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第一個是跟國際的這個比較進步的國家是接軌的第二個對我們的產業還有我們工作人員都是有幫助的那很高興今天社會發展部也跟我們是站在一起的就是新聞有價這一塊我們好好來做那第二個既然你們提出有餘力現在又碰到川普這個高關稅那這個很容易可以解決的"},{"start":144.55,"end":159.697,"text":"我認為 包括這個台灣民眾黨啊我們可以 我們本來是雙軌那我們可以去贊成不見得要成立這個基金會我們就用直接議價 就我剛剛講的我們今天這個法例很重要我們就是通過這個立法之後"},{"start":160.953,"end":186.947,"text":"有一個法律的這個依據讓所有這個媒體可以跟Google可以跟臉書跟這個大型的這個社會平台開始進行議價這是今天我覺得是當務之急好不好所以不要擔心不要一捏會死說好像因為關公費的事情就沒辦法解決事實上是不會的那我簡單的報告一下這個我們台灣民眾黨啊對這個案子非常非常的這個重視"},{"start":188.601,"end":214.177,"text":"因為現在台灣的這個媒體環境確實是不好確實不好 它有兩個部分一個就是很多的媒體是長期的這個虧損那第二個也是很嚴重的對我們的新聞從業人員辛辛苦苦你不管是攝影或者是很多這個媒體人辛辛苦苦在工作到後來都是無償這個真的是非常不好那我初步算了一下我們去看了以前這個資料例如說Google它一年可能在台灣例如說可以賺到大概400億營業額"},{"start":216.243,"end":233.902,"text":"那如果比較先進國家他應該大概是5%左右400億乘以5%應該就有20億那這20億的這個挹注如果臉書那邊也可以談出來或者比較大型的這個數位平台我們都可以透過強制的這個溢價給他法源之後有20幾億30幾億的錢進到我們這個媒體環境來那第一個我們的新聞從業人員"},{"start":239.312,"end":256.101,"text":"他們的智慧財產也受到這個尊重了新聞是有價的第二個對媒體本身也可以很大的一個改善好不好我們就共同趕快做這件事情今天最後做一個總結我們跟時間賽跑這是第一個所以我呼籲這個法要趕快過那第二個不要因淚匯食"},{"start":257.542,"end":276.736,"text":"包括台灣民眾黨本來是雙軌的我們可以在修等一下在討論的時候把這個基金會這個或許就可以把它修掉我們可以比較在這個強制這個議價這邊趕快來做好不好我們共同來努力很期待啦很期待今天這個案子可以趕快過那這個案子對我們台灣的這個媒體環境真的幫助會很大請大家共同來努力謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160888","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160888","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc0011affeb4263c9092bf9a8039e28b7ca5144d4d67ecd09c1047be7cfaf59973b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"09:03:49 - 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謝謝主席 以及現場的各位官員 還有在勞動節還在上班的各位媒體朋友今天我們這個相關的法規的制定就跟我們廣大的媒體業者跟從業人員有非常大的關聯"},{"start":19.379,"end":42.618,"text":"大家都知道媒體溢價法在國內其實討論了非常非常久尤其在國外尤其Google好像還有Facebook這些大型的數位平台他們長期是用無常性的來使用傳統的媒體的新聞所以在國內外都討論要怎麼樣去建立制度"},{"start":43.399,"end":66.308,"text":"那麼以國外經驗來說現在在國際上大概有三種模式一個是澳洲模式就是商業溢價跟強制仲裁的模式另外還有歐盟的模式以及加拿大的模式為了促進數位平台跟新聞媒體產業能夠平衡的發展建立對等的協商機制"},{"start":67.108,"end":90.901,"text":"所以本席的修法的方向我提出了是新闻媒体与数位平台强制溢价法那么我采取的就是澳洲模式强调商业溢价跟强制仲裁由公正的第三方以最终报价仲裁法决定数位平台应该给付给新闻媒体的授权金额"},{"start":91.761,"end":115.804,"text":"大家都知道我們事實上媒體第四權是我們民主社會絕對不能夠缺少的角色而且它有監督公權力的義務但是大家也知道以台灣來說其實我們的媒體呢其實非常的跑爆核而且長期以來甚至出現了一些特定的媒體啊那麼長期是依賴政府的標案而來生存的"},{"start":116.204,"end":123.529,"text":"那其實這個都不是一個健康的一個趨勢所以呢我們認為應該用這樣的一個法令讓我們媒體的產業它的收益啊得到應有的合理的報酬然後以免我們監督政府"},{"start":134.795,"end":158.021,"text":"監督公共政策的第四權的功能示威另外我要特別講到在司法院對本席的提案裡面有提到合法秘密保持命令認為應該由仲裁庭交付給智慧財產法庭這部分我認為是可以接受的我決定也會從善如流"},{"start":158.861,"end":173.506,"text":"但是出發部最近示警說我們如果實施媒體溢價立法可能會引來美國的關稅報復我覺得這一點事實上真的是拿美國跟川普來做擋箭牌"},{"start":174.926,"end":178.569,"text":"而且在台灣尤其我們面對對等關稅事實上也都還沒有提及這一點如果我們就此未說然後因為所謂的美國壓力卻犧牲了廣大台灣"},{"start":191.016,"end":204.084,"text":"媒體以及媒體從業人員的合理的權益我認為第一個這沒有真正的來捍衛我們媒體的權益第二個而我們所剛才我所提到的讓我們的媒體權是是為然後"},{"start":207.501,"end":220.704,"text":"削弱了他們監督公共政策監督政府的這樣的一個力量這樣子絕對是得不償失的所以我個人認為述發部這樣的一個說法事實上並不應該成為阻擋我們媒體溢價法相關法規的制定以上謝謝謝謝我們王宏威"}]}},{"id":"160845","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160845","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc061a778bd17a650c41fb26350580dc16905daebae4db85f911ebfeb97457f9b415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"09:13:01 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謝謝主席 那我快速做一個提案說明今天我這邊有三個不同的法案但是其實在整個這一個所謂的國家安全保護機制裡面其實有很多的層次那很多是在去年再提出了 所以我今天只說明是就今天被排案的部分那第一個就是說我們在對於這個國家安全的保護第一個是很需要 如果是公務人員的話 那需要一些忠誠的考核"},{"start":25.652,"end":53.736,"text":"然後再來就是需要一些透明跟揭露的機制然後以及事後的處罰齁那目前來講呢以經濟安全為例齁我在這一個簡報上面放的就是說在日本他們盤點所有的這種跟經濟安全有關竊取技術有關的所有的態樣那這些態樣呢有一些是我們現行法已經能夠事後處罰規能夠已經規範的到啊有一些是規範不到那裡面非常重要的裡面呢就是我特別指出來就是一二三第四個這個留學生研究者的交流"},{"start":54.356,"end":78.044,"text":"倒數第三個這個所謂的商業間諜還有最後面的這個不公平的貿易行為這幾個是目前規範比較不足的地方那這個貿易的部分是在另外一個方案我這邊不多做說明那這邊在留學生跟這個所謂的商業間諜裡面在日本裡面目前中國在那邊竊取技術或者做這一個間諜行為最常見的都是透過中間人那這個跟我們在國防外交裡面去審這個所謂的這個"},{"start":81.426,"end":105.559,"text":"軍官裡面的這個所謂的滲透很多都是透過退役的軍官其實有異曲同工之妙所以在這邊我們我在國安法這個第二條跟第三條都做了一個相對應的規定就是把這個中間人就是在中間這個做仲介的這一個把他納入到法律的規範那裡面的這一個因為我們是用反滲透法上面的文字那反滲透法的文字本來就有點繞口所以"},{"start":106.419,"end":130.625,"text":"針對這一個文字到底應該做什麼修正尊重這一個行政機關的意見那另外呢還要特別說明的就是說因為我們可能很多會想到就是說這是不是原本用共犯的方式就可以處理那其實這是一個權宜之計因為我們目前來講對於這一個所謂的這些行為所規範的這一個態樣種類太少了那種類太少了就會像剛剛黃姐委員提到的有些根本就處罰不到"},{"start":131.585,"end":157.279,"text":"那處罰不到的話就會形成一個詭異的問題就是你沒有正犯就沒有共犯所以我們希望藉由這樣的一個暫時的修法的方式至少能夠讓中間人能夠納入到規範裡面就跟反生龍法有點類似那再來接下來的一個就是說呢剛剛講的這個事後的部分因為除了這個處罰以外很多有時候呢尤其是不管是我們的公務員啊軍官等等之類的他們會有一些退休分"},{"start":157.959,"end":173.152,"text":"那我們除了原來的刑罰之外是不是要針對這一個行政的部分就他們的這一個退休分來去給予減免或者說讓他喪失請領的權利這個部分是我們現行法本來就已經有的規定那目前來講我們是把這一個"},{"start":174.313,"end":191.529,"text":"喪失勤領權力希望他能夠把反滲透法訂進去因為當時這一個的原因就是因為說這些人已經違反了國家的安全所以呢我們希望他這個喪失勤領的權力但因為我們訂了反滲透法就是為了國家安全但當時沒有相對應的把反滲透法訂到這一邊"},{"start":192.269,"end":216.397,"text":"所以這邊把反送中法加進來這是第一個那第二個我覺得比較重要的地方就是說這個法務部在這邊有特別提到說這有沒有違反比例原則的一個問題那裡面有特別提到這個因為我們在寫的時候是參酌公務人員退休這個之前撫恤法跟政務人員退職撫恤條例第13條所以呢如果說原來這個部分可能有些比例原則的問題的話我在想說"},{"start":217.017,"end":244.146,"text":"是不是到之後我們在等院版的時候是把公務人員退休之前跟這個政務人員退服的條例的相關的規定也來一併做修正那這樣的話呢就可以比較符合比例原則的一個考量那最後一個我要提到的就是說呢中間這一個部分就是剝奪或減少因為我們目前法律上的一個設計就是要嘛就是喪失嘛那有時候部分可能會停止那中間這一個剝奪跟減少呢通常來講呢就是針對這個刑度比較輕的部分或者"},{"start":244.626,"end":255.28,"text":"兩岸條例九之三的規定就是說減少的部分但是因為現在統戰的太陽實在太多了很難就被這中間三樣所涵蓋所以是不是應該把這些有損軍運或妨礙國家尊嚴的行為把它納入讓它能夠比較擴張剝奪或減少退出機遇那這樣的一個"},{"start":263.103,"end":281.063,"text":"那這樣的一個方式呢就也能夠比較符合像剛剛在這個法務部的報告裡面說比例原則的問題如果我們能夠把剝奪或減少退出給予的部分做一個增加那或許在喪失勤領權利這個部分就可以稍微做一個調整那就更可以符合比例原則好那我這邊提案說明說明到這邊謝謝"}]}},{"id":"160843","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160843","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc0b18a7a42f514dbe91fb26350580dc16905daebae4db85f916e357ca2c70d75735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:05:27 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PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1217.831,"end":1218.571,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":1261.22,"end":1265.094,"text":"谢谢观看 欢迎订阅"},{"start":1300.503,"end":1311.667,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1876.38,"end":1876.824,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":1941.875,"end":1942.636,"text":"今天是五一勞動節"},{"start":1946.344,"end":1966.138,"text":"主席台所有的同仁借这个佳节向中年青年敬业热诚奉献的劳工朋友们表达由衷的敬意谢谢所以我们今天的质询就五加一分钟简短一点好现在进行讨论事项请宣读"},{"start":1967.267,"end":1967.367,"text":"討論事項審查"},{"start":1985.578,"end":1997.928,"text":"本日議程所列討論事項再生能源發展條例第13條條文修正草案共計兩個版本那現在請經濟部郭智慧部長就委員提案進行報告"},{"start":2010.185,"end":2033.088,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家早今天成功貴委員會的邀請就審查再生能源發展條例第13條條文修正草案進行報告深感榮幸緊究廢棄物資源化利用推動政策以及大院各委員所擬具草案內容檢要報告如下敬請各位委員不吝視角"},{"start":2034.369,"end":2061.365,"text":"非气物资源化利用之法规调试策略自我国98年7月8日制定公布再生能源发展条例以来为促进资源永续循环利用并配合环境部建立国内非气物去化的体系以及强化转废为能的管理政策将经处理之国内一般及一般事业非气物纳入再生能源发展条例有关发电"},{"start":2063.065,"end":2085.856,"text":"夠與熱利用輔助的適用範圍促使廢棄剩餘資財得以轉換為能源進行再利用並結合跨部門力量共同維護環境生態大院委員盧明哲等19人凝聚再生能源發展條例第13條條文修正草案本部說明如下"},{"start":2087.028,"end":2109.437,"text":"提案修正第13條第一項第三款規定針對一般廢棄物或事業廢棄物經處理後所製成的燃料明定應符合環境部相關標準使得申請相關獎勵補助二提案修正第13條第三項規定建議配合農業部組織改造修正行政院農委會為農業部"},{"start":2111.806,"end":2134.677,"text":"本部的意见是目前环境部推动之强化转废为能之管理政策与废弃物料源管理空气污染排放等法规明定相关标准规范因此废弃物作燃料再利用自应应符合环境部相关标准及法令"},{"start":2136.052,"end":2156.489,"text":"因此,有关委员修正第13条第1项第3款部分提案内容与目前推动方向相互,本部竞表赞同。3.令委员提案修正第13条第3项规定将会同机关由行政院农委会议修正为农业部一节,本部竞表尊重。"},{"start":2157.93,"end":2160.491,"text":"本部的意見是委員提案修正第13條第三項規定將行政院農委會修正為農業部一節本部競表同意"},{"start":2186.926,"end":2201.48,"text":"感謝大院諸位委員對於我國再生能源發展政策所提供的建議再生能源發展條例自98年制定公布以來因應國際上採用廢棄物能源替代石化燃料使用"},{"start":2202.859,"end":2230.991,"text":"协助废弃物处理降低环境污染以及产业减碳排放等净零永续的规划因此经济部配合环境部废弃物处理政策鼓励地方政府与企业投入资源推动高效能废弃物能源化设施提升能源使用效率以上报告敬请各位委员指正视教并祝各位委员生理健康出世顺利"},{"start":2233.712,"end":2252.885,"text":"好谢谢现在进行询答委员询答前原例作以下宣告每位委员发言时间本会委员五分钟必要时得延长一分钟非本会委员四分钟上午十点三十分截止发言登记首先请陈廷飞委员发言"},{"start":2260.777,"end":2263.601,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長還有能源署署長陳部長 署長"},{"start":2272.229,"end":2293.943,"text":"委員長部長好我想在4月18號其實我們辦公室就已經轉了我們的大地莊園麻豆大地莊園他們的陳情書給了我們能源署也就是說他們的立場很簡單誰都知道"},{"start":2294.904,"end":2310.435,"text":"光電很重要但是要取之有道也就是說我們一直要求光電業者你必須要溝通協調我們將心比心如果說你住了20年的環境"},{"start":2311.195,"end":2329.667,"text":"突然之間這個環境是過去台南縣政府舒焕智縣長一直強調他要去做一個南台灣第一個綠建築的村莊園這邊住了非常多的人是一個集中型的住宅"},{"start":2330.767,"end":2358.203,"text":"結果呢在20年後你跟他說突然之間他可能一覺醒來周邊全部都變成光電板雖然是屋頂型的光電板他還是光電板而且是必須他在室內養殖有一個實質的建物之後在上面蓋光電板"},{"start":2359.065,"end":2373.925,"text":"所以等於他周邊全部都是水泥建物然後上面加光電板將心比心他們完全被蒙在鼓裡都不知道當他們看到一棟一棟的室內養殖"},{"start":2377.574,"end":2391.479,"text":"如雨後春筍慢慢的出現的時候他們才發現知識體大原來他不是只有要做室內養殖他要做的是屋頂型的光電板難怪整個炸鍋整個炸鍋他們求助無門最後拿了這一個陳情書來給我他們陸續還在簽署"},{"start":2408.277,"end":2432.606,"text":"我一直都跟我們經濟部還有能源署說我們為什麼不要開大門走大路也就是說今天我們一直強調你要跟地方溝通每一次我們的廠商都是先展後奏然後到了廠商已經看到拿到了相關的執照之後"},{"start":2435.281,"end":2461.755,"text":"讓地方的民眾產生了反彈你要去溝通 請問你要怎麼溝通為什麼每一次在台南都發生這樣的事件然後每一次都是讓人民很多的失望部長這個部分其實他很單純但是單純到讓地方政府跟中央在踢皮球 為什麼"},{"start":2463.442,"end":2485.733,"text":"因為地方政府他現在切開因為養殖 室內養殖是拿地方政府的農許然後呢當有農許之後可以蓋了 蓋了室內養殖之後他可以跟我們能源署來申請屋頂型光電板他是不用環評的"},{"start":2487.941,"end":2513.648,"text":"所以他就是用這樣的以法玩法的方式然後把這樣的做法造成地方的反彈那現在問題到你們這裡了光電板屋頂型光電板他一定要跟我們能源署來申請工作許可證好那我們怎麼辦我們怎麼處理"},{"start":2516.645,"end":2539.681,"text":"報告委員我想您的這個部分的槌尋我想我們可以了解一個關鍵也就是說我們在事前沒有跟這個地方的居民有做一個比較好的溝通所以在進行這件事情的時候當然造成居民的不解造成反對"},{"start":2540.842,"end":2563.281,"text":"那這個部分我想就這個案子來講我們中央的態度還是一樣就是說任何的這個公共的這個措施任何的這個辦法在推動的時候我們還是要尋求到當地居民的支持我想這個政府的政策如果沒有這個國人的支持政府施政大概這個意義就不大"},{"start":2563.982,"end":2574.399,"text":"所以我想這一部分我們會再多多溝通等到那個居民同意那我們才會可能再來考慮放行這個是我們的做法"},{"start":2575.307,"end":2601.927,"text":"那剛才您在說的這個法的部分我想這個也是這個各位大院裡面的這些委員大家來協助對我們這個比較這個方法上面發現有一些比較這個有疏漏的地方的話我想我們這個都可以討論來做修正原則上我們的這個所有的這個綠能政策我們都希望能夠獲得國人的支持"},{"start":2602.608,"end":2614.406,"text":"那当地的居民如果他们有反对我们也不会强硬的来通过这样的一个做法部长真的要拜托我们一定要跟所有的光电业者说"},{"start":2615.683,"end":2634.624,"text":"我們如果可以開大門走大路事前讓所有的居民知道到底你要做什麼事前溝通絕對會比反彈之後的溝通更好來做處理可是你現在大家都反彈了已經對你廠商沒有信任感"},{"start":2635.425,"end":2663.455,"text":"所以真的這個你們要把關注而且將心比心如果你周邊你住的環境全部都被光電板全部都圍起來了你的心你會安嗎我想我們大家的想法都會一致這個部分我們會來檢討來改善再拜託部長然後我認為其實有很多我們農業部有劃設出來"},{"start":2665.656,"end":2689.358,"text":"離我們居民比較遠的地方像有些是根本餘溫養殖已經沒有辦法去做處理的還有就是貧瘠地沒辦法建造沒辦法允許沒辦法建造這個部分為什麼我們都不去做這些的一個規劃這些都離人民很遠反而他們都要往人民"},{"start":2690.118,"end":2715.876,"text":"去擠 去壓 這不是很奇怪嗎是是 報告委員我們現在已經朝這個方向在努力了我們將來會公告哪一些地方是適合光電業者去開發的我們會先公告我們甚至鼓勵他也沒有問題啊 是是不是因為我知道在平擠地他可能距離會比較遠他要做的匱限或所有的設施會比較花重本"},{"start":2716.776,"end":2719.157,"text":"所以我覺得我們不能說因為這樣子然後讓光電業者為了要獲利然後往我們民眾然後人民的一個居住範圍去壓這是不對的我們這個一定會以國人的福祉為第一優先不會以業者的福祉為第一優先"},{"start":2734.685,"end":2755.45,"text":"所以部長拜託這個案子請你們要把關好請我們能源署一定要把關好你們的把關才會讓光電業者會有壓力啊這個部分再拜託在還沒有人民民眾同意之前你絕對不能核發工作許可證這個是很重要的拜託 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請張家俊委員做詢問"},{"start":2770.58,"end":2773.162,"text":"主席我想請郭部長部長部長早安委員長部長你今天頭髮吹得特別帥喔讚美你一下謝謝那部長我最近有非常關心你在這個網路節目接受專訪那針對核能研議的議題提出不少具體的看法跟想法"},{"start":2800.319,"end":2809.625,"text":"那上上週本席有提醒你或許購買核電設備甚至他的技術對於美國的這個對等關稅的談判是一個對台灣很好的籌碼那也顯然你很願意深入面對現在政府錯誤的能源政策的這個調整跟挑戰那本席在這裡要表達肯定但是這個能源問題呢真的是不是說朝夕可解的我想要理解說目前您具體的看法是"},{"start":2830.699,"end":2849.971,"text":"報告委員所謂的錯誤或者正確這個是要假以時間才能夠來作為這樣的斷定每一個時間都有當時的需求那目前針對核能研疫的部分您說您有具體的想法可以說一下嗎報告委員對於您剛才講說的新的技術"},{"start":2850.971,"end":2867.576,"text":"新的科技技術我想我們基本上的原則就是不會排斥我們也歡迎討論那對您剛才所說的核能的部分就核能的部分我們基本上就三個原則"},{"start":2868.476,"end":2888.789,"text":"有我知道這個核能安全全民共識核廢料處理問題你看你講到我都會背了這個是也非常重要的確非常重要那我想要知道說假設本院通過安全年限延長到60年的話經濟部目前有再做任何的積極準備嗎各種的這個情況各種的這個準備我們都有"},{"start":2894.11,"end":2921.73,"text":"有嗎 類似有什麼準備可以譬如說在去年我們就我們就知道說這個核能的機組會在這個月就會這個下載但是我們的人去年開始一號機下的時候我們人並沒有解散我們所有的人都留著包括核二的人我們都是留著的"},{"start":2922.338,"end":2945.179,"text":"因為這些的這個經驗這一些核能的操作經驗是非常珍貴的所以針對核能安全就第一項你講的核能安全的部分呢很多專家學者都有多次的正面評估覺得這是可行的至於那個核廢處理您在節目中也提醒說提起說目前的這個乾式儲存是可行的那"},{"start":2949.422,"end":2974.634,"text":"現在看起來剩下的關鍵就是全民共識啦因為在之前 我想我們的甘廚廠一直在地方政府申請都沒有下啦去年通過了呀對 所以剛通過嘛 我們現在才開始在建置那這個進度為何呢這個是短期的 甘廚這個還是短暫的但是你把你私廚的轉到甘廚 你私廚就挪出空位啦"},{"start":2975.374,"end":2984.546,"text":"對 但是這個需要時間大概目前進度是什麼時候這個第一個乾式儲存槽可以完成呢我們現在這個核一已經完成那核二現在施工中大概預計核二什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":2996.665,"end":3003.211,"text":"大概今年的年底可以完成大概明年就可以拿到執照那核三目前有任何進度呢核三還沒有還沒有那等於說明年的這個時候你就會有核一核二的乾式儲存槽你施施移到乾式之後你就多了兩個核電廠的核廢料儲存的空間"},{"start":3020.607,"end":3041.545,"text":"所以這個對於我們要研議是非常正面的剩下最後的這個全民共識啊其實這個這個氣候變遷國家氣候變遷對策委員會的副召集人童子賢先生他都說了台灣民意對於核能研議已有共識是不是你覺得需要公投再進一步確認這個共識呢"},{"start":3043.486,"end":3065.499,"text":"我認為是不用公投所以你覺得全民共識已經有達標了嗎這個不是需要公投才能夠解決的共識問題那這個共識我們意思就是說其實所謂共識對我們來講因為是對安全上面有顧慮的人那我們如果去跟他取得共識"},{"start":3066.44,"end":3084.489,"text":"那就這個核能的運轉那這個核廢料可以處理那這兩個如果能夠解決我想大概他擔心的就是所以核廢料處理您已經在掌握之中了然後包括說這個核能的安全核安全的部分我們認為這個全球這麼多的專家大家可以證明事實上這個40年的運作我們也沒有看到它出過問題"},{"start":3093.413,"end":3110.303,"text":"沒錯 那所以現在問題就出在於會不會代表未來的20年是不是安全的這個我想要專家判斷那是不是可以盡速做一個評估呢那這個東西 我想報告委員也不是說公投就能夠代表大家就可以看安全一定要專家認可是 那可不可以請部長盡速的指示趕快請專家開始評估因為這件事情是刻不容緩因為河三廠的二號機在5月17號停機之後"},{"start":3122.31,"end":3126.333,"text":"會產生什麼問題你知道嗎產生的問題是 沒錯台灣達到非核家園但是火力發電廠的比重將高達84%你知道我們中南部中南部的空氣品質有多差嗎你知道我們中南部的孩子都在用廢發電所以這個火力發電的比重提高對於空氣影響的"},{"start":3148.027,"end":3170.18,"text":"河山沒有這個停止運轉之前也是81啊那你的意思是說增加3%對你來說沒有差對你來說沒有差但是對於我就是希望說您在政策推進上要多一份謹慎多一份同理心就是要更多的證據來證明啊你這些"},{"start":3173.302,"end":3176.786,"text":"這個核電停運之後84%的這個火力發電如何不會讓這個空氣品質變差你要說服的是這些地方的父母們零碳的零碳的再生能源跟底碳的"},{"start":3190.5,"end":3211.581,"text":"部長 你不要跟我說3%沒有差希望你有同理心我們都希望台灣的能源是更有韌性 更安全這是我們共同努力的目標但是你不能跟我說3%沒有差這樣子的話我相信不只本行沒辦法接受甚至所有的地方政府都沒有辦法接受我不是講說 這個就是我們在努力的"},{"start":3212.322,"end":3228.625,"text":"我們從113年的3.4萬公噸那114年我們可以下降到3.1萬公噸我們是在下降的並沒有增加的不像你所說的說84它就是增加的我們是下降的"},{"start":3229.806,"end":3233.809,"text":"那你們要繼續努力繼續下降 因為本來你叫台中火力發電廠在美國的雜誌ClimateTrace上面 它是全世界碳排放量名列前茅在全世界都是名列前茅 你仔細看"},{"start":3249.722,"end":3255.064,"text":"下降是對的 繼續下降是對的我們希望空氣品質可以越來越好然後我們的這個供電也能夠穩定就是核能如果可以研議的話我們台灣的產業才有希望我們台灣未來才有競爭力嘛好不好 部長您是這個經濟總舵主你要繼續加油我們是多元的電力啦您的指教我們都會認真的來思考"},{"start":3274.392,"end":3290.918,"text":"我們的共識也是讓這個台灣的空氣更好台灣的這個運作台灣的電力更清新這是無論至於但是我要跟委員報告真是81%到83%不會像你所說的說哇大家開始靠廢數你87%本來那個基準就很高啦對啦所以不會說這樣慘了"},{"start":3296.98,"end":3301.006,"text":"我們完全跟妳的想法是一樣我們都是為了國人的健康在努力謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝我們現在請張祺凱委員做詢答"},{"start":3338.435,"end":3363.711,"text":"請問郭部長郭部長好 委員長郭部長 你說核管法修法過了核三長就可以研立嘛對不對 這是你昨天去專訪以前清清楚楚說的嘛那你知道核管法最近就要三讀通過了嗎 你知道嗎我不知道"},{"start":3364.793,"end":3373.323,"text":"5月17號 5月16號就過所以你到時候會兌現諾言也是為了我們企業發展為了我們全民好河山就可以研擬 對不對"},{"start":3375.066,"end":3397.051,"text":"在法令的規定之下我們政府一定是在法跟規的規定之下我們來運作那核管法修過了我要看它修的內容是什麼我們還是要在法的框架之下去運作跳脫法的框架我們還是沒有辦法做因為我們是政府"},{"start":3402.253,"end":3420.5,"text":"柏定你昨天是對著全民講啊 那個是公開的講話我們在核管法修過以後 因為修成什麼樣子我不知道但是修在我們可以依循的這個框架之內 我們一定是依法行事"},{"start":3421.54,"end":3438.391,"text":"框架 這邊的修法的重點就是你剛剛其實說的嘛它是把40年 我們本來40年要除以嘛變成60年 這個是明確有修的第二個第二個 我在那邊明天跟你講事實上為什麼要這樣修因為最近這1到3年啊這個日本"},{"start":3439.071,"end":3462.307,"text":"就已經把它的40年改成延長到60年了美國有些廠 核電廠還從40年已經變成80年了是跟國際接軌的這次事實上就是你講的 我們是有修這個條文的所以你講的話 你要兌現你的諾言我現在是跟你講報告委員 我是政府的一份子我們一定是遵定所有的法規來行事"},{"start":3463.268,"end":3491.337,"text":"所以我對在法規之內的事情我承諾的我一定做得到所以你承諾如果修過了就是要核三眼力嘛不然的話你就變成耍嘴皮子的這個部長了不是耍嘴皮子喔所以你有沒有對線你昨天講的話有沒有對線核三場的眼力在法律規定之內的事情我承諾的我就會去做我承諾在法律規定之外的我不會去做法律規定之外的我不會做"},{"start":3492.369,"end":3520.32,"text":"我也不承諾因為我不知道你現在是一個假設的命題在那裡我假設啊條文這麼清楚啊就是你昨天對著全民講的啦40年延長到我在講的是在這個法規之內我們基本上還是那個三原則但是你修過了我那個三個原則基本上的三個原則如果今天法律的規定之內我可以做我就做啊"},{"start":3520.9,"end":3543.269,"text":"你不是要在這裡說,你說三個原則裡面核廢料嘛,你說美國會幫我們處理嘛,對不對?你剛才說的還有乾式的儲存潮,乾式儲存潮不短期,乾式儲存潮可以放50年,更重要的先進國家現在都是這樣處理嘛,對不對?美國、日本、韓國、法國,它現在的核廢料放在哪裡?都是乾式儲存潮嘛,而且可以放50年啊"},{"start":3545.946,"end":3569.057,"text":"我們會交給技術部門來確認我想我們也不可能我們台灣在這一方面的領域確實有一些專家但是這種事情每一個世界在世界上每一個國家他買的那個設備的時代跟機種可能不會都一樣"},{"start":3571.238,"end":3587.703,"text":"每一個機器都不會一樣你看剛才真的機器不一樣啦晃出來的核廢物料委員你可能不太清楚就是每一台機器所用的這個鈾原料那個鈾棒是定做的"},{"start":3589.122,"end":3609.822,"text":"這個你可能不清楚我們現在說合會要處理嘛所以你剛才說了嘛你不是專訪的時候講得很清楚全美國包括AIT的處長都講了你說可以請他們幫忙處理嘛對不對啊等於全世界都是這樣放放在幹事的處分場全世界都是這樣沒有錯但是處理的方法是不一樣的嘛處理方法不會一樣啊"},{"start":3611.328,"end":3638.253,"text":"因為那個規格 所有的 美國可以處理日本可以處理 法國可以處理所有全世界用核能都 核廢料都可以處理現在台灣沒有辦法處理不是台灣沒有辦法 太怪了吧沒有喔 委員你現在又在講話術了台灣可不可以處理我們尋求可以處理的方法來處理OK 好 所以你在尋求可以嘛其實 好來 那你說安不安全 博理你知道嗎"},{"start":3639.82,"end":3665.867,"text":"國際原子能總署啊 對我們核電廠的評比啊是前段班欸 全世界第六名你剛才也說啊 它已經用了 全世界用了40年啊是安全的嘛 對不對所以安全我認為沒有問題啊 核廢料問題也解決了啊第三個 等於全民共識啦你去看看那個最近的 最近這兩三年的民調都馬上是七成以上 認為要重啟核能啊欸 我們還有公投過欸"},{"start":3667.062,"end":3695.7,"text":"以核養綠對不對以核養綠就是要用核電啊對不對那你說要全民共識這個全民共識是跟台灣民眾的全民共識還是跟賴清德跟民進黨的全民共識如果是跟全民的話那些民調都是啊那我們現在要推動要更領濟全民的共識所以我們推了一個核三言議嘛你說多此一舉這不就是要弄死你們第三項嗎委員你又講錯囉核三言議"},{"start":3697.236,"end":3720.661,"text":"全民共識 你剛才在講 你是講說共識這個問題是你們的前面的共識嘛不是這樣子嘛 你的意思可能是說河山研議要不要公投啦 是不是對啦 公投就在臨近全民共識嘛所以你剛講的那三個條件都符合嘛 合會要處理安全我是講說如果按照你的邏輯來講啦 公投是多此一舉嘛"},{"start":3721.71,"end":3740.89,"text":"你剛才講過了啊對不對你剛才講過了為什麼要多此一舉就是你要公投就浪費錢啊一次就要五億然後又要花很多的時間對不對你們賴清德總統跟民進黨不就是說要有領濟全民共識嗎公投第一個公投第一個是憲法付給人民的權利耶你跟民意要對上跟憲法都對上嗎"},{"start":3742.512,"end":3767.201,"text":"那第二個更重要你說你要領濟全民共識公投就是一種領濟全民共識的方法啊那個委員你的主張我沒有意見只是人家主持人問我嘛我表達的意思這樣而已好不好我們意見有很多不一樣的意見我剛講說你們講的這三項都已經解決了然後你要公開講說這個核管法因為你的目的通過之後就是要沒有沒有保定我已經講過囉核管法是要通過"},{"start":3770.182,"end":3792.476,"text":"核管法通過那一天院長也在大院裡面講得非常的清楚核管法通過的時候是大家理性討論然後通過的他不會復議啊你們講說要通過你會不會復議我跟委員報告你可以問院長這是他講的話我想那個也有記錄嘛所以我"},{"start":3795.042,"end":3802.619,"text":"對我來講我的基本原則是這樣子報告委員我們基本原則是這樣在法律的規定之下我們不會預法"},{"start":3804.161,"end":3823.907,"text":"也不會越法我們一定會按照法律核准的範圍裡面去施作這個就是我們公務同仁做事情的一個依規嘛依法就是依核管法嘛現在全民在看我們經濟部長講話算話嗎經濟部長能夠講話不算話嗎現在全民希望你講出人民的需求企業的需求只要在法律的規定之內我講的話都算數"},{"start":3832.569,"end":3860.903,"text":"算數嘛對不對 所以現在錢比方看你會不會變成 又Q斷了不是啦 要變成是一個耍嘴皮子 耍嘴皮子這個懷疑這個懷疑那個委員 懷疑那個沒有意義啦你為什麼不懷疑說太陽從西邊出來來 保定 你也有一個重點嘛 你說核冷五月全部歸零以後啊不會對空氣有影響我給你看一下喔 去年河山廠的一號機"},{"start":3862.495,"end":3871.866,"text":"除以以後 你馬上跟麥寮電廠就續約啦麥寮電廠燒沒了 對不對這對空氣有沒有影響所以那一天有17個團體喔彰化 雲林 嘉義還有17個團體的民眾到行政院跟"},{"start":3882.618,"end":3894.144,"text":"監察院來抗議他們講什麼經濟部縱容繼續燒煤本來已經停了嘛我們賣了本來已經停了結果就是因為河山場一號機停了以後你看就是一個對比嘛繼續去買這個賣了的慢性殺人"},{"start":3897.503,"end":3923.197,"text":"他說每多發一度的這個煤就在155公里的麥寮電廠污染的範圍之內這是無差別持續在射殺國人的生命這是一個慢性的殺人麥寮是全台灣第二大污染源這什麼空氣會好呢你從去年的麥寮就看出來它是有問題的"},{"start":3925.66,"end":3950.693,"text":"然後保定你一直在講說天然氣是乾淨的還有低碳的天然氣我給大家看一個數據這是台電的數據啦台電112年火力發電的排放量在空氣污染這部分啊燃氣就是天然氣喔它是燃煤的在氮氧化物啊它是燃煤的47%不是沒有啊"},{"start":3953.289,"end":3966.317,"text":"燃煤0.173,燃氣是0.082,是有喔,差不多一半另外呢,PM10,就是悬浦的這個微粒啊燃煤是0.005,燃氣是多少?0.004,85%欸天然氣沒有什麼乾淨的天然氣啦"},{"start":3976.667,"end":4000.806,"text":"他還是有汙染啊對不對他如果跟咱們也比稍微低一點點我們從來沒有講過說天然氣是零碳的你不要把我們說低碳的東西你把它講成零碳這個就是完全用化術對嘛 不是化術嘛不一定不一定我們是理性物質科學在討論嘛你說郭志輝講說不會對空氣有什麼影響嘛我現在跟你說就是有影響嘛"},{"start":4001.735,"end":4020.405,"text":"我剛才給你一個很清楚的數據啊你這麼計較這個有影響 微量影響 稍微影響都要這樣子表示我們會依據你希望表達的方式先分析你認為我們應該分析幾這個影響很大嘛 我剛剛跟你講你賣了 你賣了都會用賣了繼續用賣了繼續用我們跟台電是一個團體"},{"start":4028.669,"end":4042.915,"text":"我們跟他的契約行為政府不能夠違反契約行為喔所以你不能用這一個每一次你都用那個契約行為就是到去年的4月就停了嘛你們是重新又去續的一個月"},{"start":4046.757,"end":4048.358,"text":"政府看的契約我們有多少的人在看政府可以違反這個契約嗎"},{"start":4065.987,"end":4084.122,"text":"政府可以違反契約嗎 否定 否定你在這個契約上面再知道 去年的重點是什麼就是麥寮跟台電本來合約已經停了嘛 對不對 是不是這樣25年嘛 那就是因為你核電廠 核伊林被關掉之後你去拿了這個東西又來 又去買 又繼續買啊 買到今年年底啊"},{"start":4085.629,"end":4107.448,"text":"所以你人民跟社團都上來抗議啊我都知情過你啊所以當然對我們的健康對空氣有影響對不對第二個我今天拿的是你們台電的資料天然氣也是有污染它當然比這個煤稍微低一點點可是還是有對不對它如果跟核電比當然會增加很多所以我現在是要跟你講你不要講說空氣沒有變異就形容詞在這邊變異啦好不好OK"},{"start":4111.874,"end":4126.141,"text":"好啦 因為我本來要問其他的 時間已經到了啦 保證現在最重要的啦 5月17號 核光法就過了就看你到底能不能讓河山眼力 現在全民都在看不要變成耍嘴彼此的這個經濟破綻 第二個河山"},{"start":4128.295,"end":4145.466,"text":"廠停了之後5月17號之後我們變成非核加鹽我們的電價不只變貴了成本增加了嘛空氣污染也增加5月17號以後你看我會不會漲價啦好不好5月18號各位可以看一下喔5月18號看我們電價有沒有漲如果電價有漲"},{"start":4146.847,"end":4163.419,"text":"5月18號那天電價有漲我下台好不好5月18號以後沒有漲請委員你說回這句話部長你為什麼要壓5月18號你不是一直在講10月10月份可能電價審議委員會開完以後電價審議委員會什麼時候開沒有錯電價審議委員會什麼時候開電價審議委員會你可以講電價審議委員會什麼時候開電價審議委員會9月底才開啊沒有開怎麼上架你這不話術嗎你要檢視你要駁定你要檢視的是"},{"start":4175.988,"end":4202.582,"text":"五一七之後你到十一月份會不會漲五月十七一號會不會漲電價你說五月十七一號會起價啊那是你說的啊五月十七之後你馬上會第一時間就漲嗎你當然開電價審理委員會啊所以人民要問你的事你每一次講話都是講第二天以後會變怎麼樣大委員大部長那是不是我們現在我們把時間等待主席要講了啦寶定人民要看你的是十一號有沒有漲價啦OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":4229.584,"end":4244.493,"text":"現在請鄭正前委員做詢答謝謝主席我想請一下郭智慧郭部長郭部長"},{"start":4251.502,"end":4278.762,"text":"委員長部長好因為剛剛有好多委員都提到了5月17號之後台灣就變非核家園的一個環境那因為核管法確實立法院也在修那我絕對認為也尊重您剛剛提到一個點就是說公務人員一定是依法行政依法在辦事這絕對是沒有問題的一個天條謝謝委員是 那我想請教一下就是說因為如果說現在核管法立法院通過的時候"},{"start":4279.522,"end":4307.385,"text":"那我們如果說要到河山研議這過程當中最快大概多久可以完成因為我記得之前在幾個月前的時候曾經有官員提到說河管法過了之後呢到河電廠要研議的時候還要好幾年的時間那我不知道經濟部對於這個部分有沒有更精準的一個估算過就說我們河管法過了之後到河電廠要研議"},{"start":4308.767,"end":4311.197,"text":"大概最快多久的時間可以達成"},{"start":4312.359,"end":4340.192,"text":"如果按照我們以前的資料來顯示就是合法通過了那我們要確認這個機組是不是可以再run多久這個是一個非常重要的命題因為以前的設計是40年現在要延到60年那我們想60年因為每一個就是好像說每一個設備都有它自己運作的狀況所以雖然其他的國家他們延到60年也有延到80年的"},{"start":4341.553,"end":4349.119,"text":"那因為每一台機組運轉的這個情況不會一樣所以我們還要經過檢查這個設備他要先檢查然後來判斷來確定他確實可以營造20年那這個這一段期間他當然就是不能夠正常的來這個發電"},{"start":4360.047,"end":4383.468,"text":"那麼根據以前的經驗上面來看光是這一個確認都要一年多了就要一年多的時間那也許現在的國外的資料裡面顯示也許可以快一點我想這一點就像大家所知道說有很多的民主國家他願意來幫忙我們來做把他們的經驗"},{"start":4383.888,"end":4412.766,"text":"其實我可以理解就是說我們核管法如果過了之後我們經濟部有能力比方說在一年左右的時間或者以內就能夠讓核電廠研議我可以這麼理解你的語言嗎這個還有另外一個我要跟委員報告因為我們因為過去的這個法令那5月17號你一定要下載那在這個情況下因為我們的鈾原料那個核電的那個原料棒原料棒基本上都是Telemed"},{"start":4413.546,"end":4434.277,"text":"都是定做的那你現在我們過去的量5月17號下下來大概我們的量大概就是5月底不會再多了所以我們要新的燃料棒過來大概還需要多少時間所以我下閘確認以後要一年多的檢驗各種確認沒問題了以後也許在那個時候"},{"start":4435.731,"end":4460.317,"text":"我們這邊可以做的一件事情就是說只要一通過那麼事實上我們就可以去訂這個燃料棒就是檢查認為說可以了我們訂盡量趕快去訂燃料棒但是跟委員報告就是我們所知道的現在的燃料棒因為那個是要不是一次訂一個規格每一支都不一樣的"},{"start":4462.558,"end":4481.466,"text":"所以要16到18個月要16到18個月所以說兩個部分把它綜合起來的時候就是說我們如果比方說雙軌進行同時檢查就是核電廠的部分然後同時去訂燃料棒我們最快的時間就是16到18個月才能夠重啟"},{"start":4483.152,"end":4509.805,"text":"這個是最理想的狀況 對不對不是那個設備檢查沒有問題然後我們又可以買到這個燃料棒這樣子我們就很清楚就是說就是我們核管法如果過了之後以經濟部最快的部分我們雙管齊下的時候同時檢查就是核電廠的狀態然後同時去訂新的燃料棒的時候我們最快綜合起來就16到18個月有可能"},{"start":4510.545,"end":4536.983,"text":"這可以重新發電最快的速度是這樣子嘛 對不對那我在想說我們當然還有 還缺一個啦因為這個核的發電的部分有一個所謂國際同儕審查啦是 理解 理解不是我們自己說OK就OK啦理解 理解這個也是行政的程序嘛所以說聽起來最客觀上的點最樂觀的數字可能是就16到18個月要重新訂核那個染料棒的問題 樂觀啦 樂觀"},{"start":4538.624,"end":4555.232,"text":"所以說它包括我們進一步國內的行政程序還有國際這邊的一個檢驗的部分的時候我們最快三個因素綜合起來就是核管法如果過之後我們能夠最快的時間就是16到18個月能夠重新再發展"},{"start":4556.532,"end":4577.517,"text":"發核電嘛對不對 你剛剛提這三個因素是這樣子那這沒問題啊 因為我在想說這至少就是有 台灣至少會有16到18個月左右的時間 其實是一個非核家園的一個狀態其實沒有核電的一個情況所以我們市長對所有的那個供電 所有的委員其實都擔心這段時間供電會不會有問題不會有問題嗎不會有問題 因為我們有這個大潭的7號7號機還有這個"},{"start":4584.326,"end":4597.857,"text":"是都有補啦 理解興達的1號、2號機都上來啦上來的量比那個河山下去的量要多很多對 那我今天我想請教一個因為就4月22號的時候我們大林那個5號那個"},{"start":4602.767,"end":4614.737,"text":"發電機要重新啟動那經濟部這邊當然講了一個情況是因為調度的狀態因為大陵五號機其實已經是一個廚藝的一個天然氣的發電機組那為什麼在這個時間點的時候又緊急去啟動它"},{"start":4620.945,"end":4640.454,"text":"報委員那個是基本上我剛才有跟大家報告我們政府所做所為一切都是在法律規定之內來做雖然它那個是備用的一個發電機組然後在啟動也是在法律的允許之內我們去啟動"},{"start":4641.735,"end":4666.535,"text":"理解你講這兩個點我覺得都沒有問題就是說在法令的允許因為它其實是屬於現在我們的一個緊急備用電力的設施因為它已經除以了所以算是一個緊急備用的電力設施那它原則上按照電力設施空氣污染物排放標準這樣的一個機制當中第二條第一項第11款裡面它有特別提到說"},{"start":4668.117,"end":4679.967,"text":"針對緊急備用電力設施的時候它是專用於供電系統跳電限電期間或其他為維護維持供電系統正常運轉這個部分所以事實上它有設定的時間那因為大齡"},{"start":4682.429,"end":4706.614,"text":"就是電廠的5號機組他除役了之後他去年也曾經緊急動用過一次那今年又緊急動用過一次所以我們事實上就擔心在整個的電的調度當中的時候是不是很吃緊才會把一個已經除役的大林5號機組又重新把它啟用起來可是請部長回答一下報告委員"},{"start":4707.335,"end":4722.796,"text":"那個是一個我們在假設的狀況它會重啟所以我們一定要維修那個機器可能要維修然後也要試運轉那是試運轉我們怕真正用的時候它轉不起來所以我們要試運轉好 那我想說這個部分因為"},{"start":4723.837,"end":4744.626,"text":"這跟我們台電公告的資料當中因為沒有特別講到私運轉那我想說如果確實是這樣子的時候那我們希望之後在公告所有的細節的時候能夠更精準一點就是不要造成民眾的誤會因為去年大零五號機也緊急動用過一次那今年又緊急動用過一次所以我們就想說哇 是不是電力很吃緊才會出現這樣的一個情況"},{"start":4746.907,"end":4768.34,"text":"我們會動用當然是在吃緊的狀況但是那一次不是吃緊那個是在Test running因為去年722也發生一次今年422又發生一次對啦 就是吃緊當然也是要因應吃緊所以有一些是模擬的狀況看到我們真的吃緊我們現在還是有我們那個有到8%日間有10% 夜間有7%"},{"start":4773.57,"end":4796.449,"text":"日間有10%然後夜間有7%的餘量這個各位可以打開台電的網站裡面都可以看得到我們現在的發電餘量有多少所以部長我在想說其實所有的委員跟整個經濟部跟所有的國人其實都擔心的是台灣供電夠不夠的問題所以我們一定是希望台灣的供電是夠的能夠一直符合產業上的一個需求"},{"start":4797.109,"end":4825.685,"text":"我們現在電是夠的但是比較可惜是我們缺的綠電我們綠電還要再趕還要再加強一下子所以說我們今天主席也特別安排了一個我們再生能源發展條例的一個一個詢答所以我最後就問一個問題就是說因為我們現在整個再生條例的一個部分這一次的一個修正當中有幾個點第一個就是很確定讓所有權能或管理人他要負擔起這個責任"},{"start":4826.685,"end":4849.643,"text":"那他如果沒有去做的時候到的時候沒有拆除的時候他可能會有一個罰款的一個問題那我想請教因為一般大型的這個光電廠大概都沒有問題基本上都可以符合那我擔心的其實是有一些屋頂型的因為這次也規範在這裡頭那屋頂型一般規模比較小那我想請教一下因為之前很多屋頂型的業者他在當時設這個"},{"start":4851.224,"end":4874.782,"text":"屋頂型太陽能面板的時候都被說服說第一個就是說可以省電嘛這是一個最基本的原則然後第二個就提到說他們其實可以隔熱然後可以防漏水所以如果時間到了應該要被強制拆除的時候那屋主他可能就是一般的老百姓他們不想要強制拆除想要繼續留著可不可以"},{"start":4875.803,"end":4877.124,"text":"每千瓦一千元"},{"start":4902.319,"end":4913.007,"text":"每千瓦1000元 這個部分現在是能源署這邊在收還是環境部在收法令規定是環境部 由能源署代收現在由環境部"},{"start":4915.459,"end":4932.021,"text":"包括能源署代收嘛環境部要求要成立一個回收基金對不對因為環境部的那個基金還沒有法源建立之前先由能源署代收到再生能源發展基金未來環境部有法源可以收的時候我們再把錢還給環境部"},{"start":4933.283,"end":4947.596,"text":"OK 理解那我就要問一個狀態就是說像比方說我們這個回收的這個款項這個模組的回收費用當中的時候含不含一般民眾因為你要拆除屋頂上的部分它有很高的一個成本"},{"start":4948.496,"end":4976.308,"text":"那拆除的費用算不算可以動用在這回收那模組回收的費用裡頭拆除是業者的責任要由業者負責拆除拆除後才由環境部這個基金來處理所以這表示說拆除的部分的時候對於很多民眾來說如果他是屋頂上行的時候他們得要自己去拆除對不對這個費用很大所以我在想說因為這是一般光電其實是20年到30年的問題"},{"start":4977.108,"end":4990.183,"text":"所以20年前設置的人其實跟30年之後他要去拆除的人其實可能是不一樣的人所以我們針對這個拆除的成本的部分有沒有可能在我們的回收模組當中給予一定的一個支持"},{"start":4991.507,"end":5020.206,"text":"基本上他可以繼續使用那未來如果壞了他也可以做維修但是如果最後壞掉要拆除的時候那要由裝置的人來負責那這個就看他跟當時太陽光電廠商有沒有去簽合約就是因為二三十年前的事情裝置的人可能跟現在的一個我們法定規定的負責的人已經不一樣了所以這邊就會有一個問題所以我們希望我們在立這個法的時候也能更細緻的去把這個部分考慮進來好不好"},{"start":5023.168,"end":5023.529,"text":"我們現在請鄭天才委員做詢問"},{"start":5047.382,"end":5072.408,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請部長還有能源署署長部長好 署長好 辛苦了今天談這個再生能源發展條例的條文修正我要談的主要是再生能源之中的低熱能"},{"start":5074.332,"end":5088.219,"text":"那地熱能指源自地表以下蘊含於土壤岩石蒸氣或溫泉之能源那我主要是談這個溫泉跟溫泉有關的這個地熱能這個"},{"start":5092.028,"end":5120.064,"text":"地熱電廠進駐部落原住民的部落這個相關的這些統計經濟部地熱裝置延命會的統計是全國有六成七在延鄉部落這個這樣的一個這麼大的比例延鄉已經出現翻天覆地的變化我們看這個台灣地圖我們看這個台灣地圖裡面"},{"start":5121.499,"end":5131.429,"text":"地熱能目前地熱發電案的這些六成七就在我們的鹽鄉部落"},{"start":5136.308,"end":5155.058,"text":"我們看再生能源發展條例第14條第二項設置再生能源發電設備與原住民族土地或部落及其周邊一定範圍內之公有土地者應依原住民族基本法第21條規定辦理這裡面談的是再生能源發電設備請問這個署長"},{"start":5160.342,"end":5178.434,"text":"所以那個起地熱的那個位置是就不算算 鑽井的地方是算的鑽井的地方跟發電的地方都是屬於發電設備的一部分現在就出現在這個研究法21條"},{"start":5180.885,"end":5203.21,"text":"因為這個當然跟經濟部沒有關係啊當時被這個誤解了這條條文啊因為這條條文是我在第八屆的時候提出來修正的所以不包含這個私有土地是其實是錯誤的這個當然跟你們沒有關係啊好再次認為發展條例第十五條之五"},{"start":5203.837,"end":5228.615,"text":"也規定申請地熱能探勘席可或開發席可之內容涉及這個原住民族土地或部落及其作為一定範圍內之公有土地者申請的應以申請前依研究法21條規定辦理所以這個探勘席可就包含這個就是地熱的那個位置嘛是吧包括鑽井的位置 鑽井的位置嘛"},{"start":5229.116,"end":5251.577,"text":"所以他不是只有在他那個那個那個廠房的地方嘛是是包含所以這個部分這個要把它釐清所以你們在在處理的時候因為你們核准都是你們嘛所以這個部分是要把它弄清楚因為基本上那個"},{"start":5253.548,"end":5277.961,"text":"溫泉,因為我講的是溫泉跟地熱因為地熱屬於溫泉,知道嗎?是地熱屬於溫泉所以這樣一個情形之下那個專井或是炭勘很少在私有土地,都是在公有土地基本上是這樣,所以這個部分在在這個審核的時候"},{"start":5280.83,"end":5307.231,"text":"務必要讓業者能夠了解接下來這是我們需要去努力的地方也希望朝這個方向等一下台灣我也給部長還有署長看在紐西蘭台灣跟紐西蘭差不多一樣大部分地熱都是在原住民族的土地上"},{"start":5308.92,"end":5329.124,"text":"所以這個紐西蘭一開始也是發生了很大的激烈抗爭紐西蘭政府因應這些地熱的開發所以他這個建立了一個夥伴關於信託模式股份的讓影所以紐西蘭地熱發電占比從7%攀升到20%所以他有這樣的一個"},{"start":5334.185,"end":5359.915,"text":"怎麼樣讓一個地熱開發能夠有效然後不要影響到我們原住民族的部落那當然就是要諮商同意那相關的這些開發的這些利益怎麼樣回饋給部落所以這個部分這個是我們要努力的地方然後怎麼樣去因應去修法這個都是有它的必要性"},{"start":5361.828,"end":5386.719,"text":"也有可以是不是可以直接試用我接下來看過去我在中央人民會服務的時候去協調同樣是經濟部的單位的水利署當時來我來看溫泉法第三條溫泉最後一句話溫泉的定義包含地熱蒸氣地熱"},{"start":5389.244,"end":5410.915,"text":"然後現在就是這個第八款溫泉使用事業指溫泉啟工事業溫泉啟工事業是第七款溫泉啟工事業是以啟得溫泉水錢或礦業錢提供自己或他人使用的事業溫泉使用事業指溫泉啟工事業獲得溫泉"},{"start":5412.955,"end":5441.05,"text":"作為地熱利用因為這個法不是農研署的法所以你們沒有接觸過所以我現在把這樣的一個法例讓署長 讓部長了解好 接下來溫泉法第11條當初我協調後來在立法院也三讀通過的條文這裡面就提到"},{"start":5444.424,"end":5471.692,"text":"像溫泉企工失業收起的溫泉使用費由經濟部訂然後第二項溫泉企用費除支付管理費用外應專攻溫泉資源保育所以要把這些溫泉企用費要提撥到原住民族綜合發展基金"},{"start":5472.717,"end":5490.929,"text":"作為原住民族發展經濟及文化產業之用所以這個部分怎麼樣在還沒有再生能源發展條例還沒有修之前是不是可以用這個條文因為現在正在開發嘛現在開始了所以這個部分"},{"start":5493.123,"end":5495.064,"text":"我們現在請李玉玲委員做詢答"},{"start":5529.363,"end":5529.804,"text":"您好 部長"},{"start":5542.582,"end":5566.404,"text":"這個會議起從一開始到現在我們針對美國對等關稅這個議題都一直是我們立法院這個詢答裡面最聚焦的一個焦點最重要就是因為美國對我們整個經濟體系的合作關係它的漠視而且對我們提高了整個關稅的問題那我們朝野不分黨派一定也會做我們"},{"start":5567.243,"end":5588.591,"text":"這個整個產業的依靠來協助他們度過這個難關所以在4月4號的時候我們提出了880億這個支持產業這個方案那部長這邊也有到地方去跟他們做一個關心傾聽之旅回來之後的話我們看到我們這次提出來的預算這個特別預算裡面有增加這個50億"},{"start":5590.656,"end":5612.568,"text":"總共不管是工業還是農業部加起來的話總共是930億這個部分但是整筆預算裡面我們看到了我們這次的特別預算是針對這個對等關稅這關稅的問題提出特別預算那這次特別預算的話從我們剛剛講到工業跟農業總共才930億但是他的特別預算是4100億"},{"start":5615.529,"end":5636.081,"text":"所以經過我們預算法的這個83條這個特別預算是經過這個像經濟非常有特別的這個變動變化的情形有的需要的話我們才會提出這個特別預算但是我們看到這一次的4100億的這個特別預算裡面有國土安全的就1500億"},{"start":5638.257,"end":5657.757,"text":"在這個培養人才就這個170億還有這個整個勞健保這個300億通通放進去如果這些都有需要的話一般行政的預算就是用追加就好了為什麼要放進去如果說像部長你特別講到的"},{"start":5659.06,"end":5685.031,"text":"這個我們這個要追加1000億給這台電這個也可以用追加預算不用放到特別預算裡面是不是你整個包裹的話就叫我們要跟你背書囉因為因為報告委員我可以講報告委員是這樣子我想你也很清楚發生這個關稅對等關稅的這個問題以後那我們雖然提出來第二天就提出來一個881億的這樣的一個預算的規模那個是針對"},{"start":5686.111,"end":5703.729,"text":"这个关税32%的情况之下造成的面对这个32%关税的时候我们采取的措施但是我们开始在访谈然后到每一个地方去跟业者座谈我们发现比我们想象的"},{"start":5705.988,"end":5727.381,"text":"第二波造成第二波的影響對產業我們是全力支持的你要加到950億我們都會支持對 報告委員我們的意思就是說產業然後它往外外溢的時候碰到一個新的我們沒有考慮到譬如說為什麼裡面有國防有社會安全的會員"},{"start":5728.562,"end":5750.527,"text":"我們後來發現美國一直加中國的這個關稅加到這個兩百多啦中國他不可能再賣到美國去但是中國那些東西會跑到哪裡去一定往這個亞洲外溢出來嘛外溢出來就會到台灣啊所以這個是我們所擔心的那個衝擊更大"},{"start":5752.438,"end":5775.045,"text":"那個衝擊非常大所以我們目前我們就是禁止傾銷禁止這個受到這個紅色供應鏈進到台灣洗產地這些都是我們必須要額外再發展一些這個費用需要防範的部分這個是更可怕的一個錢"},{"start":5776.55,"end":5789.369,"text":"然后第二个那一天讲说直接你们也一直在这个指导我们指教我们说不是只有直接那个苏美的厂商它的供应链厂商的供应链"},{"start":5792.173,"end":5804.877,"text":"所以產業我們都要轉型還是協助他們的設備要更新我們都可以包含進去只要針對產業的我們全力都支持不夠的我們再增加都可以那個是在930億裡面"},{"start":5806.938,"end":5823.365,"text":"但是他外溢到這個社會上面社會的安全照顧包括健保也算進去啦對包括為什麼把國土安全也算進去啦是包括委員因為這個以後啊有一些我們台商在中國的台商他會轉移他生產陣地"},{"start":5825.025,"end":5844.375,"text":"所以部長你的意思是說你認為4100億就是跟這對等關稅有關係而且也跟產業有關係那為什麼4100億我們看到關心產業的不到四分之一是不到四分之一你不能把其他的都包裹進來外溢的效應會比較大外溢的效應非常非常的大包括你要知道我們現在"},{"start":5851.639,"end":5864.473,"text":"就是像中國來講譬如說那個啤酒啤酒會大量傾銷到台灣來那你要協助哪一部分我們要防止它你協助哪一部分你還是協助產業嘛那你要協助產業對不對"},{"start":5867.576,"end":5880.063,"text":"我們要協助的不是只有對這個關稅部分我們要造成社會上面的動盪我們現在提的是特別預算必須符合我們預算法的83條你這些部分都可以用一般預算來追加"},{"start":5886.667,"end":5898.296,"text":"你要懂得預算法 所有一切都依法嘛不然剛才講的依法就是一個法啊這有法源依據的部分我們是依法 報告委員所以依法我才告訴你 這法放到這裡83條我知道的情況是這樣的 4100億我們都是用稅計盈餘來做的嘛因為去年超收了5723億元 包括你們的基底"},{"start":5913.249,"end":5917.765,"text":"有人在講說你最近有這麼多錢嘛那一人都發一萬"},{"start":5918.666,"end":5928.011,"text":"那是沒有辦法的人才這樣講嘛我們有辦法可以照顧全員因為受到這個官稅的動盪補發一萬塊是全民的你說全民的超收的稅金發給全民是合理的那現在碰到這個對等關稅我們就把這5723億做你的基底來協助產業不要外包其他無相關於產業的部分包產業度過這個危機"},{"start":5944.82,"end":5972.696,"text":"你要知道那個叫聯誼作用那個天壘然後它一波一波就要再一波好 你的天壘就好一切依法依我們的預算法一般行政部分你就一般行政部分用追加的部分你照預算法啊你不能包裹下去就大家跟你背書啊我們沒有包裹我是說這個關稅有影響的第二波第三波的當然有第二波第三波這就是本席要提醒你的你現在從把它包裹進來的話未來你看我們跟美國要這個"},{"start":5973.856,"end":5979.482,"text":"這個談判這個關稅的問題 五月底就要談了所以我提醒你 未來五月底的時候輪到我們跟美國在做這個磋商的時候如果美國還是繼續沒有放鬆這32%的關稅我們是不是繼續擴大 再變這個預算 特別預算"},{"start":5999.98,"end":6004.643,"text":"32%美國已經講說它是最高的最高的我們就用32%來推論五頁底的磋商它這32%沒有放鬆你要繼續來擴大對美國的採購跟投資擴大我們再繼續編特別預算嗎"},{"start":6028.459,"end":6033.683,"text":"沒有 我們現在所做的就是32%所以你說未來就算它沒有鬆綁那你也不會再繼續擴大來變略我們講過了嘛這個是到116年"},{"start":6043.495,"end":6059.366,"text":"116年的年底嘛好不好所以你說到116年你不再擴大編列特別預算來支援這個對等關稅你說的不是我編預算不是現在你說的嘛我的經濟部不是我不是這個"},{"start":6060.487,"end":6085.723,"text":"主席長我也不是行政院長欸你不能用這個問題來問我我說針對產業你不能用這個問題問我啦這超過我的權限啦所以我才說你們有需要的特別預算是針對對等關稅問我經濟部的部分問我經濟部的部分我來回答你好不好好 部長那我請問這次的特別預算是不是針對於美國的對等關稅才提出的特別預算我們經濟部就是針對美國對等關稅提出來的預算"},{"start":6088.524,"end":6097.632,"text":"所以現在4100億裡面都是包含在經濟部產業的需求嗎是需求嗎產業需求所以你認同4100億都是產業的需求很多的想法都是未雨綢繆未雨綢繆就像您在座談會也講說你們不要雨天收傘"},{"start":6108.607,"end":6129.422,"text":"對不對 所以照顧那個廠商嘛我們不預先說 類似這個樣子就是說先考慮到可能最差的狀況怎麼樣那我想行政院應該就是按照這樣第一波的影響可能930億但是第二波 第三波 第二波就是社會的影響所以我才說這4100億都要對我們產業的需求"},{"start":6132.918,"end":6149.86,"text":"提出來因為這個特別預算就是對於關稅的問題才有這特別預算不要無相關的把包裹進來這才是對產業解決他們的困難那個報告委員不是說對關稅一個名目上面的影響而是實質上"},{"start":6151.861,"end":6179.871,"text":"實質的產業需求所以你才去傾聽聽到有什麼沒有做到的部分我們要再來提出特別的預算再增加所以我們看到你只增加50億而已耶對不對所以其他部分的話都是比較不相關的因為那個時候啊第二天又改成說可以豁免90天嘛10% 90天嘛所以那個情境有不一樣我們是參考每一個階段的情境變異"},{"start":6180.971,"end":6204.229,"text":"做出來的推論是 因為你次次提出來的說你就用到116年3年的預算所以才特別說你要照預算法83條因為這個是這樣來編那一般的行政方面的話就用追加不要再這樣子再包括了影響沒有那麼久的話當然我們就不會用那些錢影響沒有那麼久沒有那麼大他就不會用"},{"start":6205.129,"end":6215.491,"text":"這影響有用到那麼多才才有用到好 希望你們把楊棟花刀口上謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝在本席質詢結束後休息五分鐘"},{"start":6235.317,"end":6253.941,"text":"請謝依鳳召委諮詢謝謝主席 我想要請郭部長 請郭部長委員好"},{"start":6255.081,"end":6275.089,"text":"國務長我認同你剛才說的行政單位是合法回歸你已經是行政單位的國務長不過剛才我們呂委員的題目很好但是這不是你的題目你現在你又不是行政院長你怎麼回答是不是你是行政院長了嗎現在"},{"start":6276.209,"end":6291.785,"text":"報告委員我想這一部分可能是我急了一點我不是行政院長所以我剛才有在講說我沒有辦法替代行政院長來回答這個問題我有後面有講我是說我經濟部的問題我可以回答"},{"start":6292.546,"end":6321.289,"text":"我現在的工作是經濟部部長所以我回答經濟部的問題但是委員剛才這個垂詢是行政院長的事情我只是說我們接到的這個指令就是說不是只有看目前的狀況而必須要考慮到未來可能造成第二波的影響或者第三波的影響我是就這樣來一個說明並沒有替代院長再回答這個問題我就要再澄清"},{"start":6322.01,"end":6324.137,"text":"我不會逾越我的職責"},{"start":6325.063,"end":6349.155,"text":"好 那我現在請教你喔這個是美國川普總統他所說的他在29號的時候宣布喔未來美國的汽車進口的關稅他不會是一個over all他會是一個over all而不是分別的就是說不會對對那個汽車製造商課20%的進口關稅或者是加上25%的這個鋼鋁的關稅我想要請問因為這個"},{"start":6354.237,"end":6367.491,"text":"变化的过程太快了那到底是怎么样子那你是不是能说明清楚这是你的问题啊而且这对于台湾汽车零组件产业的影响是什么是好还是不好"},{"start":6368.704,"end":6385.485,"text":"報告委員我想對於這個關稅到現在我們還都還在進行中那美國總統的這樣的改變其實我們認為說到目前為止大家可能都已經習慣了就是說到最後排版為止可能都有變化"},{"start":6386.306,"end":6403.788,"text":"那對我們台灣來講我們有做過幾個simulation我們有做過幾個這個這個所謂狀況的判斷那以目前來講因為我們台灣做這個汽車零組件我們分成兩種但是台灣比較強的其實在aftermarket"},{"start":6403.968,"end":6419.281,"text":"其实比较强是在超市所以这一个部分美国他现在要求说把这个零组件这个供应链可以再调降这个是他碰到的就是说这样子的话反而在美国制造的汽车"},{"start":6420.802,"end":6441.602,"text":"會比在美國以外的汽車要貴那變成說這個美國的消費者來講的話他們可能也不太能夠接受所以這個大概因為這樣子然後這個美國的汽車公司還有美國汽車領土建的公司他們可能也會去Lobby這個跟美國的政府來Lobby談這些事情"},{"start":6442.463,"end":6469.289,"text":"所以我想这个最后会造成什么样的影响我们还要静观其变不过对台湾的厂商来讲台湾大部分都是在aftermarket所以在aftermarket台湾有非常高的优势那我也去访谈过我们也座谈过非常多台湾的汽车零组件的厂商他们来讲说只要他们遇到的关税是立足点是平的"},{"start":6470.129,"end":6482.15,"text":"是大家一樣的他們永遠不會擔心但是如果說給別其他的國家那比較低的關稅那台灣是比較高的關稅這樣子對他們來講傷害就比較大"},{"start":6482.779,"end":6500.713,"text":"但是那你講到重點了現在我們看到了好像亞洲第一個國家要跟就是美國要談結果的可能是印度了那日韓都也在談判的這個過程當中了那我想要請問我們對跟美國這個關稅的談判什麼時候已經最終我們會不會調降"},{"start":6509.025,"end":6525.059,"text":"我們跟美國的談判是在進行中所以我們不會是最後談判的那個群裡面的人我們一定是領先群的談判群裡面的人"},{"start":6525.458,"end":6528.519,"text":"對我們來講我們在日韓之後談我們認為應該也有優勢別人談判的結果我們都可以去推論作為我們爭取對我們最有利的關稅來作為參考"},{"start":6547.168,"end":6575.719,"text":"就如同你所說的你知道說我們不能夠比其他國家的關稅還要高嗎但是我們有不同的產業有不同就是說競爭的國家那在這個情況下你怎麼樣子就是說我們怎麼樣子能夠說每一個我們都兼顧到那這個部分你怎麼處理以及我們看到了現在目前當然"},{"start":6576.559,"end":6595.868,"text":"美國不是唯一的市場啦對於台灣的這樣子的一個汽車領主權身為我國的經濟部長你怎麼樣子協助啊怎麼樣子協助產業啊怎麼樣子給予他們政策上的幫助啊讓他們可以走出去啊是不是是"},{"start":6597.288,"end":6624.893,"text":"報告委員我們現在採取的方式是第一個當碰到這個關稅實際碰到的這些衝擊的大概我們盤點出來有六個傳統產業我們現在第一步是針對這六個傳統產業增加它的競爭力然後降低它的作業成本我們透過AI的這個教導跟做EXCO來協助它降低成本這是我們目前在做的"},{"start":6625.694,"end":6646.944,"text":"第二個階段6月以後當美國這個豁免90天開始要結束的時候我們希望能夠幫助這些廠商移轉他的這個訂單能夠從新的這個市場包括歐洲的市場包括這個靠近歐洲的中東的這個市場"},{"start":6648.425,"end":6677.761,"text":"這就是我們在考慮印度的市場我們是幫助他們我知道能夠在市場上面能夠讓大家看得到所以我們的貿易署就開始準備了我們這個貿易署編的特別預算有100億有100億是幫助這個業者在國外取得新的訂單那這個新的訂單的話就像我在座談我一直講我們在新的訂單我們會用一個品牌的名字叫做台灣Taiwan Select"},{"start":6678.461,"end":6703.139,"text":"透過台灣Cellar這樣一個品牌把這個訂單帶回來以後交給我們經濟部所屬的20個機構由這20個機構來協助他們輔導的這個中小微企業下去製造這樣子那這個可以去中心化我相信在我們的輔導之下它的成本可以降然後我們又直接拿訂單那這樣子對他們來講更有競爭力"},{"start":6706.308,"end":6706.849,"text":"好 謝謝現在休息"},{"start":6736.817,"end":6739.599,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6758.948,"end":6761.591,"text":"就是如果台電還要再跟他們賣"},{"start":6787.902,"end":6788.342,"text":"自己找買家"},{"start":6804.625,"end":6808.948,"text":"那就是迴避之地,如果它不在裡面,包括那些燃燒燈,燃燒燈,燃燒燈,燃燒燈,燃燒燈"},{"start":6821.411,"end":6824.693,"text":"對,他在當事人,以及就要去當事人,當事人對,對,對,對,對,對,對,對"},{"start":6849.336,"end":6860.9,"text":"要按照電鍵的色澤去重新進行稍微褪色也要確認它那個膨脹的醜色一定要重來所以它一定要拆掉一半如果它要重量的話它要拆掉全部的膨脹"},{"start":6881.091,"end":6883.352,"text":"對,還有一雙,還有一雙,還有一雙,還有一雙,還有一雙,還有一雙,還有一雙,還有一雙"},{"start":6902.995,"end":6903.015,"text":"對阿"},{"start":6931.072,"end":6944.221,"text":"因為這兩年他要成本上漲所以他現在已經三塊多了是三塊多呢?是迴避成本迴避成本迴避成本不算在這個月所以是三塊多也都要上漲現在其實他已經變大了七年了七年了其實人家會把你的話撕裂了真的撕裂了然後反正你還要再跟我聊一次"},{"start":6956.87,"end":6967.538,"text":"沒有飛機的話,他可以賣啊,他也可以當習慣他的意思是,他明明可以用比較接近的,就可以用大量的"},{"start":6991.131,"end":6996.195,"text":"昨天那個韓國代表在美國提出一些東西是不是說是日本、韓國、臺灣都一起搞一個鎖定在英國、韓國、韓國、韓國、韓國、韓國、韓國、韓國、韓國"},{"start":7024.467,"end":7043.833,"text":"好休息結束了我們現在請蔡易瑜委員做詢問謝謝趙偉那我們是不是有請部長"},{"start":7048.477,"end":7056.506,"text":"吳院好 部長好"},{"start":7057.931,"end":7084.292,"text":"部長針對這一次的美國的一個對等關稅那當然台灣有相對應的措施所以行政院提出了這一個4100億的特別預算那這個特別預算裡面當然是由經濟部來做主責未來會由經濟部跟財政部來做聯席的一個審查那經濟部主責的大概就是在協助產業如何在這個時候第一個要安定第二個要幫他們"},{"start":7085.112,"end":7114.07,"text":"找到國際市場我想我們在過去幾次的諮詢我們都有講到那針對找協助產業去擴展他們的一個爭取海外訂單這件事那我們現在經濟部的具體做法我想請部長可不可以再說明一下是 報告委員我們大概因為這個關稅的問題造成台灣很多的這個中小微企業可能面臨在這個這個取單上面面臨到一個很大的窘境"},{"start":7114.99,"end":7130.33,"text":"所以我們現在經濟部的做法就是說我們用一個品牌的名字叫Taiwan Select這個來把這個中小的企業把它整合起來所以我們帶他們一起到這個海外去參展"},{"start":7131.55,"end":7151.828,"text":"不要再像過去 他們用兩個boost 三個boost 這個小小的boost然後去個別展 跟恰恰修一樣所以我們現在是用一個大的會館 台灣館台灣館來參展然後讓各個企業都在裡面 都在裡面讓我們幫助他們來取得這個訂單部長 我想你說的應該是比較大的範圍 如果是一個比較"},{"start":7155.491,"end":7179.468,"text":"大型的比方說機械展這可能就會有台灣館比方說整個類似的農機展類似這樣的概念但是有一些訂單的爭取那些展覽未必是那種大型的未必會變成台灣整體出去我們大概就是台灣一個品牌然後如果他的公司是比較中型的公司或者是比較比較有規模的公司我們就補貼"},{"start":7184.251,"end":7204.425,"text":"所以說到補助這塊我想跟部長來講因為我們現在這個補助的規定就是說大概我們是看他如果要出去參加展覽然後我們大概就是補助他多少攤位那目前現在大概就是一個攤位我們會補助他4萬塊那如果他增加一個攤位就再增加就給他增加5000塊"},{"start":7205.866,"end":7224.617,"text":"那上限就是六萬塊那我回答不斷地說,那裡處理展覽一個攤位,那真的很難看一個攤位小小的,大概就六到八這個平方公尺,六到八平方公尺所以通常有時候要處理可能都要拚三個攤位,四個攤位,讓人家覺得說哇,有這個陣仗做生意就是這樣,做生意你如果不把對面出來有時候那裡長大要催淚,那個誘因就比較不夠"},{"start":7233.883,"end":7245.721,"text":"所以我現在會說你如果用這樣一步走就是說你給他四萬塊 增加一個攤位五千塊可以想廠商要出去爭取訂單事實上他花費是很多"},{"start":7246.837,"end":7263.715,"text":"但是政府的補助力道看起來這樣小小的是 報告委員我想這一部分為什麼我們這次會增加到100億的預算這個也是這個院長跟這個總統在下鄉跟這個所有的業者座談的時候聽到大家的這個反應"},{"start":7264.495,"end":7277.202,"text":"所以我們特別編列了比較高的這個費用來補助啦基本上我們是要改變那個參展的型態啦我們像剛才委員在指教的這樣說兩個攤位、三個攤位太衰、太渺小所以我就把它整合變成一大部分都是台灣的"},{"start":7288.007,"end":7304.283,"text":"我裡面有各種應用的設施這樣的時候人家在看的人看到大嘛 說大就是美所以我們還會有現場的我們聘的人員我們聘的人員 翻譯的人員這都是經濟部"},{"start":7306.565,"end":7330.19,"text":"外貿協會或者是我們貿易署可以做的幫助他他就不用派那麼多人去好 我覺得這個方向都很好所以這個應該就是未來特別預算過後然後這個就要趕緊實施這個要請大院各位委員來協助我相信未來我們應該會跟在野黨也一樣大家一起趕快把這個4100億趕快給過不要拘泥在一些小節 大家要趕快給過"},{"start":7331.27,"end":7354.597,"text":"那我再具體建議啦 事實上我想跟部長說我們在這個補助參展 事實上我們應該做產業別甚至營業額來做一個區隔我想要說營業額 我覺得補充 這是我一個建議啦你要是要去外國拚國際競爭事實上如果沒有一定規模的公司 沒有那個能量"},{"start":7355.293,"end":7378.961,"text":"所以我意思是說,我們既然要打,是要打國際盃比如說我們在打棒球的時候,我們會不會是組台灣的一軍出去打最強的出力啊,你最強的出力,我每次都會拿大手回來我們最強的對外出力,我就打世界冠軍啊如果還在二軍的,可能就是他們的新調境所以我意思是說,如果這個產業的營業額越大"},{"start":7382.422,"end":7398.695,"text":"應該要給他更多的補助讓他更有能量代表台灣隊去去國際把訂單徵取回來部長你支持這樣做嗎報告委員我想委員的這些指正我們都會朝這個方向來考慮不過我們希望以大代小"},{"start":7399.636,"end":7407.285,"text":"不是只有大的出去這個俄軍的 我要出國去見識一下這樣也很好啊 是啊 是啊以大帶小 以大帶小 以大帶小我們都自己的前提 整合式啦這個大的你要給他 有那個動力啊我們就是整個 整個 各供應鏈以大帶小 好"},{"start":7417.256,"end":7444.798,"text":"那所以事實上我覺得這個補助企業參加參展這個事要趕快推動好不好強化然後第二個我想再請教一下因為我們這一次在因應這個關稅那我看到經濟部委事實上有講到了一個概念叫做要來推動從過去就一直在講的產業園區立體化那我想要問一下部長我們這一次的產業園區立體化我們的具體作為是什麼"},{"start":7445.768,"end":7448.731,"text":"我們產業園區具體化,基本上我們用容積獎勵,稍微大家的道路做寬一點,大家退縮一點,然後把原來的廠區我們可以朝高度上面去放寬"},{"start":7465.026,"end":7492.038,"text":"所以是農機有辦法再做一些放寬嘛對不對好那農機放寬的話我想要跟部長說新加坡因為他的土地就那一點點嘛所以新加坡在做他的產業園區的時候都用一個叫做垂直分區的概念這個垂直分區有一個叫做產業上樓有一個叫做生活上樓所以他們甚至說產業園區裡面也有住宅然後也有其他的辦公空間那是新加坡他們的模式沒辦法複製到我們"},{"start":7493.88,"end":7509.282,"text":"我們現在經濟部新設的產業園區我們在服務中心上面就會蓋這個宿舍跟生活所需的這個很好可是我現在要問的你剛剛講的大概是產惡啦"},{"start":7510.283,"end":7514.825,"text":"就是說那個辦公的空間我現在要說的是產業尤其是過去傳統的產業園區那有沒有辦法在這次的產業園區立體化也讓他們打破過去的一個限制"},{"start":7526.37,"end":7545.022,"text":"就比方說我嘉義有一個嘉泰產業園區嘉泰產業園區他是我們嘉義唯一的甲級的產業園區甲級的產業園區的土地非常的珍貴啊所以他根本就賣光光然後那裡的廠商他也找不到其他的其他的產業園區同樣有到甲級的資格啊"},{"start":7545.362,"end":7567.962,"text":"所以他們一個期待就是說如果材料園區立體化我們把我們現有的廠房我們就把它更新更新後給我們容積獎勵讓我們蓋高一點當然在符合所有建築法規蓋高一點的情況之下我的生產線可以有更寬裕的空間我覺得這倒是一個很好的方式啊是的 這個我們是朝這個方向在努力"},{"start":7568.322,"end":7593.783,"text":"好我覺得這方面經濟部趕快把辦法定出來然後有一個具體作為因為我們不是說每次都一直腦袋裡面只想著喔我要再開發新的產業園區我要在哪裡再開發新的不能這樣過去的產業園區我們還是要給他這一些獎勵他們在這個產業園區已經在這裡扎根這麼久如果他們可以透過立體化爭取容積率的話他們會把廠房提升"},{"start":7594.683,"end":7614.9,"text":"厂房提升甚至他们也可以导入绿能导入更多的东西进来我们会在今年内来公告实施这个部分这个很期待谢谢谢谢委员好谢谢我们现在请邱志伟委员做询答"},{"start":7628.953,"end":7650.992,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們先請經濟部郭部長郭部長委員好部長好 部長那個非核家園對我而言不只是一個理念也是一個信仰 更是法律規定"},{"start":7653.225,"end":7680.322,"text":"這不是任何一個黨的一個目標 或是一個黨的一個理念而是一個國家法律規定 我有什麼要說 環境基本法23條政府應制定計畫逐步達成非核家園 知道了嗎知道了嗎 是所以這是一個法律規定那現在大家都討論說核酸要研議"},{"start":7681.604,"end":7694.259,"text":"您個人我先問一個背景問題好了未來十年台灣缺電的可能性有多大未來十年我大概我們討論過了到2032年"},{"start":7697.383,"end":7714.22,"text":"2032就是未來七年目前的設施啦跟可以上來的2032年絕對沒有問題絕對不會有缺電的任何可能性這可能性趨近於零對不對我不能說百分之百這可能性趨近於零嘛是這樣子嗎"},{"start":7715.434,"end":7731.544,"text":"這個我們也就是說到2032年是絕對沒有問題那你要講到2035年後面那個三年我說2032年就為七年之內沒有缺電的問題沒有缺電的問題那你2032之後呢它那個包括再生能源"},{"start":7732.364,"end":7757.551,"text":"包括這個LNG 燃氣各種的這個再生能源都會慢慢的比例會越來越高對不對是我們需要投資的一定會降低嘛那也是我們目標所以這種情況之下2032年你說2032這7年之內絕對沒有缺電的問題對不對2032更沒有缺電的問題因為再生能源全部補上來了"},{"start":7762.56,"end":7787.516,"text":"我們現在是這樣 報告委員我們現在是再生能源我們是這樣到2030年我們所有的多元的電能裡面再生能源會從明年的20%到2030年的時候我們會升到30%也就是說再生能源增加主要是因為台灣的業者他需要綠色的能源"},{"start":7788.646,"end":7807.292,"text":"他需要綠色的能源基於這個綠色能源所以我們的再生能源會來到30%2030就30%所以我們明年要讓這個再生能源來到20%這就是屬於綠色能源所以您這麼贊成我覺得我請教您您這麼贊成核三營業呢您這麼贊成"},{"start":7812.591,"end":7819.256,"text":"我現在是經濟部長我是依法行事如果法令規定這個原意現在法令還沒有修嘛有政黨"},{"start":7827.867,"end":7854.881,"text":"有個人有立法委員有縣市所長希望核三原議我想請教您個人的意見您贊成核三原議嗎核三原議有三個原則啦三個原則啦就是安全無力成本時間嘛權源有共識核廢料可以處理如果這三個原則可以大家都可以同意的話我就去執行所以你有前提的支持"},{"start":7855.521,"end":7874.913,"text":"有條件的支持不是支持我是執行執行我有經濟部長嘛我個人看法你這三個條件這三個條件基本上都沒有辦法有共識你說核廢料這些主張要核三要研議的或者要重啟核能的"},{"start":7876.567,"end":7889.278,"text":"哪一個縣市所長哪一個立法委員哪一個民意代表他敢說他核廢掉放在我的選區放在我的縣市你有聽過有這樣的縣市所長有這樣的國會議員嗎他們有曾經表態過嗎沒有嘛對不對他說要支持核三要延誼核三要延誼你核廢掉要放在以零為貨嘛你懂我意思嗎"},{"start":7906.138,"end":7931.945,"text":"你敢說要核酸研疫,好,研疫,你核酸研疫我來處理,放在我這個館區,放在我的山谷,有人這樣說嗎?沒有人敢這樣說嘛!這樣就是政客,不管是館市長,或是任何政治人物啊,你的言行要一致啊!我看到這個,真讓人很煩惱,就是說政治人物言而無信,"},{"start":7933.32,"end":7958.639,"text":"現在我不說 過去說這個聲勢利潔 現在就全面反對過去是全力贊同的 現在是全面反對你看他很多這種人所以我是覺得河山這個問題 你要有立場我覺得你剛剛說的是你的立場 三個條件社會共識對不對 安全嘛 另外核廢料可以處理嘛"},{"start":7959.656,"end":7982.916,"text":"我這個是非常高的門檻這個不可能完整這個滿足是三項條件所以我可不可以再解讀你不支持河山演繹我還是依照這個三個原則在處理啦因為我是這個公務同仁我們的公務同仁也必須要依法依規然後來執行這些事情你是行政部門主管你當然要有的"},{"start":7984.766,"end":8005.802,"text":"經濟部主管 你要有一定的立場 你要有一定的態度我就是執行行政院的命令行政院的命令是什麼你修法 還沒有修法 但是你行政院要有態度啊一樣 這個不管有修法沒修法 我就執行行政院的命令我個人啦 只要我在立法院 我覺得是堅決反對"},{"start":8007.553,"end":8031.356,"text":"坚决反对而且我觉得这是国家法律规定不是个人信仰不是政党的目标另外这个汉祥是国家队汉祥也是经济部所属汉祥跟中科院有一些合约纠纷我觉得部里面要来处理一下"},{"start":8033.089,"end":8059.715,"text":"他那個關鍵的系統件沒有辦法交貨的原因當然不能歸則於漢祥不能歸則於漢祥所以因為全球產業鏈供應鏈中斷不可抗力因素而不是公司的個人管理的問題所以這樣中科院要給他發10.9億十幾億 十幾億對公司造成很大的影響經濟部主管的漢祥也是漢祥國家隊的隊長"},{"start":8062.742,"end":8090.227,"text":"這樣 我覺得喔 應該要跨部會協調不然你要了解 要跟國防部協調因為中科院 中科院應該是國防部吧你要了解這件事情 那麼你來協調幫我安詳這個問題好 我們來進行另外 過去有個施政農董事長啊其實在我的社會上每天 去一個海洋科學園去這部分啊 我最了解沒人比我更了解 我每天在那"},{"start":8092.456,"end":8113.61,"text":"所以海洋科學園區 它是他個人的想法那我是覺得啊 新南海是要轉型它沒有行李嘛 不動嘛 所以要專行那地還放在那 石壁都在那 樹木都在那那十幾公頃 不 二十公頃 地還有地"},{"start":8117.285,"end":8144.587,"text":"趕快起來差不多40公頃我也曾經請這個經濟部啊產業園區管理區召開這個會議我講什麼都很重要特別是針對這個海洋產業海洋科技海洋產業的科學園區很重要所以剛好這個機會新的海地可以轉型那沒有腹地又可以帶動地方的發展地方又有需求"},{"start":8146.229,"end":8167.872,"text":"又可以帶動協定湖內的發展所以這個要大力促成因為我的爭取之下包括北高雄產業園區包括白浦產業園區包括未來的鹿竹產業園區如果不是在那邊質詢這個三個園區不會從天上掉下來不會現在運行一定任何產業園區一定要大力爭取"},{"start":8168.493,"end":8188.717,"text":"所以我未來希望說海洋科學 海洋產業園區啊能夠在這邊落腳順便以協助新南海地的轉型我們朝這個方向來研議你們要有失聲表那進度要控管一下好 謝謝我們現在請賴瑞榮委員做巡檔"},{"start":8202.659,"end":8226.388,"text":"好 謝謝主席 請郭部長先請教一下 主席總署有公布了今年第一季的GDP的成長率5.37當然大家對這個數字上有很多不同的解讀部長怎麼看這樣的一個數字"},{"start":8227.588,"end":8250.716,"text":"這個我想這個本來就是大家預期這個川普總統這個上來以後可能會對關稅有一些要求所以大家可能在原來的這個比較低關稅的時候趕快出貨趕快出貨在美國的buyer也會有這種想法是所以這造成我們大概所以這個數字上第一季會有這樣的一個現象"},{"start":8252.256,"end":8280.459,"text":"對 但全年度的部分應該還是努力在以保三為目標啦我們現在大概看喔第二季大概也會有比較高的這個部分啦那第三季以後就不知道了就真正的這個關稅落零以後要看談判最後的結果啦對對對但是如果以目前的狀態我們應該還是努力在維持在三以上嘛我們希望是這樣目前的這個現在四月嘛四月結束了嘛今天五月一號我想四月份大概也都是三以上"},{"start":8280.919,"end":8306.072,"text":"都是這樣以上 對那如果加入政府的投入4100億的特別預算的話這個我想這個機會應該是相當的有機會的我們希望說今年還是能夠保持原來這個估計的這個這樣的一個部分去努力但是真正的這個最後談判的結果會造成什麼樣的影響現在目前還是這個很難去部長那預定談判時候什麼會出來什麼時候會出來預定"},{"start":8307.893,"end":8331.606,"text":"如果按照進度來講就是說第一批的這個75國應該都會在7月前談了一個大致啦因為他也不可能每一個國家都跟你談嘛那他大概是全面的幾個標竿的國家先談嘛談完以後後面就比照辦理我看川普應該也很急啦也希望盡快的談底定因為看到內部的"},{"start":8332.026,"end":8354.794,"text":"他太久的話大概對他的這個內部的影響也很大啦就看他美國今年的第一季也是不好嘛對對所以談太久了恐怕對他也有相當大的一個壓力所以我想這個應該會盡快來談完那我也請教一下因為我們的製造業的景氣其實2月3月也有了變動其實有段時間像2月幾乎爬到的是這個"},{"start":8356.875,"end":8371.372,"text":"黃紅燈啦齁其實相當不錯但是到了3月降到了黃藍燈齁啊這個當然我認為當然跟川普這些都有相關的一些影響動部長怎麼看是啊確實台灣的這個經濟受到美國的美國的這個關稅的影響確實是非常的大"},{"start":8372.401,"end":8391.805,"text":"所以這個燈號的部分也會受到景氣上的影響因為這個是所謂外部來的外部環境的變異所以我想這個是我們都會高度的關注這樣的變異未來的發展會造成什麼樣的現象我們期盼在跟美國的談判有一些好的結果之後對我們的景氣對我們的經濟成長力都有好的一些幫助跟影響"},{"start":8395.026,"end":8407.028,"text":"那再請教一下今天好像有人到經濟部去甚至有立委去那批評龐氏騙局部長怎麼看?是這樣嗎?這個我早上一大早就在這裡沒有進經濟部沒有看到這個現象那這個包圍經濟部這個這樣的一個活動如果是合法的"},{"start":8424.417,"end":8443.979,"text":"我們都尊重所有的這個國人的這個合法的行動如果是不合法的我們就要檢討為什麼他會採取不合法的這個行動那是不是龐氏騙局我對這個沒有研究那我問一下他裡面講的是他認為政府的現在能源政策是錯誤的部長認同這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":8447.004,"end":8471.693,"text":"這個就是我一直在講啦所謂正確或者錯誤是用什麼時間點來回顧那個情境啦不能講說你不喜歡的你就講它是錯誤啦那每一個時期都有那個時期的一些決策啦當然你現在來看我是不是想請教他說那你對流辮子清朝流辮子這件事情你認為是正確或者錯誤"},{"start":8472.955,"end":8488.857,"text":"是不是所以我們不能夠用現在來評論過去的這個這個是對的或者錯的不過我還是要強調在當下這樣的狀況下的時候非核家園還是入法的還是在朝野的一個共識下的所以政府當然依照相關的法令必須來執行嘛對不對沒錯"},{"start":8491.58,"end":8517.359,"text":"這個包括核能的部分核廢料處理也沒有達成共識嘛很多的那甚至於燃煤的部分大家也覺得燃煤空污要改善所以燃煤很多的很多縣市也都希望不要所以發展綠能這個方向是國家的趨勢也是正確的方向嘛所以我覺得不能夠把這些東西全部倒到最後來全部用簡單的一句說你現在是一個錯誤的能源政策我看不出來講那些錯誤能源政策你的能源政策是什麼"},{"start":8518.22,"end":8541.154,"text":"非核加鹽是一個國家的基因 這也是朝野的共識然後核廢料無法處理 確實也是個事實然後核能安全怎麼樣 國人安心 確實目前沒辦法提出一個所以在當下這個階段 這個就是目前的狀態那發展綠電也是目前的整個國家的政策 也是世界各國的政策啊所以我看不懂 這樣的批評跟這樣的評斷的時候 你是用什麼樣的利潤基礎來談的"},{"start":8542.735,"end":8564.038,"text":"每一個人就像每一個人吃東西一樣有他的口味一樣啦那要講出一番的那個就像講的這個黑的講久了不會變成白的啦那我也擔心的是這樣子不斷的去攻擊不斷的去攻擊能源政治好像就變成國家能源政治錯誤的那也請提出來那你具體可行能源政治是什麼這個我們會報告委員這個部分我們一定"},{"start":8564.138,"end":8593.494,"text":"我也澄清了要不斷地講我非常擔心三人成虎講了一百遍有可能講到後來就變成好像就是三人成虎嘛我想成語故事上面的三人成虎很擔心這樣子台灣講台灣獨裁講一百遍好像台灣真的變成獨裁了一樣就是我覺得這個這個是一個很錯誤的這個部分我們台電一定會同樣的一直講好像是能源政策好像圖利什麼什麼綠電圖利什麼什麼好像講久了講到後來變成好像是真的一樣全世界都在發展綠電如果哪邊有違法就抓出來嘛"},{"start":8594.454,"end":8618.239,"text":"我們認為就是大家依照法令的規定你認為違法就去提告我們就是按照這個法的規範下去處理嘛講一百遍有可能就變成讓大家模糊掉了啦所以我這個希望還是能源部要不斷的大力的去說明成績包括台電這幾年我們其實努力下空汙大幅的改善這也是很多人重視我很重視的啦從以前的時候我記得我90年前"},{"start":8619.159,"end":8646.357,"text":"當然例如說我一直盯著空污的數字因為發展綠電因為我們減少了這個燃煤所以我們的這個空污大幅的改善這對於南部對中部都很大很大的幫助這些絕對都是貢獻所以我覺得這些東西應該要去正面給予肯定那也有很多人不斷的在造謠說台電是因為非核政策而導致虧損部長要不要再澄清一次我們一定會再次澄清是因為"},{"start":8647.558,"end":8661.564,"text":"核能的這個能源政策造成台電的虧損了嗎完全不是啦我想這個裡面在這個邏輯上面有需要再導正的部分這個要持續的澄清因為核能最多的時候大概佔台灣的發電大概10%"},{"start":8666.152,"end":8673.436,"text":"這個10%到現在剩下3%你說3%我現在拿掉然後就會多大的影響這個我想這個3%會影響97%多少我真的就是無法想像"},{"start":8681.241,"end":8700.892,"text":"怎麼會用這樣來催促部長要大力的不斷的去澄清好不好虧損的問題不是這個造成虧損是因為我們過去的買的這個原料比較貴在因為戰爭的時候買的不是只有台灣買比較貴日本也貴這個韓國也貴這個我們鄰近的國家他們都買很貴而且他們的電價事實上"},{"start":8707.136,"end":8732.699,"text":"都比我們貴對 所以這才是根本的原因嘛你買進來的價格變貴了但是我們又不讓台電漲價 我們政治上希望不要漲價所以導致台電承受了這些嘛那我接下來問了 接下來我們也提出特別預算了在地方講的時候 很多人都講說希望支持台電不管是立委 或者地方的民代 甚至很多企業都希望支持台電我們現在又再次提出來一千億的一個撥補的部分部長"},{"start":8733.84,"end":8750.555,"text":"那如果最後一樣沒有在野黨或者在野黨的支持一樣沒辦法在立法院得到這個一千億的撥補的話會不會影響到接下來這個我們的電價的調漲的壓力報告委員我想電價調漲還是由電價審議委員會他們做決定啦"},{"start":8754.699,"end":8771.632,"text":"那他們會參考這個目前的這個狀況如果台電能夠忍受多久的財務的負債比已經達到九成了如果我們要馬兒不吃草又要馬兒好這個其實是有困難的所以我希望是"},{"start":8772.472,"end":8792.204,"text":"台電要穩健的經營如果是因為這樣而造成的那當然國家財政這幾年經濟成長率不錯有盈餘的時候由他來撥補我認為是最好的方案因為穩定電價也穩定物價是最好的方案對全民的影響是最低的也不會造成整個經濟上大的波動那如果遲遲的不給的時候台電當然勢必虧損會持續加大你又不給他漲電價他持續虧損持續會加大所以我們希望"},{"start":8796.927,"end":8825.291,"text":"部長強力的持續的去說明那我們希望朝野大家一起來努力這個台電是台灣的台電也是大家的台電那電力大家都希望穩定的供應剛講過的缺電沒有這樣的問題的時候我們希望更多人支持台電讓台電穩定的供電穩定的發電讓台灣的產業民生都能夠持續的有好的一個電力好不好希望持續加強溝通說明是是好謝謝謝謝部長好謝謝我們現在請宗嘉斌委員做詢答"},{"start":8837.942,"end":8866.918,"text":"主席在場的委員先進列席了總經理事長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們經濟部郭部長和能源署的李署長郭部長李署長委員好部長好署長好你看第一頁部長您是個企業家來自商業界商業上解決自己的問題和解決別人的問題最大的差別在哪裡"},{"start":8868.004,"end":8891.904,"text":"直覺反應商業上他想來我直接看看您答案對不對您要給我評題一下解決自己的問題要花錢解決別人的問題可以賺錢您同意嗎這個同意那這個誰很會做新加坡跟台灣都很會對不對新加坡跟台灣都不產石油啊結果我們都有很大規模的石化業您覺得誰的規模比較大新加坡跟台灣"},{"start":8896.385,"end":8922.413,"text":"新加坡 這個我不清楚 新加坡比較大這很特別嘛 那它是供應給誰呢 我們來看一下新加坡是世界三大煉油中心之一啊新加坡除了金融業跟觀光業之外 它的行業幫它賺最多錢因為它周邊有產油的馬來西亞跟印尼它透過填海遭遇涉熱大量的煉油廠最重要是什麼 麻六甲海峽呢世界上 哇所有的郵輪都要從那邊經過 是不是這樣好 那往下看 那"},{"start":8927.341,"end":8935.014,"text":"新加坡的燃料它是供應給船舶用它的石化業那你覺得台灣的石化業是做什麼的"},{"start":8936.966,"end":8959.955,"text":"是 那做下游產品嘛對 而且我們不是自己用 我們還出口對不對所以我們跟新加坡自己的船隊啊它在全世界只有占1.3% 1點點它煉那麼多的油都是給路過的船舶使用 賺人家的錢台灣的石化業進口那麼多的原油做出來的石化材料也不是自己用而已賣給別人 也賺別人錢 您同意嗎是好 往下看"},{"start":8960.595,"end":8986.288,"text":"所以新加坡跟台灣都有船 航運船隊那剛剛我說了嘛新加坡的船隊當然在自己那邊加油啊台灣的船隊會在哪裡加油 你覺得看他的航線吧看航線我們要看喔台灣的航運能力我們前貨運的十二大航商台灣佔了三名我們的運力快的市佔率在全球快了一成所以這個船隊是不是規模很龐大"},{"start":8988.192,"end":9017.544,"text":"很龐大嘛但是他在哪裡加油呢我可以賣個關子往下看現在為了降低碳排應用而生的氫能產業你覺得在台灣他除了發電工業製造還有運輸哪一方面需求最迫切我們往下看我再給你看一下台灣要降低碳排所以我們的氫能未來要供應給發電供應給製造供應給運輸運輸又有陸海空你覺得哪一個占比最高哪個需求最迫切"},{"start":9019.702,"end":9044.602,"text":"這個都在未來吧 現在氫能沒有那麼大氫能沒有那麼大 是我們要降低碳排那你覺得現在世界各國都在研究氫能怎麼樣來降低碳排要看成本了 報告委員我想這些東西 替代的能源是這樣的就是方法有很多但是就商業的考量來講我們還是要考慮那個成本是 除了看成本之外 成本會用什麼來做碳稅就是一種成本 我們往下看其實呢 在運輸的領域當中"},{"start":9046.543,"end":9075.007,"text":"陸海空現在對氫能需求最陰氣的是航運我們往下看IMO是國際海事組織它已經規定了為了降低溫室氣體排放在2028年開始如果你的船舶用有沒有用低碳燃料可以用課100美金到380美金的額外的碳稅所以部長你說對了嘛是不是價格出來了如果你不是用低碳燃料你就會被課碳稅嘛同意嗎所以你覺得航運是不是很迫切需要使用低碳燃料"},{"start":9078.617,"end":9103.108,"text":"所以低碳燃料目前對我們航運的衝擊是什麼長榮他去年買了24艘假存的雙燃料未來他會再訂11艘24000噸的LNG的雙燃料連萬海都要用生質燃油導入那剛剛講了航運就都看很遠一艘船訂下去要用二三十年雖然是未來的事情現在就開始做準備是不是應該要這樣做企業家是不是要這樣做"},{"start":9104.249,"end":9128.452,"text":"是嗎 好 往下看但是剛剛揭曉了 我們關谷的陽明海運呢它到哪裡去加低碳燃料 到韓國啊 您說的沒有錯氫對台灣來講 它是一個進口的 價格也比較貴所以我們的船隊 自家船隊要用的油 低碳燃料要到別的國家去加台灣有沒有加注生質燃油的能力 署長有沒有"},{"start":9129.875,"end":9145.334,"text":"台灣可以生產生殖染料有這個生產的能力但是目前我們像現在那個玉米玉米都可以來做生殖染料但是目前有沒有供應給我們傳播用呢因為市場太小我們台灣這個市場"},{"start":9147.831,"end":9171.443,"text":"市場怎麼那麼小現在全世界的航運公司2028年要面對100到380美金對一個大的製造廠來講我講的不是工業製造我講的是船舶燃料往下看所以未來為了滿足IMO的溫體的排放所以台灣要思考有沒有可能幫這個船隊經過台灣海峽的船隊佔五分之一的世界航運量"},{"start":9172.236,"end":9180.696,"text":"我們國家的船隊佔十分之一的航運量這些船舶有沒有可能在台灣加注低碳燃料這是不是一個市場部長你認為這是不是一個市場"},{"start":9182.839,"end":9210.365,"text":"就我商業的看法啦就是通過台灣海峽來台灣加油的這個機率不高因為它要加低碳燃料嘛所以我的意思就是說其實我們高雄港來高雄港然後來轉運高雄港變成一個大型的轉運中心的時候那在這個地方加油這才有機會啦是的 沒有錯所以您說的沒有錯如果是在這邊有吞吐它跟新加坡的馬六甲海峽有吞吐的時候它會同時加注燃料"},{"start":9210.905,"end":9238.379,"text":"所以他說的是說其實在我們思考輕能產業的時候不要只有經濟部思考說用來替代我們的LNG的火力發電的燃料要思考到說舉例講啦有人說不要為了喝一杯牛奶去養一頭牛對不對但是如果你家有個小牧場你可以跟大牧場批很多原乳來加工成鮮乳賣給全社區的人所以台灣有沒有綠能 有嘛"},{"start":9239.281,"end":9261.809,"text":"有沒有風電 有嘛 有沒有光電 有嘛 但是車子就不夠了 這些電呢 直接供應電力供應都來不及了有沒有可能去煉傳播燃料 不可能但是我們如果有這個技術 我們可以進國外類似原料的氫原料煉製成傳播要用的低碳多元燃料 你覺得有沒有可能這樣做"},{"start":9263.021,"end":9289.511,"text":"這都有可能啦商業模式都可以發展是的所以就是因為是未來的模式所以拜託您發展往下看最後結論因為我國的港區跟我國的船隊規模有提供多元低碳燃料家族的業務所以請經濟部研究一下國營事業包括台灣中油有沒有帶動民間產業煉製及供應港區多元低碳燃料的可能性可不可以去請能源署評估一下是我們可以評估那我當然我昨天也問過交通部長了"},{"start":9290.091,"end":9317.543,"text":"未來如果要對我們的港區的船舶提供多元低碳燃料也要專用的管路跟儲槽這個就是交通部的事情了所以最後我要請經濟部還有能源署跟台電和中油本席將會召開公聽會我會請交通部跟經濟部共同來研究氫能產業除了在台灣除了經濟部取代陸運的汽車用汽油氫能代替汽油用這個"},{"start":9319.196,"end":9331.688,"text":"輕能代替LNG的發電之外有沒有可能鎖定船舶燃料這個檜面來把台灣打造成一個類似新加坡為我們國際航運的船舶加注多元地毯燃料的可能性"},{"start":9332.443,"end":9354.646,"text":"署長你要不要補充一下我們來研究啦我要跟委員報告所有的事情其實最後還是成本來做決定是的所以就是碳定價的問題如果說今天我們經濟部有辦法評估2030或2035年我們可以提供一個什麼樣的低碳燃料的定價那交通部就會告訴你"},{"start":9355.433,"end":9371.541,"text":"這樣的定價的低碳燃料我的船舶需要多少的量你就可以去規劃產生這樣的低碳燃料的一個建置規模交通部也可以去規劃供應這樣的低碳燃料給船舶的一個港部設施這樣的一個建議你會不會去評估我們來評估啦好 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請楊求英委員做詢答"},{"start":9386.515,"end":9390.152,"text":"謝謝主席 陽泉發言 邀請部長郭部長"},{"start":9398.496,"end":9401.96,"text":"最近電價議題引發了討論請問電價長不長到底是誰可以決定電價審議委員但是我沒有看到過去你們都這麼說都告訴我這麼說是電價審議委員但是呢"},{"start":9417.759,"end":9426.205,"text":"我們看到賴總統行政院最近都接力的說撥補了一千億就可以不調電價請問這不就代表著電價調漲是政府在背後決定嗎報告委員"},{"start":9436.243,"end":9455.718,"text":"我們是可以把我們的情況跟未來發展的我們改善他的財務情形然後讓委員去做決定委員是獨立的當然這是之前部長一直告訴我的是由電價委員會來做決定我也建請你將我們所討論的內容給電價評議委員會審議委員會但是總統先生這麼說"},{"start":9462.503,"end":9477.992,"text":"行政院這麼說他們說了算了嗎是嗎不是 報告委員是這樣子總統當然他了解非常大的狀況今天台電因為財務的狀況導致於他疲於奔命為什麼"},{"start":9478.832,"end":9492.22,"text":"他已經90%負債了所以總統先生說的你聽不聽如果說這個撥補了1000億就可以不調漲電價你會照著他所說的去執行之嗎我們大概這個是一個邏輯的評論一個邏輯的評論"},{"start":9495.481,"end":9515.193,"text":"總統邏輯的評論一千億下去那麼可以改善他的財務那麼我們也會建請所有的審議委員他們是不是可以朝著不漲價的方向來考量所以您現在所說的總統先生我們在媒體上看到的是說他是一個邏輯的評論"},{"start":9517.634,"end":9522.076,"text":"是嗎他只是這樣講嘛他只是這樣講所以不是真的不是撥補一千億就不會漲價是嗎那個委員你不能這樣子講不然怎麼說呢請做說明總統講的時候那個情境只是告訴大家嘛我今天撥補一千億那我大概啊這個方式啊可以讓台電在將來再考慮要不要這個重新調整價格的時候可以考慮是不是不漲價"},{"start":9545.568,"end":9563.024,"text":"所以還是問號還不是決定號所以本期要請教這一次的預算特別預算裡頭4100億當中我們也有行政院也包括要撥補台電1000億元這就是剛剛我們所討論的如果你可以說撥補了1000億你就不漲價當然我們有討論的空間"},{"start":9567.867,"end":9581.352,"text":"你點頭你點頭那所以本家要請教我是同意你現在講話喔我怎麼很怕你如果我點頭你就說我同意不是啊我們兩個在尋答嗎要講清楚吧所以總統今天這麼說我也要請你說明清楚啊對不對請說明不是啊那你現在"},{"start":9586.54,"end":9608.335,"text":"說我點頭的這件事情我只是呼應你剛才在講的這一句話非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常好啊 呼應對啊非常"},{"start":9615.299,"end":9629.844,"text":"不要變成財務的黑洞那當然有討論的空間嘛那所以本期要告訴你因為以前我們已經砸了3000億來撥補那店家又多次的這個調漲民生的部分統計大概是40%"},{"start":9631.104,"end":9654.15,"text":"所以到現在還是虧損繼續跟人民這個繼續要漲價啊所以在這樣子的話之下證明我們真正的原因是我們的能源政策它的來源它的來源才是最重要的根基啊報告委員我們大家都很清楚台灣的能源是多元的能源"},{"start":9655.086,"end":9670.545,"text":"各種能源我們能夠用的我們都用好部長你講的這個就非常好我們能夠用的我們都要用但是我們能夠用的本席告訴你我們廢核把核電平均最低的1.12元成本最低的要廢掉不用"},{"start":9671.326,"end":9696.483,"text":"煤跟氣的一個發電成本是2.5塊到3塊左右你像開發商所買的風、光、電是5塊到6塊半這也就是您所說的各種能源我們都需要用但是我們就是有學者來支出我們統計的這個數字說去年購入火力發電跟風、光、電的這個額外支出那就會加總又超過了600億"},{"start":9697.964,"end":9710.613,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下本席要請教我們現在再生能源的發展跟不上你電力的這個需求嘛所以你必須要買你必須要買這是你虧損的主要原因啊我們要怎麼樣去調整要怎麼樣去調整我們目前政府"},{"start":9719.159,"end":9736.154,"text":"又貴又錯又缺的這個能源政策啊我們要怎樣去調整我告訴你在你回答之前81%的是這個化石的這個材料因為它是因為過去的漲價導致於我們在成本上面的高啦"},{"start":9736.374,"end":9739.275,"text":"對 所以部長你這麼說就是本席繼續要跟你討論的台電自己本身所提出的財務改善計畫他特別說了實話他說就算你3000億萬再撥補2000億2026年到2027年他一樣會虧損"},{"start":9753.499,"end":9778.922,"text":"因為台電說他沒有辦法單靠自身努力去達到損益兩平而且他還具體建議如果燃料成本波動可考量適度的調整民生電價或政府持續的補助民生用電這是台電自己所提出的財務的一個報告所以看到這些本席要請教"},{"start":9780.023,"end":9784.667,"text":"撥補完還要漲價 漲價完還要再撥補那這怎麼辦呢北京絕對據實的要求不能把人民當為是體管機這一點非常重要 你們應該要從你的能源政策真正的去探討這才是重點啊 部長 您請說明"},{"start":9802.384,"end":9820.581,"text":"報告委員我想你們的這個指教我們都會參考我們也會去檢討為什麼他會這樣子說他到這個2026年27年還是虧損那我們會檢討他在上面的報告的內容到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":9822.196,"end":9841.037,"text":"部長 這是台電自己本身所提出的報告也就是他們真正所需要的所以你經濟部應該要好好的去協助他們你必須釜底抽薪 從能源政策去檢討啊要不然你告訴我們說總統先生所說的 你認為他是一個評論"},{"start":9842.952,"end":9851.663,"text":"那人民到底要依靠什麼要依靠什麼原本大家還講你如果真的撥補了1000億就不會漲價你可以答應我們嗎你可以答應我們嗎如果我有這個權利的話"},{"start":9858.547,"end":9871.446,"text":"你是部長啊你沒有這個權利啊所以本席本來要問你如果撥補了一千億你要答應我們不漲價是一年半年還多少年你告訴我你沒有這個權利那我們民眾要怎麼辦呢這個漲不漲價是"},{"start":9874.75,"end":9885.679,"text":"這個電價審議委員會的權利嘛我怎麼可能是好 那這個議題我也希望你來反映民眾不可以當為提款機你們必須要真正的從能源的根據去討論那最後一個議題喔我要請問我們說要購買SMR"},{"start":9891.244,"end":9916.313,"text":"那我也聽到你的專訪 我很歡喜因為我們採開放的態度所以本學要請教 未來不排除採購小型模組化的這個反應爐SMR那我們目前的政府 您說我們有在做規劃 有在推動這個技術請教目前的進度規劃如何呢那我們是不是代表著政府不再堅持非核家園 請教"},{"start":9917.598,"end":9938.107,"text":"報告委員我們講過了對新的科技的能源新的科技的這個能源科技我們並沒有排除基本上在這個它是安全的它是核廢料可以處理的那麼人民有共識在這個三個前提之下我們都歡迎討論所以目前我們您所專訪所提出的SMR我們確實有在規劃"},{"start":9940.114,"end":9956.321,"text":"我們有在我們有在討論這個議題我們也希望有一個方向也可以告訴我們但是本席要告訴你因為每一次討論到這個議題也就是環境基本法23條本席也有提案也就是逐步達成非核家園改成淨零碳排的目標你同意吧"},{"start":9961.226,"end":9990.515,"text":"方向應該是這個我們如果是這個立法院的決議我們當然一定要尊重好所以如果這個法案通過也就是換句話說取消非核家園那麼您是支持的那本席也希望大家一起來支持因為目前我們必須跟世界來接軌也就是說環境基本法是一個關鍵者所以本席再請教您既然支持這個方向本席也有提案很多的委員也有提案那請教行政院會提案嗎"},{"start":9991.335,"end":10004.751,"text":"因為你這個版如果沒有改你其他的開放台度都沒有辦法落實只要大院通過的大院通過的我們當然可以尊重啊你會執行嗎行政院版會提出嗎這個跟"},{"start":10010.916,"end":10038.504,"text":"那是環境部的事情 不是經濟部的事情所以本席問你啊 行政院本啊我是經濟部長你是經濟部長 當然你要參與其中你不要用事為理由來對不對 你要參與其中去了解啊這個是政府橫向組織非常重要所以您剛才回答一句話 也就是說如果立法院通過 你會遵循之我依法依規 我一定要遵循好 謝謝 我們一起加油好 謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":10041.087,"end":10064.803,"text":"好 謝謝現在請何新淳委員做詢答何新淳委員何新淳委員不在現在請黃國昌委員做詢答謝謝主席 是嗎 有請部長"},{"start":10074.352,"end":10100.261,"text":"委員好部長好針對台灣民眾黨立法院黨團所提出來核三演繹的公投你日前在接受媒體訪問的時候你說這很簡單只要修法不需要公投我相信那個直播應該有忠實傳達部長的意思那不過我還想再確定一下第一個是所以部長你的意思是只要修法通過行政部門會執行核三的演繹嗎"},{"start":10101.468,"end":10118.773,"text":"我的意思是你只要通過這個法是然後呢我在這個法的框架之下是我應該執行的任務是我不會這個退卻所以你還是沒有回答我的問題法修過只是幫你們研議除去法規上面的障礙嗎這個是確定的事情但是"},{"start":10119.963,"end":10135.708,"text":"立法者可以幫你們除去法規上的障礙障礙除去掉以後要不要核三研議這件事情權力還是在行政部門手上那為了慎重起見所以我才請教部長您的意思是只要法修正通過了以後行政部門會推動核三研議嗎"},{"start":10136.837,"end":10160.788,"text":"報告委員我想是這個樣子這個法通過了那經濟部是不是可以獨立來執行這個法我想我經濟部可能沒有那麼大的這個權限沒關係你就代表經濟部發言就好了我代表經濟部我是經濟部長我當然是代表經濟部發言所以我一定是行政院這個是行政院的這個職責行政院有要求我們執行的時候我們一定會執行"},{"start":10163.709,"end":10176.211,"text":"好那現在下一個問題公投通過了以後你覺得行政院要不要執行這個公投通過了以後行政院要不要執行行政院會有判斷行政院會判斷依法行政院可以判斷嗎"},{"start":10178.686,"end":10200.817,"text":"依法行政院可以判斷嗎公投通過了以後行政院還有判斷餘地嗎行政院還可以自己判斷說人民公投的結果出來了以後行政院還可以自己判斷要不要執行公投的結果行政院有這個權利嗎我不是行政院長所以我也不知道其實你不需要是行政院院長就可以知道因為公民投票法裡面上面已經規範得非常清楚了嘛是"},{"start":10201.482,"end":10212.277,"text":"公民投票法規範有關於重大政策公投通過了以後就應該由總統或權責機關來實現嘛那否則的話我們公民投票法是定好玩的嗎"},{"start":10213.755,"end":10241.713,"text":"所以從這個觀點上面來講我們立法院幫你們除去法規上面的障礙行政院要不要往前再慢一步這件事情你說你是經濟部長沒有辦法代表行政院院長發言這個我尊重但問題是我要提醒的是什麼我要提醒的是依照公民投票法的規定這種重大政策的公民投票通過了以後總統或行政權責機關就要執行這個是法律明確的規定這是法律明確的規定"},{"start":10242.915,"end":10271.321,"text":"到時候行政部門就沒有選擇餘地了當然當然嘛我們同意啊那如果是這個樣子的話你覺得這公投有沒有意義還是沒意義嗎這公投意義非常的大啊公投通過行政部門就要執行啊跟單純的立法部門除去掉法規範的障礙以後行政院要不要執行行政院還可以做決定兩個法律狀態完全不一樣啊我有說錯嗎這法律的部分我已經"},{"start":10272.369,"end":10300.48,"text":"我尊重那個委員你的這個好 沒有關係第二個部分我上次請教卓榮泰說2025再生人員達到20%大概這個是確定跳票了啦現在賴清德總統他希望能夠達成的目標是2026年年底以前再生人員達到20%嘛這在媒體上面講了非常多次了我去年請教卓榮泰的時候目標啦 大家都會喊"},{"start":10301.34,"end":10324.09,"text":"目標大家都會喊怎麼樣達到那個目標的路徑才是重要的事情但很遺憾可能是卓榮他去年剛上台我問他這個問題的時候他一問三不知我事後也給行政院包括經濟部補交作業的機會來我先請教一下部長2024年年底我們再生能源的占比達到了百分之多少"},{"start":10329.332,"end":10358.417,"text":"去年是11.5去年是11.5嘛其實具體的數字應該是11.6啦我為什麼敢這樣講來我秀給部長看因為呢這個是行政院的施政報告在今年到立法院來的施政報告他講的是11.6我相信施政報告上面寫的數字是正確的啦但是去年年底的時候你是不是知道經濟部所提給我的報告到2024年的時候你們的預估是達到百分之多少"},{"start":10360.68,"end":10382.658,"text":"這上面寫12.312.3所以從今年行政院院長所提出來的報告到去年你們年底的時候所給我的預估清楚的看得出來我們再生能源占比整個進度是落後的本來你們預估是12.3結果實際上面只有11.6現實上面的狀況是這個樣子好來蔡英文她在"},{"start":10388.567,"end":10399.131,"text":"之前2025再生人員20票票了嘛那現在賴清德心喊的是再生人員2026會達到20%達得到嗎我們在努力在努力嘛你們經濟部給我的報告預估是達到多少你知道嗎這白紙黑字啊這個都有經濟部給我的資料啊上面寫上面寫18.9啊"},{"start":10416.055,"end":10434.939,"text":"上面寫18.9所以連你們經濟部的報告我分兩個層次講第一個經濟部的報告事實上你們的預測跟實際的進度比起來你們的預測已經過度樂觀了第二個我即使按照你們自己所提出來的預測到2026年年底一樣不會達到20%對不對是吧"},{"start":10440.353,"end":10453.731,"text":"我們現在在努力嘛現在在努力嘛那針對有關於2026要達標的這件事情經濟部現在有鑒於過去的評估已經失準了嗎現在還有沒有在做新的評估出來"},{"start":10454.824,"end":10483.595,"text":"我們從各個太陽能、離岸風險、地熱、小水利全部把它加起來然後我們現在重新的訂目標重新去整合我們管理的模式改變希望2026年能達到2028年包括你那個管理的模式最新的數據出來了嗎因為從你去年11月給我的數據到今天的角度上面來看就完全失準了嗎"},{"start":10484.315,"end":10498.827,"text":"那你剛剛有講你們重新有管理模式重新訂目標全部都要加起來非常的好這些新的數據新的預估可以提供嗎我們來做這個報告給你可以嗎好謝謝謝謝我們現在請羅廷瑞委員做詢答"},{"start":10517.622,"end":10544.466,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉有請部長郭部長有嗎好 部長我們看一下照片部長你知道今天氣候先鋒者發起人楊家法也是台電員工帶著台電員工將近百位在經濟部剛剛抗議您知道這件事嗎"},{"start":10547.273,"end":10552.966,"text":"這個我有收到報告那您知道他們的訴求嗎我今天早上還沒有到經濟部那您知道他們的訴求嗎"},{"start":10554.493,"end":10581.405,"text":"知道他們的訴求嗎不清楚好第一個他們都認為現階段台電並沒有公開透明並沒有負起責任並且相關的政策是大量的虧錢他其中就舉到一個人事開銷你們說一年遵截了4億但是錯誤的能源政策4天就燒掉了9億"},{"start":10583.442,"end":10598.476,"text":"部長他們今天所有人的訴求在經濟部在你的經濟部面前在這邊抗議你有沒有要回應一下報告委員我想這個一個團體裡面我們台電大概有3萬個員工"},{"start":10600.868,"end":10628.11,"text":"那他一百多個人是不是都是我們台電的我也不太清楚我剛剛有特別確認他跟我講他今天同仁至少至少一百位是台電的同仁不是路人嘉義秉丁但是你要跟我講三萬個人然後只有一百個人到現場他是少數的意思嗎那難道我們所有的其他的公民團體抗議他就不能夠代表他們一定的聲音嗎"},{"start":10629.175,"end":10645.816,"text":"他是不是代表一定的聲音或者是他只是自己個人的聲音我不太清楚一百個員工就是一股力量一股聲音嘛那我今天就是說他們的訴求我們的員工有三萬人但是你不能說你有三萬人他就是少數所以他的聲音不重要是嗎"},{"start":10646.297,"end":10658.529,"text":"我不是說他不重要不重要是你說的所以你不需要跟我講你台電員工有沒有三萬人今天重點是有一群台電的員工他們願意站出來願意表達他們的心聲他們是現職的員工但是他們不為這些強勢他們願意站出來我想問你的是你願不願意回應他們嗎"},{"start":10669.073,"end":10694.52,"text":"回應什麼啊 我不知道他在問訴求什麼對不起 我剛剛跟你講的時候你在旁邊跟人家聊天啊第一 他說你們說整節開銷將人事資料他們的所謂的人事開銷一年省了4億但是錯誤的能源政策四天燒掉9億他是台電人 他看不下去整個錯誤的能源政策讓台電面臨巨大的虧損您怎麼回應 是嗎"},{"start":10698.001,"end":10705.084,"text":"那你覺得台電是賺錢喔?台電賺大錢喔?那如果台電是賺大錢,現在還需要虧本嗎?你認為是他講的,這是道德網的虧損嗎?所以你認為是賺錢?沒有沒有說他是賺錢,但是你認為他是虧損喔?這是他們目前講出來的數據您到現在只是要跟我在那邊鬥嘴,沒有意義啊我說他現在提出的數據,您可不可以回應?"},{"start":10723.991,"end":10733.797,"text":"您認為呢我不知道要回應什麼他說虧錢錯誤的能源政策虧錢有很多種原因不能講這個事情是什麼能源政策他是專家嗎"},{"start":10735.52,"end":10751.575,"text":"他是第一線實際在台電上班的員工看不下去啊那請問一下您這樣講那您是專家嗎他看不下去那您是專家嗎不好意思他看不下去您是專家嗎對不對看不下去你講這句話我就要問你現階段你說請他離開你會不會秋後算帳"},{"start":10756.679,"end":10765.183,"text":"這些人為了自己的心聲為了全國百姓的聲音出來你說你請他離開你是不是要秋後算帳這是你講的那你為什麼要請他離開這是你講的你為什麼要在這一個國會電台裡面講說請他離開你要就事實來論述你不能夠隨便亂講啊"},{"start":10777.828,"end":10781.212,"text":"今天我是轉述這些團體他們的生意你現在就是覺得他們人數少看不起他們嗎"},{"start":10792.705,"end":10814.173,"text":"你知道我們一年有多少營業額嗎你都不就我剛剛問的問題來回答第一我說他們的心聲是這樣你願不願意回答你一下說他是專家嗎你一下說他是1.3%的人你現階段你又在剛剛回答說那他可以離開啊所以我要問的第二個問題你現在會不會秋後算帳這些人"},{"start":10815.287,"end":10839.424,"text":"我為什麼要邱鶴擅長因為看起來你剛剛態度就是很強硬所以你被請他們離開啊看我的態度跟我看你的態度也都差不多吧那你怎麼可以在國會電台這邊請人家離開國會議員 郭部長我們現在不要動氣好不好是你在講的嘛我們調回剛剛的事實嘛你剛剛說他不高興他可以離開啊他當然啦 我們沒有要求他說你這個不可以離開啊"},{"start":10841.172,"end":10858.675,"text":"你這種態度就是漠視這些發聲的人嘛那要怎麼講呢 對不對我就希望你就是事實回答他今天在經濟部的地上陳情書剛剛我也講了這些實際他們所發言的東西而且台電 他如果對台電不滿報告委員 報告委員他如果對台電不滿 他可以到台電去"},{"start":10868.558,"end":10895.231,"text":"經濟部是主管機關啦經濟部整個能源政策是主管機關你不要推給台電那我請教你就你說的話嘛國內約有84%的電力將轉由火力發電這是事實吧沒有錯是81%轉成84%那我想請問一下晚上沒有太陽無風無雨那請問一下晚上火力發電回達到多少"},{"start":10897.176,"end":10898.357,"text":"會不會將近一百沒有太陽能啊無風無雨啊"},{"start":10908.157,"end":10928.83,"text":"你這個假設情況的機率非常的小好我跟你講我們還有地熱還有水力我當然知道所以我說將近一百嘛我剛剛是說將近一百我沒有跟你講說是百分百嘛你這樣講的是你不是這個意思嗎那我問你嘛晚上無風無雨或者是沒有太陽晚上一定沒有太陽吧是84%嗎是84%火力發電嗎"},{"start":10933.851,"end":10948.3,"text":"多少我要看數字一定會增加對不對一定會增加對不對好 報告委員就我們的這個資料顯示就是87%是全年的平均全年的平均"},{"start":10949.437,"end":10971.377,"text":"你用全年的平均來跟我回答好我們現階段要跟大家講的是台中市是最痛苦的一手拿著我們的稅金去所謂的撥補一手漲著我們的電價再來火力發電都在台中最大宗現階段燃氣機組準備要上線"},{"start":10972.594,"end":10997.637,"text":"你藍莓機組不願意換王美花說願意 之前願意的承諾的條件那請問一下 郭部長 換到你王美花說的還算不算數藍棲機組換藍莓機組我們本來就是藍棲機組換藍莓機組但你還有沒有備而不用嘛備而不用 這個是另外一個安全上面的考量嘛會有這樣的安全考量就是因為我們缺電嘛就是電不夠多嘛"},{"start":10998.877,"end":11021.625,"text":"所以基本上你就是希望當整個緊急有問題的時候甚至有這些問題產生的時候你們所謂的跳電然後就要產生我們的機器來使用啊報告委員安全不是說電力不夠叫做安全有一些國防的issue也叫做安全那我要講的是中部地區啊也包含彰化我們在火力發電抗議的時候彰化"},{"start":11024.52,"end":11039.65,"text":"王縣長也來到現場中部地區的空污實在是非常嚴重所以我們希望經濟部真的要檢討現在的能源政策並且我希望這些員工他們發聲雖然是少數我尊重你的說法但是我們一定要尊重他們的聲音"},{"start":11040.63,"end":11066.951,"text":"並且能夠保障他們的工作權我們一定尊重少數我沒有講說不尊重少數喔我們當然是尊重少數我只是說他是自由的他可以表達他的意思這樣很好但是您剛剛不要提到說他不高興他可以離開那您感覺就是說你不要來做啊你不要隨便定義我的話你不要講這樣的話啦保障這些人的工作權我的話"},{"start":11067.811,"end":11092.31,"text":"我自己定義 你不要隨便定義我的話你講出來了 你就接受可受公平嗎我當然接受 但是我講的是我定義 不是你定義這些我就不再跟你再多做了 因為趙委一直在說時間到了 不好意思喔 謝謝現在請蘇清泉委員做詢答蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員不在"},{"start":11097.455,"end":11124.136,"text":"登记发言委员除不在场外其余均已发言完毕询答结束委员林黛华所提书面质询列入记录刊登公报书面质询和未及答复部分请相关单位于一周内以书面答复并复制本会进行审查再生能源发展条例第13条条文修正草案现在进行广泛讨论"},{"start":11127.917,"end":11137.921,"text":"廣泛討論無人登記發言請議事人員宣讀所有條文若有修正動議及附帶決議請一併宣讀宣讀完畢後再進行協商請宣讀"},{"start":11143.203,"end":11155.777,"text":"再生能源發展條例委員魯明哲等19人提案第13條除第一項第三款修正為符合環境部相關標準之一般廢棄物或事業廢棄物經處理後製造為燃料者"},{"start":11158.08,"end":11180.795,"text":"第三項墨具修正為由中央主管機關會同農業部定之其餘同線型條文委員先奉等17人提案第13條除第三項墨具修正為由中央主管機關會同農業部定之其餘同線型條文委員楊瓊英等人所提再生能源發展條例第13條修正動議"},{"start":11181.796,"end":11195.784,"text":"除第三項墨具修正為油裝主管機關會同農業部定之其餘同性型條文宣讀完畢現在進行協商"},{"start":11203.2,"end":11222.85,"text":"好請賴銳榮委員做發言好這個修正其實應該大致上大家應該沒有什麼太大的不同意見那我只是建議像那個魯民政委員提的這個部分因為符合環境部的相關標準那一般像這樣的文字其實是可以考慮放在立法說明裡面就是說其實並不影響到他整個這樣會讓整個"},{"start":11223.991,"end":11241.337,"text":"法條文字比較簡單一點 比如說太陽能 熱能利用生殖能的燃料 一般廢棄物 磁石業廢棄物處理以後的製造為燃料者這樣文字上看起來會單純一點啦 也比較我認為這樣如果放在立法聰明是比較好的一個選擇 好 看看各位委員的看法好 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請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":11330.253,"end":11331.794,"text":"請問各位同仁照宣讀協商結論通過有沒有意義"},{"start":11350.558,"end":11372.179,"text":"好那無異議通過討論事項鎖列再生能源發展條例第13條修正條案審查完略拟據審查報告提報院會討論請問需不需要交由黨團協商不用不用好那就不需交由黨團協商本日議程處理完畢現在散會好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16639","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16639","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea62c05bd4558c408683679203eefbeec014bfadd538e1bbbf1c7a45f116004e755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員沈伯洋等17人擬具「國家安全法第十三條及第十三條之一條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員陳冠廷等23人擬具「國家安全法第四條及第八條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「國家安全法第三條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。七、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「國家安全法第三條、第八條及第十八條條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具「國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。九、審查委員黃捷等16人擬具「國家安全法第二條、第三條及第七條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-01","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-01T08:31:32+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-01T11:38:00+08:00","duration":11188,"影片長度":"03:06:28","委員發言時間":"08:31:32 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請宣讀"},{"start":1940.362,"end":1968.074,"text":"审查委员陈冠廷等21人拟据国家安全法第二条及第七条条文修正草案审查委员沈伯扬等17人拟据国家安全法第13条及第13条之一条文修正草案审查委员陈冠廷等23人拟据国家安全法第四条及第八条条文修正草案审查委员邱志伟等16人拟据国家安全法第三条条文修正草案审查委员沈伯扬等20人委员王定理等16人分别拟据国家安全法第二条及第七条条文修正草案"},{"start":1968.656,"end":1994.943,"text":"審查委員陳伯陽等20人擬具國家安全法第三條第八條及第十八條條文修正草案審查委員陳冠廷等19人擬具國家安全法增訂第十九條之一條文草案審查委員黃婕等16人擬具國家安全法第二條第三條及第七條條文修正草案宣讀完畢好本日議程所列討論事項合併詢答先來介紹在場委員及列席官員我們黃婕委員"},{"start":1998.543,"end":2018.868,"text":"蘇巧惠委員沈伯陽委員陸委會副主任委員梁文傑法務部政務次長黃士傑現在請提案委員說明提案要職黃婕委員"},{"start":2031.811,"end":2056.708,"text":"好謝謝主席還有在場所有委員所有官員大家早安那今天提這個國安法其實是有非常重要的原因是因為其實大家知道說2020年到現在共諜已經起訴了159位那去年起訴的是64位其實是2020年的三倍之多所以代表說正視這個國安的漏洞有其必要"},{"start":2057.008,"end":2081.332,"text":"那我也認為說國安法現在有非常多需要補起來的地方那所以在我的修正版本裡面有兩個重點第一個是現行法的漏洞應該要處罰這個發展組織的預備行為大家可以看到國安法的第二條目前只有禁止替中共或是境外敵對勢力發展組織但是有很多的滲透行為在正式發展組織之前就已經開始了"},{"start":2081.892,"end":2099.718,"text":"包括說他們在開會他們連署甚至是有一些公開的聲明等等我認為這些預備行為都已經對國安造成實質的威脅所以我認為在第二條裡面應該要加上明定任何人不得藉由聲明會議連署或是其他的形式替敵對境外勢力來發展這個組織"},{"start":2103.739,"end":2133.179,"text":"另外一个是国家核心关键技术的部分我认为应该要强化这个保护不能留下任何的破口现在的第三条里面保护的是国家核心关键技术的营业秘密我认为有一个问题是说如果某一项关键技术因为有人没有做好保密的措施导致不符合目前的营业秘密法的定义所以即便是被敌对势力窃取了也没有办法依照国安法来处罚"},{"start":2133.559,"end":2148.633,"text":"那我認為這個不是很合理所以保護國家的核心技術應該是台灣現在非常關鍵的一件事情因為大家也知道台灣的所有的關鍵技術在國際上的定位還有現在對於台灣的國家安全有多麼的重要"},{"start":2149.574,"end":2168.644,"text":"所以我認為不應該取決是擁有者是不是做好保密那我也主張要修正第三條把知營業秘密刪掉讓法律可以直接保護經公告的國家核心關鍵技術本身來保護這個應該會被漏掉的部分那以上是我的提案說明 謝謝好 請沈博洋委員"},{"start":2184.606,"end":2208.352,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那我快速做一個提案說明今天我這邊有三個不同的法案但是其實在整個這一個所謂的國家安全保護機制裡面其實有很多的層次那很多是在去年再提出了所以我今天只說明是就今天被排案的部分那第一個就是說我們在對於這個國家安全的保護第一個是很需要 如果是公務人員的話 那需要一些忠誠的考核"},{"start":2208.832,"end":2236.893,"text":"然後再來就是需要一些透明跟揭露的機制然後以及事後的處罰那目前來講以經濟安全為例我在這一個簡報上面放的就是說在日本他們盤點所有的這種跟經濟安全有關竊取技術有關的所有的態樣那這些態樣有一些是我們現行法已經能夠事後處罰規能夠已經規範的到有一些是規範不到那裡面非常重要的裡面就是我特別指出來就是第四個這個留學生研究者的交流"},{"start":2237.513,"end":2261.203,"text":"倒數第三個這個所謂的商業間諜還有最後面的這個不公平的貿易行為這幾個是目前規範比較不足的地方那這個貿易的部分是在另外一個方案我這邊不多做說明那這邊在留學生跟這個所謂的商業間諜裡面在日本裡面目前中國在那邊竊取技術或者做這一個間諜行為最常見的都是透過中間人那這個跟我們在國防外交裡面去審這個所謂的這個"},{"start":2264.601,"end":2288.722,"text":"軍官裡面的這個所謂的滲透很多都是透過退役的軍官其實有異曲同工之妙所以在這邊我們我在國安法這個第二條跟第三條都做了一個相對應的規定就是把這個中間人就是在中間這個做仲介的這一個把他納入到法律的規範那裡面的這一個因為我們是用反滲透法上面的文字那反滲透法的文字本來就有點繞口所以"},{"start":2289.582,"end":2314.299,"text":"針對這一個文字到底應該做什麼修正尊重這一個行政機關的意見那另外呢還要特別說明的就是說因為我們可能很多會想到就是說這是不是原本用共犯的方式就可以處理那其實這是一個權宜之計因為我們目前來講對於這一個所謂的這些行為所規範的這一個態樣種類太少了那種類太少了就會像剛剛黃婕委員提到的有些根本就處罰不到"},{"start":2314.739,"end":2332.098,"text":"那處罰不到的話就會形成一個詭異的問題就是你沒有正犯就沒有共犯所以我們希望藉由這樣的一個暫時的修法的方式至少能夠讓中間人能夠納入到規範裡面就跟反生龍法有點類似那再來接下來的一個就是說呢剛剛講的這個事後的部分因為"},{"start":2332.738,"end":2356.308,"text":"除了這個處罰以外很多有時候呢就尤其是不管是我們的公務員啊軍官等等之類的他們會有一些退休縫那我們除了原來的刑罰之外是不是要針對這個行政的部分就他們的這一個退休縫來去給予減免或者說讓他喪失請領的權利這個部分是我們現行法本來就已經有的規定那目前來講呢我們是把這一個"},{"start":2357.468,"end":2374.706,"text":"喪失勤領權力希望他能夠把反滲透法訂進去因為當時這一個的原因就是因為說這些人已經違反了國家的安全所以呢我們希望他這個喪失勤領的權力但因為我們訂了反滲透法就是為了國家安全但當時沒有相對應的把反滲透法訂到這一邊"},{"start":2375.426,"end":2399.554,"text":"所以這邊把反受到法加進來這是第一個那第二個呢我覺得比較重要的地方就是說這個法務部呢在這邊有特別提到說這有沒有違反比例原則的一個問題那裡面有特別提到這個因為我們在寫的時候是參佐公務人員退休這個之前撫恤法跟政務人員退職撫恤條例第13條所以呢如果說原來這個部分可能有些比例原則的問題的話我在想說"},{"start":2400.174,"end":2427.32,"text":"是不是到之後我們在等院版的時候是把公務人員退休之前跟這個政務人員退服的條例的相關的規定也來一併做修正那這樣的話呢就可以比較符合比例原則的一個考量那最後一個我要提到的就是說呢中間這一個部分就是剝奪或減少因為我們目前法律上的一個設計就是要嘛就是喪失嘛那有時候部分可能會停止那中間這一個剝奪跟減少呢通常來講呢就是針對這個刑度比較輕的部分或者"},{"start":2427.78,"end":2438.594,"text":"兩岸條例九之三的規定就是說減少的部分但是因為現在統戰的太陽實在太多了很難就被這中間三樣所涵蓋所以是不是應該把這些有損軍運或妨礙國家尊嚴的行為把它納入讓它能夠比較擴張剝奪或減少退出機遇那這樣的一個"},{"start":2446.26,"end":2465.246,"text":"那這樣的一個方式呢就也能夠比較符合像剛剛在這個法務部的報告裡面說比例原則的問題如果我們能夠把剝奪或減少退出給予的部分做一個增加那或許在喪失勤領權利這個部分就可以稍微做一個調整那就更可以符合比例原則好 那我這邊提案說明說明到這邊 謝謝好 那個請陳冠余委員"},{"start":2487.578,"end":2503.596,"text":"那我們這邊來說明一下我們這些國家安全部分的修正草案的提案說明最近從這一年來收到媒體注目的共諜案共達18案還在增加當中平均每一個月就會有一個共諜案見報"},{"start":2504.617,"end":2531.755,"text":"那这些的共谍案件已经不限于军人不限于退伍军人那甚至包含说总统府立法院军警县等等都有这样子相关的渗透所以我们对于国家安全的这些查核制度还有这些国家机密的保护我们必须要进行全面性的反制包含要针对中国的敌对的这个势力在自动安全的侵害那所以我们提案说明里面的国家安全法第二条及第七条的这一个"},{"start":2532.895,"end":2552.425,"text":"條文的修正草案我們是希望說這個過去強化國家安全法對於保護國家安全的公共利益的能力從保護範圍從公務上的機密文書圖像影像消息物品或電子紀錄擴展到涉及國家安全或者是公共利益上保密的這些文書圖畫"},{"start":2553.746,"end":2571.202,"text":"影像消息物品或電視記錄那也要把他的行則相應的來提高那從公務上擴展到涉及國家安全或公共利益就應該要列入保護那更全面更明確的覆蓋各個可能危害國家安全的行為那我們認為這是有助於國家安全的防範"},{"start":2571.963,"end":2590.4,"text":"那再來就是國家安全法第四條第八條的修正草案那這個我們把國人免受包含中國香港澳門或者是其他境外勢力控制的資通安全的產品侵害那我們主張主管機關應該建立資通安全定期評估機制還要提出限制"},{"start":2590.9,"end":2617.924,"text":"建議清單限制建議清單來去避免境外的敵對勢力透過控制的資通安全產品來去影響國人或者是竊取個人的資訊那再來就是國家安全法申訂的這個我們主張的第19條之一的修正草案那根據法務部的統計從2016年到2023年8月這個期間許多我黨國家安全案件法院對相關的這些犯罪者的"},{"start":2618.484,"end":2646.204,"text":"平均刑度他們判的大概是六個多月六個多月那對國家安全的影響之大但是刑度之輕我想這個應該是不符合比例原則所以我們是希望說這種判例不要讓共諜認為有恃無恐這對國家安全的維護相當不利因此違反國家安全法之國安要案件我們是希望由國安專業知識的法官在國家安全專業的法庭中審理那"},{"start":2646.604,"end":2669.504,"text":"我們剛才講的這些法官每年也要接受一定時數的國家安全相關專業的在職研習那這個原因是因為我們必須要知道現在中共共諜來深入我國政府的各種的樣態手法讓法官們能夠了解這些樣態之後對於他們作為這個刑度的參考那我想可能會有更多的幫助那以上 謝謝"},{"start":2675.353,"end":2700.865,"text":"好那我們現在請大陸委員會我們兩副主委文捷報告主席各位委員大家好陸委會就"},{"start":2702.697,"end":2717.282,"text":"就審查國家安全法相關修正草案進行報告以下請提出本會說明進行指教那長期以來中共對我統戰滲透那總統只是全面要檢視相關的法令"},{"start":2722.258,"end":2743.012,"text":"總統在本年3月13日提出五大國安及統戰威脅和實際下因應策略已經清楚指出為因應中共對我滲透統戰各機關應該全面檢視相關法令必要時提出相關修正案儘速落實本會樂見立法委員提出相關修正案進行審議討論"},{"start":2745.438,"end":2769.035,"text":"那第二 共諜案層出不窮 相關法制的確有待完備根據國安局的統計 2024年一位共諜案起訴人數計64人是2021年的三倍顯示中共不斷刺激挖掘我方可吸收的人員 藉以擴大共諜網絡政府於109年曾經修正國安五法"},{"start":2769.602,"end":2780.876,"text":"但是層出不窮的共諜案件再再顯示當前的國安法制還是無法有效遏制這種案件的產生有待相關法制的進一步完備"},{"start":2782.148,"end":2799.562,"text":"那第三我們國家的核心關鍵技術和關鍵基礎設施是中共重要滲透目標必須要強化相關規範來防篤基先那近年來陸方持續透過非法挖角在台施設據點等方式竊取我國關鍵產業技術"},{"start":2802.645,"end":2821.905,"text":"間諜網軍及駭客長期以我政府單位 機密單位 關鍵基礎設施及自通安全措施作為滲透目標長此以往不但將嚴重影響我國經濟產業優勢地位也將對我國家安全與社會安全造成重大危害所以"},{"start":2823.543,"end":2841.018,"text":"為進一步強化我們國家核心關鍵技術和國家關鍵基礎設施的維護有賴相關法制要提供更完備的行為規範第四各個委員的相關提案版本主要是修正國安法的相關規定針對防度發展組織禁止參與組織防範洩密維護國家核心關鍵技術"},{"start":2847.967,"end":2870.561,"text":"維護國家關鍵基礎設施維護自動安全對於違反相關規定的軍公教級供應機構人員剝奪期退休給予設立國安專庭等部分加以強化那相關修法方向與本會政策立場一致那本會競表支持並尊重大院的審議結果謝謝好謝謝好那我們請法務部防政務次長士傑"},{"start":2883.021,"end":2900.299,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位與會的先進今天奉邀列席大院櫃員會就病案審查委員陳冠廷等21人擬拒國家安全法第二條及第七條條文修正查案等案代表本部列席報告並被質詢原分數如下進行質教"},{"start":2901.922,"end":2924.091,"text":"國家安全涉及軍事經濟科技文化等多個面向是政府最重要的工作之一來維護國家的基本利益跟人民的福祉那麼近來境外敵對勢力對台勝透守法日益多元方式種類多樣而對我國的國家安全造成重大的威脅有建議我國高科技產業具有高度的戰略價值"},{"start":2925.391,"end":2943.055,"text":"為周延保護我國高科技產業競爭力及國家經濟利益並防止國家核心關鍵技術之營業秘密遭侵害本部前逾110年7月與國防部內政部共同會嫌提案修正國家安全法修正內容包含明定國家核心關鍵技術"},{"start":2946.257,"end":2963.09,"text":"經濟間諜罪與國家核心關鍵技術營業秘密之域外使用罪發展組織國安案件與國安營業秘密案件由第二審法院為第一審管轄增訂廠商履約交付錄製品及不實軍品罪設立國安專業法庭或專股審查審理"},{"start":2965.231,"end":2982.092,"text":"國安法案件等等並於111年5月兼經大院三讀通過那裡面仿效了美國經濟間諜法案完備國家核心關鍵技術因應秘密之層級化保護體系以達到保護高科技產業之目的來保護國家經濟命案之安全"},{"start":2982.853,"end":3002.97,"text":"那麼當然在這幾年間執行的結果發現尚有許多不足之處因此在此也感謝各位委員長期對我國國安法制的關心憂衷表示敬佩委員提案修法內容部分好事涉刑法法定主義跟比例原則所以與本部延期結果可能略有不同"},{"start":3003.43,"end":3028.767,"text":"然未呼應國人對國家安全保障之殷切期盼並提升國家安全法治而完整性之修法目的則無二致本部對於修正目的均表示支持跟贊同引下因時間關係僅就各修正草案內容之構成要件與其他法律保護範圍及刑法原理原則之關聯略述表示意見"},{"start":3029.668,"end":3036.042,"text":"那麼首先關於委員陳冠廷的21人擬拒國安法第二條跟第七條修正草案的殷委員這個"},{"start":3038.732,"end":3063.152,"text":"加入涉及國家安全或公共利益等要件其修法目的這個用意良善但是這樣子加上這個要件之後可能比現行條文所定義的公務秘密範圍可能會有點縮小目前國安法的保護的涵蓋範圍是最廣的所以本條的修正見請在左"},{"start":3063.832,"end":3082.655,"text":"那麼有關委員沈伯陽等17人你據國安法第13條及第13條之一條文修正草案,剛才沈委員已經有所說明那麼在書面意見中所提出的這個比例原則的部分因為也涉及到很多其他的相關的配套的法令,包含"},{"start":3083.575,"end":3111.984,"text":"這個兩岸人民關係條例以及這個國防部所屬的相關的法律均應會同一併修正所以我們會配合行政院的齊成跟各機關一起一同來檢視相關的法律如何來規定能夠達到這個嚇阻這個軍公教及相關公益事業機構所有的這些人員對國家的忠誠義務能夠提升的這樣的一個立法目的我們會再行研議"},{"start":3112.924,"end":3130.259,"text":"那麼有關委員邱志偉的16年拟據國家安全法第三條條文修正草案案的部分這個跟黃婕媛的提案有類似之處那麼因為這一個現行國安法的第三條跟第八條是模仿參考美國聯邦"},{"start":3133.801,"end":3162.127,"text":"經濟間諜法第18231條等條文來訂定那麼認為說將國家核心關鍵技術跟一頁秘密結合有利於與一頁秘密法相互搭配來建構神奇化的保護規範並且在偵查跟審判程序中可以直接適用一頁秘密的保護體系例如檢察官在偵查中可以核發偵查保密令審判中法官可核發秘密保持命令等等對於這一些"},{"start":3163.207,"end":3187.188,"text":"技術秘密的保護在增省的過程中保護較為周延並且可以使刑罰的課題限縮在符合營業秘密要建置國家核心關鍵技術不致過寬避免過度限縮企業的活動力那麼管制國家核心關鍵技術的方式及違反這些管制措施的處罰事實上屬於敏感性技術出口管制之範疇"},{"start":3188.129,"end":3217.181,"text":"另外可以在相關的法律來定為規範國安法目前的條文仍然是以經濟間諜行為為主是處罰的對象所以如果是敏感性技術的出口管制如果經核定為國家核心關鍵技術後對於這些持有秘密人的管制措施另外在相關的法律裡面去訂定會比在目前的條文裡面直接刪除來得完善所以這個部分也見請在座那麼"},{"start":3218.915,"end":3244.955,"text":"關於委員沈柏洋等20人拟據《國家安全法》第二條及第七條條文修正查案案所提到的仿效反授鬥法第九條的提例增訂中間人的部分因為在實際偵查案件上面事實上很多案件都可以用正犯的理論就可以處理所以是不是有需要一同來訂定這個我們可以再行研議"},{"start":3246.316,"end":3253.785,"text":"另外提出來修正草案第二條將國家關鍵基礎設施的安全防護規定訂到條文裡面來但是因為現行的體制裡面行政院國家關鍵基礎設施安全防護指導綱領"},{"start":3264.096,"end":3285.008,"text":"裡面已經有要求關於這個部分全述除了依法列為國家機密者外,均應列為公務機密所以現行條文的公務上因秘密之文書、圖畫、影像、消息、物品或電子紀錄這些文字的敘述應該已經可以涵蓋這個修法所想要納入的內容"},{"start":3288.359,"end":3303.348,"text":"有關委員王定宇第16條等16人擬拒國家安全法第2條及第7條條文修正草案這個部分關於加重其刑的部分立法目的"},{"start":3307.523,"end":3334.698,"text":"我們認為就參與組織的類型要增訂本部贊同要增訂不是只有發展在參與組織部分這個類型要增訂但是條文的敘述方式關於這個構成要件應該如何敘述以符合明確性跟比例原則這個部分我們會另外再來提出目前在研議當中所以也請在座"},{"start":3335.638,"end":3349.823,"text":"那麼在關於這個委員什麼樣的20年拟據國家安全法第3條、第8條、第18條條文修正草案等案關於中間的部分意見如前那麼關於修正這個"},{"start":3351.543,"end":3365.921,"text":"國家經濟健能罪的部分那麼這個也意見跟剛才已經有敘述過了那最後關於委員陳冠廷的19人擬拒國家安全法增訂第19條之一條文草案這個部分因為"},{"start":3367.123,"end":3379.379,"text":"現行的國安法其實已經就專業法庭或指定專股辦理人已有規定只是用得涉的規定來設現行的國安法19條因為司法院在112年12月20日已經在他的"},{"start":3384.719,"end":3395.828,"text":"修正公布的現行各級法院法官辦理案件年度司法事務分配辦法的第二條跟附表二已經針對這個國安專庭有所規範那麼也已經有設立這個國安軍事專業法庭了那是否有真正的必要見請在座"},{"start":3404.094,"end":3414.284,"text":"至於說第二項要求專業法庭的法官要每年接受在職訓練及專業認證此涉及司法院的業管本部尊重其權責及意見因為時間的關係其他如果沒有敘述到的請參閱書面報告以上說明謝謝"},{"start":3422.987,"end":3447.986,"text":"好 其他單位的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報那我們現在進行詢答委員諮詢前 原列座以下幾點宣告本會委員發言時間5加1非本會委員發言時間4分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記因為今天處理法案 本次會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位有沒有意見"},{"start":3449.332,"end":3452.914,"text":"好沒有那我們現在請登基第一位的蘇巧惠委員好謝謝主席我們先請法務部黃次長好請黃次長"},{"start":3474.667,"end":3496.814,"text":"市長剛剛聽您報告這麼完整那也對今天所有大家這個國安法各位委員的版本有做出了法務部的意見那我想大家都可以同意國安危機是應該要被重視的那所以我想第一個請教你一個整體的概念那我們今天來修正國安法即便今天所有委員的版本都通過了就能夠解決國安問題嗎"},{"start":3498.397,"end":3518.181,"text":"我想國安問題不是只有一部國安法在處理剛才不管是本部的報告或入委會的報告都有提到很多相關的法令其實都要配套來搭配來修正還有相關的行政管制措施還有一些配套其實都要深圳報案司法院都要共同來努力"},{"start":3518.641,"end":3525.824,"text":"我想我確實如同次長說的啦就國安的樣態國安危機的樣態犯罪樣態真的很多我們這樣子可以看得出來您剛說法規你看羅列下來就這麼多的法規都其實是涉及相關的國安危機都可能產生國安危機的狀況所以如果我們今天只就國安法來修正不管是名詞定義或者是這個管轄的範圍等等我覺得可能都還不夠比如說呢"},{"start":3546.873,"end":3574.57,"text":"如果我們來看這三年統計的狀態我們這三年在剛剛那麼多的法條規定裡面如果我們用到國安法從涉案來講其實也就是這麼幾件那甚至到判刑來講坦白講這三年裡面一共只有合計就這麼個位數的件數有到判刑的狀態而且呢六個月以上刑度的其實也只有一件"},{"start":3575.39,"end":3592.351,"text":"所以如果國人都同意國安的危機是現在整個台灣應該要面對的狀況那我們就必須慎重的來思考我們的國安危機國安犯罪的樣態到底有多少我同意國安法應該要修正但"},{"start":3592.831,"end":3598.454,"text":"其實應該不只是國安法這個應該是完全同意的狀態吧所以我反而會認為說如果今天這樣來講的話其實法務部做雖然這個國安法的這個主管機關喔這個其實應該算行政院吧應該算行政院可是至少法務部應該是可以提出跟陸委會共同提出一個大的意見我覺得這國安的狀態應該是整包來修正啊對這你們有沒有什麼樣的想法或計畫院的態度到底是什麼"},{"start":3622.166,"end":3644.011,"text":"在賴總統做出指示之後 誠如剛才陸委會兩副主委所說行政院已經啟動各機關來檢視各該所管的法令所以剛剛我也提到說有關於像退府給予的剝奪或是減少這個部分事實上因為42多機關我們已經啟動檢視的機制也跟各機關會同會配合來修訂"},{"start":3647.992,"end":3676.765,"text":"所以真的是非常多啦有不只是一部啦所以我是希望說今天我們雖然已經是要來這個審查這個國安法的修正可是我覺得今天這是一個啟動我認為它是一個啟動我認為第一還是應該要有院版啦而且這個院版其實甚至不是只有國安法一個法律我認為其實就是要有非常多相關的法律同時提出它是一整套台灣面對國安危機的狀態我覺得這樣會比較完善以上是我的意見次長同意嗎是同意謝謝好那我認為要加速啦那"},{"start":3677.265,"end":3687.794,"text":"我不知道你騎乘是什麼時候不過沒關係我就希望加速好這是先次長的部分那我接下來次長請回座我想要請這個陸委會梁副主委好請陸委會"},{"start":3692.682,"end":3698.889,"text":"是委員好副主委你應該也同意剛剛我跟這個法務部黃次長的對話啦就是說國安危機樣態這麼多其實不是只有修國安法就可以解決這個沒有問題吧是沒有問題好那副主委其實我想跟你討論的反而是喔"},{"start":3707.899,"end":3720.47,"text":"一般人現在我們每天會遇到的狀況其實它可能不見得是國安法處理的它可能我認為以新聞事件來講最常發生的可能是兩岸人民社兩岸人民關係條例因為以今天這個大家都在談這個禮拜大家在談的這個案例陸委會也表達過態度"},{"start":3726.515,"end":3738.924,"text":"兩岸共讀一本好書爭文大賽陸委會你就這個案件來你說他可能有涉犯兩岸人民關係條例然後就有相關當事人出來說你這個是文字獄等等我現在給副主委你的時間來解釋一下請問你所說的涉犯到底是指誰涉犯什麼樣的樣態涉犯我認為這其實應該反而講得更清楚大家才知道到底我在什麼位置"},{"start":3756.595,"end":3768.043,"text":"你在講我嗎我是哪一個行為副主委你可以說明清楚一點嗎這個活動其實它是去年就辦了第一屆今年是第二屆那"},{"start":3770.882,"end":3787.055,"text":"他的行為樣態是我們是把它界定為違反兩岸人民條例33-1也就是與中共黨政軍機關合作行為為什麼合作行為一般來講的話我們會先去界定說對方"},{"start":3788.296,"end":3808.43,"text":"和對方的合作對象他到底是不是黨政軍機構然後再看說這樣的合作舉辦的活動的目的和他的實際上想要達成的意圖到底是什麼我們並不會說所有的合作行為我們都反對 並不是這樣"},{"start":3809.298,"end":3836.55,"text":"但是在這個活動裡面就很清楚是對方的這個黨政軍機構雖然中共的黨政機構非常多啦它會隱藏成各種 譬如說用公司的名義用出版社的名義 用什麼團體的名義但是我們會查到說它確實就是中共的黨政軍機構然後它發起了這樣的一個活動然後台灣的某一個出版社或是公司跟它合作辦理"},{"start":3837.31,"end":3853.523,"text":"那他這樣他以這個活動來講的話就是說他以舉辦這個讀書讀書為名然後讓所有報名者報名者你只要有報名他就可以把你列入說我"},{"start":3854.704,"end":3872.861,"text":"帶到大陸去做所謂的研習營以去年來說的話他到了大陸去之後然後就是開始做一些參訪過程然後中共的統戰官員就出席然後就告訴大家說今天這個活動就是為了這個祖國共同推動祖國和平統一等等這樣子"},{"start":3873.982,"end":3890.762,"text":"那所以去年這樣的活動呢他就已經辦過一次那今年又再舉辦那最近大家比較誤會的就是所謂的什麼歐貴之老師我們並不是針對歐貴之老師不是嘛 不是針對這個歐老師嘛因為他的最近的爭議比較大"},{"start":3892.384,"end":3921.491,"text":"所以也算是眾所矚目的公眾人物是所以他在他在自己的群組或是什麼地方轉發了這個活動的訊息以後那就會有人跟我們政府機關來檢舉檢舉的是這個活動檢舉的是這個活動所以我們所查的是這個活動是這個事情呢對我們來說這種檢舉是一個消息來源是一個線索但是我們並不是去查歐貴之老師本人"},{"start":3921.991,"end":3930.197,"text":"好很好副主委那我其實因為時間的關係我再做個簡單的整理其實我們在認定這些活動的時候其實以這個案例來講就等於有三個層次第一個是這個活動的主辦單位第二個是消息的轉傳人第三個是參與者而陸委會在新聞發布的上面寫到說本案件恐赦兩岸人民關係條例的33條之一指的是這個主辦單位而不是轉傳訊息的人更不是參與者"},{"start":3950.771,"end":3954.553,"text":"至少在本件是如此嘛對不對那這個活動為什麼會被認定為是有違反有涉33條之一的原因因為它的主辦單位除了台灣的這個民間單位之外其實最重要的第一個海峽出版發行集團它就是屬於福建省"},{"start":3969.502,"end":3978.928,"text":"國有獨資企業由福建省委宣傳部來領導就是這麼簡單嘛這個就是中共的黨政軍機構之一所以當然很明確的是涉犯這兩岸人民關係條例的33條之一嘛所以我覺得坊間其實不應該誤解說好像現在所有的人只要跟大陸扯上關係跟中國扯上關係我們就會政府就會怎麼樣怎麼樣其實完全不是這樣的狀況"},{"start":3997.358,"end":4012.433,"text":"所以用這個例子我也是想請陸委會未來在這一些案例出來的時候其實可以更明確的區分清楚讓人民知道說我是在什麼位置所以什麼樣的行為會有涉及"},{"start":4012.793,"end":4028.81,"text":"台灣危害了我自己國家的國家安全那這樣子我不會有觸法的行為未來我們也比較容易讓大家更能夠建立這個遵循的架構就是我希望陸委會未來在發布新聞的時候可以更明確一點啦免得反而變成消息誤傳啊變成什麼文字獄我覺得這樣不太好啦"},{"start":4032.513,"end":4042.195,"text":"謝謝委員 這個部分我們會注意因為最近針對這個案子有很多錯誤的指控是那我們陸委會所針對的對象絕對不是什麼個人而是針對這樣舉辦這種活動和大陸和這個中共黨軍機構合作的團體或是組織好 謝謝陸委會 未來請加油 謝謝好 謝謝好 請李博義委員"},{"start":4069.798,"end":4072.267,"text":"謝謝 有請陸委會副主委好 請陸委會"},{"start":4077.665,"end":4103.577,"text":"所以委員好副主席你剛剛講的這個案件其實每天都在台灣發生沒有錯發生的型態有太多種那我們今天有立法院我們內政委員會提出來的這些國安法的討論裡面包含很多法條其實很多委員的版本其實我們沒有辦法掌握到"},{"start":4104.577,"end":4133.59,"text":"向陸委會可以掌握到這麼多的這些形態跟樣態是跟你聊一下跟你討論一下中共有多少人在做統戰那他統戰的形態有多少誰是會被他想要統戰的有哪些形態的人我稍微講一下你看我有沒有漏掉是退役軍人退役調查局退役公務員這是他們最有興趣的對不對接下來"},{"start":4137.244,"end":4161.79,"text":"現任可能是不管是助理也好或者是可能從事政治相關活動的也好這個也是他們想要滲透的對不對還有之前更嚴重的直接買一個政黨叫做統一促進黨都直接拿中國的資金介入台灣選舉違反可能是選罷法那違反可能是"},{"start":4165.507,"end":4189.132,"text":"政黨法當然他已經第一個被成功送政黨解散的一個政黨他不是政黨他也是中共想要滲透的一個黨一個單位這麼多這麼多的這種形態那我想我們今天提出來的包含委員提出來的我有連署的第二條"},{"start":4191.475,"end":4218.236,"text":"如果有去簽署加入他們的組織的這個我們希望也可以把它規範下來第七條針對現任軍人跟公務員我們有用加重刑責的方式第十四條我覺得也非常值得討論雖然在現在退服法裡面針對他們這些退休的這些待遇可能我們就是如果有犯相關的這些國安的事情我們給他停職之外呢"},{"start":4219.056,"end":4241.681,"text":"那我覺得修法還是遠遠不夠因為裡面還是我們每天遭遇的剛剛我講的這一個每天在推廣中共統戰訊息的這一些而且這些訊息可能是假的訊息可能都是認知作戰的內容這一些我們確實無法規範你知道我講的就是抖音TikTok是那"},{"start":4243.064,"end":4269.46,"text":"對於抖音TikTok它其實每天每天都在發生雖然我們都會去教不管是長輩或者是年輕人看抖音的時候要有一個判斷的想法但是我們確實無法規範抖音它同時也是造成美國國安問題很重要的一個原因我想要針對抖音的問題來請教副主委"},{"start":4271.308,"end":4291.025,"text":"抖音我們在上一次遇到的這些包含陸配大部分的陸配都是很好的在台灣生活過的不可能想要再回中國去過中國的那種生活但是他透過抖音衝他在中國的流量"},{"start":4292.236,"end":4317.886,"text":"去賺他的錢但是講的內容卻嚴重傷害台灣我們卻只能用台灣地區大陸人民關係條例來做這一些管理管制但是還是有大量的到中國發展的網紅有這一些行為那我們要怎麼樣可以來規範當然也不是審查我們都知道他是帶流量嘛"},{"start":4319.002,"end":4334.504,"text":"他藉由這個統戰藉由講台灣不好藉由甚至講武統台灣這些內容然後來衝他的流量我們卻沒有任何武器可以來對付這個我覺得這是不是應該要做一些約束"},{"start":4336.719,"end":4353.717,"text":"關於抖音以及不只是抖音還有很多其他的各類的網路世界的一些網站或者是等等這些部分其實在非常非常遺憾的就是說我們台灣其實沒有什麼法律可以管"},{"start":4355.295,"end":4372.166,"text":"非常自由啊除了根據兒少法如果他有這個兒少相關就是保護兒童出於保護兒童的目的那我們的政府機關才可以針對該網站做出處罰或是所謂的"},{"start":4374.213,"end":4395.955,"text":"降解析意思就是block起來所以這個我們要跟疏發部要好好的來做一些探討但是這個不只是疏發部的問題意思就是說這個權力到底要放在哪一個單位手上疏發部他可能譬如說即使在兒照法的時候疏發部也只是一個執行的單位"},{"start":4396.495,"end":4421.022,"text":"它並不是一個決定做決策的單位所以我們對於網路世界的管理確實在台灣目前為止沒有法律的授權各個機關碰到類似這樣的問題的時候那往往就是有點應該是說沒有法律授權所以沒有辦法處理接下來我們就是要應應的問題最後"},{"start":4423.282,"end":4447.27,"text":"民進黨在這一屆的立法院已經提出包括兩岸人民關係條例反滲透法還有資訊安全管理法在藍白的程序委員會一共被擋了363次包含中國國民黨跟台灣民眾黨很遺憾的在第九屆的時代力量"},{"start":4448.39,"end":4461.124,"text":"黃國昌委員也都提出國安跟加重的共諜的這些刑責我很想看看今天的台灣民眾黨的黃國昌委員對於國安法的態度到底是怎樣副主委這個你不用回答謝謝我們請高金素梅委員"},{"start":4477.533,"end":4481.016,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請黃次長好 請黃次長次長你好 這次國安法修法請問一下行政院為什麼沒有提出版本我們現在目前正在盤點跟研議中現在正在盤點跟研理條文中所以行政院未來會提出版本是嗎 是請問一下是哪個部會是主管機關"},{"start":4505.584,"end":4523.733,"text":"官法裡面因為他是跨部會所以目前他是掛在行政院直接主管所以在大院是在內政委員會所以未來主管機關是行政院還是行政院所以行政院會跨部會協調大家然後但是今天我們看到立法院有九個修法版本"},{"start":4524.572,"end":4546.556,"text":"那在我看來的時候我真的覺得不可思議啊我要講一下過去這幾年在民進黨的主導之下我們在2019年修了國安無法然後也立了反滲透法2022年呢又修了國家安全法我們現在只要打開全國法規資料庫只要跟國家安全有關的法條就有397條之多"},{"start":4549.659,"end":4575.812,"text":"而事隔三年 我們又要再一次來修國安法我們看一下眼前這些版本呢把法修得越來越嚴管制的範圍也越來越寬我們看一下陳冠寧委員版本陳委員把原來的國安法的第二條第二款的條文當中公務上應祕密之改成了涉及國家安全或公共利益上應祕密之"},{"start":4577.313,"end":4601.078,"text":"我認為啦 雖然您剛剛的說法是縮小範圍 但是我認為是擴大了為什麼擴大了 因為呢 把原來的範圍明確講公務然後變成了什麼 涉及國家安全或者是公共利益 這麼樣模糊的用語那麼這麼一修改 不就是把一般人民也牽扯進來了嗎"},{"start":4603.09,"end":4622.783,"text":"國家安全或者是公共利益要怎麼定義你們司法院的書面報告也有提出質疑壓請問一下國家安全或公共利益是哪一個政府部門主管機關請問我想這個在不同的法律裡面都會有用到類似的用語"},{"start":4623.891,"end":4649.972,"text":"那但是因為我們的書面議件已經提出來說認為這一個修正條文的修法的方向可能會有一些明確性或者是說範圍上跟其他法令搭配的疑慮所以我們是渐行再行爭取好所以呢我們再來看完定於的版本他修訂了第二條第一款的內容恐怕連一般關心社會熱心參加活動的人民也會入罪喔對吧"},{"start":4658.099,"end":4674.856,"text":"黃婕委員版的第二條第二款他剛剛也做出提案的說明甚至對於用聲明會議連署或者其他形式表達不同於政府意見的人都有入罪的可能這不就是思想檢查嗎"},{"start":4675.816,"end":4697.435,"text":"這也不是更進一步的限制集會自由和言論自由嗎然後再來看一下陳冠廷委員版本的第四條說要透過所謂的知通安全產品定期評估機制提出限制建議清單不准商店提供下載和更新否則將受罰"},{"start":4699.622,"end":4724.747,"text":"如果一般民眾不透過網路商店仍然下載到被限制的知通產品這麼樣也違反國安法違反國家安全嗎我們看一下現在一般的知通產品他都會在使用者的同意之下收集用戶的資訊作為他們大數據算法的依據例如Google"},{"start":4725.487,"end":4750.882,"text":"臉書LINE抖音TRADE難道這些知通產品也要通通被限制嗎委員請問現在是要我回答嗎因為剛剛你說我不用回答因為你剛剛一直看我你剛剛說我不用回答所以你認為第四條呢這不是你管的吧這個部分應該是剛剛那個書發部有說明對這不是你管的嗎所以你不用書發部有在嗎"},{"start":4752.363,"end":4774.919,"text":"好 麻煩請您上台一下 謝謝您可以休息一下陳冠廷委員的版本第四條說資通安全請問一下Google臉書LINE、抖音、Trade難道這些資通產品要通的限制嗎"},{"start":4777.738,"end":4804.419,"text":"跟委員報告 其實陳冠廷委員提了這個資生安全產品的部分的話那目前我們資安署這邊有在修正資生安全管理法那有把危害國家資生安全產品放到我們人務法裡面去那這個危害國家資生安全產品我們會建立一個審查跟查詢的機制那提供給各公務機關跟特定非公務機關來說哪一些產品是不得下載使用那你們目前你們目前所收集到的資料是哪一些產品不可以"},{"start":4805.226,"end":4811.874,"text":"因為目前這個法還在修那以現階段來講我們是先禁止使用大陸廠牌的自動訊產品例如"},{"start":4813.028,"end":4838.299,"text":"例如在公務機關的話我們不得使用像是大陸廠牌像小米華為所謂是公務機關嘛對吧對他沒有限制一般的民眾嗎目前沒有好未來這個法修的時候好像是只要是公共利益的都有喔好再來陳冠廷委員版本第19條還提到了要設立國家安全專業法庭這個次長就可以來了這樣的法庭現在不是已經有了嗎這個司法院的業務好司法院今天有來嗎好謝謝"},{"start":4842.452,"end":4870.555,"text":"一十九條要設立國家安全專業法庭這樣法庭現在不是已經有了嗎請問是的現在全國各法院還有高等法院按照陳委員他的修法的說明他說這幾年來因為違反國家安全法的相關案件的判刑都是輕判和一顆罰金這好像是跟法官的國安專業知識不足有關所以呢必須要重新訓練一批可以達到績效能判重刑的法官才可以"},{"start":4871.684,"end":4876.468,"text":"這樣的見解 這樣的修法不就和當年擺設恐怖戒嚴時期的心態一樣嗎要用軍法官來判案然後守謀判刑至少要15年以上這不是戒嚴 什麼才是戒嚴呢你同意這樣的修法嗎"},{"start":4887.937,"end":4901.63,"text":"加強教育訓練其實我們目前都有在做那也尊重個案法官關於量刑的判斷好 所以謝謝你我在這裡最後用一點點的時間我要舉一個血淋淋的例子請大家聽好"},{"start":4903.392,"end":4919.704,"text":"1949年 國民政府在反共的國策之下 它宣布了戒嚴不久之後呢 就用一旨行政命令 發布了三地管制然後這樣的管制呢 管制了30個三地鄉幾乎台灣一半的土地 都被劃進了三地管制區"},{"start":4920.764,"end":4941.38,"text":"當年為什麼要管制山地呢?就是為了我們的平地的人民跑到山區裡面然後撿到中共的空飄氣球灑下來的宣傳單就會造反,就會為匪宣傳然後為了搜查警察可以用所謂的山地清查的名義任意的衝到我們族人的家中翻箱倒櫃"},{"start":4942.541,"end":4967.694,"text":"查不到傳單 查到山豬肉也是犯法愛玉子也是違禁品而這樣的管制維持了40年這40年裡面我們的族人付出了什麼樣的代價它造成了原鄉發展的嚴重落後而我們兩三代的原住民的族人必須要離開家鄉然後到城市裡面顛沛流離的在社會邊緣裡面掙扎的討生活還要被嚴重的歧視"},{"start":4971.816,"end":4987.788,"text":"難道就因為執政者所謂的國家安全的反共需要我們人民就必須要背負這麼樣沉重的歷史代價嗎而這些白色恐怖的歷史教訓都還沒有反省清理乾淨而新的反共"},{"start":4988.969,"end":5002.587,"text":"綠色恐怖又要假借所謂的國家安全的名目借屍還魂回來了嗎而現在的法例難道還不夠國安調查人員去逮捕搜索我們的人民嗎所以我堅決反對更何況"},{"start":5006.292,"end":5021.085,"text":"上次的修法行政院他有提出院版喔這次卻沒有而法務部你們的書面意見報告也提出不同的建議所以呢我要建議我們今天的抓委"},{"start":5022.253,"end":5040.905,"text":"不需要這麼快的來逐條的審查我們等行政院的版本進入來了以後 大家還好好的討論最後我要講的是 我堅決反對倉促的修法也堅決的反對國安法修成戒嚴法 看一下"},{"start":5041.886,"end":5067.416,"text":"以前是小心匪諜就在你身邊現在我們所有的一般的民眾你們要注意啦小心啊國安就在你身邊啊以前我們的國安法是對於公務體系軍公教人員現在這個法一修一般的民眾都有可能會涉及國安法所以我的最後的結論是小心國安就在你旁邊謝謝"},{"start":5073.932,"end":5080.454,"text":"謝謝我們感謝高進素美委員執勤我們請張宏祿召委執勤我先請陸委會副主委請陸委會主委是 委員好"},{"start":5103.539,"end":5122.628,"text":"副主委剛剛有很多很多的委員質詢這一個我們今天所說的違反國安的樣態其實是非常多的對不對沒有錯沒有錯啦以前啊都說匪諜在身邊匪諜在身邊可是我們現在啊"},{"start":5125.185,"end":5149.714,"text":"我們就舉一個最近的例子好了這個副主委如果說連民政處長 民政局長都可以洩漏個資那其實我們的個資是不是也有很有可能早就被洩漏了你認為有沒有這種可能可能性很大 可能性很大 因為"},{"start":5150.914,"end":5176.544,"text":"老實講我們的很多個資是在散落在各個政府機關裡面那護證系統或者是實度出境管理系統病疫資料的管理等等那基本上所有的這些資料都是對岸有興趣的資料對嘛 所以他最想要的其實就是拿我們這個這個護證師有沒有人好 來"},{"start":5187.335,"end":5195.906,"text":"我剛說的這個可能有沒有可能是會有可能都有可能嗎那你們要查一下"},{"start":5197.994,"end":5223.309,"text":"其實在互證機關這邊來說其實它利用到所謂互證系統其實它屬於個人資料保護法所規範的個人資料所以必須依照各資法所規定的來收集或利用所以超出這樣的一個法定使用的目的之外其實就會有違反各資法的問題不知道 互證系統裡面任何人去查這個應該都會留下軌跡吧會"},{"start":5226.151,"end":5229.612,"text":"會嘛那你們要查一下啊這個問題已經發生了你知道嗎已經發生了啊如果涉及不法的話現在檢調機關已經在做查處"},{"start":5241.96,"end":5268.941,"text":"那個是檢調機關啦身為呼吸症管理系統的你們你們就全部丟給他們啊你這樣怎麼保護人民我們其實每年都會定期到22個地方政府去做集合不是啦你回答我的這等於是官話嘛對不對現在大家就在這邊講這個是很有可能發生的啊難民就要本於全責啊對不對"},{"start":5269.81,"end":5294.19,"text":"你本已全責你全台灣可能要查一下啊對不對誰有不罰使用誰有什麼的你們就要賀指未來可以發生啊這段期間誰有不罰使用的這個啊你們應該要主動查啊對不對民眾的個資欸這樣你如果這樣回答哇全台灣人都擔心了喔全台灣的人的個資不知道被賣到哪裡去了喔"},{"start":5295.083,"end":5308.012,"text":"在行政管理上當然我們會促請地方政府要去依照相關法令來做那我們也會來做監督跟做集合你們會做集合我們看看你們怎麼做"},{"start":5313.644,"end":5341.831,"text":"來那個副主委那現在啊國安法裡面確實是有一些漏洞有很多的比如說民意代表或什麼的啊去到中國其實他做什麼也都不用特別特別的做審報做什麼也都不用啊是不是報告委員其實我們國安法不是有漏洞而已其實它涵蓋的層面非常的窄"},{"start":5343.401,"end":5363.952,"text":"因為他其實只處罰兩種行為一個就是幫中共或敵對勢力竊取機密或是發展組織大概就這兩種行為但我們其實違反國家安全的行為有絕對不只這兩種啦大家可以參考一下比如說韓國的國安法"},{"start":5366.039,"end":5383.76,"text":"它是包括幫北韓政權任何的宣傳行為都是禁止的所以我們的國安法其實我不太知道說當初的立法緣由但是它其實涵蓋的範圍非常窄 處罰的行為也非常有限"},{"start":5385.462,"end":5403.793,"text":"所以我們的國安法我個人是認為應該要補正很多東西所以這才是我們今天大家要修法要來說的謝謝副主委我請那個次長次長跟司法院來我們家的次長司法院"},{"start":5411.376,"end":5429.758,"text":"我想直接請教一個很實際的問題未來如果軍事法庭恢復了以後若是退伍軍人招募現役軍人進行組織犯罪在同一案的現役軍人跟退役軍人是不是要分開審理還是合併審理"},{"start":5432.12,"end":5459.759,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前這個軍事審判相關的法案的研議還是由國防部主責那我們是跟他這個協助共同來討論未來要怎麼樣來切分那至於說這個這個相關的範圍還有這個審判權之間如何劃分還有公範的問題其實都還在研議當中那司法院呢報告委員因為軍審法是國防部主管的法規"},{"start":5460.609,"end":5483.37,"text":"那去了解應該是他們規範的範圍應該是現役軍人那非現役軍人的部分應該還是由普通法院來審理不過細節或規劃方向可能還是要問國防部比較準確所以我剛剛點出來的問題一個退役的一個現役的分開審是不是這樣的意思是不是"},{"start":5486.852,"end":5498.367,"text":"這個可能詳情要問國防部對啦大概目前了解沒關係我就是要所以啦有很多的例子我們剛我舉了幾個例子了你說國安法有沒有修正的必要"},{"start":5499.58,"end":5516.26,"text":"我的結論是這樣啊有那麼多個我剛講的那麼多案例所以國安法真的是有修正的必要啊有的人說這個不需要去修國安法但我認為有這麼多我就舉一個很明顯的例子給大家看了這沒有必要修法嗎"},{"start":5517.623,"end":5531.574,"text":"次長 你要回答我們其實也剛剛在報告裡面要回答委員 因為都有說明至少就這個退伏的機制還有這個剝奪的部分 已經在進行還有在關於參與組織的部分 我們也在進行好 謝謝我們感謝張宏祿召委質詢我們黃姐的委員"},{"start":5556.513,"end":5561.559,"text":"好謝謝主席我們先請陸委會副主委請副主委副主委先跟你請教你覺得國安法有修正的必要嗎當然有為什麼呢"},{"start":5572.082,"end":5587.888,"text":"我舉個例子像第二條我們只處罰為中共發展組織的發展主持人或是發起人但是在很多案例之中我們看到很荒謬就是說發起人被判罪但是"},{"start":5588.988,"end":5613.73,"text":"加入組織的人沒事我舉個例子像有一位這個向德恩軍方的有一位向德恩軍官那他加入了中共的組織甚至拍照片然後宣誓要向中共宣誓效忠但是國安法沒有辦法辦他因為他只是加入他不是主持人"},{"start":5615.047,"end":5635.866,"text":"所以最後是用貪汙罪 因為他有收賄 所以是用貪汙罪來辦所以這個部分我們是認為說 如果你只辦主持人發展者但是沒有辦加入者 這個會造成一個很荒謬的現象所以我們是認為說 在第二條裡面"},{"start":5639.98,"end":5666.925,"text":"參與組織者這個部分我覺得這個是應該是有共識的好 謝謝副主委的說明我認為國安法非常有修正的必要是因為就如剛剛副主委說的就是你加入的人明明就有明確的統戰跟滲透的行為但是卻辦不了它是無罪的那包括說前幾個月有四個退將也涉共諜案結果全部無罪那之前甚至有一個我也認為他是共諜檢方也起訴了叫做何建華"},{"start":5667.965,"end":5682.374,"text":"到處傳我跟小英總統的這個造假的資料然後到處用這個中共的謠言在地方上面打擊我們但是之後也被判無罪也因為證據不足那我認為是非常有有很多空間需要補起來的"},{"start":5683.294,"end":5709.739,"text":"那甚至今天早上最新的新聞進週刊中共跟台灣的幫派有交流然後甚至是收買然後作為他們的內應在地方上發展所謂的黑幫地圖那甚至大家認定說這個是不是中國奪台的計畫的一部分就在剛剛的新聞大家可以去看一下所以這麼多這麼多的例子就知道說國安法一定要修啊"},{"start":5710.259,"end":5732.087,"text":"那所以好我們先請副主委先請回請一下我們法務部的次長請教一下國安法既然要修剛剛其實也提到說我們會有版本嗎對什麼時候目前因為有這個跨機關的問題所以我們還會配合行政院的啟程會盡快來提出好那今年有機會嗎"},{"start":5733.462,"end":5755.973,"text":"應該可以好今年可以那因為這個其實也是賴總統的政策也是全台國人都非常關心的在地方上我也非常常接到民眾擔心的聲音覺得我們國安漏洞太多了那所以在這邊也是務必拜託從行政院到我們法務部大家趕快共商把所有的漏洞補起來好嗎"},{"start":5756.673,"end":5772.703,"text":"好謝謝次長的說明那再來我要講一下今天既然是要討論國安法裡面的漏洞其實我也看了一下法務部給的意見那首先當然我還是要講一下說大家知道說現在台灣最大的敵對勢力境外敵對勢力就是中國嘛"},{"start":5773.223,"end":5801.997,"text":"目前唯一一個對台明確的公開說要以武力犯台甚至是公開要侵略台灣的一個國家就是中國那我想這一點無庸置疑可是我很遺憾啦這一點我希望先取得朝野的共識因為在立法院裡面看起來不是朝野都對於反共這件事情有共識我認為非常的遺憾就連昨天在城市委員會都還有人在阻擋立委附中報備這件事情"},{"start":5802.777,"end":5824.671,"text":"光是沈博洋委員提的立委附中報備就被擋了363次我跟張宏祿召委也提了30次之多每一次都被擋就連這個最基本的防範都做不到那我認為現在的立法院讓國人非常沒有信心所以我希望在這邊還是呼籲所有的朝野立委大家先站出來反共好嗎"},{"start":5825.692,"end":5853.044,"text":"唯有這個共識我們才可以往下談國安法要不要修反滲透法要不要修兩岸條例要不要修好 那再來提到這個法條裡面的內容我就是要講一下說剛剛這個漏洞像剛剛副主委提到的參與者罰不到就我手上的例子很多是就是他們有因為他們現在的守法千變萬化然後有很多是多重身份的偽裝然後這種中間人也罰不到"},{"start":5853.624,"end":5878.075,"text":"那另外一部分是金流金流到現在就算明確感覺到他可能從中共有一些資金的來源但是他可能中間經過各式各樣的虛擬貨幣或是其他讓你有利的方式經過利益輸送可是這種利益輸送很難定義這就是我們現在遇到的困境沒有明確的金流不知道他這個中間人他的身份算不算是統戰分子"},{"start":5878.939,"end":5894.552,"text":"那這就是我們現在一直在處理的所以我在這邊先請教法務部的初步意見對於這個中間人他們有多重身份偽裝的然後對於這個資金中間的金流沒有辦法明確定義你們有沒有初步的想法我想中間人這個部分"},{"start":5895.854,"end":5921.434,"text":"這個誠如剛才委員所說的涉及到這個舉證的負擔還有這個要件的問題所以其實我們有在思考但是因為這個具體的案例的延期還需要一點時間所以我們還是會去認真思考這個問題是不是要把這個部分訂進來那因為其實目前各位提案版本裡面其實它比較著重的中間是行為的部分那金流的部分其實可能要再另外再來研議"},{"start":5922.054,"end":5946.241,"text":"好 這個就要拜託啦因為現在他們提供資金的手法非常的隱蔽而且非常的多重他們可以用各種方式給你利益輸送那就是我認為現在最重要應該要去想辦法找到這個如何定義的部分那最後一點時間那我想要再請法務部可不可以說明一下公務上因秘密的定義公務上因秘密"},{"start":5950.086,"end":5970.341,"text":"為什麼會這樣問呢 是因為其實去年有一個人叫做馬志維那這個馬志維他在立法院開會的時候跑來直播然後結果直播之後就被發現他涉嫌收購 接受中資來資助然後把國安單位的名片 國安單位的國會聯絡手冊全部送去給中共"},{"start":5971.101,"end":5996.086,"text":"那結果呢檢方當然有認為他洩密嘛認為他的主他說這些名片跟因為後來被說這些名片跟名冊不是國家機密所以就沒有辦法去定罪他那我認為這是這個是不是應該要明確定義到底什麼樣叫做公務秘密呢公務秘密的這個認定的範圍事實上是比所謂的國家機密還要廣"},{"start":5997.506,"end":6022.368,"text":"那国家机密当然有国家基因保护法相关的程序跟要件那但是公务上因秘密之事项事实上是比这个还要广的但是还是要看各个这个资讯在各个公务机关他们内部如何去认定来做这些事情那所以我们还是要个案的部分我们还是要尊重这个法院审理的结果那这个部分我们会再研议好看怎么样可以用一个更明确的定义去把它包进来"},{"start":6022.762,"end":6045.106,"text":"好 謝謝次長說明那以上我提的這幾個其實只是冰山一角而已其實因為中共統戰的手法真的太綿密了那所以光是一部國安法可能也很難把所有他們的各種的方式都包進來但是我認為接下來每一部法都有修正的必要應該要慎防統戰好 謝謝好 請王美惠留言"},{"start":6058.379,"end":6062.14,"text":"主席,我們現在入委會副主委好,請副主委是,是,委員好主委,早上好,早上主委,在這個過程當中,我們的官罰有的人覺得說他提議出來,這條不好,那條不好有的人覺得說,那條要改,那條要改我們今天"},{"start":6086.408,"end":6093.134,"text":"我們可以拜託大家來探討 為了中華民國的台灣 法律可以更好不是越修越慢 說的全都要做的事是沒辦法的每一個提出的手法 我們都尊重"},{"start":6112.33,"end":6118.974,"text":"因為國家有國家的法律所以我們今天的想法會講到國安法要如何來修正的時候來修這個法律的時候本身是覺得非常重要剛才副主委也說過我們的組織組織本身有多,加加立沒多加加立的人比組織的人"},{"start":6139.224,"end":6142.187,"text":"在這個過程當中國家會不好啦因為我覺得一個國家不管是怎樣想法就是我們想不到的路到不對的最近你看中國怎樣如何讓人家打毆的時候如何利用"},{"start":6163.707,"end":6172.651,"text":"我們的臺灣人來攻擊中華民國的臺灣人這是非常嚴重的在這裏面你有看到我們最近正在做的事和問題嗎來請副主委你回答一下我要報告我剛剛就講其實我們國安法它的規範的範圍其實很窄對其實很窄對那我舉個例子譬如說"},{"start":6192.618,"end":6207.715,"text":"如果譬如說何韻詩小姐香港那位何韻詩她曾經在來台灣被某些人潑妻那我們知道背後可能有指使但是潑妻的這個行為"},{"start":6209.448,"end":6224.134,"text":"他顯然是在我們看來他就有害國家安全因為他是針對特定的人士然後因為特定的政治主張但是在我們國安法裡面這個就沒有規範"},{"start":6230.458,"end":6240.947,"text":"我的意思就是說我們國安法確實是很窄它只處罰說發展組織跟刺探機密就只有這兩種但是國家安全絕對不只是這兩種"},{"start":6243.229,"end":6258.419,"text":"所以我們陸委會的立場就是對於委員對於社會上所要提出的任何的加強國安法的這些我們都是贊成支持的,謝謝因為在本席跟你談到,覺得一個國家如果要補充就很簡單"},{"start":6264.022,"end":6266.843,"text":"一個國家可以經濟和國際來撐平的時候,那是不簡單的啦尤其中華民國的台灣,說實在,我們的認識非常強如果在中國利用他人來打破壞的時候,這是非常的嚴重啦"},{"start":6287.076,"end":6290.537,"text":"最近我們也看到港鐵 我都覺得你的廢鐵不管是在哪裡的生育費我們都一定是要辦、要做的 這才是有負擔的國家因為有的人說 因為民進黨會把你們的資金所有的供費 廢鐵都在你們旁邊你們自己處理不好"},{"start":6325.654,"end":6335.8,"text":"所以我們在法律上面也是要收款所以我們很努力的在做,但是法律的授權不足,法律涵蓋的範圍不足"},{"start":6337.601,"end":6345.328,"text":"所以就拜託各位委員如果可以幫忙我們做一些改進或是增強 我們都很歡迎"},{"start":6346.571,"end":6351.457,"text":"對啦 因為今天想 我們這次想想這個法例 希望大家有意見 提出來探討 提出來講因為 我覺得 既然你做公務人員也好 做民運代表中央的國會的委員也好 你要去告"},{"start":6367.515,"end":6369.176,"text":"帝國的時候要到中國的時候說不用報備我都想不到是在怕什麼是在煩惱什麼因為我覺得說"},{"start":6379.517,"end":6384.658,"text":"關於立法委員附入審查的問題其實我們兩岸條例的規定就是說這個要由立法院要提出名單然後交給主管機關"},{"start":6407.805,"end":6429.91,"text":"那這麼多年來其實五院裡面像監察院司法院一些法官碰到有國安案件的他們也都會提出來那監察院裡面有碰到國安案件的這些監委然後包括他委員會裡面的工作人員等等監察院也會提出名單給我們那這些都是要審查的"},{"start":6430.67,"end":6450.098,"text":"但是這麼多年來其實立法院從來沒有提出過名單從來沒有從來沒有所以對我們來說的話這個就是造成很大的困擾等於是兩岸條例有規定請各機關提出名單但是因為立法院從來沒提"},{"start":6452.139,"end":6457.462,"text":"因為本席跟你談到這一個是說 所了解是怎樣不要站在範圍裡面我也讓蘇貞霞聽到沒有感動的立委的說你不要讓我們去 先來你們說 再回來跟報備我說聽差一點 跟你要去做什麼你不用報備 再回來跟說的 跟警察說"},{"start":6480.535,"end":6504.969,"text":"沒有意義的事情啦所謂你要怎麼可以我們如果沒有那個法他如果沒有報備你也沒辦法喔其實我們對於譬如說縣市長然後如果是立委的如果立委的話我們這些審查我們都基本上是尊重也就是說雖然說是小查雖然說是審查但是其實是報備有些人要報不報啦"},{"start":6509.292,"end":6511.213,"text":"但是我的感覺是覺得現在的報紙也很方便的直播也很方便的啦什麼人有期待一個國家什麼人有期待一個國家應該大家都看到啦我的感覺是覺得"},{"start":6526.101,"end":6531.144,"text":"應該要有信請才可以去因為是怎樣那個國家對中華民國的台灣太壞了不管是要我們挑戰不管是要說我們的排位所以在這個環境裡面我覺得這一點我們要繼續堅持下去繼續提出我們的提案你看300多次了"},{"start":6556.176,"end":6565.367,"text":"當然我們還是要繼續我們要互相加油因為台灣這個土地中華民國不能讓憂心人被我們破壞了以上是 謝謝委員好 我們請黃國昌委員"},{"start":6589.635,"end":6596.821,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請陸委會副主委法務部政事以及國土安全辦的主任好所以我很好三位都上來了嘛好 時間的關係 問一問後一開始啊國家安全法的主管機關是哪一個機關"},{"start":6618.886,"end":6646.728,"text":"關國元行政院是有行政院嘛那所以今天有誰代表行政院發言關國元今天院裡面有我們國土安全辦公室好OK來第一個問題喔中國啊對台灣的敵意啊我相信所有的人都知道啊目前對台灣的國家安全啊造成最大威脅的就是中華人民共和國啊政策上面的立場洩密"},{"start":6647.965,"end":6660.57,"text":"給中華人民共和國跟泄密給一般的外國刑罰應該要與以區別對待講得更具體一點泄密給中華人民共和國應該要加重處罰這件事情行政院的立場如何行政院有沒有立場我剛特別請可以代表行政院立場的人上來回答這個問題行政院贊不贊成"},{"start":6674.741,"end":6697.631,"text":"包括委員這個涉及到我們內部還要再做一些討論還要討論喔討論非常久了捏跟委員報告我想我們今天出席國土辦出席主要是因為涉及到關鍵基礎設施的事項來進行出席那所以呢剛剛我就問嘛可以代表行政院發言的是誰嘛要不然各個部會國家足球隊踢來踢去的"},{"start":6700.155,"end":6726.218,"text":"說中國是我們的境外敵對勢力對境外敵對勢力我說洩密給他們要加重處罰怎麼每一個人都畏畏縮縮的啊行政院到現在喔你剛剛的回答是說這件事情還要研議是不是還需要研議多久跨部會的事項剛剛不是講得很清楚了嗎這個主管機關是行政院今天行政院是由你代表回答我有說錯嗎"},{"start":6728.174,"end":6752.03,"text":"報告委員今天因為這個涉及到院的奇怪今天國家安全法喔第二條也好第三條也好第七條也好第八條也好全部涉及的條文如果主管機關是行政院的話今天可以代表誰代表行政院回答是法務部嗎還是陸委會還是沒有人可以代表那要不然今天辦這個質詢到底有什麼意義"},{"start":6753.604,"end":6775.386,"text":"是由法務部代表嗎委員今天的邀請名單是由內政委員會提供的是 這我知道啊沒有關係 因為是關於刑法的部分那我們不能說我們代表行政院回答但是這個基本的立場我們可知贊同以上你說這個立場法務部是贊同的那很奇怪啊因為我上個禮拜"},{"start":6777.157,"end":6790.619,"text":"這是要法治委員會質詢法務部部長啊我直接問部長啊說洩密給中國要加重處罰這件事情啊結果部長含糊其詞欸跟今天國土辦的立場一樣欸那今天你是次長"},{"start":6791.981,"end":6816.311,"text":"市長代表法務部表示贊成就對了我想這個部分因為還是要經過法制作業的研議程序所以呢所以是在沒有經過法制作業的研議程序你個人表示贊成就對了所以你是個人贊成還是代表法務部贊成還是代表行政院贊成我個人的意見你個人意見嘛好來我一次講啦讓跨部會的代表帶意見回去給行政院"},{"start":6817.185,"end":6837.103,"text":"我向來的主張啊洩密給中國刑度就是要加重處罰但我覺得很奇怪啊我從第九屆國會的時候再修國家安全法再修國家機密保護法民進黨所展現出來的態度是什麼都反對啦都反對啦"},{"start":6838.18,"end":6863.074,"text":"上面這些都有當初協商的紀錄啦有我跟邱泰山尋答的紀錄啊全部都反對說泄密給中國不用加重處罰我從第九屆國會的時候看到這個立法態度我就覺得很奇怪啊中國是我們最大的外患泄密給中國加重處罰有什麼錯為什麼為什麼民進黨表示反對"},{"start":6864.482,"end":6879.975,"text":"到這一屆國會的時候我們所提出的國家機密保護法一樣泄密給中國台灣民眾黨黨團所提出來的修法加重處罰泄密給中國跟泄密給我們的盟友處罰就是應該不一樣"},{"start":6881.65,"end":6900.343,"text":"最重要的政策立場我到目前為止整個行政院沒有看到這樣子一個清楚的表態這是立法程序作業的問題嗎這應該是立法政策的問題嘛你立法政策要定了你立法政策要定了接下來在法條的設計上"},{"start":6901.784,"end":6926.7,"text":"都是相對簡單的問題啦好 今天針對有關於啊洩密給中國我們在法定型的處理上 所謂法定型回到今天討論的國家安全法就是第七條 第八條的規定嘛洩密給中國不管是機密不管是公務上的秘密不管是關鍵基礎設施上面陰秘密的事項法定型都調高法務部贊不贊成"},{"start":6928.849,"end":6957.022,"text":"我想這個部的意見還是要經過這個研究所以今天沒有辦法表態 來 陸委會讚不讚成我們陸委會對於任何增強國家安全的那個方法跟措施我們都贊成所以呢 副主委你回答得非常藝術啊那你就直接講你贊成就好了嘛我個人贊成你個人 次長個人贊成 副主委個人也贊成 來國土辦的讚不贊成"},{"start":6959.062,"end":6965.248,"text":"就我們主管的關鍵基礎設施防護裡面因為也有相關的法令規定所以當然我們做這樣的一個認同"},{"start":6966.724,"end":6994.855,"text":"我們接下來處理法案的時候就見證章了啦我希望到處理的時候行政部門不要推三阻四的說還要再研議接下來第二個重要的問題啦剛剛有其他的委員問到現在綠色共諜橫行府院黨全部都淪陷了當然執政黨的委員幫執政黨講話這個我都可以理解我也沒有怪執政黨的委員但我們現在要討論的重要的問題是什麼"},{"start":6995.56,"end":7023.138,"text":"最後的問題是當我開始追這件事情的時候我看到的是什麼我看到的事情是依照現行的辦法這些可以接觸到機密的人要喊請法務部調查局辦理特殊查核但問題是就沒辦啊就沒辦啊應該辦理特殊查核卻沒有辦理特殊查核來 請教一下行政院的立場應該辦卻沒有辦要不要追究責任"},{"start":7026.821,"end":7042.248,"text":"還是這個要請法務部次長回答應該辦沒有辦要不要追究責任因為這個部分所涉及的機關首長也不是我們我們是受理調查局是受理連一個基本態度都不敢給喔"},{"start":7043.598,"end":7056.721,"text":"如果有違私的話當然要辦啦好如果有違私的話當然要辦來怎麼辦依照現行法法律的效果應該要辦特殊查核卻沒有辦特殊查核法律效果是什麼來請教一下"},{"start":7060.212,"end":7079.487,"text":"這個是公務人員服務法的規定啦所以咧應該要辦沒有辦嘛那法律效果是什麼這顯然非常重大的國安漏洞嘛應該要辦特殊查核沒有辦特殊查核結果搞到去洩密洩密給共匪責任可以不用追究嗎來請教次長"},{"start":7083.764,"end":7101.293,"text":"呃 這個部分應該是人事主管法規所以你也沒辦法回答嘛好 沒關係我下面的意見喔 三位再帶回去啦我也不曉得今天這個詢答到底是怎麼排的找了三個人來沒有一個人有辦法代表這個法的主管機關行政院講話我具體的意見啦 是這個樣子"},{"start":7102.774,"end":7118.488,"text":"這些該辦沒有辦特殊查核的從外交部到總統府我具體的意見啦是沒有依法辦特殊查核的出發要有明確的法律效果沒有明確的法律效果大家都在混嘛"},{"start":7119.42,"end":7145.576,"text":"全部的人都在混啊發現應該辦沒有辦誰要負責國家足球隊又出來啦踢來踢去那我就問一個最核心的關鍵法律問題應該辦沒有辦的法律效果是什麼現行法複製缺乳我代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團在這邊直接講針對這件事情重大法律上面的缺漏必須要科與法則這件事情我們會提出啊修正動議把它補強好謝謝"},{"start":7150.834,"end":7175.199,"text":"好請吳清明委員好 召委我們一會同仁請我們陸委會副主委好請副主委法務部我們的黃次長黃次長"},{"start":7178.607,"end":7193.179,"text":"是 委員好副主任 你好 針對今天國安法的修訂其實我們今天早上 我看到很多委員 大家都有提出他們各種的看法 其實你說在我們的國家安全尤其滲透 在最近和過去實在非常嚴重 這也是需要大家來做"},{"start":7208.141,"end":7218.449,"text":"對國家安全一定要更加緊密大家來討論所以本席站在說今個不管在野兩黨以及民眾黨大家提出的意見其實都很多都可以讓我們陸委會、法務部、相關單位包括國安會大家共同來制定一套"},{"start":7234.081,"end":7249.851,"text":"比較符合我們台灣因為台灣大家都知道有中華的問題存在所以為了我們國家的安全也是需要大家共同來提出因為我看我們港鐵案起訴的人數159個為了國家的安全但是有很多是沒有起訴"},{"start":7256.975,"end":7279.871,"text":"所以說一定要制定一個希望說我們不管陸委會法務部是不是說要擬定一個政策一個時間就我們的行政院辦趕快來其他的我們今天的共識大家集中趕快聯繫一套符合我們台灣的需要好不好是不是請我們法務部"},{"start":7281.215,"end":7303.8,"text":"是謝謝委員的這個支持那我想剛才我們也有提到就是賴總統他宣布之後事實上行政院已經啟動整體各機關全面來檢視了這個動作那今天各位委員所提示的相關的這個議題我們也都會帶回去在這個研議的過程中儘速來連理儘速來提出以上各位委員報告"},{"start":7304.724,"end":7310.948,"text":"好 一定要從重從遠可以好止滲透因為我們台灣畢竟是一個島型的國家我們都不容許滲透的問題"},{"start":7320.515,"end":7335.083,"text":"所以這個部分,也要拜託再來呢,我們可以說,這次,我看到有很多我們當年提出的版本所以,有很多我們的國安法,第二條、第四條、第三條"},{"start":7336.267,"end":7344.254,"text":"所以制定出來都值得我們大家共同來討論現在我請問我們的陸委會、我們的副主委未來針對滲透這個部分,我們陸委會要怎樣來有效的克制"},{"start":7355.568,"end":7370.659,"text":"目前我們陸委會主要還是依照兩岸人民關係條例但是兩岸人民關係條例它主要是一些行政法行政法的部分那個嚇阻力量不高"},{"start":7372.782,"end":7399.148,"text":"那反滲透法它其實有一些規定但是它也相對的比較範圍比較窄反滲透法主要是規定說是在選舉期間選舉期間然後中共的資金然後影響候選人但是它規範的時間就是時間上很短然後規範的活動就是很窄 範圍很窄"},{"start":7400.228,"end":7428.313,"text":"所以我們 我剛剛就一再講就是說國家安全的這個相關的事項非常多那中共的滲透行為你說得出100項他一定開始想出101項所以這個部分我覺得就是說從陸委會的立場我們贊成或支持所有 任何能夠加強國家安全的措施那各位委員所提出來的法條我們都很支持謝謝好"},{"start":7430.017,"end":7448.136,"text":"因為北溪這邊手上有一個一份資料,對於我們的海巡同仁在海巡服役期間因為在網路接觸到中國主動聯繫,聯繫他們提供的叫做泰達幣,就是虛擬貨幣"},{"start":7450.285,"end":7462.812,"text":"所以說包括海型這個部分我們覺得這個滲透尤其現在是公務部門以及我們的海型跟金裝我相信"},{"start":7465.595,"end":7479.555,"text":"這絕對不是一個少數啦既然被揭露出來應該還有很多類似的案件所以這是我們未來要怎樣去防範不然這真的未來會越來越嚴重"},{"start":7483.165,"end":7503.719,"text":"委員講得非常正確就是說現在現在很多都是用利誘而且是小利我們覺得是有點痛心因為其實所牽涉的利益都不是很大但是就是會有人願意上鉤被吸收然後現在支付利益的方式"},{"start":7504.96,"end":7532.321,"text":"又越來越多然後現在所謂虛擬貨幣等等那對查緝的就是說對查緝的工作造成很大困難這樣那所以我們還是希望希望說各位委員能夠支持那未來的這個國家安全法或相關法律都能夠能夠加強謝謝本席一定支持啦我們就是要從重重演現在去制定好不好好謝謝"},{"start":7539.329,"end":7541.251,"text":"好 請徐宇臻委員謝謝主席 我們請陸委會梁副主委跟法務部黃士傑次長好 請副主委跟次長委員好副主委還有次長兩位好"},{"start":7561.557,"end":7582.886,"text":"根據國家安全局在今年1月12號發布的共諜案的滲透手法分析你可以看到我們這四年來短短的四年來成長了三倍那面對這麼嚴峻的一個滲透的情勢特別是民進黨內部被滲透的那麼厲害包括總統府立法院國安會外交部民進黨部那在4月9號的這個"},{"start":7584.847,"end":7601.163,"text":"民進黨的中常會賴清德總統就為了防堵民進黨的黨工被滲透而提出了要研擬急難救助辦法我這邊想要問的是總統心中的國家安全難道只限於黨工的安全嗎同樣是因為經濟困難債務壓力而淪為對岸滲透對象的普通國人"},{"start":7605.567,"end":7620.323,"text":"他們難道不值得國家提供警戒救助嗎在這邊我想請教一下副主委梁副主委有多少被起訴的共諜是因為債務問題而被迫協助對岸那陸委會是否掌握這群社會弱勢經濟困難的族群比例"},{"start":7621.524,"end":7644.611,"text":"具體的數字我們手上沒有但是確實有很多個案就像我剛剛講的是為了迎頭小利那特別是發生在志願役的士兵那他們常常是因為網路博弈或是打電玩然後就是這個錢其實金額都不高"},{"start":7645.322,"end":7668.206,"text":"副主委不過我想在這個4月9號中常會也提到說事實上民進黨工被賄賂的金額比軍人還高所以說針對賴清德總統對於這個經濟弱勢他認為是滲透的一個破口所以他設立黨工的急難救助辦法所以請問副主委那這樣子政府要不要也設立一個這樣的急難救助辦法來因應因為債務問題經濟困難而成為滲透目標的國人"},{"start":7671.724,"end":7686.071,"text":"我不太知道那個對黨工的部分但是我剛剛向委員報告就是說我們現在發生的很多是在軍隊裡面那都是就是因為欠了一些債因為網路博弈或打電玩這樣子"},{"start":7689.613,"end":7706.96,"text":"這個問題剛剛梁副主任也是承認是有這樣的問題這個國防部要想一個辦法就是說除了國防部我現在請教您的是除了國防部之外其實我們現在看到目前有被爆出來甚至收到進鑒交保的幾乎都是民進黨的"},{"start":7708.496,"end":7729.324,"text":"不管是黨工或者是在民進在這個總統府立法院國安會外交部曾經服務過的那針對這個部分的話我是我剛提到嘛就是我們的賴慶德總統他同時也是賴慶德主席他提出了其實應該要設立一個急難救助辦法那你覺得我們的政府有沒有考慮要適用這樣子的急難救助的辦法"},{"start":7731.624,"end":7760.305,"text":"我覺得急難救助應該就是對所有人只要你弱勢就是應該要急難救助如果以這樣子的一個推論但是用急難救助來處理或是預防間諜行為我覺得可能比較困難一點因為很多做間諜的人他可能還是商人可能是商人可能是本身蠻有錢但是他還要追求更大的利益"},{"start":7760.905,"end":7786.159,"text":"所以現在是民進黨的話才可以有這樣子的待遇一般的人是不行嗎因為我不太知道說民進黨的措施是什麼這樣子所以我這個沒辦法回答您可以去看一下這個在4月9號的民進黨中常會有提出這樣的一個討論那我們也希望如果真的是這樣的話應該要一視同仁嘛不該只有民進黨的黨工有這樣一個急難救助那如果是甚至剛剛有提到就是說如果今天是台商因為經濟困難而被迫協助對岸收集資料"},{"start":7789.601,"end":7818.842,"text":"陸委會會不會提供他結案救助還是直接用反滲透法來辦理?