05346875000001,"end":99.42471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.36346875,"end":154.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.36971875,"end":157.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.68596875,"end":156.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.69409375,"end":204.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.02846875,"end":214.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.28846875000002,"end":219.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.49034375000002,"end":221.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.63784375,"end":221.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.46471875,"end":221.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.53221875000003,"end":223.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.57409375,"end":223.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.59096875,"end":224.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.59909375,"end":225.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.61596875,"end":225.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.91971875000002,"end":225.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.97034375,"end":249.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.16784375,"end":231.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.72596875000002,"end":268.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.70659375,"end":266.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.07346875,"end":273.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.73096875000005,"end":277.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.96221875000003,"end":287.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.82971875000004,"end":292.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.93034375,"end":305.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.03409375,"end":311.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.02534375000005,"end":307.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.10096875,"end":308.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.82659375000003,"end":309.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.22284375000004,"end":311.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.56034375,"end":311.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.62784375,"end":319.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.67346875000004,"end":336.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.39846875,"end":323.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.69971875000005,"end":355.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.46909375,"end":372.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.27659375,"end":390.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.03784375000004,"end":421.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.51409375000003,"end":394.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.34034375000005,"end":396.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.06971875000005,"end":400.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.21221875000003,"end":406.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.78159375,"end":411.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.68659375000004,"end":449.32784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.17159375000006,"end":458.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.08159375,"end":462.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.54096875000005,"end":462.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.94596875,"end":471.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.45096875,"end":487.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.08971875000003,"end":521.6372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.0715937500001,"end":526.5478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.53534375,"end":539.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.03284375,"end":529.0959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.2390937499999,"end":531.7959687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.73159375,"end":541.4653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.14909375,"end":552.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.92346875,"end":554.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.2690937500001,"end":595.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.1909687500001,"end":605.2022187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.6240937499999,"end":613.2009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.94346875,"end":616.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.94721875,"end":618.3647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.60534375,"end":619.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.84971875,"end":623.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.86659375,"end":620.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.4565937500001,"end":624.4734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.4734687499999,"end":624.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.49034375,"end":626.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.50721875,"end":633.2822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.79284375,"end":634.8515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.1553437499999,"end":645.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.92596875,"end":657.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.87346875,"end":683.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.85221875,"end":660.3328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":667.28534375,"end":667.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.36534375,"end":669.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.4397187500001,"end":679.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.5109687500001,"end":705.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.05846875,"end":693.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":705.0347187500001,"end":705.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":705.9965937500001,"end":713.4722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.11784375,"end":715.2778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.2778437500001,"end":719.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":719.7665937500001,"end":731.3259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":723.5634687500001,"end":723.7153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":730.95471875,"end":744.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":735.2747187500001,"end":735.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":743.62784375,"end":748.2178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":748.0322187500001,"end":757.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":757.0772187500002,"end":764.6372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":760.3003437500001,"end":760.8572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":760.92471875,"end":761.7009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":762.29159375,"end":766.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":765.53159375,"end":775.0828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.2778437500001,"end":770.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":771.8090937500001,"end":774.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":774.6440937500001,"end":775.1840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":776.36534375,"end":777.24284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.127,"end":10.391,"text":"謝謝主席那我想請部長陳部長部長剛才這個邱志偉委員在問有關於這個在入境的時候這個審查本席也接到很多的澄清就是說只要是從不是日本或者是歐美國家回來的都需要領一個"},{"start":29.266,"end":49.311,"text":"就是沒有一個卡然後必須在機場接受檢驗但是有很多鄉親意思說我也沒有手提行李啊但是他就必須大排長龍而且那個隊伍甚至高達一個小時是不是部長這邊能夠安排說檢查你有手提行李的你才檢查你沒有手提行李的你讓他在那裡排隊這樣合理嗎"},{"start":51.837,"end":76.557,"text":"我想第一個部分就是我們因為人流的關係我們是針對高風險區的時候才會進到手提行李的部分那你剛才說的在高風險區進來的話他沒有手提行李是不是要分流一下可以把它分流對對把它分流反正他沒有行李他也等了一個多小時然後他問現場說我沒有行李我可以先走嗎他說不行你要在這裡排隊那就不合理嘛好不好這個現在應該是不用吧"},{"start":76.877,"end":80.979,"text":"沒有現在要這個禮拜天這個禮拜天我才有鄉親打電話來鄉親才打電話來抗議鄉親打電話來抗議而且這個都是一些企業家怎麼大家一群企業家去開會全部被塞在那個隊伍裡面好不好部長這一點如果說沒有帶行李的話我想我們用分流的方式是這一點麻煩部長"},{"start":99.71,"end":119.323,"text":"那另外部長最近有很多返鄉從農的這些親農朋友就提出了一些困難點那我也想在這裡跟部長反映希望部長能夠正面回應協助解決那現行規定中農民如果要申請外籍移工通常需要具備這個農保資格"},{"start":121.124,"end":136.458,"text":"那我手上就有一個非常值得作為檢討範例的案例喔那我先問一下部長說部長您歡迎說過去可能是等於是勞保然後他可能非志願離職之後回到從事農業這樣子的勞動力嗎"},{"start":140.401,"end":156.584,"text":"我想這個也是我們從事農業的來源之一啦就是過往他還年輕但是過往曾經從事其他的工作用勞保的方式那後來返鄉勿農以後我覺得這塊人也是需要照顧的所以部長是歡迎的是歡迎他們回來"},{"start":158.085,"end":185.559,"text":"我舉例一下 這個農民當初因為非自願離職遭資遣那符合勞保條例第九條之一 規定說被採檢資遣且加保年資滿15年以上的這個勞工可以繼續參加勞保 直到符合請領老人給付的日期那也就是可以一路加保到50歲因此呢 他選擇就留在勞保體系當中 確保更完整的這個退休保障那"},{"start":188.061,"end":213.572,"text":"選擇什麼樣子的社會福利是他身為公民的一個權益也是法律給他的保障那他來成農應該對於我們農業也是一個正面的幫助那所以我就想說部長那他已經確定回鄉雇農多年但現在這不是個案喔因為他是勞保不是農保所以他在申請農業移工的時候面臨重重困難部長你可以有替他們解套的方案嗎"},{"start":215.302,"end":223.806,"text":"一個部分他如果原來城市老保他可以轉農保他的權益不會變他的權益不會變怎麼會不會變我以前我們的老保的那個同仁怎麼不會變"},{"start":225.612,"end":248.773,"text":"根委員報告他如果從勞保然後退保要參加農保只要符合我們農保的規定我現在在跟你講的就是我們的政府保障他身為公民的權益買一種社會福利他怎麼選擇是他公民的權益耶他保勞保對他的下半身保障他可能退休一個月可以領一萬多他轉農保"},{"start":250.775,"end":255.978,"text":"他一個月只能領八千多 你可以理解嗎當然他希望他繼續勞保啦這是他身為公民的權益選擇不同的社會福利是他的權益欸你怎麼會說你可以退保加入農保啊你知道我真正在問你的問題嗎部長他不了解叫他去旁邊欸 部長"},{"start":268.266,"end":292.361,"text":"部長我在問你 他不理解這個問題我知道 我知道你不理解來 部長你講就是說那個輕農他可以選擇他原來要繼續在這個勞保體系或者他要加農保他要衡量他自身的這個權利是 所以我問的不是這個問題我問的是假設他要升起移工他不需要農保那有沒有其他的解套方案呢"},{"start":293.201,"end":310.887,"text":"以現在目前的規定是沒有辦法因為以農業部來講我們是針對農保本身從事農業的人我們會來協助他申請外籍移工但是你剛才告訴我說你歡迎他們回來你歡迎他們回來務農但是你沒有辦法解決他們的困難"},{"start":312.267,"end":332.411,"text":"不具農保資格的部分如果你有銷售農產品的憑證的話這個我知道 全年銷售金額25萬以上或者是投入農資15萬以上並附佐證可是真正的困難就在這裡了 部長真正的困難就是實際上這套程序從佐證 舉證 審查到核可上難度明顯"},{"start":337.765,"end":354.819,"text":"高出農保非常的多那這一點呢我相信如果您去問實際執行這農糧署基層的單位一定可以了解很清楚說真的是困難重重所以我現在要跟部長反映的就是說我們既然歡迎這些勞動力回到"},{"start":355.66,"end":358.784,"text":"農業那我們有沒有辦法去解決他們的問題呢就是說你這個舉證的流程你審查的流程有沒有辦法簡化或者是放寬讓他們實際可以得到我們農業農糧單位的一個幫助呢"},{"start":372.341,"end":386.759,"text":"我想第一個部分如果在程序上能夠簡化我一定要求我們農糧署盡快的把它簡化那第二個部分就是你剛才說的這些金額是不是有可能放寬那其實以現在來講它的生產資財一年15萬其實"},{"start":389.542,"end":393.986,"text":"合理我只是希望說他的申請流程一定要簡化而且就是說你舉證你要讓他有多一點的舉證空間你不是說局限在什麼什麼因為你也知道現在農業你要開發票是很困難的你是不是有什麼購買的交易的名證等等"},{"start":411.9,"end":433.368,"text":"那包括說是不是他有沒有實際在務農其實我知道說你們規範這麼嚴格是怕說沒有實際在務農的人他也要利用這個等於是compound來請農業移工但是我是希望說真正需要的人我沒有想辦法去幫助他們甚至很多農會都可以舉證說這個人是不是有實際在從事農業是不是能夠放寬這個舉證的"},{"start":438.191,"end":446.864,"text":"條件那還有多一點舉證的空間而不是說單一說你一定要什麼什麼那等於是限制了很多人都沒有辦法來受到我們這個農業部的幫助"},{"start":450.677,"end":458.485,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒我想這個部分針對整個的流程包括你舉證的流程包括舉證的這些單據看怎麼樣的簡化我想我們會請農糧署來做一個檢討然後重新來規定麻煩部長了這個我覺得對於我們現在面臨的農業問題是一個很好的解決辦法因為"},{"start":471.52,"end":484.314,"text":"他們要回來我們都很高興啊那這些比較年輕的勞動力願意回頭投身到農業等於為我們這個農業注入一股活水啊但是他們面臨的問題比過去務農的這些傳統的務農的這些老農"},{"start":488.138,"end":504.572,"text":"更多元更不一樣那另外一個另外一個我必須要講喔就是說友善環境植物保護資材補助這個政策喔其實非常受歡迎非常受歡迎呢就是等於是補助有機肥料那在補助農民減少"},{"start":507.294,"end":521.245,"text":"化學農藥的使用轉而採用生物農藥那補助的金額是購買憑證所列的金額的二分之一申請是從年初到經費用完那今年的預算編列多少您知道嗎"},{"start":523.08,"end":551.881,"text":"大概六千五百萬六千四百九十幾萬大概六千五百萬左右六千四百六十九萬那是從這個農業發展基金所提撥的那它雖然是一個縣市農業縣況來分配雲林也拿到了算是一個高的配比21%的對一千三百多萬一個蠻高的一個配比但是呢實際能夠仍然沒有辦法滿足實際的需求通常一開放喔"},{"start":553.167,"end":569.644,"text":"1月就用完了1月就申請完了所以這一點我必須要跟部長提醒說因為農友們之間會互相交流在其他的縣市類似桃園南投申請的難度就"},{"start":570.325,"end":595.075,"text":"比較低 因為他們的作物多元 不夠多元 他們作物比較單一所以他們可能使用這個這個友善環境植物保護的資材比較少那是不是有辦法重新調配說需求比較低的地方 他的比例可以釋放出來 甚至說甚至說是不是整體的預算規模太小 要不要增加這個預算規模呢"},{"start":596.395,"end":623.318,"text":"我第一個跟委員報告這個預算規模大概一年都是六千多萬左右那以去年來講如果不夠的時候我們還會去爭取相關的這些二倍金的部分不過今年就比較困難了因為今年我們在預算刪減的時候公務撥補基金被刪了九千萬雖然說刪得很少這個是一點點而已沒有不對但是因為你刪了以後就不能動二倍金"},{"start":624.503,"end":640.874,"text":"我跟部長講部長假設你真正有需求你提出我們本委員會不會不支持只要是地方真正的需求沒有 這個我一定要跟委員報告齁其他的經費刪減是一件事情但是你刪的公務撥補基金雖然說刪的九千萬很少"},{"start":641.354,"end":660.079,"text":"但是一旦刪的話依規定就不能動二倍金是 這個我們大家再來討論我先跟部長講就是說那針對這個友善植物環境保護的資產補助這個總預算你可不可以考慮下年度可以把它變高一點下個年度我們希望能夠變高第二個部分就像委員講的不同縣市它可能在時間上在種類上像雲林市比較多樣化"},{"start":670.342,"end":691.094,"text":"所以我也要求防險署這邊分兩次然後第二次的時候如果說其他的縣市沒有用完的話我們就做調整大概用這種方式做調整因為真的有一些縣市他的作物比較單一他用不上那是不是這個等於是用在真正有需要的地方我們盡可能做調度啦謝謝部長"},{"start":694.136,"end":719.224,"text":"那最後我想可能時間也有限了那最後這一次特別預算4100億裡面本來我們農業部是說可以分到180億那這又增加了這個等於是從880億增加到930億裡面我們農業部有沒有增加呢沒有 我們農業部還是維持180億這一點會不會太少了我想部長一定要極力再爭取多一點"},{"start":719.844,"end":743.714,"text":"我想第一個現在的關稅最後的關稅還沒有確定嘛那萬一以後關稅定案以後如果比現在的衝擊還大的時候我想我們一定會再向行政院去徵取經費而且呢我目前本席聽到就是上次我們去關西那台灣雕所有的中盤商現在上次我們不是說應該危機可以化為轉機嗎結果現在中盤商都出去壓低那個漁民的價格欸"},{"start":745.775,"end":758.08,"text":"池邊價就已經上漲了2塊到5塊沒有 昨天好幾個那個產銷班都來跟我講 那個養殖班啊都來跟我講說直接產地價下降10元如果有那個產地 產銷班的資訊你可以給我們我們可以來處理對啊 太可惡了 這裝盤商下去就直接給他殺10塊這可能是有特定的產銷班 那個產銷班去壓價啦對啊 太可惡了 我不想變成要個案去處理啦好啊好啊 那這一點如果有資料的話 我們來處理 謝謝"},{"start":776.378,"end":776.398,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160842","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160842","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369bd631ba656f86293385a4fd0f0fffa49d80416c5864e049c4447f47351fe5e595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"10:15:39 - 10:32:05","影片長度":"00:16:26","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T10:15:39+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:32:05+08:00","duration":986,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.6003437500000002,"end":3.1697187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.814718750000001,"end":7.894718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.69096875,"end":17.715968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.90159375,"end":18.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.610343750000002,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.90096875,"end":22.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.02721875,"end":25.191593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.22534375,"end":28.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.089718750000003,"end":32.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.92034375,"end":35.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.78471875,"end":39.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.446593750000005,"end":42.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.758468750000006,"end":44.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.985968750000005,"end":47.399093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.820968750000006,"end":48.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.81659375,"end":50.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.55034375,"end":54.891593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.78596875,"end":56.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.781593750000006,"end":57.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.962843750000005,"end":58.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.127218750000004,"end":60.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.375968750000006,"end":61.320968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.69221875,"end":65.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.75909375,"end":68.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.48846875000001,"end":74.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.95596875000001,"end":77.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.67284375,"end":81.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.11096875000001,"end":87.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.89909375,"end":91.61159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.16846875,"end":94.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.75034375,"end":96.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.87659375000001,"end":98.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.07034375,"end":100.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.02784375,"end":102.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.93471875,"end":104.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.80784375,"end":106.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.15346875,"end":108.25034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.75659375000001,"end":110.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.30909375,"end":110.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.89971875,"end":117.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.96721875,"end":111.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.44284375000001,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.60284375,"end":122.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.03284375000001,"end":125.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.73284375000001,"end":128.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.70284375,"end":131.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.11159375,"end":134.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.26721875,"end":137.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.68034375000002,"end":137.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.83221875,"end":137.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.96721875,"end":138.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.03471875,"end":138.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.05159375,"end":138.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.11909375000002,"end":138.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.04721875,"end":140.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.13159375,"end":142.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.29159375,"end":142.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.29971875,"end":149.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.65721875,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.69909375,"end":155.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.83784375000002,"end":157.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.03159375,"end":162.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.58784375000002,"end":165.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.28346875,"end":168.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.75971875000002,"end":171.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.07159375,"end":173.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.29909375,"end":177.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.28159375,"end":181.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.40346875,"end":182.77034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.85034375,"end":187.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.55409375000002,"end":191.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.45221875000001,"end":194.54909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.76846875,"end":197.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.73846875,"end":199.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.86471875,"end":202.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.44221875000002,"end":205.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.75409375,"end":206.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.58096875,"end":207.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.76221875000002,"end":210.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.18784375,"end":214.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.83284375000002,"end":217.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.92096875000001,"end":218.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.10221875000002,"end":223.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.42221875,"end":239.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.09096875,"end":237.14159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.03159375,"end":240.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.17909375000002,"end":240.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.48284375000003,"end":240.60096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.60096875000002,"end":242.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.19971875000002,"end":245.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.25409375,"end":248.54909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.76846875,"end":248.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.97096875000003,"end":249.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.03846875000002,"end":249.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.25784375,"end":249.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.27471875,"end":249.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.83159375000002,"end":249.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.88221875000002,"end":249.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.96659375000002,"end":252.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.37971875000002,"end":252.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.02096875,"end":257.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.47596875,"end":258.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.28159375,"end":263.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.63971875000004,"end":270.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.91284375000004,"end":274.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.09346875,"end":277.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.19846875,"end":280.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.52721875000003,"end":284.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.06659375000004,"end":288.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.08284375,"end":290.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.97284375000004,"end":291.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.79534375000003,"end":294.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.68096875000003,"end":297.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.68471875,"end":300.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.60846875000004,"end":303.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.79784375,"end":306.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":306.97034375000004,"end":307.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.27409375,"end":308.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.45096875,"end":312.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.79221875,"end":314.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.72846875000005,"end":319.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.71096875,"end":322.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.69346875,"end":324.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.39784375,"end":325.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.66346875,"end":327.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.33409375,"end":329.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.51096875,"end":332.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.22346875,"end":334.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.38784375,"end":336.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.56909375000004,"end":339.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.68659375000004,"end":343.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.36534375,"end":345.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.49159375000005,"end":349.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.42346875000004,"end":352.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.75221875,"end":354.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":354.40596875,"end":354.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.79409375,"end":355.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.58721875000003,"end":356.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.07221875000005,"end":358.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.11409375,"end":360.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.63284375,"end":361.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.38784375,"end":364.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.76721875000004,"end":364.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.10471875,"end":365.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":366.25221875,"end":366.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.79221875,"end":369.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.62721875,"end":370.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.38221875000005,"end":373.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.14971875000003,"end":375.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.97221875,"end":376.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.56284375,"end":377.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.64284375,"end":378.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.48221875,"end":380.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.09784375000004,"end":382.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.38034375,"end":384.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.35471875,"end":387.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.81846875,"end":389.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.94471875000005,"end":393.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.52221875000004,"end":394.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.17596875000004,"end":396.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.84659375,"end":397.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.90971875,"end":399.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.25534375,"end":401.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.45346875,"end":403.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.59659375,"end":406.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.54534375000003,"end":409.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.12721875000005,"end":411.39284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.56159375000004,"end":413.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.89034375,"end":416.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.72534375000004,"end":419.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.94846875,"end":424.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.36534375,"end":427.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.54221875,"end":428.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.80784375,"end":431.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.77784375000005,"end":434.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.83221875000004,"end":435.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.36784375,"end":438.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.11846875000003,"end":439.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.82284375,"end":443.45534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.21471875000003,"end":445.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.07096875,"end":449.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.51346875,"end":450.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.66096875000005,"end":452.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.75346875,"end":454.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.99346875000003,"end":458.60909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.18284375,"end":460.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.53721875,"end":460.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.51596875,"end":468.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.85221875,"end":484.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.72846875000005,"end":479.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.59659375,"end":485.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.33909375,"end":487.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.12784375,"end":488.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.12346875000003,"end":490.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.82784375000006,"end":504.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.67034375000003,"end":499.17659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.06596875,"end":510.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.97221875,"end":512.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.74409375,"end":513.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.51596875,"end":515.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":515.49471875,"end":515.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.98409375,"end":517.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.63346875,"end":521.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.56971875,"end":523.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.6072187500001,"end":527.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.5603437500001,"end":528.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.46721875,"end":531.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.3359687500001,"end":534.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.68159375,"end":536.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.9428437500001,"end":537.8372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.9722187500001,"end":539.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.6597187500001,"end":541.4822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.0559687500001,"end":543.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.7097187500001,"end":547.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.2490937499999,"end":549.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.52721875,"end":553.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.17221875,"end":555.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.9778437500001,"end":557.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.7665937500001,"end":561.3272187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.0359687499999,"end":563.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.74034375,"end":565.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.2422187500001,"end":566.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.01409375,"end":569.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.2709687500001,"end":571.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.46909375,"end":573.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.59534375,"end":575.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.8059687500001,"end":578.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.67471875,"end":582.8090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.31534375,"end":584.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.13784375,"end":587.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.12471875,"end":590.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.62221875,"end":592.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.17034375,"end":600.1397187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.6628437500001,"end":604.3247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.7465937500001,"end":607.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.75034375,"end":609.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.9778437500001,"end":611.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":610.85534375,"end":613.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.6653437500001,"end":611.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.28971875,"end":620.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":620.96346875,"end":621.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.1828437500001,"end":624.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.78971875,"end":629.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.83971875,"end":630.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.08846875,"end":632.4722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.6240937499999,"end":632.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.65346875,"end":636.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.06221875,"end":639.6609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.1840937500001,"end":643.8459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.48721875,"end":645.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.05659375,"end":646.8159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.30534375,"end":649.1784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.4653437500001,"end":655.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.97909375,"end":660.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.8897187500002,"end":662.1553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.2565937500001,"end":665.9015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.2222187500001,"end":668.3147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.78721875,"end":672.7865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":672.9722187500001,"end":676.2122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.10659375,"end":677.8997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.4522187500002,"end":682.5065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.6540937500001,"end":688.1765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.53096875,"end":689.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":690.06659375,"end":690.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":690.8090937500001,"end":693.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.8803437500001,"end":696.3103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.05284375,"end":701.2547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":702.16596875,"end":705.0515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":704.4778437500001,"end":705.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":705.38909375,"end":707.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.73471875,"end":710.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":711.3459687500001,"end":714.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.04159375,"end":716.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":717.1172187500001,"end":719.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":719.98596875,"end":723.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.08221875,"end":728.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.4865937500001,"end":732.1528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":732.8447187500001,"end":735.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":732.8784687500001,"end":733.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.9834687500002,"end":739.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":739.66221875,"end":741.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.8559687500001,"end":744.2859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":745.02846875,"end":746.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":746.15909375,"end":746.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":746.96909375,"end":747.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.00284375,"end":747.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":747.01971875,"end":747.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.0365937500001,"end":747.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":747.96471875,"end":748.6059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":748.3359687500001,"end":751.2553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":751.64346875,"end":753.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":753.90471875,"end":758.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":758.93346875,"end":758.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":758.95034375,"end":769.1428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":771.15096875,"end":771.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":771.9778437500001,"end":786.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":785.3428437500002,"end":789.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":788.8022187500001,"end":790.2703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":790.2703437499999,"end":793.8815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":790.32096875,"end":790.4053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":794.3203437500001,"end":805.1709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":794.4384687500001,"end":794.6240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":801.27284375,"end":802.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":802.38659375,"end":802.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":805.47471875,"end":805.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":806.6897187500001,"end":808.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":808.9172187500001,"end":811.0772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":810.38534375,"end":812.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":812.35971875,"end":813.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":814.19909375,"end":815.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":816.6797187500001,"end":819.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":819.9197187500001,"end":821.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":822.1303437500001,"end":823.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":824.1384687500001,"end":824.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":825.2690937500001,"end":826.2647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":827.00721875,"end":828.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":828.57659375,"end":829.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":830.82096875,"end":833.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":833.9934687500001,"end":842.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":842.73471875,"end":847.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.1684687500001,"end":852.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":853.3659687500001,"end":854.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":855.3403437500001,"end":856.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":857.1797187500001,"end":860.6897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":861.1115937500001,"end":863.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":863.6597187500001,"end":864.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":865.70159375,"end":869.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":869.9878437500001,"end":871.2703437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":872.04659375,"end":874.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":874.7634687500001,"end":875.7084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":876.24846875,"end":877.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":877.75034375,"end":881.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":881.3615937500001,"end":881.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":881.71596875,"end":882.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":882.5090937500001,"end":884.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":885.1584687500001,"end":886.1203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":886.62659375,"end":887.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":888.31409375,"end":889.5459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":890.0859687500001,"end":892.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":892.54971875,"end":894.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":894.81096875,"end":899.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":899.9240937500001,"end":902.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":903.2822187500001,"end":904.4465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":904.90221875,"end":907.0790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":907.58534375,"end":909.1884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":909.4922187500001,"end":913.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":914.04846875,"end":915.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":916.30971875,"end":918.5203437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":919.29659375,"end":919.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":919.43159375,"end":920.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":920.51159375,"end":922.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":922.1147187500001,"end":929.1684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":925.00034375,"end":925.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":926.26596875,"end":926.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":929.6072187500001,"end":930.7209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":931.4128437500001,"end":932.0034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":932.4422187500002,"end":937.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":937.82534375,"end":939.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":939.7153437500001,"end":942.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":943.15784375,"end":945.1997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":945.7565937500001,"end":946.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":947.4609687500001,"end":950.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":950.59971875,"end":952.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":953.6203437500001,"end":956.2022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":956.8603437500001,"end":959.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":959.5603437500001,"end":960.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":961.1128437500001,"end":962.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":962.56409375,"end":965.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":966.49596875,"end":970.3603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":970.90034375,"end":974.4609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":974.1909687500001,"end":978.8484687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":975.92909375,"end":985.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":984.7209687500001,"end":984.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":984.9740937500001,"end":986.08784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.618,"end":20.426,"text":"好,請交通部陳部長還有民安局?民安局何局長部長,昨天我到高雄去參加華信"},{"start":24.276,"end":43.972,"text":"華信那個高雄到馬祖我們的啟航典禮那麼昨天陳金邁市長也親自前來我們馬祖的山長也趕到高雄去了我想我在致詞的時候首先先講這一個高雄到馬祖的航線應該是創下藍綠藍綠我們共同合作這個最佳的一個範例"},{"start":51.618,"end":73.764,"text":"那麼當場陳金脈市長也提到,官兵的部分,高雄的子弟他再補助每一張單程票價1500塊當然因為軍方那邊他可能有免票,這個他們已經在討論了,而且交代秘書長跟國防部密切的協調"},{"start":75.014,"end":86.623,"text":"那麼為了促進人流,他們高雄的觀光業者陳金派市長也允諾給予優惠的方案,甚至提出希望人流能夠加強"},{"start":87.947,"end":106.185,"text":"那麼當然馬祖的鄉親對這樣的一個守航非常的興奮,也期待但是覺得班次太少陳姨麥市長也表示,確實太少了一點那我支持的時候也講了,在商言商嘛,華航也好,華信也很好"},{"start":107.145,"end":133.871,"text":"它是一個股份有限公司嘛,是不是?但官方去介入,因為它還有私股、民股在裡面嘛對,華航是上市公司所以希望這個航線,把它促成以後,能夠還有第二班、第三班當然謝董過去的努力,我們非常感念他高董上來以後,高董原來是華信的董事長現在華信董事長派了沒有我不曉得"},{"start":135.682,"end":151.03,"text":"董事長就是高董還是高董見到?華信還沒我一直期待我有沒有機會去部長你看看有機會的話可以推薦一下好不好大財不要小用不會不會"},{"start":152.765,"end":167.536,"text":"非常感謝高雄市政府還有中華航空公司、華信航空公司還有民航局交通部部長在內非常的努力讓航線能夠在6月6日順利起航這個藍綠我們能夠這樣合作最好了"},{"start":175.01,"end":202.132,"text":"這個把這個航線順利起航,當然裡面還有立法委員那個誰啊,許智傑啦許智傑委員啦還有我們昆澤委員啦,大家都幫了很多的忙啦第二件事情就是這個有沒有機會,高董你在這邊,有沒有機會第二班因為你禮拜五飛過去,那回來啊,光是還要回來啊"},{"start":203.496,"end":213.933,"text":"眼鏡會再加一班好不好,你努力一下我們努力好不好我們飛航以後如果可以的話你再努力一下那我也接續上次總諮詢啊,對座院長總諮詢這個錢要獻贈我來出沒什麼道理啊"},{"start":220.601,"end":244.866,"text":"這個我們先試飛嘛好不好先飛嘛我們先飛啦 運量有起來其實縣政府就不用補貼如果運量有超過七成那是最好的大家都不用補貼可以讓華信可以繼續飛下去那如果超過七成或許委員剛剛所提到的兩班我們就有機會我們把運量先養起來我們非花蓮非台東你有要台東縣政府花蓮縣政府也七折嗎"},{"start":246.994,"end":274.288,"text":"這個來保七這個沒道理啦是不是報告委員當時是縣府自己提出來的對啊是我們自己提出來啊為了促其實現嘛所以我們很無奈陳金派市長講的這是社會責任啊我們把它做起來之後華信來努力然後我們也請一些旅行業者大家一起共同來努力把這個醞釀把它做起來行的便利交通的安全交通部你們責無旁貸了嘛"},{"start":275.151,"end":298.872,"text":"要縣政府去補貼你們很丟人耶七八千億的預算在那邊要縣政府去補貼這個小小的幾百萬這個說不過去了好不好我們一起加油一下好不好等飛機飛了以後再說高董你請回謝謝啦你休息一下嘛第二個就是馬祖大橋啊我在總諮詢的時候以前288億"},{"start":301.083,"end":324.152,"text":"從一百多億幾十億到兩百八十八億這是4C精算出來的咧4C精算出來的東西卓院長突然跟我提到說要三百八十幾億我嚇一跳我想部長也嚇一跳齁那麼英國的顧問公司他的數據是依據4C4C工程顧問公司來的那我說部長"},{"start":325.458,"end":351.592,"text":"能不能再找世襲啊再精算一次好不好你看國內的一些重大公共工程高鐵、桃園從高價改為地下化六百多億啊這個錢都給了當然目前國內的環境整個世界的環境是比較困難啦我們在財政上比較困難我也不急於意思說"},{"start":352.813,"end":376.931,"text":"我們今天來討論這個問題但是我們機場的改建機場的改建跟馬祖大橋我想是馬祖最重要的基礎建設而且影響深遠另外何局長下去再請你上來一下可以再上來沒問題北竿機場空難兩次"},{"start":382.128,"end":409.054,"text":"我弟弟全家無口利難我到現在還是非常的悲痛常常想念到我弟弟馬祖連一個標準的山西機場都沒有這還得了啊這個機場馬祖不是只是我們馬祖陪肝的攔肝的是我們全體國人的而且馬祖的情幣我們的巨肉寶蟲我們的藍眼淚已經是世界的景觀了"},{"start":410.208,"end":424.219,"text":"是不是各國的人,外國人也都來馬祖萊所以這個機場的興建勢在必行當然我也很感謝行政院已經合訂了第一期是兩百二十幾億還有第二期的航廈工程等等"},{"start":425.764,"end":454.634,"text":"我也希望他的開工能夠順利當然這裡面分兩階段今天港務公司沒有來我想何局長我們馬祖民眾還有一些聲音也是配套配套最大的聲音當然是來自航空站還有利隆航空他們怕為什麼錢多勢少離家近他們怕說這個機場一旦施工那麼這些人要移到南竿去"},{"start":456.035,"end":457.839,"text":"何記長你回答我一下,這些人應該都不會動吧"},{"start":461.015,"end":484.961,"text":"跟委員報告因為剛剛有提到分兩階段所以現在在做第一階段的細設那這個部分是港公司在做那在這個過程中我們也會看工程細設的狀況然後相關航空站其實在施工期間細設是不會動因為基本上都還要維持一年那施工期間的話那他可能會有做局部的調整那航空站還是要有人在那邊運作"},{"start":488.343,"end":513.565,"text":"消防人員都也在嘛基本上還是要配置那因為施工期間有施工車輛等等的相關人員也要飲食等等所以這部分航空站的人員跟相關利用或者是相關的商店等等我們會來再做一些協調跟溝通說明我想希望能夠學澳門機場新建的模式修建的模式邊飛邊做當然你在"},{"start":514.574,"end":535.598,"text":"危題的部分,沉箱的部分,不影響飛機安全的情況之下,你怎麼樣去把它區隔出來這個我想在十四、十五我們到馬祖去交通委員會考察的時候,我也希望召委能夠親自出席"},{"start":536.994,"end":555.339,"text":"那麼在考察的時候,順便跟我們鄉親提出來,如果夜間施工或是那邊施工的品質影響到我們地區居民的生活品質,或是有一些噪音等等影響到的,還有觀光。"},{"start":557.813,"end":574.559,"text":"因為機場在興建,公安課勢必會減少班次也減少起碼馬祖北竿地區的民眾飛來台北一般沒有問題至少我希望兩班、三班也可以對觀光的影響"},{"start":575.891,"end":599.725,"text":"那麼民航局可能也要做一些對噪音、空氣品質、還有觀光人數減少這些做一些配套我想在15號,我想到北竿去做一個說明會當然部長你先承諾我,你晚上不要離開你第二天早上才能走好不好?好早上你的幕僚人員跟我講說,部長下午有重要的會議"},{"start":600.726,"end":628.643,"text":"我說當天最重要的就是馬祖的交通考察所以你如果晚上下午就走的話這我覺得不好啦好不好你先承諾我我先來排行程第二天早上好不好我們準價報告稍微我們準價讓你因為交通部很忙我知道啦好不好好那麼何局長這邊請你做一些準備除了這個改建的期程"},{"start":630.214,"end":631.845,"text":"約略的,你跟港務公司講一下"},{"start":633.7,"end":660.145,"text":"那麼跑道的鋪面會影響 那沒辦法鋪面的時間要多長 我想第三行下你應該有經驗了嘛 對不對我覺得你初估應該可以估得出來啦 好不好我想跟民眾既然辦了說明會了嘛我們跟民眾啊 能夠解決他一些疑慮免得每天在那邊機場的事情這個機場的信念勢在必行"},{"start":661.225,"end":686.832,"text":"這飛安很重要馬祖到目前為止你看連山西的機場而不可得還在半導航的狀況會影響到我們飛安的安全所以這個北竿機場的信念非常重要那麼何機長我想你請回好不好另外現在科技非常發達了我在前兩個禮拜出國那麼經過我們中正機場"},{"start":691.012,"end":710.308,"text":"裡面人流非常多,慢慢的已經恢復了空氣品質的改善尤其重要我到一個廁所,機場公司董事長跟我講,那個廁所本來有惡臭啊後來他稍微做一些科技的處理,能夠把空氣品質提升既然我們這個第三航廈是目前"},{"start":712.504,"end":730.695,"text":"比較後面,我們新的一個機場,對裡面空氣品質的改善,有一些能夠利用科技的部分我提醒注意一下好不好好剛才傅坤祺總召提到台鐵高鐵票價雙漲高鐵沒有漲高鐵沒有"},{"start":736.018,"end":755.524,"text":"那現在你什麼時候不漲?現在這個時候漲,又碰到關稅的問題,外面的環境蠻不好的很多店有的打烊了30年沒有漲了,真的是很久我知道一定要漲的,這個不漲是講不過去的啦所以我想說有沒有機會動場,跟電費一樣"},{"start":759.554,"end":768.748,"text":"報告委員這個部分如果是就花東的部分我們會有優惠的方案讓花東的居民可以用比較便宜比較不受這個漲價影響的一個方案出來"},{"start":771.192,"end":793.671,"text":"不會有影響嗎?你們配到6月份也會出來吧?6月份會出來,那影響會盡量降低,不會說完全沒影響因為這個也是全國一致性的問題所以台鐵的票價已經30年沒有漲了,大家應該都能理解台鐵要漲沒有錯,你稍微服務的品質能夠跟高鐵一樣高鐵服務,我昨天去高雄回來,高鐵服務品質非常好"},{"start":794.62,"end":822.878,"text":"我們鄭董在長榮總市長他這個CEO這個經營非常的不錯啦當然我原來也聽說高董要去什麼台鐵什麼的台鐵真的要向高鐵學習怎麼樣轉型台鐵如果可以跟高鐵一樣那就太好了這很重要另外就是這個我們機場興建我又想到一些問題也就是公共工程你看我們的大邱橋"},{"start":824.315,"end":847.046,"text":"為什麼?那個海域風浪非常大施工非常不容易我們縣長王縣長他從前縣長留下來一百多億的工程目前已經執行了五十多億了執行一半了他希望這一百多億的工程能夠在他任內完成如期如質的完成"},{"start":848.206,"end":876.839,"text":"那目前大邱橋也陷入這個問題當然明後年應該會完成還有塘後橋塘後大橋我上次去年去交通委員會考察的時候他答應我今年三月份會完工但是目前已經跳票了我為什麼講這個呢缺工缺料缺工缺料還有我們那個秦碧的停車場到目前為止還沒有消息"},{"start":877.796,"end":898.921,"text":"我去考察三次,已經連續三四年了,希望趕快把它弄出來,好嗎?還有橋子的遊客,橋子的遊客中心,橋子到大丘頭端那邊有遊客中心,這個橋弄好以後,我想觀光客滿多的,遊客中心很重要"},{"start":899.981,"end":918.097,"text":"所以遊客中心到目前為止工程還停滯所以就是說缺工缺料交通部在這部分能夠協助我也當然執行過行政院公共工程委員會請他們多協助所以部長你答應我可不可以,有沒有問題?"},{"start":919.695,"end":942.029,"text":"盡量會協助,我們也希望能夠加速請密的停車場拜託好不好,交代公安署動作快一點還有彈後橋,大橋橋當然是營建署的我想其他的就等交通委員會考察的時候請部長也多做一些功課,對馬祖的問題尤其馬祖大橋,我昨天也打電話給部長現在因為錢的問題,其實也不多"},{"start":947.523,"end":969.701,"text":"部長是不是能夠請世襲公司能夠做一些再精算一次好不好再精算一次,因為我問過陳商啊標金門大學的王董,我先邀標嘛不一定是他,起碼三百億他可以做,他還有錢賺那天卓院長答覆我要三百八十幾億"},{"start":971.024,"end":983.884,"text":"有沒有算錯了我不知道當然我們都不是專家這個我去瞭解一下我去問一些比較專業的下一次我在質詢的時候我想請部長也回答我一些問題謝謝部長你辛苦了謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":362,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（10時15分）謝謝召委，是不是請部長？"],["主席：好，請交通部陳部長。"],["陳委員雪生：還有民航局何局長。"],["主席：民航局何局長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，昨天我到高雄去參加華信關於高雄到馬祖的啟航典禮，昨天陳其邁市長也親自前來，我們馬祖的三長也趕到高雄去了，我在致詞的時候首先先講了，這一個高雄到馬祖的航線，應該是創下我們藍綠共同合作的一個最佳範例，陳其邁市長當場也提到官兵的部分，高雄的子弟，他再補助每一張單人票價1,500塊，當然因為軍方那邊他可能有免票，這個他們已經在討論，而且交代秘書長跟國防部密切的協調。","為了促進人流，陳其邁市長也允諾給予高雄的觀光業者優惠方案，甚至提出希望能夠加強人流，當然馬祖的鄉親對這樣的一個首航非常的興奮也期待，但是覺得班次太少，陳其邁市長也表示確實太少了一點，我致詞的時候也講了，在商言商，華航也好，華信也好，它是一個股份有限公司，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：但有官方去介入，因為它還有私股、民股在裡面嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：對，華航是上市公司。"],["陳委員雪生：所以希望促成這個航線以後，能夠還有第二班、第三班，當然謝董過去的努力，我們非常感念他。高董上來以後，高董原來是華信的董事長，現在華信董事長派了沒有，我不曉得。"],["陳部長世凱：董事長就是高董。"],["陳委員雪生：什麼？還是高董？"],["陳部長世凱：華信還沒。"],["陳委員雪生：華信還沒有嘛？我一直期待我有沒有機會去？部長，你看看有機會的話可以推薦一下，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：大材不要小用。"],["陳委員雪生：不會，我們非常感謝高雄市政府還有中華航空公司、華信航空公司還有民航局、交通部部長任內非常的努力，讓這個航線能夠在6月6號順利啟航，我們藍綠能夠這樣合作最好了，讓這個航線順利啟航，當然裡面還有立法委員包括許智傑委員還有李昆澤委員，大家都幫了很多的忙。","第二件事情，高董，你在這邊，有沒有機會第二班？因為你禮拜五飛過去，那回來呢？觀光客還要回來啊！有機會再加一班，好不好？你努力一下。"],["高董事長星潢：我們努力。"],["陳委員雪生：好不好？我們飛航以後如果可以的話，你再努力一下。我也接續上次對卓院長的總質詢，這個錢要縣政府來出沒什麼道理啊！我們先試飛嘛，好不好？先飛嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：我們先飛啦！運量有起來，其實縣政府就不用補貼，如果運量有超過七成，那是最好的，大家都不用補貼，可以讓華信繼續飛下去，如果超過七成，或許委員剛剛所提到的兩班我們就有機會，我們把運量先養起來。"],["陳委員雪生：我們飛花蓮、飛臺東，你有要臺東縣政府、花蓮縣政府也七成嗎？這個保七沒道理啦，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，當時是縣府自己提出來的。"],["陳委員雪生：對啊！是他們自己提出來的。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["陳委員雪生：為了促其實現嘛！所以我們很無奈，就如陳其邁市長講的，這是社會責任……"],["陳部長世凱：我們把它做起來之後……"],["陳委員雪生：你不覺得這是社會責任嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：華信努力，然後我們也請一些旅行業者大家一起共同努力，把運量做起來。"],["陳委員雪生：行的便利、交通的安全，交通部責無旁貸嘛！要縣政府去補貼，你們很丟人耶！七、八千億的預算在那邊，要縣政府去補貼這個小小的幾百萬，這個說不過去啦！我們一起加油一下，好不好？等飛機飛了以後再說。"],["陳部長世凱：一起努力。"],["陳委員雪生：高董請回，謝謝，你休息一下。"],["高董事長星潢：謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：第二個就是馬祖大橋，我在總質詢的時候，以前288億，從一百多億、幾十億到288億，這是世曦精算出來的東西，卓院長突然跟我提到要三百八十幾億，我嚇一跳，我想部長也嚇一跳。英國顧問公司的數據是依據世曦工程顧問公司來的，我問部長，能不能我們再找世曦精算一次，好不好？你看國內的一些重大公共工程，像高鐵，桃園從高架改為地下化，六百多億啊！這個錢都給了，當然目前國內的環境、整個世界的環境是比較困難，我們在財政上比較困難，我也不急於一時說我們今天來討論這個問題，但是我們機場的改建跟馬祖大橋，我想是馬祖最重要的基礎建設，而且影響深遠。何局長下去了，可能還要再請他上來一下。"],["陳部長世凱：可以再上來，沒問題。"],["陳委員雪生：北竿機場空難兩次，我弟弟全家五口罹難，我到現在還是非常悲痛，常常想念到我弟弟。馬祖連一個標準的3C機場都沒有，這還得了啊！這一個機場不只是馬祖北竿的，也是南竿的，更是全體國人的，而且馬祖的芹壁，我們的聚落保存、我們的藍眼淚已經是世界的景觀了，各國的外國人也都來馬祖，所以這個機場的興建勢在必行，當然我也很感謝行政院已經核定了，第一期是兩百二十幾億，還有第二期的航廈工程等等，我也希望它的開工能夠順利。當然這裡面分兩階段，今天港務公司沒有來，我想問何局長，我們馬祖民眾還有一些聲音，也就是配套，最大的聲音當然是來自航空站及立榮航空，為什麼？錢多、事少、離家近，他們怕這個機場一旦施工，那麼這些人要移到南竿去。何局長，你回答我一下，這些人應該不會動吧？或是少量嘛？"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，因為剛剛委員有提到分兩階段，所以現在在做第一階段的細設，這個部分是港公司在做，在這個過程中，我們也會看工程細設的狀況，相關航空站其實在施工期間細設是不會動，因為基本上都還要維持營運……"],["陳委員雪生：是，兩年嘛！"],["何局長淑萍：對，施工期間可能會有做局部的調整，航空站還是要有人在那邊運作，當地其實……"],["陳委員雪生：消防人員也都在嘛！"],["何局長淑萍：對，基本上還是要配置，因為施工期間有施工車輛等等的，相關人員也要飲食，所以航空站的人員跟立榮，或者是相關的商店等等，我們會再做一些協調跟溝通說明。"],["陳委員雪生：我希望能夠學澳門機場的修建模式，即邊飛邊做，當然在圍堤的部分、城鄉的部分，在不影響飛機安全的情況之下，你們怎麼樣去把它區隔出來？這個我想在14、15號交通委員會到馬祖考察的時候，我也希望召委能夠親自出席。"],["主席：去、去、去。"],["陳委員雪生：在考察的時候，順便跟我們鄉親提出來，如果夜間施工或是施工品質影響到地區居民的生活品質，我想有一些噪音等等影響到的，還有觀光的部分，因為機場在興建，觀光客勢必會減少，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["陳委員雪生：班次也減少，起碼馬祖北竿地區的民眾飛來臺北，至少一般沒有問題，我希望兩班、三班也可以啦！至於對觀光的影響，民航局可能也要針對噪音、空氣品質及觀光人數減少做一些配套，我想在15號到北竿去做一個說明會，當然部長先承諾我，你晚上不要離開，第二天早上才能走，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：好，早上你的幕僚人員跟我講部長下午有重要的會議，我說當天最重要的就是馬祖的交通考察，所以你如果下午就走的話，我覺得不好啦！你先承諾我，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我現在來排行程。"],["陳委員雪生：第二天早上我們准假，報告召委，我們准假讓你……因為交通部很忙，我知道啦，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：何局長，請你做一些準備，除了改建的期程，你約略跟港務公司講一下，跑道的鋪面會影響，那沒辦法，鋪面的時間要多長？我想第三航廈你應該有經驗了，對不對？我覺得你應該可以粗估出來，好不好？既然辦了說明會，我們能夠解決民眾的一些疑慮，免得每天在處理機場的事情，這個機場的興建勢在必行，飛安很重要，馬祖到目前為止連3C的機場都不可得，還在半導航的狀況，會影響到飛安的安全，所以北竿機場的興建非常重要。何局長，你請回。","另外，現在科技非常發達，我在前兩個禮拜出國，經過中正機場，裡面人流非常多，慢慢已經恢復了，空氣品質的改善尤其重要，我到了一個廁所，機場公司董事長跟我講，那個廁所本來有惡臭，後來他稍微做了一些科技的處理……"],["陳部長世凱：現在有改善了。"],["陳委員雪生：能夠把空氣品質提升，既然第三航廈是目前比較新的一個機場，對於裡面空氣品質的改善，有一些能夠利用科技的部分，我提醒注意一下，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：剛才傅崐萁總召提到臺鐵、高鐵票價雙漲，那麼花……"],["陳部長世凱：高鐵沒有漲。"],["陳委員雪生：高鐵沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["陳委員雪生：什麼時候不漲，現在這個時候漲，又碰到關稅的問題，外面的環境蠻不好的耶！很多店有的都打烊了。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，三十年沒有漲了，真的是很……"],["陳委員雪生：我知道，一定要漲的，這個部長是講不過去的啦！所以我想說有沒有機會凍漲，跟電費一樣？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，關於這個部分，如果就花東的部分我們會有優惠的方案，讓花東的居民可以用比較便宜、比較不受漲價影響的一個方案。"],["陳委員雪生：不會有影響嗎？你們配套在6月份也會出來吧？"],["陳部長世凱：6月份會出來，影響會儘量降低，不會說完全沒影響，因為這個也是全國一致性的問題，所以臺鐵的票價已經三十年沒有漲了，大家應該都能理解。"],["陳委員雪生：臺鐵要漲沒有錯，但服務的品質要能夠跟高鐵一樣。"],["陳部長世凱：要提升。"],["陳委員雪生：我昨天從高雄回來，高鐵服務品質非常好，鄭董在長榮……董事長是CEO，經營得非常不錯。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：當然我原來也聽說高董要去臺鐵什麼的，臺鐵真的要向高鐵學習，怎麼樣轉型很重要。"],["陳部長世凱：臺鐵如果可以跟高鐵一樣，那就太好了。"],["陳委員雪生：這很重要。另外，提到機場興建，我就想到一些問題，也就是公共工程，你看我們的大坵橋，為什麼？因為海域的關係，風浪非常大，施工非常不容易，縣政府劉前縣長留下來一百多億的工程，王縣長目前已經執行了五十多億，執行一半了，他希望這一百多億的工程能夠在他任內如期如質的完成，目前大坵橋也陷入這個問題，當然明後年應該會完成。還有塘后大橋，去年交通委員會去考察的時候，他答應我今年3月份會完工，但是目前已經跳票了。我為什麼講這個呢？缺工、缺料，還有我們芹壁的停車場到目前為止還沒有消息，我去考察3次，已經連續三、四年了，希望趕快把它弄出來好不好？芹壁停車場，還有橋仔的遊客中心，橋仔到大坵頭端那邊有遊客中心，這個橋弄好以後，我想觀光客滿多的，遊客中心很重要，但這個遊客中心到目前為止，工程還是停滯的。所以就是缺工、缺料，交通部在這部分能夠協助……當然我也質詢過行政院公共工程委員會，請他們多協助。所以，部長你答應我可不可以？有沒有問題？"],["陳部長世凱：儘量會協助，我們也希望能夠加速……"],["陳委員雪生：芹壁的停車場，拜託，好不好？交代觀光署動作快一點。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們交代。"],["陳委員雪生：還有塘后橋，大坵橋當然是營建署的，我想其他的就等交通委員會考察的時候，請部長也多做一些功課。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：對馬祖的問題，尤其馬祖大橋，我昨天也打電話給部長。現在因為錢的問題，其實也不多，部長是不是能夠請世曦公司再精算一次，好不好？再精算一次！因為我問過承商，標金門大橋的王董，我先邀標嘛，不一定是他，但起碼300億他可以做，他還有錢賺。那天卓院長答復我要三百八十幾億，有沒有算錯了？我不知道！當然我們都不是專家……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個我去了解一下。"],["陳委員雪生：回去了解一下。"],["陳部長世凱：我去問一些比較專業的單位。"],["陳委員雪生：下一次我再質詢的時候，我想請部長也回答我一些問題，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝部長，你辛苦了，謝謝召委，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生委員的質詢。","特別跟各位報告、跟委員會報告：廖先翔委員質詢完畢，我們就休息10分鐘；何欣純委員質詢完畢，我們就處理臨時動議。","現在請何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160841","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160841","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369cbcde870071551eb385a4fd0f0fffa49d80416c5864e049c27a1751fd121cdf95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"09:59:41 - 10:15:26","影片長度":"00:15:45","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T09:59:41+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:15:26+08:00","duration":945,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.114093750000002,"end":10.290968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.763468750000001,"end":12.332843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.293468750000002,"end":26.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.86221875,"end":27.300968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.300968750000003,"end":29.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.76471875,"end":33.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.941593750000003,"end":31.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.15659375,"end":33.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.22409375,"end":33.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.696593750000005,"end":35.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.37971875,"end":44.142218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.564093750000005,"end":48.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.52971875,"end":51.938468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.49534375,"end":53.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.76096875,"end":56.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.52846875,"end":63.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.97034375000001,"end":66.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.26971875000001,"end":65.72534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.01159375,"end":76.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.96409375,"end":93.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.97409375000001,"end":95.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.23534375000001,"end":98.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.96909375,"end":109.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.22221875000001,"end":99.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.60471875,"end":109.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.88721875,"end":110.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.20784375000001,"end":110.22471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.22471875000001,"end":110.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.25846875,"end":110.37659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.37659375000001,"end":113.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.41034375000001,"end":110.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.27471875,"end":116.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.24471875,"end":120.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.65346875,"end":120.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.59846875000001,"end":123.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.35346875,"end":124.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.00721875,"end":128.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.44534375,"end":130.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.72784375,"end":137.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.43971875,"end":139.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.59534375,"end":143.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.77221875,"end":144.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.21096875,"end":145.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.26971875,"end":147.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.83909375000002,"end":149.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.26909375,"end":150.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.04534375,"end":151.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.17596875,"end":156.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.42846875,"end":159.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.32659375,"end":160.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.25471875000002,"end":162.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.11096875,"end":167.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.93721875,"end":172.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.93221875,"end":173.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.67471875,"end":174.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.41721875000002,"end":177.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.48409375,"end":179.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.96909375,"end":181.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.90096875,"end":184.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.98096875000002,"end":186.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.70221875000001,"end":189.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.62159375000002,"end":191.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.98409375,"end":193.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.97534375,"end":198.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.45971875,"end":202.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.46346875,"end":203.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.76721875,"end":213.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.82034375,"end":217.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.36784375000002,"end":222.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.89909375000002,"end":225.73409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.72971875000002,"end":230.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.02846875,"end":233.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.20534375000003,"end":234.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.31909375,"end":235.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.93909375,"end":238.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.33971875,"end":239.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.24659375000002,"end":243.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.39784375000002,"end":246.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.08096875,"end":249.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.47284375,"end":253.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.37096875,"end":255.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.41721875000002,"end":257.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.01159375000003,"end":259.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.45846875,"end":261.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.47534375000004,"end":280.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.72846875,"end":262.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.90034375,"end":270.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.00909375000003,"end":276.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.35846875000004,"end":296.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.59346875,"end":288.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.47096875,"end":290.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.27159375,"end":297.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.57096875,"end":304.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.72159375,"end":306.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.24034375,"end":308.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.38346875,"end":311.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.13409375000003,"end":313.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.20971875000004,"end":315.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.44159375000004,"end":316.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.60596875000005,"end":321.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.09471875,"end":321.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.36471875,"end":321.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.38159375000004,"end":321.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.97221875,"end":322.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.64721875000004,"end":332.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.52784375000005,"end":332.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.43471875,"end":332.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.16034375000004,"end":334.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.76346875,"end":335.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.75471875,"end":338.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.45909375,"end":340.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.95659375,"end":341.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.53034375000004,"end":343.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.07846875,"end":346.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.37346875000003,"end":346.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.06534375,"end":349.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.44034375,"end":351.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.21659375,"end":361.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.21596875,"end":355.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.40471875000003,"end":363.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.09221875000003,"end":367.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.09159375,"end":369.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.67784375,"end":373.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.44096875,"end":376.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.63034375,"end":377.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.23346875000004,"end":379.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.61284375,"end":381.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.21596875,"end":383.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.59534375000004,"end":385.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.65846875,"end":388.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.82659375000003,"end":391.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.66159375,"end":394.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.78784375000004,"end":396.23909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.06159375000004,"end":399.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.30596875000003,"end":403.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.33909375,"end":405.48659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.56659375000004,"end":408.05159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.79409375,"end":410.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.12284375,"end":414.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.84784375000004,"end":419.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.50971875000005,"end":423.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.08284375000005,"end":427.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.90909375,"end":429.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.41096875000005,"end":430.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.08596875,"end":432.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.58346875,"end":434.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.72221875,"end":439.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.53596875000005,"end":441.76784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.35846875000004,"end":444.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.85596875000005,"end":445.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.00346875,"end":449.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.12096875000003,"end":454.39034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.97659375,"end":457.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.20409375,"end":460.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.76909375,"end":461.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.28784375000004,"end":465.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.84846875000005,"end":467.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.44721875000005,"end":468.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.52721875000003,"end":470.87721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.87721875000005,"end":470.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.75034375,"end":472.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.80096875000004,"end":473.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.04971875,"end":489.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.82346875,"end":491.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.76409375000003,"end":496.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.86471875,"end":499.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.41284375000004,"end":501.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.58534375000005,"end":505.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.87596875,"end":506.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.69846875,"end":508.81221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.81221875000006,"end":508.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.90909375,"end":509.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.92596875000004,"end":510.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.92159375000006,"end":517.7222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.6840937500001,"end":519.0890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.78096875,"end":520.9453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":521.73846875,"end":522.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":524.13471875,"end":529.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.02846875,"end":532.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.99409375,"end":533.3315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.9897187500001,"end":539.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.4953437500001,"end":548.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.8984687500001,"end":551.8772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.21471875,"end":553.8515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.2647187499999,"end":558.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.69471875,"end":559.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.79159375,"end":560.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.4328437500001,"end":562.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.9765937500001,"end":564.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.47846875,"end":566.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.80721875,"end":569.0559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.78159375,"end":570.8953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.4140937500001,"end":574.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.16471875,"end":575.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.1772187500001,"end":577.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.99971875,"end":579.8390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.1597187500001,"end":581.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.1003437500001,"end":583.9397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.0703437500001,"end":586.7747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.70284375,"end":590.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.65596875,"end":593.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.07284375,"end":598.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.0047187499999,"end":607.7334687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.9697187500001,"end":609.2859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.0534687500001,"end":612.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":614.11221875,"end":614.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.97284375,"end":615.2765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.4409687500001,"end":618.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.60096875,"end":618.8203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.9384687500001,"end":621.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.22909375,"end":623.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.20346875,"end":624.9797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.67159375,"end":626.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.0047187499999,"end":628.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.72596875,"end":630.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.57784375,"end":633.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.95721875,"end":637.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.7665937500001,"end":639.3740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":639.3740937499999,"end":639.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.1840937500001,"end":640.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.97721875,"end":650.5959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.56659375,"end":651.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":651.79409375,"end":653.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.59971875,"end":664.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":665.1928437500001,"end":668.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.0278437500001,"end":671.2509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.2509687500001,"end":671.5209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":672.02721875,"end":674.2547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.59221875,"end":677.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":678.50721875,"end":685.9153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.23284375,"end":680.2959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.44721875,"end":684.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":689.5772187500002,"end":690.3872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":690.57284375,"end":691.9228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":694.8759687500001,"end":695.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.49596875,"end":697.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.75721875,"end":699.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.8203437500001,"end":700.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":701.99721875,"end":703.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.5834687500001,"end":703.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.97159375,"end":704.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":704.08971875,"end":705.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":705.0347187500001,"end":705.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":705.1528437500001,"end":705.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":705.2878437500001,"end":706.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":708.5278437500001,"end":709.0678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":710.2153437500001,"end":712.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":712.67909375,"end":715.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":717.5053437500001,"end":722.0109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":723.6984687500001,"end":725.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.19596875,"end":727.5122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":728.55846875,"end":731.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":731.7647187500002,"end":733.1147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":734.44784375,"end":737.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":738.16034375,"end":738.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":738.95346875,"end":740.7084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.80534375,"end":743.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":743.9653437500001,"end":748.1672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.55971875,"end":749.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":750.51284375,"end":750.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":750.91784375,"end":750.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.5547187500001,"end":754.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":755.11971875,"end":761.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":756.3684687500001,"end":757.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":757.9209687500002,"end":759.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":759.0347187500001,"end":760.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":760.1484687500001,"end":760.1653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":763.0678437500001,"end":764.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":764.97471875,"end":765.0590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":765.4978437500001,"end":765.5147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":765.5147187500002,"end":768.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":770.50971875,"end":772.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":772.5515937499999,"end":775.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":775.0322187500001,"end":778.8797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":776.78721875,"end":776.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":779.63909375,"end":780.5165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":781.03971875,"end":782.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":781.1240937500002,"end":781.6303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":785.0559687500001,"end":785.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":785.07284375,"end":785.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":785.51159375,"end":785.6297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":785.6297187499999,"end":785.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":785.66346875,"end":785.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":785.81534375,"end":786.5915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":787.1315937500001,"end":787.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":788.51534375,"end":789.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":790.18596875,"end":791.2322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":791.99159375,"end":808.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":799.7709687500001,"end":802.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":802.2009687500001,"end":802.7240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":802.9097187500001,"end":802.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":803.8884687500001,"end":804.2765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":808.61346875,"end":810.7903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":811.51596875,"end":814.2665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":814.90784375,"end":816.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":816.8147187500001,"end":818.6203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":819.0590937500001,"end":825.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":827.46284375,"end":827.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":828.44159375,"end":829.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":830.7534687500001,"end":831.2765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":831.6984687500001,"end":835.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":836.82846875,"end":837.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":839.35971875,"end":840.2709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":842.02596875,"end":843.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":843.61221875,"end":845.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":847.10534375,"end":847.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.7422187500001,"end":849.5690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":850.32846875,"end":850.8515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":851.72909375,"end":853.1128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":853.87221875,"end":858.7490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":860.5547187500001,"end":863.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":863.96346875,"end":866.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":867.1359687500001,"end":871.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":872.2490937500002,"end":874.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":874.29096875,"end":875.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":877.75034375,"end":878.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":879.4040937500001,"end":880.2309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":881.12534375,"end":881.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":884.0109687500001,"end":885.3103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":885.79971875,"end":888.0947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":889.7990937500001,"end":892.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":893.1572187500001,"end":894.4734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":895.5703437500001,"end":896.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":898.7934687500001,"end":900.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":902.7422187500001,"end":904.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":906.64034375,"end":908.2097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":908.7834687500001,"end":911.7534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":912.90096875,"end":913.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":913.9640937500001,"end":915.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":916.69784375,"end":918.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":920.3259687500001,"end":920.7309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":921.6928437500001,"end":922.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":923.48159375,"end":924.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":925.3715937500001,"end":927.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":927.9197187500001,"end":928.0715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":928.0715937500001,"end":931.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":931.8178437500001,"end":933.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":933.9947187500002,"end":938.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":937.0322187500001,"end":938.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":938.3484687500002,"end":938.6353437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":938.66909375,"end":939.5634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":940.5422187500001,"end":945.11534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.079,"end":11.703,"text":"謝謝主席 請部長請交通部陳部長"},{"start":21.523,"end":46.296,"text":"部長早我想今天我們的詢答都是關心我們整體交通的發展是因為主席給的時間很短所以我們能夠盡快好不好請問及答好不好好本席提醒一下2020蔡英文總統競選連任的時候推出的交通政策白皮書很清楚接駐西高鐵東快鐵"},{"start":48.595,"end":76.186,"text":"部長知道這個事嗎 是 我知道要不要履行正在做西高鐵東快鐵東快鐵的時速要提升到多少車速 部長了解吧車速這個我沒有把它記起來局長是不是可以回答 到多少時速我們是透過提升路線標準來提高平均速度最高速度並沒有提升 一樣是130"},{"start":77.848,"end":93.197,"text":"你可以回去翻一下過去幾次2020年本席跟歷任的交通部長的詢答或是歷任的行政院長的詢答你們可以去查清楚交通部所提出來是時速可以到160公里160公里"},{"start":96.511,"end":120.192,"text":"如果你們不知道的話可以回去看一下歷次的詢問報告委員 剛剛局長有說就是後來有經過研究 確實當時有這麼說但是經過研究之後認為不可行160 安全大概無法達到現在的交通技術是在逐步的往上提升當時對人民的承諾是160不能執政越久 這個承諾越來越低"},{"start":121.653,"end":149.408,"text":"我想交通的技術只有日新月異沒有在跟人民宣示你們是越做越差我想160是過去很清楚的一個政策說明你們必須要間接旅行的來旅行當時也提到當時速到160的時候環島是6小時全國共同的生活圈"},{"start":151.198,"end":165.661,"text":"所以這是對全國國人來講是非常雀躍的一件事情當時我們對這個政策也非常的支持那部長從2017年這個花東鐵路雙軌電氣化從開始的這個可行研究410億到後來核定456億大概都400多億的範疇"},{"start":178.884,"end":187.287,"text":"裡面啦 前瞻預算編列了多少錢269269億那到現在為止 前瞻計畫已經積極扶持 行快完畢了前瞻計畫裡面 總共華東雙軌電信化 總共編列了多少錢實際編列了多少錢"},{"start":199.482,"end":203.504,"text":"643643 前瞻計畫裡面對花東雙軌電氣化實際實際編列了多少 實編63.53億所以當時的8000多億的前瞻計畫民進黨政府宣示啊在花東雙軌的部分269億"},{"start":226.789,"end":253.337,"text":"在整個8000多億的前瞻裡面269億用在花蓮台東所以所以當時這個占比就讓前瞻計畫和其他給花東地區的預算就相對的被排擠結果現在前瞻計畫已經差不多8000多億差不多快要結束了"},{"start":254.795,"end":255.759,"text":"結果269億剩下62億為什麼"},{"start":261.819,"end":286.192,"text":"報告委員 當時是因為他編列的時程比較後面所以其他的預算跟其他的計畫都已經在先行了那前瞻應該這個預算要保留啊那是核定的時間的問題 那但是跟委員報告後來我們還是用公務預算 那這個前瞻的預算為什麼沒有保留呢我們用一般的公務預算一樣可以支應同樣的一個計畫當然用一般的公務預算可以做但是既然公務預算要做 為什麼要匡列前瞻呢"},{"start":287.032,"end":309.48,"text":"所以你們現在自漏馬腳 當時的269億因為高舉的269億前瞻的大旗所以花蓮台東地區在使用這8000多億前瞻的部分就被相對的排擠了到今天為止真相揭露出來 269億 200多億不見了"},{"start":312.179,"end":332.031,"text":"那還是回到公務預算那當時前瞻劃給花蓮台東人269億那200億跑哪裡去了報告委員那個部分本來就沒有辦法去保留預算但是我們一樣是用公務預算對花東的居民我們一樣是這麼重視還有最後前瞻的餘額如果要用的話用在花蓮台東"},{"start":341.598,"end":367.243,"text":"不然的話你們整體八千多億的前瞻最後用在花蓮台東是多少你們很難跟人民來交代很難對人民交代如果你沒有確實的來履行這樣的一個責任我們很難對於最後一期的前瞻來表示贊同"},{"start":368.271,"end":396.051,"text":"本席在隆重的讓部長能夠了解報告委員 這個我們來爭取對於啊當時提速到160公里最主要的原因最主要的原因就是因為啊花東雙軌電氣化提速到160成為東快鐵就是因為花蓮到吉安有七個危險平交道這七個危險平交道"},{"start":398.1,"end":427.083,"text":"必須納入立體化才能夠把整個曲線的速度加快這是當時不管是部長院長再三再三的聲明也支持而且由交通部概括承受因為它不是城市的縫合不是為了地方的繁榮發展而是要履行環島的六小時共同生活圈"},{"start":431.134,"end":454.22,"text":"一直到去年本席都支持花中雙軌從2017年的410億到2024年因為要把立體化花蓮到吉安的7個危險品交道所以提升到955億交通部我們都支持"},{"start":456.001,"end":470.555,"text":"但是怎麼會在你任內又把它修正成691億然後把花蓮吉安七個危險評價到立體化全數排除部長你要做歷史的罪人嗎"},{"start":473.285,"end":500.935,"text":"報告委員 這個審查的過程有它的專業性那我們要考量到一致性跟公平性所以呢 雙軌電氣化我們就把它拿來做雙軌電氣化但是如果是高價化的部分我們另外可以做高價化的來做其他的計畫部長一件衣服要做兩次嘛 同一件衣服要做兩次你講的是完全不可行的事情嘛表示你完全沒有準備嘛"},{"start":502.622,"end":520.694,"text":"你把政策改成這樣,你做好了準備嗎?同一個路廊,你要做兩次嗎?報告員,如果現在我們把高價化的計畫趕快提出來,我們到時候會一次試做,不會分兩次。好,那你什麼時候要提出來?"},{"start":524.258,"end":547.508,"text":"花蓮縣政府如果趕快提出來我們就趕快把他計畫趕快來審查這怎麼跟花蓮縣政府又扯上關係了交通部已經概括承受啦高加化的事情是地方政府提出當然當時已經是納入了這個是中央改善危險道路而且符合東快鐵整體曲線的速度包括費用都是由中央概括承受"},{"start":556.311,"end":582.999,"text":"有幾位部長宣示過你知道嗎這我不曉得本席請你回去google一下林佳龍部長王國才部長蘇貞昌院長陳建仁院長在院會的詢答都表示過本席再提醒你一下這些幕僚不曉得跟你講什麼你要回去看看過去的部長跟院長的詢答"},{"start":585.194,"end":612.624,"text":"還有對人民的承諾是什麼這不同於宜蘭跟嘉義他們是做地方繁榮的城市縫合而東快點是中央的政策並不是來提升地方的繁榮而是環島共同生活圈是蔡總統民進黨政府的交通白皮書部長了解了嗎"},{"start":616.888,"end":637.337,"text":"這題本席還會再請教你希望幕僚給你正確的訊息也希望你回去看一下那對於啊這個行政院院長所提出啊要把這個票價這個花東居民的票價要優惠的方式"},{"start":638.817,"end":663.928,"text":"本席請問你什麼時候可以提出來報告委員我們希望因為票價的調漲是在6月23我們希望在6月23也可以同步我們希望我們現在朝這個方向你什麼時候要提出來這個政策讓我們能夠了解報告委員花東居民的優惠這是確定的政策一定會做但是確定的方案跟內容目前台鐵正在研議"},{"start":665.273,"end":685.606,"text":"什麼時候可以演繹出來我們希望6月23可以跟票價的整體同步來進行本席講得很清楚吧你不要一直老是講6月23同步6月23之前我們總要討論過吧是啊我會聽你們是關門自己做事情嗎我會請他們提早提出來提早什麼時候可以提出來有這麼困難嗎我們一個月一個月的時間來提出"},{"start":694.912,"end":721.425,"text":"一個月今天是今天30號到5月305月30以前好不好好 5月30以前另外啊對於怎麼優惠是一件事情怎麼把觀光客吸引進來是一件事情對於整個你們這次所訂定的平均的票價"},{"start":723.752,"end":749.393,"text":"全國平均是26調漲26%但卻對花蓮台東地區調漲是32本身認為這個要先趨於一致性要先趨於一致性全國應該是一致性報告委員他有遞遠遞減因為那個運具的競爭但是現在平均算出來就是這樣子"},{"start":752.585,"end":778.702,"text":"平均算出來就是這樣子吧所以你們現在的政策本其實希望你現在的政策要進行調整嘛這不是懲罰偏遠地區的人民嗎也不會 其實台北到台中的漲幅只有19%台北到台中19%台東19%所以越遠 越偏遠其實是越遠到花蓮花蓮比較近"},{"start":779.693,"end":790.966,"text":"花蓮比較近所以到花蓮是多少離台北就32沒有錯32好到花蓮32那請教一下"},{"start":792.065,"end":810.021,"text":"你們為什麼可以把它認為台北到花蓮可以到32%包委員這是以距離來算以距離來算西部從台北可能到彰化你也32%台北到台中的漲幅也是差不多那請問一下台北到台中的交通所有的幹線"},{"start":811.562,"end":839.998,"text":"包括高鐵包括高速公路密密麻麻高速公路快速道路有多少條報告委員所以花東有優惠方案我們正在研擬本席現在告訴你喔在去年10月就已經在本委員會已經做了決議在整體花東道路沒有改善完成之前不可以做不可以做"},{"start":842.039,"end":871.007,"text":"票價的調漲因為那是唯一對外公共運具就只有台鐵這已經做成了決議你們對立法院的決議完全視若無睹嗎所以花東會有優惠方案本席認為你在優惠方案之前應該先要想清楚整體的交通要如何解決如何改善"},{"start":872.521,"end":900.642,"text":"這個才是交通部該做的當務之急啊所以啊本席在這裡啊希望啊部長能夠體恤啊零四零三大地震到現在現在花蓮假日的住房大概四成五成平日大概兩成所有的產業愛好遍野"},{"start":902.776,"end":920.41,"text":"旅輸業一家一家的關門國家整體的觀光去年逆差是900萬人次出入國逆差消費是7000億元我們記錄的是東南亞最後一名部長"},{"start":921.744,"end":943.805,"text":"今年可不可以把這個成績改善報告委員今年一定會比去年更成長我們會努力成長的幅度跟其他國家成長的幅度一樣可以嗎要看比哪個國家比大多數的國家要成長東南亞大多數的國家要成長可以嗎我們盡量來努力你的成績我們很快就看到了好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":254,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（9時59分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長早。今天我們的詢答都是關心整體交通發展。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["傅委員崐萁：因為主席給的時間很短，所以我們就儘快，即問即答，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席提醒一下，2020年蔡英文總統競選連任時推出的交通政策白皮書，很清楚地揭櫫「西高鐵、東快鐵」，部長知道這個事情嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是，我知道。"],["傅委員崐萁：好。要不要履行？"],["陳部長世凱：正在做。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，正在做。「西高鐵、東快鐵」，東快鐵的車速要提升到多少，部長瞭解嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：車速我沒有把它記起來。局長是不是可以回答？"],["傅委員崐萁：到多少？"],["主席：請楊局長。"],["楊局長正君：報告委員，我們是透過提升路線標準來提高平均速度，最高速度並沒有提升，一樣是130。"],["傅委員崐萁：你可以回去翻一下過去幾次，包括2020年本席跟歷任交通部長的詢答，或是跟歷任行政院長的詢答，你可以去查清楚。交通部所提出來的是時速可以到160公里，如果你們不知道的話，可以回去看一下歷次的詢答。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，剛剛局長有說，後來有經過研究。確實當時有這麼說，但是經過研究之後認為不可行，160公里，安全大概無法達到。"],["傅委員崐萁：現在的交通技術是在逐步往上提升，當時對人民的承諾是160公里，不能執政越久，這個承諾卻越來越低。交通技術只有日新月異，沒有在跟人民宣示你們是越做越差的！160公里是過去很清楚的政策說明，你們必須劍及履及地來履行。","當時也提到，當時速到160公里的時候，環島是6小時，全國是共同的生活圈，所以這對全體國人來講是非常令人雀躍的一件事情，當時我們對這項政策也非常支持。","部長，花東鐵路雙軌電氣化從2017年開始的可行性研究410億，到後來核定456億，大概都是四百多億的範疇，其中前瞻預算編列了多少錢？"],["陳部長世凱：269。"],["傅委員崐萁：269億？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["傅委員崐萁：到現在為止，前瞻計畫幾乎快要執行完畢了，在前瞻計畫裡面，花東鐵路雙軌電氣化總共編了多少錢？實際編列多少錢？"],["陳部長世凱：63。"],["傅委員崐萁：前瞻計畫裡面對花東鐵路雙軌電氣化實際編列了多少錢？"],["陳部長世凱：實編63.53億。"],["傅委員崐萁：當時八千多億的前瞻計畫，民進黨政府宣示花東鐵路雙軌電氣化的部分是269億，在整個八千多億的前瞻預算裡面，有269億用在花蓮、臺東，所以當時這個占比就讓前瞻計畫其他給花東地區的預算相對地被排擠了，現在前瞻計畫八千多億已經差不多快要結束了，結果269億剩下62億！為什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，當時是因為它編列的時程比較後面，其他的預算跟其他的計畫都已經先行了，所以這個預算當然比較少。"],["傅委員崐萁：前瞻計畫的這個預算應該要保留啊！"],["陳部長世凱：這是核定時間的問題。但是跟委員報告，後來我們還是用公務預算……"],["傅委員崐萁：那這個前瞻的預算為什麼沒有保留呢？"],["陳部長世凱：我們用一般的公務預算一樣可以支應同樣的一個計畫。"],["傅委員崐萁：用一般的公務預算當然可以做，但既然公務預算要做，為什麼要匡列前瞻呢？所以你們現在自動把它……"],["陳部長世凱：兩邊加起來會更多，不是嗎？"],["傅委員崐萁：當時因為高舉269億前瞻的大旗，所以花蓮、臺東地區在使用前瞻這八千多億的部分就被相對地排擠了，今天真相被揭露出來，269億裡面有兩百多億不見了，還是回到公務預算，當時前瞻劃給花蓮、臺東人的269億裡面的200億跑到哪裡去了？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，那個部分本來就沒有辦法保留預算，但我們一樣是用公務預算，對花東的居民，我們一樣是這麼重視，該有的建設一樣都會做。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席現在提醒你，還有最後前瞻的餘額，如果要用的話，要用在花蓮、臺東，不然的話，你們整體八千多億的前瞻最後用在花蓮、臺東是多少？你們很難跟人民交代！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您的提醒我們來爭取，好不好？如果還有的話，我們來爭取。"],["傅委員崐萁：很難對人民交代！如果你沒有確實地來履行這樣的責任，我們很難對最後一期的前瞻預算表示贊同。本席現在要鄭重地讓部長瞭解！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個我們來爭取。"],["傅委員崐萁：當時說要提速到160公里，最主要的原因就是要花東鐵路透過雙軌電氣化成為東快鐵，因為花蓮到吉安有7個危險平交道，這7個危險平交道必須立體化，才能夠把整個曲線的速度加快，這是當時不管部長或院長都再三聲明和支持的，而且由交通部概括承受，因為它不是城市的縫合，不是為了地方的繁榮發展，而是要履行6小時內環島的生活圈。部長，一直到去年，本席都支持花東鐵路雙軌化從2017年的410億，到2024年因為要把花蓮到吉安的7個危險平交道立體化，所以交通部提升到955億，我們都支持，但是怎麼會在你任內又把它修正成690億，然後把花蓮到吉安7個危險平交道的立體化全數排除？部長，你要做歷史的罪人嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個審查的過程有它的專業性，我們也要考量一致性跟公平性，所以雙軌電氣化的部分我們就把它拿來做雙軌電氣化，但如果是高架化的部分，我們另外可以來做其他高架化的計畫。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，你同一件衣服要做兩次嗎？你講的是完全不可行的事情，表示你完全沒有準備嘛！你把政策改成這樣，有做好準備嗎？同一個路廊，你要做兩次嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，如果現在趕快把高架化的計畫提出來，我們到時候會一次施作，不會分兩次。"],["傅委員崐萁：那你什麼時候要提出來？"],["陳部長世凱：花蓮縣政府如果趕快把計畫提出來，我們就趕快進行審查。"],["傅委員崐萁：這怎麼又跟花蓮縣政府扯上關係了？交通部已經概括承受了啊！"],["陳部長世凱：高架化的事情是地方政府提出，當然，做是交通部要做。"],["傅委員崐萁：當時已經納入了，這是中央改善危險道路，而且符合東快鐵整體曲線的速度，包括費用都是由中央概括承受。有幾位部長宣誓過，你知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這我不曉得。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席請你回去google一下。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["傅委員崐萁：包括林佳龍部長、王國材部長、蘇貞昌院長、陳建仁院長，他們在院會答詢都表示過！本席再提醒你一下，這些幕僚不曉得在跟你講什麼，你要回去看看過去的部長跟院長的答詢還有對人民的承諾是什麼！這不同於宜蘭跟嘉義，他們是做地方繁榮的城市縫合，而東快鐵是中央的政策，並不是來提升地方的繁榮，而是環島共同生活圈，是蔡總統、民進黨政府的交通白皮書。部長了解了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：了解。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，這一題本席還會再請教你。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["傅委員崐萁：希望幕僚給你正確的訊息，也希望你回去看一下。對於行政院院長所提出，要讓花東居民的票價有優惠的方式，本席請問你什麼時候可以提出來？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，因為票價的調漲是在6月23日，我們希望在6月23日也可以同步，我們希望如此，我們現在朝這個方向……"],["傅委員崐萁：你什麼時候要提出這個政策嘛？要讓我們能夠了解嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，花東居民的優惠這是確定的政策，一定會做，但是確定的方案跟內容，目前臺鐵正在研議。"],["傅委員崐萁：什麼時候可以研議出來？"],["陳部長世凱：我們希望6月23日可以跟票價整體同步來進行。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席講得很清楚嘛！你不要老是講6月23日同步，6月23日之前我們總要討論過吧？"],["陳部長世凱：是啊，我會請他們……"],["傅委員崐萁：你們是關門自己做事情嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我會請他們提早提出來。"],["傅委員崐萁：提早什麼時候可以提出來？有這麼困難嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們一個月的時間來提出。"],["傅委員崐萁：一個月？今天是30號，要到5月30日，5月30日以前好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，5月30日以前。"],["傅委員崐萁：另外，怎麼優惠是一件事情，怎麼把觀光客吸引進來是一件事情。對於整個你們這次所訂定的平均票價，全國平均是調漲26%，但卻對花蓮、臺東地區調漲32%，本席認為這個要先趨於一致性，全國應該是一致性。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，它有遞遠遞減，因為運具的競爭關係……"],["傅委員崐萁：但是現在平均算出來就是這樣子嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["傅委員崐萁：平均算出來就是這樣子嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：不會，報告委員，所以臺北到臺東相對漲的比較少……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以你們現在的政策，本席希望你現在的政策要進行調整嘛！這不是懲罰偏遠地區的人民嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：也不會，其實臺北到臺東的漲幅只有19%。"],["傅委員崐萁：臺北到臺中19%？"],["陳部長世凱：臺東。"],["傅委員崐萁：臺東19%？"],["陳部長世凱：對，所以越偏遠其實是……"],["傅委員崐萁：那到花蓮……"],["陳部長世凱：花蓮比較近。"],["傅委員崐萁：花蓮比較近？所以到花蓮是多少？"],["陳部長世凱：離臺北32%，沒有錯。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，到花蓮32%，請教一下，你們為什麼認為臺北到花蓮可以到32%？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這是以距離來算。"],["傅委員崐萁：以距離來算？好，西部……"],["陳部長世凱：如果是臺北到臺中……"],["傅委員崐萁：從臺北可能到彰化，你也32%？"],["陳部長世凱：如果是臺北到臺中的漲幅也是差不多，到彰化也差不多。"],["傅委員崐萁：那請問一下臺北到臺中的交通，所有的幹線包括高鐵、包括高速公路，密密麻麻的高速公路、快速道路有多少條？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，所以花東有優惠方案，我們正在研擬。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席現在告訴你，去年10月在本委員會裡面就已經做了決議，在整體花東道路沒有完成改善之前，不可以做票價的調漲，因為那是唯一對外的公共運具，就只有臺鐵，這是已經做成的決議，你們對立法院的決議完全視若無睹。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，所以花東會有優惠方案。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席認為你在優惠方案之前，應該要先想清楚整體的交通要如何解決、如何改善，這個才是交通部當務之急應該做的。所以本席在這裡希望部長能夠體恤，0403大地震到現在，現在花蓮假日的住房率大概四成、五成，平日大概兩成，所有的產業哀鴻遍野，旅宿業一家一家的關門，國家整體的觀光去年出入境人次逆差是900萬人次，逆差消費是7,000億元，我們是東南亞最後一名，部長，今年可不可以改善這個成績？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，今年一定會比去年更成長，我們會努力……"],["傅委員崐萁：成長的幅度跟其他國家一樣，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：要看跟哪個國家比。"],["傅委員崐萁：比大多數東南亞的國家更成長，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們儘量來努力。"],["傅委員崐萁：你的成績單我們很快就看到了，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝傅崐萁委員。","現在請陳雪生委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160840","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160840","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369d45f37f2054004bd385a4fd0f0fffa49d80416c5864e049cb4272b109c97fcf25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"14:14:59 - 14:21:35","影片長度":"00:06:36","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T14:14:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T14:21:35+08:00","duration":396,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.3553437500000003,"end":8.012843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.012843750000002,"end":8.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.02971875,"end":12.349718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.14784375,"end":8.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.632843750000003,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.64846875,"end":19.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.715343750000002,"end":32.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.68409375,"end":73.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.62284375,"end":84.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.43971875000001,"end":86.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.54471875,"end":91.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.34159375,"end":95.61096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.55596875,"end":111.40596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.50721875,"end":123.45471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.48846875000001,"end":125.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.54721875000001,"end":132.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.19159375,"end":136.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.14471875,"end":139.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.80659375000002,"end":148.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.32409375,"end":150.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.48846875,"end":162.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.68909375,"end":171.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.25721875000002,"end":190.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.44846875000002,"end":197.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.70471875,"end":205.24784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.61909375000002,"end":208.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.85909375,"end":214.37721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.17034375,"end":215.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.45284375000003,"end":221.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.17784375000002,"end":238.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.25221875000003,"end":232.53471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.90096875,"end":286.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.96409375000002,"end":240.11159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.88784375,"end":241.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.54159375,"end":245.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.06409375,"end":247.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.20409375,"end":270.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.88221875,"end":277.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.10846875000004,"end":294.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.20846875,"end":314.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.42909375,"end":329.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.54471875,"end":331.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.82721875000004,"end":333.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.97034375000004,"end":338.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.59409375,"end":342.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.28534375000004,"end":345.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.03596875,"end":346.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.81221875,"end":346.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.99784375,"end":356.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.78159375,"end":354.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.49846875000003,"end":360.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.61159375,"end":364.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.90221875000003,"end":365.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.42534375,"end":366.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.92721875,"end":373.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.71096875,"end":373.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.86284375,"end":375.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.52909375,"end":396.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.70346875,"end":394.88909375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.373,"end":7.484,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們是有請這個交通部陳部長跟鐵道局陳副局長"},{"start":21.749,"end":36.964,"text":"好 部長部長基於這個兩年前所頒布的文化藝術講座及促進條例那第15條第一項公有建築物及重大公共工程的新辦因辦理公共藝術營造美學環境"},{"start":39.646,"end":58.076,"text":"其辦理經費不得少於該建築物及公共工程造價的1%所以我們嘉義市的鐵路高架化因為嘉義市的鐵路高架化除了在嘉義市之外很大的量體是在嘉義縣的水上鄉包括北回車站以及包括整個車輛基地"},{"start":59.336,"end":82.422,"text":"很大的量體在水上箱那我們也知道說整個嘉義的鐵路高架化總經費334億中央負擔了276億那所以在於基於我剛剛說的這一個文化的一個促進條例那他應該要核定公共藝術最後核定了2.53億我覺得這2.53億事實上比總預算的334億還要少"},{"start":88.043,"end":95.609,"text":"這個第一個問題啦不過已經核定了就核定了那我現在要講在接下來的部分那所以接下來的部分我們來看下一頁那這下一頁就把這樣的一個公共藝術的一個設置計畫我們看到在嘉義車站有480萬那嘉義車站的風雨走廊4500萬那以及我剛剛講的在於北回車站1200萬"},{"start":111.693,"end":132.527,"text":"水上車輛基地6400萬那有這樣的一個公共藝術的一個規劃這些也都沒問題那現在問題來了我要講嘉義車站跟北回車站這兩個嘉義車站咧是228事件當年有我們嘉義市最有名的畫家陳澄波那以及像潘木之這樣很多的社會賢達他們在嘉義車站這邊"},{"start":136.289,"end":157.053,"text":"然後開始抗議然後抗議整個228事件最後演變到了三二事件也就是在水上機場的大幅的這個軍民的一個這個直接可以說是武裝對峙那甚至當時在水上機場爆發的武裝對峙我們知道了還有所謂空投軍糧給在水上機場的人所以整個228事件發生"},{"start":162.774,"end":186.69,"text":"最重大的衝突就是從嘉義的火車站延伸到了水上機場那水上機場就在現在北回車站的正對面所以以這段故事來說我們認為說嘉義我們在於規劃這個鐵路高架化的公共藝術的時候那以及現在我們對於不當遺址我剛講了嘉義火車站以及北回"},{"start":187.73,"end":212.75,"text":"機場前面這裡都是屬於不當遺址那我們基於對文化不當遺址的保存我認為鐵道局有責任在於規劃這些公共藝術的時候必須要把這些不當遺址他們當年所發生的元素不管用怎樣的呈現方式要在這兩個地點把這些元素把它放到公共藝術裡面這個有問題嗎來"},{"start":216.562,"end":241.284,"text":"報告委員您提的這個建議非常好啦我覺得這個歷史的記憶在當地還是必須要做一些呈現畢竟當時發生事情就是交通運具的周邊所發生的這個歷史的印記一直在那個地方所以我們目前正在研議這件事情那剛好委員現在有這個建議我們就把它現在在研議中對所以我現在其實我要趕快把"},{"start":242.264,"end":268.718,"text":"這個訊息要給你們因為接下來立法院文化委員會也正在審理不當遺址的一個保存的一個條例所以未來這個相關的法案是要整併在一起的那你把它整併在一起看的話整個228事件在嘉義發生最嚴重的這個軍民衝突的一個地點那水上這個車輛基地或者是這個嘉義車站都是應該要慎重考量的"},{"start":269.478,"end":293.458,"text":"所以在講這個部長我覺得你這樣一個善意的回應我就很感動我覺得我要把整個這個故事講完因為嘉義在228事件是好多我們自己很讚的這些社會的賢達在228事件犧牲就包括陳澄波好多人都在這個事件犧牲所以在嘉義過去曾經有一個爭議就是我們要興建228紀念碑"},{"start":295.279,"end":319.581,"text":"那228紀念碑咧原本他就把它要用在228公園228公園當時有一個銅像叫做無縫銅像那後來有一個鄒族嘉義鄒族原住民鄒族的年輕人把無縫銅像把它拉倒後然後決心說在這個銅像這裡把它改成228紀念碑那後來沒有在沒有在我剛講的地點他就選擇在彌陀路跟忠義路的地點叫做228紀念碑"},{"start":320.902,"end":346.452,"text":"大家都說那裡交通車流量多所以那一個紀念碑放在那個地點又會影響到交通所以後來曾經辦了一個iVoting的一個票選iVoting票選結果你知道哪裡是票選第一名嗎有三個地點叫228紀念碑園子第二個就是228紀念公園第三個就是嘉義火車站這三個地點然後讓大家票選票選出來嘉義火車站第一名大家認為應該是人啊"},{"start":347.372,"end":375.552,"text":"大家認為說228的元素在嘉義火車站那就是所有人用iVoting投出來的票選第一名主要很可惜那個票選是當年這個嘉義市政府肯認的一個票選活動可是後來沒有執行沒有照iVoting執行看起來有壓力那我覺得整個社會一直在改變現在大家對於轉型正義的想像已經不是那麼會有那麼大的壓力那我們應該要勇敢就去執行"},{"start":376.893,"end":390.358,"text":"這個地方過去發生這樣的歷史我們就是要用公共藝術把它呈現出來然後在公共藝術的背後用一些文字上的一個載述可以讓我們後代的子孫都知道過去在我們家裡車頭在我們家裡機場發生的事情這都要讓大家知道好不好好 這個我們一定會做好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1476,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（14時15分）謝謝主席！有請交通部陳部長還有鐵道局陳副局長。"],["主席：陳部長、鐵道局陳副局長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：兩年前頒布的「文化藝術獎助及促進條例」第十五條第一項規定「公有建築物及重大公共工程之興辦機關（構）應辦理公共藝術，營造美學環境，其辦理經費不得少於該建築物及公共工程造價百分之一」，我們嘉義市的鐵路高架化除了在嘉義市之外，很大的量體是在嘉義縣的水上鄉，包括北回車站以及整個車輛基地，很大的量體是在水上鄉，我們知道整個嘉義的鐵路高架化總經費334億，中央負擔了276億，基於我剛剛說的文化促進條例，應該要核定公共藝術經費，最後核定了2.53億，我覺得這2.53億事實上比總預算334億的百分之一要少，這是第一個問題，不過已經核定就核定了。我現在要講的是下一頁顯示的這個公共藝術設置計畫，分別是嘉義車站4,800萬、嘉義車站的風雨走廊4,500萬以及我剛剛講的北回車站1,200萬、水上車輛基地6,400萬，這些公共藝術規劃也都沒問題，現在問題來了，我要講的是嘉義車站跟北回車站，二二八事件，當年我們嘉義市最有名的畫家陳澄波以及像潘木枝這樣的很多社會賢達在嘉義車站這邊開始抗議整個二二八事件，最後演變到了三二事件，也就是在水上機場發生大幅的軍民可以說是武裝對峙，甚至當時在水上機場爆發武裝對峙時，還有所謂空投軍糧給在水上機場的人，所以整個二二八事件中發生最重大衝突的就是從嘉義的火車站延伸到了水上機場，而水上機場就在現在北回車站的正對面，所以以這段故事來說，我們認為在我們規劃嘉義鐵路高架化的公共藝術時，對於不當遺址，我剛講了，嘉義火車站以及水上機場前面這裡都是屬於不當遺址，基於對文化不當遺址的保存，我認為鐵道局有責任在規劃這些公共藝術的時候，必須要把這些不當遺址當年所發生的元素，不管用怎樣的呈現方式，要在這兩個地點把這些元素放到公共藝術裡面，這個有問題嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您提的這個建議非常好，我覺得這個歷史的記憶在當地還是必須要做一些呈現，畢竟當時在交通運具周邊所發生的歷史的印記一直都還在那個地方，所以我們目前正在研議這件事情，剛好委員現在有這個建議，我們就把它納入，委員的建議我們一定放進來。"],["蔡委員易餘：現在在研議中，所以我現在要趕快把這個訊息給你們，因為接下來立法院的教育文化委員會也正在審理不當遺址的保存條例，所以未來相關的法案是要整併在一起的，那把它整併在一起看的話，整個二二八事件，嘉義是發生最嚴重軍民衝突的一個地點，因此水上的車輛基地或者是嘉義車站都是應該要慎重考量的。"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["蔡委員易餘：對部長有這樣一個善意的回應，我覺得很感動，所以我要把這整個故事講完，因為好多我們嘉義很讚的社會賢達都在二二八事件中犧牲了，包括陳澄波，好多人都在這個事件中犧牲了，所以在嘉義過去曾經有一個爭議，就是我們要興建二二八紀念碑，原本是要把它放在二二八公園，但當時二二八公園中有個吳鳳的銅像，後來有一個嘉義原住民鄒族的年輕人把吳鳳銅像拉倒，大家就說把銅像這裡改成二二八紀念碑，後來沒有放在我剛剛講的地點，是選擇在彌陀路和忠義路那個地點興建二二八紀念碑，不過大家都說那個地點的車流量多，那個紀念碑放在那個地點會影響到交通，所以後來曾經辦了一個i-Voting票選，結果你知道哪裡是票選第一名嗎？有三個地點，第一個是二二八紀念碑原址，第二個是二二八紀念公園，第三個是嘉義火車站，這三個地點讓大家票選，票選出來是嘉義火車站第一名……"],["陳部長世凱：大家認為應該設在那裡。"],["蔡委員易餘：大家認為二二八的元素在嘉義火車站，那個是嘉義人用i-Voting票選出來的第一名，不過很可惜，那個票選是當年嘉義市政府肯認的票選活動，可是後來沒有執行，沒有照i-Voting執行，看起來有壓力。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得整個社會一直在改變，現在大家對於轉型正義的想像已經不會有那麼大的壓力……"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：那我們應該要勇敢去執行，這個地方過去發生這樣的歷史，我們就是要用公共藝術把它呈現出來，然後在公共藝術的背後用文字上的載述讓我們的後代子孫都知道過去在嘉義車站、在嘉義機場發生的事情，這都要讓我們的後代知道，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們一定會做。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：一定會做，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，感謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員。","林月琴、林月琴，林月琴委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","現在時間已晚，本席因為配合大家，所以就提出書面質詢，因為配合大家。","另外，特別提醒交通部林司長及黃司長，本席非常重視的就是行人專用時相這個政策，我們當然已經發現問題，這個政策確實也有做，可是我看所有資料，做得比較符合我們政策的只有臺北市，其他五都，看起來，這個政策雖好，但是推行緩慢，所以我要拜託部長督促一下，這和行人安全及人車爭道是有關的，我要拜託部長督促兩位司長，這個要多宣導，讓地方政府配合去做，好的政策，中央地方要一併去推行，不要製造一國兩制，我看所有資料，宣導是不足的，有些人知道人行道怎麼樣走，有些人不知道，這個就是宣導不足，拜託黃司長及林司長，在部長督促的情況之下，這個部分要納入重點，這要拜託部長一下。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：一、報告及詢答完畢。二、林德福委員、黃健豪委員、蘇清泉委員、吳宗憲委員、邱鎮軍委員、林國成委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報。三、委員質詢中要求提供相關書面資料，或未及答復部分，請交通部及相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160839","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160839","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423699f1339a3f801b960385a4fd0f0fffa49d80416c5864e049c7082a9d1d9fc83395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"14:06:20 - 14:14:16","影片長度":"00:07:56","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T14:06:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T14:14:16+08:00","duration":476,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.00096875,"end":3.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.40159375,"end":7.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.64159375,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.88471875,"end":18.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.47534375,"end":26.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.676593750000002,"end":33.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.392843750000004,"end":47.399093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.99096875,"end":40.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.66909375,"end":52.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.984718750000006,"end":58.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.16096875,"end":66.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.50159375,"end":76.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.21721875,"end":102.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.54221875,"end":120.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.72096875000001,"end":124.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.46721875,"end":131.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.85846875000001,"end":135.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.19534375,"end":155.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.56784375,"end":186.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.71909375,"end":194.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.62096875,"end":199.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.08909375000002,"end":196.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.97471875000002,"end":202.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.48909375000002,"end":200.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.96971875000003,"end":206.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.74159375000002,"end":204.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.41221875000002,"end":215.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.67659375000002,"end":221.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.52034375000002,"end":216.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.45221875000001,"end":225.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.00909375,"end":221.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.40971875000002,"end":222.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.32909375000003,"end":228.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.16846875000002,"end":229.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.32846875,"end":232.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.02409375000002,"end":238.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.16659375,"end":246.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.77721875,"end":247.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.46471875,"end":283.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.12159375000005,"end":286.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.56846875,"end":307.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":307.69596875,"end":316.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.85909375,"end":319.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.16284375000004,"end":320.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.06534375,"end":325.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.10659375,"end":326.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.08534375,"end":335.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.50159375000004,"end":339.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.75846875,"end":350.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.11534375,"end":356.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.56596875,"end":441.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":442.12221875,"end":446.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.72096875000005,"end":445.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.04159375,"end":445.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.05846875000003,"end":445.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.42534375,"end":449.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.31534375,"end":463.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.20909375,"end":454.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.63784375,"end":473.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.99909375000004,"end":475.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.91034375000004,"end":474.97784375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.352,"end":8.382,"text":"謝謝主席本席有請陳部長交通部陳部長"},{"start":17.932,"end":31.873,"text":"委員好部長還有我們國城召委以及各位官員大家都辛苦了到這麼晚但是本席也要就為什麼我們每次交通部長來大概都要到兩點以後"},{"start":33.519,"end":57.851,"text":"原因應該是因為各縣市我們這個區域立委都為地方要來爭取所以我們交通建設應該是所有建設之首整個帶動區域的發展所以我們交通的很多的部件應該是要超前部署而且也是要能夠評估就是要能夠看到10年20年後"},{"start":59.252,"end":76.341,"text":"那本席在這裡要特別感謝我們林昭偉還有部長在這個禮拜一來到新竹來考察那我們新竹高鐵站新竹高鐵站馬上也整個的在規劃西側西側的建設所以整個的不管是"},{"start":77.421,"end":102.596,"text":"人的容量車流的容量還有整個的規劃能不能符合十年二十年後因為我們交通的建設動輒五年十年甚至十幾年重大建設所以我們在這裡我們還是要特別特別的提醒我們要看到未來的需求而不是現況然後我們稍微那個能夠符合或者是符合"},{"start":103.604,"end":123.464,"text":"的承載量多一點點而已但是在整個興建的過程可能就5到10年這5到10年地方的發展又帶動過來所以建好以後好像剛剛好而已結果不久又不夠了所以這一點本席在這邊一開始先特別的提那一天我們到新竹高鐵站有一個"},{"start":125.106,"end":150.607,"text":"問題本席在這裡要再特別提一下就是我們新竹高鐵站這個計程車太少這個部分看是不是可以幫我們改善我們這個我們新竹高鐵站的這個乘客人次是等於全國大概第四第五這個前幾名的那但是呢這個計程車人次少當然部長那天來也發現我們的客運"},{"start":151.468,"end":164.786,"text":"也幾乎是沒有我們只有接駁車少數的接駁車整個新竹縣也需要有公車完全沒有公車的部分本席在這裡也要特別請命交通部可以來幫忙"},{"start":167.189,"end":185.903,"text":"新竹高鐵站的計程車太少所以常常等計程車的人排得很長人家以為最近又有演唱會還是說高鐵站哪一個店賣的東西賣得像我們富航豆漿一樣哇 排得人人龍排得很長所以這一塊部長可不可以協助"},{"start":187.089,"end":206.634,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們跟地方政府大家來討論一下看那周圍的計程車的整體提供的量看可不可以增加那另外一方面新竹高鐵簽的嘛他們有簽啦但是量的部分好像也不是我們能夠好來請董事長謝謝委員指教"},{"start":208.755,"end":227.382,"text":"那這個有關計程車確實是計程車這部分的排班計程車是由高鐵公司負責來招募那在這個量體方面我想這個委員的建議我們會把它放在心裡請你們一定要來重視因為這個問題很久了希望能夠盡快解決我會希望鼓勵更多計程車經理對 謝謝再來就是我們"},{"start":233.144,"end":244.591,"text":"新竹監理站人力不足的本席在這裡也要特別請命就是我們新竹監理站它整個的業務量桃竹竹苗整個涵蓋那這個罰單最近"},{"start":249.013,"end":270.765,"text":"也一直暴增那業務量一直增加但人力一直不足所以這一塊本席今天也特別在這裡來代為請命好那接著接著接著本席要就我們這個新豐火車站我們秀一下投影片新豐火車站部長可能有個螺絲鬆掉了本席要特別的"},{"start":272.046,"end":291.651,"text":"請部長看一下在這個投影片裡面我們新豐站每天搭車人次是相對這麼多站裡面最高但是對後班次是零區間快的班次最少結果總班次也是最少人數最多這是不是應該要調整"},{"start":294.572,"end":317.262,"text":"所以這一塊部長可以幫忙吧您看到這數字我想您應該也感受很深所以我們衛星風站這裡我們可以增加我們對號班次還有區間快的班次可以嗎報告委員如果他的人數是比較多的那應該理論上班次應該是會增加的啦對所以這個部分我們在6月會6月26號會做調整會增加"},{"start":320.863,"end":333.548,"text":"我們真的要拜託那最後部長本席請教一下我們全國的鄉鎮市所謂的鄉全國有大概146個鄉"},{"start":336.567,"end":355.673,"text":"最大的鄉是哪一個鄉你知道嗎湖口鄉就在新竹縣的湖口鄉那表示他的人數是全國146個鄉裡面最多的那所以湖口鄉他剛好又是在我們台一線上而且也是我們中山高經過的"},{"start":356.693,"end":381.863,"text":"那這個部長就是您每次下了舞陽之後你要回台中開始塞車的大概就是湖口快到了就是這個鄉所以我們知道舞陽的這個拓關工程已經在規劃而且很快會施工但是我們是不是可以新增湖口第二交流道這個部分地方的說明會以及各種評估也已經送到"},{"start":382.603,"end":396.136,"text":"我們中央 已經送到中央所以本席在這裡要特別的來請命因為我們虎口鄉呢它整個腹地有新竹工業區也就現在的新竹產業園區還有鳳山工業區"},{"start":399.159,"end":420.376,"text":"而且現在未來有整個富邦人壽的大型物流中心BOO案還有全家便利商店的全溫城大型物流中心BOO案很多大型企業的進駐所以大量的工作聚會大型的企業員工開車通勤物流貨運的配送整個的交通非常的需求"},{"start":420.896,"end":441.143,"text":"所以我們知道舞陽高架拓寬之後現在塞得很嚴重舞陽高架拓寬之後可能可以稍微疏解但是未來10年20年我們還是需要急速的現在就來超前部署我們的虎口第二交流道那本席在這裡也要請命請部長這裡可以支持好嗎"},{"start":442.179,"end":462.494,"text":"好 報告委員 應該地方有在做可行的討論嗎我們四月剛做完 四月十四號如果說地方已經做完可行性研究以後他被尋釋去報到那個高空局高空局有個委員會他被審議這個案子如果說確定是可行的話那後續高空局就會接續做相關的規劃設計"},{"start":463.695,"end":473.264,"text":"是所以本席是想請部長這裡可以了解您也是感受到虎口塞車您感同身受所以請部長這邊來支持可以嗎好謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1450,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（14時6分）謝謝主席！本席有請陳部長。"],["主席：交通部陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長還有我們的國成召委以及各位官員，大家都辛苦了，會開到這麼晚，但是為什麼每次交通部長來的會大概都要開到2點以後呢？原因應該是我們這些各縣市的區域立委都要為地方來爭取，而交通建設又是所有建設之首，帶動整個區域的發展，所以交通的很多布建應該要超前部署，而且也要能夠評估到10年、20年以後。本席在這裡要特別感謝我們林召委還有部長，在這個禮拜一來到新竹考察，我們新竹的高鐵站也在規劃西側的建設，所以要考量不管是人的容量、車流的容量還有整個的規劃能不能符合10年、20年後所需，因為交通的建設是重大建設，工期動輒5年、10年，甚至有長達十幾年的，所以在這裡還是要特別、特別地提醒，我們要看到未來的需求，而不是符合現況或是承載量稍微能夠多一點點而已，因為整個興建的過程可能就需5到10年，在這5到10年裡，地方的發展又帶動了，所以建好以後好像剛剛好而已，但是不久之後又不夠了，這點是本席一開始就要先特別提醒的。那天我們到新竹高鐵站後發現一個問題，本席在這裡要再特別提一下，那就是我們新竹高鐵站的計程車太少，這個部分看看是不是可以幫我們改善。新竹高鐵站的乘客人次大概在全國排在第4或第5，是前幾名的，但是計程車次少，部長那天來也發現我們的客運也幾乎是沒有，只有少數的接駁車，整個新竹縣完全沒有公車的部分，本席在這裡要特別請命，希望交通部可以來幫忙。新竹高鐵站的計程車太少，導致乘客等待計程車的隊伍常常排得很長，人家還以為最近又有演唱會還是高鐵站哪家店賣的東西像阜杭豆漿一樣，排隊的人龍排得很長，請問對這個部分，部長可不可以協助？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分我們跟地方政府來討論一下，看看周圍的計程車整體提供的量可不可以增加。"],["徐委員欣瑩：計程車應該是新竹高鐵簽的嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對，他們有簽啦，但是量的部分也不是我們能夠決定的，這部分請董事長說明。"],["鄭董事長光遠：謝謝委員指教，有關排班計程車的部分，確實是由高鐵公司負責招募，至於量體方面該有多少，我們會把委員的建議放在心裡。"],["徐委員欣瑩：請你們一定要重視，因為這個問題已經存在很久了，希望能夠儘快解決。"],["陳部長世凱：希望鼓勵更多計程車進駐。"],["鄭董事長光遠：是的，是的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：謝謝！再來就是我們新竹監理站人力不足的問題，本席在這裡也要特別請命，就是我們新竹監理站的業務涵蓋整個桃竹竹苗，最近罰單也暴增，業務量一直增加但人力卻始終不足，所以本席今天也特別在這裡代為請命。","接著本席要提的是新豐火車站可能有個螺絲鬆掉了，本席要請部長看一下這個投影片，新豐站每天的搭車人次在這麼多站裡面是相對最高的，但是對號班次是零，區間快的班次最少，結果區間車的總班次也是最少，而搭車人數卻最多，這是不是應該要調整？對這部分，部長可以幫忙吧？看到這個數字，我想您應該也感受很深，所以在新豐站這裡，可以增加對號班次還有區間快的班次嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，如果該站的人數是比較多的，理論上班次應該是會增加的，所以這個部分我們在6月26號會做調整，會增加。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝，這個我們真的要拜託部長。最後要請教部長，我們全國鄉鎮市中所謂的鄉大概有146個，你知道最大的鄉是哪一個嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我不曉得。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是湖口鄉，就是位在新竹縣的湖口鄉，這也表示它的人口數是全國146個鄉裡面最多的，而湖口鄉剛好是在我們的台1線上，又有中山高經過，部長回臺中每次下了五楊之後開始塞車大概就是湖口快到了。我們知道五楊的拓寬工程已經在規劃而且很快會施工，但是我們是不是可以新增湖口第二交流道？這個部分的地方說明會以及各種評估也已經送到我們中央，所以本席在這裡要特別來請命，因為我們湖口鄉的腹地有新竹工業區，也就是現在的新竹產業園區，還有鳳山工業區，而且未來有富邦人壽的大型物流中心BOO案及全家便利商店的全溫層大型物流中心BOO案等很多大型企業進駐，所以大量的工作機會、大型企業員工的開車通勤、物流貨運的配送，對於交通非常有需求。我們知道現在交通壅塞得很嚴重，五楊高架拓寬之後可能可以稍微抒解，但是想到未來10年、20年的需求，我們還是需要急速的、現在就來超前部署湖口第二交流道，本席在這裡也要請命，請部長可以支持。好嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，如果地方有在做可行性……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們4月剛做完。"],["黃司長運貴：如果地方已經做完可行性研究，之後會循程序報到高公局，高公局有個委員會會審議這個案子，如果確定可行的話，高公局就會接續做相關的規劃設計。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席是想請部長這邊可以瞭解，您對湖口塞車也是感同身受，所以請部長這邊來支持。可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇，王鴻薇委員不在。","林德福、林德福，林德福委員不在。","葉元之、葉元之，葉元之委員不在。","吳宗憲、吳宗憲，吳宗憲委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","羅明才、羅明才，羅明才委員不在。","現在請蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160838","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160838","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423694119ab27534e06b1385a4fd0f0fffa49d80416c5864e049cf1956145e7c495575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"13:59:28 - 14:06:06","影片長度":"00:06:38","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T13:59:28+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T14:06:06+08:00","duration":398,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.14784375,"end":10.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.425968750000003,"end":12.535343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.544093750000002,"end":11.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.88971875,"end":21.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.67846875,"end":16.180343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.54659375,"end":24.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.95534375,"end":26.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.54096875,"end":75.83346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.71096875,"end":77.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.70659375000001,"end":77.74034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.74034375000001,"end":77.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.97659375,"end":78.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.07784375,"end":78.14534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.14534375000001,"end":78.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.49971875,"end":89.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.83159375000001,"end":97.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.83409375000001,"end":108.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.79159375,"end":101.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":101.24721875,"end":101.29784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":107.96346875,"end":108.26721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":108.30096875000001,"end":108.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":108.73971875000001,"end":121.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":121.75034375000001,"end":127.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":128.07846875,"end":130.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":130.76159375,"end":137.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":137.41034375,"end":160.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.32221875000002,"end":164.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.96721875,"end":165.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.42284375,"end":167.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":167.29596875000001,"end":187.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":187.98471875,"end":188.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.03534375,"end":241.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.93409375000002,"end":241.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":241.96784375000001,"end":242.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.05221875,"end":242.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":242.82846875,"end":251.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":252.02534375000002,"end":283.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.83471875000004,"end":284.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.98221875,"end":286.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":286.38284375,"end":288.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.04096875,"end":287.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":287.17596875000004,"end":288.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.22221875,"end":288.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":288.54284375000003,"end":290.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.02784375000005,"end":290.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.21346875,"end":290.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.55096875000004,"end":291.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.11596875000004,"end":300.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.14846875,"end":302.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.36346875000004,"end":304.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.74284375,"end":310.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.53096875,"end":322.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.34346875,"end":337.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.59596875,"end":327.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":338.07096875,"end":339.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.69096875,"end":340.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":341.12534375,"end":341.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":341.96909375,"end":343.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":344.39909375,"end":345.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":344.70284375,"end":348.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.09096875,"end":345.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":345.96846875,"end":346.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.57971875000004,"end":364.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":350.52471875000003,"end":350.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":350.54159375,"end":351.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.36846875000003,"end":351.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.38096875,"end":352.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":352.41471875,"end":352.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.66784375000003,"end":352.81971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.09221875000003,"end":370.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.10909375,"end":364.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.50909375000003,"end":372.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":372.31034375,"end":378.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.78659375,"end":377.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":378.50346875,"end":384.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.52346875,"end":388.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.02971875000003,"end":386.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":388.72971875,"end":391.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":391.69971875000005,"end":399.56346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.6,"end":25.785,"text":"你好我們請部長好請交通部陳部長跟鐵道局鐵道局陳副局長跟這個國營台灣鐵路部門有限公司好台鐵那個台台鐵吳代董事長"},{"start":30.56,"end":47.038,"text":"部長好部長我想應該是今年去年我們都有質詢交通部在院會的時候也有質詢那就是主要是針對我們民雄鐵路高價化的一個進度那我們有在嘉義的民雄也有開過相關的這個座談會還有跟我們嘉義的民眾來討論過"},{"start":48.399,"end":75.699,"text":"那那個時候的時程是跟我們我們在去年的時候要跟我們講的時程是如同我們現在圖面上所講的113年8月來這個經費審議報告然後114年5月臨時鐵軌決標開工然後114年12月主體工程決標開工那目標他們是當作是定10月份那我想請教部長就是這個月臨時軌開工的進度是否如期10月份是不是可以看到有沒有機會開始看到立柱這個部分"},{"start":78.736,"end":96.709,"text":"5月份我們這個開工的部分應該是沒有問題啦我有請鐵道局在5月份臨時軌的部分開工是沒有問題但是整個工程程序有沒有辦法到明年的10月嗎臨時軌的開工的進度是不是就跟我們當初規劃的一樣還有10月份是不是有機會開到立柱這樣的部分"},{"start":99.805,"end":120.852,"text":"臨時軌這個部分沒有問題啦開工一定是在5月會有做開工的動作那臨時軌有沒有10月當時有講到那個立柱的部分有講到10月嗎這個部分可能要跟委員先做一個說明其實我們這個進度我們一直在跟嘉義縣政府也充分的做溝通特別是在"},{"start":121.792,"end":136.531,"text":"民雄站的部分我們也有一個充分的工作在嘉義縣政府也開過三次的會議那當然是整個可能就是說整個主體計畫的部分我們會就是說在"},{"start":138.073,"end":160.231,"text":"應該說在今年已經奉政院審核通過之後我們現在在辦主體計畫的招標招完標之後我們才有辦法跟如同委員您所講的有開工跟立柱所以我們現在正在進行主體工程的招標作業"},{"start":161.372,"end":187.758,"text":"ok 所以可不可以給我幾個時間點就是你可以再說明大概是幾月幾個因為招標作業並非部長或者是我們局所可以控制是有沒有人來領標然後是不是可以順利的決標等等所以這個部分我們會在今年內盡快的去把這件事情把它給完成"},{"start":188.979,"end":207.813,"text":"其實我們先談整個整個總體的這個建設那很多我們的民眾是希望盡快看到這個工程的施作所以他們在這段期間會有相對的不安感所以我們才希望說能夠盡快把至少在這個施作的部分能夠很清楚的跟他們講"},{"start":208.553,"end":232.966,"text":"那再來就是我想另外一個部分就是我們之前一直有提到這個橋下的空間那這又或者是我們有提到橋上空間他未來以前在台中的時候在台中車站高架後有長達四五年還有橋下空間沒有人撐住那隨便長期使用這個綠色的鐵圍拔來拔圍住那其實非常不美觀而且浪費空間"},{"start":233.906,"end":250.751,"text":"所以我們應該要提早規劃在我們現在都還沒有開始之前先把這個東西想好這個部分不知道有沒有什麼樣的回應我來跟委員做一個說明其實這個議題的部分我們也有跟嘉義縣政府做充分的溝通其實這個"},{"start":252.531,"end":274.665,"text":"橋下的空間可以做很多元的的運用所以在這個部分可能就是未來就是嘉義縣政府還有鐵路公司等等相關單位可能要進一步的做相關的規劃之後才有辦法然後去定案所以這個部分可能"},{"start":275.385,"end":290.88,"text":"未來就針對這個議題的部分可能還要召開相關的平台會議再去做進一步的探討參與方有誰參與方要找誰台鐵公司這問題台鐵公司那我們是不是請台鐵公司來講一下"},{"start":293.117,"end":321.426,"text":"我跟委員報告這橋下部分涉及到都市計劃變更那些都市計劃變更目前已經完了現在大概我們在等這個加以那個縣府他發布那後面的話我們大概以多目標來這個方式來申請剛提到底下可能有一些複合式的一些商業機能我們會朝這個方式來做那這部分剛提到我們會儘早先來作業那剛才這根本還要再跟那個縣政府我們再多協調一下"},{"start":322.426,"end":324.267,"text":"我們希望在今年可以完成因為現在在招標的階段"},{"start":349.922,"end":377.89,"text":"報告委員如果招標順利的話如果招標順利的話我們當然就是照原本的時程但是唯一的變數是這個樣子就是招標的廠商如果來的不踴躍或者是無法標出去的話那當然就是另外另外的處理模式所以我們如果這一切順利的話五月招標決標是有可能的那可不可以再麻煩招標如果順利五月是OK的再麻煩協助讓盡可能讓多元一點進來就是也是要有更多人知道不然"},{"start":379.671,"end":398.293,"text":"對這個部分可不可以全力協助一下我們還是希望不要一直說今年啦就盡量這個月能夠解決是就這個月好不好不要拖到明年好不好因為很多民眾就說希望趕快已經看到這已經有開始有在圍起來了所以期望很高所以再麻煩大家好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1420,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（13時59分）你好，請部長。"],["主席：好，請交通部陳部長。"],["陳委員冠廷：請鐵道局。"],["主席：請鐵道局陳副局長。"],["陳委員冠廷：請國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司。"],["主席：臺鐵伍代董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好！今年和去年我都有質詢過交通部，在院會的時候也有，主要是針對我們民雄鐵路高架化的進度，我們在嘉義的民雄也有開過相關的座談會，還跟我們嘉義的民眾討論過，去年跟我們講的時程是如同現在螢幕上所顯示的：113年8月經費審議報告、114年5月臨時鐵軌決標開工、114年12月主體工程決標開工，至於目標，他們當初定的是10月份，我想請教部長的是這個月臨時軌開工的進度是否如期？10月份有沒有機會開始看到立柱這個部分？"],["陳部長世凱：5月份開工這個部分應該是沒有問題，但是整個工程程序有沒有辦法到10月……"],["陳委員冠廷：我是說目前臨時軌開工的進度是不是就跟我們當初規劃的一樣？還有10月份是不是有機會看到立柱的部分？"],["陳部長世凱：臨時軌這個部分沒有問題，5月一定會有開工的動作，那個立柱的部分當時有講到10月嗎？"],["陳副局長文德：這個部分可能要跟委員先做一個說明，其實對於這個進度，我們一直在跟嘉義縣政府做充分的溝通，特別是在民雄站的部分，我們也有充分的溝通，在嘉義縣政府開過3次會議，整個主體計畫的部分，應該是在今年已經奉政院審核通過，現在在辦主體計畫的招標，招標完成後，才有辦法如同委員所講的有開工跟立柱，所以我們現在正在進行主體工程的招標作業。"],["陳委員冠廷：可不可以給我幾個時間點？就是你可以再說明大概是幾月幾日？"],["陳副局長文德：因為招標作業並非部長或者是我們局可以決定的，是取決於有沒有人來領標然後是不是可以順利決標等等，我們會在今年內儘快完成這件事情。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們先來談整個總體建設，很多民眾都希望儘快看到這個工程的施作，因為他們在這段期間會有相對的不安感，所以我們才希望說能夠儘快至少在施作的部分很清楚地讓他們知曉。另外一個部分就是我們之前一直提到的橋下空間，在院會質詢時也有提到，以前臺中車站高架後，有長達四、五年的時間，它的橋下空間沒有人承租，變成長期使用綠色的鐵圍籬圍住，其實非常不美觀而且浪費空間，所以我們應該要提早規劃，在還沒有開始施作之前，先把這個部分想好，請問你們對此有什麼樣的回應？"],["陳副局長文德：我來跟委員做一個說明，這個議題我們也有跟嘉義縣政府做充分的溝通，其實這個橋下的空間可以做很多元的運用，所以對這個部分，未來可能要由嘉義縣政府還有鐵路公司等等相關單位做進一步的相關規劃，之後才有辦法定案，所以針對這個議題，未來可能還要召開相關的平台會議，再去做進一步的探討。"],["陳委員冠廷：參與方要找誰？"],["陳副局長文德：臺鐵公司。"],["陳委員冠廷：是不是請臺鐵公司來講一下？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：跟委員報告，橋下部分涉及到都市計畫變更，目前都市計畫變更已經完成了，現在在等嘉義縣府發布，後面我們大概會以多目標的方式來申請，剛剛提到底下可能會有一些複合式的商業機能，我們會朝這個方式來做，這個部分我們會儘早先來作業，但還要再跟縣政府協調一下。"],["陳委員冠廷：縣政府這邊我們也會去跟他們接洽，就是先做好預備。剛才副局長提到不知道有沒有人來參與，也不知道會有多少人來參與然後才可以開標、決標，這些都還不太確定，但是原則上是5月嘛！"],["陳副局長文德：我們希望在今年可以完成，現在在招標的階段。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，如果招標順利的話，我們當然就是照原本的時程，唯一的變數就是招標的廠商如果來得不踴躍或者是無法標出去的話，那當然就是另外的處理模式。"],["陳委員冠廷：如果這一切順利的話，5月招標、決標是有可能的？"],["陳部長世凱：招標如果順利，5月是OK的。"],["陳委員冠廷：可不可以麻煩你們協助一下，盡可能讓多元一點進來，希望能有更多人知道，這個部分可不可以全力協助一下？我們還是希望不要一直說今年，儘量能在這個月解決就在這個月解決，好不好？不要拖到明年。因為很多民眾說已經看到開始有在圍起來了，所以期望很高，這點再麻煩大家，謝謝！"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員。","伍麗華、伍麗華，伍麗華委員不在。","現在請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160837","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160837","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b94236984c781706f48c7c2385a4fd0f0fffa49d80416c5864e049c0385acd6577be4b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"13:49:42 - 13:59:11","影片長度":"00:09:29","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T13:49:42+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T13:59:11+08:00","duration":569,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.45596875,"end":12.704093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.25221875,"end":19.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.403468750000002,"end":19.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.56784375,"end":21.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.614093750000002,"end":21.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.63096875,"end":22.187843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.54596875,"end":27.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.469718750000002,"end":85.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.36784375,"end":90.58221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.10534375,"end":92.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.40471875,"end":99.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.77909375,"end":105.09471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.21284375,"end":118.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.69596875,"end":118.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.72971875,"end":119.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.48471875000001,"end":176.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.54346875000002,"end":217.34721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.54971875,"end":244.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.80096875,"end":229.95284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.66346875000002,"end":265.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":265.60971875,"end":269.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.33909375,"end":279.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":272.30909375000005,"end":272.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":276.96659375,"end":277.40534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":279.54846875000004,"end":293.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.20034375,"end":297.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":297.41909375,"end":326.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.52846875,"end":337.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":337.69971875000005,"end":340.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.80471875,"end":342.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":341.78346875,"end":343.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.04471875,"end":350.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":345.66471875,"end":346.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.16596875000005,"end":358.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.03409375,"end":358.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.41784375000003,"end":359.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":359.46846875,"end":359.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.58659375,"end":359.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.24471875,"end":360.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.76346875,"end":369.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.67784375,"end":369.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.69471875000005,"end":369.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.71159375,"end":373.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.32284375,"end":382.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":380.76471875000004,"end":395.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.22221875,"end":422.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":400.98096875000005,"end":404.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":405.01409375000003,"end":406.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":420.42096875000004,"end":424.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":424.90971875,"end":453.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.09909375,"end":428.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.48721875,"end":428.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.86721875,"end":457.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":457.78221875,"end":470.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.77596875,"end":479.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":472.63221875000005,"end":473.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":479.34846875000005,"end":482.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.11596875000004,"end":486.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":485.38971875000004,"end":488.98409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.11909375000005,"end":492.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.94971875000005,"end":497.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":497.97846875000005,"end":567.7903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.1272187500001,"end":518.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":567.9084687500001,"end":569.14034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.686,"end":21.875,"text":"謝謝趙偉 還有請部長好 我們交通部陳部長那也有請一下台鐵公司代理董事長吳代董事長"},{"start":28.3,"end":47.252,"text":"其實在南投在上次這個交通委員會還有我們的考察其實許多事情其實還是也感謝交通部對於南投的幫忙那很多事項的話也都有逐一的來協助落實跟包括經費的提供也算是對交通部表達感謝"},{"start":48.172,"end":67.62,"text":"那在特別請就是代理董事長的時候其實也就是要在追蹤就是上一次有在會議上有提到在積極支線就是在目前預計可以完工的時間期程那時候有提到希望能夠加快"},{"start":68.16,"end":84.338,"text":"在今年年底還能夠到車程的部分能夠來做完工那時候在評估是有這個機會那我想請教一下那目前上次提出到現在時隔一個月那這個演繹的進度如何謝謝"},{"start":85.579,"end":99.19,"text":"跟委員報告這確實回去有再找台鐵同仁再了解現在看起來還是有它的困難度不過我想我們會再努力我們就幾個環節再去看看可不可以再縮短一點"},{"start":99.807,"end":116.853,"text":"好 那盡可能來協助完整那總是希望能夠在就是今年年底明年南投燈會到時候在開始的時候那大家來南投還可以剛好重新再來振興這個我們集集支線這條觀光路線的景氣是好 謝謝"},{"start":120.543,"end":135.856,"text":"那接著就叫部長就是目前來講這個川普的貿易戰的這個部分啊那對於我們南投縣還受影響的企業家數我從縣府也調資料在1150家相關這262家都是受到衝擊"},{"start":141.641,"end":163.859,"text":"那目前來講交通部也在25號有開了產業座談因應關稅的一個會議啊那會議中的結論跟訴求我這邊也都有看到但是目前來講在美國對關稅直接充其是在生產端跟消費端在運輸則是在兩者之間最重要的一個支撐角色那本行要救救那在目前"},{"start":164.58,"end":184.797,"text":"行政院所規劃的4100億 它並沒有直接支援在這些運輸或是在這個直接在廠家的部分那這樣子要怎麼樣來去改善或是報告委員 目前我們有觀察整體的運量不管是海運或者是空運受到的影響到目前為止看起來並不大"},{"start":185.598,"end":210.382,"text":"那未來或許會受到比較大的影響那以過去的經驗其實我們對於航空業者或者是說航運業者船運業者的部分他們自己也會去做一些調控那目前我們跟他們座談的過程當中他們所提出的需求是希望我們可以增加一些彈性例如說他要調整航班的時候我們盡量快速的配合他或者他調整航程的時候我們盡量快速配合他"},{"start":210.802,"end":224.31,"text":"那這個部分我們密切跟他們做聯繫如果真的有需要的時候我們會再提出其他的方案沒關係那到時候方案再跟本席跟本委員會再提供那同樣的就在於這個將近在"},{"start":226.591,"end":242.808,"text":"七月底即將到期到週談判的一個結果那所以說現在在許多業界 尤其在我們南投縣許多受影響的企業家就擔心到時候六月中到七月初會爆發這個擠蛋潮那目前來請教一下部內或杭真實這邊預計要怎麼解決這個擠蛋潮"},{"start":246.131,"end":264.399,"text":"報告委員我們航港局其實有一個因應對策的會議包含這個平穩的機制其實我們也都有在開會我們持續在開會所以如果真的有急單來的時候我們去調配拜託國籍的航商可以幫忙去調配船艙的部分提供艙位的部分這個我們會來協調"},{"start":265.88,"end":288.518,"text":"這個那目前已經事前溝通嗎還是預計會去這麼溝通我們目前都持續在做溝通那會議也持續固定有在開但是目前變化還沒來等變化來的時候就會很積極的趕快去處理本席要表示說其實防範未然其實這個很明顯的可以預期說到時候時間點到的時候其實現在許多產業跟企業他們本身就已經心急如焚"},{"start":289.238,"end":317.839,"text":"那所以說到時候這個吉丹草如果一來的時候提早做好因應有報告委員我們5月6號航港局就會來召開會議這個部分我們會及早因應好 謝謝那再來就是在昨天的話我們大家都知道這個西班牙大停電那這個電網的部分不管是極端氣候還是說找不出原因但是在目前台灣很明顯的就要遇到5月17號河山廠第二基礎就要停役了那就直接就交部長"},{"start":318.399,"end":343.079,"text":"那如果發生這種大停電的情況之下那在台鐵的部分的運輸上是否有任何的備援方案包括我們的台鐵的廠站他都有備援方案也會有發電機也有不斷電系統尤其是在這個行控系統一定要做到不斷電所以不斷電系統都有好那這個不斷電系統的話大概電力可以維持幾小時4個小時吧所以4個小時之後的話就沒電"},{"start":344.173,"end":360.897,"text":"我們還有發電機,我們先讓他不斷電,先維持至少4個小時,但是4個小時之內我們應該很快速就會啟動發電機那過去的話,對於這樣子的一個如果大停電的一個情況之下,有做過任何的一個形式的演練嗎?我們最近3月提案也有"},{"start":363.173,"end":376.422,"text":"我們每季都會有提案演習所以我們最近在三月份一到三月就有做過一次提案演習那這個演習的話是針對就是停電的一個情況沒有 停電的部分我們會在後續的"},{"start":377.662,"end":394.438,"text":"這個鐵岸演習裡面也把這個腳本劇本把他納進去對 因為其實我們看到西班牙會發生這個情況那同樣的那本席要直接再質問就是那在河山停役之後的話目前對於台鐵的這個供電來講有受到什麼樣的衝擊嗎"},{"start":396.608,"end":421.529,"text":"報告委員這個河山廠它是影響的是整體的供電的量跟台鐵沒有直接的關係目前我們看到台鐵那邊的備載容量其實每一天都至少有百分之十幾以上所以看起來供電的狀況還可以而且我所瞭解河山廠目前的供電量佔整體的供電量很像比例沒有很高所以台鐵那邊應該是全國整體供電的風險"},{"start":424.972,"end":453.086,"text":"就是全國整體供電的一個情況所以說這個部分來講同樣的也創造了因為像西班牙這樣子無預警的電網失衡那其實就有可能會讓任何突發狀況有可能發生的時候那如果像現在來講的話台鐵的話在電力的話它的變電力是4個小時那像這樣子的話耗製的部分或是閘門閘道的部分也同樣就是在4個小時內有這樣子的一個供電措施嗎"},{"start":454.022,"end":478.798,"text":"對 我們不斷電的鋪設都是這個樣子 廠站的部分那如果說 就是說這樣子換一個角度講的話就是目前來講假如遇到大停電或是天災人禍台鐵還能夠營運的話 就大致上除了發電機之外就只剩下四個小時嘛 正常的話廠站的部分啦 如果以路線來講的話以路線來講 如果真的整體停電 路線上沒有電 當然車子無法運行"},{"start":479.506,"end":497.518,"text":"那疏散過去也有多久演練一次疏散這種方案疏散是不是三個月你們都會每一季都有演練那是以單點還是區域還是整體全國你看腳本我們也有以場戰為主然後也有配合震災或是風災區域的一個聯合演練都會"},{"start":498.038,"end":517.478,"text":"好那沒關係那防範未然啦因為時間有限那因為如果說發生大停跌或是天災人禍的時候那全國的交通運輸還是要由部長這邊來去主政那如果說以四個小時的一個備援電力來講的話那後面用發電機如果沒有電的情況之下那等於是一個鐵路系統就已經是癱瘓了"},{"start":518.459,"end":538.192,"text":"那這樣子的話不管是在天災或是戰時的話那其實在交通上以及人員的疏散上其實就是一個很大的挑戰那同樣的是在各種的一個演習演練那他目前來講以前所沿用的演練計畫相信都是比較區塊的但是本席還是希望在這個集會討論之後能夠把"},{"start":540.273,"end":568.333,"text":"各種的演練的可能性或是包括在劇本腳本的部分也能夠把它放大因為我們看到西班牙他有辦法全國大停電未來台灣如果又全國大停電那這樣子影響的不管先不管說產業上受到的衝擊那其實在民眾在交通上面的疏散跟安全就已經是一大挑戰那我們反反未然也希望說部長這邊能夠整成相關單位來做更完善的演練好沒問題謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1370,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（13時49分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長。"],["游委員顥：也有請臺鐵公司代理董事長。"],["主席：請伍代理董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["游委員顥：部長好。上次交通委員會去南投考察，許多事情還是要感謝交通部對於南投的幫忙，很多事項都有逐一來協助落實，包括經費的提供，在這邊對交通部表達感謝。今天特別請代理董事長就是要再追蹤，上次在會議上有提到集集支線目前預計可以完工的時間期程，那時候有提到希望能夠加快在今年底到車埕的部分能夠完工，當時評估是有這個機會，我想請教一下，自上次提出到現在時隔1個月，研議的進度如何？謝謝。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：跟委員報告，這部分回去確實有找臺鐵同仁再瞭解，現在看起來還是有它的困難度，不過我想我們會再努力，就幾個環節再去看看可不可以再縮短一點。"],["游委員顥：好，盡可能來協助完成，總是希望能夠在今年年底，明年南投燈會開始的時候，大家來南投可以重新振興集集支線這條觀光路線的經濟。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：是。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝。接著就教部長，目前川普的貿易戰對於我們南投縣受影響的企業家數，我也從縣府調資料，在1,150家中有262家相關產業受到衝擊，目前交通部也在25日開了產業座談因應關稅的會議，會議的結論跟訴求我這邊也都有看到，但是目前美國關稅直接衝擊的是在生產端跟消費端，運輸則是兩者之間最重要的一個支撐角色，本席想要就教，目前行政院所規劃的4,100億並沒有直接支援在運輸或是廠家的部分，這樣子要怎麼樣來改善或是……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前我們有觀察整體的運量，不管是海運或者是空運，受到的影響到目前為止看起來並不大，未來或許會受到比較大的影響，以過去的經驗其實我們對於航空業者或者航運業者、船運業者的部分，他們自己會去做一些調控，目前我們跟他們座談的過程當中，他們所提出的需求是希望我們可以增加一些彈性，例如它要調整航班的時候我們儘量快速地配合它，或者它要調整航程的時候我們儘量快速配合它，這個部分我們密切跟他們做聯繫，如果真的有需要的時候我們會再提出其他的方案。"],["游委員顥：好，沒關係，到時候方案再提供給本席跟本委員會。同樣的，這個談判的結果在7月底即將到期，所以現在許多業界尤其我們南投縣許多受影響的企業家就擔心到時候6月中到7月初會爆發急單潮，請教一下目前部內或航政司這邊預計要怎麼解決這個急單潮？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們航港局其實有一個因應對策的會議，包含這個平穩的機制，其實我們也都有在開會，我們持續在開會，所以如果真的有急單來的時候，我們去調配、拜託國籍的航商可以幫忙調配船艙的部分，提供艙位，這個我們會來協調。"],["游委員顥：這個目前已經事前溝通嗎？還是預計會去這麼溝通？"],["陳部長世凱：我們目前都持續在做溝通，會議也持續固定在開，但是目前變化還沒來，等變化來的時候就會很積極地趕快去處理。"],["游委員顥：本席要表示的是要防範未然，這個很明顯可以預期時間點到的時候，現在許多產業跟企業他們本身就已經心急如焚，所以到時候這個急單潮如果一來的時候要提早做好因應。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們航港局5月6日就會召開會議，這個部分我們會提早因應。"],["游委員顥：好，謝謝。再來就是在昨天我們大家都知道西班牙大停電，電網的部分不管是因為極端氣候還是找不出原因，但是目前臺灣很明顯地就要遇到5月17日核三廠第二機組要停役了，直接就教部長，如果發生這種大停電的情況之下，臺鐵的部分在運輸上是否有任何的備援方案？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，臺鐵的場站都有備援方案，會有發電機，也有不斷電系統，尤其是行控系統一定要做到不斷電，所以不斷電系統都有。"],["游委員顥：好，這個不斷電系統的電力大概可以維持幾小時？"],["陳部長世凱：4個小時吧！"],["游委員顥：所以4個小時之後就沒電嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們還有發電機，先讓它不斷電，先維持至少4個小時，但4個小時之內我們應該很快速就會啟動發電機。"],["游委員顥：過去對於這樣子大停電的情況有做過任何形式的演練嗎？多久一次？"],["陳部長世凱：應該是有吧。"],["馮總經理輝昇：報告委員，我們每季都會有鐵安演習，所以我們最近在3月份，1月到3月就有做過一次鐵安演習。"],["游委員顥：這個演習是針對停電的情況嗎？"],["馮總經理輝昇：沒有，停電的部分我們會在後續的鐵安演習裡面也把這個腳本、劇本納進去，都會進行演練。"],["游委員顥：對，因為我們看到西班牙發生這個情況，同樣的本席要直接再追問的就是在核三停役之後，目前對於臺鐵的供電有受到什麼樣的衝擊嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，核三廠影響的是整體的供電的量能，跟臺鐵沒有直接的關係。"],["游委員顥：沒錯，是整體全國的供電，這個我清楚，但是因為……"],["陳部長世凱：目前我們看到臺鐵那邊的備載容量其實每一天都至少有百分之十幾以上，所以看起來供電的狀況還可以，而且我所了解核三廠目前的供電量占整體的供電量好像比例沒有很高，所以臺鐵那邊調度上應該沒有問題。"],["游委員顥：所以它會提高到是全國整體供電的風險，是全國整體供電的一個情況。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["游委員顥：所以這個部分來講同樣地也創造了……因為像西班牙這樣子無預警的電網失衡，其實就有可能發生任何突發狀況，如果現在臺鐵的備援電力是4個小時，這樣子的話在號誌部分或是閘門、閘道部分也同樣是4個小時內有這樣子的供電措施嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們場站部分不斷電的鋪設都是這個樣子。"],["游委員顥：所以換個角度講，假如目前遇到大停電或是天災人禍，臺鐵還能夠營運，正常的話除了發電機之外大概就只剩下4個小時嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：場站的部分，以路線來講，如果真的整體停電路線上沒有電，當然車子會無法運行。"],["游委員顥：疏散的這種方案多久演練一次？"],["陳部長世凱：疏散是不是3個月你們都會做？"],["馮總經理輝昇：對，我們每一季都會有。"],["陳部長世凱：每一季都會有演練。"],["游委員顥：是以單點還是區域抑或是整體全國？"],["馮總經理輝昇：要看腳本，我們有以場站為主，然後也有配合震災或是風災的區域聯合演練，都會。"],["游委員顥：好，沒關係，要防範未然，因為時間有限，如果發生大停電或是天災人禍的時候，全國的交通運輸還是要由部長這邊來主政，以4個小時的備援電力來講，後面用發電機，如果沒有電的情況之下，等於鐵路系統就已經是癱瘓了，這樣子的話不管是天災或是戰時，在交通以及人員的疏散上就是一個很大的挑戰。同樣的在各種的演習演練，以前所沿用的演練計畫相信都是比較區塊的，但是本席還是希望在這個集會討論之後，能夠把各種演練的可能性或是包括劇本、腳本的部分也能夠放大，因為我們看到西班牙全國大停電，未來臺灣如果全國大停電，這樣子影響的……先不管產業上受到的衝擊，其實民眾在交通上面的疏散跟安全就已經是一大挑戰，我們要防範未然，也希望部長這邊能夠責成相關單位做更完善的演練。"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["游委員顥：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝游顥委員。","羅廷瑋委員、羅廷瑋委員，羅廷瑋委員不在。","現在請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160836","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160836","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369c65b3349fcc0329f385a4fd0f0fffa493679622006e3328b56ee6e04b9c1f51b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"13:43:48 - 13:49:25","影片長度":"00:05:37","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T13:43:48+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T13:49:25+08:00","duration":337,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.10471875,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.028468750000002,"end":17.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.24346875,"end":18.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.64409375,"end":20.550968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.875968750000002,"end":20.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.58471875,"end":20.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.17534375,"end":24.145343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.28909375,"end":23.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.43221875,"end":25.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.567218750000002,"end":24.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.617843750000002,"end":24.668468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.27596875,"end":26.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.10284375,"end":26.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.667843750000003,"end":29.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.950343750000002,"end":30.794093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.418468750000002,"end":33.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.05096875,"end":41.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.74596875,"end":42.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.10034375,"end":48.360968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.51284375,"end":51.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.17096875,"end":49.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.47471875,"end":49.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.96409375,"end":50.048468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.70221875,"end":92.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.97846875,"end":92.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.99534375,"end":93.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.24846875,"end":95.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.50534375000001,"end":98.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.20971875000001,"end":99.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.79596875,"end":103.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.79534375,"end":105.12846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.21284375,"end":115.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.70909375000001,"end":119.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.37096875,"end":122.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.25221875000001,"end":124.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.29409375,"end":134.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.53721875000002,"end":136.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.00971875000002,"end":138.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.50721875000002,"end":153.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.59409375,"end":150.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.81284375,"end":189.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.31346875,"end":193.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.89096875,"end":197.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.68346875,"end":198.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.34159375000002,"end":200.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.56034375000002,"end":208.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.97721875000002,"end":218.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.03909375,"end":218.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.66346875000002,"end":219.89534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.45659375000002,"end":219.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.49034375000002,"end":231.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.57284375,"end":234.17159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.35721875000002,"end":236.33159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.33596875,"end":242.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.22096875000003,"end":246.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.91221875000002,"end":248.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.16096875000002,"end":249.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.47721875000002,"end":258.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.52784375000002,"end":250.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":250.72596875000002,"end":250.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.65721875,"end":280.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.96596875,"end":281.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.03346875,"end":281.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.87721875,"end":282.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.87721875,"end":283.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":282.75471875,"end":282.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.19346875,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.96971875,"end":284.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.03721875,"end":284.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.96534375000005,"end":285.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":285.03284375000004,"end":300.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.21784375000004,"end":289.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.63534375,"end":290.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.15284375000005,"end":312.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.16971875,"end":300.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":312.03284375000004,"end":323.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":324.26721875000004,"end":334.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.91221875,"end":328.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.25784375,"end":331.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.40909375,"end":336.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":335.43846875,"end":336.13034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":14.147,"end":33.07,"text":"辛苦我們請陳部長好交通部陳部長民航局何局長好民航局何局長鐵道局陳副局長中華航空好高董事長委員好部長辛苦先感謝你幾樣事情第一個"},{"start":34.113,"end":47.67,"text":"高鐵接高雄捷運連通道那鐵道局這邊已經在高鐵公司這邊已經在評估從原本的6加7個月那部長指示之後縮短為5加5個月在這邊很感謝你請殺該殺可能會是一筆費用"},{"start":51.855,"end":80.581,"text":"但是我覺得對於高雄市民的整個需求來講的話非常的需要這個也請交通部繼續努力第二個感謝你第二件事情就是有關於小港機場爭取雙走道飛機來高雄小港機場的事這是我布局的第一步啦那也感謝部長也很快的這樣在半年內做好了這樣的調度那確實華航也把飛機調來了我的布局第二步是什麼呢其實雙走道飛機現在"},{"start":82.001,"end":101.014,"text":"過去都要777或者是380才可以飛歐美澳那現在的350跟787都可以飛歐美澳結果華航聽你的話聽一半他調來高雄調什麼來 董事長你調哪一架飛機來高雄"},{"start":103.923,"end":124.621,"text":"目前是掉330來我給你看一下,這個是最新的澳洲剛放復活節,然後他們有一個廉價剛好有一個行程,來跟我分享這個行程的感受他從高雄飛大阪"},{"start":126.324,"end":133.074,"text":"飛A330他窗戶就這樣刮 刮得很厲害我就不得不好奇去查了一下這台A330的機鈴多久"},{"start":137.656,"end":155.306,"text":"應該是19年左右對,快20年那我也跟你查了,整個華航機隊平均的機齡大概也不會到20年所以部長你聽懂我在講什麼嗎?華航配合啦,但是掉了一台老的來第二個,A350現在平均機齡7年"},{"start":156.627,"end":178.962,"text":"大部分都還是放在桃園跟這個松山所以我們還是在爭取我布局的第二步當部長你又政策指示下來之後那華航把A350調來之後華航高雄就可以開始安排歐美澳了就是剛邱志偉委員那麼生氣民航局都沒有好好的做這些政策的督導"},{"start":179.642,"end":200.234,"text":"沒有好好的把高雄小港機場整個南部的旅客的福利放在前面的時候所以難怪人家那麼生氣那董事長有沒有看到新聞說現在美國有一些波音中國訂的波音中國不交機有有沒有評估要買"},{"start":203.595,"end":217.428,"text":"部長你認為華航可不可以來研議一下針對美國採購波音科技報告委員這個是比較專業的問題但是華航確實是可以評估看看但我所知道華航目前也有一些交機的計畫對不對"},{"start":218.909,"end":234.172,"text":"基本上沒有防焦機計畫那些我知道那我是說你現在看到中美這個關稅貿易戰在即嘛那已經有這個波音客機可能本來要別人的訂單我們有沒有考慮評估可以先拿過來目前那個737 MAX是我們不要的"},{"start":234.932,"end":258.657,"text":"737我們不要,那有沒有787?那有787我們有掌握,大概有11架,可是到目前為止它的交期都還沒有定出來好,如果中國有棄單,我是鼓勵華航趕快評估把787也買過來所以我們都有在追我們來追蹤,如果那個機型是我們要的,然後剛好有可以交機交給我們,我們當然就來爭取如果我們交機的時程可以往前拉,那當然是好事好,謝謝"},{"start":259.417,"end":282.688,"text":"那因為時間有限最後我針對這個男子的台鐵立體化這邊來做一個詢問那交通部的可行性研究原本是在今年必須要出來那是不是遇到什麼狀況是不是台積電是不是要增加對台積電的高雄廠的衝擊評估大概什麼時候會把這個可行性評估出來報告委員這個可行性研究應該是高雄市政府"},{"start":283.368,"end":311.819,"text":"是高雄市政府在辦高雄市政府現在針對台積電他可能我們要多設一個廠多設一個台鐵的站在台積電的廠區旁邊那所以這一個評估會稍後在今年底出來那我們會繼續來跟交通部來爭取我們一定會來支持啦就是說要增加這個站他可以放到他的可行性評估裡面可以納進來然後我們一起來討論交通部來協助如果有這個需求我們當然就朝這個方向下去努力"},{"start":312.159,"end":334.659,"text":"最後我們最緊張的其實還是高雄的捷運紫縣這個捷運紫縣其實目前雖然已經在交通部那我們希望在之後的這個之後的這些可能性評估已經出來那之後綜合規劃等等的我們還是要加緊速度持續跟鐵道局 持續跟交通部來做這些聯繫好 這個我們來努力 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1316,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（13時43分）辛苦了！請陳部長。"],["主席：好，請陳部長。"],["李委員柏毅：請民航局何局長。"],["主席：請民航局何局長。"],["李委員柏毅：請鐵道局。"],["主席：請鐵道局陳副局長。"],["李委員柏毅：還有請中華航空。"],["主席：高董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：部長辛苦了！先感謝你幾樣事情，第一個是高鐵接高雄捷運連通道，鐵道局、高鐵公司這邊已經在評估。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員柏毅：從原本的6+7個月，在部長指示之後縮短為5+5個月，在這邊先感謝你。穿著衣衫改衣衫可能會是一筆費用，但是我覺得對於高雄市民的整個需求來講非常需要，這個也請交通部繼續努力。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["李委員柏毅：第二個，感謝你第二件事情，就是有關於爭取雙走道飛機來高雄小港機場的事，這是我布局的第一步，也感謝部長很快地在半年內做好了這樣的調度，確實華航也把飛機調來了。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員柏毅：我的布局第二步是什麼呢？其實雙走道飛機過去都要777或者是380才可以飛歐、美、澳，現在的350跟787都可以飛歐、美、澳。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["李委員柏毅：結果華航聽你的話聽一半，它調來高雄的是什麼？來，董事長，你是調哪一架飛機來高雄？"],["高董事長星潢：目前是調330。"],["李委員柏毅：330齁，來，我給你看一下，這個是最新的，澳洲剛放復活節，他們有一個連假，剛好有一個行程來跟我分享這個行程的感受，他從高雄飛大阪是飛A330，窗戶就像這樣，刮得很厲害。我就不得不好奇去查了一下，這台A330的機齡多久？董事長。"],["高董事長星潢：應該是19年左右。"],["李委員柏毅：對，快20年了，我也跟你查了，整個華航機隊平均的機齡大概也不會到20年啦，部長你聽懂我在講什麼嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：了解。"],["李委員柏毅：華航配合，但是調了一台老的來啦！第二個，A350現在平均機齡7年，大部分都還是放在桃園跟松山，所以我們還是在爭取。我布局的第二步，當部長你又政策指示下來之後，華航把A350調來之後，華航就可以開始安排高雄飛歐、美、澳了，這就是剛邱志偉委員之所以那麼生氣，民航局都沒有好好做這些政策的督導、沒有好好把高雄小港機場整個南部旅客的福利放在前面，所以難怪人家那麼生氣。董事長，有沒有看到新聞說現在美國有一些波音……中國訂的波音中國不交機？"],["高董事長星潢：有。"],["李委員柏毅：華航有沒有評估要買？"],["高董事長星潢：我們都有在追這個事情。"],["李委員柏毅：部長你認為華航可不可以研議一下針對美國採購波音客機？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個是比較專業的問題，但是華航確實是可以評估看看，但我所知道華航目前也有一些交機的計畫，對不對？"],["高董事長星潢：基本上……"],["李委員柏毅：沒有，華航交機計畫那些我知道，我是說你現在看到中美關稅貿易戰在即嘛，已經有波音客機，可能本來是別人的訂單，我們有沒有考慮評估可以先拿過來？"],["高董事長星潢：目前那個737 MAX是我們不要的。"],["李委員柏毅：737我們不要？"],["高董事長星潢：大部分是這個。"],["李委員柏毅：那有沒有787？"],["高董事長星潢：有787，我們有掌握大概有11架，可是到目前為止它的交期都還沒有訂出來。"],["李委員柏毅：如果中國有棄單，我是鼓勵華航趕快評估把787也買過來。"],["高董事長星潢：所以我們都有在追蹤。"],["李委員柏毅：部長，這個也可以做一下政策的提示。"],["陳部長世凱：我們來追蹤，如果那個機型是我們要的，然後剛好可以交機給我們，我們當然就來爭取。"],["李委員柏毅：對。"],["陳部長世凱：如果我們交機的時程可以往前拉，那當然是好事。"],["李委員柏毅：好，謝謝。因為時間有限，最後我針對楠梓的鐵路立體化來做一個詢問，交通部的可行性研究原本是在今年必須要出來，是不是遇到什麼狀況？是不是要增加對台積電高雄廠的衝擊評估？大概什麼時候會把這個可行性評估提出來？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個可行性研究應該是高雄市政府在辦。"],["李委員柏毅：高雄市政府現在針對台積電，可能我們要多設一個臺鐵的站在台積電的廠區旁邊，所以這個評估會在今年底出來，我們會繼續來跟交通部爭取。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們一定會支持，就是要增加這個站可以放到它的可行性評估裡面，可以納進來，然後我們一起來討論，交通部來協助，如果有這個需求我們當然就朝這個方向下去努力。"],["李委員柏毅：最後我們最緊張的其實還是高雄的捷運紫線，這個捷運紫線目前雖然已經在交通部，可行性評估已經出來，我們希望在之後的這些綜合規劃等等的還是要加緊速度。"],["陳部長世凱：對，這個我們會加速。"],["李委員柏毅：鐵道局要持續跟交通部來做這些聯繫。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們來努力。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝，部長辛苦了！"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李柏毅委員。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","現在請游顥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160835","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160835","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369156d98179da774fe385a4fd0f0fffa493679622006e3328b1bd147f165fa27cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"13:37:56 - 13:43:38","影片長度":"00:05:42","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T13:37:56+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T13:43:38+08:00","duration":342,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.74721875,"end":9.059093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.56534375,"end":11.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.49221875,"end":20.820968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.12909375,"end":20.297843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.972843750000003,"end":21.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.090968750000002,"end":24.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.719093750000003,"end":27.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.80721875,"end":32.009093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.78534375,"end":34.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.42221875,"end":38.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.43409375,"end":42.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.53909375,"end":46.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.06159375,"end":51.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.24659375,"end":54.891593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.414718750000006,"end":56.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.51159375,"end":63.666593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.05471875,"end":66.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.15971875000001,"end":67.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.69971875,"end":69.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.82159375,"end":72.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.86346875000001,"end":74.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.77034375000001,"end":77.95971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.41534375,"end":86.14409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.81909375000001,"end":91.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.24034375000001,"end":95.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.52659375,"end":98.17596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.61096875000001,"end":95.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.56409375000001,"end":99.39096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.13346875,"end":102.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.39471875000001,"end":104.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.06096875,"end":106.22534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.71034375,"end":110.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.89971875,"end":112.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.45221875,"end":113.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.47721875,"end":116.53596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.39659375000001,"end":119.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.11346875000001,"end":124.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.12534375000001,"end":126.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.16721875,"end":128.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.52971875,"end":130.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.17096875000001,"end":130.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.02721875,"end":132.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.93409375000002,"end":134.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.09846875,"end":143.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.97471875000002,"end":148.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.69971875000002,"end":160.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.73159375,"end":161.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.21659375000002,"end":163.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.10659375,"end":165.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.96284375000002,"end":169.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.29971875,"end":172.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.21909375,"end":175.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.17221875,"end":178.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.90159375000002,"end":180.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.03221875,"end":182.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.71971875,"end":183.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.00221875000003,"end":185.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.73596875,"end":188.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.40221875,"end":193.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.67159375,"end":194.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.49846875,"end":195.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.00034375,"end":200.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.97846875000002,"end":204.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.53909375,"end":206.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.28971875000002,"end":208.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.33159375000002,"end":210.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.12034375000002,"end":211.42409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.23409375,"end":213.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.61346875,"end":217.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.24159375000002,"end":219.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.16534375,"end":221.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.61659375000002,"end":222.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.38846875000002,"end":226.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.33721875,"end":232.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.77909375000002,"end":235.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.48346875000001,"end":239.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.85846875000001,"end":240.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.93846875000003,"end":242.65971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.53721875000002,"end":245.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.01346875000002,"end":248.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.52784375000002,"end":252.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.72971875000002,"end":254.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.82659375000003,"end":257.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.37034375,"end":259.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.78346875,"end":261.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.33596875,"end":262.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.51721875000004,"end":265.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.18346875000003,"end":267.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.03971875,"end":270.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.97159375,"end":272.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.35534375000003,"end":276.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.25346875,"end":279.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.76346875,"end":282.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.96971875,"end":285.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.02409375,"end":288.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.37409375000004,"end":289.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.63971875000004,"end":291.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.25534375,"end":292.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.35221875,"end":294.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.79909375,"end":300.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.31721875,"end":301.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.70096875,"end":303.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.01721875000004,"end":305.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.83971875000003,"end":308.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.67471875,"end":311.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.04971875,"end":313.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.00721875,"end":314.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.32346875,"end":316.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.58471875000004,"end":320.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.62221875,"end":321.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.68534375,"end":324.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.85346875000005,"end":326.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.67596875000004,"end":332.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.71784375000004,"end":330.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.87346875000003,"end":334.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.57346875,"end":338.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.61096875000004,"end":342.96471875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.631,"end":29.329,"text":"好 交通部陳部長部長辛苦了委員好這個今天的主題這個鐵路安全事件這個部分就台鐵而言這個113年1月到"},{"start":32.85,"end":54.183,"text":"今年的3月台鐵共發生了5件重大的行車事故52件一般的行車事故1173件的異常事件這個部分是相當高的一個比例這個件數是相當高 尤其是現在"},{"start":56.585,"end":76.643,"text":"這個科技這麼發達,然後這個應該是更為精進才對但是卻發生,當然有一部分是相關因為這個這個地點的關係那我們看這個以今年來講啊這個一到三月就一件"},{"start":78.933,"end":104.332,"text":"這跟去年的事件這比例算也算多了一般行車事故也是一樣尤其是異常事件三個月就212件所以是相當高是需要去加強的去檢討那我們看這個就往花蓮台東的來看基本上是土石流這是這個"},{"start":108.325,"end":130.731,"text":"這個整個地形地理的關係所以這個部分講到這個我們要坐火車要去花蓮台東不管是從台北出發或是從台南高雄出發確實都是有除了票價之外這些這種因為"},{"start":135.185,"end":159.869,"text":"地形地的關係就會產生這個還好有時候這個有一次是沒有發生任何的傷亡這個是這是一個我們要特別的所以鐵路法事實上都有規定鐵道局應該要負責什麼然後台鐵公司應該要負責什麼然後這些檢討去精進去改變"},{"start":164.65,"end":192.952,"text":"這個部分 這個要去加油啦 好不好好 我們還是把重點放在後面大家現在花蓮台東的鄉親還是關心這個六月馬上要到啦馬上明天就五月了呢這個我們已經提了很多次不只是我 好幾位委員都提了"},{"start":194.613,"end":221.853,"text":"像台北到花蓮調漲32.51%相當高高雄到台東調漲34.41%因為沒有其他期待尤其是尤其是這個有了蘇花改還沒有蘇花安的情況之下就靠這個火車"},{"start":223.442,"end":252.481,"text":"然後部長也很清楚嘛 從台中這個中橫也是 對不對還沒通嘛 對不對就只好往花蓮 往台北啦不是往台北 就是往高雄啦是這樣的一個情形 所以這個因為剛才又提到系統既然有系統的問題 更要早一點決定啊"},{"start":253.749,"end":282.555,"text":"對不對更要早一點決定才不會影響到系統所以這個部分部長這個交給台鐵公司去處理是不對的我建議就是要由交通部來對不對也涉及到他營運的成本各方面他當然他當然是很捨不得對不對這是當然的嘛"},{"start":284.248,"end":299.878,"text":"所以還是要有交通部嘛交通部來處理那交通部沒有別的方式嘛怎麼樣去找裁員嘛沒有別的方式就怎麼樣去裁員不是你自己編列預算補貼就是從"},{"start":304.376,"end":326.659,"text":"我們建議的比照這個離島建設基金從花東基金來去補貼方向給你都有啦就是去跟國發會談啊跟地方政府談啊因為有一部分地方政府可以支持的花東基金因為他有分配嘛部長可以嗎"},{"start":327.888,"end":341.698,"text":"可以 我們也會找國發會一起來談對 要盡快談這個是對於台鐵來說是最有幫助的所以這個部分要趕快去處理 好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1301,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（13時37分）主席、各位委員，有請部長。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長辛苦了。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：今天的主題是鐵路安全事件這個部分，就臺鐵而言，113年1月到今年的3月，臺鐵共發生了5件重大的行車事故、52件一般的行車事故、1,173件異常事件。這個部分是相當高的一個比例，這個件數相當高，尤其是現在的科技這麼發達，應該是更為精進才對。當然有一部分是因為地點的關係，以今年來講，1到3月就有一件重大行車事故，跟去年的事件相較，這個比例也算多了。還有，一般行車事故也是一樣，尤其是異常事件，3個月就有212件，所以是相當高的，需要加強檢討。","我們往花蓮、臺東的部分來看，基本上是土石流的問題，這是整個地形地理的關係。講到這個，當我們要坐火車去花蓮、臺東，不管是從臺北出發或是從臺南、高雄出發確實都是有，除了票價之外，因為地形地貌的關係就會造成這個，還好有一次沒有發生任何的傷亡，這個是我們要特別注意的。所以鐵路法事實上都有規定，鐵道局應該要負責什麼、臺鐵公司應該要負責什麼，然後就這些去檢討、去精進、去改變，這個部分要去加油，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們還是把重點放在後面，現在花蓮、臺東的鄉親大家還是關心這個，6月馬上要到了，明天就是5月了，這個我們已經提了很多次，不只是我，好幾位委員都提了，像臺北到花蓮票價調漲32.51%，相當高啊！高雄到臺東調漲34.41%，因為沒有其他取代，尤其是有了蘇花改但還沒有蘇花安的情況之下就靠火車，部長你很清楚嘛，從臺中中橫也是還沒通嘛，對不對？只好往臺北了，不是往臺北就是往高雄，是這樣的一個情形，所以這個……因為剛才又提到系統，既然有系統的問題更要早一點決定，對不對？更要早一點決定才不會影響到系統，所以部長，這個部分交給臺鐵公司去處理是不對的，我建議就是要由交通部來處理，對不對？涉及到它的營運成本各方面，它當然是很捨不得啊，對不對？這是當然的嘛，所以還是要由交通部來處理，交通部沒有別的方式嘛，就是怎麼樣去找財源，沒有別的方式，就是怎麼樣去找財源，不是你自己編列預算補貼就是從我們建議的比照離島建設基金從花東基金來補貼，方向都有給你了啊，就是去跟國發會談、跟地方政府談啊，因為有一部分是地方政府可以支持的花東基金，因為它有分配，部長可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：可以，我們也會找國發會一起來談這個問題。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，要儘快談，這個對於臺鐵來說是最有幫助的，也不用……所以這個部分要趕快去處理，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。","現在請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160834","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160834","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369d75c594d482fc1ef385a4fd0f0fffa493679622006e3328b5195ddf4f073bf875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"13:28:14 - 13:37:40","影片長度":"00:09:26","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T13:28:14+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T13:37:40+08:00","duration":566,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.1359687500000004,"end":4.654718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.177843750000001,"end":6.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.45534375,"end":11.927843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.19784375,"end":13.615343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.020343750000002,"end":16.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.04096875,"end":21.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.06971875,"end":38.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.13034375,"end":40.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.27346875,"end":48.242843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.74909375,"end":50.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.17909375,"end":61.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.62471875000001,"end":68.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.94846875,"end":74.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.87159375,"end":82.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.97159375000001,"end":82.98846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.10659375,"end":83.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.18659375,"end":89.55284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.00846875,"end":98.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.17159375,"end":102.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.68159375,"end":107.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.47409375000001,"end":108.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.70596875000001,"end":109.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.87034375,"end":110.61284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.88284375,"end":112.68846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.07659375,"end":114.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.03409375000001,"end":117.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.80159375000001,"end":120.72096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.09221875,"end":126.17159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.23909375000001,"end":127.25159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.58909375,"end":130.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.66034375,"end":132.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.68534375000002,"end":136.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.70159375,"end":142.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.86096875,"end":144.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.76784375,"end":147.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.65346875,"end":149.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.04971875,"end":152.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.29409375,"end":153.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.09971875000002,"end":155.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.00659375,"end":156.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.05721875,"end":157.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.21721875,"end":162.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.14471875,"end":164.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.69721875000002,"end":169.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.92846875,"end":171.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.24034375000002,"end":173.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.47221875000002,"end":179.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.88471875000002,"end":182.34846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.70284375,"end":183.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.86721875,"end":186.60096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.90034375000002,"end":189.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.09409375,"end":190.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.92096875000001,"end":192.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.29159375,"end":196.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.72159375,"end":201.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.52721875,"end":199.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.26534375,"end":208.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.96034375000002,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.02346875,"end":211.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.66471875000002,"end":219.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.99659375000002,"end":221.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.57034375,"end":224.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.34221875,"end":224.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.77221875,"end":228.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.65346875,"end":233.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.08784375000002,"end":230.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.41221875000002,"end":234.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.72846875000002,"end":244.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.12409375000001,"end":241.81596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.11971875,"end":242.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.30096875,"end":248.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.86971875,"end":260.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.62346875000003,"end":264.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.40784375000004,"end":265.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.04846875000004,"end":267.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.03971875,"end":274.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.95846875,"end":280.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.05971875,"end":275.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.86471875,"end":283.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.13846875,"end":284.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.03284375000004,"end":288.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.94784375,"end":290.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.93909375000004,"end":291.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.25534375,"end":293.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.07784375,"end":296.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.41909375,"end":303.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.33784375000005,"end":306.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.88596875,"end":308.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.09659375,"end":313.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.78784375000004,"end":314.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.25596875,"end":316.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.23034375000003,"end":318.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.03596875,"end":321.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.36471875,"end":322.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.35596875000005,"end":333.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.51471875000004,"end":335.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.24846875000003,"end":337.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.73346875000004,"end":338.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.84721875,"end":339.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.43346875000003,"end":342.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.18409375000005,"end":344.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.82096875,"end":346.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.81221875,"end":347.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.01034375,"end":348.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.95534375,"end":350.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.23346875000004,"end":353.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.30909375000005,"end":355.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.13159375000004,"end":360.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.91971875,"end":362.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.86034375,"end":363.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.54784375,"end":365.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.11721875,"end":368.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.08721875000003,"end":371.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.17971875,"end":372.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.54659375,"end":377.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.57534375,"end":383.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.19034375,"end":386.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.83971875000003,"end":390.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.19346875,"end":393.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.09596875,"end":394.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.07471875000005,"end":396.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.98159375,"end":398.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.07409375000003,"end":406.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.27971875000003,"end":411.81471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.13534375,"end":415.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.74659375000005,"end":417.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.34971875,"end":418.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.81784375,"end":422.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.73284375000003,"end":425.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.98971875,"end":429.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.21284375000005,"end":430.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.02284375000005,"end":433.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.03096875,"end":447.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.75846875,"end":455.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.74034375,"end":455.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.75721875000005,"end":455.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.95971875000004,"end":455.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.24659375000005,"end":466.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.82784375000006,"end":463.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.47721875,"end":476.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.58096875,"end":482.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.84159375,"end":492.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.32534375000006,"end":493.59096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.96221875000003,"end":494.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.92409375000005,"end":507.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.90096875000006,"end":511.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.32659375000003,"end":520.8103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.97909375,"end":529.5009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.9228437500001,"end":535.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":535.81221875,"end":538.8159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.20034375,"end":539.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.84534375,"end":542.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.10221875,"end":554.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":545.92034375,"end":546.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.17346875,"end":546.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.45596875,"end":549.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.17221875,"end":554.5772187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.59409375,"end":554.8303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.6572187500001,"end":558.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.7959687499999,"end":564.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.33096875,"end":564.3647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.3647187500001,"end":565.5459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.71909375,"end":564.75284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.194,"end":5.829,"text":"主席 南鄉保庭好 陳部長"},{"start":12.139,"end":26.003,"text":"董事長你好 先生好 董事長在這裡我要延續之前跟你們談到的 咖啡汁開車站的問題因為我覺得長久以來 北省如果回到什麼問題就是找民意代表 應該找民意代表是越找越方便 不是越找越沒方便這樣就笑死人了"},{"start":39.167,"end":43.349,"text":"在這個過程當中,我那時候跟你們討論的時候你們也說,我們要找一個會館找一個會館的時候,我們覺得開會,要不然會館也要去看開會,另外開會所以在這個過程當中,也有提出你們的意見你們說,我也說,我們是應該給這個事大,或是身心沒方便的人"},{"start":68.899,"end":70.42,"text":"會方便才對 不是越沒方便那天去會館之後聽你們講 經費也有問題啦要做的東西 電算也有問題啦"},{"start":83.237,"end":93.624,"text":"我們應該是要解決問題,不是要做新問題出來不要說他來不及代表定情,太無稀罷了我們在車站,自己車站,我們也要知道看到這裡是大街的北市坐車回來,有後站要去前站,前站要去後站的方便,這樣我們"},{"start":109.935,"end":116.119,"text":"台鐵跟探險跟中央,你們都沒有去想到坐車的人的方便所以在這個過程,我聽出你們說去看治療,讓我的答案是這樣,說實在我跟你們說,我們台鐵跟高鐵,沒怪沒面子啦"},{"start":132.748,"end":134.55,"text":"高鐵是一天一天,時間也不慢,每天要給班次,如果年齡這樣的時候,他就發現說,這站有人坐,我們就要給班次,又要給坐"},{"start":147.705,"end":149.246,"text":"結果我們台鐵的,我覺得,我的要求應該是沒有過分的,北京府應該剛才,我們的審判人員,也來報告這個問題,你們認為,他說四月,要來改變這個天橋的鐵嘛,所以這個電梯沒辦法"},{"start":173.702,"end":173.922,"text":"報告 報告委員"},{"start":197.796,"end":205.781,"text":"你講的這個部分,對農場的便利來說很重要所以這個部分,當然我們的補貼立場,對是要做但是安全我們也要考量當然,我們一定要安全,要不然我們要有負責的態度給官公家或是在外地要回家的人"},{"start":220.071,"end":228.958,"text":"安全 沒錯 這安全說實在你看 像三位你也知道 安全的重要性我直接說結論啦 一定有很多問題但是 交通不好好 還是 要去克服啊交通不好好 還是代替好 我們做回來解決問題重點是要讓民眾更安全 更便利的交通啦這個部分我們要來做 你放心 我覺得說這個聽出來 你有經過頭的人啦"},{"start":248.934,"end":252.316,"text":"因為我們做行為不能一直說這不能做 這不能做 為了安全我阿彌陀佛也知道 為了安全 這安全一定要顧到我們來解決問題 解決問題是最重要的 沒錯 要解決"},{"start":268.186,"end":276.093,"text":"不用聽你們的解釋我是要有問題要怎麼去解決才有問題再來補充 我也說聽到你的解釋這樣我可以接受 但是希望要趕緊做再來剛才我說過去的問題在長久以來過去的13座"},{"start":294.308,"end":312.494,"text":"可以讓人說合適也好在這個過程當中我也說有需要替我們南部、我們嘉義來撐出我們的班次在這個過程當中嘉義要來到台中、要來到台北搭直達車,整天登陸到一半而已"},{"start":319.153,"end":332.897,"text":"所以在這個規定當中,我也願意說,可以讓大家都相遇,有這個平民的溝通的時候,可以有那些直達車在家裡泰步"},{"start":336.618,"end":347.301,"text":"來使用啦 補充 嘉義市在退步多個體的 要來嘉義嘉義要來台北 跟一班直達車六點五十四分的在這裏也補充 跟我們的當事長可以願意讓人家補 更方便要來台北找親戚也好 要來台北"},{"start":364.625,"end":368.309,"text":"看背後,可以讓他們有直達車來溝通、來坐,你認為"},{"start":372.665,"end":383.334,"text":"這可不可以改善一下來補充補充議員 這個補充我來拜託國體公司來研究一下 看班次怎麼調整來比較方便因為補充跟當事人在這裡 我也替我們教育的人一個拜託跟要求就是說等過以來 差不多在"},{"start":399.127,"end":405.573,"text":"台南車也好 嘉義車也好 大家也知道那一幫直達車就是六點五十七分而已所以在這個過程很階段的 能夠在划動行李偉李鑽營李偉的情緒到現在都沒有改變我們也希望能夠給那一幫因為溝通對每一個做生意也好"},{"start":426.05,"end":446.525,"text":"要上班也好 都非常重要董事長你可能要回答一下來 董事長講一下是 委員 跟委員報告齁 重點是這地鐵車齁是 很好啦但是我們經過過去的研究齁 咱假期齁 要去來台北齁 要去北上的齁 最要緊是班族比較多齁 啊所以咧 我們以前也 以前也有做過假期後的地鐵車 但是我們發現咧 那個地鐵車去齁"},{"start":455.765,"end":457.747,"text":"在這個過程 我就是想當事長拜託說"},{"start":476.647,"end":480.472,"text":"我們有時候不要想到利益,不要想到錢錢,來方便自己的人,要坐車的人,可以給一架直達車出來我相信你們如果憂心要做,這沒困難啦,因為"},{"start":495.009,"end":502.451,"text":"這有這個需要 我知道啊 有的要去通房 要去新店 通房要去機場嘛新店有時候要去辦公室走路 我現在的意思是說可以有多一百人出來 加二九台幣的像六點五十七這樣 六點五十七 因為你都坐摸摸嘛"},{"start":519.136,"end":521.797,"text":"所以你們都不會改嘛現在我就是說 我們不要想說 啊 多多少少是不是每六星期有關公家 有要來台北也好 要來哪裡也好可以多一百萬來做這樣啦我們來研議看看 因為我覺得說這個班次 因為我知道國體的"},{"start":543.223,"end":549.048,"text":"一分 兩分 又不一樣啦這是做 這是會溝通啦希望我們補充跟當事長來研議一下因為 我覺得這個要求長久以來對自己 大家百姓的建築 和期待啦好 拜託"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1268,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（13時28分）主席，請部長。"],["主席：好，請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：部長你好，辛苦了。部長，我要延續之前跟你們探討的嘉義市火車站的問題，因為我覺得長久以來，百姓如果遇到什麼問題就是找民意代表。找民意代表陳情，應該是越找民代，百姓的生活就越方便，不是越找越不方便，這樣就笑死人了。在這個過程當中，我跟你們討論的時候，你們說要找一個時間去會勘。我們在找時間會勘的同時，也覺得要召開會議，不但要會勘，也要開會。所以在這個過程當中，你們也有提出意見，我們都認為應該給這些長輩或身心比較不方便的人方便才對，而不是越不方便。","那天去會勘之後，聽到你們說經費有問題，電線也有問題。部長，我們應該是要解決問題，不是要製造問題。不要說他們來找民意代表陳情，最起碼我們也應該知道，在嘉義車站看到這些長輩和百姓搭車回來，有人從後站去前站，也有人從前站去後站，要讓他們方便，臺鐵才會賺錢，這樣才對啊！你們都沒考慮到搭車的人的方便，所以在這個過程中，當我聽到你們勘察之後給我的答案是這樣的時候，說實在的，難怪臺鐵跟高鐵沒得比。高鐵每天的車速不慢，還每天要增加班次，逢年過節時就趕快說這站有人搭乘，我們要加開班次，但我們的臺鐵呢？部長，我覺得我的要求應該是不過分啦！","剛剛我們的承辦人員也有來報告這個問題，他說七月這座天橋會拆，所以這個電梯沒辦法使用。我們應該要讓百姓更方便，而不是更不方便。你說七月拆除的時候，帶著行李來嘉義旅遊，實在是不方便，部長，這樣對嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，你講的這個部分，對民眾的便利來說很重要，所以這個部分，當然我們部的立場絕對是要做，但是安全我們也要考量。"],["王委員美惠：當然，一定要安全，不過我們要有負責的態度，讓觀光客或是在外地要回來的人安全。"],["陳部長世凱：委員說得很正確……"],["王委員美惠：部長，關於安全的部分，說實在，你看連三歲的孩子也知道安全的重要性。"],["陳部長世凱：我直接說結論啦！中間一定有很多問題，但是……"],["王委員美惠：要去克服啊！"],["陳部長世凱：不論是交通部還是臺鐵，我們一起來解決問題，重點是要讓民眾有更安全、更便利的交通，這個部分我們會來處理，請委員放心。"],["王委員美惠：我覺得由此聽得出來你是有擔當的人，因為我們在做事時，不能一直說為了安全這不能做、那不能做。我王美惠也知道是為了安全，安全的部分一定要做好。"],["陳部長世凱：過程中都會遇到問題，讓我們來解決問題，把事情做好。"],["王委員美惠：解決問題是最重要的，我們不是要聽你們解釋，而是怎麼去解決問題才是重要的。再來，我也聽到部長的解釋，我可以接受，但是希望你們要趕快做。剛才我說到高鐵的問題，長久以來，高鐵的服務很好，我也說有需要替南部、替我們的嘉義來爭取班次。在這個過程當中，從嘉義到臺中，再到臺北，一整天那麼長的時間，只有一班直達車而已，所以我也希望有便民的交通時，嘉義太保可以有那麼多直達車的班次。部長，從嘉義太保搭乘高鐵去臺北，只有6點57分的一班直達車而已。","本席在這裡希望部長跟董事長，可以研議讓南部的交通更方便，不論是來臺北找親戚也好，來臺北看病也好，讓他們有直達車可以搭乘。你們認為這個部分可以改善一下嗎？請部長回答。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分我們來拜託高鐵公司，請他們研究一下班次怎麼調整，讓大家比較方便。"],["王委員美惠：因為部長跟董事長在這裡，我也替我們嘉義的鄉親拜託與要求，就是長久以來，在臺南搭乘也好，在嘉義搭乘也好，大家都知道只有一班直達車，就是6點57分的車次而已。在這個過程中，歷經很多年了，從蔡同榮立委、李俊俋立委的爭取到現在，都沒有改變。我也希望可以增加班次，因為交通對每一個做生意的人或上班族而言，都是非常重要的。"],["陳部長世凱：委員，我請董事長回答一下好嗎？"],["王委員美惠：好，董事長可能要回答一下。"],["鄭董事長光遠：報告委員，當然直達車很好，經過過去的研究，從嘉義去臺北，北上最重要的是班次要比較多，所以我們以前也有從嘉義之後就是直達車，但是我們發現有了直達車之後，增加很多去新竹、桃園的人，所以現在有半直達車……"],["王委員美惠：我知道在4月14日之後有增加17班車，這個過程我知道，我就是要拜託董事長，我們有時候不要只想到利益，不要只想到賺錢，要方便嘉義要坐車的人，可以增加一班直達車。我相信你們如果有心要做，這沒困難啦！因為有這個需要。我知道有的人要去桃園、新竹，要去桃園機場或去新竹上班。我現在的意思是說，可以增加一班嘉義到臺北的車次，就像6點57分的車次一樣。因為6點57分的車都是滿座，所以你們都不會改變。現在我就是說，我們不要認為都是滿座，是不是星期六、星期日有觀光客要來臺北，要來哪裡也好，可以多開一班車啦！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分我們會來研究。"],["王委員美惠：我們來研議看看，因為我知道高鐵一分、兩分都不曾慢過，這是準時的交通工具。"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個部分我們會來研究。"],["王委員美惠：我希望部長跟董事長來研議一下。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["王委員美惠：因為我覺得這個要求，是長久以來嘉義百姓的希望跟期待，拜託！"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王美惠委員。","接下來請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160833","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160833","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423696ea4b623e20eaf90385a4fd0f0fffa493679622006e3328b989ff97b2754fa435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"13:21:01 - 13:27:58","影片長度":"00:06:57","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T13:21:01+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T13:27:58+08:00","duration":417,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.30034375,"end":11.860343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.231593750000002,"end":13.294718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.25221875,"end":15.505343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.22659375,"end":17.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.88034375,"end":34.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.48971875,"end":38.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.48909375,"end":50.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.80784375,"end":58.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.26221875,"end":71.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.81721875000001,"end":79.61346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.88346875,"end":80.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.99721875,"end":111.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.64221875000001,"end":123.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.69096875000001,"end":126.15471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.64409375000001,"end":129.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.20909375,"end":131.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.60534375,"end":133.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.06909375,"end":135.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.68909375,"end":136.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.71846875,"end":137.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.83221875,"end":138.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.76034375,"end":139.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.14409375,"end":140.61659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.73471875,"end":143.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.16034375,"end":145.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.52284375000002,"end":147.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.85596875000002,"end":148.19346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.12159375000002,"end":161.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.94659375,"end":164.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.03471875000002,"end":165.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.81096875,"end":207.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.69471875000002,"end":213.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.87096875,"end":230.52659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.52659375000002,"end":251.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.62034375000002,"end":259.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.45034375,"end":263.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.56846875,"end":262.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.98971875,"end":266.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.39846875,"end":268.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.15346875,"end":286.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.01596875,"end":309.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.60346875000005,"end":305.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.61971875,"end":313.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.97346875,"end":314.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.15909375,"end":321.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.19159375000004,"end":326.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.25846875,"end":338.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.66596875000005,"end":351.13221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.02721875000003,"end":348.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.73159375,"end":354.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.85784375000003,"end":353.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.45221875000004,"end":361.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.72971875,"end":362.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.35409375,"end":365.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.96534375000005,"end":387.37971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.29096875000005,"end":389.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.06284375,"end":391.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.76721875000004,"end":396.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.95221875000004,"end":413.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.97471875,"end":416.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.38784375,"end":416.79284375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.756,"end":17.497,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請陳部長跟台鐵代理的吳董事長好 交通部陳部長還有吳代董事長委員好"},{"start":19.182,"end":37.118,"text":"部長好 董事長好兩位好 針對今天的這個專案報告本席要特別針對我們台鐵的票價調整部分來跟持續的跟專案繼續來溝通我們記得去年0403強震之後我們造成花東交通觀光嚴重的這個衝擊"},{"start":38.579,"end":56.848,"text":"那觀光旅宿業更是一落千丈那後來又接著幾個颱風嘛那造成了花東地區雪上加霜我想本席也不斷地跟我們中央來呼籲一定要看到我們東部人目前的困境那不能在東部人現在這麼辛苦的時候我們又來調漲台鐵的票價"},{"start":59.309,"end":80.021,"text":"那因此本市在去年也跟在立法院兩度的來提案要求我們中央必須在我們東部的整個在還沒有恢復之前要動長這個東部幹線的這個票價那未來台鐵票價合理化的方案也應該考慮到我們花東運輸的特殊性來做調整那"},{"start":81.072,"end":98.74,"text":"提案當時也在我們委員會通過那後來部長去年我們在去年10月份的時候也來承諾說未來春節之前台鐵票價不會漲這部分我們要給予部長肯定那也謝謝部長體恤到東部的特殊情況不過很遺憾強震到現在因為接下來還有颱風的陸續來襲"},{"start":101.141,"end":125.192,"text":"許多花東地區的這個交通跟我們的各個觀光都還在復原當中那現在中央我們核定的台鐵的新票價對東部來講非常的不公平為什麼我這樣講台東到台北的票價那以自強號來說就漲了300塊那這對很多外出的學子北漂的工作的這些人來說年輕人來說都是非常沉重的負擔尤其我們台北到台東的自強號票價"},{"start":126.913,"end":147.966,"text":"幾乎跟台北到高雄是一樣的不過其實必須要講的是說我們西部幹線裡面你有台鐵以外還有高鐵高速公路還有客運我們有很多的選擇那我們台東人除了昂貴的飛機票以外其實大眾運輸就剩下台鐵而已那"},{"start":149.384,"end":164.369,"text":"這個台鐵還可能是因為好雨或大或颱風他就可能會停掉就可能會又停掉那為什麼我們跟西部復旦一樣高額的票價可是沒有相同平等的這個對待這個東部人真的不是二等公民"},{"start":165.12,"end":187.667,"text":"那本期在票調漲之前是多次的透過質詢跟會議我們就要求中央說必須要來動長東部幹線的票價如果說真的要調漲也必須要研擬花東居民的這個專屬的優惠那先前我跟部長還有國發會主委質詢的時候特別提到說我們可以有一個花東基金的部分可以專款專用來補貼那也獲得部長還有國發會主委正面的回應"},{"start":188.948,"end":207.09,"text":"上個禮拜在總質詢的時候也跟我們總院長親自來質詢他也答應本席說會盡快研議花東居民專屬優惠票價的部分不過我們在今天的專案報告裡面有關花東優惠票價的方案只有簡單的幾句話帶過完全沒有具體的期程跟內容"},{"start":207.771,"end":230.06,"text":"那前兩天新聞有說會給予花東加倍的點數優惠那這個我們後面再談我想這個根本就是杯水車薪因此本席要請教部長所謂到底具體的方案是什麼那你能不能在新票價上路之前就實施這個花東的這個優惠票價來減少花東居民的交通負擔"},{"start":230.9,"end":250.935,"text":"我希望的目標也是在6月23號調漲票價的同時花東的整體的優惠方案能夠同時上線那不過這個部分是牽涉到整個系統要改系統的問題那我們希望能夠跟得上所以我們朝這個目標在努力跟委員報告你們具體的方案"},{"start":251.676,"end":265.932,"text":"具體的方案跟委員報告這個還需要給台鐵一段時間來研擬跟研議大概在五月五月五月三十號以前五月三十號以前我會提出方案因為其實本席很 那麼什麼叫點數優惠因為其實"},{"start":269.192,"end":284.983,"text":"部長還有董事長那個很多人其實像我就沒有台鐵的會員那我怎麼樣獲得點數優惠另外還有台中很多長輩其實他也常常在坐火車那長輩他可能連手機都不太會用你要怎麼就要去用這些優惠"},{"start":285.563,"end":309.048,"text":"沒有手機的也可以加入會員這個我們會想辦法啦在整體方案提出來之前所有委員所提到的這些問題我們都會想辦法來解決那還是要鼓勵花東的民眾盡量加入會員因為台鐵的會員其實有蠻多的優惠那那個會員的點數可以直接折換成票價可以折換成票價讓他的票價可以降低"},{"start":310.451,"end":337.191,"text":"部長 我想未來在整個票價調整政策上面真的要給花東的居民一些合理的優惠因為真的交通屬性不一樣我聽到其他的委員在質詢的時候我都人家都在講格題 講回人家我們還在講台鐵票價我們就知道那個整個落差性是很大那我想交通部其實也可以邀請我們國發會就本席是一直提到的花東基金 花東基金那找國發會也好找台東縣政府 花東縣政府我們三方一起來談嘛"},{"start":337.971,"end":351.575,"text":"報告委員 這個部分我們也會去拜託花東基金的部分 國發會的部分來幫我們啦台鐵不應該讓台鐵 因為對台鐵來說它營運是很重要本期建議說比照離島建設的精神其實花東的交通跟離島其實差不多情況"},{"start":362.423,"end":387.213,"text":"部長你之前也去過嘛 你也了解嘛他的特別性就是就是這條運輸道路而已那所以我想能夠召集這些大家來坐下來談說看怎麼樣不管是在交通上 在產業上 運輸上 甚至觀光上我們怎麼來協助那我想這個部分還要請部長還有董事長那邊盡快的將方案提出來那也希望再次呼籲東部的屬性真的很特別"},{"start":388.362,"end":416.839,"text":"我們雖然住的比較遠 我們的人比較少但是我們一樣都是這個國家的一份住 希望大家可以體諒因為我們台鐵有地遠地簡以台北到台東距離比較遠所以它的漲幅是比較低的 平均是28但台東的漲幅只有19%那未來我們還會透過這個會員的優惠的方案給台鐵 給台東的鄉親更多的優惠謝謝部長 也謝謝董事長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1244,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（13時21分）謝謝主席，我們有請陳部長跟臺鐵的伍代理董事長。"],["主席：好，交通部陳部長，還有伍代理董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：部長好、董事長好，兩位好。今天的這個專案報告，本席要特別針對臺鐵的票價調整部分持續跟中央繼續溝通。我們記得去年0403強震之後，造成花東交通、觀光嚴重的衝擊，觀光旅宿業更是一落千丈，後來又接著幾個颱風，造成花東地區雪上加霜。","本席也不斷地跟中央呼籲，一定要看到我們東部目前的困境，不能在東部人現在這麼辛苦的時候，我們又來調漲臺鐵的票價。因此本席去年也在立法院兩度提案，要求中央必須在東部災害還沒有恢復之前，要凍漲東部幹線的票價。未來臺鐵票價合理化的方案，也應該考慮到花東運輸的特殊性來做調整。提案當時也在我們委員會通過，後來部長在去年10月份的時候，也承諾未來春節之前臺鐵票價不會漲。這部分我們要給予部長肯定，也謝謝部長體恤東部的特殊情況，不過很遺憾，從強震後到現在，因為接下來還有颱風陸續來襲，許多花東地區的交通跟觀光都還在復原當中。","現在中央核定的臺鐵新票價，對東部來講非常不公平，為什麼我會這樣說？臺東到臺北的票價，以自強號來說漲了300塊，這對很多外出的學子及北漂工作的這些年輕人來說，都是非常沉重的負擔。尤其臺北到臺東的自強號票價，幾乎跟臺北到高雄一樣。不過必須要講的是，西部幹線除了臺鐵以外，還有高鐵、高速公路和客運，有很多的選擇。我們臺東人除了昂貴的飛機票以外，大眾運輸就剩下臺鐵而已。臺鐵還可能因為豪雨或颱風就會停駛，為什麼我們跟西部負擔一樣高額的票價，可是沒有相同的平等對待？東部人真的不是二等公民。","本席在票價調漲之前多次透過質詢跟會議，要求中央必須凍漲東部幹線的票價，如果真的要調漲也必須研擬花東居民的專屬優惠。先前我跟部長還有國發會主委質詢的時候，特別提到我們可以有一個花東基金的部分，能夠專款專用來補貼，也獲得部長和國發會主委正面的回應。我上個禮拜在總質詢的時候也跟卓院長質詢，他也答應本席會儘快研議花東居民專屬優惠票價部分。不過我們在今天的專案報告裡面，有關花東優惠票價的方案，只有簡單的幾句話帶過，完全沒有具體的期程跟內容。前兩天的新聞有說會給予花東加倍的點數優惠，這個我們後面再談，我想這個根本就是杯水車薪，因此本席要請教部長，到底具體的方案是什麼？你能不能在新票價上路之前就實施花東的優惠票價，來減少花東居民的交通負擔？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我希望的目標也是在6月23號調漲票價的同時，花東的整體優惠方案能夠同時上線。不過這個部分牽涉到整個系統要改系統的問題，我們希望能夠跟得上，所以我們朝這個目標在努力。"],["黃委員建賓：你們的具體方案呢？"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，具體的方案還需要給臺鐵一段時間來研擬跟研議，大概在5月……"],["主席：5月30號。"],["陳部長世凱：5月30號以前會提出方案。"],["黃委員建賓：其實本席很納悶什麼叫點數優惠？部長、董事長，因為很多人不是臺鐵的會員，我就不是臺鐵的會員，那我怎麼樣獲得點數優惠？另外，還有很多臺東的長輩也常常搭火車，長輩可能連手機都不太會用，你要怎麼叫他去用這些優惠？這個都是要討論的。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，沒有手機的人也可以加入會員，這個我們會想辦法，在整體方案提出來之前，所有委員提到的這些問題，我們都會想辦法來解決。我們還是要鼓勵花東的民眾盡量加入會員，因為臺鐵的會員其實有蠻多的優惠，那個會員的點數可以直接折換成票價，讓他的票價可以降低。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，我想未來在整個票價調整政策上面，真的要給花東的居民一些合理的優惠，因為交通處境真的不一樣。我聽到其他委員在質詢的時候，人家都在說高鐵、說飛機，我們還在講臺鐵票價，你就知道那整個落差是很大的。我想交通部也可以邀請國發會，本席一直提到的花東基金，找國發會也好，找臺東縣政府、花蓮縣政府，我們三方一起來談，就是……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，花東基金這個部分，我們也會去拜託國發會來幫我們，因為對臺鐵來說營運是很重要的，所以……"],["黃委員建賓：這些本席都能體諒……"],["陳部長世凱：我們會找國發會。"],["黃委員建賓：本席建議要比照離島建設的精神，其實花東的交通跟離島的情況差不多，部長之前也去過，你也很了解，花東的特別性就是這條運輸道路而已。所以我希望能夠召集大家坐下來談，不管是在交通上、產業上、運輸上，甚至觀光上，我們怎麼來協助花東，我想這個部分，還要請部長和董事長盡快將方案提出來。本席也再次呼籲，東部的屬性真的很特別，我們雖然住得比較遠，人也比較少，但是我們一樣都是這個國家的一份子，希望大家可以體諒。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，因為臺鐵有「遞遠遞減」制，臺北到臺東距離比較遠，所以漲幅比較低，平均是28，但臺東的漲幅只有19%。未來我們還會透過會員的優惠方案，給臺東的鄉親更多的優惠。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長，也謝謝董事長，謝謝主席。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃建賓委員。","現在請李坤城委員、李坤城委員，李坤城委員不在。","現在請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160832","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160832","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423694ec63e2ba2f3dc67385a4fd0f0fffa493679622006e3328bc1ddeb1cac72fbc55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"13:10:49 - 13:20:48","影片長度":"00:09:59","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T13:10:49+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T13:20:48+08:00","duration":599,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.312843750000001,"end":7.422218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.7428437500000005,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9.025343750000001,"end":13.615343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.075968750000001,"end":9.632843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14.087843750000001,"end":15.539093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.69471875,"end":19.403468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.605968750000002,"end":21.