海商通常不是為了經濟困難而是想要謀求更大的利益那這樣子會用這個反滲透法給他辦理嗎?看他具體觸犯什麼我想應該標準要一致司法的標準要一致不可以說對於民進黨黨工就這樣溫柔對待那對於這個國人就嚴刑峻罰那另外再想請教一下梁副主委就是既然我們剛剛看到你的報告就是"},{"start":7819.562,"end":7836.248,"text":"陸委會這麼關心國家安全法的修法可是我今天看到就只有本院委員提出的修法版本但沒有行政院版請問何時可以提出行政院版的草案是現在正在加緊腳步大概預計何時會提出行政院版本"},{"start":7837.108,"end":7866.188,"text":"我想會用最快的時間因為這個案子牽涉到各個部門所以有行政院負責統合那我這邊沒有辦法幫行政院回答但是會加快腳步因為如果沒有行政院版本的話大家會認為是在打假球啊是 那也拜託委員就到時候如果行政院提案的話就是讓如果行政院提案是符合整個全民的利益的話如果行政院提案是那當然請教一下就是兩位就是就國安法"},{"start":7866.848,"end":7892.907,"text":"國安法第二條定向第一款的規定就是任何人不得為外國大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力或其設立或實質控制的各項組織機構團體或其派遣人之行為那這一次有委員提案要求增加或為其組織機構團體之成員或參與活動那請問梁副主委這個是要限制參與活動也就是"},{"start":7894.81,"end":7913.458,"text":"要全面禁止兩岸交流嗎要取消兩岸雙層論壇嗎要取消宗教交流學術交流嗎請問一下這個陸委會針對這樣的意見你們支持這樣的修法嗎我快速回答一下因為我們現在國安法第二條只處罰發展組織的人但是加入組織的人沒有懲罰"},{"start":7914.338,"end":7941.017,"text":"還有參加活動因為你加入組織所以你會參加活動或者是藉由參加活動來加入組織所以對我們來說的話就是說加入組織的人一定要受到懲罰因為過去很多案子都是我現在請教您的是針對這個修法針對就是要參與活動的所以未來是不是要取消兩岸雙城論壇未來是不是要取消宗教交流未來是不是要取消學術交流"},{"start":7941.577,"end":7960.964,"text":"不是 他一定要符合這個組織的概念不會因為單純的活動那以這一條來說 我們可以看到第一項是任何人不得為外國不只大陸地區嘛 還有外國那是不是我們跟外國的交流也都會受到限制這樣台灣會不會真的變成鎖國的一個狀態我想不太可能啊"},{"start":7966.085,"end":7979.921,"text":"我們這第二條的修正就是以目前行政院各部門的態度來講就是說要把參與組織的這樣要收到要把它加進去這樣子那如果你只是單純的活動"},{"start":7981.303,"end":7996.362,"text":"或是說你加入什麼外國外的可是你這樣的法條喔你這樣的法條的限制的話就已經讓人家覺得我今天去參加一個宗教交流活動一個學術交流活動就有可能違法違反國家安全法這個部分是不是可以請次長回覆一下"},{"start":7997.043,"end":8025.326,"text":"我想我們在今天的意見裡面我們都有很明確的說明就是就剛才這個梁副主委有提到參與組織的部分目前是一個漏洞但是就具體的構成要件跟文字我們還會再研議不是以今天委員會提案的文字版本為準對 所以這樣的條文你也認為不是那麼適宜嗎是 是 我們會再對 這樣等於未來連外國我們都不能去參加文通不能去交流 不能去學術交流那這樣的話我們台灣不變鎖國"},{"start":8026.367,"end":8030.089,"text":"好 丁薛忠 丁薛忠 丁薛忠委員不在我們請鄭天才委員"},{"start":8064.242,"end":8092.529,"text":"主席各位委員有請這個入委會主委好請副主委委員好這個主委好這個今天國家安全法的條文的修正當然都是這個立委的版本沒有行政院的版本這裡面這個第二條任何人不得為外國大陸地區香港澳門境外勢力"},{"start":8094.123,"end":8122.775,"text":"敵對勢力或其他其所設立或實質控制之各類組織機關團體或其派遣之下類行為所以這個國安法第二條當然還有其他條文在過去的一個分界怎麼樣去釐清這個分界尤其是言論自由跟這個相關的這些怎麼樣去做"},{"start":8123.721,"end":8151.114,"text":"過去都做得很分界很好但是目前最近尤其是在陸委會的一個掌控之下解釋之下執行之下跟過去民進黨前輩所要求的言論自由已經有越來越大的一個落差"},{"start":8152.233,"end":8177.741,"text":"而且就造成人民的恐懼我今天特別督郎國督郎國這樣有沒有違反國安法我不太懂其他的跟大陸有關的你就很懂對我們的督郎國的成立你就不太懂沒關係我們一個一個來"},{"start":8182.557,"end":8203.416,"text":"民國88年了陳水扁總統跟我們原住民組簽了新夥伴關係的協定協定按照這個這個相關的法律是協定就是企業了條約了就是條約協定就是條約陳水扁總統他當總統之後親自"},{"start":8210.12,"end":8236.882,"text":"再肯認原來他選舉之前的協定所以重新再肯認所以重新簽名重新各族派代表重新簽名陳水扁總統也簽名都有陳水扁總統的名字所以對於原住民族而言這個就是我們跟原住民族跟中華民國的條約"},{"start":8240.636,"end":8267.97,"text":"協定就是條約的名稱就是我們的原住民主跟中華民國的條約當然很可惜在他任內沒有完成沒有完成而且他在發表文章的時候參加這個會議的時候特別提到國中有國國中有國所以都南國"},{"start":8270.578,"end":8298.972,"text":"就這樣因應而生不只是督郎國還有其他的我們原住民族所以在這樣一個情形之下這個對原住民族而言如果按照目前的一個入委會在執行這些國安法或是相關這個兩岸地區人民條例的這樣的一個做法的時候"},{"start":8300.606,"end":8328.443,"text":"從過去最近的這些案例我們原族民族也受到恐懼你知道嗎我們會受到恐懼那個言論自由跟那個的那個分界越來越模糊變成事務委會在解釋執行司法機關在解釋了對我們原族民族真的是很恐懼很恐懼"},{"start":8329.682,"end":8349.163,"text":"所以這個部分這個督郎國所以這個部分真的要去審慎因為時間的關係最早一直存在的台灣民政府台灣民政府到底有沒有違反國安法"},{"start":8350.515,"end":8376.129,"text":"他們一直認為不只是台灣民政府還有很多我們的在網路上一直傳一直傳說有的說是台灣是屬於日本的領土要成為日本的一個行政區域也有很多說我們是美國的一個州我們應該要歸回美國都有這樣的論述"},{"start":8378.625,"end":8405.036,"text":"不只是論述提出來公開的報告委員 臺灣民政府它涉及到的有詐騙 逃漏稅等等所以並沒有用國安法來處理不是 它是後來才有詐騙所以這個部分的這個就是說你輕視了這個兩個不同的如果一個人詐騙然後就說他違反"},{"start":8406.392,"end":8412.085,"text":"這個也是一個需要去思考所以怎麼樣去言論自由跟國安"},{"start":8414.15,"end":8440.616,"text":"相關尤其兩岸人民關係條例這個部分這個還是要去審慎是 謝謝我們陸委會的解釋我們一定是尊重言論自由那目前看來民調70%的人大概都支持我們的做法我從我學法律的觀點跟我當公務員30年的觀點來看的時候包括很多的學者去看你們的一個執行"},{"start":8441.604,"end":8446.865,"text":"你們的論述就不是就已經脫離了言論自由以上好我們請徐欣穎委員謝謝主席本席有請法務部黃次長以及司法院吳法官好請司法院"},{"start":8474.779,"end":8498.685,"text":"市長好還有我們吳法官我想保障國家安全應該是我們所有國人都應該支持而且也是大家有共識的那我們今天呢國安法的部分修正草案我們要來審理所以我們當然希望把國安法把它修好"},{"start":8501.752,"end":8516.399,"text":"能夠把國安法修好讓人民有所依循也讓執法單位能夠知道怎麼樣執法所以本席在這裡要先請教我們法務部跟司法院"},{"start":8518.183,"end":8545.068,"text":"本席有看到我們法務部跟司法院的書面意見都很明確的有指出我們這一次的修法的草案內容是有一些文字是不是過於含糊過於籠統所以首先第一個本席想請教有關涉及國家安全涉及國家安全它具體的判斷標準是什麼"},{"start":8545.928,"end":8565.719,"text":"公共利益的範圍又要如何界定由誰來界定那我想分別請法務部跟司法院來提出你們的簡要的見解是我想不好意思跟委員報告因為今天所提出來的很多的草案後面都涉及到刑事處罰"},{"start":8566.839,"end":8584.531,"text":"所以刑罰的部分當然會有檢察機關會指揮司法檢察機關來偵辦然後最後如果起訴的話會由法院來審理所以具體的構成要件的判斷會依照個案的事實在這個程序裡面去確認那當然所以每一個刑罰的"},{"start":8585.792,"end":8614.654,"text":"這個範圍 比方說的行為它的構成要件符合比例原則跟明確性原則這個就是我們在立法的時候必須要審慎來思考所以構成要件要非常明確您認同吧這也是我們的書面意見指出的那請吳法官報告委員 正如委員所說的構成要件明確性確實是很重要的刑法原則所以在本院今天的報告裡面譬如說對於委員陳冠廷的21人的提案"},{"start":8615.253,"end":8638.721,"text":"也特別提到說呢如果修正層涉及國家安全或公共利益這個部分含義是非明確所以我們見請釐清又例如說對於委員王定宇等16人所提的這個草案呢本院也特別提到說草案的第7條的第4項有些記載比較簡略的部分那是不是應該要加以序名我們也有特別指摘謝謝委員"},{"start":8639.141,"end":8654.65,"text":"好謝謝所以我想這個兩個單位都有這樣的一個具體的意見那所以在我們正式逐條討論修法之前本席想請教司法院是不是可以在"},{"start":8655.41,"end":8678.898,"text":"看一個月還是兩個月內可以提出針對這次的這些版本的完整的法律專業的評估意見包括各修法的版本和憲政體制以及司法審查標準的衝突與調和分析以及具體的修法建議可不可以請司法院看一個月或兩個月內可以嗎"},{"start":8679.598,"end":8706.73,"text":"提出針對我們這個比較因為我知道你們這次報告都簡單幾頁但是我們給更長的時間針對這個修法的內容是不是可以提出比較具體的修法建議兩個月可以嗎還是一個月委員的意思就是除了今天的本院的報告之外就是針對今天修法的內容可以更具體的可以嗎兩個月嗎你們看一個月還兩個月可以嗎"},{"start":8708.748,"end":8728.901,"text":"如果要提出這樣的報告可能比較需要研議那可否比較長的時間可以可以可以那大概多久委員剛剛講最長是兩個月嗎兩個月可以嘛那法務部是不是也可以在兩個月內就刑事法制與執行風險評估報告具體的檢討條文的明確性"},{"start":8733.164,"end":8751.941,"text":"可执行性我先讲完好不好以及刑度的适当性并且对于侦查与起诉可能产生的执法争议提出具体的建议针对这次的法条修正的草案跟委员报告因为刚才在讨论的过程"},{"start":8752.801,"end":8767.591,"text":"我们的口头报告里面都已经有报告针对里面部分的这个条文其实目前行政院已经在盘点当中所以您的意思是说会有行政院版的行政院版预计应该会更久吧"},{"start":8769.132,"end":8796.849,"text":"目前还没有这个明确的期程但是我们已经都在进行会加速来办所以行政院整合的时候都有你们的意见那没问题我们希望有行政院版那最后本席还是想要请教最后因为时间的关系那请问这个两个单位我们至今尚未指定国安法的主管机关那到底谁有权指导事宜"},{"start":8797.469,"end":8820.217,"text":"所以這主管機關是行政院嗎還是對跟我們報告過去的慣例是由行政院那因為底下的條文其實分別有不同的部會在負責包含本部內政部跟國防部所以行政院統合嗎對由行政院來統合所以我們的負責的人是行政院長是"},{"start":8823.038,"end":8832.206,"text":"因為本席看到在修正案裡面很多有寫到主管機關要怎麼樣怎麼樣所以這個我們還是要確立主管機關好那再來"},{"start":8834.746,"end":8858.133,"text":"對 我們整個國安法的修法那我們也要兼顧我們的民主與人權所以國安跟民主人權的平衡點到底在哪裡所以我們想要請教你們認為目前一些修正草案的模糊性跟廣泛性它是不是存在侵害了人民的言論自由集會結社的自由以及資訊自主權的實質風險"},{"start":8862.309,"end":8874.767,"text":"而且行政院和司法院目前審查或評估法案的時候都會有一套明確的人權影響評估機制所以是否能夠進行影響評估"},{"start":8876.557,"end":8893.589,"text":"跟委員報告人權影響評估機制這個在院的人權的小組裡面事實上是今年年初才這個核定之前都是在試辦那所以這個目前行政院正在翻班刑當中那假設本法案未來"},{"start":8894.489,"end":8913.389,"text":"有這個要適用的話 行政委會指示好 最後就是請吳法官就是剛剛本席所說的這次你們看到這次修正草案是不是它中間的這種模糊性廣泛性存在了侵害人民的言論自由集會結社自由以及資訊自主的實質風險 簡單回答"},{"start":8917.852,"end":8932.646,"text":"報告委員那今天本院提出來是就這個構成要件明確性等等部分可能做的一些建議或者是提出意見那是不是會產生這樣的一個後續的情況呢可能還要看個案來認定謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝兩位林靜萱林靜萱林靜萱委員不在請吳宗憲委員"},{"start":8953.187,"end":8980.59,"text":"謝謝 我們麻煩法務部還有司法院好 請法務部跟司法院委員好好 各位早安因為我看了那個民進黨委員的版本那我就那個第二條的部分我想請教一下因為我有看過司法院跟那個法務部你們對於這個草案的論述"},{"start":8983.055,"end":9000.844,"text":"尤其是齁 我覺得最近發生很多共諜案那昨天還前天李永昌不是說國民黨這是那個幽靈聯署這個是犯罪組織 事實上幽靈聯署那個偽造文書並不是五年以上中 所以依照我國目前的組織犯罪條例第二條 其實"},{"start":9001.721,"end":9026.081,"text":"那個不算是組織犯罪 但是什麼東西算組織犯罪就是最近發生在總統府 國安會 外交部 還有民進黨民主學院還有民進黨立法院 黨團 都常有共諜那這個就完全符合組織犯罪的規定對不對 三年以上 五年以上有期徒刑所以我再說 這個我們必須一定要很注重國安的安全而且國家安全是每個人的責任"},{"start":9027.096,"end":9044.584,"text":"那我想請教一下齁我先請問痾正次啦齁痾第一款齁第二條第一款那個發起資助主持操縱指揮發展組織目前的起訴比例定罪比例你有資料嗎痾有資料嗎好請問您稍後這多少我請我們市長來依靠"},{"start":9054.293,"end":9082.021,"text":"跟委員報告那針對那個國家安全法的案件那起訴的案件在一百零三年的時候是有八十一件定罪率嗎起訴率定罪率目前定罪率是八十一趴好起訴率呢起訴率是這個二十八點六十二點三抱歉所以起訴率蠻低的嗎"},{"start":9083.001,"end":9085.305,"text":"130件裡面有81件起訴那起訴率是62.3%你剛不是說20幾嗎"},{"start":9092.605,"end":9119.296,"text":"不是不是 我看錯了好 沒關係 那不然這個到時候我再請教你們一下因為再給我一個比較精確的數據我不可能再提供數據因為我看了一下法務部跟司法院你們對於第二款的版本草案司法院認為說含義不明確法務部認為範圍不夠具體那所以說對於這一次委員所提出來的這個草案第二條第二款你們是不是不支持啊"},{"start":9120.22,"end":9126.275,"text":"我們都建請在座建請在座OK那就就是有疑慮司法院呢"},{"start":9127.845,"end":9151.982,"text":"也正如本院提出的報告就是有一些需要調整之處那我想說這就是司法的專業啦因為有一些人提出一些國安的法條那我們有疑問或我們我們有疑問在那邊說很多人說那你就是中共同路人我想不能這樣我們都法律人事實上這個法條的規範他從公務上面變成是涉及國家安全及公益上面這範圍變得非常的不明確"},{"start":9152.722,"end":9167.901,"text":"那如果這個因為這樣然後卡的罪又這麼重我覺得這不是一個立法委員一個禁止的立法委員該做了而且這個會變成到時候執政黨可以拿這個來作為政治攻擊我在這邊先聲明我非常支持國家安全"},{"start":9168.502,"end":9187.325,"text":"我也非常支持來自於任何一個國家或地區對我們的攻擊或滲透我也絕對反對但是我希望相關的法律在研擬的時候必須要明確尤其是罪非常的重那我過往我看到了國安法反滲透法等等我都發現有一個問題就是他的"},{"start":9188.085,"end":9211.983,"text":"後來的無罪率很高也就是說一開始他問了非常多的人鄰里非常多人因為去大陸旅遊或吃個飯然後就被起訴是被約談起訴結果後面就大量的被約談的人被大量牽結不起訴那被起訴的又大量的判無罪那我覺得這個都是老民那甚至呢他就是為了選舉在做一些動作那不要讓我們"},{"start":9213.935,"end":9227.086,"text":"覺得政府怎麼走向是希望讓國家走向寒蟬效應這個是我們不期待的時間的關係我最後我就提一個我想提你們"},{"start":9228.021,"end":9246.712,"text":"提供給我一些資料我希望法務部在一個月內能夠把違反國安法的起訴率有罪定罪率這個資料給我然後還有不起訴跟判無罪的理由提供一些我們立法建議還有這構成要件是有明確這個部分能夠給我"},{"start":9248.593,"end":9266.597,"text":"然後另外就是一週內給我們一份2023年到2024年總統跟立委大選期間違反選罷法反滲透法這些上次我其實在SAR法治已經有提過請你們把這個資料給我們因為我覺得國家安全事先的防範重於事後的追陳"},{"start":9267.625,"end":9282.841,"text":"結果你們把重點放在事後追審而且還規定的不明確這樣是不對的那下週我自己在法治委員會我有安排我希望說國安會國安局的人能夠一併來說明我也希望說大家不要動不動就請假或是用一些理由說不要過來因為"},{"start":9284.554,"end":9301.985,"text":"國家安全全民都注意不能一邊喊很大聲抗中保台國家安全另外一面然後你連來都不來齁這是我希望下週在市長法治委員會開會的時候大家都能夠到我們一起來為國家安全能夠加油不要讓國家安全變成是打擊政治議題的工具謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":9307.386,"end":9314.851,"text":"好 宗教兵 宗教兵 宗教兵委員不在 何欣淳 何欣淳何欣淳委員不在 陳冠廷 陳冠廷陳冠廷委員不在 我們請吳思耀委員謝謝主席國家安全很重要 只有4分鐘顯然不夠 爭取多一點點時間 謝謝有請我們黃次長跟梁副主委好 黃次長跟副主委"},{"start":9338.51,"end":9356.055,"text":"好我把握時間喔有兩個主題第一個有借選就會有借罷也就是中共對於台灣的民主選舉或是民主的罷免我們有沒有什麼超前部署的因應防範第二個我回到國安法立法院不應當是局外人來下頁"},{"start":9357.774,"end":9381.554,"text":"袁紅冰教授他一再的在警示著就以去年他很早的就揭示了習近平指示戰場就在立法院中共只要鎖定結盟立法院的同路人就可以用民主來破壞台灣的民主他是現在進行式所以袁教授所說的事情在過去一年的國會現場觀察起來一一應驗了下一頁"},{"start":9382.455,"end":9406.135,"text":"所以袁教授再一次的示警就是這幾天中國將介入台灣的大罷免的行動罷免是跟選舉一樣都是憲法珍貴的人民基本權所以中國過去介入台灣的民主選舉劣跡斑斑那現在會不會也介入台灣的民主人民基本權的另外一個就是罷免呢"},{"start":9406.855,"end":9423.233,"text":"袁教授所說的中共對台工作領導小組的文件已經批示了要著重分化民進黨跟公民霸團的關係要著力在防止大罷免行動中的公民團體的領軍人物來進行抹黑因為擔心他們未來來參選"},{"start":9425.996,"end":9446.462,"text":"第三個呢 大罷免進入三階所以中國一直在觀察要用各種認知作戰的宣傳手段從人格上來摧毀這些大罷免的行動就交於梁副主委或是我們次長這邊有任何具體這樣子的一個情資的判斷或者是你們有什麼樣的因應嗎袁紅冰教授所說的這份"},{"start":9452.421,"end":9467.758,"text":"文件我們並沒有掌握但是如果對岸想要做這些事情我是一點都不驚訝所以有沒有這些文件我覺得這些事情都是"},{"start":9469.161,"end":9492.619,"text":"都是對岸會想要試圖去做的那法務部有另外的什麼樣的情資來我們看下一頁我讓次長回答這一頁我一直認為就像剛剛梁副主委所說的不管文件的真實具體與否但是以中國過去介入民主選舉的這些作為來講未來介入罷免也應當讓不足為奇"},{"start":9494.941,"end":9522.677,"text":"法務部過去呢我在司法法治委員會你們針對整個選舉作為選舉的舉行會有境外資金借選會有網路選舉賭盤會有認知作戰操作訊息干擾等等你們都有專案會去偵辦會去啟動那我就交於次長那這一次如果在未來的罷免從二階到三階法務部也應當來啟動一個類似民主選舉的必要的作為是嗎"},{"start":9523.84,"end":9549.914,"text":"我想這個因為現行的這個嫌罷法跟這個反滲透法都有相關的這個法則的條文那麼各檢察機關都會以法來辦理那委員的建議我們會帶回去請檢察機關來過去我們對於民主選舉的舉行所啟動的所有不管反會選啦反賭盤啦這些都要做反境外的資金各種竊選方式未來在罷免的民主的"},{"start":9550.354,"end":9573.88,"text":"这些人民基本权利行使过程法务部也要依法行政那今天的主题呢要修国安法非常遗憾今天我们看在野党的多数委员也都说支持国安反共谍渗透可到目前为止提出来的国安法的修正案里头九个版本都是民进党委员所提的"},{"start":9574.58,"end":9581.767,"text":"那我個人所看了這總共的六個條文我認為它影響的層面廣泛為大內容方向我都可以支持但我認為還要比嚴謹更嚴謹內容再嚴密要周全再周全這應當也是行政部門未來不管有沒有願板我們都啟動多元擴大的對話下一頁"},{"start":9599.52,"end":9623.232,"text":"那過去法務部針對整個共諜滲透有很多你們做的譬如說在產業界的防止科技掏空那也有防止借選滲透還有防止發展組織利誘軍人在軍人的部分今天最新的有兩件我要就教於您一個就是今天週刊所說的透過黑幫的滲透這件事情次長要不要簡單說明"},{"start":9625.151,"end":9653.258,"text":"好 謝謝因為這個他應該是在我們到這邊之後才出來的新聞那我想簡單就這個議題事實上應該也也在台灣這個現象我們觀察到很久了那我們也會責成我們的檢察機關依法來查查只要有違反國安法或反滲透法相關的這個規定我們都依法來檢查要強化查查因為如果就週刊的報導他不只買通黑道未來可能不管在平時對於台灣社會的滋擾跟在戰時透過黑幫"},{"start":9656.106,"end":9668.442,"text":"來打擊台灣的安全這絕對不容小覷另外一個就是國會的被滲透的事件下一頁參議黨委員一直在帶風向說共諜都在民進黨是這樣嗎2020年立委陳淑慧前助理來"},{"start":9674.195,"end":9695.827,"text":"被判了徒刑因為涉犯共諜案 國民黨的2024年國民黨的李尚典 郭沛君替鄭天才委員助選免費交代附中旅遊也被判刑了 國民黨的民眾黨的桃園黨部發言人馬志威呢受中國資助百萬來選立委而且他拿到的是國會的中央各部會國會聯絡名冊賣給中國也被判刑八個月 這民眾黨的"},{"start":9700.33,"end":9717.82,"text":"那民進黨我們當然很遺憾游錫昆前院長的幕僚也目前要偵辦絕對不容寬待但是不要誤帶風向什麼共諜都在民進黨我們就事實論事實只要是共諜都不允許都要查辦下一頁"},{"start":9718.88,"end":9740.802,"text":"立法院2024年的年度代表字是匪喔真是讓人匪夷所思但是我們要審慎因應最後一個問題下一頁因為國安漏洞如果出現在國會目前公部門不管是調查局幫忙做的公務人員的一般查核或者是特殊查核或是可能考試院有幫忙協助拒絕的部分"},{"start":9741.683,"end":9754.85,"text":"現在我們正在研議在國會端對於立委對於立院的職員工對於國會助理能不能夠參照公務部門有任何查核或拒絕的機制呢可以給我們什麼樣的建議這個目前我們也在研議修法當中那你們會提出修但是這是可能是立法院的內規法"},{"start":9766.616,"end":9781.019,"text":"好我在這裡說我期待法務部就你們研修的部分提供給立法院然後民進黨團會啟動我們國會改革2.0也就是以國安的部分來做立法院無法內歸的修訂下頁"},{"start":9782.24,"end":9797.687,"text":"所以說藍白如果不做連附中登載這件事情藍白都不做民進黨團會先行就教於梁副主委民進黨團預計我們要針對立委以及助理附中的公開登載揭露"},{"start":9798.187,"end":9813.37,"text":"我們的做法朝向簽同意書朝向主動揭露附中的資訊包括立委跟助理喔還有達到事前報備事後報告如果民進黨團演繹這樣子我們在演繹當中陸委會是不是樂見或是給我們更正向的建議"},{"start":9814.551,"end":9839.29,"text":"我們如果會正在研議類似相關的修法我們現在目前是傾向把立委直接放進去也就是沈伯陽一直被擋的案子那但是助理的部分因為我想大家都知道這個生態如果你要規範你只能規範公費助理但是一旦規範下去的話很多公費助理就會變成自費助理"},{"start":9840.751,"end":9858.863,"text":"所以這個規範其實不是很有效所以我個人是建議說直接規範立委就好了當然就政府的法案可能規範立委是優先更何況現在已經連立委的附中登載就被擋了363次"},{"start":9860.544,"end":9876.831,"text":"但是我在這裡也擴大後續會再就教於各位我們民進黨團會先行我們自己先來做黨團內部的包括立委跟助理的這些揭露的作為也許我相信民進黨的委員們公費助理跟自費助理我們受到的嚴謹"},{"start":9879.392,"end":9899.787,"text":"我們的自我要求都是一樣高那剛剛黃次長說的正在研議對於國會的反共諜滲透有哪些法規法案民進黨團非常願意我們一起來共商討論畢竟保密防諜共諜不應當存在任何地方包括立法院不好意思佔用時間我們一起努力謝謝"},{"start":9904.321,"end":9916.531,"text":"好 邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在林儲英 林儲英 林儲英委員不在蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在蔡奕宇 蔡奕宇 蔡奕宇委員不在好 我們請劉許廷委員謝謝主席我們法務部次長有請請次長"},{"start":9932.698,"end":9962.078,"text":"市長早安今天要審查民進黨諸多委員提出來的國家安全法的修正草案當然我們沒有什麼好因為什麼政治的立場大家就畏反對而反對我覺得這是沒有必要的但是我覺得在立法討論的過程之中要力求周延也就是說這些法律的原則性這個東西要把控清楚內容上要做充分的討論我援引一個台大法學院的教授也是現在我們的政務委員林明新先生"},{"start":9962.759,"end":9978.282,"text":"他在2023年的12月在國家安全與行政管制一文中他寫文章投稿就有提到管制的具體目的何在為了避免哪一種涉及國家安全的問題或者是公共秩序的破壞行政管制不應該突然維護公共秩序"},{"start":9978.662,"end":9999.267,"text":"甚至口號式的宣稱國家安全考慮而必須非常具體的指出問題在哪裡然後你才有管制的手段我想他那篇文章的脈絡寫得非常非常的清楚那他在文章中有提到國安的立法其實要討論兩個面向第一叫積極的面向也就是手段跟目的的合理關聯我要管制哪些事要非常明確的我要用怎麼樣的手段可以明確的"},{"start":10000.047,"end":10026.418,"text":"解決這樣子的一個問題要有明確性的關聯第二要符合至少消極面向所謂的消極面向就是避免去違反憲法的一些原則包含成績化法律保留原則法律明確性原則平等原則比例原則信賴保護原則等等這本席並不是法律專家但次長你是我想請教一下以你目前看這些委員的提案版本他們有沒有符合林明熙政委在文章裡面提到的積極面向跟消極面向"},{"start":10027.467,"end":10054.13,"text":"跟委員報告我想委員也都已經有事先閱讀過本部跟司法院分別就法律的專業來對這次委員所提出來特別是關於刑罰的部分我們一定要針對他的比例原則跟過程要見得明確性跟他的目的關係我們都有做相關的論述那我想這個我們的原則就是因為其實賴總統宣誓之後行政院也已經啟動這個國安相關法令各級主管機關"},{"start":10055.091,"end":10083.198,"text":"都要來全面來檢視所以我們目前在研議相關的修法作業當中那就今天所討論的國安法特別是就這個參與組織這個發展組織將參與組織這個漏洞把它補起來以及關於這個退伍退伏的這個部分那這兩個部分我們已經在具體研議當中所以我們今天的這個意見也提供給大院在審查各委員提案的時候來做參考我想裡面都有一些可以再斟酌討論的地方"},{"start":10085.003,"end":10104.471,"text":"所以您的意思是說我有看到我有看到你的報告大部分的結論都是見景在著啦也就是說大家在商量一下因為沒有問題的部分我們不會講啦我們就把有問題的部分寫出來然後說關於這些部分幾乎每一條其實都有再考量的空間對不對大部分都有好那我剛剛其實聽其他委員的時候我大概也知道說可能會有院版對不對那請問部長大概院版這個時間你們抓的時間點是什麼時候"},{"start":10106.312,"end":10125.753,"text":"目前因為裡面有一些部分會有跨機關要來整合協調配套的部分所以這個由行政院在統籌辦理當中那我們現在在進行可能騎乘的部分可能會會不會再拆分或是說會再提出幾個你們會在這個會期裡面有正式的願板出來嗎我們會盡快希望"},{"start":10127.555,"end":10156.056,"text":"這我希望這不管是我們也許等院版出來有一個好的母體之後本席是非常非常希望因為這是知識體大因為我今天跟您討論的是法理上面那法理上面你比較專業那我希望說有很多的法學專家因為這個是試涉到政府管制權限的問題嘛我今天如果修國安法以國安為由然後我讓政府有擴大的權力那到底那條紅線要劃在哪裡什麼樣才是最適切的我想這是社會大眾要共同關心的這個也不能只有朝野立委表達意見我們希望有法學的專家很多學界的這個"},{"start":10157.176,"end":10174.604,"text":"可以透過公聽會等等的方式來做處理但沒關係既然今天這個法務部這邊的官方立場是很多條文要申請再著要再商量那未來也會有所謂的願版那我們就希望願版趕快把它草擬出來但草擬出來之後我們希望有一個公聽會的形式讓這個修法的過程更加完備市長是否同意這樣的做法"},{"start":10174.804,"end":10199.469,"text":"是 我想這個我們在研擬的過程中也會跟這個相關各部會的專家所有的專家都會來做研習來討論那當然提出這個版本之後呢相關的法制作業程序裡面也會跟社會來溝通那如果草案經過院會送到立法院來之後立法院這邊的審議我們都尊重好 謝謝次長 次長請問我們請梁副主委請副主委"},{"start":10204.574,"end":10210.729,"text":"委員好我看陸委會的報告跟法務部不太一樣陸委會好像都還蠻支持的對不對是"},{"start":10212.073,"end":10234.304,"text":"因為從陸委會的立場來說現在的國安法制確實漏洞很大然後很多案子不是沒辦法辦就是辦了也判不成那其實有質詢率低落的問題對不對這其實本集也有了解所以對我們來講的話就是說我們贊成任何加強國安法制的作為可是加強任何的時候有沒有可能影響到人民的生活呢"},{"start":10237.104,"end":10251.697,"text":"我覺得目前是這樣就是說參與組織這個部分我們是一定要把它放進去那其他委員還提出了一個譬如說受中共指示然後譬如說刊登或是散佈圖書文字影像消息這個"},{"start":10254.199,"end":10280.154,"text":"賴瑞榮委員有提出來這個那是技術部分嘛洩密跟參與組織那當然不用講了那一定是在防守範圍之內我現在問的是比如說王定宇委員版本他講說除了發起資助組織操縱指揮組織之外或為其組織機構團體之成員或參與活動他的這個主體是講說這個所謂的境外敵對勢力喔就是包含大陸地區所以換言之你參與他的活動也要入國安法的守備範圍要入罪喔"},{"start":10281.054,"end":10297.502,"text":"這樣子你會支持嗎我舉一個最明顯的例子這我們的媽祖廟對不對梅州媽祖分靈難免他會舉辦公廟之間就有媽祖回娘家然後大家就去進香請問這算不算參與外國大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力之組織機構的活動"},{"start":10301.461,"end":10315.659,"text":"那我們要先判斷說這個組織本身是不是我們認為的非法組織或是受中共指使的組織人家對手是獨裁政權是極權政權哪一個組織不受他操控的對不對過去的時候大家的判斷本來就是這樣啊"},{"start":10316.4,"end":10344.23,"text":"那這樣子變成媽祖梅州媽祖大家分靈回娘家也會變成國安法要偵辦的對象這樣子會不會有點過頭我堅持舉其中一個例子如果講這個修法它除了法理上剛剛我跟次長在討論法理上面要怎麼樣做會比較合理之外另外一個這個法的修正也會影響人民的生活比如玩手遊對不對參加活動甚至參加什麼1111什麼光棍節團購跟對岸電商買東西算不算參與活動很多可以討論的地方所以我希望陸委會這邊"},{"start":10345.731,"end":10366.893,"text":"不要因為你顧慮這個漏洞我理解但你不要因為這樣子那條線畫錯位置啦然後反而造成擾民的問題都要提醒所以本席要再次強調這個法律要修正沒有問題國民黨也不會為反而反但關鍵是法律過程要周延嘛法界的意見之外公聽會的內容也應該著參各式各樣你是主管兩岸交流的機關啦"},{"start":10368.435,"end":10375.261,"text":"這條線要怎麼畫 兩岸交流這部分要怎麼來處理也要納入考量的範圍這是本集給你的建議 好嗎好 謝謝副主委鄭振淺委員不在 我們請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":10394.835,"end":10406.034,"text":"謝謝主席 楊全元發言邀請刑事組刑事警察局刑事警察局好 請刑事警察局嘿 請刑事警察局"},{"start":10413.826,"end":10428.571,"text":"本席今天主要要來跟你討論這個打炸成績單因為行政院打造中心在4月28號他有發布打炸成績單他聲稱了財產的損失下降了48.8%"},{"start":10431.385,"end":10453.644,"text":"那這個是要穩定民心因為大家現在在社會上都說這個詐騙的很多各種的方式都有所以讓人民非常的心生恐懼而且方式一變再變一直有各種的不同的方式所以讓民眾非常的不安心甚至有的連聽電話都會啪"},{"start":10455.806,"end":10473.196,"text":"現在看LINE啊 看臉書啊 被盜用啊大家不知道真的是假的還是假的是真的 還是真的是真的讓人民不安心所以我們全力的支持這個打詐但是根據民間PTT鄉民隊警政署這邊打詐儀表板的公開數據來分析"},{"start":10479.799,"end":10500.265,"text":"那麼他分析了呢 實際上上個月 3月份呢詐騙案件的這個數額與金額呢 皆是上個月就比照上個月 他都是大幅增加所以在這樣的一個情況之下詐騙集團的月收 月營收 甚至有突破70億元單日超過了2億元 單日就超過了2億元"},{"start":10505.407,"end":10527.934,"text":"所以呢 在這樣的情況之下 台灣的奇蹟呢是讓人家覺得很奇怪 而且民眾不安心所以本席在這邊請教副局長也就是民間的認知 跟你們所努力的這一些的情況 似乎有很大的落差那在這個情況之下呢 到底它主要的原因是什麼 請教說明"},{"start":10530.15,"end":10554.576,"text":"謝謝委員的關心那這一點跟委員做報告那我們打炸的確對國人同胞造成很大的傷害那如果從數據所以我們張署長上任以來很大的破例就是做了打炸儀表板就是將我們國人同胞一天一個月所受的財損"},{"start":10556.529,"end":10582.708,"text":"很正確的公諸於世也是警惕我們的民眾所以我們113年一天的財損就將近4億一天所以整個113年可能到1300億左右這是一個很正確的數字沒有任何的隱瞞那今年114年開始因為經過一段時間大家的想方設法"},{"start":10583.564,"end":10606.096,"text":"那透過國外透過刑事局的國際科對外的打擊跟國內我們做了試炸提醒我們的民眾減少接受到炸機的損害所以我們目前已經降到這個月已經降到70億左右"},{"start":10606.843,"end":10634.531,"text":"就單日七十一左右這個月就單月七十一左右跟去年來做比較有大幅的減少將近三分之一那我們還是會持續的來推動試炸試炸這個工作在對外的主動的供給這一部分我們在刑事局還是非常努力不懈的也是希望然後我們透過跟大陸的聯繫希望境外"},{"start":10635.728,"end":10652.19,"text":"的打炸這一部分能夠做好就是兩岸的共打這一部分能夠有效的來控制炸機的傷害那很重要的一部分應該是打炸國家隊我們讓民眾減少受到炸機的訊息"},{"start":10655.311,"end":10678.59,"text":"這一點非常重要因為我們雖然有看到這個數字去年這樣比較起來但是目前的額度還是非常的大你也同意說目前的額度還是非常大還是影響到民眾的生活所以我們必須要精準打擊讓這個成效能夠讓民眾來安心這是非常的重要加油 謝謝謝謝 謝委員好 我們請王宏威委員"},{"start":10696.462,"end":10720.328,"text":"好謝謝主席我請陸委會副主委還有法務部次長好副主委跟次長國防部國防部是處長來是不是好那內政部是內政部長官還有好內政部好司長內政部"},{"start":10724.898,"end":10738.928,"text":"來啊各位部會首長啊那麼因為這次的國安法的修正呢零零總總那麼如果按照我們現在呢嗯各版本來看到的好那麼我們做了一下了解好那"},{"start":10739.608,"end":10764.149,"text":"未来恐怕包含下载向大陆的手游或者是参加这个什么淘宝啊或者他们网站的一些双11的活动还有呢未来和大陆的这个只要跟他们的官方有关的活动甚至包含比如我们台北市的双城论坛或者是啊你所谓针对不特定人来发展组织啊"},{"start":10764.549,"end":10787.235,"text":"就是他等於說有交付再交付那譬如說這位這個盛楚英這位助理已經涉及了他涉嫌共諜那只要有跟他有所接觸的都有可能違反相關的這個國安法如果按照現在的各個版本可以算是一個包山包海"},{"start":10788.055,"end":10814.531,"text":"然後對非常多的社團對非常多的個人可能他不小心他就觸法而且那違反的是相關的國安法那我想請教一下那麼但是我們這樣一個包山包海的國安法那請問一下我們的主管機關到底是哪一個主管機關我想請問一下陸委會我們是國安法的主管機關嗎"},{"start":10816.468,"end":10835.654,"text":"報告委員 陸委會不是主管機關 這個國安法的主管機關是行政院是行政院所以目前如果相關的 就是行政院相關要制定相關法律的 是包含原來我們所查到資料法務部是嘛 對不對"},{"start":10836.674,"end":10847.122,"text":"跟委員報告因為那個國安法非常多條文不同的條文是設主管不同目前是內政部法務部跟國防部都有三個單位三個單位好那我現在的問題就是說"},{"start":10852.766,"end":10877.332,"text":"這個國安法我剛剛講了它橫跨這麼多跟我們人民跟社團這麼多的相關的權利義務的事情而在這次國安法的修正裡面還包含了一些資通訊還有一些國家的重要的核心技術國家的這個相關的甚至商業機密那所以我想請問一下如果說法務部能不能告訴我"},{"start":10878.092,"end":10898.356,"text":"那刚才讲就说目前相关修法国防部内政部以及法部是不是显然已经不足了我刚才讲说他很快的至少我现在看起来经济部要放进去还有述发部变得也很重要所以我们现在只有三个部会是不是显然不足"},{"start":10898.956,"end":10922.263,"text":"這個只是法令的這個延期的時候的幕僚機關那正如剛才我所說裡面的條文據假設涉及到各部會其他的業務的時候當然也都要共同來研議來處理所以並不是只有單一的主管機關來做決定這樣子所以現在看起來那所以你們還是在架構上還是維持三個部會而已嗎基本上是行政院來統籌"},{"start":10923.39,"end":10944.06,"text":"好現在我想請問一下因為剛才也有很多委員問到因為這麼多的國安法的修正包山包海那麼到底會不會有相關的行政院的版本我聽之前是說會提出相關行政院的版本是我們在研擬中好那麼大概什麼時候才會提出來呢"},{"start":10944.754,"end":10963.632,"text":"各位委員包括因為就誠如這一次這個各委員提案的這個所涉及的層面跟議題還有範圍都很廣所以目前行政院統籌其實也是各該的業務的主管機關都會加入了一起來解釋所以期程上面目前還沒有這個很明確但是我們都已經在進行作業當中"},{"start":10964.212,"end":10992.588,"text":"目前都還沒有所以我要講的就是說其實國安法比如說我們最近有很多的共諜案那相關你確實有從事洩漏國家機密交付相關的機密的資料給對岸不管是個人或者是政府機關或相關的機構這個部分在國安法裡面我們都支持但是我剛才特別講到因為這些很多相關的語意不明的時候"},{"start":10993.769,"end":11006.511,"text":"會 我們擔心會傷及無辜啦最怕就是傷及無辜那麼我們很多民眾他們平常已經約定俗成或者他們平常就在做的事情那動不動他就會"},{"start":11007.54,"end":11029.198,"text":"就會觸犯了國安法好那最後一點時間不好意思容我問一下我們的副主委梁副主委就在這次修法裡面特別有提到一些就是跟大陸對岸的就是它的相關的活動有相關的禁止您個人支持這些委員的版本嗎"},{"start":11031.55,"end":11060.103,"text":"我們是支持要把參與組織的部分要加進去因為過去有很多案例是發起人被判刑但是他發起這個組織加入他組織的人都沒事譬如說像前陸軍軍官向德恩這個案子向德恩很有明顯的甚至還拍影片拍效忠影片加入這個共諜組織但是最後法院沒辦法判他"},{"start":11061.373,"end":11063.306,"text":"因為他只是參與 他不是發起人"},{"start":11064.349,"end":11073.572,"text":"最後法院是判他用貪污之罪條例那大家就覺得很荒謬所以這個部分我們認為是要動搖堵起來好那我請問一下因為這裡面的條文裡面有包含任何人不得為境外敵對勢力之成員或其參與其活動的就是說也不能夠參與那我想請問我現在是具體的請問那麼我們現在在兩岸之間譬如說在每一年都會舉辦的雙城論壇"},{"start":11094.478,"end":11099.442,"text":"雙城論壇如果按照這個條文變成連雙城論壇都不能夠參加你覺得這個合理嗎如果說我們今天國安法就是無限上綱道只要是對岸境外敵對勢力他們有參與的或者是他們也有共同發起的然後這個活動我們都不能參加那麼如果像以雙城論壇來說的話它應該也被禁止囉"},{"start":11122.582,"end":11145.172,"text":"並不會啦 因為我們要先看這個組織到底是什麼樣的也就是說它是受中共教唆或是中共派遣之人所在台灣成立的組織然後這個東西我們才會認為說它是非法組織那非法組織的話才有參與加入或是活動的問題因為時間的關係 所以我要確定一件事情"},{"start":11145.832,"end":11172.562,"text":"就是譬如說在整個的國安法的修正的過程而且之後不至於去影響這些屬於正常的交流的活動是不是因為我們參與的也很多我認為是不會我認為是不會因為其實現在國安法的這個運用的範圍其實非常低的我們大部分還是運用我們的兩岸人民關係條例行政法的部分那因為國安法是刑法的問題"},{"start":11173.362,"end":11190.257,"text":"所以他其實老實講他的運用範圍是比較窄所以他應該更加嚴謹對不對他應該更加的嚴謹因為他確實刑罰的部分不要動不動就入人於罪我覺得這點是應該是最高的指導原則我已經放心不會謝謝"},{"start":11196.394,"end":11225.194,"text":"好登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束委員林楚英陳冠廷黃建斌丁學中所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一周內以書面答覆並複製本會好討論事項所列議案令定期繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"16640","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16640","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc62c05bd4558c4086b761654f0ebe352d14bfadd538e1bbbf20103117c21623a05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請立法院秘書長、議事處處長、法制局局長列席就「防止立法院成為國安破口─避免共諜滲透、機敏資訊洩漏等國安事件之防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-01","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-01T08:31:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-01T10:08:00+08:00","duration":5805,"影片長度":"01:36:45","委員發言時間":"08:31:15 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宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 邀請立法院秘書長 議事處處長法治局局長列席就3月25日晚間本院違法會議及違法表決之事法性是否有違公務員服務法 進行專題報告並被質詢通過臨時提案一項 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2141.124,"end":2159.169,"text":"好 我因為現在在場的委員不足三人我剛才看吳宗正走過來 再簽一下 再照去那我們等一下等人數達三人的時候 我們再行來確定那接著介紹在場的委員 向旁邊的 王玉昌委員 給他打招呼一下 有啊 一起來打招呼"},{"start":2165.613,"end":2169.516,"text":"及應邀列席官員沒來 還是沒來 今天沒人來 沒人捧場"},{"start":2174.642,"end":2193.872,"text":"那我們本次議程的排定是邀請我們立法院秘書長議事處處長還有法治局局長來列席針對防止立法院成為國安破口避免共諜滲透機敏資訊洩漏等國安事件的一個防制措施進行專題報告並被質詢"},{"start":2197.654,"end":2214.027,"text":"再一次來做一個說明今天我相信大家看到如果召委所排出來的這樣的一個議題防止立法院稱為國安破口避免共諜滲透 機敏資訊洩漏等國安事件的防治措施這個"},{"start":2215.868,"end":2228.718,"text":"是立法院秘書處的一個職責這個也是立法院必須不能只要求別人自己不做所以我們今天針對這樣的一個防治措施來進行專題報告再次強調具備公義性而且非常非常的一個重要很可惜我們今天的"},{"start":2239.266,"end":2261.062,"text":"秘書長 還有議事處處長 還有法治局局長沒來啦 這個是沒來的原因 實在是天黑一片啦就是我們的立法院發出的新聞稿 說幕僚人員並不是立法委員監督的一個對象我們必須要講 這種不請假 不報告 不出面"},{"start":2263.223,"end":2277.256,"text":"身份其實已經不是秘書長了這個身份其實就是一個太上皇了公務人員你說你不守法你國會還談什麼法治這個秘書處尤其周恩來秘書長還有我們韓國瑜院長其實應該給社會一個交代躲在藍白的後面來抵制我們整個一個委員會的一個召開"},{"start":2290.687,"end":2296.091,"text":"這個是非常的一個不當就算我們從禮拜一所排列的議程裡面來看的話針對3月25號違法表決 其實違法表決裡面大家很清楚就是你作案來的一份 連說明都不敢這個講說它是議會的一個活字典 這是很大的一個諷刺"},{"start":2314.742,"end":2335.642,"text":"那從這三次的排案開始大家應該也可以預測的到以後我們的秘書處在立法院是橫著走就像螃蟹一樣這個置外於整個一個制度一個監督這個我相信這個全民都不會接受我們也嚴重的一個譴責來 請問在場委員有什麼意見嗎 王一川"},{"start":2341.465,"end":2345.667,"text":"主席我問一下 如果這樣我們可不可以質詢啊有人來 你要對著空氣質詢沒關係啦好 來 第一位質詢委員 王一川委員請周恩來秘書長沒有來我站起來給你整理喔 你那個是什麼"},{"start":2373.508,"end":2392.284,"text":"王逸川委員還沒有開始質詢以前因為現在在場三位委員那我們之前的議事錄已經宣讀完畢現在 尚未確定啦那現在我們先確定議事錄請問各位委員上次會議的議事錄有沒有錯誤跟遺漏沒有 這樣我們的議事錄就確定我們接下來請王逸川委員質詢"},{"start":2404.482,"end":2414.364,"text":"那個年紀大大,你把它放好,要給人尊重不過來是遷就而已,我們這沒人羞辱的,要緊整理時間沒人來,隨他講好,謝謝召委,我們請那個周萬海秘書長"},{"start":2431.584,"end":2456.116,"text":"沒來啦 你的底啊好 沒關係這個自從韓國瑜當了立法院院長以後啊這個原本訂好的議事規則不管是周萬來寫的書啊國家考試啊考試院不管考什麼題目啊現在這切全部都要寫例外萬來有一個規則"},{"start":2457.796,"end":2483.61,"text":"現在都要改作例外情形我認同國家科企科立法院相關的規則的時候可能大家考生都要寫 以上寫完但是發生過例外這樣搞得算完整這次召委排了三天的會這些題目看起來有漂亮嗎 節目有漂亮嗎我講你不要把我打斷"},{"start":2486.036,"end":2502.724,"text":"這些題目看起來都還蠻中性的第一天白上第一天白立法院的資安要怎麼處理因為我們的各個行政機關從行政院開始到各縣市政府各級機關都有資安問題"},{"start":2505.578,"end":2516.109,"text":"這樣就請立法院包括相關的人員 秘書長 所有相關的同仁一起來跟大家說明一下立法院的治安第二個題目叫做立法院院區的空間 議事的空間"},{"start":2526.554,"end":2536.122,"text":"這當然牽扯到立法院有要拔除或是要去其他的縣區要刷去台中、武鴻、澳洲,要刷去哪裡刷去哪裡這些也可以討論請秘書長針對現在規劃的情形來報告也不來這是第二題第三題就要問說立法院很多的議事規則譬如說聽各位開一刀火"},{"start":2556.669,"end":2574.638,"text":"明明開會時間已經定好,到下午的六點,六點一到大家就解散了嘛,慣例就是這樣嘛,六點一到大家就解散了韓國瑜院長進來我就這樣七點十一開始開會,然後處理相關的議案"},{"start":2579.887,"end":2595.904,"text":"總是大家問這是慣例嗎這個如果符合議事規則那以後這個就是慣例喔那如果是慣例的話那以後可能不只這個立法院的院長啦 副院長啦 比如說這個"},{"start":2598.227,"end":2610.696,"text":"莊瑞雄召委,林耕英做召委,或是我做召委開會說今天開到5點半,我6點就收到去處理議案這是不是我們被管理,這也希望立法院的秘書長來跟我們說明一下,議事處長來說明一下今天要的題目"},{"start":2622.672,"end":2643.167,"text":"說立法院也有可能成為國安的破口嘛因為裡面有立法委員啊有國會助理啊有立法院的議事人員啊很多人都會接觸到所謂的國安的這個文件裡頭可能是有機密的我們今天有寫一個密的開會的時候啊這個機密會議最之前啊這禮拜有一個會叫做不公開會議"},{"start":2652.967,"end":2671.458,"text":"有一個公開會議 機密會議 還有一個假的 發明一個叫做不公開會議那到底是不是機密會議 總是大家可以問一下那這些題目啊 其實都還蠻中性的因為我們昨晚來秘書長啊 那個韓國瑜拚來當秘書長的時候吼 明天啊 把他抄大告 惡惡告"},{"start":2678.636,"end":2689.065,"text":"什麼活字典 什麼立法委員 國會助理 如果沒有把他寫的文章都不會開花好 現在大家來就很認真把他寫 要來做國會助理的 大家手頭都一本大家來議事處理到一半 不知道就拿一本給他寫看看我們這個活字典有跟我們說什麼嗎 同時就這樣超大 多高 多高"},{"start":2706.075,"end":2709.36,"text":"歷經多少院長,對什麼開始做什麼都罰什麼草野協商都罰,議事過去的爭議什麼都罰"},{"start":2719.602,"end":2725.926,"text":"後來當時很奇怪的, 韓國的做議長之後, 整個立法院開會都早晨,沒有叫幾次來走,在立法院職權刑事法、憲法、訴訟法、選罷法,不管是議事程序,還是對法律的解釋,這個昨晚來講的,有個另外一套, 把韓國的老闆弄亂了"},{"start":2748.922,"end":2757.51,"text":"韓國瑜如果坐在那裡,昨晚如果跟他說怎麼樣,他就怎麼樣我們議事處長說繼續唸,繼續唸,把他唸完,韓國瑜就把他唸完我姓韓國瑜,他不義韓國瑜就在旁邊這幾個一直跟他說,一直獨自調他,他就唸,一直唸,一直唸搞到現在立法院到底開會的規則是什麼,我也搞不清楚"},{"start":2775.029,"end":2783.778,"text":"所以我們召委就用心良苦,想說一天不夠,不然請秘書長來我們問三天不敢逮捕大家深入探討一下,不可以來,不可以來也很粗糙你如果不可以來,我六種方式,一種你就要親家嘛,親家也很多方式"},{"start":2797.203,"end":2806.731,"text":"請到一般一開始都要先靠一個電話,跟趙薇說,就另有要講,什麼怎麼做怎麼不可以來,我的價單還要跟他們報來第二種,為了電話沒要靠就一條,叫一條公文來,我就沒辦法來,不然就是全劑出來說,這怎麼做怎麼做,所以照過去幾十年來的慣例,我就心分上沒辦法去,所以怎麼做怎麼做"},{"start":2826.397,"end":2841.352,"text":"可是我們這裏的秘書長,這些動作都沒有做都沒有做,書面的文件都沒有,端端的不可以來,還有請韓國的寫一張文情並茂,還有燙金的什麼,那也不是叫請假單,那也不是什麼單,像現在還有一張抓來,這裏沒有人,這裏連一張抓都沒有"},{"start":2851.038,"end":2856.302,"text":"這次就是發動媒體,叫媒體跟各位委員說,我沒有要去就算是小白,昨晚來這種就算是小白啦,大型啦小白啦,大型啦,當作自己多厲害,賭多厲害啦我要說啦,那個什麼新聞稿啦,那個什麼湯津的那張大啦那絕對不是韓國的事啦,韓國還不夠多"},{"start":2879.11,"end":2883.012,"text":"那些人早晚來自己寫的啦 自己提自己寫說不要來的理由啦像這種的 在書上都會記載的 會記載那些缺席的像莊瑞雄早晚擺這個廢料 除了這個早晚來沒來 創下紀錄一番你這樣三天沒到黃國昌三天沒有登記發言"},{"start":2904.346,"end":2924.352,"text":"這如果算出席率就對了 該委員會出席率 黃國昌是缺席三次欸 你們這抄什麼給我看好黃國昌有三天沒有來開會 簽到完就跑了簽到完就跑 黃國昌有三天 簽完到就跑了沒有登記發言 第一次看到黃國昌會怕 不敢來發言為什麼"},{"start":2929.653,"end":2931.958,"text":"為什麼?因為現在北蘭的人說的就糾正了嘛,就靠你們說都不可以來不可以來,還要顧名釣譽,還要來遷到"},{"start":2940.609,"end":2944.972,"text":"你們白臘娘娘在這個會不可以叫祖母奶奶你們千刀就不可以 又沽名釣譽好 叫我會議紀錄頂管 沒我們的名字 哎呦 當個酸民的我們在廠裡說 國產老師怎麼沒有去開會 國產老師怎麼沒有去開會啊 過去 登記了 趕快來鬧跑 怎麼沒有登記發言"},{"start":2960.916,"end":2972.58,"text":"為什麼沒有登記花園啊王國昌你為什麼三天都沒有登記花園啊你給他唱啊 講好清楚那你如果不登記花園 你為什麼還簽到你為什麼還簽到 顧名釣譽啦顧名釣譽啦 他要過一個月才說我哪有簽到 但是連登記花園都沒有啊這個都是喔 因為週末來沒辦法來演化的後續的這個效果"},{"start":2989.813,"end":2996.596,"text":"因為這個出來的效果好,但是說昨晚來不來,不來請教連書面資料也不給連書面資料也不給今天說這個立法院領綱的議事空間是要怎麼處理是不是有這個簽證啊什麼的計畫嘛這個案子很久了,很久了"},{"start":3016.974,"end":3039.066,"text":"阿目前的進度是怎樣阿昨晚來也來做一年多阿韓國的也來做一年多做一年多阿目前進度是怎樣連一張帳都不敢跟我們說連一個進度都不跟國人說明這是傲慢傲慢啦 漂白啦 大型啦就是這樣第二個"},{"start":3042.653,"end":3057.198,"text":"大家問說立法院有國安破口 立法院有沒有國安的機制啊防止這個破口 不管是資安的破口 人員啊可能涉及的這個國安相關的這個破口那另外一屆也有回到這個情形嗎"},{"start":3062.479,"end":3078.602,"text":"總是做一個立法院的行政單位包括秘書長、資訊相關的單位、副知人總是要來替大家報告一下說現在立法院要處理國安的問題、資安的問題現在到底我們做了什麼樣的努力要嗎?連一張座也不要"},{"start":3092.947,"end":3104.275,"text":"不要請教,不給書面資料,也不跟召委商量一下,說我怎麼樣就怎麼樣,怎麼樣就怎麼樣,沒辦法怎麼樣,怎麼樣也沒有這如果成為慣例,以後我們的行政部門,醫療就對了行政院長,也一樣如法炮製,衝一場燙金的端來"},{"start":3122.919,"end":3139.548,"text":"我還要講喔 領工啊 我們這什麼內政部長不可以去我們這交通部長不可以去 我也不可以去 我們就都不可以去 啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊"},{"start":3152.383,"end":3179.13,"text":"後來擺吳宗憲召委擺的議程請司法院的副秘書長來司法院的副秘書長來如果司法院一樣發一個公文來說不好意思比照辦理立法院秘書長不出席我司法院的副秘書長也不出席我的總統府以後也不要出席"},{"start":3180.031,"end":3184.238,"text":"那請問禮拜一 我就看禮拜一吳宗憲要怎麼主持看禮拜一吳宗憲要怎麼主持"},{"start":3192.958,"end":3207.041,"text":"你國民黨做招委,你就要求這行政部門的秘書長、副秘書長都要來啊如果不要來,不來就在叭叭叫動一動的,口水噴了,整個麥克風都熄,都在咆哮你香港的領導的立法院,昨晚來,立法院秘書長不要來"},{"start":3219.715,"end":3238.289,"text":"齁 你們這樣幾天沽名釣譽 命纏纏的繞跑不敢登記花園 不敢做任何的抨擊想去種的甘木耗 這草仔給我藏起來 你也看一看你民眾董的 點點 都可以不要來黃國昌缺席三次 蹺課 蹺課 蹺課"},{"start":3244.861,"end":3253.244,"text":"沒有人這樣啦,這趙薇喔,白傑文也很辛苦,我一天四塊就趙薇,白傑這帝寶我想說,這帝寶也很中性的啊你來就說明,沒辦法說明就叫車旁邊的處長,什麼議事處長,什麼處長來倒過也可以啊都不要來,沒辦法來跟你譴責是剛好而已所以今天去啦,當然這個我對面這個趙萬來秘書長今天是沒來啦齁"},{"start":3274.431,"end":3286.448,"text":"啊沒來,我們說實在的,沒來,如果我們沒辦法逼他來,我們這個遭遇也算客氣了你如果看到人家在拜日,吳宗憲面對人家沒來,人家的態度是怎樣?"},{"start":3290.015,"end":3305.753,"text":"對不對 你是跟資深衝突得好啊你如果要吳宗憲處理這條就沒什麼人了我就看吳宗憲後來拜他 有辦法像我們這個莊瑞相遭的劈起劍以後 再做一段娓娓道來"},{"start":3309.482,"end":3321.852,"text":"說一些成語好,我今天就質詢到這裡就請趙偉安排這三天的議程終於讓我在第三天有講到話了好,謝謝趙偉好,謝謝王一川委員"},{"start":3327.39,"end":3337.295,"text":"很認真,所以到場的也不能因為行政部門的官員沒有到場,讓大家都沒有機會來發言接下來我們請陳培宇委員發言我會說發言的原因就是說,要質詢就沒人,要自己想"},{"start":3349.532,"end":3363.972,"text":"這是我來立法院兩年多以來第一次面對空蕩蕩的備詢台這也算是一個全新的經驗不過我必須要說這個經驗是不好的經驗所以主席我們沒有現實報告主席我們沒有現實"},{"start":3365.354,"end":3373.244,"text":"我看你沒有按計時器時間自有調控一下反正現在來了少我盡量給大家方便好 謝謝主席來我們來看一下其實這三天的安排的議題其實對於整個立法院也好"},{"start":3380.934,"end":3400.315,"text":"都有非常重要實質的意義不管是秘書處、行政部門或者是總務處、人事處本來就要對相關業務是處於一個必須要向立法院報告的狀態可是我們非常遺憾的是過去這一年多以來在藍白多數主導立法院的情況下屢屢發生非常多荒謬的事情"},{"start":3401.016,"end":3408.803,"text":"我們就從其中一個司法法制委員會這個禮拜排的議案作為切入光是3月25號強行通過的違法會議非法表決所造成的空殼公投我要再一次強調如果我們來看這個時間軸事實上當天是早上9點鐘會議開始"},{"start":3421.773,"end":3433.987,"text":"可是當天因為有游志斌的事件到底他是誰的助理到底他是誰的辦公室的同仁不管是陳玉珍或者是韓國瑜院長都交代的不清不楚我們甚至懷疑有人說謊"},{"start":3436.51,"end":3455.093,"text":"一整天開始呢韓國瑜院長不願意處理不過韓國瑜院長不處理這件事情也不是第一次了在這一年多來他始終呢就是只會訂便當慶祝大家生日這個慷樂鼓掌非常盡責但是身為一個立法院長實在失職結果呢到了當天下午的三點半巨傳有竹聯幫"},{"start":3456.094,"end":3473.93,"text":"要在康源餐廳聚餐選幫主那其實這件事情呢第一時間內政部就有處理可是我們要問到底是誰放任黑道做這樣的事情到了五點鐘我們發現黃國昌為什麼要針對黃國昌呢因為他當天提出一個要延長會議"},{"start":3475.351,"end":3501.203,"text":"的臨時提案可是他一整天都沒有來立法院而且呢這個延長會議的提案事實上他也必須要主席宣布可是很奇怪是主席也沒有宣布他們兩個就像彼此都會通靈一樣喔在六點鐘以後呢所有的國民黨還有民眾黨委員就一起衝進立法院在會議時間之後要一起來開會然後呢當時我們就問他到底現在是不是開會時間他其實也講不清楚結果"},{"start":3503.113,"end":3531.253,"text":"當時國會頻道的直播我們還發現他切換到休息這個畫面也就是說他們呢自己知道這件事情是有問題的所以他們選在一個奇怪的開會時間而且我們要再次強調當天其實已經超過了法定的開會時間可是他們依然還是要強行開會而這個主導者不管是傅坤祺不管是韓國瑜不管是黃國昌我想國人都看在眼裡那接下來我們來看一下關於立法院的資安防護這件事情"},{"start":3531.733,"end":3545.892,"text":"事實上在去年司法法制的鍾嘉斌委員就已經有問到立法院每一個月遭受到資安的攻擊將近90萬次每月90萬次是一個什麼概念一個月如果30天來算"},{"start":3548.56,"end":3568.312,"text":"這個算法算下去我們可以想見立法院絕對有很大的問題那遭受到這個攻擊到底資安人員如何面對或是相關的系統如何處理而韓國瑜身為立法院長他主理著行政單位他們有沒有意識到這件事情還是他們認為來自對岸的敵意不需要處理反正呢"},{"start":3568.972,"end":3594.925,"text":"國共一家親這件事情好像已然是一個事實所以他們完全不想去防護完全不想去保護立法院相關子安的安全所以他們才決定今天不來嗎是這樣嗎接下來呢他們又說他們非常非常在意共諜的案子那我們就說該查就查該辦就辦事實上所有的民進黨籍立委當時有牽涉到這個相關共諜案的立委也都說該查就查該辦就辦絕不寬待"},{"start":3597.586,"end":3609.535,"text":"那我想這個立場如果已經這麼清楚了為什麼藍白在這件事情上始終不敢面對這件事情還有之前我在司法法制委員會質詢過關於連署造假、抄錄名冊、死亡連署的議題國家無分黨派滲透行為無分藍綠白只要有違法疑慮應該就要秉公查辦絕不護短"},{"start":3620.023,"end":3639.852,"text":"那民進黨也絕對不會像國民黨一樣去支持違法或造假的行為很可惜我們看到國民黨不只造假昨天還有人公開承認自己就是促成這個錯誤案件的人講到共諜其實共諜最大受害者是國民黨但國民黨恐怕已經忘記了自己的歷史過去呢"},{"start":3641.044,"end":3659.844,"text":"在國共內戰的時候很多人都發現了相關的史料裡面發現了中國共產黨派非常多的人滲透在國民黨的身邊不管是連開會的人啊會議記錄甚至是做小小小小事情的人大到官階將領都有共諜在滲透在中國國民黨裡頭"},{"start":3660.845,"end":3688.614,"text":"所以呢這可能也是當時國共內戰國民黨整個大敗的原因如果國民黨就是深受共諜毒害最深的苦衷那他們為什麼到今天為止卻選擇跟共諜站在一起就連昨天國台辦都出來幫他們說話說426他們做得好good job我實在是不知道到底誰才是應該最努力反共諜但現在卻跟共諜站在一起的中國國民黨你們真的對不起你們的老祖宗"},{"start":3689.614,"end":3707.402,"text":"好 接下來我們要繼續講我主席 我實在是覺得沒有人回答我 好煩喔心情很不好餒好 接下來我要講喔國民黨不只做這樣的事情他們甚至提名了一個不分區上一屆的不分區 無私懷"},{"start":3708.682,"end":3728.002,"text":"吳斯懷這位退將呢他當時被提名為不分區他也做了一屆可是當時他卻協同多名退將到北京的人民大會堂聽習近平講話你看他做那個端端正正的樣子一副好像要效忠國家的樣子但是我們來看一下他效忠的國家是哪一國"},{"start":3728.88,"end":3743.43,"text":"是中國內這樣子的國民黨不分區立法委員難道還要我們相信中國共產黨是反共的嗎中國國民黨是反共的嗎當然不是甚至他們的國安破口翁小林還在公開質詢的時候要求農業部陳部長"},{"start":3745.131,"end":3767.385,"text":"提供所謂的暫時的糧食配送站地圖這個更加的荒謬如果是暫時的機敏資料現在提供給你們這些舔共賣台的立委真的適合嗎?而你還敢在公開視訊講這個話真的是在跟主子告訴主子說我做得很好good job 嘉義還是說你其實要惹怒更多的台灣人"},{"start":3769.073,"end":3786.362,"text":"那很多時候中國國民黨會說到底誰才是共諜誰才是跟中國站在一起的人可笑的是在四二六的前夕今年四二六前夕連勝文也就是國民黨的副主席他才跑去見宋濤他說了什麼話呢他說"},{"start":3787.643,"end":3802.294,"text":"中國在面對關稅衝擊的時候台灣應該要主動幫忙中國這是什麼荒謬的言論接下來4月17號往前推個幾天洪秀柱一樣去拜見國台辦主席宋濤他繼續談兩岸一家親他繼續談九二共識"},{"start":3806.397,"end":3829.447,"text":"他們呢每一個人都急著去填貢每一個人都急著要把台灣賣出去大家更不要忘記去年4月26號在0403大地震之後呢傅昆奇說要去促成兩岸交流他帶了16名國民黨立委去拜見中國的網顧你更不要說他在2025的時候去到香港在香港的公開會議上說他代表中央政府"},{"start":3830.047,"end":3846.772,"text":"這就是現在國民黨的樣態所以呢可能是因為國民黨現在這個囂張的樣子才讓周萬來他可以選擇不來才讓周萬來和韓國瑜出一個新聞稿就可以做出藐視國會藐視主席這樣的行為最後我們來看一下為了情資的控管"},{"start":3847.672,"end":3874.499,"text":"民進黨的委員提出了多項關於國安法案也就是兩岸人民關係條例我們辦公室當然也有提案我們的要求非常簡單立法委員附中必須申報可是卻在程序委員會多次被擋下到目前為止所有委員提案被擋下的次數已經超過300多次而這樣子一再阻擋卻告訴我們是要挺國安國民黨居心何在其實我們真的都看不懂"},{"start":3875.299,"end":3898.39,"text":"基本上在台灣所有的政務官縣市首長還有大多數的基層軍公教去中國以前都必須要報備這個是有相關的法規範可是掌握這麼多權力跟機密的立法委員卻沒有相關任何的風險管理機制我們真的覺得非常的荒謬更可笑的是林國成民眾黨的立法委員還在總質詢當中聲稱說這沒有黨啦這叫暫緩"},{"start":3904.073,"end":3919.734,"text":"就像陈玉珍打我一样却叫做排除这就是现在的国民党跟民众党在做的事情他们不仅党法案他们在立法院有暴力行为甚至连同周万来秘书长都可以不尊重司法法室委员会都可以选择不出席"},{"start":3921.497,"end":3943.136,"text":"藐視司法法制委員會我想這個是他們到底做了什麼樣的壞事大家真的都看在眼裡這個打假球的行為我想真的是要停止所以我簡單的呼籲雖然他沒有來我還是要講給他聽如果國民黨或是民眾黨認為國會助理有涉共諜案我們堅持部分黨派該查就查該辦就辦而立法院我們自己也"},{"start":3943.536,"end":3966.588,"text":"應該要快速訂定相關的內規防止國會助理涉入共諜案還有相關的立法委員附中必須申報的法案我們希望可以儘速排審進入委員會不要再被擋在程序委員會了如果藍白兩黨真的在乎國安就請不要再打假球好 以上空氣質詢完畢謝謝主席好 謝謝程培委員接下來我們請吳思瑤委員發言"},{"start":3984.008,"end":4000.181,"text":"謝謝主席我相信周萬來秘書長此時此刻他仍不敢來到司法法治委員會但他一定在立法院的某一個空間某一個辦公室"},{"start":4000.683,"end":4015.097,"text":"正在看著司法法治委員會的線上直播所以我相信我現在對於周秘書長所提出的各項議題的質詢他就算沒有來也應當認真聽也應當做筆記畢竟能夠來成為立法院的秘書長"},{"start":4022.063,"end":4041.029,"text":"是國家賦予責任是人民對國會有所期待秘書長即便成了州亂來成了州不來但是他還是中華民國立法院的秘書長該做的事還是應當做好"},{"start":4041.909,"end":4061.048,"text":"而不是一再的代乎職責首先要跟主席先報告今天本席依舊會再次提出臨時提案周秘書長一次不來我們就譴責一次我想這也創下了立法院有史以來單周"},{"start":4061.849,"end":4078.69,"text":"第三次被譴責的任何一個我們的從政人員應當是也創下了史上被譴責次數最密集的一個記錄而這個負面的記錄是他自己做到的"},{"start":4079.861,"end":4105.142,"text":"那今天我很認真的針對這一週我們沒有辦法來發言來進行民主討論理性對話的三個主題簡要盡可能濃縮為一次的發言我希望能夠透過議事記錄能夠明確的登載因為立委的問政向公民負責向社會負責那今天我們要來看看"},{"start":4106.363,"end":4130.723,"text":"立法院已經成了太上院除了去年國會擴權的法案一再的被大法官打臉國會並沒有國會優位但顯然藍白的委員還有韓國瑜主導的立法院是憲法於無物立院最大就像是一個傳染病一樣"},{"start":4131.824,"end":4141.981,"text":"不只立法院自己認為他是所有憲政機關地位最高的權力最大的連在立法院內部"},{"start":4143.717,"end":4171.707,"text":"的監督質詢民主運作居然韓院長跟周秘書長聯手立院最大在立法院的內部也成了一個上癮之前說違憲上癮現在是立院最大已經都成癮了所以今天我們除了再次的提出譴責之外我們要很嚴正的表達"},{"start":4173.127,"end":4196.838,"text":"這不是針對任何的個人立法院的秘書長今天是周萬來過去有林志嘉有不同的人未來也會有新的人來接任但不管誰擔任這個職務都要恪遵議事中立我們關切的不是對於個人的批判而是對於制度的捍衛"},{"start":4198.118,"end":4220.003,"text":"昨天我們的主席莊昭偉說得非常好周恩來一再地藐視國會缺席司法法治委員會依程序議題合理正當所發出的備詢的邀請這個作為是對整個民主制度的背叛"},{"start":4222.336,"end":4238.43,"text":"這樣子的缺席藐視國會不循程序請假甚至要造成我們的會議沒有辦法進行這樣的惡行惡狀是一種對於台灣國會民主制度的背叛原來啊"},{"start":4241.482,"end":4268.259,"text":"我們的院長就是始作俑者居然院長無視於我們的內規院長要意識中立院長更要政治中立但是呢我們韓院長426上凱道我們固然尊重他的言論自由但是身為立法院的院長用許多不倫不類的比喻"},{"start":4271.041,"end":4288.827,"text":"來闡述台灣現在民主的危機我如果要套用韓院長的話他所謂的賴清德只會清一色而事實上真正清一色的人就不折不扣是韓國瑜"},{"start":4290.373,"end":4301.38,"text":"因為立法院已經成了藍白一色這藍白一色是什麼就是意識毫不中立政治也毫不公正"},{"start":4302.611,"end":4327.353,"text":"那只要藍白要的什麼都給都開綠燈只要少數黨民進黨的主張一再的被噤聲被閹割下一頁第一個最大的檔案是議事爭議也就是週三召委所排的這個議案想就教於周恩來秘書長違法會議可以弄假成真嗎非法表決"},{"start":4330.195,"end":4345.142,"text":"可以成为国会的惯例吗如果以现在国民党上上下下挺作弊挺违法挺造假的这个逻辑看来"},{"start":4346.704,"end":4369.403,"text":"周恩來乃至於韓國瑜院長在立法院所進行的非法會議違法表決也不過是整個國民黨體系系統性集體性的一種違法作弊的行為的延伸所以郭平動上上下下一個樣"},{"start":4370.902,"end":4399.838,"text":"我這裡列舉出來的議事爭議包括第一大類違反程序正義國會沒了民主討論第二大類是議事雙標行政中立蕩然無存第三大類是操弄行政程序居然可以把立法院三讀通過的法案作為人質肉票壓在立法院不送就不送"},{"start":4400.999,"end":4421.067,"text":"想送才送出包括選罷法延宕35天才送出裁劃法延宕62天才送出包括總預算延了30天送出一個沒有完整數額前所未見的預算審查案細節我就不多說"},{"start":4422.407,"end":4439.725,"text":"所以說 韓國瑜院長的藍白一色 韓國瑜院長的青一色就是一再的護航包庇藍白拔拍掉 意識不中立 成為台灣民主的常態其實剛剛裴宇委員說我們在這裡對著空氣說話 其實是蠻煎熬的"},{"start":4445.871,"end":4470.963,"text":"那我今天也有一點另外的感慨週一週三司法法治委員會有許多的媒體同仁來關切他們想要探尋立法院的秘書長會成為違法院的秘書長嗎週一週三還有很多媒體關切這個事但今天週四媒體在現場已經寥寥無幾"},{"start":4474.997,"end":4501.402,"text":"我要說的是如果在立法院舉手表決第一次民主倒退30年在國會擴權法案表決的時候舉手表決造成台灣社會多大的震撼可是第二次第三次在12月20號的限訴法選報法裁判法再一次動用舉手表決的時候台灣的社會可能已經麻木了可能覺得"},{"start":4503.386,"end":4526.802,"text":"過去有舉手表決 那現在再來一次也沒什麼關係了就像今天會議一樣周恩來一次不來 兩次不來媒體會追蹤 會報導 社會會譴責 會批判可是到第三次的時候 整個社會恐怕也麻木了一個立法院秘書長對於制度的背叛"},{"start":4528.674,"end":4553.342,"text":"當社會都已經麻木不仁不再關切也就是讓惡力成了慣例讓違法成了常態我認為這真的是台灣民主最大的悲哀所以周恩來秘書長號稱立法院的活字典我們從國會助理大學讀書研究所念政治一再的都會拜讀周恩來秘書長所寫的議事規則"},{"start":4556.519,"end":4578.778,"text":"但是當他自己踐踏了打臉了過去書中所闡述的意識規則跟意識中立那讓這樣子的意識不中立成為立院的常態我真的覺得比悲哀更悲哀下一頁我進入第二個主題就是國會擴簽件的爭議"},{"start":4581.46,"end":4602.07,"text":"是周一召委用心良苦想要了解的議題在游錫堃院長擔任第十屆立法院院長的時候國會擴建 簽建有具體的進程跟規劃甚至在2021年啟動成立了產官學研跨領域的專家委員會"},{"start":4604.464,"end":4621.742,"text":"經過幾年的討論也評選出六處優先考慮的擴遷建的基地長址包括中正紀念堂的園區包括空總的舊址也有委員提出土城看守所的限址"},{"start":4622.503,"end":4638.715,"text":"也有人提出台中成功嶺的營區或是高鐵彰化車站特定區乃至於中興文化創意產業園區在南投這是過去的第十屆專家學者討論的幾個擴建基地的選址我們以為"},{"start":4644.911,"end":4671.102,"text":"這樣子的討論會延伸不論選擇在哪裡台灣要作為一個國會的民主表徵它能夠成為民主監督的基地可以成為公民社會成炕的場域可以成為台灣民主教育的空間能夠成為國會外交的場址可以成為民主觀光的景點"},{"start":4672.783,"end":4690.783,"text":"當初這是由院長提出來的幾個宏觀的vision但是到韓院長的任內呢他一再推給黨團來協商再來討論後續但是黨團要不要協商是韓院長你要不要主持啊"},{"start":4692.004,"end":4704.409,"text":"韓院長就把立法院的擴建簽件這個時代的使命推給黨團協商而他本人不開協商然後連帶影響立法院已經編列的709萬的先期規劃評估報告一直暫緩執行到現在"},{"start":4713.334,"end":4738.854,"text":"所以擴遷建的爭議我們需要有宏觀遠見的立院院長來持續的撥劃擴大公共的討論很可惜那個具有宏觀遠見的立院院長不是韓國瑜下一頁我昨天在會議上也對召委提出詢問如果周恩來秘書長成了周不來"},{"start":4740.526,"end":4768.658,"text":"我們這會期要解凍預算那立法院的解凍預算不解凍了嗎雖然立法院的解凍預算金額不高好像只有800多萬但是循程序秘書長還是要來列席而我這邊具體針對立法院的預算執行的爭議我也想要就叫周萬來秘書長我相信他現在正在看直播"},{"start":4770.066,"end":4786.218,"text":"立法院一直二砍二删其他的憲法機關的預算其他政院部會的預算可是韓院長花錢不手軟用公帑來做個人的人情院長不折不扣就是康樂股長我們看看喔"},{"start":4788.832,"end":4809.244,"text":"這一張照片是國民黨的委員他在社群上PO出的他很開心的說韓院長呢很體恤立法院的職工員工買了五星級精華五星級精華酒店的月餅禮盒每一盒高達1380元立法院的職員工有1149位換算出來這一個花大錢"},{"start":4819.458,"end":4842.616,"text":"來做人情的花費就高達159萬我們認為職員工都很辛苦可是過去沒有任何一個院長花這麼大的金額一次性而且是五星級的月餅這是對應於我們在二崁二山其他院預算的同時間"},{"start":4845.802,"end":4864.647,"text":"立法院長可以這樣大手筆的花錢然後容許我們持續的去惡砍別人的預算嗎 下一頁預算的爭議還有一個立法院的電梯 中心大樓的三座電梯一直故障 怎麼修怎麼故障"},{"start":4866.551,"end":4889.384,"text":"韓院長很重視 所以要編預算再來修 我們支持 因為這涉及安全可是呢 立法院的預算這麼多 可是我赫然發現立法院要修電梯啟動的二倍金2350萬 是要求行政院之應啊"},{"start":4890.485,"end":4915.72,"text":"立法院修電梯自己不掏錢拗行政院買單而這個時刻還是立法院在大砍行政院預算的時間這樣的預算爭議立法院花不起這筆錢嗎周恩來秘書長在直播的另一邊您好好思索這個問題希望您以書面回答 下一頁"},{"start":4917.358,"end":4941.684,"text":"我也要請立法院秘書長以書面回答當我們砍監察院的預算砍了97%連監察院買衛生紙都綁手綁腳可是立法院添購新的設備卻是大手大腳大手筆我就發現最近立法院一直在換電視我不曉得張偉還有在場的委員是不是觀察我們的辦公室的電視一換再換"},{"start":4944.52,"end":4948.642,"text":"113年貸換一次花了將近160萬114年又編了將近125萬加36萬要再換100台的電視電視都壞光了嗎為什麼一直大手筆的在花錢呢就我自己的辦公室電視都還可以觀看都還很新為什麼要花這些冤枉錢好再來講電話"},{"start":4974.471,"end":4982.817,"text":"我赫然發現立法院編列預算汰換電話2900台以及行動分機500台藥花公帑6,899萬當我們大砍其他的部會的預算的時候我們自己買電視換電話這樣子的預算執行爭議請周萬來秘書長用書面答覆"},{"start":5004.025,"end":5024.855,"text":"第三個主題是今天召委排的主題小心匪諜就在立法院這絕對是嚴肅的國安漏洞公民監督聯盟所票選出來2024立法院的代表字居然是匪共匪這個匪"},{"start":5026.892,"end":5034.082,"text":"代表共諜是不是滲透進入了立法院這已經成為社會高度關注的議題下一頁"},{"start":5036.553,"end":5061.351,"text":"袁紅冰教授去年已經點出習近平下達指示在立法院的新國會鎖定韓國瑜、鎖定傅坤祺乃至於附隨組織黃國昌只要能夠影響這三人戰場就在立法院不論是以查弊案之名來破壞台灣的國防自主或經濟安全"},{"start":5062.492,"end":5083.833,"text":"或者是用國會改革的名義來遂行國會的擴權讓立法院成為台灣實體政治權力最大的舞台當然還包括要強化跟中國的統戰互動這些等等袁紅冰作家教授所說的每一件事情都應驗了下一頁"},{"start":5085.054,"end":5110.768,"text":"所以說共諜的爭議無所不在無孔不入國會極有可能是破口法務部我們上週所排列的專案報告吳宗憲委員所排的法務部所提出來的匪諜滲透的破口沒有辦法提到立法院因為立法院要自我克責自己來保密防諜下一頁"},{"start":5112.267,"end":5133.005,"text":"但是共諜的事件層出不窮是不分黨派在立法院藍白委員最近都在打2025年4月發生的前院長游錫堃辦公室的助理涉及向中共洩露立法院的相關機密當然該辦有共諜一定要辦不分黨派"},{"start":5134.326,"end":5144.411,"text":"但是藍白的委員不要忘了2020年立委陳淑慧的前助理立委張立善的前助理都涉犯了共諜案"},{"start":5146.745,"end":5166.951,"text":"2024年李上典郭沛晶兩位涉及收受中國的資助來為立委鄭天才助選免費招待選民赴中旅遊2024年的8月民眾黨的發言人桃園黨部馬志威收受中國資助百萬來選立委"},{"start":5170.092,"end":5191.633,"text":"這不都是共諜滲透的明證嗎更不要說陳玉珍號稱他的助理游志斌有中國籍還來大鬧國會所以要查共諜不分黨派都有被滲透的可能或是現在進行是大家修法立法要一起來下一頁"},{"start":5193.632,"end":5222.912,"text":"我具体的提出现在公部门对于公务人员的查核拒绝或者是情治人员国安人员资安人员有不同的查核跟调查的程序跟这个分级分类立法院目前没有任何查核或拒绝的机制请在线上观看直播的周万来秘书长好好来研究一套国会如何防范共谍"},{"start":5223.812,"end":5237.811,"text":"的自我克責跟相關的內規這是立法院要做的事不分黨派都要來做來最後而民進黨在這裡宣誓民進黨"},{"start":5239.817,"end":5266.114,"text":"會先行就以附中登載公開揭露的這件事情在立委的層次我們修的兩岸人民關係條例港澳人民關係條例等等已經被藍白聯手擋了363次如果說連立委附中登載一再被擋那未來如果要擴及立委的團隊助理"},{"start":5267.034,"end":5289.512,"text":"恐怕在立法院也很難過關但是民進黨團會先行我們已經啟動研議針對民進黨團的立委或助理群我們研議已簽同意書來做到主動揭露附中的相關資訊希望能夠藉由這樣子的一個動作"},{"start":5291.033,"end":5303.401,"text":"公開的登載能夠來達到事前報備事後報告來做很多防止共諜滲透的可能性的防範"},{"start":5304.744,"end":5327.932,"text":"所以藍白不做的民進黨團會先行但是我剛剛就教於周恩來秘書長的立法院如何建立一個內部的自我管控自我克責國會的自律針對防止共諜滲透的這件事情請立法院要以書面報告來答覆委員會"},{"start":5329.452,"end":5352.752,"text":"最後我用一分鐘的時間我要代表柯建民總召他已經具體針對周萬來秘書長高百祥議事處長還有郭明正法治局長具體提出了刑事的告發而告發的理由當然奠基於這一年來"},{"start":5354.738,"end":5375.468,"text":"被告周萬來高百祥身為立法院重要行政幕僚本應依公務員服務法及相關職責來確保議事程序之中立公正與合法為兩人明知議事規則之適用卻蓄意濫權代呼職務協助違反正常運作"},{"start":5377.413,"end":5405.654,"text":"協助違反議事的正常運作並縱容議事失序進而造成國會內部的民主癱瘓立委投票權也屢屢遭受非法妨礙因此柯建民總召對於上述三位提出了刑法第130條公務員廢除職務釀成災害罪來提起刑事的告發所以在這裡"},{"start":5407,"end":5433.68,"text":"這一個告發已經提出不管是公務員要送工程會懲戒或者是來做進行司法後續的告發跟偵辦我想民進黨團我們針對的不是個人我們針對的是對國會民主的制度那也要最後請教於昭偉我看到吳宗憲昭偉已經排了下週的議程"},{"start":5435.802,"end":5453.123,"text":"如果州案來所引用的立法院各委員會組織法第二條成立的話吳宗憲下周他不能排任何一個未經院會交付的專題報告可是他禮拜一跟禮拜三都排了專題報告"},{"start":5454.898,"end":5481.625,"text":"如果韓國瑜引用的條文成立的話吳宗憲召委也不得邀請擔任幕僚長的總統府秘書長國安會秘書長列席司法法治委員會所以這不是雙標什麼是雙標這不是藍白要的什麼都可以少數黨所排的案一律都封殺所以奧勒拜拿捏這幾個秘書長"},{"start":5484.269,"end":5504.011,"text":"是不是也可以如同州案來秘書長一樣不請假就不來開會這樣的專案報告是不是就不能成立不能成會我們不能監督不能質詢不能討論了呢所以這是一個非常嚴正的提問那我也在這裡結束我今天的"},{"start":5505.382,"end":5520.698,"text":"三次會議集合一次的質詢我們希望列為議事記錄希望在線上觀看的周秘書長周秘書長好好的以書面報告來回答今天本席所提出來的相關問題"},{"start":5522.355,"end":5524.478,"text":"好 謝謝吳世耀委員跟委員會報告接下來請審發會委員 審判員就不快點了那審判委員提書面所有登記委員"},{"start":5538.339,"end":5560.283,"text":"都已經發言完畢委員質詢要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會委員稱陪於審判會所提書面質詢均列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關書面做答覆主席在這邊主席在這邊在特別在強調在強調"},{"start":5570.031,"end":5592.968,"text":"按照我們憲法第67條啊我們立法院本來就是得設各種委員會然後各個委員會呢得邀請政府人員跟社會有關係人員到會來備詢我們立法院的秘書處啊你不能享受這個公務人員的一個保障然後卻完全不盡義務發了"},{"start":5600.575,"end":5620.642,"text":"一篇新聞稿這絕對不會是免死金牌五院都是憲政機關你就把它看司法院秘書長還有考試院秘書長甚至於行政院秘書長還有監察院秘書長"},{"start":5622.762,"end":5648.604,"text":"都來到社會法治委員會來備詢行政院秘書長當然是在內政委員會也就是說各個憲政機關五院裡面院長的部分當然是基於整個憲政上的一個尊重都是秘書長都會到立法院來備詢今天我們看到從過去的慣例過去的慣例"},{"start":5650.134,"end":5674.947,"text":"不管是國民黨當召委或是民進黨當召委立法院秘書長都會到社法局委員會來做專題報告並備詢而且呢憲法67條也明文我們本來各委員會可以邀請政務人員到會來備詢那所以呢周萬來秘書長他不是不知道周萬來秘書長他其實"},{"start":5677.268,"end":5692.539,"text":"也到過我們不管是鍾嘉斌委員 或者說吳宗憲 趙偉他們在張昭偉的時候都邀請他們到我們委員會裡面來備詢過那刻意的這個禮拜開始就不來了 目無法際"},{"start":5694.045,"end":5711.061,"text":"那你講不出理由不敢來發個新聞稿當民使金牌 這個很明顯就是迴避監督保守又反動 毫無民主素養 還是要提出譴責接下來我們看臨時提案"},{"start":5722.654,"end":5724.275,"text":"還沒硬先宣讀吧我們現在收到委員提出臨時提案那依本會的往例通常是在上午11點處理但是今天列席的機關都會到場請問在場的委員我們是否現在處理臨時提案那請宣讀"},{"start":5745.585,"end":5767.431,"text":"臨時提案 立法院秘書長周萬來 議事處處長高百祥 法治局局長郭明正等人未經請假程序 近自缺席司法及法治委員會未提供會議主題之書面報告文件 更曲解毋庸立院內規立法院各委員會組織法第二條今日三度缺席 再次迴避國會監督 嚴重踐踏民主 呆乎職責 藐視國會"},{"start":5769.311,"end":5786.378,"text":"惡例已成慣例 違法已成常態 特此提出譴責提案人委員 莊瑞雄 吳思瑤 王逸川 審發會陳培宇 宣讀完畢請問在場委員有補充說明針對臨時提案 請問機關有其他意見或說明如果沒有的話 臨時提案 照案通過那本次啊 會議啊就到此結束現在 散會 謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16638","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16638","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd62c05bd4558c40868bd03a951da4504b14bfadd538e1bbbfd6bbacbeac2417305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案。二、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案。三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案。四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公平發展法草案」案。五、審查委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案。六、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案。\n【僅進行詢答】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-01","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-01T08:30:14+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-01T13:43:00+08:00","duration":18766,"影片長度":"05:12:46","委員發言時間":"08:30:14 - 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欢迎订阅我的频道"},{"start":1792.199,"end":1820.66,"text":"好 各位請就座好 各位今天出席委員已足法定人數現在我們開會首先介紹我們立法委員黃宏威來 幫我先拍一下另外因為今天是五一勞動節"},{"start":1822.179,"end":1844.974,"text":"很辛苦的是我們的媒體朋友所以也借大家的手你們的辛苦大家都知道了來 五一勞動節給他拍一下這是額外的 額外現在那我來介紹我們列席官員首先我們介紹數位部的黃燕蘭部長林怡靜次長"},{"start":1851.957,"end":1877.038,"text":"林靜秀署長資通署的蔡福隆署長國家通信研究院院長林宇達財團法人電信技術中心林飛堂執行長財團法人台灣網路資訊中心黃董事長黃勝雄董事長"},{"start":1880.265,"end":1907.114,"text":"財團法人資訊工業刺激會執行長 換敬裕執行長國家通訊傳播委員會代理主委 陳崇樹主委文化部 李敬會政次公平交易會主任秘書 毛浩傑勞動部政次 李建宏"},{"start":1909.791,"end":1916.455,"text":"職業安全署副組長張義武斌經濟部商業發展署副署長劉雅堅智慧財產著作組組長洪聖毅國庫署檢任集合楊伯亨"},{"start":1934.991,"end":1959.951,"text":"楊博存副稅署專門委員林美惠國科會辦公室代理主任郭子仙內政部合作人民司專門委員陳俊廷法務部參事廖江憲司法院行政訴訟懲戒廳法官陳彥寧"},{"start":1965.697,"end":1966.979,"text":"主計總署專門委員張正輝以上那現在"},{"start":1978.11,"end":2003.718,"text":"現在本日會議正式進行我們新聞媒體與數位平台議價法的草案總共有四個案數位新聞發展與民主任性法草案等兩案的審查那今天我們提案人我們王宏威請他提案說明"},{"start":2009.349,"end":2030.622,"text":"那就拜託控制三分鐘好謝謝主席以及現場的各位官員還有在勞動節還在上班的各位媒體朋友那今天呢我們這個相關的法規的制定就跟我們廣大的這個媒體業者跟從業人員有非常大的關聯"},{"start":2032.343,"end":2055.568,"text":"大家都知道媒體溢價法在國內其實討論了非常非常久尤其在國外尤其Google好像還有Facebook這些大型的數位平台他們長期是用無常性的來使用傳統的媒體的新聞所以在國內外都討論要怎麼樣去建立制度"},{"start":2056.368,"end":2079.254,"text":"那麼以國外經驗來說現在在國際上大概有三種模式一個是澳洲模式就是商業溢價跟強制仲裁的模式另外還有歐盟的模式以及加拿大的模式為了促進數位平台跟新聞媒體產業能夠平衡的發展建立對等的協商機制"},{"start":2080.074,"end":2103.869,"text":"所以本席的修法的方向我提出了是新闻媒体与数位平台强制溢价法那么我采取的就是澳洲模式强调商业溢价跟强制仲裁由公正的第三方以最终报价仲裁法决定数位平台应该给付给新闻媒体的授权金额"},{"start":2104.75,"end":2128.773,"text":"大家都知道我們世上媒體第四權是我們民主社會絕對不能夠缺少的角色而且它有監督公權力的義務但是大家也知道以台灣來說其實我們的媒體呢其實非常的跑爆核而且長期以來甚至出現了一些特定的媒體啊那麼長期是依賴政府的標案而來生存的"},{"start":2129.173,"end":2136.499,"text":"那其實這個都不是一個健康的一個趨勢所以呢我們認為應該用這樣的一個法令讓我們媒體的產業它的收益啊得到應有的合理的報酬然後以免我們監督政府"},{"start":2147.768,"end":2170.993,"text":"監督公共政策的第四權的功能示威另外我要特別講到在司法院對本席的提案裡面有提到合法秘密保持命令認為應該由仲裁庭交付給智慧財產法庭這部分我認為是可以接受的我決定也會從善如流"},{"start":2171.813,"end":2186.491,"text":"但是出發部最近示警說我們如果實施媒體溢價立法可能會引來美國的關稅報復我覺得這一點事實上真的是拿美國跟川普來做擋箭牌"},{"start":2187.892,"end":2199.362,"text":"而且在台灣尤其我們面對對等關稅事實上也都還沒有提及這一點如果我們就此未說然後因為所謂的美國壓力卻犧牲了廣大台灣"},{"start":2203.966,"end":2206.389,"text":"媒體以及媒體從業人員的合理的權益我認為第一個這沒有真正的來捍衛我們媒體的權益第二個而我們所剛才我所提到的讓我們的媒體權是是為然後"},{"start":2220.467,"end":2245.092,"text":"削弱了他們監督公共政策監督政府的這樣的一個力量這樣子絕對是得不償失的所以我個人認為述發部這樣的一個說法事實上並不應該成為阻擋我們媒體溢價法相關法規的制定以上謝謝謝謝我們王宏威提案人的說明"},{"start":2246.459,"end":2257.412,"text":"好那我再補充介紹我們本會委員洪孟凱委員張祺凱委員好現在台灣民眾黨黨團提案說明由張祺凱委員說明時間三分鐘"},{"start":2281.877,"end":2310.96,"text":"今天這個法非常非常重要而且事實上已經大家爭取了好幾年了它有兩個非常重要的第一個就是對我們整體的媒體產業跟環境有很大一個幫助第二個對我們的新聞從業人員幫助為非常非常的大今天我非常高興看到這個數位發展部提出支持新聞有價這看起來是大家是共同要努力的"},{"start":2312.369,"end":2338.057,"text":"那今天比較大的這個爭議點就是剛剛黃薇在提的社會發展部認為會不會碰到高關稅的問題那我今天非常具體的跟大家講不會有這個問題現在民進黨提的是要成立一個基金所以會碰到這個問題國民黨現在提的就直接議價譬如說有TVBS或者有聯合報直接跟這個曾孤我去議價那這個問題就解決了"},{"start":2340.12,"end":2361.045,"text":"那台灣民眾黨的提案是雙軌就是我們有民進黨提的這個基金又直接溢價這個方式那如果是會發展部擔心擔心這個碰到高關稅的問題我做兩個建議第一個我們先把法令把這個法制面把它做好不要因內廢時我先強調這句話我們先把法制面"},{"start":2362.64,"end":2392.34,"text":"可以議價的這一塊趕快把它做好今天這個案子最重要是什麼就跟時間是在賽跑啦因為拖太久了而且比較先進的國家你看澳洲、加拿大、歐盟事實上他們都已經跟這個大型的這個大型的像Google、像臉書他們都有達成了一部分的這個協議了那事實上他們這比他們第一個他們目前都是用無廠嘛對不對他平常在滑手機在電腦你就看到非常多都是我們台灣的媒體從業人員跟我們的這個媒體非常辛苦的"},{"start":2393.66,"end":2419.231,"text":"的這個新聞啊那現在變成是新聞是無價的導致這個媒體本身也這個長期是虧損的所以我們就是說第一個是跟國際的這個比較進步的國家是接軌的第二個對我們的產業還有我們工作人員都是有幫助的那很高興今天社會發展部也跟我們是站在一起的就是新聞有價這塊我們好好來做那第二個既然你們提出有餘力現在又碰到川普這個高關稅那這個很容易可以解決的"},{"start":2420.813,"end":2435.963,"text":"我認為 包括這個台灣民眾黨啊我們可以 我們本來是雙軌那我們可以去贊成不見得要成立這個基金會我們就用直接議價 就我剛剛講的我們今天這個法例很重要我們就是通過這個立法之後"},{"start":2437.216,"end":2463.216,"text":"有一個法律的這個依據讓所有這個媒體可以跟Google可以跟臉書跟這個大型的這個社會平台開始進行議價這是今天我覺得是當務之急好不好所以不要擔心不要一捏會死說好像因為關公費的事情就沒辦法解決事實上是不會的那我簡單的報告一下這個我們台灣民眾黨啊對這個案子非常非常的這個重視"},{"start":2464.861,"end":2490.44,"text":"因為現在台灣的這個媒體環境確實是不好確實不好 它有兩個部分一個就是很多的媒體是長期的這個虧損那第二個也是很嚴重的對我們的新聞從業人員辛辛苦苦你不管是攝影或者是很多這個媒體人辛辛苦苦在工作到回來都是無償這個真的是非常不好那我初步算了一下我們去看了以前這個資料例如說Google它一年可能在台灣例如說可以賺到大概400億營業額"},{"start":2492.506,"end":2510.143,"text":"那如果比較先進國家他應該大概是5%左右400億乘以5%應該就有20億那這20億的這個挹注如果臉書那邊也可以談出來或者比較大型的這個數位平台我們都可以透過強制的這個溢價給他法源之後有20幾億30幾億的錢進到我們這個媒體環境來那第一個我們的新聞從業人員"},{"start":2515.575,"end":2532.363,"text":"他們的智慧財產也受到這個尊重了新聞是有價的第二個對媒體本身也可以很大的一個改善好不好我們就共同趕快做這件事情今天最後做一個總結我們跟時間賽跑這是第一個所以我呼籲這個法要趕快過那第二個不要因淚匯食"},{"start":2533.784,"end":2553.413,"text":"包括台灣民眾黨本來是雙軌的我們可以在修等一下在討論的時候把這個基金會這個或許就可以把它修掉我們可以比較在這個強制這個議價這邊趕快來做好不好我們共同來努力很期待啦很期待今天這個案子可以趕快過那這個案子對我們台灣的這個媒體環境真的幫助會很大請大家共同來努力謝謝謝謝我們張其凱委員代表台灣民眾黨提案說明"},{"start":2561.089,"end":2582.968,"text":"那因為提案說明委員其他未到所以我們就接下來請機關代表來報告那因為今天委員文化部也有公評會但是因為節省時間的關係也敬請大家書面參頁那只有兩個單位來做報告那現在"},{"start":2583.508,"end":2594.828,"text":"就請數位部跟通傳會這兩個單位來做報告那現在請數位部的黃燕蘭部長時間希望在八分鐘以內"},{"start":2603.792,"end":2623.113,"text":"主席各位委員還有與會機關代表今天數位發展部很榮幸應邀到委員會來做數位平台與新聞媒體議價進度報告並針對大院委員所提的相關法案提出本部的看法懇請委員提供寶貴意見"},{"start":2625.015,"end":2638.468,"text":"蘇哈部自支持新聞有價自行政院交下媒體議價任務以來積極收集各國發展的趨勢包括強制議價權跟著作臨階權同時也關注媒體議價相關的國際政治情勢的發展"},{"start":2645.865,"end":2672.411,"text":"認為媒體議價的立法仍需審慎評估說明如下 請大院指教第一 國際發展趨勢第一個是強制議價權強制議價權模式是由澳洲跟加拿大率先採行立法規定符合資格的大型數位平台必須和新聞媒體進行議價如雙方協商無法達成協議則需進行協調及強制仲裁的程序"},{"start":2673.371,"end":2697.168,"text":"澳洲於2021年通過《新聞媒體溢價法》之後Google與Meta極主動跟數十家新聞媒體達成協議預計每年提供約2億澳幣的資金但是Meta於2024年3月改變政策宣布不再與新聞媒體出版商續約未來也不再展開新一輪的商業合作"},{"start":2698.189,"end":2708.538,"text":"加拿大在2023年通過《線上新聞法》之後Google為了爭取加拿大政府豁免其強制溢價權的義務承諾自2024年期每年捐1億的加幣為期5年但是相對的Meta為了規避強制溢價義務選擇全面封鎖新聞內容"},{"start":2719.407,"end":2736.652,"text":"導致新聞媒體流量明顯下降尤其對中小媒體的衝擊最為嚴重英國經濟學人雜誌指出加拿大原來原是透過立法輔助新聞產業結果反而造成傷害"},{"start":2737.392,"end":2765.44,"text":"整體而言強資溢價權雖然利益良善但是如果Meta等大型社群媒體平台選擇停止提供新聞連結結果受傷害的反而是新聞媒體第二 國家國際發展趨勢第二個就是著作臨接權著作臨接權的模式主要是在歐盟各國實施簡單來說就是透過修改著作權法賦予新聞出版者"},{"start":2766.496,"end":2795.431,"text":"一項類似著作權的請求權數位平台如果需要用新聞內容就必須取得授權並支付費用目前歐盟27國就已完成相關的立法然而採取凝結權的方式未能有效改善新聞媒體與數位平台之間的談判權利不對等的問題雖然設有請求權機制實務正義正需由司法機關裁決處理時間冗長而且成本高昂對數位平台而言"},{"start":2796.604,"end":2815.533,"text":"儘管Google曾投入大量資源簽署授權協議但因法律定義不明,能產生很多爭議Meta於2023年底宣布在Facebook終止專門提供新聞內容的Facebook News的夜簽並表示未來不再簽訂相關的商業協議"},{"start":2818.601,"end":2842.746,"text":"另外一個我們要討論一下國際情勢的發展的變化挑戰美國自川普政府上台之後持續強調建立公平且富貴的貿易關係近期美國貿易代表署及副國家安全顧問都針對十項不公平數位貿易慣例發表聲明或評論指稱包括澳洲跟加拿大在內的媒體議價立法已經損害了美國經濟利益美國"},{"start":2846.54,"end":2861.586,"text":"政府認為澳洲和加拿大皆針對美國大型數位平台設限以資助其當地新聞出版商推估美國企業的造成傷害成本達到3.1億美元使美國企業處於不利的地位"},{"start":2862.466,"end":2881.306,"text":"在這種國際氣氛氛圍之下澳洲曾於2024年底提出徵收數位平台廣告年度營業額5%的法案隨即因為美國關稅保護威脅而撤除假如我國未來實施類似媒體溢價法也不排除可能引發美國採關稅保護措施的風險"},{"start":2885.041,"end":2912.822,"text":"第四個本部隊相關草案的意見目前大院有林儲殷委員等擬拒新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案羅廷維委員等擬拒新聞媒體與數位平台強制議價草案王宏威委員等擬拒新聞媒體與數位平台強制議價法草案台灣民眾黨團擬拒新聞媒體與數位科技平台公平發展法草案"},{"start":2913.522,"end":2935.403,"text":"林怡瑾委員等一具數位新聞發展與民主任性法草案范雲委員等一具數位新聞發展與民主任性法草案等六項法案大致採行強制溢價的模式希望建立溢價機制要求數位平台付費"},{"start":2937.029,"end":2947.121,"text":"並以調解或仲裁的方式來處理爭議部分提案已要求將部分收益用於改善新聞從業人員的勞動條件利益良善抒發部將持續追蹤國際趨勢並適時與委員溝通最後抒發部"},{"start":2954.479,"end":2980.993,"text":"堅持支持新聞有價的核心理念也認同確保媒體永續發展是行政立法部門的共識為鑒於當前國際情勢變化AI等新興科技的挑戰以及國內法治及配套措施的複雜性現階段我們認為以審慎參照國際發展趨勢廣泛凝聚社會共識方能兼顧新聞媒體發展數位平台合理營運"},{"start":2981.994,"end":3003.536,"text":"及社會大眾整體權益 以上報告進行指教好 謝謝我們數位部黃部長的報告現在請通傳會的代主委陳代主委報告一樣時間控制在8分鐘以內"},{"start":3008.208,"end":3025.606,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 先生 大家早通常會奉邀列席貴委員會就新聞媒體與數位平台溢價法草案審查會議現在請在要提出報告於下請看書面報告第二頁這邊"},{"start":3028.057,"end":3049.25,"text":"目前根據近期發展包括Google及Meta在內的美國國內與通訊產業協會已在今年3月正式向美國貿易代表署提交申訴書指控各國新聞媒體議價相關法規涉及歧視美國企業此舉對國內相關政策影響尚待觀察"},{"start":3051.158,"end":3068.894,"text":"接下來在我國現況部分請報告通常會負責的產業調查部分在第三頁這邊本會依據行政院跨部會協調工作小組在110年委外研究的研究結論大致如下"},{"start":3070.222,"end":3097.811,"text":"新聞有價 數位平台應合理的分潤研究也發現過去十年來 不論廣告市場或民眾接觸新聞管道均大幅移到數位平台電視新聞業者為求生存也投入相當資源進行數位轉型強化自身網站或大型數位平台的經營希望開拓受眾與財源但是業者面臨與數位平台合作透明度不足的問題"},{"start":3099.291,"end":3122.722,"text":"來自數位平台的廣告分潤有限且不穩定投入成本與回報不成比例加上平台上有若干充斥詐騙的訊息影響媒體的品牌形象數位平台與新聞業者雖然號稱是夥伴關係但是這個關係是不對等的接下來摘要報告書面報告第4頁這邊後續的作為部分"},{"start":3127.679,"end":3149.75,"text":"新聞議價議題本質上是數位經濟時代傳統產業與大型數位平台市場力量不對等規範重點在於建立雙方公開透明互惠互利的合作機制通常會為廣電新聞媒體的主管機關支持新聞有價更尊重媒體專業自主"},{"start":3151.957,"end":3179.651,"text":"不論採行何種措施相關機制的設計均應該確保新聞媒體的獨立性不受不當干預本會尊重大院的決定或持續配合行政院協調小組織指示與分工於職長範圍內參與政策研議討論及產業意見的收集共同致力建構數位時代的健全新聞媒體生態以上報告"},{"start":3182.321,"end":3211.06,"text":"好謝謝我們陳代主委那以上就其以各單位的報告我們就請各位參佐書面資料我們就簡略並列入紀錄刊登公報來現在我們現在進行巡打先宣告以上事項巡打的時間出席委員"},{"start":3212.743,"end":3238.008,"text":"6分鐘 列席委員4分鐘因為今天我們是交通跟這個教育兩個單位啊這個聯席聯席會議所以時間就拜託大家就節省時間那委員花言在10點30分截止各委員如果有臨時提案請10點鐘"},{"start":3240.444,"end":3255.575,"text":"提出以便藝術人員會診那暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午原則性不休息現在請登記第一位的洪孟楷委員執行"},{"start":3266.53,"end":3289.698,"text":"主席謝謝 麻煩請黃部長跟NCC陳代理主委好 那個黃部長 陳代主委好 部長好 代理主委好一直講新聞有價 NCC也講說支持立法但是到目前為止 我們都還是看到很多的空話"},{"start":3290.984,"end":3315.994,"text":"我說實在話為什麼民進黨政府會讓大家覺得是說會反Face就是因為死刑有在那邊但是我們看到好像政府的方向跟策略都一直往反Face的方向走如果說我們講說酒駕零容忍可是當酒駕事件一而再再而三發生的時候我們不提高罰則不針對立法有任何的主張或是改變或是加緊加嚴加"},{"start":3318.871,"end":3347.76,"text":"更嚴厲的執行那酒駕零容忍是含假的那剛過去我們看到我們確實有往這個方向走是酒駕零容忍但一樣速發部也好NCC也好今天一直講說新聞有價可是你們的報告充耳未聞沒有讓我們看到有任何的版本今天有六個委員的版本六個不同委員版本跨黨派版本但我請教一下行政部門版本在哪裡"},{"start":3348.939,"end":3372.911,"text":"那個報告委員這個議題我想兩年前就有在討論不只兩年前更久所以部長已經先證實了這個議題已經講了至少超過兩年以上但是到目前為止版本在哪裡因為這兩年有幾些事情發生造成這個議題變得更複雜一個當然就是技術的演進因為AI的出現讓整個這個所謂著作的問題來部長昨天"},{"start":3375.152,"end":3393.222,"text":"媒體報導已經有報導了我想請教到底為什麼一開始我們要推動所謂的新聞議價法或是不管是任何人講的不同名詞新聞任性平台還是新聞議價還是我們相關的為什麼要推動"},{"start":3394.437,"end":3413.522,"text":"最核心的理由是什麼我們當然新聞有價這個是最核心的理由我們推動這個我們當然就是說認為新聞有價是用什麼方法去推動我們一直在做研究跟觀察不是部長如果說你沒有辦法了解最核心你是主管機關如果說我們連為什麼要推動這最核心的理由講不出來"},{"start":3415.175,"end":3440.236,"text":"那個報告委員您指的是說為什麼要推動對為什麼要推動各國不管是現在澳洲加拿大歐盟等大家為什麼要推動最核心的理由基本上就是說因為現在這剛剛講就是講說現在很多新聞確實是就是這個平台上的新聞要怎麼樣跟新聞媒體來共融這個事情當然是大家要去協商但是我還是跟委員講就是說"},{"start":3441.236,"end":3462.783,"text":"最主要概念不就是因為新聞我們支持新聞有價我們希望新聞能夠獨立自主營運作業不受任何的干擾這其一所以他新聞有價嘛其二就是新聞媒體您剛講到整個市場環境有變遷所以現在新聞媒體的通路載具是完全不對等的"},{"start":3463.343,"end":3471.216,"text":"他面對到的是一個龐大的科技巨擘怪獸也因此個別的新聞媒體他可能很難去跟"},{"start":3472.89,"end":3498.588,"text":"社群平台來談判也因此才會各國有公部門來協助做一個平台嗎報告委員各國的意思在這邊如果是強制議價法就是澳洲但是澳洲這幾年實施下來就是我們針對的所謂的這個平台主要是針對Google跟Meta那事實上Meta這個整個的議價法在Meta完全不配合所以事實上這個我們觀察國際的這些發展"},{"start":3501.43,"end":3528.839,"text":"強迫議價法其實在澳洲只有澳洲14而且目前是沒有成功的所以部長本席剛剛有聆聽您的報告也聆聽NCC委員NCC主委的報告所以我都很理解但我們現在想要了解的是更進一步的部分就我也看到啊沒有錯我們一直是開放的態度六個委員不同的版本就是希望是我們往這個方向來走但重點是第一到目前為止兩年多來行政部門沒有版本這是具體的事實第二好"},{"start":3529.924,"end":3548.103,"text":"速發布的報告到目前為止你也沒有跟我們講說到底溝通了多少次結果NCC的報告告訴我們你們開了三輪八場會議好來我請教一下這三輪八場會議大型數位平台的對話會議誰主持"},{"start":3554.803,"end":3569.4,"text":"這個是由事務發部還有NCC的副組委還有這個事務發部誰主持事務發部也是次長三位次長聯席來主持那部長有沒有掌握這三次的會議"},{"start":3572.699,"end":3589.564,"text":"有跟我報告不過這個上次會議都在有跟你報告就好我請教我們現在也看到本席我還是開宗明義強調我們往新聞有價方向但是怎麼樣來做我們現在等於是討論到怎麼樣來做嘛對不對好那我們現在不管是有所謂"},{"start":3591.089,"end":3606.132,"text":"澳洲模式就是所謂的強制溢價模式也有討論到像歐盟模式著作臨接權模式或是基金模式那我們這三場八場會議裡面有沒有更聚焦的方向或共識"},{"start":3609.573,"end":3629.429,"text":"謝謝委員的指導事實上我們都知道的確我們今天為什麼有這個會議是因為現在台灣的媒體非常的辛苦因為傳統上來講媒體的收入有兩種一個是訂閱的收入另外一個是廣告的收入那因為現在大部分的民眾都不訂閱媒體了"},{"start":3630.37,"end":3654.972,"text":"然後所以他們就沒有媒體的訂閱的收入然後再來廣告的收入都被Meta跟Google收走了所以我們就事實上從澳洲開始就提出了這個媒體強制溢價法然後後來加拿大也跟進了但是很不幸的是說這些方法在澳洲跟加拿大都受到很大的反挫各位聽本席的問題回答問題好不好你不要講大家都知道的事情本席剛剛問什麼問題"},{"start":3656.988,"end":3672.604,"text":"就是有沒有是那個找那個委員會那個找那個各家媒體來溝通事實上我們不是我不是問這問題你問很多問題聽清楚聽清楚本席的問題再回答那不然你怎麼會部長怎麼會推你來回答謝謝那個不要這樣子藐視國會到這種程度來部長請您"},{"start":3677.268,"end":3691.553,"text":"告訴一下市長本席剛剛問什麼問題經過八次的討論以後因為這個是在我上任之前他剛剛跟我報告之後您上任之前八次會議是在您上任之前嗎對對對那八次會議是在我上任之前但是那個我上任之後是主要是跟一些工協會跟學者在討論這個議題"},{"start":3692.893,"end":3709.349,"text":"那我得到的那個那時候初步剛上任的時候想法是那時候認為著作臨階權是比較可行的方案著作臨階權但是現在因為歐盟實施了一年多兩年也發生了一些問題所以反而是讓我們覺得說因為我們看到這個強制議價法有問題著作臨階權也發生一些問題"},{"start":3713.412,"end":3728.997,"text":"基金也有問題所以三者都有問題但公共政策來講其實某種程度上沒有百分之百完美無瑕的政策怎麼樣能夠達到我們的政策目標方向所以現在我們有沒有比較聚焦"},{"start":3729.597,"end":3745.103,"text":"現在就是說因為在這個過程中後來Google有個共榮基金這個一個機制這個機制在過去三年提出三億的共榮基金這個可能是一個model我們還在看因為其實就兩個公司而已一個是Google一個是Meta怎麼讓Google跟Meta願意把這個一些來補助國內的新聞媒體部長那為什麼要立法"},{"start":3752.187,"end":3778.74,"text":"我們要立法的目的跟宗旨以及政府存在的價值就是因為我們絕對不可能把所有公共政策寄託在業者的善意上或是業者他自己今天想做那如果說明天不想做他不做所以有一些東西如果部長我們先肯定你剛剛講法是說你已經有先往八場會議有相對聚焦可能會以基金跟"},{"start":3781.254,"end":3807.988,"text":"駐駐隣接權的方向來走這可能會比較符合我們的國情但是不是最終提出來因為你的版本沒有可是重點在於是什麼重點在於是我們的立法還是要去有一個時程讓國人知道我們的國家方向是什麼來最後因為時間的關係最後我只請教一下你剛剛也提到就是兩家公司Meta跟Google"},{"start":3808.783,"end":3836.65,"text":"這兩家公司大家也都會使用但是它的規模大小不應該存在變成是我們政府好像沒有辦法去跟跨國公司來做談判對不對所以我們之前也一直講到Meta也好 Google也好有一些詐騙廣告它的一個部分我們也要採取強硬的態度來 內政部曾經講之前一直講說沒有法源那我們也一直講是說你們速發部要找這些業者來喝咖啡"},{"start":3837.81,"end":3860.02,"text":"因為沒有法源嘛 但現在我們今天有法源了那內政部也講是說會診資料 會診網路平台詐騙廣告三月送速發布來裁罰現在已經五月了 兩個月過去了過去三十天我們最多的詐騙 現在也講詐騙的金額一直創新高那我們過去三十天裡面最多詐騙廣告投放在哪裡所以過去三十天我們詐騙廣告最多投放在哪裡"},{"start":3867.74,"end":3890.532,"text":"速發部自己一樣是Meta來我們看一下下一頁你們的通報網百分之本席過去就用你們的通報網有來質詢過我也講這是你們上面的資料過去30天裡面百分之80以上都是Meta或Meta相關的公司好來回來上一頁"},{"start":3891.516,"end":3899.264,"text":"那這樣兩個月過去了過去30天至少有通報你們自己就已經有彙整就差不多快10萬筆那我們跟財閥"},{"start":3903.493,"end":3919.89,"text":"根據委員報告我們那個就通報我們只要在24小時內下架的話就並不違法那我們剛剛看到那個那都做到24小時下架嗎對 以我們訴發部這邊來講都是但是因為內政部那邊也有通報給那個META那內政部那邊表示說他有些他都配合因為國人的感覺"},{"start":3923.153,"end":3950.489,"text":"國人的感覺過去有一些詐騙形態確實有比較減少但是詐騙有沒有進行還是持續有尤其是投資詐騙現在更加的猖獗那我現在想要請教的就是內政部收集3月送數位部裁罰那到目前為止有沒有裁罰半件到目前為止我們都還沒有收到內政部還沒有收到內政部2月6號跟我們講說要送速發部結果過去三個月了"},{"start":3952.006,"end":3961.475,"text":"內政部沒有送到辦件來2月6號的中央社新聞內政部說3月要送抒發部裁罰就剛剛次長講的大白話"},{"start":3963.2,"end":3991.852,"text":"到現在5月1號了內政部兩個多月的時間沒有送辦件來給抒發過裁判難怪詐騙猖獗啊難怪詐騙滿天飛啊政府在忙什麼因為他要送來要檢出一些證據我們是在談哪些證據應該檢附我們才能夠做裁判所以這個也有費了一點時間因為他是要檢附台灣是第三世界社會我們中華民國是第三世界國家是不是內政委員會就在那邊"},{"start":3993.038,"end":4011.712,"text":"走路兩三十秒然後結果你跟我們講說二月的時候跟我們講說要裁罰結果現在兩個部會在踢皮球到現在沒有裁罰半件還不是沒有裁罰半件是連送來都還沒送來部長為什麼我現在那麼生氣"},{"start":4012.939,"end":4042.125,"text":"就是因為兩個部分過去你們一直跟我們講是說我們要有法源依據立法院要修法才能讓你們去裁罰我們去年是不是打造三法打造四法打造五法都要打造幾法了通過了沒通過了那你們現在有武器你們不用那詐騙過去二月有下降我們看打造儀表板差不多六十億三月突然又上升快將近百億"},{"start":4044.27,"end":4071.345,"text":"欸不要以為被詐騙不關你的事欸可能每一個個案都是一個破碎的家庭我之前就已經講過了結果到現在你們跟我們講是說兩個多月過去沒有裁罰半件然後那支沒有送過來是不敢跟Meta不敢跟Google這種大公司開刀是不是我們會說24小時下架不下架我們會裁罰目前他們Google Meta完全配合這一點所以這個沒有問題部長我沒有辦法接受你的話"},{"start":4072.225,"end":4096.737,"text":"是因為剛剛市長已經親口證實了連資料都沒有送來速發部你怎麼有辦法告訴我們是說他們配合就是我們這個我們速發部跟那個內政部都有在做打詐的工作我們這邊會通報那個把那個疑似詐騙的廣告通報給Meta然後內政部那邊也會通報給Meta那我們這部分我們速發部就是處理我們速發部利用網詐通報查詢網"},{"start":4098.038,"end":4116.697,"text":"查到的那些疑似詐騙或已經確認為詐騙我們通報給META那這一部分我們就是我們速發部就是處理這部分的工作謝謝好 那個部長我跟你講紅委員要的就是你們沒有說到要精準喔不要有說到說沒有說到那如果沒有說到"},{"start":4118.089,"end":4138.935,"text":"那個洪委員已經擠出這個問題我希望部長你要去把他督促最後一定要去跟洪委員來做報告因為這個嫌疏很大內政部說有你們說沒有那這個公文跑到哪邊去所以我要拜託黃部長你要把他當成因為洪委員執行了這個他重點在這裡"},{"start":4139.895,"end":4163.547,"text":"如果你們收到你們不開華那當然他就會針對你們那如果內政部沒有送來那當然內政部有問題所以這個你要把它理清楚回報給我們孟凱委員好不好整個政府過去這幾個月螺絲真的鬆了還是整個政府從上到下都在忙的打壓政敵對付政敵"},{"start":4166.98,"end":4191.77,"text":"所以當看到行政院長下鄉六日就講罷免然後結果我們最應該幫國人防詐 打詐 開罰沒有收到非常離譜部長 你是一個我過去還算尊重的專業人士該專業的時候請一定要專業謝謝"},{"start":4195.902,"end":4201.243,"text":"好 謝謝我們洪孟楷委員現在請林宜謹召委執行謝謝主席 有請黃部長 蘇發部黃部長蘇發部我們黃部長"},{"start":4219.162,"end":4238.459,"text":"黃部長好我想健全的新聞報導環境有助於民主社會的發展這是之前速發部召集大型跨境數位平台與新聞業對話會議中那數位平台跟新聞媒體業者都認為的具體共識"},{"start":4239.44,"end":4254.558,"text":"那我想健全的新聞報導媒體要怎麼塑造那本席認為最重要的就是要保障新聞的自由跟基層的媒體從業人員的權益那本席上一屆跟這一屆我們都有提出喔"},{"start":4254.838,"end":4272.751,"text":"就是所謂的數位新聞發展與民主任性法草案那這個草案我們期盼透過新聞有價的這個基本價值來提振台灣的這個媒體環境那本席之前有提過新聞媒體面對了三大困境第一個"},{"start":4273.892,"end":4299.7,"text":"新聞依賴這個網路平台導引流量而網路的流量又受到大型的跨國數位平台的載制第二個困境是新聞產製的方式受到跨國平台的制約所以它報導的內容 標題會受到演算法被牽著鼻子走導致有很多大家所詬病的內容農場啊 調標這種亂象"},{"start":4303.061,"end":4324.16,"text":"那第三演算法也被大型的跨國平台掌握所以這個演算法到底是如何的運作我們也無從得知可是它已經造成媒體產製內容的矛盾那我想世界各國大概也有都面臨到這樣的困境那台灣在這樣的困境底下受到威脅我想是更加的危急"},{"start":4325.652,"end":4344.971,"text":"前META全球公共政策總監他前陣子就有公開指控說META跟中國政府的密切聯繫有內容審查相關制度而台港的用戶的熱門內容就是受到審查的一部分那有內容審查"},{"start":4347.846,"end":4374.648,"text":"我們媒體就是最怕說沒有流量那如果說發了一個讓中國不開心的新聞或貼文那有可能就導致被消失或限制流量等等那發了新聞必須躲東躲西喔那不僅影響那個新聞自由那我想中國也更可能藉這個手段來控制台灣的輿論在這個灰色地帶來侵蝕台灣的民主社會"},{"start":4375.609,"end":4394.069,"text":"所以本席就想要問個直接的問題面對這種大型跨境的數位平台可能的內容審查那台灣要怎麼樣因應那上週蔡其昌委員質詢的時候他有速發布是說希望美國能強迫他們公開內容審核的機制"},{"start":4396.411,"end":4411.652,"text":"那我想請教抒發部你是否有辦法在我國來促成審核機制的公開另外就是說促成審核機制公開後那抒發部的規劃要如何具體著手處理這些問題 部長"},{"start":4413.794,"end":4429.363,"text":"報告委員那個確實是剛剛講Meta這個因為這個有這樣的一個新聞我們很關注那我們也知道說事實上這個是在2017年以前那後來2019年Facebook就放棄了中國大陸的市場"},{"start":4430.023,"end":4446.199,"text":"所以現在就是說如果中國對Meta Facebook有影響力我們還需要再關注那至於說現在這個因為這個美國公聽會現在在對這個議題在進行偵查所以我們當然持續跟Meta溝通我們也希望"},{"start":4446.98,"end":4471.804,"text":"在這裡面他也要對我們公開所以我們這邊在同時進行就是我們同時看美國在這個公聽會的一個結果同時看台灣的這些目前的審查的方式他要對我們公開然後我們也會接受申訴然後看看怎麼樣再跟Meta那他就至少這個演算法怎麼樣的貼文要被下架必須要透明公開這個是我們會跟Meta去要求"},{"start":4472.363,"end":4489.496,"text":"好 那我想目前速發部他針對所謂的媒體議價法的態度看起來是支持新聞有價您剛也一直在強調可是對立的專法似乎好像就不那麼明朗那從上屆本席提出到現在也差不多兩個年"},{"start":4490.757,"end":4506.295,"text":"那這不法的推行的過程我想最主要面臨到的困境您剛在那個口頭報告的時候也有稍微提及喔那如果說暫時推不成那我們到底有什麼樣的替代方案可以回應媒體界對這個法的期待"},{"start":4507.176,"end":4536.305,"text":"什麼時候再找這些大型的平台業者媒體學者再次來討論同時也想請教NCC跟文化部你們認為媒體業低薪高工時的這種窘境有沒有辦法來扭轉還是可以再做些什麼樣的努力來提升基層媒體從業人員的薪資跟勞動條件先請速發部回應然後再請NCC或勞動部"},{"start":4537.811,"end":4540.276,"text":"我們的那個策略我再請次長先補充說明"},{"start":4542.613,"end":4560.237,"text":"目前我們在想辦法提升台灣媒體的收入我們是跟現在最配合的公司之一是GoogleGoogle他做了兩件事情第一個他是捐了三年三億台幣的基金現在交由DTA台灣數位產業經濟協會由他們來讓這個基金然後想辦法來幫助我們"},{"start":4568.038,"end":4595.499,"text":"台灣的那個媒體業就是改善他們的狀況另外就是說Google他們也成立一個所謂的北極星計畫就是要輔導各家媒體改為收費制因為現在大部分台灣媒體都是不收費的那美國的那個Financial Times因為他們的收費機制做得很好所以Financial Times他現在會在全世界幫各國的媒體做這個方面的就是轉為收費機制的輔導工作"},{"start":4598.021,"end":4614.917,"text":"那所有這些費用會由那個Google來支付謝謝是那我再補充一下就是說其實除了這個以外還有技術面我們希望是說幫助媒體做數位轉型提供一些AI的工具這個能夠找到新的商業模式所以這個也是我們還在努力那其他問題是不是請"},{"start":4617.216,"end":4634.363,"text":"通常會這邊跟委員補充報告兩點第一點我們NCC所管的廣電媒體他們會有一些營運計畫我們要邀請他說營運計畫理由涉及到公司內部治理的一定要相關的法律事項相關法規比方說勞動的相關條件那些一定要符合法律事項"},{"start":4635.143,"end":4649.409,"text":"這是第一點第二點補充是由於媒體競爭激烈包括網路媒體一般傳統媒體我們希望他在流財引財方面要有吸引力說必須要請他們要行政次長他們這方面要特別要提升他們的一些待遇以上"},{"start":4650.319,"end":4677.6,"text":"好 那除了前述我們提到的這個媒體業勞動條件需要提升以外本席認為其實相關的部會我們都要去追蹤了解就是新聞媒體的創作跟轉型創新跟轉型我們看到數位經濟暨這個產業發展協會與Google有達成協議喔就是說要協助Google管理並執行這個台灣新聞數位共融基金的計畫那協助台灣新聞的媒體做創新跟轉型"},{"start":4679.682,"end":4701.315,"text":"只是說要內容具原創性又具公益性的新聞媒體都可以適用那不過我想有一個疑問的地方是說那這個是一個短期的計畫那如何轉換成長期的機制那來回應說新聞內容產製的付出以及它應該要怎麼樣跟大的這個平台來斡旋合理"},{"start":4703.037,"end":4728.456,"text":"來斡旋合理的方案那似乎這好像都還有待商榷那在這個同時我們應該要保障所謂的這個撰寫地方的新聞或促進那個媒體多元化以及這個服務特定社群的小型的媒體業者或大型的媒體公平的競爭的權利所以有關這個台灣新聞數位共同基金這個討論的運用以及小型媒體的保障那不曉得部長你怎麼看"},{"start":4729.341,"end":4757.54,"text":"因為我們素產署跟Google有不斷的溝通我請素產署補充回答跟委員報告我們跟委員一樣關心這個的長期性所以我們跟Google來督促一下是不是將來永續性的一個做法不過Google說因為他這個三年還有一年多他希望觀察一下這個的成效雖然目前已經補助40個案子了但是他還要持續觀察這個成效再來決定下一步當然他有新的剛剛市長報告過的北基新的計畫"},{"start":4758.941,"end":4774.508,"text":"對 這個也是他會有新的其他的措施一直出來至於這個共榮基金他還要觀察這三年的執行的狀況以上好 那最後30秒我想跟部長請教說有關於這個文本與資料探勘就是所謂的TDM的這個議題"},{"start":4775.809,"end":4789.135,"text":"速發布要如何設計我國規範的架構簡單來講就是說TDM這個技術是巨量的資料的蒐集為基礎那將這些資料進行擷取重置或編譯"},{"start":4792.053,"end":4811.886,"text":"變成可進行開採分析的資料庫來便於這個分析利用那我想在這個人工智慧的應用上是個普遍的應用可是TDM的過程也牽涉到著作權侵害的這個疑慮所以很多國家其實都嘗試著TDM的相關法規的調適那一方面也放寬TDM"},{"start":4812.887,"end":4838.207,"text":"技術應用的這個限制二方面我們也要著重著作權人的權益所以像歐盟的數位單一市場著作權指令的修改他就為了著作權法設計了例外規定那請教部長說那我們組長AI監管的書發布要怎麼樣跟經濟部制裁局來溝通來因應TDM技術的發展那目前不曉得我們"},{"start":4838.948,"end":4843.872,"text":"有關於這個TDM的這件事情因為我們在做這個AI訓練語要的時候呢涉及如果說這個著作權保護的這個議題的如果機器訓練的時候需要拿到這些資料來訓練的話那就涉及這個"},{"start":4866.929,"end":4884.645,"text":"助索權重置的問題但是為了解決這個問題以及現在尚未立法所以我們這個速發部就訂定了一個台灣主權AI訓練語料授權條款第一版那這個版本還要跟這個製裁局一起來協調內容之後我們就會釋出讓各界來運用好 時間關係 謝謝謝謝主席好 謝謝林宇錦召委現在請吳麗華委員執行"},{"start":4902.736,"end":4905.179,"text":"謝謝主席 有請蘇發布黃部長蘇發布黃部長"},{"start":4913.975,"end":4941.164,"text":"部長好 大家都很關心如何來提升媒體的收入那今天我們也看到交通跟教文聯席排了這個新聞媒體與數位平台溢價的專報那我這樣子說 如果我們去看目前國際所做的大概有幾種模式像著作臨接權 強制溢價"},{"start":4942.364,"end":4965.219,"text":"或者平台課稅那如果我國要立法部長您傾向哪一種模式報告委員那個我們沒有特定立場但是就是跟大院來商量不過這邊因為我們現在看到因為過去我剛有強調因為過去這兩年一方面是技術的演變一方面是這個所謂的國際形勢的演變變成每一個法都產生一些問題"},{"start":4966.36,"end":4981.836,"text":"那我們看到幾個像強制溢價權就是主要是澳洲跟加拿大那目前因為這個目前看起來是不成功的至少有些報導是這樣那歐盟這個也有遇到一些問題就是他們的著作權著作臨接權"},{"start":4982.617,"end":4997.563,"text":"那共榮基金就是這是一個在台灣目前有在進行的所以我覺得就是說但一個是我們在立法上我們還需要一起觀察就是說現在只想說在這個時間點可能需要再做進一步研究我們擔心的是說"},{"start":4998.243,"end":5025.483,"text":"太草率立法會造成不是幫助是造成傷害所以我覺得這個可以再稍微等一下但是呢我們同時繼續進行這方面的研究尤其是對於強制溢價主要是看澳洲後續主要還是一樣除了Google跟Meta這兩家公司在這邊他下一步會怎麼做目前這兩家公司Meta是完全不配合那Google是不是會再進行下一步在跟澳洲有些合作我們也還在觀察中所以我想"},{"start":5026.624,"end":5055.269,"text":"如果在這個時間點加上國際情勢非常不清楚的情況之下未來當然我們希望盡快把這個問題能夠確定然後我們當然要趕快立法來解決這個讓所謂的新聞油價能夠落實不過在這個時間點的確這三個法都有問題所以就說草率的立法不見得是對新聞媒體是有幫助"},{"start":5055.789,"end":5081.112,"text":"好 謝謝部長第一個您就是肯定新聞有價第二個呢 您也希望禁訴立法那第三個呢 目前要採用哪一種模式我想你目前也講不出來嘛但是我從數位發展部今天的專報我有看到您剛才在其他委員質詢過程中 您也有提到像以澳洲來講"},{"start":5082.97,"end":5095.929,"text":"Google或Meta他們呢原本是主動的跟幾十家的媒體達成協議也預計要每一年提供2億澳幣也就是大約台幣40億的資金可是"},{"start":5098.613,"end":5116.471,"text":"他Meta 你講到Meta比較強硬他在2024年3月就改變政策 宣布不再與新聞出版商續約未來呢 也不想要再展開這樣的商業合作模式那加拿大呢 他也是在前年2023通過線上新聞法"},{"start":5120.074,"end":5147.497,"text":"可是他也願意2024年起每年捐贈1億加幣大約台幣23億可是他也是相對的這個Meta為了規避強制溢價您剛剛一直提到的強制溢價選擇全面封鎖新聞的內容導致新聞媒體的網路流量反而明顯的下降對那些中小型的媒體衝擊最為嚴重所以呢英國經濟學人就說啦"},{"start":5148.177,"end":5155.932,"text":"就是我們原本想要透過立法輔助新聞產業結果反而造成傷害因你看到底是哪裡做錯了"},{"start":5158.223,"end":5178.657,"text":"主要還是在於說因為我們主要針對剛剛講就是Google跟Meta這兩個公司嘛那以Meta來講它其實很簡單它就是我的流量裡面屬於新聞的流量只有不到3%我當然就因為這樣關係所以他們就比較沒有那個意願來配合所以我想主要還是回到市場面也就是說自我這個東西它"},{"start":5180.558,"end":5208.899,"text":"他來做這個事情會增加他的營收或增加的流量他就會考慮所以還是回到市場的基本面就是這個東西到底意思就是其實回到市場來看沒有那麼理想市場的話就是說這兩個公司來配合還是要回到市場那當然就是說我們當然是希望我們能夠經過立法讓他們願意來配合那同時也幫助共榮的意思就是說同時幫助這個平台公司跟請教部長"},{"start":5210.04,"end":5227.105,"text":"那我們目前國內的平台像Google Meta他們對於我們要立這個法他們的立場是怎麼樣他們的立場基本上都有表示反對啦那細節是不是那個因為很多談判是我們次長去談的來次長"},{"start":5230.501,"end":5255.166,"text":"目前Google跟Meta都表達反對的立場我們都有詢問過他們他們也經過美國商會沒關係我就是要聽而已就知道他們的立場因為現在全世界有一種風險叫做川普風險那我不曉得說當川普上任之後他們也發表十項不公平數位貿易慣例"},{"start":5256.986,"end":5280.2,"text":"那指稱剛才提到的澳洲也好 加拿大也好那些在內的媒體一家立法已經損害到美國經濟的利益那我不曉得說當美國政府認為對他們的Google Meta結果別的國家造成他們的潛在的成本會增加那麼多那我請教一下"},{"start":5281.221,"end":5303.874,"text":"我們有沒有評估過如果立這樣的法會不會引發美國報復性關稅措施我個人的判斷是很有可能因為他已經對澳洲加拿大有提出這樣的一個要求所以我想任何一個新的要求新的這樣的立法出現美國政府一定會採取相同的態度所以你們評估可能是會的"},{"start":5304.975,"end":5319.814,"text":"好但是重點我們還是要提升媒體收入啊新聞有價那食物上我想很多問題像包括如何分潤是用流量分使用量還是要設定集聚還是有其他更好的方法"},{"start":5320.555,"end":5348.069,"text":"那當平台跟媒體談判的時候這種包裹的談判到底是要一季分一年分那對媒體到底有沒有利那到底是對大型媒體有利那對獨立媒體有沒有利還是大型媒體根本不屑因為他的分潤金佔營業的收入根本就不高那甚至是那些獨立媒體他的流量本來就不高那他的分潤呢他算起來也根本沒有什麼"},{"start":5349.229,"end":5374.553,"text":"那到底我這樣子講的意思說有沒有評估如果法案通過之後對於這種不同規模的媒體大型小型不同性質的媒體 紙本啊 電子啊 獨立啊 Daily新聞深度影音有沒有去做這些細微不同程度的影響的分析有沒有去針對這些不同類型的規模的這些媒體有沒有問過他們對這個法案的意願 有沒有"},{"start":5379.688,"end":5401.33,"text":"跟委員報告我們在過去這一年的期間我們不斷的跟媒體還有跟各方那他們的看法怎麼樣對那現在其實最大的問題就是流量那以這個META來講的話這是去年11月我到META去拜訪那個加拿大政府的時候他們秀給我看了一個截圖就是META因為在加拿大通過那個媒體議價法以後呢"},{"start":5401.71,"end":5429.731,"text":"他就在上面把所有新聞連結通通block掉了所以我在加拿大我嘗試連線CNN或者是連線那個加拿大當地的媒體上面都會顯示說在加拿大你不能看到這些任何的新聞媒體所以META的回應方式就是讓說根本就沒有流量所以我們要用流量來分潤的話這個已經是不可行的這是他一個商業行為他就選擇他退出他就不再提供任何的那個媒體好"},{"start":5432.173,"end":5446.665,"text":"因為主席站起來我其實只是說大家都很關心但是我們也很想知道到底各個媒體他們的想法是什麼甚至是到底有沒有對新聞媒體去做定義了"},{"start":5447.966,"end":5464.763,"text":"像有的像端傳媒他只是新加坡註冊在台灣的分公司那像報導者他是基金會成立的新聞機構那又或者像一些自媒體又或者是公管集團其實對於定義這件事誰能夠被納入誰能夠談判誰能夠分潤"},{"start":5468.246,"end":5494.453,"text":"像我們談的這些都是過去我們看到平台無償使用新聞那剛才部長您有提到現在的變化就是因為AI也是無償使用新聞那到底他甚至有一些媒體去檢視之後發現checkGPT的流量還最高高於平均那他大量使用媒體的資料來擴充他自己的資料庫那沒有獲得授權甚至付費"},{"start":5495.813,"end":5520.745,"text":"那納入法規要怎麼研議或者人工智慧法那邊要怎麼處理所以我想你們也沒有版本但是又一直說支持新聞有價想要提升媒體的收入到底有沒有辦過公聽會我們全部都不得而知那我想今天排這個專報就是希望我們要審慎的評估討論那希望把這件事情做好"},{"start":5522.206,"end":5541.897,"text":"謝謝委員建議 我們會持續會開公聽會嗎我們會持續跟媒體溝通會公聽會公聽會或是以訪談或是各樣的會議形式我們會進行各種會議形式不要公聽會公聽會也是 公聽會就是立法院公聽會嘛這個我們在看或者各地的分區座談都可以分區座談我們會繼續好 繼續努力謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":5547.9,"end":5572.392,"text":"好 謝謝吳麗華委員現在請葛如今召委執行好 謝謝召委 謝謝主席我們有請速發部黃燕南部長好 黃部長"},{"start":5578.873,"end":5580.681,"text":"部長好資料 資料 資料"},{"start":5582.418,"end":5609.899,"text":"沒有資料我們可能就沒有文化沒有主權也不會有AI那我們現在又面臨了這個美國中國他們也持續的在發展那我們現在談到這個媒體溢價法的時候其實我們也看到了速發部的報告裡面也很清楚寫了倘若我國未來實施類似媒體溢價法不排除美國採取關稅報復措施其實剛剛的質詢你也提到"},{"start":5610.74,"end":5636.17,"text":"那我們也可以看到川普當時拿出這個小板板上面有台灣這個64%其實底下有一行小字啦就說這個非關稅壁壘包含在內所以如果我們這個媒體溢價法放進去很顯然的非關稅壁壘對美國來說就是提高的我想請教一下部長關於這件事情還有這個媒體溢價法可能造成的風險有沒有跟我們的關稅談判的團隊來同步過"},{"start":5639.636,"end":5658.473,"text":"那個報告委員那個我們這我們現在是我的我們會有做這樣判斷是根據美國對澳洲跟這個跟那個加大那市長也有談判過所以我們是根據這樣判斷然後這個市長有去談判斷稅談判的團隊知不知道知道"},{"start":5659.694,"end":5681.406,"text":"是 報告過了有報告過了我想這個訊息很重要啦大家要同步一下那我想速發部這裡在這個部分也做了很多功課也非常感謝也希望我們的政府各部會也都非常清楚那另外我們也看到中國大陸現在發展AI它因為它的政治體制非常特殊所以呢它可以無所不用其極的取得各種資料"},{"start":5682.006,"end":5710.878,"text":"那台灣在發展AI的時候呢因為台灣的著作權法可以說是舉世嚴格啦這個甚至還有刑法的罰則所以導致呢我們台灣的大語言模型的團隊在訓練的時候資料不足那當然我們知道資料是有價的可是現在就卡在這裡嘛人家有很多資料啊他可以拼命的訓練啊越多資料的AI可能就越聰明那台灣如果沒有資料已經不夠了我們又用了這樣子的一個媒體溢價法"},{"start":5711.358,"end":5730.32,"text":"當然我們還是認為資料有價可是我們如果卡在這裡不能進也不能退會不會造成我們的AI沒有辦法往前進所以我一直在行政院的院會質詢當中我都不斷的請教各個部會那現在書發部也是這塊的專業你們讚不讚成由行政院"},{"start":5731.201,"end":5749.616,"text":"可能其中的部會甚至也許就是速發部來建立國家層級的AI訓練資料庫來提供AI訓練所需要的這些資料當然也提供誘因因為其實媒體提供的這些新聞內容說不定也可以放進來做這個資料庫的一部分"},{"start":5750.756,"end":5769.588,"text":"這個部分有沒有可能來支持一下報告委員這個方向跟我想這個是沒有錯啦因為在AI的發展一定需要資料那台灣我們所謂的主權AI我們必須要有自己的資料所以我們在蘇發部資料創新師對這個議題有嚴定的一些條例跟一些方法我是不是請那個市長來這邊做個說明"},{"start":5772.355,"end":5785.652,"text":"報告委員就是有關於AI語料庫的訓練我們的做法是這樣子在過去我來講其實政府已經有5萬多筆的開放資料只要是標準授權的資料都可以讓各界來做運用包括語料的訓練"},{"start":5786.613,"end":5796.747,"text":"那當然大家可能會覺得說我們現在訓練的資料必須要是語意連貫的自然語彙的方式所以大量這些文本的資料可能涉及著作權保護的議題我們國家的著作權目前沒有對AI訓練語調做一個額外條例的修改"},{"start":5804.697,"end":5828.578,"text":"但是在此之前我們也不會就是坐著等我們現在就是訂定了一個就是台灣主權AI訓練語料庫的授權條款那這授權條款我們會再跟那個制裁局一起研議之後如果這個妥適性可以的話我們就會對外來公佈什麼時候會有結果預計時間表我們在5月初的時候就會找制裁局先來學者大家先來研議那如果合理的話我們就可以把這樣子的一個授權條款釋出"},{"start":5829.699,"end":5852.276,"text":"那希望加速啦但因為這個資料庫也需要誘因那部長其實你也很了解區塊鏈的技術如何保存如何加解密如何做這個所謂的剛剛也有提到像分潤這種機制我覺得像資料點子資料經濟的做法我們希望要有一個國家級的訓練資料庫這個可不可以請部長來演繹一下我們再演繹再跟委員好"},{"start":5852.896,"end":5873.715,"text":"那當然我想速發部自己作為這個軟體還有數位產業的這個部會我想近期呢衛福部有委託工研院來進行一個平台的計畫那預算呢是高達上億啦這個去年大概是4億今年可能還會追加2點多億那但是呢發生了有這個挪用美國的這個開源軟體來做修改"},{"start":5875.817,"end":5890.158,"text":"但沒有清楚標示的這個狀況所以我們還是想要來請教一下速發部有沒有掌握部會在這個採購案上面對於開源條文的落實的情況這個速發部有沒有做一個全面的盤點跟理解"},{"start":5891.34,"end":5920.39,"text":"否則我們的政府部會 這個很高的預算左手發給右手 結果呢是用開源的軟體比例根本就不清楚 也不知道怎麼查核這塊有沒有在進行委員講得沒錯 開源軟體現在是一個使用開源軟體是一個趨勢啦那怎麼去做規範我是不是請那個蘇貞淑跟委員報告我們有一個政府軟體採購的共同供應契約我們會講Expo那有沒有推到各個部會對那個是我們幫各個部會去訂約的那他們有沒有一定要用"},{"start":5921.621,"end":5947.883,"text":"有沒有看一下他們用的情況他們很多都有用好這個部分要持續了解不然的話為什麼我們今天為什麼會出現這個狀況那開源授權的教育跟合規的這個協助我們也希望書發部可以來協助那我們個人是認為說政府應該要有一個開源辦公室啦那書發部有沒有機會來考慮作為一個開源制度化的一個示範部門來成立一個開源辦公室還是已經有了"},{"start":5948.343,"end":5974.43,"text":"我們請國際市他在這個開源方面有很多很多的過去的一些計畫跟努力請他做個市長做個說明是先跟委員報告一下感謝委員的支持那有關於開源由數位發展部來當零頭示範的部分跟委員報告的確我們目前在推動的數位評測品牆它整體就是走開源模式我們就希望透過這個方式來引導各部位在開源其實有非常多的效益的是"},{"start":5974.85,"end":5987.397,"text":"好 謝謝這個開源數位皮夾專案我也有安裝你們也一直有說有開放程式碼但是開放程式碼跟開源其他人可以使用你們這次應該兩個都有公開程式碼跟開源都有"},{"start":5991.119,"end":6014.783,"text":"那我想作為一個示範我覺得很重要那其實我也非常支持速發部在推動的這個公共城市的平台但是其他部會在做公共的城市的時候好像沒有串聯的很好因為像衛福部跟公研院委託的這個專案他們有用到開源的軟體可是卻在上面沒有辦法查得出來我希望速發部能不能有這樣的一個公共城市的平台跟其他的部會可以更積極的協調有相關運用到開源碼的專案就應該要在這裡可以查詢的到"},{"start":6020.184,"end":6045.036,"text":"這個機制能不能再深化一下是 各位報告這個開園的整個政策我們在去年其實在全台各地都有召開相關的說明會那我們也積極鼓勵各個部會能夠參與整個開園的推動那這個部分我們數位發展部也正在擬定相關看有沒有一些相關的行政的指引能夠協助各個部會推動 以上說明"},{"start":6045.436,"end":6062.648,"text":"所以我想希望這個速發部我們是不是一起來爭取一下從行政院的陳傑也好還是速發部也好我們來成立一個開源的辦公室這個是人工智慧學校基金會的秘書長也是很多人的共同朋友他所貼出來的就是這很可能不是一個個案現在政府內部很可能有一大堆的專案"},{"start":6063.328,"end":6090.166,"text":"左手發給右手右手挪用開源的軟體卻沒有清楚的標示跟這個左右手互相領錢左右手互相查核其實現在有一些工具可以來查核到底有沒有使用開源的程式其實速發部在這個部分可能有一些知識也可以來協助所以我們的具體訴求希望成立開源辦公室另外一個具體訴求我們也期望這個數位皮匣的專案可以大順利大成功那也希望能夠作為一個範本讓未來我們政府的這個專案"},{"start":6093.548,"end":6121.403,"text":"public money public code公众的钱我们纳税人出来的钱就不应该是被特定的单位挪用开源城市码改了两三行之后变成自己的这个所谓的公众出资公共的城市我想也应该是符合速发部在推动的方向尤其最后一句话也是重点欧盟也在推动之外也说可以提高治安任性因为城市码可以公开审查与改进我想这应该是符合我们台湾中华民国发展的方向"},{"start":6121.863,"end":6129.192,"text":"所以我想抒發部還有相關的同仁是不是近期我們可以一起來針對這個再做更多的討論好這沒問題我們來討論好謝謝謝謝好謝謝葛如今召委現在請煥雲委員執行"},{"start":6149.373,"end":6177.267,"text":"好 謝謝昭緯 有請部長好 黃部長委員好部長好 那我想關於就是這個媒體溢價法那首先就是要跟大家講的部分是就是其實從2023年就是上一屆我就持續倡議新聞有價那我想這個部分在你們的報告中你們也多次講"},{"start":6178.007,"end":6191.311,"text":"就是你們的支持喔那這邊是講到說2023年2月15日那當時我就邀請學者專家喔還有跟我們立法院的領主委員等我們就開了首次的公聽會那當天針對就是"},{"start":6194.092,"end":6218.88,"text":"到底這個分潤機制怎麼設計強制一價的設計我們這個民主國家的第四權有蠻多的討論那2023年5月11號當時我也召開記者會也正式提案那你有看到就是記者公會的朋友也有跟我一起開所以這其實是媒體界不管是所謂的老闆或者是記者朋友公會都很關心的事"},{"start":6219.48,"end":6242.835,"text":"那2023年5月22號當時我也來特別質詢要求速發部能夠進行評估那2023年11月我提出預算案也要求引領政策時程可是到現在我們都知道一直沒有布版那我想我先簡單介紹我的版本的特色我的版本是溢價跟基金的雙軌制"},{"start":6243.976,"end":6258.838,"text":"那溢價協商的部分怎麼去合理分潤因為目前最主要的問題其實就是廣告的分潤那基本上大型平台是自己做莊自己兼求援那演算法的機制"},{"start":6260.039,"end":6281.295,"text":"並沒有公開透明所以對媒體來講的話其實從2017年之後學者們等研究就看到數位廣告早已高過媒體本身資訊不揭露然後談判不對等所以如果媒體沒有辦法生存的話其實傷害的就是我們的知的權利"},{"start":6282.316,"end":6295.223,"text":"那這部分所以溢價協商的部分如何合理分潤它基本上就是解決媒體產業的生存的問題它彰顯的是新聞的Price價格那為什麼我的版本會多一個"},{"start":6296.383,"end":6313.948,"text":"基金鼓勵那主要是記者朋友跟相關公會的意見我們如何在這個過程中凸顯新聞的價值所以我的版本中有設置基金管理委員會其中學者專家社會公正人士公會及公會團體的代表"},{"start":6314.628,"end":6341.22,"text":"不得少於四分之三那我知道就是說後來我們立法院也有委員們辦公聽會的時候有提到就是說希望溢價制度先行那基金很好那可以鼓勵小眾多元媒體新聞工作者那擔心就是第一個會不會有重複課稅加重平台負擔的問題那第二個政府的手會不會深入媒體那當然這跟基金這個基金的組成審議有關"},{"start":6344.221,"end":6365.123,"text":"那另外如何團結媒體而大家擔心會被分配不公的問題那我想你們目前在處理Google就是說提供了錢的時候其實就是說也要面對相關的議題那我個人是覺得其實什麼樣的制度對我來講要解決現在媒體集體的困境然後在這個過程中"},{"start":6365.603,"end":6383.329,"text":"如果讓新聞工作者他也能夠發出聲音參與相關的決策然後保障少數沒有協商實力的多元的媒體是我希望速發部在這個數位時代能夠一起來思考的"},{"start":6383.689,"end":6406.508,"text":"所以對我來講我並不會堅持一定要哪個制度我覺得政府出面當市場失敗的時候能夠出來解決問題的就是政府嘛那當然我們也知道當我這個版本提出的時間現在又有很多變化了日新月異包括您剛講的關稅談判的問題然後我們也看到目前我們看到的不管是澳洲模式"},{"start":6407.689,"end":6417.538,"text":"加拿大模式或者我剛剛沒有提到駐作臨接權因為在當時我辦的公聽會中很多學者就覺得這個比較不適用於台灣那駐作臨接權雖然2023年27個會 歐盟27個會員國都完成國內法化"},{"start":6423.684,"end":6439.634,"text":"可是也看到Meta已經宣告2025年要終止他們的新聞推薦那我們也看到澳洲的情況Meta在2024年3月也不再跟媒體續約那現在我看到的最新的狀況是去年年底"},{"start":6440.194,"end":6467.686,"text":"澳洲政府又有了新的策略那我不知道他們主要關稅主要不就是澳洲的例子嗎那加拿大我們也看到就是他們遇到的情況比較偏向於就是說用基金制就是譬如說Google就決定拿出1億的加幣免5年的協商那當然就是說Meta他一樣是遇到Meta的封鎖新聞"},{"start":6468.946,"end":6496.925,"text":"所以我覺得這個困境是很高的那可是到底怎麼解決我覺得也不能夠沒有一個制度所以我想當然我的版本另外一個重點是針對現在的深層式的AI的無償使用我想部長很知道就是紐約時報率先控告OpenAI微軟在未經同意下用新聞報導訓練深層式AI那我的版本我知道我們的AI基本法也會處理這個問題那我不知道"},{"start":6498.866,"end":6518.701,"text":"哪一個會先說我的版本也納管生成是AI主要就是促使速發部解決這個問題喔那紐約時報的官司他的訴狀中最後寫到媒體的收入如果減少的話那深度採訪投入時間跟資源的記者也會跟著受害"},{"start":6519.441,"end":6537.413,"text":"那這其實都是民主的危機所以我覺得這是我們一個集體的困境我的重點第三個就是跟很多委員不一樣的是保障記者勞動條件跟聲音那如果新聞媒體經溢價後的部分分類應該要用於改善"},{"start":6537.893,"end":6553.803,"text":"媒體記者的勞動條件那新聞媒體工作者也可以向如果這個基金能夠成立的話申請補助那我要跟大家講就是說加拿大的那個基金的分配其實他有去算媒體記者投入的時數跟他的總工時"},{"start":6554.423,"end":6573.793,"text":"那這部分如果我們據說速發布有這個版本的話我想你們的研究人員跟能力應該要比我們各立委辦公室強那我最後要提的就是因為時間到了要講的其實一直不夠我覺得我的版本初衷為什麼這麼早2023年就提出我們看到新聞"},{"start":6574.893,"end":6597.329,"text":"就是說新聞的如果淪喪或者是不願意投入到有品質的新聞的話其實就是民主的危機因為假訊息這麼的多所以如何強化民主韌性這是關鍵字就需要一起去面對大型數位平台這麼的龐大是一個全球的這樣子一個企業體那我們說數位主權對不對"},{"start":6600.591,"end":6625.902,"text":"這個數位主權在這方面台灣當然你會講說他很難去協商那但是我們有日本韓國其他的國家的例子是不是速發部能夠更進一步促成呢就剛剛已經講了很多了我知道你們有開了三輪八字會議跟新聞產業數位平台的對平等對話那最近在你們的報告中又講到川普上台對等關稅的衝擊那所以"},{"start":6629.315,"end":6646.606,"text":"你們目前的計畫到底怎麼樣如何解決台灣媒體的集體困境是不是可以簡短回答我呢委員剛剛講的確實都是一些重點那我們當然就是說我們也很擔心新聞有價這件事情當然也是希望能夠越快定案越好"},{"start":6646.946,"end":6671.912,"text":"那只是說在這個時間點確實因為國際情勢跟技術都還有就是那個目前的像剛剛講尤其是那個澳洲跟加拿大目前的發展都是我們作為下一段階參考當然就是說這個東西希望能夠在也就是說這個關稅的問題都希望很快能夠解決然後呢看看這個加拿大跟澳洲怎麼去處理這個問題然後跟歐盟我們當然是希望越快越好"},{"start":6672.532,"end":6693.734,"text":"那我是主張一定要有速發布的版本我們立法院才能審議啦因為這個涉及到的議題非常的複雜那主席也知道嘛又涉及到關稅又涉及到媒體然後這中間的不同的部分每一個委員的版本可能都沒有辦法了解最新的狀況還有包括AI 剛剛講AI的侵權還有AI的部分這個問題比"},{"start":6696.136,"end":6720.375,"text":"委員所講兩年前又複雜很多我也要提一下 速發部跟委員之間的溝通真的是太少了有一段時間好像停滯了直到這個召委要排這個部分是不是能夠更積極啊因為台灣媒體的困境已經很久了那你們現在就是Google分三年給的3億元的40個補助計畫是不是也能夠在你們同步"},{"start":6721.656,"end":6749.216,"text":"提出你們的版本的過程中也納入包含記者公會的聲音小型媒體 獨立媒體 獨立媒體的聲音還有就是說能不能夠評估那台灣媒體有沒有可能有一個共同的分潤平台如果就是說川普這個之後我們覺得有些制度比較高難度的話那我覺得速發部就是要出來解決這個問題因為為什麼我們要有速發部就是文化部 NCC 等等沒有辦法單獨處理這個問題好嗎"},{"start":6751.077,"end":6759.204,"text":"因為數位平台這個應該是你們就是說首先能夠面對的好嗎好 謝謝委員那多久之內可以給我一個報告"},{"start":6763.683,"end":6787.463,"text":"一個月之內一個月之內那到底你們這個版本的時程各方面那我是主張要有你們的版本我們才能夠進入逐條審議負責就是說立法委員個別的智慧都有限那我們擔心當然不希望傷害到台灣的媒體跟我們的民主好嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝 歡迎委員喜智傑委員"},{"start":6789.322,"end":6813.784,"text":"執行完畢就休息10分鐘先行跟委員會做報告現在請林俊炫委員執行好我們謝謝主席本席邀請我們速發部黃部長黃部長"},{"start":6822.824,"end":6835.135,"text":"部長好部長今天大家都在關心今天的主題就是媒體的溢價法那我看部長就我們數碼部自己本身的報告裡面"},{"start":6836.448,"end":6854.765,"text":"當然你有特別提到國際上 尤其是美國美國對於澳洲跟加拿大的媒體溢價法他認為這是一個貿易障礙他認為這樣的一種瞌睡如果你瞌睡的話 那美國甚至要不排除用關稅報復"},{"start":6856.573,"end":6861.98,"text":"如果以目前來的狀態剛好台灣在跟美國做關稅談判的時候如果台灣通過這樣的一個媒體溢價法對於我們跟美國的關稅談判會造成什麼樣的影響"},{"start":6876.977,"end":6895.959,"text":"一樣就是因為現在在談判中這個是一個無可預測的因素所以我覺得那你認為台灣在現在這個時候適合來推媒體溢價法嗎我個人認為這個時候不是一個good timing不是一個好的時間不是一個好的時機嗎"},{"start":6897.918,"end":6925.174,"text":"那其實他在澳洲的經驗啊澳洲是2021年全世界第一個通過媒體溢價法那Google和臉書啊在2021年就停止支付了他們就不顧澳洲當地的法律然後他們就回去透過美國政府啊就跟澳洲政府來做談判施壓所以目前這個問題啊已經變成一個不是台灣現在面對的問題是全世界都面對的問題"},{"start":6926.789,"end":6946.494,"text":"那如果以目前我們跟美國在做關稅談判的時候部長認為這個時候通過這樣的一個法律恐怕會影響到我們跟美國的談判會造成一個負面影響嘛 是不是這樣對 是沒錯那其實這幾個平台巨頭在國際上他也有辦法"},{"start":6947.728,"end":6970.491,"text":"他會反擊這樣的一個媒體定價法比如說他在澳洲加拿大他有個模式啦他就封鎖當地的新聞內容對不對那你當地的媒體也拿不到錢第二個他透過美國政府把它做為數位的貿易壁壘來做談判嘛等等"},{"start":6972.128,"end":6995.295,"text":"好 那如果這種狀態下 其實如果我們要推這個在川普啦 跟這些平台巨頭的關係好不好應該是都有一些很好的合作關係有合作關係嗎 川普以前每天痛罵臉書啊川普當選以後 但現在是臉書在修補跟他的關係啦"},{"start":6997.194,"end":7021.839,"text":"你了解嗎所以川普他自己去創造一個自媒體的平台他認為臉書專門在修理他川普認為這些平台巨頭都是民主黨的 都是左派的其實這個在談判上不是不能講道理我也不知道有沒有在這個談判桌上但是美國國內同樣也會有這個問題美國國內的媒體"},{"start":7025.404,"end":7044.97,"text":"他們的新聞製造製造者那他們上的臉書他們有沒有拿到錢也沒有嗎因為美國也沒有強制溢價法所以這個絕對是平台跟全世界的新聞媒體業界大家的一個共同的議題這其實也可以結合做國際上一個結合因為這幾個平台獨大嘛"},{"start":7052.165,"end":7076.687,"text":"那有在做這個媒體也是做經營媒體的其實美國國內也有啊 對不對媒體的生存困境美國也一樣啊全世界都一樣啊你看那個數位廣告現在已經超過一般傳統的廣告了嘛數位廣告過去幾年啊我這個資料啊成長了三倍多啦成長了346%啊"},{"start":7079.139,"end":7100.818,"text":"你看那個非數位廣告啊 衰退一半我講的是十年來啦十年來數位廣告成長百分之三百四十六非數位廣告反而衰退快一半所以這是一個大家共同問題但我認為今天要討論的其實不只是這媒體定價法因為你現在有卡到跟美國關稅談判的問題"},{"start":7103.103,"end":7123.594,"text":"不過確實我們塑化部必須要有一定的角色來管理這些平台因為這些平台成為詐騙 假訊息的溫床詐騙廣告都在這些平台上面對不對所以你看澳洲政府"},{"start":7124.653,"end":7145.185,"text":"他對臉書就是說你臉書MetaMeta現在拒絕澳洲的那個定價法以後啊澳洲的提出的措施就是他要準備成立一個數位事務部腳步比台灣慢台灣現在就有數位發展部了"},{"start":7146.38,"end":7164.868,"text":"那我們應該要有一定的 這種一定角色可以管理這些平台我現在講的不是只有新聞定價而已啦例如你在那邊一些假錯訊息啦 有一些授勤啦 詐騙啦 等等這些平台啊 只認錢啊 只收廣告費啊 他有負起他的社會責任嗎"},{"start":7166.26,"end":7192.537,"text":"但你現在有法可以管它嗎你現在只能道德勸說這些平台如果是詐騙的話就是我們有打詐這個專法就是用這個來管制它 他們也都配合啦那現在詐騙廣告還是那麼多對 所以我們如果不管是民眾檢舉或是我們發現我們會要求它下架目前的法律規定是它在24小時之內要下架所以像今年那個新聞有沒有 今年4月"},{"start":7193.78,"end":7217.881,"text":"Meta的副總裁啊臉書的副總監啊總監啊他在美國舉手發誓作證啊他說Meta在中國他配合中國政府介入啊審查台港的發文審查幫中國政府審查甚至還針對這中國本身香港台灣用戶發的文字進行修改這臉書的前總監他在國會作證的"},{"start":7221.781,"end":7225.564,"text":"國會聽證是有法律責任的他不能說謊的那證實臉書是這樣的來配合一個獨裁政府"},{"start":7229.437,"end":7253.765,"text":"那臉書在台灣會不會幹同樣的事情我們不知道啊但是你有角色你有法律的那種定位給你的角色你可以去介入嗎你可以去管理嗎我們對這問題也蠻關注所以我們除了關注美國現在共聽會的結果我們在台灣也會跟臉書在這方面再做進一步的了解跟溝通所以我覺得"},{"start":7254.645,"end":7279.138,"text":"你確實應該要提出塑化部的院版的法律啦那不是只專注在今天講的這個新聞定價法因為這個是一個世界性的問題啦但是你塑化部澳洲現在才緊急要成立塑化部台灣已經有了但我們過去塑化部的功能一直受到大家很大的批評對不對那主要就是對於這些網路上的管理尤其是這些平台巨頭的管理嘛"},{"start":7280.216,"end":7304.321,"text":"那你現在沒有法律坦白講你只能借助其他單位的法律其實就像剛剛你講的防詐的法律或者是你跟他們老是邀來喝咖啡愛吵人家不吵別人對不對你只能給他用勸說的方式所以你要定出我們自己國家對於網路上政府該有的一個你們要負起你們的責任還有你們的權責好不好好 謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":7309.02,"end":7328.985,"text":"好 謝謝林進憲委員現在請蔡其昌副院長執行謝謝主席 請速發部黃部長好 速發部黃部長"},{"start":7336.341,"end":7362.469,"text":"部長早部長我想今天大家都很關心立法院很多委員也都提出了不同的版本面對特別是新聞產業的困境大家都很知道內容生產在於辛苦的媒體記者但在平台業者的使用上面卻沒有任何的這種回饋機制或者收費的機制"},{"start":7364.861,"end":7388.95,"text":"在討論這個問題之前本席也有很多的疑惑今天也藉這個機會來請教一下速發部這個最近在網路上也很紅也很多關心體育的體育迷關心新聞假訊息的傳播學者大家都在關注這個題目這個題目很簡單有一家體育的媒體叫Top5"},{"start":7392.247,"end":7419.909,"text":"它每一個標題因為流量至上現在的網路世界民眾的訊息五成來自網路新聞訊息五成來自網路那來自網路又加上流量是關鍵甚至流量可以轉變成收入所以大家就開始把標題誇張化甚至誇張到變成假的"},{"start":7420.726,"end":7447.171,"text":"譬如說我隨便舉個例子這個媒體的平台它的標題都很聳動我隨便舉個例子這個確定了中職直升大聯盟第二人徐若曦進軍費城仁謝謝你魏全龍徐若曦還在魏全龍投球沒有費城仁這件事情那唯一有的是什麼費城仁的球探去看徐若曦投球所以就確定了他就要去費城仁"},{"start":7448.706,"end":7474.571,"text":"這不是 如果是偶爾一次 那就是說他可能是失誤啦我隨便再講 幾乎啦 每隔幾天可能就會有這個神尊家法官駕目擊表態 美國WBC夢幻外野陣容確定然後卡載 卡載就是有資格 在美國大聯盟 翔偉蛇隊有資格參加台灣隊的選手 叫卡洛"},{"start":7475.506,"end":7504.58,"text":"他說卡羅確定卡載正式歸隊台灣天啊我作為WBC國家隊的領隊我正在規劃七月有沒有可能我親自去美國去邀請卡載可不可以拜託他來參加我們的台灣隊我就不用去 他就已經確定了我是這個就公然這樣這只有兩則嘛 那個下一頁你看這些全部都是啦"},{"start":7506.316,"end":7532.294,"text":"我還沒全部列完耶 還很多耶張玉成說為何中職人讓人看不起張玉成攤牌大檸檬伙食桃園你吃那個連叉都不吃張玉成根本沒講這個話啦他只有接受媒體訪問 媒體問他說請問你以前在大檸檬吃什麼他就講他在大檸檬吃什麼他沒有講說那個樂天桃園對你的那個叉都不吃啊"},{"start":7533.41,"end":7562.018,"text":"他完全沒有講這個這時候標題阿強前文部長我也不知道啦齁這個是你管的還是誰管的報告委員這個齁這個很多訊息我們我們我們大概沒有辦法去管因為很多訊息真假要專業判斷齁包括剛委員講這個這個我們不應該由數碼部來沒關係那這個到底是在中華民國的政府架構底下這個到底是誰管誰該為這個事情有一個態度出來"},{"start":7562.824,"end":7566.237,"text":"來來來"},{"start":7572.608,"end":7599.216,"text":"委員好那我這邊補充跟委員報告關於網路新聞的部分我們大概有在處理網路新聞自律這一塊的因為它目前是沒有作用法說是用自律的方式處理我們在去年底有發布這個網路新聞自律原則然後今年會做一個更往前去邁進一步就是要類似做他們一個聯盟或者一個組織的方式來處理那個聯盟會組織我們今年會有一個案子大概320萬會去做一個類似"},{"start":7601.897,"end":7617.405,"text":"類似以前那個公共監督的角色比方說我會去做一些觀察評價之類的那我們也這是今年度要做的事情那過往"},{"start":7618.465,"end":7646.495,"text":"到現在我們除了找這個網路新聞國內的網路新聞業者包括我們廣播業者的延伸自己做的還有一些自媒體我們都有邀請他們來做座談會也請相關政府部門來表達他們的對他們的期待跟需求也希望他們維持做好一個自律特別是要做事實查證剛剛委員所舉的很多東西其實是沒有事實查證的但是因為回到剛剛一開始講的"},{"start":7647.395,"end":7672.401,"text":"目前沒有作用法所以只能用自律的方式來處理但是我們會用公開的方式用他律他自律的部分加上他律就是一個第三方式來一起做協作以上好所以其實簡單講我聽你們兩個講完就是沒有任何人在管簡單講就是這樣子我聽完你們兩個解釋完就是NCC跟蘇發部對於這種這麼明顯誇張的"},{"start":7676.438,"end":7703.266,"text":"我其實知道啦 我其實完全知道你們要講什麼啦因為所謂的假新聞在台灣這種高度對立的社會特別是政治高度對立的社會大家都負責 互相指稱對方那個是假新聞所以讓我們很難去產生一個上帝這個上帝來判斷誰是真誰是假但是我們應該設計一個機制透過一個公開透明的機制"},{"start":7705.248,"end":7725.695,"text":"來做一點基本處理那像這種我只要求啦像這種他也不是什麼藍綠綠他就明顯當事人都在嘛就當事人都在我其實我也很簡單很多人來問我這個聯盟的會長說要怎麼處理因為我們聯盟都是受害者"},{"start":7728.044,"end":7753.614,"text":"對我們該怎麼處理就是我現在面對政府官員你們在這裡我問你們說當這些事實這些都是明確都是假的因為都有辦法把當事人找來我們在藍綠工坊的假新聞裡面因為雙方都指責對方這是不對的那但是這種明顯受害然後呢也可以查證那你覺得我們應該怎麼處理比較好"},{"start":7754.761,"end":7774.644,"text":"跟委員補充報告不管是有作用法的領域跟現在沒有作用法的這個傳播的網路新聞媒體這一塊其實都有第三方的協力具體而言就是第三方查核的比方說我現在的第三方我要怎麼處理讓不在在台灣的這個"},{"start":7776.272,"end":7792.921,"text":"體育的市場上不再出現這種明顯誇張為了賺流量造假的這個新聞怎麼處理跟委員報告那個委員講的這個方向也是我們速發不一直想要努力的方向但是自從川普在次當選總統以後事情又有一些變化"},{"start":7793.781,"end":7809.349,"text":"第一個就是美國本來那個META他是委託第三方的事實查核機構來做事實查核但是川普總統上任以後就是施壓那個META現在META已經停止跟美國的事實查核機構共同合作另外一件事情是在今年2025年2月26號"},{"start":7812.21,"end":7833.104,"text":"美國FCC發了一封公開信給美國所有的媒體巨頭裡面就講說如果這些包含那個Meta還有X等等他如果在其他的國家受到其他的國家的政府的施壓要求他們做一些言論審查而且是違反美國憲法第一條修正案的精神那美國憲法第一條的時候"},{"start":7834.465,"end":7860.698,"text":"他們就必須跟美國報告他們說這是這些公司他們的責任也是他們的義務他們的權利那美國憲法第一條修正案那是美國人的看法他們認為說政府不應該涉入這種事實的基本上就是不應該涉入那個媒體的管制所以這件事情對我們來講的確是一個我們很想做但是現在又有點擔心的事情以上報告 謝謝對對對 但是喔這樣的解釋其實我簡單講啊"},{"start":7863.424,"end":7892.445,"text":"言論自由該不該有它的約束就美國講這個意思就是說所以美國也沒有言論自由是無限的我鼓勵殺人如果這是體育啊OK沒有問題那個美國憲法第一條修正案依照他們那個大法官過去的判例就是鼓勵殺人的話這是不像所以它有限制嘛有限制那你覺得中華民國應不應該也有限制就是我現在告訴你大家都知道這是假的"},{"start":7894.414,"end":7912.701,"text":"然後中華民國的政府告訴我他們沒辦法處理我只是問這個啦我常常在這裡講詐騙我講了很多很多的案例告訴你我也知道你們在那裡但是你們不可以給我雙手一攤說這就是自律啦大家自律"},{"start":7913.021,"end":7929.649,"text":"不好意思再跟委員報告補充一下在以前羅政委時代他有主持一些會議其實對假訊息的定義是要有惡、假、害這三個要素構成然後呢有構成這個之後然後是做部會來聯訪成假、易假、破假"},{"start":7931.079,"end":7951.731,"text":"視角齁 這個四個面向來做 目前大致上是在平衡言論自由跟二甲害之間來做處理我瞭解啦 我懂你的意思 但我只是我身為一個國會議員在這裡問你說當我遇到這樣子我要怎麼處理 你們都一直跟我講原則你就跟我說我明天要去警察叫保安嗎"},{"start":7952.884,"end":7966.535,"text":"我到底要怎麼處理嘛我一國會議員理事堂問你這個你都還沒辦法回答我你說一般的人遇到這問題他要怎麼處理我現在很簡單我不想跟你討論那些大道理啦我都知道我就告訴你言論自由我們不想選一個上帝啦"},{"start":7969.144,"end":7980.761,"text":"但是問題是不能因為沒有上帝所以呢所以變成地獄嘛沒有這種事情嘛我現在就是在這裡問你說我回到這裡我也不知道要怎麼處理啊誰可以跟我說這款的假訊息不能這樣三五天就出現一次"},{"start":7986.168,"end":8013.066,"text":"對這個您如果把這個資料給我們我們可以跟META溝通我們可以有管道要求他們下架這沒問題對嘛你就是我要的就是你總是要讓台灣社會知道說就確定假訊息我們可以要求他們下架我們不想選上帝但我們不想台灣變地獄嘛這個我們可以處理就是把委員把資料給我們總是你要有一個方法不讓台灣變地獄嘛我們現在跟META有很好的溝通管道所以這個東西我們是有辦法去要求你們下架你們沒有版本我很了解啦這些法案你們沒有版本我很了解雖然我覺得"},{"start":8014.026,"end":8037.704,"text":"媒體的工作者很辛苦啦台灣的媒體產業再這樣搞下去媒體的環境是越來越艱困沒有人以後沒有人要生產內容嘛生產內容的人他都沒有任何得到任何回報我知道你們為什麼不敢沒有行政院的版本嘛因為很難啦澳洲的經驗加拿大的經驗都讓我們覺得沒那麼簡單啦"},{"start":8040.219,"end":8061.871,"text":"我都很清楚,但不能這麼簡單,所以我們就放任整個台灣媒體也不要插名,讓他們都自生自滅,這裡明顯,明顯我就跟你說這就是假的,不是偶爾出現就算了嘛,偶爾不小心犯錯,那怎麼可以把人家這樣子,這就接二連三一直出來,一直出來,一直出來,"},{"start":8062.791,"end":8091.847,"text":"在社會在體育圈也形成了一個很大的話題阿咱政府束手無策這話就沒辦法接受嘛部長你懂我的意思啦趕快處理啦我會後就把這資料給你嘛你們看該怎麼處理就趕快處理好不好好謝謝好謝謝蔡西昌副院長等一下喜智捷執行完畢我們要休息十分鐘現在請喜智捷召委執行"},{"start":8100.213,"end":8124.92,"text":"先謝謝林國成、趙偉感謝我們請部長黃部長部長好部長其實之前唐鳳當部長的時候那個時候有跟Google跟Meta他們對話過"},{"start":8127.469,"end":8131.284,"text":"所以當時其實我也曾經要求過很多次就是說有沒有機會"},{"start":8133.379,"end":8157.604,"text":"讓數化部創造這個平台那這個平台能夠發揮一些溝通的功能那的確就是Google也從2023年有三年出資三億建立台灣新聞數位共同基金那這個的確是數化部的作為有效果出來那我們眼看2023年到2025年"},{"start":8161.175,"end":8186.801,"text":"那明年2026有可能有類似的機制嗎現在有在談這個請那個書長這個我們也跟委員一樣關心說我們跟Google詢問過Google說還有一年多的時間他希望能夠知道他的成效之後再跟總部這邊才有辦法去爭取更多的資源所以他還是要看這兩這三年的執行結果OK那就接續剛才蔡警長委員提到的這個問題事實上"},{"start":8189.335,"end":8211.751,"text":"我們不能束手無策那剛剛部長也有提到就是說你們可以跟Meta去反應這些問題那我們來看就是Google Meta如果有類似這樣子一個共同基金那也許用這個基金就可以創造另外一個就是解決這些問題的人出來"},{"start":8215.154,"end":8235.579,"text":"所以我是這樣子建議啦 因為現在的網路新聞真的是真真假假假假真真啦很多有的是虛假的訊息 但是呢你會造成人民很大的困擾那現在是誰流量大 說話大聲沒的沒吃的 有的就刻意流量也亂講亂講 又不用負責任"},{"start":8239.808,"end":8265.542,"text":"所以就是說我們希望說就是以NCC跟我們的那個數學部的角度如何去杜絕類似這樣子一個虛假的言論那這個虛假言論如果一旦出現之後那數學部跟NCC有什麼作為就類似剛才部長提到可以跟META反映之外你覺得還有什麼方式"},{"start":8267.199,"end":8291.489,"text":"再就想說判斷真假當然這個是就是要由專業去判斷那判斷真假之後那個管道當然就是說我們跟Meta有一些平台管道可以直接跟他們溝通那當然剛剛主委有講到說那個可能有一些作用法一些法可以讓這個東西可以更有一個法制化這邊是不是請主委再說明一下"},{"start":8292.498,"end":8312.27,"text":"跟委員補充 如果是我們NCC所管的廣電業者我們要求他事實查證 而且會有相當的法律效果就是說如果他違反的話 這邊會有衛廣法或廣電法律相處理那至於說自媒體的網路那一塊 除了說我們現在用這個要求他們自立"},{"start":8313.21,"end":8334.782,"text":"時時刻刻提醒他們之外其實iWeb本身雖然它是以處理兒少為主但是如果一般的網路上的一些申訴通報他們他們一樣是跟這個Google或者Meta一樣有聯繫管道一樣可以協力來處理所以現在就是說這個我們NCC跟速發部都有一個單位可以受理"},{"start":8336.69,"end":8351.589,"text":"都沒問題嗎就是如果要下就確定這個新聞是假新聞或者是有危害的新聞我們是有管道去跟NCC是這次速發部跟NCC有個單位我們直接跟誰反應"},{"start":8352.728,"end":8375.106,"text":"我們這邊是可以這個協力啦就是說透過iWIN這個窗口它雖然主要受惹哨但是非惹哨的議題的部分網路上的東西透過他們來受惹哨一樣可以透過他們去跟相關的那大型平台業者來反映他們本身會有一個自律規範跟社群守則他們會依據他們的處理我舉個簡單的例子啦就像詐騙就打165吧"},{"start":8376.874,"end":8397.811,"text":"那我如果遇到這個東西是速發部負責還是NCC負責那我要找誰因為部長講可以反應但是速發部單位這麼大我們要找誰是不是有個固定的窗口提供給民眾那民眾要來使用遇到這些假訊息可以及時反應是不是就會比較清楚"},{"start":8398.351,"end":8427.604,"text":"我們有一些那個我們請素材署說明一下跟委員報告我們有加入這個iWIN的組織所以我們這邊也可以來承接這個安置然後我們請iWIN來幫忙所以是跟蘇華部的蘇華部我們這邊有跟iWIN有窗口我知道你們有說 民眾跟你們窗口要找誰我們這邊有那個進箱這二片的第一道窗口就是165這個一般民眾可以打"},{"start":8428.999,"end":8431.724,"text":"所以假訊息也算詐騙假訊息也打165嗎165會傳給你們嗎"},{"start":8437.449,"end":8460.316,"text":"我們這邊是沒有直接受理但是我們有些同仁會受理但是比較多的還是過往都是I-WIN來受理比較為主對啦所以你們研究一下看民眾如果找誰比較方便就直接你們把這個窗口訂出來吧這樣子民眾要處理是不是就比較簡單沒有假訊息就剛剛講說I-WIN是一個窗口不過我們再看看OK那媒體意見我想剛剛其昌"},{"start":8462.435,"end":8491.532,"text":"委員也提到歐洲跟加拿大這個其實是有困難沒有錯啦所以我們要定這個法 到底法則要到什麼程度 或者是要共融到什麼程度那以及就是說現在歐盟使用的這個著作權 臨階模式或者是說我們的強制溢價模式 那現在我們書畫部有沒有什麼想法 這大概會用哪個模式就是"},{"start":8492.823,"end":8519.824,"text":"剛剛就前面都有報告過就是說我們現在是沒有特定立場那持續還在研究跟關注現在國際發展所以我們也是希望儘快尤其在關稅這問題解決之後儘快瞭解這個世界各國採取的方式哪個方式有效我們就當然一定要儘快的處理所以現在只是說那個以目前來講我們沒有特定立場因為兩個模式都有一些缺失"},{"start":8520.504,"end":8545.18,"text":"那當然這個剛剛講共農基金是目前在台灣已經在進行的模式那我們會在這個裡面再繼續鼓勵讓共農基金的模式能夠繼續發展跟成長不過立法這個東西我們希望盡快但是在目前這個時間點需要再觀察OK 時間到了我們簡單結論啦就是說你要用強制溢價的立法這個優缺點在哪裡"},{"start":8546.113,"end":8561.703,"text":"那我們的駐州權連接模式這個歐盟採用的比較廣泛那速發部是不是有立場或想法那也希望說整理一下讓我知道一下那最後就是這個共榮基金"},{"start":8562.463,"end":8586.289,"text":"共同基金我是覺得目前我們是3億嘛 對不對3年3億 1年1億有機會再更多當然我們盡量去爭取那爭取到了以後這些基金事實上就是不管是著作權的他應該要有的收費也好或者是說民眾反映的這個假訊息處理我覺得這部分蘇發部跟NCC可以做一個規劃"},{"start":8587.729,"end":8612.586,"text":"這個有錢可以用我們就把它用發揮它的效率吧就杜絕減少這樣子一個假訊息的擴散跟蔓延那你們也可以盡快的跟Meta或者是相關的部門請他們盡快的去下架等等的這些速度要如何加快讓人民很快就能夠跟你們反應那很快就能夠處理我想這個是最實際有效的希望說這個部分你們也規劃一下好不好 好 謝謝"},{"start":8614.243,"end":8617.451,"text":"好 謝謝喜智傑召委現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":8643.582,"end":8652.647,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8670.981,"end":8691.34,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8712.477,"end":8713.397,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":8761.166,"end":8762.186,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":8780.814,"end":8794.366,"text":"好 站好 站好"},{"start":8803.833,"end":8827.926,"text":"好好好"},{"start":8832.757,"end":8850.088,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":8859.817,"end":8868.144,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳"},{"start":8891.937,"end":8892.2,"text":"你管理"},{"start":9222.54,"end":9240.271,"text":"好 各位請就座好 我們繼續開會現在請郭益勤委員執行好 謝謝主席 有請部長好 黃部長"},{"start":9249.653,"end":9267.779,"text":"我想今天本集要談的就是新聞媒體跟這個數位平台溢價的制度的一個問題啦但是其實我們更深入的去探討這樣子的一個問題這已經不只是新聞產業的一個生死問題更有可能會是關係到台灣民主是不是能夠正常的運作這樣子的一個根本"},{"start":9268.439,"end":9281.304,"text":"那先講一個就是大家都知道但是也很無奈的一個狀況就是每天其實我們在滑手機在看新聞的同時其實絕大波數的一個廣告的一個收入大概有七成到八成"},{"start":9281.803,"end":9307.184,"text":"它是被Google或者是Meta這種跨台跨國的一個平台給拿走了那麼光是2019年這些所謂的國際的跨國的平台其實都已經具有大概458億的一個市場的一個規模了那其實這個數字其實還蠻驚人的但是真正產出內容的部分或者是冒著風險正在追蹤所謂的真相的本土的新聞平台"},{"start":9308.405,"end":9334.475,"text":"其實他們也面臨到這些所謂的他們辛苦耕耘的結果其實是被這些平台給剝奪了那當然這個新聞媒體偏鄉的新聞可能會消失那地方的報導也可能會不見那其實都是我們最關心的台灣第四權正在一點一滴的被侵蝕殆盡那最主要的就是因為廣告的收益其實都流入到其他跨國的平台"},{"start":9334.955,"end":9343.059,"text":"所以為什麼說這個溢價就是在我們的平台溢價的制度要趕快去建立其實我們真的也是當務之急那根據這個統計從2011年到2021年的一個時間台灣新聞媒體的廣告收入已經下滑了45%以上"},{"start":9352.008,"end":9374.418,"text":"那另外累積流失的這個所謂的這個廣告的金額大概也將近六百億之普那我想這個Google或者是Meta他控制了台灣超過七成以上的一個數位廣告的市場也就是說新聞的資產其實都是由台灣本土的媒體自行來負擔但是這個流量跟收益卻"},{"start":9376.059,"end":9396.671,"text":"絕大多數給了他們那其實對於本土的新聞業者來講其實是非常辛苦的一個部分那我們台灣大概將近40%其實包含你我啦我們平常只是在看新聞的時候其實我們可能會透過臉書或者是我們會透過LINE等一些所謂的這樣子的一個數位平台在接收這些新聞的一個資訊"},{"start":9398.532,"end":9418.228,"text":"但是呢我們難免都會變成是一個我們台灣自己本土的新聞的產出變成淪為所謂的這個犧牲者啦所以從2021年我知道這個行政院其實也承諾推動要新聞議價的一個制度那也成立了新聞媒體跟數位平台議價制度的一個推動小組"},{"start":9419.529,"end":9439.911,"text":"要來積極做這件事情但是三年過去了到底我們這個目前為止我們看不到任何具體的一個立法的草案那目前也等不到對外公佈的一個時程跟整個所有的制度的一個架構那據本席了解這個新聞議價的推動小組從去年的3月13號之後就沒有再開過會議了是嗎"},{"start":9442.145,"end":9457.902,"text":"好那請問這個目前該小組到底實際的運作的狀況是如何然後另外呢還有一個新聞產業跟大型數位平台對話的一個機制最後一次的會議也是落在2023年的9月6號之後也就沒有下文了"},{"start":9458.442,"end":9485.688,"text":"那這個部分其實我們真的也非常非常的懷疑就是說我們一直從2021年講到現在其實將近不是三年過去其實是快四年的一個時間到底我們現在溢價的模式是什麼我們的方向又是如何我們要怎麼樣來保障地方的媒體跟非營利的新聞深入報導的生存的發展這其實非常非常的重要那剛剛其實有很多的委員他們也特別提到國外的一個例子那麼不管是說"},{"start":9487.746,"end":9511.334,"text":"歐盟他們是用所謂的臨階權立法或者是加拿大他們是用所謂的新聞的基金那另外呢像澳洲他們是強制溢價加上這個仲裁喔那我想要問的就是目前到底我們的會議中斷的原因是什麼那接著下來我們溢價的模式又是什麼有沒有一個比較接近的一個進程是讓我們可以"},{"start":9511.954,"end":9537.1,"text":"能夠看得見到底我們的方向在哪裡我們的共識在哪裡我們的跨部會的一個整合這個共識有沒有一個具體的一個方向那個謝謝委員的那個這些的觀察跟這項的建議的確啦這個新聞有價是大家的共識那只是說這個問題不是只有台灣的問題就是說這個目前像這個網路平台"},{"start":9539.02,"end":9556.849,"text":"就是等於說他們吸引走大量這樣的一個流量影響到當地的一些媒體的一些大家的一些所謂的商業的一些營收那這個東西當然是一定要處理那我上任之後其實有在跟很多學者很多工協會有討論過這個議題"},{"start":9558.61,"end":9577.803,"text":"那當然就是說這個議題在過去我上任之後因為過去這一兩年的確也發生很大變化因為不管是我們去觀察國際因為剛剛講這是國際性的問題但幾個重要的指標一個就是澳洲然後一個就是加拿大那當然是包括歐盟那原先我上任的時候那時候"},{"start":9579.304,"end":9599.057,"text":"因為開過這幾次會那時候認為說可能又因為AI的發展所以那時候可能認為是那個就是所謂的著作臨接權是一個可能可以推動方向不過從歐盟這個推動一年多以來目前對媒體的營收也感覺上沒有太大的注意所以這個到底是哪個"},{"start":9599.657,"end":9621.022,"text":"我們先不要管歐盟他們的這個所謂的什麼媒體營收有沒有多大的一個注意那是國外的一個方向但是問題是歐盟這樣子的一個做法其實他也同樣的保護了他們自己本身的一些新聞的內容是不要被免費轉載這些事情其實很重要我們是以先怎麼樣保護我們本土的新聞業者"},{"start":9622.322,"end":9637.279,"text":"新聞的媒體的業者來做這樣子的一個出發點然後再來討論比方說你講澳洲其實Google跟Meta他們也是乖乖的付錢大概將近有三百付錢給澳洲的三百家的媒體啊他在2024年就停止了這個付費所以"},{"start":9638.28,"end":9657.128,"text":"所以就是說這個model為什麼我們會忽然間就稍微有點這個還在觀察就是說澳洲的模式在目前我們各個那要觀察到什麼時候經濟學人的報導包括我們現在看到澳洲的目前的因為就是其實講起來就兩家公司一個叫google一個叫meta那meta是完全不配合不管是在哪個國家"},{"start":9658.368,"end":9686.408,"text":"那Google是有一開始在澳洲有配合不過目前也暫停了所以這個加大也暫停所以我就說因為這個這個制度怎麼讓這兩個公司把就能夠適當的補助或是協助當地的媒體在其他國家好像都還需要再觀察然後再加上最近複雜化是因為這關稅的問題所以我覺得在這個時間點我們沒辦法確定哪一個是對台灣最有利"},{"start":9686.408,"end":9707.05,"text":"但是因為一年拖過一年一天拖過一天其實如果一直一直處於這種未定一直覺得別人怎麼樣然後我們可能就會怎麼樣其實這個部分也也真的會延遲我們的這個所謂的溢價的一個進程啊所以我們現在就是在過去這一兩年當然就兩三年就是google那個model就是共榮基金這個model"},{"start":9707.871,"end":9733.584,"text":"看有沒有辦法讓Google跟甚至於Meta能夠來用這個Model對台灣媒體有些幫助是我們覺得可以再進行去溝通協調在立法之前那立法之後當然就是說我們確定哪個法是有效是我們當然會快速的去立法那但是說在這個立法之前也許Google的共同基金Model是一個Model另外一個可能的做法是"},{"start":9734.284,"end":9762.655,"text":"的確啦這個整個因為技術的進步我們各個產業都需要做數位轉型所以怎麼樣幫媒體做數位轉型也是我們數化部現在在考慮的因為今天我們的時間有限但是我們在面臨所謂的這個跨國平台的一個壓力我們怎麼樣先保護我們自己本身的這個新聞的業者跟我們自己的這個媒體的平台這個才是真正的出發點另外其他的國家的model我們當然是拿來做這些參考但不動其實我們就不知道怎麼樣去應對"},{"start":9764.016,"end":9776.759,"text":"我們有再積極再做好那我們希望盡快如果有新的精神麻煩再提供給我們辦公室好謝謝部長好謝謝郭益勤委員現在請徐富奎委員執行謝主席有請我們黃部長好黃部長"},{"start":9795.559,"end":9814.993,"text":"部長我過去也曾經在媒體服務過好幾年所以現場的媒體朋友的辛苦我都感同身受所以我想藉由今天這個勞動節我們特別標題寫了新聞不能做白宮媒體溢價制度不能等那所以部長我想剛剛談了很多那我們這個新聞的"},{"start":9819.177,"end":9826.569,"text":"議價制度不適單一的法規問題要牽扯到這個國際平台的反應跟國際政經的情勢那部長怎麼樣看待這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":9829.427,"end":9858.687,"text":"包括就是說剛剛在報告都談過就是說基本上我想新聞有價是大家共生而且是全世界的問題那所以我覺得就是說我們希望找到一個model對台灣有利而且是對台灣所有的媒體不管大或小那所以在這裡面情況我們希望能夠進速能夠產生在不管是在政府單位之間或者是跟民間民眾之間能產生一個共識然後用這個共識去推動我們的立法這個是我們就要積極進行那現在也在"},{"start":9859.527,"end":9887.237,"text":"進行中就是當然部長我想就是剛剛有提到我們目前國際上有三種做法第一個就是強制溢價的一個模式比如像澳洲的一個立法那第二個基金模式比如說科的一個公共基金來做一個回饋那第三個就是一個駐作臨階權的一個模式那我特別要強調因為基金模式涉及到一個科稅的問題那在國際上也處於一個高度敏感的一個狀態"},{"start":9888.357,"end":9917.092,"text":"那過去美國也因為對於歐洲國家進行一個數位稅的一個反對甚至祭出一個貿易制裁的一個報復後來也是在OECD平台上也達到一個折衝的一個方案那部長是不是認為在這樣的一個新聞議題的方式上面到底哪一個模式我們必須要從一個法律依據還有產業的運作甚至國際貿易的風險的面向應該怎麼來去評估才是對我們比較有利的一個方向謝謝委員對沒錯"},{"start":9918.012,"end":9936.531,"text":"這個就是我們目前正在評估的因為尤其在這個時間點因為加入一些政治的考量跟國際關稅的考量問題是變成是複雜化所以在這三個模式到底哪個模式對台灣最有效這個都還要再觀察"},{"start":9937.331,"end":9955.83,"text":"對阿部長但是觀察總是也要有一個階段性的處理啦不能一直只是在關稅問題這個settle down以後我們當然就是再觀察再看看再根據這個目前澳洲的這個澳洲是一個很好的一個平台就是說因為他用強制議價法那這個強制法在"},{"start":9958.666,"end":9983.001,"text":"在這個東西在目前看起來是不成功但是我們當然也許這個這個等到關稅這問題解決之後這個問題會不會解決我們也有待觀察不過目前的確這三個三個模式都有一些都有一些缺點這個就是對台灣哪一個最有效其實也是沒有共識所以因為沒有共識所以我們在目前沒有辦法提出個版本是能夠滿足"},{"start":9984.542,"end":10002.619,"text":"就是滿足大家就臺灣特別的需要所以這個我們希望能夠盡速有個定案但是還需要再跟大眾溝通好 部長謝謝辛苦了我們繼續努力那部長請回我們接著請熊熊傳播委員會我們的陳代理主委謝謝好 那個陳主委"},{"start":10009.583,"end":10038.069,"text":"主委我想新聞產業是我們民主社會不可或缺的一環那尤其這個數位平台舉起之後對我們這個新聞內容的再利用其實對我們傳統產業傳統的媒體也造成一個長期跟結構性的一個衝擊那過去我們通訊傳播委員會有在111年有辦一個我國廣電新聞媒體受數位平台影響的一個產業調查請教主委這個研究是不是有公開"},{"start":10043.391,"end":10057.768,"text":"我的研究案應該是有相對的公開然後之前我們在我們今天報告其實也有提到大概重點大概是幾個就是說其實現在有些媒體不管是廣電的本身延伸的網路媒體"},{"start":10060.07,"end":10083.909,"text":"自媒體他們有些事已經有跟兩大平台已經在合作那他們比較在抱怨的是第一個他跟兩大平台的合作的分認這個機制是不透明的不對等的那他可能今天拿了100萬可能這個月拿100萬下個月可能不知道什麼原因突然就變成50萬他們就抱怨說這個分認機制是不透明的"},{"start":10084.349,"end":10103.077,"text":"那這是在沒有這個溢價法之前的現狀是這樣子的那他們希望說未來能夠除了以流量當作分潤的依據之外能不能提出在溢價法裡頭能不能導入一個非以流量為依歸的方式來做分潤他們的訴求是這樣子"},{"start":10103.939,"end":10117.225,"text":"主委那如果既然這樣的一個你們針對這樣一個新聞溢價的部分有一個制度性的一個建議那是不是應該要掌握更完整的一個產業太陽是不是進行全面性的一個調查有沒有這個必要性"},{"start":10118.563,"end":10134.219,"text":"是的 那所以在那個原來稅務部三輪八場裡頭我們就之前行政院有分工協調我們負責產業調查之後的報告我們有在那種場合持續有跟政府也好跟兩大平台有持續在討論"},{"start":10135.732,"end":10157.288,"text":"所以我想我們會會也支持一個新聞有價應該合理分潤的一個原則我想這個原則下面應該也要怎麼樣讓我們的針對媒體業者反映的這些諸多的一個問題包含透明度包含這個分潤制度包含這個平台經營的一個風險壓力的部分應該做更謹慎的一個處理"},{"start":10160.109,"end":10187.774,"text":"那我想這個新聞我們的新聞媒體的先進們大家都很辛苦都在第一線報導我們的所有的這個新聞那他們也是生產公共知識的一個勞工但是過去長期處於一個低薪不穩定過勞的一個狀態那我想我們也應該要捍衛他們的一個權益那為了我想包含我們的數位部包含我們的同船會還有相關包含勞動部我想這幾個單位我們應該共同努力盡快把這樣的一個"},{"start":10188.634,"end":10202.303,"text":"新聞的一個不能做白宮的一個方式這個制度應該趕快廢掉讓我們的媒體一家制度趕快上路以大家共同來努力謝謝謝謝徐護回委員現在請李崑哲委員執行謝謝召委請一下黃部長請黃部長"},{"start":10221.119,"end":10236.586,"text":"部長我們還是來關切有關於獨立遊戲的發展獨立遊戲是國家軟實力的一個發展的重要的展現那請教一下蘇花部對於獨立遊戲協助發展的重點在哪裡來請說明一下"},{"start":10237.847,"end":10251.404,"text":"我們有當然就是說一個是對他們治安的協助另外就是說我們有些獎金那就是補助金那補助過去在這個軟體開發我們有給就是一些這個計畫計畫補助那"},{"start":10254.387,"end":10262.595,"text":"大概是用這方面去協助這個產業的發展當然在過去我們有上位的計畫是編了42億那三減了20億凍結了10億那單單這個獨立遊戲開發獎勵還有產品化加值計畫這個部分原先也要編列1425萬"},{"start":10274.105,"end":10297.427,"text":"那大概每年會補助八至十家的獨立遊戲業者他的開發遊戲的一個基本的動能那我們現在來討論一下我們對於獨立遊戲的發展我認為大概是有三個面向我們要給予協助第一個當然是在資金的開發第二是技術的發展"},{"start":10298.581,"end":10313.514,"text":"第三是相關的行銷的推廣我們來討論一下場域及技術的資源這個部分那相關的我們蘇發部對於技術的資源做的重點是如何來簡單說明一下這個我請蘇產署蘇長趕快"},{"start":10316.597,"end":10320.98,"text":"我們會有跟國內外大廠合作來提供軟硬體讓我們這個獨立遊戲用另外我們也建立了一個動捕的一個實驗室也是給這個"},{"start":10334.969,"end":10353.104,"text":"我們要提供創新的基地然後讓這個提供他們實體的這些場域以及社群交流的這些場域而且我認為應該是要跟國內外大廠合作讓原廠來提供這些原廠的軟硬體的技術的一些資源"},{"start":10355.342,"end":10382.09,"text":"另外在行銷的部分來行銷部門來那跟委員快速報告一下我們主要是國內外國內的話我們會在台北電軟展我們有獨立遊戲的專區在台北台中跟高雄的這個資訊月我們會展示獨立遊戲的成果國際拓展的部分呢國際拓展我們去年就帶了我們兩個獨立遊戲業者去參加日本的Bit Summit那有兩個我們獨立遊戲廠商真的是表現得很好他們都獲得了大獎"},{"start":10383.49,"end":10406.365,"text":"所以我們會持續這樣的一個路徑我們對於相關資金的這樣的一個到位還是非常重要的那我們看到三位計畫被刪減了20億 凍結了10億那刪減的部分是無法回頭啦但是凍結的部分應該要積極的解凍而且積極解凍之後我們要趕快的研議恢復獨立遊戲的這些獎補助來"},{"start":10410.528,"end":10438.043,"text":"調整我們相關補助的規模因為錢還是被刪減的非常多過去一年補助8至10個可能現在能補助幾個2至3個 來 署長因為結段還沒有開始然後這個還要做一個申請 審查的我們會進來努力看能不能救回幾個補助案這樣子那我們應該具體的恢復這些講補助的狀況有多少錢來做多少事"},{"start":10438.703,"end":10459.218,"text":"那至少要補助二至三個遊戲另外我們也要協助找裁員找裁員來投入資金給獨立遊戲的創作者要協助找裁員另外我們明年度要及早公布這些獨立遊戲的講座計畫的辦理程序這個都要提早"},{"start":10460.078,"end":10474.512,"text":"另外時間我要請教相關網路詐騙的問題網路詐騙通報查詢網的成效我們必須來做檢視那到4月中旬通報了大概14萬筆的疑似詐騙廣告那大概有74000筆確認下架"},{"start":10477.595,"end":10499.02,"text":"將近大概有50%左右是有效的處理每月看起來大概有一萬則疑似詐騙廣告被下架那其實看起來還是有大量通報沒有妥善的處理其實原因跟時程我們的社會大眾還不是很清楚我先請教一下沒有被下架的通報"},{"start":10500.14,"end":10516.209,"text":"大概是處於什麼狀態就是說他是通報是處於初步的確認還是我們這些核實的單位還在處理來簡單說明一下這個我再請那個署長說明跟委員報告主要可能有三種原因第一個他不是詐騙"},{"start":10518.166,"end":10545.596,"text":"這是第一個第二個當然是部會可能要一點時間這個在路途當中第三個可能是它是高風險的所以它又變成是後來又變成高風險這樣所以它有可能不是詐騙也有可能是在確認當中也有可能它是高風險的一個詐騙的廣告對但是不確定一定是詐騙的廣告那通常每一份通報你們處理的時間大概要多久來說明一下我們24小時內一定要處理"},{"start":10546.684,"end":10557.508,"text":"24小時之內一定要處理那沒有處理的原因就是剛才三樣的主要原因嘛可能他不是或者是他可能是而且是高風險的或是還要繼續的確認那"},{"start":10560.049,"end":10584.234,"text":"我們針對網路詐騙的這些查詢網目前通報的數量是非常龐大對不對那處理的效率看起來大概只能處理到一半的問題這是我們內部機制的問題還是這些量能的問題來說明一下官委都有處理只是說剛剛講因為有些是確定不是詐騙所以我們就所以剛剛講說但是你處理的時效還是太慢了"},{"start":10584.634,"end":10608.352,"text":"你大概只能處理一半左右的我們現在是說相關的造成延誤的還沒有處理的 必須要更明快要加強我們內部的機制來做確認以及處理 來 署長說明一下是 跟委員報告 剛剛委員講14萬下架7萬 那7萬是下架的但因為那7萬很多字 是不是照片所以我們就沒有公佈在那個數字上面"},{"start":10608.812,"end":10636.963,"text":"這個都確認了那我問你這個廣告實名制實施到現在像Google、LINE、TikTok這些網路平台政府會要求他們24小時下架這些詐騙廣告對不對然後配合的情形呢目前都有配合配合的效率怎麼樣啊有像你講的24小時嗎 沒有啊來 署長說明一下"},{"start":10640.14,"end":10656.532,"text":"他們是會遵守法律的規定24小時但是有些可能他不認為是詐騙的所以這個是他需要更多的時間這個部分但是大部分的詐騙的訊息他會在24小時內下架這個都還是有相當大的問題的但是時間的關係"},{"start":10658.573,"end":10682.386,"text":"部長必須要督促相關的單位我們針對這些詐騙的廣告處理的時效以及處理的成果必須要快速而明確將近有一半都還在處於確認的狀態那這個對受到詐騙的民眾情何以堪必須更加強他的效率我們會加強努力 謝謝"},{"start":10683.697,"end":10696.812,"text":"好 謝謝李崑澤委員現在請何欣淳委員執行謝謝昭偉 我們請黃部長好 請蘇貝普黃部長"},{"start":10704.52,"end":10722.777,"text":"部長在進入我今天要質詢之前剛剛李昆哲委員在講的有關這個平台詐騙的一個下架的問題那我記得我上個禮拜呢也就所謂的LINE的這個個人帳號被盜被盜用了之後呢他就被詐騙他身邊的親友就被"},{"start":10727.461,"end":10754.415,"text":"這個變造的這個LINE假冒的LINE的帳號詐騙那我記得那一次的質詢你說要找平台要拜訪LINE總公司也好或是台灣的公司也好要喝咖啡聊一聊那聊了嗎那個市長昨天聊不可以請市長說市長請說來那有跟LINE坐下來談過之後LINE的即時回應是什麼"},{"start":10755.841,"end":10770.892,"text":"跟委員報告事實上我們昨天有跟LINE台灣的公司就談過他們現在已經上了一個新的版本那這個新的版本如果你的帳號被盜走以後你馬上再登入你又可以馬上把你的帳號再搶回來"},{"start":10772.293,"end":10796.353,"text":"但是唯一的條件是說必須趕快更新到最新的Line版本那舊的版本沒有這個功能所以我們現在努力在跟社會大眾宣導那兩件事第一個如果是用更新後的Line的版本新的版本我及時的去以個人去變更的話那第一個有及時嗎我的意思是說是馬上就變更就馬上成功嗎"},{"start":10797.662,"end":10801.084,"text":"對就是說我如果更新到新的版本我們現在講的都是有沒有及時的問題為什麼我上個禮拜在質詢的時候就是說以LINE現況我們接收到很多的陳情我的LINE個人帳號是被盜用我要去呈報"},{"start":10813.47,"end":10821.833,"text":"跟LINE提出呈報 呈報之後他雖然受理只是一個客服 客服完之後呢就沒死沒死 可能要等個一個禮拜十天可能我的這個LINE的這個被冒名的這個帳號還在外面四處去詐騙"},{"start":10829.295,"end":10850.078,"text":"是沒錯那現在我要求的是你跟LINE公司喝完咖啡聊過了之後第一個你獲得的承諾是他們要變更版本那我們台灣國人如果有人LINE的帳號被冒用的話他現在可以用更新版即時的來更新他的帳號"},{"start":10850.819,"end":10863.327,"text":"是沒錯第二個即使跟現在說原來被冒用的那個LINE的帳號LINE從他自己本身那邊就馬上取消嗎"},{"start":10864.84,"end":10882.435,"text":"馬上鎖掉嗎LINE跟我們解釋的事情是這樣假設我今天是被我的LINE帳號被人家騙走了那詐騙集團在另外一台手機上去登入他把我搶走了但是我在原來這台手機上我再登入一次以後我就可以馬上把那個LINE的帳號再搶回來"},{"start":10883.137,"end":10911.785,"text":"同時喔 同步嗎確定技術上是這樣子喔他們是這樣跟我們講的他們是這樣跟你講的喔但是你是數位發展部你有你的專業啊你要告訴國人說第一個LINE講的對不對能不能做到那我們國人等於是速發部要告訴國人以後如果你的LINE帳號被冒用了被盜了那應該怎麼樣SOP緊急處理那以防他身邊周遭的人被詐騙啊"},{"start":10912.765,"end":10934.305,"text":"是那現在依照我們得到訊息第一個就是要呼籲那個所有的民眾盡快更新你的LINE版本更新到最新的版最新的版本就有這個功能那依照LINE的講法就是說現在這個新的版本有這個功能我們可以馬上把這個LINE帳號搶回來那這個事情我們會做驗證是不是如同他們所說的我已經驗證了"},{"start":10936.047,"end":10939.27,"text":"你已經驗證過了,部長已經驗證過了,所以部長驗證說LINE的這個說法而且這個做法是可行的,而且是可以及時阻止詐騙對,我自己有兩個手機驗證過你驗證過了齁?