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20.01096875,"end":20.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.68159375,"end":31.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.97534375,"end":35.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.63721875,"end":37.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.11784375,"end":39.619718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.446593750000005,"end":41.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.99909375,"end":46.133468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.977218750000006,"end":48.782843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.744718750000004,"end":51.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.275968750000004,"end":55.094093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.56659375,"end":58.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.266593750000006,"end":59.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.118468750000005,"end":61.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.805968750000005,"end":64.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.08409375000001,"end":66.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.78409375000001,"end":68.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.23096875,"end":71.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.00284375000001,"end":72.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.66096875000001,"end":73.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.79159375,"end":76.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.76159375,"end":78.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.27596875,"end":81.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.19534375,"end":84.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.92909375,"end":88.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.99596875,"end":91.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.11346875000001,"end":95.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.28159375,"end":107.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.62159375,"end":113.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.98784375000001,"end":114.44346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.38846875,"end":116.09721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.24471875,"end":126.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.27721875,"end":130.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.01471875000001,"end":138.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.73909375,"end":142.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.49784375000002,"end":146.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.36659375000002,"end":149.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.33659375000002,"end":151.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.96909375,"end":154.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.68596875,"end":160.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.84096875,"end":164.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.88284375,"end":167.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.59534375,"end":170.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.77221875,"end":174.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.97409375,"end":179.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.39096875,"end":181.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":182.53409375,"end":187.37721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.39846875,"end":193.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":187.91721875000002,"end":189.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":192.15284375000002,"end":203.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.49721875,"end":203.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":203.98221875000002,"end":204.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.03284375,"end":204.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":204.04971875,"end":204.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":204.35346875000002,"end":204.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.55596875,"end":205.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.53034375000001,"end":209.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.12471875,"end":212.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.76971875,"end":215.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.34721875000002,"end":219.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":222.03846875000002,"end":225.31221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.18971875000003,"end":230.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.37471875000003,"end":231.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.74096875,"end":236.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.85471875000002,"end":237.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":238.08659375000002,"end":240.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.57971875,"end":245.57909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.03034375000001,"end":248.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":250.57409375,"end":250.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":250.59096875,"end":273.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":271.60034375000004,"end":284.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":279.41346875,"end":280.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":284.27346875,"end":284.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.35784375000003,"end":290.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":284.40846875,"end":284.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":286.45034375,"end":286.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":290.46659375,"end":293.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.37346875000003,"end":297.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.79846875000004,"end":302.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":303.34221875000003,"end":307.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.60721875,"end":317.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":318.25971875000005,"end":320.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":321.49971875,"end":322.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.66409375,"end":323.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.76096875,"end":327.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":324.03096875,"end":324.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":328.11471875,"end":328.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":329.75159375000004,"end":332.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.57409375000003,"end":337.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":338.20596875,"end":338.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.65721875,"end":341.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.17159375,"end":344.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":345.85034375000004,"end":346.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":346.67721875,"end":347.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":348.12846875,"end":350.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.40221875000003,"end":352.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":354.11909375000005,"end":355.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":355.28346875,"end":355.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":356.98784375,"end":357.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":359.90721875,"end":360.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":362.80971875,"end":363.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":363.43409375000005,"end":367.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":368.04096875000005,"end":369.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":370.35284375000003,"end":370.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":370.63971875000004,"end":372.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":373.08659375,"end":374.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":375.04409375,"end":377.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":378.01409375000003,"end":378.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":379.85346875000005,"end":380.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":380.81534375,"end":381.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":381.81096875000003,"end":383.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.41846875000005,"end":383.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":384.32534375,"end":390.40034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":390.92346875000004,"end":392.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":392.50971875000005,"end":394.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":394.09596875,"end":394.58534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":394.92284375,"end":397.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.75346875,"end":400.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":402.33096875,"end":408.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":409.45221875000004,"end":415.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":415.93221875,"end":417.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":417.85596875000005,"end":426.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":427.22159375,"end":429.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":429.97221875,"end":433.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":434.52846875,"end":441.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":442.98284375000003,"end":443.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":444.65346875,"end":445.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":446.34096875,"end":447.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":449.63159375000004,"end":450.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":451.57221875000005,"end":453.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":454.20471875000004,"end":457.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":458.30534375,"end":461.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":462.03471875,"end":464.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":464.31284375,"end":471.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":471.99096875000004,"end":474.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":475.77096875,"end":482.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":482.95971875000004,"end":484.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":485.77784375000005,"end":489.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":490.43534375,"end":491.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":491.85284375000003,"end":502.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":502.88909375000003,"end":504.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":506.12909375000004,"end":506.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":508.15409375,"end":514.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":514.65096875,"end":516.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":516.8615937500001,"end":517.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":518.44784375,"end":519.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":520.30409375,"end":521.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":522.70034375,"end":525.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":527.8472187500001,"end":530.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.96909375,"end":573.9834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":572.86971875,"end":581.5434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":582.33659375,"end":586.2009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":587.3147187500001,"end":592.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":593.27159375,"end":596.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":597.5578437500001,"end":599.17784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.356,"end":15.215,"text":"好 謝主席有請交通部陳部長民航局何局長好 交通部陳部長還有民航局何局長華航高董事長好 華航高董事長"},{"start":19.716,"end":45.951,"text":"第一個問題想請教三位上個會期就是十月份曾經質詢針對高雄小港機場是不是用charter的方式能夠飛歐美用charter然後我希望說你們在今年的暑假charter可以正式來上路結果你們回答給我什麼毫無用心你們回答的內容我不曉得是回的是民航局回的還是華航回的還是交通部回的"},{"start":47.105,"end":65.962,"text":"完全是模糊空泛虛隱故事然後沒有回答我問題的核心也沒有任何承諾完全忽略這個南部人的這個旅行的權益我問局長這個330可以降777能不能降可以787能不能降可以350能不能降"},{"start":72.726,"end":91.603,"text":"三八零能不能降?不行好 三八零例外啦三八零在桃園也比較少所有機型 當然機型 非歐美都可以降我請你非評估 非一個charter你給我虛運故事 給我良知就說明你完全不重視南台灣的旅客的權益嘛我不相信說 華航沒有這個運能"},{"start":97.372,"end":106.819,"text":"我們的南部從高雄這個屏東嘉義還有有時候都要往桃園一到早的這個高鐵還趕不上還要提早一點去過夜你如果有charter你試看看運能怎麼樣嘛你連charter你都不願意去試何議長你的答覆是什麼"},{"start":117.587,"end":142.618,"text":"這個其實我們這個議題已經跟華航長榮新宇已經多次溝通可是他們對於這個部分其實還是你們要有一些你們要主管機關你們要有政策性的引導嘛第一個他在乎成本第二個在乎他的運能第三個他有沒有相關的這個飛行機可以飛航東南亞那麼多轉機客我不相信沒有客源"},{"start":144.554,"end":174.108,"text":"我不是叫你做這個Routine航班勒是用Chart勒 你連Chart勒你都不願意試那高同事長 那個名堂局找你談過幾次這段我不是那麼的清楚 但是我真的沒有運能我的飛機真的是不夠的桃園可以增加 松山可以增加 為什麼南部不能增加你做這個宏觀調控嘛沒有說旗下運能你可以增加 為什麼這個高雄不能增加 沒有這個道理嘛"},{"start":175.049,"end":181.14,"text":"你這完全沒有重視南部人這個旅行的權益部長你說說吧 部長"},{"start":183.034,"end":211.411,"text":"現在華航的這個飛機確實是相對比較吃緊啦齁但是我們也是 您把他我來小港起降用chart先試飛看看看看結果怎麼樣 您所指示的齁我們要用政策引導這個我同意啦齁所以這個部分我們跟華航以外就是長榮的部分我知道長榮的這個運量運能比較有餘裕我們從成果來看啦我安全是原地踏步狗肺火車我是狗肺飛機啊不是狗肺火車我狗肺飛機啊"},{"start":214.074,"end":231.797,"text":"難不成就當二等公民嗎你說沒有運能 運能是你們自己要去調控的民進黨局要負責 主管機關你要負責這個政策協調啊結果我質詢我質詢你 結果你兩點不到一百次就給我這種回顧這個我覺得民進黨局沒有負起該負的責任"},{"start":241.653,"end":270.428,"text":"沒有善盡照顧南台灣這個民眾是搭機的權益南台灣變成二等公民部長你再說一下報告員我也覺得不應該給南台灣的民眾有這樣子的感覺所以民航局其實最近我也交代民航局要更努力的讓高雄機場的航班跟航線必須要增加那來考慮到說我們南部民眾的需求我們盡量短航程的部分我們快速增加"},{"start":271.168,"end":297.63,"text":"長航程的部分我們想辦法來增加 長航程已經回到疫情大概百分之九十八 其實我們都密切注意啦我們要求是說不用坐收勞動 人家要坐高鐵然後我再到這個長航班對不對 那航班飛機又要大十五六個小時我要還要在對面前面過一夜如果我這個一早就可以去小環西港搭飛機 那不是很方便嗎對 所以我們要朝這個方向來努力但是你要有時間表 你要有具體的成果不是說你們努力 努力的結果就是原力踏步"},{"start":300.161,"end":327.238,"text":"你要有一個明確時間表我是要求chart欸我不是叫你定期航班欸每次這個高雄相機問我說為什麼我們飛到桃園去為什麼桃園可以降這個大型的飛機為什麼不能降為什麼不能飛歐美你說聯航它也是經過成年轉那是小飛機啊那是轉機那跟新型的轉機是不是沒有什麼不一樣只是說它是同一家航空是轉機"},{"start":329.95,"end":355.355,"text":"聯航是不是七月七月份不是 那沒有意義啊我從小港也可以到 到成田也可以搭其他航空公司轉機到歐美嘛 一樣的意思嘛是啊 是這個齁 這個 我要講齁有政府去做事 不是有政府會會 會虛擬故事有政府在做事不是在虛擬故事是來 這個 啊對不起 還有三十秒來 高鐵高鐵那個"},{"start":360.261,"end":378.301,"text":"鄭董事長來我跟部長啊都常常我是每天搭高鐵我搭了13年的高鐵每天在高鐵上三個半小時你去過日本日本在高鐵上是禁止打一個行動電話"},{"start":379.915,"end":408.286,"text":"你知道嗎這個我不曉得不管是高鐵或者是他們的公共運輸巴士都不能講行動電話他們也自我要求他們也沒有法律約束他們變成一個國民基本的素養不要太自恃 影響別人高鐵 日本的高鐵很多每一個共同的標準就是說你高鐵 你如果要講話"},{"start":409.482,"end":433.482,"text":"第一個 你自己內部的自我限縮第二個 別人的這個壓力第三個 馬上有人去查處所以他最多只是在車間 車廂跟車廂中間有一個這個電話 這個打電話的一個小小的空間基本上在車廂裡面是禁止通電話的那現在是這樣子 雖然我們有廣播 有一些標示"},{"start":434.571,"end":443.738,"text":"但是沒有嚴格的去取締 也沒有去宣導 只是用罐頭去宣導開擴音的 用視訊的 電話大聲講電話的 幾乎都是這樣在高鐵上面運行 你不能讓它忍耐幾分鐘 最多一個半小時"},{"start":458.359,"end":483.966,"text":"你不要傷你不要損害到其他旅客的權益這個你如果短時間做不到你應該可以要求我們的這個呃乘務人員包括列師長加強對成功的宣導或者高密度的繼續繼續宣傳而不是在高鐵框廣播都是賣你們這個什麼這個什麼這個名產名產的什麼紀念品那個沒重要嘛"},{"start":486.452,"end":503.529,"text":"我們現在有供應哪一個縣市的民產 外交莫屬第一個 安全性最重要 準時到第二個 不要過站不停第三個 服務品質 讓人家搭高鐵是一個很舒適的感覺 安全的感覺你不是要賣東西的所以我說"},{"start":508.166,"end":521.054,"text":"可是鄭董事長你也在高利福很久你也到日本非常久的時間我知道日本人他們很重視這個別人的感受所以他絕對不會說電話在車廂裡面鄭董事長你會看我怎麼樣"},{"start":527.884,"end":545.52,"text":"委員講的沒錯 我們希望說給提供車廂裡面一個安靜的環境事實上我們現在是沒有強制要求規定說在車廂裡面不能講電話但是我們都是希望大家都能夠盡量就不要在裡面講"},{"start":546.221,"end":563.655,"text":"那尤其是說剛才委員提到的說開視訊啊或者是把那個speaker打開啦這個的話呢我們的這個組員看到一定被完全制止的那委員講的也是提醒我們我們會持續的朝這方面加強我們的巡檢我們列車長也好我們的服務人員"},{"start":564.275,"end":585.868,"text":"那麼多這一方面的看 也許如果有看到這個有大聲講話的我們就一定會制止 我們主動會制止他們來維護我們這個行政權益不是 主動你更積極的去如何降低車廂裡面的噪音因為我們每天都要戴耳罩 都要戴耳塞因為那個已經對這個旅客的權益造成很嚴重的影響"},{"start":587.709,"end":594.757,"text":"這個不能只宣導而已 不能柔性宣導而已要拿出更積極的作為能夠讓這個車廂吵鬧 車廂的噪音能夠降低好 謝謝 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1193,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（13時10分）好，謝謝主席。有請交通部陳部長、民航局何局長。"],["主席：交通部陳部長及民航局何局長。"],["邱委員志偉：華航高董事長。"],["主席：華航高董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：第一個問題要請教3位，在上個會期，也就是10月份時曾經質詢，針對高雄小港機場是不是能用charter的方式飛歐美？用charter，我希望你們在今年暑假能夠讓charter正式上路，結果你們給我的回答是什麼？毫無用心！這個內容是民航局回的？交通部回的？或是華航回的？完全是模糊、空泛、虛應故事，沒有回答到我的問題核心，也沒有任何承諾，完全忽略南部人的旅行權益。我要問局長，這個330可以降，777能不能降？"],["何局長淑萍：可以。"],["邱委員志偉：787能不能降？"],["何局長淑萍：可以。"],["邱委員志偉：350能不能降？"],["何局長淑萍：可以。"],["邱委員志偉：380能不能降？"],["何局長淑萍：不行。"],["邱委員志偉：好，380例外啦！380在桃園也比較少，除此之外，所有飛歐美的大機型都可以降。我請你評估飛一個charter，你卻對我虛應故事，只給我2點的說明，你完全不重視南臺灣旅客的權益，我不相信華航沒有這個運能。南部包括高雄、屏東、臺南及嘉義，出國的旅客常常都要趕往桃園，一大早的高鐵還趕不上，甚至要提早一天到桃園過夜。如果你有charter就可以試看看運能如何，但你卻連charter都不願意去試！局長，你的答復是什麼？"],["何局長淑萍：我們其實已經就這個議題與華航、長榮及星宇多次溝通，但他們對於這個部分還是……"],["邱委員志偉：主管機關應該要有政策性的引導嘛！第一個，它在乎的是它的成本。第二個，它在乎的是它的運能。第三個，它有沒有相關的飛行器可以飛航。東南亞有那麼多的轉機客，我不相信沒有客源！現在我不是要你增加新航班，而是用charter的方式，但是你連charter都不願意試！高董事長，民航局找你談過幾次？"],["高董事長星潢：我對於這一段不是那麼清楚，但是我真的沒有運能、我的飛機真的是不夠。"],["邱委員志偉：桃園可以增加、松山可以增加，為什麼南部不能增加？你可以做宏觀調控嘛！為什麼其他運能可以增加，而高雄卻不能增加？沒有這個道理嘛！完全不重視南部人旅行的權益！部長，你說說話？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，現在華航的飛機確實是相對比較吃緊，但我們也是……"],["邱委員志偉：你把它挪到小港起降，採用charter先試飛，看看結果如何。"],["陳部長世凱：對於你所指示的要以政策引導，我同意，因此針對這個部分，除了華航之外，我知道長榮的運量運能比較有餘裕，所以我們會與長榮溝通。"],["邱委員志偉：我們從成果來看，完全是原地踏步！所謂的狗吠火車，但我是狗吠飛機啊！不是狗吠火車，而是狗吠飛機啊！南部人就只能當二等公民嗎？你說沒有運能，但運能是你們自己要去調控的，民航局身為主管機關就應該要負責政策協調啊！對於我提出的質詢，你們只提出2點、不到100個字的回復，我覺得民航局沒有負起該負的責任、沒有善盡照顧南臺灣民眾搭機權益的責任，讓南臺灣人變成了二等公民！部長，你再說一下。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我也認為不該讓南臺灣民眾有這樣的感覺，因此最近我也交代民航局要更努力讓高雄機場的航班及航線必須增加，基於對南部民眾需求的考量，我們盡量在短航程的部分快速增加，長航程的部分也會想辦法增加。"],["邱委員志偉：短航程已經回到疫情前大約98%，我們都有密切注意。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["邱委員志偉：我們的要求是不需要再舟車勞頓，譬如要先搭高鐵再去搭乘長榮航班。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["邱委員志偉：對不對？長榮航班的飛機一搭就要15、16個小時，況且我們還要提前先去桃園過一夜。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["邱委員志偉：如果可以一早直接去小港機場搭飛機，這樣不是很方便嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們要朝這個方向努力，所以我們會去做政策的引導。"],["邱委員志偉：但是你們要有時間表、要有具體的成果，不是在這邊說要努力，而努力的結果就是原地踏步，所以你要有一個明確的時間表。我是要求charter，並不是要求定期航班耶！每次高雄的鄉親都問我為什麼我們非得到桃園去搭飛機？為什麼桃園機場有大型的飛機？為什麼我們不能直接飛歐美？即使廉航也是要經過成田轉機，那也是小飛機啊！那也是轉機啊！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["邱委員志偉：與現行的轉機沒什麼不一樣，只不過它是同一家航空公司轉機。"],["陳部長世凱：廉航是不是7月份……"],["邱委員志偉：不是，那個沒有意義啊！我從小港到成田之後也可以搭其他航空公司的航班轉機到歐美，一樣的意思嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["邱委員志偉：我告訴你，有政府應該是會做事，不是有政府會虛應故事，有政府要做事，而不是虛應故事。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["邱委員志偉：主席，還有30秒，請高鐵的董事長。"],["主席：高鐵鄭董事長。"],["邱委員志偉：我每天搭高鐵，到現在已經13年的時間，而且每天都在高鐵上3個半小時。你有去過日本，日本禁止在高鐵上講行動電話，你知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我不知道在日本的高鐵上不能講電話。"],["邱委員志偉：無論是在高鐵或公共運輸、甚至是BUS都不能講行動電話，而且他們也會自我要求，其實並沒有法律的約束，但這件事就變成國民的一個基本素養，不要太自私而影響到別人。在日本有很多的高鐵，對不對？如果要在高鐵上講電話，第一個要先過得了自我的約束、第二個是來自於別人的壓力、第三個是馬上有人去查巡，因此，最多只能在車廂與車廂之間的一個小小空間可以講電話，基本上，在車廂裡是禁止通電話的。","雖然我們現在也有一些廣播、也有一些標示，但是並沒有嚴格的取締、也沒有政策宣導，只有罐頭式的宣導，因此，有開擴音的、用視訊的、大聲講電話的，幾乎都是這樣子！搭乘高鐵時就不能忍耐幾分鐘嗎？最多就是一個半小時，你不要損害到其他旅客的權益。如果你們在短時間內做不到，應該可以要求乘務人員，包括列車長，加強對乘客的宣導或是高密度的宣傳，而不是在高鐵上的廣播都用來販賣名產、紀念品，這個不重要嘛！譬如廣播我們現在有供應哪個縣市的名產，我覺得不需要。第一個，安全性最重要，必須準時到站。第二個，不要過站不停。第三個，服務品質，讓人覺得搭乘高鐵是一種舒適的感覺、安全的感覺，你們不是只賣東西而已。","鄭董事長，你在高鐵服務很久了，而且你也在日本非常久的時間，應該知道日本很重視別人的感受，所以他們在車廂裡絕對不會講電話，你有什麼看法？"],["鄭董事長光遠：是，委員講得沒錯，我們也希望提供車廂一個安靜的環境。事實上，我們現在並沒有強制規定不能在車廂裡講電話，但我們也希望大家盡量不要在車廂裡講電話，尤其是剛才委員提到開視訊或是把speaker打開，我們的組員看到一定會制止。委員講的也是在提醒我們，我們會持續朝這方面加強巡檢，我們的列車長及服務人員會多方面的看，尤其如果有看到大聲講話的就一定會制止，我們會主動制止他們，來維護其他人的權利。"],["邱委員志偉：不是主動而已，要更積極地去降低車廂裡面的噪音，因為我們每天都要戴耳塞，那已經對旅客的情緒造成很嚴重的影響，這個部分不能只是柔性宣導而已，要拿出更積極的作為，讓車廂的噪音能夠降低，謝謝。謝謝部長，各位辛苦了。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員。","現在請黃建賓委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160831","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160831","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369340a22deccb94795385a4fd0f0fffa493679622006e3328bd3c8be10e344e7af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"13:00:12 - 13:10:39","影片長度":"00:10:27","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T13:00:12+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T13:10:39+08:00","duration":627,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.650343750000001,"end":12.180968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9.227843750000002,"end":11.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12.501593750000001,"end":15.387218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20.297843750000002,"end":20.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.31471875,"end":20.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.95596875,"end":21.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.59284375,"end":65.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.40034375,"end":70.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.56846875000001,"end":87.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.36096875,"end":75.37784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.43659375,"end":77.50409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":77.50409375000001,"end":77.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.89221875,"end":77.90909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":80.74409375,"end":81.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.75159375000001,"end":130.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.50659375000001,"end":88.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.98971875,"end":130.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.55909375000002,"end":130.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.66034375,"end":130.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.69409375,"end":135.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":135.03096875,"end":143.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.35909375,"end":152.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.89721875,"end":159.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.97221875,"end":169.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.96221875,"end":172.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.78034375000001,"end":175.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.13846875000002,"end":178.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.13784375,"end":183.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.87159375000002,"end":189.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.34721875000002,"end":194.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.69284375,"end":192.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":192.96284375000002,"end":193.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":194.46471875,"end":194.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.85284375,"end":194.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":195.56159375000001,"end":205.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":206.31096875,"end":212.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.36159375000003,"end":206.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":212.97659375,"end":216.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":216.28409375,"end":217.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":218.49471875,"end":220.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.03471875000002,"end":219.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":221.49846875,"end":225.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.65034375000002,"end":221.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.51909375000002,"end":231.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":225.71721875,"end":226.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":228.16409375,"end":228.68721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":230.15534375000001,"end":230.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.01159375,"end":243.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":243.41909375,"end":244.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":244.51596875,"end":253.96596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.37971875000002,"end":255.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.96596875000003,"end":254.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":254.28659375,"end":254.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.59034375000002,"end":254.80971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":255.92346875,"end":261.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.30721875,"end":259.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.37409375000004,"end":266.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":264.71534375000005,"end":266.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":266.77409375,"end":266.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":267.41534375000003,"end":270.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.40221875000003,"end":270.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.45284375,"end":295.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":271.04346875000005,"end":271.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.49659375000005,"end":287.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.09471875,"end":294.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.49534375,"end":300.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.27534375000005,"end":302.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.12721875,"end":305.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.96659375,"end":307.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.62846875,"end":312.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.45471875000004,"end":341.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.71596875,"end":346.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.26784375,"end":362.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.80784375,"end":350.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.96596875,"end":363.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.40034375000005,"end":364.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.97409375,"end":367.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.75034375,"end":364.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":368.61471875,"end":372.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":372.56346875,"end":375.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":375.55034375,"end":378.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":379.60034375000004,"end":382.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":384.94971875000005,"end":385.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":386.77221875000004,"end":389.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":389.97846875000005,"end":391.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":391.69971875000005,"end":392.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":393.43784375,"end":400.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.94721875000005,"end":407.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.52846875,"end":410.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.88659375000003,"end":413.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.92409375000005,"end":414.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.71721875000003,"end":414.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.73409375,"end":414.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.75096875,"end":415.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.38784375,"end":426.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.31971875000005,"end":420.67409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.64784375000005,"end":432.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.68159375000005,"end":427.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.23784375,"end":433.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.68471875,"end":433.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.70159375000003,"end":433.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.92096875000004,"end":434.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.15721875,"end":439.69221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.96221875000003,"end":440.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.09721875,"end":440.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.18159375000005,"end":447.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.28659375,"end":450.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":453.49596875000003,"end":456.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.52909375,"end":461.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":458.98034375000003,"end":465.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":465.49409375000005,"end":471.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.20221875000004,"end":474.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":474.45471875000004,"end":474.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.97784375000003,"end":475.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":475.01159375000003,"end":475.02846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.02846875000006,"end":476.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":475.12971875000005,"end":475.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":476.58096875,"end":480.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.64846875,"end":477.20534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.39034375000006,"end":485.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":486.43596875000003,"end":488.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.05596875000003,"end":496.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.05034375,"end":500.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.73346875000004,"end":503.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.45471875000004,"end":501.70784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.80034375,"end":508.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.02784375000005,"end":506.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.04471875,"end":506.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.03596875000005,"end":509.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.95971875000004,"end":512.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.40659375,"end":513.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.3347187500001,"end":519.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.68471875,"end":515.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.9540937500001,"end":521.6540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.37534375,"end":523.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.96596875,"end":523.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.35409375,"end":525.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.5478437500001,"end":530.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.0578437500001,"end":532.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.1628437500001,"end":548.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.4953437500001,"end":539.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.47284375,"end":550.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.6072187500001,"end":558.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.2390937499999,"end":560.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.2765937500001,"end":562.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.8797187499999,"end":564.5165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.54159375,"end":567.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.4822187500001,"end":573.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.20721875,"end":578.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.08409375,"end":587.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.1415937500001,"end":603.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.87346875,"end":608.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.16784375,"end":615.4284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.5847187500001,"end":617.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":615.4284687500001,"end":615.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.1709687499999,"end":616.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.74471875,"end":621.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.5122187500001,"end":619.8159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.8159687500001,"end":619.8328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.6384687500001,"end":624.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":622.71846875,"end":623.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":625.4353437500001,"end":626.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.5534687500001,"end":625.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.2790937500001,"end":627.1059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.1397187499999,"end":627.78096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.969,"end":15.199,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席請陳士凱部長還有台鐵的吳代理董事長好 我們吳代董事長委員好"},{"start":21.004,"end":49.866,"text":"部長好部長本席過去在113、114的年度預算提案以及過去4月23台鐵的專案報告中都有多次要求台鐵來研議看我們第一線的執行人員是否要佩戴密錄器那以強化勤務的安全還有事後釐清責任有一個畫面可以來作為依據那本席在今年的3月24號那也收到台鐵的回覆指出在114年第一次車班公司協商會議決議中出席代表全數不同意購買"},{"start":51.147,"end":64.607,"text":"那本案還會繼續溝通研議嘛那所以本席在本月的7號也就台鐵的回文內容提出質詢那本席今天就該一提請教部長然後還有我們代理董事長首先先問請教"},{"start":66.831,"end":88.824,"text":"部長您贊成台鐵第一線執行人員佩戴密錄器嗎如果是站在保障員工執行的安全的部分我當然是贊成啦但是工會那邊有不一樣的思考他們也考量到說同仁的隱私或者說他執行過程當中不希望透過公司透過這個密錄器來做類似懲處部長我們先繼續看下去"},{"start":89.304,"end":117.537,"text":"那根據台鐵提供給本席的資料我們可以看到應該要調查的人數是1139人那實際調查人數是900人那我們看到調查結果有56%的人認為知情時應該佩戴密錄器57%的人認為應該要統一來公發那超過六成的員工不反對使用密錄器部長從台鐵的調查資料我們可以看到超過一半的員工都是贊成佩戴密錄器的而且六成以上不反對嘛"},{"start":118.177,"end":135.053,"text":"那既然有那麼多員工他明確都表示支持那為什麼在協商會議上呢那麼多代表他是全數來做反對是哪一個環節出了問題還是有落差與基層的聲音有落差工會當時怎麼說我是不是請台鐵先回答一下"},{"start":138.434,"end":159.478,"text":"主要問題出現在我們的使用規則裡面有一條是 上一次本席質詢的時候您也在台下嘛那沒關係我們繼續我們請部長繼續看下去就是使用規章的部分那部長您看到你覺得最有問題的是哪一點我想如果就剛剛的說法應該是全程錄影的這個部分他們應該是會有意見的"},{"start":160.194,"end":189.038,"text":"沒錯 這就是引發反對聲音的主因那上一次馮總經理也說到這一點就是全程要開啟讓所有代表都有意見就是有人質疑說隱私被侵犯了那上廁所的時候是不是錄影也要開著所以不同意購買部長您認為這一點它合理嗎如果考量到例如說上廁所的時候那當然這是非常不合理所以為什麼會有那麼僵化跟死板的規定為什麼一定要全程來做錄影呢"},{"start":190.887,"end":215.768,"text":"這個我們可以來討論好不好我們先董事長今天委員報告齁這個中間其實大家討論很多齁剛剛提到如果說是上廁所那當然這個當然是一定要關掉就不會去要求公司要求說你上廁所都要打開不會但是如果全程你在執勤的期間我們會希望他全程的開路為什麼呢第一個我們不希望未來如果有什麼事情被端端起於"},{"start":216.408,"end":243.139,"text":"就截斷一部分這真的我覺得我認為這其實是保護同仁要不然到時候你只有一個畫面你說啊前面我們是確實啊這個密錄器應該是要保障安全的工具啊不是變成壓力的來源那部長還有戴隆市長那其實在其他部門密錄器的使用已經早就行之有年啦不只是我們看到可以看到消防機關還有財政部還有地方的社會局都有建制規範"},{"start":244.58,"end":269.87,"text":"跟委員報告好 因為我們跟第一 剛講這些大概都第一線的同仁跟那個一般我們的用戶人接觸比較頻繁所以在台鐵沒有辦法來做事情況開啟嗎到目前至少 我認為應該是這個應該 我覺得應該還要繼續那什麼時候會再召開下一次的會議再做討論呢就是真的不要那麼一切全程都要錄影我們盡快再找先生跟人家溝通一下"},{"start":271.087,"end":289.733,"text":"報告委員未來如果要在開會討論我們會針對一些情境一些情境排除的部分我們來列入也就是說更人性化你在執勤的過程當中我們希望全程都要錄影但是裡面有一些情境例如說我們剛才所提到上廁所上洗手間這個部分我們就是可以關掉"},{"start":290.413,"end":307.399,"text":"但是當你面對客人的時候在第一線面對客人在工作的時候為了保護自己我們還是希望他開啟我們就是說這個前提是在他們在執行在第一線在第一線執行的時候才做使用對沒有錯OK好那可以先請對朝這個方向來調整我相信大家接受度會相對高一些"},{"start":307.859,"end":323.387,"text":"OK 好 那總經理和我們的代理董事長可以先請回座休息那本席接下來我們看到在這個月17號的時候台鐵它頻繁發生吊車的意外然後還有幽靈列車的問題那本席也有向預安會"},{"start":324.207,"end":346.266,"text":"反映這個問題是否該介入調查那剛好藉這個機會也讓部長您了解那最近台鐵的事故頻傳我們可以看到短短四個月內就發生七起不當的停車事件五個月內也發生了七起吊車意外那請問這個雙七這個雙七的問題看起來不是偶發的事件那台鐵有沒有提出改善"},{"start":347.578,"end":367.486,"text":"當然啦 針對這些事情不斷在檢討啦那我們也看得出來說有大部分的案例是因為我們的同仁沒有依照這個SOP 相關的SOP的規定下去做當你沒有依照SOP當然就容易出意外所以是人為的問題嘛人為的問題 人為的問題那部長 現在還要給您看一段影片 我們先來看影片"},{"start":368.772,"end":381.07,"text":"來看一下我們到站列車317那就是他現在位置等一下位置然後等一下他到站之後他的317會不會變幽靈列車好我們看一下他會不會變幽靈列車進來看"},{"start":385.069,"end":399.71,"text":"坐不見了一股、二股、三股、四股、五股、六股、一股還有車還有車不見了那他不是到車站沒了喔他還要去調度到那個基地喔沒了就這樣"},{"start":401.001,"end":415.114,"text":"好部長您有看到嗎明明就是列車還在月台可是在這個監視畫面中我們沒有看到任何訊號他沒有顯示在這個監視畫面中那這邊也請我們林信德主委保護委員"},{"start":416.888,"end":432.438,"text":"這個案例我聽台鐵公司有在說明這位值班的副站長他應該要理解實際的狀況但是他不理解然後還錄了影片給大家一個錯誤的訊息我認為這個是所以這個都是站長的問題嗎不是這個到了他終點站到了終點站本來他那個車號就是會消失"},{"start":439.923,"end":441.584,"text":"我們有請台鐵提供資料 現在詳細資料還沒到我們這裡"},{"start":457.574,"end":480.624,"text":"所以台鐵的詳細資料還沒有到運安會嗎?那運安會是什麼時候開始起動調查?就剛剛台鐵所說明的它是有一點類似像假信號資料事實上它不是真正實行但是我們還希望它的資料是說不定的所以現在台鐵說是因為這樣的情況所以就運安會就不用調查了嗎?不是還是會調查嗎?還是會調查我們還是還沒有考慮要不要立案因為它資料還沒有完全齊全"},{"start":481.568,"end":509.289,"text":"所以剛才在我們台鐵的說明這個也是人為的問題嗎?不是系統出現錯誤嗎?包委員這個系統的設定長年來都是這樣設定但是錄影片的這一位先生是他不了解這個狀況那如果是一般的民眾不了解這個狀況我們可以接受如果說這位先生不了解狀況那是不是教育訓練出現了問題?我認為這個人的教育訓練應該是有問題我認為台鐵應該要懲處喔事實上軌道比賽我們有EP盤"},{"start":510.029,"end":525.627,"text":"是 那會不會針對這位這位員工來做懲處我們會再加強訓練會再加強訓練了解我們的系統整個運作的一個所以他今天不了解這個系統你們就讓他上工啊沒有 他應該是要了解他"},{"start":526.604,"end":549.615,"text":"我們這個部分也會詳細的去對他做輔導我認為除了訓練之外這位同仁在台鐵裡面這麼多年的時間不了解這個狀況還錄影片讓社會誤導社會對台鐵這件事情的誤解我認為這位員工台鐵要好好的輔導以外那就是台鐵本身就有很大的問題"},{"start":551.636,"end":564.655,"text":"因為他在安全管理上面本來就是要系統化跟常態化還有標準化那為什麼今天會有這位這位員工他不了解情況他還把影片傳到傳到網路上那他明明就在第一線他應該要了解情況的啊"},{"start":568.533,"end":587.34,"text":"報告委員我再說明稍微清楚一點這個是我們的TID系統就是車輛的列車資訊顯示的系統那他會跟我們車站的這個車站的一個顯示板是連動的所以因為他到終點站所以到站了這個列車就會"},{"start":588.26,"end":607.59,"text":"就會消失掉因為避免旅客還看到那一班車還在還認為他還在營運他已經到站了那但是我們的安全絕對的安全是我們的CP盤就是我們的所以這一位副站長他其實應該說那麼多那其實就是台鐵現在內部還是存在著問題啊很大的問題啊"},{"start":609.195,"end":624.528,"text":"沒有 這個我們會詳細的再去了解就剛才部長也提到本席今天也讓部長了解那請在督促開帖這件事情上系統沒問題啦這件事情上是人的誤解所以又是人為的問題嗎是人的誤解所以還有管理上面出了問題嗎這個我們來檢討好 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1109,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（13時）謝謝主席。主席，請陳世凱部長及臺鐵的代理董事長。"],["主席：陳部長及伍代理董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：部長好。部長，本席過去在113、114的年度預算提案以及4月23日臺鐵的專案報告都曾多次要求臺鐵研議第一線執勤人員是否要配戴密錄器，以強化勤務的安全及事後釐清責任能有畫面做為依據。本席在今年3月24日收到臺鐵的回復，114年第一次車班工時協商會議決議，出席代表全數不同意購買，本案將持續進行溝通研議。因此，本席於本月的7日針對臺鐵的回文內容提出質詢，今天也針對該議題請教部長及代理董事長。首先要請教部長，你贊成臺鐵第一線執勤人員配戴密錄器嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：如果站在保障員工執勤安全的立場，我當然是贊成啦！"],["邱委員若華：是。"],["陳部長世凱：但是工會那邊有不一樣的思考，他們也考量到同仁的隱私，或者在執勤過程中不希望公司透過密錄器做類似懲處或考績……"],["邱委員若華：部長，我們就繼續看下去，根據臺鐵提供給本席的資料，可以看到應該調查的人數是1,139人，但實際調查人數是900人，而且調查結果有56%的人認為執勤時應該配戴密錄器、57%的人認為應該要統一公發，超過六成的員工不反對使用密錄器。部長，根據臺鐵的調查資料，我們可以看到超過一半的員工都贊成配戴密錄器，而且有六成以上不反對，既然有那麼多員工明確表示支持，為什麼在協商會議上卻是全數代表都反對？究竟是哪個環節出了問題？或是與基層的聲音有落差？"],["陳部長世凱：當時工會是怎麼說的，我是不是請臺鐵來回答一下？"],["邱委員若華：是。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：委員好。報告委員，主要問題是因為在我們的使用規則中有一條……"],["邱委員若華：上次本席質詢時你也在台下，沒關係！我們請部長繼續看關於使用規章的部分。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["邱委員若華：部長，你認為最有問題的是哪一點？"],["陳部長世凱：如果就剛剛的說法而言，他們應該是對全程錄影的部分有意見。"],["邱委員若華：沒錯！這個就是引發反對聲音的主因。上次馮總經理也說到，全程開啟的這一點讓所有代表都有意見，有人質疑隱私被侵犯了，譬如上廁所是不是錄影也要開著，所以全數不同意購買。部長，你認為這一點合理嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：如果考量到譬如上廁所的時候，當然就是屬於隱私的問題。"],["邱委員若華：對啊！這個非常不合理，為什麼會有那麼僵化及死板的規定？為什麼一定要全程錄影呢？"],["陳部長世凱：我們可以針對這個來討論，好不好？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：報告委員，大家其實討論了很多，譬如剛剛提到上廁所的部分，當然一定要關掉，公司不會要求上廁所都要打開，不會！但是針對執勤的期間，我們會希望他能全程開錄，為什麼呢？第一個，我們不希望未來發生什麼事時被斷章取義，就只截斷一部分，真的，我認為這個要求其實是保護同仁，要不然到時候只有一個畫面，至於前後如何根本就不知道。"],["邱委員若華：這個密錄器應該是保障安全的工具，而不是變成壓力的來源。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：當然不是。"],["邱委員若華：部長及代理董事長，其他部門使用密錄器早就行之有年，我們可以看到消防機關、財政部及地方社會局都有建置及規範。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：報告委員，剛剛講的大概都是第一線的同仁，與一般用路人接觸得比較頻繁，我們認為真的是應該要……"],["邱委員若華：在臺鐵無法視情況開啟嗎？一定要全程開啓？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：我個人認為應該還要繼續。"],["邱委員若華：什麼時候會再召開下一次會議繼續討論呢？針對不要硬性規定全程都要錄影？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：我們盡快再找時間溝通一下。"],["邱委員若華：OK，那……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，如果未來要再開會討論，我們會針對一些情境排除的部分列入，也就是更人性化，希望在執勤過程中要全程錄影，但是其中有一些情境，譬如剛剛我們提到上廁所、上洗手間就可以關掉，但是當你面對客人的時候、在第一線面對客人工作的時候，為了要保護自己，我們還是希望他能夠開啟。"],["邱委員若華：我們還是希望這個前提是在第一線執勤的時候才使用嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒有錯！沒有錯！"],["邱委員若華：OK，好。"],["陳部長世凱：朝這個方向調整，相信大家的接受度會相對高一些。"],["邱委員若華：OK，好，總經理及代理董事長可以先回座休息。","我們看到臺鐵頻繁發生調車的意外及幽靈列車的問題，因此，本席在這個月17日向運安會反映針對這個問題是否該介入調查。剛好也藉這個機會讓部長了解，最近臺鐵的事故頻傳，我們可以看到短短4個月內就發生7起不當的停車事件、5個月內也發生了7起調車意外。請問，這個雙7的問題看起來並不是偶發事件，臺鐵有沒有提出改善措施？有沒有針對這兩個問題進行檢討？"],["陳部長世凱：當然，針對這些事情不斷在檢討。"],["邱委員若華：是。"],["陳部長世凱：我們也看出有大部分的案例是因為同仁未依照相關SOP的規定去做，當你沒有依照SOP就容易會出意外。"],["邱委員若華：所以是人為的問題嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：人為的問題佔比較多數。"],["邱委員若華：部長，本席現在就讓你看一段影片。","（播放影片）"],["邱委員若華：部長，你有看到嗎？明明列車就還在月台，但是在監視畫面中我們沒看到任何訊號，它並未顯示在監視畫面中。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，關於這個案例，我聽過臺鐵公司的說明。這位值班的副站長應該要理解實際狀況，但是他並不理解，還錄了影片給大家一個錯誤的訊息，我認為臺鐵公司應該要……"],["邱委員若華：所以是站長的問題嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：到了終點站之後，車號本來就是會消失，這是行之有年、一直都是這樣的做法，值班副站長自己不理解這個狀況，還出來講這個影片……"],["邱委員若華：請教主委，是這樣的情況嗎？上次本席就詢問過主委，是否應該要進行調查？"],["林主任委員信得：對，委員講得沒有錯！我們已經請臺鐵提供資料，目前詳細資料尚未送達我們這邊。"],["邱委員若華：所以臺鐵的詳細資料還未送達運安會，那麼運安會是什麼時候開始啟動調查？"],["林主任委員信得：初步就是剛剛臺鐵所說明的，它有點類似像假訊號，事實上，它不是真正……但我們還是希望……它的資料是書面性的。"],["邱委員若華：臺鐵說是因為這樣的情況，所以運安會就不用調查了嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：不是。"],["邱委員若華：還是會調查嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：還是會調查。"],["邱委員若華：OK。"],["林主任委員信得：我們還沒考慮要不要立案，因為它的資料尚未完全齊全。"],["邱委員若華：剛剛才知道臺鐵的說明，所以這個也是人為的問題嗎？不是系統出現錯誤嗎？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：不是，這是他的誤解。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個系統長年來都是這樣設定，但是錄影片的這位先生不了解這個狀況，如果是一般民眾不了解這個狀況，我們可以接受，但他是值班副站長……"],["邱委員若華：如果是這位先生不了解狀況，是否就是教育訓練出現了問題？"],["陳部長世凱：我認為這個人的教育訓練應該是有問題，我認為臺鐵應該要懲處喔！"],["馮總經理輝昇：事實上，我們針對軌道閉塞有EP盤……"],["邱委員若華：是否會針對這位員工進行懲處？"],["馮總經理輝昇：我們會再加強訓練。"],["邱委員若華：會再加強訓練？"],["馮總經理輝昇：我們的系統整個運作的正常……"],["邱委員若華：在他不了解這個系統的情況下，你們就讓他上工了？"],["馮總經理輝昇：他應該是要了解，對於這個部分，我們也會詳細地對他進行輔導。"],["陳部長世凱：我認為處理除了訓練之外，這位同仁在臺鐵已經這麼多年的時間，不只不了解這個狀況，甚至還錄下影片，誤導社會對臺鐵這件事情產生誤解，因此，我認為臺鐵除了要好好輔導這位員工之外，有沒有懲處的問題也需要討論。"],["邱委員若華：現在就是臺鐵本身有很大的問題嘛！因為它在安全管理上本來就要系統化、常態化及標準化，為什麼今天會有這位員工不理解情況，甚至還把影片傳到網路上？他明明就在第一線，應該要了解情況啊！"],["馮總經理輝昇：報告委員，我再說明清楚一點。這是我們的TID系統，也就是列車資訊顯示系統，它會與車站的顯示板連動，因此它到達終點站之後，這個列次就會消失掉，這是避免旅客看到那班車認為它還在營運，其實它已經到站了。但我們的安全、絕對的安全就是我們的CP盤，所以這位副站長其實應該要……"],["邱委員若華：總經理，你說了那麼多，其實就是臺鐵內部仍然存在著問題、很大的問題。"],["馮總經理輝昇：我們會再詳細了解，誠如剛剛部長所提，除了輔導……"],["邱委員若華：今天本席也讓部長了解，請再督促臺鐵。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這件事情在系統的部分並沒有問題，其實是人的誤解。"],["邱委員若華：所以又是人為的問題嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是人的誤解。"],["邱委員若華：還有管理上出了問題。"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們來檢討。"],["邱委員若華：好，謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱若華委員。","現在請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160830","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160830","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369b06596fb373943b8385a4fd0f0fffa493679622006e3328b06b889c0fce998ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:51:53 - 13:00:05","影片長度":"00:08:12","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:51:53+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T13:00:05+08:00","duration":492,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.05409375,"end":17.344718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.20971875,"end":21.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.55784375,"end":31.418468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.447843750000004,"end":37.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.45971875,"end":37.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.674718750000004,"end":43.922843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.61471875,"end":45.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.04471875,"end":51.010343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.719093750000006,"end":55.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.41034375,"end":58.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.14409375,"end":60.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.69221875,"end":64.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.45534375,"end":76.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.62659375,"end":79.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.05221875000001,"end":80.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.26721875,"end":85.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.51534375,"end":86.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.27034375000001,"end":92.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.96159375,"end":100.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.19659375,"end":105.51659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.70221875,"end":110.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.74784375,"end":114.64596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.81096875,"end":111.82784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.21971875000001,"end":118.18971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.39221875000001,"end":119.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.69159375000001,"end":122.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.45471875000001,"end":129.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.13721875000002,"end":131.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.28471875,"end":133.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.92596875,"end":131.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.97659375,"end":132.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.17909375000002,"end":132.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.38971875000001,"end":135.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.97596875000002,"end":140.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.80221875,"end":146.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.09659375,"end":148.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.78409375,"end":151.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.58534375000002,"end":152.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.63159375,"end":154.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.07846875,"end":163.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.84096875,"end":167.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.85659375,"end":174.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.26096875000002,"end":175.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.54346875000002,"end":179.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.13784375,"end":180.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.42846875,"end":183.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.99784375000002,"end":186.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.93846875,"end":187.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.83221875,"end":194.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.08909375000002,"end":197.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.80159375000002,"end":199.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.10096875000002,"end":204.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.30284375000002,"end":205.63596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.31971875000002,"end":209.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.53409375,"end":212.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.11159375000003,"end":215.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.47846875000002,"end":218.14034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.38971875000001,"end":215.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.14034375000003,"end":219.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.08534375000002,"end":219.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.43534375000002,"end":221.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.65034375000002,"end":223.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.54471875000002,"end":224.89034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.58221875,"end":225.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.30346875,"end":230.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.18909375,"end":233.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.65721875000003,"end":231.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.30659375000002,"end":236.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.48784375000002,"end":241.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.51221875000002,"end":243.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.66346875000002,"end":247.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.90346875,"end":249.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.32534375,"end":254.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.54846875,"end":253.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.03346875000003,"end":256.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.34096875,"end":270.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.07346875,"end":269.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.97596875,"end":275.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.65034375,"end":286.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.39534375,"end":288.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.19659375000003,"end":293.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.63909375000003,"end":293.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.74034375,"end":293.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.82471875000005,"end":295.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.02284375,"end":295.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.37284375,"end":296.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.06471875,"end":298.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.87034375,"end":307.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.39659375,"end":314.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.88971875000004,"end":310.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.56409375000004,"end":316.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.68596875000003,"end":325.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":325.66784375000003,"end":326.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.44409375000004,"end":327.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":327.89534375,"end":331.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":332.31659375000004,"end":334.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.45159375000003,"end":333.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":334.37534375,"end":335.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.23159375,"end":337.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":338.17221875,"end":347.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.61409375,"end":345.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.12034375,"end":348.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":348.39846875,"end":350.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.69784375,"end":352.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.78596875,"end":353.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.89971875000003,"end":362.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.15159375,"end":364.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.37909375000004,"end":366.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.70784375000005,"end":368.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.37409375000004,"end":371.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.39909375,"end":372.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.40284375000005,"end":377.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.11534375,"end":380.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.57471875000005,"end":382.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.41409375,"end":384.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.94534375,"end":389.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.14721875000004,"end":391.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.88534375,"end":393.70784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.65284375000005,"end":395.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.06596875,"end":400.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.80784375,"end":409.31721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.80659375000005,"end":415.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.18534375,"end":416.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.33284375000005,"end":419.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.10034375000004,"end":423.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.71159375,"end":424.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.43284375,"end":426.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.00221875000005,"end":429.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.28034375000004,"end":430.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.87909375000004,"end":434.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.04721875,"end":438.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.52784375000005,"end":441.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":442.08846875,"end":449.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.27721875000003,"end":449.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.41221875,"end":449.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":449.56409375000004,"end":453.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.66471875,"end":461.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":454.00221875000005,"end":454.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":455.82471875000005,"end":456.49971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":456.70221875000004,"end":457.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":458.81159375000004,"end":459.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.89971875000003,"end":461.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":461.91659375,"end":462.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.13596875,"end":465.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.52784375000005,"end":467.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.00846875,"end":469.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":470.35409375,"end":471.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.02909375,"end":472.63221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.49284375,"end":474.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":473.56034375,"end":485.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.58471875000004,"end":479.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.09471875,"end":489.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.43534375,"end":491.97096875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":14.219,"end":35.296,"text":"請民政局的何局長跟華航的高董事長好 民航局何局長還有我們華航高董事長那個4月13號啊有一部這個CI753的這個飛機啊好"},{"start":39.901,"end":64.116,"text":"從桃園要飛到新加坡結果在越南的外海又撤了發動機就是引擎故障結果非常奇怪的他沒有在附近的備用機場停然後再一個半小時就可以到新加坡了結果他竟然要往回走飛到小港去了這網路上已經炸開了很多人都在質疑說"},{"start":65.529,"end":86.746,"text":"那時候華航是什麼只顧著這個成本不過人民的這個死活跟生命安全嗎飛機上有181名的乘客還有所有機組員的生命安全我今天就問得很具體喔 局長我底下先問等一下董事長可以回答當天有沒有比較近的機場是可以降轉的有沒有"},{"start":88.631,"end":110.133,"text":"跟委員報告 當天因為他飛的確實是在胡志明的接近的外海的部分那當然他有幾個機場可以選擇 因為他填的備用機場目的地是新加坡嘛 那有一個馬尼拉的備降機場然後再來是胡志明香港 那他台北這邊是高雄 台北 沒有高雄"},{"start":110.934,"end":133.018,"text":"飛行是很精密的嘛備用機場一定是先選好的嘛那為了安全我相信說局長你的家人在飛機上部長現在在在場你的家人在機場一定是用最快的時間嘛安全第一嘛對不對那你是找一個最近的備用機場啊福建的兩個都是半個小時啊越南的縣港機場胡志明機場啊那為什麼沒有選擇這兩個甚至連這個"},{"start":136.021,"end":161.15,"text":"那你就飛一個半小時到也OK你往回跑耶 跑三個小時 將近三個小時耶好 跟委員報告對於這個因為他要選擇在哪裡備降當然他有一些因素考量那天候也是其中一個那根據我們初步訪談華航的駕駛員的說明跟公司的說明就是他這幾個機場裡面 縣港也是其中一個那這個 這些機場他有提到有一些氣象的問題天氣的問題"},{"start":162.751,"end":180.798,"text":"那這個天氣 你說的兩個最近的半個小時的這個氣候的這個問題來 我給你看三個 三十分鐘可以到一個叫縣港 一個叫福治明市最重要有沒有 氣候上有沒有什麼問題降雨 中間這條線那天這兩個當地的氣候一滴雨都沒有"},{"start":191.877,"end":221.004,"text":"上面溫度也沒有問題下面是風速風速非常適合飛機降落妳有調這個資料嗎我們現在正在調我們所有跟氣象TUF跟META的資料所以本來應該比較近沒有問題要降落嘛等一下你們現在推說妳現在是騙人還是沒有去查我們現在正在調查華航的說法是華航那我們也會根據我們航船的這就是當天的這就是當天縣港跟胡志明市因為我們要對不對這夠清楚了嗎"},{"start":221.704,"end":237.356,"text":"所以我希望民航局還有華航不要欺騙我們民眾要面對問題這個部分我們在調查委員所提的資料也會來跟我們我們航管這邊機場的資料我們繼續來問這個攸關人命的事情而且絕對以後不能再換這個事情當天是誰下的這個決定是機師下的決定還是華航"},{"start":249.488,"end":255.4,"text":"我們的初步訪談是還是我們初步訪談我想我們在那個"},{"start":257.541,"end":282.58,"text":"發生事情的當下他用衛星電話打回到聯管中心那聯管中心所有的單位會把他們目前所有的資訊通通都會告知那個機長最後有機長 催哨者催哨者來檢舉的是說當天是當天不是機師是想要降落的吧他為了安全一定是這樣做嘛我都要告訴你們家人自己在上面你一定是要最近的嘛他自己在飛機上這個機長又有那麼重的責任181條人命所有機組員在上面"},{"start":287.435,"end":312.916,"text":"他當然希望降落最近的啊所以這個不是機長 不是機師的這個決定嘛這是華航 華航或CC做的決定是不是不是那向哲瑋機長 這一定是機長做的決定因為我們的規定 大家從當機長的第一天開始他就知道所有的決定這個很不符合人性齁 機長那時候做這個決定這個生命安全 沒關係我跟你講這個是可以查證的 來來來那個機長 部長也在現場齁我要問"},{"start":317.728,"end":332.738,"text":"那時候你們有沒有指示這個基礎委員要折返台灣你們那個那時候的那個通訊這個有辦法查驗嗎跟委員報告一定有通訊嘛對不對這個部分其實是他們有一些討論有些討論對有些討論就是"},{"start":336.681,"end":347.415,"text":"給建 應該是這樣講機長依據第三條他可以做所有的處理嘛那過程中是有一些討論 航管單位有給建議聯管單位 我們相關資料都會調查我們調查完會來公開到底是機長做的"},{"start":353.963,"end":371.986,"text":"是機師本身做的這個決定還是OCC做的這個決定 聯管中心的這個要對全民的要有個交代 好不好另外一個很嚴重的其實啦 飛安是非常嚴肅的而且規定非常嚴格的你美國的FAA美國聯邦航空條例裡面 讓我們看一下如果雙引擎的這個飛機發生有一個引擎壞掉了它是明定 你要選擇最近的嘛"},{"start":381.676,"end":399.956,"text":"所以你就違反這個規定啊下面這個更明確了你不能夠憑這些因素就沒有在最近的機場降落 三大理由這次華航全部都違背了三個都違背了 第一個你們現在的講法是說 我的燃油的油量是夠的啊"},{"start":401.817,"end":430.605,"text":"他說你要從最近的先降落他不能夠因為說你的燃油的量是過的你就要往更遠的地方更遠的地方飛第二個除了乘客安全以外的所有的安排就是乘客安全是最優先啦因為最急迫嘛對不對第三個你不能夠為了修復或者是修復你現在可能說回到台灣可能修復成本比較比較低欸修復成本華航的成本比那個人命還還重要嗎哪一個排在前面"},{"start":431.972,"end":440.362,"text":"所以就違反了這三個規定所以今天我們做第一個請一個禮拜大概調查要多久會出來"},{"start":443.093,"end":469.562,"text":"剛剛有提到就是我們會因為整個完整的報告因為它還有發動機的故障問題所以航務的部分我們會有一個初步報告我們一個月會提出來一個月喔能不能再快一點點這兩個很重要第一個當然是要追查清楚真相第二更重要這種事情絕對不能再發生嘛甚至你以後就是一定要貫徹要貫徹跟美國這個FAA這個標準要是一致的好不好能不能再快一點點你什麼時候再給我"},{"start":471.942,"end":488.167,"text":"給所有的交通委員會給我們一個月因為剛剛有講到的很多資料我們都要去處理我們也不是只看華航的資料那所以說是不是給我們一個月初步一個月內要公開透明然後絕對不要犯同樣的錯誤好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1063,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時52分）請民航局的何局長跟華航的高董事長。"],["主席：民航局何局長和華航高董事長。"],["張委員啓楷：4月13日有一架CI-753的飛機要從桃園飛往新加坡，在越南外海右側引擎故障，結果非常奇怪，它沒有停在附近的備用機場，它再1個半小時就可以到新加坡了，結果它竟然往回飛，飛到小港機場去了。這個在網路上已經炸開了，很多人都在質疑華航只顧成本，不顧人民的死活跟生命安全嗎？飛機上有181名的乘客和所有機組人員的生命安全。我今天要很具體的問，局長，我在這裡先問，等一下董事長也可以回答。當天有沒有比較近的機場是可以降轉的？有沒有？"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，當天它確實是飛在接近胡志明市的外海，當然，它有幾個機場可以選擇，因為它填的備用機場目的地是新加坡，馬尼拉也有一個備降機場，再來是胡志明市、香港，還有臺北，沒有高雄。"],["張委員啓楷：飛行是很精密的，備用機場一定是先選好的。為了安全，我相信如果局長有家人在飛機上，部長現在也在場，你的家人在飛機上一定是用最快的時間，安全第一嘛！對不對？你一定是找一個最近的備用機場啊！附近有2個機場都是半個小時就到了，就是越南的峴港機場和胡志明市機場，為什麼沒有選擇這兩個？那你就飛1個半小時到也OK，但是你是往回飛，飛了將近3個小時。"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，對於它要選擇在哪裡備降，當然它有一些因素考量，天候也是其中一個，根據我們初步訪談華航駕駛員跟公司的說明，峴港也是其中一個，他有提到，這些機場有氣象的問題、天氣的問題，這個天氣資料……"],["張委員啓楷：你說的這兩個最近的、半個小時就會到的機場，它的氣候問題，來，我給你看，30分鐘就可以到的機場有一個是峴港機場、一個是胡志明市機場，最重要的是氣候上有沒有什麼問題？降雨，就是中間這條線，那天這兩個地方當地的氣候，一滴雨都沒有。上面溫度也沒有問題；下面是風速，風速也非常適合飛機降落，你有調這個資料嗎？"],["何局長淑萍：我們現在正在調所有跟氣象TAF跟METAR有關的資料，我們會調出來核對。"],["張委員啓楷：所以本來應該降落在比較近的機場是沒有問題的。第二個，你們現在是在騙人還是沒有去查？"],["何局長淑萍：我們現在正在調查，華航的說法是華航的說法，我們也會根據我們航管的……"],["張委員啓楷：局長，這是當天峴港和胡志明市的天氣資料，對不對？這夠清楚了嗎？所以我希望民航局和華航不要欺騙民眾，要面對問題。"],["何局長淑萍：這個部分我們正在調查，委員所提的資料我們也會跟航管和機場的資料一起來調查。"],["張委員啓楷：好，來，我們繼續來問，這是攸關人民的事情，而且以後絕對不能再犯這樣的事情。當天是誰下這個決定的？是機師下這個決定還是華航？"],["何局長淑萍：我們初步的訪談是……"],["張委員啓楷：高董事長。"],["何局長淑萍：好，請董事長來說。"],["高董事長星潢：我們在發生事情的當下，有用衛星電話打電話回聯合管制中心，聯管中心所有的單位會把他們目前所有的資訊通通都告知那個機長，最後……"],["張委員啓楷：吹哨者來檢舉的是說，當天機師是想要降落，因為他為了安全一定要這樣做。我剛才已經講了，如果是你們的家人在上面，你一定是要最近的，他自己都在飛機上了，這個機長又有這麼重的責任，181條人命，所有的機組人員都在上面，他當然是希望在最近的機場降落啊！所以這個不是機師的決定嘛！這是華航OCC所做的決定是不是？"],["高董事長星潢：不是。"],["張委員啓楷：那是誰做的決定？"],["高董事長星潢：機長，這一定是機長做的決定，因為我們規定，從擔任機長的第一天開始，他就知道所有的決定……"],["張委員啓楷：那時候要機長做這個決定很不符合人性，這個攸關生命安全。沒關係，我跟你說，這是可以查證的。","來，局長，部長也在現場，我要問，那時候你們有沒有指示機組員要折返臺灣？那個時候的通訊有辦法查驗嗎？"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：一定有通訊嘛！對不對？"],["何局長淑萍：其實這個部分他們有一些討論。"],["張委員啓楷：有一些討論？"],["何局長淑萍：對，有一些討論。"],["高董事長星潢：他們有給建議。"],["何局長淑萍：應該是這樣講，機長可以依據第三條來做所有的處理，過程中是有一些討論，航管單位、聯管單位也有給建議，相關的資料我們都會調查。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，這部分的資料是可以公開的嗎？"],["何局長淑萍：我們調查完後就會公開。"],["張委員啓楷：調查完後就會對外公開，到底是機師本身做了這個決定？還是OCC做的決定？還是聯管中心？這對全民要有一個交代，好不好？","另外還有一個很嚴重的，其實飛安是非常嚴肅的，而且規定得非常嚴格。我們來看一下美國FAA的聯邦航空條例裡面規定，如果是雙引擎的飛機發生單發引擎失效，它是明定要選擇「最近的」，所以你是違反這個規定。下面這部分就更明確了，你不能夠憑這些因素就不在最近的機場降落，這有三大理由，這次華航全部都違背了。第一個，你們現在的講法是燃油是足夠的，但是它說要先降落在最近的機場，不能因為你的燃油是足夠的，就要往更遠的地方飛。第二個，除了乘客安全以外的所有安排，因為乘客的安全是最優先的，這個最急迫嘛！對不對？第三個，你不能夠為了修復，雖然回來臺灣修復的成本可能比較低，但是華航的修復成本有比人命更重要嘛！哪個排在前面？你們違反了這三個規定，所以今天，第一個，這個調查大概多久會出來？"],["何局長淑萍：剛剛有提到，因為整個完整的報告還有發動機故障的問題，所以航務的部分我們會有一個初步的報告，我們1個月內會提出來。"],["張委員啓楷：1個月？"],["何局長淑萍：1個月。"],["張委員啓楷：能不能夠再快一點點？這件事情不能再拖了，有兩點很重要，第一個當然就是要追查清楚真相；第二個更重要，因為這種事情絕對不能再發生。"],["何局長淑萍：是。"],["張委員啓楷：甚至你以後一定要貫徹，我們跟美國FAA的標準要是一致的，好不好？你們能不能夠再快一點點？什麼時候可以給我？"],["何局長淑萍：我們儘快好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：不是給我啦！是給交通委員會所有的委員。"],["何局長淑萍：給我們1個月，因為剛剛有講到很多資料我們都要去處理，我們也不是只看華航的資料，所以是不是給我們1個月的時間？"],["張委員啓楷：好，1個月內，必須要公開透明，絕對不要犯同樣的錯誤，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝張啓楷委員。","接下來請邱若華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160829","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160829","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369687cf3d77315a06b385a4fd0f0fffa493679622006e3328b3696169a3617e29d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:42:59 - 12:51:46","影片長度":"00:08:47","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:42:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:51:46+08:00","duration":527,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.334093750000001,"end":19.032218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.57346875,"end":12.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.965343750000002,"end":15.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.11659375,"end":21.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.31034375,"end":21.394718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.394718750000003,"end":21.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.664093750000003,"end":26.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.60909375,"end":50.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.95971875,"end":58.789718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.94159375,"end":63.649718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.26221875,"end":61.000343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.37971875,"end":67.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.49284375,"end":70.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.23096875,"end":76.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.72784375,"end":76.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.79534375,"end":76.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.94721875,"end":79.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.93846875,"end":89.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.41346875,"end":93.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.40471875,"end":93.33284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.75471875000001,"end":101.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.73221875,"end":103.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.39034375,"end":110.81534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.63846875,"end":109.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.25409375000001,"end":122.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.98221875,"end":124.51784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.87221875,"end":125.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.05346875000001,"end":129.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.95159375,"end":132.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.07346875000002,"end":134.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.45721875,"end":140.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.26221875000002,"end":145.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.38784375,"end":147.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.24409375000002,"end":148.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.25659375,"end":153.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.40784375,"end":154.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.97721875000002,"end":155.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.24284375000002,"end":168.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.16909375,"end":173.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.14721875,"end":177.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.46721875,"end":179.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.22221875000002,"end":180.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.47534375,"end":182.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.99409375000002,"end":191.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.05159375000002,"end":193.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.32971875,"end":202.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.91909375,"end":205.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.80034375000002,"end":207.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.35284375,"end":210.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.17096875000001,"end":218.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.39721875,"end":222.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.79784375000003,"end":223.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.96221875,"end":235.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.33596875,"end":239.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.67284375000003,"end":240.53346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.84159375000002,"end":242.65971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.65971875000002,"end":244.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.31784375,"end":245.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.19096875000002,"end":246.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.09784375,"end":248.11034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.32971875,"end":257.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.44221875,"end":264.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.10346875,"end":266.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.14534375,"end":268.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.13659375000003,"end":270.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.22909375,"end":271.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.47784375000003,"end":275.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.26221875000005,"end":285.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.77534375,"end":288.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.04909375,"end":291.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.42409375,"end":293.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.29721875,"end":297.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.04346875000005,"end":300.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.25409375000004,"end":314.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.09971875,"end":316.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.29346875000005,"end":327.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.49034375,"end":335.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.01221875000005,"end":353.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.28784375000004,"end":356.19471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.63346875,"end":364.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.34534375000004,"end":365.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.91471875,"end":365.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.93159375000005,"end":365.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.20159375000003,"end":372.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.52971875000003,"end":372.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.69409375000004,"end":373.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.71096875,"end":379.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.87034375,"end":393.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.80471875,"end":399.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.58034375000005,"end":401.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.70659375,"end":404.67659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.19971875000005,"end":436.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.97534375000004,"end":437.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.21159375,"end":438.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.42221875,"end":447.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.75846875,"end":449.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.47971875,"end":454.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.37346875000003,"end":459.48659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.26284375,"end":480.19221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.47534375000004,"end":477.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.98534375,"end":481.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.01909375,"end":481.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.03596875000005,"end":481.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.87971875000005,"end":492.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.93034375,"end":485.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.54471875,"end":510.46596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.87096875000003,"end":514.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.14034375,"end":515.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.2922187500001,"end":520.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.1140937499999,"end":521.6203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.0590937500001,"end":524.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.0165937500001,"end":525.1472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.4172187500001,"end":525.94034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.489,"end":21.575,"text":"主席在場的委員 先進列席的政府機關市長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士 先生有請我們交通部陳部長還有這個陸政司的黃司長以及我們台鐵公司的吳代理董事長吳代理董事長委員好"},{"start":26.69,"end":49.648,"text":"部長好 董事長好 市長好來 很快的 航商溫室氣體減排破綻媒節燃料加速帶動氫能產業發展來 先問三個地方的問題第一 這是屏東火車站很好 謝謝我們交通部支持現在這個人因為他的我們屏東的很多去搭火車的民眾都是在私營民營的停車場 停好機車就直接進去結果呢 三天就開了670件"},{"start":51.109,"end":67.759,"text":"的行人違規穿越的罰單可不可以請部長指示一下台鐵公司思考一下申請當地的改善一下 可以嗎是 這個可以做啦好 下一點我們跟地方政府大家來討論一下這個部分要怎麼做好 那第二個呢 這是陸正思這是我們在國道3號長治交流在下面"},{"start":68.839,"end":89.185,"text":"這幾天就發生了事故所以是不是可以請你們協同交通主管機關增加照明為用路人按一夜間的安全可以嗎這個已經有事故了我們趕快來改善好 謝謝 第三個之前已經有拿到 您拜託了就是我們台22線離港到高速的道路工程改善請指示一下好不好 我已經發文了他們說還沒得到部長的指示"},{"start":90.57,"end":100.937,"text":"好 這個我們趕快來做好 謝謝 謝謝好 那接下來就是部長的事情來 部長我們輕鬆一點商業上解決自己的問題和解決別人的問題最大差別在哪裡"},{"start":102.822,"end":120.844,"text":"商業上對那我直接告訴你答案啦解決自己的事要花錢啦解決別人的可以賺錢對不對最懂得這個厲害的是什麼呢台灣跟新加坡很懂得幫別人解決問題來賺錢你看一下來我再問一個台灣跟新加坡都不產石油卻有大規模的石化產業你覺得誰的規模比較大"},{"start":123.055,"end":145.203,"text":"猜猜看新加坡跟台灣台灣應該比較大吧新加坡比較大但是沒關係他供應什麼需求我們來看一下新加坡是三大煉油中心之一自己不產油喔但是呢他有金融業他有觀光業還有航運業世界三大煉油中心因為馬來西亞跟印尼有產油國他又是天海遭陸然後呢他是馬來西亞海峽航運的船子都同他經過對不對"},{"start":146.423,"end":168.463,"text":"那台灣呢 那往下看 台灣 新加坡的船舶不多 他只有船舶只有全世界運能的1.3%但是呢 他是去路過的 路過的船舶 他別人要的他都幫他供應了相對的台灣 自己用石化業創造出來的石化原料不僅自製造業用 也給人家什麼 出口 對不對所以台灣跟新加坡都很會賺錢 往下看"},{"start":169.232,"end":177.357,"text":"那請問一下新加坡和台灣的航運船隊分別在哪裡補給燃料新加坡不用講嘛 就在自己家裡嘛那台灣呢 下一頁台灣在哪裡"},{"start":180.633,"end":205.475,"text":"台灣也可以補給燃料台灣 我跟你講 你看一看台灣目前我們十二大航商當中我們佔了七十 十一我們的總的運能佔全世界將近一成我們很大的船隊 對不對人家說 如果台海運輸中斷 佔五分之一會影響中央經濟表示什麼 有五分之一的航船要從台灣海峽經過 對不對所以台灣的船是不是在台灣自己加油"},{"start":211.502,"end":218.591,"text":"現在為了低碳而產生的輕能產業除了發電 工業製造還有運輸您覺得台灣哪一個部份的應用最迫切"},{"start":222.852,"end":238.321,"text":"發電嗎 工業製造嗎 低碳就是氫能產業 氫能可以發電 氫能可以供應那個工業製造的熱能 氫能還可以供應運輸 運輸有陸海空請問是高鐵還是捷運要用到氫能 還是我們的飛機要用到氫能 還是航運 三個猜一個"},{"start":239.922,"end":266.081,"text":"最迫切的現在公車也可以然後最迫切的會是哪一個船也可以對沒有錯船最迫切好我們來看一下陸海空三者當中呢航運的最迫切我們看下一頁其實啊IMO國際海事組織已經要求到二零二八年起你如果沒有用低碳燃料你會增加到一百元美金到三百八十美金這樣額外的支出航商是不是很迫切"},{"start":267.159,"end":292.956,"text":"航商很迫切 迫切需要什麼 迫切需要低碳燃料 我們等一下看長榮在去年已經買了20艘1.6萬吋的甲醇雙糧號船 低碳他在今年要再買11艘LNG的雙燃料船萬海也宣布他要用深圳燃料 他要減少20的排碳量是不是航運 台灣的航運很積極好 那請問他們的雙元 他們的多元燃料在哪裡加再給你等一下看"},{"start":294.389,"end":316.5,"text":"陽明海運到韓國去加生子燃油啊新加坡利用他的地緣優勢他也不產油他就幫全世界路過的船舶加油現在未來的船舶要用低碳的多元燃料我們台灣可不可能幫台灣自己的船隊跟經過台灣海峽的船隊添加多元的低碳燃料有沒有可能"},{"start":318.405,"end":347.125,"text":"是 報告員台灣當然也會建置這個啦目前甲醇我們設定是在高雄港那LNG的部分我們目前跟中油來配合可能是在永安港但是甲醇跟LNG都是過渡型的終究低碳跟無碳的一定是用不是用藍氫也不是用灰氫會用綠氫那台灣自己的綠能不夠一定要從其他國家進口綠能的原料透過液態氫或是氨我問過好幾次了所以大家都以為今天氫能"},{"start":347.845,"end":372.317,"text":"是經濟部在主管是國發會在主管是能源組在主管我要告訴你是交通部在主管所以部長我之前問過你很多次我們台灣的港部設施是不是有積極的在佈建未來船隊要添加多元燃料這樣的設備有沒有指示了報告委員這個目前都在規劃但您所提的這個氫能目前以船來說技術還沒成熟"},{"start":373.752,"end":393.73,"text":"技術還沒成熟2028就要開始了我們這個基礎設施不是今天想到明天就可以做好2035你要用的事情現在2025就要開始準備到2035的時候台灣本身的氫能部件我們的綠能的風電離岸風電的發展已經會超越我們發電的需求我再講一次"},{"start":394.844,"end":413.359,"text":"台灣目前的綠能發展離岸風電它在我們的綠電在我們能源占比電力的占比當中因為它的發電跟蓄電的匹配的錯位它在發電的高峰期超過了我們的電力需求它一定要把這個綠電轉化為氫能氫能怎麼樣最能配合台灣的需求"},{"start":414.299,"end":436.078,"text":"幫路過的船舶添加低碳燃料所以我們要比照石化業開始去思考台灣作為一個不產石油的地方台灣作為一個綠能相對不足的地方我們要進口綠能來煉製船舶多元低碳燃料來供應我們的船隊跟其他國家的船隊使用幫別人解決問題是才會賺錢好 最後的結論是這樣"},{"start":439.468,"end":459.313,"text":"要符合IMO温室地體減排措施未來台灣的航商能在台灣加注低碳或無碳燃料嗎這個部分我們當然要朝這個方向努力目標什麼時候您覺得我們要一個中長城計畫2035年可不可以具備低碳的部分我們目前正在準備已經有在準備高雄港跟永安港的部分"},{"start":460.342,"end":479.97,"text":"是所以呢運用台灣海峽的運量優勢也運用我們本國船隊的自有需求優勢是不是交通部你要把低碳燃料定價美國在發展輕能先定價你不定價人家不會來投資你知道嗎CIP現在的全國全球的佈局請問這位在你旁邊的是哪一位主管"},{"start":481.973,"end":510.128,"text":"韓市長韓市長嘛韓市長是航運行政司嘛所以你要告訴部長CIP根本哈根基金他們目前也在台灣負責台灣最大的風產跟離岸風電他們在全世界部件離岸風電他們的目標離岸風電超過當地的電力需求轉為煉低碳的多元燃料幫國際的船舶加油我們希望未來他也選擇在台灣設置這樣的煉青廠幫低碳燃料的船舶加油可以嗎"},{"start":510.928,"end":525.528,"text":"好那部長那什麼時候可以告訴我們航政司會開始來做這個事情請交通部將低碳燃料定價藉由航運的燃料加注業務帶動台灣的輕能產業發展可以嗎好可以我們一個月之內提出書面市長可以嗎好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1024,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時42分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請我們交通部陳部長，還有路政司黃司長，以及我們臺鐵公司的伍代理董事長。"],["主席：請陳部長、黃司長、伍代理董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、董事長好、司長好。航商溫室氣體減排迫在眉睫，燃料加速帶動氫能產業發展。來，先問三個地方的問題，第一，這是屏東火車站，很好，謝謝我們交通部支持。現在我們屏東很多去搭車的民眾都是在私營、民營的停車場停好機車就直接進去，結果3天就開了670件行人違規穿越的罰單，可不可以請部長指示臺鐵公司思考一下，申請當地來改善一下，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這個可以做，我們跟地方政府大家來討論一下這個部分要怎麼做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。第二個問題請教路政司，這是國道三號長治交流道下面，這幾天就發生了事故，所以是不是可以請你們協同交通主管機關增加照明，維護用路人夜間的安全，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個已經有事故了，我們趕快來改善。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。第三個，之前已經有跟你拜託了，就是台22線里港到高樹路段的道路工程改善，請指示一下，好不好？我已經發文了，他們說還沒得到部長的指示。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們趕快來做，這個可以啦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。好，接下來就是部長的事情。來，部長，我們輕鬆一點，商業上解決自己的問題和解決別人的問題，最大的差別在哪裡？我直接告訴你答案，解決自己的問題要花錢，解決別人的問題可以賺錢，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最懂得這個厲害的是什麼呢？臺灣跟新加坡，很懂得幫別人解決問題來賺錢，你看一下。來，我再問一個，臺灣跟新加坡都不產石油，卻有大規模的石化產業，你覺得誰的規模比較大？猜猜看。"],["陳部長世凱：臺灣應該比較大吧。"],["鍾委員佳濱：新加坡比較大。但是沒關係，它供應什麼需求？我們來看一下，新加坡是三大煉油中心之一，自己不產油，但是它有金融業，它有觀光業，還有航運業，它是世界三大煉油中心之一，因為附近有馬來西亞跟印尼等產油國，它又是填海造陸，又位於麻六甲海峽，航運的船隻都從新加坡經過，對不對？那臺灣呢？新加坡的船舶不多，他們的自有船舶只有全世界運能的1.3%，但是路過的船舶需要的，新加坡都幫忙供應了，相對地，臺灣自己用石化業創造出來的石化原料，不僅製造業用，也出口給人家，對不對？所以臺灣跟新加坡都很會賺錢。請問一下，新加坡和臺灣都有航運船隊，分別在哪裡補給燃料？新加坡不用講，就在自己家裡嘛。那臺灣呢？臺灣在哪裡補給燃料？"],["陳部長世凱：臺灣也可以補給燃料。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我跟你講，你看一看，目前12大航商當中，我們臺灣的就占了第七、第十、第十一，我們的總運能占全世界將近一成，我們有很大的船隊，對不對？人家說，臺海運輸占全球五分之一，如果中斷會重創經濟，這表示什麼？有五分之一的航船要從臺灣海峽經過，對不對？所以臺灣的船是不是在臺灣自己加油？現在為了低碳而產生氫能產業，除了發電、工業製造，還有運輸，您覺得臺灣哪一個部分的應用最迫切？發電嗎？工業製造嗎？低碳就是氫能產業，氫能可以發電，也可以供應工業製造的熱能，氫能還可以供應運輸，運輸有陸、海、空，請問是高鐵還是捷運要用到氫能？還是我們的飛機要用到氫能？還是航運？猜一個，三個猜一個，最迫切的會是哪一個？"],["陳部長世凱：現在公車也可以，然後船也可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，沒有錯，船最迫切。我們來看一下，陸、海、空三者當中，航運最迫切。其實IMO國際海事組織已經要求，從2028年起如果沒有用低碳燃料，會增加100元美金到380元美金的額外支出，航商是不是很迫切？航商很迫切，迫切需要什麼？迫切需要低碳燃料。長榮在去年已經買了20艘1.6萬TEU甲醇雙燃料船，今年又要再買11艘LNG雙燃料船，萬海也宣布要用生質燃料，要減少20%的排碳量，是不是臺灣的航運很積極？好，那請問他們的多元燃料在哪裡加？陽明海運到韓國去加生質燃料，新加坡利用它的地緣優勢，它也不產油，它就幫全世界路過的船舶加油，現在未來的船舶要用低碳的多元燃料，我們臺灣可不可能幫臺灣自己的船隊跟經過臺灣海峽的船隊添加多元的低碳燃料？有沒有可能？"],["陳部長世凱：是。報告委員，臺灣當然也會建置這個，目前我們設定甲醇是在高雄港，LNG的部分我們目前跟中油來配合，可能設在永安港。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是甲醇跟LNG都是過渡型的，終究低碳跟無碳的不是用藍氫，也不是用灰氫，會用綠氫，那臺灣自己的綠能不夠，一定要從其他國家進口綠能的原料，透過液態氫或是氨，我問過好幾次了，所以大家都以為今天氫能是經濟部在主管，是國發會在主管，是能源署在主管，我要告訴你，這是交通部在主管，所以部長，我之前有沒有問過你很多次？我們臺灣的港埠設施是不是有積極在布建未來船隊要添加多元燃料這樣的設備？有沒有？有沒有指示了？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個目前都在規劃，但是你所提的這個氫能，目前以船來說，技術還沒成熟。"],["鍾委員佳濱：技術還沒成熟？2028年就要開始了，這個基礎設施不是今天想到，明天就可以做好，2035年要用的事情，現在2025年就要開始準備，到了2035年的時候，臺灣本身的氫能布建及綠能的離岸風電發展已經會超越我們的發電需求。我再講一次，目前臺灣的綠能發展、離岸風電，它在我們的能源占比、電力占比當中，因為它的發電跟蓄電的匹配錯位，它在發電的高峰期會超過我們的電力需求，它一定要把這個綠電轉換成氫能，氫能怎麼樣最能配合臺灣的需求？就是幫路過的船舶添加低碳燃料，所以我們要比照石化業開始去思考，臺灣做為一個不產石油的地方，臺灣做為一個綠能相對不足的地方，我們要進口綠能來煉製船舶多元低碳燃料，以供應我們的船隊跟其他國家的船隊使用，幫別人解決問題是不是才會賺錢？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，最後的結論是這樣，要符合IMO溫室氣體減排措施，未來臺灣的航商能在臺灣加注低碳或無碳燃料嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們當然要朝這個方向努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目標是什麼時候？我們要有一個中長程的計畫，2035年可不可以具備？"],["陳部長世凱：低碳的部分目前我們正在準備，已經有在準備，就是高雄港和永安港的部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，所以我們要運用臺灣海峽的運量優勢，也要運用我們本國船隊的自我需求優勢，交通部是不是要把低碳燃料定價？美國在發展氫能時都是先定價，你不定價，人家就不會來投資，你知道嗎？現在CIP的全球布局，請問在你旁邊的這位是哪一位主管？"],["陳部長世凱：韓司長。"],["主席：韓司長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：韓司長主管航政司嘛！所以你要告訴部長，哥本哈根基礎建設基金（CIP）目前也在負責臺灣最大的風場跟離岸風電，他們在全世界布建離岸風電，他們有一個目標，就是當離岸風電超過當地的電力需求時，要轉為煉製低碳的多元燃料，幫國際的船舶加油，我們希望未來它也可以選擇在臺灣設置這樣的煉氫廠，幫低碳燃料的船舶加油，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那部長什麼時候可以告訴我們，航政司會開始來做這件事情？請交通部將低碳燃料定價，藉由航運燃料加注業務帶動臺灣的氫能產業發展，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：可以，我們會在1個月內提出書面報告給委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：司長，可以嗎？"],["韓司長振華：是，可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","現在請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160827","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160827","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369f1b10be0ccf0f37c8b6df88a6e7dffca98ab4b80bc74e67d94c2a44ecd674d185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"12:46:33 - 12:57:33","影片長度":"00:11:00","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場(廠)墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:46:33+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:57:33+08:00","duration":660,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.3134687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.53284375,"end":3.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.126593750000001,"end":9.869093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.902843750000002,"end":11.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.379093750000003,"end":15.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.767218750000001,"end":14.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.745968750000003,"end":15.539093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.43346875,"end":17.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.48409375,"end":16.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.63596875,"end":17.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.05784375,"end":17.074718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.32346875,"end":19.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.70284375,"end":22.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.17096875,"end":22.187843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.187843750000003,"end":22.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.58846875,"end":23.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.60534375,"end":25.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.74409375,"end":34.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.759718750000005,"end":38.759093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.13034375,"end":39.501593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.88971875,"end":40.885343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.90221875,"end":41.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.775343750000005,"end":52.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.48409375,"end":43.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.25471875,"end":54.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.469718750000006,"end":57.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.09346875000001,"end":60.257843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.320968750000006,"end":66.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.36221875000001,"end":71.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.83409375000001,"end":73.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.79971875000001,"end":77.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.58846875,"end":79.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.59221875,"end":82.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.47346875000001,"end":85.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.03034375,"end":85.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.84034375,"end":86.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.78534375000001,"end":100.69034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.51721875000001,"end":103.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.94284375000001,"end":117.17721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.41346875,"end":120.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.41721875,"end":128.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.06159375000001,"end":132.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.05221875,"end":173.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.09659375,"end":184.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.96409375000002,"end":189.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.11096875,"end":190.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.34284375000001,"end":193.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.43096875,"end":207.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.45909375000002,"end":203.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.47596875000002,"end":203.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.49284375000002,"end":204.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.84659375,"end":207.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.88034375,"end":207.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.99846875,"end":208.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.11659375000002,"end":208.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.26846875,"end":208.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.45409375000003,"end":208.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.50034375,"end":210.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.44096875000002,"end":213.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.46159375000002,"end":229.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.73346875000001,"end":237.19221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.00221875000003,"end":241.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.03096875000003,"end":244.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.11096875,"end":260.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.00284375,"end":266.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.27596875,"end":271.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.34721875,"end":280.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.23596875000004,"end":290.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.94721875,"end":311.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.96971875,"end":311.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.18909375000004,"end":311.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.96534375000005,"end":317.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.87159375000005,"end":328.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":328.94159375000004,"end":347.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.51659375,"end":353.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.37221875,"end":354.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.62096875000003,"end":356.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":359.35034375000004,"end":374.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.28596875000005,"end":366.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":374.63909375000003,"end":381.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.43971875,"end":404.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.03096875,"end":406.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.52846875,"end":408.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.43096875000003,"end":424.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.48784375,"end":427.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.25096875,"end":432.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.82409375000003,"end":433.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.56659375000004,"end":435.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.30034375,"end":438.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.79784375,"end":447.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.93534375,"end":453.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":453.34409375,"end":453.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.57596875,"end":454.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":454.67721875,"end":455.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":455.48721875,"end":474.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.56034375,"end":474.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.31534375,"end":475.87221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.86784375,"end":477.20534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.74534375,"end":481.35659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.09909375,"end":483.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.98909375000005,"end":484.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.44034375,"end":487.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.32596875,"end":489.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.43534375,"end":491.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.66284375000004,"end":497.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.75034375,"end":503.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.95221875000004,"end":505.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.34846875000005,"end":508.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.86284375,"end":511.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.32221875,"end":513.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.7565937500001,"end":515.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.91221875,"end":520.1184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":521.1984687500001,"end":522.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.2065937500001,"end":536.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":537.8203437500001,"end":540.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":541.24596875,"end":568.1615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":566.3390937500001,"end":577.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":577.2065937500001,"end":577.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.25721875,"end":577.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":577.3078437500001,"end":577.8815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.8815937500001,"end":578.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":578.13471875,"end":579.1303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.19784375,"end":585.6103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.13346875,"end":595.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.3428437499999,"end":596.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.54096875,"end":598.8403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":598.8403437500001,"end":640.5047187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.4622187500001,"end":656.2490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.5990937500001,"end":658.25721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.437,"end":25.29,"text":"請部長好,謝謝主席請部長,有要叫別人嗎?指南署長也來好了來,署長來表演好,部長好部長回答或署長回答都可以齁"},{"start":27.326,"end":51.174,"text":"我們在2023年的重大職災死亡的人數大概總共有300個人以產業比來看營造業的死亡人數佔比超過50%有151個人以災害的類型來看是以墜落滾落導致死亡的人數也高達47%那"},{"start":55.451,"end":82.182,"text":"職安署的資料是這樣子,就五年來營造工程業佔職災死亡的人數大概都是近五成的職安署也把營造工程業列為重點稽查的對象是什麼原因造成營造業的職災死亡人數高居不下"},{"start":84.88,"end":103.474,"text":"蘇長回答好了跟委員報告營造業他的工作樣態跟一般的工廠廠長是不一樣因為他每天的這個作業非常多的包商同時在作業那他之間的施工的界面勞工跟勞工或是包商跟包商之間"},{"start":104.994,"end":132.265,"text":"大概目前主要的問題是在現場的一個統合管理的部分造成這個它的一個風險一直存在所以會造成說這個第一線的作業勞工或許他不曉得因為他今天進來不曉得昨天的這個包商把哪一些安全防護做了移除他都不曉得所以這個部分目前在這個營造業裡面它是最大的風險是在這個地方好 那署長既然知道原因那你們有沒有減災的策略"},{"start":134.29,"end":152.708,"text":"跟委員報告在策略部分我想還是要從法制面那目前我們也檢討目前在整個最上位的這個治安法看起來是在規定上是有一些漏洞所以我們目前是要去補這個每一層的包商都要去管理他現場的這個負責管理他現場的公安"},{"start":153.208,"end":170.456,"text":"那執行面的部分大概我們現在也去調整一些做法就是說我們在這個整個比較過去比較高違規的或高職災的這些工地列管然後頻率甚至說它這一兩年來發生兩線職災我們就會把它當作每個月去檢查一次這個執行面我們這邊也在做"},{"start":174.258,"end":192.771,"text":"再來就是教育訓練的部分,那我想剛剛委員都提到這個部份怎麼去加強基層勞工的安全衛生的資能,這個部份我們也在努力所以剛剛講的三個策略,其中有一個是修法,那修法的部份你們有什麼時候會提出來?"},{"start":195.229,"end":207.762,"text":"修法的部分我們其實已經送行政院了那應該是接下來會在行政院的法治程序裡面我們希望也可以盡快的審議那看能不能在這個會期我們希望能夠送到立法院裡面"},{"start":211.499,"end":236.925,"text":"有學者分析近年的職業災害的案例針對營建業的最多關鍵危害的因素提出了大概剛剛署長也都講了我還是希望你們能夠就工地設施的配置不大"},{"start":238.189,"end":266.011,"text":"還有工地本體防護不足跟沒有安全設施工地設施性能跟強度不足這三點還是必須要在不管法制面的健全也好現場的的勞動檢查也好必須要注意到所以這是弱勢面的部分?對營造業的重大職災案件中又以臨時工"},{"start":268.325,"end":290.455,"text":"跟其他工種譬如說其他工種就是像清潔沒有辦法歸納的以這種臨時性的勞動力算是危害最高我不知道像臨時性的治安署這邊要怎麼提升治安的觀念跟訓練"},{"start":293.247,"end":315.34,"text":"跟委員報告 確實在一個工地裡面有時候有十幾個包商的勞工都在現場那這個時候呢 我們認為管理上就是最上包這個大包就是營造廠 他要負責這個任務所以工地裡面 不管進到他的場域裡面他都要負責這個職業災害的防止者我知道 我是說 因為臨時工 他可能就是"},{"start":317.941,"end":344.915,"text":"不是非常在這個領域工作嗎?臨時工進來特定的場域你們有沒有什麼特別的職安觀念的訓練?是,確實因為如果是非常小的包商他有可能是只有一位到兩位這個部分就現在在部裡面這邊就要推動所謂的職安卡的教育訓練就是說這些無一定雇主勞工,甚至我們都補助經費,上六小時的課程"},{"start":346.196,"end":373.875,"text":"來強化他們的安全衛生的知識那像這一類的臨時工你們怎麼監督營造業投保 自災保險跟委員報告確實我們目前還是希望剛剛提到的這個最上位這個包商他在做入場管制的時候必須要去查到底這個今天進來的這些所有的工人"},{"start":374.756,"end":403.095,"text":"作為勞工是不是有投勞保或是投災保那個目前我們是要求最上包營造廠要善盡這個責任就是還是以最上面的包廂為主還是要去落實啦因為工作的性質特別是以臨時工來講這個在經濟上通常是比較弱勢這個第一點第二就是他對工作的場域比較不熟悉所以更需要保險的支持"},{"start":407.63,"end":407.851,"text":"我們依據"},{"start":410.672,"end":431.88,"text":"職業安全衛生法的相關規定除了政府機關或5人以下的事業單位以外大概都必須要設置職安衛生管理人員我們現在是30人以上的事業單位依照規定必須要設置而且必須要報勞檢機構備查"},{"start":436.508,"end":453.107,"text":"請問一下現在我們超過5人未滿30人因為他有級距的規定超過5人未滿30人的事業單位我們是怎麼確保或查核他有相關的設置"},{"start":454.619,"end":471.575,"text":"案件人員跟委員報告確實這個小微型企業30年以下目前法令沒有規定說一定要通報但是呢我們在這個規定上不一定說他這個這麼小還要在另外設一個老年人由雇主本身去接受20個小時訓練他還是可以擔任這個老年人"},{"start":477.847,"end":486.293,"text":"我們現在是這樣子齁就是剛才是5人以上30人未滿現在問的是30人以上100人這個級距按照勞動檢查的統計2023的統計數字在30到100人的製造業已經有設置"},{"start":506.36,"end":514.967,"text":"安全衛生人員的業者大概是七成七非營造業大概是六成四我請問一下這個設置比例"},{"start":521.666,"end":536.656,"text":"這個數字假如是對的原因在哪裡就是為什麼還有製造業還有大概兩成多然後非製造業還有大概三分之一沒有設置原因是什麼"},{"start":538.204,"end":556.48,"text":"跟委員報告確實那個勞安人員或職安人員他基本上也是會做一些異動那他有時候是因為在等待上課因為他這個我們外界的這個訓練的訓練單位他的班並不是每個禮拜開班所以他會因為"},{"start":557.58,"end":585.16,"text":"這個部分他需要去配合這個上課時間所以在這個時間如果被我們檢查到的話我們就會認定說你現在是沒有設置就是有的時候會有空窗期啦就是他的原本的人走了然後應該補的人就是可能還沒有取得資格署長的意思是不是這樣有部分是這樣有部分是這樣那個柯文我覺得這個比率是真的有要大幅提高的對的必要啦"},{"start":586.221,"end":603.218,"text":"那我是認為這個這都是法規上面的要求那把法規上的要求必須做到那我覺得這部分我會來加強要求那最後用時間的關係所以我就直接講了就是"},{"start":604.679,"end":628.695,"text":"部長曾經有講過就是勞檢人員其實工作很辛苦啦那勞動條件跟職業安全衛生的法令能不能落實其實跟勞檢人員息息相關那希望部長能夠在比較短的時間之內看如何讓我們因為我們的勞檢人力其實一直是有"},{"start":629.896,"end":654.711,"text":"有不足的那不足的原因大概部長也都知道那希望部長能夠部長也有講過考慮提高薪資也好加上9任的獎金也好這個相關的工作可以做的請部裡面這邊盡速進行好不好謝謝部長謝謝署長也謝謝主席好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":931,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（12時46分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。還要不要叫別人？"],["楊委員曜：職安署長也來好了。"],["主席：來，署長。"],["洪部長申翰：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。部長回答或署長回答都可以。我們在2023年重大職災死亡人數大概總共有300個人，以產業別來看，營造業的死亡人數占比超過50%，有151個人；以災害的類型來看，墜落、滾落導致死亡的人數也高達47%。職安署的資料是這樣子，這5年來營造工程業職災死亡的人數占比大概都是將近五成，職安署也把營造工程業列為重點稽查的對象，是什麼原因造成營造業的職災死亡人數居高不下？署長回答好了。"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，營造業的工作樣態跟一般的工廠、場（廠）是不一樣的，因為每天作業有非常多包商同時在作業，施工的介面、勞工跟勞工之間或是包商跟包商之間，大概目前主要的問題是在現場的統合管理部分，造成風險一直存在，所以第一線的作業勞工或許不曉得狀況，他今天進來，不曉得昨天的包商把哪一些安全防護移除，他都不曉得，所以這個部分目前在營造業裡面，最大的風險是在這個地方。"],["楊委員曜：好，署長既然知道原因，那你們有沒有減災的策略？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，減災策略的部分，我想還是要從法制面著手，目前我們也檢討在最上位的職安法，看起來在規定上是有一些漏洞，所以我們目前也是要去補這些漏洞，要求每一層的包商都要負責管理現場的工安。執行面的部分，我們現在也去調整一些做法，我們將過去比較高違規或高職災的這些工地列管，然後檢查職災頻率，甚至說這一、兩年來發生兩件職災，我們就會每個月去檢查一次，這個執行面我們這邊有在做。再來就是教育訓練的部分，剛剛委員也都提到這個部分怎麼去加強基層勞工安全衛生的知能，這個部分我們也在努力。"],["楊委員曜：所以署長剛剛講的三個策略，其中有一個是修法，修法的部分你們什麼時候會提出來？"],["洪部長申翰：修法的部分，我們其實已經送行政院了，接下來應該會在行政院的法制程序裡面，我們也希望可以儘快審議，看看能不能在這個會期送到立法院。"],["楊委員曜：好。有學者分析近年的職業災害案例，針對營建業提出最關鍵的危害因素，大概剛剛署長也都講了，但我還是希望你們能夠就工地設施配置不當、工地本體防護不足或沒有安全設施、工地設施性能強度不足這三點，不論是法制面的健全也好、現場的勞動檢查也好，都必須要注意到。"],["洪部長申翰：是，這是落實面的部分。"],["楊委員曜：對，營造業的重大職災案件中又以臨時工跟其他工種，所謂其他工種就比如清潔等沒有辦法歸納的，這種臨時性的勞動力算是危害最高的，請問對這種臨時性的勞工，職安署這邊要怎麼提升職安的觀念跟訓練？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，有時候在一個工地裡面確實會有十幾個包商的勞工在現場，在這個時候，我們認為在管理上是最上包這個大包，也就是營造廠要負責這個任務，所以不管是誰進到工地裡面、場域裡面，他都要負起防止職業災害的責任。"],["楊委員曜：我知道，我的意思是因為臨時工他可能是非常態在這個領域工作，所以對臨時工進到特定的場域，你們有沒有什麼特別的職安觀念訓練？"],["林署長毓堂：確實，如果是非常小的包商，他有可能只有一位到兩位，對這個部分，現在部裡面就要推動所謂職安卡的教育訓練，就是對這些無一定雇主的勞工，我們甚至都補助經費讓他們上6小時的課程，來強化他們的安全衛生知識。"],["楊委員曜：像這一類的臨時工，你們怎麼監督營造業投保職災保險？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，我們目前還是希望剛剛提到的最上位這個包商在做入場管制的時候，必須要去查今天進來的所有作業的工人到底有沒有投勞保或災保，目前我們是要求最上包的營造廠要善盡這個責任。"],["楊委員曜：就是還是以最上面的包商為主，還是要去落實啦！因為工作的性質，特別是以臨時工來講，第一個、他們在經濟上通常是比較弱勢的；第二個、他對工作的場域比較不熟悉，所以更需要保險的支持，好不好？","依據職業安全衛生法相關規定，除了政府機關或是5人以下的事業單位以外，大概都必須要設置職安衛生管理人員。依據現行規定，30人以上的事業單位必須要設置，而且必須要報勞檢機構備查，請問現在對於超過5人未滿30人的事業單位，我們如何確保或查核他有無設置相關的安檢人員？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，對於這類30人以下的小微型企業，確實目前法令沒有規定一定要通報，但是在規定上，不一定說這麼小的企業還要再另外設一個勞安檢人員，由雇主本身去接受20個小時訓練，他是可以擔任這個勞安檢的。"],["楊委員曜：好。剛才問的是5人以上30人未滿的企業，現在問的是30人以上到100人這個級距的，按照勞動檢查2023年的統計數字，在30人到100人的製造業中，已設置安全衛生人員的業者比率大概是七成七，非營造業大概是六成四，請問一下，這個設置比率的數字假如是對的，為什麼製造業還有大概兩成多、非製造業還有大概三分之一沒有設置？原因是什麼？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，勞安人員或職安人員基本上也會異動，有時候是因為在等待上課，因為外界的訓練單位並不是每個禮拜開班，他需要去配合上課時間，若是在這段時間被我們檢查到的話，我們就會認定現在是沒有設置的。"],["楊委員曜：有的時候會有空窗期啦！就是原本這個職位的人走了，該補的人可能還沒有取得資格，署長的意思是不是這樣？"],["林署長毓堂：有部分是這樣。"],["楊委員曜：有部分是這樣？"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得這個比率是真的有要大幅提高的必要，我是認為這都是法規上面的要求，法規上的要求就必須做到，這部分我會來加強要求。"],["楊委員曜：最後一點，因為時間的關係，我就直接講了。就是部長曾經講過勞檢人員其實工作很辛苦，勞動條件跟職業安全衛生的法規能不能落實，其實跟勞檢員息息相關，希望部長能夠在比較短的時間之內看看如何解決，因為我們的勞檢人力其實一直是有不足的，原因大概部長也都知道，部長也有講過會考慮不論是提高薪資或久任獎金，相關措施可以做的，請部裡面這邊儘速進行，好不好？謝謝部長，謝謝署長，謝謝主席。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席（楊委員曜代）：接下來請陳瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}},{"id":"160826","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160826","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369b8bebbd6bea21cb63c0ba1d923b4b8db98ab4b80bc74e67d2beb4618946eee9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:48:42 - 12:54:34","影片長度":"00:05:52","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:48:42+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:54:34+08:00","duration":352,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.0553437500000005,"end":8.805968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.10034375,"end":15.117218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.117218750000003,"end":15.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.15096875,"end":15.977843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.06221875,"end":64.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.51034375,"end":92.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.18409375,"end":73.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.46034375,"end":89.53596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.83971875,"end":89.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.80971875,"end":99.42471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.98159375,"end":106.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.96784375,"end":129.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.09284375000001,"end":117.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.79971875,"end":139.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.69284375,"end":145.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.64534375,"end":158.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.28034375000001,"end":167.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.97096875,"end":171.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.27846875,"end":174.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.26096875000002,"end":181.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.84659375,"end":222.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.62909375,"end":239.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.40346875,"end":235.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.50409375,"end":308.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.53721875000002,"end":244.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.83659375000002,"end":245.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.72659375,"end":248.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.16096875000002,"end":249.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.72534375000004,"end":324.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.96409375,"end":320.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.17034375000003,"end":325.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.97596875,"end":327.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.13159375000004,"end":335.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.70096875,"end":330.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.93221875,"end":351.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.10909375,"end":337.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.66096875,"end":342.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.34846875,"end":344.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.02284375000005,"end":350.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.14909375,"end":352.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.27971875000003,"end":353.05596875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.066,"end":15.635,"text":"好 謝謝主席那有請部長 陳部長委員好好"},{"start":16.155,"end":34.952,"text":"部長午安關於今天審動保法的部分其實我知道農業部在相關事情上真的已經做了非常非常多努力可是我想我們人力的不足量能的不足其實可能還是農業部最需要積極協助的地方我們來看一下關於這個動保這個我想這個遊蕩犬的事情野生動物跟人之間的衝突的案件我就不再多說"},{"start":35.712,"end":63.982,"text":"那我知道目前全国超过14万只这件事情非常的困难那有很多老师也提醒我们相关的动物学家生态学家都认为目前热区的管理强度不够那我知道其实农业部真的有一直一直很努力那之前张阿玲委员跟洪山汉委员现在劳动部长他们在相关的事情上部长也已经给了积极的承诺但我知道目前还有一些事情还没有达成进度未明这个部分要不要让部长来说明一下"},{"start":64.582,"end":91.467,"text":"我想有關於這邊所提到的有關於生態熱區的禁止餵養的部分我們現在已經在所謂的自然的保育區這個部分都已經在做了先會擦牌子先會擦牌子然後宣導以後就會開始禁止然後生態熱區的部分是在流浪犬的部分因為那時候因為太多的這些有愛心人士去飼養的時候會讓牠群聚所以我們在生態熱區我會先要求"},{"start":93.167,"end":116.625,"text":"它不能餵養然後你那個TNR的部分的回制的部分我們也不會回到生態熱區來確保整個生態熱區的一個支柱的一個控制大概目前是這樣子好 這樣看起來確實是有相關的進度那我們來看一下其實另外一個問題是人權衝突熱區目前我們當然有相關的訴求然後也有相關的法規範"},{"start":117.486,"end":142.063,"text":"可是我們現在看到的困境是說有沒有辦法設立宣導期期滿的時候再強行執法或者是挑選比較嚴重的前幾區所謂的人權衝突熱區優先執行因為它有跟林保署有關然後也有跟動保司有關那我們認為應該是要動保司來主責這個業務我不知道部長你們人權衝突的部分基本上還是動保司在主責"},{"start":143.144,"end":167.152,"text":"然後剛才也特別提到就是說特別是我們現在也請地方政府去提報一些可能的人權衝突的熱區那這個熱區列出來了以後第一個就是餵養的部分我們會去先導然後剛才也聞提到就是說今天餵養如果造成這些被餵養的狗造成一些人權傷害的時候那餵養的人他負有責任"},{"start":168.312,"end":192.547,"text":"我們也希望都透過這樣的宣導讓餵養的頻度跟比例可以下降因為現在在這個時間點用強制禁止餵養可能在現階段還不大容易執行而且也不大符合我們一般人的生活樣態所以我剛剛的建議是說我們因為我現在看了一下你們去年有框出一個所謂的優先補助管制熱區然後有包含生態熱區總共有204個村裡"},{"start":195.149,"end":222.097,"text":"那既然生態熱區我們有加強規範那人權熱區我們認為應該要加入可是我認為立刻執法的困境是有的如同部長您剛剛說的所以我在想那個宣導期我們可以怎麼去抓這個宣導期然後期滿再來執行或者是我們找出我們認為最嚴重的五個或十個先做如果是這個方向會不會讓你們在人力上或是相關的執法上不大有困難但真的有實體推進其實民眾也會有感"},{"start":222.737,"end":239.231,"text":"我們也非常希望說如果有意願先走的縣市我們會跟縣市討論我們可以當作幾個縣市或幾個縣市裡面的村裡先執行那有相關好的成果再去推動的話會比較快一點這個後續我想我們會跟縣市政府來挑幾個來重要的來做"},{"start":239.531,"end":265.35,"text":"好那我們就下一張那聽起來部長其實是有明白而且知道可以怎麼跟縣市政府溝通那我們就希望兩個月內有相關的規劃跟進度報告可以嗎好謝謝部長好我只剩一分鐘最後我想要談一談上個禮拜四月二十一在花蓮濁西所發生的黑熊射殺事件那當時林保署四月二十三號的新聞稿說黑熊雖然有列明所謂的瀕臨絕種野生動物可是數量很多說已經沒有瀕臨絕種之餘了說近年來數量已經變多了"},{"start":268.092,"end":286.224,"text":"可是其實很多生態學者老師就說林保署你要沒有確切的族群數量你不能用所謂的募集率還有活動範圍就做出這樣的宣稱很多生態學者專家告訴大家應該要更謹慎來看這件事情但是我必須還是要肯定林保署在這幾年推動所謂"},{"start":287.145,"end":304.333,"text":"黑熊通報生態給付這件事情的成果可是我還是要說在這一次所謂非熱區非自然保護的山區野生動物跟人類之間的接觸越來越頻繁要如何進行環境管理減少衝突和平相處這些事情我不知道農業部這邊後續會不會有更多的做法跟討論我們辦公室可以持續來追蹤"},{"start":308.815,"end":327.01,"text":"可以我想先說明一下就是當初講到就是有一些說已經沒有瀕臨絕種的事其實他是回應很多人是擔心他絕種是不是說想要把他瀕臨絕種降級啦是不是降級的概念所以不會有降級的問題沒有降級的問題是擔心有人擔心說"},{"start":328.371,"end":344.759,"text":"是不是還會瀕臨啊我們是用鼓勵的就是朝正面的角度去思考因為這樣租金的數量有增加好聽起來這樣我們就比較放心那至於後續我們還有哪些事情可以去處理這個我剛剛提出來這些問題那因為今天時間有限我們辦公室之後會再跟農業部積極討論但也非常開心聽到部長明確說出不會有所謂降級這個問題好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1197,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時48分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長午安。有關今天審查動保法的部分，其實我知道農業部在相關事情上真的已經做了非常、非常多的努力，可是我想，人力的不足、量能的不足，這些都還是農業部最需要積極協助的地方。我們來看一下有關動保的部分，我想遊盪犬這件事情，就是野生動物跟人之間的衝突案件，我就不再多說，我知道目前全國有超過14萬隻的遊盪犬，這件事情要處理非常的困難，有很多老師都提醒我們，相關的動物學家、生態學家也都認為目前熱區的管理強度不夠，我知道其實農業部真的一直一直都很努力，之前在張雅琳委員跟洪申翰委員（也就是現在的勞動部長）所提出的相關事情上，部長也已經給了積極的承諾，但是我知道目前還有一些事情沒有達成、進度未明，這個部分部長要不要說明一下？"],["陳部長駿季：我想有關這邊所提到的，就是有關生態熱區禁止餵養的部分，現在自然保育區的這個部分都已經在做了，我們會先用插牌子的方式，然後宣導後就會開始禁止。在生態熱區的部分，流浪犬的部分因為有太多的愛心人士飼養，所以會讓他們群聚，所以我們在生態熱區會先要求他們不能餵養。然後TNR回置的部分，我們也不會回到生態熱區，要確保生態熱區隻數的控制，大概目前是這樣子。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這樣看起來確實有相關的進度。我們來看一下，其實還有另外一個問題，就是人犬衝突熱區，目前我們當然有相關的訴求，然後也有相關的法規，可是我們現在看到的困境是，有沒有辦法設立宣導期，期滿時再強行執法？或是挑選人犬衝突熱區比較嚴重的前幾區優先執行？"],["陳部長駿季：我想……"],["陳委員培瑜：因為它跟林保署有關，跟動保司也有關，我們認為應該要由動保司來主責這個業務，我不知道部長你們現在這邊的規劃？"],["陳部長駿季：人犬衝突的部分，基本上還是動保司在主責啦！"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["陳部長駿季：然後剛才有特別提到，特別是我們現在也有請地方政府提報一些可能的人犬衝突熱區，這個熱區列出來之後，第一個，餵養的部分我們會去宣導，剛才也有委員提到，如果這些被餵養的狗造成人犬傷害，那餵養的人就要負責任，我們也希望透過這樣的宣導，讓餵養的頻度跟比例可以下降，因為如果在這個時間點用強制禁止餵養，現階段可能還不太容易執行。"],["陳委員培瑜：而且也不太符合我們一般人的生活樣態。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我剛剛的建議是說，因為我現在看了一下，你們去年有匡出一個所謂的「優先補助管制熱區」，然後有包含生態熱區，總共有204個村里。既然生態熱區我們有加強規範，人犬熱區我們也認為應該要加入，可是我認為要立刻執法是有困境的，就如同部長你剛才所說的，所以我在想，我們要怎麼去抓出這個宣導期？然後期滿後我們再來執行。或是我們去找出我們認為最嚴重的5個或10個先做，如果是這個方向，會不會讓你們在人力上，或是相關的執法上，不會有太大的困難，但是會有實體的推進，這樣民眾也會有感。"],["陳部長駿季：我們也非常希望，如果有縣市意願先走，那我們可以跟縣市討論，我們可以在幾個縣市，或是幾個縣市的村里先來執行，等有好的成果再去推動會比較快一點。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。"],["陳部長駿季：這個後續我們會跟縣市政府來挑選幾個重要的村里來做。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，聽起來部長其實也明白，也知道該怎麼跟縣市政府溝通，那我們希望2個月內可以有相關的規劃跟進度報告，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這個應該可以，這個OK！"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長。好，我只剩1分鐘。最後我想要談一談上個禮拜、4月21日在花蓮卓溪所發生的黑熊遭射殺事件，當時林保署4月23日的新聞稿是說：「黑熊雖有列名所謂的瀕臨絕種野生動物，可是數量很多。」它說：「已經沒有瀕臨絕種之虞。」它說近年來數量已經變多了，可是很多的生態學者老師也說：「林保署你們又沒有確切的族群數量，你不能用所謂的目擊率，還有活動範圍，就做出這樣的宣稱。」很多的生態學者專家也告訴大家，應該要更謹慎的來看待這件事情。但是我還是必須要肯定林保署在這幾年推動所謂的「臺灣黑熊生態服務給付示範計畫」的成果，可是我還是要說，在這次非熱區、非自然保護的山區，野生動物跟人類之間的接觸越來越頻繁，我們要如何進行環境管理、減少衝突、和平相處，我不知道這些事情農業部後續會不會有更多的作法跟討論？我們辦公室可以持續的來追蹤。"],["陳部長駿季：可以，我想先說明一下，當初講到有關於已經沒有瀕臨絕種的事情，其實是回應很多人擔心牠絕種。"],["陳委員培瑜：是、是。"],["陳部長駿季：我們不是想要把牠的瀕臨絕種降級，不是降級的概念。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，OK！所以不會有降級的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有降級的問題，是有人擔心還會不會瀕臨絕種。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["陳部長駿季：我們是用鼓勵的，就是朝正面的角度去思考，因為牠族群的數量有增加。"],["陳委員培瑜：OK！這樣聽起來我們就比較放心，至於後續還有哪些作法可以去處理我剛才提出來的這些問題，因為今天時間有限，我們辦公室之後會再跟農業部積極的討論，但是今天也非常開心的聽到部長明確的說出不會有所謂的「降級」這個問題。"],["陳部長駿季：不會有降級的部分。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長和主席，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請蘇巧慧委員、蘇巧慧委員、蘇巧慧委員不在。","現在請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","現在請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","現在請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","現在登記發言的委員除不在場外，其餘均已發言完畢，委員邱議瑩、張雅琳、徐欣瑩所提書面質詢，列入記錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未及答復的部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","葉元之","蔡易餘","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","邱議瑩","張雅琳","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員呂玉\n玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員劉建國等 16 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案；七、本\n院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」\n案；八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員李坤城等\n22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案；十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十四、本院委員郭昱晴\n等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護\n法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保\n護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案；十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動\n物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正\n草案」案；十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案；二\n十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二十一、本院委\n員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬\n具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案；二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五\n條之二條文修正草案」案；二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等 17 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17 人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案\n（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144501_00004"}}},{"id":"160825","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160825","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369aeddf4f6609fa2f3693dd611367b4ddd98ab4b80bc74e67d462de921938ebd285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"12:45:17 - 12:51:21","影片長度":"00:06:04","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查「保險法」15案：\n一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案。【後3案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第一百二十三條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:45:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:51:21+08:00","duration":364,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.00971875,"end":18.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.59346875,"end":53.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.45721875,"end":59.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.81909375,"end":60.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.02159375,"end":60.578468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.66284375,"end":69.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.48846875000001,"end":73.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.03221875,"end":86.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.56596875000001,"end":119.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.16409375,"end":125.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.10409375,"end":131.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.87534375,"end":135.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.46971875,"end":140.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.07221875000002,"end":146.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.26971875,"end":163.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.48221875000002,"end":185.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.04471875000002,"end":182.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.95971875,"end":194.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.02596875,"end":194.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.22846875000002,"end":194.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.46471875,"end":209.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.71346875,"end":195.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.41596875000002,"end":217.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.71846875000003,"end":223.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.81034375000002,"end":253.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.89471875,"end":251.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.47659375,"end":267.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.44909375000003,"end":276.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.50659375000004,"end":280.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.76346875,"end":292.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.66471875,"end":295.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.12846875,"end":299.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.47784375000003,"end":300.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.96284375000005,"end":306.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.02534375000005,"end":307.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.35846875000004,"end":326.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.11909375000005,"end":348.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.45346875,"end":349.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.66409375,"end":352.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.75221875,"end":357.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.76409375000003,"end":361.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.47221875,"end":365.27346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.19,"end":17.775,"text":"從去年我自己的服務處就接到很多的陳情案件尤其是很多七八十歲的長輩到服務處哭哭啼啼說他們真的被主任公司逼到要把保險"},{"start":18.935,"end":40.751,"text":"這個好不容易這個起碼的保險要解約要來償還他們的債務這個實在是我們聽了都很心酸所以我想本席也特別提出了一個保險法一個修正草案就希望能夠讓我們的主管機關體會到現在民間很多的鄉親很多的這個長輩遭逢到的一個困境"},{"start":41.471,"end":68.968,"text":"那主委我想請教一下這次保險法修法的核心當然我們是希望能夠保障這個所謂的一個人身的一個保障跟一個尊嚴的生活主委認同這個說法嗎那當然我自己交保險交了一輩子我當然知道這是最基本的好主委那但是這個課堂上的部分跟事務上我想你自己擔任這個經管委主委之後應該也發現有很多事務上的問題必須要解決嗎"},{"start":69.608,"end":85.673,"text":"當然當然就是說我們是要遇到問題我們就要把它務實的解決好主委那我想我們還是強調這次的修法的目的是真的要保障債務人跟家庭的基本的安全生活不是為了減輕我們執行機關跟保險業者的一個行政負擔"},{"start":86.693,"end":115.379,"text":"那主委我們在這個112年到113年之間被扣押的保險契約高達123萬件其中七成七成是所謂的健康險跟傷害險那過去我剛提到的過去很多長輩他們保了20年的保險30年的保險就是為了以後這個不要造成這個子女的負擔有一個深厚的部分能夠做處理但是問題是這些的一個保障"},{"start":115.999,"end":121.007,"text":"到最後就被任意的一個扣押解約這樣子合理嗎我想這是確實一個兩難的問題如果委員你問我剛剛有委員問說"},{"start":126.249,"end":145.54,"text":"有人支持有人反對我說我如果站在是一個教保險學的老師來看的話我是比較持有條件的反對說啦因為我教這麼多年過去這一向不是個問題剛剛委員點到就是我們從那個大法庭的裁示以後開始成為這個內容所以我們剛剛看到比如說健康險跟傷害險"},{"start":146.4,"end":164.315,"text":"就以社會成本角度來看它其實沒有這個實意你去解它也沒有意義雙輸剛剛委員提到我們對處理這個我們有三個很主要的要件第一個維持基本的社會保障功能第二個用最低的社會成本第三個橫貧債權債務人的權益這三個是我們解決這個問題所以剛剛提到就是說"},{"start":169.339,"end":194.539,"text":"我們也認同第一個就是要保障國人的最低的生活要求就保障需求所以我們才第一個就先把健康障礙直接把它排除再來我們針對那個一定額度的部分再把它排除希望能夠但是當然額度是多少我們在對社會溝通的時候就有完全不一樣的看法所以我們就提出這個方案當然我覺得能希望大家得到一個共識所以我們是態度是開放的"},{"start":194.619,"end":208.815,"text":"主委我想我非常支持您的目前你們提出的一個方向但是剛剛我們很多的立委同仁大家都有提到這個我們現在目前用這個每月生活費的這個1.2倍乘以3個月這個基準"},{"start":209.616,"end":226.307,"text":"那我自己個人是覺得說我們恐怕是低估了這樣的一個部分那尤其我們目前依財政部的公告113年我們全年的基本收入會是20萬2千元那半年大概是10萬左右那六度的部分大概是估到8萬4到11萬4"},{"start":228.388,"end":253.247,"text":"那我自己個人認為這樣子算下來我說實在的不要說在六都連在鄉下真的生活都非常的吃緊所以我自己個人我主張啦解約金跟保險的金額部分應該是要拉高到30萬這部分我想這部分是可以來討論的那我想這部分應該是這樣才能夠具體保障他們的生活這部分主委能不能說明一下"},{"start":253.867,"end":276.244,"text":"其實剛剛委員提到就是說這些額度的部分我們都尊重大院的這個共識啦這個我們持開放態度剛剛有提到其實有一點我要特別強調我們這個的修法的版本如果委員有注意到的話跟過去我們在司法體系強制執行不一樣我們是一張一張單一張一張單來算比如說剛剛講假設我今天買了五張保單每張七萬"},{"start":278.601,"end":299.832,"text":"7535我就35萬的意思就是說我過去可能就像我自己我過去買了非常多的保單那這樣一張一張不是統合來算所以某種程度也紓解了剛才大家說額度比較低的概念而且照顧到不是每個人都跟你行情那麼好因為不是行情好是因為你期間久了以後尤其比如說像我們年紀大了歷年來"},{"start":301.013,"end":325.747,"text":"就會買比較多嗎或者是說我們的考量點有很多剛剛委員提到我們覺得都是可以來討論的所以我還是要提議啦因為像我們接到的案子我自己接到的案子裡面有個當事人他繳了40萬的保費結果時間到了他的價值是60萬的人壽保險的一個價值但是就是因為被逼到要解約最後只有拿到30萬"},{"start":327.608,"end":348.607,"text":"不但沒有60萬的保障還要損失10萬塊這樣子情何以堪所以在這邊我想主委我們不能讓保險制度成為資產清算的提款機這樣對我們整個保險制度的信任基礎是有很大的影響那我們也支持好的修法方向那也請主委這邊我們大家一起來努力是謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好我們先去許副委員謝謝"},{"start":352.791,"end":365.045,"text":"接下来请苏清泉委员苏清泉委员苏清泉委员不在接下来请何新淳委员何新淳委员何新淳委员不在我们再请王洪威委员王洪威委员"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1167,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（12時45分）謝謝主席，有請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：徐委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：主委好。從去年以來，我自己的服務處就接到很多陳情案件，尤其有很多七、八十歲長輩到服務處來哭哭啼啼，說他們被租賃公司逼到把好不容易期滿的保險要解約，以償還他們的債務，我們聽了實在覺得很心酸。所以本席也特別提出保險法修正草案，就是希望讓主管機關體會現在民間很多鄉親、很多長輩遭逢到的困境。我想請教一下，這次保險法修法的核心當然是希望確保人身的保障與尊嚴的生活，主委認同這個說法嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然。我自己教保險教了一輩子，當然知道這是最基本的目的。"],["徐委員富癸：但是課堂上與實務上有別，我想你自己擔任金管會主委之後應該也發現有很多實務上的問題必須解決嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，遇到問題，我們就要把它務實地解決。"],["徐委員富癸：好。主委，我還是強調，這次修法目的是要真正地保護債務人跟家庭的基本安全生活，不是為了減輕執行機關跟保險業者的行政負擔。","主委，112年到113年之間被扣押的保險契約高達123萬件，其中7成是健康險跟傷害險。如我剛剛提到的，過去有很多長輩保了20年保險、30年保險，節儉度日就是為了以後不要造成子女的負擔，有一筆錢能夠處理身後事。問題是這些保障到最後被任意扣押、解約，這樣合理嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這確實是一個兩難的問題，如果委員問我，剛也有委員問，有人支持、有人反對，以教保險學的老師來看，我是比較持有條件的反對說。我教這麼多年，這在過去一向不是個問題，但如同剛剛有委員點到的，這是從大法庭裁示以後才開始成為討論內容。比如說剛剛談到的健康險跟傷害險，以社會成本的角度來看，其實沒有實益，所以解它也沒有意義，對不對？就是雙輸。","我們處理這個問題有3個主要要件，第一是維持基本的社會保障功能，第二是用最低的社會成本，第三是衡平債權人與債務人的權益，這三個是我們解決問題的要件。我剛剛提到，我們也認同第一點，就是要保障國人的最低生活要求、也就是保障需求，所以才直接把健康險跟傷害險排除，再來是針對一定額度的部分予以排除，希望能夠解決。但是對於額度是多少，在我們對社會溝通的時候就有完全不一樣的看法，所以我們提出這個方案。當然我也很希望大家得到共識，所以我們態度開放。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我非常支持你們目前提出的方向。但是如同剛才也有很多立委同仁提到的，目前是用每月生活費的1.2倍乘以3個月這個基準，我個人覺得這個部分恐怕是低估了。尤其依財政部目前公告，113年全年基本生活費是20萬2,000元，半年大概是10萬元左右，六都大概要付到八萬四到十一萬四，那麼我照這樣算下來，說實在的，不要說在六都，連在鄉下生活真的都非常吃緊。所以我個人主張解約金跟保險金的標準應該拉高到30萬元，我想這部分是可以討論的，應該這樣才能具體保障他們的生活。針對這部分，主委能不能說明一下？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對於剛剛委員提到的額度，其實我們都尊重大院的共識、我們抱持開放態度。有一點我要特別強調，如果委員有注意到的話，這個修法版本跟司法體系的強制執行不一樣，而是以一張一張單來算。比如說我買了5張保單，每張保額7萬元，7乘以5是35，也就是我有35萬元的意思。就像我自己過去買了非常多保單，都要一張一張算，而不是統合來算，所以某種程度也紓解了剛剛大家所說額度比較低的問題，而且照顧到……"],["徐委員富癸：主委，不是每個人都跟你一樣行情那麼好，有那麼多張保單啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是行情好，而是期間久了以後，尤其隨著年紀大了，歷年來就會買比較多，我只是說我們的考量點很多。對於剛剛委員提到的，我們覺得都是可以討論的。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我還是要提議啦！在我自己接到的案子裡面，就有一個當事人繳了40萬元保費，時間到了會有60萬元人壽保險的價值，但就是因為被逼到要解約，最後只拿到30萬元，不但沒有60萬元的保障，還要損失10萬元，這樣情何以堪！主委，我們不能讓保險制度成為資產清算的提款機，這樣對整個保險制度的信賴基礎有很大的影響。我們支持好的修法方向，也請主委跟我們大家一起努力。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["徐委員富癸：謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席（林委員思銘代）：謝謝徐富癸委員。","接下來請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","接下來請何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","再來請王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在。","張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢。","現在處理臨時提案，共1案。","目前要表決臨時提案的委員人數不足，要處理嗎？好。","請議事人員宣讀臨時提案。","鑒於司法程序需有特定犯罪嫌疑人後才能對犯罪所得或證據進行扣押程序，但虛擬貨幣作為詐騙集團移轉犯罪所得的工具，一旦移轉至境外將難以追回。請金管會協調司法機關（法務部/司法院）未來以追蹤金流為優先，確認詐款路徑後，盡速向境內外的實名制虛幣交易所核發扣押裁定。","提案人：鍾佳濱　　賴惠員　　李坤城"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","黃珊珊","羅智強","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","黃國昌","陳玉珍","王世堅","林思銘","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","徐富癸","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「保險法」15案：一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員\n王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人\n分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案；二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第\n一百二十三條之一條文草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等\n19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百\n七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案","agenda_id":"1144301_00006"}}},{"id":"160824","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160824","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369155ebc93dcabd8d83c0ba1d923b4b8db98ab4b80bc74e67d7e067b1efe2647ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"12:43:01 - 12:48:26","影片長度":"00:05:25","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:43:01+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:48:26+08:00","duration":325,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.67534375,"end":10.797218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.180343750000002,"end":16.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.973468750000002,"end":31.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.63846875,"end":27.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.465343750000002,"end":29.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.840343750000002,"end":53.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.025343750000005,"end":36.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.204718750000005,"end":49.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.305968750000005,"end":49.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.507843750000006,"end":54.790343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.87471875000001,"end":60.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.20284375000001,"end":74.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.14159375,"end":75.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.66471875,"end":128.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.52909375,"end":79.61346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.22909375,"end":82.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.26284375,"end":82.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.05159375000001,"end":86.54909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.69659375,"end":87.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.08346875000001,"end":96.45471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.83409375000001,"end":98.98596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.22221875000001,"end":99.39096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.26784375000001,"end":104.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.15346875,"end":107.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.40971875000001,"end":114.44346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.78096875000001,"end":114.83159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.50034375,"end":137.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.76471875000001,"end":138.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.40159375000002,"end":150.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.12971875000002,"end":165.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.04721875,"end":219.00096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.01284375,"end":170.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.08409375000002,"end":173.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.41159375,"end":210.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.03159375,"end":212.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.37284375000002,"end":215.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.40596875000003,"end":220.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.67159375000003,"end":222.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.80659375000002,"end":221.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.88221875000002,"end":223.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.33784375000002,"end":240.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.60096875000002,"end":245.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.70159375000003,"end":255.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.53534375,"end":262.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.88534375,"end":257.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.84284375000004,"end":259.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.28096875,"end":266.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.81221875,"end":273.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.38909375000003,"end":279.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.85721875,"end":275.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.39659375,"end":308.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.42034375000003,"end":289.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.15784375000004,"end":295.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.75909375000003,"end":321.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.44909375000003,"end":322.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.95096875,"end":323.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.01846875,"end":323.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.13659375000003,"end":323.67659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.711,"end":9.635,"text":"好謝謝主席我請農業部部長陳部長"},{"start":17.671,"end":24.556,"text":"部長好 去年的6月我在針對院長的總諮詢當中當時你也在現場有提出關於寵物食品管理法這個專法訂定的關切那因為其實台灣需要一部寵物食品管理專法這個從20年前就開始討論了所以這是全國的4組以及300隻的犬貓隻大家共同的期待"},{"start":42.907,"end":68.849,"text":"那我知道去年你們也開始啟動然後也邀請各界專家民間團體等等來進行研議剛剛我聽到部長說是預計下個會期要送到立法院嗎對我跟委員報告這個寵物食品專法本身包括委員多次的質詢我們也多次的討論然後在5月底我們一定在內部完成我們的法制作業會送到行政院去"},{"start":69.769,"end":95.84,"text":"那行政院會經過法條的審議我們目標是下個會期送到立法院來好 那原先我們其實是期待你們這個會期可以送進來但是我知道因為它需要跟很多各界大家要審慎的來把它完備討論要去修正 沒有錯 這我們也認同那除了這次本次的修法等於是我們首度把這一個業者的責任如果製造販賣不合格的稠物食品"},{"start":96.3,"end":105.129,"text":"然後危害到安全的話首度納入刑罰嘛除了刑罰以外其實更加重要的是未來我們要如何來輔導跟執行所以我想現在法下個會期送進來那你們針對未來這個寵物食品專法上路之後例如說我們現在要求業者要自行檢驗嘛"},{"start":114.978,"end":136.459,"text":"未來這個像實驗室的量能是否充足未來的稽查的工作中央地方的分工這相關的這些輔導有沒有已經開始來跟業者以及跟地方政府來進行討論溝通我想我們已經在法權來說現在還沒送到立法院來還沒有完成公告但是相關的配套措施包括您剛才講的"},{"start":138.57,"end":164.298,"text":"產品 寵物食品的安全非常重要所以雖然說自主檢驗他可以委託的時候有沒有所以SGS的相關的標準實驗室相關的實驗室那因為我們農業部目前我們針對包括農藥包括其他的有害物質的檢查的相關的點位非常多所以我們為了媒合就是讓寵物業者這些食品業者能夠知道相關的這些檢查站在哪邊然後怎麼樣的收費這個我們開始就在討論了"},{"start":166.078,"end":174.568,"text":"好所以我們希望啦這個法新法要訂定但是在中央跟地方政府之間我們要有充分的來協作那因為這個專法下會期才會進來但是我很關切的就是剛講的儲物食品的安全所以在這次"},{"start":181.015,"end":183.137,"text":"我們今天是這個凍飽法的修法的詢答嘛我也提出了第22條之4的修法就是明確的把我們現在具體可行的就是包括如果說在這個寵物食品當中它有這個樣態是包括了摻味或假冒"},{"start":199.255,"end":209.26,"text":"變質或腐敗有這樣的情況我們就可以符合來進行下架這個我看到你們今天的報告裡面也有提到過去在實務上確實有就是已經有查到就是有不明的異物摻雜在寵物飼料裡面但是卻沒有辦法下架這個是什麼樣的問題呢"},{"start":221.066,"end":247.158,"text":"我們過去在食物上遇到的狀況是 報告委員我們查獲的目前法律的動保法的授權沒有包括義務所以我們沒辦法依據那個法規的要求要他下架甚至是做一個行政的一個處分所以我們這次的修法特別把這個部分也一併納進來包括便紙跟含義務的部分食物上會遇到的義務比較多樣態會是像哪些類型大概罐頭裡面的塑膠片"},{"start":247.958,"end":262.53,"text":"然後或者是製程裡面殘留的一些就是我們很明顯的一些 比如說塑膠珠或是一些包裝的所以明確有查到的 根據現行法規無法要求下架那像變質或腐敗 我明確知道它已經發霉了"},{"start":263.351,"end":278.513,"text":"也沒有辦法要求它下降這是我們現在遇到的情況目前我們查獲的就是有發霉可是這個部分是發霉沒問題可是變質打開已經有異位了這個部分那我們檢測的標準也都符合可是這部分就是沒辦法採訪"},{"start":279.454,"end":307.881,"text":"那我們就是希望說我們現在我剛剛講這兩個樣態其實是比照食安法第15條啦 兩個樣態先把它先行先修及我們現在動保法第22之4條這個部分是我今天的提案版本那我希望說動保法先行先修這一條但是我們還是需要一部完整的重複食品專法就等待你們下個會期送進來那有相關的因為過去我們在地方市議會有很多地方政府執行也會遇到的一些情況也會再跟你們進行討論"},{"start":309.221,"end":321.518,"text":"我想基本上專法要公布還有一點時間但是我們現在用現行的動保法裡面去把寵物食品比較該注意的先放進去去修法的話還是能夠確保一些寵物食品的安全好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1170,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（12時43分）謝謝主席，我請農業部部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長好。去年的6月，我在針對院長的總質詢當中，當時您也在現場，有提出對寵物食品管理法這個專法訂定的關切，因為臺灣需要一部寵物食品管理專法，這個從20年前就開始討論了，所以這是全國的飼主以及300萬犬貓隻大家共同的期待。我知道去年你們開始啟動，也邀請各界專家、民間團體等等來進行研議，剛剛我聽到部長說，是預計下個會期要送到立法院嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我跟委員報告，寵物食品專法本身，包括委員多次的質詢，我們也多次的討論，在5月底我們一定在內部完成法制作業，會送到行政院去，那行政院會經過法條的審議，我們目標是下個會期送到立法院來。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，原先我們是期待你們在這個會期可以送進來，但是我知道它需要跟各界，大家要審慎地來把它完備討論，要去修正……"],["陳部長駿季：對，有太多的利害關係人。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有錯，這個我們也認同。本次的修法等於是我們首度把業者的責任，如果製造販賣不合格的寵物食品，然後危害到安全的話，首度納入刑罰嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：除了刑罰以外，其實更加重要的是未來我們要如何來輔導跟執行，法下個會期會送進來，你們針對未來寵物食品專法上路之後，例如說：我們現在要求業者要自行檢驗嘛！未來像：實驗室的量能是否充足？未來的稽查工作，中央和地方的分工以及相關的這些輔導，有沒有已經開始跟業者及地方政府進行討論跟溝通？"],["陳部長駿季：雖然現在法還沒有送到立法院來，還沒有完成公告，但是相關的配套措施，包括你剛才講的，寵物食品的安全非常重要，當自主檢驗可以委託的時候，例如SGS相關標準的實驗室，因為目前農業部針對農藥和其他有害物質相關的檢查點位非常多，所以我們會媒合，讓寵物業者、食品業者能夠知道相關的檢查站在哪邊，然後是怎麼收費，這個我們都已經開始在討論了。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，所以我們希望要訂定新法，但是中央跟地方政府之間也要充分來協作。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：因為這個專法下個會期才會進來，但是我很關切剛才講到的寵物食品的安全，所以今天是有關動保法的修法詢答，我也有提出第二十二條之四的修法，就是要明確的把我們現在具體可行的，就是如果說寵物食品樣態中有包括攙偽、假冒、變質或腐敗這樣的情況，就可以進行下架。我看到你們今天的報告裡面也有提到，過去在實務上確實有查到有不明的異物摻雜在寵物的飼料裡面，但是卻沒有辦法下架，這是什麼樣的問題呢？就是過去你們在實務上遇到的狀況。"],["江司長文全：報告委員，目前我們所查獲的，依據動保法的授權，沒有包括異物，所以我沒有辦法依據那個法規要求他下架，甚至是做行政的處分，所以這次修法我們也特別的把這個部分也一併納進來，包括變質跟含異物的部分。"],["吳委員沛憶：實務上會遇到的異物比較多的樣態都是像哪些？"],["江司長文全：大概都是罐頭裡面有塑膠片，或是製程裡面殘留一些塑膠珠或是包裝的材質。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以有明確查到，但是依照現行法規無法要求它下架？"],["江司長文全：沒錯。"],["吳委員沛憶：那像變質或腐敗，我們已經明確的知道它發霉了，也沒有辦法要求它下架，這是我們現在遇到的情況嘛！"],["江司長文全：目前我們查獲的就是有發霉，發霉的部分沒有問題，可是變質，就是打開來已經有異味的部分，我們檢測的標準也都符合，可是這部分就是沒有辦法裁罰。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，剛才我所講的這2個樣態其實是比照食安法第十五條，我們希望先把這2個樣態修進動保法第二十二條之四，這個部分是我今天的提案版本，我希望動保法先行修這一條，但是我們還是需要一部完整的寵物食品專法，這個就等待你們下個會期送進來。因為過去我們在地方市議會，有很多地方政府在執行時也會遇到一些情況，這個我們會再跟你們進行討論。"],["陳部長駿季：好，基本上，專法要公布還有一段時間，但是我們現在用現行的動保法把寵物食品該注意的都先放進去修法，這樣還是能確保寵物食品的安全。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在。","現在請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","現在請羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","現在請陳培瑜委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","葉元之","蔡易餘","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","邱議瑩","張雅琳","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員呂玉\n玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員劉建國等 16 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案；七、本\n院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」\n案；八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員李坤城等\n22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案；十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十四、本院委員郭昱晴\n等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護\n法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保\n護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案；十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動\n物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正\n草案」案；十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案；二\n十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二十一、本院委\n員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬\n具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案；二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五\n條之二條文修正草案」案；二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等 17 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17 人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案\n（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144501_00004"}}},{"id":"160823","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160823","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369b6624f0e88a8b7628b6df88a6e7dffca98ab4b80bc74e67d07496cb2378364c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:35:13 - 12:46:17","影片長度":"00:11:04","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場(廠)墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:35:13+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:46:17+08:00","duration":664,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.95846875,"end":5.886593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.19034375,"end":7.472843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.658468750000001,"end":8.114093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.114093750000002,"end":8.130968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.345343750000001,"end":13.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.391593750000002,"end":17.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.289718750000002,"end":22.609718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.200343750000002,"end":26.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.402218750000003,"end":31.097843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.70534375,"end":34.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.57409375,"end":34.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.11409375,"end":39.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.619718750000004,"end":41.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.336593750000006,"end":44.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.27284375,"end":48.799718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.81221875,"end":52.039718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.63034375,"end":55.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.752218750000004,"end":56.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.56221875000001,"end":60.915968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.77659375,"end":65.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.16409375,"end":71.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.34034375,"end":76.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.69409375000001,"end":77.94284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.10284375,"end":94.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.31159375,"end":95.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.18471875,"end":102.19221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.87596875000001,"end":103.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.27221875000001,"end":105.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.47034375000001,"end":106.19159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.19159375000001,"end":111.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.89971875,"end":121.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.42971875,"end":121.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.44659375,"end":124.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.02846875,"end":124.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.45034375,"end":124.55159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.55159375000001,"end":141.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.23659375,"end":154.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.29784375,"end":158.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.52096875,"end":161.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.77784375000002,"end":167.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.14409375000002,"end":167.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.27909375000002,"end":167.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.78534375,"end":172.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.89846875,"end":185.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.21846875,"end":177.31971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.35221875000002,"end":193.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.90784375,"end":196.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.06346875,"end":197.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.05909375000002,"end":198.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.56096875,"end":202.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.59846875000002,"end":204.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.70784375000002,"end":206.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.96909375,"end":207.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.48784375000002,"end":211.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.74034375000002,"end":215.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.06471875000003,"end":228.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.94034375,"end":235.90971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.63534375,"end":238.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.04846875,"end":243.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.12784375,"end":249.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.54471875000002,"end":255.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.90659375,"end":256.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.49284375,"end":266.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.29284375000003,"end":289.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.57221875,"end":295.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.13659375000003,"end":328.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.51096875,"end":356.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.03409375,"end":363.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.97409375,"end":380.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.64659375,"end":415.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.54346875000005,"end":392.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.43159375000005,"end":406.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.12721875000005,"end":410.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.16096875000005,"end":410.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.62034375,"end":414.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.83096875,"end":424.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.80846875000003,"end":430.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.25909375000003,"end":433.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.53284375000004,"end":433.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.66784375000003,"end":446.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.67846875000004,"end":466.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.69221875000005,"end":469.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.24034375,"end":481.00221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.98096875000005,"end":488.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.52409375,"end":499.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.86846875000003,"end":501.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.64034375000006,"end":503.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.18846875,"end":521.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.84159375,"end":510.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":521.9072187500001,"end":524.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":524.94471875,"end":525.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.48034375,"end":555.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.2947187500001,"end":553.9865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.37471875,"end":554.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.9484687500001,"end":554.9990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.03284375,"end":558.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.6440937500001,"end":584.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.28971875,"end":593.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.5247187500001,"end":594.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.6215937500001,"end":594.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.87471875,"end":596.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.81534375,"end":597.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.10221875,"end":601.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.99596875,"end":640.7747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.40346875,"end":658.6453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.73034375,"end":655.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.99159375,"end":657.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":658.7465937500001,"end":663.4040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":659.2865937500001,"end":659.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.29846875,"end":664.9734687499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.304,"end":7.148,"text":"謝謝主席 有請洪部長"},{"start":14.737,"end":41.212,"text":"部長好去年12月25號在台北市政府他們有辦一個跨年晚會那當時呢就是有一個阿美族的青年他發生了一個從18米高的地方墜落那主要的原因是沒有繫安全帶那再來呢如果我們去看他的類型他是屬於非丁類而且是一次性的活動"},{"start":42.393,"end":59.206,"text":"所以這樣的一個樣態很特別但是在前天4月28日的國際工商日台北市政府前就聚集了一群人就是為了這件事而來 為什麼因為對於台北市勞動局的勞檢報告"},{"start":61.837,"end":77.76,"text":"和他們的家屬認為沒有還原真相那台北市的觀察局呢也沒有幫忙家屬爭取職災賠償所以這個部分我想問勞動部有沒有掌握到"},{"start":80.328,"end":102.811,"text":"跟委員報告這個整個案子一發生我們就有跟台北市的勞檢處這邊了解這個案情的狀況包括他一開始的停工到最後復工審查讓他可以復工這個過程中我們都有掌握到那後續的部分呢委員講的應該是他後續的有關於他的民事的賠償部分還有真相的還原呢"},{"start":104.6,"end":121.028,"text":"有真相才有賠償現在目前還是台北市勞檢處在做這個職業障礙的檢查報告我希望勞動部當然我知道六都的部分是由他們市府的勞動局但是我希望中央的勞動部也能夠介入慣性好不好"},{"start":121.488,"end":140.963,"text":"我覺得我們願意適時的在這個案子上面給予協助好謝謝部長的承擔那為什麼我也來提這件事就是因為113年勞動部特別訂定叫做墜落打擊年那當時目標訂定說希望能夠縮短縮小到68人"},{"start":142.364,"end":160.36,"text":"但是呢去年的年中其實就已經超過68人那從今年度的數據來看現在如果數據是4月15號截止的話呢墜落的有36人死亡看起來今年呢也很難達標"},{"start":162.582,"end":177.171,"text":"36是全应该是全产业是那就营造业是18人是那所以部长认为今年应该可以达成预定的目标我跟各位说明我不会说啊我们很有把握"},{"start":177.751,"end":196.012,"text":"可是我只能說我們會很努力的來進行這個目標的達成所以我們很需要檢討嘛對不對那今天我們看一下專報有提到墜落事故的檢討跟精進作為我比較關注的是我要提醒"},{"start":198.192,"end":210.03,"text":"這個最弱的就是在我們重大職業災害當中最弱的就是佔48.9%就是一半那其中呢營造業是佔了68%"},{"start":212.839,"end":235.751,"text":"所以在這個部分我們可以看到像是電梯井的墜落施工架的墜落屋頂修繕的墜落它都是來自於沒有採取適當的防罪設施那其實我這幾年當立委這幾個類型我都有接觸處理過包括電梯井"},{"start":236.747,"end":256.685,"text":"所以在這裡我們可以看到跟其他幾個國家像南韓 美國 日本 新加坡我們的這個部分墜落的死亡值哉比例算是偏高的所以才會有墜落打擊年的一個訂定目標那我也要跟部長說您知不知道"},{"start":257.586,"end":266.454,"text":"我們目前全國五大最缺工的行業恰恰是原住民從事的前五大行業你知道嗎"},{"start":268.462,"end":288.876,"text":"這是很有趣的一件事就是我們都是在最高的工地印價上最深的礦業最遠的遠洋漁業那原住民的勞工每千人的職災率不但長期以來是高於全國的平均也高於產業的平均而且在這邊從事營造業的原住民族人當中"},{"start":289.736,"end":308.146,"text":"有55%沒有收到過公安職災預防的資料而且遇上職災的原住民勞工當中高達五成沒有拿到過任何法定的職災賠償也就是我們職安法裡面所訂定的最低的條件"},{"start":308.906,"end":328.46,"text":"所以這個很顯然就是資訊落差所以我想問勞動部有沒有掌握到原住民工人的職災率然後針對這種公安職災的預防有沒有想過用什麼管道去縮短資訊落差觸及到我們這些族人"},{"start":330.66,"end":356.426,"text":"跟委員報告確實這個原住民的部分他的從事的都是比較這個這個比較基層這個高風險的行業所以整個植栽的人數的部分跟植栽率目前我們都有掌握那至於說委員剛剛關心的怎麼樣促集這個從業人員這個從業的族人那除了我們辦訓練外我們在宣導部分也盡量去到部落裡面去做宣導或是在這個營造工地"},{"start":358.826,"end":382.155,"text":"這個他在部落周圍的營造工地他可能在那邊從事我們的宣導也會要觸及到那個地方我要提的是說因為我是生活在部落的人如果連我都察覺不到那就是表示可能沒有什麼大的效果所以我希望這個部分要盡量的再想辦法要怎麼樣去觸及到族人知道這些資訊你這邊提的第二個問題因為第一個問題是關於職債業部分當然我們就應該來做出統計"},{"start":386.597,"end":415.202,"text":"來掌握那第二個部分我是認為恐怕我們是希望跟園民會來做一些更進一步的合作因為園民會可能有比我們更多的管道來觸及到族人那我們可能有這方面的這個職災預防上面的資訊跟專業那也許園民會有相關的這個觸及到族人的通路那我們應該來跟他更合作我也來請我們的治安署來找園民會做一個專案的合作這樣好不好"},{"start":415.862,"end":436.294,"text":"你看喔光是講勞基法第59條勞工如果遇到職業災害傷害或罹患職業病死亡他其實是可以拿到5個月平均工資作為喪葬費跟40個月平均工資的死亡補償其實我們很多族人根本連這個都不知道"},{"start":436.934,"end":466.257,"text":"那我們作為民意代表經常就是要幫助他們去協調去爭取那當然這個是最低保障那有時候我們可以爭取到更高的倍數可是在這個當中我們會發現到原來很多的族人其實他能夠找上民意代表幫忙還不錯可是更多的族人是他連找民意代表幫忙他都不知道他自己有什麼權益他都不知道故族也不告訴他所以呢我要跟"},{"start":466.937,"end":488.477,"text":"我們部長再報告一下其實因為他們要規避災保法的通報的處罰跟職安法停工的處罰所以族人說他們有一些工地的潛規則受傷的時候不能叫救護車不能就近就醫不能去住院而且要說是交通意外"},{"start":489.768,"end":503.082,"text":"結果呢為了我們這些法律的一些處罰為了規避 雇主要規避結果本來是要保障變成更傷害所以部長你對這有什麼看法"},{"start":505.153,"end":525.544,"text":"跟文說明其實這些規避說實話他也不是針對原住民是我們在很多的地方看到職災勞工雇主可能都有這樣子的這種我覺得確實是一個潛規則式的要求那當然這是我們不能夠接受的所以我們現在當然也是希望來改善"},{"start":526.925,"end":554.017,"text":"職債勞工的包括的通報的資訊那也包括這個通報的資訊跟接下來他可能在保險上面的給付的請領之間這個包括他的程序我們也其實之前我們甚至開了一個工作坊那就希望來檢討這件事情所以從通報到後續的這個請領給付甚至是到重建的工作這裡面有很多的程序設計我想我們都正在檢討要來調整"},{"start":555.497,"end":584.437,"text":"所以部長您就是剛好提到我這樣講的當然一方面勞檢很重要但是仍然發生高比例的墜落事件顯示勞檢它還是有限難以預防那特別是勞檢人員到底夠不夠那如何補充那甚至是您剛剛提到的就是關於有沒有受教育訓練因為我們很清楚的可以看到有接受教育訓練跟沒有接受教育訓練差很多啊"},{"start":585.337,"end":608.244,"text":"真的差很多啊這個很重要啊所以有什麼措施落實雇主與勞工之間的教育訓練這個非常重要看起來這是一個很有效的策略所以呢要著重所以特別最後就是本席就是希望要求說針對這個墜落打擊年我們要找到檢討之後有效的措施然後檢討修正"},{"start":609.844,"end":625.49,"text":"那落實勞檢如果人力不足就要補充那也希望檢討現在的非丁類像我剛剛提的那個類子就是非丁類而且是一次性的活動希望就這個部分也要去檢討然後關於教育訓練還有職安資訊的傳播"},{"start":628.211,"end":644.549,"text":"要去想到有效可以觸及到雇主與勞工的那也希望儘速修正職安法去提高沒有落實安全措施的這些雇主要怎麼樣去處罰他跟委員說明其實我們有做了一個原住民族的職災的預防的資訊網"},{"start":646.451,"end":660.215,"text":"可是這個我們做好以後我是覺得恐怕我們還是需要跟剛剛說跟園民會來合作不然我們自己做也許就放在那邊其實很多人不一定去看到他或在上面了解到資訊這部分我們是可以來加強的好謝謝部長我們跟勞動部一起繼續努力謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":894,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時35分）謝謝主席，有請洪部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好。去年12月25日臺北市政府舉辦一個跨年晚會，當時有一個阿美族青年從18米高的地方墜落，主要的原因是沒有繫安全帶。我們去看活動的類型，它是屬於非丁類，而且是一次性的活動，所以這樣的樣態很特別。在前天4月28日的國際工商日，臺北市政府前聚集了一群人，就是為了這件事而來，為什麼？因為對於臺北市勞動局的勞檢報告，他們的家屬認為沒有還原真相，臺北市觀傳局也沒有幫忙家屬爭取職災賠償，所以這個部分我想問：勞動部有沒有掌握到？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，這整個案子一發生，我們就有跟臺北市勞檢處瞭解案情的狀況，包括一開始的停工到最後復工審查，讓它可以復工，這個過程我們都有掌握到。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那後續的部分呢？"],["林署長毓堂：委員講的應該是後續有關民事賠償的部分。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：還有真相的還原呢？"],["林署長毓堂：真相還原目前還是……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有真相才有賠償啊。"],["林署長毓堂：是、是、是。目前還是臺北市勞檢處在做職業災害的檢查報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。當然我知道六都的部分是由市府的勞動局來做，但是我希望中央的勞動部也能夠介入關心，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：我們願意適時地在這個案子上面給予協助。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長的承擔。那為什麼我也來提這件事？就是因為民國113年勞動部特別訂為墜落打擊年，當時訂定的目標是希望能夠縮小到68人，但是去年的年中其實就已經超過68人。從今年度的數據來看，如果數據是在4月15日截止的話，墜落的有36人死亡，看起來今年也很難達標。"],["洪部長申翰：36人應該是全產業的人數，營造業是18人。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。所以部長認為今年應該可以達成預定的目標？"],["洪部長申翰：跟各位說明，我不會說我們很有把握，可是我只能說我們會很努力地來進行這個目標的達成。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。所以我們很需要檢討，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：今天我們看一下，專報有提到墜落事故的檢討跟精進作為，我比較關注的是，我要提醒，在重大職業災害當中，墜落就占48.9%，就是一半，其中營造業占了68%。在這個部分，我們可以看到，像是電梯井的墜落、施工架的墜落、屋頂修繕的墜落，都是來自於沒有採取適當的防墜設施，我這幾年當立委，這幾個類型我都有接觸處理過，包括電梯井的墜落事故。在這裡我們可以看到，跟其他幾個國家，像南韓、美國、日本、新加坡相比，我們的墜落死亡職災比例算是偏高的，所以才會訂定墜落打擊年的目標。","我也要跟部長說，你知不知道，我們目前全國五大最缺工的行業，恰恰是原住民從事的前五大行業，你知道嗎？這是很有趣的一件事，就是我們原住民勞工都是在最高的工地鷹架上、最深的礦業、最遠的遠洋漁業，原住民的勞工每千人的職災率不但長期以來高於全國的平均，也高於產業的平均；從事營造業的原住民族人當中，有55%沒有收到過工安、職災預防的資料；而且遇上職災的原住民勞工當中，高達五成沒有拿到過任何法定的職災賠償，也就是職安法裡面定的最低條件，這個很顯然就是資訊落差。所以我想問：勞動部有沒有掌握到原住民工人的職災率？針對這種工安職災的預防，有沒有想過用什麼管道去縮短資訊落差，觸及到我們這些族人？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員報告，原住民確實從事的都是比較基層的高風險行業，整個職災的人數跟職災率目前我們都有掌握。至於說委員剛剛關心怎麼樣觸及從業的族人，除了辦訓練以外，我們在宣導的部分，也儘量到部落裡面去做宣導，或是他們可能在部落周圍的營造工地從事這類工作，我們的宣導也會觸及到那個地方去。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我要提的是說，因為我是生活在部落的人，如果連我都察覺不到，那就表示可能沒有什麼大的效果，所以我希望這個部分要儘量再想辦法，設法怎麼樣去觸及到族人，讓他們知道這些資訊。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，你提的第一個問題是關於職災率的部分，當然我們就應該來做出統計來掌握。第二個問題，我們是希望跟原民會來做一些更進一步的合作，因為原民會可能有比我們更多的管道來觸及到族人。我們可能有職災預防上面的資訊跟專業，也許原民會有相關的觸及到族人的通路，我們應該要來跟原民會合作，我會請我們的職安署來找原民會做一個專案的合作，好不好？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你看，光是講勞基法第五十九條，勞工如果遇到職業災害、傷害或罹患職業病死亡，其實是可以拿到5個月平均工資作為喪葬費，跟40個月平均工資的死亡補償。其實我們很多族人根本連這個都不知道，我們作為民意代表，經常要幫助他們去協調、去爭取，當然這個是最低保障，有時候我們可以爭取到更高的倍數，可是在這個當中，我們會發現，原來很多的族人能夠找上民意代表幫忙還不錯，可是更多的族人是連找民意代表幫忙都不知道，他自己有什麼權益，他都不知道，雇主也不告訴他。","所以我要跟部長再報告一下，因為雇主要規避災保法通報的處罰跟職安法停工的處罰，所以族人說他們有一些工地的潛規則，受傷的時候不能叫救護車，不能就近就醫，不能去住院，而且要說是交通意外，雇主為了要規避法律的處罰，結果法律本來是要保障勞工，卻變成更大的傷害。部長，你對這有什麼看法？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，說實話，其實這些規避也不是針對原住民，我們在很多的地方看到職災勞工，雇主可能都有這樣子的行為，我覺得確實是一個潛規則式的要求，這是我們不能夠接受的。我們現在當然也是希望來改善職災勞工的保障，包括通報的資訊、也包括接下來在保險上面給付的請領、包括程序，其實之前我們甚至開了一個工作坊，就是希望來檢討這件事情。所以從通報到後續的請領給付，甚至是到重建的工作，這裡面有很多的程序設計，我想我們都正在檢討要來調整。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：很好，部長您剛好提到我正要講的，當然一方面勞檢很重要，但是仍然發生高比例的墜落事件，顯示勞檢還是有限，難以預防墜落，特別是勞檢人員到底夠不夠，如何補充？甚至是您剛剛提到的，就是關於有沒有受教育訓練，我們很清楚地可以看到，有接受教育訓練跟沒有接受教育訓練差很多啊，真的差很多啊！這個很重要啊！所以有什麼措施落實雇主與勞工之間的教育訓練，這個非常重要。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：看起來這是一個很有效的策略，所以要著重。最後本席希望要求針對墜落打擊年，我們要找到檢討之後有效的措施，然後檢討修正，落實勞檢，如果人力不足，就要補充。也希望檢討現在的非丁類，像我剛剛提到那個例子，就是非丁類，而且是一次性的活動，希望就這個部分也要去檢討。然後關於教育訓練及職安資訊的傳播，要去想到有效可以觸及到雇主與勞工的，也希望儘速修正職安法，去提高對沒有落實安全措施的雇主要怎樣去處罰。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實我們有做了一個原住民族的職災預防資訊網，可是我們做好以後，我是覺得恐怕我們還是需要跟原民會來合作，不然我們自己做，也許又放在那邊，其實很多人不一定去看或在上面瞭解到資訊，這部分我們是可以再加強的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：OK。謝謝部長，我們跟勞動部一起繼續努力。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","請楊曜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}},{"id":"160822","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160822","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369d6a0bca9ee4cadfa693dd611367b4ddd98ab4b80bc74e67d0ec021b76d1d478f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:39:17 - 12:45:12","影片長度":"00:05:55","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查「保險法」15案：\n一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案。【後3案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第一百二十三條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:39:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:45:12+08:00","duration":355,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.31784375,"end":0.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.84471875,"end":4.232843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.99659375,"end":5.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.32971875,"end":40.024718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.22284375,"end":112.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.14409375000001,"end":151.19721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.15346875,"end":134.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.80721875,"end":137.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.25846875000002,"end":137.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.19721875000002,"end":152.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.60221875000002,"end":153.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.44159375,"end":164.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.89159375,"end":165.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.52846875,"end":179.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.41221875000002,"end":180.64409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.96471875,"end":199.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.86596875,"end":192.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.25721875000002,"end":201.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.12596875000003,"end":203.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.91471875000002,"end":208.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.77471875,"end":218.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.42721875,"end":263.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.32721875000004,"end":274.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.82346875,"end":297.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.21659375,"end":334.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.23346875000004,"end":297.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.54409375,"end":334.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.64534375,"end":334.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.83096875,"end":334.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.13471875000005,"end":337.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.93596875000003,"end":343.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.95284375,"end":339.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.35346875000005,"end":339.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.28409375,"end":353.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.37659375000004,"end":354.33846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.302,"end":26.562,"text":"王主委喂好好主委午安午安快速跟您討論一下我想我今天是要來給您拍拍手的真的要感謝你在那個今天的修法當中保險法167之一你們在立法說明裡面特別提到為了配合政府提供職業運動員保險保障的政策讓運動員可以安心參加比賽介於目前國內相關保險產品是"},{"start":30.285,"end":38.197,"text":"不符合 可能不符合運動員的需求所以可以開放向國外的保險產業買相關的商品所以有了這一次的修法"},{"start":41.277,"end":61.992,"text":"好沒關係那這個修法我真的覺得非常非常的重要我當然也希望後續我們在委員會討論完之後後續所有相關修法進度可以順利的推進那事實上這一題其實我在2023年9月當時我就向黃天牧主委做過質詢那非常感謝當時的金管會很積極的跟我們辦公室進行修法的討論"},{"start":62.813,"end":85.928,"text":"那後來呢在2024年我還跟當時的林志憲副局長他現在是法務處的處長我們有討論過這個題目那我們看到相關進度真的非常非常感謝我要說是這件事情其實對於線上的運動員也好或是各式各樣我們的學生運動員職業運動員非職業運動員各式各樣的運動員其實非常非常重要所以我想要說一下來繼續給您拍拍手"},{"start":86.588,"end":110.364,"text":"值班公會昨天已經發了聲明說肯定行政院當然由你們來主導這個保險法的修法它確實可以健全選手的投保選擇這件事情真的非常非常重要但是所以我要提醒其實修法完很多辛苦的工作才正要開始包含在金管會後續要如何去完備這件事情因為修法的啟動但是後續的細節例如說我們盤點了我們認為體育署"},{"start":113.346,"end":118.791,"text":"還有大專體總因為他會接觸到很多高階學生運動員還有各個單項協會因為他們也會接觸到非常多聯賽組他們是聯賽組辦單位他們也會接觸到很多運動員還有各個球員公會因為他們本身是運動員團體我們認為他們都會是你們後續在修法後在確切執行上相關的建議應該要傾聽他們的聲音這個部分金管會是不是可以給我們一個比較積極的承諾沒問題"},{"start":138.527,"end":161.92,"text":"第二個是關於國內的保險公司代理經濟招攬的業者在這個修法後如何協助國內運動員關注國外可參考的保險商品這個部分我相信經管會應該也會提供相關的輔導對不對對 我們會來對 相關的保金 保貸公司對 因為當然因為剛剛那個在做報告我也說明了其實跟委員報告因為當初這個案子我還是當老師的時候我就被邀請去體育署做這個"},{"start":163.081,"end":189.238,"text":"所以有跟評議署討論過了對對對就是我在還是當老師的時候他們就有來跟我討論過這問題我也是非常的支持因為我也知道我們現行的這些問題可能沒辦法滿足他的需求他也跟我講了很多很多我才理解這個問題那剛才委員提到就是說我們後續怎麼做配套比如說誰可以來做這件事情適格的保險經紀人怎麼買到一個適合的商品而不要成為我們因為我們保險法另外一個非常嚴厲的規定"},{"start":190.279,"end":207.97,"text":"是不可以做地下保單那個是要很明確的區隔不要讓人誤以為說我們這個條文的開放的美意被誤用所以這部分我們會來跟請保險局這邊就委員剛剛提到的第一個相關的配套比如說這個要怎麼跟各個相關的"},{"start":209.931,"end":232.338,"text":"這個體育單位來溝通來做出他最適合的保單又能符合我們政策管理上面的目的這部分我們會來努力對好所以老師主委你真的懂非常非常多細節我們期待後續好那接下來我想要請教另外一件事情就是我前一個願望已經達成我要來許新的願望在現在的鄭麗君副院長"},{"start":232.918,"end":260.437,"text":"在他當立委的時候2019年他建議金管會在上市上櫃公司有序發展實務守則裡面可以把投資文化事業當成是一個重要的CSR指標那這件事情呢應該是經過一年的討論後續你們就納入這個相關的辦法裡頭我先想要問台灣八月即將成立運動部要掛牌後續我認為我們要如何鼓勵企業可以投資在例如說運動相關產業甚至是基層運動團隊這件事情"},{"start":262.998,"end":277.845,"text":"有機會來進行討論嗎我想委員這樣講的內容其實我們現在對上市櫃公司我們進行了這些ESG評鑑公司治理評鑑 ESG評鑑還有就是包括我們對金融業做的永續金融評鑑"},{"start":279.686,"end":296.813,"text":"我們都可以來朝這個方向來考量怎麼樣對於促進國人健康還是對於所謂的那個鼓勵體育活動這些東西也是屬於我們永續的一個推動的一個事項那我想這部分我會請我們同仁來研究"},{"start":297.133,"end":318.839,"text":"好 那我們辦公室也會再跟你們開會最後最後來我要感謝證券期貨周邊單位各個基層體育單位的支持像我現在就是服務金門跟馬祖其實我們離島也有非常多運動基層團隊需要支持那其實我也是我們在國會女性外交運動的成員之一其實台灣有非常多女性運動的團隊也很需要相關的支持"},{"start":319.199,"end":337.987,"text":"那我想我就簡單來這邊許願我想後續有沒有什麼機會透過證券期貨周邊對各個基層體育單位的支持還可以有更積極的做法我先給予你們現在所做的事情給予肯定那我相信後續應該還有更多我們可以一起討論可以推進的事情好不好是有委員的肯定他們應該會更賣力啊謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝佩儀委員來送卵接著請錫富奎委員質詢"},{"start":351.606,"end":352.891,"text":"謝謝主席 有請彭主委請彭主委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1140,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時39分）謝謝主席，有請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委午安。我快速跟您討論一下。我今天是要來為你拍拍手的，真的感謝你，在今天的修法當中，也就是保險法第一百六十七條之一立法說明裡面，你們特別提到為了配合政府提供職業運動員保險保障的政策，讓運動員可以安心參加比賽，鑒於目前國內相關保險產品可能不符合運動員的需求，可以開放向國外保險產業購買相關商品，所以有了這次修法。對於這項修法，我真的覺得非常、非常重要，當然也希望在委員會討論完之後，後續所有相關修法進度都可以順利地推進。事實上，對於這一題，我在2023年9月當時就向黃天牧主委質詢過，也非常感謝當時的金管會很積極地跟我們辦公室進行修法的討論。後來，在2024年，我還跟當時的林志憲副局長─他現在是法務處處長，我們討論過這個題目，我看到這個進度，真的非常感謝。我要說這件事情對於線上運動員也好，或是學生運動員、職業運動員、非職業運動員等各式各樣運動員其實都非常重要。","我想繼續給您拍拍手。職棒工會昨天已經發了聲明，肯定行政院─當然是由你們主導的保險法修法，它確實可以健全選手的投保選擇，這件事情真的非常重要。但是我也要提醒，修法完，其實很多辛苦的工作才正要開始，包含金管會後續要如何完備這件事情。修法啟動了，但後續細節呢？例如我們盤點後認為，體育署還有大專體總因為會接觸很多高階學生運動員，各單項協會因為是聯賽主辦單位，也會接觸很多運動員，還有各球員工會本身是運動員團體，你們修法後，在後續確切執行上的相關建議應該傾聽他們的聲音，針對這個部分，金管會是不是可以給我們一個比較積極的承諾？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。","第二，關於國內保險公司與代理、經紀、招攬等業者在修法後如何協助國內運動員關注國外可參考的保險商品這個部分，我相信金管會也會提供相關輔導給相關保經、保代公司，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我剛剛在報告時也說明了。跟委員報告，關於這個案子，當初我還在當老師的時候就被邀請去體育署作這項研討。"],["陳委員培瑜：喔！所以跟體育署討論過了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，就是我還在當老師的時候，他們就來跟我討論過這個問題，我也非常支持啦！因為我知道現行問題，包括可能沒辦法滿足他的需求，他也跟我講了很多、很多，我才理解這個問題。","剛才委員提到我們後續怎麼作配套，比如說誰可以做這件事情、適格的保險經紀人、怎麼買到適合的商品，而不要成為……保險法另外有一個非常嚴厲的規定，就是不可以做地下保單。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯。"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以要很明確地區隔，不要讓條文開放的美意被誤用，這部分我們會請保險局處理，就委員剛剛提到的相關配套，比如說要怎麼跟各個相關體育單位溝通、作出最適合他們的保單，又能符合政策管理上的目的，這部分我們會努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，主委，你真的懂非常多細節，我們也期待後續。","接下來我想請教另外一件事情，也就是我前一個願望已經達成、要許新的願望。現在的鄭麗君副院長在她當立委的時候、2019年，建議金管會在上市上櫃公司永續發展實務守則裡面把投資文化事業當成重要的CSR指標，這件事情應該是經過了1年討論，後續就由你們納入相關辦法裡頭。而我現在想問，臺灣8月即將成立運動部、要掛牌，後續要如何鼓勵企業投資運動相關產業、甚至基層運動團隊？對於這件事情，有機會進行討論嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：關於委員講的這個內容，其實我們現在對上市櫃公司進行了ESG評鑑、公司治理評鑑，還包括對金融業做永續金融評鑑，這些評鑑都可以朝這個方向考量，包括怎麼樣促進國人健康還有鼓勵體育活動，這些也屬於永續推動事項，這部分我會請同仁研究。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我們辦公室也會再跟你們開會。","最後，我要感謝證券期貨周邊單位對各個基層體育單位的支持。像我現在就服務金門跟馬祖，其實離島也有非常多基層運動團隊需要支持。我也是國會女性運動外交團體的成員之一，其實臺灣有非常多女性運動團隊也很需要相關支持。我想我就簡單來這邊許願，後續有沒有什麼機會，透過證券期貨周邊對於各個基層體育單位的支持還有沒有更積極的作法？我先對你們現在所做的事情給予肯定，相信後續應該還有更多我們可以一起討論、一起推進的事情，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，有委員的肯定，他們應該會更賣力啊！"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝培瑜委員送暖。","接著請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","黃珊珊","羅智強","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","黃國昌","陳玉珍","王世堅","林思銘","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","徐富癸","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「保險法」15案：一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員\n王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人\n分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案；二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第\n一百二十三條之一條文草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等\n19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百\n七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案","agenda_id":"1144301_00006"}}},{"id":"160821","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160821","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369e6da6a1b84d531cb3c0ba1d923b4b8db98ab4b80bc74e67d8c2082ecc2dcd8fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:31:45 - 12:42:55","影片長度":"00:11:10","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:31:45+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:42:55+08:00","duration":670,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.16596875,"end":0.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.599718750000001,"end":6.865343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.72596875,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.47221875,"end":12.180968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.704093750000002,"end":13.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.42034375,"end":20.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.719718750000002,"end":32.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.878468750000003,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.09284375,"end":36.126593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.03096875,"end":54.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.41909375,"end":54.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.92534375,"end":54.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.95909375,"end":55.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.30909375,"end":58.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.53659375,"end":59.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.56596875,"end":59.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.751593750000005,"end":60.03846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.03846875000001,"end":60.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.30846875,"end":60.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.44346875,"end":61.135343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.135343750000004,"end":61.557218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.557218750000004,"end":61.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.59096875,"end":61.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.877843750000004,"end":62.14784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.89471875,"end":61.945343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.14784375000001,"end":62.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.21534375,"end":63.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.97034375000001,"end":64.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.01659375,"end":72.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.03659375000001,"end":80.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.45721875000001,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.96221875,"end":118.39221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.57971875000001,"end":109.51596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.01659375000001,"end":122.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.81346875000001,"end":125.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.02409375,"end":131.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.41534375,"end":135.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.89159375,"end":137.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.83221875,"end":138.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.70534375,"end":140.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.78534375,"end":141.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.88659375,"end":141.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.27471875,"end":141.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.96659375000002,"end":142.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.02971875,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.36721875,"end":143.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.02409375000002,"end":158.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.07409375,"end":158.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.67284375,"end":158.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.02721875,"end":159.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.09471875,"end":167.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.02596875,"end":177.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.16346875000002,"end":181.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.92659375000002,"end":196.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.96221875,"end":197.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.21534375000002,"end":197.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.24909375000001,"end":197.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.41784375,"end":199.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.13471875000002,"end":220.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.50284375,"end":227.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.21471875,"end":244.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.34909375,"end":237.12471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.92596875,"end":240.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.00971875000002,"end":244.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.16159375,"end":263.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.74284375000002,"end":251.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.26471875000004,"end":259.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.33159375,"end":283.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.15784375000004,"end":268.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.92971875,"end":271.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.29471875,"end":289.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.92284375,"end":288.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.87596875,"end":294.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.12846875,"end":294.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.26346875,"end":298.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.78596875,"end":305.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.64596875,"end":304.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.33346875,"end":306.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.56534375,"end":329.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.36659375,"end":309.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.10846875000004,"end":315.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.74346875000003,"end":328.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.02596875,"end":334.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.19034375,"end":330.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.23659375,"end":351.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.80284375,"end":355.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.50284375,"end":357.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.57846875,"end":361.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.62846875,"end":373.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.03159375,"end":394.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.64596875,"end":385.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.02846875,"end":421.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.04846875000004,"end":401.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.52471875000003,"end":404.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.64221875000004,"end":409.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.43534375,"end":409.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.43846875,"end":416.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.01596875,"end":421.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.77096875,"end":422.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.76659375,"end":447.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.78346875000005,"end":423.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.01034375,"end":429.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.19721875000005,"end":453.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.25971875000005,"end":464.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.97096875000005,"end":473.44221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.69534375,"end":475.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.76659375,"end":478.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.96034375000005,"end":486.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.82409375000003,"end":487.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.02659375,"end":490.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.19471875000005,"end":494.50221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.55284375,"end":497.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.57784375000006,"end":498.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.07971875000004,"end":498.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.38346875,"end":498.68721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.94034375,"end":524.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.97846875,"end":541.4822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.55409375,"end":547.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.64659375,"end":544.1653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.67159375,"end":547.2703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.30409375,"end":547.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.3547187500001,"end":550.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.9284687500001,"end":549.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.95346875,"end":557.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.66596875,"end":553.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.14221875,"end":570.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.0478437500001,"end":567.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.54096875,"end":570.5578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.3172187499999,"end":571.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.35096875,"end":571.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.77284375,"end":571.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.80659375,"end":572.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.8528437500001,"end":573.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.8484687499999,"end":578.4890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.6453437499999,"end":577.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.97846875,"end":580.1597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.4297187500001,"end":581.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.93159375,"end":588.8503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.3403437500001,"end":592.0903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.5122187500001,"end":595.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.8959687500001,"end":594.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.85346875,"end":596.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.0390937500001,"end":596.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.5790937500001,"end":597.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.0347187500001,"end":621.9422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.2878437500001,"end":597.7097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.23284375,"end":598.8740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.35784375,"end":609.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.1784687500001,"end":624.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.1359687500001,"end":624.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.37221875,"end":624.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.96284375,"end":625.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.0303437499999,"end":625.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.3003437500001,"end":629.7553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.2109687500001,"end":652.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.77284375,"end":661.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.80096875,"end":667.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.7409687500001,"end":670.1540937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.434,"end":11.647,"text":"謝謝主席我先讓部長喝口水來問請陳部長陳部長"},{"start":19.514,"end":40.811,"text":"委員好部長好這早上我在做這個提案說明的時候我有特別提到說我們行政院的版本還沒有來那請問一下行政院版本現在是卡在哪裡沒有現在就是最後一步就是要通過院會以後就可以出立法院那剛才我也跟包括謝議員委員召委這邊提到的就是我們"},{"start":41.391,"end":63.84,"text":"目標是下個禮拜希望能夠協調行政院能夠納到下個禮拜的院會報告院會報告以後在五月上旬看看有沒有機會送到立法院來審議那所以這樣聽起來應該是在院那邊應該沒什麼大問題因為已經審查完了最後一關就是要在院會報告那審查完基本上有什麼大問題嗎"},{"start":66.06,"end":93.668,"text":"有一些問題但是經過溝通大概現在目前為止版本大概都已經定案了這樣子喔那這個本席有提案那我覺得比較重要的幾點再提出來跟部長再討論那第一個你們現在有關於這個寵物食品安全管理法是另外一個法對不對是那這個法現在也是在預告的部分嗎我跟委員報告本來動保法裡面有一個跟寵物食品有關的條文"},{"start":94.648,"end":118.09,"text":"但是因為寵物食品是大家非常關心的從原料的來源到生產製造到產品的開發跟內容物的安全性所以他很多委員就提出說要變成一個專法你也說要專法所以這個專法預計現在已經完成了在我們的部裡面的法規會審查那我是要求五月底一定要出"},{"start":119.351,"end":138.548,"text":"農業部進到行政院然後目標是下個會期能夠進到立法院好 那這個這還算蠻明確的那第二個就是說在那個就是加重刑責這部分的話那這個我們農業部的版本咧"},{"start":139.758,"end":158.058,"text":"我們是有加重我們也同意這個方向至於刑度有沒有跟他的罰款併割罰金的這個部分到底是多少萬可能大家到時候版本提出來的時候大家再來討論所以這個刑責就跟你們預告的是一樣就是有加重有加重那就是跟預告的是一樣"},{"start":159.199,"end":181.06,"text":"不同的委員有不同的版本到時候我們再來看看哪一個刑度刑責跟他的罰款是大家可以接受的好那我早上有提到就是說我們現在有一些民間他有一些動物的收容所那他其實養的也蠻多的啦那規模也蠻大的那可是的話你們我是提案說納管那就是你們"},{"start":182.254,"end":196.726,"text":"認為說如果納管這個進去的話那會變成是說問題可能會衍生其他的問題啦那可是不納管也不行啦我是說這部分的話你們要做怎麼樣做處理啊不過我剛才也跟其他幾位委員提到"},{"start":197.635,"end":226.528,"text":"我非常認同就是說所有的這些動物收農不能只靠公家單位啦一定要公家單位跟民間的都協同作業的方式那雖然說現在民間的收農所不管它的土地的土地的合法性或是它設施設備裡面的設施設備的完整度跟它的衛生安全可能都有一些差異性那如果直接納管的時候其實同仁是擔心直接納管相關的規範一出來"},{"start":227.268,"end":249.458,"text":"可能完全 可能本來一百家 可能剩下十家但是也不能因為 但是也不能因為這樣子不做啦所以我覺得應該要有一個輔導期啦等於說訂了這樣 我想方向是我們都要認同透過公家跟民間的一起但是相對的民間的整個納管 應該要有一個輔導期"},{"start":251.019,"end":269.513,"text":"那這個輔導棋讓我們去協助民間業者取得比較安全衛生的環境來做這樣的一個收容的動作然後才真正的開始實施我們是期待用這樣的方式來處理好 那就是說就是有關民間部分的話還是會做管理就對了啦那管理就是會有一個輔導棋"},{"start":272.495,"end":297.849,"text":"那另外一個還是大家也蠻關心就是說齁這個動物警察的這個職權那可是我剛聽這個部長的這一個你的概念應該是說他他不是警察啊但是他是類似一個動物檢察官的意思嗎還是小保官的概念小保官那那個概念是什麼樣的我想齁我們現在目前實務上就是當有人檢舉然後我們的動保檢察員去訪查的時候如果需要"},{"start":299.037,"end":313.688,"text":"進一步的做調查的時候就會通知警察單位來協助他目前現況是這樣現在這樣但是我們也知道他可能有點時間差對有點時間差所以有很多委員說因為這種時間差會導致很多他沒辦法"},{"start":314.368,"end":336.627,"text":"進去處理對所以希望有個動保警察但是動保警察就牽涉到警察的職務對這屬於內政部的那跟內政部討論警察還有警察的本身的一些很多業務所以我們基本上也尊重那如果不是用動物警察的這一個權利的話那有什麼其他可以去說然後剛才也有委員提到就是說我們賦予"},{"start":338.349,"end":351.487,"text":"動物檢查單元的司法職權我不一定稱他為警察但是他具有司法的職權的部分然後如果說大家有認同這個方向的時候也許我們可以透過後面的這些"},{"start":352.884,"end":370.39,"text":"入法以後後面的這些訓練但是我也必須提醒現在的動保檢查人員他能夠進來的科目如果是高考的話科目跟未來如果有賦予司法警察的人士的這些要求就不一樣了"},{"start":371.31,"end":393.797,"text":"那專業就不一樣了那個部分可能都要重新針對人力跟相關的調整那這個部分如果說我們後續再主要討論的時候如果大家有一致的共識那農業部基本上立場也是希望朝這個方向就是有更好的更有效率的但是也考量到部會之間我們也希望說大家也彼此尊重那看找到一個平衡點我們再來推動"},{"start":394.437,"end":409.812,"text":"好 那最後一個問題請教就是說就比較不幸的事情就是說4月21號我們有一隻台灣黑熊是那不幸在花蓮地方然後它應該是被我們這一個林業署的這一個管理員好像是路管員對"},{"start":410.993,"end":428.304,"text":"那當然我看那一個整個的流程來講就是說他是為了要保護自己因為那個黑熊他其實已經有了一個有那個動作就是對那有可能對人會造成這一個危害所以我們那位管理員他有開槍"},{"start":429.525,"end":447.267,"text":"那我想起就是說在兩三年前也有一隻台灣黑熊還要寫成一本書就是這個未完的旅程一隻台灣黑熊的人間啟示錄但也是一隻台灣黑熊他要回到他的家鄉回到他的住的地方大雪山可是在回程的過程當中也是因為比較輕"},{"start":448.588,"end":474.227,"text":"就是已經到了這個人類居住的地方然後也引起這個人類的這個這個要自我保護然後也射殺了這個黑熊那我就想說這件事情對於這個農業部或對於我們林業署來講有沒有什麼要檢討的地方我覺得每一件事情背後都有它改進的空間其實在當下如果黑熊開始入侵這些民宅的時候我們做驅離那其實驅離就應該"},{"start":476.823,"end":476.963,"text":"當時有辦法這樣做嗎?"},{"start":499.051,"end":513.51,"text":"因為我沒有在現場我不是很了解那我們曾經也檢討過如果但是相對我們並沒有抓到他只是我們人去去驅惑他的時候他就跑掉了那跑掉以野生動物來講我們不會去追他去抓捕他啦"},{"start":514.472,"end":531.915,"text":"所以後續我覺得還有就是因為當下在處理的時候他是比較黑暗嘛那因為熊的那個個體還有他當下剛好在吃那隻狗所以他有那個護那個食物的那個動作有沒有不管他是驚嚇看到人也會怕我相信他看到人也會怕啦"},{"start":532.795,"end":561.975,"text":"彼此之間 我想我們護管員的安全是非常重要的所以我們也不會去究責說他開槍殺死這個野保動物因為他本身也是布農族的他也是布農族的在布農族他們的禁忌裡面是不能夠殺黑熊的所以相關就是要當他自身安全受到影響所以後面的檢討其實我覺得後續如果還有還會發生這種情形的話我們在第一時間應該讓這隻黑熊遠離更遠的地方"},{"start":562.575,"end":569.879,"text":"避免再度的這樣子的一個來侵害我們的鄉村的那我再問一下我現在知道說我們台灣黑熊大概有幾隻嗎幾隻"},{"start":574.042,"end":578.766,"text":"六百隻左右,六百隻左右那這個數字應該是有保護成功吧這個數字跟五年前之前比起來剛才有委員說已經增加六百隻是不是還是保育的動力"},{"start":596.122,"end":612.1,"text":"就跟食虎一樣啊都是保育類的動物我覺得台灣蟲是一個台灣蠻具有特色的一個動物但是因為如果它數量多然後它現在那個因為它的侵襲我看它的路徑也會到低海拔的地方那我覺得接下來怎麼去教導不管是"},{"start":612.8,"end":629.325,"text":"住在附近的人或是說遊客我覺得可能這部分關於人跟熊之間如何和諧相處這部分我覺得可能要多一些的一些指導原則出來我也跟委員報告我們現在推動了那個生態給付的概念就是說"},{"start":630.285,"end":652.179,"text":"特別是在原民部落的部分他可以領一些撐帶給付然後跟我們農業部門一起合作然後一起來遇到黑熊的話能夠通報我們然後我們來協助來處理的方式那也因為這個績效做得很好所以相對的這些黑熊被誤殺被獵捕的機會變少了然後受傷"},{"start":652.919,"end":669.917,"text":"被通報的我們能夠及時把他救回的個案也越來越多所以他的族群是越來越上面所以後續我們會持續用生態警務的方式讓原民部落跟我們做一個共同守護的一個動作好OK好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝我們現在請何欣淳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1102,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時31分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好。早上我在做提案說明的時候我有特別提到行政院的版本還沒有來，請問一下，行政院的版本現在是卡在哪裡？何時會過來？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，現在最後一步就是要通過院會以後就可以送立法院，剛才我也跟謝衣鳯召委提到，我們目標是下個禮拜希望協調行政院，能夠納到下個禮拜的院會報告，院會報告以後，在5月上旬看看有沒有機會送到立法院來審議。"],["李委員坤城：所以這樣聽起來，在院那邊應該沒什麼大問題就對了？"],["陳部長駿季：那邊已經審查完了，最後一關就是要在院會報告。"],["李委員坤城：審查完，基本上有什麼大問題嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：有一些問題，但是經過溝通，到目前為止，版本大概都已經定案了。"],["李委員坤城：好，因為本席有提案，我覺得比較重要的幾點再提出來跟部長討論，當然第一個，你們現在有提出關於寵物食品安全管理法，它是另外一個法了，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["李委員坤城：這個法現在也是在預告嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，本來動保法裡面有一個跟寵物食品有關的條文，但是因為寵物食品是大家非常關心的，從原料的來源到生產製造，到產品的開發跟內容物的安全性，所以很多委員就提出說要變成一個專法。"],["李委員坤城：對，我自己也提出來要設一個專法。"],["陳部長駿季：您也說要專法，所以這個專法現在已經完成了我們部裡面法規會的審查，我是要求5月底一定要出農業部進到行政院，然後目標是下個會期能夠進到立法院。"],["李委員坤城：好，這個還算滿明確的。第二個，在加重刑責這部分，農業部的版本呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我們是有加重，我們也同意這個方向。至於刑度跟它的罰鍰，併科罰金這個部分到底是多少萬，可能到時候版本提出來的時候，大家再來討論。"],["李委員坤城：所以刑責跟你們預告的一樣嘛？就是有加重。"],["陳部長駿季：有加重，對。"],["李委員坤城：有加重，跟預告的一樣嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為不同的委員有不同的版本，到時候我們再來看看哪一個刑度、刑責跟它的罰款是大家可以接受的。"],["李委員坤城：好，我早上有提到，現在民間有一些動物收容所，它其實養得滿多的，規模也滿大的，我是提案說要納管，你們是不是認為如果納管進去的話，可能會衍生其他的問題？可是不納管也不行啦！我的意思是說，這部分你們要怎麼樣處理？"],["陳部長駿季：不過我剛才也跟其他幾位委員提到，我非常認同所有的動物收容不能只靠公家單位，一定要公家單位和民間做協同作業的方式，雖然說現在民間的收容所不管是它土地的合法性，或是設施設備的完整度，還有它的衛生安全，可能都有一些差異性，如果直接納管，其實同仁是擔心直接納管，相關的規範一出來，可能本來100家只剩下10家，但是也不能因為……"],["李委員坤城：對，我知道，你們怕因為這樣子而衍生其他的問題，但是又不能不管。"],["陳部長駿季：但是也不能因為這樣子而不做，所以我覺得應該要有一個輔導期啦！等於說訂了這樣，我想方向是大家都認同，透過公家跟民間的一起，但是相對的，民間的整個納管應該要有一個輔導期，在這個輔導期讓我們去協助民間業者取得比較安全衛生的環境來收容，然後才真正開始實施，我們是期待用這樣的方式來處理。"],["李委員坤城：好，那就是說，有關民間的部分還是會做管理就對了？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["李委員坤城：然後管理你們說會有一個……"],["陳部長駿季：希望有一個輔導期。"],["李委員坤城：輔導期。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["李委員坤城：好，另外一個也是大家滿關心的，就是動物警察的職權，可是我剛剛聽部長講的概念，應該是說他不是警察，他是類似動物檢查官的意思嗎？還是怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：對，消保官的概念。"],["李委員坤城：消保官的概念，那個概念是怎麼樣？"],["陳部長駿季：目前實務上就是當有人檢舉，然後我們的動保檢查員去訪查的時候，如果需要進一步做調查，就會通知警察單位來協助。"],["李委員坤城：目前的現況是這樣子。"],["陳部長駿季：現在是這樣，但是我們也知道它可能有點時間差，所以有很多委員說這種時間差會導致很多……"],["李委員坤城：他沒有辦法及時進去處理。"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以希望有一個動保警察，但是動保警察就牽涉到警察的職務，這是屬於內政部的，那跟內政部討論，警察本身還有很多業務嘛！所以我們基本上也尊重內政部……"],["李委員坤城：好，如果不是用動物警察這個權力的話，有什麼其他可以去縮短這一個……"],["陳部長駿季：剛才也有委員提到，就是我們賦予動物檢查人員司法職權，我不一定稱他為警察，但是他具有司法職權的部分，如果大家認同這個方向的時候，也許我們可以在入法以後透過後面的這些訓練，但是我也必須提醒，現在的動保檢查人員考試的科目，如果是高考進來的話，跟未來如果有賦予司法警察的職權，這些專業的要求就不一樣了哦！可能都要重新針對人力做相關的調整。這個部分如果後續在逐條討論的時候大家有一致的共識，農業部的立場基本上也是希望朝這個方向，就是有更好的、更有效率的，但是也考量到部會之間，我們也希望大家彼此尊重，找到一個平衡點我們再來推動。"],["李委員坤城：好，最後一個問題請教，這是比較不幸的事情，在4月21日有一隻臺灣黑熊不幸在花蓮地方被射殺，牠應該是被林業署的管理員，好像是……"],["陳部長駿季：護管員。"],["李委員坤城：當然我看整個流程來講，他是為了要保護自己，因為那隻黑熊已經有那個動作，就是……"],["陳部長駿季：牠當下在殺一隻狗。"],["李委員坤城：對，因為有可能對人造成危害，所以那一位管理員有開槍。我想起在兩、三年前也有一隻臺灣黑熊，還有寫成一本書，就是「未完的旅程：一隻台灣黑熊的人間啟示錄」，也是一隻臺灣黑熊要回到牠的家鄉，回到牠住的地方大雪山，可是在回程的過程當中，也是到了人類居住的地方，也是引起人類要自我保護，然後也射殺了這隻黑熊，那我就想說這件事情對於農業部或對於林業署來講，有沒有什麼要檢討或是改進的地方？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得每一件事情背後都有它改進的空間，其實在當下如果黑熊開始入侵這些民宅的時候，我們做驅離就應該往更遠的方向去驅離，因為黑熊如果習慣去吃這些雞，去吃這些東西，牠有食物來源就不容易離開，所以那個時候如果在第一時間能夠將這隻黑熊往更深山或更遠的地方去驅離，也能夠避免這樣的情況。"],["李委員坤城：當時候有辦法這樣做嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：因為我沒有在現場，我不是很瞭解，我們也曾經檢討過，但是相對的我們並沒有抓到牠，我們人去驅嚇牠的時候牠就跑掉了，以野生動物來講，牠跑掉了我們不會去追牠、去抓捕牠。因為當下在處理的時候是比較黑暗，以那隻熊的個體，加上牠當下剛好在吃那隻狗，所以牠有護食物的動作，也許牠有受到驚嚇，我相信牠看到人也會怕啦！我想我們護管員的安全是非常重要的，所以我們也不會去究責他開槍殺死野保動物。"],["李委員坤城：他本身也是布農族的原住民嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：他應該也是布農族的。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！因為在布農族他們的禁忌裡面是不能夠殺黑熊的。"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為他自身安全受到影響，所以後面的檢討，其實我覺得後續如果還有發生這種情形的話，我們在第一時間應該讓這隻黑熊遠離到更遠的地方，避免再度來侵害我們的鄉村。"],["李委員坤城：我再問一下，現在知道臺灣黑熊大概有幾隻嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：600隻左右。"],["李委員坤城：600隻左右。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["李委員坤城：這個數字應該是有保護成功吧？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["李委員坤城：這個數字跟5年前比起來咧？"],["陳部長駿季：族群有增加啦！剛才有委員說已經增加到600隻，是不是還是保育類動物？"],["李委員坤城：當然是啊！還是啊！就跟石虎一樣，都是保育類的動物啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我覺得臺灣黑熊是臺灣滿具有特色的一種動物。"],["李委員坤城：但是如果牠數量多，然後現在因為牠的侵襲，我看牠的路徑也會到低海拔的地方，接下來要怎麼去教導住在附近的人或是遊客，關於人和熊之間如何和諧相處這部分，我覺得可能要多一些指導原則出來吧！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我也跟委員報告，我們現在推動生態給付的概念，特別是在原民部落的部分，他可以領一些生態給付，然後跟我們農業部門一起合作，遇到黑熊能夠通報我們，然後我們來協助處理，也因為這個績效做得很好，所以相對的這些黑熊被誤殺、被獵捕的機會變少了，然後受傷被通報的，我們能夠及時救回的個案也越來越多，所以牠的族群是有越來越上升，後續我們會持續用生態給付的方式，讓原民部落跟我們做共同守護的動作。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請何欣純委員做詢答，何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","現在請吳沛憶委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","葉元之","蔡易餘","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","邱議瑩","張雅琳","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員呂玉\n玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員劉建國等 16 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案；七、本\n院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」\n案；八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員李坤城等\n22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案；十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十四、本院委員郭昱晴\n等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護\n法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保\n護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案；十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動\n物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正\n草案」案；十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案；二\n十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二十一、本院委\n員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬\n具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案；二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五\n條之二條文修正草案」案；二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等 17 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17 人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案\n（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144501_00004"}}},{"id":"160820","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160820","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369e6ba0645caa8dac6385a4fd0f0fffa4998ab4b80bc74e67debd2ef2fddbaddb65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"12:33:38 - 12:42:47","影片長度":"00:09:09","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:33:38+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:42:47+08:00","duration":549,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.9590937500000001,"end":3.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.4353437499999995,"end":10.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.117843750000002,"end":15.134093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.75346875,"end":21.394718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.54659375,"end":33.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.03846875,"end":33.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.76409375,"end":33.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.78096875,"end":33.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.42221875,"end":50.149718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.85471875,"end":48.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.53784375,"end":53.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.259093750000005,"end":52.275968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.09846875,"end":57.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.14471875,"end":55.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.01346875,"end":64.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.81409375,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.85971875,"end":71.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.96471875,"end":74.34846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.78284375,"end":78.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":78.09471875,"end":78.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.49971875,"end":80.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.53721875000001,"end":83.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":84.10221875,"end":86.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.63784375,"end":93.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":86.49846875,"end":86.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.19346875000001,"end":97.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.85534375,"end":101.33159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.19221875000001,"end":109.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.35971875000001,"end":110.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":110.49471875,"end":110.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.51159375,"end":114.57846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":110.59596875000001,"end":110.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":114.93284375,"end":115.92846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.06784375000001,"end":118.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":116.16471875,"end":116.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":118.64534375000001,"end":126.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.75034375000001,"end":122.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.77096875000001,"end":125.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.03659375000001,"end":130.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.21284375000002,"end":134.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.64284375,"end":137.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.65909375,"end":143.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.39659375000002,"end":147.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.07534375,"end":150.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.87659375,"end":152.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.45846875,"end":154.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.79159375,"end":157.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.99784375000002,"end":159.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.22096875,"end":161.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.50346875,"end":163.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.27534375000002,"end":174.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.59846875000002,"end":176.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.97784375,"end":179.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.88471875000002,"end":188.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.50784375,"end":190.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":191.22471875000002,"end":201.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.29909375000003,"end":201.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":201.72096875000003,"end":201.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":201.87284375000002,"end":202.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.46346875,"end":210.15846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.29346875000002,"end":219.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.08534375000002,"end":219.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.16971875000002,"end":224.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.60346875000002,"end":226.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.94909375,"end":227.87721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.34971875000002,"end":231.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.14221875,"end":234.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.50471875000002,"end":243.03096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.23346875000001,"end":254.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.11346875,"end":255.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.58159375,"end":261.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":261.91409375,"end":283.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":283.91909375,"end":297.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":295.36034375,"end":295.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.37721875,"end":296.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.92534375,"end":304.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.89471875000004,"end":306.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.88596875,"end":309.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.02034375,"end":316.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.36534375,"end":323.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.98034375000003,"end":344.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.78721875,"end":349.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.96784375000004,"end":352.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.43159375000005,"end":363.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.85596875000005,"end":375.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.69784375,"end":392.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.20159375000003,"end":397.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":401.20034375,"end":407.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.35971875,"end":410.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.61659375000005,"end":410.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":410.65034375000005,"end":411.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.68409375000005,"end":412.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":414.75096875,"end":414.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":415.29096875000005,"end":415.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.47221875,"end":417.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":418.04159375,"end":424.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.49221875,"end":427.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.23846875000004,"end":430.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":430.91721875,"end":432.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":432.84096875,"end":432.90846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.90846875000005,"end":432.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":432.97596875000005,"end":433.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":433.19534375,"end":434.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":434.69721875000005,"end":442.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.04221875,"end":447.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":444.33284375000005,"end":444.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.87659375000004,"end":452.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.22596875000005,"end":461.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.81534375,"end":468.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":468.51471875000004,"end":469.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.85221875,"end":469.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":470.05034375,"end":471.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":472.00784375,"end":483.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.42034375000003,"end":478.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.00221875000005,"end":485.99721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.52034375000005,"end":490.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.09346875000006,"end":492.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.28721875,"end":494.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.50221875000005,"end":495.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.75096875,"end":502.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":502.92284375,"end":510.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.76971875000004,"end":533.4665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.1415937500001,"end":547.47284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.568,"end":14.786,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請五次長然後高鐵鄭董事長還有鐵道局陳副局長鐵道局陳副局長 鄭董事長還有吳董事長"},{"start":20.782,"end":29.651,"text":"委員好吳次長你是這一個高鐵公司的督導的次長是那高鐵公司針對4月14號T204班次的檢討報告你滿意嗎"},{"start":35.108,"end":52.259,"text":"那天我有找他們來初步開過會當然它裡面大概還是在所謂的人員的問題當然我們希望能夠要求這個人員的一些疏失還是要想辦法你覺得問題是人員疏失嗎目前我看起來是這樣你也這樣認為對"},{"start":54.161,"end":74.258,"text":"你也這樣認為所以如果不是那個駕駛這個事情不會發生也不是說因為他當下的那個情境啊當下情境我了解他是因為他本來是在這之前他認為知道是要停車但是他到了以後沒有把訊號你這個回答很恐怖來鄭董事長這個發生這個事情啊這個駕駛的問題是這整個問題的關鍵"},{"start":84.504,"end":106.023,"text":"我們的軌道運輸跟公路運輸最大的不同就是軌道運輸要大量的靠系統要大量的靠系統的防災機制我們不能依賴駕駛我們也不能依賴列車長不能說車子停下來列車長發現怎麼沒開然後列車長趕快按鈕說駕駛你怎麼沒開門這不對"},{"start":110.97,"end":137.355,"text":"軌道運輸跟公路運輸最大的不同就是我們軌道運輸有大量的防呆機制系統非常的就是主要重要的但是人員要能夠按照他的這個SOP即使人員沒有按照SOP後面的防呆機制也要救回來即使人員沒有照SOP軌道運輸的防呆機制也要把他救回來"},{"start":138.737,"end":151.982,"text":"所以鄭董事長你大概兩個禮拜前你說是因為那個駕駛啊這個 今天各位都沒有開停板橋的啦所以可能當這個板橋他開都沒停啊這句話更危險這句話更危險代表我們的高鐵的駕駛啊開車都憑經驗憑感覺高鐵捏 不是台鐵喔"},{"start":164.329,"end":173.013,"text":"台鐵一些老駕駛啊 開了開了就知道說 差不多要高五次啦車也要來 速度降到多一點 那就罷免停了 那沒問題啦高鐵不可以啦 高鐵絕對不行這也是國人相信高鐵 全世界相信高鐵的原因就是要靠大量的系統來阻止這個駕駛員的疏失啦"},{"start":191.314,"end":217.679,"text":"是 跟委員報告 剛才講的那個什麼恍神啊或者怎麼樣 那個都是藉口啦其實最重要的是說 你要應該在每一個動作裡面你要做好你確實的SOP所以不要一直談這個是駕駛 這個很危險這個包括鐵道局五次長 那個交通部五次長這個邏輯也要想辦法調整好不好 這個再講一遍 軌道運輸跟公路運輸是差很多的"},{"start":218.419,"end":223.684,"text":"第二個為什麼這個車子到了板橋站車子到了板橋站車子到了板橋站車子到了板橋站車子到了板橋站車子到了板橋站車子到了板橋站"},{"start":235.56,"end":242.585,"text":"這個閉塞區間喔 這個閉塞區間他還沒 時間還沒到喔那不是說公車看不人就開車喔 不是喔高鐵是準時幾點發車就幾點發車喔這一個車站設定幾點幾分發車就是幾點幾分 也不能停車開喔裡面的轉車機一把它轉正綠燈就亮這個駕駛 現在你們的報告說這個駕駛啊看到綠燈 所以他就往前走了"},{"start":262.54,"end":275.431,"text":"跟委員報告因為他會開啟這個路徑設定的話主要是因為我們的駕駛這個車子啊已經到了這個軌道區了已經到了這個區域裡面所以他會開始"},{"start":277.452,"end":305.795,"text":"那輝遠講的沒錯其實我們這個駕駛他又換了一個疏忽就是說他照規定你要停下來要在開啟的時候你要跟行控中心確認你的時間你要自己要知道確認時間到了開車時間到了沒有那這個他沒有做他就自己就開了就換了另外一個疏忽搞清楚市長跟鐵道局搞清楚為什麼轉車期一轉正時間還沒到就讓你等這個事情一定要解決"},{"start":306.943,"end":323.221,"text":"否則現在駕駛只要說我看到綠燈開軌道車的人看到綠燈我不往前走是我有事啊看到紅燈我不能走啊現在的設計是轉車機一轉正 必賽車前就打開一打開綠燈亮他就走了欸"},{"start":324.139,"end":342.895,"text":"這太危險 這個機制也要進行相關的調整我想這些機制從這個案子裡頭看得出來高鐵公司有非常大的改善空間因為避免 這個事件當然沒有發生事故可是這個事情就可以看得出來我們高鐵的駕駛"},{"start":344.841,"end":363.316,"text":"每次行車之前啊 感覺因為 可能有經驗嗎開車都憑感覺啊 憑經驗啊我開到這裡就怎樣啊 但是國人會相信高鐵啊我們在學校教書啊 跟學生都是這樣講的嘛高鐵公司有很好的系統啊"},{"start":364.076,"end":391.994,"text":"用系統化來防止房呆即使駕駛打瞌睡即使駕駛弄錯了 即使駕駛怎樣那個房呆機制第一關 第二關 第三關都可以把它鎖下來這原來的系統設計是這樣我想這董事長在高雷公司也很久總經理 董事長 你這一個這一個期間你們也對外面 你對外面幹嘛是說有很多房呆機制的嘛這才是你們高安全性 可靠度很重要的原因嘛所以這一條"},{"start":393.417,"end":412.302,"text":"趕快把這個機制弄出來來鐵道局這個案子有沒有開罰報告委員這個案子我們已經成立專案小組要進行調查包含剛剛委員你們啟動專案小組是多久這案子發生多久啟動當天調查兩個禮拜"},{"start":418.1,"end":447.017,"text":"現在有調查兩個現在還在收集資料包含剛剛委員高鐵公司今天早上發新聞稿今天要執行這條早上發新聞稿答案都跟大家講了你們現在報告還沒出來這個是高鐵公司的報告報導跟我們的調查報告是兩碼子不是你上班了這又過兩星期了嘛現在高鐵公司現在的改善策略"},{"start":448.09,"end":456.154,"text":"報告的第十一頁第一請列車長告訴駕駛停車第二駕駛收到列車長停車趕快停車這廢話嗎那如果這個列車長剛才在忙他不趕快跟這個駕駛說這個駕駛聽到列車長說說他也不理他車子繼續滾下去還是無解啊"},{"start":470.14,"end":492.362,"text":"其實你剛剛你有談到的那一個事情主要是耗資系統是不是應該會去做房貸所以這一個部分我們會就這個要啟動調查你們包括高鐵要調查最後我建議從高鐵的這個案子裡頭全台灣各捷運公司全台灣的捷運公司"},{"start":493.305,"end":510.201,"text":"台鐵公司高鐵公司對這種防呆機制也許不同的軌道系統的等級不一樣設定的防呆機制因為有些防呆機要花很多錢設定的不一樣但是就現有的設備現有的機制各個捷運公司軌道公司在這件事情上"},{"start":510.962,"end":531.234,"text":"要全面的避免即使駕駛犯錯即使駕駛沒有按照機制來做我們都能夠把他救回來把這台列車不要陷於危險這個鐵道局要自己趕快把這事情弄清楚不要到時候發生的時候我們說哪一年的4月就發生一次也在立完備詢也講得很好聽會什麼又來又發生"},{"start":534.358,"end":546.939,"text":"這件事情是鐵路監理的事情這個是鐵道局要負責也請我們五次長啊包括這個陳部長這個事情一定要盯緊因為只要軌道運輸發生事故都是非常嚴重的事故好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":978,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（12時33分）謝謝主席。我們請伍次長，然後請高鐵鄭董事長，還有鐵道局陳副局長。"],["主席：請鐵道局陳副局長、鄭董事長，還有伍董事長。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：委員好。"],["王委員義川：好。伍次長，你是督導高鐵公司的次長嗎？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：是。"],["王委員義川：好。高鐵公司針對4月14日T204班次的檢討報告你滿意嗎？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：那一天我有找他們來初步開過會，裡面大概還是在所謂人員的問題，當然我們希望能夠要求人員的一些疏失還是要想辦法……"],["王委員義川：你覺得問題是人員疏失嗎？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：目前我看起來是這樣。"],["王委員義川：你也這樣認為？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：對。"],["王委員義川：你也這樣認為？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：是。"],["王委員義川：所以如果不是那個駕駛，這個事情不會發生？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：也不是，因為他當下的那個情境，據我了解，在這之前他知道要停車，但是他到了以後……"],["王委員義川：次長，你這個回答很恐怖啊。","來，鄭董事長，發生這個事情，駕駛的問題是這整個問題的關鍵嗎？"],["鄭董事長光遠：委員好。是的，我覺得是因為他的疏忽……"],["王委員義川：我們的軌道運輸跟公路運輸最大的不同，就是軌道運輸要大量地靠系統，要大量地靠系統的防呆機制，我們不能依賴駕駛，我們也不能依賴列車長，不能說車子停下來，列車長發現怎麼沒開，然後列車長趕快按鈕，說：「欸欸欸欸！駕駛，你怎麼沒開門？」這不對。"],["鄭董事長光遠：是的。"],["王委員義川：軌道運輸跟公路運輸最大的不同……"],["鄭董事長光遠：跟委員報告，我同意。"],["王委員義川：就是我們的軌道運輸有大量的防呆機制。"],["鄭董事長光遠：是。系統非常重要，就是主要重要的，但是人員要能夠按照它的SOP。"],["王委員義川：即使人員沒有按照SOP，後面的防呆機制也要救回來啊！即使人員沒有照SOP，軌道運輸的防呆機制也要把它救回來啊！所以鄭董事長，你大概在兩個禮拜前說是因為那個駕駛這兩個月都沒有開停板橋的車班，所以可能以為經過板橋都沒有停，這句話更危險！這句話更危險！代表我們的高鐵駕駛開車都憑經驗、憑感覺，這是高鐵，不是臺鐵，臺鐵一些老駕駛，開著開著就知道差不多要到烏日了，車慢慢開，速度降到多少都沒問題，高鐵不能這樣開，高鐵絕對不行，這也是國人相信高鐵，全世界相信高鐵的原因，就是要靠大量的系統來阻止駕駛員的疏失。"],["鄭董事長光遠：是。跟委員報告，剛才講的什麼恍神或者怎麼樣，那個都是藉口。其實最重要的是應該在每一個動作裡面，要做好確實的SOP。"],["王委員義川：對嘛。所以不要一直說是駕駛的問題，這個很危險，包括交通部伍次長，你這個邏輯也要想辦法調整，好不好？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：是。"],["王委員義川：再講一遍，軌道運輸跟公路運輸是差很多的。","第二個，我問鄭董事長，為什麼車子到了板橋站，車門沒開，時間也還沒到，轉轍器一轉回來就開綠燈，叫他可以走了？這機制也不對喔，這個地方是閉塞區間，時間還沒到，那不是公車，看不到人就開走，不是喔，高鐵是準時發車，設定幾點發車就幾點發車，這一個車站設定幾點幾分發車，就是幾點幾分發車，也不能提早開。你們的轉轍器一轉正，綠燈就亮，現在你們的報告說這個駕駛看到綠燈，所以他就往前走了。"],["鄭董事長光遠：跟委員報告，會開啟這個路徑設定的話，主要是因為這個車子已經到了軌道區了，已經到了這個區域裡面，所以它會開啟。委員講的沒錯，其實我們這個駕駛犯了一個疏忽，就是說，照規定車要停下來，在開啟的時候，駕駛要跟行控中心確認時間，自己要知道並確認開車的時間到了沒有，這個動作他沒有做，自己就開了，所以就又犯了另外一個疏忽。"],["王委員義川：次長跟鐵道局搞清楚為什麼轉轍器一轉正，時間還沒到，就亮綠燈？這個事情一定要解決，否則現在駕駛只要說看到綠燈了，開軌道車的人看到綠燈不往前走，是他有事，看到紅燈不能走。現在的設計是轉轍器一轉正，閉塞區間就打開，一打開，綠燈亮，駕駛就走了，這太危險了，這個機制也要進行相關的調整。我想從這個案子裡頭看得出來，在這些機制，高鐵公司有非常大的改善空間，這個事件當然沒有發生事故，可是這個事情就可以看得出來，我們高鐵的駕駛每次行車之前，因為可能比較有經驗，開車都憑感覺、憑經驗，我開到這裡怎麼樣就好，但是國人會相信高鐵，我們在學校教書，跟學生都是這樣講的嘛，說高鐵公司有很好的系統化，用系統化來防呆，即使駕駛打嗑睡，即使駕駛弄錯了，即使駕駛怎樣，靠那個防呆機制，第一關、第二關、第三關都可以守下來，原來的系統設計是這樣。我想鄭董事長在高鐵公司也很久，當過總經理、董事長，在這一段期間，你們也對外說有很多防呆機制，這才是你們高安全性、可靠度很重要的原因嘛，所以趕快把這個機制弄出來。請問鐵道局，這個案子有沒有開罰？"],["陳副局長文德：報告委員，這個案子我們已經成立專案小組要進行調查，包含剛剛委員……"],["王委員義川：你們啟動專案小組是多久？這個案子發生多久啟動？"],["陳副局長文德：當天。"],["王委員義川：調查兩個禮拜了？"],["陳副局長文德：現在還在蒐集資料，包含剛剛委員……"],["王委員義川：高鐵公司今天早上就發新聞稿了，今天要質詢這個，早上就發新聞稿，答案都跟大家講了，你們現在報告還沒出來？"],["陳副局長文德：這個是高鐵公司的報導，跟我們的調查報告是兩碼子事，只是因為是……"],["王委員義川：速度太慢了，過兩個禮拜了，高鐵公司現在的改善策略，看報告的第11頁裡面寫：第一，請列車長告訴駕駛停車。第二，駕駛收到列車長通知停車趕快停車。這廢話嗎？如果這一個列車長正在忙，忘記跟這個駕駛說，這個駕駛聽到列車長說，說一說他也不理，車繼續開，還是無解啊。"],["陳副局長文德：委員，其實你剛剛談到的那個事情，主要是號誌系統是不是應該去做防呆。"],["王委員義川：對嘛。"],["陳副局長文德：我們會就這個部分……"],["王委員義川：這個要啟動調查，包括高鐵要調查。最後，我建議，從高鐵的這個案子裡頭，全臺灣各捷運公司、臺鐵公司、高鐵公司，對於這種防呆機制，也許不同的軌道系統等級不一樣，設定的防呆機制也不一樣，因為有些防呆機制要花很多錢，設定的不一樣，但是就現有的設備、現有的機制，各個捷運公司、軌道公司在這件事情上，要全面地避免，即使駕駛犯錯，即使駕駛沒有按照機制來做，我們都能夠把它救回來，讓這台列車不要陷於危險，鐵道局要自己趕快把這個事情弄清楚，不要到時候發生事故，我們才說哪一年的4月就發生過一次，也在立法院備詢，也講得很好聽，為什麼後來又發生？這件事情是鐵路監理的事情，鐵道局要負責，也請我們伍次長，包括陳部長，這個事情一定要盯緊，因為只要軌道運輸發生事故，都是非常嚴重的事故。好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝王義川委員的質詢。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160819","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160819","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b94236913ec6a27e21cc724385a4fd0f0fffa4998ab4b80bc74e67d286f51d77010decd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"12:23:31 - 12:33:22","影片長度":"00:09:51","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:23:31+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:33:22+08:00","duration":591,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.5915937500000004,"end":4.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.199093749999999,"end":6.122843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.443468750000001,"end":8.063468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.492843750000002,"end":16.028468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.93971875,"end":21.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.609718750000003,"end":31.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.772843750000003,"end":32.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.94971875,"end":34.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.58659375,"end":40.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.931593750000005,"end":43.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.040968750000005,"end":45.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.74534375,"end":59.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.56596875,"end":62.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.97034375000001,"end":65.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.94471875,"end":67.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.35784375,"end":70.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.42909375,"end":73.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.20096875,"end":73.69034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.69034375000001,"end":80.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.82846875,"end":85.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.39721875000001,"end":90.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.93659375,"end":92.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.43409375,"end":95.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.49284375,"end":97.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.92284375000001,"end":102.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.49596875,"end":106.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.40659375000001,"end":111.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.04721875000001,"end":112.92471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.11034375000001,"end":121.83471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.42534375000001,"end":122.81346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.23534375000001,"end":128.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.41159375,"end":140.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.03846875000002,"end":145.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.91534375,"end":187.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.88534375,"end":177.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.74846875,"end":187.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.93409375000002,"end":191.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.64659375000002,"end":194.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.41409375,"end":200.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.62409375000001,"end":203.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.64034375,"end":207.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.15471875,"end":208.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.26409375,"end":212.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.63909375,"end":217.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.54971875,"end":218.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.40596875000003,"end":221.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.03846875000002,"end":225.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.12221875,"end":229.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.15534375000001,"end":235.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.21346875,"end":258.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.82596875,"end":266.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.67784375,"end":262.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.14971875000003,"end":266.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.85846875000004,"end":282.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.03034375000004,"end":274.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.72534375000004,"end":286.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.36159375,"end":288.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.15034375,"end":290.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.70284375,"end":292.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.48721875,"end":294.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.07346875,"end":298.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.61284375,"end":305.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.67096875000004,"end":306.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.83534375,"end":311.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.32409375000003,"end":312.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.70346875,"end":315.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.03221875,"end":322.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.32221875000005,"end":326.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.60846875000004,"end":331.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.96221875000003,"end":332.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.39659375,"end":334.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.96596875,"end":347.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.34784375000004,"end":360.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.15596875,"end":362.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.14721875000004,"end":364.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.20596875,"end":369.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.96471875000003,"end":377.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.45721875000004,"end":384.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.16909375,"end":417.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.28659375,"end":422.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.61034375,"end":426.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.49596875000003,"end":426.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.03596875000005,"end":430.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.06909375000004,"end":433.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.85346875000005,"end":435.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.75596875,"end":440.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.29971875,"end":445.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.56471875000005,"end":447.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.84284375000004,"end":453.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.28909375,"end":457.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.27596875,"end":463.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.39721875000004,"end":474.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.23534375,"end":478.01534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.11221875,"end":490.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.48596875000004,"end":492.46034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.54471875,"end":496.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.75096875,"end":498.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.15159375,"end":498.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.38346875,"end":506.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.42971875,"end":499.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.79659375000006,"end":501.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.63534375000006,"end":515.0222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":515.5790937500001,"end":519.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.29159375,"end":523.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.6453437499999,"end":529.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.15909375,"end":535.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.62221875,"end":538.6472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.54159375,"end":550.9153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.3034687500001,"end":554.9990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.7922187500001,"end":559.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.9097187500001,"end":566.7609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":567.0478437500001,"end":589.6940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.8459687500001,"end":590.8584687499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.701,"end":23.027,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長好 請交通部陳部長委員好 部長好部長我現在有一個資料就是高齡駕駛高齡駕駛65歲以上的發生車禍的比例蠻高 大概20%20幾%"},{"start":33.973,"end":62.227,"text":"好那這個部分其實讓我想到台灣的駕照平常考完了換照的機制部長有清楚嗎報告委員就高齡的部分我們確實是有換照的機制那針對他的認知功能的部分我們也會做這個檢測那我們希望說高齡的這個照試率可以下降這個部分我們有在做對所以這個其實要特別的做因為高齡的"},{"start":64.328,"end":84.287,"text":"長者通常他會覺得他沒有問題他覺得說為什麼你要找我麻煩為什麼我不能開車但是他的身體機能退化之後可能他自己不是那麼的清楚所以我們看一下世界各國的比較"},{"start":86.471,"end":108.702,"text":"日本是70歲以上每5年要換照韓國是65歲一接新加坡是65歲以上美國跟英國是70歲跟丹麥是70歲以上我們台灣現在是75歲以上每3年要換一次所以我是認為這個有檢討的必要"},{"start":113.24,"end":127.881,"text":"那部長知道其他國家他們平常我們台灣是一張駕照考完以後就等到老的時候才來換照對不對其他的國家中間有沒有換照您知道嗎這個我不曉得是不是縣市長"},{"start":129.831,"end":145.081,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告一下確實這個其他國家的規定有點不太一樣我跟委員報告一下我們現行是這一個就是說我們原來以前的部分是六年這一個換照一次那職業駕駛執照是這個三年要"},{"start":147.003,"end":164.779,"text":"這個審議一次那後來在102年的時候那也是這個院裡面交通委員會這邊這個決議說這個要求這個部裡面要來檢討是不是不要6年這個婚外一次但是剛剛我們所提到國外的情況那國外的情況確實也有6年那也有10年那也有"},{"start":165.439,"end":193.468,"text":"後來譬如說我們現在後來102.0這個檢討那這個就是說考上駕駛執照之後那原則上如果沒有被調扣調銷那大概就是到75歲再回家換對就是終身嘛對對對那終身的這樣的部分其實在法國在歐洲有些國家也是用這個終身來那個所以加照管理的一個這個部分基本上大概各國都會有一些這個差異我是建議說我們統一做個思考啦就是比較各國的好壞嘛"},{"start":194.748,"end":218.296,"text":"那其實大部分的國家中間都有換照的機制啊那他們換照的機制是根據體檢比如說你十年也好或幾年也好你必須去體檢因為一輩子身體的狀況一定會不一樣我年輕的時候考了照結果我中間身體發生什麼狀況但是我們的"},{"start":219.711,"end":229.382,"text":"駕照還是都不變那也許他身體發生狀況他就不能再開了那也許是年紀老化他沒有辦法再開了"},{"start":230.236,"end":257.874,"text":"但是一般人都不清楚以為說我就都可以開當然我們站在人民的角度他自己當然不希望你來擾亂我不需要去換照啦以人民的角度當然他最希望是這樣子但是呢 以安全的角度 以整個道路整個行駛 讓國人安全的角度事實上我是認為是有必要可以去做一下檢討"},{"start":258.897,"end":287.676,"text":"是 報告委員我覺得這個部分是有必要做檢討那我們目前交通部內部也在做這個檢討這方面的檢討有在做了對但是委員可以提更好的一些建議啦我們也都會參考例如說委員覺得頻率應該怎麼樣抓會比較好或者說年紀應該怎麼抓會比較好或者是我們在換照的過程當中應該有加入哪一些檢測的方案也歡迎委員們給我們所以我就說我們交通部統一做個規劃嘛你比如說10年需要體檢"},{"start":289.197,"end":314.762,"text":"然後來換照表示你身體狀況沒問題嘛那比如說你75歲以上或者是70歲以上也需要體檢因為我的意思就是說每個人身體的機能改變之後我就舉我爸的例子幾年前我就請他不要開車他就一直要開他說為什麼我不能開那我就說你已經"},{"start":316.393,"end":321.66,"text":"視力有減退 那你不適合開他就會說 我就有駕照啊 我身體還好 為什麼我不能開"},{"start":323.533,"end":346.57,"text":"那後來我們就叫他真的去檢查視力真的是有減退所以我們好不容易才勸導他說好啦 我們身體狀況改變 該調整的就是要調整不然不是為了你自己安全而已 你還顧著別人的安全所以其實這是一個很明顯的例子啦我是覺得 那長輩通常他會認為說我沒問題啦"},{"start":348.667,"end":363.908,"text":"但是事實上可能身體狀況已經改變了他還是認為是他沒問題所以我覺得這個應該是整體來做一個思考好那再來就是說我們的那個JAS我們這個所有的那個"},{"start":365.273,"end":383.829,"text":"客運車的那個數量現在都在減少所以你看我們偏鄉的老人為什麼他還想要開車我交通不方便嘛所以你看我們的客運車國道還是偏鄉的這些路線都在減少當中那這個交通部有沒有什麼補救的方案"},{"start":385.416,"end":412.45,"text":"報告委員就客運的部分我們當然一直在協助客運業者我們希望路線要維持住因為很多的客運雖然大家現在很多人是搭雙鐵但是客運等於是我們的末梢成金必須要做好所以除了一般的客運以外我們也有做幸福巴士委員剛剛所提到的偏鄉的部分我們就是用幸福巴士來補齊那我本身也有到基層下去看去偏鄉看幸福巴士的成效算是不錯那目前也變成更彈性用預約制的"},{"start":413.37,"end":435.598,"text":"讓偏鄉的公共運輸能夠做得起來這個其實就是我以前曾經要求過現在我們來檢視一下就是大概做了多少比如說你拿我們高雄來講高雄現在52條小黃公車路線事實上高雄應該是最早做的啦那也做得最好的"},{"start":436.954,"end":461.573,"text":"那有很多的長輩 事實上我們不管是固定的路線還是預約的路線我們都會盡量去長輩設想這也先公車的事情啦你講起來去省省的 一台車這麼大台 開在一個人兩個人你用公車小房 又省錢 又方便甚至公車小房的設計也是很好 你就坐到這裡車這麼高你到底在哪裡 我在這裡等你"},{"start":465.108,"end":477.817,"text":"這個感覺就好很多所以高雄市事實上我們辦到現在一直都覺得成效蠻不錯那我想知道就其他的縣市現在是不是都有比照辦理了推動的效果如何"},{"start":480.107,"end":494.97,"text":"跟委員報告一下那個數字我不是很精準但是在186個鄉鎮大概有480幾條這個幸福巴士包括這個小黃公車的一個路線180個鄉鎮186然後480幾條這個路線480幾條平均4條那這個陳副剛剛委員所提到的部分確實這個目前推的這個規模比較大就是高雄市跟這個屏東"},{"start":506.693,"end":524.919,"text":"OK 我是希望說你們再推一下啦剛你的數據平均一個鄉鎮4條我們高雄52條差不多我們高雄38個鄉鎮所以就是說這個希望說交通部繼續推那你們這個公運計畫114年編列的剛剛那一張114年編列的經費現在被凍結的狀況"},{"start":536.833,"end":554.658,"text":"會影響到你們推動這個計畫嗎跟委員報告一下確實對於地方的補出是有影響但是裡面有關於小黃公車的部分就是偏鄉興福巴士的部分我們是列為第一優先OK好那現在我們大概總結一下就是"},{"start":555.896,"end":572.598,"text":"高齡的駕照跟平常的駕照是不是需要體檢來換照然後來維護我們交通整體的安全那偏鄉的客運的國道的不足的部分我們的幸福小黃"},{"start":573.479,"end":590.125,"text":"幸福巴士希望說公路局在這一方面可以繼續加強來照顧偏鄉的老人至少他可以不用開車他有車座他自然就會比較少開車所以這個整體的交通安全希望我們交通部再做一個整體的思考好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":946,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（12時23分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：部長好。部長，我現在有一個資料，就是高齡駕駛65歲以上發生車禍的比率滿高，大概是百分之二十幾，這個部分讓我想到臺灣的駕照平常考完了，換照的機制，部長清楚嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，就高齡的部分我們確實是有換照的機制，針對他的認知功能我們也會做檢測，希望高齡的肇事率可以下降，這部分我們有在做。"],["許委員智傑：對，這個其實要特別注意，因為高齡的長者通常會覺得他沒有問題，他覺得為什麼你要找我麻煩？為什麼我不能開車？但是他的身體機能退化之後，可能他自己不是那麼清楚。","我們看一下世界各國的比較，日本是70歲以上每5年要換照；韓國是65歲一階，75歲一階；新加坡是65歲以上；美國、英國跟丹麥是70歲以上；我們臺灣現在是75歲以上每3年換一次，所以我認為有檢討的必要。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["許委員智傑：那部長知道像我們臺灣是一張駕照考完以後，等到老的時候才來換照，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["許委員智傑：其他的國家中間有沒有換照，您知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這個我不曉得，是不是請司長來說明？"],["林司長福山：這個部分跟委員報告，確實，其他國家的規定有一點不太一樣啦！我們以前原來是6年換照一次，職業駕駛執照是3年要審議一次，後來在102年的時候，也是院裡面交通委員會這邊決議，要求部裡面來檢討是不是不要6年換發一次。剛剛委員提到國外的情況，確實也有6年、也有10年，也有像我們102年有做檢討，就是考上駕駛執照之後，原則上如果沒有被吊扣、吊銷，大概就是到75歲再回來換。"],["許委員智傑：對，就是終身嘛！"],["林司長福山：對，終身的部分，其實在法國、在歐洲有些國家也是用終身，所以駕照管理基本上各國都會有一些差異。"],["許委員智傑：我是建議我們統一做個思考，就是比較各國的好壞嘛！其實大部分的國家中間都有換照的機制，他們換照的機制是根據體檢，比如說你10年也好或幾年也好，你必須去體檢，因為一輩子的身體狀況一定會不一樣，我年輕的時候考了照，結果我中間身體發生什麼狀況，但是我們的駕照還是都不變，也許他身體發生狀況就不能再開車，也許是年紀老化沒有辦法再開車了，但是一般人都不清楚，以為自己都可以開。","如果我們站在人民的角度，他當然不希望你來擾亂我，不希望去換照啦！以人民的角度，當然他最希望是這樣子。但是以安全的角度，以整個道路、整個行駛讓國人安全的角度，事實上我是認為有必要去做一下檢討。"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，我覺得這個部分是有必要做檢討，目前交通部內部也在做檢討，這方面的檢討有在做了，但是委員可以提更好的一些建議，我們也都會參考，例如委員覺得頻率應該怎麼樣抓會比較好，或者是年紀應該怎麼抓會比較好，或者是在換照的過程當中應該加入哪一些檢測方案，也歡迎委員們給我們建議。"],["許委員智傑：對，所以我就說交通部統一做個規劃嘛！比如10年需要體檢然後來換照，表示你身體狀況沒問題，比如75歲以上或者是70歲以上也需要體檢，我的意思是說，每個人的身體機能改變之後，我就舉我爸爸的例子，幾年前我就請他不要開車，他就一直要開，他說為什麼我不能開？我說你視力已經有減退，不適合開，他覺得我就有駕照啊！我身體還好，為什麼不能開？後來我們就真的叫他去檢查視力，真的是有減退，所以我們好不容易才勸導他說。因為我們身體狀況改變，該調整的就是要調整，不是只為了你自己的安全，你要顧慮到別人的安全。所以其實這是一個很明顯的例子。我是覺得，長輩通常會認為自己沒問題，但是事實上可能身體狀況已經改變了，他還是認為他沒問題，所以我覺得這個應該整體來做一個思考。","再來就是駕駛，所有客運車的數量現在都在減少，所以你看我們偏鄉的老人為什麼還想要開車，因為交通不方便嘛，所以你看我們的客運車，不管是國道還是偏鄉這些路線都在減少當中，這個部分交通部有沒有什麼補救的方案？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，就客運的部分，我們當然一直在協助客運業者，我們希望路線要維持住，雖然大家現在很多是搭雙鐵，但是客運等於是我們的末梢神經，必須要做好，所以除了一般的客運以外，我們也有做幸福巴士，委員剛剛所提到偏鄉的部分，我們就是用幸福巴士來補齊。我本身也有到基層下去看，我去偏鄉看，幸福巴士的成效算是不錯，那目前也變得更彈性，用預約制的，讓偏鄉的公共運輸能夠做得起來。"],["許委員智傑：OK。這個其實就是我以前曾經要求過，現在我們來檢視一下大概做了多少，比如拿我們高雄來講，高雄現在52條小黃公車路線，事實上高雄應該是最早做的，也做得最好，不管是固定的路線，還是預約的路線，我們都會儘量去為長輩設想，這也是省公車的錢，因為說起來你算算看，一台車這麼大台，只載一個人、兩個人，你用公車小黃，又省錢又方便，甚至公車小黃的司機也是很好，載到車站以後知道乘客家在附近，就載他回去，這個感覺就好很多，所以高雄市事實上辦到現在，一直都覺得成效滿不錯。我想知道其他的縣市現在是不是都有比照辦理？推動的效果如何？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，那個數字我不是很清楚，但是在186個鄉鎮大概有四百八十幾條路線的幸福巴士，包括小黃公車的路線。"],["許委員智傑：186個鄉鎮，四百八十幾條路線，平均4條。"],["林司長福山：誠如剛剛委員所提到的，確實目前推的規模比較大的就是高雄市跟屏東。"],["許委員智傑：OK。我是希望你們再推一下。剛剛你的數據平均一個鄉鎮4條，我們高雄52條，高雄有38個鄉鎮，所以我希望交通部繼續推。有關你們的公運計畫在民國114年編列的經費，現在被凍結的狀況會影響到你們推動這個計畫嗎？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，確實對於地方的補助是有影響，但是裡面有關於小黃公車的部分，就是偏鄉幸福巴士的部分，我們是列為第一優先。"],["許委員智傑：OK。好，現在我們大概總結一下，就是高齡的駕照跟平常的駕照是不是需要體檢來換照，來維護我們交通整體的安全？至於偏鄉客運在國道不足的部分，我們的幸福小黃、幸福巴士，我希望公路局在這一方面可以繼續加強，來照顧偏鄉的老人，至少他們可以不用開車，有車坐，他們自然就會比較少開車，所以對於整體的交通安全，我希望我們交通部再做一個整體的思考，謝謝。"],["林司長福山：好。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝許智傑召委。","現在請王義川委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160818","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160818","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b94236963b981cd1fedc74d385a4fd0f0fffa4998ab4b80bc74e67d0a3ad233f9b498fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"12:08:57 - 12:23:15","影片長度":"00:14:18","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:08:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:23:15+08:00","duration":858,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.03034375,"end":11.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10.695968750000002,"end":11.134718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.180968750000002,"end":12.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.99096875,"end":13.615343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14.762843750000002,"end":14.796593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.796593750000003,"end":15.809093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14.813468750000002,"end":18.340343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.445968750000002,"end":18.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18.47534375,"end":19.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.06596875,"end":19.504718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20.399093750000002,"end":21.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.06971875,"end":22.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.89659375,"end":23.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":23.04846875,"end":23.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.16659375,"end":25.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25.32659375,"end":29.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.97159375,"end":29.562218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":29.562218750000003,"end":29.612843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.612843750000003,"end":29.629718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":30.32159375,"end":32.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.74721875,"end":36.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":35.09721875,"end":39.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.565343750000004,"end":37.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.087218750000005,"end":46.352843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.27659375,"end":51.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.60096875,"end":53.642843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.09846875,"end":58.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.211593750000006,"end":59.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.814718750000004,"end":64.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.79721875,"end":73.26846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.09534375,"end":75.41159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.57596875,"end":81.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.92534375000001,"end":84.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":84.97971875,"end":88.92846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.43909375000001,"end":91.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":91.10534375,"end":91.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.56096875,"end":98.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.80034375000001,"end":99.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.22221875000001,"end":102.17534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.14159375000001,"end":102.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.86721875,"end":105.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.36471875000001,"end":106.00596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.86659375,"end":107.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.19971875,"end":108.95909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.54971875000001,"end":118.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.76346875,"end":123.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.11284375000001,"end":127.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.11659375,"end":127.74096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.41596875000002,"end":129.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.42846875,"end":133.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.57971875,"end":136.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.93784375,"end":138.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.84471875,"end":139.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.23284375,"end":142.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.92409375,"end":145.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.89846875,"end":149.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.45909375000002,"end":150.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.99471875,"end":159.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.39846875,"end":159.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.36034375,"end":161.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.92971875,"end":175.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.75034375,"end":177.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.87659375,"end":178.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.47971875000002,"end":180.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.08284375000002,"end":184.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.09909375,"end":187.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.49534375000002,"end":188.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.69346875000002,"end":204.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.06221875,"end":205.11284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.12971875000002,"end":209.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.25971875000002,"end":212.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.33096875,"end":214.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.13659375,"end":218.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.13596875000002,"end":237.14159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.29346875000002,"end":242.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.55846875,"end":258.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.43784375,"end":262.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.36971875,"end":292.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.64346875,"end":293.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":293.33534375,"end":294.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":294.31409375000004,"end":295.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":295.66409375,"end":296.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.76096875,"end":298.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.61721875,"end":314.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":313.28159375,"end":335.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.26534375,"end":346.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":346.96409375,"end":353.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":354.28784375000004,"end":358.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":359.40096875,"end":360.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":360.24471875,"end":365.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":365.52659375,"end":369.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.35721875,"end":373.91346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":374.13284375,"end":375.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":375.97221875,"end":376.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.01846875,"end":385.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":386.45159375000003,"end":392.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":393.18471875,"end":398.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":399.47909375,"end":401.72346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":402.06096875000003,"end":403.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.42346875000004,"end":411.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":411.42659375000005,"end":412.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":413.08034375000005,"end":414.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":414.85221875,"end":415.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":416.03346875000005,"end":417.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":417.78846875000005,"end":418.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":418.42971875,"end":428.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":428.68971875000005,"end":455.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":455.77409375,"end":460.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":460.39784375000005,"end":467.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":467.70471875000004,"end":475.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":476.02409375,"end":493.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":493.70909375,"end":511.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":511.90034375000005,"end":513.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":514.6340937499999,"end":517.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":517.1653437499999,"end":519.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":519.9328437500001,"end":520.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":520.57409375,"end":522.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":522.86909375,"end":524.0503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":524.52284375,"end":525.7209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":526.1765937499999,"end":528.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":528.5559687500001,"end":528.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":530.15909375,"end":530.4965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":530.6147187500001,"end":531.8972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":532.4878437500001,"end":533.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":533.51721875,"end":534.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":534.22596875,"end":535.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":536.20034375,"end":541.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":541.8703437500001,"end":544.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":545.09346875,"end":545.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":545.61659375,"end":548.5022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":548.73846875,"end":560.4497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":560.70284375,"end":562.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.94721875,"end":563.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":563.03159375,"end":563.3015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":563.3015937499999,"end":563.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":563.31846875,"end":563.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":563.74034375,"end":565.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":565.3603437500001,"end":565.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":566.0859687500001,"end":569.7309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":570.49034375,"end":579.7378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":580.5478437500001,"end":588.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":588.3103437500001,"end":592.5290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":592.9509687500001,"end":602.2322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":602.72159375,"end":606.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":607.5478437500001,"end":609.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":610.31534375,"end":613.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":613.25159375,"end":615.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":615.5634687500001,"end":618.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":619.29284375,"end":622.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":623.2078437499999,"end":628.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":629.02971875,"end":631.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":631.2065937500001,"end":632.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":632.4722187500001,"end":633.5522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":634.04159375,"end":635.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":635.37471875,"end":636.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":637.41659375,"end":638.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":639.67784375,"end":653.9878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":654.5447187500001,"end":658.2234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":658.2234687499999,"end":658.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":659.25284375,"end":680.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.40596875,"end":679.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.8022187500001,"end":687.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.07534375,"end":692.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.26034375,"end":702.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":702.53721875,"end":708.1397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":708.3928437500001,"end":714.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":713.82659375,"end":715.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":716.08784375,"end":729.6553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":729.97596875,"end":730.6003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":730.80284375,"end":731.0222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":731.7309687500001,"end":732.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":732.7097187500001,"end":733.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":733.46909375,"end":735.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":735.35909375,"end":738.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":738.73409375,"end":755.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":756.38534375,"end":756.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":757.1615937500001,"end":760.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":760.9753437500001,"end":763.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":763.2365937500001,"end":764.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":764.6709687500002,"end":768.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":770.17221875,"end":778.4240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":778.8290937500001,"end":781.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":781.73159375,"end":796.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":797.1553437500002,"end":800.8172187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":803.1965937500001,"end":804.8334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":806.2847187500001,"end":827.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":827.6147187500001,"end":833.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":831.95159375,"end":832.8797187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":833.18346875,"end":836.2040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":834.9722187500001,"end":835.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":836.2040937500001,"end":838.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":838.3134687500001,"end":842.7178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":842.78534375,"end":843.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":843.5615937500002,"end":857.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":857.21346875,"end":857.97284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.022,"end":29.044,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請我們交通部陳部長好 交通部陳部長鐵道局楊局長好 鐵道局楊局長台鐵公司馮總好 馮總有到嗎台鐵 台鐵吳總吳董事長吳董事長 台鐵 台鐵嗎台鐵來 吳董事長吳董事長 台鐵公司本身沒來你就代表了有有有 台鐵公司 那個總經理也在啊還有總經理也有來"},{"start":33.786,"end":59.765,"text":"沒有啦 不見啦 喔沒有好 進來 進來總經理來委員好好首先我們討論鐵道的一個安全啦當然除了這個軌道本身 鐵路本身之外我們整個戰區的安全也是整體安全之一啦那這個部分"},{"start":60.845,"end":63.087,"text":"好幾個問題第一個部長電梯大概你可以撐幾分鐘關在裡面耐力有沒有測試過有沒有不小心被測試過"},{"start":85.189,"end":103.547,"text":"沒有不小心被測試過但如果超過5分鐘我大概會蠻害怕我是覺得我最多10分鐘我會受不了5分鐘我覺得還是我覺得馮總經理你會不會比較容易因為台鐵訓練的關係大概在電梯裡面可以撐多久一般大概15分鐘應該就是好那4月19號發生了這個因為"},{"start":106.91,"end":123.03,"text":"你在中壢站全台灣吞吐量第三大站而且你又在你的管制區內的電梯其實人經常是還滿滿的所以那種壓力比我們一般一個人兩個人在電梯裡面壓力是更大"},{"start":124.151,"end":142.332,"text":"那我們現在的問題點是發生什麼事4月19號之後他按當時有這個通知所以他這個新聞是5天之後才做的然後記者是裡面沒有幾人他在測試結果在測試的過程中他測試結果說怎麼找不到人然後按照上面的電話去打"},{"start":143.953,"end":159.515,"text":"打個電話說在開會下午一點打電話開會然後到四點了 三個小時啊到時候人還沒來還好是實驗啊 就演習啊可是回到四月十九號真正那天電梯裡面人是很多的然後按"},{"start":160.697,"end":174.819,"text":"緊急對講機這個我們最後了解我們台鐵公司有人接喔有人的值班好像是副站長第一時間就走到電梯旁邊就跟他們對看對看可是對看沒什麼用嘛那"},{"start":175.96,"end":204.013,"text":"發生什麼事就要請這個修電梯的來最後40分鐘40分鐘等他40分鐘真的是也沒有辦法在場的消防隊還是消防隊把他打開的所以我要拜託你們因為各地都有這樣的一個電梯而且你們包括還沒上台的這個高鐵都一樣那個人都很擁擠你們的SOP怎麼樣我不清楚後面疑問說我們的合約是一個小時以內要到我的天啊"},{"start":205.009,"end":218.088,"text":"那不長五分鐘我就說十分鐘啦我跟你講喔 修電梯跟救人是完全兩件事完全不同的事情嘛所以我要拜託一下喔 你們SOP齁是不是"},{"start":219.198,"end":236.93,"text":"你要救人一定要優先啊如果電梯要希望恢復正常如果你一個小時以內還可以接受所以那一天啊我想陳文哲副局長也在那邊就說我們有特別做了一個幾個建議啊說你們要回去研究那個總經理說一下研究結果能夠縮短到什麼時間救人救人"},{"start":237.61,"end":258.095,"text":"報告委員我們現在目前廠商的時間我們已經縮短到30分鐘因為也是委員當場在現場會刊給我們一個指導要求那但是第一時間我們的這個對講機會連線我們的行車室我們第一時間我們值班副站長就一定會到這個電梯去關懷被受困的旅客"},{"start":258.655,"end":276.908,"text":"那這個部分是回答委員剛才說這個時間的問題好第二個問題30分鐘事實上他到了那你們的合約啦我也沒辦法可是對於救人來講還是稍微長了一點所以我要拜託你第一個如果在電梯在正常的位置的時候我要拜託你們的工作人員"},{"start":277.628,"end":296.155,"text":"因為很多機械都會嘛也要有一些值班人員對於簡單如果電梯沒有到定位一個樓層的定位那是誰也沒辦法啦說真的如果要到定位可以對到門我們是希望第一個我們在這個台鐵台鐵的各站要有人"},{"start":296.855,"end":313.618,"text":"就能夠第一優先解決第二個呢消防隊到的也能夠讓他去做處理因為那天消防隊到說打電話給公司公司才說你不要碰我電梯啊這個這樣不行欸救人優先可不可以部長講一下你就救人優先吧你做個結論好不好"},{"start":314.079,"end":335.333,"text":"當然是要救人優先,我的想法跟您一樣,就是說我們在站裡面的戰務人員有沒有這個基礎可以去處理的這個能力,這個部分其實是可以訓練的,可以讓他們有這樣子的能力,可以快速先來解決,不然對民眾來講,我即便看到你在窗外,但我出不去我心裡面會非常害怕,所以這個部分請台鐵公司趕快來落實。"},{"start":336.291,"end":358.613,"text":"好的麻煩這個全國有相關情況都改善一下尤其它這個是四座電梯兩座是在外圍的行人也可以走是中壢區公所管理的內圍的是台鐵的所以這個部分麻煩你們要合作一下那接下來我們在台鐵的總體檢我們發覺已經大概兩千多天了六年半"},{"start":359.451,"end":385.39,"text":"六年半 這從普悠瑪事件我們政府下定決心要給台鐵做一個總體檢那事實上解決了 你們也解決很多一個列管那現在為什麼在安全改革 總共16項但我比較care 安全改革到底發生什麼問題我們看右邊 因為你們總體檢要解除列管的流程第一個是台鐵先自己擬定改善計畫"},{"start":386.511,"end":402.988,"text":"第二個呢你們成立一個安全管理這個委員會來做這個計畫的一個審查你知道嗎過去台鐵在交通部啊還沒成立公司的時候我覺得這合理啦那現在他公司化你知道嗎第一關也是台鐵"},{"start":404.468,"end":428.081,"text":"然後審查台鐵報告的人雖然有外聘委員大概五到六位啦總共十幾位裡面他也是台鐵內部所以第一關台鐵提報告計畫第二關也是台鐵那整個弄好之後才有第三關解除列管部長你覺得這個程序在他們公式化之後要不要第二關給鐵道局還是誰你說一下吧"},{"start":428.72,"end":455,"text":"是 報告委員過去的流程是這個樣子那現在改制公司化之後確實這個流程我們來做一下檢討有沒有可能稍微做改變或者是說合理性到底應該怎麼做會比較合理這個部分我認為是應該做檢討畢竟公司化之後跟過去的狀況是完全不一樣的現在的台鐵是公司它不像過去是公務機關它有一些公權力那目前的台鐵是公司不一定有這個公權力在這個部分我們來做檢討"},{"start":455.814,"end":475.194,"text":"好 謝謝部長跟鐵道局你們研究一下啦因為第一個才剛寫完報告不管是機電什麼問題他寫完報告然後他又入列來審查這個 我是覺得有點奇怪那我們來看看安全管委會現在是在台鐵公司裡面雖然有部分的外聘委員討論一些結果"},{"start":476.235,"end":493.136,"text":"當然我不知道會不會有以偏概全哇 你全部都做得很好100項99項都做好被魯明哲委員挑了一項會不會有這種情況我不清楚啊不過我們來看一下這個安全委員會你們台鐵也通過囉改善報告台鐵公司寫的然後自己審查覺得OK審查事項是什麼呢"},{"start":494.657,"end":518.982,"text":"說希望能夠導入自動化跟智慧化系統用系統來簡化人力避免他們犯錯就是原本也沒有有一些系統希望能夠導入這個用詞很清楚然後簡化一些人力的疏失系統可以發現結果你們也通過安全管理委員會的一個審議我蠻佩服的台鐵公司提了三個方案"},{"start":520.78,"end":543.892,"text":"導入自動化跟智慧化 是我沒看懂嗎第一 強化各單位人員現場實作的訓練沒有系統嘛第二 成立北中南東的員工訓練所弄四根教室出來 讓人可以培訓第三 對我們人員建立回訓制度"},{"start":545.712,"end":569.193,"text":"因為時間的關係我就覺得說沒有對到答案這是不是其他的改善事項的答案不小心放在這邊是什麼情況那這個麻煩你們回去研究一下時間的關係那我想請教一下交通部部長剛剛是第二關啦這個安全委員會他的審查最終"},{"start":570.743,"end":579.509,"text":"亂完之後要解除列管要送交通部要審查同意解除列管那我們又看了一個是你們已經解除列管"},{"start":580.612,"end":601.147,"text":"解除裂管是什麼呢 平交到防護設施異常訊號處理那什麼時候解除裂管呢 在圖的下方去年的5月15號解除裂管就應該沒問題了 改善完畢了但是呢 改善完畢不到18天 新聞媒體在報這邊是好像是嘉義的新聞 說半年大概四五次"},{"start":602.788,"end":618.151,"text":"平交到一個防護的一個相關的柵欄還是一直有問題那其實蠻危險的有問題到列車要停下來然後列車站長下來然後配合用手動再把這樣的一個"},{"start":619.352,"end":637.992,"text":"相關的一個設施做一個處理那我們再看右邊的圖呢就是你解列之前113年5月份解除列管往前推10個月以台鐵跟網的報告發生了7件類似的事件但你解除列管往後推10個月發生了11件"},{"start":639.704,"end":658.452,"text":"那我是因為我覺得民眾包括我們你們想法都一樣我們希望大家努力了半天報告也寫了我相信也想辦法去落實想辦法去改善終於解除列管了可是感覺實際效果不夠啊部長你說一下你的想法好不好"},{"start":659.352,"end":680.218,"text":"劣管如果要解除必然是達到我們認為他會改善的標準我們才會解除劣管所以我們當然期待說解除劣管之後要看出改善的成效那不過就委員所提出來的這個很明顯看出來很像沒有改善的成效那這個原因要不要台鐵要不要說一下我們解除了劣管但是之後卻更多"},{"start":680.868,"end":705.369,"text":"報告委員解除列管是因為我們自動障礙物偵測已經建完了測試驗收那為什麼在解除列管以後一段時間內還比較數量比較多是因為我們採用自動化的偵測所以有的人或是相關的物品在我們的防護區內他會告警告警我們的列車就會一度停車等這個確認沒有障礙物他才會通行"},{"start":705.709,"end":728.167,"text":"那現在目前整個系統的這個整個妥善率還有他的精準率都提高了所以現在這種情形其實是已經所以在晚3月你是叫我在往14年今年3月再往後看10個月沒關係我們下次來看一下我們總而言之我們希望實際解決問題不是paperwork文件最後怎麼樣去追蹤那請問一下"},{"start":733.551,"end":750.495,"text":"我們楊局長鐵道局因為我們有聽到有針對於這種安全的一個事項解除列管後面到底怎麼追蹤我們有看到你有專訪過你那你這邊特別寫解除列管分成三大類只要有明確執行的計畫著手執行就會從總體檢中解除列管這個沒問題"},{"start":756.477,"end":778.076,"text":"然後再來改由鐵道局的定期檢查機制來追蹤那我覺得這個追蹤那我剛剛講的情況你有沒有追蹤我不太清楚那可是之前王國才當部長的時候他特別說了一件事他說如果台鐵公司化之後"},{"start":779.117,"end":800.334,"text":"鐵道局代辦台鐵的工程他覺得不太適合來監管台鐵球員兼裁判我自己做的然後我再看看我做的好不好然後這個他是覺得有點奇怪然後他希望能夠把鐵道局的監管單位直接移到交通部這個大概目前的方向是如何你們說明一下做個結論目前有嗎 有在做嗎"},{"start":806.814,"end":835.02,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下那個鐵路法已經修過了那只要是這個台鐵營運上面的監理就是我們鐵道局那鐵道局的工程監理那基本上就在部裡面那以前是在這一個路政司那現在改組完之後是在路政道安司那有些案子也會到公共運輸監理室來那所以鐵道局本身工程的監理鐵路法已經修了現在就鐵道局就對了在部裡面"},{"start":836.46,"end":856.751,"text":"交通部 反正鐵道局那我最後的結論是說因為票價六月底就要漲了民眾期待的不管安全品質也希望部長跟我們台鐵公司大家一定要加油讓大家看到你說你票價漲了 安全沒有漲這是不行的 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":896,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（12時8分）謝謝主席，有請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：交通部陳部長。"],["魯委員明哲：鐵道局楊局長。"],["主席：鐵道局楊局長。"],["魯委員明哲：臺鐵公司馮總，馮總有到嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：伍董事長跟馮總。"],["主席：臺鐵伍董事長。"],["魯委員明哲：臺鐵公司本身沒來，你就代表啦！"],["陳部長世凱：有，臺鐵公司總經理也在。"],["魯委員明哲：馮總呢？"],["主席：總經理也有來。"],["魯委員明哲：沒有嗎？人不見了？"],["陳部長世凱：有，他在門口。"],["主席：進來了，總經理，來。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：好，首先我們討論鐵道的安全，當然除了軌道本身、鐵路本身之外，整個站區的安全也是整體安全之一。","（播放影片）"],["魯委員明哲：好，這個部分有幾個問題，第一個，部長，被關在電梯裡面，你大概可以撐幾分鐘？耐力有沒有測試過？有沒有不小心被測試過？"],["陳部長世凱：沒有不小心被測試過，但如果超過5分鐘，我大概會滿害怕。"],["魯委員明哲：我是覺得最多10分鐘我會受不了。"],["陳部長世凱：5分鐘我覺得會滿害怕。"],["魯委員明哲：馮總經理，你會不會比較勇一點？因為臺鐵訓練的關係，你大概在電梯裡面可以撐多久？"],["馮總經理輝昇：一般大概是15分鐘，謝謝。"],["魯委員明哲：好，4月19日發生的事，因為中壢站是全臺灣吞吐量第三大站，而且在管制區內的電梯其實人經常是滿滿的，所以比起一般一、兩個人在電梯裡面，壓力是更大。現在的問題點是發生什麼事？4月19日事發之後，因為當時有這個通知，所以這則新聞是5天之後才做的，然後記者在測試的過程中，電梯裡面沒有擠人，他測試結果是怎麼找不到人，他按照上面的電話去打，打了電話說在開會，下午1點打電話說在開會，然後到4點，等了3個小時，到最後人還沒來，還好是實驗，就是演習。可是真正回到4月19日那一天，電梯裡面的人是很多的，然後按緊急對講機，據我瞭解，臺鐵公司有人接哦！有人值班，好像是副站長第一時間就走到電梯旁邊跟他們對看，可是對看沒什麼用，那就要請修電梯的來，最後等他40分鐘，真的也沒有辦法，還是在場的消防隊把它打開的，所以我要拜託你們，因為各地都有這樣的電梯，包括高鐵也一樣，人都很擁擠啊！你們的SOP怎麼樣我不清楚，後面一問才知道你們的合約是1個小時以內要到，我的天啊！部長是5分鐘，我是10分鐘啦！我跟你講，修電梯跟救人完全是兩件事，完全不同的事情嘛！所以我要拜託一下，你們的SOP是不是救人一定要優先？如果電梯要修、要恢復正常，1個小時也許還可以接受，那一天陳文德副局長也在那邊，我們有特別做了幾個建議要你們回去研究，總經理，說一下吧！研究結果能夠縮短到什麼時間來救人？"],["馮總經理輝昇：報告委員，目前廠商的時間已經縮短到30分鐘，也是委員在現場會勘給我們的一個指導要求，但是第一時間我們的對講機會連線行車室，第一時間我們值班副站長一定會到這個電梯去關懷受困旅客，這個部分是回答委員剛才說的時間問題。"],["魯委員明哲：好，第二個問題，30分鐘事實上他到了，那是你們的合約啦！我也沒辦法，可是對於救人來講還是稍微長了一點，所以我要拜託你，如果電梯在正常位置的時候，我要拜託你們的工作人員，因為很多機械都會嘛！也要有一些值班人員做簡單的處理，如果電梯沒有到樓層的定位，說真的，那是誰也沒辦法啦！但是如果它到定位，可以對到門，我們是希望第一個，在臺鐵各站要有人能夠第一優先解決；第二個，消防隊有到的，也能夠讓他去做處理，因為那一天消防隊到打電話給公司，公司還叫他不要碰電梯，這樣不行欸！救人優先，來，部長講一下，你覺得救人優先吧？你做個結論，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，當然是要救人優先，我的想法和您一樣，關於我們在站裡面的站務人員有沒有這個基礎能力可以去處理，這個部分其實是可以訓練的，讓他們有這樣子的能力可以快速先來解決，不然對民眾來講，我即便看到你在窗外，但我出不去，心裡面會非常害怕，所以這個部分請臺鐵公司趕快來落實。"],["魯委員明哲：好的，麻煩把全國相關的情況都改善一下，尤其它這個是4座電梯，2座是在外圍，行人也可以走，是中壢區公所管理的，內圍的是臺鐵的，所以這個部分麻煩你們要合作一下。","接下來是臺鐵的總體檢，我們發覺已經兩千多天了，6年半，這是自普悠瑪事件之後，我們政府下定決心要給臺鐵做總體檢，事實上你們也解決了很多的列管，現在未解除列管的總共有16項，當然我比較care的是安全改革到底發生了什麼問題。我們看簡報右邊，你們的總體檢解除列管流程，第一個是臺鐵先自己擬定改善計畫，第二個是你們成立一個安全管理委員會來做計畫的審查。過去臺鐵在交通部，還沒有成立公司的時候，我覺得這個合理啦！現在它公司化了，你知道嗎？第一關是臺鐵，然後審查臺鐵報告的人，在十幾位裡面雖然有外聘委員5到6位，但它也是臺鐵內部，所以第一關臺鐵提報告計畫，第二關也是臺鐵，整個弄好之後才由第三關交通部解除列管，部長，你覺得這個程序在他們公司化之後，第二關要不要給鐵道局還是誰？你說一下好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，過去的流程是這個樣子，現在改制公司化之後，確實這個流程我們來做一下檢討，有沒有可能稍微做改變，或者是針對合理性，到底應該怎麼做會比較合理，這個部分我認為是應該做檢討，畢竟公司化之後跟過去的狀況是完全不一樣的。現在的臺鐵是公司，它不像過去是公務機關有一些公權力，目前的臺鐵是公司，不一定有這個公權力在，這個部分我們來做檢討。"],["魯委員明哲：好，謝謝部長，你們跟鐵道局研究一下啦！因為第一個，才剛寫完報告，不管是機電或什麼問題，它寫完報告，然後它又入列來審查，我覺得是有點奇怪。","我們來看看，安全管委會現在是在臺鐵公司裡面，雖然有部分的外聘委員，但是對於討論的一些結果，當然我不知道會不會有以偏概全，哇！你全部都做得很好，100項有99項都做好，被魯明哲委員挑了1項，會不會有這種情況我不清楚。不過我們來看一下，自帶安全委員會，你們臺鐵也通過囉！改善報告是臺鐵公司寫的，然後自己審查覺得OK，審查的事項是什麼呢？希望能夠導入自動化、智慧化系統來簡化人力，避免他們犯錯，就是原本沒有一些系統，希望能夠導入，這個用詞很清楚嘛！然後簡化一些人力的疏失，系統可以發現，結果呢？你們也通過安全管理委員會的審議，我滿佩服的，臺鐵公司提了3個方案，導入自動化跟智慧化，是我沒看懂嗎？第一，強化各單位人員現場實作訓練，沒有系統啊！第二，成立北中南東員工訓練所，弄了4個教室出來，讓人可以培訓。第三，對人員建立回訓制度。因為時間的關係，我是覺得沒有對到答案，是不是把其他改善事項的答案不小心放在這邊？這是什麼情況？這個麻煩你們回去研究一下。","我想請教一下交通部部長，剛剛是第二關安全委員會的審查，最終run完之後要解除列管，要送交通部審查同意解除列管，我們又看了一個是你們已經解除列管的，是什麼呢？平交道防護設施異常訊號處理，這是什麼時候解除列管的？在圖的下方，去年5月15日解除列管應該就沒問題了，改善完畢了，但是改善完畢不到18天，新聞媒體就在報，這好像是嘉義的新聞，說半年大概發生四、五次，平交道的防護柵欄還是一直有問題，其實滿危險的耶！有問題到列車要停下來，然後列車長下車配合手動，把相關的設施做個處理。","我們再看右邊的圖，在你解列之前，113年5月份解除列管往前推10個月，依臺鐵給我們的報告，發生了7件類似事件，但是你解除列管往後推10個月，發生了11件。因為我覺得民眾包括你們的想法都一樣，我們希望大家努力了半天，報告也寫了，我相信也想辦法去落實，想辦法去改善，終於解除列管了，可是感覺實際的效果不夠啊！部長，你說一下你的想法吧！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，列管如果要解除，必然是達到我們認為它會改善的標準，所以才會解除列管，我們當然期待解除列管之後要看出改善的成效，不過就委員所提出的這個部分，很明顯看出來很像沒有改善的成效，這個原因臺鐵要不要說一下？我們解除了列管，但是之後卻更多。"],["馮總經理輝昇：報告委員，解除列管是因為我們的自動障礙物偵測已經建完了，有測試、驗收，為什麼在解除列管以後一段時間內會數量比較多？是因為我們採用自動化偵測，所以有人或是相關的物品在防護區內它會告警，我們的列車就會一度停車，等確認沒有障礙物才會通行。目前整個系統的妥善率還有精準率都提高了，所以現在這種情形其實已經慢慢……"],["魯委員明哲：所以你是叫我從114年3月再往後看10個月？沒關係，我們下次來看一下。總而言之，我們希望實際解決問題，不是paperwork文件。","最後，怎麼樣去追蹤，請問一下鐵道局楊局長，針對這種安全事項解除列管，後面到底怎麼追蹤，我們有看到你的專訪，這邊特別寫到解除列管分成三大類，只要有明確執行計畫並著手執行，就會從總體檢中解除列管，這個沒問題。再來，改由鐵道局的定期檢查機制來追蹤，我覺得這個追蹤，我剛剛講的情況你有沒有追蹤，我不太清楚，可是之前王國材當部長的時候，他特別說了一件事，他說如果臺鐵公司化之後，鐵道局代辦臺鐵的工程，他覺得不太適合來監管臺鐵，因為球員兼裁判，我自己做的，然後我再看看我做得好不好，他是覺得有點奇怪，所以他希望能夠把鐵道局的監管單位直接移到交通部，大概目前的方向是如何？你們說明一下，做個結論。"],["林司長福山：這個部分我跟委員報告一下，鐵路法已經修過了，只要是臺鐵營運上面的監理就是我們鐵道局，至於鐵道局的工程監理，基本上就在部裡面，以前是在路政司，現在改組完之後是在路政道安司，有些案子也會到公共運輸監理司來，所以鐵道局本身工程的監理，鐵路法已經修了……"],["魯委員明哲：所以沒有問題？"],["林司長福山：對。"],["魯委員明哲：現在就由鐵道局就對了？"],["林司長福山：在部裡面。"],["魯委員明哲：確定哦？"],["陳部長世凱：交通部。"],["魯委員明哲：交通部，反正就是鐵道局的部分。","我最後的結論是，因為票價6月底就要漲了，對於民眾所期待的，不管是安全、品質，也希望部長跟臺鐵公司一定要加油，讓大家看到，不然你說你票價漲了，安全沒有漲，這是不行的，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲委員。","接下來請許智傑召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160817","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160817","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369acd83dc8460bbc1d385a4fd0f0fffa4998ab4b80bc74e67d905b1f1929327f535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:57:37 - 12:08:42","影片長度":"00:11:05","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:57:37+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:08:42+08:00","duration":665,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3.57471875,"end":7.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7.59096875,"end":8.637218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.637218750000002,"end":8.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9.075968750000001,"end":11.556593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.759093750000002,"end":13.277843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12.67034375,"end":16.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.94846875,"end":16.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.46721875,"end":17.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.402843750000002,"end":23.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23.41971875,"end":32.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":32.852843750000005,"end":36.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.80159375,"end":37.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":37.27409375,"end":42.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":42.84284375,"end":47.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":48.360968750000005,"end":49.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":49.727843750000005,"end":51.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.744718750000004,"end":52.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.461593750000006,"end":53.001593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":52.51221875,"end":56.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.085968750000006,"end":53.625968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":57.000968750000006,"end":62.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":63.90284375,"end":64.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":64.45971875000001,"end":64.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":64.74659375,"end":64.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":64.83096875000001,"end":64.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":64.84784375000001,"end":64.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":64.91534375,"end":64.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":64.96596875,"end":65.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":65.97846875,"end":66.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.64471875000001,"end":70.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.02409375,"end":71.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":71.05784375,"end":71.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":71.07471875,"end":73.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":73.26846875000001,"end":74.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":74.98971875000001,"end":75.59721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":76.22159375000001,"end":77.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":77.68971875000001,"end":78.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":79.46159375,"end":80.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":83.42721875000001,"end":86.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":87.71346875,"end":91.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":88.94534375,"end":88.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.84346875,"end":95.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":95.88096875000001,"end":102.20909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.89784375,"end":96.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":103.69409375000001,"end":107.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":107.92971875,"end":107.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.94659375,"end":108.06471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":108.06471875000001,"end":108.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.16596875,"end":108.25034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":108.25034375000001,"end":108.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.33471875000001,"end":109.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":109.43159375,"end":110.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.18221875,"end":114.79784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":114.42659375000001,"end":125.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.08409375000001,"end":119.42159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.02471875,"end":121.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.04159375,"end":124.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.93971875000001,"end":125.63159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":125.37846875000001,"end":129.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.02784375000002,"end":129.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":129.36096875,"end":130.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":130.54221875000002,"end":131.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.55471875,"end":131.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":131.95971875,"end":134.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.05221875,"end":134.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":134.38971875000001,"end":135.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":136.27971875,"end":138.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":139.24971875,"end":142.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.84409375,"end":143.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":143.09721875,"end":146.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.30346875,"end":146.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":146.75909375,"end":150.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.29846875,"end":152.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":151.34909375,"end":154.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.42034375,"end":154.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":154.70721875,"end":162.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":162.87471875,"end":168.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.40971875000002,"end":168.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":168.59534375,"end":169.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.91159375,"end":170.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":170.13096875000002,"end":172.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":172.98284375,"end":177.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":177.72471875000002,"end":180.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":178.43346875,"end":179.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.88034375,"end":181.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":181.09971875000002,"end":187.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.49534375000002,"end":187.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":187.78221875,"end":191.59596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.59596875000003,"end":191.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":191.86596875,"end":193.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":194.71784375000001,"end":196.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":196.86096875,"end":199.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":199.25721875000002,"end":200.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":200.94471875000002,"end":203.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":203.94846875000002,"end":208.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.96034375000002,"end":209.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":209.28096875,"end":209.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":210.74909375000001,"end":216.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":216.41909375,"end":219.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":220.21596875,"end":233.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":232.45034375,"end":233.36159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":233.29409375,"end":238.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.26409375000003,"end":236.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":239.33534375000002,"end":241.39409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.39409375000002,"end":241.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":241.73159375,"end":242.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":242.44034375,"end":244.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":244.76909375000002,"end":246.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":246.32159375,"end":249.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.57034375,"end":248.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.36346875,"end":248.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":250.74284375000002,"end":252.73409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":252.80159375000002,"end":254.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":254.75909375,"end":255.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":255.18096875,"end":257.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":257.83034375,"end":261.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.79596875000004,"end":261.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":261.81284375,"end":261.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":262.06596875,"end":263.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.75346875,"end":264.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":264.02346875,"end":264.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":265.00221875,"end":269.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":269.32221875,"end":271.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":271.76909375,"end":272.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":272.59596875,"end":278.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":277.27034375,"end":303.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":303.91596875000005,"end":318.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":308.03346875,"end":308.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":309.07971875000004,"end":309.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.58596875,"end":309.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":312.52221875000004,"end":312.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.97784375000003,"end":313.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":319.76159375000003,"end":324.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":324.84096875,"end":328.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":329.14409375,"end":329.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":329.90346875,"end":334.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":335.06721875,"end":335.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":335.79284375000003,"end":342.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":343.09971875,"end":344.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":344.53409375,"end":345.25971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":345.49596875000003,"end":347.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.50784375,"end":364.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":351.99284375,"end":353.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.58159375,"end":368.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.04096875000005,"end":368.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":368.07471875000005,"end":370.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":370.82534375,"end":374.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.27221875000004,"end":373.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":374.75721875000005,"end":374.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.77409375,"end":383.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":383.76846875,"end":387.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":388.03784375000004,"end":391.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":392.22284375000004,"end":400.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":400.71096875,"end":405.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":406.06034375,"end":414.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":414.97034375000004,"end":420.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":421.07909375,"end":427.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":427.89659375,"end":430.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":431.22096875000005,"end":443.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":443.59034375000005,"end":443.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":443.62409375000004,"end":457.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.98159375,"end":450.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":450.99846875000003,"end":451.01534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":451.01534375000006,"end":451.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":451.77471875000003,"end":452.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":452.02784375000005,"end":452.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":452.53409375,"end":452.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":452.55096875000004,"end":452.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":457.02284375000005,"end":463.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":459.67221875,"end":460.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":463.50284375,"end":467.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":467.48534375,"end":469.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":470.48909375000005,"end":473.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":473.29034375000003,"end":474.74159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":475.21409375,"end":478.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":479.01096875,"end":481.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":481.74471875,"end":484.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":484.54596875000004,"end":485.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":486.52034375000005,"end":491.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":491.97096875000005,"end":498.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":498.31596875,"end":498.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":498.60284375000003,"end":499.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":499.95284375000006,"end":503.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":503.58096875,"end":504.62721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":504.93096875000003,"end":506.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":506.44971875000005,"end":507.12471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":507.24284375,"end":509.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":509.08221875000004,"end":510.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":511.17471875,"end":513.9084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":514.29659375,"end":515.8997187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":516.1528437500001,"end":517.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":517.89096875,"end":522.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":522.31221875,"end":522.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":522.6159687500001,"end":531.2222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":531.67784375,"end":535.8797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.2165937500001,"end":540.5034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.53721875,"end":555.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.2922187500001,"end":542.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.85971875,"end":562.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":559.28534375,"end":559.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":561.81659375,"end":564.9890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":565.42784375,"end":582.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.1772187500001,"end":579.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":583.3659687500001,"end":595.4484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":595.7353437500001,"end":597.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":597.4397187500001,"end":598.2665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":598.63784375,"end":599.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":599.04284375,"end":607.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":607.66596875,"end":608.6953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":608.72909375,"end":631.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":632.6240937499999,"end":637.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":638.31096875,"end":640.6059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":640.84221875,"end":648.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":648.55409375,"end":649.3303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":649.7859687499999,"end":651.0515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":651.49034375,"end":657.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":657.54846875,"end":662.1553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":661.9865937500001,"end":664.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":663.3872187500001,"end":665.74971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.399,"end":8.283,"text":"謝謝主席 請交通部陳部長交通部陳部長鐵道局楊局長還有台鐵公司吳代理董事長"},{"start":23.524,"end":47.362,"text":"部長 午安我剛剛其實今天要問的剛剛在臨時提案因為主席英明先處理這個臨時提案所以我的想法其實我剛剛已經先講了一個簡要版那我想細節的部分來就教部長跟鐵路跟鐵道局這個六月這個鐵道鐵路海線的鐵路是不是要改點"},{"start":48.767,"end":73.989,"text":"對 6月改點6月20幾 23嘛 是嗎6月26那現在改點前這個西部就海線這個北上跟南下一天各有幾個班次海線 北上南下 麻煩提供一下平日89 假日91班對 如果經過我們台中的"},{"start":76.271,"end":94.518,"text":"北上是不是十一班南下是不是九班你就知道我要問這個 沒關係 自己說好我剛剛在臨時提案我已經講 等一下我再問這個陳追憲是沒錯 就是從大甲到台中我的意思很簡單 你們對這個資訊我剛剛已經提我已經非常重視這個題目"},{"start":103.749,"end":110.611,"text":"改班改班6月23日之後會不會減少不會不會減少時間有沒有不一樣"},{"start":112.422,"end":137.896,"text":"目前在海線的部分也沒有調整 也沒有調整唯一調整的就是因為你志強號要修理所以改成900型的那個區間塊的方式換車型啦 班次時間都沒有調整我這樣理解對嗎 對 好部長我想喔過去你在海線當議員過去我們也一起努力讓海線的班次現在"},{"start":139.278,"end":150.829,"text":"如果我的資訊沒有錯啦北上11班南下9班這個比起20年前它的確增加了我記得我剛當立委的時候應該好像只有3班5班左右而已啦"},{"start":151.445,"end":176.038,"text":"所以我們過去這些年來努力爭取足批增加但我們都很清楚它的長線要解決海線班次過少因為你看譬如說我的資料上面海線一天11班三線有33班北上所以就三倍啦這個極為不合理啦極為不合理所以那我們有知道原因是因為海線的雙軌"},{"start":178.08,"end":193.119,"text":"過去遲遲都沒有做沒有決定但現在經過我過去這些人的努力我們現在定案而且已經進入了這個時程裡面了所以就等待早日可以動工完工的那一天但我還是覺得"},{"start":194.77,"end":219.217,"text":"海線的鐵路一定要去實場的要去動態的檢討就是能夠播出時段是因為它太多單軌所以我們要灰車要燒單車所以才會搬赤子只有那麼少那所以我希望鐵道局能夠認真的去檢討請台鐵公司認真一起檢討到底我們可不可以再擠出那個量出來"},{"start":220.667,"end":248.643,"text":"想辦法再擠出這個量第二個在時間點的選擇上面我們也都知道或許他可能在特定的時間譬如說早上上下早上或者傍晚上下班可能對你們有這個大數據可以去做一些規劃跟了解把它優化這個就是我做這個臨時提案我要的這個強調因為這個客數其實每一年都存在我每一年都要解釋說"},{"start":250.796,"end":277.582,"text":"海線要解決根本問題就是要雙軌這個也應該早就應該要做了所以部長我希望在這個任內我們分長線我們把雙軌可以讓它如期的完成短線我希望我們鐵路單位能夠不定期的動態的去檢討只要能夠加入班次或者整個行程表可以優化我們都努力來做這個這個就是那個報告的重點 可以嗎"},{"start":278.642,"end":302.695,"text":"我所知道委員也不斷在推動這件事情那台鐵很像最近有開過兩次會議針對這件事情已經在做檢討我們就希望說讓他最優化因為我們目前鐵軌就是只有單軌第一要最優化符合民眾真正需求的時間點第二就是要最大化提供的量能要最大化這個部分目前已經開過兩次的會議那我們還在檢討"},{"start":303.575,"end":328.456,"text":"那所以就是那個報告就是以最大化和最優化的角度回復給本席怎麼樣可以再把這兩個目標把它做好好不好第二個部分啊這個台鐵公司啊這個剛剛徐副委員問到喔這個每一年統計啊公司化之後看起來那個數字也沒有減少啦行車的事故啊等等那我看過站不停啊"},{"start":329.232,"end":346.822,"text":"光前面這幾個月就有七次過站不停對不對包括我們清水站也一次過站不停這個我就不時間有限啦過站不停這個我上次在高鐵的時候我就已經念過一次了這個很離譜那你們高鐵台鐵過站不停有沒有賠償旅客"},{"start":352.574,"end":363.745,"text":"為什麼可以過站不停沒有賠償旅客就在我們的旅客運輸的相關規定裡面是如果造成旅客延誤30分鐘以上我們會這個45分鐘會給旅客做一個賠償"},{"start":368.129,"end":390.039,"text":"那所以過站不停是算多久 算延誤多久因為它不停所以不算延誤過站不停也有處理的時間啦 就看你是超過的是車廂數是多少因為我們要照SOP來做一個對對對 那我的意思是這樣啦 這個就是我要求齁那個高鐵公司過站不停 雖然那個補償我也不滿意啦"},{"start":392.284,"end":419.816,"text":"但是至少人家還知道說要立刻票價怎麼算然後立刻再送上小禮物表達他們的誠意雖然我是覺得這個應該照理說過站不停應該退錢給人家才對那我意思是說台鐵如果你們有SOP你們應該要處理這個SOP就是你們要去檢討這個SOP過站不停你把它想像一個人要去上課要去上班"},{"start":421.138,"end":442.817,"text":"火車不是很多喔 它不是像坐捷運說這一站不停不然我五分鐘或十分鐘後又來一班嘛過站不停可能我下一班要等一個小時啊要等三十分鐘以上啊啊你給我過站不停我就來不及了嘛我可能要改搭計程車我才敢上班嘛啊這個可以因為這樣就完全台鐵當成沒有當那一回事"},{"start":444.078,"end":468.09,"text":"過去就過去啦報告委員您所提的這個我認為非常合理啦所以我要求台鐵現在立刻針對這個SOP馬上做檢討對應該要檢討啦如果過站不停對旅客的這個賠償或者是補償這個應該是要做的對他不是要你他重點不是賠償跟補償啦但是那個是對台鐵公司你們內部的要求啦你們如果事故再不下降我就要做臨時提案以後出現這種都賠十倍"},{"start":470.506,"end":485.422,"text":"我就來做臨時提案要求台鐵要賠十倍就是你們要有機制來檢討就是那個SOP到底出了什麼問題你看高鐵只出現過一次高鐵已經上上下下雞飛狗跳了台鐵好像"},{"start":486.443,"end":506.01,"text":"不搞個大概三五百次好像大家也覺得還好啦幾次而已所以這個同樣在交通部下面我們不應該對兩個我們當然知道不能完全等同啦但是不可以面對事情的態度是這個樣子那就大家會不施掌勁啦反正也不會有事"},{"start":506.71,"end":535.727,"text":"啊就過就過啊 不是要怎麼樣啊就沒停就沒停啊 不是要怎麼樣這種態度我覺得很重要啊這個態度對了我們就可以開始內部的那個管理啊才會那個螺絲才會鬆的緊一點啊這樣好不好好那因為時間的關係最後我只講一個就是台中機場的那個混亂的問題是我早上已經講過了那那個董事長可不可以這個檢討可以什麼時候有一個有一個答案"},{"start":540.736,"end":564.617,"text":"有關因為他分兩個部分如果是屬於機場的部分我們現在主任在開會我們會盡速來處理包含航班太密集的等等我們看看怎麼樣來在時間帶上面再做調整那可是涉及這個檢疫單位或者是關稅的部分我們可能需要一點時間因為畢竟他也是在執行國家的一個防疫的政策有幾個原則一定要把握第一個"},{"start":566.799,"end":582.372,"text":"這個班次不能因為我們內部機場航廈整個運作跟管理的問題導致這個航班給我取消掉這個航班不能減少這第一個不能減少第二個你要設想未來我們還在增加"},{"start":583.544,"end":607.034,"text":"對嘛 你知道嘛 我動不 只要這個民航局我只有一個問題嘛就是台中機場的事情所以未來還是會增加那還是會增加我們要事先去預防它分散的問題不要集中那這是民航局可以做的那航廈或者其他的空間的規劃動線的設施這個都民航局要去解決啦"},{"start":607.734,"end":631.29,"text":"就是要增採X光設備能不能增買那個空間擺得下擺不下那長期要怎麼來做這個都要趕快現在未雨綢繆先來做那至於要涉及其他單位的部分我也要特別拜託部長趕快把各單位找來怎麼請各單位來協助大家一起把這個問題解決啦這樣好不好 就是說讓他會"},{"start":633.332,"end":649.094,"text":"會擁擠這很正常 桃園也會擁擠嘛你到日本的機場那更可能要排隊有時候排更久但是那個動線清楚然後不要產生那種混亂到不可那種大家會覺得有抱怨的情形那我講過了台中就算"},{"start":650.115,"end":663.409,"text":"現在有一點擁擠對中部人而言還是比去台北做來得更省時所以這個要麻煩部長盡量要把它做到比較規矩一點我們跨部會的溝通也同時會來提供"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":836,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時57分）謝謝主席，麻煩請交通部陳部長、鐵道局楊局長、臺鐵公司伍代理董事長。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長、鐵道局楊局長、臺鐵伍代理董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長午安。其實我今天要問的問題，剛剛在臨時提案時已經先講過了，因為主席英明，先處理臨時提案，所以我的想法其實我剛剛已經先講了一個簡要版，現在我想要就細節的部分來就教部長跟鐵道局，今年6月，海線的鐵路是不是要改點？"],["陳部長世凱：對，6月改點。"],["蔡委員其昌：6月二十幾號？23號，是嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：6月26號。"],["蔡委員其昌：現在臺鐵在改點前，西部，也就是海線北上跟南下一天各有幾個班次？"],["陳部長世凱：海線北上南下，麻煩提供一下。"],["馮總經理輝昇：平日是89班，假日是91班。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，如果以經過我們臺中的班次，北上是不是11班、南下是不是9班？你應該知道我要問這個，還沒有趕快把資料準備好，我剛剛在臨時提案的時候已經講過等一下我會再問這個。"],["馮總經理輝昇：成追線是沒錯，就是從大甲到臺中。"],["蔡委員其昌：我的意思很簡單啦，這個資訊我剛剛已經提了，我非常重視這個題目。6月23號之後會不會減少？"],["馮總經理輝昇：不會，不會減少。"],["蔡委員其昌：時間有沒有不一樣？"],["馮總經理輝昇：以時間來說，目前在海線的部分也沒有調整。"],["蔡委員其昌：也沒有調整，唯一調整的就是因為自強號要修理，所以改成以900型區間快來替駛，也就是換車型，但班次、時間都沒有調整，我這樣理解，對嗎？"],["馮總經理輝昇：對，沒有錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，過去你在海線當議員，過去我們也一起努力讓海線的班次增加，如果我的資訊沒有錯，現在北上11班、南下9班，這個比起20年前的確增加了，我記得我剛當立委的時候好像只有3班、5班左右而已啦！"],["陳部長世凱：對，委員很努力在爭取。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以過去這些年來我們努力爭取，逐批增加，但我們都很清楚它的長線是要解決海線班次過少，譬如我的資料上面顯示，海線一天11班，山線有33班，這是北上的部分，所以就是三倍啦，這個極為不合理啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：我們也都知道原因，是因為海線的雙軌過去遲遲都沒有做、沒有決定，經過我過去這些年的努力，我們現在定案，而且已經進入了這個時程裡面了，所以就等待早日可以動工、完工的那一天。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：但我還是覺得海線的鐵路一定要時常去做動態的檢討，才能夠撥出時段，因為它太多單軌，所以我們的火車要互相等待，所以班次才會只有那麼少，我希望鐵道局能夠請臺鐵公司一起認真的檢討，到底我們可不可以再擠出那個量出來，想辦法再擠出那個量。第二個，在時間點的選擇上面，我們也都知道，或許可能在特定的時間，譬如說早上或者傍晚的上下班時間……"],["陳部長世凱：尖峰時間。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，你們有大數據可以去做一些規劃跟了解，把它優化啦，這就是我提出這個臨時提案的原因，因為客訴每一年都存在，我每一年都要解釋海線的根本問題長線如果要解決就是要雙軌……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個也早就應該要做了，所以部長，我希望在任內分二個部分，長線部分是讓雙軌可以如期的完成，短線部分則是鐵路單位能夠不定期的動態檢討，只要能夠加入班次或者整個行程表可以優化，我們都努力來做，這就是那個報告的重點，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我知道委員也不斷在推動這件事情，臺鐵最近有開過兩次會議，針對這件事情已經在做檢討，我們希望能讓它最優化，因為我們目前的鐵軌就是只有單軌，所以第一要最優化，符合民眾真正需求的時間點，第二是要最大化，提供的量能要最大化，這個部分目前已經開過兩次的會議，我們還在檢討。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK，所以那個報告就是以最大化和最優化的角度回復給本席，怎麼樣可以把這兩個目標做好，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：第二個部分是有關行車的事故，剛剛徐富癸委員也問到這個部分，以每一年的統計資料來看，在公司化之後那個數字看起來也沒有減少啦，以過站不停來說，光前面這幾個月就有7次過站不停，對不對？包括我們清水站也有一次。針對過站不停的問題，因為時間有限，過站不停這個問題我上次在高鐵的時候就已經念過一次，這個很離譜，你們臺鐵過站不停有沒有賠償旅客？"],["馮總經理輝昇：沒有，我們的賠償主要是延誤時間……"],["蔡委員其昌：為什麼可以過站不停而沒有賠償旅客？"],["馮總經理輝昇：在我們的旅客運輸相關規定裡面，如果有造成旅客延誤45分鐘以上，我們會給旅客做一個賠償。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以過站不停是算延誤多久？"],["馮總經理輝昇：我們過站不停……"],["蔡委員其昌：因為不停，所以不算延誤？"],["馮總經理輝昇：過站不停也有處理的時間啦，就看你超過的車廂數是多少，因為我們要照SOP來做一個處理。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我的意思是這樣啦，之前我要求高鐵公司過站不停要補償，雖然那個補償我也不滿意啦，但是至少人家還知道要立刻在票價上怎麼折算，然後立刻再送上小禮物來表達他們的誠意，雖然我是覺得照理說過站不停就應該退錢給人家才對。我的意思是說，臺鐵如果有SOP，你們應該要處理這個SOP，就是你們要去檢討這個SOP。對於過站不停，你想像有一個人要去上課、上班，火車班次不是很多喔，不是像捷運這樣，這一站不停，可能5分鐘或10分鐘後又來一班，火車這班過站不停，可能下一班要等1個小時、要等30分鐘以上，你給我過站不停，我就來不及了嘛，可能要改搭計程車才能趕上班嘛，臺鐵可以完全沒有當一回事，過去就過去了？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您所提的這個我認為非常合理，所以我要求臺鐵現在立刻針對這個SOP馬上做檢討。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，應該要檢討啦。"],["陳部長世凱：如果過站不停，對旅客的賠償或者是補償是應該要做的。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，重點不是賠償跟補償……"],["陳部長世凱：是，不要發生。"],["蔡委員其昌：但那個是對臺鐵公司你們內部的要求啦，你們的事故再不下降，我就要提出臨時提案，以後出現這種事故都賠10倍，我就來提出臨時提案要求臺鐵要賠10倍，就是你們要有機制來檢討那個SOP到底出了什麼問題。高鐵只出現過一次，高鐵已經上上下下雞飛狗跳了，臺鐵好像不搞個三、五百次，大家好像也覺得還好啦、幾次而已。同樣在交通部下面，我們當然知道不能完全等同啦，但是面對事情的態度不可以是這樣，這樣大家就會不思長進啦，認為反正也不會有事，過去就過去了，不然要怎樣，沒停就沒停了，不然要怎樣，我覺得態度很重要，這個態度對了，我們內部管理的螺絲才會栓得緊一點啦，這樣好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為時間的關係，最後我只講一個就是臺中機場混亂的問題，我早上已經講過了，何局長，可不可以去檢討？這個檢討什麼時候能有一個答案？"],["何局長淑萍：這個分兩個部分，如果是屬於機場的部分，我們主任現在在開會，我們會儘速來處理，包含航班太密集等等，我們看看怎麼樣在時間帶上面再做調整；可是涉及檢疫單位或者是關稅的部分，我們可能需要一點時間，因為畢竟它也是在執行國家的防疫政策。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，有幾個原則一定要把握，第一個，班次不能因為我們內部機場航廈整個運作跟管理的問題導致航班取消掉、航點取消掉……"],["陳部長世凱：航班不能減少。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，這是第一個，航班不能減少。第二個，你要設想未來我們還要再增加，你知道嘛，對於民航局，我只有一個問題就是臺中機場的事情，所以未來還是會增加，既然還會增加，我們就要事先去預防它分散的問題，不要集中，這是民航局可以做的。至於航廈或者其他的空間規劃、動線設施，這個民航局也要去解決啦，就是要增採X光設備能不能增買、那個空間擺得下擺不下、長期要怎麼來做，這個都要趕快，現在未雨綢繆先來做。至於涉及其他單位的部分，我也要特別拜託部長，趕快把各單位找來，看看怎麼請各單位來協助，大家一起把這個問題解決啦，這樣好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：會擁擠這很正常，桃園也會擁擠嘛，你到日本的機場有時候可能排隊要排更久，但是動線要清楚，然後不要產生混亂到大家會有抱怨的情形。我講過了，臺中就算現在有一點擁擠，對中部人而言，還是比去臺北搭乘來得更省時啦，所以這個要麻煩部長，儘量要把它做到比較規矩一點。"],["陳部長世凱：我們跨部會的溝通也會同時來啟動。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌副院長。","現在請魯明哲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160816","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160816","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b94236957a7f010702b9edf385a4fd0f0fffa4998ab4b80bc74e67d3c1d51a46f3598f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:47:03 - 11:57:24","影片長度":"00:10:21","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:47:03+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:57:24+08:00","duration":621,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.30471875,"end":9.075968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.01721875,"end":7.202843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.637218750000002,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.88596875,"end":11.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.902843750000002,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.923468750000001,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.037218750000001,"end":15.353468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.28409375,"end":27.824093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.97596875,"end":28.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.21221875,"end":38.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.80971875,"end":46.791593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.02784375,"end":52.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.93409375,"end":53.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.165968750000005,"end":57.338468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.57471875,"end":60.03846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.578468750000006,"end":64.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.27409375,"end":101.75346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.66471875,"end":124.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.35159375,"end":108.70596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.43534375,"end":112.48596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.51971875000001,"end":112.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.41659375,"end":125.32784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.77096875000001,"end":126.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.13784375,"end":131.40284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.72784375,"end":143.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.85659375,"end":178.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.39534375000002,"end":182.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.55096875,"end":183.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.91784375,"end":187.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.96784375000001,"end":189.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.16159375,"end":190.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.83659375000002,"end":193.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.35096875000002,"end":199.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.30784375000002,"end":199.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.16846875000002,"end":201.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.74221875,"end":200.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.43409375000002,"end":207.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.47534375,"end":220.26659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.22846875000002,"end":226.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.77596875,"end":231.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.85971875,"end":232.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.92721875,"end":232.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.39971875,"end":244.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.39346875,"end":245.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.96721875000003,"end":287.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.28721875000002,"end":250.62471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.39596875,"end":257.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.91846875000005,"end":302.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.56596875,"end":302.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":303.03846875,"end":316.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.39596875,"end":310.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.56034375,"end":311.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.03221875,"end":359.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.92409375,"end":369.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.98159375,"end":393.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.55909375000005,"end":374.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.83034375,"end":393.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":393.60659375,"end":398.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.78721875,"end":402.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.61784375,"end":404.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.03534375000004,"end":404.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.37284375,"end":405.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.87471875,"end":410.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":410.83596875,"end":411.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.02159375,"end":417.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":416.30346875000004,"end":423.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.06596875,"end":424.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.77471875000003,"end":447.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":447.33659375,"end":448.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":448.34909375,"end":456.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.66846875000005,"end":465.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.17346875000004,"end":517.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.19471875,"end":526.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.8347187500001,"end":528.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":529.06221875,"end":536.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":537.60096875,"end":538.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":538.2422187500001,"end":540.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.32659375,"end":538.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.57534375,"end":543.0009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.91221875,"end":562.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":562.66034375,"end":562.7109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.6772187500001,"end":562.6940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.7109687500001,"end":562.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":562.76159375,"end":563.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":563.90909375,"end":565.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":566.3728437500001,"end":584.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.4597187500001,"end":577.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.3328437499999,"end":580.6997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.42909375,"end":584.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":584.68221875,"end":586.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":586.8928437500001,"end":589.2553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":590.0990937500001,"end":593.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":593.96346875,"end":595.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":595.11096875,"end":598.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":595.38096875,"end":595.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":598.09784375,"end":599.8190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":599.75159375,"end":604.8984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":604.98284375,"end":619.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.42159375,"end":605.4722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.63534375,"end":615.1922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.9722187500001,"end":619.9678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":619.9678437499999,"end":620.72721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.642,"end":6.565,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請陳部長台鐵五代理董事長 高鐵鄭董事長鄭董事長 高鐵鄭董事長"},{"start":29.736,"end":52.503,"text":"兩位同仁早部長我想今天討論航空跟鐵路的安全但是我先就一個觀光的問題先請教陸委會公布去年到現在有82個國人負重失聯我們有找過相關的情資嗎?報告委員陸委會的資料也都有給我們所以這82位我們也都了解"},{"start":54.212,"end":82.934,"text":"那我因為目前我們登錄的一個系統裡面附中登錄的比例不到5%那我們交通部怎麼樣掌握這樣一個登錄的一個狀況報告委員我們還是呼籲國人如果要去中國旅遊或者是經商最好都先來登錄這個陸委會的這個網站上面的登錄原因是這樣子如果有先登錄出了事政府才會知道才知道說該怎麼協助包含協助家屬或協助當事人"},{"start":83.595,"end":101.545,"text":"那這個部分目前陸委會也有召集旅遊相關的業者拜託旅遊相關的業者不管是針對團客或者是自由行的旅客都能夠去協助來做宣導讓民眾願意來登錄因為這個登錄的這個機制最近開始在宣導我們希望一段時間就可以看出成效"},{"start":102.828,"end":130.551,"text":"部長其實我有很多朋友他們跟我提到說要去大陸旅遊我都覺得說要注意啦有時候被莫須有的罪名跟你扣住你就回不來了啦當然我站在我們這個交通部的立場為了怎麼樣針對國人跟旅行團一個強制的一個登陸的一個做政策我相信應該要搭配陸委會我們應該有一些的因應對策啦是沒錯柏林這個贊成嗎這個我們跟陸委會都會密切來配合這關係到國人的旅遊安全嗎"},{"start":130.811,"end":142.868,"text":"是 那我們也是希望我們的相關的一些外交管道應該趕快去透過海基會協調趕快讓這個受困的國人能夠趕快回台灣啦是所以我們也要確保他們的人身安全是"},{"start":143.885,"end":167.331,"text":"那部長還有董事長我想我們最近有一個新的這個交通的議題就是西班牙跟葡萄牙在4月28號中午過後陷入大規模的一個停電那原因就是因為西班牙因為極端氣候造成一個高壓陷入的異常震動造成這個交通大亂許多的乘客受困在這個大眾運輸的工具裡面"},{"start":169.091,"end":188.428,"text":"那我想針對台鐵跟高鐵在我們是不是面臨這樣一個狀況之後有沒有什麼一個備援的一個機制甚至因應的作為能夠提出一個說明是 這個部分我們是不是請台鐵好不好吳董事長跟委員報告齁剛提到的這個葡萄牙跟西班牙大端電的部分我想我們台鐵齁"},{"start":190.919,"end":206.689,"text":"也會所謂的我們的不斷電系統那這個我們有備用的發電機大概目前可以有四個小時的時間可以來用那當然如果說還繼續在停電的時候有需要我們剛剛講再加油再注油一樣可以再繼續再持續"},{"start":207.689,"end":220.038,"text":"這個我想沒有問題但在路線上我們大概也有幾個逃生的一個地方我們現在是沿線都把它標示出來哪個地方有逃生的部分可以路線都要怎麼連通這個部分都有做"},{"start":221.357,"end":243.46,"text":"對啊那這個有沒有需要列入我們比如說一個擴大一個演習的一個項目因為有可能我們高層知道但是我們基層的員工同仁不清楚啊我們現在大概每一年大概都會辦理所謂的體驗的演習體驗演習我想我們未來把這個納入是我們的情境來做一下演習讓整個基層同仁了解這個時候發生的時候應該怎麼辦"},{"start":245.735,"end":256.44,"text":"這個我想我們也要把它列為一個很重要的一個應變的一個機制因為這個隨著現在這個極端氣候隨時那種發現什麼狀況我們都不知道所以我們應該隨時要做好營運準備好那我想針對這個台鐵落軌的事件頻傳包含我們在屏東也有長輩在鳳山車站"},{"start":267.045,"end":286.751,"text":"也破壞了 也骨折了所以我想這個安全性也必須真的要重新來檢視那我知道台鐵目前在高雄車站有準備偵測的一個纜繩式的一個月台示範就我們現在應該是在圖面的一個左手邊這個規劃嘛是保齡院你看這個有沒有美觀"},{"start":288.204,"end":302.323,"text":"報告委員美觀的問題當然他沒有辦法做到像高鐵那麼美觀因為他的車型太多他的這個門開的地方也都不一樣那高鐵是同一個車型開門的地方是固定的所以做法一定是不一樣的"},{"start":303.086,"end":328.536,"text":"但是因為我們現在也有很多鄉親在質疑我們花了這個將近一億五千萬規劃的一個部分那到底可以做多少的月台門那這個所謂的效益怎麼去做評估報告委員第一座它一定會比較貴因為我們現在是試辦所以很多的我們必須測試的這些機具都有裝設上去但是而且它沒有量產所以價格會比較高"},{"start":329.296,"end":346.303,"text":"但是如果你要複製到其他地方去做的時候我們有一些測試的機具就測試完之後確定要就留下來不需要的我們就會把它取消掉所以我們價格會降低而且我們的機房有一個機房不是只有給一個月台的一側目前是"},{"start":346.923,"end":369.156,"text":"一個機房只給一側嘛那未來可能一個機房是可以給好幾個月台那個整體的成本都會下降那這一組因為是在測試的過程所以價格會比較高那未來我們當然價格會降低就會思考說有沒有要裝設更多的車站那目前有在評估啦比較擁擠的月台或者是有安全疑慮的月台我們會優先來考量"},{"start":370.751,"end":392.645,"text":"我想部長也常常坐火車到我們相關的一些縣市去看我提供右手邊,這是我們德國車站我想我們在很多,包含屏東也有很多地方我們一個平面車站的美觀景觀是很漂亮你這樣做這個行,我們今天真的有點破壞這個美感這個可能要再評估一下"},{"start":393.706,"end":403.5,"text":"那另外請教一下我們高鐵政董事長,上次這個高鐵過賺不停的部分,我剛剛有看了一下新聞,是不是已經有做了一個懲處的一個部分?是的,我們有懲處了怎麼懲處?"},{"start":405.919,"end":420.891,"text":"我們基本上現在目前應該是駕駛會激大過然後相關的主管也會有一些連帶的責任這樣那除了行政處分之外那我們針對這樣的一個整個運作機制的檢討有沒有什麼樣的一個提出什麼樣的一個說明"},{"start":424.193,"end":443.3,"text":"是的 對駕駛除了這個剛才講的這個我們還會給他ground下來三個月那其中兩個月就專對這個SOP這個技術上的這個專業再做一個完整的訓練然後通過了以後再加上一個月我們會給他做這個行醫中心這邊來做這種心理測驗跟檢討這樣那另外"},{"start":448.442,"end":455.756,"text":"現在高鐵的運量實在是非常的大所以我想每一個站都是一樣我們都要用最嚴謹的一個安全的態度來處理"},{"start":456.761,"end":485.279,"text":"是的 那另外跟委員報告就是說為了預防這樣一個人為的疏失再次發生我們也做了兩個處置 就是說在行控中心跟這個駕駛的這個對話裡面我們會加一句就是說行控中心告訴這個駕駛雖然是在板橋這邊是速度設限是70但是你還是要依這個表定的時間來停車加是這一句話"},{"start":486.5,"end":515.62,"text":"那另外就是說我們在整個規範裡面對於像行控中心我們會要求說第一個如果列車長發現這個駕駛又是有應該要停然後停下來又要跨車馬上又要用PEI然後要求他趕快停車同時也告訴我們行控中心說這個應該要告訴駕駛那行控中心接觸了以後要求他就取消他的設定"},{"start":516.88,"end":542.467,"text":"那大概說這樣的一個防範我們可以把這樣的一個人為的疏忽那把它消滅掉確保不要再發生那我再請教另外一個問題我們現在所有的高鐵回到站裡之後是不是要做一個所謂的UT檢測的這個部分UT會UT檢測的部分UT檢測就是那個對 你說的炭傷"},{"start":544.82,"end":559.476,"text":"就是説軌道我們是定期的就是説這個軌道平常我們有檢測它們但是那個U2的碳傷就是在這個結構上看它裡面有沒有產生一些鋼軌有沒有所產生的變化是的 有做這樣的一個碳傷的檢測這個有落實嗎有的 這個都是確實在做"},{"start":566.803,"end":580.726,"text":"這個我請董事長回去要好好了解一下因為我們這邊有接到關於這個部分確實有一些狀況存在那我想請董事長回去了解一下好不好那我會找時間再跟董事長討論一下畢竟這個攸關到每天這麼多通行組的一個安全不能夠因為有這個設了這個東西UT檢測但是"},{"start":590.134,"end":614.988,"text":"有偽造的一個資料的一個呈現這是大問題啦那這不允許的是喔所以這部分當總經理了解一下我會再找你一下好謝謝徐委員指導好那最後我想針對這個台鐵事故將近每年一千件喔柏林是這也一樣啦現在台鐵通行的人數也非常的多喔怎麼樣降低這個事故我想這未來也是需要台鐵總公司大家一起努力啦是是"},{"start":615.148,"end":619.119,"text":"那是不是可以在一個月之內提出一個書面報告降低事故的這個報告好 這個沒有問題好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":782,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時47分）謝謝主席，有請陳部長、臺鐵伍代理董事長、高鐵鄭董事長。"],["主席：交通部陳部長、伍董事長、高鐵鄭董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長早、兩位董事長早。部長，今天討論航空跟鐵路的安全，但是我先就一個觀光的問題請教，陸委會公布去年到現在有82個國人赴中失聯，你們有掌握相關的情資嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，陸委會的這個資料也都有給我們，所以這82位我們也都了解。"],["徐委員富癸：目前我們的系統裡面赴中登錄的比率不到5%，交通部怎麼樣掌握這樣的登錄狀況？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們還是呼籲國人，如果要去中國旅遊或者是經商，最好都先來陸委會的這個網站上面登錄，原因是這樣子，如果有先登錄，出了事政府才會知道、才知道該怎麼協助，包含協助家屬或協助當事人。這個部分目前陸委會也有召集旅遊相關業者，拜託旅遊相關業者不管是針對團客或者是自由行的旅客都能夠協助宣導，讓民眾願意來登錄，因為這個登錄機制最近開始在宣導，我們希望一段時間就可以看出成效。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，其實我有很多朋友都跟我提到他們要去大陸旅遊，我都跟他們說要多注意，有時候會被莫須有的罪名將你扣住，你就回不來了啦。當然，站在交通部的立場，未來怎麼樣針對國人跟旅行團制定一個強制登錄的政策，我相信應該要搭配陸委會，你們應該要有一些因應對策啦。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，這個你贊成嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：有，這個部分我們都會跟陸委會密切來配合，因為這關係到國人的旅遊安全，我們非常重視。"],["徐委員富癸：我們也是希望我們相關的一些外交管道，應該趕快透過海基會去協調，讓受困的國人能夠趕快回臺灣啦，畢竟我們還是要確保他們的人身安全。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員富癸：部長、董事長，最近有一個新的交通議題，就是西班牙、葡萄牙在4月28號中午過後陷入大規模的停電，原因就是出在西班牙因為極端氣候造成一個高壓線路的異常震動，造成交通大亂，許多乘客受困在大眾運輸的工具裡面。針對臺鐵及高鐵，我們如果面臨這樣一個狀況，你們有沒有什麼備援的機制，甚至因應的作為？能不能提出一個說明？"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個部分我們是不是請臺鐵伍董事長說明，好不好？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：跟委員報告，剛剛提到葡萄牙跟西班牙大斷電的部分，我想我們臺鐵有一個所謂的不斷電系統，我們也有備用的發電機，目前大概有4個小時的時間可以來用，當然，如果還繼續在停電的時候，有需要的時候，我們剛剛也有講到可以再加油、再注油，一樣可以再持續，這個我想沒有問題。在路線上，我們大概也有幾個逃生的地方，我們現在是沿線都把它標示出來，每個地方逃生的部分，其路線對外怎麼連通，這個部分都有做。"],["徐委員富癸：對啊，那這個有沒有需要列入我們，比如說，一個擴大演習的項目？因為有可能高層知道，但是基層的員工同仁並不清楚啊。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：是，我們現在每一年大概都會辦理所謂的鐵安演習，有關鐵安演習部分，我想我們未來可以把這個納入我們設定的情境來做一下演習，讓整個基層同仁了解，當它發生的時候應該怎麼辦。"],["徐委員富癸：我想你們也要把它列為一個很重要的應變機制，因為隨著現在極端氣候的情況，隨時都有可能發生，甚至會出現什麼狀況我們都不知道啦，所以我們應該隨時要做好因應準備。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：是。"],["徐委員富癸：針對臺鐵落軌事件頻傳，包含在屏東也有我們的長輩在鳳山車站發生跌落事件，造成骨折，所以我想安全性的部分也必須真的要重新來檢視。我知道臺鐵目前在高雄車站有準備增設一個纜繩式的月臺，目前正在試辦，就是現在畫面上左手邊的這個規劃。部長，你覺得這個看起來算有美觀嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，美觀的問題，當然它沒有辦法做到像高鐵那麼美觀，因為它的車型太多，它的門開啟的地方也都不一樣，高鐵則是同一個車型，開門的地方是固定的，所以作法一定是不一樣的。"],["徐委員富癸：但是現在也有很多鄉親在質疑啦，我們花了將近1億5,000萬去規劃的部分，到底可以做多少的月臺門？這個所謂的效益怎麼去做評估？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，第一座一定會比較貴，因為我們現在是試辦，所以有很多項目是我們必須去測試的，這些機具都有裝設上去，而且它沒有量產，所以價格會比較高，但是如果你要複製到其他地方去做的時候，我們有一些測試的機具，就是測試完之後確定要就會留下來，不需要的，我們就會把它取消掉，所以我們的價格會降低，而且我們有一個機房，不是只有給一個月臺的一側，目前是一個機房只給一側，未來可能一個機房是可以給好幾個月臺，整體的成本都會下降。這一組因為是在測試的過程，所以價格會比較高，未來我們的價格當然會降低，就會去思考有沒有要裝設在更多的車站，目前有在評估，比較擁擠的月臺，或者是有安全疑慮的月臺，我們會優先來考量。"],["徐委員富癸：我想部長也常常坐火車到我們相關的一些縣市去看，我提供右手邊的這個，也就是德國車站的設計，我想我們在很多地方，包含屏東在內，很多地方，我們平面車站的美觀、景觀是很漂亮的，但你設計成這種型態，說真的，真的有點破壞美感，所以這個可能要再評估一下啦。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，請教一下高鐵鄭董事長，上次高鐵出現過站不停的部分，我剛剛有看了一下新聞，是不是已經有做了一個懲處的處理？"],["鄭董事長光遠：是的，我們有懲處了。"],["徐委員富癸：怎麼懲處？"],["鄭董事長光遠：基本上，目前應該是駕駛會記大過，然後相關的主管也會有一些連帶的責任，另外……"],["徐委員富癸：除了行政處分之外，針對這樣一個，涉及到整個運作機制的檢討，有沒有提出一個什麼樣的說明？"],["鄭董事長光遠：是的，對於駕駛除了剛才所講的處分，我們還會給他ground下來3個月，其中2個月就是針對這個SOP、技術上的專業，再做一個完整的訓練，然後通過了以後，再加上1個月，我們會由航醫中心這邊來給他做心理測驗跟檢討。另外……"],["徐委員富癸：現在高鐵的運量實在是非常的大，所以我想每一個站都是一樣，我們都要用最嚴謹的安全態度來處理啦。"],["鄭董事長光遠：是的。另外，跟委員報告，為了預防這樣的人為疏失再次發生，我們也做了兩個處置，就是說，在行控中心跟駕駛的對話裡面，我們會加一句，就是說，行控中心會告訴駕駛，你雖然在板橋這邊的速度設限是70，但是你還是要依表定的時間來停車，加註這一句話。另外，我們在整個規範裡面，對於行控中心我們會要求它，第一個，如果列車長發現這個駕駛又是應該要停，然後停下來又發車，馬上要用PEI要求他趕快停車，同時也告訴我們的行控中心說這個應該要告訴駕駛，行控中心接觸了以後要要求他，並取消他的設定，要停下來，大概透過這樣的防範，我們可以把這樣一個人為的疏忽給消弭掉，確保不要再發生。"],["徐委員富癸：董事長，我再請教你另外一個問題，現在所有的高鐵回到站裡之後，是不是要做一個所謂UT檢測的部分？"],["鄭董事長光遠：UT檢測的部分，對於軌道我們會進行定期的，就是說，針對軌道我們平常有做檢測，但是那個UT就是探傷，就是在結構上看它的裡面有沒有產生一些、鋼軌有沒有產生什麼變化，是的，有做這樣一個探傷的檢測。"],["徐委員富癸：這個有落實嗎？"],["鄭董事長光遠：有的，這個都確實在做。"],["徐委員富癸：這個部分我請董事長回去要好好了解一下，因為我們這邊有接到關於這個部分確實有一些狀況存在，所以我想請董事長回去了解一下，好不好？"],["鄭董事長光遠：好。"],["徐委員富癸：我會找時間再跟董事長討論一下。"],["鄭董事長光遠：好的，謝謝委員指導。"],["徐委員富癸：畢竟這個攸關到每天這麼多通勤族的安全，不能夠因為設了這個東西──UT檢測，但是有偽造資料的呈現，這是大問題啦。"],["鄭董事長光遠：這是不允許的。"],["徐委員富癸：所以這個部分請董事長回去了解一下，我會再找你討論。"],["鄭董事長光遠：好，謝謝徐委員指導。"],["徐委員富癸：最後，我想針對臺鐵事故每年將近一千件請教一下部長，因為同樣的，現在臺鐵通勤的人數也非常多，怎麼樣降低事故的發生，我想未來也是需要臺鐵總公司這邊大家一起來努力啦。"],["陳部長世凱：是、是。"],["徐委員富癸：是不是可以在一個月之內提出一個書面報告？降低事故的這個報告。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個沒有問題。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。","現在請蔡其昌副院長質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160815","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160815","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423691c7ad551ed32d331693dd611367b4ddd98ab4b80bc74e67d450105506708a8dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:32:59 - 12:39:12","影片長度":"00:06:13","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查「保險法」15案：\n一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案。【後3案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第一百二十三條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:32:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:39:12+08:00","duration":373,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":2.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.1359687500000004,"end":10.324718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.797218750000003,"end":12.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.78846875,"end":18.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.082843750000002,"end":24.617843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.06159375,"end":20.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.17971875,"end":20.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.90471875,"end":29.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.579093750000002,"end":32.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.447843750000004,"end":60.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.14659375,"end":43.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.96659375,"end":65.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.92784375000001,"end":76.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.62659375,"end":98.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.10409375,"end":112.24971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.20346875000001,"end":115.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.52346875,"end":116.75534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.65846875000001,"end":115.87784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.78909375,"end":122.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.49284375,"end":131.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.77409375000002,"end":154.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.82284375,"end":143.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.21096875,"end":146.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.75784375,"end":171.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.97034375,"end":184.84596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.10846875000001,"end":179.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.51346875000002,"end":179.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.73659375000003,"end":182.77034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.77034375000002,"end":183.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.69846875000002,"end":183.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.23409375,"end":188.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.99721875,"end":189.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.01409375,"end":194.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.86971875,"end":196.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.47284375,"end":196.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.55721875,"end":203.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.59096875,"end":196.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.11721875,"end":215.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.34846875000002,"end":212.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.44034375,"end":216.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.50346875000002,"end":216.87471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.87471875000003,"end":228.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.60284375,"end":249.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.16909375,"end":259.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.39971875000003,"end":264.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.04034375000003,"end":267.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.52909375,"end":268.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.74846875000003,"end":269.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.78221875,"end":269.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.22096875,"end":269.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.38971875000004,"end":269.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.71034375,"end":279.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.48096875000005,"end":279.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.86909375,"end":280.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.03346875,"end":294.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.31596875,"end":284.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.64784375,"end":293.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.09471875,"end":311.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.38159375000004,"end":295.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.47596875,"end":312.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.39971875000003,"end":333.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.81034375,"end":342.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.21846875,"end":342.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.08721875000003,"end":342.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.12096875000003,"end":342.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.40784375000004,"end":342.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.57659375000003,"end":342.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.61034375,"end":345.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.76221875000005,"end":346.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.40721875,"end":348.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.31409375000004,"end":349.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.88784375,"end":351.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.05221875,"end":358.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.42221875,"end":368.68221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.39,"end":27.984,"text":"台康大致地號897號裁定認定執行法院必要時得核發命令終止債務人名下的人壽保險契約並命保險公司償付解約金此裁定確定後保單遭強制執行的案件是急增造成司法體系負擔的加重保險金融機構經營壓力上升並嚴重侵害到保護"},{"start":29.665,"end":51.468,"text":"被保險人及受益人的基本權益我想人壽保險具有高度的公益性意在提供死亡、失能、疾病等基本保險不應視為財產的性質、任意的宗旨強制執行的程序當中未設宗旨保險契約及破壞民眾基本的社會安全網"},{"start":52.389,"end":75.931,"text":"我想這也加重了國家社會的一個救助體系的一個負擔所以有違保險制度一個設立的一個本質我想這些東西主委你應該都非常的清楚相關的一個脈絡但是確保債務人即便遭扣押執行能夠維持基本保險所以我們在今天希望能夠提出保險法的一個部分條文修正"},{"start":76.772,"end":98.451,"text":"以完善這個社會的保障機制我自己也有提案喔但是我有幾個問題想請教一下主委在法制的作業上任何一部法案提出的時候在行政院審查之前都會要求各部會針對修正的重點啊作為法規的一個影響評估請問能不能將保險法的法規影響評估提供給各個委員看一下"},{"start":99.785,"end":114.885,"text":"我想我們在提案之前當然有跟相關比如跟我們的司法院法務部還有行政院那個那法治人民都做溝通還有當然包括學者專家我相信所以我說法規的影響評估我們想知道一下"},{"start":115.886,"end":131.063,"text":"會員可以提供給我嗎可以啊就是等於說我們的相關的過程文件我可以提供給委員好那剛剛主委有提到你也是在交保險的是的那我想問一下請問都是哪些族群被強制執行保單您個人知道嗎"},{"start":131.824,"end":154.135,"text":"我想從現在契約的角度來看其實大法庭的裁定只有人壽保險契約但是實際上我們在實務上幾乎所有的都有可能購買到人壽所以主選不一定對 其實我們看那個配比裡面大概有七成四左右是傷害跟健康傷害險跟健康險"},{"start":154.955,"end":184.375,"text":"那這部分這也是為什麼我覺得這個東西啊應該直接把它排除這是我們立法上面很重要的就實務上很多賢總實在是不具備有被有查扣的價值的時候也變成這個獸類我想這個就是我們現在面臨到很大的問題我想什麼該排除什麼該保留這個部分我們尊重專業但目前我們看到一些困境就是這些當事者他們所提出的那社會已經造成這樣子的一個氛圍的時候我們注意到我們希望能夠重視那我想問一下"},{"start":185.375,"end":201.56,"text":"主委你有沒有知道多少保單被強制執行現在就是總共我們現在案量裡面我們的統計大概123萬件左右123萬件喔我是不知道你的70年啦但是我的70年如果是20231月的話到20249月"},{"start":204.201,"end":227.702,"text":"法院扣押的保單件數就是92.8萬件沒關係這個沒有要比數字正確啦但是可以看到是數字量蠻高的所以我們現在才準備要來修法我是覺得稍嫌過慢但是行政院院版在設定上每人每月最低生活費剛剛很多的委員都在探討這一題"},{"start":229.263,"end":249.008,"text":"1.2倍乘以三個月作為免執行的一個標準但是司法院的報告你們有掌握嗎司法院的報告是標準偏低啦所以剛剛為什麼司民委員世間委員他們甚至是非常非常的批判甚至到很嚴厲的"},{"start":250.228,"end":279.267,"text":"那我們都是一貫的態度就是為民請命當然希望能夠把民眾的聲音傳達這樣的標準實在是太低啊司法院也提出了建議請問免執行的標準是否有調整的機會您覺得呢我剛才已經表達過很多次我們尊重可以可以做回來努力對我想從這個保障基本生活的權利啦重新評估這個門檻另外現行介入權三個月真的夠嗎您個人呢"},{"start":281.088,"end":305.024,"text":"呃 有兩個不同的意見啦 因為事實上 越早確定有人主張越早確定越好 否則這個關係這麼久的話 處於不確定狀況 其實不見得是有利啦我的版本是六個月啦 對對對 我們還是介入人往往是被保險人的配偶 子女 短時間要籌出一筆錢喔保住保單三個月 多數人我覺得是真的不夠啦"},{"start":306.185,"end":333.278,"text":"經管會是否有實際統計或者是評估資料支持三個月就足夠你要說服我們不是單單就告訴我們三個月所以這樣子的判斷我是覺得說是基於作業方便嗎還是真的有這樣子的依據所以我要再次強調我的版本是六個月修法後如何確保各保險公司執行機關落實規定避免能夠損及保障基本的權益這個是我們現在要來努力的"},{"start":333.738,"end":358.03,"text":"跟委員報告 我們可以提供資料我們主要參考國家 他們在提供一個月啦那我們這邊三個月這資料給我了解一下 我們在主條討論的時候我們再來探討 都沒關係但是我希望 不要忘記基本的生活權莫忘世上苦人多對 這是我們的本質啦族群各個種類都有 但是我們永遠要救 能救一個算一個就是我們不要忘記苦民所苦 謝謝對 謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":359.152,"end":367.732,"text":"謝謝 謝謝庭委接著葉言之 葉言之 葉言之委員不在楊瓊英 楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在那請陳佩儀委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1093,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時32分）有請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：主委，有鑑於最高法院108年度台抗大字第897號裁定，認定執行法院必要時得核發命令終止債務人名下的人壽保險契約，並命保險公司償付解約金，此裁定確定後，保單遭強制執行的案件激增，造成司法體系負擔的加重，保險金融機構經營壓力上升，並嚴重侵害到保戶、被保險人及受益人的基本權益。人壽保險具有高度的公益性，意在提供死亡、失能、疾病等基本保險，不應視為財產的性質，任意的終止。強制執行的程序當中，未設終止保險契約及破壞民眾基本的社會安全網，我想，這也加重了國家、社會救助體系的負擔，有違保險制度設立的本旨。我想這些東西主委應該都非常清楚相關的脈絡。","為確保債務人即便遭扣押執行，仍得維持基本保險，所以我們才在今天提出保險法部分條文修正，以完善社會的保障機制。我自己也有提案，但是我有幾個問題想請教一下主委，在法制的作業上，任何一部法案提出的時候，在行政院審查之前，都會要求各部會針對修正的重點，來做法規的影響評估。請問能不能將保險法修法的影響評估提供給各個委員看一下？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們在提案之前當然有跟相關單位，比如說跟司法院、法務部還有行政院相關法制人員都做過溝通，當然還包括學者專家等等。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我相信，所以我說我們想知道一下法規的影響評估，會後可以提供給我嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以啊！相關過程文件我可以提供給委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。剛剛主委提到，你也是教保險的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那我想問一下，都是哪些族群被強制執行保單，您個人知道嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：從現在契約的角度來看，大法庭的裁定只針對人壽保險契約，但是實務上幾乎所有契約都可能……"],["羅委員廷瑋：購買到人壽保險？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，剛剛說……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以族群不一定？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，其實在我們看到的配比裡面，大概有七成四左右是傷害險跟健康險，這是為什麼我們覺得應該直接排除，也是立法上很重要的考量。在實務上，很多險種實在不具備被查扣的價值，卻也因此受累，這就是我們現在所面臨很大的問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想，什麼該排除、什麼該保留，這個部分尊重專業，但我們目前看到一些困境，就是這些當事者所提出的。既然在社會上已經造成這樣的氛圍、我們也注意到了，那我們就希望能夠重視嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那我想問主委，你知不知道有多少保單被強制執行？有沒有統計？"],["彭主任委員金隆：在現有總案量裡面，據我們統計大概有123萬件左右。"],["羅委員廷瑋：123萬件喔？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我是不知道你的統計起始年，我的統計起始年如果是2023年1月的話，到2024年9月為止，法院扣押的保單件數是92.8萬件。"],["彭主任委員金隆：喔！這就是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒關係，沒有要比較數字的正確性啦！但是可以看到的是數字、量滿高的，所以對於現在才準備修法，我覺得稍嫌過慢。行政院版在設定上，針對每人每月最低生活費─剛剛很多委員都在探討這一題，是以1.2倍乘以3個月做為免執行的標準，但是司法院的報告你們有掌握嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有，剛剛也有很多委員提及。"],["羅委員廷瑋：根據司法院的報告，是認為標準偏低啊！這就是為什麼剛剛思銘委員、世堅委員批判得非常厲害，甚至是很嚴厲的。我們態度都是一貫的，就是為民請命，希望能夠把民眾的聲音加以傳達，這樣的標準實在太低啊！連司法院也提出建議。請問免執行的標準是否有調整的機會，您覺得呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才已經表達過很多次，我們尊重、可以做……"],["羅委員廷瑋：會努力？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想應該從保障基本生活權利的角度重新評估這個門檻。","另外，現行介入權3個月真的夠嗎？您個人的看法呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有2個不同意見啦！"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，剛剛有人覺得應該設3個月嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：事實上，有人主張愈早確定愈好，否則關係處於不確定狀態這麼久其實不見得有利。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我的版本是6個月啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們還是建議……"],["羅委員廷瑋：介入人往往是被保險人的配偶、子女，短時間內就要籌出一筆錢保住保單，我覺得3個月對多數人來說真的不夠啦！金管會是否有實際統計或評估資料支持3個月就足夠？你要說服我們，而不是單單告訴我們3個月。這樣的判斷是基於作業方便嗎？還是真的有這樣的依據？我要再次強調，我的版本是6個月。修法後如何確保各保險公司、執行機關落實規定，避免損及基本權益的保障，這都是我們現在要努力的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。跟委員報告，我們可以提供資料，我們的主要參考國家大概是提供1個月，而我們已經變成3個月了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，資料請給我了解一下。"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以，沒問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：到逐條討論的時候，我們再來探討都沒關係，但是我希望不要忘記基本的生活權，莫忘世上苦人多。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這是我們修法的本質啦！這很清楚。"],["羅委員廷瑋：各個種類族群都有啦！我們永遠要能救一個算一個，也就是不要忘記苦民所苦。謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廷瑋。","接著請葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","黃珊珊","羅智強","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","黃國昌","陳玉珍","王世堅","林思銘","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","徐富癸","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「保險法」15案：一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員\n王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人\n分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案；二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第\n一百二十三條之一條文草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等\n19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百\n七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案","agenda_id":"1144301_00006"}}},{"id":"160814","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160814","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423695128a467fd87efca8b6df88a6e7dffca98ab4b80bc74e67db165d9c3a9e3ea845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"12:23:44 - 12:34:58","影片長度":"00:11:14","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場(廠)墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:23:44+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:34:58+08:00","duration":674,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.7009687499999995,"end":7.1353437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.09721875,"end":8.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.480343750000003,"end":13.851593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.851593750000003,"end":13.919093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.952843750000003,"end":13.969718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.969718750000002,"end":65.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.64096875,"end":66.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.91096875000001,"end":145.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.80971875,"end":120.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.33721875,"end":154.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.09534375,"end":175.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.13846875000002,"end":194.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.31284375,"end":199.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.34159375000002,"end":225.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.97034375,"end":249.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.89909375000002,"end":267.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.26346875,"end":308.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.48284375000003,"end":267.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.48909375,"end":317.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.88846875,"end":338.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.08471875000004,"end":331.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.53034375000004,"end":355.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.24659375000005,"end":348.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.38034375,"end":372.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.40346875,"end":370.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.39471875000004,"end":372.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.96846875,"end":382.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.36846875000003,"end":378.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.17409375,"end":380.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.19096875,"end":380.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.22471875,"end":380.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.76471875000004,"end":381.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.03034375000004,"end":391.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.38846875,"end":385.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.03346875,"end":389.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.10909375,"end":396.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.88034375,"end":451.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.70534375000005,"end":410.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.92659375000005,"end":511.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.6259687500001,"end":513.1828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.45284375,"end":514.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.7859687499999,"end":528.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.5515937499999,"end":579.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.1628437500001,"end":560.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.23159375,"end":583.2140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.2140937500001,"end":595.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.22909375,"end":608.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.21846875,"end":638.3615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.8003437500001,"end":658.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.01034375,"end":645.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.3034687500001,"end":666.1884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":666.2222187500001,"end":667.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.94784375,"end":667.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.08221875,"end":671.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.9934687500001,"end":673.74846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.032,"end":6.776,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長"},{"start":13.633,"end":28.188,"text":"黃委員好 部長好 部長我剛剛從早上聽到現在其實很多委員都一直關心我們這個公安的這個議題那我想請教部長就是說在去年台灣重大的這個職災那總共這個奪去了287287條這個人命那幾乎剛剛委員提到幾乎這個"},{"start":38.398,"end":57.318,"text":"1.2天一天兩天之中就就有一個人死掉那另外就是說在這個職災當中這個全失能或者是永久部分失能或者是暫時全失能的這個傷害那在去年我們就看到就有一萬四千多人就是有這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":60.441,"end":81.956,"text":"這個是僱主有通報的那僱主如果沒有通報的話我想這個數字應該是更高所以我想請教就是說部長針對這一部分因為剛剛很多委員也有提到就是說營造業的部分那營造業很多可能就是臨時工或者是派遣工可能早上在這個派遣的這個單位然後今天來"},{"start":87.86,"end":91.362,"text":"馬上他就把他派到這個營造營造的這個地點那完全都沒有受到什麼樣的訓練那也許對這個公安的這種嘗試完全是沒有所以會造成譬如說墜落這麼多或者是直災的狀況這麼多那我想請教這個部長未來我們在這個勞動部的這個部分我們要怎麼去預防那另外就是說"},{"start":115.955,"end":137.836,"text":"呃層層發包的這個部分可能也把這個責任層層的就這個轉轉出去了嗎所以要怎麼樣讓這個企業你比如說我今天如果有一棟大樓要蓋的話那這個企業他怎麼樣也要有一些責任而不是把這個責任全部都轉到這個中包小包小小包把這個責任全部都轉出去"},{"start":138.777,"end":152.747,"text":"所以我想聽一下部長對於未來這樣子的一個狀況你們有什麼樣的因應方式跟黃媛說明確實現在在很多的工地裡面這個層層轉包是一個目前現況的樣態"},{"start":155.151,"end":184.931,"text":"那這個層層轉包的樣態狀態其實也對於很多在這個公安問題上面的究責產生了很多的困擾跟挑戰所以這也是為什麼我們其實現在在這個治安法裡面那我們也希望接下來是要指定一家廠商來做相關責任的統合那有這個有這個責任的統合才有辦法把這些不同很複雜的工程界面在風險上面做一個比較有效的管理這是第一"},{"start":185.051,"end":203.259,"text":"所以這個也是比方我們在去年的全聯的大火的台中全聯大火的事件的時候其實看到他們因為這個這個拼心發包或切分的太多所以造成責任很難管理的情況那我們現在也看到比方說在中捷的事件裡面"},{"start":204.159,"end":226.04,"text":"那業主比方說當時的這個業主他其實是台灣很大的一個相關的企業可是在這個終結的世界裡面卻很難去救責於他所以我們把業主的責任也放進來所以這幾個部分都是我們在制度面上面對於救責希望有一個新的制度上面的強化我們具體的這個修法的跟制度改善的作為是"},{"start":226.4,"end":248.793,"text":"好那現在就是這個職安法那職安法的話我知道上個月就是我們勞動部已經預告了就是職業安全衛生法修法草案那就是預告到4月11號那我想接下來就是說你們這邊的程序或者是進度怎樣是不是可以請部長先做一個說明"},{"start":250.186,"end":266.88,"text":"我們已經在這個禮拜送行政院了所以接下來大家就會進入到行政院的這個法制的程序裡面那我們也會希望跟行政院來盡量來爭取那儘速的能夠完成在院裡面的審議然後趕快送到立法院來"},{"start":267.66,"end":282.08,"text":"好 那接下來我也想請教就是說其實一個公安意外的發生剛剛講的也許營造業它可能就是層層發包那其實很多勞工他如果"},{"start":283.761,"end":307.047,"text":"職災發生了第一個他也許希望能夠透過這個訴訟來究責那有時候因為訴訟這個期間也非常的長也許這個訴訟可能一年兩年那如果這個勞工他的傷害他也許需要急需要用這個用錢那這樣子的話其實我想請教就是說如果有類似這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":308.787,"end":338.167,"text":"勞工也許會碰到他急需用到一些經費也許這個企業或者是這個企業主他想要跟勞工做和解也許到最後勞工就是直接用和解的方式來處理掉這樣的一個公安事件其實有時候對勞工來講並不是那麼的公平所以我想請教勞動部未來如果有類似這樣的一個狀況第一個我們要怎麼樣去協助勞工"},{"start":341.77,"end":353.267,"text":"跟委員報告其實現在職債勞工通常在發生職債以後他就很無助所以我們在目前22個縣市都有這個我們的職業災害的專業服務人員他會及時的接觸這個勞工"},{"start":358.254,"end":379.403,"text":"那當然會提供剛剛委員提到的他需要一些這個職業債補償或是申請債保的給付包括他需要一些社會資源我們這個個案服務人員都會逐萬的去協助他是好所以你們針對這部分你們也有就是說如果真的意外發生的話你們在地方政府嗎"},{"start":380.143,"end":395.191,"text":"還是在地方政府其實在地方我們有補助然後在地方政府然後就是所謂的PASS那他會有個案性的方式來去協助我們很多職災的勞工好那其實剛剛講的真的如果一旦這個職災發生其實"},{"start":396.972,"end":419.35,"text":"可能就會影響到整個家庭的經濟狀況所以我也希望就是說勞動部針對這部分勞工的部分我們真的應該要把他接住因為也許他因為發生這樣的事情整個家庭經濟狀況就一落千丈所以我們希望就是說勞動部站在勞工的這個立場然後更多提供更多的協助那另外就是說我們在勞動部這邊每年"},{"start":420.13,"end":422.953,"text":"就是有這個全國勞檢員編制員額原本是這個2024年是1033人那實際在職是890人那其實還有還不足的部分那另外就是說我想請教就是說在106年監察院那時候就已經有"},{"start":440.426,"end":457.926,"text":"就是糾正勞動部就是勞檢員人力不足的這個問題那勞檢員在第一線服務的時候其實第一個可能就是高危險而且我們發現就是說這些勞檢員多半都是聘用"},{"start":458.627,"end":480.28,"text":"而不是正式的這個公務人員大部分都是聘用那聘用的話有的根本也不適用勞基法或者是薪資升遷或職癌這個職癌的這個發展其實處處受到限制那另外我剛剛提到就是說他只要是去第一線勞檢其實是真的還蠻危險的可能有時候會碰到僱主"},{"start":482.762,"end":495.772,"text":"企業主的惡言相向我相信應該你們自己本身也會聽到很多不只是言語的辱罵或者是有時候是肢體的衝突都有可能發生我想請教部長就是說"},{"start":496.953,"end":511.612,"text":"在之前的這個監察院就有特別提到就是說勞檢員不足也有跟你們提出糾正那另外就是說多半的勞檢員都是聘用人員那未來像類似這樣的一個狀況你們是要怎麼去改善"},{"start":513.569,"end":527.56,"text":"跟黃委員說明其實我們其實之前已經有爭取勞檢員他的這個危害的加級大概5000元到3000元的這個經費那我其實到部裡面以後我自己也感覺很"},{"start":529.621,"end":543.806,"text":"跟財政署討論好幾次我們確實發現老撿人在面對很多他的這個工作場合裡面會會有很多對他很不利或甚至威脅性的挑戰所以我們其實也定我們也會推動一個老撿人的支持的方案"},{"start":544.386,"end":566.801,"text":"那也包括是讓他的專業能力跟他的工作支持都能夠相關的提升那現在目前正在把這個計畫的專案包括經費的編列我們正在規劃都是希望讓勞檢人其實可以有一個更支持系統性支持的後盾那不要讓勞檢人個人去面對現場在執行業務的時候的那些風險因為有的時候那過程就會讓"},{"start":567.642,"end":594.464,"text":"可能老幾人個別會覺得很挫折或者是會有人身上面的安全那這部分我們其實也跟治安署我們這邊在訂立相關的計畫要來提出好那預計是什麼時候因為我覺得你們其實我們之前有開過記者會其實我們之前有開過記者會那我們現在在做在目前持續推動中那包括接下來可能相關經費的編列我們其實在正在處理的是經費編列的規劃"},{"start":596.385,"end":619.824,"text":"好我們希望就剛剛我們提到這麼多不論是這個職業安全的檢查或者是勞動檢查其實我們都希望說在第一線的這些勞檢員都能夠第一個這個流動率不要那麼高第二個可能就是這個高危險的這個工作總是要有一些人要做那當然剛剛部長有特別提到就是說這個預算可能會這個勞檢員的薪資也許會"},{"start":625.248,"end":644.691,"text":"做一些調整加急加急會做一些調整我覺得這個對第一線的勞檢員也許也是一個鼓勵啦那我們最主要是希望就是說第一線的勞檢員在工作自己本身要去做勞檢或做職安的這個檢查我覺得應該自己本身也要保護好自己啦"},{"start":645.271,"end":667.908,"text":"所以我覺得希望就是說這個五一勞動節是明天那我們今天排這樣的一個案子我也希望就是說勞動部站在勞工的這個立場不論是這個工作的安全也好或者是這個職場的這個霸凌的這種種種的部分我希望就是說勞動部站在勞工的立場去想所有的政策是 謝謝委員好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請何新淳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":866,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（12時23分）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，我從早上聽到現在，其實有很多委員都一直關心工安議題。那我想請教部長，去年臺灣重大職災總共奪去了287條人命，也如剛剛有委員提到的，幾乎每1.2天、也就是一天、兩天之中就有一個人死掉。另外，在職災當中的全失能、永久部分失能或暫時全失能傷害，我們看到去年就有一萬四千多人有這樣的狀況。這是雇主有通報的，如果計入雇主沒有通報的，我想這個數字應該更高。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我想請教部長，針對這部分，剛剛很多委員也提到營造業。營造業有很多可能是臨時工或派遣工，今天早上才來，派遣單位馬上把他派到營造地點，勞工完全沒有受到什麼樣的訓練，對於工安的常識也許完全沒有，所以造成的墜落事件或職災狀況這麼多。我想請教部長，勞動部未來對這個部分要怎麼預防？另外，層層發包也可能把責任層層……"],["洪部長申翰：轉嫁。"],["黃委員秀芳：轉出去了，所以要怎麼讓企業負責？譬如說今天有一棟大樓要蓋的話，該企業怎麼樣也要負一些責任，而不是把責任全部轉到中包、小包、小小包，把責任全部轉出去。所以我想聽一下部長的說明，對於這樣的狀況，你們未來有什麼樣的因應方式？"],["洪部長申翰：跟黃委員說明，確實在很多工地裡面，層層轉包是現況的樣態，這個層層轉包的狀態對於工安問題上的究責其實產生很多困擾跟挑戰，這也是為什麼我們接下來希望在職安法裡面指定由一家廠商做相關責任的統合。有了責任的統合，才有辦法針對這些不同的複雜工程介面在風險上做比較有效的管理，這是第一點。比方說，我們在去年的臺中全聯大火事件中看到廠商因為平行發包或切分得太多，造成責任很難管理的情況。我們現在也看到，在中捷事件裡面，當時的業主其實是臺灣一家很大的相關企業，可是在中捷事件裡面卻很難究責於它，所以我們要把業主的責任也放進來。這幾個部分都讓我們希望在制度面針對究責做新的強化，包括具體的修法跟制度改善的作為。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。那現在就談職安法，我知道上個月勞動部已經預告職業安全衛生法修法草案，預告期間到4月11日，那我想請問接下來你們這邊的程序或進度怎樣，是不是可以請部長先做說明？"],["洪部長申翰：我們已經在這個禮拜送行政院，所以接下來大概就會進入行政院的法制程序。我們也會儘量向行政院爭取，希望儘速完成院裡面的審議，然後趕快送到立法院來。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。其實工安意外的發生如同剛剛講的，也許是因為營造業層層發包。當職災發生，很多勞工第一時間也許希望透過訴訟究責，但有時候訴訟期間非常長，也許要訴訟一年、兩年，但這個勞工可能因為這次傷害急需用錢。對於類似這樣的狀況，也就是碰到勞工急需用到一些經費，若企業主也想跟勞工和解，也許到最後勞工就直接用和解的方式處理掉這樣的工安事件，但有時候對勞工來講其實並不是那麼公平。所以我想請教勞動部，未來如果有類似這樣的狀況，第一步要怎麼協助勞工？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，其實現在職災勞工在發生職災以後通常很無助，所以我們目前在22個縣市都有職業災害專業服務人員，他會即時接住該勞工，當然也會提供剛剛委員提到的，包括他需要一些職業災害補償或申請災保給付，包括他需要一些社會資源，我們的個案服務人員都會逐案去協助他們。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。好，所以針對這部分，如果真的有意外發生的話，是在地方政府嗎？還是在……"],["林署長毓堂：在地方政府。"],["洪部長申翰：我們有補助，然後在地方政府，就是所謂的PAS，會用個案性的方式去協助職災的勞工。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。就像剛剛講的，一旦職災發生，可能就會影響到整個家庭的經濟狀況，所以我也希望勞動部針對這部分勞工，真的應該要把他們接住，因為他們也許因為發生這樣的事情，造成整個家庭經濟狀況一落千丈，所以我們也希望勞動部站在勞工的立場，提供更多的協助。","另外，勞動部全國勞檢員編制員額在2024年是1,033人，實際在職是890人，其實還有不足的部分。我想請教，民國106年監察院已經糾正勞動部勞檢員人力不足的問題，勞檢員在第一線服務的時候，可能就是在高危險的環境，而且我們發現，這些勞檢員多半都是聘用，而不是正式的公務人員，大部分都是聘用，聘用人員有的根本也不適用勞基法，或者是在薪資、升遷或職涯發展，處處受到限制。另外，我剛剛提到，他們主要是去第一線勞檢，其實真的是還滿危險的，可能有時候會碰到雇主或企業主的惡言相向，我相信你們自己本身也會聽到很多，不只是言語的辱罵，有時候是肢體的衝突，都有可能發生。我想請教部長，之前監察院就有特別提到勞檢員不足，也有跟你們提出糾正；另外，勞檢員多半都是聘用人員，那未來類似這樣的狀況，你們要怎麼去改善？"],["洪部長申翰：跟黃委員說明，其實我們之前已經有爭取勞檢員危害加給大概是5,000元到3,000元的經費，我到部裡面以後，也跟職安署討論好幾次，我們確實發現勞檢員在面對很多工作的場合裡面，會有很多對他們不利或甚至是威脅性的挑戰，所以我們也會推動勞檢員的支持方案，也包括讓他們的專業能力跟他們的工作支持都能夠提升。目前這個計畫的專案，包括經費的編列，我們正在規劃，都是希望讓勞檢人員可以有一個系統性支持的後盾，不要讓勞檢員個人去面對現場執行業務時的那些風險，因為有的時候那個過程就會讓勞檢員個人覺得很挫折，或者是會有人身上面的安全疑慮，就這個部分我們也跟職安署訂定相關的計畫要來提出。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，那預計是什麼時候？因為我覺得你們……"],["洪部長申翰：其實我們之前有開過記者會，現在持續推動中，包括接下來可能相關經費的編列，我們正在處理的是經費編列的規劃。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，剛剛我們提到這麼多，不論是職業安全的檢查或者是勞動檢查，其實我們都希望在第一線的這些勞檢員都能夠，第一個，流動率不要那麼高；第二個，這個高危險的工作總是要有人要做。剛剛部長有特別提到，勞檢員的薪資也許會做一些調整……"],["林署長毓堂：加給。"],["黃委員秀芳：加給會做一些調整，我覺得這個對第一線的勞檢員也許也是一個鼓勵。我們最主要是希望第一線的勞檢員自己本身要去做勞檢或職安的檢查時也要保護好自己。明天是五一勞動節，我們今天排這樣的案子，我也希望勞動部站在勞工的立場，不論是工作的安全或是職場霸凌種種，我希望勞動部站在勞工的立場去設想所有的政策，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：是。謝謝委員。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請何欣純委員、何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","請王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇委員不在。","請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員，洪孟楷委員不在。","請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}},{"id":"160813","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160813","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369af2bb19ce4d72f1f693dd611367b4ddd98ab4b80bc74e67d6249bd8a06f3bcbd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"12:23:27 - 12:32:53","影片長度":"00:09:26","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查「保險法」15案：\n一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案。【後3案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第一百二十三條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:23:27+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:32:53+08:00","duration":566,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":2.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.03909375,"end":18.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.599093750000002,"end":9.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.61596875,"end":11.759093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.47534375,"end":20.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.812843750000003,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.617843750000002,"end":40.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.564718750000004,"end":43.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.41221875,"end":50.031593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.031593750000006,"end":55.735343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.08971875,"end":62.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.83971875,"end":96.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.69534375,"end":69.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.20159375,"end":98.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.13784375,"end":101.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.11221875000001,"end":103.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.04846875000001,"end":113.58284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.33846875,"end":111.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.69284375000001,"end":111.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.61221875000001,"end":118.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.72971875,"end":130.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.66034375,"end":132.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.66846875000002,"end":152.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.30659375000002,"end":168.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.00034375,"end":173.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.97846875000002,"end":177.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.56846875000002,"end":189.92534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.16159375,"end":199.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.22909375,"end":190.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.84784375,"end":200.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.48909375000002,"end":202.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.86846875,"end":212.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.58846875,"end":220.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.62096875,"end":223.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.50221875000003,"end":229.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.29034375,"end":237.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.46221875,"end":239.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.03159375,"end":239.28471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.01034375,"end":240.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.02721875,"end":250.21971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.55721875,"end":283.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.47534375000004,"end":262.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.88846875,"end":265.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.14284375,"end":290.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.78721875,"end":290.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.83784375,"end":291.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.14159375,"end":293.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.57596875,"end":294.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.51659375,"end":299.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.81534375,"end":304.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.70909375,"end":310.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.97909375,"end":305.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.85659375,"end":306.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.81784375,"end":321.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.66846875000005,"end":337.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.82034375,"end":321.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.97221875,"end":322.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.06409375000004,"end":328.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.75471875,"end":337.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.58159375,"end":341.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.81721875,"end":342.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.89721875000004,"end":344.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.21784375000004,"end":344.80409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.80409375000005,"end":359.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.83784375000005,"end":345.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.48534375,"end":386.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.09909375,"end":375.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.63721875000005,"end":386.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.80596875000003,"end":387.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.97034375000004,"end":397.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.46659375,"end":400.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.95159375000003,"end":403.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.99784375,"end":402.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.17471875,"end":403.37721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.19159375000004,"end":405.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.70596875,"end":412.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.19846875,"end":416.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.55659375000005,"end":420.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.26909375,"end":469.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.82159375000003,"end":422.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.16284375000004,"end":452.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.33159375,"end":452.34846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.36534375,"end":452.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.46659375,"end":452.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.52721875000003,"end":480.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.90096875,"end":485.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.98034375000003,"end":488.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.39346875,"end":496.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.72971875,"end":513.0647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.89846875,"end":497.03346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.98596875000004,"end":504.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.01846875,"end":516.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.2078437499999,"end":518.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":517.67159375,"end":518.2790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.2240937500001,"end":527.5265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":520.8272187499999,"end":521.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.4340937500001,"end":525.9909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.2947187500001,"end":527.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.5603437500001,"end":527.8134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":527.8134687500001,"end":531.8803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.0872187500001,"end":539.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":535.3059687500001,"end":535.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.45721875,"end":539.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.4909687500001,"end":539.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.60909375,"end":539.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.9297187500001,"end":551.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.99971875,"end":551.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.2609687500001,"end":557.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.1203437500001,"end":563.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.8078437500001,"end":564.85409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.109,"end":23.367,"text":"主委好我想剛才黃士堅委員一份天意對於這個豁免額度可能這次金融網會的修法我想委員很多都有意見他也為很多弱勢族群來提出他的一個憤憤不平的看法當然主委剛才沒有回答所以我現在請問主委我想今天我們審查保險法的修正"},{"start":24.828,"end":40.92,"text":"對於豁免執行的解約金的債權金額行政院的版本就是以最近一年衛生福利部或直轄市政府所公告當地區每人每月最低生活費的1.2倍乘以3個月這樣的金額為計算的一個基礎"},{"start":44.463,"end":68.797,"text":"但主委 我想請教你 你知不知道所謂的最低生活費它代表的意義是什麼我想 當然是因為我的理解 我以前沒有接觸到這裡的時候我也不是很了解為什麼會有這個最低生活費後來知道因為了解以後 強制執行的目的並不是要讓人家完全走上一個絕路啦還是要有一個基本的生活"},{"start":69.597,"end":91.025,"text":"所以他但是這個標準呢就要定一個標準讓大家好遵循所以按照各地的生活成本來看那我們當初會定這個就是因為這是因為強制執行而來所以我們就依循這個當然剛剛委員講沒有錯就是很多人對這個有很有意見因為保險畢竟不太相同所以我們經過這次的公聽還有很多的意見以後我們剛才跟很多委員關係我也提過"},{"start":93.687,"end":112.076,"text":"這個我們基於簡證辨明我們可以把它這個標準不要用這麼這個各地的標準我們可以統一的方式來做我告訴你一個概念其實是這個最低生活費其實它是用來當成是否可以申請成為低收入戶的標準我們以那個"},{"start":114.636,"end":129.087,"text":"以台北市為例,台北市最低生活費是多少呢?是20379元以六都來看最低是台南市的15515元"},{"start":132.728,"end":150.045,"text":"那麼我想我上次在上一次的我們財政委員會的公聽會針對這個要不要把房屋租金納為這個特別扣除額那我就去收集相關的數據內政部公告去年台北市的平均房屋租金是13,054元"},{"start":153.408,"end":161.794,"text":"所以你現在以最低生活標準以台北市為例20379元你扣除房屋租金13054元他僅剩7325元"},{"start":169.059,"end":189.688,"text":"扣除他住的需求生活費只剩下7300多所以這是一個非常低的生活標準所以我認為說如果這一次修法你以最低生活標準來作為你們作為這一次豁免的計算基礎顯然是太低了"},{"start":190.228,"end":211.863,"text":"也就是說一個弱勢的保險人 腰保人如果他過去或許他生活很好 所以他買了一張保單那也繳了很多年 但是突然間他面臨困境 他成為低收入戶他要去繳他的租金 房屋租金等等 剩下的生活費不多了"},{"start":212.643,"end":238.654,"text":"但是當他欠債突然間因為這個可能遭遇到什麼大的一個問題所以他今天欠債了但是他過去所繳的保險費他卻因為以這個你用最低收入來計算造成他很容易他的過去所辛辛苦苦的對他一個非常小的一個保障的保險契約就因此而被剝奪了"},{"start":240.386,"end":264.546,"text":"所以謝謝委員提供這麼詳細的這些的說明其實我剛剛跟委員解釋過其實我們在剛剛的前面很多委員也關心過我們這個標準只是當時因為依循我們強制執行法的概念剛才提到就是說這如果會增加很多成本我們也覺得剛剛有委員建議說我們用同一個標準比如像委員有建議用最低工資這是一個統一的標準不會因為地區的差異"},{"start":265.467,"end":289.261,"text":"再剛才像王委員提到那個額度的部分我們也覺得說這要有社會共識我們持開放的態度大家覺得都可以討論我們這邊只是先提剛才委員講一個月我們的版本是三個月嘛大家有更高的共識我們都表示尊重這部分我剛才講已經說明過了所以主委所以你是贊成所以這一次的行政院的你提出來的版本確實它是不足以橫評這個"},{"start":292.723,"end":310.073,"text":"債權跟債務人的權益當然因為債權債務人關係非常的複雜但是就說第一個我們這個經過公聽的時候很多學者專家有完全不一樣的看法其實主委我要告訴你當然我是跟你保險他的精神跟目的在哪裡"},{"start":310.993,"end":320.67,"text":"保險就是要保障我們生活上如果發生萬一發生任何的問題的話一個卑微的最基本的生活保障"},{"start":321.784,"end":340.662,"text":"那如果說連這樣基本的生活保障都要因為欠了一些債務就把它剝奪了這個就失去保險的目的所以剛才王世傑一直強調啊過去人家招攬保險的講得多好聽啊這個絕對不會被強制執行啊不會被扣押啊那謝謝委員其實我本身擔任保險的"},{"start":341.903,"end":358.911,"text":"老師快30年了你是專家我非常清楚其實保險契約本身來講如果純粹只是比如說是以保障的話這個應該不構成強制執行只是說我們很明顯看到就是說我們最近幾年很多商品的演進我想"},{"start":359.571,"end":388.208,"text":"很多人確實有一些保單是拿來當儲蓄的我想各位都很清楚這保單開始變這樣有些人就會拿來這樣才會引發這次的大法庭做這樣的一個解釋所以我說我自己交保險三十幾年過去都不會是個議題當然這件事情我們希望趕快來解決這個問題所以我們來提這個修法所以剛才講我們也權衡各方但是我們對這個態度我們是尊重我們覺得大家有更高的共識所以主委我這次修法的版本你贊成嗎"},{"start":390.149,"end":405.378,"text":"我是認為說是以當年度政府公告的最低工資的三個月金額作為基數這個是一個好的地方就是它是確定的這就很確定不會有什麼各個地方不一樣的一個情況"},{"start":406.559,"end":424.678,"text":"另外也有人提出就是以剛剛講那個標準最高做一個基準這個用個比如說以最高的直轄市就是台北市最高做一個標準就是其實我覺得大家利益都相同就是不要有地域的差別主委我結論這樣子我希望你們考慮支持本席的一個版本"},{"start":425.979,"end":451.866,"text":"這個版本我也經過深思熟慮我個人也認為說這樣以這個基本工資我們政府公關基本工資來做計算的話這個應該是有兼顧到我們債權人以及我們被保險人或者邀保人的相關的一個權益我希望你們能做就是不願意現在這樣一個修法的版本而能夠提出更好的版本"},{"start":452.526,"end":465.797,"text":"我想司法院其實他也支持說這樣子的一個以現行的版本可能是對我們整個債權人或者債務人的尤其對債務人的權益的保障是不夠的"},{"start":469.84,"end":496.201,"text":"但是他也提出一個觀點如果說認為債務人可能藉此來分散保險契約也就是拆單的方式來規避執行的疑慮也可以斟酌修訂或免執行保險契約比數的規定那這部分金管會是不是也要把它考量進去其實我們有評估過仔細評估過要來拆單我覺得這個可能性真的不高因為保險拆單太辛苦"},{"start":498.082,"end":518.523,"text":"我們現在管理的實務上我們監理實務上也不允許保險公司接受這裡故意拆單這樣的實務所以司法院的意見你是不採納的不是 我們的版本我覺得更能夠簡正便民就是用足單的那個概念來做但是太低了用最低生活標準太低了我剛才講說那個額度的部分我們可以討論可以尊重"},{"start":519.344,"end":540.081,"text":"尊重我們審查的結果但是這個沒有問題剛剛很多人有提出這樣的一個看法我覺得這個大家可以來討論我們是尊重直開放的態度所以你還是會支持說我的版本你會支持吧就是那個方向我們剛才已經確定就是說我們朝一個確定的方向但是你要很明確的告訴我們委員你們到底你們的看法是怎麼樣啊"},{"start":540.441,"end":551.143,"text":"那這樣的話我剛才講過就是說只要比現在的那個成本下降我覺得剛剛委員的那個方向跟另外一個的提案是非常類似啦我覺得會並同來討論的好 以上好 謝謝好 謝謝思銘接著請羅廷偉委員質詢好 謝謝有請諸位是 請諸位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1055,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（12時23分）謝謝召委，請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：主委好。剛才王世堅委員義慎填膺，對於豁免額度，可能這次金管會的修法很多委員都有意見，他也為很多弱勢族群提出他忿忿不平的看法，當然主委剛才沒有回答……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，因為我剛剛沒有時間回答。"],["林委員思銘：所以我現在要請問主委，今天審查保險法的修正，對於豁免執行解約金的債權金額，行政院的版本就是以最近一年衛生福利部或直轄市政府所公告當地區每人每月最低生活費的1.2倍乘以3個月的金額為計算基礎，但主委，我想請教你，你知不知道所謂的最低生活費所代表的意義是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我以前沒有接觸到的時候也不是很了解為什麼會有最低生活費，後來了解之後，強制執行的目的並不是要讓人家完全走上絕路，還是要有個基本的生活。"],["林委員思銘：是啊。"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以要按照各地的生活成本訂一個標準讓大家好遵循，當初會訂是因為強制執行而來，所以我們就依循。當然剛剛委員講的沒有錯，很多人也很有意見，因為保險畢竟不太相同，所以我們經過這次的公聽會，還有聽取很多的意見以後，而且針對很多委員的關心，我剛剛也提過，基於簡政便民，我們可以把各地的標準用統一的方式來做。"],["林委員思銘：主委，我告訴你一個概念，其實最低生活費是用來當成是否可以申請為低收入戶的標準，以臺北市為例，臺北市的最低生活費是多少呢？是2萬379元；以六都來看，最低是臺南市的1萬5,515元，在上一次財政委員會的公聽會中，針對要不要把房屋租金納為特別扣除額一事，我有去蒐集相關的數據，像內政部公告去年臺北市的平均房屋租金是1萬3,054元，以現在臺北市最低生活費是2萬379元為例，扣除房屋租金1萬3,054元，他僅剩7,325元，即扣除他住的需求費用，生活費只剩下七千三百多，所以這是一個非常低的生活標準。","我認為這一次修法，若以最低生活費作為這一次豁免的計算基礎，顯然是太低了，也就是說，一個弱勢的保險人、要保人，過去或許他生活過得很好，買了一張保單，也繳了很多年，但是突然間他面臨困境，成為低收入戶，而他也還要去繳他的房屋租金等等，剩下的生活費也不多了，但是他可能突然間遭遇到什麼大的問題，所以他今天欠債了，但是他過去所繳的保險費，卻因為你用最低收入來計算，造成他過去辛辛苦苦買的，對他來說是一個非常小的保障的保險契約，就因此而被剝奪了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員提供這麼詳細的說明，前面很多委員也很關心，我剛剛也解釋過，我們提的這個標準只是當時因為依循強制執行法的概念，剛才有提到，如果會增加很多成本，而且有委員建議我們採用同一個標準，比如像委員有建議用最低工資，這是一個統一的標準，不會因為地區的差異受到影響。"],["林委員思銘：是啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：再來，像剛才王委員提到額度的部分，我們也覺得這要有社會共識，即我們持開放的態度，大家都可以討論，剛才委員提的是一個月，我們的版本是三個月，若大家可以有更高的共識，我們都表示尊重，這部分我剛才已經說明過了。"],["林委員思銘：所以主委贊成這一次行政院的版本、你們提出來的版本，確實是不足以衡平債權人、債務人的權益？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我們的考量是這樣的，因為債權人、債務人的關係非常的複雜，但是之前公聽會的時候，很多學者專家有完全不一樣的看法……"],["林委員思銘：主委，我要告訴你保險的精神跟目的在哪裡，保險就是要保障我們的生活，如果、萬一發生任何問題的話，能有一個卑微的、最基本的生活保障，如果連這樣基本的生活保障，因為欠了一些債務就把它剝奪了，這就失去保險的目的，所以剛才王世堅還一直強調，過去在招攬保險時講得多好聽，這個絕對不會被強制執行、不會被扣押啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，其實我本身擔任教保險的老師快30年了……"],["林委員思銘：你是專家啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以我非常清楚，其實保險契約本身來講，如果純粹以保障來看的話，這個應該不構成強制執行，只是我們很明顯的看到，最近幾年很多商品的演進，很多人的一些保單確實是拿來當儲蓄用的，我想各位都很清楚，這次保單的部分會變成這樣，是因為有些人拿來那樣做，才會引發這次大法庭做出這樣的解釋，所以我才說我自己教保險三十幾年，過去這都不會是個議題，當然我們希望趕快來解決這個問題，所以我們才提這個修法，剛才也講了，我們也權衡各方，但是對於這個部分的態度，我們是予以尊重，希望大家能有更高的共識。"],["林委員思銘：主委，我這次修法的版本，你贊成嗎？我是認為應以我們當年度政府公告最低工資的三個月金額作為基數。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這有一個好的地方，即它是確定的，沒有因為地區而有差別。"],["林委員思銘：這就很確定，不會各個地方有不一樣的情況。"],["彭主任委員金隆：另外也有委員提出，就是以剛剛講的那個標準的最高做為一個基準，比如說以最高的直轄市就是臺北市，以它的最高做為一個標準，其實我覺得大家立意都相同，就是不要有地域的差別。"],["林委員思銘：主委，我的結論是這樣子，我希望你們考慮支持本席的版本，這個版本我也經過深思熟慮，我個人也認為以我們政府公告基本工資來做計算的話，這個應該是有兼顧到我們債權人，以及我們被保險人或者要保人的相關權益，我希望你們不要侷限於現在這樣一個修法版本，而是能夠提出更好的版本，我想司法院其實也是支持的，現行的版本可能對我們整個對於債權人或者債務人的權益，尤其對債務人的權益保障是不夠的。但是它也提出了一個觀點，如果認為債務人可能藉此來分散保險契約，也就是以拆單方式來規避執行方面的疑慮，也可以斟酌修訂豁免執行保險契約筆數的規定，這部分金管會是不是也要把它考量進去？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實我們有仔細評估過拆單一事，我覺得這個可能性真的不高，因為保險拆單太辛苦。第二個，現在我們的管理實務上、監理實務上也不允許保險公司接受故意拆單這樣的方式。"],["林委員思銘：所以司法院的意見你是不採納的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，我覺得我們的版本更能夠簡政便民，就是用逐單的概念來做。"],["林委員思銘：我知道是簡便的，但是用最低生活費實在是太低了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛剛有說額度的部分我們可以討論，會尊重大家審查的結果，沒有問題，剛才很多人也提出這樣一個看法，我覺得這個大家可以來討論，我們是持尊重、開放的態度。"],["林委員思銘：所以我的版本你會支持吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那個方向剛才已經確定了，就是我們朝一個確定的標準，至於說……"],["林委員思銘：但是你要很明確的告訴我們委員，到底你們的看法是怎麼樣。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才有講過，只要能比現在的成本還要下降的話，我覺得剛剛委員的那個方向跟另外一個提案的方向是非常的類似，我覺得可以併同來討論。"],["林委員思銘：好，以上，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝思銘。","接著請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","黃珊珊","羅智強","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","黃國昌","陳玉珍","王世堅","林思銘","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","徐富癸","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「保險法」15案：一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員\n王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人\n分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案；二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第\n一百二十三條之一條文草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等\n19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百\n七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案","agenda_id":"1144301_00006"}}},{"id":"160812","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160812","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369ae5e1a1b9e80afde3c0ba1d923b4b8db98ab4b80bc74e67dcc0bfe413a39fb5b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:20:22 - 12:31:38","影片長度":"00:11:16","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:20:22+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:31:38+08:00","duration":676,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.75159375,"end":9.109718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.109718750000003,"end":9.396593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.396593750000001,"end":9.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.404093750000001,"end":15.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.73721875,"end":17.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.188468750000002,"end":28.414718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.684718750000002,"end":35.080343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.83971875,"end":39.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.923468750000005,"end":42.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.977843750000005,"end":48.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.20909375,"end":52.174718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.52909375,"end":78.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.97221875000001,"end":110.86596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.06846875000001,"end":117.76784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.23284375,"end":112.92471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.34659375000001,"end":114.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.76784375000001,"end":117.78471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.78471875000001,"end":117.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.81846875000001,"end":127.47096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.21909375000001,"end":119.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.66096875000001,"end":127.01534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.47096875000001,"end":127.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.85909375000001,"end":155.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.39409375,"end":133.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.37284375000002,"end":134.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.21221875,"end":136.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.26284375,"end":136.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.43721875,"end":156.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.78284375,"end":160.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.13284375,"end":158.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.02284375000002,"end":160.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.24221875,"end":162.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.18284375000002,"end":162.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.52034375000002,"end":173.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.01221875000002,"end":177.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.97784375,"end":201.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.34721875000002,"end":191.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.48471875,"end":214.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.02284375000002,"end":221.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.05596875,"end":218.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.65471875,"end":222.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.15659375,"end":222.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.57846875,"end":241.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.77659375000002,"end":224.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.83971875,"end":224.89034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.90721875000003,"end":230.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.96784375000001,"end":244.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.17409375000003,"end":255.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.34971875000002,"end":266.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.97659375,"end":271.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.02659375,"end":271.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.30909375000005,"end":290.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.74284375,"end":280.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.34159375,"end":281.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.66971875,"end":286.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.32784375,"end":287.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.75784375,"end":290.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.85471875,"end":290.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.98971875,"end":304.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.12409375000004,"end":295.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.71409375,"end":309.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.96159375,"end":318.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.64784375,"end":319.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.98534375,"end":320.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.97659375,"end":321.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.02721875000003,"end":321.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.04409375,"end":321.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.76971875000004,"end":321.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.92159375,"end":321.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.97221875,"end":322.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.02284375,"end":365.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.13409375000003,"end":410.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.52534375000005,"end":378.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.46034375000005,"end":425.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.29471875,"end":418.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.08284375000005,"end":425.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.09534375000004,"end":426.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.55096875000004,"end":431.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.71034375000005,"end":440.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.02971875000003,"end":440.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.29971875,"end":441.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.36721875,"end":453.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.57784375000006,"end":442.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.18909375000004,"end":446.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.49659375000005,"end":449.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.36096875000004,"end":453.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.91784375000003,"end":454.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.96409375,"end":461.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.44409375000004,"end":462.25409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.25409375000004,"end":462.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.27096875,"end":482.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.00471875000005,"end":465.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.04221875,"end":468.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.67034375000003,"end":473.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.81346875,"end":474.18471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.36471875,"end":501.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.97784375000003,"end":512.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.87909375,"end":516.2709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.4734687499999,"end":524.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.06284375,"end":527.6953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.21846875,"end":529.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.7709687500001,"end":532.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.3147187500001,"end":546.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.2422187500001,"end":538.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.0522187500001,"end":539.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.9665937500001,"end":550.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.84346875,"end":554.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.93159375,"end":562.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.20034375,"end":564.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.27596875,"end":565.4953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.76534375,"end":575.0634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.72159375,"end":592.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.6303437500001,"end":593.5078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.71471875,"end":606.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.94034375,"end":619.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.40659375,"end":621.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.22909375,"end":624.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.4565937500001,"end":625.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.5365937500001,"end":643.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.2278437500001,"end":632.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.8772187500001,"end":633.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.41596875,"end":642.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.9853437500001,"end":660.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.9428437500001,"end":645.6853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.71471875,"end":647.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.53721875,"end":649.7859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.4228437500001,"end":651.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.34221875,"end":654.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.9578437499999,"end":657.4978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":658.2065937500001,"end":658.6284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":659.21909375,"end":662.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.89784375,"end":666.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.9822187500001,"end":663.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.01971875,"end":675.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.39909375,"end":668.7197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.60534375,"end":671.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":672.61784375,"end":672.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.6303437500001,"end":673.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.55846875,"end":674.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":676.3472187500001,"end":676.65096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.325,"end":9.367,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是有請農業部長陳部長部長好部長我們事實上在早上9點的時候我們有開記者會我們是集會委員那我們是針對現在是這一個這個關稅那這個國土強韌特別條例強化經濟"},{"start":35.948,"end":54.6,"text":"社會及國土強韌的一個特別條例的一個草案那這個草案編列的4100億那我們看到農業的部分大概還是維持180億那我們主要的一個訴求就是說你看從這個關稅的時候原本880億農業部是匡列180億"},{"start":58.002,"end":60.985,"text":"現在已經擴張到了4100億的一個規模但是農業的部分還是180億所以我想要請教部長你認為180億足以因應我們接下來因為關稅談判的一個結果"},{"start":73.156,"end":97.834,"text":"所对于我们的浓水产品造成的冲击180亿购码我想跟委员报告就是现在关税正在谈判所以最后的关税的结果是怎么样还有很高的不确定性那以现在10%的30天的暂缓期那在这个短时间之内透过金融支持跟后面的国内外行销的部分这个经费看起来是足够的"},{"start":98.234,"end":127.171,"text":"但是如果後續如果關稅定案以後關稅的衝擊我們會重新去評估這樣這樣的衝擊如果遠高於我們預期的時候那相對的我們需要更多的經費一定會向行政院去做爭取所以未來未來可能還是會跟行政爭取還是會繼續爭取現在關稅不確定性很高嘛到底是多少還不確定部長我要跟你提示一件事情齁所謂的關稅你說不確定性這個不確定性不只是來自於台灣跟美國的關稅不確定喔"},{"start":128.011,"end":147.281,"text":"甚至包括其他國家跟美國的關稅都會衝擊到我們台灣的產業尤其會衝擊到農業我舉例就是像類似中國縱使我們跟美國最後有一個關稅的一個定案但是中國跟美國之間的關稅好如果高達了現在說145%那勢必未來中國的這個農產品不會進入到美國的嘛"},{"start":153.064,"end":159.45,"text":"他會衝擊到我們其他的目標市場國對 然後中國的這個農產品就會遭到捕獲啊遭到捕獲一定就是衝擊到我們所以這個的一個影響並不是說我們跟美國談的怎樣那到底我們未來這個跟美國的品項或者是我們要擴大採購美國的一些產品"},{"start":174.184,"end":195.449,"text":"也不是這樣而已,還有這個後面連帶的一個效應了解,就像委員所提到的,我以毛豆為例,毛豆我們最主要的產品是銷往日本那中國是銷往美國,那中國不能銷往美國的時候,它一定往日本市場到所以我們整個的一個方案支持也去強化的回防日本"},{"start":196.169,"end":218.214,"text":"就是我們要進去美國也要回防日本這個部分就是我們要去綜合考量除了我們跟美國的關稅以外還有美國跟特別是跟中國的關稅還有跟我們主要的競爭對手國的關稅是怎麼樣子我們才能夠評斷後續的產業支持方案怎麼去調整好所以我們就是類似在這個行銷的部分如果這樣看起來這個180億裡面你們這個擴大74億吧"},{"start":224.806,"end":229.708,"text":"我這邊看到72億嘛 擴大海外行銷是51億那擴大國內行銷是22億所以這72億大概就是在於行銷這部分那既然有這72億的話我想要請教部長我們的具體作為是什麼我想有分為幾塊第一個區塊就是"},{"start":245.659,"end":270.931,"text":"你持續外銷的時候有所謂的外銷獎勵的部分然後第二個區塊就是其實我們要趁這個機會去去建構我們的國外的通路所以我們會加強我們的產品在國外的行銷的部分包括行銷的展覽或行銷的布展的部分甚至於跟國外的通路商連結的部分的這些媒合這個部分我們都會去加強然後不只是美國市場還有其他的主要目標市場我們都會來處理"},{"start":272.372,"end":282.545,"text":"那我們有可能在國內也辦了類似日本東京食品展類似這樣的一個策展我們也在規劃台灣能量辦這樣的一個策展邀請國際的一些業者國際的人採購來看台灣的農村產品過去都是我們到東京去因為我們想賣到東京去"},{"start":291.556,"end":317.636,"text":"我們現在每一年類似的像國際的食品展也在台灣辦那類似的展覽我們也在那邊評估看有沒有機會我們有沒有辦法爭取到類似這樣的一些國際策展然後在台灣舉辦然後讓台灣的這個農水產品可以大量的在這個策展裡面被大家看見我想非常謝謝韋的建議我想我們會針對這個部分我們會用一個專案的方式來評估看有沒有機會去爭取國家國際的大展在我們台灣舉辦"},{"start":319.057,"end":344.181,"text":"我覺得這部分真的是要這個部分很好的想法我們會來努力來找那部長這部分再加油那再進入一個產業的議題就是說現在那個養羊的協會雖然台灣的養羊並不是太多不過這個也是基於糧食安全事實上這樣的一個畜牧產業還是有它存續的一個需求"},{"start":344.961,"end":365.649,"text":"那他們現在面對的就是價格的因素大概從過去的一個拍賣價格在260塊現在都降到了179塊所以價格降很多那已經遠低於他們的成本價大概是在230左右所以面對這樣的一個產業的困境那農業部我們有沒有怎樣因應的一個作為呢"},{"start":366.349,"end":386.442,"text":"我想跟委員報告,這個羊肉的部分其實也超乎我們的預期就是一般羊肉通常在冬天比較吃得比較多,比較有消可是相對我們從一月到三月溫度比較低的時候,它的價格還是不斷的下降表示說我們的消費者對吃羊肉這件事情好像越來越不熱衷"},{"start":387.643,"end":410.356,"text":"就是所以怎麼樣讓消費者從實這樣子吃羊肉的這樣子一個產品包括產品的開發包括行銷跟宣導我已經要求我們的畜牧師不能只注重牛肉啊羊啊有沒有還要針對這些小眾的這個產業也要加強去做一些宣導跟提供一個讓國人知道的一個行銷的一個作為"},{"start":412.44,"end":430.973,"text":"這個羊羊協會是有具體說農業部能不能在他們這個比較寒冬的時候比較辛苦的時候對他們做一些這個屠宰的費用的一個補助啦那我想這部分農業部是可以徵求的這個我們會來評估但是更重要就是我想我們在接近寒冬的時候甚至不一定在寒冬啦就是要"},{"start":431.773,"end":443.918,"text":"多一點的國內的行銷跟宣導讓消費者來引用啦來使用我覺得這個部分我們會先來做那到時候的屠宰如果需要我對我也有吃過我們國產的油肉啦說實在的國產的油肉喔那個鹹味嘛那個鹹的味比較沒那麼重我覺得是很好吃"},{"start":450.36,"end":471.814,"text":"所以這個事實上農業部事實上再幫他們宣導一下料理包的部分我們會支持啦然後最後土宅的部分的協助我們到時候再看它整個的行銷的情況怎麼樣沒關係我覺得說台灣是因為我們要每一種蛋白質都很重要嘛那不同的產業有的雖然比較是小眾但是遇到困難的時候我們農業部還是要給他們寓意我想我們會關注這個產業好那如果進入今天的這個議題我最後講一下"},{"start":477.538,"end":500.007,"text":"事實上整個流浪狗的問題在於鄉下,尤其是海邊,事實上是很嚴重的那尤其是在養殖業越發達的地方,大概流浪狗的問題就越嚴重因為現在的流浪狗都是成群結隊的,而且牠們很厲害牠們沒到蜜蜀的時候,牠們也會跳下去去溫暖,每次去抓魚"},{"start":502.349,"end":511.304,"text":"自己抓魚來吃 那是真的做厲害的喔已經這個流浪狗都變成獵犬 他們直接都可以自己抓魚所以我覺得要處理流浪狗的問題"},{"start":514.451,"end":532.627,"text":"這個總共很複雜的所以保定我剛剛有聽到你回覆了很多委員的質詢不過我覺得有幾個面向我們可能可以優先處理第一個就是說這個餵食的這個就是有很多愛心比較豐富的會去餵食流浪狗"},{"start":533.388,"end":550.978,"text":"那他去餵食流浪狗這件事就是會變成讓這些流浪狗會滋生會繼續然後會在這邊變成一個族群所以我覺得餵食這件事應該要適度的予以限制不要讓他們再餵食了"},{"start":551.909,"end":574.748,"text":"好 那如果沒有辦法把法定定到 含罪人這個餵食流浪狗的話那至少如果他有餵食的行為的話是不是就要把他認定 推定他們是事主那如果發生了流浪狗去追人 流浪狗造成追車然後讓我們這裡的大人騎腳踏車去給流浪狗 要把他拔到手上"},{"start":575.765,"end":598.035,"text":"那是不是這一些餵食的人就是說因為如果有證據證明這次流浪狗他有餵食的話他就要推定為市主所以他也應該要負擔市主跟市主一樣的責任動保法第三條第一項第七款的市主責任謝謝委員事實上現在目前有一些案例也用這樣的方式判定了但是"},{"start":598.695,"end":619.654,"text":"要避免那個流浪犬群聚其實飼主的餵養的這個事件如果能夠適度的停止的時候會有比較好的結果那現在我們在自然保護區的部分就已經強制性的禁止餵養但是在社區的部分你要用強制的話可能會遭到很大的反彈所以我們會再更努力的讓"},{"start":622.284,"end":640.499,"text":"餵養的特定的人士知道如果那隻被你養的這隻狗 如果貓如果發生 造成一些人群衝突的時候他必須要負擔事主責任事主責任 這樣的話他們可能就會讓他們有點擔心啦所以這個宣導就變得非常重要我想後續我們會再"},{"start":641.88,"end":659.645,"text":"所以部長你說得很清楚嘛現在他有餵食如果這部分被人家拍照起來證明說這一隻雖然是流浪狗但是他就固定在餵食他嘛只要有證據的話他就要負擔事主責任至少部長你在這一個點你是支持而且你會貫徹這樣做而且我們應該更加強宣導讓他們知道啦這樣的話可能會減少這些飼養的行為"},{"start":666.067,"end":674.215,"text":"好那就從宣導面先加強啦這流浪國的問題我估計這很多我實在時間不夠了以後有機會再跟部長來討論好不好好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1031,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時20分）謝謝主席。是不是有請農業部部長？"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長好。部長，事實上在早上9點的時候我們十幾位委員有開記者會，是針對因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例的草案，這個草案編列了4,100億，我們看到農業的部分大概還是維持180億，我們主要的訴求是，從這一次關稅談判的時候，原本編列880億，農業部是匡列180億，現在已經擴大到了4,100億的規模，但是農業的部分還是180億，所以我想要請教部長，你認為180億足以因應接下來關稅談判的結果對於我們的農、水產品造成的衝擊，匡列180億夠嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，現在關稅正在談判，所以最後關稅談判的結果是怎麼樣還有很高的不確定性，以現在10%關稅過了30天的暫緩期，在這個短時間之內，透過金融支持跟後面國內外行銷的部分，這個經費看起來是足夠的，但是後續如果關稅定案以後，我們會重新去評估關稅的衝擊，如果衝擊遠高於我們預期的時候，相對地我們需要更多的經費，一定會向行政院去做爭取。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以未來可能還是會繼續爭取。"],["陳部長駿季：還是會跟行政院爭取，因為現在關稅不確定性很高，到底是多少還不確定。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我要跟你提醒一件事情，所謂的關稅的不確定性，這個不確定性不只是來自於臺灣跟美國的關稅不確定，甚至包括其他國家跟美國的關稅，都會衝擊到臺灣的產業，尤其會衝擊到農業。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我舉例，像類似中國，縱使我們跟美國最後有關稅的定案，但是中國跟美國之間的關稅，就像現在高達了145%，勢必未來中國的農產品不會進入到美國。"],["陳部長駿季：他會衝擊到我們其他的目標市場國。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，然後中國的農產品就會跑去別的地方。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：中國農產品跑去別的地方，一定就會衝擊到我們的農產品，所以關稅的影響並不只是我們跟美國談的怎樣，到底我們未來跟美國的品項，或者是我們要擴大採購美國的一些產品，也不只這樣而已，還有後面連帶的效應。"],["陳部長駿季：了解，就像委員所提到的，我以毛豆為例，我們毛豆最主要是銷往日本；中國是銷往美國，當中國不能銷往美國的時候，他一定往日本市場倒。"],["蔡委員易餘：是啊，他還是會到其他……"],["陳部長駿季：我們整個支持方案也去強化回防日本，就是我們要進軍美國，也要回防日本，這個部分我們要去綜合考量，除了我們跟美國的關稅以外，特別是中國跟美國的關稅，還有美國跟我們主要的競爭對手國的關稅是怎麼樣，我們才能夠去評斷後續的產業支持方案怎麼調整。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，所以類似在這個行銷的部分，這樣看起來對180億裡面，你們擴大有……"],["陳部長駿季：74億吧？"],["蔡委員易餘：對，我這邊看到72億。"],["陳部長駿季：72億。"],["蔡委員易餘：擴大海外行銷是50億。"],["陳部長駿季：對，海外行銷而不限於美國市場。"],["蔡委員易餘：擴大國內行銷是22億，所以這72億大概就是在於行銷的部分。"],["陳部長駿季：對！"],["蔡委員易餘：既然有這72億的話，我想要請教部長，我們的具體作為是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我想有分為幾塊，第一個區塊，持續外銷有所謂外銷獎勵的部分；第二個區塊，其實要趁這個機會去建構我們國外的通路，所以會加強我們的產品在國外行銷的部分，包括行銷的展覽或佈展的部分，甚至跟國外的通路商連結的媒合，這個部分我們都會去加強。然後不只是美國市場，還有其他的主要目標市場，我們都會來處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們有可能在國內舉辦類似日本東京食品展這樣的策展活動嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們也在規劃，那個是在國內的部分。"],["蔡委員易餘：臺灣有沒有能量辦這樣的策展，邀請國際的業者、國際的人來採購，來看臺灣的農水產品？過去都是我們到東京去，因為我們想賣到東京嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們現在每一年，像國際的食品展有在臺灣辦，類似的展覽我們也在評估，看有沒有機會跟那個展覽結合，用這樣的方式來處理。"],["蔡委員易餘：有沒有辦法爭取到類似的國際策展在臺灣舉辦，然後讓臺灣的農水產品可以大量的在策展裡面被大家看見？"],["陳部長駿季：是，非常謝謝委員的建議，針對這個部分我們會用專案的方式來評估，看有沒有機會去爭取國際的大展在我們臺灣舉辦，用這樣的方式。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我覺得這個部分真的是要……"],["陳部長駿季：對，這是很好的想法，我們會努力來找。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，這部分再加油。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：再進入一個產業的議題，現在養羊的協會，雖然臺灣養羊的並不是太多，不過這個也是基於糧食安全，事實上這樣的畜牧產業還是有它存續的需求，他們現在面對的就是價格的因素，過去的拍賣價格是260元，現在都降到了179元，所以價格降很多，已經遠低於他們的成本價230元左右，面對這樣的產業困境，農業部有沒有怎樣的因應作為？"],["陳部長駿季：羊肉的部分其實也超乎我們預期，一般羊肉通常在冬天吃的人會比較多。"],["蔡委員易餘：比較有銷路。"],["陳部長駿季：比較有銷路。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為羊肉比較適合冬天吃。"],["陳部長駿季：可是相對的，從1月到3月，在溫度比較低的時候，它的價格還是不斷地在下降，表示我們的消費者對吃羊肉這件事情好像越來越不熱衷，所以怎麼樣讓消費者重拾吃羊肉的產品，包括產品的開發，包括行銷與宣導，我已經要求我們的畜牧司不能只注重牛肉，還要針對這些小眾的產業去加強宣導，提供一個讓國人知道的行銷作為。"],["蔡委員易餘：養羊協會是有具體地說，農業部能不能在他們比較寒冬的時候、比較辛苦的時候，對他們做一些屠宰費用的補助？農業部是不是可以斟酌一下？"],["陳部長駿季：這個我們會來評估，但是更重要就是我們在接近寒冬的時候，甚至於不一定在寒冬，就是要多一點國內的行銷與宣導，讓消費者來食用，這個部分我們會先來做，然後到時候的屠宰如果需要農業部來……"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我也有吃過國產羊肉，說實在的，國產羊肉的羊騷味比較沒那麼重，我是覺得很好吃，所以這個部分請農業部再幫他們宣導一下。"],["陳部長駿季：對，料理包的部分我們會支持啦！然後最後屠宰的部分來協助，我們到時候再看它整個行銷的情況怎麼樣。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒關係，我覺得臺灣我們每一種蛋白質都很重要，那不同的產業，雖然有的是比較小眾，但是他們遇到困難的時候，農業部還是要予以協助。"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們會關注這個產業，謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，進入今天的議題，我最後講一下，流浪狗的問題在鄉下，尤其是海邊，事實上是很嚴重的。在養殖業越發達的地方，流浪狗的問題就越嚴重，因為現在的流浪狗都是成群結隊，而且牠們很厲害，在沒辦法覓食的時候，牠也有辦法跳進魚塭去抓魚，自己抓魚來吃，真的是很厲害，流浪狗已經都變成獵犬，牠們可以直接自己抓魚，所以我覺得要處理流浪狗的問題，狀況很複雜。","部長，我剛剛有聽到你回復了很多委員的質詢，我覺得有幾個面向我們可能可以優先處理啦！第一個就是餵食，有很多愛心比較豐富的人會去餵食流浪狗，他去餵食流浪狗這件事情就會讓這些流浪狗滋生。"],["陳部長駿季：繼續在那邊。"],["蔡委員易餘：會繼續，然後在這邊會變成一個族群，所以我覺得餵食這件事情應該要適度地予以限制，不要讓他們再餵食了。如果沒有辦法把法令訂到限制他們餵食流浪狗的話，至少在他有餵食行為的時候，是不是就要認定、推定他是飼主？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果發生流浪狗追人、流浪狗追車，一些長者騎腳踏車被流浪狗追到跌倒受傷，那麼對於這些餵食的人，如果有證據證明他有餵食這隻流浪狗的話，是不是就要推定他為飼主，他也應該負擔跟飼主一樣的責任，即動保法第三條第一項第七款的飼主責任，有沒有辦法這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員，事實上目前有一些案例也用這樣的方式判定，但是要避免流浪犬群聚，其實飼主餵養的事件如果能夠適度停止的時候，會有比較好的結果。現階段我們在自然保護區的部分已經強制性地禁止餵養了，但是在社區的部分你要用強制的話，可能會遭到很大的反彈，所以我們會再更努力地讓餵養的特定人士知道，如果被你養的這隻狗造成一些人犬衝突的時候……"],["蔡委員易餘：發生攻擊的事件，他必須要負擔飼主責任。"],["陳部長駿季：他就是要負飼主責任，這樣的話，可能就會讓他們有點擔心啦！所以宣導就變得非常重要，我想後續特別是在鄉下地區……"],["蔡委員易餘：好，所以部長說得很清楚嘛！現在他有餵食，如果這部分被人家拍照起來，證明這一隻雖然是流浪狗……"],["陳部長駿季：對，他就是飼主。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是他就固定在餵食牠嘛！只要有證據的話，他就要負擔飼主責任。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：至少部長在這一點你是支持，而且你會貫徹這樣做，沒有錯吧？"],["陳部長駿季：對，而且我們應該更加強宣導讓他們知道，這樣的話，可能會減少這些飼養的行為。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，那就從宣導面先加強。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：流浪狗的問題我覺得還有很多，實在是時間不夠了，以後有機會再跟部長討論，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請李坤城委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","葉元之","蔡易餘","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","邱議瑩","張雅琳","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員呂玉\n玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員劉建國等 16 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案；七、本\n院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」\n案；八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員李坤城等\n22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案；十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十四、本院委員郭昱晴\n等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護\n法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保\n護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案；十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動\n物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正\n草案」案；十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案；二\n十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二十一、本院委\n員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬\n具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案；二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五\n條之二條文修正草案」案；二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等 17 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17 人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案\n（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144501_00004"}}},{"id":"160811","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160811","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423697088a2ac90ed39768b6df88a6e7dffca98ab4b80bc74e67db0f568547c5b28c35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:18:21 - 12:23:39","影片長度":"00:05:18","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場(廠)墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:18:21+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:23:39+08:00","duration":318,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.95471875,"end":6.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.785343750000001,"end":6.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.15159375,"end":11.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.40471875,"end":108.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.438468750000002,"end":11.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.21221875,"end":118.37534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.78034375000001,"end":149.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.98221875000002,"end":158.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.87534375,"end":176.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.34096875,"end":209.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.77471875,"end":219.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.49034375000002,"end":236.73659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.04846875,"end":272.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.62971875,"end":286.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.29846875000004,"end":288.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.78784375000004,"end":286.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.82971875000004,"end":306.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.00846875,"end":315.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.61909375000005,"end":314.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.75784375,"end":317.97284375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.974,"end":29.123,"text":"好謝謝主席那有請部長謝謝勞動部部長部長吳安明天就是五一勞動節其實有非常多的委員在我前面都已經提出了不管是職場霸凌國定假日退休保障那這個我們就不再贅述但是我想要跟部長討論另外一個事情在部長您過去擔任立委期間你長期關注的淨零轉型當中"},{"start":29.622,"end":59.185,"text":"跟所謂的勞工有關的其實是公正轉型那在TK的報告裡面我們可以看到目前他們預估預估相關的計算受到淨零轉型衝擊的勞工人數會來到230萬人那立即性影響到立即性的會是200萬人那整體來說也就是說這個數量其實非常非常龐大那我相信部長您現在從立委的位置移動到勞動部長的位置我相信這件事情應該也還是部長您所關心的事情對不對"},{"start":59.825,"end":69.636,"text":"是當然還是很關心好那我們來實際看一下他們現在的訴求來下一張目前他們的訴求有三個第一個是關於所謂的高碳洩漏風險產業他們認為應該要修法規範擬定所謂自主減量計畫的時候"},{"start":74.662,"end":103.166,"text":"要先跟工會進行協商來確保勞工在這個過程當中他們的權益有受到保障還有就是過往的對話機制他們認為不夠法治化有沒有機會法治化這件事情強化勞工的聲音在整個公正轉型過程當中的參與還有他們的權利那當然最後另外的是跨部會的問題跟環境部有關他們的訴求是碳費費率審議會應該要納入工會代表那我想前面兩個訴求跟部長您比較相關可不可以請部長就前面兩個"},{"start":104.046,"end":128.58,"text":"他們的訴求告訴我們你們目前的為止的準備跟相關的回應跟陳委員報告其實農部很願意來跟環境部那也包括相關產業主管機關來合作那在產業面對氣候要減碳或者是說淨零轉型的路上那我們確實是需要把勞工相關的權益給保護好"},{"start":129.74,"end":157.748,"text":"所以我們其實也很願意來跟環境部一起來討論如何在企業的減碳計畫中讓工會或者是勞工朋友有更多機會來了解跟更多的參與的角色這部分我們很願意來跟環境部一起來做這部分的研擬那甚至我們也在思考我們也希望可以成立是不是一個跨部會的平台來做相關的資源編列的整合來推動"},{"start":158.948,"end":176.025,"text":"可能更具永續或者是氣候友善目標的一些訓練或者是就業的計畫那這部分希望能夠讓我們的產業跟勞工在這個可能淨零轉型的過程裡面有更多支持的力量這都我們希望可以更進一步來推動好"},{"start":176.866,"end":205.132,"text":"我非常開心聽到部長甚至提到所謂跨部會平台的計畫透過兩個部會的合作不管是相關的民間資訊或是民間的聲音或者是政府的資源怎麼嫁接起來因為部長剛剛講到一個非常重要的事情在勞工從事勞動工作這麼長的時間當中他確實得跟著時代的轉變不斷的增能但增能這個事情剛剛勞動部講到甚至相關就業計畫的輔導我們都非常期待後續可以看到很棒的進度那這個部分當然不是說了就算"},{"start":205.892,"end":223.775,"text":"後續會再追蹤那也會再跟勞動部跟環境部一些時間所以我們希望可能接一段時間跟環境部起來討論甚至來找我們的工會的朋友或者是相關關心的團體我們就一起來做這方面的討論好這個部分我們辦公室會再持續追蹤那接下來最後一題就是"},{"start":224.475,"end":235.7,"text":"3月19號我有拜託部長關於在勞動權益的部分尤其在兒少15到19歲的這個部分那當時部長快速的說會帶回去討論那我就想要確定一下目前的進度為何謝謝"},{"start":239.076,"end":258.965,"text":"在關於兒少的就業權益包含他們現在可能是弱勢少年因為年紀輕 經驗少相對找到的工作可能心思也不是太好又遇到所謂高風險的工作環境那目前在兒少法修法的時候呢衛福部說可能會把相關34到36刪除那當時勞動部這邊也有一些自己的立場"},{"start":259.665,"end":285.171,"text":"那還有就是在我們行政院的角度或是勞動部的高度有怎麼樣可以更積極協助這些兒少打工的或者是實習生他們在相關的工作場域他們的權益可以受到保障他們的生命可以受到保護來 謝謝部長我們應該有把這些相關的議題其實納入到目前包括我們之前參與行政院召開的全國兒少政策的研商會議裡面包括我們的兒少職場安全衛生權益小組裡面放進來討論"},{"start":286.951,"end":314.038,"text":"所以他是院等級的討論會議?行政院裡面是有一個相關的研商會議但我們部裡面在3月26號其實有召開我們這個也是一個跨部會的關於兒少職場安全衛生的權益小組的會議但我想我可以再把我們這開會的狀況在相關的資料再提供給陳委員好時間有限那我就想我們之後再跟勞動部所資如何在跟衛福部合作的平台上協助這些兒少的事情好謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":316.752,"end":316.954,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":843,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時18分）謝謝主席，有請勞動部部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長午安。明天就是五一勞動節，其實在我前面有非常多委員都已經提出問題，不管是職場霸凌、國定假日、退休保障，這些我就不再贅述，我想跟部長討論另外一件事情。在部長過去擔任立委期間長期關注的淨零轉型當中，跟勞工有關的其實是公正轉型，而在TCAN的報告裡可以看到，以目前他們的相關預估與計算，受到淨零轉型衝擊的勞工人數會來到235萬人，影響具立即性的會是200萬人，也就是整體來說，這個數量其實非常非常龐大。部長從立委的位子移動到勞動部長的位子，我相信這件事情應該也還是部長您所關心的事情，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是，當然還是很關心。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我們實際看一下他們現在的訴求。目前他們的訴求有3個：第一，針對所謂的高碳洩漏風險產業，他們認為應該修法規範擬定自主減量計畫的時候，要先跟工會協商，確保勞工權益在這個過程當中受到保障。還有，對於過往的對話機制，他們認為不夠法制化，所以有沒有機會做到法制化這件事情、強化勞工的聲音，以及確保他們在整個公正轉型過程當中的參與和權利？當然，另外一個是跨部會的問題，跟環境部有關，他們的訴求是碳費費率審議會應該納入工會代表。我想，前面兩個訴求跟部長您比較相關，可不可以請部長就他們前面兩個訴求告訴我們目前為止的準備跟相關回應？"],["洪部長申翰：好。跟陳委員報告，其實勞動部很願意跟環境部、也包括相關產業主管機關合作。在產業面對氣候變遷、要減碳或者淨零轉型的路上，我們確實需要把勞工的相關權益給保護好，所以我們其實也很願意跟環境部一起討論如何在企業減碳計畫中，讓工會或者是勞工朋友有更多機會了解以及有更多參與的角色，我們很願意跟環境部一起做這部分的研擬。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。"],["洪部長申翰：我們甚至也在思考，希望成立一個跨部會平臺做相關資源的編列與整合，並推動更具永續或氣候友善目標的訓練或者是就業計畫，透過這部分讓產業跟勞工在淨零轉型過程裡面獲得更多支持的力量，這些我們都希望可以更進一步推動。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我非常開心聽到部長甚至提到跨部會平臺的計畫，透過兩個部會的合作，讓相關民間資訊或民間聲音與政府資源怎麼嫁接起來。","部長剛剛講到一件非常重要的事情，勞工在從事勞動工作這麼長的時間當中，確實得跟著時代的轉變不斷地增能，關於增能這件事情，勞動部長剛剛甚至講到相關就業計畫的輔導，所以我們都非常期待後續可以看到很棒的進度。這部分當然不是說了就算，我們後續會再追蹤，也會再給勞動部跟環境部一些時間。"],["洪部長申翰：是，我們希望接下來一段時間跟環境部一起討論，甚至找工會的朋友或關心的相關團體一起做這方面的討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個部分我們辦公室會再持續追蹤。","接下來最後一題：3月19號我拜託部長關於勞動權益的問題，尤其是在兒少、15到19歲這個部分，當時部長快速地說會帶回去討論，那我想確定一下目前進度為何。兒少就業權益包含他們可能是弱勢少年，因為年紀輕、經驗少，相對地，找到的工作可能薪資也不是太好，又可能遇到高風險的工作環境。在兒少法修法的時候，衛福部說可能會把相關的第三十四條到第三十六條刪除，當時勞動部也有一些自己的立場。還有，以行政院的角度或者勞動部的高度，怎麼樣更積極地協助這些兒少打工者或實習生，讓他們在相關工作場域的權益可以受到保障、他們的生命可以受到保護？"],["洪部長申翰：我們應該有把這些相關議題納入我們之前參與行政院召開的全國兒少政策研商會議裡面，我們的兒少職場安全衛生權益小組也放進來討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：OK，所以是院等級的討論會議？"],["洪部長申翰：行政院裡面是有一個相關研商會議，但是我們部裡在3月26日其實也召開了一場同樣是跨部會、關於兒少職場安全衛生權益小組的會議，我可以再把開會的狀況與相關資料提供給陳委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。時間有限，我之後再跟勞動部索資，了解如何在跟衛福部合作的平臺上協助這些兒少的事情。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席、謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長。","接下來請黃秀芳委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}},{"id":"160810","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160810","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423692770833b0650cca7693dd611367b4ddd98ab4b80bc74e67df356dd5f590e44185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"12:12:23 - 12:23:22","影片長度":"00:10:59","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查「保險法」15案：\n一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案。【後3案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第一百二十三條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:12:23+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:23:22+08:00","duration":659,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.329093750000002,"end":11.657843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.708468750000002,"end":12.704093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.129718750000002,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.85534375,"end":20.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.719718750000002,"end":21.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.609718750000003,"end":25.140968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.22534375,"end":26.777843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.27596875,"end":26.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.95909375,"end":29.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.76471875,"end":30.405968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.59159375,"end":31.266593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.009093750000005,"end":34.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.860968750000005,"end":36.767843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.290968750000005,"end":38.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.84346875,"end":39.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.19346875,"end":41.391593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.391593750000006,"end":41.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.471593750000004,"end":42.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.48846875,"end":45.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.96471875,"end":50.267843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.62221875,"end":63.852218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.210968750000006,"end":63.31221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.98721875000001,"end":68.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.84284375,"end":83.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.34284375,"end":91.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.00409375000001,"end":91.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.62846875000001,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.37909375000001,"end":97.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.93971875000001,"end":99.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.20096875,"end":100.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.06159375,"end":103.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.99784375,"end":104.52096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.24221875,"end":108.75659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.34721875000001,"end":114.37596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.23659375000001,"end":120.68721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.72096875000001,"end":128.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.86721875,"end":132.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.30971875,"end":135.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.63846875000002,"end":136.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.89971875,"end":138.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.19909375,"end":139.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.12721875,"end":145.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.35409375,"end":147.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.75471875000002,"end":159.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.41534375,"end":161.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.79034375,"end":170.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.04221875000002,"end":171.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.53159375,"end":172.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.18971875,"end":177.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.33221875,"end":178.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.31096875,"end":180.22221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.84221875,"end":184.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.96409375000002,"end":185.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.23409375,"end":200.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.40034375000002,"end":207.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.04471875000002,"end":209.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.97284375,"end":213.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.19159375,"end":232.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.83846875,"end":234.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.07846875,"end":237.12471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.95159375000003,"end":246.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.16534375,"end":258.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.56846875,"end":260.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.78346875,"end":266.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.43221875,"end":273.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.09784375000004,"end":277.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.23221875,"end":283.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.73346875000004,"end":284.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.40846875,"end":285.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.58096875,"end":290.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.39471875000004,"end":295.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.90034375000005,"end":297.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.22909375,"end":300.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.79409375,"end":302.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.47721875,"end":309.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.88971875000004,"end":311.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.64471875000004,"end":312.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.97784375000003,"end":314.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.76659375,"end":314.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.96909375,"end":315.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.08284375,"end":316.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.56784375,"end":329.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.86971875,"end":335.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.61971875,"end":337.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.56034375,"end":339.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.07909375,"end":341.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.47971875,"end":342.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.23471875,"end":344.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.53409375,"end":345.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.96846875,"end":346.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.74471875,"end":357.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.30409375000005,"end":359.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.34596875,"end":361.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.96159375,"end":363.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.61534375,"end":366.28596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.57284375,"end":367.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.96909375,"end":371.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.68596875000003,"end":372.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.99784375,"end":376.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.49096875000004,"end":379.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.92096875000004,"end":379.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.24159375000005,"end":383.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.11409375000005,"end":386.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.70471875000004,"end":387.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.83096875,"end":389.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.43409375000005,"end":394.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.82159375000003,"end":397.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.63534375,"end":401.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.48721875,"end":402.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.71471875000003,"end":408.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.99221875,"end":414.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.76784375000005,"end":426.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.77846875,"end":431.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.38971875000004,"end":433.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.22034375000004,"end":436.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.39721875000004,"end":439.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.40534375000004,"end":441.31221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.97034375000004,"end":445.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.02909375,"end":444.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.39159375,"end":448.58534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.42909375000005,"end":452.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.90096875,"end":459.03096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.41471875,"end":470.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.79284375000003,"end":475.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.78784375000004,"end":475.93971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.42909375000005,"end":477.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.66096875000005,"end":479.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.70284375000006,"end":480.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.64784375000005,"end":482.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.26784375000005,"end":482.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.68971875000005,"end":484.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.32221875000005,"end":486.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.38096875,"end":488.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.45659375,"end":492.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.27471875000003,"end":492.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.55721875,"end":502.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.09159375,"end":504.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.61034375,"end":505.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.25971875000005,"end":508.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.18346875000003,"end":510.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.39846875,"end":510.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":511.30971875000006,"end":514.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.36034375,"end":511.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.96784375000004,"end":512.1028437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.38096875,"end":517.5872187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.88659375,"end":519.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":520.13534375,"end":521.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.0590937500001,"end":526.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.8684687500001,"end":529.5009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.17596875,"end":535.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":537.01034375,"end":537.6853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.6640937500001,"end":540.0647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.25034375,"end":544.8234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":545.4309687500001,"end":554.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.31971875,"end":556.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":557.3784687500001,"end":560.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.05284375,"end":563.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.6684687500001,"end":566.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":567.58784375,"end":570.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.1484687500001,"end":573.9834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.31659375,"end":577.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":578.97846875,"end":580.1597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.76284375,"end":584.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":585.7622187500001,"end":586.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":587.07846875,"end":588.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.06971875,"end":589.6940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.06534375,"end":590.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":591.21284375,"end":592.5122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":593.2040937500001,"end":596.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.0178437500001,"end":599.6840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":600.74721875,"end":601.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":602.2490937499999,"end":603.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":604.79721875,"end":605.1515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":605.25284375,"end":610.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":610.85534375,"end":612.8972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.9097187500001,"end":615.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":615.68159375,"end":619.1072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.4953437500001,"end":622.5834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":623.41034375,"end":627.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":628.3884687500001,"end":631.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":631.7465937500001,"end":637.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":637.9734687499999,"end":638.1084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":638.5134687500001,"end":640.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.8928437500001,"end":643.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.0359687499999,"end":643.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":643.39034375,"end":643.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.4409687500001,"end":643.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.74471875,"end":647.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.75971875,"end":658.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.93221875,"end":659.1684687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.786,"end":12.028,"text":"謝謝主席我請那個彭主委請彭主委喂好彭主委108年那麼最高法院發了這個裁定就是說可以對於債務人那麼執行"},{"start":32.222,"end":46.1,"text":"並且要求這個授權契約終止 償付這個解約金那這個裁定之後我光是講2023年一年齁2023年1月到隔一年的9月"},{"start":50.782,"end":66.518,"text":"我們全國法院扣押保單的件數超過92萬8千件92萬8千件耶這造成法院極大的負荷而且也讓人心惶惶那壽險工會"},{"start":69.878,"end":96.996,"text":"以這個判決那麼他也接受法院來查詢保單過去法院查詢的保單大概一年比方說2022年才三千五百件到2024年光那一年啊就查詢了五十七萬三千件可以說這是不堪負荷啦那我必須先講一下當然欠債還錢這是天經地義"},{"start":100.299,"end":128.419,"text":"不過大家如果回想一下第一點我們國家的勞保一直到了民國77年喔民國77年之後才同意給中小企業微型企業的負責人來加保也就是說在民國77年之前啊如果你個人經營生意事業的"},{"start":130.324,"end":138.36,"text":"那不管多大多微小那你不能加保所以當時啊政府"},{"start":139.266,"end":160.417,"text":"跟保險公司都鼓勵大家說來買個保險保障你不管你以後成功失敗好歹你有一個基本的生存保險所以當時的承諾保險公司當時信誓旦旦說這些保險資料絕對"},{"start":162.847,"end":179.953,"text":"不會被徵詢到這個個資絕對不會外洩這是事實你可以回去查一查那結果在這樣子的誤導之下保險公司業績大好今天如果"},{"start":181.909,"end":207.145,"text":"去要保的人被保險人如果是惡性倒閉我跟你倆借了一千萬我這一千萬全部買保險借著你保險的這個機密不得外洩我把錢藏起來惡性倒閉那這就不對可是不是啊你看這麼龐大的數字裡面現在民怨這麼高裡面就是很多民眾"},{"start":210.888,"end":234.799,"text":"當時你銀行、金控公司包括租賃公司、融資公司你願意借給我你頂多你就是透過金融的徵詢、查詢那那些查詢不到這些保險啊你針對我的抵押品、我的信用我企業經營的良善與否我個人的character"},{"start":236.383,"end":258.216,"text":"品格那來做出這個授信的同意與否不是嗎跟這個保險無關嘛怎麼突然間過去你這樣徵詢我你同意借我啦現在我失敗了你從過去你沒徵詢到的你也沒評估在內的你叫他說這個也要拿出來賠"},{"start":259.659,"end":284.916,"text":"所以我覺得我覺得這要做適度的修正也就是說要橫憑債權債務他們之間資歷的差距所以我是打算這樣我提出的保險法123之1條的修正有三大我這裡面列的有三個大原則第一個原則就是說如果這個保險契約"},{"start":288.382,"end":305.006,"text":"這個金額債權金額沒有超過107條第二項的額度不得作為扣押強制執行的標定107條第二項就是這個針對金額我簡單講68萬5嘛那就是針對針對死亡失能也就是傷臟補助這個金額"},{"start":318.148,"end":345.463,"text":"那不是現在我們在討論的說台北七萬多金門五萬多鄉下地區三萬多一個基本生活不是那你要他怎樣七萬多花完叫他去跳樓嗎如果他已經退休七十歲了可以這樣嗎七萬多塊三個月半年了不起一年基本生活就花完了不是嗎"},{"start":346.829,"end":361.572,"text":"所以他製造另外一個社會問題 因為銀行 軍公公司 尤其是租賃公司這些是強勢 租賃公司還是虛高利貸血汗 他們也參與繳藉著最高法院的這個判決 他們也來參與繳"},{"start":369.048,"end":388.944,"text":"所以我認為要加入橫貧法則要提高要提高豁免額度六十八萬五我覺得這不為過這不為過 買服務棺材都要三十萬了不是嗎所以 那第二個原則我認為"},{"start":391.416,"end":408.266,"text":"這個藥保的債務人小兒中老保險小兒中老保險最高最高金額 理賠金額90萬而已啊90萬而已嘛不管你買幾張就是90萬那怕他什麼"},{"start":410.029,"end":433.62,"text":"不是嗎再來我加入一條就是說如果執行法院斟酌債務人債權人生活狀況跟其他形式有慎為有失公平的得扣押也就是說債權人其實有區分的債權人又強勢債權人就是我剛剛講的租賃公司銀行金扣"},{"start":435.393,"end":452.443,"text":"這些是強勢債權人那也有弱勢債權人弱勢債權人比方說被害人被車子撞到被你撞人撞傷撞人殘廢撞死比方說圍觀大樓倒塌那些都是弱勢的債權人那被受到傷害的弱勢債權人當然"},{"start":460.458,"end":484.236,"text":"他們就可以來執行就可以根據我所謂的123條之一這個衡平條款就是說如果以法院來斟酌認為有必須的也就是弱勢在權人我們要保障他我們要保障他那這樣就公平啦那那個主委你知道嗎我剛剛在講強勢弱勢齁到現在為止喔到現在為止"},{"start":489.822,"end":517.425,"text":"現在來執行這些保單的銀行 租賃公司 資產管理公司佔了整個按量的百分之九十欸九成啊被這些強勢的其實是他們來搞的真的弱勢的 我剛剛跟你講車禍啦建商蓋得不好倒掉這種弱勢的債券只佔百分之十不到"},{"start":518.922,"end":537.247,"text":"那這個條款當初最高法院人家他的裁定他並不是要造成社會有這樣的紛擾我們國家所有的法律所有的法院都應該為人民服務不是嗎"},{"start":538.737,"end":563.029,"text":"怎麼可以任由那些 清空公司他賺錢我們社會沒有人忌妒他但是 所有清空公司都賺不是幾十億耶現在每年都賺上百億之多他還來鉅於這一點來鉅於早年 現在很多退休的他當初買一個保險 為了他中老"},{"start":564.947,"end":576.413,"text":"現在我們在討論這個說 啊 五萬 三萬最高台北市七萬 豁免他七萬 請問七萬元那一個退休老人他可以 中養幾個月那七萬都用完了 你叫他跳樓嗎所以我認為 這張保單"},{"start":589.13,"end":612.436,"text":"可能是這個終其一生為國家社會盡他的力量效命的微型企業主小型企業主個體戶他一輩子他奮鬥的目標就剩了一點只為了生存而已所以我認為啊是不是123之1"},{"start":613.919,"end":621.784,"text":"我希望能夠朝我講的就是我們納入橫頻條款那我們對小兒中老保險不多不管你幾張總金額才90萬元我們有必要這樣子苛刻為國家社會效命我們的老人家們有必要對他們這樣子"},{"start":638.587,"end":647.27,"text":"千刀萬里追嗎好不好好好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝世堅委員接著請林思明委員質詢謝謝召委請彭主委好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1043,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（12時12分）謝謝主席。請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：彭主委，108年最高法院裁定……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，大法庭。"],["王委員世堅：得以對債務人執行並要求壽險契約終止，償付解約金。這個裁定之後，光2023年一年，從2023年1月到隔年9月，全國法院扣押保單的件數超過92萬8,000件，92萬8,000件耶！造成法院極大負荷，也讓人心惶惶。在這個判決後，壽險公會也接受法院來查詢保單，過去法院查詢的保單一年大概……比方2022年才3,500件，到了2024年，光那一年就查詢了57萬3,000件，真的不堪負荷。我必須先講，欠債還錢天經地義，不過大家可以回想一下，第一點，我們國家的勞保一直到民國77年之後，才同意給中小企業、微型企業的負責人加保。也就是說，在民國77年之前，個人經營生意事業者，不管多大、多微小都不能加保。所以當時政府跟保險公司都鼓勵大家買個保險保障，不管你以後成功、失敗，好歹你有一個基本的生存保險，保險公司當時信誓旦旦的承諾保險資料絕對不會被徵詢、個資絕對不會外洩，這是事實，你可以回去查一查，結果在這樣子的誤導之下，保險公司業績大好。今天如果要保人、被保險人是惡性倒閉，我跟銀行借1,000萬，這1,000萬全部買保險，藉著你保險的機密不得外洩，我把錢藏起來惡性倒閉這就不對，可是不是啊！你看這麼龐大的數字，現在民怨這麼高，就是很多民眾，當時銀行、金控公司，包括租賃公司、融資公司願意借給我，頂多是透過金融的徵詢、查詢，這些查詢查不到保險，你是針對我的抵押品、我的信用、我企業經營的良善與否、我個人的品格來做出授信的同意與否，不是嗎？跟保險無關。怎麼突然間，過去你這樣徵詢我，你同意借我，結果現在我失敗了，你卻連過去沒徵詢到也沒評估在內的也叫我要拿出來賠，我覺得這要做適度地修正，也就是要衡平債權、債務之間資力的差距。所以我是打算這樣，我提出的保險法第一百二十三條之一的修正，有三個大原則，第一個原則，如果保險契約債權金額沒有超過第一百零七條第二項的額度，不得作為扣押強制執行的標的。第一百零七條第二項，我簡單講金額是68萬5,000元，是針對死亡、失能，也就是喪葬補助金額，這個不是現在在討論臺北七萬多、金門五萬多、鄉下地區三萬多可維持一個基本生活，不是！你要他怎樣？七萬多花完叫他去跳樓嗎？如果他已經退休、70歲了，可以這樣嗎？七萬多塊，可能3個月、半年，了不起一年基本生活就花完了，不是嗎？所以這製造另外一個社會問題，因為銀行、金控公司，尤其租賃公司這些是強勢，租賃公司還是高利貸吸血汗，藉著最高法院的判決他們也來參一腳，所以我認為要加入衡平法則、要提高豁免額度，我覺得68萬5,000元這不為過，買一副棺材都要30萬，不是嗎？","第二個原則，我認為要保的債務人小額終老保險，小額終老保險最高、最高理賠金額90萬而已，不管你買幾張就是90萬！那怕他什麼？不是嗎？再來，我加入一條，如果執行法院斟酌債務人、債權人生活狀況跟其他形式認為有失公平者，得扣押。也就是債權人其實有區分，債權人有強勢債權人，就是我剛剛講的租賃公司、銀行、金控，這些是強勢債權人；也有弱勢債權人，比方說被害人被車子撞到，被撞成重傷、撞成殘廢、撞死，比方說維冠大樓倒塌，那些都是弱勢債權人，受到傷害的弱勢債權人當然就可以根據我所謂的第一百二十三條之一衡平條款，就是如果法院斟酌認為有必須，也就是我們要保障弱勢債權人，這樣就公平。主委你知道嗎？我剛剛在講強勢、弱勢，其實到現在為止來執行保單的，銀行、租賃公司、資產管理公司就占了整個案量的九成，所以是這些強勢債權人來搞的，真的弱勢的，我剛剛跟你講的車禍、建商蓋不好倒掉的這種弱勢債權人只占不到百分之十。這個條款當初最高法院的裁定並不是要造成社會的紛擾，我們國家所有的法律、所有的法院都應該為人民服務！不是嗎？金控公司賺錢，我們社會沒有人嫉妒他，但是所有金控公司不是賺幾十億，是每年都賺上百億之多，他們還來覬覦這一點，來凱覦早年這些退休的人當初為了終老買的保險，現在在討論5萬、3萬，最高臺北市豁免他7萬，請問7萬元可以讓一個退休老人終養幾個月？7萬用完你叫他跳樓嗎？我認為這張保單可能是這個終其一生為他的國家、社會盡他的力量效命的微型企業、小型企業主、個體戶，他一輩子奮鬥的目標就剩那一點，只為了生存而已，所以第一百二十三條之一我希望能夠朝我講的納入衡平條款，對小額終老保險，不多！不管你幾張，總金額才90萬元，我們有必要這樣子苛刻為國家、社會效命的老人家們，有必要對他們這樣子千刀萬里追嗎？好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好。"],["王委員世堅：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝世堅委員。","接著請林思銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","黃珊珊","羅智強","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","黃國昌","陳玉珍","王世堅","林思銘","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","徐富癸","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「保險法」15案：一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員\n王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人\n分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案；二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第\n一百二十三條之一條文草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等\n19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百\n七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案","agenda_id":"1144301_00006"}}},{"id":"160809","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160809","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369632f0e48adbc7d253c0ba1d923b4b8db98ab4b80bc74e67d004cc94ee87db5845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:13:29 - 12:20:17","影片長度":"00:06:48","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:13:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:20:17+08:00","duration":408,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.970968750000001,"end":6.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.34596875,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.016593750000002,"end":11.117843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.117843750000002,"end":11.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.20221875,"end":11.219093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.219093750000003,"end":11.539718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.539718750000002,"end":11.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.49221875,"end":29.258468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.64659375,"end":58.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.82346875,"end":61.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.04659375000001,"end":62.924093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.210968750000006,"end":73.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.52159375000001,"end":75.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.51284375,"end":80.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.98034375,"end":83.02221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.49471875,"end":87.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.73034375,"end":100.28534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.58909375,"end":104.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.63909375,"end":105.53346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.53346875000001,"end":105.55034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.69784375,"end":107.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.96346875,"end":110.14034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.25846875,"end":111.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.84471875000001,"end":112.48596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.55346875000001,"end":114.78096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.96659375,"end":115.86096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.96221875,"end":117.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.05909375,"end":117.10971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.10971875000001,"end":117.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.14346875000001,"end":117.17721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.17721875000001,"end":117.36284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.36284375000001,"end":122.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.14284375000001,"end":124.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.93534375,"end":126.82971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.50471875000001,"end":127.74096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.17971875,"end":128.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.60159375,"end":130.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.18784375,"end":130.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.98096875000002,"end":131.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.67284375,"end":133.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.57971875,"end":136.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.38096875000002,"end":142.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.74721875,"end":147.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.77596875,"end":148.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.65346875,"end":153.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.84659375,"end":166.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.62534375,"end":166.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.08096875,"end":168.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.49409375000002,"end":174.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.40534375000001,"end":170.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.43471875,"end":171.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.68721875,"end":176.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.66159375,"end":180.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.88034375,"end":185.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.31409375,"end":195.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.76409375,"end":208.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.76659375000003,"end":207.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.84221875,"end":214.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.57971875,"end":222.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.76409375,"end":230.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.59409375,"end":235.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.72409375,"end":237.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.76596875,"end":242.27159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.52471875,"end":243.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.11096875,"end":246.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.01346875000002,"end":247.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.89096875,"end":250.21971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.32096875000002,"end":262.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.78721875,"end":263.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.80409375,"end":268.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.93409375000005,"end":269.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.31784375,"end":281.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.62846875,"end":283.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.19784375,"end":285.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.79221875,"end":297.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.03096875,"end":297.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.60471875,"end":297.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.65534375000004,"end":307.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.88159375000004,"end":317.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.90596875,"end":318.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.02346875,"end":323.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.03096875,"end":324.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.06471875,"end":327.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.75659375000004,"end":326.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.20784375,"end":332.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.75971875000005,"end":338.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.48096875000005,"end":334.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.94846875,"end":340.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.12534375,"end":345.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.30596875000003,"end":349.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.69784375,"end":359.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.73159375,"end":350.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.85659375,"end":360.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.44721875000005,"end":370.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.29784375,"end":377.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.94659375000003,"end":379.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.95471875000004,"end":390.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.80971875,"end":392.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.19346875,"end":400.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.25596875,"end":397.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.67284375,"end":404.69346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.545,"end":11.432,"text":"请农业部长谢谢陈部长"},{"start":19.187,"end":44.666,"text":"不然針對動保法我這邊有新增14條之三用意是修法的目的是希望能夠把民間的動物的收容數那一定規模的一些飼養戶希望能夠納管取得地方政府的登記或許可避免不當大量飼養動物的行為這個在你們回應裡面都是這樣子寫說利益良善"},{"start":45.226,"end":61.347,"text":"但後面這段我就不是太認同你們說但是因為這些收容所樣態複雜而且土地利用正義可能是說他可能在一些違法的土地使用上面做這個收容所所以啊因為納管的話很多會違法倒閉"},{"start":62.228,"end":86.501,"text":"會造成問題所以就覺得不贊成這樣的立法那我其實對於農業部這樣的回應我是非常保留的態度啦以前也有很多未立案的工廠他也是會有土地利用的問題比如說在農地上面或在哪裡上面但是當時經濟部也有訂定未立案工廠的相關的管理辦法然後透過地方政府去輔導他們合法"},{"start":87.953,"end":105.391,"text":"過去都可以對於衛利案的工廠可以這樣做為什麼現在對於如果有收養大量飼養戶的這些民間動物送貨所卻因為可能管理很麻煩然後會導致他們可能會土地利用問題所以就不管了這個差別在哪"},{"start":106.878,"end":126.359,"text":"我剛才看了我們部裡面同仁回應的這個第二條的部分我也覺得不恰當啦你也覺得不恰當我也覺得不恰當啦因為相關的違法就是違法那不能說違法太多了以後沒辦法管的時候所以你這邊交給立法院的報告部長本人沒看過喔那你怎麼來備詢不是"},{"start":128.22,"end":153.152,"text":"他整個的部分就是相關的他們基本上我這個其實在會前有跟他們討論過因為那時候已經印了 列印了所以我在這一次的簡報上面我就沒有寫這一個那對於這個所以部長你對於你自己交出來這個報告你不認同這也太奇怪了是吧那沒關係我不為難你啦所以如果是由你來撰寫的話你會怎麼回答"},{"start":153.885,"end":166.172,"text":"我想基本上我們會根據他的情節特別他飼養的這些寵物本身的危險性用這樣的一個動物的分類的概念去處理這樣的一個意義所以還是會納款"},{"start":168.91,"end":188.706,"text":"我是希望是納管的大原則還是會納管只是他們在寫這個理由的時候我是覺得文詞不是很強的他這邊就說沒有要納管啊他說建議還是由地方政府以符合動物福祉的飼養方式輔導啊就沒有要納管的意思啊但是部長你現在意思是說你自己是支持就對了"},{"start":189.597,"end":213.791,"text":"我基本上是支持這樣的一種看法好 謝謝那接下來因為在總質詢的時候我們有問到川普希望能夠台灣取消一些非關稅的貿易障礙其中他對於我們的豬肉標示原產地一直很有意見這是美國啦美國一直很有意見那我記得部長你在總質詢的時候你回答說這個不是政府要求的這是"},{"start":215.252,"end":232.829,"text":"民間自發性的行為那我印象當中就不是這樣所以特別去把當時的一些新聞找出來你看這是那時候中央社報導第二行就很明確的寫得很清楚說政府要求業者必須標示產地然後衛福部跟農委會當時是農委會現在是農業部當時還各自推出標章"},{"start":238.593,"end":261.826,"text":"衛福部有自己的台灣做標章農委會也有台灣做標章所以還造成了一個標章之亂在那個時候所以明明就是農業部衛福部要求的啊然後前農委會主委陳吉仲那個時候在新聞版面上面大幅的出現拿這個標章來做宣導啊怎麼會現在忽然變成說這個東西跟政府無關這個東西是業者的自發性行為"},{"start":264.057,"end":285.258,"text":"我要跟委員報告我們當初設計的台灣豬的標章它在法上面我們是鼓勵我們台灣用台灣豬的商店去貼這個標章所以貼這個標章是屬於自願性的不是強制性的你自己看這中央社國家通訊社我還沒有講完但是整個的"},{"start":286.219,"end":305.572,"text":"豬的標示的部分是衛福部那衛福部他有他的一個豬及豬可食部位的一個標示追溯的管理辦法在那個辦法裡面是規定是強制的我覺得你這種講法就有點甩鍋了那個時候誰不知道說是農業部衛福部一直要求大家店家要去貼這個台灣豬標章"},{"start":306.553,"end":323.435,"text":"就現在面臨到那個關稅談判的時候忽然又講說那根本沒關係喔如果有貼的話那個是業者的自發性行為喔不貼也沒關係喔我們一定鼓勵貼的你現在的態度就是不貼也沒關係嘛不是 我們是鼓...我們是一向是鼓勵那你...那你有沒有鼓...那我問一下政府現在的態度還有沒有鼓勵"},{"start":324.296,"end":340.424,"text":"業者貼農業部現在有沒有鼓勵大家貼還是鼓勵我們還是鼓勵說他本身是使用台灣豬很好你們還是鼓勵嘛我們還是鼓勵好謝謝那如果今天美國說不好意思農業部你不能再鼓勵了衛福部你也不能再鼓勵了"},{"start":341.204,"end":369.307,"text":"最好這個標章是越少越好那農業部可以堅持說為了我們的食安或者是為了我們的農業你還是持續鼓勵大家一定要貼這個台灣豬標章嗎我相信我們的鼓勵是不會被挑戰的啦因為所有的鼓勵是業者的願意接受我們的鼓勵去貼的那是自發性的行為所以你是很多東西你都說鼓勵啦譬如說以前蛋價啊你們都會講說你們建議業者啊或者是你們沒有干預啊但實際上農業部有講話誰不會做"},{"start":371.328,"end":399.88,"text":"我覺得實務就不是這樣嘛沒有關係部長你剛剛已經承諾了啦因為我們現在就是怕說在關稅談判的時候會影響到我們一些食安的把關嘛那部長你剛剛已經講過你們還是會持續鼓勵我們的業者貼台灣做標章我覺得這樣就夠了啦這樣就夠了啦對這樣就夠了啦保護我們的農業嘛保護我們的食安嘛這是政府應該有態度啦不是說美國要幹嘛就幹嘛對我們農業部的職責啊好 謝謝"},{"start":401.493,"end":404.499,"text":"好 谢谢我们现在请蔡议员做询答"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":995,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時13分）請農業部長，謝謝。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。針對動保法，我這邊有新增第十四條之三，修法的目的是希望能夠把民間的動物收容所、一定規模的一些飼養戶納管，取得地方政府的登記或許可，避免不當大量飼養動物的行為。在你們的回應裡面都是寫立意良善，但是後面這一段我就不太認同，你們說因為這些收容所樣態複雜，而且土地利用爭議，可能是說它可能在一些違法土地使用上做這個收容所，因為納管的話，很多會違法倒閉，會造成問題，所以就覺得不贊成這樣的立法。我其實對於農業部這樣回應持非常保留的態度，以前也有很多未立案的工廠，它也是會有土地利用的問題，比如說在農地上面或在哪裡上面，但是當時經濟部也有訂定未立案工廠的相關管理辦法，透過地方政府去輔導它們合法，過去對於未立案的工廠都可以這樣做，為什麼現在對於有大量收養的飼養戶、民間動物收容所，卻可能因為管理很麻煩，導致它們土地利用會有問題，所以就不管了，這個差別在哪？"],["陳部長駿季：我剛剛看了我們部裡面同仁回應這一條的部分，我也覺得不恰當……"],["葉委員元之：你也覺得不恰當？"],["陳部長駿季：我也覺得不恰當，因為違法就是違法，不能因為違法太多了以後，在沒辦法管的時候，就……"],["葉委員元之：所以你們交給立法院的這份報告，部長本人沒看過？那你怎麼來備詢？"],["陳部長駿季：基本上，這個報告內容我其實在會前有跟同仁討論過，因為那時候已經列印了，所以我在這一次的簡報上就沒有寫這個部分。"],["葉委員元之：所以部長，你對於自己交出來的這份報告也不認同，這也太奇怪了。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我……"],["葉委員元之：那沒關係，我不為難你，所以如果是由你來撰寫的話，你會怎麼回答？"],["陳部長駿季：我想基本上我們會根據它的情節，特別是飼養寵物本身的危險性，用動物分類的概念去處理這樣的議題。"],["葉委員元之：所以還是會納管？"],["陳部長駿季：我希望是納管的。"],["葉委員元之：你希望納管。"],["陳部長駿季：大原則還是會納管，只是同仁在寫這個理由的時候，我是覺得文字不是那麼的恰當。"],["葉委員元之：報告這邊就說沒有要納管啊！他說：建議還是由地方政府以符合動物福祉的飼養方式輔導。沒有要納管的意思，但是部長，現在意思是說你自己是支持就對了？"],["陳部長駿季：我基本上是支持這樣的看法。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。接下來，因為在總質詢的時候我們有問到，川普希望臺灣能夠取消一些非關稅貿易障礙，其中對於我們的豬肉標示原產地，美國一直很有意見。我記得部長在總質詢的時候回答說：這個不是政府要求的，這是民間自發性的行為。我印象當中就不是這樣，所以特別去把當時的一些新聞找出來，你看這是那時候中央社的報導，第二行明確地寫得很清楚說：政府要求業者必須標示產地。衛福部跟農委會，當時是農委會，現在是農業部，當時還各自推出標章，衛福部有自己的「台灣豬貼紙」；農委會也有「臺灣豬標章」，所以那個時候還造成標章之亂，所以明明就是農業部、衛福部要求的，那個時候前農委會陳吉仲主委在新聞版面上大幅的出現，拿這個標章在做宣導，現在怎麼忽然變成說豬肉標示跟政府無關，是業者自發性行為？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我們當初設計的臺灣豬標章，在法上面是鼓勵使用臺灣豬肉的商店去貼這個標章，所以貼這個標章是屬於自願性的，不是強制性的。"],["葉委員元之：你自己看這是中央通訊社喔！"],["陳部長駿季：我還沒有講完，但是整個豬的標示部分是衛福部規定，它訂有相關豬肉及豬可食部位原料之原產地標示規定，在那個辦法裡面規定是強制的。"],["葉委員元之：部長，我覺得你這種講法就有點甩鍋了，那個時候誰不知道是農業部、衛福部一直要求店家要去貼臺灣豬標章，現在面臨到要關稅談判的時候，忽然又講說跟我們沒關係喔！