好,我們等著看齁,我不希望國人第一個,還繼續告訴我們他的LINE帳號被盜了,結果呢都被詐騙了"},{"start":10958.015,"end":10975.229,"text":"這個新的功能我有看一下確實是你可以把那個我希望速發部可以大力的宣傳告知國人這個SOP如何主詐好不好那第二個我為什麼會提到這個今天很多委員都在講假訊息講詐騙"},{"start":10977.492,"end":10987.784,"text":"根據去年 這個是去年你們的新聞這個台灣網路的報告也是我們自己的網路資訊中心所公布的 2024"},{"start":10992.218,"end":11016.827,"text":"78.82%的社群媒體使用者認為平台充斥的假新聞跟不實訊息那在即時通訊裡面有63.25%那在傳統的媒體裡面比例為59.81%那在這個民調裡面台灣國人接受訪問者有過半以上51.2%以上的受訪者是不信任政府有能力應對網路攻擊"},{"start":11018.488,"end":11044.258,"text":"這是一個數位治理的一個信任危機喔部長你有看過這一份報告嗎這份報告你沒看過對不對部長你該看看我才要進一步問你原來你不知道這一份報告這個呢是去年的報告去年的11月底公佈的一個報告那去年11月底離現在又已經快過半年了部長你認為"},{"start":11046.687,"end":11069.763,"text":"你認為國人有比較相信你了嗎有比較信任數位發展部了嗎我們繼續努力啦那當然我們有很多時候需要跟群眾多溝通那這一這半年來我們的確在各方面有在不管是經過就是說經過新聞經過一些我們的努力希望民眾看到讓我們在數位治理能夠讓民眾相信"},{"start":11070.423,"end":11084.956,"text":"第一個你自己還沒有看過這份報告所以你也不知道原來國人是怎麼的不信任你第二個我們要如何積極的作為取回國人的信任尤其在這份報告裡面我們將近65%的國人在這個民調出來之前的三個月內就接受過詐騙訊息"},{"start":11095.004,"end":11111.049,"text":"我認為這個數據當然是參考但是部長你必須去認真的面對這些數據為什麼是我們對數位發展部的一個數位治理的信任危機那我們數位發展部又如何來迎回國人"},{"start":11112.189,"end":11128.263,"text":"對你們的信任嘛所以剛剛委員講就是說其實這裡面很多的觀點是從詐騙那詐騙確實我們在尤其是今年之後確實看到尤其是在網路平台上的詐騙有大量減少大概減少了百分之八九十所以"},{"start":11128.763,"end":11146.056,"text":"慢慢民眾也感覺到就是說在臉書在一些平台上看到假冒名人廣告或假投資廣告有在減少但是當然我們還需要繼續努力不過我們希望投資廣告現在都進入那個LINE的這個封鎖性的封閉性的那種群組裡面了對但是這個因為一開始你要把"},{"start":11146.897,"end":11164.666,"text":"民眾引到一個封閉性的群組要從一個公開的平台那公開平台就是剛剛講以前都是臉書那這一塊是有建設不過一旦進入封鎖性的平台其實問題是我們也沒有辦法去偵測到所以我們現在是勸民眾一樣你要進入封鎖性平台教民眾怎麼試炸不要隨便進入這個平台"},{"start":11165.486,"end":11185.397,"text":"對 然後我們怎麼去主張所以夏業 我要提醒部長那你的信任危機要大作戰怎麼贏回國人對你們的信心跟信任所以我當然知道你們現在有很多的法令包括新的法令要立法那我只是在提醒從各自法裡面設了一個"},{"start":11187.718,"end":11212.147,"text":"資通法裡面有一個資安長我們現在要推定的這個促進資料創新利用發展條例裡面要設一個資料長這個三長之間所謂的數位三長我只是提醒部長要做數位治理要贏回國人的信任這三長之間的如何協調配合還有清楚的定位該做什麼任務這個你們要清楚的藍圖"},{"start":11213.307,"end":11241.605,"text":"這個清楚的藍圖 而且要跟國人說清楚啊部長給你短短的時間 你對這三者之間該如何對 這個都有他的需要啦那當然就是說這三長當然也有可能是我們機關的副所長或是類似這樣所以也有可能是有一個副所長會兼其中幾個職務不過不管怎麼樣我想這三個長之間的工作的協調我們會把它定義清楚"},{"start":11242.245,"end":11259.364,"text":"所以目前還沒有定義清楚現在你們還沒有跨部會甚至在行政院的層級都還沒有討論到資安長資安長有資安長有我知道現在包括上市櫃公司都要有資安長還有各個我們行政機關ABC級都各自有各自的一個定位跟要求"},{"start":11259.884,"end":11283.569,"text":"那個資委員會正在成立中那資料促進創新條例也正在草案正在審查中那因為在你們的法例裡面都有所謂的個資長跟資料長那現在又有資安長我只是要由國人的眼光來看我們數位發展部針對這個數位治理裡面的這三長我們該未來如何在框架下"},{"start":11284.749,"end":11305.961,"text":"互相的協調合作各有各的定位 各有各的應該做的職責那我們如何把建構出一個數位治理的一個鐵三角而這鐵三角可以讓數位發展部真的引回國人的信心啦 好不好好 以上好 謝謝委員好 謝謝何新淳委員現在請陳樹業委員執行"},{"start":11321.407,"end":11324.051,"text":"謝謝主席 請主席邀請黃部長好黃部長委員好"},{"start":11332.415,"end":11350.801,"text":"今天委員會是針對新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案進行詢問我們也知道在網路興盛之後對於整個國人的閱聽習慣都有很大的改變尤其是對於新聞的閱讀方面"},{"start":11353.862,"end":11357.584,"text":"因為人手一機還有這個方便性所以大部分的國人都是從這個網路上來獲得這個新聞的一個閱讀跟訊息所以也造成傳統的這個新聞媒體就是尤其是報紙媒體這個訂閱率也下滑得非常的嚴重那目前就是"},{"start":11376.435,"end":11394.221,"text":"也因為這個網路平台的一方獨大所以也造成就是說有一些媒體雖然轉往網路來發展可是他們也是受制於這個媒體所以對他們的一個發展也是有很大的一個限制所以目前應該整個新聞產業跟這個媒體之間也是呈現一個不平衡的狀態"},{"start":11402.699,"end":11427.69,"text":"所以相信很多新聞產業媒體應該也都是傾向希望能夠朝向新聞有價這樣子的一個方向那本席也看到最近我們蘇發部的次長在出席一個公開的論壇一個記者會的時候也有說新聞應有價那我想請問一下部長這樣子的一個想法是我們蘇發部的立場嗎"},{"start":11428.99,"end":11443.498,"text":"從一開始那個我就一直認為剛剛講沒錯因為那個這個新聞同業者他們剛剛講不管去採訪新聞或是去這個做這個新聞的編輯還有等等的工作其實是蠻辛苦所以應該是"},{"start":11445.379,"end":11467.346,"text":"工作上就要受到一定的酬勞所以不能夠因為平台業者的出現讓這些工作變成就是收入減少所以我們認為新聞有價是一定要去推動那這個是我們一直努力目標那只是在過程中我們也做了很多研究跟很多訪談那確實那可以看到國際的情勢確實在這個時間點這個問題變得比較複雜所以我們目前還在評估所以這個"},{"start":11475.208,"end":11484.741,"text":"一定要推動但是也是有它的急迫性但是我們希望找到一個最好的方案讓台灣的新聞媒體能夠受益而不是受害"},{"start":11485.436,"end":11511.802,"text":"是那就是這個也是一個你說有急迫性也是需要推動的那請問部長我們蘇華部這邊有參考其他國家的做法嗎有我們就參考大概就三種做法嘛一種就是剛剛講就是就是我們強迫議價法那是以澳洲為主然後著作臨接權是以歐盟為主澳洲跟這個強迫議價法包括加拿大那當然還有一些基金的一些就配合基金的機制"},{"start":11512.822,"end":11527.69,"text":"那所以這三個方法都有國家在實施也都有遇到一些問題那尤其是我們現在的這個委員所提的這個強迫議價化所以主要是看澳洲那澳洲目前在2024年"},{"start":11530.172,"end":11547.21,"text":"幾乎這兩個大媒體包括Google包括Meta都停止復會所以這個會讓我們擔心我們推動因為我們真的要針對也是這兩個大媒體公司我們擔心說就是這樣的一個立法如果反照歐洲立法是不是會有效果"},{"start":11548.071,"end":11574.271,"text":"然後所以我們這個還在考慮說是不是有一種什麼樣混合的方法或怎麼樣方法來讓媒體能夠在商業機制的一個就是說有個正常的商業的一個商業的這個機制下能夠去去所謂的這個談判能夠得到該有的回應的報酬這個就是我們還在跟各方面在溝通然後我們也在觀察國際的發展趨勢"},{"start":11575.825,"end":11599.671,"text":"是 因為我們看到目前已經有實施就是澳洲還有加拿大還有歐盟那可是他們實施之後卻遭受到這個平台就是Meta跟Google的一個抵制拒絕付費然後甚至是封鎖他們的新聞的露出如果是這樣子一個狀況反而好像是對於這個閱聽者就是一般民眾"},{"start":11600.936,"end":11619.647,"text":"就是造成一個傷害這樣子又不是我們願意看到的一個結果那如果是這樣子的話就是說澳洲跟加拿大就這樣子的一個發生這樣狀況讓我們借鏡了如果說我們來實施媒體溢價法的話我們有那個能力去跟平台談判嗎這個就是我們所擔心的就是說事實上"},{"start":11626.069,"end":11650.714,"text":"因為像Meta在台灣的流量裡面小於3%的流量是跟新聞相關的所以它很可能會決定一樣不提供任何新聞所以事實上對一般媒體的流量反而會減少這是我們擔心的所以這個我們必須要再評估然後是不是要再我們當然也會持續跟Meta溝通我們希望找出一個大家可以接受的方案"},{"start":11651.553,"end":11665.734,"text":"是 因為其實事實上就是說以目前整個網路的一個生態好像都是受制於平台因為像目前我們全世界使用大概都是依賴Meta還有這個Google"},{"start":11666.895,"end":11688.248,"text":"可是這兩個大的一個平台 他們都是利用這個演算法還有就是相關的這樣子的一個手段來審核我們不管是媒體或者是個人在使用上的一個內容的一個露出或者是就是這個點閱率 觸及率所以這樣子一個狀況 事實上是一個失衡的一個狀態"},{"start":11690.349,"end":11704.716,"text":"當然對於整個傳統媒體或者是網路媒體他們的一個營收也是受到很大的一個衝擊所以就是說未來我們當然要好好的去審慎評估怎樣去推動這個媒體溢價然後也要去思考說"},{"start":11705.817,"end":11727.936,"text":"這個媒體溢價的方式立法之後是不是可以真正的協助這個媒體來改善他們產業所面臨的一個困境那另外一方面我們當然也是希望就是說要怎樣去思考就是讓這個平台還有媒體還有這個閱聽者就是民眾三方面應該都是共創三盈的一個狀態"},{"start":11729.857,"end":11751.776,"text":"只要一方獨大 甚至因為我剛剛提到的這個網路平台的獨大他利用就是他們基於他們自己的這個收益的問題來控制這個內容跟觸及率這樣子對整個民主國家的一個言論自由也是一個很大的一個傷害所以這部分也都是我們必須要審慎去評估跟面對的"},{"start":11752.577,"end":11757.343,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝委員監督謝謝陳樹葉委員現在請邱若驊委員執行好 謝謝主席 主席請速發部黃部長好 黃部長"},{"start":11777.014,"end":11794.234,"text":"好 邱委員好部長好 部長北溪上週在質詢有關打炸APP的時候就已經有發現了所以今天北溪要再確認一次這個APP到現在是不是還是在公測的階段現在還是在公測的階段現在還是在公測的階段 那我想要請問什麼時候正式版才會推出請署長回答"},{"start":11799.539,"end":11811.694,"text":"我們有設定一個下載數以及通報數因為上次您有提到嘛去年上架後來又下架今年四月再次上架那為什麼到目前還是公測版的"},{"start":11814.566,"end":11837.271,"text":"謝謝委員那個基本上是坦白講是因為我們這個APP那個第一次公測的時候那個反應非常好就使用的人數太大太多結果造成我們那個各部會要做會議因為本席有印象上次提到在安卓平台的下載數他大概約為五千人那部長也有提到是在LOS平台上面約萬人下載嗎"},{"start":11839.032,"end":11860.648,"text":"所以因為人數太多的關係我們要確定我們的系統承載的了不是硬體的系統承載的了我們現在大部分是用自動化的方式來處理但是還有少部分需要各部會去做確認那我們是擔心說造成各部會太大短時間之間我們要確定說都能順利的譬如說他們在Meta上面發現有詐騙廣告然後會"},{"start":11865.111,"end":11877.026,"text":"藉由這個APP來回報那你們還要跟警管會再來確認沒有錯吧然後才能認定他到底是不是詐騙是那我想請問這樣子全國性的政策打造工具還停留在測試測試的階段這樣推得動嗎那個"},{"start":11881.038,"end":11909.91,"text":"我們到目前為止我們這個成效應該算是相當不錯的我們收到的通報量跟下架量可不可以慢慢說通報量目前是19萬那我們下架量是10萬那不好意思我想再確認那什麼時候正式版的會推出這個其實已經是就是公測版其實已經是正式的所以這公測版就是正式的只是我們保留一些如果還有bug的話我們還要再來修改這樣"},{"start":11910.683,"end":11920.881,"text":"OK 了解那本席上次也有提到就是希望可以提高民眾的使用率那也有說要不要加入獎勵機制那後面速發部有再回去討論嗎獎勵機制 討論一下"},{"start":11925.058,"end":11944.742,"text":"我們現在後續可能有在研議怎麼去把這個東西推廣下去例如說我們如果後續有一些到民眾去啊到像有一些熱領的一些社區看看怎麼去推廣去下載這些東西那本席再請NCC陳代主委陳代主委不好意思黃部長也先請留步 謝謝主委早"},{"start":11954.113,"end":11981.357,"text":"隨著科技發展那現在手機和無線網路嘛一定是民眾生活中不可缺的工具不管是線上購物然後還是看新聞投資理財點外送全部都是仰賴手機還有無線網路那本席了解速發部在111年8月之前電信業務是由NCC獨立負責的沒有錯吧是的沒錯是那我們看到速發部成立之後才把部分的電信從NCC轉移過去那現在是速發部在主管是正確嗎"},{"start":11982.67,"end":11987.238,"text":"處發部在管平利資源跟產業輔導獎勵產業輔導獎勵因為本席為了要釐清業務的歸索那當時電信業務它一分為二的目的是什麼"},{"start":11995.43,"end":12013.761,"text":"都是因為NCC本身是個監理機關在通訊傳播基本法第三條第一項跟第二項分別有規劃出它基本的釐清的原則都是監理部分通常會做獨立的監理至於頻率有限資源還有產業輔導本來頻率的"},{"start":12015.842,"end":12039.817,"text":"那一塊本來是在原來交通部有練師所以當時是那個電信管理法電信業的主管機關是NCC剛剛主委您有提到那電信評估的規劃分配還有核定是誰負責的現在因為在數位部成立之後行政院有公告說那一塊是數位部那電信門號的回收還有分配呢"},{"start":12041.334,"end":12063.579,"text":"也是數位部也是數發部那收取固定還有行動通訊的頻率然後電信號碼的使用費用是誰在收應該也是數位部也是數位部啊不是NCC在收嗎對它是號碼也是也是電信資源所以它電信資源整塊的分配管理都是在那邊那這樣的權責分配兩位認為合理嗎"},{"start":12069.197,"end":12086.093,"text":"應該是說在政府間的合作上有些是基於這個出發點是因為當初是獨立監理是要一個機關我們看到5G是先由速發部來核定頻率接著再由NCC就是通傳會來審議它的營運計畫還有網路建設的計畫那這樣是流程是這樣子沒有錯吧"},{"start":12091.636,"end":12115.626,"text":"大致是這樣沒錯大致是這樣那是不是這樣我也本身要確認便利的拍賣是數位部然後拍賣拍賣取得這中取得特許執照的過程裡的NCC的角色那行動寬頻裝用電信網路設置的使用管理辦法他主管機關是誰數位部現在又變成數位部那數位部他具體審核哪些項目我們是不是請產業署署長來說"},{"start":12118.305,"end":12147.623,"text":"就是它4.8到4.9Ghz那一塊的專用它是會促進產業發展 垂直應用的那一塊那4.8、4.9這一塊是由事務參組這邊來召開委員會來審查所以就是可能常委組有需要的話他就來申請那我們這邊召開委員會審查的時候通過就就核發那個評估使用也是將來的主張是因為建設計畫是在通常會來審嗎那審查的標準的方式是什麼你們兩邊怎麼來做協調的我們會有兩個部位的共同的一個審查的一個機制"},{"start":12150.28,"end":12174.02,"text":"現在母法是在NCC 可是執法一大堆都是丟在數位部嗎各位補充一下 母法本身也有分工 那個秦城有公告 數位部第幾條 第幾條 現在目前分工合理嗎就沒有問題嗎 民眾不會搞不清楚嗎業者會認為說他會比較累一點他會比較累一點 那你們有沒有想過要再去做調整"},{"start":12176.015,"end":12203.003,"text":"還是業者累沒關係不要累到你們就好民眾的福利能夠保持住比較重要民眾什麼福利啊我們都知道真的主委你這個說法我其實如果今天我們沒有這樣子一一的攤開來看我相信很多民眾也都不知道都是因為我們兩個部位合作的合作無間所以對民眾連他相對不知道但是他感覺上跟你們合作無間你確定嗎"},{"start":12205.004,"end":12214.124,"text":"總是會有討論啦總是會有討論那我覺得我是覺得你們還是要再回去再研議啦因為目前的這樣分工看起來這樣一刀兩切亂七八糟的"},{"start":12215.816,"end":12237.943,"text":"可以主委請再跟部長我們回去再做討論好嗎這個是行政院級的議題我們會再來討論所以行政院說了算嗎你們覺得這樣子這樣子也沒關係嗎因為主宰的層次是行政院的職權OK好謝謝主席好謝謝邱若驊委員現在請廖先祥委員執行"},{"start":12249.703,"end":12255.131,"text":"謝謝主席 邀請我們抒發部黃部長還有我們通傳會陳代理主委好 請黃部長 陳代理主委"},{"start":12264.794,"end":12286.635,"text":"兩位好 今天的主要的討論議題是新聞媒體跟數位平台的議價法案在一些其他國家接近有不同的做法就是可能一種做法是個別媒體業者的簽約一種做法是直接一筆類似代金還怎麼樣的金額給國家對不對"},{"start":12288.817,"end":12298.707,"text":"如果說我們國家未來要推的話兩位認為未來會朝哪一個方面去推哪一種會是比較適合的"},{"start":12301.003,"end":12322.33,"text":"報告委員這個現在就是說有幾個方就說目前在這個我們新聞這個怎麼樣去讓新聞有價落實那這個目前就是三種主要是三種方案那那個三個方案其實都有國家在實施然後都有遇到一些問題所以當然就是說在目前我們也在觀察尤其是在最近又"},{"start":12323.01,"end":12342.291,"text":"因為政治的關係又有關稅的問題所以等到這個比較清楚我們希望之後跟能夠跟我們的大院溝通也能夠去跟民眾溝通找到一個最合適台灣的方案那我們就會那希望盡快不過目前的確沒有哪一個方法說是那我想聽聽看我們NCC的看法"},{"start":12343.462,"end":12371.288,"text":"跟委員報告在我們110年有做產業調查其實現行在沒有這個立法之前已經有不少的業者已經跟平台有協商溢價有協商溢價他們都是兩兆之間會有契約關係啦但是都是不透明業者都是不透明所以你們認為未來如果立法後你們會傾向哪一種方案在NCC新聞媒體獨立的立場"},{"start":12374.015,"end":12400.228,"text":"因為NCT的管轄範圍是傳統的廣電有拿執照的那一塊這塊目前是暫時不在我們的作用法在我們的權值範圍但是我們的產業調查的結果發現他們認為還是說大概有簽約大概是希望平台能夠跟他的溢價能夠透明他希望制度能夠透明那至於說是剛剛部長所提到的三個方法其實各界都還在討論當中沒有一個定論"},{"start":12400.708,"end":12423.894,"text":"我今天這個新聞有價這件事情當然是一個討論的一個層次那另外一個層次我想討論的是這個新聞一個新聞業或者是媒體業記者存在一個最大的一個價值在於他能夠自由的來批判時事無論是政府還是社會各面向的一個問題那如果說我們現在的一個數位平台將來"},{"start":12426.475,"end":12453.422,"text":"如果說他是用個別簽約的跟個別媒體來簽約的話那就變成了說這個平台他可能過去是如果說他沒有做任何的一個限制的話是任何一個媒體的一個多元化的一個報導都可以在這個平台上面去露出如果他沒有特別的限制的話那如果說他有特別去限制的話他可能就會被一些輿論走去批判做一些可能他是做一些思想審查等等的"},{"start":12454.002,"end":12475.819,"text":"那如果說我們將來的一個法令上路了之後我們都知道其實沒有任何一家媒體或者是任何一個人或任何一家公司它沒有意識形態一定都有啦 這一定都有的包括Google有它自己的意識形態臉書有它自己的意識形態那如果說未來的議價的法案上路了之後它可不可以反而過去它可能"},{"start":12476.579,"end":12495.055,"text":"不敢被人家扣他怕被扣上一個審查言論自由連帽子他不敢去做一些新聞媒體披露的一些審查他必須要讓所有的新聞媒體都公平的露出至少搜尋的到當然演算法他可能有內部的一個機制那如果說未來有個議價法上路了之後"},{"start":12496.072,"end":12506.131,"text":"那這家這個數位平台它未來會不會有它自己的一個思想審查在未來溢價的一個過程當中這是我非常擔心的你說歐美的會不會有歐美的"},{"start":12507.493,"end":12535.259,"text":"可能會有應該說每一個每一家廠商都會有那甚至我們現在討論到另外一個更會對這個思想進行審查的可能這個對岸大陸的媒體你說他有很多一個平台那他未來在這個相關的新聞媒體上架的時候他會不會利用議價的一個手段來做一個言論審查的一個機制我擔心的是這一個那部長或者是說主委就這個面向你們可不可以提出你們的一些"},{"start":12537.26,"end":12558.552,"text":"這的確是一個就是說這的確是可以會令人擔心的就是說他們議價過程中議價這個怎麼決定因為其實我們看到像澳洲其實就是幾家大媒體他有去議價其他他都沒有去議價所以言論會集中在這幾家大媒體的立場那其實這是不好的"},{"start":12558.772,"end":12586.87,"text":"甚至他在議價的過程中他給人家不合就是給軟釘子嘛給一個不合理的價格不符合他這個思想價值的一個符合思想價值的他可以用很比較好的一個價格去簽約不符合他思想價值的媒體他用他認為不合理的價格導致簽約簽不成那這個就會導致未來的一個新聞媒體他沒有辦法在這個平台是多元化的一個給大眾那就可能變成思想牽制的一個情形"},{"start":12587.799,"end":12606.89,"text":"那NCC你們這邊的立場公務員報告這個是在目前現在情況是沒有未來如果要立法的話有類似我們這個有限電視頻道上架有限電視平台的有一個條款類似說你要公平公平對待啦那也許未來的立法裡頭也許會有"},{"start":12608.21,"end":12621.639,"text":"對應的類似的條款來要求說你不可以因為要做言論價值的審查來連線連到說你要跟我議價的一個權利啊或者範圍或者分身的比例"},{"start":12622.754,"end":12650.933,"text":"所以我認為就是我們當然是希望新聞有價它是一個價值但是應該有一個更高的價值在於新聞它的一個言論的自由批判的一個自由那先要維持新聞的它的一個批判跟這個評論的一個自由那我們再來來保障他們的一個新聞有價的一個價值我也希望說後續再做一些相關討論的時候這一個更上層的東西我們要避免它被一些思想箝制的它變成一個思想箝制的一個工具好不好 以上 謝謝"},{"start":12654.035,"end":12681.432,"text":"好 謝謝廖先祥委員現在請魯明哲委員執行好 謝謝主席有請我們市委部黃部長好 魯委員好"},{"start":12682.421,"end":12707.596,"text":"好 部長今天主要這個要開始我們有一些法案嘛針對你們所謂媒體溢價相關的一些立法但我們今天早上就看到你們昨天有表達意見嘛就擔心這個可能會造成美國關稅的一個報復嘛我看到報紙這樣寫是你的意思嗎是我們研究的出來的結果對研究出來的結果 好那現在 現在有個問題喔"},{"start":12710.231,"end":12737.263,"text":"這個當然就是川普總統啊讓美國再次偉大各個總統要讓他國家再偉大我是覺得一點錯都沒有好他提出了這個關稅關稅的大戰已經開始了那所有人都知道那是貨品貿易具體的透過空運海運運過去的互相世界的一個貿易具象的貨品貿易那請問一下Google Meta這是貨品貿易還是服務貿易"},{"start":12738.483,"end":12767.338,"text":"報告委員事實上有個實際的例子就是說美國貿易代表署跟護國家安全顧問他提出一個十項不公平的數位貿易慣例數位貿易也是列為他們一個所謂關稅的一個考量所以並沒有不是只有實體的貨品所以這個部長能不能有一點我們中華民國我們台灣的立場好不好因為我們聽到MEGA美國偉大我們已經背得好熟啦"},{"start":12767.958,"end":12790.826,"text":"那台灣呢我跟你講現在簡單來說川普總統的邏輯很清楚嘛因為主要的一個關稅貨品貿易因為他都是逆差你們這麼多國家賣這麼多東西給我我輸出的巨項一個貨品這麼少所以對美國不公平所以他要去做一個用關稅才來調整是他一個基本的邏輯"},{"start":12792.17,"end":12810.457,"text":"那服務貿易抱歉倒過來對台灣來講這種世界貿易的服務貿易的一個形態台灣對美國我們是逆差啊逆差啊川普這種邏輯就是說抱歉對台灣不公平服務貿易啊"},{"start":12811.377,"end":12833.04,"text":"沒有 我是希望你們在討論這個事情要有一些立場而且你們在談判的時候總是有一些對我有利的吧還是一去就是趴在地下嗎這本來就Full Money你們賺這麼多錢從不管是Google Meta Netflix你只要講出來的賺錢不用打關稅就來來去去所以這個部分我覺得是應該變成政府"},{"start":12833.641,"end":12850.698,"text":"一個討價還價的一個籌碼所以我也希望說這個數位部在這方面能夠在談判的時候就你們的立場所有這種服務貿易也能夠來幫忙這個談判能夠促成那我再請教一下你今天有特別提出來說"},{"start":12853.538,"end":12876.928,"text":"這個溢價相關的一些法案 你有點擔心那當然因為這個關稅大戰是大概上個月才開始那請問一下你去年在幹嘛那個 報委等一下我講完 110年啦 你還沒上任啦你這個整個行政院當時就成立國內產業大型數位平台共融發展協調小組"},{"start":12878.379,"end":12903.391,"text":"然後到111年 112年總共開了三輪八次會議八次會議平台業者產業不斷去討論那到底遇到什麼問題我不知道可是到了112年的9月最後一場會議開完之後到113年5月20號跟著新政府上任之後你一次會也沒有開嘛"},{"start":12904.011,"end":12919.345,"text":"我跟你講 去年還沒發生貿易戰嘛你今天寫給我的 我理解 喔 現在發生這個事情那請問一下 你去年在幹什麼還是你壓根子 講一下數位部 這個黃部長你的心態是說 我就是不想弄啊是不是 到底怎麼回事 你去年在幹嘛"},{"start":12920.126,"end":12944.621,"text":"報告委員我一上任就有很多就是對這個問題就很多的這個不管是工協會媒體還有媒體還有包括這個所謂的學者跟我討論這個議題我們一直很關注那我們那時候也在跟這個平台商也有一家不斷的協商那再說因為這一年多的變化蠻大的所以會讓我們原來我們原來我剛上任的時候他們有跟我講說經過這麼多次討論結果"},{"start":12947.142,"end":12959.054,"text":"那個覺得是 所謂住座臨界圈是一個可走的方向但是呢 經過這一年 也發現住座臨界圈也是有它很多的缺點所以變成就是說 現在這個這個問題 那當然這裡面很多討論剛剛講這個 跟我們有很多這種 關於這個這個數位 這個媒體的討論我最主要是說"},{"start":12970.063,"end":12994.171,"text":"112年的9月6號是這個八次會議的最後一次你上任之後不管是前朝或這一朝都沒有這開因為你是主責單位你要叫NCC相關單位文化部大家一起來討論你既然沒有做讓我們非常懷疑在關稅大戰之前你到底認為是這是一個麻煩事你也講出來就直接說可是我們看到"},{"start":12995.071,"end":13016.207,"text":"幾個單位的報告都說這個媒體有價你們都全力支持希望能夠促成那第二個我想請教一下你特別有談了現在世界各國有在進行的譬如說2021最早澳洲完成了那加拿大2023那歐盟他是用另外的著作權的一個臨接權的這種概念去做的"},{"start":13017.087,"end":13037.375,"text":"有點不一樣但是希望讓新聞是有價的這種的努力跟社群平台去協調那當然我就不一講了那從澳洲也好Google他有達成那個協議然後提供了資金然後加拿大Google也是提供一年"},{"start":13039.5,"end":13061.751,"text":"1億加幣1年23億台幣持續5年115億那再來歐盟呢歐盟就是太多國家了談不清楚那Meta的立場現在也清楚啦他就不玩啦談好了也不玩了就是反臉了就這樣那這種情況我真的是有一個建議"},{"start":13063.53,"end":13084.091,"text":"我知道你們有很多的一個顧慮啊可是我們也希望是不是讓台灣也有點在這上面有個立場我們是服務貿易被人家賺錢的國家在那邊不吭不哈什麼都不敢說也沒有道理吧太過分了不要說嘛談不成的不要說那我一樣以加拿大四千萬人口是我們人口的1.7倍"},{"start":13085.612,"end":13102.28,"text":"他的新聞媒體對1.7倍他五年的計畫 Google五年的計畫115億台幣好不好那現在Google也謝謝他是台灣第一個在談的過程2023年他講三年一年1億台幣"},{"start":13104.295,"end":13125.705,"text":"然後就這樣嗎我是覺得因為你現在還沒開過會我覺得不能這樣我覺得這兩個加起來人口差1.7倍但是他提供的讓我們媒體能夠有這樣的一個資金不管是版權或者AI提升各方面他提供的資金是3億比115億我們將近40倍"},{"start":13128.866,"end":13136.818,"text":"我倒是覺得這個法案有沒有立什麼時候立起來但是這個部分我是建議是不是部長能夠接續能夠為了我們這個國家的這個整體的新聞發展利益來繼續協調可以嗎"},{"start":13144.508,"end":13159.116,"text":"不過剛剛委員講說我們都沒有開過會這是不對的因為事實上這個東西我們內部開了好幾次會議然後我們也跟平台業者因為重點是平台業者要不要配合所以我們也甚至飛到美國跟像Meta有開過會所以這個問題的因為是這個問題本身我們很關注"},{"start":13162.918,"end":13178.804,"text":"我知道你們開很多會啦什麼詐騙啊什麼都有我是講你那個整個大的行政院下面的機構我們調的文件這個機構就沒有跟你自己開會那兩回事啦那今天當然是真的是鼓勵你啦我們要去談判最後啊"},{"start":13180.953,"end":13202.767,"text":"我們真的也發覺 尤其在歐盟很多國家在談的過程中 蠻難界定的 包括什麼叫新聞新聞的界定 那版權到底是誰 譬如說是他家的攝影鏡頭 然後媒體拿到了 那錢到底誰分論嘛是那一家的那個個人 對不對 還是我那個法人 還是 那到底要分給誰呢"},{"start":13204.148,"end":13221.443,"text":"對不對還是錢要跟誰要所以我在想喔這個問題我是覺得你們勢必要去認真去研議啦委員已經提了這麼多版本而且三個黨都有提出版本就等於說各黨派的一個共識都希望能夠去推讓新聞有價那現在顯來顯來這左邊是四種"},{"start":13226.887,"end":13241.427,"text":"現在常看到的媒體的來源你看到一個好消息第一個有媒體自行去蒐集的喔自行採訪這個真的算是新聞媒體最賤鬼我就自己採訪自己發掘那百分之百是這個新聞媒體的這個沒有問題"},{"start":13243.109,"end":13262.143,"text":"第二個是媒體引述其他人的新聞不管廠商活動這兩個是媒體的第三個現在有超多的新聞我覺得至少三分之一就誰家的行車紀錄器誰家的監視系統看到小偷跑過去車被偷然後就別人的"},{"start":13264.645,"end":13291.187,"text":"新聞點是在那個影片是一個屬於個人或是一個社區的他拿過來民共提供但是媒體報導他到底錢到底要分誰當然最後一個像爆料公司啊社群平台他做一個爆料被營用的所以新聞的產生的一個架構蠻多的來源也不一定那這個新聞如果有分論到底要給誰這是一個未來要思考的問題好不好因為時間已經超過很多"},{"start":13292.188,"end":13303.639,"text":"麻煩我是覺得整個大的平台真的要開個會了好不好因為委員提了這麼多版本你整個行政院的平台還是要運播起來我們會很重視各委員的版本會再跟委員討論好謝謝魯明哲委員現在請陳培宇委員執行"},{"start":13319.039,"end":13325.697,"text":"好 謝謝主席我可以直接請那個述發部的林次長嗎 林進次長林次長好 謝謝"},{"start":13332.793,"end":13352.032,"text":"市長午安我其實從這個新聞議價法媒體議價法我其實直接想跟你討論其實就是四個字叫做內容有價因為不管是在過去新聞媒體時代或者是現在所謂的大型語言模型就是所謂大家日常現在用的非常習慣的chat GPT其實這些語料模型背後都需要有意義的"},{"start":13352.532,"end":13375.431,"text":"資料是那我們來看一下現在的狀態是這樣來下一張在台灣其實二零二五年的一月二十雜誌公會他們推內容有價侵權有罪這件事情而且有相關的訴訟正在進行我相信你是清楚的我就不再贅述其實不只新聞媒體的內容有價過去傳統出版產業的內容也是有價的那在訓練這些餘料模型上來往下看"},{"start":13376.232,"end":13397.947,"text":"我們回到加拿大他們有這個負面的例子就是跟台灣一樣他們控告OpenAI在未經許可而且沒有付費的情況下盜取新聞機構數以百萬計受版權保護的文章於是呢這五個新聞機構就對OpenAI提起訴訟那目前訴訟正在進行中這個是比較負面的例子跟台灣一樣可是我們也看到正面的例子我們來看一下"},{"start":13398.487,"end":13425.849,"text":"Chubb GPT花錢跟很多英國媒體從衛報開始整個大型的媒體集團開始用付費的方法授權使用這個資料尤其在Chubb GPT的Search版我們看到他們所用的都是這些我們認為非常精緻的語料資料餵給這個模型然後於是產出的內容就變得相對有意義那其實很多使用者也都大聲叫好但是我要說有訴訟的部分"},{"start":13426.289,"end":13443.416,"text":"也有合理授權 合法授權 付錢的部分所以看起來這件事情此時此刻正在世界上發生好 下一張我看到速發部在3月3號有這個新聞稿我相信這應該是速發部主動提供的次長您在相關的媒體報導中 您說"},{"start":13444.776,"end":13466.446,"text":"建立台湾主权AI训练的语料库松绑著作权法而且要免费提供训练语料给国内国外的大型语言模型让他们使用台湾的资料减少AI厂商跟内容拥有者的著作权纠纷我从一路讲到现在意思就是说我们台湾的速发布看起来"},{"start":13466.866,"end":13491.227,"text":"知道世界的趨勢就是有訴訟的部分也有合法合理授權的部分看起來抒發部現在在這件事情上想要採一個角色就是協助內容擁有者跟語料廠商AI廠商找到一個合作的可能性而不要去採進訴訟這件事情所以您剛剛說在這個新聞稿當說要免費提供訓練語料我想要說一下這個idea是怎麼來的"},{"start":13492.916,"end":13509.473,"text":"因為我們在於說我們拿一些資料去訓練AI的model的時候到底這些AI model的廠商要不要付費來取得這些資料給這些內容擁有者這件事情本身是一個兩難一方面就是說那個內容的擁有者他覺得說我覺得要收錢"},{"start":13510.455,"end":13526.033,"text":"可是對於這些大型的AI模型來講的話其實我也跟他們溝通過他們對於說使用台灣的資料來訓練他們的模型他們事實上是很有疑慮的事實上不是因為他們腹部起錢而是他們擔心會侵權"},{"start":13527.695,"end":13548.415,"text":"因為他們需要而且他們覺得說他要花很多的時間去跟台灣的內容擁有者去做那個談判他們擔心的是這個部分那結果造成的狀況呢是說像那個ChatterGPT或者是LAMA或者是這種外國的模型他在選擇那個中文語料庫的時候他們常常是拿中國的語料庫因為中國比較不注重"},{"start":13551.858,"end":13578.744,"text":"知識財產權所以那個變得比較容易比較沒有法律風險那結果最後的結果是很不好的就是當我們用中文問問題的時候可能就會產出Garbage in Garbage out的問題所以我先肯定書法部在這件事情上先踩住了一個立場就是要協助所謂的內容擁有者跟國內外的AI廠商但問題也就來了當你已經先喊出想辦法先找到免費授權"},{"start":13580.084,"end":13597.275,"text":"或者是沒有著作權為優先各式各樣的語料資料我覺得這是很重要的一步但是我來我自己來自於所謂內容產業界我必須要說台灣的內容產業界不論是來下一張不論是好先直接跳下一張我要說台灣的"},{"start":13598.095,"end":13619.165,"text":"生產內容的這些創作者不管是像楊雙子最近得了美國國家圖書獎或者是很棒的動畫廠商或者是我們在波羅納德大獎的插畫家這些都還只是我簡單的舉例這些有意義的而且高品質的素材其實可能才是下一步速發步你們的挑戰也就是我們剛開始先促成了這個合作的橋樑可是"},{"start":13620.947,"end":13639.269,"text":"當餘料廠商這些AI廠商他們說我們想要更多很棒的資料協助我們產出有意義的內容的時候公司的發展是有價值的速發部未來要如何協助協同文化部協助這些內容擁有者真的可以找到一個合理的對談模式之餘對這些AI廠商"},{"start":13640.82,"end":13653.837,"text":"首先在政策上面我們是主張就是說如果沒有經過正式的授權的話這些語言模型它不能隨便拿台灣的這些語調去當然這個非常非常重要免得遇到像加拿大那個訴訟一樣"},{"start":13655.559,"end":13672.738,"text":"我們剛剛講除了那些免費的我們提供免費的以外我們認為說高品質的這些乳料其實應該是正式取得授權而且付費那我們就想辦法在法律上面我們跟文化部一起合作想辦法建立出一個規則然後一個計價的方法降低這個"},{"start":13673.939,"end":13700.108,"text":"這個negotiation的那個成本 這樣子的話不管是台灣或者是國外的這些那個大型圓模型LLM他們就會更方便更快速的取得這些這些餘料 就如同我們剛才所講的 其實他們真正在乎的不是他付多少錢 因為對他們來講這些錢不是很大的金額他們在乎的是這個協商的成本以及這個法律侵權的那個可能性"},{"start":13700.308,"end":13715.329,"text":"還有就是跨國文化之間的不同啦我必須要這麼說你讓這些open air的廠商他到台灣來要找到這些內容擁有者直接對話其實是困難的但是我透過速發部跟文化部合作的平台真的在假以時日我們真的希望在台灣我們也可以聽到很棒的case"},{"start":13715.649,"end":13743.405,"text":"就是像他們跟衛報買相關內容一樣作為繁中語料在整個openAI的模型或是其他廠商的模型當中是有意義的所以我這邊是快速雖然你在新聞稿上說這個其實需要花一些時間來我們下一張最後我的建議是說我們有沒有機會請書發部跟專家學者受到影響產業代表制裁局 國科會 文化部等相關單位嚴寧相關的進度我希望有機會在三個月內召開會議六個月內提供相關規劃報告是有機會的嗎"},{"start":13745.874,"end":13759.924,"text":"是 我們報告員我們會朝這個方向努力好 好 我想所有內容業者跟所謂的AI廠商都非常期待在部會的協調之下真的幫他們找到一個合理的而且合法的對話窗口 好嗎是好 謝謝次長 謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝陳培宜委員現在請黃國昌總召執行"},{"start":13775.759,"end":13804.377,"text":"來 謝謝主席 麻煩有請NCC代理主委好 NCC陳代主委委員好主委好 NCC事實上癱瘓非常久了啦理由非常的多 我為什麼說NCC癱瘓很久了我等一下進一步 資訊的內容會進一步的說明先從第一步開始NCC組織法修正通過生效了以後搞了五個月"},{"start":13805.56,"end":13832.838,"text":"搞了五個月新的NCC主委提名名單沒有辦法送到立法院來左榮泰之前總諮詢的時候承諾四月底以前要送來今天已經五月一號了什麼時候會送來還是你也不知道我是看沒報導這禮拜應該有機會這禮拜應該有機會今天禮拜四嘛所以剩下明天禮拜五一個主委提名搞五個月送不出來"},{"start":13834.361,"end":13847.243,"text":"誰在台灣NCC是行政部門在台灣NCC還是立法部門在台灣NCC你覺得呢一個主委的提名單搞五個月送不出來誰在台灣NCC"},{"start":13853.999,"end":13869.443,"text":"主委委員的提名職權是在行政院嘛不關你的事啦所以是行政院院長在台灣NCC這個話你講不太出來沒關係接下來就關你的事啦今天事啦從一開始"},{"start":13870.834,"end":13891.569,"text":"在深射執照取得執照的過程當中政治的黑手就直接伸到NCC裡面去整個醜聞臭不可聞結果我們的NCC在前後任主委交相接棒之下幫金電視的醜聞cover"},{"start":13893.45,"end":13916.477,"text":"超過了三年超過了三年有很多立法委員不敢得罪媒體所以可能不敢講怕被媒體追殺嘛一天到晚在PO一些抹黑抹黃的新聞但我從來不像這種惡勢力低頭的現在進電視從拿到執照到現在過多久了"},{"start":13921.269,"end":13947.304,"text":"應該 委員這邊的資料應該看起來超過三年了嘛對這個你自己業務要鎖啦超過了三年 過了三年要不要舉行評鑑要現在有在做嗎程序進行中程序進行中對會不會認真的評鑑還是打算繼續放水不會 都是依法辦理好評鑑的過程當中財務的狀況要不要評鑑"},{"start":13951.452,"end":13972.455,"text":"依據這個法是評鑑的項目之一好沒關係今天把我在這邊的質詢當作我公開質疑的資訊交給所有的評鑑委員做參考我為什麼這樣講這個電視台一開始在申請的時候兩位我非常敬重"},{"start":13973.86,"end":13991.655,"text":"新聞媒體界的前輩一個王維堅老師一個林立雲老師啊他們提出了質地有深的不同意見書啊有風骨我給他們很高啊的肯定當初在提不同意見書的時候啊就直指啊他們的財務狀況真的撐得下去嗎畫大餅畫成這個樣子真的做得出來嗎"},{"start":13998.405,"end":14022.291,"text":"這個當初啊兩位前委員啊所提出的不同意見書都是公開的資訊當初他們提出這樣子的質疑的時候提出這樣子的質疑的時候因為喔這個是當初在申涉的時候重要的條件之一嘛他不是要成立民間版的公共電視嗎要成立民間版的公共電視就財務狀況出了這麼大的問題現在進電視啊的實收資本額有多少"},{"start":14028.459,"end":14045.893,"text":"核准是20億他有申請30億核准是20億嘛你知不知道20億什麼時候燒完了知道嗎沒有很清楚沒有很清楚現在不是正在辦評鑑嗎財務狀況不是評鑑重點項目之一嗎我給我請我們處長來補充可以他資料送進來我們要還沒有進那個初審會議"},{"start":14056.716,"end":14080.93,"text":"所以現在還在程序的初階段實質的內容都還搞不清楚就對了來我給NCC主委看當初NCC評估通過了財務規劃你現在在螢幕的左手邊看到的這個深色營運計畫及補正17頁當中的第4頁這個是NCC你們當初內部審查的時候所做的PPT"},{"start":14081.769,"end":14109.915,"text":"我不曉得你看過沒有但我可以跟你保證這不是我偽造變造的這個是你們當初在審查的時候NCC內部啦你們早上夜館單位要跟主委報告的時候啊所做PPT的內容好第一個當初有做很多評估嘛有做很多預測嘛但我當初看到這個東西的時候我就發現根本在鬼扯"},{"start":14111.127,"end":14136.175,"text":"什麼叫做根本在鬼扯啊來現在每年平均稅前淨損多少錢知道嗎不是很清楚股東權益佔股本比多少知道嗎委員這邊所列五項目前手上有沒有確確的掌握好沒有關係你現在手上沒有資料沒有關係但我要提醒NCC喔這次不要再放水了"},{"start":14137.308,"end":14160.742,"text":"這次不要再放水了我上面所講的這個東西啊你們好好回去對對看當初你們在發這個執照的時候內部評估怎麼做的做得笑死人啊我今天趕在國會殿堂啊說你們當初做的內部評估笑死人啊右邊我所列出來的這五個問題負債比多少流動比多少"},{"start":14161.761,"end":14190.131,"text":"收入有很乎評估嗎你們在今年在做評鑑的時候這些事情都應該做嘛對不對會在考量範圍內好好做齁好好做為什麼因為10億的石頭資本額啊其實2022年年底啊就燒完了這個數字不是我編出來的是他們內部的他們內部啊自己在2022年年底的時候估出來的"},{"start":14192.201,"end":14199.363,"text":"2022年的時候20億就燒完了現在問題來了2023年2024年到現在已經是2025年的5月1號了嘛過去兩年四個月錢從哪裡來從天上掉下來嗎說他們要來辦理申請辦理增資你知不知道他一個月虧多少錢"},{"start":14216.997,"end":14242.355,"text":"照委員的資料,除到他三年的話大概會二十億除以三年的話,一年差不多六億多對嘛,所以你還是有概念嘛一年要虧六億多啦一個月大概五千萬現在問題來了二十億燒完了以後,現在還有十幾億錢到底哪裡來?評鑑的時候好好做評鑑的時候好好做為什麼?"},{"start":14243.769,"end":14252.525,"text":"之前在整個發照的過程當中NCC內神通外鬼檢舉人的資料 指證歷例"},{"start":14254.655,"end":14281.796,"text":"檢舉人的資料只證歷例結果搞了半天NCC到目前為止還有在查嗎還是查無不法謝謝指教政風體系已經查完然後相關的這個相關人大概也有提出剪掉那邊那邊在剪掉已經係數暗中是 你是不是知道剪掉從案件係數到現在稅了幾年你大概不知道啦這個責任也不是你要扛啦"},{"start":14283.638,"end":14299.043,"text":"睡了兩年多啊睡了兩年多啊台灣的司法現在是變成怎麼樣有執政黨撐腰啊當執政黨當鷹犬當打手啊有關係就沒關係啊案子直接放在那邊給他睡啊"},{"start":14302.057,"end":14326.684,"text":"這個事情我公開講過非常多次了啦但涉及到的是什麼之前的洩密我看新的NCC應該也沒有辦法再查下去啦提求踢給減掉就好啦但問題是什麼當初給的行政處分是有負負擔的喔是有負負擔的喔如果發現了具有廢紙條件的負擔的話應該要怎麼處理"},{"start":14329.588,"end":14356.93,"text":"最嚴重的時候可以廢止原來的許可最嚴重要廢止原來的許可嘛請你們好好的查下去為什麼他在申請增加資本額的時候他要講明白嘛說錢到底哪裡來的嘛是不是本來八大股東給的嘛還是有新的股東嘛之前我已經公開檢舉過很多次了連出賣股份的股東自己都承認了"},{"start":14358.599,"end":14379.67,"text":"陳泰銘自己都承認啦我股份早就賣掉啦但是NCC查無不法根本報告在他們上架的時候我們就請他們提出切結那相關的 切結有用嗎切結有用嗎他要負法律責任好來你們後來有沒有請陳泰銘來說明"},{"start":14382.022,"end":14405.9,"text":"他當天是沒有來 但是他有委託書對 那他的委託書上面寫什麼就不關你NCC的事 你沒有權利查碼這個就是我在講的啊你們NCC面對這些大財團大老闆 亂啪啪你叫我來我不來啊 叫一個律師發一個函給你啊說這是我的隱私 我的財務資料 我為什麼要跟你講當初在騙執照的時候"},{"start":14410.771,"end":14417.216,"text":"什麼都敢講直到騙到了以後要開始查是不是私下賣股不敢去你們那邊說謊連去都不去這位大老闆很囂張啊非常囂張啊我上面打的每一個字啊都陳泰銘自己講的"},{"start":14436.513,"end":14462.191,"text":"你主管機關去查資金流向嘛 錢從哪裡來 錢誰給的 錢給什麼人不就查出來了錢送到葉國一那邊 錢送到陳志遠那邊 錢送到陳靜才那邊這樣不就查出來了這塊我們當初也要喊起相關機關協力然後呢沒有一個確確的違反所以現在到底在玩什麼"},{"start":14463.339,"end":14490.447,"text":"到底在玩什麼當事人對外自己都承認了到NCC那邊查無不法整個爛攤子一直延續到今天整個爛攤子一直延續到今天啊我希望這一次三年的評鑑到了三年評鑑到了整個營運計畫書包括當初所做的承諾是不是有切實的履行我希望這次NCC評鑑好好做"},{"start":14491.391,"end":14514.025,"text":"他目前是有兩個負擔沒有到位一個是首語新聞一個國際新聞我們已經給他罰代金他現在提起訴訟在台北高雄了沒有關係啦反正最後這次評鑑的結果社會大眾拭目以待希望NCC這一次你是現在雖然是代理的主委基本上面依法行政還是很重要的事"},{"start":14515.578,"end":14531.545,"text":"不要讓今天是覺得說他有民進黨撐腰就可以為所欲為啊可以嗎我們的一切依法行政OK好謝謝委員好謝謝黃國昌總召接下來陳其凱張其凱委員是對張其凱委員執行抱歉"},{"start":14556.52,"end":14579.689,"text":"都是要製造這個效果我們請這個速發部的黃部長還有NCC的陳主委還有公平會的毛祖密好 公平會已經問了一個早上了我覺得我們現在來解決問題我們把問題 把它我們共同來解決問題"},{"start":14585.502,"end":14609.082,"text":"這個新聞有價這個是還有一個公平的環境啊台灣這個媒體環境要更能夠健全這個大家都有共識嘛那經過這個早上發現有一個比較嚴重的問題就是說你提到那個川普的高官稅這個衝擊啦那事實上這個從昨天開始我覺得台灣有很多專家學者還有很多很有智慧的朋友馬上就去解決這個問題他說真正"},{"start":14612.098,"end":14631.505,"text":"會對高官稅有衝擊的其實就是你要用抽他的這個數位稅設置這個特種基金嘛對不對那這個我覺得這個我們就可以如果要解決問題這個我們就可以先把它停下來那可是可是讓這個媒體有強制溢價溢價法這個強制溢價我這件事是可以推的"},{"start":14632.452,"end":14659.169,"text":"好不好我們還是往這個方向走那我們台灣民眾黨的條文很清楚我們本來是雙管齊下有基金有強制這個議價那強制議價我清楚講一下我們這條文都已經明確講了就是說你要讓媒體有一個強制議價的一個做法讓我們可以去跟這個平台他去談就是一個給他一個法律的一個依據然後程序是要明定的這樣你才能夠有一個方法有一個依據跟你有一個強制力去跟"},{"start":14660.253,"end":14685.095,"text":"Google對不對跟Meta他們可以談嘛你就給他一個法源那如果我更進一步來講他們現在是有些是個別的例如說我剛剛講可能東森電視台TBS電視台或者自由跟聯合他們自己就已經已經去談了嘛對不對已經去談了嘛對不對那我是希望說我們在這次的法裡面可以明定一些政府到底怎麼去幫忙的在你們這段時間跟"},{"start":14686.107,"end":14710.951,"text":"跟Google他們都有聯絡嘛對不對這方面我只是覺得政府要多幫我們的媒體跟我們從業人員然後講你看今天一早大家來這邊背景你看我們那個新聞從業人員多辛苦早上都在這裡了可是現在我們碰到什麼問題他們那麼辛苦的在工作可能到後來是做白工啊結果Google就把他們的東西他們拿去用了然後他們就收了廣告"},{"start":14712.786,"end":14733.826,"text":"所以不只是說媒體是要有價的 都是說不公平嘛我相信這個是全世界共同都應該解決的這個問題啦所以不能夠卡住 我覺得不能夠in a face就是說我們現在有一個共識就是說 你每天都吃飯一樣嘛對不對 你已經發展成不公平了對我們的媒體從業人也不公平 對我們媒體產業也不公平"},{"start":14734.912,"end":14761.354,"text":"那政府有責任要多幫忙委員講的問題的確是問題啦那也就是我們一直很關心的問題只是說強制溢價法這個媒體溢價強制這個方法目前在經過這兩年三年在澳洲實施目前在2024年這兩個大我們講的是兩個大媒體一個Google一個Meta都不再付錢這個就變成是一個問題就是說在澳洲實施上是我們從經濟學"},{"start":14762.875,"end":14783.652,"text":"他大欺小強凌肉對不對然後對成我們台灣的媒體受到影響啊我們要去力爭嘛那沒有錯我也接受就是說沒有錯我們現在剛好碰到一個高關稅的這個風暴那可是我們不能停下來就不能音樂會社就停下來啊我們還是要去做嘛要去爭取嘛而且你看到我們台積電都去了投資了一千億美金一開始美國還弄了一個32%"},{"start":14786.06,"end":14809.822,"text":"我們該爭取自己該有的那自己不能夠先放棄啦現在是兩個問題一個就是說到底強制一價法是不是真的能夠幫助我們台灣的新聞媒體我現在這個東西從澳洲的兩年經驗看起來開始要打問號因為澳洲已經停止就是說有一些包括Economics就是經濟資源雜誌都說這個法是加拿大跟澳洲這個法是失敗的"},{"start":14810.703,"end":14830.355,"text":"那主要其實我們在講所謂的這個大平台就兩個一個叫Google一個叫MetaMeta已經到處不付錢那Google也要撤出像在澳洲的付費的機制所以這個法到底是幫助了Local媒體還是傷害Local媒體這就是讓我們非常猶豫的原因因為我們看到的是"},{"start":14831.175,"end":14859.924,"text":"並沒有幫助所以我才講就是部長你說你看還是沒有幫助我們看到為什麼是有幫助那是過他曾經兩年但是我說2024年他們做了某些停止都不代表以後不會往前走我們有跟這兩個完全負面的我講兩個很重要的事情保證你有注意去年十幾我們的這個平面媒體電子媒體跟數位媒體共同做了一個媒體共同聲明你有看到這個聲明嗎聲明裡面就講到三個事情一個就是說"},{"start":14861.311,"end":14879.965,"text":"我們的從業人員跟我們的媒體產業大大量的這個大量的這個內容啊全部都被拿去用了啊他們變成做白工這一堆臉嘛現在碰到是什麼是臉書跟Google他們還收入了這很大的一個廣告欸啊老實講你說他們有沒有有沒有有些你知道"},{"start":14883.001,"end":14904.703,"text":"那個Google曾經播了三年三億三億 太成立了一個基金希望在這個媒體上他們不是沒有做啦所以是可以往前走當然就是這個金額太小了因為Google跟那個Meta他們一年在台灣賺到的錢可能就是400億以上的廣告費嘛你再去提一個一年一億所以那時候很多專家寫者就很生氣啊"},{"start":14906.505,"end":14924.486,"text":"我現在在提醒你就是說你不要變成說好像是一個不公平的狀況下是不是大輕小然後強凌弱的時候然後媒體都已經發出了要求要解決的聲音了我覺得政府要幫他們挺住要幫他們挺住而且你現在今天我一早上聽下來你好像一直覺得說走到現在好像是"},{"start":14925.731,"end":14949.693,"text":"澳洲跟加拿大變成他們後來是不是被推翻了也不一定喔這個應該是現在進行式嘛對不對以前曾經解決的問題那現在有一部分就停了還是可以繼續再談啊那更重要的我同意你我同意你如果有高關稅這個風暴那我們可以我們可以早先再開公聽會可是不能停下來好不好我們會開公聽會我們會再繼續跟那另外有一個來來那個公平會的那個主委"},{"start":14952.899,"end":14975.551,"text":"這次這個議價有可能是一個單一媒體去議價也有可能是一個公會集體去議價嘛對不對這裡面跟你公平會只有關係嘛對不對如果是涉及單一的話不會但是如果是涉及多媒體的話那原則上是我們是認為說這種如果這個媒體的力量如果不足的時候希望大家聯合去跟一個去談的時候"},{"start":14976.932,"end":14994.883,"text":"我們公民法裡頭這15條聯合行為例外許可我們可以透過這個例外許可可以讓他們去聯合起來去跟Google去談這個事情這就是很積極認識嘛對不對幫我們台灣啊幫我們這個媒體啊而且另外我們在條文裡面我們明定了一條啦就是我們會免除"},{"start":14995.663,"end":15020.599,"text":"公交法裡面對於業者透過聯合組織或者是跟這個工會或者是平台去議價的一個禁止條款我們在修法裡面我們會把它拿掉好不好就是明定這個東西不要讓我們媒體要去聯合議價的時候有碰到這個困擾好不好那更重要的是你剛才說的 我覺得很好你更積極面了嘛我們去處理消極面你現在積極面更去幫他們OK好 謝謝空平我最後問一個NCC主委的來好"},{"start":15025.649,"end":15041.661,"text":"你今天早上被問到好幾次你都講說有些媒體已經去去議價了就算碰到了滿大的問題所以我具體做三個要求做三個要求這NCC要幫助我們的業者第一個要揭露要揭露"},{"start":15042.745,"end":15063.69,"text":"Google跟臉書他們新聞內容流量貢獻度你在做用我們的媒體的這個內容的時候這個貢獻度到底有多少他要公開揭露這個你應該試著去做一個要求這個我們在條文裡面我們也會明確的要求第二個要求要揭露新聞排序或者是你推波演算法的邏輯跟變動"},{"start":15065.37,"end":15087.145,"text":"就你今天早上講的啦本來去談這個月是100萬突然下個月變50萬那問題出在什麼地方就因為沒有公開透明嘛對不對所以我要求第一項跟第二項另外第三項我們明定明定平台不得沒有預警的去修改新聞的這個內容我們現在不是只有做白宮給他們用耶有時候內容要給我們亂改耶對不對"},{"start":15088.147,"end":15109.269,"text":"這個應該也是我們要去要求要不然這會導致我們整個媒體有時候形象受損或者我們的媒體流量也會大幅的下滑好不好後續立法的時候我們會把這個重大議題跟平台來溝通所以我們各個部會做我們該做的事情我們很期待讓我們的辛苦的新聞工作人員"},{"start":15110.49,"end":15134.438,"text":"得到他們該拿到的不要再繼續做白狗那希望我們的產業媒體的產業也能夠整個賤錢起來現在媒體真的是很慘啊你看每個人都在伸手跟政府要錢啊弄到後來拿我們人民的納稅錢給他有時候還要洗你的腦 這樣都不好我們只要把這個法好好修媒體醫劑法修好對我們整個媒體的產業環境啊第四錢的這個賤錢對我們民主發展會有很大幫助那這非常努力 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝張七開委員現在楊瓊英委員執行"},{"start":15148.083,"end":15148.564,"text":"梁委員好"},{"start":15160.275,"end":15175.026,"text":"我們來討論這個通訊軟體它是已經成為民眾生活日常生活的一部分但是詐騙集團透過了各種方式盜用帳號竊密讓國人受害者日日在增加"},{"start":15175.646,"end":15197.963,"text":"所以據媒體報導在4月23號的時候盜用帳號事件陳述不窮連行政院前政務委員的LINE都被盜用了那麼對此你們的產業署署長他也表示已經邀請了警政署、刑事局等單位跟日本的LINE公司總公司來開會那他承諾會將處理的量能"},{"start":15200.144,"end":15225.405,"text":"從每週100件提升為200件並加快處理的流程這是你們在4月23號的時候對於這個事件我們看到的一個訊息所以在這邊請教部長我們是不是已經有要求賴公司對台灣受害的這個案件來設立緊急停權"},{"start":15226.906,"end":15230.915,"text":"以及快速恢復專案的這個機制請做說明我們這個跟那裡持續溝通那個細節我請是署長還是來 署長"},{"start":15237.833,"end":15266.72,"text":"那這個跟委員報告這個次長也親自來主持跟LINE的一些會議那剛剛已經在報告就是說re-login的話他這個取回他的帳號等等這些好 次長說明那個就是我們昨天有跟LINE開會那LINE他們表示說他們最新版已經上架了的那個最新版的LINE它有一個功能就是說如果我的LINE帳號被詐騙集團被騙走了那我馬上再登入的話在我原來手機上登入我就可以把這個"},{"start":15267.84,"end":15294.732,"text":"帳號再搶回來再搶回來對恢復過來對恢復過來那這個新的版本已經上架了但是並不是所有的民眾都更新到最新的版本所以我們在這邊也要呼籲那個所有的民眾盡快的把手機上的LINE版本更新到最新的這是昨天LINE公司總公司告訴我們的是所以你們必須對對對台灣公司LINE的台灣公司是所以必須好好去宣導是很多的民眾還不知道他如果沒有更新他就沒有這個機制"},{"start":15295.692,"end":15318.602,"text":"是所以一定要好好去宣導是那麼在這邊我特別要說的就是說美國跟韓國他都已經重新的調整整個治安防疫的這個架構那我們呢他們設置的專責機構強化跨部會因為也不是只有你們到時候還要比如說警政單位等橫向的一個聯訪非常的重要請教"},{"start":15319.742,"end":15348.09,"text":"我們本來就那個有治安聯防的機制嘛治安署那個可以做個蔡署長做個報告好 署長請做說明是的 謝謝委員的關心我想這個我們整個治安聯防我們就有一個治安的情資分享中心跟一個監控跟應變中心那每個關鍵機構設施他們都要領域的這些包括我們的情資分享跟監控還有應變的中心都有所以這整個聯防體系都有建立"},{"start":15349.824,"end":15375.791,"text":"部長您聽到署長的報告整個都有建立但是目前民眾還是非常的不安因為我們的防治機制本身認為有提升的一個空間因為我們注意任何的政策任何的法律面我們就要看他的答案如果他的答案是不符合您所"},{"start":15377.655,"end":15400.858,"text":"設置的而且是你自己都不滿意在這樣的情況之下我們更要去討論面對面對民眾所需求那個委員所講的是治安的攻擊嗎還是如果治安的攻擊現在的確台灣是治安的攻擊熱點所以我們也就是剛剛講說用聯防機制我們擋掉了每天超過兩百四十萬次的攻擊"},{"start":15401.759,"end":15426.416,"text":"所以事實上是已經在這個資安的防護上我們因為聯防 因為公司部門的公司協力確實是擋掉很多 但是當然還是有些入侵啦所以這個我們還要繼續努力 但是但是部長在我們的資安署最新的公佈最新的公佈國家資中安全情勢報告當中2024年關關我們公務機關跟2023年來做比較 我們是為真的"},{"start":15431.107,"end":15446.592,"text":"那你們做了那麼多的機制竟然連我們公部門都為政都敢這麼做那我們要怎麼樣去防治這個就是本席一個剛剛所說的我們既然設置了這些的機制但是答案"},{"start":15448.238,"end":15469.923,"text":"還是不滿意的時候我們要去精進這個方案啦這個是非常的重要因為在你治安事件的類型當中以非法入侵的事件是佔了62.52這個是非常高的一個比例啊所以在治安治理的管理上面我們認為我們多數還是停滯在什麼停滯在指引建議"},{"start":15471.364,"end":15491.22,"text":"報告委員我們現在有個治安法修法正在修那個如果修過之後會幫助我們治安房屋很大部長你講的就是本期要跟你討論的既然我們的答案是不如我們的理想的時候我們該當修法就是要修法那你們的進度現在到哪裡治安法已經我們詢答過了現在就是在做逐條的審查我們應該很快"},{"start":15492.781,"end":15518.688,"text":"所以要趕快盡快的去溝通因為這個已經佔了62點多觀光部門就是如此所以我們非常社會上非常迫切的需要因為我們看到我們應變的能力或許在法的立場上面你們還沒有更寬廣所以該修法就要修法該政策落實就要政策落實因為這個應變能力處理事件民眾認為他的透明度是不夠的他沒有辦法有效的去防範"},{"start":15519.995,"end":15544.245,"text":"修法我們會加速進行因為我們的目的也就是要強化政府治安體系的一個韌性最後一個議題我跟你討論數位領域的就業金卡我們從2023年上路到現在兩年到了今年二月底我們總共764人獲得了數位金卡其中以美國跟亞洲地區的人才為主那麼你們主要的類型就在於軟體開發"},{"start":15545.586,"end":15568.746,"text":"城市設計 電商跟治安的技術領域但是我們看到全球都在搶人才啊以及國內產業它轉型它非常的需要這些高科技的一個技術人才所以我們金卡的政策 請問到目前為止我們的規模跟實際上導入的人力似乎還是有限"},{"start":15569.506,"end":15586.122,"text":"還是有限為什麼會如此呢大家都這麼缺那所以我們現在兩年統計的數字764人到底我們人才進到我們台灣來他的後續落地他的創業跟就業的一個成果評估跟追蹤請說說"},{"start":15588.055,"end":15607.504,"text":"那個因為這個庶產署可以做個說明好請做說明是是跟我們報告我們會持續追蹤那我們在這爭取人才是也是花了很大力氣我們就跟國發會到美國到歐洲到東南亞到日本這個本席清楚所以本席請教你764人啊落到我們台灣來目前還在台灣貢獻還在就業的"},{"start":15610.425,"end":15632.343,"text":"有多少跟委員報告有一部分是本來在台灣的外國公司的外國人對他要長期在這邊所以現在你764位還有多少繼續在服務你的追蹤成果呢我們會在持續中不過目前比較沒有出不過一大部分的確是外國公司在台灣的人才"},{"start":15635.107,"end":15655.969,"text":"這個就是我們說的部長我們今天我們英明的召集人安排了這個議程這是你們的課業你今天已經兩年了不是兩個月你已經兩年你今天764人你到底你的成效是怎麼樣你應該要有所評估"},{"start":15656.98,"end":15673.507,"text":"如果我們的數字是不夠的產業界還需要那麼你們的誘因是什麼因為你們有基本的條件嘛你要滿8年的這個經驗而且公司的月薪要16萬以上而且他的學歷要跟這個相關科系"},{"start":15674.307,"end":15697.622,"text":"那你們應該去統計 你的結果到底是怎麼樣我們做任何的事情 你一定要去反覆的去討論你的成果究竟是什麼很好 繼續發揚不好 我們要達不到理想 我們要怎麼樣去精進嘛你怎麼到現在連你764人到底還有多少人落地留戀 還繼續在努力你不知道"},{"start":15699.407,"end":15728.447,"text":"報委員這個回去我們再去整理以後再給委員一個報告不可以如此要精進你把你檢討目前為止你兩年來這個成效符不符合你的要求我認為產業界的需求你絕對達不到他的符合嘛所以如果是如此的時候你的誘因到底要怎麼去調整好不好你去查明你的評估結果到底是怎麼樣可以精進的方案是什麼我們來協助我們的產業嘛好嗎加油"},{"start":15732.588,"end":15753.432,"text":"謝謝楊瓊英委員現在請樓庭委委員執行好謝謝召委有請黃部長蘇衛部黃部長勞動部理事長好勞動部理事長"},{"start":15761.491,"end":15786.277,"text":"部長好 市長好我想今天談到這個新聞媒體數位平台強制溢價法本席版本最重要的一個精神是建立平台的媒體得就以付費議題進行充分協商的議題程序 溢價程序唯有達到最後雙方仍舊無法達成共識的時候才會啟動仲裁機制決定平台應負擔的付費金額健全目前失靈的一個市場機制"},{"start":15787.637,"end":15814.411,"text":"那我想透過資訊的揭露給予雙方的一個合理溢價空間也保障了媒體從業人員今天的一個權益我想今天大家都非常的關切但是我要講的是去年10月14日台北市報業商業同業工會中華民國衛星廣播電視事業商業同業工會中市民視台視發表媒體共同的聲明希望盡速立法 公平競爭今天文化部的報告也寫到"},{"start":15815.251,"end":15826.911,"text":"收集平面媒體業的一個立法意見報業及雜誌業均認為需要立法立法已經是共識了呼籲速發部應該盡速的提出版本"},{"start":15827.847,"end":15845.524,"text":"我要跟部長特別分享本席作為本屆國民黨第一位提出媒體溢價法的一個委員我想大家都知道現在Google跟Meta兩個大型的數位平台長期無償使用這樣子的新聞媒體台灣新聞媒體的廣告收入幾乎是大幅的下滑"},{"start":15846.525,"end":15872.6,"text":"那連帶影響媒體從業人員以及他們的收入今天是五一勞動節我們看到兩間大型的數位科技平台掌握了超過半數的媒體新聞流量成為了台灣主要的新的新聞來源卻不曾來付費我想我講了這麼多我們先不談剛剛我所聽到部長有提的國外的一些案例國外的一些法規就單純你聽我這樣論述你覺得公平嗎 部長"},{"start":15875.842,"end":15904.007,"text":"那個鮑偉這個確實是一個問題那確實也是需要解決問題只是說這個因為從我們現在因為我們訂一個方案必須要有效那只是說這個目前是看起來我們原來認為的方案但目前看起來其實對我們媒體擔心是反效果有擔心當然也有期待那剛剛你有提到澳洲這個部分的案例但是你也要找找看有沒有其他各國有沒有成功的案例"},{"start":15905.047,"end":15929.097,"text":"我們希望說在這個部分上 如果他沒有成功案例剛剛旁邊有人打pass說沒有成功案例但是沒關係我知道 我有看到了沒有成功案例 但是我要講的是在澳洲的部分有失敗的案例那可不可以將這失敗的案例我們來加以的去做一個調整成為台灣目前能夠有的新方案那成為一個成功模式 我們也可以變成全球首創"},{"start":15930.037,"end":15948.854,"text":"那我還是希望說 建請召委能夠則其的盡快逐條審查也拜託召委這麼的英明 今天所排審這樣子的一個題目那我想新聞有價是社會共識 社會期待剛剛也提到10月14日我們看到這樣子的這麼多媒體從業人員還有相關的 不管是平面雜誌 他們都發聲了新聞有價 應該禁訴立法"},{"start":15951.596,"end":15965.132,"text":"我想那難道這些聲音速發部不知道還是速發部就只是因為澳洲的案例所以現在不提版本是這樣嗎我們都知道你們有版本嗎我們剛剛講說我們有跟媒體溝通好我相信那你們有版本嗎部長"},{"start":15971.9,"end":15994.538,"text":"跟委員報告我們都相信媒體有價但是解決這個問題有三種解決方案第一個是法律第二個是商業第三個是用科技那目前我們從這個加拿大或者是澳洲或者是歐盟的這個案例來看的話這些立法都沒有成功的案例事實上以那個加拿大來講的話他們通過他們的Online News Act以後"},{"start":15995.399,"end":16014.398,"text":"那個Meta就在加拿大把所有的那個媒體的新聞的連結通通移除掉移除掉退出嘛我都知道所以我想說你剛剛說的法律 商業 科技我們現在是著重在商業跟科技的方法我們來幫助這個媒體讓他收到如果你認為強制溢價是膽有"},{"start":16020.283,"end":16042.308,"text":"那我們這一部法令也不一定要叫做你所說的溢價法可以叫做說往這個科技商業的部分來做規範那我想叫什麼名字都不重要重要的是我們的台灣媒體從業人員因為獲利增加讓我們所有的從業人員福利跟權益增加這是我們現在在重視的"},{"start":16043.248,"end":16062.269,"text":"那現在現階段速發部的報告有提到審慎考量目前國際的局勢目前國際的局勢不排除引發美國採關稅報復的一個風險我想你提出這樣子的報告我們不能批評因為你把風險寫上去嘛但是我們可以探討這樣子的一個部分我想問"},{"start":16063.663,"end":16089.031,"text":"我們先提啊 速發部數位產業署副署長陳惠敏在2024年10月29日也曾經表示速發部非常贊成媒體溢價法的一個立法但幾個國家推動時也面臨了壓力國內若有共識速發部願意配合言猶在耳啊那當然今天所提到的美國關稅又是另外一個題目但是請問部長"},{"start":16091.352,"end":16109.223,"text":"現在台灣的媒體希望能夠有這樣子的議價法已經遭到美國關切了嗎還是你們只是單純評估風險因為我們還沒有立法所以現在美國還沒有表示他的態度但是從美國商會有表示態度但是也從目前澳洲跟加拿大被美國"},{"start":16110.283,"end":16126.923,"text":"這樣的一個反對我們也擔心台灣如果通過類似的法律一樣會得到美國的一些反對那現階段在關稅正在談判的一個時程當中我們都知道召委排了這一個題目那我覺得這是一個非常好談判關稅的一個談判條件"},{"start":16130.066,"end":16146.368,"text":"那你有沒有跟行政院甚至未來要準備已經在談判的過程當中把媒體溢價法也列入到我們跟美國談判的一個關鍵之一跟委員報告我們已經跟行政院的關稅談判的那個長官都已經報告過這件事情了"},{"start":16146.428,"end":16172.986,"text":"好 對 那所以嘛 既然有機會成為談判條件之一我還是建議啊 趙委實際上跟委員報告 我們不希望在這個時候因為這件事情變成這個關稅談判團隊的障礙你認為是障礙啦 但昨天我想我們昨天有看到牛許廷委員在講這個行政院對談的時候有講這個美國關稅在談判的過程快不一定好"},{"start":16174.046,"end":16196.156,"text":"擬定雙方的需要就競爭型的一個談判還是要做下來好好的談判我覺得這些項目都是談判的一個條件之一我覺得作為在野黨執政黨要去談判執政黨有所謂的包袱有所謂的壓力但在野黨我們也希望當執政黨的黑臉"},{"start":16197.556,"end":16216.051,"text":"讓執政黨在面對國際的壓力的時候也能夠把在野黨的聲音講出來作為執政黨談判的籌碼所以我還是建議趙偉這個應該還是要持續的推動我們走一步算一步成為我們現在中華民國談判的時候"},{"start":16216.511,"end":16244.75,"text":"也能夠一方面為了媒體而發聲一方面我們也能夠適時的作為談判條件說不定說不定到時候美國所給予的這樣相關的一個條件可能更好但現在我們不是強硬的是一定要過而是我們一邊走一邊把這些媒體的聲音把從業人員的一些困難一一的把它給探討更希望在逐條討論的時候有行政院的版本但我想部長我想跟你請問你個人認為啦"},{"start":16247.032,"end":16257.347,"text":"我們的步驟啊就媒體議價而言一定是先自由議價再來指派調解人再來強制仲裁你覺得這三個步驟哪一個步驟會成為美國關稅報復最大的一個風險"},{"start":16264.118,"end":16287.354,"text":"他們關切哪一個部分這三個條件當中當然整個法我知道跟委員報告主要是強制溢價還有強制仲裁這個部分美國有非常大的意見強制仲裁是第三嘛所以我想旁邊我們的長官也非常的專業他在討論這個部分但是自由溢價我們可以先看到如果自由溢價有這個機會"},{"start":16289.161,"end":16315.846,"text":"那在議價法當中我們是可以再加強自由議價以及調解的部分強制仲裁是可能被最為關切的部分在逐條審查的時候我們要不要把強制的部分納入或者是逐步的納入或者是部分的納入這個都可以再討論所以我們還是要了解什麼樣的關鍵的法會讓美國比較關切那現在看到自由議價跟這個所謂的調解"},{"start":16318.972,"end":16338.588,"text":"這個部分是沒有疑慮的所以我若不透過法律的程序來立法那媒體有什麼力量去做數位平台的談判所以溢價的機制要如何來進行這是我們現階段應該著重在前面兩個階段為媒體來發聲所以台灣媒體的產業不像國外若過度的謹慎"},{"start":16339.989,"end":16365.69,"text":"我們目前現在的局勢恐怕會具媒體的產業更加的劇烈困境所以也會進一步的弱化整個媒體的相關風險所以立法才是著重於媒體的著作權的一個保障那我想請問一下勞動部是請問次長喔勞動部是否認同透過媒體議價法的立法能改善記者薪資跟勞動環境"},{"start":16369.015,"end":16385.951,"text":"我們勞動部對於任何能夠提高包括記得朋友在來勞工朋友的薪資福利勞動條件我們都支持至於這一個法因為我們都尊重速發部他們的主管權責勞動部自己沒有立場嗎在於強制溢價的部分"},{"start":16387.318,"end":16413.106,"text":"因為議價這件事如果照團體協議法要有工會才能夠那我們台灣目前媒體新聞媒體業有成立工會的這個事業單位就我了解並不是多數所以可能我們要先鼓勵新聞媒體業他們的事業單位的勞工能夠成立工會你點出一個問題嘛那所以這部分不管最後議價法有沒有通過我覺得還是先鼓勵讓他們能夠成立嘛對不對加強這個部分的一個凝聚"},{"start":16413.286,"end":16431.702,"text":"我們勞動部一向都有一些鼓勵那個企業世界單位的勞工成立企業工會的一些補助跟協助輔導方案好那這個部分我們還是希望勞動部應該站在整個媒體從業人員的立場我相信媒體如果能夠多賺錢他一定會多分配資源那現在請問黃部長"},{"start":16433.243,"end":16456.986,"text":"台灣媒體溢價法的立法就數位平台而言Google有提出台灣新聞數位共融基金目前成效如何有辦法促進產業共融嗎有現在已經有40個Case然後一年一億現在第二年執行完畢所以你覺得有提升台灣新聞生態系的一個多元跟永續那個請那個署長可以署長請說"},{"start":16458.246,"end":16484.554,"text":"是 我們目前認為這個應該對媒體是很有幫助另外它Google也有另外一個專案就是北極星的專案它這個是請國外的顧問就Financial Times來教導國內的媒體如何做新聞地鏈的一個營運模式新的營運模式來 那這樣子台灣新聞產業長期受到數位廣告的營收外流等結構性的一個問題現在你說單一基金看起來有效但是整個單一基金可以解決根本問題嗎你覺得可以嗎"},{"start":16486.595,"end":16504.969,"text":"請問委員指的是哪一種的基金是媒體強制溢價得到的基金還是政府那是Google出錢的基金我剛剛有講Google提出台灣新聞數位共榮基金你們說有效可是整個結構性的問題就單一個基金就可以解決嗎"},{"start":16505.84,"end":16534.209,"text":"我們認為說另外一個北極星計畫可能更有幫助因為現在媒體的困境是失去訂閱的收入然後因為那個financial time他們在訂閱制做得非常好所以他就跟那個google合作然後經過我們那個速發部的促成他們現在在台灣幫各個新聞媒體做那個訂閱制的那個機制那這個費用都是由所以我要講的說單一基金不可能我們還是要需要多元的計畫去整個促進整個根本問題那Live Today呢有提出什麼嗎"},{"start":16535.424,"end":16559.743,"text":"有跟媒體要什麼合作方案嗎Light Today目前他們本來就已經在付費了Light Today本來就是在付錢給媒體好 他們現在就有在付費了所以還是有人願意做嘛所以我們要怎麼樣把這些商考模式都一一列出好好的去談成為我們這一次幫媒體發聲最主要的一個內容好不好 好 我們一起加油 謝謝謝謝樓庭偉委員現在請吳佩奕委員指請"},{"start":16570.592,"end":16579.792,"text":"謝謝主席我請速發部國科會速發部我們黃部長還有國科會的代表國科會有來嗎"},{"start":16583.391,"end":16602.163,"text":"這個新興資通組好謝謝部長今天是五一勞動節所以要先跟線上所有的媒體朋友說一聲辛苦了那從早上九點到現在大家都還在所以我盡量就是手持六分鐘之內來完成我的質詢那首先是呢我們今天討論的這一個法案我在速發部的報告裡面我第二頁看到你們說經濟"},{"start":16603.664,"end":16625.331,"text":"學仁的雜誌指出加拿大原本要透過立法輔助新聞產業結果反而造成傷害另外強制議價權雖然利益良善但如果大型社群媒體平台等選擇停止提供新聞連結結果受到傷害的反而會是新聞媒體而其中又以中小型媒體受到衝擊會最為嚴重能不能就精簡的來簡單說明說以實務狀況你們為什麼會這樣判斷"},{"start":16630.073,"end":16653.724,"text":"我們有做一些研究 那時候請次長來先報告這個是去年5月16號就是經濟學人雜誌他說的這個他說的這個狀況是在於說在加拿大通過Online News Act以後就是媒體強制溢價法以後呢結果Metha他選擇把那個 就是不玩了他把這個加拿大臉書上面所有的新聞連結都封鎖掉"},{"start":16654.244,"end":16675.437,"text":"所以這是我在加拿大我拜訪那個加拿大政府的時候他們給我看的那個一個截圖就是在加拿大我如果在臉書上我嘗試去看CNN或者是任何加拿大媒體的新聞我就是通通被封鎖掉了那因為它都已經封鎖掉了所以就是沒有辦法去議價從商業行為上來講的話Facebook它已經不提供任何的新聞連結"},{"start":16676.357,"end":16697.244,"text":"所以那個對於加拿大的那個各個那個新聞媒體來講其實狀況更糟因為他們連流量都沒有原來他們只是收不到錢他就連流量都沒有以後他的狀況就更糟糕了以上報告好那我看到我們2023年文化部有委託雜誌公會做一個數位平台對於出版業新聞媒體的影響一個調查報告"},{"start":16698.584,"end":16716.469,"text":"因為其實我們非常關注的也是台灣媒體出版業我們在這是全球性的一個衝擊之下我們要如何生存而且我們要繼續發展這個其中其實受到平台衝擊最大的是在廣告部分報紙的廣告減少八成雜誌減少六成其他像消費營收通通都有六成至三成這樣的減少的衝擊"},{"start":16718.55,"end":16722.012,"text":"所以我知道因為這個法案你們已經持續的來找我們媒體的業者以及平台業者已經進行好幾次我們跨部會的會議討論那我要特別提醒的是因為這個平台對於媒體業的衝擊對於大型的媒體跟中小型的媒體"},{"start":16734.577,"end":16739.599,"text":"其實他這個因為多元的這個樣態他所造成的影響以及他的溢價能力談判的籌碼都是很不一樣的所以我希望你們這個討論要持續並且我們必須要多元的這個樣本要去了解說實務上他們現在最受到衝擊例如說小型的媒體他可能需要的比較不是廣告收入也許他是這個曝光流量等等那大型的媒體他需要廣告收入他才能夠有更長"},{"start":16762.988,"end":16770.134,"text":"起的這樣的發展也從而可以讓台灣的出版新聞製造業有更多的從業人員可以提供我們新聞不但的傳出所以我希望喔這個剛剛前面說來的這個羅廷文委員他是希望你們說走一步算一步但是因為我的意見不同尊重個別委員發言我認為不行啦我們公務部門必須要謹慎周全我認為我們要謹慎周全討論完備之後"},{"start":16786.468,"end":16811.925,"text":"才能跨出這一步否則像我們去年看到在立法院針對這個預算凍結刪除就是走一步算一步這樣子的心態結果呢後來才發現有一些預算是不該刪除不該凍結的才來現在要處理解凍所以我還是希望速發部務必跟其他跨部會謹慎周全然後對於我們台灣的媒體出版從業者要有多樣態的了解以後我們再來進行更充沛完備的研議因為我們目的是希望可以幫助他們幫助產業再來要了解的是除了對於這個"},{"start":16816.588,"end":16845.655,"text":"平台以外深層式的AI在台灣的發展這個其實也有牽涉到我們著作臨階權這樣子的問題那歐盟也有提出這樣子的27個國家的歐盟國家都已經完成相關的立法那其實台灣現在深層式AI發展也很快速我看了一下像美國有發生例如說這個有聯約時報在內的媒體向法院提告認為說有深層式AI的這個單位在沒有授權沒有付費的情況下使用他們的資料"},{"start":16846.215,"end":16871.041,"text":"那麼現在OpenAI是已經跟美聯社法國世界報英國金融時報等業者都已經有簽訂協議了就是說你要使用它的內容的話你必須要取得合法的授權那在台灣我請國哥後來就是說我們政府也有AI我們的這個台德目前我們針對我們這個內容我們都是合法授權使用的嘛我之前有跟你們了解我目前是怎麼樣來取得這些合法授權的"},{"start":16872.001,"end":16890.208,"text":"報告委員在泰德跟各個不同的團體比如說像是新聞媒體洽談過程當中有不同的結果像是跟中央社是以有價的方式購得那ETtoday在上一個部分的話他們是以無償的方式跟我們談授權那下一波還會再進行不同的媒體的溝通"},{"start":16890.948,"end":16918.274,"text":"好這部分我覺得很重要因為我們公部門要先以身作則就是說我們使用這些資料應該都要去取得合法的授權那新聞有價從我們公部門先開始做起那我相信這個這個組長謝謝這個部長我相信也不會只有台的這一個這個模式所以我請你們我們有沒有針對過在台灣的AI未來廣泛去實驗這些資料的授權有沒有做過相關的研究報告我們有一個資料創新師專門在針對不管是從"},{"start":16920.094,"end":16925.232,"text":"那個條例或從那個一些的辦法那未來我們會怎麼樣來協助他們的授權呢"},{"start":16926.793,"end":16952.231,"text":"跟委員報告首先我們現在已經研擬一個台灣主權AI訓練語料授權條款就合理的使用這種重置行為那這個合理的使用這個部分呢我們這個授權條款就是會跟制裁局一起共同研擬那如果內容妥適之後呢我們就會對外公佈讓政府機關先行那再來就是產業之間也可以同意這個授權條款之後呢我們就可以大量的釋出這些高品質的一個語料好這很重要我希望我們要先來以身作則謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":16956.193,"end":16976.147,"text":"謝謝吳沛逸委員執行接下來葉延芝委員執行主席好 麻煩請找蘇發部的部長蘇衛部黃部長委員好"},{"start":16982.885,"end":17009.56,"text":"部長好我想跟你談一下打炸因為你們最新四月應該是上個禮拜還是上上禮拜有宣報說說你們那個網炸通報查詢網重新上線現在要求就是大家可以一起來測試如果測試完之後沒有什麼問題你們就要正式上線那這個東西其實拖了蠻久的啦拖了蠻久的那當然我們是希望這個東西可以成功啦"},{"start":17010.06,"end":17025.351,"text":"那你們這個操作就是說如果有網友在網路上看到一個疑似詐騙的訊息就可以把這個網址貼到這個APP裡面然後可以看到說這東西是不是詐騙然後你們也會通報相關機關然後去做查詢然後確定它是詐騙或不是詐騙"},{"start":17026.152,"end":17050.778,"text":"那如果是公眾人物的話也可以通報給這個APP那如果發現有被詐騙的話你們會同步通知本人也會通知像FB、LINE、Google、IG等社群平台同步要求他們下架沒錯啦 這個是當初宣傳的內容那我們來檢視一下因為我也去測試了一下你們這個查詢網那我就發現有些問題啦下一頁嘛"},{"start":17052.877,"end":17078.118,"text":"下一頁這個第一個譬如說像這個有人通報他叫酷炫老頭久轉功成非富即貴有人去通報那目前沒有辦法給正確答案只告知說是疑似詐騙訊息那我的助理實際上他就去測試了一下就是加入了這個LINE那就可以看得出來他這個他的頁面你進去之後"},{"start":17079.438,"end":17107.006,"text":"裡面的人管理員就會通知加入的人要加入另外一個LINE的群組那加入到另外一個LINE的群組呢那你就知道啦可能就是會進行一些投資的行為嘛就是很傳統的詐騙方式那我不知道說為什麼像這一種很明顯的詐騙的模式在網友通報之後到目前為止顯示的都是疑似沒有辦法給一個很確定的答案是為什麼"},{"start":17107.766,"end":17134.433,"text":"跟委員報告我們對於網路的詐騙我們是深惡痛絕我想這是我們全台灣所有人的共識但是台灣也是一個自由民主法治的國家那如果我們要通知一個社群媒體平台把一個訊息移除的話我們一定要有法源的依據那就如同剛才那個委員所顯示的畫面上當然一樣的資訊或者是說你加入他的群組要求你加入另外一個群組我們並不能判斷他是詐騙"},{"start":17135.433,"end":17163.185,"text":"那這件事情怎麼樣才能夠判斷這個要法源依據你設定了一個平台然後大家來使用然後你說說因為要很多困難沒辦法判斷那怎麼樣才能判斷我們這個機制就是說我們收到這個通報有像這樣的那個案件我們會不會交給內政部警政署所以接下來你們交給警政署去查是不是對 他們要做判斷要有法源依據那現在是他在查詢當中還是怎麼樣"},{"start":17164.245,"end":17177.24,"text":"因為這邊你們的進度4月29號11點鐘是說以通知速發部確認中那速發部這邊就是會通知警政署所以警察正在辦這個案子是不是要等到警政署確認這個是詐騙"},{"start":17178.902,"end":17199.404,"text":"才會回報到這個平台然後做出正確答案是這個還在流程當中嗎對因為這個東西他們後續到相關部會相關部會會針對相關的內容去做一些掐耳因為有些時候這到底是詐騙還是人家在分析服務社通常時間需要多久譬如說就以這個酷炫老頭的案例來講通常需要多久從4月29號查到這個個案"},{"start":17201.446,"end":17221.781,"text":"到你們通報警政署警政署查完回報給你們然後有一個明確答案通常需要多久我們大概大概原則大概在一天以內要盡量處理這些事一天可是從4月29今天5月1號已經超過一天了沒有因為有些東西他還是要去做一些確認基本上因為有些東西要判我剛剛問你說通常需要幾天嘛你說一天嘛"},{"start":17222.341,"end":17236.951,"text":"然後所以現在我才告訴你說現在已經兩天了跟委員報告我們會依照這個案那個通報他的那個危險性他的風險性去做排序我們處理那個高風險因為我後面還有加個案這個案子麻煩你確認之後"},{"start":17239.552,"end":17265.447,"text":"回我辦公室一下就這個案子既然是委員問的話那我想了解說到底你們需要幾天還有他的流程到底是什麼這是第一個個案第二個個案也有人通報一個叫做今日爆牌台中那最後的結論是說本訊息缺乏足夠資訊便是詐騙與否那當然啦因為按照速發部的判斷詐騙應該是指說他爆牌給你然後最後把你錢騙光了這個叫做詐騙嘛"},{"start":17266.748,"end":17282.145,"text":"那也許你還在查詢當中你沒辦法確認說他是不是詐騙可是這個很明顯就是違反其他的法律啊譬如說他可能就違反政交法通常你不能隨便在網路上跟人家爆牌對吧可以嗎 可以隨便在網路上跟人家爆牌嗎"},{"start":17283.106,"end":17298.323,"text":"那個我們是在查詐騙這個違法我知道我知道我知道但是這個行為基本上是違法的嘛所以我現在就是跟部長請教你們假設有人通報了一個最後判斷說你判斷不是詐騙但是他有違法行為你們會把這個東西轉給相關機構去查嗎"},{"start":17301.767,"end":17318.753,"text":"就是遇到這個我們就會傳給那個就是金管會所以金管會如果金管會會去做後續的追蹤金管會會去後續那請教一下那金管會最後查的結果會不會再回報給你們然後你們會顯示在這個網頁上面還是說他就是一直說本訊息缺乏足夠資訊辨識詐騙"},{"start":17321.154,"end":17347.056,"text":"報告委員其實這部分來講這就是為什麼我們要必須後台交給相關部會第一個我們通知那個部會說有這個東西那他知道因為可能因為我們只處理詐騙的事情但是可能這個東西會涉及到其他相關的法規他知道之後他會依照他的權責去處理另外一個就是說我們在這裡面如果說不是詐騙我們也會秀出說這可能是高度風險有多了這樣的level來去警示我現在的建議是這樣子啦"},{"start":17348.638,"end":17363.156,"text":"雖然說你們單位是打詐這個網站是打詐但實際上人家來舉報假設有不罰行為我覺得也是要告訴民眾所以你現在發文給金管會金管署如果確定說這是違法行為那最後回你們你們應該在右上角顯示一下"},{"start":17363.939,"end":17380.378,"text":"無法比如說你說缺乏足夠資訊便是詐騙與否但是明顯違反政交法請小心所以應該是這樣子嘛你今天花了幾千萬接近六千萬做了一個平台然後一副就是好像沒要沒勁的感覺剛剛委員報告委員的那個建議非常好我們往這個方向努力"},{"start":17380.959,"end":17397.513,"text":"但是也必須跟委員報告等一下你等一下一起報告啦好再來這個一樣日本澳田製藥株式會社這個療效真的超厲害的三天消除耳鳴十天就可以恢復聽力然後立刻就可以扔掉助聽器正常溝通"},{"start":17398.534,"end":17417.439,"text":"這一看你不覺得很有問題嗎所以我們給衛福部去對然後但是因為你們秀出來的等一下你們秀出來的還是一樣本訊息缺乏足夠資訊辨識詐騙與否還是一樣那你們現在通知衛福部確認當中嘛然後最後你結案了結案就是本訊息經衛福部檢視人缺乏足夠資訊辨識詐騙與否"},{"start":17419.139,"end":17445.654,"text":"哇那人家看到之後這不是詐騙就去買啦但其實這個問題很大為什麼因為你真的相信他那麼厲害三十天以後耳鳴現象完全消失然後我去查了相關因為這個案子這個藥品呢他是在福建我們也去看了他的網站的位置是在福建那因為你現在你未服務並沒有做一個什麼廣告不實或違反醫藥法的裁定對不對可是我們看了之前的相關的別的藥的"},{"start":17446.815,"end":17472.287,"text":"別的要的這個一樣類似的東西他這邊就寫說涉嫌違規宣稱詞句七天消除耳鳴三十天恢復聽就跟剛剛那個一模一樣可以拔掉註定句這個東西已經被衛福部認為是違反食安法的第28條的規定涉嫌廣告違規所以同樣的樣態之前被罰過可是現在民眾在檢舉這件事情的時候你說本訊息缺乏訊我們缺乏資訊便是詐騙與否"},{"start":17474.778,"end":17493.147,"text":"那你不就是等於變相在幫這個東西背書嗎所以你應該叫衛福部查完之後假設他有違反了廣告樣態或是1號法的話你要秀出來啦你不是變相在幫這個違規的東西在背書啦等一下一起後面還有"},{"start":17495.117,"end":17514.475,"text":"很多啦像這個是有人在檢舉台積電慈善基金會的檢舉完之後已經確定是確定是詐騙人但是網站依然存在後面一樣的這個是晴雨航空說被詐騙然後就通知本人右邊是黃仁勳被詐騙通知本人就沒有"},{"start":17514.955,"end":17532.104,"text":"沒有結論啊最後最後最後如果他回應的話我們會馬上會顯示那當然是因為黃仁勳他本身他非常忙所以他不見得他的幕僚會馬上回覆好那個比較delay抱歉剛剛的建議希望希望因為你們現在這個還測試中可是你花很多錢六千萬"},{"start":17533.052,"end":17553.372,"text":"你要做不好意思我還沒有問題你要做大家的窗口嘛人家覺得有疑問的就來問然後你就本位主義這個疑似詐騙會不能確定然後就沒了問完之後最後要給個答案他到底違反什麼法違反要釋法違反什麼告訴人家不要幫這些疑似詐騙背書然後最後我一個建議啦"},{"start":17555.563,"end":17571.424,"text":"之前我有在別的地方問過你們蘇巴布因為網路上有很多類似毒品的社團比如說這個伊托彌子這個就最近查到的那你們既然可以做一個平台讓人家去辨識說是不是詐騙那為什麼不能做一個平台讓人家檢舉這些毒品"},{"start":17572.825,"end":17596.949,"text":"為什麼不行呢毒品這個事情是大家深惡痛絕尤其是依托民脂現在造成社會很多問題很多人都是這個叫殭屍煙彈嘛很多吸了這個毒之後毒架很多員警因此這樣還因此這樣傷命那麼嚴重的事情蘇發部為什麼不能類似打詐做一個平台以後只要有看到毒品大家就可以來檢舉嘛幫大家減少那個毒品的問題嘛我們委員今天很好但是另外請委員支持我們的預算"},{"start":17597.509,"end":17622.988,"text":"沒問題啊但是你要做事啊剛剛你花六千萬做這個網站做的問題那麼多然後一天到晚跟人家要錢要了錢之後然後執行率那麼差你要把你的本分做好嘛我們當然都是支持嘛對不對 剛剛我在問問題的時候其實我們是舉很多問題給你們讓你們來討論然後就會一直辯解一些不相關的東西我們願意支持預算但是請你們把這東西做好好不好 謝謝"},{"start":17624.821,"end":17626.822,"text":"好謝謝我們葉言之委員現在請游浩委員執行謝謝召委那有請部長還有NCC代理主委黃部長陳主委"},{"start":17657.785,"end":17685.683,"text":"好 部長主委好那個是剛才其實在有關於這個議價法的部分媒體議價法的部分其實大家討論的非常多那本席還是想要接著請教一下其實在行政院在110年整理了大型數位平台及新聞媒體共同發展小組三年僅開六次會那跨部會協調但是到最後這個整體的進度來講其實幾乎都是停擺那三年六次會啊其實幾乎都從上一屆跨到這一屆"},{"start":17686.443,"end":17703.126,"text":"那其實在目前來講的話媒體其實也非常重視這個一家法的一個進度那我是想要因為剛剛很多都問部長那我想問一下代理主委那像現在這樣子行政院的這個公共方案小組三零六次會那這個進度如何能夠有願望能夠產生"},{"start":17704.717,"end":17732.432,"text":"公園報告在行政院有列定說各個部會的分工NCC當時被分配到的任務是做產業調查我們產業調查結果在111年有完成後來數位部召集了三輪八場會議我們也有請衛星工會跟電視學會去參與跟他們共同對話這一部分都有持續在關注"},{"start":17733.035,"end":17744.274,"text":"那所以說目前來講NCC也是對於就是這個媒體議價法也是樂觀其成嗎是 我們是樂觀其成好 那請教部長那行政院版預計什麼時候能夠提出"},{"start":17745.305,"end":17774.501,"text":"就是包委員我們現在就是說現在有三種方法那我們現在就是因為三華都不是很完整不是在現在情況都有他的問題所以我們還在評估但是我們當然希望盡快那我們先等這一次這個有關於這個我們這個關稅的問題過了以後我們再跟再看國際的發展再跟各個單位來討論當然也希望能夠有一個共識之後我們提出行政院版本"},{"start":17774.801,"end":17801.045,"text":"但希望是盡快 但盡快可能就是就是今年下半期因為本席還是認為這麼重要的一個法案其實我相信不管是數位平台的使用業者包括媒體業者甚至百姓或是限販到限販到著作權的許多層面的人那非常的期待這個能夠早日來看到行政院版那國民黨的版本也有提出那像今天有提出的許多的版本"},{"start":17801.625,"end":17823.656,"text":"那我就不論到底部長您支持哪個版本但是我覺得比較急迫的是應該是大家期待看到院的版本那如果說以像目前來講我們可以看到在澳洲的這個部分啊我們來講一下澳洲的例子他那時候其實政府的態度是非常堅定的因為包括在Google for Meta他一度揚言退出嘛"},{"start":17824.136,"end":17842.902,"text":"但是那時候澳洲他其實還是採緊立場那所以到時候這個法案不僅是有通過而且順利實施那因為回頭來講其實政府的老闆還是國民那如果說傷害到大家權利的話其實政府一定要硬起來所以我相信國民也是會支持"},{"start":17843.522,"end":17864.614,"text":"那所以說今天來講在看到澳洲的例子那他們不管是在這個已經實施上路那我在想今天來講我們在速發部這邊那不管是他有提到如果說以澳洲的話是比較市場力模式或是歐盟的話是諸多權模式的話那其實討論到現在已經非常久了"},{"start":17865.094,"end":17889.724,"text":"那如果說是因為關稅的部分來講也差不多就是六七月談判都會有一個結果但是我相信研擬的過程其實都應該遭有雛形那所以說是不是其實已經有草案的版本跟委員報告其實這個事情的轉折並不是因為最近的這個關關稅的談判的問題而是在去年的五月那去年五月因為"},{"start":17891.485,"end":17913.121,"text":"加拿大在通過那個Online News Act那個媒體溢價法之後那個Meta決定說退出這個市場他把那個在加拿大臉書上面所有關於新聞的連結通通移除了那他既然已經移除了所以那個媒體溢價法就不適用於他結果呢那個加拿大的媒體本來就已經收不到錢了結果因為他現在在"},{"start":17913.601,"end":17936.997,"text":"在加拿大的臉書上面完全不能轉貼任何的新聞所以加拿大的新聞媒體又失去了他們的流量所以變成說他們的狀況非常不好所以才會說那個經濟學人雜誌在去年的五月出了那個兩篇的文章就講這個事情說加拿大政府推行媒體溢價法原本是要幫那個媒體結果反倒是傷害到了加拿大的媒體"},{"start":17937.817,"end":17961.504,"text":"這個是這件事情事實上是整件事情的一個轉折在那之前的確我們在台灣我們的媒體我們很多公聽會我們好像都有一個那個共識我們要朝著那個媒體議價法的方向去就推行了可是因為發生這個事情所以我們會現在會覺得說會擔心說這個媒體議價法到底是不是有效那我們這個我們覺得說我們還必須要商榷好以上說明謝謝那志展"},{"start":17962.324,"end":17985.754,"text":"本期還是在這邊還是再次說明當然說今天你舉的這個例子啊會讓大家是我就是會感到擔心要不要往前進行啊但是事實上的話以澳洲那時候其實他們也曾經面對這樣的風險那但是他們還是踩緊立場因為是站在人民的角度跟媒體的角度所以本期還是認為說今天推動的情況如何草案其實還是要有而且草案其實要提出來"},{"start":17986.394,"end":18011.419,"text":"那我相信這個是不斷的跟他們去做一個談判或協商的過程但是至少來講我覺得該有一個版本讓社會大眾都能夠清楚而且能夠來進行討論我相信這會是在不管是抒發部或是行政院或是最務實的可以讓民眾看得到的做法我們持續會跟委員溝通然後跟社會大眾做溝通然後找出一個最有效的方法來推動這樣的一個事情好 OK 謝謝"},{"start":18013.931,"end":18018.516,"text":"謝謝游浩委員現在請林柱英委員執行謝謝主席主席有請數位部部長好 數位部黃部長"},{"start":18037.53,"end":18063.899,"text":"次長如果 林次長如果有需要補充也可以一起上台沒問題林次長部長好我想本席是在上一屆2020年擔任立委之後就提出了有關於媒體一家法我想當時的緣由您在報告上面也寫得非常清楚就是2021年澳洲再加上2023年開始就是有關於大型的平台在使用新聞上面的這個所謂使用者付費的部分但是我們知道時間來到2025年"},{"start":18065.58,"end":18082.117,"text":"很多的狀況都已經跟我們現實當時所提出來的法案已經完全不一樣包括現在AI成為這個網路世界尤其是AI生成當中我相信它已經所延伸的問題恐怕更甚於媒體溢價法那麼"},{"start":18082.697,"end":18097.022,"text":"我想要請問的就是其實隨著時間的演進包括今天主席我相信他們也都是非常關注今天的題目那麼到底我們跟實際的媒體業者進行了哪些溝通因為就像報告所提出來的"},{"start":18097.902,"end":18123.167,"text":"就是現在不論是澳洲或者是其他國家因為在使用媒體溢價法之後也被這個所謂大型的平台不論是Meta或者是Google進行了所謂的報復也就是說他們乾脆直接就是下價或者是不導流那我相信媒體跟溢所謂平台之間是一種共生共好的關係那是最好的"},{"start":18123.647,"end":18153.327,"text":"那麼在台灣的話台灣的媒體目前對於類似媒體議價法或者是真的有一個所謂的平台來協助議價他們最新的想法跟看法又是什麼呢當然我相信現場也有文化部也有所謂的這個國科會等等但是現在主責是數位部的話我就來請問一下到底在近期內跟媒體之間的溝通有多少"},{"start":18153.727,"end":18177.034,"text":"那麼媒體他們認為現在需要的真的還是溢價法嗎還是更先進的就是剛剛有我們本院的委員所提到的著作連結權相關的法案又或者是說他必須併到另外更廣更大的AI相關的基本法等等因為我要因為我時間有限所以我最後再請"},{"start":18178.274,"end":18198.74,"text":"科技部來回應就是目前其實最有可數位部來回應就是其實目前對媒體來說他們所面對的一個實質的狀況就是當我們使用AI你把幾篇新聞輸入進去之後只要30秒它生成另外一篇根本"},{"start":18199.64,"end":18217.691,"text":"完全不一樣的文章平台根本完全已經不需要去透過連結link的方式去使用這些媒體言下之意我們當然原本利益良善的是希望創建一個平台協助業者跟"},{"start":18218.772,"end":18240.245,"text":"社群平台來做溝通但現在產生第三者也就是ChatGP之類的AI的時候那這變成是一個三方的問題請問數位部有考量到嗎那麼有更先進的法規或法律在做研擬嗎否則等到又一樣過了五年之後我們的立法又落後了"},{"start":18241.224,"end":18255.824,"text":"部長那個委員分析的很好確實確實新的技術出現改變我們當初對媒體溢價法的看法那我從上任之後有公協會來找我也有學者跟他們來找我就對這個議題表示不同看法"},{"start":18256.425,"end":18276.566,"text":"那當然就是說在討論過程中當然大部分人當初還是主張認為還是用媒體強迫溢價法那我們也朝著後面去做很多的研究那也去觀察國際的發展的趨勢才會有今天的這樣的一個態度就是說我們發現媒體強迫溢價法在有些國家實施之後並沒有達到當初想要實行的效果"},{"start":18277.006,"end":18295.425,"text":"那當然這個著作臨接權是一種因為因為應付AI的產生是一個方法但是那牽涉到更複雜的這個所謂修法跟那個所以我們當然是希望能夠整合像剛剛講著作臨接權就著作權法的的那個修法然後再加上也許一些基金共融但這個還需要再討論但是這個還需要跟"},{"start":18297.347,"end":18311.477,"text":"大院還有跟一般的所謂的民眾來這個業者來溝通當然也要跟這個平台業者來溝通希望找出一個大家能夠同意然後能夠共榮的一個方案讓這個事情能夠所謂新聞有家這事情能夠落實"},{"start":18312.618,"end":18337.674,"text":"這是我們現在的一個在在在評估但我們但是希望盡快了所以但因為現在是稍微受到這個剛講這個關稅的影響我們覺得這個時間點去提出任何東西可能會影響到關稅的談判但是只要這個結束以後我們會再看再跟再看用什麼樣方式來提出最有效對我們新聞媒體最有效方法來解決我們現在所謂新聞有價的這個問題"},{"start":18338.752,"end":18361.321,"text":"好 所以本席要提醒的就是我們立的法絕對要走在前面如果說現在也沒提議價法我實話實說我自己沒提出來的它現在已經落後了所以在這樣的概念裡面要把新的狀況也要放進去這樣才不要說立一個法擺在那裡大家浪費了時間但是其實它可能法規根本用不到"},{"start":18361.821,"end":18383.061,"text":"那這個才是沒有辦法解決問題而不符合現在實際所應應的狀況但是本席還是同意就是必須要在一定的時間之內而且必須要回應媒體的需求然後也要能夠結合現在我們整體的不論是網路又或者是整個時代的潮流好 謝謝委員建議 謝謝"},{"start":18385.284,"end":18400.868,"text":"謝謝林楚英委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在王美惠 王美惠 王美惠委員不在吳思瑤 吳思瑤 吳思瑤委員不在習新穎 習新穎 習新穎委員不在現在請蔡依瑜委員執行"},{"start":18418.174,"end":18445.79,"text":"謝謝主席 那我們是有請抒發部部長好 抒發部黃部長好 部長最近基隆有爆發一個濫用個資而且是由政府機關濫用個資政府民政處處長竟然可以在自己調用個人的戶政資料然後來協助罷免"},{"start":18447.062,"end":18467.911,"text":"那當然這個涉及到了很多層次的問題內政部這個各自的一個互證資料怎麼會被這樣調用但是我還有想到一個問題就是說我們個人的資訊如果被查詢那我們個人有辦法知道嗎這件事情就是說政府的資訊公開有可能"},{"start":18468.499,"end":18493.601,"text":"在我們速發部的一個整理之下哪些訊息可以適度的讓個人知道這件事情我想請教部長你覺得技術上我們來研發讓個人可以知道我的資訊被公開比方說我被戶政系統查詢了一個月後至少給我知道我被查詢了幾次誰查詢我我倒還其次喔我被查詢了幾次這件事情我就公開"},{"start":18494.281,"end":18519.683,"text":"查詢這個系統在查詢應該都有所謂的log現在只是說這個log要不要我想是這樣就是說這個東西的管理現在有個個資會然後就有要個資會是在行政院的層級的個人資料委員會但是個資會他都在管理的層次我現在是講說我在個人上我想要知道"},{"start":18520.578,"end":18549.377,"text":"我的個人資料被查詢了被查詢了幾次我覺得樹化部你可以去思考因為我知道我們樹化部最近做了蠻多比方說我們的簡訊111簡訊嘛那可以讓人民清楚的知道說這個是政府簡訊是官方的簡訊並不是來自於說其他一些莫名其妙的簡訊這樹化部有做這樣的事情那我從這一次基隆的事件中事實上很多人去告訴我說外戶證資料或者是我的健保資料"},{"start":18550.979,"end":18559.776,"text":"他人查詢了好查詢我的目的有很多有可能基於犯罪有可能基於一些國安但是像這樣子一個違法查詢"},{"start":18562.413,"end":18582.57,"text":"對那個包括委員就是我們蘇阿波可以協助各支會訂定一個統一的機制你剛剛講說技術上都可行技術上是對就是我們需要一個機制去做這個的分析跟調查然後能夠做通報那這個我們會跟各支會來一起討論就是說看怎麼樣去進行這樣的一件事情"},{"start":18584.063,"end":18597.84,"text":"至少個人資料我可以了解一下最近好像有人很平於去查詢我甚至說健保資料之外還有一個我們的信用徵信資料"},{"start":18598.761,"end":18619.418,"text":"信用徵信資料 那現在的信用徵信我想跟部長說啦 事實上也是不方便的我們現在要查詢自己的聯合徵信我們得寄信到聯合徵信中心然後可能要等他作業都超過一個禮拜的時間他才會寄給你說你的徵信的一個狀況事實上以現在我想整個科技然後整個數位發展的一個狀況"},{"start":18620.439,"end":18647.047,"text":"我應該是不是這部分也應該來督促說像這樣的聯合徵信中心你應該要可以用線上查詢然後我可以線上就可以馬上得到我自己個人的一個徵信資料那我知道我的徵信資料我要去銀行辦貸款還是怎樣當然是相對會比較方便我覺得數劃部這部分是不是也可以來做一個我想我們會跟各自委員會來討論這個事情要訂一個統一的機制讓很多資料個人資料能夠個人管理然後能夠被通報這樣好"},{"start":18648.127,"end":18668.769,"text":"就是說因為我覺得基隆這個事情來說我覺得侵害個人權利啦所以個人應該對於我自己資料使用取得甚至有他人刺探我的資料這件事情我個人應該要有權利要知道部分的一個狀況好不好我們會跟各自委員會來聊好那就請部長再研究好謝謝"},{"start":18670.32,"end":18690.258,"text":"好 謝謝蔡育儀委員翁曉琳 翁曉琳 翁曉琳委員不在鄭振前 鄭振前 鄭振前委員不在王航威 王航威 王航威委員不在蘇清前 蘇清前 蘇清前委員不在好"},{"start":18694.312,"end":18719.054,"text":"好 登記執行委員經已發言完畢 作以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員張雅玲 萬美玲 柯智恩 黃建豪 劉書斌 翁曉琳 林國成首提書面執行列入記錄 並刊登公報"},{"start":18719.975,"end":18732.342,"text":"委員以執行中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請數位部及相關機關儘速以書面答醒"},{"start":18734.898,"end":18753.977,"text":"針對本提案立法行政產業界等立法銜接的問題為求完善本席則其召開公聽會起最大立法制共識行之本日會議以下結議討論四項個案"},{"start":18757.435,"end":18766.118,"text":"今令定期繼續細查本日會議結束上會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16641","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16641","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a68562c05bd4558c4086ce1f9dc46489d24114bfadd538e1bbbf29487090ad40d8725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅詢答】\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-01","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-01T08:31:00+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-01T13:27:00+08:00","duration":17760,"影片長度":"04:56:00","委員發言時間":"08:31:00 - 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其以條文僅為部分文字及配合實務運作修正無影響執行上的成效"},{"start":2029.092,"end":2042.973,"text":"2.有關劉建國等16人女巨病人自主遣議法部分條文修正草案本部意見說明如下1.有關立委所提出第9條第一項第一款修正草案列議"},{"start":2044.555,"end":2068.86,"text":"經主管機關核准之護理機構、長照機構、心理治療所、心理諮商所、社會工作室事務所及法人得提供預立醫療照護諮商經一位醫師診斷符合默契或中央主管機關公告第十四條第一項第五款疾病之病人的病人得豁免"},{"start":2070.42,"end":2088.256,"text":"預立醫療照護智商監察上開機構其設置標準及人臉配置上無醫師等醫事服務提供者要查病人自治權益法第八條第一項規定列以據完全行為能力之人得訂定預立醫療決定"},{"start":2090.714,"end":2097.768,"text":"已經醫師診斷符合特定臨床條件之病人的豁免諮商流程是有抵觸之餘二"},{"start":2101.141,"end":2128.617,"text":"有關立委所提第十二條第二項修正草案內容醫院人之預歷醫療決定得由醫院人上傳網路版預歷醫療決定書於中央主管機關之資料庫網路版預歷醫療決定書應經預歷醫療照顧諮商提供機構數位簽章以符合第九條第一項第一款之合張證明規定"},{"start":2131.095,"end":2134.938,"text":"為確保醫院人權利以減少爭議諮商過程應由專業諮商團隊執行以醫療機構做成記錄並經醫院人"},{"start":2142.065,"end":2168.461,"text":"至醫院人及參與者簽名後,並同病例保存3.有關立委所提第16條之一及第二項修正草案內容有關益利醫療照顧至少所需醫療服務費用因爲中央主管機關編列預算支應以及有關病人符合特定臨床條件之確認程序與病人接受緩和醫療及其他"},{"start":2169.721,"end":2170.381,"text":"有關邱智瑋"},{"start":2196.75,"end":2212.298,"text":"等十九人擬計,並然自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案本部意見說明如下1.有關立委所提第八條第一項修正草案內容,具意識能力之成人"},{"start":2213.118,"end":2231.574,"text":"得為毅力醫療決定並得隨時以書面撤回或變更之考量具意識能力之成員人用詞可能導致解釋不明確原建議為此具完全行為能力之人用詞二有關立委所提議"},{"start":2232.537,"end":2250.454,"text":"第八條第二項修正草案內容預立醫療決定應包括醫院人於第十四條特定臨床條件時終止措施或不施行維持生命治療或人工營養及流體餵養之前部或一部"},{"start":2251.275,"end":2279.182,"text":"查醫院人為預例醫療決定,得選擇當其處於特定臨床條件時接受或拒絕維持生命治療與人工營養及流體餵養,原建議維持原名詞3.有關立委所提第九條第一項修正草案內容醫院人為預例醫療決定應符合經醫療機構提供預例醫療教護諮商或經公證人公證"},{"start":2280.442,"end":2303.153,"text":"或有具完全行為能力者二人以上在場見證之規定預立醫療決定簽署期經預立醫療照護諮商過程且由醫療機構合張證明公證人公證或具完全行為能力者二人以上在場見證以及註記於全民健康保險憑證堂衛經上接程序"},{"start":2305.754,"end":2314.088,"text":"恐無法確保醫院人系出於自願簽署,且充分理解醫療結果及法律效力。"},{"start":2316.058,"end":2337.823,"text":"有關立委所提第9條第2項修正草案列明醫院人為立立醫療決定,得註記於全民健康保險憑證該註記之效率與書面相同,但醫院人依前條以書面撤回或變更時以書面為準查病人自主權利法第12條第3項"},{"start":2339.984,"end":2355.959,"text":"經注記於全民健康保險憑證之預歷醫療決定以醫院人臨床醫療過程中書面明示之意思表示不一致時應完成變更預歷醫療決定談醫院人未及時更新預歷醫療決定之注記醫療結構機構可能"},{"start":2361.499,"end":2390.295,"text":"依據變更前意願執行醫療行為,恐違反醫院人之意願。4.結餘未落實以病人為中心的照護理念,本部持續推動病人自主潛力法,包括推動醫療機構設置育立醫療照護諮商門診,以建立諮商機制,培訓醫療專業人員,以及提升民眾簽署育立醫療決定意願等措施,以及逐步提升社會對於自立"},{"start":2391.363,"end":2416.471,"text":"對於阻止醫療決策之適能與支持有關所提修正條文草案應涉及病人預立醫療意願之適用對象程序與費用支應等多方面向應是各界達成共識及實務運作更需完備再行通盤檢討修正原本部建議現階段為止現行條文"},{"start":2418.991,"end":2444.322,"text":"本部曾大院各委員之指教及監督,在此敬致謝誠,並其各位委員繼續予以支持。以上報告,謝謝。好,謝謝部長。第一次聽部長在報告,有點嘎吱嘎吱。等一下在這邊宣告,提案委員有來的時候,還是會讓他來做提案說明,跟各位委員做這樣的一個說明。"},{"start":2445.031,"end":2473.72,"text":"那第二個我還是提醒衛福部你們這個兩位委員三位委員總共提了十幾個條要修正你們只有針對部分來去做回應然後最後最後也沒有看到你們到底是是全部都反對還是怎麼樣也講不清楚包含你回我的部分我只是提醒你的第一項一面就已經很奇怪了把兩件不相干的事情放在一塊那凸顯你們真的是非常的不專業小心一點好"},{"start":2475.485,"end":2499.464,"text":"現在有關於本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在開始宣導做一下宣告本會委員宣導時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10年半截止發言登記委員如果有書面質詢請於3月前提出預期不受理暫定10年半休息10分鐘那依往例審查法案不處理臨時提案現在請第一位登記第一位委員陳昭之委員來做發言"},{"start":2504.843,"end":2505.649,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩邱部長"},{"start":2511.184,"end":2540.219,"text":"吳院長今天是五一勞動節所以我還是想跟部長您討論一下醫護這個勞動權益的問題龍頭醫院台大醫院你我都服務過的醫院吳院長他還蠻喜歡公開評論時事所以我想以他帶領龍頭醫院加上他這個特質我認為他應該要對自己要求這個自我要求是要更高的你同意吧龍頭醫院然後他也會關心其他的事情"},{"start":2540.979,"end":2556.313,"text":"但是台大公寓的七月公會剛會這個禮拜四月二十八號揭露台大院的荒唐行徑他在這個五月一號的這個假班別的一個議院調查表他只給護理人員兩個選項喔柏中這都很清楚你看到沒有"},{"start":2561.077,"end":2576.246,"text":"你現在看兩個選項而已,同意到院工作後調一,國定假日,第二個同意到院工作後領加班費這是依法要休假一整天,當天不上班的選項沒了,不見了,它只有兩個選項"},{"start":2580.228,"end":2595.391,"text":"一個非常清楚的事實台大醫院看似在徵詢醫院那事實上是已經徵詢就是同仁的意願但事實上已經設計好了不管你勾哪一項你那天就是得來一定要出勤部長你覺得這樣做可以嗎"},{"start":2596.172,"end":2614.678,"text":"高委員謝謝委員非常關心我們這種勞動的權益我想也不只臺大啦全國所有的醫療...沒有啦臺大是龍頭我們先聽著臺大都要做啦有關這點臺大有解說就是說這是針對來五一那天上班的人給他們簽你是要選擇"},{"start":2619.599,"end":2631.323,"text":"我告訴你台大企業工會 工會 他們做的調查77點多就超過四分之三的人說他們根本沒有備心諮詢就直接排定了我給你做參考"},{"start":2633.344,"end":2655.132,"text":"這個是臺大醫院說法 但事實上可能就不是如此博定還是請你要注意一下 雖然好像說臺大醫院是屬於教育部管不過我想衛福部也是您到督導的對象博定他這個預立醫組這個醫療決定推動到現在 您知道那個簽署率有多高嗎簽署率有多少嗎大概千分之1.31"},{"start":2657.192,"end":2668.699,"text":"簽分之1.31 柏定拜託 高板櫃再不到百分之一 又簽分之幾統計學就是沒有嘛 等於沒有人簽嘛我大概可以這麼講 柏定你有簽嗎我有簽安寧環和醫療但病毒法沒有我覺得我們的意願都很清楚 已經可以表達了在安寧環和醫療法因為法推出以後就是鼓勵嘛"},{"start":2685.809,"end":2705.327,"text":"鼓勵後我們還是會看一下數字啦這也不是對錯的問題嘛每個人都是這間排審的三個版本他當然主要在經費之應場域放寬還有代理人的一個這個限制調整也許大家不太一樣不過我覺得方向是整個是正確的那就是要尊重這個意願人他自主權但是我也要提醒這個衛福部"},{"start":2706.408,"end":2713.794,"text":"就是說你們對於這個所有醫護跟相關學會的意見要要稍微去多多徵詢你知道以前的爭議點在哪裡嗎以前的爭議點對爭議點在什麼地方爭議點是在哪裡"},{"start":2727.082,"end":2733.505,"text":"因為他的爭議點很多,病人自治權法案那個時候當時應該是蘇昭偉那個時代在推,但是我在學界應該也對這個法有相關的隱瞞因為爭議點是醫師說進戶總接任,轉嫁給醫師,就是醫師背負太多的責任"},{"start":2750.111,"end":2777.709,"text":"爭議點那這個東西就是找醫護人員找他們來一起討論嘛怎麼樣讓他們就覺得是相對是讓他們願意做這樣的事情配合這個政策但是又不是說你責任最後都丟給我其實爭議點就是這個啦民眾黨我們期待的是有這個病毒法還要一個尊嚴善終法才能夠完善這個善終權那因為病毒法保障的是無效醫療嘛可以拒絕無效醫療那自然善終一個選擇"},{"start":2778.61,"end":2800.912,"text":"但是尊嚴善終是進一步讓極度痛苦的人透過嚴謹的程序然後他可以這個做自主來選擇他比較有尊嚴有體面的方式來結束生命兩者是一個互補就是可以完善一個生命自主跟尊嚴死亡那這是一個現代的價值這個衛福部現在好像都不想面對這個問題"},{"start":2803.126,"end":2825.995,"text":"報告委員我們不管是衛福部的各個單位跟學界跟相關的委員會始終在面對這個問題不是沒有面對這個問題博不丁我是要跟你提起遲早要面對因為所有的民調大概有七八成的民眾台灣民眾是支持這個法案的但這個法案怎麼寫我知道要很小心很謹慎但是我跟博不丁這樣說博不丁賴總統4月27日出席健康台灣全國論壇提了很多見解"},{"start":2831.597,"end":2852.288,"text":"當天也在場,所以我想你應該都很清楚那我賴總統有表達,政府提出這個癌藥基金100億元那他先編列50億元但並不是100億元用完就結束,不夠了就補上去隔年再補這樣,讓這個水庫可以保持一定水平那我想提醒部長"},{"start":2853.849,"end":2870.78,"text":"百億癌藥基金是個中繼站的概念你不知道中繼站過去的意思就是病人要團體期待然後去參觀其他國家的做法就是有一些加速審查的藥品他可能還沒有完全確定但是有些病人他有需求"},{"start":2871.4,"end":2899.732,"text":"所以他讓這個中繼站能夠暫時性的支付這類的藥品目前健保署還沒有改口雖然我們有很多已經確定療效的安全性的都沒有付滿付足但是這一塊本來是要做這個部分它是一個中繼站的概念你看賴總統也是用水庫的概念水庫本來水就是進進出出的那就是要加速通過藥來用那既然是中繼站的話真正的問題是新藥經過開放性使用用這筆錢"},{"start":2901.521,"end":2921.268,"text":"那之後要評估嘛因為你暫時性使用那目前大概都兩年嘛署長沒有改變大概兩年後評估嘛那兩年後評估有三個結果柏中你要聽得很清楚你這個你日理千機吧賴總統日理萬機你日理千機百機你也是要清楚這件事那時署長要非常清楚因為他在執行這件事情"},{"start":2922.208,"end":2939.623,"text":"你現在兩年後 結果會有三個評估以後 一個淘汰出局就這個 因為在加速生產那個經不起考驗淘汰第二個 我們覺得時間不夠 要繼續觀察第三個 他同意了 我們覺得他的療程安全都確定了所以我們要把它回歸到正常的使用"},{"start":2941.577,"end":2964.068,"text":"這有三條路可以走不然我是要說的癌藥不斷的在研發需求也會增加百億如何分配我到現在看不到用完怎麼辦因為賴總統我覺得他不能理解很深入的是ok的因為日理萬機賴總統意思好像好像預期會有勝他先用多少不夠我再補他預期會有勝那部長你也會認為有勝嗎"},{"start":2968.57,"end":2994.116,"text":"我有我的資深專業的那個經驗30年前告訴你 保留癌症病人絕對會面臨另外一個噩夢因為錢是不夠用的不夠用大概要讓這個滿足這一塊 幾百億都不夠那最後會怎麼樣呢 維持現況現況是什麼 就是不人道的方式你限制癌症病人使用的對象變得很小很窄然後限制他使用次數跟時間"},{"start":2995.876,"end":3020.472,"text":"那這個這麼多先生這是第一個到最後回到現在的噩夢這個事情我可以確定是這樣第二個當剛剛我跟你說明過當挑選後經過評估因為要評估暫時中繼站那你要進進出出到哪個地方去根據美國的經驗繼續使用就是說確定療效大概有六成他沒有經驗所以我們先用美國的經驗有兩成大概淘汰還有兩成他大概說我們要更長時間的觀察那有這兩個事情在前提那我請問部長"},{"start":3025.196,"end":3031.094,"text":"這個衛福部有規劃那個中長期的裁員嗎還是說你想說先擋個兩年拖個兩年再說呢"},{"start":3033.414,"end":3047.279,"text":"包委員真的非常敬佩您指教這麼多專業的一個做法我相信對未來在處理心療癌症這個預算能夠有很大的幫助但是我必須要講賴總統絕對存著就是希望希望說真的病人需要癌藥的時候我們就是想盡辦法"},{"start":3058.323,"end":3070.832,"text":"給他充分 足夠及時那這個部分後面他立定了一個很這麼關懷我們前骨癌症的病人的方向以後原則我沒有問題我們怎麼來把它做法就是我們必須要來把它落實但是他有總統也特別強調說要多少就補多少"},{"start":3088.203,"end":3114.025,"text":"就是要把我們癌症的病人幫他照顧好降低宿舍我都會備那署長我剛剛講的這些問題你有了解嗎你也知道問題在哪裡嘛對不對加速的通過那你現在怎麼辦你準備好了沒有大概已經這個很快就是說你準備了這個要解決的問題齁就是這個癌藥癌症新藥基金這個等於是讓我們在財務預估上可以算準確"},{"start":3115.466,"end":3137.947,"text":"我們現在有的時候呢還不知道到底使用會有多少所以未來還是會回到健保基金啦一樣的它回到健保所以在這健保裡面去編列這個新藥預算的時候讓它可以等你有一個庫讓你先了解那我跟你告訴你說美國大概六成人會回來你六成人回來錢都準備好了那你這樣病人怎麼辦我治療有效結果你不讓我繼續用惡夢出現"},{"start":3140.93,"end":3145.152,"text":"無縫的接軌啦你今天也談不出這個100億怎麼分啦怎麼 allocation 怎麼分配啦這個還有很大的問題還是不夠因為賴總統他以為夠他還說不夠我就補回去不夠就補回去不夠的啦賴總統也知道需要再一直補充不夠的話問題就來那你就開始壓縮使用嘛壓縮就開始分配嘛"},{"start":3161.781,"end":3176.846,"text":"分配就開始你誰先用這個就涉及每一個人的觀點主審的最大這個就是我跟你講很多人他不是真的要去圖利誰可是他有他自己的想法這個是很難處理的所以我也一直很關心這件事情然後現在我就回到說現在你的這個分區共管你知道這個有後遺症嗎不管署長或部長"},{"start":3182.068,"end":3200.645,"text":"不同區域之一人之人本來就不均勻啦你分區共管那會不會惡化那個城鄉的差距呢而且如果地方管理適當齁那健保這個費用運用適當民眾群會不會受損那衛福部跟健保署是否已經有事辦範圍啊標準配套監督機制你就等於說幫他去管啊"},{"start":3201.966,"end":3211.996,"text":"那每個醫院就管你在這個情況下如果你在等於在自生自滅喔你不把總額這個大帽子拿掉你等於讓各地區各醫院自己去自生自滅喔"},{"start":3213.684,"end":3227.375,"text":"現在已經發生了你看好我看下一張好了就是我告訴你這個現象你們大家知道你看現在醫院怎麼存活南部的醫學中心就在醫生的處方的螢光幕上跟你說跟你說我建議你開這個藥因為這個要打圈圈兩個圈圈為什麼呢因為利潤最高"},{"start":3232.139,"end":3235.622,"text":"你難免逼著人家去做這件事嘛而且就是說還寫說敬請開立藥品時同時考慮醫療經濟學的成本效益其實藥品在價格不代表醫療成本效益經濟學的但是它就是一個簡化的方式那他們的醫師自己說這些提示雖然沒有強制但是在這個院務會議這個每一季的討論的時候你就科別你業績不好啊你這個要被檢討績效不好啊"},{"start":3261.563,"end":3270.788,"text":"這個情況下醫師就被迫去勾那個藥啊已經出現了啦部長署長我想你們都知道吧醫院會建議你醫生怎麼藥病人聽聽看外醫生是醫院建議他用哪一個藥那我的感覺呢我的權益呢病醫生的專業權自主權怎麼辦後遺症都出現所以我才說你要分區各管共管但是你有沒有監測的配套的機制去看看這個品質嘛對不對"},{"start":3290.478,"end":3317.33,"text":"就像署長昨天那個林靜儀的那件事情對不對他提出來的那個國際要價不是那個藥品的國際要價他把它grouping掉今天的專科醫師都跑出來講了說它裡面那個不同的那個所謂的那個封口劑裡面有不同還有人添加凝血因子還有人添加防沾黏的功能根本都不一樣你把它全部從這個分類分組一個叫grouping他們最害怕這個字你沒有廠牌之分把它放在同一組"},{"start":3318.57,"end":3346.239,"text":"用那裡面最低的價錢林靜儀次長唸出來的這邊都有公開的資料他唸的不是那個藥品的國際藥價但是你們在分組的時候可能出問題現在醫師大反彈因為那個病只有一次救命的機會對不對大動脈剝離主動脈剝離只有一次救命機會他當時沒有辦法就沒有辦法如果你把它縫好了水還是漏出來血還是漏出來就要靠這個凝膠去把它黏住就像拎刀水管的施力控一樣對不對"},{"start":3347.919,"end":3352.441,"text":"他可能是本質不一樣我是看專科醫師在談這件事情那你要把他放在同一組以後請林次長不懂不要亂講話現在醫師大反彈"},{"start":3360.547,"end":3376.317,"text":"委員我簡單回應一下,第一個就是各區的公關,我想你來行的,你是不是所有相關的委員會你都當過,其實在南區做得不錯但是這個現象都出現啊"},{"start":3379.439,"end":3403.537,"text":"所以美國的模式,我們總是要突破嘛所以是可以用在各區也是共管,其實這樣各區也是自己共管只是方式不太一樣現在出現後遺症我們告訴你嘛我們一定是預防後遺症那像剛剛提出這個部分我們請健保署去了解逼迫醫院去這樣做啊"},{"start":3404.698,"end":3417.427,"text":"其實如果一個以,因為我也是醫師,我也非常反對影響到醫師的住宿專業錢跟一樣嘛,我們不管是醫藥都是專業的嘛,我們真的很不希望被影響但是怎麼樣慢慢的讓整個醫療的行為能夠"},{"start":3423.431,"end":3447.725,"text":"能夠恢復健康經濟,然後對人民好我們價值理念都一樣,我現在在說很實務啦署長,另外署長你在醫材,那個當然我在藥品採取醫材的部分,你要grouping的時候你要把它分類成同一組,當作你們是同一夥的,同樣的東西我只花一樣的錢去買的時候,還是要小心啊因為醫生說不同成分,裡面我一聽有磷血因子,加磷血因子當然貴啊"},{"start":3450.233,"end":3470.21,"text":"當然我不知道,那林次長他給的那個國際要價不是他的國際要價然後大家就會以為說,就這麼貴你怎麼還要炒,炒的是醫生啊謝謝委員,我跟委員一樣都不是對所有的藥物都那麼清楚所以還是需要專家的意見為主啦所以我們會再回去,我們都有機制"},{"start":3472.612,"end":3501.183,"text":"我們這個過去全部都是自費啦過去都是自費現在才納入健保給付那至於一開始五月要納入健保給付他還有時間來申付他要提高價格把成本給我們看我們還是要為健保的財務把關啦所以我們要跟國際要價相比需要看他的成本和給一個合理的價格但是沒有他就隱藏他的自己的國際要價嘛你們這個共理會的表就隱藏他是空白啦只有他空白其他都有啊"},{"start":3502.163,"end":3517.353,"text":"所以就是這個藥出問題啦這個藥也不是最主流的藥,所以其他主流的藥沒有問題,所以公藥上沒有問題好謝謝,我以表達謝謝主席,好謝謝好謝謝委員這樣有充分表達啦接下來請林業勳委員來做詢問"},{"start":3533.669,"end":3560.335,"text":"主席 麻煩邱部長 請部長部長早 部長你事實上是台灣安寧醫療護的專家安寧緩和條例跟自主權立法這兩部法律對末期跟或不可逆的喪失神志的病人 透過病人跟家屬或"},{"start":3561.155,"end":3583.174,"text":"他的意願代理人來預你安寧緩和醫療書或預定一個醫療決定書要求醫生在往後的治療裡不要用人工營養跟流體餵養急救或者是維生醫療來做只是做一個維持心跳的無效的醫療但是安寧緩和和醫療"},{"start":3585.876,"end":3604.558,"text":"就非常挑戰我們的社會文化所以在法律要保護醫生避免受到家屬的攻擊而受到傷害而且要積極來促進以縮短病人的痛苦減少我們的醫療資源的浪費所以想問部長程序上病人自主並不是只要我喜歡有什麼不可以"},{"start":3605.049,"end":3628.867,"text":"必須是考量到病人本身跟醫護人員跟照顧者跟家庭成員跟重要他人的想法是多方協調後的結果可是還是會發生病人的決定家屬事實上是他不認同而跟醫生發生爭執的事件尤其是在安寧療護發生率更高所以衛福部如何支持醫生貫徹病人的決定做醫療"},{"start":3630.1,"end":3646.189,"text":"好,謝謝委員關心這麼重要的議題,也關心到生死大事以及善終是國人五福音門裡面最難達到的所以我們全國就像自治前法案,當時也是很辛苦"},{"start":3647.674,"end":3661.534,"text":"蘇委員在這裡,我想這兩位召委都有貢獻那當時都是希望達到這樣的一個目標那這中間的確是有這個人面對生命的默契"},{"start":3662.615,"end":3685.875,"text":"死亡就好像一個很強烈的陽光 你無法去正視它家屬也沒辦法正視它但是我們醫療人員 我們政府必須要幫他去正視它讓他能夠好好的過完末期 以及能夠善終所以我覺得政府跟相關的立法院 NE 來討論這個題目個人站在 自我敬佩啦"},{"start":3687.376,"end":3710.697,"text":"法院依據合法的程序來確保醫生不受醫療過失的判決可是還是無法避免憤怒的家屬對醫師提告所以醫生一旦被告就是要花錢去請律師花錢去開庭對此衛福部能夠給醫生什麼樣的具體的支持這個跟委員報告一下這也是二三十年來醫界"},{"start":3711.878,"end":3739.875,"text":"的一個大事情那在這的所有的委員尤其是蘇委員擔任那個立法 擔任那個醫師公會理事長的時候有的這有的有兩派意見牽扯到那但是我們終是把醫療法修法變成那個醫療的一個合理行者合理化那這個就是說以前可能會面對防疫性的醫療但是因為這個只要你好好的救病人"},{"start":3741.719,"end":3765.25,"text":"幾乎除了你有重大過失或錯誤不然是不會用行者加身所以那個時候就內外婦保科的住院醫師又通過了又上升了這樣子所以我們用各種法律然後再教育同時也讓民眾知道醫生是在幫你救你的命可能有兩成的救命機會"},{"start":3766.511,"end":3792.44,"text":"你說你要不要救病人家屬一定說一定要救啊可是八成是可能會他的疾病就是救不起來那就有八成的機會來告醫師啊那我說衛福部到底有沒有什麼具體的醫療行者合理化就是來保護這個啊就是這個已經做了很多的一個第一個這是第一個很重要的法案另外一個法案在前幾年通過的就是事故的一個"},{"start":3794.157,"end":3821.263,"text":"預防先預法預防還有更調節就是要先調節讓醫師不要承受那麼大的壓力讓醫病能夠更和諧它是一個很光明的法案這兩個法案基本上是讓我們醫病在面對救命的時候還是可以保障到醫生的權利嗎那來我問第二個就簽署人的資格民法第一"},{"start":3822.5,"end":3846.605,"text":"14條的第一項規定自然人如果精神障礙或心智缺陷的話不能跟他人溝通或不了解表達意思的話法院得為監護宣告可113年受監護宣告的人總數事實上是6047人其中18歲以上的有5999人其中以社會福利機構為監護人的有10件所以監護人有執行受監護的生活醫療照護跟財產管理的職務請問一下當"},{"start":3850.766,"end":3874.615,"text":"成年的病患本身意識不清楚的時候經法院為監護宣告的監護人依法可以為病患簽署安寧意願書嗎同意書嗎我要講的是說安寧這邊的話其實他要啟動的這邊其實必須要經由就是說至少前面要有兩個專科醫師確認他默契"},{"start":3876.596,"end":3900.274,"text":"他這一個所謂的安寧意願書由那個監護人簽署才會有效然後可是在那個病人自主這邊的話他還是會回到了一個病人自主的一個前提在病人沒有表達意願就是他在意識狀況沒有沒有這麼重大改變之前沒有表示過任何意願的時候這個監護人其實他沒有辦法決定以上"},{"start":3901.135,"end":3902.937,"text":"那根據我們的健保署的分析在死亡前一個月內接受安寧療護的話"},{"start":3916.608,"end":3934.707,"text":"每個人可以減少到三萬兩千元的醫療支出如果去死亡前六個月接受安寧照護的話每個人可以減少到十萬七千元的醫療支出預歷醫療決定書也可以達到這樣的效果那預歷醫療照護諮商一個案子"},{"start":3936.024,"end":3959.234,"text":"民眾要自費三千元就是要自己花三千元對多數人來講事實上是貴的所以去年七月我覺得衛福部也推出了一個育立醫療照護諮商推廣的獎勵計畫針對低收跟中低收的特定對象來提供免費的諮商服務可是看起來數據推了一年大概從兩萬四增加到兩萬五"},{"start":3961.038,"end":3987.707,"text":"沒有很顯著的提升啦所以想問一下花三千元可以省下大筆的醫療費用為健保的財務永續衛福部一定會往這個方向推動可是去年推動的不利的原因是什麼因為增加不多好當然我們做調查 包委員當然我們做調查的時候的確為什麼不簽民眾寫出來的原因當然就是說因為諮商費用對啊是蠻高的那"},{"start":3989.918,"end":4011.838,"text":"我記得剛開始推出來的時候我們立法院好幾個委員都跑去台大醫院真的去做諮商那個我很敬佩他們就花幾千塊去做但是其實對一般的民眾來講的確是很負擔所以我們去年7月還有5月1號會擴大來讓那個更多的希望"},{"start":4012.719,"end":4035.229,"text":"有更多的機會來讓病人來簽那當然怎麼樣我們要去了解原因那衛生署也一直在請協界這邊了解原因今天新聞報導也說5月7號要擴大所以你今年的預例醫療註記的人身要提升你目標是多少"},{"start":4038.26,"end":4046.359,"text":"今年你的預例醫療租金的人數也要提升嘛齁你目標是多少希望"},{"start":4048.176,"end":4066.652,"text":"我補充一下這個吼我們會希望是說現在大概一年兩萬左右能夠透過今年因為才只有半年的執行期所以能夠就是加倍到四萬左右是我們的目標然後那剛剛那個委員吹詢的是說推廣這一塊的話其實我們發現是說民眾的認知跟我們傳統習"},{"start":4071.276,"end":4096.873,"text":"習俗文化的這個禁錮其實還是一個主因另外一塊就是財務所以才會是從財務面的地方我們跟健保署合作推廣面的部分的話我們會跟長照室合作因為目前看到願意簽署的都是人生經驗裡面有一些相關的所以目前大概是50歲以上是我們的一個target謝謝市長安寧療護的概念早在"},{"start":4097.645,"end":4118.691,"text":"立法前台灣大概就已經開始在推動大概現在已經20年了而且使用率逐年增加那從2022年使用的大概達到6萬7病人死亡前的一年的安寧利用率的話大概30.4%那可是還是上市量能不足啦那所以"},{"start":4119.631,"end":4131.887,"text":"整個他事實上是透過多種專業來對病人跟家屬做整體的輔導那他同時也是生理心理的一個醫療可是這個項目真的蠻燒錢的所以對醫院來說"},{"start":4134.73,"end":4163.158,"text":"如果不是為了評鑑加分的話 誘因不大所以因此安寧病床的床位不多而採用安寧共照來替代所以112年全國有86家醫院共計915床到114年的時候變成是85家醫院大概910床整個需求多 床位少可是四病每一天大家都有人在排隊所以想問一下目前實際上的安寧病床到底病床數有多少"},{"start":4164.575,"end":4186.525,"text":"是的 薛委員 剛剛您報的就是現在的就是910嗎 整個不多 所以就會有跨科的做安寧供照所以目前安寧供照對病人 特別是家屬的照護能夠達到安寧病房的水準嗎 衛福部怎麼去確保這個水準因為不一樣啊"},{"start":4187.265,"end":4202.325,"text":"我想安寧共照是一個有一點點不得不的站在我們的文化跟民眾的需求所衍生出來的因為你如果叫他不要去住安寧病房這個就是一個很大的關卡但是他在"},{"start":4203.306,"end":4228.587,"text":"其實安寧緩和醫療最好是越早啟動越好所以也許他已經在做緩和性的化療那個時代那個時候就應該有加入安寧緩和醫療團隊來跟你的病房跟你解說什麼叫安寧有時候你跟這個A病床的人說結果是B病床的人聽一聽說那我要去安寧病房所以那個越早啟動的時候讓真的"},{"start":4229.707,"end":4242.022,"text":"病人可以規劃未來可以做的事情所以安寧的構造是非常重要的那安寧構造的團隊其實也花了非常大的心力他的效果當然是沒辦法像安寧病房這樣子整個團隊來給他"},{"start":4249.491,"end":4276.379,"text":"各方面全方位的一個照顧所以當然怎麼樣讓需要安寧病房的人能夠住進來當然這一邊也要跟委員實際上報告雖然這麼多床但是很多醫院的安寧病床因為文化的問題他們可能還是希望病人還是希望跟家屬還是希望共照他們不太願意到安寧病房來的所以我們的你去分析各個醫院的占床率"},{"start":4277.139,"end":4293.292,"text":"就知道其實更重要的更重要的是要去推展民眾的觀念可是基於病人自主醫療的權利保障跟善終的期望那又你整個安寧病房的量又不足"},{"start":4293.712,"end":4316.253,"text":"使用率低的狀況這種現實問題我相信衛福部有義務也有能力要把整個政策建構更完整所以病人運營安寧緩和醫療書跟預訂醫療決定書這一整套的制度連結分級醫療體系的醫院跟社區兩端所以社區單這邊也可以看到有在宅"},{"start":4317.372,"end":4338.422,"text":"在宅安寧跟我們的機構安寧這兩種在宅的醫療形式讓病人除了住院以外另外在社區中老那你的政策經費呢是111年的居家醫療的照護整合計畫的2.0113年是全民健康保險在宅急症急症照護的事辦計畫這兩個"},{"start":4340.703,"end":4364.467,"text":"計畫在支撐所以想問的是在不論長照老人還是護理之家在住宿型機構籌組照護團隊的服務機構內的病人對於機構品質的提升一定有比較正面的影響對機構病人分級醫療各方面都有一些注意本來就是應該要大力推動的政策可是政府一直在考一直沒有把一個人考慮進來就是沒有考慮住宿機構來籌組照護團隊的經營的壓力這像"},{"start":4369.928,"end":4398.719,"text":"服務對醫院來講就是賠錢在座了那對住宿型機構來講更是那醫生探視費呢健保支付如果給醫院1500為什麼給住宿型機構只有1200這有20%的落差是打擊士氣所以本期認為醫院跟住宿型機構各項的醫事人員的訪視費要一致啊你請你推動這項訴求那你同意嗎就是大家應該都是一致的"},{"start":4399.949,"end":4427.856,"text":"那個因為他給幾戶方面跟委員報告這個我們已經通過下半年會來做這個安寧照護品質的平和平和之後按照他的程度分別加成10%20%跟30%那這個包含了住院的安寧安寧共照跟居家安寧都適用那另一方面我們下半年也會來檢討居家安寧的給付方式到底是要包月"},{"start":4428.396,"end":4439.902,"text":"我們現在是論次那有沒有用包月的方式讓他更具彈性都會一來檢討那至於在給付方面也一定朝向不同工不同酬的方式來思考所以下半年會開始去做規劃"},{"start":4440.956,"end":4464.324,"text":"因為病人在住宿型機構發生醫療糾紛的時候勢必會大幅增加所以機構背後一定要有強大的支持系統也就是綠色通道所以綠色通道除了提供緊急救援住院支援以外那人力技術也都是重要的一環所以衛福部是不是能夠確保機構具備有這項強大的後勤支援"},{"start":4465.711,"end":4492.925,"text":"好我想這是很重要要去努力的方向我們會一定來努力所以最後麻煩我覺得我有三點訴求就是整個醫事的那個人員的支持方案面對病人的業質疑跟訴訟我覺得還是要提供一些支持那擴大獄力醫療照護的諮商的全額補助對象今天應該也得到你們的65歲以上都是"},{"start":4493.645,"end":4517.238,"text":"那提高我們住宿型機構的人士園的紡織費所以是不是下半年如果在討論的時候可能要考慮一下我剛剛講的是不是答案是同樣的還預設通道的糾紛避免那個依舊的部分要為住宿型機構提供後勤的支持那麻煩這些是不是在後面提供兩週內提供給我書面報告好 謝謝我們就把計畫書提供給委員 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":4523.379,"end":4525.12,"text":"接下來請蘇清泉、趙偉來做懸檔謝謝,謝謝劉朝偉的禮讓,我先講還有邢部長,還有那個石署長"},{"start":4546.476,"end":4571.434,"text":"這個ACP這個自主權力法這個在我給你review一下2015年通過的時候那個時候我在做教育那個時候劉建國也在這個王毅民也在那個時候為什麼這個法到最後你每一腳就退上去就是楊逸勳楊逸勳委員"},{"start":4574.991,"end":4582.397,"text":"現在剛才你說他是做假人的社會救急病那個時候他跟我講說他說 教育啊 社會醫院啊 我楊益心隨時會死啊2016年啊 他說因為他是肌肉的問題嘛我現在看他每天真的很痛苦"},{"start":4597.646,"end":4607.58,"text":"他常常早上起來就好像無數的針在插他的肉這樣他這樣跟我描述,我聽到他應該讓他有選擇他要怎麼處理自己聽起來很有力,所以為了"},{"start":4615.806,"end":4643.022,"text":"這個案子又遭到大宴會要報告,都遭到報告所以這個法通過之後好像那個年代是很先進的全世界沒有幾個國家通過這個法案那這個法案2015年統計到2019年你在做立法,你在做教育部長你在教教育2019年到實施實施到現在就是慢慢走慢慢走那現在就要大修法"},{"start":4644.102,"end":4668.8,"text":"我是比較保守啦 比較保留那簽的人才ACP 簽的人才10萬請問是要怎麼做 我看不太一樣所以你個人的看法是怎麼樣我是相對保守啦對 ACP對 我覺得ACP因為 所以"},{"start":4671.314,"end":4684.839,"text":"這對手指教育醫師本色,他覺得每天臨床上把病人照顧好,不管他是哪一種疾病,尤其施昭維是照顧重症的病人專家所以我們每天都在做倫理的決策"},{"start":4687.062,"end":4708.629,"text":"其實給病人都是最適當的一個治療最好的治療最適當的最適當的治療最好的照顧啦所以我們覺得說在其他法律方面的層面它到底它的意義何在這個部分我們會有思考我是很敬佩蘇醫師這個見解"},{"start":4711.84,"end":4728.314,"text":"但是問題在不管是安寧緩和醫療安寧緩和醫療條例最早的時候其實是有一點點因為剛開始安寧在推嘛所以很多醫病的溝通都沒要做CPR這如果有一個補貨是比較好那以前安寧緩和醫療條例詭異喔其實對社會的一個"},{"start":4732.097,"end":4733.759,"text":"社會運動也是幫助很大喔"},{"start":4748.188,"end":4771.463,"text":"他就變成見證人了你知道嗎就完成了安寧環的藥所以我覺得社會運動讓臺灣的人民更知道關心到這一塊絕對是好事情那後來又有自治病前法案更是把它的範圍擴大所以這是對大家對生命教育其實是有幫助那我們也做一個不好意思來講一下因為我們做"},{"start":4774.725,"end":4803.244,"text":"做兩階段研究 剛開始的時候你要簽ACP裡面的AD簽好以後到實際上他面臨這個問題的時候有七成的吻合力也就是說他不願意押胸 不願意插管大概100%都符合但是在抗生素的使用 在人工輸液的使用哪一個是臨床上比較變化多要看當時的情況 我想你很清楚所以其實有幫忙啦"},{"start":4804.405,"end":4827.788,"text":"所以這個法規怎麼把它修好,我覺得這是一個好的方向因為當時是非常嚴謹,說要有醫師、有社工、婦女人員還有家屬,甚至要有公眾人數,大家都這樣集齊在那裡你現在要把它開放,說比較簡單的當便宜不用,可以住安養院、住婦女之家"},{"start":4828.929,"end":4850.964,"text":"不然那廟也可以 那廟的老人家也可以這樣就合意啦 因為不夠嚴謹就會覺得改是要很慎重啦 執行倡議那我另外一個感覺會覺得說是不是更不夠逃避責任啦你看我們的平均壽命 來"},{"start":4854.932,"end":4862.614,"text":"這是我們2023、2024平均壽命,台灣平均人平均壽命到80.3歲而已,80.3,老婆老婆比起來,老婆的83.7,老婆的76、77而已,我看起來是英年早逝"},{"start":4877.165,"end":4882.872,"text":"我現在除了在參加 還未成 增加在190個 越來越多在沙坡人都多了70幾個 太少了吧平均起來在80.3 你知道嗎 那個日本現在是85.5啊 南米平均喔"},{"start":4895.52,"end":4911.835,"text":"然後日本的女人 香港的女人居然活得比日本還久日本人其實我很欽佩 我去日本很多次日本人沒有那麼快死啦 因為怎樣咧散散的 又倒酒 又敲骨 又吃酒 那要怎麼死啦"},{"start":4914.235,"end":4919.997,"text":"又愛排隊,又愛跨杯,又愛吃健康食品,又每天都吃老酒湯,每天都吃那些花瘦的納豆,什麼臭生豆,什麼凍吃,所以那種國家,我一般沒什麼避暗啦。"},{"start":4931.452,"end":4945.707,"text":"香港的我就覺得很奇怪香港的女人怎麼活一活那麼久我最近在問香港的醫生香港來台灣當醫生的我都請教也研究了一下他們的結論是走路"},{"start":4947.168,"end":4966.185,"text":"走路囉,因為香港的地小人手,沒有摩托車什麼都沒有,所以都有走路,坐捷運坐公車,所以說走路是強迫走路嘛,我們台南市都騎摩托車,大家都騎摩托車,買一個菜市場也騎摩托車,香港都有走路,日本也很多都有走路,日本是有摩托車啦。"},{"start":4967.666,"end":4988.659,"text":"所以香港 澳門 你看都這麼長那新加坡也很長 怕死人那台灣是最後一名 比韓國還短命所以這個 你有那麼急 一直要推這個DNR啦 ACP啦在2015年 楊宇新在這裡靠腰他現在2025年也不會死人"},{"start":4991.71,"end":5004.279,"text":"他還在用的啊所以為什麼科技的進步會讓我們的壽命是可以解決的就是說癌症的標榜楊義新我前面有說我告訴你不要緊啦他不會把我嚇死我會跟大家報告的就是說"},{"start":5009.827,"end":5030.433,"text":"以前沒有辦法醫治的,現在標靶藥什麼什麼生物製劑一直出來就可以延長壽命啦所以不要說動不動就要那些人塞DNA動不動,我看那些以前沒人的,現在都沒人了像以前來的,溫室的以前來的現在也拖很久,拖了很久對不對,不斷那些話,我感覺說全部叫他就要升職所以都在那裡瘋了有這個事情嗎,署長"},{"start":5039.062,"end":5065.407,"text":"沒有 我當然你的專業還有間諜一定很敬佩但是從我的角度我會覺得所有從事推動安寧政策跟關心安寧政策跟實際上照顧人他們的心都是說當你真的沒辦法已經到末期的時候我怎麼樣讓你有生命品質怎麼樣讓你善終 教育報告善終是五福靈門裡面最難達到的"},{"start":5066.807,"end":5087.101,"text":"所以我們一定要面對這個事情過去二十多年義大利的時候他們早上打招呼不是說早安是說你今天想到死亡了沒他們在推行死亡教育就是這樣在推行讓大家有一點準備當然我們希望一五十歲很重視這個但是活到八二歲你現在如果去炒地硬貢"},{"start":5089.602,"end":5111.888,"text":"阿公阿嬤十八歲他們都不會打破褲子大家十八歲他們就打破褲子所以可能大家期待但是你如果比較面對人生有時候很難講的你如果比較了解的話你也可以幫忙你的親戚朋友你自己有病的人互相都有這個面對死亡的一個怎麼樣做好"},{"start":5112.808,"end":5133.347,"text":"善終的一個準備,這是好事啦所以我,教育他們都要講很多,所以你先給我一點時間來,想不想我幫你檢部署,建議啦你現在很大的一個希望就是說,把什麼包山包海全部都納進來,這也我給你勤賠啦但是你們一納進來之後,就把那個壓價格壓壓壓,壓的很低"},{"start":5139.772,"end":5156.777,"text":"心臟支架在我那個年代是全部都是智慧,放一支支架要五六萬,沒有塗藥的喔後來健保局給支付了一支支架付一萬五千點,點喔不是錢喔"},{"start":5160.944,"end":5185.293,"text":"後來還有塗藥支架出來,塗藥支架要付差額那個開脊椎的那個Catch,那個空啊,也是你們付還沒付之前,智慧是四、五萬塊你們付的時候也是一萬多點,一萬多點那現在像剛剛陳昭芝講的那種磷膠,那個開心臟外科是以前都是智慧嘛,你現在給他支付之後,付一個萬多點"},{"start":5187.822,"end":5208.74,"text":"亂說也好,是不夠,有這樣的退出所以有時候你要包山包海的時候,這次川普政府來跟我們要求其中一點就是他要讓我們開放一個智慧的平台新藥、新科技、新耗材,想付的人也付得起的人,他們有一個空間"},{"start":5211.31,"end":5229.022,"text":"這樣我覺得這樣是對的啦你每一樣都把他壓來健保幾戶標靶藥拿來幾戶很多藥廠受不了那都不賣台灣了嘛那也是我們的損失嘛對不對很多藥我可以唸出來喔沒有時間了齁我都是這樣退出台灣的市場所以"},{"start":5230.22,"end":5255.757,"text":"裡面是照顧普羅大眾這是要欽佩的但是有一些還是開放一點點讓他們有一個這次關稅談就會談到這個啦所以 署長你的行情 我很欽佩你的做法 我也很認同但是 留什麼空間 再來就是要這樣和解的時候你每天那種物品 也是要考慮啦署長你講一下"},{"start":5259.767,"end":5281.765,"text":"謝謝委員的指教啦 確實啦 很多東西是有人想納入健保 有人不想納入健保所以同一個產品也都有不同的意見 癌藥也是如此 醫材也是如此所以健保秉持的就是第一個 那麼急重難症要先照顧啦不要讓這個病人在危急的時候還要再考慮荷包的問題啦"},{"start":5282.586,"end":5298.22,"text":"所以第一個我們的態度就是這樣所以像這個凝膠我們也不是全面擠附我們也是主要挑這個主動脈玻璃這種非常緊急這個委員也清楚那個就是Type A從這個主動脈根部撕裂的這一"},{"start":5298.86,"end":5328.039,"text":"這一種那它的縫合後的這個凝膠使用所以適用對象大概就是1400多位所以其餘的我們也是還在留在自費市場我們就是讓這個危及生命的時候能夠得到健保的給付所以我們考量上第一個一定先從集中南海優先那行有餘力我們的預算夠大家這個健保費繳得夠那我們再逐步的擴大所以這個我們都有這個倫理的考量也有這個疾病需求的考量"},{"start":5328.379,"end":5344.996,"text":"這些都會一起我們國家的先進指標就ZDP國民收入再來就是平均壽命再來是癌症、死亡年齡、死亡率再來公共衛生等等這都是指標平均壽命這樣還不夠長在R中間還剩多少"},{"start":5348.94,"end":5376.157,"text":"所以很需要努力的空間啦所以這個法是我們起頭的現在要修改我是相對保留啦跟部長說我的立場好不好好 首先我要報告一下平均寿命或者健康的平均移民是我們現在目前國家的政策重要的所以會來努力這不在困難裡的啦這大家共同努力啦好 謝謝"},{"start":5383.889,"end":5400.257,"text":"因為醫界多數都支持ACP"},{"start":5410.167,"end":5437.93,"text":"這個服務的量要擴大也希望從經濟面來考量這個健保署還是衛福部要來支持這個是你們意見大家應該有的公司都有發聲明稿第二你講說現在醫療人進步沒有錯但是我們在公告第五款裡面寫得非常清楚楊委員是主提案人我也是提案人還有王委員對不對你也都大聲說我們自己當模型講其他經濟中央主管機關"},{"start":5439.416,"end":5457.406,"text":"公告病人之疾病狀況或痛苦難以忍受,疾病無法治癒,且依當時醫療水準,無其他合適解決方法之情形。所以我們要逼那個愚民,我們要逼健康愚民。"},{"start":5458.598,"end":5484.177,"text":"我們逼不健康醫院就不用逼啊,人家最好要善終是要好走嘛,不要潘走嘛,不要在那裡用無效醫療,在那裡咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕咕�"},{"start":5490.45,"end":5493.032,"text":"主席好 我們一樣請邱部長來 請部長委員長部長好"},{"start":5499.417,"end":5526.894,"text":"那還是同樣的話題就是我們病人自主這個權利法那麼我看到我們這個法案我們兩個有三個法案是兩個執政黨的我們的委員的版本那看到現在我沒有看到正院版那我看到衛福部的報告幾乎是對於主要條文都保留或者是反對那最後結論建議維持原條文我想請問一下部長為什麼衛福部不同意修法"},{"start":5530.339,"end":5552.063,"text":"我想這個修法我們是用開放的態度啦但是基本上從以前修法的立法的整個過程當中我們覺得可能有很多更重要的事情是不是比修法更重要那個政府一直在做那修法的部分我是覺得我們是用"},{"start":5553.591,"end":5573.876,"text":"開放的心胸來討論今天的會議是我們召委安排的我想這件事情應該是很多人的心聲我想召委也等不及了那我當然知道衛福部是很慎重那這個部分你還要凝聚多久多久才可以提出我們政院的版本還是都不提了"},{"start":5580.12,"end":5606.635,"text":"因為這個是已經有立法了嘛那針對針對大家的一些意見然後是臨床上的一些可能需要調整的我也感謝委員提出了我覺得大家開放來討論這個事情是比較好開放來討論對然後因為武漢病毒法上路五年只有10.3萬人在簽署那比例只有0.45%那真正的執行率會更低"},{"start":5607.728,"end":5631.393,"text":"然後當然這次修法的原因就是因為我們覺得這個成效是沒有很理想那當然就是希望能夠調整嘛能夠調整讓更多的人更方便我覺得宣傳更重要應該很多人都不太清楚這個東西這個是事實當然還有一個費用的問題啦這也是這一次修法的一個重點那我想"},{"start":5635.529,"end":5656.505,"text":"今天審查的版本就是我們講的ACP的就費用太高讓家屬的這個卻步那導致也是導致成效不彰的主因那改由政府負擔那部長認為這個部分會增加預算那請問部長那政府既然不願意負擔能不能那有沒有其他的辦法呢"},{"start":5657.205,"end":5675.015,"text":"好,我想我們包圍我們想逐步,剛剛健保署也有報告從去年到未來的五月我們都會一直在討論如何如何來開放的確是有讓更多來參與,那是不是這樣子就可以解決我們更多人來"},{"start":5676.096,"end":5692.349,"text":"來那個從剛剛的幾位委員的報告裡面恐怕我們要做更多我覺得這個是這樣啦就是當然這是人民的自由啦然後當然對於政府來講他是也可以減輕我們一些的負擔啦那當然我們尊重每個人的想法不過我覺得這個剛剛我講那個宣傳啦"},{"start":5694.491,"end":5717.045,"text":"因為真的確實不是很多人能夠了解到這一塊只是一些專業的人或者是有接觸到的才會知道那當然其實搞不好有些人有這個想法那我們當然不是鼓勵他們這樣這個當然是看個人意願不過我覺得這個是未來我們早晚都要面對的事情應該是來開放的用更開放的心態來去"},{"start":5718.626,"end":5745.018,"text":"這個面對這個事情好嗎是的好那部長再來我們看到賴清德總統最近在2025年健康台灣全國論壇裡面提出健保的改革想法那他特別提到我們花蓮秀林鄉論人記仇的計畫成功他希望擴大辦理那部長你這邊也跟進將在花蓮台東擴大辦理這方向是確定的嗎跟委員報告因為"},{"start":5746.378,"end":5756.525,"text":"那個花蓮秀林鄉他其實他的名字不叫做論人記者媒體都一直寫論人記者我想這個先修正一下因為要達到論人記者這個部分"},{"start":5758.479,"end":5777.36,"text":"不是不行而是要有很多的配套措施我們以前大概十年前也曾經在台灣七個地方來做有成功有但是當時因為專程制度沒有做好家庭意識制度也沒有建立所以的確比較多需要配套但是在秀園鄉這個有一點"},{"start":5779.178,"end":5794.441,"text":"IDS的味道等一下請署長會補充那我們覺得說他成功為什麼他成功因為他的不管是流感的注射率預防保健的預防真的打啦或者是篩檢都比其他的地方還高"},{"start":5795.402,"end":5812.952,"text":"那就是要不要有一個醫院 請派人去教育 去做整個前人的照顧那像這樣的模式 就有健康促進的成分在裡面那我想總統很希望真的能夠健康促進有47個地方嘛我的意思是說 為什麼只選電華臨台東來擴大辦理的意思"},{"start":5822.737,"end":5837.399,"text":"我想我們一步一步來啦那既然發展台東也許他的區域是不是比較因為後面沒有像台北醫療資源你像我們苗栗他泰安其實人口也不多"},{"start":5838.52,"end":5860.122,"text":"他也是偏鄉啦那我認為當然其實這個你們號稱不會增加健保的支出嘛當然我們這個IDS這個做調查比如說我們個人的病史飲食習慣等等就是我們未來要想要推動的一個叫這個精準醫療的部分嘛對不對不好意思我要先補充一下花蓮秀"},{"start":5861.303,"end":5879.481,"text":"花蓮秀芸香這個齁 其實它也不叫做一般的IDS啦齁它叫做前人 前家 前社 社區的一個整合照顧的一個這一個是世界的趨勢 所以能夠在秀芸香做 我相信它是未來是我們一個典範那這個如果能夠放到各個地方去 我們樂觀其成齁"},{"start":5881.483,"end":5904.863,"text":"那當然如果只有在秀營鄉也太可惜了啦因為它畢竟我們是希望這是我覺得不錯的一個政策啦那當然我們希望說我們西半部這邊也有很多偏鄉其實交通也非常不方便而且資源也非常的少那這部分我希望我們衛福部能夠盡快再納入好不好那個簡單那個署長回報一下"},{"start":5906.704,"end":5923.921,"text":"跟邱委員報告就是說它跟IDS不同是IDS是以醫療為主那這個全人全社區整合照護計畫呢它是以家戶做單位然後導入這個預防保健健康促進等等這些整合的照護啦所以它明顯的可以降低這個"},{"start":5924.862,"end":5949.795,"text":"迷病率 住院率這些重症的發生這個在偏遠地區其實是很好的模式因為畢竟就醫比較遠他是把家裡的資料 等於建立家裡的資料要建立家戶資料 他的重點在建立家戶資料一般IDS是有團隊去然後你有需要來看病的就來看那他這個不一樣他這個有點就是類似把你們的病史啊幹嘛全部都是把它做資料也就是我們講的要來一種精準"},{"start":5952.816,"end":5968.581,"text":"醫療的一個概念其實這個我認為在全國來推動的時候是不是也能夠節省我們健保的支出因為其實很多吃了這個藥不行然後又換了一家醫院每一次去重複對病人也好"},{"start":5969.781,"end":5991.316,"text":"對我們政府的健保的負擔也好都不是一個好的事情這是我們常看到的就是說有些人吃了過敏有些人吃了身體不適或者是各年會產生比如說有一些藥會產生副作用等等的這些都是一個我認為是個人的這是醫療浪費的一個非常大的一個漏洞"},{"start":5992.316,"end":6018.017,"text":"那我們今年其實也在西部這邊的幾個山地鄉比較偏遠地區也有擴大事辦像北區就是在桃園復興鄉我現在看到你那個圖就是我看到就是我們原民的這個對不對原民部落嘛所以我剛剛會講泰安的原因就在這裡啦那你希望說其實有很多地方真的也需要這個這樣的一個照顧好不好好謝謝"},{"start":6019.998,"end":6035.843,"text":"那再來問一個就比較短一點是那個我們加熱鹽上市就是我們煙害防治法在112年3月公佈實施那審查已經兩年了那我們審查這個結果這個其實沒有結果是什麼原因"},{"start":6039.083,"end":6054.277,"text":"我想我們非常注意到這個審查的進度我想國健署這邊真的都是按照時程其實常常要補資料然後又有一個時程所以有很多溝通我希望啦現在還沒有"},{"start":6054.917,"end":6079.379,"text":"還沒有完全到最後決定的我希望啦就是說根據國際研究指出青少年使用加熱菸的盛行率是成年人的這個兩倍並且有將近九成的年輕吸菸者他第一次接觸都是這種加味菸品當然我認為說我們要開放當然我希望我們衛福部這邊的配套能夠把它準備得更完善一些"},{"start":6080.154,"end":6100.235,"text":"因為現在這個加熱菸還沒上市,我看到那個電子菸的器具、工具現在滿街都是啊,它現在不是違法嗎?沒有人取締啊?有有有,我們非常熱爭起立我怎麼沒看到咧?沒有聽到起立的成果可不可以報告一下?"},{"start":6103.508,"end":6119.157,"text":"跟委員報告一下 有關於這個煙害防治法3月22號上路之後那我們目前對於電子煙跟違法加熱煙的稽查取締的部分 不管是中央跨部會跟地方都合力在做這一塊的執法"},{"start":6119.577,"end":6134.123,"text":"那目前截至114年這個1月截止大概裁罰的件數大概有4500多件裁罰金有大概4.5億那我們中央也會定期再召開這個跨部會的這個查緝的相關"},{"start":6135.003,"end":6150.051,"text":"那我跟你講,加熱菸如果未來核准上市,我想該有的教育宣導跟我們的管理機制,我想大家要吳衛福部這邊要盡快的來擬定,好不好?