如果有貼的話，是業者自發性行為；不貼也沒關係，你現在的態度就是不貼也沒關係嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我們一向是鼓勵用臺灣豬……"],["葉委員元之：那我問一下，政府現在的態度還有沒有鼓勵業者貼？農業部現在有沒有鼓勵大家貼？"],["陳部長駿季：我們還是鼓勵它本身是使用臺灣豬要標示……"],["葉委員元之：很好，你們還是鼓勵嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我們還是鼓勵。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。如果今天美國說，不好意思，農業部不能再鼓勵了、衛福部也不能再鼓勵了，最好這個標章是越少越好。那農業部可以堅持說：為了我們的食安或為了我們農業發展，你還是持續鼓勵大家一定要貼臺灣豬的標章嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我相信我們的鼓勵是不會被挑戰的，因為所有的鼓勵是業者願意接受而去貼的，那是自發性的行為。"],["葉委員元之：雖然很多東西你都說鼓勵啦！譬如以前的蛋價，你們都會講說只是建議業者或你們沒有干預，但實際上農業部有講話誰會不做，我覺得實務就不是這樣嘛！沒有關係，部長，你剛剛已經承諾了，因為現在就是怕在關稅談判的時候，會影響到我們一些食安的把關，部長你剛剛已經講，你們還是會持續鼓勵我們的業者貼臺灣豬標章，我覺得這樣就夠了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們是針對國內的部分。"],["葉委員元之：保護我們的農業、保護我們的食安，這是政府應該有態度，不是美國要幹嘛就幹嘛，好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這是農業部的職責。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請蔡易餘委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","葉元之","蔡易餘","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","邱議瑩","張雅琳","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員呂玉\n玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員劉建國等 16 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案；七、本\n院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」\n案；八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員李坤城等\n22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案；十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十四、本院委員郭昱晴\n等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護\n法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保\n護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案；十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動\n物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正\n草案」案；十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案；二\n十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二十一、本院委\n員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬\n具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案；二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五\n條之二條文修正草案」案；二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等 17 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17 人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案\n（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144501_00004"}}},{"id":"160808","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160808","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423691582264c9260ff538b6df88a6e7dffca98ab4b80bc74e67dcd63afc3e7d0c2bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:06:37 - 12:18:11","影片長度":"00:11:34","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場(廠)墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:06:37+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:18:11+08:00","duration":694,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.800968750000003,"end":16.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.68159375,"end":22.187843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.200343750000002,"end":23.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.11971875,"end":27.469718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.81971875,"end":31.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.09346875,"end":34.017218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.19409375,"end":37.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.86471875,"end":38.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.720968750000004,"end":41.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.408468750000004,"end":41.914718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.040968750000005,"end":49.845968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.74909375,"end":51.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.07784375,"end":57.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.12346875,"end":64.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.148468750000006,"end":59.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.48909375000001,"end":65.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.40034375,"end":68.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.34096875,"end":73.28534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.47159375000001,"end":71.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.72409375000001,"end":75.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.12034375,"end":77.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.06096875,"end":79.79909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.28846875,"end":82.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.88721875,"end":87.02159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.59534375000001,"end":88.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.87784375000001,"end":90.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.34159375,"end":93.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.92346875000001,"end":94.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.25659375000001,"end":99.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.26471875,"end":100.28534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.04471875,"end":107.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.19659375,"end":105.58409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.24221875,"end":109.95471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.94221875000001,"end":115.08471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.31284375000001,"end":115.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.19846875,"end":118.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.64971875,"end":119.06721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.84346875000001,"end":121.14284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.39596875000001,"end":125.32784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.74971875000001,"end":129.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.78284375,"end":133.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.44471875000002,"end":136.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.02221875,"end":145.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.67909375000002,"end":151.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.80471875,"end":157.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.45346875,"end":172.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.62409375000001,"end":177.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.64034375,"end":180.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.79596875000001,"end":184.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.26784375000003,"end":189.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.09409375,"end":196.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.33346875,"end":219.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.55784375000002,"end":223.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.65846875000003,"end":224.92409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.92409375000003,"end":225.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.64971875,"end":225.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.97034375,"end":225.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.18971875000003,"end":248.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.68409375000002,"end":252.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.95346875,"end":261.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.18409375000005,"end":271.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.78596875,"end":276.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.22409375,"end":277.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.29971875,"end":278.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.34596875,"end":280.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.56096875000003,"end":285.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.77534375,"end":294.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.56721875,"end":314.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.01971875000004,"end":320.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.11159375,"end":330.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.23659375,"end":356.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.05534375,"end":368.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.39534375000005,"end":368.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.91409375,"end":370.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.50034375,"end":372.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.15409375,"end":387.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.73409375,"end":397.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.02034375000005,"end":395.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.01971875000004,"end":409.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.31284375,"end":420.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.51534375,"end":412.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.11284375,"end":441.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.24034375,"end":442.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.81409375000004,"end":449.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.76659375,"end":458.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.43659375000004,"end":469.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.37534375,"end":486.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.44284375,"end":471.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.12784375,"end":496.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.64659375,"end":489.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.94096875,"end":497.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.62409375000004,"end":498.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.00784375,"end":510.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.88784375000006,"end":514.4822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.5790937500001,"end":521.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.3628437500001,"end":526.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.05846875,"end":563.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.05659375,"end":539.3728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.68909375,"end":541.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.48284375,"end":565.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.2378437500001,"end":572.5659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.8359687500001,"end":573.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.7978437500001,"end":574.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.01721875,"end":577.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.86096875,"end":575.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.1940937500001,"end":601.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.2578437500001,"end":611.2097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.31534375,"end":610.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.6653437500001,"end":614.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.57221875,"end":662.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.6140937499999,"end":616.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.6953437500001,"end":666.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.8972187500001,"end":673.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":673.74846875,"end":679.7390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.5915937500001,"end":685.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.5947187500001,"end":687.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":689.62784375,"end":691.2478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.8047187500001,"end":695.1965937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":14.063,"end":16.145,"text":"謝主席有請部長有請部長部長好我要請教你一下我們勞動部的霸凌案是不是我們前部長抱歉下台才逮捕你當勞動部長對嗎"},{"start":45.083,"end":63.942,"text":"呃 我的 我到老公公 到老公公是不是這樣子的行政院邀請我到老公公做部長的關鍵所以我們王一川立委才有這個機會就遞補立委這樣是不是事實是嗎"},{"start":68.652,"end":89.197,"text":"這個是事實嘛所以我們為勞工的權利當一個媽媽孩子往生了的痛你能感受得到嗎但是呢到現在他又收到一個冷冰冰的不起訴書這樣子的痛我們當媽媽的人"},{"start":91.4,"end":115.177,"text":"有這種痛求助無門你有感受得到嗎還有現在我們待會我跟妳說明我現在是說時間的關係然後後面等下再讓你去回答但是不起訴這是司法是減掉的部分所以我們就是說你的態度是如何我的態度人大認為這是霸凌啊人大認為這是霸凌啊"},{"start":119.878,"end":136.23,"text":"我現在在問你的我國公安意外的現在就是平船但是呢今年上半年還未完成已經發生多起的像台中的火力發電廠施工"},{"start":137.111,"end":157.081,"text":"工人高度的衰落 還有雲林管縣修查人員兩個人也是中毒不治台大醫院外牆的鷹架也倒塌等等根據勞動部統計在2024年因為重大職災死亡人數"},{"start":158.302,"end":160.303,"text":"287人也是因為平均1.25天就有一個勞工死亡這都是人命不是數據其中重大的職災"},{"start":173.686,"end":195.988,"text":"列有就是只在列中有就是一直高風險的營造業居高不下的就是7年大家都要問你的我們勞動部職安署的設定希望墜落死亡人數低於68人以下但是光半年"},{"start":197.412,"end":224.365,"text":"上半年的墜落死亡就高達了40人當時的判斷數據就是難以如願降低那請教部長勞動部在七年的下半年當初有做出內部檢討或者階段性的改善還有精進的作為下半年的檢討後的成效又如何都是人命當然對"},{"start":227.067,"end":252.062,"text":"跟委員說明我們當然做出檢討我們也做出會精進改善的作為這裡面包括修法的計畫也包括跨部會的合作那也包括我們會把一些高風險的這些廠廠然後列為重點會去勞檢跟稽查的對象我們其實有列了一系列相關的改進的作為就是不希望再發生這個類似的這些重大治安事件"},{"start":253.078,"end":277.72,"text":"是啊但是我們沒有看到成效如何我不是說勇敢我們有做就是要檢討但是到我們去年就是有總共就有83案就是營造業的墜落死亡每一個數據代表的是一個家庭一個家庭的生命背後更有一個就是"},{"start":279.381,"end":293.852,"text":"一個人 則有一家人所以這個是我們整個家庭的痛就是顯然我們勞動部的設定就是營造業的最落把擊年 但是呢我們的政策"},{"start":294.652,"end":318.748,"text":"都是口號 我們沒有看到的效果所以我們希望針對這個部長是不是有具體不是只是疫情降低的數據而已實施的跨部會的效果在哪裡因為我們是看到的就是相比說英國 新加坡 日本營造業"},{"start":321.498,"end":338.172,"text":"墜落死亡为40%南韩约57%但是我们国家高达60到70%大部分的建筑工程劳工 电梯警或者是施工的价等等"},{"start":338.872,"end":356.279,"text":"所以造成的所以我们要如何预防这些要怎么样说落差那么大我们是不是有去拿别人的我们来检讨我们怎么去落实怎么去发布会我们要的是实际有帮助"},{"start":357.139,"end":385.267,"text":"不是是檢討在檢討這個是被公安慰的話我們人民勞工不想要停要的是實際有效的我跟委員說明該檢討部分我們當然正在檢討但是我也不同意要說都是口號並不是其實是這個逐年是有一些改善可是改善的幅度可能不符合大家原本的期待"},{"start":386.047,"end":409.027,"text":"可是也並不是什麼都沒有做所以你們做了你們覺得的效果在哪裡嗎有做的效果在哪裡我覺得我們有加強的空間我們有加強的空間所以我們也是覺得有加強的空間在制度面法制面所以我們才提出修法的草案跟計畫這也是一個具體的我們希望能夠改善的行動"},{"start":410.362,"end":412.504,"text":"我們看到的是說我們現行的建築法還有職業安全衛生法都有有停工的規定但是呢我們看到裡面沒有就是說定期還有通常改善後的復工查"},{"start":432.386,"end":450.891,"text":"就是我們大包小包中包都無法去落實所以說我們希望說參考有沒有研議重大的違規或者重大公安意外有沒有增加一個期限不是說他們送計畫過來報告檢討你們就會給他們復工"},{"start":455.492,"end":469.578,"text":"根本說明我們現在也在檢討停復工的一些條件包括如果要復工的話重大的這個職安或者公安事件發生的話我們會要求要系統性的風險都改善才會復工"},{"start":471.999,"end":496.396,"text":"他可能不是一個固定的期限說兩個禮拜還是一個月可能不是這樣而是他要把這些系統性的風險都做出具體的改善作為才能夠復工他可能時間是比一個月更長的所以說你們沒有要求說重大的就會說時間或者說他們提出來也要提出來嘛"},{"start":499.536,"end":513.07,"text":"遠東新司機的這個化纖廠的事件裡面停工了以後我們現在要求他要系統性的改善他的風險他的停工時間現在已經兩個多月了所以並不是我只是畫一條線說你是要兩個禮拜還是一個月"},{"start":515.632,"end":525.64,"text":"就可以讓他復工並不是這樣子的是看他的系統性的風險能不能夠真的被克服跟管理我們希望能夠把復工的條件能夠更加強落實到這邊很好我們要的就是實際的作業或者是有效的你要來報告不是我們不希望說只要是檢討我們在檢討或者是寫計畫這是我們現在正在做的"},{"start":539.932,"end":551.636,"text":"有效的對大家有幫助的還有剛才有很多人問我也是很關心這一塊目前我們多少移工來做營造業還有我們在那麼危險的工作我們本級的訓練就不足了但是我們移工的訓練又如何"},{"start":566.771,"end":591.124,"text":"這個危險還有說用什麼方式還有用什麼語言效果如何有嗎這個是不是可以具體給我我們確實現在是希望移工都進場的移工都能有職安卡那職安卡目前其實有設定多國語言但委員說的沒有錯移工相關的安全訓練他會涉及到他會多了一個語言的挑戰這部分我認為我們是要跟"},{"start":591.704,"end":610.75,"text":"大的落實讓這個不同語言都能夠讓移工可以得到相關的安全安全相關的訊息的部分我們需要做的更透徹但是現在有嗎我們已經開放這樣子的營造業有移工這個安全的措施這個方法有嗎還是完全沒有還是怎麼樣"},{"start":611.91,"end":616.935,"text":"我們可以把相關的資料再提供給你們相關的提供給我就是關於這樣子的訓練過程還有說我們希望我們的勞動部跟其他部會真的是應該就是說正式制度面還有就是執行面雙重的施淩這個狀況我們要用政策不能只是口號啦設定的就是數據"},{"start":637.912,"end":661.417,"text":"幫助目標就為了這件事情還要檢討報告這不是意外發生後就是紙上談兵 紙上的作業但我們勞工的命不是一個數字或者在紙上寫而已我們希望的就是勞動部真的動起來跟各個部會因為不管是我們本級的勞工或者外級勞工"},{"start":662.757,"end":687.482,"text":"每一個勞工都是媽媽心目中的寶貝這個生命是很可貴的所以希望你要重視這件事情不要去招搖這樣更對不起勞工我們沒有招搖那我們也是用這個非常審慎的心態在看待這件事情的但我覺得不要隨便說我們招搖好 謝謝部長"},{"start":692.112,"end":693.515,"text":"部長不會招搖也不會招搖"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":798,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（12時6分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好。我要請教你一下，我們勞動部的霸凌案，是不是前部長道歉下臺才遞補你當勞動部長，對嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我到勞動部……"],["麥委員玉珍：對嗎？你是不是這樣子的……"],["洪部長申翰：行政院邀請我到勞動部做部長的工作……"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊！所以我們……"],["洪部長申翰：當然是跟這個事件有關係。"],["麥委員玉珍：王義川立委才有這個機會遞補立委，這是不是事實？是嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：委員……"],["麥委員玉珍：這是事實嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：這個事件是一個讓人……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們捍衛勞工的權利，一個媽媽的孩子往生的痛，你能感受得到嗎？但是到現在他又收到一個冷冰冰的不起訴書，這樣子的痛，我們當媽媽的人，有這種痛卻求助無門，你有感受得到嗎？現在我們……"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，我跟你說明……"],["麥委員玉珍：我現在是說時間的關係……"],["洪部長申翰：就勞動部的調查，我們是認定有霸凌……"],["麥委員玉珍：後面等一下再讓你來回答，好嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：但是不起訴，這是司法、是檢調的部分。"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯，所以我們就是說你的態度是如何？"],["洪部長申翰：我的態度，我們當然認為這是霸凌啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：因為你說要嚴查嘛，我現在要問你的是，我國工安意外頻傳，但是今年上半年還未過完，已經發生多起像台中火力發電廠施工工人高處摔落，還有雲林管線修查人員，兩個人也是中毒不治，以及臺大醫院外牆鷹架倒塌等等。根據勞動部統計，2024年因重大職災死亡人數達287人，也就是平均每1.25天就有1名勞工死亡，這都是人命耶，不是數據喔！其中重大的職災，就是高風險營造業的死亡數居高不下，就是去年，這個是大家都要問你的，而我們勞動部職安署的設定是希望墜落死亡人數低於68人以下，但是光上半年墜落死亡的就高達40人，難以如願照當時研判的數據降低嘛！那麼請教部長，勞動部在去年下半年當時是否做出內部檢討或者階段性改善、精進作為？下半年檢討後的成效又如何？都是人命喔！"],["洪部長申翰：當然。我跟委員說明，我們當然也做出檢討、也做出精進、改善的作為，這裡面包括修法計畫、包括跨部會的合作，也包括把一些高風險場（廠）列為重點勞檢跟稽查的對象。我們其實列了一系列相關改進作為，就是不希望再發生類似重大職安事件。"],["麥委員玉珍：是啊！但是我們沒有看到成效如何。不是用講的、說你們有做，而是要檢討。去年總共就有83案營造業的墜落死亡案件，每一個數據代表的是一個家庭的生命、一個人就牽涉一家人，所以是整個家庭的痛。雖然勞動部的設定就是營造業的墜落打擊年，但是你們的政策顯然都是口號，我們沒有看到效果。部長針對這個問題是不是有具體作為，而不只是預期降低數據而已？跨部會實施的效果在哪裡？我們看到英國、新加坡、日本營造業墜落死亡比率為40%，南韓約57%，但是我們的國家呢？高達60～70%，大部分建築工程勞工墜落案是電梯井或施工架等造成的，所以我們要如何預防這些事件？落差那麼大，你們有沒有拿別人的經驗檢討怎麼落實、怎麼跨部會處理？我們要的是實際的幫助，不是檢討再檢討。安慰的話，人民、勞工不想要聽，要的是實際、有效的作為。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，該檢討的部分我們當然都在檢討，但是要說都是口號我不同意，並不是！其實是逐年都有一些改善，改善的幅度可能不符合大家原本的期待，可是也不是什麼都沒有做。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你們覺得做了之後效果在哪裡？做了，那效果在哪裡？從政策面、法制面到宣傳面，你可以舉例、可以講嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得我們有加強的空間。我們也是覺得在制度面、法制面有加強的空間，所以才提出修法的草案跟計畫，這也是我們希望能夠改善的具體行動，都包括在這裡面。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們看到現行建築法還有職業安全衛生法都有停工的規定，但是裡面沒有定期、改善後的複查，大包、小包、中包都無法落實。所以我們希望參考、研議針對重大違規或重大工安意外增加期限，而不是業者送計畫、報告、檢討過來，你們就讓他們復工。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們現在也在檢討一些停復工的條件，包括：重大職安或工安事件發生後如果要復工，我們會要求將系統性的風險都改善，才可以復工。"],["麥委員玉珍：有沒有定一個時間？"],["洪部長申翰：可能不是一個固定的期限，例如2個禮拜還是1個月，可能不是這樣，而是要針對這些系統性的風險都做出具體改善作為才能夠復工，時間可能是比1個月更長的。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你是說你們沒有針對重大事故限定時間？他們提出來以後，你們也要評估嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：委員，比方說在遠東新世紀化纖廠的事件裡，停工以後，我們現在要求業者系統性地改善風險，停工時間到現在已經兩個多月了。所以我並不是只劃一條線，例如2個禮拜還是1個月就可以讓它復工，並不是這樣的！而是看它的系統性風險能不能夠真的被克服跟管理，我們希望能夠把復工的條件更加強落實到這邊。"],["麥委員玉珍：很好！我們要的就是實際的作業，或者你要提出有效的報告，不希望只是檢討再檢討，或者是寫計畫……"],["洪部長申翰：這是我們現在正在做的。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們希望的是有效的、對大家有幫助的做法。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：還有，剛才有很多人問、我也很關心這一塊：目前有多少移工來做營造業？還有，那麼危險的工作，本籍員工的訓練就已經不足了，移工的訓練又如何？畢竟這個工作那麼危險。還有，用什麼方式、用什麼語言、效果如何？有嗎？可不可以具體回答我？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們現在確實希望進場移工都能有職安卡，職安卡目前其實也設計多國語言。但委員說的沒有錯，移工的相關安全訓練會涉及到多了一個語言挑戰，就這部分，我認為需要更大的落實，在讓不同語言的移工都能得到安全相關訊息的部分，我們需要做得更透徹，我覺得這部分是需要的。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是現在有嗎？我們已經開放營造業移工，這個安全措施、辦法有嗎？還是完全沒有？情況怎麼樣？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們可以再把相關資料提供給您的辦公室。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，把相關資料提供給我，就是關於這個訓練過程。還有，我們希望勞動部跟其他部會真的應該正視制度面及執行面雙重失靈這個狀況，政策不能只是口號啦！也不能以設定的數據當作目標。還有，意外發生後的檢討報告是不是只是紙上談兵、紙上作業？勞工的命不是數字或者在紙上寫寫而已，我希望的是勞動部真的動起來，跟各部會合作，因為不管是本籍勞工或外籍勞工，每一個勞工都是媽媽心目中的寶貝，生命是很可貴的，所以希望你重視這件事情，不要造謠，這樣更對不起勞工。以上，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們沒有造謠。我們也是用非常審慎的心態在看待這件事情的，我覺得不要隨便說我們造謠。"],["主席：謝謝部長。部長不會造謠，也不會招搖。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}},{"id":"160807","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160807","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369f17f3cb1ed72dc843c0ba1d923b4b8db98ab4b80bc74e67d3fb8e3d700d2a5af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:05:15 - 12:13:20","影片長度":"00:08:05","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:05:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:13:20+08:00","duration":485,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.7009687499999995,"end":7.000343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.523468750000001,"end":8.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.117218750000003,"end":15.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.15096875,"end":15.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.47159375,"end":16.551593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.83846875,"end":18.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.09971875,"end":41.290343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.69534375,"end":50.031593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.28471875,"end":50.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.875343750000006,"end":61.641593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.979093750000004,"end":69.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.58534375,"end":72.66096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.82971875,"end":78.75284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.29284375,"end":92.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.72284375000001,"end":82.56659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.35971875,"end":85.08096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.80971875,"end":94.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.64909375,"end":95.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.42096875,"end":96.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.31534375000001,"end":101.71971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.98971875000001,"end":107.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.31784375000001,"end":110.22471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.81534375000001,"end":111.25409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.97971875,"end":118.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.26596875000001,"end":116.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.41346875,"end":117.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.25284375000001,"end":123.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.50534375000001,"end":126.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.47096875000001,"end":129.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.96846875,"end":140.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.63346875000002,"end":162.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.57096875000002,"end":164.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.37659375,"end":177.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.03284375,"end":198.75096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.49221875,"end":180.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.12909375,"end":182.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.57596875000002,"end":185.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.46971875,"end":192.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.47284375,"end":240.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.54346875000002,"end":203.81346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.55721875,"end":223.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.49346875,"end":226.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.55034375000002,"end":240.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.58409375000002,"end":243.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.68909375,"end":246.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.28784375,"end":248.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.02159375000002,"end":254.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.21909375,"end":264.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.87284375000002,"end":256.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.27346875,"end":257.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.60659375,"end":259.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.93471875,"end":291.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.18784375,"end":295.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.52909375,"end":298.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.19096875,"end":303.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.94971875000005,"end":320.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.29721875,"end":330.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.96659375,"end":411.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.46846875,"end":332.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.13409375000003,"end":339.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.04909375,"end":370.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.33596875,"end":370.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.03846875000005,"end":411.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.78096875,"end":411.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.79784375,"end":423.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.99846875000003,"end":424.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.31909375000004,"end":424.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.97721875,"end":426.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.18784375,"end":431.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.69346875,"end":436.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.24971875000006,"end":459.03096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.94409375000004,"end":448.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.03096875000006,"end":471.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.28659375,"end":475.58534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.02846875000006,"end":483.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.71534375000005,"end":482.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.61784375,"end":484.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.83284375000005,"end":485.42346875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.731,"end":6.736,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉 有請部長陳部長"},{"start":15.711,"end":40.951,"text":"部長好部長很多的委員對這個凍保警察都非常非常的支持包括我也是那我想在這個警察這兩字用在這邊對大家來說尤其是內政部其實他們是有蠻多的疑慮的那所以他們有一些自己的建議但我要講就是說其實基本上我們遇到的就是不管是你所謂的凍檢員或是凍保官"},{"start":41.892,"end":69.565,"text":"其實有很多東西我們都希望在文字上能夠去修正但主要是希望能夠賦予更多的公權力去執法那我們看到勞檢員勞動檢查法你不依勞動檢查法去規避甚至是拒絕做勞動檢查有3到15萬的一個罰款那凍檢的部分我們希望能夠給予更多的一些武器跟利器但是你也有提到一個很重要的就是沒有人力"},{"start":70.646,"end":78.523,"text":"那我想問一下你知道我們現在動保事件多半都是怎麼樣去查獲的嗎最一開始"},{"start":79.906,"end":107.527,"text":"這個通常都是民眾的一個檢舉最大宗的都是檢舉不管我們最近台中其實也蠻多有所謂的棄養路邊丟狗甚至有最近發生的就是捕犬貓石虎來做食用販賣這些東西多半有可能一開始都是透過檢舉那我們我想要一個觀點跟你分享你知道現在警察有疫警"},{"start":108.388,"end":118.375,"text":"有民防你知道嗎知道透過一些訓練成為一個類似輔助志工的一個隊伍但是動保呢"},{"start":119.349,"end":140.154,"text":"有沒有這樣子透過專業的一個訓練把它納入當然有多半的都是所謂的公民團體他們在幫忙協助動保團體那我們非常感謝他們的一個協助但是能不能給予更多的資源先讓他們能夠加入這些動保的行列的時候有更多的保障"},{"start":140.994,"end":163.773,"text":"甚至有更多的一些資源給他們去用後續依序的慢慢在往我們的所謂的賦予更多的一個權力有所謂的洞檢員那洞檢員可能還會搭配更多的一些志工隊甚至這些志工隊不只是所謂的公民團體我們自己也有所謂的類似屬於洞堡的意境洞堡的民房"},{"start":164.494,"end":178.07,"text":"明智不一定是要用這樣子但是他所賦予的一些相關的專業訓練資源我覺得這個是農業部可以給予更多的一個幫助您覺得這樣子的觀念可以嗎我跟你們報告其實現在就有義務的動物保護的檢查人員"},{"start":180.753,"end":202.555,"text":"義務的部分那也是我們的但是人力就我所知道並不是非常現在是比較少所以我想這個區塊是可以好好的去加強來協助因為現在全台灣的凍檢人員如果沒有記錯的話大概330幾個而已其實並不多啦所以我們整體人力是不足的那所以幾乎都是靠這些所謂的凍保團體公民團體在幫忙"},{"start":203.976,"end":222.285,"text":"所以勞動部要怎麼樣加強人力然後賦予更多的一些權力我覺得這是各個要去做一個探討然後多頭馬車去努力去執行的再來上次我有跟你提到農業部支持禁止夜市活體動物作為遊戲贈品希望設置落日條款進行一定時間的一個過渡"},{"start":223.666,"end":239.788,"text":"那本席也可以理解設置合理的緩衝期但是想進一步請教一下落日條款設計不能只有形式的過場真正要有助於政策的一個落實請問農業部合理的落日期間是多久半年 一年 還是兩年 三年"},{"start":240.849,"end":264.346,"text":"這個部分我們必須要再跟產業 因為這個議題在產業溝通的時候有兩極化的反應所以我們才會說在法裡面希望有一個能夠授權中央主管機關能夠指定公告的一個品項有沒有我希望能夠加強溝通趕快去訂定這一方面的一個期程但是我要提醒的是落日的期間是不是也會同步要求夜市"},{"start":265.346,"end":291.084,"text":"業者改善動物飼養環境進行輔導落日的期間是否農業部可以建立定期的稽查違規的處理的一個配套我本席認為如果有這樣子的落日條款我們可以接受但是就應該要有明確的落日時間表明確的一個輔導機制協助業者轉型甚至是轉換非動物性商品的一個獎品我想這個落日"},{"start":292.285,"end":317.846,"text":"後續有項的違規才加重法但是中間怎麼輔導這個設計的方案農業部是否能夠承諾在修法協商的時候也補充這個具體的方案我想我們在後續條文協商的時候我們一定會強化這個區塊特別是當如果說在討論的時候能夠授權狀況主管機關能夠公告不受這個禁止影響的部分也要有個弱智條款"},{"start":318.266,"end":340.592,"text":"在落日的過程中也要達到所謂的友善動物的這樣子的一個精神納在這個區塊裡面不是說你排除了以後就不管它了這個部分我想我們會來積極來處理這個部分我要麻煩你們要積極因為我們點出這些問題那實驗動物來源的缺乏管理我們一直在講實驗動物的這些動保權這個部分現在台灣有192個實驗動物機構每年使用的實驗動物數量高達"},{"start":348.635,"end":361.14,"text":"116萬隻還包含這個禽蛋魚胚胚胎等未納入統計的一個動物這代表台灣科學研究中使用動物的規模龐大持續的成長這些動物的來源主要如下國內的繁殖場"},{"start":364.602,"end":388.717,"text":"74.28%那自行繁殖的有13.16%在應用的是5.18%那市場或寵物店購買的是3.03%其他的有1.92%野外捕捉的是0.93%然後國外進口是0.82%學術交流是0.68%也就是說超過七成的實驗動物啊來自於國內的繁殖場而繁殖場的管理狀況如果不佳"},{"start":389.457,"end":411.017,"text":"也會影響到實驗動物的一個健康狀態以及實驗結果的可信度所以帶到這些數字我希望你們能夠重視相關的國內繁殖場農業部有沒有訂定管理的標準比方說繁殖設置的設立標準動物檢查的疾病篩檢要求以及遺傳背景的登錄管理等等有沒有"},{"start":412.118,"end":426.595,"text":"現在的法並沒有做它的修正不過我們用現行法去做授權的執法來處理這個繁殖跟相關的飼養的這些辦法我想動保法超過20年了"},{"start":427.616,"end":447.893,"text":"農業部都沒有訂出實驗動物來源管理辦法那這個部分我希望我不是要究責但我希望我們要探討這個問題因為我剛剛已經講了它的健康如果它沒有設立得很好它就會影響到這些實驗動物的健康就會影響到實驗的結果我們希望能夠更加照顧也希望實驗結果有所成效"},{"start":448.453,"end":464.415,"text":"所以這個東西是有必要的我希望農業部能夠好好的在這一次修法的當中能夠也把這個實驗動物來源管理辦法的草案能夠訂定出來部長可以承諾嗎我想實驗動物本身因為它現在的機制就有它有一個實驗動物的一個審查辦法"},{"start":465.396,"end":481.038,"text":"他一定是因為做實驗一定是非常重視這些動物的來源不足才會點出這個問題我希望你能夠承諾會後我會繼續追我想這個部分也許可以在調溫討論的時候我們再來討論看有什麼樣的方式能夠達到我們的意見想法"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":951,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時5分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。很多委員對於動保警察都非常非常的支持，包括我也是。我想「警察」這個兩字用在這邊對大家來說，尤其是內政部，其實他們有滿多疑慮的，所以他們有一些自己的建議。但我要講的就是，基本上我們遇到的不管是你所謂的動檢員或是動保官，其實有很多東西我們都希望在文字上能夠修整，但主要是希望能夠賦予更多的公權力去執法。我們看到勞檢員，不依勞動檢查法去規避甚至是拒絕做勞動檢查，有3到15萬的罰鍰。至於動檢的部分，我們希望能夠給予更多的武器跟利器，但是你也有提到一個很重要的，就是沒有人力。我想問一下，你知道現在動保事件多半都是怎麼樣去查獲的嗎？最一開始。"],["陳部長駿季：最一開始通常都是民眾的檢舉。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對吧？"],["陳部長駿季：對，從檢舉開始。"],["羅委員廷瑋：最大宗的都是檢舉。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：最近臺中其實也有滿多的棄養，在路邊丟狗，甚至最近發生捕犬貓、石虎食用、販賣，這些東西多半有可能一開始都是透過檢舉。我有一個觀點想跟你分享，你知道現在警察有義警、有民防，你知道嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：知道。"],["羅委員廷瑋：透過一些訓練，成為一個類似輔助志工的隊伍。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是動保有沒有這樣透過專業的訓練，把它納入？當然多半都是所謂的公民團體，他們在幫忙協助動保團體，我們非常感謝他們的協助，但是能不能給予更多的資源，先讓他們能夠加入這些動保行列的時候有更多的保障，甚至有更多的資源給他們去用？後續依序慢慢再往所謂賦予更多的權力，有所謂的動檢員，動檢員可能還會搭配更多的志工隊，甚至這些志工隊不只是公民團體，我們自己也有類似屬於動保的義警、動保的民防，名字不一定是要用這樣子，但是它所賦予的一些相關專業訓練、資源，我覺得這個是農業部可以給予更多的幫助，您覺得這樣子的觀念可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，其實現在就有義務的動物保護檢查人員，義務的部分，類似我們的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：那是義務的，但是就我所知道，人力並不是非常足夠。"],["陳部長駿季：現在是比較少，所以我想這個區塊是可以好好的去加強，來協助……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，但就我所知道是人力不足啊！"],["陳部長駿季：因為現在全臺灣的動檢人員，我如果沒有記錯的話，大概是三百三十幾個而已，其實並不多。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我們整體人力是不足的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：幾乎都是靠這些所謂的動保團體、公民團體在幫忙。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以農業部要怎麼樣加強人力，然後賦予更多的權力？我覺得這是各個要去做一個探討，然後多頭馬車去努力、去執行的。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：再來，上次我有跟你提到，農業部支持禁止夜市用活體動物作為遊戲贈品，希望設置落日條款，進行一定時間的過渡，本席也可以理解設置合理的緩衝期，但是想進一步請教一下，落日條款的設計不能只有形式的過場，真正要有助於政策的落實，請問農業部，合理的落日期間是多久？半年？一年？還是兩年、三年？"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分我們必須要再跟產業溝通，因為這個議題在產業溝通的時候有兩極化的反應，所以我們才會說在法裡面希望有能夠授權中央主管機關指定公告的品項。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我希望能夠加強溝通，趕快去訂定這方面的期程。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是我要提醒的是，落日的期間是不是也會同步要求夜市業者改善動物飼養環境，進行輔導？落日的期間是否農業部可以建立定期稽查、違規處理的配套？本席認為如果有這樣子的落日條款，我們可以接受，但是就應該要有明確的落日時間表、明確的輔導機制，協助業者轉型，甚至是轉換非動物性商品的獎品。我想，這個落日如果後續再有違規採加重罰，但是中間怎麼輔導，相關設計方案，農業部是否能夠承諾在修法協商的時候，也補充這個具體的方案？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們在後續條文協商的時候，一定會強化這個區塊，特別是如果在討論的時候能夠授權中央主管機關公告不受禁止影響的部分，也要有個落日條款，在落日的過程中也要達到所謂的友善動物這樣子的精神，納在這個區塊裡面，而不是排除了以後就不管它了！這個部分我想我們會積極處理。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個部分要麻煩你們要積極，因為我們點出這些問題。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：實驗動物的來源缺乏管理，我們一直在講實驗動物的動保權，現在臺灣有192個實驗動物機構，每年使用的實驗動物數量高達116萬隻，還不包含禽蛋、魚胚胎等未納入統計的動物，這代表臺灣科學研究使用動物的規模龐大，持續的成長。這些動物的來源主要如下：國內的繁殖場74.28%，自行繁殖的有13.16%，再應用的是5.18%，市場或寵物店購買的是3.03%，其他的有1.92%，野外捕捉是0.93%，國外進口是0.82%，學術交流是0.68%；也就是說，超過七成的實驗動物來自於國內的繁殖場，而繁殖場的管理狀況如果不佳，也會影響到實驗動物的健康狀態，以及實驗結果的可信度，所以帶到這些數字，我希望你們能夠重視。相關的國內繁殖場，農業部有沒有訂定管理的標準？比方說繁殖設置的設立標準、動物檢查的疾病篩檢要求，以及遺傳背景的登錄、管理等等，有沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：現在的法並沒有修正，不過我們用現行法去做授權的子法，來處理繁殖跟相關飼養的辦法。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想動保法超過20年了，農業部都沒有訂出實驗動物來源管理辦法，這個部分我不是要究責，但我希望我們要探討這個問題，因為我剛剛已經講了，如果沒有設立得很好，就會影響到這些實驗動物的健康，就會影響到實驗的結果，我們希望能夠更加照顧，也希望實驗結果有所成效。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以這個東西是有必要的，我希望農業部能夠好好的，在這一次修法當中也把實驗動物來源管理辦法草案能夠訂定出來，部長可以承諾嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想實驗動物本身，現在的機制有一個實驗動物審查辦法，因為做實驗一定是非常重視這些動物的來源，那相關的部分……"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，但是不足，不足我才會點出這個問題，我希望你能夠承諾，會後我會繼續追，麻煩你。"],["陳部長駿季：我想這個部分也許可以在條文討論的時候，我們再來討論，看有什麼樣的方式能夠達到委員的意見、想法。"],["羅委員廷瑋：來加強這個區塊，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請葉元之委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","葉元之","蔡易餘","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","邱議瑩","張雅琳","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員呂玉\n玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員劉建國等 16 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案；七、本\n院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」\n案；八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員李坤城等\n22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案；十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十四、本院委員郭昱晴\n等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護\n法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保\n護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案；十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動\n物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正\n草案」案；十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案；二\n十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二十一、本院委\n員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬\n具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案；二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五\n條之二條文修正草案」案；二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等 17 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17 人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案\n（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144501_00004"}}},{"id":"160806","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160806","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423695bf12b767eb573ef3c0ba1d923b4b8db98ab4b80bc74e67de5f61c5647d20dc05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:55:34 - 12:05:08","影片長度":"00:09:34","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:55:34+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:05:08+08:00","duration":574,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.684093750000001,"end":7.523468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.69221875,"end":8.181593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.796593750000003,"end":15.235343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.39971875,"end":75.79971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.04846875,"end":23.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.26346875,"end":25.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.43596875,"end":27.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.16471875,"end":35.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.25721875,"end":37.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.73284375,"end":44.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.188468750000006,"end":45.627218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.344093750000006,"end":48.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.79346875,"end":61.844093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.72971875,"end":65.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.65784375,"end":66.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.12034375,"end":97.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.00909375,"end":86.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.28284375000001,"end":89.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.52221875000001,"end":96.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.84284375,"end":96.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.41221875000001,"end":128.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.46659375000002,"end":161.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.18284375000002,"end":164.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.06846875000002,"end":174.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.00784375,"end":178.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.87221875,"end":189.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.60471875000002,"end":200.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.60409375,"end":193.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.28721875000002,"end":196.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.42159375,"end":223.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.72596875000002,"end":239.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.94284375,"end":243.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.86221875,"end":270.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.79409375,"end":247.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.98784375000002,"end":249.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.27471875,"end":249.37596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.37596875000003,"end":249.39284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.51471875000001,"end":252.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.97034375,"end":253.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.51034375,"end":253.96596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.48221875,"end":276.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.34221875000003,"end":279.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.00409375000004,"end":285.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.48909375,"end":296.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.58096875,"end":287.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.13721875000005,"end":292.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.12409375000004,"end":298.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.71846875,"end":307.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.15596875,"end":316.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.21909375,"end":308.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.63534375,"end":321.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.16659375,"end":324.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.25409375000004,"end":329.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.18221875,"end":329.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.17346875000004,"end":331.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.69659375000003,"end":332.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.29971875,"end":338.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.49721875,"end":337.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.39159375,"end":343.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.50409375000004,"end":347.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.21284375000005,"end":348.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.10721875,"end":351.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.72284375000004,"end":358.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.25346875,"end":364.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.59034375000005,"end":367.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.36596875000004,"end":414.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.42034375000003,"end":370.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.25971875000005,"end":372.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.98409375,"end":381.89534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.64971875000003,"end":417.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.44659375000003,"end":421.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.85534375000003,"end":423.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.35284375000003,"end":431.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.59221875000003,"end":432.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.33471875000004,"end":436.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.91659375,"end":435.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.13159375000004,"end":446.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.03409375,"end":439.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.74284375,"end":439.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.92846875000004,"end":439.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.78471875,"end":442.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.33284375000005,"end":448.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.04971875,"end":481.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.01159375000003,"end":475.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.08659375,"end":523.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.6115937500001,"end":540.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.14909375,"end":547.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.6584687500001,"end":548.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.2322187500001,"end":555.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":549.5147187499999,"end":549.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.5947187500001,"end":551.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.6572187500001,"end":559.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.6865937499999,"end":556.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.75409375,"end":556.8215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.55534375,"end":567.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.6809687500001,"end":571.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.70596875,"end":568.4653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.4653437500001,"end":568.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.20346875,"end":570.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.49034375,"end":570.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.54096875,"end":570.5915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.08096875,"end":572.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.0090937500001,"end":572.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.19471875,"end":573.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.9665937500001,"end":574.20284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.694,"end":8.038,"text":"好,谢谢主席,有请部长,陈部长。"},{"start":16.428,"end":42.365,"text":"部長還記得這個不久這個新竹縣的一個動保團體苦追了大概有半年掌握了越南移工捕殺、流浪貓犬跟山羌甚至石虎這樣子的一個案件那好不容易他們向這個彰化的動保處來做檢舉但是卻被動保處以沒有公權力為由所以他們轉而向警方來做投訴那後來警方也只能從旁去協助那到最後他們是找了這個"},{"start":44.746,"end":60.473,"text":"這個議員 這個江和樹議員但是因為江和樹議員把這個部分納為 揭露了他們苦追了半年原本應該可以抓到三十幾位涉案的人員現在目前只有一位被函送那這個部分其實也凸顯了一個問題就是沒有公權力這個問題"},{"start":61.914,"end":85.31,"text":"我想在去年的3月1號我想部長應該印象還深刻那時候您是代理部長所以那個時候其實我已經在這個總諮詢的時候已經明定了應該要從中央到地方我們要建立這個動保專責的一個單位就是能夠來及時制止這個加害者的一個執法的一個權利這是我第一次針對動保警察的事件來提出我的總諮詢"},{"start":86.23,"end":94.416,"text":"那個時候其實我們也有一個共識也有一個方向而且這個動保警察的事件其實從2011年到2013年其實我們的民團就已經不斷的在倡議當中了但是呢到了去年的6月28號總諮詢另外一次總諮詢我想部長應該也又被我問到這一集了也是共識我們是賦予動檢員司法警察權我們往這個方向來前進當時部長也非常非常的肯定"},{"start":114.369,"end":133.718,"text":"那我們當然也對這個部分所謂的動保警察的一個編制我們也報了一份的信心喔但是呢到了這個去年的11月13號我在經濟委員會當中我再次的用動保警察這個部分來來做諮詢那時候部長也承諾說會納入委員也就是我"},{"start":134.218,"end":161.002,"text":"的一個意見來提出這個修法的一個版本但非常的遺憾到昨天我們確定向農業部動保司這邊來做確定動保司這邊給我們的答案是賦予司法警察權將對體制造成嚴重的負擔實務上沒有辦法安排現有的人力接受長期的一個訓練所以不宜禁於修法推動沒有法規沒有編制當然就不會有緣兒我覺得這個部分是不是本末倒置啦"},{"start":162.233,"end":175.632,"text":"我第一個跟委員說明就是我印象中在11月13日的時候我提出另外一個因為那時候在6月多的質詢的時候我們也曾經跟內政部做了一些討論事實上在更早之前在這個內閣之前也討論了"},{"start":178.957,"end":201.092,"text":"最主要是警察配合動保檢查人員當時配合得還不錯就是當你動檢員有需求的話警察就會來協助介入嘛介入來做這個處理但往往我們在事件發生當下比方說我們是一般民眾發生所謂的他檢舉了有人虐待動物他們過去的那個時間其實也會拉得很長對就是那個時間差的問題"},{"start":202.893,"end":222.823,"text":"那後來跟相關的內政部討論的時候他們還是覺得說能夠在我們自己的體制裡面去做處理所以我在11月份的時候也曾經提到一個用凍保檢查官就是凍檢的官就是類似是消保官的概念有沒有我那時候有提出來消保官的概念來去做因為現在最重要就是"},{"start":223.783,"end":246.81,"text":"跨縣市的還有中央跟地方還有一些地方的協調的部分那用凍保官的方式來做協調那如果說我們把現在目前的凍保檢察員賦予他的一個調查權力的話再賦予凍保官的話那相對的也可以當作也可以取代現在目前的凍保警察我現在我們回過頭來講我剛剛講到凍保警察這個是真的"},{"start":247.81,"end":270.645,"text":"我們倡議了很久每一個委員幾乎也都會在部會的質詢當中也都會提到這個部分但問題是我們昨天接到的是這樣子的一個答案其實對很多人覬覦動保警察可以在我們在動物保護的這一塊發揮公權力的同時其實對這個答案對他們來講是非常非常令人失望的答案"},{"start":271.55,"end":295.356,"text":"我了解其實剛才委員所提到的我覺得我們同仁寫得不好當你入法以後就有編制就有原額你沒有入法就沒有編制就有原額所以我剛剛講了所以應該是反過來兩個是因果關係我剛剛講你沒有法規沒有編制當然就不會有原額但是你現在不能跟我講說因為人力不足所以我們現在不宜修法這個整個本末導致的一個這個回應我覺得實務上應該是"},{"start":298.897,"end":324.415,"text":"我們在處理動保法有很多不同的意見那我們都是有共識的我們先處理那以動保警察來講在部會之間的共識還沒有那我們的共識大概要處理多久因為從去年的第一個會期的3月1號我總質詢到現在已經經過了一年了我們還要多久什麼時候會有一個明確的一個共識可以出來可以讓我們有一個方向應該這邊有內政部的同仁吧是不是 有沒有"},{"start":328.56,"end":342.82,"text":"什麼時候什麼時候我們需要知道什麼時候因為這是從不管是之前誰執政到現在為止其實動保警察這個議題我們講了十幾年了我知道我是可以請內政部就這個議題他們以他們部的立場然後我們再來啟動協調"},{"start":348.298,"end":363.118,"text":"我是內政部警政署行政署署長那針對這個動保警察這部分那實際上有幾點要提出報告就是說我現在其實沒有這麼多的時間我們事後給我辦公室一份報告好不好可以嗎"},{"start":364.54,"end":380.877,"text":"目前來講廣義的這個警察當然我知道廣義的凍保警察警察的人力是有限的但是因為我們跟農業部之前已經取得共識就是我們賦予所謂的凍檢員他們有相對的可以執法的一個公權力"},{"start":381.778,"end":395.736,"text":"像我剛剛講的這個例子我們原本可以抓到三十幾個就是越南移工非法捕獵三槍甚至是石虎還有很多的流浪貓捲本來可以抓到三十幾個可是就因為我們的動保處就因為地方的動保處"},{"start":398.379,"end":417.085,"text":"沒有公權力這五個字一出現我們現在就是自愛難行啊本來可以抓到三十幾個現在只有一個人被含送這個就是一個很大的問題啊農業部拜託想一下辦法我們往這個方面去去去有一點共識至少有一點成果給大家一個期待可以嗎我想兩個方式一個方式就是"},{"start":418.696,"end":434.333,"text":"我們會再跟內政部討論就是動保檢察員賦予司法的權責如果說內政部不反對就是由農業部這邊來處理然後包括後面的訓練由他們帶訓那這個部分我想委員就可以直接提案入法"},{"start":434.853,"end":458.712,"text":"入法以後我們就來處理好我們講的就是我們有法規才有編制才有緣和嘛對不對這個順序應該是這樣嘛不要回答我是反過來的順序說我們人力不夠所以沒辦法入法應該要有法規才有後面的編制最後一個問題我想這是公立收容所的一個問題我想爆倉的問題這個從2017年我們零撲殺之後其實不管是空間也好環境也好其實真的都造成很多的公立收容所他們在"},{"start":459.392,"end":479.628,"text":"整個所有內部收容的一個狀況那麼我們來看留於五年以上的是佔百分之二十那你要知道流氓貓狗其實如果真的待在收容所裡頭長達五年以上幾乎都是老的幾乎都是生病的但是也因為這樣孕育了很多的所謂的私人的收容所很多的愛爸愛媽他們的一個"},{"start":481.449,"end":502.927,"text":"私人收容所那時候其實我們跟這個動保處這邊我們真的也都有在溝通不管是地方的動保處也好或者是我們農業部這邊動保室也好我們都有在講是不是怎麼樣可以輔導這些所謂的私人的收容所讓它合法讓它入我們的一個管理我們把它弄成一個生命教育的園區來做這樣子的一個推廣一方面來減輕"},{"start":503.888,"end":522.491,"text":"公立收容所的一個收容的這個數量的壓力二方面其實我們也讓很多的生命教育讓我們的生命教育從小扎根讓它變成一個可以觀光的園區可以來學習生命教育的園區這個對他們來講其實真的我們是可以兩贏的這樣的一個方面我們這個部分可以進一步再來做研議嗎可以嗎"},{"start":523.672,"end":546.565,"text":"我非常認同委員所提到的就是說完全不能只靠公立的收容所那怎麼樣讓公立跟民間的收容所能夠成為一個協同協助的角色是非常重要的雖然說我們現在的動保法並沒有把這個民間的收容納入但是我想委員的版本有一些版本有納入那到時候審查的時候我想我們共同朝這個方向來做討論"},{"start":548.286,"end":573.14,"text":"我們現在得到您朝共同的方向但不要讓我聽了這一屆做完之後我還是聽不到真正的方向可以嗎可以 我想我們接下來討論主調討論的時候我們就把它確定下來好 那當然還有所謂這個動物照護的技術師啊但因為時間的關係我們用書面的我們到時候再請六月底這邊一起來演繹六月底就會 上次有跟您承諾六月底就會送出來這個相關的指引好 謝謝部長 是謝謝主席 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":912,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時55分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長，還記得不久前新竹縣的一個動保團體苦追了大概有半年，掌握了越南移工捕殺流浪貓犬跟山羌，甚至石虎，這樣的一個案件。好不容易他們向彰化的動保處檢舉，但是動保處卻以沒有公權力為由，所以他們轉而向警方投訴，後來警方也只能從旁去協助，最後他們是找了江和樹議員，但是因為江和樹議員把這個部分揭露了，他們苦追了半年，原本應該可以抓到三十幾位涉案的人員，結果目前只有1位被函送，這個部分其實也凸顯了沒有公權力的問題。在去年的3月1號，我想部長應該印象還深刻……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：那時候您是代理部長，其實我已經在總質詢的時候提了，從中央到地方，我們應該要建立動保專責的一個單位，就是能夠有即時制止加害者的一個執法權力，這是我第一次針對動保警察的事件來提出總質詢，那個時候我們有一個共識、也有一個方向。而且從2011年到2013年，關於動保警察的議題其實我們的民團就已經不斷地在倡議了，但是到了去年的6月28號另外一次總質詢時，部長應該也又被我問到這一題，共識也是我們要賦予動檢員司法警察權，往這個方向來前進，當時部長也非常非常的肯定，我們當然也對所謂動保警察編制的部分，抱了一份的信心。但是到了去年11月13號，我在經濟委員會再次的針對動保警察質詢，那時候部長也承諾會納入委員的意見，也就是我的意見，來提出修法的版本。","但非常遺憾，昨天我們向農業部動保司確認，給我們的答案是「賦予司法警察權，將對體制造成嚴重的負擔，實務上沒有辦法安排現有的人力接受長期的訓練，所以不宜修法推動」。沒有法規、沒有編制，當然就不會有員額，我覺得這個部分是不是本末倒置了？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，第一個，印象中在11月13號的時候，我提出另外一個，因為在6月多質詢的時候，我們也曾經跟內政部做了一些討論，事實上在更早之前，在這個內閣之前也討論了，最主要是警察與動保檢查人員當時配合得還不錯，當動檢員有需求的話，警察就會協助介入做處理……"],["郭委員昱晴：但往往在事件發生當下，比方一般民眾檢舉有人虐待動物，他們過去的時間其實也會拉得很長。"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是時間差的問題。後來跟內政部做相關討論的時候，他們還是覺得能夠在我們自己的體制裡面做處理，所以我在11月份也曾經提到一個用「動保檢查官」，就是動檢的官，類似消保官的概念，我那時候有提出用消保官的概念來做。因為現在最重要就是跨縣市、中央跟地方還有一些要協調的部分，用動保官的方式來協調，如果說我們賦予目前動保檢查員調查權力，再輔以動保官的話，相對的也可以取代目前的動保警察。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們回過頭來講，我剛剛講動保警察這個真的是我們倡議了很久，每一個委員幾乎在部會的質詢中也都會提到這個部分，但問題是我們昨天接到的是這樣子的一個答案。其實對很多寄予動保警察可以在動物保護的這一塊發揮公權力的人來說，這個答案是非常非常令人失望的答案耶！"],["陳部長駿季：我了解，其實剛才委員所提到的，我覺得我們同仁寫得不好啦！當你入法以後，就有編制、就有員額，但沒有入法，就沒有編制、就沒有員額，所以這兩個是因果關係。"],["郭委員昱晴：答對了，所以我剛剛講了，你們是反過來嘛！你沒有法規、沒有編制，當然就不會有員額嘛！但你現在不能跟我講，因為人力不足，所以我們現在不宜修法，整個本末倒置的回應，其實……"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得實務上應該是我們在處理動保法有很多不同的意見，我們都是有共識的先處理，以動保警察來講，在部會之間的共識還沒有……"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們的共識大概要處理多久？因為從我去年第一個會期3月1號總質詢到現在，已經過了1年了，我們還要多久？什麼時候會有一個明確的共識出來，可以讓我們有一個方向？"],["陳部長駿季：這邊應該有內政部的同仁吧，是不是？有沒有？"],["郭委員昱晴：什麼時候？我們需要知道什麼時候？"],["陳部長駿季：你們的態度，有沒有……"],["郭委員昱晴：因為不管之前是誰執政，到現在為止，其實動保警察這個議題，我們講了十幾年了……"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，我是不是可以請內政部就這個議題以部的立場說明，然後我們再來啟動協調？"],["張副組長國哲：委員好，我是內政部警政署行政組組長。針對動保警察這部分，實際上有幾點要提出報告，就是……"],["郭委員昱晴：我現在其實沒有這麼多的時間，事後給我辦公室一份報告好不好？可以嗎？"],["張副組長國哲：是，我簡單說明，目前來講，廣義的警察權……"],["郭委員昱晴：當然，我知道廣義的動保警察，警察的人力是有限的……"],["張副組長國哲：是，是。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是因為我們跟農業部之前已經取得共識，就是我們賦予所謂的動檢員相對的有可以執法的一個公權力……"],["張副組長國哲：沒錯，是。"],["郭委員昱晴：像我剛剛講的這個例子，我們原本可以抓到三十幾個越南移工非法捕獵山羌，甚至是石虎，還有很多的流浪貓犬，本來可以抓到三十幾個，可是就因為地方的動保處「沒有公權力」，這五個字一出現，我們現在就是窒礙難行啊！本來可以抓到三十幾個，現在只有一個人被函送，這就是一個很大的問題啊！農業部拜託想一下辦法，我們往這個方面去努力，有一點共識，至少有一點成果，給大家一個期待可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我想有兩個方式，一個方式是我們會再跟內政部討論賦予動保檢查員司法的權責，如果說內政部不反對，就是由農業部來處理，包括後面的訓練由他們代訓，這個部分我想委員就可以直接提案入法，入法以後我們就來處理。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們講的就是我們有法規，才有編制、才有員額嘛，對不對？這個順序應該是這樣嘛，不要回答我反過來的順序，說我們人力不夠，所以沒辦法入法。"],["陳部長駿季：是，我覺得反過來是不對的，應該要有法規才有後面的編制。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，最後一個是有關公立收容所爆倉的問題，從2017年零撲殺之後，不管是空間也好、環境也好，其實真的都造成很多的公立收容所有內部收容的問題。我們來看，收容逾5年以上的占20%，但你要知道，流浪貓狗如果真的待在收容所裡頭長達5年以上，幾乎都是老的、幾乎都是生病，也因為這樣，很多所謂私人的收容所有很多的愛爸愛媽私人收容所應運而生。其實我們跟動保處真的也都有在溝通，不管是地方的動保處也好，或者是農業部動保司也好，我們都有在講怎麼樣可以輔導這些所謂私人的收容所，讓它合法納入我們的管理，我們把它弄成一個生命教育的園區，來做這樣子的推廣。一方面減輕公立收容所收容數量的壓力；二方面也讓我們的生命教育從小扎根，讓它變成一個可以觀光的園區，可以來學習生命教育的園區，對他們來講，其實我們真的是可以創造兩贏的局面，針對這個部分，我們可以再進一步研議嗎？可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我非常認同委員所提到的，不能完全只靠公立的收容所，怎麼樣讓公立跟民間的收容所能夠成為協同、協助的角色，這是非常重要的。雖然說我們現在的動保法並沒有把民間的收容納入，但是我想委員們有一些版本有納入，到審查的時候，我想我們共同朝這個方向來討論。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們現在得到您朝共同方向的答案，但不要讓我聽了之後，這一屆做完之後，我還是聽不到真正的真正的方向，可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：可以，我想接下來逐條討論的時候，我們就把它確定下來。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。當然還有所謂的動物照護技術士，但因為時間關係，我們用書面的，到時候再請農業部一起研議。"],["陳部長駿季：上次有跟您承諾，6月底就會送出相關的指引。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請羅廷瑋委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","葉元之","蔡易餘","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","邱議瑩","張雅琳","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員呂玉\n玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員劉建國等 16 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案；七、本\n院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」\n案；八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員李坤城等\n22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案；十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十四、本院委員郭昱晴\n等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護\n法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保\n護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案；十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動\n物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正\n草案」案；十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案；二\n十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二十一、本院委\n員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬\n具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案；二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五\n條之二條文修正草案」案；二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等 17 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17 人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案\n（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144501_00004"}}},{"id":"160805","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160805","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369a09dbc28aee5a416693dd611367b4ddd98ab4b80bc74e67dcd6849d3fc6a78aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:01:23 - 12:12:18","影片長度":"00:10:55","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查「保險法」15案：\n一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案。【後3案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第一百二十三條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T12:01:23+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:12:18+08:00","duration":655,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.58284375,"end":7.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.945343750000001,"end":8.637218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.82284375,"end":10.054718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.83096875,"end":15.539093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.41659375,"end":17.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.80034375,"end":25.039718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.562843750000003,"end":32.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.95409375,"end":49.305968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.50534375,"end":42.572843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.55909375,"end":50.352218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.72346875,"end":54.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.96784375,"end":54.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.009718750000005,"end":57.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.51159375,"end":56.916593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.485968750000005,"end":59.430968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.055343750000006,"end":61.62471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.82721875,"end":63.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.05909375,"end":65.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.41721875,"end":71.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.66534375,"end":79.00596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.88346875,"end":81.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.87034375,"end":85.90784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.35096875,"end":134.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.45159375,"end":89.75534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.50784375,"end":156.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.22659375,"end":152.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.27721875,"end":152.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.34471875,"end":152.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.76596875,"end":165.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.00096875,"end":165.47346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.82784375,"end":165.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.86159375,"end":176.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.34596875,"end":171.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.23971875,"end":179.00721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.42534375000002,"end":177.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.53471875000002,"end":201.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.55909375000002,"end":184.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":184.59284375000001,"end":185.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.55471875,"end":185.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.11909375000002,"end":192.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.86971875,"end":195.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.00409375,"end":199.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.03784375,"end":199.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.28221875000003,"end":208.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.60284375,"end":201.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.03284375,"end":206.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.16721875000002,"end":219.42284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.74034375000002,"end":214.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.57971875,"end":214.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.56659375,"end":231.26909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.18596875,"end":223.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.68284375000002,"end":236.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.79159375,"end":262.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":238.22159375,"end":238.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.18409375000005,"end":263.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.63534375,"end":267.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":267.02721875000003,"end":270.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.06471875,"end":274.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":274.73909375,"end":279.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.23659375,"end":277.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.68784375,"end":282.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.75909375000003,"end":292.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.27659375,"end":298.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.26284375,"end":298.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.61721875,"end":301.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.90346875,"end":329.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.51346875,"end":314.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":314.53034375000004,"end":314.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.96909375,"end":315.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.44034375,"end":323.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.03846875000005,"end":343.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.20096875,"end":345.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":345.44534375,"end":359.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.67284375,"end":348.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.03409375,"end":378.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.63221875000005,"end":365.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":370.30221875,"end":370.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.02784375000005,"end":373.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.68971875,"end":375.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":378.99284375,"end":379.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.02659375,"end":381.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":380.89971875000003,"end":382.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.53659375,"end":405.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.07221875000005,"end":384.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.44159375000004,"end":397.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.98034375000003,"end":405.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":405.67221875,"end":409.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.75659375000004,"end":406.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.42284375,"end":412.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":412.50659375000004,"end":414.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.09721875,"end":420.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":420.35346875000005,"end":426.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.38221875000005,"end":427.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":426.32721875000004,"end":434.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":430.81596875,"end":431.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.15721875,"end":438.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":437.93721875000006,"end":439.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.96659375,"end":441.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":440.63721875000005,"end":450.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.83409375,"end":452.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":452.58471875000004,"end":455.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.39034375000006,"end":475.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":456.16221875,"end":457.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":461.44409375000004,"end":462.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":466.27034375000005,"end":469.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.45971875000004,"end":469.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":472.44659375000003,"end":473.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":475.26471875000004,"end":480.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.16284375000004,"end":481.39034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":480.36096875000004,"end":483.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.19596875,"end":490.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":489.06846875,"end":492.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.41409375,"end":509.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":508.01909375,"end":511.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.24659375000005,"end":537.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":512.32221875,"end":512.6765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":514.70159375,"end":515.6297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.6297187499999,"end":516.0178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":516.0178437500001,"end":517.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":533.8715937500001,"end":535.1709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":536.20034375,"end":538.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":537.9553437500001,"end":547.9115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":548.0634687500001,"end":549.4809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.7553437500001,"end":551.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":550.3078437500001,"end":551.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.79284375,"end":558.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":553.8178437500001,"end":554.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":557.6315937500001,"end":557.6653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":558.67784375,"end":561.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":560.8884687500001,"end":562.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.47471875,"end":564.9890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":564.9890937499999,"end":565.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.42784375,"end":573.5278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":569.83221875,"end":570.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.8147187500001,"end":580.7334687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":577.1728437500001,"end":578.2022187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.20596875,"end":586.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":581.4253437500001,"end":581.8303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":587.1459687500001,"end":598.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.1965937500001,"end":589.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":589.23846875,"end":589.2722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.2722187500001,"end":589.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":589.33971875,"end":589.7109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.7109687500001,"end":589.7278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.98471875,"end":593.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":593.00159375,"end":595.3640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":597.0178437500001,"end":602.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.03409375,"end":606.5690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":604.67909375,"end":608.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":607.8515937500001,"end":608.6615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":608.6615937500001,"end":609.1003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":609.1003437500001,"end":609.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":609.16784375,"end":613.7409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":609.4040937500001,"end":610.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.3403437500001,"end":612.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.7409687500001,"end":636.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":635.08784375,"end":635.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":637.2647187499999,"end":655.7765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":642.52971875,"end":644.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":646.61346875,"end":647.7609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":653.32971875,"end":655.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":655.9453437500001,"end":655.9622187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.839,"end":15.241,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請這個彭主委好 請彭主委主席在這邊宣布我們現在開放在現場用餐"},{"start":18.144,"end":43.266,"text":"主委 本期在前兩次會期都有跟您詢問過就是研議民間版的創櫃機制那您也有回覆說 金管會金管會也有回覆說 104年起已經開放證券商得經營股權性質群眾募資業成效有三家新創公司那時候的回覆是募資的金額現在有新台幣1700萬元這是上次回的"},{"start":43.766,"end":57.366,"text":"那專間又一個會期啦 半年又過去請問現在的募資成效有 績效有沒有增加這個我 請說我們了解一下再跟委員報告你現在告訴我 證據局成效咧 1700萬"},{"start":60.205,"end":75.036,"text":"又過了半年有沒有再增加?目前是沒有增加的沒有增加為什麼?你們不認真做這個嗎?沒有,廢買壯心其實他們有在做這個業務那他們有去鼓勵或者法華可以做什麼所以你們不重視這種這個創櫃這個民間版的創櫃機制的這種募資的這個業務喔?還是你們的做法是錯誤的?"},{"start":83.018,"end":109.329,"text":"我們當然是重視這個機制重視怎麼會沒有成效呢我們現在所謂的創櫃板我們有做一個整合你看喔為了扶植中小微型企業你們政局有最新的函令解釋就是說通過限定綜合證券商可以投資創櫃板登錄期間發行的新股投資總計不得超過券商競爭5%也不受標準公司單次發行的限制所以這個是比較新的新聞了"},{"start":110.049,"end":127.42,"text":"那可見我覺得金管會在這個彭主委過來後包括很多的金融的這個措施我都感覺上有要創新有要前進有要這個但是這個雖然你們修了這些修了那些你們好像整個成效都很差我們從這個以這個募資來講來我們講了兩個會期啦上個會期1700到現在還是沒有啊那你也知道我很關心這個議題啊"},{"start":134.565,"end":156.225,"text":"不過成效差我們會來虛心檢討啦所以我們一直跟你們提出說你們是不是這個股權群募平台是不是要有新的做法嘛我一直在講說比如說中小企業主管的這個中小企業開發公司跟新創企業這些來做募資平台你們是不是你們有創新處嘛 對不對那找這個中小企業開發公司櫃買找來是不是一起來想看怎麼來做啊"},{"start":157.046,"end":175.974,"text":"這個我們一定會來努力啦只是說現在的時候有一些法規法律上面的限制我們要來突破我知道經管會一直想突破很多法規我覺得您上來以後很多相關的法律都一直有在突破嘛但是我覺得你下面的單位好像對這些事情都有點不大認真啦"},{"start":176.594,"end":196.29,"text":"這也不能這麼說啦因為主要是說我們看結果嘛1700萬這樣算金額嗎從上個會議到現在那我現在跟你請求啦就是說這個我一直在講說這個中小企業這個因為還經濟部在管嘛那也有相關的公司有這些有新創企業嘛他們也有新創署嘛我們這邊也有這個創新處嘛這相關單位是不是一起來開個會啊"},{"start":201.674,"end":217.792,"text":"是不是來集思廣益到底是怎麼來做啊我們已經建議很多回啦因為你們都被動不前進啊也不是啦如果說啊這個問題能夠解決好解決早解決啦那就是沒有努力在那個吧這問題一定是有它的複雜度所以我覺得我們可以再來"},{"start":218.513,"end":237.693,"text":"早時間大家來開會吧我們這一點我們是已經問了一年多啦我想說那個彭主委上來以後很多觀念都比較新嘛包括等一下我們要講比如說高齡的這個保單的這個部分也開放了啦當然我們的想法是說真的是正確的事情又能夠做我們當然就盡量來完成這個我們還會繼續聽啦那接著我們講另外幾點啦政局局聽到沒"},{"start":241.998,"end":261.018,"text":"這個績效真的很差一年以來半年來都沒有任何的成長表示你們根本不用1700萬根本就等於是沒有一樣等於是沒有任何的進步還應該說不進則退還算是退步來討論一下今天這個保險法你們是有研究說是要放寬放行這個保單職介對吧"},{"start":262.84,"end":278.543,"text":"銀行的部分就是對對就是說放行給銀行做這個可以做直接的業務吧現在保險公司本來就依法就可以做我知道我知道我說但是現在是放行就是病人多銀行可以可以向銀行直接啦他可以做一個受信的標的只要銀行可以接受的情況"},{"start":278.763,"end":299.341,"text":"那這個跟現行的這個保險法是不是有相關的這個抵觸這個沒有就是說今天就好像比如說今天銀行在做融資的時候他會有他自己的考量比如說我們最極端可以做信用融資不用任何的保險我不是不支持我是支持我的意思是說那這個東西是不是要再修法不用保險法120條這個規定不需要對"},{"start":303.272,"end":329.763,"text":"原來的規定是向保險人借款原來就向受險借款那你現在說不只銀行也可以比如說可能是A公司藍山的保單可以去向比如說富邦銀行舉例五大國泰、富邦、星光、藍山、凱基五大受險就是有做財管的我知道你現在一直力推財富管理的部分我看得出金管會的彭主委的想法這個我們也是很支持只是說你這個東西不用修法是吧"},{"start":330.203,"end":344.789,"text":"不用 這個是跟委員打個比方比如說今天銀行要借你錢他如果你個人信用很好的話其實什麼抵押品都不需要假設你今天比如說你今天想去什麼抵押品都不需要很少"},{"start":345.489,"end":369.417,"text":"就是信用放款比如說你今天來講的話我想去這個拿一個比如說我的有價證券來做擔保只要銀行接受我覺得我就可以所以你認為這個不用修法就銀行的因為現在的現在來講保單要直接的話必須當然是像原來的這個保險公司保險人這一方面沒關係你們要這樣解釋我也不要就是說你在法律的部分要注意這個"},{"start":370.537,"end":392.607,"text":"跟現行的法規有沒有符合如果要的話也必須要依法來辦那另外一個是說你們現在的開放方向是高資產階層嘛目的是為什麼只有開放高資產因為一般百姓呢就叫事辦的意思事辦就是說我們希望現在我們先了解一下這個業務所產生的一些的效益跟風險會是什麼因為我們不想"},{"start":393.487,"end":420.202,"text":"因為高資產的客戶他風險承受率比較高承擔人力比較高啦對一定是先從這個開始如果我們事辦的結果良好沒有其他的問題的話我們再會擴展到其他就是普遍的大眾就對了這個是我們也是在做一種如果他是符合法令的就沒有所謂事辦啊就任何人都可以做啊你了解我意思嗎如果法令沒有不許的話那我不管是你是高資產還是我是一般資產的就誰都可以做啊"},{"start":421.082,"end":446.677,"text":"這我已經講的沒錯但是法令這兩個字有兩個層次一個叫做法律一個叫做令是這樣嗎法令一個另外一個就是很多我們的行政規則很多的其他的監管的層次這個東西呢我們在事辦的時候所以現在也是不允許的嘛是因為你們可能打算用一個函令來解釋這個東西對因為這個部分我就以法規而言你這個順序也要有行政規則上面或是治理規範很多是可能暫時沒辦法做的但是我們用一個有限範圍的開放"},{"start":447.958,"end":452.118,"text":"然後再一個能夠承擔高風險如果是有先放開放表示現在是不允許的嗎"},{"start":453.125,"end":479.689,"text":"對 現在就是 它只是不是法律層次的問題只是說你覺得不要用修法的方式只能用行政函式啊 或一個事辦規則啊 什麼這一類的位階比較低的方式來做一些好好的因為我是支持彭主委一向往開放的方向走啦不管是我們說這個中小企啊 募資啊 或者是新創啊這些我們都非常支持啊這個我也 我也是支持只是說你這個開辦的期間大概你預計事辦多久我們現在的所有的事辦大概我們都以六到一年為原則啦六到一"},{"start":480.089,"end":505.186,"text":"六個月到一年六個月是個觀察期我們就看他情況如果說事辦成效良好就是說比如說那可能就會開放到一般的客戶就逐步開放到按照風險承受跟他那這個下去可能會有產生一些問題就是說那到時候發生如果沒有辦法融資他直接沒有辦法償還的時候那那個債權優先順序是銀行比如說我拿我的保單去跟銀行借那這個到時候債權的順序問題還有我的保單的效率會變成是什麼樣"},{"start":510.45,"end":527.391,"text":"就是說到時候會有相關的這個議題可能你們就必須要重視你知道我的意思嗎我的保單拿去直接的吧那我現在我後來又還不起那還不起的話那這個保單的這個就會被押走就會被這個我的就是融資方拿走"},{"start":528.612,"end":547.643,"text":"那這樣子的話你現在開放就只有銀行嘛對不對對做一個這個好那接著還有保險的效率問題喔這個可能有很多高資產的客戶我知道我知道那高資產的客戶定義是用銀行來定義的是嗎就是說哪一些銀行銀行這五家嘛財管這五家他們定義的高資產客戶嗎所以是由他們來決定哪些人是嗎"},{"start":548.823,"end":570.27,"text":"或者說你有一個標準我們高資產客戶有一個標準三千萬以上高資產客戶的標準是什麼呢一億以上一億是指保單一億以上嗎不含不動產就是說你是指保單嗎一張保單一億以上嗎不是就是這個人的資產他的資產當然有些銀行會更高有他的資產除了不動產以外你明確定義了嗎就這個個人個人資產在"},{"start":574.331,"end":596.131,"text":"1億元以上 不管它是現金存款 金融資產 股票 不含不動產不含不動產 不動產也有 借也有也有借的啊 也有跟銀行融資出來 不含不動產銀行不動產的借跟不管是融資什麼這些都不算那要不要扣掉不動產借貸的金額啊 還是是淨資產啊"},{"start":598.913,"end":613.063,"text":"這個銀行都知道我們在財富管理2.0的規範都清楚沒有 我只是想知道說這個規定是由銀行來決定還是說就是我們金融會有同一個標準那接下來銀行自己會決定OK 怎麼樣 銀行決定我們有第一個最低的標準往上你可以自己決定比如說你要服務什麼樣的客戶"},{"start":613.863,"end":636.228,"text":"有一個最低標準但這標準是由你們決定因為每家銀行可能對高資產客戶的定義不一樣我是鼓勵當然對金融我看黃志偉上任以來對很多包括像我剛剛高齡的這個也是有開放跟以前黃志偉時代也是有不一樣那我們對於我對於我們的這個我們國內這些金融的產品或各方面我覺得的確是有些東西是比較"},{"start":637.335,"end":653.294,"text":"不那麼開放不那麼進步我也是鼓勵很多東西是創新進步我們都支持那下去如果說但是如果有依法要注意的部分也是要注意尤其後面有權利判格的部分的時候包括融資銀行跟這個保單效益這個可能也要特別注意"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":902,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（12時1分）謝謝主席，請彭主委。"],["主席：好，請彭主委。","主席在這邊宣布，我們現在開放在現場用餐。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：主委，本席在前兩次會期都有跟您詢問過，針對研議民間版的創櫃機制，金管會也回復在104年起已經開放證券商得經營股權性質群眾募資業，成效有三家新創公司，那時候回復的募資金額有新臺幣1,700萬元，這是上次回復的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：轉眼間又是一個會期了，半年又過去了，請問現在的募資績效有沒有增加？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我……"],["陳委員玉珍：證期局喔？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們了解一下再跟委員報告。"],["陳委員玉珍：你現在告訴我啊！證期局，成效呢？1,700萬，又過了半年，有沒有再增加？"],["張局長振山：目前是沒有增加的。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有增加，為什麼？你們不認真做這個嗎？"],["張局長振山：沒有，櫃買中心其實有在做這個業務，他們有鼓勵或者把法規做出來……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你們不重視這個民間版的創櫃機制募資業務喔？還是你們的做法是錯誤的？"],["張局長振山：我們當然重視這個機制……"],["陳委員玉珍：重視怎麼會沒有成效呢？"],["張局長振山：現在所謂的創櫃板，我們有做一個……"],["陳委員玉珍：你看，為了扶植中小微型企業，你們證期局有最新的函令解釋，通過限定綜合證券商可以投資創櫃板登板期間發行的新股，投資總金額不得超過券商淨值5%，且不受標的公司單次發行總額10%的限制。這個是比較新的新聞，可見金管會在彭主委過來以後，我都感覺很多金融的措施有要創新、有要前進，雖然你們修了這些、修了那些，好像整個成效都很差，以這個募資來講，我們講了兩個會期，上個會期1,700萬到現在還是沒有啊，你也知道我很關心這個議題啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：成效差我們會虛心檢討。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們一直跟你們提，你們的股權群募平臺是不是也要有新的做法？我一直在講，比如說中小企業開發公司跟新創企業來做募資平臺，你們有創新處嘛，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：把中小企業開發公司、櫃買找來，是不是一起來想看看要怎麼做啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們一定會努力的，只是現在有一些法規、法律上面的限制，我們要來突破。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道金管會一直想突破很多法，我覺得您上來後有很多相關法令都一直在突破……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是我覺得你下面的單位好像對這些事情都不太認真。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也不能這麼說，因為主要是……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們看結果嘛，上個會期的1,700萬，這樣算金金額嗎？從上個會期到現在，我現在跟你請求，我一直在講，因為中小企業是經濟部在管嘛……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：也有相關的公司有新創企業，他們也有創新署，你們也有創新處嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：這些相關單位是不是一起來開個會啊？是不是可以集思廣益，看到底要怎麼做啊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以，這沒問題啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：我們已經建議很多回了，你們都被動不前進啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：也不是啦！如果這個問題能夠解決、好解決的話，早解決了！"],["陳委員玉珍：所以就是沒有努力在……"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，這問題一定有其複雜度，所以我覺得可以再來討論……"],["陳委員玉珍：找時間大家來開會吧？這問題我們已經問了一年多，彭主委上來後，有很多觀念都比較新，包括等一下要講的高齡保單的部分也開放了……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們的想法是，正確又能夠做的事我們當然會儘量來完成。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個我們會繼續盯。"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：接著講另外幾點，證期局聽到沒？績效真的很差，這半年來都沒有任何成長，表示你們根本不用心，1,700萬等於跟沒有一樣，等於沒有任何進步，其實不進則退，所以應該算是退步！","我們來討論一下保險法。你們有研究要放寬、放行保單質借，對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：銀行的部分。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，就是放行給銀行可以做質借業務。"],["彭主任委員金隆：依法保險公司現在就可以做。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，但現在可以向銀行質借。"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以作為授信標的，只要銀行在風控可以接受的情況下。"],["陳委員玉珍：這跟現行保險法是否有牴觸？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有！這就好像銀行在做融資時會有自己的考量，比如最極端的可以做信用融資，不用任何擔保品……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有牴觸是不是？我並非不支持，我是支持的。我的意思是，這需不需要再修法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不用。"],["陳委員玉珍：修正保險法第一百二十條的規定？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不需要。"],["陳委員玉珍：原來規定是向保險人借款，也就是原來是向壽險借款，現在則不只，銀行也可以，比如說可能是A公司、南山的保單，可以向國泰、富邦、新光、南山、凱基五大壽險銀行，有做財管的銀行……我知道你一直在力推財富管理，我看得出金管會彭主委的想法，這點我們也很支持，只是這東西不用修法嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不用。跟委員打個比方，比如銀行要借你錢，如果你個人信用很好的話，其實什麼抵押品都不需要。但假設你今天……"],["陳委員玉珍：什麼抵押品都不需要？這很少吧……"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實就是信用放款。"],["陳委員玉珍：一個額度？"],["彭主任委員金隆：比如我想用有價證券來做擔保，只要銀行接受，我覺得就可以……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你認為不用修法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：以銀行的風險管理實務……"],["陳委員玉珍：現在保單要質借的話必須向原來的保險公司保險人……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，現在是這樣。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係，你們要這樣解釋我也沒有……只是在法律上你們要注意這點。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：是不是跟現行法規符合，如果要的話，也必須依法辦理。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝，確實不會有法律問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：另外，你們現在的開放方向是高資產階層？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：為什麼只有開放高資產階層？一般百姓呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：所謂的試辦意思就是，我們希望先了解一下這項業務所產生的一些效益跟風險會是什麼？因為高資產客戶風險承受力比較高……"],["陳委員玉珍：能力比較高……"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以一定先從這裡開始，如果試辦結果良好，沒有其他問題的話，我們會再擴展到其他人。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是普遍大眾？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們也是在做一種……"],["陳委員玉珍：如果符合法令的話，就沒有所謂的試辦，也就是任何人都可以……"],["彭主任委員金隆：法令有很多……"],["陳委員玉珍：你了解我意思嗎？如果法令沒有不許的話，那麼不管高資產或一般資產，誰都可以做！"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員講的沒錯，但「法令」這兩個字有兩個層次，一個叫做法律……"],["陳委員玉珍：一個叫做法，一個叫做令，是這樣嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是一個，另外就是很多的行政規則及其他的監管層次，我們在試辦……"],["陳委員玉珍：現在也是不允許的？所以你們打算用函令來解釋？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，因為這部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：用法規來看，順序也要有……"],["彭主任委員金隆：以行政規則或是自律規範來說，有很多可能暫時沒辦法做，但我們在有限範圍內開放，然後在能夠承擔高風險……"],["陳委員玉珍：如果是有限範圍內開放的話，表示現在是不允許的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，現在就是……不是法律層次的問題……"],["陳委員玉珍：你覺得不要用修法方式來處理，而是用行政函釋或試辦規則這類位階比較低的方式來做？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然。"],["陳委員玉珍：我支持彭主委往開放的方向走……"],["彭主任委員金隆：會在風險可控的情況之下。"],["陳委員玉珍：不管是中小企業或募資或新創，這些我們都非常支持，今天講的我也支持，請問開辦時間與預計試辦時間是多久？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在的所有試辦都以六個月到一年為原則……"],["陳委員玉珍：六個月到一年？"],["彭主任委員金隆：六個月是個觀察期，我們會看情況……"],["陳委員玉珍：如果試辦成效良好，可能就會開放到一般的客戶？"],["彭主任委員金隆：按照風險承受來逐步開放……"],["陳委員玉珍：但這樣下去可能會有產生一些問題，譬如沒有辦法融資，質借無法償還的話，屆時債權優先順序是銀行？比如我拿保單去跟銀行借錢，到時候會有債權的順序問題嗎？還有，保單的效力會變成怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這就要回到保險法……"],["陳委員玉珍：到時候相關的議題出現，你們必須重視。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然……"],["陳委員玉珍：你知道我的意思嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我知道。"],["陳委員玉珍：我的保單拿去質借、質押了，結果我後來還不起；還不起的話，質借的保單就會被拿走，也就是融資方拿走，這樣子的話……你現在只開放銀行，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，而且只對……"],["陳委員玉珍：接著，還有保險的效力問題……"],["彭主任委員金隆：高資產客戶。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道。高資產客戶的定義是由銀行定義，是嗎？也就是這五家財管銀行所定義的高資產客戶，即由他們來決定哪些人，是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有……"],["陳委員玉珍：或者你有一個標準，譬如3,000萬以上……"],["彭主任委員金隆：高資產客戶有標準……"],["陳委員玉珍：高資產客戶的標準是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：1億以上。"],["陳委員玉珍：1億以上？1億是指保單1億以上嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不含不動產。"],["陳委員玉珍：你是指保單嗎？一張保單1億以上嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：個人的資產。"],["陳委員玉珍：他的資產？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，有些銀行會更高。"],["陳委員玉珍：資產是除了不動產以外？所以你明確定義個人資產在1億元以上，不管是現金或存款……"],["彭主任委員金隆：主要是金融資產。"],["陳委員玉珍：金融資產，如股票且不含不動產？不動產也有拿去借的啊，也有銀行融資……"],["彭主任委員金隆：不含不動產。"],["陳委員玉珍：這都不算？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：不動產的借跟……跟銀行融資什麼的都不算？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這在我們那個……"],["陳委員玉珍：要不要扣掉不動產的借貸金額？還是淨資產？"],["彭主任委員金隆：財富管理2.0的規範相當清楚，銀行都知道……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有，我只是想知道這規定是由銀行決定，還是金管會有統一的標準？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有訂一個最低的標準，接下來銀行自己會決定。"],["陳委員玉珍：銀行決定？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有訂定最低標準，往上可以自己決定，比如要服務什麼樣的客戶。"],["陳委員玉珍：有最低標準，但這標準是由你們決定？畢竟每家銀行可能對高資產客戶的定義不一樣。彭主委上任以來對很多業務，譬如開放高齡客戶，跟以前黃主委時代不一樣。對於國內這些金融產品或其他各方面，我覺得有些東西的確不是那麼開放，也不那麼進步。我鼓勵很多東西，譬如創新、進步，這些我們都支持。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員的鼓勵跟支持。"],["陳委員玉珍：但依法要注意的部分也是要注意，尤其後面有權益扞格時，包括銀行融資跟保單效益都要特別注意。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員。","接著請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","黃珊珊","羅智強","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","黃國昌","陳玉珍","王世堅","林思銘","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","徐富癸","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「保險法」15案：一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員\n王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人\n分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案；二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第\n一百二十三條之一條文草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等\n19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百\n七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案","agenda_id":"1144301_00006"}}},{"id":"160804","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160804","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369ad3893e31fa0c1fe8b6df88a6e7dffca98ab4b80bc74e67dd354354e2f17e0785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:58:22 - 12:06:28","影片長度":"00:08:06","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場(廠)墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:58:22+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:06:28+08:00","duration":486,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.17471875,"end":26.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.69346875,"end":27.874718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.60034375,"end":29.410343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.58659375,"end":37.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.08409375,"end":40.665968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.16409375,"end":39.180968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.84721875,"end":42.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.298468750000005,"end":44.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.627218750000004,"end":47.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.59721875,"end":49.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.91346875,"end":51.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.10721875,"end":53.220968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.01409375,"end":56.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.74784375,"end":60.190343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.15221875,"end":62.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.39659375,"end":63.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.52721875,"end":70.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.73284375,"end":73.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.71971875,"end":77.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.70221875,"end":81.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.89159375,"end":83.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.96721875,"end":83.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.54096875,"end":86.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.00471875000001,"end":92.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.92784375000001,"end":102.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.78284375000001,"end":103.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.38596875,"end":106.56284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.96784375,"end":112.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.84034375,"end":121.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.27346875,"end":126.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.28534375000001,"end":131.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.97659375,"end":133.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.17034375,"end":140.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.19034375,"end":143.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.14346875,"end":145.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.64534375,"end":151.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.96909375,"end":162.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.62159375000002,"end":163.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.27534375000002,"end":165.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.06409375,"end":166.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.04284375,"end":168.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.57846875,"end":169.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.48534375,"end":171.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.42596875,"end":176.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.55596875,"end":178.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.32784375,"end":181.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.46659375000002,"end":182.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.41159375,"end":184.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.81221875,"end":185.68971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.61784375000002,"end":189.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.61721875,"end":191.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.84909375,"end":198.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.10534375,"end":206.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.32346875000002,"end":210.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.49596875,"end":219.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.50284375,"end":224.92409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.26159375,"end":229.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.42971875,"end":237.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.40721875000003,"end":238.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.06096875000003,"end":240.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.91721875000002,"end":245.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.66346875000002,"end":248.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.66284375,"end":249.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.03409375,"end":250.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.10159375,"end":253.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.15159375000002,"end":255.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.15971875,"end":258.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.48409375,"end":261.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.42034375000003,"end":263.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.87159375000005,"end":266.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.33096875,"end":269.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.68909375000004,"end":274.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.14846875,"end":278.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.46846875,"end":291.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.30159375,"end":293.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.06096875000003,"end":307.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.08409375,"end":330.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.64596875,"end":331.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.82721875000004,"end":331.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.67096875000004,"end":332.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.68784375,"end":336.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.02034375,"end":339.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.18034375,"end":341.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.91409375,"end":344.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.07409375000003,"end":346.49159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.86284375,"end":348.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.90471875000003,"end":350.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.09846875,"end":353.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.00096875,"end":355.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.66721875,"end":361.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.12221875,"end":362.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.55221875,"end":364.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.76721875000004,"end":369.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.30659375000005,"end":372.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.32284375,"end":377.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.94659375000003,"end":380.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.11909375000005,"end":381.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.18221875,"end":383.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.71346875,"end":386.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.12659375000004,"end":389.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.16409375,"end":394.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.61471875,"end":397.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.01096875,"end":400.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.25096875,"end":402.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.60909375,"end":405.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.31346875,"end":407.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.62971875000005,"end":411.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.98346875000004,"end":413.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.09284375000004,"end":415.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.70846875,"end":417.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.72096875000005,"end":421.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.49659375000005,"end":423.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.85909375,"end":425.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.02346875,"end":427.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.14971875000003,"end":429.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.07346875,"end":439.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.38409375000003,"end":441.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.99971875000006,"end":445.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.93596875000003,"end":450.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.58909375,"end":462.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.25409375000004,"end":463.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.80659375000005,"end":465.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.43909375000004,"end":467.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.39659375,"end":470.80971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.14721875000004,"end":485.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.57971875000004,"end":485.94659375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":25.439,"end":52.646,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請部長請部長這位部長好剛提到勞工的放假本來勞工的放假是在勞動部主管的法例裡面本來在那邊"},{"start":54.156,"end":81.107,"text":"是第九屆的立法院為了101修的時候把它修了就不能再依內政部的依內政部的規定是這樣是這樣來的而且那個這個是違反這個這個法律為什麼呢內政部現在所定的這個辦法所有的紀念節日的那個辦法"},{"start":81.943,"end":101.184,"text":"沒有法律的授權是違反行政程序法這是我們中華民國唯一大家一起適用的放假都是違反行政程序法沒有法律授權的法規命令這個是補充好今天很重要的這個議題這個"},{"start":104.494,"end":125.772,"text":"在五一勞動節明天我們今天在談勞工職場預防職業災害及廠場墜落事故的檢討與精進作為的一個專題報告非常非常重要的一個議題從今天勞動部的報告裡面也提到"},{"start":128.113,"end":132.277,"text":"場場墜落事故檢討及精進作為裡面的統計資料全國111年到113年重大職業災害死亡人數總共907人其中墜落有444人 佔48.9%"},{"start":153.015,"end":179.835,"text":"那營造業以營造業最多營造業墜落死亡302人佔68%為最高而原住民的勞工最多的就是在這個營造業所以我們常常會接到這樣的一個鄉親不幸的事件然後要常常去協助協調"},{"start":183.655,"end":206.266,"text":"這些我們的勞工相關的這些死亡的無論是職債的賠償還是勞工沒有勞保這些相關很多很多的問題所以我們深深的去了解這些我們的一個鄉親的痛苦"},{"start":207.426,"end":214.473,"text":"所以在這麼高的比例,營造業每年墜落造成近百人死亡,佔營造業職災死亡人數60%至70%"},{"start":220.56,"end":247.277,"text":"所以你這邊提出的分析原因以建築工程勞工以電梯井施工價及屋頂修繕等場所當然這只是舉例指示這其實是很多元的一個造成的一個相關的這些原因所以部長在這樣的一個情形之下去年也特別定為營造業打擊年"},{"start":250.204,"end":268.791,"text":"也表示勞動部確實也在重視這個部分但是怎麼樣去當然要先了解原因了解原因才能夠去解決這些怎麼樣去設法解決這些問題這個主要原因是哪些"},{"start":271.291,"end":290.361,"text":"跟各位說我們包括在法規上面在制度上面其實有強化的空間包括這些工地的文化層層轉包的責任的切分其實常常造成在究責上面的困難這第一個所以這部分我們提的修法那第二個確實我們也該"},{"start":294.285,"end":321.532,"text":"確實我們也看到其實有一些在這個工地公安的文化上面其實沒有落實的部分那也包括可能會有一些這個工地裡面管理那這個關於這個這個黃安衛他的投入不足的部分那也包括業主的這個責任其實照理來說業主在這裡面其實是有最多的這個營收可是他擔負的責任卻"},{"start":322.472,"end":343.789,"text":"很難追究這些部分我們都做了檢討所以我們也提了修法的計劃那我們也要有一些新的執行上面的做法好非常謝謝這個其實我一直是難以想像我因為我過去念大學的時候從台大大學"},{"start":345.391,"end":371.943,"text":"羅斯福路四段我禮拜六禮拜天就騎腳踏車到士林那時候士林正在開發我的舅舅是一個小包工去那邊我不會板磨我是不會我只會挑板磨挑板磨在這樣的一個那個年代的過程好像這個墜樓的事件發生意外的病反而不多"},{"start":373.356,"end":402.427,"text":"反而現在這個比例我覺得是很納悶以現在的工程技術包括設施設備應該都在精進才對啊怎麼又產生這些問題其實剛剛部長你有提到轉包又轉包是一個很重要的轉包又轉包一個大樓好了一個大樓一個公司"},{"start":404.676,"end":426.783,"text":"負責水泥的是一個轉包又轉包剩下雇主是要五六個三四個負責板模的又轉包又轉包負責鋼筋的轉包又轉包然後沒有沒有結合對不對就產生這些"},{"start":428.206,"end":450.305,"text":"我做板模的,釘板模的,就因為鋼筋的那個氣塊出了問題,我受害或是說板模的出了問題,鋼筋的受害,類似像這樣的所以這個部分,除了法之外,法律的,剛剛你有提到這個幾個幾個重要的部分"},{"start":452.174,"end":467.309,"text":"所以尤其是那個轉包那個轉包那個部分真的是一個需要特別解決的部分了因為時間的關係所以相關的就是郵箱臨時工派遣工以前的沒有的東西現在都有了派遣工"},{"start":468.664,"end":485.364,"text":"所以類似像這樣的 所以這個部分一併的來加強雖然你們已經把草案送到行政院但是相關的這些需要再強化的部分能夠再強化好 謝謝委員的提醒 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":786,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時58分）主席、各位委員。有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。剛剛提到勞工的放假，本來勞工的放假是規範在勞動部主管的法律裡面，本來是這樣，是第9屆的立法院為了一例一休的修法把它改了，變成依內政部的規定，是這樣來的。而且這是違反法律的，為什麼？內政部現在所定的紀念日節日實施辦法沒有法律的授權，是違反行政程序法的，這是我們中華民國唯一大家一體適用的關於放假的法規命令都是違反行政程序法，沒有法律授權的法規命令，這個是補充。","今天這個是很重要的議題，明天是五一勞動節，我們今天在談勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）墜落事故之檢討與精進作為的專題報告，這是非常非常重要的一個議題。今天勞動部的報告裡面也提到，在場（廠）墜落事故之檢討及精進作為裡面，根據你們的統計資料，全國111年到113年重大職業災害死亡人數總共907人，其中墜落有444人，占48.9%，以營造業最多，營造業墜落死亡302人，占68%為最高，而原住民的勞工最多的就是在營造業，所以我們常常會接到這樣的一個鄉親不幸的事件，然後要常常去協助、協調這些勞工相關死亡的，無論是職災的賠償，還是勞工沒有勞保，很多這些相關的問題，所以我們深深地了解到我們這些鄉親的痛苦。","在這麼高的比例下，營造業每年墜落造成近百人死亡，占營造業職災死亡人數60%至70%，而你這邊提出的分析原因是，以建築工程勞工於電梯井、施工架及屋頂修繕等場所，當然這只是舉例，其實相關的原因是很多元的。部長，在這樣的情形之下，去年也特別定為營造業墜落打擊年，表示勞動部確實也在重視這個部分，當然要先了解原因，了解原因之後才能夠怎麼樣設法去解決這些問題，那主要原因是哪些？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們在法規上面、在制度上面其實有強化的空間，包括這些工地的文化、層層轉包責任的切分，其實常常造成在究責上面的困難，這是第一個，所以這部分我們提了修法；第二個，我們也確實看到有一些在工地工安的文化上面沒有落實的部分，包括可能有一些工地裡面的管理、環安衛投入不足的部分，也包括業主的責任，照理來說，業主在這裡面其實是有最多的營收，可是他擔負的責任卻很難追究，這些部分我們都做了檢討，所以我們提了修法的計畫，我們也要有一些新的執行上面的作法。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，非常謝謝。其實我一直是難以想像，因為我過去念大學的時候，禮拜六、禮拜天我就會從臺灣大學、羅斯福路四段騎腳踏車到士林，那時候士林正在開發，我的舅舅是一個小包工，去了那邊，我不會板模，我只會挑板模，在這樣一個年代的過程，好像墜落的事件、發生意外的反而不多，反而現在這個比例……我覺得很納悶，以現在的工程技術，包括設施、設備，應該都在精進才對，怎麼又產生這些問題？其實剛剛部長有提到轉包又轉包，這是很重要的一點，轉包又轉包，一個大樓、一個公司，負責水泥的是一個，轉包又轉包，剩下雇主，是有五六個、三四個，負責板模的轉包又轉包，負責鋼筋的轉包又轉包，然後沒有結合，對不對？就產生這些情況啊！我是做板模的、釘板模的，就因為鋼筋那個區塊出了問題，我受害了，或是說負責板模的出了問題，負責鋼筋的受害，類似像這樣的情況。所以這個部分除了法之外，剛剛你有提到幾個重要的部分，尤其是轉包又轉包那個部分，真的是一個需要特別解決的部分。因為時間的關係，所以相關的，像臨時工、派遣工，以前都沒有的東西，現在都有了，像派遣工，類似像這樣的，所以這個部分要一併來加強，雖然你們已經把草案送到行政院，但是相關這些需要再強化的部分，希望能夠再強化。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝委員的提醒，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員、謝謝部長。","接下來請麥玉珍委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}},{"id":"160803","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160803","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423691405ff2b596918c8693dd611367b4ddd98ab4b80bc74e67d3f1c478c5b52ad615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:53:25 - 12:01:18","影片長度":"00:07:53","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查「保險法」15案：\n一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案。【後3案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第一百二十三條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:53:25+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T12:01:18+08:00","duration":473,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.81971875,"end":6.342218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.050968750000001,"end":8.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.109718750000003,"end":11.860343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.552218750000002,"end":13.868468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.695343750000003,"end":15.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.26471875,"end":17.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.37409375,"end":19.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.94346875,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.664718750000002,"end":22.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.250968750000002,"end":24.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.80346875,"end":27.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.21221875,"end":29.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.71409375,"end":31.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.739093750000002,"end":32.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.072218750000005,"end":34.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.337843750000005,"end":35.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.85659375,"end":37.611593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.354093750000004,"end":38.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.65346875,"end":40.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.336593750000006,"end":42.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.95221875,"end":46.454093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.500343750000006,"end":48.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.744718750000004,"end":51.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.242218750000006,"end":55.313468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.87034375,"end":56.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.31721875,"end":61.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.35034375,"end":63.953468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.47221875000001,"end":65.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.53534375000001,"end":68.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.47159375000001,"end":70.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.41221875000001,"end":72.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.72846875,"end":74.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.61409375000001,"end":76.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.40284375,"end":79.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.42784375000001,"end":83.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.83221875000001,"end":85.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.21159375,"end":87.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.11846875,"end":91.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.79284375,"end":93.56909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.46346875,"end":103.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.41971875,"end":107.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.94659375,"end":112.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.13971875,"end":141.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.54034375,"end":142.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.55721875,"end":147.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.73784375,"end":153.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.37409375000001,"end":154.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.55534375000002,"end":154.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.75784375,"end":154.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.84221875,"end":154.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.97721875000002,"end":157.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.93034375000002,"end":164.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.38159375,"end":159.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.96721875,"end":165.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.23721875,"end":171.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.34159375000002,"end":178.95659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.95659375000002,"end":180.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.99846875,"end":188.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.15409375000002,"end":189.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.89596875,"end":189.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.38096875000002,"end":192.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.06409375,"end":195.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.91596875000002,"end":198.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.07159375,"end":201.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.64909375000002,"end":206.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.47534375,"end":220.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.93034375000002,"end":213.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.35534375,"end":219.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.59159375000002,"end":219.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.04721875,"end":220.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.05971875,"end":223.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.11409375000002,"end":224.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.27846875,"end":227.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.97846875000002,"end":240.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.26346875000002,"end":242.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.71034375000002,"end":249.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.30409375000002,"end":253.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.18534375000002,"end":255.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.98221875,"end":258.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.53034375000004,"end":267.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.87534375,"end":267.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.18284375,"end":273.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.59159375,"end":275.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.08909375,"end":279.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.72159375,"end":285.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.76784375,"end":280.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.60659375,"end":293.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.35659375,"end":295.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.99721875,"end":297.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.01409375000003,"end":298.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.74784375,"end":308.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.03346875,"end":316.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.88909375000003,"end":317.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.71971875,"end":317.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.73659375,"end":318.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.05721875,"end":322.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.78221875,"end":323.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.33471875000004,"end":325.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.53721875,"end":354.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.30284375,"end":339.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.08096875,"end":355.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.97534375000004,"end":356.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.16096875,"end":356.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.49846875000003,"end":356.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.25784375,"end":359.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.76784375,"end":362.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.02909375,"end":369.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.28534375000004,"end":371.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.44971875000005,"end":377.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.11159375,"end":376.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.03534375000004,"end":377.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.06909375000004,"end":378.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.97596875000005,"end":382.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.40159375,"end":383.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.19034375,"end":387.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.93659375000004,"end":389.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.24846875000003,"end":391.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.29034375000003,"end":392.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.07909375,"end":395.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.93096875000003,"end":399.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.32284375,"end":402.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.95534375000005,"end":404.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.89596875,"end":413.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.07596875,"end":414.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.49346875000003,"end":416.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.65346875,"end":418.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.25221875000005,"end":421.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.88471875000005,"end":424.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.36534375,"end":426.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.59284375000004,"end":428.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.73596875000004,"end":435.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.08534375000005,"end":435.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.46909375,"end":440.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.56971875000005,"end":443.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.04596875000004,"end":445.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.02471875000003,"end":445.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.59409375,"end":454.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.94721875000005,"end":455.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.09909375,"end":456.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.03971875,"end":458.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.96346875,"end":463.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.43534375,"end":463.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.14409375,"end":464.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.17784375,"end":473.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.94034375,"end":472.98659375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.997,"end":13.293,"text":"主委好 詐騙洗錢已經成為所有台灣人的痛我們從去年開始在處理有關於打詐的事法整個過程當中"},{"start":16.322,"end":40.474,"text":"虛擬貨幣成為洗錢的工具早就不是新聞了這也是為什麼去年的時候我們不斷的要求行政機關對於虛擬貨幣要採行必要的高度管制否則的話這個狀況越來越多人受害結果沒想到今年"},{"start":44.997,"end":73.894,"text":"最新的狀況是必享科技跟詐團勾結洗錢每個月洗錢的金額上億元上億元發生了這個案子以後大家開始關心我們虛擬貨幣的管制到底做到什麼樣子的程度我們下去看發現荒腔走板到"},{"start":75.9,"end":91.345,"text":"說啊全台唯一授權通過金管會的洗錢防治聲明這不是笑話嗎這不是笑話嗎通過金管會的洗錢防治聲明然後呢然後呢"},{"start":94.502,"end":112.114,"text":"通過金管會的洗錢防治聲明代表什麼意義可不可以逐位跟社會大眾說明一下說這個聲明其實毫無意義啦他自我聲明啊自我表彰啊現實上面啊根本沒有辦法發揮任何管制的效果"},{"start":114.438,"end":140.705,"text":"這跟委員說明一下就是也趁這個機會謝謝委員提供這個對外說明的機會我想金管會過去在行政院的分工下面他就指定今晚會是做投資跟支付目的的虛擬資產的主政單位當然第一步先從洗錢房子的開始所以我們第一步是用由他們進行洗房聲明開始這只是說他們先停一下這就是我的問題"},{"start":142.574,"end":156.436,"text":"通過了這個洗錢防治聲明剛剛主委的意思是這是他們的自我聲明嗎不是 先他願意做這件事情以後對啊但是我們現在已經進沒有沒有 主委不好意思喔什麼叫做他願意做這個聲明"},{"start":158.713,"end":180.391,"text":"我做這個聲明毫無代價毫無成本啊我出一張嘴啊我們在過去的時候我們對石家的這個東西進行檢查我們也採處採罰其實我們也不是說完全只是聲明就沒有任何的作為來你告訴大家這個聲明有什麼具體的效果"},{"start":181.736,"end":205.737,"text":"這個我們可不可以請檢察局來跟委員報告一下好來 這個聲明到底有什麼具體的效果現在大家看到業者跟詐騙集團勾結的業者拿著有通過你們的聲明來這邊欺騙消費大眾創造自己是一個合法的業者我是一個合法的生意的外觀跟表彰"},{"start":207.763,"end":224.636,"text":"讓更多的人什麼 讓更多的人相信他如果主委認為這不是業者單獨的自我聲明有實際的管制效果那就跟大家報告你實際的管制效果是什麼那我們請我們檢察局局長來跟各位說明一下 謝謝好 請局長"},{"start":225.285,"end":248.482,"text":"好 謝謝 那就是說檢察局在112年檢查這四家的這個這個弊傷比較大的規模這四家弊傷的檢查結果那我們棋局這邊已經做了一個裁罰的部分那至於說等一下 什麼時候做的檢查112年的第四季那我們的檢查報告也都有給這個棋局什麼時候"},{"start":250.396,"end":255.318,"text":"什麼時候做了裁罰在113年的時候113年什麼時候在政經局這邊也有對這四家比較大規模的幣商已經做了這個裁罰罰了多少錢罰了150萬左右罰了150萬喔你們覺得有什麼效果嗎"},{"start":277.022,"end":293.491,"text":"另外也報告委員就是說如果有涉及到我先確認一下剛你說去年有裁判的包括這個碧翔科技嘛對不起碧翔科技是還沒有檢查是今年在114年在這個禮拜一有去派員去對嘛所以我就請你針對問題回答嘛大家看到的是什麼"},{"start":299.995,"end":323.856,"text":"這跟詐騙集團勾結的洗錢集團非常囂張啊在網頁上面啊用通過金管會的洗錢防治聲明在做廣告所以跟我們報告這並不代表說這個東西是我們所以嘛你就大聲的跟台灣社會講嘛通過什麼金管會的洗錢防治聲明不代表什麼啊It's nothing"},{"start":324.383,"end":347.321,"text":"但是我們現在沒有任何的意義但是我們現在已經進入到我們現在去做更嚴謹的登記制的管理我想這部分3月31號截止以後現在有31家來申請我們做嚴格的審查我想這個東西我們對虛擬制裁幣翔有提出申請嗎他有提出申請他在3月30號31號提出你們現在整個審核的過程到哪裡"},{"start":348.241,"end":369.139,"text":"現在就是我們大概已經受理了現在有31家我們會再嚴格來審查他們的條件主席站起來了我最後提醒兩件事第一個當詐騙這麼猖獗當虛擬貨物成為這些詐騙集團洗錢集團的工具的時候希望金管會"},{"start":370.356,"end":398.456,"text":"要有具體的作為這當然是我們現在努力的目標我們現在訂定那個虛擬生產管理專法沒有關係啦就是針對這個東西來處理你們是不是有具體的作為成效怎麼樣社會大眾會看嘛是 我們來努力第二個他現在要跟你們辦洗錢房制的登記嘛是的注意看一下他的負責人之前擔任公司的那個總經理是非法的入資在台灣設立的"},{"start":400.653,"end":428.788,"text":"我現在已經看不懂了早就被抓到了現在這個公司的負責人之前在擔任的是一個非法的入資在台灣設立公司的總經理但是呢暢通無阻繼續搞彷彿毫不設防一點影響都沒有一點影響都沒有這個是現在大家啦"},{"start":429.793,"end":445.038,"text":"沒有辦法理解的事情這是大家沒有辦法理解的事情第二件事情現在這家公司我就看不懂他部分的網站暫停營運部分的網站持續交易監管會有沒有掌握"},{"start":446.876,"end":472.743,"text":"這個我們已經有跟請檢察局跟檢調這邊來處理然後呢現在拿他沒批調沒有我們現在正在處理中正在處理當中啊這不肖的業者關了部分的網站當什麼上演法其他的部分繼續再搞希望金管會速度快一點可以嗎我們這個目標跟委員講是一樣我們一樣要來全力來阻止這件事情好謝謝謝謝國常委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":839,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時53分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請主委。"],["主席：是，主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：主委好。詐騙、洗錢已經成為所有臺灣人的痛，我們從去年開始在處理有關於打詐的四法，整個過程當中，虛擬貨幣成為洗錢的工具早就不是新聞了，這也是為什麼去年的時候，我們不斷地要求行政機關對於虛擬貨幣要採行必要的高度管制，否則的話，這個狀況越來越多人受害。結果沒想到今年最新的狀況是幣想科技跟詐團勾結洗錢，每個月洗錢的金額上億元，發生這個案子了以後，大家開始關心我們虛擬貨幣的管制到底做到什麼樣子的程度。我們下去看，發現荒腔走板到說全臺唯一授權，通過金管會的洗錢防制聲明，這不是笑話嗎？通過金管會的洗錢防制聲明，然後呢？通過金管會的洗錢防制聲明代表什麼意義？可不可以請主委跟社會大眾說明一下？說這個聲明其實毫無意義啦！他們自我聲明、自我表彰，現實上根本沒有辦法發揮任何管制效果。"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員說明一下，也趁這個機會謝謝委員提供給我對外說明的機會。金管會過去在行政院的分工下面是指定金管會做投資跟支付目的虛擬資產的主政單位，當然第一步先從洗錢防制開始，所以我們第一步是由他們進行洗防聲明開始，這只是說他們……"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下，這就是我的問題啊！通過了這個洗錢防制聲明，剛剛主委的意思是，這是他們的自我聲明嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：他們願意做這件事情以後……"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是我們現在已經進階到……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有、沒有，主委，不好意思喔！什麼叫做他們願意做這個聲明？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，他們要來申請……"],["黃委員國昌：我做這個聲明毫無代價、毫無成本啊！我出一張嘴啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：在過去的時候，我們對十家進行檢查，也進行裁處、裁罰，我們也不完全只是聲明就沒有任何的作為。"],["黃委員國昌：來，你告訴大家，這個聲明有什麼具體的效果？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我可不可以請檢查局來跟委員報告一下。"],["黃委員國昌：好，這個聲明到底有什麼具體的效果？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為我們查核到……"],["黃委員國昌：現在大家看到跟詐騙集團勾結的業者拿著你們通過的聲明來欺騙消費大眾，創造自己是一個合法的業者，用一個合法生意的外觀跟表彰讓更多人相信他……"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，所以這就是為什麼要更……"],["黃委員國昌：如果主委認為這不是業者單獨的自我聲明，有實際的管制效果，那就跟大家報告你們實際的管制效果是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們請檢查局局長來跟各位說明一下，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請局長。"],["賴局長欣國：謝謝，檢查局在112年對四家比較大規模的幣商進行檢查，針對這四家幣商的檢查結果，我們期局這邊已經做了裁罰，至於說……"],["黃委員國昌：等一下，什麼時候做了檢查？"],["賴局長欣國：112年的第四季，我們的檢查報告也都有給期局……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候做了裁罰？"],["賴局長欣國：在113年的時候。"],["黃委員國昌：113年的什麼時候？"],["賴局長欣國：證期局已經有對四家比較大規模的幣商做了裁罰，相關的……"],["黃委員國昌：罰了多少錢？"],["賴局長欣國：罰了150萬左右。"],["黃委員國昌：罰了150萬喔？"],["賴局長欣國：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你們覺得有什麼效果嗎？"],["賴局長欣國：報告委員，如果有涉及到……"],["黃委員國昌：不是嘛，我先確認一下，剛才你說去年有裁罰的包括幣想科技嘛！"],["賴局長欣國：對不起，幣想科技還沒有檢查，是今（114）年，在這個禮拜一有派員去……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，所以我就請你針對問題回答。"],["賴局長欣國：是。"],["黃委員國昌：大家看到的是什麼，跟詐騙集團勾結的洗錢集團非常囂張啊，在網頁上面用通過金管會的洗錢防制聲明做廣告。"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，所以這並不代表這個東西是我們背書，我們一定要強力的管理。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你就大聲的跟臺灣社會講，通過金管會的洗錢防制聲明不代表什麼啊！It's nothing.沒有任何的意義。"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是我們現在已經進入到做更嚴謹的登記制管理，這部分在3月31號截止以後，現在有31家來申請，我們會做嚴格的審查，我想這個東西我們對虛擬資產……"],["黃委員國昌：幣想有提出申請嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：他們有提出申請，在3月30號、31號有提出。"],["黃委員國昌：你們現在審核的過程到哪裡？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在我們已經受理的有31家，我們會嚴格審查他們的條件。"],["黃委員國昌：主席站起來了。我最後提醒兩件事，第一個，當詐騙這麼猖獗，虛擬貨物成為這些詐騙集團、洗錢集團的工具時，希望金管會要有具體的作為。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這當然是我們現在努力的目標，我們訂定虛擬資產管理專法就是針對這個東西來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦，你們是不是有具體的作為、成效怎麼樣，社會大眾會看嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們來努力。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個，他們現在要跟你們辦洗錢防制的登記……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：注意看一下，它的負責人之前擔任公司的總經理，他們是非法的陸資在臺灣設立，我現在已經看不懂了，他們早就被抓到了，現在這個公司的負責人是之前擔任非法陸資在臺灣設立公司的總經理，但是暢通無阻、繼續搞，彷彿毫不設防，一點影響都沒有，這個是現在大家沒有辦法理解的事情。第二件事情，現在我就看不懂，這家公司部分網站暫停營運，還有部分網站持續交易，金管會有沒有掌握？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們已經有請檢查局跟檢調這邊來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：然後呢？現在也拿他沒皮條？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我們現在正在處理中。"],["黃委員國昌：正在處理當中啊？這個不肖業者關了部分網站當障眼法，其他的部分繼續再搞，希望金管會速度快一點，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們的目標跟委員講的一樣，我們也一樣要全力阻止這件事情。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","接著請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","黃珊珊","羅智強","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","黃國昌","陳玉珍","王世堅","林思銘","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","徐富癸","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「保險法」15案：一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員\n王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人\n分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案；二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第\n一百二十三條之一條文草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等\n19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百\n七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案","agenda_id":"1144301_00006"}}},{"id":"160802","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160802","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369589c693017ba08d88b6df88a6e7dffcad78ea87b1712f88245705032a5a81be55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:49:25 - 11:58:11","影片長度":"00:08:46","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場(廠)墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:49:25+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:58:11+08:00","duration":526,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.907218750000002,"end":11.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.320343750000003,"end":12.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.69909375,"end":18.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.25159375,"end":35.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.73409375,"end":39.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.75471875,"end":85.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.63784375,"end":85.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.65471875,"end":86.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.44784375,"end":108.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.02659375,"end":126.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.55971875,"end":139.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.33096875,"end":133.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.03096875,"end":136.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.37221875,"end":139.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.38471875000002,"end":141.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.25346875,"end":147.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.50596875000002,"end":159.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.82534375,"end":156.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.66846875000002,"end":164.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.76534375,"end":162.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.06846875000002,"end":166.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.48596875,"end":166.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.87409375000001,"end":166.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.89096875,"end":169.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.79346875000002,"end":172.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.25721875000002,"end":177.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.83909375000002,"end":176.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.64471875,"end":177.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.65721875,"end":178.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.80909375000002,"end":180.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.37409375000001,"end":182.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.43284375000002,"end":185.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.69846875000002,"end":184.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.57159375,"end":187.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.78659375,"end":189.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.00971875000002,"end":191.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.35971875,"end":208.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.40846875000003,"end":204.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.10846875000001,"end":207.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.11659375000002,"end":214.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.06159375000001,"end":210.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.83284375000002,"end":216.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.91284375,"end":215.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.03096875,"end":217.73534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.84096875,"end":219.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.66346875000002,"end":230.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.10471875000002,"end":232.51784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.78784375,"end":236.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.14596875,"end":296.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.54221875000002,"end":241.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.95096875000002,"end":242.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.04346875000002,"end":244.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.94659375000003,"end":299.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.24159375,"end":302.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.75596875,"end":302.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.70096875,"end":305.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.13096875,"end":305.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.21534375000005,"end":305.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.28284375000004,"end":305.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.33346875,"end":309.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.71721875000003,"end":307.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.56096875000003,"end":307.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.52284375,"end":324.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.03971875,"end":322.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.00159375000004,"end":336.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.97971875,"end":328.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.73784375,"end":336.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.90659375,"end":345.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.92346875000004,"end":336.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.58034375,"end":345.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.59721875,"end":415.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.48909375000005,"end":419.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.48846875000004,"end":421.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.85534375000003,"end":427.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.62659375000004,"end":432.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.22096875000005,"end":435.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.00971875000005,"end":434.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.25846875,"end":442.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.99971875000006,"end":462.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.60846875000004,"end":465.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.59534375000004,"end":476.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.54284375000003,"end":480.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.06971875000005,"end":489.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.62596875,"end":486.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.97971875,"end":490.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.06409375000004,"end":500.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.06284375,"end":512.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.96346875,"end":521.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.21909375,"end":525.3159687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.162,"end":12.144,"text":"謝謝主席 陽泉發言 邀請部長請部長兩位人好部長好 部長今天的議題墜落打擊年我想這個是大家都非常非常的關心勞動部也將去年是定位為營造墜落打擊年那目標呢 墜落的"},{"start":36.809,"end":50.837,"text":"上升人數是68人以下但最後是破功了因為我們統計的人數是85人那過去大多墜落死亡的人數大概都在100人左右所以首先要來請教"},{"start":52.638,"end":69.357,"text":"當然在公安職災的檢查預防跟處理上有許多的不足他這個問題當然也不是一日之寒那在這樣的情況之下本席要請教請教部長你認為關鍵的原因到底是什麼呢因為"},{"start":71.48,"end":85.332,"text":"營造公安跟墜落死亡如果沒有辦法改善這個會影響的很多的一個效能所以請教你認為到目前為止關鍵的原因是什麼那麼我們又如何有改善的方案請說說明"},{"start":86.953,"end":108.235,"text":"根文說根文報告確實去年的原本的目標是沒有達到這必須我們必須承認那但是他還是有些微幅的下降那可是在目標的達成上面我是覺得我們應該更盡力那在這個更盡力的做法裡面我們自己也看到有幾個情況有些是制度面上面的問題包括法規面上的不足"},{"start":109.116,"end":125.823,"text":"那也有一些是落實層面上面包括是現在有一些工程如果他有趕工的狀況其實常常他在這個資安位的部分他其實就會比較疏漏所以這些情況我覺得我們都必須綜合來考慮把它作為我們要改善的策略"},{"start":126.618,"end":141.095,"text":"那怎麼改善呢你很好你可以提出目前的面向問題點在哪裡那你已經提出了那你要怎麼改善呢所以本席請問的是你關鍵的原因你提出了如何改善在制度面上的"},{"start":142.376,"end":164.634,"text":"不足法規上不足的部分我們現在已經提出了修法的計畫跟草案你這個修法的計畫呢你預計什麼時候可以出來你們提出了這個職業安全衛生法我們已經送行政院的要嚴重的這個來這個罰則嘛那個跟我們說明我們已經送行政院的預計希望這個會籍就送到立法院"},{"start":165.294,"end":189.341,"text":"這一個會期你的這個會期是到什麼時候呢這個會期延會到7月底啊所以你的意思是到7月底我們現在才4月30號耶你送到行政院你什麼時候送行政院這個禮拜我們已經送到行政院了已經送出去了嗎因為明天是5月1號耶這個禮拜我們已經送到行政院所以你是這個禮拜什麼時候送出去的"},{"start":190.063,"end":214.543,"text":"我們其實昨天已經送到行政院你就昨天送出行政院很好加油那你預計什麼時候可以送出來因為你今天昨天你是4月29號那你如果說要到7月30號才會出委員會那這個我會緊張勞工也會緊張委員不是這個意思我的意思是說我們已經送到行政院但是現在要進入到行政院的法治程序"},{"start":214.983,"end":232.275,"text":"當然他有程序你要去加油啊你要去溝通啊我們一直在跟行政院溝通所以我們預計是希望在五月或者是這個五月之間的前後希望能夠趕快送到立法院你這麼講我只知道稍稍可以"},{"start":232.935,"end":256.859,"text":"可以安心一點點也就是希望下個月可以行政院出來送到立法院對 因為我們已經送到行政院了所以你們必須要去加油這個是大家非常關注的一個議題因為我們知道呢國際勞工組織呢將人人享有安全衛生工作環境呢是視為勞工基本的一個人權那依照主席總署告訴我們台灣營造業就業人口約有120萬人"},{"start":262.74,"end":279.989,"text":"120萬人裡頭的七成二也就是86萬人都是基層技術工的勞工每一個公安意外每一個數字它的背後都是一個生命跟一個家庭所以你們提出的這一點我希望"},{"start":280.529,"end":295.408,"text":"你要繼續加油跟行政院趕快溝通下個月趕快送到立法院來那你認為我們現在已經修法在進行式當中你認為預期效果會如何你認為能夠下降多少人數請教"},{"start":296.977,"end":323.23,"text":"我想不是很容易估說一個修法後面你們做一個修法一定有你的KPI指數你大概的方向到底是怎麼樣因為你一定有目標嘛才會提出這樣的修法第一個是修法部分是在法制制度上面做出一個強化但是就像我們也在研擬說法制就算修了或者現在法也有可是還是有一些部分在落實的層面上我們必須要再更"},{"start":323.49,"end":344.94,"text":"通過之後我們在落實的時候我們的辦法還是要出來啊你怎麼樣的監督機制落實這些除了宣傳除了稽查這些都是必要相關的配套我們會盡力做然後我們當然希望在這個死亡的人數上或者是重大職災人數上面有一個更顯著的進步"},{"start":345.66,"end":373.641,"text":"好 你一個更顯速的進步我也希望我們能夠達到那接下來本席要跟你討論還是過勞之島還勞工假政府的表態那之前本席在這個總質詢的時候也跟你討論過也跟院長討論過那你當時回答本席我非常高興你回答說台灣工時有改善的空間那減少工時的有效方案之一"},{"start":374.661,"end":397.183,"text":"最直接的就是恢復我們過去砍的國定假日因為我們都知道我們比日韓這個時間我們都比較少這也是勞團團體長期的一個訴求當時你在當任立委的時候或者是你對這方面的努力你也都參與其中所以部長國民黨的法案在"},{"start":397.663,"end":419.375,"text":"委員會裡頭已經都有討論過而且送出委員會國民黨增加的五天的國定假日現在是等待協商的這個階段那麼行政院跟執政黨呢現在雖然還沒有版本但是我仍舊希望希望聽到你的方向你的立場請教支持嗎"},{"start":420.523,"end":436.173,"text":"跟委員說明因為國定假日相關的法規它的組的單位其實是內政部但是我們勞動部在這個過程裡面也都參與跟行政院當然你是非常重要的一個角色我們確實是認為國定假日的調整是有討論的正面討論的空間我們的態度一直是這樣"},{"start":443.058,"end":462.268,"text":"所以一直是這樣嘛 因為你在第十屆擔任立委的時候你也連署我們你們這個貴黨的這個民進黨的現在執政黨的委員的提案嘛所以目前為止你也是認為增加國定假日的這個修法是有討論的空間而且你贊同這個方向嘛"},{"start":462.879,"end":488.848,"text":"我覺得是這個議題是有真相正面討論的空間也就是支持那我再請教既然你身為勞動部長那為什麼我們的行政院不提版本有沒有預計要提版本我想這部分可能要問這個法規的主管機關那你擔任勞動部長你認為這個有討論空間你支不支持政府應該要有行政院版出來"},{"start":490.02,"end":511.892,"text":"我要說的是說因為你現在談的是法案那法案的本身就可能要問這可能要是你都是參與其中而且你以前擔任立委你也都連署過也提案過所以本席希望這你當然也給我本席一個正面的方向也就是這個有很"},{"start":513.374,"end":521.705,"text":"這個正面討論的空間非常好我也希望你能夠促成這也是老團長期最需要的一點好 加油"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":729,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時49分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。部長，今天的議題是「墜落打擊年」，我想這個是大家都非常非常關心的，勞動部也將去年定為「營造墜落打擊年」，目標是墜落喪生人數為68人以下，但最後破功了，因為最終統計死亡人數是85人，過去每年墜落死亡人數大多都在百人左右。所以首先要請教，當然，在工安職災的檢查、預防跟處理上有許多不足，這個問題也不是一日之寒，在這樣的情況下，本席要請教部長，你認為關鍵的原因到底是什麼呢？因為營造工安跟墜落死亡如果沒有辦法改善，會影響很多效能，所以請教你認為到目前為止，關鍵的原因是什麼？我們又有如何改善的方案？請說明。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員報告，確實去年原本的目標沒有達到，這個我們必須承認，但是死亡人數還是有些微幅下降，在目標的達成上，我覺得我們應該更盡力。在更盡力的作法裡面，我們自己也看到有幾個情況，有一些是制度面的問題，包括法規面上的不足；也有一些是在落實層面上，包括有一些工程如果有趕工的狀況，常常在職安衛的部分就會比較疏漏，這些情況我們都必須綜合來考慮，把它作為我們要改善的策略。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那怎麼改善呢？你很好，你可以提出目前的問題點、面向在哪裡……"],["洪部長申翰：好，第一個是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你已經提出了，那你要怎麼改善呢？所以本席請問的是，關鍵的原因你提出了，如何改善？"],["洪部長申翰：在制度面上、法規上不足的部分，我們現在已經提出修法的計畫跟草案，接下來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：職業安全衛生法的修法計畫，你預計什麼時候可以提出來？你們要修法加重罰則嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：我們已經送行政院了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你送行政院了，什麼時候可以出來？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們已經送行政院了，預計希望這個會期就送到立法院。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個會期？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的「這個會期」是到什麼時候呢？"],["洪部長申翰：這個會期延會到7月底。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你的意思是到7月底？我們現在才4月30號耶！你送到行政院，你什麼時候送行政院？"],["洪部長申翰：這個禮拜我們已經送到行政院了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：已經送出去了嗎？因為明天是5月1號。"],["洪部長申翰：送出去了，這個禮拜我們已經送到行政院。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你是這個禮拜什麼時候送出去的？"],["洪部長申翰：我們其實昨天已經送到行政院了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你就是昨天送出給行政院，很好，加油！那你預計什麼時候可以送出來，因為昨天是4月29號，如果你說要到7月30號才會出委員會，哇，那這樣我會緊張耶，勞工也會緊張耶！"],["洪部長申翰：委員，不是這個意思，我的意思是我們已經送到行政院，但現在要進入到行政院的法制程序。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然它有程序……"],["洪部長申翰：對，它是進入到行政院的法制程序……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要去加油啊！你要去溝通啊！"],["洪部長申翰：我們一直在跟行政院溝通，所以我們預計在5月或是5、6月前後之間，希望能夠趕快送到立法院。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：哇，你這麼講我就稍稍可以安心一點點，也就是希望下個月可以從行政院出來送到立法院？"],["洪部長申翰：對，因為我們已經送到行政院了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以你們必須要去加油……"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是大家非常關注的一個議題，我們知道國際勞工組織將人人享有安全衛生的工作環境視為勞工基本的人權。依照主計總處告訴我們，臺灣營造業的就業人口約有120萬人，120萬個勞工裡頭的七成二、也就是86萬人，都是基層的技術工，每一個工安意外數字的背後都是一個生命跟一個家庭。所以你們提出的這一點，我希望你要繼續加油，趕快跟行政院溝通，下個月趕快送到立法院來。現在修法已經在進行式當中，請教部長，你認為預期效果會如何？能夠下降多少人數？"],["洪部長申翰：我想我們不是很容易預估一個修法之後會下降多少人……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們提一個修法一定有你的KPI指數，你大概的方向到底是怎麼樣？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你一定有目標，才會提出這樣的修法。"],["洪部長申翰：是。第一個，修法是在法制制度上做出強化，但是就像我們也在研擬，法就算修了，或者現在法也有，可是還是有些在落實的層面上，我們必須要再更提高……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，法通過之後，我們在落實的時候，我們的辦法還是要出來……"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你有怎麼樣的監督機制能夠讓法令落實，除了宣傳，除了稽查，這些都是必要相關的配套辦法。"],["洪部長申翰：我們會盡力做，我們當然也希望在死亡人數或是重大職災的人數上有一個更顯著的進步。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你希望有一個更顯著的進步，我也希望我們能夠達到。","接下來本席要跟你討論的還是政府針對過勞之島、還勞工假的表態，之前本席在總質詢的時候也跟你討論過，也跟院長討論過，你當時的回答本席非常高興，你回答說臺灣工時有改善的空間。減少工時的有效方案之一，最直接的就是恢復我們過去砍掉的國定假日。我們都知道，我們的國定假日比日、韓都少，這也是勞動團體長期的訴求，當時你在擔任立委的時候，或者是你對這方面的努力，你也都參與其中。所以，部長，國民黨的法案在委員會裡已經都討論過而且送出委員會，國民黨增加5天的國定假日，現在在等待協商的階段，行政院跟執政黨現在雖然還沒有版本，但是我仍舊希望聽到你的方向、你的立場，請教部長，支持嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，國定假日相關法規的主責單位是內政部，但是我們勞動部在這個過程中也都參與跟行政院各部會溝通。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然你是非常重要的一個角色，你代表的是勞工嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們確實認為國定假日的調整有正面討論的空間，我們的態度一直是這樣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，一直是這樣嘛，因為你在第10屆擔任立委的時候，你也連署貴黨民進黨（現在執政黨）委員的提案，所以目前為止，你也認為增加國定假日的修法是有討論的空間，而且你贊同這個方向嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得這個議題有正面討論的空間。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有正面討論的空間，也就是支持。我再請教，既然你身為勞動部長，為什麼我們的行政院不提版本，有沒有預計要提版本？"],["洪部長申翰：我想這部分可能要問這個法規的主管機關。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你擔任勞動部長，你認為這部分有討論空間，你支不支持政府應該要就國定假日提出行政院版？"],["洪部長申翰：我要說的是，你現在談的是法案，那法案的本身這可能要問主管機關。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你都參與其中，而且你以前擔任立委的時候也都連署過、也提案過，所以本席希望，當然你也給本席一個正面的回答，也就是這部分有正面討論的空間，非常好，我也希望你能夠促成，這也是勞團長期最需要的一點。加油！"],["主席：謝謝楊委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員不在。","請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}},{"id":"160800","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160800","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369a6abf352a0c6c89c693dd611367b4dddd78ea87b1712f882ce221ba616d86ab85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:42:18 - 11:53:19","影片長度":"00:11:01","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查「保險法」15案：\n一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案。【後3案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第一百二十三條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:42:18+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:53:19+08:00","duration":661,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.10221875,"end":12.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.19784375,"end":13.379093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.68284375,"end":28.094093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.48221875,"end":29.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.039093750000003,"end":30.895343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.895343750000002,"end":36.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.75534375,"end":68.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.430968750000005,"end":59.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.66721875,"end":59.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.74596875,"end":77.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.76659375,"end":71.80034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.96909375,"end":72.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.53784375000001,"end":84.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.25409375000001,"end":90.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.87784375000001,"end":100.94346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.43284375,"end":102.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.78284375000001,"end":103.40721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.67721875000001,"end":104.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.40284375,"end":105.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.95534375000001,"end":130.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.94721875000002,"end":133.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.68971875,"end":132.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.57971875,"end":134.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.59221875,"end":137.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.33846875,"end":143.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.75534375,"end":149.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.02471875,"end":148.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.28596875000002,"end":152.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.74159375000002,"end":152.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.13784375,"end":157.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.25096875,"end":178.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.28471875,"end":159.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.58596875,"end":175.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.43346875,"end":181.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.03221875,"end":188.65971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.36846875,"end":189.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.95909375000002,"end":191.17409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.41034375,"end":194.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.47784375,"end":192.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.40159375000002,"end":193.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.70096875000002,"end":203.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.10534375,"end":199.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.10909375,"end":213.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.48784375000002,"end":208.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.83346875,"end":216.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.94221875000002,"end":223.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.92846875,"end":231.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.37909375,"end":229.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.39159375000003,"end":252.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.24784375000002,"end":232.90596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.92284375000003,"end":232.93971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.36096875,"end":237.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.89096875,"end":248.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.66659375,"end":260.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.81784375,"end":256.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.98596875000004,"end":262.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.03659375,"end":264.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.46221875000003,"end":270.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.60909375,"end":274.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.53659375,"end":279.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.92409375,"end":281.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.64534375,"end":286.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.30721875,"end":290.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.12534375,"end":288.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.24721875,"end":290.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.41596875,"end":292.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.48346875000004,"end":290.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.18346875000003,"end":298.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.60034375000004,"end":303.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.36346875000004,"end":303.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.73034375000003,"end":309.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.28659375,"end":316.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.26909375,"end":312.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.42096875000004,"end":312.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.16284375000004,"end":323.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.09846875,"end":327.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.91221875,"end":355.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.73471875,"end":364.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.80096875000004,"end":387.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.83409375,"end":368.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.63284375,"end":392.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.79659375,"end":400.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.81221875,"end":403.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.87971875000005,"end":402.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.01846875,"end":408.25409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.01784375000005,"end":408.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.72659375,"end":408.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.76034375,"end":408.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.84471875,"end":408.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.94596875,"end":408.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.97971875,"end":409.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.01346875,"end":409.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.62096875000003,"end":409.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.68846875,"end":409.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.84034375000005,"end":409.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.89096875,"end":409.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.90784375000004,"end":409.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.92471875,"end":414.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.83534375000005,"end":424.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.61034375,"end":433.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.17534375,"end":426.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.90471875000003,"end":430.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.98846875000004,"end":435.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.62534375,"end":443.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.86159375000005,"end":435.89534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.24034375,"end":449.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.53909375,"end":448.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.34909375,"end":449.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.58096875,"end":465.39284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.25596875,"end":450.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.46034375000005,"end":477.17159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.17159375000006,"end":477.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.55971875000006,"end":477.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.82971875000004,"end":477.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.99846875000003,"end":478.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.09971875,"end":480.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.24284375,"end":481.39034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.59284375000004,"end":488.62971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.34346875000006,"end":500.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.74596875000003,"end":505.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.55096875000004,"end":506.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.85471875,"end":507.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.95596875,"end":507.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.13721875000005,"end":509.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.77409375,"end":516.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.53721875,"end":548.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.17034375,"end":539.5078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.18596875,"end":550.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.39659375,"end":563.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.2647187499999,"end":556.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.46721875,"end":556.6865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.79096875,"end":569.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.6297187499999,"end":569.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.64659375,"end":587.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.66346875,"end":571.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.9097187500001,"end":592.3772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.3772187500001,"end":605.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.46034375,"end":600.9328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.4890937499999,"end":607.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.78846875,"end":620.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.8303437500001,"end":609.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.2334687499999,"end":636.9272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.2309687500001,"end":645.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.25971875,"end":647.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.74409375,"end":650.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.83659375,"end":650.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.1697187500001,"end":654.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.50159375,"end":660.9740937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.12,"end":27.47,"text":"委員好委員長我想今天大家都非常關心這個保險法的修法那當然剛剛聽到主委是說三個月的部分金管會不堅持是嗎我們持開放態度所以就是說我們還是希望達到一個平衡點這個法案我想在委員會也會很熱烈的討論那介入權的規範其實就是要讓可能受到權益受損的人能夠爭取自己的權益"},{"start":29.214,"end":47.374,"text":"本來他是完全被忽略的能夠保障這張保單位被保障特別受益人的權利沒錯被保險人受益人他都有基本的權利但是在這一波的所謂的強制執行上面完全被忽略甚至沒有權利去主張任何自己的權利好"},{"start":47.975,"end":76.063,"text":"現在借入權裡面包括這個強職我們發現最多的問題是通知不到或者是沒有通知或接下來可能保單都是很久很久以前買的其實在金融機構裡面最大的問題是找不到這個客戶或者客戶的資料早就已經搬家遷移然後甚至沒有辦法通到那法院大概能夠查的都叫做戶籍地址那戶籍地址寄過去沒有就叫做公示送達其實對很多人的權益還是會受影響"},{"start":77.683,"end":100.356,"text":"所以在金融機構目前為止金融機構如果變更地址都是要主動跟金融機構做變更嗎對 如果說你沒有去做通知變更就以原來留的地址對 它就可能會造成沒有辦法知道你的權利受到影響了好 所以現在的數位化其實早就應該這些東西因為像我的保單可能是我二十幾歲買的"},{"start":101.477,"end":122.602,"text":"那時候我可能住在不知道班的前面三個家了所以現在其實在92年行政院在中華郵政有設置了一個通訊地址的遷移通報服務也就是說只要民眾去中華郵政說我現在從通訊地址變更戶籍地址因為有總統的原因可能不能變比如說房子"},{"start":124.143,"end":140.142,"text":"稅金的問題比如說學區的問題他戶籍不能變可是他通訊地址已經變了所以他換了公司了他可能需要通訊地址變所以主委這個東西在我們現在的社會化政府社會化國家目前為止金融機構並沒有參與到中華郵政這個簽職服務"},{"start":143.906,"end":157.022,"text":"這我來瞭解一下不過就是剛剛委員就是我們現在保單的部分我們現在那個我們有做比較保單處的我要說的是金融機構其實是可以運用這個服務但是目前沒有中華幼稚園只通報政府機關"},{"start":158.362,"end":177.803,"text":"我的意思是金管會包括金融機構包括各工會就是開放API讓他能夠查核這樣子的話對我們的保護的權益也比較完整第二個我們也可以鼓勵民眾去中華郵政登錄自己的通訊地址不是要一個一個跑到各個不同的保險公司去登記"},{"start":178.645,"end":187.824,"text":"這我會請我們同仁來了解這是將來借入權或者他權益受損的情況下我覺得現在的數位化政府其實都可以提供這個服務"},{"start":190.277,"end":215.923,"text":"當然所有有利於民眾權益的提升我們都來努力因為到法院去他可以查到戶籍地址查不到戶籍地址以外的通訊地址但是中華郵政紀念有這個服務我覺得金管會有必要把這部分建立起來我們所有的保險契約特別是人身保險契約上面都有個條文約定雙方權利義務關係那個通訊地址的約定你覺得我還會記得我二十幾年前的地址現在的變化我要去通報誰"},{"start":217.423,"end":244.05,"text":"基本上我覺得這是一個便民服務而且金融機關應該可以去取得中華郵政相關的資訊這邊也稍微講一下我們可以去下載那個保單存摺我們可以完整的看到現在過去的狀況可以讓他更更完整第二個部分就是我們看到金融圈最近都在併購所以金管會目前台新新光新興併還有玉山金保德信永豐金金城銀"},{"start":244.83,"end":271.179,"text":"好像破局的還有所謂的凱基跟安泰所以主委你對現在的金融併購你的態度是什麼我想我從去年到現在我們講法都沒有改變因為金融市場是一個高度監禮的市場所以他只要在監禮範圍之內我們都樂觀其成市場的秩序維護跟安定是非常重要的那再來就是市場秩序在併購裡面最關鍵最關鍵的其實是勞工的權益"},{"start":275.169,"end":298.23,"text":"這個點在過去應該已經有一套的處理的模式沒有 還是一直出現狀況當然個別狀況有 但是我們覺得他們已經不斷的在好多了 但是我們可以再避免尤其是將來更多的精精藥病的話現在趙鋒金董事長 董事長那邊他說公股子公司也可以盡量開始整病 主委的態度呢"},{"start":298.666,"end":316.136,"text":"我想這是要尊重財政部的這個看法不過我們站在一個整併那我覺得只要他們能夠擴大忠孝是一個有共識因為我們的台灣銀行現在已經輸給很多民營銀行了我們的公股本來最大的公股銀行現在所有的"},{"start":317.636,"end":337.285,"text":"競爭力都不如民間的銀行這才是我們可能需要重新考慮的地方那我回過頭來講併購裡面其實最大的問題是我剛剛講的勞動權益包括這次出現狀況的最近有的新聞就是新展銀行又去告了他的員工那其實大部分員工是花旗銀行併購過來的"},{"start":338.786,"end":355.347,"text":"那花旗銀行跟欣展銀行在他們談判的過程中尤其是勞工安置的部分有一塊很明顯又有開過協調會就是花旗銀行答應工會的條件因為欣展銀行沒有參與所以他們不認賬"},{"start":356.789,"end":371.262,"text":"等到所有的員工都已經進到欣展銀行有開放所謂的登記提前離職的預告但是只要你去登記了你那一年就拿不到年終獎金也就是說你那一整年的努力都是白費"},{"start":372.303,"end":399.848,"text":"雖然我們開放讓他能夠提前報告他要離職但是年終獎金的權益就這樣被犧牲新展銀行說我不知道啊我不知道你們曾經有過這樣的條件我只知道你們可以提前離職但是我沒有答應一定要給年終獎金這個到勞動部勞動部也認為不妥但是沒有人拿新展銀行有辦法主委我只希望有個要求在併購的過程裡面所有的安置計畫三方都要在場"},{"start":400.968,"end":422.896,"text":"不能推說自己沒參與 就假裝不知道這跟委員說明一下 其實我們在很多的地方都講過 任何一個講過你訂做SOP吧 你要求他們做到吧做不到的時候 你用你的監管系統可以去做處理啊就是說我們在金融整併 它攸關到各方的利害關係沒錯不是只有勞工勞工權益當然很重要 它是其中之一"},{"start":423.676,"end":446.862,"text":"但是勞工權益在他答應之後或者是他推說他沒參與這件事情我覺得比較嚴重你只要說你沒參與你就可以什麼都不做那不是就是騙人嗎那這一點的話我們的不放在你們的併購合約裡不放在你們的promise裡面所以最後變成是勞工當成人大頭嗎現在我們的審核實務他必須要提供這樣一個協議的"},{"start":448.522,"end":475.644,"text":"所以主委我說我只有一個要求嘛所有的安置計畫三方都要參與而且不能事後說因為我沒參與那是你們前手答應你的你去找他這件事情不應該在我們的金融合併裡面其實包括所有的企業併購都不應該發生這種事啦這個我們在做這個的時候我們會但是因為你是高度監管所以你其實在金金併的時候其實你有這樣的權利要求他們至少三方參與應該不是難事"},{"start":478.286,"end":505.578,"text":"將來勞動部在處理的時候他也有個依據我們從過去這些時務我們都是希望金管會成為你的一個SOP在所有精精病裡面變成一個至少應該遵守的規範接下去還有一個小問題就是我們現在面對美國剛剛我聽到主委說我們的淨空令要持續下去那什麼時候解除不知道 限空令"},{"start":506.867,"end":521.839,"text":"要等90天嗎我想允許委員讓我們在整個管理市場上我們可以所以我們希望是因為限控令是穩定的訊號限控令還在的時候就是不穩定的訊號這是對國人"},{"start":523.32,"end":549.609,"text":"心理上的影響比較大那比較重要的就是在美國要跟我們談關稅帽壁壘的情況下其實在美國UST對於金融管制上面也有認為台灣有一些所謂的關稅壁壘障礙所以這些障礙裡面有一部分是說金管會沒有善盡良好的法制作業沒有給他們預告期間表示意見這我們做說明了其實這樣是一個誤會啦有好"},{"start":550.649,"end":568.704,"text":"接下去很多的這些相關的可能都必須要現在開始一個一個釐清你做了說明我們也希望說不要成為美國拿來對我們做金融監管的這些相關的談判籌碼不會 那些的誤會我們都跟我們的談判代表這邊做充分的說明"},{"start":570.406,"end":591.348,"text":"不會有這個問題接下去我覺得他們講這個有道理啦我們法規在做公告的時候其實並沒有提供雙語的服務所以他們在60天公告草案公告的期間並不知道台灣的法案的具體比較清楚的內容在我的印象裡面我們在內部開會只要有涉外的部分都會提供雙語的服務"},{"start":592.569,"end":620.429,"text":"是 所以我覺得不是只有社外啊他要來台灣投資他不會只有社外啊他還是要看到你內部的規範所以我覺得政府現在什麼時代了這個翻譯並不困難對 我們會朝這個方向來就是說如果我們要成為一個國際化的國家我們應該在我們草案預告的時候尤其是金融法規這些都是國際企業會來主導的來參與的那這個部分的雙語就不用再等了"},{"start":621.454,"end":650.629,"text":"該有的就要有啊而且在公告期間就要讓大家都知道甚至我覺得進步的政府直接發我們的草案去給所謂的美國商會讓他通報他所有的會員這個可能積極度會比單純的公告有涉外的裁翻譯要來得更好這是我們努力的方向不過剛剛委員提到像比如說美喬歐喬商會我們都有每年登記兩次的固定的說明我理解但是我聽說如果他們還有這樣的反應就表示還有缺漏嘛對 我們會來努力啦好 謝謝主委謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":651.547,"end":651.727,"text":"黃國昌委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":755,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時42分）謝謝主席，我請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委早。我想今天大家都非常關心保險法的修法，當然剛剛聽到主委是說三個月的部分，金管會不堅持是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們持開放態度。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們還是希望達到一個平衡點啦！這個法案我想在委員會也會很熱烈地討論，對介入權的規範，就是要讓可能受到權益受損的人能夠爭取自己的權益，本來他是完全被忽略的嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是能夠保障這張保單未被保障的，特別是受益人的權益。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，被保險人、受益人都有基本的權利，在這一波所謂的強制執行上面完全被忽略，甚至沒有權力去主張任何自己的權益。現在介入權裡面，包括強執，我們發現最多的問題是通知不到或者是沒有通知，或接下來可能保單都是很久很久以前買的，其實在金融機構裡面最大的問題是找不到這個客戶，或者客戶的資料早就已經搬家、遷移，甚至沒有辦法通告，法院大概能夠查的都叫作戶籍地址，戶籍地址寄過去，沒有就叫作公示送達，其實對很多人的權益還是會受影響，所以目前為止，如果有變更地址，都是要主動跟金融機構做變更嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，如果你沒有去做通知變更，就以原來留的地址作為最後送達地址。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，可能就會造成沒有辦法知道你的權利受到影響了。所以現在的數位化，其實早就應該……像我的保單可能是我二十幾歲買的，那時候我可能前面搬了三個家，其實92年行政院在中華郵政有設置一個通訊地址的遷移通報服務，也就是說，只要民眾去中華郵政說我現在從通訊地址變更，戶籍地址因為有種種的原因可能不能變，比如說房子、稅金的問題、學區的問題，他的戶籍不能變，可是他的通訊地址已經變了，甚至他換了公司，他可能需要通訊地址變更。"],["彭主任委員金隆：居住所可以變更。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以主委，這個東西在我們現在的數位化政府、數位化國家，目前為止，金融機構並沒有參與到中華郵政的遷址服務。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這我來瞭解一下，不過剛剛委員提到現在保單的部分，委員，我們現在有做保單存摺……"],["黃委員珊珊：我要說的是，金融機構其實是可以運用這個服務，但是目前沒有，中華郵政只通報政府機關……"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們會來……"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思是，金管會包括金融機構、包括各工會，就是開放API讓它能夠查核，這樣子的話對我們的保戶的權益也比較完整。第二個，我們也可以鼓勵民眾去中華郵政登錄自己的通訊地址……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員，我想……"],["黃委員珊珊：而不是要一個一個跑到各個不同的保險公司去登記。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這我會請我們同仁來了解。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，這是將來介入權或者他權益受損的情況下，我覺得現在的數位化政府其實都可以提供這個服務。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：對吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：包含所有有利於民眾權益的提升……"],["黃委員珊珊：建立這個平台吧！"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們都來努力。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為到法院去，他可以查到戶籍地址，但查不到戶籍地址以外的通訊地址，但是中華郵政既然有這個服務，我覺得金管會有必要把這個部分建立起來。"],["彭主任委員金隆：不過跟委員報告一下，就是我們所有的保險契約，特別是人身保險契約，上面都有個條文約定雙方權利義務關係、通訊地址的約定。"],["黃委員珊珊：是啊，但是你覺得我還會記得我二十幾年前的地址？現在的變化我要去通報誰？基本上我覺得這是一個便民服務，而且金融機關應該可以去取得中華郵政相關的資訊，好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這邊也稍微講一下，我們可以去下載保單存摺，我們可以完整看到……"],["黃委員珊珊：是的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在、過去的投保狀況。"],["黃委員珊珊：可是可以讓它update得更完整。第二個部分就是我們看到金融圈最近都在併購，所以金管會，目前台新、新光（新新併），還有玉山金、保德信，永豐金、京城銀，好像破局的還有所謂的凱基跟安泰，所以主委，對現在的金融併購，你的態度是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想從去年到現在，我們的講法都沒有改變，因為金融市場是一個高度監理的市場，他們市場的秩序……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以只要在監理範圍之內，我們都樂觀其成？"],["彭主任委員金隆：市場秩序的維護跟安定是非常重要的，再來就是說……"],["黃委員珊珊：市場秩序在併購裡面最關鍵、最關鍵的其實是勞工的權益。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個點在過去應該已經有一套處理模式。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有，還是一直出現狀況。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然個別狀況有，但是我們覺得他們已經不斷地在過去的整併案子……"],["黃委員珊珊：好多了，但是我們可以再避免。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，包括我們的勞檢單位……"],["黃委員珊珊：尤其是將來更多的金金要併的話，現在兆豐金董事長董瑞斌，他說公股子公司也可以儘量開始整併，主委的態度？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這是要尊重財政部的看法，不過我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：也不反對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得只要他們能夠擴大綜效，是一個有共識，我覺得這個東西……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為我們的臺灣銀行現在已經輸給很多民營銀行了，我們的公股、本來最大的公股銀行，現在所有的競爭力都不如民間的銀行，這才是我們可能需要重新考慮的地方。我回過頭來講，併購裡面其實最大的問題是我剛剛講的勞動權益，包括這次出現狀況的，最近有個新聞就是星展銀行又去告了它的員工，其實大部分員工是花旗銀行併購過來的，花旗銀行跟星展銀行在他們談判的過程中，尤其是勞工安置的部分，有一塊很明顯，因為我也開過協調會，就是花旗銀行答應工會的條件，因為星展銀行沒有參與，所以他們不認帳，等到所有的員工都已經併到星展銀行，有開放所謂的登記提前離職的預告，但是只要你去登記了，你那一年就拿不到年終獎金，也就是說你那一整年的努力都是白費，雖然我們開放讓他能夠提前報告他要離職，但是年終獎金的權益就這樣被犧牲。星展銀行說：我不知道啊，我不知道你們曾經有過這樣的條件，我只知道你們可以提前離職，但是我沒有答應一定要給年終獎金。到勞動部，勞動部也認為不妥，但是沒有人拿星展銀行有辦法。主委，我只希望有個要求，在併購的過程裡面，所有的安置計畫，三方都要在場，不能推說自己沒參與就假裝不知道。"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員說明一下，其實我們在很多的地方都講過，任何一個金融……"],["黃委員珊珊：講過，你訂出SOP吧！你要求他們做到吧！做不到的時候，你有你的監管系統可以去做處理。"],["彭主任委員金隆：就是說我們在金融整併，它攸關到各方的利害關係。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯。"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是只有勞工，勞工權益當然很重要，它是其中之一，我們要衡平……"],["黃委員珊珊：但是勞工權益在它答應之後，或者是它推說它沒參與這件事情，我覺得比較嚴重。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這點的話……"],["黃委員珊珊：你只要說你沒參與，你就可以什麼都不做，那不是就是騙人嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那這一點的話，我們的……"],["黃委員珊珊：不放在你們的併購合約裡、不放在你們的promise裡面，所以最後變成勞工當冤大頭嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實按照現在我們的審核實務，它必須要提供這樣的一個協議的……"],["黃委員珊珊：對，所以主委，我說我只有一個要求，所有的安置計畫三方都要參與，而且不能事後說因為我沒參與，那是你們前手答應你的，你去找它。這件事情不應該發生在我們的金融合併裡面，其實包括所有的企業併購都不應該發生這種事。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們在做這個的時候，我們會……"],["黃委員珊珊：但是因為你是高度監管，所以你其實在金金併的時候有這樣的權力，要求他們至少三方參與應該不是難事，將來勞動部在處理的時候，它也有個依據。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，我們從過去這些實務，我們都是完全尊重勞動部他們在處理勞資的問題……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我希望金管會這成為你的一個SOP，在所有金金併裡面變成一個至少應該遵守的規範。接下去還有一個小問題，就是我們現在面對美國，剛剛我聽到主委說我們的限空令要持續下去，什麼時候解除不知道，要等90天嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想允許委員讓我們在整個管理市場上，我們可以隨時……"],["黃委員珊珊：明白。"],["彭主任委員金隆：針對這個部分來進行管理。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們希望是，因為限空令是穩定的訊號，限空令還在的時候就是不穩定的訊號，這會對國人心理上的影響比較大，比較重要的就是在美國要跟我們談關稅壁壘的情況下，其實美國USTR對於金融管制上面，也有認為臺灣有一些所謂的關稅壁壘障礙，所以這些障礙裡面，有一部分是說金管會沒有善盡良好的法制作業，沒有給他們預告期間表示意見。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這我們做說明了，其實上是個誤會。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以接下去很多的這些相關的可能都必須要現在開始一個一個釐清。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然。"],["黃委員珊珊：你做了說明，我們也希望不要成為美國拿來對我們做金融監管這些相關的談判籌碼。"],["彭主任委員金隆：不會，那些誤會我們都跟我們的談判代表這邊做充分的說明。"],["黃委員珊珊：不會有這個問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以接下去，我覺得他們講這個有道理，我們法規在做公告的時候，其實並沒有提供雙語的服務，所以他們在60天草案公告的時間，並不知道臺灣的法案具體比較清楚的內容。"],["彭主任委員金隆：在我的印象裡面，我們在內部開會，只要有涉外的部分，我們都會提供雙語的服務。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以我覺得不是只有涉外，它要來臺灣投資，它不會只有涉外，它還是要看到你內部的規範，所以我覺得政府現在什麼時代了，這個翻譯並不困難。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們會朝這個方向來努力。"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是說如果我們要成為一個國際化的國家，我們應該在我們草案預告的時候，尤其是金融法規，這些都是國際企業會來參與的，這個部分的雙語就不用再等，該有的就要有，而且在公告期間就要讓大家都知道，甚至我覺得進步的政府，直接發我們的草案去給所謂的美國商會，讓它通報它所有的會員，可能積極度會比單純的公告、有涉外的才翻譯要來得更好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是我們努力的方向，不過剛剛委員有提到，像比如說美僑、歐僑商會，我們都有每年兩次定期的溝通。"],["黃委員珊珊：固定的說明，我理解，但是我的意思是說，如果他們還有這樣的反映就表示還有缺漏嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們會來努力。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接著請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","黃珊珊","羅智強","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","黃國昌","陳玉珍","王世堅","林思銘","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","徐富癸","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「保險法」15案：一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員\n王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人\n分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案；二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第\n一百二十三條之一條文草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等\n19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百\n七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案","agenda_id":"1144301_00006"}}},{"id":"160799","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160799","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b94236919dc21e146d5010f385a4fd0f0fffa49d78ea87b1712f882efbef1088df2b8325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"11:34:58 - 11:46:51","影片長度":"00:11:53","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:34:58+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:46:51+08:00","duration":713,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.0853437500000003,"end":4.620968749999999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.90784375,"end":6.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.000343750000001,"end":8.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.894718750000001,"end":8.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.29971875,"end":8.316593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.447218750000001,"end":10.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.024093750000002,"end":21.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.42846875,"end":31.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.346593750000004,"end":34.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.118468750000005,"end":37.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.20221875,"end":39.180968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.602843750000005,"end":47.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.259718750000005,"end":51.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.87096875,"end":55.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.650968750000004,"end":56.393468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.83221875,"end":62.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.37971875,"end":64.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.56096875,"end":65.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.91096875000001,"end":66.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.97409375000001,"end":67.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.66159375000001,"end":69.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.29846875,"end":71.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.55971875,"end":73.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.72409375000001,"end":76.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.16221875000001,"end":78.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.05659375,"end":81.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.36846875,"end":82.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.97159375000001,"end":84.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.57471875,"end":91.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.42159375,"end":95.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.34096875,"end":98.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.63159375000001,"end":101.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.98971875000001,"end":105.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.07346875,"end":108.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.97159375000001,"end":110.62971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.38909375,"end":113.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.46034375,"end":125.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.63159375000001,"end":129.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.27221875,"end":131.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.55471875,"end":133.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.63034375,"end":136.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.61721875,"end":139.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.00909375,"end":141.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.10159375,"end":143.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.34596875,"end":148.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.15534375000001,"end":149.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.15096875,"end":181.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.64034375,"end":151.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.51409375,"end":175.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.72409375,"end":183.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":183.88409375,"end":188.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.33096875,"end":186.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.96346875,"end":190.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.65096875,"end":191.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.83221875,"end":192.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.78096875,"end":198.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.31221875,"end":204.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.30784375000002,"end":200.43846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.88909375,"end":207.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.23471875,"end":208.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.97721875000002,"end":215.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.82034375,"end":213.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.97221875000002,"end":227.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.25284375,"end":230.83034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.18471875,"end":235.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.23034375,"end":239.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.84159375000002,"end":240.12846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.12846875000002,"end":244.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.00534375,"end":246.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.30471875,"end":248.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.21596875,"end":249.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.24096875,"end":249.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.29159375,"end":249.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.78096875000003,"end":252.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.36284375000002,"end":252.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.30784375000002,"end":259.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.92284375,"end":260.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.58096875,"end":260.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.27284375,"end":262.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.43721875,"end":262.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.46659375,"end":265.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.60971875,"end":268.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.90034375,"end":270.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.84096875,"end":272.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.54534375000003,"end":274.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.55346875000004,"end":275.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":275.16096875,"end":280.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.80596875000003,"end":284.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":285.16784375000003,"end":285.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.99471875,"end":287.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.69471875,"end":289.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.04471875,"end":290.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.39471875000004,"end":292.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.99784375,"end":295.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.00159375000004,"end":297.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.36409375,"end":300.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.94596875,"end":305.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.96284375000005,"end":302.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.16909375,"end":304.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.36721875,"end":306.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":306.49784375,"end":308.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.18971875,"end":310.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.95284375,"end":328.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.35659375,"end":319.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.55909375000005,"end":319.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.70534375,"end":329.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.04284375000003,"end":342.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.37409375000004,"end":342.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.89721875000004,"end":347.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.47471875,"end":347.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.20034375,"end":350.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.62596875,"end":370.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.88284375,"end":353.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.96721875000003,"end":353.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.00096875,"end":354.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.60784375000003,"end":358.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.99596875000003,"end":359.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.93596875000003,"end":365.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.50471875000005,"end":370.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.77471875000003,"end":371.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.04034375000003,"end":372.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.36096875000004,"end":373.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.86284375,"end":378.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.67221875,"end":379.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":379.73534375,"end":380.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.93784375,"end":380.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":381.25409375000004,"end":382.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.30034375,"end":382.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.43096875000003,"end":388.64534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.32096875,"end":386.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.35846875000004,"end":388.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":388.39221875000004,"end":388.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.44284375,"end":388.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.45534375,"end":389.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.18096875000003,"end":390.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.78409375,"end":397.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.68596875000003,"end":400.49159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.42846875000004,"end":400.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.33971875000003,"end":400.91346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.30159375000005,"end":403.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.57971875000004,"end":405.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.06034375,"end":406.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.75221875000005,"end":407.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.86596875000004,"end":408.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.31721875000005,"end":410.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.90346875,"end":413.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.78909375,"end":414.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.22784375000003,"end":423.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.67346875000004,"end":425.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.69846875,"end":428.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.43221875,"end":430.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":430.61346875000004,"end":431.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.43596875000003,"end":433.33034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.02221875000004,"end":434.14034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.42721875,"end":435.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.65909375,"end":435.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.67596875000004,"end":436.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.95846875,"end":438.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.30409375000005,"end":439.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":439.37159375000005,"end":439.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.48971875,"end":442.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.94909375000003,"end":445.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.78409375,"end":446.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.69096875,"end":448.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.80471875,"end":449.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.40784375000004,"end":451.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.55096875000004,"end":454.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.91346875000005,"end":455.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.94284375,"end":457.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.73159375,"end":458.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.82846875,"end":460.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.30909375000005,"end":462.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.91221875,"end":463.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.49846875000003,"end":468.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.02096875,"end":471.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":470.06721875000005,"end":475.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.37034375,"end":474.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.83846875,"end":478.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":478.06596875,"end":478.08284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.42034375000003,"end":479.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.17534375,"end":480.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.34409375,"end":481.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.21721875000003,"end":485.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.11534375,"end":486.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.19534375,"end":487.81971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.51159375000003,"end":490.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.70534375000005,"end":493.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.56971875000005,"end":495.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.30784375,"end":497.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.06284375,"end":499.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.75034375,"end":507.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.15409375,"end":509.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.16221875,"end":511.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.28846875,"end":516.6084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.92909375,"end":519.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.9834687499999,"end":520.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":521.31659375,"end":523.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":524.23596875,"end":525.1303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.5859687500001,"end":526.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.6828437500001,"end":528.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.7078437499999,"end":530.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":531.3234687500001,"end":532.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.65659375,"end":532.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.2978437500001,"end":534.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.5634687500001,"end":536.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.9934687500001,"end":537.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.42784375,"end":538.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.46159375,"end":539.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.9465937500001,"end":543.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.4228437500001,"end":546.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.6459687500001,"end":547.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.9453437500001,"end":552.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.94034375,"end":555.6740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":556.06221875,"end":564.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.3984687500001,"end":589.8459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.08221875,"end":594.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.5203437499999,"end":597.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":598.2665937500001,"end":600.3928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.15221875,"end":603.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":604.1897187500001,"end":606.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":607.36221875,"end":613.3022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.99409375,"end":628.0678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.3684687500001,"end":621.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.2534687500001,"end":628.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":628.70909375,"end":631.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.3078437500001,"end":631.7803437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":631.7803437499999,"end":632.1684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.4722187500001,"end":636.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.69159375,"end":632.7084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":636.5559687500001,"end":638.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":636.9440937500001,"end":639.3740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":639.54284375,"end":654.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":642.10784375,"end":642.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":655.45596875,"end":661.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":661.0247187500001,"end":661.4128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":662.03721875,"end":662.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":662.05409375,"end":670.2553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":670.60971875,"end":677.7647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":672.46596875,"end":672.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":676.3134687500001,"end":676.7353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":677.24159375,"end":704.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":680.34659375,"end":681.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":687.0290937500001,"end":687.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.07971875,"end":688.1597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.1597187500001,"end":688.2778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.95284375,"end":689.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.1215937500001,"end":689.9822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":689.9822187500001,"end":689.9990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.9990937500002,"end":690.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.18471875,"end":690.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":693.4584687500001,"end":693.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.5090937500001,"end":693.9309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":704.7140937500001,"end":711.0590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":707.6672187500001,"end":708.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":709.74284375,"end":710.0803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":710.5022187500001,"end":710.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":710.97471875,"end":711.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":711.7509687500001,"end":711.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":711.97034375,"end":712.27409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.2,"end":10.477,"text":"好 感謝主席 本席要請我們交通部陳部長好 交通部陳部長 民行局何局長民行局何局長"},{"start":19.584,"end":36.558,"text":"我們民航局其實在2021年行政院有核定一個他們做的計畫叫做2040年我國民用機場整體規劃成果何局長知道吧那時候你還沒有當局長那你知道這個計畫"},{"start":38.274,"end":67.101,"text":"那在這個2040年我國民用機場整體規劃裡面台南機場的定位是所謂核心機場那核心機場裡面做什麼呢他說第一個是國內航線的核心機場之一第二個台南機場要作為南部區域的國際航線的輔助機場但是現在台南機場沒有半條"},{"start":68.94,"end":91.311,"text":"國際航線啊 連一條都沒有啦但你要知道喔 它所謂的南部國際航線的輔助機場它未來就是預期啦 運量 運輸能量啦 檳榔局估算啦就是台南機場必須和高雄機場共同達成一年的容量要1500人次以上"},{"start":92.472,"end":112.97,"text":"其實你整個台中喔 普通來自台中喔 台中一千萬人次耶南部會比中部還要更多耶那如果台南是要輔助高雄小港國際機場 那台南現在連一條航線都沒有 一條國際航線都沒有這可以嗎同時啊 我們也知道喔"},{"start":114.5,"end":129.099,"text":"高雄的南子科技園區台積電還有台南南科現在國家最重要的半導體高科技的園區都在南部其實高雄那個地方也北高雄其實也比較靠近台南機場"},{"start":130.562,"end":143.214,"text":"甚至於台南未來的沙崙科學園區 離台南機場也很近車程大概十分到十五分鐘所以是不是請我們交通部這裡能夠協助輔導來讓台南的機場可以作為國際航線"},{"start":150.881,"end":164.559,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們也希望說能夠有更多的航班能夠飛國際的部分在台南機場來起降那這個部分我昨天剛好跟那個觀光業者大家在座談會的時候其實台南的業者有跟我表示說"},{"start":165.28,"end":192.691,"text":"虎航已經有跟他們在商量說未來在台南有沒有可能開國際航線那當然這個部分除了航空公司要配合之外也就是說我們的運量也要有所以觀光業者也應該大家一起配合那目前他們已經有在接洽了我們希望能夠促成這件事大概什麼時候可以促成這個細部的部分我可能還要再詢問一下但是他們現在已經有開始在討論這件事虎航的高董知道嗎董事長大概什麼時候可以促成"},{"start":195.848,"end":200.356,"text":"我想我們還是會做一些那個 今年底好不好 今年底讓台南機場可以有"},{"start":206.416,"end":235.176,"text":"國際的固定航班可以嗎我們來努力看是由那個虎航或者是那個我們來擔任至少我們從包機會先開始我們去年已經有20家的國際包機那今年也會有一些國際包機我們包機會先開始那我們希望能夠推到有固定的航班現在幾乎沒有了我給你看旅客室好了來部長台南在2023年還有固定航線的時候那時候非越南"},{"start":236.496,"end":262.534,"text":"那一年還有三萬一千個一千位旅客啦去年2024年就是保證你講的包機啦三百十三個那你去包一台兩台而已啊跟定期航班就是有差那另外啊你台南機場啊我們民航局也把它發包為有免稅商店和商店街你知道嗎免稅是不懂你知道這件事嗎我知道"},{"start":263.63,"end":290.435,"text":"我不知道你發包這個有什麼意思你連一個國際航線也沒有你發包來招商去做國際航線的美穗店還開闢商店街沒有旅客啊確實要先有需求那這些廠商為什麼會來他認為說你美浪局有答應要去徵求國際航線嘛那現在沒有這些廠商不是很無辜嗎那這個部分也希望"},{"start":291.411,"end":310.054,"text":"你們都一定要去注意一下啦那對這些廠商你是不是應該要給予前輩黃線以前的話那他們怎麼沒有客人根本沒辦法營運啊那住居要不要付給你那個檢免的部分應該是已經在討論可以輔導檢免嘛對對對這個要檢免他們應該也算是無辜的受害者啦"},{"start":311.638,"end":336.813,"text":"那其實在國際航線的檢疫啦 還有通關啦進出 其實這個都是中央的業務啦那中央其實應該要跟市政府再來做一個密切的聯繫啦剛剛部長也講對了啦你航線拉了以外 你要維持下去還是必須要有旅客嘛那這個地方就必須要我們共同來經營 來行銷啦我認為以台南的觀光資源 應該是非常有條件啦"},{"start":337.674,"end":349.425,"text":"我們地方的觀光業者我想他們大家也期待但是重點我們是不是請交通部這裡先來協助我們希望在今年我個人對我們交通部的一個期待"},{"start":354.649,"end":381.919,"text":"那我也要求希望可以啦你們努力讓年底以前啦今年底以前台南可以先開闢啊再開闢國際航線好不好讓台南機場成為一個真的南部的國際航線輔助機場嘛讓台民武起始啊好那局長請回喔高董請問我現在在提的是鐵路啦我們鐵道局在嗎鐵道局在"},{"start":383.922,"end":390.305,"text":"楊局長謝謝主席我請局長上次很感謝部長跟我們鐵道局有帶讓在發展台南的那個"},{"start":399.155,"end":425.718,"text":"山南號不是 上次是明日號就明日號來停我們台南這邊很感謝但我希望西部線的觀光列車我請部長看一下山南號就是短程山南號就是專做它兩個城鎮之間的一個短程你看那西部海岸線全部零了台中以南就沒有了"},{"start":426.735,"end":453.612,"text":"你看當時東部有嘛南港 宜蘭 花蓮 池上 榜寮到台中部長看得出來吧是兩個 這裡新竹到台中啦對新竹到台中南港 宜蘭 花蓮 池上 榜寮台中你看這裡全部沒有啦全部沒有啦那我現在啊希望我們交通部能夠協助啦你要開發這一段啦"},{"start":455.303,"end":467.934,"text":"開發這一段讓三南澳專門幾乎是量身訂做一個台南的路段航線這個做得起來我知道你們為什麼不做你們認為說因為這麼大沒有海景可以看"},{"start":469.076,"end":492.188,"text":"是不是 因為這塊沒那麼危險海峰是看海景的 山嵐不用看海景 可以看山也可以第一個 你要看海景到處有啦但這種特殊景觀 別的地方沒有啦 我跟你介紹啦去年英國的一個雜誌叫Time OutTime Out大概是休息雜誌 它評估"},{"start":495.019,"end":518.964,"text":"台南是台灣唯一入榜的就世界 亞洲八大最佳旅遊城市台南是台灣唯一入列的台南還名列第四名甚至超過日本的大阪那觀光署 我們交通部自己觀光署的計算今年三月份 今年一月份"},{"start":521.543,"end":545.59,"text":"旅遊人次 全國前兩名的旅遊景點都是台南第一個是鹿兒門聖母廟第二個就是國華友愛商圈所以很多人到台南玩所以如果你這個時候其實鐵路旅遊可以來開發而且這種套裝行程我幫你設計好了你知道台南是一個南北很狹長的"},{"start":546.69,"end":573.438,"text":"的一個城市啦你可以做一個西北去體驗農遊西北是比較農村的地方啦你就在澳北開始啦後邊有八角樓啦 鹽水舞廟啦鹽水橋啊新營鐵道文化區啦 新營太子宮這個是賴總統多次都會去上香的地方那個地方也是地方的一個非常出名的一個廟宇還有台灣的南蛙產業園區也是在後壁啦"},{"start":574.238,"end":600.177,"text":"那你台南在台南 台南再下來中部那就是大麻豆地區啦我們麻豆台天府啦 總爺藝文中心啦那麻豆就這都放在那裡啦就古早的港口文化園區啦 蕭榮文化園區啦喔 西港慶安宮啦 嘉麗金洞殿那個都是地方很出名的也都是很多外來觀光客的啦也就是說你讓觀光客到台南"},{"start":601.215,"end":627.774,"text":"除了他們自己開車坐高鐵以外你如果另外一個開闢就坐鐵路來他這種旅行就是鐵路靠站以後然後我們有專車送他們到這些景點去旅行嘛那市區就是走讀的歷史啦不少應該有到台南來過啦安平古堡、義仔金城、大天后宮4.5廟還有台南法院那個私房博物館"},{"start":628.895,"end":654.784,"text":"那台南也更有全國出名的點心嘛 對不對我最近也介紹一些 我上一本有補充來參考一下是啊 好吃的你也要吃台南點心喔 更是觀光客到台南一定會來享受的我相信台南有這樣的觀光資源才會被世界的旅遊雜誌評選為亞洲八大旅遊城市的第四名而且是台灣唯一入榜"},{"start":655.484,"end":679.978,"text":"那我們有這樣的台南觀光旅遊資源你開闢鐵道觀光旅遊你把台南挑過報告委員這個大家都在爭取那我覺得南台灣確實應該要納入所以我們現在應該台鐵已經在做這個南台灣的這個計畫南台灣的計畫已經在做我們希望年底看有沒有機會或者是明年初啦有機會的話我們南台灣很高興聽到這種好消息啦年底以前趕快開闢一條我要保證判決啦"},{"start":684.2,"end":711.333,"text":"我不知道 你要委託看外因為這是委外經營嘛是 委外經營嘛這個一定賺錢的啦是 沒錯另外我也鼓勵你們喔我剛提到台南也有很多好吃的點心嘛台南是全國最重要最大的龍魚水產很多台南在地的產物今天你可以做一個結合台南在地食材開發一個台南便當啦對 他們車上會提供餐點這個餐點我們就找在地的食材找在地的食材來做好不好好 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":711,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（11時35分）感謝主席，本席邀請交通部陳部長、民航局何局長。"],["主席：好，請交通部陳部長、民航局何局長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長好。部長，其實在2021年行政院有核定一個民航局的計畫，叫做2040年我國民用機場整體規劃成果，何局長知道吧？那時候你還沒有當局長。"],["何局長淑萍：還沒。"],["林委員俊憲：那你知道有這個計畫。"],["何局長淑萍：知道。"],["林委員俊憲：在2040年我國民用機場整體規劃裡面，臺南機場的定位是所謂的核心機場，核心機場是做什麼呢？第一個是國內航線的核心機場之一；第二個，臺南機場要作為南部區域的國際航線輔助機場，但是現在臺南機場沒有半條國際航線，連一條都沒有，你要知道，所謂的南部國際航線的輔助機場，預期未來的運輸能量，民航局估算，臺南機場必須和高雄機場共同達成一年的容量要1,500萬人次以上。部長，你來自臺中，整個臺中其實也才估1,000萬人次，也就是南部會比中部還要更多。如果臺南市要輔助高雄小港國際機場，臺南現在連一條國際航線都沒有，這可以嗎？同時，我們也知道高雄的楠梓科技園區，台積電在那邊，還有臺南的南科，現在國家最重要的半導體高科技園區都在南部，那個地方是北高雄，其實也比較靠近臺南機場，甚至於臺南未來的沙崙科學園區離臺南機場也很近，車程大概是10分鐘到15分鐘。所以是不是請交通部能夠協助輔導，讓臺南的機場可以作為國際航線？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們也希望有更多飛國際的航班能夠在臺南機場起降，這個部分，我昨天剛好跟觀光業者在進行座談會的時候，其實臺南的業者有跟我表示，虎航已經有跟他們商量未來在臺南有沒有可能開國際航線，當然這個部分除了航空公司要配合之外，我們的運量也要有，觀光業者也應該一起配合，目前他們已經有在接洽了，我們希望能夠促成這件事。"],["林委員俊憲：大概什麼時候可以促成？"],["陳部長世凱：這個細部的部分，我可能還要再詢問一下，但是他們現在已經有開始在討論這件事了。"],["林委員俊憲：華航的高董知道嗎？董事長，大概什麼時候可以促成？"],["高董事長星潢：我想我們還是會做一些研議……"],["林委員俊憲：今年底，好不好？"],["高董事長星潢：今年年底是不是？"],["林委員俊憲：再讓你拚半年，今年底讓臺南機場可以有國際的固定航班，可以嗎？"],["高董事長星潢：我們來努力，看是由虎航或者是那個……我們來擔任，我們來努力看看。"],["林委員俊憲：沒關係，其實……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們會先從包機開始，去年已經有20家的國際包機，今年也會有一些國際包機，包機會先開始，我們希望能夠推到有固定的航班是最好。"],["林委員俊憲：現在幾乎沒有，我給你看旅客數好了，部長，臺南在2023年還有固定航線的時候，那時候飛越南，一年還有3萬1,000位旅客，去年2024年就是部長你說的包機，313個，等於包1臺、2臺而已。"],["陳部長世凱：跟定期航班確實有落差。"],["林委員俊憲：包機根本做不起來嘛。另外，透過民航局發包，臺南機場有免稅商店和商店街，你知道嗎？部長，你知道這件事嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我知道。"],["林委員俊憲：我不知道你發包這個有什麼意思？連一個國際航線也沒有，你不但發包，還招商去做國際航線的免稅店、還開闢商店街，但是沒有旅客！"],["陳部長世凱：確實要先有需求，才會……"],["林委員俊憲：這些廠商為什麼會來？他認為民航局有答應要去爭取國際航線嘛。"],["陳部長世凱：對！"],["林委員俊憲：那現在沒有，這些廠商不是很無辜嗎？這個部分也希望民航局要去注意一下，對於這些廠商是不是應該要給予……沒有航線以前沒有客人，他們根本沒辦法營運，租金要不要付給你？"],["陳部長世凱：減免的部分應該已經在討論了。"],["林委員俊憲：可以輔導減免。"],["陳部長世凱：對！要減免。"],["林委員俊憲：他們應該也算是無辜的受害者。","國際航線的檢疫、通關進出其實都是中央的業務，中央應該要跟市政府再來做密切聯繫，剛剛部長也講對了，除航線拉了以外，要維持下去還是必須要有旅客，這個部分就必須要我們共同來經營、行銷，我認為以臺南的觀光資源應該是非常有條件，我想我們地方的觀光業者也期待，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員俊憲：但重點是，我們是不是請交通部先來協助？關於我個人對交通部的期待，我要求、也希望你們努力在今年底以前讓臺南可以再開闢國際航線，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來努力。"],["林委員俊憲：讓臺南機場成為一個真正的南部國際航線輔助機場，讓它名副其實。局長請回、高董請回座。","我現在要提的是鐵路，鐵道局在嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：鐵道局在。"],["主席：楊局長。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝主席。"],["主席：董事長要不要一併上來？"],["林委員俊憲：不用，我請局長。上次很感謝部長跟鐵道局有答應發展臺南的山嵐號，不是，上次是鳴日號，就是讓鳴日號來停我們臺南，這邊很感謝。但我希望西部線的觀光列車，我請部長看一下，山嵐號就是短程，山嵐號就是專作2個城鎮之間的短程，你看西部海岸線全部零，臺中以南就沒有了，但是東部有，包含南港─宜蘭、花蓮─池上、枋寮─臺東，部長看得出來吧？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：然後這裡有一個新竹─臺中，東部有南港─宜蘭、花蓮─池上、枋寮─臺東，你看這裡全部沒有！我現在希望交通部能夠協助，你要開發這一段，讓山嵐號專門量身訂做一個臺南的路段航線，這個做得起來。我知道你們為什麼不做？你們認為這一段沒有海景可以看，是不是因為這一段沒有海景？"],["陳部長世凱：海風號是看海景的，山嵐號不用看海景，看山也可以。"],["林委員俊憲：對，你內行的。第一個，你要看海景到處有，但這種特殊景觀別的地方沒有，我跟你介紹，去年英國的一個雜誌叫「Time Out」，它是休閒雜誌，它評估臺南是臺灣唯一入榜的亞洲8大最佳旅遊城市，臺南是臺灣唯一入列的，臺南還名列第4名，甚至超過日本的大阪；依據交通部觀光署的計算，今年1月份旅遊人次全國前兩名的旅遊景點都是臺南，第一個是鹿耳門聖母廟、第二個就是國華友愛商圈，所以很多人到臺南玩。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員俊憲：其實鐵路旅遊可以來開發，而且這種套裝行程我幫你設計好了，臺南是一個南北很狹長的城市，你可以做一個溪北去體驗農遊，溪北是比較農村的地方，從後壁開始，後壁那邊包含八角樓、鹽水武廟、鹽水橋南老街、新營鐵道文化園區、新營太子宮，這個是賴總統多次都會去上香的地方，那個地方也是地方上非常出名的廟宇，還有臺灣蘭花產業園區也在後壁；再往下到臺南的中部就是大麻豆地區，包含麻豆代天府、總爺藝文中心、蔴荳古港文化園區，就是以前倒風內海那邊、蕭壠文化園區、西港慶安宮、佳里金唐殿，這些都是地方很出名的，也都有很多外來觀光客。也就是說，你讓觀光客到臺南，除了他們自己開車、坐高鐵以外，如果另外開闢一個坐鐵路來，這種旅行就是鐵路靠站以後，然後有專車送他們到這些景點去旅行。","那市區就是走讀歷史，部長應該有到臺南過，包含安平古堡、億載金城、赤崁樓……"],["陳部長世凱：有，這些都去過。"],["林委員俊憲：大天后宮、祀典武廟，還有臺南法院的司法博物館，臺南更有全國出名的點心，對不對？我這邊也介紹一些，我送一本給部長參考一下。"],["陳部長世凱：是，好吃的。"],["林委員俊憲：你如果要吃臺南點心，這個更是觀光客到臺南一定會來享受的。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：我相信臺南有這樣的觀光資源，才會被世界的旅遊雜誌評選為亞洲8大旅遊城市的第4名，而且是臺灣唯一入榜的。既然我們有這樣的臺南觀光旅遊資源，你們在開闢鐵鐵道觀光旅遊的時候把臺南跳過？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這部分大家都在爭取，我覺得南臺灣確實應該要納入，所以現在臺鐵應該已經在做南臺灣的計畫，南臺灣的計畫已經在做，我們希望看年底有沒有機會或者是明年初，有機會的話，我們南臺灣……"],["林委員俊憲：很高興聽到這個好消息，年底以前趕快開闢一條。"],["陳部長世凱：會！"],["林委員俊憲：我保證賺錢啦！因為這是委外經營。"],["陳部長世凱：是委外經營。"],["林委員俊憲：這個一定賺錢的啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：另外，我也鼓勵你們，我剛剛提到臺南有很多好吃的點心，臺南是全國最重要、最大的農漁水產產地，有很多臺南在地的產物，其實你可以結合臺南在地食材、開發一個臺南便當。"],["陳部長世凱：對，他們車上會提供餐點，這個餐點我們就找在地的食材。"],["林委員俊憲：這一定賣的很好。"],["陳部長世凱：對，找在地的食材來做。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝部長、謝謝局長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員。","現在請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160798","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160798","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369c5cfdc06f8fda0da8b6df88a6e7dffcad78ea87b1712f88274d47481ca160e5e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"11:38:28 - 11:49:20","影片長度":"00:10:52","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場(廠)墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:38:28+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:49:20+08:00","duration":652,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.392218750000001,"end":12.113468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.872843750000001,"end":14.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.96909375,"end":18.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.05346875,"end":18.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.39096875,"end":18.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.28534375,"end":20.770343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.12471875,"end":26.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.727218750000002,"end":46.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.736593750000004,"end":64.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.96596875,"end":92.45534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.27346875,"end":96.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.02409375,"end":98.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.56409375000001,"end":99.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.10409375,"end":99.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.12096875,"end":100.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.62721875000001,"end":99.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.97721875,"end":102.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.37346875,"end":104.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.33096875000001,"end":111.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.87034375,"end":115.01721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.06784375000001,"end":116.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.31659375000001,"end":142.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.53159375,"end":148.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.13846875000002,"end":169.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.73534375,"end":163.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.87034375000002,"end":164.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.08471875,"end":172.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.34159375000002,"end":172.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.78034375000001,"end":172.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.89846875,"end":218.14034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.79846875,"end":231.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.37034375000002,"end":237.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.83346875,"end":239.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.79096875000002,"end":242.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.72721875000002,"end":246.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.76034375,"end":283.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.34096875,"end":285.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.02846875,"end":290.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.51721875000004,"end":291.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.46221875000003,"end":296.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.44034375,"end":298.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.15721875,"end":300.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.71784375000004,"end":302.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.75159375000004,"end":303.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.47284375000004,"end":323.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.88784375,"end":322.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.54159375,"end":328.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.05971875,"end":329.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.29159375,"end":330.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.83159375,"end":331.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.89471875000004,"end":334.29096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.66221875,"end":334.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.32034375,"end":338.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.53971875,"end":335.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.23534375,"end":341.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.53034375000004,"end":352.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.57096875,"end":357.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.93284375,"end":362.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.02909375,"end":365.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.31971875000005,"end":368.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.47534375000004,"end":373.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.96409375,"end":373.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.98096875000005,"end":375.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.12846875,"end":380.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.83659375,"end":383.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.87846875,"end":382.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.65034375000005,"end":399.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.71534375000005,"end":402.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.24221875,"end":404.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.94659375000003,"end":405.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.38096875,"end":407.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.81534375,"end":409.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.92471875,"end":411.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.78096875,"end":420.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.65721875,"end":421.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.50096875,"end":422.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.96909375,"end":424.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.03221875,"end":424.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.31471875000005,"end":434.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.71409375,"end":435.01784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.35534375000003,"end":444.68721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.68721875000006,"end":466.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.84409375,"end":472.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.26096875,"end":474.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.13784375000006,"end":481.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.45784375000005,"end":481.49159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.45346875,"end":482.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.47034375000004,"end":490.31721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.15721875,"end":488.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.37221875000006,"end":491.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.59971875,"end":504.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.96471875000003,"end":518.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.9878437500001,"end":521.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.58221875,"end":530.3447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.74971875,"end":538.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.6259687500001,"end":544.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":545.34659375,"end":546.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.72596875,"end":548.3503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":549.0759687500001,"end":550.6115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.9153437500001,"end":553.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.08784375,"end":555.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.9440937500001,"end":560.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":560.97284375,"end":561.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.44909375,"end":565.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.76534375,"end":574.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":574.7765937500001,"end":579.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.65346875,"end":581.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.03721875,"end":581.5434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.5434687500001,"end":581.8134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.8134687500001,"end":582.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.46721875,"end":589.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":588.4115937500001,"end":589.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.9640937500001,"end":590.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.0990937500001,"end":590.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.9765937500001,"end":618.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.2084687500001,"end":622.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":622.70159375,"end":632.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.2022187499999,"end":639.2222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.8972187500001,"end":640.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.82534375,"end":648.6215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.3515937500001,"end":648.6047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.6215937500001,"end":648.6553437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":648.6553437499999,"end":648.