不要讓這個事情變成影響公共健康的一個問題,好不好?是,是,謝謝好,謝謝,謝謝部長委員在這邊宣告"},{"start":6160.165,"end":6172.702,"text":"莊立雄委員詢答結束之後我們休息十分鐘接下來請王育民委員來做詢答你如果要加提案說明就一起會增加時間剛剛有宣布謝謝因為我沒有辦法提案說明"},{"start":6173.407,"end":6192.988,"text":"好謝謝我們的召委今天排這個很重要的病毒法他的整個修正的條文那我想有關於病毒法這個是我們當時在2019年1月正式實施之後我們是亞洲第一步就是以病人為主體"},{"start":6194.009,"end":6222.305,"text":"然後提供很完整的一方面去尊重醫療自主一方面去保障這個善終權益所以這個法我覺得整個亞洲地區來講台灣我們走在前面這個的確是我們應該要好好的來推動的那這六年來其實事情下來呢有出現一些的狀況跟問題就是說當時這個利益非常良善的法案但是上路之後"},{"start":6222.965,"end":6225.728,"text":"事實上這個整個執行的醫療簽署率其實並不高如果累計的話現在大概跟我們成人的比例站起來大概只有0.5%所以也代表說我們六年了應該回過頭來檢討我們有哪些地方可以好好的來"},{"start":6238.9,"end":6267.636,"text":"改變那我想當時推動這部法案非常用力的楊玉新委員那他雖然現在離開立法院但是他很關注這個法後續的實施所以基本上我想我跟劉建國委員我們其實都跟他有保持這個互動所以討論之後我們提出了這樣的一個修法的版本那很重要的幾個點第一個當然就是在這個醫療費用的部分這個是現在很多人"},{"start":6268.351,"end":6289.651,"text":"可能覺得在醫療費用他其實是自己要負擔2000到3500那這個也會阻礙一些人就是說可能礙於費用他沒有辦法來做這個預理醫療的簽署所以費用的部分政府是使得來支應這個是這一次修法的重點那當然"},{"start":6290.41,"end":6302.876,"text":"會希望說是不是健保這邊可以來給予支應所以這個部分這個是很大的一個重點另外一個就是現在可以進行這個育立醫療照護諮商的單位除了原來在醫療機構裡面的區醫院跟診所之外那是不是應該可以去開放一樣是很專業的團體包括這個有一些護理機構長照機構"},{"start":6317.544,"end":6344.569,"text":"心理治療所心理諮商所還有社工事務所也都可以來參與因為主要是現在的這個等待的時間是比較長的就是醫院裡面能提供的量能其實也是比較低的所以這個部分也希望可以來開放那另外就是要實施病毒法怎麼樣真正去落實這個原來病人的意願那關係人也不可以再去妨礙醫師執行這個是在第4條"},{"start":6347.643,"end":6375.793,"text":"裡面有提出來修訂那另外病毒法裡面第14條裡面特別去修訂就是不要讓這個執行的醫療機構或醫師再去擔負這個刑事行政的責任原來就有規定那現在再增加一個是民事的責任所以我想這一次委員提出這樣的一個修法就是希望說讓我們這麼亞洲第一的我們的病毒法就是可以真正的落實"},{"start":6376.792,"end":6405.399,"text":"然後去符合到他原來的這個我們希望病人自主而且呢可以善終這樣的一個目標那所以這個謝謝莊委給我提案說明的時間那接下來我們就請那個部長是不是我們針對這個議題我們好好的來討論一下第一個就是我想請教部長事實上你剛剛的發言我發現你也是非常支持這一個善終醫療這樣的一個方向"},{"start":6406.155,"end":6423.631,"text":"那但是病毒法實施到現在你可以看到他的這個施行率的確是不高那所以這個就衛福部部長的角度的話第一個我要問你說你滿意現在的這個育立醫療的人數嗎就是你是不是覺得他應該還有成長的空間嗯"},{"start":6427.136,"end":6452.323,"text":"我們當然希望他人數一個成長因為其實各個醫院已經都準備團隊在那邊準備服務了啦所以其實量能是有但是就是民眾有沒有意願那這個真的剛剛也有委員提到怎麼樣做生命的教育加強生命的教育讓大家能夠來注重這個他自然就覺得這個去簽有意義"},{"start":6453.263,"end":6480.13,"text":"那這個也是驅動的原因可能不止完全是經費的問題當然經費的確是一個原因但是如果生命交易夠讓大家知道這是重要的我相信這更大的驅動力我覺得都要啦就是說讓民眾可以有這個比較好的認知願意接受另外一方面就是去排除他的那個障礙跟門檻那我想"},{"start":6480.57,"end":6502.875,"text":"今天為什麼很具體的在這個法案裡面就是希望可以把這個經費放進來因為我想這個很多團體在第一線推他們的確發現民眾覺得說我很願意簽但是你還要我自己自掏腰包再多花3500塊我要花時間然後我要花錢才能完成這個程序我覺得他的確是增加了他的困難度了"},{"start":6503.295,"end":6526.352,"text":"所以這個部分呢這次才會有修法希望說在預算的部分是不是政府的力量可以就像宣導你今天去宣導也是政府的力量協助來宣導那今天要民眾再次多出這個錢我覺得政府相對也是有這個責任如果我們要去推動的話應該可以就是多增加這一個補助的項目那當然你們原本原本有對外說"},{"start":6530.385,"end":6555.714,"text":"2026年要全民免費你知不知道這件事媒體上面有報導原本衛福部是有打算2026年是要全民免費的那當時你們這樣的一個目標跟方向其實對於整體的推動是很好的一個方向但是後來為什麼又縮回來了你們現在限縮到5月開始你們只有65歲以上的重大傷病跟65歲以上的多重慢性病"},{"start":6556.374,"end":6565.508,"text":"就是原本你們其實是有一個很大的目標跟理想就是說就推動全民免費為什麼後來這個政策又縮回來"},{"start":6570.374,"end":6590.071,"text":"我想可能觀念上也不是錢免免費,我是說其實如果能夠早一點立下一些衣族其實未來在做默契的時候選擇好的對象真的可以節省醫療費用這節省的醫療費用可能遠大於你這個諮商的費用"},{"start":6591.492,"end":6617.443,"text":"所以這種健康投資是值得來評估但是在可能我想國家的財源一定或者健保的財源有限那什麼才是排比較重要的大家可以來討論大家可以討論譬如說剛剛說剛剛時事處長有提什麼藥品都想進來想提高價錢我們的健保就是這樣子今年已經是最大的大家的努力是像多了700多億"},{"start":6621.644,"end":6646.569,"text":"可能還是有很多很多的要努力的空間所以近來他對財務的衝擊是怎麼樣這個的確是我們用開放的胸心用關懷的心那這部分我可以拜託部長你們回去再研議一下你們現在是開放到65歲但是事實上這個重大傷病就是說你為什麼要用一個年紀來限制這個重大傷病"},{"start":6647.549,"end":6676.496,"text":"可不可以就是以重大傷病或多重慢性病為前提你們去估算一下這樣的人口大概有多少如果你沒有辦法一步到位就是你任何年齡來你完全都免費但是至少我覺得當人開始生病的時候這個問題跟他就是越接近也越需要那你們可不可以再去估另外一部分的經費就是說只要他領有重大傷病卡或是多重慢性病他就可以因為他已經在這個健保體系"},{"start":6677.316,"end":6698.695,"text":"如果他有意願你們就可以補助這部分會多花你們多少錢因為事實上你們現在所設定的一年健保支出3.6億不是一個非常大筆的數額那你如果再擴大一點的話你的總經費會增加多少我是覺得這部分的經費坦白講不是在你所有的健保預算裡面他真的不是最大筆"},{"start":6699.736,"end":6727.865,"text":"可不可以請署長回應一下我看署長其實也很用力在推動這一點我要肯定那你可不可以你自己有沒有估算過這個都經過精算其實65歲我們先講重大傷病重大傷病大概是100萬人那麼這個65歲以上大概是50萬那麼底下這個65歲以上多重慢性病這邊大概在100多130萬左右所以兩個合起來是180萬"},{"start":6729.345,"end":6749.562,"text":"所以光是180萬的人全部做一個人3000塊的話是54億啦那所以我們只是想說因為也不會一下子全部的180萬一年通通做完不可能所以我們才說那這樣我們健保應該還可以支撐這樣的費用那當然如果做的多了我們再爭取預算那也不要"},{"start":6750.542,"end":6759.027,"text":"這個影響到整個健保的財務所以我們大概是這樣的方式先擴大到這個65歲以上的重大傷病跟多重慢性病這個涵蓋的範圍是180萬人"},{"start":6762.132,"end":6788.677,"text":"對好來因為其實這我們跟健保署有討論過就現況而言的宣導策略然後簽署的高峰會在60歲以上是然後所以才會是說錢用在刀口上然後至於是說一些宣導策略如果有做一些改善的話其實擴大的這部分我們兩邊會密切的合作還有長照是這邊會一起好你剛說的是60對不對啊你現在設定65有沒有可能放寬到60"},{"start":6790.576,"end":6804.993,"text":"我們先執行一步我想我們後面還會進入到主條我拜託衛福部一件事就是你去精算一下你的版本好不好你現在6560跟50你就提供這三種版本到底在你的健保經費裡面"},{"start":6806.154,"end":6827.04,"text":"可能要多少因為我也可以理解很多東西可能很難一步到位但是如果在你們現行要擴大的可以再更擴大的話我覺得這個因為你們剛剛已經講了事實上這件事情一方面是保障病人本身一方面對你整個健保剛剛部長也有講如果越多人去預例這樣子的一個的這個"},{"start":6830.245,"end":6853.522,"text":"去預列這個醫療的這個確認的話那事實上未來再節省你的健保支出那個其實是會有個反饋機制你知道嗎你簽越多事實上你未來要支付的可能就是越少因為你一些無效醫療他會提前去終止所以你應該用一個比較大的水庫的概念來看待這件事而不是只有看說我現在要多支出3.6億10億你應該去精算每一個有簽署的你將來節省的醫療的"},{"start":6859.186,"end":6873.974,"text":"無效的醫療支出可能會有多少你這樣算下來之後你就知道說它反而這邊越增加不是越增加你的健保支出而可能是越節省未來整個醫療的無效支出我覺得你們要有這樣的概念來看待這件事情"},{"start":6874.56,"end":6902.132,"text":"所以我想這是很重要也是一直我們在研議的方向但是我剛剛有報告過其實簽了ADE以後到最後的話大概有七成是吻合的那是早期喔後來慢慢的吻合率比較低為什麼後來做ACP的過程比較變成比較不像引擎所以品質也很重要因為品質之後你才能夠復活到最後真的是在做的時候"},{"start":6902.867,"end":6920.204,"text":"跟當時簽AD是吻合的 不然的話幹嘛當時簽AD變成生命交易而已啊所以我們不但要生命交易 還要有真的能夠協助在他真正到末期的時候有一個很好的一個他合乎他的質量這個我同意啊 所以這個也是過程當你們去檢討的財務方面的部分我們來好啊 我希望你們提出一個財務評估的報告了那另外一個"},{"start":6927.13,"end":6954.663,"text":"這個就是說要不要開放其他機構可以進來做這個諮商你們反對你們在報告裡面就是反對那我也看到醫師公會幾大團體他們其實也是反對但是這件事情我是覺得有討論的空間就是說如果他們做到等同的水準我們應該不是從各團體它的出發點而是從一個病人他可以得到服務如果他可以得到同品質的諮商的"},{"start":6955.343,"end":6972.269,"text":"這樣的一個品質那是不是可以去要求就是說你可以要求那些其他想參與的這些專業團體你要達到我這樣的要求就是你這個諮商過程你要達到我的標準而不是一開始就去否決掉說不行啊你們通通不能進來我覺得這件事情剛剛部長您在講說是開放的態度嘛在這件事情的討論"},{"start":6976.75,"end":6980.633,"text":"我是蠻希望你也是秉持一個比較開放的態度而不是一開始就直接否決了應該是可以有討論的空間這個可不可以再演繹因為討論法條還有時間你們回去再想想看好不好那個意思是要不要回應一下來市長"},{"start":6993.524,"end":7007.962,"text":"簡單回應一下就是說現在講的執行場域其實我們覺得病人在哪裡這件事情會是比較重要所以我們才會覺得是說以現階段直接的是說要修法改擴大場域這件事情不如是說我們回過頭來在我們"},{"start":7009.924,"end":7018.046,"text":"目前設定的TARGET這邊在執行的過程當中有沒有什麼可以去做調整的我們目前的方向上面會是這樣為什麼因為在做諮商的過程當中我必須對醫療介入措施對這個疾病的癒後要有很清楚的描述那個諮商的誇題才會好"},{"start":7028.129,"end":7052.324,"text":"現階段的大家的各自的專業其實是因為太鑽了所以對Horizontal這一塊怎麼樣去講的醫療接觸措施對幾半年以後其實我們會覺得是說這個地方還需要一些共識這樣子的話才會有好的品質所以部長其實有特別講的是說現階段其實需要凝聚更多的共識以上好那如果是這樣子的話我覺得你們該去研議因為像護理機構跟長照機構其實會有蠻多是"},{"start":7055.446,"end":7071.332,"text":"他可能要育立一組這樣的一個病人而且他本身其實也有醫事人員所以像這一個或許就是你們第一步可以優先去考量的就是說跟醫療更接近的更相近的他不見得都是在醫院這些人都是在護理之家他可能就在長照機構裡面那你這個就不開放嗎你還要他回到那個診所嗎或者是回到醫院才可以去做這樣的一個"},{"start":7082.257,"end":7093.99,"text":"諮商嗎我覺得剛剛市長講一句話很好病人在哪裡你就應該是以這個為前提吧對不對所以這一塊我覺得是有討論空間部長你怎麼表示一下"},{"start":7094.881,"end":7118.016,"text":"我想以病人為中心是我們的目標但是我剛剛有報告過如果在品質上面或者他討論的內容AD討論的內容需要怎麼樣的專業人員當時會有一個諮商為什麼需要那些人其實是有原因的那這樣的品質如果能夠維護品質那當然我們以病人為中心"},{"start":7119.497,"end":7140.216,"text":"來調整我們就可以來討論了好我希望是以病人為中心而不是說團體之間各有成見說什麼團體不行那最後一個問題我問你就是說最近有一個有民間有醫師他們做一個調查就是說86%的民眾支持自主善中然後他們"},{"start":7142.116,"end":7157.136,"text":"就是提出來是一個PAD那衛福部你們對於他這樣子的一個調查跟他們的倡議你們的立場是什麼就是說他們的進一步是說醫師他可以給藥但是病人呢"},{"start":7157.937,"end":7177.47,"text":"決定自己要不要服藥就是說醫師協助死亡就是台大公衛研究他們做出來的這一塊在台灣有討論空間嗎還是這只是民間的倡議 衛福部怎麼看待這件事情好的我們一切要以專業跟人性的關懷來看這件事情所以"},{"start":7178.976,"end":7203.625,"text":"支持自主善終這應該是要百分之百吧大家也要善終能夠自主性的那我們怎麼樣真正讓他有自主性怎麼樣讓他善終才是重要的事情那我只提醒一點就是說當澳洲在提倡所謂的讓他縮短生命的一個措施"},{"start":7205.205,"end":7217.853,"text":"來減少他痛苦這件事情我不想把它講成安樂死其實就是這種味道什麼叫安樂死就是intention因為他太痛苦了所以你想要把他縮短生命但是你"},{"start":7219.037,"end":7236.149,"text":"所以澳洲馬上宣布就是說如果今天社會關注這個議題首先你應該去看看末期病人你是不是都把他照顧好了讓他不痛了讓他不要那麼辛苦讓他不要覺得他是家人的累贅讓家屬也可以安心的來照顧病人"},{"start":7237.169,"end":7257.078,"text":"如果你這樣的話他要珍惜每一天的生命啊怎麼會去想要去縮短生命所以他們說應該要先去推安寧環的醫療如果你把安寧環冒起病人的安寧環的醫療照顧好的話推得好的話不是沒有發生安樂死這個爭議就變成比較個案事件所以我們台灣我們台灣如果真的"},{"start":7257.958,"end":7272.815,"text":"推自主三中的時候還有一個很重要的工作你有沒有把安寧緩和醫療把病人照顧好如果把病人照顧好的話我們再來談下一個沒辦法解決的時候我們是不是有更加能夠讓他自主我們再來談"},{"start":7274.136,"end":7288.617,"text":"好 那所以回到我們的病主法我們真的 因為已經通過了法律我們就應該要好好的施行 好好的落實那我們重點應該先擺在這邊所以希望部長你們回去再好好研議今天委員提出非常多的議題"},{"start":7290.7,"end":7312.088,"text":"就是不要像你們今天的報告,好像鐵板一塊每一橋都不可以,每一橋都是緩疫我覺得可以,你剛剛講一句話很好,你是開放的那我們就用開放的態度,大家好好的來研議以病人最好的為原則,以病人為中心我們看這個法可以怎麼樣修得更好,好不好?好的,謝謝好,謝謝王委員,謝謝好,謝謝張浩偉,謝謝王委員,謝謝部長"},{"start":7320.758,"end":7333.807,"text":"來 接下來請楊瓊英委員來做巡檔謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請部長"},{"start":7341.146,"end":7353.695,"text":"今天這個議題我們從2019年實施病人自主權利法是亞洲第一部保障病人自主權利的一個法律那當然透過了預例醫療照護的諮詢"},{"start":7356.917,"end":7382.454,"text":"的諮商的過程當中患者跟家人深度的去溝通那經由醫護人員給予專業的意見在家人及親友的見證下完成預立醫療的這個決定那病人有權利決定人生最後的醫療處置避免讓自己不可逆昏迷或者成為永久的這個職務人但是我們看到就是說病人自主法"},{"start":7383.434,"end":7399.518,"text":"自主權利法上路了5年之後呢 迄今約大概僅有10萬人簽署那簽署率大概是0.45%那簽署率就已經這麼低了 在簽署之後會去執行的一定會更低 一定會更低"},{"start":7401.639,"end":7415.424,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下本席想要請教部長也就是說我們看到目前的障礙許多的民眾還有很多人根本不知道什麼是日立醫療的一個決定"},{"start":7417.364,"end":7442.899,"text":"那第二個就是說甚至有一些年輕的朋友他知道但是我們的民風比較保守年輕的朋友他也不敢給長輩講也不敢給長輩講這也是因素之一那所以在整個生死話題當中因為我們比較保守他會視為一個禁忌那請問政府你剛剛頻頻點頭就是說我說是還有很多人不知道"},{"start":7443.839,"end":7462.293,"text":"這個法令那你們要怎麼樣去宣傳讓病人他了解自己擁有的一個尊嚴善終的一個權利請做說明好謝謝委員的關心我想這個是非常重要的一個討論的議題那這個部分其實"},{"start":7463.732,"end":7478.157,"text":"醫事師有做相當深入的研究,等一下簡單報告那您委員提到說我們的文化的確是你也很了解我們民眾我在30多年前在日本那間研究所的時候我就是做這方面的研究"},{"start":7479.042,"end":7494.837,"text":"那其實當時的結論就是我們台東方人跟俄美人不太一樣 俄美人都用尖叫的啦嚇下來啦我們台灣人喔 北部他就給我們嚇黑啦用講的就好 一個眼神可能就是齁但是這樣子也造成敵人臨床上"},{"start":7495.638,"end":7518.057,"text":"最後的選擇是很不穩定的您也說在這方面非常專精但是每一個國家的樣態不一樣特別提出我們的民風所以也針對這些的問題點面向點那我們要怎麼樣去做既然一個法通過當然我們希望能夠執行之"},{"start":7519.458,"end":7538.752,"text":"人民來自己來選擇但是如果說我們一個法通過連民眾都不知道那政府有責任喔來請做說明我們要怎麼樣宣導讓人民可以知道好 那宣導絕對是要做的那至於說它的原因先實際比較低的原因意思是有一直做研究可不可以簡單請他講一下好 請做說明"},{"start":7540.487,"end":7565.102,"text":"我先簡單講一下其實有兩大原因一個是民眾的認知就誠如剛剛委員講的另外一塊是費用然後民眾認知部分的話其實在做宣導的部分我們大概第一件事情其實也歡迎現場的立委就是說我們的1月1月是病主日然後6月是我們的棄捐然後10月是病安寧所以我們大概就是跟那個病"},{"start":7566.002,"end":7589.825,"text":"契捐病毒中心這邊合作也就是說每一年其實在1月6月10月的時候會有帶狀的一個宣導活動要跟你討論的是部長還在這裡目前我們所做的步驟就是如此但是他的答案是不盡理想所以部長我再請部長部長就這個宣導的方式你們去研擬"},{"start":7590.686,"end":7603.94,"text":"什麼樣的方式不要我們回我們質詢的時候你就依照目前所做本期已經告訴你目前你所做的方法已經達不到你所預估的成效所以你們有精進的空間嘛好不好好好去討論第二個議題市長剛才說的有就是費用問題是資商"},{"start":7609.345,"end":7637.601,"text":"諮商是病人自主權利法的一個最重要的核心是不是所以在這樣的一個情況之下那麼諮商的費用那到底要怎麼處理有委員提案是希望由公家來處理剛剛在討論說這個經費我們似乎要循序漸進開放的態度請教部長你的看法好我們就逐步逐步漸進嘛你現在逐步你預計要怎麼做"},{"start":7639.465,"end":7669.225,"text":"你逐步預計要怎麼做我們一直在開放從去年7月開放然後5月6月開放比較更多的人你預計5月份再開放什麼呢就有180萬個人是是沒關係我們也贊同循序漸進要迎合我們的預算而且還要有社會的面向那你認為你在5月今天就5月1號了嗎那你預計你5月份你會再繼續怎麼做呢請做說明"},{"start":7671.707,"end":7692.421,"text":"來 市長請回答沒關係 市長細節部分細節部分的話就是我們健保署這邊的話會開放連同門診有包括失智類似像這樣有65歲以上的病人其實是可以接受這樣子的一個諮商服務是由健保這邊會做一個處理我們的設定點是在65歲以上嘛失智"},{"start":7694.602,"end":7719.741,"text":"有重大傷病 他其實有五大類的一個重大傷病嗎對 有五大類的疾病就六十五歲以上 從五月份開始是嗎本期就是希望部長 本期希望說我們讓社會大眾會知道政府到底在做什麼那民眾有什麼樣的權益我們循序漸進都OK那主要的是讓病人他能夠非常的有尊嚴這是大家共同的一個目標嘛"},{"start":7721.943,"end":7749.854,"text":"接下來最後一個議題本席跟你討論今天是5月1號那麼台大醫院工會前天發出的聲明部長你有瞭解到這個問題嗎因為他說院方日前針對於勞動節進行出勤的調查他只有兩個選項一個選項是同意到院工作但是選擇移到國定假日第二個選項是同意到院方工作但是以加班的方式來"},{"start":7751.575,"end":7771.027,"text":"但是沒有依照勞基法明文規定依法休假一日當天不到院工作這是工會所提出的您知道這個事情嗎?報告員我了解而且台大的回應是說他這個表單是針對來上班的人讓他選擇是要用補假的方式或者是加班"},{"start":7772.328,"end":7789.873,"text":"會問的方式來處理這是台大醫院的回應當然我們會去進一步的了解一定要了解清楚因為公會非常清楚的就是說兩個選項沒有第三項依法的選項那是已經來上班的人那是已經來上班那誰敢不來上班呢"},{"start":7790.871,"end":7807.218,"text":"當然以權力來講他是可以不來上班啊以權力來講可以不來上班 這個有錄音錄影部長這是您說的更是 部長我們還是要好好的去溝通因為我們知道這個問題的重點是在於"},{"start":7808.839,"end":7830.571,"text":"醫護人員的休假的權益 怎麼樣去增補人力 增列津貼這才是真正的要解決醫護人力不足的問題 本市當然不希望我們的工會跟院方大家有所爭執 這樣子對病人也不好我們希望達到三全其美 但是你必須要好好的去照顧這些醫護人員"},{"start":7832.052,"end":7858.003,"text":"當然當然所以我也希望你詳細去給他查清楚因為公會既然提出了這樣的方向又在今天的五一勞動節我們也希望可以讓我們的勞工大家可以快樂嘛好好的來工作嘛這是在醫院裡面也是你非常重要的一個面向嘛好你去查清楚然後給本席說明資料好的好的我會請台大再說明清楚好謝謝好謝謝袁偉謝謝部長"},{"start":7863.304,"end":7876.419,"text":"重新公告這個廖偉強委員執行完之後我們休息十分鐘不然我再提醒一下好不好我們當然要提高服務量人剛才王委員、楊委員都有提到要提高服務量人也要兼顧品質對不對"},{"start":7879.411,"end":7902.783,"text":"那個毓力毓揚的智商嘛,對不對?那剛剛市長是答覆未來期許目標2萬,每年2萬變成4萬嘛那你2萬要變成4萬要怎麼變嘛?你用什麼方法變嘛?除了健保署現在擴大65歲重大疾病等剛剛署長已經跟委員會報告,那是180萬人"},{"start":7905.643,"end":7930.919,"text":"不包含健康的,不包含其他自願要來做的,對不對那裡180萬,即便那裡除以4萬,原本是除以2萬,你要90年才做得完你除以4萬,還要45年才做得完,你們怎麼去提高服務的量呢然後做一個諮商要做多久時間,然後到目前為止要去做諮商的掛號要掛一個多月"},{"start":7933.946,"end":7938.888,"text":"請面對事實啦講清楚啦不能這樣處理啦請莊委員謝謝趙委面對事實就發起來了請衛福部邱部長還有我們趙副司副司長來"},{"start":7957.517,"end":7960.399,"text":"還有請我們石崇良署長委員好部長好柏中是你算這兩天我都給你額漏了你知不知道每次問我說會額漏部長怎麼樣我說這個"},{"start":7977.182,"end":7995.415,"text":"有學術的經驗,做到高雄,還有台灣大學,還有東京大學,還有哲學立法院,我最主要是勇於認識,為人誠懇,所以我不要說是財是所,意思是我幫你按讚,這樣就對了,但是我的目的就是,你下去沒有特色,"},{"start":8000.386,"end":8012.056,"text":"我昨天練書練到兩點因為針對今天委員的垂行重點都是我們國家的重要方向我必須要來拜讀我給你推薦一本很好讀的,我那本有夠讚叫做《核廢料蘭嶼儲存場設置真相調查報告書》這本寫的"},{"start":8023.818,"end":8029.987,"text":"這差不多63頁調查報告書63頁然後附件加一加一共是746頁我一禮拜我一禮拜都把它拆掉我從第一頁到最後一頁我都把它拆掉連附件我都看連我辦公室都看"},{"start":8039.039,"end":8052.215,"text":"那我今天本席要來跟你就教的就是說啊倒也不是醫院的硬體的一個建設啦是在講說蘭嶼的醫療這個嚴重的不足這應該柏中你也應該都知道啦我來跟你講一個故事啦就是說"},{"start":8056.243,"end":8060.106,"text":"民國60年 1971年的時候 核一廠動工那時候動工之後 叫你說你就有一些核廢料會造出來所以那個時候就評估五種核廢料儲存方式第一款叫做"},{"start":8072.355,"end":8095.112,"text":"廢礦坑 後來就去找 找到金瓜石但是呢 礦坑太潮濕 居民會使用礦坑的水源所以打岔就沒用第二種就是舊日均地下屯兵地 台中結果呢 那個深度 地面大概二十公尺而已那坑道狹窄 汽車也沒有在裡面運作 所以又打岔"},{"start":8096.033,"end":8109.599,"text":"第三個就新竹 想要放大清山來但是交通不方便 又打岔第四個呢 東沙島 是要投海 海拋還是啦 離菲律賓一百二十公里而已走那邊就趕走啦 走那邊國際國際會說你還笑 我怎麼跟你說這個啊 但是喔 來了 重點來了設在離島 蘭嶼跟澎湖等14個方案"},{"start":8122.392,"end":8126.675,"text":"我告訴你這就是說,不然蘭嶼有夠衰,因為在離本島最近,還有鋼靠,還有紅酒,最主要成本最低,所以它就中獎了,蘭嶼就中獎了。所以我要跟部長說明的就是說,在蘭嶼如果蓋一間便宜,那不是叫做選項,"},{"start":8143.854,"end":8147.959,"text":"那叫做政府的責任1971年到現在 你看這麼久時間過了2018年 2016年 我看蔡總統 這個以前很聽你的"},{"start":8160.768,"end":8167.232,"text":"跟蘭嶼人道歉2018年核廢料蘭嶼儲存場的設置真相調查報告書就是我建議的一本書出爐同年也提供給住在蘭嶼的居民一些健檢當然政府階段也有補充一些我給你看一下這個歷史研究給你看一下就是在2019年的時候"},{"start":8186.602,"end":8191.373,"text":"原民會那時候就照一本書所以我為什麼叫保證你要去看現在跟你說的都不用說什麼對一個總統對一個總統都官方的文件"},{"start":8196.92,"end":8202.624,"text":"他就說不然來建議提升 叫做分院 部立台東區的分院就對了就是說這裡要設一個病院再來就開始台東的衛生局就開始去協調要怎麼用地然後呢 再來2022年就開始說 原民會跟台東管政府來協調原民保留地要怎麼整修 連監察院後來也去了"},{"start":8220.555,"end":8235.562,"text":"我這裡有一張 監察院去做什麼 你知道嗎監察院調查主管機關 救蘭嶼 達悟族人 權益維護的重大建設政策規劃跟執行是否投射的時候去履刊啦 履刊要做什麼 你知道嗎醫院設置的問題從頭到尾都在講說蘭嶼就是要設醫院啦這都要修正 你知道嗎我是要叫石崇亮署長你起來 董事長你就是署長嘛"},{"start":8248.972,"end":8256.338,"text":"蘭嶼就是要設分院嘛這有什麼好講的有什麼好爭辯的所以我現在要講的就是說以前國民黨夭壽國民黨以前真的很夭壽要放十萬趟"},{"start":8271.553,"end":8275.237,"text":"我2011年我背小英蔡英文總統去蘭嶼啦我去看到的現場慘不忍睹啦以前有人騙說要去罐頭工廠說去下去後 齁 青年就就業結果有去罐頭工廠嗎 有大咖的罐頭 55高輪的 都放合會了不對 你可能不記得齁"},{"start":8299.366,"end":8312.813,"text":"我就說你要去因為你叫做衛福部部長我覺得你要去要去看一下說當年的政府怎麼去讀讀不然莫名其妙2018年蔡英文不會去道歉嘛不是啦 做總統後面道歉的就是說當初要去這個蘭嶼要放這個核廢料儲存場沒有蘭嶼的人知道 人家騙那產生的是什麼"},{"start":8327.93,"end":8342.079,"text":"你如果說要顧老百姓的健康就很簡單啊藍瑜那個核肺療藏你給他刷照啊可不可能 不可能啊十碗湯要刷一堆第二天就是 有人刷照啊可不可能 也不可能啊兩種都不可能那怎麼辦那就政府的責任就來了你來人顧健康嘛"},{"start":8352.062,"end":8357.984,"text":"我就不管說什麼蔡英文有沒有承諾什麼賴清德總統有沒有承諾 兩件事政府就是該做不然你合理吧 你特赤人嘛那個石中梁署長我這樣講合理吧合理喔 你也頂頭喔 欸 趙復師合理喔 你們都說合理喔你們就互相在推啦那些小外星人喔 叫做你趙復師的啦"},{"start":8376.493,"end":8383.735,"text":"我們如果去賣他之後 他有話說的啦 他們就撒來撒去啦所以我有具體要求啦 柏中 盡量訂案啦盡量齁 你們整個新建計劃盡量出來 匡列預算啦稍微對不起 王委員我不是說結凍 我在說這個歷史這件事說得清楚你譬如說齁 我說我們屏東就好了 我們過去屏東好東西"},{"start":8403.359,"end":8416.751,"text":"蔡英文都要 總統都要屏東 蘇貞昌院長也要屏東我覺得各個縣市去照顧 全國都照顧 合理你說賴總統現在在說健康台灣對不對偏鄉醫療你要提升啊我記錄給你聽啦我們屏東隆總 屏東隆總喔 才94億去好了嗎屏東部立醫院 才36億"},{"start":8430.097,"end":8433.678,"text":"起好了嘛 現在在起嘛屏東旅遊醫院 起電館八樓 第二席一樓蘇貞昌院長怎麼說你知道嗎 一次大會 要人給人 要錢給錢經費無上限 我不跟你說 我不跟你說 你看 Google 你看 Google 蘇貞昌經費無上限 台東勒"},{"start":8454.025,"end":8457.246,"text":"過去政府的不當的政策 荼毒整個蘭嶼我們不用騎個便宜的人所以我現在不是在跟你說 蓋醫院是不是選項 不是我講的是 在蘭嶼蓋醫院是叫做責任而且無可推卸的一個責任啊你這樣在那裡討論在那裡討論來討論去 上來上去快去啦"},{"start":8479.336,"end":8488.099,"text":"醫護會不是這樣說?不是你自己起床把我扯一下而已嗎?你不是要起床把我托回來嗎?據理承諾的嗎?醫護會要替他報告,報告現在的進度啦不不,我又不替他進度,這叫責任我請部長據理承諾"},{"start":8495.339,"end":8524.015,"text":"好 我想我們醫護會因為當時是土地的問題也沒有上來上去因為從108年其實在部內裡面就一直討論醫院的一個興建的一個計畫去評估然後土地當時是有問題的譬如說原來的土地那邊說不可以 那森林所在的地我們就亂去別的地方大量管政部在找當然現在有些地方看起來已經克服的差不多"},{"start":8524.355,"end":8539.557,"text":"都扣有差不多沒問題的嘛我們現在就是今天提一個醫院新建的計畫來提公建計畫在這當中我們也一直在補充補充應該有的量能啦今年創的開備啦"},{"start":8546.642,"end":8561.67,"text":"我們15筆土地裡面上面就是有2筆是被佔用的啦那另外這些土地其實是還需要我不跟你佔用那是什麼去排除,我說你的新建計劃我現在跟他說新建計劃,我告訴你你不給他具體答案,待會兒陳映會給你問得越嚴重我沒得騙你"},{"start":8566.772,"end":8573.775,"text":"因為我們還是需要跟地方在這邊需要他的量比如說他的衛生索你告訴我 時間要當時我不敢 藍瑜在那裡我不敢退陳映萌但是我自己做我對台東的關心可以嘛你屏東旅遊醫院人家這樣開始去去白樓 怕卡住去白樓三年六個月喔"},{"start":8594.056,"end":8600.719,"text":"去八樓 燈館八樓 地下一樓 開一個515喔你這要去多大 要三樓嗎三樓而已耶屏東旅遊院是137個床位耶你這要幾個床位不會超過40個吧好 那個細節是不是我簡單問你嘛 我要突顯出來嘛我要突顯出來嘛 你這幾個床位37吧 30幾吧"},{"start":8622.503,"end":8633.658,"text":"離了三十幾屏東旅遊醫院一百三十七個蓋地上八樓 地下一樓三年半五月五年你這個比較有貴賺錢啦具體承諾不定好不好今年新建計劃提出來"},{"start":8639.619,"end":8652.222,"text":"好 好 好 可以齁 你自己說的喔 待會請問你幾位要出來 我來講 謝謝好 謝謝莊瑞雄委員的質詢接下來我們請廖偉祥委員質詢謝謝主席 有請部長好 請邱部長"},{"start":8668.695,"end":8680.409,"text":"委員好部長好今天我們討論這個議題是非常有意義的是那我想要請教一下部長可不可以簡單的用一句話來告訴國人什麼是我們今天討論的育立醫療"},{"start":8684.008,"end":8704.308,"text":"毅力醫療就是希望民眾們能夠早一點來討論未來當他進入到幾種狀況不管是末期或者是足人或永久性的傷害沒辦法恢復的情況之下他的一個醫療的選擇有哪些他先做自主性的選擇"},{"start":8705.53,"end":8726.227,"text":"對所以簡單來講因為為什麼要先開這個頭我想很多人對於這個題目可能不是很清楚所以育立醫療就是簡單來講就是在自己還能夠清楚表達的時候先和醫療團隊討論然後寫下萬一將來遇到重大疾病或者是沒有辦法清楚表達的時候"},{"start":8727.168,"end":8748.643,"text":"可以想要接受或拒絕哪些維持生命治療或人工營養的正式決定確保自己的醫療選擇能被尊重嘛簡單來講我們要做一個這個開頭也算是宣講宣導一下所以我們針對於這件事情啊現行的這個我們今天要討論的吳懷呼就是跟"},{"start":8749.463,"end":8776.725,"text":"成效到底是怎麼樣然後以及為什麼成效不佳它的障礙有哪些可能包含著費用包含著宣傳不佳包含著國人觀念那所以第一個就是想要問現在育立醫療照護的這個諮商ACP是採取類似自費的制度那它是成為民眾參與的比較大的障礙那根據媒體的報導或者是叫做不完全統計從最便宜可能有2000元"},{"start":8778.146,"end":8784.209,"text":"到最貴8000元等等還有價格不低那收費標準也比較混亂一點那根據統計2023年全台簽署這個育歷醫療決定就是AD的部分人數僅佔成年人口的可能0.35%那剛剛也有人講到0.45%總之就是蠻低的"},{"start":8797.316,"end":8819.503,"text":"所以簡單來講推行這個很好的政策但是成效不佳那當然顯見的剛剛有講到第一個障礙可能跟費用有關那有關於這個部分嘉義的陽明醫院的院長謝錦祥有指出ACP的人力成本高昂那現行的健保未納入給付導致醫院這個轉嫁成本至民眾形成經濟篩選的現象"},{"start":8821.864,"end":8848.992,"text":"而且此問題在非都會區更嚴重那六都簽署的量佔總數的72%而且其中的台北市呢佔36%那也凸顯了這個城鄉資源的差距所以目前這個ACP是納入健保給付的現行事辦計劃是涵蓋剛剛有提到幾種比如說比較嚴重的病患癌末、前途失智或是公告重症居家照護等四大類"},{"start":8849.972,"end":8870.498,"text":"那我們就想要請問像這個部分未來我們是不是要擴大至全民因為我剛剛也有委員說2026年的時候你們過去有宣示說2026年要擴大至全民但是今天的書面報告又提到尚需要深入的政策研議與詳細的預算規劃然後帶各界達成共識及實務運作更趨完備再行通盤監討修正"},{"start":8878.78,"end":8890.062,"text":"那我是覺得說那這個好像是跟你們原本預期的有很大的差距所以想要請問部長那你們現在具體的規劃跟配套細節到底是什麼遇到了什麼困難"},{"start":8891.018,"end":8914.526,"text":"好 我想如果能夠全民都來簽署這是非常好的理想那這當然牽涉到我們也檢討為什麼低的因素當然諮商費用是一個對 剛剛講過 費用一個重點那剛剛您一開始就幫忙先導真的很感謝我必須要再先導一下如果能夠簽討這個異例異組其實是愛的表現什麼叫愛的表現呢"},{"start":8920.481,"end":8936.856,"text":"就是愛你的家人因為你的子女到最後不曉得這個爸爸到底要不要插管要不要做什麼很痛苦如果你能夠事先表示好的話讓醫療人員能夠按照爸爸媽媽的一個心願去做"},{"start":8938.306,"end":8955.606,"text":"所以就是你去做好屹立一族其實是愛你家人的一個表現啦這個不是金錢所能衡量的那當然那個醫術師也做了很多的一個規劃健保署也一直在努力啦當然這個要配合財務的規劃啦"},{"start":8957.408,"end":8974.922,"text":"對 謝謝所以我再進一步問因為剛剛有提到目前規劃大概是目前有的這個事辦是大概180萬人大概是54億然後要分階段那你們現在有沒有比較具體的實施的方式因為其實很重要的一點就是剛剛你們都有提到"},{"start":8976.644,"end":8983.029,"text":"這個其實是健康投資所以你做得好其實這個應該是絕對長期對於健保的財務是更好的對於整個財務的狀況應該是更好的所以你的問題是你們應該要具體的去可不可以給本席報告因為你們目前就只講到這180萬元無私益的"},{"start":8998.2,"end":9016.695,"text":"那這只是短期你們擔心短期一下子衝擊很大可是剛剛也講到不可能180萬人都去用嘛你要包含宣導還有包含觀念所以我在想這全民試用的部分是不是應該儘速推動你才有可能才有可能達到這個所謂的健康投資然後也可以在這個整個財務的狀況之下更加的有餘裕"},{"start":9020.158,"end":9046.592,"text":"我們一定循序漸進就好像說所以我知道你循序漸進但是部長我希望你們可以給本席一個具體的你們評估目前的衝擊以及你們打算的目標你到底在幾年你現在這一兩年你打算這樣子180萬人那明年達到多少什麼時候全民適用是不是可以在2026年達到你們所謂的標準或者是你做不到你要到2027年因為我想我們就在這裡做一個"},{"start":9047.372,"end":9063.323,"text":"做一個這個宣示所以希望請部長給我們一個具體的規劃不要用剛剛所謂說還要再討論還要再通盤檢討這樣子去拖延時間我相信你也是想要推動這個所以我覺得也要給自己一個目標去鞭策好不好"},{"start":9063.763,"end":9076.389,"text":"那再來喔因為剛剛有講到費用的部分啦所以就回扣到這個納入健保的部分所以剛剛有說有甚至有這個很多的有一個65歲的阿姨啊這個媒體訪問啊這國際旅遊的這個領隊啊她退休之後其實她的這個財務狀況應該還不錯而且她觀念也算是比較開放但她還是不懂她就說她還是不懂為什麼要花錢去了解與選擇自己怎麼死"},{"start":9088.715,"end":9107.666,"text":"那最後也是聽到是免費他才去報名所以這在證明了剛剛就說這個要趕快把你們的目標達成然後另外呢目前醫院也採取這個團體諮商所以現在就講到觀念的部分雖然說他可以降低人均成本也是一個調整的方式可是現行的團體諮商很多都是"},{"start":9108.386,"end":9125.368,"text":"數位平身的這個陌生人一體參加整個氣氛其實也是有點像是大型團購現場就會比較覺得跟我們國人的觀念有所衝擊因為他對於生死的事情可能不像是國外可以接受這個陌生人一起的這種形式這部分是不是也有可以調整的空間"},{"start":9128.864,"end":9153.781,"text":"謝謝委員指教其實所以我們去年有針對團體智商這邊然後開始做一些算是輔導作業發現是說如果是家族朋友一起的這一種效果最好對沒錯然後所以在這個地方我們其實已經開始針對醫院有做團體這邊有做一些輔導然後有一些給一些建議然後這些具體的建議要轉成文字變成衛福部這邊出的一些"},{"start":9154.221,"end":9159.989,"text":"所謂的建議或指引的部分的話應該是今年下半年才會逐步的討論不過已經有發現我們輔導團隊已經有發現相關的問題以上很好對這就是我要跟你們講的這個問題要"},{"start":9167.183,"end":9181.779,"text":"盡速的把它推動然後可以請到所有你們的具體的檢討報告和詳細的文字內容提供給本席辦公室好沒問題那再來就是全台約200多家的醫療機構有ACP服務可是全台的77%的鄉鎮市區是沒有諮商據點分佈不均"},{"start":9185.629,"end":9208.126,"text":"那今天的報告有提出要擴大ACP的規模但沒有具體寫到措施是什麼所以我們在想這部分是不是要針對偏鄉地區可不可以結合長照或銀髮關懷據點開設這種行動的諮商站那也參考這個日本的在宅醫療聯繫的模式與精神由巡迴的團隊提供服務也是一種推廣的方式"},{"start":9209.327,"end":9231.061,"text":"是不是可以這個都可以演繹演繹要做嘛要去做而且最重要是要維護他當時簽ACP的品質那我們也希望多利用到我們社區的醫療團隊是社區的醫療團隊我們鼓勵他們接受一定的訓練以後現在的接受比便利商店更多"},{"start":9231.561,"end":9250.193,"text":"所以部長我今天提出的問題都希望你們儘速研議完之後給本席一個報告因為我們都是針對剛剛講的三大方向提出的現在的困境要告訴部長請你們趕快去做出評估跟推動那再來還有一個也是觀念的部分民眾對於這個病毒存在三大誤解32%認同認為是這個安樂死28%擔心簽署後"},{"start":9256.917,"end":9281.855,"text":"遭放棄治療那19%認為是違反宗教教義然後此外還有家屬介入決策的傳統文化還很深那在2022年的高雄榮總的案例也顯示38%的AD簽署者遭親屬反對執行這都是實務上面你們要去克服的問題那另外我主要是要講那現行的法規的這個部分"},{"start":9282.375,"end":9295.785,"text":"第九條要求二等親的家屬參與諮商那是不是會造成這個反而造成家庭壓力那也是不是可以修法允許這個獨居者經社工評估後可以免除親屬認同"},{"start":9298.786,"end":9313.941,"text":"先補充一下就是剛剛委員推行獨居者這部分其實目前如果獨居者自己簽左右的切結書其實醫院還是可以進行諮詢因為實務面就看到現在獨居長者其實相對逐步在增加當中這個在"},{"start":9314.922,"end":9334.119,"text":"已經做了相關的處理然後進一步我們在講的是其實要善終的部分的話剛剛委員有特別講到周圍親友特別是家人的阻止的這件事也是當初在立法的時候為什麼希望家屬一起參與透過家屬參與的時候在最後那一個決定"},{"start":9335.78,"end":9363.069,"text":"才比較容易尊重病人的一個自主就是當初在設計的時候有這樣子的一個考量但是結果論就是我剛剛講出來就是結果論所以還是一樣費用宣導跟觀念還是有很大的問題和精進的空間其實你們要去檢討這個部分所以我最後就要跟你們講到一件事情就是剛剛也有提到宣傳的部分我們有很多的政策宣傳宣導衛教說實在的內容都偏向深色難懂然後也很無趣"},{"start":9363.729,"end":9374.413,"text":"所以要做到好的效果蠻難的所以要請問部長一下如果某一個政令或是衛教宣導在你們臉書上要破千萬次的瀏覽量平均要花多少經費抓一個數字可以嗎我不知道請委員指教你抓不出來一個數字對不對其實以你們過去的你們過去的這些你看都才1.9萬次3208次1.6萬次其實都很少所以應該要去想更"},{"start":9393.101,"end":9411.869,"text":"更好更創意的方式所以我現在就告訴你一件事現在南投有一間醫院有一個小編他打破了宣導的困難內容無聊的刻板印象讓在他的衛教的宣導影片有很好的效果他大概的成績像下面半年內追蹤數增加了4.5萬單月瀏覽次數突破了數千萬互動也破了100多萬"},{"start":9416.531,"end":9442.37,"text":"所以你剛剛可能你們不曉得狀況可是你們在宣導上面的經費是非常高的所以我們在省經費預算的時候都知道可是這個小編他卻說他的薪水就是三萬元打死甚至沒有額外的花媒體採購的費用那院長這就是一個妥妥的人才所以他一PO出他三萬打死的時候他馬上一堆人下面挖角他然後可以印證這樣的人在我們的業界一定是很搶手"},{"start":9443.351,"end":9471.244,"text":"那釋逢今天是五一勞動節那我覺得當然講說這樣的薪水叫做壓榨可能過於沉重但現實面就是你們在這方面的宣導可能只靠這樣的熱情的小編是沒辦法留他太久所以我們是不是可以請我們的部長去了解一下這個案子然後也要真的下定決心讓這個在醫療體系裡面的行政人員這些人才應該要有更好的待遇才不會白白流失這個人才可以嗎"},{"start":9471.584,"end":9487.808,"text":"我們一定珍惜人才所以要改善他們的待遇這才是今天這個質詢的重要的重要的這個意義謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝廖瑞祥委員的質詢我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":9509.183,"end":9517.687,"text":"因為它是先弄那個,它們這樣,因為它是比較圓的那它就放畫,放畫一起這樣,然後這個板子,然後這個畫跟這個板子"},{"start":9529.917,"end":9530.738,"text":"好好吃著吃著"},{"start":9552.276,"end":9552.516,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10105.68,"end":10106.641,"text":"好 請各位回座 繼續開會"},{"start":10132.455,"end":10135.278,"text":"好 謝謝主席 是不是要請邱部長請部長委員好"},{"start":10141.96,"end":10169.64,"text":"部長今年正式邁入這個超高齡社會五個就有一個是65歲以上所以這個活得久已經大概不是很大的問題但是要活得好那活得好的話其實也難免生老病死所以其實不要講到說65歲以上的人包括我自己我跟我朋友之間在談的我們都講說害怕生不如死我自己見證過我自己兩個"},{"start":10171.981,"end":10187.661,"text":"父母他們都是中風的然後躺在醫院的很久的那在這種狀況裡面我也面臨過很多的情境所以都求善中並不是只有年紀大的人在想對我來講我就是那"},{"start":10188.442,"end":10192.405,"text":"我甚至講跟朋友之間開玩笑就是說我75歲我大概自己如果沒有安樂死的這個法律的話我要自己去自殺那我告訴我的孩子說我是自主的而且是我很開心的我願意這麼做的那希望他們不要情緒不好所以我經常跟我兒子講說當我死亡的時候"},{"start":10211.436,"end":10228.889,"text":"你要給我還保障不要給我放水牢我的意思是說我不要水障我在講的是生和死的溝通我經常告訴我的孩子我怎麼想免得到那一天的時候他不知道母親怎麼想那在這種狀況裡面今天的修法我必須要講說有的人希望說放寬ACP的經費ACP的執行場域去委託代理人的資格放寬等等"},{"start":10240.658,"end":10269.855,"text":"那大家講都講說這個簽署率只有0.45只有10.3萬人我還要你看到一個數字這個數字不是只有10.3萬人0.45的簽署率而是如果我問你已經簽署的到最後真的有去執行的比率有多高已經簽署的真正去落實這個簽署的人的意志那真正執行有多高呢"},{"start":10271.075,"end":10280.82,"text":"好 這個我想意思是有研究 不過我先跟委員做初步的報告那因為時間相當的短嘛 2019到現在大概有70% 有這麼高嗎到最後真正執行率 吻合率吻合率那個是你們推估的"},{"start":10294.246,"end":10301.169,"text":"其實有人是認為說 但是這是推估的其實大家都不認為說執行率很高所以顯然不是只有簽署的人數的問題而且就是說即便簽署了到最後的執行率為什麼沒有辦法執行"},{"start":10315.094,"end":10337.706,"text":"所以大家都想要尊嚴的善終 要拒絕無效的醫療可是當走到那一步 譬如說我的母親她在做DNR的時候 我們都知道可是到那一刻要我們決定 我理性上都知道該怎麼做我們全家人都知道該怎麼做可是到那一刻來的時候 我們做不下去 做不下去啊"},{"start":10340.583,"end":10354.756,"text":"然後就這樣又拖一拖到什麼時候才大家說放棄了吧因為覺得他這樣子下去拖下去太痛苦了所以我們才說那我們放棄吧所以我是要告訴你說從這個"},{"start":10358.819,"end":10382.07,"text":"衛生政策來檢驗這個病主法當然是還有在討論的這個空間但是並不是只有簽署率多高還包括執行上的障礙是什麼而這個東西是透過這一個法律就可以解決的嗎我想答案是否定的他不是只有一個病主法就足夠的所以"},{"start":10385.702,"end":10408.531,"text":"這種善終的概念喔老實說簽署率不高的原因還有一個啦大家對於病毒法的想像跟他所想像的他以為這是一個善終的安樂死的概念的其實是不是的根本不是的當你真正去了解的時候發現不是的時候"},{"start":10409.882,"end":10415.688,"text":"那跟DNR差沒有很大的時候我認為DNR的簽署率很高啦到那一刻DNR的簽署率都很高"},{"start":10422.343,"end":10437.015,"text":"但DNR離這個病毒法的簽署那個內容並不是差異太大了 老實說那我們講說這個無效醫療要善終但是監察院在2011年他其實有讓無效醫療和臨終關懷扶上檯面"},{"start":10450.385,"end":10476.297,"text":"那他指出臨床上界定治療無效或者是何時讓安寧緩和和醫療接手都沒有辦法明確定義那具體而言國家透過法律保障和約束專業但醫療行為屬專業自主其內涵仰賴專業自律和主管機關的含釋所以在這種狀況裡面我們都看到專業的醫生的意見跟這個"},{"start":10479.398,"end":10507.846,"text":"社會大眾的期待的所謂的比較好的善終的這個手段其實落差還是很大所以這種情境善終的臨床的情境雖然不是專科所能擅自去做詮釋的但是如果謹守專業自主讓政策去導引而不是不當的介入原本在醫病之間互相理解和治療狀態下的照護喔這個一直都是修法的困境"},{"start":10509.161,"end":10534.283,"text":"那這個我要講這個是因為有一個月旦醫學法報告有一篇文章叫做圖法不足以自行圖法不足以自行這個病人自主權利法的反思善終政策不曉得師長或是部長有沒有看過這個郭文華教授的這一篇文章我們華麗專家有"},{"start":10538.027,"end":10554.54,"text":"只有看到那個summary沒有仔細看裡面的內文好他說他指出病毒法的困局其原因固然有民眾的誤解和醫界的被動但是不可諱言的有來自病毒法的理想性"},{"start":10555.54,"end":10578.049,"text":"生命自主需要保障照護需要父權但是一般人並不容易理解這樣的一個抽象的概念更不要說在徹底了解後做的治療的選擇但我要講說其實他講的我部分上也認同但部分上不一定認同我覺得剛好相反很多人是相對的了解他對生命的價值和意義而想要選擇一種"},{"start":10579.409,"end":10595.598,"text":"善終的方式但是偏偏他所期待的是在病毒法這部法律裡面不能給的給不了的那從衛生的角度以外呢我們這個看到郭文華教授他要指出幾個盲點第一 宣導跟現實的落差"},{"start":10600.54,"end":10627.722,"text":"如果在這個被認為創造病患可以無痛苦讓醫師減少臨床壓力然後大家說這樣去創造健保資源不浪費因為無效醫療就是浪費嘛大家會覺得這樣可是呢這樣的狀況沒有釐清政策效果的優先順序或者是為什麼要病人以自主之名去啟動要一般人立即理解善終主動尋求理解AD跟簽署"},{"start":10628.462,"end":10650.621,"text":"似乎誠意過高第二個諮商的門檻他們覺得ACP的法律程序諮商的行為受到法律的規範AD就是法律文件在沒有相關素養教育的配套下有具有法律性質的醫療諮商扛起公民教育的責任可行性他們也覺得有疑慮"},{"start":10651.562,"end":10658.329,"text":"本來諮商是專業的本來諮商是沒有法律的責任的可是現在是必須透過諮商這個過程來建立法律的責任然後才能去簽AD那麼這個諮商的過程大家去都可能是速成法速成法可是大家對這個概念是要先有"},{"start":10671.283,"end":10685.852,"text":"這個公民教育的你對於這個生死的素養才能具備說你要去諮商然後你要去簽署這個文件可是如果沒有公民的素養沒有這個教育生死的教育然後直接就叫說我上一個諮商一下然後就簽了"},{"start":10687.653,"end":10713.121,"text":"這個可能在大家可行性上有疑慮然後呢在楊秀儀在期刊台灣公共衛生雜誌2020年6月的文章講到住院的病患家屬對病人自主權利法的認知態度及日歷醫療決定的行為意向他指出90%以上受訪者願意進行ACP的諮商卻"},{"start":10715.081,"end":10729.466,"text":"這個很重要 我現在要告訴你們這個東西我要講楊秀宇的這篇文章很重要他做了研究他在醫院然後去做調查這個都是住院的病患的家屬了"},{"start":10731.966,"end":10751.702,"text":"90%以上去進行他們都願意這個預歷醫療照護諮商當他們都願意了以後進一階 進階到要簽AD了就是要預歷醫療決定了他從90%以上的接受度瞬間減半掉為51.25%"},{"start":10756.767,"end":10767.191,"text":"並不是沒有接受諮商 他去接受諮商了然後到要簽的時候 剩下51.25%然後楊秀宇認為說 這個是很有意義的發現 為什麼為什麼 這個是你們主導的政策 為什麼 你可以告訴我嗎博帝你知道嗎 市長你知道嗎"},{"start":10779.946,"end":10796.193,"text":"其實這一段的落差其實就變成是說我覺得是在簽署自己的名字那個必須是一個commitment這件事情其實產生了因為我們其實有做過其他相關的研究其實也都是在具名要簽下去這件事情的時候"},{"start":10796.713,"end":10822.996,"text":"在整個過程當中產生了一個質疑所以在願意資商完之後真的要簽下去其實還有周圍家屬一些因素影響其實實際上面的簽署率在一些相關的研究我忘記是不是楊老師的研究其實都有一些學者提出來所以我要講說簽署率不要成為你們的KPI不要把病毒法的KPI定為簽署率"},{"start":10824.412,"end":10837.108,"text":"楊秀瑜說他這個跟國際許多的研究觀察都是相符合的就是許多人並不排斥思考死亡和臨終善終的醫療照護的問題"},{"start":10839.551,"end":10854.403,"text":"但是真正要簽署的時候可能會考慮很多有時候是不願意和家人討論或行諸於文字或者是像是類似一種法律契約何以如此何以如此師長何以如此我們看到這個現象了但為什麼呢為什麼呢因為我覺得可是我們要討論修法要讓這個法律更更更進階來討論它的問題發生在哪裡但何以如此啊"},{"start":10869.173,"end":10884.169,"text":"所以陳慧覺得是說今天在討論所謂的病毒這件事情我們一直覺得是說需要做的事情在民眾死亡勢能這個部分其實我們需要去提市長你講了你都沒有看其實非常重要的一個原因就是"},{"start":10887.785,"end":10906.743,"text":"因為此時此地和當時當地不同選擇生命末期的醫療是非常艱難的選擇不管事前有再多的準備預備但是到了醫療現場在生死關頭還是有很多的猶豫反覆捨不得"},{"start":10908.144,"end":10919.234,"text":"大家都在那裡天人交戰包括我自己就曾經經歷過我都知道我也準備了我也認為什麼是最好的可是當時到此時不一樣"},{"start":10925.359,"end":10940.756,"text":"所以這篇調查是受訪者都是家人目前都是在家戶病房的家屬對醫療現場都有第一手的經驗更能了解做決定的艱難"},{"start":10942.398,"end":10953.391,"text":"而且他們對ACP都持開放的態度卻只有一半願意簽署AD這個你們一定要記住第三也就是最關鍵的政策成效的評估大家覺得說"},{"start":10957.935,"end":10983.333,"text":"就是說這個評估是不是要有研擬運作的模式設立了示範的中心追蹤AD的簽署來作為政策的里程碑但這個做法看起來沒問題但實務上的障礙是民眾真的不容易理解病毒法和安寧條例為何並存宣導團隊也重疊然後相對於ACP跟AD的簽署率的低我剛剛講過DNR大家"},{"start":10986.295,"end":10994.364,"text":"都是簽署率非常非常的高的你只要給他簽 欸 病危了然後拒絕心胃復甦或維生醫療大家都簽啦 十個有高的都有簽啦"},{"start":10998.027,"end":11017.475,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面其實這些議題我們都希望說在你的政策有效性的評估並不要用那種方法那現在講說持續的問題是要推動生死素養的教育和政策"},{"start":11018.115,"end":11028.341,"text":"要回到臨終照護現場以更周全的方式去評估成果部長你認為有哪些方法還可以再改善這種評估的效果不要一味的以AD的簽署數為評估的指標嘛其實那個委員主持的重點"},{"start":11039.62,"end":11060.373,"text":"其實你在簽AD到最後在面臨實際上那個時候的時候是非常困難的當然你前面早一點我再講還有什麼指標你就回答我就好了指標委員的意思是臨床現狀嗎就是說到底這種這種病人自主無效醫療然後這什麼樣的狀況認為是你們醫療政策推動的比較好的指標的觀察什麼東西好那個請問一下"},{"start":11068.989,"end":11093.676,"text":"這邊的話就臨床部分的話我們會希望是說其實是要一起看什麼意思就是說在推動所謂的剛剛委員特別有垂詢是說如果只單就一個AD的簽署率其實是應該把DNR跟安寧的這邊其實是一起看這第一件事第二件事情就是一些量性指標的部分的話我們可以在六個月內如果有使用就是"},{"start":11094.716,"end":11120.055,"text":"因為當你的終點越清楚的時候其實一些醫療介入的措施我們是希望他能夠有這樣的概念不管我的進入的路徑是從病毒法或者是從安寧緩和條例六個月內沒有有使用像這樣子安寧照護的服務的比例能夠增加這會是我們希望未來你們的安寧病床都是你們沒有滿床嗎照你們剛才的想法沒有滿床但是其實我曾經被拜託是排不到床的"},{"start":11121.125,"end":11148.417,"text":"他其實是有我曾經被拜託就說想要進去安寧病房都派不進去我要講的是說其實目前我們希望推動的在特別是在高齡少子社會裡面其實怎麼樣回到社區所以安寧共照然後居家安寧跟社區安寧我想的是這樣子啦市長你想的我直接跟你講我想什麼啦因為我覺得部長你剛才唱很多高調衛部部也唱很多高調什麼"},{"start":11150.038,"end":11154.7,"text":"給他照顧得很好有尊嚴不會痛苦就沒有人想要安樂死這個是唱很多高調啊你知道當在那一剎那的時候要多少經濟壓力當你們癌症治療的藥物設限這麼多標靶用藥設限那麼多然後要自費的話要花那麼多錢"},{"start":11170.086,"end":11190.025,"text":"你說要尊嚴 要照護好 你們連安寧病床可能都不夠然後呢 醫護 這個護理人員流失 關床 排不進去你們的照護品質不會好 那家人 古早人說孤單病不好走嘛那病人被人痛苦折磨 那要有好的藥門檻那麼高 要自己自費買不起"},{"start":11194.485,"end":11206.348,"text":"所以難怪這個4月24台大公衛在講的是善終自主 台灣民眾對醫師協助死亡的看法所以有這種狀況是有3992位然後進行這個死亡調查關於醫生協助死亡的調查研究這樣子"},{"start":11223.123,"end":11250.131,"text":"然後醫助死亡跟安樂死是不一樣的我們先講在這裡安樂死是醫生處理的可是醫助死亡是醫生協助而已讓受苦的病人加速離世如果我們的長照制度不好我們的照護品質不好如果病人的經濟能力不好如果我們健保的癌症藥物的給付不好你叫我們說沒有人會想要安樂死我告訴你現在台灣"},{"start":11251.431,"end":11259.136,"text":"很多生病的人包括我自己我都想要自己去自殺了如果有安樂死的話我會選擇安樂死為什麼 因為我剛剛講你講說好的什麼那個高調的那個情境在台灣目前不會存在而且在執行上理想上也不太會存在不太可能 因為資源有限因為人力耗盡在那裡因為大家都知道"},{"start":11279.517,"end":11301.44,"text":"無效的醫療再拖下去也是無效所以你說會有那種不想安樂死的我想大概對啦也有但是很多更多是想要安樂死的那在這種狀況裡面台大公衛的這份研究做了3992個將近4000個他依據死亡的支持度他設定了三種"},{"start":11302.481,"end":11323.368,"text":"三種 就癌症末期而且預期壽命有限 再活沒多久而且病人太痛苦了 像癌症末期86.2%的支持度都要求可以有醫助死亡那第二種 即便不是末期 但根本就沒有藥可醫而且身上有無法忍受的痛苦 如劍動人這種支持度79.6%"},{"start":11326.889,"end":11355.937,"text":"第三種病人嚴重喪失認知能力疾病無法治癒也沒有改善的方式如極重度的失智支持率有72%72.6%還有不分任何情境純粹就是你支不支持醫生可以協助民眾死亡的比例有67.6%所以這個台大公衛的學者呼籲了什麼他們呼籲什麼部長你知道嗎"},{"start":11359.025,"end":11386.111,"text":"我可以補充 他其實呼籲的其實是對死亡這件事情應該有更多的社會的對話對 保證妳要了解 妳自己知道但是妳也要了解就是說 妳要建議社會跟政府要跟所有的社會的對話都要開始溝通要開始對話 甚至連這個醫治死亡都要開始討論啦"},{"start":11388.131,"end":11397.635,"text":"全台灣人 過半以上都支持大家就要開始討論 要你社會討論對不對 社會討論重不重要 保定非常重要那你們的次長為什麼為什麼你們的次長面對這樣的研究一出來你的處長怎麼說 你的處長怎麼說 李建德怎麼說"},{"start":11411.087,"end":11418.889,"text":"安樂死 斷食善終是不對的他連斷食善終都不對了這不是我們的病主法嗎市長怎麼這麼說他說這兩者都不會成為衛福部的政策選項你是誰啊 你說了算喔社會對話 這是社會對話喔"},{"start":11434.81,"end":11443.37,"text":"不管是斷食善中或安樂食他的intention我問你啦你的病足法裡面有沒有包含斷食善中"},{"start":11444.457,"end":11468.966,"text":"那個不叫斷食善中那個是不要去使用不必要的人工營養水分我想委員今天的一席話真的是非常專業我真的是覺得很敬佩但是我必須要講清楚斷食善中你不給他再營養供給了不給他鼻胃管了不給他這個營養供給了你知道插一個鼻胃管病人是多痛苦對啊"},{"start":11470.046,"end":11477.658,"text":"那你有很多的方式你會好好的照顧他他就會吃很多東西他雖然有時候譬如說有那種"},{"start":11479.767,"end":11502.793,"text":"需要鼻胃管的還有進食能力的如果那種連吞嚥功能都喪失的吞嚥功能比如我舉個例子我現在不是跟你討論這個我是要告訴你你不要轉移焦點我現在告訴你說你的次長憑什麼他一個人說安樂時、斷食三中都不會成為衛福部的政策選項"},{"start":11504.349,"end":11523.899,"text":"你們說可以透過支持性或緩解性的醫療照顧減輕病人痛苦 但不贊同安樂死你講了支持性或緩解性的醫療照護真的是大家都可以得到這麼好的照顧嗎"},{"start":11526.679,"end":11530.361,"text":"90%你的癌症用藥設限那麼多標靶用藥自費這麼貴然後家人家人也耗這麼多人家病人不願意了所以我沒有叫你要喔我現在告訴你是醫師協助死亡這現在民意支持度這麼高的狀況"},{"start":11545.626,"end":11560.615,"text":"你應該要開啟社會對話而甚至你要去研究相關的法律的制度對醫療的衝擊對醫師的衝擊然後相應的問題可能會是什麼你也要去回應學者的這個現象到底問題產生在哪裡你應該要去開啟社會溝通和對話對不對哪有可能你們一個次長就來說不可能 那我無愛我都無愛這樣都不用做了嗎"},{"start":11574.764,"end":11598.696,"text":"我們幾十年來都一直在對話那我問你醫師協助死亡的議題你做過正式的政策評估或是跨部門討論嗎或者是你委託研究過嗎他的倫理法律和醫療實務的可行性會遇到什麼困難可行不可行你們做過嗎"},{"start":11600.578,"end":11620.024,"text":"有沒有說過醫師協助自殺其實也是安樂死的一種我現在就是在講醫師協助死亡的安樂死方式對 這個部分就是屬於在安樂死的一個範疇對 我在問你說社會溝通對話那這個部分必須要更多的社會對話來溝通那當我們目前的政策台大現在這份研究"},{"start":11629.227,"end":11640.493,"text":"我們在講P.A.D合法就是醫治死亡的這個P.A.D的政策P.A.D的意思P.A.DDying Assistant Physician"},{"start":11650.29,"end":11674.927,"text":"Physician Assisted Dying就跟你講PAD啦我是要告訴這不重要啦我現在就是講喔當台大的公衛拿出這樣的數據的時候你們有沒有做過任何政策的研議倫理、法律的、社會心理的你們都沒有做一個處長一出來就跟我們說那樣不可能,我們不愛,我們不接受"},{"start":11679.534,"end":11684.557,"text":"那你現在是怎樣 像林淑芬講的我自己吃到75歲 我自己下去煮飯你是要這樣子"},{"start":11689.721,"end":11714.499,"text":"你知道我走出門 你知道多少人給我陳情立委啊 你就快讓他安樂死 合法化你就趕快立這個法律我告訴他什麼 你知道嗎我不知道怎麼定這個法律啦整個社會溝通對話倫理的法律的社會心理的經濟的等等的生物上的我通通都沒有足夠的專業然後社會沒有對話"},{"start":11718.022,"end":11731.55,"text":"衛福部也從來不討論不委外研究沒有任何的政策研究我是要怎麼去產出一個法律啊你來這裡你到底你是跟你們處長一樣的立場是不是啦我就是在這裡問你你跟你們處長一樣就直接說我們反對安樂死絕對不要安樂死你在這裡是要宣示這個政策嗎我們政策是一種開放的我現在講這個叫社會對話嗎社會對話是這樣的嗎"},{"start":11747.291,"end":11774.371,"text":"我們可以繼續來我今天不是在講病毒法為什麼病毒法的簽署率這麼低其中一個重要的原因就是民眾所想像的病毒法所想像的安樂死的善終的概念跟這個法律落差太大了而民眾想要的很多民眾想要的當然也有很多民眾反對很多民眾想要的是真的是讓我好好的走吧善終安樂死"},{"start":11775.111,"end":11799.333,"text":"你最好是了解一下什麼叫一一社會對話溝通然後你最好去做一下研究好歹也做一下研究吧連這個都拒絕在這裡你都不做的話我只能說這個不但做國內的研究我們也做國際的研究做很多啊 paper 在哪裡你的委外研究經費編在哪裡你的委外研究的計畫成果計畫成果在哪裡"},{"start":11802.304,"end":11823.818,"text":"那另外就是就是有國內有很多學者都有做學者做的跟你政府做的有一樣嗎在這裡信口開河青菜公共那你為什麼一直你一直用台大的公衛學者做為一個政府用好朋友楊秀儀教授的文章來談論那不是政府喔那是拿政府的錢的嗎"},{"start":11825.081,"end":11838.67,"text":"不管怎麼樣這也是當然的我現在講我這裡我監督的是叫做政府我們人民要的是有政府能溝通我這裡怎麼去問責於一個學者你怎麼政府把責任就推給所有學者做了這是叫做政府嗎剛梁秀儀主導這個政策"},{"start":11849.597,"end":11859.664,"text":"我們當然在主導政策啊 但是我們要收集各方面的資訊不是喔 你要開支 你是政府 你要去做研究不是只說學者研究一分 這樣就好了我現在要聽學者 我要聽你政府你政府 你怎麼面對這個課題 怎麼面對這個議題怎麼面對人民有這個需求"},{"start":11874.588,"end":11888.062,"text":"尤其是在你們醫療制度都在這麼緊張瀕臨崩潰的邊緣啦更不要講問題多啦在講說你好好的照顧這個理想性不存在啦接下來請黃修文委員來做詢問"},{"start":11904.083,"end":11904.504,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長"},{"start":11918.792,"end":11938.166,"text":"委員好 部長好 今天大家關心的就是說我們從2019年這個病人自主權利法通過之後那這個育立醫療照護諮商的這一個好像這個幾年下來成效好像也不是那麼好"},{"start":11938.926,"end":11954.776,"text":"我們看到就是說那個實施到現在有簽署的人差不多10萬多人那這個簽署率差不多0.45%那又看到就是說到最後有真的照這樣子這個病人預歷醫療照護諮商"},{"start":11957.778,"end":11971.991,"text":"這樣的醫療到最後是不是有照這樣做的好像這個比例好像也很低那我想請教就是說到底有簽署然後到最後有照這樣去執行的這個比例到底有多少"},{"start":11973.251,"end":11995.666,"text":"報告委員,根據這個應該是衛福部委託的研究我們大概就是有簽署AD到後來的吻合率是七成那這七成裡面有分類,譬如說心外按摩室、插管這個大概百分之百吻合那在比較困難的是在於"},{"start":11996.647,"end":12013.72,"text":"抗生素那個時要不要使用要不要用人工營養比如說插鼻胃管 胃躁揉或者是用點滴去打那個營養分這個部分到那個時候爭議爭議會比較大所以第一在前面的AD即使簽了以後你到臨床的現場"},{"start":12016.002,"end":12041.577,"text":"還是要不斷的溝通說明做最好政策這樣子部長我想請教就是說你們這樣子目前簽署10萬3千多人這個都是原本是用自費自己自費的嘛對不對那如果說自己自費然後簽署是只有10萬多人的話那未來你們也有特別提到就是說這個諮商65歲重大疾病的部分未來是要由健保這邊來給付嗎對不對"},{"start":12045.679,"end":12072.99,"text":"對嗎5月1號就今天開始嗎今天開始那原本自己自費的自費表示他就是有未來有這個意願有這個意願那你看喔這樣你們簽署的這個執行率就已經那麼低那如果未來是健保的話那你們要怎麼去擴及是直接在醫療院所或者是你們到其他的可能老人比較多的場所去直接這個說明"},{"start":12073.55,"end":12097.881,"text":"然後鼓吹我不知道說你們未來要怎麼做我們當然可以都要思考怎麼樣把廣度深度都能夠加強我想這個部分也是大家的期望但是就是說我剛剛有講如果剛剛第一階段是70%可是後來發現幾年以後再做一次"},{"start":12098.686,"end":12104.039,"text":"吻合力比較低為什麼我們專家的研究就是因為諮商的品質降低"},{"start":12105.349,"end":12123.815,"text":"時尚品質為什麼會降低就是可能他應該也是找醫師所以就是說是不是說時間上或者是怎麼樣這個就是在檢討啦這是一個檢討的可能那你現在5月1號開始上路就65歲重大傷病的我們還是會去要求品質嘛要求品質你現在給他幾戶當然是要求品質啊如果沒做好品質這個大概就不用說了"},{"start":12131.237,"end":12145.558,"text":"那你們已經今天開始了嘛今天開始那你應該要怎麼去要求這個要怎麼要求你們應該自己有一套的指標要有一定的時間內容跟表單嘛應該都有一個監測的指標嘛"},{"start":12147.625,"end":12167.724,"text":"我先講一下因為其實病毒法實行到這邊五年多其實我們相關的醫護人員完成訓練的人數是夠的然後所以在過去像比如說剛剛那個趙葦這邊有在講等候的人數是因為過去醫院在開設門診的這一段他其實是有多少病人那時候是預約門診的部分"},{"start":12169.005,"end":12187.9,"text":"然後所以在開設加開兩年的部分的話因為人數夠多所以在這個可以解決就是目前現況的部分的話所以我們才會特別講是說健保署這邊如果開始開了這個的話我們大概會監測希望是說至少在今年能夠我們最近兩年是"},{"start":12188.36,"end":12203.44,"text":"一年大概2萬人次的一個增加的一個幅度那我們希望今年開始能夠突破到4萬這短期間內就是說開出門診是一件事怎麼樣就是說透過這樣子的一個因為我們本來在基層診所這邊"},{"start":12204.221,"end":12233.403,"text":"有去居家做的這一塊然後我們覺得是說這塊也是可以來做協作希望能夠擴大量的而不是只靠門診的部分然後也因為這樣子其實我們下半年會有一些專家輔導團隊先做示範看看怎麼去輔導已經上完課有能力做的更敢做的這件事情這是我們下半年希望能夠突破這樣的量才會增加然後期待是說才能夠真的讓更多人了解病毒以上"},{"start":12234.063,"end":12244.57,"text":"那我想請教就是說他有簽了那如果簽了到最後到最後他可能沒有議事那如果家人反對呢"},{"start":12245.529,"end":12268.056,"text":"如果醫師跟家人討論就是說他可能這個情況不是那麼樂觀那也許這個病人他原本就已經有簽那個醫主那簽完之後然後家屬反對那家屬反對到底這個醫生要按照他原本的這個醫主或者是他要聽家人的"},{"start":12269.785,"end":12294.225,"text":"這一段其實最重要這個法律的精神會希望是說一併和諧然後在執行的過程當中其實怎麼樣呈現出這個病人的爭議然後我們其實大概在兩年前其實就開始我們在簽這個所謂的AD這個的時候我們就希望同步一起能夠來就是說為什麼家屬一定要進來"},{"start":12295.566,"end":12314.137,"text":"因為這樣子的話才會有見證人其實是同步的證實說這個真的是病人的正義然後那這樣子的前提下面的時候進行的所謂的溝通對話醫護人員也比較敢是說跟另外的家屬說這個是病人真正的意願然後執行"},{"start":12314.617,"end":12341.472,"text":"因為在這個整個過程當中從一路走來的跟善終相關的從棄捐到安寧到病毒我們其實都發現我們華人社會其實還是一個家庭一個核心所以家人的共識家人的同意其實這件事情是重要的早點開啟對話後面也就是我們剛剛部長講的為什麼越早開啟對話的時候那大家的共識度也願意"},{"start":12343.133,"end":12367.234,"text":"讓這個病人最後的醫院能夠執行的這件事情是我覺得是今天也謝謝委員透過這樣的執行我們也希望民眾能夠知道是病人的爭議才是最重要的可是市長應該在醫療的第一線醫師跟家屬可能會做一個討論那醫師也會以他的專業覺得說我這個是不是還有機會那如果說這個"},{"start":12369.737,"end":12383.633,"text":"家屬跟這個醫師可能也許或者是病人本身也許如果會會有一些矛盾的話也許病人本身他覺得說我可能就不插管或者說我可能"},{"start":12384.273,"end":12407.421,"text":"不做積極的那個治療那醫師覺得說還有機會那這樣子的話怎麼辦我們對於末期病人要兩位專科醫師共同確認所以在這個地方上面的醫療程序上面的一個完備其實會是讓我們的在跟病人家屬解釋這一段的時候我覺得會是一個比較清楚而不是一個醫師就說這個有救"},{"start":12408.021,"end":12432.203,"text":"因為要有科學的證據一起來做佐證的時候我覺得啦在決定的時候因為怎麼準備都不夠可是越多的客觀的一些資料幫忙輔助的時候其實在解釋這一段困難難以做決定的一個過程裡面我覺得是相對容易比較容易產生一個就是公司還是會回到了尊重病人自主的一個狀況以上"},{"start":12433.885,"end":12454.731,"text":"那我可以請教就是說這個從2019到現在就是有十萬三千多人有簽署那這十萬三千多人剛剛部長有特別提到就是差不多70%就是有按照原本的這個遺囑下去執行那有沒有碰到什麼樣的困難你們有沒有做一個統計"},{"start":12456.703,"end":12478.847,"text":"這部分的話我們那時候委託的研究只有就是說比較籠統的講到就是說需要再跟家屬再做進一步的溝通這個地方上面的一個困境因為我們當初在簽的時候跟執行AD的時候如果這個情境跟安寧很像就是末期的時候"},{"start":12479.307,"end":12505.769,"text":"那個家屬的理解度相對的高然後可是就是說在這一段過程裡面其實第一段執行在剛開始法律通過的時候其實是醫護人員醫療人員要怎麼執行這一段會有困擾所以我們大概透過輔導團隊然後跟線上的課程定期的一個線上臨床工作會議的一個聯繫會議去解決一開始的困境是有法律不知道怎麼做"},{"start":12506.59,"end":12535.814,"text":"ACP很清楚執行AD不知道怎麼做透過大概兩年到三年的一個像這樣子的一個專業團隊的一起協助推動的時候現在的困擾其實會是說怎麼樣擴大相對的效應因為發現很多人還是不清楚那我想請教就是說你們原本執行了這個百分之七十幾的人或者是剩下百分之三十左右沒有按照原本的這一個簽署下去執行"},{"start":12536.555,"end":12539.023,"text":"那有沒有就是醫療糾紛的這種狀況出現"},{"start":12543.639,"end":12568.246,"text":"這個我不確定只是我們研究報告請研究團隊在跟我們做討論的時候並沒有人提到這一段我只能夠這樣講新的抑鬱法在上路之後一年多我們一年多裡面的案件並沒有看到末期病人的這一段所以就是說最主要是還要再跟家屬溝通應該就是原本他簽的時候雖然有一個家屬陪同"},{"start":12569.446,"end":12584.582,"text":"就是一個家屬至少要一個家屬陪同那可能在到最後的時候也許其他的家屬認為就是說那我還是要繼續救所以可能就會有這樣子一個矛盾產生那像這樣子的話要聽誰的"},{"start":12586.264,"end":12615.263,"text":"基本上面老實講在那段過程當中其實幾乎都是會在用溝通會的家庭會議這邊來做一個凝聚共識然後那結論的部分因為我自己沒有在做那個食物的臨床的經驗只是是說在跟研究過研究團隊討論的過程當中其實很多因為後來幾乎都是走末期的這一段然後透過多次的一個會議之後其實逐漸產生的共識"},{"start":12616.604,"end":12642.863,"text":"比较多能够尊重病人只是这是要花时间来做跟家属这边的沟通其实我一直认为就是说病人的状况如果他真的是没办法没办法再回复或者是说已经就已经没办法了我觉得医师如果很明确的讲通常家属都可以可以接受就是说可能就是让他三中如果他还有自己签署的话那如果"},{"start":12643.783,"end":12667.973,"text":"我覺得這個可能跟醫師也有很大的一個關係那另外就是說要把這個丟給第一線的醫護人員我覺得好像也就譬如說醫師要跟家屬溝通我覺得這個也是要花蠻花時間的所以我覺得這個法也許我覺得還需要再更多的一個社會的溝通"},{"start":12670.296,"end":12686.518,"text":"包委員 前面這個法做得更好當然是絕對有幫助於後面照顧的品質但是一旦他要兩個醫師決定默契以後其實有很多溝通那剛剛講的在新惠富叔叔跟那個"},{"start":12688.78,"end":12715.3,"text":"呃 插管這個部分幾乎他原來講不要大概那個時候也不會做啦齁但是在臨床上真的有很多決策齁那到底他這個狀況打抗生素是有沒有用打人工營養水分是養到細胞比較多還是養到正常的細胞你一直跟他講你一直跟他打打到都是細胞一直大起來他的肉一碟肉就沒有成果這種很嚴重的問題啊這就是communicationis the key"},{"start":12716.661,"end":12735.727,"text":"就是一直在溝通每天我們都在做倫理決策那這個請放心我們的安寧團隊在這個部分台灣的安寧團安寧照顧品質是世界第三亞洲第一所以要善用我們這樣幾十年來建立的這樣一個有品質的團隊給病人可以好好的照顧所以我們反而要先導"},{"start":12737.389,"end":12758.525,"text":"早一點來照會 病人如果到達比較重病的時候應該早一點不管是思考ACP或思考要接受安寧環和醫療照顧這個教育是非常重要的因為不但可以早一點追求善終的路生死良相安應該也讓資源得到最好的一個合理的分配"},{"start":12759.085,"end":12781.036,"text":"好 我是覺得說應該這條路真的確實你們看從那個2019到現在有簽署的才10萬多人這個數字真的是非常少對 當然土法不足以自省所以我們有很多要大家繼續努力但是我們後面的照顧團隊是很堅強的可以解決很多的問題好 謝謝好 謝謝郭委員 謝謝部長"},{"start":12790.93,"end":12792.613,"text":"來請王委員來謝謝主席麻煩邱部長邱部長"},{"start":12808.067,"end":12834.026,"text":"委員好柏定今天真的是舌戰所謂的不是舌戰啦齁我意思是說讓大家討論啦這個真的是重要的議題因為進入到這個超高齡社會謝謝主席來這個議題謝謝是是啊啊我也知道你是在臨床上其實有很豐富的經驗也算是救命的專家所以今天這個機會好讓柏定來討論今天就是針對病毒法"},{"start":12837.867,"end":12853.394,"text":"未來在落實上面這個人數還有品質可以兼顧不要說他就要增加這個比例然後就在這個品質上是無法兼顧這個就是今天我們要討論的地方其實我們也知道"},{"start":12855.795,"end":12877.405,"text":"在這個討論的前提就是有這幾個重點包括我們是要以人為本以人為本前幾天賴總統也在健康台灣全國論壇上面我強調以人為本的醫療基本上還需要重視的就是推動安寧照護跟尊嚴善中的支持跟肯定這就是我們今天討論的主題"},{"start":12879.346,"end":12897.073,"text":"可是我們也看到數據就是病俗法已經實施了5年還是有不到1%的民眾來簽署這方面的處理需求可能曾經大家都已經分析得很清楚包括可見性不足諮商費一開始的時候是自費"},{"start":12898.153,"end":12914.594,"text":"後來才有健保的部分的處理還有就是民眾他剛才黃鄉委員有提醒民眾在這個接受度的部分到底會不會有根據他對知識對這個生命的理解能不能接受還有"},{"start":12915.936,"end":12933.636,"text":"我們目前的現場執行的確有他的一些在處理上他要求比較嚴謹的地方那我們也知道如果依照今天早上部長的報告是以比較採像暫時不修法來做討論的話那就是要改善我們的政策"},{"start":12934.036,"end":12952.668,"text":"那改善的政策呢就會包括有沒有機會來提高這個至上的可敬性擴大大家意計畫擴大健保給付跟強化政策宣傳那剛剛那個林書偉也有提到這部分怎麼來加強那真的要修改法律的話那應該要注意哪一些的事情"},{"start":12953.976,"end":12974.531,"text":"那的確我們知道從今天開始就會擴大這個獄力一族的這些給付對象希望能夠在未來的一年裡面能夠增加兩萬人為目標來讓有更多的民眾來做這方面的處理那這方面的處理當然就會需要有比較相關的配套剛剛提到的政策"},{"start":12975.631,"end":12995.576,"text":"我現在先請教一個問題剛剛部長有討論到其實如果能夠善用我們目前的安寧照護條例的一些條件的話事實上是也可以讓這個品質得到很好的照顧模式有民眾參加過這個屬於我們的這個病毒法的"},{"start":12996.596,"end":13008.065,"text":"同意簽署以後同時又有參加那你知道我條例這些內容的不知道有沒有百分比上的數據可以呈現市長或是有沒有相關的數據"},{"start":13011.727,"end":13037.579,"text":"這邊我沒有手邊沒數據我要再確認一下我覺得如果能夠知道有這個數據的話如果一個人一個民眾他願意同時同意這兩點的話我相信未來照顧在品質上或者是在跟家屬的溝通上是有他一定的這種不會造成大家在做臨床決策上的困擾我們也希望能夠看到這個數據"},{"start":13038.993,"end":13053.096,"text":"好 我們再整理一下OK 好 那在馬雲部裡面這邊來處理所以針對未來要再利用這個部分提高的話希望能夠增加2.5萬人部長覺得這個機會大嗎這個樂觀還是不樂觀嗯"},{"start":13062.076,"end":13088.894,"text":"市長我們相對樂觀的原因是因為過去的這五年我們發現是說簽署這個AD就是去做ACP智商AD的人其實過去都有一些生命情境是有相關經驗的才有這樣子的意願所以是說這次那個健保署針對的這個其實像有重大傷病或者是在我們那個加一整合計畫或者是全市全社區照顧計畫"},{"start":13089.994,"end":13106.062,"text":"這邊大概都跟基層醫師這邊有相對密切關係長期信任信賴關係的所以第一個65歲以上是過去的他過去Potential Target裡面的熱於就是比較多去簽意願的人"},{"start":13106.502,"end":13134.498,"text":"然後那個基層這邊是我們更希望能夠擴大的這一塊因為訓練的人數多了然後只是是說踏出這一步能夠盡可能的來做他協助他的病人來簽署AD的這件事情的話是我們今年下半年也希望跟健保署一起合作希望能夠擴大的然後我們這邊也會有輔導團隊大概先做示範看看那個怎麼輔導讓大家基層這邊更勇於跨出第一步這是我們"},{"start":13134.918,"end":13163.02,"text":"所以我們相對而言是對增加兩萬再提高這件事情我們是樂觀的 以上好很期待這個樂觀可以有機會變成一個事實那如果我們希望讓這個樂觀更有機會的話那有沒有可能在以不修母法的前提之下針對我目前的這幾個相關的管理辦法來做處理包括說因為我們現在知道依照現在的管理辦法就是要求相對嚴謹嘛你就要"},{"start":13163.88,"end":13190.624,"text":"有200床以上等等的一些限定條件我們也針對護理機構或者是長照機構目前的話是無法如果現在以不修法為前提之下要做這個調整的話有沒有可能在辦法裡面去跟以護理或者是長照機構是跟醫院本身是有附設的條件的情形之下他們可以做同等的服務模式"},{"start":13191.688,"end":13214.994,"text":"我要講的是說過去這邊的這個管理辦法裡面在處理的一個是特殊專長的診所或醫院他的人員組成的資格其實並沒有說我講的是像護理社心這些一定要專屬在那家機構所以大家在社區裡面怎麼做協作的方式其實在過去的5年裡面我們有處理過然後"},{"start":13216.234,"end":13235.4,"text":"為什麼要不同的角度然後為什麼一定要就是醫療機構的原因是因為在解釋這一段的時候有很多對於疾病的預後對於後來的介入措施這個產生的一些衝擊好處壞處這個一定要相當臨床經驗的人所以在現行的狀況下面的時候那"},{"start":13236.02,"end":13261.593,"text":"從不同的角度因為像譬如說社新這些的他們對於病人的同理心得更高度所以我們才覺得是說用協作的方式其實可以達成目前是說可不可以擴大領域因為不需要這些人專屬在哪一家醫院也可以或者是用協作的方式避典我寫個例子好了我寫個例子譬如說以部立基隆醫院為例它自己有一個複測長照機構這複測長照機構依照現況可以做這個服務嗎"},{"start":13265.154,"end":13291.333,"text":"他的醫師團隊可以他可以進到那個輻射機構裡面因為就是說健保署他在擴大這個計畫的時候我們要的ACP簽例的簽出來的AD要醫藥機構蓋章然後像以剛剛那個委員在講的布利基隆醫院外展的服務到他的輻射的護理之家然後評估完以後這件事情其實現況是可以的"},{"start":13291.493,"end":13307.029,"text":"是所以如果說依照剛剛的說明看起來的話依照目前的管理辦法事實上是可以做好外展就能夠增加這個量能而且可以維持品質ok了解好那我們期待這方面在執行上可以更落實"},{"start":13308.19,"end":13314.515,"text":"那我們知道那如果真的是要修法的話那有一些增點包括說這個開放這個諮商機構的條件跟範圍還有就是有關於這個人員的資格跟訓練"},{"start":13323.101,"end":13344.08,"text":"當然也希望這個人員在做服務的時候都要有實務的經驗因為畢竟這是跟生命有直接相關的一種服務模式所以這個經驗上也必須要能夠堅持還有就是法源這個裁員到底是要政府編列預算啊或者是要透過健保的模式還有剛剛一直在討論的就是那個現場決策機制"},{"start":13345.982,"end":13368.944,"text":"怎麼樣才能夠讓他可以在一定的品質之下不要造成這個醫病或者是醫師跟這個他的家人之間的一些處理上的一些干擱所以看起來如果要往修法方向的話似乎要進入主條討論之前如果有一個公聽會應該更能夠引起大家不同的意見或者是需求"},{"start":13369.705,"end":13389.405,"text":"那召委剛好也是相關有認為需要修法那是不是也麻煩召委這邊等一下看能不能也讓大家知道說那我們委員會是不是需要再舉辦一個公聽會來再收集更多的一些想法跟意見當作未來修法的一個參考"},{"start":13390.866,"end":13409.977,"text":"這個是我針對第一部分跟這個部長討論那後面很快的就針對醫療資訊的傳播正確性跟部長也來討論一下我們也知道今天其實有很多委員一直在討論說這個預例一組安寧緩和安樂死如果將來有需要討論的時候"},{"start":13411.158,"end":13433.64,"text":"那這方面其實大家的資訊非常非常的多元非常的很難一下子去搞懂這幾個概念上的問題所以未來有沒有機會請布里這邊針對於這個相關的資訊能夠提供更為透明而且是正確至少民眾在做這方面的認知的時候是有所本的"},{"start":13434.461,"end":13453.483,"text":"那這方面如果能夠處理到的話我相信對於未來在溝通的時候會有更好的一些引導方面那我們也知道其實最後就是有關於剛剛針對這個資訊的透明還有正確性真的非常非常的重要因為我們目前也知道"},{"start":13455.004,"end":13469.871,"text":"比較屬於針對學者或者是臨床很希望針對我們這個健保是否能夠在現有的制度之下能夠持續永續那他們發出一些看法那他偷到一個"},{"start":13471.651,"end":13495.462,"text":"這個頂尖的期刊結果大家也發現說原來這個資訊不是那麼樣的完整或者是不是那麼樣的一個正確的情形下會導致可能國外或者是這個期刊的這個讀者可能對於台灣這個醫療體制是會造成不當的認知那部長這邊也希望能夠有更有效去處理這個部分"},{"start":13495.862,"end":13501.039,"text":"那這邊部長不知道能不能夠再做簡短的處理的方式讓我們知道"},{"start":13501.428,"end":13522.277,"text":"好 前面這一張PowerPoint跟這一張回應一下第一個就是不管是安寧環的醫療的內容或者是說大家關心的醫師誰是自殺等等的相關的議題我覺得應該要更多的對話那我們也有在做這方面的努力那希望那個讓各位對"},{"start":13527.1,"end":13546.589,"text":"對這個名詞的內容能夠更加了解來保護自己那第二個部分這個部分因為我們這位年輕的醫師他引用的引用的數據錯誤我們的Omicron的死亡率是0.16%他用一個58%這樣子那不是很可怕了嗎"},{"start":13554.13,"end":13574.675,"text":"這樣的錯誤也寫出去我們也覺得Lancet在審查當中因為它有reference英文已經寫得很清楚我覺得他們的審查真的也是我也覺得說沒有仔細去看一下因為那個的確是很不合理那其他的數據當然有所錯誤所以然後因為錯誤的"},{"start":13575.956,"end":13585.644,"text":"的一個數據導致於錯誤的解讀導致於錯誤的結論我想中醫大非常嚴肅的開了兩次的協助的理委員會"},{"start":13586.983,"end":13615.297,"text":"正是在前天晚上就發出要求撤稿衛福部也是在昨天的下午也是做了一個論述也呈現我們台灣健保其實的成就以及我們醫療體系醫療防疫體系的努力希望能夠不但要求撤稿也希望讓刊登出來能夠讓期間的讀者知道台灣的努力這樣才對得起我們過去醫療人員"},{"start":13617.082,"end":13623.444,"text":"提及政府的努力好 謝謝部長大家繼續努力好 謝謝下一位請劉建國召委發言"},{"start":13646.842,"end":13661.698,"text":"謝謝主席,特別跟主席回報一下剛剛有講說提案委員,如果要提案要增加時間我要給王委員,也希望你可以給我提案更多時間第二件事情,這個法律基本上"},{"start":13663.32,"end":13679.715,"text":"坦白講是應該行政跟立法院有一定程度的共識因為大家都知道這個必須要來推嘛是一個好的法律包含部長在當委員的時候也積極的參與甚至於很多的記者會相關的這樣的一個場合"},{"start":13680.202,"end":13687.552,"text":"都有表達這個意願嘛對於病毒法這樣的一個推動這樣的一個力道的一個作為"},{"start":13697.285,"end":13709.351,"text":"所以一定會有共識的時候我們才會積極來推動要產生共識當然有很多的一個方式第一個委員會第二個公聽會第三個相關的一些協調會我們到時候都還會邀請公部門還有一個醫界"},{"start":13713.013,"end":13727.712,"text":"還有病團大家一起包含原有的這個提案的嚴委員包含孫教授等等等大家一起來共同來面對來處理但是今天有一個最大最大的共識我想基本上那病除法這個法律"},{"start":13728.653,"end":13754.826,"text":"是要繼續推下去然後所謂的ACP跟簽署AD必須要提高量能這個也不是開今天委員會才產生的結果是剛剛透過部長 透過司長自己本身都有答覆相關委員的這樣垂詢的過程裡面我們所得到的這樣的一個答案也就是說從本法實施到現在"},{"start":13756.107,"end":13777.012,"text":"每一個人都非常清楚將近六年時間那不到一趴不到0.05趴的這樣的不到0.05的這樣的一個簽署的人數到成儒部長所回應委員相關委員的答詢說這個吻合率我不曉得這個吻合率的定義什麼叫吻合率那當然也有其他委員在追尋"},{"start":13778.172,"end":13800.415,"text":"真正有照當時簽署的AD然後去執行的這個執行率又是幾%我目前為止是沒有聽出任何答案但是部長有特別提到希望這個簽署AD的時候我們希望更嚴謹我們要提高這樣的品質要提高品質是從ACP就必須要來處理了"},{"start":13801.636,"end":13826.164,"text":"但剛剛黃委員也有詮詢不過我並沒有聽出司長針對部長所講的所謂的簽署ACPAC所謂的這個預例醫療的照顧諮商的如何提高品質反而我是聽到司長答詢過程裡面是針對如何提高服務的量能包含從醫院的附屬機構婦女之家然後可以外展諸如此類"},{"start":13826.884,"end":13836.192,"text":"的這個方向去討論嘛對不對所以到底部長講的這個如何提高這個ACP的醫療照護諮商的品質要如何提高很抱歉我從早上一直聽到現在我並沒有聽到這是第一點"},{"start":13843.999,"end":13866.156,"text":"那第二點 我有沒有聽到所謂的已經簽署的疫力醫療決定書之後它的執行率到底是多少因為我只聽到吻合率是七成嘛那第三點 這是一個不爭的事實我想各位今天所有的委員應該多數啦多數都覺得說這個ACP的諮商的會用希望以後公部門重建保署"},{"start":13866.876,"end":13877.92,"text":"等等等來做相關的指引那我們從去年的7月已經有做部分的這樣的一個病症的還有病人的指引那今天5月1號又擴大65歲重大疾病等嘛那因為我聽到"},{"start":13883.382,"end":13900.831,"text":"這樣的一個發展我當然非常樂觀其成也看到蠻欣慰就是衛福部積極要來面對這個事情處理這個事情甚至要把ACP的相關的幾乎從健保裡面擴大相關的這些對象但是問題來了當"},{"start":13903.758,"end":13930.046,"text":"當我們市長講說每年兩萬多人我們要提高到四萬多人要增加兩萬五千人基本上我當然是支持但你如何去提高你如何去提高因為剛剛市長所講的幾個面向基本上你要有百分之一百五十的成長還是百分之一二五的成長我是覺得市長是不是要講明確一點你的方法"},{"start":13931.432,"end":13951.521,"text":"這個法律是正確的這個法律往前走的過程裡面它的執行力它的預期目標我們沒有辦法去在時間內達到那我們現在想要快速的去達到那你把設定一年要增加兩萬五的人這個來參與這個醫療的招募諮商的這個人數你如果去達標"},{"start":13958.496,"end":13986.862,"text":"我希望你可以明確跟委員會說清楚這是第一點第二點你必須要給委員會一個適宜因為剛剛署長講說5月1號開始擴大65歲65歲的重大疾病等那兩類人數就高達180萬還不包含還不包含他原有的在去年開放的給付的對象"},{"start":13989.912,"end":14011.777,"text":"也不包含身心健康主動要來簽署的主動要諮商加簽署的都不包含我再簡單的比喻說如果180萬照現金每年執行然有做ACP到簽署的這是兩個層次問題啦我們講說ACP就好2萬180萬除以2萬要幾年才可以完成"},{"start":14022.711,"end":14044.739,"text":"如果變成四萬五要錢才可以完成不包括去年開始補助的部分不包括健康的主動要來簽署的要來接受要來要諮商的這是第二件事情那第三件事情這不是我說的吧很清楚北一聯講的"},{"start":14050.046,"end":14062.491,"text":"部長應該很清楚嘛 今天開這個會我想牧產單位應該提供給相關資料給你當病處法開始正式實施的時候平均啦 要去做諮商的要掛多久一到三個月一到三個月我這邊有北藝連的這樣的一個對外的說法我有這個花蓮慈濟醫院的說法那如果是這個樣子"},{"start":14077.782,"end":14101.514,"text":"你如果兩萬變成到四萬五要怎麼解決要怎麼處理現在姑且都不修法我們知道這個法律的目標方向是正確但是在執行上執行率就偏低的情況之下你要如果透過行政的作為透過相關的補助"},{"start":14104.041,"end":14113.751,"text":"透過你所講的只有擴大一個小的範圍或怎樣如果讓你可以提升這樣的服務量能兼顧到品質今天是因為有這樣的情況所以才有委員主動的來提供應該朝向修法的這樣的一個範疇來做處理"},{"start":14128.3,"end":14147.014,"text":"當然啦 當然修啊是不是可以可以就一步到位那也到位必啦但是可能有一些原有在執行的過程裡面我們就開始檢視的第幾條第幾條是不是應該有一些修正有一些放寬甚至有一些必須要更嚴謹"},{"start":14148.52,"end":14175.708,"text":"剛剛黃委員有特別提到如果已經簽了預立醫療決定書到時候病患家屬有意見的情況之下要怎麼處理我坦白講這條文裡面規範得很清楚如果病患本身已經無意識的情況之下就是要照當時病患所簽的醫院人所簽的預立醫療決定書去執行法律有明文規定"},{"start":14177.193,"end":14190.252,"text":"他可不可以發生在第七款第十四條的第一項裡面的第一款跟第五款因為他可能是默契但是他意識清楚有可能他想要復活他想要變化他想要出來裡面的營養他要去改變嘛對我看也有可能啊"},{"start":14193.897,"end":14219.144,"text":"但是如果他是在第二款的這個第三款的植物人第二款的昏迷不可逆的情況之下他要怎麼去跟你變他要怎麼跟你再還回他的家屬怎麼可以不依照病患當時還是清楚的情況之下簽訂的預立醫療決定書去做任何改變那有可能火力就定在這邊啊"},{"start":14224.236,"end":14241.125,"text":"所以我現在是今天從早一直聽到現在,我覺得到底是,大家覺得這些事情是必須要做的,也覺得這個遷鎖量是不足的,這個好像應該大家都沒有爭議嘛,但是我們怎麼擴大這個量能,有很多的方式管道。"},{"start":14246.862,"end":14272.477,"text":"除了行政的作為 除了健保 健保署那修法裡面 難道不是也是解決之一嗎對不對 但是你們好像就把修法 馬上就把它關起來這個我覺得不太對吧我個人感覺不太對嘛不然我最後再講一個啦今天衛福部 坦白講就是要做利益眾生的事情嘛"},{"start":14273.51,"end":14297.405,"text":"對不對,我們要利益什麼益,要利益什麼眾生很多人都提到,臺灣人口結構就是叫做生不如死嘛CBBC會比較少嘛,對於2021現在也適當啊再來,我們需要善終的病患,如果一直做無效的醫療他就一定叫做生不如死啦,這是另外一種狀態嘛,對不對"},{"start":14300.716,"end":14327.284,"text":"那今天我們明明知道病出華來整個實施過程裡面就是為了要讓這些病患還是健康的人未來可能遇到這14條的第一款到第五款的其中一款的情況之下都未雨綢繆的面對自己未來的人生的生命的規劃更有尊嚴更能夠善終我們要降低這種無效醫療這也是"},{"start":14329.245,"end":14343.478,"text":"這也是在利益眾生嘛那也是利益家屬嘛不要到最後讓家屬就剛剛委員提到的病患本身可能有所還回還是說家屬有很多的意見我們就是要利益眾生讓家屬不要去尊重當時這個病人自主所簽訂的醫療決定書了嘛對不對"},{"start":14355.026,"end":14366.83,"text":"這也是在利益啊 不管是利益家屬 不管是利益這個病患也是利益在健保署啊 為什麼這麼講我覺得用補助這兩個字實在是太沉重了 也不夠專業但我們知道 這個法來實施的情況之下就是可以朝向降低所謂的無效醫療嘛"},{"start":14378.393,"end":14397.022,"text":"降低無效醫療也就等同於叫做降低健保給付嘛降低健保費用嘛我們去做個評估雖然一年兩萬多到現在十萬就像部長所講的五合率就像執行率到底降低了多少的無效醫療"},{"start":14398.967,"end":14421.432,"text":"來換算我們今天2500到3500的這樣的擴大相關的群組的補助加總起來 加減起來到底還是幾戶無效一人的幾戶大過於我們現在做這些ACP的智商的費用多過多少 還是少了多少還是我們必須要在幾年內可以把這樣趕過來"},{"start":14423.581,"end":14431.264,"text":"所以我想為政者基本上開源節流這樣的一個作為跟智慧啦跟應變這是必要的條件啦所以我們不能一直在說我們要做這件事就給健保負擔多少給健保支付多少我們可能不會管理所以我們現在一百八十萬人一個人三千就五十四億對"},{"start":14447.284,"end":14468.654,"text":"你必須要是休息調整但是問題是你去度薪多少出來等你一百八十萬人 比較適合來簽嗎然後醫療證書也都簽嗎對不對 好 但是也真的度到像你講的穩合率或執行率差不多20%就好 還是20%我們抓到30%那可以減少多少的無效醫療的費用"},{"start":14471.325,"end":14494.361,"text":"不是很清楚啦,我們台灣人平均臥床的時間,這都外界講的,那正確數字是多少?是七年?是八年?是六年?七八年嘛對不對?七八年都在那裡,給他做那個不好的醫療,要花多少錢?多少人?要多花多少錢?給多少人就好喔?但是現在多少人要給他?是要兩千五、三千五的ACP的智商費用"},{"start":14496.647,"end":14515.122,"text":"這個要你們很專業的去做評估今天在這個委員會我們大家可以好好來討論你們提供出來更精準的數字就像ACP我再請教一下ACP育育醫療照顧諮商算不算一個醫療行為部長我講這麼多你可以先回應我一句話嗎"},{"start":14522.457,"end":14550.297,"text":"如果諮商應該不屬於醫療行為但是諮商的內容是在討論醫療行為是啦沒有錯嘛一樣嘛我今天要去買一個醫療的保險嘛我今天要去買一個醫療防癌的保險嘛那我在跟你討論醫療保險你賣我醫療保險的商品的內容的時候是不是叫醫療行為相對是不是在討論未來你可能遇到什麼狀況要接受什麼醫療的時候我這個"},{"start":14551.38,"end":14557.908,"text":"癌症的還是相關的醫療保險要幾戶嘛所以在資商的範圍裡面我們要如果講說它叫做醫療行為"},{"start":14562.259,"end":14566.602,"text":"他在討論醫療,沒有錯啊,他是不是醫療行為跟保險稍微不一樣啦,譬如我舉個例子譬如說病人說你人工輸液營養有1條嘛,上面是維持生命的治療"},{"start":14581.972,"end":14596.794,"text":"一定你們不說什麼叫做維持生命治療 那就很難了是從壓胸 插管 打強心劑然後漸漸到要不要用抗生素 要不要用那個這些東西"},{"start":14597.875,"end":14616.113,"text":"說實在的我是花了30年照顧過2萬個默許病人在安寧病房這30年來慢慢還是學到的所以的確是相當的深奧啦這個品質是無止境我們要去成長所以討論的這個部分的確是需要有專業人員"},{"start":14618.646,"end":14645.142,"text":"來表達然後譬如說人工輸液好了在什麼時候不應該去是不是應該用鼻胃管的是不是應該去開個胃躁揉的或者打部分的營養劑或者是前營養劑這其實都是要針對病人的一個狀況這個我相信在ACP的時候一定會去討論人家病人一定會去問問的時候我們要如何回答不然怎麼簽下去"},{"start":14646.536,"end":14673.662,"text":"主席是這樣啦這法叫做病人自主決定法嘛對不對我們現在補助諮商會的是針對有病症的嘛對不對沒有錯嘛過去是不給付過去不給付在署長之前是把他認定ACP不是醫療行為所以不給付那現在給付了就叫做醫療行為署長就笑了"},{"start":14674.844,"end":14680.819,"text":"這第一點那第二點我們是針對病患的時候或許部長講這樣是一個範疇那像身體健康的"},{"start":14683.069,"end":14706.175,"text":"我是身體健康的我要做醫療諮商的他還是會問後面那我要勾對不對我要勾我要不要接受同意我到時候不做維持生命治療他一定會問你不管是健康的一定會問啊那個是遇到14條第一項裡面的1到5款的情況之下"},{"start":14706.815,"end":14718.585,"text":"在那個當下發生的時候才會有所謂的醫療行為嘛但我在諮商的時候怎麼會有醫療行為所以要有專業的一個要有專業的說明啦是 專業的說明就是有提供育育醫療照護諮商治醫療機構管理辦法第四條嘛講得很清楚嘛 對不對諮商機構應組成育育醫療這個照護諮商團隊與像解身諮商團隊"},{"start":14731.335,"end":14758.841,"text":"至少包括現在人員嘛第一個醫師一人應具有專科醫師資格嘛對不對第二護理人員一人應具有兩年以上臨床實務經驗嘛第三心理師或社工人員一人應具有兩年以上實務經驗但是這個第二條第二項諮商機構的就前項第二款或第三款人員則依設置第一項人員應完成中央主管公告"},{"start":14760.721,"end":14782.588,"text":"治癒醫療照護諮商訓練課程也就是說他還是必須要不管你是醫師不管你是護理師不管你是社卿人員你還是要完成所謂的諮商訓練課程嘛對不對醫師四個小時嘛護理社工心理六到十一個小時嘛今天今天今天這個當時這個管理辦法"},{"start":14785.543,"end":14798.068,"text":"那個時代定下來的情境嘛好我們現在都是一樣依照這樣去執行啊沒有錯啊但是不講現狀遇到什麼狀況當北醫連這麼講當花蓮慈濟這麼講的時候當相關的醫院這麼樣的醫療緊繃的情況之下醫師還要來做這些事情"},{"start":14814.81,"end":14821.535,"text":"你覺得現狀對醫師是好對想要去做ACP的對象是好這個大家在討論我們有訂建我們有說一定醫師非做不做不可是現今的狀況掛一個號從開始實施開始實施到1080到現在喔就是平均要去掛的就是一個月等到三個月啊現在5月1號"},{"start":14844.652,"end":14851.876,"text":"署長這邊在支付65歲以上的180萬人當然不可能180萬人馬上做也不可能馬上18萬1萬8就好了你怎麼做下去你做不下去啦"},{"start":14860.595,"end":14882.367,"text":"你絕對做不去嘛你現在擴展以後 其實場地 場域也擴展很大診所也都可以做的嘛診所可以做 我堅持我支持啊 可以啊所以應該是那個場域喔擴展到很大啦 沒錯你是醫生啦 會保健也對不對全國的醫術國會律師隊 台北市醫術國會律師隊這兩屆立委 還撲書"},{"start":14886.775,"end":14901.384,"text":"你開清掃,我來幫你支撐,對不對?跟你看一個備份,你怎麼選擇?我當然會預約時間,譬如說我...預約嘛,對,預約嘛。我預約時間,我可以看望鏡,普通人現在都這樣啦,可以看望鏡。阿,月報約一段時間,有的是去做居家,月報有的是去刷店,他也可以約在月報,看兩三個房子,這樣來解決他的可能,因為這個有社區醫療群,"},{"start":14916.451,"end":14918.012,"text":"我覺得部長我們有一起到過日本參觀過"},{"start":14939.151,"end":14959.759,"text":"不只是日本這個都蠻受到他們那個就是日本的那個評鑑制度跟我們不一樣嘛對不對他們那些評鑑師去列舉的就是優良的很棒的這些互惹人性互惹更好的這樣的一個級別的產道機構我們都有去參訪過嘛那甚至有美國的這個NGO團體特別到日本去認證這種機構都是Top的啦"},{"start":14969.042,"end":14987.694,"text":"他們的長照機構很多都是多資種一起進入嘛他們在機構裡面可以申請健保幾戶也一併可以處理可以接受保險也一併可以來做雙種處理嘛那我就不清楚吧你當然也可以要你自己想到要開放更寬的這個範疇開放到診所那為什麼長照機構不行"},{"start":14993.161,"end":15015.18,"text":"我就不清楚了,長照機構絕對不是像蘇委員所講的,人家說這幾天在想說,你連廟都會開放嗎?可以外展服務到長照機構外展可以到長照機構嘛,對不對?你們開宗明義,你們答覆我們的公文,你們答覆我們的報告書裡面,你寫到這三個外國,我就看不到了你把地高調到地十四條,你把我混到一團"},{"start":15017.161,"end":15045.926,"text":"我不清楚你為什麼要把這種事情混在一塊啊你至始至終坦白講你對金鑄環境環核准之護理機構、長照機構、心理治療所、心理治療所、社工室、事務所或法人的這個提供的預立醫療諮商、照護諮商這是一件事情,就一個句號嘛你在講經一位醫師診斷後末期這是在講第十四條的第一項的第一款嘛"},{"start":15049.98,"end":15077.875,"text":"你為什麼要把兩件事情放在一塊我們要解釋的是說過去我們在機構管理這邊透過醫療機構的外展服務然後那像診所端的其實他的相關的設計人員沒有其實可以不用他自己所謂的專任的這件事情所以在目前的制度執行上面其實有他的彈性空間在然後這一次的擴大的部分的話其實我們也希望用這樣子的量能來做一個擴大"},{"start":15078.775,"end":15103.159,"text":"然後那我們意思是這邊的話其實是很多的醫師受完訓之後他其實是怎麼樣去提供這樣服務我們現在看到的落差的弱點是在不敢去提供服務所以我們會有那個輔導團隊來協助提供服務這樣子增加量能的部分我們覺得是增加量能的嘛 對不對你現在答覆跟我要做的事情目標是一致嘛"},{"start":15104.18,"end":15124.938,"text":"寬寡上的落差我覺得是還是有啦 還是有我尊重啦 但是這兩件事情是不一樣的東西你把它放在一塊就不對嘛我簡單講一下第九條第一項第一款的修正我們是在就像你講的嘛我們要增加的諮商的這個機構嘛不增加目前醫療機構的執行負擔嘛"},{"start":15126.943,"end":15154.631,"text":"我的想法是這樣 我不曉得想法是不是這樣 這第一啦那第二 我們這次的計劃是針對現在在臨床上遭遇到有困難有障礙的地方來進行處理所以因此必須回歸到現今的醫療現場狀況嘛你現在已經是做得起沒嘛 這樣嘛醫事人力真的有這麼充裕嗎 部長所以剛剛有特別提到 台北四年一目前關牌ACP就高達一到三個月啊你可以馬上徵詢嘛 台北執行院也要一個月啊"},{"start":15156.105,"end":15179.708,"text":"跟你講就開始送到現在就是要一到三個月啊有改善了嗎有改變了你先保護我這個嘛有嗎我要講的是說過去一直大家來講的困境就是對醫院而言incentive也不夠量也不夠的情況下面要開更多的門診的這件事所以我才會覺得是要開更多的門診對因為排隊塞車所以要開更多的門診"},{"start":15182.27,"end":15195.179,"text":"我們沒有我在講是說過去一直在大家在講的是困境所以我們才會什麼樣的困境你講的困境跟我認知的困境不就不一樣嗎"},{"start":15196.293,"end":15222.681,"text":"所以我才會是說委員在這邊講的第一個是說塞車這個問題所以我們才會是說如果直覺的反應是開門診的這件事情那為什麼不善用基層的這一塊而且人都學過我沒有反對你要開放基層這一塊啊我從頭到尾沒有反對啊是你在反對我要擴大這些機構啊你不能講是你在反對我反而說我在反對你啊亂講啊"},{"start":15225.546,"end":15231.591,"text":"自始至終我到現在跟你在對話的過程裡面誰反對你 看到證書所我第一次看到一個報告顯成這樣我第一次看到 柏中你如果做過兩天的事 你覺得看過這種報告"},{"start":15250.778,"end":15266.501,"text":"你中間許十幾條你回應我兩條 除了你給我英文不是只有針對回答我 包括王委員你怎麼回其餘條文僅部分文字及配合實務運作修正無影響執行上的成效我就看你怎麼樣檢視你的執行上的成效了你 市長今年你要增加到四萬五喔我們說四萬呢"},{"start":15280.27,"end":15284.455,"text":"好啦 減五千也沒關係啦我看你要逼死誰啊我看你要逼死誰啊現在已經是五月一號了第二劑過一半了你要從兩萬多變成四萬百分之一百啊擴大診所 我支持"},{"start":15304.798,"end":15314.307,"text":"醫療機構延伸到護理之家外展我也支持 都沒有跟你反對那我請教一下講這些護理機構 床照機構 心理治療所 心理治療師你為什麼要反對我們在講的是協作的部分大家本來都是可以一起參與的因為本來在那個團隊裡面就會有這樣子的職類的人其實大家一起協作是沒有問題的啊是啊 沒有問題的啊 那你講啊"},{"start":15334.648,"end":15352.689,"text":"這個你答覆嘛,有關修正條文,因為程序對象會用自應多方面,愛各界達成共識,所以我們所有委員的提案,提的所有的修正條文,就是沒有一條適用嘛,沒有一條符合要讓整個ACP的服務量能提升。"},{"start":15353.686,"end":15364.435,"text":"我們所修的每一條就是讓要簽署AD的這個量能可以提升我們所修的每一個條文對ACP的品質也沒辦法提升"},{"start":15366.801,"end":15382.993,"text":"AD也沒有辦法提升沒辦法增加對 那沒關係那我們就拭目以待嘛我們就要看你意思思健保署如果今天在5月以後不再擴大我就要看你如何去達標嘛達到你講的嘛那你現在設定這個標兩萬多變成4萬是什麼標是最低標還是中標還是你自己設定的標"},{"start":15395.119,"end":15416.673,"text":"這剛剛講的5月要開始的180萬,你如何把相關的去執行的這樣的一個目標,存給委員會啊,多久可以完成啊。不包含這個啊,包含其他的7月份,包含健康的,要來盡早接受育育醫療照護諮商的對象。"},{"start":15424.644,"end":15450.507,"text":"我想我們是非常開放的態度,如果臨床上真的需要改善的或需要修訂的,我們都是完全開放的態度來處理請委員放心,我們都可以來討論、來看怎麼樣修正但是最重要就是達到量跟值的一個提升,來照顧我們的病人"},{"start":15451.792,"end":15466.402,"text":"好 沒錯 我想大家都要做對的事情 要做好的事情 要做利益中心的事情嘛 對不對但是不通記名就有偏見啦也不通記名就叫自己自己很厲害"},{"start":15469.264,"end":15478.809,"text":"我認為當各位議員提出相關的手法案的時候,我認為經濟機關應該是先去面對,不然我就必須提出更好的手法,可以達成他們的目標。我簡單說,你們到現在連目標也沒有定。"},{"start":15488.795,"end":15508.736,"text":"你如果說就變成四萬了,你如果變成四萬,你人家是有辦法擴大到所有你講的這樣的一個範疇什麼時候開始執行,什麼時候可以到位,沒有勒,也完全沒有勒然後我今天講說你這樣會不會造成更緊繃的醫療能力,會不會你這個要去思考啊,你們都來自醫界啊"},{"start":15510.863,"end":15517.91,"text":"我這是善意提醒啦好謝謝謝謝劉建國召委的充分發言也謝謝部長跟市長的答詢下一位請陳培韻發言謝謝主席我可以直接請那個社家屬的人嗎謝謝"},{"start":15540.6,"end":15546.565,"text":"那部長可以休息一下 但是還是要請部長聆聽就好了 不用上台沒關係好 社交署 謝謝好 組長無安我想快速跟您討論一下關於兒童托育服務法因為我知道現在修法在即 我想要先確認一下現在進度是已經送進院會了嗎"},{"start":15563.499,"end":15581.016,"text":"下一張委員好我是我們科長好是科長已經送進院會了嗎關於兒童托育服務法行政院已經審查完畢了那後續會走程序來送立法院好所以看起來已經定案了嗎那可能後續我們辦公室的很多研究可能只能在後續修法的"},{"start":15582.577,"end":15602.021,"text":"協商當中討論不過沒關係我還是要提出幾個觀點我不確定在你們現行的版本裡面我們其實看不到一些進度來第一個我們認為關於所謂的不適應保姆這件事情其實在之前的凱凱案的時候我們做了一些加成管理跟修法的部分那我認為可是還有更多優秀的保姆他需要被獎勵所以我今天會分兩個部分第一個是關於不當對待的處罰目前我們在你們的版本托育人員相關違反相關規定的版本裡面"},{"start":15610.723,"end":15625.32,"text":"有把這個違反的情節分成所謂違法情節重大或者是違法尚非情節重大或者是違法情節輕微者我很好奇你們到時候要怎麼定義這個東西是在相關執法或行政命令當中說明嗎因為這個樣態我認為非常的複雜"},{"start":15628.971,"end":15641.894,"text":"而我們會定相關的執法那另外針對調查人員會來做培訓好所以調查員的培訓你們想像中什麼樣的人可以來幫這些調查員上課什麼樣的專家學者哪一些領域的"},{"start":15643.727,"end":15660.005,"text":"有一些是法律專家也會有實務的工作者我們這邊會參考目前教育部在培訓教保人員的這些不當對待人員的調查人員的訓練來去做規劃好所以調查人員確定有培訓因為所謂調查人員是種子調查員之後他們就可以去做後續的調查對不對"},{"start":15663.148,"end":15668.394,"text":"好可是如果在現場第一時間的判斷的樣態非常複雜我認為我們行政機關還是要先主動的來想像這個樣態會是什麼當然因為現在修法在即我認為還有很多事情要討論我只是先做出善意的提醒好第二個"},{"start":15678.246,"end":15695.101,"text":"我們看到現在很多保姆不當行為目前的處置辦法呢就是他有被抽檢到發現說他把小孩丟在家裡然後他就跑去買菜了或者是讓小孩趴睡而目前這個抽檢的狀況呢他都只是留下一個記錄他也沒有辦法公開甚至我們也沒有把這個違法的"},{"start":15695.922,"end":15708.308,"text":"我們以為是事情很小這些違法的樣態呢做成對於這個保姆的評價的內容我認為這個很有問題那很多專家學者也已經提出建議我不知道你們後續在這件事情上的態度是什麼"},{"start":15710.065,"end":15737.688,"text":"呃這個部分就像委員的簡報所看到我們在我們的托法的第8條已經明定我們未來會有針對托育服務的內容跟其他事項去訂定一個實施準則讓第一線還有我們的相關執法人員對於這個樣態的部分有更明確的一個那個證定沒錯就是你說這個實施準則可是我要說的是所謂好的服務樣態你們會寫嗎這個大家都會列可是哪些是不能踩的紅線我認為應該要寫清楚"},{"start":15738.578,"end":15758.083,"text":"我們會參考那個教育部目前的定法跟我們拖鷹的食物的一個操作來去定這個執法或者是你們應該也要跟地方居托中心討論他們在過去收集相關的違法的案例當中有哪些樣態是你們認為生物主管機關所不能接受的我們也才可以跟一般人民交代可以嗎"},{"start":15758.903,"end":15765.091,"text":"好OK好很積極來再來我們講到獎勵的部分目前各縣市托育費用的調整狀況說實話22個縣市都不一樣"},{"start":15769.781,"end":15799.001,"text":"薪水的狀態也不一樣加薪的幅度也不一樣可是目前之所以會產生這個困境是因為這些保姆的薪資是由中央交給地方政府自行訂定所以產生個性是落差很大有沒有機會帶回中央來討論如何設定一個好的薪資集聚或者是調薪的邏輯跟原則讓願意留在這個產業照顧小孩的這些保姆們他們會覺得這件事情是有意義跟有價值的"},{"start":15799.861,"end":15813.112,"text":"像我自己現在服務的馬祖六年來一次都沒有漲可是高雄六年就調薪了三次那當然跟當地的物價水準有關也跟服務的樣態有關可是我認為我們中央還是要有一些態度不知道這件事情你怎麼看"},{"start":15814.606,"end":15843.285,"text":"我們在未來的托法已經會明訂有關保姆的收費項目的部分會由中央統一訂那收費的數額的部分因為還是考量到各地方政府他的物價指數等等的部分會由地方政府來去訂這個價格那我們之前也有透過相關的會議去要求各地方政府因為現行我們的管理辦法其實就有明訂地方政府要定期去依照狹內的物價指數去訂這個可是因為沒有他們沒有做到嘛所以"},{"start":15845.386,"end":15861.596,"text":"對所以後續所以我們剛剛有提到我們有在相關的聯繫會議要求地方政府要回到他們自己的托育委員會去檢視他們保姆的一個定價的一個合理性好 我覺得要更積極啦好 我們有相關辦法但是縣市政府如果不做我們好像也沒有辦法對不對"},{"start":15862.557,"end":15879.74,"text":"好再来我们也希望可以建立优良保姆的奖励跟公开机制目前的平台上面我们可以查到的是所谓有证照的合法保姆可是我认为在过往我们都没有奖励所谓优秀的保姆这件事情有没有机会在未来的平台上可以注记所谓的优良保姆名单建立奖励机制"},{"start":15880.861,"end":15898.827,"text":"這個我們後續可以再跟地方政府再討論看什麼樣的一個資訊可以再揭露出來讓家長選擇好那要揭露資訊他就有搭配相關辦法所以我想後續這個都再來討論好最後一個家外安置的兒少受到居家推育的照顧目前我們要看到很多"},{"start":15899.747,"end":15917.907,"text":"被居家托育的孩子他可能就是原生家庭出了狀況嗎那你們目前現在做法呢不管他是到寄養家庭或者是安置機構他其實還會有居家托育的部分目前中央有訂定地方政府所謂運用居托人員照顧家外安置兒童處理的原則可是我們認為這個原則現在有些問題想要跟你們討論第一個"},{"start":15920.209,"end":15949.949,"text":"因為這些孩子都是身心受過傷的他的照顧難度比較高雖然居托的保姆有搭配相關的職能培訓可是居托中心的仿事員並沒有相關的職能跟培訓所以比起所謂的兒少保社工我們認為這些仿事員缺乏所謂家外安置相關的評估照顧狀況跟理解這個風險的能力所以我們也懷疑甚至我們擔心很多轉介單位很容易把個案視為是一般的居托案"},{"start":15950.689,"end":15977.786,"text":"也就是原本这些身心受伤的孩子他就被评估为一般居家托育案件而不会完整的揭露所谓安置儿童跟原生家庭的资讯那我们如何考虑到这个被安置儿少的特殊性他不应该一体直接适用所谓居托寄有的规范这些事情听起来有困难但是我认为在凯凯案身上我们应该要学到这个教训所以我想问一下这件事情有没有机会往下讨论我们是直接建议修改处理原则的三四五"},{"start":15980.249,"end":16006.124,"text":"因為這個涉及到委員這邊有具體的一個修正的建議最後我們再跟委員辦公室再來做討論這麼多具體的建議我們希望可以在一個月內積極跟社家署展開相關會議討論雖然說你們說已經送到院會後續要走相關程序但我認為在後續修法會議當中我們看到現場所反映出來的狀況我們真的還是要改善入法好嗎好 謝謝社家署 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳培文委員的發言謝謝社家署的答詢"},{"start":16007.515,"end":16027.108,"text":"下一位 仰號委員發言請謝謝主席 主席請一下邱部長請邱部長委員好 部長好"},{"start":16029.023,"end":16049.094,"text":"部長我先確認幾個問題因為我們病人自主潛力法上路那麼久了台灣簽署的人數未達一趴到底最主要的原因是什麼當然我們這個原因應該是有多重因素"},{"start":16058.346,"end":16080.597,"text":"當然過去的調查會顯現說因為他的費用比較費用的因素是一個因素但是是不是一個絕對的因素在有待觀察這樣子好那我就先講費用因為部長講到費用是健保不給付對不對從去年開始7月"},{"start":16088.43,"end":16097.434,"text":"住院的那5月又擴展到65歲上的一個多重疾病我是這樣子建議啦齁我向來主張"},{"start":16103.823,"end":16127.177,"text":"把錢花在前端上像我覺得預防醫學多花一點錢後續的醫療支出就減少那也一樣就是就是疫力醫療可以減少以後很多很多無益無效的醫療所以我是主張盡量放寬"},{"start":16130.953,"end":16146.938,"text":"免費的健保給付的對象這個是我的主張第二個問題就是好像是劉金國委員的資料通常是對的所以假如說預約要立醫療"},{"start":16152.937,"end":16169.519,"text":"醫療簽署必須要那麼久的時間會不會也是影響簽署人數的一個很重要的因素部長覺得會不會因為他是預約還是預約得上所以到底"},{"start":16172.63,"end":16197.298,"text":"過去的研究裡面等候時間比較沒有在前面幾名前面幾名大概有兩大因素一個是費用一個是民眾認知就是醫院的問題這是兩大因素然後其他的以等候時間這邊的話有出現過可是它並沒有在前面所以它可能是一個影響因素可能不是主要影響因素以上就是說對於"},{"start":16199.098,"end":16222.295,"text":"疫力醫療決定的認知可能是一個因素對不對然後費用是一個因素那費用剛才我們講過了那有關疫力醫療的認知的問題還是要加強宣導因為我覺得像我個人就還蠻支持大家都去做疫力醫療的因為這個可以避免很多困擾"},{"start":16225.748,"end":16253.809,"text":"那假如說是真的也有部分的地區是必須要等候很久才能夠看到門診我想要請教一個問題就是我們簽署屹立醫療的時候呢是必須要我先問好了屹立醫療的簽署到底是不是醫療行為"},{"start":16257.554,"end":16272.966,"text":"你到底是不是醫療行為簽AD這個動作簽署這個鉤嘛 簽名這個應該不算醫療行為啦石川署長說不算那不算醫療行為"},{"start":16276.122,"end":16297.021,"text":"那我問一下就是因為簽署的時候我們必須要有醫師護理師然後心理諮商師社工等等我想問一下醫師到底在醫療的時候他的角色是什麼他扮演什麼角色"},{"start":16298.885,"end":16306.395,"text":"部長你懂我的問題嗎?我想這個辦法是過去定出來的啦,也不是我...那我現在,以我的個人經驗來講,那個在...因為..."},{"start":16315.947,"end":16331.095,"text":"說實在在開辦,譬如說某個醫院,像台大醫院在開辦這個諮商門診也是我們幫忙去設立的,當然我也會去看幾次裡面的角色醫師,因為他有兩大類,一個是說維持生命的治療"},{"start":16333.456,"end":16350.126,"text":"第二就是人工的營養輸益所以我現在一個民眾我同意到時候不用維持生命治療他一定會問你這是什麼東西"},{"start":16352.078,"end":16376.732,"text":"那你當然就會跟他講說這包括鴨胸啊那這個可能是護理師就可以像我啦 保定沒關係我也不想佔用太多時間因為我們現在是修法的大體詢問所以我是說大家想一想看要怎麼讓醫療更"},{"start":16381.494,"end":16401.039,"text":"更可見性提高一點啦我覺得應該是很多人都會因為現在的人就是人生終須一別嘛假如可以自己做決定的時候到我有法定的"},{"start":16404.478,"end":16432.596,"text":"規定的事項成就的時候我可以自己做決定這個我想很多人接受啦我們看透過這一次的修法能不能讓更多的人願意願意參與的人很方便就參與那不知道資訊的人讓他知道資訊好不好其他我們大概就是修法的時候再來做討論啦我還是要講一個健保的問題"},{"start":16437.027,"end":16456.256,"text":"部長總統拋出了健保不同工不同酬的想法保證你立場是什麼我想我支持啊應該那個尤其比較手術比較複雜的我大力支持而且我覺得風險醫療糾紛的風險越高的科別報酬也要不投"},{"start":16465.441,"end":16483.174,"text":"我覺得我們不應該再放任讓五大皆空就是說不能夠所有的給付都一樣然後醫師的人員每年控款一千三"},{"start":16484.437,"end":16510.4,"text":"然後讓這些人自由選擇科別那比較高風險工作繁重然後必須要緊急的像急診讓這些科別一直沒有人投入這個對於台灣高齡化發展趨勢這麼迅速的社會是很危險的一個現象"},{"start":16512.872,"end":16535.993,"text":"這個你們能不能趕快把它訂出來有啊 一直在努力要不要市長報告我們謝謝委員關心確實我們今年先從急診症開始所以急診的診察費還有護理費急性一般病床ICU這些我們都先調高今年一共預注42億"},{"start":16537.634,"end":16566.875,"text":"那另外接下來這個產科也是從今天5月1號開始夜間假日出來執行業務也加成30%所以這個都是相對風險高投入心力辛勞的接下來還有兒童重症那我們逐科逐科的會去討論調整現在你們調整的方向就是只有就內外婦兒急診的部分來做提高嗎"},{"start":16567.535,"end":16586.062,"text":"目前是這樣但是之後還會一直每一個外科啊什麼都是會對我的意思是有的要提高有的要減少這個沒有什麼好迴避的我大概也不怕被罵因為我覺得台灣的社會不應該不應該發展成這個樣子"},{"start":16591.071,"end":16608.929,"text":"我今天因為我也不想再用太多時間,下一次有機會的時候我們再來看看到底為什麼醫學系出來的時候,是不是我們在分科的時候就必須要做控管"},{"start":16610.53,"end":16623.622,"text":"補充你聽我的意思嗎這個都有空管都有空管只是依照這個國家的需求只是後來受過內外負額的專科醫師跑去做其他的業務"},{"start":16626.049,"end":16647.503,"text":"是不是這樣子當然也是有不是 部長假如講說我們現在就是在分科的時候就已經有比例的分配這個我是不知道假如有那就表示有一些人他是受外科的訓練可是他可能去開假移有時候有那個容額給他問題是遭不到足額遭不到足額"},{"start":16651.59,"end":16668.995,"text":"就是學生不願意台大外科29、20個跟R2的學生第二年就17個不是 我的意思是說我們也必須要從這裡就做控管因為我覺得這十幾年來我們對這個問題就是"},{"start":16678.766,"end":16699.451,"text":"口號喊得太多可是實際做出來因應的措施太少這個對於台灣整體的社會跟國民的就義權益是一個很大的損害其他的因為我不大想再用太多時間其他的我們下次再做討論好 謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝市長 謝謝主席"},{"start":16702.854,"end":16705.656,"text":"真正前委員不在,蔡議員不在,圖權級委員不在,核心組委員不在,請前委員來做詢問"},{"start":16729.115,"end":16749.528,"text":"謝謝主席,我們慢慢請邱部長還有林青鳳執行長跟社交組的組長部長好,等一下不好意思,那個社長,你是趙護士,抱歉趙護士,護士長"},{"start":16754.039,"end":16772.072,"text":"那社家署先看要做哪裡一下我看到趙護師陳副司長是不是是是是部長我先請教你大概多久見檢一次兩年吧"},{"start":16775.903,"end":16794.612,"text":"兩年 還可以 那那個執行長呢也是兩年 那個我們副市長呢也是兩年 你們都還蠻標準的那如果我這樣請教 如果你們住在十萬桶的核廢料旁邊你們覺得你要多久見檢一次十萬桶的核廢料旁邊你幾歲人可能每天都會有點緊張"},{"start":16804.832,"end":16817.597,"text":"會想要多健檢幾次嗎還是標準就好了一定會 頻率想要高一點頻率想要高一點那我再請教就是從1982年從這個核廢料儲存在蘭嶼那政府幫蘭嶼的這個居民健檢幾次1982年"},{"start":16828.079,"end":16836.607,"text":"這個數目有沒有對啊你如果兩年一次的話或者我說政府應該要幫忙他們健檢幾次但卻健檢了幾次我跟委員報告就是說10708年是有針對全對沒錯我知道你講的是這個蘭嶼居民健康檢查的這個專案的一個計畫嘛對不對就是107年11月14號到108年3月12號"},{"start":16855.222,"end":16875.107,"text":"好那就是這麼短的時間幾個月而已而且看起來是一次性所以這個核廢料是長期儲存在蘭嶼但是呢我們政府對於這個蘭嶼居民的這個健檢卻像是一夜情過了就沒了所以"},{"start":16877.165,"end":16902.5,"text":"剛剛部長點出一個很重要的事情就是說那個核廢料是長期儲存在蘭嶼嘛你如果住在旁邊你也會想要多健檢幾次嘛對不對 頻率想要高一點嘛所以我們政府應該對於這個蘭嶼居民的健康的這個風險的監測應該是一個持續性而不是一次性"},{"start":16903.26,"end":16919.438,"text":"的这个状态所以我不知道我这样提醒部长有没有认同我认同好谢谢那再来我就再继续讨论就是说刚才我们很感谢那个我们任仰台东的庄瑞雄总站委员说"},{"start":16920.799,"end":16936.363,"text":"國民黨夭壽他用騙的方式把10萬桶的55加侖的核廢料大罐頭丟在蘭嶼但是民進黨政府也不能只有甜言蜜語我原住民也說你好笑白浪"},{"start":16939.505,"end":16951.96,"text":"105年8月1號蔡英文總統特別代表政府向蘭嶼亞美族人道歉說過去的政府在他們不知情的情況下將核廢料存放在蘭嶼"},{"start":16954.963,"end":16977.881,"text":"當然在109年6月的時候呢本席也特別陪同了我們現在的賴清德總統也是時任的副總統特別到前往蘭嶼像這個我們去關心了地方的建設文化還有這個醫療我們特別去看了這個衛生所好像時署長那時候也有去嗎"},{"start":16979.723,"end":17000.095,"text":"那時候陣容還蠻龐大的當時特別亞美族大家非常尊敬的一位齊老他們稱作是資政他向賴清德總統表示就是說希望當地的醫療要加強當地的醫療資源"},{"start":17004.438,"end":17014.62,"text":"那我們的賴清德總統也跟他講回應說我們來其實政府就是要來解決問題的所以才會有後續"},{"start":17016.448,"end":17028.794,"text":"我們大家歷經了幾位部長還有我們相關各部門大家不斷的在討論說我們要怎麼樣來加強蘭嶼的醫療資源然後怎麼樣來擴大這個衛生所的量能然後怎麼樣擴大要怎麼蓋這個醫療院所"},{"start":17040.139,"end":17049.127,"text":"我有看你們紀錄你們也是很認真在討論只不過是最近就突然慢下來了所以今天前天我還特別打電話致電給新上任的吳清美鄉長我就請教她說如果我們到衛福部到蘭嶼"},{"start":17061.256,"end":17067.02,"text":"就特別在這個衛生所這個附近那一塊地那15塊地那邊把它蓋這個醫療院所你們反應怎麼樣有沒有諮商同意權的問題哇那鄉長突然那個語調高八度他說"},{"start":17077.928,"end":17106.61,"text":"我們非常的期待非常的歡迎資商統一權是公所要辦理的所以如果鄉長都這麼講了這有什麼問題那現在的問題就是我要來請教你們就是說你們的這個興建計畫到底什麼時候要提出因為提出之後還要抱怨這都需要時間的因為這個整個事情已經討論了六年了所以我請教部長"},{"start":17107.85,"end":17129.67,"text":"你今年可以提出嗎?新建計畫剛剛你有答應專委員說今年可以提出我想我們從108年看布裡面就針對這個一直在評估那中間也碰到土地轉移原來在某一塊那不行又轉移到衛生所這一塊那衛生所這一塊上面也有"},{"start":17133.352,"end":17158.019,"text":"所以當時我們是想說土地那個的問題那土地的問題如果能夠解決我想我們應該原來的規劃我覺得你們要回去講那個土地怎麼樣我就會覺得這落入一個雞生蛋蛋生雞的那個陷阱啦其實不管怎麼樣我都覺得你們同步去準備嘛你不報這個興建計畫你怎麼"},{"start":17160.08,"end":17174.319,"text":"有錢去採購那個土地 要怎麼去辦理所以我也 我們如果先不去講那個細節啦 我就問我就問說你的興建計畫 你什麼時候提出嘛"},{"start":17176.341,"end":17205.007,"text":"跟委員報告我們其實一直都是往在我們讓那個蘭嶼的醫療的量能夠增加也增加他的醫療的使用的空間因為現在看起來在這個部分裡面衛生署的功能其實已經到一個瓶頸那我們當然現在現在因為等於我們要抱一個貢獻計畫就是第一個要土地取得第二個就是說我們要知道說當地的需求是什麼醫師科別然後裡面還有因為他最主要地方這邊也跟我們提過說他要把衛生所"},{"start":17205.607,"end":17231.449,"text":"還有他的長照站要合在剛剛提到的這些也都沒有問題啊是 我們就是要跟地方現在難得有園民會啦 縣政府啦 公所大家都非常的配合就差你們什麼時候要提出抱怨嘛對啊 你說那麼多你們前面不是剛剛 我剛剛有坐在下面聽啊你們答應那個莊委員說今年會送出來嘛"},{"start":17232.39,"end":17235.193,"text":"他有提醒你們說我等下上來會追問幾月我們趕快了解那針對需求我們來提問不是我覺得你們在大小眼啊剛剛跟莊委員講說今年會送出嘛我就問一下幾月而已你連今年會送出的答案你都捨不得給我是因為他比較兇嗎還是怎麼樣"},{"start":17260.219,"end":17270.315,"text":"我們今年底以前送出來好了今年底以前送出 那所以今年底幾月份你十月可以嗎 十月已經算年底了"},{"start":17271.77,"end":17299.858,"text":"因為那個院還要核定嘛還需要時間因為前面已經等你們很久了監察院什麼那個都討論很久了趕快去了解整個醫療需求然後那個土地的狀況我們趕快再我給你們一個目標好不好10月好不好我們抓10月份那也留兩個月給行政院去讓他們趕快我們趕看看今年能不能給他核定嘛"},{"start":17300.888,"end":17324.105,"text":"我們是有示威來寫出計畫拜託啦那所以就是說剛剛那個土地我知道你們有那個兩筆佔用嘛還有一筆那個私人的我想那個費用應該也沒有很高啦而且齁我現在要講一下就我再替大家問一下就那你們那個預算編列齁傳輸規模大概是怎麼樣可以講一下嗎"},{"start":17327.028,"end":17343.485,"text":"因為這個部分還沒有跟我們像蘭嶼或是我們台東衛生局這邊談他們的需求所以我們會加緊腳步來跟他們談那需要多少的當然我們按照一些設施標準還有當地的所以現在不能講是不是那床數能不能講你們的規劃理想中"},{"start":17344.385,"end":17366.53,"text":"當時我們是大概有預估是20床啦 當時是有你還蠻誠實的 20床我有聽說 因為我本來有聽到35這個數字後來了解15床是洗腎用的 所以你還蠻老實的那20床就很夠用了嗎 這個是大概預估到比如說幾年還是我們要有遠見一點 有沒有要未雨綢繆"},{"start":17367.99,"end":17395.627,"text":"因為不只蘭嶼的居民嘛因為那個我舉個例子啦我剛才一直在講那個這個屏東就是恆春那個旅遊醫院重建醫療大樓這件事情那當時的那個蘇貞昌院長我真的很佩服他他就很霸氣的講說我們當地五萬居民但是你不能用五萬的量能去看因為他還有四百萬人次的這個"},{"start":17397.448,"end":17406.694,"text":"遊客後來他拍板定案用600萬的規模去看600萬人次的規模去看那一樣啊這邊床數以這個你們專業但是有遠見的評估20床夠不夠"},{"start":17414.301,"end":17431.816,"text":"你不一定要今天給我答案我也不敢講我就請你們就是說要有遠見的去規劃那即便你如果說有把握說他都不會碰壁我會把他照顧得好好的你剩10床我也沒有意見但是那不可能啦"},{"start":17435.153,"end":17447.206,"text":"所以我覺得這個預算的編列是一個態度的問題啦我們真的很羨慕很羨慕就是說有這樣的一個院長要蓋幾間便衣在他的家鄉"},{"start":17448.707,"end":17467.699,"text":"我現在只是做立法委員 我沒有當院長 不然我就會拍板訂案說你要蘭嶼蓋醫院 我要人給人 我要錢給錢經費無上限 這都是蘇貞昌院長以前講過的話我也希望說那個部長你有這樣子的豪氣 後來可能可以做議長這樣好不好"},{"start":17471.761,"end":17494.766,"text":"我們一定會努力來符合因為我們去思考這個經費要怎麼樣的匡列你可以這樣子想像就是說不要多我如果一桶55加侖的合費要放在你家旁邊就好或者你家裡面你覺得政府要給你多少錢才能夠補償你你這樣去想一想"},{"start":17496.241,"end":17523.175,"text":"對不對 可能你一毛錢都不想要因為健康無價嘛所以這個有時候預算無上限也合理啦好 那再來我就請教你們在這個部長的心目中就是說這樣的規劃你希望什麼時候可以動工啟用我們總要有一個目標啊不然永遠都會講說土地怎麼樣啦然後預算怎麼樣啊 對不對"},{"start":17525.816,"end":17549.004,"text":"可以規劃一下嗎?我們要有願景跟委員報告因為這個部分我們會報行政院那行政院這邊就是他們的公建計畫是有他們一定的流程所以我是說我們先不要就是說我們不要糾結在那邊啦我們要完成這件功德無量的事情"},{"start":17550.188,"end":17569.7,"text":"你的人生理想規劃中在我們過去在蓋部立院差不多都要兩年到三年啦這個部分等於是裡面還要有所謂的細部計畫那我可以從今年開始往後算三年嗎應該經費還沒有下來因為這個要到行政院我知道啊那我是說你要有願景啊"},{"start":17571.311,"end":17585.302,"text":"不然那個今年你們那個五六月大概衛福部又要報要準備明年的這個規劃那個預算的規劃嘛對不對你要有願景嘛不然你怎麼弄你們都老鳥了要用公正計劃我知道啦你不用抓個時程嗎"},{"start":17596.618,"end":17618.512,"text":"就是你總是有計劃嘛我現在講的很簡單的事情你現在我要講問你的理想上我沒有說你也不是院長我不可能我明天還會問院長啦所以院長說什麼時候他說了算我現在是問你的計劃你的規劃嘛院長一定會問你啊你要給你要講出一個答案讓他參考啊"},{"start":17619.736,"end":17633.138,"text":"不然遙遙無期 如果說公建計畫在那邊核准大概要三年我們在過去的醫院的經驗是這樣順利的話就是三年我想就是說很壓縮我們給自己很有壓力的我們努力"},{"start":17635.65,"end":17660.518,"text":"來達成這個事那我們就是大概預估三年的時間那我這樣也知道我明天跟院長對話的時候我也可以很清楚知道怎麼跟他討價還價給他設定一個期程所以我想就是說我們今天大家可以了解這樣的一個願景我們一直有持續在推動那"},{"start":17661.792,"end":17668.303,"text":"也最後就是要提醒再回頭講最前面那個健檢那個事情我覺得那個是政府的疏忽"},{"start":17670.067,"end":17696.167,"text":"我們核廢料並沒有馬上要給人家移走還不曉得要放多久搞不好這輩子就一直放在那邊所以給人家提供的那個健檢我覺得也不能只是一次性所以那個核廢料的這個健康風險我也希望說這個部分能夠納入這個醫院的功能然後要設置這個長期的這個健康監測的這個機制都是要有的"},{"start":17697.087,"end":17723.938,"text":"那另外要提醒最後要提醒就是說畢竟我們在這個醫院醫療院所我想醫療院所這樣比較好一點在完成之前起碼要有三年的時間那在這個完成之前這中間我們是不是可以做點什麼有什麼樣的機制可以補強這中間的一個空白還有過去彌補這個健檢的不足"},{"start":17725.919,"end":17738.784,"text":"所以這個部分你們是不是可以一併來快速的這個部分三年的配套機制可能就不是要讓你考慮很久你是不是可以在兩個月內提出來這個沒有問題"},{"start":17741.286,"end":17756.946,"text":"我想我們今天要求大概是這樣我想蘭嶼的居民也包括我的族人我們的陽美族人也在那邊其實真的受了非常多的委屈我今天必須要講"},{"start":17758.228,"end":17777.847,"text":"不管是過去的政黨誰很夭壽但是今天是民進黨執政我們不能只有說好聽的話我們要有具體的行動去實現去顧到他們的這個醫療平權這個很重要的一個權利我們大家一起努力 謝謝我們會努力 謝謝"},{"start":17785.063,"end":17811.903,"text":"好本日會議詢問全部結束那委員圖全集陳清輝所提書面諮詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在作為下決議第一說明及詢問完畢第二委員執行未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關兩周內以順便答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定第三並來自主權力法部門條本修正草案等三案另折起繼續審查那本次會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"160921","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160921","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc07e4c9d09294671a72bf9a8039e28b7ca6503c3010065837274a0a456827cbec75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"10:03:01 - 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謝謝主席我們有請速發部黃彥南部長好 黃部長部長好資料 資料 資料"},{"start":15.458,"end":42.937,"text":"沒有資料我們可能就沒有文化沒有主權也不會有AI那我們現在又面臨了這個美國中國他們也持續的在發展那我們現在談到這個媒體溢價法的時候其實我們也看到了速發部的報告裡面很清楚寫了倘若我國未來實施類似媒體溢價法不排除美國採取關稅報復措施其實剛剛的質詢你也提到"},{"start":43.777,"end":68.945,"text":"那我們也可以看到川普當時拿出這個小板板上面有台灣這個64%其實底下有一行小字啦就說這個非關稅壁壘包含在內所以如果我們這個媒體溢價法放進去很顯然的非關稅壁壘對美國來說就是提高的我想請教一下部長關於這件事情還有這個媒體溢價法可能造成的風險有沒有跟我們的關稅談判的團隊來同步過"},{"start":72.657,"end":91.49,"text":"那個報告委員我們現在是我們會有做這樣判斷是根據美國對澳洲跟加拿大事實上也有談判過所以我們是根據這樣判斷然後這個市長有去談判斷關稅談判的團隊知不知道知道"},{"start":92.711,"end":114.446,"text":"是 報告過了有報告過了我想這個訊息很重要大家要同步一下那我想速發部這裡在這個部分也做了很多功課也非常感謝也希望我們的政府各部會也都非常清楚那另外我們也看到中國大陸現在發展AI它因為它的政治體制非常特殊所以它可以無所不用其極地取得各種資料"},{"start":115.026,"end":143.455,"text":"那台灣在發展AI的時候呢因為台灣的著作權法可以說是舉世嚴格啦這個甚至還有刑法的罰則所以導致呢我們台灣的大語言模型的團隊在訓練的時候資料不足那當然我們知道資料是有價的可是現在就卡在這裡嘛人家有很多資料啊他可以拼命的訓練啊越多資料的AI可能就越聰明那台灣如果沒有資料已經不夠了我們又用了這樣子的一個媒體溢價法"},{"start":144.375,"end":163.341,"text":"當然我們還是認為資料有價可是我們如果卡在這裡不能進也不能退會不會造成我們的AI沒有辦法往前進所以我一直在行政院的院會質詢當中我都不斷的請教各個部會那現在書發部也是這塊的專業你們讚不讚成由行政院"},{"start":164.221,"end":182.631,"text":"可能其中的部會甚至也許就是速發部來建立國家層級的AI訓練資料庫來提供AI訓練所需要的這些資料當然也提供誘因因為其實媒體提供的這些新聞內容說不定也可以放進來做這個資料庫的一部分"},{"start":183.791,"end":202.628,"text":"這個部分有沒有可能來支持一下報告委員這個方向跟我想這個是沒有錯啦因為在AI的發展一定需要資料那台灣我們所謂的主權AI我們必須要有自己的資料所以我們在蘇發部資料創新師對這個議題有嚴定的一些條例跟一些方法我是不是請那個市長來這邊做個說明"},{"start":205.372,"end":220.209,"text":"報告委員就是有關於AI語料庫的訓練我們的做法是這樣子在過去我來講其實政府已經有5萬多筆的開放資料只要是標準授權的資料都可以讓各界來做運用包括語料的訓練當然大家可能會覺得說我們現在訓練的資料必須要是語譯連貫的自然語彙的方式"},{"start":225.615,"end":243.988,"text":"所以這個大量這些文本的政治家可能是涉及著作權的保護的議題那我們國家的著作權目前沒有對這個AI訓練語調做一個額外的一個條例的一個這樣子的一個修改但是在此之前我們也不會就是坐著等我們現在就是訂定了一個就是台灣主權AI訓練語調庫的授權條款那這個授權條款我們會再跟那個制裁局一起研議之後如果這個妥適性可以的話我們就會對外來公佈什麼時候會有結果預計時間表"},{"start":254.815,"end":280.572,"text":"我們在五月初的時候就會找制裁局先來學者大家先來研議那如果合理的話我們就可以把這樣子的一個授權條款釋出希望加速啦但因為這個資料庫也需要誘因那部長其實你也很了解區塊鏈的技術如何保存如何加解密如何做這個所謂的剛剛也有提到像分潤這種機制我覺得像資料點子資料經濟的做法我們希望要有一個國家級的訓練資料庫這個可不可以請部長來研議一下"},{"start":285.936,"end":308.389,"text":"那當然我想速發部自己作為這個軟體還有數位產業的這個部會我想近期呢衛福部有委託工研院來進行一個平台的計畫那預算呢是高達上億啦這個去年大概是4億今年可能還會追加2點多億那但是呢發生了有這個挪用美國的這個開源軟體來做修改"},{"start":308.849,"end":323.918,"text":"但沒有清楚標示的這個狀況所以我們還是想要來請教一下速發部有沒有掌握部會在這個採購案上面對於開源條文的落實的情況這個速發部有沒有做一個全面的盤點跟理解"},{"start":324.358,"end":353.433,"text":"否則我們的政府部會這個很高的預算左手發給右手結果呢是用開源的軟體比例根本就不清楚也不知道怎麼查核這一塊有沒有在進行委員講得沒錯開源軟體現在是一個使用開源軟體是一個趨勢那怎麼去做規範我是不是請那個蘇貞淑跟委員報告我們有一個政府軟體採購的共同供應契約我們會講Expo那有沒有推到各個部會對那個是我們幫各個部會去訂約的那他們有沒有一定要用"},{"start":354.642,"end":380.9,"text":"有没有看一下他们用的情况他们很多都有用好 这个部分要持续了解不然的话为什么我们今天会不会出现这个状况那开源授权的教育跟合规的这个协助我们也希望抒发部可以来协助那我们个人是认为说政府应该要有一个开源办公室那抒发部有没有机会来考虑作为一个开源制度化的一个示范部门来成立一个开源办公室还是已经有了"},{"start":381.36,"end":407.45,"text":"我們請國際市他在這個開源方面有很多很多的過去的一些計畫跟努力請他做個市長做個說明是先跟委員報告一下感謝委員的支持那有關於開源由數位發展部來當零頭示範的部分跟委員報告的確我們目前在推動的數位評測品牆它整體就是走開源模式我們是希望透過這個方式來引導各部位在開源就是有非常多的效益的是"},{"start":407.87,"end":420.437,"text":"好 謝謝這個開源數位皮夾專案我也有安裝你們也一直有說有開放程式碼但是開放程式碼跟開源其他人可以使用你們這次應該兩個都有公開程式碼跟開源都有"},{"start":424.159,"end":438.553,"text":"那我想作為一個示範我覺得很重要那其實我也非常支持速發部在推動的這個公共城市的平台但是其他部會在做公共的城市的時候好像沒有串聯的很好因為像衛福部跟公研院委託的這個專案他們有用到開源的軟體"},{"start":439.614,"end":454.62,"text":"可是卻在上面沒有辦法查得出來我希望書發部能不能有這樣的一個公共城市的平台跟其他的部會可以更積極的協調有相關運用到開源碼的專案就應該要在這裡可以查詢得到這個機制能不能再深化一下"},{"start":456.036,"end":478.076,"text":"是 跟委員報告這個開園的整個政策我們在去年其實在全台各地都有召開相關的說明會那我們也積極鼓勵各個部會能夠參與整個開園的推動那這個部分我們數位發展部也正在擬定相關看有沒有一些相關的行政的指引能夠協助各個部會推動 以上說明"},{"start":478.456,"end":496.645,"text":"所以我想希望這個速發部我們是不是一起來爭取一下從行政院的陳傑也好還是速發部也好我們來成立一個開源的辦公室這個是人工智慧學校基金會的秘書長也是很多人的共同朋友他所貼出來的就是這很可能不是一個個案現在政府內部很可能有一大堆的專案左手發給右手"},{"start":497.805,"end":524.523,"text":"右手挪用開源的軟體卻沒有清楚的標示跟這個左右手互相領錢左右手互相查核其實現在有一些工具可以來查核到底有沒有使用開源的程式碼其實速發部在這個部分可能有一些知識也可以來協助所以我們的具體訴求希望成立開源辦公室另外一個具體訴求我們也希望這個數位皮匣的專案可以大順利大成功那也希望能夠作為一個範本讓未來我們政府的這個專案public money"},{"start":528.846,"end":554.447,"text":"公眾的錢我們納稅人出來的錢就不應該是被特定的單位挪用開源城市碼改了兩三行之後變成自己的這個所謂的公眾出資公共的城市我想也應該是符合速發部在推動的方向尤其最後一句話也是重點歐盟也在推動之外也說可以提高資安韌性因為城市碼可以公開審查與改進我想這應該是符合我們台灣中華民國發展的方向"},{"start":554.887,"end":560.28,"text":"所以我想抒發部還有相關的同仁是不是近期我們可以一起來針對這個再做更多的討論好這沒問題我們討論好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":366,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（10時2分）謝謝召委，謝謝主席，我們有請數發部黃彥男部長。"],["主席：好，黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長好。資料、資料、資料，沒有資料我們可能就沒有文化，沒有主權，也不會有AI，我們現在又面臨了美國、中國他們也持續的在發展。我們現在談到媒體議價法的時候，其實我們也看到了數發部的報告裡面也很清楚地寫了，倘若我國未來實施類似媒體議價法，不排除美國採取關稅報復措施。其實剛剛的質詢你也有提到，我們也可以看到川普當時拿出這個小板板，上面有臺灣64%，底下有一行小字說非關稅壁壘包含在內，所以如果這個媒體議價法放進去，很顯然地對美國來說非關稅壁壘就是提高的。我想請教一下部長，關於這件事情還有媒體議價法可能造成的風險，有沒有跟我們關稅談判團隊同步過？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們會做這樣的判斷是根據美國對澳洲跟加拿大，事實上也有談判過，所以我們是根據這樣做判斷，然後次長有去談……"],["葛委員如鈞：關稅談判團隊知不知道？"],["林次長宜敬：知道。"],["黃部長彥男：有報告過了。"],["葛委員如鈞：有報告過了？這個訊息很重要，大家要同步一下。數發部在這個部分也做了很多功課，也非常感謝，也希望我們政府各部會都非常清楚。","另外，我們也看到中國大陸現在發展AI，因為它的政治體制非常特殊，可以無所不用其極地取得各種資料，臺灣在發展AI的時候，因為我們的著作權法可以說是舉世嚴格，甚至還有刑法的罰責，導致我們臺灣大語言模型的團隊在訓練的時候資料不足。當然，我們知道資料是有價的，可是現在就卡在這裡，人家有很多資料，可以拼命訓練，越多資料的AI可能就越聰明，臺灣的資料已經不夠了，我們又要制定這樣子的一個媒體議價法！當然，我們還是認為資料有價，可是我們如果卡在這裡，不能進也不能退，會不會造成我們的AI沒有辦法往前進？所以我一直在院會的質詢當中，不斷請教各個部會，現在數發部也是這一塊的專業，你們贊不贊成由行政院當中的部會，甚至也許就是數發部，來建立國家層級的AI訓練資料庫，提供AI訓練所需要的資料，當然也提供誘因？因為其實媒體提供的新聞內容說不定也可以放進來做資料庫的一部分啊！請問這個部分你們有沒有可能來支持一下？"],["黃部長彥男：這個方向是沒有錯啦，因為AI的發展一定需要資料，而臺灣的主權AI也必須要有自己的資料，所以我們數發部的資料創新司對這個議題有研訂一些條款和方法，我是不是請司長來做個說明？"],["莊司長明芬：報告委員，有關AI語料庫的訓練，我們的做法是這樣子：過去其實政府已經有五萬多筆的開放資料，只要是標準授權的資料，都可以讓各界來做運用，包括語料的訓練。當然，大家可能會覺得我們現在訓練的資料必須是語意連貫的自然語彙的方式，所以大量文本的資料可能就涉及著作權保護的議題，我們國家的著作權目前並沒有對AI訓練語料做額外的條例的修改，但是在此之前我們也不會坐著等，我們現在訂定了一個臺灣主權AI訓練語料庫的授權條款，針對這個授權條款，我們會在跟智財局一起研議之後，如果妥適性可以的話，就會對外公布。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，預計什麼時候會有結果？時間表呢？"],["莊司長明芬：我們5月初就會找智財局及學者專家先來研議，如果合理的話，我們就可以把這樣的授權條款釋出。"],["葛委員如鈞：希望加速啦！因為這個資料庫也需要誘因，部長，其實您也很瞭解區塊鏈的技術，有關如何保存、如何加（解）密、如何分潤的機制，像資料點值、資料經濟的做法，我們希望能有一個國家級的訓練資料庫。這個部分可不可以請部長來研議一下？"],["黃部長彥男：好，我們來研議，再跟委員報告。"],["葛委員如鈞：數發部自己做為軟體還有數位產業的主管部會，近期衛福部有委託工研院進行一個平臺的計畫，預算非常高，去年大概是4億，今年可能還會追加二點多億，但是發生了挪用美國的開源軟體來做修改卻沒有清楚標示的狀況，所以我們還是想請教一下數發部，你們有沒有掌握部會在採購案上對於開源條文落實的情況？數發部有沒有針對這個部分做一個全面的盤點和瞭解？否則我們的政府部會把很高的預算左手發給右手，結果是用開源的軟體，比例根本就不清楚，也不知道怎麼查核！這一塊有沒有在進行？"],["黃部長彥男：委員講得沒錯，使用開源軟體是一個趨勢，至於怎麼去做規範，我是不是請署長來說明？"],["林署長俊秀：跟委員報告，我們有一個政府軟體採購的共同供應契約，我們會講SBOM……"],["葛委員如鈞：有沒有推到各個部會？"],["林署長俊秀：那個是我們幫各部會去訂約。"],["葛委員如鈞：他們有沒有一定要用？有沒有看一下他們用的情況？"],["林署長俊秀：很多都有用。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，這個部分要持續瞭解，不然為什麼今天衛福部會出現這個狀況？開源授權的教育和合規的支援，我們也希望數發部可以來協助，個人是認為政府應該要有一個開源辦公室，數發部有沒有機會考慮以開源制度化的示範部門來成立一個開源辦公室，還是已經有了？"],["黃部長彥男：我們的國際司過去在開源方面做了很多計畫和努力，我請司長做個說明。"],["莊司長盈志：先跟委員報告一下，感謝委員的支持。有關開源由數位發展部來做領頭示範的部分，跟委員報告，的確我們目前在推動的「數位憑證皮夾」整體就是走開源模式，我們是希望透過這個方式來引導各部會在開源方面具有非常多效益。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝，這個數位皮夾的專案我非常支持，而且我也有安裝，你們一直說有開放程式碼，可是開放程式碼和開源給其他人使用你們這次應該是兩個都有，公開程式碼跟開源都有，做為一個示範我覺得很重要。其實我也非常支持數發部在推動的公共程式平臺，但是其他部會在做公共程式的時候好像沒有串連得很好，因為像衛福部委託工研院的這個專案就有用到開源的軟體，可是在上面卻沒有辦法查出來，我希望數發部能設置一個公共程式的平臺，和其他部會做更積極的協調，有運用到開源碼的專案，就應該在這裡可以查詢得到，這個機制能不能再深化一下？"],["莊司長盈志：跟委員報告，整個開源的政策我們去年在全臺各地都有召開相關的說明會，我們也積極鼓勵各部會能夠參與整個開源的推動。這個部分我們數位發展部也正在擬訂相關的行政指引來協助各部會推動。以上說明。"],["葛委員如鈞：希望數發部一起來爭取一下，從行政院的層級也好，或是數發部也好，我們來成立一個開源辦公室。各位可以看一下人工智慧學校基金會秘書長的貼文，他也是很多人共同的朋友。也就是說，這很可能不是一個個案，現在政府內部很可能有一大堆專案是左手發給右手，右手挪用開源的軟體卻沒有清楚的標示，左右手互相領錢、左右手互相查核。其實現在有一些工具可以查核到底有沒有使用開源的程式碼，數發部在這個部分可能有一些知識，也可以提供協助，所以我們的具體訴求是希望成立開源辦公室。另外一個具體訴求是我們也期望數位皮夾的專案可以大順利、大成功！也希望能夠做為一個範本，讓未來政府的專案Public 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人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案；\n六、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00002"}}},{"id":"160920","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160920","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc067f6a072ed2bae022bf9a8039e28b7ca6503c30100658372f537da7f4e493df25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"13:37:13 - 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我覺得侵害個人權利啦所以個人應該對於我自己資料使用 取得 甚至有他人刺探我的資料這件事情我個人應該要有權利 要知道部分的一個狀況好不好好 那就請部長再研究 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1167,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（13時37分）謝謝主席，我們有請數發部部長。"],["主席：數發部黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，最近基隆爆發一個濫用個資，而且是由政府機關濫用個資，市政府民政處處長竟然可以自己調用個人的戶政資料來協助罷免。當然這個涉及到了很多層次的問題，內政部的戶政資料怎麼會被這樣調用，但是我還有想到一個問題，就是我們個人的資訊如果被查詢，那我們個人有辦法知道這一件事情嗎？就是政府的資訊公開有可能在數發部的整理之下，哪些訊息可以適度的讓個人知道？這件事情我想請教部長，你覺得技術上來研發讓個人可以知道自己的資訊被公開？比方說我被戶政系統查詢了，一個月後至少給我知道我被查詢了幾次，誰查詢我還是其次，我被查詢了幾次這件事情有辦法公開嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：這個系統在查詢應該都有所謂的log，現在只是說這個log要不要……我想是這樣，關於這個東西的管理現在有個資會，然後就有要……"],["蔡委員易餘：個資會是在行政院層級的個人資料委員會。"],["黃部長彥男：對！他們……"],["蔡委員易餘：但是這個個資會都在管理的層次，我現在是講說，在個人方面，我想要知道我的個人資料被查詢了、被查詢了幾次，這件事情我覺得數發部可以去思考，因為我知道數發部最近做了滿多，比方說111簡訊，可以讓人民清楚知道這個是政府簡訊、是官方的簡訊，並不是來自於其他莫名其妙的簡訊，數發部有做這樣的事情。而我從這一次基隆的事件中，事實上很多人告訴我，關於我的戶政資料或者是我的健保資料被他人查詢了，查詢我的目的有很多，有可能基於犯罪、有可能基於國安，但是像這樣的違法查詢……"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們數發部可以協助個資會訂定一個統一的機制，剛剛講說技術上都可行。"],["蔡委員易餘：技術上？"],["黃部長彥男：對，我們需要一個機制去做這方面的分析跟調查，然後能夠做通報，這個我們會跟個資會一起討論，看怎麼樣去進行這樣的一件事情。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。我就是說至少個人資料我可以了解一下，最近好像有人很頻於去查詢我，甚至健保資料之外，還有一個就是我們的信用徵信資料。現在的信用徵信，我想跟部長說，事實上也是不方便的，現在要查詢自己的聯合徵信資料，我們得寄信到聯合徵信中心，然後可能要等超過一個禮拜的時間，它才會將你的徵信狀況寄給你。事實上以現在整個數位科技發展的狀況，是不是這部分也應該要督促，像聯合徵信中心應該要可以用線上查詢，然後線上就可以馬上得到我自己個人的徵信資料，我知道自己的徵信資料，無論要去銀行辦貸款還是處理什麼事，當然相對會比較方便，我覺得這部分數發部是不是可以做個研擬？"],["黃部長彥男：我們會跟個資委員會來討論這個事情，要定一個統一的機制，讓很多個人資料能夠個人管理，然後能夠被通報這樣。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。我覺得就基隆這個事件來說是侵害個人權利，所以個人應該對於自己資料之使用、取得，甚至有他人刺探我的資料這件事情，我個人應該要有權利知道部分的狀況，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好，我們會跟個資委員會來努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，那就請部長再研究。謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員。","翁曉玲，翁曉玲，翁曉玲委員不在。","鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","王鴻薇，王鴻薇，王鴻薇委員不在。","蘇清泉，蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢。","委員張雅琳、萬美玲、柯志恩、黃健豪、劉書彬、翁曉玲、林國成所提書面質詢，列入紀錄並刊登公報。委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請數位部及相關機關儘速以書面答詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案；\n六、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00002"}}},{"id":"160919","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160919","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc0e9316dfd4a1498a42bf9a8039e28b7ca6503c30100658372d77338c61540601a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"13:30:46 - 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數位部黃部長"},{"start":8.39,"end":33.919,"text":"林次長如果有需要補充也可以一起上台沒問題林次長部長好我想本席是在上一屆2020年擔任立委之後就提出了有關於媒體一家法我想當時的緣由您在報告上面也寫得非常清楚就是2021年澳洲再加上2023年開始就是有關於大型的平台在使用新聞上面的這個所謂使用者付費的部分但是我們知道時間來到2025年"},{"start":35.6,"end":51.659,"text":"很多的狀況都已經跟我們現實當時所提出來的法案已經完全不一樣包括現在AI成為這個網路世界尤其是AI生成當中我相信它已經所延伸的問題恐怕更甚於媒體衣架法那麼"},{"start":52.72,"end":60.15,"text":"我想要請問的就是其實隨著時間的演進包括今天主席我相信他們也都是非常關注今天的題目那麼到底我們跟實際的媒體業者進行了哪些溝通因為就像報告所提出來的"},{"start":67.899,"end":93.184,"text":"就是現在不論是澳洲或者是其他國家因為在使用媒體溢價法之後也被這個所謂大型的平台不論是Meta或者是Google進行了所謂的報復也就是說他們乾脆直接就是下價或者是不導流那我相信媒體跟溢所謂平台之間是一種共生共好的關係那是最好的"},{"start":93.664,"end":118.721,"text":"那麼在台灣的話台灣的媒體目前對於類似媒體議價法或者是真的有一個所謂的平台來協助議價他們最新的想法跟看法又是什麼呢當然我相信現場也有文化部也有所謂的這個國科會等等但是現在主責是數位部的話我就來請問一下到底在近期內跟媒體之間的溝通有多少"},{"start":123.744,"end":147.031,"text":"那麼媒體他們認為現在需要的真的還是溢價法嗎還是更先進的就是剛剛有我們本院的委員所提到的著作連結權相關的法案又或者是說他必須併到另外更廣更大的AI相關的基本法等等因為我要因為我時間有限所以我最後再請"},{"start":148.291,"end":168.74,"text":"科技部來回應就是目前其實最有可數位部來回應就是其實目前對媒體來說他們所面對的一個實質的狀況就是當我們使用AI你把幾篇新聞輸入進去之後只要30秒他生成另外一篇根本"},{"start":169.64,"end":187.689,"text":"完全不一樣的文章平台根本完全已經不需要去透過連結link的方式去使用這些媒體言下之意我們當然原本利益良善的是希望創建一個平台協助業者跟"},{"start":188.769,"end":210.265,"text":"社群平台來做溝通但現在產生第三者也就是ChatGP之類的AI的時候那這變成是一個三方的問題請問數位部有考量到嗎那麼有更先進的法規或法律在做研擬嗎否則等到又一樣過了五年之後我們的立法又落後了"},{"start":211.764,"end":225.811,"text":"那個委員分析的很好確實確實新的技術的出現改變我們當初對媒體溢價法的看法那我從上任之後有公協會來找我也有學者各方面來找我就對這個議題表示不同看法"},{"start":226.431,"end":243.776,"text":"那當然就是說在討論過程中當然大部分人當初還是主張認為還是用媒體強迫溢價法那我們也朝著後面去做很多的研究那也去觀察國際的發展的趨勢才會有今天的這樣的一個態度就是說我們發現媒體強迫溢價法在有些國家實施之後"},{"start":244.796,"end":260.831,"text":"並沒有達到當初想要實行的效果那當然這個著作臨接權是一種因為因為應付AI的產生是一個方法但是那牽涉到更複雜的這個所謂修法跟那個所以我們當然是希望能夠整合像剛剛講著作臨接權就著作權法的"},{"start":261.631,"end":279.091,"text":"的那個修法然後再加上也許一些基金共融但這個還需要再討論但是這個還需要跟大院還有跟一般的所謂的民眾來這個這個業者來溝通當然也要跟這個平台業者來溝通希望找出一個大家能夠同意然後能夠共融的一個方案讓這個事情能夠所謂新聞有價的事情能夠落實"},{"start":282.635,"end":307.697,"text":"這個是我們現在的一個在在在評估但我們但是希望盡快啦所以但因為現在是稍微受到這個剛講這個關稅的影響我們覺得這個時間點去提出任何東西可能會影響到關稅的談判但是只要這個結束以後我們會再看再跟再看用什麼樣方式來提出最有效對我們新聞媒體最有效方法來解決我們現在所謂新聞有價的這個問題"},{"start":308.769,"end":331.318,"text":"好 所以本席要提醒的就是我們立的法絕對要走在前面如果說現在媒體一家法我實話實說我自己媒體出來的它現在已經落後了所以在這樣的概念裡面要把新的狀況也要放進去這樣才不要說立一個法擺在那裡大家浪費了時間但是其實它可能法規根本用不到"},{"start":331.818,"end":351.866,"text":"那這個才是沒有辦法解決問題而不符合現在實際所應應的狀況但是本席還是同意就是必須要在一定的時間之內而且必須要回應媒體的需求然後也要能夠結合現在我們整體的不論是網路又或者是整個時代的潮流好 謝謝委員建議 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因為剛剛很多都問部長那我想問一下代理主委那像現在這樣子行政院的這個公共發展小組306次會那這個進度如何能夠有願版能夠產生"},{"start":60.147,"end":87.845,"text":"公文報告在行政院有列定說各個部會的分工NCC當時被分配到的任務是做產業調查我們產業調查結果在111年有完成後來數位部召集了三輪八場會議我們也有請衛星工會跟電視學會去參與跟他們共同對話這一部分都有持續在關注"},{"start":88.464,"end":99.681,"text":"那所以說目前來講NCC也是對於就是這個媒體議價法也是樂觀其成嗎是 我們是樂觀其成好 那請教部長那行政院版預計什麼時候能夠提出"},{"start":100.714,"end":129.911,"text":"就是報委員我們現在就是說現在有三種方法那我們現在就是因為三華都不是很完整不是在現在情況都有他的問題所以我們還在評估但是我們當然希望盡快那我們先等這一次這個有關於這個我們這個關稅的問題過了以後我們再跟再看國際的發展再跟各個單位來討論當然也希望能夠有一個共識之後我們提出行政院版本"},{"start":130.211,"end":156.475,"text":"但希望是盡快 但盡快可能就是就是今年下半期因為本席還是認為這麼重要的一個法案其實我相信不管是數位平台的使用業者包括媒體業者還甚至百姓或是千萬到千萬到著作權的許多層面的人那非常的期待這個能夠早日來看到行政院版那國民黨的版本也有提出那像今天也有提出的許多的版本"},{"start":157.035,"end":179.063,"text":"那我就不論到底部長您支持哪個版本但是我覺得比較急迫的是應該是大家期待看到院的版本那如果說以像目前來講我們可以看到在澳洲的這個部分啊我們來講一下澳洲的例子他那時候其實政府的態度是非常堅定的因為包括在Google for Meta他一度揚言退出嘛"},{"start":179.543,"end":198.308,"text":"但是那時候澳洲他其實還是踩緊立場那所以到時候這個法案不僅是有通過而且順利實施那因為回頭來講其實政府的老闆還是國民那如果說傷害到大家權利的話其實政府一定要硬起來所以我相信國民也是會支持"},{"start":198.948,"end":220.038,"text":"那所以說今天來講在看到澳洲的例子那他們不管是在這個已經實施上路那我在想今天來講我們在速發部這邊那不管是他有提到如果說以澳洲的話是比較市場力模式或是歐盟的話是諸多權模式的話那其實討論到現在已經非常久了"},{"start":220.498,"end":245.151,"text":"那如果說是因為關稅的部分來講也差不多就是六七月談判都會有一個結果但是我相信研擬的過程其實都應該遭有雛形那所以說是不是其實已經有草案的版本跟委員報告其實這個事情的轉折並不是因為最近的這個關關稅的談判的問題而是在去年的五月那去年五月因為"},{"start":246.912,"end":268.525,"text":"加拿大在通過那個Online News Act那個媒體溢價法之後那個Meta決定說退出這個市場他把那個在加拿大臉書上面所有關於新聞的連結通通移除了那他既然已經移除了所以那個媒體溢價法就不適用於他結果呢那個加拿大的媒體本來就已經收不到錢了結果因為他現在在"},{"start":269.025,"end":292.407,"text":"在加拿大的臉書上面完全不能轉貼任何的新聞所以加拿大的新聞媒體又失去了他們的流量所以變成說他們的狀況非常不好所以才會說那個經濟學人雜誌在去年的五月出了那個兩篇文章就講這個事情說加拿大政府推行媒體溢價法原本是要幫那個媒體結果反倒是傷害到了加拿大的媒體"},{"start":293.708,"end":315.709,"text":"這件事情事實上是整件事情的一個轉折在那之前的確我們在台灣我們的媒體我們很多公聽會我們好像都有一個那個共識我們要朝著那個媒體衣架法的方向去推行了可是因為發生這個事情所以我們現在會覺得說會擔心說這個媒體衣架法到底是不是有效那我們這個我覺得說我們還必須要商榷以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":317.751,"end":341.181,"text":"本期還是在這邊還是再次說明當然說今天你舉的這個例子啊會讓大家是我就是會感到擔心要不要往前進行啊但是事實上的話以澳洲那時候其實他們也曾經面對這樣的風險那但是他們還是採警立場因為是站在人民的角度跟媒體的角度所以本期還是認為說今天推動的情況如何草案其實還是要有而且草案其實要提出來"},{"start":341.821,"end":366.482,"text":"那我相信這個是不斷的跟他們去做一個談判或協商的過程但是至少來講我覺得該有一個版本讓社會大眾都能夠清楚而且能夠來進行討論我相信這會是在不管是訴發部或是行政院會是最務實的讓民眾看得到的做法我們持續會跟委員溝通然後跟社會大眾做溝通然後找出一個最有效的方法來推動這樣的一個事情好 OK 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1133,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（13時24分）謝謝召委，有請部長還有NCC代理主委。"],["主席：好，黃部長、陳主委。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["游委員顥：部長、主委好。有關於媒體議價法的部分，其實剛才大家討論的非常多，本席想要接著請教一下，行政院在110年成立的大型數位平臺及新聞媒體共榮發展小組，3年僅開6次會，跨部會協調，但是到最後整體的進度幾乎都是停擺，3年6次會其實幾乎是從上一屆跨到這一屆。目前來講，媒體其實也非常重視議價法的進度，因為剛剛很多委員都是問部長，我想問一下代理主委，行政院的這個共榮發展小組3年開6次會，這樣的進度如何能夠有院版產生？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，因為行政院有律定各個部會的分工，NCC當時被分配到的任務是做產業調查，我們產業調查的結果在111年完成，後來數位部召集的3輪8場會議，我們也有就我們的部分，請衛星公會跟電視學會去參與，也跟他們共同對話，這部分都有持續在關注。"],["游委員顥：所以目前來講，NCC對於媒體議價法也是樂觀其成嘛。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，我們是樂觀其成。"],["游委員顥：好。請教部長，行政院版預計什麼時候能夠提出？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，現在有三種方法，因為三法都不是很完整，在現在的情況，都有它的問題，所以我們還在評估，但我們當然希望儘快，我們先等這一次有關於關稅的問題過了以後，再看國際的發展，再跟各個單位來討論，當然也希望能夠在有共識之後提出行政院版本，希望是儘快，但儘快可能就是今年下半年。"],["游委員顥：因為本席還是認為這麼重要的一個法案，我相信不管是數位平臺的使用業者，包括媒體業者，甚至百姓，或是牽扯到相關著作權的許多層面的人，非常期待能夠早日看到行政院版。國民黨的版本也有提出，像今天有提出許多版本，我就不論到底部長您支持哪個版本，但我覺得比較急迫的應該是大家期待看到院的版本。","以目前來講，我們看到澳洲的部分，我們來講一下澳洲的例子，其實那時候政府的態度是非常堅定的，Google或Meta一度揚言要退出，但是澳洲還是採行立場，所以這個法案不僅通過，而且順利實施。回頭來講，其實政府的老闆還是國民，如果傷害到大家的權利，政府一定要硬起來，我相信國民也是會支持。","所以今天我們看到澳洲的例子，他們已經實施上路，我在想我們數發部這邊，澳洲的話是市場力模式，歐盟的話是著作權模式，其實我們討論到現在已經非常久了，如果是因為關稅，差不多6、7月就會有談判結果，但是我相信研擬的過程其實都應該早有雛形，所以你們是不是已經有草案版本了？"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，其實這個事情的轉折並不是因為最近的關稅談判的問題，而是在去年的5月，因為加拿大在通過Online News 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這個是當初宣傳的內容那我們來檢視一下因為我也去測試了一下你們這個"},{"start":75.14,"end":77.708,"text":"查詢網那我覺得我發現有些問題下一頁嘛"},{"start":80.93,"end":106.167,"text":"下一頁這個第一個譬如說像這個有人通報他叫酷炫老頭久轉功成非富即貴有人去通報那目前沒有辦法給正確答案只告知說是疑似詐騙訊息那我的助理實際上他就去測試了一下就是加入了這個LINE那就可以看得出來他這個他的頁面嘛你進去之後"},{"start":107.492,"end":135.078,"text":"裡面的人管理員就會通知加入的人要加入另外一個LINE的群組那加入到另外一個LINE的群組呢那你就知道啦可能就是會進行一些投資的行為嘛就是很傳統的詐騙方式那我不知道說為什麼像這一種很明顯的詐騙的模式在網友通報之後到目前為止顯示的都是疑似沒有辦法給一個很確定的答案是為什麼"},{"start":135.838,"end":162.488,"text":"跟委員報告我們對於網路的詐騙我們是深惡痛絕我想這是我們全台灣所有人的共識但是台灣也是一個自由民主法治的國家那如果我們要通知一個社群媒體平台把一個訊息移除的話我們一定要有法源的依據那就如同剛才那個委員所顯示的畫面上當然一樣的資訊或者是說你加入他的群組然後他要求你加入另外一個群組我們並不能判斷他是詐騙"},{"start":163.488,"end":191.237,"text":"那這件事情怎麼樣才能夠判斷這個要法源依據不是 那你這個網址就你設定了一個平台然後大家來使用然後你說說因為要很多困難沒辦法判斷那怎麼樣才能判斷我們這個機制就是說我們收到這個通報以後像這樣的那個案件我們會不會交給內政部警政署所以接下來你們交給警政署去查是不是對 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可以隨便在網路上跟人家爆牌嗎"},{"start":311.161,"end":326.377,"text":"那個我們是在查詐騙這個違法我知道我知道我知道但是但是這個行為基本上是違法的嘛所以我現在就是跟部長請教你們假設有人通報了一個最後判斷說你判斷不是詐騙但是他有違法行為你們會把這個東西轉給相關機構去查嗎"},{"start":329.821,"end":346.808,"text":"就是遇到這個我們就會傳給那個就是金管會所以金管會如果金管會會去做後續的追蹤金管會會去後續那請教一下那金管會最後查的結果會不會再回報給你們然後你們會顯示在這個網頁上面還是說他就是一直說本訊息缺乏足夠資訊辨識詐騙"},{"start":349.209,"end":375.247,"text":"報告委員其實這部分來講這就是為什麼我們要必須後台交給相關部會第一個我們通知那個部會說有這個東西那他知道因為可能因為我們只處理詐騙的事情但是可能這個東西會涉及到其他相關的法規他知道之後他會依照他的權責去處理另外一個就是說我們在這裡面如果說不是詐騙我們也會秀出說這可能是高度風險有多了這樣子的level來去警示我現在的建議是這樣子啦"},{"start":376.689,"end":391.228,"text":"雖然說你們單位是打詐這個網站是打詐但實際上人家來舉報假設有不罰行為我覺得也是要告訴民眾啦所以你現在發文給金管會金管事務如果確定說這是違法行為那最後回你們你們應該在右上角顯示一下"},{"start":391.994,"end":408.43,"text":"無法比如說你說缺乏足夠資訊便是詐騙與否但是明顯違反政交法請小心所以應該是這樣子嘛你今天花了幾千萬接近六千萬做了一個平台然後一副就是好像不要不趕的感覺委員的那個建議非常好我們往這個方向努力"},{"start":409.031,"end":425.567,"text":"但是也必須跟委員報告等一下你等一下一起報告啦好再來這個一樣日本澳田製藥株式會社這個療效真的超厲害的三天消除耳鳴十天就可以恢復聽力然後立刻就可以扔掉助聽器正常溝通"},{"start":426.608,"end":445.495,"text":"這一看你不覺得很有問題嗎所以我們給衛福部去對然後但是因為你們秀出來的等一下你們秀出來的還是一樣本訊息缺乏足夠資訊辨識詐騙與否還是一樣那你們現在通知衛福部確認當中嘛然後最後你結案了結案就是本訊息經衛福部檢視人缺乏足夠資訊辨識詐騙與否"},{"start":447.476,"end":473.707,"text":"那人家看到之後這不是詐騙就去買啦但其實這個問題很大為什麼因為你真的相信他那麼厲害三十天以後耳鳴現象完全消失然後我去查了相關因為這個案子這個藥品它是在福建我們也去看了它的網站的位置是在福建那因為你現在你未服務並沒有做一個什麼廣告不實或違反醫藥法的裁定對不對可是我們看了之前的相關的別的藥的"},{"start":474.887,"end":501.167,"text":"別的要的這個一樣類似的東西他這邊就寫說涉嫌違規宣稱詞句七天消除耳鳴三十天恢復聽就跟剛剛那個一模一樣可以拔掉註定句這個東西已經被衛福部認為是違反食安法的第28條的規定涉嫌廣告違規所以同樣的樣態之前被罰過可是現在民眾在檢舉這件事情的時候你說本訊息缺乏訊我們缺乏資訊便是詐騙與否"},{"start":502.83,"end":521.864,"text":"那你不就是等於變相在幫這個東西背書嗎所以你應該叫衛福部查完之後假設他有違反了廣告樣態或是1號法的話你要秀出來啦你不是變相在幫這個違規的東西在背書啦等一下一起喔 後面還有"},{"start":523.171,"end":543.325,"text":"很多啦像這個是有人在檢舉台積電慈善基金會的檢舉完之後已經確定是確定是詐騙人但是網站依然存在後面一樣的喔 這個呃是晴雨航空說被詐騙然後就通知本人右邊是黃仁勳被詐騙通知本人就沒有沒有結論啊"},{"start":544.926,"end":560.166,"text":"如果他回應的話我們馬上會顯示那當然是因為黃仁勳他本身他非常忙所以他不見得他的幕僚會馬上回覆所以比較delay 抱歉剛剛的建議因為你們現在還在測試中可是你花了很多錢六千萬"},{"start":561.107,"end":581.445,"text":"你要做不好意思我還沒有問題啊你要做大家的窗口嘛人家覺得有疑問的就來問然後你就本位主義這個疑似詐騙會不能確定然後就沒了問完之後最後要給個答案他到底違反什麼法違反要釋法違反什麼告訴人家不要幫這些疑似詐騙背書然後最後我一個建議啦"},{"start":583.618,"end":599.655,"text":"之前我有在別的地方問過你們蘇巴布因為網路上有很多類似毒品的社團比如說這個伊托彌子這個就最近查到的那你們既然可以做一個平台讓人家去辨識說是不是詐騙那為什麼不能做一個平台讓人家檢舉這些毒品呢"},{"start":600.879,"end":625,"text":"為什麼不行呢 毒品這個事情是大家深惡痛絕 尤其是依托民脂現在造成社會很多問題 很多人都是 這個叫殭屍煙彈嘛很多吸了這個毒之後毒架 很多員警因此這樣傷命那麼嚴重的事情 蘇阿部為什麼不能類似打詐做一個平台以後只要有看到毒品 大家就可以來檢舉嘛幫大家減少那個毒品的問題嘛我們委員今天很好 但是另外 其實委員支持我們的預算"},{"start":625.58,"end":651.052,"text":"沒問題啊但是你要做事啊剛剛你花六千萬做這個網站做的問題那麼多然後一天到晚跟人家要錢要了錢之後然後執行率那麼差你要把你的本分做好嘛我們當然都是支持嘛對不對 剛剛我在問問題的時候其實我們是舉很多問題給你們讓你們來討論然後就會一直辯解一些不相關的東西我們願意支持預算但是請你們把這東西做好好不好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1085,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時13分）主席好，麻煩請數發部的部長。"],["主席：好，請數位部黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。我想跟你談一下打詐，應該是上個禮拜，還是上上禮拜有宣告網詐通報查詢網重新上線，現在要求大家可以一起來測試，如果測試完之後沒有什麼問題，你們就要正式上線了，這個東西其實拖了滿久的，當然我們是希望這個東西可以成功，你們的操作就是如果有網友在網路上看到一個疑似詐騙的訊息，就可以把網址貼到這個app裡面，可以看到這個東西是不是詐騙，你們也會通報相關機關去做查詢，確定它是詐騙或不是詐騙；如果是公眾人物的話，也可以通報給這個app，如果發現被詐騙的話，你們會同步通知本人，也會通知像FB、LINE、Google、IG等社群平臺，同步要求他們下架，沒錯吧？這是當初宣傳的內容。我們來檢視一下，因為我也去測試了你們的查詢網，我就發現有些問題。第一個，像這個有人通報，他叫「．．酷炫老頭．．玖轉功臣非富即貴」，目前沒有辦法給正確答案，只告知是疑似詐騙訊息；我的助理實際上就去測試了一下，加入了這個LINE，結果可以看得出來這是他的頁面，你進去之後，管理員就會通知加入的人要加入另外一個LINE的群組，當加入到另外一個LINE的群組，你就知道了，可能就是會進行一些投資的行為，這是很傳統的詐騙方式。我不知道為什麼像這一種很明顯的詐騙模式，在網友通報之後，到目前為止，顯示的都是疑似，沒有辦法給一個很確定的答案，這是為什麼？"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，對於網路的詐騙，我們是深惡痛絕，我想這是全臺灣所有人的共識，但是臺灣也是一個自由、民主、法治的國家，如果我們要通知一個社群媒體平臺把一個訊息移除的話，一定要有法源依據，就如同剛才委員所顯示的，畫面上出現那樣的資訊，或者是你加入他的群組以後，他要求你加入另外一個群組，我們並不能判斷他是詐騙，這件事情……"],["葉委員元之：那怎麼樣才能夠判斷？"],["林次長宜敬：這個要有法源依據，我們事實上判斷……"],["葉委員元之：你設定了一個平臺，大家來使用，你就說因為有很多困難、沒辦法判斷，那怎麼樣才能判斷？"],["林次長宜敬：這個機制就是當我們收到通報以後，像這樣子的案件，我們會交給內政部警政署去判斷，他們那邊……"],["葉委員元之：所以接下來交給警政署去查，是不是？"],["林次長宜敬：對！他們要做判斷、要有法源依據啊！"],["葉委員元之：現在是他們正在查詢當中，還是怎麼樣？因為你們的進度，4月29號11點鐘是顯示已通知數發部確認中，那數發部就是會通知警政署，所以警察正在辦這個案子，是不是？要等到警政署確認這個是詐騙，才回報到這個平臺，然後做出正確答案，還在流程當中嗎？"],["林組長青嶔：對，這個東西後續到相關部會，相關部會會針對相關的內容去做一些查核，因為有些時候這到底是詐騙，還是人家在分析股友社……"],["葉委員元之：好，我知道。通常時間需要多久？譬如說，就以酷炫老頭的案例來講，通常需要多久？從4月29號查到這個個案，到你們通報警政署，警政署查完回報你們，然後有一個明確答案，通常需要多久？"],["林組長青嶔：我們原則大概在一天以內要儘量處理這些事情。"],["葉委員元之：一天？可是從4月29號，今天是5月1號，已經超過一天了？"],["林組長青嶔：沒有，因為有些東西還是要去做一些確認，基本上，因為有些東西要判斷……"],["葉委員元之：對啦！我剛剛問你說通常需要幾天，你說一天嘛！所以我才告訴你現在已經兩天啦！"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，我們會依照案件通報的危險性、風險性去做排序，我們處理那個高風險的，因為……"],["葉委員元之：好，沒關係，因為我後面還有其他個案，這個案子麻煩你確認之後，回報我辦公室一下，就這個案子，好不好？"],["林次長宜敬：既然是委員問的話，我們就把它提高為高風險……"],["葉委員元之：我想瞭解到底你們需要幾天，還有它的流程到底是什麼，這是第一個個案。第二個個案，也有人通報一個叫作「今─日報─牌─Taichung」，最後的結論是本訊息缺乏足夠資訊辨識詐騙與否。當然，因為按照數發部的判斷，詐騙應該是指他報牌給你，最後把你錢騙光了，這個叫詐騙嘛！也許你還在查詢當中，你沒辦法確認他是不是詐騙，可是這個很明顯就是違反其他的法律，譬如說他可能就違反證交法，通常你不能隨便在網路上跟人家報牌，對吧？可以嗎？可以隨便在網路上跟人家報牌嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們是在查詐騙，這個違反……"],["葉委員元之：我知道、我知道，但這個行為基本上是違法的嘛！所以我現在跟部長請教，假設有人通報，最後你判斷不是詐騙，但是他有違法行為，你們會把這個東西轉給相關機構去查嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們就會傳給那個單位，這是金管會，所以金管會會去做後續的追查。"],["葉委員元之：那請教一下，金管會最後查的結果會不會再回報給你們，然後你們會顯示在這個網頁上面？還是它就是一直顯示本訊息缺乏足夠資訊辨識詐騙？"],["林組長青嶔：報告委員，其實這部分來講，這就是為什麼我們必須要由後臺交給相關部會，第一個，我們通知那個部會有這個東西，因為我們只處理詐騙的事情，但是可能這個東西會涉及到其他相關的法規，當他們知道之後，會依照它的權責去處理。另外一個，在這裡面如果不是詐騙，我們也會秀出這可能是高度風險，有多了這樣的level來進行警示。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。我現在的建議是這樣子啦！雖然你們單位是打詐、這個網是打詐，但實際上人家來舉報，假設有不法行為，我覺得也是要告訴民眾，所以你現在發文給金管會，金管會如果確定這是違法行為，最後回你們，你們應該在右上角顯示一下，比如說顯示：「缺乏足夠資訊辨識詐騙與否，但是明顯違反證交法，請小心。」應該是這樣子嘛！你今天花了幾千萬，接近6,000萬，做了一個平臺，然後一副好像無關緊要的感覺。"],["林次長宜敬：是，跟委員報告，委員的建議非常好，我們會往這個方向努力，但是也必須跟委員報告，因為我們不能每一個……"],["葉委員元之：等一下、等一下，你等一下一起報告。再來，這個一樣，日本奧田製藥株式會社，這個療效真的超厲害的，3天消除耳鳴，10天就可以恢復聽力，然後立刻就可以扔掉助聽器、正常溝通，這個一看，你不覺得就很有問題嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：所以我們給衛福部去……"],["葉委員元之：對，因為是你們秀出來的，你們秀出來的還是一樣，本訊息缺乏足夠資訊辨識詐騙與否，還是一樣，你們現在通知衛福部確認當中，最後你們結案了，結案就是本訊息經衛福部檢視，仍缺乏足夠資訊辨識詐騙與否。哇！人家看到之後想說這不是詐騙，就去買了，但其實這個問題很大，為什麼？你真的相信它那麼厲害嗎？30天以後耳鳴現象完全消失。我去查了相關的，因為這個案子，這個藥品是在福建，我們也去看了它的網站位址是在福建，因為現在衛福部並沒有做一個什麼廣告不實或違反醫藥法的裁定，可是我們看了之前別的藥一樣類似的東西，它這邊就寫說涉嫌違規宣稱詞句是7天消除耳鳴，30天恢復聽力，就跟剛剛那個一模一樣，可以拔掉助聽器。這個東西已經被衛福部認為是違反食安法第二十八條的規定，涉嫌廣告違規，所以同樣的樣態之前被罰過，可是現在民眾在檢舉這件事情的時候，你說我們缺乏資訊辨識詐騙與否，你不就等於是變相在幫這個東西背書嗎？所以你應該叫衛福部查完之後，假設它有違反廣告樣態或醫藥法的話，你要秀出來啦，你不是變相在幫這個違規的東西背書啦！"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，這是……"],["葉委員元之：等一下一起，後面還有，很多啦！像這是有人在檢舉台積電慈善基金會，檢舉完之後，已經確定是詐騙了，但是網站依然存在；後面一樣，這是星宇航空，說被詐騙，然後就通知本人；右邊是黃仁勳，說被詐騙，通知本人，就沒有結論。最後……"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，如果他回應的話，我們馬上會顯示，當然因為黃仁勳他本身非常忙，所以不見得他的幕僚會馬上回復，所以比較會delay，抱歉。"],["葉委員元之：剛剛的建議，因為你們現在這個還在測試中，可是你花了很多錢，6,000萬耶，你要做……"],["林次長宜敬：這個就是剛才我要跟委員報告的……"],["葉委員元之：不好意思，我還沒有問問題，你要做大家的窗口嘛，人家覺得有疑問的就來問，但你就本位主義，說這個疑似詐騙或不能確定，然後就沒了，問完之後，最後要給個答案，他到底違反什麼法，違反藥事法、違反什麼，告訴人家，不要幫這些疑似詐騙的背書。"],["林次長宜敬：是，這個我們會跟衛福部……"],["葉委員元之：最後我有一個建議，之前我有在別的地方問過你們數發部，因為網路上有很多類似毒品的社團，比如說依托咪酯，這個就是最近查到的，你們既然可以做一個平臺，讓人家去辨識是不是詐騙，為什麼不能做一個平臺，讓人家檢舉這些毒品？為什麼不行？毒品這個事情是大家深惡痛絕的，尤其是依托咪酯現在造成很多社會問題，這個叫喪屍煙彈，很多案例是吸了這個毒之後毒駕，很多員警因此這樣喪命，那麼嚴重的事情，數發部為什麼不能做一個類似打詐的平臺，以後只要有看到毒品，大家就可以來檢舉，幫大家減少毒品的問題？"],["林次長宜敬：委員的建議很好，我們會跟衛福部來研究。"],["黃部長彥男：對，委員的建議很好，但是另外請委員要支持我們的預算，因為這個……"],["葉委員元之：沒問題啊，但是你要做事啊！你花6,000萬做這個網站，問題那麼多，然後一天到晚跟人家要錢，要錢之後執行率還那麼差。"],["黃部長彥男：好，我們會……委員的建議……"],["葉委員元之：你要把你的本分做好嘛，我們當然都是支持，剛剛我在問問題的時候，其實我是舉很多問題給你們，讓你們來討論，但你們就一直辯解一些不相關的東西，我們願意支持預算，但是請你們把這些東西做好，好不好？謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。","現在請游顥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案；\n六、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00002"}}},{"id":"160916","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160916","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc0d68b19b99ddb48412bf9a8039e28b7ca6503c30100658372205bad23fd2dbfb75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"13:06:26 - 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那時候請次長來一些報告這個是去年5月16號就是經濟學人雜誌他說的這個他說的這個狀況是在於說在加拿大通過Online News Act以後就是媒體強制溢價法以後呢結果META他選擇把那個 就是不玩了他把這個加拿大臉書上面所有的新聞連結都封鎖掉"},{"start":84.722,"end":105.932,"text":"所以這是我在加拿大我拜訪那個加拿大政府的時候他們給我看的那個一個截圖就是在加拿大我如果在臉書上我嘗試去看CNN或者是任何加拿大媒體的新聞我就是通通被封鎖掉了那因為它都已經封鎖掉了所以就是沒有辦法去議價從商業行為上來講的話Facebook它已經不提供任何的新聞連結"},{"start":106.852,"end":127.739,"text":"所以那個對於加拿大的那個各個那個新聞媒體來講其實狀況更糟因為他們連流量都沒有原來他們只是收不到錢他就連流量都沒有以後他的狀況就更糟糕了以上報告好那我看到我們2023年文化部有委託雜誌公會做一個數位平台對於出版業新聞媒體的影響一個調查報告"},{"start":129.079,"end":146.964,"text":"因為其實我們非常關注的也是台灣媒體出版業我們在這是全球性的一個衝擊之下我們要如何生存而且我們要繼續發展這個其中其實受到平台衝擊最大的是在廣告部分報紙的廣告減少八成雜誌減少六成其他像消費營收通通都有六成至三成這樣的減少的衝擊"},{"start":149.025,"end":152.486,"text":"所以我知道因為這個法案你們已經持續的來找我們媒體的業者以及平台業者已經進行好幾次我們跨部會的會議討論那我要特別提醒的是因為這個平台對於媒體業的衝擊對於大型的媒體跟中小型的媒體"},{"start":165.071,"end":166.593,"text":"其實他這個因為多元的這個樣態他所造成的影響以及他的溢價能力談判的籌碼都是很不一樣的所以我希望你們這個討論要持續並且我們必須要多元的這個樣本"},{"start":180.749,"end":194.407,"text":"要去了解說實務上他們現在最受到衝擊例如說小型的媒體他可能需要的比較不是廣告收入也許他是曝光流量等等那大型的媒體他需要廣告收入他才能夠有更長期的這樣的發展也從而可以讓台灣的出版"},{"start":197.35,"end":210.66,"text":"新聞製造業有更多的從業委員可以提供我們新聞不但的傳出所以我希望喔這個剛剛前面說來的這個羅廷文委員他是希望你們說走一步算一步但是因為我的意見不同尊重個別委員發言我認為不行啊我們公務部門必須要謹慎周全我認為我們要謹慎周全討論完備之後才能跨出這一步否則像我們去年看到在立法院針對這個預算凍結刪除就是走一步算一步這樣子的心態結果呢"},{"start":225.41,"end":245.256,"text":"後來才發現有一些預算是不該刪除不該凍結的才來想要處理解凍所以我還是希望速發部務必跟其他跨部會謹慎周全然後對於我們台灣的媒體出版從業者要有多樣態的了解以後我們再來進行更充沛完備的研議因為我們目的是希望可以幫助他們幫助產業再來要了解的是除了對於這個"},{"start":247.097,"end":275.647,"text":"平台以外生成式的AI在台灣的發展這個其實也有牽涉到我們著作臨階權這樣子的問題那歐盟也有提出這樣子的27個國家的歐盟國家都已經完成相關的立法那其實台灣現在生成式AI發展也很快速我看了一下像美國有發生例如說這個有緣月時報在內的媒體向法院提告認為說有生成式AI的這個單位在沒有授權沒有付費的情況下使用他們的資料"},{"start":276.707,"end":301.536,"text":"那麼現在OpenAI是已經跟美聯社法國世界報英國金融時報等業者都已經有簽訂協議了就是說你要使用它的內容的話你必須要取得合法的授權那在台灣我請國哥後來就是說我們政府也有AI我們的這一個台德目前我們針對我們這個內容我們都是合法授權使用的嘛我之前有跟你們了解我目前是怎麼樣來取得這些合法授權的"},{"start":302.497,"end":320.719,"text":"報告委員在泰德跟各個不同的團體比如說像是新聞媒體洽談過程當中有不同的結果像是跟中央社是以有價的方式購得那ETtoday在上一個部分的話他們是以無償的方式跟我們談授權那下一波還會再進行不同的媒體的溝通"},{"start":321.44,"end":348.246,"text":"好這部分我覺得很重要因為我們公部門要先以身作則就是說我們使用這些資料應該都要去取得合法的授權那新聞有價從我們公部門先開始做起那我相信這個這個組長謝謝這個部長我相信也不會只有台的這一個這個模式所以我請你們我們有沒有針對過在台灣的AI未來廣泛去使用這些資料的授權有沒有做過相關的研究報告我們有一個資料創新師專門在針對不管是從"},{"start":350.586,"end":355.712,"text":"那個條例或從那個一些的辦法那未來我們會怎麼樣來協助他們的授權呢"},{"start":357.291,"end":382.709,"text":"跟委員報告首先我們現在已經研擬一個台灣主權AI訓練語料授權條款就合理的使用這種重置行為那這個合理的使用這個部分呢我們這個授權條款就是會跟制裁局一起共同研擬那如果內容妥適之後呢我們就會對外公布讓政府機關先行那再來就是產業之間也可以同意這個授權條款之後呢我們就可以大量的釋出這些高品質的一個語料好這很重要我希望我們要先來以身作則謝謝謝謝主席謝謝吳珮"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1068,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（13時6分）謝謝主席，有請數發部、國科會。"],["主席：數發部黃部長還有國科會的代表。"],["吳委員沛憶：謝謝部長，今天是五一勞動節，所以要先跟線上所有的媒體朋友說一聲辛苦了，從早上9點到現在大家都還在，所以我儘量守時，在6分鐘之內完成我的質詢。首先，我們今天討論的這個法案，我在數發部報告裡面第2頁看到，經濟學人雜誌指出加拿大原本要透過立法扶助新聞產業，結果反而造成傷害。另外，強制議價權雖然立意良善，但是如果大型社群媒體平臺等選擇停止提供新聞連結，結果受到傷害的，反而會是新聞媒體，而其中又以中小型媒體受到衝擊會最為嚴重，能不能精簡簡單說明，以實務狀況，你們為什麼會這樣判斷？"],["黃部長彥男：我們有做一些研究，請次長來報告。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。"],["林次長宜敬：去年5月16日經濟學人雜誌說的狀況是在於，加拿大通過媒體強制議價法Online News Act以後，結果Meta選擇不玩了，它把加拿大臉書上面所有的新聞連結都封鎖掉，這是我在拜訪加拿大政府的時候，他們給我看的一個截圖，我在加拿大如果在臉書上嘗試去看CNN或者是任何加拿大媒體的新聞，就是統統被封鎖掉了。因為它都已經封鎖掉了，所以沒有辦法去議價，從商業行為上來講的話，Facebook已經不提供任何的新聞連結，所以對於加拿大的各個新聞媒體來講，其實狀況更糟，因為他們連流量都沒有了，原來他們只是收不到錢，現在連流量都沒有了以後，它的狀況就更糟糕了，以上報告。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，我看到2023年文化部有委託雜誌公會做一個「數位平台對出版業新聞媒體之影響」的調查報告，因為其實我們非常關注臺灣的媒體出版業，在全球性的衝擊之下要如何生存，而且要繼續發展。其中受到平台衝擊最大的是在廣告部分，報紙廣告是減少八成，雜誌減少六成，其他像消費、營收統統都有六成至三成減少的衝擊。我知道這個法案你們已經持續找媒體業者以及平台業者進行好幾次跨部會的會議討論，我要特別提醒的是，平台對於媒體業的衝擊，不管是大型媒體或中小型媒體，因為多元的樣態所造成的影響，以及它的議價能力、談判籌碼都是很不一樣的。所以我希望你們的討論要持續，並且必須要考慮多元樣態，也要去瞭解實務上他們現在最受到衝擊的部分，例如小型媒體需要的比較不是廣告收入，也許是曝光、流量等等，大型媒體需要廣告收入，才能夠有更長期的發展，也從而可以讓臺灣的出版、新聞製造業有更多的從業人員提供我們新聞不斷地產出。雖然前面的羅廷瑋委員希望你們走一步算一步，但是因為我的意見不同，我尊重個別委員的發言。我認為不行，我們公務部門必須要謹慎周全，我認為我們要謹慎周全、討論完備之後，才能跨出這一步，否則像我們去年看到在立法院針對預算凍結刪除，就是走一步算一步這樣的心態，結果呢？後來才發現有一些預算是不該刪除、不該凍結的，現在才來處理解凍，所以我還是希望數發部務必跟其他跨部會謹慎周全，對於臺灣的媒體出版從業者要有多樣態的瞭解以後，我們再來進行更充分、完備的研議……"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員的建議。"],["吳委員沛憶：因為我們的目的是希望可以幫助產業。再來要瞭解的是，除了這個平臺以外，生成式AI在臺灣的發展其實也有牽涉到著作鄰接權的問題，歐盟也有提出，在27個歐盟國家都已經完成相關的立法，臺灣現在生成式AI發展也很快速，我看了一下像美國有發生過，例如紐約時報在內的媒體向法院提告，認為有生成式AI的單位在沒有授權、沒有付費的情況下，使用他們的資料。現在OpenAI跟美聯社、法國世界報、英國金融時報等業者都已經有簽訂協議，當你使用它的內容，你必須要取得合法的授權。我請國科會來就是因為在臺灣，我們政府也有AI，我們的TAIDE目前針對這個內容，我之前有跟你們瞭解，我們都是合法授權使用的，目前你們是怎麼樣來取得這些合法授權？"],["郭代理組主任子仙：報告委員，在TAIDE跟各個不同的團體，比如說像是新聞媒體，在洽談過程當中有不同的結果，像是跟中央社是以有價的方式購得，ETtoday在上一個部分的話，他們是以無償的方式跟我們談授權，下一波還會再進行不同媒體的溝通。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，這部分我覺得很重要，因為我們公部門要先以身作則，即我們使用這些資料，應該都要去取得合法的授權，新聞有價，從我們公部門先開始做起。部長，我相信也不會只有TAIDE這個模式，針對在臺灣的AI未來廣泛去使用這些資料的授權有沒有做過相關的研究報告？"],["黃部長彥男：有，我們有一個資料創新司專門在針對不管是從條例，或是從一些的辦法……"],["吳委員沛憶：未來我們會怎麼樣來協助他們的授權呢？"],["莊司長明芬：跟委員報告，首先，我們現在已經研擬一個臺灣主權AI訓練語料授權條款，就這種重製行為合理的使用部分，這個授權條款會跟智財局一起共同研擬，如果內容妥適之後，我們就會對外公布，讓政府機關先行，再來產業之間也可以在同意授權條款之後，我們就可以大量地釋出這些高品質的語料。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，這很重要，我希望我們要先以身作則，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員質詢。","接下來請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 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謝謝召委 有請黃部長好 蘇衛部黃部長勞動部理事長好 勞動部理事長"},{"start":14.768,"end":39.554,"text":"部長好 市長好我想今天談到這個新聞媒體數位平台強制溢價法本席版本最重要的一個精神是建立平台的媒體就以付費議題進行充分協商的議題程序 溢價程序唯有達到最後雙方仍舊無法達成共識的時候才會啟動仲裁機制決定平台應負擔的付費金額健全目前失靈的一個市場機制"},{"start":40.914,"end":67.693,"text":"那我想透過資訊的揭露給予雙方的一個合理溢價空間也保障了媒體從業人員今天的一個權益我想今天大家都非常的關切但是我要講的是去年10月14日台北市報業商業同業工會中華民國衛星廣播電視事業商業同業工會中市民視台視發表媒體共同的聲明希望盡速立法 公平競爭今天文化部的報告也寫到"},{"start":68.533,"end":80.188,"text":"收集平面媒體業的一個立法意見報業及雜誌業均認為需要立法立法已經是共識了呼籲速發部應該盡速的提出版本"},{"start":81.104,"end":98.78,"text":"我要跟部長特別分享本席作為本屆國民黨第一位提出媒體溢價法的一個委員我想大家都知道現在Google跟Meta兩個大型的數位平台長期無償使用這樣子的新聞媒體台灣新聞媒體的廣告收入幾乎是大幅的下滑"},{"start":99.801,"end":125.877,"text":"那連帶影響媒體從業人員以及他們的收入今天是五一勞動節我們看到兩間大型的數位科技平台掌握了超過半數的媒體新聞流量成為了台灣主要的新的新聞來源卻不曾來付費我想我講了這麼多我們先不談剛剛我所聽到部長有提的國外的一些案例國外的一些法規就單純你聽我這樣論述你覺得公平嗎 部長"},{"start":129.099,"end":157.286,"text":"那個鮑偉這個確實是一個問題那確實也是需要解決問題只是說這個因為從我們現在因為我們訂一個方案必須要有效那只是說這個目前是看起來我們原來認為的方案但目前看起來其實對我們媒體擔心是反效果有擔心當然也有期待那剛剛你有提到澳洲這個部分的案例但是你也要找找看有沒有其他各國有沒有成功的案例"},{"start":158.326,"end":182.374,"text":"我們希望說在這個部分上如果他沒有成功案例剛剛旁邊有人打pass說沒有成功案例但是沒關係我知道我有看到了沒有成功案例但是我要講的是在澳洲的部分有失敗的案例那可不可以將這失敗的案例我們來加以的去做一個調整成為台灣目前能夠有的新方案那成為一個成功模式我們也可以變成全球首創"},{"start":183.314,"end":213.054,"text":"那我還是希望說見請召委能夠則其的盡快逐條審查也拜託召委這麼的英明今天所排審這樣子的一個題目那我想新聞有價是社會共識社會期待剛剛也提到10月14日我們看到這樣子的這麼多媒體從業人員還有相關的不管是平面雜誌他們都發聲了新聞有價應該禁訴立法我想那難道這些聲音訴發部不知道還是訴發部就只是因為澳洲的案例所以現在不提版本"},{"start":213.534,"end":239.773,"text":"是這樣嗎我們都知道你們有版本嗎我們有跟媒體溝通好我相信那你們有版本嗎部長跟委員報告我們都相信媒體有價但是解決這個問題有三種解決方案第一個是法律第二個是商業第三個是用科技那目前我們從這個加拿大或者是澳洲或者是歐盟的這個案例來看的話"},{"start":240.593,"end":259.388,"text":"這些立法都沒有成功的案例事實上以那個加拿大來講的話他們通過他們的Online News Act以後那個Meta就把在加拿大把所有的那個媒體的新聞的連結通通移除掉了移除掉退出嘛我都知道所以我想說你剛剛說的法律"},{"start":260.97,"end":278.347,"text":"商業 科技我們現在是著重在商業跟科技的方法我們來幫助這個媒體讓他收到如果你認為強制溢價是膽有那我們這一部法令也不一定要叫做你所說的溢價法"},{"start":278.928,"end":295.544,"text":"可以叫做說往這個科技商業的部分來做規範那我想叫什麼名字都不重要重要的是我們的台灣媒體的從業人員因為獲利增加讓我們所有的從業人員福利跟權益增加這是我們現在在重視的"},{"start":296.525,"end":315.545,"text":"那現在現階段速發部的報告有提到審慎考量目前國際的局勢目前國際的局勢不排除引發美國採關稅報復的一個風險我想你提出這樣子的報告我們不能批評因為你把風險寫上去嘛但是我們可以探討這樣子的一個部分我想問"},{"start":316.94,"end":342.527,"text":"我們先提啊 速發部數位產業署副署長陳惠敏在2024年10月29日也曾經表示速發部非常贊成媒體溢價法的一個立法但幾個國家推動時也面臨了壓力國內若有共識 速發部願意配合言猶在耳啊那當然今天所提到的美國關稅又是另外一個題目但是請問部長"},{"start":344.628,"end":362.499,"text":"現在台灣的媒體希望能夠有這樣子的議價法已經遭到美國關切了嗎還是你們只是單純評估風險因為我們還沒有立法所以現在美國還沒有表示他的態度但是從美國商會有表示態度但是也從目前澳洲跟加拿大被美國"},{"start":363.559,"end":380.197,"text":"這樣的一個反對我們也擔心台灣如果通過類似的法律一樣會得到美國的一些反對那現階段在關稅正在談判的一個時程當中我們都知道 趙偉排了這一個題目那我覺得這是一個非常好談判關稅的一個談判條件"},{"start":383.342,"end":399.627,"text":"那你有沒有跟行政院甚至未來要準備已經在談判的過程當中把媒體溢價法也列入到我們跟美國談判的一個關鍵之一跟委員報告我們已經跟行政院的關稅談判的那個長官都已經報告過這件事情了"},{"start":399.707,"end":426.243,"text":"好 對 那所以嘛 既然有機會成為談判條件之一我還是建議啊 趙偉我們是 首相跟委員報告我們不希望在這個時候因為這件事情變成這個關稅談判團隊的障礙你認為是障礙啦 但昨天我想我們昨天有看到牛許廷委員喔在談 在講這個行政院對談的時候啊有講這個美國關稅在談判的過程快不一定好"},{"start":427.303,"end":449.413,"text":"擬定雙方的需要就競爭型的一個談判還是要坐下來好好的談判我覺得這些項目都是談判的一個條件之一我覺得作為在野黨執政黨要去談判執政黨有所謂的包袱有所謂的壓力但在野黨我們也希望當執政黨的黑臉"},{"start":450.833,"end":468.53,"text":"讓執政黨在面對國際的壓力的時候也能夠把在野黨的聲音講出來作為執政黨談判的籌碼所以我還是建議啊 趙偉這個應該還是要持續的推動我們走一步算一步成為我們現在中華民國談判的時候"},{"start":469.791,"end":498.01,"text":"也能夠一方面為了媒體而發聲一方面我們也能夠適時的作為談判條件說不定說不定到時候美國所給予的這樣相關的一個條件可能更好但現在我們不是強硬的是一定要過而是我們一邊走一邊把這些媒體的聲音把從業人員的一些困難一一的把它給探討更希望在逐條討論的時候有行政院的版本但我想部長我想跟你請問你個人認為啦"},{"start":500.312,"end":510.602,"text":"我們的步驟啊就媒體議價而言一定是先自由議價再來指派調解人再來強制仲裁你覺得這三個步驟哪一個步驟會成為美國關稅報復最大的一個風險"},{"start":517.395,"end":540.631,"text":"他們關切哪一個部分這三個條件當中當然整個法我知道跟委員報告主要是強制溢價還有強制仲裁這個部分美國有非常大的意見強制仲裁是第三嘛所以我想旁邊我們的長官也非常的專業他在討論這個部分但是自由溢價我們可以先看到如果自由溢價有這個機會"},{"start":542.438,"end":569.138,"text":"那在議價法當中我們是可以再加強自由議價以及調解的部分強制仲裁是可能被最為關切的部分在逐條審查的時候我們要不要把強制的部分納入或者是逐步的納入或者是部分的納入這個都可以再討論所以我們還是要了解什麼樣的關鍵的法會讓美國比較關切那現在看到自由議價跟這個所謂的調解"},{"start":572.24,"end":588.205,"text":"這個部分是沒有疑慮的所以我若不透過法律的程序來立法那媒體有什麼力量去做數位平台的談判所以溢價的機制要如何來進行這是我們現階段應該著重在前面兩個階段為媒體來發聲所以台灣媒體的產業不像國外若過度的謹慎"},{"start":593.266,"end":619.296,"text":"我們目前現在的局勢恐怕會具媒體的產業更加的劇烈困境所以也會進一步的弱化整個媒體的相關風險所以立法才是著重於媒體的著作權的一個保障那我想請問一下勞動部是請問次長喔勞動部是否認同透過媒體議價法的立法能改善記者薪資跟勞動環境"},{"start":622.292,"end":639.228,"text":"我們勞動部對於任何能夠提高包括記得朋友在來勞工朋友的薪資福利勞動條件我們都支持至於這一個法因為我們都尊重速發部他們的主管權責勞動部自己沒有立場嗎在於強制溢價的部分"},{"start":640.595,"end":666.382,"text":"因為議價這件事如果照團體協議法要有工會才能夠那我們台灣目前媒體新聞媒體業有成立工會的這個事業單位就我了解並不是多數所以可能我們要先鼓勵新聞媒體業他們的事業單位的勞工能夠成立工會你點出一個問題嘛那所以這部分不管最後議價法有沒有通過我覺得還是先鼓勵讓他們能夠成立嘛對不對加強這個部分的一個凝聚"},{"start":666.542,"end":684.883,"text":"我們勞動部一向都有一些鼓勵那個企業世界單位的勞工成立企業工會的一些補助跟協助輔導方案好那這個部分我們還是希望勞動部應該站在整個媒體從業人員的立場我相信媒體如果能夠多賺錢他一定會多分配資源那現在請問黃部長"},{"start":686.525,"end":710.24,"text":"台灣媒體溢價法的立法就數位平台而言Google有提出台灣新聞數位共融基金目前成效如何有辦法促進產業共融嗎有現在已經有40個Case然後一年一億現在第二年執行完畢所以你覺得有提升台灣新聞生態系的一個多元跟永續那個請那個署長可以署長請說"},{"start":711.522,"end":737.828,"text":"是 我們目前認為這個應該對媒體是很有幫助另外它Google也有另外一個專案就是北極星的專案它這個是請國外的顧問就Financial Times來教導國內的媒體如何做新聞地面的一個營運模式新的營運模式來 那這樣子台灣新聞產業長期受到數位廣告的營收外流等結構性的一個問題現在你說單一基金看起來有效但是整個單一基金可以解決根本問題嗎你覺得可以嗎"},{"start":739.869,"end":758.246,"text":"請問委員指的是哪一種的基金是媒體強制溢價得到的基金還是政府那是Google出錢的基金我剛剛講Google提出台灣新聞數位共榮基金你們說有效可是整個結構性的問題就單一個基金就可以解決嗎"},{"start":759.119,"end":787.488,"text":"我們認為說另外一個北極星計畫可能更有幫助因為現在媒體的困境是失去訂閱的收入然後因為那個Financial Times他們在訂閱制做得非常好所以他就跟那個Google合作然後經過我們那個速發部的促成他們現在在台灣幫各個新聞媒體做那個訂閱制的那個機制那這個費用都是由Google來促成所以我要講的是說單一基金不可能嘛我們還是要需要多元的計畫去整個促進整個根本問題嘛那Live Today呢有提出什麼嗎"},{"start":788.7,"end":810.767,"text":"有跟媒體要什麼合作方案嗎Light Today目前他們本來就已經在付費了Light Today本來就是在付錢給媒體好 他們現在就有在付費了所以還是有人願意做嘛所以我們要怎麼樣把這些商考模式都一一列出好好的去談成為我們這一次幫媒體發聲最主要的一個內容好不好 好 我們一起加油 謝謝謝謝樓庭偉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1012,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時52分）謝謝召委，有請黃部長、勞動部李次長。"],["主席：請數位部黃部長、勞動部李次長。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好、次長好。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：今天談到新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案，本席的版本最重要的一個精神是建立平臺，媒體得就已付費議題進行充分協商的議價程序，唯有最後雙方仍舊無法達成共識的時候才會啟動仲裁機制，決定平臺應負擔的付費金額，健全目前失靈的市場機制。透過資訊的揭露，給予雙方一個合理的議價空間，也保障了媒體從業人員的權益。我想今天大家都非常的關切這個議題，但是我要講的是去年10月14日，台北市報業商業同業公會、中華民國衛星廣播電視事業商業同業公會、中視、民視及台視發表媒體的共同聲明，希望儘速立法，公平競爭。今天文化部的報告也寫到，蒐集平面媒體業的立法意見，報業及雜誌業均認為需要立法，立法已經是共識了，呼籲數發部應該儘速提出版本。","我要特別跟部長分享，本席作為本屆國民黨第一位提出媒體議價法的委員，我想大家都知道，現在Google跟Meta兩個大型的數位平臺長期無償使用這樣子的新聞媒體，臺灣新聞媒體的廣告收入幾乎是大幅下滑，連帶影響媒體從業人員以及他們的收入。我們看到兩間大型的數位科技平臺掌握了超過半數的新聞媒體流量，成為了臺灣主要的、新的新聞來源，卻不曾付費，我想我講了這麼多，我們先不談剛剛我聽到部長所提的國外的一些案例和法規，就單純你聽我這樣論述，你覺得公平嗎？部長。"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，這個確實是一個問題，確實也需要解決問題，我們現在要訂一個方案，必須要有效。只是說目前看起來，我們擔心原來的方案對我們的媒體會是反效果……"],["羅委員廷瑋：有擔心，當然也有期待嘛。剛剛你有提到澳洲的案例，但是你也要找找看，有沒有其他國家成功的案例，我們希望在這個部分上，如果它沒有成功的案例……剛剛旁邊有人打pass說沒有成功案例。"],["黃部長彥男：那個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒關係，我知道，我有看到了，沒有成功案例。但是我要講的是，在澳洲的部分有失敗的案例，我們可不可以將這個失敗的案例去加以調整，成為臺灣目前能夠有的新方案，成為一個成功模式？我們也可以變成全球首創嘛，我還是希望、建請召委能夠擇期儘快逐條審查，拜託召委，召委這麼的英明，今天排審這樣子的一個題目。","我想新聞有價是社會共識、社會期待，剛剛也提到10月14日，我們看到這麼多媒體從業人員還有相關的，不管是平面雜誌還是其他媒體，他們都發聲了，新聞有價應該儘速立法，難道這些聲音數發部都不知道？還是數發部就只是因為澳洲的案例，所以現在不提版本，是這樣嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：這個我們都知道，而且我們一直都有在關注。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你們有版本嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我剛剛有講，我們有跟媒體溝通，也有跟業者溝通……"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我相信，那你們有版本嗎？部長。"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，我們都認同媒體有價，但是解決這個問題有三種解決方案，第一個是法律，第二個是商業，第三個是用科技。目前我們從加拿大，或者是澳洲，或者是歐盟的案例來看，這些立法都沒有成功的案例，事實上，以加拿大來講，他們通過Online News Act以後，Meta就把在加拿大所有媒體的新聞連結統統移除掉了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，移除掉退出嘛，這我都知道……"],["林次長宜敬：所以我們現在就是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你剛剛說的法律、商業、科技這三個……"],["林次長宜敬：對，我們現在是著重在商業跟科技的方法，我們來幫助媒體，讓它收到應該收到的錢。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，現在我要講的是，如果你認為強制議價會有擔憂，我們這一部法令也不一定要叫做你所說的議價法，可以往科技、商業的部分來做規範，我想叫什麼名字都不重要，重要的是我們臺灣的媒體從業人員，會因為獲利增加，讓福利跟權益也增加，這是我們現在重視的。現階段數發部的報告有提到，審慎考量目前國際的局勢，目前國際的局勢不排除引發美國採關稅報復的風險。我想你提出這樣子的報告，我們不能批評，因為你把風險寫上去了，但是我們可以探討這個部分。我想先問，數發部數位產業署副署長陳慧敏在2024年10月29日曾經表示，數發部非常贊成媒體議價法的立法，但幾個國家推動時也面臨了壓力，國內若有共識，數發部願意配合。言猶在耳，當然今天所提到的美國關稅又是另外一個題目，請問部長，現在臺灣的媒體希望能夠有這樣子的議價法，已經遭到美國關切了嗎？還是你們只是單純評估風險？"],["黃部長彥男：因為我們還沒有立法，所以現在美國還沒表示它的態度，但是美國商會有表示態度，從目前澳洲跟加拿大被美國反對的情況來看，我們也擔心臺灣若通過類似的法律，一樣會受到美國反對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：現階段關稅正在談判的時程當中，我們都知道，召委排了這一個題目，我覺得是一個非常好的關稅談判條件，你有沒有跟行政院報告，甚至已經準備在談判的過程當中，把媒體議價法也列入到我們跟美國談判的關鍵之一？"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，我們已經跟行政院負責關稅談判的長官報告過這件事情。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，既然有機會成為談判條件之一，我還是建議召委……"],["林次長宜敬：事實上，跟委員報告，我們不希望在這個時候因為這件事情變成關稅談判團隊的障礙。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你認為是障礙，但是我們昨天有看到牛煦庭委員在講，行政院對談的時候，有講到美國關稅在談判的過程，快不一定好，擬定雙方的需要，就競爭型的談判還是要坐下來好好談判，我覺得這些項目都是談判的條件之一。作為執政黨要去談判有所謂的包袱、有所謂的壓力，但是我們在野黨也希望當執政黨的黑臉，讓執政黨在面對國際壓力的時候，也能夠把在野黨的聲音講出來，作為執政黨談判的籌碼。所以我還是建議召委，這個應該還是要持續推動，我們走一步算一步，成為現在中華民國在談判的時候，一方面也能夠為了媒體而發聲，一方面也能夠適時的作為談判條件，說不定到時候美國所給予的相關條件可能更好。但現在我們不是強硬的一定要過，而是一邊走，一邊把這些媒體的聲音、把從業人員的困難一一探討，更希望在逐條討論的時候有行政院的版本。","我想請問部長，你個人認為我們的步驟，就媒體議價而言，一定是先自由議價，再來指派調解人，最後是強制仲裁，你覺得這三個步驟哪一個步驟會成為美國關稅報復最大的一個風險？這三個條件當中，他們關切哪一個部分？"],["黃部長彥男：整體都是，因為整個法……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然是整個法，我知道。"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，主要是強制議價還有強制仲裁這個部分，美國有非常大的意見。"],["羅委員廷瑋：強制仲裁是第三個步驟，所以我們的長官也非常的專業在討論這個部分，但是自由議價我們可以先看到，如果有自由議價這個機會，在議價法當中，我們可以再加強自由議價以及調解的部分，強制仲裁可能是被最為關切的部分。在逐條審查的時候，我們要不要把強制的部分納入，或者是逐步的納入，或者是部分的納入，這個都可以再討論，所以我們還是要瞭解什麼關鍵法規會讓美國比較關切。現在看到自由議價和所謂的調解，這個部分是沒有疑慮的，所以如果不透過法律的程序來立法，媒體有什麼力量去做數位平臺的談判？所以議價的機制要如何來進行，我們現階段應該著重在前面兩個階段，為媒體來發聲。","臺灣的媒體產業不像國外，若過度謹慎，目前的局勢恐怕會造成媒體產業更加劇烈的困境，也會進一步地弱化整個媒體的相關風險，所以立法才著重於媒體的著作權保障。請問勞動部次長，勞動部是否認同透過媒體議價法的立法能改善記者薪資跟勞動環境？"],["李次長健鴻：委員，勞動部對於任何能夠提高包括記者朋友、勞工朋友的薪資福利、勞動條件，我們都支持，至於這個法我們都尊重數發部的主管權責。"],["羅委員廷瑋：在強制議價的部分，勞動部自己沒有立場嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：因為議價這件事情，按照團體協約法規定要有工會才能夠做，我們臺灣目前新聞媒體業有成立工會的事業單位，據我瞭解，並不是多數，所以可能我們要先鼓勵新聞媒體業事業單位的勞工能夠成立工會。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你點出一個問題，這個部分不管最後議價法有沒有通過，我覺得還是先鼓勵讓他們能夠成立，對不對？加強這個部分的凝聚。"],["李次長健鴻：我們勞動部一向都有鼓勵事業單位的勞工成立企業工會的一些補助跟協助輔導方案。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個部分我們還是希望勞動部應該站在整個媒體從業人員的立場，我相信媒體如果能夠多賺錢，它一定會多分配資源。再請問黃部長，臺灣媒體議價法的立法，就數位平臺而言，Google有提出台灣新聞數位共榮基金，目前成效如何，有辦法促進產業共榮嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：有，現在已經有40個case，一年一億，現在第二年執行完畢。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你覺得有提升臺灣新聞生態系的多元跟永續嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：請署長說明。"],["羅委員廷瑋：署長，請說。"],["林署長俊秀：我們目前認為這個應該對媒體是很有幫助，另外，Google也有另外的專案，就是北極星專案，這個是請國外顧問Financial Times來教導國內的媒體如何做新聞訂閱新的營運模式。"],["羅委員廷瑋：臺灣新聞產業長期受到數位廣告的營收外流等結構性的問題，現在你說單一基金看起來有效，但是整個單一基金可以解決根本問題嗎？你覺得可以嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：請問委員指的是哪一種基金，是媒體強制議價得到的基金，還是政府……"],["羅委員廷瑋：剛剛提到的台灣新聞數位共榮基金。"],["林次長宜敬：那是Google出錢的基金。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，我知道，我剛剛有講Google有提出台灣新聞數位共榮基金，你們說有效，可是整個結構性的問題單一一個基金就可以解決嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：我們認為另外一個北極星計畫可能更有幫助，因為現在媒體的困境是失去訂閱的收入，Financial Times在訂閱制做得非常好，所以它就跟Google合作，然後經過我們數發部的促成，他們現在在臺灣幫各個新聞媒體做訂閱制的機制，這個費用都是由Google出的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我要講的是，單一基金不可能，我們還是要需要多元的計畫促進整個根本問題，LINE TODAY有提出什麼嗎？有跟媒體要什麼合作方案嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：LINE TODAY本來就已經在付費了。"],["黃部長彥男：LINE TODAY本來就有付錢給媒體。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，他們現在就有在付費了，所以還是有人願意做，我們要怎麼樣把這些參考模式都一一列出，好好的去談，成為我們這一次幫媒體發聲最主要的內容，好不好？我們一起加油，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員。","現在請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案；\n六、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00002"}}},{"id":"160914","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160914","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc0f0049446a865c9772bf9a8039e28b7ca6503c30100658372e19b09f8f2dd8cbd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:42:42 - 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次長說明那個就是我們昨天有跟LINE開會那LINE他們表示說他們最新版已經上架了的那個最新版的LINE它有一個功能就是說如果我的LINE帳號被詐騙集團被騙走了那我馬上再登入的話在我原來手機上登入我就可以把這個帳號再搶回來"},{"start":122.518,"end":148.641,"text":"再搶回來 恢復過來對 恢復過來那這個新的版本已經上架了但是並不是所有的民眾都更新到最新的版本所以我們在這邊也要呼籲所有的民眾盡快的把手機上的LINE版本更新到最新的版本這是昨天LINE公司總公司告訴我們的所以你們必須台灣公司LINE的台灣公司所以必須好好去宣導很多的民眾還不知道他如果沒有更新他就沒有這個機制"},{"start":149.582,"end":172.512,"text":"是所以一定要好好去宣導是那麼在這邊我特別要說的就是說美國跟韓國他都已經重新的調整整個治安防疫的這個架構那我們呢他們設置的專責機構強化跨部會因為也不是只有你們到時候還要比如說警政單位等橫向的一個聯訪非常的重要請教"},{"start":173.633,"end":201.978,"text":"我們本來就那個有治安聯防的機制嘛治安署那個可以做個蔡署長做個報告好 署長請做說明是的 謝謝委員的關心我想這個我們整個治安聯防我們就有一個治安的情資分享中心跟一個監控跟應變中心那每個關鍵機構設施他們都有領域的這些包括我們的情資分享跟監控還有應變的中心都有所以這整個聯防體系都有建立"},{"start":203.715,"end":229.685,"text":"部長您聽到署長的報告整個都有建立但是目前民眾還是非常的不安因為我們的防治機制本身認為有提升的一個空間因為我們注意任何的政策任何的法律面我們就要看他的答案如果他的答案是不符合您所"},{"start":231.547,"end":236.381,"text":"設置的 而且是你自己都不滿意在這樣的情況之下我們更要去討論面對民眾所需求"},{"start":240.41,"end":268.96,"text":"那個委員所講的是資安的供給嗎還是如果資安的供給現在的確台灣是資安的供給熱點所以我們也就是剛剛講說用聯防機制我們擋掉了每天超過兩百四十萬次的供給然後所以事實上是已經在這個資安的防護上我們因為聯防因為公司部門的公司協力確實是擋掉很多但是當然還是有些入侵所以這個我們還要繼續努力但是"},{"start":270.32,"end":294.453,"text":"但是部長在我們的治安署最新的公佈國家自動安全情勢報告當中2024年觀光我們公務機關跟2023年來做比較我們是為真的那你們做了那麼多的機制竟然連我們公部門都為真都敢這麼做那我們要怎麼樣去防治這個就是本席一個"},{"start":296.29,"end":323.817,"text":"剛剛所說的我們既然設置了這些的機制但是答案還是不滿意的時候我們要去精進這個方案啦這個是非常的重要因為在你治安事件的類型當中以非法入侵的事件是佔了62.52這個是非常高的一個比例啊所以在治安治理的管理上面我們認為我們多數還是停滯在什麼停滯在指引建議"},{"start":325.257,"end":345.169,"text":"報告委員我們現在有個治安法修法正在修那個如果修過之後會幫助我們治安房屋很大部長你講的就是本期要跟你討論的既然我們的答案是不如我們的理想的時候我們該當修法就是要修法那你們的進度現在到哪裡治安法已經我們詢答過了現在就是在做逐條的審查我們應該很快"},{"start":346.67,"end":372.579,"text":"所以要趕快盡快的去溝通因為這個已經佔了62點多觀光部門就是如此所以我們非常社會上非常迫切的需要因為我們看到我們應變的能力或許在法的立場上面你們還沒有更寬廣所以該修法就要修法該政策落實就要政策落實因為這個應變能力處理事件民眾認為他的透明度是不夠的他沒有辦法有效的去防範"},{"start":373.886,"end":398.134,"text":"修法我們會加速進行因為我們的目的也就是要強化政府治安體系的一個韌性最後一個議題我跟你討論數位領域的就業金卡我們從2023年上路到現在兩年到了今年二月底我們總共764人獲得了數位金卡其中以美國跟亞洲地區的人才為主那麼你們主要的類型就在於軟體開發"},{"start":399.474,"end":415.043,"text":"城市設計 電商跟治安的這個技術領域但是我們看到全球都在搶人才啊以及國內產業它轉型它非常的需要這些高科技的一個技術人才所以我們金卡的政策 請問"},{"start":416.224,"end":440.114,"text":"目前到目前為止我們的規模跟實際上導入的人力似乎還是有限還是有限為什麼會如此呢大家都這麼缺那所以我們現在兩年統計的數字764人到底我們人才進到我們台灣來他的後續落地他的創業跟就業的一個成果評估跟追蹤請說什麼"},{"start":443.766,"end":460.03,"text":"因為這個庶產署可以做個說明好 請做說明是 各位報告我們會持續追蹤那我們在這爭取人才也是花了很大力氣我們跟國發會到美國到歐洲到東南亞到日本這個本席清楚所以本席請教你764人落到我們台灣來目前還在台灣貢獻還在就業的"},{"start":464.315,"end":473.924,"text":"有多少跟委員報告有一部分是本來在台灣的外國公司的外國人對他要長期在這邊所以現在你764位還有多少繼續在服務"},{"start":478.004,"end":504.167,"text":"你的追蹤成果呢我們會在持續中不過目前比較沒有出不過一大部分的確是外國公司在台灣的人才部長這個就是我們說的部長我們今天我們英明的召集人安排了這個議程這是你們的課業你今天已經兩年了不是兩個月你已經兩年你今天764人"},{"start":506.783,"end":527.392,"text":"你到底你的成效是怎麼樣 你應該要有所評估如果我們的數字是不夠的 產業界還需要 那麼你們的誘因是什麼因為你們有基本的條件嘛 你要滿8年的這個經驗而且公司的月薪要16萬以上 而且他的學歷要跟這個相關科系"},{"start":528.192,"end":551.51,"text":"那你們應該去統計 你的結果到底是怎麼樣我們做任何的事情 你一定要去反覆的去討論你的成果究竟是什麼很好 繼續發揚不好 我們要達不到理想 我們要怎麼樣去精進嘛你怎麼到現在連你764人 到底還有多少人落地留任 還繼續在努力你不知道"},{"start":553.298,"end":582.338,"text":"報委員這個回去我們再去整理以後再給委員一個報告不可以如此要精進你把你檢討目前為止你兩年來這個成效符不符合你的要求我認為產業界的需求你絕對達不到他的符合嘛所以如果是如此的時候你的誘因到底要怎麼去調整好不好你去查明你的評估結果到底是怎麼樣可以精進的方案是什麼我們來協助我們的產業嘛好嗎加油"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":967,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時42分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔發言，邀請數發部部長。"],["主席：好，數發部黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。通訊軟體已成民眾日常生活一部分，但詐騙集團透過各種方式盜用帳號、竊密，讓受害國人日漸增加。據媒體4月23日報導：「盜用帳號事件層出不窮，連行政院前政務委員的LINE帳號都被盜用。對此，產業署署長林俊秀表示，已邀集警政署、刑事局等單位與日本LINE總公司開會，承諾會將處理量能由每週100件提昇至200件以上，並加快處理流程」。這是你們在4月23號對於這個事件發出的一個訊息，所以在這邊請教部長，我們是不是已經有要求LINE公司對臺灣受害案件設立緊急停權以及快速恢復專案的機制？請做說明。"],["黃部長彥男：我們跟LINE有在持續溝通，細節部分我請署長說明。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請署長。"],["林署長俊秀：跟委員報告，次長也親自主持跟LINE的一些會議，剛剛已經報告了，包括re-login、取回他的帳號等等這些。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請次長說明。"],["林次長宜敬：我們昨天有跟LINE開會，LINE表示他們已經上架的最新版LINE，其中有一個功能是，如果我的LINE帳號被詐騙集團騙走了，我馬上在我原來手機再登入，我就可以把這個帳號再搶回來。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：再搶回來、再恢復過來。"],["林次長宜敬：對。這個新的版本已經上架了，但並不是所有的民眾都更新到最新的版本，所以我們在這邊也要呼籲所有的民眾，儘快把手機上的LINE版本更新到最新的版本。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是昨天LINE總公司告訴我們的？"],["林次長宜敬：是，臺灣公司。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對！LINE的臺灣公司，所以你們必須好好去宣導，很多的民眾還不知道，他如果沒有更新，就沒有這個機制，所以一定要好好去宣導。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我特別要說的是，美國跟韓國都已經重新調整整個資安防禦的架構，那我們呢？而且他們設置了專責機構、強化跨部會機制，所以也不是只有你們，到時候還要與警政單位等單位橫向的聯防，這個非常的重要，請部長說明。"],["黃部長彥男：我們本來就有資安聯防的機制，我請資安署蔡署長做個報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，署長請做說明。"],["蔡署長福隆：謝謝委員的關心，就整個資安聯防，我們有一個資安的情資分享中心，以及一個監控跟應變中心，每個關鍵基礎設施都有他們領域當中的情資分享，跟監控、應變的中心，這些都有，所以這整個聯防體系都有建立。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長應該有聽到署長的報告，即整個體系都有建立，但是目前民眾還是非常的不安，因為我們的防制機制，本席認為有提升的空間，因為我們做任何的政策，任何的法律面，我們就要看它的答案，如果它的答案是不符合您所設置的，而且連你自己都不滿意的話，在這樣的情況之下，我們更要去討論、去面對民眾的需求。"],["黃部長彥男：委員講的是資安的攻擊嗎？還是其他的？如果是資安的攻擊，現在臺灣的確是資安的攻擊熱點，所以剛剛有說，我們用聯防機制每天擋掉了超過240萬次的攻擊，所以事實上在資安的防護上，因為有聯防機制、因為有公私部門的公私協力，確實是擋掉了很多，當然還是有一些入侵，所以我們還是要繼續努力，但是資安……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，據我們資安署最新公布的國家資通安全情勢報告當中，光是以公務機關來看，以2024年跟2023年來做比較，我們是微增的，你們做了那麼多的機制，竟然連我們公部門都微增，他們都敢這麼做！那我們要怎麼樣去防制呢？這就是本席剛剛所說的，我們既然設置了這一些機制，但答案還是不滿意的時候，我們要去精進這個方案，這是非常重要的，因為在資安事件類型當中，非法入侵事件是占了62.52%，非常高的比例，所以在資安治理、管理上面，本席認為我們多數還是停滯在指引、建議上面。"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，現在資安法正在修法，如果修正通過，會對我們的資安防護幫助很大。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你講的就是本席要跟你討論的，既然我們的答案是不如理想的時候，則該當修法的就修法，那你們的進度現在到哪裡了？"],["黃部長彥男：資安法已經詢答過了，現在就是要做逐條審查，我想應該會很快。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以要趕快、儘快去溝通，因為這已經占了百分之六十二點多，光公部門就是如此，所以我們社會上非常迫切的需要，因為我們應變的能力，或許在法的立場上面，你們還沒有更寬廣，所以該修法的就要修法，政策該落實的就要落實，因為就應變能力以及處理事件上，民眾認為它的透明度是不夠的，沒有辦法有效去防範。"],["黃部長彥男：修法的部分我們會加速進行。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為我們的目的也就是要強化政府資安體系的韌性。","最後要跟你討論的議題是數位領域就業金卡，自2023年上路至今近兩年，截至今年2月底，總共有764人獲發數位金卡，其中以美國籍與亞洲地區人才為主，主要類型集中在軟體開發、程式設計、電商與資安等技術領域。然面對全球都在搶人才以及國內產業轉型時非常需要這些高科技技術人才，目前金卡政策的規模與實際導入人力似乎有限，為什麼會如此呢？這個政策上路近兩年，人數有764人，而這些人才的後續落地、創業或就業成果的評估與追蹤，請做說明。"],["黃部長彥男：本人請數產署說明。"],["林署長俊秀：跟委員報告，我們會持續追蹤，而且我們在爭取人才方面，也是花了很大力氣，我們跟國發會到美國、到歐洲、到東南亞、到日本……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個本席清楚，所以本席請教，這764人落到我們臺灣來，目前還在臺灣貢獻、還在就業的有多少人？"],["林署長俊秀：跟委員報告，有一部分是本來在臺灣的外國公司的外國人，他要長期在這邊，他要留下來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以現在764位當中還有多少位繼續在服務？你的追蹤成果呢？"],["林署長俊秀：委員，我們會再持續做，不過目前比較沒有這個數字，不過大部分的確是外國公司在臺灣的人才。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，這個就是我們說的……"],["黃部長彥男：委員，我們再把資料提供給委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，今天我們英明的召集人安排了這個議程，這是你們的課業，今天已經上路兩年，不是兩個月，而且有764人，到底成效是怎麼樣，你應該要有所評估，如果我們的數字是不夠的，產業界還是需要的話，那麼你們的誘因是什麼？因為你們有要求一些基本條件，包括要滿8年的經驗，而且公司的月薪要16萬以上，而且他的學歷是相關科系，則你們應該去統計你的成果到底是怎麼樣，我們做任何的事情，一定要反覆去討論你的成果究竟是什麼樣，若很好，繼續發揚；若不好，達不到理想，我們要怎麼樣去精進，你怎麼到現在連這764人到底還有多少人落地留任、還繼續在努力你都不知道！"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，這個部分我們回去整理後再給委員一個報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不可以如此，要精進、要檢討，包括這兩年來的成效符不符合你的要求，我認為產業界的需求你絕對達不到，如果是如此的時候，你的誘因到底要怎麼去調整，請去查明你的評估結果到底是怎麼樣、可以精進的方案是什麼，大家來協助我們的產業，好嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：加油！"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","現在請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 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還可以 那個執行長呢也是兩年 那個我們副市長呢也是兩年 你們都還蠻標準的那如果我這樣請教 如果你們住在十萬桶的核廢料旁邊你們覺得你要多久見檢一次十萬桶的核廢料旁邊你幾歲人可能每天都會有點緊張"},{"start":82.154,"end":94.924,"text":"會想要多健檢幾次嗎還是標準就好了一定會頻率想要高一點頻率想要高一點那我再請教就是從1982年從這個核廢料儲存在蘭嶼那政府幫蘭嶼的這個居民健檢幾次1982年"},{"start":105.38,"end":113.923,"text":"這個數目有沒有對啊你如果兩年一次的話或者我說政府應該要幫忙他們健檢幾次但卻健檢了幾次我跟委員報告就是說10708年是有針對全對沒錯我知道你講的是這個蘭嶼居民健康檢查的這個專案的一個計畫嘛對不對就是107年11月14號到108年3月12號"},{"start":132.549,"end":148.935,"text":"好那就是這麼短的時間幾個月而已而且看起來是一次性所以這個核廢料是長期儲存在蘭嶼但是呢我們政府對於這個蘭嶼居民的這個健檢卻像是一夜情過了就沒了所以"},{"start":154.466,"end":175.452,"text":"剛剛部長點出一個很重要的事情就是說那個核廢料是長期儲存在蘭嶼嘛你如果住在旁邊你也會想要多健檢幾次嘛對不對 頻率想要高一點嘛所以我們政府應該對於這個蘭嶼居民的健康的這個風險的監測應該是一個持續性而不是一次性的這個狀態"},{"start":182.314,"end":196.746,"text":"所以我不知道我這樣提醒部長有沒有認同我認同好謝謝那再來我就再繼續討論就是說剛才我們很感謝那個我們認養台東的莊岳雄總站委員說國民黨要求"},{"start":200.269,"end":213.675,"text":"他用騙的方式把12桶的55加侖的核廢料大罐頭丟在蘭嶼但是呢 民進黨政府也不能只有甜言蜜語我原住民也說你好小白浪"},{"start":216.837,"end":229.272,"text":"105年8月1號蔡英文總統特別代表政府向蘭嶼亞美族人道歉說過去的政府在他們不知情的情況下將核廢料存放在蘭嶼"},{"start":232.295,"end":257.191,"text":"當然在109年6月的時候呢本席也特別陪同了我們現在的賴清德總統也是時任的副總統特別到前往蘭嶼像這個我們去關心了地方的建設文化還有這個醫療我們特別去看了這個衛生所好像時署長那時候也有去嗎也有去那時候陣容還蠻龐大的"},{"start":262.794,"end":289.382,"text":"當時特別亞美族大家非常尊敬的一位棋老他們稱作是資政他向賴清德總統表示就是說希望當地的醫療要加強當地的醫療資源我們的賴清德總統也跟他講回應說我們來其實政府就是要來解決問題的"},{"start":290.902,"end":306.113,"text":"所以才會有後續我們大家歷經了幾位部長還有我們相關各部門大家不斷的在討論說我們要怎麼樣來加強蘭嶼的醫療資源然後怎麼樣來蓋這個就是說來擴大這個衛生所的量能然後來蓋怎麼樣擴大要怎麼蓋這個醫療院所"},{"start":317.44,"end":326.448,"text":"我有看你們的紀錄你們也是很認真在討論只不過是最近就突然慢下來了所以今天前天我還特別打電話致電給這個新上任的吳清美鄉長我說請教她說如果我們到衛福部到這個蘭嶼"},{"start":338.558,"end":344.344,"text":"就特別在這個衛生所這個附近那一塊地那15塊地那邊把它蓋這個醫療院所你們反應怎麼樣有沒有諮商同意權的問題哇那鄉長突然那個語調高八度他說"},{"start":355.257,"end":383.909,"text":"我們非常的期待非常的歡迎廂長資商統一權是公所要辦理的啦所以如果廂長都這麼講了這有什麼問題那現在的問題就是我要來請教你們就是說你們的這個興建計畫到底什麼時候要提出因為提出之後還要抱怨這都需要時間的因為這個整個事情已經討論了六年了所以我請教部長"},{"start":385.151,"end":406.974,"text":"你今年可以提出嗎?新建計畫剛剛你有答應專委員說今年可以提出我想我們從108年看布裡面就針對這個一直在評估那中間也碰到土地轉移原來在某一塊那不行又轉移到衛生所這一塊那衛生所這一塊上面也有"},{"start":410.676,"end":435.321,"text":"所以當時我們是想說土地那個的問題那土地的問題如果能夠解決我想我們應該原來的規劃我覺得你們要回去講那個土地怎麼樣我就會覺得這落入一個雞生蛋蛋生雞的那個陷阱啦其實不管怎麼樣我都覺得你們同步去準備你不報這個興建計畫你怎麼"},{"start":437.401,"end":451.642,"text":"有錢去採購那個土地要怎麼去辦理所以我也我們如果先不去講那個細節啦我就問我就問說你的興建計畫你什麼時候提出嘛"},{"start":453.666,"end":482.348,"text":"跟委員報告我們其實一直都是往在我們讓那個蘭嶼的醫療的量能夠增加也增加他的醫療的使用的空間因為現在看起來在這個部分裡面衛生署的功能其實已經到一個瓶頸那我們當然現在因為等於我們要抱一個貢獻計畫就是第一個要土地取得第二個就是說我們要知道說當地的需求是什麼醫師科別然後裡面還有因為他最主要地方這邊也跟我們提過說他要把衛生所"},{"start":482.908,"end":500.451,"text":"還有他的長照站要合在剛剛提到的這些也都沒有問題啊現在難得有園民會啦縣政府啦公所大家都非常的配合就差你們什麼時候要提出抱怨嘛"},{"start":501.352,"end":512.02,"text":"對啊 你說那麼多我們會跟地方這邊你們前面不是剛剛我剛剛有坐在下面聽啊你們答應那個莊委員說今年會送出來嘛他有講他也提醒你們說我等一下上來我會追問幾月"},{"start":514.253,"end":534.253,"text":"我們趕快了解 趕快了解 針對需求我們來提問我覺得你們在大小眼啊 剛剛跟莊委員講說今年會送出嘛我就問一下幾月而已 你連今年會送出的答案你都捨不得給我是因為他比較兇嗎 還是怎麼樣"},{"start":537.54,"end":547.613,"text":"我們今年底以前送出來好了今年底以前送出 那所以今年底幾月份你十月可以嗎 十月已經是年底了"},{"start":549.091,"end":577.179,"text":"因為那個院還要核定嘛還需要時間因為前面已經等你們很久了我們計劃院我們趕快去了解整個醫療需求然後那個土地的狀況我們趕快再十月好不好我們抓十月份那也留兩個月給行政院去讓他們趕快我們趕看看今年能不能給他核定嘛"},{"start":578.289,"end":601.4,"text":"好 我們10位來寫出計畫拜託了那所以就是說剛剛那個土地我知道你們有那個兩筆占用嘛還有一筆那個私人的我想那個費用應該也沒有很高啦而且齁我現在要講一下就我再替大家問一下就那你們那個預算編列喔傳輸規模大概是怎麼樣可以講一下嗎"},{"start":603.949,"end":619.745,"text":"委員報告因為這個部分還沒有跟我們像蘭嶼或是我們台東衛生區這邊談他們的需求所以我們會加緊腳步來跟他們談那需要多少的當然我們按照一些設施標準還有當地的所以現在不能講是不是那床數能不能講你們的規劃理想中"},{"start":621.697,"end":643.847,"text":"當時我們是大概有預估是20床啦你還蠻誠實的 20床我有聽說 因為我本來有聽到35這個數字後來了解說15床是洗腎用的所以你還蠻老實的那20床就很夠用了嗎這個是大概預估到比如說幾年還是我們要有遠見一點有沒有要未雨綢繆"},{"start":645.308,"end":672.95,"text":"因為不只蘭嶼的居民嘛因為那個我舉個例子啦我剛才一直在講那個這個屏東就是恆春那個旅遊醫院重建醫療大樓這件事情那當時的那個蘇貞昌院長我真的很佩服他他就很霸氣的講說我們當地五萬居民但是你不能用五萬的量能去看因為他還有四百萬人次的這個"},{"start":674.771,"end":683.996,"text":"遊客後來他拍板定案用600萬的規模去看600萬人次的規模去看那一樣啊這邊床數以這個你們專業但是有遠見的評估20床夠不夠"},{"start":691.622,"end":709.125,"text":"你不一定要今天給我答案我也不敢講我就請你們就是說要有遠見的去規劃那即便你如果說有把握說他們都不會碰壁我會把他照顧得好好的你甚實傳我也沒有意見但是那不可能啦"},{"start":710.829,"end":724.526,"text":"我們會一一需求所以我覺得這個預算的編列是一個態度的問題我們真的很羨慕很羨慕就是說有這樣的一個院長要蓋幾間便衣在他的家鄉"},{"start":726.008,"end":744.012,"text":"我現在只是做立法委員 我沒有當院長 不然我就會拍板訂案說你要蘭嶼蓋醫院 我要人給人 我要錢給錢經費無上限 這都是蘇貞昌院長以前講過的話我也希望說那個部長你有這樣子的豪氣 後來可能可以做議長這樣好不好"},{"start":749.073,"end":772.087,"text":"我們一定會努力來符合因為我們去思考這個經費要怎麼樣的匡列你可以這樣子想像就是說不要多我如果一桶55加侖的核廢料放在你家旁邊就好或者你家裡面你覺得政府要給你多少錢才能夠補償你你這樣去想一想"},{"start":773.562,"end":800.473,"text":"對不對可能你一毛錢都不想要因為健康無價嘛所以這個有時候預算無上限也合理啦好那再來我就請教你們在這個部長的心目中就是說這樣的規劃你希望什麼時候可以動工啟用我們總要有一個目標啊不然永遠都會講說土地怎麼樣啦然後預算怎麼樣啊對不對"},{"start":803.12,"end":826.321,"text":"可以規劃一下嗎?我們要有願景跟委員報告因為這個部分我們會報行政院那行政院這邊就是他們的公建計畫是有他們一定的流程所以我是說我們先不要就是說我們不要糾結在那邊啦我們要完成這件功德無量的事情"},{"start":827.492,"end":847.021,"text":"你的人生理想規劃中在我們過去在蓋部立院大概都要兩年到三年啦這個部分因為等於是裡面還要有一些所謂的細部計畫那我可以從今年開始往後算三年嗎應該經費還沒有下來因為這個要報行政院行政院這邊會有那我是說你要有願景啊"},{"start":848.612,"end":862.684,"text":"不然那個今年你們那個五六月大概衛福部又要報要準備明年的這個規劃那個預算的規劃嘛對不對你要有願景嘛不然你怎麼弄你們都老鳥了要用公正計劃我知道啦你不用抓個時程嗎"},{"start":873.939,"end":895.815,"text":"就是你總是有計劃嘛我現在講的很簡單的事情現在我在問你的理想上我沒有說你也不是院長我不可能我明天還會問院長啦所以院長說什麼時候他說了算我現在是問你的計劃你的規劃嘛院長一定會問你啊你要講出一個答案讓他參考啊"},{"start":897.057,"end":910.453,"text":"不然遙遙無期 如果說公建計畫在那邊核准大概就要三年我們在過去的醫院的經驗是這樣順利的話就是三年我想就是說很壓縮我們給自己很有壓力的我們努力"},{"start":912.975,"end":937.847,"text":"來達成這個事那我們就是大概預估三年的時間那我這樣也知道我明天跟院長對話的時候我也可以很清楚知道怎麼跟他討價還價給他設定一個期程所以我想就是說我們今天大家可以了解這樣的一個願景我們一直有持續在推動那"},{"start":939.113,"end":945.604,"text":"也最後就是要提醒再回頭講最前面那個健檢那個事情我覺得那個是政府的疏忽"},{"start":947.388,"end":973.485,"text":"我們核廢料並沒有馬上要給人家移走還不曉得要放多久搞不好這輩子就都一直放在那邊所以給人家提供的那個健檢我覺得也不能只是一次性所以那個核廢料的健康風險我也希望說這個部分能夠納入這個醫院的功能然後要設置長期的健康監測的機制都是要有的"},{"start":973.925,"end":999.113,"text":"好那另外要提醒最後要提醒就是說畢竟我們在這個醫院醫療院所啦我想醫療院所這樣比較好一點在完成之前起碼要有三年的時間那在這個完成之前這中間我們是不是可以做點什麼有什麼樣的機制可以補強這中間的的一個空白"},{"start":1000.234,"end":1015.511,"text":"還有過去彌補這個健檢的不足所以這個部分你們是不是可以一併來快速的這個部分三年的這個配套機制可能就不是要讓你考慮很久你是不是可以在兩個月內提出來"},{"start":1016.672,"end":1032.098,"text":"這個沒有問題我想我們今天要求大概是這樣我想蘭嶼的居民也包括我的族人我們的陽美族人也在那邊其實真的受了非常多的委屈"},{"start":1033.258,"end":1055.159,"text":"那我今天必須要講不管是過去的政黨誰很夭壽但是今天是民進黨執政我們不能只有說好聽的話我們要有具體的行動去實現去顧到他們的這個醫療平權這個很重要的一個權利我們大家一起努力 謝謝我們會努力 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":825,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時10分）謝謝主席，麻煩請邱部長，還有林慶豐執行長及社家署的組長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。等一下，不好意思，你是？照護司，抱歉！"],["邱部長泰源：照護司副司長。"],["陳委員瑩：社家署先坐一下，照護司陳副司長，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員瑩：部長，我先請教，你大概多久健檢一次？"],["邱部長泰源：兩年。"],["陳委員瑩：兩年，還可以！執行長呢？"],["林執行長慶豐：也是兩年。"],["陳委員瑩：副司長呢？"],["陳副司長青梅：也是兩年。"],["陳委員瑩：你們都還蠻標準的，我這樣請教，如果你們住在10萬桶核廢料旁邊，你們覺得你要多久健檢一次？"],["邱部長泰源：10萬桶的核廢料旁邊？"],["陳委員瑩：對，你這輩子。"],["邱部長泰源：可能每天都會有點緊張。"],["陳委員瑩：會想要多健檢幾次嗎？還是標準就好了？"],["邱部長泰源：一定會想要頻率高一點嘛！"],["陳委員瑩：我再請教從1982年核廢料貯存在蘭嶼，政府幫蘭嶼居民健檢幾次？"],["邱部長泰源：這個數目有沒有……"],["陳委員瑩：你如果兩年一次的話，或者我說政府應該要幫忙他們健檢幾次，但卻健檢了幾次。"],["林執行長慶豐：我跟委員報告，107、108年有針對全蘭嶼……"],["陳委員瑩：對，沒錯！"],["林執行長慶豐：對，就是有做……"],["陳委員瑩：我知道你講的是蘭嶼居民健康檢查專案計畫，對不對？107年11月14號到108年3月12號，就是這麼短的時間，幾個月而已，而且看起來是一次性。核廢料是長期貯存在蘭嶼，但是我們政府對於蘭嶼居民的健檢卻像是一夜情，過了就沒了。剛剛部長點出一個很重要的事情，核廢料是長期貯存在蘭嶼，你如果住在旁邊，你也會想要多健檢幾次，對不對？頻率想要高一點嘛！所以我們政府對於蘭嶼居民的健康風險監測，應該是持續性，而不是一次性的狀態。我不知道我這樣提醒，部長有沒有認同？"],["邱部長泰源：我認同。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。再來我就再繼續討論，剛才我們很感謝認養臺東的莊瑞雄（雄讚）委員說：國民黨夭壽喔！他用騙的方式把10萬桶55加侖的核廢料大罐頭丟在蘭嶼。但是民進黨政府也不能只有甜言蜜語，不然我們原住民會說你是「嘐潲白浪」。105年8月1號蔡英文總統特別代表政府向蘭嶼雅美族人道歉，說過去的政府在他們不知情的情況下，將核廢料存放在蘭嶼。當然在109年6月的時候，本席特別陪同了現在的賴清德總統，也是時任的副總統特別前往蘭嶼，像我們去關心了地方的建設、文化還有醫療，我們特別去看了衛生所，好像石署長那時候也有去嗎？"],["石署長崇良：有。"],["陳委員瑩：也有去。那時候陣容還蠻龐大的，當時特別是雅美族大家非常尊敬的一位耆老，他們稱作是資政，他向賴清德總統表示，希望加強當地的醫療資源。賴清德總統也跟他回應說我們來，其實政府就是要來解決問題的，所以才會有後續歷經了幾位部長，還有相關各部門大家不斷地在討論，要怎麼樣加強蘭嶼的醫療資源？怎麼樣擴大衛生所的量能？怎麼蓋醫療院所？我有看你們的紀錄，你們也是很認真在討論，只不過最近就突然慢下來了嘛！所以前天我還特別致電給新上任的吳清美鄉長，我就請教他說如果衛福部到蘭嶼，特別在衛生所附近的15塊地那邊蓋醫療院所，你們的反應怎麼樣，有沒有諮商同意權的問題？哇！鄉長突然語調高八度，多高興咧！他說他們非常的期待、非常的歡迎！諮商同意權是公所要辦理的，所以如果鄉長都這麼講了，這有什麼問題？現在的問題就是我要來請教你們，你們的興建計畫到底什麼時候要提出？提出之後還要報院，這都需要時間的。因為整個事情已經討論了6年，所以我請教部長，你今年可以提出興建計畫嗎？剛剛你有答應莊委員說今年可以提出。"],["邱部長泰源：我們從108年部裡面就針對這個一直在評估，中間也碰到土地轉移，原來在某一塊，不行以後轉移到衛生所這一塊，衛生所這一塊上面也有私地嘛！"],["陳委員瑩：對，一塊而已，小小的。"],["邱部長泰源：所以當時我們是想說土地的問題，那土地的問題如果能夠解決，我想我們應該原來規劃的興建計畫……"],["陳委員瑩：你們要回頭講土地怎麼樣，我就會覺得這落入一個雞生蛋、蛋生雞的陷阱。其實不管怎麼樣，我都覺得你們同步去準備，你不報興建計畫，你怎麼有錢去採購土地、怎麼去辦理？"],["邱部長泰源：執行長要不要報告一下現在的計畫？"],["陳委員瑩：我們先不去講細節，我就問你的興建計畫什麼時候提出嘛？"],["林執行長慶豐：跟委員報告，我們其實一直都是讓蘭嶼的醫療量能能夠增加，也增加它醫療的使用空間，因為現在看起來在這個部分裡面，衛生所的功能其實已經到瓶頸，現在等於我們要報一個公建計畫，就是第一個要土地取得。第二個就是，我們要知道當地的需求是什麼，醫師、科別，然後裡面……還有最主要是地方也跟我們提過，他要把衛生所還有長照站合在剛剛提到的……"],["陳委員瑩：這些也都沒有問題啊！"],["林執行長慶豐：是，我們就是要跟地方……"],["陳委員瑩：現在難得原民會、縣政府、公所等大家都非常的配合，就差你們什麼時候要提出報院嘛！你說那麼多……"],["林執行長慶豐：我們會跟地方這邊……"],["陳委員瑩：你們前面不是……我剛剛有坐在下面聽，你們答應莊委員說今年會送出來嘛！他也提醒你們說，等一下我上來會追問幾月。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們趕快……"],["陳委員瑩：你前面講的，我不要聽，我就問幾月？"],["邱部長泰源：該了解趕快了解，針對需求我們來提出……"],["陳委員瑩：不是，我覺得你們在大小眼，剛剛跟莊委員說今年會送出，我就問一下幾月而已，你連今年會送出的答案都捨不得給我，是因為他比較兇嗎？還是怎麼樣？"],["邱部長泰源：我們今年底以前送出來。"],["陳委員瑩：今年底以前送出，所以今年底是幾月份？10月可以嗎？10月也算年底了嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：10月……"],["陳委員瑩：院還要核定嘛！還需要時間，因為前面已經等你們很久了，監察院什麼都討論很久了。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們趕快去了解整個醫療需求，然後土地的狀況，我們趕快在……"],["陳委員瑩：我給你們一個目標好不好？10月好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["陳委員瑩：我們抓10月份，也留兩個月給行政院讓他們趕快……我們趕看看今年能不能核定嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們10月寫出計畫。"],["陳委員瑩：拜託！剛剛那個土地我知道有兩筆占用，還有一筆私人的，我想費用應該也沒有很高，而且我現在要講一下，我再替大家要問一下你們預算編列、床數規模大概是怎麼樣，可以講一下嗎？"],["林執行長慶豐：跟委員報告，這個部分因為還沒有跟蘭嶼或是臺東衛生局談他們的需求，所以我們會加緊腳步來跟他們談，需要多少的……當然我們按照一些設施標準還有當地的……"],["陳委員瑩：所以現在不能講，是不是？床數能不能講？你們理想中的規劃。"],["林執行長慶豐：當時我們大概預估是20床。"],["陳委員瑩：你還蠻誠實的，20床，我有聽說……我本來有聽到35這個數字，後來了解，15床是洗腎用的，所以你還蠻老實的，但是20床就很夠用了嗎？這個是大概預估到比如幾年，還是我們要有遠見一點，有沒有要未雨綢繆？因為不只蘭嶼的居民嘛！我舉個例子，我剛才一直在講，恆春旅遊醫院重建醫療大樓這件事情，當時的蘇貞昌院長，我真的很佩服他，他就很霸氣講說我們當地有5萬居民，但是不能用5萬的量能去看，因為它還有400萬人次的遊客，後來他拍板定案，用600萬人次的規模去看。一樣，這邊的床數，以你們專業但是有遠見的評估，20床夠不夠？你不一定要今天給我答案，我也不敢講，我就請你們要有遠見地去規劃……"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["陳委員瑩：你如果有把握他們都不會生病，你會把他們照顧得好好的，你剩10床我也沒有意見，但是那不可能啦！"],["邱部長泰源：我們會因應需求。"],["陳委員瑩：對，所以我覺得預算的編列是一個態度的問題，我們真的很羨慕，很羨慕有這樣的一個院長，要蓋一間醫院在他的家鄉。我現在只是做立法委員，我沒有當院長，不然我就會拍板定案說：你要蘭嶼蓋醫院，我要人給人、我要錢給錢，經費無上限。這都是蘇貞昌院長以前講過的話，我也希望部長有這樣子的豪氣，以後可能可以當院長，這樣好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定會努力來符合蘭嶼的……"],["陳委員瑩：對，因為我們去思考這個經費要怎麼樣匡列，你可以這樣子想像，就是不要多，如果一桶55加侖的核廢料放在你家旁邊或者你家裡面，你覺得政府要給你多少錢才能夠補償你？你這樣去想一想，對不對？可能你一毛錢都不想要，因為健康無價嘛！所以有時候預算無上限也合理啦！","再來我就請教，在部長的心目中，這樣的規劃你希望什麼時候可以動工、啟用？我們總要有一個目標，不然永遠都會說土地怎麼樣，然後預算怎麼樣，對不對？可以規劃一下嗎？我們要有願景。"],["林執行長慶豐：跟委員報告，因為這個部分我們會報行政院，行政院的公建計畫有他們一定的流程，這個計畫……"],["陳委員瑩：這個我都理解啊！所以我是說我們先不要糾結在那邊，我們要完成這件功德無量的事情，在你的人生理想規劃中，你覺得什麼時候……"],["林執行長慶豐：照我們過去蓋部立醫院的經驗，差不多都要兩年到三年。"],["陳委員瑩：是。"],["林執行長慶豐：這個部分等於裡面還有一些所謂的細部計畫，還有一個前期計畫……"],["陳委員瑩：我可以從今年開始往後算三年嗎？"],["林執行長慶豐：經費還沒有下來，因為這個要報行政院，行政院會有……"],["陳委員瑩：我知道啊！我是說你要有願景，不然……"],["林執行長慶豐：委員，我們往這邊努力。"],["陳委員瑩：今年5、6月大概衛福部又要準備明年的預算規劃，對不對？你要有願景，不然你怎麼弄？你們都老鳥了。"],["邱部長泰源：這個要用公建計畫。"],["陳委員瑩：我知道啦！你不用抓個時辰嗎？你總是有計畫嘛！我現在講的是很簡單的事情，我要問你的理想上，我沒有說……你也不是院長，我不可能……我明天還會問院長啦！院長說什麼時候是他說了算，我現在是問你的計畫、你的規劃，院長一定會問你，你要講出一個答案讓他參考，不然遙遙無期耶！"],["林執行長慶豐：跟委員報告，公建計畫核准大概都要三年，以我們過去蓋醫院的經驗是這樣。"],["陳委員瑩：順利的話就是三年？"],["林執行長慶豐：對。"],["陳委員瑩：我想就是很壓縮，我們給自己很有壓力的，我們努力來達成這個事，大概預估三年的時間，這樣我明天跟院長對話的時候，我也可以很清楚地知道怎麼跟他討價還價，給他設定一個期程，今天大家可以了解這樣的一個願景，我們一直有持續在推動。","最後要提醒最前面講到健檢的事情，我覺得那個是政府的疏忽，核廢料並沒有馬上要移走，還不曉得要放多久，搞不好這輩子都一直放在那邊，所以給人家提供的健檢，我覺得也不能只是一次性，所以核廢料的健康風險，我也希望這個部分能夠納入醫院的功能，然後要設置長期健康監測的機制，這都是要有的。","另外最後要提醒的是，畢竟我們在醫療院所，我講醫療院所這樣比較好一點，在完成之前起碼要有三年的時間，在完成之前，這中間我們是不是可以做點什麼？有什麼樣的機制可以補強這中間的空白，還有彌補過去健檢的不足？這個部分你們是不是可以一併快速地……這個部分三年的配套機制，可能不是要讓你考慮很久。你是不是可以在兩個月內提出來？"],["邱部長泰源：這個沒有問題。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我們今天的要求大概是這樣，我想蘭嶼的居民，也包括我的族人，我們的雅美族人也在那邊，其實真的受了非常多的委屈。我今天必須要講，不管是過去的政黨誰很「夭壽」，但是今天是民進黨執政，我們不能只有說好聽的話，我們要有具體的行動去實現，去顧到他們的醫療平權，這個很重要的一個權利，我們大家一起努力，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：是，我們會努力，謝謝。"],["主席：本日會議詢答全部結束，委員涂權吉、陳菁徽所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員涂權吉書面質詢：","《病人自主權利法》自2019年1月上路至今已逾五年，截至2025年4月底，僅約10萬3千人完成預立醫療決定（AD）簽署，簽署率僅占全國20歲以上人口約0.45%。此數據反映，法案在推動與落實層面明顯不足，難以實現原本「尊重病人自主」的立法目的。","目前國內ACP（預立醫療照護諮商）費用普遍為自費制，價格落在每人每次2,000至3,700元間，依場域與專業人力不同而有落差。由於價格高昂且缺乏統一規範，對多數民眾而言構成實質負擔，亦嚴重影響參與意願。同時，目前可提供諮商的醫療場域仍以大醫院為主，長照機構與護理之家尚未全面納入，限制了制度的普及與落地。","更關鍵的是，即使簽署了預立醫療決定，臨床實施率仍偏低。立委王育敏的修正版本指出，現行法律未明確保障「已簽署者之意願優先性」，導致患者失去意識後，家屬主張往往凌駕於病人原先意願之上，使得醫療團隊進退兩難。對此，已有朝野委員提出修法版本，建議增訂「關係人不得妨礙醫療機構依病人預立醫療決定之作為」等條文，確保病人意願可被落實。衛福部應正視目前制度推行與執行落差問題，主動提出修正草案，並檢討諮商費用補助、場域擴增與執行機制設計，回應民眾對善終自主的期待。","另一方面，醫護人力流失問題已構成公共醫療隱憂。據台灣護師醫療產業工會統計，今年前4個月已有1,302名護理師離職，單是3月即達548人，創下近五年新高。更有護理師不待年終獎金即提前離職，反映制度性疲乏與工作負荷沉重。日前，總統賴清德已提出「不同工不同酬」政策，期以調整薪資結構改善人力流失問題。台北榮總與新光醫院已率先響應，分別調升住院醫師獎勵與輪三班護理師薪資。衛福部應全面掌握各醫院調薪與獎勵政策實施情況，主動規劃擴大夜班補貼，以及相關津貼，並研議將「醫護人員留任率」納入醫院評鑑指標，促使制度朝穩定與永續發展。"],["委員陳菁徽書面質詢：","一、我國自2019年施行《病人自主權利法》，旨在保障病人於失去意識前即能表達醫療意願。然而，截至目前簽署預立醫療決定書（Advance Directives, AD）者僅約10萬3千人，簽署率僅約0.45%。即便完成簽署，實際執行率仍偏低，主因在於現行法律未明文規範應優先依循病人本人的意願，導致病人失去意識時，家屬意見與病人可能產生分歧，甚至與醫療團隊產生衝突，嚴重影響制度落實。有鑑於此，請衛生福利部於兩個月內，就以下三項重點提出具體回應及修法建議：","1.放寬「預立醫療照護諮商（ACP）」之補助經費與執行場域；","2.明確規範關係人不得妨礙醫療機構依病人預立醫療決定行事；","3.彙整立法院各版本修法內容與精神，提出《病人自主權利法》修正草案。","二、我國急診醫療人力危機日益嚴峻。據統計，近四個月已有逾1,300名護理人員離職，其中2025年3月單月即高達548人，創下自2020年以來新高紀錄。近期又傳出台大醫院要求護理人員進行非本職業務（如捕鼠）以維護院內環境，顯示醫療現場資源配置與職務分工已出現結構性問題。","針對此情況，行政院長卓榮泰已於上週答應，將責成衛生福利部於一個月內盤點全國醫療院所，是否有護理人員從事非本職工作，並檢討相關制度與資源配置。","為落實此項承諾，請衛生福利部於一週內提出具體盤點方式，包括問卷設計內容、是否納入非主管之工會代表等意見，並同步說明目前盤點進度，確保如質如期完成行政院長交辦任務，回應第一線醫護人員的實際需求。"],["主席：現在作以下決議：第一、說明及詢答完畢。第二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關兩週內以書面答復；委員另要求期限者，從其所定。第三、病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案等三案另擇期繼續審查。","本次會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（13時27分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","莊瑞雄","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳培瑜","楊曜","陳瑩","涂權吉","陳菁徽"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；二、委員劉建國等\n16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利\n法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00007"}}},{"id":"160912","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160912","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc0c0b954b7b2c64330f84b180731b6d6416503c30100658372263c0903a4778e8e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"12:57:54 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主席請一下邱部長請邱部長委員好部長好部長我先確認幾個問題因為我們病人自主潛力法上路那麼久了台灣簽署的人數未達1%"},{"start":34.765,"end":58.798,"text":"到底最主要的原因是什麼當然我們這個原因應該是有多重因素那當然過去的調查會顯現說因為他的費用比較費用的因素是一個因素但是是不是一個絕對的因素在有待觀察這樣子"},{"start":59.821,"end":85.471,"text":"好那我就先講費用,因為部長講到費用是健保不給付對不對?從去年開始7月...住院的,那5月又擴展到65歲上的一個多重疾病我是這樣子建議啦齁,我向來主張"},{"start":91.848,"end":115.208,"text":"把錢花在前端上像我覺得預防醫學多花一點錢後續的醫療支出就減少那也一樣就是疫力醫療可以減少以後很多無益無效的醫療所以我是主張盡量放寬"},{"start":118.973,"end":134.957,"text":"免費的健保給付的對象這個是我的主張第二個問題就是好像是劉金國委員的資料通常是對的所以假如說預約要立醫療"},{"start":140.937,"end":157.507,"text":"醫療簽署必須要那麼久的時間會不會也是影響簽署人數的一個很重要的因素部長覺得會不會因為他是預約還是預約得上所以到底"},{"start":160.635,"end":185.337,"text":"過去研究裡面等候時間比較沒有在前面幾名前面幾名大概有兩大因素一個是費用一個是民眾認知就是醫院的問題這是兩大因素其他的以等候時間這邊的話有出現過可是它並沒有在前面所以它可能是一個影響因素可能不是主要影響因素以上就是說對於"},{"start":186.698,"end":210.296,"text":"疫力醫療決定的認知可能是一個因素對不對然後費用是一個因素那費用剛才我們講過了那有關疫力醫療的認知的問題還是要加強宣導因為我覺得像我個人就還蠻支持大家都去做疫力醫療的因為這個可以避免很多困擾"},{"start":213.749,"end":241.887,"text":"那假如說是真的也有部分的地區是必須要等候很久才能夠看到門診我想要請教一個問題就是我們簽署屹立醫療的時候呢是必須要我先問好了屹立醫療的簽署到底是不是醫療行為"},{"start":245.575,"end":260.99,"text":"你到底是不是醫療行為?簽AD這個動作簽署這個鉤嘛 簽名這個應該不算醫療行為啦石川署長說不算那不算醫療行為"},{"start":264.145,"end":285.019,"text":"那我問一下,因為簽署的時候我們必須要有醫師、護理師、心理諮商師、社工等等我想問一下醫師到底在醫療的時候他的角色是什麼?他扮演什麼角色?"},{"start":286.906,"end":295.479,"text":"部長你懂我的問題嗎?我想這個辦法是過去定出來的啦,也不是我每天找的那我現在,以我的個人經驗來講"},{"start":303.971,"end":319.107,"text":"說實在在開辦,譬如說某個醫院,像台大醫院在開辦這個諮商門診也是我們幫忙去設立的,當然我也會去看幾次裡面的角色醫師,因為他有兩大類,一個是說維持生命的治療"},{"start":321.472,"end":338.152,"text":"第二就是人工的營養輸益所以我現在一個民眾我同意到時候不用維持生命治療他一定會問你這是什麼東西"},{"start":340.102,"end":364.732,"text":"那你當然就會跟他講說這包括鴨胸啊那這個可能是護理師就可以像我啦 保定沒關係我也不想佔用太多時間因為我們現在是修法的大體詢問所以我是說大家想一想看要怎麼讓醫療更"},{"start":369.494,"end":389.043,"text":"更可見性提高一點啦我覺得應該是很多人都會因為現在的人就是人生終須一別嘛那假如可以自己做決定的時候到我有法定的"},{"start":392.501,"end":420.616,"text":"規定的事項成就的時候我可以自己做決定這個我想很多人接受啦我們看透過這一次的修法能不能讓更多的人願意願意參與的人很方便就參與那不知道資訊的人讓他知道資訊好不好其他我們大概就是修法的時候再來做討論啦我還是要講一個健保的問題"},{"start":425.048,"end":431.195,"text":"部長,總統拋出了健保不同工不同酬的想法,不准你入場是怎樣?"},{"start":432.929,"end":446.815,"text":"我想我支持啊應該那個有許比較手術比較複雜的我大力支持而且我覺得風險醫療糾紛的風險越高的科別報酬也要不投我覺得我們不應該再放任讓五大皆空"},{"start":460.02,"end":486.534,"text":"就是說不能夠所有的給付都一樣然後醫師的人員每年控款一千三然後讓這些人自由選擇科別那比較高風險工作繁重然後必須要緊急的像急診"},{"start":488.448,"end":504.344,"text":"讓這些科別一直沒有人投入這個對於台灣高齡化發展趨勢這麼迅速的社會是很危險的一個現象這個你們能不能趕快把它定出來"},{"start":505.598,"end":524.011,"text":"有啊,一直在努力,要不要市長報告我們謝謝委員關心,確實這個我們今年先從急重症開始所以急診的診察費啦,還有護理費啊急性一般病床ICU,這些我們都先調高,今年一共預注42億"},{"start":525.652,"end":554.896,"text":"那另外接下來這個產科也是從今天5月1號開始夜間假日出來執行業務也加成30%所以這個都是相對風險高投入心力辛勞的接下來還有兒童重症那我們逐科逐科的會去討論調整現在你們調整的方向就是只有就內外婦兒急診的部分來做提高嗎"},{"start":555.556,"end":574.094,"text":"目前是這樣但是之後還會一直每一個外科啊什麼都是會拉近我的意思是有的要提高有的要減少這個沒有什麼好迴避的我大概也不怕被罵因為我覺得台灣的社會不應該發展成這個樣子"},{"start":579.092,"end":596.929,"text":"我今天因為我也不想再用太多時間下一次有機會的時候我們再來看看到底為什麼醫學系出來的時候是不是我們在分科的時候就必須要做控管"},{"start":598.53,"end":611.643,"text":"補充你聽我的意思嗎這個都有空管啊都有空管只是依照這個國家的需求只是後來受過內外負額的專科醫師跑去做其他的業務"},{"start":614.069,"end":635.523,"text":"是不是這樣子不是 部長假如講說我們現在就是在分科的時候就已經有比例的分配這個我是不知道 假如有那就表示有一些人他是受外科的訓練可是他可能去開假醫有時候有那個容額給他問題是遭不到足額遭不到足額"},{"start":639.591,"end":657.014,"text":"就是學生不願意台大外科只有20個跟R2的學生在理工就17個不是 我的意思是說我們也必須要從這裡就做控管因為我覺得這十幾年來我們對這個問題就是"},{"start":666.769,"end":687.435,"text":"口號喊得太多可是實際做出來因應的措施太少這個對於台灣整體的社會跟國民的就義權益是一個很大的損害其他的因為我不大想再用太多時間其他的我們下次再做討論好 謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝市長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":771,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（12時58分）謝謝主席，請邱部長。"],["主席：好，請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。部長，我先確認幾個問題，我們病人自主權利法已經上路那麼久了，臺灣簽署的人數未達1%，到底最主要的原因是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：當然這個有多重的因素，從過去的調查顯現出費用是因素之一，但是不是一個絕對的因素還有待觀察。"],["楊委員曜：好，那我就先講費用，因為部長講到費用。健保不給付，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：從去年開始，7月……是住院的，5月又擴展到65歲以上重大疾病的。"],["楊委員曜：我是這樣子建議，我向來主張把錢花在前端上，像我覺得預防醫學多花一點錢，後續的醫療支出就減少，也一樣，預立醫療可以減少以後很多無益、無效的醫療，所以我是主張儘量放寬免費健保給付的對象，這個是我的主張。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["楊委員曜：第二個問題就是，劉建國委員的資料通常是對的，假如預約要預立醫療簽署必須要那麼久的時間，會不會也是影響簽署人數的一個很重要的因素？部長覺得會不會？"],["邱部長泰源：因為他要預約還是預約得上，所以到底……"],["劉司長越萍：過去的研究裡面，等候時間比較沒有在前面幾名，前面幾名大概有兩大因素，一個是費用，一個是民眾的認知，就是意願的問題……"],["楊委員曜：認知，對。"],["劉司長越萍：這是兩大因素，其他的，以等候時間這個來說是有出現過，可是它並沒有在前面，所以它可能是一個影響因素，但不是主要的影響因素。以上。"],["楊委員曜：對於預立醫療決定的認知可能是一個因素，對不對？然後費用是一個因素，費用剛才我們講過了，有關預立醫療的認知問題還是要加強宣導，像我個人就還滿支持大家都去做預立醫療的，因為這個可以避免很多困擾。假如是真的，也有部分的地區必須要等候很久才能夠看到門診。我想要請教一個問題，就是我們簽署預立醫療的時候必須要……我先問好了，預立醫療的簽署到底是不是醫療行為？"],["邱部長泰源：簽AD這個動作，簽署這個，勾嘛！然後簽名，這個應該不算醫療行為。"],["楊委員曜：署長說不算，那不算醫療行為。因為簽署的時候，我們必須要有醫師、護理師，然後心理諮商師、社工等等，我想問一下醫師在預立醫療的時候，他的角色到底是什麼，他扮演什麼角色？部長，你懂我的問題嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個辦法是過去定出來的啦，也不是我……"],["楊委員曜：對……"],["邱部長泰源：以我個人的經驗來講，因為說實在在開辦……譬如說像臺大醫院在開辦諮商門診，也是我們幫忙去設立的，當然我也會去看幾次裡面的角色，因為它有兩大類，一個是維持生命的治療，第二就是人工的營養輸液，這兩個嘛！所以現在一個民眾說我同意到時候不用維持生命治療，他一定會問你這是什麼東西，那你當然就會跟他說這包括壓胸、插管……"],["楊委員曜：這個可能護理師就可以？"],["邱部長泰源：護理師……"],["楊委員曜：部長，沒關係，我也不想占用太多時間，因為我們現在是修法的大體詢答嘛！所以我是說大家想一想，看要怎麼讓預立醫療的可近性提高一點。我覺得應該很多人都會……因為現在的人就是人生終須一別，假如可以自己決定的時候，到我有法定的規定事項成就的時候，我可以自己決定，這個我想很多人接受啦。我們看透過這一次的修法能不能讓更多的人、願意參與的人很方便參與，不知道資訊的人讓他知道資訊好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["楊委員曜：其他我們大概就是修法的時候再來討論。我還是要講一個健保的問題，部長，總統拋出了健保不同工不同酬的想法，部長的立場是怎樣？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我支持啊，尤其比較……"],["楊委員曜：你支持？"],["邱部長泰源：手術比較複雜的……"],["楊委員曜：我大力支持，而且我覺得……"],["邱部長泰源：我們現在也在做，一直在做。"],["楊委員曜：醫療糾紛的風險越高的科別，報酬也要不同。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["楊委員曜：我覺得我們不應該再放任讓五大皆空，不能夠所有的給付都一樣，醫師的人員每年控管1,300，讓這些人自由選擇科別，比較高風險、比較工作繁重然後必須要緊急的，像急診，讓這一些科別一直沒有人投入，這個對於臺灣高齡化發展趨勢這麼迅速的社會是很危險的一個現象，這個你們能不能趕快把它定出來？"],["邱部長泰源：有啊！一直在努力，要不要署長報告我們現在……"],["石署長崇良：謝謝委員關心，確實我們今年先從急重症開始，所以急診的診察費還有護理費、急性一般病床、ICU這些我們都先調高，今年一共挹注42億。另外接下來產科也是從5月1號開始，夜間、假日出來執行業務也加成30%，這個都是相對風險高、投入心力、辛勞的，接下來還有兒童重症，我們會逐科、逐科地討論調整。"],["楊委員曜：現在你們調整的方向，只有就內外婦兒急診的部分提高嘛！"],["石署長崇良：目前是這樣，但是之後還會一直每一個外科、什麼都會納進來。"],["楊委員曜：對，我的意思是有的要提高、有的要減少，這個沒有什麼好迴避的，我大概也不怕被罵，因為我覺得臺灣的社會不應該發展成這個樣子。我也不想占用太多時間，下一次有機會的時候，我們再來看看到底為什麼分……就是醫學系出來的時候，是不是我們在分科的時候就必須要控管，部長，你聽懂我的意思嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：有啊，這個都有控管啊！"],["楊委員曜：都有控管？"],["邱部長泰源：會依照國家的需求……"],["楊委員曜：只是後來受過內外婦兒的專科醫師跑去做其他的業務？是不是這樣子？"],["邱部長泰源：當然也是有。"],["楊委員曜：不是，部長假如說我們現在就是在分科的時候就已經有比例的分配……"],["邱部長泰源：有。"],["楊委員曜：這個我是不知道，假如有，那就表示有一些人，他是受外科的訓練，可是他可能去開家醫。"],["邱部長泰源：有時候有容額給他，問題是招不到足額啦！"],["楊委員曜：招不到足額？就是學生不願意……"],["邱部長泰源：對，像臺大外科招20個，到R2的時候，第2年就跑掉7個。"],["楊委員曜：不是，我的意思就是說我們也必須要從這裡就控管，因為我覺得這十幾年來，我們對這個問題就是口號喊得太多，可是實際做出來因應的措施太少，這個對於臺灣整體社會跟國民的就醫權益是一個很大的傷害。因為我不大想占用太多時間，其他的我們下次再討論……"],["邱部長泰源：我們努力……"],["楊委員曜：謝謝部長、謝謝署長、謝謝司長、謝謝主席。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：你還在占用，你也占用很久。","鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","涂權吉委員，涂權吉委員，涂權吉委員不在。","何欣純委員，何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","請陳瑩委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","莊瑞雄","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳培瑜","楊曜","陳瑩","涂權吉","陳菁徽"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；二、委員劉建國等\n16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利\n法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00007"}}},{"id":"160911","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160911","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc0a938359d33e1a676f84b180731b6d641c64ac1618a5937c6617c360b5c5c43e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:49:49 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組長吳安 我想快速跟您討論一下關於兒童托育服務法因為我知道現在修法在即 我想要先確認一下現在進度是已經送進院會了嗎下一張 委員好 我們科長好是科長 已經送進院會了嗎 關於兒童托育服務法行政院已經審查完畢了 那後續會走程序來送立法院好 所以看起來已經定案了嗎 那可能後續我們辦公室的很多研究可能只能在後續修法的"},{"start":56.093,"end":75.659,"text":"協商當中討論不過沒關係我還是要提出幾個觀點我不確定在你們現行的版本裡面我們其實看不到一些進度來第一個我們認為關於所謂的不適應保姆這件事情其實在之前的凱凱案的時候我們做了一些加長管理跟修法的部分那我認為可是還有更多優秀的保姆他需要被獎勵所以我今天會分兩個部分第一個是關於不當對待的處罰目前呢我們在你們的版本推育人員相關違反相關規定的版本裡面呢"},{"start":84.242,"end":101.519,"text":"有把这个违反的情节分成所谓违法情节重大或者是违法上非情节重大或者是违法情节轻微者我很好奇你们到时候要怎么定义这个东西是在相关执法或行政命令当中说明吗因为这个样态我认为非常的复杂"},{"start":102.643,"end":115.408,"text":"我們會訂相關的執法那另外針對調查人員會來做培訓好所以調查人員的培訓你們想像中什麼樣的人可以來幫這些調查人員上課什麼樣的專家學者哪一些領域的"},{"start":117.242,"end":127.974,"text":"有一些是法律專家也會有實務的工作者我們這邊會參考目前教育部在培訓教保人員的這些不當對待人員的調查人員的訓練來去做規劃好所以調查人員確定有培訓因為所謂調查人員是種子調查員之後他們就可以去做後續的調查對不對"},{"start":136.664,"end":161.685,"text":"好可是如果在現場第一時間的判斷的樣態非常複雜我認為我們行政機關還是要先主動的來想像這個樣態會是什麼當然因為現在修法在即我認為還有很多事情要討論我只是先做出善意的提醒好第二個我們看到現在很多保姆不當行為目前的處置辦法呢就是他有被抽檢到發現說他把小孩丟在家裡然後他就跑去買菜了或者是讓小孩趴睡"},{"start":162.085,"end":181.837,"text":"而目前這個抽檢的狀況呢他都只是留下一個記錄他也沒有辦法公開甚至我們也沒有把這個違法的我們以為是事情很小的這些違法的樣態呢做成對於這個保姆的評價的內容我認為這個很有問題那很多專家學者也已經提出建議我不知道你們後續在這件事上的態度是什麼"},{"start":183.578,"end":211.201,"text":"呃這個部分就像委員的簡報所看到我們在我們的耳朵法的第八條已經明定我們未來會以有針對托育服務的內容跟其他事項去訂定一個實施準則讓第一線還有我們的相關執法人員對於這個樣態的部分有更明確的一個那個認定沒錯就是你說這個實施準則可是我要說的是所謂好的服務樣態你們會寫嗎這個大家都會列可是哪些是不能踩的紅線我認為應該要寫清楚"},{"start":212.59,"end":231.618,"text":"我們會參考那個教育部目前的定法跟我們食物托嬰的食物的一個操作來去定這個執法或者是你們應該也要跟地方居托中心討論他們在過去收集相關的違法的案例當中有哪些樣態是你們認為身為主管機關所不能接受的我們也才可以跟一般人民交代可以嗎"},{"start":232.418,"end":238.644,"text":"好OK好很積極來再來我們講到獎勵的部分目前各縣市托育費用的調整狀況說實話22個縣市都不一樣"},{"start":243.317,"end":273.017,"text":"薪水呢状态也不一样加薪的幅度也不一样可是目前之所以会产生这个困境是因为这些保姆的薪资是由中央交给地方政府自行定定所以产生个限是落差很大有没有机会带回中央来讨论如何设定一个好的薪资集聚或者是调薪的逻辑跟原则让愿意留在这个产业照顾小孩的这些保姆们他们会觉得这件事情是有意义跟有价值的"},{"start":273.377,"end":286.625,"text":"像我自己現在服務的馬祖六年來一次都沒有漲可是高雄六年就調薪了三次那當然跟當地的物價水準有關也跟服務的樣態有關可是我認為我們中央還是要有一些態度不知道這件事情你怎麼看"},{"start":288.121,"end":316.823,"text":"我們在未來的托法已經會明訂有關保姆的收費項目的部分會由中央統一訂那收費的數額的部分因為還是考量到各地方政府他的物價指數等等的部分會由地方政府來去訂這個價格那我們之前也有透過相關的會議去要求各地方政府因為現行我們的管理辦法其實就有明訂地方政府要定期去依照狹內的物價指數去訂這個可是因為沒有他們沒有做到嘛所以"},{"start":318.904,"end":335.114,"text":"對所以後續所以我們剛剛有提到我們有在相關的聯繫會議要求地方政府要回到他們自己的托育委員會去檢視他們保姆的一個定價的一個合理性好我覺得要更積極啦好我們有相關辦法但是縣市政府如果不做我們好像也沒有辦法對不對"},{"start":336.075,"end":353.255,"text":"好 再来我们也希望可以建立优良保姆的奖励跟公开机制目前的平台上面我们可以查到的是所谓有证照的合法保姆可是我认为在过往我们都没有奖励所谓优秀的保姆这件事情有没有机会在未来的平台上可以注记所谓的优良保姆名单建立奖励机制"},{"start":354.396,"end":372.343,"text":"這個我們後續可以再跟地方政府再討論看什麼樣的一個資訊可以再揭露出來讓家長選擇好那要揭露資訊他就有搭配相關辦法所以我想後續這個都再來討論好最後一個家外安置的兒少受到居家托育的照顧目前我們要看到很多"},{"start":373.283,"end":390.564,"text":"被居家托育的孩子他可能就是原生家庭出了狀況嗎那你們目前現在做法呢不管他是到寄養家庭或者是安置機構他其實還會有居家托育的部分目前中央有訂定地方政府所謂運用居托人員照顧家外安置兒童處理的原則可是我們認為這個原則現在有些問題想要跟你們討論第一個"},{"start":393.727,"end":420.625,"text":"因为这些孩子都是身心受过伤的他的照顾难度比较高虽然居托的保姆有搭配相关的职能培训可是居托中心的仿事员并没有相关的职能跟培训所以比起所谓的儿少保社工我们认为这些仿事员缺乏所谓家外安置相关的评估照顾状况跟理解这个风险的能力所以我们也怀疑甚至我们担心很多转介单位"},{"start":424.207,"end":451.298,"text":"也就是原本這些身心受傷的孩子他就被評估為一般居家托育案件而不會完整的揭露所謂安置兒童跟原生家庭的資訊那我們如何考慮到這個被安置兒少的特殊性他不應該一體直接適用所謂居托寄有的規範這些事情聽起來有困難但是我認為在凱凱案身上我們應該要學到這個教訓所以我想問一下這件事情有沒有機會往下討論我們是直接建議修改處理原則的三四五"},{"start":453.764,"end":477.724,"text":"因為這個涉及到委員這邊有具體的一個修正的建議最後我們再跟委員辦公室再來做討論這麼多具體的建議我們希望可以在一個月內積極跟社家署展開相關會議討論雖然說你們說已經送到院會後續要走相關程序但我認為在後續修法會議當中我們看到現場所反映出來的狀況我們真的還是要改善入法好嗎好 謝謝社家署 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳培文委員的發言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時49分）好，謝謝主席，我可以直接請社家署的人員嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：社家署是哪一位？"],["陳委員培瑜：部長可以休息一下，但是還是要請部長聆聽，不用上臺沒關係。請社家署，謝謝。"],["主席：請李組長。"],["陳委員培瑜：組長午安。我想快速跟您討論一下關於兒童托育服務法，因為我知道現在修法在即，我想要先確認一下，現在進度是已經送進院會了嗎？"],["李組長育穎：委員好，我請我們科長說明。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。科長，兒童托育服務法的案子已經送進院會了嗎？"],["洪科長偉倫：行政院已經審查完畢了，後續會走程序來送立法院。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以看起來已經定案了，那我們辦公室的很多研究只能在後續修法的協商當中討論，不過沒關係，我還是要提出幾個觀點，因為我們在你們現行的版本裡面其實看不到一些進度。第一個，關於所謂的不適任保母這件事情，其實之前在發生剴剴案以後我們有做了一些加強管理跟修法的部分，可是我認為還有更多優秀的保母需要被獎勵，所以我今天會分兩個部分，第一個是關於不當對待的處罰，目前你們在托育人員違反相關規定的版本裡面有把違反的情節分成違法情節重大、違法尚非情節重大或者是違法情節輕微者，我很好奇你們到時候要怎麼定義這個東西，是在相關子法或行政命令當中說明嗎？因為我認為這個樣態非常的複雜。"],["洪科長偉倫：我們會定相關的子法，另外針對調查人員會來做培訓。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，關於調查人員的培訓，在你們想像中是什麼樣的人可以來幫這些調查人員上課？是哪一些領域的專家學者？"],["洪科長偉倫：有一些是法律的專家，也會有實務的工作者。我們會參考目前教育部對於教保人員有不當對待情形的調查人員培訓來規劃。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以確定有培訓所謂的種子調查員，之後他們就可以去做後續的調查，對不對？"],["洪科長偉倫：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，可是在現場第一時間要判斷的樣態非常複雜，我認為我們行政機關還是要先主動的來想像這個樣態會是什麼，當然，因為現在修法在即，我認為還有很多事情要討論，我只是先做出善意的提醒。","第二個，我們看到現在很多保母有不當行為，目前的處置辦法就是他有被抽檢並發現他把小孩丟在家裡然後就跑去買菜了，或者是讓小孩趴睡，而目前這個抽檢狀況都只是留下一個紀錄，沒有辦法公開，甚至我們認為事情很小所以沒有把這些違法的樣態做成對於這個保母評價的內容，我認為這個很有問題，有很多專家學者也已經提出建議，我不知道你們後續在這件事情上的態度是什麼？"],["洪科長偉倫：這個部分就像我們從委員的簡報所看到的，我們在兒托法的第八條已經明定，我們未來針對托育服務的內容跟其他事項會訂定一個實施準則，讓第一線人員還有我們相關的執法人員對於這個樣態的部分有更明確的認定。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯，就是你說的這個實施準則，可是我要說的是，所謂好的服務樣態你們會寫嘛，這個大家都會列，可是哪些是不能踩的紅線，我認為應該要寫清楚，好嗎？"],["洪科長偉倫：我們會參考教育部目前的訂法跟我們托嬰實務的操作來訂這個子法。"],["陳委員培瑜：或者是你們應該也要跟地方居托中心討論，看他們在過去所蒐集的相關違法案例當中有哪些樣態是你們身為主管機關所不能接受的，這樣我們也才可以跟一般人民交代，可以嗎？"],["洪科長偉倫：報告委員，這個也會。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，很積極。再來，我們講到獎勵的部分，以目前各縣市托育費用的調整狀況來看，說實話，22個縣市都不一樣，薪水狀態不一樣，加薪的幅度也不一樣，目前之所以會產生這個困境，就是因為這些保母的薪資是由中央交給地方政府自行訂定，所以導致各縣市的落差很大。有沒有機會帶回中央來討論如何設定一個好的薪資級距或者是調薪的邏輯跟原則，讓這些願意留在這個產業照顧小孩的保母們覺得這件事情是有意義跟有價值的？像我自己現在服務的馬祖6年來一次都沒有漲，可是高雄6年就調薪了3次，那當然跟當地的物價水準有關，也跟服務的樣態有關，可是我認為我們中央還是要有一些態度，你怎麼看這件事情？"],["洪科長偉倫：我們在未來的兒托法會明定有關保母收費項目會由中央統一，那收費數額的部分因為還是考量到各地方的物價指數等部分，所以會由地方政府去訂這個價格。我們之前也有透過相關的會議去要求各地方政府，因為我們現行的管理辦法其實就有明定地方政府要定期依照轄內的物價指數去訂這個……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，可是他們沒有做到嘛！"],["洪科長偉倫：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以後續……"],["洪科長偉倫：我們剛剛有提到，我們在相關的聯繫會議有要求地方政府要回到他們自己的托育委員會，檢視保母定價的合理性。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我覺得要更積極啦！我們有相關辦法，但是如果縣市政府不做，我們好像也沒有辦法，對不對？再來，我們也希望可以建立優良保母的獎勵跟公開機制，目前我們從平臺上面可以查到的是所謂有證照的合法保母，可是我認為在過往我們都沒有獎勵所謂優秀的保母這件事情，未來有沒有機會在平臺上註記優良保母的名單，建立獎勵機制？"],["洪科長偉倫：這個我們後續可以再跟地方政府討論，看可以把什麼樣的資訊再揭露出來，讓家長在選擇時做參考。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，如果要揭露資訊，就要搭配相關辦法，所以我想後續這個都要再來討論。最後一個是家外安置的兒少受到居家托育的照顧，目前我們看到很多被居家托育的孩子們可能就是原生家庭出了狀況，照你們現在的作法，不管他是到寄養家庭或者是安置機構，其實還會有居家托育的部分。目前中央有訂定地方政府運用居托人員照顧家外安置兒童的處理原則，可是我們認為現在這個原則有一些問題，所以想要跟你們討論。第一個，因為這些孩子都是身心有受過傷，所以照顧難度比較高，雖然居托的保母有搭配相關的知能培訓，可是居托中心的訪視員並沒有相關的知能跟培訓。所以比起所謂的兒少保社工，我們認為這些訪視員缺乏家外安置相關的評估照顧狀況跟理解風險的能力，所以我們也懷疑、甚至我們擔心很多轉介單位很容易把個案視為是一般的居托案，也就是原本這些身心受傷的孩子就被評估為一般居家托育案件，而不會完整的揭露安置兒童跟原生家庭的資訊。我們如何考慮到被安置兒少的特殊性，他不應該直接一體適用居托既有的規範，這件事情聽起來很困難，但是我認為我們應該要從剴剴案學到這個教訓，所以我想問一下這件事情有沒有機會往下討論？我們是直接建議修改處理原則的第三、四、五條。"],["洪科長偉倫：因為這個涉及到委員所提具體的修正建議，會後我們再跟委員辦公室來做討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，有這麼多具體的建議，我們希望可以在一個月內積極跟社家署展開相關會議討論，雖然你們說已經送到院會，後續要走相關程序，但是我認為在後續的修法會議當中，對於我們看到現場所反映出來的狀況，我們真的還是要改善入法，好嗎？好，謝謝社家署，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員的發言，謝謝社家署的答詢。","請下一位楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","莊瑞雄","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳培瑜","楊曜","陳瑩","涂權吉","陳菁徽"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；二、委員劉建國等\n16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利\n法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00007"}}},{"id":"160910","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160910","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc09b829845cf4c7946f84b180731b6d641c64ac1618a5937c6e766b101dd82558b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"12:18:25 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透過司長自己本身都有答覆相關委員的這樣垂詢的過程裡面我們所得到的這樣的一個答案也就是說從本法實施到現在"},{"start":112.486,"end":133.415,"text":"每一個人都非常清楚將近六年時間那不到一趴不到0.05趴的這樣的不到0.05的這樣的一個簽署的人數到成儒部長所回應委員相關委員的答詢說這個吻合率我不曉得這個吻合率的定義什麼叫吻合率那當然也有其他委員在追尋"},{"start":134.575,"end":156.669,"text":"真正有照當時簽署的AD然後去執行的這個執行率又是幾%我目前為止是沒有聽出任何答案但是部長有特別提到希望這個簽署AD的時候我們希望更嚴謹我們要提高這樣的品質那要提高品質是從ACP就必須要來處理的"},{"start":158.03,"end":166.597,"text":"但剛剛黃委員也有詮詢不過我並沒有聽出司長針對部長所講的所謂的簽署所謂的這個預例醫療的債務諮商的如何提高品質反而我是聽到司長答詢過程裡面是針對如何提高服務的量能包含從醫院的附屬機構婦女之家然後可以外展諸如此類"},{"start":183.269,"end":190.752,"text":"的這個方向去討論嘛對不對所以到底部長講的這個如何提高這個ACP的醫療照護諮商的品質要如何提高我很抱歉我從早上一直聽到現在我並沒有聽到啦這是第一點"},{"start":200.396,"end":222.558,"text":"那第二點 我有沒有聽到所謂的已經簽署的預歷醫療決定書之後它的執行率到底是多少因為我只聽到吻合率是七成嘛那第三點 這是一個不爭的事實我想各位今天所有的委員應該多數啦多數都覺得說這個ACP的諮商的會用希望以後公部門重建保署"},{"start":223.238,"end":226.162,"text":"等等等來做相關的指引那我們從去年的7月已經有做部分的這樣的一個病症的還有病人的指引那今天5月1號又擴大65歲重大疾病等嘛那因為我聽到"},{"start":239.779,"end":257.231,"text":"這樣的一個發展我當然非常樂觀其成也看到蠻欣慰就是衛福部積極要來面對這個事情處理這個事情甚至要把ACP的相關的幾乎從健保裡面擴大相關的這些對象但是問題來了當"},{"start":260.157,"end":286.46,"text":"當我們市長講說每年兩萬多人我們要提高到四萬多人要增加兩萬五千人基本上我當然是支持但你如何去提高你如何去提高因為剛剛市長所講的幾個面向基本上你要有百分之一百五十的成長還是百分之一二五的成長我是覺得市長是不是要講明確一點你的方法"},{"start":287.831,"end":307.919,"text":"這個法律是正確的這個法律往前走的過程裡面它的執行力它的預期目標我們沒有辦法去在時間內達到那我們現在想要快速的去達到那你把設定一年要增加兩萬五個人這個來參與這個醫療的照護諮商的這個人數你如果去達標"},{"start":314.878,"end":327.929,"text":"我希望你可以明確跟委員會說清楚這是第一點第二點你必須要給委員會一個肆意因為剛剛署長講說5月1號開始擴大65歲65歲的重大疾病等那兩類人數就高達180萬還不包含還不包含他原有的在去年開放的給付的對象"},{"start":346.311,"end":367.739,"text":"也不包含身心健康主動要來簽署的主動要諮商加簽署的都不包含我再簡單的比喻說如果180萬照現金每年執行然有做ACP到簽署的這是兩個層次問題啦我們講說ACP就好2萬180萬除以2萬要幾年才可以完成"},{"start":376.789,"end":401.156,"text":"九十年了如果變成四萬五要錢才可以完成四十幾年了不包括去年開始補助的部分不包括健康的主動要來簽署的要來接受要來要諮商的這是第二件事情那第三件事情這不是我說的吧很清楚北一聯講的"},{"start":406.445,"end":419.149,"text":"部長應該很清楚嘛,今天開這個會,我想牧產單位應該提供相關資料給你當病處法開始正式實施的時候,平均啊,要去做諮商的,要掛多久?一到三個月一到三個月我這邊有北藝連的這樣的一個對外的說法,我有這個花蓮慈濟醫院的說法"},{"start":432.466,"end":436.928,"text":"那如果是這個樣子 你如果兩萬變成到四萬五要怎麼解決 要怎麼處理現在姑且都不修法我們知道這個法律的目標方向是正確但是在執行上 執行率就偏低的情況之下你要如果透過行政的作為 透過相關的補助"},{"start":460.443,"end":470.149,"text":"透過你所講的只有擴大一個小的範圍或怎樣如果讓你可以提升這樣的服務量能兼顧到品質今天是因為有這樣的情況所以才有委員主動的來提供應該朝向修法的這樣的一個範疇來做處理"},{"start":484.7,"end":503.406,"text":"當然啦 當然修啊是不是可以可以就一步到位那也到位必啦但是可能有一些原有在執行的過程裡面我們就開始檢視的第幾條第幾條是不是應該有一些修正有一些放寬甚至有一些必須要更嚴謹"},{"start":504.92,"end":532.105,"text":"剛剛黃委員有特別提到如果已經簽了預立醫療決定書到時候病患家屬有意見的情況之下要怎麼處理我坦白講這條文裡面規範得很清楚如果病患本身已經無意識的情況之下就是要照當時病患所簽的醫院人所簽的預立醫療決定書去執行法律有明文規定"},{"start":533.496,"end":546.652,"text":"他可不可以發生在第七款第十四條的第一項裡面的第一款跟第五款因為他可能是默契但是他意識清楚有可能他想要復活他想要變化他想出來的兩個營養他要去改變嘛對我看也有可能啊"},{"start":550.296,"end":575.547,"text":"但是如果他是在第二款的這個第三款的植物人第二款的昏迷不可逆的情況之下他要怎麼去跟你變他要怎麼跟你再還回他的家屬怎麼可以不依照病患當時還是清楚的情況之下簽訂的預立醫療決定書去做任何改變那有可能火力就定在這邊啊"},{"start":580.636,"end":597.529,"text":"所以我現在是今天從早一直聽到現在我覺得到底是大家覺得這些事情是必須要做的那也覺得這個這個遷鎖量是不足的這個好像應該大家都沒有爭議嘛但是我們怎麼擴大這個量能有很多的方式管道"},{"start":603.261,"end":628.876,"text":"除了行政的作為 除了健保 健保署那修法裡面 難道不是也是解決之一嗎對不對 但是你們好像就把修法 馬上就把它關起來這個我覺得不太對吧我個人感覺不太對嘛不然我最後再講一個啦今天衛福部 坦白講就是要做利益眾生的事情嘛"},{"start":629.89,"end":653.805,"text":"對不對,我們要利益什麼益,要利益什麼眾生很多人都提到,臺灣人口結構就是叫做生不如死嘛CBBC會比較少嘛,對於2021現在這樣,也適當啊再來,我們需要善終的病患,如果一直做無效的醫療他就一定叫做生不如死啊,這是另外一種狀況,狀態嘛對不對"},{"start":657.115,"end":683.681,"text":"那今天我們明明知道病出華來整個實施過程裡面就是為了要讓這些病患還是健康的人未來可能遇到這14條的第一款到第一款的其中一款的情況之下都未雨綢繆的面對自己未來的人生的生命的規劃更有尊嚴更能夠善終我們要降低這種無效醫療這也是"},{"start":685.641,"end":699.874,"text":"這也是在利益眾生嘛那也是利益家屬嘛不要到最後讓家屬就剛剛永遠提到的病患本身可能有所還回還是說家屬有很多的意見我們就是要利益眾生讓家屬不要去尊重當時這個病人自主所簽訂的醫療決定書了嘛 對不對"},{"start":711.405,"end":739.601,"text":"這也是在利益啊不管是利益家屬 不管是利益這個病患也是利益在健保署啊 為什麼這麼講我覺得用補助這兩個字實在是實在是太沉重了也不夠專業但我們知道這個法來實施的情況之下就是可以朝向降低所謂的無效醫療嘛降低無效醫療也就等同於叫做降低健保給付嘛"},{"start":740.563,"end":753.682,"text":"降低健保費用嘛有沒有去做過評估雖然一年兩萬多到現在十萬就像部長所講的五謀率就像執行率到底降低了多少呢無效預料"},{"start":755.366,"end":777.831,"text":"來換算我們今天2500到3500的這樣的擴大相關的群組的補助加總起來 加減起來到底還是幾戶無效一人的幾戶大過於我們現在做這些ACP的諮商的費用多過多少 還是少了多少還是我們必須要在幾年內可以把這樣趕過來"},{"start":779.98,"end":787.804,"text":"所以我想為政者基本上開源節流這樣的一個作為跟智慧跟應變這是必要的條件啦所以我們不能一直在說我們要做這件事就給檢報負擔多少給檢報支付多少我們可能不會管理所以我們現在一百八十萬人一個人三千就五十四億"},{"start":803.683,"end":825.053,"text":"你必須要是休止調整,但是問題是你去度薪多少出來,等你一百八十萬人,卡士都要簽嗎?然後醫療決定書也都簽嗎?對不對,好,阿葛先生也真的度到像你講的穩合率或執行率,差不多20%就好,還是20%我們抓到30%,那可以減少多少的無效醫療的費用?"},{"start":827.725,"end":850.558,"text":"不是很清楚啦,我們台灣人平均臥床的時間,這都外界講的,那正確數字是多少?是七年?是八年?是六年?七、八年嘛對不對?七、八年都在那,給他做那個不好的醫療,要花多少錢?多少人?要再花多少錢?加多少人就好喔?但是現在多少人要給他?是要兩千五、三千五的ACP的智商費用"},{"start":852.244,"end":872.123,"text":"所以這個要你們很專業的然後去做這個評估今天在這個委員會我們大家可以好好來討論嘛你們提供出來更精準這個數字嘛好就像ACP我再請教一下ACP育育醫療這個照顧智商算不算一個醫療行為部長我講這麼多你可以先回應我一句話嗎"},{"start":878.855,"end":900.865,"text":"如果諮商應該不屬於醫療行為,但是諮商的內容是在討論醫療行為?是啦,沒有錯嘛,一樣嘛,我今天要去買一個醫療的保險嘛,我今天要去買一個醫療防癌的保險嘛,那我在跟你討論醫療保險,你賣我醫療保險的商品的內容的時候,是不是叫醫療行為?"},{"start":902.642,"end":915.025,"text":"相對是不是在討論未來你可能遇到什麼狀況要接受什麼醫療的時候我這個癌症的還是相關的醫療保險要幾戶嘛所以在諮商的範圍裡面我們要如果講說它叫做醫療行為"},{"start":918.658,"end":923.002,"text":"他在討論醫療,沒有錯啊,他是不是醫療行為?跟保險稍微不一樣啦,譬如我舉個例子譬如說病人說你人工輸液營養有1條嘛,上面是維持生命的治療"},{"start":938.374,"end":955.502,"text":"一定你不說什麼叫做維持生命治療 那就很難了是從壓胸插管打強心劑然後漸漸到要不要用抗生素要不要用那個這些東西說實在的我是花了30年"},{"start":957.003,"end":972.489,"text":"照顧過兩萬個默許病人在安寧病房這三十年來慢慢還是協道的所以的確是相當的深奧啦這個品質是無止境我們要去成長所以討論的這個部分的確是需要有專業人員"},{"start":975.045,"end":1001.461,"text":"來表達然後譬如說人工輸液好了在什麼時候不應該去是不是應該用鼻胃管的是不是應該去開個胃躁揉的或者打部分的營養劑或者是前營養劑這其實都是要針對病人的一個狀況這個我相信在ACP的時候一定會去討論人家病人一定會去問啦問的時候我們要怎麼回答要怎麼簽下去"},{"start":1002.935,"end":1030.061,"text":"主要是這樣啦不對這樣啦齁這個法叫做病人自主決定法嘛對不對好那我們現在補助諮商會的是針對有病症的嘛對不對沒有錯嘛好過去是不給護過去不給護在署長之前是把他認定ACP不是醫療行為所以不給護那現在給護了就叫做醫療行為嘛署長就笑了"},{"start":1031.224,"end":1037.221,"text":"這第一點那第二點我們是針對病患的時候或許部長講這樣是一個範疇那像身體健康的"},{"start":1039.468,"end":1062.557,"text":"我是身體健康的我要做醫療諮商的他還是會問後面那我要勾對不對我要勾我要不要接受同意我到時候不做維持生命治療他一定會問你不管你是健康的一定會問啊是啊 那個是遇到14條第一項裡面的1到5款的情況之下"},{"start":1063.217,"end":1073.721,"text":"在那個當下發生的時候才會有所謂的醫療行為嘛但我在諮商的時候怎麼會有醫療行為所以要有專業的一個要有專業的說明啦是專業的說明就是有提供醫療照護諮商是醫療機構管理辦法第四條嘛講得很清楚嘛對不對"},{"start":1082.404,"end":1100.594,"text":"好,諮商機構應組成育立育療這個照護諮商團隊與像解釋諮商團隊至少包括現在人員嘛第一個醫師一人應具有專科醫師資格嘛對不對第二護理人員一人應具有兩年以上臨床實務經驗嘛第三心理師或社工人員一人應具有兩年以上實務經驗"},{"start":1102.415,"end":1115.246,"text":"但是這個第二條第二項諮商機構的就前項第二款或第三款人員折衣設置第一項人員應完成中央主管公告"},{"start":1116.266,"end":1135.683,"text":"至於醫療照護諮商訓練課程也就是說他還是必須要不管你是醫師不管你是護理師不管你是社卿人員你還是要完成所謂的諮商訓練課程嘛對不對醫師四個小時嘛護理 社工 心理六到十一個小時嘛今天這個當時這個管理辦法"},{"start":1141.943,"end":1154.427,"text":"那個時代定下來的情境嘛好,我們現在都是一樣依照這樣去執行啊沒有錯啊但是不講現狀遇到什麼狀況當北醫連這麼講當花蓮慈濟這麼講的時候當相關的醫院這麼樣的醫療緊繃的情況之下醫師還要來做這些事情"},{"start":1171.209,"end":1177.934,"text":"你覺得現狀對醫師是好對想要去做ACP的對象是好這個大家在討論我們有訂建我們有說一定醫師非做不做不可是現今的狀況掛一個號從開始實施開始實施到1080到現在喔就是平均要去掛的就是一個月等到三個月啊現在5月1號"},{"start":1201.052,"end":1204.333,"text":"署長這邊在支付65歲以上的180萬人當然不可能180萬人馬上做也不可能馬上18萬1萬8就好了你怎麼做下去你做不下去啦"},{"start":1216.974,"end":1238.859,"text":"你絕對做不去嘛你現在擴展以後 其實場地 場域也擴展很大診所也都可以做的嘛診所可以做 我堅持我支持啊 可以啊所以應該是那個場域喔擴展到很大啦 沒錯 你是醫生啦那北京也對不對 全國的醫術國會律師隊 台北市醫術國會律師隊這兩屆立委 又撲書"},{"start":1243.174,"end":1248.817,"text":"你開清掃,我來幫你支撐,對不對?跟你看一個備份,你怎麼辦?我當然會預約時間,譬如說我...預約嘛,對,預約嘛。我預約時間,我可以看望鏡,普通人現在都這樣啦,我可以看望鏡,那預約一段時間,有的是去做居家,預約有的是去刷店,他也可以預約在預約,看兩三個房子,這樣來解決他的可能,因為這個有社區醫療群,"},{"start":1272.85,"end":1274.411,"text":"我覺得部長我們有一起到過日本參觀過"},{"start":1295.55,"end":1322.725,"text":"不只是日本這個都蠻受到他們那個就是日本的那個評鑑制度跟我們不一樣嘛對不對他們那些評鑑師去列舉的就是優良的很棒的這些互惹人性互惹更好的這樣的一個級別的產道機構我們都有去參訪過嘛那也甚至於有美國的這個NGO團體特別到日本去認證這種機構都是Top的啦"},{"start":1325.441,"end":1344.033,"text":"他們的長照機構很多都是多資種一起進入嘛他們在機構裡面可以申請健保幾戶也一併可以處理可以接保險也一併可以來做雙種處理嘛那我就不清楚吧你當然也可以要你自己想到要開放更寬的這個範疇開放到診所那為什麼長照機構不行"},{"start":1348.959,"end":1358.686,"text":"我就不清楚了,長照機構絕對不是像蘇委員所講的外展服務到長照機構外展可以到長照機構嘛對不對你們開宗明義你們答覆我們的公文,答覆我們的報告書裡面你寫到這三個外國我就看不到了,你把第九條和第十四條你把它分成一團"},{"start":1373.561,"end":1401.404,"text":"我不清楚你為什麼要把這種事情混在一塊啊你至始至終坦白講你對金融機關核准之護理機構、長照機構、心理治療所、心理諮商所、社工師事務所或法人的這個提供的預立醫療諮商、照護諮商這是一件事情,就一個句號嘛你在講經一位醫師診斷後末期這是在講第十四條第一項的第一款嘛"},{"start":1406.38,"end":1434.451,"text":"你為什麼要把兩個兩件事情放在一塊我們要解釋的是說過去我們在機構管理這邊透過醫療機構的外展服務然後那像診所端的其實他的相關的設計人員沒有其實可以不用他自己所謂的專任的這件事情所以在目前的制度執行上面其實有他的彈性空間在然後這一次的擴大的部分的話其實我們也希望用這樣子的量能來做一個擴大"},{"start":1435.171,"end":1459.538,"text":"然後我們144這邊的話其實是很多的醫師受完訓之後他其實是怎麼樣去提供這樣服務我們現在看到的落差的弱點是在不敢去提供服務所以我們會有那個輔導團隊來協助提供服務這樣子增加量能的部分我們覺得是增加量能的嘛 對不對對 增加量能市長你現在答覆跟我要做的事情目標是一致嘛"},{"start":1460.539,"end":1481.335,"text":"寬寡上的落差我覺得是還是有啦還是有我尊重啦但是這兩件事情是不一樣的東西你把它放在一塊就不對嘛我簡單講一下第九條第一項第一款的修正我們是在就像你講的嘛我們要增加的諮商的這個機構嘛不增加目前醫療機構的執行負擔嘛"},{"start":1483.342,"end":1511.031,"text":"我的想法是這樣 我不曉得想法是不是這樣 這第一那第二 我們這次的計劃是針對現在在臨床上遭遇到有困難有障礙的地方來進行處理所以因此必須回歸到現今的醫療現場狀況嘛你現在已經是做得起沒嘛醫事人力真的有這麼充裕嗎 部長所以剛剛有特別提到 台北四連一目前關牌ACP就高達一到三個月啊你可以馬上徵詢嘛 台北執行院也要一個月啊"},{"start":1512.504,"end":1536.089,"text":"跟你講就開始送到現在就是要一到三個月啊有改善了嗎?有改變了嗎?你先保護我這個嘛,有嗎?我要講的是說過去一直大家來講的困境就是對醫院而言incentive也不夠,量也不夠的情況下面要開更多的門診的這件事所以我才會覺得是要開更多的門診對,因為排隊塞車,玉麗之山所以要開更多的門診"},{"start":1539.57,"end":1551.624,"text":"市長 妳是專業的咧沒有 我在講是說過去一直在大家在講的是困境所以我們才會什麼樣的困境當然是有困境妳講的困境跟我認知的困境就不一樣啊"},{"start":1552.692,"end":1579.08,"text":"對 所以我才會是說委員在這邊講的第一個是說塞車這個問題所以我們才會是說如果直覺的反應是開門診的這件事情那為什麼不善用基層的這一塊而且人都學過我沒有反對你要開放基層的這一塊啊我從頭到尾沒有反對啊是你在反對我要擴大這些機構啊因為我們會覺得你不能講 你在反對我反而說我在反對你啊亂講啊"},{"start":1581.926,"end":1587.43,"text":"至此之中,我到現在跟你在對話的過程裡面,誰反對你?看到證書所?我第一次看到一個報告顯成這樣我第一次看到,柏中,你做過兩個月了,你覺得看過這種報告?"},{"start":1607.177,"end":1622.904,"text":"你總共收集幾條?你回應我兩條?剩下你給我怎麼回答?不是只有針對回答我,包括王委員,你怎麼回?其餘條文僅部分文字及配合實務運作修正,無影響執行上的成效。我就看你怎麼樣檢視你的執行上的成效了。你,市長,今年你要增加到四萬五喔。我們說四萬二。"},{"start":1636.67,"end":1640.831,"text":"好啦,減五千也沒關係啦我看你要逼死誰啊我看你要逼死誰啊現在已經是五月一號了第二劑過一半了你要從兩萬多變成四萬百分之一百啊擴大診所,我支持"},{"start":1661.2,"end":1670.708,"text":"醫療機構延伸到護理之家 外展我也支持 都沒跟你反對那我請教一下 講這些護理機構 創造機構 心理治療所 心理治療師那你為什麼要反對我們在講的是協作的部分 大家本來都是可以一起參與的因為本來在那個團隊裡面就會有這樣子的職類的人其實大家一起協作是沒有問題的啊是啊 沒有問題的啊 那你講啊"},{"start":1691.048,"end":1710.991,"text":"這個你答覆嘛,有關修正條文,因為這個程序對象會用自應多會後面,愛各界達成共識,所以我們所有委員的提案,提的所有的修正條文,就是沒有一條適用嘛,沒有一條符合要讓整個ACP的服務量能提升,我們所修的每一條,"},{"start":1712.014,"end":1720.833,"text":"就是讓要簽署AD的這個量能可以提升我們所修的每一個條文對ACP的品質也沒辦法提升"},{"start":1723.2,"end":1739.393,"text":"AT也沒辦法提升 沒辦法增加對 那沒關係那我們就拭目以待嘛我們就要看你意思思健保署如果今天在5月以後不再擴大我就要看你如何去達標嘛達到你講的嘛那你現在設定這個標兩萬多變成4萬是什麼標是最低標還是中標還是你自己設定的標"},{"start":1751.518,"end":1773.053,"text":"這剛剛講的5月要開始的180萬,你如何把相關的去執行的這樣的一個目標,存給委員會啊,多久可以完成啊。不包含這個啊,包含其他的7月份,包含健康的,要盡早接受育育醫療照護諮商的對象。"},{"start":1781.043,"end":1806.889,"text":"我想我們是非常開放的態度,如果臨床上真的需要改善的或需要修訂的,我們都是完全開放的態度來處理請委員放心,我們都可以來討論來看怎麼樣修正但是最重要就是達到量跟值的一個提升,來照顧我們的病人"},{"start":1808.191,"end":1823.039,"text":"好 沒錯 我想大家都要做對的事情 要做好的事情 要做利益中心的事情嘛 對不對但是不可以記名就有偏見啦也不可以記名就叫自己自己很厲害啦"},{"start":1825.663,"end":1834.168,"text":"我認為當各位議員提出相關的手法案的時候,我認為經濟機關應該是辛苦去面對,不然我就會逼手法,提出更好的,可以達成議員的目標。我簡單說,我們到現在連目標也沒有定。"},{"start":1845.194,"end":1871.516,"text":"是你如果說就變四萬了你如果變四萬 人家是有辦法擴大到所有的你講的這樣的一個範疇什麼時候開始執行什麼時候可以到位 沒有勒也完全沒有勒然後我就跟你講說你這樣會不會造成更緊繃的醫療能力會不會你這個要去思考啊你們都來自醫界啊我這個是善意提醒啦好 謝謝主席謝謝劉建國 趙偉的主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":662,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時18分）謝謝主席。我特別跟主席回報一下，我剛剛有講，提案委員如果要做提案說明，要增加時間，我有給王委員，也希望你可以給我更多的時間。第二件事情，這個法律坦白講應該是行政跟立法院有一定程度的共識，因為大家都知道這個必須要推，是一個好的法律，包含部長在當委員的時候也積極的參與，甚至於在很多的記者會、相關的場合都表達認同對病主法推動的作為。主席請坐，你這樣站著好像怪怪的，不好意思，不然請部長好了。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉委員建國：所以一定是有共識的時候我們才會積極來推動，要產生共識當然有很多方式，第一個，委員會；第二個，公聽會；第三個，相關的協調會，我們到時候都還會邀請公部門、醫界、病團，包含原有提案的楊委員、孫教授等等，大家一起共同來面對、來處理。但是今天有一個最大、最大的共識，就是基本上病主法這個法律是要繼續推下去的，然後所謂的ACP跟簽署AD必須要提高量能，這個也不是今天開委員會才產生的結果，而是剛剛我們透過部長、透過司長在答復相關委員的垂詢過程裡面所得到的答案。也就是說，從本法實施到現在，每一個人都非常清楚，將近六年的時間不到1%，甚至不到0.05%這樣的簽署人數，誠如部長所回應相關委員的答詢說吻合率，我不曉得這個吻合率的定義是什麼？什麼叫吻合率？當然也有其他委員在垂詢，真正有照當時簽署的AD去執行的，這個執行率又是百分之幾？我目前為止是沒有聽出任何答案。但是部長有特別提到，希望簽署AD的時候可以更嚴謹，我們要提高品質，要提高品質，是從ACP就必須要來處理的吧？剛剛黃委員也有質詢，不過我並沒有聽出司長針對部長所講的，如何提高預立醫療照護諮商的品質，反而是聽到司長在答詢過程裡面是針對如何提高服務的量能，包含從醫院的附屬機構、護理之家，然後可以外展諸如此類的方向去討論，對不對？所以到底部長講ACP（預立醫療照護諮商）的品質要如何提高？抱歉，我從早上一直聽到現在，我並沒有聽到，這是第一點。","第二點，我也沒有聽到所謂的已經簽署預立醫療決定書之後，它的執行率到底是多少？因為我只聽到吻合率是七成。第三點，這是一個不爭的事實，今天多數的委員應該都希望ACP的諮商費用可以由公部門從健保署等等來做相關的支應，我們從去年7月也已經針對部分病症還有病人提供補助，今天（5月1日）又擴大到65歲以上重大疾病等。我聽到這樣一個發展，我當然非常樂觀，也感到滿欣慰的，就是衛福部積極要來面對這個事情、處理這個事情，甚至要把ACP相關的給付從健保裡面擴大相關的對象。但是問題來了，當司長說要從每年二萬多人提高到四萬多人，要增加二萬五千人，基本上我當然是支持，但你如何去提高？因為剛剛司長所講的幾個面向，基本上你要有150%的成長，還是125%的成長，我是覺得司長是不是要講明確一點，你的方法是什麼？這個法律是正確的，這個法律往前走的過程中，它的執行率、它的預期目標，我們沒有辦法在時間內達到，但我們現在想要快速的去達到，你設定一年要增加二萬五的人來參與預立醫療照護諮商，這個人數你要如何去達標？我希望你可以明確的跟委員會說清楚，這是第一點。","第二點，你也必須要要給委員會一個釋疑，因為剛剛署長說，5月1日開始擴大65歲以上重大疾病等，那兩類的人數就高達180萬，還不包含去年就開放的原有給付對象，也不包含身心健康主動要來簽署的、主動要諮商加簽署的，都不包含。我再簡單的比喻，如果180萬照現今每年執行，有做ACP到簽署的，這是兩個層次的問題啦！我們說ACP就好，假設是2萬，180萬除以2萬，要幾年才可以完成？要90年！如果變成四萬五，要幾年才可以完成？四十幾年啦！不包括去年開始補助的部分，不包括健康的主動要來諮商的，這是第二件事情。","第三件事情，這不是我說的吧？是北聯醫講的，部長應該很清楚，今天開這個會，我想幕僚單位應該有提供相關資料給你，當病主法開始正式實施的時候，平均要去做諮商的要掛多久？一到三個月，我這邊有北聯醫對外的說法，我有花蓮慈濟醫院的說法，如果是這樣子，你如何從二萬變成到四萬五？要怎麼解決、要怎麼處理？現在姑且都不修法，我們知道這個法律的目標、方向是正確的，但是在執行上執行率就偏低的情況之下，你要如何透過行政的作為、透過相關的補助、透過你所講的只有擴大一個小的範圍或怎樣，如何讓你提升這樣的服務量能且兼顧到品質？今天是因為有這樣的情況，所以才有委員主動的提供應該朝向修法這樣一個範疇來做處理，當然修法是不是可以一步到位？也到未必，但是可能有一些是原有在執行的過程當中我們就開始檢視的，像是第幾條是不是應該有一些修正、有一些放寬，甚至有一些必須要更嚴謹的？剛剛黃委員有特別提到，如果已經簽了預立醫療決定書，到時候病患反悔、家屬有意見的情況之下，要怎麼處理？我坦白講，這條文裡面規範得很清楚，如果病患本身已經無意識的情況之下，就是要照當時病患（預立人）在醫院裡所簽的預立醫療決定書去執行，法律有明文規定啊！這可能發生在第幾款？第十四條第一項裡面的第一款跟第五款，因為他可能是末期，但是他意識清楚，他有可能想要反悔，他想要改變，他想到家裡的人會受到影響，所以他想去改變，第五款也有可能啊！但是如果他是第三款的植物人、第二款的昏迷不可逆的情況之下，他要怎麼去跟你改變？他要怎麼反悔？他的家屬怎麼可以不依照病患當時還清楚的情況之下所簽訂的預立醫療決定書，去做任何改變？哪有可能？法律就訂在這邊了啊！","所以我今天從早一直聽到現在，大家覺得這件事是必須要做的，也覺得這個簽署的量能是不足的，這個應該大家都沒有爭議，但是我們怎麼樣擴大這個量能？有很多的方式、管道，除了行政的作為，除了健保署，難道修法不也是解決方式之一嗎？但是你們好像馬上就把修法關起來，這個我覺得不太對吧？我個人感覺不太對嘛！","部長，我最後再講一個，坦白講，衛福部就是要做利益眾生的事情，對不對？我們要利益什麼眾生？很多人都提到臺灣的人口結構叫做「生不如死」，也就是出生的人口比死亡人口還要少，從2021年到現在已經第四年了。再來，需要善終的病患如果一直做無效的醫療，那就一定叫做生不如死，這是另外一種狀態，對不對？今天我們明明知道在病主法的整個實施過程，就是為了要讓這些病患或者是健康的人，未來可能遇到第十四條第一款到第五款其中一款的情況之下，都能未雨綢繆的讓自己未來人生的生命規劃更有尊嚴、更能夠善終，我們要降低這種無效醫療，這也是在利益眾生，同時也是利益家屬，不要到最後讓家屬……就是剛剛有委員提到的，可能病患本身有所反悔，還是家屬有很多意見，我們就是要利益眾生，尊重當時病人自主所簽訂的預立醫療決定書，這也是在利益啊！不只是利益家屬，不只是利益病患，同時也是在利益健保署，為什麼這麼講？我覺得用「補助」這兩個字實在太沉重了，也不夠專業。當我們知道實施這個法就是可以朝向降低所謂的無效醫療，降低無效醫療也就等同於降低健保給付、降低健保費用，有沒有做過評估？雖然一年兩萬多，到現在十萬，就像部長所講的吻合率、執行率，到底降低了多少的無效醫療？以此換算2,500到3,500的擴大相關群組的補助，加減起來到底無效醫療的給付大過現在ACP的諮商費用多少？還是少多少？還是我們在幾年內可以趕過來？","基本上，為政者開源節流的作為、智慧及應變是必要的條件，所以我們不能一直說我們要做這件事情就要讓健保負擔多少、因為讓健保支付太多我們可能承受不住。如果現在是180萬人，以一個人3,000來計算，那就需要54億，雖然必須支付這筆錢，但問題是反而節省了多少？如果180萬人確實都簽了，然後預立醫療決定書也都簽了，到時候如果真的遇到像你講的吻合率或執行率差不多20%就好，還是我們也可以抓到30%，可以減少多少的無效醫療費用？相信部長很清楚，關於臺灣人平均臥床的時間，現在這些都是外界講的，但正確的數字是多少？究竟是7年、8年還是6年？應該是7、8年對不對？7、8年都躺在那裡，多做那些無效的醫療要花多少錢？一個人要再多花多少錢？光是說一個人就好喔！但現在是給每一個人2,500到3,500的ACP諮商費用，所以這個要你們很專業的去做評估，今天在這個委員會我們大家可以好好來討論，但你們要提供出來更精準的數字。我再請教一下ACP預立醫療照護諮商算不算醫療行為？部長，我講這麼多，你可以先回應我一句話嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：如果是諮商，應該不屬於醫療行為，但是諮商的內容是在討論醫療行為。"],["劉委員建國：是啦，沒有錯嘛！我今天要去買一個醫療防癌保險，我在跟你討論你賣給我的醫療保險商品內容的時候，那叫不叫醫療行為？相對是不是在討論未來你可能遇到什麼狀況、要接受什麼醫療的時候，癌症或相關的醫療保險要給付嘛！所以在諮商的範圍裡面，我們要如何說它叫做醫療行為？它在討論醫療沒有錯啊！"],["邱部長泰源：對，討論醫療……"],["劉委員建國：但它是不是醫療行為？"],["邱部長泰源：跟保險稍微不一樣啦！我舉個例子，譬如針對人工營養輸液有一條規定是維持生命的治療，他一定問你什麼叫做維持生命治療？那就很複雜了，從壓胸、插管、打強心劑，漸漸到要不要用抗生素，說實在的，這些東西我是花了30年、照顧過2萬個末期病人，在安寧病房30年才慢慢學到的，所以的確是相當的深奧，這個品質是無止境的，我們要去成長。所以我們所討論的這個部分，的確是需要有專業人員來表達，譬如人工輸液好了，是不是應該要用鼻胃管，是不是應該去開個胃造廔，是打部分的營養劑或是全營養劑，這其實都要針對病人的狀況，我相信這個在ACP的時候一定會討論，病人一定會去問啦！病人問的時候，我們要有辦法回答，不然他怎麼簽得下去？主要是這樣啦！"],["劉委員建國：這個法叫做病人自主權利法，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：我們現在補助諮商費的是針對有病症的對不對？應該沒有錯嘛！過去是不給付，在石署長之前認定ACP不是醫療行為，所以不給付，現在給付了就叫做醫療行為嗎？我看到署長在笑了，這是第一點。","第二點，如果是針對病患，或許部長講這樣是一個範疇，那像身體健康的呢？我是身體健康的，我來做預立醫療諮商的呢？"],["邱部長泰源：他還是會問，他要勾對不對？"],["劉委員建國：對啊！"],["邱部長泰源：他要勾要不要同意到時候不做維持生命治療，他一定會問，不管你是不是健康的人都一定會問啊！"],["劉委員建國：是啊！那是遇到第十四條第一項第一款到第五款的情況之下，在發生當下，才會有所謂的醫療行為，但我在諮商的時候怎麼會有醫療行為？"],["邱部長泰源：所以要有專業的說明啦！"],["劉委員建國：是，關於專業的說明，提供預立醫療照護諮商之醫療機構管理辦法第四條講得很清楚，諮商機構應組成預立醫療照護諮商團隊（以下簡稱諮商團隊），至少包括下列人員：一、醫師一人：應具有專科醫師資格。二、護理人員一人：應具有二年以上臨床實務經驗。三、心理師或社會工作人員一人：應具有二年以上臨床實務經驗。第二條第二項諮商機構，得就前項第二款或第三款人員擇 一設置。第一項人員，應完成中央主管機關公告之預立醫療照護諮商訓練課程。也就是說，不管你是醫師，不管你是護理師，不管你是社心人員，你還是要完成所謂的諮商訓練課程，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：醫師4個小時，護理、社工、心理人員6到11個小時，這是當時這一個管理辦法在那個時代訂下來的情境，我們現在都是依照這樣去執行沒有錯，但是現狀遇到什麼狀況？當北聯醫這麼講、當花蓮慈濟這麼講的時候，當相關醫院在醫療這麼緊繃的情況之下，醫師還要來做這些事情，你覺得現狀對醫師是好的、對想要去做ACP的對象是好的嗎？這個大家來討論，我沒有定見，我沒有說醫師一定非做不可。現今的狀況就是掛一個號，從108年開始實施到現在，平均去掛號就是要等一個月到三個月。今天是5月1號，署長這邊在支付65歲以上的180萬人，當然不可能180萬人馬上做，也不可能馬上就有18萬人，我們說1萬8,000人就好了，你怎麼做得完？你做不完啦！你絕對做不完嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，現在擴展以後，其實場域也擴展很大，包括診所也都可以做了嘛！"],["劉委員建國：診所可以做，我接受、我支持啊！可以呀！"],["邱部長泰源：所以應該是那個場域擴展到很大。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你是醫生的背景，對不對？醫師公會全聯會理事長、台北市醫師公會理事長，還做了2屆立委，又是博士，你開診所，我去跟你諮商，跟你看一個病患，兩者之間你要怎麼選擇？"],["邱部長泰源：我當然會預約時間，譬如……"],["劉委員建國：對，預約。"],["邱部長泰源：譬如下午的時間，我早上看完……普通現在都這樣，上午看門診，下午約一些診或是做居家，有的去山上、海邊，他也可以約在下午看二、三個患者，這樣來解決。因為有社區醫療群的病人在裡面，那些病人本來就是診所在照顧的，他們把照顧的對象叫來講一講，第一個，有信任感；第二個，又很熟悉，家屬等等一定會信任，因為全家都是這位醫師在看診的。"],["劉委員建國：我跟部長有一起到日本參觀過，日本的評鑑制度跟我們不一樣，對不對？他們的評鑑列舉優良的、很棒的、符合人性的、更好級別的長照機構，我們都有去參訪過，甚至也有美國的NGO團體特別到日本去認證這種機構，都是top的。他們的長照機構很多都是一起進入，他們在機構裡面可以申請健保給付，一併可以處理，介護保險也一併可以做雙重處理。我就不清楚，你自己想到要開放更寬的範疇、開放到診所，為什麼長照機構不行？我就不清楚了。"],["邱部長泰源：長照機構如果……"],["劉委員建國：長照機構絕對不是像蘇委員所講的，人家說……你連廟都開放了。"],["邱部長泰源：外展服務可以到長照機構。"],["劉委員建國：外展可以到長照機構，對不對？你們開宗明義答復我們的報告書裡面寫的是什麼，我就看不懂，你把第九條及第十四條混為一談，我不清楚你們為什麼要把這種事情混在一塊？自始至終坦白講……「經主管機關核准之護理機構、長照機構、心理治療所、心理諮商所、社會工作師事務所或法人得提供預立醫療照護諮商。」這是一件事情，這裡是一個句號；然後「經一位醫師診斷符合末期……」，這是在講第十四條第一項第一款，你為什麼要把兩件事情放在一塊？"],["劉司長越萍：沒有，我們要解釋的是過去我們在機構管理這邊，透過醫療機構的外展服務，像診所端的，其實它相關的社心人員可以不用所謂的專任，所以在目前的制度執行上面有它的彈性空間在。這次擴大的部分，我們希望用這樣子的量能來做擴大。以醫事司這邊，其實很多醫師受完訓之後提供這樣的服務，我們現在看到的落差的落點是在不敢去提供服務，所以我們會有輔導團隊來協助提供服務，這樣子增加量能的部分我們覺得是……"],["劉委員建國：增加量能的，對不對？"],["劉司長越萍：對，增加量能。"],["劉委員建國：司長，你現在的答復跟我要做的事情目標是一致的……"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["劉委員建國：方法上的落差我覺得還是有，我尊重，但是這兩件事情是不一樣的東西，你把他們放在一塊就不對。我簡單講一下，第九條第一項第一款的修正，就像你講的，我們要增加諮商的機構，不增加目前醫療機構的執行負擔，我的想法是這樣，但是我不曉得你的想法是不是這樣，這是第一。","第二，我們這次的修法是針對現在在臨床上遭到有困難、有障礙的地方來進行處理，因此必須回歸到現今的醫療現場狀況，現在的醫生做得來嗎？部長，醫事人力真的有這麼充裕嗎？所以我剛才特別提到臺北市聯醫目前光排ACP就高達1到3個月，你可以馬上徵詢，臺北市聯醫也要1個月，就跟你講從開始到現在就是要1到3個月，有改善了嗎？你先答復我這個。有嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：我要講的是，過去大家一直講的困境，就是對醫院而言，在incentive不夠、量也不夠的情況下要開更多的門診這件事，所以我才會覺得……"],["劉委員建國：要開更多的門診？"],["劉司長越萍：對，因為排隊塞車，預立諮商的這件事……"],["劉委員建國：所以要開更多的門診？司長，你是專業的耶！"],["劉司長越萍：沒有，我在講的是，過去大家一直在講的是困境，所以我們才會……"],["劉委員建國：什麼樣的困境？當然是有困境，你講的困境跟我認知的困境就不一樣啊！"],["劉司長越萍：對，所以我才會說，委員在這邊講的，第一個是塞車這個問題，我們如果直覺的反應是開門診這件事情，為什麼不善用基層這一塊？而且人都訓練過了……"],["劉委員建國：我沒有反對你要開放基層這一塊啊！我從頭到尾沒有反對呀！是你在反對我要擴大這些機構啊！"],["劉司長越萍：因為我們會覺得……"],["劉委員建國：你不能講，是你在反對我，反而說我在反對你呀！亂講啊！自始至終我現在跟你對話的過程裡面，誰反對你開放到診所？我第一次看到一個報告寫成這樣！"],["邱部長泰源：我想委員也支持我們……"],["劉委員建國：我第一次看到！部長，你也做過兩屆立委，你看過這種報告嗎？總共修十幾條，你回應我兩條，剩下的你回答什麼？不是只有針對回答我，還包括王委員，你怎麼回？「其餘條文僅部分文字及配合實務運作修正，無影響執行上之成效」，我就看你怎麼樣檢視你的執行成效。司長，你今年要增加到4萬5喔！"],["劉司長越萍：我們說4萬。"],["劉委員建國：好，減5,000也沒關係，我看你要逼死誰，我看你要逼死誰！現在已經是5月1號了，第2季過一半了，你要從兩萬多變成4萬，100%啊！擴大到診所，我支持；醫療機構延伸到護理之家、外展，我也支持，統統沒給你反對。我請教一下，講這些護理機構、長照機構、心理治療所、心理諮商師，你為什麼要反對？"],["劉司長越萍：我們在講的是協作的部分大家本來都是可以一起參與的，因為本來在團隊裡面就會有這樣職類的人，其實大家一起協作是沒有問題的。"],["劉委員建國：司長，沒有問題，但是你的答復是「有關所提修正條文草案，因涉及……對象、程序與費用支應等多方面向，應俟各界達成共識……」，所以所有委員提的所有修正條文沒有一條適用，沒有一條符合讓整個ACP的服務量能提升。我們所修的每一條就是讓要簽署AD的量能可以提升，卻變成我們所修的每一個條文對ACP的品質也沒辦法提升，AD也沒辦法提升、沒辦法增加。沒關係，我們就拭目以待，我們就看你們醫事司……健保署如果在今天5月1號不再擴大，我就要看你如何去達標、達到你講的。你現在設定這個標，從兩萬多變成4萬，是什麼標？是最低標，還是中標，還是你自己設定的標？剛剛講的5月1號開始的180萬，你如何把相關執行的目標陳給委員會？多久可以完成？不包含這個，包含其他的7月份，包含健康的、要儘早接受預立醫療照護諮商的對象。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想我們是非常開放的態度，如果臨床上真的需要改善或必須要修訂的，我們都完全以開放的態度來處理，請委員放心，我們都可以來討論、看怎麼樣修正，但是最重要就是達到量跟質的提升來照顧我們的病人。"],["劉委員建國：好，部長，我想大家都在做對的事情、做好的事情、做利益眾生的事情，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["劉委員建國：但是不要見面就有偏見，也不要見面就說自己有多厲害，當國會議員提出相關修法案的時候，我想行政機關應該是要誠懇的去面對。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：不然你就要有辦法提出比修法更好的、可以達成一定目標的方式嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：我簡單說，你們到現在連目標也沒有訂出來，是你自己說要從2萬變4萬，2萬要變4萬，什麼時候有辦法擴大到你所講的這樣的範疇？什麼時候開始執行？什麼時候可以到位？完全都沒有。然後我跟你講這樣會不會造成更緊繃的醫療人力，你要去思考會不會啊！你們都來自醫界啊！"],["邱部長泰源：了解。"],["劉委員建國：我這個是善意的提醒。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們來努力做這件事情。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國召委的充分發言，也謝謝部長跟司長的答詢。","下一位請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","莊瑞雄","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳培瑜","楊曜","陳瑩","涂權吉","陳菁徽"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；二、委員劉建國等\n16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利\n法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00007"}}},{"id":"160909","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160909","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc098e32b575c12c7ca2bf9a8039e28b7cac64ac1618a5937c65072d6cea2f53abe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:32:36 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蘇發部的黃部長還有公平會的毛祖密好 公平會委員好委員好已經問了一個早上了我覺得我們現在解決問題把問題 把它我們共同來解決問題"},{"start":45.977,"end":69.557,"text":"這個新聞有價這個是還有一個公平的環境啊台灣這個媒體環境要更能夠健全這個大家都有共識嘛那今天早上發現有一個比較嚴重的問題就是說你提到那個川普的高官稅這個衝擊啦那事實上這個從昨天開始我記得台灣有很多專家學者還有很多很有智慧的朋友馬上就去解決這個問題他說真正"},{"start":72.596,"end":91.991,"text":"會對高官稅有衝擊的其實就是你要用抽他的這個社會稅設置這個特種基金嘛對不對那這個我覺得這個我們就可以如果要解決問題這個我們就可以先把它停下來那可是可是讓這個媒體有強制溢價溢價法這個強制溢價我這件事是可以推的"},{"start":92.927,"end":119.644,"text":"好不好我們還是往這個方向走那我們台灣民眾黨的條文很清楚我們本來是雙管齊下有基金有強制這個議價那強制議價我清楚講一下我們這條文都已經明確講了就是說你要讓媒體有一個強制議價的一個做法讓我們可以去跟這個平台他去談就是一個給他一個法律的一個依據然後程序是要明定的這樣你才能夠有一個方法有一個依據跟你有一個強制力去跟"},{"start":120.731,"end":145.557,"text":"Google對不對跟Meta他們可以談嘛你就給他一個法源那如果我更進一步來講他們現在是有些是個別的例如說我剛剛講可能東森電視台TBS電視台或者自由跟聯合他們自己就已經已經去談了嘛對不對已經去談了嘛對不對那我是希望說我們在這次的法裡面可以明定一些政府到底怎麼去幫忙的所以你們這段時間跟"},{"start":146.584,"end":171.423,"text":"跟Google他們都有聯絡嘛對不對這方面我只是覺得政府要多幫我們的媒體跟我們從業人員然後講你看今天一早大家來這邊背景你看我們的新聞從業人員多辛苦早上都在這裡了可是現在我們碰到什麼問題他們那麼辛苦的在工作可能到後來是做白工啊結果Google就把他們的東西他們拿去用了然後他們就收了廣告"},{"start":173.281,"end":194.323,"text":"所以不只是說媒體是要有價的 但是說不公平嘛我相信這個是全世界共同都應該解決的這個問題啦所以不能夠卡住 我當然不能夠in a face就是說我們現在有一個共識就是說 你每天都吃飯一樣嘛對不對 你已經發現這個已經不公平啊對我們的媒體從業人也不公平 對我們媒體產業也不公平"},{"start":195.39,"end":221.852,"text":"那政府有責任要多幫忙委員講的問題的確是問題啦那也就是我們一直很關心的問題只是說強制溢價法這個媒體溢價強制這個方法目前在經過這兩年三年在澳洲實施目前在2024年這兩個大我們講的是兩個大媒體一個Google一個Meta都不再付錢這個就變成是一個問題就是說在澳洲實施上是我們從經濟學"},{"start":223.373,"end":244.13,"text":"他大欺小 強凌肉對不對然後對成我們台灣的媒體受到影響啊我們要去力爭嘛那沒有錯 我也接受就是說沒有錯我們現在剛好碰到一個高關稅的這個風暴那可是我們不能停下來就不能音樂會社就停下來啊我們還是要去做嘛 要去爭取嘛而且你看到我們台積電都去了投資了一千億美金一開始美國還不弄了一個32%"},{"start":246.555,"end":270.281,"text":"我們該爭取自己該有的 那自己不能夠先放棄啦報告委員 就是現在是兩個問題一個就是說到底強制一架法是不是真的能夠幫助我們台灣的新聞媒體我現在這個東西從澳洲的兩年經驗看起來開始要打問號因為澳洲已經停止 就是說有一些包括Economics就是經濟資源雜誌都說這個法是 加拿大跟澳洲這個法是失敗的"},{"start":271.181,"end":290.833,"text":"那主要其實我們在講所謂的這個大平台就兩個一個叫Google一個叫MetaMeta已經到處不付錢那Google也要撤出像在澳洲的付費的機制所以這個法到底是幫助了Local媒體還是傷害Local媒體這個就是讓我們非常猶豫的原因因為我們看到的是"},{"start":291.673,"end":320.419,"text":"並沒有幫助所以我在講就是部長你說你看是沒有幫助我們看到為什麼是有幫助那是過他曾經兩年但是我說2024年他們做了某些停止都不代表說以後不會往前走我們有跟這兩個完全負面的我講兩個很重要的事情保定你有注意去年的十幾個我們的這個平面媒體電子媒體跟數位媒體共同做了一個媒體共同聲明你有看到這個聲明嗎聲明裡面就講到三個三個事情嘛一個就是說"},{"start":321.789,"end":340.582,"text":"我們的從業人員跟我們的媒體產業大大量的這個大量的這個內容啊全部都被拿去用了啊他們變成做白工這一堆臉嘛現在碰到是什麼是臉書跟google他們還收入的這很大的一個廣告哎啊老實講你說他們有沒有不是有沒有有些護士你知道"},{"start":343.476,"end":365.663,"text":"那個Google曾經播了三年三億三億對不對它也成立了一個基金希望在這個媒體上他們不是沒有做啦對啦所以是可以是可以往前走當然就是這個金額太小了欸因為Google跟那個Meta他們一年在台灣賺到的錢可能就是400億以上的廣告費嘛你再去提一個一年一億所以那時候很多專家寫者就很生氣啊那個"},{"start":367.003,"end":384.96,"text":"我現在在提醒你就是說你不要變成說好像是一個不公平的狀況下大輕小強强凌弱的時候然後媒體都已經發出了要求要解決的聲音了我覺得政府要幫他們挺住要幫他們挺住而且你現在今天我一早上聽下來你這樣一直覺得說走到現在好像是"},{"start":386.209,"end":410.162,"text":"澳洲跟加拿大變成他們後來是不是被推翻了也不一定喔這個應該是現在進行式嘛對不對以前曾經解決的問題那現在有一部分就停了還是可以繼續再談啊那更重要的我同意你我同意你如果有高關稅這個風暴那我們可以我們可以早先再開公聽會可是不能停下來好不好我們會開公聽會我們會再繼續跟那另外有一個來來那個公平會的那個主委"},{"start":413.357,"end":436.025,"text":"這次這個議價有可能是一個單一媒體去議價也有可能是一個公會集體去議價嘛對不對這裡面跟你公平會只有關係嘛對不對如果是涉及單一的話不會但是如果是涉及多媒體的話那原則上是我們是認為說這種如果這個媒體的力量如果不足的時候希望大家聯合去跟一個去談的時候"},{"start":437.405,"end":455.378,"text":"我們公民法裡頭這15條聯合行為例外許可我們可以透過這個例外許可可以讓他們去聯合起來去跟Google去談這個事情這就是很積極認識嘛對不對幫我們台灣啊幫我們這個媒體啊而且另外我們在條文裡面我們明定了一條啦就是我們會免除"},{"start":456.138,"end":483.153,"text":"公交法裡面對於業者透過聯合組織或者是跟這個工會或者是平台去議價的一個禁止條款我們在修法裡面我們會把它拿掉好不好就是明定這個東西不要讓我們媒體要去聯合議價的時候有碰到這個困擾好不好然後更重要的是你剛才說的我這很好你更積極面了嘛我們去處理消極面你現在積極面更去幫他們OK好謝謝宮平那我最後問一個那個NCC主委的來好"},{"start":486.147,"end":502.133,"text":"你今天早上被問到好幾次啊你都講說有些媒體已經去去議價了嘛基本上碰到了滿大的問題所以我具體做三個三個要求做三個要求這NCC要幫助我們的業者第一個要揭露要揭露"},{"start":503.22,"end":524.125,"text":"Google跟臉書他們新聞內容流量貢獻度等於說你在做用我們的媒體的這個內容的時候這個貢獻度到底有多少他要公開揭露這個你應該試著去做一個要求這個我們在條文裡面我們也會明確的要求第二個要求要揭露新聞排序或者是你推波演算法的邏輯跟變動"},{"start":525.845,"end":546.121,"text":"就你今天早上講的啦本來去談這個月是一百萬突然下個月變五十萬那問題出在什麼地方就因為沒有公開透明嘛對不對所以要求第一項跟第二項另外第三項我們明定明定平台不得沒有預警的去修改新聞的這個內容我們現在不是只有做白宮給他們用欸有時候內容要給我們亂改欸對不對"},{"start":548.645,"end":569.744,"text":"這個應該也是我們要去要求要不然這會導致我們整個媒體有時候形象受損或者我們媒體的流量也會大幅的下滑好不好後續立法的時候我們會把這個重大議題跟平台來溝通所以我們各個部會做我們該做的事情我們很期待讓我們的辛苦的新聞工作人員"},{"start":570.965,"end":592.747,"text":"得到他們該拿到的 不要再繼續做白狗那希望我們的產業 媒體的產業也能夠整個賤錢起來現在媒體真的是很慘啦你看每個人都在伸手跟政府要錢弄到後來拿我們人民的納稅錢給他有時候還要洗你的腦 這樣都不好我們只要把這個法好好修媒體醫治法修好 對我們整個媒體的產業環境啊遞釋錢的這個賤錢 對我們民主發展會有很大幫助那這會很努力 好不好 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":921,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時32分）謝謝主席製造這個「笑果」，我們請數發部黃部長、NCC陳主委，還有公平會毛主秘。"],["主席：數發部黃部長、NCC陳代主委、公平會。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，已經問了一個早上了，我覺得我們現在應該來解決問題。"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["張委員啓楷：我們共同來解決問題。關於新聞有價，還要有一個公平的環境，臺灣的媒體環境要能夠健全，這個大家都有共識，我們共同來努力。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["張委員啓楷：經過一個早上我們發現有個比較嚴重的問題，就是你提到川普的高關稅衝擊，事實上從昨天開始，我覺得臺灣有很多專家學者，還有很多很有智慧的朋友馬上就去解決這個問題。他說真正會對高關稅有衝擊的其實就是你要抽它的數位稅，設置特種基金，對不對？我覺得如果要解決問題，這部分我們就可以先把它停下來，可是讓媒體有強制議價法，我覺得還是可以推的，好不好？我們還是往這個方向走。台灣民眾黨的條文很清楚，我們本來是雙管齊下，有基金、有強制議價。有關強制議價，我清楚講一下，我們的條文都已經明確講了，你要讓媒體有一個強制議價的作法，讓我們可以跟平臺去談，就是要給它一個法律的依據，程序是要明定的，這樣你才能夠有一個方法、依據跟強制力去跟Google、Meta談，你就給它一個法源。我更進一步來講，他們現在有些是個別的，例如東森電視臺、TVBS電視臺或者自由跟聯合，他們自己就已經去談了，對不對？我是希望我們在這次的法裡面可以明定政府到底怎麼幫忙，像你們這段時間跟Google都有聯絡，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["張委員啓楷：這方面我覺得政府要多幫我們的媒體跟從業人員。老實講，你看今天一早大家來這邊備詢，我們的新聞從業人員多辛苦，早上都在這裡了，可是現在我們碰到什麼問題？他們那麼辛苦在工作，可能到後來也是做白工啊！結果Google就把他們的東西拿去用，然後就收了廣告，所以不只是媒體要有價，老實說不公平嘛！我相信這是全世界應該共同要解決這個問題，所以不能夠卡住，我覺得不能夠因噎廢食，我們現在有一個共識，就跟你每天都要吃飯一樣，但你已經發現這不公平了，對我們的媒體從業人員不公平，對我們媒體產業也不公平，政府有責任要多幫忙。"],["黃部長彥男：對，不過委員講的問題的確是問題，也就是我們一直很關心的問題，只是對於所謂媒體強制議價的方法經過這兩、三年在澳洲實施，目前2024年我們講的這兩個大媒體Google、Meta都不再付錢，這就變成是一個問題，在澳洲事實上我們從經濟學……"],["張委員啓楷：它怎麼？他大欺小、強凌弱，對不對？變成我們臺灣的媒體受到影響，我們要去力爭。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有錯，我也接受，我們現在剛好碰到一個高關稅的風暴，可是我們不能停下來，不能因噎廢食停下來，我們還是要去做、要去爭取嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["張委員啓楷：而且你看到我們台積電都去投資1,000億美金，一開始美國還不是弄了32%。"],["黃部長彥男：對，但是……"],["張委員啓楷：我們要爭取自己該有的，自己不能夠先放棄！"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，現在是兩個問題，一個就是到底強制議價法是不是真能夠幫助我們臺灣的新聞媒體，現在這個東西從澳洲的兩年經驗看起來開始要打問號，因為澳洲已經停止，包括the Economist經濟學人雜誌都說加拿大跟澳洲這個法是失敗的，主要其實我們在講所謂的大平臺就兩個，一個叫Google，一個叫Meta，Meta已經到處不付錢，Google也要撤出澳洲的付費機制，所以這個法到底是幫助了local媒體，還是傷害local媒體？這個就是讓我們非常猶疑的原因，因為我們看到的是並沒有幫助，所以我才講就是……"],["張委員啓楷：等一下，部長，你說你看到的是沒有幫助？我們看到的為什麼是有幫助？"],["黃部長彥男：沒有，那是經過兩年，但是我說2024年……"],["張委員啓楷：他們做了某些停止不代表以後不會往前走……"],["黃部長彥男：我們有跟這兩家……"],["張委員啓楷：不要完全負面去看，我講兩個很重要的事情，部長，你有注意去年10月我們的平面媒體、電子媒體跟數位媒體共同做了一個媒體共同聲明，你有看到這個聲明嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對，但是……"],["張委員啓楷：聲明裡面就講到三個事情，一個就是我們的從業人員跟我們的媒體產業大量的內容全部都被拿去用了，他們變成做白工，這是第一個。第二個，現在碰到的是什麼？臉書跟Google的廣告收入還很大，老實講，你說他們有沒有……"],["黃部長彥男：不是……"],["張委員啓楷：我講給你聽，部長，你知道Google曾經撥了三年3億對媒體成立一個基金，他們不是沒有做啦！"],["黃部長彥男：對啦！"],["張委員啓楷：所以是可以往前走，當然這個金額太小了，因為Google跟Meta他們一年在臺灣賺到的錢可能就是400億以上的廣告費，你現在提一年1億，所以那時候很多專家學者就很生氣，我現在是要提醒你，不要變成好像是不公平的狀況，當大欺小、強凌弱的時候，媒體都已經發出要求解決的聲音，我覺得政府要幫他們挺住，而且今天我一早上聽下來，你一直覺得走到現在好像澳洲跟加拿大後來是不是被推翻了？不一定喔，這個應該是現在進行式，對不對？以前曾經解決問題，現在有一部分停了，還是可以繼續再談，更重要的，我同意你……"],["黃部長彥男：所以……"],["張委員啓楷：我同意你，如果有高關稅這個風暴，我們可以先開公聽會，可是不能停下來，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：我們會開公聽會，我們會繼續溝通。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，請問公平會主秘，這次的議價有可能是單一媒體去議價，也有可能是由公會集體去議價，對不對？"],["毛主任秘書浩吉：是。"],["張委員啓楷：這裡面跟公平會有關係，對不對？"],["毛主任秘書浩吉：如果是涉及單一的話不會，但是如果是涉及多媒體的話，原則上我們是認為如果媒體力量不足，需要大家聯合跟其中一個平臺去談的時候，公平法第十五條聯合行為有例外許可，我們可以透過這個例外許可讓他們聯合起來去跟Google談這個事情。"],["張委員啓楷：這就是很積極任事，幫我們臺灣、幫我們媒體。另外我們在條文裡面明定了一條，就是我們會免除公交法裡面對於業者透過聯合組織或是公會或是平臺去議價的禁止條款，我們在修法裡會把它拿掉，好不好？就是明定這個部分，不要讓我們媒體去聯合議價的時候碰到這個困擾，好不好？更重要的是你剛才說的，我覺得很好，是更積極面的，我們是處理消極面，你現在是更積極面去幫他們。OK！好，謝謝公平會。","最後，我問NCC主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：你今天早上被問到好幾次，你說有些媒體已經去議價了，結果他們碰到了蠻大的問題，所以我具體做三個要求，請NCC要幫助我們的業者。第一個，要揭露Google跟臉書的「新聞內容流量貢獻度」。等於你在用我們媒體內容的時候，貢獻度到底有多少，它要公開揭露，這個你應該試著去做要求，我們在條文裡面也會明確要求。第二個，要求要揭露新聞排序或推播演算法的邏輯與變動。就是你今天早上說的，本來這個月去談是100萬，突然下個月變50萬，問題出在什麼地方？因為沒有公開透明，對不對？所以我要求第一項跟第二項。另外第三項，明定平臺不得無預警去修改新聞內容。我們現在不是只有做白工給他們用，有時候還給我們亂改內容，這個應該也是我們該去要求的，要不然會導致整個媒體形象受損，或者媒體的流量也會大幅下滑，好不好？NCC來做這三件事。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，在後續立法的時候，我們會把這個列入重大議題跟平臺來溝通。"],["張委員啓楷：好，OK，所以各個部會做我們該做的事情，我們很期待讓辛苦的新聞工作人員得到他們該拿到的，不要再繼續做白工，希望媒體的產業也能夠整個健全起來。現在媒體真的是很慘，你看每個人都在伸手跟政府要錢，弄到後來拿我們人民的納稅錢給它，有時候還要洗你的腦，這樣都不好，我們只要把這個法好好修，媒體議價法修好，對我們整個媒體的產業環境、第四權的健全及民主發展會有很大幫助，一起來努力，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝張啓楷委員。","現在請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 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謝謝主席 麻煩有請NCC代理主委好 NCC陳代主委委員好主委好 NCC事實上癱瘓非常久了啦理由非常的多 我為什麼說NCC癱瘓很久了我等一下進一步 資訊的內容會進一步的說明先從第一步開始NCC組織法修正通過生效了以後搞了五個月"},{"start":30.834,"end":58.126,"text":"搞了五個月新的NCC主委提名名單沒有辦法送到立法院來左榮泰之前總諮詢的時候承諾四月底以前要送來今天已經五月一號了什麼時候會送來還是你也不知道我是看媒體報導這禮拜應該有機會這禮拜應該有機會今天禮拜四所以剩下明天禮拜五一個主委提名搞五個月送不出來"},{"start":59.654,"end":72.536,"text":"誰在台灣NCC是行政部門在台灣NCC還是立法部門在台灣NCC你覺得呢一個主委的提名單搞五個月送不出來誰在台灣NCC"},{"start":81.938,"end":94.752,"text":"行政院嘛不關你的事啦所以是行政院院長在台灣NCC這個話你講不太出來沒關係接下來就關你的事啦今天事啦從一開始"},{"start":96.127,"end":116.863,"text":"在生設執照取得執照的過程當中政治的黑手就直接伸到NCC裡面去整個醜聞臭不可聞結果我們的NCC在前後任主委交鄉接棒之下幫金電視的醜聞cover"},{"start":118.723,"end":141.787,"text":"超過了三年超過了三年有很多立法委員不敢得罪媒體所以可能不敢講怕被媒體追殺嘛一天到晚在PO一些抹黑抹黃的新聞但我從來不像這種惡勢力低頭的現在今天是從拿到執照到現在過多久了"},{"start":146.559,"end":172.592,"text":"應該 委員這邊的資料應該看起來超過三年了嘛你自己業務要鎖啦超過了三年 過了三年要不要舉行評鑑要現在有在做嗎程序進行中會不會認真的評鑑 還是打算繼續放水不會 都是依法辦理評鑑的過程當中 財務的狀況要不要評鑑"},{"start":176.723,"end":197.742,"text":"依據這個法是評鑑的項目之一好沒關係喔今天把我在這邊的質詢當作我公開質疑的資訊交給所有的評鑑委員做參考我為什麼這樣講這個電視台一開始在聲色的時候兩位我非常敬重"},{"start":199.153,"end":221.451,"text":"新聞媒體界的前輩一個王維堅老師一個林立雲老師啊他們提出了質地有深的不同意見書啊有風骨我給他們很高啊的肯定當初在提不同意見書的時候啊就直指啊他們的財務狀況真的撐得下去嗎畫大餅畫成這個樣子真的做得出來嗎"},{"start":223.695,"end":247.581,"text":"這個當初啊兩位前委員啊所提出的不同意見書都是公開啊的資訊當初他們提出這樣子的質疑的時候提出這樣子的質疑的時候因為喔這個是當初在申涉的時候重要的條件之一嘛他不是要成立民間版的公共電視嗎要成立民間版的公共電視就財務狀況出了這麼大的問題現在進電視啊的實收資本額有多少"},{"start":253.749,"end":260.934,"text":"核准是20億他有申請30億核准是20億嘛你知不知道20億什麼時候燒完了知道嗎沒有很清楚沒有很清楚現在不是正在辦評鑑嗎財務狀況不是評鑑重點項目之一嗎我可不可以請我們處長來補充可以"},{"start":277.234,"end":306.2,"text":"他資料送進來我們要還沒有進出審會議所以現在還在程序的初階段實質的內容都還搞不清楚就對了來我給NCC主委看當初NCC評估通過了財務規劃你現在在螢幕的左手邊看到的這個深色營運計畫及補正17頁當中的第4頁這個是NCC你們當初內部審查的時候所做的PPT"},{"start":307.062,"end":335.191,"text":"我不曉得你看過沒有但我可以跟你保證這不是我偽造變造的這個是你們當初在審查的時候NCC內部啦你們早上夜館單位要跟主委報告的時候啊所做PPT的內容好第一個當初有做很多評估嘛有做很多預測嘛但我當初看到這個東西的時候我就發現根本在鬼扯"},{"start":336.397,"end":361.471,"text":"什麼叫做根本在鬼扯啊來現在每年平均稅前淨損多少錢知道嗎不是很清楚股東權益佔股本比多少知道嗎委員這邊所列五項目前手上有沒有確確的掌握好沒有關係你現在手上沒有資料沒有關係但我要提醒NCC喔這次不要再放水了"},{"start":362.598,"end":386.029,"text":"這次不要再放水了我上面所講的這個東西啊你們好好回去堆堆看當初你們在發這個執照的時候內部評估怎麼做的做得笑死人啊我今天趕在國會殿堂啊說你們當初做的內部評估笑死人啊右邊我所列出來的這五個問題負債比多少流動比多少"},{"start":387.054,"end":415.421,"text":"收入有很乎評估嗎你們在今年在做評鑑的時候這些事情都應該做嘛 對不對會在考量範圍內好好做齁好好做為什麼因為10億的實收資本額啊其實2022年年底啊就燒完了這個數字不是我編出來的是他們內部的他們內部啊自己在2022年年底的時候估出來的"},{"start":417.472,"end":425.734,"text":"2022年的時候,20億就燒完了現在問題來了,2023年、2024年到現在已經是2025年的5月1號了嘛過去兩年四個月,錢從哪裡來?從天上掉下來嗎?說他們要來幫你升級、幫你增資你知不知道他一個月虧多少錢?"},{"start":442.27,"end":459.776,"text":"照委員的資料,除到他3年的話大概會21除以3年的話,一年差不多6億多對嘛,所以你還是有概念嘛一年要虧6億多啦一個月大概5000萬啦現在問題來了21燒完了以後,現在還有10幾億錢到底哪裡來?評鑑的時候好好做評鑑的時候好好做為什麼?"},{"start":469.042,"end":478.376,"text":"之前在整個發照的過程當中NCC內神通外鬼檢舉人的資料 指證歷例啊"},{"start":479.928,"end":507.066,"text":"檢舉人的資料只剩歷歷啊結果搞了半天NCC到目前為止還有在查嗎還是查無不法謝謝指教症風體系已經查完然後相關的這個相關人大概也有提出檢調那邊那邊在檢調已經細數案中是 你是不是知道檢調從案件細數到現在稅了幾年你大概不知道啦這個責任也不是你要扛啊"},{"start":508.928,"end":524.33,"text":"睡了兩年多啊睡了兩年多啊台灣的司法現在是變成怎麼樣有執政黨撐腰啊當執政黨當英犬當打手啊有關係就沒關係啊案子直接放在那邊給他睡啊"},{"start":527.348,"end":551.989,"text":"這個事情我公開講過非常多次了啦但涉及到的是什麼之前的洩密我看新的NCC應該也沒有辦法再查下去啦提求踢給減掉就好啦但問題是什麼當初給的行政處分是有負負擔的喔是有負負擔的喔如果發現了具有廢紙條件的負擔的話應該要怎麼處理"},{"start":554.878,"end":582.197,"text":"最嚴重的時候可以廢止原來的許可最嚴重要廢止原來的許可嘛請你們好好的查下去為什麼他在申請增加資本額的時候他要講明白嘛說錢到底哪裡來的嘛是不是本來八大股東給的嘛還是有新的股東嘛之前我已經公開檢舉過很多次了連出賣股份的股東自己都承認了"},{"start":583.889,"end":604.938,"text":"陳泰銘自己都承認啦我股份早就賣掉啦但是NCC查無不法根本報告在他們上架的時候我們就請他們提出切結那相關的 切結有用嗎切結有用嗎他要負法律責任好來你們後來有沒有請陳泰銘來說明"},{"start":607.295,"end":631.165,"text":"他當天是沒有來 但是他有委託書對 那他的委託書上面寫什麼就不關你NCC的事 你沒有權利查碼這個就是我在講的啊你們NCC面對這些大財團大老闆 軟趴趴你叫我來 我不來啊 叫一個律師發一個函給你啊說這是我的隱私 我的財務資料 我為什麼要跟你講當初在騙執照的時候"},{"start":636.041,"end":642.846,"text":"什麼都敢講 直到騙到了以後 要開始查是不是私下賣股不敢去你們那邊說謊連去都不去這位大老闆很囂張啊非常囂張啊我上面打的每一個字啊 都陳泰銘自己講的"},{"start":661.806,"end":687.476,"text":"你主管機關去查資金流向嘛 錢從哪裡來 錢誰給的 錢給什麼人不就查出來了錢送到葉國一那邊 錢送到陳志遠那邊 錢送到陳靜才那邊這樣不就查出來了這一塊我們當初也要喊起相關機關協力然後呢沒有一個確確 就是沒有確確的違反對嘛所以現在到底在玩什麼"},{"start":688.632,"end":715.717,"text":"到底在玩什麼 當事人對外自己都承認了到NCC那邊查無不法整個爛攤子一直延續到今天整個爛攤子一直延續到今天啊我希望這一次三年的評鑑到了三年評鑑到了整個營運計畫書包括當初所做的承諾是不是有切實的履行我希望這次NCC評鑑好好做"},{"start":716.684,"end":739.298,"text":"他目前是有兩個負擔沒有到位一個是首語新聞一個國際新聞我們已經給他罰代金他現在提起訴訟在台北高興了沒有沒有關係啦反正最後這次評鑑的結果社會大眾拭目以待希望NCC這一次你是現在雖然是代理的主委基本上面依法行政還是很重要的事"},{"start":740.848,"end":748.703,"text":"不要讓今天是覺得說他有民進黨撐腰就可以為所欲為啊可以嗎我們的一切依法行政OK好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":858,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時19分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請NCC代理主委。"],["主席：請NCC陳代主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好！"],["黃委員國昌：主委好！NCC事實上癱瘓非常久了，理由非常的多，我為什麼說NCC癱瘓很久了？我等一下質詢的內容會進一步的說明。","先從第一步開始，NCC組織法修正通過生效了以後，搞了5個月，新的NCC主委提名名單還沒有辦法送到立法院來，卓榮泰之前總質詢的時候承諾4月底以前要送來，今天已經5月1日了，什麼時候會送來，還是你也不知道？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我是看媒體報導，這個禮拜應該有機會。"],["黃委員國昌：這個禮拜應該有機會，今天禮拜四，所以剩下明天禮拜五。一個主委提名，搞了5個月送不出來，誰在癱瘓NCC？是行政部門在癱瘓NCC，還是立法部門在癱瘓NCC，你覺得呢？一個主委的提名名單搞5個月送不出來，誰在癱瘓NCC？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，委員的提名職權不在NCC這邊。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院嘛！對，不關你的事啦！所以是行政院院長在癱瘓NCC。這個話你講不太出來，沒關係！接下來就關你的事了。","鏡電視從一開始在申設執照、取得執照的過程當中，政治的黑手就直接伸到NCC裡面去，整個醜聞臭不可聞，臭不可聞！結果NCC在前後任主委交相接棒之下，幫鏡電視的醜聞cover超過了3年。有很多立法委員不敢得罪媒體，所以可能不敢講，怕被媒體追殺，一天到晚po一些抹黑、抹黃的新聞，但我從來不向這種惡勢力低頭的。鏡電視從拿到執照到現在過多久了？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員這邊的資料看起來應該超過……"],["黃委員國昌：3年了嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["黃委員國昌：你自己的業務要熟啦！超過了3年，過了3年，要不要舉行評鑑？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：要。"],["黃委員國昌：現在有在做嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：程序進行中。"],["黃委員國昌：程序進行中？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["黃委員國昌：會不會認真的評鑑，還是打算繼續放水？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不會，都是依法辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：好，評鑑的過程當中，財務的狀況要不要評鑑？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：依據這個法，那是評鑑的項目之一。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒關係！把今天我在這邊的質詢當作我公開質疑的資訊，交給所有的評鑑委員參考。我為什麼這樣講？這個電視臺一開始在申設的時候，有兩位我非常敬重新聞媒體界的前輩，一個是王維菁老師，另一個是林麗雲老師，他們提出了擲地有聲的不同意見書，有風骨，我給他們很高的肯定，當初在提不同意見書就直指他們的財務狀況真的撐得下去嗎？畫大餅畫成這個樣子，真的做得出來嗎？當初兩位前委員所提出的不同意見書都是公開的資訊，他們提出這樣子的質疑，因為這是申設重要的條件之一。他不是要成立民間版的公共電視嗎？要成立民間版的公共電視，結果財務狀況出了這麼大的問題，現在鏡電視的實收資本額有多少？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：核准是20億，他有申請30億。"],["黃委員國昌：核准是20億，你知不知道20億什麼時候燒完了？知道嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有很清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有很清楚，現在不是正在辦評鑑嗎？財務狀況不是評鑑重點項目之一嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我可不可以請處長來補充？"],["黃委員國昌：可以。"],["林處長慧玲：他把資料送進來，還沒有進初審會議。"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在還在程序的初階段，實質的內容都還搞不清楚，就對了？我給NCC主委看當初NCC評估通過的財務規劃，你現在在螢幕左手邊看到申設營運計畫及補正17頁當中的第4頁，這是NCC當初內部審查所做的PPT，我不曉得你看過沒有，但我可以跟你保證，這不是我偽造、變造的，而是你們NCC內部當初在審查找業管單位跟主委報告所做PPT的內容。第一個、當初有做很多評估、有做很多預測，但我看到這個東西就發現根本在鬼扯！什麼叫做根本在鬼扯？現在每年平均稅前淨損多少錢，知道嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不是很清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：股東權益占股本比多少，知道嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員所列五項，目前我手上沒有確切的掌握……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係！你現在手上沒有資料，沒有關係，但我要提醒NCC，這次不要再放水了！我上面所講的這個東西，你們好好回去對對看。當初你們在發這個執照，內部評估怎麼做的？做得笑死人！我今天敢在國會殿堂說，你們當初做的內部評估笑死人，我所列出來的這五個問題，包括負債比多少？流動比多少？收入有合乎評估嗎？你們今年在做評鑑的時候，這些事情都應該做，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：會在考量範圍內。"],["黃委員國昌：好好做！為什麼？因為20億的實收資本額其實2022年底就燒完了，這個數字不是我編出來的，是他們內部自己在2022年底估出來的。2022年20億就燒完了，現在問題來了，2023年、2024年到現在已經是2025年的5月1號了，過去兩年四個月錢從哪裡來？從天上掉下來嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：他們有來申請辦理增資。"],["黃委員國昌：你知不知道他一個月虧多少錢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：照委員的資料除以三年的話，20億除以三年的話，一年差不多六億多。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以你還是有概念嘛！一年要虧六億多，一個月大概5,000萬，現在問題來了，20億燒完了以後，現在還有十幾億，錢到底哪裡來？評鑑的時候好好做！為什麼？之前在整個發照的過程當中，NCC內神通外鬼，檢舉人的資料指正歷歷，結果搞了半天，NCC到目前為止還有在查嗎？還是查無不法，謝謝指教？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：政風體系已經查完了，相關人也有提供檢調，檢調已經繫屬案中。"],["黃委員國昌：你知不知道檢調從案件繫屬到現在睡了幾年？你大概不知道，這個責任也不是你要扛。睡了兩年多！臺灣的司法現在變成怎麼樣？有執政黨撐腰，當執政黨的鷹犬、打手，有關係就沒關係，案子直接放在那邊給他睡。這個事情我公開講過非常多次了，但涉及到的是什麼？之前的洩密，我看新的NCC應該也沒有辦法再查下去，皮球踢給檢調就好了，但問題是什麼？當初給的行政處分是有附負擔的，如果發現了未履行具有廢止條件的負擔，應該要怎麼處理？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：最嚴重的時候可以廢止原來的許可。"],["黃委員國昌：最嚴重的話要廢止原來的許可，請你們好好查下去，為什麼？他在申請增加資本額的時候，他要講明白，說錢到底哪裡來的，是不是本來八大股東給的，還是有新的股東？