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":650.8828437500001,"end":651.52409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.424,"end":18.395,"text":"好 謝謝有請部長有請洪部長何委員好"},{"start":19.318,"end":46.384,"text":"好部長好部長大家都很關心喔營造業職災中最嚴重的墜落事故啊長年高居重大職業災害的首位死亡人數占高達是60到70%所以在2024年訂了一個營造業墜落打擊的年度啊目標是全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數呢是要低於68人部長墜落打擊年越打越差到底怎麼了"},{"start":48.022,"end":62.878,"text":"跟委員說明確實我們在去年沒有達到原本的這68的目標可是並沒有升加並不是越打越差啦就是還是有微幅的下降但是下降的復顧確實這個是沒有達標沒有錯"},{"start":64.96,"end":91.471,"text":"好 我們來看一下統計根據統計 自114年1月1日到4月15日因墜落滾落造成的職業災害死亡人數已經達36人是全產業那部長勞動部近期在職業安全的管理螺絲有點鬆因為今年才過不到一半距離全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數要壓低在68人以下的一個目標現在就已經超過一半那勞動部怎麼辦"},{"start":95.542,"end":110.537,"text":"今年營造業是18目前營造業死亡人數是18人18人我說的是全產業因墜落滾落造成職業災害死亡人數已達36人全產業是36營造業是18營造業是全產業的其中一部分"},{"start":116.477,"end":141.653,"text":"當然我用最高的標準去看啦那基本上我想說的是113年為例最弱滾落的死亡之災全產業人數有148人剛剛林淑芬委員說113年營造業最弱死亡之災有83人那148減83其他產業有56人65人 對不起比例其實也不少對於營造業以外的行業最弱之災部長怎麼預防"},{"start":144.551,"end":169.121,"text":"我想我們現在對於這個相關的墜落我們從法制面的修訂其實現在有做了修法的計劃那現在草案也預計在這個會期希望能夠送到立法院裡面包括要去整合這個層層轉包的包商的責任跟相關的風險那也包括要我們未來會希望能夠去追究業主的責任只是在法制面的部分"},{"start":169.141,"end":187.958,"text":"修法的話是眾多的手段之一啦法制滅你剛剛說的啦那這樣子我說4月21日台大醫院呢東外牆鷹架坍塌的一個案件為例造成移工一時事後點工時還發現少一人請問廠商在人員管理的究竟有無落實"},{"start":189.019,"end":218.039,"text":"那這個部分上當然這是個案預防發生職災上是不是做得不夠如何降災如何提升其職業的安全衛生的一個品質我想入法修法這也是一個手段那勞動部在報告中有提到加強營造業最弱的預防專案檢查部長檢查一直都有在做那現在你說要專案但為什麼職災總是發生在查查落實之後還是查查落實職業安全衛生都只是做表面的"},{"start":219.034,"end":242.128,"text":"跟文修銘我不覺得這些查查都是做表面那我們需要更努力我覺得我們是確實需要更努力可是我不同意一概而論說這些都是做表面那這樣子我們來看一下雇主跟勞工的個人職安意識會不會不足您覺得呢當然有這個當然有這個狀況那如果是這樣職安意識這部分要怎麼加強"},{"start":243.253,"end":271.101,"text":"這裡面包括剛剛其實大家談到的教育訓練我們必須更落實來這邊我來講一下你剛說的教育訓練嘛就是職業安全衛生法第32條規定僱主對勞工應實施從事工作的預防災變及必要的安全衛生訓練嘛就是所謂的教育訓練但是我們看到這個訓練規則第17條更規定僱主對新僱勞工或者在職業勞工變更工作前因此其受"},{"start":272.282,"end":299.685,"text":"適應的一個各該項工作必要一般的安全衛生部長你覺得這個教育訓練勞工的一個職災影響對整個整體發生以後重要嗎整體發生你覺得這個教育訓練對勞工的職災發生影響好 當然重要好 重要勞動部統計職災發生有近七成的人是離災者七成的人沒有教育訓練"},{"start":302.782,"end":322.752,"text":"七成是總數跟委員報告確實喔這個尤其是營造業很多都是派遣或是點工他在當天上工的時候或許在當天上工就離債的話可能在我們在查查的時候僱主就沒辦法提供出佐證的資料說他有對他做教育訓練所以就會認為他違反規定113年營造最弱83人有71人沒有教育訓練對吧"},{"start":330.339,"end":340.499,"text":"那署長您是不是要跟部長講一下這個數字應該沒有錯吧我們大概是佔七成啦對七成是非常高的部長你有看到現在的狀況嗎"},{"start":341.607,"end":367.135,"text":"所以我剛才才說我覺得我們關於教育訓練的部分需要更加的落實雖然法規在但是落實的程度不夠高這個土法還是有不足以自行現在有法規落實的程度不夠高但是為什麼落實的程度不夠高到底狀況在哪裡勞工於第一次上工時就必須接受教育訓練勞工要怎麼上課僱主要幫他上課還是要找誰去教育訓練的機構上課嗎"},{"start":369.617,"end":386.11,"text":"上課的這一天勞工薪水是否規定由雇主來給付呢應該是雇主的責任這些部分我們都相信雇主有責任但是我剛說的不是相信我們要求雇主是有責任的要求雇主要有責任但是他要怎麼上課"},{"start":386.83,"end":410.871,"text":"是雇主幫他上課還是專業的教育機構幫他上課還是雇主自己也覺得可以逃避上課這些都是在實務上很多勞工就是因為自己要去訓練機構上課上課的費用雇主也不一定會出啊然後上課當天又有可能沒有薪水當然我們相信有些人會不照法規去走"},{"start":411.937,"end":423.278,"text":"所以這個乾脆勞工就不去上課不去接受這個教育訓練所以這就是實務面我們現在遇到的一個困境所以我們到底該怎麼辦部長我剛點出的這些問題"},{"start":425.573,"end":444.138,"text":"跟委員說明 確實這個小小包的包商他沒有能去上課但是我們在法定也規定這個最大包的營造廠在這個最小包的工人進來的時候他如果還是可以集合起來幫他上課我們目前的責任上還是可以去追究到說這個最大包要做這個責任"},{"start":444.758,"end":466.174,"text":"今天大家都非常的著重在數字上的一個探討我也是但是我們也必須要找一些方法說到底這樣子的教育訓練該怎麼辦沒有辦法落實所以教育訓練沒有落實要怎麼瞭解老簡要怎麼去揪出有沒有違反時要如何處理改善的通知罰還這若只是改善通知是不是仍然可以上工"},{"start":466.934,"end":474.6,"text":"那勞工的危害變資能力還是不夠啊還是容易發生職災啊所以該怎麼辦第一次違反是只有改善通知對吧沒有錯 依照現行的規定是先通知改善所以就可以拼第一次啊"},{"start":483.223,"end":504.651,"text":"呃拼第一次通知改善嘛那拼第一次沒有死他們就賺到啊這就是雇主的態度嘛那我們要怎麼幫助勞工呃其實我們現在上課的管道是非常多如果說是派去訓練單位甚至我們現在連上網都可以上課他隨時都可以上課所以我們現在的提供給這個勞工的一個教育訓練是多種管道是可以我知道"},{"start":505.491,"end":521.186,"text":"這個待會我會強調多元管道有問題但是我要講的是第一次可以改善通知第一天的上工有可能是最危險的第一次為什麼因為他不熟悉狀況嘛不熟悉整體的一個勞工環境嘛所以我要講的是說我們現在看到的這個問題"},{"start":522.657,"end":546.703,"text":"我們的教育訓練在第一次改善通知這樣子的一個著重點有可能造成很多僱主想要拼看看那再來怎麼勞檢怎麼樣強力的稽查所謂的教育訓練這個區塊我覺得這個部分是可以來努力的再來治安署從109年開始花了多少錢做數位學習教材剛剛你有提到多元嘛到現在又有多少勞工使用"},{"start":548.019,"end":561.381,"text":"請問一下,成效是否符合我們這樣子所有的經費花費?職安署可以幫我們回答一下好,跟委員報告,確實這個部分當時開發以後你花了多少錢?跟大家分享"},{"start":564.505,"end":581.961,"text":"大概每年300萬的維護每年300萬好 那每年300萬那你覺得有多少勞工使用剛剛我們講了有七成的人沒有這樣子的一個教育訓練喔那有多少的人去使用了所謂的數位學習教材你覺得成效有符合你編列這個經費嗎"},{"start":583.622,"end":610.508,"text":"跟委員報告目前在這個網上上過課大概有30萬人次啦30萬人次 到底是掛課然後大家打開了以後有沒有在前面學習我們也不太知道啦那當然這不是你的錯如果還有這樣子的行為這不是你的錯但是如果沒有安排教育訓練只能依職業安全衛生法第四五條除以新台幣3萬以上15萬以下的罰款依然可以上工喔但這不是很怪嗎"},{"start":611.548,"end":638.536,"text":"該安排教育訓練的沒有落實等於職業安全衛生法第32條形同虛設所以我要講的是今天我們點出的這些問題治安署要怎麼樣去加強這部分要麻煩你好不好那部長我所點出的這些問題我覺得今天我們探討時事嘛就數據上的一個去依據這些問題我們希望說能夠點出這些問題也希望部長能夠多關心當然我覺得針對剛才說教育訓練的部分怎麼樣更加的落實或更多的有效的管道這部分我會來請"},{"start":639.983,"end":648.417,"text":"自然出來檢討怎麼勞檢然後怎麼樣他第一次要去認真的上課然後他有沒有怎麼上課過程怎麼樣我覺得我們要更多關心是謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":671,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時38分）謝謝，有請部長。"],["主席：有請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：羅委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。部長，大家都很關心，營造業職災中最嚴重的墜落事故常年高居重大職業災害的首位，死亡人數高達60%到70%，所以將2024年定為營造業墜落打擊年，目標是全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數要低於68人。部長，墜落打擊年越打越差，到底怎麼了？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，確實我們在去年沒有達到原本68人的目標，可是並沒有增加，不是越打越差，還是有微幅的下降，但是下降的幅度確實沒有達標，沒有錯。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我們來看一下，根據統計，自114年1月1日到4月15日，因墜落、滾落造成的職業災害死亡人數已經達36人，是全產業。部長，勞動部近期在職業安全的管理螺絲有點鬆，因為今年才過不到一半，距離全年營造業墜落職災死亡人數要壓低在68人以下的目標，現在就已經超過一半，勞動部怎麼辦？"],["洪部長申翰：今年營造業是18。"],["羅委員廷瑋：什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：目前營造業死亡人數是18人。"],["羅委員廷瑋：18人？我說的是全產業因墜落、滾落造成職業災害死亡人數已達36人，我剛才講的是全產業。"],["洪部長申翰：全產業是36人，營造業是18人，營造業是全產業的其中一部分。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然我是用最高的標準去看，基本上我想說的是，以113年為例，墜落、滾落的死亡職災全產業人數有148人。剛剛林淑芬委員說113年營造業墜落死亡職災有83人，148減83，其他產業有65人，比例其實也不少。對於營造業以外的行業墜落職災，部長，怎麼預防？"],["洪部長申翰：現在對於相關的墜落，我們從法制面的修訂，其實現在有做了修法的計畫，草案也預計在這個會期希望能夠送到立法院，包括要去整合層層轉包的包商責任跟相關的風險，也包括我們未來會希望能夠去追究業主的責任，這是在法制面的部分。"],["羅委員廷瑋：修法是眾多手段之一，就是你剛剛說的法制面。我以4月21號臺大醫院東外牆鷹架坍塌的案件為例，造成移工一死，事後點工時還發現少一人，請問廠商在人員的管理上究竟有無落實？關於這個部分，當然這是個案，在預防發生職災上是不是做得不夠？如何降災、如何提升其職業安全衛生的品質？我想入法、修法也是一個手段。勞動部在報告中有提到加強營造業墜落預防的專案檢查，部長，檢查一直都有在做，現在你說要專案，但為什麼職災總是發生在查察落實之後？還是查察落實職業安全衛生都只是做表面的？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我不覺得這些查察都是做表面，我們需要更努力，我覺得我們是確實需要更努力，可是我不同意一概而論地說這些都是做表面。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這樣子的話，我們來看一下，雇主跟勞工的個人職安意識會不會不足？您覺得呢？"],["洪部長申翰：當然有這個狀況。"],["羅委員廷瑋：如果是這樣，職安意識這部分要怎麼加強？"],["洪部長申翰：這裡面包括剛剛大家談到的教育訓練我們必須更落實。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這邊我來講一下，你剛剛說教育訓練，就是職業安全衛生法第三十二條第一項規定：「雇主對勞工應施以從事工作與預防災變所必要之安全衛生教育及訓練」，就是所謂的教育訓練，但是我們看到職業安全衛生教育訓練規則第十七條第一項更規定：「雇主對新僱勞工或在職勞工於變更工作前，應使其接受適於各該工作必要之一般安全衛生教育訓練」。部長，你覺得這個教育訓練對勞工的職災影響、對整體發生以後重要嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：整體發生？"],["羅委員廷瑋：你覺得這個教育訓練對勞工的職災發生影響……"],["洪部長申翰：當然重要。"],["羅委員廷瑋：據勞動部統計，職災發生的罹災者有七成是沒有教育訓練，七成是總數。"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，尤其是營造業，確實很多都是派遣或是點工，他們或許在當天上工就罹災的話，可能我們在查察的時候，雇主就沒辦法提供出佐證的資料說有對他做教育訓練，所以就會認為他違反規定。"],["羅委員廷瑋：113年營造業墜落死亡人數是83人，有71人沒有教育訓練，對吧？署長，你是不是要跟部長講一下，這個數字應該沒有錯吧？"],["林署長毓堂：對，應該是占七成。"],["羅委員廷瑋：七成是非常高的，部長，你有看到現在的狀況嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：對，所以我剛才才會說，我覺得我們關於教育訓練的部分需要更加地落實，雖然有法規在，但是落實的程度不夠高，徒法還是有不足以自行的狀況。"],["羅委員廷瑋：現在有法規，但落實的程度不夠高，為什麼落實的程度不夠高？到底狀況在哪裡？勞工於第一次上工時就必須接受教育訓練，勞工要怎麼上課？是雇主要幫他上課，還是要找誰？去教育訓練的機構上課嗎？上課的這一天，勞工薪水是否規定由雇主來給付呢？"],["洪部長申翰：應該是雇主的責任。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這些部分我們都相信雇主有責任，但是我剛剛說的，他怎麼上課？"],["洪部長申翰：不是相信，我們要求雇主是有責任。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，要求雇主要有責任，但是他要怎麼上課？是雇主幫他上課，還是專業的教育機構幫他上課，還是雇主自己也覺得可以逃避上課？這些都是在實務上很多勞工就是因為自己要去訓練機構上課，上課的費用雇主也不一定會出，然後上課當天又有可能沒有薪水，當然我們相信有些人會不照法規去走，所以乾脆勞工就不去上課、不去接受這個教育訓練，這就是實務面我們現在遇到的一個困境，我們到底該怎麼辦？部長，我剛剛點出的這些問題。"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員說明，確實小小包的包商，他沒有能力上課，但是我們在法令上也規定最大包的營造廠在最小包的工人進來時，他還是可以集合起來幫他上課，我們目前在責任上還是可以去追究到最大包要做到這個責任。"],["羅委員廷瑋：今天大家都非常著重在數字上的探討，我也是，但是我們也必須要找一些方法，到底這樣子的教育訓練該怎麼辦？沒有辦法落實，所以教育訓練沒有落實，要怎麼了解？勞檢要怎麼去糾出？有沒有違反時要如何處理？改善的通知、罰鍰之後，若只是改善通知，是不是仍然可以上工？那麼勞工的危害辨知能力還是不夠，還是容易發生職災啊！所以該怎麼辦？第一次違反是只有改善通知，對吧？"],["林署長毓堂：沒有錯，依照現行規定是先通知改善。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以就可以拚第一次啊！拚第一次通知改善嘛！拚第一次沒有死，他們就賺到啊！"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告……"],["羅委員廷瑋：這就是雇主的態度嘛！我們要怎麼幫助勞工？"],["林署長毓堂：其實我們現在上課的管道非常多，如果說是派去訓練單位，甚至現在連上網都可以上課，他隨時都可以上課，所以我們現在提供給勞工的教育訓練是多種管道，是可以……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，待會我會強調多元管道有問題，但是我要講的是，第一次可以改善通知，第一天的上工有可能是最危險的第一次，為什麼？因為他不熟悉狀況、不熟悉整體的勞工環境。所以我要講的是，我們現在看到這個問題，我們的教育訓練在第一次是改善通知，這樣子的一個著重點有可能造成很多雇主想要拚看看。其次，怎麼勞檢、怎麼強力稽查所謂的教育訓練這個區塊？我覺得這個部分是可以來努力的。再來，職安署從109年開始花了多少錢做數位學習教材？剛剛你有提到多元，到現在又有多少勞工使用？請問一下，成效是否符合我們這樣子所有的經費、花費？職安署可以幫我們回答一下嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，確實這個部分當時開發以後……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你們花了多少錢？跟大家分享。"],["林署長毓堂：大概每年300萬的維護費。"],["羅委員廷瑋：每年300萬？"],["林署長毓堂：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：每年300萬，你覺得有多少勞工使用？剛剛我們講了，有七成的人沒有這樣子的教育訓練，有多少的人去使用了所謂的數位學習教材？你覺得成效有符合你們編列的這個經費嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，目前在這個網站上過課的大概有30萬人次。"],["羅委員廷瑋：30萬人次？"],["林署長毓堂：對，30萬人次。"],["羅委員廷瑋：到底是否為掛課，大家打開了以後，有沒有在前面學習，我們也不太知道。當然這不是你的錯，如果他有這樣子的行為，這不是你的錯，但是如果沒有安排教育訓練，只能依職業安全衛生法第四十五條的規定，處新臺幣三萬元以上、十五萬元以下罰鍰，依然可以上工，這不是很怪嗎？該安排教育訓練的沒有落實，等於職業安全衛生法第三十二條形同虛設。所以我要講的是，今天我們點出了這些問題，職安署要怎麼樣去加強？這部分要麻煩你，好不好？部長，我所點出的這些問題，我覺得今天我們探討實事，就是數據上的這些問題，我們希望能夠點出這些問題，也希望部長能夠多關心。"],["洪部長申翰：當然，我覺得針對剛才說的教育訓練部分，怎麼樣更加落實或更多的有效管道，這部分我會請職安署檢討。"],["羅委員廷瑋：怎麼勞檢，然後怎麼樣他第一次要去認真上課，他有沒有上課、過程怎麼樣？我覺得我們要有更多的關心。"],["洪部長申翰：是，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：謝謝。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}},{"id":"160797","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160797","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423699857264f66c141363c0ba1d923b4b8dbd78ea87b1712f882903ae40ffbf143735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:32:28 - 11:42:22","影片長度":"00:09:54","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:32:28+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:42:22+08:00","duration":594,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.54034375,"end":9.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.054718750000003,"end":10.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.117843750000002,"end":14.020343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.20596875,"end":15.117218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.33221875,"end":16.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.99034375,"end":17.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.09971875,"end":19.656593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.247218750000002,"end":22.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.04846875,"end":24.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.410968750000002,"end":27.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.36846875,"end":27.773468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.773468750000003,"end":27.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.874718750000003,"end":30.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.96284375,"end":31.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.97971875,"end":31.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.45221875,"end":31.570343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.85721875,"end":32.869718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.52784375,"end":33.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.54471875,"end":36.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.02096875,"end":40.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.42534375,"end":41.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.44221875,"end":43.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.47596875,"end":42.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.37034375,"end":42.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.22659375,"end":45.509093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.829718750000005,"end":46.791593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.791593750000004,"end":48.462218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.58471875,"end":48.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.799718750000004,"end":50.048468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.132843750000006,"end":50.149718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.18346875,"end":50.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.20034375,"end":51.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.38159375,"end":52.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.49534375,"end":52.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.51221875,"end":57.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.680968750000005,"end":54.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.789718750000006,"end":60.291593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.73034375,"end":61.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.82721875,"end":63.649718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.17284375,"end":69.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.31159375,"end":67.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.53096875,"end":67.59846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.82596875,"end":70.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.61909375,"end":70.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.96909375,"end":72.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.71159375,"end":72.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.82096875,"end":74.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.87159375,"end":76.45784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.09909375000001,"end":77.94284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.94284375000001,"end":86.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.27471875,"end":87.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.29159375,"end":96.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.56034375,"end":95.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.04971875000001,"end":96.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.06659375000001,"end":101.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.35346875,"end":97.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.31909375000001,"end":101.97284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.97284375000001,"end":102.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.02346875,"end":102.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.96846875,"end":103.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.03596875000001,"end":116.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.29284375,"end":107.65971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.65971875000001,"end":107.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.97471875000001,"end":118.57784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.74659375,"end":120.07971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.09221875,"end":123.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.43784375000001,"end":123.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.84284375000001,"end":126.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.18846875000001,"end":126.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.44159375000001,"end":126.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.50909375,"end":132.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.41096875,"end":136.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.78596875,"end":140.61659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.81909375,"end":142.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.50221875,"end":143.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.80596875,"end":143.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.97471875000002,"end":144.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.71284375000002,"end":151.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.04971875,"end":150.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.02846875,"end":151.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.91409375,"end":156.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.28909375,"end":161.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.62159375000002,"end":167.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.70096875000002,"end":180.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.80221875,"end":168.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.52596875,"end":180.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.40346875,"end":181.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.42034375,"end":185.68971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.14534375000002,"end":187.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.19596875000002,"end":194.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.27909375000002,"end":194.54909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.54909375000003,"end":194.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.56596875000002,"end":194.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.76846875,"end":194.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.78534375,"end":197.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.22784375,"end":201.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.39596875,"end":207.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.16721875000002,"end":211.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.11596875,"end":220.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.52034375000002,"end":217.34721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.67159375000003,"end":224.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.87346875,"end":226.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.25284375,"end":228.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.02471875,"end":231.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.91034375,"end":233.78346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.47096875000003,"end":236.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.97284375,"end":237.56346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":238.01909375000002,"end":245.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.39034375000003,"end":239.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.50784375,"end":245.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.69721875000002,"end":246.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.40159375000002,"end":248.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.37596875000003,"end":250.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.89034375000003,"end":254.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.64096875,"end":258.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.11346875,"end":256.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.78784375000004,"end":264.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.13284375,"end":267.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.22096875,"end":270.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.36409375,"end":272.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.95034375,"end":274.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.49409375,"end":278.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":278.97471875,"end":279.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.27846875,"end":281.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.65346875,"end":283.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.63596875,"end":288.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.70721875000004,"end":297.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.08971875000003,"end":300.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.74346875000003,"end":301.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.74721875,"end":304.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.70909375,"end":305.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.51471875000004,"end":307.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.32034375,"end":308.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.79284375000003,"end":309.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.44659375000003,"end":311.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.88096875,"end":313.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.31534375,"end":315.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.28534375000004,"end":317.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.00659375000004,"end":318.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.00221875,"end":321.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.96784375000004,"end":324.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":324.53721875,"end":324.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.73971875,"end":325.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":325.22909375,"end":325.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.48221875,"end":327.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":327.10221875,"end":327.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":327.84471875,"end":327.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.09784375000004,"end":328.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.53221875,"end":333.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.51471875000004,"end":348.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":348.97221875,"end":349.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.42784375,"end":349.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":349.46159375,"end":358.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":358.81034375,"end":360.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.97909375,"end":360.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":360.32909375,"end":360.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":360.43034375,"end":364.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.83471875000004,"end":368.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.83846875,"end":368.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.49659375000005,"end":372.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.36534375,"end":371.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.47909375,"end":374.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.39846875,"end":379.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.51159375000003,"end":381.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.09784375000004,"end":382.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.09346875,"end":388.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.30346875000004,"end":390.36659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.75034375,"end":392.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.20596875,"end":392.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.58971875000003,"end":411.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.55784375,"end":408.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.08471875000004,"end":418.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.05846875000003,"end":418.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.35784375000003,"end":419.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.37471875,"end":422.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.62721875000005,"end":425.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.35659375,"end":429.95534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.61346875000004,"end":430.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.18284375,"end":433.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.88284375,"end":435.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.36784375,"end":437.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.70096875,"end":440.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.94096875,"end":441.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.42596875000004,"end":443.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.41721875,"end":445.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.20596875,"end":447.64034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.60221875,"end":449.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.25159375000004,"end":451.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.16284375000004,"end":452.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.04034375000003,"end":455.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.66846875000005,"end":457.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.71034375000005,"end":459.87471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.41034375000004,"end":469.61159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.79721875,"end":472.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.96971875,"end":473.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.77971875000003,"end":473.79659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.31971875000005,"end":478.53846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.99409375000005,"end":480.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.03596875000005,"end":482.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.03159375,"end":483.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.34346875000006,"end":493.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.99596875000003,"end":495.70034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.86471875,"end":498.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.80534375,"end":503.29409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.51346875,"end":504.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.59784375000004,"end":505.04909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.04909375000005,"end":511.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":513.6047187500001,"end":514.4990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.4990937499999,"end":514.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.5834687500001,"end":517.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.09346875,"end":520.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":521.2322187500001,"end":524.2865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.1809687500001,"end":525.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.93596875,"end":528.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.03284375,"end":532.2009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.56846875,"end":530.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.3528437500001,"end":532.6397187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.6015937500001,"end":534.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.63909375,"end":539.3390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.7397187500001,"end":543.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.1484687500001,"end":545.1272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.03846875,"end":547.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.6328437500001,"end":552.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.2609687500001,"end":556.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.7665937500001,"end":558.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.9097187500001,"end":561.5634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.9809687500001,"end":563.5209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.05659375,"end":567.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.83659375,"end":568.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.95471875,"end":568.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.97159375,"end":569.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.0390937500001,"end":574.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.0559687500001,"end":569.6128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.1865937499999,"end":571.9584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.31659375,"end":577.3247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.40471875,"end":582.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.8428437499999,"end":583.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.0872187500001,"end":587.0447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.4622187500001,"end":590.6728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.46596875,"end":592.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":592.9678437499999,"end":593.6765937499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.574,"end":16.752,"text":"谢谢主席有请农业部陈部长陈部长动森物防疫检疫署徐署长徐署长"},{"start":20.485,"end":42.873,"text":"這個部長,我們在桃園機場,它有這個動植物,就是回國的這個國人啊,他的所提的行李要再經過安檢一次,對不對?那主要目的是什麼?最主要是偵測,夾帶有這種動植物本身不可攜帶的這些物品,特別是要檢疫的。那是委外嗎?"},{"start":44.784,"end":72.667,"text":"一部分委外委外的人力啦全部委外嘛我看不到你們的人啊我看不到你們的人 全部都是委外的你一年經費會變多少錢有將近五億五億就執行這個安檢五億那這是在所有的在境外安檢的部分安檢的部分大概差不多一億一億 好小港局長有沒有"},{"start":74.918,"end":104.248,"text":"小港機場沒有為什麼小港機場沒有空間的問題應該全國一致嘛你只要是港口只要是海關只要是機場應該是一致的嘛都從國外都從國外回來啊為什麼只有桃園機場我跟委員報告齁就是小港機場因為它的停機坪下來以後的那個空間的空間的動線的問題你不能因為空間但是它在海關那邊但是它在海關那邊有檢查全部檢查那你桃園機場你就把它撤掉用海關來檢查就好啦不是"},{"start":104.668,"end":131.446,"text":"那桃園市長因為你不能一國多製啦部長你不能一國多製我們給你一億就要做好這個邊境管制避免從國外攜帶這個農食產品對不對包括這個豬瘟的問題等等有綠色有紅色對不對我們多一個程序為了一個把關那你只有桃園市長有好我支持你但你要落實怎麼落實要專業人來看"},{"start":133.479,"end":161.34,"text":"是不是專業?有沒有收穫訓練?他們說有收穫訓練啊有沒有證照?他們看得出來這個是違禁品嗎?那我請教你好,一年查獲多少?多少件數?來,一年查獲多少?一年查獲...在全國來講應該原則上差不多...全國只有一處而已啊對不對?只有草原機場有啊,崧山機場有沒有?崧山機場?崧山機場沒有也沒有嘛,那你不能一國多治啊,你要做就做徹底啊"},{"start":162.657,"end":180.278,"text":"我們給你預算你就好好去執行不要有任何破口不要有任何漏洞嘛跟委員說我們是因地制宜啦因為在台灣機場它整個台灣機場比較危險啊沒有它整個進來的整個人流其實它超乎我們在我們所有的不能因為人流多你就"},{"start":181.762,"end":201.682,"text":"你就管制人流少小港機場這個人流有不少耶那航班也不少啊在其他的機場比如說像在松崎還有在小港機場海關幫忙那我們人員 正職人員也在現場那你海關可以幫忙的話我就跟你講你在移椅我們就把它砍掉了是不是跟你移椅是要做好邊境管制嘛"},{"start":202.483,"end":223.554,"text":"對不對 你就要全面去落實所以我看了很多 台中也有國際競技場 對不對好 我們就小港 松山跟桃園我就覺得為什麼你這個桃園有 松山跟小港沒有另外啊 你們確實執行有沒有這個專業技術你執行查核多少數量 裁罰金額多少"},{"start":225.232,"end":244.531,"text":"這個資料是要請會後提供不要留意形勢或者不要有這個因地制宜防疫沒有因地制宜的啦高雄防疫比較強是不是高雄防疫比較弱我跟委員報告你所提的我會後會請環境局來檢討我已經提供好幾次了你去現場看看他們是怎麼在檢查的有沒有專業"},{"start":252.186,"end":274.097,"text":"我曾經到機場去視察過,那這些檢查在那邊我沒有去視察,我經過十幾次我當然充分配合,也觀察他們檢查的動線,檢查的流程沒有看到一個防檢局的人,一位都沒有你可以完全委外嗎?那麼公選你怎麼執行呢?"},{"start":276.707,"end":282.811,"text":"證明好好確實檢討所以我們會來檢討不要講一講用什麼 欸明天就忘了不會這個齁 這個局長 那個誰局長 這個你要用心點 你要去看一下然後你要檢討一下為什麼小港不需要為什麼松山不需要 交給海關就可以了這個不是理由齁 你沒有辦法說服我另外這個"},{"start":306.55,"end":327.492,"text":"部長你去過日本跟韓國嘛是應該常常去日本韓國不管是都會區或者一般的鄉村區流浪口是不是很少很少為什麼韓國跟日本流浪口那麼少你們有這個原因在哪裡這要不要說明一下您知不知道我先問你您知不知道"},{"start":329.568,"end":348.786,"text":"他甚至可以工作別人可以做到那麼好你應該去學習啊出國你就是了解別的其他國家哪一點做得好我們可以去學習你們可以跟相關的他們的單位主管單位去請教去學習或者去交流他們怎麼把流浪狗 流浪犬做好管理"},{"start":349.606,"end":374.566,"text":"我所了解就是說其實飼主責任是一個非常重要的關鍵那在日本因為牠有冬天所以牠的流浪狗本身那加上台灣台灣還有零撲殺這個政策那現在零撲殺的一些抓捕都是用收容所的量牠們對動物是犬貓是非常友善的國度啊而能夠有效的做好管理"},{"start":375.755,"end":390.195,"text":"給犬貓一個友善的環境那又沒有流浪犬貓造成的問題欸人家做得很好啊那我問你主管機關人家哪裡做得好你答不出來對不對 你沒有做功課來 市長"},{"start":393.632,"end":418.11,"text":"那個報告委員那個日韓主要的部分是兩個部分第一個是在施主責任的要求那這部分的要求是有相對徹底的那第二個部分那他們針對不同的一個地區的一個處理有採取不同的措施那他們今天我們可以學習嗎我們這家修法能不能入法呢目前我們一直朝這個方向在做那個法制上的建構人家做得到我們沒有做不到的道理啦"},{"start":419.42,"end":445.192,"text":"做不到就是我們主管機關這個沒有做好法治面不足 執行面不夠我就不相信人家做得到韓國韓國能做得到我們做不到我們一天到晚還在為流浪犬冒問題因為我一個選民因為流浪犬衝出來他下班途中"},{"start":446.263,"end":452.626,"text":"一個五十幾歲的一個媽媽這樣衝出來反映墓跡水淚殘哪有照啊這種絕對不是個案"},{"start":461.902,"end":481.724,"text":"你這流浪犬好好管理我在問你的報告裡面你103到11110年你編的多少錢補助各縣市來新建這個東部收容宿舍報告委員如果這10年的話平均大概應該是每年大概2億總共編的多少錢目前應該是編到18億"},{"start":484.537,"end":511.092,"text":"你就照你的報告來看 你的報告寫給我 照你的報告來問你嘛你變了二十億 你補助二十億個縣市嘛 對不對那我目前啊 全國公立收容所總進可收容幾隻犬貓加起來總共有幾隻應該一萬一千隻一萬一千隻 這算是正確的你未來從一一四到一一九 還有沒有相關的計畫"},{"start":513.829,"end":539.165,"text":"應該有持續吧報告委員我們目前有提支忠誠的計畫那目前院還沒核定忠誠的計畫叫什麼名字那個友善動物保護計畫的第二期錯114到119是擴展動物收容量及場域優化計畫哪有第二期哪有第二期你會報告你就沒心錯你主管的局面在做什麼"},{"start":541.4,"end":566.74,"text":"你來這裡不是說這麼多年沒什麼事我們有準備我從頭到尾每天都在出門有時候就要幫你計算看你有準備沒有看你有好好做行為沒有我拿你的簿給你問你怎麼答不出來我怎麼樣對你們有信心是不是剩下的我其他用順便來問時間到了"},{"start":569.365,"end":591.971,"text":"農業部要加油啦各司數 我剛問的問題 我會繼續再追我希望你們讓國人能夠安心讓流浪 讓全貓有一個好的環境一個友善的環境把這些問題全部根除 可不可以解決日韓做得到 我們沒有理由做不到加油吧好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":738,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時32分）謝謝主席，有請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["邱委員志偉：還有動植物防疫檢疫署的徐署長。"],["主席：徐署長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，我請教你第一個問題，我們在桃園機場有動植物的檢疫，就是回國國人所提的行李要再經過一次安檢，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：主要的目的是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：最主要是偵測是否有夾帶不可攜帶的動植物，特別是要檢疫的。"],["邱委員志偉：那是委外嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：有一部分是委外的人力。"],["邱委員志偉：全部委外嘛，我看不到你們的人啦！"],["陳部長駿季：請署長回答一下。"],["徐署長榮彬：跟委員報告，有部分是正職……"],["邱委員志偉：你們回去檢討一下，因為我看不到你們的人，全部都是委外的，你們一年的經費是編列多少錢？"],["徐署長榮彬：有將近5億。"],["邱委員志偉：執行這個安檢就編5億？"],["徐署長榮彬：這是所有在境外的……"],["邱委員志偉：我是問安檢的部分。"],["徐署長榮彬：安檢的部分大概差不多1億。"],["邱委員志偉：好，小港機場有沒有？"],["徐署長榮彬：小港機場沒有。"],["邱委員志偉：為什麼小港機場沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：空間的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：應該全國一致嘛！只要是港口、只要是海關、只要是機場，應該是一致的嘛，都是從國外回來啊！為什麼只有桃園機場有？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，因為在小港機場從停機坪下來以後的那個空間動線的問題……"],["邱委員志偉：你不能因為空間不夠就不設。"],["陳部長駿季：但是在海關那邊有全部檢查。"],["邱委員志偉：那你就把桃園機場的撤掉，用海關來檢查就好了。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，在桃園機場是因為人流比較多。"],["邱委員志偉：你不能一國多制啦！部長，你不能一國多制，我們給你1億，你就要做好邊境管制，避免從國外攜帶動植物或其產品，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：包括豬瘟的問題等等，有綠色通道，也有紅色通道，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：我們多一個程序就是為了把關，那你只有桃園機場有，好，我支持你，但是你要落實，要怎麼落實？要由專業人員來看，是不是專業？有沒有受過訓練？"],["陳部長駿季：他們都有受過訓練啊！"],["邱委員志偉：有沒有證照？他們看得出來這個是違禁品嗎？那我請教你，一年查獲多少件數？"],["徐署長榮彬：在全國來講，原則上一年查獲差不多……"],["邱委員志偉：全國只有一處而已，只有桃園機場有，松山機場有沒有？"],["徐署長榮彬：松山機場沒有。"],["邱委員志偉：也沒有嘛！你不能一國多制，你要做就做澈底，我們給你預算你就要好好去執行，不要有任何破口，不要有任何漏洞，是不是這樣子？"],["徐署長榮彬：跟委員說明，原則上我們是因地制宜，因為在桃園機場……"],["邱委員志偉：桃園機場比較危險？"],["徐署長榮彬：沒有，它整個進來的人流其實是超乎我們在所有的……"],["邱委員志偉：不能因為人流多，你就管制，小港機場的人流也不少，它的航班也不少。"],["徐署長榮彬：在其他的機場，比如在松機以及小港機場原則上是由海關幫忙，我們的正職人員也在現場。"],["邱委員志偉：如果海關可以幫忙的話，我跟你講，這1億我們就把它砍掉了，給你1億是要做好邊境管制，你就要全面去落實，我看了很多，臺中也有國際機場，對不對？就小港、松山及桃園來講，為什麼桃園有，松山和小港沒有？另外，你們在確實執行上有沒有這個專業技術？你執行查獲多少數量？裁罰金額多少？這個資料再請會後提供。"],["徐署長榮彬：好。"],["邱委員志偉：不要流於形式或者不要有因地制宜，防疫沒有因地制宜的，高雄的防疫比較強，桃園的防疫比較弱，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，你所提的我會後會請防檢局來檢討，就是要有一致性的部分。"],["邱委員志偉：我已經提過好幾次了，你去現場看看他們是怎麼樣檢查的，有沒有專業？"],["陳部長駿季：我曾經到機場去視察過，這些檢查……"],["邱委員志偉：我沒有去視察，我經過十幾次了，我當然充分配合，也觀察他們的檢查動線、檢查流程，沒有看到一個防檢局的人，一位都沒有，你可以完全委外嗎？你的公權力怎麼執行呢？這個你們好好確實檢討。"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們會來檢討。"],["邱委員志偉：不要在這邊講一講明天就忘了。"],["陳部長駿季：不會。"],["邱委員志偉：徐署長，這個你要用心一點，你要去看一下，然後也要檢討一下為什麼小港不需要，為什麼松山不需要？交給海關就可以了，這個不是理由，你沒有辦法說服我。","另外，部長，你去過日本跟韓國嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員志偉：應該常常去，日本、韓國不管是都會區或者一般的鄉村區，流浪狗是不是很少？"],["陳部長駿季：很少。"],["邱委員志偉：為什麼韓國和日本的流浪狗那麼少，你們知道這個原因在哪裡嗎？我先問你，你知不知道？"],["陳部長駿季：我不瞭解。"],["邱委員志偉：他山之石，可以攻錯，別人可以做到那麼好，你應該去學習，出國就是要瞭解其他國家哪一點做得好，我們可以去學習，你們可以跟他們的相關單位、主管單位去請教、去學習或者去交流，他們怎麼把流浪犬貓做好管理。"],["陳部長駿季：就我所瞭解，其實飼主責任是一個非常重要的關鍵，在日本因為有冬天，所以它的流浪狗本身……"],["邱委員志偉：冬天它就不出來了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：加上臺灣還有零撲殺政策，現在零撲殺的一些抓捕都是用收容所的量。"],["邱委員志偉：他們是對動物、對犬貓非常友善的國度，而能夠有效的做好管理，給犬貓一個友善的環境，又沒有流浪犬貓造成的問題，人家做得很好，我問主管機關人家哪裡做得好，你答不出來代表你們沒有做功課，司長。"],["江司長文全：報告委員，日韓主要有兩個部分，第一個是在飼主責任的要求，這部分的要求是相對澈底的。第二個部分是他們針對不同地區的處理有採取不同的措施。"],["邱委員志偉：他們的經驗我們可以學習嗎？我們是不是要修法、能不能入法呢？"],["江司長文全：目前我們是朝這個方向在做法制上的建構。"],["邱委員志偉：人家做得到，我們沒有做不到的道理，做不到就是我們主管機關沒有做好，法制面不足、執行面不夠，我就不相信韓國能做得到，我們做不到，我們一天到晚還要為了流浪犬貓的問題……我有一個選民是五十幾歲的媽媽，在他下班途中，因為流浪犬這樣衝出來，他反應不及跌倒，人就過世了。這種絕對不是個案，流浪犬貓要好好管理。我再問你，你的報告裡面提到103年到113年10年編列多少錢補助各縣市新建動物收容處所？"],["江司長文全：報告委員，這10年每年平均大概2億。"],["邱委員志偉：總共編列多少錢？"],["江司長文全：目前應該是編到18億。"],["邱委員志偉：照你的報告來看，這是你寫的報告，我照你的報告來問你，你編了20億補助21個縣市，對不對？"],["江司長文全：對。"],["邱委員志偉：目前全國公立收容所總計可收容幾隻犬貓？"],["陳部長駿季：應該1萬1,000隻。"],["邱委員志偉：1萬1,000隻這個數量是正確的，未來從114到119年還有沒有相關的計畫？"],["江司長文全：報告委員，我們目前有提一支中程計畫，院還沒核定。"],["邱委員志偉：中程計畫叫什麼名字？"],["江司長文全：友善動物保護計畫的第二期。"],["邱委員志偉：錯！114年到119年是擴展動物收容量能及場域優化計畫，哪來第二期？你的報告你都不清楚，主管機關在做什麼？你來這裡不是這樣坐在那裡沒事，也是要有所準備，我早上六點半就要出門，為了要質詢你們，看你們有沒有準備，看你們有沒有好好工作，我拿你的報告來問你，你都答不出來，我要怎麼樣對你們有信心嘛？其他剩下的我用書面來問，時間到了，農業部要加油啦！"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員，我們會檢討。"],["邱委員志偉：我剛剛問的問題，我會繼續再追，我希望你們讓國人能夠安心，讓流浪犬貓有一個好的環境，一個友善的環境，把這些問題全部根除、全部解決，日韓做得到，我們沒有理由做不到，加油吧！"],["主席：謝謝。現在作以下宣告：我們中午不休息，延長開會時間。","現在請張嘉郡委員做詢答。"],["張委員嘉郡：（11時42）謝謝主席，我想請部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，剛才邱志偉委員在問有關於入境時的審查，本席也接到很多的陳情，只要不是從日本或者是歐美國家回來的都沒有一個卡，所以必須在機場接受檢驗，但是有很多鄉親認為他沒有手提行李，但是他卻必須大排長龍，而且那個隊伍甚至要排高達一個小時。部長，是不是能夠安排有手提行李的才檢查，沒有手提行李的，你讓他在那裡排隊，這樣合理嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個部分，因為人流的關係，我們是針對高風險區才會進到手提行李檢查的部分，你剛才說的從高風險區進來，他沒有手提行李的話……"],["張委員嘉郡：是不是要分流一下？"],["陳部長駿季：後續我們可以用引導員把他分流，這個部分我們會來檢討。"],["張委員嘉郡：對，把他分流，否則他沒有行李，他也等了一個多小時，他問現場人員說我沒有行李，我可以先走嗎？現場人員說不行，你要在這裡排隊，那就不合理嘛！好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：現在應該是不用吧？"],["張委員嘉郡：沒有，現在要，這個禮拜天才有鄉親打電話給我抗議。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會再落實宣導。"],["張委員嘉郡：鄉親才打電話來抗議，而且他們都是企業家，一群企業家去開會，怎麼全部被塞在那個隊伍裡面，部長，這一點……"],["陳部長駿季：如果沒有帶行李的話，我想我們用分流的方式來處理。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這一點麻煩部長。","另外，部長，最近有很多返鄉從農的青農朋友提出了一些困難點，我也想在這裡跟部長反映，希望部長能夠正面回應、協助解決，現行規定中，農民如果要申請外籍移工通常需要具備農保資格，我手上就有一個非常值得作為檢討範例的案例。我先問一下部長，你歡迎過去等於是勞保，他可能非自願離職之後回到從事農業這樣子的勞動力嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這個也是我們從事農業的來源之一，就是過往他還年輕，曾經從事其他的工作，是用勞保，後來返鄉務農，我覺得這塊的人也是需要受到照顧的。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以部長是歡迎的，也歡迎他們回來？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：我舉例一下，這個農民當初因為非自願離職遭資遣，符合勞保條例第九條之一規定，被裁減資遣且加保年資滿15年以上的勞工可以繼續參加勞保，直到符合請領老年給付的日期，也就是可以一路加保到50歲，因此他選擇留在勞保體系當中，確保更完整的退休保障。選擇什麼樣子的社會福利，是他身為公民的權益，也是法律給他的保障，他來從農對於我們的農業應該也是有正面的幫助。部長，所以確定他已經回鄉務農多年，這不是個案喔，但是現在因為他是勞保，不是農保，所以他在申請農業移工的時候面臨重重困難。部長，你有可以替他們解套的方案嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個，如果他原來是勞保，可以轉農保，他的權益不會變。"],["張委員嘉郡：他的權益不會變？怎麼不會變？"],["陳部長駿季：我請我們負責勞保的同仁說明。"],["張委員嘉郡：怎麼不會變？"],["王簡任技正東良：跟委員報告，他如果從勞保退保要參加農保，只要符合農保的規定……"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在要跟你講的是，我們政府保障他身為公民的權益，他要選擇哪一種社會福利是他身為公民的權益，保勞保對他下半生的保障，他可能退休一個月可以領一萬多，但他轉農保一個月只能領八千多，你可以理解嗎？他當然希望繼續保勞保啦，這是他身為公民的權益，選擇不同的社會福利是他的權益，你怎麼會說：你可以退保加入農保啊！"],["王簡任技正東良：應該是……"],["張委員嘉郡：你知道我真正要問你的問題嗎？部長，他不了解，叫他去旁邊。"],["王簡任技正東良：跟委員報告……"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，我在問你，他不理解這個問題。"],["陳部長駿季：我了解、我了解。"],["王簡任技正東良：我知道、我知道……"],["張委員嘉郡：你不理解！來，部長，你講。"],["王簡任技正東良：就是說青農可以選擇要繼續在勞保體系，或者加入農保，他可以衡量自身的權益。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，但我問的不是這個問題，我問的是，假設他要申請移工，他必須要有農保，有沒有其他的解套方案？"],["陳部長駿季：以目前的規定是沒有辦法，因為以農業部來講，我們是針對農保，本身從事農業的人，我們會來協助他申請外籍移工……"],["張委員嘉郡：但是你剛才告訴我說你歡迎他們回來啊！你歡迎他們回來務農啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對，但是協助……"],["張委員嘉郡：但是你沒有辦法解決他們的困難呀！"],["陳部長駿季：不具農保資格的部分，如果有銷售農產品的憑證或是購買……"],["張委員嘉郡：這個我知道，就是全年銷售金額25萬以上，或者是投入農資15萬以上，並附佐證。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個也可以。"],["張委員嘉郡：可是真正的困難就在這裡，部長，真正的困難就是，實際上這套程序從佐證、舉證、審查到核可上，難度明顯高出農保非常多，這一點我相信如果您去問實際執行的農糧署基層單位一定可以了解的很清楚，真的是困難重重。所以我現在要跟部長反映的就是，我們既然歡迎這些勞動力回到農業，你們有沒有辦法去解決他們的問題呢？你這個舉證的流程、審查的流程有沒有辦法簡化或放寬，讓他們可以實際得到我們農業、農糧單位的幫助？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個，如果在程序上能夠簡化，我一定要求農糧署儘快簡化。第二個，你剛說的這些金額是不是有可能放寬，其實以現在來講，他的生產資材一年15萬，也是合理的……"],["張委員嘉郡：很合理，我只是希望他的申請流程一定要簡化。"],["陳部長駿季：流程可以簡化，我相信應該可以簡化。"],["張委員嘉郡：而且你要讓他有多一點的舉證空間，不是說侷限在什麼地方，因為你也知道現在農業要開發票是很困難的。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員嘉郡：是不是有什麼購買、交易的憑證等等……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們農民購買憑證應該也是可以的。"],["張委員嘉郡：包括他有沒有實際在務農，其實我知道你們規範這麼嚴格是怕沒有實際在務農的人，利用這個漏洞來請農業移工，但是我希望你們要想辦法去幫助真正需要的人，甚至很多農會都可以舉證這個人是不是有實際在從事農業。是不是能夠放寬這個舉證的條件，讓他有多一點的舉證空間？而不是說一定要什麼、什麼，等於是限制了很多人，他們都沒有辦法受到農業部的幫助。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員的提醒，我想這個部分，針對整個流程，包括舉證的流程、舉證的單據，看要怎麼樣簡化，我們會請農糧署做檢討，重新規定。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，麻煩部長了，我覺得這個對於我們現在面臨的農業問題，是一個很好的解決辦法，因為他們要回來，我們都很高興，這些比較年輕的勞動力願意回來投身農業，等於是為我們的農業注入一股活水，但是他們面臨的問題比過去這些傳統務農的老農更多元、更不一樣。","另外一個我必須要講的是，「友善環境植物保護資材補助」這個政策其實非常受歡迎，等於是補助有機肥料，補助農民減少化學農藥的使用，轉而採用生物農藥，補助的金額是購買憑證所列金額的二分之一，申請是從年初到經費用完。今年的預算編列多少您知道嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：大概6,500萬左右。"],["張委員嘉郡：對，6,469萬，這是從農業發展基金所提撥的，它雖然是依各縣市的農業現況來分配，但是雲林也拿到了一個算是滿高的配比，21%的……"],["陳部長駿季：對，一千三百多萬。"],["張委員嘉郡：對，一個滿高的配比，但是仍然沒有辦法滿足實際的需求，通常一開放，1月就用完了、申請完了，所以這一點我必須要跟部長提醒，因為農友們之間會互相交流，在其他的縣市，像桃園、南投，申請的難度就比較低，因為他們的作物不夠多元，比較單一，所以他們可能使用友善環境植物保護的資材比較少。這部分是不是有辦法重新調配，對於需求比較低的地方，它的比例可以釋放出來？還是整體的預算規模太小，要不要增加這個預算規模呢？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，第一個，這個預算規模一年大概是六千多萬左右，以去年來講，如果不夠我們還會去爭取二備金。不過今年就比較困難，因為今年在預算刪減的時候，我們公務撥補基金被刪了9,000萬，雖然刪得很少……"],["張委員嘉郡：這個是一點點而已。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，不對，因為刪了以後，不能動二備金……"],["張委員嘉郡：我跟部長講，假設你真的有需求，你提出來，本委員會不會不支持，只要是地方真正的需求……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，這個我一定要跟委員報告，其他的經費刪減是一回事，但是你刪了公務撥補基金，雖然說刪了九千萬，很少，但是一旦刪的話，依規定就不能動用二備金。"],["張委員嘉郡：這個我們大家再來討論，我先跟部長講，針對友善植物環境保護的資材補助，這個預算你可不可以考慮下年度編高一點？"],["陳部長駿季：對，今年是沒辦法，但是下個年度我們希望能夠編高……"],["張委員嘉郡：今年沒辦法，下個年度。"],["陳部長駿季：第二個部分，就誠如委員講的，不同縣市可能在時間上、在種類上，像雲林是比較多樣化，所以我也要求防檢署這邊分兩次，第二次的時候如果其他的縣市……"],["張委員嘉郡：沒有用完的。"],["陳部長駿季：我們就做調整，大概用這種方式做調整。"],["張委員嘉郡：彈性一點，因為真的有一些縣市的作物比較單一，它用不上，這個等於是用在真正有需要的地方。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們儘可能做調度，從不同縣市做調度。"],["張委員嘉郡：對，謝謝部長。最後，時間也有限，這一次在特別預算4,100億裡面，本來農業部可以分到180億，後來是從880億增加到930億，那農業部有沒有增加呢？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們農業部還是維持180億。"],["張委員嘉郡：這會不會太少了？我想部長一定要再極力爭取多一點。"],["陳部長駿季：第一個，最後的關稅還沒有確定，萬一關稅定案以後比現在的衝擊還大的時候，我們一定會再向行政院爭取經費。"],["張委員嘉郡：而且目前本席聽到，就是上次我們去關心臺灣鯛，我們不是說危機應該可以化為轉機嗎？結果現在中盤商都出去壓低漁民的價格欸！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，最近池邊價就已經上漲了2塊到5塊啦！"],["張委員嘉郡：沒有，昨天好幾個養殖班都來跟我講，直接產地價下殺10元。"],["陳部長駿季：沒關係，如果有產銷班的資訊，你可以給我們，我們可以來處理，因為整體的……"],["張委員嘉郡：好，對啊！太可惡了，中盤商下去就直接給他殺10塊耶！"],["陳部長駿季：這可能是有特定的產銷班去壓價啦！"],["張委員嘉郡：對啊，太可惡了！"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分變成要個案去處理啦！"],["張委員嘉郡：好，那這一點也要拜託部長。"],["陳部長駿季：如果有資料的話給我們，我們來處理。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在請郭昱晴委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","葉元之","蔡易餘","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","邱議瑩","張雅琳","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員呂玉\n玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員劉建國等 16 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案；七、本\n院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」\n案；八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員李坤城等\n22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案；十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十四、本院委員郭昱晴\n等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護\n法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保\n護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案；十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動\n物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正\n草案」案；十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案；二\n十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二十一、本院委\n員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬\n具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案；二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五\n條之二條文修正草案」案；二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等 17 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17 人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案\n（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144501_00004"}}},{"id":"160796","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160796","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369931e149a6dc879cd693dd611367b4dddd78ea87b1712f882123c9bf4d9a557af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:29:04 - 11:42:11","影片長度":"00:13:07","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查「保險法」15案：\n一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案。【後3案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第一百二十三條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:29:04+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:42:11+08:00","duration":787,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.16596875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.09409375,"end":3.3890937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.99659375,"end":5.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.265968750000003,"end":8.603468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.974718750000001,"end":31.148468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.941593750000003,"end":34.979093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.282843750000005,"end":48.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.681593750000005,"end":51.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.516593750000006,"end":58.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.87846875,"end":58.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.604093750000004,"end":68.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.76284375,"end":71.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.05784375,"end":71.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.27721875,"end":77.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.90534375,"end":75.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.55471875,"end":88.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.47284375000001,"end":101.29784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.29784375000001,"end":111.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.81971875,"end":109.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.50721875,"end":122.39159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.03784375000001,"end":122.22284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.76284375,"end":131.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.04846875,"end":136.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.71034375000002,"end":142.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.96221875,"end":149.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.04971875,"end":166.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.36784375000002,"end":203.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.96534375000002,"end":215.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.92971875,"end":217.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.29659375000003,"end":217.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.12346875,"end":219.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.64221875,"end":220.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.67159375000003,"end":235.43721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.36971875,"end":235.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.43721875000003,"end":235.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.57221875000002,"end":237.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.05721875,"end":237.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.10784375000003,"end":244.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.25471875000002,"end":242.62596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.68471875,"end":245.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.10659375,"end":253.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.27409375000002,"end":257.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.52659375,"end":257.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.81346875,"end":257.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.84721875,"end":259.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.14659375,"end":259.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.18034375,"end":259.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.19721875,"end":287.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.26471875000004,"end":259.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.96471875000003,"end":262.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.83784375,"end":264.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.61409375,"end":264.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.36034375,"end":268.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.04721875,"end":275.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.74721875,"end":277.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.30346875000004,"end":281.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.02409375,"end":287.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.68221875,"end":287.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.96909375,"end":290.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.31471875,"end":297.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.58784375000005,"end":310.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.24096875000004,"end":303.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.51096875,"end":303.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.05846875000003,"end":323.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.69346875,"end":338.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.65034375000005,"end":329.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.68409375000005,"end":330.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.11846875000003,"end":333.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.61596875000004,"end":334.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.47596875000005,"end":346.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.71596875,"end":342.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.78284375000004,"end":350.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.85409375,"end":349.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.15346875,"end":351.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.94221875,"end":356.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.03846875000005,"end":367.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.11284375,"end":368.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.00721875000005,"end":397.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.77659375,"end":385.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.97846875000005,"end":391.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.35284375000003,"end":397.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.58909375,"end":400.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.74096875000004,"end":399.61409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.03596875000005,"end":400.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.22159375,"end":401.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.16221875,"end":403.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.37721875000005,"end":404.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.64284375000005,"end":405.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.69721875000005,"end":412.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.96221875000003,"end":416.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.35846875000004,"end":434.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.03659375,"end":423.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.10409375,"end":423.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.53784375000004,"end":428.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.12784375,"end":433.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.20346875,"end":435.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.82346875,"end":437.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.32534375,"end":438.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.05096875000004,"end":441.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.10159375,"end":439.40534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.58221875000004,"end":452.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.41721875,"end":446.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.60659375,"end":448.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.05784375,"end":449.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.44159375000004,"end":455.72346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.93471875,"end":454.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.77409375,"end":455.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.95971875000004,"end":465.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.30846875000003,"end":471.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.74221875,"end":471.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.29909375000005,"end":480.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.79971875,"end":480.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.81659375000004,"end":482.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.90096875,"end":481.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.50409375000004,"end":483.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.01034375,"end":485.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.98034375000003,"end":497.42159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.42159375000006,"end":508.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.43846875,"end":497.45534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.89784375000005,"end":502.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.62284375,"end":510.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.97221875,"end":512.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.0478437500001,"end":517.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.5703437500001,"end":523.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.94909375,"end":524.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.2022187499999,"end":525.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.8390937500001,"end":527.9822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":527.9822187500001,"end":527.9990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.9990937499999,"end":530.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.96909375,"end":530.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.98596875,"end":531.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":531.0534687500001,"end":531.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.15471875,"end":531.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":531.3572187500001,"end":531.3740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.3740937499999,"end":536.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.66909375,"end":534.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.18346875,"end":539.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.48721875,"end":536.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.7609687500001,"end":551.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":544.75596875,"end":545.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.42159375,"end":551.8603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.8603437500001,"end":551.8772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.8940937500001,"end":554.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.76284375,"end":555.0834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.0834687500001,"end":558.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.3740937499999,"end":558.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.67346875,"end":565.6809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":566.30534375,"end":571.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.38471875,"end":572.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.9878437500001,"end":573.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.31659375,"end":586.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.96034375,"end":588.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":588.34409375,"end":588.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.36096875,"end":588.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":588.37784375,"end":588.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":588.96846875,"end":590.6897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.4240937500001,"end":590.2509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.6897187500001,"end":594.1828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.3347187500001,"end":597.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.9965937500001,"end":598.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.50284375,"end":610.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":609.5559687500001,"end":613.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.17159375,"end":616.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.81221875,"end":621.1828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":621.3178437500001,"end":628.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.35096875,"end":626.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.8528437500001,"end":629.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":629.7890937500001,"end":630.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.0759687500001,"end":640.6397187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.6397187499999,"end":640.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.82534375,"end":648.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":647.3728437500001,"end":648.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":648.43596875,"end":648.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.84096875,"end":648.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":648.87471875,"end":648.9084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.9084687500001,"end":648.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":648.97596875,"end":649.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.12784375,"end":653.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.6672187500001,"end":657.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.4978437500001,"end":661.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.4128437500001,"end":662.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":662.64471875,"end":662.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.9653437500001,"end":665.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":665.96909375,"end":667.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":668.23034375,"end":671.5209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.65596875,"end":671.9597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":671.9597187500001,"end":673.6809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.0859687500001,"end":675.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.87471875,"end":681.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.8147187500001,"end":702.7565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":699.5503437500001,"end":699.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":702.7565937500001,"end":703.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.14471875,"end":712.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":712.12221875,"end":714.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":714.24846875,"end":722.9053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":723.12471875,"end":724.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.23846875,"end":724.2553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.35659375,"end":724.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":724.9640937500001,"end":726.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":726.0947187500001,"end":728.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":728.96346875,"end":739.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":732.0515937499999,"end":733.1147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":739.7297187500001,"end":739.8647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":739.8647187500001,"end":740.7590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":740.7590937500001,"end":740.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.11346875,"end":746.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":746.59784375,"end":751.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.03159375,"end":755.6765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":753.0947187500001,"end":753.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":755.8115937500002,"end":759.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":759.62534375,"end":764.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":760.94159375,"end":760.9584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":760.9584687500001,"end":761.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":764.85659375,"end":765.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":765.5147187500002,"end":769.4128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":769.5478437500001,"end":772.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":772.02846875,"end":775.4709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":775.7240937500001,"end":777.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":777.1584687500001,"end":778.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":778.74471875,"end":782.5078437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.47,"end":4.84,"text":"謝謝主席那我們請這個金管會的彭主委是 請主委"},{"start":9.712,"end":29.26,"text":"那今天討論這個保險法的修法然後大家這個焦點大概就放在說這一個所謂的保單的豁免的額度大概是多少另外就是說這個不得作為抵押扣押或是強制執行的這個標的那我先說一下就是說我自己也有提案那關於說這一個"},{"start":31.994,"end":50.934,"text":"保單的豁免額度啦那你們是提到說衛生福利部啊、直轄市政府啊公告當地區每人最低每月最低的生活費的這個1.2倍的三個月計算啦那其實之前大家都討論過這樣就變成說每個地方會不一樣所以本期才會提案說那是不是就是用"},{"start":51.554,"end":77.752,"text":"台北市因為台北市是最高嘛台北市的最低的生活費7.3萬來做一個標準那不曉得這個主委看法怎麼樣謝謝委員我想說我們行政版本提出來以後經過大院公聽會還有收集各方的意見確實我們從減政變民降低社會成本的角度來看又能只要能夠達成我們的立法的目的我們對剛剛那個提案我們是覺得是個不錯的想法啦我們可以可以朝這個方向來思考這樣好啊"},{"start":78.092,"end":101.16,"text":"那我是希望說,就是說我們用一個單一的標準,朝這個原則來進行,好不好那當然我看司法院,他們也有提出他們的看法啦就是說他們認為說,如果說現在是用每人每月最低生活費1.2倍計算的三個月,恐難以充分保障受益人的基本生活那請問一下主委的看法"},{"start":102.1,"end":119.544,"text":"這個主要是當時我們會有這樣的想法我們是基於就是說我們要橫憑考量債權債務人的這樣的權益再來就是說我們對這個計算的方式我們是參考司法院的這樣的標準否則我們不會用這麼長的文字去描述這個事情司法院他認為說1.2倍的三個月他認為不夠"},{"start":122.805,"end":145.882,"text":"那我們剛才在那個報告我們經過這一輪公聽溝通的過程當中我們也認為說我們對這個是持開放的態度所以也不是侷限在就是說是1.2倍的三個月嗎所以是可以調整的嗎對對對就是說大家只要委員會大家有共識我們都尊重那另外就是說這個本席也有提到就是說"},{"start":147.583,"end":165.691,"text":"我想對於這個健康險跟傷害險大概都沒有意見我有加入這個小兒中老的保險把它加進去我發現說這個司法院其實他們也有提出的意見其實跟我們的看法是差不多的就是說"},{"start":168.553,"end":191.633,"text":"考量小兒中島保險是因應我國人口高齡化的趨勢為普及高齡者申僱或失能之基本保險保障而推動的保險商品所以他認為應該把它拿進去然後我再舉司法院的民事庭他們的意見他說去年司法院在執行受險執行原則的時候有找金款一起討論"},{"start":192.293,"end":218.56,"text":"那時候呢是有把這個小兒中老保險呢把它納進去的喔那所以呢去年的7月1號呢他們這個執行原則是有把這個小兒中老保險把它執行進去那如果說你現在這個草案呢又沒有把它執行進去的話那對於他們來講會變成這個一些爭議就是說那現在在求人就是說那現在有這個沒有滿足他們的需求他再度外居申請啊又有這個爭議然後呢法務部有認為說這個"},{"start":220.9,"end":236.865,"text":"執行的原則呢規定小額中老保險的豁免執行然後呢他們也按照這個原則去做所以呢如果沒有把這個小額中老保險把它納進去的話呢他也會面臨到跟司法院相同的這個問題啦所以我請教一下這一個主委的看法"},{"start":237.845,"end":252.312,"text":"謝謝委員的關心其實這個議題剛剛從早上到現在非常多委員有蠻一致的關切其實我們提這個版本出來的時候我們主要是希望回歸到一個保險法裡面的精神因為我們保險法"},{"start":253.433,"end":262.659,"text":"人身保險商品就四大類的分類其實沒有一個叫做小額中老保險他就是一個終身受險啊對對對就是說他就是一個其實他就會被那個名稱啊後來我們也講說現在如果說大家社會有共識的話我覺得"},{"start":269.284,"end":297.345,"text":"列上去我們是持一個開放單但不要用這個小額綜合保險的名稱那可以啊就是說我們不一定要用這個名稱嘛就是說它是類似這種終身受險的名字就計算一下好不好不是那個名稱要回到保險法上條文週延正確的名稱那也可以啊那因為就是說提到說我剛提到說因為去年其實你們有把這一個這個小額綜合保險我現在先用這個名詞把它納進去然後在今年草原就沒有那考量是什麼"},{"start":297.645,"end":323.147,"text":"沒有 其實應該主要是說你看我們那個原則其實某種程度的話就已經包含它了它本身也是一個人壽保險的一部分只要是它的解約金沒有達到大部分我們也看小兒中小兒保險大部分假設你是一個比較是如果你不是高齡投保的話其實這樣假設額度把它拉到一定程度你某種程度也是含瓜我們只是說不要針對一個特殊的險種做這樣額外的規定但是假設大家覺得小兒中小兒保險有它政策上的推動"},{"start":323.767,"end":349.787,"text":"我們也是可以來討論但是不要用我再強調不要用一個我知道就是不要用這個詞啦回到他的精神因為其實我們還有很多跟他非常非常相同的這些的這個人壽保險契約一樣有這個社會保障功能有沒有這樣就能夠被涵蓋到我覺得這樣也是一個比較周延的想法不錯我看金管會這個態度算都是還蠻開放的我們是要解決問題不是要"},{"start":352.009,"end":380.378,"text":"因為我們覺得還是要考量大多數的人的權益還要橫平一下債權債務人的關係好 那再請教一下主委這個報紙最近這兩天有提到說這個備想科技它是說它是全國唯一金管會授權的這是它自己的廣告後來我發現它其實沒有講金管會我有上它網站去看它是講監理會全台唯一授權它也不敢講金管會它是講監理會全台唯一授權那請教一下"},{"start":381.218,"end":402.92,"text":"其實這個必享科技當初也有提出這個洗錢防治法的聲明最低度的聲明那你們現在不是又要求說這裡有21家本來有提出聲明的這些要去做洗錢防治的登記嗎這21家都有去登記嗎有些沒有"},{"start":407.885,"end":434,"text":"剛剛同學講有兩家沒有來登記有兩家21家有去做這個洗錢防治法的說明我覺得應該是第一階段有26家後來有幾家沒有就剩23家23家在這一波我們的最後期限3月31號以前沒有來做登記的那這個又扣掉兩家所以21家還有其他不是洗房生民來申請登記的那加起來應該有31家加起來有幾家"},{"start":439.383,"end":464.742,"text":"總共現在還有31家本來是21家有做這個保證說明的23 21有來繼續做登記然後10家是另外之前沒有來做這個保證說明的但是他們新加進去的但是並不代表他們都會通過因為我看你們這個登記的辦法你們是說9月底之前還要再完成洗錢的房子登記"},{"start":465.682,"end":482.482,"text":"因為我們是給這些比如說已經做完洗房聲明一個六個月的緩沖期就說如果你今天到比如說跟我們報告分兩種剛才後面加入十個他現在也不能做業務他等到我們同意他以後他才可以做業務因為他是以前沒有洗房聲明的"},{"start":483.123,"end":512.238,"text":"那啟發聲明他現在就在進行他的業務但是呢他如果還要想繼續做下去的話他必須要在3月30要提出而且在9月取得我們的登記許可才可以繼續如果沒有取得就直接出局所以現在是我這樣聽是21家還是可以提供服務那另外那10家還要你們在還要在另外在這個在考核他是新來的要取得許可登記許可以後才可以執行業務好然後在9月底"},{"start":513.098,"end":539.198,"text":"你們會在最後做審查,9月底有通過才能做這個虛擬資產服務就對了對,就是剛才新來的要通過才能做那些已經有的呢,要再取得這個東西才可以繼續做否則你只能做到9月人家幣翔也有去登記啊,我看那個名單上面也有啊他來登記並不代表會同意啊對啊,我是說登記是你的權利啊核准是金管會的職責啊那你們也是看到媒體之後才知道這件事情嗎"},{"start":540.018,"end":555.853,"text":"我們過去大概針對這幾家我們已經查過十家我們對很多疑慮我們大概都有去做一些查核當然這個當然是媒體揭露以後他主要開了一些分店那主要都是進行現金交易嘛這個部分未來我們也會針對這個虛擬資產的部分我們會"},{"start":559.716,"end":586.121,"text":"改成無現金交易的方式來處理可以大幅降低這樣的問題你說改成怎樣無現金交易那你們說你們之前有有石家左右你們有疑慮去查有沒有包過幣匣這個我們請檢察局來 請跟委員報告在112年跟113年完成的石家那那個114年的部分是在這個禮拜一有到幣匣那邊去做現場的去了解這樣子"},{"start":587.134,"end":601.957,"text":"那是媒體介入之後啊檢調都去查之後啊是 那在這個之前部分我們也是有跟檢警調單位部分有做一些的情資的交流所以我是說是在案發之前還是之後"},{"start":602.378,"end":618.111,"text":"是我們在案發之後在這個因為上個禮拜就有那個進行搜查嘛那所以我們禮拜一就派員到現場那所以你們也是案發之後才知道這件事情就對了是是是但是在之前的部分我們有做一些資訊的一些的交流好最後請教齁這個主委虛擬資產"},{"start":620.533,"end":646.273,"text":"服務法 你們現在是在三月的時候有公布預告這個草案大概何時會送來立法院我們現在是這樣 我們大概預告兩個月然後在中間大概開二十二還二十三場的說明跟溝通會我們回來以後會來整理我們的預計的時程是六月三十號以前送進行政院那行政院就會由政委來跨部會來審查那期間多久就不是我們金管會所能夠管控"},{"start":646.713,"end":673.502,"text":"那至少6月底要送到行政院就對了行政院要先做跨部會的審查完畢就會送到大院來審查那看起來應該下半年度有這個機會我覺得我們6月30號出去就看我們行政院審查的進度跟各界的共識的程度好 那我請教一下因為大家說這個其中有一個最大的亮點是允許銀行發行穩定幣那這個穩定幣是什麼"},{"start":674.242,"end":702.5,"text":"穩定幣的話就是我們想說我們大家過去對那個虛擬資產特別是比如說我們這個虛擬貨幣大家都覺得它的波動很大因為它的價值大家有不同的看法穩定幣就是我們可以想像成1比1的代幣就是比如說是以新台幣作為我們現在初步是以貨幣作為這個當然我們現在的講法當然是先以我們的法幣當然我們在草原裡面沒有排除哪一種貨幣因為現在世界上共通最多的穩定幣應該是美元"},{"start":703.28,"end":722.259,"text":"但是我們也可以透過各種的幣別當然我們現在的規劃只是先做貨幣就法定貨幣作為所以有可能是新台幣但也有可能美元對 就看我們市場上面但是這個東西只要在國內發它就有保管資產會保管在國內這部分其實上就是1比1這樣的概念"},{"start":723.32,"end":740.475,"text":"一比一的概念那這個跟那個中央銀行還有這個數位貨幣那個咧它那個CDBC它有兩個那是不一樣的東西是不一樣的東西那個四大類裡面的其中一類這樣他們是另外的那兩類那發行那個穩定幣的作用在於哪裡"},{"start":741.235,"end":762.767,"text":"穩定幣啊 比如說我們想說我們剛才講一般民眾如果是你要投入這個穩定幣投入虛擬資產之前你不是會從我們的法幣帳戶換成一個穩定幣以後穩定幣才能夠跟其他的虛擬資產進行交換那等於說它是一個橋接的一個工具啊就像我們現在去購買虛擬資產我們先換成泰達幣"},{"start":765.729,"end":781.584,"text":"穩定幣美元的穩定幣以後才去開始去購買其他的產品所以說這個就是有確定要做就對了這個在我們草案裡面就看社會公司如果通過的話就會做OK好謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝坤臣接著請黃珊珊委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":655,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時29分）謝謝主席，請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主委好。今天討論保險法的修法，大家的焦點大概是放在保單豁免的額度大概是多少，另外就是不得作為扣押或是強制執行的標的。我先說一下，我自己也有提案，關於保單的豁免額度你們是提到以衛生福利部、直轄市政府公告當地區每人每月最低生活費1.2倍的3個月計算，其實之前大家都討論過，這樣就變成每個地方會不一樣，所以本席才會提案，因為臺北市是最高的，是不是就用臺北市的最低生活費（7.3萬）來作為一個標準，不曉得主委的看法怎麼樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，我想我們行政院版本提出來以後，經過大院公聽會，還有蒐集各方的意見，確實從簡政便民、降低社會成本的角度來看，只要能夠達成我們立法的目的，對剛才那個提案我們覺得是個不錯的想法，可以朝這個方向來思考。"],["李委員坤城：好啊！我是希望我們用一個單一的標準，朝這個原則來進行，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["李委員坤城：我看到司法院也有提出他們的看法，他們認為，現在用每人每月最低生活費1.2倍的3個月計算，恐難以充分保障受益人的基本生活，請問一下主委的看法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當時我們會有這樣的想法是基於我們要衡平考量債權、債務人的權益，再來就是這個計算的方式我們是參考司法院的標準，否則我們不會用這麼長的文字去描述……"],["李委員坤城：但司法院認為1.2倍的3個月不夠。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們剛才在報告中提到，經過這一輪公聽溝通的過程當中，我們也認為我們對這個是持開放的態度……"],["李委員坤城：所以也不是侷限在1.2倍的3個月？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，我們是持開放態度。"],["李委員坤城：這也是可以調整的嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，只要委員會大家有共識，我們都尊重。"],["李委員坤城：好。另外本席也有提到，對於健康險跟傷害險大家大概都沒有意見，但我有加入小額終老的保險。我發現司法院提出的意見其實跟我們的看法是差不多的，司法院的意見是，考量小額終老保險是因應我國人口高齡化趨勢，為普及高齡者身故或失能之基本保險保障而推動的保險商品，所以它認為應該納進去。我再舉司法院民事廳的意見，它說去年司法院在訂定法院辦理人壽保險契約金錢債權強制執行原則的時候，有找金管委員會一起討論，那時候是有把這個小額終老保險納進去，所以去年7月1號他們這個執行原則是有把這個小額終老保險納進去。如果現在這個草案又沒有把它納進去的話，對於他們來講，會變成有一些爭議，現在債權人就說，這個沒有滿足他們的需求，他再度去申請，會發生這個爭議。法務部也認為，執行原則規定小額終老保險豁免執行，他們也按照這個原則去做，所以如果沒有把小額終老保險納進去的話，它也會面臨到跟司法院相同的問題，所以我請教一下主委的看法。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員的關心，其實對這個議題從早上到現在非常多委員有滿一致的關切，我們提這個版本出來的時候，主要是希望回歸到保險法裡面的精神，因為我們的保險法對人身保險商品就是四大類的分類，其實沒有一個叫做小額終老保險。"],["李委員坤城：它就是一個終身壽險。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，其實它就會被我們涵蓋。"],["李委員坤城：不是那個名稱啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，後來我們也講，如果現在社會有共識的話，對於列上去我們是持開放態度，但不要用這個小額終老保險的名稱。"],["李委員坤城：那可以啊！我們不一定要用這個名稱，但就是類似這種終身壽險的部分你們去計算一下，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，就是那個名稱要回到保險法條文上周延、正確的名稱。"],["李委員坤城：那也可以啊！因為我剛才提到，去年其實你們有把這個小額終老保險納進去，我現在先用這個名詞，在今年的草案就沒有了，那考量是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，應該是說我們的那個原則其實某種程度就已經包含它了，它本身也是人壽保險的一部分，只要它的解約金沒有達到，大部分的小額終老保險如果不是高齡投保的話，假設把額度拉到一定程度，某種程度也是含括在內，我們只是說不要針對一個特殊的險種做這樣額外的規定，但是假設大家覺得小額終老保險有它政策上的推動，我們也是可以來討論，但是我再強調，不要用一個……"],["李委員坤城：好，我知道，就是不要用這個詞啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，回到它的精神，因為其實我們還有很多跟它非常相同的人壽保險契約，一樣有這個社會保障功能，這樣就能夠被涵蓋到，我覺得這樣也是一個比較周延的想法。"],["李委員坤城：不錯！我看金管會的態度都還算滿開放的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我們是要解決問題，因為我們覺得還是要考量大多數人的權益，還要衡平一下債權債務人的關係。"],["李委員坤城：好，再請教一下主委，最近這兩天的報紙有提到「幣想科技」，說它是全國唯一金管會授權的這個……"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是它自己的廣告。"],["李委員坤城：對！後來我發現它其實沒有講金管會，我有上它的網站去看，它是講監理會全臺唯一授權，它也不敢講金管會啦！它是講監理會全臺唯一授權。請教一下，其實幣想科技當初也有提出這個……"],["彭主任委員金隆：洗防聲明。"],["李委員坤城：洗錢防制法的聲明，他們有提出來嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，是最低度的聲明。"],["李委員坤城：你們現在不是又要求這21家本來有提出聲明的，要去做洗錢防制的登記嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：登記制，3月31號，對！"],["李委員坤城：這21家都有去登記嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有些有，有些沒有。"],["李委員坤城：是喔？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛同仁講有兩家沒有來登記。"],["李委員坤城：有兩家，所以是21家有去做洗錢防制法的法遵聲明。"],["彭主任委員金隆：原來我記得的應該是第一階段有26家，後來有幾家沒有，就剩下23家，23家在這一波我們的最後期限是到3月31號以前……"],["李委員坤城：到3月底嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有來做登記的，又扣掉兩家，所以是21家。還有其他不是洗防聲明來申請登記的，加起來應該有31家。"],["李委員坤城：加起來有幾家？本來……"],["彭主任委員金隆：31家，對。"],["李委員坤城：幾家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：總共現在還有31家。"],["李委員坤城：31家。本來是21家，這是有做法遵聲明的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：本來是23家，21家有來繼續做登記。"],["李委員坤城：10家是另外之前沒有來做法遵聲明的，但是他們新加進去的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是並不代表他們都會通過。"],["李委員坤城：那當然，因為我看你們登記的辦法，你們是9月底之前還要再完成洗錢防制的登記？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為我們是給這些已經做完洗防聲明的，有6個月的緩衝期。跟委員報告，這分兩種，剛才後面加入的10個，它現在也不能做業務，它要等到我們同意以後，才可以做業務，因為它是以前沒有洗防聲明的。有洗防聲明的現在就在進行它的業務，但是它如果還要想繼續做下去的話，它必須要在3月31號提出，而且在9月取得我們的登記許可才可以繼續，如果沒有取得，就直接出局。"],["李委員坤城：我現在聽是21家還是可以提供服務，另外那10家還要你們另外再考核？"],["彭主任委員金隆：21家是繼續到9月為止，另外10家是新來的，要取得登記許可以後，才可以執行業務。"],["李委員坤城：好，在9月底你們會在最後做審查，9月底有通過的，才能做虛擬資產服務就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，剛才提到新來的要通過才能做，那些已經有的要再取得這個東西，才可以繼續做，否則你只能做到9月。"],["李委員坤城：現在幣想也有去登記啊！我看那份名單上面也有啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：它有來登記，並不代表會同意啊！對啊！登記是你的權利，核准是金管會的職責。"],["李委員坤城：你們也是看到媒體之後才知道這件事情嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：過去大概針對這幾家，我們已經查過10家，對很多有疑慮的，我們大概都有去做一些查核，這個當然是媒體揭露以後，它主要是開了一些分店，都是進行現金交易，未來我們也會針對虛擬資產的部分，我們會改成無現金交易的方式來處理，可以大幅降低這樣的問題。"],["李委員坤城：你說改成怎樣？"],["彭主任委員金隆：無現金交易。"],["李委員坤城：之前有10家左右，你們認為有疑慮去查的，有沒有包括幣想？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們請檢查局回答。"],["賴局長欣國：跟委員報告，在112年跟113年完成的10家，114年的部分是在這個禮拜一有到幣想做現場的瞭解。"],["李委員坤城：沒有，那是在媒體揭露之後啊！檢調都去查之後啊！"],["賴局長欣國：是、是！在這個之前的部分，我們也是有跟檢警調單位有做一些情資交流。"],["李委員坤城：所以我是問這是在案發之前，還是之後？"],["賴局長欣國：是，我們在案發之後，因為上個禮拜就有進行搜查，所以我們禮拜一就派員到現場去瞭解……"],["李委員坤城：所以你們也是在案發之後，才知道這件事情就對了？"],["賴局長欣國：是、是！但是在之前的部分，我們有做一些資訊的交流。"],["李委員坤城：最後請教主委虛擬資產服務法，你們在3月的時候有預告這個草案，大概何時會送來立法院？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在是這樣，我們大概預告兩個月，中間大概會開22還是23場的說明跟溝通會，我們回來以後會整理，預計的時程是6月30號以前送進行政院，行政院就會由政委進行跨部會的審查，期間多久就不是金管會所能夠管控的，行政院審查完畢就……"],["李委員坤城：至少6月底要送到行政院就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對！行政院要先做跨部會的審查完畢，就會送到大院來審查。"],["李委員坤城：看起來應該在下半年度有這個機會？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得我們6月30號出去，就看行政院審查的進度跟各界共識的程度。"],["李委員坤城：好，那我請教一下，因為大家說其中有一個最大的亮點是允許銀行發行穩定幣，穩定幣是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：穩定幣的話，就是大家過去對於虛擬資產，比如說大家都覺得虛擬貨幣的波動很大，因為它的價值大家會有不同的看法，穩定幣就是我們可以想像成1比1的代幣，就是比如說……"],["李委員坤城：是以新臺幣作為……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在初步是以貨幣作為基準，我們現在的講法當然是先以法幣，但在我們的草案裡面沒有排除哪一種貨幣，現在世界上共通最多的穩定幣應該是美元，但是我們也可以透過各種的幣別，當然我們現在的規劃只是先做貨幣，即法定貨幣，那也有人說可不可以……"],["李委員坤城：所以有可能是新臺幣，但也有可能是美元？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，就看我們市場上面……但是這個東西只要在國內發，它就有保管資產，會保管在國內，這部分實際上就是1比1這樣的概念。"],["李委員坤城：1比1的概念？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["李委員坤城：這個跟中央銀行的數位貨幣咧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：它和CBDC是兩個類別，那是不一樣的東西。"],["李委員坤城：是不一樣的東西？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對，那是在四大類裡面的其中一類，他們是另外的兩類。"],["李委員坤城：發行穩定幣的作用在於哪裡？"],["彭主任委員金隆：比如說，我們剛才講如果是一般民眾要投入虛擬資產之前，不是會從我們的法幣帳戶換成穩定幣以後，穩定幣才能夠跟其他的虛擬資產進行交換，等於它是一個橋接的工具，就像我們現在去購買虛擬資產，我們要先換成泰達幣，即美元的穩定幣以後，才開始去購買其他的產品。"],["李委員坤城：好，所以這個就是有確定要做就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：在我們草案裡面就要看社會共識，如果通過的話，就會做。"],["李委員坤城：OK，好。謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：接著請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","黃珊珊","羅智強","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","黃國昌","陳玉珍","王世堅","林思銘","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","徐富癸","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「保險法」15案：一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員\n王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人\n分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案；二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第\n一百二十三條之一條文草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等\n19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百\n七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案","agenda_id":"1144301_00006"}}},{"id":"160795","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160795","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369a698fe5b10a14bb18b6df88a6e7dffcad78ea87b1712f8823d33e1e9d2057dc95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"11:23:11 - 11:38:22","影片長度":"00:15:11","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場(廠)墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:23:11+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:38:22+08:00","duration":911,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.85784375,"end":3.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.56596875,"end":6.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.46846875,"end":15.404093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.89346875,"end":21.090968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.37784375,"end":21.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.79971875,"end":21.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.90096875,"end":21.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.91784375,"end":21.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.879718750000002,"end":24.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.10721875,"end":26.136593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.79034375,"end":28.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.95471875,"end":33.392843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.47284375,"end":35.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.97471875,"end":36.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.95346875,"end":37.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.20221875,"end":38.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.21909375,"end":38.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.30346875,"end":38.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.40471875,"end":38.556593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.64096875,"end":38.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.69159375,"end":38.978468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.978468750000005,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.02909375,"end":39.518468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.22284375,"end":41.627843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.134093750000005,"end":65.70846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.48471875,"end":67.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.07034375,"end":91.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.61159375000001,"end":94.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.20159375,"end":96.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.07471875,"end":99.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.69471875,"end":108.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.03096875,"end":109.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.00534375000001,"end":113.12721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.85284375,"end":119.72534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.26534375000001,"end":126.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.62721875000001,"end":133.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.31784375,"end":137.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.64659375000002,"end":139.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.31284375,"end":147.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.36221875,"end":155.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.22596875000002,"end":157.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.81221875,"end":158.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.45721875,"end":163.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.60034375,"end":164.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.46471875,"end":169.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.97909375,"end":170.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.31221875,"end":172.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.85596875000002,"end":177.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.12971875000002,"end":179.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.20534375,"end":180.22221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.22221875000002,"end":180.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.23909375000002,"end":181.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.79159375,"end":196.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.21971875,"end":197.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.28721875000002,"end":224.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.61909375000002,"end":206.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.16034375,"end":239.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.62221875,"end":240.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.29284375,"end":243.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.89159375000003,"end":245.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.47784375,"end":249.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.42659375000002,"end":250.21971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.74284375000002,"end":251.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.59909375,"end":254.80971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.34971875000002,"end":257.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.83034375,"end":258.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.58971875000003,"end":263.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.82096875,"end":266.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.04409375,"end":268.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.91284375000004,"end":271.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.11909375,"end":278.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.92409375,"end":281.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.84346875,"end":283.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.68284375,"end":286.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.88909375000003,"end":288.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.79596875000004,"end":297.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.84096875,"end":298.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.00971875000005,"end":299.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.18659375000004,"end":313.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.20971875000004,"end":317.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.69846875,"end":319.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.84159375,"end":321.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.39409375,"end":323.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.57096875,"end":325.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.11471875,"end":343.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.44596875,"end":341.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.97721875,"end":359.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.44721875000005,"end":371.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.19221875000005,"end":387.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.66221875,"end":389.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.53534375000004,"end":392.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.04971875,"end":395.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.45846875,"end":401.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.61034375,"end":397.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.44534375,"end":399.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.94284375,"end":402.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.06096875000003,"end":403.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.35159375,"end":406.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.65096875,"end":407.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.51159375000003,"end":407.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.70971875000004,"end":409.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.89096875,"end":410.19471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.49846875000003,"end":412.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.94534375,"end":415.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.69159375000004,"end":417.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.82221875000005,"end":420.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.84284375000004,"end":424.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.42034375000003,"end":427.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.66034375000004,"end":429.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.61784375,"end":430.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":430.74846875000003,"end":432.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.27971875000003,"end":446.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.34096875,"end":447.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.85971875,"end":479.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.21346875,"end":530.5303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":531.3572187500001,"end":532.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.0278437500001,"end":534.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":535.49159375,"end":536.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.8078437500001,"end":538.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.71034375,"end":542.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.4734687499999,"end":544.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":545.1609687499999,"end":547.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.70909375,"end":549.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.3584687499999,"end":551.2865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.82659375,"end":553.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.6997187500001,"end":556.6697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":556.6697187500001,"end":574.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.3190937500001,"end":559.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.6584687500001,"end":579.2990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":578.4553437500001,"end":583.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.57284375,"end":588.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.64784375,"end":609.8428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":609.8428437499999,"end":622.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":623.83221875,"end":624.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.9797187500001,"end":627.9834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":628.2703437499999,"end":632.2022187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.0290937500001,"end":635.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":635.6953437500001,"end":636.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":637.5009687500001,"end":639.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.8928437500001,"end":641.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.1415937500001,"end":642.8334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":643.49159375,"end":648.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":648.0647187500001,"end":650.3259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":650.7647187499999,"end":651.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.9878437500001,"end":656.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":656.58659375,"end":661.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":661.78409375,"end":663.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.04534375,"end":665.6653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":667.79159375,"end":668.7703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":669.1753437500001,"end":671.0147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":671.3859687500001,"end":672.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":673.84971875,"end":675.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.13221875,"end":675.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.22471875,"end":687.1472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":685.37534375,"end":686.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.36659375,"end":692.6484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":692.6484687500001,"end":694.9265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.74971875,"end":692.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":694.9265937499999,"end":695.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":695.11221875,"end":697.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":698.04846875,"end":701.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":701.42346875,"end":704.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":704.93346875,"end":704.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":706.0303437500002,"end":706.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.08096875,"end":706.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.31284375,"end":727.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":708.6797187500001,"end":708.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":729.58784375,"end":734.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":736.32096875,"end":741.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":739.6284687500001,"end":740.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":740.79284375,"end":740.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":741.34971875,"end":784.2122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":741.36659375,"end":741.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":784.2122187500001,"end":784.3640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":784.3640937499999,"end":784.4484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":784.4484687500001,"end":789.1059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":789.5278437500001,"end":796.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":797.2565937500001,"end":798.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":798.6740937500001,"end":801.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":801.2222187500001,"end":805.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":805.6940937500001,"end":807.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":808.00596875,"end":808.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":809.45721875,"end":810.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":810.72284375,"end":823.3959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":824.47596875,"end":826.6865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":827.68221875,"end":828.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":830.0109687500001,"end":831.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":832.1203437500001,"end":833.6728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":833.92596875,"end":834.8203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":836.55846875,"end":838.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":838.7353437500001,"end":840.4228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":840.7265937500001,"end":842.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":843.32534375,"end":844.2197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":845.14784375,"end":846.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":847.3584687500002,"end":848.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":848.77596875,"end":850.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":852.43784375,"end":853.1128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":853.5347187500001,"end":877.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":877.78409375,"end":879.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":879.91034375,"end":880.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":880.41659375,"end":882.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":882.81284375,"end":884.1628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":884.4834687500002,"end":885.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":885.8672187500001,"end":887.4365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":887.7065937500001,"end":889.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":891.5034687500001,"end":892.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":893.41034375,"end":897.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":897.29159375,"end":905.0034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":905.64471875,"end":907.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":906.62346875,"end":907.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":907.73721875,"end":910.97721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.885,"end":25.574,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請部長有請洪部長部長好 部長辛苦了明天就是五一勞動節也是部長就任以來第一個勞動節那部長還記得接下來部長一職的時候那卓院長有給你三個主要的任務 部長還記得吧記得就這三個嘛 我就不再贅述了那請問有達標嗎"},{"start":29.489,"end":38.883,"text":"這幾個月我們很努力希望往這些方向去邁進你沒有回答我,你沒有答標但我知道你很努力,我沒有說你不努力我們盡力做"},{"start":41.257,"end":67.481,"text":"好啦第一點就是紅部長接任的所要任務就在後續處理上我想部長也展現了十足的行動力跟決心嘛穩定這整個勞動部這我必須要肯定啦但第二點勞動部是為了健全友善合理的持長讓所有的勞工在安全的環境中為國家為人民為社會來做做全力的這樣的一個付出嘛那我就要請部長來看這個相關的數據重大旨在什麼人數"},{"start":72.794,"end":94.674,"text":"108就316然後109 313其實每每講到這個數據其實坦白講是很沉痛那10278這個是疫情的時候然後11就開始在往上提升但是那113又降下來287那114年截至目前為止4月是70個人你們有講說應該會比往前年度更少有把握嗎"},{"start":98.137,"end":112.306,"text":"比前一年會更少有把握嗎因為當然今年到現在到4月坦白說我們不用把握這兩個字我覺得我們會盡我們所能努力做但是都不讓你看喔我想這一個每一個死亡人數都代表一個"},{"start":113.868,"end":133.241,"text":"一個讓人家非常傷心難過的一個家庭然後南東木市去年把把這個營造營造業墜落打幾年那目標是比往前一年要減少30%的這個墜落之災然後結果到去年9月光營造業就墜落66人也是這個"},{"start":142.502,"end":158.515,"text":"全年度更高達148人整個打擊計畫是提早破功的那當時何前部長還講說要達到這個目標確實有困難你們自己訂目標你們自己訂了叫做營造業最弱打擊年結果跟我講說困難對外講說困難我為什麼要提醒這個事情你們還有另外一個目標2030年植栽要減半對不對"},{"start":171.605,"end":195.248,"text":"會不會現在提早破功會不會就像何前部長講的現在要提早跟我講說困難我們這些目標其實坦白說都是當初定定是要我覺得包括是定一個我覺得希望能夠更符合而且更進步的目標那2030的這個目標我想我們現在是我還是會說我們必須全力以赴"},{"start":196.329,"end":224.566,"text":"我知道剛剛你也答詢說當然目標除此之外還要好的方法嘛對不對那這個方法非常重要但是你們的方法不能只有剩下只有修治安法嘛是因為剛剛很多委員的垂詢嘛很多的面向但是我坦白講我看部長跟署長還有甚至於那個國土署的副總統在答詢的時候好像公共工程比較可以去去test到那其他四部門的幾乎根本就是無從著力嘛"},{"start":225.27,"end":243.104,"text":"那等於你把這個目標整體掛在一起這邊完全沒有辦法有任何的有效方法去做處理甚至連方法都沒有的情況之下那你當然不可能去達標啊你不可能去達標怎麼會設定2030年要減半這個就很矛盾嘛 很衝突嘛"},{"start":243.991,"end":270.447,"text":"而且我剛剛在廁所遇到署長跟署長講說這個報告是誰寫的你們要公布這個報告署長跟我講說是他寫的然後整體focus還是在營造這個換籌當然有講說整體比例還有個2%等等等數之類但是那個樣態真的非常多我們雲林連飼料廠就可以墜落然後死傷嚴重"},{"start":273.134,"end":294.515,"text":"不只啦 剛剛林委員特別提到這個冷氣的施工人員也不只啊 也廣告業者啊反正怎麼講 那個樣態面向是非常非常多當然你可以講比例啦營造業的比例 建商的比例是最高的 是沒錯"},{"start":295.083,"end":323.433,"text":"但是不能因為這個最高的其他的我們就忽略嘛各位可以看你把這個主要的這個這個類別可以把它降下來當然有效的會去呈現在你想要達到這個目標啦這也是也不為過嘛這是方式之一嘛但是你看喔我們113年可以降到287是什麼原因就你們要知道啊主要是什麼原因回到剛才那個表格"},{"start":324.612,"end":325.605,"text":"結果中到13死亡人數"},{"start":328.134,"end":355.15,"text":"跟委員報告我們不會只有說這個在治安法修法前我們還是有很多這個減災的策略在推動包括加強勞檢或是說這個辦理相關的第一場作業的工作我知道啦 知道這個都有在做啦但是做得到不到位嘛是不是有需要再做快速的調整嘛是不是要擴及的面向擴及的職業肥是不是要再增加嘛 對不對這剛才部長也都有答覆嘛"},{"start":355.35,"end":359.09,"text":"那我先請教醫生為什麼你們可以撿到287?主要原因是什麼?"},{"start":361.246,"end":387.74,"text":"其實還有一部分就勞檢以外其實各部會一起幫忙也是蠻重要的剛剛委員有提到我們不管是交通部、內政部、經濟部這個部分我們都一起來合作怎麼樣去大家所管的事業裡面去將要求這個防稅的一個處理所以這個部分跟委員報我們的面向應該是蠻多面向的那至於說287人的部分應該是營造業有檢疫部分"},{"start":388.92,"end":402.468,"text":"為什麼營造業會減一部分主要的原因剛剛我也知道我們在去年就是營造業的最多打擊年所以我們是動用的是營造業的最多打擊還是中央政策打防你看啦自己有把這個目標降下來不曉得什麼原因降下來我就覺得會"},{"start":419.421,"end":432.734,"text":"這樣你們的方法是很自己都沒有把握的方法然後去形成一個方法然後再請教你為什麼可以降下來又講得不是很精準你們這個方法顯然就不是還有一個好方法"},{"start":433.291,"end":445.176,"text":"跟委員說明我同意委員剛才說就是說這不是只是修法的問題因為土法不足以自行所以我們其實可能也看到這裡面會有很多是法規的落實的程度的問題那"},{"start":448.058,"end":462.81,"text":"這也包括比方說這段時間跟署裡面我們一直在檢討跟討論剛才說停復工的這個做法裡面是不是有更多如果未來要復工的話他必須要擔負起更多比方說他是一個系統性的改善"},{"start":463.49,"end":490.964,"text":"所以這是在做法上面如果被停工的廠商他就要擔負起更高的成本才能夠復工的話他也會更加的小心我們也在這個方面去做檢討所以幾個部分我們都在檢討希望能夠更加的落實這些相關的法規部長你答問我這是剛剛李委員問的另外一個問題當然停工的樣態狀況是不一啦不可能說去取得一個平均值嘛所以剛剛你們沒辦法回答我也能夠理解嘛"},{"start":491.364,"end":510.831,"text":"我現在講的說,你113可以降到287,主要原因是什麼?你這樣打護我,雖然這樣打護我是很沒有把握的打護,也是自己沒有去掌握嘛。去年雖然沒有這個疫情啦,但央行有祭出這史上最狠的打房政策啦。讓房地產的市場又有了改變嘛,可以看一下。"},{"start":513.692,"end":537.399,"text":"然後今年狀況也沒有改變手機在全國的新屋推有327萬件是歷史的新低啦其實今年4月齁 職災死亡人數是70人責任署目前是有樂觀推估啦今年職災死亡人數有機會再減少這是你們的資料喔但是我現在最擔心的一個狀況等到黃石祐回溫 加班趕工的亂象會不會再全部出現就跟剛才111年的時候"},{"start":540.161,"end":549.388,"text":"又到最高的這樣的一個是不是最高我也不曉得所以當建商業者只顧著把落後的進度再補回來會不會又牢計法、治安法又放在一邊"},{"start":550.39,"end":573.857,"text":"那職災人數就再往上回升這確實是我們要非常小心的一個因素所以部長這個絕對要去考量到我們勞工部部長指揮今年的職災人數應該會再下降那如果真的是明年的市場上的回溫你要如何防禦相關的業者把勞工的命當成耗材再使用"},{"start":574.697,"end":591.849,"text":"跟我們說明我們當然不會把勞工的命當耗材但是我們確實有三餐我們是說你老實說相關的一些業者嘛因為他要刮工嘛 手工對 沒錯我們確實看到當業者越趕工的狀況的時候其實他的相關的這個安全衛生其實做的就會這個"},{"start":593.51,"end":620.789,"text":"可能常常就會出漏所以跟趕工跟工程這個工地的趕工的這個狀態其實是有一些相關的這也是我們要非常非常小心我們也在跟治安署其實在討論這部分必須面對跟如果有這個狀況的話我們就要更強力的方式下場去介入好我最後一個問題當然不是只有歇華還有是要做勞動檢查嘛是對不對那可以看一下3月27 治安省你們自己換了新聞治安署北中南同步勞檢全台開滑1223萬"},{"start":623.868,"end":651.146,"text":"然後在這次的327大老前 差了82個工地總計違反256項 列定停工28處董事長今天我就不再贅述了看起來好像划得很重 你再看力竊的這個划款這是113年 329 1040 你還沒有破前年再來就變成936 再來就變成985 再來就往下降了這是什麼數字"},{"start":654.022,"end":674.97,"text":"就是說如果今天治安署的全國勞檢有效你要去怎麼解釋去年11月的774萬今年怎麼結果反而反彈到又回到去年同期的1000多萬那你治安署跟六都的勞政機關去勞檢請教一下那一般縣市勒是完全不干他們的事情"},{"start":677.487,"end":704.769,"text":"跟委員報告那個整個罰款的金額他是因為那一次的整個全國的檢查的工地工地數你們哪一次不是全國的檢查是由首長帶隊跟當地的主管機關一起有首長帶隊跟當地的主管機關就會把這個罰款金額查獲的委員勞檢的件數提高只要不是首長不是各縣市的主管就是要偏低"},{"start":706.189,"end":734.623,"text":"這是什麼邏輯跟委員不是這個意思是說剛剛委員現在秀的這個部分是我們有這個帶隊去做的這個同步勞檢那實際上我們去年整個勞檢裁罰金額也達到五億元不是說這個是當天這個是當天我們的首長帶隊的時候那一天統計出來的數字那你回答我到底還不是一樣只要當天是首長帶隊的那一天的比例就是偏高"},{"start":736.38,"end":764.322,"text":"只要不是首長帶隊的就不是這種就不是這種金額嗎你要打我應該是這樣嗎我聽懂委員的意思我是覺得說第一個這些相關的數字並不是說一定要罰到什麼一定要罰到上千萬或者是什麼你這個東西作為標準並不是用這個來作為要求那首長帶隊去勞檢這比較代表的是要表達一個對於這個工地勞安狀況的重視它的意義比較是在這個地方"},{"start":764.662,"end":786.903,"text":"倒不是說一定說我們只要首長帶隊這就一定要罰到上千萬其實倒也不是這個意思可是我覺得表達重視那最重要的事情還是是這個勞動檢查能不能落實到每一天然後把該檢查的部分給檢查出來該罰的部分要罰出來我覺得這部分才是我覺得這是我們要去努力的目標好 我要突顯這個問題是因為3月19號我也在這個委員會質詢"},{"start":789.608,"end":806.728,"text":"我一直提醒勞檢人力是不足然後勞檢不是只有你勞動部跟六都一般縣市勒?是一般縣市勒?也有不足的問題我的母縣、孕育縣你知道嗎剛剛在提到最弱的可以看一下110人就10個人"},{"start":809.525,"end":821.19,"text":"三人是墜落的什麼業務代查啦齁112人9人有6人墜落5人是營造1人是製造113人12人5人墜落2人是營造3人是製造這是近8年最高的其中一個是飼料廠飼料廠喔另外一個是在食品廠然後你們的報告是說他因為中毒"},{"start":836.598,"end":850.007,"text":"它是墜落 它是滑落到那個有早期的地方它如果今天不掉下去沒有這回事啊它也不會中毒啊那這個歸類在墜落還是歸類在中毒但是你們把它歸類在中毒"},{"start":852.452,"end":878.614,"text":"不是這樣啊所以我就跟你講這種墜落在工地的範疇裡面在它實際上在操作的範圍裡面它的墜落的樣態絕對不只營造業啦很多很多的業別沒什麼樣態不一樣我希望你們的你們那個報告可能要再要再詳細精準一些好不好那我當然我還是會強調說回歸到營造業當然它的比例是最高的我們的方法如果用對"},{"start":879.946,"end":889.378,"text":"它可以讓整體的墜落導致死亡人數下降對你整體要達到這個目標當然有幫助嘛但是你也不能輸其他的業別啊"},{"start":891.547,"end":900.618,"text":"我們要表達是這樣子嗎是不是請在一個詳細的一個各個樣態各個評估的這樣的狀態的資料給委內做一個參考還有方法應對的方法謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":610,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時23分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：有請洪部長。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。"],["洪部長申翰：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長辛苦了。明天就是五一勞動節，也是部長就任以來第一個勞動節。部長之前接下部長一職的時候，卓院長有給你三個主要的任務，部長還記得吧？"],["洪部長申翰：記得。"],["劉委員建國：就這三個，我就不再贅述了。請問有達標嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：這幾個月我們很努力，希望往這些方向去邁進……"],["劉委員建國：你沒有回答我，有沒有達標？我當然知道你很努力，我又沒有說你不努力。"],["洪部長申翰：我們盡力做。"],["劉委員建國：好啦！第一個洪部長接任的首要任務就是在後續的處理上，我想部長也展現了十足的行動力跟決心，以穩定整個勞動部，這部分我必須要肯定。","但第二個任務，勞動部是否有健全一個友善合理的職場，讓所有的勞工在安全的環境中為國家、為人民、為社會來做全力的付出呢？我要請部長看一下重大職災死亡人數相關的數據，108年316人；109年313人，其實每每講到這個數據坦白講都是很沉痛；110年278人，這個是疫情的時候；然後111年就開始往上提升；但是到113年又降下來，有287人；114年到4月、截至目前為止，有70人。你們有說應該會比往前年度更少，有把握嗎？就是比前一年更少，有把握嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：今年到現在、到4月，坦白說我們不會用「把握」這兩個字，我覺得我們會盡我們所能努力去做。"],["劉委員建國：但是部長，每一個死亡人數就代表一個讓人非常傷心難過的家庭。勞動部把去年定為營造業墜落打擊年，目標是要比往前一年減少30%的墜落職災；結果到去年9月，光營造業就墜落66人，全年度更高達148人，整個打擊計畫是提早破功。當時何前部長還說，要達到這個目標確實有困難，你們自己訂目標，你們自己訂的叫做「營造業墜落打擊年」，結果對外說達到有困難！","我為什麼要提醒這個事情，因為你們還有另外一個目標，2030年職災要減半，對不對？會不會現在也提早破功？會不會就像何前部長講的，現在提早跟我說達到有困難？"],["洪部長申翰：當初訂定這些目標，坦白說，我覺得這是要訂一個希望能夠更符合現況而且更進步的目標，而2030年這個目標，我還是會說，我們必須全力以赴。"],["劉委員建國：對，我知道，剛剛你也答復說，當然要有目標之外，也還要好的方法，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：這個方法非常重要，但是你們的方法不能只有修職安法，剛剛很多委員垂詢了很多的面向，但是坦白講，我看部長跟署長甚至國土署副總工程司在答復的時候，好像公共工程比較可以去test到，但其他私部門的，幾乎根本是無從著力，等於你把這個目標整體掛在一起，但這邊完全沒有任何有效的方法去做處理，甚至連方法都沒有的情況之下，你當然不可能達標啊！你們不能達標的話，怎麼會設定2030年要減半？這就很矛盾嘛！很衝突嘛！而且我剛剛在廁所遇到署長，我跟署長說這個勞動部報告是誰寫的，署長跟我說是他寫的，然後整體還是focus在營造範疇，當然也有談到整體，比例還有一個2%等等諸如此類的，可是那個樣態真的非常多，連我們雲林的飼料廠都可以發生墜落事件，然後死傷嚴重；剛剛林委員特別提到冷氣的施工人員，不只如此，也有廣告業者等等。反正那個樣態、面向非常非常多，當然你可以講營造業的比例、建商的比例是最高的，但是不能因為這個是最高的，其他的我們就忽略了。"],["洪部長申翰：是，當然。"],["劉委員建國：但是各位可以看到，你把主要類別的死亡人數降下來，當然會有效地呈現你想要達到的目標，這也不為過嘛！這也是方式之一嘛！但是你看一下，我們在113年可以降到287人，是什麼原因？這個原因你們要知道啊！我們回到剛才的重大職災死亡人數表格，這主要是什麼原因呢？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，我們不會只有如此，在職安法修法前，我們還是有很多減災的策略在推動，包括加強勞檢或是辦理相關作業勞工的……"],["劉委員建國：我知道這個都有在做，但是做得到位還是不到位呢？是不是有需要再去做快速的調整呢？是不是要擴大面向、擴大職業別，即是不是要再增加？剛才部長也都有答復。我先請教，113年為什麼你們可以減到287人？主要原因是什麼？"],["林署長毓堂：勞檢以外，其實還有一部分，即各部會一起幫忙也是滿重要的，剛剛委員有提到，不管是交通部、內政部、經濟部，就這個部分我們一起來合作，大家怎麼樣在所管的事業裡面要求防墜的處理，所以就這個部分，跟委員報告，我們的面向應該是滿多面向的。至於287人的部分，應該是營造業有減一部分。"],["劉委員建國：為什麼營造業會減一部分？主要的原因是什麼？"],["林署長毓堂：委員也知道，我們定去年為營造業墜落打擊年，所以我們動用非常多的資源……"],["劉委員建國：是營造業的墜落打擊，還是中央的打房政策？你看，你們有把這個目標降下來，不曉得什麼原因降下來，我覺得部長你們這樣的方法是連自己都沒有把握的方法，然後去形成一個方法，請教你為什麼可以降下來，又講得不是很精準，那這樣你們的這個方法顯然就不是一個好方法。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我同意剛剛委員說的，這不是只有修法的問題，因為徒法不足以自行，其實我們也看到這裡面會有很多是法規落實程度的問題，這也包括比方說這段時間跟署裡面，我們一直在檢討跟討論，剛才說的停復工的這個作法裡面，如果未來要復工的話，他必須要擔負起更多，比方說它是一個系統性的改善，這是在作法上面，如果被停工的廠商要擔負起更高的成本才能夠復工的話，他也會更加地小心，我們也在這個方面去做檢討，所以幾個部分我們都在檢討，希望能夠更加落實這些相關法規。"],["劉委員建國：好啦，部長，你答復我的是剛剛林委員問的另外一個問題，當然停復工的樣態狀況不一，不可能去取得一個平均值，所以你們剛剛沒辦法回答，我也能夠理解。我現在講的是你113可以降到287，主要原因是什麼？署長這樣答復我是很沒有把握的答復，也是自己沒有去掌握。去年雖然沒有疫情，但央行祭出史上最狠的打房政策，讓房地產市場又有了改變。可以看一下，今年狀況也沒有改變，首季在全國的新屋有327萬件，是歷史新低，截至今年4月，職災死亡人數是70人，職安署目前樂觀推估今年職災死亡人數有機會再減少，這是你們的資料，但是我現在最擔心的狀況是等到房市又回溫，加班趕工的亂象會不會又全部出現？就跟在111年的時候又到最高的，是不是最高我也不曉得。所以當建商業者只顧著把落後的進度再補回來的同時，會不會又把勞基法、職安法放在一邊，使職災人數再往上回升？"],["洪部長申翰：這確實是我們要非常小心的一個因素。"],["劉委員建國：所以部長這個絕對要去考量到，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是，當然。"],["劉委員建國：勞動部預估今年的職災人數應該會再下降，如果明年市場回溫，你要如何防範相關業者把勞工的命當成耗材在使用？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們當然不會把勞工的命當耗材，但是我們確實有觀察……"],["劉委員建國：我不是說你，我是說相關的一些業者，為了要趕工、搶工，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對，沒錯，我們確實看到，當業者越趕工的時候，其實他相關的安全衛生可能常常就會疏漏，所以跟工地趕工的狀態其實是有一些相關的，這也是我們要非常非常小心。我們也在跟職安署討論，這部分必須面對，如果有這個狀況的話，我們就要用更強力的方式介入。"],["劉委員建國：好，最後一個問題，當然不是只有修法，還有做勞動檢查嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：可以看一下，3月27日職安署發的新聞，職安署北、中、南同步勞檢，全臺開罰1,023萬，然後在這一次的327大勞檢查了82個工地，總計違反256項，勒令停工28處，總金額我就不再贅述了，看起來好像罰的很重。你再看歷屆的罰款，113年3月29是1,040，還沒有破前年，再來就變成936、再來就變成985，再來就往下降了，這是什麼數字？如果今天職安署的全國勞檢有效，你要怎麼去解釋去年11月的774萬？今年結果怎麼反而反彈，又回到去年同期的一千多萬？職安署跟六都的勞政機關一起勞檢，請教一下，那一般縣市呢？是完全不關他們的事情嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，整個罰鍰的金額是因為那一次整個全國檢查的工地數不一樣。"],["劉委員建國：你們哪一次不是全國的檢查？"],["林署長毓堂：是由首長帶隊，跟當地的主管機關一起聯合稽查。"],["劉委員建國：由首長帶隊跟當地的主管機關，就會把這個罰款金額、查獲違反勞檢的件數提高，只要不是首長、不是各縣市的主管就會偏低，這是什麼邏輯？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，不是這個意思，剛才委員秀的部分是我們有帶隊去做的同步勞檢，實際上，我們去年整個勞檢的裁罰金額也達到5億元，這個是那一天我們首長帶隊的時候所統計出來的數字。"],["劉委員建國：你回答我的道理還不是一樣？只要當天是首長帶隊的，那一天的比例就會偏高；只要不是首長帶隊的，就不是這種金額嘛，你要答復我的應該是這樣吧？"],["洪部長申翰：我聽懂委員的意思，第一個，這些相關的數字並不是說一定要罰到上千萬或者是什麼、以這個東西作為標準，並不是用這個來作為要求。首長帶隊去勞檢比較表達的是對於工地勞安狀況的重視，它的意義比較是在這個地方，倒不是說只要首長帶隊，就一定要罰到上千萬，其實倒也不是這個意思，我覺得是在表達重視。最重要的事情還是這個勞動檢查能不能落實到每一天，然後把該檢查的部分給檢查出來，該罰的部分要罰出來，我覺得這部分才是我們要去努力的目標。"],["劉委員建國：好，我會凸顯這個問題是因為3月19號我也在這個委員會質詢，我一直提醒勞檢人力不足，然後勞檢不是只有勞動部跟六都，那一般縣市呢？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：一般縣市呢？"],["洪部長申翰：也有不足的問題。"],["劉委員建國：我的母縣雲林縣，你知道嗎？剛剛提到墜落的，你可以看一下，111年就10個人死亡，其中3人是因墜落死亡的，至於是什麼產業還待查；112年9人死亡，有6人因墜落死亡，其中5人是營造業、1人是製造業；113年有12人死亡，5人因墜落死亡，其中2人是營造業、3人是製造業，這是近8年最高的，其中一個是飼料廠，另外一個是在食品廠，然後你們的報告說他是因為中毒，其中他是墜落、滑落到有沼氣的地方，他如果今天不掉下去，就沒有這回事，他也不會中毒啊！那這個歸類在墜落，還是歸類在中毒？你們把他歸類在中毒，但不是這樣啊！所以我就跟你講，這種墜落在工地的範疇裡面、在實際上的操作範圍裡面，墜落的樣態絕對不只有營造業，很多的業別，每種樣態不一樣，我希望你們的報告可能要再詳細精準一些，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好。"],["劉委員建國：當然我還是會強調，回歸到營造業，當然它的比例是最高的，我們的方法如果用對，可以讓整體因為墜落導致死亡的人數下降，對你要達到的目標當然有幫助嘛！但是你也不能輸其他的業別，我要表達是這樣子，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好。"],["劉委員建國：是不是針對各個樣態做一個詳細評估資料給委員會做參考，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好，1個月。"],["劉委員建國：1個月。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：還有方法喔！應對的方法，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國召委的發言，謝謝部長的答詢。","下一位請羅廷瑋委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}},{"id":"160794","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160794","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369df7ec042526dcec13c0ba1d923b4b8dbd78ea87b1712f8824c7f6e4539bc04505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:22:06 - 11:32:22","影片長度":"00:10:16","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:22:06+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:32:22+08:00","duration":616,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":0.4697187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.527843750000001,"end":8.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.603468750000001,"end":9.548468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.67909375,"end":10.712843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.813468750000002,"end":15.083468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.37034375,"end":46.791593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.765968750000003,"end":22.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.469093750000003,"end":31.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.519718750000003,"end":31.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.133468750000006,"end":46.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.06159375,"end":53.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.112218750000004,"end":48.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.67659375,"end":53.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.87909375,"end":56.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.91284375,"end":54.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.86596875,"end":76.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.33971875,"end":89.35034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.70659375000001,"end":79.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.87909375000001,"end":86.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.02971875,"end":91.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.54409375,"end":103.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.93471875,"end":120.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.24846875,"end":146.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.91909375,"end":122.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.94409375000001,"end":126.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.40346875,"end":127.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.71534375000002,"end":130.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.59659375,"end":133.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.10596875000002,"end":141.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.77596875,"end":146.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.97846875000002,"end":159.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.33221875,"end":151.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.26346875000002,"end":159.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.44909375,"end":174.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.46596875,"end":159.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.64284375,"end":161.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.38534375,"end":162.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.38784375,"end":187.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.61346875,"end":187.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.93409375000002,"end":204.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.01784375000003,"end":192.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.18221875,"end":193.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.99596875,"end":197.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.69096875000002,"end":215.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.85409375,"end":214.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.15346875,"end":253.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.08159375000002,"end":218.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.41846875000002,"end":220.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.89096875,"end":220.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.94159375,"end":222.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.58284375000002,"end":249.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.78034375000001,"end":259.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.53471875,"end":261.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.84221875000003,"end":281.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.11596875000004,"end":267.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.84784375000004,"end":283.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.66596875,"end":306.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.65284375000005,"end":289.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.68159375,"end":292.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.82471875000005,"end":295.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.13659375000003,"end":297.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.17409375,"end":299.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.91659375,"end":301.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.00846875,"end":315.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.60284375000003,"end":310.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.73284375000003,"end":318.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.16721875,"end":347.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.11596875000004,"end":323.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.60534375000003,"end":351.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.94221875,"end":365.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.67096875000004,"end":360.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.27346875,"end":375.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.30721875,"end":366.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.82096875,"end":373.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.93846875,"end":376.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.29284375000003,"end":387.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.58221875000004,"end":387.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.59909375,"end":387.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.70034375,"end":405.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.26721875000004,"end":430.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.87034375,"end":407.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.95846875,"end":410.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.98471875,"end":432.09846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.67221875,"end":450.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.25721875000005,"end":442.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.07471875000005,"end":463.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.61846875000003,"end":452.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.09784375000004,"end":493.20284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.05409375000005,"end":473.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.50909375000003,"end":478.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.51721875000004,"end":479.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.94971875000005,"end":540.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.08034375000005,"end":494.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.92659375000005,"end":506.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.63096875,"end":507.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.46596875000006,"end":512.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.98034375,"end":514.7522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.85346875,"end":515.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.3047187500001,"end":517.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.90346875,"end":520.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.18159375,"end":521.7722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.2765937500001,"end":534.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.97596875,"end":541.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.1953437500001,"end":554.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.24846875,"end":552.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.03721875,"end":573.9834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.74721875,"end":576.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.98721875,"end":579.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.0378437500001,"end":577.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.34971875,"end":587.7197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.9609687500001,"end":583.1297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.1884687500001,"end":586.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.7747187500001,"end":587.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.1415937500001,"end":612.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.3015937499999,"end":591.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.1072187500001,"end":592.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.48596875,"end":599.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.86346875,"end":615.4453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.7578437500001,"end":614.1965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.52971875,"end":616.3059687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.556,"end":7.859,"text":"好 謝主席啊 請陳部長陳部長"},{"start":14.915,"end":24.886,"text":"副部長 這個這一次的部分特別面對關稅的問題那當然農業部也匡列了180億那我們也希望藉這個機會也調整我們的體質一方面幫助這些受影響的農業一方面也趁機調整體質讓我們更具有競爭力"},{"start":32.034,"end":55.76,"text":"我裡面特別想要帶到的是當然冷鏈這塊持續來推那另外我有看到的包括一些認證驗證的部分我也希望持續來加強那我也特別要提一下那個羽羊乳業的部分這個對羽羊乳業的部分當時我們有一些的也是希望能夠有一些專案收購計畫這個部分經費上會不會受到影響"},{"start":56.889,"end":76.522,"text":"沒有 我們這次的經費的確我們在我們有被刪了20.14億對 有刪有動有刪有動的部分那我們會盡可能的去我所知道在刪的部分的統刪的部分其實已經一部分就影響到我們收購的這些但是我們想我們盡量去調整其他的"},{"start":78.363,"end":105.888,"text":"這些讓有意願退場的退場這樣才能夠持續強化我們的經濟能力這才是一個好的方向政策上確定的那當然經費上說來講我希望我們會盡量來調度其他的經費來支持那另外一個就是其實現在我們這個漁業的MSC的部分這一塊未來也對於拓展我們的歐美的市場也有相當大的幫助我也希望農業部持續來支持這個部分我想跟委員報告特別是在鬼頭刀的部分"},{"start":106.648,"end":124.913,"text":"從FIP到MSC的部分我們已經納入我們整體產業支持方案裡面非常重要的就是協助透過這種標章的認證來做市場的區隔讓我們更順利的能夠將漁產品外交到美國去我希望未來朝這個方向就是說歐美這個市場一定要努力的打進去我們不會放棄"},{"start":126.633,"end":146.595,"text":"持續長遠的方向 也趁這次機會不斷的調整我們的體質然後可以給這些漁民 給這些業者們更多的支持讓他們來具有更強的競爭力那這一次的關稅部分我想都已經做了相當的準備那當然現在是180億嘛 如果未來有更擴大的影響的話農業部會不會持續往上再增加更多的金錢"},{"start":147.116,"end":173.098,"text":"我想是因為現在的關稅的還有它的不確定性嘛還在談判當中對那未來如果關稅確定了以後我們會試關稅的那個最後的那個額度齁如果說經費有不夠的地方我想所以也請所有的農民漁民放心啦齁政府這件事情上會全力的挺住我們的農漁民啦齁就是當然現在是180億但是將來談判結果不論結果出來狀況如果影響有更重大的影響的話政府還會繼續加碼來支持我特別強調齁"},{"start":175.04,"end":196.731,"text":"院長也特別指示了就是說所有的政策一定是農業民優先所以這一點也請我們的農業民朋友來放心如果經費不夠的話我想我們一定會跟行政院爭取更多的經費來支持我們的農業我想一定也都會支持從院長到部長甚至到總統我相信都會支持農業民的這些經費絕不能讓農業民在這件事情上面受到影響"},{"start":197.992,"end":209.346,"text":"那另外當然歐美這塊市場還是要請部長磁力打進去我們不會放棄美國這塊市場吧是 我們絕對不會放棄而且我們有一部分我們反而趁這個機會還可以去擴大我們的市場的規模對"},{"start":213.01,"end":235.293,"text":"以關稅來講不同國家有不同的關稅對 因為它面對美國是面對全世界所以當其他世界有可能它更嚴格的時候有可能也是我們的機會產生的時候所以我們應該努力地打進美國的市場是好 再來我想請教一下跟今天也有開始相關的我們現在的動保跟檢疫防疫其實都很需要很多的一些獸醫的人才但是為了很多人是被挖到了"},{"start":235.894,"end":261.581,"text":"民間去啦齁 那當時的時候其實這幾年我們不管是寵物狗 寵物貓 甚至寵物的相關越來越多啦齁 人數都持續增加那 呃 但是我們的獸醫師反倒呃 這個在政府機關內的不夠補開業獎金 總統當時也做過承諾 這個農業部有開始在做了嗎我想非常謝謝委員的關心 而且也是委員一直關切的這個獸醫師的人力齁那現在獸醫師人力不足 最主要是"},{"start":262.924,"end":282.496,"text":"公務單位本身的薪水比起外面的還低嘛所以那時候包括委員也在爭取那總統也同意了而且我們也擬定的跟人總也討論過了我們現在已經把獸醫師的不開業獎金已經送到行政院我們希望說能夠盡快的最快什麼時候可以開始來實施"},{"start":284,"end":305.752,"text":"我個人期待是五月底到六月初啦所以說五月底六月初院裡面支持以後還是要循那個程序現在已經進到所以人種 農業部支持人種也支持我們跟人種都已經談好相關的這些不開業獎金的金額的部分所以等院宣布支持就可以了院長在之前也宣布他會支持這個方案總統也宣布他要支持這個方案嘛"},{"start":306.112,"end":328.16,"text":"所以我希望加快因為看來總統院長都支持了希望加快那如果最快五月份有可能就可以來納入這個不開業的獎金對我們是朝這個目標來我希望能夠盡快的這個等於更多優秀的人力能夠留在公部門裡面他不出去開業他留在裡面這樣更多人才他們在未來制定政策未來整個制定相關的法規有更強的能力"},{"start":329.04,"end":345.81,"text":"是 好不好 好 謝謝五月份期待能夠儘速完成那再來是現在的寵物越來越多但是寵物的殯葬大家也越來越關切很多人甚至於要這個要離開的時候那個但是現在我們的合法業者非常的少甚至於很多的收費亂象部長這個怎麼來處理"},{"start":348.231,"end":372.526,"text":"這個部分我覺得過去會有亂象最主要是彼此之間沒有一個合約的關係都是漫天喊價的關係所以我想我們農業部也針對這個議題部長那有定型化契約了嗎我們現在我們預計大概6月底就會公布這個定型化契約範本6月份會公布定型化契約的範本有這個範本以後我想所有的大家都要照這個範本來做的話就會減少相關的糾紛"},{"start":375.928,"end":405.042,"text":"好 那另外各個地方政府的部分它的殯葬的自治法規這一塊會去推動嗎現在大概有六個地方政府有在努力啦會鼓勵大家來盡量來訂定這樣的一個自治規範嗎我們現在目前就是相關的殯葬那個寵物生命紀念設施本身我們希望把這些相關的審查的權利都下放到地方政府那地方政府這樣審查都能夠加快它的速度這個部分我想我們也朝這個方向積極的在做"},{"start":405.782,"end":431.804,"text":"積極跟地方政府溝通好不好因為毛小孩寵物這個其實越來越多了它其實對於人類其實有更多的這個很多人都其實跟毛小孩之間的感情也都很深厚甚至於它很多的陪伴的效果我希望這一塊時代的趨勢上是如此應該政府要更加的重視那希望協助更多的地方政府來更有一些清楚的規範讓整個更具有相關的權益更加的清楚會 我想"},{"start":432.885,"end":444.959,"text":"動物的福利的重視是一個社會文明的指標啦然後對於這種所謂的毛小孩或寵物的最後的一段路的話我們更應該給予尊重啦就是我想農業部的態度所以我們講後續我們會更積極的針對後面的這些"},{"start":447.782,"end":462.754,"text":"生命紀念的設施的部分 甚至於很多的一些公開資訊政府也應該更加的協助 當這些確認清楚的時候對於大家就有更多遵循的一些依據好不好 這個請那另外我想請教一下寵物食品管理法的部分現在進入到哪邊了"},{"start":463.334,"end":492.703,"text":"寵物食品管理法現在在我們部裡面在法規會審查那我是要求五月底要完成相關的內部的審查送行政院所以五月底要送行政院那我目標是在下個會期就可以提出來因為寵物食品的管理法希望下個會期完成三讀的程序對那個寵物食品的專法的部分它從原料的進來到生產製造銷售到標示跟它的產品安全都有一完整的一個規範我們希望說盡快的能夠上路"},{"start":493.283,"end":514.235,"text":"這個也越來越重要啦因為現在的寵物家裡越來越多人飼養寵物的時候那你的食品的部分他到底從吃的東西從哪裡來他的管制各方面的甚至於他可能衍生後續的很多一些問題我認為應該有更清楚的一個規範那剛剛部長提到了五月份會送出布裡面這邊那下個會期送進立法院我們希望下個會期來完成這個三讀的程序"},{"start":518.958,"end":541.278,"text":"寵物的食品都可以來支持啦這個一定支持啦我覺得這個是實際上面的現況就是大家更多寵物甚至於很多的食品到底哪裡來的它的一些相關的規範安全的一些部分都並沒有那麼明確我認為這個也都會是很多市主上遇到的問題啦我們希望更清楚的規範之後讓這個市場更加的明確同時也讓所有的寵物能夠有更安全的一些食品好不好"},{"start":542.178,"end":558.586,"text":"再來我最後請教一下現在很多的寵物的用品在家裡面有很多的寵物也都會拿那甚至有多更小的小朋友們可能都會影響到這個會不會能夠去建立一個標準的規範我也非常重視寵物的這些玩具之類的東西"},{"start":559.767,"end":585.836,"text":"那相對的他可能還有一些有毒的物質如果沒有管制好的話所以後續我們會比照類似我們的那個安全的用玩具的安全玩具的這個標準跟標章什麼時候可以來訂定這個應該一併也是在6月這個應該並不困難吧因為已經有很多的安全的標章有了啊對我們又參照那個安全玩具的標章我希望建立一個安全的標章好不好然後訂定清楚讓消費者選擇或者讓所有人有一個很清楚的依循我講我們會盡快來處理6月份嗎"},{"start":588.217,"end":614.886,"text":"五月份六月份我們六月份好不好六月份來好不好六月份把它訂定出來好不好因為出來之後一般這除了是對寵物的影響之外家裡如果有小小孩有時候有可能會受到一些影響對我知道他有可能受到影響所以我希望這個東西照我們的一些相關的標章把它訂定出來之後那讓所有選購有一個清楚的依據哪些是政府做會認可安全的一個標準寵物的用具寵物的玩具好不好好謝謝部長好謝謝委員的提醒謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":632,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時22分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，這一次特別面對關稅的問題，農業部當然匡列了180億，我們也希望藉著這個機會調整我們的體質，一方面是幫助這些受影響的農漁業，一方面也趁機調整體質，讓我們更具有競爭力。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我特別想要提到的是，冷鏈這一塊當然是持續在推，另外我也看到了包括一些認證、驗證的部分，也希望持續加強，我也特別要提一下遠洋漁業的部分，當時我們希望能有一些專案收購計畫，這個部分經費上會不會受到影響？"],["陳部長駿季：我們這次的經費的確被刪了20.14億。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，有刪、有凍。"],["陳部長駿季：就我所知，在統刪的部分其實有一部分已經影響到我們收購的這些……但是我們會儘量去調整……"],["賴委員瑞隆：請部長全力支持好不好？讓有意願退場的退場，這樣才能持續強化我們的競爭力。"],["陳部長駿季：這樣才能讓整個漁業更有競爭力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，這才是一個好的方向，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會朝這個目標來做。"],["賴委員瑞隆：政策上確定了，經費上受到影響……"],["陳部長駿季：我們會儘量調度其他的經費來支持。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。另外一個就是，現在漁業MSC的這一塊，未來也對我們拓展歐美的市場有相當大的幫助，我也希望農業部持續支持，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分要跟委員報告，特別是在鬼頭刀的部分，從FIP到MSC我們已經納入整體產業支持方裡面非常重要的部分，就是透過標章的認證來做市場的區隔，讓我們能更順利地將漁產品外銷到美國去。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望未來能朝這個方向，就是歐美的市場一定要努力地打進去。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們不會放棄。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這是持續、長遠的方向，要趁這次的機會不斷地調整我們的體質，給這些漁民、業者們更多的支持，讓他們具有更強的競爭力。","這次關稅的部分，我想都已經做了相當地準備，當然現在是180億，如果未來影響更擴大的話，農業部會不會再持續往上增加更多的經費？"],["陳部長駿季：會，我想因為現在的關稅還有它的不確定性……"],["賴委員瑞隆：還在談判當中。"],["陳部長駿季：未來關稅如果確定以後，我們會視關稅最後的額度，如果經費有不夠的地方，我想……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以要請所有的農民、漁民放心，政府在這件事情上會全力挺住我們的農、漁民，當然現在是180億，但是將來談判結果出來以後，如果有更重大的影響，政府還會繼續加碼來支持。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我特別強調，院長也特別指示了，就是所有的政策一定是農漁民優先，所以這一點也請我們的農漁民朋友放心，如果經費不夠的話，我想我們一定會跟行政院爭取更多的經費來支持我們的農業發展。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我想一定也都會支持，從院長到部長甚至到總統，我相信都會支持農漁民的這些經費，絕不能讓農漁民在這件事情上面受到影響。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外，當然對歐美這一塊市場也還是要請部長持續打進去，我們不會放棄美國這一塊市場。"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們絕對不會放棄，而且有一部分我們反而還可以趁這個機會去擴大我們市場的規模，因為以關稅來講，不同國家有不同的關稅。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，因為美國是面對全世界，所以當它對其他國家更嚴格，有可能也是我們有機會的時候，所以我們應該努力打進美國的市場。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來我想請教一下跟今天議題相關的部分，現在我們的動保跟防檢疫其實都非常需要獸醫人才，但是因為有很多人被挖到民間去，其實這幾年不管是寵物狗、寵物貓甚至其他寵物都越來越多，數量都持續增加，但是在政府機關內的獸醫師反倒很少。"],["陳部長駿季：不夠。"],["賴委員瑞隆：不開業獎金總統當時也做過承諾，農業部有開始在做了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：非常謝謝委員的關心，委員一直很關切獸醫師的人力，現在獸醫師的人力不足，最主要是因為公務單位本身的薪水比外面還低……"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，薪水低當然就沒有辦法競爭了。"],["陳部長駿季：那時候包括委員也有在爭取，總統也同意了，而且我們有擬訂了，跟人總也討論過了，我們現在已經把獸醫師的不開業獎金送到行政院，我們希望能夠儘快的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：最快什麼時候可以開始實施？"],["陳部長駿季：我個人期待是5月底到6月初。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以在5月底、6月初院裡面支持了以後……"],["陳部長駿季：還是要循那個程序，現在已經進到行政院了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以農業部支持、人總也支持？"],["陳部長駿季：我們跟人總都已經談好不開業獎金的金額部分。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以等院宣布支持就可以了？"],["陳部長駿季：院長在之前有宣布他會支持這個方案，總統也宣布他要支持這個方案。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望加快，因為看來總統、院長都支持。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望加快，最快有可能在5月份就可以納入不開業的獎金嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們是朝這個目標來努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我希望能夠儘快，這樣等於有更多優秀的人力能夠留在公部門裡面。"],["陳部長駿季：對，留在我們的公部門。"],["賴委員瑞隆：他不出去開業，他留在裡面，這樣就有更多的人才，在未來訂定政策、訂定相關的法規時會有更強的能量，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝，期待能夠儘速在5月份完成。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來，現在的寵物越來越多，對於寵物的殯葬大家也越來越關切，但是現在合法的業者非常少，甚至有很多的收費亂象，部長，這個要怎麼來處理？"],["陳部長駿季：關於這個部分，我覺得過去之所以會有亂象，最主要是因為彼此之間沒有一個合約關係，都是漫天喊價，所以我們農業部也針對這個議題……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，那有定型化契約了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們預計大概在6月底就會公布定型化契約範本。"],["賴委員瑞隆：6月份會公布定型化契約範本？"],["陳部長駿季：對，在有這個範本以後，我想……"],["賴委員瑞隆：大家都要照這個範本來進行？"],["陳部長駿季：如果照這個範本來做，就會減少相關的糾紛。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外，在各個地方政府部分，對殯葬的自治法規這一塊會去推動嗎？現在大概有6個地方政府在努力，會鼓勵大家儘量來訂定這樣的自治規範嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：目前對於寵物的生命紀念設施，我們希望把這些相關的審查權都下放到地方政府，讓地方政府能夠加快審查的速度，對這個部分我們也朝這個方向在積極的進行。"],["賴委員瑞隆：要積極跟地方政府溝通好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為毛小孩、寵物其實越來越多，很多人跟毛小孩之間的感情都很深厚，甚至有很多陪伴的效果，這一塊在時代的趨勢上是如此，所以我希望政府應該要更加的重視，也希望協助更多地方政府有一些清楚的規範，讓整個相關的權益更加清楚。"],["陳部長駿季：會，我想對動物福利的重視是社會文明的一個指標，對於所謂的毛小孩或寵物的最後一段路我們更應該給予尊重，這是我們農業部的態度，所以後續我們會更積極的針對這些生命紀念設施的部分去做。"],["賴委員瑞隆：甚至於有很多的公開資訊，政府也應該更加來協助，當這些越清楚的時候，大家就有更多可以遵循的依據，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：接下來我想請教一下寵物食品管理法的部分現在進度到哪邊了？"],["陳部長駿季：關於寵物食品管理法，現在正在我們部裡面的法規會審查，那我是要求5月底要完成內部的審查然後送行政院。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以在5月底要送行政院？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們的目標是在下個會期就可以提出來，因為寵物食品管理法……"],["賴委員瑞隆：希望在下個會期完成三讀的程序。"],["陳部長駿季：對，寵物食品的專法對於原料進來、生產、製造、銷售、標示跟產品安全都有完整的規範，我們希望能夠儘快上路。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個也越來越重要，因為現在越來越多人飼養寵物，那寵物吃的東西到底從哪裡來，還有管制各方面，甚至於後續可能衍生很多的問題，我認為應該要有更清楚的規範。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那剛剛部長提到在5月份會從部裡面送出去，然後下個會期送進立法院。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們希望在下個會期來完成三讀的程序，讓寵物的食品能夠更加……"],["陳部長駿季：也要請委員支持。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對這個一定支持啦！因為我覺得這個是實際上的現況，就是大家養更多的寵物，可是很多食品到底是從哪裡來的，一些相關的安全規範並沒有那麼明確，我認為這是很多飼主都會遇到的問題，我們希望在有更清楚的規範之後，讓這個市場更加的明確，同時也讓所有的寵物能夠有更安全的食品，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我最後請教一下，現在有很多的寵物用品，在家裡面寵物都會用，甚至有時候可能對很小的小朋友們會有影響，是不是能夠去建立一個標準的規範？"],["陳部長駿季：我也非常重視這些寵物玩具之類的東西，相對的，如果沒有管制好的話，它可能會含有一些有毒的物質，所以後續我們會比照安全玩具的標準跟標章……"],["賴委員瑞隆：什麼時候可以來訂定？"],["陳部長駿季：這個應該也一併在6月……"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個應該不困難吧？因為已經有很多安全的標章了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會參照那個安全玩具的標章來儘快的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望建立一個安全的標章，好不好？要訂定清楚，讓消費者選擇，讓所有東西有一個很清楚可以依循的依據。"],["陳部長駿季：好，我們會儘快來處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：在6月份嗎？是5月份還是6月份？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在6月份……"],["賴委員瑞隆：在6月份訂定出來好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：在6月份訂定出來，因為這除了對寵物會有影響之外，家裡如果有小小孩，有時候也有可能會受到一些影響。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我知道。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為他有可能受到影響，所以我希望對這個東西比照我們一些相關的標章來把它訂定出來，讓所有選購的人有一個清楚的依據，知道哪些寵物用具、寵物玩具符合政府認可安全的標準，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝部長。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的提醒。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們現在請邱志偉委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","葉元之","蔡易餘","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","邱議瑩","張雅琳","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員呂玉\n玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員劉建國等 16 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案；七、本\n院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」\n案；八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員李坤城等\n22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案；十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十四、本院委員郭昱晴\n等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護\n法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保\n護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案；十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動\n物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正\n草案」案；十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案；二\n十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二十一、本院委\n員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬\n具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案；二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五\n條之二條文修正草案」案；二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等 17 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17 人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案\n（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144501_00004"}}},{"id":"160793","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160793","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369be7d6f99fcceb1ff0ca66b6f3bc7c703d78ea87b1712f882e268ef1662321ad75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:26:05 - 11:34:45","影片長度":"00:08:40","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:26:05+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:34:45+08:00","duration":520,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.0897187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.3934687500000003,"end":3.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.9797187500000004,"end":7.894718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.67034375,"end":14.610968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.117218750000003,"end":18.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.67784375,"end":32.447843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.93721875,"end":90.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.56534375000001,"end":123.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.40409375,"end":139.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.57034375,"end":146.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.60721875000002,"end":158.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.14971875,"end":201.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.04971875,"end":209.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.36096875,"end":226.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.06721875000002,"end":227.42159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.04596875000001,"end":234.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.27284375000002,"end":234.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.30659375000002,"end":249.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.59534375,"end":276.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.05096875000004,"end":281.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.65784375000004,"end":283.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.34534375000004,"end":285.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.89346875,"end":421.58534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.07471875000005,"end":470.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.29034375000003,"end":447.28596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.59034375000005,"end":513.9253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.65096875,"end":515.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.91659375,"end":517.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.5109687500001,"end":520.9622187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":7.597,"text":"何新淳委員質詢何新淳委員何新淳委員不在我們接下來有請伍麗華委員質詢謝謝主席 有請蕭院長請蕭院長備質詢 謝謝委員長"},{"start":18.932,"end":42.185,"text":"院長早我在2020年五年前曾經質詢過故宮的時候那時候是吳院長那我跟他提到文化平權的這樣的一個概念那當時呢我是希望說在我們故宮它作為一個社交機構那其中有一個很重要的社交功能"},{"start":42.986,"end":57.386,"text":"在推動的一些活動舉個例子當時有一個叫故宮有義司那現在呢還是有這樣的一個活動他會邀請偏鄉的學童進來看故宮的文物"},{"start":57.947,"end":75.358,"text":"那這個活動非常的好可是我當時有提醒因為我們的孩子啊有時候他進入到故宮透過我們的導覽解說他會覺得有一個所謂的文化的一個不對等"},{"start":76.198,"end":97.108,"text":"那也有可能會產生一些負面的學習效果特別是對原住民或者是偏鄉的學童所以我是希望說這樣的一個故宮有一絲的活動呢可以去結合附近像是順義原住民博物館台灣博物館台灣大學人類學博物館等等"},{"start":97.668,"end":121.775,"text":"因為在這個地方有很多原住民文物的精品在這裡那也可以順便去連結讓我們的孩子呢在故宮有意思的活動中也都可以看到自己的一些文物那很高興就是我也是來特別謝謝那自從這樣子反映之後以今年度的這個計畫來看"},{"start":123.516,"end":145.533,"text":"我有看到會去連結順義博物館也有跟這個福祿文化基金會因為他們有很多就是展覽這些原住民文物的展覽都有做這樣的鏈接所以我在這邊呢就是表示肯定那我們來看一下像南苑它有辦理一個百萬學子悠遊博物館"},{"start":146.687,"end":164.305,"text":"那這兩年呢我特別想去了解說我們的偏鄉或原住民學童他們參與的情形以去年來講是所有申請的八十八個單位當中原鄉地區的學校有六所"},{"start":165.146,"end":192.642,"text":"那今年度呢 申請的72間學校目前還沒有任何的原鄉學校參加那另外一個南院辦理的叫移動博物館教具箱那在這裡可以看到去年81間學校沒有任何的原民學校參與那今年呢 49所當中有6所的偏鄉學校所以我在這邊就是想要特別了解一下"},{"start":193.442,"end":197.31,"text":"之所以原鄉學校興趣缺缺不曉得院長您有沒有探究過原因可能是什麼"},{"start":205.263,"end":224.679,"text":"這個部分的話的確我自己個人是沒有探究可是我因為過去工作的關係台灣博物館我也工作過所以我對原鄉有蠻親切的一個感情所以以目前來講我只能說現在的切額還有只要原鄉申請的話我們就一定會優先來錄取"},{"start":228.123,"end":248.599,"text":"我之所以會這樣問就是要去對比我剛才講的那個故宮猶一思因為之前故宮猶一思沒有去結合原住民的這些點的時候也是興趣缺缺可是呢自從有加入這些點之後我們可以看到近前三年"},{"start":249.66,"end":276.465,"text":"一百一十一年也好 一百一十二年也好一百一十三年也好都非常非常的平均大概呢都可以占百分之二十所有參與的學校原住民學校幾乎每一年平均都有百分之二十也就是五分之一也就是說他是很有意願來參與這樣的活動所以我是希望說有時候我們故宮啊"},{"start":277.165,"end":305.79,"text":"它作為一個博物館最高的二級機關其實它會去跟國外進行交流我們也看到也有在跟國內進行交流甚至故宮也能夠走出去做交流像這個跟著織品去旅行我們就覺得這個展真的很棒南苑的亞洲織品展跟原住民編織文化之旅這個頗受好評"},{"start":306.71,"end":324.643,"text":"那我覺得在這個當中我們也可以慢慢透過這種所謂的典藏研究詮釋轉化讓原住民的文物文化能夠跟著故宮的專業能夠往上提升"},{"start":325.484,"end":351.542,"text":"因為很多的時候並不是文化不好而是說他有沒有透過這些詮釋的一個手段那我們就是對故宮就是抱這樣的一個期望那我們很希望說其實像現在原住民文化 原民會他有29座的原民館我相信院長都非常的清楚因為您經常跟原住民做交流"},{"start":352.162,"end":379.603,"text":"那也有很多的私人博物館像我知道的很多像彭水光他其實他現在已經失智了但是他的木雕作品這是他自己的家的展品都非常的好或者是像琉璃之母他自己也有做他私人的一個就是比較因為沒有什麼經費但是他就自己也做了一個自己私人的文物館我的意思是說"},{"start":380.524,"end":401.824,"text":"其實故宮作為我國唯一的二級機關博物館其實是可以做很多事那強化呢 跟我們的地方文物館的連結甚至是私人的這些博物館的連結那甚至是2032年即將要成立 揭牌的原住民族博物館"},{"start":402.705,"end":420.204,"text":"我也希望今年已經開始籌辦那故宮呢也能夠借重你們這些重要的專業的一個博物館的經驗也能夠去拉拔我們的國立原住民主博物館成為一個世界的博物館所以不曉得那個院長你有什麼樣的意見想法"},{"start":422.508,"end":446.226,"text":"我想這個部分我們會持續來推動我想我會嘗試跟客家文化中心合作的方式就是跟客家文化中心同樓跟六隊那邊的中心合作的方式然後慢慢擴展所以我們過去跟客家文化中心合作可是並沒有跟馬家的園民中心有一個比較緊密的聯繫合作"},{"start":446.866,"end":468.277,"text":"所以未來的話我希望說透過這樣的一個連結然後讓那個故宮跟園民文化有更深厚的一個基礎那另外的話這些教育推廣活動的話我們會盡量也透過這樣的一個機制請他們來申請因為基本上透過他們的行政的管道的話可能比我們散彈打鳥會有一點點績效好"},{"start":471.258,"end":495.545,"text":"那我就是希望說不論是南院北院這一些社教的活動故宮有一絲百萬學子又有博物館移動博物館教具箱等等希望故宮這邊能夠再去想一想有什麼樣的誘因那做什麼樣的改變什麼樣的設計那另外呢也是希望故宮不只是故宮希望可以呢帶動加強"},{"start":497.205,"end":513.878,"text":"我們跟各個原民博物館之間的合作那全面的來提升我們的一個文化層次跟能見度那在這邊做這樣的訴求也希望我們的院長我們後續以後來質詢的時候可以聽到更多的一個改變好 謝謝委員的指導好 謝謝院長 謝謝主席謝謝武力華委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":580,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時26分）謝謝主席，有請蕭院長。"],["主席：請蕭院長備質詢，謝謝。"],["蕭院長宗煌：委員早。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長早。我在2020年、五年前曾經質詢過故宮，那時候是吳院長，我跟他提到文化平權這樣的概念。當時我希望故宮作為一個社教機構，有個很重要的社教功能。在推動一些活動中，舉個例子，當時有一個活動叫「故宮遊藝思」，現在還是有這樣的活動，會邀請偏鄉的學童來看故宮文物，這個活動非常好，可是我當時有提醒，因為孩子有時候進到故宮，透過導覽解說會覺得有所謂的文化不對等，也有可能會產生一些負面的學習效果，特別是對原住民或者是偏鄉的學童。我希望這樣的故宮遊藝思的活動可以去結合像是順益原住民博物館、臺灣博物館、臺灣大學人類學博物館等等，因為在這些地方有很多原住民文物的精品，也可以順便去連結，讓孩子在故宮遊藝思的活動中都可以看到自己的一些文物。我很高興也特別謝謝，自從這樣子反映之後，以今年度的計畫來看，我有看到會去連結順益博物館，也有福祿文化基金會，因為他們有很多原住民文物的展覽，都有做這樣的鏈結，所以我在這邊表示肯定。","我們來看一下像南院，它有辦理一個「百萬學子悠遊博物館」，這兩年我特別想去了解偏鄉或原住民學童參與的情形。以去年來講，所有申請的88個單位當中，原鄉地區的學校有6所；今年度申請的72間學校，目前還沒有任何的原鄉學校參加。另外一個南院辦理的叫「移動博物館教具箱」，在這裡可以看到去年81間學校，沒有任何的原民學校參與；今年49所當中，有6所偏鄉學校。我在這邊想要特別了解一下，之所以原鄉學校興趣缺缺，不曉得院長有沒有探究過原因可能是什麼？"],["蕭院長宗煌：這個部分的話，的確我個人沒有探究，可是我因為過去工作的關係，臺灣博物館我也工作過，所以我對原鄉有蠻親切的感情。以目前來講，我只能說現在的缺額還有，只要原鄉申請的話，我們就一定會優先錄取。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我之所以會這樣問，就是要對比我剛才講的「故宮遊藝思」，因為之前「故宮遊藝思」沒有結合原住民的這些點，大家也是興趣缺缺，可是自從有加入這些點之後，我們可以看到前三年，111年也好、112年也好、113年也好，都非常、非常地平均，大概都可以占20%，參與的原住民學校幾乎每一年平均都有20%，也就是五分之一，也就是說他們是很有意願來參與這樣的活動。故宮作為博物館最高的二級機關，它會跟國外進行交流，我們也看到它也有在跟國內進行交流，甚至故宮也能夠走出去交流。像「跟著織品去旅行」，我們就覺得這個展真的很棒，南院的亞洲織品展跟原住民編織文化之旅頗受好評。我覺得在這當中，我們也可以慢慢透過這種所謂的典藏、研究、詮釋、轉化，讓原住民的文物、文化能夠跟著故宮的專業往上提升，因為很多時候並不是文化不好，而是有沒有透過這些詮釋的手段，我們對故宮就是抱這樣的期望。","其實現在原民會有29座原民館，我相信院長都非常清楚，因為您經常跟原住民交流，也有很多的私人博物館，我知道的像是彭水光，他現在已經失智了，但是他的木雕作品就展在他自己家，這些展品都非常好；或是像琉璃珠之母，因為沒有什麼經費，但是他也做了一個自己私人的文物館。","我的意思是，故宮作為我國唯一的二級機關博物館其實可以做很多事，強化跟地方文物館的連結，甚至跟這些私人博物館連結，甚至是2032年即將要成立、揭牌的原住民族博物館，今年已經開始籌辦，我希望故宮也能夠借助這些重要的專業博物館經驗，去拉拔國立原住民族博物館成為一個世界的博物館。不曉得院長有什麼樣的意見、想法？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我想這個部分我們會持續來推動，我會嘗試以跟客家文化中心合作的方式，就是跟客家文化中心在銅鑼的六堆客家文化園區合作的方式，然後慢慢擴展。我們過去是跟客家文化中心合作，可是並沒有跟瑪家的原民中心有比較緊密的連結合作，所以未來我希望透過這樣的連結，讓故宮跟原民文化有更深厚的基礎。另外，有關這些教育推廣活動，我們也會儘量透過這樣的機制請他們來申請，因為透過他們的行政管道，可能會比散彈打鳥的績效好一點點。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。我希望不論是南院、北院這些社教活動，「故宮遊藝思」、「百萬學子悠遊博物館」、「移動博物館教具箱」等等，希望故宮能夠再去想一想有什麼樣的誘因，做什麼樣的改變、什麼樣的設計；另外，也希望故宮不只是故宮，希望可以帶動、加強跟各個原民博物館之間的合作，全面來提升文化層次及能見度，在這邊做這樣的訴求，也希望院長之後來質詢的時候，我們可以聽到更多的改變。"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，謝謝委員的指導。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝院長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員質詢，院長請回座，謝謝。","接下來請王美惠委員質詢，王美惠委員，王美惠委員不在。","接下來有請羅明才委員質詢，羅明才委員，羅明才委員不在。","接下來有請蘇清泉委員質詢，蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","接下來有請張嘉郡委員質詢，張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員不在。","接下來有請鍾佳濱委員質詢，請鍾佳濱委員質詢，鍾佳濱委員不在。","接下來有請洪孟楷委員質詢，洪孟楷委員，洪孟楷委員不在。","接下來有請蔡易餘委員質詢，蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，另有林沛祥委員、張雅琳委員提出書面質詢。","關於今天會議作如下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員所提書面質詢或相關資料將列入紀錄，並刊登公報；對於委員質詢要求請提供相關資料或未及答復部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-9","speakers":["葛如鈞","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","林宜瑾","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","范雲","郭昱晴","陳冠廷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林沛祥","張雅琳"],"page_start":315,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00007"}}},{"id":"160792","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160792","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369396a651cafd4e845693dd611367b4dddd78ea87b1712f8822f53a3f22e0942d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"11:16:12 - 11:28:59","影片長度":"00:12:47","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查「保險法」15案：\n一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案。【後3案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第一百二十三條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:16:12+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:28:59+08:00","duration":767,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.08159375,"end":1.4990937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.9715937500000003,"end":3.2372187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.6590937500000003,"end":4.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.68846875,"end":5.599718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.72159375,"end":9.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.68346875,"end":16.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.09159375,"end":18.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.57659375,"end":19.504718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.89284375,"end":20.550968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.922218750000003,"end":26.929718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.94659375,"end":26.980343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.199718750000002,"end":31.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.739093750000002,"end":46.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.33159375,"end":47.820968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.922218750000006,"end":51.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.242218750000006,"end":53.862218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.87471875000001,"end":56.14034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.41034375,"end":58.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.95846875,"end":60.78096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.557218750000004,"end":62.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.39659375,"end":64.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.57784375,"end":65.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.14721875000001,"end":71.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.49659375,"end":73.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.42034375,"end":73.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.94346875000001,"end":73.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.96034375,"end":106.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.90034375,"end":113.12721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.56596875000001,"end":124.29846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.45034375,"end":131.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.47034375,"end":146.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.09221875,"end":149.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.76284375,"end":152.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.10409375,"end":154.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.69034375,"end":157.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.70659375,"end":171.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.24034375000002,"end":176.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.76284375,"end":178.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.04096875000002,"end":199.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.03784375,"end":218.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.30909375000002,"end":221.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.39284375000003,"end":225.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.85221875000002,"end":233.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.30659375000002,"end":235.01534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.25159375,"end":236.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.17534375000002,"end":238.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.44096875000002,"end":245.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.08534375000002,"end":248.09346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.78534375,"end":249.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.69659375,"end":250.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.74284375000002,"end":252.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.22784375,"end":253.61159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.03346875000003,"end":255.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.83909375000002,"end":259.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.51346875,"end":266.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.34784375000004,"end":269.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.57096875,"end":271.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.73534375,"end":272.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.32159375000003,"end":275.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.65034375,"end":276.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.18596875000003,"end":278.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.09284375000004,"end":280.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.21909375,"end":281.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.84346875,"end":283.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.66596875,"end":284.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.56034375,"end":285.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.16346875,"end":287.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.27721875000003,"end":287.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.79596875000004,"end":289.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.70721875000004,"end":293.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.14534375,"end":294.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.97221875,"end":309.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.19784375,"end":310.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.10471875,"end":351.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.84096875,"end":358.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.91159375,"end":366.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.50534375,"end":368.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.37409375000004,"end":370.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.63971875000004,"end":375.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.55034375,"end":388.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.03784375000004,"end":395.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.71596875,"end":395.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.73284375000003,"end":400.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.90534375000004,"end":400.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.10346875000005,"end":400.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.20471875000004,"end":412.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.61784375,"end":402.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.08471875000004,"end":416.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.45096875,"end":428.26784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.26784375000005,"end":434.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.13596875,"end":437.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.02596875,"end":439.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.69659375000003,"end":448.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.02846875,"end":454.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.64346875,"end":465.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.19471875000005,"end":477.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.63284375,"end":469.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.30659375000005,"end":485.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.50784375,"end":500.86409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.20159375000003,"end":507.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.68596875000003,"end":509.20034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.52096875,"end":514.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.98034375,"end":516.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.96284375,"end":519.5447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.5403437500001,"end":523.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.2065937500001,"end":524.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.0334687500001,"end":524.6240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.6240937499999,"end":530.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.0703437500001,"end":532.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.1628437500001,"end":542.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.0390937500001,"end":551.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.11784375,"end":555.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.35784375,"end":554.9990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.03284375,"end":556.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.88909375,"end":556.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.90596875,"end":563.2847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.63909375,"end":564.2803437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.61784375,"end":575.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.43471875,"end":581.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.35784375,"end":590.0147187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.6359687500001,"end":583.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.06534375,"end":596.3259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.70159375,"end":603.9365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.24034375,"end":607.9865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.6615937500001,"end":611.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.9184687500001,"end":614.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.66909375,"end":620.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.69346875,"end":631.8984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.93221875,"end":670.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.52284375,"end":661.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.89659375,"end":670.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.94721875,"end":670.9978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.9978437500001,"end":671.1497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.1497187500001,"end":671.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.18346875,"end":671.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.21721875,"end":673.0903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.0903437500001,"end":673.1072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":673.1072187500001,"end":673.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.15784375,"end":678.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.64221875,"end":681.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.32534375,"end":683.6709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":683.68784375,"end":685.8815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.6240937500002,"end":688.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.69159375,"end":687.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.63221875,"end":688.7165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.17221875,"end":697.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.4072187500001,"end":698.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.45346875,"end":698.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":698.9765937500001,"end":699.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":699.34784375,"end":699.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.4153437500001,"end":700.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":700.02284375,"end":700.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":701.45721875,"end":705.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":705.9797187500001,"end":713.9953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":713.9953437500001,"end":722.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":723.0403437500001,"end":729.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.68909375,"end":730.1784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":730.7859687499999,"end":738.0928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":735.07221875,"end":735.6965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":738.58221875,"end":740.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":740.50596875,"end":740.6240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":740.77596875,"end":741.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.63659375,"end":741.7547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.80534375,"end":744.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":743.45909375,"end":744.7078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":744.72471875,"end":756.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":755.28846875,"end":755.5247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":756.9084687500001,"end":761.3972187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.35,"end":4.019,"text":"主席可不可以請彭主委請彭主委"},{"start":9.978,"end":30.827,"text":"您想想所有的銀行、證券、保險事實上最重要的是安定要穩定那自從美國川普上任一百天以來可以說是世界上史料上從來未見的上沖下洗"},{"start":31.84,"end":53.516,"text":"那對於未來目前大概他是講說未來的90天的關稅的問題不曉得主委面對台灣整個股市最近的發展有沒有信心那兩萬點到底站得住站不住因為大家都在看日均量"},{"start":54.946,"end":65.032,"text":"最近有一些萎縮的情況兩千多億三千億跟過去以往五千億五千多億"},{"start":66.272,"end":88.429,"text":"已經越走越遠了這個也是不是代表一個整個股市熊市的來臨我想委員這樣講我有些是認同有些沒那麼認同第一個就是我們確實從4月2號開始其實我們除了有兩天因為那個量超過6000億接下來大概就維持在2000再3000億左右"},{"start":92.532,"end":112.748,"text":"那確實比去年的我們的日均量比如說是有比較低我想這也是反映了市場對未來不確定性的一些的一致性的看法雖然剛剛委員提到就是說我們現在台股現在這兩天重新回到了所謂的兩萬點的這樣一個心理的一個關卡不過"},{"start":113.669,"end":128.678,"text":"我們站在一個資本市場的主管機關的角度我們還是一樣我們在在乎的是市場機制能不能充分的發揮能不能是一個沒有能夠去除一些非理性的行為這部分我們是在對這個看法"},{"start":129.518,"end":157.455,"text":"當然我們也看到就是台灣的產業在過去一年包括這個最近揭露這一季的報告我想大家都看到了其實我覺得台灣有很強的基本面的支撐所以剛剛那個委員說對未來台灣資本市場我們還是深具信心所以不論是滿漢全席甚至什麼排骨麵炸醬麵金管會所維持永遠就是基本面"},{"start":159.246,"end":160.067,"text":"我們從我們最近揭露的一個財報數字這一季"},{"start":176.9,"end":202.29,"text":"所有的營收跟獲利都創下非常好的成績剛才委員講說基本面我覺得如果說講個開玩笑基本面是外面資本因為所有的消息面最後還是會回歸到基本面沒有基本面的支撐其實我覺得資本市場是沒有基礎所以我覺得這還是非常重要既然基本面是如此的重要"},{"start":202.89,"end":220.384,"text":"那本席有提了一個就是保險法第146條知事的修正條文那很可惜就這一次在整個修法當中好像沒有列入進去那事實上如果這個有關所有保險業的資金"},{"start":222.692,"end":234.601,"text":"當初我就未雨綢繆希望說台灣受險也好 產險也好投資海外的部分應該要多多來關心關愛台灣的"},{"start":237.219,"end":265.87,"text":"企業的發展特別是剛剛主委的一席話更印證了很多的上市公司保險公司不見得要投資海外最近整個售險公司的淨值嚴重的下滑大概慘跌超過2200億以上看到現在整個大環境的變化保險業大概面臨了一個三大危機"},{"start":267.401,"end":286.776,"text":"第一個,美國股市下跌第二,美國公債嚴重發生變化第三個,台幣的匯率不斷的升值面對這樣的情況現在在下個月,就是五月"},{"start":287.335,"end":310.147,"text":"那請問五月整個授權的它的淨值比會不會嚴重再往下掉我想這個淨值比啊它是根基於我們的IFRS財報的數字財報它的基本原則就是充分的反映當下所有的資訊來得快去得也快所以各位看到第一季"},{"start":311.167,"end":329.417,"text":"它會比較大的下滑剛好去年的基期是最高的那當然這個因為我們的淨值的波動直接反映了這些數字其實從長遠的角度來看不見得代表就是一個趨勢的確定我想這是也要再三的說明不過"},{"start":330.177,"end":348.485,"text":"任何一個的巨大的波動都是一個很重要關注的點所以剛剛有委員關心過我們有沒有針對這些東西做一些推演那當然是我們日常監獄的一部分剛剛委員用三大危機來形容我會覺得比較好是三大挑戰因為其實壽險業擁有這麼大的龐大資產"},{"start":351.986,"end":368.228,"text":"然後有這麼多的海外的投資那當然是他過去的很多歷史因素的造成那當然他就會受到股價匯率跟利率的影響這個影響是中性的有時候好有時候不好比如說也許我們的匯率台幣漲"},{"start":369.549,"end":395.408,"text":"對我們的那個那個債務工具評價會下跌但是呢帶動的利率下跌它的評價又會上升相對的未來我們接軌以後負債也會隨著利率而同步的波動其實這很多的是很複雜我們隨時來關注這件事情所以請教一下現在國內所有的產險、售險總市值大概是多少"},{"start":395.948,"end":415.505,"text":"市值我沒有這個數字因為我們其實現在大部分都沒有上市櫃現在已經成長到大概37兆左右因為我們現在大部分的保險公司很多是在金控下面他不上市了所以沒有我們只有少數公司單獨是在上市所以市值比較可能沒辦法看出他們真正的下市我們看到最近這個剛剛有說三大挑戰的"},{"start":417.483,"end":419.426,"text":"過去我們有一家正在做增資改善計畫中哪一家"},{"start":435.807,"end":453.082,"text":"我們就不要這邊單獨講一下另外低於300以下還有哪幾家300的數字因為這是動態的啦我待會請同仁稍微提供一下我再跟委員報告即便是動態啦那我們就是從3月底好了"},{"start":453.842,"end":466.192,"text":"這個資料都有不過我們法定的這些的減核點是6月30號那一點跟12月31號那一天那其他他們算的只是他們內部參考用的所以每個月變動的情況你們數字上應該都有所以這些涉險公司面臨了很多爭執的壓力"},{"start":473.437,"end":499.123,"text":"大概今年預估會有幾家壽險公司需要增值現在我們如果從我們最新一季的資本市足率來看的話現在沒有立即上面這些的問題但是呢國際的金融情況隨時在變化假如持續下去的話我們保險法的增值不是說一碰到那個比如說不到200或不到3%就要增值不是這樣因為那個是波動很大我們會連續觀察兩期還有就是它"},{"start":501.263,"end":530.163,"text":"我們分成四級來管理比如資本不足 嚴重不足 顯著不足所以最近會不會有發生接管的問題那當然這個是我覺得現階段沒有這樣考慮保險安定基金現在有多少如果上次我沒記錯大概大概現在430幾億400多億的話夠不夠那個沒關係因為我們所有的這個未來他都有一些的籌資就是說安定基金他會"},{"start":531.478,"end":551.507,"text":"這個逐步在累積依保險法的規定它未來可以有譬如說可以借款可以做其他的方式來籌資倒不是說一定要用這個錢做一個基礎啦是 我們看到整個壽險公司海外的投資比越來越高現在投資海外大概有多少的金額現在大概是60%左右總資產裡面大概60%"},{"start":557.226,"end":578.893,"text":"這個比例是相當高的而且授權公司大概很多都是大多數押債美國公債或者是美國的一些其他公司債大概押債美國公債的部分統計大概有多少其實授權公司買美國公債不多大概佔5700"},{"start":581.454,"end":607.727,"text":"五十幾億左右對但整個它將近美國投資將近比如說將近接近九兆多其實不算高那個比例他們主要受險公司他投資比較多的是在公司債這些比較評級比較高的公司金管會會不會要求他們為了風險的考量美元可能會繼續貶啊而且不是貶而已啊是大貶啊我們看到"},{"start":609.541,"end":631.5,"text":"台幣對美元的匯率最近台幣不斷的升值因為美國給全世界每個國家都很大的壓力所以面對這個情況經營管會會不會道德勸說要求他們在投資美國公債或是美國公司債方面要審慎的考量"},{"start":632.16,"end":659.003,"text":"當然我們對於國外投資啊他們大概都有一定的這個這個方法跟管控的工具剛剛我們報告為什麼他們要買這些投資平級的公司債而且長期我有看過那數據他們的比重是分配在20年左右的常債身上他們買這個比例不是為了交易他是為了要持續的獲得報酬跟他的負債做對應就是利息啦"},{"start":659.723,"end":685.697,"text":"所以說這些短期的波動對他實質的經營跟流動性而言是沒有太顯著影響只是說會計的評價部分會比較大的波動主委可是川普他說建議說100年那個利息就先免掉啊這我們的評估應該是針對政府跟政府之間啦對民間的部分第一個大概大陸嘛那還有日本嘛台灣外匯存底也非常多啊"},{"start":686.656,"end":700.338,"text":"我們買了92%的公債但是那是政府的部分我們剛剛提到我們的授請公司是這些民間公司購買美國公債的部分其實比例相對是比較低的啦那還是希望"},{"start":701.496,"end":729.048,"text":"主委這邊可以多多勸說台灣的基本面那麼好的話可不可以讓這些受險公司的資金趕快回流台灣做公共建設也好做長照也好這是我們努力的方向就是我們在跟國發會推動那個兆元投資我們希望說我們各個部會能夠多多提供很好的投資標的讓我們台灣所收到的保費能夠投資在台灣這是我們努力的方向這半年來有回來的嗎"},{"start":731.194,"end":755.368,"text":"就是我們對新錢的部分我們鼓勵他留在台灣每年的話會增加差不多大概是1.5到2.5兆之間的新錢今年有投資台灣嗎我們鼓勵他們這樣做還沒開始還是要有標的才是最重要的加強力度那今天的部分討論的我還希望說站在民眾深斗小民的立場多多為他們的權益來著想我們當然謝謝"},{"start":757.31,"end":760.418,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝明財接著請李坤城委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":591,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時16分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好！主席，可否請彭主委？"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好！"],["羅委員明才：彭主委，你轄下所有的銀行、證券、保險事實上最重要的是安定，要穩定，自從美國川普上任100天以來，股市可以說是世界史料上從來未見的上沖下洗，對於未來90天的關稅問題，不曉得主委面對臺灣整個股市最近的發展，有沒有信心？2萬點到底站得住還是站不住？因為大家都在看日均量，最近有一些萎縮的情況，兩千多億、3,000億，跟以往的5,000億、五千多億已經越走越遠了，這個是不是也代表整個股市熊市的來臨？"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員這樣講，我有些是認同，有些沒那麼認同……"],["羅委員明才：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：第一個，我們從4月2日開始，除了2天量超過6,000億，接下來大概就維持在2,000億、3,000億左右，確實比我們去年的日均量低，我想這也是反映市場對未來不確定性的一致性看法。雖然剛剛委員提到臺股這兩天重新回到所謂2萬點的這樣一個心理關卡，不過站在一個資本市場主管機關的角度，我們還是一樣，在乎的是市場機制能不能充分的發揮，能不能去除一些非理性的行為，這是我們對這個的看法。當然我們也看到，臺灣的產業在過去一年的成績，包括最近揭露的這一季報告，我想大家都看到了，其實我覺得臺灣有很強的基本面支撐，所以剛剛委員說的，對未來臺灣的資本市場，我們還是深具信心。"],["羅委員明才：好，所以不論是滿漢全席，甚至什麼排骨麵、炸醬麵，金管會所維持的永遠就是基本面，剛剛這是開玩笑在講啦！不過基本面的確是很重要，所以主委對於臺灣所有1,850家上市公司的基本面是有信心的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們從最近揭露的財報數字來看，這一季所有的營收及獲利都創下非常好的成績，剛剛委員講基本面，我覺得如果講個開玩笑的，基本面是萬面之本，因為所有的消息面最後還是會回歸到基本面，沒有基本面的支撐，我覺得資本市場是沒有基礎的，所以我覺得這還是非常重要。"],["羅委員明才：好，既然基本面是如此的重要，本席有提保險法第一百四十六條之四的修正條文，很可惜！在這一次的整個修法當中，好像沒有列進去。","事實上，有關保險業的資金，當初我就未雨綢繆，希望臺灣的壽險也好，產險也好，投資海外的部分應該要多多來關心、關愛臺灣企業的發展，特別是剛剛主委的一席話，更印證很多的上市公司、保險公司不見得要投資海外。最近整個壽險公司的淨值嚴重的下滑，大概慘跌超過2,200億以上，看到現在整個大環境的變化，保險業大概面臨了三大危機，第一個、美國股市下跌，第二個、美國公債嚴重發生變化，第三個、臺幣的匯率不斷升值。面對這樣的情況，下個月就是5月，請問5月整個壽險的淨值比會不會再嚴重往下掉？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這個淨值比是根基於IFRS財報的數字，財報的基本原則就是充分的反映當下所有的資訊，來得快，去得也快，所以各位看到第一季它會比較大的下滑，剛好去年的基期是最高的，那當然，因為我們淨值的波動直接反映了這些數字，其實從長遠的角度來看，不見得代表這就是一個趨勢的確定，這也是要再三的說明。","不過任何一個巨大的波動都是一個很重要關注的點，所以剛剛也有委員關心過，我們有沒有針對這些東西做一些推演，那當然是我們日常監理的一部分。剛剛委員用三大危機來形容，我會覺得比較好的形容是三大挑戰，因為壽險業擁有這麼龐大的資產，有這麼多的海外投資，那是他過去很多歷史因素的造成，當然他就會受到股價、匯率及利率的影響，這個影響是中性的，有時候好，有時候不好，比如我們的臺幣漲，對我們的債務工具評價會下跌，但是帶動了利率下跌，它的評價又會上升，相對的，未來我們接軌以後，負債也會隨著利率而同步的波動，其實這很複雜，我們隨時來關注這件事情。"],["羅委員明才：所以請教一下，現在國內所有的產險、壽險總市值大概是多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們沒有這個數字，因為現在我們大部分都沒有上市櫃……"],["羅委員明才：過去大概五兆多，現在已經成長到大概三十七兆左右。"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為現在我們大部分的保險公司是在金控下面，它不上市，所以沒有，我們只有少數公司是單獨在上市，所以市值可能比較沒辦法看出他們真正的價值……"],["羅委員明才：好的，我們看到最近在剛剛所說三大挑戰的變化之下，造成很多壽險公司的淨值嚴重的下滑，目前RBC低於300%的有幾家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：過去我們有一家正在做增資改善計畫中……"],["羅委員明才：哪一家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這我們就不要在這邊單獨講……"],["羅委員明才：三商人壽。另外低於300%的還有哪幾家？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為這是動態的，我待會會請同仁稍微提供一下，我再跟委員報告。"],["羅委員明才：好，即便是動態，我們就從3月底好了，這個資料都有嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：不過我們法定的檢核點是6月30日那一天及12月31日那一天，其他他們算的只是他們內部參考用的，我們保險法規定……"],["羅委員明才：對，所以每個月變動的情況，數字上你們應該都有……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們隨時都在掌握，對。"],["羅委員明才：所以這些壽險公司面臨了很多增資的壓力，今年預估大概會有幾家壽險公司需要增資？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們如果從最新一季的資本適足率來看的話，現在沒有立即上面這些問題，但是國際的金融情況隨時在變化，只要持續下去的話，我們保險法的增資不是一碰到比如不到200%或不到3%就要增資，不是這樣，因為那個波動很大，我們會連續觀察兩期，我們分成四級來管理，比如資本不足、嚴重不足、顯著不足，我們會有不同的……"],["羅委員明才：所以最近會不會有發生接管的問題？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我覺得現階段沒有這樣的考慮啦！"],["羅委員明才：沒有這個問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["羅委員明才：保險安定基金現在有多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果我沒記錯，現在大概四百三十幾億。"],["羅委員明才：四百多億的話夠不夠？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那個沒關係，因為未來它都有一些籌資，就是說安定基金逐步在累積，依保險法的規定，它未來可以用其他的方式來籌資，比如說可以借款，倒不是一定要用這個錢作為基礎。"],["羅委員明才：我們看到整個壽險公司海外的投資比越來越高，現在投資海外的大概有多少的金額？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在大概是總資產裡面百分之六十左右。"],["羅委員明才：這個比例是相當高的，而且壽險公司大多數都是押在美國公債或者是美國的其他公司債，押在美國公債的部分統計大概有多少金額？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實壽險公司買美國公債的不多，大概在五千七百五十幾億左右，但是他們在整個美國的投資將近九兆多，那個比例其實不算高，壽險公司投資比較多的是在評級比較高的公司債。"],["羅委員明才：金管會會不會要求他們？為了風險的考量，美元可能會繼續貶，而且不是貶而已，是大貶，我們看到臺幣兌美元的匯率，最近臺幣不斷的升值，因為美國給全世界每個國家很大的壓力，所以面對這個情況，金管會會不會道德勸說，要求他們在投資美國公債或是美國公司債方面要審慎的考量？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，對於國外投資他們大概都有一定的方法跟管控的工具，剛剛跟委員報告，為什麼他們要買這些投資評級的公司債，而且是長期的？我有看過那個數據，大部分的比重是分配在20年左右的長債身上，他們買這麼多的比例不是為了交易，是為了要持續的獲得報酬，跟它的負債做對應。"],["羅委員明才：就是利息啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以他們不是……"],["羅委員明才：可是問題是現在危險啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這些短期的波動對它實質的經營跟流動性而言是沒有太顯著的影響，只是在會計的評價部分會有比較大的波動。"],["羅委員明才：主委，可是川普說，建議能轉換成100年，然後利息先免掉。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對此我們的評估應該是針對政府跟政府之間，對民間的部分，我覺得這還是……"],["羅委員明才：第一個大概是大陸嘛！還有日本嘛！臺灣外匯存底也非常多，我們買了92%的公債。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，但是那是政府的部分，我們剛剛提到，這些民間的壽險公司購買美國公債的部分其實比例相對是比較低的。"],["羅委員明才：好，還是希望主委這邊可以多多勸說，臺灣的基本面那麼好的話，可不可以讓這些壽險公司的資金趕快回流臺灣，做公共建設也好，做長照也好。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也是我們努力的方向，就是我們在跟國發會推動「兆元投資國家發展方案」，我們也希望各部會能夠多多提供很好的投資標的，讓我們臺灣所收到的保費能夠投資在臺灣，這是我們努力的方向。"],["羅委員明才：這半年來有回來的嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，就是對新錢的部分我們鼓勵它留在臺灣。"],["羅委員明才：新錢的部分有……"],["彭主任委員金隆：每年差不多會增加1.5到2.5兆之間的新錢。"],["羅委員明才：今年有投資臺灣嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們鼓勵他們這樣做。"],["羅委員明才：還沒開始。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，還是要有標的才是最重要的。"],["羅委員明才：加強力度。今天討論的部分，我還是希望站在民眾、升斗小民的立場，多多為他們的權益來著想，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們當然，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝明才。","接著請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","黃珊珊","羅智強","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","黃國昌","陳玉珍","王世堅","林思銘","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","徐富癸","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「保險法」15案：一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員\n王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人\n分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案；二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第\n一百二十三條之一條文草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等\n19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百\n七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案","agenda_id":"1144301_00006"}}},{"id":"160791","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160791","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423695c595e1a743360090ca66b6f3bc7c703d78ea87b1712f88252f4ff4b236371f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:17:50 - 11:26:00","影片長度":"00:08:10","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:17:50+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:26:00+08:00","duration":490,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.008468750000002,"end":10.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.20659375,"end":10.898468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.282218750000002,"end":12.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.29909375,"end":14.189093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.84284375,"end":16.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.19284375,"end":18.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.40784375,"end":96.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.57284375,"end":103.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.31409375000001,"end":185.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.58846875,"end":189.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.24596875,"end":228.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.67034375,"end":240.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.93096875,"end":238.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.57159375,"end":239.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.61784375000002,"end":260.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.00284375,"end":261.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.18409375000005,"end":307.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.64534375,"end":320.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.23409375,"end":328.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.41846875000005,"end":334.29096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.79721875,"end":336.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.82221875000005,"end":349.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.74846875000003,"end":434.98409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.06409375000004,"end":468.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.16034375000004,"end":482.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.03534375000004,"end":489.47346875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.022,"end":10.723,"text":"我們看到近年故宮門票的收入不是很理想我們光光以112年度門票收入的決算是3億6770萬5千元"},{"start":32.93,"end":50.581,"text":"那雖然叫109年跟111年的這個年度呢是稍有回升但是我們仍與疫情發生前的差距還是很大我也有看到2015年故宮參觀人數是亞洲第一名但近年來的吸引力一直下降"},{"start":51.241,"end":55.107,"text":"所以根據觀光署最新的一個統計今年2月份全台人氣第一名的博物館是55萬4251人次的國立海洋科技博物館"},{"start":66.164,"end":95.587,"text":"但是我們看到我們的故宮博物館我們只有十五萬一千九百六十人次他是落在第五名落在第五名所以要請教院長請教院長故宮你要如何的來增加多元的行銷宣傳那麼是不是要舉辦一些推廣的活動來提升民眾對於參觀的意願那面對我們的人數參觀人數不如以往的時候甚至是"},{"start":97.05,"end":102.185,"text":"這個被超越一直超越的情況之下顧關你還有什麼樣的方法可以來盡進請做說明"},{"start":105.9,"end":127.795,"text":"因為我們當然非常期待故宮的觀眾可以回流因為故宮過去的話國外的旅客站平均整個站七成那現在降到五成的確是一個影響那另外一個好處的話就是國內的觀眾增加但是增加的比例的話是似乎沒有辦法回復到原來的一個榮景"},{"start":129.196,"end":149.775,"text":"那當然我們也非常高興看到國外有其他油管那觀眾人是增多可是有時候計算基礎不一樣因為那個海洋科技博物館的話他有三個館每一個館進去的話都算一次尤其他的潮境館的話是跟餐廳結合在一起所以那個地方的話那個人潮最多當然我們不能用這樣來談那故宮自己"},{"start":154.259,"end":170.822,"text":"為了增加觀眾然後讓他回流其實我們也做了很多努力包括在展覽策展上面的話我們盡量盡量可以呼應整個策展的那個理念然後跟那個流行的其實做一些比較潮的一些展覽"},{"start":171.983,"end":189.706,"text":"那推廣教育活動的話我們也一直在處理那另外的話行銷的部分的話不管是門票的串聯行銷管社的串聯行銷然後跟關公的串聯行銷基本上這個我們都有在做院長到目前為止本席給你將近一分鐘的時間回答"},{"start":190.347,"end":216.096,"text":"但是你所說的是我告訴你本席告訴你的數字它的結果是如此所以我希望你們要去討論去精進你既然目前的樣態是如此數字連你都不滿意在這樣的情況之下更有討論的空間好好的去精進方案我們怎麼樣去多元的行銷將書面資料給本席我希望"},{"start":216.696,"end":227.812,"text":"故宮是這麼重要的一個博物館我們希望要能夠提升民眾參觀的一個意願以及國外的朋友都能夠回到我們的故宮來是不是"},{"start":228.757,"end":251.544,"text":"是 我們當然就是有青少年的兒童藝術祭然後配合那個亞洲藝術祭好 請你把你進進的方案順便資料給本席明年的同會的話我們都會加強來宣導加強宣導接下來本席要請問民國十四年雙十節的時候我們故宮正式成立所以今年即將要迎接建院的一百週年請教院長"},{"start":252.564,"end":278.555,"text":"針對於建業100週年您有哪些活動以及展覽要慶祝我們這麼盛大的故宮100週年請做說明展覽活動的話從去年的大美不言其實就已經開始了就是說我們有系列的展覽活動那個展覽活動的清單的話是可以給委員那當然接下來比較重要的活動的話在國外的部分的話就有那個美國大都會的展覽"},{"start":279.295,"end":307.638,"text":"那國內的話在十月份的話就有系列的展覽就是避送就是我們宋朝的那個文獻大觀然後還有那個西安亞籍跟那個日本界的五碼圖重要的展覽那另外甲子萬年的話是我們故宮自己本身推出的一個在地性的展覽這個展覽的內容的話絕對不會比建運九十年的那時候的那個內容差絕對比它精彩而且它的"},{"start":308.759,"end":335.361,"text":"在民國九十年的時候我們看到九十周年的時候兩岸故宮有許多的合作特別是在台北故宮推出的郎士林來華三百年的特展那個特展的話不是跟台北不是兩岸故宮合作那是台北故宮的展覽當然是台北故宮的展覽所以在一百周年有兩岸合作的展覽嗎"},{"start":337.198,"end":348.513,"text":"跟委員報告沒有 因為現實的一個政治環境 地緣政治這樣的情況之下 就飛機輪船繞來繞去的話兩岸其實現在並沒有一個非常良善的合作的契機"},{"start":350.124,"end":365.709,"text":"我們也希望在文化方面它是不堪遇到我們的政治當然我們也希望在一百週年的時候我們的展出是能夠精彩絕倫的因為一百週年的生日快樂這是不簡單的我們希望能夠看到好的一個展覽的呈現接下來本席要請教在今年三月"},{"start":377.153,"end":404.475,"text":"東吳大學跟國立故宮博物院那麼我們簽署了合作備忘錄這個非常好 透過這個博物館學術專業博物館的這個展示以及社會教育的功能緊密來結合大學社會責任這些的實質交流計畫故宮可以更進一步的落實博物館的公共化政策達成全民化生活化以及國際化的一個"},{"start":406.136,"end":430.532,"text":"但是東吳大學在善盡大學社會責任的同時也積極的擴大社會參與提升整個國際的競爭力那除此這個北部的大學合作之外其他的縣市成為我們台中整個大台中的學校呢有很多的這個功能以及機能都可以來做合作請教院長有沒有這樣子的一個合作計畫"},{"start":436.596,"end":457.002,"text":"目前故宮的所謂的合作計畫當然很多包括研究單位 包括學術單位北師大 然後南藝大 比如說像東吳大學中部的話目前沒有可是我們中部的話在跟中部要積極合作就是把我們的校園大使送到張師大那邊去"},{"start":458.863,"end":476.313,"text":"未來的話如果有可能的話跟中部的地方合作進行相關的一個內容那基本上我們願意來處理好謝謝院長你的回答本期也就是希望我們能夠擴大大專院校或者是高中職以及學生的一個參與讓全民化讓生活化讓國際化的目標可以達到謝謝"},{"start":485.867,"end":487.495,"text":"謝謝楊秋英委員的質詢請院長回座謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":559,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時17分）謝謝主席，請院長。"],["主席：請院長備詢，謝謝。"],["蕭院長宗煌：楊委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長好。我們看到近年故宮門票的收入不是很理想，112年度門票收入的決算是3億6,770萬5,000元，雖然較109年和111年度稍有回升，但是與疫情發生前的差距還是很大。我們也看到2015年故宮參觀人數是亞洲第一名，但近年來的吸引力一直下降，根據觀光署最新統計，今年2月份全臺人氣第一名的博物館是55萬4,251人次的國立海洋科技博物館，但是我們看到故宮博物館只有15萬1,960人次，它是落在第五名，所以要請教院長，故宮要如何來增加多元的行銷宣傳？是不是要舉辦一些推廣的活動來提升民眾參觀的意願？面對我們的參觀人數不如以往的時候，甚至被一直超越的情況之下，故宮還有什麼樣的方法可以來精進？請說明。"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們當然非常期待故宮的觀眾可以回流，因為故宮在過去國外旅客平均占七成，現在降到五成的確是一個影響，另外一個好處就是國內的觀眾增加，但是增加的比例似乎沒有辦法回復到原來的榮景，當然我們也非常高興看到國外有其他友館的觀眾人數增多，可是有時候計算基礎不一樣，因為海洋科技博物館有3個館，每一個館進去都算一次，尤其它的潮境館是跟餐廳結合在一起，所以那個地方人潮最多，當然我們不能用這樣來談。故宮自己為了增加觀眾，然後讓他回流，其實我們也做了很多努力，包括在展覽策展上面的話，我們儘量可以呼應整個策展的理念跟流行的趨勢做一些比較潮的展覽，推廣教育活動的話，我們也一直在處理；另外，行銷的部分，不管是門票的串聯行銷、館舍的串聯行銷，然後跟觀光的串聯行銷，基本上我們都有在做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：院長，到目前為止，本席給你將近1分鐘的時間回答，但是你所說的是本席告訴你的數字，它的結果是如此，所以我希望你們要去討論、精進，你既然目前的樣態是如此，數字連你都不滿意，在這樣的情況之下更有討論的空間，好好的去精進方案，以及你們怎麼樣去多元的行銷，請將書面資料給本席。故宮是這麼重要的博物館，我們希望要能夠提升民眾參觀的意願，以及讓國外的朋友都能夠回到我們的故宮，是不是？"],["蕭院長宗煌：是，我們當然就是有青少年的兒童藝術祭，然後配合亞洲藝術祭，包括明年的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請你把精進方案提供書面資料給本席。"],["蕭院長宗煌：明年的燈會我們也都會加強宣導。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要請問，民國14年雙十節的時候，故宮正式成立，所以今年即將要迎接建院100週年，請教院長，針對於建院100週年，有哪些活動及展覽要慶祝這麼盛大的故宮100週年？請說明。"],["蕭院長宗煌：展覽活動的話，從去年的「大美不言」其實就已經開始了，就是說我們有系列的展覽活動，那個展覽活動的清單可以給委員。當然接下來比較重要的活動，在國外的部分就有美國大都會的展覽；國內的話，在10月份就有系列的展覽，如「皕宋」，就是宋朝的文獻大觀，然後還有西園雅集，跟日本借了《五馬圖》等重要的展覽。另外「甲子萬年」是我們故宮本身推出的一個在地性展覽，這個展覽的內容絕對不會比建院90年那時候的內容差，絕對比它精彩，而且它的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不會比較差。在民國90年，我們看到90週年的時候兩岸故宮有許多的合作，特別是在臺北故宮推出的郎世寧來華三百年特展……"],["蕭院長宗煌：那個特展不是兩岸故宮合作，那是臺北故宮的展覽。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然是臺北故宮的展覽，所以在100週年有兩岸合作的展覽嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，沒有，因為現實的政治環境，地緣政治這樣的情況之下，就是飛機、船艦繞來繞去的話，兩岸其實現在並沒有一個非常良善的合作契機。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，在文化方面，它是不堪遇到政治，當然我們也希望在100週年的展出是能夠精彩絕倫的，因為100週年的生日快樂是不簡單的，我們希望能夠看到好的展覽呈現。","接下來本席要請教，今年3月東吳大學跟國立故宮博物院簽署了合作備忘錄，這個非常好，透過博物館學術專業、博物館展示及社會教育的功能，緊密結合大學社會責任等實質交流計畫，故宮可以更進一步的落實博物館公共化政策，達成全民化、生活化及國際化的目標。但是東吳大學在善盡大學社會責任的同時，也積極擴大社會參與，提升整個國際競爭力。除了與北部的大學合作之外，其他縣市誠如臺中，整個大臺中的學校有很多的功能及機能都可以來合作，請教院長，有沒有這樣子的合作計畫？"],["蕭院長宗煌：目前的話，故宮所謂的合作計畫當然很多，包括研究單位，包括學術單位，北師大、南藝大，譬如說像東吳大學，中部目前沒有，可是我們跟中部要積極合作就是把我們的校園大使送到彰師大，未來如果有可能的話，跟中部地方進行相關內容合作，基本上我們願意來處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝院長的回答，本席也就是希望你們能夠擴大大專院校或者是高中職，以及學生的參與，讓全面化、生活化、國際化的目標可以達到，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員的質詢，請院長回座，謝謝。","接下來有請何欣純委員質詢，何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","接下來有請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-9","speakers":["葛如鈞","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","林宜瑾","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","范雲","郭昱晴","陳冠廷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林沛祥","張雅琳"],"page_start":315,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00007"}}},{"id":"160790","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160790","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369ba5e2cb7d5afce7d385a4fd0f0fffa49d78ea87b1712f8823f3c00194d6c03235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:14:21 - 11:24:31","影片長度":"00:10:10","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:14:21+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:24:31+08:00","duration":610,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.03846875,"end":8.637218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.82284375,"end":16.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.76784375,"end":10.122218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.383468750000002,"end":14.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.70659375,"end":89.73846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":90.64971875,"end":109.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.54409375,"end":94.14284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.11284375000001,"end":98.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.82409375,"end":131.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":115.91159375000001,"end":116.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.28034375000001,"end":134.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":134.54159375,"end":136.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":137.27534375000002,"end":137.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.29221875000002,"end":138.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.09784375,"end":158.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.06659375,"end":150.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.13409375,"end":150.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.14534375000002,"end":162.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.29659375,"end":165.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.65909375,"end":176.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.81846875000002,"end":172.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.04971875,"end":182.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.19221875000002,"end":191.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.21284375000002,"end":186.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.49471875,"end":200.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.94534375,"end":211.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.63159375,"end":207.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.52971875,"end":215.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.17471875,"end":220.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.18221875,"end":230.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.05909375000002,"end":225.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.10971875,"end":225.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.08346875,"end":236.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.83784375000002,"end":262.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.06159375000004,"end":265.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":266.31846875,"end":272.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":272.86596875000004,"end":273.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.28784375000004,"end":276.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":276.56159375000004,"end":287.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":281.59034375000005,"end":282.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":288.05346875000004,"end":302.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":301.92471875,"end":302.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":302.85284375000003,"end":304.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":304.16909375,"end":319.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":304.20284375,"end":304.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":304.35471875,"end":304.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":319.72784375000003,"end":320.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":321.56721875,"end":321.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.84971875,"end":323.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.84534375000004,"end":342.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":338.00346875,"end":338.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":338.22284375000004,"end":338.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":338.52659375,"end":338.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.67784375,"end":343.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":344.23034375000003,"end":352.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":353.44409375000004,"end":355.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":355.24971875,"end":360.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":360.36284375,"end":365.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":366.69096875,"end":380.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.62721875,"end":369.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.86346875000004,"end":369.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":379.78596875000005,"end":379.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":380.05596875000003,"end":380.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":380.10659375,"end":380.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":380.56221875,"end":381.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":381.33846875,"end":381.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":381.42284375,"end":381.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":381.43971875,"end":381.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":381.52409375,"end":381.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":381.60846875000004,"end":381.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":381.82784375,"end":382.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.03034375000004,"end":382.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":382.45221875000004,"end":382.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.63784375,"end":384.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":384.44346875,"end":384.46034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":384.46034375000005,"end":384.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":386.46846875,"end":386.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":386.51909375,"end":386.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":386.56971875000005,"end":386.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":386.72159375,"end":389.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":390.19784375,"end":404.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":393.79221875,"end":394.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":403.90034375000005,"end":405.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":405.73971875,"end":405.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":405.75659375000004,"end":407.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":407.59596875000005,"end":408.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":409.19909375000003,"end":412.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":413.31659375000004,"end":416.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":418.19346875,"end":420.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.13409375000003,"end":420.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.70784375000005,"end":422.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.91846875000005,"end":431.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.09846875000005,"end":436.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.80659375000005,"end":438.42659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.52784375000005,"end":447.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":446.74596875000003,"end":454.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.67721875,"end":454.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":454.74471875,"end":458.64284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.63471875000005,"end":456.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":457.27596875,"end":457.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.29284375000003,"end":459.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":459.92534375,"end":459.94221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.94221875000005,"end":459.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":459.97596875000005,"end":464.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":464.83596875,"end":467.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":467.90721875,"end":470.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":470.57346875,"end":475.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":475.29846875000004,"end":476.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":476.86784375,"end":480.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":481.39034375000006,"end":485.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":486.04784375,"end":503.78346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":506.31471875000005,"end":511.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.83284375000005,"end":545.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":511.93409375000005,"end":512.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":545.22846875,"end":560.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":561.7153437500001,"end":563.8584687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.01034375,"end":567.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":565.57971875,"end":566.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":566.6259687500001,"end":566.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.0434687500001,"end":579.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":579.7040937500001,"end":584.2434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":584.32784375,"end":585.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":586.25159375,"end":595.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":595.41471875,"end":596.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":597.49034375,"end":598.2665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":598.60409375,"end":609.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":604.98284375,"end":606.5690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":608.5265937500001,"end":608.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":608.9653437500001,"end":609.5390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":609.75846875,"end":609.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":609.9778437500001,"end":610.2140937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.072,"end":15.907,"text":"好 謝謝主席喔 麻煩邀請我們陳部長好 交通部陳部長我們這個吳次長 代理董事長然後我們預案會林主委吳代董事長 還有林主委"},{"start":28.098,"end":41.727,"text":"上次運安會的主委來的時候大概有提到一些這個運安報告的缺失的檢討然後那包括這個無論是這個一年就是所有列管案件最多的是我們的"},{"start":43.208,"end":59.266,"text":"這個港務局 港務相關的那另外一部分三年以上的最多的也是我們的台鐵公司就是列管的缺失的案件那都是在部長的麾下那既然有這麼多的改善的缺失缺失要改善那都在部長這邊"},{"start":60.447,"end":89.306,"text":"沒有辦法改善 就是說可能包括台鐵的三年內有五件嘛 超過三年 列管超過三年的那這部分喔 只有兩個可能嘛第一個 就是我們慾安會提出的報告這個業務機關自愛難行那第二個 那就是業務機關面對慾安會的一個檢討報告 他們執行不力啦那部長大概 這個針對 我們先講針對台鐵的啦超過三年的的部分 有五件你們實際上遇到的困難大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":90.897,"end":110.462,"text":"報告委員是運安會的問題還是執行業務的部分運安會的要求我目前為止並沒有聽到部內所屬機關說有所以運安會的檢討都是合理的目前的檢討的狀況其實我知道每一個案子都在進行當中有一些確實還沒有完成那沒有完成有個別的原因每個案子不一樣每個案子不一樣所以有五件因為有一些我看"},{"start":111.162,"end":135.317,"text":"有五件目前還在列管當中那可能兩件跟第三代CDC的採購有關那有的跟新車來組織的調整有關或者是耗資系統的檢測等等那沒關係我們今天就具體的針對這五項已經列管超過三年的缺失部長在這邊能不能具體的承諾這五項缺失可以在多久的時間內完成改善台鐵這邊有沒有辦法針對這個問題"},{"start":139.811,"end":162.357,"text":"剛提到應安會的建議其實從109到113年他總共大概有建議的114個分項台鐵的部分其實已經完成了99個分項還剩下11個分項那11個分項我們後面大概目前這樣規劃剛提到應安會的部分他的要求是這樣你如果說有涉及到所謂硬體的部分你硬體必須"},{"start":163.717,"end":191.157,"text":"發包以後你才可以解除那如果是軟體的部分你必須要完成之後看到成效覺得還不錯他才會解除裂管所以他們的裂管其實是非常的嚴謹那剛剛提到包括CDC這些的問題我想我們剩下11個分項我們會在今年我們會再完成4個分項今年完成4個分項那明年可以再分成再兩個分項把它完成"},{"start":191.55,"end":208.28,"text":"那後面當然CTC的部分我們這個部分應該會在今年我們就來發包CTC今年就能夠啊第三代CTC今年就完成發包所以你剛剛 再重複一遍總共11個分項嘛那有5個分項是列管超過3年嘛對不對那今年完成"},{"start":209.212,"end":230.492,"text":"今年完成四項那115我們會完成兩項那還有剩下的五項是哪部分的問題會導致我們可能還需要更多的時間來調整就剛剛講了有些是我們整個制度上的問題那些可能要稍微晚一點我想這個設計的部分我們會盡早的把它完成我們現在這個部分大概都有列管來做啦"},{"start":231.653,"end":250.354,"text":"像剛剛講的那個影音設備部分其實剛剛部長也特別講了我們是一定要往前走因為像我們預案會剛剛那個市長也有說就是提出來的並不是說硬體採購完成了才叫做解列嘛而是說發包了之後這個他們知道你們已經在做了之後就他們就也沒有說一定要看到結束嘛對不對那"},{"start":251.195,"end":262.004,"text":"那針對這個次長剛才說的這個一年內四項嘛明年兩項那部長你能不能針對11項你的目標你的目標11項要在幾年內讓運安會完成解列"},{"start":266.36,"end":285.666,"text":"報告委員我們希望在116年以前全部都可以完成好116年底116年116年底之前運安會的這11項的列管的缺失我們都可以再完成解除列管對沒錯好那謝謝好那另外這個部長跟您也算是這個"},{"start":288.1,"end":310.584,"text":"那個台鐵可能台鐵公司留下來那我們高鐵也麻煩一下就是我最近我最近這個有在大家都有在看我們的影集那Netflix最近有一個影集叫做新幹線驚爆倒數我不知道部長有沒有看過我前兩天才看你有看嗎有看好那我們可以聊一下那包括柯南這柯南的電影之前也有一個這個什麼這個列車炸彈的一些相關的議題其實大家都說現實生活有時候總是比電影來的來的"},{"start":317.866,"end":332.175,"text":"來的這個更為讓人家覺得這個就是更為誇張啦就是電影情節現實生活常常會比電影情節更為誇張那你也知道這個可能這兩部電影裡面的情節就是說在列車上面裝炸彈"},{"start":334.396,"end":350.368,"text":"要求列車要在100公里以上的速度才不會爆炸假設我們今天交通部或是鐵道公司或是高鐵也接收到類似的警告說我們從南港站發車的列車到左營"},{"start":353.493,"end":365.482,"text":"他的速度不能夠低於 時速100公里那否則他會被爆炸 那當然他也提出一些儲金的要求那我們交通部或是鐵道公司 高鐵公司會做怎樣的一個相對應"},{"start":366.961,"end":389.213,"text":"報告委員 這個算是關鍵基礎設施啦所以他的安全性的問題其實也牽涉到整個國安系統 大家也都很關心那針對 如果是有類似啦 電影情節裡面第一個原則性的問題 會不會跟恐怖份子做交涉我們國家的制度會跟恐怖份子做交涉嗎"},{"start":391.054,"end":415.855,"text":"這個要由國安單位去做判斷我們有一個國家安全辦公室當發生這樣的事情我們會馬上通報國家安全辦公室由他們來做判斷這不是由交通部這邊能夠做判斷所以你們不會決定說要不要交涉那假設要營救啦就是不交涉的情況下那接下來就是營救嘛那我們會怎樣的來不只我們交通部啦會怎樣跨機關的來做一些經濟處置"},{"start":418.403,"end":433.195,"text":"緊急處置這個我們有演練過嗎我們最近是我們的台鐵相關的一些演練也都有針對恐怖攻擊來做一個演練那國安辦公室也會來參與那有沒有辦法講具體一點"},{"start":434.876,"end":464.076,"text":"對我們有這樣的一個劇本劇本那像在國家安全辦公室也會指導我們就是怎麼樣來針對如果有一些恐怖事件發生的時候我們來做一個演練他們有一個演練的劇本那這個部分其實您有看過影片所以大概您也會好奇說他大概劇本怎麼樣然後怎麼因應我在想這個是不是會後有我們再把資料給我們這個鐵案演習的相關劇本其實甚至因為他已經被拍成電影了那有時候大家都知道會有一個模仿效應"},{"start":465.297,"end":480.41,"text":"這種東西也是有可能發生包括我們2021年的時候我們也曾經發生過就是有這個通報在台鐵上面裝炸彈那當然最後發現是虛驚異常那假設它是真的呢那電影已經演了這麼多那這件事情聽起來也不是說"},{"start":481.451,"end":503.616,"text":"做不到的事情 聽起來不是做不到的事情 那我希望說交通部門也能夠做一些最基本的 譬如說我剛剛講 連看電影的人都會知道說我們要先做的就是維持這個幹線上面的一個疏通嘛你們必須要緊急調度把所有的其他 所有的班次都暫停嘛把所有的列車排除在我們的這個幹線上面 然後後續才能做一些營救的工作嘛"},{"start":506.374,"end":530.739,"text":"是沒有錯其實除了台鐵高鐵其實也都有一些因應的模式所以跟委員報告其實我們這個跟國安單位都有一個很好的一個聯繫因為這個時候第一個我們就是會通報這個國安系統那國安系統的話整下來的話我們在我們這邊的話鐵路警察是第一線跟我們一起在合作的所以我們平常也有去針對這些做一些這種資訊的這種聯繫然後怎麼樣應盡的話其實是我們也有"},{"start":535.32,"end":549.725,"text":"類似的一些砂盤的推演來做但不過像剛才這種情況的話我們也可以繼續的來跟這個國安單位來跟他研究然後我們怎麼來做那實務上在電影裡面出現的他可能有一些營救方式比如說把這個車廂去把它拆解然後再用其他的車廂追上這台列車去把旅客輸運這樣實務上我們做不做得到"},{"start":561.889,"end":585.239,"text":"電影裡面的情節跟實務上我們列車這是不太可能啦不太可能但是我們如果知道他是放在哪一個車廂的話那我們當然會把前後三個車廂的客人全部都往外挪往其他的車廂挪移這樣所以電影新幹線的情節在實務上比較屬於電影裡面的想像"},{"start":586.305,"end":607.973,"text":"好 那沒關係 那後續啦 部長我們就是針對這樣子類似一個恐怖攻擊的一個議題那如果說後續要怎麼來營救我們的旅客好不好 希望能夠做一個檢討跟預演 演練我不是說實際上演練 而是說我們必須要在行政上面去做一些至少要沙盤推演沙盤推演 然後再提供一些資料給我們 以上 好不好 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":641,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時14分）謝謝主席，麻煩邀請陳部長……"],["主席：請交通部陳部長。"],["廖委員先翔：伍次長、代理董事長，還有運安會林主委。"],["主席：請伍代理董事長，還有林主委。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝。部長好，各位早安。上次運安會主委來的時候大概有提到一些運安報告缺失的檢討，包括所有列管案件最多的就是港務局、港務相關的，另外一部分，3年以上最多的就是臺鐵公司列管缺失的案件，都是在部長的麾下。既然有這麼多的缺失要改善，而且都在部長這邊沒有辦法改善，包括臺鐵列管超過3年的有5件，這部分只有兩個可能：第一個，針對運安會提出的報告，業務機關窒礙難行；第二個，業務機關面對運安會的檢討報告執行不力。部長，我們先講臺鐵，超過3年的部分有5件，你們實際上遇到的困難大概是怎麼樣？是運安會的問題，還是執行業務的部分？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，針對運安會的要求，我目前為止並沒有聽到部內所屬機關說有窒礙難行的狀況……"],["廖委員先翔：所以運安會的檢討都是合理的？"],["陳部長世凱：以目前檢討的狀況，其實我知道每個案子都在進行當中，有一些確實還沒有完成，沒有完成有個別的原因，每個案子不一樣。"],["廖委員先翔：我看到有5件目前還有列管當中，可能2件跟第三代CTC的採購有關……"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["廖委員先翔：有的跟新車來了以後組織的調整有關，或者是號誌系統的檢測等等，沒關係，我們今天就具體地針對這5項已經列管超過3年的缺失，部長在這邊能不能具體地承諾，這5項缺失可以在多久的時間內完成改善？"],["陳部長世凱：好，臺鐵這邊有沒有辦法針對這個問題……"],["伍代理董事長勝園：跟委員報告，剛剛提到運安會的建議，其實從109年到113年總共大概建議了110個分項，臺鐵的部分已經完成了99個分項，也就是還剩下11個分項。"],["廖委員先翔：是。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：針對這11個分項，我們目前大概這樣規劃，第一個，剛剛提到運安會的要求是這樣，如果涉及到硬體的部分，硬體必須發包以後才可以解除；如果是軟體的部分，必須要完成之後看到成效，覺得還不錯，才會解除列管，所以他們的列管其實是非常地嚴謹。剛剛提到包括CTC這些問題，我想剩下11個分項，今年我們會再完成4個分項。"],["廖委員先翔：今年完成4個分項？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：對，今年完成4個分項，明年可以再把2個分項完成，後面關於CTC的部分應該會在今年就來發包。"],["廖委員先翔：第三代CTC今年就完成發包？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：是，儘量完成發包。"],["廖委員先翔：不好意思，再重複一遍，總共11個分項，有5個分項是列管超過3年，對不對？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：對。"],["廖委員先翔：今年完成……"],["伍代理董事長勝園：今年完成4項。"],["廖委員先翔：今年完成4項？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：對，115年我們會完成2項。"],["廖委員先翔：2項嘛？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：對。"],["廖委員先翔：還有剩下的5項是哪部分的問題會導致可能還需要更多的時間來調整？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：就是剛剛講的，有些是我們整個制度上的問題，那些可能要稍微晚一點，我想涉及的部分我們會儘早完成，現在這個部分大概都有列管來做。"],["廖委員先翔：好。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：譬如像剛剛講的營運設備部分，其實剛剛部長也特別講了，我們一定要往前推動。"],["廖委員先翔：剛剛次長也有說，運安會提出來的並不是硬體採購完成了就能夠解列，而是發包了之後，他們知道你們已經在做了，也沒有一定要看到結束，對不對？針對次長剛才說的1年內4項、明年2項，部長，對於這11項，你的目標是要在幾年內讓運安會完成解列？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們希望在116年以前全部都可以完成。"],["廖委員先翔：好，116年底之前，運安會這11項列管的缺失都可以完成解除列管？"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝。另外，臺鐵公司的代表留下來，高鐵的代表也麻煩一下。大家都有在看影集，Netflix最近有一個影集叫做「新幹線驚爆倒數」，不知道部長有沒有看過？"],["陳部長世凱：我前兩天才看。"],["廖委員先翔：你有看嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：有看。"],["廖委員先翔：很好，我們可以聊一下。包括柯南的電影之前也有列車炸彈的相關議題。其實大家都說現實生活有時候總是比電影來得讓人覺得更為誇張，就是現實生活常常會比電影情節更為誇張，你也知道可能這兩部電影裡面的情節就是在列車上面裝炸彈，要求這個列車要在100公里以上的速度才不會爆炸。假設今天交通部或臺鐵公司或是高鐵也接收到類似的警告，說從南港站發車到左營的一個列車，速度不能夠低於時速100公里，否則它就會爆炸，當然他也提出贖金的要求，那麼交通部或是臺鐵公司或高鐵公司會有怎麼樣相對應的對策？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這算是關鍵基礎設施，所以它的安全性問題其實也牽涉到整個國安系統，大家也都很關心，如果是有類似電影情節裡面有炸彈……"],["廖委員先翔：第一個是原則性的問題，會不會跟恐怖分子做交涉？我們國家的制度會跟恐怖分子做交涉嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這要由國安單位去做判斷，我們有一個國家安全辦公室，當發生這樣的事情，我們會馬上通報國家安全辦公室，由他們來做判斷，這不是交通部這邊能夠做判斷的。"],["廖委員先翔：所以你們不會決定說要不要交涉，那假設要營救，就是不交涉的情況下，接下來就是營救，不只交通部，會怎麼樣跨機關來做一些緊急處置？"],["陳部長世凱：緊急處置這個我們有演練過嗎？"],["馮總經理輝昇：我們臺鐵相關的一些演練也都有針對恐怖攻擊來做演練，國安辦公室也會來參與。"],["廖委員先翔：有沒有辦法講具體一點？"],["馮總經理輝昇：我們有這樣一個劇本，國家安全辦公室也會指導我們怎麼樣針對如果有一些恐怖事件發生的時候，我們來做一個演練。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，他們有一個演練的劇本，這個部分其實您有看過影片，所以您也會好奇大概劇本是怎麼樣，然後怎麼因應，我在想這是不是會後提供給委員？"],["馮總經理輝昇：我們再提供資料，就是鐵安演習的相關劇本。"],["廖委員先翔：甚至這些情節已經被拍成電影了，大家都知道有時候這會有模仿效應，這種事情也是有可能發生，包括2021年的時候也曾經發生過有通報在臺鐵上面裝炸彈，當然最後發現是虛驚一場，但假設這是真的呢？電影已經演了這麼多，這件事情聽起來也不是做不到的事情，所以我希望交通部能夠做一些最基本的應處，像我剛剛講的，連看電影的人都會知道要先做的就是維持幹線上的疏通，你們必須要緊急調度，把其他所有的班次都暫停，把所有幹線上的列車都排除，後續才能做一些營救的工作。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯，除了臺鐵，其實高鐵也都有一些因應的模式。"],["鄭董事長光遠：是，跟委員報告，其實我們跟國安單位都有很好的聯繫，遇到這個情況，第一個，我們就是會通報國安系統，國安系統再下來，在我們這邊，鐵路警察是第一線跟我們一起合作的，所以我們平常也有針對這些部分做資訊的聯繫，我們也有一些類似的沙盤推演。不過如果是像剛才提到的這種情況，我們也可以繼續來跟國安單位研究要怎麼來做。"],["廖委員先翔：在電影裡面出現的，可能有一些營救方式，比如把車廂拆解，再用其他車廂追上這臺列車將旅客輸運出去，在實務上我們做不做得到？以剛剛提到的電影裡面的情節跟實務上我們的列車來看。"],["鄭董事長光遠：這是不太可能啦。"],["廖委員先翔：不太可能？"],["鄭董事長光遠：不太可能，但是我們如果知道他是放在哪一個車廂，我們當然會把前後三個車廂的客人全部都往外挪，往其他的車廂挪移。"],["廖委員先翔：是，所以電影新幹線的那個情節在實務上比較屬於電影裡面的想像？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係。部長，後續就是針對類似像這樣恐怖攻擊的議題，要怎麼來營救我們的旅客，希望能夠做一個檢討跟預演、演練，我不是說實際上的演練，而是說我們必須要在行政上面去做一些……"],["陳部長世凱：至少要沙盤推演過。"],["廖委員先翔：沙盤推演，然後再提供一些資料給我們，好不好？以上，謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（11時24分）","繼續開會（11時34分）"],["主席：請各位就座，我們繼續開會。","現在請林俊憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160789","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160789","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369815638a1f5a69d32385a4fd0f0fffa49d78ea87b1712f882e00a675d9541ec565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"11:04:11 - 11:14:06","影片長度":"00:09:55","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:04:11+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:14:06+08:00","duration":595,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.84909375,"end":7.607843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.02971875,"end":10.763468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.235968750000001,"end":11.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.43721875,"end":19.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.85909375,"end":46.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.28534375,"end":49.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.947218750000005,"end":81.95909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.26284375,"end":84.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.43534375,"end":99.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.91409375,"end":101.58471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.00659375000001,"end":110.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.54534375,"end":120.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.88971875000001,"end":133.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.81596875,"end":142.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.99596875,"end":179.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.74971875,"end":184.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.71096875,"end":209.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.70284375,"end":225.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.32909375000003,"end":226.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.94909375,"end":228.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.63221875000002,"end":234.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.13784375,"end":243.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.85784375000003,"end":257.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.35784375000003,"end":263.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.34846875,"end":278.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.32096875,"end":279.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.56534375,"end":279.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.88596875,"end":283.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.58159375,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.91909375,"end":340.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.96971875,"end":285.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.67346875000004,"end":316.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.21159375,"end":329.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.82596875,"end":340.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.78784375000004,"end":347.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.78284375000004,"end":346.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.30159375,"end":347.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.70659375,"end":361.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.90284375000005,"end":369.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.74221875,"end":363.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.36221875,"end":365.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.36159375,"end":373.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.28534375000004,"end":370.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.98096875000005,"end":375.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.63471875000005,"end":390.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":391.76721875000004,"end":392.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":393.47159375,"end":399.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.40346875,"end":400.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":400.22159375,"end":404.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.44034375,"end":404.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.89596875,"end":423.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.35721875,"end":426.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.91784375000003,"end":428.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":426.95159375000003,"end":427.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":428.84159375,"end":429.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":430.37721875000005,"end":432.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":432.82409375000003,"end":437.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.16096875000005,"end":437.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":438.52784375000005,"end":448.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.57846875,"end":439.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":448.77096875,"end":460.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.74534375,"end":450.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.96471875000003,"end":451.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.09471875,"end":456.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.03971875,"end":459.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.26284375,"end":461.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":460.60034375000004,"end":461.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.29221875,"end":478.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":467.50221875000005,"end":467.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.18409375000005,"end":479.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.58909375,"end":494.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.97471875,"end":502.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":502.28159375,"end":505.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.47534375000004,"end":505.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.02784375000005,"end":520.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.8103437500001,"end":534.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.32284375,"end":537.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.6303437500001,"end":539.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":538.9340937500001,"end":542.4272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":542.8490937500001,"end":548.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":549.0590937500001,"end":556.5515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":556.7709687500001,"end":558.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.30659375,"end":558.8803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":559.0490937500001,"end":565.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.11221875,"end":561.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.9722187500001,"end":565.3772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":565.17471875,"end":570.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.23721875,"end":578.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":574.5234687500001,"end":574.9284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":577.51034375,"end":577.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":578.7590937500001,"end":581.0034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.9740937500001,"end":594.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":585.0365937500001,"end":585.4753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":585.4753437500001,"end":585.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.58846875,"end":591.8034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.6428437500001,"end":593.