之前我已經公開檢舉過很多次了，連出賣股份的股東陳泰銘自己都承認早就賣掉了，但是NCC查無不法！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：在他們上架的時候，我們有請他們提出切結，相關的股東都有切結。"],["黃委員國昌：切結有用嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：他要負法律責任。"],["黃委員國昌：你們後來有沒有請陳泰銘來說明？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：他當天沒有來，但是他有委託書。"],["黃委員國昌：對，他的委託書上面寫什麼？就不關NCC的事，你沒有權力查嘛！這個就是我在講的，你們NCC面對這些大財團、大老闆就軟趴趴，你叫他來，他不來，叫一個律師發一個函給你，說這是他的隱私、他的財務資料，為什麼要跟你講？當初在騙執照什麼都敢講，執照騙到了以後，要開始查是不是私下賣股，不敢去你們那邊說謊，連去都不去，這些大老闆很囂張、非常囂張！我上面打的每一個字都陳泰銘自己講的，主管機關去查資金流向，錢從哪裡來、錢誰給的、錢給什麼人，不就查出來了？錢送到葉國一那邊、錢送到陳致遠那邊、錢送到陳進財那邊，這樣不就查出來了？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這一塊我們當初也有函請相關機關協力。"],["黃委員國昌：然後呢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有確切的違法事證。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以現在到底在玩什麼？當事人自己都對外承認了，到NCC那邊卻查無不法，整個爛攤子一直延續到今天。三年的評鑑到了，整個營運計畫書包括當初所做的承諾是不是有切實履行？我希望這一次NCC評鑑好好做！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：他目前有兩個負擔沒有到位，一個是手語新聞，另一個是國際新聞，我們已經給他罰怠金，他現在提起訴訟在臺北高行。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，反正這次評鑑的結果，社會大眾拭目以待，希望NCC這一次……你現在雖然是代理主委，基本上，依法行政還是很重要的事，不要讓鏡電視覺得有民進黨撐腰就可以為所欲為，可以嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們一切依法行政。"],["黃委員國昌：OK。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌總召。","接下來，請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案；\n六、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00002"}}},{"id":"160907","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160907","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc08216e9afc0e827182bf9a8039e28b7cac64ac1618a5937c6fd113443f1ac9aa35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:12:15 - 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謝謝主席我可以直接請那個述發部的林次長嗎林次長好 謝謝"},{"start":14.52,"end":33.753,"text":"市長午安 我其實從這個新聞溢價法媒體溢價法 我其實直接想跟你討論其實就是四個字叫做內容有價因為不管是在過去新聞媒體時代或者是現在所謂的大型語言模型就是所謂大家日常現在用的非常習慣的chat GPT其實這些語料模型背後都需要有意義的"},{"start":34.253,"end":57.161,"text":"資料是那我們來看一下現在的狀態是這樣來下一張在台灣其實二零二五年的一月二十雜誌公會他們推內容有價侵權有罪這件事情而且有相關的訴訟正在進行我相信你是清楚的我就不再贅述其實不只新聞媒體的內容有價過去傳統出版產業的內容也是有價的那在訓練這些餘料模型上來往下看"},{"start":57.961,"end":79.697,"text":"我們回到加拿大他們有這個負面的例子就是跟台灣一樣他們控告OpenAI在未經許可而且沒有付費的情況下盜取新聞機構數以百萬計受版權保護的文章於是呢這五個新聞機構就對OpenAI提起訴訟那目前訴訟正在進行中這個是比較負面的例子跟台灣一樣可是我們也看到正面的例子我們來看一下"},{"start":80.217,"end":105.87,"text":"Chubb GPT花錢跟很多英國媒體從衛報開始整個大型媒體集團開始用付費的方法授權使用這個資料尤其在Chubb GPT的Search版我們看到他們所用的都是這些我們認為非常精緻的語料資料餵給這個模型然後於是產出的內容就變得相對有意義那其實很多使用者也都大聲叫好但是我要說"},{"start":106.59,"end":125.157,"text":"有訴訟的部分也有合理授權 合法授權 付錢的部分所以看起來這件事情此時此刻正在世界上發生好 下一張我看到速發部在3月3號有這個新聞稿我相信這應該是速發部主動提供的次長您在相關的媒體報導中 您說"},{"start":126.497,"end":148.17,"text":"建立台湾主权AI训练的语料库松绑著作权法而且要免费提供训练语料给国内国外的大型语言模型让他们使用台湾的资料减少AI厂商跟内容拥有者的著作权纠纷我从一路讲到现在意思就是说我们台湾的书发布看起来"},{"start":148.61,"end":172.908,"text":"知道世界的趨勢就是有訴訟的部分也有合法合理授權的部分看起來速發部現在在這件事情上想要採一個角色就是協助內容擁有者跟語料廠商AI廠商找到一個合作的可能性而不要去採進訴訟這件事情所以您剛剛說在這個新聞稿當說要免費提供訓練語料我想要說一下這個idea是怎麼來的"},{"start":174.64,"end":191.195,"text":"因為我們在於說我們拿一些資料去訓練AI的model的時候到底這些AI model的廠商要不要付費來取得這些資料給這些內容擁有者這件事情本身是一個兩難一方面就是說那個內容的擁有者他覺得說我覺得要收錢"},{"start":192.196,"end":207.753,"text":"可是對於這些大型的AI模型來講的話其實我也跟他們溝通過他們對於說使用台灣的資料來訓練他們的模型他們事實上是很有疑慮的事實上不是因為他們付不起錢而是他們擔心會侵權"},{"start":209.435,"end":232.441,"text":"因為他們需要而且他們覺得說他要花很多的時間去跟台灣的內容擁有者去做那個談判他們擔心的是這個部分那結果造成的狀況呢是說像那個ChatterGPT或者是LAMA或者是這種外國的模型他在選擇那個中文語料庫的時候他們常常是拿中國的語料庫因為中國比較不注重"},{"start":232.981,"end":260.901,"text":"那個知識財產權所以那個變得比較容易比較沒有法律風險那結果最後的結果是很不好的就是當我們用中文問問題的時候可能就會產出Garbage in garbage out的問題所以我先肯定書法部在這件事情上先踩住了一個立場就是要協助所謂的內容擁有者跟國內外的AI廠商但問題也就來了當你已經先喊出想辦法先找到免費授權"},{"start":261.821,"end":278.998,"text":"或者是沒有著作權為優先各式各樣的語料資料我覺得這是很重要的一步但是我自己來自於所謂內容產業界我必須要說台灣的內容產業界不論是來下一張不論是好先直接跳下一張我要說台灣的"},{"start":279.839,"end":301.56,"text":"生產內容的這些創作者不管是像楊雙子最近得了美國國家圖書獎或者是很棒的動畫廠商或者是我們在波羅納得大獎的插畫家這些都還只是我簡單的舉例這些有意義的而且高品質的素材其實可能才是下一步速發步你們的挑戰也就是我們剛開始先促成了這個合作的橋樑可是"},{"start":302.681,"end":320.413,"text":"當餘料廠商這些AI廠商他們說我們想要更多很棒的資料協助我們產出有意義的內容的時候公司的發展是有價值的速發部未來要如何協助協同文化部協助這些內容擁有者真的可以找到一個合理的對談模式之餘對這些AI廠商"},{"start":322.543,"end":335.5,"text":"首先在政策上面我們是主張就是說如果沒有經過正式的授權的話這些語言模型它不能隨便拿台灣的這些語調去當然這個非常非常重要免得遇到像加拿大那個訴訟一樣"},{"start":338.043,"end":354.459,"text":"除了那些免費的我們提供免費的以外我們認為說高品質的語料其實應該是正式取得授權而且付費那我們就想辦法在法律上面我們跟文化部一起合作想辦法建立出一個規則然後一個計價的方法降低這個"},{"start":355.68,"end":381.849,"text":"這個negotiation的那個成本這樣子的話不管是台灣或者是國外的這些那個大型元模型LLM他們就會更方便更快速的取得這些這些餘料就如同我們剛才所講的其實他們真正在乎的不是他付多少錢因為對他們來講這些錢不是很大的金額他們在乎的是這個那個協商的成本以及這個法律清錢的那個可能性"},{"start":382.049,"end":396.718,"text":"還有就是跨國文化之間的不同啦我必須要這麼說你讓這些open air的廠商他到台灣來要找到這些內容擁有者直接對話其實是困難的但是我透過速發部跟文化部合作的平台真的在假以時日我們真的希望在台灣我們可以聽到很棒的case"},{"start":397.378,"end":425.129,"text":"就是像他們跟衛報買相關內容一樣作為繁中語料在整個OpenAI的模型或是其他廠商的模型當中是有意義的所以我這邊是快速雖然你在新聞稿上說這個其實需要花一些時間來我們下一張最後我的建議是說我們有沒有機會請書發部跟專家學者受到影響產業代表制裁局 國科會 文化部等相關單位嚴寧相關的進度我希望有機會在三個月內召開會議六個月內提供相關規劃報告是有機會的嗎"},{"start":427.597,"end":440.05,"text":"是我們報告員我們會朝這個方向努力好我想所有內容業者跟所謂的AI廠商都非常期待在部會的協調之下真的幫他們找到一個合理的而且合法的對話窗口好嗎好謝謝次長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":818,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時12分）謝謝主席，我可以直接請數發部的林次長嗎？"],["主席：好，請林次長。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝。"],["林次長宜敬：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長午安。我想就這個新聞媒體議價法直接跟你討論，其實就是四個字叫做「內容有價」，因為不管是在過去新聞媒體時代，或是現在所謂的大型語言模型，也就是大家現在日常用得非常習慣的ChatGPT，其實這些語料模型背後都需要有意義的資料。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們來看一下現在的狀態，在臺灣，2025年1月20日雜誌公會推「內容有價、侵權有罪」這件事情，而且有相關的訴訟正在進行，我相信你是清楚的……"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：我就不再贅述。其實不只新聞媒體的內容有價，過去傳統出版產業的內容也是有價的。","在訓練這些語料模型上，我們看到加拿大，他們有這個負面的例子，就是跟臺灣一樣，他們控告OpenAI在未經許可而且沒有付費的情況下，盜取新聞機構數以百萬計受版權保護的文章，於是這5個新聞機構就對OpenAI提起訴訟，目前訴訟正在進行中，這個是比較負面的例子，跟臺灣一樣。可是我們也看到正面的例子，ChatGPT花錢跟很多英國媒體合作，從大型的衛報媒體集團開始，他們用付費的方法取得授權使用這個資料，尤其在ChatGPT的Search版，我們看到他們都是用這些我們認為非常精緻的語料資料餵給這個模型，於是產出的內容就變得相對有意義，其實很多使用者也都大聲叫好！我要說有訴訟的部分，也有付錢取得合理合法授權的部分，所以看起來這件事情此時此刻正在世界上發生。","我看到數發部在3月3日有這個新聞稿，我相信這應該是數發部主動提供的。次長，在相關的媒體報導中，您說將建立臺灣主權AI訓練語料庫，鬆綁著作權法，而且要免費提供訓練語料給國內、國外的大型語言模型，讓他們使用臺灣的資料，減少AI廠商與內容擁有者的著作權糾紛。我一路講到現在，這個意思就是臺灣的數發部看起來知道世界的趨勢……"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：就是有訴訟的部分，也有合法合理授權的部分，看起來數發部現在在這件事情上想要採一個角色，就是協助內容擁有者與語料廠商、AI廠商找到一個合作的可能性，而不要踩進訴訟這件事情，所以您在這個新聞稿當中說要免費提供訓練語料。我想要問一下，這個idea是怎麼來的？"],["林次長宜敬：因為我們在於要拿資料去訓練AI 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out的問題……"],["林次長宜敬：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我先肯定數發部在這件事情上先踩住了一個立場，就是要協助所謂的內容擁有者與國內外的AI廠商，但問題也就來了，當你喊出想辦法先找到免費授權或者是沒有著作權的各式各樣語料為優先，我覺得這是很重要的一步，但是我自己來自於所謂的內容產業界，我必須要說，臺灣生產內容的這些創作者，不管是楊双子（他最近得了美國國家圖書獎），或者是很棒的動畫廠商，或者是我們在波隆那得大獎的插畫家，這些都還只是我簡單的舉例，這些有意義而且高品質的素材可能才是下一步數發部的挑戰……"],["林次長宜敬：沒錯，是。"],["陳委員培瑜：也就是我們剛開始先促成了這個合作的橋梁，可是當這些語料廠商、AI廠商說他們想要更多很棒的資料，來產出有意義的內容，讓公司的發展是有價值的，數發部未來要如何協同文化部協助這些內容擁有者真的可以找到一個合理的對談模式對這些AI廠商？"],["林次長宜敬：首先，在政策上面，我們是主張，如果沒有經過正式授權的話，這些語言模型不能隨便拿臺灣的這些語料去……"],["陳委員培瑜：當然，這個非常非常重要，免得遇到像加拿大那個訴訟一樣。"],["林次長宜敬：對，我們剛剛講，除了我們提供免費的以外，我們認為高品質的這些語料應該要正式取得授權，而且付費，在法律上面，我們與文化部一起合作想辦法建立出一個規則、一個計價的方法，降低這個negotiation的成本，這樣子的話，不管是臺灣或者是國外的大型語言模型（LLM），會更方便、更快速的取得這些語料，就如同我們剛才所講的，其實他們真正在乎的不是付多少錢，因為對他們來講，這些錢不是很大的金額，他們在乎的是協商的成本以及法律侵權的可能性……"],["陳委員培瑜：還有就是跨國文化之間的不同……"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：我必須要這麼說，讓像OpenAI這些廠商到臺灣來找到這些內容擁有者直接對話其實是困難的，但如果透過數發部與文化部合作的平臺，假以時日，真的希望在臺灣我們也可以聽到很棒的case，就是像他們跟衛報買相關內容一樣，作為繁中語料，在整個OpenAI的模型或是其他廠商的模型當中，是有意義的，雖然你在新聞稿上說這個其實需要花一些時間……"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：最後我的建議是我們有沒有機會請數發部與專家學者、受到影響的產業代表、智財局、國科會、文化部等相關單位共同研擬相關的進度，我希望有機會在3個月內召開會議，6個月內提供相關規劃報告，是有機會的嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：報告委員，我們會朝這個方向努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我想所有內容業者及所謂的AI廠商都非常期待，在部會的協調之下，真的幫他們找到一個合理而且合法的對話窗口，好嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：是，好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["林次長宜敬：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。","現在請黃國昌總召質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 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謝謝主席 有請我們世衛部王部長好 路委員好"},{"start":10.765,"end":36.002,"text":"好 部長今天主要齁 這個要開始我們有一些法案嘛針對你們所謂媒體溢價相關的一些立法但我們今天早上就看到你們昨天有表達意見嘛就擔心這個可能會造成美國關稅的一個報復嘛齁我看到報紙這樣寫是你的意思嘛齁是我們研究的出來的結果 對研究出來的結果 好那現在 現在有個問題喔"},{"start":38.575,"end":65.601,"text":"這個當然就是川普總統啊讓美國再次偉大各個總統要讓他國家再偉大我是覺得一點錯都沒有好他提出了這個關稅關稅的大戰已經開始了那所有人都知道那是貨品貿易具體的透過空運海運運過去的互相世界的一個貿易具象的貨品貿易那請問一下Google Meta這是貨品貿易還是服務貿易"},{"start":67.722,"end":83.661,"text":"報告委員事實上有個實際的例子就是說美國貿易代表署跟護國家安全顧問他提出一個十項不公平的數位貿易慣例數位貿易也是列為他們一個主要關稅的一個考量所以並沒有不是只有實體的貨品這個數位"},{"start":86.625,"end":98.321,"text":"這個部長能不能有一點我們中華民國我們台灣的立場好不好因為我們聽到Mega美國偉大我們已經背得好熟啦那台灣呢我跟你講齁現在簡單來說"},{"start":101.175,"end":119.198,"text":"川普總統的邏輯很清楚嘛因為主要的一個關稅貨品貿易因為他都是逆差你們這麼多國家賣這麼多東西給我我輸出的巨項的一個貨品這麼少所以對美國不公平所以他要去做一個用關稅才來調整是他一個基本的邏輯"},{"start":120.515,"end":138.802,"text":"那服務貿易抱歉倒過來對台灣來講這種世界貿易的服務貿易的一個形態台灣對美國我們是逆差啊逆差啊就川普這種邏輯就是說抱歉對台灣不公平服務貿易啊"},{"start":139.722,"end":161.383,"text":"沒有 我是希望你們在討論這個事情要有一些立場而且你們在談判的時候總是有一些對我有利的吧還是一去就是趴在地下嗎這本來就Full Money你們賺這麼多錢從不管是Google Meta Netflix你只要講出來的賺錢不用打關稅就來來去去所以這個部分我覺得是應該變成政府"},{"start":161.983,"end":179.029,"text":"一個討價還價的一個籌碼所以我也希望說這個數位部在這方面能夠在談判的時候就你們的立場所有這種服務貿易也能夠來幫忙這個談判能夠促成那我再請教一下你今天有特別提出來說"},{"start":181.883,"end":205.275,"text":"這個溢價相關的一些法案 你有點擔心那當然因為這個關稅大戰是大概上個月才開始那請問一下你去年在幹嘛那個 報委等一下我講完 110年啦 你還沒上任啦你這個整個行政院當時就成立國內產業大型數位平台共融發展協調小組"},{"start":206.724,"end":231.735,"text":"然後到111年 112年總共開了三輪八次會議八次會議平台業者產業不斷去討論那到底遇到什麼問題我不知道可是到了112年的9月最後一場會議開完之後到113年5月20號跟著新政府上任之後你一次會也沒有開嘛"},{"start":232.355,"end":247.69,"text":"我跟你講 去年還沒發生貿易戰嘛你今天寫給我的 我理解 喔 現在發生這個事情那請問一下 你去年在幹什麼還是你壓根子 講一下數位部這個 黃部長你的心態是說我就是不想弄啊 是不是 到底怎麼回事你去年在幹嘛"},{"start":248.371,"end":272.966,"text":"報告委員我一上任就有很多就是對這個問題就很多的這個不管是工協會媒體還有媒體還有包括這個所謂的學者跟我討論這個議題我們一直很關注那我們那時候也在跟這個平台商也有一家不斷的協商那再說因為這一年多的變化蠻大的所以會讓我們原來我們原來我剛上任的時候他們有跟我講說經過這麼多次討論結果"},{"start":275.487,"end":287.399,"text":"那個覺得是租住臨界圈是一個可走的方向但是呢經過這一年也發現租臨界圈也是有它很多的缺點所以變成就是說現在這個這個問題那當然這裡面很多討論剛剛講這個跟我們有很多這種關於這個這個數位這個媒體這個部長我最主要是說"},{"start":298.409,"end":323.949,"text":"112年的9月6號是巴士會議的最後一次你上任之後不管是前朝或這一朝都沒有開因為你是主責單位你要叫NCC相關單位文化部大家一起來討論你既然沒有做那我們非常懷疑在關稅大戰之前你到底認為這是一個麻煩事你也講出來就直接說可是我們看到幾個單位的報告都說"},{"start":324.85,"end":353.93,"text":"這個媒體有價你們都全力支持希望能夠促成那第二個我想請教一下你特別有談了嘛現在世界各國有在進行的譬如說2021最早澳洲完成了那加拿大2023那歐盟他是用另外的著作權的一個臨階權的這種概念去做的有點不一樣但是希望讓新聞是有價的這種的努力跟社群平台去協調那當然我就不一講了"},{"start":354.65,"end":381.821,"text":"那從澳洲也好那Google他有達成那個協議然後提供了資金然後加拿大Google也是提供一年一億加幣一年23億台幣持續五年115億那再來歐盟呢歐盟就是太多國家了談不清楚那Meta的立場現在也清楚啦他就不玩啦"},{"start":382.99,"end":384.732,"text":"談好了也不玩了反正翻臉了就這樣那這種情況我真的是有一個建議"},{"start":391.874,"end":412.42,"text":"我知道你們有很多的一個顧慮啊可是我們也希望是不是讓台灣也有點在這上面有個立場我們是服務貿易被人家賺錢的國家在那邊不吭不哈什麼都不敢說也沒有道理吧太過分了不要說嘛談不成的不要說那我一樣以加拿大4000萬人口是我們人口的1.7倍"},{"start":413.94,"end":430.628,"text":"他的新聞媒體對1.7倍他五年的計畫 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邀請我們抒發部黃部長還有我們通傳會陳代理主委好 請黃部長 陳代理主委"},{"start":15.579,"end":37.44,"text":"兩位好 今天的主要的討論議題是這個新聞媒體跟數位平台的一個議價法案那在一些其他國家接近有不同的做法就是可能一種做法是個別媒體業者的簽約一種做法是直接一筆類似代金啊 還是怎麼樣的金額給國家 對不對"},{"start":39.602,"end":49.499,"text":"如果說我們國家未來要推的話兩位認為未來會朝哪一個方面去推哪一種會是比較適合的"},{"start":51.784,"end":73.135,"text":"報告委員這個現在就是說有幾個方就說目前在這個我們新聞這個怎麼樣去讓新聞有價落實那這個目前就是三種主要是三種方案那那個三個方案其實都有國家在實施然後都有遇到一些問題所以當然就是說在目前我們也在觀察尤其是在最近又"},{"start":73.795,"end":93.073,"text":"因為政治的關係又有關稅的問題所以等到這個比較清楚我們希望之後跟能夠跟我們的大院溝通也能夠去跟民眾溝通找到一個最合適台灣的方案那我們就會那希望盡快不過目前的確沒有哪一個方法說是那我想聽聽看我們NCC的看法"},{"start":94.246,"end":122.093,"text":"跟委員報告在我們110年有做產業調查其實現行在沒有沒有這個立法之前已經有不少的業者已經跟平台有協商溢價有協商溢價他們都是都是兩兆之間會有契約關係啦但是都是不透明業者都是不透明所以你們認為未來如果立法後你們會傾向哪一種方案在NCC新聞媒體獨立的立場"},{"start":124.8,"end":151.024,"text":"因為NCC的管轄範圍是傳統的廣電有拿執照的那一塊這塊目前是暫時不在我們的作用法在我們的權責範圍但是我們的產業調查的結果發現他們認為還是說大概有簽約大概是希望平台能夠跟他的溢價能夠透明他希望制度能夠透明那至於說是剛剛部長所提到的三個方法其實各界都還在討論當中沒有一個定論"},{"start":151.624,"end":174.699,"text":"今天這個新聞有價這件事情當然是一個討論的一個層次那另外一個層次我想討論的是這個新聞一個新聞業或者是媒體業記者存在一個最大的一個價值在於他能夠自由的來批判時事無論是政府還是社會各面向的一個問題那如果說我們現在的一個數位平台將來"},{"start":177.26,"end":203.707,"text":"如果說他是用個別簽約的跟個別媒體來簽約的話那就變成了說這個平台他可能過去是如果說他沒有做任何的一個限制的話是任何一個媒體的一個多元化的一個報導都可以在這個平台上面去露出如果他沒有特別的限制的話那如果說他有特別去限制的話他可能就會被一些輿論走去批判做一些可能他是做一些思想審查等等的"},{"start":204.787,"end":226.612,"text":"那如果說我們將來的一個法令上路了之後我們都知道其實沒有任何一家媒體或者是任何一個人或任何一家公司他們有意識形態一定都有啦這一定都有的包括Google有他自己的意識形態臉書有他自己的意識形態那如果說未來的議價的法案上路了之後他可不可以反而過去他可能"},{"start":227.372,"end":245.844,"text":"不敢被人家扣他怕被扣上一個審查言論自由的帽子他不敢去做一些新聞媒體披露的一些審查他必須要讓所有的新聞媒體都公平的露出至少搜尋得到當然演算法他可能有內部的一個機制那如果說未來有一個議價法上路了之後"},{"start":246.857,"end":255.611,"text":"那這家這個數位平台它未來會不會有它自己的一個思想審查在未來溢價的一個過程當中這是我非常擔心的你說歐美的會不會有歐美的"},{"start":258.278,"end":286.044,"text":"可能會有應該說每一個每一家廠商都會有那甚至我們現在討論到另外一個更會對這個思想進行審查的可能這個對岸大陸的媒體你說他有很多一個平台那他未來在這個相關的新聞媒體上架的時候他會不會利用議價的一個手段來做一個言論審查的一個機制我擔心的是這一個那部長或者是說主委就這個面向你們可不可以提出你們的一些"},{"start":288.065,"end":309.357,"text":"這的確是一個就是說這的確是可以會令人擔心的就是說他們議價過程中議價這個怎麼決定因為其實我們看到像澳洲其實就是幾家大媒體他有去議價其他他都沒有去議價所以言論會集中在這幾家大媒體的立場那其實這是不好的"},{"start":309.557,"end":337.655,"text":"甚至他在議價的過程中他給人家不合就是給軟釘子嘛給一個不合理的價格不符合他這個思想價值的一個符合思想價值的他可以用很比較好的一個價格去簽約不符合他思想價值的媒體他用他認為不合理的價格導致簽約簽不成那這個就會導致未來的一個新聞媒體他沒有辦法在這個平台是多元化的一個給大眾那就可能變成思想牽制的一個情形"},{"start":338.576,"end":357.691,"text":"那NCC你們這邊的立場公務員報告這個是在目前現在情況是沒有未來如果要立法的話有類似我們這個有限電視頻道上架有限電視平台的有一個條款類似說你要公平公平對待啦那也許未來的立法裡頭也許會有"},{"start":358.992,"end":372.427,"text":"對應的類似的條款來要求說你不可以因為要做言論價值的審查來連線連到說你要跟我議價的一個權利啊或者範圍或者分身的比例"},{"start":373.376,"end":401.715,"text":"所以我認為就是我們當然是希望新聞有價它是一個價值但是應該有一個更高的價值在於新聞它的一個言論的自由批判的一個自由那先要維持新聞的它的一個評判跟這個評論的一個自由那我們再來來保障他們的一個新聞有價的一個價值我也希望說後續再做一些相關討論的時候這一個更上層的東西我們要避免它被一些思想箝制的它變成一個思想箝制的一個工具好不好 以上 謝謝"},{"start":403.336,"end":403.387,"text":"谢谢大家"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":766,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時54分）謝謝主席，邀請數發部黃部長還有通傳會陳代理主委。"],["主席：好，請黃部長、陳代主委。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：兩位好。今天討論的主要議題是新聞媒體與數位平臺的議價法案，借鏡其他國家的不同作法，一種是個別媒體業者的簽約，一種是直接一筆類似代金還是什麼樣的金額給國家，對不對？如果我國未來要推的話，兩位認為可能會朝哪個方面去推？哪一種會是比較適合的？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，關於怎麼樣落實新聞有價，目前主要是三種方案，三種方案都有國家在實施，也都有遇到一些問題，所以目前我們也在觀察，尤其是最近因為政治的關係還有關稅的問題，所以等到這個比較清楚之後，我們希望能夠跟大院和民眾溝通，找到一個最適合臺灣的方案，我們就會……希望儘快，不過目前的確沒有哪個方法是最……"],["廖委員先翔：我想聽聽看NCC的看法。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，我們110年有做產業調查，其實現行在沒有立法之前，已經有不少業者跟平臺協商議價，就是兩造之間會有契約關係，但就是不透明，業者complain的就是不透明。"],["廖委員先翔：所以未來如果立法，你們認為會傾向哪一種方案？站在NCC、新聞媒體獨立的立場。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為NCC的管轄範圍是傳統廣電、有拿執照的那一塊，這一塊目前暫時不在我們的作用法、在我們的權責範圍，但是我們產業調查的結果發現，有簽約的大概是希望平臺跟它的議價制度能夠透明，至於剛剛部長所提到的三種方法，其實各界都還在討論當中，沒有一致的定論。"],["廖委員先翔：新聞有價這件事情當然是一個討論的層次，另外一個層次我想討論的是新聞業或者是媒體業、記者存在的最大一個價值在於他能夠自由地來批判時事，無論是政府還是社會各個面向的問題，如果我們的數位平臺將來是和個別媒體業簽約的話，那就變成這個平臺可能過去如果沒有做任何限制的話，任何一個媒體的多元化報導都可以在這個平臺上面露出，如果它沒有特別的限制的話；如果它有特別去限制的話，可能就會被輿論批判說它去做一些思想審查等等的。如果將來法令上路之後，我們都知道，其實沒有任何一家媒體或者是任何一個人、任何一家公司沒有意識形態，一定都有啦！這一定都有的！包括Google有它自己的意識形態，臉書也有它自己的意識形態，如果未來議價法案上路，它可不可以反而……過去它可能怕被扣上言論審查的帽子，而不敢去做一些新聞媒體披露的審查，所以必須讓所有的新聞媒體都公平地露出、至少搜尋得到，當然，演算法可能有它內部的機制，如果未來有一個議價的法案上路之後，這家數位平臺在議價的過程當中，會不會有它自己的思想審查？這是我非常擔心的。","你說歐美的會不會有？歐美的可能會有，應該說每一家廠商都會有，甚至我們現在討論到另外一個更會對思想進行審查的可能是對岸大陸的媒體，你說它有很多的平臺，那它未來在相關的新聞媒體上架的時候，會不會利用議價的手段來做一個言論審查的機制？我擔心的是這一個。部長或主委可不可以就這個面向提出你們的看法？"],["黃部長彥男：這的確是會令人擔心的。就是在議價的過程中是怎麼決定的，像我們看到澳洲就是幾家大媒體有去議價，其他都沒有去議價，所以言論會集中在這幾家大媒體的立場，其實這是不好的。"],["廖委員先翔：甚至在議價的過程中給人家軟釘子嘛！給一個不合理的價格，符合它思想價值的，可以用比較好的價格去簽約，不符合它思想價值的媒體，就用它認為不合理的價格使得簽約簽不成，這就會導致未來新聞媒體沒有辦法在這個平臺多元化地提供給大眾，變成一個思想箝制的情形，NCC的立場呢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這在目前是沒有，未來如果要立法的話，平臺業者上架、有線電視平臺有一個條款，類似你要公平對待啦！也許未來的立法裡頭也會有對應的類似條款來要求說：你不可以因為要做言論價值的審查，來連線連到你要跟我議價的權利範圍或者分潤的比例。"],["廖委員先翔：對，所以我認為，我們當然是希望「新聞有價」它是一個價值，但是應該有一個更高的價值在於新聞的言論自由、批判自由，要先維持新聞的批判跟評論的自由，我們再來保障他們的新聞有價的價值。我也希望後續在做相關討論的時候，對於這個更上層的東西，我們要避免它變成一個思想箝制的工具。好不好？以上。謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝廖先翔委員。","現在請魯明哲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案；\n六、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00002"}}},{"id":"160904","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160904","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc0c6323160121dd76af84b180731b6d641c64ac1618a5937c6ccb487e2fda4bc7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"12:04:17 - 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我們邱部長邱部長"},{"start":13.323,"end":39.282,"text":"委員好柏定今天真的是舌戰所謂的不是舌戰啦齁我意思是說讓大家討論啦這個真的是重要的議題因為進入到這個超高齡社會謝謝主席來這個議題謝謝是是啊啊我也知道你是在臨床上其實有很豐富的經驗甚至有名的專家所以這機會再跟柏定來討論今天就是針對病毒法"},{"start":43.123,"end":58.656,"text":"未來在落實上面這個人數還有品質可以兼顧不要說他就要增加這個比例然後就在這個品質上是無法兼顧這個就是今天我們要討論的地方其實我們也知道"},{"start":61.059,"end":70.872,"text":"在這個討論的前提就是有這幾個重點包括我們是要以人為本以人為本前幾天賴總統也在健康台灣全國論壇上面我強調以人為本的醫療基本上"},{"start":75.698,"end":92.767,"text":"還需要重視的就是推動安寧照護跟尊嚴善中的支持跟肯定這就是我們今天討論的主題可是我們也看到數據就是病處法已經實施了五年還是有不到1%的民眾來簽署這方面的處理需求"},{"start":96.249,"end":119.821,"text":"那可能曾經大家都已經分析得很清楚包括可見性不足諮商費一開始的時候是自費嘛後來才有健保的部分的處理還有就是民眾他剛才黃先生也有提醒民眾在這個接受度的部分到底會不會有根據他對知識對這個生命的理解能不能接受還有"},{"start":121.202,"end":141.084,"text":"我們目前的現場執行的確有他的一些在處理上他要求比較嚴謹的地方那我們也知道如果依照今天早上部長的報告是以比較採像暫時不修法來做討論的話那就是要改善我們的政策改善的政策呢就會包括"},{"start":142.105,"end":157.913,"text":"有沒有機會來提高這個至上的可敬性擴大大家益計畫擴大健保給付跟強化政策宣傳那剛剛那個金蘇委員也有提到這部分怎麼來加強那真的要修改法律的話那應該要注意哪一些的事情"},{"start":159.873,"end":179.794,"text":"的確我們知道從今天開始就會擴大這個餘地移足的這些給付對象希望能夠在未來的一年裡面能夠增加兩萬人為目標來讓有更多的民眾來做這方面的處理那這方面的處理當然就會需要有比較相關的配套剛剛提到的政策"},{"start":180.895,"end":200.828,"text":"我現在先請教一個問題剛剛部長也有討論到其實如果能夠善用我們目前的安寧照護條例的一些條件的話事實上是也可以讓這個品質得到很好的照顧模式有民眾參加過這個屬於我們的這個病毒法的"},{"start":201.849,"end":213.121,"text":"同意簽署以後同時又有參加那您知道我條例這些內容的不知道有沒有百分比上的數據可以呈現市長或是有沒有相關的數據"},{"start":216.98,"end":242.841,"text":"這邊我沒有手邊沒數據我要再確認一下我覺得如果能夠知道有這個數據的話如果一個人一個民眾他願意同時同意這兩點的話我相信未來照顧在品質上或者是在跟家屬的溝通上是有他一定的這種不會造成大家在做臨床決策上的困擾所以我們也希望能夠看到這個數據"},{"start":244.229,"end":258.334,"text":"好我們再整理一下OK好那在馬雲部裡面這邊來處理所以針對未來要再利用這個部分提高的話希望能夠增加2.5萬人部長覺得這個機會大嗎這個樂觀還是不樂觀嗯"},{"start":269.075,"end":283.031,"text":"我們相對樂觀的原因是因為過去的這五年我們發現是說簽署這個AD就是去做ACP諮商AD的人其實過去都有一些生命情境是有相關經驗的才有這樣子的意願"},{"start":283.752,"end":311.307,"text":"所以是說這次那個金毛鼠針對的這個其實像有重大傷病或者是在我們那個加一整合計畫或者是全社區照顧計畫這邊大概都跟基層醫師這邊有相對密切關係長期信任信賴關係的所以第一個65歲以上是過去的他過去Potential Target裡面的熱於就是比較多去簽意願的人"},{"start":311.747,"end":327.101,"text":"然後那個基層這邊是我們更希望能夠擴大的這一塊因為訓練的人數多了然後只是說踏出這一步能夠盡可能的來做他協助他的病人來簽署AD的這件事情的話是我們"},{"start":327.862,"end":345.377,"text":"今年下半年也希望跟健保署一起合作希望能夠擴大的然後我們這邊也會有輔導團隊大概先做示範看看那個怎麼輔導讓大家基層這邊更勇於跨出第一步這是我們所以我們相對而言是對增加兩萬再提高這件事情我們是樂觀的以上"},{"start":346.474,"end":368.259,"text":"好 很期待這個樂觀可以有機會變成一個事實那如果我們希望讓這個樂觀更有機會的話那有沒有可能在以不修母法的前提之下針對我們目前的這幾個相關的管理辦法來做處理包括說 因為我們現在知道依照現在的管理辦法就是要求相對嚴謹嘛 你就要"},{"start":369.119,"end":395.88,"text":"有200床以上等等的一些限定條件我們也針對於護理機構或者是長照機構目前的話是無法如果現在以不修法為前提之下要做這個調整的話有沒有可能在辦法裡面去跟以護理或者是長照機構是跟醫院本身是有附設的條件的情形之下他們可以做同等的服務模式"},{"start":396.936,"end":420.253,"text":"我要講的是說過去這邊的這個管理辦法裡面在處理的一個是特殊專長的診所或醫院他的人員組成的資格其實並沒有說我講的是像護理社心這些一定要專屬在那家機構所以大家在社區裡面怎麼做協作的方式其實在過去的5年裡面我們有處理過然後"},{"start":421.473,"end":440.119,"text":"為什麼要不同的角度然後為什麼一定要就是醫療機構的原因是因為在解釋這一段的時候有很多對於疾病的預後對於後來的介入措施這個產生的一些衝擊好處壞處這個一定要相當臨床經驗的人所以在現行的狀況下面的時候"},{"start":441.259,"end":466.835,"text":"從不同的角度因為像譬如說社新這些的他們對於病人的同理心得更高度所以我們才覺得是說用協作的方式其實可以達成目前是說可不可以擴大領域因為不需要這些人專屬在哪一家醫院也可以或者是用協作的方式避典我舉個例子好了我舉個例子譬如說以部立基隆醫院為例它自己有一個複測長照機構這個複測長照機構依照現況可以做這個服務嗎"},{"start":470.41,"end":496.589,"text":"他的醫師團隊可以他可以進到那個輻射機構裡面因為就是說健保署他在擴大這個計畫的時候我們要的ACP簽出來的AD要有醫療機構蓋章然後像以剛剛那個委員在講的部立基隆醫院外展的服務到他的輻射的護理之家然後評估完以後這件事情其實現況是可以的"},{"start":496.749,"end":512.285,"text":"是所以如果說依照剛剛的說明看起來的話依照目前的管理辦法事實上是可以做好外展就能夠增加這個量能而且可以維持品質ok了解好那我們期待這方面在執行上可以更落實"},{"start":513.987,"end":519.772,"text":"我們知道如果真的是要修法的話有一些增點包括說開放諮商機構的條件跟範圍還有就是有關於人員的資格跟訓練"},{"start":528.36,"end":549.277,"text":"當然也希望這個人員在做服務的時候都要有實務的經驗因為畢竟這是跟生命有直接相關的一種服務模式所以這個經驗上也必須要能夠堅持還有就是法源這個裁員到底是要政府編列預算啊或者是要透過健保的模式還有剛剛一直在討論的就是那個現場決策機制"},{"start":551.238,"end":574.18,"text":"怎麼樣才能夠讓他可以在一定的品質之下不要造成這個醫病或者是醫師跟這個他的家人之間的一些處理上的一些干擱所以看起來如果要往修法方向的話似乎要進入主條討論之前如果有一個公聽會應該更能夠引起大家不同的意見或者是需求"},{"start":574.961,"end":594.659,"text":"那召委剛好也是相關有認為需要修法那是不是也麻煩召委這邊等一下看能不能也讓大家知道說那我們委員會是不是需要再舉辦一個公聽會來再收集更多的一些想法跟意見當作未來修法的一個參考"},{"start":596.12,"end":615.233,"text":"這個是我針對第一部分跟這個部長討論那後面很快的就針對醫療資訊的傳播正確性跟部長也來討論一下我們也知道今天其實有很多委員一直在討論說這個預例一組安寧緩和安樂死如果將來有需要討論的時候"},{"start":616.414,"end":638.88,"text":"那這方面其實大家的資訊非常非常的多元非常的很難一下子去搞懂這幾個概念上的問題所以未來有沒有機會請布里這邊針對於這個相關的資訊能夠提供更為透明而且是正確至少民眾在做這方面的認知的時候是有所本的"},{"start":639.72,"end":658.742,"text":"那這方面如果能夠處理到的話我相信對於未來在溝通的時候會有更好的一些引導方面那我們也知道其實最後就是有關於剛剛針對這個資訊的透明還有正確性真的非常非常的重要因為我們目前也知道"},{"start":660.244,"end":675.126,"text":"比較屬於針對學者或者是臨床很希望針對我們這個健保是否能夠在現有的制度之下能夠持續永續那他們發出一些看法那他偷到一個"},{"start":676.907,"end":699.817,"text":"這個頂尖的期刊結果大家也發現說原來這個資訊不是那麼樣的完整或者是不是那麼樣的一個正確的情形下會導致可能國外或者是這個期刊的這個讀者可能對於台灣這個醫療體制是會造成不當的認知那部長這邊也希望能夠有更有效去處理這個部分"},{"start":701.098,"end":725.268,"text":"那這邊部長不知道能不能夠再做簡短的處理的方式讓我們知道好 前面這一張PowerPoint跟這一張我回應一下第一個就是不管是安寧環的醫療的內容或者是說大家關心的醫師協助自殺等等的相關的議題我覺得應該要更多的對話那我們也有在做這方面的努力"},{"start":726.868,"end":750.113,"text":"希望讓各位對這個名詞的內容能夠更加了解來保護自己第二個部分這個部分因為我們這位年輕的醫師他引用的數據錯誤我們的Omicron的死亡率是0.16%他用一個"},{"start":754.311,"end":779.916,"text":"58%這樣子那不是很可怕了嗎這樣的錯誤也寫出去我們也覺得Lancet在那個審查當中因為他有reference英文已經寫得很清楚我覺得他們的審查真的也是我也覺得說沒有仔細去看一下因為那個的確是很不合理那其他的數據當然有所錯誤所以然後因為錯誤的"},{"start":781.209,"end":790.897,"text":"的一個數據 導致以錯誤的解讀導致以錯誤的結論我想中醫大非常嚴肅的開了兩次的協助的理委員會"},{"start":792.239,"end":820.562,"text":"正是在前天晚上就發出要求撤稿衛福部也是在昨天的下午也是做了一個論述也呈現我們台灣健保其實的成就以及我們醫療防疫體系的努力希望能夠不但要求撤稿也希望刊登出來能夠讓期間的讀者知道台灣的努力這樣才對得起我們過去醫療人員"},{"start":822.361,"end":827.838,"text":"以及政府的努力好 謝謝部長大家繼續努力好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":624,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（12時4分）謝謝主席，麻煩請邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長，今天真的是舌戰所有的……不是舌戰啦，我的意思是說跟大家討論啦！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["王委員正旭：這個真的是重要的議題，因為進入到超高齡社會，遇到的問題很多……"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝主席安排這個議題，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：我也知道你臨床上的經驗其實很豐富，也算是這方面的專家……"],["邱部長泰源：不敢、不敢。"],["王委員正旭：所以利用這個機會來跟部長好好討論今天的這個病主法，未來在落實上，要如何讓人數和品質可以兼顧，不要為了要增加比例而無法兼顧品質，這個就是今天我們要討論的地方。","其實我們都知道這個討論的前提有幾個重點，包括要以人為本，前幾天賴總統在健康台灣全國論壇上也強調以人為本的醫療，基本上需要重視的就是推動安寧照護跟尊嚴善終的支持和肯定，這就是今天我們要討論的主題。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["王委員正旭：可是我們看到數據，病主法已經實施5年，只有不到1%的民眾簽署這方面的處理需求，原因大家可能都已經分析得很清楚，包括可近性不足、諮商費一開始是自費，後來才有健保部分處理；還有剛剛黃秀芳委員一再提醒的民眾接受度的部分，到底會不會根據他對知識、對生命的理解而能不能接受？還有我們目前的現場執行，的確在一些處理上是有要求比較嚴謹的地方。","如果依照今天早上部長的報告，是比較傾向採暫時不修法來討論，那就要改善我們的政策；改善政策部分，包括有沒有機會提高諮商的可近性、擴大大家醫計畫、擴大健保給付和強化政策宣傳。剛剛林淑芬委員也提到這部分要怎麼加強，真的要修改法律的話，應該要注意哪一些事情。我們知道從今天開始會擴大預立醫囑的給付對象，希望在未來的一年裡，能夠以增加2萬人為目標，讓更多的民眾可以做這方面的處理；而要做這方面的處理，當然就需要相關配套，也就是剛剛提到的政策改善。剛剛部長提到，如果能夠善用目前安寧照護條例的一些條件，事實上是可以讓病人得到很好品質的照顧模式。在此，請教部長，有民眾參加過病主法的同意簽署後，同時又參加安寧照護條例的這些內容，不知道你們有沒有百分比上的數據可以呈現？司長有沒有相關數據？"],["劉司長越萍：我手邊沒有數據，要再確認一下。"],["王委員正旭：我覺得如果能夠知道這個數據，一個民眾願意同時同意這兩點，我相信未來在照顧的品質上，或者是在跟家屬的溝通上，是有其一定的……不會造成大家在臨床決策上的困擾，所以我們希望可以看到這個數據。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們再整理一下。"],["王委員正旭：OK，再麻煩部裡面來處理。針對未來這個部分要再提高，希望增加2.5萬人，部長覺得機會大嗎？樂觀還是不樂觀？"],["邱部長泰源：嗯！司長……"],["劉司長越萍：我們相對樂觀，原因是因為過去這五年，我們發現去做ACP諮商、簽AD的人，過去都有一些生命情境相關經驗，才有這樣子的意願。這次健保署針對的，像有重大傷病、家醫整合計畫或者是全人全社區照護計畫，大概都是跟基層醫師有相對密切關係、長期信賴關係的。所以第一個，65歲以上是過去的potential target，裡面比較多有意願去簽的人，然後基層這塊是我們更希望能夠擴大的部分，因為訓練的人數多了，只是說踏出這一步，能夠盡可能協助他的病人來簽署AD。我們今年下半年也希望跟健保署一起合作，希望能夠擴大，我們這邊也會有輔導團隊先試辦，看看怎麼輔導，讓基層更勇於跨出第一步，所以對簽署人數再提高這件事情我們是樂觀的，以上。"],["王委員正旭：好，很期待這個樂觀可以有機會變成一個事實，如果我們希望讓這個樂觀更有機會的話，有沒有可能在不修母法的前提之下，針對於目前這些相關的管理辦法處理？因為我們知道，現在的管理辦法要求相對嚴謹，要有200床以上等等的限定條件，護理機構或者是長照機構目前是無法處理的。如果現在以不修法為前提，要做這個調整的話，有沒有可能在辦法裡面修正，讓醫院附設的護理或者是長照機構可以做同等的服務模式？"],["劉司長越萍：過去這個管理辦法在處理的是特殊專長的診所或醫院，它的人員組成資格其實並沒有一定要專屬在那家機構，我講的是像護理、社心這些職類。所以大家在社區裡面怎麼做協作的方式，其實在過去的5年裡面我們有處理過。為什麼要有不同的角度，以及為什麼一定要醫療機構的原因，是因為在解釋這一段的時候，有很多對於疾病的預後、對於後來的介入措施，這個產生的一些衝擊、好處、壞處，一定要有相當臨床經驗的人才有辦法處理。所以在現行的狀況下，從不同的角度，譬如像社心這些，他們對於病人的同理心是更高度的，所以我們才覺得用協作的方式其實可以達成目前希望的擴大領域，因為不需要這些人專屬在哪一家醫院也可以，或者是用協作的方式……"],["王委員正旭：我舉個例子好了，譬如說，以部立基隆醫院為例，它自己有一個附設長照機構，依照現況，這個附設長照機構可以做這個服務嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：他的醫師團隊可以。"],["王委員正旭：他可以進到那個附設機構裡面？"],["劉司長越萍：因為健保署在擴大這個計畫的時候，我們要的ACP簽出來的AD要有醫療機構蓋章，像剛剛委員講的，部立基隆醫院外展服務到它附設的護理之家，評估完以後，這件事情其實現況是可以的。"],["王委員正旭：是，如果依照剛剛的說明，看起來目前的管理辦法事實上可以做好外展，就能夠增加量能，而且可以維持品質。"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["王委員正旭：OK，了解。我們很期待這方面在執行上可以更落實。","我們知道如果真的要修法的話也有一些爭點，包括開放諮商機構的條件跟範圍，還有有關於諮商人員的資格跟訓練。我們當然也希望人員在做服務的時候都要有實務經驗，畢竟這是跟生命直接相關的一種服務模式，所以經驗也必須要堅實。還有財源到底是要政府編列預算，或者是要透過健保的模式。再來，剛剛一直在討論的就是現場決策機制，怎麼樣才能夠讓它可以在一定的品質之下，不要造成醫病或者是醫師跟他的家人之間在處理上有一些扞格。如果要往修法方向的話，在進入逐條討論之前，如果有一個公聽會，應該更能夠聆聽大家不同的意見或者是需求。召委剛好也認為需要修法，是不是也麻煩召委，等一下看能不能讓大家知道，我們委員會是不是需要再舉辦一個公聽會，再蒐集更多的想法跟意見，當作未來修法的參考？這個是我針對第一部分跟部長討論的。","後面很快的針對醫療資訊的傳播正確性跟部長討論一下。我們也知道今天有很多委員一直在討論預立醫囑、安寧緩和、安樂死，如果將來有需要討論的時候，這方面其實大家的資訊非常非常的多元，很難一下子搞懂這幾個概念上的問題，所以未來有沒有機會請部裡能夠提供更為透明且正確的相關資訊，至少讓民眾在這方面的認知是有所本的？這方面如果能夠處理到的話，我相信未來在溝通的時候會有一些更好的引導。","剛才提到的資訊透明及正確性真的非常非常重要，因為我們也知道，針對我們的健保是否能夠在現有的制度之下持續、永續，學者或者是臨床有發出一些看法，也有醫師投書到一個頂尖的期刊，結果大家發現，原來在資訊不是那麼完整或者不是那麼正確的情形之下，可能導致國外或者是這個期刊的讀者，對於臺灣的醫療體制產生不當的認知。也希望部長能夠更有效去處理這個部分，不知道部長能不能夠最後做簡短的回應，讓我們知道這個處理的方式？"],["邱部長泰源：我回應一下前一張和這一張PowerPoint，第一個，不管是安寧緩和醫療的內容，或者是大家關心的醫師協助自殺等等相關的議題，我覺得應該要有更多的對話，我們也有在做這方面的努力，希望讓國人對這個名詞的內容能夠更加了解，來保護自己。","第二個部分，這位年輕醫師引用的數據錯誤，我們Omicron的死亡率是0.16%，他用58%，那不是很可怕嗎？即使是這樣的錯誤也寫出去，我們也覺得Lancet的審查真的也是沒有仔細去看，因為他有reference，英文已經寫得很清楚，那個的確是很不合理的，其他的數據當然也有錯誤。因為錯誤的數據導致出錯誤的解讀、導致出錯誤的結論，我想中醫大非常嚴肅的開了兩次學術倫理委員會，正式在前天晚上要求Lancet撤稿。我們衛福部也在昨天下午做了一個論述，呈現我們臺灣健保的成就，以及我們醫療防疫體系的努力；不但要求撤稿，也希望刊登出來，能夠讓期刊的讀者知道臺灣的努力，這樣才對得起我們過去醫療人員以及政府的努力。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝部長，大家繼續努力。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：下一位請劉建國召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","莊瑞雄","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳培瑜","楊曜","陳瑩","涂權吉","陳菁徽"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；二、委員劉建國等\n16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利\n法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00007"}}},{"id":"160903","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160903","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc0efb688b375f93354f84b180731b6d641c64ac1618a5937c64081f7d117a098d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:49:21 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12:04:08","影片長度":"00:14:47","會議時間":"2025-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅詢答】\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-01","start_time":"2025-05-01T11:49:21+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-01T12:04:08+08:00","duration":887,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.92471875,"end":6.527843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.84846875,"end":7.624718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.152218750000001,"end":9.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.14346875,"end":10.746593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.387843750000002,"end":15.437843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.875968750000002,"end":20.348468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.65221875,"end":35.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.78909375,"end":39.619718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.88971875,"end":57.945968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.587218750000005,"end":60.713468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.06784375,"end":67.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.73346875,"end":73.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.72409375000001,"end":86.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.95409375,"end":94.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.29471875,"end":94.76721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.76721875000001,"end":97.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.68659375,"end":108.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.15846875000001,"end":102.58034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.58034375000001,"end":102.59721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.80346875000001,"end":105.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.87096875,"end":106.37721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.09409375000001,"end":116.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.19096875000001,"end":110.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.85659375,"end":121.96971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.05034375000001,"end":119.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.14721875000001,"end":143.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.68159375000002,"end":130.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.90721875,"end":144.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.25721875000002,"end":145.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.78034375000001,"end":157.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.69159375,"end":147.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.88534375,"end":148.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.05409375000002,"end":149.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.65221875,"end":155.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.84596875,"end":178.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.63159375,"end":191.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.27096875,"end":193.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.14409375000002,"end":197.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.67096875000001,"end":199.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.74659375000002,"end":205.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.00721875000002,"end":206.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.26034375,"end":207.62721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.07034375,"end":209.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.41596875000002,"end":211.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.10346875000002,"end":220.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.14034375000003,"end":225.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.14409375000002,"end":221.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.93721875000003,"end":232.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.89346875,"end":237.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.88909375,"end":234.20534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.91784375,"end":247.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.15409375000002,"end":241.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.68409375000002,"end":334.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.96346875,"end":270.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.03159375,"end":320.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.40909375,"end":345.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.57596875,"end":357.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.18596875000003,"end":359.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.13096875,"end":362.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.25284375,"end":367.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.36596875000004,"end":369.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.80846875000003,"end":455.23409375000006},{"speaker":"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部長好 今天大家關心的就是說我們從2019年這個病人自主權利法通過之後那這個這個預例醫療照護諮商的這一個好像這個幾年下來成效好像也不是那麼好"},{"start":40.052,"end":55.908,"text":"我們看到就是說那個實施到現在有簽署的人差不多10萬多人那這個簽署率差不多0.45%那又看到就是說到最後有真的照這樣子這個病人預歷醫療照護諮商"},{"start":58.89,"end":73.097,"text":"這樣的醫療到最後是不是有照這樣做的好像這個比例好像也很低那我想請教就是說到底有簽署然後到最後有照這樣去執行的這個比例到底有多少"},{"start":74.377,"end":96.79,"text":"報告委員,根據這個應該是衛福部委託的研究我們大概就是有簽署AD到後來的吻合率是七成那這七成裡面有分類,譬如說心外按摩室、插管這個大概百分之百吻合,那在比較困難的是在於"},{"start":97.771,"end":114.847,"text":"抗生素那個時候要不要使用要不要用人工營養比如說插鼻胃管 胃躁揉或者是用點滴去打那個營養分這個部分到那個時候爭議爭議會比較大所以第一在前面的AD即使簽了以後你到臨床的現場"},{"start":117.109,"end":142.689,"text":"還是要不斷的溝通說明做最好政策這樣子部長我想請教就是說你們這樣子目前簽署十萬三千多人這個都是原本是用自費自己自費的嘛對不對那如果說自己自費然後簽署是只有十萬多人的話那未來你們也有特別提到就是說這個諮商65歲重大疾病的部分未來是要由健保這邊來給付嗎對不對"},{"start":146.806,"end":172.255,"text":"對嗎5月1號就今天開始今天開始那原本自己自費的自費表示他就是有未來有這個意願有這個意願那你看這樣你們簽署的這個執行率就已經那麼低那如果未來是健保的話那你們要怎麼去擴及是直接在醫療院所或者是你們到其他的可能老人比較多的場所去直接"},{"start":174.076,"end":193.015,"text":"這個說明然後鼓吹我不知道說你們未來要怎麼做我們當然可以都要思考怎麼樣把廣度深度都能夠加強我想這個部分也是大家的期望但是就是說我剛剛有講如果"},{"start":194.492,"end":205.157,"text":"剛剛第一階段是70%可是後來發現幾年以後再做一次 吻合率比較低為什麼 我們專家的研究就是因為諮商的品質降低"},{"start":206.475,"end":223.744,"text":"資商品質為什麼會降低就是可能他應該也是找醫師所以就是說是不是說時間上或者是怎麼樣這個就是在檢討啦這是一個檢討的可能那你現在5月1號開始上路就65歲重大傷病的我們還是會要求品質嘛要求品質你現在給他支付當然是要求品質啊如果沒做好品質這個大概就不用做了"},{"start":232.349,"end":247.288,"text":"那你們已經今天開始了嘛今天開始那你應該要怎麼去要求這個要怎麼要求你們應該自己有一套的要有一定的時間內容跟表單嘛應該都有一個監測的指標嘛"},{"start":248.755,"end":268.85,"text":"我先講一下因為其實病毒法實行到這邊五年多其實我們相關的醫護人員完成訓練的人數是夠的然後所以在過去像比如說剛剛那個趙葦這邊有在講等候的人數是因為過去醫院在開設門診的這一段他其實是有多少病人那時候是預約門診的部分"},{"start":270.131,"end":294.983,"text":"然後所以在開設加開兩年的部分的話因為人數夠多所以在這個可以解決就是目前現況的部分的話所以我們才會特別講是說健保署這邊如果開始開這個的話我們大概會監測希望是說至少在今年能夠我們最近兩年是一年大概兩萬人次的一個增加的一個幅度那我們希望今年開始能夠突破到四萬"},{"start":295.623,"end":317.6,"text":"那這短期間內就是說開出門診是一件事怎麼樣就是說透過這樣子的一個因為我們本來在基層診所這邊有去居家做的這一塊然後我們覺得是說這一塊也是可以來做協作希望能夠擴大量的而不是只靠門診的部分然後也因為這樣子其實我們下半年會有一些專家輔導團隊先做試辦看看怎麼去輔導已經"},{"start":321.963,"end":345.355,"text":"上完課有能力做的更敢做的這件事情這是我們下半年希望能夠突破這樣的量才會增加然後期待是說才能夠真的讓更多人了解病毒那我想請教就是說他有簽了那如果簽了到最後到最後他可能沒有意識那如果家人反對呢"},{"start":346.656,"end":369.19,"text":"如果醫師跟家人討論就是說他可能這個情況不是那麼樂觀那也許這個病人他原本就已經有簽那個醫主那簽完之後然後家屬反對那家屬反對到底這個醫生要按照他原本的這個醫主或者是他要聽家人的"},{"start":370.912,"end":395.348,"text":"這一段其實最重要這個法律的精神會希望是說一併和諧然後在執行的過程當中其實怎麼樣呈現出這個病人的爭議然後我們其實大概在兩年前其實就開始我們在簽這個所謂的AD這個的時候我們就希望同步一起能夠來就是說為什麼家屬一定要進來"},{"start":396.689,"end":415.26,"text":"因為這樣子的話才會有見證人其實是同步的證實說這個真的是病人的正義然後那這樣子的前提下面的時候進行的所謂的溝通對話醫護人員也比較敢是說跟另外的家屬說這個是病人真正的意願然後執行"},{"start":415.74,"end":442.596,"text":"因為在這個整個過程當中從一路走來的跟善終相關的從棄捐到安寧到病毒我們其實都發現我們華人社會其實還是一個家庭一個核心所以家人的共識家人的同意其實這件事情是重要的早點開啟對話後面也就是我們剛剛部長講的為什麼越早開啟對話的時候那大家的共識度也願意"},{"start":444.257,"end":468.357,"text":"讓這個病人最後的醫院能夠執行的這件事情是我覺得是今天也謝謝委員透過這樣的執行我們也希望民眾能夠知道是病人的爭議才是最重要的可是市長應該在醫療的第一線醫師跟家屬可能會做一個討論那醫師也會以他的專業覺得說我這個是不是還有機會那如果說這個"},{"start":470.86,"end":484.756,"text":"家屬跟這個醫師可能也許或者是病人本身也許如果會有一些矛盾的話也許病人本身他覺得說我可能就不插管或者是我可能"},{"start":485.396,"end":508.542,"text":"不做積極的那個治療那醫師覺得說還有機會那這樣子的話怎麼辦我們對於末期病人要兩位專科醫師共同確認所以在這個地方上面的醫療程序上面的一個完備其實會是讓我們的在跟病人家屬解釋這一段的時候我覺得會是一個比較清楚而不是一個醫師就說這個有救"},{"start":509.142,"end":533.65,"text":"因為要有科學的證據一起來做佐證的時候我覺得啦在決定的時候因為怎麼準備都不夠可是越多的客觀的一些資料幫忙輔助的時候其實在解釋這一段困難難以做決定的一個過程裡面我覺得是相對容易比較容易產生一個就是共識還是會回到了尊重病人自主的一個狀況以上"},{"start":534.99,"end":555.865,"text":"那我可以請教就是說這個從2019到現在就是有十萬三千多人有簽署那這十萬三千多人剛剛部長有特別提到就是差不多70%就是有按照原本的這個遺囑下去執行那有沒有碰到什麼樣的困難你們有沒有做一個統計"},{"start":557.829,"end":579.95,"text":"這部分的話我們那時候委託的研究只有就是說比較籠統的講到就是說需要再跟家屬再做進一步的溝通這個地方上面的一個困境因為我們當初在簽的時候跟執行AD的時候如果這個情境跟安寧很像就是末期的時候"},{"start":580.43,"end":606.877,"text":"那個家屬的理解度相對的高然後可是就是說在這一段過程裡面其實第一段執行在剛開始法律通過的時候其實是醫護人員醫療人員要怎麼執行這一段會有困擾所以我們大概透過輔導團隊然後跟線上的課程定期的一個線上臨床工作會議的一個聯繫會議去解決一開始的困境是有法律不知道怎麼做"},{"start":607.717,"end":636.923,"text":"ACP很清楚執行AD不知道怎麼做透過大概兩年到三年的一個像這樣子的一個專業團隊的一起協助推動的時候現在的困擾其實會是說怎麼樣擴大相對的效應因為發現很多人還是不清楚那我想請教就是說你們原本執行了這個百分之七十幾的人或者是剩下百分之三十左右沒有按照原本的這一個簽署下去執行"},{"start":637.664,"end":639.348,"text":"那有沒有醫療糾紛的這種狀況出現"},{"start":644.768,"end":669.388,"text":"這個我不確定只是我們研究報告請研究團隊在跟我們做討論的時候並沒有人提到這一段我只能夠這樣講新的抑鬱法在上路之後一年多我們一年多裡面的案件並沒有看到末期病人的這一段所以就是說最主要是還要再跟家屬溝通應該就是原本他簽的時候雖然有一個家屬陪同"},{"start":670.569,"end":685.708,"text":"就是一個家屬至少要一個家屬陪同那可能在到最後的時候也許其他的家屬認為就是說那我還是要繼續救所以可能就會有這樣子一個矛盾產生那像這樣子的話要聽誰的"},{"start":687.39,"end":715.929,"text":"基本上面老實講在那段過程當中其實幾乎都是會在用溝通會的家庭會議這邊來做一個凝聚共識然後那結論的部分因為我自己沒有在做那個食物的臨床的經驗只是是說在跟研究團隊討論的過程當中其實很多因為後來幾乎都是走末期的這一段然後透過多次的一個會議之後其實逐漸產生的共識"},{"start":717.73,"end":743.989,"text":"比较多能够尊重病人只是这是要花时间来做跟家属这边的沟通其实我一直认为就是说病人的状况如果他真的是没办法没办法再回复或者是说已经就已经没办法了我觉得医师如果很明确的讲通常家属都可以可以接受就是说可能就是让他三中如果他还有自己签署的话那如果"},{"start":744.909,"end":769.099,"text":"我覺得這個可能跟醫師也有很大的一個關係那另外就是說要把這個丟給第一線的醫護人員我覺得好像也就譬如說醫師要跟家屬溝通我覺得這個也是要花蠻花時間的所以我覺得這個法也許我覺得還需要再更多的一個社會的溝通"},{"start":771.425,"end":787.645,"text":"包委員,前面這個法做得更好當然是絕對有幫助於後面照顧的品質但是一旦他要兩個醫師決定默契以後其實有很多溝通那剛剛講的在新惠富叔叔跟那個"},{"start":789.906,"end":815.811,"text":"呃 插管這個部分幾乎他原來講不要大概那個時候也不會做啦齁但是在臨床上真的有很多決策齁那到底他這個狀況打抗生素是有沒有用打人工營養水分是養到細胞比較多還是養到正常的細胞你一直跟他講你一直跟他打打到都是細胞一直大起來他的肉一碟肉就沒有成果這種很嚴重的問題啊這就是communicationis the key"},{"start":817.791,"end":836.867,"text":"就是一直在溝通每天我們都在做倫理決策那這個請放心我們的安寧團隊在這個部分台灣的安寧團安寧照顧品質是世界第三亞洲第一所以要善用我們這樣幾十年來建立的這樣一個有品質的團隊給病人可以好好的照顧所以我們反而要先導"},{"start":838.496,"end":859.651,"text":"早一點來照會 病人如果到達比較重病的時候應該早一點不管是思考ACP或思考要接受安寧環而醫療照顧這個教育是非常重要的因為不但可以早一點追求善終的路生死良相安應該也讓資源得到最好的一個合理的分配"},{"start":860.191,"end":880.604,"text":"好 我是覺得說應該這條路真的確實你們看從那個2019到現在有簽署的才10萬多人這個數字真的是非常少對 當然土法不足以助行所以我們有很多要大家繼續努力但是我們後面的照顧團隊是很堅強的可以解決很多的問題好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":578,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時49分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：來，部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，今天大家關心的是，我們從2019年病人自主權利法通過之後，預立醫療照護諮商這幾年下來，成效好像也不是那麼好，我們看到實施到現在，有簽署的人差不多十萬多人，這個簽署率差不多0.45%，又看到最後是不是真的有照病人預立醫療照護諮商這樣做的，好像這個比例也很低。我想請教有簽署且到最後也有照這樣去執行的，這個比例到底有多少？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，根據衛福部委託的研究，有簽署AD到後來的吻合率是七成，這七成裡面有分類，譬如心外按摩術、插管，這個大概百分之百吻合，比較困難的是在於抗生素要不要使用，要不要用人工營養，譬如插鼻胃管、胃造廔，或者是用點滴去打營養的，這個部分到那個時候爭議會比較大。所以第一，在前面的AD即使簽了以後，你到臨床的現場還是要不斷溝通、說明，做好決策這樣子。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我想請教，目前簽署十萬三千多人，這個原本都是自己自費的嘛？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果自己自費，簽署只有十萬多人的話，你們也有特別提到65歲重大疾病的部分，未來諮商是要由健保給付，對不對？對嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：5月1日會擴大。"],["黃委員秀芳：5月1日就是今天開始嘛！原本自己自費的，自費表示他就是未來有這個意願，你看簽署的執行率就已經那麼低，如果未來是健保給付，你們要怎麼去擴及？是直接在醫療院所，或者是你們到其他可能老人比較多的場所直接說明，然後鼓吹？我不知道你們未來要怎麼做。"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然都要思考怎麼樣把廣度、深度都能夠加強，我想這個部分也是大家的期望，但是我剛剛有講，第一階段是70%，可是後來發現幾年以後再做一次，吻合率比較低，為什麼？我們專家的研究就是因為諮商的品質降低。"],["黃委員秀芳：諮商品質為什麼會降低？"],["邱部長泰源：就是可能……"],["黃委員秀芳：他應該也是找醫師。"],["邱部長泰源：對，所以這是不是時間上或者是怎麼樣，這個在檢討，這是一個檢討的可能……"],["黃委員秀芳：是，你現在5月1日開始上路，就是65歲重大傷病者……"],["邱部長泰源：我們還是會去要求品質。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，你們要怎麼去……"],["邱部長泰源：你現在幫他給付，當然是要要求品質，如果沒沒做好品質，這個大概就不用做了，幹嘛做這個？"],["黃委員秀芳：你們今天開始了，你應該要怎麼去要求？這個要怎麼要求，你們應該自己有一套的……"],["邱部長泰源：監測的指標要有一定的時間、內容跟填表單，應該都有一個監測的指標……"],["劉司長越萍：我先講一下，病主法施行到這邊五年多，其實我們相關的醫護人員完成訓練的人數是夠的，過去譬如剛剛召委講的等候人數，因為過去醫院在開設門診的這一段有多少病人，那時候是預約門診……在開設加開量能的部分，因為人數夠多，所以可以解決現況的部分，所以我們才會特別講健保署如果開始開了這個，我們大概會監測，希望至少在今年能夠突破，最近兩年，一年大概兩萬人次的增加幅度，我們希望今年開始能夠突破到4萬。短期間內，開出門診是一件事，怎麼樣透過這樣子的方式，因為我們本來在基層診所有去居家做的這一塊，我們覺得這一塊也是可以協作，希望能夠擴大量能，而不是只靠門診的部分。也因為這樣子，其實我們下半年會有一些專家輔導團隊先試辦，看看怎麼去輔導，已經上完課有能力做的、更敢做的這件事情，這是我們下半年希望能夠突破的，這樣量才會增加，期待能夠真的讓更多人了解病主，以上。"],["黃委員秀芳：我想請教，他有簽了，但是到最後他可能沒有意識，如果家人反對呢？如果醫師跟家人討論，告知這個情況可能不是那麼樂觀，也許這個病人原本就已經有簽醫囑，但是簽完之後，家屬反對，在家屬反對的情況下，到底這個醫生要按照他原本的醫囑，或者是他要聽家人的？"],["劉司長越萍：這個法律最重要的精神會希望醫病和諧，在執行的過程當中，怎麼樣呈現出這個病人的真意，大概在兩年前開始在簽所謂AD的時候，我們就希望能夠同步一起，為什麼家屬一定要進來？因為這樣子才會有見證人，其實是同步的證實這個真的是病人的真意，在這樣子的前提下進行的溝通對話，醫護人員也比較敢跟另外的家屬說這個是病人真正的意願，然後執行，因為在整個過程當中，一路走來跟善終相關的，從器捐到安寧、到病主，我們都發現華人社會其實還是以一個家庭為核心，所以家人的共識、家人的同意，其實這件事情是重要的。早點開啟對話，後面也就是剛剛我們部長講的，越早開啟對話，大家的共識度也願意讓病人最後的意願能夠執行這件事情，今天也謝謝委員透過這樣的質詢，我們也希望民眾能夠知道病人的真意才是最重要的。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，可是司長，在醫療的第一線醫師跟家屬可能會做討論，醫師也會以他的專業判斷這是不是還有機會。如果家屬跟醫師或者是病人本身有一些矛盾的話，也許病人本身會覺得我可能就不插管，或者是我可能不做積極的治療，但是醫師覺得還有機會，這樣子的話該怎麼辦？"],["劉司長越萍：我們對於末期病人要兩位專科醫師共同確認，所以在這個地方上面，醫療程序的完備其實會讓我們在跟病人家屬解釋這一段的時候，我覺得會比較清楚，而不是一個醫師說這個有救，因為要有科學的證據一起做佐證。我覺得在決定的時候，怎麼準備都不夠，可是越多客觀的一些資料幫忙輔助，其實在解釋這一段困難、難以做決定的過程裡面，我覺得是相對容易，比較容易產生一個共識，還是會回到尊重病人自主的狀況，以上。"],["黃委員秀芳：我可不可以請教，從2019到現在，有十萬三千多人簽署，這十萬三千多人剛剛部長有特別提到，差不多70%有按照原本的醫囑下去執行，有沒有碰到什麼樣的困難，你們有沒有統計？"],["劉司長越萍：關於這部分，我們那時候委託的研究，只有比較籠統的講到，需要跟家屬再做進一步溝通這個地方上面的困境。因為當初在簽的時候、執行AD的時候，如果情境跟安寧很像，就是末期的時候，家屬的理解度相對高，可是就是在這第一段執行的過程中，在法律剛通過的時候，其實醫護人員、醫療人員要怎麼執行的這一段是會有困擾的。所以我們大概是透過輔導團隊和定期線上課程的臨床工作聯繫會議去解決，一開始的困境是有法律但不知道怎麼做，ACP很清楚，但執行AD不知道要怎麼做，大概透過兩年到三年這樣的專業團隊一起協助推動，現在的困擾則是怎麼擴大相對的效應，因為我們發現很多人還是不清楚。"],["黃委員秀芳：原本執行了百分之七十幾的人，或者是剩下百分之三十左右的人沒有按照原本的簽署執行，有沒有出現醫療糾紛的狀況？"],["劉司長越萍：這個我不確定，只是我們在和研究團隊討論的時候，並沒有人提到這一段，我只能這樣講。新的預立法在上路後的一年多，我們的案件裡並沒有看到末期病人的這一段。"],["黃委員秀芳：就是說最主要還是要再跟家屬溝通？"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：應該是原本他簽的時候，雖然至少要有一個家屬陪同……"],["劉司長越萍：二等親。"],["黃委員秀芳：可是到最後的時候，也許其他家屬認為還要繼續救，所以會有這樣的矛盾產生，像這樣的話，要聽誰的？"],["劉司長越萍：老實講，基本上在那段過程當中，幾乎都會再用家庭會議來做一個共識的凝聚，至於結論部分，因為我自己沒有實務上的臨床經驗，只是在跟研究團隊討論的過程當中，因為很多後來幾乎都是走末期這一段，然後透過多次的會議之後，逐漸產生共識，也比較能夠尊重病人，只是要花時間來進行跟家屬的溝通。"],["黃委員秀芳：其實我一直認為病人的狀況如果真的沒辦法回復，或者已經沒辦法了，如果醫師可以很明確的講，通常家屬都可以接受讓他善終，如果他自己還有簽署的話，這可能跟醫師也有很大關係。另外就是要把這個問題丟給第一線醫護人員，變成是醫師要跟家屬溝通，也是蠻花時間的，所以我覺得這個法也許還需要社會更多的溝通。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，也許前面這個法做得更好，當然絕對有助於後面照護的品質，但如果要兩個醫師界定末期，其實需要很多溝通。譬如剛剛講的心肺復甦術和插管部分，他原來講不要，大概那時候也不會做，但是在臨床上真的有很多決策，到底這個狀況打抗生素有沒有用？打人工營養、水分是養到壞細胞比較多，還是養到正常的細胞？你一直幫他打，打到細胞一直大起來，但他的肉一點都沒有增加，這都是很專業的問題，這就是communication is the key，就是要一直溝通，每天我們都在做倫理決策，這個請放心，臺灣的安寧照護品質是世界第三、亞洲第一，所以要善用幾十年來建立的這樣一個有品質的團隊，我們一定會好好照顧病人。所以我覺得反而要宣導早一點來照會，就是病人如果到比較重病的時候，應該早一點，不管是思考ACP或思考接受安寧緩和醫療照顧，這個教育非常重要，因為不但可以早一點追求善終的路，生死兩相安，也讓資源得到最好的合理分配。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我覺得這條路真的……確實你看從2019到現在，簽署的人才十萬多人，數字真的非常少，真的是非常少。"],["邱部長泰源：對，當然徒法不足以自行，所以還有很多需要大家繼續努力。"],["黃委員秀芳：還要繼續努力啦！"],["邱部長泰源：但是我們後面的照顧團隊是很堅強的，可以解決很多問題。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃委員、謝謝部長。","請王正旭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","莊瑞雄","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳培瑜","楊曜","陳瑩","涂權吉","陳菁徽"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；二、委員劉建國等\n16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利\n法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00007"}}},{"id":"160902","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160902","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc01850ac639600444f2bf9a8039e28b7ca5144d4d67ecd09c161e0ed21dd71ae2c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:46:25 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謝謝主席 主席請速發部黃部長好 黃部長好 邱委員好部長好 部長北溪上週在質詢有關打炸APP的時候就已經有發現了所以今天北溪要再確認一次這個APP到現在是不是還是在公測的階段現在還是在公測的階段現在還是在公測的階段 那我想要請問什麼時候正式版才會推出請署長回答"},{"start":30.782,"end":42.963,"text":"我們有設定一個下載數以及通報數下載數因為上次您有提到嘛去年上架後來又下架今年四月再次上架那為什麼到目前還是公測版的"},{"start":45.838,"end":68.553,"text":"謝謝委員那個基本上是坦白講是因為我們這個APP那個第一次公測的時候那個反應非常好就使用的人數太大太多結果造成我們那個各部會要做會議因為本席有印象上次提到在安卓平台的下載數他大概約為五千人那部長也有提到是在LOS平台上面約萬人下載嗎"},{"start":69.794,"end":88.089,"text":"OK 所以因為人數太多的關係嗎我們要確定我們的系統承載的了不是硬體的系統承載的了而是說因為有些我們現在是大部分是用自動化的方式來處理但是還是有少部分需要各部會去做確認那我們是擔心說造成各部會太大"},{"start":88.829,"end":108.274,"text":"短時間之間我們要確定說都能順利的如果看到這個APP上面 譬如說他們在Meta上面發現有詐騙廣告然後會藉由這個APP來回報那你們還要跟警管會再來確認沒有錯吧然後才能認定他到底是不是詐騙那我想請問這樣子全國性的政策打造工具還停留在測試測試的階段這樣推得動嗎那個"},{"start":112.281,"end":141.15,"text":"我們到目前為止我們這個成效應該算是相當不錯的我們收到的通報量跟下架量可不可以慢慢說通報量目前是19萬那我們下架量是10萬那不好意思我想再確認那什麼時候正式版的會推出這個其實已經是就是公測版其實已經是正式的所以這公測版就是正式的只是我們保留一些如果還有bug的話我們還要再來修改這樣"},{"start":141.946,"end":152.27,"text":"OK 了解那本席上次也有提到就是希望可以提高民眾的使用率嘛那也有說要不要加入獎勵機制那後面速發部有再回去討論嗎獎勵機制嗎再討論一下"},{"start":156.181,"end":176.01,"text":"有 我們現在後續可能有在研議怎麼去把這個東西推廣下去例如說我們如果後續有一些到民眾去啊 到像有一些熱領的一些社區看看怎麼去推廣去下載這些東西OK 好 謝謝那本席請再請NCC陳代主委陳代主委不好意思 黃部長也先請留步 謝謝來 部長 部長是 主委早"},{"start":185.359,"end":212.603,"text":"隨著科技發展那現在手機和無線網路嘛一定是民眾生活中不可缺的工具不管是線上購物然後還是看新聞投資理財點外送全部都是仰賴手機還有無線網路那本席瞭解速發部在111年8月之前電信業務是由NCC獨立負責的沒有錯吧是的沒錯是那我們看到速發部成立之後才把部分的電信從NCC轉移過去那現在是速發部在主管是正確嗎"},{"start":213.933,"end":218.501,"text":"蘇發部在管平利資源跟產業輔導獎勵產業輔導獎勵因為本席為了要釐清業務的歸索那當時電信業務他一分為二的目的是什麼"},{"start":226.693,"end":245.027,"text":"就是因為NCC本身是個監理機關在通訊傳播基本法第三條第一項跟第二項分別有規劃出它基本的年輕的原則就是監理部分通常會做獨立的監理至於頻率有限資源還有產業輔導本來頻率的"},{"start":253.41,"end":271.074,"text":"電信管理法電信業的主管機關是NCC剛剛主委您有提到那電信評估的規劃分配還有核定是誰負責的現在因為在數位部成立之後行政院有公告那一塊是數位部那電信門號的回收還有分配呢"},{"start":272.577,"end":294.846,"text":"也是數位部也是速發部那收取固定還有行動通訊的頻率然後電信號碼的使用費用是誰在收應該也是數位部也是數位部啊不是NCC在收嗎電信號碼也是電信資源所以他電信資源整塊的分配管理都是在那邊那這樣的權責分配兩位認為合理嗎"},{"start":300.46,"end":317.857,"text":"應該是說在政府間的合作上有些是基於這個出發點是因為當初是獨立監理是要一個機關我們看到5G是先由速發部來核定頻率接著再由NCC就是通傳會來審慮它的營運計畫還有網路建設的計畫那這樣是流程是這樣子沒有錯吧"},{"start":322.898,"end":346.752,"text":"大致是這樣沒錯大致是這樣那是不是這樣我也不需要確認了平面的拍賣是數位部然後拍賣拍賣取得這中取得特許執照的過程裡頭NCC的角色是那行動寬頻專用電信網路設置的使用管理辦法他主管機關是誰數位部現在又變成數位部那數位部他具體審核哪些項目我們是我請產業署署長來說"},{"start":349.568,"end":378.88,"text":"就是它4.8到4.9Ghz那一塊的專用它是為促進產業發展 垂直應用的那一塊那4.8、4.9這一塊是由樹山署這邊來召開委員會來審查所以就是可能場地主有需要的話他就來申請那我們這邊召開委員會審查的時候通過就核發那個評估使用也是將來的主導是因為建設計畫是在通常會來審嗎那審查的標準的方式是什麼你們兩邊怎麼來做協調我們會有兩個部位的共同的一個審查的一個機制"},{"start":381.706,"end":405.283,"text":"這樣子看下來真的有點匪夷所思就是什麼情況現在母法是在NCC可是執法一大堆都是丟在數位部各位補充一下母法本身也有分工那個清真有公告第幾條 第幾條是數位部 第幾條 第幾條是NCC所以你認為現在目前的分工合理嗎就沒有問題嗎民眾不會搞不清楚嗎業者會認為說他會比較累一點他會比較累一點那你們有沒有想過要再去做調整"},{"start":407.277,"end":422.542,"text":"還是業者累沒關係不要累到你們就好民眾的福利能夠保持住比較重要民眾什麼福利啊我們都知道真的主委你這個說法我其實如果今天我們沒有這樣子一一的攤開來看我相信很多民眾也都不知道都是因為我們兩個部位合作的合作無間所以對民眾連他相對不知道但是他感覺上跟你們合作無間你確定嗎"},{"start":436.246,"end":464.222,"text":"總是會有討論啦總是會有討論那我覺得我是覺得你們還是要再回去再研議啦因為目前的這樣分工看起來這樣一刀兩切亂七八糟的可以主委請再跟部長我們回去再做討論好嗎這個是行政院級的議題我們會再討論所以行政院說了算嗎你們覺得這樣子這樣子也沒關係嗎因為現在的層次是行政院的職權OK好謝謝主席好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":689,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時46分）謝謝主席，請數發部黃部長。"],["主席：黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：邱委員好。"],["邱委員若華：部長好。本席上週質詢有關打詐app的時候就已經發現了，所以今天本席要再確認一次，這個app到現在是不是還在公測階段？"],["黃部長彥男：現在還是在公測階段。"],["邱委員若華：現在還是在公測階段，那我想要請問什麼時候正式版才會推出？"],["黃部長彥男：請署長回答。"],["林署長俊秀：我們有設定下載數以及通報數。"],["邱委員若華：下載數。因為上次您提到，去年上架後來又下架，今年4月再次上架，為什麼到目前還是公測版的？"],["林次長宜敬：謝謝委員，基本上，坦白講是因為我們這個app第一次公測的時候，反應非常好，結果使用的人數太多，造成各部會要做回應。"],["邱委員若華：本席有印象，上次提到在安卓平臺的下載數約為5,000人，部長也提到在iOS平臺上面約萬人下載嘛！"],["林次長宜敬：對。"],["邱委員若華：OK，所以是因為人數太多的關係嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：我們要確定我們的系統承載得了，不是那個硬體的系統承載得了，我們現在大部分是用自動化方式處理，但還是有少部分需要各部會做確認，那我們是擔心造成各部會太大……短期內要確定都能順利地……"],["邱委員若華：因為我看到這個app上面，比如他們在Meta上面發現有詐騙廣告，會藉由這個app回報，你們還要跟金管會再確認，沒有錯吧？然後才能認定它到底是不是詐騙。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["邱委員若華：我想請問，全國性的政策，打詐工具還停留在測試階段，這樣推得動嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：到目前為止，我們的這個成效應該算是相當不錯。我們收到的通報量跟下架量，可不可以麻煩……"],["林署長俊秀：通報量目前是19萬，我們下架量是10萬。"],["邱委員若華：那我想再確認，什麼時候正式版會推出？"],["林署長俊秀：公測版其實已經是政策了。"],["邱委員若華：所以這個公測版就是正式的……"],["林署長俊秀：是，只是我們也保留一些，如果還有bug的話我們還要再修改。"],["邱委員若華：了解。本席上次提到希望可以提高民眾的使用率，也有說要不要加入獎勵機制，之後數發部有再回去討論嗎？"],["林組長青嶔：有，我們後續可能有再研議怎麼把這個東西推廣下去，例如我們後續到一些樂齡社區看看怎麼推廣去下載這些東西。"],["邱委員若華：好，謝謝。","本席再請NCC陳代主委。"],["主席：陳代主委。"],["邱委員若華：不好意思，黃部長也先請留步，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：主委早。隨著科技發展，現在手機和無線網路已經是民眾生活中不可缺的工具，不管是線上購物還是看新聞、投資理財、點外送，全部都仰賴手機還有無線網路。本席了解，數發部在111年8月之前，電信業務是由NCC獨立負責的，沒有錯吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是的，沒錯。"],["邱委員若華：我們看到數發部成立之後，才把部分的電信從NCC轉移過去，現在是數發部在主管，正確嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：數發部在管頻率資源跟產業輔導獎勵。"],["邱委員若華：產業輔導獎勵。因為本席要釐清業務的歸屬，當時電信業務一分為二之目的是什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為NCC本身是個監理機關，在通訊傳播基本法第三條第一項跟第二項分別有規劃出基本的釐清原則，就是監理部分由通傳會做獨立的監理事務，至於頻率有限資源還有產業輔導，頻率的那一塊本來是在交通部郵電司，所以當時資源、產業輔導是分離的。"],["邱委員若華：那本席就問，電信管理法、電信業的主管機關是NCC，剛剛主委您有提到，電信頻譜的規劃、分配與核定是誰負責的？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：現在數位部成立之後，行政院有公告……"],["邱委員若華：是誰負責的？您直接說。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：那一塊是數位部。"],["邱委員若華：電信門號的回收與分配呢？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：也是數位部。"],["邱委員若華：也是數發部。收取固定及行動通訊頻率及電信號碼使用費是誰在收？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：應該也是數位部。"],["邱委員若華：也是數位部嗎？不是NCC在收嗎？電信號碼的費用。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：號碼也是電信資源，電信資源整塊的分配管理都是在那邊。"],["邱委員若華：這樣的權責分配，兩位認為合理嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：應該是說，在政府間的合作上有些是基於……出發點是因為，當初獨立的監理司是要一個機關，產業輔導是另外一個機關。"],["邱委員若華：我們看到5G是先由數發部核定頻率，接著再由NCC，就是通傳會審議它的營運計畫及網路建設計畫，流程是這樣子沒有錯吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：大致是這樣沒錯。"],["邱委員若華：大致是這樣？是不是這樣？本席要確認。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：頻率的拍賣是數位部，然後拍賣取得特許執照的過程裡頭，NCC的角色是網路……"],["邱委員若華：行動寬頻專用電信網路設置使用管理辦法，它的主管機關是誰？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：數位部產業署。"],["邱委員若華：現在又變成數位部。數位部具體審核哪些項目？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們是不是請產業署署長來說明？就是4.8到4.9GHz那一塊的專用，它是會促進產業發展、垂直應用的那一塊……"],["林署長俊秀：4.8、4.9這一塊是由數產署這邊召開委員會來審查……有需要的話他就來申請，我們這邊召開委員會審查，通過之後就核發頻譜使用以及將來的執照。"],["邱委員若華：因為建設計畫是在通傳會審，審查的標準和方式是什麼，你們兩邊怎麼協調？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們會有兩個部會共同的一個審查機制……"],["邱委員若華：本席這樣子看下來真的有點匪夷所思，是什麼情況？現在母法是在NCC，可是子法一大堆都是丟在數位部。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員補充報告，母法本身也有分工，行政院有公告第幾條、第幾條是數位部，第幾條、第幾條是NCC。"],["邱委員若華：主委認為目前的分工合理嗎？這沒有問題嗎？民眾不會搞不清楚嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：業者會認為他會比較累一點。"],["邱委員若華：他會比較累一點，那你們有沒有想過要再去做調整？還是業者累沒關係，只要累不到你們就好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：民眾的福利能夠保持住比較重要。"],["邱委員若華：民眾什麼福利啊？我們都知道……主委你這個說法……如果今天我們沒有這樣一一攤開來看，我相信很多民眾也都不知道。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就是因為我們兩個部會合作無間，所以對民眾而言，他相對不知道，但是他感覺上跟……"],["邱委員若華：你們合作無間？你確定嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：嗯，總是會有討論啦，就這樣子。"],["邱委員若華：總是會有討論？那我是覺得你們回去還是要再研議啦！因為目前這樣的分工看起來是一刀兩切、亂七八糟的！主委跟部長，你們回去再做討論好嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：這個是行政院層級的議題，我們會再來討論。"],["邱委員若華：所以行政院說了算，你們覺得這樣子也沒關係？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：因為組改的層次是行政院的職權。"],["邱委員若華：OK，好。謝謝主席。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱若華委員。","現在請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案；\n六、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00002"}}},{"id":"160901","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160901","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc0018bf8b85edecc042bf9a8039e28b7ca5144d4d67ecd09c1a3e401defcf2fd2e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"11:38:56 - 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請主席邀請黃部長好 黃部長委員好"},{"start":12.143,"end":30.533,"text":"今天委員會是針對新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案進行詢問我們也知道在網路興盛之後對於整個國人的閱聽習慣都有很大的改變尤其是對於新聞的閱讀方面"},{"start":33.594,"end":37.295,"text":"因為人手一機還有這個方便性所以大部分的國人都是從這個網路上來獲得這個新聞的一個閱讀跟訊息所以也造成傳統的這個新聞媒體就是尤其是報紙媒體這個訂閱率也下滑的非常的嚴重那目前就是"},{"start":56.159,"end":73.947,"text":"也因為這個網路平台的一方獨大所以也造成就是說有一些媒體雖然轉往網路來發展可是他們也是受制於這個媒體所以對他們的一個發展也是有很大的一個限制所以目前應該整個新聞產業跟這個媒體之間也是呈現一個不平衡的狀態"},{"start":82.426,"end":107.414,"text":"所以相信很多新聞產業媒體應該也都是傾向希望能夠朝向新聞有價這樣子的一個方向那本席也看到最近我們蘇發部的次長在出席一個公開的論壇一個記者會的時候也有說新聞應有價那我想請問一下部長這樣子的一個想法是我們蘇發部的立場嗎"},{"start":108.714,"end":123.307,"text":"從一開始那個我就一直認為這剛剛講沒錯因為那個這個新聞同業者他們剛剛講不管去採訪新聞或是去這個做這個新聞的編輯還有等等的工作其實是蠻辛苦所以應該是"},{"start":125.089,"end":144.633,"text":"工作上就要受到一定的酬勞所以不能夠因為平台業者的出現讓這些工作變成就是收入減少所以我們認為新聞有價是一定要去推動那這個是我們一直努力目標那只是在過程中我們也做了很多研究跟很多訪談那確實看到國際的情勢確實在這個時間點這個問題變得比較複雜所以我們目前還在評估所以這個"},{"start":154.915,"end":164.466,"text":"一定要推動但是也是有它的急迫性但是我們希望找到一個最好的方案讓台灣的新聞媒體能夠受益而不是受害"},{"start":165.163,"end":191.542,"text":"是那就是這個也是一個你說有急迫性也是需要推動的那請問部長我們蘇華部這邊有參考其他國家的做法嗎有我們就參考大概就三種做法嘛一種就是剛剛講就是就是我們強迫議價法那是以澳洲為主然後著作臨接權是以歐盟為主澳洲跟這個強迫議價法包括加拿大那當然還有一些基金的一些就配合基金的機制"},{"start":192.543,"end":207.416,"text":"那所以這三個方法都有國家在實施也都有遇到一些問題那尤其是我們現在的這個委員所提的這個強迫議價化所以主要是看澳洲那澳洲目前在2024年"},{"start":209.899,"end":226.917,"text":"幾乎這兩個大媒體包括Google包括Meta都停止復會所以這個會讓我們擔心我們推動因為我們真的要針對也是這兩個大媒體公司我們擔心說就是這樣的一個立法如果反照歐洲立法是不是會有效果"},{"start":227.798,"end":253.998,"text":"然後所以我們這個還在考慮說是不是有一種什麼樣混合的方法或怎麼樣方法來讓媒體能夠在商業機制的一個就是說有個正常的商業的一個商業的這個機制下能夠去去所謂的這個談判能夠得到該有的回應的報酬這個就是我們還在跟各方面在溝通然後我們也在觀察國際的發展趨勢"},{"start":255.532,"end":279.404,"text":"是 因為我們看到目前已經有實施就是澳洲還有加拿大還有歐盟那可是他們實施之後卻遭受到這個平台就是Meta跟Google的一個抵制拒絕付費然後甚至是封鎖他們的新聞的露出如果是這樣子一個狀況反而好像是對於這個閱聽者就是一般民眾"},{"start":280.663,"end":299.372,"text":"就是造成一個傷害這樣子又不是我們願意看到的一個結果那如果是這樣子的話就是說澳洲跟加拿大就這樣子的一個發生這樣狀況讓我們借鏡了如果說我們來實施媒體溢價法的話我們有那個能力去跟平台談判嗎這個就是我們所擔心的就是說事實上"},{"start":305.796,"end":330.421,"text":"因為像Meta在台灣的流量裡面小於3%的流量是跟新聞相關的所以它很可能會決定一樣不提供任何新聞所以事實上對一般媒體的流量反而會減少這是我們擔心的所以這個我們必須要再評估然後是不是要再我們當然也會持續跟Meta溝通我們希望找出一個大家可以接受的方案"},{"start":331.28,"end":345.461,"text":"是 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2024"},{"start":289.559,"end":297.022,"text":"78.82%的社群媒體使用者認為平台充斥的假新聞跟不實訊息那在即時通訊裡面有63.25%那在傳統的媒體裡面比例為59.81%那在這個民調裡面台灣國人接受訪問者有過半以上51.2%以上的受訪者是不信任政府有能力應對網路攻擊"},{"start":315.809,"end":341.578,"text":"這是一個數位治理的信任危機喔部長你有看過這份報告嗎這份報告你沒看過對不對部長你該看看我還要進一步問你原來你不知道這份報告這個呢是去年的報告去年的11月底公布的一個報告那去年11月底離現在又已經快過半年了部長你認為"},{"start":344.008,"end":367.083,"text":"你認為國人有比較相信你了嗎有比較信任數位發展部了嗎我們繼續努力啦那當然我們有很多時候需要跟群眾多溝通那這一這半年來我們的確在各方面有在不管是經過就是說經過新聞經過一些我們的努力希望民眾看到讓我們在數位治理能夠讓民眾相信"},{"start":367.743,"end":382.295,"text":"第一個你自己還沒有看過這份報告所以你也不知道原來國人是怎麼的不信任你第二個我們要如何積極的作為取回國人的信任尤其在這份報告裡面我們將近65%的國人在這個民調出來之前的三個月內就接受過詐騙訊息"},{"start":392.322,"end":408.392,"text":"我認為這個數據當然是參考但是部長你必須去認真的面對這些數據為什麼是我們對數位發展部的一個數位治理的信任危機那我們數位發展部又如何來迎回國人"},{"start":409.512,"end":434.346,"text":"對你們的信任嘛所以剛剛委員講就是說其實這裡面很多的觀點是從詐騙那詐騙確實我們在尤其是今年之後確實看到尤其是在網路平台上的詐騙有大量減少大概減少了百分之八九十所以慢慢民眾也感覺到就是說在臉書在一些平台上看到假冒名人廣告或假投資廣告有在減少但是當然我們還需要繼續努力不過"},{"start":435.186,"end":462.006,"text":"我們希望 投資廣告現在都進入LINE封鎖性的封閉性的那種群組裡面對 但是這個因為一開始你要把民眾引到一個封閉性的群組要從一個公開的平台那公開平台就是剛剛講以前都是臉書那這一塊是有建設不過一旦進入封鎖性的平台其實問題是我們也沒有辦法去偵測到所以我們現在是勸民眾一樣你要進入封鎖性平台教民眾怎麼試炸不要隨便進入這個平台"},{"start":462.806,"end":482.737,"text":"對 然後我們怎麼去主張所以夏業 我要提醒部長那你的信任危機要大作戰怎麼贏回國人對你們的信心跟信任所以我當然知道你們現在有很多的法令包括新的法令要立法那我只是在提醒從各自法裡面設了一個"},{"start":485.058,"end":498.072,"text":"個資長資通法裡面裡面有個資安長我們現在要推定的這個促進資料創新利用發展條例裡面要設一個資料長這個三長之間所謂的數位三長我只是提醒部長"},{"start":499.213,"end":518.07,"text":"要做數位治理要贏回國人的信任這三長之間的如何協調配合還有清楚的定位該做什麼任務這個你們要清楚的藍圖這個清楚的藍圖而且要跟國人說清楚啊部長給你短短的時間你對這三者之間該如何"},{"start":519.97,"end":538.925,"text":"這個都有他的需要啦那當然就是說這三長當然也有可能是這個我們機關的副所長或是類似這樣所以也有可能是有一個副所長會兼其中幾個職務不過不管怎麼樣我想這三長之間的工作的協調我們會把它定義清楚"},{"start":539.565,"end":556.664,"text":"所以目前還沒有定義清楚現在你們還沒有跨部會甚至在行政院的層級都還沒有討論到資安長資安長有資安長有我知道現在包括上市櫃公司都要有資安長還有各個我們行政機關ABC級都各自有各自的一個定位跟要求"},{"start":557.205,"end":580.91,"text":"那個資委員會正在成立中那資料促進創意條例也正在 草案正在審查中那因為在你們的法例裡面都有所謂的個資長跟資料長那現在又有資安長我只是要由國人的眼光來看我們數位發展部針對這個數位治理裡面的這三長我們該未來如何在框架下"},{"start":582.091,"end":602.857,"text":"互相的協調合作各有各的定位各有各的應該做的職責那我們如何把建構出一個數位治理的一個鐵三角而這鐵三角可以讓數位發展部真的引回國人的信心啦好不好好 以上好 謝謝好 謝謝何新淳"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":618,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（11時28分）謝謝召委，我們請黃部長。"],["主席：好，請數位部黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：何委員好。"],["何委員欣純：部長，在進入我今天的質詢之前，剛剛李昆澤委員在講有關平臺詐騙下架的問題，我上個禮拜也就所謂LINE個人帳號被盜用之後，他身邊的親友就被變造的LINE、假冒的LINE帳號詐騙，我記得那一次的質詢，你說要找平臺，要拜訪LINE總公司也好或是臺灣的公司也好，要喝咖啡聊一聊，聊了嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：次長昨天有聊，可不可以請次長？"],["何委員欣純：好，次長請說。有跟LINE坐下來談過之後，LINE的即時回應是什麼？"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，事實上我們昨天有跟LINE臺灣的總公司談過，他們現在已經上了一個新的版本，這個新的版本如果你的帳號被盜走以後，你馬上再登入可以馬上把你的帳號再搶回來，但是唯一的條件是必須趕快更新到最新的LINE版本，舊的版本沒有這個功能，所以我們現在努力在跟社會大眾宣導。"],["何委員欣純：有兩件事，第一個，如果是用更新後的LINE版本，新的版本我即時以個人去變更，這有即時嗎？我的意思是馬上變更就馬上成功嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：對。就是我如果更新到新的版本就可以馬上有這個保護。"],["何委員欣純：我們現在講的都是有沒有即時的問題，為什麼？我上個禮拜在質詢的時候，就是說以LINE的現況我們接收到很多的陳情，我的LINE個人帳號要是被盜用，我跟LINE提出陳報，陳報之後雖然受理卻只是一個客服，客服完之後就沒消息，可能要等個1個禮拜、10天，可能我的LINE被冒名的帳號還在外面四處去詐騙。"],["林次長宜敬：是，沒錯。"],["何委員欣純：現在我要求的是你跟LINE公司喝完咖啡、聊過了之後，第一個，你獲得的承諾是他們要變更版本，我們臺灣國人如果有人LINE的帳號被冒用，他現在可以用更新版即時地更新他的帳號？"],["林次長宜敬：是，沒錯。這是LINE跟我們講。"],["何委員欣純：第二個，即時更新的時候原來被冒用LINE的帳號，LINE從它自己本身那邊就馬上取消嗎？馬上鎖掉嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：LINE跟我們解釋的事情是這樣，假設我的LINE帳號被人家騙走，詐騙集團在另外一臺手機上去登入把我的帳號搶走，但是我在原來這臺手機上再登入一次以後，就可以馬上把這個LINE的帳號再搶回來。"],["何委員欣純：同時哦？同步嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：對。"],["何委員欣純：確定？技術上是這樣子？"],["林次長宜敬：是，他們是這樣跟我們講的。"],["何委員欣純：他們是這樣跟你講？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["何委員欣純：但是你是數位發展部，你有你的專業，你要告訴國人LINE講的對不對、能不能做到，我們國人等的是數發部要告訴國人以後如果LINE帳號被冒用、被盜，應該怎麼樣SOP緊急處理，以防他身邊周遭的人被詐騙。"],["林次長宜敬：是，現在依照我們得到的訊息，第一個就是要呼籲所有的民眾儘快更新LINE版本，更新到最新的版就有這個功能，依照LINE的講法，現在新的版本有這個功能，可以馬上把LINE帳號搶回來，這個事情我們會做驗證是不是如同他們所說的。"],["黃部長彥男：我已經驗證過了。"],["何委員欣純：部長已經驗證過，所以部長驗證LINE的說法、這個作法是可行的，而且是可以即時阻止詐騙？"],["黃部長彥男：我自己有兩個手機都驗證過。"],["何委員欣純：你驗證過，好，我們等著看。我不希望國人還繼續告訴我們他的LINE帳號被盜，結果周遭的人都被詐騙。"],["黃部長彥男：對，LINE這個新的功能，我有看了一下，確實你可以把那個……"],["何委員欣純：我希望數發部可以大力的宣傳，告知國人SOP如何阻詐，好不好？","第二個，我為什麼會提到這個？今天很多委員都在講假訊息、講詐騙。根據去年你們的新聞，TWNIC公布2024年台灣網路報告，也是我們自己台灣網路資訊中心所公布的，有78.82%的社群媒體使用者認為平臺充斥假新聞跟不實訊息，在即時通訊裡面有63.25%，在傳統的媒體裡面比例為59.81%。在這個民調裡面，臺灣國人接受訪問者有過半51.2%以上的受訪者是不信任政府有能力應對網路攻擊，這是數位治理的信任危機。部長，你有看過這一份報告嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：TWNIC這份報告……"],["何委員欣純：你沒看過，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["何委員欣純：部長，你應該看看這份報告。我還要進一步問你，原來你不知道有這一份報告，這是去年的11月底公布的報告，去年11月底離現在快過半年了。部長，你認為國人有比較相信你了嗎？有比較信任數位發展部了嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們繼續努力，我們有很多時候需要跟群眾多溝通，這半年來我們在各方面有在努力，不管是經過新聞跟我們的努力希望民眾看到，也讓我們在數位治理上能夠讓民眾相信數發部……"],["何委員欣純：部長，第一個，你自己還沒有看過這一份報告，所以你也不知道原來國人是多麼的不信任你。","第二個，我們如何積極作為來取回國人的信任，尤其在這份報告裡面，將近65%的國人在這個民調出來之前的3個月內就接受過詐騙訊息。我認為這個數據當然是參考，但是部長必須認真的面對這些數據為什麼是我們對數位發展部數位治理的信任危機，那數位發展部要如何贏回國人對你們的信任？"],["黃部長彥男：剛剛委員講的，這裡面很多的觀點是從詐騙，那詐騙，我們尤其是今年之後確實看到轉變，尤其是在網路平臺上的詐騙有大量減少，大概減少了80%到90%，所以慢慢民眾也感覺到，在臉書、一些平臺上看到假冒名人廣告或假投資廣告有在減少。但是當然我們還需要繼續努力，不過，我們希望從……"],["何委員欣純：投資廣告現在都進入LINE封閉性的那種群組裡面了。"],["黃部長彥男：對，因為一開始你要把民眾引到封閉性的群組，要從一個公開的平臺，那公開平臺以前都是臉書，這一塊是有減少。不過，一旦進入封鎖性的平臺，其實問題是我們也沒有辦法去偵測到，所以我們現在一樣是勸民眾，如果你要進入封鎖性平臺，教民眾怎麼識詐……"],["何委員欣純：識詐。"],["黃部長彥男：不要隨便進入這個平臺。"],["何委員欣純：對，然後我們怎麼去阻詐。我提醒部長，你的信任危機要大作戰，怎麼贏回國人對你們的信心跟信任？","我當然知道你們現在有很多的法令，包括新的法令要立法，我提醒從個資法裡面設了一個個資長，資通法裡面有一個資安長，我們現在要推訂的促進資料創新利用發展條例裡面又要設一個資料長，所謂的數位三長，我提醒部長要做數位治理，要贏回國人的信任，這三長之間如何協調配合，還有清楚的定位，該做什麼任務，這個你們要有清楚的藍圖，而且要跟國人說清楚。部長給你短短的時間，你對這三長之間該如何安排？"],["黃部長彥男：對，都有他的需要。這三長可能是機關的副首長，也有可能是一個副首長會兼其中幾個職務，不管怎麼樣，這三長之間工作的協調，我們會把它定義清楚。"],["何委員欣純：所以目前還沒有定義清楚，現在你們還沒有跨部會，甚至在行政院的層級都還沒有討論到？"],["黃部長彥男：資安長有。"],["何委員欣純：我知道資安長有，現在包括上市、櫃公司都要有資安長，還有各個行政機關ABC級都各自有各自的定位跟要求。"],["黃部長彥男：個資委員會正在成立中，促進資料創新利用發展條例草案正在審查中。"],["何委員欣純：因為在你們的法令裡面都有個資長跟資料長，那現在又有資安長，從國人的眼光來看，數位發展部針對數位治理裡面的這三長，未來如何在框架下互相協調合作，各有各的定位，各有各應該做的職責，我們如何建構出數位治理的鐵三角，而這鐵三角可以讓數位發展部真的贏回國人的信心，好不好？以上。"],["黃部長彥男：好，我們努力，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員。","請陳素月委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案；\n六、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00002"}}},{"id":"160899","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160899","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc026957957387b915e2bf9a8039e28b7ca5144d4d67ecd09c191e55a3148b2c4485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"11:20:28 - 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C我們會有跟國內外大廠合作"},{"start":114.791,"end":140.829,"text":"來提供軟硬體讓我們這個獨立遊戲用另外我們也建立了一個動捕的一個實驗室也是給這個獨立遊戲來使用我們要提供創新的基地然後讓這個提供他們實體的這些場域以及社群交流的這些場域而且我認為應該是要跟國內外大廠合作讓原廠來提供這些原廠的軟硬體的技術的一些資源"},{"start":143.157,"end":144.327,"text":"另外在行銷的部分來"},{"start":146.365,"end":172.362,"text":"那跟委員快速報告一下我們主要是國內外國內的話我們會在台北電軟展我們有獨立遊戲的專區在台北台中跟高雄的這個資訊樂我們會展示獨立遊戲的成果國際拓展的部分國際拓展我們去年就帶了我們兩個獨立遊戲業者去參加日本的Bit Summit那有兩個我們獨立遊戲廠商真的是表現得很好他們都獲得了大獎所以我們會持續這樣的一個路徑我們對於相關資金的這樣的一個"},{"start":176.445,"end":204.696,"text":"到位還是非常重要的那我們看到三位計畫被刪減了20億凍結了10億那刪減的部分是無法回頭啦但是凍結的部分應該要積極的解凍而且積極解凍之後我們要趕快的研議恢復獨立遊戲的這些獎補助來調整我們相關補助的規模因為錢還是被刪減的非常多過去一年補助8至10個"},{"start":205.816,"end":234.672,"text":"可能現在能補助幾個 二至三個 來 署長因為解凍還沒有開始然後這一個還要做一個申請 審查的我們會進來來努力看能不能救回幾個補助案這樣子那我們應該具體的恢復這些講補助的狀況有多少錢來做多少事那至少要補助二至三個遊戲另外我們也要協助找裁員找裁員來投入資金"},{"start":236.232,"end":262.509,"text":"給獨立遊戲的創作者要協助找裁員另外我們明年度要及早公布這些獨立遊戲的講座計畫的辦理程序這個都要提早另外時間我要請教相關網路詐騙的問題網路詐騙通報查詢網的成效我們必須來做檢視那到4月中旬通報了大概14萬筆的疑似詐騙廣告那大概有7萬4千筆確認下架"},{"start":265.411,"end":286.874,"text":"將近大概有50%左右是有效的處理每月看起來大概有一萬則疑似詐騙廣告被下架那其實看起來還是有大量通報沒有妥善的處理其實原因跟時程我們的社會大眾還不是很清楚我先請教一下沒有被下架的通報"},{"start":287.955,"end":304.025,"text":"大概是處於什麼狀態就是說他是通報是處於初步的確認還是我們這些核實的單位還在處理來簡單說明一下這個我再請那個署長說明跟委員報告只要可能有三種解第一個他不是詐騙"},{"start":305.982,"end":330.78,"text":"這是第一個 第二個當然是部會可能要一點時間在路途當中 第三個可能是它是高風險的所以它又變成是後來又變成高風險所以它有可能不是詐騙 也有可能是在確認當中也有可能它是高風險的一個詐騙的廣告對 但是不確定一定是詐騙的廣告那通常每一份通報你們處理的時間大概要多久 來說明一下"},{"start":331.923,"end":345.339,"text":"我們24小時內一定要處理24小時內一定要處理那沒有處理的原因就是剛才三樣的主要原因可能他不是或者是他可能是而且是高風險的或是還要繼續的確認那"},{"start":347.864,"end":372.055,"text":"我們針對網路詐騙的這些查詢網目前通報的數量是非常龐大對不對那處理的效率看起來大概只能處理到一半的問題這是我們內部機制的問題還是這些量能的問題來說明一下都有處理只是說剛剛講因為有些是確定不是詐騙所以我們就所以剛剛講說但是你處理的時效還是太慢了"},{"start":372.475,"end":396.164,"text":"你大概只能處理一半左右的我們現在是說相關的造成延誤的還沒有處理的必須要更明快要加強我們內部的機制來做確認以及處理來 署長說明一下是 跟委員報告 剛剛委員講14萬下架期那7萬是下架的但因為那7萬很多字是不是照片所以我們就沒有公佈在那個數字上面"},{"start":396.804,"end":424.802,"text":"這個都確認了那我問你這個廣告實名制實施到現在像Google、LINE、TikTok這些網路平台政府會要求他們24小時下架這些詐騙廣告對不對然後配合的情形呢目前都有配合配合的效率怎麼樣啊有像你講的24小時嗎 沒有啊來 署長說明一下"},{"start":427.973,"end":444.364,"text":"他們是會遵守法律的規定24小時但是有些可能他不認為是詐騙的所以這個是他需要更多的時間這個部分但是大部分的詐騙的訊息他會在24小時內下架這個都還是有相當大的問題的但是時間的關係"},{"start":446.385,"end":473.437,"text":"部長必須要督促相關的單位我們針對這些詐騙的廣告處理的時效以及處理的成果必須要快速而明確將近有一半都還在處於確認的狀態那這個對受到詐騙的民眾情何以堪必須更加強他的效力我們會加強努力 謝謝好 謝謝李坤澤委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":578,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（11時20分）謝謝召委，請黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：李委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：部長好。我們還是來關切有關於獨立遊戲的發展，獨立遊戲是國家軟實力發展的重要展現，請教一下，數發部對於獨立遊戲協助發展的重點在哪裡呢？請說明一下。"],["黃部長彥男：我們有對他們做資安的協助，另外我們還有一些獎金，也就是補助金，過去補助在軟體開發，我們有給一些計畫補助，大概是用這個方式去協助相關產業的發展。"],["李委員昆澤：好，在過去有上位計畫編了42億，刪減了20億，凍結了10億，單單獨立遊戲開發獎勵暨產品化加值計畫，這個部分原先編列了1,425萬，大概每年會補助8至10家獨立遊戲業者開發遊戲的基本動能。我們現在來討論一下，對於獨立遊戲的發展，我認為大概有三個面向要給予協助，第一個當然是在資金的開發；第二個是技術的發展；第三個是相關的行銷推廣。我們來討論一下場域及技術資源這個部分，數發部對於相關資源所做的重點是如何，請簡單說明一下。"],["黃部長彥男：這個我請數產署署長說明。"],["李委員昆澤：署長趕快，簡短說明。"],["林署長俊秀：謝謝委員長期關心獨立遊戲，在技術的部分，我們會在圓山附近的digiBlock C跟國內外大廠合作，提供軟硬體讓獨立遊戲使用，另外我們也建立了一個動捕的實驗室，也是給獨立遊戲來使用，以上。"],["李委員昆澤：我們要提供創新的基地，然後提供他們實體的場域以及社群交流的場域，而且我認為應該是要跟國內外大廠合作，讓原廠來提供一些軟硬體技術的資源，另外在行銷的部分呢？"],["林署長俊秀：跟委員快速地報告，我們主要是國內外，國內的部分，我們會在臺北電玩展有獨立遊戲的專區，在臺北、臺中跟高雄的資訊月，我們會展示獨立遊戲的成果。"],["李委員昆澤：國際拓展的部分呢？"],["林署長俊秀：國際拓展我們去年就帶我們2個獨立遊戲業者去日本參加Business Summit，有2個獨立遊戲廠商真的是表現得很好，他們都獲得大獎，所以我們會持續這樣的路徑。"],["李委員昆澤：對於相關資金的到位還是非常重要，我們看到上位計畫被刪減20億、凍結10億，刪減的部分是無法回頭，但是凍結的部分應該要積極解凍，而且積極解凍之後要趕快地研議恢復獨立遊戲的獎補助來調整相關補助的規模，因為錢還是被刪減非常多，過去一年補助8至10個，可能現在能補助幾個？2至3個？署長。"],["林署長俊秀：這因為階段還沒有開始，然後還要做申請、審查，我們會儘量努力看能不能救回幾個補助案。"],["李委員昆澤：我們應該具體恢復獎補助的狀況，有多少錢來做多少事，至少要補助2至3個遊戲。另外，也要協助找財源投入資金，要協助找財源給獨立遊戲的創作者，我們明年度要及早公布獨立遊戲獎助計畫的辦理程序，這個都要提早。","另外的時間，我要請教網路詐騙相關的問題，我們必須來檢視網路詐騙通報查詢網的成效，到4月中旬通報大概14萬筆疑似詐騙廣告，大概有7萬4,000筆確認下架，將近有50%左右是有效的處理，每月大概有1萬則疑似詐騙廣告被下架，看起來還是有大量通報沒有妥善的處理，其實原因跟時程我們的社會大眾還不是很清楚。我先請教一下，沒有被下架的通報大概是處於什麼狀態？通報是處於初步的確認？還是我們這些核實的單位還在處理？來，簡單說明一下。"],["黃部長彥男：這個我再請署長說明。"],["林署長俊秀：跟委員報告，主要可能有三種情形，第一個，它不是詐騙。第二個，部會可能要一點時間，在路途當中。第三個，可能它是高風險的。"],["李委員昆澤：所以有可能不是詐騙，也有可能是在確認當中，也有可能是高風險的詐騙廣告？"],["黃部長彥男：對，就是高風險，但是不確定一定是詐騙還是高風險。"],["李委員昆澤：好，通常每一份通報你們處理的時間大概要多久？說明一下。"],["林署長俊秀：我們24小時內一定要處理。"],["黃部長彥男：按規定是24小時。"],["李委員昆澤：沒有處理的就是剛才三樣主要原因嘛，可能它不是或者它可能是而且是高風險，或是還要繼續地確認。我們網路詐騙查詢網目前通報數量是非常龐大的，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["李委員昆澤：處理的效率看起來大概只能處理到一半，這是我們內部機制的問題還是量能的問題？說明一下。"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，都有處理，只是剛剛講因為有些確定不是詐騙，所以我們就……"],["李委員昆澤：但是你們處理的時效還是太慢，大概只能處理一半左右，我現在是說造成延誤還沒有處理的必須要更加快，要加強內部的機制來確認以及處理。署長說明一下。"],["林署長俊秀：跟委員報告，剛剛委員講14萬通報，7萬是下架的，但因為7萬很多不是詐騙，所以我們就沒有公布在數字上面。"],["李委員昆澤：廣告實名制實施到現在，像Google、LINE、TikTok這些網路平臺，政府會要求他們24小時下架詐騙廣告，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["李委員昆澤：配合的情形呢？"],["黃部長彥男：目前都有配合，都完全配合。"],["李委員昆澤：配合的效率怎麼樣？有像你講的24小時嗎？沒有啊！署長說明一下。"],["林署長俊秀：他們是會遵守法律的規定24小時，但是有些可能不認為是詐騙，所以這個部分需要更多的時間，但是大部分詐騙的訊息會在24小時內下架。"],["李委員昆澤：這個都還是有相當大的問題，但是時間的關係，部長必須督促相關的單位針對詐騙廣告處理的時效以及處理的成果必須要快速而明確，將近有一半都還處於確認的狀態，對受到詐騙的民眾情何以堪？必須更加強效率。"],["黃部長彥男：我們會加強努力，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝李昆澤委員。","現在請何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 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有請我們黃部長好 黃部長"},{"start":9.791,"end":29.223,"text":"部長我過去也曾經在媒體服務過好幾年所以現場的媒體朋友的辛苦我都感同身受所以我想藉由今天這個勞動節我們特別標題寫了新聞不能做白宮媒體溢價制度不能等那所以部長我想剛剛談了很多那我們這個新聞的"},{"start":33.086,"end":40.8,"text":"一家制度不是單一的法規問題要牽扯到這個國際平台的反應跟國際政經的情勢那部長怎麼樣看待這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":43.659,"end":72.922,"text":"包括就是說剛剛在報告都談過就是說基本上我想新聞有價是大家共生而且是全世界的問題那所以我覺得就是說我們希望找到一個model對台灣有利而且是對台灣所有的媒體不管大或小那所以在這裡面情況我們希望能夠進速能夠產生在不管是在政府單位之間或者是跟民間民眾之間能產生一個共識然後用這個共識去推動我們的立法這個是我們就要積極進行那現在也在"},{"start":73.762,"end":101.479,"text":"進行中就是當然部長我想就是剛剛有提到我們目前國際上有三種做法第一個就是強制溢價的一個模式比如像澳洲的一個立法那第二個基金模式比如說科的一個公共基金來做一個回饋那第三個就是一個駐作臨階權的一個模式那我特別要強調因為基金模式涉及到一個科稅的問題那在國際上也處於一個高度敏感的一個狀態"},{"start":102.591,"end":131.053,"text":"那過去美國也因為對於歐洲國家進行一個數位稅的一個反對甚至祭出一個貿易制裁的一個報復後來也是在OECD平台上也達到一個折衝的一個方案那部長是不是認為在這樣的一個新聞議題的方式上面到底哪一個模式我們必須要從一個法律依據還有產業的運作甚至國際貿易的風險的面向應該怎麼來去評估才是對我們比較有利的一個方向"},{"start":131.693,"end":150.743,"text":"對沒錯這個就是我們目前正在評估的因為尤其在這個時間點因為加入一些政治的考量跟國際關稅的考量問題是有一些就是說變成是複雜化所以在這個時候在這三個模式到底哪個模式對台灣最有效這個都還要再觀察"},{"start":151.563,"end":170.062,"text":"對阿部長但是觀察總是也要有一個階段性的處理啦不能一直只是在關稅問題這個settle down以後我們當然就是再觀察再看看再根據這個目前澳洲的這個澳洲是一個很好的一個平台就是說因為他用強制議價法那這個強制法在"},{"start":172.898,"end":197.234,"text":"在這個東西在目前看起來是不成功但是我們當然也許這個這個等到關稅這問題解決之後這個問題會不會解決我們也有待觀察不過目前的確這三個三個模式都有一些都有一些缺點這個就是對台灣哪一個最有效其實也是沒有共識所以因為沒有共識所以我們在目前沒有辦法提出個版本是能夠滿足"},{"start":198.755,"end":216.36,"text":"就是滿足大家就臺灣特別的需要所以這個我們希望能夠盡速有個定案但是還需要再跟大眾溝通好 部長謝謝辛苦了我們繼續努力那部長請回我們接著請熊熊傳播委員會我們的陳代理主委謝謝好 那個陳主委"},{"start":223.816,"end":252.318,"text":"主委我想新聞產業是我們民主社會不可或缺的一環那尤其這個數位平臺舉起之後對我們這個新聞內容的再利用其實對我們傳統的媒體也造成一個長期跟結構性的一個衝擊那過去我們通訊傳播委員會有在111年有辦一個我國廣電新聞媒體受數位平臺影響的一個產業調查請教主委這個研究是不是有公開"},{"start":257.626,"end":272,"text":"我的研究案應該是有相對的公開然後之前我們在我們今天報告其實也有提到大概重點大概是幾個就是說其實現在有些媒體不管是廣電的本身延伸的網路媒體"},{"start":274.302,"end":298.139,"text":"自媒體他們有些事已經有跟兩大平台已經在合作那他們比較在抱怨的是第一個他跟兩大平台的合作的分認這個機制是不透明的不對等的那他可能今天拿了100萬可能這個月拿100萬下個月可能不知道什麼原因突然就變成50萬他們就抱怨說這個分認機制是不透明的"},{"start":298.579,"end":317.317,"text":"那這是在沒有這個議價法之前的現狀是這樣子的那他們希望說未來能夠除了以流量當作分潤的依據之外能不能提出在議價法裡頭能不能導入一個非以流量為依歸的方式來做分潤他們的訴求是這樣子"},{"start":318.171,"end":331.471,"text":"主委那如果既然這樣的一個你們針對這樣一個新聞溢價的部分有一個制度性的一個建議那是不是應該要掌握更完整的一個產業太陽是不是進行全面性的一個調查有沒有這個必要性"},{"start":332.795,"end":348.454,"text":"是的 那所以在那個原來數位部三輪八場裡頭我們就之前行政院有分工協調我們負責產業調查之後的報告我們有在那種場合持續有跟政府也好跟兩大平台有持續在討論"},{"start":349.964,"end":371.521,"text":"所以我想我們會會也支持一個新聞有價應該合理分潤的一個原則我想這個原則下面應該也要怎麼樣讓我們的針對媒體業者反映的這些諸多的一個問題包含透明度包含這個分潤制度包含這個平台經營的一個風險壓力的部分應該做更謹慎的一個處理"},{"start":374.343,"end":402.021,"text":"那我想這個新聞我們的新聞媒體的先進們大家都很辛苦都在第一線報導我們的所有的這個新聞那他們也是生產公共知識的一個勞工但是過去長期處於一個低薪不穩定過勞的一個狀態那我想我們也應該要捍衛他們的一個權益那為了我想包含我們的數位部包含我們的通傳會還有相關包含勞動部我想這幾個單位我們應該共同努力盡快把這樣的一個"},{"start":402.882,"end":412.199,"text":"新聞的一個不能做白宮的一個方式這個制度應該趕快廢掉讓我們的媒體一家制度趕快上路以大家共同來努力謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":554,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時13分）謝謝主席，有請黃部長。"],["主席：好，黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：徐委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長好。部長，我過去曾經在媒體服務過好幾年，所以現場媒體朋友的辛苦我都感同身受，藉由今天是勞動節，我的標題特別寫了「新聞不能做白工，媒體議價制度不能等」。部長剛剛談了很多，我們新聞的議價制度不是單一的法規問題，還牽扯到各個國際平臺的反應跟國際政經情勢，部長怎麼樣看待這樣的狀況？"],["黃部長彥男：剛剛在報告都談過，基本上新聞有價是大家的共識，而且是全世界的問題，所以我們希望找到一個model對臺灣有利，而且是對臺灣所有媒體有利，不管大或小，在這樣的情況下，我們希望能夠儘速在政府單位之間，或者是跟民眾之間能產生一個共識，然後用這個共識去推動我們的立法，這個是我們需要積極進行的，現在也在進行中。"],["徐委員富癸：部長剛剛有提到，目前國際上有三種作法，第一個是強制議價的模式，比如像澳洲的立法；第二個是基金模式，比如課徵公共基金來做回饋；第三個就是著作鄰接權的模式。我要特別強調，因為基金模式涉及到課稅的問題，在國際上也處於高度敏感的狀態，過去美國也因為歐洲國家徵收數位稅而反對，甚至祭出貿易制裁的報復，後來也是在OECD平臺上達到一個折衝的方案。部長是不是認為在這樣的新聞議題方式上，到底哪一個模式可行？我們必須要從法律依據還有產業運作，甚至國際貿易風險的面向，應該怎麼評估才是對我們比較有利的方向？"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員，沒錯，這就是我們目前正在評估的，尤其在這個時間點，因為加入了一些政治考量跟國際關稅的考量，讓問題變成複雜化，所以這個時候要在這三個模式中思考到底哪個模式對臺灣最有效，這都還要再觀察。"],["徐委員富癸：對啦，部長，但是觀察總要有一個階段性的處理，不能一直只是在……"],["黃部長彥男：我們希望儘速，關稅問題settle down以後，我們當然就是再觀察看看，根據目前澳洲的這個……因為澳洲是一個很好的平臺，他們用強制議價法，強制議價法這個東西目前看起來不成功，但是也許等到我們關稅問題解決之後，這個問題會不會也解決仍有待觀察，不過目前的確這三個模式都有一些缺點，其實哪一個對臺灣最有效，目前也沒有共識，也因為沒有共識，所以我們還沒有辦法提出一個版本能夠滿足臺灣特別的需要，我們希望能夠儘速有一個定案，但還是需要再跟大眾溝通。"],["徐委員富癸：好，部長謝謝，辛苦了，我們繼續努力。部長請回，接著請通訊傳播委員會的陳代理主委，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請陳主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，我想新聞產業是我們民主社會不可或缺的一環，尤其數位平臺崛起之後對新聞內容的再利用，其實也對我們傳統媒體造成了長期跟結構性的衝擊。過去通訊傳播委員會在111年辦了一個「我國廣電新聞媒體受數位平臺影響產業調查」，請教主委，這個研究是不是有公開？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們的委託研究案應該是有相對應公開，在我們今天的報告其實也有提到，重點大概是幾個，其實現在有些媒體，不管是廣電本身衍生的網路媒體或者自媒體，他們有些已經有跟兩大平臺合作，他們比較抱怨的是，第一個，他們跟兩大平臺的合作分潤機制是不透明的、不對等的，他們可能這個月拿100萬，下個月可能不知道什麼原因突然就變成50萬，他們抱怨這個分潤機制是不透明的，這是在沒有議價法之前的現狀，他們希望未來能夠除了以流量當作分潤的依據之外，能不能在議價法裡頭導入一個非以流量為依規的方式來做分潤，他們的訴求是這樣子的。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，既然你們針對新聞議價的部分有一個制度性的建議，那是不是應該要掌握更完整的產業態樣？是不是進行全面性的調查？有沒有這個必要性？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是的，所以原來在數位部的3輪8場會議裡頭，就之前行政院的分工協調，我們負責產業調查報告，我們有在該場合跟政府及兩大平臺持續的討論。"],["徐委員富癸：對啦，我想我們也會支持新聞有價，應該合理分潤的原則嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["徐委員富癸：在這個原則之下，應該也要針對媒體業者反映的這些諸多問題，包含透明度、分潤制度，包含平臺經營的風險壓力做更謹慎的處理。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["徐委員富癸：我們的新聞媒體先進們都很辛苦，都在第一線報導所有的新聞，他們也是生產公共知識的勞工，但是過去長期處於低薪不穩定、過勞的狀態，我想我們也應該要捍衛他們的權益，未來包含數位部、通傳會還有勞動部，我想這幾個單位應該共同努力，儘快把新聞做白工的方式及制度趕快廢掉，讓我們的媒體議價制度趕快上路，需要大家共同來努力，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：會的，我們會持續努力。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。","現在請李昆澤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 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來負擔但是這個流量跟收益卻絕大多數給了他們"},{"start":139.835,"end":158.443,"text":"那其實對於本土的新聞業者來講其實是非常辛苦的一個部分喔那我們台灣大概將近40%其實包含你我啦我們平常只是在看新聞的時候其實我們可能會透過臉書或者是我們會透過LINE等一些所謂的這樣子的一個數位平台在接收這些新聞的一個資訊喔"},{"start":160.304,"end":180.003,"text":"但是呢我們難免都會變成是一個我們台灣自己本土的新聞的產出變成淪為所謂的這個犧牲者啦所以從2021年我知道這個行政院其實也承諾推動要新聞議價的一個制度那也成立了新聞媒體跟數位平台議價制度的一個推動小組"},{"start":181.304,"end":201.681,"text":"要來積極做這件事情但是三年過去了到底我們這個目前為止我們看不到任何具體的一個立法的草案那目前也等不到對外公佈的一個時程跟整個所有的制度的一個架構那據本席了解這個新聞議價的推動小組從去年的3月13號之後就沒有再開過會議了是嗎"},{"start":203.919,"end":219.674,"text":"好那請問這個目前該小組到底實際的運作的狀況是如何然後另外呢還有一個新聞產業跟大型數位平台對話的一個機制最後一次的會議也是落在2023年的9月6號之後也就沒有下文了"},{"start":220.214,"end":247.46,"text":"那這個部分其實我們真的也非常非常的懷疑就是說我們一直從2021年講到現在其實將近不是三年過去其實是快四年的一個時間到底我們現在溢價的模式是什麼我們的方向又是如何我們要怎麼樣來保障地方的媒體跟非營利的新聞深入報導的生存的發展這其實非常非常的重要那剛剛其實有很多的委員他們也特別提到國外的一個例子那麼不管是說"},{"start":249.521,"end":273.124,"text":"歐盟他們是用所謂的臨階權立法或者是加拿大他們是用所謂的新聞的基金那另外呢像澳洲他們是強制議價加上這個仲裁喔那我想要問的就是目前到底我們的會議中斷的原因是什麼那接著下來我們議價的模式又是什麼有沒有一個比較接近的一個進程是讓我們可以"},{"start":273.724,"end":298.907,"text":"能夠看得見到底我們的方向在哪裡我們的共識在哪裡我們的跨部會的一個整合這個共識有沒有一個具體的一個方向請部長謝謝委員的觀察跟這項的建議的確啦這個新聞有價是大家的共識那只是說這個問題不是只有台灣的問題也就是說這個目前像這個網路平台"},{"start":300.788,"end":318.621,"text":"就是等於說他們吸引走大量的一個流量影響到當地的一些媒體的一些大家的一些所謂的商業的一些營收那這個東西當然是一定要處理那我上任之後其實有在跟很多學者很多工協會有討論過這個議題"},{"start":320.382,"end":339.574,"text":"那當然就是說這個議題在過去我上任之後因為過去這一兩年的確也發生很大變化因為不管是我們去觀察國際因為剛剛講這是國際性的問題但幾個重要的指標一個就是澳洲然後一個就是加拿大那當然是包括歐盟那原先我上任的時候那時候"},{"start":341.095,"end":360.835,"text":"因為開國這幾次會那時候認為說可能又因為AI的發展所以那時候可能認為是那個就是所謂的著作臨接權是一個可能可以推動方向不過從歐盟這個推動一年多以來目前對媒體的營收也感覺上沒有太大的注意所以這個到底是哪個"},{"start":361.435,"end":382.804,"text":"我們先不要管歐盟他們的這個所謂的什麼媒體營收有沒有多大的一個注意那是國外的一個方向但是問題是歐盟這樣子的一個做法其實他也同樣的保護了他們自己本身的一些新聞的內容是不要被免費轉載這些事情其實很重要我們是你先怎麼樣保護我們本土的新聞業者"},{"start":384.105,"end":398.887,"text":"新聞的媒體的業者來做這樣子的一個出發點然後再來討論比方說你講澳洲其實Google跟Meta他們也是乖乖的付錢大概將近有300付錢給澳洲的300家的媒體啊他算是他在2024年就停止了這個這個付費所以"},{"start":400.049,"end":418.905,"text":"所以就是說這個model為什麼我們會忽然間就稍微有點這個還在觀察就是說澳洲的模式在目前我們各個那要觀察到什麼時候經濟學人的報導包括我們現在看到澳洲的目前的因為就是其實講起來就兩家公司一個叫Google一個叫Meta那Meta是完全不配合不管是在哪個國家"},{"start":420.146,"end":448.183,"text":"那Google是有一開始在澳洲有配合不過目前也暫停了所以這個加大也暫停所以我就說因為這個這個制度怎麼讓這兩個公司把就能夠適當的補助或是協助當地的媒體在其他國家好像都還需要再觀察然後再加上最近複雜化是因為這關稅的問題所以我覺得在這個時間點我們沒辦法確定哪一個是對台灣最有利"},{"start":448.183,"end":468.784,"text":"但是因為一年拖過一年一天拖過一天其實如果一直一直處於這種未定一直覺得別人怎麼樣然後我們可能就會怎麼樣其實這個部分也也真的會延遲我們的這個所謂的溢價的一個進程啊所以我們現在就是在過去這一兩年當然就兩三年就是google那個model就是共榮基金這個model"},{"start":469.645,"end":495.358,"text":"看有沒有辦法讓Google跟甚至Meta能夠來用這個Model對台灣媒體有些幫助是我們覺得可以再進行去溝通協調在立法之前那立法之後當然就是說我們確定哪個法是有效是我們當然會快速的去立法那但是說在這個立法之前也許Google的共同基金Model是一個Model另外一個可能的做法是"},{"start":496.058,"end":524.43,"text":"的確啦 這個整個因為技術的進步我們各個產業都需要做數位轉型所以怎麼樣幫媒體做數位轉型也是我們數化部現在在考慮的好 因為今天我們的時間有限喔但是我們在面臨所謂的這個跨國平台的一個壓力我們怎麼樣先保護我們自己本身的這個新聞的業者跟我們自己的這個媒體的平台這個才是真正的出發點另外其他的國家的model我們當然是拿來做這些參考但不動其實我們就不知道怎麼樣去應對"},{"start":525.791,"end":532.628,"text":"我們有再積極再做好那我們希望盡快如果有新的精神麻煩再提供給我們辦公室好謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":531,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時4分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：郭委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長早安。今天本席要談的就是新聞媒體跟數位平臺議價制度的問題，當我們更深入地去探討這樣子的一個問題，會發現這已經不只是新聞產業的生死問題，更有可能會關係到臺灣民主是不是能夠正常運作的根本。先講一個大家都知道，但是也很無奈的狀況，我們每天在滑手機、看新聞的同時，其實絕大多數的廣告收入大概有七成到八成是被Google或者是Meta這種跨國的平臺給拿走了。這些所謂的國際跨國平臺，光是2019年其實已經具有大概458億的市場規模，這個數字其實還滿驚人的，但是真正產出內容的，或者是冒著風險正在追蹤真相的本土新聞平臺，他們辛苦耕耘的結果卻是被這些平臺給剝奪了。這樣新聞媒體、偏鄉的新聞當然可能會消失，地方的報導也可能會不見，這其實都是我們最關心的──臺灣第四權正在一點一滴地被侵蝕殆盡，最主要的原因就是廣告的收益其實都流入到其他跨國的平臺，所以為什麼我們平臺的議價制度要趕快建立？其實真的是當務之急。","根據統計，從2011年到2021年臺灣新聞媒體的廣告收入已經下滑了45%以上。另外，累積流失的廣告金額將近600億之多，我想Google或者是Meta控制了臺灣超過七成的數位廣告市場，也就是說，新聞的產製其實都是由臺灣本土的媒體自行來負擔，但是這個流量跟收益卻絕大多數給了他們，對於本土的新聞業者來講，其實是非常辛苦的一個部分。我們臺灣有將近40%，其實包含你、我，我們平常在看新聞的時候，可能會透過臉書或者是透過LINE等等的數位平臺在接收這些新聞的資訊，但是我們難免都會造成臺灣本土新聞產出後淪為所謂的犧牲者。所以從2021年，我知道行政院其實也承諾要推動新聞議價的制度，也成立了新聞媒體跟數位平臺議價制度的推動小組，要來積極做這件事情，但是三年過去了，目前為止我們看不到任何具體的立法草案，也等不到對外公布的時程跟整個制度的架構。據本席了解，這個新聞議價的推動小組從去年3月13號之後就沒有再開過會議了，是嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：請問目前該小組到底實際的運作狀況如何？另外還有一個新聞產業跟大型數位平臺對話的機制，最後一次的會議也是落在2023年9月6號，之後也沒有下文了，這個部分其實我們真的非常、非常的懷疑，從2021年一直講到現在，不是三年過去，其實是將近四年的時間，到底我們現在議價的模式是什麼？我們的方向又是如何？我們要怎麼樣來保障地方媒體跟非營利新聞深入報導的生存發展？這其實非常非常的重要，剛剛其實有很多的委員也特別提到國外的例子，不管是說歐盟，他們是用所謂的鄰接權立法，或者是加拿大，他們是用所謂的新聞基金，另外像澳洲，他們是強制議價加上仲裁。我想要問的就是，目前到底你們會議中斷的原因是什麼？接下來我們的議價模式又是什麼？有沒有一個比較接近的進程，是讓我們能夠看得見到底我們的方向在哪裡，我們的共識在哪裡，我們跨部會的整合，這個共識有沒有一個具體的方向？請部長說明。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員的觀察跟建議。的確，新聞有價是大家的共識，只是這個問題不是只有臺灣的問題，也就是說目前像網路平臺吸走了大量的流量，影響到當地媒體的一些商業營收，這個東西當然是一定要處理的。我上任之後，其實跟很多的學者、很多的公協會有討論過這個議題，當然，這個議題在我上任之後，過去這一、兩年的確也發生很大變化。剛剛講這是國際性的問題，我們去觀察國際幾個重要的指標，一個就是澳洲，一個是加拿大，當然也包括歐盟。原先我上任的時候，開過了這幾次會，那時候可能是因為AI的發展，所以認為著作鄰接權是一個可能可以推動的方向，不過從歐盟推動一年多的狀況來看，目前對媒體的營收感覺上也沒有太大的助益，所以這個到底是哪個……"],["郭委員昱晴：我們先不要管歐盟的推動對媒體營收有沒有多大的助益，那是國外的一個方向，但是問題是歐盟這樣子的一個作法，其實它也同樣的保護了他們自己本身的一些新聞的內容是不要被免費轉載，這件事情其實很重要。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們是先以怎麼樣保護我們本土的新聞媒體業者來作一個出發點，然後再來討論。比方說你講澳洲，其實Google跟Meta也是乖乖付錢給澳洲的300家媒體。"],["黃部長彥男：但是它在2024年就停止了付費，所以這個model為什麼會忽然間稍微有點……我們還在觀察，就是澳洲的模式，在目前我們……"],["郭委員昱晴：那要觀察到什麼時候？"],["黃部長彥男：依經濟學人的報導，包括我們現在看到澳洲目前的……因為其實講起來就兩家公司，一個叫Google，一個叫Meta，Meta是完全不配合，不管是在哪個國家。Google一開始在澳洲有配合，不過目前也暫停，加拿大也暫停。所以這個制度怎麼讓這兩個公司能夠適當的補助或是協助當地的媒體，在其他國家好像都還需要再觀察，再加上最近因為關稅的問題而複雜化了，所以我覺得在這個時間點我們沒辦法確定哪一個是對臺灣最有利的。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是一年拖過一年，一天拖過一天，如果一直處於這種未定的狀態，一直覺得別人怎麼樣，然後我們可能就會怎麼樣，其實這個部分也真的會延遲我們議價的進程。"],["黃部長彥男：所以我們現在就是在過去這一、兩年……當然，這兩、三年Google那個共同基金的model，看有沒有辦法讓Google、甚至於Meta也能夠來用，讓這個model對臺灣媒體能有些幫助，是我們覺得可以再去溝通協調的部分，在立法之前啦。"],["郭委員昱晴：是。"],["黃部長彥男：在我們確定哪個法是有效的之後，我們當然會快速地去立法，但是在立法之前，也許Google共同基金的model是一個作法。另外一個可能的作法是，的確這整個因為技術的進步，我們各個產業都需要做數位轉型，所以怎麼樣幫媒體做數位轉型也是我們數發部現在在考慮的。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，今天我的時間有限，我們在面臨所謂跨國平臺的壓力下，怎麼樣先保護我們自己的新聞業者，跟我們自己的媒體平臺，這個才是真正的出發點。另外其他國家的model當然是拿來做一些參考，但不動的話，我們就不知道怎麼樣去應對。"],["黃部長彥男：了解，我們有積極的在做……"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們希望儘快，如果有新的進程再麻煩提供給我們辦公室，謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝郭昱晴委員。","現在請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案；\n六、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00002"}}},{"id":"160896","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160896","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc0b3addbdd828bbc3b2bf9a8039e28b7ca5144d4d67ecd09c1e2bac01cfa5d53fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"10:45:15 - 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那就接續剛才蔡警長委員提到的這個問題"},{"start":89.255,"end":112.688,"text":"事實上我們不能束手無策那剛剛部長也有提到就是說你們可以跟Meta去反應這些問題那我們來看就是Google Meta如果有類似這樣子一個共同基金那也許用這個基金就可以創造另外一個就是解決這些問題的人出來"},{"start":116.093,"end":136.497,"text":"所以我是這樣子建議啦 因為現在的網路新聞真的是真真假假假假真真啦很多有的是虛假的訊息 但是你會造成人民很大的困擾那現在是誰流量大 說話大聲 沒的沒吃的就靠他流量也亂講又不用負責任"},{"start":140.747,"end":166.48,"text":"所以就是說我們希望說就是以NCC跟我們的那個數學部的角度如何去杜絕類似這樣子一個虛假的言論那這個虛假言論如果一旦出現之後那數學部跟NCC有什麼作為就類似剛才部長提到可以跟META反映之外你覺得還有什麼方式"},{"start":168.14,"end":192.431,"text":"再就想說判斷真假當然這個是就是要由專業去判斷那判斷真假之後那個管道當然就是說我們跟Meta有一些平台管道可以直接跟他們溝通那當然剛剛主委有講到說那個可能有一些作用法一些法可以讓這個東西可以更有一個法制化這邊是不是請主委再說明一下"},{"start":193.437,"end":213.208,"text":"跟委員補充 如果是我們NCC所管的管理業者我們會要求他事實查證 而且會有相當的法律效果就是說如果他違反的話 這邊會有衛管法或管理法律相處理那至於說自媒體的網路那一塊 除了說我們現在用這個要求他們自立"},{"start":214.148,"end":235.701,"text":"時時刻刻提醒他們之外其實IAWIN本身雖然他是處理兒少為主但是如果一般的網路上的一些申訴通報他們他們一樣是跟這個Google或者Meta一樣有聯繫管道一樣可以協力來處理所以現在就是說這個我們NCC跟數化部都有一個單位可以受理"},{"start":237.628,"end":252.507,"text":"都沒問題嗎就是如果要下就確定這個新聞是假新聞或者是有危害的新聞我們是有管道去跟NCC是這速發部跟NCC有個單位我們直接跟誰反應"},{"start":253.666,"end":275.951,"text":"我們這邊是可以是個協力啦就是說透過iWIN這個窗口它雖然主要受惹哨但是非惹哨的議題的部分網路上的東西透過他們來受惹哨一樣可以透過他們去跟相關的那大型平台業者來反映他們本身會有一個自律規範跟社群守則他們會依據他們的處理我舉個簡單的例子啦就像詐騙就打165吧"},{"start":277.796,"end":298.733,"text":"那我如果遇到這個東西是速發部負責還是NCC負責那我要找誰因為部長講可以反應但是速發部單位這麼大我們要找誰是不是有個固定的窗口提供給民眾那民眾要來使用遇到這些假訊息可以及時反應是不是就會比較清楚"},{"start":299.273,"end":328.545,"text":"我們有一些那個我們請素材署跟委員報告我們有加入這個iWIN的組織所以我們這邊也可以來承接這個安置然後我們請iWIN來幫忙所以是跟蘇華部的蘇華部我們這邊有跟iWIN有窗口我知道你們有說民眾跟你們窗口要找誰我們這邊有那個進箱這片的第一道窗口就是165一般民都可以打"},{"start":329.921,"end":332.645,"text":"所以假訊息也算詐騙假訊息也打165嗎165會傳給你們嗎"},{"start":338.392,"end":361.255,"text":"我們這邊是沒有直接受理 但是我們有些同仁會受理但是比較多的還是過往都是I-WIN來受理比較為主對啦 所以你們研究一下看民眾如果找誰比較方便就直接你們把這個窗口訂出來嘛這樣子民眾要處理是不是就比較簡單沒有假訊息 就剛剛講說I-WIN是一個窗口 不過我們再看看OK 那媒體意見我想剛剛其昌"},{"start":363.376,"end":391.42,"text":"委員也提到澳洲跟加拿大這個其實是有困難沒有錯啦所以我們要定這個法 到底法則要到什麼程度 或者是要共融到什麼程度那以及就是說現在歐盟使用的這個著作權 臨階模式或者是說我們的強制溢價模式 那現在我們書畫部有沒有什麼想法 這大概會用哪個模式"},{"start":392.281,"end":420.763,"text":"就是剛剛就前面都有報告過就是說我們現在是沒有特定立場那持續還在研究跟關注現在國際發展所以我們也是希望儘快尤其在關稅這問題解決之後儘快瞭解這個世界各國採取的方式哪個方式有效我們就當然一定要儘快的處理所以現在只是說那個以目前來講我們沒有特定立場因為兩個模式都有一些缺失"},{"start":421.423,"end":446.093,"text":"那當然這個剛剛講共農基金是目前在台灣已經在進行的模式那我們會在這個裡面再繼續鼓勵讓共農基金的模式能夠繼續發展跟成長不過立法這個東西我們希望盡快但是在目前這個時間點需要再觀察OK 時間到了我們簡單結論就是說你要用強制溢價的立法這個優缺點在哪裡"},{"start":447.054,"end":462.645,"text":"那我們的駐州權連接模式這個歐盟採用的比較廣泛那速發部是不是有立場或想法那也希望說整理一下讓我知道一下那最後就是這個工農基金"},{"start":463.405,"end":481.445,"text":"共同基金我是覺得目前我們是三億嘛對不對三年三億一年一億有機會再更多當然我們盡量去爭取那爭取到了以後這些基金事實上就是不管是著作權的他應該要有的收費也好或者是說民眾反映的這個"},{"start":482.586,"end":499.257,"text":"假訊息處理我覺得這部分蘇發部跟NCC可以做一個規劃這個有錢可以用我們就把它用發揮它的效率嘛就杜絕減少這樣子一個假訊息的擴散跟蔓延那你們也可以盡快的跟Meta或者是相關的"},{"start":499.857,"end":513.503,"text":"部門請他們盡快的去下架等等的這些速度要如何加快讓人民很快就能夠跟你們反應那很快就能夠處理我想這個是最實際有效的希望說這個部分你們也規劃一下好不好 好 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請速發部黃部長好 速發部黃部長"},{"start":11.034,"end":37.159,"text":"部長早部長我想今天這個大家都很關心立法院很多委員都提出了不同的版本那面對這個特別是新聞產業的困境大家都很知道這個內容生產在於辛苦的媒體記者但在平台業者的使用上面卻沒有任何的這種回饋機制或者收費的這個機制"},{"start":39.557,"end":63.739,"text":"在討論這個問題之前本席也有很多的疑惑今天也藉這個機會來請教一下速發部這個最近在網路上也很紅也很多關心體育的體育迷關心新聞假訊息的傳播學者大家都在關注這個題目這個題目很簡單有一家體育的媒體叫Top5"},{"start":66.94,"end":87.818,"text":"它每一個標題因為流量至上現在的網路世界民眾的訊息五成來自網路新聞訊息五成來自網路那來自網路又加上流量是關鍵甚至流量可以轉變成收入所以大家就開始"},{"start":90.305,"end":111.23,"text":"把標題誇張化甚至誇張到變成假的譬如說我隨便舉個例這個媒體的平台他的標題都很聳動我隨便舉個例子這個確定了中職直升大聯盟第二人徐若曦進軍費城人謝謝你魏全榮徐若曦還在魏全榮投球"},{"start":112.503,"end":131.021,"text":"沒有費城仁這件事情那唯一有的是什麼費城仁的球探去看徐若曦投球所以就確定了他就要去費城仁這不是 如果是偶爾一次 那就是說他可能是失誤啦我隨便再講 幾乎啦 每隔幾天可能就會有"},{"start":133.29,"end":152.634,"text":"這個神尊家法官駕目擊表態美國WBC夢幻外野陣容確定然後卡載卡載就是有資格在美國大聯盟祥偉蛇隊有資格參加台灣隊的選手叫卡洛他說卡洛確定卡載正式歸隊台灣天啊"},{"start":155.95,"end":182.95,"text":"我作為WBC國家隊的領隊我正在規劃七月有沒有可能我親自去美國去邀請卡仔可不可以拜託他來參加我們的台灣隊我就不用去啦 他就已經確定了 這個就公然這樣這只有兩則嘛 那個下一頁 你看這些全部都是啦全部啦 我還沒全部列完耶 還很多咧"},{"start":184.242,"end":209.927,"text":"張玉成說為何中職人讓人看不起張玉成攤牌大檸檬伙食桃園你吃那個連叉都不吃張玉成根本沒講這個話啦他只有接受媒體訪問媒體問他說請問你以前在大檸檬吃什麼他就講他在大檸檬吃什麼他沒有講說那個樂天桃園對你的那個叉都不吃啊他完全沒有講這個這就是標題阿強請問部長"},{"start":212.796,"end":239.317,"text":"我也不知道啦齁這個是你管的還是誰管的報告委員這個齁這個很多訊息我們我們我們大概沒有辦法去管因為很多訊息真假要專業判斷齁包括剛委員講的這個這個我們不應該由蘇華部來沒關係那這個到底是在中華民國的政府架構底下這個到底是誰管誰該為這個事情有一個態度出來這個NCC這個來來來NCC來來來"},{"start":247.301,"end":273.908,"text":"委員好那我這邊補充跟委員報告關於網路新聞的部分我們大概有在處理網路新聞自律這一塊的因為它目前是沒有作用法說是用自律的方式處理我們在去年底有發布這個網路新聞自律原則然後今年會做一個更往前去邁進一步就是要類似做他們一個聯盟或者一個組織的方式來處理那個聯盟會組織我們今年會有一個案子大概320萬會去做一個類似"},{"start":276.589,"end":292.558,"text":"類似以前那個公共監督的角色比方說我會去做一些觀察評價之類的那我們也這是今年度要做的事情那過往"},{"start":293.158,"end":321.185,"text":"到現在我們除了找這個網路新聞國內的網路新聞業者包括我們廣播業者的延伸自己做的還有一些自媒體我們都有邀請他們來做座談會也請相關政府部門來表達他們的對他們的期待跟需求也希望他們維持做好一個自律特別是要做事實查證剛剛委員所舉的很多東西其實是沒有事實查證的但是因為回到剛剛一開始講的"},{"start":322.085,"end":347.474,"text":"目前沒有作用法所以只能用自律的方式來處理但是我們會用公開間公開的方式用他律他自律的部分加上他律就是一個第三方式來一起做協作以上好所以其實簡單講我聽你們兩個講完就是沒有任何人在管簡單講就是這樣子嘛我聽完你們兩個解釋完就是NCC跟蘇發部對於這種這麼明顯誇張的"},{"start":351.131,"end":377.819,"text":"我其實知道啦 我其實完全知道你們要講什麼啦因為所謂的假新聞在台灣這種高度對立的社會特別是政治高度對立的社會大家都負責 互相指稱對方那個是假新聞所以讓我們很難去產生一個上帝這個上帝來判斷誰是真誰是假但是我們應該設計一個機制透過一個公開透明的機制"},{"start":379.942,"end":400.405,"text":"來做一點基本處理那像這種我只要求啦像這種他也不是什麼藍綠綠他就明顯當事人都在嘛就當事人都在我其實我也很簡單很多人來問我這個聯盟的會長說要怎麼處理因為我們聯盟都是受害者"},{"start":401.893,"end":428.307,"text":"那對我們該怎麼處理就是我現在面對政府官員你們在這裡我問你們說當這些事實這些都是明確都是假的因為都有辦法把當事人找來我們在藍綠工坊的假新聞裡面因為雙方都指責對方這是不對的那但是這種明顯受害然後呢也可以查證那你覺得我們應該怎麼處理比較好"},{"start":429.454,"end":449.337,"text":"跟委員補充報告不管是有作用法的領域跟現在沒有作用法的這個傳播的網路新聞媒體這一塊其實都有第三方的協力具體而言就是第三方查核的比方說我現在的第三方我要怎麼處理讓不在在台灣的這個"},{"start":450.942,"end":467.631,"text":"體育的市場上不再出現這種明顯誇張為了賺流量造假的這個新聞怎麼處理跟委員報告那個委員講的這個方向也是我們抒發不一直想要努力的方向但是自從川普在次當選總統以後事情又有一些變化"},{"start":468.471,"end":490.625,"text":"第一個就是美國本來那個META他是委託第三方的事實查核機構來做事實查核但是川普總統上任以後就是施壓那個META現在META已經停止跟美國的事實查核機構共同合作另外一件事情是在今年2025年2月26號美國FCC發了一封公開信給美國所有的媒體巨頭"},{"start":491.765,"end":507.752,"text":"裡面就講說如果這些包含那個META還有X等等他如果在其他的國家受到其他的國家的政府的施壓要求他們做一些言論審查那而且是違反就是美國憲法第一條修正案的精神那美國憲法第一條的時候"},{"start":509.153,"end":532.807,"text":"他們就必須跟美國報告他們說這是這些公司他們的責任也是他們的義務他們的權利那美國憲法第一條修正案那是美國人的看法他們認為說政府不應該涉入這種事實的基本上就是不應該涉入那個媒體的管制所以這件事情對我們來講的確是一個我們很想做但是現在又有點擔心的事情以上報告 謝謝對對對 但是喔這樣的解釋其實我簡單講啊"},{"start":538.117,"end":567.138,"text":"言論自由該不該有它的約束就美國講這個意思就是說所以美國也沒有言論自由是無限的我鼓勵殺人如果這是體育啊OK沒有問題那個美國憲法第一條修正案依照他們那個大法官過去的判例就是鼓勵殺人的話這是不像所以它有限制嘛有限制啊那你覺得中華民國應不應該也有限制就是我現在告訴你大家都知道這是假的"},{"start":569.107,"end":587.394,"text":"然後中華民國的政府告訴我他們沒辦法處理我只是問這個啦我常常在這裡講詐騙我講了很多很多的案例告訴你我也知道你們在那裡但是你們不可以給我雙手一攤說這就是自律啦大家自律"},{"start":587.714,"end":604.356,"text":"不好意思再跟委員報告補充一下在以前羅振偉時代他有主持一些會議其實對假訊息的定義是要有惡、假、害這三個要素構成然後呢有構成這個之後然後是做部會來聯訪成假、易假、破假"},{"start":605.772,"end":625.798,"text":"視角齁 這個四個面向來做 目前大致上是在平衡這個言論自由跟這個惡假害之間來做處理我瞭解啦 我懂你的意思 但我只是現 我就我身為一個國會議員在這裡問你說 當我遇到這樣子我要怎麼處理 你們都一直跟我講原則你就跟我說我明天要去警察局報案嗎"},{"start":627.577,"end":642.83,"text":"我到底要怎麼處理嘛我一國會議員理事堂問你這個你都還沒辦法回答我你說一般的人遇到這問題他要怎麼處理我現在很簡單我不想跟你討論那些大道理啦我都知道我就告訴你言論自由我們不要選我們不想選一個上帝啦"},{"start":643.837,"end":653.561,"text":"但是問題是不能因為沒有上帝所以呢所以變成地獄嘛沒有這種事情嘛我現在就是在這裡問你說我回到這裡我也不知道要怎麼處理啊誰可以跟我說這款的假訊息不能這樣三五天就出現一次"},{"start":660.864,"end":687.876,"text":"對這個您如果把這個資料給我們我們可以跟META溝通我們可以有管道要求他們下架這沒問題對嘛你就是我要的就是你總是要讓台灣社會知道說就確定假訊息我們可以要求他們下架我們不想選上帝但我們不想台灣變地獄嘛這個我們可以處理就是把委員把資料給我們總是你要有一個方法不讓台灣變地獄嘛我們現在跟META有很好的溝通管道所以這個東西我們是有辦法去要求你們沒有版本我很了解啦這些法案你們沒有版本我很了解雖然我覺得"},{"start":688.716,"end":712.406,"text":"媒體的工作者很辛苦啦台灣的媒體產業再這樣搞下去媒體的環境是越來越艱困沒有人以後沒有人要生產內容嘛生產內容的人他都沒有任何得到任何回報我知道你們為什麼不敢沒有行政院的版本嘛因為很難啦澳洲的經驗加拿大的經驗都讓我們覺得沒那麼簡單啦"},{"start":714.912,"end":736.182,"text":"我都很清楚,但不可以這麼簡單,所以我們就放任整個台灣媒體也不要插名,讓他們都自生自滅這裡明顯,明顯我就跟你說這就是假的,不是偶爾出現就算了嘛,偶爾不小心犯錯,我們怎麼可以把人家這樣子這就接二連三一直出來,一直出來"},{"start":737.483,"end":753.214,"text":"在社會在體育圈也形成了一個很大的話題阿咱政府束手無策這話就沒辦法接受嘛部長你懂我的意思啦趕快處理啦我會後就把這資料給你嘛你們看該怎麼處理就趕快處理好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":457,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時32分）謝謝主席。請數發部黃部長。"],["主席：好，數發部黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長早。部長，我想今天大家都很關心，立法院很多委員也都提出了不同的版本，面對這個特別是新聞產業的困境，大家都很知道內容生產在於辛苦的媒體記者，但在平臺業者的使用上卻沒有任何的回饋機制或者收費機制。在討論這個問題之前，本席也有很多的疑惑，今天也藉這個機會來請教一下數發部，最近在網路上也很紅，很多關心體育的體育迷及關心新聞假訊息的傳播學者，大家都在關注這個題目。","這個題目很簡單，有一家體育的媒體叫Top5，它每一個標題因為流量至上，且現在的網路世界，民眾的新聞訊息五成來自網路，又加上流量是關鍵，甚至流量可以轉變成收入，所以大家就開始把標題誇張化，甚至誇張到變成假的。這個媒體平臺的標題都很聳動，比如我隨便舉個例子：「確定了！中職直升大聯盟第2人徐若熙進軍費城人，謝謝你味全龍」，徐若熙還在味全龍投球，沒有費城人這件事情，唯一有的是什麼？費城人的球探去看徐若熙投球，所以就確定了他要去費城人。如果是偶爾一次，它可能是失誤，但幾乎每隔幾天可能就會有，我隨便再講：「神鱒+法官+木屐表態美國隊WBC夢幻外野陣容確定」，然後提到「卡仔」，「卡仔」就是在美國大聯盟響尾蛇隊有資格參加臺灣隊的選手叫卡洛，標題寫「卡仔正式歸隊臺灣」。天啊！我做為WBC國家隊的領隊，我正在規劃7月有沒有可能我親自去美國邀請卡仔，拜託他來參加我們的臺灣隊，現在這樣我就不用去了，因為他都已經確定了嘛！這個就公然這樣寫，你看這些全部都是，而且我還沒有全部列完，還有很多咧！「張育成說：為何中職人讓人看不起？」、「張育成攤牌大聯盟伙食，桃猿你那個×都不吃。」其實張育成根本沒講這個話，他只有接受媒體訪問，媒體問他說：請問你以前在大聯盟吃什麼？然後他就講他在大聯盟吃什麼，他並沒有說樂天桃猿你那個×都不吃啊！他完全沒有講這個，但這卻是標題啊！我想請問部長，這是你管的還是誰管的？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，很多訊息我們大概沒有辦法去管制，因為很多訊息的真假要專業判斷，包括剛剛委員講的這一個，這不應該由數發部來……"],["蔡委員其昌：沒關係，我只是想知道在中華民國的政府架構底下，這個到底是誰管？誰該為這件事情有一個態度出來？"],["黃部長彥男：NCC……"],["蔡委員其昌：來，請NCC說明。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好，我跟委員補充報告，關於網路新聞的部分，我們有在處理網路新聞自律這一塊，因為它目前並沒有作用法，所以是用自律的方式處理，我們在去年底有發布網路新聞自律原則，然後今年會更往前邁進一步，就是要以一個類似聯盟或者組織的方式來處理。針對那個聯盟或者組織，我們今年會有一個案子，大概會用320萬去做一個類似公共監督的角色，比方我們會去做一些觀察、評價之類的，這是我們今年度要做的事情。從過往到現在，我們除了找國內的網路新聞業者，包括廣電業者延伸自己做的，還有一些自媒體，我們都有要求他們來參加座談會，也請相關政府部門表達對他們的期待及需求，希望他們能做好自律，特別是要做事實查證。剛剛委員所舉的很多東西其實是沒有事實查證的，但回到剛剛一開始講的，因為目前沒有作用法，所以只能用自律的方式來處理，但是我們會用公開的方式以自律加上他律，也就是以第三方的方式來一起協作，以上。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，我聽你們兩個講完就是沒有任何人在管，簡單講就是這樣子，我聽你們兩個解釋完，就是NCC和數發部對於這種這麼明顯誇張的……其實我完全知道你們要講什麼，因為所謂的假新聞在臺灣這種高度對立的社會，特別是政治高度對立的社會，大家都互相指稱對方那個是假新聞，所以我們很難去產生一個上帝，由這個上帝來判斷誰是真、誰是假，但是我們應該設計一個機制，透過一個公開透明的機制來做一點基本處理，我只要求這樣，像這種也不是什麼藍綠對立，它很明顯當事人都在嘛！其實很多人來問我，像這個聯盟的會長說這要怎麼處理，因為我們的聯盟都是受害者嘛！究竟我們該怎麼處理？現在政府官員在這裡，我問你們說這些很明確都是假的，因為都有辦法把當事人找來，在藍綠攻防的假新聞裡面，因為雙方都指責對方是不對的，但是這種明顯受害而且也可以查證，你覺得我們應該怎麼處理比較好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員補充報告，不管是有作用法的領域或是現在沒有作用法的網路新聞媒體這一塊，其實都有第三方的協力，具體而言就是第三方的查核，比方事實查核……"],["蔡委員其昌：我的問題是現在的第三方要怎麼處理，讓臺灣的體育市場上不再出現這種明顯誇張、為了賺流量而造假的新聞？這怎麼處理？"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，委員講的方向也是數發部一直想要努力的方向，但是自從川普再次當選總統以後，事情又有一些變化，第一個是美國Meta本來是委託第三方事實查核機構來做事實查核，但是川普總統上任以後開始施壓Meta，現在Meta已經停止跟美國的事實查核機構共同合作。另外一件事情是在今年（2025年）2月26號美國FCC發了一封公開信給美國所有的媒體巨頭，裡面提到包含Meta和X等等如果受到其他國家的政府施壓，要求他們做一些言論審查，而且違反美國憲法第一條修正案精神的時候，他們就必須跟美國報告，這是這些公司的責任，也是他們的權利。關於美國憲法第一條修正案，那是美國人的看法，他們認為政府基本上不應該涉入媒體的管制，所以這件事情對我們來講的確是一個我們很想做，但是現在又有點擔心的事情，以上報告。"],["蔡委員其昌：謝謝，但是對於這樣的解釋……簡單來講，言論自由該不該有它的約束？美國講這個的意思就是說美國也沒有言論自由是無限的，例如鼓勵殺人……如果這是體育，OK沒有問題……"],["林次長宜敬：以美國憲法第一條修正案而言，依照他們大法官過去的判例，如果鼓勵殺人的話，這是……"],["蔡委員其昌：所以它有限制嘛！"],["林次長宜敬：有限制，但是……"],["蔡委員其昌：那你覺得中華民國應不應該也有限制？就是說我現在告訴你大家都知道這是假的，然後中華民國的政府告訴我沒有辦法處理，我只是問這個啦，我常常在這裡講詐騙，我告訴你們很多很多的案例，我也知道你們在關注，但是你們不可以給我雙手一攤說這就是大家自律啦！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不好意思，再跟委員補充報告一下，在以前羅政委時代他有主持一些會議，其實對假訊息的定義要有惡、假、害這三個要素構成，然後由部會來聯防，從識假、破假、抑假、懲假四個面向來做，目前大致上是以平衡言論自由及惡假害的方向來處理。"],["蔡委員其昌：我了解啦，我懂你的意思，我身為一個國會議員在這裡問你說，當我遇到這樣子的狀況要怎麼處理，你們都一直跟我講原則，其實你就直接告訴我，我明天要去警察局報案嗎？我到底要怎麼處理嘛！我一個國會議員在議事堂問你這個問題，你都沒辦法回答我，你說一般的人遇到這個問題他要怎麼處理？我現在只是很簡單的問你，我不跟你討論那些大道理，那些道理我都知道，我就告訴你，關於言論自由，我們不想選一個上帝，但問題是不能因為沒有上帝，所以就變成地獄，沒有這種事情嘛！我現在就是在這裡問你，遇到這種狀況我也不知道該怎麼處理啊！到底誰可以解決這種假訊息？總不能像這樣三、五天就出現一次，就是這樣而已。"],["黃部長彥男：委員，您如果把資料給我們，我們可以跟Meta溝通，我們有管道可以要求他們下架，這沒問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：對嘛，你總是要讓臺灣社會知道……"],["黃部長彥男：這種確定的假訊息，我們可以要求它下架。"],["蔡委員其昌：我們不想選上帝，但我們不想臺灣變地獄嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：這個我們可以處理，麻煩委員把資料給我們。"],["蔡委員其昌：總是要有一個方法不讓臺灣變地獄嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：我們現在跟Meta有很好的溝通管道，所以這個東西我們有辦法要求他們下架。"],["蔡委員其昌：針對這些法案你們沒有版本我很了解，雖然我覺得媒體工作者很辛苦，但臺灣的媒體產業再這樣搞下去，媒體的環境會越來越艱困，以後沒有人要生產內容嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：生產內容的人都沒有得到任何回報，我知道你們為什麼沒有行政院的版本，因為很難啦！澳洲的經驗、加拿大的經驗都讓我們覺得沒那麼簡單，這些我都很清楚，但不能因為沒那麼簡單，所以我們就放任全臺灣的媒體都不理他們，讓他們自生自滅。我已經跟你說這很明顯是假的，如果它是偶爾出現，那我們就算了，因為它偶爾不不小心犯錯，我們怎麼可以把人家……但這是接二連三一直出現，在社會及體育圈也形成一個很大的話題，結果我們的政府束手無策，這樣我就沒辦法接受。部長，相信你懂我的意思，趕快處理啦！"],["黃部長彥男：好，我們會……"],["蔡委員其昌：我會後就把這些資料給你，你們看該怎麼處理就趕快處理好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌副院長。等一下許智傑委員質詢完畢後，我們要休息10分鐘。","現在請許智傑召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪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人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案；\n六、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00002"}}},{"id":"160894","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160894","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc0fc14a2bfe17980622bf9a8039e28b7ca5144d4d67ecd09c18ef0204c35ffc9fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:23:42 - 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對不對那你當地的媒體也拿不到錢"},{"start":156.038,"end":176.616,"text":"第二個他透過美國政府把他做為數位的貿易壁壘來做談判等等那如果這種狀態下其實如果我們要推這個在川普跟這些平台巨頭的關係好不好"},{"start":180.268,"end":206.954,"text":"應該是都有一些很好的合作關係有合作關係嗎?川普以前每天痛罵臉書啊川普當選以後但現在是臉書在修補跟他的關係啦你了解嗎?所以川普他自己去創造一個自媒體的平台嘛他認為臉書專門在修理他啊川普認為這些平台巨頭啊都是民主黨的,都是左派的其實這個在談判上啊"},{"start":208.12,"end":237.338,"text":"不是不能講道理啦我也不知道有沒有在這個談判桌上但是美國國內同樣也會有這個問題啦美國國內的媒體他們的新聞製造製造者那他們上的臉書他們有沒有拿到錢也沒有嘛因為美國也沒有強制移交法所以這個絕對是平台跟全世界的新聞媒體業界大家的一個共同的議題"},{"start":239.017,"end":267.239,"text":"這個其實也可以結合啦做國際上一個結合啦因為這幾個平台獨大嘛那有在做這個媒體也是做經過媒體的其實美國國內也有啊對不對媒體的生存困境美國也一樣啊全世界都一樣啊你看那個數位廣告現在已經超過一般傳統的廣告了嘛數位廣告過去幾年啊我這裡的資料啊"},{"start":268.51,"end":295.062,"text":"成長了三倍多成長了百分之三百四十六你看那個非數位廣告衰退一半我講的是十年來十年來數位廣告成長百分之三百四十六非數位廣告反而衰退快一半所以這是一個大家共同問題但我認為今天要討論的其實不只是政媒體定價法因為你現在有卡到跟美國關稅談判的問題"},{"start":297.352,"end":319.737,"text":"不過確實我們塑化部必須要有一定的角色來管理這些平台因為這些平台成為詐騙 假訊息的溫床詐騙廣告都在這些平台上面嘛對不對所以你看澳洲政府他對臉書就是說你臉書"},{"start":322.369,"end":339.45,"text":"Meta現在拒絕澳洲的定價法以後澳洲提出的措施就是他要準備成立一個數位事務部腳步比台灣慢台灣現在就有數位發展部了"},{"start":340.629,"end":359.178,"text":"那我們應該要有一定的 這種一定角色可以管理這些平台我現在講的不是只有新聞定價而已啦例如你在那邊一些假錯訊息啦 有一些色情啦 詐騙啦 等等這些平台啊 只認錢啊 只收廣告費啊 他有負起他的社會責任嗎"},{"start":360.509,"end":387.006,"text":"但你現在有法可以管他嗎你現在只能道德勸說這些平台如果是詐騙的話就是我們有打詐這個專法嘛就是用這個來管制他他們也都配合啦那現在詐騙廣告還是那麼多對所以我們如果不管是民眾檢舉或是我們發現我們會要求他下架目前的法律規定是他在24小時之內要下架所以你像今年那個新聞有沒有今年4月啊"},{"start":388.049,"end":412.13,"text":"Meta的副總裁啊臉書的副總監啊總監啊他在美國舉手發誓作證啊他說Meta在中國他配合中國政府介入啊審查台港的發文審查幫中國政府審查甚至還針對這中國本身香港台灣用戶發的文字進行修改這臉書的前總監他的國會作證的"},{"start":416.033,"end":419.798,"text":"國會聽證是有法律責任的他不能說謊的那證實臉書是這樣的來配合一個獨裁政府"},{"start":423.666,"end":448.014,"text":"那臉書在台灣會不會幹同樣的事情我們不知道啊但是你有角色你有法律的那種定位給你的角色你可以去介入嗎你可以去管理嗎我們對這問題也蠻關注所以我們除了關注美國現在共聽會的結果我們在台灣也會跟臉書在這方面再做進一步的了解跟溝通所以我覺得"},{"start":448.894,"end":473.387,"text":"你確實應該要提出塑化部的院版的法律啦那不是只專注在今天講的這個新聞定價法因為這個是一個世界性的問題啦但是你塑化部澳洲現在才緊急要成立塑化部台灣已經有了但我們過去塑化部的功能一直受到大家很大的批評嘛對不對那主要就是對於這些網路上的管理尤其這些平台巨頭的管理嘛"},{"start":474.468,"end":498.524,"text":"那你現在沒有法律坦白講 你只能借助其他單位的法律就像剛剛你講的 防詐的法律或者是你跟他們 老是邀來喝咖啡愛吵鬧不吵別 對不對你只能給他用勸說的方式所以你還是要訂出我們自己國家對於網路上 政府該有的一個你們要負起你們的責任還有你們的權責 好不好好 謝謝部長好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":424,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時23分）謝謝主席。本席邀請我們數發部黃部長。"],["主席：黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長好。部長，大家都在關心今天的主題也就是媒體議價法，我看數發部自己本身的報告裡面，當然部長有特別提到國際上，尤其是美國，美國對於澳洲跟加拿大的媒體議價法，他認為這是一個貿易障礙，他認為這樣的一種課稅，如果課稅，美國甚至不排除用關稅報復，是不是這樣？你們報告裡面有這樣寫。"],["黃部長彥男：對，目前我們的觀察是這樣。"],["林委員俊憲：好，以目前的這種狀態，剛好臺灣在跟美國做關稅談判的時候，如果臺灣通過這樣的一個媒體議價法，對於我們跟美國的關稅談判會不會造成什麼樣的影響？"],["黃部長彥男：一樣，因為現在在談判中，這是一個無可預測的因素，所以我覺得……"],["林委員俊憲：那你認為臺灣在現在這個時候適合來推媒體議價法嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我個人認為這個時候不是一個good timing，不是一個好的時間點。"],["林委員俊憲：不是一個好的時機嘛！其實在澳洲的經驗，澳洲是2021年全世界第一個通過媒體議價法，Google和臉書在2024年就停止支付了，他們不顧澳洲當地的法律，回去透過美國政府就跟澳洲政府來談判施壓，所以目前這個問題已經變成一個不是只有臺灣現在面對的問題，而是全世界都面對的問題，如果以目前我們跟美國在做關稅談判的時候，部長也認為這個時候通過這樣一個法律，恐怕會影響到我們跟美國的談判，會造成一個負面影響，是不是這樣？"],["黃部長彥男：是，沒錯。"],["林委員俊憲：其實這幾個平臺巨頭在國際上也有辦法，他會反擊這樣一個媒體定價法，比如在澳洲、加拿大他有一個模式，他就封鎖當地的新聞內容，你當地的媒體也拿不到錢。第二個，他透過美國政府將其作為數位貿易壁壘來做談判等等。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["林委員俊憲：好，在這種狀態下，其實如果我們要推這個，川普跟這些平臺巨頭的關係好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：對，應該是都有一些很好的合作關係。"],["林委員俊憲：有合作關係嗎？川普以前每天痛罵臉書，川普當選以後，但現在是臉書在修補跟他的關係啦。"],["黃部長彥男：沒錯。"],["林委員俊憲：你了解嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["林委員俊憲：川普自己去創造一個自媒體的平臺，他認為臉書專門在修理他，川普認為這些平臺巨頭都是民主黨的、都是左派，其實在談判上不是不能講道理，我也不知道有沒有在這個談判桌上，但是美國國內同樣也會有這個問題，美國國內的媒體，他們的新聞製造者上臉書有沒有拿到錢？也沒有嘛！因為美國也沒有強制議價法，所以這個絕對是平臺跟全世界的新聞媒體業界大家一個共同的議題，其實也可以做國際上的一個結合。因為這幾個平臺獨大，有在做新聞媒體的，其實美國國內也有，對不對？媒體的生存困境，美國也一樣，全世界都一樣。你看數位廣告現在已經超過一般傳統的廣告了，我這裡的資料顯示數位廣告在過去幾年成長了三倍多，成長了346%，你看，非數位廣告衰退一半，我講的是十年來數位廣告成長346%，非數位廣告反而衰退快一半，所以這是一個大家共同的問題。","但我認為今天要討論的其實不只是這種媒體議價法，因為你現在有卡到跟美國關稅談判的問題，不過確實數發部必須要有一定的角色來管理這些平臺，因為這些平臺成為詐騙、假訊息的溫床，詐騙廣告都在這些平臺上面，對不對？所以你看澳洲政府對於Meta、臉書現在拒絕澳洲的議價法以後，澳洲提出的措施就是它要準備成立一個數位事務部，它的腳步比臺灣慢，臺灣現在就有數位發展部了，我們政府應該要有一定的角色可以管理這些平臺，我現在講的不是只有新聞議價而已，例如在這邊一直有錯假訊息、有一些色情、詐騙等等，這些平臺只認錢，只收廣告費，它有負起它的社會責任嗎？你現在有法可以管它嘛？你現在只能道德勸說這些平臺。"],["黃部長彥男：如果是詐騙的話，我們有打詐專法，用這個來管制它，他們也都配合啦，就是說……"],["林委員俊憲：有配合，但現在詐騙廣告還是那麼多？"],["黃部長彥男：對，所以不管是民眾檢舉或是我們發現，我們會要求它下架，目前的法律規定是要在24小時之內下架。"],["林委員俊憲：尤其像今年4月的新聞，Meta臉書前總監在美國舉手發誓作證，他說Meta在中國配合中國政府介入審查臺港的發文。審查喔！幫中國政府審查，甚至還針對中國本身、香港、臺灣用戶發的文字進行修改，這是臉書前總監在國會作證的，國會聽證是有法律責任的，所以他不能說謊，證實臉書是這樣來配合一個獨裁政府，臉書在臺灣會不會幹同樣的事情？我們不知道啊！但是你有法律定位給你的角色，你可以去介入嗎？你可以去管理嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們對這個問題也蠻關注，所以除了關注美國現在聽證會的結果，我們也會跟臺灣的臉書在這方面再做進一步了解跟溝通。"],["林委員俊憲：所以我覺得你確實應該要提出數發部院版的法律，不是只專注在今天講的新聞議價法，因為這是一個世界性的問題，但是澳洲現在才緊急要成立數發部，臺灣已經有了，但過去我們數發部的功能一直受到大家很大的批評，主要就是對於這些網路上的管理，尤其這些平臺巨頭的管理，你現在沒有法律，坦白講，你只能借助其他單位的法律，就像你剛剛講的防詐的法律，或者你老是邀他們來喝咖啡，他們要理不理的，對不對？