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":593.69346875,"end":594.68909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.563,"end":7.212,"text":"謝謝主席 請主席邀請部長還有吳代理董事長陳部長還有我們吳代理董事長"},{"start":19.485,"end":47.892,"text":"委員好部長早因為今天委會安排的議題就是有關鐵路運營安全事件的檢討所以本席還是針對有關台鐵的營運安全再跟部長還有我們的吳代理董事長來進行討論雖然這都已經老生常談了可是我覺得說真的好像談到我不曉得說是不是都麻痺了我覺得這個真的是一個很嚴重的問題"},{"start":48.752,"end":76.48,"text":"因為我們看到從去年2024年12月19號這個潮州基地發生了這個就是新型的自強號在檢修的時候撞上紙衝擋一直到今年就是就這個月4月20號還發生了這個就是進行連掛作業的時候為停車撞上新自強號這樣子短短不到5個月的時間就發生了七件的這個吊車事故"},{"start":77.04,"end":98.707,"text":"而且這個吊車事故都是人為因素嘛都是人為的一個因素那我們再來看一下就是一樣從今年1月5號就是這個司機員錯認位置所以導致這個車子最後一車沒有進月台一直到也是這個月份4月24號這樣子四個月內"},{"start":102.048,"end":118.608,"text":"就發生了七件的停車不當的事件那這幾件還有過站不停的三件所以這樣子的停車不當的事件也是人為的因素所造成的所以我覺得這狀況部長你覺得嚴不嚴重"},{"start":121.216,"end":142.167,"text":"報告委員,就數據上來看,我認為是嚴重的,而且一般的民眾也覺得會有不安的感覺,所以這個部分我們要趕快來改善,並且要趕快來做改革的行為。所以我覺得說這樣子的一個事故的頻繁,我覺得真的就好像是不是都讓台鐵的人都覺得見怪不怪了,好像都麻痺了。"},{"start":143.032,"end":168.066,"text":"包委員這就是我們擔心的就是說我們的員工我們的同仁有沒有照SOP在進行的這件事我們接下來會強烈的要求並且對於沒有照SOP來做工作的這個執行的時候我們會做比較嚴厲的懲處這是一方面那二方面整體的改革方案我也已經拜託台鐵公司在做準備包含耗製的部分的安全要怎麼樣加強"},{"start":168.866,"end":183.528,"text":"包含我們針對駕駛員的這個紀律的約束我們該怎麼做加強這個部分我們目前整包都在討論那我們希望趕快做這個改革的這個期程是好因為我們回想就是在台鐵"},{"start":184.77,"end":208.686,"text":"可以在最近幾年就是去年這樣子前年就是可以這樣加速的一個公司化也是因為台鐵發生了這個重大的一個事故之後在社會的一個期待跟壓力之下所以才加速了這個公司化那當初在公司化的時候台鐵自己喊的口號也是台鐵改革從安全開始"},{"start":209.887,"end":228.707,"text":"我們也是希望就是說我們加速這個台鐵公司化的期待也是希望台鐵在這個安全的部分能夠強化然後能夠增加民眾的一個信心可是這樣子超過一年的時間我們覺得說真的喪失信心了"},{"start":229.708,"end":249.685,"text":"所以到底要怎樣來落實這個改革剛剛部長講的我是覺得說我應該還要再去思考那到底是什麼原因造成我們的司機也好或者是調度員也好這個人偽事故的一個疏失"},{"start":250.365,"end":266.801,"text":"因為我覺得說懲處也不是唯一的一個辦法要去了解什麼原因造成他們發生這樣一個疏失是壓力過大還是勞力不均等等造成的一個結果"},{"start":267.802,"end":282.988,"text":"我覺得應該從源頭去找出來原因之後去做一個調整不然的話如果說一味的說要加強這個懲處我覺得這可能又造成他們更大的壓力懲處是最後啦對前面其實該加強的是什麼是我們的員工的教育訓練對"},{"start":284.048,"end":299.262,"text":"做事情要照SOP因為我們目前就每一個案件看起來很多都是因為員工並沒有照該規定的SOP下去做那所以這個部分我們要要求他們必須要照SOP下去做懲處是最後如果你真的沒有照SOP我只好懲處你"},{"start":300.043,"end":322.826,"text":"那前面除了SOP的這個教育訓練之外我們也會加強就是說在駕駛員的訓練之外就是說針對駕駛員因為運安會其實在五六年前也有要求過我們希望在駕駛室裡面有影音的安全輔助系統那這個部分我們也在今年度一定會來推進這個進程一定要做到運安會對我們的要求"},{"start":323.546,"end":343.978,"text":"這個部分我們一定要做到所以整體的改革的方案目前台鐵正在研擬不只是駕駛式也不只是教育訓練或者是說SOP的執行跟落實那另外針對硬體的部分的改革我們也目前正在進行當中跟委員報告對 是 我也有看到新聞報導就是有關月台"},{"start":344.478,"end":373.22,"text":"安全門的加強我們也都在做剛剛部長講到說SOP要落實就是說目前我們有關這個安全營運的各個面向的安全的SOP都有確實有訂好了嗎訂好這樣子的SOP都有報告委員其實SOP一直都有現在的問題是在於說我們的朋友沒有落實沒有依照SOP的規定下去做沒有按照規定去做那有沒有去了解為什麼沒有按照規定去做"},{"start":374.276,"end":392.492,"text":"這個是不是要去要先去找出原因啦不然如果說我們高層我們營運的那個層級定了SOP然後結果基層做不到是做不到還是不會做要去了解一個原因是我跟委員"},{"start":393.615,"end":422.83,"text":"我跟委員報告齁 剛提到的SOP真的都是有確實有 我以4月20號這個對 4月20號這個案件來講因為會大概現在也進入要調查了齁那我們初步其實我們內部有先了解過齁4月20號那個他本來應該要 他是要連結他應該要一度停車但是他沒有依照SOP一度停車我們有訪問他的 去了解訪問他的那到底怎麼回事那他給我們答案說 他就恍神了"},{"start":423.67,"end":447.845,"text":"恍神那是因為睡眠不足還是是壓力太大倒不是講對他就講說啊大概因為按推的大概就講說是家裡的一些因素造成他的一些恍神後面我們還是會配合應安會可以強加然後才確認那剛部長提到的SOP我們是跟他講就是在這裡"},{"start":448.846,"end":474.795,"text":"你如果有問題應該提出來如果跟你講你還沒有這樣做的話那如果再出事我們真的就是一定要嚴懲這我覺得是最後手段你拿出來官方就變成拉五桿了啦對當然就是陳屬是最後手段那本席要強調就是說要去了解原因從源頭去解決啦那當然就是說有關員工的心理輔導或者是家庭的一些因素可能也要多加關心"},{"start":475.895,"end":493.83,"text":"才會避免一些這樣子的狀況發生另外當然就是說我們公司化之後也要靠多元的一個經營來希望也能夠轉虧為盈我們看到目前我們台鐵推出的觀光列車"},{"start":495.411,"end":520.331,"text":"是頗受好評的嘛那收益應該不錯啦吳代理董事長您的瞭解這幾個都很搶手確實都很搶手那本席在這邊是不是可以建議我們台鐵規劃一下就是每年就是春天就是三月份左右我們二水站這個鐵軌沿線的花旗幕盛開的時候"},{"start":521.131,"end":537.532,"text":"這個景色可以媲美日本的景色非常的漂亮然後也吸引了很多的遊客所以是不是可以明年規劃讓我們的山南號可以行駛經過停靠二水火車站"},{"start":539.254,"end":558.596,"text":"跟委員報告 剛剛提到這些觀光列車有些它有行駛區域性的關係環島之星大概二水這邊沒有問題那以剛剛那個委員所提到的三欄號的部分目前我們現在維吾爾的廠商我據了解他們已經先前排到今年的十月了今年"},{"start":559.136,"end":569.535,"text":"今年的十月都已經排定了所以這個部分我想我們再來跟他協商看看看是不是可以把這部分把它放進來這個我們到再跟這個廠商再協調"},{"start":570.605,"end":592.954,"text":"對 我想應該還有 還可以去因為還有時間嘛 排到十月而已啊 明年 這因為花季是明年三月啦我們來努力 我們來跟他們協調因為我們也希望就是說 結合這樣子的一個亮點然後推銷我們在地的觀光啦因為這個也是要互相結合的是是是好 那謝謝部長跟謝謝吳代理謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":593,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（11時4分）謝謝主席。請主席邀請部長，還有伍代理董事長。"],["主席：陳部長還有伍代董事長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：部長早。因為今天委員會安排的這個議題，就是有關鐵路運營安全事件的檢討，所以本席還是針對臺鐵的營運安全，跟部長還有伍代理董事長進行討論。雖然這都已經是老生常談了，可是我不曉得是不是真的好像談到都麻痺了，我覺得這真的是一個很嚴重的問題。我們看到從去（2024）年12月19號潮州基地發生了新型自強號在檢修的時候撞上止衝擋，一直到今年4月20號，即這個月還發生了進行聯掛作業的時候未停車撞上新自強號。這樣短短不到五個月的時間就發生了7件調車事故，而且這些調車事故都是人為因素。我們再來看一下，一樣，今年1月5號司機員錯認位置，所以導致最後一車沒有進月台，一直到也是這個月份的4月24號，四個月內就發生了7件停車不當事件，這幾件當中還有過站不停3件，而停車不當事件也是人為因素所造成。部長覺得狀況嚴不嚴重？"],["陳部長世凱：就數據上來看，我認為是嚴重的，而且一般民眾也會有不安的感覺，所以這個部分我們要趕快來改善，並且要趕快來做改革的行為。"],["陳委員素月：這樣的事故頻繁，是不是真的好像讓臺鐵的人都覺得見怪不怪了？好像都麻痺了？"],["陳部長世凱：這就是我們擔心的，就是員工、同仁有沒有照SOP進行的這件事，我們接下來會強烈要求，並且對於沒有照SOP執行工作，會做比較嚴厲的懲處，這是一方面。二方面是整體的改革方案，我也已經拜託臺鐵公司在準備，包含號誌的安全要怎麼樣加強，以及針對駕駛員的紀律約束，該怎麼加強，這個部分我們目前整包都在討論，我們希望趕快做改革的期程。"],["陳委員素月：是，我們回想臺鐵可以在前年加速公司化，也是因為臺鐵發生了重大事故之後，在社會的期待跟壓力之下，所以才加速了公司化。當初在公司化的時候，臺鐵自己喊的口號也是臺鐵改革從安全開始，我們加速臺鐵公司化也是希望臺鐵在安全能夠強化並增加民眾的信心，可是超過一年的時間，我們真的喪失信心了，到底要怎樣來落實改革？對於剛剛部長講的，我覺得應該還要再去思考，到底是什麼原因造成司機或者是調度員的人為事故疏失？因為懲處不是唯一的辦法，要了解是什麼原因造成他們發生這樣的疏失，是壓力過大，還是勞力不均等等所造成的結果。我覺得應該從源頭找出原因之後去調整，不然的話，如果一味的說要加強懲處，可能又造成他們更大的壓力了。"],["陳部長世凱：懲處是最後，其實前面該加強的是什麼？是員工的教育訓練、做事情要照SOP。"],["陳委員素月：對，教育訓練很重要。"],["陳部長世凱：目前就每一個案件看起來，很多都是因為員工並沒有照該規定的SOP下去做，所以我們要要求他們必須要照SOP下去做，懲處是最後，如果你真的沒有照SOP，我只好懲處你。前面除了SOP的教育訓練之外，我們也會加強在駕駛員的訓練之外，就是針對駕駛員，因為運安會其實在五、六年前也有要求過，希望在駕駛室裡面有影音的安全輔助系統，我們也在今年度一定會來推進這個進程，一定要做到運安會對我們的要求，這個部分我們一定要做到。目前臺鐵正在研擬整體的改革方案，不只是駕駛室，也不只是教育訓練，或者是SOP的執行跟落實。另外，針對硬體部分的改革，我們目前也正在進行當中。"],["陳委員素月：是，我也有看到新聞報導，就是有關月臺安全門的加強……"],["陳部長世凱：這個也會做。"],["陳委員素月：也都在做。剛剛部長講到SOP要落實，目前有關安全營運各個面向的安全SOP都確實有定好了嗎？有定好這樣的SOP嗎？都有？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實SOP一直都有……"],["陳委員素月：都有。"],["陳部長世凱：現在的問題在於我們的同仁……"],["陳委員素月：有沒有落實。"],["陳部長世凱：沒有依照SOP的規定下去做，這個部分我們要檢討。"],["陳委員素月：沒有按照規定去做？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["陳委員素月：那有沒有去瞭解為什麼沒有按照規定去做？這個是不是要先去找出原因？不然高層、營運的層級定了SOP，結果基層做不到，是做不到，還是不會做？要去瞭解原因。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：是，我跟委員報告，剛剛提到的SOP真的都是有，確實都有……"],["陳委員素月：有，還是事故頻傳。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：我以4月20號這個案件來講，運安會大概現在也介入要調查了，其實初步我們內部有先瞭解過，4月20號那個本來是要連結，應該要一度停車，但是他沒有依照SOP一度停車，我們有訪談他去瞭解到底怎麼回事，他給我們的答案是他就恍神了。"],["陳委員素月：恍神是因為睡眠不足，還是壓力太大？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：倒不是……對，他就講大概是因為家裡的因素造成他的恍神，不過後面我們還是會配合運安會詳加確認。剛剛部長提到SOP我們已經跟他講就是在這裡，如果有問題應該要提出來，如果跟你講，你還不這樣做的話，如果再出事，我們真的就是一定要嚴懲，我覺得最後的手段應該要拿出來……"],["陳委員素月：當然，這是最後的手段。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：不然就變成大家無感了。"],["陳委員素月：對，當然，懲處是最後手段，本席要強調的是，要去瞭解原因，從源頭去解決。對於員工的心理輔導或者家庭因素可能也要多加關心，才會避免這樣的狀況發生。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：是，應該的。"],["陳委員素月：另外，臺鐵公司化之後也要靠多元的經營，希望能夠轉虧為盈。我們看到目前臺鐵推出的觀光列車頗受好評，收益應該不錯，伍代理董事長，您的瞭解？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：這幾個列車都很搶手，確實都很搶手。"],["陳委員素月：很搶手，好。本席在這邊是不是可以建議臺鐵規劃一下，每年春天3月份左右二水站鐵軌沿線花旗木盛開的時候，可以媲美日本的景色，非常地漂亮，也吸引了很多遊客，所以是不是可以規劃明年山嵐號行駛停靠二水火車站？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：跟委員報告，剛剛提到的觀光列車有些有行駛區域性的關係，環島之星大概二水這邊沒有問題，以剛剛委員提到的山嵐號部分，據瞭解目前我們現在委外的廠商已經將行程排到今年的10月了。"],["陳委員素月：今年？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：今年的10月都已經排定了。"],["陳委員素月：那明年還沒排嘛。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：所以這個部分我們再來跟他們協商，看看是不是能把這個部分放進來，我們再跟廠商協調。"],["陳委員素月：我想應該還可以去……因為還有時間，排到10月而已，花季是明年3月。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：我們來努力，我們儘量跟他們協調。"],["陳委員素月：我們也希望結合這樣的亮點來推銷在地的觀光，因為這個也是要互相結合的。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：是。"],["陳委員素月：謝謝部長、謝謝伍代理董事長。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月委員。特別報告，廖先翔委員質詢完畢休息10分鐘。","現在請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160788","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160788","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b94236919c9f806397c868c0ca66b6f3bc7c703d78ea87b1712f882e6f0bca3cc8d690d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:07:54 - 11:17:40","影片長度":"00:09:46","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:07:54+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:17:40+08:00","duration":586,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.22909375,"end":3.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.83159375,"end":7.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.59096875,"end":7.624718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.624718750000001,"end":30.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.43971875,"end":62.080343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.89034375000001,"end":85.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.61659375,"end":116.04659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.60784375,"end":120.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.02909375,"end":121.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.15971875000001,"end":122.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.78409375000001,"end":127.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.05784375,"end":126.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.81284375000001,"end":190.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.53284375,"end":198.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.66659375,"end":202.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.08784375000002,"end":213.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.76971875,"end":214.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.95096875000002,"end":271.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.44846875,"end":282.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.50159375000004,"end":285.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.29846875000004,"end":287.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.33221875000004,"end":286.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.88471875,"end":301.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.47346875,"end":304.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.93721875,"end":328.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.50159375000004,"end":309.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.68284375,"end":310.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.72034375000004,"end":313.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.85534375000003,"end":313.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.66346875,"end":332.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.28721875,"end":335.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.83096875,"end":342.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.96909375,"end":350.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.64721875000004,"end":352.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.25846875,"end":358.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.70909375,"end":359.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.09721875,"end":360.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.18159375000005,"end":360.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.51471875000004,"end":370.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.80846875000003,"end":383.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.13971875000004,"end":386.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.43471875,"end":387.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.88596875,"end":390.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.58596875,"end":391.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.08784375000005,"end":394.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.75409375000004,"end":400.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.74471875,"end":401.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.11159375000005,"end":412.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.35471875,"end":413.95784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.36284375,"end":415.29096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.54409375,"end":421.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.54721875,"end":433.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.07721875000004,"end":433.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.14471875000004,"end":433.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.29659375000006,"end":433.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.43159375000005,"end":433.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.44846875,"end":433.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.29221875,"end":434.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.32596875,"end":435.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.03471875,"end":437.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.67596875000004,"end":436.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.67159375000006,"end":445.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.97409375,"end":452.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.80846875000003,"end":462.86159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.04721875,"end":471.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.92346875000004,"end":490.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.09784375000004,"end":495.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.95346875,"end":497.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.43846875,"end":506.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.09096875000006,"end":509.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.38596875,"end":522.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.56971875,"end":525.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.78846875,"end":529.6359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.32846875,"end":536.8584687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.90471875,"end":541.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.0053437500001,"end":542.0222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.0222187500001,"end":550.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.2578437500001,"end":546.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.46034375,"end":546.5109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.40034375,"end":553.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":553.8515937500001,"end":563.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.69909375,"end":558.3403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.15034375,"end":559.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.6140937499999,"end":561.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.66471875,"end":561.7153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.7153437500001,"end":561.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.96846875,"end":562.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":563.8584687499999,"end":574.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.28284375,"end":581.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.64471875,"end":581.6615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.6615937500001,"end":582.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":586.42034375,"end":587.07846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":0.37,"text":"有請故宮院長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":8.568,"end":29.585,"text":"院長好我們今天來關心一下我們故宮有沒有可能成為我們吸引國外旅客的一個非常重要的景點我們來看一下故宮的人數其實之前是在我們看下一頁我們可以看到就是從108年這個預算決算可以看得出來"},{"start":30.706,"end":52.099,"text":"門票收入嘛 這個當然也反映人數了 108年那個時候是近幾年來是高峰那當然109年 110年 111年是遇到疫情啦 所以人數變少那112年跟113年有回流 可是其實回流的速度還是蠻不夠啦 你看都還沒有離那個108年 我們看決算數這邊都還差非常多"},{"start":56.361,"end":85.002,"text":"所以我不知道114年現在定的預算的門票收入預算目標也沒有定得很高啦那也不知道決算的部分是不是有可能會提高我想問一下這個院長先簡單回答一下現在我們有沒有什麼吸引國內外觀光客的方法簡單講一下然後目前故宮的門票收入是以國內的觀光客為主還是國外觀光客為主"},{"start":88.113,"end":110.66,"text":"這個目前的話就是以南院的話當然就是說還是以國內為主那北院目前的話就是國際跟國內的話大概占一半一半國內多一點點那當然就是說收入的部分的話因為如果過去平均國外七成的話那國外的票價的話350塊的話基本上來講的話他350塊等於超過200兩個150"},{"start":116.201,"end":137.955,"text":"南院是以國內為主,然後北院國外多一點點,是這個意思嗎?對,國外一個人的話,門票收入的話當然可以比國外兩個人,國內兩個人因為台灣現在,外國觀光客來台灣的人數其實是越來越少啦那觀光產業,我們的觀光逆差也是非常的高"},{"start":140.316,"end":159.748,"text":"2023年我們政府訂出來的國外觀光客來台灣的目標是600萬那去年本來一開始訂國外觀光客來台是1200萬後來一直下修啦下修到後來到年底的時候來台的觀光客只有750萬那我看到觀光署有訂定一個目標說今年要掌握印度跟紐澳市場"},{"start":161.09,"end":179.569,"text":"我一直在想說故宮理論上來講如果外國功課要來嘛我們應該要有一個很有吸引的景點讓他們來就如同為什麼台灣人很喜歡去日本因為日本有很多景點大家覺得很有趣像對歷史有興趣的人會去那個幕府時代的遊程他們去看什麼德川家康或什麼這一種的遊程"},{"start":180.33,"end":197.548,"text":"然後喜歡漫畫動漫的有喜歡灌籃高手的就會去看灌籃高手的一些景點嘛那當然喜歡中國歷史啊文物的你當然可以來台灣看故宮啊所以我們在故宮的對外行銷我認為應該要加強而且應該要用故事行銷就像我今天看新聞"},{"start":198.749,"end":212.965,"text":"我先看新聞那個故宮現在在南苑展出朱元璋的像嘛那你們的宣傳就說朱元璋的像展示出來之後發現跟大家傳統民間理解不一樣民間都覺得他是臭頭皇帝啦然後結果他不是"},{"start":213.846,"end":236.272,"text":"但是如果人家根本不認識朱元璋那他有湊頭沒湊頭根本沒有人在乎啊所以理論上應該先有一個故事然後再去推廣這些文物大家讀起來來看起來才會覺得比較有感覺啊而且每一個文物或每一幅畫都是一個故事所以我認為故宮應該要加強對外宣導啦那我去看了"},{"start":236.972,"end":259.098,"text":"你們的這份業務報告其實對於故宮怎麼在國外宣傳然後吸引國外觀光客來台這個事情其實做的是非常少大部分都是說我們去外面策展那這個也很好這就是把我們台灣的一些文化或是形象推廣到國外去可是這跟吸引他們來台灣觀光是兩回事"},{"start":259.958,"end":284.722,"text":"所以推廣觀光這一塊其實我建議故宮應該也是可以扮演一定的角色那你們現在這個報告裡面我看來看去就幾個啦一個就是這個故宮好客說會要對日本跟韓國的國際旅的青年規劃一些遊程嘛 路線嘛然後拍一些影片嘛 應該就這樣嘛那我不知道院長你覺得這個效果怎麼樣"},{"start":286.728,"end":310.554,"text":"你自己覺得效果好嗎盡量努力因為過去有新聞局的時代新聞局的海外宣傳的話基本上來講的話故宮絕對是主角可是因為新聞局裁撤之後的話這一塊就沒有了現在觀光署現在新聞局裁撤之後有相關的機關嗎沒有去承接它的業務嗎觀光署它宣傳的都是它的國家風景區所以故宮這一塊在海外就不見了"},{"start":310.774,"end":330.28,"text":"那你要跟觀光署講嘛所以我們就有跟觀光署跟外交部去談這個事情那外交部今年他們也會做一個歐洲文化年的一個活動配合那個故宮的捷克跟企劃國然後做一個共同整體的一個行銷所以你剛剛的意思是說你之前跟觀光署講觀光署比較重視國內國外去還是其他"},{"start":332.481,"end":352.131,"text":"跟觀光署長約五月九號現在不是說有一個行政院層級的觀光的政策委員會嗎你可以在那個委員會提出來嗎那個我們那個副院長是我說我跟那個署長我們約了下個禮拜九號還是哪一天我講的是針對國外觀光客喔"},{"start":353.382,"end":369.495,"text":"所以你現在講起來我看觀光署長也不是非常重視國外觀光客來台灣這件事情嗎他當然重視啊因為這麼多國寶的這麼好行銷的景點結果他也不認為說可以拿來吸引國外觀光客這剛剛院長你無意間透露的啊那沒關係啊這個"},{"start":370.916,"end":393.477,"text":"因為今天觀眾水沒來啦所以我們在這邊討論他也聽不到但是我覺得針對你們幾項你們可以做的事情我覺得還可以再有更好的空間比如說就是故宮好客拍這些影片這個我特別去看了有一個非常奇怪的現象這有幾支影片都同一個內容但標題不一樣"},{"start":394.838,"end":421.764,"text":"那那個影片如果是標題是中文字比較多的它點閱率比較高像第一支2.7萬但是你看喔如果是第三支內容一模一樣喔但只不過它的標題感覺中文跟日文是一半一半的那點閱只有42次然後下面那支標題也一樣都是韓文的它的點閱只有882次我不知道說這是怎麼回事啦是不是很多人其實是台灣人在看啊"},{"start":422.591,"end":433.446,"text":"那如果是台灣人在看的話那你就達不到吸引國外觀光客的效果嘛那所以這個部分啦我覺得這個部分要再加強啦好不好"},{"start":434.849,"end":457.47,"text":"好 這個部分的話我請同仁來check一下因為你們這個是我看是少數幾個對國外觀光客宣傳的做法啦但是感覺效果上面我覺得還可以再加強因為UQ的點列量的話現在是68,677可是到底是國內點國外點的話對 因為我剛剛秀同一支嘛同一支你自己看嘛我都秀出來給你看嘛你們再去你們再看看有沒有辦法改進啦"},{"start":458.191,"end":473.511,"text":"然後再來還有在你們的報告的第28頁也有提到一些行銷推廣弘揚故宮品牌的做法總共有4點那其中第一點第三點都是南部縣區啦第二點只是在"},{"start":474.272,"end":496.541,"text":"我們的機場航廈旅遊中心放一些活動資訊那等於是觀光客已經來台灣了嘛來台灣之後去看說有顧光好像可以去這並不是吸引他們來的主要的做法嘛那第四點說有一個台灣好玩卡那這個部分我去看了那個也就是來台灣之後可以拿到一些折扣那都不是主要吸引人家來的原因跟訴求"},{"start":497.481,"end":509.001,"text":"所以可不可以加強國外的宣傳好不好讓有一些國外觀光客他可以為了故宮來到台灣然後讓我們的觀光可以做得更好院長願不願意往這方向去努力啊"},{"start":509.437,"end":536.725,"text":"各位報告我們去年的話有做一個全球文化戰略這故宮國際交流推廣的一個方案那這個方案的話我們會再進行因為今年的話因為那個方案我在報告裡面沒看到可不可以提供資料給我們可以可以好不好詳細一點我們再下次如果有機會質詢我們再來跟您就教然後最後問一個問題啦就是今年是故宮100週年怨氣嘛有沒有發行紀念幣啊"},{"start":538.232,"end":550.719,"text":"有紀念幣跟台灣銀行跟中央詔幣廠的合作喔 那個紀念幣那個已經公佈了嗎那個還沒因為網路上好像沒有查到下個月下個月就會公佈紀念幣那大概是什麼造型啊什麼造型"},{"start":553.871,"end":582.051,"text":"以那個天球瓶為主要的一個造型你什麼?天球瓶,我們故宮文物元素所以這些商品大概下個月委員都可以看得到大概發多少份?我們總共有三件商品但是實際的份數要看台灣銀行跟中央招品廠總共提出來的一個份數那到時候你們會怎麼運用這個紀念幣來做行銷?會放在我們故宮的一個網路商城還有故宮的一個商店裡面都會做行銷OK,好,謝謝"},{"start":586.425,"end":587.056,"text":"謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":514,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時7分）主席，要請故宮院長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請故宮院長備詢，謝謝。"],["蕭院長宗煌：葉委員早。"],["葉委員元之：院長好。我今天來關心的是故宮有沒有可能成為我們吸引國外旅客的一個非常重要的景點。我們來看一下故宮的人數，從預算、決算可以看得出來門票收入，這個當然也反映人數，108年是近幾年來的高峰，當然109年、110年、111年是遇到疫情，所以人數變少；112年跟113年有回流，可是回流的速度還是不夠，我們看決算數離108年都還差非常多，所以114年門票收入的預算目標也沒有訂得很高，也不知道決算的部分是不是有可能會提高？我想問一下院長，你先簡單回答，現在我們有沒有什麼吸引國內外觀光客的方法？簡單講一下。然後目前故宮的門票收入是以國內觀光客為主，還是國外觀光客為主？"],["蕭院長宗煌：目前南院當然還是以國內為主，北院目前國際跟國內的比例大概是一半、一半，國內多一點點。至於收入的部分，如果過去國外平均是七成的話，因為國外人士票價是350元，350元等於超過2個150元……"],["葉委員元之：所以南院是以國內為主，然後北院是國外多一點點，是這個意思嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，國外一個人的門票收入，當然可以抵國內兩個人。"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，院長，是這樣，因為現在外國觀光客來臺灣的人數其實越來越少，而觀光逆差也是非常的高，2023年我們政府訂出的國外觀光客來臺灣的目標是600萬，去年本來一開始訂國外觀光客來臺是1,200萬，後來一直下修，到年底的時候，來臺的觀光客只有750萬。我看到觀光署有訂定一個目標是今年要掌握印度跟紐澳市場，我一直在想說，關於故宮，理論上來講，如果外國觀光客要來，我們應該要有一個很有吸引力的景點讓他們來，就如同為什麼臺灣人很喜歡去日本，因為日本有很多景點，大家覺得很有趣，對歷史有興趣的人會去幕府時代的遊程，他們會去看德川家康這一種的遊程，然後喜歡漫畫、動漫、喜歡灌籃高手的就會去看灌籃高手的一些景點，而喜歡中國歷史、文物的人當然可以來臺灣看故宮。","我認為應該要加強故宮的對外行銷，而且應該要用故事行銷，就像我今天看新聞，故宮現在在南院展出朱元璋的像，你們的宣傳就說朱元璋的像展示出來之後發現，跟大家傳統民間的理解不一樣，民間都覺得他是臭頭皇帝，結果他不是。如果人家根本不認識朱元璋，他有臭頭、沒臭頭根本沒有人在乎，所以理論上應該要先有一個故事，再去推廣這些文物，大家讀起來、看起來才會比較有感覺，而且每一個文物或每一幅畫都是一個故事，所以我認為故宮應該要加強對外宣導。","我去看了你們這份業務報告，對於故宮怎麼在國外宣傳，吸引國外觀光客來臺這個事情其實做得非常少，大部分都是說我們去外面策展，這個也很好，就是把臺灣的一些文化或是形象推廣到國外，可是這跟吸引他們來臺灣觀光是兩回事，所以推廣觀光這一塊，我建議故宮也是可以扮演一定的角色。你們現在這個報告裡面，我看來看去就幾個，一個就是「故宮好客」，說要對日本跟韓國的國際青年規劃一些遊程路線、拍一些影片，應該就是這樣，我不知道院長你覺得效果怎麼樣？你自己覺得效果好嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：盡量努力，因為過去有新聞局的時代，新聞局的海外宣傳基本上來講，故宮絕對是主角，可是新聞局裁撤之後，這一塊就沒有了……"],["葉委員元之：新聞局裁撤之後有相關機關去承接它的業務。"],["蕭院長宗煌：沒有，觀光署宣傳的都是它的國家風景區，所以故宮這一塊在海外就不見了。"],["葉委員元之：那你要跟觀光署講。"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，我們就有跟觀光署、外交部去談這個事情，外交部今年也會做一個歐洲文化年的活動，配合故宮去捷克和法國做一個共同整體的行銷。"],["葉委員元之：所以你剛剛的意思是說，你之前跟觀光署講，觀光署比較重視國內，國外宣傳這一塊……"],["蕭院長宗煌：我跟觀光署長約5月9號……"],["葉委員元之：現在不是說有一個行政院層級的觀光政策委員會嗎？你可以在那個委員會提出來。"],["蕭院長宗煌：有，是副院長室，我說我跟觀光署長約了下個禮拜9號還是哪一天見面……"],["葉委員元之：我講的是針對國外觀光客，所以你現在講起來，我看觀光署長也不是非常重視國外觀光客來臺灣這件事情。"],["蕭院長宗煌：他當然重視，因為……"],["葉委員元之：故宮有這麼多國寶。是這麼好行銷的景點，結果他也不認為可以拿來吸引國外觀光客，這是剛剛院長無意間透露的。沒關係，因為今天觀光署沒來，所以我們在這邊討論，他也聽不到，但是針對幾項你們可以做的事情，我覺得還可以再有更好的空間。比如說「故宮好客」拍這些影片，我特別去看，有一個非常奇怪的現象，有幾支影片都是同一個內容，但標題不一樣，如果影片標題是中文字比較多的，點閱率比較高，像第一支2.7萬，但是你看第三支，內容一模一樣，只不過它的標題是中文跟日文一半一半的，點閱只有42次，下面那一支標題也一樣，但都是韓文，點閱只有882次，我不知道這是怎麼回事，是不是很多其實是臺灣人在看？如果是臺灣人在看，就達不到吸引國外觀光客的效果，所以我覺得這個部分要再加強，好不好？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，這個部分的話，我請同仁來check一下。"],["葉委員元之：我看這是少數幾個對國外觀光客宣傳的作法，但是感覺在效果上面還可以再加強。"],["蕭院長宗煌：YouTube點閱量現在是6萬8,677次，可是到底是國內點或國外點……"],["葉委員元之：對，因為我剛剛說的同一支，你自己看，我都秀出來給你看，你們再看看有沒有辦法改進。","再來，在報告第28頁你們也有提到一些行銷推廣弘揚故宮品牌的作法，總共有四點，其中第一點、第三點都是南部院區，第二點只是在我們的機場航廈、旅遊中心放一些活動資訊，等於是觀光客已經來臺灣了，來臺灣之後看到有故宮好像可以去，但這並不是吸引他們來的主要作法。第四點則是有一個臺灣好玩卡，這個部分我去看了，也就是來臺灣之後可以拿到一些折扣，都不是主要吸引人家來的原因跟訴求，所以可不可以加強國外的宣傳？好不好？應該讓一些國外觀光客可以為了故宮來臺灣，讓我們的觀光可以做得更好，院長願不願意往這方向去努力？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，我們去年有做一個全球文化戰略，就是故宮國際交流推廣的一個方案，就這個方案，我們會再精進，因為今年的部分我們要再修正。"],["葉委員元之：我在報告裡面沒看到那個方案，可不可以提供資料給我們？好不好？"],["蕭院長宗煌：可以、可以，今年都還會再精進。"],["葉委員元之：詳細一點，下次如果有機會質詢，我們再來跟你就教。最後我問一個問題，今年是故宮100週年院慶，有沒有發行紀念幣？"],["蕭院長宗煌：有紀念幣，臺灣銀行跟中央造幣廠合作。"],["葉委員元之：紀念幣已經公布了嗎？還沒？因為網路上好像沒有查到。"],["蕭院長宗煌：下個月。"],["葉委員元之：下個月就會公布紀念幣，大概是什麼造型？"],["王處長耀鋒：以天球瓶為主要的造型。"],["葉委員元之：以什麼？"],["王處長耀鋒：天球瓶──故宮文物元素，所以這些商品大概在下個月委員都可以看得到，我們會主動提供。"],["葉委員元之：大概發多少份？"],["王處長耀鋒：我們總共有三件商品，但是實際的份數要看臺灣銀行跟中央造幣廠提出來的份數。"],["葉委員元之：到時候你們會怎麼運用紀念幣來行銷？"],["王處長耀鋒：會放在故宮的網路商城，還有故宮的商店裡面，都會行銷。"],["葉委員元之：OK！好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員質詢，院長請回座，相關官員請回座。","接下來有請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-9","speakers":["葛如鈞","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","林宜瑾","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","范雲","郭昱晴","陳冠廷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林沛祥","張雅琳"],"page_start":315,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00007"}}},{"id":"160787","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160787","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423690cec3567f0b7c1b43c0ba1d923b4b8dbd78ea87b1712f882f6c8e88a0e872c475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:01:53 - 11:16:48","影片長度":"00:14:55","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:01:53+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:16:48+08:00","duration":895,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.15284375,"end":5.414093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.59284375,"end":26.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.74034375,"end":24.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.118468750000005,"end":34.540343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.19846875,"end":39.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.024718750000005,"end":41.408468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.82596875,"end":47.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.635343750000004,"end":50.369093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.65596875,"end":59.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.78534375,"end":61.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.40534375,"end":61.945343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.31659375,"end":65.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.59909375,"end":63.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.01221875,"end":70.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.92721875000001,"end":70.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.31534375000001,"end":70.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.02409375,"end":72.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.55971875,"end":72.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.76221875,"end":74.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.36534375000001,"end":77.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.38159375000001,"end":83.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.72659375,"end":87.00471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.75596875000001,"end":88.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.98346875,"end":89.55284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.92409375000001,"end":92.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.37096875,"end":96.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.69096875000001,"end":102.56346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.98534375000001,"end":108.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.64284375000001,"end":110.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.71409375,"end":113.56596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.97096875000001,"end":114.40971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.96659375,"end":122.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.35784375,"end":133.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.69784375,"end":136.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.15721875,"end":142.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.81034375000002,"end":146.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.30784375000002,"end":146.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.40471875,"end":146.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.67471875,"end":151.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.71596875,"end":152.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.73284375,"end":155.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.75346875,"end":167.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.44846875000002,"end":164.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.05971875,"end":174.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.38034375,"end":169.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.85596875000002,"end":185.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.93159375000002,"end":177.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.53471875000002,"end":178.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.41221875000002,"end":179.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.74534375000002,"end":181.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.22534375,"end":190.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.60034375,"end":190.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.88721875000002,"end":191.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.47784375,"end":191.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.71409375000002,"end":195.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.43909375,"end":196.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.56971875000002,"end":197.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.00409375,"end":200.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.24846875,"end":201.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.15971875000002,"end":203.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.23971875,"end":203.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.77534375000002,"end":205.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.58096875,"end":207.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.00659375,"end":211.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.55909375000002,"end":212.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.12846875000002,"end":213.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.46159375000002,"end":215.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.38909375,"end":222.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.01721875,"end":223.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.02096875,"end":226.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.78034375000001,"end":227.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.34971875000002,"end":229.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.58159375000002,"end":230.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.18471875,"end":231.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.15909375,"end":236.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.71534375000002,"end":238.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.91346875000002,"end":239.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.97659375,"end":240.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.07784375000003,"end":242.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.57096875000002,"end":244.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.17409375000003,"end":246.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.73471875,"end":254.01659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.45534375000003,"end":255.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.51846875,"end":255.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.02471875000003,"end":259.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.01596875,"end":258.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.20159375000003,"end":258.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.92284375,"end":261.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.73659375,"end":265.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.99784375,"end":268.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.22534375000004,"end":268.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.08596875,"end":274.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.31284375,"end":275.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.42659375,"end":277.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.96221875000003,"end":285.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.37034375,"end":285.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.48846875000004,"end":285.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.69096875,"end":285.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.96096875,"end":286.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.77096875,"end":315.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.94784375,"end":317.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.88846875,"end":318.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.64784375,"end":318.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.50846875,"end":320.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.89221875000004,"end":324.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.98846875000004,"end":326.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.22034375000004,"end":328.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.03846875000005,"end":330.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.48971875,"end":331.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.92409375,"end":334.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.49346875000003,"end":334.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.37096875000003,"end":337.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.95284375,"end":344.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.12909375000004,"end":346.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.55471875,"end":348.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.52909375,"end":351.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.30096875000004,"end":352.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.91659375,"end":356.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.80221875,"end":360.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.86909375000005,"end":364.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.25659375000004,"end":371.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.05721875,"end":372.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.13284375,"end":374.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.36471875,"end":375.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.87096875000003,"end":376.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.28846875000005,"end":378.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.66784375000003,"end":381.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.74346875000003,"end":382.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.07659375000003,"end":385.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.82721875000004,"end":387.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.29534375000003,"end":388.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.67909375000005,"end":390.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.07534375,"end":392.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.55159375000005,"end":395.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.73284375000003,"end":396.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.08284375000005,"end":398.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.04034375000003,"end":400.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.11596875000004,"end":401.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.66846875000005,"end":403.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.54159375,"end":404.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.55409375000005,"end":408.01784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.18659375000004,"end":409.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.02159375,"end":411.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.62909375000004,"end":413.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.41784375000003,"end":414.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.29096875000005,"end":418.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.59846875000005,"end":423.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.72409375,"end":424.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.97721875,"end":425.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.28096875,"end":425.34846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.39909375,"end":425.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.46659375,"end":426.25971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.25971875000005,"end":426.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.56346875,"end":430.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.27159375,"end":442.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.72971875,"end":460.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.25846875,"end":465.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.96659375,"end":484.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.22096875000005,"end":487.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.51596875,"end":489.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.16534375000003,"end":492.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.96659375,"end":500.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.68346875000003,"end":496.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.96596875000006,"end":497.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.19346875,"end":502.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.15096875,"end":504.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.26846875,"end":509.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.84159375,"end":512.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.0859687500001,"end":512.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.3897187499999,"end":519.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.5447187500001,"end":523.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.9072187500001,"end":522.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.37534375,"end":525.3159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.8390937500001,"end":529.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.4965937500001,"end":530.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.6228437500001,"end":533.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.11221875,"end":534.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.1497187500001,"end":538.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.71034375,"end":540.6215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.6384687500001,"end":542.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.81534375,"end":543.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.94159375,"end":546.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.9328437500001,"end":548.2490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.70471875,"end":550.6453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.7297187500001,"end":551.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.36659375,"end":557.2265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.65346875,"end":553.8178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.25596875,"end":562.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.32284375,"end":564.3647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.6515937500001,"end":581.8640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.06659375,"end":583.7878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.60659375,"end":582.7922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.5178437500001,"end":587.4834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.23846875,"end":590.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.5209687500001,"end":595.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.4440937500001,"end":598.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.35096875,"end":598.8234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.5703437500001,"end":598.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.8234687500001,"end":599.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.07659375,"end":602.0803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.3672187500001,"end":604.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.6115937500001,"end":605.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.2865937500001,"end":608.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.33659375,"end":611.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.60659375,"end":609.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.2434687500001,"end":616.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.3447187500001,"end":611.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.8584687499999,"end":619.2084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.6640937500001,"end":621.1828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.97596875,"end":625.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.7222187500001,"end":628.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.43909375,"end":629.8059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.0590937500001,"end":641.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.0403437500001,"end":642.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.90096875,"end":643.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.33534375,"end":649.5834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.0053437500001,"end":650.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.1359687500001,"end":653.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.59971875,"end":655.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.04659375,"end":657.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.4934687500001,"end":661.5815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.95284375,"end":662.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.58971875,"end":665.9522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.64034375,"end":665.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.9522187500002,"end":666.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.0365937500001,"end":667.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":667.01534375,"end":667.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":667.28534375,"end":668.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.5678437500001,"end":674.7609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.1997187500001,"end":675.4697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.5203437499999,"end":686.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.26534375,"end":691.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.8047187500001,"end":694.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":694.09971875,"end":699.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":695.38221875,"end":697.5590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":700.00596875,"end":701.2547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":701.72721875,"end":703.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":701.74409375,"end":702.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":704.25846875,"end":708.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":708.9665937500001,"end":711.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":711.97034375,"end":713.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":714.24846875,"end":715.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":715.1428437500001,"end":715.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":717.04971875,"end":717.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.41659375,"end":720.9309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":721.0659687500001,"end":725.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.01034375,"end":727.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.4953437500001,"end":729.2334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":729.38534375,"end":732.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.79409375,"end":737.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":737.99159375,"end":739.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":739.52721875,"end":741.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":741.80534375,"end":744.3872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":744.6740937500001,"end":745.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":745.90596875,"end":747.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":747.6440937500001,"end":748.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":748.7240937500001,"end":750.1922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":750.1922187499999,"end":750.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":750.4453437500001,"end":750.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":750.96846875,"end":752.0147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":751.5759687500001,"end":754.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":754.3603437500001,"end":763.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":763.20284375,"end":769.8347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":769.8347187500001,"end":770.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":770.74596875,"end":774.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":775.01534375,"end":775.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":775.80846875,"end":777.7490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":778.05284375,"end":779.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":778.10346875,"end":778.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":780.2465937500001,"end":782.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":780.85409375,"end":781.2590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":782.4909687500001,"end":785.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":785.6297187499999,"end":789.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":790.6753437500001,"end":796.8347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":791.68784375,"end":793.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":797.2734687500001,"end":798.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":799.2309687500001,"end":803.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":803.9897187500001,"end":805.1709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":805.8290937500001,"end":807.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":807.01034375,"end":807.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":807.31409375,"end":811.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":811.24596875,"end":811.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":811.29659375,"end":812.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":811.3134687500001,"end":817.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":818.01284375,"end":820.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":821.25284375,"end":825.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":825.9778437500001,"end":829.6397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":829.7409687500001,"end":830.8884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":830.8884687500001,"end":830.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":830.92221875,"end":834.6853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":832.94721875,"end":841.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":836.0690937500001,"end":836.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":838.56659375,"end":844.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":843.5109687500001,"end":847.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":846.0759687500001,"end":846.5990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":846.97034375,"end":851.9990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":852.04971875,"end":852.1172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":852.1172187500001,"end":857.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":852.5053437500001,"end":853.9397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":857.63534375,"end":859.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":857.7534687500001,"end":857.7703437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":857.83784375,"end":858.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":858.96846875,"end":865.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":865.39784375,"end":868.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":869.2622187500001,"end":870.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":870.73034375,"end":872.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":872.28284375,"end":872.6203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":872.5359687500002,"end":873.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":874.1897187500001,"end":876.8897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":877.32846875,"end":880.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":881.73284375,"end":882.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":883.53846875,"end":886.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":886.10346875,"end":888.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":888.76971875,"end":889.2084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":889.5290937500001,"end":895.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":895.0303437500002,"end":895.21596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.203,"end":3.683,"text":"好來請保證慢慢喝"},{"start":35.224,"end":60.953,"text":"我們現在繼續把同基層同聲明的農民倒三天我今天要跟你討論的是漁電共生的大漏洞我在三個地方問你這個漁電共生的事情漁電共生這段時間出了很多問題包括下面被埋的那個什麼爐渣啦廢土啦然後慢慢要去做一些改善可是我發現更多的陳情有一個大的問題就是那個覆蓋力的問題"},{"start":62.369,"end":76.68,"text":"我三位都有問你嘛,你做了這個回答嘛,你看一下那個字幕,你說漁電共生的基本上光電的覆蓋率是40%嘛,然後包括漁種你都有講嘛,我現在很明確的,這個40%應該是漁溫的40%對不對?他是設施容許裡面那個土地的那個40%"},{"start":85.055,"end":110.809,"text":"這個容許它身體容許面積的這個分母到底是餘溫的40還是這個所有土地的40不是它土地它是容許是針對土地面積它這塊土地面積的容許那那塊土地面積它可能只有一小部分做餘溫喔那不一定所以我們的容許是用土地的面積的40%現在通通的問題就是很多地方餘溫上面蓋了滿滿的這個光電板嘛"},{"start":114.131,"end":141.579,"text":"對不對啊現在就是 現在市民說這樣魚子吃不完嘛 對不對那你3月26號你給我的答詢是來來保定來來你看你 20百個你的答詢是這樣子你說要有陽光照射嘛 對不對所以你說有40%的覆蓋那你60%可以陽光可以進來嘛 對不對可是現在問題出在什麼地方現在全國很多地方出現了一個很大的問題是餘溫百分之百都被蓋滿了"},{"start":142.847,"end":151.82,"text":"那就沒有達到你剛剛講的這個你前面會跟他說的40的40的覆蓋60可以射進來對不對那你如果百分之百把餘溫全部都蓋住了"},{"start":152.842,"end":170.94,"text":"哇 那就是零啦 對不對 我要跟你們報告我們的漁電工程有兩類一類是室內養殖型的它的覆蓋率跟我剛才講的40%是戶外的部分所以這兩個是不大一樣的我們先來談戶外 我們今天就鎖定戶外戶外就是應該 戶外其實剛才你說的就是 移溫"},{"start":174.924,"end":203.82,"text":"宜溫不是百分之百蓋住嘛對不對至少是百分之四十嘛對不對這樣百分之六十有陽光可以射進來嘛其實你根據的這是有科學根據嘛你根據的就是水勢守的這個2018年的這個漁電共生的模擬試驗嘛對不對所以你是有根據的嘛可是現在問題來了來我給你看這個圖來你看這個來那個你看左邊這就是宜溫啦對不對大到八八八"},{"start":204.91,"end":215.673,"text":"這是幾%這是40%嗎部長我甚至調那個空照圖給你看右邊這個就是宜溫電瓶全部都是光電板所以跟部長還有你水刺手當初做的這個實驗是不一樣的喔對不對我再給你看下一張這是一個暗場來下一張這個暗場也一樣"},{"start":233.408,"end":261.416,"text":"這兩個案場都是在疑問上面蓋了百分之百那這個違反了違反你的理解也違反了水事所當初做的這個結論這個就是我自己的鄉親啊他們一直在陳情啊其實保定你也很盡心盡力啦我聽各位問你的時候有一家不是被球場的異議對不對後來我們去努力讓他可以和解嘛現在在和解中這個就是我剛剛講的其中一個案場"},{"start":263.763,"end":284.866,"text":"他被光電裂折就是這樣搞搞到根本就沒辦法沒辦法再種魚電有沒有生出來不曉得可是魚死了嘛魚電共生結果魚還不曉得有沒有這個魚就死掉了這個就是現在鄉村裡面整個台南、嘉義很多地方碰到的這個悲劇好那你有努力了你這個案子有要他們去和解了可是這個問題沒有解開"},{"start":285.467,"end":303.92,"text":"不過我想第一個我必須誠實跟委員說明用這樣的圖我沒辦法判斷因為在有一些土地它是地層下陷於不利耕作區它也許也有從事養殖的行為但是那時候的容許跟你地面的或是室內的是不一樣的規範"},{"start":304.861,"end":328.255,"text":"那以農業部的立場,我們一定是要先確保養殖能夠成功也是事實,然後光電才是加值的部分那如果有不法的部分,我想都應該去查處啦,對柏定,我剛跟你看的就是,左邊這個是死景圖嘛,這個是空照圖嘛我進一步再把這個地幕啊,調出來給你看,來下一張看下一張,你看"},{"start":333.11,"end":352.617,"text":"這是整個暗場這是台灣第一個魚店共生的第一個模範區示範區也是第一個暗場結果有兩個場來陳情碰到一個大的問題右下角這個就是上次我一直問你的你把前面都蓋住了魚都死掉就沒辦法養殖啊所以漁民就抗議啊"},{"start":354.056,"end":372.87,"text":"結果開發商、供電商怎麼說我就求償你一億那我們有努力了嘛現在已經和解了可是和解還是要現在進行試喔左上角那個更可憐我現在跟你講左上角你看上面畫的供電板這就百分之百都覆蓋了啦你從地幕我剛剛講空照圖這個從地幕都很清楚左上角發生了什麼事情移民工"},{"start":375.424,"end":391.99,"text":"你台元立國營事業啊你還開口啊我就同意你來做光電啊結果轉了好幾手弄到後來台泥變成台泥光電去了他左上角蓋出什麼也是百分之百結果那個農夫一直抗爭到後來就腦中風了兒子把工作丟下回去照顧爸爸到現在還在抗爭這兩個都是很大悲劇一個被酋長以疫"},{"start":404.588,"end":423.804,"text":"一個家裡面生活陷入困頓不只沒辦法繼續在養魚爸爸腦中風 現在躺在家裡兒子現在在抗爭喔就在懲刑 那原因就是初老剛剛跟你討論的因為你們在法令的這個解釋上面讓光電業者去餘溫上面蓋了百分之百的"},{"start":424.755,"end":442.2,"text":"光電板那這個要不要處理不過我還是跟委員說明您這樣我沒辦法判斷因為光電的覆蓋率會因為你是農變的農地變更是一件事情然後你做室內的或是做戶外的那我在這邊有個數據可以跟委員報告就是我們也要求了"},{"start":443.421,"end":465.118,"text":"各縣市有做光電廠去做盤查去做清查有沒有不合法的地方有沒有不養魚的現在已經清查了122場那其中完全合格的大概是將近37場到40場之間所以表示還有很大部分是不符合相關的規範正在改善中啦所以"},{"start":466.059,"end":492.558,"text":"我也必須認同就是說的確有一些不合法的這項的光電板但是我們會要求地方政府去做一個有效的查核甚至於我們也希望說如果他沒有真正從事農業的漁業經營的話他就應該斷電啦就是讓他的電不再輸送啦如果讓他電繼續輸送他不斷的在改善那你就沒完沒了啦就是我想我們農業部的立場是這樣子"},{"start":492.978,"end":518.945,"text":"我聽你很棒 你也承認說有部分是有問題嘛那你要去把它清查清楚至少這兩個地方要去清查清楚對 這個我想我們後續如果有資訊我們可以了解如果你去看了 確定是老蔣我已經給你很明確了空照圖也給你 地幕圖也給你 實景都給你的好 那你要更明確請最近就趕快去看這兩個地方好不好是那如果是確定你確認是我剛剛講的百分之百上面移運都蓋了這個百分之百的光電板那這個就不行囉"},{"start":520.225,"end":530.792,"text":"如果它是地面型的,它絕對不行啊對啦,室外又是地面型的嘛,就是魚死地面嘛來,再看另外一個,剛才這兩個是家機,這張是台南的,來,看一看一樣,地面大到密密麻麻,全部都是光電板,也是百分之百你是農業專家,你覺得這個光電發電之後,會比較容易起火嗎?"},{"start":545.123,"end":553.651,"text":"這個有餘電共生嗎?還是變生了餘死掉了?這個你的專業判斷,這也太奇妙了我如果全都看這張圖的話,我覺得下面是沒有什麼養啊"},{"start":558.266,"end":584.43,"text":"阿他怎麼可以發電可以通過你們這個許可還繼續在發電不是 我要跟委員報告齁我們農業部是針對他的經營計畫書裡面我們做容許那後續都是地方政府在處理的那我們當然會有一些指引跟規範去要求所以像類似有這樣的一個案場的時候我們都會要求地方政府要去嚴查這個才能夠確保 我在這看這用常識不要說你專業常識看就知道 地面都扶貧阿"},{"start":589.261,"end":616.673,"text":"都是扶貧啊這個裡面如果有魚的話,你就把那個扶貧吃掉嘛跟蜜蜜媽媽都是扶貧,表示你會比較沒魚嘛啊第一個是含養量一定很高嘛對不對?是這個根本沒辦法養魚啊所以它不叫魚墊公生它叫墊生的魚死掉了是不是?那這個,好部長所以我們今天有結論喔我至少講的,這個地步我會給你至少這三個地方你要去看過好不好?好那我做明確的,明確的這個三個具體的要求來,我們看起來應該有共識啦,第一類來,保定來"},{"start":617.912,"end":643.197,"text":"你要明確去界定 餘電共生的這個覆蓋率現在光電一直跟你講 那個40%是全部的土地不是餘溫其實我們今天講的很清楚的 餘溫覆蓋不能超過40要有60讓陽光可以射進來 要不然就死掉了 不叫餘電共生覆蓋率 以餘溫為依據的話 不能夠超過40%要明定下來 不是以整體的暗場做計算這跌跌 對不對 反正這跌跌 做得到嗎"},{"start":644.66,"end":661.27,"text":"我們本來就這樣規定剛剛講的那個看的那個都是違規嘛不只要去看要去處理然後這個法令一定是要這個規定一定要去確定好第二個你統計一下一直到現場去喔統計一下現在有多少餘溫本身覆蓋率超過40%的一個月夠不夠"},{"start":663.649,"end":674.665,"text":"一個月給我一份報告,就是你持續去查嘛,我那三個地方都給你我先跟委員報告,就是我們要做這件事情我們一定發文給地方政府,地方政府去查明以後回報啊"},{"start":675.685,"end":703.726,"text":"那這個部分我們會盡量在一個月能夠給委員一個答覆但是有時候會牽扯到地方政務的查核的時間所以我現在不敢保證說一定一個月他們一定給我因為有時候地方政務不給的時候我們也沒辦法你今天就會發函就對了啦 盡快我想今天 我們這個禮拜好不好這個禮拜我們發函給地方政務就要去查明這件事情很重要因為漁電共生是你的重要政策嘛"},{"start":704.306,"end":715.765,"text":"阿現在一定又加速在推動 現在核電5月17號又停了一定又推得更急阿更急你已經發現有一些是違反你的規定了阿違反規定已經出現那麼多悲劇了我剛才說過 那真的是"},{"start":717.113,"end":736.087,"text":"一個農夫,好好的本來過日子,結果聽信你國營事業、台研綠能,弄到後來腦中風,兒子還遲了公交回來照顧爸爸,現在繼續抗爭,趕快看,趕快幫他們解決問題,好不好?第三個,第三個就是我要講,要怎麼去幫忙呢?對於現行你去查過後,你有發現是超過40%的,"},{"start":738.375,"end":747.786,"text":"這個不合規定了嘛其實養不活就不是餘電共生了嘛可是你在外面提一個改善的計畫的時候你要原理這些移民現在是受害者 對不對"},{"start":749.566,"end":769.599,"text":"不見得喔 不見得是受害者各式各樣 可是像我剛才說的那兩個都是嘛因為我現在沒辦法判斷喔因為漁電共生 一定是光電業者要不然就租地 然後由漁民負責養有的是什麼 純粹是由光電業者養所以它樣態非常複雜所以我現在沒辦法判斷說一定是漁民受害"},{"start":770.799,"end":789.68,"text":"部長我們把樣態集中一下我今天給你質詢的東西都是清清楚楚的第一個第一個就是在餘溫上面你本來說40%它蓋了百分之百到時候我都給你拿你去看嘛對不對第二個我今天質詢的是非常明確的當初餘溫不能夠超過百分之40是有科學根據的是你水勢所的"},{"start":791.034,"end":810.17,"text":"這個在法規上已經很明確了而且你都漏食了嘛 對不對包括 如果養那四種魚你這邊都是有的嘛所以你要漏食這個嘛 好 OK你說有很多樣式嘛那如果是我剛剛講的把它凝聚是確實是違法的那OK 那我們就明確你去看過之後一個要清查嘛 對不對然後確定去看是有違法的你是不是要考慮一下怎麼去幫國賠或者"},{"start":812.152,"end":819.884,"text":"這個我沒辦法同意因為我現在完全不知道因為餘定工生他的彼此之間光定業者跟漁民之間的關係非常複雜"},{"start":821.314,"end":848.952,"text":"那有不同的樣態不見得是漁民是受害者這個有時候也是光電是受害者我們所瞭解的當然你要去關心嘛一電共生這幾天的農業部重要政策國家重要政策我聽得到他們之間的合約的關係這個合約的關係就回到合約去處理我們不能動不動就國賠所以我們事實上是有共識的去查然後確定如果是農民我們查了以後再看看說那個樣態怎麼樣再走下一步啦所以農民如果是受害我們就要幫他啦"},{"start":850.853,"end":867.861,"text":"農民如果是受害我們會來協助他看他怎麼去做後續的處理如果是受害者很明確的受害者我們會來協助來看怎麼樣去跟光電業者去做相關的處理我用簡短大概時間超過我用30秒跟你講對於那個40%那個事情我去查了資料"},{"start":874.224,"end":894.707,"text":"你108年的3月6號本來講是宜溫的40%後來你再過了一個月啊過了一個月4月16號過了16號你又做了一個放寬你就要修回來好不好就確定是宜溫40%好不好好啦那個主席已經在講了OK那我們就說出來我們要照顧好移民然後把一個月內把他清出來好謝謝保定謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":551,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時2分）請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們繼續來幫忙最基層、最善良的農民，今天要跟你討論的是漁電共生的大漏洞。其實我在3月底就曾問過你有關漁電共生的事情，漁電共生這段時間出了很多問題，包括下面被埋了什麼爐渣、廢土等，雖然慢慢有做一些改善，可是我發現了更多的陳情，有一個大的問題，就是覆蓋率的問題。3月底我曾問過你，你做了這樣的回答，你看一下螢幕，你說漁電共生基本上光電的覆蓋率是40%，包括魚種你都有講，我現在明確的問你，這個40%應該是魚塭的40%，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：它是容許設施坐落土地的40%，就是他申請容許面積的……"],["張委員啓楷：這個分母到底是魚塭的40%，還是所有土地的40%？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，容許是針對土地面積，這塊土地面積的容許，這塊土地面積可能只有一小部分做魚塭，那不一定，所以我們的容許是用土地面積的40%。"],["張委員啓楷：現在最大的問題是很多地方的魚塭上面蓋了滿滿的光電板，現在漁民就說魚都養不活，對不對？你3月26號給我的答復是……"],["陳部長駿季：不是，這個……"],["張委員啓楷：來！來！部長你看你26號的答詢，你說要有陽光照射，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你說有40%覆蓋，其他60%陽光就可以進來，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：現在問題出在什麼地方？現在全國很多地方出現了一個很大問題，就是漁塭百分之百都被蓋滿了，也就是說沒有達到你上個月告訴我的40%的覆蓋，60%陽光可以射進來，如果百分之百把漁塭全部都蓋住了，哇！那就是零，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我們的漁電共生有兩類，一類是室內養殖型，而我剛才講的40%是戶外的，這兩個是不大一樣的。"],["張委員啓楷：好，我們先來談戶外，我們今天就鎖定戶外，上個月你跟我說的就是漁塭不是百分之百被蓋住，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，不是。"],["張委員啓楷：至少是40%，60%是有陽光射進來，這是有科學根據的，你根據的就是水試所2018年漁電共生模擬試驗，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你是有根據的，可是現在問題來了，請你看這張圖，左邊這個是漁塭，上面蓋得滿滿的，這是百分之幾？這是40%嗎？部長，我甚至調了空照圖給你看，右邊這個是漁塭，上面全部都是光電板，這個跟部長還有你們水試所當初做的實驗不一樣喔，對不對？我再給你看下一張圖，這個案場也一樣，這兩個案場都是在漁塭上蓋了百分之百，違反了你的理解，也違反了水試所當初做的結論，我們嘉義鄉親一直在陳情，其實部長你也很盡心盡力，上個月我問你的時候，不是有一家被求償嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：嗯！嗯！"],["張委員啓楷：後來我們努力讓他可以和解，現在在和解中，這就是我剛剛講的其中一個案場，他被光電業者這樣搞，搞到根本沒辦法……電有沒有生出來不曉得，可是魚死了嘛！漁電共生，結果電不曉得有沒有，但魚已經死了，這個就是現在臺南、嘉義鄉下很多地方碰到的悲劇。好，你有努力，這個案子有要他們去和解，可是問題並沒有解開啊！"],["陳部長駿季：第一，我必須誠實跟委員說明，用這樣的圖我沒有辦法判斷，因為有一些土地是地層下陷區、不利耕作區，他也許也有從事養殖行為，但是那時候的容許跟地面的或室內的是不一樣的規範，以農業部立場，我們一定是要先確保養殖能夠成功，也是事實，然後光電才是加值的部分，如果有不法的部分，我想都應該去查處。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我給你看的左邊的是實景圖，右邊是空照圖，我再進一步把地目調出來給你看，你看這張是整個案場，這是臺灣漁電共生的第一個模範區、示範區，也是第一個案場，結果有兩個場來陳情，他們都碰到一個大的問題，右下角這個是上次我一直問你的，你把全部都蓋住了，魚都死掉了，沒辦法養殖，所以漁民就抗議，結果開發商、光電商就跟他求償1億元，現在經過我們的努力，已經和解了，可是這個和解還是現在進行式。左上角那個更可憐，部長，我現在跟你講左上角的部分，你看上面的光電板是百分之百覆蓋，從空照圖、從地目來看，都很清楚，左上角這個發生什麼事情？漁民說臺鹽綠能是國營事業，你還開口了，他就同意你來做光電，結果轉了好幾手，後來變成台泥光電，結果左上角蓋出什麼？也是百分之百，那個農夫一直抗爭，到後來就腦中風了，兒子把工作丟下回去照顧爸爸，到現在還在抗爭，這兩個都是很大悲劇，一個被求償1億，一個家裡生活陷入困頓，不只沒辦法繼續再養魚，爸爸腦中風躺在家裡，兒子現在還在抗爭、陳情，原因就在於我剛剛跟你討論的，因為你們在法令解釋上，讓光電業者在魚塭上蓋了百分之百光電板，這個要不要處理？"],["陳部長駿季：我還是要跟委員說明，這樣的圖我沒辦法判斷，因為光電的覆蓋率會因為是農變的、農地變更而不同，做室內的或是做戶外的也有不同，我這邊有個數據可以跟委員報告，就是我們也要求各縣市有做光電場的要去盤查，清查有沒有不合法的地方，有沒有不養魚的，現在已經清查了122場，其中完全合格的大概將近37場到40場之間，表示還有很大部分是不符合相關規範而正在改善中，所以我也必須認同的確有一些不合法的光電場，但我們會要求地方政府去做一個有效查核，甚至我們也希望說，如果他沒有真正從事農業、漁業的經營就應該斷電，讓它的電不再輸送，如果讓電繼續輸送，它不斷地改善，那就沒完沒了，我想我們農業部的立場是這樣子。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，很棒，你也承認有部分是有問題的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：那你要去把它清查清楚，至少這兩個地方要去清查清楚。如果你去看，確定是……"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們後續如果有資訊可以去瞭解。"],["張委員啓楷：瞭解？我已經給你很明確了，空照圖給你了，地目圖也給你，實景都給你了。好，你要更明確，最近就請趕快去看這兩個地方，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：如果確定、確認了我剛剛講的，漁塭上面都蓋了100%的光電板，那這個就不行了。"],["陳部長駿季：如果它是地面型的，是絕對不行的。"],["張委員啓楷：在室外又是地面型的魚池上面。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：再看另外一個，剛才的兩張是嘉義的，這一張是臺南的，你看看，部長，上面一樣是被覆蓋得密密麻麻，全部都是光電板，也是100%。你是農業專家，你覺得這個光電板發電之後，下面可以養魚嗎？這樣有漁電共生嗎？還是電生但魚死掉了？就你的專業判斷，這樣可以養魚嗎？這樣叫漁電共生嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我如果純粹看這張圖的話，我覺得下面是沒有什麼氧。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！那它怎麼可以發電、怎麼可以通過你們的許可繼續發電？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我要跟委員報告，農業部是針對它的經營計畫書，我們做容許，後續都是地方政府在處理的，我們當然會有一些指引跟規範去要求，所以有類似這樣一個案場的時候，我們都會要求地方政府去嚴查，這樣才能確保……"],["張委員啓楷：要去嚴查嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你用常識去看，別說用什麼專業，用常識看就知道，水面都是浮萍啊！裡面如果有魚的話，魚就會把那個浮萍吃掉，結果密密麻麻都是浮萍，表示下面沒有魚嘛！第二個就是含氧量一定很高嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：這樣根本沒辦法養魚啊！所以它不叫漁電共生，它叫電生了，魚死掉了！是不是？部長，這個地目我會給你，至少這3個地方你要去看過，好不好？好，我就來做3個明確而具體的要求，看起來我們已經有共識了。","第一個，你要明確去界定漁電共生的覆蓋率，對光電業者來講，那個40%是用全部的土地去算，不是漁塭。其實我們今天講下來就很清楚了，漁塭的覆蓋率不能超過40%，要有60%讓陽光可以射進來，要不然魚就死掉了，不叫漁電共生。覆蓋率以漁塭為依據，不能夠超過40%，這要明定下來，不是以整體的案場去計算，這是第一個，對不對？部長，第一個做得嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們本來就是這樣規定的。"],["張委員啓楷：就是這樣規定的嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：本來就是這樣規定的。"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛講的那個，你看到的那個就是違規的嘛！不只要去看，還要去處理，這個法令、規定一定要去確定。","第二個，你不只要到現場去，還要統計一下現在有多少漁塭本身的覆蓋率是超過40%的，一個月夠不夠？一個月給我一份報告，就是你實際去查嘛，等一下我把那3個地址都給你。"],["陳部長駿季：我先跟委員報告，我們要做這件事情一定會發文給地方政府，由地方政府去查明後回報，這個部分我們會儘量在一個月給委員一個答復，但是有時候會牽涉到地方政府查核的時間，所以我現在不敢保證一個月他們一定會給我，因為有時候地方政府不給，我們也沒辦法。"],["張委員啓楷：你今天會發函就對了？要儘快。"],["陳部長駿季：這個禮拜好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：這個禮拜，那就儘快在一個月……"],["陳部長駿季：這個禮拜我們會發函給地方政府，讓它去查明嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這件事情非常重要，因為漁電共生是你的重要政策嘛！現在一定又加速推動，核電5月17號就停了，一定會推得更急。如果你已經發現有一些違反了你的規定，也出現那麼多悲劇了，就像我剛剛講的，那真的是……一個農夫本來好好地過日子，結果聽信國營事業臺鹽綠能，弄到後來腦中風，兒子要辭掉工作回來照顧爸爸，現在還在繼續抗爭，所以趕快去看，趕快幫他們解決問題，好不好？","第三個，這就是我要講，要怎麼去幫忙的？你去查看過後，對於發現是超過40%的，這個就不合規定了嘛！養不活就不是漁電共生了嘛！可是你一方面在提改善計畫的時候，就要研擬……這些漁民現在是受害者，對不對？就像我剛剛講的。"],["陳部長駿季：不見得是受害者喔！"],["張委員啓楷：有各式各樣，可是像我剛剛講的那兩個案子都是，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：不一定，我現在沒辦法判斷，因為漁電共生不是光電業者租地，由漁民負責養；不然就是純粹由光電業者養，樣態非常複雜，所以我現在也沒辦法判斷一定是漁民受害。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們把樣態集中一下，我今天質詢你的東西都是清清楚楚的。第一個，就是在漁塭上面，你本來說是40%，但它蓋到100%，這些資料到時候我都會給你，你就去看，對不對？","第二個，我今天質詢的也是非常明確的，當初規規漁塭的覆蓋率不能夠超過40%是有科學根據的，就是你水試所的……"],["陳部長駿季：這個在法規上已經很明確了，不需要……"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！而且你都落實了嘛，對不對？包括只能養哪十種魚，裡面都是有的嘛！所以你要落實這個嘛！OK，你說有很多樣式，但如果說是我剛剛講的，它確實是違法的，那就等你去看過之後，你一個月之內要清查嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：確定它是有違法的以後，剩下就是考慮要怎麼去幫他申請國賠，或者……"],["陳部長駿季：這個我沒有辦法同意，因為我現在完全不知道，因為漁電共生彼此之間，也就是光電業者跟漁民之間的關係非常複雜，有不同的樣態，不見得漁民是受害者，有時候光電業者才是受害者，就我們所瞭解的。"],["張委員啓楷：你當然要去關心啊，漁電共生就是農業部的重要政策、國家的重要政策。"],["陳部長駿季：因為他們之間有合約的關係，如果是合約的關係就要回到合約去處理，不能動不動就要國賠啦！"],["張委員啓楷：對，所以你要去查嘛！部長，所以我們是有共識的，就是去查，然後確定如果是農民……"],["陳部長駿季：我們查了以後再看看那個樣態是怎樣，然後再走下一步。"],["張委員啓楷：對，所以如果農民是受害者，我們就要幫他啦！對不對？像之前我跟你說的那件事，對不對？我們就去幫他們和解。"],["陳部長駿季：農民若實際有受害，我會協助他，看要怎麼做後續的處理。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，如果是受害者就要……"],["陳部長駿季：如果是受害者、很明確的受害者，我們會協助看怎麼去跟光電業者做相關的處理。"],["張委員啓楷：好，部長，我簡短講，因為時間超過了，我用30秒跟你講。對於那個40%的事情，我去查了資料，你108年的3月6號本來是講漁塭的40%，後來過了一個月，到了4月16號你就做了放寬，你要修回來，好不好？就是確定以漁塭的40%來計算，好不好？好啦！主席已經站起來了，我們最重要的就是照顧好漁民，然後一個月內把它清查出來，好不好？好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝。休息5分鐘。","休息（11時16分）","繼續開會（11時22分）"],["主席：繼續質詢。","我們現在請賴瑞隆委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","葉元之","蔡易餘","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","邱議瑩","張雅琳","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員呂玉\n玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員劉建國等 16 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案；七、本\n院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」\n案；八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員李坤城等\n22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案；十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十四、本院委員郭昱晴\n等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護\n法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保\n護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案；十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動\n物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正\n草案」案；十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案；二\n十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二十一、本院委\n員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬\n具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案；二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五\n條之二條文修正草案」案；二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等 17 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17 人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案\n（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144501_00004"}}},{"id":"160786","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160786","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b94236955f03f39af0a75763c0ba1d923b4b8dbd78ea87b1712f882e9d50a309363faa25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:50:20 - 11:01:48","影片長度":"00:11:28","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T10:50:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:01:48+08:00","duration":688,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.08159375,"end":0.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.43909375,"end":9.869093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.56096875,"end":11.084093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.93971875,"end":17.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.56409375,"end":18.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.52596875,"end":22.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.96409375,"end":27.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.50346875,"end":31.047218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.23284375,"end":32.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.95409375,"end":36.869093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.34159375,"end":38.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.70846875,"end":41.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.492843750000006,"end":43.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.517843750000004,"end":48.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.352843750000005,"end":46.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.44971875,"end":47.955968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.05284375,"end":51.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.09034375,"end":62.04659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.24909375,"end":63.345968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.03784375000001,"end":65.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.02909375,"end":74.58471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.06159375,"end":75.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.98534375,"end":77.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.03596875000001,"end":76.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.48721875000001,"end":79.00596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.07784375,"end":86.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.08596875,"end":80.64284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.33409375000001,"end":86.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.53221875,"end":86.54909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.95409375,"end":90.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.92409375000001,"end":93.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.78846875,"end":95.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.45909375000001,"end":116.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.09596875000001,"end":98.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.76971875000001,"end":106.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.00846875,"end":117.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.34596875000001,"end":118.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.53159375000001,"end":128.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.39471875,"end":146.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.25284375,"end":161.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.25471875000002,"end":161.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.82846875,"end":214.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.23659375,"end":169.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.14784375000002,"end":170.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.66534375,"end":180.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.38096875000002,"end":190.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.74846875,"end":215.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.87909375,"end":218.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.76909375000002,"end":239.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.45346875,"end":240.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.31409375,"end":247.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.33034375000003,"end":245.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.80659375000002,"end":251.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.26159375,"end":261.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.14596875,"end":264.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.00659375000004,"end":264.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.46221875000003,"end":266.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.22971875,"end":267.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.34346875,"end":281.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.14721875000004,"end":285.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.51784375,"end":291.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.01096875,"end":293.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.11596875000004,"end":293.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.77409375,"end":294.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.95971875000004,"end":297.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.10721875,"end":295.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.37284375,"end":298.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.66784375000003,"end":299.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.27534375000005,"end":302.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.54471875,"end":312.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.31534375,"end":339.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.87659375000004,"end":360.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.34596875,"end":423.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.06159375000004,"end":442.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.15159375,"end":452.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.79534375000003,"end":457.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.68096875000003,"end":471.26534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.09346875000006,"end":464.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.81909375000004,"end":467.01284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.48471875,"end":488.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.90596875000006,"end":476.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.53034375000004,"end":478.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.01096875,"end":479.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.54534375000003,"end":502.51784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.80471875,"end":508.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.52534375000005,"end":512.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.0859687500001,"end":512.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.6259687500001,"end":533.4665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.55096875,"end":541.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.81971875,"end":544.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.5365937500001,"end":558.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.38659375,"end":562.5590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.0147187499999,"end":565.8159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.86659375,"end":572.7009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.2578437500001,"end":576.8015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.0715937500001,"end":579.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.9909687500001,"end":581.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.8472187500001,"end":625.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.21159375,"end":641.0447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.26409375,"end":641.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.10784375,"end":642.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.7109687500001,"end":644.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.8415937500001,"end":647.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.3559687500001,"end":663.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.79659375,"end":663.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.2309687500001,"end":672.7022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.7790937500001,"end":667.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.79971875,"end":670.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.00596875,"end":673.4953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.0690937500001,"end":674.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.2209687500001,"end":674.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.11534375,"end":676.3472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.10659375,"end":678.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.1147187500001,"end":682.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.5234687500001,"end":686.2865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.3334687500001,"end":685.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.79721875,"end":686.0672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.13471875,"end":686.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.2865937500001,"end":688.1428437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.675,"end":9.696,"text":"謝主席 楊全發言 邀請部長陳部長國會好"},{"start":18.588,"end":40.676,"text":"今天張偉排了這個議程不管是藍綠白的委員大家都非常的關心而且都提案方向大家的凝聚力共同點也都是朝大概這個方向所以本期要請教那麼我們院版什麼時候會送到立法院來"},{"start":41.576,"end":65.171,"text":"因為你們從去年八月份的時候本席也在經濟委員會 一再跟你討論這個議題所以我們也希望在草野都能夠去惠及真正對社會有幫助而且保護我們這些的動物所以在這種情況之下請教從去年八月你們到底什麼社會送來"},{"start":66.204,"end":92.852,"text":"我剛才特別提到就是我們現在只差院會通過以後就可以送立法院那我回去我可以跟行政院做溝通明天是禮拜四啊 院會啊下禮拜四我說下禮拜四進到院會院會完以後就可以送到立法院來所以我希望說在五月的上旬下個禮拜四可以送進去院會這個可以 我想跟行政院那邊溝通一下"},{"start":93.837,"end":116.371,"text":"排進去到下個禮拜的院會裡有這個信心下個禮拜是送到有喔你這個有一個微笑所以我們現在要請教那大家既然共識點都很雷同那請問從去年8月到現在你們終於說下個禮拜是要送到院會裡頭充分的溝通你改變了哪些"},{"start":117.511,"end":145.177,"text":"來 請做說明特別剛才跟委員講就是在111年上次修正是110年那110年修正完以後我們發現幾個很重要的事情事主的責任還有虐殺動物有沒有還有就是虐待動物的部分那個事件層出不窮但是我們的法本身並沒有很明確的管理還有一些棄養的動作棄養的那個事件的定義也不明確所以我們這一次經過了"},{"start":146.397,"end":161.697,"text":"一些溝通以外針對事主的責任經過動物保護強化的部分還有寵物的一些管理的部分另外就是動保檢查人員也要有一些執法的權利所以針對這幾項我們去做一些修法的一些安排"},{"start":161.957,"end":180.249,"text":"那這個你們主要的這四大方向呢跟我們藍綠白的委員提案大家都有一致的這個方向那所以本席繼續來跟你討論也就是說惡意傷害動物自死自傷的事件陳榮銘剛才說的是屢屢發生那引發社會高度的一個公憤但是我們現在動保法的規定裡頭對於虐待動物的認定標準過於嚴苛"},{"start":190.575,"end":214.909,"text":"常常出現了很明顯的虐待但是沒有辦法去定罪的這個情況它不但打擊了你們執法單位的士氣而且也嚴重的損害了動物保護的這個精神所以本席要請教部長本席所提出的動保法第25條及25條之一的修法方向那您是否支持 請說明"},{"start":216.219,"end":238.786,"text":"我們絕對支持非常感謝你的絕對支持那麼我們就繼續討論原本必須要複數動物死亡才能夠處罰的這個限制將這個複數必須要刪除因為本席在提案說明的時候也特別說傷害就是傷害 凌虐就是凌虐怎麼還要到複數以上呢"},{"start":239.726,"end":257.561,"text":"請做說明委員報告喔 你不是這邊說的 你這邊就說了對 本席非常複視所以我們這次就把那個複數把它槓掉了同意槓掉 好 我們有一個共識接下來本席要講將暴力或者是私有其他凌虐方式致動物死亡的這個行為明確納入重法的規範 您的看法"},{"start":263.148,"end":266.39,"text":"好 這一個同意 接下來我要再請教對於傷害至器官損傷或者是死亡情節重大的案件 罰則也要加重因為你原先是要將動物的器官要喪屍耶這個太嚴苛了 它已經損傷了"},{"start":286.57,"end":299.498,"text":"本來就應當要罰 贊成嗎將喪屍改為損傷我們現在已經加重刑罰了對 一定要加重刑罰你也同意修正這樣子的一個條文好 這個非常的感謝終於聽到這個行政部門對本席的提案部長你這邊全力的來支持所以我們希望這個罰則加重了就是"},{"start":313.359,"end":336.546,"text":"整個社會的一個期待那真正的也要發揮一個嚇阻的這個功效本身認為作為文明的社會他不應當讓虐待動物者輕易脫罪應該要比照美國跟日本這些國家來提高虐待動物的刑責以及這個罰金才是真正的能夠遏阻這些的惡行"},{"start":339.947,"end":358.86,"text":"也能夠保障我們整個保護動物的這個精神讓這個飼主以及動物應有的權益都能夠受到保障那我們就期待我們希望盡速的在你下個禮拜四送進院會的行政院版趕快送到立法院我們完成的這個法案這個"},{"start":360.501,"end":365.722,"text":"接下來本席要跟你討論的我們犬貓的登記到目前為止是有222萬隻其中犬的部分是140萬隻貓的部分是82萬隻但是我們看到寵物相關的產業它的銷售額它已經達到387.3億那可以顯示出我們的寵物市場的規模是龐大而且日日在增加隨著市場的發展"},{"start":389.127,"end":407.062,"text":"那事主對於寵物食品的品質與安全的要求越來越嚴格本席也數次跟你討論過這個議題我們要吃的健康我們的寵物更應該他的食品的來源更應該要讓他健康那本席也看到你們在4月24號針對於寵物食品中的重金屬"},{"start":411.886,"end":423.414,"text":"跟黴菌的毒素的容許標準做了調整來確保整個產品的安全性所以因此本席要來跟您討論的也就是說"},{"start":425.134,"end":452.797,"text":"你們在這樣的一個情況之下呢本項請教4月22號的公佈這是非常好的一個起點但是你們要怎麼樣去確保這些新標準在市場上有效的來落實而且他是必須要有一個有效的監管跟查核機制才能夠讓這些製造商呢他能夠有所均衡請教"},{"start":454.844,"end":473.187,"text":"跟委員報告您這邊所提到的那個犬隻的隻數貓特別快這是在去年年底的現在兩個加起來已經是251萬隻了很好而且會陸續增加會增加那第二個部分就是我們針對我們提出來的這些那個寵物食品的那個對"},{"start":474.068,"end":492.205,"text":"那個有害物質跟我們會加強抽測過去我們大概是四五百件我們會再加強這個抽測的比例然後同時每一次的抽測完了以後我們就會公佈我們用公佈的方式讓本商有警惕啦"},{"start":492.925,"end":515.846,"text":"對 所以這個部分我想我們可能會更加強然後針對寵物業者現在寵物業者大概有三千多家的寵物業者寵物食品業者的部分有大概八萬多件的寵物食品我們也會同步的加強這些抽測包括進口的也是一樣加強抽測 同時你也要加強宣導讓這個公布呢 讓大家都知道我們要一起"},{"start":516.366,"end":540.242,"text":"向上 善的循環向上 深厚 加油接下來最後一個議題本期請教我國漁船涉入宰殺保護類動物的國際指控案件層出不窮顯示了現行的監管跟教育以及處罰機制仍舊有很大的缺口所以本期希望要有積極的作為那不然恐怕將使我國在漁業國際間背負了沉重的負面評價那據媒體報導"},{"start":544.665,"end":568.84,"text":"有船主在6月2024年的6月駕駛了這個漁船作業期間那指示的外籍漁工呢在西北太平洋非法捕捉並宰殺我國列為二級保育類的海豚將以血肉吸引殺魚哇 這個嚴重的違反到我們的野保法不僅破壞了我們的海洋生態更重創我國國際的一個形態所以本期要請教"},{"start":573.323,"end":597.617,"text":"像這樣的事件我們政府怎麼樣的作為怎麼樣讓我們在國際間不會有這些惡性的一個負評我第一個問題報告像這個遠洋漁業的部分一定要透過國際的合作那以今天這個案例是加拿大跟我們合作的對加拿大本身的巡航的那個飛機有拍攝到儀式的所以第一時間通知我們以後"},{"start":598.217,"end":625.509,"text":"等這漁船進港的時候我們馬上做漁獲的清查調查跟檢查才順利的把這些可能疑似這些有這種宰殺野生動物的這些這些犯罪的事實跟證據能夠保全起來所以這個部分我想後續他已經違反了相關的IUU的部分那現在目前特別是IUU是全世界一直在認真對待的事情那我們台灣有所謂的那個"},{"start":626.63,"end":641.487,"text":"國際人權的一個相關的條例漁業人權的法案我們會持續的去加強還有包括相關的監管在各地的港口我們也會有監管員會上船去做查核這個部分我想我們會努力來做部長當然這個"},{"start":645.05,"end":663.548,"text":"國際國家通知我們當然我們配合IU也非常的重視我們要的是說我們要再怎麼樣在國際的這個扶貧不能再有所以因此我們也不能只坐著人家通知我們而我們必須要好好的從觀念教育讓我們的"},{"start":664.429,"end":670.292,"text":"預算知道大家一起來維護國家的一個顏面這才是重點你要多多的從教育從觀念然後去加強這樣子才能夠這個進動一起來才能夠不會再有這樣子的一個負評好謝謝委員的提醒去研議方案好嗎好謝謝好謝謝我們現在請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":504,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時50分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。今天召委排了這個議程，不管是藍、綠、白的委員，大家都非常的關心，而且都有提案，大家凝聚的共同點都是朝大概這個方向，所以本席要請教我們院版什麼時候會送到立法院？因為從去年8月份的時候，本席也在經濟委員會一直在跟你討論這個議題，所以我們也希望在朝野都能夠匯集真正對社會有幫助，而且保護我們這些動物。在這樣情況下，請教從去年8月，你們到底什麼時候會送來？"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才特別提到，我們現在只差院會通過以後就可以送立法院，我回去再跟行政院做溝通，看可不可以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：明天是禮拜四。"],["陳部長駿季：明天來不及。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：來不及，下禮拜來得及嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我目標下禮拜四進到院會，院會完以後就可以送到立法院，所以我希望是在5月的上旬。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你希望下個禮拜四可以送進去院會？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我再跟行政院那邊溝通一下，看能不能在下個禮拜的院會排進去。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有信心在下個禮拜四嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席要請教，既然大家共識點都很雷同，請問從去年8月到現在，你們終於要在下個禮拜送到院會裡充分的溝通，你們改變了哪些？請說明。"],["陳部長駿季：剛才跟委員報告的，上次修正是110年，在修正完以後，我們發現幾個很重要的事情，飼主的責任、虐殺動物、還有虐待動物的事件層出不窮，我們的法本身並沒有很明確的規範，還有一些棄養的動作，針對棄養事件的定義也不明確，所以我們這次經過了一些溝通之外，針對飼主的責任、動物保護強化的部分，還有寵物的一些管理，另外就是動保檢查人員也要有一些執法的權力，針對這幾項，我們去做一些修法的安排。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你們主要的這四大方向，跟我們藍、綠、白委員提案……"],["陳部長駿季：一致。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：大家都有一致的方向，所以本席繼續跟你討論，惡意傷害動物致死致傷事件，誠如你剛才說的，是屢屢發生，引發社會高度公憤，但是現行動保法規定對於虐待動物的認定標準過於嚴苛，常常出現了很明顯的虐待，卻沒有辦法定罪的情況，不但打擊了執法單位的士氣，也嚴重損害動物保護的精神，所以本席要請教部長，本席所提出的動保法第二十五條及第二十五條之一的修法方向，你是否支持？請說明。"],["陳部長駿季：我們絕對支持。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：非常感謝你的絕對支持，那麼我們就繼續討論下去。原本必須要複數動物死亡才能夠處罰的這個限制，本席認為必須將「複數」刪除，本席在提案說明時也特別提到，傷害就是傷害，凌虐就是凌虐，怎麼還要到複數以上呢？請說明。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，你不是這次說而已，上次你就說過了……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，本席非常重視。"],["陳部長駿季：所以這次我們就把「複數」刪掉了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：同意刪掉，好，我們有共識。接下來本席要請教，將暴力或者施予其他凌虐方式致動物死亡的行為，明確納入重罰的規範，你的看法？"],["陳部長駿季：這個我們也同意……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這個同意。接下來我再請教，對於傷害致器官損傷或者是死亡的情節重大案件，罰則也要加重，因為原先的規定是要致動物的器官喪失，這個太嚴苛了，它已經損傷了，本來就應該要罰，所以將「喪失」改為「損傷」，贊成嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在已經加重刑罰了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，一定要加重刑罰，你也同意修正這樣的條文？"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個條文已經有修正。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，非常感謝，終於聽到行政部門對於本席的提案是全力支持，我們希望加重罰則，這是整個社會的期待，也才能真正發揮嚇阻功效。本席認為一個文明社會，不應當讓虐待動物者輕易脫罪，應該比照美國跟日本這些國家，提高虐待動物者的刑責及罰金，這樣才能真正遏阻這些惡行，落實動物保護的精神，讓飼主以及動物應有的權益都能夠受到保障。期待你們下禮拜四可以儘速把行政院版本送進立法院，我們來完成這個法案的審查。","接下來要跟部長討論的是犬貓的登記，根據農業部統計，到目前為止犬貓登記數量有222萬隻，其中犬的部分是140萬隻，貓的部分是82萬隻，但是我們看到寵物相關產業的銷售額已經達到387.3億元，顯示出我們的寵物市場規模龐大，而且日日在增加，隨著市場的發展，飼主對於寵物食品的品質與安全要求越來越嚴格，本席也數次跟部長討論過這個議題，我們要吃得健康，寵物的食品來源更應該健康。本席看到你們在4月24號針對寵物食品中的重金屬汞及黴菌毒素的容許標準做了調整，以確保整個產品的安全性，因此本席要跟你討論的是，4月24號的公布是非常好的一個起點，但是你們要怎麼樣確保這些新標準可以在市場上有效落實？本席認為必須要有一個有效的監管跟查核機制，才能讓這些製造商有所遵循，請教部長。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，您這邊所提到犬貓隻數，這是去年年底的數據，但貓成長得特別快，現在兩個加起來已經是251萬隻了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：很好，而且會陸續增加。"],["陳部長駿季：對，會增加。第二個部分，針對我們提出來的有關寵物食品的有害物質跟……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：重金屬汞和黴菌等。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會加強抽測，過去大概是四、五百件，我們會再加強抽測比率，同時每一次抽測完以後就會公布，我們用公布的方式讓廠商有警惕……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，有嚇阻作用。"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分我們會更加強。針對寵物食品部分，現在大概有三千多家寵物食品業者，大概有八萬多件寵物食品，這部分我們也會同步加強抽測，包括進口的也是一樣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：加強抽測，同時也要加強宣導，讓這個公布可以讓大家知道，我們要一起向善，善的循環要向上升，加油。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來最後一個議題請教，我國漁船涉入宰殺保育類動物的國際指控案件層出不窮，顯示現行的監管、教育以及處罰機制仍舊有很大的缺口，所以本席希望你們要有積極作為，不然恐怕將使我國漁業在國際間背負沉重的負面評價。據媒體報導，有船主在2024年6月駕駛漁船作業期間，指示外籍漁工在西北太平洋非法捕撈並宰殺我國列為二級保育類的海豚，再以血肉吸引鯊魚，哇！這個嚴重違反野保法，不僅破壞海洋生態，更重創我國的國際形象，所以本席要請教，像這樣的事件，政府有什麼作為？怎麼樣讓我們在國際間不會有這些惡性的負評？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個跟委員報告，像遠洋漁業的部分，一定要透過國際合作，以今天這個案例，是加拿大跟我們合作的，加拿大本身巡航的飛機有拍攝到疑似情況，第一時間通知我們，等這個漁船進港的時候，我們馬上做漁獲的清查、調查跟檢查，才順利的把這些可能疑似有宰殺野生動物的犯罪事實跟證據保全起來，這個部分因為他已經違反相關IUU規章，特別是IUU是目前全世界一致認真對待的事情，而我們臺灣也有所謂的國際人權相關條例，即漁業人權相關法案，我們會持續加強去做，包括相關監管，在各地港口，我們也會有監管員上船去進行查核，這個部分我們會努力來做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，國際上的國家通知我們，當然我們要配合，IUU也非常重視，我們要的是怎麼樣讓這個國際上的負評不會再有，所以我們不能只等著人家通知，必須要好好的從觀念、教育上著手，讓我們的漁船知道，大家一起來維護國家顏面，這才是重點。你要多多從教育、從觀念上加強，靜、動一起來，才不會再有這樣的負評產生。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：去研議方案，好嗎？謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請張啓楷委員詢答。張啓楷委員詢答結束以後，休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","葉元之","蔡易餘","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","邱議瑩","張雅琳","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員呂玉\n玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員劉建國等 16 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案；七、本\n院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」\n案；八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員李坤城等\n22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案；十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十四、本院委員郭昱晴\n等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護\n法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保\n護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案；十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動\n物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正\n草案」案；十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案；二\n十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二十一、本院委\n員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬\n具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案；二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五\n條之二條文修正草案」案；二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等 17 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17 人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案\n（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144501_00004"}}},{"id":"160785","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160785","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369d127e6d0ada63057693dd611367b4dddd78ea87b1712f882a776b5aef8effbec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:47:20 - 10:56:20","影片長度":"00:09:00","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查「保險法」15案：\n一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案。【後3案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第一百二十三條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T10:47:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:56:20+08:00","duration":540,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.13221875,"end":2.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.88284375,"end":4.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.63784375,"end":5.684093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.059093750000002,"end":10.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.62409375,"end":12.164093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.72096875,"end":14.661593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.083468750000002,"end":22.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.829093750000002,"end":28.937843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.089718750000003,"end":30.895343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.96284375,"end":31.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.047218750000003,"end":40.125968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.27784375,"end":43.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.32784375,"end":48.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.563468750000006,"end":49.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.187843750000006,"end":55.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.414718750000006,"end":59.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.375968750000006,"end":65.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.32034375,"end":65.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.96159375,"end":76.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.89659375000001,"end":78.38159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.36034375,"end":85.51971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.67159375,"end":88.87784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.96221875,"end":90.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.97034375000001,"end":94.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.86846875,"end":96.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.58971875,"end":100.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.79159375,"end":106.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.83284375000001,"end":106.84971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.86659375,"end":109.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.48221875,"end":110.84909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.06846875000001,"end":113.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.76846875000001,"end":119.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.20221875000001,"end":131.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.01034375,"end":134.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.96346875,"end":140.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.63346875000002,"end":143.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.72159375,"end":147.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.21471875,"end":161.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.99846875,"end":154.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.12909375,"end":155.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.05721875,"end":156.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.11971875,"end":161.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.71034375000002,"end":173.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.65784375,"end":175.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.53096875,"end":179.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.29409375,"end":186.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.39409375000002,"end":191.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.03471875000002,"end":208.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.65659375,"end":215.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.55846875,"end":216.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.50346875000002,"end":235.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.74096875,"end":256.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.68534375000002,"end":241.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.85159375,"end":259.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.73721875,"end":260.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.46284375,"end":263.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.56784375,"end":267.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.87096875000003,"end":272.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.00096875,"end":293.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.92721875,"end":286.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.14659375,"end":286.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.70659375,"end":303.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.40971875,"end":305.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.34596875,"end":313.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.28159375,"end":314.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.32346875,"end":316.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.90971875,"end":317.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.80409375,"end":321.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.39409375,"end":331.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.36721875,"end":345.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.64784375000005,"end":347.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.52096875,"end":349.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.05221875,"end":352.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.95471875000004,"end":354.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.76034375,"end":364.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.81784375,"end":369.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.77909375,"end":369.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.79596875000004,"end":370.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.03221875,"end":375.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.41096875000005,"end":380.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.89971875000003,"end":383.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.53221875,"end":385.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.16909375,"end":386.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.41784375000003,"end":395.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.34471875,"end":395.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.07034375,"end":396.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.72846875000005,"end":401.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.21284375000005,"end":414.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.18971875000005,"end":415.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.96596875,"end":425.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.50034375,"end":433.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.24596875000003,"end":442.99971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.20221875000004,"end":464.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.12284375,"end":469.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.00409375000004,"end":471.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.47659375,"end":469.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.92784375,"end":476.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.96471875000003,"end":507.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.74534375,"end":504.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.27221875000004,"end":511.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.74846875000003,"end":513.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.4653437500001,"end":517.1653437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.50284375,"end":522.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.56534375,"end":530.9015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.57284375,"end":530.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.3190937500001,"end":535.2890937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.349,"end":5.476,"text":"各位歷史觀影大家早主席有請金管會彭主委那請彭主委"},{"start":9.076,"end":30.492,"text":"委員好主委早請教主委有關於這個保單結業金的強制執行門檻規定單一授權保單結業金未超過債務人所在地區每月最低生活費1.2倍乘以3個月的標準時該保單才不得被扣押或強制執行"},{"start":31.172,"end":59.415,"text":"那以台中市為例最低生活費乘以1.2倍乘以3個月的金額大概是57877元那最高的台北市大概是73364元那其實這引發很多問題啦因為全國標準不一那這個受險或者是年金險的這個保費費率不會因為地區不同而有所差異那付的是一樣的錢那住在農村的人跟住在台北市"},{"start":60.897,"end":77.939,"text":"購買同一個同一張保單付的這個保費費率都一樣那為什麼住在鄉下非六都的人保單反而容易觸碰到被扣押的紅線 容易被解約那這個不合理 這就不合理了那保單"},{"start":79.42,"end":99.488,"text":"住偏鄉的人他收入可能會比較低可能會比較低那如今又要被用相同相對嚴格的標準來對待那不就等於說被扒了兩次皮所以我認為說如果要做盡可能的做到一致性 全國一致那這樣才能夠避免不同縣市的民眾面對不公平的一個處境"},{"start":100.848,"end":118.017,"text":"那主委有沒有考慮再做修正例如說有其他委員的版本所提到的最低工資或者是直接以台北市作為這個標準以台北市的標準作為門檻做到全國統一是 謝謝委員的關心我想這個議題委員講的這個很多人都關心這個議題"},{"start":119.518,"end":140.237,"text":"我們在公聽的時候我們也注意到其實我們當初訂立這個本意我再一次強調我們並沒有要針對不同地區的國人有不一樣待遇的這樣的一個想法我們只是當時原來尊重強制執行法上面本來就採用這樣的標準但是我們既然單獨立法剛剛也提到了委員剛剛提到也有人提出兩個非常好的想法"},{"start":140.777,"end":160.397,"text":"一個就是我們能不能就以這個相同的標準就以台北市或是最高的那個作為一個統一的標準這樣就不會有剛才委員所顧慮的點了這一點我們是剛才有幾位委員要表達說我們覺得這個也是個好的方法我們可以來思考所以有考慮啊這個回去跟委員跟鄉親解釋其實沒有這個意思謝謝好"},{"start":161.838,"end":186.809,"text":"那以債務人所在地區這樣1.2倍乘以3個月的標準是確實是太低啦那尤其是高齡債務人這次修法當中被關注的一個弱勢這個群體那他們的經濟來源都是依賴退休金社會保險或者是社會保障或保險金等所以被強制扣押就會使得他們在生活面會面臨到很大的壓力尤其是高齡者"},{"start":187.449,"end":207.762,"text":"那他們的身體無法像年輕人一樣積極的參與工作所以保險金就是成為他們維持基本生活的主要依賴那如果強制執行門檻過低沒有做一致性的我們剛剛提到的說如果以台北市為最高標準的這個部分來做一個思考那這樣子的話"},{"start":208.963,"end":225.844,"text":"這些高齡債務人可能就無法滿足他們日常生活所需那如果修法後這個保單解約金的強制執行門檻還是那麼低他要面對的雙重壓力除了說一方面要面對償還債務人壓力困境另外一方面又要"},{"start":226.244,"end":238.56,"text":"又失去了生活的保障所以對於年紀大或者健康不佳的人來說這相對是非常危險的情況所以我們在立法的同時也要考量到弱勢群體他們的處境所以有關於標準的部分"},{"start":242.765,"end":266.74,"text":"再請主委就以我們剛剛您也提到了說以單一縣市台北市為例來做一個這樣子的一個一個更具體的一個思考來做這樣的決定那我們也在這個司法院的報告書裡面也有看到他們也有指出說倘若執行之解約金債權金額僅為每人每月最低生活費1.2倍"},{"start":268.081,"end":287.852,"text":"計算乘以三個月恐難以充分保障收益人之基本生活所以他們也建請說就豁免執行門檻之計算月數再行斟酌提高所以我們用各個這些相關大家提出來這些意見來做一個對於人民弱勢群體更具保障的立法的一個目的"},{"start":290.273,"end":304.787,"text":"那我想金管會在這邊既然有願意來做調整那我們也很期待那要兼顧到所有群體的需求尤其是高齡者低收入還有這個長期病患這些弱勢的群體因為"},{"start":306.408,"end":327.778,"text":"他們在生活當中本來就是處於困境之中如果面對保單強制執行的問題造成生活品質的下降這些部分會更讓他們感到困難也許會產生其他的危險性那我再請教一下就是我們小兒中老這個部分剛剛我提到其他委員都有提到"},{"start":328.638,"end":352.566,"text":"那小兒中老部分能不能強制執行的問題這好像金管會跟司法院還有法務部這邊都有不同的看法那去年金管會保險局已經建議司法院的執行原則法務部在去年都已經發給各分署執行裡面規定說小兒中老保險豁免強制執行"},{"start":354.861,"end":375.639,"text":"但是今天我們的這個保險法修正草案卻允許小兒中老可以被強制執行所以其實你們自己建議保護部要豁免但是結果這個保險法的修法沒有納入豁免這個讓大家有看沒有懂所以說去年你們是建議要這樣子那今年你們又沒有把它納入豁免所以"},{"start":376.58,"end":395.555,"text":"我是建議主委啦這樣子政策不同調會讓民眾搞不清楚除了看不懂之外會覺得政府又在亂搞所以我想說在這邊要請主委說是不是再一次的跟司法院跟法務部討論小中老保險強制執行要不要豁免這個部分可以嗎"},{"start":396.855,"end":412.919,"text":"根文報告其實沒有說我們的政策不一的問題因為主要是我們去年訂那個指引就是我們在預告的時候有很多人提出非常多的質疑因為我們整個立法過程當中我們要查納亞言就是說他認為說這樣的方式"},{"start":415.26,"end":416.241,"text":"在前面幾個委員質詢有兩點跟委員報告"},{"start":433.531,"end":459.645,"text":"額度的部分 我覺得我們尊重我們整個我們大院審查的結果這我們剛剛提過 大家有不同的考量再來對小額中老保險的部分我們剛才行政版本是一個原則性的排除如果針對特別的部分的話我們也是尊重 只是說不要用商品名稱因為小額中老保險不是一個法律週延的名詞是一個商品的名稱用這個方式 剛剛前面委員也有提"},{"start":460.986,"end":473.794,"text":"我想這邊都可以在未來在條文討論的時候呢我們都持開放的態度金管會強調的是維護債權人的權益沒有是平衡要橫平那司法院他關注的是弱勢這個群體的保障"},{"start":478.258,"end":495.175,"text":"司法院他規定說小兒中老保險豁免這個強制執行是因為小兒中老保險是因為我們我國人口我國人口這個高齡化的趨勢那普及高齡者基本保險保障而推動的這個保險商品"},{"start":495.876,"end":522.071,"text":"那所以因此明定小兒中老保險商品不得強制執行那你剛剛提到當然你就說你要平衡你要保障這些東西所以我希望就是說你們要好好討論溝通不要這樣子不同調不要讓民眾看不懂你們到底要做什麼去年建議豁免那今年又把又把它剔除在豁免的這個範圍之內所以我想希望你們這邊能夠跟司法院法務部充分溝通達成共識"},{"start":522.831,"end":534.836,"text":"這沒問題我們已經有在溝通這個問題我想說這個各方有各方的不同意見我們都來尊重大家來考慮謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝那我們現在休息10分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":571,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時47分）主席、各位列席官員，大家早。有請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主委早。請教主委有關於保單解約金的強制執行門檻規定，單一壽險保單解約金未超過債務人所在地區每人每月最低生活費1.2倍乘以三個月的標準時，該保單才不得被扣押或強制執行。以臺中市為例，最低生活費乘以1.2倍乘以三個月的金額大概是5萬7,877元，最高的臺北市大概是7萬3,364元，其實這引發很多問題，因為全國標準不一，但壽險或年金險的保費費率不會因為地區不同而有所差異，付的是一樣的錢，住在農村跟住在臺北市購買同一張保單付的保費費率都一樣，那為什麼住在鄉下非六都的人，保單反而容易觸碰到被扣押的紅線，容易被解約？這就不合理了。住在偏鄉的人，他收入可能會比較低，如今又要被用相對嚴格的標準來對待，那不就等於被剝了兩次皮？所以我認為如果要做，應該儘可能的做到全國一致，這樣才能夠避免不同縣市的民眾面對不公平的處境。主委有沒有考慮再做修正？例如有其他委員的版本提到的最低工資，或者是直接以臺北市的標準作為門檻，做到全國統一？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員的關心，我想委員講的這個議題很多人都關心，我們在公聽的時候也注意到，其實我們當初訂定這個的本意，我再一次強調，我們並沒有針對不同地區的國人有不一樣待遇的想法，當時只是尊重強制執行法上本來就採用的標準，但是既然單獨立法，委員剛才也提到有人提出兩個非常好的想法，一個就是我們能不能以相同的標準，就以臺北市或最高的那個作為統一的標準，這樣就不會有剛才委員所顧慮的點，這點剛才也有幾位委員表達，所以我們覺得這也是個好的方法，可以來思考。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以有考慮了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個請委員回去跟鄉親解釋，其實沒有這個意思，謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，以債務人所在地區最低生活費乘以1.2倍乘以三個月的標準確實是太低了，尤其是高齡債務人，在這次修法當中被關注的一個弱勢群體，他們的經濟來源都是依賴退休金、社會保障或保險金等，一旦被強制扣押就會使得他們的生活面臨很大的壓力，尤其是高齡者，而他們的身體無法像年輕人一樣積極的參與工作，所以保險金就成為他們維持基本生活的主要依賴，如果強制執行門檻過低，沒有像我們剛剛提到的一致以臺北市為標準來做思考，這些高齡債務人可能就無法滿足他們的日常生活所需，如果修法後，保單解約金的強制執行門檻還是那麼低，他就要面對的雙重壓力，一方面除了要面對償還債務的壓力，另外一方面又要失去生活的保障，對於年紀大或健康不佳的人來說，這相對是非常危險的情況，所以，我們在立法的同時，也要考量到弱勢群體的處境。有關於標準的部分，再請主委就以我們剛剛提到的，以單一縣市臺北市為標準，來做一個更具體的思考。我們也在司法院的報告裡面看到，他們也指出，倘若執行之解約金債權金額僅為每人每月最低生活費1.2倍計算乘以三個月，恐難以充分保障受益人之基本生活，所以他們也建請就豁免執行門檻之計算月數，再行斟酌提高。我們用大家提出來的相關意見，來做一個對於弱勢群體更具保障的立法，我想金管會既然願意來做調整，我們也很期待要兼顧所有群體的需求，尤其是高齡者、低收入者還有長期病患這些弱勢群體，因為他們在生活當中本來就處於困境之中，如果面對保單強制執行的問題，造成生活品質的下降，會更讓他們感到困難，也許還會產生其他的危險性。","我再請教一下關於小額終老的部分，剛剛其他委員也都有提到關於小額終老部分能不能強制執行的問題，好像金管會、司法院跟法務部都有不同的看法，去年金管會保險局建議司法院的執行原則，法務部在去年都已經發給各分署執行，裡面規定小額終老保險豁免強制執行，但是今天我們這個保險法修正草案卻允許小額終老可以被強制執行，也就是說你們自己建議法務部要豁免，但是結果保險法的修法卻沒有納入豁免，這讓大家有看沒有懂。去年你們是建議要這樣，但今年你們又沒有把它納入豁免，所以我建議主委，這樣政策不同調會讓民眾搞不清楚，除了看不懂之外，會覺得政府又在亂搞。是不是請主委再一次跟司法院、法務部討論小額終老保險強制執行要不要豁免？可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，其實沒有政策不一的問題啦，因為主要是我們去年訂那個指引，就是我們在預告的時候，有很多人提出非常多的質疑，在整個立法過過程當中，我們要察納雅言，就是大家認為這樣的方式不夠周延，而且很多的定義不清楚，所以我們才提了這個版本，這是一個法制的程序，我們也會來加強說明。剛剛委員提到的，我非常的贊成，經過前面幾位委員質詢，我有兩點跟委員報告，第一、額度的部分，我們尊重大院審查的結果，這我們剛才提過，因為大家有不同的考量；再來對於小額終老保險的部分，行政院版本是作原則性的排除，如果針對特別的部分，我們也是尊重，只是說不要用商品名稱，因為小額終老保險不是一個法律周延的名詞，是個商品的名稱，前面也有委員提出過，我想未來在條文討論的時候，我們都持開放的態度。"],["顏委員寬恒：我是說金管會強調的是維護債權人的權益。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，要衡平。"],["顏委員寬恒：司法院關注的是弱勢群體的保障，司法院規定小額終老保險豁免強制執行，是因為小額終老保險是因應我國人口高齡化的趨勢，普及高齡者基本保險保障而推動的保險商品，因此明定小額終老保險商品不得強制執行。那你剛剛提到你要平衡，你要保障，所以我希望你們好好討論溝通，不要這樣不同調，不要讓民眾看不懂你們到底要做什麼，去年建議豁免，今年又把它剔除在豁免的範圍之外。所以我希望你們能夠跟司法院、法務部充分溝通，達成共識。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這沒問題，我們已經有在溝通這個問題，各方有的不同意見，我們都來尊重，大家來考慮。"],["顏委員寬恒：謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時56分）","繼續開會（11時15分）"],["主席：接著請羅明才委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","黃珊珊","羅智強","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","黃國昌","陳玉珍","王世堅","林思銘","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","徐富癸","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「保險法」15案：一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員\n王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人\n分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案；二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第\n一百二十三條之一條文草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等\n19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百\n七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案","agenda_id":"1144301_00006"}}},{"id":"160784","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160784","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369a5429975fef91e228b6df88a6e7dffcad78ea87b1712f882cbfbb2dae5f8c4225ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:00:23 - 11:11:55","影片長度":"00:11:32","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場(廠)墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:00:23+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:11:55+08:00","duration":692,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.650343750000001,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.30409375,"end":11.691593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.809718750000002,"end":12.079718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.05784375,"end":44.783468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.509093750000005,"end":47.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.02346875,"end":49.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.65596875,"end":66.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.73346875,"end":105.31409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.44909375,"end":127.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.42034375000001,"end":149.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.11721875,"end":153.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.47534375,"end":162.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.11096875,"end":171.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.33346875,"end":170.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.85221875000002,"end":202.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.93596875,"end":248.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.02596875,"end":248.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.04284375,"end":248.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.21159375000002,"end":248.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.22846875000002,"end":248.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.85284375,"end":257.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.79659375,"end":259.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.78784375000004,"end":268.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.88784375,"end":286.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.07471875000005,"end":313.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.30284375,"end":312.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.46721875000003,"end":326.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.32596875,"end":398.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.12471875,"end":399.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.44096875,"end":442.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.13471875000005,"end":445.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.12159375000005,"end":452.28096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.44971875000005,"end":479.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.71971875,"end":492.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.17346875000004,"end":544.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.78971875,"end":557.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.9184687500001,"end":559.8759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.1797187500001,"end":561.5634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.8503437500001,"end":596.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.49034375,"end":617.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.9597187500001,"end":644.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.07784375,"end":671.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.81221875,"end":671.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":672.2297187500001,"end":686.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.3959687500001,"end":692.1928437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.666,"end":11.256,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們有請洪部長還有請質安署林署長"},{"start":20.487,"end":42.076,"text":"我想今天真的是很沉痛的一個主題即使明天是五一勞動節我們除了祝福所有勞工朋友跟他的家人都能夠平安幸福以外今天這個主題真的是很令人沉痛尤其是在高空墜落的事故的部分那個都是一個喪可是從數據來看"},{"start":45.578,"end":65.088,"text":"我們每一年就有那麼多的家庭變成一個永恆的沉痛永恆的心痛所以真的我想今天的委員們都非常非常的期待未來如何能夠減少這樣的事故的發生所以今天就根據三個主題來跟部長還有署長來討論一下"},{"start":68.83,"end":87.065,"text":"其實職災一直都是大家非常關心的議題所以在這個過程裡面預防還有責任的釐清是很重要的那我們也知道說在過去這麼多年來所發生的這個職災的這個死亡人數其實是讓我們很心驚膽跳"},{"start":88.266,"end":114.612,"text":"那很多都屬於複合式的災害除了這個高峰墜落過程裡面其實很多都是複合式的災害那近期也做了很多檢討包括今天的檢討裡面也認為包括可能原因有工程設計為考量施工安全風險之下所造成的問題那工程安慰資源投入不足還有工程平行分包缺乏統合管理機制等等這個所造成的一些問題"},{"start":115.712,"end":138.76,"text":"那包括在前一段時間全年的台中大肚倉儲的火災案這個就是很典型的一個屬於複合性的災害的問題那最後的結果反而是被起訴的對象不包括全年或者是負責工程的廠商反而是派駐在現場的空調配管工程人員跟員工被起訴受到影響"},{"start":139.6,"end":162.153,"text":"所以前署長才會感嘆說未來就是誰創造風險誰就要負責管理請問一下部長未來勞動部要如何讓企業主還有營造廠都能夠被克制並確實負擔起管理跟預防職災的責任雖然已經有過那麼多的委員"},{"start":163.214,"end":179.153,"text":"跟你要求要做這方面的處理那可不可以請部長在針對這樣的狀況再進一步說明跟王老師說明我們確實這段時間其實也檢討確實很多我們看到的重大的"},{"start":180.934,"end":201.963,"text":"這個職安或公安的事件裡面很難去苛責業主的責任所以這一次其實也是在我們的法規的修訂裡面把業主的責任其實給放進去一個是業主的責任那業主尤其他該擔負起包括其實在一開始的時候就要做相關的風險評估按照風險評估來做施工的執行"},{"start":203.063,"end":229.742,"text":"第二個是其實我們也看到很多這個整個大家其實都提到乘風轉包的問題乘風轉包他的風險跟他的責任就可能會被一直的轉嫁或者是切割最後反而會發生很難救責的狀況或者是這整個工地的這個責任是一個散亂的這個狀況所以我們這次修法裡面也放入要求這個法規裡面直接要要求我們其中一個這個承包商要做"},{"start":230.402,"end":248.32,"text":"統合性這個相關的統合的這個責任必須要指定一個廠商來做這件事情的部分那這也是在回應我們目前在工地的現場看到的這些這些工地的文化或者是他們的這個樣態其實給予相關的制度修訂的回應對是"},{"start":248.96,"end":265.262,"text":"所以未來有沒有機會針對某一些特定的剛有提到一些民間工程或者是屬於政府部門的工程在風險上如果有機會先了解它的這個風險是非常高的話那有沒有機會先去做臨場的管理"},{"start":266.763,"end":285.697,"text":"這部分不知道這個其實就是我們在講的源頭的管理的部分業主在一開始源頭的時候他就要在做這個風險相關的掌握甚至相關的風險的評估設計跟管理這其實就是我們在說的在源頭管理他就必須要科與他做這個責任如果沒有做那就要開罰"},{"start":287.096,"end":312.564,"text":"因為我們了解現在的建築物越來越在設計上的風格為了要凸顯它的特色所以我們從它的設計圖就可以理解它的風險尤其是在高空最多的風險可能是非常非常高的這部分我的意思就是說有沒有機會當它開始有這個設計圖出現的時候其實相關單位就能夠掌握到未來這個風險極高之下是不是應該要極淺"},{"start":313.684,"end":340.986,"text":"這是我們剛才說的他其實在規劃設計的階段他就要在一開始的時候就把風險的評估跟風險管理的方式他就要把它給做出來他有責任必須做出來也不能再迴避這件事情OK好那就麻煩這部分要再加強OK謝謝那第二部分就要跟部長來討論一下這個強化勞工健康服務的部分因為我來自醫界所以一直對於這個勞工的這個健康服務其實"},{"start":341.767,"end":356.384,"text":"一直都有很深的感受那在去年6月我們有看到這個職業安全衛生研究所也出了一份報告不知道部長有沒有機會去了解這份報告這份報告主要是針對於從"},{"start":358.606,"end":383.122,"text":"2011年開始針對300人的員工以上的這個部分做實施臨場健康服務以來把這個十幾年來的這些經驗匯整以後針對於在這個過程裡面勞工健康服務的效益做一個評估那這個評估裡面也特別在訪談了145家比較具有特別危害健康作業職場的這些勞工的這個服務的人員"},{"start":388.145,"end":405.397,"text":"指安慰的這些同仁做了相關的這個了解跟調查那其中他有整理出了九點的政策建議那包括有五大點就是第一個是要調整定這個成效的指標第二個就是要修正勞工健康保護的規則"},{"start":406.678,"end":427.894,"text":"第三個是記錄表單讓他更彈性簡易第四個就是要依照行行業的這個特性來提供健康指引那第五點就是提供充分的訓練資源來強化溝通跟推廣訓練等等那這部分很具體的是針對於未來比較大型的這個具有多的勞工同仁的"},{"start":428.394,"end":441.896,"text":"健康服務的過程裡面希望有更好的一個政策上的推行那這部分不知道部長有沒有其他的建議或者是有沒有可能在一個月裡面給我們一份這個政策建議可行性的報告平息"},{"start":443.226,"end":468.963,"text":"包圍沒問題這部分我們已經努力在做這個部分就麻煩對真的健康服務的部分可以再加強好那第三個部分就是要跟部長討論一下鼓勵企業來提供勞工癌篩還有這個癌後的後續協助因為我們知道其實很多勞工朋友他們有一個癌症是跟他們的職業"},{"start":470.124,"end":491.17,"text":"跟他們的生活習慣是有非常大的關係就是口腔癌那針對於我們這個剛剛所提到那份報告裡面就是健康服務裡面是不是能夠更加強尤其是像跟這個勞工朋友比較有相關的這個口腔癌的服務因為我們知道其實很多的勞工朋友他們不是不願意去篩檢"},{"start":492.31,"end":506.778,"text":"他們很擔心篩檢以後萬一被診斷癌症造成了困擾干擾還有他們未來的這個就業等等會不會受到很多影響因為我們知道其實口腔癌的病人他"},{"start":507.498,"end":529.077,"text":"目前的治療之下它其實可以提供有好的一個癒後將近有五成到六成的這些勞工朋友其實他的口腔癌經過處理就可以改善了可是當然也有一些是比較晚期的病人平均之下預期有一個診斷口腔癌的勞工他的平均壽命是13.7年"},{"start":531.019,"end":558.481,"text":"那他的健康餘命是12.4年可是相較於相較於沒有癌症的這個病人他們損失了15.1的平均這個健康餘命還有16.4年的這個不健康餘命的這個影響就是說他受到影響其實對這個家庭對社會對工作來講都是非常非常多的這個造成的後果所以我剛所提到就是為什麼他們有時候對篩檢是有疑慮"},{"start":560.322,"end":581.407,"text":"因為他們擔心一旦確診以後後續的治療對於他的工作的影響那如果他後來是把癌症治好了他回到職場所受的影響等等會讓他們造成一些擔心這部分可能也要麻煩部裡面看有沒有更好的政策來加強在這個"},{"start":583.027,"end":600.076,"text":"健康服務的同時能夠也讓這些勞工們知道他們在這部分如何透過我們的僱主能夠來強化有關於這個健康服務的模式我們也知道現在賴總統在打造這個健康台灣"},{"start":600.956,"end":626.426,"text":"但是這個健康台灣其實就是很希望所有的國民都能夠得到很好的健康的服務的模式那我們剛才提到根據113年那一份的報告裡面我們期待健康服務的內涵應該不只是安全或者是合法而已我們希望把這個健康服務的概念能夠真的帶入到在這個健康台灣政策之下的一些"},{"start":627.466,"end":643.833,"text":"希望能夠有在政策上可以具體來呈現的所以最後我們是希望說能夠在這個整體的政策上也透過勞動部這邊的努力將健康台灣的政策目標納入到企業永續的指標裡面"},{"start":645.194,"end":671.442,"text":"那第二個部分就是要強化鼓勵企業來提供離愛員工的協助協助方案剛剛有提到一些將來所造成的困境還有強化這個提供癌症康復員工續聘跟工作調整還有透過勞工健康服務機制來鼓勵勞工癌篩的這些希望能夠納為這個政策性的內涵而不是說我們在做這個健康服務的過程裡面只是合法"},{"start":672.242,"end":691.888,"text":"有在做這個運作而言那這部分可不可以請勞動部也能夠在一個月裡面能夠具體的提出這個推動的這個書面報告給我們參考好沒問題那就麻煩這個部長還有同仁加油謝謝謝謝好謝謝王委員謝謝部長現在休息十分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":582,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時）謝謝主席，有請洪部長及職安署林署長。"],["主席：請部長及署長。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好，署長好。今天的主題真的是很沉痛的一個主題，明天是五一勞動節，我們除了祝福所有勞工朋友跟他的家人都能夠平安幸福以外，今天討論這個主題真的令人感到很沉痛，尤其是在高空墜落事故的部分，這都是一個剎那，可是從數據來看，每一年就有那麼多的家庭變成一個永恆的沉痛、永恆的心痛。我想今天委員們都非常期待未來如何能夠減少這樣的事故發生，所以今天就根據三個主題來跟部長及署長討論一下。","其實職災一直都是大家非常關心的議題，在這個過程裡面，預防以及責任釐清是很重要的，我們也知道過去這麼多年來所發生的職災死亡人數，其實是讓我們很心驚膽跳，除了高空墜落之外，其實很多都是複合式的災害。近期也做了很多檢討，在今天的檢討當中也認為可能原因包括工程設計未考量施工安全風險、工程安衛資源投入不足、工程平行分包缺乏統合管理機制等等所造成的一些問題。包括前一段時間全聯臺中大肚倉儲火災案，這就是很典型屬於複合性災害的問題，結果最後被起訴的對象不包括全聯或者是負責工程的廠商，反而是派駐在現場的空調配管工程人員及員工被起訴，所以前署長才會感嘆未來就是誰創造風險，誰就要負責管理。請問一下部長，未來勞動部要如何讓企業主及營造廠都能夠被課責，並確實負擔起管理與預防職災的責任？雖然已經有那麼多委員要求你要做這方面的處理，可不可以請部長針對這樣的狀況再進一步說明？"],["洪部長申翰：跟王委員說明，這段時間其實我們也在檢討，確實在很多我們所看到的重大職安或工安事件裡面，很難去課以業主的責任，所以這一次在法規的修訂裡面把業主的責任放進去。針對業主擔負的責任，包括在一開始的時候，他就要做相關的風險評估，按照風險評估來施工。第二個，大家其實都有提到層層轉包的問題，層層轉包的風險和責任可能會被一直轉嫁或是切割，最後反而會發生很難究責的狀況，或者是整個工地的責任是一個散亂的狀況，所以我們這次修法也在法規裡面直接要求其中一個承包商要負起相關統合的責任，必須指定一個廠商來做這件事情，這也是針對目前我們在工地現場看到的工地文化及樣態，給予相關制度修訂的回應。"],["王委員正旭：所以未來有沒有機會針對某一些特定的工程，剛剛有提到一些民間工程或者是屬於政府部門的工程，如果有機會先了解它的風險是非常高的話，有沒有機會先去做臨場的管理？這部分不知道未來……"],["洪部長申翰：這其實就是我們在講的源頭管理的部分，也就是業主在源頭一開始的時候，他就要做相關的風險掌握，甚至相關的風險評估、設計跟管理，這其實就是我們所說的在源頭管理，就必須要課予他負起這樣的責任，如果沒有做，那就要開罰。"],["王委員正旭：因為現在的建築物在設計上的風格為了要凸顯它的特色，所以從它的設計圖就可以理解它的風險，尤其是高空墜落的風險可能是非常非常高的。針對這部分，我的意思是有沒有機會在開始有設計圖出現的時候，相關單位就能夠掌握到在未來風險極高之下，是不是應該要……"],["洪部長申翰：這就是我們剛剛說的，其實在規劃設計的階段，他在一開始的時候，就要把風險評估跟風險管理的方式給做出來，他有責任必須做出來，以後不能再迴避這件事情。"],["王委員正旭：OK，那就麻煩這部分要再加強，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員正旭：第二個要跟部長討論一下強化勞工健康服務的部分，因為我來自醫界，所以對於勞工的健康服務一直都有很深的感受。去年6月我們有看到職安署職業安全衛生研究所提出了一份報告，不知道部長有沒有機會去了解這份報告？這份報告主要是從2011年開始，針對300名員工以上的職場實施臨場健康服務以來，把十幾年來的經驗彙整以後，針對這個過程裡面的勞工健康服務效益做一個評估，在這個評估裡面也特別訪談了145家具特別危害健康作業職場的勞工健康服務人員，包括醫護及職安衛的同仁進行相關的了解及調查，其中整理出九點政策建議，包括有五大點：第一個是要調整訂定成效指標；第二個是要修正勞工健康保護規則；第三個是紀錄表單要更彈性簡易；第四個是要依照行業特性提供健康指引；第五個是提供充分訓練資源、強化溝通及推廣訓練等等，這部分很具體的是針對比較大型、具有比較多勞工同仁的健康服務過程裡面，希望有更好的政策推行。針對這部分，不知道部長有沒有其他的建議，或者是有沒有可能在1個月裡面給我們一份政策建議可行性的報告？"],["林署長毓堂：沒有問題，這部分我們已經努力在做。"],["王委員正旭：好，這個部分就麻煩了，針對健康服務的部分可以再加強。"],["洪部長申翰：好。"],["王委員正旭：第三個是要跟部長討論鼓勵企業提供勞工癌篩及罹癌的後續協助。我們知道有一個癌症跟勞工朋友的職業及生活習慣有非常大的關係，就是口腔癌。針對剛剛所提到的那份報告，也就是在健康服務裡面是不是能夠更加強與勞工朋友比較相關的口腔癌的服務？其實很多勞工朋友不是不願意去篩檢，而是他們很擔心篩檢以後，萬一被診斷癌症，將會造成許多困擾與干擾，還有他們未來的就業會不會受到影響等等。其實口腔癌病人在目前的治療之下可以提供良好的預後，將近有五成到六成勞工朋友的口腔癌經過處理就可以改善了，可是當然也有一些是比較晚期的病人，平均之下，診斷為口腔癌的勞工預期平均壽命是13.7年，他的健康餘命是12.4年，相較於沒有癌症的病人，他們損失了15.1年的壽命，以及16.4年的健康餘命，也就是他所受到的影響，其實對於家庭、社會及工作來講，都會造成許多嚴重的後果。所以我剛剛才會提到為什麼他們有時候對於篩檢會有疑慮，因為他們擔心一旦確診以後，後續治療對於他工作的影響，如果他後來把癌症治好了，他回到職場所受到的影響等等，會讓他們造成一些擔心，這部分可能也要麻煩部裡面看看有沒有更好的政策來加強，也就是在健康服務的同時，也讓這些勞工們知道，他們在這部分如何透過雇主來強化有關於健康服務的模式。","我們也知道，現在賴總統在打造健康台灣，但是健康台灣其實就是很希望所有的國民都能夠得到很好的健康服務模式。我們剛剛有提到，根據113年的那一份報告，我們期待健康服務的內涵應該不只是安全或者是合法而已，我們希望把這個健康服務的概念，能夠真的帶入健康台灣的一些政策，希望可以具體來呈現。","最後，我們希望在整體的政策上，也透過勞動部這邊的努力，將健康台灣的政策目標納入企業永續的指標裡面。第二個部分，要強化、鼓勵企業提供罹癌員工的協助方案，剛剛有提到一些因口腔癌所造成的困境；還有強化提供癌症康復員工續聘跟工作調整；透過勞工健康服務機制來鼓勵勞工癌篩，希望能夠納為政策性的內涵，而不是我們在做健康服務的過程裡面，只是合法有在運作而已。這部分可不可以請勞動部也能夠在1個月內提出相關具體推動的書面報告給我們參考？"],["洪部長申翰：好，沒問題。"],["王委員正旭：OK，就麻煩部長，還有請同仁加油，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（11時11分）","繼續開會（11時23分）"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：現在繼續開會。","麻煩下一位劉建國委員、召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}},{"id":"160783","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160783","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369f3c70ee559604bb40ca66b6f3bc7c703d78ea87b1712f882d4763c261ae1c13a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:01:55 - 11:07:47","影片長度":"00:05:52","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T11:01:55+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:07:47+08:00","duration":352,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.39721875,"end":6.7809687499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.995968750000001,"end":10.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.99534375,"end":12.754718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.974093750000002,"end":18.610343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.11659375,"end":41.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.336593750000006,"end":50.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.140968750000006,"end":70.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.75409375000001,"end":75.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.03596875000001,"end":116.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.73846875000001,"end":190.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.89971875,"end":224.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.18159375000002,"end":305.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.33346875,"end":314.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.19721875000005,"end":316.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.31909375000004,"end":322.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.97659375,"end":321.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.79909375,"end":333.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.46471875000003,"end":330.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.74284375,"end":332.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.41346875000005,"end":333.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.97034375000004,"end":334.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.32471875000005,"end":335.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.45971875000004,"end":335.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.03346875,"end":335.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.40471875000003,"end":335.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.53971875,"end":335.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.59034375000005,"end":335.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.69159375000004,"end":335.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.72534375000004,"end":335.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.69534375,"end":340.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.88471875000005,"end":347.18346875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.387,"end":6.269,"text":"你好 我們請院長有請院長被質詢 謝謝"},{"start":12.208,"end":38.974,"text":"陳院長院長早院長這個故宮南醫院自2015年開始它已經將近10年了那這10年間我們看到在疫情的時候故宮南醫院的這個參訪人次一度有超過北院那我們都把它認為說是一個很作為文化平權一個很正面的訊號但是去年卻僅僅有90萬的參觀人次距離單年破百萬有一段距離"},{"start":40.094,"end":49.9,"text":"那我想請教一下這十年間的參觀人次還有它的年度營收跟同期的北院來比較的話你有沒有看到什麼樣的波動"},{"start":52.562,"end":70.088,"text":"跟委員報告就是南苑他當初掀起規劃的時候他一年的參觀人數是數評估是70萬所以一開館的時候就超過而且一直都以百萬人次的一個標準在走那在疫情時候反而"},{"start":70.888,"end":94.45,"text":"突破百萬那疫情之後的話再降下來前年的話是95萬去年的話是99萬6千所以基本上來講的話今年我希望它可以到了110萬就是說它是超乎它原來的規劃一起可是有一點它的國際觀光的旅客基本上來講的話那個比例是比較低"},{"start":95.271,"end":115.884,"text":"南部的話南苑的話以親子南部以親子為主所以這個是兩邊不一樣的差異那當然南苑的話票價150北苑的話外籍的話350然後國人的話150那基本上來講營收跟那個文創商品都有一個差距存在"},{"start":116.804,"end":143.909,"text":"我先講一下文創商品那文創商品的話我有注意到說包含嘉義的故宮南苑那有跟我們的比方說我們嘉義縣的農會也好等等它有結合我們在地的農業那把這個茶葉的產品結合故宮的這個他們館藏的一些美學的這些產品的這個logo等等那結合在一起那其實是作為故宮的這一個文創產品來講"},{"start":144.929,"end":172.609,"text":"它是有得到很好的迴響那包含我們跟國際的外賓在交流的時候我們都會制正這樣子具有台灣意向有故宮南院意向的這個產品所以我們就希望說在這個年度營收的部分文創產品的部分結合嘉義因為它是故宮南院它就在嘉義的這些在地的這個意向進去那對於推銷不僅是文化本身還有在地的這個文化本身都有很大的幫助"},{"start":173.169,"end":190.162,"text":"那另外一部分南院成立當初是的初衷是亞洲藝術文化中心那近年來它的這個策展的焦點那主要還是有聚焦在中國的書畫、器物等等那未來是不是還是一樣亞洲多元為定位"},{"start":192.343,"end":216.984,"text":"基本上來講的話如果我們說把亞洲視為一個大的整體的話那當然就是說中國文化或是華夏文化當然是亞洲的一部分可是南沿的話的確我們是以亞洲文化作為一個廣泛的一個區域去做交流所以每年的話都會有一個亞洲藝術國家的主題展覽跟主題業基本上來講的話"},{"start":219.527,"end":237.207,"text":"就彰顯故宮南院跟亞洲對接的一個窗口所以特別提到這個的原因是因為這次在我訪法的時候有法國政府邀請那他們有特別提到我們的故宮那他們提到故宮的時候他們主要針對的還是故宮的北院"},{"start":238.228,"end":267.358,"text":"中國文化為主那我認為我們南院它能夠作為適當的分流它可以把整個亞洲文化作為我們主要的一個展演那也是我們未來做宣傳的一個很好的方式也就是說我們當然在國際的這個旅客當然是會聚焦在台北因為包含交通等等都比較便利可是故宮南院我們自己也要把我們的品牌特色做出來那最後我就簡單再講就是館內的接駁故宮南院它佔地非常的大"},{"start":267.938,"end":294.155,"text":"那許多民眾包含國內外的旅客都有提到說在夏季的接駁的部分那他的這個接駁的班次可能看可不可以來相應的提升不然從特別是對一些弱勢的到年長的或者是身體不自由的這一些民眾來講的話那可能要走大概八九百公尺才能夠到展場那如果在這個時候的接駁車的這個次數不夠的話"},{"start":296.556,"end":322.216,"text":"那變成他們必須要花更多的時間成本在那邊那也可能會減少遊客的意願這個部分也請院長能夠帶回去檢討一下是 好那個7212的話基本上來講的話它已經直接從高鐵可以對接到那個南苑所以這個部分的話基本上來講不是 我跟院長我在講的是院區內部院區內部的接駁基本上來講有我們南北院區的話都有接駁站我自己就在"},{"start":322.816,"end":323.876,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員的質詢院長請回座 謝謝我們接下來有請葉元之委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":495,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（11時2分）你好，請院長。"],["主席：有請院長備詢。"],["蕭院長宗煌：陳委員早。"],["陳委員冠廷：院長早。院長，故宮南院從2015年開館至今已將近10年，這10年間，我們看到在疫情的時候，故宮南院的參訪人次一度超過北院，我們都把它認為是作為文化平權一個很正面的訊號，但是去年僅有90萬的參觀人次，距離單年破百萬仍有一段距離。我想請教一下，這10年間的參觀人次以及年度營收跟同期的北院相比的話，你有沒有看到什麼樣的波動？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，南院當初先期規劃的時候，評估一年的參觀人數是70萬，所以一開館的時候就超過了，而且一直都以百萬人次的標準在走，在疫情的時候反而突破百萬，疫情之後再降下來，前年是95萬，去年是99萬6,000人次，所以基本上我希望今年可以到110萬，就是說它是超乎原來的規劃預期。可是有一點，就是它的國際觀光旅客比例是比較低的，南院的話是以親子為主，這個是兩邊不一樣的差異。當然，南院的票價是150元，北院外籍人士的票價是350元，國人的票價是150元，基本上營收跟文創商品都有一個差距存在。"],["陳委員冠廷：我先講一下文創商品，文創商品的話，我有注意到，包含嘉義的故宮南院有跟嘉義縣農會等等合作，它有結合在地的農業，把茶葉產品與故宮館藏一些美學的產品、logo等等結合在一起，以作為故宮的文創產品來講，其實它是有得到很好的迴響，包含我們跟國際外賓在交流的時候，我們都會致贈具有臺灣意象、有故宮南院意象的產品。關於年度營收以及文創產品的部分，因為故宮南院在嘉義，所以我們希望能夠結合嘉義在地的意象進去，這對於推銷不僅是文化本身，還有在地文化本身都有很大的幫助。","另外一部分，南院當初成立的初衷是亞洲藝術文化中心，近年來它的策展焦點主要還是聚焦在中國的書畫、器物等等，未來是不是還是一樣以亞洲多元為定位？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上如果把亞洲視為一個大的整體的話，中國文化或是華夏文化當然是亞洲的一部分，可是南院的話，我們是以亞洲文化作為一個廣泛的區域去交流，所以每年都會有一個亞洲藝術國家的主題展覽跟主題月，藉此彰顯故宮南院跟亞洲對接的窗口。"],["陳委員冠廷：我特別提到這個的原因是，這次在我訪法的時候，由法國政府邀請，他們有特別提到我們的故宮，當他們提到故宮的時候，其針對的還是以故宮北院的中國文化為主，我認為南院能夠作為適當的分流，它可以把整個亞洲文化作為主要的展演，也是我們未來做宣傳一個很好的方式，也就是說，國際旅客當然是會聚焦在臺北，因為包含交通等等都比較便利，可是我們也要把故宮南院的品牌特色做出來。","最後，我就簡單再講館內的接駁，故宮南院占地非常的大，許多民眾，包含國內外旅客都有提到，在夏季接駁的班次可不可以相應的提升？特別是對一些弱勢、比較年長或是身體不自由的民眾來講，可能要走大概8、900公尺才能夠到展場，如果這個時候接駁車的次數不夠的話，變成他們必須要花更多的時間成本在那邊，也可能會減少遊客的意願，這個部分也請院長能夠帶回去檢討一下。"],["蕭院長宗煌：是，7212的話，基本上它已經可以直接從高鐵對接到南院，這個部分基本上來講……"],["陳委員冠廷：不是，院長，我在講的是院區內部。"],["蕭院長宗煌：有關院區內部的接駁，南、北院區都有接駁站……"],["陳委員冠廷：我自己就在院區，我常常會去院區裡面看基礎設施，我現在反映的是，南部的院區滿大的，如果可以的話，把它的頻率提高。"],["蕭院長宗煌：頻率提高，OK。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員的質詢，院長請回座，謝謝。","接下來有請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-9","speakers":["葛如鈞","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","林宜瑾","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","范雲","郭昱晴","陳冠廷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林沛祥","張雅琳"],"page_start":315,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00007"}}},{"id":"160782","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160782","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369cc728d1ebb0c56670ca66b6f3bc7c703d78ea87b1712f882f0fba3fac4fb75495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:51:24 - 11:01:38","影片長度":"00:10:14","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T10:51:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:01:38+08:00","duration":614,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.48659375000000005,"end":2.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.19846875,"end":10.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.99971875,"end":12.636593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.06221875,"end":125.96909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.34034375,"end":138.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.84034375000002,"end":180.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.47096875,"end":212.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.08221875,"end":221.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.52409375000002,"end":228.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.70096875000002,"end":222.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.09659375,"end":228.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.43409375000002,"end":344.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.70284375,"end":345.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.01034375,"end":348.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.90471875000003,"end":389.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.20221875000004,"end":395.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.31534375,"end":406.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.72409375,"end":399.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.37721875000005,"end":403.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.22096875000005,"end":404.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.35971875,"end":410.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.95846875,"end":433.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.93284375,"end":412.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.49909375000004,"end":450.62721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.61284375,"end":434.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.47284375000004,"end":442.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.91096875000005,"end":444.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.50971875000005,"end":447.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.60221875,"end":508.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.70659375,"end":518.3972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.5322187500001,"end":525.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.82221875,"end":527.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.3703437500001,"end":532.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.3359687500001,"end":532.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.69034375,"end":539.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.0615937499999,"end":536.2678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.5290937500001,"end":538.9678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.18721875,"end":564.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.1328437500001,"end":563.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.75284375,"end":585.2390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.43346875,"end":599.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.20721875,"end":607.2778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.94034375,"end":610.6359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.3828437500001,"end":610.9228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.70346875,"end":611.8172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.8172187499999,"end":611.9015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.9015937500001,"end":612.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.54284375,"end":612.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.0278437500001,"end":615.10784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.63,"end":9.725,"text":"請郭育晴委員質詢好 謝謝主席 有請院長請院長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":16.247,"end":24.055,"text":"院長早安 院長在1月底的時候有提到預算被刪減之後其實對故宮的營運也帶來一些直接的影響尤其是在文物的保存 還有國際展覽合作的部分我們就來看一下 原列預算數是1億345萬4千元後來刪減大概是一成"},{"start":39.21,"end":58.462,"text":"我們知道這個文物的保存其實非常重要的就在於它的不管是溫度也好濕度的一個控管也好那這個部分其實也仰賴了很大的一個電力包含電費的部分但是現在我們這個部分可能已經被刪減了那我想包含比較容易受到環境影響的文物像是青銅器等等"},{"start":59.002,"end":73.13,"text":"那這一類的這個預算的三減可能有會帶來一個無法彌補的一些文物的這個受損的一個傷害那這個部分我想請教一下下就是說不管是在我們的空調照明"},{"start":74.19,"end":103.377,"text":"以及這個用水集中在這個展場跟庫房的一些區域這水電的需求是一定都一年比一年多我們可以從這張表格看到從111年度一直到113年度它這個電費的部分呢我們其實都是在往上漲的那這個部分因為我們的預算被刪減現在文物是不是有可能會面臨所謂的高風險被損壞的可能如果這些文物如果有"},{"start":103.857,"end":124.863,"text":"劣質化的一個狀況請問這個責任到底是誰來擔那另外呢其實故宮也是深具這個指標性的國際級的一個博物館如果連這種所謂的基礎的設施的運作最低的門檻我們都沒有辦法得到水電經費的足額的一個支持有沒有可能會"},{"start":126.984,"end":133.712,"text":"影響到我們這個修復的計畫的推進或者是環境監控的設備的一個更新甚至長遠來看影響到國際當中的生育跟標準院長怎麼看"},{"start":140.181,"end":154.951,"text":"跟委員報告我還是要跟大會跟所有的民眾就是做一個承諾故宮的既定的展場跟庫房所有的運作我們都會繼續維持這個部分不變"},{"start":157.393,"end":179.869,"text":"那當然經費不足 我剛剛已經講過 就是我們的結算數已經超過預算數不足的話 它會用流用的方式 那這也是不得已的一個方式那流用的推廣教育的經費 我們會去尋求另外的資源來支持那有一點就是可能也是不得已的 就是說本來我們的第二展覽館 北院第二展覽館"},{"start":181.536,"end":206.263,"text":"在六月份的那個大都會的展覽之後我們本來要接著有接續性的展覽所以坦白講我現在技術性把它移到十二月底就是說那這樣的話起碼就是我有三個月的時間的話那個電影會可以準決下來所以第二展覽館的話可能大都會展覽結束之後就是會到年底才會"},{"start":206.983,"end":226.981,"text":"正式啟用 所以這個是一個不得已的一個調控的一個措施所以現在已經在開始做調控的一個方法包含我們的這個國外的展覽等等展覽的部分絕對不會影響 正常的展覽跟庫房的保存維護絕對不會影響 我在這邊做保證"},{"start":227.782,"end":237.724,"text":"好那我們再來看一下如果在預算緊縮的狀況剛剛其實有提到就是我們的國外的展覽的部分其實也會面臨挑戰這個部分應該也是會面臨挑戰因為我們原列這個預算數是297萬5千元刪減了178萬等於是預算被刪減到60%那我想呢這個故宮今年不僅僅是要從這個日方"},{"start":253.987,"end":278.099,"text":"東京富士美術館以及九州國立博物館等等要介入一些比較重量級的一些作品那我們也會分三批到法國跟捷克來做出展的一個這樣子的一個動作那在人力的部分我們當然會希望能夠要求就是有專業的人力的一個往返用比較高標準的人力的一個資源"},{"start":279.299,"end":299.505,"text":"現在有沒有可能也因為這個部分受到嚴重的一個挑戰那我還記得其實在去年這個我相信這個在野黨的委員他們到這個捷克去拼外交的時候其實對於我們的這個故宮的文化走出去其實他們是非常非常讚譽有加的那當然也信誓旦旦的說絕對會這個我們的國寶要出國展覽的時候也會有專人來做這樣子的一個保護的人力的資源的一個支"},{"start":307.427,"end":325.545,"text":"就是幫助就是有專人來做這樣往返但是現在現今我們是不是有可能會面臨所謂的這個出國的預算被刪減而受到的影響那另外還有一個就是我們的南院的部分馬來西亞的藝術樂屆展的一個活動"},{"start":327.987,"end":344.922,"text":"那我們跟這個故宮來做所知那但是故宮回覆給我們的是說預算數被面臨中斷那這個部分也會就是因為在我們的文化的部分可能在展覽的部分也會受到影響這個部分院長怎麼看"},{"start":349.225,"end":366.376,"text":"就是我剛講的就是捷克跟華國的基本上來講的話這是一個重大的國際交流活動所以我們的經費完全都會控管保留所以不會有影響那其他的部分的話譬如說我們跟那個千年神"},{"start":367.617,"end":388.577,"text":"就是那個西安雅琪的話 跟東博借的兩件產品然後跟那個Snyder借的產品基本上來講的話 依照國際的借產慣例的話都要親自去押印所以這個部分的話 當然就是說我們會尋求不同的資源來支援因為我們幾乎把故宮原來庫存的贊助款"},{"start":389.358,"end":406.069,"text":"都掏空了現在等於還是要跟外面去尋求因為押運的往返其實也是需要專業的人力那如果說在人力的配置上其實我們是普通的話那是不是在僅有的人力他們也會因為"},{"start":407.67,"end":431.803,"text":"比较辛苦工作的时间比较长另外跟我们报告的确有一个展览现在受到影响就是马来西亚因为马来西亚原来的届展单位比较多但是因为有一部分都还没有签合约所以基本上来讲的话有些届展工作的话可能我们就停下来然后跟中研院跟台博馆跟台史博跟国内的"},{"start":433.704,"end":442.432,"text":"史前博物館我們是借相關的展品就是說我們就放棄跟國外借展展品然後用國內的展品來所以這個展覽的確是有影響其他的話已經既定的簽約的我們保證絕對都不受影響的確的確 這應該要想辦法那另外其實"},{"start":453.482,"end":458.165,"text":"院長其實今年初也表示另外要找經費讓這些活動盡量影響的層面要縮小我們要關切的是故宮慶三年從111年度到113年度接受捐贈的收入是掛零如果以這樣子的部分來看"},{"start":476.135,"end":503.393,"text":"故宮現行接受外界捐贈的這個處理要點已經明定了所謂的回饋的一個機制像是所謂的這個展覽的廣告露出那另外呢還有是開幕的酒會等等但事實上這樣子的一個制度有效轉為實際捐贈的成果這個上面我們看到的是零跟這個台博館還有我們的國立歷史博物館其實他們的這些數據來相比較的話這個掛零是真的沒有這方面的"},{"start":505.038,"end":508.332,"text":"這個捐贈的成果還是說我們沒有把這個成果登錄進去"},{"start":509.921,"end":538.492,"text":"根文報告因為這些必須要報行政院然後送立完被查然後也會在網站上登錄我想這個部分的話我請同仁再確認一下因為事實上現在同仁給我的資料有111年112年113年都有監證的金額而且都有單位好那再把確定的數字給我們辦公室好嗎因為我們去看的時候其實我們看到上面是零"},{"start":539.272,"end":564.295,"text":"那另外的話就是這一次的那個大美不言的話因為他把所有的那個經費都投入到那個投入到那個展場的設施所以並沒有所謂的回饋但是大都會的展覽的話因為我們跟十一多媒體合作的話他基本上來講的話他就有一定的基本的回饋然後跟他的售票的定額回饋這個部分的話我們有在處理"},{"start":564.995,"end":582.419,"text":"我們當然也希望這個故宮要主動的去規劃跟行銷還有媒合的一些機制然後來吸引更多的一些企業的這方面的一個贊助跟支持然後讓我們的整個所有的故宮不管是在文化的推廣在國際的推廣當中其實我們可以看到讓世界也看到"},{"start":582.819,"end":612.139,"text":"我們故宮的一個努力跟委員再補充一下就是其實我們有一些經會的話譬如說我們跟那個龍山寺合作它是那個龍宮傳奇就是讓弱勢偏鄉族群的小朋友到故宮來參訪那這個經會的話是直接用在那個幫助小朋友來的車會住宿什麼所以它不會列為單純的一個監證金額放在裡面了解了解好 那正確的數字再麻煩提供給我們辦公室是好 謝謝院長 謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":614.13,"end":615.077,"text":"谢谢郭玉清"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":458,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時51分）謝謝主席，有請院長。"],["主席：請院長備詢，謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：院長早安。院長在1月底的時候有提到，預算被刪減之後其實對故宮的營運也帶來一些直接的影響，尤其是在文物的保存還有國際展覽合作部分。","那我們就來看一下，原列預算數是1億345萬4,000元，後來刪減大概是一成。我們知道文物保存其實非常重要的就在於不管是溫度也好，溼度的控管也好，這個部分其實也仰賴了很大的電力，包含電費部分。但是現在我們這個部分可能已經被刪減了，那我想包含比較容易受到環境影響的文物，像青銅器等等，這一類的預算刪減，可能會帶來無法彌補的一些文物受損的傷害。這個部分我想請教一下，不管是在我們的空調、照明，以及用水集中在展場跟庫房的一些區域，水電的需求一定都是一年比一年多，我們可以從這張表格看到，從111年度一直到113年度，這個電費的部分其實都是在往上漲。這部分因為我們的預算被刪減，現在文物是不是有可能會面臨所謂高風險被損壞的可能，這些文物如果有劣質化的狀況，請問這個責任到底是誰來擔？","另外，其實故宮也是深具指標性的國際級博物館，如果連這種基礎設施運作的最低門檻都沒有辦法得到水電經費足額的支持，有沒有可能會影響到我們修復計畫的推進，或者是環境監控設備的更新？甚至長遠來看，影響到國際當中的聲譽跟標準，院長怎麼看？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，我還是要跟大會及所有民眾做一個承諾，故宮既定的展場跟庫房所有的運作，我們都會繼續維持，這個部分不變。當然經費不足，我剛剛已經講過，就是我們的決算數已經超過預算數，不足的話它會用流用的方式，這也是不得已的一個方式，流用的推廣教育經費，我們會尋求另外的資源來支持。","有一點可能也是不得已的，就是本來我們北院的第二展覽館，在6月份的大都會展覽之後，我們本來有接續性的展覽，所以坦白講，我現在技術性地把它移到12月底，這樣起碼就是我有3個月時間的話，那個電費可以撙節下來。所以第二展覽館可能大都會展覽結束之後，就是到年底才會正式啟用，這是不得已的一個調控措施。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以現在已經在開始做調控的一個方法，包含我們的國外展覽等等。"],["蕭院長宗煌：展覽的部分絕對不會影響，正常的展覽跟庫房的保存維護絕對不會影響，我在這邊做保證。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們再來看，如果在預算緊縮的狀況，剛剛提到我們的國外展覽部分其實也面臨挑戰，這個部分應該是會面臨挑戰，因為我們原列預算數是297萬5,000元，刪減了178萬，等於是預算被刪減到60%。故宮今年不僅僅是要從日方東京富士美術館，以及九州國立博物館等等借入比較重量級的一些作品，我們也會分三批到法國跟捷克出展。在人力部分，我們當然希望能夠要求有專業人力往返，用比較高標準的人力資源，現在有沒有可能也因為這個部分而受到嚴重的挑戰？","我還記得，在去年，我相信在野黨委員到捷克拼外交的時候，對於我們故宮的文化走出去，其實他們是非常非常讚譽有加，當然也信誓旦旦地說絕對會……我們的國寶要出國展覽的時候，也會有專人保護的人力資源的幫助，就是有專人往返。但現今我們是不是有可能會面臨所謂出國預算被刪減而受到的影響？","另外還有南院的部分，馬來西亞藝術月借展的一個活動，我們跟故宮索資，但故宮回復給我們的是說預算數面臨中斷，在文化的部分，可能展覽部分也會受到影響。這個部分院長怎麼看？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我剛剛講了，捷克跟法國，基本上來講這是一個重大的國際交流活動，所以我們的經費完全都會控管保留，不會有影響。其他部分的話，譬如「千年神遇」，就是「西園雅集」跟東博借的兩件展品，然後跟Cernuschi借的展品，基本上依照國際的借展慣例都要親自去押運，所以這個部分當然我們會尋求不同的資源來支應，因為我們幾乎把故宮原來庫存的贊助款都掏空了，現在等於還是要跟外面尋求經費支援。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為押運往返其實也需要專業的人力。"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：如果在人力配置上我們不足的話，那是不是僅有的人力，他們也會比較辛苦、工作時間比較長，要改善他們的……"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，另外跟委員報告，的確有一個展覽現在受到影響，就是馬來西亞，因為馬來西亞原來的借展單位比較多，但是有一部分因為還沒有簽合約，所以基本上有些借展工作可能我們就停下來，然後跟中研院、臺博館、臺史博、國內的史前博物館，我們去借相關展品，就放棄跟國外借展品，然後用國內的展品來……"],["郭委員昱晴：直接用國內的。"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，所以……"],["郭委員昱晴：所以這的確已經受到影響。"],["蕭院長宗煌：這個展覽的確是有影響。其他的話，已經既定的、簽約的……"],["郭委員昱晴：不影響時程。"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們保證絕對都不受影響，我們會想辦法處理。"],["郭委員昱晴：的確，這個應該要想辦法。","另外，院長今年初也表示要另外找經費，儘量讓這些活動的影響層面縮小。我們要關切的是，故宮近3年，從111年度到113年度接受捐贈的收入是掛零！如果以這樣來看，因為故宮現行接受外界捐贈的處理要點已經明定了一個回饋機制，像展覽的廣告露出，另外是開幕酒會等等。但事實上這樣子的一個制度，有效轉為實際捐贈的成果，在這上面我們看到的是零，跟臺博館、國立歷史博物館的數據相比較的話，這個掛零是真的沒有這方面的捐贈成果，還是我們沒有把這個成果登錄進去？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，因為這些必須要報行政院，然後送立法院備查，也會在網站上登錄。這個部分我請同仁再確認一下，因為依據現在同仁給我的資料，111年、112年、113年都有捐贈的金額，而且都有單位，這個上面都有。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，再把確定的數字給我們辦公室，好嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為我們去看的時候，其實我們看到上面是0。"],["蕭院長宗煌：好。另外，因為這一次的「大美不言」把所有經費都投入到展場的設施，所以並沒有所謂的回饋，但是大都會的展覽的話，因為我們跟時藝多媒體合作，基本上就有一定的基本回饋跟售票的定額回饋，這個部分我們有在處理。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們當然也希望故宮要主動的去規劃、行銷及媒合一些機制，來吸引更多企業對這方面的贊助跟支持，不管是在文化的推廣或是在國際的推廣上，都可以讓世界看到我們故宮的美麗。"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員再補充，我們有一些經費是，譬如我們跟龍山寺合作，它是龍宮團體，就是讓弱勢、偏鄉族群的小朋友到故宮來參訪，這個經費是直接用在幫助小朋友來的車費、住宿等等，所以它不會單純列為捐贈金額放在裡面。"],["郭委員昱晴：了解，關於正確的數字，再麻煩提供給我們辦公室。"],["蕭院長宗煌：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝院長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員的質詢，院長請回座。","接下來有請鄭正鈐質詢。鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來有請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-9","speakers":["葛如鈞","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","林宜瑾","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","范雲","郭昱晴","陳冠廷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林沛祥","張雅琳"],"page_start":315,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00007"}}},{"id":"160781","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160781","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423693f661fba613121868b6df88a6e7dffcad78ea87b1712f8827c5064231c774fdb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"10:30:04 - 11:00:17","影片長度":"00:30:13","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場(廠)墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T10:30:04+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T11:00:17+08:00","duration":1813,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.544718750000001,"end":6.865343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.957843750000002,"end":12.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.41221875,"end":18.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.08721875,"end":56.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.30909375,"end":61.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.62909375,"end":60.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.62471875000001,"end":62.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.62034375,"end":63.750968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.750968750000006,"end":64.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.12221875,"end":64.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.18971875,"end":64.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.25284375000001,"end":66.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.97409375000001,"end":93.28221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.70409375000001,"end":129.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.76159375,"end":144.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.17284375,"end":151.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.82159375,"end":169.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.50221875,"end":173.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.38346875000002,"end":179.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.42909375000002,"end":182.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.09096875,"end":185.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.02721875,"end":187.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":187.96784375000001,"end":192.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.13159375,"end":193.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.49846875,"end":205.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.97346875000002,"end":208.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.55534375000002,"end":210.98534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.32284375,"end":211.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.63909375,"end":213.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.30971875,"end":217.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.48221875000002,"end":224.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.61596875,"end":234.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.89721875,"end":237.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.90096875,"end":240.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.55034375000002,"end":241.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.98034375,"end":244.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.71846875000003,"end":254.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.26534375000003,"end":259.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.48409375,"end":268.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.03534375000004,"end":278.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.62096875000003,"end":275.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.75159375000004,"end":275.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.31659375000004,"end":284.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.03721875,"end":284.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.22284375000004,"end":284.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.25659375000004,"end":284.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.27346875,"end":284.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.35784375000003,"end":284.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.59409375,"end":284.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.62784375,"end":285.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.13409375000003,"end":287.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.43346875000003,"end":288.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.05346875000004,"end":301.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.95846875,"end":309.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.78846875,"end":319.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.74034375,"end":322.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.03534375000004,"end":324.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.35159375,"end":332.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.24471875,"end":337.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.95284375,"end":353.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.03034375000004,"end":358.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.04659375,"end":360.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.95346875,"end":365.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.53909375,"end":370.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.65221875000003,"end":373.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":375.11159375,"end":389.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.99534375,"end":393.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":393.26909375,"end":394.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.65721875,"end":396.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":396.99846875000003,"end":397.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.36971875,"end":400.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":400.94721875000005,"end":401.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.25096875,"end":410.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":409.28346875000005,"end":409.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":410.78534375000004,"end":414.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.34596875000005,"end":415.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":415.89846875,"end":419.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":420.37034375,"end":428.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":429.70221875000004,"end":429.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.71909375,"end":431.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":430.02284375000005,"end":430.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":430.63034375,"end":431.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.74409375000005,"end":443.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":442.10534375000003,"end":442.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":443.64096875,"end":448.61909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":448.75409375000004,"end":450.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.80471875,"end":452.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":452.34846875000005,"end":456.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.20034375,"end":457.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":456.88784375,"end":467.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.79346875000005,"end":484.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.96784375000004,"end":486.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.12784375,"end":501.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.08346875,"end":504.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.52221875000004,"end":501.57284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.65721875,"end":501.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.57221875000005,"end":508.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.53784375000004,"end":511.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.69346875,"end":516.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.62534375,"end":517.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.8359687500001,"end":532.9265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":531.86346875,"end":535.6772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.93471875,"end":543.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":542.95034375,"end":548.3334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.03846875,"end":547.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.3334687500001,"end":612.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":548.7553437500001,"end":551.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.2522187500001,"end":609.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.8803437500001,"end":633.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.34784375,"end":618.5503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.37909375,"end":635.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.6909687500001,"end":638.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.30659375,"end":640.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.65221875,"end":650.5959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":646.17471875,"end":648.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":650.5959687500001,"end":655.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.3928437500001,"end":671.4197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":672.48284375,"end":675.3684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":677.2922187500001,"end":684.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.97471875,"end":699.6853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":700.03971875,"end":712.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":714.50159375,"end":716.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":716.9990937500002,"end":719.9015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.27284375,"end":728.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":730.11096875,"end":736.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":736.2534687500001,"end":749.4834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":749.8547187500001,"end":762.5615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":763.45596875,"end":764.6372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":766.57784375,"end":769.5815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.19346875,"end":769.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.5815937500001,"end":769.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":769.9697187500001,"end":770.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":770.03721875,"end":770.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":770.76284375,"end":770.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":771.31971875,"end":777.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":776.7197187500001,"end":791.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":792.44721875,"end":801.4753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":801.8803437500001,"end":813.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":813.65909375,"end":826.0790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":827.9522187500002,"end":829.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":829.7578437500001,"end":835.4953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":834.88784375,"end":836.2378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":836.2378437500001,"end":838.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":838.98846875,"end":847.2234687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":847.40909375,"end":848.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":847.6284687500001,"end":851.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":852.4040937500001,"end":853.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":853.9228437500001,"end":857.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":857.8715937500001,"end":859.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":859.64346875,"end":862.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":862.3603437500001,"end":862.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":862.46159375,"end":862.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":864.40221875,"end":868.4353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":869.36346875,"end":871.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":871.2703437500002,"end":878.0203437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":873.39659375,"end":873.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":873.43034375,"end":874.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":878.6615937500001,"end":879.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":879.21846875,"end":888.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":889.2084687500001,"end":898.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":898.59096875,"end":901.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":902.0334687500001,"end":903.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":904.4128437500001,"end":908.2434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":908.6484687500001,"end":924.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":925.28721875,"end":925.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":926.68784375,"end":960.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":962.0747187500001,"end":965.3315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":966.22596875,"end":975.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":975.6928437500001,"end":977.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":978.05534375,"end":978.8147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":979.5572187500002,"end":985.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":986.0034687500001,"end":993.1584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":993.96846875,"end":996.2634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":996.75284375,"end":1000.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1000.8872187500001,"end":1020.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1021.8628437500001,"end":1033.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1034.29971875,"end":1058.0597187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1058.4309687500001,"end":1072.9265937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1074.12471875,"end":1078.9847187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1079.45721875,"end":1079.9972187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1080.1322187500002,"end":1081.5497187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1082.02221875,"end":1106.6765937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1108.2122187500001,"end":1149.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1149.4715937500002,"end":1151.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1152.2222187500001,"end":1153.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1153.58909375,"end":1196.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1196.9409687500001,"end":1215.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1216.17846875,"end":1223.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1224.29534375,"end":1226.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1227.3328437500002,"end":1246.8909687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1247.38034375,"end":1256.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1257.0159687500002,"end":1259.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1259.49659375,"end":1262.6690937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1263.39471875,"end":1268.4065937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1270.2628437500002,"end":1271.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1271.41034375,"end":1274.5659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1274.80221875,"end":1277.5528437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1278.19409375,"end":1279.5272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1279.9490937500002,"end":1283.6953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1284.1509687500002,"end":1292.4365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1292.3184687500002,"end":1292.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1292.4365937500002,"end":1292.5884687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1292.5884687500002,"end":1296.9759687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1297.1278437500002,"end":1298.0559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1298.69721875,"end":1302.7303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1303.77659375,"end":1305.3797187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1305.9703437500002,"end":1313.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1314.0872187500001,"end":1317.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1317.85034375,"end":1326.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1326.9122187500002,"end":1356.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1358.6540937500001,"end":1364.7628437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1365.2859687500002,"end":1369.5215937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1370.44971875,"end":1372.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1372.0697187500002,"end":1375.5628437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1376.0184687500002,"end":1377.2334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1377.5034687500001,"end":1380.7603437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1381.51971875,"end":1390.2947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1391.1722187500002,"end":1394.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1394.32784375,"end":1395.0028437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1395.6947187500002,"end":1403.9803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1404.5034687500001,"end":1406.0728437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1407.6422187500002,"end":1418.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1421.17596875,"end":1422.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1425.2428437500002,"end":1426.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1426.3397187500002,"end":1435.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1438.05096875,"end":1447.2815937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1443.0459687500002,"end":1443.8897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1445.81346875,"end":1445.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1447.33221875,"end":1450.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1451.3484687500002,"end":1458.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1459.0772187500002,"end":1460.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1461.1022187500002,"end":1463.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1464.07221875,"end":1471.0753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1471.7503437500002,"end":1476.4078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1477.15034375,"end":1479.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1479.9009687500002,"end":1487.8997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1488.6084687500002,"end":1491.2915937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1491.51096875,"end":1495.8478437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1496.6240937500002,"end":1501.3153437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1498.3790937500003,"end":1498.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1501.3322187500003,"end":1514.7647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1515.0347187500001,"end":1515.0515937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1515.0853437500002,"end":1534.5759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1535.1497187500001,"end":1540.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1541.02221875,"end":1541.9165937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1542.84471875,"end":1543.1990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1544.11034375,"end":1551.0628437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1551.6197187500002,"end":1571.7009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1572.6965937500001,"end":1578.2315937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1578.9065937500002,"end":1579.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1580.10471875,"end":1580.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1581.6065937500002,"end":1595.4947187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1596.0853437500002,"end":1618.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1618.93409375,"end":1631.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1632.4003437500003,"end":1635.0328437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1635.3197187500002,"end":1644.6009687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1644.9722187500001,"end":1659.6028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1660.12596875,"end":1664.4628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1664.8847187500003,"end":1665.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1666.2684687500002,"end":1667.0447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1667.44971875,"end":1668.6478437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1668.96846875,"end":1668.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1668.98534375,"end":1669.0359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1669.0359687500002,"end":1673.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1673.3053437500002,"end":1677.1022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1674.5372187500002,"end":1674.5709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1674.5709687500002,"end":1675.4822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1675.88721875,"end":1676.0897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1677.5915937500001,"end":1677.6253437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1677.6253437500002,"end":1679.8865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1679.4309687500001,"end":1712.3540937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1713.1134687500003,"end":1713.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1713.14721875,"end":1715.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1715.4422187500002,"end":1720.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1721.56784375,"end":1723.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1723.5084687500002,"end":1726.2759687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1725.8540937500002,"end":1757.6465937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1757.86596875,"end":1759.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1760.0934687500003,"end":1761.7472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1762.23659375,"end":1767.9403437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1763.50221875,"end":1764.8690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1768.81784375,"end":1782.6890937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1782.60471875,"end":1788.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1788.7134687500002,"end":1791.3122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1792.6790937500002,"end":1794.9403437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1795.5984687500002,"end":1796.3409687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1796.94846875,"end":1798.3153437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1797.0497187500002,"end":1797.8597187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1798.4165937500002,"end":1805.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1805.6559687500003,"end":1808.1872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1808.1872187500003,"end":1810.5665937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1808.5753437500002,"end":1809.75659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.574,"end":9.874,"text":"謝謝主席 請紅部長"},{"start":18.153,"end":38.832,"text":"部長你好 大家都有談到營造業墜落打擊年 死亡人數要壓在68人以內最後你的墜落打擊年 去年一共有83名的工人墜落身亡"},{"start":39.753,"end":48.199,"text":"比你們原定目標68人 還高出很多很多然後呢 從2014到2023年的10年之間一共奪走了995條人命 佔所有...抱歉 還沒 還沒 OK"},{"start":65.29,"end":90.716,"text":"就是歷年的這個最弱的植栽件數奪走了這個995條人命佔所有營造業植栽死亡比例6到7成滋事體大那當然營造業是屬於這個高度的勞動密集還有兼具這個技術專業的產業工作環境是相當的複雜而且它的變異性非常的高在這種狀況裡面這個"},{"start":94.237,"end":116.505,"text":"發生率和嚴重度就植栽死亡或相較於其他的產業其實是相當嚴重所以今天大家都特別的提出來講那今天也有人講到英國新加坡和日本大家都談到說他們一樣的產業營造業的墜落致死率大概是四成那台灣的致死率就是六七成"},{"start":117.125,"end":143.563,"text":"六七成那根據這個2024年這個墜落死亡的83人當中建築工程就有50人那你們自己也有統計你們自己也有統計喔83個 去年死掉的83個裡面有71個罹難的勞工根本沒有接受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練"},{"start":145.236,"end":168.881,"text":"包括建築工程 土木工程和修繕工程其中又以建築業的工人最多83個死亡 去年死了83個有71個罹難的人完全沒有接受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練這會是你們去年所謂的營造業的最弱打擊年嗎你們在開玩笑 口號 口號"},{"start":174.434,"end":193.448,"text":"你們說在最弱打擊年結果發現死掉的裡面九成沒有受過任何的職業安全訓練這不 你不覺得這很荒謬嗎 部長會不會有一點太荒謬了確實現在有受過安全教育訓練的人數我覺得是有待提升的不是啦"},{"start":194.557,"end":205.044,"text":"你是最弱 防止最弱的打擊年你定一年是68個以內結果死了83個結果83個裡面有71個根本沒有受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練部長那我先問你喔你都不敢承認說這個問題很荒謬很離譜那我再問你如果斷定這個勞工已經受過教育訓練你們查核的機制是什麼"},{"start":225.663,"end":227.524,"text":"營造業的勞動災害這麼嚴重沒有受過任何這個教育訓練的離災的勞工比例超過九成結果40位的罹難者當中有三個這個數字很誇張"},{"start":246.083,"end":258.794,"text":"顧主沒有要求勞工接受訓練就讓他們上工這不是擺明了直接把他們送到死神的身邊的意思嗎你們怎麼去斷定有沒有受過你們怎麼查核"},{"start":259.514,"end":266.656,"text":"跟委員報告委員這個數據應該是我們的職業災害調查的時候發現這個罹災勞工我們問他的僱主他到任的時候當天有沒有對他做三個小時到六個小時的安全衛生教育訓練絕對沒有剛剛委員提到那個數字就是檢察員問了僱主以後僱主沒辦法提出說他有對他做六小時的教育訓練對那個都是不幸事件罹災之後"},{"start":288.123,"end":295.331,"text":"阿但你平時是怎麼樣去確認因為我們的安慰法 職業安全與衛生法第32條就講僱主有實施這個安慰教育和訓練的責任喔"},{"start":302.632,"end":317.384,"text":"那勞工有接受訓練的義務那我們的勞動部門行政部門到底是怎麼樣去確定而且你們是怎麼查核的沒有勞檢就沒有查核我們不用一條強制的強制回報的機制嗎"},{"start":321.142,"end":332.369,"text":"部長 法治病就是這樣寫 僱主有責任 勞工有義務但都沒有人在做 死了以後才發現金本高小英雄都不在這裡訓練過你們也都知道這個問題 你在墜落打擊年還這麼荒謬"},{"start":338.072,"end":353.738,"text":"你是罪弱打擊年欸如果你沒有標榜去年是營造業的罪弱打擊年還不夠荒謬你都宣稱是防止罪弱的打擊年結果還是這麼的荒謬啊這個是 這個政策是有效的嗎更不要講法律就在那裡所以這是一個契機啊保證 現在換你了啦輸定時不知道 沒辦法啦"},{"start":366.887,"end":389.292,"text":"這有沒有辦法變成一個查核的制度面的反省而且是強制要回報有沒有可能我們來研擬相關的機制那我們也會來提高坦白說我們也來提高那個因為其實包括有很多的工協會他其實也辦這些教育安全的講座坦白說他們也跟我們反映其實很多勞工參與的意願不高"},{"start":390.449,"end":399.013,"text":"勞工怎麼會有參與的意願要花自己的時間而且我們職業安全衛生法的責任是在雇主所以你剛剛回答就是錯誤了你在講勞工你推卸給勞工預防責任職責預防責任是雇主要使用雇主的時間而不是使用勞工的時間你這個觀念要好好的搞清楚我不是推卸給勞工不是啦你這個"},{"start":416.32,"end":427.525,"text":"觀念要搞清楚我剛剛那句話還沒講完我說他沒跟我反映勞工參與的意願就是他說他覺得他要花一天的時間坐在那個地方他想拿一天的時間去賺錢"},{"start":429.993,"end":447.371,"text":"這個我講錯了這一天就是僱主要給付工資然後勞工不用上工那六個小時要去上課然後他的僱主要給付工資你懂嗎委員我現在說的是說我們也在思考怎麼樣來提高相關的誘因"},{"start":451.255,"end":456.9,"text":"有一點改一下 我們也要 所以我的意思是說在這個狀況下 誘因就是雇主的工資照顧我們也要來提高 我們在思考怎麼提高讓勞工比較願意來參與這些安全訓練的誘因這是我們現在 你為什麼一直在講讓勞工有意願真正沒有意願的是雇主 雇主如果願意付薪水 讓勞工去上課"},{"start":476.438,"end":504.622,"text":"勞工何樂而不為呢現在你沒有薪水叫勞工花自己的時間去上課當然不想上課重點在這裡是 耿委員報告確實是雇主的責任那我們在目前在部裡面這邊也在協助如果勞工真的沒有時間去外面上白天的六小時課程現在我們有數位的課程數位的學習課程不是要問你有沒有薪水重點是有沒有薪水啦薪水啦"},{"start":505.595,"end":533.54,"text":"不要講那一些啦 有沒有薪水才是重點啦你叫他花勞工自己的時間還是要花僱主的時間幾戶薪水之後的時間這才是重點所以你們在這裡 我聽你們部長和署長的講話的方法好像聽起來就是勞工要花自己的時間花自己的 使出的時間又金錢就花自己的錢而這個跟我們職業安全率 不會花到勞工自己的錢"},{"start":534.46,"end":537.443,"text":"只有時間就是金錢你沒有談雇主的給付工資的責任的話那你就是叫勞工自己買單了這當然是雇主的責任然後我們會來強化要求雇主進行這個責任所以第一個會來要求雇主進行這個責任你們的訓練規則"},{"start":555.599,"end":565.143,"text":"職業安全衛生教育的訓練規則你們主要針對擔任不同工作的勞工依其工作性質接受在職訓練但你們在勞動及職業安全衛生的研究紀刊的今年的3月號你們自己的報導 紀刊裡面就報導教育訓練對營造業卻沒有最弱或高價作業單獨設立專門的實務訓練課程"},{"start":580.51,"end":584.295,"text":"訓練規則針對營造業、安全與衛生業務主管甲乙和丙種的罪惡危害危害的預防管理實務訓練只有規範2到3個小時而且這個訓練是給安慰就是安慰業務主管"},{"start":597.99,"end":604.136,"text":"沒有給落實到每一個上工的勞工沒有規範實務訓練的內容對整體的最弱預防教學品質有很大的落差所以現在講你們有對主管"},{"start":613.024,"end":627.034,"text":"事業單位的主管有這個課程上的訓練但是沒有針對勞工墜落預防有直接的訓練規定且課程時數也不夠更沒有實務的訓練課程這個是你們的紀刊自己寫的那我現在現在我剛剛講的"},{"start":637.021,"end":648.584,"text":"你可不可以再具體回答我們勞工去上課算誰的成本算誰的我們當然希望雇主來付啊那就好了你希望雇主怎麼個付法第一個是我們會來加強要求第二個是剛剛就像委員說的如果是加強要求我們希望"},{"start":657.307,"end":671.333,"text":"每一個僱主業者都要能夠落實安慰法第32條的僱主有責任勞工有義務接受教育訓練不要忘了83個死亡裡面有71個沒有任何的教育訓練死亡的 更不要講其他重傷重災的"},{"start":677.321,"end":699.031,"text":"是委員剛剛提到的那個課程裡面有一些速課部分我們在未來課程上的檢討設計上可以要求我今天都指出了制度面的問題你們要讓確保每一個上工的都受過教育訓練特別是營造業的最弱打擊年成為口號之後那你們我沒有要求你更多的你至少這個"},{"start":700.111,"end":711.936,"text":"要百分之百做得到吧那其實不好意思再講其實不只是營造業高空墜落還有另外一個產業另外一個行業哪一個行業你知道嗎其實我也總諮詢過你們就只想到營造業冷氣空調安裝業冷氣空調計施案安裝工人一樣比營造業的工人還更命懸一線"},{"start":730.148,"end":748.986,"text":"你知道在2010到2022年的9月之間也是差不多10出頭年冷氣師傅裝設或者是修繕裡面有40位是因為裝設和修繕冷氣死亡40個死亡裡面有27個是高空墜落死亡"},{"start":749.987,"end":762.078,"text":"所以大概冷氣裝修師傅死亡比例裡面有67%都是要去幫人家裝冷氣 修冷氣 高空 墜落 滾落造成失能和死亡署長你知道嗎跟委員報告這一塊我們也非常重視也很重視 那你們做了什麼"},{"start":771.483,"end":775.808,"text":"我們有跟那個內政部這邊國土署針對在建築基礎規範裡面在源頭裡面那個不要再講因為那是我去總質詢要求的新的建築物的建築這個規範要有一個裝設冷氣的空間讓維修和裝設有安全的環境但是"},{"start":792.509,"end":800.455,"text":"我 你沒有講的 我也沒有主動在提的那舊的建築物咧 現在舊的建築占99%那是新設的建築 新蓋的建築有受到因為我們額總諮詢之後的建築規範了可是現在所有安裝冷氣的九成九"},{"start":813.766,"end":825.662,"text":"都是舊的沒有規範的而現在還在命懸一線的這一些冷氣空調祭司命懸一線在那裡高空墜落死亡率這麼高的那你們做了什麼"},{"start":827.984,"end":849.27,"text":"你們做了什麼預防跟委員說委員剛剛其實提到很多點我們其實都覺得確實有檢討我講來你們才想到而且都是關於如何真正的能夠落實所以我會來要求我們的治安署對於落實的強制的機制我覺得可以檢討連冷氣裝設空調裝設你們"},{"start":852.472,"end":862.464,"text":"你們很難為什麼你知道嗎很難為什麼你知道嗎你們不知道因為很多都是自營業者是啊我說你就知道我告訴你你都沒想到自營業者"},{"start":869.4,"end":887.73,"text":"那你們要怎麼樣去落實他有什麼動機要去教養訓練那你們要刻意他自己或是他的雇主在維修或裝修的時候就有的沒有任何卡路整疊破空中的他要怎麼去修理你知道他們多可憐嗎"},{"start":889.281,"end":899.971,"text":"委員我這邊說就是說剛剛其實講這些事情都是落實如何落實甚至要不要有強制機制的問題我覺得這部分我們會來請請治安署來針對強制的機制來進行規劃跟研擬"},{"start":904.451,"end":924.582,"text":"要專案去處理我現在跟你講的意思是說現在忘記到了冷氣裝修的忘記到了很多人是說這麼危險看了很多人就說我不做了但也很多人是非做不可然後他只能說我要多加三千五千或八千的這個危險加急各位啊部長啊"},{"start":926.704,"end":932.487,"text":"交了五千八千給你去做那個高空沒有任何防護然後危險度極高的這個裝飾或者是維修又就買斷了這一個責任然後就把這個風險默默的吞下去五千塊八千塊給你叫你去維修裝飾半空中沒有任何卡路沒有任何安全防護措施的這個冷氣空調"},{"start":955.401,"end":960.523,"text":"你願意嗎 署長你願意嗎 部長你願意嗎可是他沒有辦法耶 他必須要耶沒有安全帶 沒有扣環 沒有錨定點其他也必須要一些安全設施預防啊可是沒有錨定點 沒有安全扣環沒有任何的可以保護他可掛飾的這個錨定點 通通都沒有耶怎麼辦"},{"start":979.608,"end":992.669,"text":"阿你為了說一個你才去想到說一個你才去想到連署長都不知道你就想到我質詢總質詢說要求新蓋的建築物要有一個裝設的空間那是新的 那舊的怎麼辦"},{"start":993.985,"end":1018.217,"text":"通通都沒有那我再跟你講喔這個問題很嚴重我再講回來高空墜落和建築業去年的聖誕節台北市一個搭建跨年舞台的男性工作人員從20米高的七樓層高的鷹架上摔落馬上當場死亡勞檢調查說沒有確實佩戴安全帶僱主也沒有設立安全網這種狀況很離譜"},{"start":1021.909,"end":1032.406,"text":"依據我們的職業安全衛生設施規則兩公尺以上就必須要安全防墜落的這個措施了可是都沒有本規則還是過足"},{"start":1035.647,"end":1056.361,"text":"這個職業安全設施規則還是讓僱主要負起勞工安全設備及措施的最低標準如果僱主連最低標準都不願意做 都沒有做你還能奢望僱主改善他的其他的作業場所然後去預防勞工發生職災嗎"},{"start":1060.203,"end":1071.441,"text":"所以我們剛剛看到工地外的篱笆印著安全第一的口號但是僱主通通都沒有落實這個確保勞工遵守安全規則的責任僱主"},{"start":1074.178,"end":1092.761,"text":"雇主也有責任雇主有預防責任但是勞工也有遵守的責任然後在這種狀況管理有時候勞工的這個安全意識薄弱的話未圖方便有時候也沒有依照安全程序進行作業然後"},{"start":1093.982,"end":1105.671,"text":"管理人員沒有盡到監督的責任沒有監督要求這個勞工遵守正確安全的步驟所以意外總是會來臨那我現在要講這個是"},{"start":1108.64,"end":1132.701,"text":"很多從事營建工作的勞工有時候都會按照自己的意識執行作業而且不知道這種施工方法具有發生職災的風險很高發生職災的原因有時候是因為設備或環境處於不安全的狀況有時候是沒有顧主的預防該有的設施設備但是其中一部分是勞工也有很大一部分是沒有安全的"},{"start":1133.762,"end":1145.271,"text":"這個植栽預防的意識這個就說明了教育訓練多麼重要而剛好恰巧的政府對於要上工就要教育訓練是相對的頗為的輕忽啦那我現在講說這個"},{"start":1152.316,"end":1174.313,"text":"其實歷年的職災案例分析 發生墜落事故的原因和因素發生的情境都具有高度的相似性大家高空墜落 大家觀音都一樣像是施工架 水平支撐 模板支撐 鋼構作業及電梯井料口的作業其中造成這個關鍵的墜落災害的原因可能包含"},{"start":1175.053,"end":1182.061,"text":"這些架構配置不當本體防護不足或沒有安全的措施而這些防護措施的性能和強度嚴重不足那我接下來要講還有一個就是工人流轉在不同的工地這個營造業最明顯的典型就是流動率高承攬外包層層轉移"},{"start":1197.798,"end":1214.01,"text":"然後不斷一層又一層的分包下去外包的生態也讓他們的權益和安全也在層層外包之下被轉嫁了而且都是工地層層轉包下的吸收品而建築業就是層層轉包一層又一層那我們都知道風險就是這樣的被移轉很多時候我們安慰法的確有講到"},{"start":1224.649,"end":1246.595,"text":"即便那一轉他的補償責任還在但是他的賠償責任也在他也具有跟最終雇主的責任一樣但是因為沒有刑責沒有任何的刑責所以工地最有資本最雄厚的那個起造單位那個營造單位其實他們也不太重視雖然有"},{"start":1247.455,"end":1258.687,"text":"有賠償和補償的連帶責任但是不一定會害怕因為不一定會發生僥倖的心態在這種狀況所以有時候就付一點錢但是我們意思是說這個問題知識體大那我現在要跟你講有時候就是你看一下這個圖"},{"start":1270.462,"end":1297.782,"text":"你覺得工地夥伴安全第一其實我很不忍心對勞工這樣子指出他們的問題但是真的是中午休息太熱了而且很多工地的福利社聽說在工地附近的便利商店他們的一餐就是這樣子買了啤酒配他的便當就這樣子喝然後一年"},{"start":1298.763,"end":1312.659,"text":"其實我很不願意說你要去查可是喝了酒上工然後管理監督人員勞工沒有安全意識的概念管理監督人員也不管這麼多"},{"start":1314.147,"end":1342.548,"text":"那可是這有沒有影響這有沒有影響所以是不是顯示我不願意苛責於勞工啊就是說營造廠商的工地安全的管理的確存在著很多可以改進的空間那怎麼去解決勞工安全意識不足的問題如果雇主你在乎重視作業安全如果你雇主你在乎植栽的預防"},{"start":1343.869,"end":1369.326,"text":"那會放任你的勞工這樣子做 中午就喝酒喝完酒就上工 然後到高空上作業然後讓公安事故 職災的風險 就這樣子一直提高上去嗎部長 你對於這個照片 你有什麼感想這是普遍的狀況 這不是特例你到立法院去 附近中午休息就是這樣子 普遍的狀況 隨便拍都有"},{"start":1370.492,"end":1389.344,"text":"部長你做個感想這當然看起來是安全意識這當然是安全意識是有待加強的有待加強雇主有責任管理階層也有責任如果雇主真的在乎那勞工沒有安全意識難道不應該給他們好的教育安全教育和訓練嗎"},{"start":1391.229,"end":1418.283,"text":"如果政府做不到然後政府也管不了然後失能死亡的比例還是這麼高那我就建議我們比照新加坡來新加坡的模式來放給大家看它有一個SNAP SAFE檢舉挽救生命你看他們的官方的網頁它是一個報告平台舉報不安全的工作場所行為可以挽救生命"},{"start":1421.189,"end":1421.949,"text":"他從2021年起每年都會推行這個全國性的工作場所的安全衛生運動你給他簡單快速的"},{"start":1438.086,"end":1462.699,"text":"你知不知你能够简单报告职业侮辱通过联邦政府网站的网页吗?为了开始,请选择这个链接,或检查这个QR码,你能够报告各种各样的问题,例如职业法规则,职业安全和健康规则或缺失,非法职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或职业或�"},{"start":1464.127,"end":1469.459,"text":"例如,如果您遇到一个不安全的职业案,您可以在这里报告,选择职业安全和健康犯罪或缺陷。"},{"start":1471.783,"end":1494.499,"text":"您也可以通过这个链接直接到同一页去报告工作安全和健康问题。什么是工作安全和健康问题?一个不安全的工作案是当一个职员在工作上执行一项任务,对他们的健康或安全的威胁,或当工作室的状况可能会造成伤害。这可以包括不被接受安全管理的计划,缺乏个人保护装备,或是家庭保护导致的旅行伤害。"},{"start":1496.664,"end":1501.388,"text":"好 我就要講就是說新加坡政府有心要作為所以他們在2024年的你們在高空墜落房打擊年人家也在做回報救命運動"},{"start":1515.18,"end":1530.072,"text":"然後他要雇主勞工和人民一起來回報雇主有什麼責任?雇主要建立內部通報以預防事故發生要賦予勞工大聲可以講出不安全情況的權利當勞工報告不安全情況時要立即減輕風險要表彰回報的勞工啊部長你知道其實我們我們在法律上早就有了就是這個概念這個概念"},{"start":1544.496,"end":1571.476,"text":"當勞工 我現在講這僱主責任接下來勞工責任當勞工發現不安全的情況時應採取暫停拍照 然後回報的動作向僱主或工會報告不安全的狀況勞工就可以直接使用剛剛講SnapSafe的網站隨時上傳不安全的狀況只需要填寫說明上傳照片及基本資料就可以完成上傳甚至也有參考虛驚事件的報告指引"},{"start":1572.731,"end":1580.369,"text":"那我要講這個 這個跟我們的安慰法哪一個概念也有我們其實在母法上也有退避權 退避權"},{"start":1583.013,"end":1604.498,"text":"我們連法律工具都有但是我們就缺少政府一個這種全民一起來真的確實要打擊植栽降低植栽風險的決心那他不是雇主勞工欸新加坡連民眾都可以回報救命運動當中人民要扮演重要的角色"},{"start":1605.538,"end":1630.673,"text":"人民發現生活周邊出現不安全的狀況時也可以使用SnapSafe的網站上自己上傳照片按說明為職災預防 每個人都盡一己之力然後也可以下載海報這個張貼與工作場所鼓勵更多人參加回報救命運動所以新加坡是這樣子在職災發生前 我們都知道職災啊預防更勝於事後的補償"},{"start":1632.455,"end":1651.364,"text":"所以在發生前要及時上傳 及時處理新加坡政府是用這樣的決心破例 這樣防圍杜鑒人家建立起來 降低吃災的決心和真正的作為而且真的有成效而台灣的政府做什麼我現在講 如果政府做不到 那你就給我們一個網頁"},{"start":1653.025,"end":1672.382,"text":"讓雇主也來 勞工也來 全民大家一起來降低我們的植栽發生率啦所以真正的就是不安全回報全民運動這才是真正的重點啦 保長你感覺到嗎有辦法嗎 部長可以評估一下嗎好 謝謝 評估一下 只是評估一下我還沒再問你一個"},{"start":1677.806,"end":1681.688,"text":"評估完之後一個月的回報這樣好嗎蔣萬安市長他說以後台北市公安那個高空墜落很多所以他在公安都的匯報說以後墜落發生的時候工地至少停工半個月或一個月而且要透過事故註記沒有所謂改善就馬上復工的你對這個事情他把處罰強度增強"},{"start":1701.078,"end":1719.078,"text":"沒有書面送報告就可以復工的沒有改善後就立刻復工的而且要停工至少半個月一個月你覺得呢你對他這種處罰強度的增強有什麼看法跟文說明其實對於停工其實沒有我跟書裡面說了"},{"start":1721.781,"end":1736.806,"text":"該停工的 尤其是過去紀錄上面這個前科雷的我再講這個 我再問你說他把強度拉高了而且依照你們的停工辦法只要改善簡頌書面報告就可以復工你覺得這麼easy嗎"},{"start":1738.487,"end":1767.147,"text":"如果有死亡案件可以檢送書面報告就復工嗎如果有死亡案件的話那這樣子就改善就可以馬上復工嗎當台北市地方政府宣示你如果有我就一律半個月一個月才准復工看你有辦法安裝看你有這個關係要跟政府拚嗎這樣子的話你有什麼看法我可以再問你以往我們這種死亡案件從停工到復工平均時間多長"},{"start":1768.991,"end":1791.113,"text":"跟委員報告我們最近也在檢討這個停復工的要點如果是嚴重性的一個重大災害不是說半個月或一個月復工是整體改善甚至經過三四次的審查才會讓他復工那你都沒有書面嗎你要把書面審查如果有死亡案件書面審查就可以這個要件拿掉然後我問你過去都是停多久平均啊"},{"start":1792.728,"end":1809.878,"text":"一個死亡案件都停復工這樣都停多久你不要講得這麼好聽啦我們是不是在提供一個數據因為不同的情節因為有到火災爆炸有的是墜落所以這個部分可能我們要提供數據好 那你就把詳細資料簡附給我們看一下好 謝謝林委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":502,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時30分）謝謝主席。是不是請我們的洪部長？"],["主席：有請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長你好。大家都有談到營造業墜落打擊年死亡人數要壓在68人以內，你的墜落打擊年去年一共有83名工人墜落身亡，比你們原訂目標68人還高出很多、很多。從2014到2023年10年之間，歷年墜落的職災件數一共奪走995條人命，占所有營造業職災死亡比例六到七成茲事體大，當然營造業是屬於高度勞動密集還有兼具技術專業的產業，工作環境是相當複雜而且變異性非常高，在這種狀況裡面職災死亡相較於其他的產業其實是相當嚴重，所以今天大家都特別提出，今天也有人講到英國、新加坡和日本，大家都談到一樣的產業，他們營造業的墜落致死率大概是四成，臺灣的致死率是六、七成，2024年墜落死亡的83人當中，建築工程就有50人，你們自己也有統計，去年死亡的83個裡面有71個罹難的勞工根本沒有接受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練，包括建築工程、土木工程和修繕工程，其中又以建築業的工人最多。去年死了83個，有71個罹難者完全沒有接受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練，這就是你們去年所謂的營造業的墜落打擊年嗎？你們在開玩笑！口號！口號！你們說墜落打擊年結果發現死者裡面九成沒有受過任何的職業安全訓練，你不覺得這很荒謬嗎？部長，會不會有一點太荒謬？"],["洪部長申翰：確實現在有受過安全教育訓練的人數，我覺得是有待提升。"],["林委員淑芬：不是。你是防止墜落的打擊年，你訂一年是68個以內結果死了83個，而且83個裡面有71個根本沒有受過任何的安全衛生教育訓練。部長，我先問你，你都不敢承認這個問題很荒謬、很離譜。我再問你如何斷定勞工已經受過教育訓練，你們查核的機制是什麼？營造業的勞動災害這麼嚴重，沒有受過任何教育訓練罹災的勞工比例超過九成，結果40位的罹難者當中有3個，這個數字很誇張。雇主沒有要求勞工接受訓練就讓他們上工，這不是擺明直接把他們送到死神的身邊嗎？你們怎麼斷定有沒有受過訓練？你們怎麼查核？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，委員的這個數據應該是我們職業災害調查的時候，我們問罹災勞工的雇主，他到任當天有沒有對他做3個小時到6小時的安全衛生教育訓練。"],["林委員淑芬：絕對沒有。"],["林署長毓堂：剛剛委員提那個數字，就是檢查員問了雇主以後，雇主沒辦法提出有對他做6小時的教育訓練。"],["林委員淑芬：對，那個都是不幸事件罹災之後……"],["林署長毓堂：是、是、是。"],["林委員淑芬：但你平時是怎麼樣去確認？因為職業安全衛生法第三十二條就講雇主有實施安衛教育和訓練的責任，勞工有接受訓練的義務，那我們勞動行政部門到底怎樣確定，而且你們是怎麼查核的？沒有勞檢就沒有查核？我們不用一條強制回報的機制嗎？部長，法制面就是這樣寫，雇主有責任，勞工有義務，但都沒有人在做，死了以後才發現根本九成以上都沒做過訓練，你們也都知道這個問題，你在墜落打擊年還這麼荒謬，如果你沒有標榜去年是營造業的墜落打擊年還不夠荒謬，你都宣稱是防止墜落的打擊年，結果還是這麼荒謬！這個政策是有效的嗎？更不要講法律就在那裡，所以這是一個契機。部長，現在換你了，署長不知道，也沒辦法啦！這有沒有辦法變成一個查核制度面的反省，而且是強制要回報，有沒有可能？"],["洪部長申翰：我們來研擬相關的機制，我們也會來提高……因為包括很多的公協會，其實有辦這些教育安全的講座，坦白說，他們也跟我們反映，其實很多勞工參與的意願不高。"],["林委員淑芬：勞工要花自己的時間怎麼會有參與的意願？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["林委員淑芬：而且我們職業安全衛生法的責任是在雇主，所以你剛剛回答就是錯誤了，你在講勞工，你推卸給勞工。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我不是……"],["林委員淑芬：職災預防責任是雇主，要使用雇主的時間，而不是使用勞工的時間，你這個觀念要好好搞清楚。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我不是推卸給勞工。"],["林委員淑芬：不是，你這個觀念要搞清楚。"],["洪部長申翰：我剛剛那句話還沒講完，他們也跟我反映勞工參與的意願不高，就是他覺得要花一天的時間坐在那個地方，他想拿一天的時間去賺錢。"],["林委員淑芬：這又講錯了。"],["洪部長申翰：所以……"],["林委員淑芬：這一天就是雇主要給付工資，然後勞工不用上工，那6個小時要去上課，而他的雇主要給付工資，你懂嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我現在說的是我們也在思考怎樣來提高相關的誘因。"],["林委員淑芬：你的觀念可能要稍微改一下。"],["洪部長申翰：我的意思是說，在這個狀況下……"],["林委員淑芬：誘因就是雇主的工資照付。"],["洪部長申翰：我們在思考怎麼提高讓勞工比較願意來參與職業安全訓練的誘因，這是我們現在正在做的事情。"],["林委員淑芬：你為什麼一直在講讓勞工有意願？真正沒有意願的是雇主，雇主如果願意付薪水讓勞工去上課，勞工何樂而不為呢？現在你沒有薪水，叫勞工花自己的時間去上課，當然不想上課，重點在這裡。"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，確實是雇主的責任，我們目前在部裡面也在協助，如果勞工真的沒有時間去外面上白天的6小時課程，現在我們有數位的學習課程，他可以線上……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要問你有沒有薪水，重點是有沒有薪水？薪水啦！不要講那一些，有沒有薪水才是重點，你叫勞工花自己的時間，還是要花雇主給付薪水之後的時間，這才是重點。我聽你們部長和署長講話的方法，好像聽起來就是勞工要花自己的時間，如果時間就是金錢，就是花自己的錢，而這個跟我們職業安全衛生……"],["洪部長申翰：我們不會花到勞工自己的錢，我們現在……"],["林委員淑芬：時間就是金錢，你沒有談雇主的給付工資的責任的話，那你就是叫勞工自己買單。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，這當然是雇主的責任，我們會強化要求雇主去負這個責任。"],["林委員淑芬：預防責任！"],["洪部長申翰：第一個會來要求這個責任。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你今天再講下去，你就是硬拗了。你們職業安全衛生教育的訓練規則，你們主要針對擔任不同工作的勞工，依其工作性質接受在職訓練，但你們在勞動職業安全衛生的研究季刊今年的3月號，你們自己季刊裡面就報導，教育訓練對營造業沒有墜落或高架作業單獨設立專門的實務訓練課程，訓練規則針對營造業安全與衛生業務主管甲、乙和丙種墜落危害的預防管理實務訓練只有規範2到3個小時，而且這個訓練是給安衛業務主管，沒有落實到每一個上工的勞工，沒有規範實務訓練的內容，對整體的墜落預防教學品質有很大的落差，所以，你們有對事業單位的主管有課程上的訓練，但是沒有針對勞工墜落預防有直接的訓練規定，且課程時數也不夠，更沒有實務的訓練課程，這個是你們的季刊自己寫的。我剛剛講的事情，你可不可以再具體回答，勞工去上課，成本算誰的？"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然希望雇主來付。"],["林委員淑芬：那就好了，你希望雇主怎麼個付法？"],["洪部長申翰：第一個是我們會來加強要求，第二個是剛剛就像委員說的，如果相關的課程……"],["林委員淑芬：不是加強要求，我們希望每一個雇主、業者都能夠落實安衛法第三十二條的雇主有責任，勞工有義務接受教育訓練，而不要忘了83個死亡裡面有71個沒有任何的教育訓練，這是死亡的更不要講其他重傷、重災的。"],["林署長毓堂：委員剛剛提到的課程裡面，有些術科的部分，我們在未來課程上會檢討，設計上可以要求……"],["林委員淑芬：我今天都指出制度面的問題，你們要確保每一個上工的都受過教育訓練，特別是營造業的墜落打擊年成為口號之後，我沒有要求你更多的事情，你至少這個要百分之百做得到吧？其實我也不好意思再講，不只是營造業，高空墜落還有另外一個行業，哪一個行業你知道嗎？我也總質詢過，你們就只想到營造業，冷氣空調安裝業的冷氣空調技師、安裝工人比營造業的工人還更命懸一線，你知道在2010到2022年9月之間，也是差不多十幾年，冷氣師傅裝設或是修繕裡面，有40位是因為裝設和修繕冷氣死亡，40個死亡裡面有27個是高空墜落死亡，所以冷氣裝修師傅死亡比例有67%都是要去幫人家裝冷氣、修冷氣高空墜落、滾落造成失能和死亡，署長，你知道嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，這一塊我們也非常重視。"],["林委員淑芬：你很重視，那你們做了什麼？"],["林署長毓堂：我們有跟內政部國土署針對在建築技術規則裡面，在源頭裡面都要有一些圖說……"],["林委員淑芬：那個不要再講，因為那是我在總質詢要求的，新的建築物的規範要有一個裝設冷氣的空間，讓維修和裝設有安全的環境。但是你沒有講，我也沒有主動再提，那舊的建築物呢？現在舊的建築占99%，新蓋的建築因為我總質詢之後有受到建築規範了，可是現在所有安裝冷氣九成九都是舊的建物，沒有規範的建物，而現在還在命懸一線這一些冷氣空調技師在那裡施工，高空墜落死亡率這麼高，那你們做了什麼預防？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說，委員剛剛其實提了很多點，我們都覺得確實有檢討空間。"],["林委員淑芬：我講完你們才想到。"],["洪部長申翰：而且都是如何真正能夠落實，所以我會來要求職安署，對於落實強制的機制，我覺得可以檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，連冷氣裝設、空調裝設，你們很難要求，為什麼你知道嗎？你們不知道，因為很多都是自營業者。"],["洪部長申翰：是阿！"],["林委員淑芬：我講你就知道，我沒問你都沒想到。","對於自營業者，你們要怎樣去落實？他有什麼動機要去加強訓練？你們要靠他自己或是他的雇主在維修或裝設的時候，舊有建物沒有任何「腳路」，裝在半空中的，他們要怎麼去修理？你知道他們多可憐嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，剛剛講的這些事情是都是如何落實，甚至要不要有強制機制的問題，我覺得這部分，我們會請職安署針對強制的機制來進行規劃跟研擬。"],["林委員淑芬：要專案去處理。我現在跟你講的意思是，現在冷氣裝設的旺季到了，很多人說這麼危險，很多人看了就說不做了，但也有很多人是非做不可，然後他只能說他要多加3,000、5,000或8,000的危險加給。各位啊！部長啊！加了5,000、8,000給你去做高空沒有任何防護、危險度極高的裝設或者是維修，就買斷了這一個責任，然後就把風險默默的吞下去，5,000元、8,000元給你，叫你去維修、裝設半空中沒有任何「腳路」、沒有任何安全防護措施的冷氣空調，你願意嗎？署長你願意嗎？部長你願意嗎？可是他沒有辦法，他必須要，沒有安全帶、沒有扣環、沒有錨定點，其實他也必須要有一些安全設施做預防，可是沒有錨定點、沒有安全扣環、沒有任何可以保護他可掛式的錨定點，通通都沒有，怎麼辦？要立委說一下，你才會去想到；說一下，你才會去想到，連署長都不知道，你就想到我總質詢要求新蓋的建築物，要有一個裝設的空間，那是新的，那麼舊的怎麼辦？通通都沒有。","我再跟你講，這個問題很嚴重，再講回來高空墜落和建築業。去年的聖誕節，臺北市一個搭建跨年舞臺的男性工作人員從20米高、7樓層高的鷹架上摔落，馬上當場死亡，勞檢調查指出沒有確實佩戴安全帶，雇主也沒有設立安全網，這種狀況很離譜，依據我們的職業安全衛生設施規則，兩公尺以上就必須要有安全防墜落的措施了，可是都沒有，職業安全設施規則還是讓雇主要負起勞工安全設備及措施的最低標準，如果雇主連最低標準都不願意做、都沒有做，你還能奢望雇主改善他的其他的作業場所，預防勞工發生職災嗎？所以我們剛剛常常看到工地外的籬笆印著「安全第一」的口號，但是雇主通通都沒有落實確保勞工遵守安全規則的責任，雇主有預防責任，但是勞工也有遵守的責任。","在這種狀況下，勞工的安全意識薄弱的話，為圖方便，有時候也沒有依照安全程序進行作業，管理人員沒有盡到監督的責任，沒有監督要求勞工遵守正確安全的步驟，所以意外總是會來臨。我現在要講的是，很多從事營建工作的勞工，有時候都會按照自己的意識執行作業，而且不知道這種施工方法具有發生職災的風險很高。發生職災的原因，有時候是因為設備或環境處於不安全的狀況，有時候是雇主沒有預防所該有的設施設備，但是其中一部分是勞工，也有很大一部分勞工是沒有安全職災預防的意識，這就說明了教育訓練多麼重要，而剛好、恰巧政府對於要上工就要教育訓練是相對的頗為輕忽。我現在要講的是，其實歷年的職災案例分析，發生墜落事故的原因和因素，發生的情境都具有高度的相似性，大家高空作業原因都一樣，像是施工架水平支撐、模板支撐、鋼構作業及電梯井料口的作業，其中造成墜落災害的關鍵原因，可能包含這些架構配置不當、本體防護不足或沒有安全的措施，而這些防護措施的性能和強度嚴重不足。我接下來要講，還有一個就是工人流轉在不同的工地，營造業最明顯的典型就是流動率高，承攬外包層層轉移，不斷一層又一層的分包下去，外包的生態也讓他們的權益和安全在層層外包之下被轉嫁了，而且都是工地層層轉包下的犧牲品，而建築業就是層層轉包，一層又一層，我們都知道風險就是這樣被移轉，安衛法的確有講到即便他移轉，他的補償責任還在，他的賠償責任也在，他也具有跟最終雇主的責任一樣，但是因為沒有刑責，沒有任何的刑責，所以工地最有資本、資本最雄厚的起造單位、營造單位，其實他們也不太重視，雖然有賠償和補償的連帶責任，但是不一定會害怕，因為不一定會發生，僥倖的心態在這種狀況，所以有時候就付一點錢，但是我們的意思是，這個問題茲事體大。","我現在要跟你講，你看一下這個圖，「工地夥伴安全第一」，其實我很不忍心對勞工這樣子指出他們的問題，但是真的是中午休息太熱了，而且很多工地的福利社，聽說在工地附近的便利商店，他們的一餐就是這樣子，買了啤酒配他的便當，就這樣子喝。其實我很不願意說你要去查，可是喝了酒上工，勞工沒有安全意識的概念，管理監督人員也不管這麼多，可是這有沒有影響？我不願苛責勞工，但這是不是顯示營造廠商工地安全的管理的確存在著很多可以改進的空間，那麼怎麼去解決勞工安全意識不足的問題？如果雇主在乎重視作業安全，如果雇主在乎職災的預防，哪會放任你的勞工這樣子做，中午就喝酒，喝完酒就上工，然後到高空上作業，讓工安事故職災的風險就這樣子一直提高上去嗎？部長，你對於這個照片有什麼感想？這是普遍的狀況，這不是特例，你到立法院附近，中午休息就是這樣子，普遍的狀況，隨便拍都有。部長，你作何感想？"],["洪部長申翰：這看起來當然是安全意識是有待加強的。"],["林委員淑芬：有待加強，雇主有責任，管理階層也有責任，如果雇主真的在乎，勞工沒有安全意識，難道不應該給他們好的教育、安全教育和訓練嗎？如果政府做不到，然後政府也管不了，失能、死亡的比例還是這麼高，那麼我就建議我們比照新加坡，把新加坡的模式放給大家看，他有一個SnapSAFE檢舉挽救生命，你看他們的官方網頁，它是一個報告平臺，舉報不安全的工作場所、行為可以挽救生命。他從2021年起，每年都會推行全國性的工作場所安全衛生運動，影片中提到全民一起來，不仰賴政府。","（播放影片）"],["林委員淑芬：沒關係，這個待會大家上網看。我最後要講，新加坡政府有心要作為，所以在2024年，你們是推高空墜落打擊年，人家也在做回報救命運動，然後他們要雇主、勞工和人民一起來回報，雇主有什麼責任？雇主要建立內部通報以預防事故發生，要賦予勞工可以大聲講出不安全情況的權利，當勞工報告不安全情況時要立即減輕風險、要表彰回報的勞工。部長，你知道其實我們在法律上早就有了這個概念。現在講的這個是雇主的責任，接下來是勞工的責任，當勞工發現不安全的情況時，應採取暫停、拍照、回報的動作，向雇主或工會報告不安全的狀況，勞工就可以直接使用剛剛講的SnapSAFE網站，隨時上傳不安全的狀況，只需要填寫說明、上傳照片及基本資料就可以完成上傳，甚至也有參考虛驚事件報告指引。","我要講的是，這個跟我們的安衛法哪一個概念也有，我們其實在母法上也有退避權，部長，你知道退避權嗎？我們連法律工具都有，但是我們就缺少政府這種全民一起來，真的確實要打擊職災、降低職災風險的決心。他不是雇主、勞工，新加坡連民眾都可以回報，在救命運動當中，人民要扮演重要的角色，當人民發現生活周邊出現不安全的狀況時，也可以使用SnapSAFE網站，自己上傳照片和說明，為職災預防，每個人都盡一己之力，然後也可以下載海報張貼於工作場所，鼓勵更多人參加回報救命運動，所以新加坡是這樣子做，在職災發生前，我們都知道職災預防更勝於事後的補償，所以在發生前要及時上傳、及時處理。新加坡政府是用這樣的決心、魄力、這樣防微杜漸，人家建立起來降低職災的決心和真正的作為，而且真的有成效，而臺灣的政府做什麼？我現在要講，如果政府做不到，那你就給我們一個網頁，讓雇主也來、勞工也來，全民大家一起來降低我們的職災發生率，所以真正的就是不安全回報全民運動，這才是真正的重點啦！部長，你覺得有辦法嗎？"],["主席：部長可以評估一下嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：好，我們來評估一下。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["林委員淑芬：評估一下？只是評估一下？我再問你一個……"],["主席：評估完之後，一個月內回報，這樣好不好？"],["林委員淑芬：蔣萬安市長說，臺北市的高空墜落案件很多，所以他在公安督導會報說，以後墜落發生的時候，工地至少停工半個月或一個月，而且要透過事故註記，沒有所謂改善就馬上復工的，你對這個事情，就是他把處罰強度增強，沒有送書面報告就可以復工的，沒有改善後就立刻復工的，而且要停工至少半個月、一個月，你覺得呢？你對他這種處罰強度的增強有什麼看法？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，對於停工，其實我有跟署裡面說了，該停工的，尤其是過去紀錄上面前科累累……"],["林委員淑芬：我不是在講這個，我問你的是，他把強度拉高了，而且依照你們的停工辦法，只要改善，檢送書面報告就可以復工，你覺得這麼easy嗎？如果有死亡案件可以檢送書面報告就復工嗎？如果有死亡案件的話，這樣子改善就可以馬上復工嗎？當臺北市地方政府宣示，你如果有的話就一律半個月、一個月才准復工，看你有辦法怎麼樣，看你有這個決心要跟政府拚嗎？這樣子的話，你有什麼看法？"],["主席：請署長簡單、明確說明。"],["林委員淑芬：我可不可以再問你，以往我們這種死亡案件，從停工到復工，平均時間多長？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，我們最近也在檢討這個停、復工的要點，如果是嚴重性的一個重大災害，不是說半個月或一個月復工，是整體改善，甚至經過三次、四次的審查，才會讓他們復工。"],["林委員淑芬：那你都沒有書面嗎？如果有死亡案件，書面審查就可以，這個要件拿掉，然後我問你，過去都是停多久？平均一個死亡案件這樣停復工都是停多久？你不要講得這麼好聽啦！"],["林署長毓堂：我們是不是再提供相關數據？因為不同的情節，有的是火災爆炸，有的是墜落，所以這個部分我們可能要提供數據。"],["林委員淑芬：好，那你就把詳細資料檢附給我們看一下。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請王正旭委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}},{"id":"160780","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160780","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423695586481c26908dfa693dd611367b4dddc2100e055cb59403e2bac01cfa5d53fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:32:43 - 10:47:15","影片長度":"00:14:32","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查「保險法」15案：\n一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案。【後3案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第一百二十三條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T10:32:43+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:47:15+08:00","duration":872,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4.06409375,"end":15.539093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.825968750000001,"end":21.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":23.16659375,"end":24.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.47034375,"end":23.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.63471875,"end":27.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":27.26721875,"end":27.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":30.50721875,"end":30.945968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":31.82346875,"end":33.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":33.88221875,"end":47.112218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":48.29346875,"end":49.103468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":50.31846875,"end":53.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":53.79471875,"end":55.330343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":55.532843750000005,"end":57.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":57.439718750000004,"end":61.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":61.59096875,"end":80.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":80.76096875,"end":83.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":83.54534375,"end":84.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":84.20346875,"end":89.09721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":89.33346875000001,"end":97.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":98.53034375,"end":99.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":99.67784375000001,"end":100.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":101.07846875000001,"end":104.09909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":104.18346875,"end":107.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":107.74409375,"end":110.35971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":110.51159375,"end":110.98409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":111.42284375000001,"end":113.53221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":115.00034375000001,"end":115.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":116.38409375,"end":117.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.34596875000001,"end":119.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":118.34159375,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.02909375,"end":120.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":120.58596875,"end":120.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.73346875000001,"end":121.96971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.32409375,"end":135.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.74596875,"end":123.23534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.42471875000001,"end":127.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":135.97596875000002,"end":136.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.34721875,"end":136.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":136.54971875,"end":140.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":140.54909375,"end":142.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":142.67534375,"end":143.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":143.94096875,"end":146.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":146.86034375,"end":148.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.52659375000002,"end":150.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.64034375,"end":150.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":150.65721875,"end":151.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.72471875000002,"end":159.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":151.41659375,"end":152.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":159.97221875,"end":163.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":163.22909375,"end":167.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":167.63346875000002,"end":169.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.21534375000002,"end":170.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.95784375000002,"end":171.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.34596875,"end":176.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":176.67846875,"end":176.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":177.45471875,"end":182.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":183.29346875000002,"end":187.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":187.83284375000002,"end":191.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":191.84909375,"end":202.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.24409375000002,"end":211.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.58846875,"end":215.65971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.09846875000002,"end":242.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":242.96346875,"end":243.03096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.03096875000003,"end":243.06471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":243.06471875000003,"end":244.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.51596875,"end":244.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.87034375000002,"end":247.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":246.15284375000002,"end":248.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.80659375000002,"end":256.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":256.36221875,"end":264.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.39596875,"end":256.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.16284375000004,"end":263.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":264.81659375000004,"end":267.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":267.93846875,"end":290.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":290.88846875,"end":291.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":291.81659375000004,"end":294.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":295.25909375000003,"end":297.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":297.77346875,"end":300.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":300.79409375,"end":308.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":308.79284375000003,"end":311.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":312.08346875,"end":314.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":315.10409375,"end":316.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":316.65659375,"end":319.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":320.90909375,"end":321.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":321.58409375,"end":322.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":322.32659375000003,"end":328.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.69721875000005,"end":326.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.57471875000005,"end":327.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":328.92471875,"end":331.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":331.45596875,"end":335.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":335.13471875000005,"end":344.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":345.04034375000003,"end":345.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":346.64346875,"end":348.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":348.90471875000003,"end":371.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":372.22596875000005,"end":382.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":382.68846875,"end":385.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":386.09721875,"end":387.37971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":387.76784375,"end":391.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":392.10471875,"end":393.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":394.21409375,"end":395.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":396.13784375,"end":396.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":397.11659375000005,"end":400.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.74034375,"end":405.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":402.33096875,"end":402.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.94221875000005,"end":406.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":406.97159375,"end":408.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":408.91221875,"end":413.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":413.99159375000005,"end":416.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.18534375,"end":417.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.83909375,"end":417.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.36221875,"end":433.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":431.96346875,"end":434.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.54534375000003,"end":434.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":434.64659375,"end":438.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":439.03409375,"end":447.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.37034375,"end":448.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.80471875,"end":455.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":455.47034375000004,"end":466.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":466.55721875,"end":471.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":472.12596875,"end":472.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":472.80096875000004,"end":479.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":479.93909375000004,"end":480.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":480.69846875,"end":480.96846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.96846875000006,"end":480.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":480.98534375,"end":481.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":481.96409375,"end":486.41909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.65534375000004,"end":487.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.54971875,"end":494.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":494.97471875,"end":496.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.47659375,"end":496.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":496.49346875000003,"end":498.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":499.02471875000003,"end":507.51284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":507.91784375000003,"end":509.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":509.92596875000004,"end":510.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":510.97221875,"end":515.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.64221875,"end":520.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.8272187499999,"end":523.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":523.96596875,"end":536.9597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":537.21284375,"end":538.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":538.7990937500001,"end":540.2334687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":540.72284375,"end":543.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":543.65909375,"end":545.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":545.44784375,"end":546.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":546.5447187500001,"end":548.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":548.7722187500001,"end":550.6115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":551.0165937500001,"end":552.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":553.0078437500001,"end":553.3115937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":553.6828437500001,"end":556.3997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":556.9565937500001,"end":558.8972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":559.3359687500001,"end":563.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":563.75721875,"end":565.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":565.9340937500001,"end":569.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":569.7647187499999,"end":575.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.60346875,"end":575.6372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":575.97471875,"end":576.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":576.02534375,"end":576.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":577.0209687500001,"end":577.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.0378437500001,"end":581.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":582.1172187500001,"end":593.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":593.72721875,"end":609.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":609.6572187500001,"end":612.1884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":612.25596875,"end":617.4197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":617.5378437500001,"end":620.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":621.16596875,"end":623.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":624.5915937500001,"end":624.6084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.6084687499999,"end":630.4809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":631.2065937500001,"end":637.9228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":637.19721875,"end":637.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":638.58096875,"end":639.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":639.96471875,"end":649.1784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.68159375,"end":643.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":649.3640937499999,"end":664.1297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.31534375,"end":670.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":670.4409687500001,"end":671.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":672.06096875,"end":674.6765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":674.9128437500001,"end":677.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":677.64659375,"end":686.1853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":681.57846875,"end":681.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":683.2490937500002,"end":687.6028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":687.6028437500001,"end":691.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":687.61971875,"end":687.8559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":691.2478437500001,"end":697.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":697.4578437499999,"end":697.5928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":697.5928437500002,"end":697.7109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":697.7109687500001,"end":699.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":699.9722187500001,"end":702.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":703.0772187500002,"end":705.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":706.23284375,"end":707.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":707.22846875,"end":709.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":709.4897187500001,"end":709.8272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":709.84409375,"end":710.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":710.16471875,"end":714.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":714.7040937500001,"end":718.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":719.58096875,"end":721.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":722.24721875,"end":724.1372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":724.1709687500002,"end":726.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":724.8459687500001,"end":726.6853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":727.3603437500001,"end":728.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":727.73159375,"end":729.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":729.11534375,"end":730.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":730.98846875,"end":731.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":731.2078437499999,"end":739.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":734.02596875,"end":734.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":739.42596875,"end":739.9153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":739.96596875,"end":740.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":740.0334687500001,"end":747.7453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":747.7959687500002,"end":760.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":760.9753437500001,"end":768.8390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":768.2822187500001,"end":770.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":770.2903437500001,"end":780.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":779.8584687500002,"end":780.1115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":780.0947187500001,"end":790.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":780.1284687500001,"end":780.1453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":790.5403437500001,"end":802.0828437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":802.23471875,"end":814.8403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":814.8740937500002,"end":815.0090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":815.0090937500001,"end":815.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":815.9709687500001,"end":815.9878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":815.9878437500001,"end":816.9497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":816.9497187500001,"end":816.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":816.9834687500002,"end":819.8859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":820.08846875,"end":826.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":825.4209687500002,"end":826.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":826.5009687500001,"end":828.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":828.9140937500001,"end":831.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":831.3103437500001,"end":833.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":834.1453437500002,"end":840.1865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":840.23721875,"end":840.6084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":840.77721875,"end":855.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":855.3234687500001,"end":860.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":860.8247187500001,"end":861.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":861.19596875,"end":862.0903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":861.5503437500001,"end":865.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":862.0903437500001,"end":862.