你只能用勸說的方式，所以還是要訂出我們自己國家對於網路上政府該有的、你們要負起的責任及權責，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝部長。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林俊憲委員。","現在請蔡其昌副院長質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 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剛剛講AI的侵權還有AI的部分這個問題比"},{"start":542.024,"end":566.265,"text":"委員所講兩年前又複雜很多我也要提一下速發部跟委員之間的溝通真的是太少了有一段時間好像停滯了直到這個召委要排這個部分是不是能夠更積極啊因為台灣媒體的困境已經很久了那你們現在就是Google分三年給的3億元的40個補助計畫是不是也能夠在你們同步"},{"start":567.546,"end":594.563,"text":"提出你們的版本的過程中也納入包含記者公會的聲音小型媒體 獨立媒體 獨立媒體的聲音還有就是說能不能夠評估那台灣媒體有沒有可能有一個共同的分潤平台如果就是說川普這個之後我們覺得有些制度比較高難度的話那我覺得速發部就是要出來解決這個問題因為為什麼我們要有速發部就是文化部 NCC 等等沒有辦法單獨處理這個問題好嗎"},{"start":596.964,"end":605.091,"text":"因為數位平台這個應該是你們就是說首先能夠面對的好嗎好 謝謝委員那多久之內可以給我一個報告"},{"start":609.568,"end":626.015,"text":"一個月之內一個月之內那到底你們這個版本的時程各方面那我是主張要有你們的版本我們再能夠進入逐條審議負責就是說立法委員個別的智慧都有限那我們擔心當然不希望傷害到台灣的媒體跟我們的民主好嗎好 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有請書發部黃部長好 書發部黃部長"},{"start":12.098,"end":39.27,"text":"部長好 大家都很關心如何來提升媒體的收入那今天我們也看到交通跟教文聯席排了這個新聞媒體與數位平台溢價的專報那我這樣子說 如果我們去看目前國際所做的大概有幾種模式像著作臨接權 強制溢價"},{"start":40.49,"end":63.322,"text":"或者平台課稅那如果我國要立法部長您傾向哪一種模式報告委員那個我們沒有特定立場但是就是跟大院來商量不過這邊因為我們現在看到因為過去我剛有強調因為過去這兩年一方面是技術的演變一方面是這個所謂的國際形勢的演變變成每一個法都產生一些問題"},{"start":64.463,"end":79.949,"text":"那我們看到幾個像強制溢價權就是主要是澳洲跟加拿大那目前因為這個目前看起來是不成功的至少有些報導是這樣那歐盟這個也有遇到一些問題就是他們的著作權著作臨接權"},{"start":80.729,"end":108.471,"text":"那共榮基金就是這是一個在台灣目前有在進行的所以我覺得就是說但一個是我們在立法上我們還需要一起觀察就是說現在只想說在這個時間點可能需要再做進一步研究我們擔心的是說太草率立法會造成不是幫助是造成傷害所以我覺得這個可以再稍微等一下但是呢我們同時繼續進行這方面的研究尤其是對於強制溢價主要是看澳洲後續"},{"start":109.372,"end":125.527,"text":"主要還是一樣除了Google跟Meta這兩家公司在這邊他下一步會怎麼做目前這兩家公司Meta是完全不配合那Google是不是會再進行下一步跟澳洲有些合作我們也還在觀察中所以我想如果在這個時間點"},{"start":127.048,"end":153.189,"text":"加上國際情勢非常不清楚的情況之下未來當然我們希望盡快把這個問題能夠確定然後我們當然要趕快立法來解決這個讓所謂的新聞油價能夠落實不過在這個時間點的確這三個問題三個法都有問題所以就說草率的立法不見得是對新聞媒體是有幫助"},{"start":153.909,"end":179.232,"text":"好 謝謝部長第一個您就是肯定新聞有價第二個呢 您也希望禁訴立法那第三個呢 目前要採用哪一種模式我想你目前也講不出來嘛但是我從數位發展部今天的專報我有看到您剛才在其他委員質詢過程中 您也有提到像以澳洲來講"},{"start":181.072,"end":194.032,"text":"Google或Meta他們呢原本是主動的跟幾十家的媒體達成協議也預計要每一年提供2億澳幣也就是大約台幣40億的資金可是"},{"start":196.716,"end":214.571,"text":"他Meta你講到Meta比較強硬他在2024年3月就改變政策宣布不再與新聞出版商續約未來呢也不想要再展開這樣的商業合作模式那加拿大呢他也是在前年2023通過線上新聞法"},{"start":218.194,"end":245.603,"text":"可是他也願意2024年起每年捐贈1億加幣大約台幣23億可是他也是相對的這個Meta為了規避強制溢價您剛剛一直提到的強制溢價選擇全面封鎖新聞的內容導致新聞媒體的網路流量反而明顯的下降對那些中小型的媒體衝擊最為嚴重所以呢英國經濟學人就說啦"},{"start":246.283,"end":254.035,"text":"就是我們原本想要透過立法輔助新聞產業結果反而造成傷害因你看到底是哪裡做錯了"},{"start":256.308,"end":277.761,"text":"主要還是在於說因為我們主要針對剛剛講就是Google跟Meta這兩個公司嘛那以Meta來講它其實很簡單它就是我的流量裡面屬於新聞的流量只有不到3%我當然就因為這樣關係所以他們就比較沒有那個意願來配合所以我想主要還是回到市場面也就是說自我這個東西它"},{"start":278.681,"end":307.006,"text":"他來做這個事情會增加他的營收或增加的流量他就會考慮所以還是回到市場的基本面就是這個東西到底意思就是其實回到市場來看沒有那麼理想市場的話就是說這兩個公司來配合還是要回到市場那當然就是說我們當然是希望我們能夠經過立法讓他們願意來配合那同時也幫助共榮的意思就是說同時幫助這個平台公司跟請教部長"},{"start":308.166,"end":325.233,"text":"那我們目前國內的平台像Google Meta他們對於我們要立這個法他們的立場是怎麼樣他們的立場基本上都有表示反對啦那細節是不是那個因為很多談判是我們次長去談的來次長"},{"start":327.504,"end":353.289,"text":"是 目前Google跟Meta都表達反對的立場我們都有詢問過他們 他們也經過美國商會沒關係 我就是要聽而已 就知道他們的立場因為現在 全世界有一種風險 叫做川普風險那我不曉得說 當川普上任之後他們也發表十項不公平數位貿易慣例"},{"start":355.089,"end":378.305,"text":"那指稱剛才提到的澳洲也好加拿大也好那些在內的媒體溢價立法已經損害到美國經濟的利益那我不曉得說當美國政府認為對他們的Google Meta結果別的國家呢造成他們的潛在的成本會增加那麼多那我請教一下"},{"start":379.346,"end":401.977,"text":"我們有沒有評估過如果立這樣的法會不會引發美國報復性關稅措施我個人的判斷是很有可能因為他已經對澳洲加拿大有提出這樣的一個要求所以我想任何一個新的要求新的這樣的立法出現美國政府一定會採取相同的態度來對待所以你們評估可能是會的"},{"start":403.098,"end":417.937,"text":"好 但是重點我們還是要提升媒體收入啊新聞有價那食物上我想很多問題像包括如何分潤是用流量分 使用量還是要設定集聚還是有其他更好的方法"},{"start":418.658,"end":446.18,"text":"那當平台跟媒體談判的時候這種包裹的談判到底是要一季分一年分那對媒體到底有沒有利那到底是對大型媒體有利那對獨立媒體有沒有利還是大型媒體根本不屑因為他的分潤金佔營業的收入根本就不高那甚至是那些獨立媒體他的流量本來就不高那他的分潤呢他算起來也根本沒有什麼"},{"start":447.34,"end":472.715,"text":"那到底我這樣子講的意思說有沒有評估如果法案通過之後對於這種不同規模的媒體大型小型不同性質的媒體 紙本啊 電子啊 獨立啊 Daily新聞深度影音有沒有去做這些細微不同程度的影響的分析有沒有去針對這些不同類型的規模的這些媒體有沒有問過他們對這個法案的意願 有沒有"},{"start":477.794,"end":499.43,"text":"跟委員報告我們在過去這一年的期間我們不斷的跟媒體還有跟各方那他們的看法怎麼樣對那現在其實最大的問題就是流量那以這個META來講的話這是去年11月我到META去拜訪那個加拿大政府的時候他們秀給我看了一個截圖就是META因為在加拿大通過那個媒體議價法以後呢"},{"start":499.83,"end":527.697,"text":"他就在上面把所有新聞連結通通block掉了所以我在加拿大我嘗試連線CNN或者是連線那個加拿大當地的媒體上面都會顯示說在加拿大你不能看到這些任何的新聞媒體所以META的回應方式就是讓說根本就沒有流量所以我們要用流量來分潤的話這個已經是不可行的這是他一個商業行為他就選擇他退出他就不再提供任何的那個媒體"},{"start":530.279,"end":544.777,"text":"因為主席站起來我其實只是說大家都很關心但是我們也很想知道到底各個媒體他們的想法是什麼甚至是到底有沒有對新聞媒體去做定義了"},{"start":546.078,"end":562.866,"text":"像有的像端傳媒它只是新加坡註冊在台灣的分公司那像報導者它是基金會成立的新聞機構那又或者像一些自媒體又或者是公管集團其實對於定義這件事誰能夠被納入誰能夠談判 誰能夠分潤"},{"start":566.368,"end":592.579,"text":"像我們談的這些都是過去我們看到平台無償使用新聞那剛才部長您有提到現在的變化就是因為AI也是無償使用新聞那到底他甚至有一些媒體去檢視之後發現checkGPT的流量還最高高於平均那他大量使用媒體的資料來擴充他自己的資料庫那沒有獲得授權甚至付費"},{"start":593.919,"end":618.868,"text":"那納入法規要怎麼研議或者人工智慧法那邊要怎麼處理所以我想你們也沒有版本但是又一直說支持新聞有價想要提升媒體的收入到底有沒有辦過公聽會我們全部都不得而知那我想今天排這個專報就是希望我們要審慎的評估討論那希望把這件事情做好"},{"start":620.309,"end":640.146,"text":"謝謝委員建議我們會持續會開公聽會嗎我們會持續跟媒體溝通會公聽會公聽會或是以訪談或是各樣的會議形式我們會進行各種會議形式不要公聽會公聽會也是公聽會就是立法院公聽會嗎這個我們或者各地的分區座談都可以分區座談我們會繼續好繼續努力謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":329,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（9時53分）謝謝主席，有請數發部黃部長。"],["主席：請數發部黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：好，沒關係，我就是要知道他們的立場而已。現在全世界有一種風險叫做「川普風險」，當川普上任之後，美國政府也發表十項不公平數位貿易慣例，指稱剛才提到的澳洲、加拿大等在內的媒體議價立法已經損害到美國的經濟利益。我不曉得當美國政府認為，別的國家對他們的Google、Meta等數位平臺的立法結果，造成他們的潛在的成本會增加那麼多，我請教一下，我們有沒有評估過，如果立這樣的法，會不會引發美國的報復性關稅措施？"],["黃部長彥男：我個人的判斷是很有可能，因為美國政府已經對澳洲跟加拿大提出要求，所以我想任何一個新的、這一類的立法出現，美國政府一定會採取相同的態度來對待。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以你們評估可能是會？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，但是重點我們還是要提升媒體的收入，畢竟新聞有價，實務上我想很多問題，包括如何分潤，是用流量（使用量）分潤還是要設定級距還是有其他更好的方法？當平臺跟媒體談判的時候，這種包裹式的談判到底是要一季分、一年分，對媒體到底有沒有利？到底是對大型媒體有利，那對獨立媒體有沒有利？還是大型媒體根本不屑？因為他的分潤金占營業的收入根本就不高，甚至是那些獨立媒體，他的流量本來就不高，他的分潤算起來也根本沒有什麼。我這樣子講的意思是，你們到底有沒有評估，如果法案通過之後，對於大型、小型不同規模的媒體，或是不同性質的媒體，比如紙本、電子、獨立、daily新聞、深度影音等等，有沒有去做這些細微不同程度的影響的分析，有沒有去針對不同類型、規模的媒體，有沒有問過他們對這個法案的意願，有沒有？"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，我們在過去這一年期間不斷地跟媒體還有跟各方溝通……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那他們的看法怎麼樣？"],["林次長宜敬：其實現在最大的問題就是流量，以Meta來講，去年11月我去拜訪加拿大政府的時候，他們秀給我看的一個截圖，就是在加拿大通過媒體議價法以後，Meta就在平臺上把所有新聞連結通通block掉了。我在加拿大嘗試連線CNN或是連線加拿大當地的媒體，平臺上面都會顯示，在加拿大你不能看到任何的新聞媒體，Meta的回應方式就是讓所有的新聞媒體根本就沒有流量，所以我們要用流量來分潤的話已經是不可行的。這是他的商業行為，他就是選擇退出，他就不再提供任何新聞媒體的連結，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，因為主席站起來了。我只是說大家都很關心，但是我們也很想知道，到底各個媒體他們的想法是什麼，甚至是到底有沒有對新聞媒體去做定義了？有的像端傳媒，他只是新加坡註冊在臺灣的分公司；像報導者，他是基金會成立的新聞機構；又或者像一些自媒體；又或者是公廣集團，對於定義何謂媒體這件事，誰能夠被納入，誰能夠談判，誰能夠分潤，像我們談的這些都是過去我們看到平臺無償使用新聞，剛才部長你也有提到，現在的變化就是因為AI也是無償取用新聞，甚至有一些媒體去檢視之後發現，ChatGPT的流量還是最高高於平均，他大量使用媒體的資料來擴充他自己的資料庫卻沒有獲得授權甚至付費，那要怎麼研議納入法規？或者人工智慧法那邊要怎麼處理？我想你們也沒有版本，但是又一直說支持新聞有價，想要提升媒體的收入，到底有沒有辦過公聽會，我們全部都不得而知，我想今天排這個專報就是希望我們要審慎的評估、討論，希望把這件事情做好。部長，如何？"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員的建議，我們會持續……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：會開公聽會嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對，我們會持續跟媒體溝通，會。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：公聽會？"],["黃部長彥男：公聽會或是以訪談或是各樣的會議形式，我們會進行。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：各種會議形式，不要公聽會？"],["黃部長彥男：公聽會？就是立法院的公聽會嗎？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：嗯。"],["黃部長彥男：這個我們再看……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：或者各地的分區座談都可以啊。"],["黃部長彥男：分區座談我們會繼續。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，OK，繼續努力。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。","現在請葛如鈞召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案；\n六、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00002"}}},{"id":"160891","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160891","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc0e38257168457de3b2bf9a8039e28b7ca5144d4d67ecd09c1462de921938ebd285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"09:40:25 - 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有請黃部長 蘇發部黃部長蘇發部我們黃部長"},{"start":9.984,"end":29.261,"text":"黃部長好我想健全的新聞報導環境有助於民主社會的發展這是之前速發部召集大型跨境數位平台與新聞業對話會議中那數位平台跟新聞媒體業者都認為的具體共識"},{"start":30.262,"end":45.36,"text":"那我想健全的新聞報導媒體要怎麼塑造那本席認為最重要的就是要保障新聞的自由跟基層的媒體從業人員的權益那本席上一屆跟這一屆我們都有提出喔"},{"start":45.64,"end":63.55,"text":"就是所謂的數位新聞發展與民主任性法草案那這個草案我們期盼透過新聞有價的這個基本價值來提振台灣的這個媒體環境那本席之前有提過新聞媒體面對的三大困境第一個"},{"start":64.711,"end":90.599,"text":"新聞依賴這個網路平台導引流量而網路的流量又受到大型的跨國數位平台的載制第二個困境是新聞產製的方式受到跨國平台的制約所以它報導的內容 標題會受到演算法被牽著鼻子走導致有很多大家所詬病的內容農場啊 調標這種亂象"},{"start":93.86,"end":114.976,"text":"那第三演算法也被大型的跨國平台掌握所以這個演算法到底是如何的運作我們也無從得知可是它已經造成媒體產製內容的矛盾那我想世界各國大概也有都面臨到這樣的困境那台灣在這樣的困境底下受到威脅我想是更加的危急"},{"start":116.451,"end":134.957,"text":"前META全球公共政策總監他前陣子就有公開指控說META跟中國政府的密切聯繫有內容審查相關制度而台港的用戶的熱門內容就是受到審查的一部分那有內容審查"},{"start":138.668,"end":165.468,"text":"我們媒體就是最怕說沒有流量那如果說發了一個讓中國不開心的新聞或貼文那有可能就導致被消失或限制流量等等那發了新聞必須躲東躲西喔那不僅影響那個新聞自由那我想中國也更可能藉這個手段來控制台灣的輿論在這個灰色地帶來侵蝕台灣的民主社會"},{"start":166.429,"end":180.583,"text":"所以本席就想要問個直接的問題面對這種大型跨境的數位平台可能的內容審查那台灣要怎麼樣因應那上週蔡其昌委員質詢的時候他有速發布是說希望美國能強迫他們公開內容審核的機制"},{"start":187.21,"end":202.451,"text":"那我想請教抒發部你是否有辦法在我國來促成審核機制的公開另外就是說促成審核機制公開後那抒發部的規劃要如何具體著手處理這些問題 部長"},{"start":204.153,"end":220.182,"text":"那個報告委員那個確實是剛剛講Meta這個因為這個有這樣的一個新聞我們很關注那我們也知道說事實上這個是在2017年以前那後來2019年Facebook就放棄了中國大陸的市場"},{"start":220.842,"end":237.021,"text":"所以現在就是說如果中國對Meta Facebook有影響力我們還需要再關注那至於說現在這個因為這個美國公聽會現在在對這個議題在進行偵查所以我們當然持續跟Meta溝通我們也希望"},{"start":237.782,"end":262.626,"text":"在這裡面他也要對我們公開所以我們這邊在同時進行就是我們同時看美國在這個公聽會的一個結果同時看台灣的這些目前的審查的方式他要對我們公開然後我們也會接受申訴然後看看怎麼樣再跟Meta那他就至少這個演算法怎麼樣的貼文要被下架必須要透明公開這個是我們會跟Meta去要求"},{"start":263.183,"end":280.161,"text":"好 那我想目前速發部它針對所謂的媒體議價法的態度看起來是支持新聞有價您剛也一直在強調可是對立的專法似乎好像就不那麼明朗那從上屆本席提出到現在也差不多兩個年"},{"start":281.562,"end":295.996,"text":"那這部法的推行的過程我想最主要面臨到的困境您剛在那個口頭報告的時候也有稍微提及喔那如果說暫時推不成那我們到底有什麼樣的替代方案可以回應媒體界對這個法的期待"},{"start":297.998,"end":327.124,"text":"什麼時候再找這些大型的平台業者媒體學者再次來討論同時也想請教NCC跟文化部你們認為媒體業低薪高工時的這種窘境有沒有辦法來扭轉還是可以再做些什麼樣的努力來提升基層媒體從業人員的薪資跟勞動條件先請速發部回應再請NCC或勞動部"},{"start":329.315,"end":331.106,"text":"我們的那個策略我再請次長先補充說明"},{"start":333.432,"end":350.995,"text":"目前我們在想辦法提升台灣媒體的收入我們是跟現在最配合的公司之一是GoogleGoogle他做了兩件事情第一個他是捐了三年三億台幣的基金現在交由DTA台灣數位產業計經濟協會由他們來讓這個基金然後想辦法來幫助我們"},{"start":358.837,"end":386.283,"text":"台灣的那個媒體業就是改善他們的狀況另外就是說Google他們也成立一個所謂的北極星計畫就是要輔導各家媒體改為收費制因為現在大部分台灣媒體都是不收費的那美國的那個Financial Times因為他們的收費機制做得很好所以Financial Times他現在會在全世界幫各國的媒體做這個方面的就是轉為收費機制的輔導工作"},{"start":388.823,"end":405.737,"text":"那所有這些費用會由那個Google來支付謝謝是那我再補充一下就是說其實除了這個以外還有技術面我們希望是說幫助媒體做數位轉型提供一些AI的工具這個能夠找到新的商業模式所以這個也是我們還在努力那其他問題是不是請"},{"start":408.038,"end":426.096,"text":"通常會這邊跟委員補充報告兩點第一點NG所管的廣電媒體他們會有一些營運計畫我們要邀請他說營運計畫理由涉及到公司內部治理的一定要相關的法律事項相關法規比方說勞動的相關條件那些一定要符合法律事項這是第一點第二點補充是"},{"start":427.737,"end":440.227,"text":"由於媒體競爭激烈包括網路媒體一般傳統媒體我們希望他在流財引財方面要有吸引力說必須要請他們要行政次長他們這方面要特別要提升他們的一些待遇以上"},{"start":441.138,"end":466.48,"text":"好 那除了前述我們提到的這個媒體業勞動條件需要提升以外本席認為其實相關的部會我們都要去追蹤了解就是新聞媒體的創作跟轉型創新跟轉型我們看到數位經濟暨這個產業發展協會與Google有達成協議喔就是說要協助Google管理並執行這個台灣新聞數位共融基金的計畫"},{"start":467.381,"end":492.137,"text":"那協助台灣新聞的媒體做創新跟轉型只是說要內容具原創性又具公益性的新聞媒體都可以適用那不過我想有一個疑問的地方是說那這個是一個短期的計畫那如何轉換成長期的機制那來回應說新聞內容產製的付出以及它應該要怎麼樣跟大的這個平台來斡旋合理"},{"start":493.859,"end":519.255,"text":"來斡旋合理的方案那似乎這好像都還有待商榷那在這個同時我們應該要保障所謂的這個撰寫地方的新聞或促進那個媒體多元化以及這個服務特定社群的小型的媒體業者或大型的媒體公平的競爭的權利所以有關這個台灣新聞數位共同基金這個討論的運用以及小型媒體的保障那不曉得部長你怎麼看"},{"start":520.698,"end":525.026,"text":"我們素材署跟Google有不斷的溝通我請素材署補充回答"},{"start":526.338,"end":551.943,"text":"跟委員報告 我們跟委員一樣關心這個的長期性所以我們跟Google來推出 督促一下是不是將來永續性的一個做法不過Google說因為它這個三年還有一年多它需要觀察一下這個的成效雖然目前已經補助40個案子了但是它還要持續觀察這個成效再來決定下一步 以上當然它有新的 剛剛市長報告過的北基新的計畫對 這個也是它會有新的其他的措施一直出來"},{"start":552.483,"end":580.24,"text":"至於這個共榮基金他還要觀察這三年的執行的狀況 以上好 那最後30秒我想跟部長請教說有關於這個文本與資料探勘就是所謂的TDM的這個議題速發部要如何設計我國規範的架構簡單來講就是說TDM這個技術是巨量的資料的蒐集為基礎那將這些資料進行擷取 重置或編譯 然後"},{"start":582.853,"end":607.311,"text":"變成可進行開採分析的資料庫來便於這個分析利用那我想在這個人工智慧的應用上是個普遍的應用可是TDM的過程也牽涉到著作權侵害的這個疑慮所以很多國家其實都嘗試著TDM的相關法規的調適那一方面也放寬TDM技術應用的這個限制二方面我們也要著重"},{"start":607.931,"end":629.307,"text":"註作權人的權益所以像歐盟的數位單一市場註作權指令的修改這樣他就為了註作權法設計了例外規定那請教部長說那我們組長AI監管的訴發部要怎麼樣跟經濟部制裁局來溝通來因應TDM技術的發展那目前不曉得我們"},{"start":629.907,"end":656.347,"text":"市長的規劃 報告委員我們是在進行那這個因為我們資料創新室就是在處理這個這個資料分享的議題我請那個市長說好委員好有關於這個TDM的這件事情因為我們在做這個AI訓練語要的時候呢涉及如果說這個著作權保護的這個議題的如果機器訓練的時候需要拿到這些資料來訓練的話那就涉及這個"},{"start":657.731,"end":675.061,"text":"助索權重置的問題但是為了解決這個問題以及現在尚未立法所以我們這個速發部就訂定了一個台灣主權A壓訓練語料授權條款第一版那這個版本呢還要跟這個制裁局一起來協調內容之後我們就會釋出讓各界來運用喔好好時間關係謝謝謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":305,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（9時40分）謝謝主席，有請數發部黃部長。"],["主席：好，數發部黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：黃部長好。我想健全的新聞報導環境有助於民主社會的發展，這是之前數發部召集大型跨境數位平臺與新聞業的對話會議中，數位平臺與新聞媒體業者都認為的具體共識，而健全的新聞報導，媒體要怎麼塑造？本席認為最重要的就是要保障新聞的自由以及基層媒體從業人員的權益。本席上一屆跟這一屆都有提出，就是所謂的「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」，這個草案我們期盼透過新聞有價的基本價值來提振臺灣的媒體環境。","本席之前有提過新聞媒體面對了三大困境，第一個，新聞依賴網路平臺導引流量，而網路的流量又受到大型跨國數位平臺的宰制。第二個困境是新聞產製的方式受到跨國平臺的制約，所以報導的內容、標題會被演算法牽著鼻子走，導致有很多大家所詬病的內容農場、釣魚式的標題這種亂象。第三，演算法也被大型的跨國平臺掌握，這個演算法到底是如何運作我們也無從得知，可是它已經造成媒體產製內容的矛盾。我想世界各國大概也都面臨到這樣的困境，臺灣在這樣的困境底下受到的威脅我想是更加危急，前Meta全球公共政策總監前陣子就有公開指控，說Meta跟中國政府密切聯繫，有內容審查相關制度，而臺、港用戶的熱門內容就是受到審查的一部分，有內容審查，媒體最怕的就是沒有流量，如果發了一個讓中國不開心的新聞或貼文，就有可能導致被消失或限制流量等等，發了新聞必須躲東躲西，不僅影響新聞自由，中國也更可能藉這個手段來控制臺灣的輿論，在這個灰色地帶侵蝕臺灣的民主社會。","所以本席想要問一個直接的問題，面對這種大型跨境數位平臺可能的內容審查，臺灣要怎麼樣因應？上週蔡其昌委員質詢的時候，數發部是說希望美國能強迫他們公開內容審核的機制。我想請教數發部，你是否有辦法在我國促成審核機制的公開？另外就是，促成審核機制公開後，數發部規劃要如何具體著手處理這些問題？部長。"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，剛剛提到因為Meta有這樣的新聞，我們很關注，我們也知道事實上這個是在2017年以前，後來2019年Facebook就放棄了中國大陸的市場，所以現在就是說如果中國對Meta、Facebook有影響力，我們還需要再關注。至於現在，因為美國公聽會現在在對這個議題進行偵查，所以我們當然持續跟Meta溝通，我們也希望在這裡面它也要對我們公開，所以我們這邊在同時進行的就是，我們同時看美國在這個公聽會的結果，同時它也要對臺灣公開目前的審查方式，並且我們也會接受申訴，看看怎麼樣再跟Meta……至少有關這個演算法是什麼樣的貼文要被下架，這部分必須要透明公開，這是我們會跟Meta去要求的。"],["林委員宜瑾：目前數發部針對所謂媒體議價法的態度看起來是支持新聞有價，您剛剛也一直在強調，可是對於立專法似乎好像就不那麼明朗。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["林委員宜瑾：從上屆本席提出到現在也差不多兩年，這部法在推行過程中最主要面臨到的困境，您剛剛在口頭報告的時候也有稍微提及。好，如果暫時推不成，我們到底有什麼樣的替代方案可以回應媒體界對這個法的期待？什麼時候再找這些大型的平臺業者、媒體、學者再次來討論？同時也想請教NCC跟文化部，你們認為媒體業低薪、高工時的這種窘境有沒有辦法扭轉？可以再做些什麼樣的努力來提升基層媒體從業人員的薪資跟勞動條件？先請數發部回應，然後再請NCC或勞動部。"],["黃部長彥男：有關我們的策略，我請次長先補充說明。"],["林次長宜敬：目前我們在想辦法提升臺灣媒體的收入，現在最配合的公司之一是Google，Google做了兩件事情，第一個是它捐了3年3億臺幣的基金，現在交由DTA（社團法人數位經濟暨產業發展協會），由它們run這個基金，然後想辦法來幫助我們臺灣的媒體業，就是改善他們的狀況。另外就是Google也成立一個所謂的北極星計畫，就是要輔導各家媒體改為收費制，因為現在大部分臺灣媒體都是不收費的，美國的Financial Times的收費機制做得很好，所以Financial Times現在會在全世界幫各國媒體做轉為收費機制的輔導工作，所有這些費用會由Google來支付。謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：我再補充一下，其實除了這個以外，還有技術面，我們希望幫助媒體做數位轉型，提供一些AI的工具，希望能夠找到新的商業模式，這個也是我們還在努力的。至於其他問題，就請其他單位說明。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：通傳會跟委員補充報告兩點，第一點，我們NCC所管的廣電媒體會有一些營運計畫，我們也要求如果營運計畫涉及到公司內部治理的相關法遵事項、相關法規，比方說勞動的相關條件等一定要符合法遵事項，這是第一點。第二點補充，由於媒體競爭激烈，包括網路媒體、一般傳統媒體，我們希望在留才、引才方面要有吸引力，所以要行政指導他們，在這方面特別要提升他們的待遇。以上。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，除了前述我們提到的媒體業勞動條件需要提升以外，本席認為相關的部會都要去追蹤了解，就是新聞媒體的創新跟轉型。我們看到數位經濟暨產業發展協會與Google有達成協議，就是要協助Google管理並執行「台灣新聞數位共榮基金」的計畫，協助臺灣新聞的媒體做創新跟轉型，只要是內容具原創性又具公益性的新聞媒體都可以適用。不過我有疑問的地方是說，這是一個短期的計畫，如何轉換成長期的機制來回應新聞內容產製的付出，以及應該要怎麼樣跟大的平臺來斡旋合理的方案，這似乎好像都還有待商榷。在這個同時，我們應該要保障所謂撰寫地方新聞或促進媒體多元化及服務特定社群的小型媒體業者與大型媒體公平競爭的權利，所以有關台灣新聞數位共榮基金的討論、運用以及小型媒體的保障，不曉得部長怎麼看？"],["黃部長彥男：有關這個部分，因為我們數產署跟Google有不斷的溝通協調，我請數產署補充回答。"],["林署長俊秀：跟委員報告，我們跟委員一樣關心這個的長期性，所以我們跟Google來溝通是不是以此作為將來永續性的一個作法。不過Google表示，這個三年的部分還有一年多，它希望觀察一下這個的成效，雖然目前已經補助40個案子了，但是它還要持續觀察成效後再來決定下一步。當然，它也有新的，剛剛次長報告過的北極星計畫，也就是它會有新的其他措施一直出來。至於這個共榮基金，它還要觀察這三年的執行狀況。以上。"],["林委員宜瑾：最後30秒，我想跟部長請教有關於文字與資料探勘，就是所謂的TDM這個議題，數發部要如何設計我國規範的架構？簡單來講就是說，TDM這個技術是以巨量資料的蒐集為基礎，將這些資料進行擷取、重製或編譯成可進行開採分析的資料庫，以便於分析利用。我想在人工智慧應用上是一個普遍的應用，可是TDM的過程也牽涉到著作權侵害的疑慮，所以很多國家其實都嘗試著去做TDM相關法規的調適，一方面要放寬TDM技術應用的限制，二方面也要著重著作權人的權益，像歐盟的數位化單一市場著作權指令的修改就為了著作權法設計了例外規定。請教部長，我們主掌AI監管的數發部要怎麼樣跟經濟部智財局溝通來因應TDM技術的發展？目前不曉得我們有怎麼樣的規劃？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們是有在進行，我們的資料創新司就是在處理資料共享的議題，我請司長來說明。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。"],["莊司長明芬：委員好。有關於TDM的這件事情，因為我們在做AI訓練語料的時候，涉及著作權保護的議題部分，如果機器訓練的時候需要拿這些資料來訓練的話，當然就涉及到著作權重製的問題，但是為了解決這個問題，因為現在尚未立法，所以我們數發部就訂定了一個臺灣主權AI訓練語料授權條款第一版，這個版本還要跟智財局一起協調內容，確定之後就會釋出讓各界來運用。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，因為時間關係，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾召委。","現在請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案；\n六、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案」案【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00002"}}},{"id":"160890","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160890","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc03b18d952732fea4d2bf9a8039e28b7ca5144d4d67ecd09c1be90c14cbbb16b115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:24:42 - 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昨天"},{"start":109.924,"end":127.979,"text":"媒體報導已經有報導了我想請教到底為什麼一開始我們要推動所謂的新聞議價法或是不管是任何人講的不同名詞新聞任性平台還是新聞議價還是我們相關的為什麼要推動"},{"start":129.218,"end":148.303,"text":"最核心的理由是什麼我們當然新聞有價這個是最核心的理由我們推動這個我們當然就是說認為新聞有價是用什麼方法去推動我們一直在做研究跟觀察不是部長如果說你沒有辦法了解最核心你是主管機關如果說我們連為什麼要推動這最核心的理由講不出來"},{"start":149.936,"end":174.992,"text":"那個報告委員您指的是說為什麼要推動對為什麼要推動各國不管是現在澳洲加拿大歐盟等大家為什麼要推動最核心的理由基本上就是說因為現在這剛剛講就是講說現在很多新聞確實是照就是這個平台上的新聞要怎麼樣跟新聞媒體來共融這個事情當然是大家要要去協商但是我還是跟委員講就是說"},{"start":175.992,"end":197.538,"text":"最主要概念不就是因為新聞我們支持新聞有價我們希望新聞能夠獨立自主營運作業不受任何的干擾這其一所以他新聞有價嘛其二就是新聞媒體您剛講到整個市場環境有變遷所以現在新聞媒體的通路載具是完全不對等的"},{"start":198.118,"end":226.41,"text":"他面對到的是一個龐大的科技巨擘怪獸也因此個別的新聞媒體他可能很難去跟社群平台來談判也因此才會各國有公部門來協助做一個平台嘛報告委員各國的意思在這邊如果是強制溢價法就是澳洲但是澳洲這幾年實施下來就是我們針對的所謂的這個平台主要是針對Google跟Meta"},{"start":226.89,"end":249.48,"text":"那事實上META這個整個的溢價法在META完全不配合所以事實上我們觀察國際的這些發展強迫溢價法其實在澳洲只有澳洲實施而且目前是沒有成功的所以財務部長本席剛剛有聆聽你的報告也聆聽NCC主委的報告所以我都很理解但我們現在想要了解的是更進一步的部分"},{"start":250.06,"end":276.694,"text":"所以我也看到沒有錯我們一直是開放的態度六個委員不同的版本就是希望是我們往這個方向來走但重點是第一到目前為止兩年多來行政部門沒有版本這是具體的事實第二好速發部的報告到目前為止你也沒有跟我們講說到底溝通了多少次結果NCC的報告告訴我們你們開了三輪八場會議好來"},{"start":279.141,"end":304.184,"text":"我請教一下這三輪巴掌會議大型數位平台的對話會議誰主持這個是由書發部還有NCC的副主委還有這個書發部誰主持書發部也是次長三位次長聯席來主持三位次長聯席來主持那部長有沒有掌握這三次的會議"},{"start":307.454,"end":324.324,"text":"這個有跟我報告不過這個上次會議都在有跟您報告就好我請教我們現在也看到本席我還是開宗明義強調我們往新聞有價方向但是怎麼樣來做我們現在等於是討論到怎麼樣來做嘛對不對好那我們現在不管是有所謂"},{"start":325.851,"end":340.893,"text":"澳洲模式就是所謂的強制溢價模式也有討論到像歐盟模式駐作臨接權模式或是基金模式那我們這三場八場會議裡面有沒有更聚焦的方向或共識"},{"start":342.33,"end":364.19,"text":"來 這個我們請市長謝謝委員的指導事實上我們都知道 的確我們今天為什麼有這個會議是因為現在台灣的媒體非常的辛苦因為傳統上來講 媒體的收入有兩種一個是訂閱的收入 另外一個是廣告的收入那因為現在大部分的民眾都不訂閱媒體了"},{"start":365.131,"end":389.717,"text":"然後所以他們就沒有媒體的訂閱的收入然後再來廣告的收入都被Meta跟Google收走了所以我們就事實上從澳洲開始就提出了這個媒體強制溢價法然後後來加拿大也跟進了但是很不幸的是說這些方法在澳洲跟加拿大都受到很大的反挫各位聽本席的問題回答問題好不好你不要講大家都知道的事情本席剛剛問什麼問題"},{"start":391.749,"end":407.783,"text":"就是有沒有找那個委員會找那個各家媒體來溝通事實上我們之前不是我不是問這個問題你問很多問題請問是問哪一個問題聽清楚本席的問題再回答那不然你怎麼會部長怎麼會推你來回答謝謝不要這樣子藐視國會到這種程度不敢來部長請您"},{"start":412.026,"end":426.333,"text":"告訴一下市長本席剛剛問什麼問題經過八次的討論以後因為這個是在我上任之前他剛剛跟我報告之後您上任之前八次會議是在您上任之前嗎對對對那八次會議是在我上任之前但是那個我上任之後是主要是跟一些工協會跟學者在討論這個議題"},{"start":427.654,"end":444.088,"text":"那我得到的那個那時候初步剛上任的時候想法是那時候認為著作臨階權是比較可行的方案著作臨階權對但是現在現在因為歐盟實施了一年多兩年也發生了一些問題所以反而是讓我們覺得說因為我們看到這個強制議價法有問題著作臨階權也發生一些問題"},{"start":448.17,"end":463.775,"text":"基金也有問題所以三者都有問題但公共政策來講其實某種程度上沒有百分之百完美無瑕的政策怎麼樣能夠達到我們的政策目標方向所以現在我們有沒有比較聚焦"},{"start":464.355,"end":479.861,"text":"現在就是說因為在這個過程中後來Google有個共榮基金這個一個機制這個機制在過去三年提出三億的共榮基金這個可能是一個model我們還在看因為其實就兩個公司而已一個是Google一個是Meta怎麼讓Google跟Meta願意把這個一些來補助國內的新聞媒體部長那為什麼要立法"},{"start":486.951,"end":513.504,"text":"我們要立法的目的跟宗旨以及政府存在的價值就是因為我們絕對不可能把所有公共政策寄託在業者的善意上或是業者他自己今天想做那如果說明天不想做他不做所以有一些東西如果部長我們先肯定你剛剛的講法是說你已經有先往八場會議有相對聚焦可能會以基金跟"},{"start":516.012,"end":542.746,"text":"鄰接權的方向來走這可能會比較符合我們的國情但是不是最終提出來因為你的版本沒有可是重點在於是什麼重點在於是我們的立法還是要去有一個時程讓國人知道我們的國家方向是什麼來最後因為時間的關係最後我只請教一下你剛剛也提到就是兩家公司Meta跟Google"},{"start":543.544,"end":571.414,"text":"這兩家公司大家也都會使用但是它的規模大小不應該存在變成是我們政府好像沒有辦法去跟跨國公司來做談判對不對所以我們之前也一直講到Meta也好 Google也好有一些詐騙廣告它的一個部分我們也要採取強硬的態度來 內政部曾經講之前一直講說沒有法源那我們也一直講是說你們速發部要找這些業者來喝咖啡"},{"start":572.588,"end":601.167,"text":"因為沒有法源嘛 但現在我們今天有法源了那內政部也講是說會診資料 會診網路平台詐騙廣告三月送速發布來裁罰現在已經五月了 兩個月過去了過去三十天我們最多的詐騙 現在也講詐騙的金額一直創新高那我們過去三十天裡面 最多詐騙廣告投放在哪裡這個我請那個訴財署署長回答所以過去三十天我們詐騙廣告最多投放在哪裡"},{"start":602.518,"end":625.298,"text":"速發部自己一樣是Meta來我們看一下下一頁你們的通報網百分之本席過去就用你們的通報網有來質詢過我也講這是你們上面的資料過去30天裡面百分之80以上都是Meta或Meta相關的公司是好來回來上一頁"},{"start":626.274,"end":653.963,"text":"那這樣兩個月過去了過去三十天至少有通報你們自己就已經有彙整就差不多快十萬筆那我們跟裁罰裁罰了多少我們那個就通報我們只要在二十四小時內下架的話就並不違法那我們剛剛看到那個都做到二十四小時下架嗎對 以我們訴發部這邊來講都是但是因為內政部那邊也有通報給那個META那內政部那邊他表示說他有些他配合"},{"start":655.284,"end":668.036,"text":"因為國人的感覺國人的感覺過去有一些詐騙形態確實有比較減少但是詐騙有沒有進行還是持續有尤其是投資詐騙現在更加的猖獗"},{"start":669.685,"end":696.257,"text":"那我現在想要請教的就是內政部收集3月送數位部裁罰那到目前為止有沒有裁罰判件到目前為止我們都還沒有收到內政部還沒有收到內政部2月6號跟我們講說要送速發部結果過去三個月了內政部沒有送到判件來2月6號的中央社新聞內政部說3月要送速發部裁罰結果剛剛次長講大白話"},{"start":697.981,"end":726.624,"text":"到現在5月1號了內政部兩個多月的時間沒有送辦件來給抒發過裁判難怪詐騙猖獗啊難怪詐騙滿天飛啊政府在忙什麼因為他要送來要檢出一些證據我們是在談哪些證據應該檢附我們才能夠做裁判所以這個也有費了一點時間因為他是要檢附台灣是第三世界社會我們中華民國是第三世界國家是不是內政委員會就在那邊"},{"start":727.819,"end":746.498,"text":"走路兩 三十秒然後結果你跟我們講說二月的時候跟我們講說要裁罰結果現在兩個部會在踢皮球到現在沒有裁罰半件還不是沒有裁罰半件是連送來都還沒送來部長 為什麼我現在那麼生氣"},{"start":747.697,"end":776.906,"text":"就是因為兩個部分過去你們一直跟我們講是說我們要有法源依據立法院要修法才能讓你們去裁罰我們去年是不是打詐三法打詐四法打詐五法都要打詐幾法了通過了沒通過了那你們現在有武器你們不用那詐騙過去二月有下降我們看打詐儀表板差不多六十億三月突然又上升快將近百億"},{"start":779.028,"end":806.103,"text":"欸不要以為被詐騙不關你們的事欸可能每一個個案都是一個破碎的家庭我之前就已經講過了結果到現在你們跟我們講是說兩個多月過去沒有裁罰辦件然後那支沒有送過來是不敢跟Meta不敢跟Google這種大公司開刀是不是我們會說24小時下架不下架我們會裁罰目前他們Google Meta完全配合這一點所以這個沒有問題部長我沒有辦法接受你的話"},{"start":806.983,"end":831.498,"text":"是因為剛剛市長已經親口證實了連資料都沒有送來速發部你怎麼有辦法告訴我們是說他們配合就是我們這個我們速發部跟那個內政部都有在做打詐的工作我們這邊會通報那個把那個疑似詐騙的廣告通報給Meta然後內政部那邊也會通報給Meta那我們這部分我們速發部就是處理我們速發部利用網詐通報查詢網"},{"start":832.798,"end":851.455,"text":"查到的那些疑似詐騙或已經確認為詐騙我們通報給META那這一部分我們就是我們疏發部就是處理這部分的工作 謝謝好 那個部長我跟你講紅委員要的就是你們沒有說到要精準喔不要有說到說沒有說到那如果沒有說到"},{"start":852.847,"end":873.696,"text":"那個洪委員已經擠出這個問題我希望部長你要去把他督促最後一定要去跟洪委員來做報告因為這個嫌疏很大內政部說有你們說沒有那這個公文跑到哪邊去所以我要拜託黃部長你要把他當成因為洪委員執行的這個他重點在這裡"},{"start":874.676,"end":898.328,"text":"如果你們收到你們不開華那當然他就會針對你們那如果內政部沒有送來那當然內政部有問題所以這個你要把它理清楚回報給我們孟凱委員好不好整個政府過去這幾個月螺絲真的鬆了還是整個政府從上到下都在忙的打壓政敵對付政敵"},{"start":901.738,"end":926.525,"text":"所以當看到行政院長下鄉六日就講罷免然後結果我們最應該幫國人防詐 打詐 開罰沒有收到非常離譜部長 你是一個我過去還算尊重的專業人士該專業的時候請一定要專業謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":223,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時24分）主席謝謝，麻煩請黃部長跟NCC陳代理主委。"],["主席：好，黃部長、陳代理主委。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好、代理主委好。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：一直講新聞有價，NCC也講說支持立法，但是到目前為止，我們都還是看到很多的空話，我說實在話，為什麼民進黨政府會讓大家覺得是反廢死？就是因為死刑有在那邊，但是我們看到好像政府的方向跟策略都一直往反廢死的方向走，如果說我們講說酒駕零容忍，可是當酒駕事件一而再再而三發生的時候，我們不提高罰則，不針對立法有任何的主張或是改變或是加緊、加嚴、更嚴厲地執行，那酒駕零容忍是喊假的，過去我們看到我們確實有往這個方向走，是酒駕零容忍。但一樣，數發部也好、NCC也好，今天一直講說新聞有價，可是你們的報告充耳未聞，沒有讓我們看到有任何的版本，今天有6個不同委員、跨黨派的版本，但我請教一下，行政部門的版本在哪裡？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，這個議題我想2年前就有在討論沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：不只2年前，更久，所以部長已經先證實了這個議題已經講了至少超過2年以上，但是到目前為止版本在哪裡？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，因為這2年有幾件事情發生，造成這個議題變得更複雜，一個當然就是技術的演進，因為AI的出現，讓整個所謂著作的部分產生問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，部長，昨天媒體已經有報導了，我想請教，到底為什麼一開始我們要推動所謂的新聞議價法，或是不管是任何人講的不同名詞，新聞韌性平台還是新聞議價還是我們相關的，為什麼要推動？最核心的理由是什麼？"],["黃部長彥男：當然新聞有價這個是……"],["洪委員孟楷：最核心的理由？"],["黃部長彥男：對，我們推動這個，我們當然就是認為新聞有價，只是用什麼方法去推動，我們一直在做研究跟觀察。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，如果你沒有辦法了解最核心，你是主管機關，如果連為什麼要推動這最核心的理由講不出來……"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，您指的是說為什麼要推動新聞有價化？"],["洪委員孟楷：對，為什麼要推動？各國，不管是現在澳洲、加拿大、歐盟等，大家為什麼要推動最核心的理由？"],["黃部長彥男：基本上就是說，因為現在……這剛剛講的，就是講說現在很多新聞確實是造成……平台上的新聞要怎麼樣跟新聞媒體來共榮，這個事情當然是大家要去協商，但是我還是跟委員講，就是說，因為我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：最主要的概念不就是因為新聞……我們支持新聞有價，我們希望新聞能夠獨立自主營運作業不受任何的干擾，這其一，所以新聞有價嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：對，新聞有價。"],["洪委員孟楷：其二就是新聞媒體，您剛剛講到整個市場環境有變遷，所以現在新聞媒體的通路、載具是完全不對等的，它面對到的是一個龐大的科技巨擘、怪獸，也因此個別的新聞媒體，它可能很難去跟社群平台來談判，也因此各國才會有公部門來協助做一個平台嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，各國的意思在這邊如果是強制議價法就是澳洲，但是澳洲這幾年實施下來，所謂的平台，主要是針對Google跟Meta，事實上，整個議價法，Meta完全不配合，所以事實上，我們觀察國際的這些發展，強迫議價法其實只有澳洲實施，而且目前是沒有成功的，所以才會造成……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席剛剛有聆聽你的報告，也聆聽了NCC主委的報告，所以我都很理解，但我們現在想要了解的是更進一步的部分，我也看到沒有錯，我們一直是開放的態度，6個委員不同的版本就是希望往這個方向來走，但重點是第一，到目前為止，兩年多來行政部門沒有版本，這是具體的事實。第二，數發部的報告，到目前為止你也沒有跟我們講說到底溝通了多少次，結果NCC的報告告訴我們，你們開了3輪、8場會議，好，我請教一下這3輪、8場會議，大型數位平台的對話會議，誰主持？"],["林署長俊秀：這是由數發部還有NCC的副主委，還有文化部的次長。"],["洪委員孟楷：數發部誰主持？"],["林署長俊秀：數發部也是次長，3位次長聯席主持。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長有沒有掌握這3次的會議？"],["黃部長彥男：有跟我報告，不過這3次會議都在……"],["洪委員孟楷：有跟你報告就好，我請教，我們現在也看到，我還是開宗明義強調，我們往新聞有價的方向，但是怎麼樣來做，我們現在等於是討論到怎麼樣來做嘛！對不對？好，我們現在不管是有所謂澳洲模式，就是所謂的強制議價模式，也有討論到像歐盟模式，著作鄰接權模式，或是基金模式，我們這3輪8場會議裡面，有沒有更聚焦的方向或共識？"],["黃部長彥男：這個我們請次長說明。"],["林次長宜敬：謝謝委員的指導，事實上我們都知道，今天為什麼有這個會議，是因為現在臺灣的媒體非常辛苦，因為傳統上來講，媒體的收入有兩種，一個是訂閱的收入，另外一個是廣告的收入，因為現在大部分的民眾都不訂閱媒體了，所以他們就沒有訂閱的收入，然後再來廣告的收入都被Meta跟Google收走了，所以事實上從澳洲開始就提出了媒體強制議價法，然後後來加拿大也跟進了，但是很不幸的是說，這些方法在澳洲跟加拿大都受到很大的反挫……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，可不可以聽本席的問題回答問題好不好？你不要講大家都知道的事情，本席剛剛問什麼問題？"],["林次長宜敬：就是有沒有找各家媒體來溝通，事實上……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，我不是問這個問題……"],["林次長宜敬：你問很多問題，請問是問哪一個問題？"],["洪委員孟楷：聽清楚本席的問題再回答，那不然部長怎麼會推你來回答？"],["林次長宜敬：謝謝……"],["洪委員孟楷：不要這樣子藐視國會到這種程度。"],["林次長宜敬：不敢。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，請您告訴一下次長，本席剛剛問什麼問題。"],["黃部長彥男：經過8次的討論以後，因為這個是在我上任之前，他跟我報告之後……"],["洪委員孟楷：您上任之前？8次會議是在您上任之前嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對，那8次都在我上任之前，但是我上任之後主要是跟一些公協會、跟學者在討論這個議題，剛上任的初步想法是，那時候認為著作鄰接權是比較可行的方案。"],["洪委員孟楷：著作鄰接權？"],["黃部長彥男：對，但是現在因為歐盟實施了一年多、兩年，也發生了一些問題，所以反而是讓我們覺得說，因為我們看到強制議價法有問題，著作鄰接權也發生一些問題，基金也有一些……"],["洪委員孟楷：也有問題？"],["黃部長彥男：也有問題，所以……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以三者都有問題，但公共政策來講，其實某種程度上沒有百分之百完美無瑕的政策，怎麼樣能夠達到我們的政策目標方向，所以現在我們有沒有比較聚焦？"],["黃部長彥男：有，現在就是說，因為在這個過程中，後來Google有一個共榮基金的機制，這個機制在過去3年提出3億的共榮基金，這個可能是一個model，我們還在看能不能……因為其實就兩個公司而已，一個就是Google，一個是Meta，怎麼讓Google跟Meta願意拿一些來補助國內的新聞媒體，這是一個我們需要……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，那為什麼要立法？我們要立法的目的跟宗旨以及政府存在的價值，就是因為我們絕對不可能把所有公共政策寄託在業者的善意上，或是業者它自己今天想做，那如果說明天不想做它不做。所以有一些東西，部長，我先肯定你剛剛的講法是說你已經有先往8場會議有相對聚焦，可能會以基金跟著作鄰接權的方向來走，這可能會比較符合我們的國情，但是不是最終提出來，因為你的版本沒有，可是重點在於什麼？重點在於我們的立法還是要有一個時程讓國人知道我們的國家方向是什麼，是吧？"],["黃部長彥男：對，所以剛剛……"],["洪委員孟楷：來，最後，因為時間的關係，最後我只請教一下，你剛剛也提到就是兩家公司，Meta跟Google，這兩家公司大家也都會使用，但是它的規模大小不應該存在變成是我們政府好像沒有辦法去跟跨國公司來做談判，對不對？所以我們之前也一直講到，Meta也好、Google也好，有一些詐騙廣告，它的一個部分我們也要採取強硬的態度。內政部之前一直講說沒有法源，我們也一直講你們數發部要找這些業者來喝咖啡，因為沒有法源，但現在我們已經有法源了，內政部也講是說彙整資料、彙整網路平台詐騙廣告，3月送數發部來裁罰，現在已經5月了，2個月過去了，過去30天，我們最多的詐騙，現在也講詐騙的金額一直創新高，那我們過去30天裡面，最多詐騙廣告投放在哪裡？"],["黃部長彥男：這個我請數產署署長回答。"],["林署長俊秀：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以過去30天，我們詐騙廣告最多投放在哪裡？數發部自己。"],["林署長俊秀：一樣是Meta。"],["洪委員孟楷：一樣是Meta。來，我們看一下下一頁，你們的通報網，本席過去就用你們的通報網有來質詢過，我也講這是你們上面的資料，過去30天裡面，80%以上都是Meta或Meta相關的公司，這樣兩個月過去了，過去30天有通報的，你們自己就已經有彙整，差不多快10萬筆，你們裁罰了多少？"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，通報只要在24小時內下架的話就並不違法，我們剛剛看到那個數據都是24小時下架。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，都做到24小時下架嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：對，以我們數發部這邊來講都是，但是因為內政部那邊也有通報給Meta，內政部那邊表示說有些他們配合，我們現在正在等內政部把資料送給我們。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為以國人的感覺，有一些詐騙型態確實有比較減少，但是詐騙有沒有進行？還是持續有，尤其是投資詐騙現在更加猖獗。我現在想要請教的就是，內政部說會蒐整詐騙廣告，3月送數位部裁罰，到目前為止有沒有裁罰半件？"],["林次長宜敬：到目前為止，我們都還沒有收到內政部的資料。"],["洪委員孟楷：還沒有收到？內政部2月6號跟我們講說要送數發部，結果過去3個月了，內政部沒有送來半件。2月6號的中央社新聞報導，內政部說3月要送數發部裁罰，結果剛剛次長講了大白話，到現在5月1號了，內政部兩個多月的時間沒有送半件給數發部裁罰，難怪詐騙猖獗啊，難怪詐騙滿天飛啊！政府在忙什麼？"],["林署長俊秀：跟委員報告，因為它送來要檢附一些證據，我們是在談哪些證據應該檢附才能夠做裁罰，所以這個有花了一點時間，因為它是要檢附證據的。"],["洪委員孟楷：臺灣是第三世界社會、我們中華民國是第三世界國家，是不是？內政委員會就在那邊，走路30秒。2月的時候跟我們講說要裁罰，結果現在兩個部會在踢皮球，到現在沒有裁罰半件，還不是沒有裁罰半件，是連送來都還沒送來！部長，為什麼我現在那麼生氣？因為兩個部分，過去你們一直跟我們講的是我們要有法源依據，立法院要修法才能讓你們去裁罰，去年是不是打詐三法、打詐四法、打詐五法，不知道都打詐幾法了，通過了沒？通過了，你們現在有武器了你們不用……"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，所以這個我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：詐騙在2月有下降，我們看打詐儀錶板，差不多60億，3月突然又上升至將近百億，不要以為被詐騙不關你們的事，可能每一個個案都是一個破碎的家庭，我之前就已經講過了，結果到現在，你們跟我們講兩個多月過去了，沒有裁罰半件，然後內政部沒有送過來。"],["黃部長彥男：我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：是不敢跟Meta、不敢跟Google這種大公司開刀，是不是？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們會請他們24小時下架，不下架我們會裁罰，目前Google、Meta完全配合這一點，所以這個沒有問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我沒有辦法接受你的話，是因為剛剛次長已經親口證實了連資料都沒有送來數發部，你怎麼有辦法告訴我們說他們配合？"],["林次長宜敬：報告委員，我們數發部跟內政部都有在做打詐的工作，我們這邊會把疑似詐騙的廣告通報給Meta，內政部那邊也會通報給Meta，我們數發部就是處理我們利用網詐通報查詢網查到的疑似詐騙或已經確認為是詐騙的，來通報給Meta，我們數發部就是處理這部分的工作，謝謝。"],["主席：部長，我跟你講，洪委員要的就是你們沒有收到的這件事要確定，不要有收到說沒有收到……"],["黃部長彥男：沒有、沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有收到。"],["主席：如果沒有收到，洪委員已經提出這個問題，我希望部長你要去督促。"],["黃部長彥男：好，我們再去……"],["主席：最後一定要去跟洪委員做報告……"],["黃部長彥男：好，我們再確認，但是目前沒收到。"],["主席：因為這個懸殊很大，內政部說有，你們說沒有，那這個公文跑到哪邊去？所以我要拜託黃部長你要把它當成……因為洪委員質詢的這個部分，他的重點在這裡，如果你們收到卻不開罰，當然他就會針對你們，但如果是內政部沒有送來，那當然是內政部有問題，所以這部分你要把它釐清楚，回報給我們孟楷委員，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：整個政府過去這幾個月螺絲真的鬆了，還是整個政府從上到下都在忙著打壓政敵、對付政敵？所以當看到行政院長六日下鄉去講罷免，結果最應該幫國人防詐、打詐、開罰的，竟然沒有收到，非常離譜。部長，你是一位我過去還算尊重的專業人士，該專業的時候請一定要專業，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","現在請林宜瑾召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-23,22-1","speakers":["林國成","王鴻薇","張啓楷","洪孟楷","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葛如鈞","范雲","林俊憲","蔡其昌","許智傑","郭昱晴","徐富癸","李昆澤","何欣純","陳素月","邱若華","廖先翔","魯明哲","陳培瑜","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅廷瑋","吳沛憶","葉元之","游顥","林楚茵","蔡易餘","張雅琳","柯志恩","萬美玲","黃健豪","劉書彬","翁曉玲"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通、教育及文化委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林楚茵等17人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平台議價法草案」案；二、審查委員羅廷瑋等\n16人擬具「新聞媒體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；三、審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「新聞媒\n體與數位平臺強制議價法草案」案；四、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新聞媒體與數位科技平台公\n平發展法草案」案；五、審查委員林宜瑾等21 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謝謝主席 是不是要請邱部長請部長委員好"},{"start":18.872,"end":38.777,"text":"部長今年正式邁入這個超高齡社會五個就有一個是65歲以上所以這個活得久已經大概不是很大的問題但是要活得好那活得好的話其實也難免生老病死所以其實不要講到說65歲以上的人包括我自己我跟我朋友之間在談的我們都講說害怕生不如死我自己見證過我自己兩個"},{"start":48.901,"end":63.932,"text":"父母他們都是中風的然後躺在醫院的很久的那在這種狀況裡面我也面臨過很多的情境所以都求善終並不是只有年紀大的人在想對我來講我就是"},{"start":65.353,"end":69.316,"text":"我甚至講跟朋友之間開玩笑就是說我75歲我大概自己如果沒有安樂死的這個法律的話我要自己去自殺那我告訴我的孩子說我是自主的而且是我很開心的我願意這麼做的那希望他們不要情緒不好所以我經常跟我兒子講說當我死亡的時候"},{"start":88.347,"end":105.798,"text":"你要給我還保障 不要給我綁水牢我的意思是說 我不要水障我在講的是生和死的溝通我經常告訴我的孩子我怎麼想免得到那一天的時候 他不知道母親怎麼想那在這種狀況裡面 今天的修法我必須要講說有的人希望說放寬ACP的經費啦ACP的執行場域去委託代理人的資格放寬等等"},{"start":117.586,"end":146.769,"text":"那大家講都講說這個簽署率只有0.45只有10.3萬人我還要你看到一個數字這個數字不是只有10.3萬人0.45的簽署率而是如果我問你已經簽署的到最後真的有去執行的比率有多高已經簽署的真正去落實這個簽署的人的意志那真正執行有多高呢"},{"start":147.506,"end":157.732,"text":"好 這個我想意思是有研究 不過我先跟委員做初步的報告那因為時間相當的短嘛 2019到現在大概有70% 有這麼高嗎到最後真正執行率 吻合率吻合率那個是你們推估的"},{"start":171.16,"end":175.222,"text":"其實有人是認為說 但是這是推估的其實大家都不認為說執行率很高所以顯然不是只有簽署的人數的問題而且就是說即便簽署了到最後的執行率為什麼沒有辦法執行"},{"start":192.009,"end":214.615,"text":"所以大家都想要尊嚴的善終 要拒絕無效的醫療可是當走到那一步 譬如說我的母親她在做DNR的時候我們都知道 可是到那一刻要我們決定我理性上都知道該怎麼做 我們全家人都知道該怎麼做可是到那一刻來的時候 我們做不下去 做不下去"},{"start":217.495,"end":231.672,"text":"然後就這樣又拖一拖到什麼時候才大家說放棄了吧因為覺得他這樣子下去拖下去太痛苦了所以我們才說那我們放棄吧所以我是要告訴你說從這個"},{"start":235.736,"end":258.981,"text":"衛生政策來檢驗這個病主法當然是還有在討論的這個空間但是並不是只有簽署率多高還包括執行上的障礙是什麼而這個東西是透過這一個法律就可以解決的嗎我想答案是否定的他不是只有一個病主法就足夠的所以"},{"start":262.61,"end":285.442,"text":"這種善終的概念喔老實說簽署率不高的原因還有一個啦大家對於病主法的想像跟他所想像的他以為這是一個善終的安樂死的概念的其實是不是的根本不是的當你真正去了解的時候發現不是的時候"},{"start":286.793,"end":292.599,"text":"那跟DNR差沒有很大的時候我認為DNR的簽署率很高啦到那一刻DNR的簽署率都很高"},{"start":299.254,"end":320.083,"text":"但DNR離這個病毒法的這個簽署那個內容並不是差異太大了 老實說那我們講說這個無效醫療要善終但是監察院在2011年他其實有"},{"start":321.864,"end":332.074,"text":"這個讓無效醫療和臨終關懷扶上檯面那他指出臨床上界定治療無效或者是何時讓安寧緩和和醫療接手都沒有辦法明確定義那具體而言"},{"start":338.059,"end":353.885,"text":"國家透過法律保障和約束專業但醫療行為屬專業自主其內涵仰賴專業自律和主管機關的含釋所以在這種狀況裡面我們都看到專業的醫生的意見跟這個"},{"start":356.306,"end":384.76,"text":"社會大眾的期待的所謂的比較好的善終的這個手段其實落差還是很大所以這種情境善終的臨床的情境雖然不是專科所能擅自去做詮釋的但是如果謹守專業自主讓政策去導引而不是不當的介入原本在醫病之間互相理解和治療狀態下的照護喔這個一直都是修法的困境"},{"start":386.072,"end":411.194,"text":"那這個我要講這個是因為有一個月旦醫學法報告有一篇文章叫做圖法不足以自行圖法不足以自行這個病人自主權利法的反思善終政策不曉得師長或是部長有沒有看過這個郭文華教授的這一篇文章我們華麗專家有"},{"start":414.787,"end":417.908,"text":"病主法的困局其原因固然有民眾的誤解和醫界的被動但是不可諱言的有來自病主法的理想性"},{"start":432.452,"end":455.1,"text":"生命自主需要保障 照護需要父權但是一般人並不容易理解這樣的一個抽象的概念更不要說在徹底了解後做的治療的選擇但我要講說其實他講的我部分上也認同但部分上不一定認同我覺得剛好相反很多人是相對的了解他對生命的價值和意義而想要選擇一種"},{"start":456.3,"end":472.527,"text":"善終的方式但是偏偏他所期待的是在病毒法這部法律裡面不能給的給不了的那從衛生的角度以外呢我們這個看到郭文華教授他要指出幾個盲點第一 宣導跟現實的落差"},{"start":477.469,"end":504.63,"text":"如果在這個被認為創造病患可以無痛苦讓醫師減少臨床壓力然後大家說這樣去創造健保資源不浪費因為無效醫療就是浪費嘛大家會覺得這樣可是呢這樣的狀況沒有釐清政策效果的優先順序或者是為什麼要病人以自主之名去啟動要一般人立即理解善終主動尋求理解AD跟簽署"},{"start":505.37,"end":527.532,"text":"似乎誠意過高第二個諮商的門檻他們覺得ACP的法律程序諮商的行為受到法律的規範AD就是法律文件在沒有相關素養教育的配套下具有法律性質的醫療諮商扛起公民教育的責任可行性他們也覺得有疑慮"},{"start":528.473,"end":535.238,"text":"本來諮商是專業的本來諮商是沒有法律的責任的可是現在是必須透過諮商這個過程來建立法律的責任然後才能去簽AD那麼這個諮商的過程大家去都可能是速成法速成法可是大家對這個概念是要先有"},{"start":548.187,"end":562.803,"text":"這個公民教育的你對於這個生死的素養才能具備說你要去諮商然後你要去簽署這個文件可是如果沒有公民的素養沒有這個教育生死的教育然後直接就叫說我上一個諮商一下然後就簽了"},{"start":564.564,"end":590.032,"text":"這個可能在大家可行性上有疑慮然後呢在楊秀怡在期刊台灣公共衛生雜誌2020年6月的文章講到住院的病患家屬對病人自主權立法的認知態度及日歷醫療決定的行為意向他指出90%以上受訪者願意進行ACP的諮商卻"},{"start":591.992,"end":606.38,"text":"這個很重要 我現在要告訴你們 這個東西我要講楊秀宇的這篇文章很重要他做了研究他在醫院 然後去做調查這個都是住院的病患的家屬了"},{"start":608.877,"end":628.616,"text":"90%以上去進行他們都願意這個預歷醫療照護諮商當他們都願意了以後進一階 進階到要簽AD了就是要預歷醫療決定了他從90%以上的接受度瞬間減半掉為51.25%"},{"start":633.662,"end":644.114,"text":"並不是沒有接受諮商 他去接受諮商了然後到要簽的時候 剩下51.25%然後楊繡宇認為說 這個是很有意義的發現 為什麼為什麼 這個是你們主導的政策 為什麼 你可以告訴我嗎保定你知道嗎 市長你知道嗎"},{"start":656.857,"end":678.23,"text":"其實這一段的落差其實就變成是說我覺得是在簽署自己的名字那個必須是一個commitment這件事情其實產生了因為我們其實有做過其他相關的研究其實也都是在具名要簽下去這件事情的時候在整個過程當中產生了一個質疑所以在願意"},{"start":679.13,"end":699.875,"text":"智商完之後真的要簽下去其實還有周圍家屬一些因素影響其實實際上面的簽署率在一些相關的研究我忘記是不是楊老師的研究其實都有一些學者提出來所以我要講說簽署率不要成為你們的KPI不要把病毒法的KPI定為簽署率"},{"start":701.324,"end":714.013,"text":"楊秀瑜說他這個跟國際許多的研究觀察都是相符合的就是許多人並不排斥思考死亡和臨終善終的醫療照護的問題"},{"start":716.454,"end":731.297,"text":"但是真正要簽署的時候可能會考慮很多有時候是不願意和家人討論或行諸於文字或者是像是類似一種法律契約何以如此 何以如此市長 何以如此我們看到這個現象了 但為什麼呢 為什麼呢因為我們要討論修法要讓這個法律更進階來討論它的問題發生在哪裡但何以如此啊"},{"start":746.082,"end":761.072,"text":"所以陳慧覺得是說今天在討論所謂的病毒這件事情我們一直覺得是說需要做的事情在民眾死亡勢能這個部分其實我們需要去提市長你講了你都沒有看其實非常重要的一個原因就是"},{"start":764.695,"end":784.189,"text":"因為此時此地和當時當地不同啦選擇生命末期的醫療是非常艱難的選擇不管事前有再多的準備預備但是到了醫療現場在生死關頭還是有很多的猶豫反覆捨不得如果"},{"start":785.049,"end":796.143,"text":"大家都在那裡天人交戰包括我自己就曾經經歷過我都知道我也準備了我也認為什麼是最好的可是當時到此時不一樣"},{"start":802.27,"end":817.687,"text":"所以這篇調查是受訪者都是家人目前都是在家戶病房的家屬對醫療現場都有第一手的經驗更能了解做決定的艱難"},{"start":819.309,"end":830.293,"text":"而且他們對ACP都持開放的態度卻只有一半願意簽署AD這個你們一定要記住第三也就是最關鍵的政策成效的評估大家覺得說"},{"start":835.295,"end":860.216,"text":"這個評估是不是要有研擬運作的模式設立了示範的中心追蹤AD的簽署來作為政策的里程碑但這個做法看起來沒問題但實務上的障礙是民眾真的不容易理解病毒法和安寧條例為何並存宣導團隊也重疊然後相對ACP跟AD的簽署率的低我剛剛講過DNR大家"},{"start":863.198,"end":870.491,"text":"都是簽署率非常非常的高的你只要給他簽 欸 病危了然後拒絕心胃復甦或衛生醫療大家都簽啦 十個有高的都有簽啦"},{"start":874.938,"end":903.471,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面其實這些議題我們都希望說在你的政策有效性的評估並不要用那種方法那現在講說持續的問題是要推動生死素養的教育和政策要回到臨終狀況現場以更周全的方式去評估成果部長你認為有哪些方法還可以再改善"},{"start":904.452,"end":915.053,"text":"這種評估的效果不要一味的以AD的簽署數為評估的指標嘛其實那個委員主持的重點"},{"start":916.531,"end":937.399,"text":"其實你在簽AD到最後在面臨實際上那個時候的時候是非常困難的當然你前面早一點我再講還有什麼指標你就回答我就好了指標委員的意思是臨床現狀嗎就是說到底這種這種病人自主無效醫療然後這什麼樣的狀況認為是你們醫療政策推動的比較好的指標的觀察什麼東西好那個請問一下"},{"start":945.9,"end":970.598,"text":"這邊的話就臨床部分的話我們會希望是說其實是要一起看什麼意思就是說在推動所謂的剛剛委員特別有垂詢是說如果只單就一個AD的簽署率其實是應該把DNR跟安寧的這邊其實是一起看這是第一件事第二件事情就是一些量性指標的部分的話我們可以在六個月內如果有使用就是"},{"start":971.618,"end":996.963,"text":"因為當你的終點越清楚的時候其實一些醫療介入的措施我們是希望他能夠有這樣的概念不管我的進入的路徑是從病毒法或者是從安寧緩和條例六個月內沒有有使用像這樣子安寧照護的服務的比例能夠增加這是我們希望未來你們的安寧病床都是你們沒有滿床嗎照你們剛才的想法沒有滿床但是其實我曾經被拜託是排不到床的"},{"start":998.039,"end":1018.048,"text":"他其實是有我曾經被拜託就說想要進去安寧病房都派不進去我要講的是說其實目前我們希望推動的在特別是在高齡少子社會裡面其實怎麼樣回到社區所以安寧共照然後居家安寧跟社區安寧我想的是這樣子啦市長你想的我直接跟你講我想什麼啦因為我覺得部長你剛才唱很多高調衛部部也唱很多高調什麼"},{"start":1026.952,"end":1031.617,"text":"給他照顧得很好有尊嚴不會痛苦就沒有人想要安樂死這個是唱很多高調啊你知道當在那一剎那的時候要多少經濟壓力當你們癌症治療的藥物設限這麼多標靶用藥設限那麼多然後要自費的話要花那麼多錢"},{"start":1046.994,"end":1051.255,"text":"你說要尊嚴 要照護好 你們連安寧病床可能都不夠然後呢 醫護 這個護理人員流失 關床 排不進去你們的照護品質不會好 那家人 古早人說孤單病不好走嘛那病人被人痛苦折磨 然後要有好的藥門檻那麼高 要自己自費買不起"},{"start":1071.396,"end":1083.261,"text":"所以難怪這個4月24台大公衛在講的是善終自主台灣民眾對醫師協助死亡的看法所以有這種狀況是有3992位然後進行這個死亡調查關於醫生協助死亡的調查研究這樣子"},{"start":1100.014,"end":1127.04,"text":"然後醫助死亡跟安樂死是不一樣的我們先講在這裡安樂死是醫生處理的可是醫助死亡是醫生協助而已讓受苦的病人加速離世如果我們的長照制度不好我們的照護品質不好如果病人的經濟能力不好如果我們健保的癌症藥物的給付不好你叫我們說沒有人會想要安樂死我告訴你現在台灣"},{"start":1128.34,"end":1136.046,"text":"很多生病的人包括我自己我都想要自己去自殺了如果有安樂死的話我會選擇安樂死為什麼 因為我剛剛講你講說好的什麼那個高調的那個情境在台灣目前不會存在而且在執行上理想上也不太會存在不太可能 因為資源有限因為人力耗盡在那裡因為大家都知道"},{"start":1156.431,"end":1178.351,"text":"無效的醫療再拖下去也是無效所以你說會有那種不想安樂死的我想大概對啦也有但是很多更多是想要安樂死的那在這種狀況裡面台大公衛的這份研究做了3992個將近4000個他依據死亡的支持度他設定了三種"},{"start":1179.392,"end":1200.279,"text":"三種 就癌症末期而且預期壽命有限 再活沒多久而且病人太痛苦了 像癌症末期86.2%的支持度都要求可以有醫助死亡那第二種 即便不是末期 但根本就沒有藥可醫而且身上有無法忍受的痛苦 如劍動人這種支持度79.6%"},{"start":1203.8,"end":1227.046,"text":"第三種病人嚴重喪失認知能力疾病無法治癒也沒有改善的方式如極重度的失智支持率有72%72.6%還有不分任何情境純粹就是你支不支持醫生可以協助民眾死亡的比例有67.6%所以這個台大公衛的學者呼籲了什麼他們呼籲什麼部長你知道嗎"},{"start":1235.939,"end":1263.038,"text":"我可以補充 他其實呼籲的其實是對死亡這件事情應該有更多的社會的對話對 保證妳要了解 妳自己知道 但是妳也要了解就是說 妳要建議社會跟政府要跟所有的社會的對話都要開始溝通要開始對話 甚至連這個醫治死亡都要開始討論啦"},{"start":1265.06,"end":1267.781,"text":"全台灣人 過半以上都支持大家就要開始討論 要你社會討論對不對 社會討論重不重要 保定非常重要那你們的次長為什麼為什麼你們的次長面對這樣的研究一出來你的處長怎麼說"},{"start":1287.998,"end":1295.8,"text":"安樂死 斷食善終是不對的他連斷食善終都不對了這不是我們的病主法嗎市長怎麼這麼說他說這兩者都不會成為衛福部的政策選項你是誰啊 你說了算喔社會對話 這是社會對話喔"},{"start":1311.738,"end":1320.291,"text":"不管是斷食善中或安樂食他的intention我問你啦你的病足法裡面有沒有包含斷食善中"},{"start":1321.365,"end":1345.879,"text":"那個不叫斷食善中那個是不要去使用不必要的人工營養水分我想委員今天的一席話真的是非常專業我真的是覺得很敬佩但是我必須要講清楚斷食善中你不給他在營養供給了不給他鼻胃管了不給他這個營養供給了你知道插一個鼻胃管病人是多痛苦對啊"},{"start":1346.96,"end":1352.887,"text":"那你有很多的方式你會好好的照顧他他就會吃很多東西他雖然有時候有那種"},{"start":1356.678,"end":1370.448,"text":"需要鼻胃管的還有進食能力的如果那種連吞嚥功能都喪失的吞嚥功能 譬如我舉個例子我現在不是跟你討論這個我是要告訴你你不要轉移焦點我是要告訴你說你的次長憑什麼他一個人說安樂時 斷食善終都不會成為衛福部的政策選項你們說可以"},{"start":1386.044,"end":1400.826,"text":"可以透過支持性或緩解性的醫療照顧減輕病人痛苦 但不贊同安樂死你講了支持性或緩解性的醫療照護真的是大家都可以得到這麼好的照顧嗎"},{"start":1402.691,"end":1406.072,"text":"百分之九十你的癌症用藥設限那麼多標靶用藥自費這麼貴然後家人家人也耗這麼多人家病人不願意了所以我沒有叫你藥喔我現在告訴你是醫師協助死亡這現在民意支持度這麼高的狀況"},{"start":1422.538,"end":1442.118,"text":"你應該要開啟社會對話 而甚至你要去研究相關的法律的制度對醫療的衝擊 對醫師的衝擊 然後相應的問題可能會是什麼你也要去回應學者的這個現象 到底問題產生在哪裡你應該去開啟社會溝通和對話"},{"start":1444.901,"end":1448.162,"text":"對不對 那有可能你一個次長就來講 不可能 那我沒有愛我都沒有愛 這樣就不用做了嗎我們幾十天來都一直在對話 那我想次長我問你醫師協助死亡的議題 你做過正式的政策評估或是跨部門討論嗎 或者是你委託研究過嗎它的倫理法律和醫療實務的可行性"},{"start":1471.99,"end":1482.644,"text":"會遇到什麼困難可行不可行你們做過嗎有沒有做過醫師誰是智商其實也是安樂死的一種我現在就是在講"},{"start":1486.17,"end":1496.941,"text":"醫師協助死亡的安樂死方式對 這個部分就是屬於在安樂死的一個範疇對 我在問你說社會溝通對話那這個部分必須要更多的社會對話來溝通那當我們目前的政策台大現在這份研究"},{"start":1505.45,"end":1517.275,"text":"我們在講P.A.D合法就是醫治死亡的這個P.A.D的政策P.A.D的意思P.A.DDying Assistant PhysicianPhysicianAssisted Dying"},{"start":1533.817,"end":1542.442,"text":"就跟你講PAD啦 我是要告訴這不重要啦我現在就是講喔 當台大的公衛拿出這樣的數據的時候你們有沒有做過任何政策的研議倫理 法律的 社會心理的你們都沒有做 一個處長一出來就跟人家說那都不可能 我們不愛 我們不接受那你現在是怎樣 像林淑芬講的沒有我自己吃到75歲 我自己去煮飯"},{"start":1563.325,"end":1591.404,"text":"你是要這樣子你知道我走出門 你知道多少人給我懲罰立委啊 你就趕快讓他安樂死 合法化你就趕快立這個法律 我告訴他什麼我不知道怎麼定這個法律啊整個社會溝通對話倫理的法律的社會心理的經濟的等等的生物上的我通通都沒有足夠的專業然後社會沒有對話"},{"start":1594.926,"end":1610.257,"text":"衛福部也從來不討論不委外研究沒有任何的政策研究我是要怎麼去產出一個法律啊你在這裡你到底你是跟你們處長一樣的立場是不是啦我就是在這裡問你你跟你們處長一樣就直接說我們反對安樂死絕對不要反安樂死你在這裡是要宣示這個政策嗎我們政策是一種開放的我現在講這個叫社會對話嗎社會對話是這樣的嗎"},{"start":1624.202,"end":1651.283,"text":"我們可以繼續來我今天不是在講病主法為什麼病主法的簽署率這麼低其中一個重要的原因就是民眾所想像的病主法所想像的安樂死的善終的概念跟這個法律落差太大了而民眾想要的很多民眾想要的當然也有很多民眾反對很多民眾想要的是真的是讓我好好的走吧善終安樂死"},{"start":1652.023,"end":1676.241,"text":"你最好是了解一下什麼叫一一社會對話溝通然後你最好去做一下研究好歹也做一下研究吧連這個都拒絕在這裡你都不做的話我只能說這個不但做國內的研究我們也做國際的研究做很多啊 paper在哪裡你的委外研究經費編在哪裡你的委外研究的計畫成果在哪裡"},{"start":1679.215,"end":1700.724,"text":"那另外就是就是有國內有很多學者都有做學者做的跟你政府做的有一樣嗎在這裡信口開河青菜公共那你為什麼一直你一直用台大的公衛學者做為一個政府你用我們好朋友楊秀儀教授的文章來談論那不是政府喔那是拿政府的錢的嗎"},{"start":1701.992,"end":1708.376,"text":"不管怎麼樣這也是當然的我現在講我這裡我監督的是叫做政府我們人民要的是有政府能溝通我這裡怎麼去問責於一個學者你怎麼政府把責任就推給所有學者做了這是叫做政府嗎甘良秀儀咧主導這個政策"},{"start":1726.505,"end":1736.568,"text":"我們當然在主導政策啊 但是我們要收集各方面的資訊不是喔 你要開啟 你是政府 你要去做研究不是只說學者研究一分 這樣就好了我現在不想聽骯髒 我要聽你政府你政府 你怎麼面對這個課題 怎麼面對這個議題怎麼面對人民有這個需求"},{"start":1751.499,"end":1763.349,"text":"尤其是在你們醫療制度都在這麼緊張瀕臨崩潰的邊緣啦更不要講問題多啦在講說你好好的照顧這個理想性不存在啦"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":479,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時19分）謝謝主席，還是請邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，今年正式邁入超高齡社會，每5人中就有1人是65歲以上，所以活得久大概已經不是很大的問題，但是要活得好。人難免生老病死嘛，其實不要說65歲以上的人，包括我自己，我跟朋友之間都說害怕生不如死，我自己見證過，我的父母他們都是中風的，躺在醫院很久，在這種狀況下，我也面臨過很多的情境，所以求善終並不是只有年紀大的人在想，對我來講，我也是如此。甚至我跟朋友之間開玩笑時也曾說，到了75歲的時候，如果沒有安樂死的法律的話，我要自己去自殺，我會告訴我的孩子說我是自主的，而且是很開心的，我願意這麼做的，希望他們不要情緒不好。我經常跟我兒子說，當我死亡的時候，你要給我環保葬，不要給我「放水流」，我的意思是說我不要水葬，我在講的是生和死的溝通，我經常告訴我的孩子我是怎麼想的，免得到那一天的時候他不知道母親怎麼想。","對於今天的修法，我必須要講的是，有的人希望放寬ACP的經費、ACP的執行場域及委任代理人的資格放寬等等。大家都講簽署率只有0.45%，只有10.3萬人完成簽署，但我還要你看到一個數字，這個數字不是只有10.3萬人、0.45%的簽署率，而是如果我問你，已經簽署且到最後真的有去執行的比率有多高？也就是說，已經簽署且真正落實簽署者意志的執行率有多高？"],["邱部長泰源：這個部分我想醫事司是有研究，不過我先跟委員做初步的報告，因為時間相當的短……"],["林委員淑芬：2019年到現在。"],["邱部長泰源：簽署到現在大概有70%……"],["林委員淑芬：有這麼高嗎？到最後真正執行率……"],["邱部長泰源：這是吻合率。"],["林委員淑芬：吻合率？那個是你們推估的，其實有人認為……"],["邱部長泰源：這是專家……"],["林委員淑芬：但這是推估的，其實大家都不認為執行率很高，所以顯然不是只有簽署人數的問題，即便簽署了，到最後執行的時候為什麼沒有辦法執行？大家都想要有尊嚴的善終，要拒絕無效的醫療，可是當走到那一步，比如我的母親在做DNR的時候我們都知道，可是真到那一刻要我們做決定的時候，我理性上都知道該怎麼做，我們全家人都知道該怎麼做，可是真到那一刻來的時候我們做不下去，做不下去啊！然後就這樣拖一拖，到什麼時候大家才說放棄了吧？是因為覺得他這樣拖下去太痛苦了，所以我們才說我們放棄吧！我是要告訴部長，從衛生政策來檢驗病主法當然還有再討論的空間，但是並不是只有簽署率多高，還包括執行上的障礙是什麼，而這個東西是透過這個法律可以解決的嗎？我想答案是否定的，這不是只有一個病主法就足夠的。","所以這種善終的概念，老實說，簽署率不高的原因還有一個，大家對病主法的想像是以為這是一個善終的、安樂死的概念，但其實不是的，根本不是的，當你真正去了解之後發現不是的，那個跟DNR差沒有很大，我認為DNR的簽署率很高，DNR的簽署率都很高，但DNR跟病主法的簽署內容並不是差異太大，老實說啦！","我們說要避免無效醫療、要善終，但是監察院在2011年其實有讓無效醫療和臨終關懷浮上檯面，他指出臨床上界定治療無效或者是何時讓安寧緩和醫療接手都沒有辦法明確定義。具體而言，國家透過法律保障和約束專業，但醫療行為屬專業自主，其內涵仰賴專業自律和主管機關的函釋。所以在這種狀況裡面，我們看到專業醫生的意見跟社會大眾期待所謂比較好的善終的這個手段，其實落差還是很大。善終的臨床情境雖然不是專科能擅自詮釋的，但是如果謹守專業自主，讓政策去導引，而不是不當的介入原本在醫病之間互相理解和治療狀態下的照護，這個一直都是修法的困境。","部長，在月旦醫事法報告裡面有一篇文章叫做徒法尚不足自行：從「病人自主權利法」反思善終政策，不曉得司長或是部長有沒有看過郭文華教授的這一篇文章？"],["劉司長越萍：沒有，我只看到那個summary，沒有仔細看裡面的內文。"],["林委員淑芬：好。他指出病主法的困局其原因固然有民眾的誤解和醫界的被動，但不可諱言有部分來自病主法的理想性。生命自主需要保障，照護需要賦權，但是一般人並不容易理解這樣抽象的概念，更不要說在澈底了解後所做的治療選擇。但我要講的是，其實他的看法我有部分認同，但有部分不一定認同，我覺得剛好相反，很多人是相對的了解生命的價值和意義，而想要選擇一種善終的方式，但是偏偏他所期待的是病主法這部法律裡面不能給的、給不了的。","從衛生政策的角度以外，我們看到郭文華教授有指出幾個盲點：第一個是宣導與現實的落差，善終被認為可以創造病患無痛苦、讓醫師減少臨床壓力，然後大家就說這樣可以使健保資源不浪費，因為無效醫療就是浪費嘛，大家可能覺得是這樣，可是沒有釐清政策效果的優先順序，或者是為什麼要由病人以自主之名啟動，要一般人立即理解善終，主動尋求理解AD與簽署，似乎陳義過高啦！第二個是諮商的政策門檻，他覺得ACP是法律程序，諮商行為受到法律規範，AD是法律文件，在沒有相關素養教育的配套下，以具有法律性質的醫療諮商扛起公民教育的責任，可行性上或有疑慮。本來諮商是專業的，本來諮商是沒有法律責任的，可是現在必須透過諮商這個過程來建立法律的責任，然後才能去簽AD，那麼這個諮商的過程，大家去都可能是「速成法」，可是大家對這個概念應該是先有公民教育對於生死的素養，才能具備先要去諮商，再去簽署這個文件；如果沒有公民的素養、沒有生死的教育，就直接去諮商，然後就簽署了，可能大家在可行性上會有疑慮。","楊秀儀教授在2020年6月發表在「台灣公共衛生雜誌」期刊的文章提到，住院的病患家屬對病人自主權利法的認知、態度及預立醫療決定的行為意向，指出90%以上受訪者願意進行ACP的諮商。我要告訴你們，楊秀儀教授這篇文章所做的研究很重要，她在醫院所調查的受訪對象，這些都是住院病患的家屬，他們有90%以上都願意預立醫療照護諮商，當他們都願意了以後，進階到要簽署AD，也就是要預立醫療決定，卻從90%以上的接受度瞬間減半掉到51.25%，所以並不是沒有接受諮商，是他去接受諮商了，但到要簽署的時候僅剩下51.25%，楊秀儀教授認為這個是很有意義的發現，為什麼？這個是你們主導的政策，你可以告訴我為什麼嗎？部長知道嗎？司長知道嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：我覺得這一段的落差是在簽署自己的名字，必須是commitment這件事情所產生的落差。我們其實有做過其他相關的研究，也都是在具名要簽下去這件事情的時候，在整個過程當中產生了質疑，所以在願意諮商完之後，要真的簽下去時，還是有受周圍家屬一些因素影響，實際上的簽署率，在一些相關的研究，我忘記是不是楊老師的研究，其實都有一些學者提出一些……"],["林委員淑芬：所以我要提的是簽署率不要成為你們的KPI，不要把簽署率訂為病主法的KPI。楊秀儀說這個跟國際許多的研究觀察都是相符合的，也就是許多人並不排斥思考死亡和臨終善終醫療照護的問題，但是真正要簽署的時候，可能會考慮很多，有時候是不願意和家人討論或形諸於文字，或者像是類似一種法律契約。何以如此？司長何以如此？我們看到這個現象了，但為什麼呢？為什麼呢？"],["劉司長越萍：我覺得……"],["林委員淑芬：如果我們要討論修法，要讓這個法律更進階來討論它的問題發生在哪裡，但何以如此啊？"],["劉司長越萍：所以今天在討論所謂病主的這件事情，我們才會一直覺得需要做的事情，在民眾死亡失能這個部分，其實是我們需要提昇的。"],["林委員淑芬：司長剛講的，你都沒有在看，其實非常重要的原因是，很簡單啦！一般人也都聽得懂，因為此時此地和當時當地不同啦！選擇生命末期的醫療是非常艱難的選擇，不管事前有再多的準備及預備，但是到了醫療現場，在生死關頭還是有很多的猶豫、反覆、捨不得。如果大家都在那裡天人交戰……包括我自己就曾經經歷過，我都知道、我也準備了、我也認為什麼是最好的，可是當時到此時不一樣、不一樣。這篇調查的受訪者都是家人，目前都是在加護病房的家屬，對醫療現場都有第一手的經驗，更能了解做決定的艱難，而且他們對ACP都持開放的態度，卻只有一半願意簽署AD，這個你們一定要記住。","第三個，最關鍵是政策成效的評估，大家覺得這個評估是不是要有研擬運作的模式，設立示範的中心及追蹤AD的簽署，以作為政策的里程碑？雖然這個作法看起來沒問題，但實務上的障礙是民眾真的不容易理解病主法和安寧條例為何並存，宣導團隊也重疊，然後相對於ACP跟AD的低簽署率，我剛剛講過的DNR，這簽署率是非常非常的高，只要給他簽署病危了，然後拒絕心肺復甦或維生醫療，這大家都會簽，十個中有九個都會簽。","所以在這種狀況裡，這些議題我們都希望在你的政策有效性的評估，不要用那種方法，現在講的持續問題是要推動生死素養的教育和政策，要回到臨終照護現場，以更周全的方式評估成果。部長認為有哪些方法還可以再改善這種評估的效果？不要一昧地以AD的簽署數作為評估的指標。"],["邱部長泰源：委員指出了重點，你簽AD到最後實際上面臨的那個時候是非常困難的，當然你前面早一點……"],["林委員淑芬：我在問還有什麼指標，你就回答我就好了。"],["邱部長泰源：指標？委員指的意思是臨床現況嗎？"],["林委員淑芬：就是這種病人自主無效醫療，在這樣的狀況，你們會認為是醫療政策推動的比較好的觀察指標？"],["邱部長泰源：好，請司長回答。"],["劉司長越萍：就臨床部分的話，我們會希望是要一起看，什麼意思呢？就是在推動所謂的剛剛委員特別有提到，如果只單就一個AD的簽署率，其實應該是把DNR跟安寧的部分一起看，這第一個；第二個是一些量性指標的部分，我們可以在6個月內如果有使用……因為當你的終點越清楚的時候，其實一些醫療介入的措施，我們是希望它能夠有這樣概念，不管進入的路徑是從病主法或者從安寧緩和醫療條例，6個月內有使用像這樣子安寧照護服務的比例能夠增加，這會是我們希望未來擴充的……"],["林委員淑芬：你們的安寧病床沒有滿床嗎？照你們剛才講法。"],["劉司長越萍：沒有滿床，而且有……"],["林委員淑芬：但是我曾經被拜託過，是排不到床耶！"],["劉司長越萍：其實也是有……"],["林委員淑芬：我曾經被拜託耶！就是想要進去安寧病房都排不進去。"],["劉司長越萍：目前我們希望推動的特別是在高齡少子社會裡要怎麼樣回到社區，所以安寧共照、居家安寧及社區安寧是我們推動的目標。"],["林委員淑芬：我想的是這樣子啦！司長，我直接跟你講我的想法，因為我覺得部長剛才唱很多高調，衛福部也唱很多高調，什麼給他照顧得很好、有尊嚴、不會痛苦，就沒有人想要安樂死，這個是唱很多高調啦！你知道當在那一剎那的時候，要承受多少經濟壓力，你們癌症治療的藥物設限這麼多、標靶用藥設限那麼多，然後自費要花那麼多錢，你說要尊嚴、要照護好，你們連安寧病床可能都不夠，然後這些護理人員的流失、關床及排不進去，你們的照護品質是不會好的。古人說：「久長病，無孝子」，病人本人痛苦折磨，要有好的藥，門檻那麼高，要自己自費卻買不起！難怪今年4月24日臺大公衛發表的研究在講「善終自主：臺灣民眾對醫師協助死亡的看法」，有3,992位成人進行關於醫生協助死亡的調查研究，醫助死亡跟安樂死是不一樣的，安樂死是醫生處理的，可是醫助死亡是醫生協助而已，讓受苦的病人加速離世。如果我們的長照制度不好、我們的照護品質不好、病人的經濟能力不好、我們健保癌症藥物的給付不好，你跟我們說沒有人會想要安樂死！我告訴你，現在臺灣很多生病的人，包括我自己，我都想要自己去自殺了，如果有安樂死的話，我會選擇安樂死。為什麼？因為我剛剛講，你說好的什麼……那個高調的情境，在臺灣目前不會存在，而且在執行上及理想上也不太會存在，不太可能，因為資源有限，因為人力耗盡在那裡，因為大家都知道無效的醫療再拖下去也是無效。所以你說會有那種不想安樂死的，我想大概……對啦，也有，但是更多是想要安樂死的。在這種狀況裡面，臺大公衛的這份研究做了3,992個，將近四千個，他們針對醫助死亡的支持度設定了三種，就是癌症末期而且預期壽命有限，再活沒多久，而且病人太痛苦了，像癌症末期，86.2%的支持度，都要求可以有醫助死亡；第二種，即便不是末期，但根本就沒有藥可醫，而且身上有無法忍受的痛苦，如漸凍人這種，支持度79.6%；第三種，病人嚴重喪失認知能力，疾病無法治癒，也沒有改善的方式，如極重度的失智，支持率有72.6%；還有不分任何情境，純粹就是你支不支持醫生可以協助民眾死亡的比例有67.6%，所以臺大公衛的學者呼籲什麼，部長，你知道嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：我可不可以補充？其實他們呼籲的是針對死亡這件事情，應該有更多的社會的對話。"],["林委員淑芬：對，部長你要了解，司長知道，但是你也要了解。就是說你要建議社會跟政府，所有的社會對話都要開始溝通，要開始對話，甚至連醫助死亡都要開始討論，全臺灣人過半以上都支持，大家就要開始討論，要社會討論，對不對？社會討論重不重要？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：非常重要，已經在……"],["林委員淑芬：那為什麼你們的次長面對這樣的研究一出來……你們的次長怎麼說？呂建德怎麼說？他說安樂死、斷食善終是不對的，他連斷食善終都說不對了，這不是我們的病主法嗎？你的次長怎麼這麼說？他說這兩者都不會成為衛福部的政策選項，你是誰啊？你說了算喔？社會對話，這社會對話喔？"],["邱部長泰源：不管是斷食善終或安樂死，它都intention想要縮短病人生病……"],["林委員淑芬：我問你啦，你的病主法裡面有沒有包含斷食善終？"],["邱部長泰源：那個不叫斷食善終，那個是不要使用不必要的人工營養、水份，我想委員今天的一席話真的是非常專業，我真的很敬佩，但是我必須要講清楚，斷食善終跟不給他人工……"],["林委員淑芬：你不再給他營養供給了……"],["邱部長泰源：那是不給他額外的。"],["林委員淑芬：不給他鼻胃管了，不給他營養供給了……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，你知道插一個鼻胃管，病人是多痛苦？"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！"],["邱部長泰源：你有很多的方式，可以好好的照顧他，他可以吃很多東西，他雖然有時候……"],["林委員淑芬：蛤？有那種需要鼻胃管還有進食能力的？如果那種連吞嚥功能都喪失的咧？"],["邱部長泰源：吞嚥功能，我舉個例子，我有……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在不是跟你討論這個，我是要告訴你……"],["邱部長泰源：我必須要很嚴肅講這個問題……"],["林委員淑芬：你不要轉移焦點！我是要告訴你，憑什麼你的次長他一個人說安樂死、斷食善終都不會成為衛福部的政策選項？你們說可以透過支持性或緩解性的醫療照顧，減輕病人痛苦，但不贊同安樂死，你講的支持性或緩解性的醫療照護，真的是大家都可以得到這麼好的照顧嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：95%的癌痛可以得到緩解。"],["林委員淑芬：你的癌症用藥設限那麼多，標靶用藥自費這麼貴，然後家人也耗這麼多，人家病人不願意了，所以我沒有叫你要，我現在是告訴你，醫師協助死亡在現在民意支持度這麼高的狀況下，你應該要開啟社會對話，甚至要去研究相關的法律制度、對醫療的衝擊、對醫師的衝擊，然後相應的問題可能會是什麼，你也要去回應學者，這個現象到底問題在哪裡，你應該去開啟社會溝通和對話，對不對？怎麼可能你們一個次長就來說不可能，我們都不要，這樣都不用做了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們幾十年來都一直在對話，我想次長的意思……"],["林委員淑芬：那我問你醫師協助死亡的議題，你做過正式的政策評估或跨部門討論嗎？或者是你委託研究過嗎？它的倫理、法律和醫療實務的可行性會遇到什麼困難？可行不可行？你們做過嗎？有沒有做過？"],["邱部長泰源：醫師協助自殺其實也是安樂死的一種。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在就是在講醫師協助死亡的安樂死方式。"],["邱部長泰源：對，這個部分就是屬於安樂死的範疇。"],["林委員淑芬：對，我在問你說社會溝通對話……"],["邱部長泰源：這部分必須要更多的社會對話來溝通，但我們目前的政策是推行安寧緩和醫療……"],["林委員淑芬：臺大現在這份研究，我們在講PAD合法，就是醫助死亡這個PAD的政策。"],["邱部長泰源：PAS嗎？physician-assisted suicide的意思嗎？"],["林委員淑芬：PAD的意思physician-assisted dying，就跟你講PAD。這不重要啦！我現在就是講，當臺大的公衛拿出這樣的數據的時候，你們有沒有做過任何政策的研議？倫理、法律、社會心理的，你們都沒有做，一個次長一出來就跟人家說，那都不可能，我們不要，我們不接受，你們現在是怎樣？不然，像林淑芬講的，我活到75歲，我自己去自殺？你知道我走出門，有多少人跟我陳情？「立委啊！你們就去讓安樂死合法化，趕快去立一個這樣的法律。」我跟他說什麼，你知道嗎？我要怎麼跟他說，你知道嗎？我說我不知道怎麼訂這個法律。整個社會溝通對話，倫理的、法律的、社會心理的、經濟的、生物上的，我通通沒有足夠的專業，然後社會沒有對話，衛福部也從來不討論，不委外研究，沒有任何的政策研究，我是要怎麼去產出一個法律？你們在這裡是跟你們次長一樣的立場，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：研究的paper很多啦！"],["林委員淑芬：我就是在這裡問你，你跟你們次長一樣，就直接說我們反對安樂死，絕對不要安樂死，你在這裡是要宣示這個政策嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們的政策是開放的，但是我必須跟委員報告……"],["林委員淑芬：現在這個叫社會對話嗎？社會對話是這樣的嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們可以繼續來對話。"],["林委員淑芬：我今天不是在講病主法，為什麼病主法的簽署率這麼低？其中一個重要的原因就是民眾所想像的安樂死、善終的概念，跟這個法律落差太大了，而民眾想要的，很多民眾想要的，當然也有很多民眾反對，很多民眾想要的是真的讓我好好的走吧！善終、安樂死。你最好了解一下什麼叫社會對話溝通，然後你最好去做一下研究，好歹也做一下研究吧！連這個都拒絕，在這裡你說不做的話，我只能說……"],["邱部長泰源：這個不但做國內的研究，我們也做國際的研究，做很多。"],["林委員淑芬：好，paper在哪裡？你的委外研究經費編在哪裡？你的委外研究計畫成果在哪裡？"],["邱部長泰源：國內有很多學者都有做。"],["林委員淑芬：學者做的跟政府做的一樣嗎？在這裡信口開河！隨便說說！"],["邱部長泰源：那你為什麼一直……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在說的是作為一個政府……"],["邱部長泰源：一直引用臺大公衛學者、我的好朋友楊秀儀教授的文章來討論呢？"],["林委員淑芬：那不是政府哦！那是拿政府的錢的嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：不管怎麼樣，這也是當然……很多都是國科會的錢。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在講，我在這裡我監督的叫做政府，我們人民要的是「有政府、能溝通」，我怎麼去問責於一個學者？"],["邱部長泰源：我們是在以專業解決問題。"],["林委員淑芬：政府怎麼把責任就推給說有學者做了，這叫做政府嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們尊重專業學者的研究結果。"],["林委員淑芬：難道是楊秀儀在主導這個政策嗎？是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然在主導政策啊！但是我們要蒐集各方面的資料。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要叫你……不是喔！你要花錢，你是政府，你要去做研究，不是只有學者研究一份，這樣就好了。"],["邱部長泰源：不是一份啦，很多份啦！"],["林委員淑芬：我現在不要聽學者，我要聽你政府，政府怎麼面對這個課題？怎麼面對這個議題？怎麼面對人民有這個需求？尤其是你們醫療制度都在這麼緊張、瀕臨崩潰的邊緣，更不要講問題很多，再講你好好的照顧，這個理想性不存在啦！"],["主席：好，謝謝，謝謝林委員、謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝林委員指教，我們一起努力。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請黃秀芳委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","莊瑞雄","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳培瑜","楊曜","陳瑩","涂權吉","陳菁徽"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；二、委員劉建國等\n16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利\n法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00007"}}},{"id":"160886","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160886","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc0df220fc863d202fa1fb26350580dc1695144d4d67ecd09c160660e2fbd13dbfe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:29:50 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各位部會首長那麼因為這次的國安法的修正零零總總那麼如果按照我們現在各版本來看到的那麼我們做了一下了解"},{"start":42.947,"end":61.112,"text":"未來恐怕包含下載向大陸的手遊或者是參加這個什麼淘寶啊或者他們網站的一些雙11的活動還有呢未來和大陸的這個只要跟他們的官方有關的活動甚至包含比如我們台北市的雙城論壇或者是啊你所謂針對不特定人來發展組織啊"},{"start":67.874,"end":90.593,"text":"就是他等于说有交付再交付那比如说这位这个盛楚英这位助理已经涉及了他涉嫌供迭那只要有跟他有所接触的都有可能违反相关的这个国安法如果按照现在的各个版本可以算是一个包山包海"},{"start":91.414,"end":118.434,"text":"然后对非常多的社团对非常多的个人可能他不小心他就触法而且违反的是相关的国安法那我想请教一下那么但是我们这样一个包山包海的国安法那请问一下我们的主管机关到底是哪一个主管机关我想请问一下陆委会我们是国安法的主管机关吗"},{"start":119.933,"end":138.999,"text":"報告委員 陸委會不是主管機關 這個國安法的主管機關是行政院是行政院 是行政院所以目前如果相關的 就是行政院相關要制定相關法律的是包含原來我們所查到資料 法務部是嘛 對不對"},{"start":140.018,"end":150.467,"text":"跟委員報告因為那個國安法非常多條文不同的條文是設主管不同目前是內政部法務部跟國防部都有三個單位三個單位好那我現在的問題就是說"},{"start":156.111,"end":174.513,"text":"這個國安法我剛剛講了它橫跨這麼多跟我們人民跟社團這麼多的相關的權利義務的事情而在這次國安法的修正裡面還包含了一些資通訊還有一些國家的重要的核心技術國家的這個相關的甚至商業機密"},{"start":175.754,"end":201.68,"text":"那所以我想请问一下如果说法务部能不能告诉我那刚才讲就说目前相关修法国防部内政部以及法务部是不是显然已经不足了我刚才讲说他很快的至少我现在看起来经济部要放进去还有受发部变得也很重要所以我们现在只有三个部会是不是显然不足"},{"start":202.3,"end":225.585,"text":"這個只是法令的這個延期的時候的幕僚機關那正如剛才我所說裡面的條文據假設涉及到各部會其他的業務的時候當然也都要共同來研議來處理所以並不是只有單一的主管機關來做決定這樣子所以現在看起來那所以你們還是在架構上還是維持三個部會而已嗎基本上是行政院來統籌"},{"start":226.735,"end":247.188,"text":"好現在我想請問一下因為剛才也有很多委員問到因為這麼多的國安法的修正包山包海那麼到底會不會有相關的行政院的版本我聽之前是說會提出相關行政院的版本是我們在研擬中好那麼大概什麼時候才會提出來呢"},{"start":248.098,"end":266.976,"text":"跟委員報告因為就誠如這一次這個各委員提案的這個所涉及的層面跟議題還有範圍都很廣所以目前行政院統籌其實也是各該的業務的主管機關都會加入了一起來解釋所以期程上面目前還沒有這個很明確但是我們都已經在進行作業當中"},{"start":267.557,"end":295.936,"text":"目前都還沒有所以我要講的就是說其實國安法比如說我們最近有很多的共諜案那相關你確實有從事洩漏國家機密交付相關的機密的資料給對岸不管是個人或者是政府機關或相關的那個機構這個部分在國安法裡面我們都支持但是我剛才特別講到因為這些很多相關的語意不明的時候"},{"start":297.117,"end":309.853,"text":"會 我們擔心會傷及無辜啦最怕就是傷及無辜那麼我們很多民眾他們平常已經約定俗成或者他們平常就在做的事情那動不動他就會"},{"start":310.885,"end":332.541,"text":"就會觸犯了國安法好那最後一點時間不好意思容我問一下我們的副主委梁副主委就在這次修法裡面特別有提到一些就是跟大陸對岸的就是它的相關的活動有相關的禁止您個人支持這些委員的版本嗎"},{"start":334.898,"end":363.462,"text":"我們是支持要把參與組織的部分要加進去因為過去有很多案例是發起人被判刑但是他發起這個組織加入他組織的人都沒事譬如說像前陸軍軍官向德恩這個案子向德恩很有明顯的甚至還拍影片拍效忠影片加入這個共諜組織但是最後法院沒辦法判他"},{"start":364.718,"end":366.625,"text":"因為他只是參與 他不是發起人"},{"start":367.694,"end":376.916,"text":"最後法院是判他用貪污之罪條例那大家就覺得很荒謬所以這個部分我們認為是要動要堵起來好那我請問一下因為這裡面的條文裡面有包含任何人不得為境外敵對勢力之成員或其參與其活動的就是說也不能夠參與那我想請問我現在是具體的請問那麼我們現在在兩岸之間譬如說在每一年都會舉辦的雙城論壇"},{"start":397.802,"end":403.046,"text":"雙城論壇如果按照這個條文變成連雙城論壇都不能夠參加你覺得這個合理嗎如果說我們今天國安法就是無限上綱道只要是對岸境外敵對勢力他們有參與的或者是他們也有共同發起的然後這個活動我們都不能參加那麼如果像以雙城論壇來說的話它應該也被禁止了"},{"start":425.93,"end":448.496,"text":"並不會啦 因為我們要先看這個組織到底是什麼樣的也就是說它是受中共教唆或是中共派遣之人所在台灣成立的組織然後這個東西我們才會認為說它是非法組織那非法組織的話才有參與加入或是活動的問題因為時間的關係 所以我要確定一件事情"},{"start":449.176,"end":473.386,"text":"就是譬如說在整個的國安法的修正的過程而且之後不至於去影響這些屬於正常的交流的活動是不是因為我們參與的也很多我認為是不會我認為是不會因為其實現在國安法的這個運用的範圍其實非常低的我們大部分還是運用我們的兩岸人民關係條例行政法的部分"},{"start":473.846,"end":494.394,"text":"那因為國安法是刑法的問題所以它其實老實講它的運用範圍是比較窄所以它應該更加嚴謹對不對它應該更加的嚴謹因為它確實刑法的部分不要動不動就入人於罪我覺得這一點是應該是最高的指導原則是 我也放心不會謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":885,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時29分）謝謝主席，我請陸委會副主委還有法務部次長。"],["主席：好，副主委跟次長。"],["王委員鴻薇：國防部是處長來，是不是？"],["主席：好，國防部。"],["王委員鴻薇：那內政部長官是司長？"],["主席：好，內政部。"],["王委員鴻薇：各位部會首長，因為這次國安法的修正林林總總，若按照現在各版本所看到的，我們做了一下了解，未來恐怕包含下載大陸的手遊，或者是參加淘寶或者他們網站一些雙十一的活動，還有未來只要跟他們的官方有關的活動，甚至比如臺北市的雙城論壇，或者是所謂針對不特定人來發展組織，就是等於有交付、再交付，譬如說盛礎纓這位助理涉嫌共諜案，只要有跟他有所接觸的都有可能違反相關的國安法，如果按照現在的各個版本，可以算是一個包山包海，然後對非常多的社團、對非常多的個人來說，可能他不小心就會觸法，而且違反的是相關的國安法。我想請教一下，我們這樣一個包山包海的國安法的主管機關到底是哪一個？我想請問一下陸委會是國安法的主管機關嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，陸委會不是主管機關，國安法的主管機關是行政院。"],["王委員鴻薇：是行政院？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是行政院。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以目前如果相關的，就是行政院要制定相關法律的是包含……因為原來我們所查到資料，法務部是嘛，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，因為國安法條文非常多，所以不同的條文事涉主管不同，目前是內政部、法務部跟國防部都有。"],["王委員鴻薇：三個單位。"],["黃次長世杰：看處理的是哪個條文。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，三個單位。我現在的問題是，我剛才講了，這個國安法橫跨這麼多跟人民、社團相關權利義務的事情，而在這次國安法的修正裡面，還包含了一些資通訊還有一些國家重要的核心技術，跟國家相關的……甚至是商業機密，所以我想請問一下，法務部能不能告訴我，針對剛才講的目前相關修法，國防部、內政部以及法務部是不是顯然已經不足了？我剛剛說它是橫跨的，至少我現在看起來，要把經濟部放進去啊！還有數發部變得也很重要，所以我們現在只有3個部會是不是顯然不足？"],["黃次長世杰：這個只是法令研析時候的幕僚機關，誠如剛剛委員所說，裡面的條文假設涉及到各部會其他業務的時候，當然也都要共同來研議、來處理，所以並不是只有單一的主管機關來做決定。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以現在看起來，你們在架構上還是維持3個部會而已嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：基本上是由行政院來統籌。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，現在我想請問一下，因為剛才也有很多委員問到，因為這麼多的國安法的修正，包山包海，到底會不會有相關的行政院版本？我之前聽到說會提出相關行政院的版本。"],["黃次長世杰：是，我們在研擬中。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那麼大概什麼時候才會提出來呢？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，誠如這一次各委員提案所涉及的層面跟議題還有範圍都很廣，所以目前由行政院統籌，但各該業務的主管機關也都會加入一起來解釋，所以期程上面目前還沒有很明確，但是我們都已經在進行作業當中。"],["王委員鴻薇：目前都還沒有？"],["黃次長世杰：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我要講的是，比如說我們最近有很多的共諜案，倘若他確實有從事洩漏國家機密、交付相關的機密資料給對岸，不管是個人或者是政府機關或相關的機構，這個部分在國安法裡面我們都支持，但是我剛才特別講到，因為這些相關內容很多都語意不明的時候，我們擔心會傷及無辜，最怕就是傷及無辜，很多是民眾平常已經約定俗成或者他們平常就在做的事情，他動不動就會觸犯了國安法。","最後一點時間，不好意思，容我問一下梁副主委。在這次修法裡面，特別有提到對於一些跟大陸對岸相關的活動有相關的禁止，您個人支持這些委員的版本嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們是支持要把參與組織的部分加進去，因為過去有很多案例是發起人被判刑，但是他發起這個組織後加入他組織的人都沒事，譬如說前陸軍軍官向德恩這個案子，向德恩有明顯的……甚至還拍效忠影片，加入共諜組織，但是最後法院沒辦法判他，因為他只是參與，他不是發起人，最後法院是用貪污治罪條例判他，大家就覺得很荒謬，所以這個部分我們認為洞要堵起來。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那我請問一下，因為這條文裡面有包含任何人不得為境外敵對勢力之成員或參與其活動，即也不能夠參與，我現在是具體的請問，我們現在在兩岸之間，譬如說每一年都會舉辦的雙城論壇，如果按照這個條文，變成連雙城論壇都不能夠參加，你覺得這個合理嗎？如果今天國安法是無限上綱，只要是對岸境外敵對勢力有參與的，或者他們也有共同發起的，然後這個活動我們都不能參加，像以雙城論壇來說的話，它應該也被禁止囉？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：並不會，因為我們要先看這個組織到底是什麼樣的，也就是說，看是受中共教唆或是中共派遣之人所在臺灣成立的組織，我們才會認為這個東西是非法組織，非法組織的話才有參與、加入或是活動的問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為時間的關係，所以我要確定一件事情，在整個國安法的修正過程，之後不至於去影響這些屬於正常的交流活動，是不是？因為我們參與的也很多，譬如說……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，我認為是不會，因為現在國安法的運用範圍其實是非常低的，我們大部分還是運用兩岸人民關係條例的行政罰部分，因為國安法是刑法的問題，所以老實講，它的運用範圍比較窄。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以它應該更加嚴謹，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：它應該更加的嚴謹，因為它涉及刑罰的部分，不要動不動就入人於罪，我覺得這一點應該是最高的指導原則。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是，委員放心，不會的，謝謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝。"],["主席：登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員林楚茵、陳冠廷、黃建賓、丁學忠所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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楊全元發言 邀請刑事組刑事警察局刑事警察局好 請刑事警察局嘿 請刑事警察局"},{"start":19.457,"end":34.207,"text":"本席今天主要要來跟你討論這個打詐成績單因為行政院打詐中心在4月28號他有發布打詐成績單他聲稱了財產的損失下降了48.8%"},{"start":37.036,"end":59.395,"text":"那這個是要穩定民心因為大家現在在社會上都說這個詐騙的很多各種的方式都有所以讓人民非常的心生恐懼而且方式一變再變一直有各種的不同的方式所以讓民眾非常的不安心甚至有的連聽電話都會怕"},{"start":61.457,"end":83.189,"text":"現在看LINE啊 看臉書啊 被盜用啊大家不知道真的是假的 還是假的是真的 還是真的是真的讓人民不安心所以我們全力的支持這個打詐但是根據民間PTT 鄉民隊 警政署這邊打詐儀表版的公開數據來分析"},{"start":85.45,"end":105.917,"text":"那麼他分析了呢 實際上三個月 三月份呢詐騙案件的這個數額與金額呢 皆是上個月就比照上個月 他都是大幅增加所以在這樣的一個情況之下詐騙集團的月收 月營收 甚至有突破70億元單日超過了2億元 單日就超過了2億元"},{"start":111.039,"end":133.973,"text":"所以呢 在這樣的情況之下 台灣的奇蹟呢是讓人家覺得很奇怪 而且民眾不安心所以本席在這邊請教副局長 也就是民間的認知跟你們所努力的 這一些的情況 似乎有很大的落差那在這個情況之下呢 到底它主要的原因是什麼 請教說明"},{"start":135.782,"end":160.244,"text":"謝謝委員的關心 那這一點跟委員做報告那我們打炸的確對國人同胞造成很大的傷害那如果從數據 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次長有請請次長好 請台委員好次長早安好這個今天要審查民進黨諸多委員提出來的這個國家安全法的修正草案當然我們沒有什麼好因為什麼政治的立場大家就畏反對而反對我覺得這是沒有必要的但是我覺得在立法"},{"start":24.061,"end":49.746,"text":"討論的過程之中要力求周延也就是說這些法律的原則性這些東西要把控清楚內容上要做充分的討論那我舉一個援引一個台大法學院的教授也是現在我們的政務委員林明新先生他在2023年的12月在國家安全與行政管制一文中他寫文章投稿就有提到管制的具體目的何在為了避免哪一種涉及國家安全的問題或者是公共秩序的破壞"},{"start":50.586,"end":74.509,"text":"行政管制不應該突然維護公共秩序甚至口號式的宣稱國家安全考慮而必須非常具體的指出問題在哪裡然後你才有管制的手段我想他那篇文章的脈絡寫得非常非常的清楚那他在文章中有提到國安的立法其實要討論兩個面向第一叫積極的面向也就是手段跟目的的合理關聯我要管制哪些事要非常明確的我要怎麼樣的手段可以明確的"},{"start":75.149,"end":101.52,"text":"解決這樣子的一個問題要有明確性的關聯第二要符合至少消極面向所謂的消極面向就是避免去違反憲法的一些原則包含成績化法律保留原則法律明確性原則平等原則比例原則信賴保護原則等等這本席並不是法律專家但次長你是我想請教一下以你目前看這些委員的提案版本他們有沒有符合林明熙政委在文章裡面提到的積極面向跟消極面向"},{"start":102.569,"end":129.227,"text":"跟委員報告我想委員也都已經有事先閱讀過本部跟司法院分別就法律的專業來對這次委員所提出來特別是關於刑罰的部分我們一定要針對他的比例原則跟過程要見的明確性跟他的目的關係我們都有做相關的論述那我想這個我們的原則就是因為其實賴總統宣誓之後行政院也已經啟動這個國安相關法定各級主管機關"},{"start":130.188,"end":158.297,"text":"都要來全面來檢視所以我們目前在研議相關的修法作業當中那就今天所討論的國安法特別是就這個參與組織這個發展組織將參與組織這個漏洞把它補起來以及關於這個退伍退伏的這個部分那這兩個部分我們已經在具體研議當中所以我們今天的這個意見也提供給大院在審查各委員提案的時候來做參考我想裡面都有一些可以再斟酌討論的地方"},{"start":160.106,"end":179.574,"text":"所以您的意思是說我有看到我有看到你的報告大部分的結論都是見景在昨啦也就是說大家在商量一下因為沒有問題的部分我們不會講啦我們就把有問題的部分寫出來幾乎每一條其實都有在考量的空間對不對大部分都有好那我剛剛其實聽其他委員的時候我大概也知道說可能會有院版對不對那請問部長大概院版這個時間你們抓的時間點是什麼時候"},{"start":181.395,"end":200.827,"text":"目前因為裡面有一些部分會有跨機關要來整合協調配套的部分所以這個由行政院在統籌辦理當中那我們現在在進行可能汽車的部分可能會會不會再拆分或是說會再提出幾個你們會在這個會期裡面有正式的願板出來嗎我們會盡快希望"},{"start":202.028,"end":231.138,"text":"好 自然我希望喔 這不管是我們也許等院版出來有一個好的母體之後本席是非常非常希望 因為這是知識體大因為我今天跟您討論的是法理上面那法理上面你比較專業那我希望說有很多的法學專家因為這條 這個是試射到政府管制權限的問題嘛我今天如果修國安法以國安為由然後我讓政府有擴大的權力那到底那條紅線要劃在哪裡什麼樣才是最適切的我想這是社會大眾要共同關心的這個也不能只有朝野立委表達意見我們希望有法學的專家很多學界的這個"},{"start":231.638,"end":249.706,"text":"意見可以透過公聽會等等的方式來做處理但沒關係既然今天這個法務部這邊的官方立場是很多條文要申請再著要再商量那未來也會有所謂的願版那我們就希望願版趕快把它草擬出來但草擬出來之後我們希望有一個公聽會的形式讓這個修法的過程更加完備市長是否同意這樣的做法"},{"start":249.906,"end":274.587,"text":"是我想這個我們在研擬的過程中也會跟這個相關各部會的專家所有專家都會來做研習來討論那當然提出這個版本之後呢相關的法制作業程序裡面也會跟社會來溝通那如果草案經過院會送到立法院來之後立法院這邊的審議我們都尊重好 謝謝次長 次長請問我們請梁副主委請副主委"},{"start":279.66,"end":285.574,"text":"我看陸委會的報告跟法務部不太一樣陸委會好像都還蠻支持的對不對"},{"start":287.175,"end":309.404,"text":"因為從陸委會的立場來說現在的國安法制確實漏洞很大然後很多案子不是沒辦法辦就是辦了也判不成那其實有質詢率低落的問題對不對這其實本集也有了解所以對我們來講的話就是說我們贊成任何加強國安法制的作為可是加強任何的時候有沒有可能影響到人民的生活呢"},{"start":312.208,"end":326.802,"text":"我覺得目前是這樣就是說參與組織這個部分我們是一定要把它放進去那其他委員還提出了一個譬如說受中共指示然後譬如說刊登或是散佈圖書文字影像消息這個"},{"start":329.304,"end":355.219,"text":"賴瑞榮委員有提出來這個那是機制部分嘛洩密跟參與組織那當然不用講啦那一定是在防守範圍之內我現在問的是比如說王定宇委員的版本他講說除了發起資助組織操縱指揮組織之外或為其組織機構團體之成員或參與活動他的這個主體是講說這個所謂的境外敵對勢力喔就是包含大陸地區所以換言之你參與他的活動也要入國安法的守備範圍要入罪喔"},{"start":356.139,"end":372.698,"text":"這樣子你會支持嗎?我舉一個最明顯的例子啦這我們的媽祖廟,對不對?每週媽祖分靈難免他會舉辦公廟之間,就有媽祖回娘家然後大家就去進香請問這算不算參與外國、大陸地區、香港、澳門境外敵對勢力之組織機構的活動?"},{"start":376.563,"end":390.748,"text":"那我們要先判斷說這個組織本身是不是我們認為的非法組織或是受中共指使的組織人家對手是獨裁政權是極權政權哪一個組織不受他操控的對不對過去的時候大家的判斷本來就是這樣啊"},{"start":391.508,"end":419.314,"text":"那這樣子變成媽祖梅州梅州媽祖大家分靈回娘家也會變成國安法要偵辦的對象這樣子會不會有點過頭我先只舉其中一個例子我講這個修法他除了法理上剛剛我跟次長在討論法理上面要怎麼樣做會比較合理之外另外一個這個法的修正也會影響人民的生活比如玩手遊對不對參加活動甚至參加什麼1111什麼光棍節團購跟對岸電商買東西算不算參與活動很有很多可以討論的地方所以我希望陸委會這邊"},{"start":420.834,"end":442.082,"text":"不要因為你顧慮這個漏洞我理解但你不要因為這樣子那條線劃錯位置啦然後反而造成擾民的問題都要提醒所以本席要再次強調這個法律要修正沒有問題國民黨也不會為反而反但關鍵是法律過程要周延嘛法界的意見之外公聽會的內容也應該著參各式各樣你是主管兩岸交流的機關啊"},{"start":442.922,"end":449.153,"text":"對不對這條線要怎麼畫針對兩岸交流這部分要怎麼來處理也要納入考量的範圍這是本席給你的建議好嗎好謝謝副主委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":826,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時16分）謝謝主席，我們法務部次長有請。"],["主席：請次長。"],["黃次長世杰：好，委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：次長早安。"],["黃次長世杰：早。"],["牛委員煦庭：今天要審查民進黨諸多委員提出來的國家安全法的修正草案，當然我們沒有什麼好因為政治的立場，大家就為反對而反對，我覺得這是沒有必要的，但是我覺得在立法討論的過程之中要力求周延，也就是說這些法律的原則性，這個東西要把控清楚，內容上要做充分的討論。","我援引一個臺大法學院的教授，也是現在我們的政務委員林明昕先生，他2023年12月寫文章投稿，在《國家安全與行政管制》一文中就有提到：管制的具體目的何在，為了避免哪一種涉及國家安全的問題或者是公共秩序的破壞，行政管制不應該徒言維護公共秩序，甚至口號式地宣稱國家安全考慮，而必須非常具體地指出問題在哪裡，然後才會有管制的手段。我想他那篇文章的脈絡寫得非常非常清楚，他在文章中有提到國安的立法其實要討論兩個面向，第一叫積極的面向，也就是手段跟目的的合理關聯，我要管制哪些是要非常明確的，我要用什麼樣的手段可以明確地解決這樣子的問題，要有明確性的關聯；第二，要符合消極面向，所謂的消極面向也就是避免去違反憲法的一些原則，包含層級化法律保留原則、法律明確性原則、平等原則、比例原則、信賴保護原則等等。本席並不是法律專家，但次長你是，我想請教一下，以你目前看這些委員的提案版本，他們有沒有符合林明昕政委在文章裡面提到的積極面向跟消極面向？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，我想委員也都已經有事先閱讀過本部跟司法院分別就法律的專業來對這一次委員所提出來，特別是關於刑罰的部分，針對它的比例原則、構成要件的明確性跟它的目的關係，我們都有做相關的論述。我想我們的原則就是，因為在賴總統宣示之後，行政院也已經啟動國安相關法令，各級主管機關都要全面來檢視，所以我們目前在研議相關的修法作業當中。就今天所討論的國安法，特別是就發展組織之外，將參與組織這個漏洞把它補起來，以及關於退撫的部分，這兩個部分我們已經在具體研議當中，所以我們今天的意見也提供給大院在審查各委員提案的時候來做參考，我想裡面都有一些可以再斟酌討論的地方。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以，您的意思是說……我有看到你的報告，大部分的結論都是建請再酌，也就是說大家再商量一下。"],["黃次長世杰：因為沒有問題的部分我們不會講，我們就把有問題的部分寫出來……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以幾乎每一條都有再考量的空間，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：大部分都有。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那我剛剛聽其他委員的時候，我大概也知道說可能會有院版，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：請問次長，對於院版，你們抓的時間點是什麼時候？"],["黃次長世杰：目前因為裡面有一些部分會有跨機關要來整合、協調、配套的部分，所以這個由行政院在統籌辦理當中。我們現在在進行的期程部分會不會再拆分？或是說會再提出幾個……"],["牛委員煦庭：你們會在這個會期裡面有正式的院版出來嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：我們會儘快，希望、希望。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，次長，我們也許等院版出來，有一個好的母體之後……本席也是非常非常希望，因為這茲事體大。我今天跟您討論的是法理上面，法理上面你比較專業，我希望有很多法學專家的意見，因為這個是事涉到政府管制權限的問題，今天如果要修國安法，以國安為由，然後讓政府有擴大的權力，到底那條紅線要畫在哪裡？怎麼樣才是最適切的？我想這是社會大眾共同關心的，這個也不能只有朝野立委表達意見，我們希望有法學的專家、很多學界的意見，可以透過公聽會等等的方式來做處理。沒關係，既然今天法務部這邊的官方立場是很多條文要建請再酌、要再商量，未來也會有所謂的院版，那我們就希望院版趕快草擬出來，草擬出來之後，我們希望有一個公聽會的形式，讓這個修法的過程更加完備，次長是否同意這樣的作法？"],["黃次長世杰：是，我想我們在研擬的過程中也會跟相關各部會、學者專家來做研析、討論，當然提出這個版本之後，相關的法制作業程序裡面也會跟社會來溝通，如果草案經過院會送到立法院來之後，立法院這邊的審議我們都尊重。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝次長，次長請回，我們請梁副主委。"],["主席：請副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：我看陸委會的報告跟法務部的不太一樣，陸委會好像都還滿支持的，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是，因為從陸委會的立場來說，現在的國安法制確實漏洞很大，然後很多案子不是沒辦法辦，就是辦了也判不成。"],["牛委員煦庭：它其實有執行率低落的問題，本席也有了解。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：所以對我們來講，我們贊成任何加強國安法制的作為。"],["牛委員煦庭：可是加強任何國安法制的時候，有沒有可能影響到人民的生活呢？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我覺得目前是這樣，就是說參與組織這個部分我們是一定要把它放進去，其他委員還提出了一個，譬如說受中共指示刊登或是散布圖書、文字、影像、消息，賴瑞隆委員有提出來這個……"],["牛委員煦庭：那是機密的部分嘛。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：洩密跟參與組織那當然不用講，一定是在防守範圍之內，我現在問的是，比如說王定宇委員的版本，他說，除了發起、資助、主持、操縱、指揮或發展組織；或為其組織、機構、團體之成員或參與其活動。他的這個主體是講說所謂的境外敵對勢力，就是包含大陸地區。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以換言之，你參與他的活動也要入國安法的守備範圍、要入罪，這樣子你會支持嗎？我舉一個最明顯的例子，像我們的媽祖廟，湄洲媽祖分靈，難免會舉辦宮廟之間像媽祖回娘家，然後大家就去進香，請問這算不算參與外國、大陸地區、香港、澳門、境外敵對勢力之組織、機構的活動？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：那我們要先判斷這個組織本身是不是我們認為的非法組織，或是受中共指使的組織。"],["牛委員煦庭：人家對手是獨裁政權、極權政權，哪一個組織不受他操控，對不對？過去大家的判斷本來就是這樣。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：這樣子變成大家參與湄洲媽祖分靈回娘家也會變成國安法要偵辦的對象，這樣子會不會有點過頭？我今天只是舉其中一個例子，我講這個修法除了法理上，剛剛我跟次長在討論法理上面要怎麼樣做會比較合理之外，另外，這個法的修正也會影響人民的生活，比如說玩手遊、參加活動，甚至參加1111光棍節、團購、跟對岸電商買東西算不算參與活動？有很多可以討論的地方，所以我希望陸委會這邊，你顧慮這個漏洞我理解，但你不要因為這樣子，那條線畫錯位置，反而造成擾民的問題，這個我要提醒。所以本席還是再次強調，這個法律要修正，沒有問題，國民黨也不會為反而反，但關鍵是法律過程要周延，除了法界的意見之外，公聽會的內容也應該酌參，包含各式各樣的，你是主管兩岸交流的機關對不對？這條線要怎麼畫？針對兩岸交流這部分要怎麼處理也要納入考量的範圍，這是本席給你的建議，好嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝副主委。"],["主席：鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","我們請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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黃次長跟副主委"},{"start":15.216,"end":32.796,"text":"好我把握時間喔有兩個主題第一個有借選就會有借罷也就是中共對於台灣的民主選舉或是民主的罷免我們有沒有什麼超前部署的因應防範第二個我回到國安法立法院不應當是局外人來下一頁"},{"start":34.458,"end":55.564,"text":"袁紅冰教授他一再的在警示著就以去年他很早的就揭示了習近平指示戰場就在立法院中共只要鎖定結盟立法院的同路人就可以用民主來破壞台灣的民主他是現在進行式所以袁教授所說的事情在過去一年的國會現場觀察起來一一應驗了下一頁"},{"start":59.165,"end":82.822,"text":"所以袁教授再一次的示警就是這幾天中國將介入台灣的大罷免的行動罷免是跟選舉一樣都是憲法珍貴的人民基本權所以中國過去介入台灣的民主選舉劣跡斑斑那現在會不會也介入台灣的民主人民基本權的另外一個就是罷免呢"},{"start":83.562,"end":102.017,"text":"袁教授所说的中共对台工作领导小组的文件已经批示了要着重分化民进党跟公民霸团的关系要着力在防止大霸们行动中的公民团体的领军人物来进行抹黑因为担心他们未来来参选"},{"start":102.697,"end":123.165,"text":"第三個大罷免進入三階所以中國一直在觀察要用各種認知作戰的宣傳手段從人格上來摧毀這些大罷免的行動就交於梁副主委或是我們次長這邊有任何具體這樣子的一個情資的判斷或者是你們有什麼樣的因應嗎袁紅冰教授所說的這份"},{"start":129.13,"end":144.464,"text":"文件我們並沒有掌握但是如果對岸想要做這些事情我是一點都不驚訝所以有沒有這些文件我覺得這些事情都是"},{"start":145.851,"end":170.747,"text":"都是對岸會想要試圖去做的那法務部有另外的什麼樣的情資我們看下一頁 我讓次長回答這一頁我一直認為就像剛剛梁副主委所說的不管文件的真實具體與否但是以中國過去介入民主選舉的這些作為來講未來介入罷免也應當讓不足為奇"},{"start":171.647,"end":176.05,"text":"法務部過去呢我在司法法治委員會你們針對整個選舉作為選舉的舉行會有境外資金借選會有網路選舉賭盤會有認知作戰操作訊息干擾等等你們都有專案會去偵辦會去啟動那我就交於次長那這一次如果在未來的罷免從二階到三階法務部也應當來啟動一個類似民主選舉的必要的作為是嗎"},{"start":200.53,"end":213.974,"text":"我想這個因為現行的這個嫌霸法跟這個反滲透法都有相關的這個法則的條文那麼各檢察機關都會以法來辦理那我也建議我們會待會去請檢察機關來過去我們對於民主選舉的舉行所啟動的所有不管反會選啦反賭盤啦這些都要做"},{"start":221.916,"end":250.569,"text":"反境外的资金各种借选方式未来在罢免的民主的这些人民基本权利行使过程法务部也要依法行政那今天的主题呢要修国安法非常遗憾今天我们看在野党的多数委员也都说支持国安反共谍渗透可到目前为止提出来的国安法的修正案里头九个版本都是民进党委员所提的"},{"start":251.289,"end":275.274,"text":"那我个人所看了这总共的六个条文我认为它影响的层面广泛为大内容方向我都可以支持但我认为还要比严谨更严谨内容再严密要周全再周全这应当也是行政部门未来不管有没有院版我们都启动多元扩大的对话下一页"},{"start":276.209,"end":299.939,"text":"那過去法務部針對整個共諜滲透有很多你們做的譬如說在產業界的防止科技掏空那也有防止借選滲透還有防止發展組織利誘軍人在軍人的部分今天最新的有兩件我要就教於您一個就是今天周刊所說的透過黑幫的滲透這件事情次長要不要簡單說明"},{"start":301.837,"end":329.758,"text":"好 謝謝因為這個他應該是在我們到這邊之後才出來的新聞那我想簡單就這個議題事實上應該也也在台灣這個現象我們觀察到很久了那我們也會責成我們的檢察機關依法來查查只要有違反國安法或反滲透法相關的這個規定我們都依法來檢查要強化查查因為如果就週刊的報導他不只買通黑道未來可能不管在平時對於台灣社會的滋擾跟在戰時透過黑幫"},{"start":332.815,"end":345.13,"text":"來打擊台灣的安全這絕對不容小覷另外一個就是國會的被滲透的事件下一頁在立黨委員一直在帶風向說共諜都在民進黨是這樣嗎2020年立委陳淑慧前助理來"},{"start":350.902,"end":372.517,"text":"被判了徒刑因為涉犯共諜案 國民黨的2024年國民黨的李尚典 郭沛君替鄭天才委員助選免費交代附中旅遊也被判刑了 國民黨的民眾黨的桃園黨部發言人馬志威呢受中國資助百萬來選立委而且他拿到的是國會的中央各部會國會聯絡名冊賣給中國也被判刑八個月 這民眾黨的"},{"start":377.02,"end":394.51,"text":"那民進黨我們當然很遺憾尤其是前院長的幕僚也目前要偵辦絕對不容寬待但是不要誤帶風向什麼共諜都在民進黨我們就事實論事實只要是共諜都不允許都要查辦下一頁"},{"start":395.57,"end":417.491,"text":"立法院2024年的年度代表字是匪哦真是讓人匪夷所思但是我們要審慎因應最後一個問題下一頁因為國安漏洞如果出現在國會目前公部門不管是調查局幫忙做的公務人員的一般查核或者是特殊查核或是可能考試院有幫忙協助拒絕的部分"},{"start":418.392,"end":431.565,"text":"現在我們正在研議在國會端對於立委對於立院的職員工對於國會助理能不能夠參照公務部門有任何查核或拒絕的機制呢可以給我們什麼樣的建議這個目前我們也在研議修法當中那你們會提出修但是這次可能是立法院的內規法"},{"start":443.322,"end":457.929,"text":"好,我在这里说,我期待法务部就你们研修的部分提供给立法院,然后民进党团会启动我们国会改革2.0,也就是以国安的部分来做立法院无法内规的修订下页。"},{"start":458.929,"end":474.376,"text":"所以說藍白如果不做連附中登載這件事情藍白都不做民進黨團會先行就教於梁副主委民進黨團預計我們要針對立委以及助理附中的公開登載揭露"},{"start":474.876,"end":490.057,"text":"我們的做法朝向簽同意書朝向主動揭露附中的資訊包括立委跟助理喔還有達到事前報備事後報告如果民進黨團演繹這樣子我們在演繹當中陸委會是不是樂見或是給我們更正向的建議"},{"start":491.26,"end":515.973,"text":"我們陸委會正在研議相關的修法我們現在目前是傾向把立委直接放進去也就是沈伯陽一直被擋的案子那但是助理的部分因為我想大家都知道這個生態如果你要規範你只能規範公費助理但是一旦規範下去的話很多公費助理就會變成自費助理"},{"start":517.434,"end":535.727,"text":"所以這個規範其實不是很有效所以我個人是建議說直接規範立委就好了當然就政府的法案可能規範立委是優先更何況現在已經連立委的附中登載就被擋了363次"},{"start":537.228,"end":551.561,"text":"但是我在這裡也擴大後續會再就教於各位我們民進黨團會先行我們自己先來做黨團內部的包括立委跟助理的這些揭露的作為也許我相信民進黨的委員們公費助理跟自費助理我們受到的嚴謹"},{"start":556.085,"end":576.798,"text":"我们的自我要求都是一样高那刚刚黄次长说的正在研议对于国会的反共谍渗透有哪些法规法案民进党团非常愿意我们一起来共商讨论毕竟保密防谍共谍不应当存在任何地方包括立法院不好意思占用时间我们一起努力谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":796,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時6分）謝謝主席，國家安全很重要，只有4分鐘，顯然不夠，我爭取多一點點時間，謝謝。有請黃次長跟梁副主委。"],["主席：好，請黃次長跟副主委。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：我把握時間有兩個主題，第一個有介選就會有介罷，也就是中共對於臺灣的民主選舉或是民主罷免，我們有沒有什麼超前部署的因應防範？第二個，我回到國安法，立法院不應當是局外人。","袁紅冰教授一再地警示著，去年他很早就揭示習近平指示戰場就在立法院，中共只要鎖定結盟立法院的同路人，就可以用民主來破壞臺灣的民主，它是現在進行式，所以袁教授所說的事情，在過去一年的國會現場觀察起來，一一應驗了。所以這幾天袁教授再一次地示警，中國將介入臺灣的大罷免行動，罷免是跟選舉一樣都是憲法珍貴的人民基本權，所以中國過去介入臺灣的民主選舉劣跡斑斑，現在會不會也介入另外一個臺灣民主的人民基本權就是罷免呢？袁教授所說的中共對臺工作領導小組的文件已經批示了，要著重分化民進黨跟公民罷團的關係；要著力在抹黑大罷免行動中公民團體的領軍人物，因為擔心他們未來參選；第三個，大罷免進入三階，所以中國一直在觀察，要用各種認知作戰的宣傳手段，從人格上來摧毀這些大罷免的行動。就教於梁副主委或是我們次長這邊有任何具體的情資判斷，或者是你們有什麼樣的因應嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：袁紅冰教授所說的這份文件我們並沒有掌握，但是如果對岸想要做這些事情，我是一點都不驚訝。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以也極有可能。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：無論有沒有這些文件，我覺得這些事情都是對岸會想要試圖去做的。"],["吳委員思瑤：法務部另外有什麼樣的情資？我們看下一頁，我讓次長回答這一頁。我一直認為，就像剛剛梁副主委所說的，不管文件的真實具體與否，但是以中國過去介入民主選舉的這些作為來講，未來介入罷免也應當不足為奇。過去我在司法及法制委員會，法務部針對整個選舉舉行會有的境外資金介選、網路選舉賭盤、認知作戰、操作訊息干擾等等，你們都有專案會去偵辦、會去啟動。我就教於次長，這一次在未來的罷免，從二階到三階，法務部也應當啟動一個類似民主選舉的必要作為，是嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：因為現行的選罷法跟反滲透法都有相關的罰則條文，各檢察機關就會依法來辦理，委員的建議我們會帶回去請檢察機關處理。"],["吳委員思瑤：過去我們對於舉行民主選舉所啟動的所有方式，不管反賄選啦、反賭盤啦，這些都要做，包含反境外資金等各種介選方式，未來在這些罷免的、民主的人民基本權利行使過程，法務部也要依法行政。","今天的主題是要修國安法，非常遺憾，今天我們看在野黨的多數委員也都說支持國安、反共諜滲透，可到目前為止在提出來的國安法修正案裡頭，9個版本都是民進黨委員所提的，我個人看了這總共6個條文，我認為它影響的層面廣、範圍大，內容方向我都可以支持，但我認為還要比嚴謹更嚴謹，內容研議要周全再周全，這應當也是行政部門未來不管有沒有院版，我們都啟動多元、擴大的對話。","過去法務部針對整個共諜滲透做了很多，譬如說在產業界的防止科技掏空，也有防止介選滲透，還有防止發展組織、利誘軍人，在軍人的部分。今天最新的有2件我要就教於您，一個就是今天週刊所說的透過黑幫滲透，這件事情次長要不要簡單說明？"],["黃次長世杰：好，謝謝，因為它應該是在我們到這邊之後才出來的新聞，我想簡單就這個議題……事實上我們也在臺灣觀察到這個現象很久了，我們也會責成我們的檢察機關依法來查察，只要有違反國安法或反滲透法相關的規定，我們都會依法來嚴查。"],["吳委員思瑤：要強化查察，因為如果就週刊的報導，他不只買通黑道，未來可能不管在平時對於臺灣社會的滋擾，跟在戰時透過黑幫來打擊臺灣的安全，這絕對不容小覷。","另外一個就是國會被滲透的事件，在野黨委員一直在帶風向，說共諜都在民進黨，是這樣嗎？2020年立委陳淑慧前助理被判了徒刑，因為涉犯共諜案，國民黨的；2024年，國民黨的李尚典、郭佩金替鄭天財委員助選，免費招待赴中旅遊，也被判刑了，國民黨的；民眾黨的桃園黨部發言人馬治薇受中國資助百萬來選立委，而且他將中央各部會國會聯絡名冊賣給中國，也被判刑8個月，這民眾黨的；民進黨，我們當然很遺憾，游錫堃前院長的幕僚目前也要偵辦，絕對不容寬貸。但是不要誤帶風向，什麼共諜都在民進黨，我們就事實論事實，只要是共諜都不允許、都要查辦！","立法院2024年的年度代表字是「匪」，真是讓人匪夷所思，但是我們要審慎因應。最後一個問題，如果國安漏洞出現在國會，目前公部門不管是調查局幫忙做的公務人員一般查核或者是特殊查核，或是考試院有幫忙協助具結的部分，現在我們正在研議，在國會端對於立委、對於立院的職員工、對於國會助理能不能夠參照公務部門有任何查核或具結的機制，可以給我們什麼樣的建議？"],["黃次長世杰：目前我們也在研議修法當中。"],["吳委員思瑤：那你們會提出修……但這可能是立法院的內規法，好，我在這裡說，我期待法務部就你們研修的部分提供給立法院，然後民進黨團會啟動我們國會改革2.0，也就是以國安的部分來做立法院五法內規的修訂。","所以說藍白如果不做，連赴中登載這件事情藍白都不做，民進黨團會先行。就教於梁副主委，民進黨團預計我們要針對立委以及助理赴中公開登載揭露，我們的作法朝向簽同意書、朝向主動揭露赴中的資訊，包括立委跟助理，還有達到事前報備、事後報告，如果民進黨團研議這樣子，我們正在研議當中，陸委會是不是樂見或是給予我們更正向的建議？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們陸委會正在研議相關的修法，我們目前是傾向把立委直接放進去。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，也就是沈伯洋一直被擋的案子。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，但是助理的部分，因為我想大家都知道這個生態，如果你要規範，你只能規範公費助理。"],["吳委員思瑤：對，助理反而是漏洞。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：但是一旦規範下去的話，很多公費助理就會變成自費助理，所以這個規範其實不是很有效，所以我個人是建議直接規範立委就好了。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，當然就政府的法案來講，可能規範立委是優先，更何況現在已經連立委的赴中登載就被擋了363次，但是我在這裡也擴大……後續會再就教於各位，我們民進黨團會先行，我們自己先來做黨團內部的，包括立委跟助理的這些揭露的作為，我相信民進黨的委員們、公費助理跟自費助理，我們受到的嚴謹、我們的自我要求都是一樣高，剛剛黃次長說的正在研議對於國會的反共諜滲透有哪些法規、法案，民進黨團非常願意，我們一起來共商討論，畢竟保密防諜……共諜不應當存在任何地方，包括立法院，不好意思占用時間，我們一起努力，謝謝。"],["主席：邱志偉、邱志偉，邱志偉委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘，蔡易餘委員不在。","我們請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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請法務部跟司法院委員好好 各位早安因為我看了那個民進黨委員的版本那我就那個第二條的部分我想請教一下因為我有看過司法院跟法務部你們對於這個草案的論述"},{"start":28.141,"end":45.472,"text":"尤其是齁 我覺得最近發生很多共諜案那昨天還前天林永昌不是說國民黨這是那個幽靈聯署這個是犯罪組織 事實上幽靈聯署那個偽造文書並不是五年以上中所以依照我國目前的組織犯罪條例第二條"},{"start":46.809,"end":71.167,"text":"那個不算是組織犯罪 但是什麼東西算組織犯罪就是最近發生在總統府 國安會 外交部 還有民進黨民主學院還有民進黨立法院 黨團 都常有共諜那這個就完全符合組織犯罪的規定對不對 三年以上 五年以上有期徒刑所以我再說 這個我們必須一定要很注重國安的安全而且國家安全是每個人的責任"},{"start":72.188,"end":88.773,"text":"那我想請教一下齁我先請問痾正次啦齁痾第一款齁第二條第一款那個發起資助主持操縱指揮發展組織目前的起訴比例定罪比例你有資料嗎痾有資料嗎好請問你稍後這多少我請我們市長來扶一下"},{"start":99.358,"end":124.548,"text":"跟委員報告那針對那個國家安全法的案件那起訴的案件在103年的時候是有81件定罪率起訴率定罪率目前定罪率是81%好起訴率呢起訴率是這個28點62.3抱歉所以起訴率蠻低的嘛"},{"start":128.066,"end":130.39,"text":"130件裡面有81件起訴那起訴率是62.3%你剛剛不是說20幾嗎"},{"start":137.691,"end":164.393,"text":"不是 不是 我看錯了好 沒關係 那不然這個到時候我再請教你們一下因為再給我一個比較精確的數據好 我們會再提供數據因為我看了一下法務部跟司法院你們對於第二款的版本草案司法院認為說含義不明確法務部認為範圍不夠具體那所以說對於這一次委員所提出來的這個草案第二條第二款你們是不是不支持啊"},{"start":165.305,"end":171.34,"text":"我們都建請在座建請在座OK那就就是有疑慮司法院呢"},{"start":172.933,"end":197.068,"text":"也正如本院提出的報告確實有一些需要調整之處好 謝謝 那我想說這就是司法的專業啦因為有一些人提出一些國安的法條那我們有疑問或我們我們有疑問在那邊說很多人說那你就是中共同路人我想不能這樣 我們都法律人事實上這個法條的規範它從公務上面變成是涉及國家安全及公益上面這個範圍變得非常的不明確"},{"start":197.808,"end":212.984,"text":"那如果這個因為這樣然後卡的罪又這麼重我覺得這不是一個立法委員一個禁止的立法委員該做了而且這個會變成到時候執政黨可以拿這個來作為政治攻擊我在這邊先聲明我非常支持國家安全"},{"start":213.584,"end":232.39,"text":"我也非常支持來自於任何一個國家或地區對我們的攻擊或滲透我也絕對反對但是我希望相關的法律在研擬的時候必須要明確尤其是最非常的重那我過往我看到了國安法反滲透法等等我都發現有一個問題就是它的"},{"start":233.15,"end":257.062,"text":"後來的無罪率很高也就是說一開始他問了非常多的人鄰里非常多人因為去大陸旅遊或吃個飯然後就被起訴是被約談起訴結果後面就大量的被約談的人被大量牽結不起訴那被起訴的又大量的判無罪那我覺得這個都是老民那甚至呢他就是為了選舉在做一些動作那不要讓我們"},{"start":259.003,"end":272.231,"text":"覺得政府怎麼走向是希望讓國家走向寒蟬效應這個是我們不期待的那我想時間的關係我最後我就提一個我想提你們"},{"start":273.086,"end":291.798,"text":"提供給我一些資料我希望法務部在一個月內能夠把違反國安法的起訴率有罪定罪率這個資料給我然後還有不起訴跟判無罪的理由提供一些我們立法建議還有這構成要件是有明確這個部分能夠給我"},{"start":293.639,"end":311.676,"text":"然後另外就是一週內給我們一份2023年到2024年總統跟立委大選期間違反選罷法、反滲透法這些上次我其實在SAR法治已經有提過請你們把這個資料給我們因為我覺得國家安全事先的防範重於事後的追陳"},{"start":312.811,"end":327.689,"text":"結果你們把重點放在事後追審 而且還規定的不明確 這樣是不對的那下週我自己再上法治委員會 我有安排 我希望說國安會 國安局的人能夠一併來說明 我也希望說大家不要動動就請假 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要提出這樣的報告可能比較需要演繹那可否比較長的時間可以可以可以那大概多久"},{"start":252.829,"end":255.95,"text":"法務部是不是也可以在兩個月內就刑事法制與執行風險評估報告具體的檢討條文的明確性"},{"start":269.734,"end":288.513,"text":"可执行性我先讲完好不好以及刑度的适当性并且对于侦查与起诉可能产生的执法争议提出具体的建议针对这次的法条修正的草案跟委员报告因为刚才在讨论的过程"},{"start":289.353,"end":304.161,"text":"我们的口头报告里面都已经有报告针对里面部分的这个条文其实目前行政院已经在盘点当中所以您的意思是说会有行政院版的行政院版预计应该会更久吧"},{"start":305.682,"end":333.402,"text":"目前还没有这个明确的期程但是我们已经都在进行会加速来办所以行政院整合的时候都有你们的意见那没问题我们希望有行政院版那最后本席还是想要请教最后因为时间的关系那请问这个两个单位我们至今尚未指定国安法的主管机关那到底谁有权指导事宜"},{"start":334.042,"end":356.797,"text":"所以這主管機關是行政院嗎還是對跟我們報告過去的慣例是由行政院那因為底下的條文其實分別有不同的部會在負責包含本部內政部跟國防部所以行政院統合嗎對由行政院來統合所以我們的負責的人是行政院長是"},{"start":359.591,"end":368.777,"text":"因為本席看到在修正案裡面很多有寫到主管機關要怎麼樣怎麼樣所以這個我們還是要確立主管機關好那再來"},{"start":370.799,"end":396.867,"text":"对 我们整个国安法的修法那我们也要兼顾我们的民主与人权所以国安跟民主人权的平衡点到底在哪里所以我们想要请教你们认为目前一些修正草案的模糊性跟广泛性它是不是存在侵害了人民的言论自由集会结社的自由以及资讯自主权的实质风险"},{"start":398.862,"end":411.314,"text":"而且行政院和司法院目前審查或評估法案的時候都會有一套明確的人權影響評估機制所以是否能夠進行影響評估"},{"start":413.13,"end":430.142,"text":"跟委員報告人權影響評估機制這個在院的這個人權的小組裡面事實上是今年年初才這個核定之前都是在試辦那所以這個目前行政院正在翻班刑當中那假設本法案未來"},{"start":431.042,"end":449.927,"text":"有這個要適用的話 行政委員會指示好最後就是請吳法官就是剛剛本席所說的這次你們看到這次修正草案是不是它中間的這種模糊性廣泛性存在了侵害人民的言論自由集會結社自由以及資訊自主的實質風險簡單回答"},{"start":454.423,"end":467.999,"text":"報告委員那今天本院提出來是就這個構成要件明確性等等部分可能做的一些建議或者是提出意見那是不是會產生這樣的一個後續的情況呢可能還要看個案來認定謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝兩位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":717,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時52分）謝謝主席，本席有請法務部黃次長及司法院吳法官。"],["主席：請黃次長、請司法院。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：次長好，還有吳法官好。我想保障國家安全應該是我們所有國人都支持，而且也是大家有共識的。我們今天要審查國安法的部分條文修正草案，我們當然希望把國安法修好，讓人民有所依循，也讓執法單位知道怎麼樣執法。所以本席在這裡要先請教法務部跟司法院，本席有看到法務部跟司法院的書面意見都很明確指出這一次修法的草案內容有一些文字是不是過於含糊、過於籠統，首先本席想請教，有關涉及國家安全，它具體的判斷標準是什麼？公共利益的範圍又要如何界定？由誰來界定？本席分別請法務部跟司法院提出你們簡要的見解。"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，因為今天所提出來很多的草案後面都涉及到刑事處罰，所以刑罰的部分當然會由檢察機關指揮司法警察機關來偵辦，最後如果起訴的話，會由法院來審理，所以具體構成要件的判斷，會依照個案的事實在這個程序裡面去確認。關於每個刑罰的範圍，比方說行為，它的構成要件符不符合比例原則跟明確性原則，這個就是我們在立法的時候必須要審慎思考的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以構成要件要非常明確，您認同吧？"],["黃次長世杰：是，這也是我們書面意見指出的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那請吳法官。"],["吳法官元曜：報告委員，正如委員所說的，構成要件明確性確實是很重要的刑罰原則，所以在本院今天的報告裡面，譬如對於委員陳冠廷等21人的提案也特別提到，如果修正成「涉及國家安全或公共利益」，這個部分涵義似非明確，因此我們建請釐清；又例如對於委員王定宇等16人所提的草案，本院也特別提到草案第七條第四項有些記載比較簡略的部分是不是應該要加以敘明，我們也有特別指摘，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：謝謝。所以兩個單位都有這樣的具體意見，那在我們正式逐條討論修法之前，本席想請教司法院是不是可以在1個月還是2個月內針對這次的這一些版本提出完整的法律專業評估意見，包括各修法的版本和憲政體制、司法審查標準的衝突與調和分析，以及具體的修法建議，請司法院看看1個月或2個月內，可以嗎？針對我們這個提出比較……因為你們這一次報告都簡單幾頁嘛，但是我們給更長的時間，針對這個修法的內容是不是可以提出比較具體的修法建議，2個月可以嗎？還是1個月？"],["吳法官元曜：委員的意思就是，除了今天本院的報告之外，另外再做更……"],["徐委員欣瑩：就是針對今天修法的內容。"],["吳法官元曜：更具體的？"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，更具體的，可以嗎？"],["吳法官元曜：2個月嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們看看1個月還2個月，可以嗎？"],["吳法官元曜：如果要提出這樣的報告可能比較需要研議，可否比較長的時間？"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以！那大概多久？2個月可以？"],["吳法官元曜：委員剛剛講最長是2個月嗎？"],["徐委員欣瑩：2個月可以嘛？"],["吳法官元曜：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。那法務部是不是也可以在2個月內就刑事法制與執行風險評估，具體的檢討條文明確性、可執行性……"],["黃次長世杰：委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我先講完，好不好？"],["黃次長世杰：是！"],["徐委員欣瑩：以及刑度的適當性，並且對於偵查與起訴可能產生的執法爭議提出具體的建議，針對這次的法條修正法草案。"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，剛才在討論的過程跟我們的口頭報告裡面都已經有報告，針對這裡面的部分條文，目前行政院已經在盤點當中，所以……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以您的意思是會有行政院版，是不是？"],["黃次長世杰：我們將來會有行政院版本，對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好！行政院版應該會更久吧，因為要很審慎嘛。"],["黃次長世杰：目前還沒有具體的期程，但是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：明確的期程？"],["黃次長世杰：我們已經都在進行中，會加速來辦理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以行政院整合的時候都有你們的意見？"],["黃次長世杰：是！"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，那沒問題，我們希望有行政院版。"],["黃次長世杰：是！"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後本席還是想要請教，請問兩個單位，我們至今尚未指定國安法的主管機關，那到底誰有權指導、釋疑？主管機關是行政院嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，過去的慣例是由行政院，因為底下的條文其實分別由不同的部會負責，包含本部、內政部跟國防部，所以我們作為行政院的幕僚單位……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以行政院統合嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：對，由行政院來統合。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以負責的人是行政院長？"],["黃次長世杰：是！"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，因為本席看到修正案裡面很多寫到主管機關要怎麼樣、怎麼樣，所以這部分我們還是要確立主管機關。"],["黃次長世杰：是！"],["徐委員欣瑩：再來，整個國安法的修法也要兼顧我們的民主與人權，究竟國安跟民主、人權的平衡點到底在哪裡？所以我想要請教，你們認為目前一些修正草案的模糊性跟廣泛性是不是存在侵害人民言論自由、集會結社自由以及資訊自主權的實質風險？而且行政院和司法院目前審查或評估法案的時候都會有一套明確的人權影響評估機制，對不對？所以是否能夠進行影響評估？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，人權影響評估機制在院的人權小組裡面，事實上是今年年初才核定，之前都是在試辦，所以目前行政院正在頒行當中，假設本法案未來要適用的話，行政院也會指示。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後，請吳法官就剛剛本席所說的，你們看到這次的修正草案是不是它中間的這種模糊性、廣泛性存在侵害人民的言論自由、集會結社自由以及資訊自主的實質風險，簡單回答。"],["吳法官元曜：報告委員，今天本院就構成要件明確性等等部分做的一些建議，或者是提出意見，那是不是會產生這樣的後續情況，可能還要看個案來認定，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝兩位。"],["主席：林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲委員不在。","請吳宗憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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各位委員有請入委會主委好 請副主委委員好主委好今天國家安全法條文的修正當然都是立委的版本沒有行政院的版本這裡面第二條任何人不得為外國 大陸地區 香港 澳門 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請副主委跟次長"},{"start":10.888,"end":35.378,"text":"委員好副主委還有市長兩位好根據國家安全局在今年1月12號發布的共諜案的滲透手法分析你可以看到我們這四年來短短的四年來成長了三倍那面對這麼嚴峻的一個滲透的情勢特別是民進黨內部被滲透的那麼厲害包括總統府立法院國安會外交部民進黨部那在4月9號的這個"},{"start":37.318,"end":52.976,"text":"民進黨的中常會賴清德總統就為了防堵民進黨黨工被滲透而提出了要研擬急難救助辦法我這邊想要問的是總統心中的國家安全難道只限於黨工的安全嗎同樣是因為經濟困難債務壓力而淪為對岸滲透對象的普通國人"},{"start":58.061,"end":72.817,"text":"他們難道不值得國家提供警戒救助嗎在這邊我想請教一下副主委梁副主委有多少被起訴的共諜是因為債務問題而被迫協助對岸那陸委會是否掌握這群社會弱勢經濟困難的族群比例"},{"start":74.018,"end":97.382,"text":"具體的數字我們手上沒有但是確實有很多個案就像我剛才講的是為了迎頭小利那特別是發生在志願役的士兵那他們常常是因為網路博弈或是打電玩然後就是這個錢其實金額都不高啦"},{"start":97.793,"end":120.703,"text":"副主委不過我想在這個4月9號中常會也提到說事實上民進黨工被賄賂的金額比軍人還高所以說針對賴清德總統對於這個經濟弱勢他認為是滲透的一個破口所以他設立黨工的急難救助辦法所以請問副主委那這樣子政府要不要也設立一個這樣的急難救助辦法來因應因為債務問題經濟困難而成為滲透目標的國人"},{"start":124.215,"end":138.5,"text":"我不太知道那個對黨工的部分但是我剛剛向委員報告就是說我們現在發生的很多是在軍隊裡面那都是就是因為欠了一些債因為網路博弈或打面玩這樣子因為債務問題"},{"start":142.081,"end":159.686,"text":"這個問題剛剛梁副主任也是承認是有這樣的問題這個國防部要想一個辦法啦就是說除了國防部我現在請教您的是除了國防部之外其實我們現在看到目前有被爆出來甚至收到進鑒交保的幾乎都是民進黨的"},{"start":160.973,"end":181.833,"text":"不管是黨工或者是在民進在這個總統府立法院國安會外交部曾經服務過的那針對這個部分的話我是我剛提到嘛就是我們的賴慶德總統他同時也是賴慶德主席他提出了其實應該要設立一個急難救助辦法那你覺得我們的政府有沒有考慮要適用這樣子的急難救助的辦法"},{"start":184.099,"end":212.78,"text":"我覺得急難救助應該就是對所有人只要你弱勢就是應該要急難救助如果以這樣子的一個推論但是用急難救助來處理或是預防間諜行為我覺得可能比較困難一點因為很多做間諜的人他可能還是商人可能是商人可能是本身蠻有錢但是他還要追求更大的利益"},{"start":213.4,"end":218.506,"text":"所以現在是民進黨的話才可以有這樣子的待遇一般的人是不行嗎因為我不太知道說民進黨的措施是什麼這樣子所以我這個沒辦法回答您可以去看一下這個在4月9號的民進黨中常會有提出這樣的一個討論那我們也希望如果真的是這樣的話應該要一視同仁嘛"},{"start":231.482,"end":252.684,"text":"不該只有民進黨的黨工有這樣一個急難救助那如果是甚至剛剛有提到就是說如果今天是台商因為經濟困難而被迫協助對岸收集資料陸委會會不會提供他急難救助還是直接用反滲透法辦理台商通常不是為了經濟困難而是想要謀求更大的利益那這樣子會用這個反滲透法給他辦理嗎"},{"start":253.843,"end":268.444,"text":"看他具體觸犯什麼我想應該標準要一致司法的標準要一致不可以說對於民進黨黨工就這樣溫柔對待那對於這個國人就嚴刑峻罰那另外再想請教一下梁副主委就是"},{"start":269.065,"end":288.719,"text":"既然我們剛剛看到您的報告嘛就是 如果會這麼關心國家安全法的修法可是我今天看到就只有本院委員提出的修法版本但沒有行政院版請問何時可以提出行政院版的草案是現在正在加緊腳步對 大概預計何時會提出行政院版本"},{"start":289.6,"end":318.656,"text":"我想會用最快的時間因為這個案子牽涉到各個部門所以有行政院負責統合那我這邊沒有辦法幫行政院回答但是會加快腳步因為如果沒有行政院版本的話大家會認為是在打假球啊是那也拜託委員就到時候如果行政院提案的話就是讓如果行政院提案是符合符合全民的利益的話如果行政院提案是那當然請教一下就是兩位就是就國安法"},{"start":319.336,"end":345.398,"text":"國安法第二條定向第一款的規定就是任何人不得為外國大陸地區香港澳門境外敵對勢力或其設立或實質控制的各項組織機構團體或其派遣人之行為那這一次有委員提案要求增加或為其組織機構團體之成員或參與活動那請問梁副主委這個是要限制參與活動也就是"},{"start":347.304,"end":365.95,"text":"要全面禁止兩岸交流嗎要取消兩岸雙層論壇嗎要取消宗教交流學術交流嗎請問一下這個陸委會針對這樣的意見你們支持這樣的修法嗎我快速回答一下因為我們現在國安法第二條只處罰發展組織的人但是加入組織的人沒有懲罰"},{"start":366.81,"end":393.488,"text":"還有參加活動因為你加入組織所以你會參加活動或者是藉由參加活動來加入組織所以對我們來說的話就是說加入組織的人一定要受到懲罰因為過去很多案子都是我現在請教您的是針對這個修法針對就是要參與活動的所以未來是不是要取消兩岸雙城論壇未來是不是要取消宗教交流未來是不是要取消學術交流"},{"start":394.068,"end":411.755,"text":"不是 他一定要符合這個組織的概念不會因為單純的活動那以這一條來說 我們可以看到第一項是任何人不得為外國不只大陸地區 還有外國那是不是我們跟外國的交流也都會受到限制這樣台灣會不會真的變成鎖國的一個狀態我想不太可能"},{"start":418.579,"end":432.414,"text":"我們這第二條的修正就是以目前行政院各部門的態度來講就是說要把參與組織的這樣要收到要把它加進去這樣子那如果你只是單純的活動"},{"start":433.795,"end":448.854,"text":"或是說你加入什麼國外的可是你這樣的法條喔你這樣的法條的限制的話就已經讓人家覺得我今天去參加一個宗教交流活動一個學術交流活動就有可能違法違反國家安全法這個部分是不是可以請次長回覆一下"},{"start":449.535,"end":467.901,"text":"我想我們在今天的意見裡面我們都有很明確的說明就是就剛才這個梁副主委有提到參與組織的部分目前是一個漏洞但是就具體的構成要件跟文字我們還會再研議不是以今天委員提案的文字版本為準所以這樣的條文不是那麼適宜嗎"},{"start":471.042,"end":485.449,"text":"會在未來連外國我們都不能去參加文通不能去交流不能去學術交流那這樣的話我們台灣不變鎖國了嗎我想刑法的修訂會很慎重一定會符合明確性跟比例原則所以一定要慎重好嗎好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":649,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時37分）謝謝主席。我們請陸委會梁副主委及法務部黃世杰次長。"],["主席：請副主委及次長。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好！"],["許委員宇甄：副主委、次長，兩位好！根據國家安全局在今年1月12日發布的共諜案滲透手法分析，你可以看到，我們這短短4年來成長了3倍。面對這麼嚴峻的滲透情勢，特別是民進黨內部被滲透得那麼厲害，包括總統府、立法院、國安會、外交部、民進黨黨部，在4月9日的民進黨中常會，賴清德總統為了防堵民進黨黨工被滲透，而提出要研擬急難救助辦法。我想要問的是總統心中的國家安全難道只限於黨工的安全嗎？同樣是因為經濟困難、債務壓力而淪為對岸滲透對象的普通國人難道不值得國家提供急難救助嗎？在這邊我想請教一下梁副主委，有多少被起訴的共諜是因為債務問題而被迫協助對岸，陸委會是否掌握這群社會弱勢、經濟困難的族群比例？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：具體的數字，我們手上沒有，但是確實有很多個案就像我剛才講的，是為了蠅頭小利，特別是發生在志願役士兵的個案，他們常常是因為網路博弈或是打電玩，這個金額其實都不高……"],["許委員宇甄：副主委，不過在4月9日的中常會也提到，事實上，民進黨黨工被賄賂的金額比軍人還高，賴清德總統認為經濟弱勢是滲透的破口，所以他要設立黨工的急難救助辦法。請問副主委，政府要不要也設立一個這樣的急難救助辦法，來因應因為債務問題、經濟困難而成為滲透目標的國人？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我不太知道那個對黨工的部分，但是我剛剛向委員報告，我們現在發生的很多是在軍隊裡面，他們就是因為欠了一些債，因為網路博弈或打電玩……"],["許委員宇甄：因為債務問題，剛剛梁副主委也承認是有這樣的問題，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我覺得這個國防部要想一個辦法，就是要理解……"],["許委員宇甄：我現在請教您的是除了國防部之外，其實我們看到目前有被爆出來，甚至收押禁見交保的，幾乎都是民進黨的，不管是黨工，或者是在總統府、立法院、國安會、外交部曾經服務過的。針對這個部分，我剛剛提到，我們的賴清德總統，同時也是賴清德主席，提出其實應該要設立一個急難救助辦法。你覺得我們的政府有沒有考慮要適用這樣子的急難救助辦法？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我覺得急難救助應該是對所有人，只要是弱勢，就應該要急難救助，但是……"],["許委員宇甄：對，如果以這樣的一個推論。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：但是用急難救助來處理或是預防間諜行為，我覺得可能比較困難一點，因為……"],["許委員宇甄：不過這個是賴清德總統所提出的喔！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：因為很多做間諜的人可能還是商人……"],["許委員宇甄：對，但是這個是賴清德總統所提出的喔！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：可能是商人，就是本身蠻有錢，但是他還要追求更大的利益，這種人也很多啦！"],["許委員宇甄：對，所以現在是民進黨的才可以有這樣子的待遇，一般人是不行嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不是，因為我不太知道民進黨的措施是什麼，所以這個我沒辦法回答。"],["許委員宇甄：您可以去看一下，在4月9日的民進黨中常會有提出這樣的討論。我們也希望如果真的是這樣的話，應該要一視同仁，不該只有民進黨的黨工有這樣的急難救助，甚至剛剛有提到，如果今天是臺商因為經濟困難而被迫協助對岸蒐集資料，陸委會會不會提供他急難救助，還是直接用反滲透法辦理？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：臺商通常不是因為經濟困難，而是想要謀求更大的利益。"],["許委員宇甄：這樣子陸委會會用反滲透法辦理嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：看他具體觸犯什麼。"],["許委員宇甄：我想司法的標準應該要一致，不可以對於民進黨黨工就這樣溫柔對待，對於國人就嚴刑峻法。","另外，想請教一下梁副主委，我們剛剛看到您的報告，既然陸委會這麼關心國家安全法的修法，可是我今天看到就只有本院委員提出的修法版本，沒有行政院版，請問何時可以提出行政院版的草案？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：現在正在加緊腳步，所以……"],["許委員宇甄：大概預計何時會提出行政院版本？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我想會用最快的時間，因為這個案子牽涉到各個部門，所以由行政院負責統合，我沒有辦法幫行政院回答，但是會加快腳步。"],["許委員宇甄：因為如果沒有行政院版本的話，大家會認為是在打假球。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是，也拜託委員，到時候如果行政院提案的話，可以讓它付委。"],["許委員宇甄：如果行政院提案是符合全民利益的話，如果行政院提案是……"],["梁副主任委員文傑：那絕對、絕對。"],["許委員宇甄：請教一下兩位，就國安法第二條的規定，「任何人不得為外國、大陸地區、香港、澳門、境外敵對勢力或其所設立或實質控制之各類組織、機構、團體或其派遣之人為下列行為」，其中第一款的規定，這一次有委員提案要求增加「或為其組織、機構、團體之成員或參與其活動」，請問梁副主委，這個是要限制參與活動，也就是要全面禁止兩岸交流嗎？要取消兩岸雙城論壇嗎？要取消宗教交流、學術交流嗎？請問一下，針對這樣的意見，陸委會支持這樣的修法嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我快速回答一下，因為現在國安法第二條只處罰發展組織的人……"],["許委員宇甄：對。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：但是加入組織的人沒有懲罰，所以……"],["許委員宇甄：還有參加活動，他現在要修正的是「參加活動」。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，因為加入組織，所以會參加活動，或是藉由參加活動來加入組織，所以對我們來說，加入組織的人一定要受到懲罰，因為過去很多案子都是只處罰……"],["許委員宇甄：我現在請教您的是這個修法針對要參與活動的，所以未來是不是要取消兩岸雙城論壇？未來是不是要取消宗教交流？未來是不是要取消學術交流？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不是，它一定要符合這個組織的概念，所以不會因為單純的活動。"],["許委員宇甄：OK，以這一條來說，我們可以看到是「任何人不得為外國」，不只大陸地區，還有外國，那是不是我們跟外國的交流也都會受到限制，這樣臺灣會不會真的變成鎖國的狀態？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我想不太可能，在第二條的修正，以目前行政院各部門的態度來講，就是要把參與組織的加進去，如果只是單純的活動，或是加入國外的某一個……"],["許委員宇甄：可是這樣的法條限制的話，已經讓人家覺得，今天去參加一個宗教交流活動、一個學術交流活動就有可能違反國家安全法，這個部分是不是可以請次長回復一下？"],["黃次長世杰：我想我們在今天的意見裡面都有很明確的說明，就是剛才梁副主委有提到，參與組織的部分目前是一個漏洞，但是就具體的構成要件跟文字我們還會再研議，不是以今天委員提案的文字版本為準。"],["許委員宇甄：對，所以這樣的條文你也認為不是那麼適宜嘛！"],["黃部長世杰：是，我們會在這個方向上再去……"],["許委員宇甄：這樣等於未來連外國我們都不能去參加文化交流，不能去學術交流，這樣的話我們臺灣不是變鎖國了嗎？"],["黃部長世杰：跟委員報告，我想刑法的修訂會很慎重，一定會符合明確性跟比例原則。"],["許委員宇甄：所以一定要慎重，好嗎？"],["黃部長世杰：是。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：丁學忠、丁學忠、丁學忠委員不在。","請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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任何能夠加強國家安全的措施那各位委員所提出來的法條我們都很支持謝謝好"},{"start":256.86,"end":274.982,"text":"因為北溪這邊手上有一個一份資料,我們的海型同仁在海型服役期間因為在網路接觸到中國主動聯繫,聯繫他們提供的叫做泰達幣,就是虛擬貨幣"},{"start":277.128,"end":289.669,"text":"所以說包括海型這個部分,我們覺得這個滲透尤其是公務部門以及我們的海型跟金裝,我相信"},{"start":292.437,"end":306.362,"text":"這絕對不是一個少數啦,既然把這個弄出來,應該還有很多類似的案件所以這是我們未來要怎樣去防範,不然這真的未來會越來越嚴重"},{"start":310.008,"end":330.562,"text":"委員講得非常正確就是說現在很多都是用利誘而且是小利我們覺得是有點痛心因為其實所牽涉的利益都不是很大但是就是會有人願意上鉤被吸收然後現在支付利益的方式"},{"start":331.803,"end":359.164,"text":"又越來越多然後現在所謂虛擬貨幣等等那對查緝的就是說對查緝的工作造成很大困難這樣那所以我們還是希望希望說各位委員能夠支持那未來的這個國家安全法或相關法律都能夠能夠加強謝謝本席一定支持啦我們就是要從重重演現在去制定好不好好謝謝"},{"start":364.002,"end":364.043,"text":"謝謝大家"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":633,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（10時30分）召委、我們與會同仁好，請陸委會副主委。"],["主席：好，請副主委。"],["吳委員琪銘：法務部的黃次長。"],["主席：好，請黃次長。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：副主委你好。針對今天國安法的修法，今天早上我看到很多委員都有提出各種看法，其實在我們的國家安全尤其在滲透部分，在最近跟過去實在非常嚴重，這也是需要大家來對國家的安全，一定要更加緊密的討論，所以本席還是站在……不管在野兩黨大家提出的意見，其實有很多都可以讓陸委會、法務部及相關單位，包括國安會，大家共同來制定一套比較符合臺灣需要的法令，因為大家都知道臺灣有兩岸的問題存在，所以為了我們國家的安全也是需要大家共同提出。","我看共諜案起訴的人數有159人，已經威脅到國家的安全，但還有很多是沒有起訴，所以一定要修這法條，希望陸委會或法務部要擬定政策，在時間內把行政院版趕快訂定出來；針對其他的部分，我們今天的共識，大家帶回去趕快研議一套符合我們臺灣的需要，好不好？請法務部說明。"],["黃次長世杰：是，謝謝委員的支持。剛才我們也有提到賴總統宣布之後，事實上，行政院已經啟動整體各機關全面來檢視的這個動作，今天各位委員所提示相關的議題，我們也都會帶回去，在這個研議的過程中，儘速研擬並提出，以上跟委員報告。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，一定要從重從嚴，才能夠嚇阻這個滲透，因為我們臺灣畢竟是一個島型的國家，不容許有滲透的問題，所以這個部分也要拜託；再來，這次我看有很多我們的同仁提出的版本，像是國安法第二條、第三條及第四條的修正，都值得我們大家共同來討論；現在請教陸委會副主委，未來針對滲透的部分，陸委會要怎樣的有效的嚇阻？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：目前陸委會主要還是依照兩岸人民關係條例辦理，但是兩岸人民關係條例主要是一些行政罰，行政罰的嚇阻力量不高，而反滲透法其實有一些規定，但是它相對的範圍比較窄，反滲透法主要是規定在選舉期間，中共的資金去影響候選人，但是所規範的時間很短，規範的活動範圍很窄，所以我剛剛一再講，國家安全的相關事項非常多，中共的滲透行為你說得出100項，他一定可以想出101項，所以這個部分，從陸委會的立場，我們贊成或支持任何能夠加強國家安全的措施，各位委員所提出來的法條，我們都很支持，謝謝。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，本席手上有一份資料，就是我們海巡同仁於服役期間在網路接觸到中國籍人士主動連繫，他們提供的是泰達幣，就是虛擬貨幣，所以我們覺得滲透，尤其在公務部門，包括海巡、軍中，我相信絕對不是少數，既然這個揭露出來，應該還有很多類似的案件，所以我們未來要怎樣去防範，不然未來這真的會越來越嚴重？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員講得非常正確！現在很多都是用利誘，而且是小利，我們覺得是有點痛心，因為其實所牽涉到的利益都不是很大，但是就是會有人願意上鉤、被吸收，然後現在支付利益的方式又越來越多，有所謂虛擬貨幣等等，對查緝的工作造成很大的困難，所以我們還是希望各位委員能夠支持，未來國家安全法或相關法律都能夠加強，謝謝。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，本席一定支持，我們就是要從重從嚴去制定，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：謝謝。"],["黃次長世杰：謝謝。"],["主席：請許宇甄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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這我知道啊沒有關係 因為是關於刑法的部分那我們不能說我們代表行政院回答但是這個基本的立場我們可知贊同以上你說這個立場法務部是贊同的那很奇怪啊因為我上個禮拜"},{"start":188.627,"end":202.083,"text":"這是要法治委員會質詢法務部部長啊我直接問部長啊說洩密給中國要加重處罰這件事情啊結果部長含糊其詞欸跟今天國土辦的立場一樣欸那今天你是次長"},{"start":203.431,"end":227.756,"text":"市長代表法務部表示贊成就對了我想這個部分因為還是要經過法制作業的研議程序所以呢所以是在沒有經過法制作業的研議程序你個人表示贊成就對了所以你是個人贊成還是代表法務部贊成還是代表行政院贊成我個人的意見你個人意見嘛好來我一次講啦讓跨部會的代表帶意見回去給行政院"},{"start":228.632,"end":248.571,"text":"我向來的主張啊 洩密給中國 刑度就是要加重處罰但我覺得很奇怪啊 我從第九屆國會的時候再修國家安全法 再修國家機密保護法民進黨所展現出來的態度是什麼 都反對啦 都反對啦"},{"start":249.651,"end":274.519,"text":"上面這些都有當初協商的紀錄啦有我跟邱泰山尋答的紀錄啊全部都反對說泄密給中國不用加重處罰我從第九屆國會的時候看到這個立法態度我就覺得很奇怪啊中國是我們最大的外患泄密給中國加重處罰有什麼錯為什麼為什麼民進黨表示反對"},{"start":275.95,"end":291.422,"text":"到這一屆國會的時候我們所提出的國家機密保護法一樣泄密給中國談到民眾黨黨團所提出來的修法加重處罰泄密給中國跟泄密給我們的盟友處罰就是應該不一樣"},{"start":293.12,"end":311.816,"text":"最重要的政策立場我到目前為止整個行政院沒有看到這樣子一個清楚的表態這是立法程序作業的問題嗎這應該是立法政策的問題嘛你立法政策要定了你立法政策要定了接下來在法條的設計上"},{"start":313.257,"end":338.288,"text":"都是相對簡單的問題啦好 今天針對有關於啊洩密給中國我們在法定型的處理上 所謂法定型回到今天討論的國家安全法就第七條 第八條的規定嘛洩密給中國不管是機密 不管是公務上的秘密不管是關鍵基礎設施上面陰秘密的事項法定型都調高法務部贊不贊成"},{"start":340.3,"end":368.169,"text":"我想這個部的意見還是要經過這個研究所以今天沒有辦法表態 來 陸委會贊不贊成我們陸委會對於任何增強國家安全的那個方法跟措施我們都贊成所以呢 副主委你回答得非常易數啊那你就直接講你贊成就好了嘛我個人贊成你市長個人贊成 副主委個人也贊成 來國土辦的贊不贊成"},{"start":370.532,"end":396.889,"text":"就我們主管的關鍵基礎設施防護裡面因為也有相關的法令規定所以當然我們做這樣的一個認同好 我們接下來處理法案的時候就見證章了啦我希望到處理的時候行政部門不要推三阻四的說還要再研議接下來第二個重要的問題剛有其他的委員問到現在綠色共諜橫行府院黨全部都淪陷了"},{"start":398.009,"end":422.187,"text":"當然執政黨的委員幫執政黨講話這個我都可以理解我也沒有怪執政黨的委員但我們現在要討論的重要的問題是什麼重要的問題是當我開始追這件事情的時候我看到的是什麼我看到的事情是依照現行的辦法這些可以接觸到機密的人要喊請法務部調查局辦理特殊查核但問題是就沒辦嗎就沒辦嗎"},{"start":425.939,"end":434.765,"text":"應該辦理特殊查核 卻沒有辦理特殊查核來 請教一下行政院的立場應該辦 卻沒有辦 要不要追究責任還是這個要請法務部次長回答應該辦 沒有辦 要不要追究責任因為這個部分所涉及的機關首長也不是我們我們是受理 調查局是受理連一個基本態度都不敢給喔"},{"start":455.046,"end":468.188,"text":"如果有違私的話當然要辦啦好如果有違私的話當然要辦來怎麼辦依照現行法法律的效果應該要辦特殊查核卻沒有辦特殊查核法律效果是什麼來請教一下"},{"start":471.66,"end":491.064,"text":"這個是公務人員服務法的規定所以咧應該要辦沒有辦嘛那法律效果是什麼這顯然非常重大的國安漏洞嘛應該要辦特殊查核沒有辦特殊查核結果搞到去洩密洩密給共匪責任可以不用追究嗎來請教次長"},{"start":495.232,"end":512.761,"text":"呃 這個部分應該是人事主管法規所以你也沒辦法回答嘛好 沒關係我下面的意見喔 三位再帶回去啦我也不曉得今天這個詢答到底是怎麼排的找了三個人來沒有一個人有辦法代表這個法的主管機關行政院講話我具體的意見啦 是這個樣子"},{"start":514.224,"end":529.95,"text":"這些該辦沒有辦特殊查核的從外交部到總統府我具體的意見啦是沒有依法辦特殊查核的出發要有明確的法律效果沒有明確的法律效果大家都在混嘛"},{"start":530.871,"end":556.943,"text":"全部的人都在混啊發現應該辦沒有辦誰要負責國家足球隊又出來啦踢來踢去那我就問一個最核心的關鍵法律問題應該辦沒有辦的法律效果是什麼現行法複製缺乳我代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團在這邊直接講針對這件事情重大法律上面的缺漏必須要可與罰則這件事情我們會提出啊修正的動議把它補強好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":580,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時21分）謝謝主席，有請陸委會副主委、法務部政次以及國土安全辦的主任。"],["主席：好。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：三位都上來了？時間的關係，不一一問候。一開始，國家安全法的主管機關是哪一個機關？"],["黃次長世杰：報告委員，是行政院。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院嘛！