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":868.78971875,"end":872.0634687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.213,"end":19.607,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政府機關首長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請我們彭主委還有司法院的馬法官和法務部的謝副司長好 請彭主委還有那個司法院馬法官還有法務部的謝副司長好 法務部那個謝副司長請"},{"start":31.873,"end":48.741,"text":"主委好 法官好 副市長好來 我的標題單一標準免足案判斷審案量回歸屬性和非保單名稱來認定好 先就交到主委來 主委那個昨天在院會的時候我跟您請教就是說未來啊我們在"},{"start":50.336,"end":65.024,"text":"因為在談虛幣在交易所的時候我們談到詐欺有提到境內跟境外境外實名制的部分我有跟你提到說如果能夠及時發出扣押的裁定那麼跟你請教說有沒有境外的虛幣較有願意配合"},{"start":65.484,"end":81.916,"text":"那您說只要有助於打詐的您都支持都會去爭取但是現在的問題昨天也跟您問過要請兩位法務部跟司法院代表說但是司法機關能夠及時開出扣押的裁定嗎那請兩位法官跟副長您聽好下一頁過去我們的實務上當我們阻斷詐騙是以"},{"start":86.181,"end":113.277,"text":"再圖的金流來追錢為優先法官跟副長了解今天一個犯罪一個實體犯罪偷竊搶奪基本上我們一定有個犯罪有個罪犯有個被害人被害人他因為有財產損失是因為這個犯罪行為我們抓到這個犯人之後把他身上的錢拿出來看看是不是他的犯罪所得然後再發一個財定扣押是不是這樣子 法官是不是這樣"},{"start":115.029,"end":120.223,"text":"毛法官不好意思 因為我是民視廳的法官好了 那個副市長 法制司副市長"},{"start":122.963,"end":148.649,"text":"報告委員,就是在各式各樣的財產犯罪,或者是非財產犯罪所得我們大概就是會查出金流之後,向法院申請扣押裁定除非是屬於無令狀可以扣押的狀況好,那現在有個問題啦,就是說我們現在如果有人宣稱被詐欺那確定他被詐欺了,但是還沒有找到犯罪人對不對,但是我們可以找到他被詐欺的錢在哪裡譬如他可能虛幣,這時候你們會讓法院會裁定扣押嗎?"},{"start":152.095,"end":174.944,"text":"就是沒有就算還沒找到被害人只要能證明他疑似是犯罪所得事實上是可以申請扣押的所以說我們司法機關未來追遣為優先確認詐款的路徑之後就可以向境外願意合作的實名制虛幣交易所來核發這樣的一個扣押裁定是不是這樣報告委員這個可能涉及裁定如何執行的問題是的 那主委請"},{"start":177.489,"end":200.952,"text":"所以今天因為我們不是一個本題所以今天法務部跟司法院來的不是這個本題的一個對象所以我昨天在請教說是不是我們儘管會為了虛弊交易所未來可能會成為一個詐欺者常用的一個途徑那這樣的一個阻斷金流的過程需要司法院介入是不是可以協調我們法務部跟司法院來完成這樣的一個樣態能夠執行"},{"start":202.413,"end":211.364,"text":"這當然在我們的打炸團隊裡面這個大家都一起的啦如果未來有這個需要我們會透過那個平台提出要求不過剛剛委員提到這個可能"},{"start":212.625,"end":231.831,"text":"有幾個點可能我們回去也在思考過第一個我們在虛擬幣的世界裡面其實國界沒那麼明確就是在網路世界裡面但是他假設有一個比如說這個具體的法人是受我們的管轄或願意合作的那當然就變成具體了"},{"start":233.571,"end":248.93,"text":"還要裁定要扣押啊對 所以說就是一定要我們配合假如這還跨境的法人的部分那就真的要透過國際的合作啦是但是我們本國的司法體系要能夠及時的發出這個扣押裁定嘛這個就是要看我們司法司法部是 所以要去跟法務部跟司法院對 就是我們對於剛才"},{"start":249.671,"end":264.083,"text":"就跟昨天那個達夫委員就說凡是有助於主詐的措施我們都要來想辦法來...我的意思是說請金管會、行政院、法務部、司法院要共同來努力啦不能只有靠我們行政機關謝謝好我們回到本題齁"},{"start":264.864,"end":284.96,"text":"那麼這個是來自於2022年因為最高法院的108的897號的民事裁定大法庭必要時終止呢債務人為藥保人的人壽保險契約是這個意思來我們看看辛苦的過程首先呢是在去年4月的時候那時候我來台政委員會的質詢就提出來了"},{"start":285.62,"end":297.065,"text":"然後呢我們在4月29號聯合財委會的跨黨派委員就提出了一個記者會很快的本席就在5月10號提出了保險法的修法草案然後呢我們司法院"},{"start":297.833,"end":318.756,"text":"我當時在市委會當召委我也排了一個專題報告也在6月17號安排去台北地院考察而且呢在6月28號呢其實司法院的記者會就宣布了一個新的指引到後來到去年的10月15號在屏東開地方說明會到了今年的3月13號很快的行政院就有一個院版送來要審議而我們的召委也趕快排了一個公聽會"},{"start":320.933,"end":343.023,"text":"主委謝謝我們這一次的動作很快一點的時間我們已經進入到修法了首先給您一個肯定再往下看那麼可是原因回過當初啦當初最大的一個爆發出來的冰山這一角是來自什麼來自全國各地的民事執行處受理債權人申請執行標的涉及到債務人對第三人質保險契約的金錢債權很長有多少件"},{"start":346.904,"end":371.419,"text":"總件數是七十七萬多件其中四分之三是法人只有四分之一是治安人的金錢債權而這四分之三的法人當中呢銀行占一半三分之二三分之一是資產管理公司就是俗稱的什麼討債公司結果在那個時候法院就什麼淪為了討債公司幫忙去催債這當中合法的換價命令約四萬多件"},{"start":372.379,"end":400.459,"text":"這就是法院的負擔我們往下看接下來我們的副司長跟法官就看到了在我們過去一年每個法官所做出的平均的裁定公佈呢21年是60件22年是110件最高峰就是在前年就是大法庭的裁定出來的時候134件現在慢慢下降如果單以2024年比較集中在台北地院是不是這樣子我們從民事庭的法官 毛法官是不是這樣子這是你們的痛嘛 對不對"},{"start":401.929,"end":416.614,"text":"對 沒錯 目前台北地院仍然是這個執行狀況最嚴重的地方這就是我去年6月17號的時候呢我們司法法治委員會去考察台北地院的情況連同仁們都貼海報抗議啊是的他們受不了嘛 是不是是的好 那請問這個情況紓解了沒有是"},{"start":419.515,"end":437.714,"text":"報告委員 感謝委員在這個去年六月的時候前往台北地議院去了解實際上的狀況那在這個去年六月之後那司法院這邊就這個台北地議院的這個狀況以及應該說全國法院也都有類似的狀況好 那有一個方法嘛 就是這一頁嘛對本來我們強制執行呢 根據因有債務人資"},{"start":439.095,"end":461.882,"text":"居住所的地方法院為之那我們就可以把這個案件分給債務人所在而不是以保險公司的台北地院跟士林地院嘛 是不是這樣對 沒錯 我們透過這個去年6月17號發布的這個執行原則然後來擴大解釋這個應有這個謝謝 來往前 彭主委所以呢 我們怎麼樣去減量是我們保險法修法當中考慮一個程序的一個程序經濟啦"},{"start":462.682,"end":481.276,"text":"那我們來看到現在的認定其實幾位前面的委員都說到了最低生活費的標準要以哪一個有人主張我也是支持以全國最高的那一個為主為什麼這樣子才不會讓債權人跟債務人為了尋求自己的最佳利益而去主張說要再依哪一個當地法院是不是這樣所以呢"},{"start":482.037,"end":508.705,"text":"主委是不是你也接受我們統一標準就能減省我們法院的認定程序呃我剛剛也要答覆委員我們是尊重我們也是開放太多我覺得這是一個蠻好的解決方法好謝謝你認為蠻好的我們往這方面努力往下看所以呢其實呢保單解約金有類似的情況我們發現呢我們在修法的過程當中呢院版的部分是傾向說以分別計算單筆解約金而不是以合併所有的解約金來加總請問一下我們呃謝"},{"start":511.141,"end":538.189,"text":"副市長跟馬法官馬法官您認為這樣有沒有足以我們法院在認定上的裁定對於這個行政院版的這個分別計算個別解約金有助於這個執行的的便利性這樣子好謝謝來我們彭主委所以說今天我們要說的修法的時候不是要考量到法的原理屬性要考量未來執行上的程序經濟是的好我們來往下看其實呢最大的問題我們過去感受到民眾的痛是什麼就是殺雞取卵"},{"start":538.869,"end":550.224,"text":"我債務人欠的錢跟我相對的保單損失利益是不成比例所以我們才主張怎麼往下看還有什麼原因主張介入權嘛 我要講的就是另外呢 我們去找的狀況是什麼很多的債務人員高齡了"},{"start":553.735,"end":575.227,"text":"早年時投保的保單如果一旦解約他失去了保障他沒有辦法再拿回來另外一個情況是這就是傷害險跟健康險另外一個就是說他早年幫他的子女藥保人幫他子女受益人請求的保險權益怎麼樣能夠讓受益人可以繼續強弱保障這是我們的目的主委那我們這時候怎麼去進行設計"},{"start":577.108,"end":591.418,"text":"所以說當時我們其實當時引入介入權的概念就是其實我們保險法裡面當時就有一個條文就是利害關稅人得代繳保費的精神很類似他的意思是說如果說這個利害關稅人主張契約應該繼續的話你可以來"},{"start":594.04,"end":623.246,"text":"執行一些動作讓這個契約進行包括這個像介入權那假設我是受益人我覺得這張保安都有重大利益我當然可以代償這以後呢我取代他成為我的遙保人終止他的債權債務關係不會再被那個債務人所追償被那個債權人所追償是的那我們來看一下保險法你說第12條是這樣子那為什麼現在院門的第1、2、3條之二主張的比保險法的還要再多一些些就是依此而推演的介入權能多了什麼"},{"start":624.619,"end":635.332,"text":"多了兄弟姐妹是這樣嗎多了我們保險法第16條以外家屬以外的親屬家屬以外的親屬因為我們保險法對於有保險利益是以家屬為基礎不以親屬"},{"start":638.635,"end":651.3,"text":"所以家屬是情共同生活,同居同串不是家屬的親屬,是多了兄弟姐妹不以共同居住為限那思考是什麼?為什麼?因為這個能夠擴大,能夠來終止債權債務關係幫他清償,維繫保險價值的範圍跟他加大當然有人擔心道德風險的問題就是我們前面又加了一個要經過腰背保險人的同意"},{"start":667.227,"end":687.097,"text":"尊重盜保險法,我想這就可以解決這個問題,擴大範圍後續有一個程序上的問題,請你們後續修法後續思考一下不只一個人要行使的時候,誰先協和?就是介入選的時候,這個目前法條上我們沒有辦法去定義後續在我們的實務上的時候,後續的配套我們現在要轉就只會一個人"},{"start":687.717,"end":713.682,"text":"所以這個配套呢要跟著我們保險網的修訂一起加進來好不好所以我們在實務作業上的時候我們會請我們保險局在這邊會訂定一些規範來做好那最後一題呢就是大家問到的就是有些委員會版本有寫的小兒中老保險因為我的標題是說什麼希望回歸保險的屬性而不是保險商品的名稱那麼請問一下目前小兒中老保險保含了哪些不同性質的保險屬性"},{"start":714.721,"end":725.955,"text":"他其實小額綜合保險就是一個限定額度的終身受險限定額度的終身受險他是生存險還是死亡險他是以死亡險為主可是有的有註冊金"},{"start":729.444,"end":746.352,"text":"應該小兒中老保險應該是沒有他是一個純粹的終身險那失能幾戶他有完全失能幾戶就等同經濟死亡的部分是的好所以呢那到底小兒中老保險適不適合在我們依照我們保險法的精神中排除不得作為我們金錢債務的強制執行的對象"},{"start":748.073,"end":770.096,"text":"這個我們也是在剛剛的報告我們經過公聽會以後呢我們覺得說假設大家社會有共識認為這是一個需要被排除的我們也尊重不過我們建議不要用商品的名稱做排除是的所以我希望未來啊在你們的持續我們的修法過程當中不是以商品名稱來定義而是以保險的本質屬性來判斷是的這樣才有那個超過性"},{"start":770.356,"end":785.866,"text":"我希望說主委多多強調你的生存險死亡險到底是屬於殘險性質的損害填補還是屬於具有財富移轉的儲蓄投資效果這個部分清楚的將保單的本質做判斷因為要法庭來做這樣判斷不是他們的專業上所應為所以未來"},{"start":790.589,"end":819.386,"text":"我們這個金管會對於哪些保單可以免除強制執行的對象這個部分的說明是不是在我們的立法說明當中有更詳細明確的補充對 這個沒問題其實後來未來執行的時候各位可以看到其實我們很重要的環節是授權工會授權工會這邊做一個認定其實我們在那邊可以做很清楚的認定那因為法院來查詢的時候會透過他們好 所以麻煩知道了未來你們在判斷的時候你們不用自己判斷你們只要函詢"},{"start":820.447,"end":827.514,"text":"受險公會或者我們今晚會的保險局就可以得到認定了那麼大家也不用想辦法去什麼因為我很擔心什麼我們本來是要保障"},{"start":829.011,"end":854.905,"text":"要保人的債務人但是怕的是一些想要避債的存心有這樣的前置動機的人去買什麼買保險公司的逃債商品現在很多保險公司都要去設出這個保單以後就不會被列入強制執行不可以這樣子我們希望今晚會趕快公佈也嚴格審查不得讓我們保險公司以可以避債保單的方式來做設計跟宣傳可以嗎"},{"start":855.485,"end":860.251,"text":"這我們在內控內基制度上面我們會來做一個涉控好 謝謝主委 謝謝副市長 謝謝毛老闆好 謝謝接著請顏寬恆委員質詢顏委員質詢結束以後我們休息十分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":488,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時32分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長及官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請彭主委、司法院毛法官及法務部謝副司長。"],["主席：好，請彭主委、司法院毛法官、法務部謝副司長。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好、法官好、副司長好。我今天的標題是「單一標準免逐案判斷省案量，回歸屬性而非保單名稱認定」，先就教一下主委，昨天在院會的時候我向你請教，在談虛幣交易所的時候我們談到詐欺有分境內跟境外，對於境外實名制的部分，我有跟你請教，如果能夠及時發出扣押的裁定，有沒有境外的虛幣交易所願意配合，您說只要有助於打詐的都你支持、都會去爭取。現在的問題昨天也跟你問過，現在也請教法務部跟司法院兩位代表，請問司法機關能夠及時開出扣押的裁定嗎？請法官跟副司長聽好，過去我們的實務上，阻斷詐騙是以在途金流來追錢為優先，法官跟副司長了解吧，今天一個實體犯罪，例如偷竊、搶奪，基本上我們一定有個罪犯、有個被害人，被害人因為這個犯罪行為而有財產損失，我們抓到這個犯人之後，把他身上的錢拿出來看看是不是他的犯罪所得，然後才發一個扣押裁定，是不是這樣子？毛法官，是不是這樣？"],["毛法官彥程：報告，不好意思，因為我是民事廳的法官……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那請副司長回答。"],["謝副司長志明：報告委員，在各式各樣的財產犯罪或者是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：大概是這樣嘛，傳統的……"],["謝副司長志明：只要是犯罪所得，我們大概會在查出金流之後向法院聲請扣押裁定，除非是屬於無令狀可以扣押的狀況。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，現在有一個問題，就是現在如果有人宣稱被詐欺，確定他被詐欺了，還沒有找到犯罪人，但是我們可以找到他被詐欺的錢在哪裡，譬如他換成虛幣，這時候你們會向法院聲請扣押裁定嗎？會主張……"],["謝副司長志明：就算還沒找到被害人，只要能證明疑似是犯罪所得，事實上是可以聲請扣押的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以說未來我們司法機關追錢為優先，確認詐款的路徑之後，就可以向境外願意合作的實名制虛幣交易所來核發這樣一個扣押裁定，是不是這樣？"],["謝副司長志明：報告委員，這個可能涉及裁定如何執行的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委，因為這不是今天的本題，所以今天法務部跟司法院來列席的不是這個本題的對象，我昨天有請教主委，虛幣交易所未來可能會成為詐欺者常用的一個途徑，這樣一個阻斷金流的過程需要司法院介入，金管會是不是可以協調法務部跟司法院來完成讓這樣一個樣態能夠執行？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這當然，在我們的打詐團隊裡面，大家都是一起的啦，如果未來有這個需要，我們會透過那個平臺提出要求。不過剛才委員提到的這個部分，可能有幾個點是我們回去也要再思考過，第一個，在虛擬幣的世界裡面，其實國界沒那麼明確，就是在網路世界裡面。但是假設有一個具體的法人是受我們管轄或願意合作的，當然就變成具體了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這時候法院要裁定扣押啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以就是一定要有人配合，假如還牽涉到跨境的法人部分，那就真的要透過國際的合作了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，但是我們本國的司法體系要能夠及時地發出這個扣押裁定嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個就是要看我們司法實務上怎麼做……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以要去跟法務部及司法院協調。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，昨天在答復委員的時候也是，凡是有助於阻詐的措施，我們都要來想辦法來做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我的意思是說，請金管會、行政院、法務部、司法院要共同來努力，不能只有靠我們行政機關，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們回到本題，這個是來自於2022年最高法院108年度台抗大字第897號民事裁定，裁定主文是「執行法院於必要時，得核發執行命令終止債務人為要保人之人壽保險契約……」，是這樣的意思嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，我們來看看辛苦的過程，首先是在去年4月的時候，我在財政委員會的質詢時就提出來了，然後在4月29號的時候，我們聯合財委會的跨黨派委員召開了一個記者會，很快的，本席在5月10號就提出了保險法修法草案，因為那時候我是司委會的召委，所以我也排了一個專題報告，並在6月17號安排司委會去臺北地院考察，6月28號司法院的記者會就宣布了一個新的指引。去年10月15號在屏東開地方說明會，到了今年3月13號，很快的，行政院就有一個院版送來審議，我們的召委也趕快排了一場公聽會。主委，謝謝，我們這一次的動作很快，一年的時間已經進入到修法了，首先給你一個肯定。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們再往下看，回歸到當初的原因，當初爆發出來的冰山一角是什麼？是來自全國各地法院民事執行處受理債權人聲請執行標的，涉及到債務人對第三人之保險契約金錢債權的總件數有七十七萬多件，其中四分之三是法人，只有四分之一是自然人的金錢債權，而這四分之三的法人當中，銀行占三分之二，三分之一是資產管理公司，就是俗稱的討債公司，結果在那個時候，法院淪為為討債公司去幫忙催債，這當中核發的換價命令約四萬多件，這都是法院的負擔。","接下來我們的副司長跟法官就可以看到了，過去歷年每位法官所作出的平均裁定公布，2021年是60件、2022年是110件，最高峰就是在前年，大法庭裁定出來的有143件，現在又慢慢下降，如果單以2024年來看，是集中在臺北地院，是不是這樣子？民事庭毛法官，是不是這樣子？這是你們的痛嘛，對不對？"],["毛法官彥程：對，沒錯，目前臺北地院仍然是執行狀況最嚴重的地方。"],["鍾委員佳濱：螢幕上這張照片就是去年6月17號我們司法法制委員會去考察臺北地院的情況，連同仁們都貼了海報抗議啊。"],["毛法官彥程：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們受不了了嘛，是不是？"],["毛法官彥程：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請問這個情況紓解了沒有？"],["毛法官彥程：報告委員，感謝委員在去年6月的時候前往臺北地院去了解實際上的狀況，在去年6月之後，司法院這邊有就臺北地院的這個狀況，應該說全國法院也都有類似的狀況，只是沒有如同……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，有一個方法嘛，本來我們的強制執行應由債務人之住、居所所在地之法院為之，我們就可以把這個案件分給債務人所在地的法院，而不是以保險公司所在地的臺北地院跟士林地院嘛，是不是這樣？"],["毛法官彥程：對，沒錯，我們透過去年6月17號發布的這個執行原則，然後擴大解釋，這個應由……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。","彭主委，所以我們怎麼樣去減量是保險法修法當中考慮的程序經濟啦。我們來看現在的認定，其實前面幾位委員都說到了，最低生活費的標準要以哪一個為準？剛才有人主張，我也支持以全國最高的那一個為主，為什麼？這樣子才不會讓債權人跟債務人為了尋求自己的最佳利益而主張要向哪一個法院聲請執行，是不是這樣？主委，你是不是也接受如果我們統一標準就能減省法院的認定程序？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛剛也有答復委員，我們是尊重，我們也持開放態度，我覺得這是一個滿好的解決方法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝你認為滿好的，我們會往這方面努力。其實保單解約金有類似的情況，我們也發現了在修法的過程當中，院版的部分是傾向以分別計算單筆解約金，而不是合併計算所有解約金來加總，請問一下毛法官，你們認為這樣有沒有助於我們法院在認定上的裁定？"],["毛法官彥程：行政院版的分別計算個別解約金是有助於執行的便利性。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。","彭主委，所以今天我們要說的是，修法的時候不是只有考量到法的原理、屬性，還要考量到未來執行上的程序經濟。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來往下看，其實大的問題，過去我們民眾感受到的痛是什麼？就是殺雞取卵，債務人欠的錢跟相對的保單損失利益是不成比例，所以我們才主張什麼？主張介入權嘛！我還要講的就是，另外我們要預防的狀況是很多的債務人已經高齡了，他早年時投保的保單一旦解約，他失去的保障就沒有辦法再拿回來，這指的是傷害險跟健康險。另外一個就是說，他早年幫他的子女投保，如果被強制執行了，他的子女（受益人）會失去請求保險金的權益，所以怎麼樣能夠讓受益人可以繼續享受保險保障，這是我們的目的嘛。主委，請問這時候我們要怎麼去進行與設計？"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以當時我們引入介入權的概念就是，其實當時的保險法裡面就有一個條文與利害關係人得代繳保費的精神很類似，它的意思是說，如果這個利害關人主張契約應該繼續的話，你可以執行一些動作讓這個契約進行，包括像介入權，假設我是受益人，我覺得這張保單對我有重大利益，我當然可以代償，以後我取代他成為要保人，終止他的債權債務關係不會再被那個債權人所追償。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，我們來看一下保險法，你說第十六條是這樣規定的，為什麼現在院版第一百二十三條之二能主張的人比保險法規定有保險利益的人還要再多一些些？就是依此而推演的介入權人多了兄弟姐妹，是這樣嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：多了我們保險法第十六條家屬以外的親屬。"],["鍾委員佳濱：家屬以外的親屬？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為保險法所謂有保險利益是以家屬為基礎，不以親屬。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以也就是說，家屬是以共同生活為目的而同居者……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，就不限於血緣關係。"],["鍾委員佳濱：多了不是家屬的親屬，是多了兄弟姐妹，不以共同居住為限？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問思考的理由是什麼？為什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為這個能夠擴大、能夠終止這個債權債務關係，幫他清償，維繫這個保險價值的範圍加大，當然有人擔心會有道德風險的問題，因此我們前面又加了一個經過要被保險人的同意，尊重到保險法，我想這就可以解決這個問題，擴大範圍這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，後續有一個程序上的問題，請你們修法後去思考一下，不只一個人要行使的時候誰先誰後？就是介入權的時候，這個在目前的法條上，我們沒有辦法去定義，後續在我們執行實務上的配套……"],["彭主任委員金隆：實務上可以來做，因為我們現在的要保人就只會一個人啦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這個配套要跟著我們保險法修訂一起加進來，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個在實務作業的時候，我們會請保險局在這邊訂定一些規範來做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，最後一題就是大家問到的，也就是有些委員的版本中有規定的小額終老保險，因為我的標題是希望回歸保險的屬性，而不是保險商品的名稱。請問一下，目前小額終老保險包含了哪些不同性質的保險屬性？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實小額終老保險就是一個限定額度的終身壽險。"],["鍾委員佳濱：限定額度的終身壽險，它是生存險還是死亡險？"],["彭主任委員金隆：它是以死亡險為主，死亡給付為主。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可是有的有祝壽金耶，這是生存險吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：小額終老保險應該是沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：它是一個純粹的終身險。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那失能給付？"],["彭主任委員金隆：它有完全失能給付，就等同經濟死亡的部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以到底小額終老保險適不適合依照保險法的精神排除，不得作為金錢債務強制執行的對象？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們經過公聽會以後，我們也覺得，假設社會有共識，認為這是需要被排除的，我們也尊重，不過我們建議不要用商品的名稱來做排除。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以我希望未來在我們的修法過程當中，不是以商品名稱來定義，而是以保險的本質屬性來判斷。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，這樣才有含括性。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我希望主委多多強調你的生存險、死亡險到底是屬於產險性質的損害填補，還是屬於具有財富移轉的儲蓄投資效果，清楚的將保單的本質做判斷，因為要法庭來做這樣的判斷，不是他們的專業上所應為。所以未來金管會對於哪些保單可以免除強制執行，這部分的說明是不是在立法說明當中有更詳細、明確的補充？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這個沒問題，其實未來執行的時候，各位可以看到，其中有一個很重要的環節是壽險公會，由壽險公會做一個認定，事實上可以做很清楚的認定，因為法院來查詢的時候會透過他們。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以，毛法官知道了，未來你們不用自己判斷，你們只要函詢壽險公會、金管會或保險局，就可以得到認定了，那麼大家也不用想辦法去……因為我很擔心我們本來是要保障要保人的債務人，怕的是一些想要避債的、存心有這樣動機的人去買保險公司的逃債商品。現在很多保險公司宣傳這個保單以後就不會被列入強制執行，不可以這樣子！我們希望金管會趕快公布，也嚴格審查，不得讓保險公司以可以避債的方式來做保單的設計跟宣傳，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個我們在內控內稽制度上會來做一個設控。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝主委，謝謝副司長，謝謝毛法官。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接著請顏寬恒委員質詢。顏委員質詢結束以後，我們休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","黃珊珊","羅智強","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","黃國昌","陳玉珍","王世堅","林思銘","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","徐富癸","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「保險法」15案：一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員\n王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人\n分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案；二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第\n一百二十三條之一條文草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等\n19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百\n七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案","agenda_id":"1144301_00006"}}},{"id":"160779","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160779","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423691c56147802e9855c3c0ba1d923b4b8dbc2100e055cb594031eeae6d87bcf22d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:41:34 - 10:50:03","影片長度":"00:08:29","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T10:41:34+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:50:03+08:00","duration":509,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.101593750000001,"end":9.480968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.071593750000002,"end":11.084093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.024093750000002,"end":17.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.46284375,"end":29.984093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.039718750000002,"end":25.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.996593750000002,"end":50.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.32034375,"end":38.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.96409375,"end":62.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.01346875,"end":58.384718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.20721875,"end":65.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.13034375000001,"end":67.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.13409375,"end":75.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.02784375,"end":81.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.32659375,"end":79.41096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.01409375,"end":86.56596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.95846875000001,"end":120.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.57846875,"end":88.86096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.89471875000001,"end":88.92846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.96221875,"end":89.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.96471875,"end":100.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.26096875,"end":132.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.85096875,"end":126.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.61034375000001,"end":126.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.83721875,"end":135.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.70596875,"end":151.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.21409375000002,"end":151.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.02409375000002,"end":154.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.51721875,"end":157.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.68596875,"end":161.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.32284375,"end":158.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.33096875,"end":174.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.53534375,"end":175.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.25659375,"end":177.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.26909375000002,"end":179.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.30659375000002,"end":218.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.74034375000002,"end":186.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.55409375000002,"end":189.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.81971875000002,"end":191.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.86596875,"end":192.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.22471875000002,"end":218.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.54534375,"end":221.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.39721875,"end":224.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.10971875,"end":232.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.78784375,"end":233.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.88471875000002,"end":235.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.62284375000002,"end":241.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.76596875,"end":239.23409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.41096875000002,"end":273.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.70534375000003,"end":248.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.04221875000002,"end":252.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.24471875,"end":252.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.51284375,"end":264.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.24159375,"end":320.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.14659375,"end":287.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.54284375000003,"end":290.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.27596875,"end":296.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.61971875,"end":310.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.79096875000005,"end":332.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.26659375,"end":328.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.07596875,"end":336.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.34596875,"end":333.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.41721875,"end":349.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.56034375,"end":338.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.41096875,"end":368.39534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.95034375,"end":354.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.67971875,"end":358.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.67534375,"end":359.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.46346875,"end":364.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.67846875000004,"end":366.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.58096875,"end":370.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.63971875000004,"end":371.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.27659375,"end":375.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.36471875,"end":389.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.87721875,"end":416.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.32221875000005,"end":404.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.60909375,"end":404.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.67471875,"end":423.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.87721875000005,"end":416.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.33596875,"end":433.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.81971875000005,"end":435.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.03034375000004,"end":443.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.96159375,"end":452.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.12471875000006,"end":459.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.35159375,"end":459.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.77346875,"end":485.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.96471875000003,"end":478.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.20409375,"end":492.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.96659375,"end":505.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.96034375000005,"end":508.18784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.47,"end":28.638,"text":"謝謝主席我想要請陳部長我們請部長部長好其實動保法我看到今天所有委員都非常關注行政院的版本我想要請教一下行政院的版本什麼時候會送進來"},{"start":31.035,"end":49.823,"text":"我跟委員報告行政院我們去年8月送到行政院行政院的內部的法規會審議已經完成了那就剩最後一個階段就是要通過行政院院會就可以送立法院那我想我會盡快的跟行政院聯絡盡快的排到院會裡面去做報告以後"},{"start":50.143,"end":67.108,"text":"你有沒有信心啊你有沒有信心真的下一次院會就可以送出來啊是不是大家都在關心嘛這個沒有什麼爭議的有非常多的條文都沒有爭議的我想我會盡量溝通在下禮拜的院會看可不可以排進去排進去完了以後就可以送出來了你有沒有去溝通啊"},{"start":69.178,"end":93.201,"text":"因為院會裡面排的一些案子我們還是有跟有優先次序嘛我們還是有我知道我知道可是這個東西沒有沒有爭議的是不是能夠緊速的送進來我希望朝向下個下個禮拜看會排進院會然後排進院會以後我們在五月的上禮所以你也沒有信心你沒有信心下次有有好謝謝希望你要有信心我們下次排進去"},{"start":94.122,"end":120.434,"text":"還有我去年去到日本的時候因為疫情結束了現在觀光客都進到日本去造成日本的米荒以及日本的米價格都上漲了你認為這是一個很好的機會讓我們台灣的稻米可以出口到日本畢竟我們台灣的稻米跟日本的稻米是非常相像的就是"},{"start":121.374,"end":132.336,"text":"大家食用的習慣以及米的品種都非常的相似在這樣的情況下有沒有辦法促成台灣米進口到日本"},{"start":133.338,"end":154.56,"text":"謝謝委員的關心那的確這一年多來日本的稻米它的量不夠的時候那我們預估往年我們每一年外銷的量大概是三千多噸今年我們預估可以到一萬兩千到一萬三千噸可以足足剩下一萬噸那現在我們跟日本在談的其實日本的"},{"start":155.581,"end":179.647,"text":"配合跟我們增加差不多1萬噸以前只有3千多噸而已所以我想我們會努力像委員一直關心這個U值米的外銷那我們也朝這個方向來努力啦那特別是一些極端產區這次的極端產區有很多業者都跟日本有一些合約的訂購所以我們預估這個米在今年度會有比較多的外銷成長"},{"start":180.359,"end":197.108,"text":"因為我看到了4月25日的時候你們的胡刺有到日本去嗎還有跟一些團扇跟一些當地的米的進口的業者有進行座談嗎那我不曉得說這樣子的一個進展未來會不會加速"},{"start":197.688,"end":223.897,"text":"以及過去以來就是說根據WTO的規範只有開放10萬公噸的稻米想關稅的優惠那但是這個10萬公噸有沒有是各國分配不是全部都給台灣嗎那台灣只有分配到1萬公噸那這個部分有沒有辦法再增加呢我想對日本的部分一部分是"},{"start":225.697,"end":251.665,"text":"關稅配額內的關稅配額內的部分那其實配額外的關稅如果能夠適度的調降的話對台灣也是有機會的配額內你所謂的配額內沒有有配額嘛配額內配額內的部分它現在的總量是有管制的但是配額外它的關稅用該高關稅的方式去處理那我們希望說能夠在配額外的關稅能夠做適度的調整"},{"start":252.325,"end":271.847,"text":"那這樣的話我們的米的競爭力就會夠那第二個部分就算他現在關稅不調降的情況之下其實我們還有很多台灣的有機米跟U子米還是外銷到日本表示說我們加上關稅的一個價格在他的高端市場還是有潛力的"},{"start":272.287,"end":285.636,"text":"因為其實不只在高端市場在平價市場你看日本的米的價格5公斤是4,026日元等同大概915元左右的台幣"},{"start":290.7,"end":308.946,"text":"那我們目前以台灣的就是說彰化縣的米價來講平均的零售價格也在5公斤在225元左右所以日本的零售米價超市的零售米價是我們的4倍"},{"start":310.526,"end":332.214,"text":"對不對所以如果我們的稻米能夠輸到日本去即便有少許的關稅對於我們還是很大的利基啊是不是是我剛才說的就是說就像配合的關稅高以現在的價差來講還是有有他的一個利基所以我們現在更積極的跟國外日本的通路商在做連結"},{"start":333.394,"end":358.407,"text":"那這樣子連結到了以後像我們跟西武的那個西鐵的那個鐵道公司還有很多大的通路公司在合作那後續就會幫我們的像包括彰化有很多極端產區的部分我們就會將這些優質米能夠透過這個渠道進到日本市場對因為過去像這個一萬公噸的這個配額有時候是掌握在少數的日本商社手上嘛對不對"},{"start":359.067,"end":374.833,"text":"那一般的業者沒有辦法找到這些入口的就是要出口的這樣子的一個管道那我們要怎麼樣協助其實我們也在做就是就像您說的配額內的有一些掌握在特定的商社"},{"start":375.473,"end":389.441,"text":"那這些特定的商社他也有一些特定的廠商那我們也在跟他談是不是有一些是可以我們推薦一些比較優質的這些米讓他來選擇這樣的話也是另外一個機會能夠讓我們的稻米能夠外交到日本"},{"start":390.73,"end":416.113,"text":"還有就是過去我們台灣米進口到日本的市場我們主要都是業務用米或者是到監獄這樣子其實對於米價是沒有幫助的那未來如果我們要進口到日本的市場那我們一定要走零售的嗎一定要走高單價的通路嗎那這個部分怎麼樣子去做呢"},{"start":416.713,"end":432.882,"text":"不過我想這個牽涉到跟日本的通路的合作那以我們最近在談的這些稻米的部分就是因為像我們的有機就可以走高單價的那我們的U紙米像我們的一級的U紙米的部分那其實可以進到它的賣場"},{"start":433.903,"end":452.714,"text":"那這些賣場過往在我們在行銷我們的鳳梨的時候這些通路都已經在了所以我們現在更積極的跟現在的通路通路能夠加上一項農產品去行銷是比較快的啦所以這個部分包括鳳梨包括米的部分我想我們會積極的進到不同的通路系統去"},{"start":453.174,"end":470.371,"text":"但是我們還是要重塑我們自己台灣米的品牌啊是不是你要進到這種零售市場要進到這種高單價市場對於台灣米的品牌你一定要重塑不能夠讓日本的"},{"start":470.891,"end":492.461,"text":"這些通路認為我們就是過去的業務米啊過去的要販售給監獄的用米啊你如果沒有改變這個形象的時候我們就沒有辦法進到日本的零售市場委員非常了解就是說有一些過往銷到日本他是用類似公糧的配米出去的"},{"start":493.101,"end":505.148,"text":"那現在我們會重新去塑造台灣米的品質就像我們用台灣鳳梨一樣去做市場的區隔啦那這樣的話我相信後續我們台灣米的品牌能夠在日本市場就建立這個我想我們會繼續來努力好 謝謝喔 謝謝部長 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":453,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時41分）謝謝主席。請陳部長。"],["主席：我們請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長好。今天所有委員都非常關注行政院版的動保法，所以我想請教一下，行政院版本什麼時候會送進來？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我們去年8月送到行政院，行政院內部的法規審議已經完成了，剩最後一個階段，就是行政院院會通過就可以送立法院。會後我會儘快跟行政院聯絡，儘快排到院會去做報告後再送到立法院。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你有沒有信心下一次院會就可以送出來？畢竟大家都在關心，這沒有什麼爭議，而且是非常多條文都沒有爭議。"],["陳部長駿季：我會儘量溝通，看能不能排進下禮拜的院會，排進去之後通過就可以送出來了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你有沒有去溝通？"],["陳部長駿季：院會裡所排的案子還是有優先次序，我們還是有……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道，但這是沒有爭議的，是不是能夠儘速的送進來？"],["陳部長駿季：我希望朝向下個禮拜看可不可以排進院會，排進院會後，在5月的上旬就會……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你有沒有信心？你沒有信心在下次院會？"],["陳部長駿季：有。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。希望你要有信心，我們下次排進去。我去年去日本的時候，因為疫情結束了，現在觀光客都進到日本去，造成日本的米荒，以及日本米的價格都上漲了，您認為這是不是一個很好的機會，可以讓我們臺灣的稻米出口到日本？畢竟我們臺灣的稻米跟日本的稻米是非常相像的，就是大家食用的習慣以及米的品種都非常的相似。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：在這樣的情況下，有沒有辦法促成臺灣米出口到日本？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的關心，的確這一年多來，日本的稻米的量不夠的時候，我們預估往年每一年外銷的量大概是三千多噸，今年我們預估可以到1萬2,000到1萬3,000噸，可以足足增加1萬噸，現在我們跟日本在談的是……其實日本的配額跟我們類似……"],["謝委員衣鳯：1萬噸？"],["陳部長駿季：增加1萬噸。"],["謝委員衣鳯：以前只有三、四千多噸，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：以前只有三千多噸而已。所以我們會努力，像委員一直關心優質米的外銷，我們也朝這個方向來努力，特別是一些集團產區，這次的集團產區，有很多業者都跟日本有一些合約的訂購，所以我們預估在今年度的米會有比較多的外銷成長。"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為我看到你們的胡次長在4月25日有到日本去嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：他有跟一些團膳跟一些當地米的進口業者進行座談。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我不曉得這樣子的進展，未來會不會加速？以及過去以來，根據WTO的規範，日本須開放10萬公噸的稻米享關稅的優惠，但是這10萬公噸的配額是由各國分配，不是全部都給臺灣，臺灣只有分配不到1萬公噸，這個部分有沒有辦法再增加呢？"],["陳部長駿季：對日本的部分，一部分是配額內的關稅，而配額外的關稅，如果能夠適度的調降的話，對臺灣也是有機會的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：配合？你所謂的配合內？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，它有配額……"],["謝委員衣鳯：配額內啦！"],["陳部長駿季：配額內的部分，它現在的總量是有管制的，但是配額外是用高關稅的方式去處理，我們希望在配額外的關稅，能夠做適度的調整，這樣的話，我們米的競爭力就會夠；第二個部分，就算現在關稅不調降的情況之下，其實我們還有很多臺灣的有機米跟優質米還是有外銷到日本，表示我們加上關稅的價格，在它的高端市場還是有潛力的，所以為什麼我們現在……"],["謝委員衣鳯：不只在高端市場，在平價市場……你看日本的米的價格，5公斤是4,026日圓，等同大概915元左右的臺幣。"],["陳部長駿季：大概1,000元左右。"],["謝委員衣鳯：目前以臺灣我們彰化縣的米價來講，平均的零售價格5公斤在225元左右，所以日本超市的零售米價是我們的4到5倍，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：4到5倍。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果我們的稻米能夠輸到日本去，即便有少許的關稅，對於我們還是有很大的利基，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是，我剛才有提到，就像配額外的關稅高，以現在的價差來講，還是有它的一個利基，所以我們現在更積極的跟日本的通路商在做連結，連結到了以後，像我們跟西鐵鐵道公司及有很多大的通路在合作，後續會幫我們的像包括彰化有很多集團產區的部分，我們就會將這些優質米能夠透過這個渠道進到日本市場。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，因為過去像這1萬公噸的配額，有時候是掌握在少數的日本商社手上，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：一般的業者沒有辦法找到這些出口的管道，我們要怎麼樣協助？"],["陳部長駿季：其實我們也都有在做，像您提到配額內的有一些是掌握在特定的商社，這些特定的商社也有一些特定的廠商，我們有在跟他們談，推薦一些比較優質的這些米讓他們來選擇，這樣也是另外一個機會，能夠讓我們的稻米外銷到日本。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有過去我們臺灣米出口到日本的市場，主要都是業務用米或者是到監獄，其實這樣對於米價是沒有幫助的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：未來如果我們要出口到日本的市場，一定要走零售的嗎？一定要走高單價的通路嗎？這個部分怎麼樣去做呢？"],["陳部長駿季：這個牽涉到跟日本通路的合作，以我們最近在談的這些稻米的部分，像我們的有機米就可以走高單價的通路，而一級的優質米的部分，其實可以進到他們的賣場，過往我們在這些賣場行銷我們的鳳梨的時候，這些通路都已經在了，所以我們現在更積極地跟現在的通路，能夠加上一項農產品去行銷是比較快的，包括鳳梨、米的部分，我們會積極地進到不同的通路系統。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是我們還是要重塑我們自己臺灣米的品牌，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：要進到這種零售市場，要進到這種高單價市場，對於臺灣米的品牌，一定要重塑，不能夠再讓日本的這些通路認為我們就是過去的業務米或是販售給監獄的用米啊！你如果沒有改變這個形象，我們就沒有辦法進到日本的零售市場。"],["陳部長駿季：委員非常了解，就是有一些過往銷到日本，用類似公糧的配米出去的，現在我們會重新塑造臺灣米的品質，就像我們用臺灣鳳梨一樣，去做市場的區隔，這樣的話，我相信後續我們臺灣米的品牌，才能夠在日本市場建立，這個我們會繼續來努力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席（謝委員衣鳯）：現在請楊瓊瓔委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","葉元之","蔡易餘","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","邱議瑩","張雅琳","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員呂玉\n玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員劉建國等 16 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案；七、本\n院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」\n案；八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員李坤城等\n22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案；十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十四、本院委員郭昱晴\n等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護\n法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保\n護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案；十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動\n物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正\n草案」案；十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案；二\n十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二十一、本院委\n員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬\n具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案；二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五\n條之二條文修正草案」案；二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等 17 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17 人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案\n（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144501_00004"}}},{"id":"160778","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160778","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369985d2e3fd0515ced3c0ba1d923b4b8dbc2100e055cb594031eeae6d87bcf22d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"10:28:51 - 10:41:28","影片長度":"00:12:37","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T10:28:51+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:41:28+08:00","duration":757,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.8953437500000003,"end":6.494093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.422218750000001,"end":7.995968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.88534375,"end":51.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.020343750000002,"end":14.610968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.478468750000005,"end":53.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.250343750000006,"end":62.063468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.578468750000006,"end":64.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.08846875,"end":66.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.40471875,"end":84.43971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.50846875,"end":77.28471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.00096875,"end":89.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.29971875000001,"end":91.17284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.40096875,"end":89.73846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.37534375,"end":94.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.48034375,"end":99.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.84659375000001,"end":108.46971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.71909375000001,"end":130.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.00971875,"end":109.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.05159375000001,"end":111.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.75159375000001,"end":114.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.65846875000001,"end":116.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.07596875,"end":117.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.49284375,"end":123.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.23534375000001,"end":123.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.88034375000001,"end":127.26846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.12471875,"end":129.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.79971875,"end":132.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.28471875,"end":134.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.41909375,"end":151.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.15909375,"end":152.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.49659375000002,"end":154.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.96034375000002,"end":176.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.15096875,"end":182.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.85471875000002,"end":182.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.90534375000001,"end":187.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.83284375000002,"end":194.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.71784375000001,"end":206.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.24784375000002,"end":205.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.90159375000002,"end":209.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.19659375,"end":209.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.53409375,"end":215.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.40284375000002,"end":212.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.38971875000001,"end":224.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.95784375000002,"end":226.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.52721875,"end":228.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.85596875000002,"end":231.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.67409375000003,"end":236.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.87596875000003,"end":260.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.92221875,"end":238.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.90471875000003,"end":242.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.93721875000003,"end":249.39284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.98721875,"end":253.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.27409375000002,"end":253.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.47221875000002,"end":255.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.75034375,"end":257.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.80909375,"end":259.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.32784375,"end":266.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.63971875000004,"end":262.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.20909375,"end":264.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.41534375000003,"end":317.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.39346875,"end":272.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.52221875000004,"end":285.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.58971875000003,"end":285.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.74971875,"end":288.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.32721875000004,"end":291.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.51284375,"end":291.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.86284375,"end":293.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.19096875,"end":299.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.22409375,"end":303.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.27034375,"end":304.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.78846875,"end":310.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.59346875,"end":316.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.84221875000003,"end":318.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.58034375,"end":331.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.67096875000004,"end":334.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.72159375,"end":333.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.62409375000004,"end":336.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.29471875,"end":339.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.53909375,"end":341.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.58096875,"end":342.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.16721875,"end":347.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.09096875,"end":345.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.67721875,"end":347.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.04846875000004,"end":347.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.09909375,"end":347.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.35221875,"end":349.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.06909375000004,"end":352.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.54971875,"end":360.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.43034375,"end":361.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.37096875000003,"end":365.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.99909375000004,"end":366.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.97784375000003,"end":372.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.14596875,"end":371.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.78284375000004,"end":419.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.47846875000005,"end":377.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.39784375000005,"end":380.62971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.47721875,"end":386.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.72159375,"end":387.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.55596875000003,"end":393.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.68096875000003,"end":403.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.27471875000003,"end":411.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.87346875000003,"end":414.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.89784375000005,"end":433.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.24596875000003,"end":433.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.61721875,"end":435.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.37221875,"end":447.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.16784375000003,"end":456.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.20159375000003,"end":447.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.36471875,"end":484.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.40409375,"end":475.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.54721875,"end":479.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.37346875000003,"end":482.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.48284375000003,"end":500.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.08159375,"end":486.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.02659375,"end":487.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.64471875000004,"end":526.5478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.6284687500001,"end":524.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.21034375,"end":528.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.30284375,"end":528.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.48846875,"end":528.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.57284375,"end":553.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.60659375,"end":528.6740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.6653437500001,"end":531.0703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.73159375,"end":539.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.95471875,"end":542.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.40909375,"end":550.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.9740937500001,"end":553.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.5815937500001,"end":558.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.31971875,"end":556.5178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.04096875,"end":557.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.96471875,"end":560.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.5634687500001,"end":566.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.45721875,"end":570.4565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.41909375,"end":568.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.3428437499999,"end":581.0203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.62909375,"end":574.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.34534375,"end":584.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.9522187499999,"end":586.2009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.5890937500001,"end":590.2509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.6140937499999,"end":588.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.62221875,"end":590.6897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.90909375,"end":594.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.9428437500001,"end":593.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.6047187500001,"end":597.4565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.91659375,"end":597.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.96284375,"end":599.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.30409375,"end":602.9240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.3628437500001,"end":606.2990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.78846875,"end":624.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.64034375,"end":610.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.79159375,"end":613.8928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.1484687500001,"end":629.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.1140937499999,"end":629.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.3334687500001,"end":638.3447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.1297187499999,"end":664.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.9015937500001,"end":639.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.4740937500001,"end":647.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.8259687500001,"end":664.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.3997187500001,"end":670.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.7109687500001,"end":680.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.64659375,"end":678.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.2578437500001,"end":684.0422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.0759687500001,"end":684.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.4640937500001,"end":690.5053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.4809687500001,"end":684.4978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.8015937499999,"end":685.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.9609687500001,"end":711.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":711.2278437500001,"end":718.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.7709687500001,"end":727.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.17159375,"end":721.7409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.1372187500001,"end":725.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":728.0522187500001,"end":754.8159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":732.67596875,"end":733.1147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":734.5490937500001,"end":735.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":736.47284375,"end":736.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.68721875,"end":742.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.3740937500002,"end":747.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.03159375,"end":752.4028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":754.86659375,"end":755.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":755.9128437500001,"end":756.80721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.542,"end":27.738,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長陳部長部長今天我的議題比較多 那你就簡單回答我想今天我們在談這個動保法我們已經等很久了終於我們也看到我們的一個修正公告的一個狀況"},{"start":29.699,"end":52.964,"text":"我要必須請教的是現在兩個非常重要的議題這個在我的修法版本裡面都有就是說我們怎麼去更詳盡規範我們對寵物的飼主管理的責任更能夠加重在於如果飼主虐待或是故意傷害宰殺動物的行者這個部分我們怎麼做"},{"start":54.298,"end":83.908,"text":"我想針對這個虐待跟宰殺的部分我們會再加重刑罰加重刑責的部分這個刑責的部分我們在這次修法都有就有放進去都有放進去所以這個部分是我們從過去到現在我們愛動物的人士其實一直看待看到心裡都很痛的部分所以這個部分我們在這次動保法裡面有嚴格再去加強做一個修正"},{"start":84.529,"end":98.926,"text":"還有一個我跟委員補充就是委員非常關心的就是另外一個方式就是棄養那過去棄養的時候沒有很明確的界定什麼叫棄養所以這次的修法裡面也納入了比較明確的棄養就是說"},{"start":100.147,"end":108.555,"text":"當你不要養的時候你一定要經過收容的這個程序你才能夠所以有一個SOP啦就是說你如果說你要棄養你不能隨便丟你要經過整個收容的整個過程有一個SOP不是說不行就是說你如果養寵物"},{"start":120.806,"end":134.523,"text":"養到你自己覺得你的經濟能力有問題了你想把它能夠找一個比較好安置的地方可以透過收容不要棄養對 這個也是委員之前關心的對 我們一直在強調的那第二個部分就是說"},{"start":135.504,"end":153.983,"text":"在我們現在看到很多寵物出入公共場所那因為沒有做好很好的防護措施而造成別人一般民眾或是動物的傷害那這個部分呢現在這幾天這一段時間最多的就是比特犬是那這個部分我們怎麼做"},{"start":155.014,"end":170.364,"text":"在比特選的部分雖然說我們已經列入了相關的這些禁止飼養而有強制登記但是相對的這些登記有一些黑數的部分我們會盡量再把這個黑數找出來那更重要一點就是以比特也跳上這個案件來講"},{"start":171.244,"end":187.273,"text":"他之前已經傷害過一次了可是我們現在開始在做規劃就是說當這個具有攻擊性的犬隻你如果事主沒有盡到責任咬到人的時候我就會沒路一次就沒路而不是讓他用裁發的方式去處理"},{"start":187.893,"end":214.907,"text":"除了没入之后呢在我们相对的对于一般民众跟动物的保护该怎么办就是说他今天如果因为这个宠物出入公共场所然后没有做好一个适当的防护措施造成人或动物的伤害这个部分除了没入这个犬吃这个没有问题可是下一步其他的呢"},{"start":215.55,"end":231.026,"text":"我想我們基本上像這些比較具攻擊性的我們出門一定有一定的規範包括事主的責任就是你的鏈條的長度你的戴口罩然後你一定要成年人才能夠戴出去這些規範都有你如果沒有"},{"start":231.747,"end":252.503,"text":"有這個規範然後造成了傷害的時候你那個行者是會被加重的所以就會有行者加重的問題所以我們這一次有把它很清楚定了SOP就是說你今天把我們的寵物帶出去如果是一個比較有攻擊性的一些犬隻可能我們要做到什麼樣的防護"},{"start":253.464,"end":272.256,"text":"SOP都有了那如果沒有造成傷害那麼就會有加重刑責的部分說真的我們希望進到更多的呼籲跟宣導我說真的這是最後這個刑責都是最後那我們前面宣導很重要"},{"start":272.916,"end":294.082,"text":"這也拜託我們的農業部就是說我們訂了這些SOP我剛剛所講的就是市主的管養責任還有我們市主帶出去應該有的一些防護措施這些都已經有SOP了在這一次的動保法裡面我們要去宣傳要讓大家更知道了解不修完之後"},{"start":294.702,"end":318.348,"text":"就不見了大家不知道應該更清楚讓大家知道你該怎麼做然後如果沒有怎麼做你就會有怎麼樣的一個刑責跟處罰所以包括棄養的部分現在也有一定的程序所以我覺得這個都要把它做很清楚的一些公佈跟宣導這個再拜託我們的部長謝謝委員的提醒我們會加強來做然後呢"},{"start":319.588,"end":320.369,"text":"現在台南的土地很多"},{"start":337.315,"end":361.235,"text":"只能清盤去啊 喔是啊 啊這個果扒盤 青菜基本上都馬上就達到這個標準其實是一個很小的地喔 是所以他們說這個部分該怎麼辦難道都沒有檢討的機制嗎我跟委員報告齁 其實這個部分其實以農業部來講我們內部就有一些檢討 而且行政院也有做一些溝通那現在就是說"},{"start":362.666,"end":379.564,"text":"農業部的老農津貼牌部的條款我們有一些設計但是整個是要跟其他的八大社福的津貼要一致性那現在正在做溝通因為當時候我們在處理這一塊我們有討論過希望說是不是可以照著什麼樣的一個指數調整可是"},{"start":381.105,"end":403.628,"text":"當時候有很多就像你講的要搭八大社福津貼下去做調整所以我覺得這個部分因為它牽扯的就是我們的一個市值的問題現在整個市值物價都往上提升所以包括我們八大社福的津貼都應該一致性的調整"},{"start":404.249,"end":433.303,"text":"我覺得應該是這個樣子因為已經沒有辦法跟著上整個世代潮流的一個轉變了所以大家都站在這裡恐怖結果我們的社福今天還在一個最基本數所以這個是不對的所以我拜託部長這個部分是我們這段時間在走訪基層的時候所有農民每一個人大概都提出這樣的意見他說沒辦法我們農民就都被排掉了是"},{"start":433.903,"end":455.602,"text":"馬上就被排掉了而且那是很小喔很小的一塊地喔那我們也感同身受因為我們希望是地方的發展台南的發展發展之後得給的撲阿這是相對的嘛所以我覺得這個部分拜託我們的部長多久你可以有一個方向跟我們的相關單位去討論"},{"start":456.583,"end":474.658,"text":"我想我們農業部在內部的評估其實我們已經有完整的評估但是我們也提到了行政院去去做討論所以我會把我們這段時間不只您還有很多地方的聲音都有這個議題我會再跟行政院反映看看可不可以在中間啟動"},{"start":478.42,"end":499.867,"text":"一定要重新啟動我個人是覺得說是應該要調整啦所以我會再跟行政院來反映再拜託啦我覺得我們也會跟院長去報告這件事情那另外就是說部長在這一次我們的特別條例特別預算裡面我們農業在這一次關稅的衝擊所編列的預算太少了吧"},{"start":500.68,"end":514.026,"text":"我跟委員報告我們編列現在目前編列是181但是有一個現在比較困擾的地方就是現在的關稅32%是暫緩實施90天是以10%的基準關稅為主所以它的關稅還沒確定之下以現在10%我們覺得現在這10%裡面181是可以去支持的"},{"start":523.57,"end":552.689,"text":"但是未來未來如果有調整的時候請問這個談刑是誰在定沒有你現在送出來就一百八十億啊而且部長我再跟你強調一點你還記得在第一時間發生的時候就在這個質詢台當中我就跟您就教蝴蝶蘭的問題也請你一個月要提出我們在蝴蝶蘭轉移陣地轉移基地到美國台堂基地去做這樣的一個聯盟機制"},{"start":553.671,"end":560.333,"text":"打一個台灣隊打一個國家隊這個很重要但是這個部分你預算好像沒看到"},{"start":562.438,"end":589.229,"text":"這個部分是在增加對外投資的部分是啊對外投資啊可是也在農業部的部分相對的我們有把這個議題列入就是說當他到美國去的時候他的一些融資有沒有他的一些融資減免的部分利息減免你只有融資減免你知道他如果一個產業要去到美國台糖基地就只有融資嗎"},{"start":591.01,"end":599.51,"text":"救助融資嗎 你有沒有看到我們經濟部我們經濟部在企業的一個協助當中跟我們農業差太多了吧"},{"start":601.345,"end":619.014,"text":"部長猜太多了吧所以在這個國際競爭力當中胡鐵人剛好是一個很重要的標的剛好有台糖基地如果你沒有這個台糖基地他也沒有辦法剛好有這個台糖基地他可以依照台糖基地讓我們的產業進駐然後協助產業去做一個聯盟"},{"start":625.197,"end":638.267,"text":"打一個國家隊這個部分你們要列入優先啊這跟我們報告齁胡田產業我也親自跟業者座談了齁然後針對台糖的基地我們現在也在跟台糖那邊去協調我知道你們有在談我的意思是說"},{"start":640.308,"end":663.47,"text":"你沒有協助經費的到位轉型我告訴你這些廠商要怎麼有信心呢這是第一點 所以我拜託你這個部分你一定要增加進去第二個就是我們的台灣雕其實在台灣雕 台南端兩行最重要而且所吃的比例最高的一個就是蝴蝶蘭 一個就是台灣雕"},{"start":664.611,"end":683.837,"text":"所以台灣雕你知道嗎我們現在不能只有把眼睛放在我們的美國也就是把雞蛋放在美國的這個籃子裡我們勢必是要把所有世界各國的通路都找進來所以台灣雕什麼很重要整個的加工製造很重要"},{"start":684.637,"end":713.01,"text":"我們現在台灣雕說真的它是可以做成真空然後完全食材都在裡面它只要加熱這符合外國它實用的一個習慣放下去加熱之後就可以用了所以我們要怎麼把這個加工增加加強跟我們的產業給他們更有新興這個也是我們這一波一定要加強的這個已經放進去包括"},{"start":713.79,"end":734.188,"text":"那個台灣雕的魚片魚凍條跟整個生鮮生鮮的部分生鮮的部分我是說加工加工真空加工等等你的預算是納入預算不夠啊部長現在我們就要利用這一波給予更多的支持我是給你提醒了齁"},{"start":734.968,"end":754.055,"text":"因為我在台南我很清楚蝴蝶蘭跟台灣雕是我們兩個很重要的指標在這一波關稅的影響而且它佔的比例是全國最高所以這個部分麻煩一下我們需要的這些是協助經費的協助讓我們有感謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":381,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（10時28分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，今天我的議題比較多，你就簡單回答。今天我們在談這個動保法，我們已經等很久了，終於看到修正公告的狀況，我必須要請教的是，現在有兩個非常重要的議題，在我的修法版本裡面都有，我們怎麼去更詳盡規範，加重寵物飼主管理的責任，就是如果飼主虐待或是故意傷害、宰殺動物的刑責，這個部分怎麼做？"],["陳部長駿季：針對虐待跟宰殺的部分，我們會再以加重刑罰、加重刑責來處理。"],["陳委員亭妃：刑責的部分，我們在這次修法都有……"],["陳部長駿季：有放進去。"],["陳委員亭妃：都有放進去嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個是從過去到現在，我們愛動物人士看到心裡一直都很痛的部分，所以這個部分在這次動保法裡面有嚴格、加強修訂。"],["陳部長駿季：還有一個，我跟委員補充一下，對於委員非常關心的另外一個部分──棄養。"],["陳委員亭妃：是。"],["陳部長駿季：過去沒有很明確的界定什麼叫做棄養，所以這次修法也納入了比較明確的棄養，就是當你不要養的時候，一定要經過收容的程序才能夠……"],["陳委員亭妃：有一個SOP。"],["陳部長駿季：對，有一個SOP出來。"],["陳委員亭妃：如果要棄養，你不能隨便丟，要經過整個收容的過程，有一個SOP，不是說不行，如果養寵物養到自己覺得自己的經濟能力有問題了，想幫牠找一個比較好的安置地方，可以透過收容，不要棄養。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個也是委員之前關心的。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，我們一直在強調的。第二個部分，我們現在看到很多寵物出入公共場所，因為沒有做好防護措施而造成一般民眾或是動物的傷害，針對這個部分，這一段時間最多的就是比特犬。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個部分該怎麼做？"],["陳部長駿季：在比特犬的部分，雖然我們已經列入禁止飼養，而且要強制登記，但是這些登記有一些黑數的部分，我們會儘量把這些黑數找出來。更重要一點，以比特犬跳窗這個案件來講，牠之前已經傷害過一次了，可是我們現在開始在做規劃，當這個具有攻擊性的犬隻，如果飼主沒有盡到責任，讓牠咬到人的時候，我們就會沒入，一次就會沒入，而不是用裁罰的方式去處理。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒入之後呢？相對於一般民眾跟動物的保護該怎麼辦？他今天如果因為寵物出入公共場所沒有做好適當的防護措施而造成人或動物的傷害，這個部分除了沒入犬隻，沒入犬隻是沒有問題，可是下一步呢？"],["陳部長駿季：基本上像這些比較具攻擊性的，對於其出門有一定的規範，包括飼主的責任，像是鏈條的長度、要戴口罩，然後一定要是成年人才能夠帶出去，這些規範都有，如果沒有遵守這個規範而造成傷害的時候，他的刑責是會被加重的。"],["陳委員亭妃：就會有刑責加重的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以這一次有把它很清楚的訂了SOP。"],["陳部長駿季：是，有把它放進去了。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以這次我們很清楚訂定了SOP，也就是當寵物帶出去，如果遇到比較有攻擊性的犬隻時，需要做到什麼樣防護的SOP都有了？"],["陳部長駿季：有。"],["陳委員亭妃：如果造成傷害，就會加重刑責？說真的，我們希望能做到更多的呼籲及宣導，畢竟刑責已經是最後了，所以前面的宣導很重要！本席在此拜託農業部，當訂定SOP後，有關飼主的管養責任、飼主帶寵物出去應該有的防護措施，在這一次動保法裡都有了，那就要去宣傳，讓大家更知道！"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["陳委員亭妃：而不是修完之後就不見了，大家也不知道！我認為應該讓大家更清楚知道該怎麼做，如果沒有的話，就會有怎麼樣的刑責跟處罰，包括棄養在內，現在也有一定程序，所以我覺得這些都要清楚公布跟宣導。這些再拜託部長。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員提醒，我們會加強來做。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我們最近走訪基層時，農民最大的聲音就是五百萬的排富條款！你知道現在臺南土地增值多少嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：一、兩千萬以上了。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，所以五百萬的標準很容易就能達到，就算只是一塊很小的地！所以他們說這部分該怎麼辦？難道沒有檢討機制嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：委員報告，以農業部來講，我們內部對此有檢討，也跟行政院做溝通。目前農業部對於老農津貼排富條款有一些設計，但必須跟其他的八大社福津貼有一致性，所以現在正在做溝通。"],["陳委員亭妃：當初在處理這一塊時我們有討論過，希望可以照著什麼樣的指數來調整，可是當時候有很多……就像你講的要搭八大……"],["陳部長駿季：八大社福津貼。"],["陳委員亭妃：下去做調整。其實這部分牽扯到市值問題，且現在市值、物價都往上提升，因此包括八大社福津貼都應該做一致性的調整，我覺得應該是這樣子，否則沒有辦法跟上世代潮流的轉變！地價漲得這麼恐怖，結果社福津貼還在最基本數，這是不對的！我拜託部長，這段時間我們在走訪基層時，大概每一個農民都提出這樣的意見，認為五百萬的話馬上就被排掉了！馬上就被排掉了！即使只是很小、很小的一塊地，這讓我們感同身受。我們希望地方能發展，臺南能發展，而發展之後地價就上來了，這是相對的，所以這部分拜託部長！請部長跟相關單位去討論，然後多久時間可以給我們一個方向？"],["陳部長駿季：以農業部的內部評估來說，其實已經有完整的評估，也提到行政院討論。其實這段時間，不只委員您，地方很多聲音都提到這個議題，我會再跟行政院反映，看看可不可以重新啟動，啟動相關的……"],["陳委員亭妃：這很重要！一定要重新啟動，一定要重新啟動！"],["陳部長駿季：我個人是覺得應該要調整！"],["陳委員亭妃：對！"],["陳部長駿季：所以我會再跟行政院反映。"],["陳委員亭妃：再拜託啦！我們也會跟院長報告這件事。","另外，在這一次特別條例的特別預算裡，農業部因應這次關稅衝擊所編列的預算太少了吧？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，目前是編列180億，現在比較困擾的地方是，32%的關稅暫緩實施90天，所以目前以10%的基準關稅為主。在關稅尚未確定下，我們覺得10%、108億是可以支持的。但未來如果調整的時候……"],["陳委員亭妃：所以啊！請問彈性是誰在定？現在送出來的就是180億？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我再跟你強調一點，你還記得第一時間發生時，就在這個質詢台上，我就請教您關於蝴蝶蘭的問題，並請您於一個月提出報告，針對蝴蝶蘭轉移陣地、轉移基地到美國台糖基地去進行聯盟，打臺灣隊、打國家隊一事做研究，這點很重要！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：但預算上好像沒看到這部分？"],["陳部長駿季：這是增加對外投資的部分……"],["陳委員亭妃：是對外投資，可是也在農業部的經費裡啊！"],["陳部長駿季：相對的，其實我們有把這議題列入……"],["陳委員亭妃：有把議題列入？"],["陳部長駿季：對，到美國去的時候，有關融資減免、利息減免的部分……"],["陳委員亭妃：只有融資減免？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：一個產業要移到美國台糖基地去，就只有融資嗎？就只有融資嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告……"],["陳委員亭妃：你有沒有看到經濟部對企業的協助？跟農業部差太多了吧？部長，差太多了吧？我認為在國際競爭力中，蝴蝶蘭剛好是一個很重要的標的，現在剛好有台糖基地，如果沒有台糖基地的話也沒有辦法！剛好有台糖基地，所以讓我們的產業進駐台糖基地，然後協助產業成立聯盟打國家隊，所以你們要列入優先啊！"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，我親自跟蝴蝶蘭業者座談了，至於台糖基地，我們現在也在跟台糖……"],["陳委員亭妃：我知道你們有在談，但我的意思是，你沒有協助經費的到位與轉型，如此這些廠商要怎麼有信心呢？這是第一個，所以我拜託這部分一定增加進去。第二個，臺灣鯛。其實臺南有兩項最重要的產業且比例最高的就是蝴蝶蘭與臺灣鯛。所以我們現在不能只把眼睛放在美國，也就是不能只把雞蛋放在美國這個籃子裡，而是要把所有世界各國的通路都找進來。對臺灣鯛來說什麼很重要？加工製造很重要！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：說真的，現在臺灣鯛可以做成真空，把食材完全包在裡面，只要加熱就可以，符合外國人的食用習慣，加熱之後就可以食用了。因此，我們加強加工，讓產業更有信心，我認為這也是這一波一定要加強的。"],["陳部長駿季：有，已經放進去了，包括臺灣鯛魚片、凍條跟生鮮部分……"],["陳委員亭妃：生鮮部分？我是說加工，真空加工等等，所以你納入的預算不夠啊！部長，現在我們要利用這一波給予更多支持。我是給你提醒……"],["陳部長駿季：我了解。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為我在臺南，所以我很清楚，蝴蝶蘭跟臺灣鯛在這一波關稅的影響下，是兩個很重要的指標，而且所占的比例是全國最高的，所以這部分麻煩一下！我們需要的是協助，特別是經費的協助，請讓我們有感，謝謝。"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔代）：接下來我們請謝衣鳯召委做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","葉元之","蔡易餘","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","邱議瑩","張雅琳","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員呂玉\n玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員劉建國等 16 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案；七、本\n院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」\n案；八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員李坤城等\n22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案；十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十四、本院委員郭昱晴\n等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護\n法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保\n護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案；十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動\n物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正\n草案」案；十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案；二\n十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二十一、本院委\n員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬\n具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案；二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五\n條之二條文修正草案」案；二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等 17 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17 人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案\n（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144501_00004"}}},{"id":"160777","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160777","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369d5c4136c61b6bb630ca66b6f3bc7c703c2100e055cb594032beb4618946eee9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"10:38:24 - 10:51:14","影片長度":"00:12:50","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T10:38:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:51:14+08:00","duration":770,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.90846875,"end":3.5072187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.283468750000001,"end":6.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.797218750000003,"end":114.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.21971875000001,"end":211.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.35659375,"end":212.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.14534375000002,"end":249.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.70909375000002,"end":256.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.53096875,"end":299.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.62971875,"end":366.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.31534375,"end":379.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.57534375,"end":378.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.53284375000004,"end":392.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.42971875,"end":395.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.40409375,"end":398.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.46284375000005,"end":396.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.95596875,"end":399.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.69409375000004,"end":418.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.41721875,"end":427.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.73346875000004,"end":419.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.09096875,"end":426.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.81659375000004,"end":432.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.47409375,"end":436.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.27971875000003,"end":433.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.98846875000004,"end":434.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.37221875,"end":447.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.03284375000004,"end":448.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.83846875,"end":449.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.95221875000004,"end":457.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.39846875,"end":458.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.79471875,"end":463.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.20346875,"end":463.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.63784375,"end":470.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.24096875000004,"end":467.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.79721875,"end":477.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.74971875000006,"end":483.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.17096875000004,"end":485.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.30534375,"end":487.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.61721875,"end":490.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.89971875000003,"end":491.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.01721875000004,"end":501.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.59846875000005,"end":504.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.24784375,"end":514.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.27534375,"end":522.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.26159375,"end":525.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.52721875,"end":527.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.63221875,"end":535.0022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.2397187500001,"end":530.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.41221875,"end":531.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.96846875,"end":534.9853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.0022187500001,"end":537.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.0190937500001,"end":535.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.31409375,"end":538.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.88784375,"end":545.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.20721875,"end":546.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.2578437500001,"end":546.6965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.6965937500001,"end":546.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.78096875,"end":547.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.43909375,"end":547.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.04659375,"end":551.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.3503437500001,"end":555.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.31971875,"end":556.6697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.19721875,"end":556.2647187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.83409375,"end":557.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.9184687500001,"end":571.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.9522187499999,"end":560.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.4409687500001,"end":562.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.6384687500001,"end":569.8490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.62534375,"end":571.8403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.8403437500001,"end":579.3328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.23159375,"end":596.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.7209687500001,"end":580.2947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.2122187500001,"end":597.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.8784687500001,"end":602.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.01284375,"end":602.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.83971875,"end":610.5009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.83846875,"end":613.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.9265937499999,"end":614.0109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.0109687500001,"end":614.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.0278437500001,"end":614.0447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.0447187500001,"end":614.0615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.0615937499999,"end":614.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.28096875,"end":614.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.39909375,"end":614.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.41596875,"end":614.4665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.4665937500001,"end":614.4834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.4834687499999,"end":614.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.6015937500001,"end":614.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.66909375,"end":614.9053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.9053437499999,"end":616.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.8797187499999,"end":635.8134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.3459687500001,"end":631.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.8647187500001,"end":644.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.5347187500001,"end":637.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.6984687500001,"end":692.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.6328437500001,"end":685.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.88534375,"end":690.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.4797187500001,"end":694.0828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":694.5890937500001,"end":702.1828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":695.24721875,"end":695.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":702.4865937500001,"end":706.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.5659687500001,"end":710.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":710.6709687500002,"end":712.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":713.0334687500001,"end":714.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":714.82221875,"end":715.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":716.5772187500002,"end":733.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":732.5578437500001,"end":737.7722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":737.3334687500001,"end":758.1572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.71846875,"end":758.3428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":758.52846875,"end":762.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":758.7647187500002,"end":759.7265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":760.92471875,"end":761.8359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":762.7978437500001,"end":764.6709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":768.09659375,"end":770.2903437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.916,"end":5.939,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉 有請院長請院長備質詢 謝謝好 院長早我看你在今天的報告中有講到你們做的文化平權那也有看到就是說有個身障者參與的畫面那我想繼續追問這一題那在追問前我要肯定一下就是我們看到你們去年辦了多元性別"},{"start":29.215,"end":53.958,"text":"就是博物館中的就是多元性的博物館的國際線上論壇那這裡面也有看到博物館中的LGBTQIA plus的平等跟可見性那我想這是非常好的跟當代很多的議題結合那也跟博物館的國際趨勢能夠有更多的對話那肯定希望未來能夠有更多相關的規劃那它也是一種文化的平權"},{"start":55.059,"end":83.727,"text":"那再來我針對今天關注的文化平權中的深藏者那我要跟院長提醒這題你看到就是說我去年3月27號就跟您質詢了那去年10月24號再次質詢然後去年底的預算案再次提出那不過很遺憾的是也要跟院長講那我不知道你們每次答應我的事情"},{"start":84.247,"end":93.65,"text":"好像跟後來我收到的報告都有一個某種程度的落差我去年3月27號是質詢說你們應該要有無障礙的整體規劃機制確保決策機制的身心障礙者代表過半因為這個是國際公約了無障礙服務有一個服務應該要定期檢討院長您承諾三個月內提供規劃報告"},{"start":108.934,"end":110.519,"text":"就你的報告洋洋灑灑喔除了我問的英國的VMA他們怎麼做之外"},{"start":115.45,"end":138.815,"text":"講了國際的例子就把你們做過找了誰來演講然後看來演講就是三年差不多三年會邀一個相關的人來演講就講了很多現在已經有的那當然那些是很好可是我們要的不是一些單點的東西而是我們的確是收到陳情案你們之前因為那個斜坡入口邀很多山葬者可是他們感受到"},{"start":139.375,"end":161.504,"text":"你們把工程的過程跟之後並沒有繼續就是給予他們當天表達的意見的回覆也沒有做到那所以才會收到澄清案那當時你承諾的部分三個月內給我規劃報告結果規劃報告裡面只有在結尾的時候講說你們已經有一個提升服務品質的專案會議會針對無障礙定期檢討也會追蹤列管可是呢如何定期也沒有告訴我們"},{"start":168.847,"end":191.226,"text":"这是3月27号所以我过了半年我再次质询那次质询更夸张你们的回复我问了两题只回复就是保护的安全针对无障碍的部分完全没回也因为这样子我在去年底的预算案再次要求你们要研议我们要的是一个身心障碍平等参与机制嘛"},{"start":192.006,"end":212.055,"text":"為什麼是機制?機制之後就不需要我質詢了,它會自己運作那你們也答應了今年1月31日前提供書面報告我很遺憾,今年1月31日前又沒有回覆後來我辦公室去追之後,你們才"},{"start":213.206,"end":220.554,"text":"回給我們一頁的東西裡面說因為本辦去口頭洽詢所以給了我們一個相關諮詢委員會的名單名單本身我看起來當然不錯然後呢可是也沒有講機制只是說你們這個名單是個諮詢委員會好像有個委員會並且預告"},{"start":234.67,"end":239.835,"text":"4月2日會辦理提升服務品質專案會議又回到原來那個專案會議說你們會在專案會議中邀請你們的所謂身心障礙諮詢委員參與然後實地勘查議程課證嚴明中"},{"start":250.766,"end":255.83,"text":"哇噻 已經過了快一年了然後我們再次詢問說連一個會議都還沒有開開一個會要超過一年的規劃然後終於我就請辦公室把4月2號之後開會的東西會議紀錄找來看"},{"start":269.581,"end":295.97,"text":"會議就找來看之後呢我覺得這個好像不是個委員會吧看起來你們也說是座談會那本來副院長主持看起來很好可是副院長黃副院長好像只有去開場之後又交給下面的人主持那我看這個會議記錄我覺得大家都非常的感謝你們都是稱讚然後但是也說了很多不足之處那觸目驚心啊包含說你們其中有一個地方有點字對不對給盲人的服務啊"},{"start":298.211,"end":300.052,"text":"但是那個是無法是錯誤的因為你們在工程的驗收的時候沒有請身障團體來檢驗所以那個是錯誤的因為點字中間距離太大這不是浪費工廠嗎"},{"start":314.936,"end":323.523,"text":"你做了一個點字的東西然後我們的深藏團體現場告訴你們說距離太大所以無法辨識然後請求你們未來在檢驗工程品質的時候請他們來我覺得我們深藏團體真的很委屈對於做了一點點的事情稱讚不已對於遇到的問題我們看起來是浪費工廠的東西然後就是很委婉的要求"},{"start":342.138,"end":365.569,"text":"而且副院長本來應該要全程參與我們要一個委員會像我們以前在台北市的性平委員會就是主委是市長我參加過市長只要沒有到最後我們是會檢視你這一季開一次市長來幾次副院長到了開個場就走下面的人都會看院長副院長不關心我幹嘛認真做這件事所以我想請問"},{"start":367.39,"end":390.567,"text":"院長你這個委員會是個委員會嗎你們給我的書面報告針對我的預算案說你有個諮詢委員會請問那個院長委員會的定義是什麼座談會是委員會嗎先跟委員報告因為故宮之前的話有一個指導委員會後來指導委員會取消了那現在故宮的話有策展委員會然後有青少年委員會"},{"start":391.828,"end":397.172,"text":"對 青少年做得不錯 兒童青少年做得不錯報告中有另外有警官委員會所以我們在討論這個事情的時候"},{"start":400.785,"end":426.522,"text":"人事主管單位他們就提出一個講法就是說其實在組總那邊的話就不希望我們裡面呈現太多所謂的委員會就是說太多的委員會的話就會變成說他的那個業務到底要怎麼處理所以原來的話我們也在想說等一下院長您先暫停不需要太多委員會這件事我沒意見可是要犧牲的是身障者的諮詢委員會嗎他不過是諮詢不是決策我知道"},{"start":431.346,"end":446.742,"text":"太多委員會是諮詢式會議會議出席費用你們付不起嗎另外的話就是說我們的那個服務品質專案會它都是一個專案會性質也沒有去成立委員會因為成立委員會就太多委員會了太多委員會的問題是什麼"},{"start":449.997,"end":469.534,"text":"因為委員會這樣的一個名詞會跟部會的名詞衝突所以基本上來講的話院長 委員會是你故宮下面的委員會你跟我講跟部會我知道 可是又不是NCC 又不是行政院組織法律的委員會是你故宮下面的委員會"},{"start":470.394,"end":485.903,"text":"可是在行政的硬做上面的話都是盡量不要再成立類似委員會那你為什麼不在去年3月的時候就告訴我這樣浪費我快一年的時間答應我然後最後再應付我們我們現在不是應付不是應付你們的報告就是應付啊這個在檢討因為那時候也是想說然後還有報告不給的時間到了也沒有給我們"},{"start":493.049,"end":504.156,"text":"你預算案答應今年1月31號然後最後我們拿到的是3月13號我們一直在去催然後給我們畢業的東西4月2號我們真的請了那院長你們是不是太不一致了你剛剛說不要委員會你看一下我們口頭去催你遲到的預算案答應的1月31號上面寫"},{"start":516.213,"end":528.858,"text":"本院無障礙討論之相關諮詢委員會名單那你幹嘛要寫諮詢委員會名單你這樣子不是跟你現在說了不要委員會是矛盾的嗎那你為什麼要應付我呢就是說它是一個諮詢會它就不是委員會諮詢會跟委員會有什麼不同"},{"start":537.982,"end":556.441,"text":"我說的是定期耶那你為什麼要在給我的上面寫諮詢委員會的名單委員名單上面就寫著諮詢委員會那是那是那你們這是你們應付立法委員的方法嗎一般的用法基本上來講的話就是有不夠精確的地方不夠精確的地方"},{"start":557.902,"end":562.884,"text":"我跟委員承諾要成立一個定期的諮詢委員會基本上來講的話我跟委員打包票一定會做到因為事實上我們已經在進行了到現在我催了一年才4月2號才有一次第一次的座談會"},{"start":584.614,"end":596.857,"text":"然後開起來很像是一個沒有什麼效率的座談會當然大家非常的知無不言給你們很多建議也沒有追蹤機制然後到現在下次會議就會追蹤了下次是什麼時候你預計多少開一次這種專案會議我們原則上的話就是提升服務品質的專案會議它每季的話都會召開"},{"start":610.919,"end":629.681,"text":"每季都會是身障者的主題嗎都會包括在裡面因為都會包括在裡面是有身障成員就是過半嗎你過半才是能夠所以你這個部分你光是那個服務品質每季開始我個人就認為太慢了啦"},{"start":630.402,"end":655.591,"text":"那照你這個標準三年邀一次一年邀一次這個進度如牛對 針對不同的事情的話都會召開臨時會議我們可以把歷次開那個扶貧值會議的那個給委員基本上來講的話我現在聚焦在生長者的權益每一個人都會老家裡如果有長者的話其實他事實上需要使用倫理行動不方便的話他其實也是多元平權裡面對長者的一個服務"},{"start":659.132,"end":670.739,"text":"所以這不是身障者而且身障者的人口數你們有沒有去研究過一下他到底佔人口的百分之多少那家裡的長輩一旦用了輪椅行動不方便之後是不是就是某一種身障者所以我是不能夠接受今天院長的答案啦那我的要求我是不了解為什麼不能有一個身心障礙學者專家的諮詢委員會我講的是諮詢喔你決策委員會不要太多可以理解嗎"},{"start":687.648,"end":715.715,"text":"諮詢委員會你能夠明確的決議有待改善追蹤機制我跟委員報告就是在這裡同仁都聽到了就是故宮一定會成立一個身心障礙的專案執行會議它這個會議的話是定期召開定期是多久定期多久的話那我們併著那個服務品質一季召開一次"},{"start":716.681,"end":736.835,"text":"你為什麼要併一個服務品質服務品質針對所有人你又跟他併在一起你為什麼不乾脆說這個專案會議一計一次然後是不是能夠院長主持一年至少主持一次然後再來也應該是副院長代理院長跟委員報告一年一計一次對我支持沒有問題"},{"start":738.657,"end":761.493,"text":"那既然是專案會議那你可不可以把這個會議的組成然後多久開一次然後追蹤機制人家給你意見不是說你們不做了還要找立委來幫忙問這個都能夠文字化從一個相關的辦法那在多久之內可以給本席呢一個月一個月內要文字化好不好相關辦法好謝謝院長加油"},{"start":768.766,"end":770.018,"text":"謝謝范雲委員精彩"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":394,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（10時38分）謝謝召委，有請院長。"],["主席：請院長備詢，謝謝。"],["范委員雲：院長早。你在今天的報告中有講到你們做的文化平權，我也看到有身障者參與的畫面，我想繼續追問這一題。在追問之前我要肯定一下，你們去年辦了多元性別博物館國際線上論壇，主題是「博物館中的LGBTQIA+的平等與可見性」，這是非常好的，跟當代很多議題結合，也跟博物館的國際趨勢能夠有更多的對話，本席肯定，希望未來能夠有更多相關的規劃，它也是一種文化的平權。","再來，針對今天關注的文化平權中的身障者，我要跟院長提醒這一題。你看到我去年3月27號就跟您質詢，去年10月24號再次質詢，然後在去年底的預算提案再次提出，不過很遺憾的是也要跟院長講，我不知道你們每次答應我的事情，好像跟後來我收到的報告都有某種程度的落差。我去年3月27號是質詢說，你們應該要有無障礙整體規劃機制、確保決策機制的身心障礙者代表過半，因為這個是國際公約，還有無障礙服務應該要定期檢討。院長您承諾三個月內提供規劃報告，結果你的報告洋洋灑灑，除了我問的英國的V＆A他們怎麼做之外，講了國際的例子，就把你們做過的，找了誰來演講，看來演講就是差不多三年會邀一個相關的人來演講，結果講了很多現在已經有的，當然那些是很好，可是我們要的不是一些單點的東西，我們的確是收到陳情案。你們之前因為那個斜坡入口邀很多身障者，可是他們感受到有關工程的過程，你們之後並沒有針對他們當天表達的意見給予回復，這個也沒有做到，所以才會收到陳情案。當時你承諾的是三個月內給我規劃報告，結果規劃報告裡面只有在結尾的時候講說，你們已經有一個提升服務品質的專案會議，會針對無障礙服務定期檢討，也會追蹤列管，可是如何定期也沒有告訴我們，這是3月27號的質詢。","過了半年我再次質詢，那次質詢更誇張，我問了兩題，你們只回復保護文物的安全，針對無障礙的部分完全沒回復，也因為這樣，我在去年底的預算提案再次要求你們要研議，我們要的是一個身心障礙平等參與機制，為什麼是機制？有機制之後就不需要我質詢了，它會自己運作。你們也答應了今年1月31日前提供書面報告，但我很遺憾，今年1月31日前又沒有回復，我辦公室去追之後，你們才回給我們1頁的東西，這裡面是說，因為本辦有口頭洽詢，所以給了我們一個相關諮詢委員會的名單，名單本身我看起來當然不錯，可是也沒有講機制，只是說你們這個名單是個諮詢委員會，好像有個委員會，並且預告4月2日會辦理提升服務品質專案會議。又回到原來那個專案會議，說你們會在專案會議中邀請你們的所謂身心障礙諮詢委員參與，然後實地勘查，議程刻正研擬中。","沒想到已經過了快一年，我們再次詢問的時候，連一個會議都還沒有開，開一個會要超過一年的規劃，然後我就請辦公室把4月2號之後開會的會議紀錄找來看，把會議紀錄找來看之後，我覺得這個好像不是個委員會吧！看起來你們也說是座談會，本來是副院長主持，看起來很好，可是黃副院長好像只有去開場，之後又交給下面的人主持。看了這個會議紀錄之後，我覺得大家都非常感謝你們，都是稱讚，但是也說了很多不足之處，怵目驚心，包含你們其中有一個地方有點字、給盲人的服務，但是那個是錯誤的，因為你們在工程驗收的時候沒有請身障團體來檢驗，所以那個是錯誤的，因為點字中間距離太大，這不是浪費公帑嗎？你做了一個點字的東西，然後我們的身障團體現場告訴你們說距離太大，所以無法辨識，然後請求你們未來在檢驗工程品質的時候請他們來。我覺得我們身障團體真的很委屈，對於做了一點點的事情就稱讚不已，對於遇到的問題，我們看起來是浪費公帑的東西，就是很委婉的要求，而且副院長本來應該要全程參與嘛。我們要一個委員會，像我們以前在臺北市的性平委員會，主委是市長，我參加過，市長只要沒有到，最後我們會檢視一季開一次，市長來幾次。副院長到了，開個場就走，下面的人都會看嘛，院長、副院長不關心，我幹嘛認真做這件事？所以我想請問院長，你這個委員會是個委員會嗎？你們給我的書面報告，針對我的預算提案說明你們有一個諮詢委員會。請問院長，委員會的定義是什麼？座談會是委員會嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：先跟委員報告，因為故宮之前有一個指導委員會，後來指導委員會取消了，現在故宮有策展委員會、青少年委員會，另外……"],["范委員雲：對，青少年做得不錯，兒童、青少年做得不錯，報告中有寫。"],["蕭院長宗煌：另外有景觀委員會，所以我們在討論這個事情的時候，人事主管單位他們就提出一個講法，其實在主總那邊就不希望我們裡面呈現太多所謂的委員會，就是說太多委員會的話，就會變成他的業務到底要怎麼處理，所以原來我們也在講說……"],["范委員雲：不需要？等一下，院長您先暫停，不需要太多委員會這件事我沒意見，可是要犧牲的是身障者的諮詢委員會嗎？這不過是諮詢，不是決策欸！"],["蕭院長宗煌：我知道，諮詢會也是一個委員會。"],["范委員雲：太多委員會，是諮詢……是會議出席費用你們出不起嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：另外，我們的服務品質專案會議都是一個專案會議性質，也沒有去成立委員會，因為成立委員會就太多委員會了。"],["范委員雲：太多委員會的問題是什麼？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為委員會這樣的一個名詞，會跟部會的那個名詞衝突，所以基本上來講……"],["范委員雲：院長，委員會是你故宮下面的委員會，你跟我講跟部會……"],["蕭院長宗煌：我知道、我知道，可是……"],["范委員雲：又不是NCC，它又不是行政院組織法裡面的委員會，是你故宮下面的委員會。"],["蕭院長宗煌：我知道，可是在行政的運作上面，都是儘量不要再成立類似委員會，因為行政院也成立很多委員會。"],["范委員雲：那你為什麼不在去年3月的時候就這樣告訴我？浪費我快一年的時間，答應我了，然後最後再應付我們。"],["蕭院長宗煌：不是，我們現在不是應付，就是說……"],["范委員雲：不是應付？你們的報告就是應付啊！"],["蕭院長宗煌：這個再檢討，因為那時候也是想說……"],["范委員雲：然後還有報告不給的，時間到了也沒有給我們，預算提案的部分你是答應今年1月31號前，最後我們拿到的是，3月13號我們一直去催，然後給我們1頁的東西。"],["蕭院長宗煌：4月2號我們真的辦理……"],["范委員雲：等一下，院長，你們是不是太不一致了？你剛剛說不要委員會，你看一下我們口頭去催的，你遲到的、針對預算提案答應1月31號前提供的，上面寫的是，本院無障礙討論之相關諮詢委員會名單，那你幹嘛要寫諮詢委員會名單？"],["蕭院長宗煌：所以這個就會出現……"],["范委員雲：你這樣子不是跟你現在說不要委員會是矛盾的嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，就會出現那樣的矛盾，所以現在就是……"],["范委員雲：那你為什麼要應付我呢？"],["蕭院長宗煌：報告委員，不是應付，就是說它是一個諮詢會，它就不是委員會。"],["范委員雲：諮詢會跟委員會有什麼不同？我說的是定期，那你為什麼要在給我的回復上面寫諮詢委員會的委員名單？上面就寫著諮詢委員會！"],["蕭院長宗煌：那是……"],["范委員雲：這是你們應付立法委員的方法嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：不是、不是，一般的用法，基本上來講，就是有不夠精確的地方……"],["范委員雲：不夠精確的地方？院長，我請你……"],["蕭院長宗煌：我跟委員承諾，就是說OK、好，要成立一個定期的身心障礙的諮詢會……"],["范委員雲：是諮詢，不是決策，是諮詢委員會。"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上來講，我跟委員打包票，一定會做到，因為事實上我們已經在進行了，而且名單……"],["范委員雲：沒有，到現在我催了一年，4月2號才有第一次的座談會，然後開起來很像是一個沒有什麼效率的座談會，當然大家非常的知無不言，給你們很多建議，也沒有追蹤機制，然後到現在……"],["蕭院長宗煌：下次會議就會追蹤了。"],["范委員雲：下次是什麼時候？你預計多久開一次這種專案會議？"],["蕭院長宗煌：原則上，提升服務品質的專案會議每季都會召開。"],["范委員雲：每季都會是身障者的主題嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：都會包括在裡面，因為……"],["范委員雲：都會包括在裡面是有身障成員過半嗎？你過半才是能夠……所以你這個部分光是那個服務品質每季開一次，我個人就認為太慢了，照你這個標準，三年邀一次、一年邀一次，這個進度牛步……"],["蕭院長宗煌：針對不同的事情都會召開臨時會議，我們可以把歷次開服務品質會議的狀況提供給委員，基本上來講……"],["范委員雲：我現在是聚焦在身障者的權益！每一個人都會老，家裡如果有長者的話，他事實上需要使用輪椅、行動不方便的話，這其實也是多元平權裡面對長者的一個服務，所以這不是身障者，而且身障者的人口數你們有沒有去研究過？到底占人口的百分之多少？家裡的長輩一旦用了輪椅、行動不方便之後，是不是就是某一種身障者？所以我是不能夠接受今天院長的答案，而我的要求，我是不了解為什麼不能有一個身心障礙學者專家的諮詢委員會，我講的是諮詢，決策委員會不要太多是可以理解的，而諮詢委員會，你能夠明確的決議，有待改善、追蹤機制……"],["蕭院長宗煌：我跟委員報告，在這裡同仁都聽到了，就是故宮一定會成立一個身心障礙的專案諮詢會議，這個會議是定期召開。"],["范委員雲：定期是多久？"],["蕭院長宗煌：定期是多久，那我們併著服務品質一季召開一次。"],["范委員雲：你為什麼要併服務品質？服務品質是針對所有人，你要跟它併在一起！你為什麼不乾脆說這個專案會議一季一次？然後是不是能夠院長主持、一年至少主持一次？再來也應該是副院長代理院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，跟委員報告，一年、一季一次都我主持沒有問題。"],["范委員雲：好，既然是專案會議，那你可不可以把這個會議的組成、多久開一次，以及追蹤機制，人家給你意見，不是說你們不做，然後還要找立委來幫忙問，這個都能夠文字化，有一個相關的辦法，那在多久之內可以給本席？"],["蕭院長宗煌：一個月。"],["范委員雲：一個月內嘛！"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["范委員雲：要文字化，好不好？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["范委員雲：相關辦法。"],["蕭院長宗煌：好。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝院長，加油。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員精彩絕倫的質詢，也謝謝院長的承諾，希望這個部分大家一起努力。","接下來我們有請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-9","speakers":["葛如鈞","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","林宜瑾","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","范雲","郭昱晴","陳冠廷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林沛祥","張雅琳"],"page_start":315,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00007"}}},{"id":"160776","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160776","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369d057a2f97842477c385a4fd0f0fffa49c2100e055cb594031a088aa3d2b9e73c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"10:32:34 - 10:43:15","影片長度":"00:10:41","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T10:32:34+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:43:15+08:00","duration":641,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.68846875,"end":9.970343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.53096875,"end":15.640343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.37034375,"end":15.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.640343750000003,"end":17.867843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.94409375,"end":16.028468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.19721875,"end":16.872218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.09909375,"end":24.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.55034375,"end":30.473468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.794093750000002,"end":70.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.65471875,"end":58.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.85721875,"end":58.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.52659375,"end":68.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.57721875,"end":68.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.04096875,"end":74.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.32721875,"end":76.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.82909375,"end":78.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.34346875,"end":94.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.24409375,"end":102.17534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.30284375000001,"end":97.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.80409375,"end":104.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.10721875,"end":106.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.81596875000001,"end":108.52034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.53721875000001,"end":108.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.62159375,"end":109.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.14471875000001,"end":110.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.35971875000001,"end":115.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.05159375000001,"end":112.90784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.06784375000001,"end":115.84409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.69221875000001,"end":118.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.42596875000001,"end":120.29909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.29909375000001,"end":147.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.54784375000001,"end":121.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.57909375,"end":138.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.03471875,"end":138.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.45659375,"end":138.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.64096875,"end":150.40409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.41284375,"end":160.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.97721875000002,"end":155.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.57534375,"end":163.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.10221875000002,"end":173.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.52284375000002,"end":197.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.55221875,"end":174.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.56909375,"end":175.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.24409375000002,"end":175.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.44721875000002,"end":198.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.08846875,"end":199.59471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.88159375,"end":208.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.29784375000003,"end":215.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.30096875,"end":231.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.27471875,"end":222.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.10034375,"end":237.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.23096875000002,"end":232.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.12534375,"end":233.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.55096875,"end":236.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.56784375,"end":238.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.01909375000002,"end":280.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.93659375000004,"end":279.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.98721875,"end":280.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.05471875,"end":280.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.45534375,"end":310.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.45909375,"end":321.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.73596875000004,"end":322.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.37284375,"end":328.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.46909375,"end":335.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.62409375000004,"end":339.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.42096875000004,"end":348.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.76971875000004,"end":350.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.87909375000004,"end":351.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.08159375,"end":401.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.25034375,"end":351.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.73784375,"end":363.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.74471875,"end":373.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.89659375,"end":373.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.96409375,"end":374.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.32471875000005,"end":388.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.95971875000004,"end":403.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.22534375000004,"end":404.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.73159375,"end":404.67659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.67659375000005,"end":431.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.89534375000005,"end":409.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.42846875000004,"end":429.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.02721875000003,"end":429.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.65971875,"end":437.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.12784375,"end":433.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.14471875000004,"end":433.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.10596875000005,"end":467.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.39659375,"end":469.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.05034375,"end":496.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.81409375000004,"end":516.7434687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.94596875,"end":517.7222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.44784375,"end":522.1772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.2278437500001,"end":522.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.4809687500001,"end":533.9897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.47909375,"end":593.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":545.8528437500001,"end":545.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.07221875,"end":546.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.34221875,"end":546.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.76409375,"end":573.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.9665937500001,"end":574.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.00846875,"end":576.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.71284375,"end":578.0672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":592.1072187500001,"end":596.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.5203437499999,"end":613.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.53846875,"end":614.3147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.0109687500001,"end":629.7722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.7890937500001,"end":629.8059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":629.83971875,"end":630.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":630.6328437500001,"end":630.9028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.9028437500001,"end":630.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":630.97034375,"end":634.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.88534375,"end":642.4453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":637.02846875,"end":637.6359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.6059687500001,"end":641.0615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":641.6184687500001,"end":642.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.3272187499999,"end":642.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.64784375,"end":643.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":643.52534375,"end":643.5928437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.5928437499999,"end":643.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":643.62659375,"end":643.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.66034375,"end":643.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":643.9640937500001,"end":644.0990937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.825,"end":9.647,"text":"謝謝郭城 趙偉 我們請陳部長以及民航局何局長趙偉 部長要跟你行禮來 部長還有何局長"},{"start":23.457,"end":29.383,"text":"部長好今天我還是要就較於有關台中機場跟高鐵的問題我先就台中機場的問題再來確認一下因為可能局長之前有口頭報告過我們也側面得知台中機場要增加新的航線"},{"start":44.838,"end":70.134,"text":"那我雖然也開過協調會有聽到局長口頭上的說法那也看到有部分媒體的說法但是呢我還是要再確認一下因為部長這很重要我們現在這個虎航到底要開的這個新的航線不管是韓國的濟州島或者是日本的名古屋那到目前為止"},{"start":71.115,"end":77.833,"text":"我們上網去看虎航還沒有正式公佈也還沒有公告那也還沒有開賣"},{"start":79.426,"end":103.784,"text":"所以呢我因為過去曾經有過不太好的紀錄就是公告了之後但是還是沒飛那所以我還是要再確認一下我為中部的鄉親要爭取這個新的航線到底有沒有確定部長報告委員這個新的航線有確定現在虎航已經提出班表那目前民航局只要一審核過了他們就可以開始開賣民航局什麼時候會審核過應該是很快吧"},{"start":109.246,"end":120.093,"text":"一個禮拜之內會審核通過應該一個禮拜之內就會審核通過所以這兩條新增的航線是確定的這個是確定的那是包機還是定期航班報告委員這個是定期航班是定期航班那我希望拜託民航局這邊再督促第一個我們非常高興樂觀騎乘有新的航線增加直飛韓國濟州島跟日本的名古屋而且不是包機是定期航班"},{"start":137.524,"end":160.263,"text":"所以一個禮拜之內拜託民航局儘速來審定這個班表趕快請虎航公布好不好 公告好不好好 這個我們一個禮拜之內趕快一個禮拜之內 那我不希望有任何其他的一個突發狀況這是第一個 第二個 既然我們新增航線那我一直在講究的 講求的就是台中機場的設施設備跟服務"},{"start":165.271,"end":190.473,"text":"董事長請回那部長你也跟我去考察過這個台中機場我想你應該走了好幾次了而且上次你也有承諾包括跟民航局何局長也都承諾對於這個台中航站的這個未來的擴充的一個計畫不用等到2040那我們要做調整希望能夠在這個競速的一個"},{"start":191.353,"end":213.762,"text":"階段性可以有擴增的一個計畫那局長也告訴我正在調整對不對局長向委員報告有關這個就是有關台中機場的擴充的部分如果是屬於未來的第三航廈的部分那我們在整體規劃裡面會去做這樣的一個處理去規劃以往規劃是在既有的航廈這個戰區範圍"},{"start":216.363,"end":230.279,"text":"那我們認為這個台中機場的運量跟相關的接駁的設施應該在做重新的思考所以後來我們就建議就是說我們會跟顧問公司來討論如何在楊溪區的部分部分空間來做相關的處理"},{"start":231.32,"end":255.278,"text":"部長那請你也要全力支持也要全力督促他們及早把這個規劃趕快的來做報告因為上次你有親自承諾過那我們希望的台中機場要擴大服務除了第三航道之外那部分的這個站體的這個相關的服務設施跟動線我們都希望藉由擴充可以來做最大的改善"},{"start":255.778,"end":280.285,"text":"第二個那如果在現在的這個擴大航站的規劃還沒出來之前就既有現有的航站的這本體如何的去提升跟改善它的動線我覺得這也是很重要我之前去考察謝謝次長跟這個局長陪同也做了部分我知道包括這個e-gate這樣子的一個這個數位通關有增加那"},{"start":281.545,"end":307.446,"text":"行李的這個動線也稍作調整但是我還必須提醒局長我們還是在目前看起來我們中部鄉親使用台中機場還是有一些怨言包括行李的一個動線還是需要再改進那包括的這個檢疫的這個X光機造成的這個湧射那延誤了大家取行李的時間那延誤了這個可以離開的時間這個我相信"},{"start":311.533,"end":322.185,"text":"我們在既有的這個設施設備這樣子的一個場域裡面是不是請局長再要求再檢討再規劃的改善的更好可以嗎 局長"},{"start":323.325,"end":348.227,"text":"跟委員報告確實陳萌委員的之前的質詢跟提醒那雖然我們今年台中站1月有開過會那主要針對的就是有關朱如溫的部分的檢疫的一個動線所以造成那個空間確實也比較擁擠最近我們也台中站也會再來跟這個航空站的部分相關的單位防檢疫啦這個單位來討論看看如何做相關的再如何精進好謝謝"},{"start":349.628,"end":363.119,"text":"那我也請部長再關注一件事我首先先謝謝因為部長主導而且承諾也已經完成了這個所謂的機場的這個聯外交通的那個information那個旅客中心"},{"start":364.56,"end":383.652,"text":"能夠部分的解決國際旅客來到台中機場往市區往台中其他區域的一些接駁問題但是那還是局部我在今天的提案裡面有提到我們希望交通部趕快跟台中市政府再一次的來好好的討論溝通我們機場連外的大眾運輸系統"},{"start":389.355,"end":402.772,"text":"捷運局限還沒有成行之前那公車或者是shuttle bus可能是我們現在可以做的那是不是可以在等一下的提案裡面我相信部長一定會全力支持局長也會支持吧是 這個會支持希望做好"},{"start":405.015,"end":430.897,"text":"那希望我們趕快來盤點趕快做好也要求地方政府一起來合作那航空站如果可以大幅的改善我相信這個服務台中的鄉親中部的鄉親會更多那接著除了機場之外台中最重要的一個運輸交通的一個樞紐就是高鐵那我想部長也看過好幾次你每天幾乎每個禮拜要搭高鐵嘛對不對所以你也最了解周遭的這個"},{"start":431.878,"end":458.586,"text":"交通的問題 何局長請回沒關係謝謝你那我就請部長真的是我們好好的來想辦法跟地方合作來解決我在去年10月14號有提案成立這個台中高鐵周邊的交通專案小組那也成立了我謝謝我們楊局長跟台中市政府密切的做溝通那但是我現在要提醒的是什麼"},{"start":459.306,"end":485.097,"text":"我們雖然專案小組到目前為止去年10月成立到現在開會了三次那也提出了一些對周邊交通的建議但是呢我幫你再整理了一下我要再仔細的看了一下當然我們該補助給地方政府的我也全力支持跟同意但是呢以目前提出的這個改善規劃的建議裡面我們發現大部分都是"},{"start":485.717,"end":504.495,"text":"局限在導入的車流的一個疏解的一個規劃而在整體的一個導出的這個車流的規劃目前還沒有看到局長你的專業你應該知道我在講什麼整個高鐵的特區裡面這個周遭的交通目前"},{"start":505.256,"end":533.185,"text":"我們看到這個專案小組提到了不管是國道銜接高鐵特區或是74號線的閘道的拓寬或者是其他都是在作為車流要進入高鐵的一個交通的改善那但是如果就整體未來那個所謂的亞洲最大的shopping mall要在明年年底要完成如果我們要因應的話"},{"start":534.565,"end":562.432,"text":"我想周遭的整個交通如何的在短時間內可以導出分散車流這個是最重要的這也一定要思考進去的所以我希望未來在這個專案小組在一次的討論的時候我請交通部能夠基於我們的專業還有能夠跟地方政府提醒有些對於平面的連外道路的一個全盤的思考"},{"start":564.432,"end":594.052,"text":"跟解方也要能夠尋求如何解決那才能夠一次到位啦這個我想楊局長應該也討論過很多次了部長自己本身是台中人也曾經是在地的民意代表你更清楚我在說什麼第一個除了我們高速公路快速道路的解方之外平面道路裡面只要涉及到我們鐵道局或是高鐵的土地我們一定沒有問題嘛一定願意提供嘛中央這邊一定全力配合"},{"start":594.632,"end":612.975,"text":"一定全力配合嘛 對不對是 那所以我們希望未來台中市政府在專案小組裡面如果能夠更積極的提供這個相關的這個不管是平面道路的一個打通計畫或拓寬計畫當然我也希望未來交通部也要支持"},{"start":614.116,"end":634.51,"text":"也會支持吧 對不對所以不管是在公路系統還有快速道路的這個高速公路的這個系統或者是平面道路的打通跟拓寬未來需要中央的預算來支持所以也請部長一定要承諾支持如果是可以做的狀況底下交通部一定會全力支持"},{"start":635.126,"end":640.27,"text":"當然當然是要經過評估一定可以做的當然就要支持好不好好再拜託部長這個很重要好不好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":449,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（10時32分）謝謝國成召委。我們請陳部長以及民航局何局長。"],["主席：部長，還有何局長。"],["何委員欣純：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：今天我還是要就教有關臺中機場跟高鐵的問題，我先就臺中機場的問題再來確認一下，可能局長之前有口頭報告過，我們也側面得知臺中機場要增加新的航線，我雖然也開過協調會，有聽到局長口頭上的說法，也看到有部分媒體的說法，但是我還是要再確認一下，部長，這很重要……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["何委員欣純：現在虎航要開的新航線，不管是韓國的濟州島，或者是日本的名古屋，到目前為止我們上網去看，虎航還沒有正式公布，也還沒有公告，也還沒有開賣，但是因為過去曾經有過不太好的紀錄，就是公告了之後，但是還是沒飛，所以我還是要再確認一下，我為中部的鄉親要爭取，這個新的航線到底有沒有確定？部長。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個新的航線有確定。"],["何委員欣純：有確定？"],["陳部長世凱：現在虎航已經提出班表，目前民航局只要一審核過了，他們就可以開始開賣。"],["何委員欣純：民航局什麼時候會審核過？"],["何局長淑萍：應該儘快。"],["陳部長世凱：應該是很快吧！一個禮拜之內會審核過。"],["何委員欣純：應該一個禮拜之內就會審核通過，所以這兩條新增的航線是確定的？"],["陳部長世凱：這個是確定的。"],["何委員欣純：那是包機，還是定期航班？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個是定期航班。"],["何委員欣純：是定期航班，拜託民航局這邊再督促，第一個，我們非常高興，樂觀其成，有新的航線增加，直飛韓國濟州島跟日本的名古屋，而且不是包機，是定期航班。"],["陳部長世凱：是定期航班。"],["何委員欣純：所以一個禮拜之內拜託民航局儘速的審定班表，趕快請虎航公告，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["何委員欣純：趕快開賣。"],["陳部長世凱：我們一個禮拜之內趕快核定。"],["何委員欣純：一個禮拜之內！我不希望有任何其他突發狀況，這是第一個。第二個，既然有新增航線，那我一直在講求的就是臺中機場的設施、設備跟服務。部長，你也跟我去考察過臺中機場，我想你應該走了好幾次了。"],["陳部長世凱：對，很熟。"],["何委員欣純：而且上次你也有承諾，包括民航局何局長也都承諾，對於臺中航站未來的擴充計畫，不用等到2040，我們要做調整，希望能夠儘速階段性可以有擴增的計畫，局長也告訴我正在調整，對不對？局長。"],["何局長淑萍：向委員報告，有關臺中機場擴充的部分，如果是屬於未來第三航廈的部分，我們在整體規劃裡面會做這樣一個處理、規劃，因為以往規劃是在既有的航廈、站區範圍，我們認為臺中機場的運量跟相關接駁設施應該再重新思考。"],["何委員欣純：對。"],["何局長淑萍：所以後來我們就建議，我們會跟顧問公司討論，如何在陽西區的部分空間做相關處理。"],["何委員欣純：部長，請你要全力支持。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["何委員欣純：也要全力督促他們及早把這個規劃趕快來報告。"],["陳部長世凱：會，這個我們要加速。"],["何委員欣純：因為上次你有親自承諾過，我們希望臺中機場要擴大服務，除了第三航廈之外，部分站體相關的服務設施跟動線，我們都希望藉由擴充可以做最大的改善。第二個，如果在擴大航站的規劃還沒出來之前，就既有、現有的航站本體如何去提升跟改善它的動線？我覺得這也是很重要。我之前去考察，謝謝次長跟局長陪同，也做了部分，我知道包括e－Gate數位通關有增加，行李的動線也稍作調整，但是我還是必須提醒局長，目前看起來，我們中部鄉親使用臺中機場還是有一些怨言，包括行李的動線還是需要再改進，以及檢疫的X光機造成壅塞，延誤大家取行李的時間、延誤了可以離開的時間，我相信在既有設施、設備的場域裡面，是不是請局長再要求、再檢討、再規劃、改善得更好？可以嗎？局長。"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，確實！承蒙委員之前的質詢跟提醒，雖然今年臺中站1月有開過會，主要針對的就是有關豬瘟檢疫的動線，所以造成那個空間確實有比較擁擠，最近臺中站也會跟航空站、相關防檢疫單位再討論，看看如何再精進。"],["何委員欣純：好，謝謝。我也請部長再關注一件事，首先先謝謝，因為部長主導，而且承諾，也已經完成了機場聯外交通information旅客中心，能夠部分解決國際旅客來到臺中機場往市區、往臺中其他區域的一些接駁問題，但是還只是局部，我在今天的提案裡面有提到，我們希望交通部趕快跟臺中市政府再一次好好討論溝通機場聯外的大眾運輸系統，在捷運橘線還沒有成型之前，公車或者是shuttle bus可能是我們現在可以做的，在等一下的提案裡面，我相信部長一定會全力支持，局長也會支持吧？"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個會支持，也希望做好。"],["何委員欣純：好，希望趕快盤點、趕快做好，也要求地方政府一起來合作。航空站如果可以大幅改善，我相信服務臺中的鄉親、中部的鄉親會更多。接著，除了機場之外，臺中最重要的一個交通樞紐就是高鐵，我想部長也看過好幾次，你幾乎每個禮拜要搭高鐵對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對，每天都在那邊經過。"],["何委員欣純：所以你也最了解周遭的交通問題，何局長請回，沒關係，謝謝你。我就請部長，真的我們好好地想辦法跟地方合作來解決。我在去年10月14號有提案成立臺中高鐵周邊交通專案小組，我謝謝楊局長跟臺中市政府密切地做溝通，但是我現在要提醒的是什麼？雖然去年10月成立專案小組，到目前為止開會3次，也提了一些對周邊交通的建議，但是我幫你整理後再仔細地看了一下，當然我們該補助給地方政府的，我也全力支持跟同意，但是以目前所提出的改善規劃建議裡面，我們發現大部分都是侷限在導入車流的紓解規劃，而在整體導出車流的規劃，目前還是沒有看到。局長，你的專業應該知道我在講什麼，整個高鐵特區周遭的交通，目前我們看到專案小組提到的，不管是國道銜接高鐵特區、台74線匝道拓寬，或其他部分都是在作為車流要進入高鐵交通的改善，但是如果就整體來說，未來所謂的亞洲最大shopping mall要在明年年底完成，如果我們要因應的話，我想周遭的整個交通，如何地在短時間內可以導出分散車流，這是最重要的、這也一定要思考進去。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["何委員欣純：所以我希望未來專案小組再一次討論的時候，我請交通部能夠基於專業跟地方政府提醒，對於平面聯外道路的問題要全盤思考跟尋求如何解決的解方，那樣才能夠一次到位。我想楊局長應該也討論過很多次了，部長本身是臺中人，也曾經是在地民意代表，你更清楚我在說什麼，第一個，除了高速公路、快速道路的解方之外，平面道路只要涉及到鐵道局或高鐵的土地，我們一定沒有問題、一定願意提供。"],["陳部長世凱：對！中央一定全力配合。"],["何委員欣純：一定全力配合，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：地方有需要的話，我們一定全力配合。"],["何委員欣純：是，所以我們希望未來臺中市政府在專案小組裡面，如果能夠更積極地提供相關平面道路的打通計畫或拓寬計畫，當然我也希望未來交通部也要支持。"],["陳部長世凱：會支持。"],["何委員欣純：也會支持吧！所以不管是在高速公路系統還有快速道路的系統，或者是平面道路的打通跟拓寬，未來也需要中央的預算來支持，所以也請部長一定要承諾支持。"],["陳部長世凱：好，如果是可以做的狀況下，交通部一定會全力支持。"],["何委員欣純：當然是要經過評估，一定可以做的當然就要支持，好不好？再拜託部長，這個很重要。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["何委員欣純：謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員。","現在我們處理臨時提案，請議事人員一併宣讀。","一、","案由：本院廖委員先翔，鑒於臺鐵所屬車站停車場多委託民間業者經營，然實務上屢傳停車費用費率過高的爭議，影響民眾通勤意願。為確保臺鐵公共服務宗旨，並維護民眾權益，交通部及鐵道局應督導國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司，於「停車場租賃契約」中明文訂定停車收費上限與合理調整公式，並應定期檢討費率合理性，確保公共設施使用不背離公益目的。爰要求交通部及鐵道局督導國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司與委外業者簽訂「停車場租賃契約」時，應明定費率上限及調整機制。","說明：","一、臺中車站自112年起將車站附設停車場委外經營後，月租費大幅調整。高雄新左營車站委外業者於113年調整臨時停車收費，收費遠高於周邊其他公有停車場。樹林火車站後站停車場為臺鐵土地，委外經營後機車停車費年年調漲，收費比前站各停車場來還高，引發民眾不滿。臺鐵汐止火車站一樓的停車場，停車費月繳金額，從原本的3,000元調漲為3,500元，季繳更是從原本的8,400元漲到9,900元，等於一個月多500元。","二、臺鐵車站停車場設施雖由民間經營，然其土地、建物屬於公共資產，應有合理控管機制。若任由業者自由訂價，恐導致公共財產商業化、民眾被迫承擔高額費用，不符國營事業之公益性精神。此類爭議不僅損害民眾權益，亦影響臺鐵整體服務形象與使用率，應透過合約條文之明確規範，賦予政府適度管控空間，並建立價格合理、透明之使用制度。","提案人：廖先翔","連署人：林國成　　陳雪生　　黃健豪　　邱若華　　游　顥　　魯明哲","二、","案由：位於臺中成功到清水路線的全臺第一條海線鐵路於1920年正式通車，其後隨著其他鐵路陸續完工，並於二年後達成海線鐵路全線行駛，然而迄今仍有日南至大甲及清水至追分等路段尚未完成雙軌，造成海線列車排點缺乏彈性，列車運轉亦受交會待避作業影響，導致班次數較少，長久下來造成海線地區交通不便。","鑒於行政院已於去（113）年1月29日核定現台鐵海線雙軌化計畫可行性研，且鐵道局目前辦理綜合規劃招標作業中，惟臺中海線居民每日通勤需求相當迫切，爰此要求交通部於台鐵海線雙軌化建設完工之前，針對臺中大甲至彰化之海線路段，增加台鐵班次增加班次，以因應臺中海線區民之交通需求。","提案人：蔡其昌　　李昆澤　　何欣純","三、","案由：為因應台中烏日高鐵站周邊交通衝擊，去年10月本委員會通過本席提案，要求交通部與台中市政府共同組成「台中高鐵周邊交通專案小組」，研議高鐵台中站周邊交通問題，經查專案小組已召開3次會議，初步討論「國道1號、台74線增設匝道研析」、「台中高鐵區周邊道路分隔島打除及瓶頸打通改善」、「聯外道路之規劃」等規劃方向，但前項現有之討論，多以車流進入台中烏日高鐵站周邊之規劃為主，未見有規劃離開該區之車流疏解方案，故請交通部儘速與台中市政府溝通納入，期能階段性解決台中烏日高鐵站周邊交通問題。","提案人：何欣純　　蔡其昌　　陳素月","四、","案由：台中機場航線漸增，搭乘旅客日漸增加，相對服務設施需求亦漸增加，爰建請民航局應就旅客通關增設新一代入出國自動查驗通關系統e-Gate、入關後候機空間改善、機場貴賓室之規劃設置、豐富候機室餐飲選擇之多元性、旅客行李之卸掛速度及防檢檢查出關速度等機場設施、提升服務品質，儘速與內政部移民署、農業部防檢署等相關單位協調，提升台中機場軟、硬體服務、改善動線規劃。","提案人：何欣純　　蔡其昌　　陳素月"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160775","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160775","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369eb45f8416fcf95f9385a4fd0f0fffa49c2100e055cb594036283ac1051a9c2f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"09:49:43 - 09:59:32","影片長度":"00:09:49","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T09:49:43+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T09:59:32+08:00","duration":589,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.18659375,"end":5.363468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.90346875,"end":14.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.9372187499999995,"end":5.970968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.970968750000001,"end":9.109718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.68721875,"end":13.547843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.117218750000003,"end":15.589718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.079093750000002,"end":17.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.09909375,"end":50.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.56159375,"end":33.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.51471875,"end":36.548468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.70034375,"end":36.767843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.767843750000004,"end":36.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.297218750000006,"end":70.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.97346875000001,"end":84.64221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.21596875,"end":89.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.63721875,"end":93.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.56909375000001,"end":94.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.80096875000001,"end":112.06409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.38471875,"end":118.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.16846875,"end":122.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.20596875000001,"end":122.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.49284375,"end":127.87596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.99409375000002,"end":171.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.51034375,"end":180.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.38659375,"end":185.72346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.24659375000002,"end":188.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.91284375,"end":197.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.45159375,"end":208.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.55534375000002,"end":209.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.69846875000002,"end":214.39409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.93409375000002,"end":217.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.30909375000002,"end":223.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.29971875,"end":226.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.50596875000002,"end":227.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.73784375000002,"end":230.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.44221875000002,"end":231.35346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.82596875000002,"end":232.95659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.88471875000002,"end":236.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.23034375,"end":237.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.18784375,"end":240.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.63471875000002,"end":241.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.82846875,"end":251.04659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.04659375000003,"end":258.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.01159375000003,"end":259.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.00721875,"end":298.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.68034375,"end":300.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.33846875,"end":302.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.49409375000005,"end":306.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":306.71721875000003,"end":327.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.68034375,"end":334.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":327.62534375,"end":327.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.06784375,"end":332.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":333.05909375000005,"end":333.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.94909375000003,"end":337.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":337.21034375000005,"end":337.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.49721875,"end":345.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.03221875,"end":350.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.28846875000005,"end":353.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.05159375,"end":357.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.51096875,"end":364.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.21034375000005,"end":365.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.20596875,"end":369.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.82971875000004,"end":377.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.22096875,"end":387.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.54096875000005,"end":382.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.44284375,"end":398.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.33159375,"end":413.50221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.72159375,"end":441.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.13909375000003,"end":442.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.15159375,"end":449.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.91909375,"end":446.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.15471875000003,"end":471.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.62534375,"end":463.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.37159375000005,"end":466.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.21096875,"end":468.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.08409375,"end":476.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.20971875000004,"end":478.85909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.90971875,"end":488.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.49471875,"end":489.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.47346875000005,"end":496.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.76346875,"end":500.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.18909375000004,"end":512.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.2334687499999,"end":518.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.1228437500001,"end":546.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.44784375,"end":560.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.05721875,"end":562.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.9640937500001,"end":588.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.79096875,"end":564.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.05659375,"end":565.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":572.5659687500001,"end":573.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":576.58221875,"end":577.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":577.94909375,"end":578.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":587.5847187500001,"end":589.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.08659375,"end":589.4409687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.588,"end":14.274,"text":"好 謝謝召委 請一下部長 交通部陳部長 台鐵五代董事長 高鐵政董事長 高鐵政大局 楊振軍局長楊振軍局長"},{"start":23.314,"end":50.31,"text":"好部長好有關於近期社會大眾對於台鐵月台門的設置他的設置雖然是事半但是他的經費高達一億五千萬那社會大眾對於這樣的一個月台門設置及所需的經費大家議論紛紛其實有兩種主要的聲音第一種是要不要做月台門有必要嗎"},{"start":51.391,"end":66.309,"text":"第二種是說有必要做但是有必要要花這麼多錢嗎 為什麼要花這麼多錢那其實有關於月台門設置的這樣的一個討論最主要是在我記得是在2022年11月28日"},{"start":71.115,"end":92.469,"text":"台鐵台北站有一位行動不方便的旅客啊他因為啊 坐輪椅操作的問題啊 或者是人潮擁擠啊不慎摔落軌道 因而受傷啊 社會上大家都很不敢的啦所以就討論到說是不是有越台門設置的議題 所以在"},{"start":94.009,"end":118.372,"text":"11月30號就是過了兩天之後我們在交通委員會我就質詢相關月台門的這樣的一個議題是不是說我們要來解釋相關月台狹窄的這個問題或者是要討論是否要設置月台門以及要設置月台門有哪些的優先的順序或者是相關的時程"},{"start":119.215,"end":137.527,"text":"那其實我要跟部長提醒一下其實不只是2022年討論到要設置月台門與否在2017年其實台鐵在社會大眾因為每年都發生很多的這種衰落鐵軌的這樣一個事件"},{"start":138.388,"end":157.041,"text":"所以說社會大眾就有在討論要不要設月台門那當時我記得是要設置在百福站百福站就是在七堵區他有一個百福站是否要設置這樣的一個月台門但是當時因為車種複雜他的車寬車距車門的車寬車距不一樣以及月台的這個寬距也不一樣還有相關技術的問題系統整合的問題所以就這個計畫就延宕下來"},{"start":168.448,"end":187.853,"text":"那現在設置這樣的一個越台南門的議題最主要是屢屢都發生很多的這樣那個跌落 落軌的事件不管是台鐵或是高鐵 高鐵最近就發生了三件這樣一個落軌的事件其實不只是最近的這些件數"},{"start":189.033,"end":208.8,"text":"最主要的我看這個雙鐵台鐵高鐵每年平均的落軌事件都在10件以上我們看到台鐵的2022到2024以及高鐵的2022到2024的落軌事件都超過10件以上其實高鐵更多因為計算"},{"start":210.811,"end":232.8,"text":"申報上來的這個建樹計算的基礎不一樣台鐵是有跌落軌道有受傷與否或者是啊造成車輛的延誤有沒有但是只要跌落軌道他們就通報就作為計算基礎高鐵沒有啊高鐵只有啊"},{"start":233.939,"end":259.109,"text":"造成列車的延誤啊才會列入這個計算是不是這樣來高鐵鄭董事長講一下委員說的是的我們有報告給鐵道局的是有列車延誤五分鐘以上的這事件我們才會通報所以跌落受傷了就沒有計算為什麼我知道呢因為我處理過一個服務案件民眾在桃園站他"},{"start":260.771,"end":285.836,"text":"下電梯手扶梯要去搭高鐵他不慎跌落軌道受傷雖然高鐵有做後續的處理但是就沒有列入這樣一個跌落軌道的一個計算所以我要說的就是說我們必須要更嚴謹的態度來處理落軌的這種狀況申報要確實而且落軌的事件是非常的多落軌的事件有看到行動不方便的朋友"},{"start":286.536,"end":302.436,"text":"或者是長者 或者是兒童 或者是身體不舒服的旅客或者是因為旅客因為擁擠 推擠或者是個人生命選擇的這樣的一個狀況所以啊這個都必須去做相關的 所以說"},{"start":303.53,"end":332.421,"text":"部長你認為這種月台門的設置是有必要性嗎報告委員必要性我們要看第一剛剛委員有提到是擁擠的部分那第二個就是說針對安全的部分弱軌的次數比較多的那些車站代表說它擁擠的程度可能是相對高我們會優先來處理那我所知道的是高鐵是不是有計畫未來我們盡量每一個車站都要有做月台門的設置高鐵在2024年的9月就已經正式宣布要全面的來裝設月台門"},{"start":333.121,"end":353.596,"text":"而且是以板橋跟新竹 因為新竹風很大那板橋因為旅客也眾多 他們要以這兩個站來做優先他們是要全線都要坐越他們 是不是啊 鄭董事長說明一下 是的各位報告 我們確實整個12站都已經發包那尤其在今年的1月已經正式開工了"},{"start":354.096,"end":377.709,"text":"那目前的進度我們準備在三年內就是117年年中的時候整個12個月台的這個月台們全部可以做完那目前我們已經今年裡面應該可以完成這個Polotype的這個測試完成然後我們首先就會剛才委員所提到從新竹跟板橋先做那這應該在明年就可以做了在2024年9月"},{"start":378.889,"end":397.146,"text":"高鐵就正式宣佈要全線去做了 紐約宣佈其實在2024年同年的年底12月在左營站就發生了旅客不幸落軌身亡的這樣的事故其實這個月台門設置其實是有它的必要性好 那現在民眾會說"},{"start":399.348,"end":412.765,"text":"設置月台的月台門在安全性的提升是有幫助的現在民眾更質疑的是說為什麼300公尺的四座就要花了一億五千萬"},{"start":413.966,"end":438.994,"text":"為什麼要花這麼多錢當然這個試做的這樣的一個項目不會是只有說那個月台門下降的這個部分而已它有包含這個事辦的一面升降的四欄繩的月台門還有障礙物偵測的系統還有列車感測感知系統CCTV的監控系統資訊整合系統還有機房監視等一次性的固定設備那個"},{"start":442.179,"end":448.917,"text":"我聖遠代理董事長來說明一下這些啊他的各系統的功能跟他的必要性因為啊"},{"start":450.262,"end":472.215,"text":"下降的這個部分300公尺一億五千萬當然不是只有下降的這個部分它有很多的系統這樣的系統在其他裝置的時候就不用再做了嘛是不是就是說你這個月台是兩邊嘛你現在先做一邊嘛另外一邊在做的時候它的價格是不是就更便宜來說明一下直接說明報告齁委員剛剛講的沒有錯齁因為我們這個屬於事辦齁所以我們"},{"start":476.297,"end":499.796,"text":"大概同仁有很多的想法希望能夠把很多的功能放進來包括監控的部分也包括我們的相關的資訊看可不可以傳到我們現在所謂的鐵道園去所以監控的事情比較多一點那剛剛提到我們現在是一側但是未來我們是兩側所以就是說裡面的建設一些監控呢我就可以少掉很多對我來講成本會比較會更低啦"},{"start":500.296,"end":517.812,"text":"另外一個我們針對這個示範以後我們會相關的功能我們再做一個檢視有些其實可以不用那麼多我們會把它剪掉未來的這個月台門如果做的話一定會更便宜好 吳董事長我再來提問一個問題就是相關的這個月台門"},{"start":519.215,"end":543.209,"text":"上升或下降一直在下降的時候我們看到很多的工廠或公司或是居家的鐵門因為下來的時候造成了民眾或是兒童不慎壓傷或者是造成生命的一些衝擊的狀況那我們這個安全的狀況當然我知道會有一些接觸式的感應或是非接觸式的感應市井的系統偵測的系統來簡單說明這些安全的狀況"},{"start":546.731,"end":549.012,"text":"相關的旅客的安全是最重要的一個前提"},{"start":564.938,"end":588.625,"text":"是是那部長也應該確實的相關的督促我知道這個一億五千萬的爭議其實他是經過公開的招標然後政風單位一開始也都有相關的按照程序來做相關的處置那我們希望要對社會大眾來說明清楚對於社會大眾安全的提升尤其必要性的都應該要去做以上好謝謝委員謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":202,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時49分）謝謝召委。請部長、臺鐵伍代理董事長、高鐵鄭董事長、鐵道局楊局長。"],["主席：請部長、臺鐵伍代理董事長、高鐵鄭董事長、臺鐵局楊局長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：部長好。有關於近期社會大眾對於臺鐵月台門的設置，它的設置雖然是試辦，但經費高達1億5,000萬。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員昆澤：社會大眾對於這樣的月台門設置及所需經費，大家議論紛紛，有兩種主要的聲音，第一種是要不要做月台門，有必要嗎？第二種是說有必要做，但是有必要花這麼多錢嗎？為什麼要花這麼多錢？","其實有關於月台門設置的討論，最主要我記得是在2022年11月28日，臺鐵臺北站有一位行動不方便的旅客，他因為坐輪椅操作的問題或者是人潮擁擠，不慎摔落軌道因而受傷，社會上大家都很不捨，所以就討論到是不是有月台門設置的議題。在11月30號、過了2天之後我們在交通委員會，我就質詢相關的月台門議題，是不是我們要來解釋相關的月台狹窄問題，或者要討論是否設置月台門，以及要設置月台門有哪些優先順序或者相關的時程？我要跟部長提醒一下，其實不只是2022年討論到要設置月台門與否，2017年臺鐵……因為每年都發生很多的這種摔落鐵軌的事件，所以社會大眾就在討論要不要設月台門，當時我記得是要設置在百福站，七堵區有一個百福站，是否要設置這樣的一個月台門，但是當時因為車種複雜，車門的車寬、車距不一樣，以及月台的寬距也不一樣，還有相關技術的問題、系統整合問題，所以這個計畫就延宕下來。","現在設置月台門的議題，最主要是屢屢發生很多落軌事件，不管是臺鐵或高鐵，高鐵最近就發生了3件落軌的事件，其實不只是最近的這些件數。最主要的，我看雙鐵，臺鐵、高鐵每年平均的落軌事件都在10件以上，我們看到臺鐵在2022年到2024年，以及高鐵在2022年到2024年的落軌事件都超過10件以上。其實高鐵更多，因為申報上來的件數，計算的基礎不一樣。臺鐵是有跌落軌道、有受傷與否，或者是造成車輛的延誤與否，但是只要跌落軌道他們就通報，作為計算基礎；高鐵沒有，高鐵只有造成列車的延誤才會列入這個計算，是不是這樣？高鐵鄭董事長講一下。"],["鄭董事長光遠：委員所說的，是的，我們有報告給鐵道局的是列車有延誤5分鐘以上的事件，我們才會通報。"],["李委員昆澤：所以跌落受傷的就沒有計算，為什麼我知道？因為我處理過一個服務案件，民眾在桃園站下手扶梯要去搭高鐵，他不慎跌落軌道受傷，雖然高鐵有做後續處理，但是就沒有列入跌落軌道的計算。"],["鄭董事長光遠：是的，我們……"],["李委員昆澤：所以我要說的就是，我們必須要用更嚴謹的態度來處理落軌的這種狀況，申報要確實，而且落軌的事件非常多，落軌事件中有看到行動不方便的朋友，或者是長者，或者是兒童，或者是身體不舒服的旅客，或者是旅客因為擁擠、推擠，或者是個人生命選擇的狀況，所以這都必須做相關處理。部長，你認為這種月台門的設置有必要性嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，就必要性我們要看的是，第一，剛剛委員有提到是擁擠的部分；第二個就是針對安全的部分，落軌次數比較多的那些車站，代表它擁擠的程度可能是相對高，我們會優先處理。我所知道的是，高鐵是不是有計畫，未來我們儘量每一個車站都要做月台門的設置。"],["李委員昆澤：高鐵在2024年9月就已經正式宣布要全面裝設月台門。"],["陳部長世凱：是，他們會全面來裝。"],["李委員昆澤：而且是以板橋跟新竹，因為新竹風很大。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員昆澤：板橋因為旅客也眾多。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["李委員昆澤：他們要以這兩個站優先，他們是全線都要做月台門……"],["陳部長世凱：對，他們全線要做，已經發包。"],["李委員昆澤：是不是這樣？鄭董事長說明一下。"],["鄭董事長光遠：是的，跟委員報告，確實我們整個12站都已經發包，而且在今年1月已經正式開工了。目前的進度，我們準備在3年內，就是117年年中的時候，整個12個月台的月台門全部可以做完。今年裡面應該可以完成prototype測試，然後我們首先就是，剛才委員所提到的，從新竹跟板橋先做，這個應該在明年就可以做了。"],["李委員昆澤：2024年9月，高鐵就正式宣布要全線去做了。"],["鄭董事長光遠：是的。"],["李委員昆澤：9月宣布，在2024年，同年年底、12月，左營站就發生了旅客不幸落軌身亡的一個事故，月台門設置其實是有它的必要性。","民眾會說設置月台的月台門在安全性的提升上是有幫助的；現在民眾更質疑的是，為什麼300公尺的試作就要花1億5,000萬，為什麼要花這麼多錢？當然，試作的這樣一個項目不會是只有月台門下降的部分而已，包含試辦的一面升降試纜繩月台門、障礙物偵測系統、列車感知系統、CCTV監控系統、資訊整合系統，還有機房建置等一次性固定設備。伍勝園代理董事長來說明一下，各系統的功能跟它的必要性，因為下降的這個部分，300公尺1億5,000萬，當然不是只有下降的這部分，它有很多系統，這樣的一個系統在其他裝置的時候就不用再做了，是不是？"],["伍代理董事長勝園：對……"],["李委員昆澤：月台是兩邊，你現在先做一邊嘛！"],["伍代理董事長勝園：是。"],["李委員昆澤：另外一半在做的時候……"],["伍代理董事長勝園：就不一樣了。"],["李委員昆澤：它的價格是不是就更便宜？說明一下，仔細說明清楚。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：是，跟委員報告，委員剛剛講的沒有錯，因為我們這個是屬於試辦，所以大概同仁也有很多想法，希望能夠把很多的功能放進來，包括監控部分，也包括我們的相關資訊，看可不可以傳到我們現在所謂的鐵道雲，所以監控的事情比較多一點。剛剛提到我們現在先是在一側，但未來我們是兩側，所以裡面的偵測、一些監控我就可以少掉很多，對我們來講成本會更低。","另外，針對這個試辦以後，相關的功能我們再做一個檢視，有些其實可以不用那麼多，我們把它減掉，未來月台如果做的話一定會更便宜。"],["李委員昆澤：好，伍代理董事長，我再提問一個問題，就是相關的月台門上升或下降，一直在下降的時候，我們看到很多工廠、公司或居家的鐵門下來的時候造成民眾或是兒童不慎壓傷，或者造成生命的一些衝擊的狀況，那我們這個安全的狀況，當然我知道會有一些接觸式的感應或非接觸式的感應，示警系統、偵測系統，簡單說明一下這些安全的狀況。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：是，跟委員報告一下，像剛剛講的我們就有所謂非接觸性的用感光下去看，如果有的話它一樣會停止，還有所謂接觸式的，碰到的話，變成防夾裝置，這部分在這個功能裡面，我們現在都有考慮進來。"],["李委員昆澤：好，相關的旅客安全是最重要的一個前提。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：是。"],["李委員昆澤：部長也應該確實做相關的督促。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員昆澤：我知道這1億5,000萬的增列，其實它是經過公開招標……"],["陳部長世凱：對，有3家來競標。"],["李委員昆澤：然後政風單位一開始也都有相關的……"],["陳部長世凱：審查過，對，有了解。"],["李委員昆澤：按照程序做相關的處置，那我們希望要對社會大眾說明清楚。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["李委員昆澤：對於社會大眾安全的提升有其必要性的都應該要去做，以上。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["伍代理董事長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤委員。","現在請傅崐萁總召。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160774","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160774","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b94236901a3a01dfb2b6d8f385a4fd0f0fffa49c2100e055cb59403eb84b7fcc79dab935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:33:32 - 09:49:32","影片長度":"00:16:00","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T09:33:32+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T09:49:32+08:00","duration":960,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.27971875,"end":4.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4.334093750000001,"end":6.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.08909375,"end":10.004093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10.004093750000003,"end":14.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.020968750000002,"end":11.910968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.05409375,"end":14.374718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.880968750000001,"end":31.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.46471875,"end":44.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.424718750000004,"end":52.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":53.37284375,"end":61.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.034093750000004,"end":63.548468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.42596875000001,"end":83.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.30034375000001,"end":91.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.72971875,"end":96.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.17221875,"end":95.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.83034375000001,"end":99.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.47971875,"end":103.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.12909375000001,"end":101.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.67721875000001,"end":111.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.22034375000001,"end":120.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.94034375000001,"end":129.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.96471875,"end":127.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.78721875,"end":129.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.63096875000002,"end":129.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.68159375000002,"end":130.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.35221875000002,"end":132.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.24221875,"end":160.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.59659375,"end":160.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.22096875,"end":167.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.71784375000001,"end":175.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.78409375,"end":180.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.81284375,"end":180.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.93096875,"end":181.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.03221875,"end":193.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.82534375,"end":184.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.27159375000002,"end":190.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.74784375000002,"end":192.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.97534375,"end":197.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.14409375000002,"end":194.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.75534375,"end":207.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.82971875,"end":212.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.22971875000002,"end":213.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.42784375000002,"end":215.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.12784375,"end":230.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.60284375,"end":232.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.33221875,"end":235.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.29409375,"end":237.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.51721875,"end":237.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.49596875,"end":252.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.02971875000003,"end":256.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.59409375,"end":259.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.61096875000004,"end":258.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.21409375,"end":259.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.97346875,"end":259.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.99034375,"end":260.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.02409375,"end":261.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.12534375,"end":261.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.64409375,"end":261.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.99846875000003,"end":262.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.01534375,"end":262.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.03221875,"end":262.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.35284375000003,"end":266.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.74909375000004,"end":275.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":273.30471875,"end":275.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.97096875,"end":277.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.29971875,"end":294.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":294.39846875,"end":294.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.66846875000005,"end":305.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.72159375,"end":307.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.35846875000004,"end":318.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.38784375,"end":308.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.42159375,"end":309.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.19346875,"end":312.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":318.46221875000003,"end":328.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.70534375,"end":333.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.91159375,"end":337.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.65346875,"end":337.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":337.73346875000004,"end":337.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.78409375,"end":337.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":337.80096875000004,"end":337.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.99909375000004,"end":351.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":351.25034375,"end":351.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.62159375000005,"end":374.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.70221875000004,"end":387.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":389.37096875000003,"end":389.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.38784375,"end":389.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":389.40471875000003,"end":396.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.42159375,"end":390.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.95221875000004,"end":396.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.75784375,"end":399.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.71096875,"end":401.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.94284375,"end":406.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.51596875,"end":407.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.73096875000005,"end":413.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.70471875000004,"end":416.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.06284375,"end":422.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.06596875,"end":433.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.55784375,"end":441.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.02096875,"end":447.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.02846875,"end":453.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.18346875000003,"end":455.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.71471875000003,"end":460.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.92096875000004,"end":463.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.04284375000003,"end":473.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.81346875,"end":474.74159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.83846875,"end":476.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.69909375000003,"end":477.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.67346875000004,"end":516.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.7434687499999,"end":518.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.3928437500001,"end":523.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.68346875,"end":532.0490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.43721875,"end":546.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.9665937500001,"end":548.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.99159375,"end":554.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.5559687500001,"end":573.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.15346875,"end":566.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.39784375,"end":568.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.05096875,"end":574.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.9115937500001,"end":583.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.14221875,"end":585.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":585.17159375,"end":586.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":586.40346875,"end":586.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":586.9265937499999,"end":593.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":593.7778437500001,"end":597.6928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.76034375,"end":608.3915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":598.06409375,"end":598.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":608.72909375,"end":612.3740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.5047187499999,"end":614.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":615.0403437500001,"end":625.4015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":625.5703437500001,"end":651.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":647.2209687500001,"end":648.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":649.4822187500001,"end":661.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":661.95284375,"end":664.0959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.18034375,"end":672.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":672.34784375,"end":672.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":672.48284375,"end":677.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":672.5503437500001,"end":672.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":677.3090937500001,"end":677.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":677.8997187500001,"end":679.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":679.24971875,"end":679.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":679.65471875,"end":680.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":680.05971875,"end":680.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":680.09346875,"end":680.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":680.1440937500001,"end":690.6909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":680.46471875,"end":680.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":688.80096875,"end":692.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":691.16346875,"end":692.6147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":693.9140937500001,"end":708.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":709.2365937500001,"end":709.6415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":709.9284687500001,"end":715.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":716.0203437499999,"end":719.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":718.90596875,"end":719.3784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":719.32784375,"end":727.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":727.9509687500001,"end":732.0178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":732.0178437500001,"end":732.2709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":732.2709687500001,"end":733.4184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":734.09346875,"end":736.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":737.1984687500001,"end":739.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":740.65784375,"end":746.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":746.71596875,"end":748.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":748.53846875,"end":748.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":749.5847187500001,"end":750.5803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":750.7322187500001,"end":751.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":751.7109687500001,"end":754.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":755.0859687500001,"end":758.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":758.66346875,"end":759.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":760.35096875,"end":761.8190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":760.8740937500002,"end":763.8272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":763.20284375,"end":763.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":764.14784375,"end":764.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":764.97471875,"end":782.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":783.0478437500001,"end":788.8190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":789.61221875,"end":790.2365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":790.3715937500001,"end":790.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":790.70909375,"end":798.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":798.01596875,"end":817.4053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":815.49846875,"end":815.8528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":818.0634687500001,"end":839.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":820.10534375,"end":820.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":839.7478437500001,"end":845.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":845.7890937500001,"end":849.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":849.0122187500001,"end":849.5690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":849.61971875,"end":850.1259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":850.1259687500001,"end":862.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":850.1765937500002,"end":852.7922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":856.5047187500002,"end":856.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":862.2084687500001,"end":862.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":862.2590937500001,"end":863.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":862.5290937500001,"end":862.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":863.01846875,"end":867.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":868.94159375,"end":886.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":887.3015937500002,"end":907.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":901.94909375,"end":902.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":907.7709687500001,"end":913.0359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":913.0359687500002,"end":918.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":918.67221875,"end":922.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":921.5915937500001,"end":925.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":925.8103437500001,"end":935.9015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":929.1853437500001,"end":930.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":934.9228437500001,"end":938.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":936.8972187500001,"end":937.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":938.28096875,"end":938.4834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":938.4834687500002,"end":938.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":938.51721875,"end":945.8915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":940.7278437500001,"end":942.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":944.9465937500001,"end":948.3047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":948.52409375,"end":951.9328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":951.9328437500001,"end":955.0209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":954.26159375,"end":959.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":958.61534375,"end":958.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":958.9697187500001,"end":959.2734687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.291,"end":14.072,"text":"好 主席麻煩請陳士凱部長好 那個交通部陳部長民航局局長還有我們運安會主委好 那個民航局何局長 來運安會林主委 來高董事長"},{"start":15.049,"end":43.985,"text":"我先很快的來就教因為這一次的這個4月13號華航的飛機的一個狀況剛剛高董事長也說明很清楚但是我想還是要請教這次運安會你的報告講是說非屬重大運輸事故範圍所以為立案調查但本席之前有提過其實運安會應該是一個防範於未然我們當然不希望說每一次是重大事故之後我們才來去做相關的調查如果可以我們在"},{"start":45.792,"end":63.317,"text":"預先預防的一個情況下來去做一個調查跟了解是不是會更加的妥適來 運安會是不是說明一下委員講的沒有錯是如果會預防防範以未然這是最好的那麼這樣子它對航空機實質沒有損害而且沒有那我們有沒有看到真正的low data"},{"start":64.862,"end":82.641,"text":"來 部長或者是我們院安會因為現在是民航局有相關監理機關進行調查那現在華航告訴我們今天給我們的一個簡報是相對比較簡陋只有跟我們講說天氣其他的機場都是不行的那請教不管是我們現在民航局也好或是院安會也好有沒有看到當天的一個確實的一個數據"},{"start":85.599,"end":111.365,"text":"跟委員報告 基本上民航局這邊已經訪談了相關的駕駛跟公司那有關派遣的相關天氣資料我們已經拿到也有看到相關的數據 當天的數據狀況當天的我們還要再調還要再調對 因為相關Meta資料現在4月30號了 4月13號兩個多禮拜以前的事情那現在今天我們做專案報告結果你跟我們講是說你的資料還要再調"},{"start":112.265,"end":131.762,"text":"我們的資料就是我們還要因為根據黃航剛剛講的當天因為機場的前一個小時是包含那個是由機場端來報就是新加坡、拉夫、自民等等所以這些資料基本上我們也要經過判讀跟相關的時間然後包含當天的操作跟防航的地點來 部長本席"},{"start":133.308,"end":158.518,"text":"也過去也是華航的常客我搭最多的就是華航因為我覺得是值得信賴也是我們國家的航空那但是在飛安事件上來講在這次的事故裡面很多人都會懷疑不是以飛安為最優先的考量而是以維修方便所以不是選擇最近的胡志明市的機場或者是馬尼拉機場而是選擇回來到我們台灣的小港機場小港機場不在我們的這個飛行計畫裡面"},{"start":159.998,"end":176.774,"text":"是不是是 報告員本來是沒有在飛行計畫裡面那當時我所理解的是當時的駕駛他是有判斷鄰近的那幾個機場的天氣的狀況包含新加坡在內包含馬尼拉那也包含越南那我們有沒有看到確實的當天"},{"start":179.837,"end":196.714,"text":"這幾個機場的氣候狀況報告委員 剛剛還是華航給我們的資料我們就照單全收在華航的報告的內容其實已經有講到氣候的狀況是 但我們有沒有主動去了解這個部分我們在調資料當中銀行局正在調資料當中這個我會要求大家其實真的沒有那麼難調來 我們先看一下"},{"start":197.973,"end":214.802,"text":"當天本時也去查了一下當天確實新加坡下午的地方有可能會有雷陣雨對飛航有可能有安全的疑慮來當你也看到胡志明市胡志明市整體的氣象降雨量少以及馬尼拉"},{"start":217.342,"end":237.182,"text":"4月13號當天的一個氣象大致穩定但午後可能會有局部雷陣雨我想這個是專業的判斷本席都可以請同仁先去找出相關的資料那更重要的是專業的判斷你這個資料是飛航需求的資料嗎專業判斷對所以本席才提到因為飛航需求的資料需要前一個小時"},{"start":237.702,"end":256.19,"text":"沒錯 所以部長本席才會提醒你如果說兩個禮拜之後到現在你們都沒有掌握資料你們只是片面的聽信華航提供的資料我覺得這不夠專業也沒有盡到監管機關的責任報告委員氣象資料民航局有掌握不是沒有掌握但是監管機關是誰"},{"start":258.359,"end":267.521,"text":"他有掌握啊 他有掌握本席 部長你剛剛沒有辦法回答我的問題其實 我說實在話哪個問題沒辦法回答部長 你在反質詢是不是沒有 我沒有在反質詢哪個問題沒辦法回答部長 你就針對問題 是啊 沒有問題啊好不好 來來來 部長本席現在在"},{"start":278.379,"end":304.747,"text":"要求的是交通部站在中央主管機關應該要看到我們各飛航的專業來協助飛航怎麼樣做經濟而華航主要在這一次的事件裡面讓外界質疑的聲音到現在沒有少過即便今天講得如此的好聽但是我說了到現在兩個禮拜之後到目前為止你們的飛航紀錄以及相關的航空資訊到目前為止你們沒有掌握"},{"start":305.782,"end":328.302,"text":"既然沒有掌握本席只是要求說是不是應該要去做一個管理以及立案調查去真真正正的了解說當天的狀況是不是符合現場的判斷報告委員民航局說他們有掌握啦只是說資料要分析需要再分析相關的資料他們真的有掌握啦不是沒掌握跟委員報告"},{"start":329.583,"end":337.291,"text":"如果說要這樣硬凹的話 我覺得這不是一個做實現的做法那我可以請民航局提供資料給你們來 我們再來"},{"start":339.022,"end":365.35,"text":"民航局什麼時候會給國人一個清楚明白的交代針對這一次的華航的判斷的一個事件因為外界大家都在質疑其實我今天有很多的議題啊部長我說實在話我很希望能夠心平氣和跟你就專業論專業今天是在做後續的檢討我們今天沒有發生任何的人為意外我覺得這是萬幸但是萬幸完之後我們要去釐清說到底"},{"start":366.31,"end":387.677,"text":"華航的決策是不是站在乘客的安全為最高指導標準還是說站在他們的航空的維護的安全方面你可以搖頭那就代表請你用數據以及用你們的報告專業的來說服我們而不是到現在兩個禮拜之後給出了我們這一份只有華航單方面的一個片面資料"},{"start":389.677,"end":413.009,"text":"來再來報告委員民航局的報告是用書面的他不是來台上報告但他有提供書面您可以參考他的書面報告黃航有沒有看到這一個投書有有看到黃航剛剛跟我們講得非常的好聽喔說有包括這個這個回程的作業支持主動跟旅客致意表達建議等等的"},{"start":413.749,"end":440.528,"text":"那我們來看一下這個是其中一個投書過去一個禮拜非常煎熬始終沒有任何正式的說明或者是更新以乘客安全當時的機上廣播以乘客安全為優先的決定感覺像是以公私利益為出發點這是大多數乘客的感受最後收到的希望能夠索取一個延誤證明但最後收到的是一個簡單的備忘錄"},{"start":442.096,"end":462.907,"text":"沒有忽略台北起飛13.5個小時的過程以及收到的是一個300塊的餐券跟金沙巧克力華航你的資料報告說明的很完整看起來完整"},{"start":464.133,"end":474.465,"text":"最大的關懷處理最大的誠意速度全力處理協助平安續行但實際上乘客的感受是這樣子天差地別這個"},{"start":479.1,"end":501.779,"text":"這對姐弟我們有掌握,在新加坡人當時飛機回航的時候,在高雄我們就盡力的供應飲料還有餐食這些東西就是為了準備下一次的起飛後來我們當天下午就又派了一架加班機從台北到高雄,然後再把高雄載到新加坡去"},{"start":502.941,"end":517.538,"text":"這個我們真的不是用那個航機維修的那個考量假如真的航機維修我乾脆就飛到台北就好啦我根本不需要到高雄然後再派飛機上這個大費周章所以基本上真的是底下的那個"},{"start":520.261,"end":546.042,"text":"東南亞的這些天氣不是很好所以我們華航的說明我覺得還是要由主管機關這邊來做一個認定因為這就代表是我們要看到一個問題今天真的是不幸中的大幸沒有造成任何的人員傷亡但我每一次在交通委員會我都講如果說要等到人員傷亡要等到後面全都排排站有很多攝影機的時候那代表我們出大事"},{"start":547.028,"end":552.766,"text":"不要有任何事情最好所以在這件例子上面民航局什麼時候能夠再做釐清來給國人確認"},{"start":555.78,"end":583.762,"text":"跟委員報告因為剛剛所提到的相關關心的天氣資料也好飛航的過程組員的判斷等等因為民航局都要根據剛剛委員所提的我們自己調查到的資料而不是單憑華航的提供的資料所以這個部分我們需要花一些時間在做處理那是不是委員這邊可以給我們如果是初步報告因為一般來講我們是完成完整的報告那如果初步的報告我們是不是建議可以一個月"},{"start":584.158,"end":609.528,"text":"好 一個月來 部長再來請教我們上上禮拜有討論到美國關稅的問題那您也提到是說對於觀光業以及運輸業 航運業有很大的衝擊那現在行政院提出了4100億本期兩個禮拜前在這邊有跟您就教交通部有沒有針對這個部分特別條例有爭取任何行政院這邊的支持那現在4100億出來啦本來的880億"},{"start":613.55,"end":628.424,"text":"沒有交通部那多增加了三四倍到4100億到目前為止沒有看到細項那我想請教4100億裡面交通部不管是觀光的部分不管是航運的部分佔了多少報告委員我們有個別跟這個航運業界空運業界"},{"start":630.246,"end":650.242,"text":"還有觀光業界大家都有辦過座談會那目前看起來海運跟航空的影響還沒有很大所以這個部分目前應該就是有一些調整性的東西跟彈性的東西我們有提供給業者給他們協助那另外觀光業界我昨天有跟他們座談我有看到新聞也有出來但我現在問的問題部長深度問題回答問題好4100億"},{"start":655.006,"end":677.483,"text":"有支持產業930億有國土安全認証1500億有照顧民生1670億這個是額外因應美國關稅那你兩個禮拜前在這邊也詢答說有特別講到觀光產業有可能會有非常大的衝擊我們那時候也說料底要從寬所以如果說有任何支持資源的力量也應該要來預先掌握"},{"start":678.143,"end":689.515,"text":"那4100億裡面有沒有交通的部分目前我們跟這個業者大家座談跟一些協助的方案的討論我們目前用觀光的基金應該都還能夠應付所以4100億裡面是沒有交通觀光"},{"start":693.971,"end":708.103,"text":"你們做決策要負責啦來最後我想今天很重要的部分還是在於是安全的部分那有兩個我再佔用一小段時間啦有兩個最近的新聞我覺得這個東西也是見為之助"},{"start":709.284,"end":733.204,"text":"部長一個是有行人要過馬路那高舉雙手舉了雙手意思就代表說要過馬路那結果這一個畫面裡面他可能沒有辦法播放影片那這個畫面裡面連續過了十幾台車都沒有停讓那之後才讓這個行人過去這是一個部分另外下一個部分"},{"start":734.145,"end":757.26,"text":"因為行人在過馬路而導致於救護車已經有警示燈的救護車他要等行人過馬路而救護車才啟動那再加上早上新聞又推播我們交通部的小編跟剛剛部長一樣也是很強悍"},{"start":759.035,"end":782.283,"text":"這個很嗆 就是在交通部的很嗆是講道理 很嗆 不會用嗆的啦很好 部長我們希望就事論事 就專業論專業啦所以一樣 就是說在現在的執法已經我們為了要擺脫行人地獄一年多的時間但難免在社會上有遇到很多的狀況每個人都會以本位主義為考量"},{"start":784.026,"end":787.455,"text":"駕駛用路人以及行人等等的部分本席認為應該都是"},{"start":790.869,"end":816.791,"text":"我們不能說偏廢權益都要互相尊重那在這兩個案例裡面部長看到什麼樣的狀況報告委員大家像委員剛剛所提到的大家對於大家平等的狀況的共識我認為這個社會還不足啦那但是對交通部來說最重要的行人的安全因為這關係到人命這個部分我們會去要求所以剛剛那個影片雖然沒有辦法播放但我有看過那桃園市政府也有針對"},{"start":818.332,"end":843.77,"text":"這十幾台車有裁罰這個部分有裁罰那針對行人的部分其實我知道因為這個我們現在開始尊重行人之後有些行人的違規的狀況我們也都看得到那這個部分該罰其實也都有罰那最近這兩年我們在行人違規的開罰的這個數量其實也增加了不少因為現在大家都有行車紀錄器如果有行車紀錄器的檢舉這些該罰其實也都會罰"},{"start":846.392,"end":866.754,"text":"開罰是最好的做法嗎其實不是 大家的觀念是最重要的所以我們觀念的提升以及怎麼樣用制度的設計讓更多人能夠清楚明白了解一個過馬路每天大家都要做的事情的一個順暢本席只提一個這一個我覺得真的是可以研究討論"},{"start":868.988,"end":885.816,"text":"粉絲專頁上面也拍到日本有一個畫面他是在很多的價值朋友也抱怨就是說有看到行人在路邊的時候他不確定這行人到底要不要過馬路也因此他不確定說要不要停等那行人如果說他已經有他的習慣譬如說舉手代表是過馬路"},{"start":887.512,"end":907.252,"text":"另外一個部分像日本他有一個有趣的設計是說他有多畫一個過馬路時候的停等區如果說行人站在那上面代表他就是要準備過馬路那那個時候駕駛就應該要停下來讓行人過但如果說他不是停在那個地方的話可能他只是在路邊等朋友"},{"start":907.873,"end":917.712,"text":"他就不一定要停下來我覺得光這樣子的一個部分也許在幾個路口可以做事辦的方式非號之路口是可以這麼做的"},{"start":918.715,"end":947.945,"text":"我們可以來示範我們可以來示範我覺得這是蠻好的方法但我本席提醒一下像這個他是畫在馬路上如果說畫的話應該是要畫在行人畫裡面一點是畫裡面一點不然我覺得我看了也覺得說這個小朋友在馬路上側邊好像也有點危險為了要去那邊停等在日本可能比較安全在台灣可能比較危險好所以部長針對這個部分如果說能夠來示範什麼時候能夠來推行或說至少來做一個研擬跟規劃設計省到找個地方來做好不好"},{"start":948.956,"end":957.988,"text":"我們省道很快速的來示範幾個路口我想還是要跟地方政府溝通之後來去做推行新北市跟台北市我們來跟他們溝通"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":106,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時33分）主席，麻煩請陳世凱部長。"],["主席：好，請交通部陳部長。"],["洪委員孟楷：民航局局長還有運安會主委、華航高董事長。"],["主席：好，民航局何局長、運安會林主委，以及高董事長。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在很快的來就教各位，因為這一次4月13號華航飛機的狀況，剛剛高董事長也說明得很清楚，但是我還是要請教，這次運安會的報告說這非屬重大運輸事故範圍，所以未立案調查，但本席之前有提過，其實運安會應該要防範於未然，我們當然不希望在每一次重大事故之後才做相關的調查，如果可以在預先預防的情況下去做調查跟了解，是不是會更加妥適？來，運安會是不是說明一下？"],["林主任委員信得：委員講得沒有錯，如果能預防、防範於未然是最好的，那麼它的航空器沒有實質損害，而且沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：那我們有沒有看到真正的raw data？來，部長或者是運安會，因為現在是由民航局相關監理機關進行調查，現在華航告訴我們，今天給我們的簡報也相對比較簡陋，只有跟我們講到天氣、其他的機場都是不行的，請教一下，現在不管是民航局也好或是運安會也好，有沒有看到當天確實的數據？"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，基本上民航局這邊已經訪談了相關的駕駛跟公司，我們也已經拿到有關派遣的相關天氣資料，相關的……"],["洪委員孟楷：有看到相關的數據，當天的數據及狀況？"],["何局長淑萍：當天的我們還要再調，因為當天……"],["洪委員孟楷：還要再調？"],["何局長淑萍：對，因為相關的METAR資料……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在4月30號了，這是4月13號、兩個多禮拜以前的事情，今天我們做專案報告，結果你跟我們講你們的資料還要再調？"],["何局長淑萍：我們的資料還要……根據華航剛剛講的，當天因為機場前一個小時是包含……那個由機場端來報，就是新加坡、胡志明等等，所以這些資料基本上我們也要經過判讀跟相關的時間，包含當天的操作跟……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席過去也是華航的常客，我搭最多的就是華航，因為我覺得它最值得信賴，也是我們國家的航空，但是在飛安事件上來講，在這次事故裡面，很多人都會懷疑這不是以飛安為最優先的考量，而是以維修方便，所以不是選擇最近的胡志明市機場，或者是馬尼拉的機場，而是選擇回到我們臺灣的小港機場，小港機場不在我們的飛行計畫裡面，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，這本來沒有在飛行計畫裡面，而我所理解的是，當時駕駛判斷鄰近幾個機場的天氣狀況，包含新加坡、馬尼拉在內，也包含越南……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們有沒有確實看到當天這幾個機場的氣候狀況？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，剛剛……"],["洪委員孟楷：還是華航給的資料就照單全收？"],["陳部長世凱：在華航報告的內容當中其實已經有講到氣候的狀況……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但你們有沒有主動去了解跟掌握？"],["陳部長世凱：這部分我們在調資料，民航局正在調資料當中，這個我會要求……"],["洪委員孟楷：其實真的沒有那麼難調。來，我們先看一下，當天本席也去查了一下，當天確實新加坡下午可能會有雷陣雨，對飛航可能有安全的疑慮；當天也看到胡志明市整體氣象是降雨量少；以及馬尼拉4月13號當天氣象大致穩定，但午後可能會有局部雷陣雨。我想這個是專業的判斷，本席都可以請同仁先去找出相關的資料，更重要的是專業的判斷……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您這個資料是飛航需求的資料嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：對，所以本席才提到，部長……"],["陳部長世凱：飛航需求的資料需要前一個小時。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒錯，部長，所以本席才會提醒，如果你們從兩個禮拜前到現在都沒有掌握資料，你們只是片面聽信華航提供的資料，我覺得這不夠專業，也沒有盡到監管機關的責任……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，關於氣象資料，民航局有掌握，不是沒有掌握。"],["洪委員孟楷：但監管機關是誰？部長……"],["陳部長世凱：他們有掌握啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你剛剛沒有辦法回答我的問題，其實我說實在話……"],["陳部長世凱：哪個問題沒辦法回答？"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你在反質詢是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：沒有，我沒有在反質詢，哪個問題沒辦法回答？"],["主席：部長，你就針對問題，大家溝通看看。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有問題，我就回答……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席現在要求交通部站在中央主管機關的立場，應該要看到各飛航的專業來協助飛航怎麼樣精進……"],["陳部長世凱：一定要做。"],["洪委員孟楷：而華航在這一次事件中讓外界質疑的聲音到現在沒有少過……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：即便今天講得如此的好聽，但是我說了，到現在兩個禮拜了，你們的飛航紀錄以及相關的航空資訊到目前為止還沒有掌握，既然沒有掌握……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實民航局有掌握資料……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席只是要求你們是不是應該要做好管理以及立案調查，真真正正了解當天狀況是不是符合現場的判斷？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，民航局說他們有掌握，只是資料要分析，需要再分析相關的資料，他們真的有掌握啦，不是沒掌握。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，如果要這樣硬拗的話，我覺得這不是一個……"],["陳部長世凱：沒有硬拗，資料有就是有，沒有就是沒有，我可以請民航局提供資料給您，這沒問題啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：再來，民航局什麼時候會給國人一個清楚、明白的交代？針對這一次華航判斷的事件，因為外界都在質疑，其實我今天有很多的議題，部長……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：說實在話，我很希望能夠心平氣和跟你就專業論專業……"],["陳部長世凱：沒有問題啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：今天是在做後續的檢討，當天沒有發生任何的人為意外，我覺得這是萬幸，但是萬幸之後要去釐清，到底華航的決策是不是站在以乘客安全為最高指導標準，還是站在他們航空維護的安全方便？你可以搖頭，那就請你們用數據以及用你們的報告，用專業來說服我們，而不是在兩個禮拜之後，給了我們這份只有華航單方面的片面資料。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，民航局的報告是用書面，並非上臺報告，但有提供書面，您可以參考。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來，華航有沒有看到這則投書？"],["高董事長星潢：有，有看到。"],["洪委員孟楷：華航剛剛講得非常好聽，說包括回程的作業支持、主動跟旅客致意、表達歉意等等。這是其中一則投書，我們來看一下：過去一個禮拜非常煎熬，始終沒有任何正式的說明或更新。當時機上廣播說，以乘客安全為優先決定，但感覺像是以公司利益為出發點，這是大多數乘客的感受……希望能索取延誤證明，但最後收到的是簡單的備忘錄，忽略臺北起飛13.5個小時的過程及300塊的餐券跟金沙巧克力。華航的資料報告說明得很完整，看起來完整，以最大的關懷去處理，最大的誠意速度全力處理，協助平安續行。但實際上乘客的感受卻是這樣子，根本是天差地別！"],["高董事長星潢：這對姐弟我們有掌握，是新加坡人。當時飛機回航高雄時，我們盡力供應飲料及餐食，這些就是為了準備下一次的起飛。後來我們在當天下午又派了一架加班機從臺北到高雄，然後再從高雄把旅客載到新加坡去，我們真的不是以航機維修為考量，假如真的是航機維修，乾脆飛到臺北就好了，根本不需要到高雄，然後再大費周章派飛機過去。基本上真的是因為東南亞的天氣不是很好，所以……"],["洪委員孟楷：華航的說明還是要由主管機關來做認定，因為代表了我們所看到的問題。這次真的是不幸中的大幸，沒有造成任何人員傷亡，但我每一次在交通委員會都講，如果說要等到人員傷亡才來想辦法，要等到人員都在後面全排排站，而且有很多攝影機時，代表我們出大事了！不要出任何事情最好！在這件事情上，民航局什麼時候能再釐清給國人確認？"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，因為剛剛所提到的，不論是天氣的資料也好，或飛航的過程、組員的判斷等等，民航局都要根據委員所提及我們自己調查到的資料去判斷，而非單憑華航所提供的資料。所以這部分我們需要花一些時間做處理，委員是不是可以給我們一點時間？一般來講，我們會提出完成完整的報告，但如果初步報告的話，是不是建議給我們一個月？"],["洪委員孟楷：好，一個月。","請教部長，上上禮拜有討論到美國關稅問題，你也提到對於觀光業以及運輸業、航運業有很大衝擊，所以行政院提出了4,100億的特別預算。本席在兩個禮拜前在這邊就教部長，交通部有沒有針對特別條例來爭取行政院的任何支持？現在4,100億出來了，本來的880億沒有交通部，現在增加三、四倍到4,100億，只是到目前為止，還沒有看到細項。我想請教這4,100億裡面，交通部不管是觀光還是航運到底占了多少？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們有個別跟航運業界、空運業界及觀光業界辦過座談會，目前看起來，海運跟航空的影響還沒有很大，不過我們有提供調整性及彈性的東西給業者並協助他們。另外，我昨天有跟觀光業界座談……"],["洪委員孟楷：我有看到，新聞也有出來。"],["陳部長世凱：他們希望我們可以做……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，針對問題，回答問題。這4,100億當中，支持產業930億，國土安全韌性1,500億，照顧民生1,670億，這是因應美國關稅額外編列的。兩個禮拜前你在這邊詢答時特別講到，觀光產業可能會受到非常大的衝擊，我們那時候也說料敵從寬。因此，如果有任何支持、支援的力量也應該要預先掌握，所以這4,100億裡面有沒有交通的部分？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，日前我們跟業者進行座談及協助方案的討論，目前用觀光基金應該都還能夠應付……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以4,100億裡面沒有交通、觀光？"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒有放在裡面。"],["洪委員孟楷：OK，你們做了決策就要負責。最後，今天很重要的還是在安全部分。有兩個問題，我再占用一小段時間。最近的新聞其實見微知著，部長，有一則新聞是行人高舉雙手要過馬路，行人舉了雙手就代表要過馬路。"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：這裡可能沒辦法播放影片，不過還是可以知道，連續過了十幾臺車都沒有停讓，之後行人才過去，這是一個。另一個，因為行人過馬路，而導致已經開啟警示燈的救護車等行人過馬路才啟動，早上新聞推播，交通部小編跟剛剛部長一樣，很強悍、很嗆……"],["陳部長世凱：不是嗆，是講道理，我跟委員不會用嗆的。"],["洪委員孟楷：很好。部長，我們希望就事論事，就專業論專業。這一年多時間裡，我們努力想擺脫行人地獄之名，但難免在社會上遇到很多狀況，畢竟每個人都以本位主義為考量。但不管駕駛、用路人以及行人，本席認為應該都是一體的，我們不能有偏廢，權益都要互相尊重。在這兩個案例裡，部長看到什麼狀況？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，像委員剛剛所提到對於平等狀況的共識，我認為這個社會還不足！但對交通部來說，最重要的是行人的安全，因為關係到人命，所以這個部分，我們會去要求。雖然剛剛影片沒有辦法播放，但我有看過，桃園市政府也針對這十幾臺車做裁罰，這個部分有裁罰。針對行人的部分，我知道在開始尊重行人之後，確實有些行人違規的狀況，我們也都看得到，這部分該罰的其實都有罰。最近這兩年，針對行人違規開罰的數量其實也增加了不少，畢竟現在大家都有行車紀錄器，如果以行車紀錄器去檢舉，其實該罰的都會罰。"],["洪委員孟楷：開罰是最好的作法嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：其實不是！"],["洪委員孟楷：也不是？"],["陳部長世凱：大家的觀念是最重要的。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以觀念的提升以及怎麼樣用制度設計，讓更多人能清楚、明白、了解，過馬路是大家每天都要做的事情……順暢……"],["陳部長世凱：對，該遵守的規則與禮貌……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席只提一點，這點我覺得值得研究與討論。粉絲專頁上有拍到日本的一個畫面，很多駕駛朋友抱怨，有看到行人在路邊，但不確定行人到底要不要過馬路，也因此不確定要不要停等，畢竟行人也有習慣，譬如舉手代表要過馬路。另外，日本有一個有趣的設計，也就是劃設過馬路的停等區，一旦行人站在上面就代表準備過馬路，那時候駕駛就應該要停下來讓行人過；如果行人不是站在那個地方，可能只是在路邊等朋友，那就不一定要停下來。就這樣子來看，也許我們可以在幾個路口試辦……"],["陳部長世凱：非號誌路口是可以這麼做，我們可以來試辦，我覺得這是滿好的方法。"],["洪委員孟楷：但本席提醒一下，日本是畫在馬路上，如果我們要畫的話應該是畫在行人……"],["陳部長世凱：要畫裡面一點，比較安全。"],["洪委員孟楷：要畫裡面一點，不然我看了也覺得小朋友站在馬路側邊好像有點危險，為了要去那邊停等。"],["陳部長世凱：在日本可能比較安全，在臺灣可能比較危險。"],["洪委員孟楷：針對這部分，如果能試辦的話，什麼時候能夠來推行？至少先做研擬跟規劃設計。"],["陳部長世凱：先在省道找個地方來做，好不好？我們很快在省道幾個路口來試辦，好不好？"],["洪委員孟楷：好，但還是要跟地方政府溝通後做推行，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我們會跟新北市及臺北市溝通。"],["洪委員孟楷：感謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","現在請李昆澤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-9","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳雪生","何欣純","廖先翔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","陳素月","林俊憲","徐富癸","魯明哲","許智傑","王義川","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","邱若華","邱志偉","黃建賓","王美惠","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李柏毅","游顥","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","蔡易餘","林德福","黃健豪","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":373,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長何淑萍、交通部鐵道局局長楊正君、國營臺灣鐵\n路股份有限公司代理董事長伍勝園、台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司董事長鄭光遠、中華航空股份有\n限公司董事長高星潢及國家運輸安全調查委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「近期我國航空、鐵路運\n營安全事件之檢討與改善及臺鐵票價調整方案」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00008"}}},{"id":"160773","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160773","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423692329e51c9a13456f0ca66b6f3bc7c703c2100e055cb59403147423978a1619b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"10:28:45 - 10:38:19","影片長度":"00:09:34","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T10:28:45+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:38:19+08:00","duration":574,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.0559687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.654093750000001,"end":10.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.57784375,"end":12.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.176593750000002,"end":14.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.00284375,"end":18.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.59346875,"end":18.610343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.16659375,"end":24.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.70221875,"end":25.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.20846875,"end":54.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.330343750000004,"end":58.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.329718750000005,"end":61.742843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.07596875,"end":68.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.66159375000001,"end":73.26846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.42034375,"end":89.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.39784375,"end":82.54971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.05159375000001,"end":84.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.67096875,"end":107.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.80471875,"end":98.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.57534375,"end":116.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.04221875,"end":119.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.58596875,"end":121.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.76721875000001,"end":133.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.09034375000002,"end":136.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.38971875000001,"end":134.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.41471875000002,"end":157.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.88721875000002,"end":137.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.87534375,"end":169.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.46846875,"end":174.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.91909375,"end":252.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.66659375,"end":260.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.13784375,"end":267.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.46596875,"end":323.98034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.80284375,"end":359.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.32096875,"end":392.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.46409375,"end":360.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.39221875000004,"end":362.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.53534375000004,"end":420.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.33659375,"end":466.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.65846875000005,"end":499.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.32409375000003,"end":512.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.6597187500001,"end":548.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.72159375,"end":561.1415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.07409375,"end":566.2547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.6215937500001,"end":574.4897187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.529,"end":1.97,"text":"請吳佩奕委員質詢謝謝主席 我請故宮博物院蕭院長請蕭院長備質詢 謝謝委員長"},{"start":23.828,"end":39.219,"text":"院長好現在的淨零碳排跟環境永續是國際的目標那也是我們台灣中華民國的目標所以行政院其實有訂定我們每四年要進行一次國家自願檢視報告"},{"start":40.64,"end":56.989,"text":"那我看我們故宮在2021年的時候也有提出過這個SDGs的這個資源檢視報告那四年一次也就是到今年就是宇吉應該要提出下一次的報告了目前我們有沒有在進行相關的盤點目前進行相關的盤點之中盤點的那盤點的狀況怎麼樣呢其中關於這個碳盤碳排的盤點是我最關切的"},{"start":68.723,"end":84.397,"text":"我們知不知道說我們最大的比例是來自於什麼來源跟委員報告我們最大的比例的部分我們出盤的時候的比例來源的話是運輸的部分旅客運輸的部分是最大的來源的部分佔了75%那相關的盤點你們已經在做了所以今年這個資源檢視報告會出來嗎"},{"start":89.924,"end":118.386,"text":"今年的十月份的時候我們會我們現在正在進行中各單位都在做檢視那我們十月份部分的話我們的資源檢視報告會出預計是十月好那我們有這個檢視跟盤點那重要的是下一步我們要預計怎麼樣來減少我們的碳排有沒有一些主要的這個計畫出來了跟委員報告我們針對於深度節能的部分還有公務車電動化的電動化的這個部分還有那個一些相關的"},{"start":121.884,"end":134.597,"text":"電 深度減能部分包括一些空調然後LED照明的這個部分都會進行簡化的部分還有綠色採購的部分的一些加深的部分加強的部分都會公務車你們現在有幾台"},{"start":136.476,"end":156.678,"text":"有八台我看了一下八台嘛其中有兩台已經是換成電動車所以你在汰換也是汰換六台院長這部分我想效果恐怕有限那其他我們還有沒有剛剛講到這個綠採購這個是配合環境部的政策有沒有一個目標例如說哪一年我們要達到百分之多少是要進行綠採購"},{"start":159.409,"end":162.472,"text":"綠色採購的話基本上來講的話我們是超標的總金額的話到達10%跟委員報告一下就是說那個"},{"start":176.236,"end":204.108,"text":"這個部分的話應該分幾個部分來講就是說一個是所謂的建築的建築的方面從建築設計上面來講的話故宮南院的話基本上是立建築然後是那個智慧建築北院基本上來講的話我們未來在修正的時候也會朝這個方向來進行另外一個是設備的方面設備的方面的話我們把一些舊的機器包括那個空調改成那個"},{"start":206.009,"end":230.718,"text":"變平的基本上來講的話它也可以減輕碳排那另外的話就是綠色採購當然是一部分另外的話故宮博物院因為我們的展場的話都是用玻璃櫃看起來的話花的經費比較多可是因為後續上面的維護我們就減掉了很多所謂的展場佈置的家具的一個裝飾所以這個部分的話其實也節省蠻多的"},{"start":231.458,"end":259.429,"text":"那另外的話就是我們現在在處理文物的庫房文物庫房部分的話就是以山洞庫房來講的話因為山洞庫房它的濕度比較高那我們要讓它很溫室的話它的匯電會比較高所以我們希望說未來山洞庫房的物件的話通通搬出來標準庫房所以這個部分的話去處理的話也會產生一個淨營減碳的一個效果"},{"start":261.215,"end":267.344,"text":"就像我們各個方面的話就是不是一項工作而是每一項工作的話都要去檢討是沒錯因為文化部也有頒布過這個文化產業禁令的指引嘛其中就是有建議可以採用建築能源管理系統"},{"start":277.438,"end":283.142,"text":"那我看了一下未來我們在北院的擴展件當中應該也會陸續的來增加相關的系統所以這部分我們是很支持你們這個新故宮計畫的擴展件那希望也能夠這個如期的來進行那另外呢要跟院長提醒的是因為在台北市啊去年通過一個新的自治條例就台北市淨零排放管理自治條例針對我們跟台電公司這個簽的"},{"start":303.177,"end":305.7,"text":"用電契約如果用量是在800千瓦以上的未來會要求政府要求你必須要有就是發電還有儲電的設備那我們故宮的每一年我們的契約容量是3000千瓦所以目前你們有沒有依據這個法規的修訂在進行相關的準備了"},{"start":325.996,"end":342.274,"text":"因為規定的話是要4000千瓦所以北部縣區的話3000千瓦是還沒有南部縣區的話基本上來講的話因為我剛講就是說我們已經是立建築跟智慧建築那另外的話南院也是一個"},{"start":344.036,"end":359.105,"text":"南二停車場南二停車場的話基本上來講的話它是一個太陽能板的一個停車場所以雖然沒有辦法自止用電因為我們是跟廠商因為錢都是廠商付的就是對 院長你現在講的是發電因為它這個"},{"start":361.186,"end":366.269,"text":"也包含到了儲電所以我現在要提醒的就是說因為法規雖然今年上路但是我們這個用量它有輔導期應該是在116年之後但是因為我們北院我們故宮又是有這個文資身份你如果要做相關的設施用地評估等等恐怕都要及早開始規劃所以這部分我要提醒你們就是說從今年開始我們恐怕就要來啟動有關於我們未來最發電跟儲能相關設施北院跟南院的規劃了"},{"start":390.566,"end":420.318,"text":"南院一直都現在都納入規劃包括新的那個南院的二館就是國保館那北院的話因為它既有一個文資身份它是歷史建築另外一個文化景觀所以在做這部分的話我們還要在法規上面去尋求一個調適性但是未來的話如果是行政園區的話它有工程的話我們一定會把就是自主能源納入好"},{"start":420.718,"end":425.402,"text":"那這個相關的進度也請再讓我們了解另外要跟院長關心的是故宮好客你們去年12月推出了這個台灣旅遊攻略的觀光手冊我覺得非常好因為去年在這裡魏根院長建議過認為故宮我們是國家第一級博物館應該要去擔任觀光導流然後甚至是要串聯我們國內的博物館群加上在地景點很重要的一個引擎所以我看到你們推出這個觀光手冊我覺得非常的肯定"},{"start":448.038,"end":456.641,"text":"但是我去細看一下裡面你們推薦的北跟南總共是十條的旅遊攻略的路線我覺得以台北市的路線跟推薦的景點來說豐富度是非常的不足例如你們裡面推薦的故宮北院附近的景點有五個"},{"start":466.804,"end":492.723,"text":"只有五個然後在其他台北市裡面你們其他推薦的點總共十四個裡面只有一間博物館六間餐廳一個賣店跟六個景點其實如果以我們現在台北市例如說台北市政府的觀傳局它已經有一個台北市一百條文化小旅行這樣的路線以我們既有的路線來講其實一條旅的路線裡面可以推薦的景點甚至在地的店家應當是可以更加豐富所以我想要請問一下"},{"start":493.764,"end":512.007,"text":"我們這個旅遊路線有沒有跟台北市政府的觀傳局或是文化局來進行相關的討論我們就是跟台北市觀傳局合作的那當然故宮因為故宮第一次辦理故宮浩克這個小冊子那未來的話我們如果再辦的話我們再來精進"},{"start":513.088,"end":531.001,"text":"我想這個未來我們也可以來召集台北市的官傳局還有文化局跟故宮一起來討論因為我認為我們這個路線裡面有一個很重要的責任我們要去推廣台北市的博物館群以我的選區中正區來說這個是台北市博物館最"},{"start":531.941,"end":548.019,"text":"綿密的地區像你們這個推薦的路線裡面有一個台博館這鐵道不圓區嘛這個院長應該有應當看過這個路線問題是光是台博館就有四個分館你們卻只推薦了一間我覺得相當的可惜所以這個後續我們再來跟你們進行相關的討論好不好"},{"start":548.74,"end":566.044,"text":"好 謝謝委員因為這個基本上來講的話我們有很多策略聯盟包括聯票的方式是沒有呈現在這上面可是我們跟北部很多管所的話都有聯票的合作對 應當是有機會可以一起呈現在這個觀光手冊裡面的好 謝謝 謝謝主席謝謝吳佩奕委員的質詢請院長回座接下來有請范雲委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":358,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（10時28分）謝謝主席，我請故宮博物院蕭院長。"],["主席：請蕭院長備詢，謝謝。"],["蕭院長宗煌：委員早。"],["吳委員沛憶：院長好。現在淨零碳排跟環境永續是國際的目標，也是我們臺灣中華民國的目標，所以行政院其實有訂定我們每4年要進行一次國家自願檢視報告，我看故宮在2021年的時候也有提出過SDGs的自願檢視報告，每4年一次，也就是到今年應該要提出下一次的報告了，目前你們有沒有在進行相關的盤點？"],["蕭院長宗煌：目前在進行相關的盤點之中。"],["吳委員沛憶：盤點了，那盤點的狀況怎麼樣呢？其中關於碳排的盤點是我最關切的，你們知不知道最大的比例是來自於什麼來源？"],["張處長嬋娟：跟委員報告，初盤的時候我們最大的比例來源是運輸的部分，旅客運輸的部分是最大的來源。"],["吳委員沛憶：占了75%？"],["張處長嬋娟：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：相關的盤點你們已經在做了，所以今年自願檢視報告會出來嗎？"],["張處長嬋娟：我們現在正在進行中，各單位都在做檢視，今年10月份的時候，我們的自願檢視報告會出來。"],["吳委員沛憶：預計是10月？"],["張處長嬋娟：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。我們做了檢視跟盤點之後，重要的是下一步我們預計要怎麼樣來減少碳排，有沒有一些主要的計畫出來了？"],["張處長嬋娟：跟委員報告，針對深度節能的部分，還有公務車電動化的部分，深度節能的部分包括一些空調，然後LED照明的部分都會進行減碳，還有也會加強綠色採購的部分。"],["吳委員沛憶：公務車的部分，你們現在有幾臺？"],["張處長嬋娟：有8臺。"],["吳委員沛憶：我看了一下有8臺，其中有2臺已經換成電動車，所以你再汰換也是汰換6臺。","院長，這部分我想效果恐怕有限，我們還有沒有其他的計畫？剛剛講到綠採購，這是配合環境部的政策，有沒有一個目標，例如說哪一年要達到百分之多少是綠採購？"],["蕭院長宗煌：綠色採購基本上來講我們是超標的，總金額到達百分之十。","跟委員報告，這部分應該分幾個面向來講，一個是所謂的建築的淨零，就是從建築設計上面來講，故宮南院基本上是綠建築，也是智慧建築；北院基本上我們未來在修正的時候也會朝這個方向來進行。另外一個是設備方面，設備方面我們把一些舊的機具，包括空調改成變頻的，基本上它也可以減輕碳排。另外，綠色採購當然是一部分。另外，因為我們故宮博物院的展場都是用玻璃櫃，看起來花的經費比較多，可是後續的維護我們就減掉很多展場布置的家具裝設，所以這個部分其實也節省蠻多的。另外就是我們現在在處理文物的庫房，文物庫房的部分，以山洞庫房來講，因為山洞庫房的溼度比較高，我們讓它恆溫恆濕的費電會比較高，我們希望未來山洞庫房的物件通通搬出來標準庫房，所以去處理這部分也會產生淨零減碳的效果。我想我們要從各個方面，其實不是一項工作，而是每一項工作都要去檢討。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，沒錯，因為文化部也有頒布過文化產業淨零的指引，其中就建議可以採用建築能源管理系統。我看了一下，未來在北院的擴整建當中，應該也會陸續地增加相關的系統，所以我們很支持你們新故宮計畫擴整建這部分，希望也能夠如期的進行。","另外要跟院長提醒的是，臺北市去年通過一個新的自治條例，就是臺北市淨零排放管理自治條例，針對跟台電公司簽的用電契約，如果用量是在800瓩以上的，未來市府會要求必須要有發電以及儲電的設備。我們故宮的契約容量是3,000瓩，請問目前你們有沒有依據這個法規的修訂在進行相關的準備？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為規定是要4,000瓩，所以北部院區的3,000瓩還沒有達到門檻。南部院區的話，基本上我剛剛講，南院已經是綠建築跟智慧建築，另外南院也設置了南二停車場，南二停車場是一個太陽能板停車場，所以雖然沒有辦法自主用電，因為我們是跟廠商簽約，錢都是廠商付的，就是回饋……"],["吳委員沛憶：對，院長，你現在講的是發電，但是因為它這個法……"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，儲電跟發電。"],["吳委員沛憶：也包含到儲電，所以我現在要提醒的就是，法規雖然今年上路，但是我們的用量……它有輔導期，應該是在116年之後，但是因為我們故宮北院又具有文資身分，你如果要做相關的設施，包括用地評估等等，恐怕都要及早開始規劃。所以這部分我要提醒你們，從今年開始恐怕就要啟動，關於未來北院跟南院發電跟儲能相關設施的規劃了，這個院長可不可以做到？"],["蕭院長宗煌：南院一直都有納入規劃，包括新的南院二館，就是國寶館；北院的話，因為它具有文資身分，它是歷史建築，也是文化景觀，所以在做這部分的時候，我們還要去尋求法規上的調適性，但是未來如果行政園區有工程的話，我們一定會把自主能源納入考量。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，相關的進度也請再讓我們了解。","另外要跟院長關心的是「故宮好客」，你們去年12月推出臺灣旅遊攻略觀光手冊，我覺得非常好，因為去年在這裡我也跟院長建議過，我認為故宮是國家第一級博物館，應該要擔任觀光導流，甚至是串聯我們國內的博物館群加上在地景點很重要的一個引擎，所以我看到你們推出這個觀光手冊，我非常的肯定。但是我細看了一下裡面，你們推薦的北跟南總共10條的旅遊攻略路線，我覺得以臺北市的路線跟推薦的景點來說，豐富度非常的不足，例如手冊裡面推薦的故宮北院附近的景點有5個，只有5個，然後臺北市你們其他推薦的點總共14個裡面只有1間博物館、6間餐廳、1個賣店跟6個景點。其實如果以現在臺北市，例如臺北市政府觀傳局已經有臺北市100條文化小旅行的路線，以既有的路線來講，一條旅遊路線裡面可以推薦的景點甚至在地的店家應當可以更加豐富，所以我想請問一下，我們這個旅遊路線有沒有跟臺北市政府觀傳局或是文化局進行相關的討論？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們就是跟臺北市觀傳局合作的，當然因為故宮第一次辦理「故宮好客」旅遊手冊，未來如果再版的話我們再來精進。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，我想未來我們也可以召集臺北市觀傳局還有文化局跟故宮一起討論，因為我認為故宮推薦的路線有一個很重要的責任，就是要去推廣臺北市的博物館群。以我的選區中正區來說，這是臺北市博物館最綿密的地區，像你們推薦的路線裡面有一個臺博館，就是鐵道部園區，院長也應當看過這個路線，問題是光是臺博館就有四個分館，你們卻只推薦了一間，我覺得相當的可惜，所以這部分後續我們再來跟你們進行相關的討論，好不好？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，謝謝委員。因為基本上來講我們有很多策略聯盟，包括聯票的方式，雖然沒有呈現在這上面，可是我們跟北部很多館所都有聯票的合作。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，應當是有機會可以一起呈現在這個觀光手冊裡面的。好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員的質詢，請院長回座。","接下來有請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-9","speakers":["葛如鈞","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","林宜瑾","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","范雲","郭昱晴","陳冠廷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林沛祥","張雅琳"],"page_start":315,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00007"}}},{"id":"160772","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160772","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423690c798f73092b5514693dd611367b4dddc2100e055cb5940366d4deb5ed01280b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:19:52 - 10:32:30","影片長度":"00:12:38","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查「保險法」15案：\n一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案。【後3案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第一百二十三條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T10:19:52+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:32:30+08:00","duration":758,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":5.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.527843750000001,"end":9.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.35409375,"end":21.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.99096875,"end":13.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.614093750000002,"end":28.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.684718750000002,"end":31.620968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.637843750000002,"end":32.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.68409375,"end":34.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.979093750000004,"end":39.197843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.400343750000005,"end":46.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.66971875,"end":51.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.752843750000004,"end":52.377218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.29284375,"end":54.908468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.76534375,"end":53.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.009718750000005,"end":55.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.02659375,"end":55.617218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.836593750000006,"end":58.064093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.376593750000005,"end":56.815343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.77721875,"end":58.047218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.064093750000005,"end":58.165343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.165343750000005,"end":58.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.16096875,"end":67.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.17659375000001,"end":73.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.79159375,"end":74.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.55096875000001,"end":76.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.30159375000001,"end":85.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.57034375,"end":90.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.95346875,"end":94.76721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.78409375000001,"end":94.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.88534375,"end":98.63159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.18846875000001,"end":104.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.12034375,"end":103.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.04409375,"end":105.51659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.71909375000001,"end":110.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.93346875,"end":115.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.96221875,"end":122.79659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.74159375,"end":149.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.98159375,"end":127.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.09971875000001,"end":127.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.44971875000002,"end":128.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.48346875000001,"end":128.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.58471875,"end":128.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.14721875,"end":177.35346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.74596875,"end":178.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.97346875000002,"end":180.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.61471875,"end":180.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.86346875,"end":181.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.25159375,"end":189.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.17471875,"end":187.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.26284375,"end":193.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.97534375,"end":194.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.56596875000002,"end":199.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.16846875000002,"end":206.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.66534375,"end":211.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.17096875000001,"end":213.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.85409375,"end":219.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.90471875,"end":214.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.04721875,"end":235.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.37846875000002,"end":237.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.59721875000002,"end":245.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.52471875,"end":243.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.04346875000002,"end":247.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.57034375,"end":249.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.70534375000003,"end":252.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.38409375,"end":252.32909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.58221875,"end":255.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.80159375000002,"end":252.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.99096875000004,"end":259.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.50971875,"end":316.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.11659375,"end":262.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.33846875,"end":273.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.85846875000004,"end":294.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.23034375000003,"end":327.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.30471875,"end":344.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.78721875,"end":353.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.20346875,"end":361.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":363.97409375,"end":381.11909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.24971875,"end":393.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.76284375,"end":401.30159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":401.30159375000005,"end":413.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.99596875000003,"end":446.40846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":446.93159375000005,"end":458.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.11971875,"end":473.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":473.57721875000004,"end":479.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.53846875000005,"end":481.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":482.30159375000005,"end":484.76534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.46159375,"end":519.5615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.04221875,"end":495.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.13534375,"end":558.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.42471875,"end":568.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.7690937500001,"end":592.4953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.6640937500001,"end":597.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.1653437500001,"end":612.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.3953437499999,"end":631.4428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.17346875,"end":627.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.79721875,"end":647.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.57534375,"end":649.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.53284375,"end":664.2140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":658.9153437500001,"end":659.2865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.30721875,"end":662.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.5390937500001,"end":691.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.76159375,"end":670.8290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.70346875,"end":693.2390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.4922187500001,"end":708.8484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":701.86221875,"end":702.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.5065937500001,"end":738.0590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":737.60346875,"end":737.9240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":738.0590937500001,"end":746.5134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":744.8259687500001,"end":745.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":745.70346875,"end":745.7709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":746.17596875,"end":748.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.82971875,"end":748.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":748.96034375,"end":751.79534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.53,"end":9.431,"text":"還有銀行局銅局長還有我們司法院那個毛法官好請彭主委銅局長還有毛法官"},{"start":11.583,"end":34.567,"text":"我首先先請教我們的銀行局局長最近就是說在這個以你的工作經驗裡頭自然人的憑證最直接最方便的一個方式你自己親身感受到了是什麼是一個自然人憑證是最好用的"},{"start":35.047,"end":50.737,"text":"是 跟委員報告在數位存款方面它有分三類的存款那自然人憑證它是第一類存款理論上它的安全性是最高的它安全性是最高的好 局長你把它用你自己本身使用過自然人憑證嗎你有沒有自然人憑證"},{"start":51.818,"end":75.734,"text":"有那你最常用在哪裡報稅報稅是最好用的好現在你們把就是我們的八大公股行庫把這個治安人憑證就是陸續我們把它暫停了因為為什麼你們認為治安人憑證他可能成為詐騙集團的一個工具他會成為一個警示的一個賬戶"},{"start":77.375,"end":98.459,"text":"那如果我們用這樣治標不治本的方式這樣去圍堵這個把它暫停自然人憑證的話這個方式好嗎我請那個主委來回答這個問題到底我們金管會對於自然人憑證把它暫停了這一個測試到底是好還是不好"},{"start":99.352,"end":122.527,"text":"當然就是因為這是遇到問題解決問題的一種方法但是就是說我們現階段先尊重各個金融機構他們對風險的判斷但是比如說我們常講說我們在金融監理上我們常鼓勵我們金融機構不可以做完全去風險化的業務這會影響到很多的那個正常的營運活動比如說"},{"start":123.786,"end":138.042,"text":"我不讓高速公路車子上去自然不會有車禍但是它也喪失了運輸的功能反而你要好好去想一件事情就是說自然平正在執行的過程當中有什麼東西我沒辦法管控的這些人我才把它做一個阻擋"},{"start":138.863,"end":157.248,"text":"那當然現在他們可能還沒有找到原因我想這部分確實也看到一些問題但是我們會針對這個問題請他們好好去思考一下怎麼樣能夠橫平那主委有沒有有一個就是說你看你五月份陸續你還有八大工股行庫還要再加進來了要把它停止了"},{"start":157.708,"end":181.647,"text":"好 這個要停止多久那你們就是有設定一個期限如果就是說在這個半年的期限還是三個月的期限裡頭其實它已經是就是這一個警示的帳號它這個狀況變少了我們要把它恢復了有沒有這樣子的一個就是準備跟情況是 那個童局長有一個他的實務的作法跟我們報告是 跟我們報告"},{"start":182.327,"end":205.8,"text":"那這個部分剛才如同我跟委員報告第一類的帳戶用自然人憑證這個是最安全的那銀行現在遇到的情境是詐團騙民眾把自然人憑證交付給他那現在的一個問題點是在於說我們在進行第一類帳戶的時候並沒有採視訊所以現在八大行戶我們大概初步跟他溝通未來可以補強比方說透過視訊的方式"},{"start":206.28,"end":224.177,"text":"那增強他們的風險控管能力之後呢事實上這個陸陸續續都會解開來補上視訊的一個查證因為過去那個自然憑證在使用上他的安全性理論上適同本人那因為現在等於是詐團把這個自然憑證都騙到手了"},{"start":224.937,"end":251.502,"text":"那現在未來可能就是導向就是說如果是不是才開用這個自然憑證再加上視訊確認是本人的這種方式你用視訊來查證的時候這個多久來執行呢這個部分因為會涉及到銀行系統整合的問題所以我們會再跟相關銀行來討論總是有一個預計的時間盡快的時間大概多久盡快時間會找銀行來開會造成大家很多的一個不方便是"},{"start":252.842,"end":272.758,"text":"大概應該有個期限 半年啊 半年有沒有機會好 我們往這個目標來走 那也跟委員報告 因為第三類障礙事件那個主委 我想就是說在上個月那個行政院已經通過了那個金管會的這個保險法的一個修正草案那在我也那個召開了那個公聽會"},{"start":274.099,"end":292.612,"text":"那相信應該是會經過了社會大眾普遍的一個討論那也達成一個初步的共識那今天保險法這個草案的一個審查其實詳細的來看的話我想今晚會已經做了很多那個周全的一個這個準備了"},{"start":294.793,"end":310.699,"text":"這個優關人民的權利的保險法的一個修正其實我們都知道就是說對社會大眾影響局劇非常的大那陳磊斯堡委員剛才特別的就是說針對的就是說這一個現有的現有的超過這個100萬件的這個案件在在這個這個現階段裡頭那"},{"start":317.29,"end":342.475,"text":"我剛才司法委員一直在追問你說到底有多久的時間多久的時間可以來完成就是處理全部的這個案件那你一直在講的就是說你這個半年修法通過了沒有問題可是後面是司法司法的一個那個就是這個程序的一個問題那好那我請教一下那個司法院那個那個"},{"start":345.055,"end":360.875,"text":"馬法官那如果我們修法通過了以後你們這邊有多久可以來解決這些剩下來的一個案件如果修法通過了你剩下來的案件就不多啦他可能剩下兩三成那這兩三成你需要多久的時間啊"},{"start":364.208,"end":380.863,"text":"委員長 主席早這邊想要向委員報告的是說我們這次的修法雖然有排除掉部分的這個保險金額及種類但是在這個執行端他收到案件的時候他是還是會收到案件在想要執行實務的時候案件是"},{"start":382.301,"end":385.322,"text":"你這個行政程序都跑了一輪了以後你覺得你需要多久的時間可以把後續的這些案子處理掉"},{"start":402.689,"end":417.985,"text":"因為在查詢之後我們才有辦法知道說有些案件有些保險類型是沒有辦法執行的也就是說我們可能要實際上在修法後來觀察說在保險執行的速度上所以你們大概有一個預計的時間嘛因為你們會抓一個模擬的一個流程嘛"},{"start":418.285,"end":446.218,"text":"就是新的案子再進來然後再經過你們的審查那這樣子大概需要多少的時間因為你知道這一次的修法其實我們就是要解決很多的一個社會問題因為這個存了一百多萬件的這個案子在這個地方如果我們今天修法沒有辦法給社會大眾一個比較明確的一個交代的話那這個好像是所有我們的努力就缺了那麼一腳了"},{"start":446.997,"end":473.379,"text":"是這邊向委員報告在這次保險法修法之後我們預估案件的處理流程速度會變快但是因為實際上到底有多少的這個可以被免除執行的案件的這個比例所以有沒有辦法半年內就是說就是回到那個司法的這個體系裡頭我們有在大概可以就是掌握一個六個月八個月把你們後續的這些行政程序就是把它處理完是"},{"start":474.399,"end":480.364,"text":"我們這方面我們可能還要再回去做評估那你之前都沒有評估 沒有評估還來"},{"start":482.61,"end":507.079,"text":"我們有評估我們的人力那你都知道我們在修法修法大家下了那麼多的一個努力了好謝謝馬法官把這個問題帶回去這個真的快速的來評估那好 主委還是要跟你再探討就是說我們從保化中心的一個統計就是國人在人壽保險跟年金保險裡頭通常我們大概都是每一個人身上都會有2.3"},{"start":510.341,"end":534.81,"text":"2.63張的一個人壽險那這次修正有關強制執行的部分其實還是要回來跟那個主委做一個探討就是說那我們還是覺得就是這個投保利如果就是到這個人壽險的投保利在這張圖裡頭他有特別那個就是跟大家做一個那個介紹那如果"},{"start":535.47,"end":557.039,"text":"那個強制保單的一個額度那跟最低生活的一個限度其實就是要跟主委探討的就是說還是很多委員跟你探討就是說如果用每一個地區每一個人最低的一個生活會的1.2倍來計算這個三個月的金額那這個對其他除了台北市以外的這個"},{"start":558.56,"end":586.386,"text":"保險人是那個不公平的就顯然他有很明顯的一個城鄉的一個差距不知道主委怎麼看這個議題呢這個也是我在接觸這個修法的時候才知道我們現在強制執行就是按照這個標準來做所以當時我們只是在直接嫁接這個強制執行的概念當我們經過這一輪的公聽以後還有各個委員的指證以後呢"},{"start":586.986,"end":611.785,"text":"就剛剛委員也提到公聽會後我們回去也做很多的檢討很多的這些討論比如說針對這個額度我們基於簡正辨明剛剛也提到剛剛委員也有講到就是說我們怎麼樣能夠簡化這個認定的標準上次也有人提說是不是就以台北市或是最高的作為一個標準我想這個可以來做一個解決大家各個委員提案的一些的問題我想這是一個可以思考的方向"},{"start":612.485,"end":630.702,"text":"那你想想看嘛 這個城鄉的差距就在這個地方如果我以這一張圖來看的話 我們台南才55.854那台北市竟然是73,365那這個台南人一定是不服氣啦因為保單 這個保惠都是一樣的啊 怎麼會是"},{"start":631.843,"end":645.517,"text":"我想那個當時強制執行法應該也是有他自己的考量才訂出這個啦齁那只是說我們保險法現在單獨立法齁我們也不希望說這樣增加整個很高的社會成本所以我覺得這部分我們剛才提到說我們對這個也是"},{"start":647.879,"end":674.91,"text":"開放、文明、尊重我們的審查所以我請教你去年的這個草案的一個草案的一個豁免額度是多少為什麼跟這一次我因為你又做了修正嘛去年去年是做了十萬塊的那個是不是十萬塊這個去年預告的時候呢他是用各種不同的標準去列示他用列舉的比如說有些用嫌種別有些用己父別那有些用比如說他的年金的己父的樣態還用"},{"start":676.631,"end":697.267,"text":"比如說財產保險把它排除這個就等於說在實務執行上未來可能會更為複雜因為我們現在實務上的商品不是用我們法律名詞在做歸類比如就像各位常常會看到你很多的商品叫年年如意什麼終身受險或是什麼保險它很難去歸類在我們的法律條文上所以認定上就會產生很大的困擾"},{"start":697.967,"end":708.316,"text":"所以我們才會把它重新整理用一個最基本的概念來做所以剛才我們標準的部分大家集中在標準我覺得標準可以大家來尋求一個共識"},{"start":709.554,"end":737.156,"text":"好我想這個主委政策是不換管而換不均所以就是說我們都會聽到了很多很多的一個聲音那在最後又請金管會讓民眾去了解就是說這個解約金額度這個很明確是就是一個很明確的一個額度那讓金管會就是堅持這個對台南人不利的這一個豁免標準可以把它就是取消掉拉平謝謝"},{"start":738.858,"end":746.831,"text":"最後我絕對沒有針對國人任何地區有什麼不公平對待的想法我們希望解決問題謝謝謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝賴昭偉 謝謝彭主委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":429,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時19分）謝謝主席，有請金管會主委、銀行局童局長及司法院毛法官。"],["主席：請彭主委、童局長及毛法官。"],["賴委員惠員：首先，我先請教……"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝主委。先請教銀行局局長，以你的工作經驗中，自然人憑證是最直接、最方便的一個方式，你自己親身感受到什麼樣的自然人憑證是最好用的？"],["童局長政彰：跟委員報告，在數位存款方面，它有分三類的存款，自然人憑證是第一類存款，理論上它的安全性是最高的……"],["賴委員惠員：它的安全性是最高的？"],["童局長政彰：它安全性是最高的，對！"],["賴委員惠員：好，局長，你自己本身使用過自然人憑證嗎？你有沒有自然人憑證？"],["童局長政彰：有！"],["賴委員惠員：有嘛？你最常用在哪裡？"],["童局長政彰：是。報稅。"],["賴委員惠員：報稅是最好用的。好，現在八大公股行庫把自然人憑證陸續暫停了，因為你們認為自然人憑證可能成為詐騙集團的工具，它會成為一個警示帳戶，如果我們用治標不治本的方式，這樣去圍堵、暫停自然人憑證的話，這個方式好嗎？我請主委來回答這個問題，到底金管會對於把自然人憑證暫停的措施，到底是好還是不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然這是因為遇到問題，解決問題的一種方法。"],["賴委員惠員：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們現階段先尊重各個金融機構對風險的判斷，比如說，我們常講在金融監理上，我們常鼓勵金融機構不可以做完全去風險化的業務，這會影響到很多正常的營運活動，比如說，我不讓高速公路有車子上去，自然不會有車禍，但是它也喪失了運輸的功能，反而你要好好去想一件事情，自然人憑證在執行的過程當中，有什麼東西是我沒辦法管控的，這些人我才把他做一個阻擋，當然現在他們可能還沒有找到原因，我想這部分確實也看到一些問題，但是我們會針對這個問題，請他們好好去思考一下怎麼樣能夠衡平。"],["賴委員惠員：好，主委，你看在5月份，陸續八大公股行庫還要再加進來、要把它停止了，這個要停止多久？你們是否有設定一個期限，如果在這個半年的期限還是三個月的期限裡，警示的帳號這種狀況變少了，我們要把它恢復了，有沒有這樣的準備跟計畫？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，童局長有一個實務的作法，請他跟委員報告。"],["賴委員惠員：請童局長。"],["童局長政彰：跟委員報告，這個部分如同剛才我跟委員報告的，第一類的帳戶用自然人憑證，這個是最安全的，銀行現在遇到的情境是詐團騙民眾把自然人憑證交付給他，現在的一個問題點是在於，我們在進行第一類帳戶的時候，並沒有採視訊，所以我們大概初步跟八大行庫溝通，未來是可以補強，比方說，透過視訊的方式，增強他們的風險控管能力之後，事實上，這個陸陸續續都會解開來了。"],["賴委員惠員：補上視訊的一個查證，是不是？"],["童局長政彰：就是要視訊，因為過去自然人憑證在使用上它的安全性，理論上視同本人，現在等於是詐團把自然人憑證都騙到手了，未來可能會導向是否採用自然人憑證，再加上視訊，確認是本人的這種方式，來增加風險管理。"],["賴委員惠員：使用視訊來查證，這個多久來執行呢？"],["童局長政彰：這個部分因為會涉及到銀行系統整合的問題，所以我們會再跟相關的銀行來討論。"],["賴委員惠員：大概多久？總是有一個預計的時間。"],["童局長政彰：我們會在儘快的時間……"],["賴委員惠員：儘快的時間大概是多久？"],["童局長政彰：儘快的時間會找銀行來開會。"],["賴委員惠員：因為這個已經造成大家很多的不方便，你大概應該有一個期限？半年呢？半年有沒有機會？"],["童局長政彰：好，我們往這個目標來走，也跟委員報告，因為第三類帳戶……"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝局長。主委，在上個月行政院已經通過金管會保險法的修正草案，我也召開了公聽會，相信應該經過社會大眾普遍地討論，也達成一個初步的共識，今天對保險法草案的審查，其實詳細來看的話，我想金管會已經做很多周全的準備了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["賴委員惠員：攸關人民權利的保險法修正，我們都知道對社會大眾的影響非常的大，賴士葆委員剛才一直追問你的是，在現有超過100萬件案件的階段裡，到底需要多久的時間可以處理完全部的案件，你一直在講的就是這個半年修法通過了，沒有問題，而後面是司法程序的問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["賴委員惠員：好，那我請教一下司法院毛法官，如果我們修法通過了以後，你們這邊需要多久可以解決這些剩下來的案件？如果修法通過，剩下來的案件就不多了啦，可能剩下兩、三成，這兩、三成你需要多久的時間呢？"],["毛法官彥程：委員早、主席早。這邊要向委員報告的是，我們這次的修法雖然有排除掉部分保險的金額及種類，但是執行端還是會收到案件，在強制執行的實務上，案件是債權人來聲請，他的聲請可能是要執行所有的壽險，也就是說，這個案件進來之後，還是要經過一定查詢的時間，然後……。"],["賴委員惠員：好，這個行政程序都跑一輪了以後，你覺得你需要多久的時間可以把後續的這些案子處理掉呢？"],["毛法官彥程：因為在查詢之後，我們才有辦法知道有些保險類型是沒有辦法執行的，也就是說，我們可能要實際上在修法後再來觀察在保險執行速度上的減少……"],["賴委員惠員：所以你們應該會有一個預計的時間嘛！因為你們會抓一個模擬的流程嘛，就是新的案子進來，然後再經過你們的審查，這樣子大概需要多少的時間？因為我們這一次的修法其實就是要解決很多的社會問題，因為現階段有一百多萬件的案子，如果今天我們修法沒有辦法給社會大眾一個比較明確的交代的話，好像所有我們的努力就缺了一角了。"],["毛法官彥程：是，這邊向委員報告，在這次保險法修法之後，我們預估案件的處理流程速度會變快，但是因為實際上到底有多少可以被免除執行的案件的比例……"],["賴委員惠員：所以有沒有辦法在半年內回到司法的體系裡頭？大概可以掌握六個月、八個月的時間，把你們後續這一些行政程序處理完？"],["毛法官彥程：報告委員，這方面我們可能還要再回去做評估，因為我們先前是……"],["賴委員惠員：那你之前都沒有評估？沒有評估還來！"],["毛法官彥程：我們有評估我們的人力，然後……"],["賴委員惠員：你就知道我們在修法，這個修法大家做了那麼多的努力了啊！好，謝謝毛法官，請把這個問題帶回去，真的要快速地來評估。","主委，還是要跟你再探討，根據保發中心的統計，國人在人壽保險跟年金保險方面，我們每一個人身上大概會有2.63張的人壽險保單。這次修正有關強制執行的部分，其實還是要回來跟主委做一個探討，針對人壽險及年金險的投保率，在這張圖上有特別框起來讓大家看一下，而強制保單的額度跟最低生活的限度，就是要跟主委探討的部分，其實也有很多委員跟你探討了，就是如果用每個地區每人每月最低生活費1.2倍計算的三個月金額為標準，這對其他除臺北市以外的保險人是不公平的，因為顯然有很明顯的城鄉差距，不知道主委怎麼看這個議題呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，這個也是我在接觸修法的時候才知道我們現在的強制執行是按照這個標準來做，當時我們只是直接嫁接這個強制執行的概念。當然，經過這一輪的公聽及各個委員的指正以後，剛才委員也有提到，在公聽會後，我們回去也做很多的檢討與討論，比如針對這個額度，我們基於簡政便民，剛才吳委員也有講到的就是我們要怎麼樣能夠簡化這個認定的標準，上次也有人提到是不是就以臺北市或是最高的作為一個標準，我想這也是一個可以解決各個委員提案所提一些問題的思考方向。"],["賴委員惠員：是嘛，你想想看，城鄉的差距就在這個地方，如果以這一張圖來看的話，我們臺南才5萬5,854元，而臺北市居然是7萬3,365元，這樣臺南人一定是不服氣的，因為保單的保費都是一樣的啊，怎麼會是……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想當時強制執行法應該也是有它自己的考量才訂出這個標準啦，只是說現在保險法單獨立法，我們也不希望增加很高的社會成本，所以剛才有提到了，我們對這個部分也是開放的，我們也尊重審查的結果。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，我請教你，去年這個草案的豁免額度是多少？為什麼這一次……因為你又做了修正嘛，去年的數字是不是10萬塊？"],["彭主任委員金隆：去年預告的時候是用各種不同的標準去列示，是用列舉的，比如說有些用險種別、有些用給付別，有些是用年金給付的樣態，比如財產保險把它排除，這個等於在實務執行上未來可能會更為複雜，因為我們現在實務上的商品並不是用我們的法律名詞在做歸類，就像各位常常會看到的，很多商品叫年年如意終身壽險或是什麼什麼保險，這很難去歸類在我們的法律條文上，所以認定上就會產生很大的困擾，因此我們才會把它重新整理，用最基本的概念來做，所以……"],["賴委員惠員：好，我想……"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛委員這樣講，我們的標準部分，剛剛大家很多問題都是集中在標準，我覺得標準的部分大家可以來尋求一個共識啦。"],["賴委員惠員：好，主委，政策是不患寡而患不均，我們都會聽到很多很多的聲音，最後也要請金管會應該要讓民眾了解，這個解約金額度就是一個很明確的額度，也請金管會不要堅持這個對臺南人不利的豁免標準，可以把它取消掉、拉平。謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我絕對沒有針對國人在任何地區有什麼不公平對待的想法啦，我們希望解決問題，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝賴召委，謝謝彭主委。"],["主席（賴委員惠員）：接著請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","黃珊珊","羅智強","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","黃國昌","陳玉珍","王世堅","林思銘","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","徐富癸","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「保險法」15案：一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員\n王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人\n分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案；二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第\n一百二十三條之一條文草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等\n19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百\n七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案","agenda_id":"1144301_00006"}}},{"id":"160771","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160771","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423696c10ff22fb8493c83c0ba1d923b4b8dbc2100e055cb59403433ed581e36198385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:17:52 - 10:28:45","影片長度":"00:10:53","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T10:17:52+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:28:45+08:00","duration":653,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.586593750000002,"end":11.117843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.387843750000002,"end":11.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.04909375,"end":32.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.118468750000005,"end":35.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.95784375,"end":36.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.75096875,"end":38.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.20659375,"end":72.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.18846875,"end":111.86159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.41846875,"end":120.29909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.31596875000001,"end":139.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.65346875,"end":120.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.11971875,"end":134.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.44034375,"end":134.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.84534375,"end":134.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.70971875,"end":173.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.73784375,"end":148.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.87659375,"end":151.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.84221875,"end":155.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.99534375000002,"end":194.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.85034375,"end":183.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.85284375,"end":201.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.72096875000003,"end":203.99909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.13409375,"end":219.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.96909375,"end":207.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.33409375000002,"end":227.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.13471875000002,"end":240.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.92159375000003,"end":249.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.96659375000002,"end":256.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.42971875,"end":259.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.60659375,"end":258.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.92284375,"end":265.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.37346875000003,"end":270.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.42409375,"end":265.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.48284375000003,"end":267.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.23346875000004,"end":285.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.77721875000003,"end":274.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.02846875,"end":294.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.41096875,"end":324.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.08159375,"end":324.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.97596875,"end":325.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.12784375,"end":325.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.16159375,"end":325.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.21221875000003,"end":325.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.85346875000005,"end":325.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.87034375,"end":331.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.10159375,"end":343.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.43721875,"end":346.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.74471875,"end":349.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.85409375,"end":355.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.31284375,"end":389.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.37721875,"end":376.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.49534375,"end":376.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.48909375000005,"end":393.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.69096875,"end":397.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.40346875,"end":399.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.32284375,"end":413.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.40096875,"end":419.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.69159375000004,"end":417.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.37471875,"end":451.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.69784375,"end":431.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.77471875000003,"end":460.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.00534375,"end":478.43721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.11034375,"end":464.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.12909375000004,"end":487.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.06034375,"end":509.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.18346875000003,"end":511.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.09034375000005,"end":554.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.3884687500001,"end":520.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.1515937500001,"end":525.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.22284375,"end":527.8134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.45471875,"end":529.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.37471875,"end":556.7709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.9228437500001,"end":557.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.25159375,"end":560.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.2890937500001,"end":579.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.91659375,"end":570.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.05096875,"end":574.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.90659375,"end":580.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.05846875,"end":604.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.12909375,"end":588.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.07409375,"end":588.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.20909375,"end":588.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.52534375,"end":589.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.69596875,"end":636.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.99471875,"end":637.3828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.9734687499999,"end":640.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.99409375,"end":649.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.93784375,"end":650.4609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.4609687500001,"end":651.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.8784687500001,"end":651.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.5534687500001,"end":653.2790937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.161,"end":32.568,"text":"謝謝主席我想請問農業部陳部長陳部長部長好非常感謝主席今天特別安排動保法的一個修法的審查那我想說先請教一下部長你知道全球第一個動物餐廳寵物餐廳在什麼地方嗎"},{"start":34.184,"end":55.678,"text":"全球我不是很清楚因為這問題很小可是因為全球第一個寵物餐廳其實在台灣在台北士林它充分反映了台灣人就是很有愛心然後也很有創意的一個狀態那在寵物餐廳的時候其實讓很多動物它可以陪伴人一起在"},{"start":56.318,"end":84.895,"text":"吃飯喝茶享受這個部分所以這個部分我覺得某個部分也是台灣很有創意的一個表現那事實上現在其實有很多寵物餐廳不只是貓狗部分還包括有兔子、貓頭鷹、山羊等等很多種不同的寵物餐廳不過因為從那個2019年COVID-19開始的時候那國際上對於這樣的一個所謂的動物餐廳其實也開始有一些的一個反省跟調整像韓國他們在2023年就直接"},{"start":85.675,"end":111.59,"text":"就是開始禁止這樣的一個動物餐廳那他們考量點是因為人畜共通傳染病的問題那英國他們對於所謂的一個貓咪餐廳他們也在重新再做一個檢討那我想說請教一下部長在這個部分就是說我們目前台灣的這個所謂的動物餐廳這些動物餐廳他們需不需要去申請動物展演場所"},{"start":112.889,"end":137.948,"text":"我跟你們報告這要分不同的情況那基本上如果在餐廳有展演的行為的話那是一定要的那有一些特定的你如果在餐廳裡面特定的時間特定的時段然後讓寵物在那邊做一些活動那這個就需要做登記但是有一些家裡有養貓或養狗牠可能就放在那邊那那個東西就不需要申請"},{"start":139.429,"end":156.235,"text":"所以說你在這個報告當中你有特別提到說目前台灣有95家的一個那個動物展演場所裡面有所謂的寵物餐廳或動物餐廳在裡面嗎?裡面有部分的動物餐廳是在裡面的那我想說要特別提到這狀態就是說因為針對整個龍出宮傳染病這樣子的一個問題當中的時候"},{"start":164.858,"end":194.438,"text":"我想我們也希望針對這樣子的一個寵物餐廳因為確實就像部長剛剛提到的因為有很多熱愛寵物的店主他們很多時候就把家裡的寵物帶到工作場合去那可能不一定是我們所謂的一個展演的場所可是我們希望這部分能夠加以去規範因為這不只是對於整個動物的福利來說對於我們的一個公衛的問題也是一個很重要的部分"},{"start":195.298,"end":219.278,"text":"所以我們需要說整個農業部可以針對這部分的時候去進行進一步的一個去管理這部分有沒有問題我想謝謝委員的一個關心也提醒那我想後續就算他不需要許可的時候那我們也會去宣導去落實他的寵物的登記第一個登記登記以後他後面的這些疫苗的注射有沒有也會"},{"start":220.439,"end":248.944,"text":"接到我們的後面的管理的系統裡面去所以這個部分我們會去更關心這個人序共通的傳染病OK那我想說這是一個很好的狀態不過你剛剛特別提到說寵物可能針對貓狗的部分只是現在動物餐廳其實它很多元所以我接下來我想請教一下就是說部長就是說我們現在對於網路上面在販售活體寵物這個部分的時候有沒有特別的一個規範"},{"start":250.037,"end":269.856,"text":"如果你在網路販售寵物的時候你必須要有特種登記證要在你的網路的廣告欄裡面要有登記證的字號那因為所有的特種的寵物做寵物營業就要有申請那申請水果就有登記證你一定要有那個登記證你如果沒有那個登記證你就是違法"},{"start":270.407,"end":294.489,"text":"部長沒有問題 因為你特別提到特種寵物我們對於特寵的部分其實是有專法在管理的那對於異寵的部分 請問目前有沒有這樣的一個管理的準備很抱歉的 目前沒有 雖然目前沒有那你知道是不是現在我們在異寵的部分你知道在網路上面販售的種類有多少樣你知道嗎 多少物種你知道"},{"start":295.498,"end":325.178,"text":"一定很難 這具體數字大概都很少可是跟部長特別報告有一兩千種的一個異寵的狀態在網路上面販售這是媒體這邊報導出來的一個狀態所以表示說我們特寵其實有專法可是對異寵的部分其實完全沒有一個法可以去管的時候所以我這邊 因為今天是我們動保法的一個聲明我想針對這個部分我們農業部這邊會不會針對異寵的部分也會有準備要加以去規範去管理"},{"start":326.078,"end":346.146,"text":"我跟委員報告我們要處理異寵的這些這些管理的時候登記的時候第一個我們就會要進行寵物的分級分類的管理那分級分類有些是禁止的有一些在特定情況是許可的有些是一般性的那一般性的就可以回到特寵這邊來管理然後對於禁止的部分我們就不會讓他去做飼養"},{"start":346.766,"end":373.428,"text":"你說一般性的會回到特寵這邊來管理當你可以飼養的時候我們就會逐漸滾動到我們的特種這個業者裡面去管理針對這個部分部長因為針對這個部分可不可以有更具體的一個內容因為坦白說我最近碰到了很多的一個動保團體包括說他們防止虐待的一個動物團體這樣的協會那也碰到了很多異寵相關的業者"},{"start":376.81,"end":399.662,"text":"他們很多的一個協會一起來澄清這件事情他們有幾個訴求第一個希望說我們對於整個異寵的部分也能夠有更具體的一個法規的一個管理讓他們自己有一個很具體的一個遵循的一個方向那麼對於整個網路上面的一個異寵的一個販售的時候我們希望"},{"start":400.362,"end":418.819,"text":"能夠嚴加禁止因為現在很多異寵在網路上販售打廣告因為特寵可以那異寵在他們打廣告之後的時候呢很多的一個運輸的狀態很多的小動物都死在這運輸當中的過程因為語法沒有管"},{"start":419.6,"end":442.984,"text":"所以大家就隨便做都產生很多的一個亂象出來所以針對這個異蟲的部分的時候是不是可以請部長針對因為我知道異蟲的種類太多了像你剛剛也講到了一個有很多異蟲的狀態也分很多種可是我在想說我們還是必須要給他們有一個比較好的規範讓他們能夠有一個遵循的方向"},{"start":443.504,"end":450.759,"text":"那針對這部分的時候可不可以請農業部這邊加加油那針對異蟲的部分我們有更好的一個管制的一個規範出來"},{"start":452.263,"end":477.664,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒那您剛才講的就是說你如果有即時的合法登記證在網路購買那我們會有規範跟指引去要求它的運輸的條件我覺得這個蠻重要的那第二個部分針對異蟲的部分那我們現在持續在做溝通你也知道在異蟲裡面禁止飼養的部分前一陣子到的非常多的一些不同的聲音那我們持續在做溝通我想沒有"},{"start":479.165,"end":507.532,"text":"不能溝通的啦所以我想在這個部分如果沒有達到共識之前我們不會貿然的去做這個分級跟分類也就是大家有共識的情況之類的部長那我在想說因為針對這部分我們今天聊到這部分的時候就是針對整個網路的平台業者這個部分的時候我們也希望能夠強加管理跟要求如果在網路上面有一些不當的內容的時候我們希望政府有權力然後能夠要求這些平台業者下架"},{"start":508.172,"end":528.357,"text":"這個部分可不可以要求我們在這次修法就有納入了那這樣很好那另外一個部分就針對於比方說台灣人其實很有愛心可是呢也會發生很多虐待動物的一個行為發生所以針對這部分我們也希望能夠加強加重罰則所以這部分我們也都在做有在修法裡面"},{"start":529.417,"end":557.267,"text":"那最後一個部分我想針對有關於遊蕩犬的一個部分因為那個我看到就是部長你報告當中的時候針對遊蕩犬你也花了很多的一個篇幅那目前的時候我因為這個月的時候在新竹南寮地區的時候又發生遊蕩犬傷人的事件那我們農業部對於遊蕩犬傷人的統計有沒有一個全面性的一個去做一個"},{"start":559.629,"end":578.651,"text":"統計的一個狀態我想第一個我們能夠掌握現在遊蕩犬的數量比上次統計上次統計是15.9萬現在已經到了11.4萬所以遊蕩犬的數量是在下降但是至於說咬人的部分我們現在我手邊現在目前並沒有這個數據"},{"start":579.972,"end":602.986,"text":"OK 部長這就是我要特別講的狀態因為我們每兩年其實政府這邊會針對遊蕩犬的數量去做一個調查每兩年會調查一次那我發現其實教育部跟交通部他們都對於遊蕩犬跟人產生的一些衝突都有一些統計可是我們農業部主管反而沒有那我看你報告這邊有講到說"},{"start":605.787,"end":629.856,"text":"經統計媒體的報導的數量是減低的可是因為媒體報導不一定是每個案件都會出來所以我們希望能夠有官方的一個統計針對這部分然後能夠來好好來解決遊蕩犬相關的問題因為我發現你對遊蕩犬這邊你確實有些琢磨那我們也希望就是你這邊有提到說我們下一個階段要再增加就是各地方的一個收容量的問題"},{"start":631.256,"end":650.713,"text":"那我們也希望好好的去做那對於林菩薩這邊也能夠真正去落實好不好好 謝謝委員提醒我想針對這個遊盪犬攻擊人的事件我想我們會有重新做一個有系統的調查這樣的話才能夠掌握這樣的一個案件跟數據OK 好 謝謝部長好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":336,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時18分）謝謝主席，我想請教農業部陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。非常感謝主席今天特別安排動保法修正草案的審查，我想先請教一下部長，你知道全球第一個寵物餐廳是在什麼地方嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我不是很清楚。"],["鄭委員正鈐：沒關係，因為這個問題很小，其實全球第一個寵物餐廳是在臺灣，就是在臺北士林，它充分反映了臺灣人很有愛心也很有創意的狀態，在這個寵物餐廳裡面，很多動物可以陪伴主人一起吃飯、喝茶並享受，我覺得這也是臺灣一個很有創意的表現。事實上，現在有很多寵物餐廳，不只是貓、狗的部分，還包括兔子、貓頭鷹、山羊等等，有很多種不同的寵物餐廳。不過在2019年COVID-19疫情開始的時候，國際上對於這樣的動物餐廳其實也開始有一些反省跟調整，像韓國他們在2023年就直接開始禁止這樣的動物餐廳，他們的考量點是人畜共通傳染病的問題；像英國他們對於所謂的貓咪餐廳也有重新做一個檢討。我想請教一下部長，目前在我們臺灣有所謂的動物餐廳，這些動物餐廳需不需要去申請動物展演場所？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，這要分不同的情況，基本上，如果在餐廳有展演的行為，那是一定要的，如果餐廳在特定的時段讓寵物在那邊做一些活動，這個就需要做登記；但是有一些是家裡有養貓、養狗，他可能就是放在那邊，那種情形就不需要申請。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，你在這個報告當中有特別提到目前臺灣有95家動物展演場所，這裡面有所謂的寵物餐廳或動物餐廳嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：有，在裡面有。"],["鄭委員正鈐：在裡面有一部分是動物餐廳？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我要特別提到這個狀態，因為會有人畜共通傳染病這樣子的問題，所以我們希望針對寵物餐廳，因為確實就像部長剛剛提到的，有很多熱愛寵物的店主會把家裡的寵物帶到工作場合去，這不一定是我們所謂的展演場所，可是我們希望對這部分能夠加以規範，因為這不只是關係到整個動物的福利，對於我們的公衛問題也是一個很重要的部分，所以我們希望農業部可以針對這個部分進一步去管理，這部分有沒有問題？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的關心和提醒，我想後續就算這些情形不需要許可，我們也會去宣導並落實寵物的登記，第一個是要登記，在登記以後，之後疫苗的注射也會接到我們的管理系統裡面去，所以對這個部分我們會更關心這些人畜共通的傳染病。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我想這是一個很好的狀態，不過你剛剛特別提到寵物可能是針對貓狗的部分，其實現在動物餐廳很多元，所以我接下來想請教部長，我們現在對於在網路上販售活體寵物這個部分有沒有一個特別的規範？"],["陳部長駿季：如果你在網路販售寵物，你必須要有特種登記證，在你的網路廣告欄裡面要有登記證的字號，因為對特種寵物做寵物營業就要申請，申請經許可就會有登記證，你一定要有登記證，你如果沒有登記證，你就是違法。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。好，部長，因為你特別提到特種寵物，我們對於特寵的部分其實是有專法在管理的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那對於異寵的部分目前有沒有這樣管理的準備？"],["陳部長駿季：很抱歉，目前沒有。"],["鄭委員正鈐：關於異寵的部分，你知道現在在網路上面販售的種類有多少樣嗎？你知道有多少物種嗎？這個很難回答，因為具體的數字大概都很少。可是我要特別跟部長報告，有一、兩千種的異寵在網路上面販售，這是媒體報導出來的狀態，表示特寵其實有專法，可是針對異寵卻完全沒有一個法可以去管，因為今天是動保法的審理，針對這個部分，農業部會不會針對異寵的部分也有所準備，要加以規範管理？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們要處理異寵的管理及登記時，第一個就要進行寵物的分級、分類管理，有一些是禁止的，有一些在特定情況是許可的，有些是一般性的，一般性的就可以回到特寵這邊來管理，對於禁止的部分，我們就不會讓牠去做飼養。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你說一般性的會回到特寵這邊來管理？"],["陳部長駿季：當牠可以被飼養的時候，我們就會逐漸滾動到由特寵業者這邊去管理。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，針對這個部分可不可以有更具體的內容？坦白說，我最近碰到很多的動保團體，包括防止虐待的動物團體、協會，也碰到了很多異寵的相關業者，很多協會一起來陳情這件事情，他們有幾個訴求，第一個，他們希望對於異寵也能夠有更具體的法規管理，讓他們有一個很具體的遵循方向；再者，對於網路上的異寵販售，我們希望能夠嚴加禁止，現在有很多異寵在網路上販售、打廣告，因為特寵是可以的，那麼異寵在他們打廣告之後就有很多的運輸，很多小動物都死在運輸的過程中，因為於法沒有管，所以大家就隨便做，產生很多的亂象出來，所以針對異寵的部分，因為我知道異寵的種類太多了，你剛才也講到異寵有分很多種，可是我想我們還是必須要給他們一個比較好的規範，讓他們能夠有一個遵循的方向。針對這個部分，可不可以請農業部這邊加加油，讓異寵能夠有一個更好的管制規範出來？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的提醒，關於您剛才講的，如果有合法登記證在網路購買，那我們會有規範跟指引去要求他們的運輸條件，我覺得這個蠻重要的；第二個，針對異寵的部分，我們現在持續在做溝通，你也知道在異寵禁止飼養的部分，前一陣子造成非常多不同的聲音……"],["鄭委員正鈐：是。"],["陳部長駿季：我們持續在做溝通，我想沒有不能溝通的，在這個部分沒有達到共識之前，我們不會貿然的去做分級跟分類，一定是大家有共識的情況之下……"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為我們今天聊到的是針對整個網路的平臺業者，我們也希望能夠強加管理跟要求，如果在網路上面有一些不當的內容時，希望政府有權力能夠要求這些平臺業者下架，這個部分可不可以要求？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們在這次修法就有納入了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這樣很好，另外一個部分，臺灣人其實很有愛心，可是也有很多虐待動物的行為發生，針對這部分，我們也希望能夠加強、加重罰則……"],["陳部長駿季：有加重刑罰在這次的修法裡面……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這部分也都在做嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：有，在修法裡面。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。最後一個部分，針對遊蕩犬，因為我看到部長在報告當中也針對遊蕩犬花了很多的篇幅。這個月在新竹南寮地區又發生遊蕩犬傷人的事件，農業部對於遊蕩犬傷人的狀態有沒有去做全面性的統計？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在能夠掌握遊蕩犬的數量，上次統計是15萬9,000，現在已經到了11萬4,000，所以遊蕩犬的數量是在下降，但是關於咬人的部分，現在我手邊並沒有這個數據。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，部長，這就是我要特別講的狀態，因為每兩年政府會針對遊蕩犬的數量去做調查，每兩年會調查一次……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我發現教育部跟交通部都對於遊蕩犬跟人產生的衝突都有一些統計，可是農業部主管反而沒有，我看你的報告有講到，經統計媒體報導的數量是減低的，可是媒體不一定會把每個案件都報導出來，所以我希望針對這部分能夠有官方的統計，然後能夠好好解決遊蕩犬的相關問題，因為我發現你對遊蕩犬確實有些著墨，就是你這邊提到下一個階段要增加各地方收容量的問題，我們也希望好好的去做，對於零撲殺這邊也能夠真正去落實，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員提醒，我們會針對遊蕩犬攻擊人的事件重新做一個有系統的調查，才能夠掌握相關的案件跟數據。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝部長。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，我們現在請陳亭妃委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","葉元之","蔡易餘","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","邱議瑩","張雅琳","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員呂玉\n玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員劉建國等 16 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案；七、本\n院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」\n案；八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員李坤城等\n22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案；十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十四、本院委員郭昱晴\n等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護\n法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保\n護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案；十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動\n物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正\n草案」案；十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案；二\n十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二十一、本院委\n員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬\n具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案；二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五\n條之二條文修正草案」案；二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等 17 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17 人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案\n（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144501_00004"}}},{"id":"160770","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160770","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369dca0e6a2b3106cda8b6df88a6e7dffcac2100e055cb59403d45d1968440bc2ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:18:27 - 10:29:53","影片長度":"00:11:26","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場(廠)墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T10:18:27+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:29:53+08:00","duration":686,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6215937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.396593750000001,"end":11.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.72534375,"end":11.759093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.759093750000002,"end":11.978468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.978468750000001,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.029093750000001,"end":12.113468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.113468750000003,"end":12.231593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.231593750000002,"end":12.332843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.332843750000002,"end":12.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.05346875,"end":18.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.07034375,"end":18.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.11659375,"end":42.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.69096875,"end":71.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.96471875,"end":46.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.17159375,"end":80.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.38534375,"end":119.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.13034375000001,"end":120.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.65346875,"end":135.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.99721875,"end":137.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.71846875,"end":188.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.31284375,"end":140.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.19971875000002,"end":211.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.00221875000003,"end":256.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.58159375,"end":281.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.97846875,"end":283.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.78409375,"end":306.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.03784375000004,"end":307.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.89846875,"end":310.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.96971875,"end":344.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.75346875,"end":346.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.75284375,"end":350.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.78659375,"end":358.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.99596875000003,"end":360.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.58221875000004,"end":373.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.03596875000005,"end":373.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.06971875000005,"end":373.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.45784375000005,"end":393.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.80284375,"end":380.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.28159375,"end":428.72346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.26346875,"end":441.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.90284375000005,"end":444.40034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.88971875000004,"end":447.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.64909375,"end":445.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":445.96971875,"end":446.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":447.57284375,"end":486.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.51846875,"end":474.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.70346875,"end":477.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.98534375,"end":481.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.72284375000004,"end":491.12721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.36346875000004,"end":527.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":493.89471875000004,"end":494.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.31659375000004,"end":494.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.79659375,"end":532.9265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.85909375,"end":532.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":532.97721875,"end":535.8797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.1797187500001,"end":533.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.09096875,"end":535.8290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.8797187499999,"end":535.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.94721875,"end":546.9834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.79409375,"end":544.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.6628437500001,"end":581.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.2690937500001,"end":590.3015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.50409375,"end":597.8615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.1315937500001,"end":598.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.21596875,"end":598.4015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.4015937500001,"end":598.5365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.5365937500001,"end":598.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.8403437500001,"end":610.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.90596875,"end":614.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.09534375,"end":621.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.0984687499999,"end":658.3584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":659.23596875,"end":675.7397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.4909687500001,"end":683.6709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":683.6709687500002,"end":684.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.10971875,"end":684.3797187499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.009,"end":11.35,"text":"謝謝主席 我們是不是有請洪部長來 請部長黃委員好"},{"start":19.144,"end":40.176,"text":"部長你們在去年113年的時候提出營造業最弱打擊年但是你們原本設定的目標是死亡人數控制在68人但實質上最弱致死的人數高達85人超出你們原來設定目標的25%"},{"start":43.177,"end":71.265,"text":"針對這件事情你們有沒有好好的檢討到底你們設定了打幾年結果越打幾死亡人數反而不降反升這個代表你們在執行過程其實有很多需要檢討的地方沒有到位另外一個我也讓你看一下我們跟日韓比較起來你看到我們的曲線圖台灣我們都在維持一個營造業最弱致死的比例都是一個高峰"},{"start":72.225,"end":94.202,"text":"都是維持在六成七左右都沒有下降但是我們鄰近的你看看像這個日本跟南韓南韓本來在2019年跟我們一樣是高峰但是人家有效的下降下來了那日本呢其實他們的公安做的比我們好他都維持在三成多到四成"},{"start":94.582,"end":119.251,"text":"新加坡表現更好新加坡的這個罪惡致死呢他一直都維持在不到三成這樣子一個情況就是有效的控制那臺灣我們這幾年其實都沒有明顯的一個改善反而有微幅的增加去年還增加了25%這代表我們在各項的防災的落實上面其實是做的不夠的你們的檢討是什麼"},{"start":120.945,"end":139.47,"text":"我先跟委員報告第一個確實我們去年並沒有達到68人的目標但是其實去年並不是增加還是有減少只是有稍微下降但是確實沒有達到目標跟目標比較起來就是超出25%沒有達到目標這件事情我們就該檢討"},{"start":141.07,"end":167.385,"text":"那就像剛剛委員說的其實我們也參考像新加坡或幾個國家他們的做法我們確實看到比方說在新加坡他們業主必須在這個公安事件裡面的責任是有很強要被苛責的那我們也看到了這些相關的狀況包括我們的工地的文化包括我們工地管理的狀況包括我們其實很多這營建業的工地它其實那個層層轉包的狀況其實很多責任到時候在分包的過程裡面"},{"start":167.965,"end":188.318,"text":"其實就被切割甚至會有一點支離破碎的情況所以這一次我們提出慈安法的修法其實也是在處理第一個讓業主是可以被究責的業主要做高包括其實很多新加坡大家都拿新加坡的案例來說到說他可能要去做很多的風險分析甚至要提撥一定的經費來做慈安位的使用"},{"start":189.238,"end":207.07,"text":"在使用那第二個是針對這些層層轉包的狀況我們也在這次責任法修法裡面來要求你要有一個包商之間的在這個這個相關統合管理的這樣子的責任不會在層層轉包的過程裡面其實到處切割結果最後就發生讓大家覺得很"},{"start":208.07,"end":222.487,"text":"這個不幸的事件或者是責任難以追究的狀況你講的這兩項我通通都同意但是我要提醒勞動部的是那別忘了政府的角色在哪裡業者當然有角色但是我們看看我在去年其實就質詢日本的做法他的這個他在工地裡面他將這一個可視化"},{"start":229.094,"end":240.9,"text":"減災的這個工程他其實做得非常的徹底事實上你們去年在政府的角色你們說你們要去推動這個包括安全看的見風險看的見就是可視化的減災工程要去輔導要去推動但是你看你們執行下來的這個數字今天當然也有內政部在我不覺得完全只是勞動部的責任內政部作為這個營建單位的主管機關我覺得這件事情你們並沒有推到底"},{"start":256.647,"end":282.527,"text":"就是我記得我去年質詢的時候我說日本做得很好你說我們也有我們有打幾年然後我們要去推動結果你們執行下來目前看起來你們的這個就是找了幾個示範的工地那真正的這個申請通過數這個佔整個的比例來看的話他的比例還是低的你們真的有權利在推動嗎今天那個內政部的代表是誰副總工程師嗎"},{"start":284.474,"end":305.887,"text":"蘇副總工程師是不是也應該一起在這件事情我也不覺得完全只是勞動部的責任像這個推動工地的安全這個是完全是可視化減災工程我覺得他可以收到立即性效果的那這個部分你們到底推的有沒有好好的推動內政部有在協助勞動部這個部分嗎"},{"start":307.128,"end":335.107,"text":"你們做了什麼是那謝謝委員那主要啦吼那營造業分成就是公共工程跟民間工程是那公共工程的這一塊啦吼那基本上那有我們的所謂政府採購法還有相相關的這個職安法這些來來律定那所以我想我們公共工程的工這個工程主辦機關在職安的這一塊大概都非常的重視啦吼所以"},{"start":337.048,"end":345.331,"text":"所以相對的在民間工程的這一塊現在可能是我們還要去努力的目標那所以我們在這個你們在可施化減災工程這個項目裡面包括這個安全看得見 風險看得見這整個預防墜落措施你們協助了什麼 內政部協助了什麼"},{"start":361.066,"end":379.325,"text":"這個部分我們有四份工地在做教育訓練的推廣那目前就是說有比較優良的廠商我們目前會後續都會做相關的觀摩但你們的次數看起來都很少這相較於現在這麼多的工地來講比例很少"},{"start":380.526,"end":393.65,"text":"你們是不是應該要想辦法跟各個營建公會還有就是找業者大家怎麼樣透過一個比較大的規模的實施而且去要求逐步去要求事實上你們這些示範我個人覺得很好就是說這個視覺化裡面就"},{"start":396.231,"end":416.24,"text":"產生了一個很好的警示的效果這個是可以提醒這個所有的勞工他在這個工地現場就是那個透過視覺上去做提醒這個也是日本人家做得很好所以他們在這個最弱的公安比例比我們更低但是我覺得台灣我們不要都只做半套就是說感覺人家很好然後呼了一個口號說最弱打幾年"},{"start":417.981,"end":439.492,"text":"然後呢今年推動的力道有要更大嗎有要強化嗎這個部分在今天的報告坦白講我都沒有看到最弱打擊年這幾個字也已經消失了所以不要只是做半套喔這個去年喊一個口號有一個宣示結果今年又沒有繼續延續了今年也要繼續做嗎內政部跟勞動部也要繼續做嗎也要擴大推廣嗎我們後續會積極的合作"},{"start":445.569,"end":473.749,"text":"來 部長回答 內政部請先回跟委員說明 第一個是我確實覺得怎麼樣讓這些該做的或對的事情要做得更到位然後包括案例更多 滲透率更高我覺得這部分我們願意來檢討參考其實委員的一些提醒來檢討但是就我們目前看到是說可能數字上面我們會再提供給委員一個更新的數據那你們可以直接告訴大家好"},{"start":474.83,"end":492.854,"text":"再提供給委員可是我不會去說我們這已經做到很到位了或者我不會這樣去說所以我們還是願意來跟相關的其他的國家的經驗做更徹底的學習因為這一個其實為什麼那麼重要因為每一個墜落事件很多大概就是死亡"},{"start":493.334,"end":510.809,"text":"不是重傷就會死亡那個對一個整個家庭的衝擊其實是非常大的所以我希望這一塊你們要更用心另外一個我要問你們的就是你們職業安全訓練的人數為什麼不升反降退回三年前的數字你可以看到有沒有接受職業訓練對於防災來講它還是產生一定的效果的那為什麼你們反而你們的量能是下降的呢"},{"start":516.263,"end":532.535,"text":"去年是發生什麼事為什麼整體的數字反而無論是在這個各行業的安全衛生訓練總人數或是主管的部分都是呈現下降的趨勢跟委員報告其實整體的安全衛生教育訓練並沒有下降"},{"start":532.955,"end":551.703,"text":"那這個數字有誤嗎還是你們沒有關心對跟委員報告現在安全衛生教育院的職類非常多他有將近60個職類那可能委員看到的是目前只到營造作業主管他是有上下在浮動依照這個需求所以你們沒有擴大嗎我的意思就是說如果你們是營建業墜落打幾年的話你們所有的包括"},{"start":554.544,"end":569.193,"text":"工地現場的安全這個應該要擴大你們的職業安全訓練的人數也應該是要擴大但是看起來並沒有這樣的一個趨勢我希望你們可以檢討另外一個就是有關於外籍移工職災人數他其實在營建業裡面也呈現這個人數"},{"start":573.716,"end":596.43,"text":"是增加的一個情況這樣的一個趨勢喔那這個部分呢你們現在有退一個這個移工的職安卡所以在這個營建業裡面我要問的是說你們營建業裡面的外籍移工他取得職安卡的比例是不是在營建業裡面因為他高風險他們是不是都有取得職安卡所以才進來從事這個營建業有沒有"},{"start":599.111,"end":620.653,"text":"跟委員報告,確實這個移工的安全衛生教育是我們的重點那現在我們的台灣指南卡的部分,到目前為止大概有20萬人受訓那移工裡面大概有2萬多人那營建業裡面的移工他們有沒有都拿到指南卡我們目前是跟這個很多跨部會在合作希望達到說所有的移工都要拿到台灣指南卡"},{"start":621.155,"end":639.195,"text":"就我掌握到的數據現在這個移工從事營建業大概超過4萬那他拿到的比例是不是大概只有2萬8所以累積才2萬8所以代表還有1萬多人他其實是沒有接受你的訓練但我覺得你們的這個職安卡是好的因為你們是用多國語言"},{"start":640.456,"end":654.194,"text":"讓移工可以理解的語言然後告訴他職業安全方面的知識這個對於他們保障自身的安全我覺得是很有幫助的這個部分你們是不是可以盡快怎麼樣透過其他的方式讓這一些從事高風險的營建業的移工讓他們可以得到這樣的一個職業安全的知識"},{"start":659.295,"end":684.111,"text":"好 我們當然這部分我覺得這是一個對的方向那我們怎麼樣更加碼的來進行包括資源的投入包括加速的來檢討這部分我們會盡快的來提出一個相關的計畫來擴大我覺得保護這些外籍移工來台灣工作他們的人身安全 職業風險這些給他高度的保障我覺得這個是我們該做的事 好不好謝謝王委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":463,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時18分）謝謝主席，我們是不是有請洪部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，你們在113（去）年的時候提出「營造業墜落打擊年」，你們原本設定的目標是死亡人數控制在68人，但是實質上墜落致死的人數高達85人，超出你們原來設定目標的25%，針對這件事情，你們有沒有好好的檢討？"],["洪部長申翰：有。"],["王委員育敏：到底你們設定了打擊年，結果越打擊死亡人數反而不降反升，這個代表你們在執行過程其實有很多須要檢討的地方，沒有做到位。另外一個，我也讓你看一下我們跟日、韓比較起來，臺灣的曲線圖，營建業墜落致死的比例都是維持在一個高峰，維持在六成七左右，都沒有下降。我們鄰近的，你看看像日本跟南韓，南韓本來在2019年跟我們一樣是高峰，但是人家有效地降下來了；至於日本，其實他們的工安做得比我們好，它都維持在三成多到四成；新加坡表現更好，新加坡墜落致死一直都維持在不到三成這樣的情況，有效地控制。臺灣這幾年其實都沒有明顯的一個改善，反而有微幅地增加，去年還增加了25%，這代表我們在各項防災的落實上面，其實是做得不夠的，你們的檢討是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：我先跟委員報告，第一個，確實我們去年並沒有達到68人的目標，但是其實去年不是增加，還是有減少，有稍微下降，但是確實沒有達到目標。沒有達到目標……"],["王委員育敏：跟目標比較起來就是超出25%嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對，沒有達到目標這件事情我們就該檢討。就像剛剛委員說的，其實我們也參考像新加坡或幾個國家他們的作法，我們確實看到比方在新加坡，他們業主在工安事件裡面的責任是必須的、很強調被課責的。我們也看到了這些相關的狀況，包括我們的工地的文化，包括我們工地管理的狀況，包括我們很多營建業的工地層層轉包的狀況，很多責任在分包的過程裡面被切割，甚至會有一點支離破碎的情況。所以這一次我們提出職安法的修法，其實也是在處理第一個，讓業主是可以被究責的。其實大家都拿新加坡的案例來說，他可能要去做很多的風險分析，甚至要提撥一定的經費來做職安衛的使用。第二個，針對這些層層轉包的狀況，我們也在這次職安法修法裡面要求，你要有一個包商之間相關統合管理這樣子的責任，不會在層層轉包的過程裡面到處切割，結果最後就發生讓大家覺得很不幸的事件，或者是責任難以追究的狀況。"],["王委員育敏：好，你講的這兩項我通通都同意，但是我要提醒勞動部的是業者當然有角色，但也別忘了政府的角色在哪裡。我在去年其實就質詢，我們看看日本的作法，它在工地裡面將「可視化減災」的這個工程做得非常的澈底。事實上，你們去年在政府的角色，你們說要去推動包括安全看得見、風險看得見，就是可視化的減災工程，要去輔導、要去推動，但是看你們執行下來的數字，當然今天也有內政部在，我不覺得完全只是勞動部的責任，內政部作為營建單位的主管機關，我覺得這件事情你們並沒有推到底。我記得去年質詢的時候，我說日本做得很好，你說我們也有，我們有打擊年，我們要去推動，結果你們執行下來，目前看起來，你們就是找了幾個示範的工地，真正申請通過數占整個比例來看，比例還是低的，你們真的有全力在推動嗎？","今天內政部的代表是誰？副總工程司嗎？蘇副總工程司，是不是你們也應該一起？這件事情我不覺得完全只是勞動部的責任，像推動工地的安全，這個完全是可視化減災工程，我覺得它是可以收到立即性效果的，這個部分你們到底有沒有好好的推動？內政部有在協助勞動部這個部分嗎？你們做了什麼？"],["蘇副總工程司建隆：謝謝委員。主要營造業分成公共工程跟民間工程，公共工程的這一塊，基本上有我們所謂政府採購法還有相關職安法這些來律定，所以我想我們公共工程的工程主辦機關，在職安的這一塊大概都非常的重視，相對的在民間工程的這一塊，現在可能是我們還要去努力的目標。所以我們在民間工程的部分……"],["王委員育敏：你們在可視化減災工程這一個項目裡面，包括安全看得見、風險看得見，整個預防墜落的措施，你們內政部協助了什麼？"],["蘇副總工程司建隆：這個部分我們有示範工地在做教育訓練的推廣，目前有比較優良的廠商，我們後續都會做相關的觀摩，然後給各個……"],["王委員育敏：但你們的次數看起來都很少啊！相較於現在這麼多的工地來講，比例很少耶！"],["蘇副總工程司建隆：是。"],["王委員育敏：你們是不是應該要想辦法跟各個營建工會，還有找業者，怎麼樣透過一個比較大規模的實施，而且去要求、逐步去要求？事實上你們這些示範，我個人覺得很好，這個視覺化裡面就產生了一個很好的警示的效果，可以透過視覺上提醒所有在工地現場所有的勞工，這個日本做得很好，所以他們在墜落的工安比例比我們更低，臺灣不要都只做半套，就是說感覺人家很好，我們呼了一個口號說「墜落打擊年」，然後呢？今年推動的力道有要更大嗎？有要強化嗎？這個部分在今天的報告，坦白講我都沒有看到，「墜落打擊年」這幾個字也已經消失，不要只是做半套，去年喊一個口號有一個宣示，結果今年又沒有繼續延續，今年有要繼續做嗎？內政部跟勞動部有要繼續做嗎？有要擴大推廣嗎？"],["蘇副總工程司建隆：我們後續會積極地合作。"],["王委員育敏：來，部長回答。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，第一個，我確實覺得怎麼樣讓這些該做的或對的事情要做得更到位，包括案例更多、滲透率更高，這部分我們願意參考委員的一些提醒來檢討，但是就目前看到的，可能數字上面，會再提供給委員有更新的數據……"],["王委員育敏：有更新是不是？你們可以直接告訴大家。"],["洪部長申翰：我們再提供給委員。"],["王委員育敏：你們現在最新的數字要不要跟大家報告？"],["洪部長申翰：可是我不會說這已經做到很到位，我們還是願意跟其他有相關經驗的國家做更澈底地學習。"],["王委員育敏：為什麼這麼重要？因為很多墜落事件大概就是死亡，不是重傷就是死亡，對家庭的衝擊其實是非常大的，所以我希望這一塊你們要更用心。另外，我要問你們職業安全訓練人數為什麼不升反降退回三年前的數字？你可以看到有沒有接受職業訓練對於防災來講還是產生一定的效果，為什麼反而你們的量能是下降的？去年是發生什麼事？為什麼整體的數字，反而無論是在各行業的安全衛生訓練總人數或是主管的部分，都是呈現下降的趨勢？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，其實整體的安全衛生教育訓練並沒有下降。"],["王委員育敏：數字有誤嗎？還是你們沒有更新？"],["林署長毓堂：對，跟委員報告，現在安全衛生教育的職類非常多有將近六十個職類，可能委員看到的是目前只到營造作業主管，它是有上下在浮動，依照需求……"],["王委員育敏：所以你們沒有擴大，我的意思就是說如果你們是營建業墜落打擊年，你們所有包括工地現場的安全應該要擴大，你們職業安全訓練的人數也應該是要擴大，但是看起來並沒有這樣的趨勢，我希望你們可以檢討。另外，有關於外籍移工職災人數其實在營建業也呈現人數增加的情況，有這樣的趨勢，你們現在有推一個移工的職安卡，我要問的是你們營建業的外籍移工取得職安卡的比例，因為在營建業是高風險，他們是不是都有取得職安卡才進來從事營建業？有沒有？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，確實移工的安全衛生教育訓練是我們的重點，現在臺灣職安卡目前為止大概有20萬人受訓，移工裡面大概有占兩萬多人。"],["王委員育敏：營建業裡面的移工有沒有都拿到職安卡？"],["林署長毓堂：我們目前跟很多跨部會合作，希望達到所有的移工都要拿到臺灣職安卡。"],["王委員育敏：就我掌握到數據，現在移工從事營建業大概超過4萬，拿到的比例大概只有2萬8,000，累積才2萬8,000代表還有一萬多人其實是沒有接受你們的訓練，但我覺得職安卡是好的，因為你們是用多國語言、讓移工可以理解的語言告訴他職業安全方面的知識，這個對於保障他們自身的安全我覺得是很有幫助，這個部分你們是不是可以儘快透過怎麼樣的方式，讓從事高風險營建業的移工可以得到職業安全的知識？"],["洪部長申翰：好。這部分我覺得是一個對的方向，我們怎麼樣更加碼進行，包括資源的投入、包括加速檢討，這部分我們會儘快地提出相關的計畫來擴大核發職安卡。"],["王委員育敏：我覺得保護外籍移工來臺灣工作，他們的人身安全、職業風險，給他們高度的保障我覺得是該做的事，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好。謝謝王委員。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請林淑芬委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}},{"id":"160769","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160769","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423695251209d09a9c7e10ca66b6f3bc7c703c2100e055cb59403b0ca6921d57b82b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"10:18:36 - 10:28:39","影片長度":"00:10:03","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T10:18:36+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:28:39+08:00","duration":603,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0434687500000002,"end":1.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.04221875,"end":9.329093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.953468750000003,"end":11.016593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.400343750000001,"end":14.020343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.72034375,"end":17.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.49221875,"end":41.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.60721875,"end":39.282218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.63221875,"end":42.049718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.43346875,"end":82.34721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.41471875,"end":84.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.18221875,"end":85.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.21596875,"end":85.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.45221875,"end":89.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.40096875,"end":90.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.86471875000001,"end":105.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.36096875000001,"end":102.85034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.39034375,"end":103.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.23409375,"end":116.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.85659375,"end":118.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.37096875,"end":168.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.66284375,"end":198.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.57784375,"end":220.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.60409375,"end":234.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.42471875,"end":234.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.44159375,"end":238.40721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.40721875000003,"end":250.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.87784375,"end":257.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.44221875,"end":259.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.78784375000004,"end":296.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.47409375,"end":333.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.36284375,"end":339.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.87221875,"end":347.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.97284375000004,"end":346.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.72784375000003,"end":349.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.86659375000005,"end":353.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.71846875,"end":355.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.99221875,"end":360.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.58221875000004,"end":362.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.92784375,"end":370.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.66096875000005,"end":369.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.04909375,"end":370.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.50471875000005,"end":376.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.29284375000003,"end":385.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.52909375,"end":376.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.53221875,"end":384.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.18159375000005,"end":399.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.49596875000003,"end":411.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.19971875000005,"end":405.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.22909375,"end":406.36409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.40971875,"end":431.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.44034375,"end":459.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.14471875000004,"end":464.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.65034375000005,"end":467.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.51909375,"end":471.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.10909375000006,"end":487.81971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.47784375000003,"end":494.43471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.43471875000006,"end":498.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.46784375000004,"end":501.64034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.85971875,"end":502.51784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.65284375000005,"end":525.1809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.50159375,"end":557.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.3784687500001,"end":575.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.7903437500001,"end":568.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.85659375,"end":580.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.91909375,"end":599.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.5990937500001,"end":604.13909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.349,"end":10.782,"text":"聽委委員質詢好 謝召委 有請院長請院長備質詢 謝謝委員長"},{"start":18.51,"end":41.878,"text":"好 院長我們去年113年的時候有跟你提到故宮國寶出遊台中還記得嗎有那這個規劃當時你答應我會去研議那我也講了很多次喔並在兩週後回覆我具體的一個展覽內容跟策劃的一個方向但是我好像還沒有收到這樣子的一個回覆欸那這是我第三次的跟您請問公文報告就是我"},{"start":44.34,"end":64.278,"text":"隔一個禮拜的話我就跟國美館的館長見面 看了到故宮然後我們也談了兩次那因為對於展覽的內容的話就是國美館他們有不同的一個策展的方向因為故宮國寶出遊區的話是整場包裝然後過去那國美館的話他們也去看了大美不遠"},{"start":64.938,"end":89.474,"text":"他們是希望說故宮的文物跟國美館典藏的文物用一種對話的方式來展出所以這樣的一個展覽的話他們希望說有一個比較長的時間去做規劃不是說就是故宮國寶出遊區那一批就整個過去不單單只是把國寶搬去而已對就是他們的一個建議是希望用對話的方式去做一個展覽"},{"start":92.046,"end":117.112,"text":"國美館的話他有林義山連詞的國寶內建文物他們希望說他們典藏的文物跟故宮的文物同時展出跟大美不一樣就是不同的文物一起展出我覺得利益良善嘛當然我們支持嘛但是這個部分上我們尊重專業但是也拜託盡可能的幫我們加速這個部分可不可以再麻煩你幫我們多溝通好可以嗎"},{"start":118.112,"end":145.441,"text":"好謝謝你那另外我想問一下喔4月17日我們有去做這個嘉義的南院考察雖然我沒有去喔但是我有派助理那這個助理呢他回來以後有跟我分享當時啊陸庫示範RFID的文物提件的一個時候啊有一些現場的狀況我想今天其他的委員應該也有提到我就不細談了但主要是文物的推車內的一個文物取出一件以後再推回庫房"},{"start":146.301,"end":169.897,"text":"結果警報是不會響的那後來仔細的去了解你們回覆是說因為文物推車它的是金屬材質RFID無法穿透因此文物進出僅以推車上RFID的標籤作為識別無法及時掌握推車內個別文物的一個數量跟這個品項的一個變化我們關心的是文物"},{"start":170.785,"end":198.468,"text":"那若在搬運入庫出庫過程中如果文物遺失或者是調換這個現行的系統並沒有辦法馬上的察覺這個是非常嚴重的一個狀況那我想問一下因為搬運大多數都是國家級的寶物我們真的不希望花這麼多的經費結果文物完全還是呈現在這樣子的一個狀況之下請問院長目前故宮針對這樣的問題有沒有檢討並提出改善的方案"},{"start":201.163,"end":219.814,"text":"因為這個問題是我那天故意把這個bug就呈現給委員那因為我有請同仁去針對那個不鏽鋼的金屬推車去做改造可是現在的問題的話不見得是完全是因為推車的關係而是說"},{"start":220.794,"end":250.294,"text":"各別的紋路跟推車都可以被掃描確認但是整批的批次的紋路堆在一起的時候基本上來講的話技術上還是有一點點困擾所以我們說是不是還有其他的一個方案投入這樣的經費所以這個部分的話就是我們會找廠商來處理因為RFID的話當初我在國立台灣美術館之後在推的時候那時候比較簡單因為它都是畫作"},{"start":251.054,"end":280.118,"text":"他畫作的話每個畫作的尺寸size所以他比較容易去處理但是故宮的國寶不一定都是故宮的紋路基本上來講的話除了紋路本身之外的話我們大小不宜小的比較多然後另外的話放在錦盒裡面所以我們沒有辦法把RFID的這些識別標籤直接貼在紋路上面所以他就會放在那個放在那個盒子上面"},{"start":280.858,"end":296.105,"text":"因為畫的話基本上來講可以貼在畫框或是畫的某一個邊緣背後不會影響到文物但是以故宮來講的話比較不容易把標籤直接貼在文物上面"},{"start":296.525,"end":312.186,"text":"好 我們能夠體諒啦但是我要講的是說這件事情我們有注意到我們更希望之後有一個具體的一個檢討方案能夠讓這個部分能夠更完善我想文物的一個運輸過程當中應該也有很反覆的一個流程"},{"start":312.546,"end":338.969,"text":"那請問一下翠玉白菜在運送的途中有沒有裝設溫度濕度震動的相關的一個監控設備運送的車輛有沒有做到即時的監控我為什麼會這樣子問是因為我們最近啊這個翠玉白菜它有所謂的要這個出借嘛我們要到這個捷克做展覽對不對那整體的這個過程當中我先跟你請問我們有沒有投保全額保險"},{"start":341.236,"end":361.112,"text":"全額保險沒有問題,絕對是多圖多,窩圖窩,對那保險的金額是怎麼訂定?保險金額,庫公從來都沒有對外有你們訂,還是第三方專業估價?我們自己有內帳,但是從來都沒有對外公佈好,沒關係,這是機密嗎?"},{"start":363.324,"end":379.374,"text":"好 是機密那就不用講 沒關係 機密不要說喔但是就是由你們來訂定 不是由第三方嘛 對不對對 我們訂定 好 OK OK但是我剛剛回到來問喔 這個運送的過程有全額保險但是這個繁複的過程有沒有裝設溫度 濕度 震動的相關監控設備運送的車輛有沒有做到即時監控"},{"start":386.706,"end":409.963,"text":"那個基本上來講的話故宮的文物出去的話都是一定是國際化的標準作業橫紅絲氣墊貨櫃所以包括它的內廂外廂的話都有一定的作業程序在處理就我所知道到捷克的國家博物館當然展覽的環境一定會有控文控詩放到這個部分但是我在意的是運送的啦所以運送的部分你說也有依照"},{"start":410.883,"end":430.943,"text":"國際的這個標準我們故宮的東西只要出故宮博物院的話就會有全程的介護就是台北的話台北市警察局國道警察局然後包括那個海關哪裡都一定要有專案的介護所以我們過去一直都跟那個警政署做合作"},{"start":431.823,"end":459.384,"text":"因為這個部分上我們大家都知道這不是一般的展覽品這國寶出去都要做一個細節最高的標準去看待所以我想最後我要強調是翠玉白菜這部分這個象徵性它能夠去到捷克來做展覽讓世人能夠看到我們當然是非常的開心但是故宮肩負的不只是展覽成功的壓力更是確保文物能夠出得去"},{"start":460.405,"end":487.182,"text":"展的好並且平安回來每一個細節都要做到滴水不漏也要麻煩故宮這部分要多加以我想故宮所有同仁的話都是秉持這樣的理念來處理事情那不好意思因為剛剛真的是聊到這一題突然跳到這個捷克展覽但是我還是要回過頭來再跟您請問一下我們現在目前我們這個RFID導入的一個試行方式目前是北院先試行嗎"},{"start":488.876,"end":500.805,"text":"目前北院先試行然後南院的話是七氣庫房現在也在進行所以有沒有打算推動的時間表做到全面普及還是你覺得有困難因為目前的表現並不是這麼好"},{"start":502.847,"end":524.964,"text":"基本上來講的話這個推動的話就持續會推動然後會慢慢修正那他整個工作的話可能要到那個北宴的所有的庫房都建制完成所以才會完成所以基本上來講的話我們會逐步推動但是所謂完成的這個部分的話因為持續都會精進都會修正"},{"start":525.56,"end":540.045,"text":"我想北院聚集的是全國最珍貴的一個國寶搬運入庫出庫過程中發現如果如果有這樣子的文物遺失錯誌或者是調換都會作為一個非常嚴重的一個錯誤不容小覷所以在這樣的前提之下院長"},{"start":540.825,"end":556.93,"text":"我覺得針對南北院的IFID的一個系統設置缺陷管理風險是否有系統性的檢討跟補強的一個計畫如果有那我希望你們如果完成以後相關的計畫應該要讓我們知道一下那如果沒有是否能夠提出具體的一個改善跟做法"},{"start":557.518,"end":580.559,"text":"是跟我們報告就是說以目前來講的話故宮不會全部仰賴科技就是說科技只是協助做登錄做辨識的一個工程可以認同但是一定要有人親自去處理所以每一個過程的話最後都還是經過數位掃描之後都還要有人為的辨識這是故宮比較繁複的一個地方"},{"start":580.959,"end":598.647,"text":"好我覺得這個部分當然是要自助啦但是要機器輔導基本上我覺得是也是有機會能夠加強因為畢竟這麼大量的一些文物那這個部分上我還是希望說能夠把這個系統做到最好這個部分再提醒你謝謝好謝謝委員好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":308,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（10時18分）謝謝召委，有請院長。"],["主席：請院長備詢，謝謝。"],["蕭院長宗煌：羅委員早。"],["羅委員廷瑋：院長，我們去（113）年的時候有跟你提到故宮國寶出遊臺中，還記得嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個規劃當時你答應我會去研議，我也講了很多次，並在兩週後回復我具體的展覽內容跟策劃方向，但是我好像還沒有收到這樣的回復，這是我第3次跟您請託。"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，就是隔一個禮拜，我就跟國美館館長見面，他也有到故宮，然後我們也談了兩次，因為對於展覽內容的話，就是國美館他們有不同的策展方向，因為「故宮國寶出遊去」是整場包裝，然後過去。國美館的話，他們也去看了「大美不言」，他們是希望故宮的文物跟國美館的典藏文物用一種對話的方式來展出，所以針對這樣的一個展覽，他們希望有一個比較長的時間規劃，而不是「故宮國寶出遊去」那一批就整個過去。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不單單只是把國寶搬去而已……"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，就是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：他們的建議是，希望用對話的方式去做展覽？"],["蕭院長宗煌：比如說國美館有林玉山《蓮池》這件國寶文物，他們希望自己典藏的文物跟故宮的文物同時展出，跟「大美不言」一樣，就是不同的文物一起展出。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我覺得立意良善，我們當然支持，這個部分我們尊重專業，但是也拜託儘可能的加速，這個部分可不可以再麻煩你幫我們多溝通，可以嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝你。","另外我想問一下，4月17日我們有去嘉義的南院考察，雖然我沒有去，但是我有派助理，助理回來以後有跟我分享，當時入庫試辦RFID文物提件的時候有一些現場狀況，我想今天其他的委員應該也有提到，我就不細談，但主要是文物推車內取出一件文物以後再推回庫房，結果警報是不會響的，後來仔細去了解，你們的回復是，因為文物推車是金屬材質，RFID無法穿透，因此文物進出僅以推車上RFID的標籤作為識別，無法即時掌握推車內個別文物的數量跟品項的變化。我們關心的是文物，若在搬運入庫、出庫的過程中文物遺失或者調換，這個現行的系統並沒有辦法馬上察覺，這是非常嚴重的一個狀況。我想問一下，因為搬運的大多數是國家級的寶物，我們真的不希望花這麼多的經費，結果文物還是呈現在這樣子的狀況之下，請問院長，目前故宮針對這樣的問題有沒有檢討並提出改善的方案？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，這個問題是我那天故意把這個bug呈現給委員，我有請同仁針對不鏽鋼的金屬推車做改造，但現在的問題不見得完全是因為推車的關係，而是個別的文物跟推車都可以被掃描確認，但是整批次文物堆在一起的時候，技術上還是有一點點困擾。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以是不是還有其他的方案？既然已經投入這樣的經費。"],["蕭院長宗煌：這個部分我們會找廠商來處理，關於RFID，當初我在國立臺灣美術館推動的時候比較簡單，因為那邊都是畫作，每個畫作的size比較容易處理。"],["羅委員廷瑋：大致相同？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是故宮的國寶不一定都是這樣。"],["蕭院長宗煌：故宮的文物基本上來講，除了文物本身之外，我們的大小不一，小的比較多，而且還會放在錦盒裡面，所以我們沒有辦法把RFID這些識別標籤直接貼在文物上面，就會放在盒子上面。如果是畫的話，基本上可以貼在畫框或是畫的某一個邊緣、背後，不會影響到文物，但是以故宮來講，比較不容易把那個標籤直接貼在文物上面。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這部分我們能夠體諒，但我要講的是，這件事情我們有注意到，我們更希望之後有一個具體的檢討方案能夠讓這部分更完善。","我想文物的運輸過程當中應該也有很繁複的流程，請問一下，翠玉白菜在運送途中有沒有裝設溫度、溼度、震動相關的監控設備？運送的車輛有沒有做到即時的監控？我為什麼會這樣子問？因為最近翠玉白菜要出借到捷克做展覽，在整體過程當中，我先請問你，我們有沒有投保全額保險？"],["蕭院長宗煌：全額保險沒有問題，絕對是door to door、wall to wall。"],["羅委員廷瑋：完整的全額嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對！"],["羅委員廷瑋：保險的金額是怎麼訂定？"],["蕭院長宗煌：保險金額故宮從來都沒有對外……"],["羅委員廷瑋：由你們訂還是第三方專業估價？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們自己有內帳，但是從來都沒有對外公布。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，沒關係。這是機密嗎？是機密，那就不用講，沒關係，機密不要說。但就是由你們來訂定，不是由第三方嘛，對不對？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，我們訂定。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。回到我剛剛問的，運送過程有全額保險，但是這個繁複的過程有沒有裝設溫度、溼度、震動的相關監控設備？運送的車輛有沒有做到即時監控？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上，故宮的文物出去都一定是國際化的標準作業，除了恆溫恆濕氣墊貨櫃，包括它的內箱、外箱都有一定的作業程序在處理。"],["羅委員廷瑋：就我所知，要到捷克的國家博物館，展覽的環境當然一定會有控溫、控溼、防盜等部分，但是我在意的是運送，所以運送的部分你說也有依照國際的標準？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對！而且我們故宮的東西只要出故宮博物院就會有全程戒護，在臺北是臺北市警察局、國道警察局，包含海關，無論哪裡都一定要有專案的戒護，所以我們過去一直都跟警政署合作。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們大家都知道這個不是一般的展覽品，這是國寶，出去的細節都要用最高標準去看待。","最後我要強調是翠玉白菜的象徵性，它能夠去到捷克做展覽、讓世人能夠看到，我們當然是非常的開心，但是故宮肩負的不只是展覽成功的壓力，更要確保文物能夠出得去、展得好並且平安回來，每一個細節都要做到滴水不漏，也要麻煩故宮這部分要多加以注意。"],["蕭院長宗煌：我想故宮所有同仁都是秉持這樣的理念來處理事情。"],["羅委員廷瑋：不好意思，剛剛聊到這一題突然跳到捷克展，但我還是要回過頭跟您請問一下，關於導入RFID的試行方式，目前是北院先試行嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：目前北院先試行，然後南院的漆器庫房現在也在進行。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有沒有推動的時間表，做到全面普及？還是你覺得有困難，因為目前的表現並不是這麼好。"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上，這會持續推動，然後會慢慢修正，整個工作可能要到北院的所有庫房都建置完成才算完成，我們會逐步推動；至於所謂的完成，持續都會精進、都會修正。"],["羅委員廷瑋：北院聚集的是全國最珍貴的國寶，在搬運入庫、出庫的過程中，如果有文物遺失、錯置或者調換都會是非常嚴重的錯誤，不容小覷，所以在這樣的前提之下，院長，針對南北院RFID系統設置缺陷、管理風險，是否有系統性的檢討跟補強計畫？如果有，我希望你們完成以後，相關的計畫應該要讓我們知道一下；如果沒有，是否能夠提出具體的改善跟作法？"],["蕭院長宗煌：是，跟委員報告，以目前來講，故宮不會全部仰賴科技，科技只是協助做登錄、做辨識的工具，但是一定要有人親自去處理，所以最後經過數位掃描之後都還要有人為辨識，這是故宮比較繁複的一個地方。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我覺得這個部分當然要自助，但是如果有機器輔助，基本上我覺得也是有機會加強，畢竟有這麼大量的文物，這部分我還是希望能夠把這個系統做到最好，這個部分再提醒你，謝謝。"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員的質詢，請院長回座。","接下來有請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-9","speakers":["葛如鈞","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","林宜瑾","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","范雲","郭昱晴","陳冠廷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林沛祥","張雅琳"],"page_start":315,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00007"}}},{"id":"160768","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160768","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369a8ae6326c00eafa6693dd611367b4dddc2100e055cb594030b16ca848615eb905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:08:39 - 10:19:47","影片長度":"00:11:08","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查「保險法」15案：\n一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案。【後3案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第一百二十三條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T10:08:39+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:19:47+08:00","duration":668,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.30909375,"end":2.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.61659375,"end":6.105968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.629093750000001,"end":146.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.68409375,"end":86.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.18096875,"end":147.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.90221875,"end":156.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.79971875,"end":159.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.29284375,"end":170.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.84846875000002,"end":168.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.02971875,"end":171.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.85659375,"end":179.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.12096875,"end":183.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.93471875,"end":227.91096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.87721875000003,"end":265.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.20471875000004,"end":293.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.95971875000004,"end":295.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.76971875000004,"end":296.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.49096875000004,"end":300.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.08096875,"end":304.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.14784375,"end":308.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.18534375,"end":309.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.11346875000004,"end":309.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.48471875,"end":311.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.18471875,"end":341.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.58096875,"end":341.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.64846875,"end":346.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.05346875000004,"end":344.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.93471875,"end":353.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.77346875,"end":383.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.80221875,"end":410.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.98784375,"end":385.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.68409375000005,"end":428.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.42409375000005,"end":434.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.56221875000006,"end":436.28346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.40159375,"end":457.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.86659375000005,"end":476.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.41221875,"end":486.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.35159375,"end":493.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.86096875000004,"end":496.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.20659375,"end":510.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.16221875,"end":512.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.41096875000005,"end":539.7609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.80659375,"end":518.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.53159375,"end":524.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.7109687500001,"end":536.3015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.7609687500001,"end":540.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.39784375,"end":551.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.0122187500001,"end":559.0490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.6272187500001,"end":568.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.2890937500001,"end":565.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.45721875,"end":566.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.03096875,"end":567.0647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.2165937500001,"end":571.2665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.6928437500001,"end":582.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.75971875,"end":575.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.2353437500001,"end":592.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.11971875,"end":600.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.5065937500001,"end":603.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.55721875,"end":602.5359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.0928437499999,"end":612.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.15471875,"end":625.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.52409375,"end":657.5990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.89909375,"end":629.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.80534375,"end":636.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.87221875,"end":638.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.92471875,"end":655.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.5990937500001,"end":660.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.9197187500001,"end":658.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.67034375,"end":666.2222187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.309,"end":5.818,"text":"各位請主委請主委委員好"},{"start":6.724,"end":12.008,"text":"謝謝主委因為上一次的公聽會您沒有來是副主委在現場我仍舊對於我們這一次金管會提出的修正廠案我要表達一個支持但是我有一個失望修法增訂介入權在123條之2當中我們很完整的我們讓符合一定條件的債務人的親屬在債務人清償債務之後可以承接原來有的保險契約"},{"start":33.686,"end":49.63,"text":"我們這樣的做法事實上也是兼顧了債務人跟債權人的權益就是他清償完之後他親屬是還可以承接原來有的保險契約但是對於豁免執行的規定我在上一次的公聽會表達說跟很多學者專家主張是一樣的我認為我們的修法仍舊有許多違德不足"},{"start":56.531,"end":74.931,"text":"甚至在修法的過程當中因為我們現在也有強制執行法是不是有疊床架屋的狀況我覺得我上次已經表達過我覺得修法應該是我們越晚修法應該是思考得越純熟如果還有地方要再"},{"start":76.272,"end":96.586,"text":"沒有再把它補上去我會覺得非常的可惜畢竟一個法要完整的時候經過這麼多次的公聽會然後這麼多的討論你們才有辦法通過行政院才有辦法送進來所以我待會提到的我一個失望的部分我還是希望主委可以後續如果在法的部分我們可以加強我們再來去做後續的處理喔"},{"start":96.986,"end":112.26,"text":"那我們回顧這次修法的背景在最高法院在111年12月做出裁定的時候允許保單可以抵債務之後這類強制執行造成法院很多書記官的負荷因為很多人保單非常非常的多"},{"start":112.7,"end":128.861,"text":"他必須要一張一張去做確認然後今晚會為了保障強制執行的債務人得以維持基本的保險的保障同時也期待提供法院第一線強制執行人可以有一個執法的標準才會提出這一次的修法"},{"start":129.682,"end":146.194,"text":"那我就要請問主委你對於這一次的修法你覺得能夠達到原來的預期的信心嗎就是說我們原來這一次修法的目標你覺得通過我們公聽會到目前你看到你的版本還有這麼多委員的建議你覺得有辦法達到您的目標嗎我想齁"},{"start":149.453,"end":166.347,"text":"這個修法如果能通過一定能夠產生非常顯著的效果但是是否能夠完全解決問題那當然不太可能那麼多的樣態但是我們可以看到如果真的比如說我們講最簡單先把健康傷害把它排除我想就大部分的 健康跟傷害險"},{"start":168.689,"end":182.156,"text":"把它排除再來就是我們訂了一個合理的門檻值維持了基本的保障以後又可以大量排除一些現在在進行中的這些的保單那我想再來因為有了這個"},{"start":184.088,"end":209.746,"text":"那個法案以後大家知道未來某些保險的話它很有可能會成為這個未來強制執行的時候呢它某程度也會減少未來的可能的程度我想這個都是我們修法積極但是修法確實是剛剛有委員說你是贊成反對其實應該講比較精準應該是有條件如果個人是有條件的否定說確實我們有些情況完全支持肯定跟否定也不夠實際"},{"start":212.208,"end":227.115,"text":"那我的意思是說 確實有些狀況 比如剛剛有提到有人主張 比如說小中老保險有他的社會政策性有人又主張一些比較特殊的狀況 比如說弱勢的這些狀況這個都可以透過未來在我們在修法的調整過程當中尋求共識"},{"start":228.496,"end":249.097,"text":"主委這個就是我要強調未來在修法我們已經在修法為什麼不可以一次到位這是我談到就是說不符合豁免標準的其他各項保險契約的解約的債權現在強制執行法相關規定予以執行那我們修法的用意到底是什麼修法其實"},{"start":249.858,"end":264.109,"text":"不能只是自掃門前雪我們希望把不好把強制執行法沒有考量到的或者是我們怎麼樣把這兩個法我覺得我們思考的更完整或不足的地方我們兩邊把它匯成一次到位那"},{"start":265.47,"end":293.504,"text":"無論是保險法豁免的執行還有包括目前的強制執行規定其實有不同的地方就是說沒有考量到我覺得唯一沒有還有一點沒有考量的就是說在強制執行法裡面其實有考量到共同的生活親屬譬如說撫養的親屬父母還有未成年子女我們一併其實要放在豁免的對象裡面那我們的保險草案裡面就沒有這件事情就沒有考量到"},{"start":295.065,"end":310.896,"text":"這個是我在基層有時候沒有我知道就是說這個委員上次溝通的時候也有提到這個概念就是說其實我們現在是做一個特別的立法從保險的角度來看主委對不起你的聲音可不可以麥克風拉近一點對不起不好意思我把聲音開大一點"},{"start":312.73,"end":341.258,"text":"我想說我剛才提過了就是說實際上有關這個需不要考量像比如強制執行考慮到共同生活的家屬這部分一開始的時候我們是有這樣想的不過我們剛才講過保單畢竟不是一個我們一般的財產而且隨著我們年紀變大其實我們應該買很多很多的保單再來就是說這個保單還要考慮到每一張的保單還要總和還要考慮到多少的這個親屬會增加非常高的成本"},{"start":342.518,"end":364.148,"text":"可是主委強制執行法他們就有在做這件事情那個是他們在做的所以剛委員也提到說我們有沒有疊床架我們希望我們保險有些家庭他一輩子他可能就只有能力買一張這樣子的保單他只有能力買這樣你剛提到我們可能有很多的保單那或許是你所認識或您個人"},{"start":365.689,"end":382.662,"text":"有這麼多的保單但是很多人一家一家這一輩子他就只有買了一張這樣子的保單如果我們有考量的更完整的話那就可以馬上照顧他未成年的子女或他真的有什麼狀況他還可以就說我父母至少每個月還有一個我撫養的父母還有一個"},{"start":384.023,"end":405.522,"text":"最基本的生活依賴對 像比如說我們這次的修法我們也仔細思考過這個問題我們也打破了過去說總和的概念我知道 這個是我覺得我支持的地方對 我們有各保單再來就是說如果每一個都要考量你這個共同生活其實這樣這又是一種判準的社會成本所以我們把那個額度呢用這個方式來解決這個問題其實這樣我覺得這是我們從保險的特別的考量我們也沒有跟隨我們強制執行的概念在進行主委"},{"start":411.207,"end":433.801,"text":"主委我還是要強調就是說我覺得我支持的是額度的豁免的計算我覺得這是一個進步的修法但我仍舊有一個失望因為我聽到的就是在豁免對象的部分你只有債務本人沒有考量他需要父母的上上下下 這可以在額度上面做一些調整會更容易達到這個效果而且可以更簡正便民"},{"start":435.366,"end":457.086,"text":"這個未來看看你們後面再怎麼去做後續的處理我覺得這一點沒有做到我覺得是可惜就是我認為為德不足的地方所以我覺得在這一塊當中如果我們修法我們沒有辦法去紓解執行法院的壓力也不能照顧到弱勢的債務人家庭那我覺得這個修法我覺得"},{"start":458.007,"end":476.097,"text":"就不夠完整我會覺得非常的可惜因為我時間剩下不多我再問另外一個TISA的部分個人儲蓄帳戶的部分也是一直一路以來我非常關心的個人儲蓄帳戶的部分有租稅的優惠上次我跟您提過您提到說會在今年上路什麼時候要上路"},{"start":476.637,"end":495.629,"text":"有關那個我們分兩階段第一個第一階段就是說我們請吉保還有各個這個我們的經過讓利的部分我們已經規劃完畢六月會六月要上路那您覺得上路之後有沒有足夠的誘因讓所有還沒加入的民眾有足夠的誘因可以加入當然誘因每個人的看法不一樣"},{"start":496.429,"end":515.022,"text":"因為我目前看到的誘因你在第二階段只有要在第二階段才會爭取財政部的租稅優惠從目前我聽到或從媒體上看到你們就是把目前有的優惠就是加在一起這是第一階段第一階段那如果第一階段你預估第一階段應該目前應該可以達到什麼樣的成效"},{"start":518.024,"end":539.504,"text":"你每一個政策出來我們就要有一個評估值你會達到什麼樣的成效如果家人不夠多或規模不夠大那我覺得這個TISA就沒有達到你預期的政策的效果嘛所以我才會提的我一直問你說誘因在哪裡你沒有足夠的誘因第一階段達不到我們就根本不用去討論到第二階段啦"},{"start":541.668,"end":557.84,"text":"這個跟委員報告就是第一階段是我們能做的我們就已經趕快盡快來做第二階段我想這個難度我想這個委員也非常清楚我想就是主要租稅的優惠要有社會共識所以這部分我們在持續努力中"},{"start":558.74,"end":575.035,"text":"社會共識本來就是公部門要持續去溝通要有足夠的誘因那這可能不是你一個單位不是金管會可以包括財政部來配合我們跟財政部也非常非常密切的溝通你跟他溝通那他有答應你說要後面的租稅優惠要達到這個是賴政府卓院長的重要目標在財務會重要的目標政策"},{"start":582.301,"end":599.948,"text":"租稅的專業在他們但是我們政策的部分呢我們還在真的要在比這做周詳的溝通那我想說一有結果我們會兩方會跟大家做報告主委那我還是要問就是說你的你未來第一階段用戶數跟資金規模的指標你的最低你會不會設最低門檻"},{"start":601.807,"end":629.282,"text":"那你預估6月份要上線那你有沒有思考到多少人或多少金額你要達到預期目標是什麼對你的同仁應該有一個要求吧這我們最近因為我們制度剛建制完畢還有就等於說它裡面的一些的內容物還要請我們再跟業者來協商這協商完畢我們就會訂出這樣的一個預期目標這樣子 主委我支持TESA我覺得這個是對國家來說是很重要對一個人"},{"start":630.422,"end":657.485,"text":"打拼了一輩子然後有一個長期穩定的儲蓄章很重要所以我一直在提誘因我希望你這個政策可以成功它是要怕部會的結合所以我認真認為我希望看到一個完整的報告你第一階段應該有多少資金規模你預估有多少人我後面才能再追說人不夠是因為你誘因不足那你財政部就要多支持租稅優惠我就幫你要求財政部支持所以我希望看到一個完整的報告好不好"},{"start":657.705,"end":659.408,"text":"可以 可以 謝謝沒問題 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝主委接下來請代委員會員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":370,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時8分）謝謝召委，我可不可以請主委？"],["主席：請主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝主委。因為上一次的公聽會你沒有來，是副主委在現場，對於這一次金管會提出的修正草案，我仍舊要表達一個支持，但是我也有一個失望，修法增訂介入權在第一百二十三條之二當中，我們很完整地讓符合一定條件的債務人親屬，在債務人清償債務之後可以承接原來有的保險契約，事實上，這樣的作法也是兼顧債務人與債權人的權益，清償完之後，他的親屬還可以承接原來有的保險契約。但是對於豁免執行的規定，我在上一次的公聽會也有表達我跟很多學者專家的主張是一樣的，我認為我們的修法仍舊有許多為德不卒，甚至在修法過程當中，因為我們現在也有強制執行法，是不是有疊床架屋的狀況？我上次已經表達過，我覺得我們越晚修法應該會思考得越純熟，如果還有地方沒有再把它補上去，我會覺得非常的可惜。畢竟一個法要完成修法要經過這麼多次的公聽會，這麼多的討論，才有辦法通過行政院院會，才有辦法送進來。所以我待會提到的一個失望的部分，我還是希望主委後續如果在法的部分可以加強，我們再來做後續的處理。","回顧這次修法的背景，最高法院在111年12月作出裁定允許保單可以抵債務之後，這類的強制執行造成法院很多書記官的負荷，因為很多人保單非常非常的多，他必須要一張一張去做確認。金管會為了保障強制執行的債務人得以維持基本的保險保障，同時也期待提供法院第一線強制執行人員可以有一個執法的標準，才會提出這一次的修法。請問主委，對於這一次的修法，你覺得能夠達到原來預期的信心嗎？原來這一次修法的目標，你覺得通過公聽會到目前看到你們的版本，還有這麼多委員的建議，你覺得有辦法達到你的目標嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想修法如果能夠通過，一定能夠產生非常顯著的效果，但是是否能夠完全解決問題，當然不太可能，因為有那麼多的樣態。但是我們可以看到，比如，我們講最簡單的，先把健康傷害排除，大部分的險種……"],["李委員彥秀：把什麼排除？"],["彭主任委員金隆：健康和傷害險，把它排除，再來……"],["李委員彥秀：因為有一些是附約。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們訂了一個合理的門檻值，維持基本保障以後，又可以大量排除一些現在在進行中的這些保單，再來，因為有了這個法案以後，大家就知道未來某些保險很有可能會成為未來強制執行的時候，某種程度也會減少未來可能的程度，我想這都是我們修法積極。但是修法確實是……剛才有委員問我是贊成、反對，其實講得比較精準應該是有條件，我個人認為是有條件的否定說，確實，有些情況完全支持肯定或否定也不夠實際，我的意思是確實有些狀況，比如剛才有人主張小額終老保險有其社會政策性，有人又主張一些比較特殊的狀況，比如弱勢的這些狀況，這個都可以透過未來我們在修法的調整過程當中尋求共識。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，這個就是我要強調的，未來在修法，我們已經在修法了，為什麼不可以一次到位？這個是我要談到的，不符合豁免標準的其他各項保險契約的解約債權，現在依強制執行法的相關規定會予以執行，我們修法的用意到底是什麼？修法其實不能只是自掃門前雪，我們希望包括把強制執行法沒有考量到的，或者是我們怎麼樣把這兩個法思考得更完整，或是針對不足的地方，我們把兩邊彙整，一次到位。無論是保險法豁免的執行，以及目前的強制執行規定，其實有不同的地方，我覺得唯一還有一點沒有考量到的就是，在強制執行法裡面有考量到共同生活親屬，比如扶養親屬、父母還有未成年子女，我們要一併放在豁免對象裡面，但是我們的保險法草案裡面就沒有這件事情，沒有考量到。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這主要是我們……"],["李委員彥秀：我在基層有時候……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我知道，委員上次溝通的時候也有提到這個概念，實際上，我們現在是做一個特別的立法，從保險的角度來看……"],["李委員彥秀：主委，對不起，你的麥克風可不可拿近一點、拉近一點？對不起！"],["彭主任委員金隆：不好意思，我把聲音開大一點，我剛才提過了，實際上有關於強制執行需不需要考慮到共同生活的家屬，這部分一開始的時候，我們是有這樣想的，不過我們剛才講過，保單畢竟不是一個一般的財產，而且隨著我們年紀變大，其實我們應該買了很多很多的保單。再來，這個保單還要考慮到，每一張的保單還要總和、還要考慮到多少親屬，會增加非常高的成本，所以我的意思是希望……"],["李委員彥秀：可是主委，我們強制執行法就有在做這件事情。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，那個是他們在做的，所以剛才委員也提到我們有沒有疊床架屋，我們希望保險是針對……"],["李委員彥秀：主委，有些家庭一輩子可能就只有能力買一張這樣子的保單，你剛剛提到我們可能有很多的保單，或許是你所認識的或你個人有這麼多的保單，但是很多人一家這一輩子就只有買了一張這樣子的保單，如果我們有考量得更完整的話，就可以馬上照顧他未成年的子女，或他真的有什麼狀況，還可以想說父母至少每個月在我撫養的部分還有一個最基本的生活依賴……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對啊！所以跟委員報告一下，像我們這次的修法，我們也仔細思考過這個問題，我們也打破了過去總和的概念，所以……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，這個是我支持的地方。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我們就各保單。再來，如果每一個都要考量共同生活，其實這又是一種判準的社會成本，所以我們把那個額度用這個方式來解決這個問題，我覺得這是我們從保險的特別的考量，我們也沒有跟隨強制執行的概念在進行。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，我還是要強調，我支持的是額度豁免計算，我覺得這是一個進步的修法，但我仍舊有一個失望，因為我聽到的就是在豁免對象的部分，你只有債務本人，沒有考量到他需要扶養的上上下下、老老小小。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這可以在額度上面做一些調整，會更容易達到這個效果，而且可以更簡政便民。"],["李委員彥秀：未來您後面再看看怎麼去做後續的處理，這一點沒有做到，我覺得是可惜，我認為是為德不卒的地方，所以我覺得在這一塊當中，如果我們修法沒有辦法去紓解執行法院的壓力，也不能照顧到弱勢的債務人家庭，我覺得這個修法就不夠完整，我會覺得非常地可惜。","因為我時間剩下不多，我就問另外一個TISA的部分，個人儲蓄帳戶的部分也是一路以來我非常關心的，個人儲蓄帳戶的部分有租稅的優惠，上次我跟您提過，您提到會在今年上路，什麼時候要上路？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有關那部分，我們分兩階段，第一階段，請集保還有各個金融機構讓利的部分，我們已經規劃完畢，6月會上線。"],["李委員彥秀：6月要上路。您覺得上路之後，有沒有足夠的誘因讓所有還沒加入的民眾，有足夠的誘因可以加入？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然誘因每個人的看法不一樣……"],["李委員彥秀：因為我目前看到的誘因，在第二階段才會爭取財政部的租稅優惠，從目前我聽到或從媒體上看到的，你們就是把目前有的優惠加在一起。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是第一階段。"],["李委員彥秀：第一階段嘛？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對。"],["李委員彥秀：如果是第一階段，目前你預估第一階段應該可以達到什麼樣的成效？每一個政策出來，你們就要有一個評估值，你會達到什麼樣的成效？"],["彭主任委員金隆：第一個，我想這個我們……"],["李委員彥秀：如果加入的人不夠多或規模不夠大，我覺得TISA就沒有達到你預期的政策效果。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然！就是我想……"],["李委員彥秀：我一直問你誘因在哪、誘因在哪裡，你沒有足夠的誘因，假如第一階段達不到，我們就根本不用去討論到第二階段啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，第一階段是我們能做的，我們已經儘快來做；第二階段的難度，我想委員也非常清楚，主要是租稅的優惠要有社會共識，所以這部分我們在持續努力中，對不對？"],["李委員彥秀：社會共識本來就是公部門要持續去溝通，要有足夠的誘因……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對！我們從來沒有停止過。"],["李委員彥秀：這可能不是你一個單位、不是金管會可以處理，包括財政部來配合。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對、對！我們跟財政部也非常非常密切地溝通這部分……"],["李委員彥秀：你跟他溝通，他有答應你後面的租稅優惠要達到……這個是賴政府、卓院長在財委會重要的目標政策。"],["彭主任委員金隆：租稅的專業在他們，但是政策的部分，我們真的要再做比較周詳地溝通，我想一有結果，兩方會跟大家做報告。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，我還是要問，未來第一階段的用戶數跟資金規模的指標，你會不會設最低門檻？"],["彭主任委員金隆：你是指加入TISA……"],["李委員彥秀：你預估6月份要上線，有沒有思考到多少人或多少金額，你要達到預期目標是什麼？對你的同仁應該有一個要求吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為我們最近制度剛建置完畢，等於說裡面的一些內容物還需要我們跟這些業者來協商，等協商完畢，我們就會訂出預期的目標。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，我支持TISA，我覺得這個對國家來說是很重要……"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝、謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：一個人打拼了一輩子，有一個長期穩定的儲蓄帳務是很重要的，所以我一直在提誘因，我也希望這個政策可以成功……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的！我們也是這樣認為。會！我們持續爭取。"],["李委員彥秀：它需要跨部會的結合，所以我仍舊如此認為，我希望看到一份完整的報告，第一階段應該有多少資金規模，預估有多少人，我後面才能再追說人不夠是因為你誘因不足，財政部就要多支持租稅優惠，我就會幫你要求財政部支持……"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員提的這個建議。"],["李委員彥秀：所以我希望看到一份完整的報告，好不好？謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以、可以。沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱代）：謝謝委員，謝謝主委。","接下來請賴委員惠員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","黃珊珊","羅智強","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","黃國昌","陳玉珍","王世堅","林思銘","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","徐富癸","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「保險法」15案：一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員\n王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人\n分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案；二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第\n一百二十三條之一條文草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等\n19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百\n七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案","agenda_id":"1144301_00006"}}},{"id":"160767","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160767","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423696d6423f5d87e10c58b6df88a6e7dffcac2100e055cb5940310bd954f519c80315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:05:00 - 10:18:15","影片長度":"00:13:15","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場(廠)墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T10:05:00+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:18:15+08:00","duration":795,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.4697187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.71721875,"end":11.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.51846875,"end":13.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.09971875,"end":20.550968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.02346875,"end":29.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.950343750000002,"end":31.367843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.11034375,"end":32.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.46471875,"end":34.135343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.20284375,"end":34.236593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.236593750000004,"end":34.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.67534375,"end":35.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.56971875,"end":35.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.65409375,"end":35.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.95784375,"end":38.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.42596875,"end":37.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.64096875,"end":54.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.049718750000004,"end":43.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.27721875,"end":44.445968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.97596875,"end":60.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.28721875,"end":62.14784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.53596875,"end":72.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.11659375,"end":77.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.95971875000001,"end":79.83284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.72721875,"end":91.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.78034375,"end":111.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.00284375000001,"end":100.74096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.96284375,"end":129.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.03596875,"end":134.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.40221875,"end":138.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.69284375,"end":150.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.18471875,"end":154.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.41596875000002,"end":156.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.96846875,"end":159.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.85409375,"end":162.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.97596875000002,"end":172.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.20221875000001,"end":175.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.61534375000002,"end":177.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.26909375000002,"end":184.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.82909375,"end":190.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.60034375,"end":210.15846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.52971875,"end":229.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.21034375000002,"end":229.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.34534375,"end":229.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.37471875000003,"end":234.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.13346875000002,"end":240.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.83721875,"end":274.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.99221875,"end":290.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.66909375,"end":298.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.38096875,"end":328.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.44846875,"end":298.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.72784375000003,"end":320.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.02721875000003,"end":322.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.15784375000004,"end":367.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.83971875000003,"end":332.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.86846875000003,"end":338.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.79971875,"end":346.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.90596875,"end":378.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.70596875,"end":385.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.26596875,"end":401.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.02284375000005,"end":404.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.11534375,"end":412.40534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.21971875,"end":425.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.23034375000003,"end":425.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.29346875000005,"end":429.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.20846875,"end":432.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.83659375,"end":435.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.89971875000003,"end":436.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.82346875,"end":445.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.90784375000004,"end":438.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.12159375000005,"end":461.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.41909375,"end":474.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.37034375,"end":482.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.11159375000005,"end":485.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.76096875,"end":501.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.38284375,"end":504.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.44159375000004,"end":510.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.90471875000003,"end":521.0634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.87346875,"end":534.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.27284375,"end":534.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.25971875,"end":534.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.36096875,"end":569.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.51284375,"end":534.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.9809687500001,"end":563.5547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.3647187500001,"end":565.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.56221875,"end":570.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.5703437500001,"end":574.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.55284375,"end":577.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.11346875,"end":584.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.5859687500001,"end":581.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.8003437500001,"end":589.7278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.5209687500001,"end":605.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.26596875,"end":612.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.86784375,"end":613.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.5890937500001,"end":615.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.7109687500001,"end":619.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.34346875,"end":619.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.18721875,"end":620.6259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.3178437500001,"end":628.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.6003437500001,"end":622.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.95034375,"end":624.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.1059687500001,"end":629.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.7722187500001,"end":639.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.7922187500001,"end":645.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.19159375,"end":647.3897187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.5034687500001,"end":649.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.38096875,"end":651.0515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.7097187500001,"end":652.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.02596875,"end":654.2409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.6459687500001,"end":671.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.47034375,"end":672.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.1240937500002,"end":679.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.2834687500001,"end":686.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.0334687500001,"end":686.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.26971875,"end":686.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.3372187500001,"end":686.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.37096875,"end":686.9953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.9953437500001,"end":694.9265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.90659375,"end":689.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.27284375,"end":702.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":702.03096875,"end":712.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":708.44346875,"end":720.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.3572187500001,"end":720.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.40784375,"end":720.4753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.4753437500001,"end":720.6609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.6609687499999,"end":720.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.67784375,"end":720.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.72846875,"end":735.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":721.55534375,"end":725.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.44471875,"end":728.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":736.5403437500001,"end":748.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":748.55534375,"end":756.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":757.98846875,"end":761.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":761.5659687500001,"end":767.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":768.19784375,"end":786.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":776.66909375,"end":779.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":780.04409375,"end":789.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":789.8147187500001,"end":793.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":790.03409375,"end":791.2490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":793.8815937500001,"end":794.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":794.7422187500001,"end":794.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":794.96159375,"end":795.4172187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.013,"end":11.534,"text":"主席好我們請洪部長請洪部長"},{"start":19.147,"end":30.124,"text":"主委好部長好部長我請問一下我們今天內政委員會正在協商制定紀念日及節日實施條例的草案嘛您支持嗎這個勞動節放假的話"},{"start":33.646,"end":58.334,"text":"勞動節 勞動節放假五一嘛對我想現在五一其實你個人支持嗎應該指的 因為五一勞工現在其實已經放假對 我知道指的應該是五一統一放吧對對對那五一統一放我想行政院其實已經有說了我們目標在下個年度希望就能夠來實施這個五一的統一放所以你也是支持嗎當然那我再接一下 我們台大剛剛我看陳昭之委員也有問這一題就是說"},{"start":62.656,"end":79.61,"text":"他們進行勞動節的出勤意願他們叫員工來填單那出勤表上原則上都是要上班根本看不到要補休還是要加班根本就沒有一個休假的問卷你覺得這個在勞動部的標準裡面算是合理的嗎"},{"start":81.743,"end":109.878,"text":"應該說其實我們有看了這個相關的書件書單那確實目前看如果按照這個書單來看的話他可能比較沒有辦法充分的讓老公朋友來表達他們的想法跟意願那部長那這個部分請你們再多加的注意好不好我們已經在4月28號已經有發函了然後就是發函給台北市政府那希望台北市政府真的這部分是應該去把它們理清楚然後給予相關的檢查好的"},{"start":110.658,"end":137.559,"text":"那我再請教部長我們總統蔡院長在4月22號開了綠燈要你們開始送解凍案那按照部長您在社群發的文我們看到我們勞動部還有所屬機關在4月23日下午2點50分到下午6點01分這短短191分鐘總共發出了75件的解凍的電子文件那平均不到3分鐘就一份解凍報告"},{"start":138.76,"end":155.73,"text":"那我就很納悶 這有三個可能第一個可能 我認為最有可能就是說其實這些早就寫好了 只是放著讓我們這一些你們政治議題的謠言素材都能夠累積差不多再送但是後來"},{"start":157.511,"end":183.869,"text":"這個因為最近被公務人員踢爆發現輿論扛不住了 昨天早上才開綠燈但是啦 你們不是先例文化部之前就有傳出內部的訊息很明確的就是先寫好壓著啦如果是這個那當然也就說明一件事情就是我們政府以達到政治目的為首要的目的說在乎人民的權益根本就把它放在一邊而已嘛"},{"start":184.91,"end":209.8,"text":"但這是第一個可能那另外一個可能就是公務員加班趕監配合如果是這個我就要請教部長這個有沒有壓榨公務人員的這個嫌疑我問你再回答啦那最後一個就是濫魚充數濫血先遞貨再說並向委員會施壓意思說解凍案我已經送了那報告這個內容如果委員覺得不行我們"},{"start":210.62,"end":229.498,"text":"又開始要造謠就是說我們立委在阻擋這個解凍案如果是這樣的話我跟部長講就你們算盤還是打錯了那解凍案我們還是會專業的立委我們還是會照程序來審這個來審核啦那部長你覺得是哪一個好"},{"start":230.439,"end":259.343,"text":"跟邱委員說明實際的狀況都跟你剛剛講的三種情況是不同的那是什麼其實勞動部歷年來我們一直都是採用一案一文的方式來辦理解凍程序而且過去其實我們都是要求本部和相關的所屬的解凍案會在同一個日期裡面發文所以過去也都是大家同一天發文就是等到一聲令下沒有命令就不會發對吧"},{"start":260.143,"end":275.659,"text":"我跟委員說明過去就是要同一天發文那同一天發文的原因有幾個第一個是因為避免漏案的狀況第二個也希望能夠爭取跟確保到時候在立法院的時候是同一個時間來做審查因為你如果這個A案"},{"start":276.62,"end":298.771,"text":"一個月前發B案幾個月這個幾個後發其實零零散散的發很有可能到時候在立院的審查是分開的所以是希望到時候在立法院是這個同一時間來安排審查所以過去就是來要求是同一個日期的發文所以今年這個解凍計畫的發文方式其實跟往年都是相同的第二個"},{"start":299.491,"end":319.812,"text":"其實今年我想委員知道因為今年的預算的審查波折比較多所以其實總統是到3月21號的時候才公布這個總預算那我們其實發文的時間大概在4月20幾號其實中間大概一個月左右的時間我想這個時間時程應該屬於正常的範圍我們並沒有拖延所以該回到該委員說的幾種狀況我跟委員說明"},{"start":322.695,"end":340.255,"text":"我們其實沒有刻意要壓軌甚至政治上的盤算你不要再講了啦因為我們也聽懂了我的意思是說你要真的聽懂我知道 我知道我的意思是說我希望不要有太多的政治的那個因素在裡面沒有不要太多政治的操作在裡面"},{"start":340.876,"end":347.618,"text":"但是我最不希望的就是看到你們這個壓榨公務人員或亂寫報告沒有這個事情那就下一題那112年的時候勞工的產檢價還有賠產價還有賠產減價預算編不夠只編了4200萬元左右當年度實際申請的7178萬裡面大概少了3000萬左右當時發現4200萬可能在7月就會用完"},{"start":368.024,"end":377.798,"text":"但是當時預算是沒有編購的卻沒有影響112年新手爸媽的權益申請還是非常的順利部長知道112年勞動部是怎麼做的嗎"},{"start":379.712,"end":401.802,"text":"當時就知道是當時是有跟舊寶做這個周轉但是這並不是一個常態的做法並不是過去有過這樣的周轉的案例未來就是想怎麼刪怎麼砍都沒有都是OK並不是這個狀況甚至那時候立法院也請我們檢討當時周轉的狀況所以周轉我們不能視為一個常態的正常的做法"},{"start":403.506,"end":431.557,"text":"對 沒有出來 然後呢所以我們才認為並不是過去有發生過周轉所以現在怎麼刪怎麼動都是OK的 並不是這樣所以你們現在 你現在的意思就是說我們現在編的預算是想希望一次編購然後一次不要有不足的部分不要去跟其他的預算科目來借錢這樣的意思嗎預算的編類當然都是希望能夠編購很少會有希望預算編不夠的"},{"start":433.868,"end":444.642,"text":"或刻意變不夠啊對啊 112年就不夠啦對 當年是有那個狀況所以後來其實用周轉可是這個周轉其實包括立法院的預算中心也叫我們要檢討"},{"start":446.175,"end":473.654,"text":"也叫我們要檢討所以我們不把因為可以周轉所以我預算想怎麼編就怎麼編想怎麼刪就怎麼刪想怎麼動就怎麼動並不是這樣子的就算過去有過這樣子的做法可是那個並不是該設定為的常態正常的常態所以我希望就是說你們一次把這個該用的錢因為你們的基礎是應該是以去年的這個金額來做一個衡量嘛對不對那我在想這個補助總共七天"},{"start":474.474,"end":500.184,"text":"第一天到第五天的這個薪資是我們僱主付的嘛然後第六第七是跟我們勞動部補助來申請那僱主當然是要先墊付對不對然後墊付完了之後才跟來請款然後原則上七天的錢僱主要給完新手爸媽以後才能夠跟勞動部來請款所以新手爸媽的錢這個僱主早就付了剩下就是應該是僱主跟我們勞動部的關係嘛"},{"start":502.443,"end":519.945,"text":"對不對 是勞動部跟僱主的事情因為僱主已經先出了嘛跟委員說明這個不能這樣看因為僱主也是先知道第六天跟第七天勞動部會給予補助所以如果第六天跟第七天勞動部的薪資補助的錢卡住的話也很有可能會影響僱主"},{"start":522.75,"end":540.384,"text":"讓勞工去做產檢架或賠償檢架的意願所以這是聯動的關係並不是說他是來他會先付然後這邊勞工跟僱主之間的關係並不是這樣子看的他是先 僱主是先出嘛你講的意思當然是說你希望說這筆錢 這筆預算都是放這裡"},{"start":542.746,"end":570.002,"text":"錢是夠的嘛 對不對你不希望說不夠的時候那我們在之前我們講到說我們今年編了八千 九千八千五百四十萬嘛 對不對然後你們把九千七百一十四萬的那個整個預算是九千七百一十四萬嘛刪了八百萬不是我們刪的 是我不是說你刪的對我沒有出來我是我們刪的沒錯然後總共"},{"start":571.621,"end":589.448,"text":"剪下來的話 我們大概還有七千多萬嘛 對不對三除八百萬 然後凍結將近兩千萬兩千萬凍結先不講 三除歸三除嘛三除八百萬 然後凍結將近兩千萬對啊 那剪下來是不是還有八千多萬"},{"start":590.72,"end":615.174,"text":"七千七百四十萬跟委員說明原本九千多萬裡面有部分是剛才說的這個薪資補貼對 其他的部分沒錯那其他部署其實我們也要辦理很多性評你現在是把九千七百一十四萬然後三個八百萬放在統一欄裡面嘛那這個不管不是 還有包括兩千萬的凍結啊對 你都是放在統一欄嘛 對不對那個委員整個項目是九千多萬對"},{"start":620.27,"end":644.77,"text":"那刪了八百萬動了兩千多萬這加起來就已經接近大概兩千七百多萬兩千八百萬還有大概七千萬左右所以這個扣掉的影響其實都超過原本我們編列八千多萬但是你產檢價相關的你凍結不能這樣算啊對不對因為你一定要執行到他當初我跟你講他為什麼會跟你凍結你知道嗎為什麼會凍結你知道嗎"},{"start":649.47,"end":670.839,"text":"這個我還可以再提醒對當初就是我幫你複習一下就是為什麼被凍結20%原因就是因為近五年違反勞基法的案件有3.5萬件勞動部沒有善盡監督的責任那裡面特別提出來就是說高工時的問題僱主延長勞工工時但是沒有"},{"start":672.099,"end":684.504,"text":"報復加班費再來就是職場性騷擾防範效果不彰長期都有變預算但是問題一堆他們是希望你們把這事情做好所以才會去凍結預算凍結不等於刪除你懂嗎凍結不等於刪除"},{"start":687.205,"end":701.702,"text":"但是還是會在預算的執行上面產生的不確定性他只是不確定其實在以前我們以往的慣例裡面所有有凍結的預算如果都是照你這種邏輯的話那大家都不是都不用做事"},{"start":702.182,"end":718.748,"text":"如果凍結就一定可以用的話我想從貴院的角度來說凍結就不用凍結凍結當然是在預算執行上面產生不確定性解凍的條件有好幾種希望你提出報告或者是說你已經執行到幾趴之後我們再來提凍結"},{"start":720.368,"end":735.375,"text":"對不對 凍結是事實凍結會對預算的執行產生不確定性也是事實我沒有講說它不是事實我現在講的是事實沒錯但是如果以往的我們的預算案所有的預算案的凍結案來講是不是因為你執行"},{"start":736.596,"end":754.843,"text":"的效果跟沒有達到預期的效果或者是說我們希望我們這個單位再提出新的一個辦法來改進這些你只要提報告出來一般都會解凍這個案子裡面他的解凍結的理由坦白說他講的也不是產檢價跟賠產檢價的執行"},{"start":758.032,"end":774.071,"text":"他講的是跟其他的勞基法其他的事情這也是讓我們覺得困惑的事情說如果是我們在產檢架、賠產檢架過去有執行不妥當的地方那你在這個案子裡面做出指教跟批評要我們把產檢架跟賠產檢架的執行做得更好"},{"start":774.651,"end":792.415,"text":"那這個當然我們會來接受因為產檢加賠償減價 至於有問題可是你拉了一個別的事情來凍結產檢加跟賠償減價讓新手的爸媽得到幫助的機會可能產生很多不確定性那你 這個案子你提解凍了沒有我們都提了 我們都送了好 那我們到時候再來審啦謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":356,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時5分）主席好，我們請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。部長，我請問一下，今天內政委員會正在協商制定紀念日及節日實施條例草案，勞動節放假的話，您支持嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：什麼？"],["邱委員鎮軍：勞動節放假。"],["洪部長申翰：五一嘛。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對。"],["洪部長申翰：我想現在五一其實……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你個人支持嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：因為現在五一勞工其實已經放假了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，我知道，我是說其他的。"],["洪部長申翰：你指的應該是五一統一放假吧？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對。"],["洪部長申翰：五一統一放假行政院其實已經有說了，我們的目標希望在下個年度就能夠實施五一統一放假。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你也是支持嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我再建議一下，剛剛我看陳昭姿委員也有問這一題，臺大進行勞動節出勤意願的調查，他們叫員工填單，但出勤表原則上都是要上班，根本看不到要補休還是要加班，對不對？根本就沒有休假的選項，你覺得這個在勞動部的標準裡面算是合理的嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：其實我們有看了這個相關的書件、書單，確實，目前如果按照這個書單來看的話，它可能比較沒有辦法充分地讓勞工朋友來表達他們的想法跟意願。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，這個部分請你們再多加注意，好不好？勞工的權益不能……"],["洪部長申翰：我們在4月28號已經有發函給臺北市政府，希望臺北市政府針對這部分釐清，並給予相關的檢查。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好的。我再請教部長，卓榮泰院長在4月22號開了綠燈，要你們開始送解凍案。按照部長在社群媒體發的文，我們看到勞動部還有所屬機關在4月23日下午2點50分到下午6點01分，這短短191分鐘總共發出了75件的解凍電子文件，平均不到3分鐘就有一份解凍報告。我就很納悶，這有三個可能，第一個也是我認為最有可能的，就是其實這些早就寫好了，只是放著，讓一些政治議題的謠言、素材都能夠累積得差不多了再送，但是因為最近被公務人員踢爆，發現輿論扛不住了，卓院長才開綠燈。但你們不是先例，文化部之前就有傳出內部的訊息，很明確地顯示就是先寫好壓著，如果是這樣，當然也就說明一件事情，就是政府以達到政治目的為首要的目的，說是在乎人民的權益，但根本就是把它放在一邊而已，這是第一個可能。另外一個可能就是公務員加班趕件配合，如果是這個，我就要請教部長，這有沒有壓榨公務人員的嫌疑？我問完你再回答。最後一個就是濫竽充數，亂寫，先丟了再說，變相向委員會施壓，意思就是解凍案已經送了，報告內容如果委員覺得不行，你們又要開始造謠說我們立委在阻擋解凍案，如果是這樣的話，我跟部長講，你們算盤還是打錯了，身為專業的立委，解凍案我們還是會照程序來審核。部長，你覺得是哪一個？"],["洪部長申翰：跟邱委員說明，實際的狀況都跟你剛剛講的三種情況是不同的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：其實勞動部歷年來一直都是採用一案一文的方式來辦理解凍程序，而且過去我們都是要求本部和相關所屬的解凍案在同一日發文，所以過去大家也都是在同一天發文。"],["邱委員鎮軍：就是等到一聲令下才發，沒有命令就不會發，對嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，過去就是要同一天發文，同一天發文的原因有幾個，第一個，避免漏案的狀況發生。第二個，也希望能夠爭取跟確保到時候在立法院是同一個時間來做審查，因為如果A案一個月前發，B案幾個月後發，其實零零散散的發，很有可能到時候在立法院的審查是分開的。我們希望到時候在立法院是同一時間來安排審查，所以過去就是要求同一日期發文，今年解凍計畫的發文方式其實跟往年都是相同的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。"],["洪部長申翰：第二個，我想委員也知道，因為今年預算的審查波折比較多，所以其實總統是到3月21號的時候才公布總預算。我們發文的時間大概是在四月二十幾號，中間大概一個月左右的時間，我想這個時間、時程應該屬於正常的範圍，我們並沒有拖延，所以回到剛剛委員說的幾種狀況……"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，部長，你講得很清楚了……"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，我們其實沒有刻意要壓文，甚至政治上的盤算……"],["邱委員鎮軍：好了，你不要再講了，因為我們也聽懂了，我的意思是說……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，你要真的聽懂。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道，我的意思是，我希望不要有太多的政治因素在裡面，不要有太多的政治操作在裡面。"],["洪部長申翰：沒有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是我最不希望看到的就是你們壓榨公務人員或亂寫報告。"],["洪部長申翰：沒有這個事情。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，下一題。112年的時候勞工的產檢假、陪產假，還有陪產檢假預算編不夠，只編了4,200萬元左右，在當年度實際申請的7,178萬裡面，大概少了3,000萬左右，當時發現4,200萬可能在7月就會用完，但是當時預算是沒有編夠的，卻沒有影響112年新手爸媽的權益，申請還是非常的順利，部長知道112年勞動部是怎麼做的嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當時就知道有跟就保做周轉。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對。"],["洪部長申翰：但是這並不是一個常態的作法，並不是過去有過這樣的周轉案例，未來就是想怎麼刪、怎麼砍都是OK的，並不是這樣。甚至那時候立法院也請我們檢討當時周轉的狀況，所以周轉我們不能視為一個常態的正常作法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，沒有錯，然後呢？"],["洪部長申翰：我們認為並不是過去有發生過周轉，所以現在怎麼刪、怎麼凍都是OK的，並不是這樣。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你現在的意思是，現在編的預算希望一次編夠，不要有不足的部分，也不要去跟其他的預算科目借錢，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：預算的編列當然都是希望能夠編夠，很少會有希望預算編不夠或刻意編不夠的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，但112年就不夠了……"],["洪部長申翰：對，當年是有……"],["邱委員鎮軍：113年……"],["洪部長申翰：當年是有那個狀況，所以後來用周轉的方式，可是這個周轉其實包括立法院預算中心也叫我們要檢討，所以不是因為可以周轉，預算想怎麼編就怎麼編，想怎麼刪就怎麼刪，想怎麼凍就怎麼凍，並不是這樣子的，就算過去有過這樣的作法，可是那個並不該被設定為一個正常的常態。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是正常的啦，所以我也希望你們一次把該用的錢編足，因為你們的基礎應該是以去年的金額來做衡量嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個補助總共7天，第1天到第5天的薪資是雇主付的，第6天、第7天是跟勞動部來申請補助。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：雇主當然是要先墊付，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：墊付完了之後才……"],["洪部長申翰：來請款。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，原則上7天的錢雇主要給新手爸媽以後才能夠跟勞動部請款，所以給新手爸媽的錢雇主早就付了，剩下的應該是雇主跟勞動部的關係，對不對？是勞動部跟雇主的事情，因為雇主已經先出了嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，這個不能這樣看，因為雇主也是先知道第6天跟第7天勞動部會給予補助，所以如果第6天跟第7天勞動部薪資補助的錢卡住的話，很有可能會影響雇主讓勞工去做產檢假或陪產檢假的意願，這是連動的關係，並不是說他會先付，然後就變成只是勞動部跟雇主之間的關係，並不是這樣子看的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！我現在講的是雇主先出嘛，你講的意思當然是你希望這筆錢、這筆預算都是放著，錢是夠的，對不對？你也不希望不夠，之前我們講到今年編了8,540萬，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，整個預算是9,714萬嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：刪了800萬。"],["洪部長申翰：不是我們刪的，是貴院刪的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，沒有錯，是我們刪的沒錯。總共減下來的話，你們大概還有七千多萬，對不對？還有7,740萬。"],["洪部長申翰：刪除800萬，然後凍結將近2,000萬。"],["邱委員鎮軍：2,000萬凍結的部分先不講，刪除歸刪除嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：刪除800萬，然後凍結將近2,000萬。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，那減下來是不是還有7,740萬？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，原本九千多萬裡面有部分是剛才說的薪資補貼。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，其他的部分，沒錯。"],["洪部長申翰：其他補助我們也要辦理……很多性平或是勞動部平等的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦，你現在是把9,714萬，然後刪了800萬就放在同一欄裡面嘛，這個不管……"],["洪部長申翰：不是，還有包括2,000萬的凍結啊！"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，你都是放在同一欄嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，整個項目是九千多萬……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對。"],["洪部長申翰：刪了800萬，凍了兩千多萬，這加起來就已經接近兩千八百萬……"],["邱委員鎮軍：還有大概七千萬左右。"],["洪部長申翰：對，所以這個扣掉的影響其實都超過了原本我們編列八千多萬，但是產檢假、陪產檢假相關的補助……"],["邱委員鎮軍：凍結不能這樣算啊，對不對？因為你一定要執行到……我跟你講，當初為什麼會凍結，你知道嗎？為什麼會凍結，你知道嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員可以再提醒。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我幫你複習一下，當初為什麼被凍結20%？原因就是因為近5年違反勞基法的案件有3.5萬件，勞動部沒有善盡監督的責任，裡面特別提出來，高工時的問題，雇主延長勞工工時，但是沒有報付加班費；再來就是職場性騷擾防範效果不彰，長期都有編預算，但是問題一堆，他們是希望你們把這事情做好，所以才會去凍結預算。凍結不等於刪除，你懂嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：凍結不等於刪除……"],["邱委員鎮軍：只是希望……"],["洪部長申翰：但是凍結還是會在預算的執行上面產生不確定性。"],["邱委員鎮軍：只是不確定，其實……"],["洪部長申翰：還是會有不確定性。"],["邱委員鎮軍：在以前，我們以往的慣例裡面，所有凍結的預算，如果都是照你這種邏輯的話，那大家是不是都不用做事？"],["洪部長申翰：如果凍結就一定可以用的話，我想從貴院的角度來說，其實凍結就不用凍結。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，不是，那個不太一樣。"],["洪部長申翰：凍結，當然會在預算的執行上面產生不確定性啊！"],["邱委員鎮軍：凍結是希望……其實凍結解凍的條件有好幾種，是希望你提出報告，或者是說你已經執行到百分之幾之後，我們再來提解凍，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，凍結是事實，凍結會對預算的執行產生不確定性也是事實。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦，我沒有講它不是事實，我現在講的是事實沒錯，但是如果以以往我們預算案、所有預算的凍結案來講，因為你執行沒有達到預期的效果，或者是我們希望單位再提出新的辦法來改進，這些你只要提報告出來，一般都會解凍。"],["洪部長申翰：我們這個案子裡面，坦白說凍結的理由也不是產檢假跟陪產檢假的執行，他講的是勞基法其他的事情，這也是讓我們覺得困惑的。如果是針對我們在產檢假跟陪產檢假過去有執行不妥當的地方，你在這個案子裡面做出指教跟批評，要我們把產檢假跟陪產檢假的執行做得更好，這個我們當然會接受，因為產檢假跟陪產檢假執行有問題……"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦，我時間到了……"],["洪部長申翰：可是你拉了一個別的事情來凍結產檢假跟陪產檢假，讓新手的爸媽……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我問你啦……"],["洪部長申翰：得到幫助的機會，可能產生很多不確定性……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為時間到了，這個案子，你提解凍了沒？"],["洪部長申翰：我們都提了，都送了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，那我們到時候再來審。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：謝謝。報告委員會，也在這邊作宣告：我們等王正旭委員詢答結束之後才休息。","接下來請王育敏委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}},{"id":"160766","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160766","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369384df99cab2aea6f0ca66b6f3bc7c703c2100e055cb59403cd63afc3e7d0c2bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:09:20 - 10:18:30","影片長度":"00:09:10","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T10:09:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:18:30+08:00","duration":550,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.835968750000001,"end":7.337843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.316593750000003,"end":10.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.653468750000002,"end":13.699718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.83471875,"end":102.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.65596875,"end":141.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.74721875,"end":150.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.91471875000002,"end":153.77909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.79596875000001,"end":176.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.58159375000002,"end":219.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.14659375000002,"end":178.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.03909375,"end":225.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.62034375000002,"end":254.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.74221875,"end":263.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.30596875000003,"end":274.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.41846875000005,"end":275.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.43534375,"end":274.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.74721875,"end":277.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.52346875,"end":279.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.22346875,"end":299.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.28784375000004,"end":307.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.60721875,"end":315.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.27284375,"end":317.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.53409375,"end":379.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.97159375,"end":380.24159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.05159375000005,"end":381.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.97971875,"end":382.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.87409375000004,"end":419.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.36221875,"end":444.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.53534375000004,"end":457.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.24221875,"end":460.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.13596875,"end":469.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.20221875000004,"end":484.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.01846875,"end":504.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.18409375000005,"end":513.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.71034375,"end":514.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.22909375,"end":545.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.8022187500001,"end":546.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.44346875,"end":547.62471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":6.123,"text":"受保委員質詢縣主席請消院長請院長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":12.691,"end":24.641,"text":"院長早 那其實一開始呢 還是要延續一下剛才林行委員非常關心的關於我們故宮的預算的部分那其實根據故宮這邊提供的資料呢 大陸地區的旅費刪減了80%那國外旅費刪減了178萬多 國內旅費也刪減了81萬多"},{"start":31.767,"end":46.619,"text":"那其中呢,國外的旅費部分呢,我想剛才院長您有講到,也影響到了說,今年度跟捷克國家博物館以及要跟法國的卡布朗利龍的展覽,相關的這個都還是會有影響。"},{"start":49.201,"end":72.461,"text":"那目前你們遇到的這些相關的困境你們剛剛院長說了你們會趕快去尋求其他的協助那針對大陸地區的旅費的部分剛剛您有講了就是說像大陸今年的這個考古的這個考古瓷器學會2025年這個年會可能你們也沒有辦法參加了那相關的考察你們也不去了沒辦法去"},{"start":73.422,"end":90.529,"text":"那其實這些相關的預算被這樣的惡意的刪減影響是真的是非常大啦其實這不單是漠視我們文化交流也是阻擋我們台灣的文化走進世界因為其中的這個媒體政策跟業務宣導費被刪減了60%這對這個業務宣導費這個被刪減的部分相關於我們故宮這邊的相關的宣傳設計這個部分對我們故宮的影響大概有哪些院長這邊是說明一下"},{"start":105.276,"end":132.783,"text":"當然是理會的部分的話就是我剛講的就是考察的部分的話我們就先擱置還有公文在我桌上同仁要出去洽展借展的我沒有辦法批不下去那另外的話就是國外的交流展覽的部分基本上來講的話我們會全力然後就是維持原來的一個一個一個運作方式不會因為經會的被刪減就是產生落差這個部分的話"},{"start":133.383,"end":150.83,"text":"跟委員會這邊保證就是說跟國人保證就是說我們一定會讓這個文路的布卸展押印什麼都進行都正常的進行那當然經費的部分的話就是說其實我們有一些社會贊助的一個方案在進行那相關的宣傳跟設計的部分受到影響的有哪些"},{"start":153.891,"end":172.161,"text":"宣傳受到影響的話是一定的那現在的話我們找了那個觀光署然後找了外交部那外交部他們現在也同意有一個歐洲文化藝術年的計畫希望透過整合借力使力的方式然後讓各個"},{"start":173.081,"end":178.605,"text":"歐洲的住管單位來共同進行宣傳那就是請其他的單位來支援一下這樣子那其實像這樣子慢慢的到現在已經是四月底快五月了這個二一刪減預算的這些影響意義的都浮現了那其實我們教文的委員都非常的憂心就是說對於未來我們相關的業務的執行因為其實我知道院長跟我們相關的這些同仁都一直想辦法在克服困難"},{"start":201.519,"end":213.503,"text":"那因為執行業務是你們的職責所以你們會很盡力的很努力的想盡各種辦法讓你們原來的業務可以推展可以執行但不能說成被煽動預算對你們執行業務沒有影響你們一樣在做其實你們這個背後所背負的壓力"},{"start":218.905,"end":221.746,"text":"不是沒有影響 不是沒有影響我們盡量把那個影響控制下來對 所以我現在就是讓院長您講因為我有聽到其他的委員有人說三點的預算 動的節約預算你們一樣在執行啊這個跟少鄉市沒有什麼關係其實是有影響的因為你們已經很努力的就像剛剛您講的在克服各種困難 尋找各種的資源那相關的業務的品質跟成效也一定會有影響"},{"start":246.957,"end":262.718,"text":"尤其像我很想知道說我們國內旅費被刪減的這部分我們關於我們這些同仁在往返這個南北縣區的時候如果像這樣子預算被刪減你們會要用怎樣的方式來補救"},{"start":265.702,"end":279.371,"text":"根文報告就是基本上來講的話我們都是抑壓硬跟不卸展那個絕對會有影響那會有影響的話就是國內呢 國內國內的話就是南北院區你們的同仁要往返嗎"},{"start":280.767,"end":299.334,"text":"我們如果可以適性不用南北往返的話南院的同仁竟然說適性可是那個押印布卸展押印那一定是要專業人員我們就把那個經費控制在一個合理的範圍之內盡量盡量去處理那當然就是說我們還是有"},{"start":300.353,"end":316.941,"text":"同樣的講法我們還是有在尋求社會支援包括那個什麼那個什麼北港朝天宮 新港奉天宮我們都去求過了就希望說他們可以給我們政府支持院長您辛苦了"},{"start":317.661,"end":328.291,"text":"好那關於這個部分呢我想您這樣的說明呢我們的民眾也了解到說你們真的是非常非常的用心喔在這樣子被無底的煽動預算之下你們還是要努力的維持你們相關業務的這個品質好那接下來我要再跟院長您討論一下關於我故宮文創商品是不是應該要全部台灣製造這個問題喔"},{"start":341.883,"end":371.041,"text":"在2022年的時候教育委員會就有委員關心過故宮有中國製造的文創商品那當時的院長吳敏察院長就允諾說會透過契約來約束確保故宮的這個文創商品可以全部是MIT但是本席的辦公室在故宮的這個網站上這個商城裡面瀏覽的時候有看到有三個商品其中一個是迷你百事就是百財如意還有個迷你百事是迷你四方博古價文物組以及迷你百事是迷你"},{"start":371.681,"end":392.816,"text":"人滿博古價文物組這個產地都標明是中國那針對這個部分本期想要請教院長你覺得這樣合理嗎當然委員提醒之後我們現在增加了二十幾家的MIT廠商那當然就是說如果要把那個錄製的產品完全斷絕的話會影響到整個"},{"start":395.317,"end":418.738,"text":"文創商品的品項然後跟他的那個禮約那我們是用合約的方式去處理就是說如果你用MIT的那個產品的話那個合約就是說我們的分潤錢一斤的話就會降低就是讓廠商用台灣的獲利獲利會比較高去彌補那個大陸的低價商品院長其實這個"},{"start":420.439,"end":441.539,"text":"有一個重點我不知道您有沒有了解到我問這個問題的重點在哪裡就是說遊客到我國的故宮遊玩的時候他們會希望會願意買到中國製造的紀念品嗎我來台灣玩我來這個地方玩我就希望買到本地的文創品製造品結果他一翻發現是中國製造"},{"start":444.642,"end":459.028,"text":"他對外國的遊客其實包括我們自己在地的遊客也會覺得說為什麼我現在買這樣的東西都不是我們自己台灣自己做的這個部分點出來的問題在這裡那我不知道這樣子您覺得說這樣這個問題嚴不嚴重"},{"start":463.69,"end":484.177,"text":"這個不只是故宮的那個文創商品實際上市面上的一般的物件的話也都呈現這樣的一個情況所以故宮現在我們想的就是有一個MIT的專區可是完全要因為有些廠商的禮業之前就已經訂定了如果說現在要"},{"start":485.057,"end":504.757,"text":"整個都改的話可能有很多合約上面的問題都很難去處理那我們只能跟委員承諾就是說我們會一定加強MIT的廠商的合作然後另外的話就是就是提供一個專區讓大家或是優惠讓大家可以來購買MIT的產品"},{"start":505.216,"end":509.799,"text":"好 謝謝院長您也願意努力其實本席這邊希望說故宮可以全面的盤點因為其實2022年盤點我們有盤點過聽到這個問題也預諾說會改善但是到現在其實你們改善的這個比例並不高當然院長您說的是因為之前有一些契約在那"},{"start":524.407,"end":542.272,"text":"不能及時的所有的契約都做修正的話那也希望說像你們的業務報告裡面有提到說你們有跟經濟部產發署有這個推薦MIT的台灣精選廠商合作所以既然有這樣的方向也可以有這樣的做法的話我會希望說我們可以正視這個狀況並且逐年改善可以嗎是好 謝謝院長 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":279,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時9分）謝謝主席，請蕭院長。"],["主席：請院長備詢。"],["陳委員秀寳：院長早，一開始還是要延續剛才林宜瑾委員非常關心的故宮預算，根據故宮提供的資料，大陸地區的旅費刪減了80%，國外旅費刪減了一百七十八萬多，國內旅費也刪減了八十一萬多，其中國外旅費的部分，剛才院長有講也影響到今年度跟捷克國家博物館，以及要跟法國凱布朗利博物館的「龍」展，相關的都還是會有影響，目前你們遇到的這些相關困境，剛剛院長說會趕快去尋求其他的協助。針對大陸地區旅費的部分剛剛你也講了，像大陸今年的考古瓷器學會2025年年會可能你們也沒有辦法參加了，相關的考察你們也不去了，因為沒辦法去，其實這些相關的預算被這樣惡意的刪減，影響真的是非常大，這不單是漠視我們文化交流，也是阻擋臺灣的文化走進世界，因為其中的媒體政策與業務宣導費被刪減了60%，針對業務宣導費被刪減，相關的宣傳設計這個部分對故宮的影響大概有哪些？院長請說明一下。"],["蕭院長宗煌：當然旅費的部分，我剛剛講的就是考察的部分我們就先擱置，還有公文在我桌上，同仁要出去洽展、借展，我們沒有辦法，批不下去。另外，國外交流展覽的部分，基本上我們會全力維持原來的運作方式，不會因為經費被刪減而產生落差。這個部分跟委員會保證、跟國人保證，我們一定會讓文物的布卸展、押運等都正常進行。當然經費的部分，其實我們有一些社會贊助方案在進行，所以這個部分沒有辦法……"],["陳委員秀寳：相關的宣傳與設計的部分受到影響的有哪些？"],["蕭院長宗煌：宣傳受到影響是一定的，現在我們找了觀光署、外交部，外交部他們現在也同意有個歐洲文化藝術年的計畫希望透過整合、借力使力的方式，然後讓各個歐洲駐館單位共同進行宣傳作業。"],["陳委員秀寳：那就是請其他單位來支援一下？。"],["蕭院長宗煌：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實像這樣子慢慢的到現在已經是4月底，快5月了，惡意刪減預算的這些影響一一都浮現了。其實我們教文委員都非常憂心，對於未來相關業務執行，我知道院長跟我們相關的同仁都一直想辦法克服困難，因為執行業務是你們的職責，所以你們會很盡力、很努力地想盡各種辦法讓原來的業務可以推展、可以執行，但不能說成被刪凍預算對你們執行業務沒有影響，你們一樣在做，其實你們背後所背負的壓力跟面對的……"],["蕭院長宗煌：不是沒有影響，我們儘量把影響控制下來，讓它順利進行。"],["陳委員秀寳：對，所以我現在就是讓院長您講，因為我有聽到其他的委員有人說，刪減、凍結了預算你們一樣在執行，這好像是沒有什麼關係。其實是有影響的，因為你們就像剛剛您講的，已經很努力地在克服各種困難，尋找各種資源，相關的業務品質跟成效也一定會有影響，尤其像我很想知道國內旅費被刪減的部分，關於這些同仁在往返南北院區的時候，如果像這樣的預算被刪減，你們要用怎樣的方式來補救？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，基本上來講，我們的押運跟布卸展絕對會有影響，會有影響的話就是……"],["陳委員秀寳：國內呢？"],["蕭院長宗煌：國內的話，就是……"],["陳委員秀寳：你們南北院區的同仁要往返啊！"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們如果可以用視訊而不用南北往返的話，南院的同仁儘量就用視訊，可是押運、布卸展一定要專業人員，我們就把經費控制在一個合理的範圍之內儘量去處理，當然我們還是有同樣的講法，我們還是在尋求社會資源，包括北港朝天宮、新港奉天宮等，我們都去求過了，就是希望他們可以給我們經費支持。"],["陳委員秀寳：真的，院長，您辛苦了。關於這個部分，我想您這樣的說明，我們民眾也了解到你們真的是非常非常的用心，在這樣子被無理的刪凍預算之下，你們還是要努力的維持相關的業務品質。","接下來我要再跟院長討論一下，關於故宮文創商品是不是應該要全部臺灣製造的問題，在2022年的時候，教文委員會就有委員關心過故宮有中國製造的文創商品，當時的吳密察院長就允諾會透過契約來約束，確保故宮的文創商品可以全部是MIT。但是本席辦公室在故宮的網站商城裡面瀏覽的時候，看到有3個商品，其中一個是迷你擺飾「百財如意」，還有一個迷你擺飾「迷你四方博古架文物組」，以及迷你擺飾「迷你圓滿博古架文物組」，產地都標明是中國，針對這個部分，本席想要請教院長，你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：委員提醒之後，我們現在增加了二十幾家MIT廠商，當然如果要把陸製的產品完全斷絕的話，會影響到整個文創商品的品項與其履約，我們是用合約的方式處理，就是如果用MIT產品的話，我們的合約分潤權利金就會降低，就是讓廠商用臺灣的商品會有比較高的獲利去彌補大陸的低價商品。這個部分，我們……"],["陳委員秀寳：院長，其實這個有一個重點，我不知道您有沒有了解到我問這個問題的重點在哪裡，就是遊客到我國故宮遊玩的時候，他們會希望、會願意買到中國製造的紀念品嗎？他來臺灣玩，他來這個地方玩就是希望買到本地的文創品、製造品，結果他一翻發現是中國製造，對外國的遊客，其實包括我們自己在地的遊客，也會覺得為什麼我現在買的東西都不是臺灣自己做的，這個部分點出來的問題在這裡，我不知道這樣子您覺得問題嚴不嚴重？"],["蕭院長宗煌：這個不只是故宮的文創商品，實際上市面上的一般物件也都呈現這樣的情況，所以現在我們故宮想的就是有一個MIT專區，可是完全要……因為有些廠商的履約之前就已經訂定了，如果現在要整個都改的話，可能有很多合約上面的問題都很難去處理，我們只能跟委員承諾，就是我們一定會加強與MIT廠商的合作，然後另外提供一個專區或是優惠讓大家可以來購買MIT的產品。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝院長您也願意努力。其實本席這邊希望故宮可以全面的盤點，因為其實2022年……"],["蕭院長宗煌：盤點，我們有盤點過。"],["陳委員秀寳：提到這個問題，也允諾說會改善，但是到現在其實你們改善的比率並不高，當然院長您說的是因為之前有一些契約在，不能即時讓所有契約都做修正的話，也希望像你們的業務報告裡面有提到你們跟經濟部產發署有推薦MIT的「臺灣金選」廠商合作，所以既然有這樣的方向，也可以有這樣的作法的話，我會希望你們可以正視這個狀況，並且逐年改善，可以嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝院長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員的質詢，請官員回座。","接下來有請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-9","speakers":["葛如鈞","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","林宜瑾","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","范雲","郭昱晴","陳冠廷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林沛祥","張雅琳"],"page_start":315,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00007"}}},{"id":"160765","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160765","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b94236989ecd1baeef128cb3c0ba1d923b4b8dbc2100e055cb594037d6d5c14b1ef24585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:06:06 - 10:17:42","影片長度":"00:11:36","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T10:06:06+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:17:42+08:00","duration":696,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.00909375,"end":6.865343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.152218750000001,"end":7.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.610968750000001,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.707843750000002,"end":16.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.872218750000002,"end":24.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.292843750000003,"end":42.454718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.262843750000002,"end":28.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.72471875,"end":60.055343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.40971875,"end":63.126593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.430343750000006,"end":72.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.62346875,"end":71.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.86346875000001,"end":73.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.84221875,"end":79.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.10284375,"end":91.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.83534375,"end":93.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.53971875,"end":108.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.04034375,"end":105.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.96346875,"end":113.93721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.29159375,"end":116.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.73846875000001,"end":129.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.92221875,"end":129.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.46221875,"end":136.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.02659375000002,"end":137.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.62971875,"end":142.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.00034375,"end":145.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.18971875,"end":145.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.61971875,"end":152.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.66534375,"end":160.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.23784375,"end":165.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.70596875,"end":163.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.27096875,"end":178.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.94971875000002,"end":169.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.91846875000002,"end":180.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.01971875,"end":181.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.12909375,"end":185.68971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.68971875000003,"end":201.38346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.09659375,"end":205.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.78784375,"end":207.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.10409375,"end":207.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.13784375,"end":207.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.61034375000003,"end":208.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.96034375000002,"end":216.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.26721875,"end":248.61659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.97596875000002,"end":219.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.88909375,"end":233.34471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.09471875000003,"end":240.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.32534375,"end":255.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.69159375,"end":256.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.37909375000004,"end":290.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.44471875,"end":268.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.38846875,"end":277.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.25971875,"end":307.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.03784375000004,"end":314.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.88471875000005,"end":320.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.36909375000005,"end":325.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.90846875,"end":326.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.35971875,"end":326.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.49034375,"end":347.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.97659375,"end":354.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.15346875,"end":350.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.18284375,"end":352.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.52409375,"end":354.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.57471875000005,"end":356.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.07221875000005,"end":377.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.36471875,"end":375.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.39784375000005,"end":388.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.31221875,"end":387.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.40909375,"end":389.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.26534375,"end":394.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.56409375000004,"end":407.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.54534375000003,"end":409.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.65471875000003,"end":411.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.83159375,"end":413.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.82284375,"end":428.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.40034375000005,"end":417.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.08221875000004,"end":441.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.83534375000005,"end":442.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.26971875000004,"end":452.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.26409375000003,"end":461.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.60971875,"end":455.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.66346875000005,"end":463.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.85721875,"end":495.70034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.12659375000004,"end":468.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.37534375,"end":499.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.54346875000005,"end":507.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.26846875,"end":506.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.49596875000003,"end":514.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.0053437500001,"end":521.6372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.12659375,"end":527.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.77971875,"end":573.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.33784375,"end":579.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.79284375,"end":588.6140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.1215937500001,"end":581.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.45034375,"end":583.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.25596875,"end":586.1672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.2978437500001,"end":587.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.10346875,"end":592.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.71471875,"end":621.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.93784375,"end":596.0222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.69721875,"end":597.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.11784375,"end":605.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.8259687500001,"end":610.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.2553437500001,"end":616.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.9084687500001,"end":635.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.3459687500001,"end":631.5947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.30721875,"end":650.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.98409375,"end":655.6584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.3547187500001,"end":660.6028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.14346875,"end":661.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.92346875,"end":668.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.2609687500001,"end":661.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.3147187500001,"end":668.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.8884687500001,"end":671.2509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.6984687500001,"end":672.3815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.34346875,"end":674.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.28409375,"end":677.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":675.3347187500001,"end":676.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.7690937500001,"end":681.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.60784375,"end":683.7553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.7553437500001,"end":685.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.0928437500002,"end":692.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.4597187500001,"end":687.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":690.18471875,"end":696.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.3447187500001,"end":693.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":694.3190937500001,"end":695.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":695.53409375,"end":696.3272187500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.371,"end":6.612,"text":"謝謝主席請陳部長陳部長喂好"},{"start":15.748,"end":42.21,"text":"部長在這幾個月都有不斷傳出說比特犬有攻擊的事件尤其是3月份在台北就有比特犬惡毒的咬人的事情那在4月份的時候又屏東又出現狗咬狗比特犬去咬柴犬結果這個柴犬傷重而離世而這個比特犬我們經過調查之後的話它是未完成寵物登記或"},{"start":43.47,"end":68.418,"text":"核絕育的這個情形那當然市主也因為動保法被裁罰了但是我們在2022年的3月1號我們也有要求比特犬是禁止飼養跟輸入的動物這農業部都已經做了但是現在發生了這個沒有登記完成的那有登記完成的目前造冊的有3974隻那沒有沒有"},{"start":72.918,"end":78.747,"text":"登記跟決議的這個比特權 你們有什麼手 有什麼方式來做這個稽查"},{"start":80.148,"end":102.759,"text":"我想這也是我們農業部的一個困擾就是說當我們就做禁止然後叫他們來登記的時候那一定有一些黑樹啦那這些黑樹一旦被抓到的話那等出事之後再罰就是了不是本末倒置了對 但是相對的我們一定會加強宣導透過地方政府去加強宣導那宣導的時候他不出來我們也沒辦法如果沒辦法 透過檢舉"},{"start":104.14,"end":122.614,"text":"方式或是工具手段的嗎我們現在就是說可以透過現在一直發生這種工人事件 夭壽這種悲劇的情形你不要說沒辦法不是 我剛才講沒辦法就是說永遠在登記的時候 永遠有一些黑數那這些黑數 我們第一個就是要讓他宣導 讓他知道"},{"start":123.815,"end":145.529,"text":"那他如果知道而不出來的時候那他一定會帶狗出來外面散步的時候你怎麼查然後透過沒有他散步的時候透過一些檢舉的方式通報的方式我們就可以去追蹤誰會跟你通報我想還是有一些人民看到民眾看到的時候都會來通報的部分他通報他怎麼知道這狗沒有植入晶片或者是沒有來登記"},{"start":147.677,"end":160.4,"text":"他看到這比特權的部分如果說他沒有依照相關的規範去去做遷移的時候那相對的本身民眾就可以來通報通報的話我們地方的動保檢查人員就會去去查訪"},{"start":161.311,"end":178.616,"text":"一定要去稽查 因為很多黑數像這次狗咬狗的情形就是黑數好不好那因為這個動保法我們已經你們農業部已經在去年的8月已經送到行政院到現在什麼時候要送到8月"},{"start":179.963,"end":207.71,"text":"我們已經質詢好幾次了欸都是尋答沒有辦法處理就是因為沒有你們的版本我跟委員報告齁我剛才在報告的時候有講我們現在動不動修正在行政院已經審查完畢只在院會通過就可以送到行政院那我會盡快的跟行政院溝通能夠在下一次的院會排進去的時候五月就可以送進來你們每一次都回答我說年底就會送進來過了好幾個年了年底都沒有送進來沒有喔那個"},{"start":209.348,"end":237.146,"text":"因為您當召委的時候有排過一次齁那那個時候我們也如期送到行政院那行政院因為還有很多法案被排審希望你們趕快催促啦好不好趕快催促那因為本席會這麼提的話就是因為我們在動保法裡面其中的20條的第二項裡面針對有攻擊性的這個寵物出入公共場所的時候我們要有防範的措施齁不管是成人陪伴或者有要求說可以的話就要簽審嘛"},{"start":238.667,"end":266.602,"text":"有牽繩的方式的話 那之前部長回答說因為是各縣市各自處理的那我們希望統一的方式來處理那也希望說我們農業部要把這條牽繩的這部分把列入參考列入這個規範好不好 我們一定把它放進去一定要列入因為這個不同的犬隻的類型大小不一樣 如果飼主啊你如果說不當地飼養小狗或變"},{"start":267.783,"end":289.419,"text":"對不對所以一定要好好的規範好不好那接下來要討論的就是說我們的糧食的自給率的下降這個糧食自給率我們看到我們在2011年的時候有針對於我們這個糧食供需這個年報裡面也有要求說希望我們的自給率可以達到40%"},{"start":291.34,"end":319.962,"text":"但是逐年一直下降到現在剩下的30%那在2011年我們就訂說在2020年的話我們要達到40%現在還是沒有達到那部長在這方面的話我們可以如何去訂定我們的期程或時程能夠給這個自給率能夠提高好 謝謝委員的關心我第一個要說明的就是糧食自給率不等於糧食安全那糧食自給率它是一個進口出口之間的關係我如果減少出口"},{"start":321.707,"end":326.602,"text":"減少出口減少進口的部分 增加出口的部分那你的意思是說現在30%是安全喔"},{"start":327.52,"end":354.282,"text":"不是 我剛才說糧食自給率是一件事情它不是說糧食自給率低我們的糧食安全就低那要看糧食安全的品項我們在糧食安全的時候我們有針對主要的糧食那主要的糧食像稻米我們的自給率是百分之百我們蔬菜是百分之八十幾所以要看我們的糧食安全是要看我們的主食跟副食的部分可是你們既然訂出這個目標是要達到百分之四十嗎那你們有預估什麼時程可以達到百分之四十"},{"start":354.662,"end":377.227,"text":"我個人很坦白講當年很早大概十幾年前就訂在40%那個是一個願景一個目標那我們就朝向這個目標在走那現在會拉糧食自理局往下拉最主要就是我們的所有的黃小玉的飼料為主的這些原物料都是進口的對大部分的進口都是這個部分拉下來的"},{"start":379.508,"end":394.588,"text":"所以就是因為我們都依賴進口所以沒有給自給力不高那萬一有什麼環境時空背景的話讓我們進口進步來怎麼辦所以我們現在就是說我們找到糧食自給力下降是因為飼料的部分進口所以我們現在"},{"start":395.649,"end":410.089,"text":"做了很多對地綠色給付還有雜糧轉做就是這個目的我們希望說這些雜糧的種子能夠拉高以後那自給率就會上升我們是朝這個方向來走好所以您這樣講的話那部長因為這個美國這個"},{"start":413.854,"end":440.832,"text":"我們大部分都在美國進口這個黃小玉嘛對不對那因為黃小玉我們都依賴進口那美國這一次因為這個貿易的逆差要調高這個關稅到32%那現在雖然暫緩了90天但是要做一個談判的這個節奏在各部會的話在調整說怎麼去購買美國的那個產品那尤其是部長這邊有提到要增加對美國黃小玉的採購那請問部長"},{"start":443.534,"end":455.144,"text":"黃小玉的採購的話這個雜糧的部分的話我們在對黃豆跟小麥跟玉米我們的自給率非常低非常低都是0點多而已尤其是這個在2016年到2023年的話我們看到黃豆的自給率只有0.18"},{"start":461.909,"end":488.023,"text":"小麥的話0.35還有玉米的話才會多一點才2.98%那你看其他世界各國在鄰近我們這附近的話你看日本的話是38%他們的糧食供應是38%還有韓國的話是45%的自給率我們在這方面的話我們是不是有要提高它但是你又碰到說像美國你要提高這個黃小玉的擴大購買"},{"start":489.264,"end":498.56,"text":"增加購買的話那你又要讓我們的農民要推廣他們對雜糧的這個轉作你特別提到的就是說一轉"},{"start":500.772,"end":525.618,"text":"對於對於綠色環境給付的這個計畫一級二轉三加三這個部分那你要如何去讓農民能夠安心我種的這個黃小玉可以保障他的收購價格因為你看美國的部分的話他的黃小玉在品質上或者是他價格上都比較優厚啊那農民的話你這樣子的話農民更不敢去種這個雜糧的部分"},{"start":528.019,"end":552.386,"text":"我要跟委員報告就是說就成如你剛才說的我們自己做的我們的自有力非常低所以進口跟我們自己種的它有一個平衡比在那邊以黃豆來講我們的黃豆最主要是實用可是我們進口用的黃豆最主要是炸油所以它有市場區隔那小麥的部分因為美國的小麥它的筋性是比較符合我們的一些飲用品質那台灣的"},{"start":554.106,"end":573.043,"text":"麵粉小麥的筋性是比較適合做餅乾之類的或其他麵條之類的所以它也有市場區隔那同樣玉米也是一樣所以我們會用大量進口用大宗採購的方式是希望降低成本因為飼料是我們的畜牧產業很重要的成本之一所以我們透過"},{"start":574.404,"end":591.974,"text":"大量的進口以後去降低成本能夠讓我們的續產業的飼料真的降低你要提醒你的就是你要記得自給率的問題不能完全靠進口我們剛剛提到說不管是環境或者是整個持空背景萬一進不來的時候"},{"start":592.774,"end":615.93,"text":"我們可以有個自己的志氣力才能夠保障那現在你要農民轉做這個雜糧的話你要什麼誘因去保障它就是價格上的能夠保障收購讓他們才種得下去才能夠賣得出去這是最重要的部分嘛所以在這部分的話我希望你能夠做調整你們的政策你們的計畫都做出來了一轉二做三加三的話"},{"start":616.57,"end":635.07,"text":"你都已經提出來了但是你現在又提個要擴大對美國的採購對農民他們會擔心我種下去到時候價格又降下來我賣不出去怎麼辦所以請你們要嚴格審查而且要保障農民他的權益有保障收購的制度好不好"},{"start":635.37,"end":655.588,"text":"好 謝謝委員的提醒我們針對我們現在推動的一級二轉參加餐本身對於飼料對於玉米的部分種植的部分我們在續展會那邊有一個收購的機制在那邊我們也絕對不會因為進口量變多而影響到農民的權益這個絕對不會發生的我們一定會確保農民的生意"},{"start":655.748,"end":671.911,"text":"不要一直都靠進口了 我知道 自給率要來提高提高自給率好不好 有一個平衡點那你那個10成整個你的40%的這個自給率的部分那糧食的自給率部分你要把這個10成跟整個規劃出來好不好 我們努力會來朝這個方向來做2030年可以嗎你現在訂2020年嘛現在給你10年時間達不到40%嗎我講坦白話可能2030年也達不到40%"},{"start":683.019,"end":694.629,"text":"至少要提高我們會提高我們會朝這個目標所以我剛才說我會從品項來看有些品項是跟量產業有關的我們會盡量拉高把這個時程跟目標產項都把它訂出來把這表格送給美食"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":255,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（10時6分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，這幾月不斷傳出比特犬攻擊人的事件，尤其是3月在臺北就有比特犬二度咬人的事情；4月的時候屏東又出現狗咬狗，比特犬去咬柴犬，結果這個柴犬傷重離世。這個比特犬經調查，牠有未完成寵物登記和絕育的情形，當然飼主也因為動保法被裁罰了。但是我們在2022年3月1日要求比特犬是禁止飼養跟輸入的動物，這些農業部都已經做了，但是現在發生了沒有登記完成的。有登記完成目前已造冊的有3,974隻，對於沒有登記跟絕育的比特犬，你們有什麼手段、方式做稽查？"],["陳部長駿季：我想這也是我們農業部的一個困擾，當我們禁止，叫他們來登記的時候，一定有一些黑數，這些黑數一旦被抓到……"],["呂委員玉玲：是等出事的時候再罰就是了？"],["陳部長駿季：不是。"],["呂委員玉玲：這樣不就本末倒置嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：相對地，我們一定會透過地方政府加強宣導，宣導的時候他不出來，我們也沒辦法，如果……"],["呂委員玉玲：沒辦法？"],["陳部長駿季：如果有人檢舉……"],["呂委員玉玲：沒有什麼方式或工具、手段嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在就是，可以透過通報……"],["呂委員玉玲：像現在一直發生這種攻擊人的事件、狗咬狗這種悲劇的情形，你不要說沒辦法。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我剛剛講沒辦法的意思是，在登記的時候永遠有一些黑數，對於這些黑數，我們第一個就是要宣導讓他知道，他如果知道而不出來的時候……他一定會帶狗出來外面散步……"],["呂委員玉玲：你怎麼查？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，散步的時候透過一些檢舉的方式、通報的方式，我們就可以去追蹤。"],["呂委員玉玲：誰會向你通報？"],["陳部長駿季：我想還是會有一些民眾，看到的時候都會來通報。"],["呂委員玉玲：他要通報的時候，怎麼知道這隻狗沒有植入晶片或是沒有來登記？"],["陳部長駿季：他看到比特犬時，如果他沒有依照相關的規範去牽引，相對地，民眾本身就可以來通報，通報之後我們地方的動保檢查人員就會去查訪了。"],["呂委員玉玲：一定要去稽查。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為有很多黑數，像這次狗咬狗的情形就是黑數，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為這部動保法，你們農業部已經在去年8月送到行政院，到現在什麼時候要送到立法院？我們已經質詢好幾次了，都是詢答而沒有辦法處理，就是因為沒有你們的版本。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我剛才在報告的時候也講，現在動保法的修正，行政院已經審查完畢，只待院會通過就可以送到立法院，我會儘快地跟行政院溝通，能夠在下一次的院會排進去，5月就可以送進來。"],["呂委員玉玲：你們每一次都回答我，年底就會送進來，過了好幾個年了，年底都沒有送進來。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，呂委員，您當召委的時候有排過一次，那個時候我們也如期送到行政院，行政院因為還有很多法案在排審。"],["呂委員玉玲：希望你們趕快催促。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會催。"],["呂委員玉玲：趕快催促。本席之所以這麼提，就是因為我們在動保法裡面，其中的第二十條第二項，針對有攻擊性的寵物出入公共場所的時候，我們要有防範的措施，不管是成人陪伴，或是有要求可以的話就是用牽繩嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：有牽繩的方式。"],["陳部長駿季：還有戴口罩。"],["呂委員玉玲：之前部長的回答是，各縣市各自處理，我們希望有統一的方式可處理，也希望農業部要把這一條，「牽繩」的部分列入規範好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們一定會把它放進去。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，一定要列入，因為不同犬隻的類型、大小不一樣，如果飼主不當飼養，小狗會變惡犬，對不對？所以一定要好好規範，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來要討論的是我們糧食自給率的下降，關於糧食自給率，2011年的糧食供需年報裡面要求，希望我們的自給率可以達到40%，但是卻逐年一直下降，到現在只剩下30%。在2011年的時候，我們也規定在2020年要達到40%，現在還是沒有達到，部長在這方面要如何訂定期程或時程把自給率提高？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的關心，我第一個要說明的是，糧食自給率不等於糧食安全，糧食自給率是一個進口、出口之間的關係，我如果減少進口、增加出口糧食自給率……"],["呂委員玉玲：你的意思是，現在的30%是安全的？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我剛剛說的是，糧食自給率是一件事情，並不是糧食自給率低，我們的糧食安全就低，那要看糧食安全的品項，關於糧食安全，我們有針對主要的糧食，像稻米，我們的自給率就是100%，我們的蔬菜是百分之八十幾，所以我們的糧食安全要看我們的主食跟副食的部分。"],["呂委員玉玲：可是你們既然定出要達到40%這個目標，你們預估什麼時程可以達到40%。"],["陳部長駿季：我個人很坦白講，早在十幾年前就定在40%。"],["呂委員玉玲：對。"],["陳部長駿季：那是一個願景、一個目標，我們是朝向這個目標在走，現在糧食自給率會往下拉，最主要是因為我們所有的黃、小、玉，以飼料為主的原物料都是進口的。"],["呂委員玉玲：對，大部分都是進口的啊！"],["陳部長駿季：都是這個部分在拉下來的。"],["呂委員玉玲：就是因為我們都依賴進口，所以自給率不高，萬一有什麼環境、時空背景的話，讓我們的進口進不來怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們現在就是……我們找到糧食自給率下降是因為，飼料的部分是進口的，所以我們現在做了很多對地綠色給付，還有雜糧轉作就是這個目的，就是希望這些雜糧的種植能夠拉高，自給率就會上升，我們是朝這個方向來走。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，所以你這樣講的話，部長，我們大部分都是從美國進口黃、小、玉，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為我們對黃、小、玉都是依賴進口，美國這一次因為貿易的逆差要把關稅調高到32%，現在雖然暫緩了90天，但是要有一個談判的節奏，各部會再去調整要怎麼購買美國的產品。尤其是部長在這邊有提到要增加對美國黃、小、玉的採購，請問部長，關於黃、小、玉這些雜糧的採購，我們黃豆、小麥、玉米的自給率非常低，都只有百分之零點多而已，尤其在2016年到2023年黃豆的自給率只有0.18%，小麥是0.35%，玉米有多一點，不過也才2.98%，那你看其他世界各國，像鄰近我們的日本，他們的糧食供應是38%，韓國的自給率是45%，那我們是不是要提高這方面的自給率？但是現在又碰到要增加購買美國的黃、小、玉，所以要對我們的農民推廣轉作雜糧，你有特別提到這個綠色環境給付計畫的「1集、2轉、3加3」策略，那你要如何讓農民能夠安心，對他們種的黃、小、玉保障一定的收購價格？你看像美國的黃、小、玉在品質上或者是價格上都比較優厚，那這樣子農民就更不敢去種雜糧了。"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員報告，就誠如你剛才說的，我們的自有率非常低，所以進口跟我們自己種的有一個平衡比在那邊，以黃豆來講，我們的黃豆最主要是食用，可是我們進口的黃豆最主要是用來榨油，所以它有市場區隔；在小麥的部分，因為美國小麥的筋性是比較符合我們的一些食用品質，那臺灣小麥的筋性是比較適合做餅乾或麵條之類的，所以它也有市場區隔；那玉米也是一樣。我們大量進口、用大宗採購的方式就是希望降低成本，因為飼料是我們畜牧產業很重要的成本之一，所以我們透過大量的進口去降低成本，讓我們畜產業的飼料成本降低。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，本席要提醒你的就是你要記得自給率的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：是，我了解。"],["呂委員玉玲：你不能完全靠進口。"],["陳部長駿季：我們絕對不會。"],["呂委員玉玲：我剛剛提到不管是環境或整個時空背景，萬一真的進不來，我們自己也有一定的自給率，這樣才能夠有保障。"],["陳部長駿季：是，了解。"],["呂委員玉玲：那現在你要農民轉作雜糧，你要提出什麼誘因？要如何去保障他？就是要能夠有一定的收購價格，這樣他們才種得下去，才能夠賣得出去，這是最重要的部分，所以我希望你對這個部分能夠做調整，你們的政策、你們的計畫都做出來了，都已經提出「1集、2轉、3加3」了，但是你現在又要擴大對美國的採購，農民就會擔心如果種下去，到時候價格又降下來，賣不出去要怎麼辦？所以請你們要嚴格審查，而且要保障農民的權益，有保證收購的制度，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員的提醒，我們現在推動的「1集、2轉、3加3」對於玉米種植的部分，畜產會有一個收購的機制，我們絕對不會因為進口量變多而影響到農民的權益，這個絕對不會發生，我們一定會確保農民的收益。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們不要一直都靠進口。"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，所以我剛剛說有一個平衡點。"],["呂委員玉玲：你們要提高自給率，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，那你糧食自給率要達40%的目標，你要把時程跟整個規劃提出來，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們會努力朝這個方向來做。"],["呂委員玉玲：2030年可以達到嗎？你原來是訂2020年，現在給你10年的時間，達不到40%嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我講坦白話，可能到2030年也達不到40%。"],["呂委員玉玲：但是至少要提高，那你就調整趴數。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會提高，我們會朝這個目標。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，那你要定出來。"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才說我們會從品項來看，有些品項是跟糧食安全有關的，我們會儘量拉高。"],["呂委員玉玲：要把整個時程、目標、產項都訂出來。"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們會。"],["呂委員玉玲：把這個表格送給本席，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我們先作以下宣告：在楊瓊瓔委員質詢結束後休息5分鐘。","現在請鄭正鈐委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","葉元之","蔡易餘","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","邱議瑩","張雅琳","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員呂玉\n玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員劉建國等 16 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案；七、本\n院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」\n案；八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員李坤城等\n22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案；十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十四、本院委員郭昱晴\n等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護\n法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保\n護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案；十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動\n物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正\n草案」案；十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案；二\n十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二十一、本院委\n員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬\n具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案；二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五\n條之二條文修正草案」案；二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等 17 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17 人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案\n（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144501_00004"}}},{"id":"160764","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160764","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423698e2d2a5a56f3109c0ca66b6f3bc7c703c2100e055cb59403c30ece9fadaa79bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"09:59:20 - 10:09:13","影片長度":"00:09:53","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T09:59:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:09:13+08:00","duration":593,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.26284375,"end":3.4397187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.6040937500000005,"end":4.620968749999999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.620968749999999,"end":6.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.333468750000002,"end":8.974718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.059093750000002,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.134718750000001,"end":13.800968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.969718750000002,"end":15.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.43346875,"end":52.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.38971875,"end":112.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.56596875000001,"end":136.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.29221875000002,"end":140.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.54909375,"end":191.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.19346875000002,"end":148.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.68034375000002,"end":195.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.54471875000002,"end":291.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.47471875,"end":301.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.60409375,"end":303.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.96659375,"end":304.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.96221875000003,"end":308.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.67909375,"end":309.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.28221875,"end":311.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.04159375,"end":311.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.08784375000005,"end":340.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.31096875000003,"end":316.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.14909375,"end":324.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.87784375,"end":332.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.05784375,"end":359.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.17159375,"end":343.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.31659375000004,"end":359.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.05909375000005,"end":379.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.97159375,"end":381.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.04284375000003,"end":406.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.85409375,"end":403.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.98846875000004,"end":414.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.94534375,"end":413.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.66659375,"end":415.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.66221875,"end":523.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.67909375,"end":524.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.6072187500001,"end":530.5303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.74971875,"end":569.2922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.71846875,"end":542.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.89784375,"end":555.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.6297187499999,"end":585.7453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.5322187500001,"end":573.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.8928437500001,"end":592.9678437499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":1.673,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請蕭院長請蕭院長備諮詢 謝謝"},{"start":11.465,"end":31.222,"text":"剛剛很多委員都提到今年是否百年願慶可是藍白兩黨攜手送給了故宮一個大禮那就是小致水電費大致國際交流費用全部湖山亂動預算搞到故宮的百歲生日恐怕成為百年浩劫"},{"start":32.343,"end":52.488,"text":"藍白亂砍預算不但讓故宮一切分類工作顯得進退兩難左右為難而且也一笑大方一笑國際讓全世界看到竟然有一個國家的國會是這樣的二整全人類珍貴文化遺產我們來看鎖定費一升升的一千多萬沒了"},{"start":53.488,"end":57.05,"text":"請問院長 這樣的基本維運的這個必要費用你要在哪裡去犧牲來結長補短是要犧牲這個展覽的品質嗎還是要犧牲行政的品質還有另外 剛剛院長你也一直強調你去年就說2025 今年的北院參觀人次你預計要達到250萬喔南院要突破100萬人次總共要350萬喔"},{"start":80.939,"end":100.945,"text":"但是今年媒體政策業務宣傳費一半以上都被刪掉900多萬預算被刪了500多萬在宣傳費不足的情況之下我想請教院長故宮的各鄉活動的資訊要如何擴及各族群你去年地下參展人數的目標會修正嗎"},{"start":102.865,"end":112.051,"text":"那故宮的業務單位回給我們辦公室的文件是非常憂心忡忡表示恐怕會影響參觀人士院長你如何回應"},{"start":114.038,"end":127.347,"text":"人質方面的話我當然還是給自己一個期望值就是350萬是沒有變但是調整北苑240萬然後南苑的話因為今年有大美復原的話南苑的話110萬總體是250萬那當然沒有錯水電會被刪的話因為水電的結算數已經超過預算數所以它勢必會"},{"start":137.338,"end":166.938,"text":"有挪動啦就是因為水電會他是可以他是可以留用的所以我們可能會留用推廣教育的經費所以原來的譬如說百萬鞋子有故宮啊我們還是繼續辦但場次就會減少像這樣的推廣活動的話他就會相對減少因為沒有經費那當然為了不讓這個減少太過急劇的話我們是有跟社會企業跟宮廟共同合作希望說把這一塊也補起來就不要讓他有太大的落差"},{"start":167.798,"end":191.034,"text":"那宣傳的部分的話當然這是一個比較大的問題我們宣傳的話今年的話大概透過兩個大的國外的展覽一個是大美部園然後一個是大都會我們千拜託萬拜託拜託的合作單位加大力道宣傳因為來看這個展覽的話當然也會讓其他的展覽同樣收到關注這樣子"},{"start":191.752,"end":211.012,"text":"好 那我們再來看看國際交流的部分中國旅費的部分有八成以上都被刪掉17萬被刪成剩3萬那這是不是表示中國今年的我們的學術研討故宮就沒有辦法參加會不會影響故宮學術研究的成果"},{"start":211.593,"end":218.317,"text":"那至於我們要到其他國家的旅費也被刪了一半喔 297萬當中的178萬全部沒了那我們去年開開心心的規劃 您剛也提到像說今年我們要跟法國的這個"},{"start":227.803,"end":256.238,"text":"凱布朗利的博物館要攜手展出龍展讓法國的民眾進一步認識東方的龍文化就現在出國旅費倍大三那故宮也計畫今年9月到12月要到捷克我們要到捷克的布拉格國家博物館攜手合作要舉辦一個故宮文物百選及其故事的特展我們高人氣的翠玉白菜啊清明上河土等等這種藏品 供祭百件都要到捷克去"},{"start":256.938,"end":278.421,"text":"院長不管要去法國還是要去捷克旅費的短缺那故宮業務單位其實也是相當程度的憂心回去我們辦公室的文件也指出說不管是布展還是卸展還是開幕活動的安排人力都會有狀況也可能會影響到國際文化交流的成效所以我想進一步請教院長的是說"},{"start":279.102,"end":283.506,"text":"人力的不足是不是會讓我們寶貴的文物處在危險的狀態或者又會讓外國人覺得台灣對文物的維護會如此的隨便院長你怎麼覺得"},{"start":292.541,"end":310.562,"text":"跟委員報告就是有關考察的部分的話我們衡量整個經會的情況考察的部分的話我們就暫時就擱置考察考察的部分單純考察的部分你說在國內的考察國外的國外的考察"},{"start":311.283,"end":339.684,"text":"但是包括那個大陸對 中國這個就不去了因為大家不了解故宮最主要的經費出國經費是用在壓印跟布卸展上面如果是說那個壓印布卸展的話沒有這樣的經費的話它就會影響到整個布卸展的品質跟它的規劃這個的確所以我們也在尋求另外的一些資源可以讓這個活動"},{"start":341.127,"end":359.423,"text":"可以順利進行因為我不能講說因為預算被刪然後我們就會讓這個工作停擺或是說讓他的文物安全受到障礙所以這個部分的話我們有在尋求其他的方式來解決明白的講就是我們在找社會贊助好"},{"start":360.503,"end":381.098,"text":"好 那我們再看一般事務費也被刪了4700多萬再在故宮回給本辦的資料上面來看這筆預算招刪會嚴重影響展場的品質跟文物的安全還有相關展覽活動所以院長 怎麼樣因應這個危機特別是文物的安全"},{"start":383.089,"end":405.776,"text":"這個我跟委員報告就是說站在故宮的一個立場我們還是會想辦法克服這些困難所以當然就是有一些部分的話會有所影響譬如說南苑的我們有一些開放性的一般的所謂的維護那這個合約的話我們就停掉了然後把它整併到另外一個合約上面來處理"},{"start":407.496,"end":425.796,"text":"盡量不要影響到故宮 不管南北苑的一個展覽品質跟它的文物的保護所以啊 藍白刪預算刪掉了故宮的宣傳行銷刪掉了故宮的國際外交這個其實是真的蠻惡劣的玩笑"},{"start":426.417,"end":445.006,"text":"那行銷跟外銷對一個國際級的博物館來看喔重要性是不言可喻喔那好 那我想我要呼籲喔為了盡可能彌補這個三預算的錯誤我想不分黨派的委員應該要無條件來全數解凍故宮的預算所以 反正"},{"start":445.726,"end":452.95,"text":"預算被刪了就刪了沒得救了好 那我們再來談談我們藍白委員還有機會來修正自身錯誤的凍結案尤其在院會的凍結業務費有兩億兩千萬元在教委會的我們根本沒有任何立場就如同剛剛葛昭偉也說其實我們對於故宮是最沒有意識形態的"},{"start":468.54,"end":485.23,"text":"當初我們在教文委員會在審查今年度的預算的時候我們是高度的共識而且我們沒有任何一項預算是出了委員會還有爭議就沒有任何預算是需要到協商程程序喔所以請大家記得今年度的教文委員會審查預算"},{"start":486.551,"end":510.681,"text":"預算臨岸保留 也就是說軟白在院會亂刪 亂動我們教文組折的預算的時候推翻我們教文委員會所花費的一個會期去專業用心審查的結果根本就是在浪費國家資源 毫無正當性所以請國民黨跟民眾黨的教文委員真的不要再將錯就錯讓我們把一起 把院會被凍結的業務費兩億兩千萬元 完整的還給故宮所以最後"},{"start":516.866,"end":522.862,"text":"針對這個預算解凍的程序 院長你有什麼樣的呼籲或者你現在有什麼需要說明的"},{"start":524.961,"end":535.227,"text":"這個部分的話在委員會的話在凍結的部分的話4億2千250萬就包括那個新故宮計畫3億5千萬那另外的話 宴會凍結的話後來我們整個精算出來的話2億2千180萬總共的話是6億4千681萬"},{"start":547.634,"end":567.201,"text":"用故宮的預算來算的話超過20%的這個凍結的話在過去的話是前所未有的因為過去的凍結的話最高最高都不會超過3%現在不會超過3%現在的話是20%基本上來講的話如果不解凍的話對故宮接下來的業務運作絕對會有影響"},{"start":569.713,"end":592.478,"text":"所以你的解凍案我知道您已經送了嘛是 已經送了好 那就等到可以委員會來排的時候我們就要進速來排解凍案也希望我們藍白委員共同來支持解凍OK 謝謝院長 謝謝主席好 謝謝林一錦召委的質詢我們官員請回座那相關的這個"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":255,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（9時59分）謝謝主席，有請蕭院長。"],["主席：請蕭院長備詢，謝謝。"],["蕭院長宗煌：召委早。"],["林委員宜瑾：院長好。剛剛很多委員都提到今年適逢百年院慶，可是藍白兩黨攜手送給了故宮一個大禮，小至水電費、大至國際交流費用，全部胡刪亂凍預算，搞到故宮的百歲生日恐怕成為百年浩劫，藍白亂砍預算，不但讓故宮一切份內工作顯得進退兩難、左右為難，而且也貽笑大方、貽笑國際，讓全世界看到竟然有一個國家的國會這樣惡整全人類珍貴的文化遺產。我們來看水電費硬生生的一千多萬沒了，請問院長，這樣的基本維運的必要費用，你要從哪裡去犧牲來截長補短？是要犧牲展覽的品質，還是要犧牲行政的品質？另外剛剛院長也一直強調，你去年就說今年2025年北院的參觀人次預計達到250萬，南院要突破100萬人次，總共要350萬，不過今年媒體政策、業務宣傳費一半以上都被刪掉，九百多萬預算被刪了五百多萬，在宣傳費不足的情況之下，我想請教院長，故宮的各項活動資訊要如何擴及各族群？你去年訂下的參展人數目標會修正嗎？故宮業務單位回給我們辦公室的文件表示憂心忡忡，恐怕會影響參觀人次，院長，你如何回應？"],["蕭院長宗煌：在人次方面，我當然還是給自己一個期望值，就是350萬是沒有變，但是調整為北院240萬，南院因為今年有「大美不言」是110萬，總共是350萬。沒有錯，水電費被刪，因為水電的決算數已經超過預算數，所以它勢必會挪動，因為水電費是可以流用的，所以我們可能會流用推廣教育的經費，譬如原來的「百萬學子遊故宮」，我們還是繼續辦，但場次就會減少，像這樣的推廣活動就會相對減少，因為沒有經費。當然為了不讓這個減少太過急遽，我們是有跟社會企業、宮廟共同合作，希望把這一塊補起來，不讓它有太大的落差。在宣傳的部分，這是一個比較大的問題，我們今年的宣傳大概是透過兩個大的國外展覽，一個是「大美不言」，一個是「大都會」，我們千拜託、萬拜託，拜託合作單位加大力道宣傳，因為來看這個展覽的話，當然也會讓其他的展覽同樣受到關注。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，那我們再來看看國際交流的部分，中國旅費的部分有八成以上都被刪掉，17萬被刪剩下3萬，這是不是表示中國今年的學術研討，故宮就沒有辦法參加？會不會影響故宮學術研究的成果？至於到其他國家的旅費也被刪了一半，297萬當中的178萬全部沒了。我們去年開開心心的規劃，您剛剛也提到，今年我們要跟法國凱布朗利博物館攜手展出「龍」展，讓法國的民眾進一步認識東方的龍文化，結果現在出國旅費被大刪；故宮也計畫今年9月到12月要到捷克的布拉格，和他們的國家博物館攜手合作，舉辦一個「故宮文物百選及其故事」的特展，我們高人氣的翠玉白菜、清明上河圖等等展品共計百件都要到捷克去。院長，不管要去法國還是要去捷克，旅費的短缺，故宮業務單位其實也是相當程度的憂心，回應我們辦公室的文件也指出，不管是布展、卸展還是開幕活動的安排，人力都會有狀況，也可能會影響到國際文化交流成效。所以，我想進一步請教院長，人力的不足是不是會讓我們寶貴的文物處在危險的狀態，或者又會讓外國人覺得臺灣對文物的維護如此隨便？院長，你怎麼覺得？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，有關考察的部分，我們衡量整個經費的情況，考察的部分我們就暫時擱置，單純考察的部分。"],["林委員宜瑾：你說在國內的考察？"],["蕭院長宗煌：國外的考察，包括大陸，但是因為……"],["林委員宜瑾：對，中國這個就不去了？"],["蕭院長宗煌：展覽的部分因為大家不了解，故宮最主要的出國經費是用在押運跟布、卸展上面，如果押運跟布、卸展沒有這樣的經費，就會影響到整個布、卸展的品質跟規劃。"],["林委員宜瑾：對。"],["蕭院長宗煌：所以我們也在尋求另外的一些資源，可以讓這個活動順利進行。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，好不容易嘛。"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為我不能講因為預算被刪，然後我們就讓這個工作停擺或讓文物安全受到障礙，所以這個部分，我們在尋求其他的方式來解決，明白的講，就是我們在找社會贊助。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。那我們再來看一般事務費也被刪了四千七百多萬，在故宮回給本辦的資料上來看，這筆預算遭刪會嚴重影響展場的品質、文物的安全，還有相關展覽活動，所以院長怎麼樣因應這個危機，特別是文物的安全？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，站在故宮的立場，我們還是會想辦法克服這些困難，當然就是有一些部分會有所影響，譬如南院有一些開放性的一般維護，這個合約我們就停掉了，把它整併到另外一個合約上來處理，儘量不要影響到故宮不管南院、北院的展覽品質跟文物的保護。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，所以藍白刪預算，刪掉了故宮的宣傳行銷，刪掉了故宮的國際外交，這其實真的是蠻惡劣的玩笑。行銷跟外銷對一個國際級的博物館來說，重要性不可言喻，我想我要呼籲，為了儘可能彌補這個刪預算的錯誤，不分黨派的委員應該要無條件來全數解凍故宮的預算，反正預算被刪了就刪了，沒得救了嘛。","我們再來談談藍白委員還有機會來修正自身錯誤的凍結案，尤其在院會凍結的業務費有2億2,000萬元，在教文委員會的我們根本沒有任何立場，就如同剛剛葛召委也說，其實我們對於故宮是最沒有意識形態的，當初我們教文委員會在審查今年度預算的時候有高度的共識，而且沒有任何一項預算是出了委員會還有爭議的，就是沒有任何預算需要走協商程序的，所以請大家記得，教文委員會審查今年度的預算是零案保留，也就是藍、白在院會亂刪、亂凍我們教文主責的預算時，推翻了我們教文委員會花費一個會期專業用心審查的結果，根本就是在浪費國家資源，毫無正當性。所以，請國民黨跟民眾黨的教文委員真的不要再將錯就錯，讓我們一起把被院會凍結的業務費2億2,000萬元完整的還給故宮。最後針對預算解凍的程序，院長，你有什麼樣的呼籲，或者你現在有什麼需要說明的？"],["蕭院長宗煌：這部分在委員會凍結的有4億2,250萬，包括新故宮計畫3億5,000萬，另外院會表決凍結的，後來我們整個精算出來是2億2,180萬，總共是6億4,681萬，用故宮的預算來算，超過20%的凍結是前所未有的，因為過去的凍結最高都不會超過3%，現在是20%，如果不解凍的話，對故宮接下來的業務運作絕對會有影響。"],["林委員宜瑾：我知道你的解凍案已經送了嘛。"],["蕭院長宗煌：是，已經送了。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，那就等到委員會可以排的時候，我們就儘速來排解凍案，也希望藍白委員共同來支持解凍，謝謝院長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾召委的質詢，官員請回座。","相關的凍結案各黨都有，我們各黨也一起來努力。","接下來請陳秀寳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-9","speakers":["葛如鈞","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","林宜瑾","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","范雲","郭昱晴","陳冠廷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林沛祥","張雅琳"],"page_start":315,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00007"}}},{"id":"160763","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160763","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b942369f531091fea500c93693dd611367b4dddc2100e055cb59403a4760fc26950f44b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:57:52 - 10:08:35","影片長度":"00:10:43","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查「保險法」15案：\n一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案。【後3案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第一百二十三條之一條文草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T09:57:52+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:08:35+08:00","duration":643,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-10"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.50346875,"end":1.8534687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.17409375,"end":3.2878437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.7809687499999995,"end":7.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.92846875,"end":27.992843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.39784375,"end":42.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.53909375,"end":46.470968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.92659375,"end":48.377843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.377843750000004,"end":48.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.41159375,"end":53.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.727218750000006,"end":60.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.35471875,"end":68.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.79659375,"end":72.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.13346875,"end":80.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.03534375000001,"end":93.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.14284375000001,"end":106.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.07096875,"end":98.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.02284375,"end":111.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.96284375,"end":111.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.99659375,"end":126.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.04721875000001,"end":113.73471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.73471875000001,"end":113.75159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.44346875000001,"end":114.64596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.61034375000001,"end":129.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.59284375000001,"end":138.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.96284375000002,"end":159.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.02721875,"end":200.86034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.28284375,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.97034375,"end":199.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.46784375000001,"end":217.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.66784375,"end":226.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.22346875000002,"end":229.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.84346875000003,"end":228.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.78846875000002,"end":229.10909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.10909375000003,"end":236.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.12596875000003,"end":229.15971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.93909375,"end":240.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.17471875,"end":248.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.70096875000002,"end":256.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.09221875000003,"end":256.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.98659375,"end":262.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.50534375,"end":261.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.52159375,"end":262.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.12909375000004,"end":265.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.94721875,"end":274.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.90346875,"end":278.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.80596875000003,"end":279.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.32471875000005,"end":283.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.24409375,"end":285.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.48409375,"end":288.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.75784375,"end":310.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.94284375,"end":294.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.27346875,"end":313.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.60221875,"end":324.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.79034375000003,"end":324.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.90409375,"end":325.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.97159375,"end":326.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.50721875,"end":349.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.90659375,"end":337.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.64909375,"end":338.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.57971875000004,"end":349.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.90034375000005,"end":349.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.91721875,"end":351.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.03096875,"end":395.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.82409375000003,"end":353.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.98596875000004,"end":403.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.39409375,"end":413.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.14846875,"end":409.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.58659375,"end":439.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.25346875,"end":439.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.14784375000005,"end":454.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.01471875000004,"end":456.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.60096875000005,"end":471.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.70596875,"end":459.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.50221875000005,"end":468.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.61971875,"end":478.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.03221875,"end":478.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.65659375,"end":517.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.60409375,"end":519.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.6584687500001,"end":521.7553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.85659375,"end":522.7678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.4428437500001,"end":525.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.65346875,"end":528.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.3490937500001,"end":530.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.5090937500001,"end":532.4878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":531.81284375,"end":532.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.67346875,"end":535.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.06971875,"end":536.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.06096875,"end":537.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.8034687500001,"end":538.4109687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.5122187500001,"end":542.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.6128437500001,"end":545.2790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.84409375,"end":550.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.0803437500001,"end":548.6372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.2065937500001,"end":580.4128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.8172187499999,"end":558.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.6015937500001,"end":561.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.6897187500001,"end":564.1284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.75034375,"end":582.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.77534375,"end":585.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":585.96471875,"end":592.6472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.45346875,"end":590.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":592.88346875,"end":597.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.29659375,"end":595.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.35971875,"end":596.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.96284375,"end":603.8015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.47721875,"end":600.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.33784375,"end":601.9453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.26159375,"end":621.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":621.1997187500001,"end":621.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.99284375,"end":622.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":622.53284375,"end":628.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.56659375,"end":622.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.66784375,"end":624.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.3759687500001,"end":632.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.08409375,"end":632.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.82659375,"end":632.8603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.8603437500001,"end":633.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.8390937500001,"end":637.3828437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.694,"end":3.091,"text":"主席有請彭主委好 請彭主委"},{"start":6.809,"end":34.287,"text":"委員好主委好那個保單可否強制執行嚴格來說在法界原來有不同的一些聲音有的是否定說有的是肯定說至少在105年的時候高等法院的這個法律座談來自於各級的法院的代表討論的時候還是相對是否定的可是到了這一個大法庭會議的時候裁定的就變成是肯定的"},{"start":35.368,"end":60.064,"text":"那主委,依照你是主委你又是學者的一個角度來說的話你是比較贊同否定還是肯定?跟委員報告,假設我現在還是彭老師的話,我會持否定說你會支持否定對不對?對謝謝你,直截了當而說我個人老實講,我是否定派的啦我覺得基本上這個法官造法不是一件好事它只是一份而形成一種社會亂源"},{"start":61.445,"end":67.726,"text":"可是當你主委的時候你如果是否定的話你現在的修法態度你是採取一個順從的態度啊"},{"start":69.037,"end":92.507,"text":"不是,我現在的態度是需要,因為畢竟是對一個主張你可以有自己一方之見但是我們現在是站在金管委員長,我要解決這個問題對,你要解決問題,你就是用順他的邏輯來想要解決這個問題嘛基本上也是順從他邏輯的方向在解決嘛難道沒有一個方式來推翻掉這一個大法官會議的裁定嗎?"},{"start":94.415,"end":111.061,"text":"其實某種程度我們已經在修正這個內容就是我們已經在修正這個內容但就是說我剛才講說我現在是金管做我不是你是降低它把這個衝擊降低到最小你現在方式是修正的方式我們回到它的本質去就是說合以"},{"start":112.301,"end":129.247,"text":"對 你用本質意圖在做一些排除啦沒有錯 你要做一些排除我知道但是類似這種是對整個社會保險的一種衝擊欸制度的衝擊法官造法是對這個社會保險的衝擊做一個金管會的主委不是應該要捍衛這個保險制度才對嗎"},{"start":130.632,"end":158.921,"text":"他整個把他衝擊掉以後你再去修修補補他拿一個大卡車放在你的牆壯掉以後你再重新砌牆不是嗎這個看法我跟委員有稍稍不同在學理上可以有非常明確的二分法否定說肯定說他的目的是要再把他對方的論述能夠講得更清楚一點但實際上你會發現說否定說他也不會去否定肯定說的一些主張肯定說也不會去否認否定說的一些主張"},{"start":159.401,"end":170.253,"text":"對啦 但是就比例上來說啦就否定來說還是相對比較合理性嘛我這裡頭有寫了 但是我們不是在爭論這個重點我們還是要爭論到回到現實的問題嘛在2023年的時候總共高達123件那2024年的時候每個月的事件多在成長2025年的部分呢 現在是5萬件在做成長"},{"start":180.163,"end":197.352,"text":"就這些來說的話大法庭會議裡頭雖然說要讓相關當事人有陳述的機會相關當事人分散在全國各地可是你所有的案件都集中在台北法院你覺得交通成本還有時間成本來說划得來嗎一來是這個徵徵會議陳情不多嘛對不對"},{"start":201.534,"end":206.757,"text":"那第二來 你有沒有真正統計過整個呢 123萬件當中真正有執行的9.1萬件佔了不過是7.4%而已到底這個9.1萬件強制執行的結果的保單價值多少你們有沒有做過統計"},{"start":217.731,"end":240.174,"text":"我們有請工會去了解這個的比率啊詳細的金額必須要看他逐漸去看因為他已經進入到司法程序沒有我說9.1萬件已經執行完成嘛對你至少從這樣子往前推嘛尤其是這個標的當中的執行講白一點就是法院在幫人家要債嘛要債的這個是否符合這個成本嘛對不對"},{"start":241.335,"end":264.81,"text":"我覺得這個是很重要的 否則的話你做了一個裁決不符社會成本 動用那麼多人 你去看喔整個台北地院一個執行官 夯不啷噹手頭都有兩三千件根本負荷不了 其實你剛剛回答其他委員說你可能會減掉七成好了減到七成 剩下三成也很多耶"},{"start":266.004,"end":288.045,"text":"不是嗎 是即便你修法之後你減掉七成還是很多耶而且你修這個執法法院幫人要債好到誰好到這個銀行 金融機構 保險公司還有什麼最為社會詬病的三大融資公司啊九成都是法人耶10%才是自然人而已耶"},{"start":289.953,"end":310.019,"text":"這還什麼公平正義可言嗎 主委拿國家的機器在幫這些法人在社會上既得利益者來要債而且大部分都是你們當初在通過這些保險項目的這些被保險需要被保險他需要收益的時候他權益就被拿掉了"},{"start":311.596,"end":324.535,"text":"幫到什麼程度 主委一般而言啦債權人還不能去這個公會上網查詢相關資料結果他可以申請 叫法院幫他申請資料法院服務做到這種程度 對不對"},{"start":328.984,"end":349.222,"text":"我剛才說過這次的修法不是由金管會主動要來修法是因為我們被動因為這已經衍生了社會的問題所以我才想說我們也很希望趕快來解決這個問題而且是能夠從根本的本質上剛剛想說雖然說沒有錯大部分都是法人機構去執行但是剛剛也有"},{"start":350.023,"end":369.871,"text":"大概10%也是很有可能是一些對那他的架構是說可能長期在這個保單當中嘛所以我剛剛問你說到底他真的產值有多少嘛這個才能建構起來他的正當性嘛跟他的利潤基礎嘛然後你現在呢弄一個版本說多久一張保單當中的7萬多塊啦免強制執行的保單要7萬多塊"},{"start":374.053,"end":394.782,"text":"大概約莫是台北市這個三個月的最多生活保障嘛對不對老實講我老實說我認為是偏低啦至少要變成是double變六個月啦我是跟你交換心得啦那另外一個部分呢有關於這一個呢介乎於社會保險跟商業保險之間的這一種小額中老保險喔"},{"start":396.282,"end":413.541,"text":"這種社會保險性質算蠻高 當初政府算是鼓勵的這綜合保險的這個金額大概是10到90萬之間類似這種應該折衷不管幾張保單只要是50萬以下應該免執行包括這些都應該思考一下 主委你認為是不是比較合理一些"},{"start":414.242,"end":434.11,"text":"跟委員報告一下,就剛才委員提到的兩點第一個就是額度的部分,我剛才在一開始報告的時候已經講很明確這點的話,我們是持開放態度社會有共識,我覺得委員有共識,我們都尊重再來剛才講,假設認為有其他的因為我們在修法,我們要以本於一個橫平的角度我們把它提出一般化的這個內容,比如說我們針對"},{"start":434.99,"end":454.511,"text":"一定金額以下的人壽保險跟年金保險不得做強制執行但是比如說還有其他社會的考慮我們也尊重只是說我們剛才對小額綜合保險不要用一個商品名稱來定義它因為這個不具有那個持續性我剛才講因為小額綜合保險不是一個我們保險法上面的這個"},{"start":457.033,"end":477.142,"text":"週延的名詞它是一種商品的名稱它其實本質跟假設有人買了一個叫做終身壽險跟一個定期壽險其實本質上沒有太大的差別它就是一個終身壽險對 重點是本質啊對 就是它就是一個終身壽險一個商業的終身壽險只是它的保費相對比較便宜核保比較寬鬆一點是"},{"start":479.324,"end":492.699,"text":"對 然後接下來那個主委這些反正我們後續還會再討論那最近金管會面臨一些棲產地的問題就是台資他假冒外資來割韭菜他怎麼割呢"},{"start":493.72,"end":518.786,"text":"就是他在海外有一些維京群島、開曼群島等等來設定了不同的一個帳戶然後進行這個進入台灣內部來進行炒股票跟洗錢的一個資金跟本土的券商跟外資的券商來做結合互相買賣拉抬甚至跟國內的一些不肖的頭顧分析勾結然後出貨然後來割韭菜主委你有沒有看到這個消息"},{"start":520.937,"end":544.334,"text":"這個部分的話 我想因為我們可不可以調查局報告喔隔日當沖大戶來自海外喔有沒有去了解這個訊息有沒有去調查委員我可不可以請那個旗局局長來跟您說明一下來 旗局局長來 局長請張局長委員 這個目前來講我們等於當沖的交易是降低了現在只有32%的百分比"},{"start":547.901,"end":575.613,"text":"我們現在市場當中就要已經降了這樣我實在聽不太清楚口罩遮了很遠然後距離也很近沒有 主委我關心這件事情就是不要讓這種外資炒股的狀況來發生然後這種假外資資本屬性要去確認今天如果是台資假外資這是一種狀況今天港資是一種狀況今天中資又是另一種狀況不同的資本屬性所造成的資本市場的困擾有造成不一樣的後遺症"},{"start":577.034,"end":595.646,"text":"所以主委以前的外資很容易設定這些斷點那你要如何去突破不然的話遲早都會出現這些大問題這我們現在也關注到這個問題因為我們大概也會朝這個方向針對比如說未來他們申請的時候資訊的提供這些東西我們都要來強化還是說這些內容"},{"start":598.748,"end":619.802,"text":"剛剛講說因為我們會面臨到新的狀況我們就要有新的做法這我非常同意委員的這些建議這外面在查詢的過程當中我知道你過去其實也蠻困難的但蠻困難的情況底下還是有其他的可能性嘛去尋找一些合作對象簽訂MOU或什麼方式可能主委你在這個部分如果你後續還有一些餘力跟時間的話我覺得應該做這些鋪陳是"},{"start":622.062,"end":636.45,"text":"可以嗎可以我想這部分也是一個對那個最終受益人資本的管理我想這些都是對應該要啦這個雖然是中長期還是值得做啦否則的話衝擊太大啦謝謝主委謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝國文接著請李燕秀委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":322,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時57分）主席，有請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：主委好。保單可否強制執行這件事，嚴格來說，在法界原來有不同的一些聲音，有的是否定說，有的是肯定說。在105年高等法院的法律座談，來自於各級法院代表討論的時候還是相對否定的，可是到了大法庭會議的時候，裁定變成肯定的。主委，依照你是主委又是學者的一個角度來說，你是比較贊同否定還是肯定？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，假設我現在還是彭老師的話，我會持否定說。"],["郭委員國文：你會支持否定，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝你直截了當的說，我個人老實講我也是否定派的，我覺得基本上法官造法不是一件好事，他治絲益棼而形成一種社會亂源。可是當你是主委，如果你是否定的話，你現在的修法態度是採取順從的態度啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，我現在的態度是……因為對一個主張可以有自己一方之見，但是我們現在是站在金管會立場，我要解決這個問題。"],["郭委員國文：你要解決問題，基本上是順從他那個邏輯的方向在解決，難道沒有一個方式來推翻掉這個大法官會議的裁定嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實某種程度我們已經在修正這個內容。"],["郭委員國文：有沒有可能比如說釋憲或是其他的手段？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們已經在修正這個內容，但我剛才說我現在是金管會主委，我不是……"],["郭委員國文：你是把這個衝擊降低到最小，你現在方式是修正的方式。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們回到他的本質，就是何以這個會成為債務人的……"],["郭委員國文：你從本質裡頭再做一些排除啦，沒有錯，你要做一些排除，我知道。但是法官造法是對整個社會保險制度的衝擊，你做金管會的主委不是應該要捍衛這個保險制度才對嗎？他整個衝擊掉後，你再修修補補，他拿大卡車把你的牆撞掉以後，你才重新砌牆，不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個看法我跟委員有稍稍不同，在學理上可以有非常明確的二分法，否定說、肯定說，目的是要再把對方的論述能夠講得更清楚一點，但實際上，你會發覺否定說也不會去否定肯定說的一些主張，肯定說也不會去否認否定說的一些主張。"],["郭委員國文：對啦！但是就比例上來說，否定說還是相對比較合理，我這裡頭有寫了，但是我們不是在爭論這個重點，我們還是要回到現實的問題，在2023年強制執行案件數總共高達123萬件，2024年每個月都四萬多件在成長，2025年是5萬件成長，大法庭會議裡頭雖然說要讓相關當事人有陳述的機會，而相關當事人分散在全國各地，可是所有案件都集中在臺北法院，你覺得交通成本還有時間成本來說，划得來嗎？一來是這個……"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實這衍生出……"],["郭委員國文：真正會去陳情不多，對不對？第二，你有沒有統計過123萬件當中，真正有執行是9.1萬件，占了不過是7.4%而已，到底這9.1萬件強制執行結果的保單價值是多少，你們有沒有做過統計？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們有請公會去了解這個比率，詳細金額必須要逐件去看，因為它已經進入到司法程序。"],["郭委員國文：沒有，我說9.1萬件已經執行完成，你至少從這樣往前推，也就是這個標的執行，講白一點就是法院在幫人家要債，要債是否符合成本？我覺得這個是很重要的，否則做了一個裁決不符社會成本，動用那麼多人，整個臺北地院一個執行官夯不啷噹手頭都有兩、三千件，根本負荷不了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以我們要趕快來處理這個問題。"],["郭委員國文：即便你剛剛回答其他委員說你可能會減掉七成好了，減掉七成，剩下三成也很多，不是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["郭委員國文：即便你修法之後，減掉七成還是很多耶！而且你修了這個，法院幫人要債，好到誰？好到這些銀行、金融機構、保險公司，還有什麼？最為社會詬病的三大融資公司，90%都是法人，10%才是自然人，主委，這還有什麼公平正義可言嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們從比例上看……"],["郭委員國文：拿國家的機器在幫這些法人、在社會上既得利益者來要債，而且大部分都是你們當初在通過這些保險項目的被保險人，需要被保險，他需要受益的時候，他的權益就被拿掉了。而且幫到什麼程度？主委，一般而言，債權人還不能去這個公會上網查詢相關資料，結果他可以申請叫法院幫他申請資料，法院服務做到這種程度。"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，我剛才說過這次的修法不是由金管會主動要來修法，我們是被動，因為這已經衍生了社會的問題，我們也很希望趕快來解決這個問題，而且是能從根本的本質上……剛剛講的，雖然沒有錯，大部分都是法人機構去執行，但是也有大概10%也是很有可能是一些……"],["郭委員國文：10%啦！它的架構是可能藏潛在這個保單當中，所以我剛剛問你，到底它真正的殘值有多少？才能建構起來它的正當性跟利潤基礎，然後你現在弄一個版本，一張免強制執行的保單七萬多塊，約莫是臺北市三個月的生活保障，老實說我認為是偏低，至少要double變六個月，我是跟你交換心得。","另外，關於介於社會保險跟商業保險之間的小額終老保險，這種社會保險性質算蠻高，當初政府算是鼓勵的，終老保險的金額大概是10萬到90萬之間，類似這種應該折衷，不管幾張保單，只要是50萬以下應該免執行，包括這些都應該思考一下，主委，你認為這是不是比較合理一些？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，剛才委員提到的兩點，第一個是額度的部分，我剛才在一開始報告的時候已經講得很明確，這一點我們是持開放態度，社會有共識，委員有共識，我們都尊重。再來，假設認為有其他的，因為我們修法要本於一個衡平的角度，我們提出一般化的內容，比如，針對一定金額以下的人壽保險和年金保險不得做強制執行，但是如果還有其他的社會考慮，我們也尊重。只是我們認為對小額終老保險不要用一個商品名稱來定義它，因為這個不具有持續性，我剛才有講，小額終老保險不是保險法上面一個周延的名詞，它是一種商品名稱，假設有人買了一個終身壽險以及一個定期壽險，其實本質上沒有太大的差別，它就是一個終身壽險。"],["郭委員國文：對，重點是本質。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，它就是一個終身壽險，一個商業的終身壽險，只是它的保費相對比較便宜，核保比較寬鬆一點。"],["郭委員國文：主委，反正我們後續還會再討論。接下來，最近金管會也面臨一些洗產地的問題，就是臺資假冒外資來割韭菜，它怎麼割呢？它到海外一些維京群島、開曼群島等等設定不同的帳戶，進入臺灣內部來進行炒股票和洗錢的資金，與本土券商、外資券商結合來互相買賣、拉抬，甚至跟國內一些不肖投顧分析師勾結，出貨來割韭菜，主委，你有沒有看到這個消息？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個部分我們可不可以請……"],["郭委員國文：依調查局報告，隔日當沖大戶來自海外，你們有沒有去瞭解這個訊息，有沒有去調查？"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員，我可不可以請證期局局長來跟你說明一下？"],["郭委員國文：證期局張局長請。"],["張局長振山：委員，目前來講，我們整個當沖的交易是降低的，現在只有32%，我們現在市場的當沖交易已經降低了。"],["郭委員國文：這樣我實在聽不太清楚，口罩遮得很嚴，然後距離也沒有很近。主委，我關心這件事情就是不要讓這種外資炒股的狀況發生，這種假外資的資本屬性也要去確認，臺資假外資是一種狀況，港資是一種狀況，中資又是另外一種狀況，不同的資本屬性所造成的資本市場困擾，也造成不一樣的後遺症。所以主委，以前外資很容易設定這些斷點，你要如何去突破？不然遲早都會出現這些大問題。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在也關注到這個問題，因為我們大概也會朝這個方向，比如，針對他們未來申請時的資訊提供等這些東西，我們都要來強化，還有這些內容，剛才講到因為我們會面臨到新的狀況，我們就要有新的作法，我非常同意委員的這些意見。"],["郭委員國文：外面在查詢的過程當中，我知道你們過去其實也滿困難的，但滿困難的情況底下還是有其他的可能性，比如去尋找一些合作對象簽訂MOU或什麼方式，主委，你在這個部分如果後續還有一些餘力和時間的話，我覺得應該做這些鋪陳，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以，這部分也是一個對最終受益人資本的管理，這些都是我們應該要做的。"],["郭委員國文：應該要啦！這個雖然是中長期，還是值得做，否則的話衝擊太大，謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文。","接著請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-10","speakers":["賴惠員","黃珊珊","羅智強","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","羅明才","李坤城","黃國昌","陳玉珍","王世堅","林思銘","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","徐富癸","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查「保險法」15案：一、行政院函請審議、本院委員蔡其昌等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員\n王世堅等18人、委員徐富癸等16人、委員蔡其昌等19人、委員蔡易餘等18人、委員林思銘等18人\n分別擬具「保險法部分條文修正草案」等8案；二、本院委員鍾佳濱等21人擬具「保險法增訂第\n一百二十三條之一條文草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員陳超明等16人、委員羅智強等\n19人、委員李坤城等23人、委員賴瑞隆等17人、委員王美惠等17人分別擬具「保險法增訂第一百\n七十四條之二及第一百七十四條之三條文草案」等6案","agenda_id":"1144301_00006"}}},{"id":"160762","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160762","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b94236903e60e0ca860c53b3c0ba1d923b4b8dbc2100e055cb594032f620ca07494474b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"09:57:43 - 10:05:54","影片長度":"00:08:11","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查： \n一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員劉建國等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員李坤城等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、本院委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案。\n二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案。（詢答）\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T09:57:43+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:05:54+08:00","duration":491,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.599093750000002,"end":10.290968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.493468750000002,"end":12.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.93596875,"end":14.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.30221875,"end":20.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.07409375,"end":21.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.52534375,"end":24.465968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.48284375,"end":26.980343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.63846875,"end":28.566593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.22471875,"end":32.346593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.95409375,"end":33.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.78096875,"end":36.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.32471875,"end":39.180968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.46784375,"end":41.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.67846875,"end":42.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.36596875,"end":43.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.00721875,"end":45.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.85909375,"end":48.563468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.73221875,"end":51.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.00596875,"end":56.039093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.44409375,"end":57.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.080968750000004,"end":58.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.688468750000006,"end":66.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.07534375,"end":69.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.45471875,"end":70.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.34471875,"end":71.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.64846875,"end":74.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.78284375,"end":80.65971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.18284375,"end":83.61284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.45659375000001,"end":85.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.19471875,"end":89.53596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.82284375,"end":92.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.34971875000001,"end":94.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.76721875000001,"end":95.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.62346875,"end":97.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.76659375000001,"end":100.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.33159375000001,"end":106.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.30534375,"end":108.31784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.33034375000001,"end":110.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.05159375000001,"end":111.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.97971875,"end":113.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.54471875,"end":116.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.68784375000001,"end":118.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.23596875000001,"end":119.72534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.92784375000001,"end":121.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.48034375,"end":123.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.99471875,"end":125.54721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.80034375000001,"end":128.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.00659375,"end":131.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.33096875,"end":132.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.36471875,"end":132.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.89596875,"end":136.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.97159375,"end":137.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.54096875000002,"end":141.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.73034375,"end":142.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.35471875000002,"end":143.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.49784375000002,"end":149.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.45471875,"end":151.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.97346875000002,"end":152.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.91846875000002,"end":152.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.93534375000002,"end":154.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.02784375000002,"end":156.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.61409375000002,"end":157.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.48721875,"end":160.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.69346875000002,"end":164.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.04346875000002,"end":179.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.96909375,"end":182.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.09096875,"end":184.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.99784375000002,"end":187.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.61346875,"end":188.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.41909375,"end":190.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.66784375,"end":191.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.05159375000002,"end":194.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.71784375000001,"end":195.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.65846875000003,"end":198.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.91971875000002,"end":200.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.21471875,"end":202.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.22721875000002,"end":203.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.31971875000002,"end":206.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.29409375,"end":210.15846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.46221875,"end":211.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.86284375000002,"end":214.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.49096875,"end":215.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.00971875000002,"end":219.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.55346875,"end":221.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.22409375,"end":223.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.50221875000003,"end":227.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.60721875000002,"end":228.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.44659375,"end":230.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.82596875000002,"end":234.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.23909375000002,"end":235.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.70721875,"end":236.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.12471875000003,"end":239.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.21284375000002,"end":241.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.25471875000002,"end":243.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.65096875,"end":245.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.59159375000002,"end":250.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.77659375000002,"end":251.04659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.43471875000003,"end":255.26534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.77159375000002,"end":258.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.85971875,"end":259.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.34471875,"end":261.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.43721875,"end":262.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.14596875,"end":265.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.26784375,"end":266.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.30534375,"end":272.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.87846875,"end":274.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.93721875,"end":277.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.58221875000004,"end":280.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.88159375000004,"end":281.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.48909375,"end":281.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.19784375,"end":282.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.31159375000004,"end":284.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.64471875000004,"end":287.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.56409375000004,"end":289.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.44971875000005,"end":293.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.12846875,"end":295.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.99721875,"end":297.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.95909375,"end":301.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.59971875,"end":303.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.25346875,"end":308.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.43409375000005,"end":309.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.49721875,"end":312.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.43346875000003,"end":313.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.76659375,"end":316.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.14596875,"end":319.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.44096875,"end":320.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.71909375,"end":321.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.05221875,"end":323.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.91284375000004,"end":324.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.14471875000004,"end":326.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.76471875000004,"end":327.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.40596875,"end":328.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.51971875000004,"end":331.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.91159375,"end":332.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.80596875000003,"end":333.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.46409375,"end":334.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.40471875000003,"end":337.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.98659375,"end":339.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.28159375,"end":342.27284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.67784375,"end":344.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.20909375,"end":345.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.39034375,"end":346.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.25096875,"end":347.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.76971875000004,"end":350.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.77346875,"end":353.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.84909375,"end":355.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.31721875,"end":356.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.00471875,"end":359.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.85659375,"end":360.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.42596875000004,"end":362.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.94471875000005,"end":369.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.43721875,"end":371.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.59721875,"end":375.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.78659375,"end":378.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.00971875000005,"end":380.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.32159375000003,"end":384.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.03409375,"end":387.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.56096875000003,"end":390.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.61971875,"end":391.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.96971875,"end":392.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.83034375,"end":394.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.02846875,"end":394.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.22659375,"end":395.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.69471875000005,"end":407.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.33846875,"end":433.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.51596875,"end":448.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.19284375,"end":451.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.43721875000006,"end":455.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.87596875,"end":452.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.46596875,"end":460.75221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.34284375000004,"end":463.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.32971875000004,"end":465.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.21971875,"end":469.64534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.15159375,"end":470.42159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.70846875,"end":472.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.86846875000003,"end":474.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.11284375,"end":477.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.11659375000005,"end":481.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.22159375,"end":482.62221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.14534375000005,"end":487.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.54971875,"end":489.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.51971875000004,"end":491.31284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.799,"end":14.125,"text":"主席 委員 請部長部長好部長好 這個"},{"start":22.577,"end":45.236,"text":"今天的主題 動物保育法的修法 動物保護法那從原住民的觀點又不一樣從原住民文化和狩獵來看原住民以黑熊我們就以黑熊作為為例當然各種動物又不太一樣"},{"start":46.906,"end":74.746,"text":"布農族看黑熊是友伴、同盟、尊敬、恐懼大家比較不知道以為我們原住民就是專門去狩獵的其實不是在布農族裏的黑熊不同的部落有不同的稱呼也有Dumas也有Dumas像阿美族是Dumai阿美族叫Dumai是這樣不同的一個稱呼各族群都有不同的"},{"start":76.329,"end":94.146,"text":"這個年輕的人斯巴卡他寫了一首詩黑熊是原住民生命中的一部分非常的貼切他是神話中的生命文學他被視為以人甚至比人更高一級的生命體所以這個部分這個從"},{"start":96.67,"end":117.563,"text":"原住民跟這個動物野生動物之間其實上有非常多這個一個不同的一個關係好我們看這個台灣黑熊剛才有講過了我就不再講這個它是台灣唯一原產的熊類"},{"start":120.296,"end":130.224,"text":"這個過去被列為濱林節種野生動物但是目前已經在台灣也有200到600隻算不算還算不算濱林節種部長"},{"start":135.08,"end":160.394,"text":"在還沒有解除之前應該還是瀕臨絕種那那個現在的物種統計的情況之下它逐漸可能會變動而且我們要確定它是不是瀕臨絕種不能一個時間點看要看長期的一個監測好這個之所以黑熊會被列為瀕臨絕種主要的原因了解嗎主要的原因為什麼會越來越少"},{"start":162.255,"end":186.327,"text":"以前啦 現在有比較增加了 祖先數量越來越少那越來越少他有很多種原因包括這個棲地的問題包括我想獵捕的問題可能是非常少之又少但是可能是主要是棲地不適合他的時候造成族群的一個降低 完全正確主要是棲地我們很少獵捕這個黑熊主要是棲地事實上從1932年1932年日本"},{"start":190.714,"end":219.414,"text":"探險家傑川安氏的調查報告就提到土地開發導致黑熊的棲息地喪失主要是棲息地所以土地開發才是一個最重要的我之前一直也強調這個部分絕對跟不是跟原住民的狩獵有關係好我們看最近的一個情況去年"},{"start":222.296,"end":245.585,"text":"11月濁西鄉石坪部落海拔200到500公尺的雞舍遭黑熊入侵了入侵400隻雞的雞受損了總共這個有5個養雞場受到受傷害然後今年的1月"},{"start":246.618,"end":274.491,"text":"黑熊入侵這個養蜂場吃這個蜂蜜這個相關的這個也只有海拔這個石坪部落只有海拔317公尺這個相關的這些好今年的4月最近就這個月這個月這個部落中正濁西鄉的中正部落這個黑熊"},{"start":276.827,"end":300.575,"text":"這個對我們的雞還有狗都被侵蝕所以這個部分這個相關的這些被甚至人都受到威脅了距離住家這個被拍攝到的距離住家只有50幾公尺"},{"start":302.859,"end":330.482,"text":"只有50幾公尺所以對於我們的部落對我們的住家人身安全都受到很大的影響當然這些我們養的這些雞啊狗啊或是相關的這些動物都被受到嚴重的侵害所以反而現在怎麼樣我們一直講保護保護動物啊"},{"start":332.04,"end":358.74,"text":"現在是以這個案例來講啊現在怎麼樣保護我們的部落啊怎麼樣保護我們的人怎麼樣保護我們的所養殖的這些對不對所以從另外一個觀點不一樣啊所以在討論這個野生動物保護法的時候確實有它的不同的地方"},{"start":360.112,"end":384.229,"text":"所以這個部分當然有時候就產生一些不得不防身的地方就必須產生這些問題所以這個部分你看左溪鄉的中正部落這個海拔只有170到220公尺跟早期的1000公尺以上的棲息地"},{"start":385.08,"end":407.547,"text":"已經不一樣了,所以要做不同的處理了所以這個部長,你看了之後有什麼樣的想法?我想跟委員報告,就是在濁西鄉本身的歷次的黑熊的一個入侵到部落的範圍之內不是同一隻熊,是有不同隻熊"},{"start":408.627,"end":432.323,"text":"在入侵那同樣的就是說我們也非常關注就是原民部落本身的一個安全性就是有一些黑熊雖然說我們很尊重他在部落很尊重他但是必要的這些防範也是應該的所以我們透過那個生態給付的方式跟原民部落做共同的合作希望說原民部落如果發現到"},{"start":433.664,"end":453.401,"text":"黑熊的中繼的時候能立即通報那我們就有專業的捕捉人員能夠前往去做相關的捕捉所以只有透過這樣的一個合作方式齁才能夠避免我們的原民部落受到一些這些野生動物的一個攻擊事實上通報是來不及啊有案例啊我們的鄉親確實是通報啦"},{"start":456.496,"end":475.496,"text":"你們的人員其實是很演的我們也不能怪你們的人員所以這個部分這個機制怎麼樣去因應所以我們在談動物保護法的時候條文裡面怎麼樣去農業部也要去思考怎麼樣保護人類所以這個部分保護這些"},{"start":478.171,"end":489.056,"text":"他也是動物啊 雞啊 狗啊那些也是動物啊怎麼去保護啊動物與動物之間的這個互相的侵害好不好是謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":238,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（9時57分）主席，請部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。今天的主題是動物保護法的修法，從原住民的觀點又不一樣，從原住民文化和狩獵來看，我們就以黑熊為例，當然各種動物又不太一樣。布農族看黑熊是友伴、同盟、尊敬、恐懼，大家比較不知道，以為原住民就是專門去狩獵，其實不是，在布農族語對黑熊不同的部落有不同的稱呼，有Tumaz也有Tutumaz，像阿美族叫Tomay，各族群都有不同的稱呼，年輕人邦卡兒寫了一首詩：黑熊是原住民生命中的一部分，非常的貼切，牠是神話中的生命文學，牠被視為與人甚至比人更高一級的生命體。所以原住民跟野生動物之間其實有非常多不同的關係。臺灣黑熊是臺灣唯一原產的熊類，過去被列為瀕臨絕種野生動物，但是目前在臺灣已經約有200到600隻，還算不算瀕臨絕種動物？部長。"],["陳部長駿季：在還沒有解除保育列管之前，應該還是列為瀕臨絕種動物，現在物種統計的情況之下，牠的族群可能會變動，而且我們要確定牠是不是瀕臨絕種，不能以一個時間點來看，要看長期的監測。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，之所以黑熊會被列為瀕臨絕種動物，主要的原因了解嗎？以前為什麼會越來越少？"],["陳部長駿季：牠的族群數量越來越少？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：嗯。"],["陳部長駿季：牠會越來越少有很多種原因，包括棲地的問題，我想獵捕的問題可能是少之又少，可能主要是棲地不適合牠的時候，造成族群的降低。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：完全正確，主要是棲地，我們很少獵捕黑熊。事實上從1932年日本探險家堀川安市的調查報告就提到，土地開發導致黑熊的棲息地喪失，主要是棲息地，所以土地開發才是一個最重要的原因，我之前也一直強調，這個部分絕對不是跟原住民的狩獵有關係。我們看最近的情況，去年11月卓溪鄉石平部落，海拔200到500公尺的雞舍遭黑熊入侵，400隻雞受損，總共有5個養雞場受傷害；今年1月黑熊入侵養蜂場吃蜂蜜，這個石平部落也只有海拔317公尺；今年4月，就這個月，卓溪鄉中正部落的雞還有狗被黑熊吃掉，甚至人都受到威脅。這個被拍攝到的畫面距離住家只有五十幾公尺，所以對於我們的部落、我們住家的人身安全都受到很大地影響。當然我們養的這些雞、狗或是相關的動物都受到嚴重的侵害。我們一直講保護動物，現在以這個案例來講，是要怎麼保護我們的部落、怎麼保護我們的人，怎麼樣保護我們所養殖的這些動物，對不對？所以從另外一個觀點來看是不一樣的啊！","在討論這個野生動物保護法的時候，確實有它不同的地方，對於這個部分，當然有時候就會產生一些不得不防身的地方，就是會產生這些問題。你看卓溪鄉的中正部落，海拔只有170公尺到220公尺，跟早期1,000公尺以上的棲息地已經不一樣了，所以要作不同的處理。對於這個部分，部長，你看了之後有什麼樣的想法？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，卓溪鄉本身歷次入侵到部落範圍之內的黑熊並不是同一隻熊，而是有不同隻熊在入侵，同樣的是，我們也非常關注原民部落本身的安全性，就是有一些黑熊……雖然我們很尊重牠，在部落很尊重牠，但是必要的防範也是應該的，所以我們透過生態給付的方式，跟原民部落共同合作，希望原民部落發現黑熊蹤跡的時候能立即通報，我們就會有專業的捕捉人員能夠前往進行相的捕捉。只有透過這樣的合作方式，才能避免我們的原民部落受到這些野生動物的攻擊。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：事實上通報是來不及的，有案例指出，我們的鄉親確實是通報了，你們的人員其實離得很遠，我們也不能怪你們的人員，所以這個部分的機制該怎麼去因應？我們在談動物保護法的時候，條文裡面怎麼去……農業部也要思考怎麼樣保護人類，雞、狗那些也是動物啊！這要怎麼保護啊？動物與動物之間也會互相的侵害，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們現在請呂玉玲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","洪孟楷","蘇巧慧","郭昱晴","羅廷瑋","李坤城","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","張嘉郡","葉元之","蔡易餘","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","邱議瑩","張雅琳","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員呂玉\n玲等16人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員張智倫等16人擬具「動物保\n護法第十條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員劉建國等 16 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之二條文修正草案」案；七、本\n院委員林岱樺等21人擬具「動物保護法第十四條之一、第十四條之二及第三十條條文修正草案」\n案；八、本院委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員鄭天財\nSra Kacaw 等16人擬具「動物保護法第二條及第十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員李坤城等\n22人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員廖先翔等19人擬具「動物保護法\n部分條文修正草案」案；十二、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；\n十三、本院委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十四、本院委員郭昱晴\n等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「動物保護\n法第二十五條及第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、本院委員陳亭妃等18人擬具「動物保\n護法第五條、第二十條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案；十七、本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「動\n物保護法部分條文修正草案」案；十八、本院委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正\n草案」案；十九、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「動物保護法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」案；二\n十、本院委員游顥等23人擬具「動物保護法第二十五條之一條文修正草案」案；二十一、本院委\n員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第十條條文修正草案」案；二十二、本院委員葉元之等17人擬\n具「動物保護法增訂第十四條之三條文草案」案；二十三、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保\n護法第二十五條條文修正草案」案；二十四、本院委員葉元之等17人擬具「動物保護法第二十五\n條之二條文修正草案」案；二十五、本院委員蘇巧慧等 17 人擬具「動物保護法部分條文修正草\n案」案；二十六、本院委員吳沛憶等17 人擬具「動物保護法第二十二條之四條文修正草案」案\n（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144501_00004"}}},{"id":"160761","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160761","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423694ba2c82a87492db88b6df88a6e7dffcac2100e055cb59403d354354e2f17e0785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"09:53:08 - 10:04:54","影片長度":"00:11:46","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場(廠)墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T09:53:08+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T10:04:54+08:00","duration":706,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.06784375,"end":10.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.04159375,"end":15.876593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.656593750000003,"end":19.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.26409375,"end":28.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.089718750000003,"end":31.637843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.66721875,"end":42.657218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.01159375,"end":46.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.90534375,"end":52.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.697843750000004,"end":61.118468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.50659375,"end":63.41346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.01659375,"end":65.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.54784375,"end":76.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.85471875,"end":78.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.27596875,"end":86.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.79784375,"end":91.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.57784375,"end":93.07971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.07971875000001,"end":93.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.85159375,"end":95.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.76659375000001,"end":99.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.65659375000001,"end":101.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.43284375,"end":108.48659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.70596875000001,"end":110.00534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.94221875000001,"end":116.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.63721875,"end":118.61159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.67909375,"end":137.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.84909375,"end":139.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.97534375,"end":141.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.28721875000002,"end":145.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.21909375,"end":151.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.02846875,"end":154.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.31096875,"end":158.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.51659375,"end":160.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.25471875000002,"end":165.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.62534375,"end":167.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.35471875000002,"end":173.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.11346875,"end":174.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.14284375,"end":183.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":183.63096875000002,"end":184.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.84159375000002,"end":188.27159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.67659375000002,"end":192.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.47346875000002,"end":193.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.73909375000002,"end":194.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.61659375000002,"end":195.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.92846875,"end":201.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.58596875,"end":205.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.82159375,"end":206.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.95221875000001,"end":206.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.22221875000002,"end":214.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.91721875000002,"end":215.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.08159375000002,"end":249.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.35909375000003,"end":259.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.02409375,"end":267.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":268.07346875,"end":270.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":271.76909375,"end":290.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.17534375,"end":299.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.42284375,"end":303.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":304.20284375,"end":327.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":327.49034375,"end":336.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":337.80096875000004,"end":338.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":338.52659375,"end":340.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.46721875000003,"end":341.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.34034375000005,"end":343.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":343.62284375,"end":343.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":344.39909375,"end":347.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":347.31846875,"end":353.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.32159375000003,"end":378.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":378.73971875,"end":389.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":390.55221875,"end":393.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":394.70346875,"end":395.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.34034375000005,"end":397.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":397.23471875,"end":398.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":399.96846875,"end":401.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":402.83721875000003,"end":405.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":405.97596875000005,"end":407.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":408.33846875,"end":417.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":418.49721875,"end":420.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":421.12971875000005,"end":421.93971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":423.10409375,"end":426.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":427.27221875000004,"end":430.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":430.78221875,"end":432.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":432.26721875000004,"end":433.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":433.73534375,"end":435.86159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":436.26659375,"end":438.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":439.82721875000004,"end":440.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":440.43471875,"end":441.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":441.46409375,"end":442.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":442.35846875000004,"end":444.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":445.78409375,"end":446.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":446.71221875000003,"end":447.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":448.36596875000004,"end":449.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.14221875000004,"end":449.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.61034375,"end":451.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.89284375000005,"end":453.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.42409375000005,"end":456.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.63471875000005,"end":459.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.42721875,"end":462.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":463.13159375000004,"end":464.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":464.65034375000005,"end":467.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.97471875,"end":469.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.33721875000003,"end":475.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.20971875000004,"end":476.39534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.76221875000005,"end":478.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.28096875000006,"end":485.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":485.03534375000004,"end":497.48909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":498.34971875,"end":503.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":504.39096875,"end":506.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":509.43659375000004,"end":510.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.02721875000003,"end":510.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.26721875,"end":513.5034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.1953437500001,"end":528.4040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.77534375,"end":542.2922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.0515937499999,"end":545.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.65034375,"end":547.2197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.30409375,"end":549.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":549.7509687500001,"end":550.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.83096875,"end":551.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":551.7590937500001,"end":553.8178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.20596875,"end":555.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":555.8090937500001,"end":558.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.5178437500001,"end":556.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.15909375,"end":558.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":559.36971875,"end":560.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.55534375,"end":559.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.0447187500001,"end":563.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":564.1453437499999,"end":566.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.6809687500001,"end":566.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":566.54159375,"end":566.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":566.7609687500001,"end":569.4778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":570.8447187500001,"end":571.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":573.9834687499999,"end":575.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":575.9240937500001,"end":589.6940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":590.48721875,"end":591.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":592.32659375,"end":603.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":604.6115937500001,"end":608.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":608.9484687500001,"end":610.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":610.43346875,"end":610.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":611.9015937500001,"end":615.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":615.79971875,"end":617.1497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":617.5715937500001,"end":620.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":621.5034687500001,"end":622.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":623.24159375,"end":625.7390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":626.1440937500001,"end":627.1397187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":627.8315937500001,"end":629.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":629.99159375,"end":630.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":631.42596875,"end":636.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":636.4209687499999,"end":639.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":639.96471875,"end":642.3272187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":642.6984687500001,"end":645.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":645.7865937500001,"end":646.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":647.11971875,"end":648.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":649.97159375,"end":651.5747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":651.92909375,"end":653.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":653.59971875,"end":655.6415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":656.9409687500001,"end":663.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":663.77534375,"end":666.2053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":666.4584687500001,"end":667.4540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":668.3147187500001,"end":672.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":673.27596875,"end":675.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":676.14471875,"end":677.8659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":678.33846875,"end":680.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":681.74721875,"end":682.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":683.6203437500001,"end":685.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":686.0503437500001,"end":696.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":696.4453437500001,"end":698.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":699.49971875,"end":703.1784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":701.82846875,"end":702.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":704.0390937500001,"end":705.1865937500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.113,"end":30.829,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝主席,我請部長跟職安署好,請部長跟職安署的林署長署長好,我的名字是勞動姐,所以今天排這個題目真的是很棒大家都很關心我們的勞工朋友,那我就直接切入主題"},{"start":32.948,"end":44.736,"text":"我要詢問你公使啦公使啦我們現在記者不管是文字記者不管是電子報的記者不管是攝影大家都很辛苦尤其在作業這個"},{"start":48.413,"end":63.432,"text":"Focus焦點新聞的時候,就在那邊日以繼夜啊,都要幾枚,幾枝都要排班,幾枝都要摘,一枝要喝涼的,一枝要吃燒的,但是就是在那裡等幾枚齁,請問這個工時是怎麼樣省啊?"},{"start":68.254,"end":95.528,"text":"報告委員,那有關工作時間的部分的話,它包括實際從事工作以及待命的時間,它都是屬於如果它有被受到僱主的拘束,必須要在那邊待命提供勞務的時間,也都是工作時間?僱主限制,所以那個僱主應該是電視台,或者是報社是不是?或製作公司"},{"start":98.803,"end":106.01,"text":"那演員啊 一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個一個"},{"start":118.743,"end":141.14,"text":"演員跟其他的工作人員的話可能有點差異因為演員的話他可能本身是一個自營作業的一個情況他是一個專業的人員他透過他的經紀人員跟製作單位簽訂了這樣的一個委任的相關契約所以不太一樣所以這個公使是兩方約定"},{"start":142.898,"end":157.147,"text":"兩邊約定就好了,還是用承攬企業如果出事的話,是要找誰負責像這個這麼高的地方在攝影,又塞進來那是最聽到的你們這一塊有沒有,我覺得最容易出事的就在這裡還有再來是司機"},{"start":169.963,"end":181.871,"text":"遊覽車的司機,像我這樣在動彎,在撒汗,在遊覽啦欸,那個司機,大家都什麼時候算選辦時間,什麼時候沒算選辦時間有的說叫你一台遊覽車要請兩個司機,這司機怎麼算?說手放方向盤,叫做在選辦啊,離開,沒方向盤,車輛沒抱的人,這樣就算休息啊,車輛只有一個人"},{"start":196.98,"end":204.489,"text":"就剩,就剩,就剩要上班時間,所以都把你們逛逛來,阿婆要逛到五碗,她也要逛逛來,她說你人沒有離開,我就,我就,車就熄火,我就可以離開方向盤,欸這個,這個,這個都是問題,一再的發生糾紛,這個怎麼辦?"},{"start":216.562,"end":233.043,"text":"報告委員,那有關遊覽車的這個狀況,那其實我們職安署也有訂定了一個相關遊覽車的檢查的一個專門的一個檢查的見識的方法,那屬於工作時間的部分,他可以把它見識出來。"},{"start":233.604,"end":256.019,"text":"那如果是休息時間,那也有不同的態樣有的到一個定點,那那個乘客去遊玩,那那個時間的話就會進到勞工的休息時間所以有不同的態樣,那這個相關的檢查要點其實都有去釐清因為現在國民旅遊很多啦,幾乎每天都會發生,每天就在發生每天像我從東港出發,從屏東出發,路邊就停"},{"start":260.083,"end":278.972,"text":"就聽阿婆阿拉什麼的就去,就出發啦都五六點,六七點就在集合啊在附近到沿岸九點、十點就回來我覺得那廚藝也是很辛苦的,也一個廚藝所以這個都要很注意啦,因為我們勞工大家都很辛苦"},{"start":280.171,"end":297.883,"text":"要補充,如果出事,也要負責定義,像在拍專輯的,那都是公司嘛,公司的花倒就倒,花糟就糟,金門的,這張照片要靠無法曬,像這張照片,塞在上面會發生意外。"},{"start":300.698,"end":326.71,"text":"這個都是問題啊,這一塊是最...一般大公司大行你不用擔心他啦他一定照顧你,台積電根本照顧不來台積電要點什麼幫你,你沒有跟他聊天他連你起床我也會起床,每天要講時大的公司,大的上市上柜公司或者法人公司根本不用你去擔心,最要擔心的就是這個"},{"start":328.197,"end":347.821,"text":"看不到,在腳握,他們每天,像我們記者朋友,我每次看到他們在那邊露喉啊,情緒洪漠,在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?在等什麼?"},{"start":354.8,"end":377.352,"text":"我想剛剛委員其實提醒的包括我們的演藝人員尤其是藝術表演的工作者表演工作者部分目前其實我們跟文化部那針對大家其實這些公使是不是要更進一步的規範包括植栽的部分其實我們現在跟文化部有建立跨部會的討論然後真的這部分在強化"},{"start":378.783,"end":393.633,"text":"那再來就是,我要讓你講一個,美國現在川普的,差不多,川普的就是一人泡麵,叫全世界都給他吃完我做醫生就聽,幹,他都給我們吃完,他自己也不想吃"},{"start":394.898,"end":415.692,"text":"一直都吃漢堡 喝可樂 啊我們都吃牛肉我們還笑著 還笑著叫MASKMASK 啊MASK 說要提升多少錢 說要提升五千個美金結果還是裁員 還要裁27萬個聯邦的員工啊真的裁了十萬人喔 結果呢"},{"start":423.154,"end":437.88,"text":"他可以省一千五百億美金就像現在BBC啊什麼就出來K他說這人要把他遣散 要把他離職 要把他休退開一千三百多個美金現在那天開沒人做 現在還在找新的員工一百五年 這有效嗎 這要吃了有效嗎"},{"start":452.15,"end":475.289,"text":"你是醫生喔我不太適合去評論其他國家的政治人物這樣的問題像這種這樣大量解雇大量這樣我們有可能做這種事情當然你在台灣的政治跟行政的環境我們確實不太可能做這樣的事情所以no comment"},{"start":479.332,"end":504.621,"text":"我們不太方便評論其他國家的總統或政治人物好,那最後一個問題,這個災保法災保法,災害保護法這變成法外的孤兒了那這個是RCA的問題,現在尾巴還沒有收這個我在第八屆的時候就有受人處理了,現在處理到最後是怎麼樣很多這種"},{"start":509.471,"end":510.196,"text":"有沒有,現在到"},{"start":514.609,"end":541.397,"text":"謝委員 我們長期跟法服基金會有協助他們訴訟有提供律師費 那他們要去抵押扣押財產需要擔保 我們勞動部也出去可以擔保一億的證明後續都是由律師團跟他們的自救會一起在訴訟當中有第一批的人已經贏了 後面還有第二批的人還在繼續訴訟"},{"start":543.226,"end":563.088,"text":"所以大部分都解決了?他們有分好幾批,現在主要是要扣他的財產扣誰的財產?阿溪的阿溪還有這間公司嗎?在國外的財產你可以去扣國外財產?他們在找你怎麼又請人去外國扣?有自修會他們在找"},{"start":564.209,"end":589.238,"text":"到國外打官司很貴捏請一個律師要七八百萬台幣捏一兩千萬都有捏所以有在追蹤嗎我想這個案子我們有在做後續的因為這種這個是好久了捏所以這個要諸如此類的勞動部要我一直在講就是說這個看弱勢的家"},{"start":593.21,"end":597.256,"text":"這要時間派空姐,這要五六天就是你要照顧的不然你如果做得好,你就是好的不然啦那老闆說什麼,那你不用管啦"},{"start":604.659,"end":626.377,"text":"那些小小的小小的,這樣甩就甩了,他們就很認真這樣啦跟便衣一樣嘛對不對最重要就是偏遠地區的醫療你要提升嘛你從那個牡丹鄉現在要打那個人造衛星的地方那個地方蓄海有一個病人生病要到恆春到東港96分鐘到不了"},{"start":630.06,"end":654.08,"text":"在台北市六分鐘可以做檢驗就到你想要的適當的醫療院所然後台北市的人他每一年的醫療費用我們是九千多億嘛平均兩千三百萬人一個人要四萬塊一個人頭上就capitation就四萬塊在屏東在牡丹他們才要花兩萬幾塊而已他們台北市的人都花六萬幾塊這樣才有辦法"},{"start":658.797,"end":677.322,"text":"你做接種這裡就是要把那裡照顧,那裡如果有平權,你就成功啦,其他都不一樣,都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣都會這樣"},{"start":683.649,"end":691.715,"text":"反正站著又叫我拔白包反正站著沒人處理綜藝叫我丟到外面我常常做這種事情所以是不一樣的樣態所以每天這樣來來回回我的感觸都很深所以柏定你也算機長站著要照顧自己好不好謝謝委員的建議跟提醒謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":310,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（9時53分）謝謝主席。我請部長跟職安署。"],["主席：請部長跟職安署林署長。"],["洪部長申翰：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，明天是勞動節，所以今天排這個題目真的是很棒，大家都很關心我們的勞工朋友，我就直接切入主題。我要詢問你工時，現在的記者，不管是文字記者，不管是電子報的記者，不管是攝影，大家都很辛苦，尤其在追focus焦點新聞的時候，都在那邊日以繼夜，整夜整日都在排班，整夜整日都在那邊坐，一下喝飲料、一下吃熱食，但是就是在那邊一直等，整夜的。請問這個工時是要怎麼算？部長。"],["黃司長維琛：報告委員，有關工作時間的部分，它包括實際從事工作以及待命的時間，它都是屬於工作時間，受拘束的話都算。"],["蘇委員清泉：他就坐在攝影機前面，坐在那邊，這樣有算時間嗎？"],["黃司長維琛：如果他有受到雇主的拘束，必須要在那邊待命提供勞務的時間，也都是工作時間。"],["蘇委員清泉：雇主限制？所以那個雇主應該是電視臺或者是報社，是不是？"],["洪部長申翰：或製作公司。"],["蘇委員清泉：或製作公司？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：那麼演員呢？演員拍一個短劇或拍一個什麼，那是一集、一集，還是傳播公司聘請他們的？"],["黃司長維琛：演員的部分……"],["蘇委員清泉：演員弄一整夜，跳來跳去，本人、助理、攝影、跑龍套的，都是這樣沒日沒夜工作，他們的工時怎麼算？"],["黃司長維琛：演員跟其他工作人員可能有一點差異，因為演員本身可能是自營作業的情況，他是一個專業人員，透過經紀人員跟製作單位簽訂一個委任的相關契約，所以不太一樣。"],["蘇委員清泉：你是說工時是兩方約定就好了，還是用承攬契約？如果出事的話，要找誰負責？"],["黃司長維琛：這個部分，演員通常會……"],["蘇委員清泉：像在這麼高的地方攝影摔下來，那是時常聽到的情況，我覺得最容易出事的就在這裡。再來還有司機的部分，像遊覽車司機，動員或是遊覽等等都需要，那司機什麼時候算上班時間、什麼時候不算上班時間？有的時候要求一輛遊覽車要請兩個司機，司機的部分到底要怎麼算？是手放在方向盤叫做上班，如果離開沒有摸方向盤、車上沒半個人，這樣就算休息？如果車上有坐一個人，就算是上班時間，所以都會把大家趕下車，即使阿婆頭暈不想下來，他也會把她趕下來，因為如果不離開，他就沒辦法熄火離開方向盤，這都是問題欸！一再的發生糾紛，這個怎麼辦？"],["黃司長維琛：報告委員，有關遊覽車的狀況，其實我們職安署有訂定一個遊覽車相關的檢查也是一個專門鑑識的方法，屬於工作時間的部分可以把它鑑識出來，至於休息時間，因為有不同的態樣，有的是到一個定點，乘客去遊玩，那個時間就會進到勞工的休息時間，所以有不同的態樣，相關檢查要點其實都有釐清。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在國民旅遊很多，這個幾乎每天都在發生，像我從東港、屏東出來，路邊就會停遊覽車，等一些阿婆上車就出發了，他們都是五六點、六七點就集合出發，一直弄到晚上9點、10點才回來，我覺得司機很辛苦，也是只有一個司機，所以這個都要很注意，因為勞工都很辛苦，你要給他們保障，如果出事了誰要負責？像那些拍攝專輯的都是公司，公司喊倒就倒、喊跑就跑，這種到最後都是「欲哭無眼淚」，像攝影的如果摔下去發生意外，這都是問題啊！一般大公司、大行號不用擔心，它一定都照規定做，像台積電哪會不照規定？台積電要吊模板，繩索不套牢一點，可能連讓你上去都不會讓你上去，每天都要講習，大的公司、大的上市、上櫃公司，或者是法人公司，根本不用擔心，最要擔心的就是這個在角落看不到的地方，像我們的記者朋友，每次看他們下雨天穿著雨衣在那邊等，要等什麼？就是catch、play而已嘛！對不對？這個都很重要，部長，你是勞工出身，對於這一塊要很注意，非常重要，我覺得勞動節要注意的就是這一塊而已啦！"],["洪部長申翰：是，剛剛委員提醒的，包括演藝人員，尤其是藝術表演工作者部分，目前我們跟文化部針對大家的工時是不是要更進一步規範，包括職災部分，我們跟文化部都有建立跨部會討論，針對這部分再予以強化。"],["蘇委員清泉：再來，美國現在差不多就是川普一個人生病，卻叫全世界跟著吃藥；我當醫生的立場，覺得他都是叫我們吃藥，但他自己並不想吃，他每天吃漢堡、喝可樂，但我們要吃藥，就好像瘋子一樣。還有一個更瘋的叫馬斯克，馬斯克說要替他省5,000億美金，結果就一直裁員，說要裁27萬個聯邦員工，現在真的裁了10萬人喔！結果呢？他可以省1,500億美金，但現在BBC什麼的都出來K他，因為要遣散這些人，要他們離職、給他們優退，要花一千三百多億美金，現在這些工作沒人做，還要招新的員工進來，這樣有瘋嗎？這要吃藥嗎？部長，你的看法如何？"],["洪部長申翰：委員你是醫生，我不太適合評論其他國家政治人物的問題。"],["蘇委員清泉：像這種大量解僱的情形，我們有可能去做這種事情嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然在臺灣的政治跟行政環境，我們確實不太可能做這樣的事情。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以no comment？"],["洪部長申翰：我們不太方便評論其他國家的總統或政治人物。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，最後一個問題問你災保法、災害保護法，RCA問題現在變成法外孤兒了，還有尾巴沒有收，這個我們在第8屆的時候就有處理，現在處理到最後是怎麼樣？現在到什麼情況？"],["王司長厚偉：謝謝委員，我們長期都有跟法扶基金會協助他們訴訟、提供律師費，他們要去扣押財產需要擔保，勞動部也出具可以擔保1億的擔保證明，後續都是由律師團跟他們自救會一起在訴訟當中，第一批的人已經贏了，後面第二批的人還在繼續訴訟。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以大部分都解決了？"],["王司長厚偉：他們有分好幾批，現在主要是要扣它的財產。"],["蘇委員清泉：扣誰的財產？"],["王司長厚偉：RCA。"],["蘇委員清泉：還有RCA這間公司嗎？"],["王司長厚偉：在國外的財產。"],["蘇委員清泉：可以去扣國外財產？"],["王司長厚偉：他們在找。"],["蘇委員清泉：那不是要再請人去外國訴訟？"],["王司長厚偉：自救會他們在找。"],["蘇委員清泉：到國外打官司很貴！請一個律師要七、八百萬臺幣，一、兩千萬都有，所以有在追蹤嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：這個案子我們有在做後續的……"],["蘇委員清泉：因為這個已經很久了，諸如此類的，就像我一再講的，這些比較弱勢的、工時比較難控制的勞工，你要去照顧他們，部長，這個如果做得好，你就是好的部長，至於那些大公司，你不必管啦！那些只要拿支拂塵掃一掃，他們就很認真了！這跟醫院一樣嘛，對不對？最重要就是偏遠地區的醫療要提升，像現在牡丹鄉要建置人造衛星發射場的旭海，病人生病到恆春、東港，96分鐘還到不了，在臺北市，6分鐘坐捷運就可以到你想要的、適當的醫療院所；我們的醫療經費是九千多億，兩千三百萬人，平均一個人要四萬塊，一個人頭上的capitation就四萬塊，在屏東牡丹，他們差不多花兩萬多塊而已，而臺北市一個人花六萬多元，這樣公平嗎？執政者本來就要照顧那些人，把他們拉上來，這些人如果有平權，那你就成功啦！都會區每間醫院都蓋得漂漂亮亮，哪需要你們管理？都會區的人經濟強又有保險，什麼都有，來都要用最好的；那邊的病人來，都是有健保就儘量用健保，患者去世了，還要我包「白包」；或是患者去世沒有人處理葬禮，也叫我幫忙，我常常要做這種事情，所以這是不一樣的樣態，每天這樣來來回回，我感觸很深啦！部長，你也算基層起來的，要照顧這一塊，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝委員的建議跟提醒，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員醫療專業的發言，謝謝部長的答詢。","下一位請邱鎮軍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":358,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、經濟部及內政部就「五一勞動節前夕，我國勞工職場預防職業災害及場（廠）\n墜落事故之檢討與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00006"}}},{"id":"160760","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160760","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b6da7da99b9423699423a6a998c692670ca66b6f3bc7c703c2100e055cb59403e27a470d39c62d065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:44:25 - 09:59:12","影片長度":"00:14:47","會議時間":"2025-04-30T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-04-30","start_time":"2025-04-30T09:44:25+08:00","end_time":"2025-04-30T09:59:12+08:00","duration":887,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":1.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.14471875,"end":1.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.852218750000002,"end":14.070968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.543468750000002,"end":15.825968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.37409375,"end":19.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.57221875,"end":109.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.56221875000001,"end":112.28346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.35096875,"end":131.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.26784375,"end":160.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.18284375000002,"end":165.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.72659375,"end":169.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.84409375,"end":169.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.05909375000002,"end":175.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.51409375,"end":175.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.86846875,"end":176.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.97784375,"end":178.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.92284375,"end":186.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.97221875000002,"end":187.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.52909375000002,"end":230.00346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.45909375000002,"end":230.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.71221875,"end":244.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.00596875000002,"end":242.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.99284375000002,"end":248.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.48159375,"end":259.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.37909375000004,"end":258.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.82596875,"end":263.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.04034375000003,"end":267.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.49971875,"end":270.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.04346875000005,"end":276.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.43159375,"end":273.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.95846875,"end":275.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.64596875,"end":277.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.43909375000004,"end":279.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.28284375000004,"end":278.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.24471875,"end":289.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.36596875000004,"end":286.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.79596875000004,"end":290.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.12909375000004,"end":290.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.28096875,"end":296.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.08221875000004,"end":300.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.06409375000004,"end":303.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.52784375000005,"end":304.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.59534375000004,"end":303.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.60346875000005,"end":307.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.24034375,"end":309.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.11784375,"end":308.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.78846875,"end":310.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.62784375,"end":314.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.12096875000003,"end":315.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.91409375,"end":316.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.30221875,"end":316.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.53409375,"end":327.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.91284375000004,"end":324.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.27971875000003,"end":325.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.60846875000004,"end":409.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.98784375,"end":414.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.04221875,"end":415.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.30346875000004,"end":416.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.82659375000003,"end":479.28096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.17534375,"end":487.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.62659375000004,"end":481.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.32221875000005,"end":485.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.24596875000003,"end":523.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.4428437500001,"end":580.8178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.8303437500001,"end":598.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.4822187500001,"end":595.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.51159375,"end":596.7309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.7265937500001,"end":624.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.04721875,"end":630.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.3078437500001,"end":634.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.42596875,"end":631.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.36221875,"end":635.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.1553437499999,"end":639.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.2390937499999,"end":667.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.2847187500001,"end":645.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":665.17596875,"end":665.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":665.9184687500001,"end":668.8547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.1922187499999,"end":675.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.50721875,"end":679.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.3972187500001,"end":692.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.91034375,"end":691.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.1084687500002,"end":706.8234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.2053437500001,"end":693.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":707.02596875,"end":707.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":707.8528437500001,"end":708.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":709.43909375,"end":714.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":714.34971875,"end":759.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":759.91221875,"end":774.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":773.83409375,"end":779.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":778.62659375,"end":778.9809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":779.06534375,"end":784.4990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":784.11096875,"end":784.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":784.66784375,"end":784.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":784.68471875,"end":784.7859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":784.7859687499999,"end":784.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":784.81971875,"end":813.3047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":784.8872187500001,"end":784.9209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":812.07284375,"end":815.6672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":815.19471875,"end":815.5828437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":815.6672187500001,"end":815.7009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":816.46034375,"end":822.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":822.95721875,"end":846.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":846.83534375,"end":871.7765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":871.75971875,"end":877.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":878.1215937500001,"end":879.1340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":880.70346875,"end":883.36971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.029,"end":0.93,"text":"謝謝代理主席有請故宮蕭中皇院長有請蕭院長蕭院長"},{"start":19.585,"end":31.71,"text":"好謝謝院長我想也是謝謝我們召委來特地代理主席也像昨天我在這個院會裡頭質詢我們的總統臺院長說大臺灣要這個大成功也要大合作我想這樣是一個很好的一個例子那我想今天院長想跟您請教這個西班牙和葡萄牙在4月28號中午爆發了大規模的停電導致交通燈"},{"start":48.516,"end":62.934,"text":"全數熄滅道路和機場可以說是一片混亂甚至有部分醫院也被迫暫停作業博物館等等的文教措施也可以說是難以倖免直到晚間兩國主要的城市才逐步復電"},{"start":63.655,"end":81.184,"text":"但要完全附電需要一週的時間本席上網查了一下位於西班牙馬德里的普拉多博物館從中午開始停電一直到晚上將近11點才恢復停電歷經了將近11小時在停電的期間除了暫停開放並疏散遊客以外"},{"start":81.704,"end":109.317,"text":"最重要的就是如何在停電的情況之下還要能夠維持文物的安全恆溫恆濕等等想請教一下院長院長這邊有沒有關注到核三廠二號機運轉到5月17號即將停機如果這個真的停機的話對於台灣將面臨第一個沒有核電的夏天很多專家學者都對於供電的穩定表示不太樂觀請問故宮有沒有針對停電的緊急應變處理做過演練"},{"start":111.073,"end":130.974,"text":"故宮有針對停電的情形做過研認而且事實上我們在去年的話也因為台北市那個工務局新工處他們施工的時候就挖斷電纜故宮突然停電了所以我們也經歷了一個突發緊急的一個事件的處理"},{"start":131.935,"end":159.77,"text":"挖斷電纜是一個因但是實際上停電就是果故宮還是要為這個果負責也要做好準備當時您提到這個事件歷經這個一分鐘立即啟動供電整起事件大概20分鐘落幕那根據故宮的回應是依據國立故宮博物院災害緊急應變作業要點來啟動這個所謂的緊急應變那這裡想要請教一下院長這個相關的作業要點當中有沒有關於停電事件的緊急應變程序"},{"start":162.88,"end":175.134,"text":"呃 要點裡面緊急這個叫要點應該就是很重要嘛這個院長是不是應該你自己也要清楚喔有沒有跟停電有關 停電事件有關的呃"},{"start":178.301,"end":199.299,"text":"因為我講說我入維護所冊裡面的話有沒有規定到那麼細我不曉得但是工作所則的話同仁這邊都有應變作業要點裡面有沒有停電事件沒關係我就幫你回答啦事實上我們幫院長仔細檢視了一下緊急應變作業要點當中發現只有提到電器受損"},{"start":200.1,"end":226.578,"text":"需緊急疏散遊客整部緊急應變呢只針對風災水災正災天然災害水火災爆裂物疫情傳染等等的人為災害那當中的並沒有提到萬一發生停電的事件的時候要來如何保存文物那請教一下院長故宮的備用電源最長可以供電多久時間備用電源的涵蓋範圍有沒有包含文物庫房文物庫房的保全和監視系統"},{"start":231.502,"end":241.774,"text":"基本上來講的話它的備用電源的話有包括那個展場跟那個庫房這個部分是有但是供電多長時間供電多長時間這個我就不會"},{"start":248.882,"end":262.79,"text":"因為我們如果轉換才有供電的話基本上是沒有問題可以持續供電就我們自用發電啦但是才有存量的問題吧那存量回答一下能運作多久啊備多久啊"},{"start":264.079,"end":272.206,"text":"存量22小時然後我們會補充備援全管嗎包含恆溫恆濕保全庫房整個院區包含庫房22小時對好這個多久檢查一次"},{"start":279.372,"end":308.678,"text":"因為我們現在樓下我們那個樓下還有一個加油站所以要調油的話可能也比較方便這個部分每個月檢查這個部分我回去我會請我們確認一下喔因為這個要22小時的供電我是不知道那個柴油要放多少而且院區這麼大喔需要多少量有具體數據嗎3000多公升3000多公升存放在哪裡"},{"start":309.841,"end":327.161,"text":"地下跟跟文物存在一起啊不會吧安全的地方戶外那個那個法委員這個我回去以後我會召開一個專案會議我把這些事情都弄清楚謝謝我想這個這個必要的規定都都把它補全"},{"start":327.642,"end":344.191,"text":"故宮安全很重要因為我們文物都在裡面我也看我們上次有去庫房這個保全和監視系統停電的狀態也要確定是可以運作的不然的話我們這個狀態我們看到有人如果不小心在裡面可能都不一定知道能不能出來"},{"start":345.071,"end":364.1,"text":"那再來呢我想除了避免因為突發的事件影響到文物安全其實我們也希望能夠落實庫房管理啦這也是上一次我們去訪查希望能夠了解的地方避免文物受到損害甚至有遭竊的風險當然我們理解故宮的管理是完善的但是2023年大英博物館就曾經發生過失竊的事件"},{"start":366.101,"end":389.034,"text":"估計高達2000件的文物遭竊 而且後來才發現那這個時任館長呢 也宣布辭職 也是負責那今年1月的時候 荷蘭的德倫特博物館也發生了這個竊盜事件其中有包括一頂 擁有2500年歷史的黃金頭盔遭竊那故宮南院的庫房呢 曾經也發生管理的疏失啦"},{"start":390.235,"end":409.31,"text":"這個有相關的人員啊這個沒有在名單裡面進去等等那因此兩週前我們就特地去了解一個狀況尤其是到故宮南院這裡當時院長也全程參與請教一下院長你的這個專業這個相關的作業流程你給故宮南院的這個庫房管理文物移動的表演作業程序你打幾分啊呃及格吧勉強勉強及格60分"},{"start":417.241,"end":435.118,"text":"我想其实我们当时在看南越已经运作很长的时间了我们觉得这样子的一个做法老实说真的是有非常非常大的加强空间那南越的管理流程是人员造册制作通行词卡核对身份证件换证领卡"},{"start":435.618,"end":452.176,"text":"那我先講第一個令人覺得吃驚的是假設故宮南院和北院是用同樣的門禁系統全院加起來70萬件國寶每件5000萬來算的話大概35兆台幣的這樣的價值甚至我想裡面有很多無價之寶更不用講結果進出庫房的門禁"},{"start":454.258,"end":474.386,"text":"我們不是用這個所謂的紅膜掃描臉部辨識甚至沒有指紋更不用說相關的這些先進的技術竟然是用一張十塊錢就可以買到的腹瀉感應卡來進出管制這張腹瀉卡其實很容易遺失甚至有可能被撿走甚至被複製請教一下院長我們故宮的庫房門禁幾乎就跟我們"},{"start":480.333,"end":496.027,"text":"社區大廈的管理方式是一樣這難道就是故宮對於國保重視的程度嗎不值得用高科技來防護嗎跟委員報告高科技當然是可以可是大家拿的那個卡我北苑的卡在南苑不能用南苑的卡北苑不能用"},{"start":496.647,"end":522.884,"text":"委員的卡那個是臨時卡但是真正拿卡是進不了的一定要兩位專業人員用那個指紋用紅膜去掃門才會開所以關鍵是那兩個同仁那個靜脈掃描不是因為那個卡就可以進得去那個卡只是去對照那個進庫房的人數真正要進入到庫房的話那個還是要有掃描才可以進去"},{"start":523.504,"end":543.916,"text":"那現在問題就來了,事實上院長您的回應剛好符合我待會要提的這個問題當天參觀的人員呢,你們說進行照冊嘛,其實就是這兩個這個管理的這個案指紋的人他覺得可以,這些人就可以進去事實上當時陰錯陽差啦,有某一個辦公室的同仁呢,有一個姓名是寫錯的"},{"start":545.117,"end":568.217,"text":"造成同音不同字的情況其實故宮全程沒有發現一樣讓他進入庫房等於是繼上次帶班清潔人進入庫房打掃之後又再一次出現同樣的問題不是說這個管理門禁的人有壓指紋就沒問題了其實也不是這樣子的相關的身份的如何驗證查核人臉有沒有辦法預先辨識訓練"},{"start":569.918,"end":596.566,"text":"其實有非常多新的方法可以來做我覺得那個RFID卡你說那等於說我們35兆的文物就仰賴這兩個人按指紋嗎院長你覺得這樣合理嗎當然更新的科技導入包括那個人臉辨識或是紅膜辨識基本上來講的話都是未來可行的可是以現在來講的話可能還是要需要一筆經費然後去做一個訓練是"},{"start":598.467,"end":622.314,"text":"我想這個院長我希望你們可以提出報告做檢討改善當時我們都看到了其實那邊數人頭數了老半天其實對管理人員來講也很困擾而且這個準確率我覺得會有一些狀況那現在正值故宮115年預算擬編概算的一個現狀也世界上發生多起文物遭竊的案件我們不管是因為地緣政治還是經濟的一個狀態我們希望"},{"start":625.168,"end":644.319,"text":"院方能不能向行政院積極爭取預算加強故宮庫房的防盜措施啊有沒有在這樣子規劃現在在你編嘛這個當然可以啦你不要現在在這裡講結果實際上編出來我們又看到又沒有可是跟委員報告喔跟委員報告喔如果那天的情況的話我這樣講用一個實務來講你就說60分啊我要"},{"start":646.34,"end":674.83,"text":"不是我要掃描這些委員這些助理的話基本上來講我不能拿他的身份證來掃描因為這個又不是護照所以他還是有他實際上的執行上的一個考量的工作要來處理並不是說我設了以後然後就是每個人進去就掃一下因為他是要院長你沒有直接回答我的問題我覺得不要繞你整個70萬件的國寶仰賴在這兩個人按指紋跟他肉眼比對你覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":680.494,"end":705.927,"text":"基本上來講的話一般正常的話就是入庫的人員都是我們自己的管員跟專案的包裝運輸公司不會突然有一大批這樣的一個人我想不要再逃避這個問題您自己也打60分之前就是有出現過沒有在名單裡面的人進去這次訪查陰錯陽差我們發現這樣的狀況還是有可能發生希望能編列相關的預算來解決同時要檢討報告"},{"start":707.898,"end":727.218,"text":"可不可以好這個部分的話我們當然很希望可以爭取更多的監會來精進庫房的管理好最後一個議題那我想這個也謝謝昭偉我再接一點時間這個我想最後來談一下故宮的定位今年這個消息出來其實大家都很心碎尤其是故宮的支持者"},{"start":728.68,"end":745.782,"text":"說參觀人數高達300萬人的第一名不是故宮博物院那剛剛那個人士很多人都提過了那今年是故宮百年的願慶其實大家都很希望看到更好的結果那我們其實有看到今年2月3月的參觀人是跟去年同期相比"},{"start":746.443,"end":772.808,"text":"不僅今年是百年喔不僅沒有增加反倒更加的減少請問你有沒有了解一下不增反減的原因還是說這其實就是你的KPI啊就是希望它越來越少難道是這樣嗎不是吧報告委員不是齁因為北院減少南院增加齁北院減少的話就是因為大美部委員剛剛講過一個人流過去對對北院也增加齁現在增加了啦就是"},{"start":773.388,"end":795.864,"text":"就是因為四月增加了我們四月還沒過完啊二三月就是減少啊數字都放在這裡啊北院啊但是現在的話現在的話加總的話都已經都已經上來了南院增加了更多沒關係啦我想這個長期的下降剛剛都說了以前有五六百萬人一年當然扣除掉觀光人士其實我們的本地觀光客也還是下降我們剛剛都看到數字其實我們有點懷疑這是跟故宮南院其實有明確的亞洲博物館的定位"},{"start":801.528,"end":815.433,"text":"故宮北院常年陷入定位不明甚至有點尷尬的狀態請問一下這個院長故宮北院的定位我們到底是不是能夠很明確的定位這個其實我們看了一下故宮北院它的定位一直都很清楚是什麼"},{"start":816.519,"end":842.389,"text":"就是一個華夏文物館 華夏博物館就是以典藏中華文物為主的一個博物館很好所以事實上你們的官網上也講了這個China's National Culture華夏的文物所以我想我希望給院長一個機會請院長大聲疾呼我們現在都有錄影直播是不是能夠幫我們喊一下歡迎世界各國的人一起來看"},{"start":843.349,"end":871.452,"text":"這個可不可以把我們最後一句話讓給你好不好就是我們幫你寫好了當然歡迎全世界各地各國的博物館到故宮來欣賞中華文物華夏文物的典藏那另外的話我們最近也跟那個教育部所屬的一個華語文教學的一個基金會合作我們希望把台灣有做華語文教育的70幾個學校通通變成是故宮的一個夥伴關係把故宮當作他們的教室"},{"start":871.912,"end":878.937,"text":"我想故宮是最沒有意識形態的地方啦希望大家一起來欣賞我們的華夏文武 好不好OK大家一起努力 謝謝好 謝謝葛如君 張偉 院長請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":189,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時44分）謝謝代理主席，有請故宮蕭宗煌院長。"],["主席：有請蕭院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：召委早。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝院長，我也謝謝我們召委特地來代理主席，像我昨天在院會裡質詢我們的卓榮泰院長說，大臺灣要大成功，也要大合作，我想這是一個很好的例子。我今天想跟院長請教，西班牙和葡萄牙在4月28號中午爆發了大規模的停電，導致交通號誌全數熄滅，道路和機場一片混亂，甚至有部分醫院也被迫暫停作業，博物館等等的文教設施也難以倖免，直到晚間兩國主要的城市才逐步復電，但要完全復電需要一週的時間。本席上網查了一下，位於西班牙馬德里的普拉多博物館從中午開始停電，一直到晚上將近11點才復電，歷經了將近11小時，在停電的期間，除了暫停開放並疏散遊客以外，最重要的就是如何在停電的情況之下，還要能夠維持文物的安全、恆溫、恆溼等等。想請教一下院長，院長有沒有關注到核三廠二號機運轉到5月17號即將停機？如果真的停機，臺灣將面臨第一個沒有核電的夏天，很多專家學者都對於供電的穩定表示不太樂觀，請問故宮有沒有針對停電的緊急應變做過演練？"],["蕭院長宗煌：故宮有針對停電的情形做過演練，事實上我們在去年，也因為臺北市工務局新工處，他們在施工的時候挖斷電纜讓故宮突然停電，所以我們也經歷了一個突發緊急事件的處理。"],["葛委員如鈞：好。挖斷電纜是一個因，但實際上停電就是果，故宮還是要為這個果負責，也要做好準備。您提到這個事件，當時歷經1分鐘立即啟動供電，整起事件大概20分鐘落幕，而根據故宮的回應，是依據國立故宮博物院災害緊急應變作業要點來啟動所謂的緊急應變。這裡想要請教一下院長，相關的作業要點當中，有沒有關於停電事件的緊急應變程序？"],["蕭院長宗煌：要點裡面緊急……"],["葛委員如鈞：這個叫「要點」應該就是很重要嘛，院長是不是……應該你自己也要清楚啊！有沒有跟停電事件有關的？不確定？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我這樣說，文物維護手冊裡面有沒有規定到那麼細，我不曉得，但是工作守則同仁那邊都有，所以我們……"],["葛委員如鈞：應變作業要點裡面有沒有停電事件？沒關係，我就幫你回答啦！事實上，我們幫院長仔細檢視了一下緊急應變作業要點，發現只有提到電器受損需緊急疏散遊客，整部緊急應變作業要點只針對風災、水災、震災等天然災害；及火災、爆裂物、疫病情傳染等人為災害，當中並沒有提到萬一發生停電的事件的時候要如何來保存文物。請教一下院長，故宮的備用電源最長可以供電多久時間？備用電源的涵蓋範圍有沒有包含文物庫房？文物庫房的保全和監視系統能不能在停電的狀態之下正常運作？請回復。"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上來講，備用電源有包括展場跟庫房，這個部分是有，但是……"],["葛委員如鈞：供電多長時間？"],["蕭院長宗煌：供電多長時間這個我就不知……因為我們如果轉換柴油供電的話，基本上是沒有問題，可以持續供電，就是我們自用發電，但是柴油存量多少我不曉得。"],["葛委員如鈞：總有存量的問題吧？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，對，對，所以這個部分我……"],["葛委員如鈞：回答一下存量能運作多久，備了多少？"],["蕭院長宗煌：存量22小時，然後我們會補充備援。"],["葛委員如鈞：全館嗎？包含恆溫、恆濕、保全、庫房整個院區？"],["蕭院長宗煌：庫房和展場。"],["葛委員如鈞：包含庫房？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["葛委員如鈞：22小時？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，多久檢查一次？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為我們現在樓下還有一個加油站，所以要調油可能也比較方便，這個部分每個月會檢查一次。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，院長有信心啦？"],["蕭院長宗煌：這個部分，回去我會請我們的……"],["葛委員如鈞：要確認一下喔！"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，請我們整個……"],["葛委員如鈞：因為要22小時的供電，我是不知道柴油要放多少，而且院區這麼大喔，需要多少量，有具體數據嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：三千多公升。"],["葛委員如鈞：三千多公升存放在哪裡？"],["蕭院長宗煌：地下……"],["葛委員如鈞：跟文物存在一起啊？不會吧？安全的地方？"],["蕭院長宗煌：報告委員，我回去以後會召開一個專案會議，把這些事情都弄清楚，然後把必要的規定都把它補全。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝，故宮的安全很重要啦！因為文物都在裡面。我們上次有去庫房，保全和監視系統在停電的狀態下也要確定是可以運作的，不然在這種狀態，如果有人不小心在裡面，可能都不一定知道能不能出得來。","再來，除了避免因為突發事件影響到文物安全，我們也希望能夠落實庫房管理，這也是上一次我們去訪查，希望能夠了解的地方，避免文物受到損害，甚至有遭竊的風險。當然，我們理解故宮的管理是完善，但在2023年大英博物館就曾經發生過失竊的事件，估計高達2,000件的文物遭竊，而且後來才發現，時任館長也宣布辭職以示負責；在今年1月的時候，荷蘭的德倫特博物館也發生了竊盜事件，其中有包括一頂擁有2,500年歷史的黃金頭盔遭竊；而故宮南院的庫房也曾經發生管理的疏失，像是沒有在名單裡的人員闖入等等。因此，在兩週前，我們就特地去了解狀況，尤其是到故宮南院，當時院長也全程參與，請教一下院長，以您的專業，您給故宮南院庫房管理文物移動的標準作業程序打幾分？"],["蕭院長宗煌：勉強及格吧！"],["葛委員如鈞：勉強及格，60分。好，其實南院已經運作很長的時間了，我們覺得這樣的一個作法，老實說真的是有非常非常大的加強空間，南院的管理流程是人員造冊、製作通行磁卡、核對身分證件及換證領卡，我覺得第一個令人吃驚的是，假設故宮南院和北院是用同樣的門禁系統，全院加起來70萬件國寶，每件以5,000萬來計算的話，大概有35兆臺幣的價值，甚至裡面有很多無價之寶，更不用講，結果進出庫房的門禁，我們不是用所謂的「虹膜辨識」及「臉部辨識」，甚至沒有指紋，更不用說相關的先進的技術，竟然是用一張十塊錢就可以買到的複寫感應卡作為進出管制，這張覆寫卡其實很容易遺失，甚至有可能被撿走，甚至被複製，院長請教一下，我們故宮的庫房門禁幾乎就跟我們社區大廈的管理方式一樣，這難道就是故宮對於國寶重視的程度嗎？不值得用高科技系統來防護嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，高科技當然是可以，可是大家所拿的那個卡，北院的卡在南院不能用，南院的卡在北院不能用，委員拿的卡是臨時卡，但是真正拿卡是進不了的，一定要有兩位專業人員用指紋及虹膜辨識，門才會開，所以關鍵是那兩位同仁要用靜脈掃描，不是拿那個卡就可以進得去，那個卡只是對照進入庫房的人數，真正要進入到庫房的話，還是要有掃描辨識才可以進去。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，現在問題就來了，事實上，您的回應剛好符合我待會要提的問題，當天參觀的人員，你們說進行造冊，其實就是這兩位按壓指紋的管理人員，他覺得可以，這些人就可以進去。事實上，當時陰錯陽差，有某一位辦公室同仁的姓名是寫錯的，造成同音不同字的情況，故宮全程沒有發現，一樣讓他進入庫房，等於是繼上次代班清潔人員進入庫房打掃後，又再一次出現同樣的問題，不是說管理門禁的人有壓指紋就沒問題了，也不是這樣子的。如何驗證查核相關人員的身分？人臉有沒有辦法預先辨識及訓練？其實有非常多新的方法可以做。我覺得一個RFID卡，等於我們那35兆的文物，就仰賴這兩個人按指紋嗎？院長覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：當然可以讓更新的科技導入，包括「人臉辨識」或是「虹膜辨識」，基本上都是未來可行的，可是以現在來講，可能還是需要一筆經費，然後去做訓練。"],["葛委員如鈞：是，院長，我希望你們可以提出報告作檢討改善，當時我們都看到了，數人頭數了老半天，其實對管理人員來講也很困擾，而且我覺得這個準確率會有一些狀況。現在正值故宮115年度預算擬編概算，世界上發生多起文物遭竊的案件，不管是因為地緣政治還是經濟的狀態，我們希望院方能向行政院積極爭取預算，加強故宮庫房的防盜措施，有沒有在這樣的規劃？現在在擬編嘛！"],["蕭院長宗煌：這個當然可以，可是……"],["葛委員如鈞：你不要現在在這裡講，結果實際上編出來，我又沒有看到。"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，如果就那天的情況，我用實務來說明……"],["葛委員如鈞：你就說60分啊！"],["蕭院長宗煌：不是，要掃描這些委員及助理的話，基本上，我不能拿他們的身分證來掃描，因為這個又不是護照，所以它還是有實際執行上考量的工作要處理，並不是設置了以後，然後每個人進去就掃一下，因為這是要經過存檔……"],["葛委員如鈞：院長沒有直接回答我問題，我覺得不要繞，整個70萬件的國寶，仰賴在這兩個人按指紋跟肉眼比對，你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上，一般正常的話，入庫的人員都是我們自己的館員跟專案的包裝運輸公司人員，不會突然有一大批這樣的人。"],["葛委員如鈞：院長不要再逃避這個問題，您自己也打60分，之前就是有出現過沒有在名單裡面的人進去，這次訪查陰錯陽差，我們發現這樣的狀況還是有可能發生，希望能編列相關的預算來解決，同時要有檢討報告，可不可以？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，針對這個部分，我們當然希望可以爭取更多的經費來精進庫房的管理。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，最後一個議題，謝謝召委，我再借一點時間。最後來談有關故宮的定位，今年這個消息出來，其實大家都很心碎，尤其是故宮的支持者，新聞報導提到博物館參觀人數高達300萬人的第一名不是故宮博物院，這個人次剛剛很多人都提過了，今年是故宮百年的院慶，大家都很希望看到更好的結果，我們有看到今年2月及3月的參觀人數跟去年同期相比，今年是百年喔！不僅沒有增加，反倒更加的減少，請問您有沒有了解一下不增反減的原因？還是這就是你的KPI，希望人次越來越少，難道是這樣嗎？不是吧？"],["蕭院長宗煌：報告委員，不是，是北院減少，南院增加，而北院減少的原因，是因為「大美不言」特展，剛剛提到一個人流過去……現在北院也有增加了，就是因為……"],["葛委員如鈞：4月增加了，是不是？4月還沒過完，2月及3月就是減少，北院的數字都放在這裡啊！"],["蕭院長宗煌：現在北院人次加總起來都已經上來了，南院增加了更多。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒關係，這個長期的下降，剛剛都說了，以前一年有五、六百萬人，扣除掉外國觀光人次，其實我們的本地觀光客也還是下降，我們剛剛都看到數字了。我們有點懷疑，這次跟故宮南院有明確亞洲博物館的定位，故宮北院長年陷入定位不明，甚至有點尷尬的狀態，請問院長，故宮北院到底是不是能夠很明確的定位？其實我們看了一下你們在……"],["蕭院長宗煌：故宮北院的定位一直都很清楚。"],["葛委員如鈞：是什麼？"],["蕭院長宗煌：就是一個華夏博物館，以典藏中華文物為主的博物館。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，事實上，你們的官網上也講了，「China's national culture」華夏的文物，希望給院長一個機會，請院長大聲疾呼，我們現在都有錄影直播，是不是能夠幫我們喊一下「歡迎世界各國的旅客一起來欣賞」？可不可以幫我們喊一下？最後一句話讓給你，好不好？我們幫你寫好了。"],["蕭院長宗煌：當然歡迎全世界各國各地的旅客到故宮來欣賞中華文物、華夏文物的典藏。另外，我們最近有跟教育部所屬華語文教學的基金會合作，希望把臺灣有做華語文教育的七十幾個學校，通通變成是故宮的夥伴關係，把故宮當作他們的教室。"],["葛委員如鈞：故宮是最沒有意識形態的地方，希望大家一起來欣賞我們的華夏文物，好不好？大家一起努力，謝謝。"],["蕭院長宗煌：是。"],["主席：好，謝謝葛如鈞召委，院長請回。"],["主席（葛委員如鈞）：接下來請林宜瑾召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-9","speakers":["葛如鈞","萬美玲","柯志恩","劉書彬","林宜瑾","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","范雲","郭昱晴","陳冠廷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林沛祥","張雅琳"],"page_start":315,"meetingDate":["2025-04-30"],"gazette_id":"1144301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144301_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144301_00007"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}