所以今天由誰代表行政院發言？"],["林主任傑：報告委員，今天院裡面有國土安全辦公室跟……"],["黃委員國昌：OK。第一個問題，中國對臺灣的敵意，我相信所有的人都知道，目前對臺灣的國家安全造成最大威脅的就是中華人民共和國，政策上面的立場洩密給中華人民共和國，跟洩密給一般的外國刑罰應該要予以區別對待，講得更具體一點，洩密給中華人民共和國應該要加重處罰。這件事情，行政院的立場如何？我剛特別請可以代表行政院立場的人上來回答這個問題，行政院贊不贊成？"],["林主任傑：報告委員，這個涉及到內部還要再做一些討論。"],["黃委員國昌：還要討論？我們討論非常久了。"],["林主任傑：跟委員報告，今天國土辦出席，主要是因為涉及到關鍵基礎設施的事項來出席。"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？剛剛我就問了，可以代表行政院發言的是誰？要不然各個部會、國家足球隊踢來踢去的，喊說中國是我們的境外敵對勢力，對境外敵對勢力，我說洩密給他們要加重處罰，怎麼每一個人都畏畏縮縮的？行政院到現在你剛剛的回答是這件事情還要研議，是不是？"],["林主任傑：跟委員報告……"],["黃委員國昌：還需要研議多久？"],["林主任傑：涉及到跨部會的事項，我們在通案……"],["黃委員國昌：跨部會的事項，剛剛不是講得很清楚了嗎？這個主管機關是行政院，今天行政院是由你代表回答，我有說錯嗎？"],["林主任傑：報告委員，今天因為這個涉及到院的其他部分，我沒辦法代為回答。"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪，今天國家安全法第二條也好、第三條也好、第七條也好、第八條也好，全部涉及的條文，如果主管機關是行政院的話，今天誰代表行政院回答？是法務部嗎？還是陸委會？還是沒有人可以代表？要不然今天辦這個質詢有什麼意義，是由法務部代表嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：委員，今天的邀請名單是由內政委員會提供的。"],["黃委員國昌：這我知道啊！"],["黃次長世杰：我們是受邀來的，但沒有關係，關於這個刑罰的部分，我們不能說我們代表行政院回答，但是這個基本的立場，我們表示贊同，以上。"],["黃委員國昌：你說這個立場法務部是贊同的？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：那很奇怪，因為我上個禮拜在司法及法制委員會質詢法務部部長，我直接問部長說洩密給中國要加重處罰這件事情，結果部長含糊其辭，跟今天國土辦的立場一樣。今天你是次長，次長代表法務部表示贊成就對了？"],["黃次長世杰：我想這個部分，因為還是要經過法制作業的研議程序，所以目前沒有結論。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是在沒有經過法制作業的研議程序，你個人表示贊成就對了？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你是個人贊成，還是代表法務部贊成，還是代表行政院贊成？"],["黃次長世杰：我個人的意見。"],["黃委員國昌：你個人意見嘛！好，來，我一次講，讓跨部會的代表帶意見回去給行政院。我向來的主張，洩密給中國刑度就是要加重處罰，但我覺得很奇怪，從第9屆國會在修國家安全法、在修國家機密保護法，民進黨所展現出來的態度是什麼？都反對啦！上面這些都有當初協商的紀錄，有我跟邱太三詢答的紀錄，全部都反對，說是洩密給中國，不用加重處罰。我從第9屆國會看到這種立法態度，就覺得很奇怪，中國是我們最大的外患，洩密給中國加重處罰有什麼錯，為什麼民進黨表示反對？到這一屆國會，我們所提出的國家機密保護法，一樣洩密給中國，台灣民眾黨黨團所提出來的修法是加重處罰，洩密給中國跟洩密給我們盟友的處罰就是應該不一樣，這重要的政策立場，我到目前為止，整個行政院沒有看到可以這樣清楚的表態，這個是立法程序作業的問題嗎？這應該是立法政策的問題嘛！你立法政策要定了，接下來在法條的設計上，都是相對簡單的問題。","好，今天針對有關於洩密給中國，我們在法定刑的處理上，所謂法定刑，回到今天討論的國家安全法，就第七條及第八條的規定，洩密給中國不管是機密、不管是公務上的秘密、不管是關鍵基礎設施上面應秘密的事項，法定刑都調高，法務部贊不贊成？"],["黃次長世杰：我想法務部的意見還是要經過研究及討論的程序。"],["黃委員國昌：所以今天沒有辦法表態？"],["黃次長世杰：對，沒辦法表態。"],["黃委員國昌：來，陸委會贊不贊成？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：陸委會對於任何增強國家安全的方法跟措施，我們都贊成。"],["黃委員國昌：所以副主委回答的非常藝術，就直接講你贊成就好了嘛！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我個人贊成。"],["黃委員國昌：次長個人贊成，副主委個人也贊成，請問國土辦贊不贊成？"],["林主任傑：就我們主管的關鍵基礎設施防護裡，因為已有相關的法令規定，當然我們做這樣的一個認同。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們接下來處理法案就見真章了啦！我希望屆時處理的時候，行政部門不要推三阻四的說：還要再研議。","接下來，第二個重要的問題，剛有其他的委員提到，現在綠色共諜橫行，府院黨全部都淪陷了，當然執政黨的委員幫執政黨講話，這個我都可以理解，我也沒有怪執政黨的委員，但我們現在要討論重要的問題是什麼？重要的問題是當我開始追這件事情的時候，我看到的是什麼？我看到的是依照現行的辦法，這些可以接觸到機密的人，要函請法務部調查局辦理特殊查核，但問題是就沒辦啊！應該辦理特殊查核卻沒有辦理特殊查核。來，請教一下行政院的立場，應該辦卻沒有辦要不要追究責任？還是要請法務部次長回答，應該辦沒有辦要不要追究責任？"],["黃次長世杰：因為這個部分所涉及的機關首長也不是我們，我們調查局是受理……"],["黃委員國昌：連一個基本態度都不敢給喔！"],["黃次長世杰：如果有違失的話，當然要辦，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：好，如果有違失的話，當然要辦，要怎麼辦？依照現行法，法律的效果應該要辦特殊查核卻沒有辦特殊查核，法律效果是什麼？來，請教一下。"],["黃次長世杰：這個是公務人員服務法的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？應該要辦沒有辦嘛！法律效果是什麼？這顯然是非常重大的國安漏洞，應該要辦特殊查核，沒有辦特殊查核，結果搞到去洩密給共匪，責任可以不用追究嗎？來，請教次長。"],["黃次長世杰：這個部分應該是人事主管法規。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你也沒辦法回答嘛！"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒關係。我下面的意見請三位帶回去，我也不曉得今天這個詢答到底是怎麼排的？找來的三個人，沒有一個人有辦法代表這個法的主管機關行政院講話，我具體的意見是這個樣子，這些該辦沒有辦特殊查核的，從外交部到總統府，我具體的意見是，沒有依法辦特殊查核的「處罰」，要有明確的法律效果，如果沒有明確的法律效果，大家都在混嘛！全部的人都在混啊！發現應該辦沒有辦，誰要負責？國家足球隊又出來了，踢來踢去，我就問一個最核心的關鍵法律問題，應該辦沒有辦的法律效果是什麼？現行法付之闕如，我代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團在這邊直接講，針對這件重大法律上面的缺漏，必須要科予罰則這件事情，我們會提出修正動議把它補強，好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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請副主委是 委員好主委 各位在這個過程當中我們的官法有的人覺得他提議出來這條不好 那條不好有的人覺得那條要改 那條要改我們今天"},{"start":27.364,"end":34.09,"text":"我們可以拜託大家來探討 為了中華民國的台灣 法律可以更好不是越修越慢 說的全都要做的 是沒辦法的每一個提出的司法 我們都尊重"},{"start":53.288,"end":58.892,"text":"因為國家有國家的法律所以我們今天的想法會講到國安法要如何來修正的時候來修這個法律的時候本身是覺得非常重要剛才副主委也說過我們的組織組織本身有做到你沒做到你那個人比組織的人"},{"start":80.248,"end":83.15,"text":"在這個過程當中國家會不好啦因為我覺得一個國家你不管是怎樣想法就是我們想不到的,路到不到的最近你看中國怎樣如何讓人打壓的心,如何利用"},{"start":104.662,"end":113.604,"text":"我們的臺灣人來攻擊中華民國的臺灣人這是非常嚴重的在這裡面你有看到我們最近正在作弊跟問題嗎來請副主委你回答一下我要報告我剛剛就講其實我們國安法它的規範的範圍其實很窄對其實很窄對那我舉個例子譬如說"},{"start":133.574,"end":148.665,"text":"如果譬如說何韻詩小姐香港那位何韻詩她曾經在來台灣被某些人潑妻那我們知道背後可能有指使但是潑妻的這個行為"},{"start":150.404,"end":165.089,"text":"他顯然是在我們看來他就有害國家安全因為他是針對特定的人士然後因為特定的政治主張但是在我們國安法裡面這個就沒有規範"},{"start":166.329,"end":170.653,"text":"我的意思就是說我們國安法確實是很窄它只處罰說發展組織跟刺探機密就只有這兩種但是國家安全絕對不只是這兩種"},{"start":184.185,"end":199.115,"text":"所以我們陸委會的立場就是對於委員對於社會上所要提出的任何的加強國安法的這些我們都是贊成支持的,謝謝因為在本席跟你談到,覺得一個國家如果要補充就很簡單"},{"start":204.977,"end":207.878,"text":"一個國家可以經典和國際來撤兵的時候,那是不簡單的啦尤其中華民國的台灣,說實在,我們的認識非常強硬在中國利用藏人來到我們北海的時候,這是非常的嚴重啦"},{"start":228.032,"end":232.034,"text":"最近我們也看到港鐵 我都覺得你的廢鐵不管是在哪裡的生育費我們都一定是要辦、要做的啦這才是有負擔的國家啦因為有的人說 不敢說因為民進黨會把你們的資金所有的供費、廢鐵都在你們旁邊你們自己處理不好"},{"start":256.384,"end":276.979,"text":"這次是這樣說的,我覺得不對,不管他是在哪裡都一定要辦,是不是這樣來?是,所以我們在法律上面也是要收款,所以我們很努力的在做,但是法律的授權不足,法律涵蓋的範圍不足"},{"start":278.56,"end":286.267,"text":"所以就拜託各位委員如果可以幫忙我們做一些改進或是增強 我們都很歡迎"},{"start":287.526,"end":291.891,"text":"對啦 因為今天想 我們這次想想這個法例 希望大家有意見 提出來探討 提出來講因為 我覺得 既然你做公務人員也好 做民運代表中央的國會的委員也好 你要去告"},{"start":308.467,"end":310.449,"text":"帝國的時候要到中國的時候說不用報備我都想不到是在怕什麼是在煩惱什麼因為我覺得"},{"start":321.575,"end":346.082,"text":"寶貝 他說我沒心沒力 我要來這個國家這樣有什麼問題嗎 有什麼好處嗎來 副主委你回答一下關於立法委員附入審查的問題其實我們兩岸條例的規定就是說這個要由立法院要提出名單然後交給主管機關"},{"start":348.763,"end":370.851,"text":"那這麼多年來其實五院裡面像監察院司法院一些法官碰到有國安案件的他們也都會提出來那監察院裡面有碰到國安案件的這些監委然後包括他委員會裡面的工作人員等等監察院也會提出名單給我們那這些都是要審查的"},{"start":371.411,"end":391.172,"text":"那但是這麼多年來 其實立法院從來沒有提出過名單從來沒有從來沒有那所以對我們來說的話 這個就是造成很大的困擾等於是兩岸條例有規定 請各機關提出名單 但是因為立法院從來沒提"},{"start":393.094,"end":397.397,"text":"因為本席跟你談到這一個是說 所了解是怎樣不愛客的範圍裡面我也讓蘇貞霞聽到沒有廣東的立委的說你不要讓我們去 先來你們說 再回來跟報備我說聽差一點 跟你要去做什麼你不用報備 再回來跟說的 再講一個"},{"start":421.494,"end":448.889,"text":"沒有意義的事情所以你要怎麼可以我們如果沒有那個法如果他沒有報備你也沒辦法其實我們對於譬如說縣市長然後如果是立委的如果立委的話我們這些審查我們都基本上是尊重也就是說雖然說是審查 尊重啦雖然說是審查但是其實是報備 難怪有人說你整個很大實在有人要報不報啦"},{"start":450.35,"end":453.552,"text":"但是我的感覺是覺得現在的報紙也很方便的直播也很方便的什麼人有期待一個國家什麼人有期待一個國家應該大家都看到啦我的感覺是覺得應該要有信請才可以去因為是怎樣那個國家對中華民國的台灣太壞了啦不管是"},{"start":479.025,"end":482.81,"text":"又要讓我們挑戰,不管是要說我們的排位啦所以在這個環境裡面,我覺得這一點我們要繼續堅持下去,繼續提出我們的提案你看三百多次了"},{"start":496.749,"end":499.091,"text":"當然我們還是要繼續我們要互相加油因為台灣這個土地中華民國不能讓憂心人被我們破壞了以上是 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":548,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時12分）主席，請陸委會副主委。"],["主席：好，請副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：主委早安。主委，在討論國安法的過程當中，對於我們的國安法，有的人提出這條不好、那條不好，有人也覺得這條要改、那條要改，今天召委排這個議程就是希望大家可以好好探討，為了讓中華民國臺灣的法律可以更好，不是越修越差，說的都是道理，卻什麼都沒做。講難聽一點，我們對每一個提出的修法都予以尊重，因為國家有國家的法律，所以今天提到國安法要如何修正的時候，本席也覺得這是非常重要的。","剛剛副主委也說了，這個組織本身有罪，但加入沒有罪，加入的人比組織的人還要惡劣，在這個過程當中，國家不會好，因為我覺得一個國家不管怎麼修法，就是希望修正我們之前沒修到的漏洞。最近你看中國對我們的打壓，他們是如何利用我們臺灣人來攻擊中華民國的臺灣人，這是非常嚴重的，你有看到我們最近在這方面的遭遇跟問題嗎？來，請副主委回答一下。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：跟委員報告，我剛剛就講，其實我們國安法規範的範圍很窄……"],["王委員美惠：對。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我舉個例子，譬如像香港的何韻詩小姐，她曾經在臺灣被某些人潑漆，我們知道背後可能有人指使……"],["王委員美惠：對。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：但是潑漆這個行為，在我們看來他就有害國家安全，因為他是針對特定人士，因為特定的政治主張。"],["王委員美惠：對。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：但是在我們國安法裡面，這個就沒有規範。"],["王委員美惠：對啊！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：意思就是說……"],["王委員美惠：所以沒有規範，我們這一點不就要來補充？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我的意思是國安法確實是很窄，他只處罰發展組織跟刺探機密，就只有這兩種，但是國家安全絕對不只是這兩種，所以陸委會的立場，就是對於社會上所提出任何加強國安法的這些建議，我們都是贊成、支持的，謝謝。"],["王委員美惠：在本席跟你探討是覺得如果要搞垮一個國家很簡單，一個國家可以堅強跟國際來拚鬥的時候，那是不簡單的，尤其中華民國臺灣，說實在我們的韌性非常強，不過在中國利用他人來破壞我們的時候，這是非常嚴重，最近我們看到也說過，我覺得匪諜不管是在誰的身邊，我們都一定要辦、要做，這才是有擔當的國家。","有的人說因為民進黨你們執政，所有匪諜都在你們的旁邊，你們自己還處理不好，難道是這樣說的嗎？我覺得不對，不管他是在哪裡，都一定要辦，是不是這樣？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是，所以我們在法律上也是要被授權。我們很努力的在做，但是法律的授權不足、法律涵蓋的範圍不足，所以拜託各位委員，如果可以幫忙我們做一些改進或是增強，我們都很歡迎。"],["王委員美惠：對，因為今天質詢要修這個法，希望大家有意見拿出來探討，我覺得不管做公務人員也好，做民意代表或是國會的委員也好，你要去敵國中國的時候說不用報備，我都想不通是在怕什麼、是在煩惱什麼？我覺得報備什麼時候要來這個國家，這樣有什麼問題嗎？有什麼好怕的嗎？副主委，你回答一下。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：關於立法委員赴陸審查的問題，兩岸條例的規定就是要由立法院自己提出名單，然後交給主管機關。這麼多年來，其實五院裡面，像監察院、司法院，一些法官碰到有關案件的，他們也都會提出來。監察院有碰到國安案件的這些監委，包括他委員會裡面的工作人員等等，監察院也會提出名單給我們，這些都是要審查的，但是這麼多年來，其實立法院從來沒有提出過名單給我們。"],["王委員美惠：從來都沒有提出過。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，從來沒有，所以對我們來說，這個就造成很大的困擾，也就是兩岸條例有規定請各機關提出名單，但是立法院從來沒提。"],["王委員美惠：本席跟你探討這個問題，就我所了解為什麼不提名單，我也有私底下聽到不同黨的立委說「先跟你們說，你就會不讓我們去，所以回來再報備」。我說天差地遠，你要去做什麼不用報備嗎？回來才報備，這是沒意義的事情，所以如果沒有法律規定，他如果沒有報備，你也拿他沒辦法。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對於譬如縣市長、立委，我們這些審查基本上都是尊重，也就是說，雖然說是審查……"],["王委員美惠：尊重啦！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：雖然說是審查，但是其實是報備。"],["王委員美惠：難怪有人說立委很大，他們隨便要不要報。不過我感覺是現在的直播也很方便，誰有去哪一個國家，應該大家都看得到，我覺得應該要申請才可以去，因為那個國家對臺灣太差了，不管是跟我們挑戰、說我們的壞話，所以在這個環境裡面，我覺得我們要再繼續堅持下去，再繼續提出我們的提案，三百多次了都擋下來，就算擋下來我們也還要再繼續。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["王委員美惠：我們互相加油，因為臺灣這塊土地，中華民國不能讓有心人把我們破壞掉，以上。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：請黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我們先請盧委會副主委請副主委是 委員好"},{"start":9.315,"end":31.388,"text":"好 副主委 先跟你請教 你覺得國安法有修正的必要嗎當然有為什麼呢我舉個例子 因為像譬如說像第二條我們只處罰發展組織 為中共發展組織的發展這個主持人或是發起人但是在很多案例之中我們看到很荒謬就是說發起人被判罪 但是"},{"start":32.469,"end":57.229,"text":"加入組織的人沒事我舉個例子像有一位這個向德恩軍方的有一位向德恩軍官那他加入了中共的組織甚至拍照片然後宣誓要向中共宣誓效忠但是國安法沒有辦法辦他因為他只是加入他不是主持人"},{"start":58.528,"end":80.685,"text":"所以最後是用貪汙罪因為他有收賄 所以是用貪汙罪來辦那所以這個部分呢 我們是認為說如果你只只辦主持人 發展者但是沒有辦加入者這個會造成一個很荒謬的現象所以我們是認為說在第二條裡面要這個"},{"start":83.463,"end":98.796,"text":"參與組織者這個部分我覺得這個應該是有共識的好 謝謝副主委的說明我認為國安法非常有修正的必要是因為就如剛剛副主委說的就是你加入的人明明就有明確的統戰跟滲透的行為但是卻辦不了它是無罪的那包括說前幾個月有四個退將也涉共諜案結果全部無罪那之前甚至有一個我也認為他是共諜檢方也起訴了叫做何建華"},{"start":111.446,"end":125.855,"text":"到處傳我跟小英總統的這個造假的資料然後到處用這個中共的謠言在地方上面打擊我們但是之後也被判無罪也因為證據不足那我認為是非常有有很多空間需要補起來的"},{"start":126.795,"end":148.809,"text":"那甚至今天早上最新的新聞進週刊中共跟台灣的幫派有交流然後甚至是收買然後作為他們的內應在地方上發展所謂的黑幫地圖那甚至大家認定說這個是不是中國奪台的計畫的一部分就在剛剛的新聞大家可以去看一下"},{"start":149.309,"end":175.587,"text":"所以這麼多這麼多的例子就知道說國安法一定要修啊那所以好我們先請副主委先請回請一下我們法務部的次長請教一下國安法既然要修剛剛其實也提到說我們會有版本嗎對什麼時候目前因為有這個跨機關的問題所以我們還會配合行政院的啟程會盡快來提出好那今年有機會嗎"},{"start":176.943,"end":199.454,"text":"應該可以好今年可以那因為這個其實也是賴總統的政策也是全台國人都非常關心的在地方上我也非常常接到民眾擔心的聲音覺得我們國安漏洞太多了那所以在這邊也是務必拜託從行政院到我們法務部大家趕快共商把所有的漏洞補起來好嗎"},{"start":200.154,"end":216.184,"text":"好謝謝次長的說明那再來我要講一下今天既然是要討論國安法裡面的漏洞其實我也看了一下法務部給的意見那首先當然我還是要講一下說大家知道說現在台灣最大的敵對勢力境外敵對勢力就是中國嘛"},{"start":216.704,"end":245.475,"text":"目前唯一一個對台明確的公開說要以武力犯台甚至是公開要侵略台灣的一個國家就是中國那我想這一點無庸置疑可是我很遺憾啦這一點我希望先取得朝野的共識因為在立法院裡面看起來不是朝野都對於反共這件事情有共識我認為非常的遺憾就連昨天在城市委員會都還有人在阻擋立委附中報備這件事情"},{"start":246.255,"end":268.152,"text":"光是沈博洋委員提的立委附中報備就被擋了363次我跟張宏祿召委也提了30次之多每一次都被擋就連這個最基本的防範都做不到那我認為現在的立法院讓國人非常沒有信心所以我希望在這邊還是呼籲所有的朝野立委大家先站出來反共好嗎"},{"start":269.173,"end":296.522,"text":"唯有這個共識我們才可以往下談國安法要不要修反滲透法要不要修兩岸條例要不要修好那再來提到這個法條裡面的內容我就是要講一下說剛剛這個漏洞像剛剛副主委提到的參與者罰不到那我就我手上的例子很多是就是他們有因為他們現在的手法千變萬化然後有很多是多重身份的偽裝然後這種中間人也罰不到"},{"start":297.102,"end":320.735,"text":"那另外一部分是金流金流到現在就算明確感覺到他可能從中共有一些資金的來源但是他可能中間經過各式各樣的虛擬貨幣或是其他讓你有利的方式經過利益輸送可是這種利益輸送很難定義這就是我們現在遇到的困境沒有明確的金流不知道他這個中間人他的身份算不算是統戰分子"},{"start":322.421,"end":338.032,"text":"那這就是我們現在一直在處理的所以我在這邊先請教法務部的初步意見對於這個中間人他們有多重身份偽裝的然後對於這個資金中間的金流沒有辦法明確定義你們有沒有初步的想法我想中間人這個部分"},{"start":339.333,"end":364.915,"text":"這個誠如剛才委員所說的涉及到這個舉證的負擔還有這個要件的問題所以其實我們有在思考但是因為這個具體的案例的延期還需要一點時間所以我們還是會去認真思考這個問題是不是要把這個部分訂進來那因為其實目前各位提案版本裡面其實它比較著重的中間是行為的部分那金流的部分其實可能要再另外再來研議"},{"start":365.535,"end":389.72,"text":"好 這個就要拜託啦因為現在他們提供資金的手法非常的隱蔽而且非常的多重他們可以用各種方式給你利益輸送那就是我認為現在最重要應該要去想辦法找到這個如何定義的部分那最後一點時間那我想要再請法務部可不可以說明一下公務上英秘密的定義公務上英秘密"},{"start":393.567,"end":413.82,"text":"為什麼會這樣問呢?是因為其實去年有一個人叫做馬志維那這個馬志維他在立法院開會的時候跑來直播然後結果直播之後就被發現他涉嫌收購 接受中資來資助然後把國安單位的名片 國安單位的國會聯絡手冊全部送去給中共"},{"start":414.58,"end":439.865,"text":"那結果呢檢方當然有認為他洩密嘛認為他的主他說這些名片跟因為後來被說這些名片跟名冊不是國家機密所以就沒有辦法去定罪他那我認為這是這個是不是應該要明確定義到底什麼樣叫做公務秘密呢公務秘密的這個認定的範圍事實上是比所謂的國家機密還要廣"},{"start":440.985,"end":465.849,"text":"那国家机密当然有国家基因保护法相关的程序跟要件那但是公务上因秘密之事项事实上是比这个还要广的但是还是要看各个这个资讯在各个公务机关他们内部如何去认定来做这些事情那所以我们还是要个案的部分我们还是要尊重这个法院审理的结果那这个部分我们会再研议好看怎么样可以用一个更明确的定义去把它包进来"},{"start":466.243,"end":486.72,"text":"好 謝謝次長說明那以上我提的這幾個其實只是冰山一角而已其實因為中共統戰的手法真的太綿密了那所以光是一部國安法可能也很難把所有他們的各種的方式都包進來但是我認為接下來每一部法都有修正的必要應該要慎防統戰好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":519,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時4分）謝謝主席，我們先請陸委會副主委。"],["主席：請副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：好。副主委，先跟你請教，你覺得國安法有修正的必要嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：當然有！"],["黃委員捷：為什麼呢？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我舉個例子，譬如像第二條，我們只處罰為中共發展組織的主持人或是發起人，但是在很多案例之中我們看到很荒謬就是發起人被判罪，但是加入組織的人沒事。我舉個例子，像有一位軍方的向德恩軍官，他加入了中共的組織，甚至拍照片然後要向中共宣誓效忠，但是國安法沒有辦法辦他，因為他只是加入，他不是主持人，最後是用貪污罪，因為他有收賄，所以是用貪污罪來辦，這個部分我們認為，如果只辦主持人、發展者，卻沒有辦加入者，這會造成一個很荒謬的現象，因此我們認為在第二條裡面要有參與組織者，我覺得這個應該是有共識的。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝副主委的說明，我認為國安法非常有修正的必要，因為就如剛剛副主委說的，加入的人明明就有明確的統戰跟滲透行為，但是卻辦不了他，他是無罪的。包括前幾個月有四個退將涉共諜案，結果全部無罪；之前甚至有一個，我也認為他是共諜，檢方也起訴了，他叫做何建華，他到處傳我跟小英總統的造假資料，到處用中共的謠言在地方上打擊我們，但是最後也被判無罪，因為證據不足。我認為有非常多空間是需要補起來的。","今天早上最新的鏡週刊新聞：中共跟臺灣的幫派有交流，甚至是收買他們作為內應，在地方上發展黑幫地圖。大家認為這個是不是中國奪臺計畫的一部分，這個就在剛剛的新聞，大家可以去看一下。所以有這麼多、這麼多的例子，就知道國安法一定要修啊！","好，副主委先請回。本席想請教一下法務部次長，國安法既然要修，剛剛你們也提到你們會有版本嘛？"],["黃次長世杰：對。"],["黃委員捷：什麼時候？"],["黃次長世杰：因為目前有跨機關的問題，所以我們還要配合行政院的期程，會儘快提出。"],["黃委員捷：好，今年有機會嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：應該可以。"],["黃委員捷：好，今年可以，因為這個其實是賴總統的政策，也是全臺國人都非常關心的，我在地方上也常接到民眾擔心的聲音，覺得我們國安漏洞太多了，所以我在這邊拜託，從行政院到法務部，大家務必趕快共商，把所有的漏洞補起來，好嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝次長的說明。再來，我要講一下，今天既然是要討論國安法裡面的漏洞，其實我也看了一下法務部給的意見，首先我當然還是要講一下，大家知道現在臺灣最大的境外敵對勢力就是中國，目前唯一一個明確公開要以武力犯臺，甚至要侵略臺灣的國家就是中國，我想這一點是無庸置疑，可是我很遺憾，我希望先取得朝野的共識，因為在立法院裡面，看起來不是朝野都對於反共這件事情有共識，我認為非常的遺憾。","昨天在程序委員會都還有人在阻擋立委赴中報備這件事情，光是沈伯洋委員提的立委赴中報備就被擋了363次，我跟張宏陸召委也提了30次之多，每一次都被擋，就連這個最基本的防範都做不到。我認為現在的立法院讓國人非常沒有信心，所以我希望在這邊呼籲所有的朝野立委，大家先站出來反共好嗎？唯有這個共識，我們才可以往下談國安法要不要修、反滲透法要不要修、兩岸條例要不要修。","再來提到法條裡面的內容，我要講一下這個漏洞，像剛剛副主委提到的，參與者罰不到，就我手上的例子，很多是……因為現在他們的手法千變萬化，有很多是多重身分的偽裝，這種中間人也罰不到。另外一部分是金流，現在就算明確感覺到他可能有一些中共資金來源，但是中間可能經過各式各樣的虛擬貨幣，或是其他讓你有利的方式，經過利益輸送……可是這種利益輸送很難定義，這就是我們現在遇到的困境，沒有明確的金流，不知道這個中間人的身分算不算是統戰分子，這就是我們現在一直在處理的。所以我在這邊先請教法務部的初步意見，對於這個中間人，他們有多重身分、偽裝的，在資金中間的金流沒有辦法明確定義，你們有沒有初步的想法？"],["黃次長世杰：我想中間人這個部分，誠如剛才委員所說的，涉及到舉證負擔還有要件的問題，其實我們有在思考，但是因為具體案例的研析還需要一點時間，不過我們還是會認真思考這個問題，看是不是要把這個部分定進來。目前各位委員的提案版本其實比較著重於中間行為，至於金流的部分，可能要另外再來研議。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個真的要拜託啦，因為現在他們提供資金的手法非常的隱蔽，而且非常多重，他們可以用各種方式給予利益輸送，所以我認為現在最重要的應該是要想辦法找到如何定義。","最後一點時間，我想要再請法務部說明一下公務上應秘密的定義。"],["黃次長世杰：公務上應秘密？"],["黃委員捷：為什麼會這樣問呢？因為去年有一個人叫做馬治薇，馬治薇在立法院開會的時候跑來直播，結果直播之後就被發現他涉嫌接受中資的資助，把國安單位的名片、國安單位的國會聯絡手冊全部送去給中共，檢方當然認為他洩密，認為他這些名片……後來認為這些名片跟名冊不是國家機密，所以就沒有辦法把他定罪，我認為這個是不是應該要明確定義，到底什麼叫做公務秘密呢？"],["黃次長世杰：事實上公務秘密認定的範圍比國家機密還要廣，國家機密當然有國家機密保護法及相關程序和要件，但公務上應秘密之事項事實上比這個還要廣，還是要看各個資訊在各該公務機關內部如何認定這些事情，我們對於個案還是尊重法院審理的結果，這個部分我們會再研議，看怎麼樣用一個更明確的定義去把它包進來。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝次長的說明，以上我提的這幾個其實只是冰山一角而已，因為中共統戰的手法真的太綿密了，光是一部國安法可能也很難把他們各種方式都包進來。我認為接下來每一部法都有修正的必要，應該要慎防統戰，謝謝。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：好，請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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你回答我的這等於是官話嘛 對不對現在大家就在這邊講 這個是很有可能發生的啊難民就要本於全責啊 對不對你本於全責 你全台灣可能要查一下啊 對不對誰有不法使用 誰有什麼的 你們就要喝止未來可以發生啊這段期間誰有不法使用的這個啊 你們應該要主動查啊"},{"start":192.694,"end":215.967,"text":"對不對 民眾的個資 你如果這樣回答 哇 全台灣人都擔心全台灣人的個資不知道被賣到哪裡去了在行政管理上 當然我們會促請地方政府也要去依照相關法令來做那我們也會來做監督跟做集合你們會做集合 我們看看你們怎麼做"},{"start":221.597,"end":241.82,"text":"來那個副主委那現在啊國安法裡面確實是有一些漏洞有很多的比如說民意代表或什麼的啊去到中國其實他做什麼也都不用特別特別的做審報做什麼也都不用啊是不是"},{"start":243.196,"end":266.273,"text":"報告委員 其實我們國安法不是有漏洞而已其實它涵蓋的層面非常的窄因為它其實只處罰兩種行為一個就是幫中共或敵對勢力竊取機密或是發展組織大概就這兩種行為但我們其實違反國家安全的行為"},{"start":268.563,"end":291.693,"text":"絕對不只這兩種啦大家可以參考一下比如說韓國的國安法它是包括幫北韓政權任何的宣傳行為都是禁止的那所以我們的國安法其實我不太知道說當初的立法緣由但是它其實涵蓋的範圍非常窄處罰的行為也非常有限"},{"start":293.414,"end":308.997,"text":"所以我們的國安法 我個人是認為應該要補正很多東西所以這才是我們今天大家要修法要來說的好 謝謝副主委我請那個次長 次長跟司法院來 我們家的次長司法院"},{"start":319.794,"end":337.71,"text":"我想直接請教一個很實際的問題未來如果軍事法庭恢復了以後若是退伍軍人招募現役軍人進行組織犯罪在同一案的現役軍人跟退役軍人是不是要分開審理還是合併審理"},{"start":340.073,"end":367.711,"text":"跟委員報告因為目前這個軍事審判相關的法案的研議還是由國防部主責那我們是跟他這個協助共同來討論未來要怎麼樣來切分那至於說這個這個相關的範圍還有這個審判權之間如何劃分還有公範的問題其實都還在研議當中那司法院呢報告委員因為軍審法是國防部主管的法規"},{"start":368.561,"end":391.309,"text":"那去了解應該是他們規範的範圍應該是現役軍人那非現役軍人的部分應該還是由普通法院來審理不過細節或規劃方向可能還是要問國防部比較準確所以我剛剛點出來的問題一個退役的一個現役的分開審是不是這樣的意思是不是"},{"start":394.804,"end":406.309,"text":"這個可能詳情要問國防部對啦大概目前了解好沒關係我就是要所以啦有很多的例子我們剛我舉了幾個例子了你說國安法有沒有修正的必要"},{"start":407.535,"end":424.204,"text":"我的結論是這樣啊有那麼多個我剛講的那麼多案例所以國安法真的是有修正的必要啊有的人說這個不需要去修國安法但我認為有這麼多我就舉一個很明顯的例子給大家看了這沒有必要修法嗎"},{"start":425.575,"end":438.54,"text":"次長你要回答我們其實也剛剛在報告裡面要回答委員都有說明至少就這個推幅的機制還有這個剝奪的部分已經在進行還有在關於參與組織的部分我們也在進行好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時56分）我先請陸委會副主委。"],["主席：請陸委會副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：副主委，剛剛也有很多的委員質詢，關於我們今天所說的違反國安的樣態，其實是非常多的，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：沒有錯。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有錯啦！以前都說匪諜在身邊、匪諜在身邊，我們就舉一個最近的例子好了，副主委，如果說連民政處長都可以洩漏個資，其實我們的個資是不是也很有可能早就被洩漏了？你認為有沒有這種可能？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：可能性很大，老實講，我們很多個資是散落在各個政府機關裡面，像戶政系統或者是入出境管理系統、兵役資料的管理等等，基本上所有的這些資料，都是對岸有興趣的資料。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛，所以它最想要的其實就是拿我們這個嘛！","戶政司有沒有人來？我剛剛說的這個，有沒有可能？"],["陳司長永智：是有可能。"],["張委員宏陸：都有可能嘛！"],["陳司長永智：是。"],["張委員宏陸：那你們要查一下啊！"],["陳司長永智：在戶政機關來說，它是利用到所謂戶政系統，其實是屬於個人資料保護法所規範的個人資料，所以必須依照個資法所規定的來蒐集或利用，超出這樣一個法定使用的目的之外，就會有違反個資法的問題。"],["張委員宏陸：戶役政系統裡面，任何人去查這個應該都會留下軌跡吧？"],["陳司長永智：會。"],["張委員宏陸：會嘛！那你們要查一下啊！"],["陳司長永智：這個部分……"],["張委員宏陸：這個問題已經發生了，你知道嗎？"],["陳司長永智：是，跟委員報告……"],["張委員宏陸：已經發生了啊！"],["陳司長永智：是，如果涉及不法的話，現在檢調機關已經在查處。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，那個是檢調機關啦，你們身為戶役政管理系統的管理者，就全部丟給他們？你這樣怎麼保護人民呢？"],["陳司長永智：沒有，我們其實每年都會定期到22個地方政府去做稽核。"],["張委員宏陸：不是啦，你回答我的等於是官話嘛，對不對？現在大家就在這邊講，這個是很有可能發生的，那你們就要本於權責，對不對？你本於權責，全臺灣可能要查一下啊，對不對？誰有不法使用或什麼的，你們就要遏止未來可能發生的事，對於這段期間誰有不法使用的事情，你們應該要主動查，對不對？民眾的個資耶！你如果這樣回答，哇！全臺灣人都要擔心了喔！"],["陳司長永智：在行政上當然……"],["張委員宏陸：全臺灣人的個資，不知道被賣到哪裡去了囉？"],["陳司長永智：在行政管理上，當然我們會促請地方政府也要依照相關法令來做，我們也會做監督跟稽核。"],["張委員宏陸：好，你們會做稽核，我們等著看你們怎麼做。"],["陳司長永智：是。"],["張委員宏陸：副主委，現在國安法裡面確實是有一些漏洞，比如有很多民意代表之類的到中國去，其實他做什麼也都不用特別申報或做什麼動作，也都不用啊！是不是？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：報告委員，其實我們國安法不是有漏洞而已，它涵蓋的層面非常的窄，因為它只處罰兩種行為，就是幫中共或敵對勢力竊取機密或是發展組織，大概就這兩種行為。但其實違反國家安全的行為絕對不只這兩種，大家可以參考一下譬如韓國的國安法，它是包括幫北韓政權任何的宣傳行為都是禁止的。我們的國安法，我不太知道當初的立法原由，但是它其實涵蓋的範圍非常窄，處罰的行為也非常非常有限，所以我們的國安法，我個人是認為應該要補正很多東西啦！"],["張委員宏陸：好，所以這才是今天大家要修法、要來說的，好，謝謝副主委。我請次長跟司法院吳法官。"],["主席：我們請次長、司法院吳法官。"],["張委員宏陸：我想直接請教一個很實際的問題，未來如果軍事法庭恢復了以後，若是退伍軍人招募現役軍人進行組織犯罪，在同一案的現役軍人跟退役軍人是要分開審理還是合併審理？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，因為目前軍事審判相關法案的研議還是由國防部主責，我們是協助它共同討論未來要怎麼樣來切分。至於相關的範圍，還有審判權、職權之間如何劃分，還有共犯的問題，其實都還在研議當中。"],["張委員宏陸：好，那司法院呢？"],["吳法官元曜：報告委員，因為軍審法是國防部主管的法規，據了解他們規範的範圍應該是現役軍人，非現役軍人的部分應該還是由普通法院來審理，不過細節或規劃方向可能還是要問國防部比較準確。"],["張委員宏陸：不是啦，所以我剛剛點出來的問題，一個退役的、一個現役的，要分開審？是不是這樣的意思？是不是？"],["吳法官元曜：詳情可能要問國防部。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦……"],["吳法官元曜：大概目前了解是這樣。"],["張委員宏陸：沒關係。所以有很多的例子，剛剛我舉了幾個例子了，你說國安法有沒有修正的必要？我的結論是這樣，我剛剛講有那麼多的案例，所以國安法真的是有修正的必要啊！有的人說不需要修國安法，但我認為有這麼多……我就舉一個很明顯的例子給大家看了，這沒有必要修法嗎？次長，你要回答嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：其實我們在剛剛報告裡面，還有回答委員時也都有說明，至少就退撫的機制還有剝奪的部分已經在進行了，還有在關於參與組織的部分，我們也在進行了。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["主席：感謝張宏陸召委質詢。","我們請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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雖然您剛剛的說法是縮小範圍 但是我認為是擴大了為什麼擴大了 因為呢 把原來的範圍明確講公務然後變成了什麼 涉及國家安全或者是公共利益 這麼樣模糊的用語那麼這麼一修改 不就是把一般人民也牽扯進來了嗎"},{"start":125.67,"end":145.336,"text":"國家安全或者是公共利益要怎麼定義你們司法院的書面報告也有提出質疑壓請問一下國家安全或公共利益是哪一個政府部門主管機關請問我想這個在不同的法律裡面都會有用到類似的用語"},{"start":146.428,"end":171.71,"text":"那但是因為我們的書面議件已經提出來說認為這一個修正條文的修法的方向可能會有一些明確性或者是說範圍上跟其他法令搭配的疑慮所以我們是渐行再行斟酌好所以呢我們再來看完定於的版本他修訂了第二條第一款的內容恐怕連一般關心社會熱心參加活動的人民也會入罪喔對吧"},{"start":173.791,"end":176.712,"text":"黃婕委員版的第二條第二款他剛剛也做出提案的說明甚至對於用聲明會議連署或者其他形式表達不同於政府意見的人都有入罪的可能這不是思想檢查嗎"},{"start":198.377,"end":219.997,"text":"這也不是更進一步的限制集會自由和言論自由嗎然後再來看一下陳冠廷委員版本的第四條說要透過所謂的知通安全產品定期評估機制提出限制建議清單不准商店提供下載和更新否則將受罰"},{"start":222.182,"end":247.323,"text":"如果一般民眾不透過網路商店仍然下載到被限制的知通產品這麼樣也違反國安法違反國家安全嗎我們看一下現在一般的知通產品他都會在使用者的同意之下收集用戶的資訊作為他們大數據算法的依據例如 Google"},{"start":248.064,"end":273.625,"text":"脸书LINE抖音Trade难道这些知通产品也要通通被限制吗委员请问现在是要我回答吗因为刚刚你说我不用回答因为你刚刚一直看我所以你认为第四条呢这不是你管的吧这个部分应该是刚刚那个书发部有说明对这不是你管的吗所以你不用书发部有在吗"},{"start":274.923,"end":297.472,"text":"好 麻煩請您上台一下 謝謝您可以休息一下陳冠廷委員的版本第四條說資通安全請問一下Google臉書LINE、抖音、Trade難道這些資通產品要通的限制嗎"},{"start":300.318,"end":326.999,"text":"跟委員報告 其實陳冠廷委員提了這個資生安全產品的部分的話那目前我們資安署這邊有在修正資生安全管理法那有把危害國家資生安全產品放到我們的母法裡面去那這個危害國家資生安全產品我們會建立一個審查跟查詢的機制那提供給各公務機關跟特定非公務機關來說哪一些產品是不得下載使用那你們目前你們目前所收集到的資料是哪一些產品不可以"},{"start":328.066,"end":334.436,"text":"因為目前這個法還在修那以現階段來講我們是先禁止使用大陸廠牌的自動訊產品例如"},{"start":335.605,"end":360.876,"text":"例如在公務機關的話我們不得使用像是大陸上班像小米華為所謂是公務機關嘛對吧對它沒有限制一般的民眾嘛目前沒有好 未來這個法修的時候好像是只要是公共利益的都有喔好 再來陳冠廷委員版本第十九條還提到了要設立國家安全專業法庭這個次長就可以來了這樣的法庭現在不是已經有了嗎這個司法院的業務好 司法院今天有來嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":365.492,"end":393.112,"text":"第19條要設立國家安全專業法庭這樣法庭現在不是已經有了嗎請問是的現在全國各法院還有各等法院按照陳委員他的修法的說明他說這幾年來因為違反國家安全法的相關案件的判刑都是輕判和一顆罰金這好像是跟法官的國安專業知識不足有關所以必須要重新訓練一批可以達到績效能判重刑的法官才可以"},{"start":394.261,"end":396.763,"text":"這樣的見解 這樣的修法不就和當年擺設恐怖戒嚴時期的心態一樣嗎要用軍法官來判案然後守謀判刑至少要15年以上這不是戒嚴 什麼才是戒嚴呢你同意這樣的修法嗎"},{"start":410.514,"end":424.267,"text":"加強教育訓練其實我們目前都有在做那也尊重個案法官關於量刑的判斷好 所以謝謝你我在這裡最後用一點點的時間我要舉一個血淋淋的例子請大家聽好"},{"start":425.969,"end":450.565,"text":"1949年國民政府在反共的國策之下他宣布了戒嚴不久之後呢就用一紙行政命令發布了山地管制然後這樣的管制呢管制了30個山地鄉幾乎台灣一半的土地都被劃進了山地管制區當年為什麼要管制山地呢就是為了我們的平地的人民跑到山區裡面然後撿到中共的空飄氣球灑下來的宣傳單就會造反"},{"start":455.428,"end":472.546,"text":"就會為匪宣傳然後為了搜查警察可以用所謂的山地清查的名義任意的衝到我們族人的家中翻箱倒櫃查不到傳單查到山豬肉也是犯法愛玉子也是違禁品而這樣的管制維持了40年"},{"start":474.608,"end":486.113,"text":"這40年裡面我們的族人付出了什麼樣的代價它造成了原鄉發展的嚴重落後而我們兩三代的原住民的族人必須要離開家鄉然後到城市裡面顛沛流離的在社會邊緣裡面掙扎的討生活還要被嚴重的歧視"},{"start":494.376,"end":510.346,"text":"難道就因為執政者所謂的國家安全的反共需要我們人民就必須要背負這麼樣沉重的歷史代價嗎而這些白色恐怖的歷史教訓都還沒有反省清理乾淨而新的反共"},{"start":511.526,"end":524.891,"text":"綠色恐怖又要假借所謂的國家安全的名目借屍還魂回來了嗎而現在的法令難道還不夠國安調查人員去逮捕搜索我們的人民嗎所以我堅決反對更何況"},{"start":528.852,"end":543.664,"text":"上次的修法行政院他有提出院版喔這次卻沒有而法務部你們的書面意見報告也提出不同的建議所以呢我要建議我們今天的抓委"},{"start":544.813,"end":563.465,"text":"不需要這麼快的來逐條的審查我們等行政院的版本進入來了以後大家還好好的討論最後我要講的是我堅決反對倉促的修法也堅決的反對國安法修成戒嚴法看一下"},{"start":564.446,"end":589.975,"text":"以前是小心匪諜就在你身邊現在我們所有的一般的民眾你們要注意啦小心啊國安就在你身邊啊以前我們的國安法是對於公務體系軍公教人員現在這個法一修一般的民眾都有可能會涉及國安法所以我的最後的結論是小心國安就在你旁邊謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":425,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（9時46分）謝謝主席，我們請黃次長。"],["主席：好，請黃次長。"],["高金委員素梅：次長，你好。這次國安法修法，請問一下，行政院為什麼沒有提出版本？"],["黃次長世杰：我們目前正在盤點跟研議、研擬條文中。"],["高金委員素梅：所以行政院未來會提出版本是嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好，請問一下哪個部會是主管機關？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，國安法裡面，因為事涉跨部會，目前它是掛在行政院直接主管，所以在大院是內政委員會來審議。"],["高金委員素梅：所以未來主管機關是行政院？"],["黃次長世杰：還是行政院。"],["高金委員素梅：所以行政院會跨部會協調大家，但是今天我們看到立法院有9個修法版本，在我看來，我真的覺得不可思議。我要講一下，過去這幾年在民進黨的主導之下，我們在2019年修了國安五法，也立了反滲透法，2022年又修了國家安全法。我們現在打開全國法規資料庫，只要跟國家安全有關的法條就有397條之多，而事隔3年，我們又要再一次來修國安法，我們看一下眼前這些版本把法修得越來越嚴，管制的範圍也越來越寬。","我們看一下陳冠廷委員的版本，陳委員把原來的國安法第二條第二款條文當中「公務上應秘密之」改成了「涉及國家安全或公共利益上應秘密之」，我認為雖然您剛剛的說法是縮小範圍，但是我認為是擴大了，為什麼擴大了？因為原來的範圍明確講的是「公務」卻變成了什麼？「涉及國家安全或公共利益」這麼模糊的用語，這麼一修改，不就是把一般人民也牽扯進來了嗎？國家安全或者是公共利益要怎麼定義？司法院的書面報告也有提出質疑，請問國家安全或公共利益是哪一個政府部門為主管機關？"],["黃次長世杰：我想這在不同的法令裡面都會有用到類似的用法，但是因為我們的書面意見已經提出來，認為這個修正條文的修法方向可能會有一些明確性或者是範圍上跟其他法令搭配的疑慮，所以我們是建請再行斟酌。"],["高金委員素梅：好，所以我們再來看王定宇的版本，他修訂第二條第一款的內容，恐怕連一般關心社會、熱心參加活動的人民也會入罪，對吧？然後黃捷委員版……"],["黃次長世杰：我想……"],["高金委員素梅：你可以不用回答，謝謝，因為我們兩個的見解可能有所不同，而且今天時間也有限。","而黃捷委員版本的第二條第二款，她剛剛也做出提案說明，甚至對於「以聲明、會議、連署或其他形式」表達不同於政府意見的人都有入罪的可能，這不就是思想審查嗎？這也不就是更進一步的限制集會自由和言論自由嗎？然後，我們再來看一下陳冠廷委員版本的第四條說，要透過所謂的「資通安全產品定期評估機制並提出限制建議清單」，不准應用程式商店提供下載和更新，否則將受罰。如果一般民眾不透過網路商店仍然下載到被限制的資通產品，這樣也違反國安法，危害國家安全嗎？我們看一下，現在一般的資通產品都會在使用者同意之下蒐集用戶資訊，作為他們大數據算法的依據，例如Google、臉書、LINE、抖音、Threads，難道這些資通產品也要通通被限制嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：委員，請問現在是要我回答嗎？因為剛剛你說我不用回答……"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，我在看您啊，因為你剛剛一直看我，所以你認為呢？"],["黃次長世杰：你剛剛說我不用回答……"],["高金委員素梅：所以你認為第四條呢？這不是你管的吧？"],["黃次長世杰：這個部分應該是剛剛數發部有說明。"],["高金委員素梅：對，這不是你管的，數發部有在嗎？好，麻煩請您上臺一下，謝謝。次長可以休息一下。"],["主席（王委員美惠代）：我們請數發部司長。"],["高金委員素梅：陳冠廷委員的版本第十條說到資通安全，請問一下Google、臉書、LINE、抖音、Threads，難道這些資通產品要通通限制嗎？"],["牛司長信仁：跟委員報告，其實陳冠廷委員提的有關資通安全產品的部分，目前我們資安署有在修正資通安全管理法，有把危害國家資通安全產品放到我們的母法裡面，對於危害國家資通安全產品，我們會建立一個審查跟查詢的機制，提供給各公務機關跟特定非公務機關哪一些產品是不得下載使用。"],["高金委員素梅：你們目前所蒐集到的資料是哪一些產品不可以？"],["牛司長信仁：因為目前這個法還在修，以現階段來講，我們是先禁止使用大陸廠牌的資通訊產品。"],["高金委員素梅：例如？"],["牛司長信仁：例如在公務機關的話，我們規定不得使用大陸廠牌像小米、華為這類的。"],["高金委員素梅：所以是公務機關對吧？"],["牛司長信仁：對。"],["高金委員素梅：它沒有限制一般的民眾嘛？"],["牛司長信仁：目前沒有。"],["高金委員素梅：好，未來這個法修了之後，好像只要是公共利益的都有。再來。陳冠廷委員版本第十九條還提到要設立國家安全專業法庭，這部分次長就可以來了，這樣的法庭現在不是已經有了嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，這個是司法院的業務。"],["高金委員素梅：好，司法院今天有來嗎？好，謝謝。"],["主席：我們請吳法官。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝。第十九條要設立國家安全專業法庭，這樣的法庭現在不是已經有了嗎？請問。"],["吳法官元曜：是的，現在全國各法院還有高等法院分院都有。"],["高金委員素梅：好，按照陳委員的修法說明所說，這幾年來因為違反國家安全法相關案件的判刑都是輕判和易科罰金，這好像跟法官的國安專業知識不足有關，所以必須要重新訓練一批可以達到績效能判重刑的法官才可以，這樣的見解、這樣的修法，不就和當年白色恐怖戒嚴時期的心態一樣嗎？要用軍法官來判案，然後首謀判刑至少要十五年以上，這不是戒嚴，什麼才是戒嚴啊？你同意這樣的修法嗎？"],["吳法官元曜：加強教育訓練其實我們目前都有在做。"],["高金委員素梅：對。"],["吳法官元曜：也尊重個案法官關於量刑的判斷，謝謝委員。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝你，最後我在這裡用一點點時間，我要舉一個血淋淋的例子，請大家聽好。1949年國民政府在反共國策之下宣布了戒嚴，不久之後就用一紙行政命令發布山地管制，這樣的管制管制了30個山地鄉，幾乎臺灣一半的土地都被劃進了山地管制區，當年為什麼要管制山地呢？就是為了平地人民跑到山區裡面，撿到中共的空飄氣球灑下來的宣傳單就會造反、為匪宣傳，為了搜查，警察可以用所謂山地清查的名義，任意衝到我們族人的家中翻箱倒櫃，查不到傳單，查到山豬肉也是犯法，愛玉子也是違禁品，而這樣的管制維持了40年。這40年裡面，我們的族人付出了什麼樣的代價？它造成了原鄉發展的嚴重落後，而我們兩、三代的原住民族人必須要離開家鄉，到城市裡面顛沛流離的在社會邊緣掙扎討生活，還要被嚴重歧視，難道就因為執政者所謂國家安全的反共需要，我們人民就必須要背負這樣沉重的歷史代價嗎？這些白色恐怖的歷史教訓都還沒有反省、清理乾淨，而新的反共、綠色恐怖又要假借所謂國家安全的名目借屍還魂回來了嗎？而現在的法令難道還不夠國安調查人員去逮捕、搜索我們的人民嗎？所以我堅決反對，更何況上次的修法，行政院有提出院版喔！這次卻沒有，而法務部你們的書面意見報告也提出不同的建議，所以我要建議我們今天的召委，不需要這麼快的來逐條審查，等行政院的版本進來了以後，大家好好的討論。","最後我要講的是，我堅決反對倉促的修法，也堅決反對國安法修成戒嚴法。看一下，以前是小心匪諜就在你身邊，現在我們所有一般的民眾，你們要注意啦！小心國安就在你身邊啊！以前我們的國安法是對於公務體系、軍公教人員，現在這個法一修，一般的民眾都有可能會涉及國安法，所以我最後的結論是：小心，國安就在你旁邊！謝謝。"],["主席：感謝高金素梅委員質詢。","我們請張宏陸召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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有請陸委會副主委好 請陸委會"},{"start":8.638,"end":34.55,"text":"所以委員好副主席你剛剛講的這個案件其實每天都在台灣發生沒有錯發生的形態有太多種那我們今天有立法院我們內政委員會提出來的這些國安法的討論裡面包含很多法條其實很多委員的版本其實我們沒有辦法掌握到"},{"start":35.55,"end":64.56,"text":"像陸委會可以掌握到這麼多的這些形態跟樣態是跟你聊一下跟你討論一下中共有多少人在做統戰那他統戰的形態有多少誰是會被他想要統戰的有哪些形態的人我稍微講一下你看我有沒有漏掉是退役軍人退役調查局退役公務員這是他們最有興趣的對不對接下來"},{"start":66.817,"end":78.545,"text":"現任可能是不管是助理也好或者是可能從事政治相關活動的也好這個也是他們想要滲透的對不對"},{"start":79.742,"end":103.601,"text":"還有之前更嚴重的是直接買一個政黨叫做統一促進黨都直接拿中國的資金介入台灣選舉違反可能是選罷法那違反可能是政黨法當然他已經第一個被成功送政黨解散的一個政黨"},{"start":104.718,"end":120.105,"text":"他不是政黨,他也是中共想要滲透的一個黨一個單位這麼多這麼多的這種形態那我想我們今天提出來的包含委員提出來的我有連署的第二條"},{"start":122.448,"end":150.055,"text":"如果有去簽署加入他們的組織的這個我們希望也可以把它規範下來第七條針對現任軍人跟公務員我們有用加重刑責的方式還有第十四條我覺得也非常值得討論雖然在現在退服法裡面針對他們這些退休的這些待遇可能我們就是如果有犯相關的這些國安的事情我們給他停止之外呢那"},{"start":150.717,"end":171.229,"text":"我覺得修法還是遠遠不夠,因為裡面還是我們每天遭遇的,剛剛我講的這個,每天在推廣中共統戰訊息的這些,而且這些訊息可能是假的訊息,可能都是認知作戰的內容,這些我們確實無法規範。你知道我講的就是抖音、TikTok。"},{"start":174.037,"end":200.432,"text":"對於抖音TikTok它其實每天每天都在發生雖然我們都會去教不管是長輩或者是年輕人看抖音的時候要有一個判斷的想法但是我們確實無法規範抖音它同時也是造成美國國安問題很重要的一個原因我想要針對抖音的問題來請教副主委"},{"start":202.284,"end":221.996,"text":"抖音我們在上一次遇到的這一些包含陸配陸配去陸配大部分的陸配都是很好的在台灣生活過的不可能想要再回中國去過中國的那種生活但是他透過抖音衝他在中國的流量"},{"start":223.208,"end":248.864,"text":"去賺他的錢但是講的內容卻嚴重傷害台灣我們卻只能用台灣地區大陸人民關係條例來做這一些管理管制但是還是有大量的到中國發展的網紅有這一些行為那我們要怎麼樣可以來規範當然也不是審查我們都知道他是帶流量嘛"},{"start":249.991,"end":255.784,"text":"他藉由統戰 藉由講台灣不好藉由甚至講武統台灣這些內容"},{"start":257.386,"end":284.679,"text":"然後來衝他的流量我們卻沒有任何武器可以來對付這個我覺得這是不是應該要做一些約束關於抖音以及不只是抖音還有很多其他的各類的網路世界的一些網站或者是等等這些部分其實在非常非常遺憾的就是說我們台灣其實沒有什麼法律可以管"},{"start":286.26,"end":303.132,"text":"非常自由啊除了根據兒少法如果他有這個兒少相關就是保護兒童出於保護兒童的目的那我們的政府機關才可以針對該網站做出處罰或是所謂的"},{"start":305.186,"end":330.434,"text":"降解析意思就是block起來所以這個我們要跟疏發部要好好的來做一些探討但是這個不只是疏發部的問題意思就是說這個權力到底要放在哪一個單位手上疏發部它可能譬如說即使在兒照法的時候疏發部也只是一個執行的單位它並不是一個決定做決策的單位"},{"start":331.654,"end":351.994,"text":"所以我們對於網路世界的管理確實在台灣目前為止沒有法律的授權那各個機關碰到類似這樣的問題的時候那往往就是有點應該是說沒有法律授權所以沒有辦法處理接下來我們就是要應應的問題最後"},{"start":354.236,"end":378.238,"text":"民進黨在這一屆的立法院已經提出包括兩岸人民關係條例反滲透法還有資訊安全管理法在藍白的程序委員會一共被擋了363次包含中國國民黨跟台灣民眾黨很遺憾的在第九屆的時代力量"},{"start":379.36,"end":391.073,"text":"黃國昌委員也都提出國安跟加重的共諜的這些刑責我很想看看今天的台灣民眾黨的黃國昌委員對於國安法的態度到底是怎樣副主委這個你不用回答謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":407,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（9時39分）謝謝，有請陸委會副主委。"],["主席：請陸委會。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：副主委，你剛剛講的這個案件，其實每天都在臺灣發生。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：沒有錯。"],["李委員柏毅：發生的型態有太多種，今天由立法院內政委員會提出國安法的討論包含很多法條，其實很多委員的版本沒有辦法像陸委會可以掌握到這麼多的型態跟樣態。跟你聊一下、跟你討論一下，中共有多少人在做統戰？統戰的型態有多少？誰會是他想要統戰的？有哪些型態的人？我稍微講一下，你看我有沒有漏掉？退役軍人、退役調查局人員、退役公務員，這些是他們最有興趣的，對不對？接下來，現任不管助理也好，或者可能從事政治相關活動的也好，也都是他們想要滲透的，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：當然。"],["李委員柏毅：之前更嚴重的是直接買一個政黨，叫做統一促進黨，都直接拿中國的資金介入臺灣選舉，違反的可能是選罷法、政黨法。當然它已經是第一個被成功解散的政黨，但它不是政黨，而是中共想要滲透的一個單位，有這麼多的型態。而今天委員提出來的，包含我有連署的第二條，如果有簽署加入他們的組織的，我們希望也可以把它規範下來；第七條是針對現任軍人跟公務員，我們也用加重刑責的方式；還有第十四條，我覺得也非常值得討論。雖然現行退撫法針對這些退休者的待遇，如果有犯相關國安情事，予以停止之外，我覺得修法還是遠遠不夠。因為我們每天還是遭遇我剛剛講推廣中共統戰的這一些訊息，而且這些訊息可能是假的訊息、可能都是認知作戰的內容，我們確實無法規範。你知道我講的就是抖音、TikTok？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["李委員柏毅：其實抖音、TikTok每天都在發生，雖然我們都會去教不管長輩或者年輕人看抖音的時候要有判斷的想法，但是我們確實無法規範抖音，它同時也是造成美國國安問題很重要的一個原因。我想要針對抖音的問題來請教副主委，我們上一次在抖音遇到的這一些陸配……大部分的陸配都是很好的，在臺灣生活過得……不可能想要再回中國去過中國的那種生活，但是他透過抖音衝他在中國的流量賺錢，講的內容嚴重傷害臺灣，我們只能用臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例來管理、管制，所以還是有大量到中國發展的網紅有這一些行為，我們要怎麼樣來規範？當然也不是審查，我們都知道他是帶流量，藉由統戰、講臺灣不好、甚至講武統臺灣這些內容來衝流量，我們卻沒有任何武器可以來對付，是不是應該要有一些約束？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：關於抖音以及不只是抖音，還有很多其他各類網路世界的一些網站等等，這些部分非常遺憾的就是臺灣其實沒有什麼法律可以管……"],["李委員柏毅：非常自由！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：除了根據兒少法，如果有兒少相關、出於保護兒童的目的，政府機關才可以針對該網站做出處罰，或是所謂的降解析，意思就是block起來。"],["李委員柏毅：所以這個我們要跟數發部好好來做一些探討？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，但這不只是數發部的問題，意思就是這個權力到底要放在哪一個單位手上？即使在兒少法，數發部也只是一個執行的單位，並不是決定、做決策的單位，所以對於網路世界的管理，確實在臺灣目前為止沒有法律的授權，各個機關碰到類似的問題時，往往就是有點……應該是說沒有法律授權，所以沒有辦法處理。"],["李委員柏毅：這就是接下來我們要因應的問題。最後，民進黨在這一屆立法院已經提出包括兩岸人民關係條例、反滲透法，還有資訊安全管理法，在程序委員會一共被藍白擋了363次，包含中國國民黨跟台灣民眾黨，很遺憾在第9屆時代力量黃國昌委員也都提出國安跟加重共諜這些刑責，我很想看看今天台灣民眾黨的黃國昌委員，對於國安法的態度到底是怎樣？副主委，這個你不用回答，謝謝。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：謝謝。"],["主席：我們請高金素梅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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我們先請法務部黃次長好 請黃次長"},{"start":10.213,"end":30.604,"text":"市長剛剛聽您報告這麼完整那也對今天所有大家這個國安法各位委員的版本有做出了法務部的意見那我想大家都可以同意國安危機是應該要被重視的那所以我想第一個請教你一個整體的概念那我們今天來修正國安法即便今天所有委員的版本都通過了就能夠解決國安問題嗎"},{"start":33.96,"end":53.727,"text":"我想國安問題不是只有一部國安法在處理剛才這個不管是本部的報告或陸委會的報告都有提到很多相關的法令其實都要配套來搭配來修正還有相關的行政管制措施還有一些配套其實都要甚至包含司法院都要共同來努力"},{"start":54.207,"end":58.669,"text":"我想我確實如同次長說的啦就國安的樣態國安危機的樣態犯罪樣態真的很多我們這樣子可以看得出來你剛說法規你看羅列下來就這麼多的法規都其實是涉及相關的國安危機都可能產生國安危機的狀況所以如果我們今天只就國安法來修正不管是名詞定義或者是這個管轄的範圍等等我覺得可能都還不夠比如說呢"},{"start":82.419,"end":110.116,"text":"如果我们来看这三年统计的状态我们这三年在刚刚那么多的法条规定里面如果我们用到国安法从涉案来讲其实也就是这么几件那甚至到判刑来讲坦白讲这三年里面一共只有合计就这么个位数的件数有到判刑的状态而且呢六个月以上刑度的其实也只有一件"},{"start":110.956,"end":127.917,"text":"所以如果國人都同意國安的危機是現在整個台灣應該要面對的狀況那我們就必須慎重的來思考我們的國安危機國安犯罪的樣態到底有多少我同意國安法應該要修正但"},{"start":128.377,"end":132.419,"text":"其實應該不只是國安法這個應該是完全同意的狀態吧所以我反而會認為說如果今天這樣來講的話其實法務部做雖然這個國安法的這個主管機關這個其實應該算行政院吧應該算行政院可是至少法務部應該是可以提出跟陸委會共同提出一個大的意見我覺得這國安的狀態應該是整包來修正啊對這你們有沒有什麼樣的想法或計畫院的態度到底是什麼"},{"start":156.289,"end":179.575,"text":"是 在賴總統做出指示之後 誠如剛才陸委會兩副主委所說行政院已經啟動各機關來檢視各該所管的法令所以剛剛我也提到說有關於像退府給予的剝奪或是減少這個部分事實上因為42多機關我們已經啟動檢視的機制也跟各機關會同會配合來修訂"},{"start":183.556,"end":191.9,"text":"所以真的是非常多啦有不只是一部啦所以我是希望說今天我們雖然已經是要來這個審查這個國安法的修正可是我覺得今天這是一個啟動我認為它是一個啟動我認為第一還是應該要有院版啦而且這個院版其實甚至不是只有國安法一個法律我認為其實就是要有非常多相關的法律同時提出它是一整套台灣面對國安危機的狀態我覺得這樣會比較完善以上是我的意見次長同意嗎是同意謝謝好那我認為要加速啦那"},{"start":212.831,"end":223.337,"text":"我不知道你騎乘是什麼時候不過沒關係我就希望加速我們盡快來辦好這是先次長的部分那我接下來次長請回座我想要請這個陸委會梁副主委好 請陸委會"},{"start":228.246,"end":234.431,"text":"是委員好副主委你應該也同意剛剛我跟這個法務部黃次長的對話啦就說國安危機樣態這麼多其實不是只有修國安法就可以解決這個沒有問題吧是沒有問題好那副主委其實我想跟你討論的反而是"},{"start":243.439,"end":253.566,"text":"一般人現在我們每天會遇到的狀況其實它可能不見得是國安法處理的它可能我認為以新聞事件來講最常發生的可能是兩岸人民社兩岸人民關係條例因為以今天這個大家都在談這個禮拜大家在談的這個案例陸委會也表達過態度兩岸共讀一本好書爭文大賽陸委會你就這個案件來你說它可能有涉犯兩岸人民關係條例"},{"start":271.559,"end":274.68,"text":"然後就有相關當事人出來說哇你這個是文字獄啊等等我現在給副主委你的時間來解釋一下請問你所說的涉犯到底是指誰涉犯什麼樣的樣態涉犯我認為這其實應該反而講得更清楚大家才知道到底我在什麼位置你在講我嗎我是哪一個行為副主委你可以說明清楚一點嗎"},{"start":296.604,"end":322.035,"text":"好這個活動其實它是去年就辦了第一屆今年是第二屆那它的行為樣態是我們是把它界定為違反兩岸人民條例33-1也就是與中共黨政軍機關合作行為為什麼合作行為一般來講的話我們會先去界定說對方"},{"start":323.856,"end":343.517,"text":"和對方的合作對象他到底是不是黨政軍機構然後再看說這樣的合作舉辦的活動的目的和他的實際上想要達成的意圖到底是什麼我們並不會說所有的合作行為我們都反對 並不是這樣"},{"start":344.858,"end":372.416,"text":"但是在這個活動裡面就很清楚是對方的這個黨政軍機構雖然中共的黨政機構非常多啦它會隱藏成各種 譬如說用公司的名義用出版社的名義 用什麼團體的名義但是我們會查到說它確實就是中共的黨政軍機構然後它發起了這樣的一個活動然後台灣的某一個出版社或是公司跟它合作辦理"},{"start":372.856,"end":389.1,"text":"那他這樣他以這個活動來講的話就是說他以舉辦這個讀書讀書為名然後讓所有報名者報名者你只要有報名他就可以把你列入說我"},{"start":390.26,"end":408.385,"text":"帶到大陸去做所謂的研習營以去年來說的話他到了大陸去之後然後就是開始做一些參訪過程然後中共的統戰官員就出席然後就告訴大家說今天這個活動就是為了這個祖國共同推動祖國和平統一等等這樣子"},{"start":409.545,"end":426.305,"text":"那所以去年這樣的活動呢他就已經辦過一次那今年又再舉辦那最近大家比較誤會的就是所謂的什麼歐貴之老師我們並不是針對歐貴之老師不是嘛 不是針對這個歐老師嘛因為他的最近的爭議比較大"},{"start":427.947,"end":457.057,"text":"所以也算是眾所矚目的公眾人物是所以他在他在自己的群組或是什麼地方轉發了這個活動的訊息以後那就會有人跟我們政府機關來檢舉檢舉的是這個活動檢舉的是這個活動所以我們所查的是這個活動是這個事情呢對我們來說這種檢舉是一個消息來源是一個線索但是我們並不是去查歐貴之老師本人"},{"start":457.537,"end":464.862,"text":"好 很好副主委那我其實因為時間的關係我再做個簡單的整理其實我們在認定這些活動的時候其實以這個案例來講就等於有三個層次第一個是這個活動的主辦單位第二個是消息的轉傳人第三個是參與者而陸委會在新聞發布的上面寫到說本案件恐赦兩岸人民關係條例的33條之一指的是這個主辦單位而不是轉傳訊息的人更不是參與者"},{"start":486.317,"end":490.119,"text":"至少在本件是如此嘛對不對那這個活動為什麼會被認定為是有違反有涉33條之一的原因因為它的主辦單位除了台灣的這個民間單位之外其實最重要的第一個海峽出版發行集團它就是屬於福建省"},{"start":505.048,"end":512.091,"text":"國有獨資企業由福建省委宣傳部來領導就是這麼簡單嘛這就是中共的黨政軍機構之一所以當然很明確的是涉犯這兩岸人民關係條例的33條之一嘛所以我覺得坊間其實不應該誤解說好像現在所有的人只要跟大陸扯上關係跟中國扯上關係我們就會政府就會怎麼樣怎麼樣其實完全不是這樣的狀況"},{"start":532.921,"end":547.996,"text":"所以用這個例子我也是想請陸委會未來在這一些案例出來的時候其實可以更明確的區分清楚讓人民知道說我是在什麼位置所以什麼樣的行為會有涉及"},{"start":548.356,"end":564.353,"text":"台灣危害了我自己國家的國家安全那這樣子我不會有觸法的行為未來我們也比較容易讓大家更能夠建立這個遵循的架構就是我希望陸委會未來在發布新聞的時候可以更明確一點啦免得反而變成消息誤傳啊變成什麼文字獄我覺得這樣不太好啦"},{"start":568.057,"end":576.905,"text":"謝謝委員 這個部分我們會注意 因為最近針對這個案子有很多錯誤的指控我們陸委會所針對的對象絕對不是什麼個人 而是針對舉辦這種活動和大陸和中共黨軍機構合作的團體或是組織好 謝謝蘇主委 未來請加油 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":364,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時29分）謝謝主席，先請法務部黃次長。"],["主席：請黃次長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：次長好。次長，剛剛聽您報告得這麼完整，也對今天所有委員的國安法版本提出了法務部的意見，我想大家都可以同意國安危機是應該要被重視的，所以第一個想請教你一個整體的概念，我們今天來修正國安法，即便所有委員的版本都通過了，就能夠解決國安問題嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：我想國安問題不是只有一部國安法在處理。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是。"],["黃次長世杰：剛才不管是本部的報告或陸委會的報告，都有提到很多相關的法令，其實都要搭配來修正，還有相關的行政管制措施、一些配套，甚至包含司法院都要共同來努力。"],["蘇委員巧慧：確實如同次長說的，國安危機的犯罪樣態真的很多，您剛剛說到法規，你看羅列下來就這麼多的法規都涉及相關的國安問題，都可能產生國安危機的狀況，所以我們如果今天只就國安法來修正，不管是名詞定義或管轄範圍等等，我覺得可能都還不夠。如果我們來看這三年統計的狀態，這三年在剛剛那麼多的法條規定裡面，如果我們用到國安法，從涉案來講，其實也就是這麼幾件，從判刑來講，坦白講這三年裡面合計也就是個位數的件數有到判刑的狀態，而且六個月以上刑度的其實也只有一件，所以如果國人都同意國安危機是現在整個臺灣應該要面對的狀況，那我們就必須慎重的來思考國安危機、國安犯罪的樣態到底有多少。我同意國安法應該要修正，但其實應該不只是國安法，這應該完全同意吧？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我反而認為，如果今天這樣來講，國安法的主管機關應該算行政院，可是至少法務部應該可以跟陸委會共同提出一個大的意見，國安的狀態應該是整包來修正，對這一點你們有沒有什麼樣的想法或計畫？院的態度到底是什麼？"],["黃次長世杰：是，在賴總統做出指示之後，誠如剛才陸委會梁副主委所說，行政院已經啟動各機關來檢視各該所管的法令，所以剛剛我也提到，有關於退撫給與的剝奪或減少，事實上，因為事涉多機關，我們已經啟動檢視的機制，也會跟各機關配合來修訂。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以真的是非常多啦，不只是一部。今天我們雖然已經要來審查國安法的修正，可是我覺得今天是一個啟動，我認為第一還是應該要有院版，而且這個院版甚至不是只有國安法一個法律，我認為其實應該要有非常多的相關法律同時提出，它是一整套臺灣面對國安危機的狀態，我覺得這樣會比較完善，以上是我的意見，次長同意嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：是，同意。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我認為要加速，那我不知道期程是什麼，不過沒關係，我就希望加速。"],["黃次長世杰：好，我們儘快來辦理。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是次長的部分，次長請回座。接下來我想要請陸委會梁副主委。"],["主席：請陸委會。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：副主委，你應該也同意剛剛我跟法務部黃次長的對話，就是國安危機樣態這麼多，其實不是只有修國安法就可以解決，這個沒有問題吧？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是，沒有問題。"],["蘇委員巧慧：副主委，其實我想跟你討論的反而是現在一般人每天會遇到的狀況，其實它可能不見得是國安法處理的，我認為以新聞事件來講，最常發生的可能是兩岸人民關係條例，以這個禮拜大家都在談的案例來講，陸委會也表達過態度，兩岸共讀一本好書徵文大賽，陸委會就這個案件說它可能有涉犯兩岸人民關係條例，然後就有相關當事人出來說你這是文字獄等等。我現在給副主委時間來解釋一下，請問你所說的涉犯到底是指誰涉犯？什麼樣的樣態涉犯？我認為這應該講得更清楚，大家才知道到底我在什麼位置，你在講我嗎？我是哪一個行為？副主委，你可以說明清楚一點嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：好，這個活動其實去年就辦了第一屆，今年是第二屆，它的行為樣態是我們是把它界定為違反兩岸人民條例第三十三條之一，也就是與中共黨政軍機關合作行為。"],["蘇委員巧慧：為什麼？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：一般來講，我們會先去界定對方的合作對象到底是不是黨政軍機構。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：然後再看這樣的合作、舉辦活動的目的和它實際上想要達成的意圖到底是什麼，我們並不會對所有的合作行為都反對，並不是這樣！但在這個活動裡面很清楚，是對方的黨政軍機構，雖然中共的黨政軍機構非常多，會隱藏成各種名義，譬如公司、出版社、團體，不過我們會查到確實就是中共的黨政軍機構發起了這樣的活動，而臺灣的某一個出版社或是公司跟它合作辦理。以這個活動來講，以舉辦讀書為名，讓所有人只要有報名就可以列入、帶到大陸去做所謂的研習營。以去年來說，到了大陸之後就開始做一些參訪過程，然後中共的統戰官員就出席，告訴大家今天這個活動就是為了共同推動祖國和平統一等等。去年它就已經辦過一次這樣的活動，今年又再舉辦。","最近大家比較誤會的就是區桂芝老師，我們並不是針對區桂芝老師，而是因為他……"],["蘇委員巧慧：不是針對這個區老師嘛？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不是。因為他最近的爭議比較大，也算是眾所矚目的公眾人物，所以他在自己的群組或是什麼地方轉發了活動的訊息以後，就會有人跟政府機關檢舉。"],["蘇委員巧慧：檢舉的是這個活動本身？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：檢舉的是這個活動，所以我們所查的是這個活動。對我們來說，這種檢舉是一個消息來源、線索，但我們並不是去查區桂芝老師本人。"],["蘇委員巧慧：很好。因為時間的關係，我再做個簡單的整理。其實我們在認定這些活動的時候，以這個案例來講，就等於有三個層次，第一個是這個活動的主辦單位，第二個是消息的轉傳人，第三個是參與者。而陸委會在發布的新聞稿上面寫到，本案件恐涉兩岸人民關係條例第三十三條之一，指的是這個主辦單位，而不是轉傳訊息的人，更不是參與者，至少在本件是如此，對不對？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這個活動為什麼會被認定為有違反、涉第三十三條之一的原因？因為主辦單位除了臺灣的民間單位之外，其實最重要的第一個是海峽出版發行集團，它就是屬於福建省國有獨資企業，由福建省委宣傳部來領導，就是這麼簡單嘛！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：沒錯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這就是中共的黨政軍機構之一，很明確的是涉犯兩岸人民關係條例第三十三條之一，所以我覺得坊間不應該誤解好像現在所有的人只要跟大陸扯上關係、跟中國扯上關係，政府就會怎麼樣，其實完全不是這樣的狀況！用這個例子，我也是想請陸委會未來在這一些案例出來的時候，可以更明確區分清楚，讓人民知道我是在什麼位置，有什麼樣的行為會涉及臺灣，危害了自己國家的國家安全，這樣才不會有觸法的行為，未來也比較容易建立讓大家更能夠遵循的架構。我希望陸委會未來在發布新聞的時候可以更明確一點，免得反而變成消息誤傳、文字獄，我覺得這樣不太好。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：謝謝委員，這個部分我們會注意。因為最近針對這個案子有很多錯誤的指控，陸委會所針對的對象絕對不是個人，而是針對舉辦這種活動和中共黨政軍機構合作的團體或是組織。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝副主委。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：謝謝。"],["蘇委員巧慧：未來請加油！"],["梁副主任委員文傑：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-15","speakers":["張宏陸","黃捷","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","高金素梅","王美惠","黃國昌","吳琪銘","許宇甄","鄭天財Sra 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我不知道他在訴求什麼對不起 我剛剛跟你講的時候 你在旁邊跟人家聊天啊我沒有在聊天 我沒有聊天喔 第一 你們說整潔開銷將人事資料他們所謂的人事開銷一年省了4億但是錯誤的能源政策四天燒掉9億他是台電人 他看不下去整個錯誤的能源政策讓台電面臨巨大的虧損您怎麼回應 是嗎"},{"start":193.516,"end":217.943,"text":"那你覺得台電是賺錢喔?台電賺大錢喔?那如果台電是賺大錢,現在還需要虧損嗎?你認為是他講的,這是大陣火虧損嗎?所以你認為是賺錢?沒有賠損沒有說他是賺錢,但是你認為他是虧損喔?這是他們目前講出來的數據您到現在只是要跟我在那邊鬥嘴,沒有意義啊我沒有跟你鬥嘴啊我說他現在提出的數據,您可不可以回應?"},{"start":219.52,"end":229.372,"text":"您認為呢我不知道要回應什麼他說虧錢錯誤的能源政策虧錢有很多種原因不能講這個事情是什麼能源政策他是專家嗎"},{"start":231.052,"end":244.244,"text":"他是第一線實際在台電上班的員工看不下去啊那請問一下您這樣講那您是專家嗎他看不下去那您是專家嗎不好意思他看不下去您是專家嗎對不對看不下去你講這句話我就要問你現階段你說請他離開你會不會秋後算帳"},{"start":252.191,"end":260.693,"text":"這些人為了自己的心聲為了全國百姓的聲音出來你請他離開你是不是要秋後算帳這是你講的那你為什麼要請他離開這是你講的喔你為什麼要在這個國會電台裡面講說請他離開國會電台不在講你要就事實來論述你不能夠隨便亂講啊"},{"start":273.337,"end":283.629,"text":"今天我是轉說這些團體他們的聲音你要怎麼用3.3%的人來講這件事情第二個你又在著重在1.3%你現在就是覺得他們人數少看不起他們嗎"},{"start":288.234,"end":309.679,"text":"你知道我們一年有多少營業額嗎你都不就我剛剛問的問題來回答第一我說他們的心聲是這樣你願不願意回答你一下說他是專家嗎你一下說他是1.3%的人你現階段你又在剛剛回答說那他可以離開啊所以我要問的第二個問題你現在會不會秋後算帳這些人"},{"start":310.799,"end":334.931,"text":"我為什麼要邱鶴擅長因為看起來你剛剛態度就是很強硬所以你被請他們離開啊看我的態度跟我看你的態度也都差不多吧那你怎麼可以在國會電台這邊請人家離開國會議員 郭部長我們現在不要動氣好不好是你在講的嘛我們調回剛剛的事實嘛你剛剛說他不高興他可以離開啊他當然啦 我們沒有要求他說你這個不可以離開啊"},{"start":336.687,"end":354.182,"text":"你這種態度就是漠視這些發聲的人嘛那怎麼講呢 對不對我就希望你就是事實回答他今天在經濟部的地上陳情書剛剛我也講了這些實際他們所發言的東西而且台電 他如果對台電不滿報告委員 報告委員他如果對台電不滿 他可以到台電去"},{"start":364.07,"end":372.294,"text":"經濟部是主管機關啦經濟部整個能源政策是主管機關你不要推給台電那我請教你就你說的話嘛國內約有84%的電力將轉由火力發電這是事實吧沒有錯是81%轉成84%好那我想請問一下晚上沒有太陽無風無雨那請問一下晚上火力發電會達到多少"},{"start":392.688,"end":393.851,"text":"會不會將近一百沒有太陽能啊無風無雨啊"},{"start":403.669,"end":424.219,"text":"你這個假設情況的機率非常的小好我跟你講我們還有地熱還有水力我當然知道所以我說將近一百嘛我剛剛是說將近一百我沒有跟你講說是百分百嘛你這樣講的是你不是這個意思嗎那我問你嘛晚上無風無雨或者是沒有太陽晚上一定沒有太陽吧是84%嗎是84%火力發電嗎"},{"start":429.363,"end":443.817,"text":"多少我要看數字一定會增加對不對一定會增加對不對報告委員就我們的這個資料顯示就是87%是全年的平均全年的平均"},{"start":444.946,"end":466.909,"text":"你用全年的平均來跟我回答好我們現階段要跟大家講的是台中市是最痛苦的一手拿著我們的稅金去所謂的撥補一手漲著我們的電價再來火力發電都在台中最大宗現階段燃氣機組準備要上線"},{"start":468.106,"end":493.132,"text":"你藍莓機組不願意換王美花說願意 之前願意的承諾的條件那請問一下郭部長 換到你王美花說的還算不算數藍棲機組換藍莓機組我們本來就是藍棲機組換藍莓機組但你還有沒有備而不用嘛備而不用這個是另外一個安全上面的考量嘛會有這樣的安全考量就是因為我們缺電嘛就是電不夠多嘛"},{"start":494.389,"end":504.014,"text":"所以基本上你就是希望當整個緊急有問題的時候甚至有這些問題產生的時候你們所謂的跳電然後就要產生我們的機器來使用啊"},{"start":505.916,"end":530.182,"text":"安全不是說電力不夠叫做安全有一些國防的issue也叫做安全那我要講的是中部地區啊也包含彰化我們在火力發電抗議的時候彰化王縣長也來到現場中部地區的空汙實在是非常嚴重所以我們希望經濟部啊真的要檢討現在的能源政策並且我希望這些員工他們發聲雖然是少數"},{"start":532.122,"end":557.85,"text":"我尊重你的說法但是我們一定要尊重他們的聲音並且能夠保障他們的工作權我們一定尊重少數我沒有講說不尊重少數喔我們當然是尊重少數我只是說他是自由的他可以表達他的意思這樣很好但是您剛剛不要提到說他不高興他可以離開那您感覺就是說你不要來做啊你不要隨便定義我的話"},{"start":558.45,"end":576.535,"text":"你不要講這樣的話啦你不要隨便定義我的話保障這些人的工作權我的話我自己定義你不要隨便定義我的話你講出來了你就接受可受公平嗎我當然接受 但是我講的是我定義不是你定義這些我就不再跟你再多做了因為趙委一直在說時間到了 不好意思喔謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":763,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時26分）謝謝召委。有請部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，我們看一下照片，部長你知道今天氣候先鋒者聯盟發起人楊家法，也是台電員工，帶著台電員工將近百位剛剛在經濟部抗議，您知道這件事嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我有收到報告。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那您知道他們的訴求嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我今天早上還沒有到經濟部。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那您知道他們的訴求嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：嗯？"],["羅委員廷瑋：知道他們的訴求嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不清楚。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，第一個，他們都認為，現階段台電並沒有公開透明，並沒有負起責任，並且相關的政策是大量的虧錢。其中就舉到一個，人事開銷方面，你們說一年撙節了4億，但是錯誤的能源政策4天就燒掉了9億。部長，他們今天所有人的訴求，在經濟部，在你的經濟部面前抗議，你有沒有要回應一下？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想一個團體裡面，我們台電大概有3萬個員工，那一百多個人是不是都我台電的，我也不太清楚。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我剛剛有特別確認，他跟我講，今天同仁至少100位是台電的同仁，不是路人甲、乙、丙、丁。"],["郭部長智輝：是，但也是我們……"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是你要跟我講3萬個人……"],["郭部長智輝：我們台電公司有3萬個人。"],["羅委員廷瑋：然後只有100個人到現場，它是少數的意思嗎？難道所有其他公民團體抗議就不能夠代表他們一定的聲音嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：他是不是代表一定的聲音，或者是他只是自己個人的聲音，我不太清楚。"],["羅委員廷瑋：100個員工就是一股力量、一股聲音嘛！我今天就是說他們的訴求……"],["郭部長智輝：是，但是我要跟委員報告的就是，我們的員工有3萬人。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是你不能說有3萬人，他就是少數，所以他聲音不重要，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我不是說他不重要，不重要是你說的！"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你不需要跟我講你台電員工有沒有3萬人。"],["郭部長智輝：但我只是告訴你，你跟我講有100人，我跟你講我們有3萬人嘛！"],["羅委員廷瑋：今天重點是有一群台電的員工，他們願意站出來，願意表達他們的心聲，他們是現職的員工，但是他們不畏強勢，他們願意站出來，我想問你的是你願不願意回應他們嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：回應什麼啊？我不知道他在訴求什麼。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對不起，我剛剛跟你講的時候，你在旁邊跟人家聊天啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我沒有跟他聊天，我是在問我們有多少人，我沒有聊天喔！"],["羅委員廷瑋：第一，他說你們講撙節開銷，將所謂的人事開銷一年省了4億，但是錯誤的能源政策4天燒掉9億，他是台電人，他看不下去，整個錯誤的能源政策讓台電面臨巨大的虧損，您怎麼回應？"],["郭部長智輝：是嗎？是這樣嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：那你覺得台電是賺錢喔？台電賺大錢喔！"],["郭部長智輝：你認為……"],["羅委員廷瑋：如果台電是賺大錢，現在還需要撥補嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：你認為是那個造成我們虧損嗎？你認為是他講的造成我的虧損嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你認為是賺錢，沒有虧損？"],["郭部長智輝：我沒有說它是賺錢，但是你認為它是虧損喔？"],["羅委員廷瑋：這是他們目前講出來的數據。"],["郭部長智輝：那是不是要就虧損這件事情來討論？"],["羅委員廷瑋：您到現在只是要跟我在這邊鬥嘴，沒有意義啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我沒有跟你鬥嘴，是你老是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我說他現在提出的數據，您可不可以回應？您認為呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我不知道要回應什麼！"],["羅委員廷瑋：他說虧錢，錯誤的能源政策……"],["郭部長智輝：虧錢有很多種原因，不能講這個事情是什麼能源政策，他是專家嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：他是第一線實際在台電上班的員工，看不下去啊！那請問一下，您這樣講，那您是專家啦？"],["郭部長智輝：他看不下去喔……"],["羅委員廷瑋：那您是專家嗎？不好意思……"],["郭部長智輝：坦白講，他看不下去，他離開啊！"],["羅委員廷瑋：您是專家嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對不對？看不下去，沒有人要他留在這裡嘛！"],["羅委員廷瑋：您講這句話，我就要問你了，現階段你說請他離開，你會不會秋後算帳？這些人為了自己的心聲、為了全國百姓的聲音說出來……"],["郭部長智輝：我們講了很多次喔！"],["羅委員廷瑋：你說請他離開，你是不是要秋後算帳？"],["郭部長智輝：這是你講的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那你為什麼要請他離開？"],["郭部長智輝：這是你講的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你為什麼要在國會殿堂講說請他離開？"],["郭部長智輝：這是你講的，我在國會殿堂講，你要就事實來論述，你不能夠隨便亂講。"],["羅委員廷瑋：今天我是轉述這些團體，他們的聲音……"],["郭部長智輝：你是國會議員，你要怎麼用1.3%的人來講這件事情？第二個，4億的話，你知道我們一年有多少營業額嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：你又著重在1.3%，你現在就是覺得他們人數少，看不起他們嗎？你都不就我剛剛問的問題來回答，第一，我說他們的心聲是這樣，你願不願意回答？你一下說他是專家嗎？一下說他是1.3%的人；現階段你剛剛又回答說那他可以離開啊！所以我要問的第二個問題：你現在會不會針對這些人秋後算帳？"],["郭部長智輝：我為什麼要秋後算帳？你告訴我。"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為你剛剛的態度看起來就是很強硬，你說可以請他們離開啊！"],["郭部長智輝：你看我的態度跟我看你的態度，也都差不多吧！"],["羅委員廷瑋：那你怎麼可以在國會殿堂請人家離開？"],["主席：好！不好意思，羅委員、郭部長，我們現在不要動氣。"],["郭部長智輝：是你在講的嘛！你在講一個事實。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們調回剛剛的錄影帶，你剛剛說：他不高興，他可以離開啊！"],["郭部長智輝：當然，我們沒有要求他不可以離開啊！"],["羅委員廷瑋：你這樣的態度就是漠視這些發生事件的人。"],["郭部長智輝：那要怎麼講呢？"],["羅委員廷瑋：我就希望你就事實回答，他今天在經濟部有遞上陳情書，剛剛我也講了，實際他們所發言的內容……"],["郭部長智輝：我也沒有收到他的陳情書，報告委員，他如果對台電不滿可以向台電陳情，他找我……有很多陳情管道可以往上反映，我們也都有員工反映信箱。"],["羅委員廷瑋：經濟部是主管機關，經濟部是整個能源政策的主管機關，你不要推給台電，那我請教你，就你說的話，國內約有84%電力將轉由火力發電，這是事實吧？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有錯，是從81%轉成84%。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，那我想請問一下，晚上沒有太陽、無風無雨，晚上火力發電會達到多少？會不會將近100%？沒有太陽能，無風無雨啊！"],["郭部長智輝：你這個假設情況的機率非常小。我跟你講，我們還有地熱、還有水力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我當然知道，所以我說將近100%，我沒有跟你說是100%嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：你現在講的……不是這個意思？"],["羅委員廷瑋：我問你晚上無風無雨或沒有太陽，晚上一定沒有太陽吧！這樣是84%火力發電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是多少我要看數字。"],["羅委員廷瑋：一定會增加，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，就我們的資料顯示，這87%是全年的平均。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你用全年的平均來回答我。好，現階段要跟大家講的是，臺中市是最痛苦的，一手拿著我們的稅金去撥補台電；一手漲著我們的電價，再來火力發電最大宗都在臺中，現階段燃氣機組準備要上線，你燃煤機組不願意換。王美花之前承諾願意的條件，請問一下郭部長，換你上任後，王美花說的燃氣機組換燃煤機組還算不算數？"],["郭部長智輝：我們本來就是燃氣機組換燃煤機組。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但你還有沒有備而不用？"],["郭部長智輝：備而不用這是另外一個安全上的考量。"],["羅委員廷瑋：會有這樣的安全考量，就是因為我們缺電、就是電不夠多，所以基本上你希望當整個電力緊急有問題的時候，甚至當問題產生的時候，發生所謂的跳電，然後才會使用到備用機組。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，安全不只是電力不夠，有一些國防的issue也叫做安全……"],["羅委員廷瑋：召委在催我，我要講的是中部地區也包含彰化，我們在針對火力發電廠抗議的時候，彰化王縣長也來到現場，中部地區的空污實在是非常嚴重，所以我們希望經濟部真的要檢討現在的能源政策，並且我希望雖然發聲的是少數的員工，我尊重你的說法，但是我們一定要尊重他們的聲音，並且能夠保障他們的工作權，我再一次拜託。"],["郭部長智輝：我們一定尊重少數，我沒有講不尊重少數喔！"],["羅委員廷瑋：請你不要隨意地講出「他可以離開」這樣的話，真的不好。"],["郭部長智輝：我們一定尊重少數，我只是說他是自由的，他可以表達他的意識。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這樣很好，但是你剛剛不要提到說：他不高興，他可以離開。你給人的感覺就是那你不要來做啊！"],["郭部長智輝：你不要隨便定義我的話。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你不要講這樣的話，要保障這些人的工作權。"],["郭部長智輝：我的話我自己定義，你不要隨便定義我的話。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你講出來了，你就要接受可受公評嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我當然接受，但是我講的話是我定義，不是你定義。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這些我就不跟你再多說了，因為召委一直在催。"],["主席：時間到了，不好意思，謝謝。","現在請蘇清泉委員做詢答，蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束；委員林岱樺所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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12.3所以從今年行政院院長所提出來的報告到去年你們年底的時候所給我的預估清楚的看得出來我們再生能源占比整個進度是落後的本來你們預估是12.3結果實際上面只有11.6現實上面的狀況是這個樣子好來蔡英文她在"},{"start":333.513,"end":344.096,"text":"之前2025再生人員20票票了嘛那現在賴清德心喊的是再生人員2026會達到20%達得到嗎我們在努力在努力嘛你們經濟部給我的報告預估是達到多少你知道嗎這白紙黑字啊這個都有經濟部給我的資料啊上面寫上面寫18.9啊"},{"start":361.021,"end":379.896,"text":"上面寫18.9所以連你們經濟部的報告我分兩個層次講第一個經濟部的報告事實上你們的預測跟實際的進度比起來你們的預測已經過度樂觀了第二個我即使按照你們自己所提出來的預測到2026年年底一樣不會達到20%對不對是吧"},{"start":385.339,"end":398.7,"text":"我們現在在努力嘛現在在努力嘛那針對有關於2026要達標的這件事情經濟部現在有鑒於過去的評估已經失準了嗎現在還有沒有在做新的評估出來"},{"start":399.79,"end":428.564,"text":"我們從各個太陽能、離岸風險、地熱、小水利全部把它加起來然後我們現在重新的訂目標重新去整合我們管理的模式改變希望2026年能達到2028年包括你那個管理的模式最新的數據出來了嗎因為從你去年11月給我的數據到今天的角度上面來看就完全失準了"},{"start":429.281,"end":441.795,"text":"那你剛剛有講你們重新有管理模式重新訂目標全部都要加起來非常的好這些新的數據新的預估可以提供嗎我們來做這個報告給你可以嗎好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":711,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時18分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。針對台灣民眾黨立法院黨團所提出來核三延役的公投，您日前在接受媒體訪問的時候，你說這很簡單，只要修法不需要公投，我相信那個直播應該有忠實傳達部長的意思。不過我還想再確定一下，第一個是，所以部長你的意思是只要修法通過，行政部門會執行核三的延役嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我的意思是，只要通過這個法，我在這個法的框架之下應該執行的任務，我不會退卻。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以你還是沒有回答我的問題，法修過只是幫你們在延役的部分除去法規上面的障礙，這是確定的事情，但是立法者可以幫你們除去法規上的障礙，障礙除去掉以後，核三要不要延役這件事情，權力還是在行政部門手上，為了慎重起見，所以我才請教部長，您的意思是，只要法修正通過了以後，行政部門會推動核三延役嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想是這個樣子，這個法通過了，經濟部是不是可以獨立來執行這個法，我想我們經濟部可能沒有那麼大的權限。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，你就代表經濟部發言就好了。"],["郭部長智輝：我代表經濟部，我是經濟部長，我當然是代表經濟部發言。"],["黃委員國昌：對，這個我知道，所以你就代表經濟部發言。"],["郭部長智輝：這個是行政院的職責……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這是行政院才能決定的事情？是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：行政院有要求我們執行的時候，我們一定會執行。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！好，現在下一個問題，公投通過了以後，你覺得行政院要不要執行？"],["郭部長智輝：公投通過了以後行政院要不要執行，行政院會有判斷。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院會判斷？依法行政院可以判斷嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：啊？"],["黃委員國昌：依法行政院可以判斷嗎？公投通過了以後，行政院還有判斷餘地嗎？行政院還可以自己判斷？人民公投的結果出來了以後，行政院還可以自己判斷要不要執行公投的結果？行政院有這個權力嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我不是行政院院長，所以我也不知道我有沒有這個權力。"],["黃委員國昌：其實你不需要是行政院院長就可以知道，因為公民投票法裡面已經規範得非常清楚了，公民投票法規範有關於重大政策，公投通過了以後，就應該由總統或權責機關來實現。否則的話，我們的公民投票法是訂好玩的嗎？所以從這個觀點上面來講，我們立法院幫你們除去了法規上面的障礙，行政院要不要往前再邁一步這件事情，你說你是經濟部長，沒有辦法代表行政院院長發言，這個我尊重。但問題是，我要提醒的是什麼？我要提醒的是依照公民投票法的規定，這種重大政策的公民投票通過了以後，總統或行政權責機關就要執行，這個是法律明確的規定！這是法律明確的規定！到時候行政部門就沒有選擇餘地了。"],["郭部長智輝：當然！"],["黃委員國昌：當然嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：我們同意啊！"],["黃委員國昌：如果是這個樣子的話，你覺得這公投有沒有意義？還是沒意義嗎？這公投意義非常的大啊！公投通過，行政部門就要執行啊！跟單純的立法部門除去掉法規範的障礙以後，行政院要不要執行，行政院還可以做決定，兩個法律狀態完全不一樣啊！我有說錯嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：法律的部分，我尊重委員的……"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係。第二個部分，我上次請教卓榮泰，2025再生能源達到20%，大概這個是確定跳票了啦！現在賴清德總統他希望能夠達成的目標是2026年年底以前，再生能源達到20%，這在媒體上講了非常多次了。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我去年請教卓榮泰的時候，目標大家都會喊，怎麼樣達到那個目標的路徑，才是重要的事情。但很遺憾，可能是卓榮泰去年剛上台，我問他這個問題的時候，他一問三不知，我事後也給行政院，包括經濟部，補交作業的機會。我先請教一下部長，2024年年底我們再生能源的占比達到百分之多少？"],["郭部長智輝：去年是11.5。"],["黃委員國昌：去年是11.5，其實具體的數字應該是11.6。我為什麼敢這樣講？我秀給部長看，因為這個是行政院的施政報告，在今年到立法院來的施政報告，他講的是11.6，我相信施政報告上面寫的數字是正確的，但是去年年底的時候，你知不知道經濟部所提給我的報告，到2024年的時候，你們的預估是達到百分之多少？"],["郭部長智輝：這上面寫12.3。"],["黃委員國昌：12.3，所以從今年行政院院長所提出來的報告，到去年年底的時候，你們所給我的預估，清楚地看得出來，我們再生能源占比整個進度是落後的，本來你們預估是12.3，結果實際上面只有11.6。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["黃委員國昌：現實上面的狀況是這個樣子。蔡英文在之前的2025再生能源20%跳票了，現在賴清德新喊的是再生能源2026會達到20%，達得到嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們再努力。"],["黃委員國昌：再努力嘛！你們經濟部給我的報告預估是達到多少，你知道嗎？這白紙黑字，這個都有經濟部給我的資料。"],["郭部長智輝：上面寫……"],["黃委員國昌：上面寫18.9啊！所以連你們經濟部的報告，我分兩個層次講，第一個，經濟部的報告，事實上，你們的預測跟實際的進度比起來，你們的預測已經過度樂觀了。第二個，我即使按照你們自己所提出來的預測，到2026年底，一樣不會達到20%，對不對？是吧？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在在努力嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：現在在努力嘛！針對有關於2026要達標的這件事情，經濟部現在有鑑於過去的評估已經失準，現在還有沒有再做新的評估出來？"],["郭部長智輝：我們從太陽能，還有離岸風電……"],["黃委員國昌：是，全部把它加起來。"],["郭部長智輝：地熱、小水利……"],["黃委員國昌：是，全部把它加起來。"],["郭部長智輝：然後我們現在重新訂目標，重新去整合，我們管理的模式改變……"],["黃委員國昌：是，好。"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望2026年能夠達到20%。"],["黃委員國昌：那你們重新訂的目標，包括管理的模式，最新的數據出來了嗎？因為從你去年11月給我的數據，到今天的角度上面來看，就完全失準了嘛！你剛剛有講，你們重新有管理模式、重新訂目標，全部都要加起來，非常的好！這些新的數據、新的預估，可以提供嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好，我們來做這個報告給你。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嘛！好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請羅廷瑋委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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陽泉發言邀請部長郭部長"},{"start":19.19,"end":35.427,"text":"最近电价议题引发了讨论那请问电价长不长到底是谁可以决定呢电价审议委员但是我没有看到过去你们都这么说都告诉我这么说是电价审议委员但是呢"},{"start":36.428,"end":50.203,"text":"我們看到賴總統行政院最近都接力的說撥補了1000億就可以不調電價請問這不就代表著電價調漲是政府在背後決定嗎報告委員"},{"start":54.915,"end":74.388,"text":"我們是可以把我們的情況跟未來發展的我們改善他的這個財務情形然後讓委員去做決定委員是獨立的當然這是之前部長一直告訴我的是由電價委員會來做決定我也建請你將我們所討論的內容給電價評議委員會審議委員會但是總統先生這麼說"},{"start":81.172,"end":96.661,"text":"行政院這麼說他們說了算了嗎是嗎不是 報告委員是這樣子總統當然他了解非常大的狀況今天台電因為財務的狀況導致於他疲於奔命為什麼"},{"start":97.481,"end":101.085,"text":"他已經90%負債了所以總統先生說的你聽不聽如果說這個撥補了1000億就可以不調漲電價你會照著他說的去執行之嗎我們大概這個是一個邏輯的評論一個邏輯的評論"},{"start":114.66,"end":133.991,"text":"總統邏輯的評論一千億下去那麼可以改善他的財務那麼我們也會建請所有的審議委員他們是不是可以朝著不漲價的方向來考量所以您現在所說的總統先生我們在媒體上看到的是說他是一個邏輯的評論是嗎他只是這樣講所以不是真的不是撥補一千億就不會漲價是嗎"},{"start":143.818,"end":163.056,"text":"這個委員你不能這樣子講總統講的時候那個情境只是告訴大家我今天撥補一千億那我大概這個方式可以讓台電在將來再考慮要不要重新調整價格的時候可以考慮是不是不漲價"},{"start":164.257,"end":181.713,"text":"所以還是問號還不是決定號所以本期要請教這一次的預算特別預算裡頭4100億當中我們也有行政院也包括要撥補台電1000億元這就是剛剛我們所討論的如果你可以說撥補了1000億你就不漲價當然我們有討論的空間"},{"start":186.536,"end":200.032,"text":"你點頭你點頭那所以本家已經叫我是同意你現在講話喔我怎麼很怕你如果我點頭你就說我同意不是啊我們兩個在尋答嗎要講清楚吧所以總統今天這麼說我也要請你說明清楚啊對不對請說明不是啊那你現在"},{"start":205.209,"end":225.462,"text":"說我點頭的這件事情我只是呼應你剛才在講的這一句話非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊 呼應對呀非常好啊"},{"start":233.968,"end":248.521,"text":"不要變成財務的黑洞那當然有討論的空間嘛那所以本期要告訴你因為以前我們已經砸了3000億來撥補那店家又多次的這個調漲民生的部分統計大概是40%"},{"start":249.782,"end":272.839,"text":"所以到現在還是虧損繼續跟人民這個繼續要漲價啊所以在這樣子的話之下證明我們真正的原因是我們的能源政策它的來源它的來源才是最重要的根基啊報告委員我們大家都很清楚台灣的能源是多元的能源"},{"start":273.755,"end":289.211,"text":"各種能源我們能夠用的我們都用好部長你講的這個就非常好我們能夠用的我們都要用但是我們能夠用的本席告訴你我們廢核把核電平均最低的1.12元成本最低的要廢掉不用"},{"start":289.992,"end":315.155,"text":"煤跟氣的一個發電成本是2.5塊到3塊左右你像開發商所買的風、光、電是5塊到6塊半這也就是您所說的各種能源我們都需要用但是我們就是有學者來支出我們統計的這個數字說去年購入火力發電跟風、光、電的這個額外支出那就會加總又超過了600億"},{"start":316.636,"end":320.599,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下本席要請教我們現在再生能源的發展跟不上你電力的這個需求嘛所以你必須要買你必須要買這是你虧損的主要原因啊我們要怎麼樣去調整要怎麼樣去調整我們目前政府"},{"start":337.831,"end":354.823,"text":"又貴又錯又缺的這個能源政策啊我們要怎樣去調整我告訴你在你回答之前在你回答之前81%的是這個化石的這個材料因為它是過去的漲價導致於我們在成本上面的高啦"},{"start":355.043,"end":363.132,"text":"所以部長你這麼說就是本席繼續要跟你討論的台電自己本身所提出的財務改善計畫他特別說了實話他說就算你3000億萬再撥補2000億2026年到2027年他一樣會虧損"},{"start":372.162,"end":377.424,"text":"因為台電說他沒有辦法單靠自身努力去達到損益兩平而且他還具體建議如果燃料成本波動可考量適度的調整民生電價或政府持續的補助民生用電這是台電自己所提出的財務的一個報告所以看到這些本席要請教"},{"start":399.112,"end":403.336,"text":"撥補完還要漲價 漲價完還要再撥補那這怎麼辦呢北京絕對據實的要求不能把人民當為是體管機這一點非常重要 你們應該要從你的能源政策真正的去探討這才是重點啊 部長 您請說明"},{"start":421.07,"end":439.247,"text":"報告委員我想你們的這個指教我們都會參考我們也會去檢討為什麼他會這樣子說他到這個2026年27年還是虧損那我們會檢討他在上面的報告的內容到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":440.862,"end":458.629,"text":"部長這是台電自己本身所提出的報告也就是他們真正所需要的所以你經濟部應該要好好的去協助他們你必須釜底抽薪從能源政策去檢討啊要不然你告訴我們說總統先生所說的你認為他是一個評論"},{"start":461.621,"end":470.314,"text":"那人民到底要依靠什麼要依靠什麼原本大家還講你如果真的撥補了1000億就不會漲價你可以答應我們嗎你可以答應我們嗎如果我有這個權利的話"},{"start":477.213,"end":490.097,"text":"你是部長啊你沒有這個權利啊所以本席本來要問你如果撥補了一千億你要答應我們不漲價是一年半年還多少年你告訴我你沒有這個權利那我們民眾要怎麼辦呢這個漲不漲價是"},{"start":493.419,"end":504.35,"text":"這個電價審議委員會的權利嘛我怎麼可能是好 那這個議題我也希望你來反映民眾不可以當為提款機你們必須要真正的從能源的根據去討論那最後一個議題喔我要請問我們說要購買SMR"},{"start":509.915,"end":534.982,"text":"那我也聽到你的專訪 我很歡喜因為我們採開放的態度所以本學要請教 未來不排除採購小型模組化的這個反應爐 SMR那我們目前的政府 您說我們有在做規劃 有在推動這個技術請教目前的進度規劃如何呢那我們是不是代表著政府不再堅持非核家園 請教"},{"start":536.267,"end":556.776,"text":"報告委員我們講過了對新的科技的能源新的科技的這個能源科技我們並沒有排除基本上在這個它是安全的它是核廢料可以處理的那麼人民有共識在這個三個前提之下我們都歡迎討論所以目前我們您所專訪所提出的SMR我們確實有在規劃"},{"start":558.803,"end":578.569,"text":"我們有在討論這個議題我們也希望有一個方向也可以告訴我們但是本席要告訴你因為每一次討論到這個議題也就是環境基本法23條本席也有提案也就是逐步達成非核家園改成淨零碳排的目標你同意吧"},{"start":579.895,"end":609.19,"text":"方向應該是這個這個我們如果是這個立法院的決定我們當然一定要尊重好所以如果這個法案通過也就是換句話說取消非核家園喔那麼您是支持的那本席也希望大家一起來支持因為目前我們必須跟世界來接軌也就是說環境基本法是一個關鍵者所以本席再請教您既然支持這個方向本席也有提案很多的委員也有提案那請教行政院會提案嗎"},{"start":610.01,"end":625.824,"text":"因為你這個版如果沒有改你其他的開放態度都沒有辦法落實只要大院通過的大院通過的我們當然可以尊重啊你會執行嗎行政院版會提出嗎行政院版會提出嗎這個跟"},{"start":629.582,"end":656.898,"text":"那個環境部的事情 不是經濟部的事情所以本席問你啊 行政院本啊我是經濟部長你是經濟部長 當然你要參與其中你不要用思維去瞭解啊對不對 你要參與其中去瞭解啊這個是政府橫向組織非常重要所以您剛才回答一句話 也就是說如果立法院通過 你會遵循之我依法依規 我一定要遵循好 謝謝 我們一起加油好 謝謝 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":644,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時7分）謝謝主席。楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。最近電價議題引發了討論，請問電價漲不漲到底是誰可以決定呢？"],["郭部長智輝：電價審議委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是我沒有看到，過去你們都這麼說，都告訴我是電價審議委員，但是我們看到賴總統、行政院最近都接力地說撥補了1,000億就可以不調電價，請問這不就代表著電價調漲是政府在背後決定嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：電，我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們是可以把我們的情況跟未來發展的……我們改善它的財務情形，然後讓委員去做決定，委員是獨立的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然這是之前部長你一直告訴我的，是由電價委員會來做決定，我也建請你將我們所討論的內容給電價審議委員會，但是總統現在這麼說、行政院這麼說，他們說了算嗎？是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，報告委員，是這樣子，總統當然他了解非常大的狀況，今天台電因為財務狀況導致於它疲於奔命，為什麼？它已經90%負債了，一年……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以總統先生說的你聽不聽？如果說撥補了1,000億就可以不調漲電價，你會照著他所說的去執行嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們大概……這個是一個邏輯的評論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一個邏輯的評論？總統邏輯的評論？"],["郭部長智輝：對，就是1,000億下去可以改善它的財務，那麼我們也會建請所有的審議委員是不是可以朝著不漲價的方向來考量。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以部長您現在所說，我們在媒體上看到的總統先生的說法是一個邏輯的評論是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：他只是這樣講，就像我撥補1,000……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他只是這樣講，所以不是真的，不是撥補1,000億就不會漲價是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，委員，你不能這樣子講。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不然要怎麼說呢？請做說明。"],["郭部長智輝：總統講的時候，那個情境只是告訴大家，今天撥補1,000億，大概這個方式可以讓台電將來在考慮要不要重新調整價格的時候，可以考慮是不是不漲價？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以還是問號，還不是決定號。本席要請教，在這一次的4,100億特別預算當中，行政院也包裹要撥補台電1,000億元，這就是剛剛我們所討論的，如果你可以說撥補了1,000億就不漲價，當然我們有討論的空間，你點頭了，所以本席要請教……"],["郭部長智輝：我是同意你現在講話，我現在很怕耶！我如果點頭，你就說我同意。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是，我們兩個在詢答嘛！要講清楚嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是，那我同意你剛才講的那一句話。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以總統現在這麼說，我也要請你說明清楚，對不對？請說明。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，你現在說我點頭的這件事情，我只是呼應你剛才在講的這一句話，我是講說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，非常好啊！呼應對啊。"],["郭部長智輝：我是禮貌上尊敬你講的話。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝你，就是不管怎麼樣，我們兩個是在詢答，我們希望能夠讓民眾了解，民眾希望知道真的答案是什麼……"],["郭部長智輝：是，所以我……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以如果你撥補1,000億可以改善台電整體財務體質，穩定供電，不要變成財務的黑洞，那當然有討論的空間。本席要告訴你，因為以前我們已經砸了3,000億來撥補，電價又多次調漲，民生的部分統計大概是40%，所以到現在還是虧損，還要繼續漲價，在這樣的情況之下，證明真正的原因是我們的能源政策，能源的來源才是最重要的根基。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們大家都很清楚，臺灣的能源是多元的能源，各種能源我們能夠用的我們都用，但是不能夠……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，部長，你講的這個就非常好，我們能夠用的我們都要用，但是我們能夠用的，本席告訴你，我們廢核，要把平均成本最低的1.42元核電廢掉不用，煤跟氣的發電成本是2.5塊到3塊左右，而向開發商所買的風、光電是5塊到6塊半。這也就是您所說的，各種能源我們都需要用，但就是有學者指出，統計的數字顯示去年購入火力發電跟風、光電的額外支出，加總起來就超過了600億。在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教，我們現在再生能源的發展跟不上電力的需求，所以你必須要買，這是你虧損的主要原因，我們要怎麼樣去調整，目前政府又貴、又錯、又缺的能源政策要怎麼樣去調整，我告訴你，在你回答之前，部長……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在81%是化石材料，因為它過去的漲價，導致我們在成本上面的提高。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以部長你這麼說，就是本席繼續要跟你討論的，台電自己本身所提出的財務改善計畫，它特別說了實話，它說就算在3,000億外再撥補2,000億，2026年到2027年一樣會虧損，因為台電說它沒有辦法單靠自身努力達到損益兩平，而且還具體建議，若燃料成本波動，可考量適度調整民生電價或政府持續補助民生用電，這是台電自己所提出的財務報告。所以看到這些，本席要請教，撥補完還要漲價，漲價完還要再撥補，這怎麼辦呢？本席絕對要求，不能把人民當成提款機，這一點非常重要，應該要從你的能源政策真正地去探討，這才是重點啊！部長，您請說明。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想你們的指教，我們都會參考，我們也會去檢討為什麼它會這樣子說，它到2026年、2027年還是虧損，我們會檢討它的報告內容到底是怎麼樣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，這是台電自己本身所提出的報告，也就是他們真正所需要的……"],["郭部長智輝：是啦，所以我……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以經濟部應該要好好去協助他們，必須釜底抽薪，從能源政策去檢討，要不然你告訴我們，總統先生所說的，你認為是一個評論，那人民到底要依靠什麼？要依靠什麼？原本大家講，如果真的撥補了1,000億就不會漲價，你可以答應我們嗎？你可以答應我們嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：如果我有這個權力的話，可惜我沒有那個權力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你是部長啊！你沒有這個權力啊？"],["郭部長智輝：部長也不能夠決定，部長沒有這個權力，因為……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席本來要問你，如果撥補了1,000億，你要答應我們不漲價是一年、半年還是多少年，你告訴我你沒有這個權力，那我們民眾要怎麼辦呢？"],["郭部長智輝：當然沒有這個權力啊，漲不漲價是電價審議委員會的權力嘛，我怎麼可能代電價審議委員會來決定呢？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這個議題我也希望你反映，民眾不可以被當成提款機，你們必須要真正地從能源的根基去討論。","最後一個議題，我要請問，你們說要購買SMR，我也聽到你的專訪，我很歡喜，因為你們採開放的態度，所以本席要請教，未來不排除採購小型模組化反應爐SMR，您說目前政府有在做規劃、有在推動這個技術，請教目前的進度、規劃如何呢？是不是代表著政府不再堅持非核家園？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們講過了，對新的能源科技，我們並沒有排除……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，非常好。"],["郭部長智輝：基本上它是安全的，它的核廢料是可以處理的，人民有共識，在這三個前提之下，我們都歡迎討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以您在專訪所提出的SMR，這部分確實有在規劃？"],["郭部長智輝：我們有在討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有在討論這個議題，好，我們也希望有一個方向也可以告訴我們。但是本席要告訴你，因為每一次討論到這個議題，也就是環境基本法第二十三條，本席也有提案，也就是逐步達成非核家園，改成淨零碳排的目標，你同意吧？"],["郭部長智輝：方向應該是……這如果是立法院的決議，我們當然一定要尊重。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，如果這個法案通過，換句話說也就是取消非核家園您是支持的，本席也希望大家一起來支持，因為我們必須跟世界接軌，也就是說環境基本法是一個關鍵者。所以本席再請教，您既然支持這個方向，本席有提案，很多的委員也有提案，請教行政院會提案嗎？因為這個法你如果沒有改，其他的開放態度都沒有辦法落實。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，只要是大院通過的，我們當然予以尊重。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你會執行嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們尊重。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會提出行政院版嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：那是環境部的事情，不是經濟部的事情。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席問你行政院版呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我是經濟部長，不要用……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你是經濟部長，當然你要參與其中去了解啊，對不對？你要參與其中去了解啊，政府橫向組織非常重要。所以您剛剛回答一句話，也就是說，如果立法院通過，你會遵循之？"],["郭部長智輝：依法依規，我一定要遵循立法院通過的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝，我們一起加油。"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請何欣純委員做詢答，何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","現在請黃國昌委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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一將來遇到重大疾病或者是沒有辦法清楚表達的時候"},{"start":71.553,"end":85.943,"text":"可以想要接受或拒絕哪些維持生命治療或人工營養的正式決定確保自己的醫療選擇能被尊重簡單來講我們要做一個這個開頭也算是宣講宣導一下所以我們針對於這件事情現行的這個我們今天要討論的吳懷呼就是跟"},{"start":93.849,"end":102.945,"text":"成效到底是怎麼樣然後以及為什麼成效不佳他的障礙有哪些可能包含著費用包含著宣傳不佳包含著國人觀念"},{"start":103.939,"end":126.164,"text":"那所以第一個就是想要問現在育立醫療照護的這個諮商ACP是採取類似自費的制度那它是成為民眾參與的比較大的障礙那根據媒體的報導或者是叫做不完全統計從最便宜可能有兩千元到最貴八千元等等還有價格不低那收費標準也比較混亂一點"},{"start":128.044,"end":149.803,"text":"那根据统计嘛2023年全台签署这个预立医疗决定就是AD的部分人数仅占成年人口的可能0.35%那刚刚也有人讲到0.45%总之就是蛮低的啦所以简单来讲推行这个很好的政策但是成效不佳那当然显见的刚刚有讲到第一个障碍可能跟费用有关"},{"start":150.464,"end":163.889,"text":"那有關於這個部分呢嘉義的陽明醫院的院長謝錦祥有指出ACP的人力成本高昂那現行的健保未納入給付導致醫院這個轉嫁成本至民眾形成經濟篩選的現象"},{"start":166.25,"end":193.613,"text":"而且此问题在非都会区更严重那六都签署的量占总数的72%而且其中的台北市占36%那也凸显了这个城乡资源的差距所以目前这个ACP是纳入健保给付的现行事办计划是涵盖刚刚有提到的几种比如说比较严重的病患癌末、前途失智或是公告重症居家照顾等四大类"},{"start":194.373,"end":215.12,"text":"那我們就想要請問像這個部分未來我們是不是要擴大至全民因為我剛剛也有委員說2026年的時候你們過去有宣示說2026年要擴大至全民但是今天的書面報告又提到尚需要深入的政策研議與詳細的預算規劃然後帶各界達成共識及實務運作更趨完備再行通盤監討修正"},{"start":223.163,"end":230.927,"text":"那我是覺得說那這個好像是跟你們原本預期的有很大的差距喔所以想要請問部長那你們現在具體的規劃跟配套細節到底是什麼遇到了什麼困難"},{"start":235.404,"end":258.91,"text":"好 我想如果能夠全民都來簽署這是非常好的理想那這當然牽涉到我們也檢討為什麼低的因素當然諮商費用是一個對 剛剛講過 費用一個重點那剛剛您一開始就幫忙先導真的很感謝我必須要再先導一下如果能夠簽討這個異例異組其實是愛的表現什麼叫愛的表現呢"},{"start":264.867,"end":281.253,"text":"就是愛你的家人因為你的子女到最後不曉得這個爸爸到底要不要插管要不要做什麼很痛苦如果你能夠事先表示好的話讓醫療人員能夠按照爸爸媽媽的一個心願去做"},{"start":282.692,"end":299.968,"text":"所以就是你去做好屹立一族其實是愛你家人的一個表現這個不是金錢所能衡量的那當然那個議事室也做了很多的一個規劃健保署也一直在努力啦當然這個要配合財務的規劃"},{"start":301.81,"end":319.308,"text":"對 謝謝所以我再進一步問因為剛剛有提到目前規劃大概是目前有的這個事辦是大概180萬人大概是54億然後要分階段那你們現在有沒有比較具體的實施的方式因為其實很重要的一點就是剛剛你們都有提到"},{"start":321.029,"end":327.513,"text":"這個其實是健康投資所以你做得好其實這個應該是絕對長期對於健保的財務是更好的對吧 對於這個對於整個財務的狀況應該是更好的是的所以你的問題是你們應該要具體的去"},{"start":337.077,"end":361.063,"text":"可不可以給本席報告因為你們目前就只講到這180萬人無私益的那這只是短期你們擔心短期一下子衝擊很大可是剛剛也講到不可能180萬人都去用嘛你要包含宣導還有包含觀念所以我在想這全民適用的部分是不是應該儘速推動你才有可能達到這個所謂的健康投資然後也可以在這個整個財務的狀況之下更加的有餘裕"},{"start":364.544,"end":390.978,"text":"我們一定循序漸進就好像說所以我知道你循序漸進但是部長我希望你們可以給本席一個具體的你們評估目前的衝擊以及你們打算的目標你到底在幾年你現在這一兩年你打算這樣子180萬人那明年達到多少什麼時候全民適用是不是可以在2026年達到你們所謂的標準或者是你做不到你要到2027年因為我想我們就在這裡做一個"},{"start":391.758,"end":407.706,"text":"做一個這個宣示所以希望請部長給我們一個具體的規劃不要用剛剛所謂說還要再討論還要再通盤檢討這樣子去拖延時間我相信你也是想要推動這個所以我覺得也要給自己一個目標去鞭策好不好"},{"start":408.146,"end":420.01,"text":"那再來喔因為剛剛有講到費用的部分啦所以就回扣到這個納入健保的部分所以剛剛有說有甚至有這個很多的有一個65歲的阿姨啊這個媒體訪問她這國際旅遊的這個領隊啊她退休之後其實她的這個財務狀況應該還不錯而且她觀念也算是比較開放但她還是不懂她就說她還是不懂為什麼要花錢去了解與選擇自己怎麼死"},{"start":433.095,"end":454.531,"text":"那最後也是聽到是免費他才去報名所以這在證明了剛剛就說這個要趕快把你們的目標達成然後另外呢目前醫院也採取這個團體諮商所以現在就講到觀念的部分雖然說他可以降低人均成本也是一個調整的方式可是現行的團體諮商很多都是數位評審的這個陌生人一體參加整個氣氛其實也是有點像是大型團購現場就會比較覺得跟我們國人的觀念有所衝擊"},{"start":462.677,"end":469.751,"text":"因為他對於生死的事情可能不像是國外可以接受這個陌生人一起的這種形式這部分是不是也有可以調整的空間"},{"start":473.25,"end":495.916,"text":"謝謝委員指教其實所以我們去年有針對團體智商這邊然後開始做一些算是輔導作業發現是說如果是家族朋友一起的這種效果最好對沒錯然後所以在這個地方我們其實已經開始針對醫院有做團體這邊有做一些輔導然後有一些給一些建議然後這些具體的建議要轉成文字變成"},{"start":497.036,"end":504.34,"text":"衛福部這邊出的一些所謂的建議或指引的部分的話應該是今年下半年才會逐步的討論不過已經有發現我們輔導團隊已經有發現相關的問題以上很好對這就是我要跟你們講的這個問題要"},{"start":511.568,"end":526.162,"text":"盡速的把它推動然後可以請到所有你們的具體的檢討報告和詳細的文字內容提供給本席辦公室好沒問題那再來就是全台約200多家的醫療機構有ACP服務可是全台的77%的鄉鎮市區是沒有諮商據點分佈不均"},{"start":530.026,"end":552.529,"text":"那今天的報告有提出要擴大ACP的規模但沒有具體寫到措施是什麼所以我們在想這部分是不是要針對偏鄉地區可不可以結合長照或銀髮關懷據點開設這種行動的諮商站那也參考這個日本的在宅醫療聯繫的模式與精神由巡迴的團隊提供服務也是一種推廣的方式"},{"start":553.71,"end":575.407,"text":"是不是可以這個都可以演繹演繹要做嘛要去做而且最重要是要維護他當時簽ACP的品質那我們也希望多利用到我們社區的醫療團隊是社區的醫療團隊我們鼓勵他們接受一定的訓練以後現在金手比便利商店多"},{"start":575.947,"end":594.819,"text":"所以部長我今天提出的問題都希望你們儘速研議完之後給本席一個報告因為我們都是針對剛剛講的三大方向提出的現在的困境要告訴部長請你們趕快去做出評估跟推動那再來還有一個也是觀念的部分民眾對於這個病毒存在三大誤解32%認同認為是這個安樂死28%擔心簽署後"},{"start":601.303,"end":626.241,"text":"遭放棄治療那19%認為是違反宗教教義然後此外還有家屬介入決策的傳統文化還很深那在2022年的高雄榮總的案例也顯示38%的這個AD簽署者遭親屬反對執行這都是實務上面你們要去克服的問題那另外我主要是要講那現行的法規的這個部分"},{"start":626.761,"end":640.171,"text":"第九條要求二等親的家屬參與諮商那是不是會造成這個反而造成家庭壓力那也是不是可以修法允許這個獨居者經社工評估後可以免除親屬認同"},{"start":643.097,"end":667.043,"text":"我先補充一下就是剛剛委員推行獨居者這部分其實目前如果獨居者自己簽主要的切結書其實醫院還是可以進行諮詢因為實務面就看到現在獨居長者其實相對逐步在增加當中這個在實務面已經做了相關的處理然後進一步我們在講的是其實要善終的部分的話剛剛委員有特別講到"},{"start":668.323,"end":686.357,"text":"周圍親友特別是家人的阻止的這件事也是當初在立法的時候為什麼希望家屬一起參與透過家屬參與的時候在最後那一個決定才比較容易尊重病人的一個自主這當初在設計的時候有這樣子的一個考量"},{"start":687.077,"end":707.455,"text":"結果論就是我剛剛講出來就是結果論所以還是一樣費用宣導跟觀念還是有很大的問題和精進的空間其實你們要去檢討這個部分所以我最後就要跟你們講到一件事情就是剛剛也有提到宣傳的部分我們有很多的政策宣傳宣導衛教說實在的內容都偏向深色難懂也很無趣"},{"start":708.115,"end":718.798,"text":"所以要做到好的效果蠻難的所以要請問部長一下如果某一個政令或是衛教宣導在你們臉書上要破千萬次的瀏覽量平均要花多少經費抓一個數字可以嗎我不知道請委員指教你抓不出來一個數字對不對其實以你們過去的你們過去的這些你看都才1.9萬次3208次1.6萬次其實都很少所以應該要去想更"},{"start":737.483,"end":756.253,"text":"更好更創意的方式所以我現在就告訴你一件事現在南投有一間醫院有一個小編他打破了宣導的困難內容無聊的刻板印象讓在他的衛教的宣導影片有很好的效果他大概的成績像下面半年內追蹤數增加了4.5萬單月瀏覽次數突破了數千萬互動也破了100多萬"},{"start":760.916,"end":786.753,"text":"所以你剛剛可能你們不曉得狀況可是你們在宣導上面的經費是非常高的所以我們在省經費預算的時候都知道可是這個小編他卻說他的薪水就是三萬元打死甚至沒有額外的花媒體採購的費用那院長這就是一個妥妥的人才所以他一PO出他三萬打死的時候他馬上一堆人下面挖角他然後可以印證這樣的人在我們的業界一定是很搶手"},{"start":787.734,"end":815.633,"text":"那釋逢今天是五一勞動節那我覺得當然講說這樣的薪水叫做壓榨可能過於沉重但現實面就是你們在這方面的宣導可能只靠這樣的熱情的小編是沒辦法留他太久所以我們是不是可以請我們的部長去了解一下這個案子然後也要真的下定決心讓這個在醫療體系裡面的行政人員這些人才應該要有更好的待遇才不會白白流失這個人才可以嗎"},{"start":815.973,"end":823.968,"text":"我們一定珍惜人才所以要改善他們的待遇這才是今天這個質詢的重要的意義謝謝部長好 謝謝好 謝謝廖瑞祥委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":435,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時55分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。今天我們討論這個議題是非常有意義的，我想要請教部長，可不可以簡單地用一句話來告訴國人什麼是我們今天討論的預立醫療？"],["邱部長泰源：預立醫療就是希望民眾能夠早一點來討論未來當他進入到幾種狀況，不管是末期或者是植物人，或永久性的傷害沒辦法恢復的情況之下，他的醫療選擇有哪些，先做自主性的選擇。"],["廖委員偉翔：為什麼要先開這個頭？我想很多人對於這個題目可能不是很清楚，簡單來講，預立醫療就是在自己還能夠清楚表達的時候，先和醫療團隊討論，寫下萬一將來遇到重大疾病或者是沒有辦法清楚表達的時候，可以接受或拒絕哪些維持生命治療或人工營養的正式決定，確保自己的醫療選擇能被尊重，對不對？簡單來講，我們要做一個開頭，也算是宣講、宣導一下。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：針對這件事情，我們今天要討論的無外乎就是成效到底怎麼樣，以及為什麼成效不佳，它的障礙有哪些，包含費用、宣傳不佳以及國人觀念。第一個，現在預立醫療照護諮商（ACP）是採取類似自費的制度，因此成為民眾參與比較大的障礙，根據媒體報導，或者是叫做不完全統計，從最便宜可能有2,000元到最貴8,000元等等，價格不低、收費標準也比較混亂一點。根據統計，2023年全臺簽署預立醫療決定（AD）的部分，人數僅占成年人口的0.35%，剛剛也有人提到0.45%，總之就是滿低的，所以推行這個很好的政策，但是成效不佳，顯見的，剛剛講到的第一個障礙可能跟費用有關。","關於這個部分，嘉義陽明醫院的院長謝景祥也指出，ACP的人力成本高昂，現行的健保未納入給付，導致醫院轉嫁成本至民眾，形成經濟篩選的現象，而且此問題在非都會區更嚴重，六都簽署的量占總數的72%，其中臺北市占36%，也凸顯了城鄉資源的差距。所以目前ACP納入健保給付的試辦計畫，涵蓋剛剛有提到的幾種，比如比較嚴重的病患，癌末、輕度失智或是公告重症、居家照護等四大類。我們想要請問，像這個部分，未來我們是不是要擴大至全民？因為剛剛也有委員說，你們過去有宣示2026年要擴大至全民，但是今天的書面報告又提到，尚需經深入的政策研議與詳細的預算規劃，待各界達成共識及實務運作更趨完備後，再行通盤檢討修正。我是覺得這個好像跟你們原本預期的有很大差距，所以想要請問部長，你們現在具體的規劃跟配套細節到底是什麼？遇到了什麼困難？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想如果能夠全民都來簽署，這是非常好的理想，我們也檢討簽署率低的因素，當然，諮商費用是一個重點。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，剛剛講過，費用嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：剛剛您一開始就幫忙宣導，真的很感謝，但我必須要再宣導一下，如果能夠簽好預立醫囑，其實是愛的表現，什麼叫愛的表現？就是愛你的家人，因為你的子女到最後不曉得爸爸到底要不要插管、要不要做什麼，很痛苦！如果能事先預立，就可以讓醫療人員按照爸爸媽媽的心願去做，所以預立決定其實是愛家人的表現，這不是金錢所能衡量的。當然，醫事司也做了很多規劃，健保署也一直在努力，不過這也要配合財務規劃。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，謝謝。我再進一步問，剛剛提到目前試辦大概有一百八十萬人、約五十四億，分階段實施，你們現在有沒有比較具體的實施方式？其實很重要的一點，這點剛剛你們都有提到，這是健康投資。如果做得好，長期而言對健保財務來說是更好的，對吧？對整個健保財務狀況應該是更好的。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["廖委員偉翔：你們可不可以給本席一份具體報告？你們目前只講到有一百八十萬人、五十四億經費，但這是短期經費，畢竟你們擔心一下子會衝擊很大。可是剛剛也講到，不可能一百八十萬人都使用，還包含宣導及觀念，因此，在全民適用上是不是應該儘速推動，才有可能達到健康投資，也才有可能讓健保財務有餘裕？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們一定循序漸進來做。就好像說……"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道你們會循序漸進，但是部長，我希望你們可以給本席具體的評估，包括目前的衝擊以及打算的目標為何？到底在幾年內可以達成？這一、兩年有一百八十萬人，明年達到多少？什麼時候全民適用？是不是可以在2026年達到你們的標準？或者做不到，要到2027年？我想部長可以在這裡做個宣示，也希望部長給我們具體的規劃，不要用還要再討論、還要再通盤檢討當理由拖延時間。我相信部長也想推動，部長要給自己一個目標去鞭策，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來，講到費用，也就是納入健保的部分。剛才提到有一個65歲的阿姨接受媒體訪問，他是國際旅遊領隊，即使退休了財務狀況應該還不錯，而且觀念也算比較開放。但他還是不懂，為什麼要花錢去選擇自己怎麼死？最後是聽到免費才去報名，這證明了你們要趕快達成目標。目前醫院採取團體諮商，所以現在就講到觀念問題，雖然可以降低人均成本，這也是一個調整方式，可是現行的團體諮商很多都是素昧平生的陌生人一起參加，整個氣氛有點像大型團購現場，對國人的觀念不免有所衝擊，畢竟事關生死，可能不像國外可以接受與陌生人一起諮商的形式，這部分是不是也有調整的空間？"],["劉司長越萍：謝謝委員指教，去年我們有團體諮商，之後也進行一些輔導作業，我們發現如果是家族、朋友一起的效果最好……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，沒錯。"],["劉司長越萍：就此，我們已經開始針對醫院的團體諮商輔導，也給一些建議，若這些具體的建議轉成文字，變成衛福部公告的建議或指引，在今年下半年才會逐步討論。不過，我們的輔導團隊已經有發現相關問題，以上。"],["廖委員偉翔：很好，這就是我要跟你們講的問題，你們要儘速推動，屆時也請將具體的檢討報告及詳細的文字內容提供給本席辦公室。"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來，目前全臺大概有兩百多家醫療機構有ACP服務，可是全臺有77%的鄉鎮（市）區沒有諮商據點，足見分布不均。今天在報告裡有提出要擴大ACP規模，卻沒有寫出具體措施是什麼！針對偏鄉地區，可不可以結合長照或銀髮關懷據點來開設行動諮商站？我想可以參考日本在宅醫療聯繫的模式與精神，由巡迴團隊提供服務，這也是一種推廣方式，是不是可以推行？"],["邱部長泰源：這都可以研議。"],["廖委員偉翔：研議要去做啊！"],["邱部長泰源：不僅要去做，最重要是要維護預立人當時簽ACP的品質，我們也希望能多利用社區的醫療團隊，並鼓勵社區醫療團隊接受一定的訓練。現在診所數比便利商店還多……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，針對我今天所提出的問題，希望你們儘速研議完之後能給本席一個報告，因為都是針對剛剛講的三大方向提出的困境與問題，所以我在這裡告訴部長，也請你們儘快評估與推動。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：接下來也是觀念問題。民眾對於病主存在三大誤解，有32%認為是安樂死，有28%的人擔心簽署後會被放棄治療，有19%認為違反宗教教義。此外，家屬介入決策的傳統文化還是很深，2022年高雄榮總的案例也顯示，有38%的AD簽署者遭親屬反對執行，這些是實務上你們要去克服的問題。另外，主要是現行法規部分，現行法第九條要求二等親家屬參與諮商，這是不是反而會造成家庭壓力？是否可以修法允許獨居者經社工評估後免除親屬同意？"],["劉司長越萍：我先補充一下，就剛剛委員所垂詢獨居者這部分，目前若獨居者自己簽切結書的話，其實醫院還是可以進行諮商，實務面就看到現在獨居長者已相對、逐步在增加當中，在實務面上已經做了相關處理。進一步講，關於善終，剛剛委員特別提到周圍親友，特別是家人阻止這件事，當初在立法時我們為什麼會希望家屬一起參與？因為透過家屬的參與，在最後做決定時才能比較容易尊重病人的自主，這是當初在設計時的考量。"],["廖委員偉翔：以結果論來說，就是我剛剛講的，費用、宣導跟觀念還是有很大的問題與精進空間，這部分就請你們去檢討。最後要跟你們講的一件事，也就是宣傳，很多的政策宣傳、宣導與衛教，說實在，不僅內容偏向生澀難懂，也很無趣，想達到好的效果其實滿難的。請問部長，如果某一個政令或衛教宣導，在你們臉書上要破千萬次瀏覽量，平均要花多少經費？可以抓一個數字嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我不知道，請委員指教。"],["廖委員偉翔：你抓不出數字，對不對？以你們過去的表現來看，才1.9萬次、3,208次、1.6萬次，其實都很少，所以你們應該要去想更好、更具創意的方式。我現在告訴你，南投有間醫院的小編打破了宣導的困難與內容無聊的刻板印象，讓衛教宣導影片有很好的效果，在半年內他的追蹤數增加了4.5萬，單月瀏覽次突破了數千萬，互動也破了一百多萬。你們剛剛可能不曉得狀況，你們在宣導經費上是非常高的，這點我們在審預算時都知道。但這個小編的薪水就是3萬元打死，甚至沒有額外花媒體採購費用，部長，這就是一個妥妥的人才！他一po出他薪水3萬打死的時候，一堆人馬上在下面留言要挖角他，足以印證這樣的人在業界一定很搶手。今天適逢五一勞動節，說這樣的薪水叫壓榨可能過於沉重，但現實面就是，你們在宣導上若只靠熱情的小編，是沒辦法留人太久的。所以是不是請部長去了解一下這個案子？然後也要真的下定決心，讓醫療體系裡面的行政人員、這些人才，應該要有更好的待遇，才不會白白流失人才，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定珍惜人才……"],["廖委員偉翔：要改善他們的待遇，這才是今天質詢最重要的意義，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：當然，一定。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員的質詢。","我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（11時9分）","繼續開會（11時19分）"],["主席（劉委員建國）：現在繼續開會。","接下來請林淑芬委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","莊瑞雄","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳培瑜","楊曜","陳瑩","涂權吉","陳菁徽"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；二、委員劉建國等\n16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利\n法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00007"}}},{"id":"160866","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160866","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc054531937b5c43c094de01e9c6ce952975144d4d67ecd09c12f620ca07494474b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:57:56 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你覺得"},{"start":142.366,"end":162.84,"text":"看他的航線吧看航線我們往下看台灣的航運能力我們前貨運的十二大航商台灣佔了三名我們的運力快了市佔率在全球快了一成所以這個船隊是不是規模很龐大很龐大嘛但是他在哪裡加油呢我可以賣個關子往下看"},{"start":163.895,"end":188.759,"text":"現在為了降低碳排應用而生的氫能產業你覺得在台灣他除了發電工業製造還有運輸哪一方面需求最迫切我們往下看我再給你看一下台灣要降低碳排所以我們的氫能未來要供應給發電供應給製造供應給運輸運輸又有陸海空你覺得哪一個占比最高哪個需求最迫切"},{"start":190.917,"end":215.82,"text":"這個都在未來吧 現在氫能沒有那麼大氫能沒有那麼大 是我們要降低碳排那你覺得現在世界各國都在研究氫能怎麼樣來降低碳排要看成本了 報告委員我想這件事情喔 替代的能源是這樣就是方法有很多但是就商業的考量來講我們還是要考慮那個成本是 除了看成本之外 成本會用什麼來做碳稅就是一種成本 我們往下看其實呢 在運輸的領域當中"},{"start":217.741,"end":246.198,"text":"陸海空啊現在對氫能需求最陰氣的是航運我們往下看喔IMO是國際海事組織它已經規定了為了降低溫室氣體排放在2028年開始如果你的船舶用有沒有用低碳燃料可以用課100美金到380美金的額外的碳稅所以部長你說對了嘛是不是價格出來了如果你不使用低碳燃料你就會被課碳稅嘛同意嘛齁所以你覺得航運是不是很迫切需要使用低碳燃料"},{"start":249.831,"end":274.317,"text":"所以低碳燃料目前對我們航運的衝擊是什麼長榮他去年買了24艘假存的雙燃料未來他會再訂11艘24000噸的LNG的雙燃料連萬海都要用生質燃油導入那剛剛講了航運就都看很遠一艘船訂下去要用二三十年雖然是未來的事情現在就開始做準備是不是應該要這樣做企業家是不是要這樣做"},{"start":275.444,"end":299.664,"text":"是嗎 好 往下看但是剛剛揭曉了 我們關谷的陽明海運呢它到哪裡去加低碳燃料 到韓國啊 您說的沒有錯輕對台灣來講 它是一個進口的 價格也比較貴所以我們的船隊 自家船隊要用的油 低碳燃料到別的國家去加台灣有沒有加住生質燃油的能力 署長有沒有"},{"start":301.107,"end":316.54,"text":"台灣可以生產生殖奶油有這個生產的能力但是目前我們像現在那個玉米玉米都可以來做生殖奶油但是目前有沒有供應給我們傳播用呢因為市場太小我們台灣這個市場"},{"start":319.042,"end":342.628,"text":"市場能不能講現在全世界的航運公司2028年要面對100到380美金對一個大的製造廠來講我講的不是工業製造我講的是船舶燃料往下看所以未來為了滿足IMO的溫體的排放所以台灣要思考有沒有可能幫這個船隊經過台灣海峽的船隊佔五分之一的世界航運量"},{"start":343.43,"end":351.911,"text":"我們國家的船隊佔十分之一的航運量這些船舶有沒有可能在台灣加注低碳燃料這是不是一個市場部長你認為這是不是一個市場"},{"start":354.031,"end":381.588,"text":"就我商業的看法啦就是通過台灣海峽來台灣加油的這個機率不高因為他要加低碳燃料嘛所以我的意思就是說其實我們高雄港來高雄港然後來轉運高雄港變成一個大型的轉運中心的時候那在這個地方加油這才有機會啦是的 沒有錯所以您說的沒有錯如果是在這邊有吞吐他跟新加坡的馬六甲海峽有吞吐的時候他會同時加注燃料"},{"start":382.108,"end":409.58,"text":"主要說的是說其實在我們思考輕能產業的時候不要只有經濟部思考說用來替代我們的LNG的火力發電的燃料要思考到說舉例講啦有人說不要為了喝一杯牛奶去養一頭牛對不對但是如果你家有個小牧場你可以跟大牧場批很多原乳來加工成鮮乳賣給全社區的人所以台灣有沒有綠能 有嘛"},{"start":410.472,"end":433.024,"text":"有沒有風電 有嘛 有沒有光電 有嘛 但是錢價就不夠啊 這些電呢直接供應電力供應都來不及了有沒有可能去煉傳播燃料 不可能但是我們如果有這個技術 我們可以進國外類似原料的氫原料煉製成傳播要用的低碳多元燃料 你覺得有沒有可能這樣做"},{"start":434.233,"end":460.686,"text":"這都有可能啦商業模式都可以發展是的所以就是因為是未來的模式所以拜託您發展往下看最後結論因為我國的港區跟我國的船隊規模有提供多元低碳燃料家族的業務所以請經濟部研究一下國營事業包括台灣中油有沒有帶動民間產業煉製及供應港區多元低碳燃料的可能性可不可以去請能源署評估一下是我們可以評估那我當然我昨天也問過交通部長了"},{"start":461.306,"end":488.72,"text":"未來如果要對我們的港區的船舶提供多元低碳燃料也要專用的管路跟儲槽這個就是交通部的事情了所以最後我要請經濟部還有能源署跟台電和中油本席將會召開公聽會我會請交通部跟經濟部共同來研究氫能產業除了在台灣除了經濟部取代陸運的汽車用汽油氫能代替汽油用這個"},{"start":490.388,"end":502.894,"text":"輕能代替LNG的發電之外有沒有可能鎖定船舶燃料這個檜面來把台灣打造成一個類似新加坡為我們國際航運的船舶加注多元低碳燃料的可能性"},{"start":503.638,"end":525.858,"text":"署長你要不要補充一下我們來研究啦我要跟委員報告所有的事情其實最後還是成本來做決定是的所以就是碳定價的問題如果說今天我們經濟部有辦法評估2030或2035年我們可以提供一個什麼樣的低碳燃料的定價那交通部就會告訴你"},{"start":526.628,"end":542.811,"text":"這樣的定價的低碳燃料我的船舶需要多少的量你就可以去規劃產生這樣的低碳燃料的一個限制規模交通部也可以去規劃供應這樣的低碳燃料給船舶的一個港部設施這樣的一個建議你會不會去評估我們來評估啦好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":598,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時58分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長和官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士和先生。有請經濟部郭部長和能源署的李署長。"],["主席：郭部長、李署長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、署長好。我們來看第一頁，部長，您是一個企業家，來自商業界，商業上解決自己的問題和解決別人的問題最大的差別在哪裡？你直覺的反應，在商業上，你還在想？我們直接看看這個答案對不對，你要給我點評一下，這個答案就是解決自己的問題要花錢、解決別人的問題可以賺錢，您同意嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那這個誰很會做？新加坡跟臺灣都很會，對不對？新加坡跟臺灣都不產石油，結果我們都有很大規模的石化業，您覺得新加坡跟臺灣比起來誰的規模比較大？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我不清楚，但是署長說新加坡比較大。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，新加坡，這很特別嘛，那它現在供應給誰呢？我們來看一下，新加坡是世界三大煉油中心之一，新加坡除了金融業跟觀光業之外，它的航運業幫它賺最多錢，因為它周邊有產油的馬來西亞跟印尼，它透過填海造陸設置大量的煉油廠，最重要是什麼？麻六甲海峽，世界上所有的油輪都要從那邊經過，是不是這樣？","那往下看。新加坡的燃料，它是供應給船舶用，它的石化業，那你覺得臺灣的石化業是用來做什麼的？"],["郭部長智輝：做下游產品。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，而且我們不是自己用，我們還出口對不對？新加坡自己的船隊，它在全世界只有占一點點、1.3%，它煉那麼多的油都是給路過的船舶使用，賺人家的錢。臺灣的石化業進口那麼多的原油，做出來的石化材料也不是自己用而已，賣給別人也是賺別人的錢，您同意嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以新加坡及臺灣都有航運船隊，剛剛我說了嘛！新加坡的船隊當然在自己那邊加油，臺灣的船隊你覺得會在哪裡加油？"],["郭部長智輝：看它的航線吧！"],["鍾委員佳濱：臺灣的航運能力，貨運的12大航商臺灣占了3名，我們的運力占全球快一成的市占率，所以船隊是不是規模很龐大？很龐大嘛！但是它在哪裡加油呢？我賣個關子，往下看，現在為了降低碳排應運而生的氫能產業，你覺得在臺灣其應用除了發電及工業製造外還有運輸，哪一方面需求最迫切？我再給你看一下，臺灣要降低碳排，所以我們的氫能未來要供應給發電、製造及運輸，其中運輸又有陸、海、空，你覺得哪一個占比最高？哪個需求最迫切？"],["郭部長智輝：這個都在未來，現在氫能沒有那麼大的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我們要降低碳排，那你覺得現在世界各國都在研究氫能怎麼樣來降低碳排。"],["郭部長智輝：要看成本，報告委員，我想這些替代的能源是這樣，就是方法有很多，但是就商業的考量來講，我們還是要考慮成本。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，除了看成本之外，成本會用什麼來做？碳稅就是一種成本，其實在運輸的領域當中，陸、海、空現在對氫能需求最殷切的是航運，IMO是國際海事組織，它已經規定為了降低溫室氣體排放，在2028年開始，如果船舶用油沒有用低碳燃料，可以課100美金到380美金的額外碳稅，所以部長你說對了，是不是價格出來了？如果你不使用低碳燃料就會被課碳稅，同意嘛！所以你覺得航運是不是很迫切需要使用低碳燃料？"],["郭部長智輝：是，當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以低碳燃料目前對航運業的衝擊是什麼？長榮去年買了24艘甲醇雙燃料貨櫃輪，未來還會再訂11艘2萬4,000噸LNG雙燃料貨櫃輪，連萬海都要導入使用生質燃油，剛剛講了，航運界都看很遠，一艘船訂下去要用二、三十年，雖然是未來的事情，現在就開始做準備，是不是應該要這樣做？企業家是不是要這樣做？是嘛！但是剛剛揭曉了，我們官股的陽明海運到哪裡去加低碳燃料？到韓國啊！您說得沒有錯，氫對臺灣來講，它是進口的，價格也比較貴，所以我們自家船隊要用的油，低碳燃料要到別的國家去加，臺灣有沒有加注生質燃油的能力？署長，有沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：臺灣可以生產生質燃油。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有這個生產的能力，好，但是目前……"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在像玉米都可以來做生質燃油。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，但是目前有沒有供應給我們船舶用呢？還沒有嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：臺灣的市場太小，我們臺灣這個市場……"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，我會嚇一跳！市場怎麼會太小？現在全世界的航運公司2028年要面對100到380美金……"],["郭部長智輝：對一個大的製造廠來講……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我講的不是工業製造，我講的是船舶燃料，所以未來為了滿足IMO溫體排放，所以臺灣要思考有沒有可能幫經過臺灣海峽的船隊，占五分之一的世界航運量，我們國家的船隊占十分之一的航運量，這些船舶有沒有可能在臺灣加注低碳燃料，這是不是一個市場？部長，你認為這是不是一個市場？"],["郭部長智輝：就我商業的看法，通過臺灣海峽來臺灣加油的機率不高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為它要加低碳燃料嘛！臺灣目前沒有能力生產。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我的意思就是說，其實我們高雄港，來高雄港轉運，當高雄港變成一個大型的轉運中心的時候，在這個地方加油至少還有機會啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，沒有錯！所以您說的沒有錯，如果是在這邊有吞吐，它跟新加坡的麻六甲一樣有吞吐的時候，它會同時加注燃料。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我要說的是，其實在我們思考氫能產業的時候，不要只有經濟部思考用來替代LNG的火力發電燃料，舉例講，有人說不要為了喝一杯牛奶去養一頭牛，對不對？但是如果你家有個小牧場，你可以跟大牧場批很多原乳來加工成鮮乳賣給全社區的人，所以臺灣有沒有綠能？有嘛！有沒有風電？有嘛！有沒有光電？有嘛！但是生吃就不夠了，這些電直接供應電力都來不及了，有沒有可能去煉船舶燃料？不可能！但是我們如果有這個技術，我們可以進國外類似原料的氫原料煉製成船舶要用的多元低碳燃料，你覺得有沒有可能這樣做？"],["郭部長智輝：這都有可能，商業模式都可以發展。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以就是因為是未來的模式，所以要拜託您發展。","最後結論，因為我國港區跟我國船隊規模，而能提供多元低碳燃料加注業務，所以請經濟部研究國營事業，包括台灣中油有沒有帶動民間產業煉製及供應港區多元低碳燃料的可能性，可不可以請能源署評估一下？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們可以評估。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然我昨天也問過交通部長了，未來如果要對我們港區的船舶提供多元低碳燃料，也要有專用的管路跟儲槽，這就是交通部的事情了。所以最後我要請經濟部還有能源署與台電、中油參與本席近期將召開之公聽會，我會請交通部跟經濟部共同研究氫能產業，除了在臺灣、除了經濟部，取代陸運汽車用的汽油，而能用氫能代替汽油、代替LNG的發電之外，有沒有可能鎖定船舶燃料這塊面向，來把臺灣打造成一個類似新加坡為國際航運的船舶加注多元低碳燃料的可能性。署長，你要不要再補充一下？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們來研究，我要跟委員報告，所有的事情其實最後還是成本來做決定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以就是碳定價的問題。如果今天經濟部有辦法評估2030或2035年我們可以提供一個什麼樣的低碳燃料定價，那交通部就會告訴你，這樣定價的低碳燃料船舶需要多少的量，你就可以去規劃產生這樣的低碳燃料的建置規模，交通部也可以去規劃供應這樣的低碳燃料給船舶的港埠設施，這樣的建議你會不會去評估？"],["郭部長智輝：我們來評估。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請楊瓊瓔委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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做到高雄 還有台灣大學 還有東京大學 還有哲學立法院我最主要是勇於認識 為人誠懇所以我不要跟他說是財是所 意思是我給你按讚這樣就對了 但是我的問題就是你下去沒有特色"},{"start":59.501,"end":71.106,"text":"我昨天練書練到兩點因為針對今天委員的垂行重點都是我們國家的重要方向我必須要來拜讀我給你推薦一本很好讀的 學問有夠讚叫做核廢料蘭嶼儲存場設置真相調查報告書一本寫的"},{"start":82.931,"end":92.987,"text":"這差不多六十三頁調查報告書六十三頁然後附件加一加一共是七百四十六頁我一禮拜齁我一禮拜都把它拆掉了我從第一頁到最後一頁都把它拆掉了連附件我都看連我辦公室都看"},{"start":98.135,"end":111.308,"text":"那我今天本席要來跟你就教的就是說啊倒也不是醫院的硬體的一個建設啦是在講說蘭嶼的醫療這個嚴重的不足這應該柏中你也應該都知道啦我來跟你講一個故事啦就是說"},{"start":115.339,"end":119.222,"text":"民國60年 1971年的時候核一廠動工那時候動工之後 叫你說你就有一些核廢料會造出來所以那個時候就評估五種核廢料儲存方式第一款叫做"},{"start":131.451,"end":154.208,"text":"廢礦坑 後來就去找 找到金瓜石但是呢 礦坑太潮濕 居民會使用礦坑的水源所以打岔就沒用第二種就是舊日均地下屯殯地 台中結果呢 那個深度 地面大概二十公尺而已那坑道狹窄 汽車也沒有在裡面運作 所以又打岔"},{"start":155.129,"end":168.672,"text":"第三個就新竹 想要放大清水下來啊 但是交通不方便 又打岔第四個呢 東沙島 是要投海 海拋還是啦 離菲律賓120公里而已 走那邊就趕走啦走國際 國際 欸我你還笑 我要跟你講這個啊 但是喔 來了 重點來了 設在離島 蘭嶼跟澎湖等14個方案"},{"start":181.487,"end":186.151,"text":"我可以說的是,沒有啦,蘭嶼有夠衰啦因為它離本島最近,還有港口還有紅酒,最主要成本最低所以它就中獎了,蘭嶼就中獎了所以我要跟部長說明的就是說在蘭嶼如果蓋一間便宜,那不是叫做選項啦"},{"start":202.947,"end":207.053,"text":"那叫做政府的責任1971年到現在 你看這麼久時間過了2018年 2016年 我看蔡總統 這個以前很聽你的"},{"start":219.864,"end":226.348,"text":"跟蘭嶼人道歉2018年核廢料蘭嶼儲存場的設置真相調查報告書就是我建議的一本書出爐同年也提供給住在蘭嶼的居民一些健檢當然政府階段也有補充一些我給你看下一頁這歷史研究給你看一下就是在2019年的時候"},{"start":245.698,"end":250.945,"text":"原民會那時候就照一本書所以我是怎麼叫部長你要去看現在跟你說的都不用說什麼對一個總統對一個總統都官方的文件那時候就說要不然來建議提升叫做分院"},{"start":259.522,"end":262.585,"text":"那部立台東區分院就對了 就是說這裡要設一個病院再來就開始台東的衛生局就開始去協調要怎麼用地然後呢 再來2022年就開始說 原民會跟台東縣政府來協調原民保留地要怎麼整修 連監察院後來也去了"},{"start":279.66,"end":294.653,"text":"我這裡有一張 監察院去做什麼 你知道嗎監察院調查主管機關就蘭嶼達沃族人權益維護的重大建設政策規劃跟執行是否投資的時候去履刊啦 履刊要做什麼 你知道嗎醫院設置的問題啊從頭到尾都在講說蘭嶼就是要設醫院啦這都要收錢 你知道嗎 我想要叫石崇亮署長你起來 董事長你就是署長嘛"},{"start":308.065,"end":315.428,"text":"蘭嶼就是要設分院嘛這有什麼好講的有什麼好爭辯的我現在要講的就是說以前國民黨夭壽國民黨以前真的很夭壽要放十萬趟"},{"start":330.649,"end":334.33,"text":"我2011年我背小英 蔡英文總統去蘭嶼啦我去看到的現場慘不忍睹啦以前有人騙說要去罐頭工廠說去下去後 齁 青年就就業結果有去罐頭工廠嗎 有大咖的罐頭 55高輪的 都放合會了不對 你可能不記得齁"},{"start":358.462,"end":371.908,"text":"我就說你要去因為你叫做衛福部部長我覺得你要去要去看一下說當年的政府怎麼去讀讀不然莫名其妙2018年蔡英文不會去道歉嘛不是啦 做總統後面道歉的就是說當初要去這個蘭嶼要放這個核廢料儲存場沒有蘭嶼的人知道 人家騙那產生的是什麼"},{"start":387.025,"end":401.155,"text":"你如果說要顧老百姓的健康就很簡單啊藍瑜那個核肺療藏你給他刷照啊可不可能 不可能啊十萬趟要刷一堆第二天就是 啊沒有人刷照啊可不可能 啊也不可能啊兩種都不可能那怎麼辦那這政府的責任就來囉你來人顧健康嘛"},{"start":411.158,"end":417.083,"text":"我就不管說什麼蔡英文有沒有承諾什麼賴清德總統有沒有承諾 兩件事政府就是該做不你合理吧 你特赤人嘛那個石中梁署長我這樣講合理吧合理喔 你也頂頭啊 欸 趙復師合理喔 你們都說合理喔你們就互相在推啦那些小外星人喔 叫做你趙復師的啦"},{"start":435.589,"end":442.832,"text":"我們如果去賓夷之後,他有位的啦,他們就撒來撒去啦所以我具體要求啦,保證,盡量訂案啦盡量齁,你們整個新建計劃盡量出來,匡列預算啦稍微對不起,王委員,我不是我結東,我要講這個歷史這件事情要講得清楚你譬如說齁,我講我們屏東就好了,我們過去屏東,好東西"},{"start":462.472,"end":475.359,"text":"蔡英文都要 總統都要屏東 蘇貞昌院長也要屏東我覺得各個縣市去照顧 全國都照顧 合理你說賴總統現在在說健康台灣對不對偏鄉醫療你要提升啊我記錄給你聽啦我們屏東隆總 屏東隆總喔 開九十四億去二岸齁屏東部立醫院 開三十六億"},{"start":489.192,"end":492.775,"text":"去好了嘛 現在在去嘛屏東旅遊醫院去電館八樓 第二席一樓蘇貞昌院長怎麼說 你知不知道一室大會 要人給人 要錢給錢經費無上限我沒跟你說 我沒說 你看Google你去Google 蘇貞昌經費無上限台東勒"},{"start":513.12,"end":516.341,"text":"過去政府的不當的政策 荼毒整個蘭嶼我們不用騎個便宜的人所以我現在不是在說 蓋醫院是不是選項 不是我講的是 在蘭嶼蓋醫院是叫做責任而且無可推卸的一個責任啊你只能在那裡討論在那裡討論來討論去 上來上去快去啦"},{"start":538.432,"end":547.196,"text":"醫護會不是這樣說?你不是要站起來幫我扯一下而已嗎?你不是要站起來幫我倒倒的嗎?據理承諾的嗎?醫護會要去報告,報告現在的進度啦沒有沒有,我又不要提進度這叫責任我請部長據理承諾"},{"start":554.434,"end":583.11,"text":"好,我想我們醫護會因為當時是土地的問題,也沒有三來三去因為從108年其實在部內裡面就一直討論醫院的一個興建的一個計畫去評估然後土地當時是有問題的譬如說原來的土地,那裡說不可以,那是森林所在的地我們就往外面去別的地方,大量管政部在找當然現在有些地方看起來已經克服的差不多"},{"start":583.45,"end":588.874,"text":"都扣有差不多沒問題的嘛我們現在就是今天要提一個醫院的新鮮的計畫來提公鮮計畫在這當中我們也一直在補充補充應該有的量能啦今年創的開備啦"},{"start":600.201,"end":620.659,"text":"新建計畫計畫書幾個月內因為現在那個我們15筆土地裡面上面就是有2筆是被佔用的啦另外這些土地其實是還需要我不跟你 佔用那是什麼去排除 我說你的新建計畫我現在跟你說新建計畫 我跟你說你不給他具體答案 待會蒼蠅給你問得越嚴重 我不給你騙"},{"start":625.887,"end":632.871,"text":"因為我們還是需要跟地方在這邊需要它的量比如說它的衛生索你告訴我 時間要當時我不敢 藍瑜在那裡 我不敢提陳映萌但是我自己做 我對台東的關心可以嘛你屏東旅遊醫院 人家這樣開始去去白樓 怕卡住去白樓 三年六個月"},{"start":653.171,"end":659.814,"text":"去八樓 燈館八樓 地下一樓 開一個515你這裡要去多大 要三樓嗎三樓而已耶屏東旅遊院是137個床位耶你這裡要幾個床位不會超過40個吧好 那個細節是不是我簡單問你嘛 我要突顯出來嘛我要突顯出來嘛 你這裡幾個床位37吧 30幾吧"},{"start":681.598,"end":692.865,"text":"你的三十幾屏東旅遊醫院137個蓋地上八樓地下一樓三年半五年五年你這個比較有貴貴賺錢啦具體承諾不定好不好今年新建計劃提出來好好好可以喔你自己說的喔待會請問你幾位要出來我來講謝謝好謝謝莊瑞雄委員的質詢接下來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":396,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時43分）謝謝召委。面對事實就換我來發言了！本席請衛福部邱部長、照護司副司長，還有石崇良署長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長好。部長，這兩天我都在誇獎你，媒體來問我對衛福部部長的看法，我說部長有學術的經驗，當到教授，還有臺灣大學、東京大學的學歷，還當過立法委員，最主要的是勇於任事、為人誠懇，所以我後面提到這是適才適所，給你按讚，這樣就對了！"],["邱部長泰源：繼續努力！"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是我要問你，你多久沒讀書了？"],["邱部長泰源：我昨天念書念到兩點，因為今天委員的垂詢重點都是我們國家的重要方向，必須要來拜讀。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我給你推薦一本很好讀、很棒的書，叫做「核廢料蘭嶼貯存場設置真相調查報告書」，差不多是63頁的調查報告書，然後附件加一加一共是746頁，我一個禮拜就都把它都讀完了，從第1頁到最後一頁，連附件我都看了，連我辦公室也都看了。今天本席要跟你就教的，倒不是醫院的硬體建設，而是蘭嶼的醫療嚴重不足，部長應該都知道啦！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我來跟你說一個故事，民國60年、1971年的時候核一廠動工，在動工之後照理說就會有一些核廢料出來，所以那個時候就評估了5種核廢料貯存方式，第一種叫做廢礦坑，後來就找到金瓜石那個地方，但是礦坑太潮溼，居民會使用礦坑的水源，所以就打「X」、就沒採用；第二種是舊日軍地下屯兵地──臺中，結果那個深度距地面大概20公尺而已，且坑道狹窄，起重車也沒辦法在裡面運作，所以又打「X」；第三個是新竹，想要放在深山裡面，但是交通不方便，又打「X」；第四個是東沙島，要投海、海拋，但是距菲律賓120公里而已，怕被人家罵，怕有國際糾紛，你還在笑！我跟你說的是真的！第五個，重點來了，設在離島──蘭嶼跟澎湖等共14個方案，我跟你說這些是因為後來蘭嶼有夠倒楣的，由於它離本島最近、有港口、人口少，最主要的是成本最低，所以蘭嶼就中獎了。","我要跟部長說明的是，如果在蘭嶼蓋一間醫院，那不叫做選項，那叫做政府的責任，從1971年到現在，經過這麼久的時間，2016年，以前也很疼你的蔡總統，她有去向蘭嶼人道歉；2018年，核廢料蘭嶼貯存場設置真相調查報告書出爐，就是我建議的這本書，同年也提供住在蘭嶼的居民進行一些健檢，隔年政府多少也補償了一些，我把歷史沿革讓部長看一下；2019年的時候，原民會就依據這本報告書……為什麼我叫部長去看這本書？因為現在跟你說的，都不用說這是哪一個總統任內提出的，這都是官方的文件，那時候有建議予以提升，要在蘭嶼設一個部立臺東分院，也就是要在這裡設一個醫院，再來臺東衛生局就開始協調用地的問題；然後，2022年原民會與臺東縣政府開始協調原民保留地要怎麼徵收，連監察院後來也去了，你知不知道監察院去了之後寫什麼，監察院調查主管機關就蘭嶼達悟族權益維護之重大建設政策規劃及執行是否妥適去履勘，履勘做什麼，你知道嗎？醫院設址的問題，從頭到尾都在講蘭嶼就是要設醫院，所以大家不要再爭辯。我為什麼要叫石崇良署長上來？你當時是處長，幸好你人還在，這整件事情你都知道，對不對？蘭嶼就是要設分院，這有什麼好講的，有什麼好爭辯的？所以我現在要講的就是，以前國民黨缺德，國民黨以前真的很缺德，把10萬桶放在那裡。","我2011年陪蔡英文總統去蘭嶼的時候，我看到現場慘不忍睹，以前騙人家要蓋罐頭工廠，蓋了之後可以幫助青年就業，結果有蓋罐頭工廠嗎？有，大桶的罐頭、55加侖的，都是放核廢料。部長，你可能沒去過。"],["邱部長泰源：不曾。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長，你要去，因為你叫衛福部部長，我覺得你要去，要去看一下當年的政府怎麼荼毒，不然莫名其妙2018年蔡英文不會去道歉，那有當總統亂道歉的，就是因為當初要在蘭嶼要蓋核廢料貯存場，沒有讓蘭嶼人知道，騙人，產生的結果是什麼？如果要照顧老百姓的健康很簡單，你就把蘭嶼的核廢料貯存場移走，可不可能？不可能啊！10萬桶要移去哪裡？第二個就是不然把人移走，可不可能？也不可能啊！兩種都不可能，怎麼辦？政府的責任就來了，你就要照顧人家的健康，不管蔡英文有沒有承諾、賴清德總統有沒有承諾，兩件事政府就是該做，部長，合理吧？你是讀書人。石崇良署長，我這樣講合理吧？"],["石署長崇良：合理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你也點頭了，照護司，合理吧？你們都說合理，可是你們卻互相在推，如果要設衛生所是照護司的事；如果蓋了醫院之後就是醫福會的事，你們就推來推去，所以我具體要求，部長，趕快把它定案，整個興建計畫趕快提出來，匡列預算。召委，對不起！不是我激動，這個歷史真的要說清楚，譬如，以屏東來講就好，幸好蔡英文總統剛好屏東人，蘇貞昌院長也是屏東人，我覺得各個縣市都應該去照顧、全國都照顧，合理，賴總統現在說健康台灣，偏鄉醫療要提升。我舉例給你聽，屏東榮總花了94億，已經蓋好了；屏東部立醫院花了36億，現在在蓋；屏東旅遊醫院要蓋上面8樓，地下室1樓，蘇貞昌院長怎麼說的，你知道嗎？他說一次到位，要人給人、要錢給錢，經費無上限。我沒有隨便亂講，你可以google「蘇貞昌經費無上限」，那臺東呢？過去政府的不當政策荼毒整個蘭嶼，我們不用蓋一個醫院給人家嗎？所以我現在不是跟你說蓋醫院是不是選項，不是！我講的是在蘭嶼蓋醫院叫做責任，而且是無可推卸的責任，但是你們只有在那邊討論來討論去、推來推去，趕快蓋！醫福會，不是這樣說的嗎？不然你只是上來對我笑一下而已，你不是要上來跟我拍桌子具體承諾的嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：醫福會要上來報告現在的進度。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我沒有要聽進度，這叫責任，我請部長具體承諾。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想醫福會……當時是土地的問題，也沒有推來推去，其實從108年部內就一直在討論醫院的興建計畫，評估之後，土地當時是有問題的，譬如，原來的土地不能蓋，因為那裡是神靈的所在地，所以我們就換去別的地方，臺東縣政府也有在找地，現在有一個地方看起來已經克服得差不多。"],["莊委員瑞雄：都克服得差不多，沒問題了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們現在要趕快提一個醫院興建的公建計畫，在這當中我們也一直在補充應該有的量能。"],["莊委員瑞雄：今年興建計畫有辦法完成嗎？"],["林執行長慶豐：跟委員報告，因為現在我們的15筆土地裡面，有2筆是被占用的，另外，這些土地其實還需要……"],["莊委員瑞雄：No、No、No，我不問你占用怎麼去排除，我是在問你的興建計畫，我現在在跟你說興建計畫，你不給我具體答復，等一下陳瑩會問得更嚴重，我沒有騙你。"],["林執行長慶豐：因為我們還是需要跟地方溝通，我還是需要它的量，比如它的衛生所。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你跟我講一個時間，蘭嶼那邊我不敢替陳瑩問，但是至少我替臺東關心，可以吧？"],["林執行長慶豐：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：屏東旅遊醫院一開始蓋的時候，蓋8樓包含拆除是3年6個月，上面8樓、地下1樓花5億5，你現在要蓋多大，不會超過3樓吧？"],["邱部長泰源：3樓。"],["莊委員瑞雄：3樓而已，屏東旅遊醫院是137個床位，你現在要幾個床位？不會超過40個吧？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會評估民眾的需求。"],["主席（王委員育敏代）：那個細節是不是你們再討論……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我簡單問你嘛，我要凸顯出來……"],["主席：時間的關係。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你現在要幾個床位？37吧？三十幾吧？屏東旅遊醫院137個床位，蓋地上8樓、地下1樓耗時三年半、花費5億5而已，你這裡需要花多少錢？部長，你具體承諾今年提出興建計畫，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以喔？這是你自己說的喔！等一下陳瑩會問你幾月要提出來。"],["主席：謝謝莊瑞雄委員的質詢，謝謝。","接下來我們請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","莊瑞雄","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳培瑜","楊曜","陳瑩","涂權吉","陳菁徽"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；二、委員劉建國等\n16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利\n法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00007"}}},{"id":"160864","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160864","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc0336c3675d66fbd964de01e9c6ce952975d77c67688655a42617c360b5c5c43e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:47:23 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謝謝主席 請郭部長先請教一下 主席總署有公布了今年第一季的GDP的成長率5.37當然大家對這個數字上也有很多不同的解讀部長怎麼看這樣的一個數字"},{"start":31.408,"end":54.338,"text":"這個我想這個本來就是大家預期這個川普總統這個上來以後可能會對關稅有一些要求所以大家可能在原來的這個比較低關稅的時候趕快出貨美國的buyer也會有這種想法所以這造成我們大概所以這個數字上第一季會有這樣的一個現象"},{"start":56.079,"end":84.278,"text":"對 但全年度的部分應該還是努力在以保三為目標啦我們現在大概看喔第二季大概也會有比較高的這個部分啦那第三季以後就不知道了就真正的這個關稅落零以後要看談判最後的結果啦對對對但是如果以目前的狀態我們應該還是努力維持在三以上嘛我們希望是這樣目前的這個現在四月嘛四月結束了嘛今天五月一號我想四月份大概也都是三以上"},{"start":84.758,"end":109.892,"text":"都是這樣以上 對那如果加入政府的投入4100億的特別預算的話這個我想這個機會應該是相當的有機會的我們希望說今年還是能夠保持原來這個估計的這個這樣的一個部分去努力但是真正的這個最後談判的結果會造成什麼樣的影響現在目前還是這個很難去部長那預定談判時候什麼會出來什麼時候會出來預定"},{"start":111.713,"end":135.448,"text":"如果按照進度來講就是說第一批的這個75國應該都會在7月前談了一個大致啦因為他也不可能每一個國家都跟你談嘛那他大概是全面的幾個標竿的國家先談嘛談完以後後面就比照辦理我看川普應該也很急啦也希望盡快的談底定因為看到內部的"},{"start":135.848,"end":158.616,"text":"他太久的話大概對他的這個內部的影響也很大啦就看他美國今年第一季也是不好嘛對對所以談太久了恐怕對他也有相當大的一個壓力所以我想這個應該會盡快來談完那我也請教一下因為我們的製造業的景氣其實2月3月也有了變動其實有段時間像2月幾乎爬到的是這個"},{"start":161.118,"end":175.188,"text":"黃紅燈其實相當不錯但是到了3月降到了黃藍燈這個當然我認為當然跟川普這些都有相關的一些連動部長怎麼看是確實台灣的這個經濟受到美國的美國的這個關稅的影響確實是非常的大"},{"start":176.224,"end":195.628,"text":"所以這個燈號的部分也會受到景氣上的影響因為這個是所謂外部來的外部環境的變異所以我想這個是我們都會高度的關注這樣的變異未來的發展會造成什麼樣的現象我們期盼在跟美國的談判有一些好的結果之後對我們的景氣對我們的經濟成長力都有好的一些幫助跟影響"},{"start":198.849,"end":210.859,"text":"那再請教一下今天好像有人到經濟部去甚至有立委去那批評螃蟹騙局部長怎麼看?是這樣嗎?這個我早上一大早就在這裡沒有進經濟部沒有看到這個現象那這個包圍經濟部啊這個這樣的一個活動如果是合法的"},{"start":228.24,"end":248.723,"text":"我們都尊重所有的這個國人的這個合法的行動如果是不合法的我們就要檢討為什麼他會採取不合法的這個行動那是不是龐氏騙局我對這個沒有研究那我問一下他裡面講的是他認為政府的現在能源政策是錯誤的部長認同這樣的看法嗎"},{"start":250.827,"end":275.529,"text":"這個就是我一直在講啦所謂正確或者錯誤是用什麼時間點來回顧那個情境啦不能講說你不喜歡的你就講他是錯誤啦那每一個時期都有那個時期的一些決策啦當然你現在來看我是不是想請教他說那你對流辮子清朝流辮子這件事情你認為是正確或者錯誤"},{"start":276.778,"end":292.537,"text":"是不是所以我們不能夠用現在來評論過去的這個這個是對的或者錯的不過我還是要強調在當下這樣的狀況下的時候非核家園還是入法的還是在朝野的一個共識下的所以政府當然依照相關的法令必須來執行嘛對不對"},{"start":295.379,"end":321.168,"text":"這個包括核能的部分核廢料處理也沒有達成共識嘛很多的那甚至於燃煤的部分大家也覺得燃煤空污要改善所以燃煤很多的很多縣市也都希望不要所以發展綠能這個方向是國家的趨勢也是正確的方向嘛所以我覺得不能夠把這些東西全部倒到最後來全部用簡單的一句說你現在是一個錯誤的能源政策我看不出來講那些錯誤能源政策你的能源政策是什麼"},{"start":322.048,"end":344.977,"text":"非核加鹽是一個國家的基因這也是朝野的共識然後核廢料無法處理確實也是個事實然後核能安全怎麼樣國人安心確實目前沒辦法提出一個所以在當下這個階段這個就是目前的狀態那發展綠電也是目前的整個國家的政策也是世界各國的政策啊所以我看不懂這樣的批評跟這樣的評斷的時候你是用什麼樣的利潤基礎來談的"},{"start":346.557,"end":367.824,"text":"每個人就像每個人吃東西一樣有他的口味一樣啦那要講出一番的那個就像講的這個黑的講久了不會變成白的啦那我也擔心的是這樣子不斷的去攻擊不斷的去攻擊能源政治好像就變成國家能源政治錯誤的那也請提出來那你具體可行能源政治是什麼這個我們會報告委員 這個部分我們一定"},{"start":367.824,"end":388.462,"text":"一定會澄清啦我非常擔心三人成虎講了一百遍有可能講到後來就變成好像就是三人成虎嘛我想成語故事上面的三人成虎很擔心這樣子台灣講台灣獨裁講一百遍好像台灣真的變成獨裁的一樣就是我覺得這個是一個很錯誤的同樣的一直講好像是能源政策好像"},{"start":389.803,"end":407.053,"text":"圖利什麼什麼綠電圖利什麼什麼好像講久了講到後來變成好像是真的一樣全世界都在發展綠電如果哪邊有違法就抓出來嘛我們認為就是大家依照法令的規定你認為違法就去提告我們就是按照這個法的規範下去處理嘛"},{"start":408.113,"end":434.632,"text":"講一百遍有可能就變成讓大家模糊掉了啦所以我這個希望還是能源部要不斷的大力的去說明成績包括台電這幾年我們其實努力下空汙大幅的改善這也是很多人重視我很重視的啦從以前的時候我記得我90年代我一直盯著空汙的數字因為發展綠電因為我們減少了這個燃煤所以我們的這個空汙大幅的改善這對於南部對中部都很大很大的幫助"},{"start":435.012,"end":454.351,"text":"這些絕對都是貢獻所以我覺得這些東西應該要去正面給予肯定那也有很多人不斷地在造謠說台電是因為非核政策而導致虧損部長要不要再澄清一次我們一定會再次澄清是因為核能的這個能源政策而造成台電的虧損的嗎"},{"start":455.552,"end":473.837,"text":"完全不是啦我想這個裡面在這個邏輯上面有需要再導正的部分這個要持續的澄清因為核能最多的時候大概占台灣的發電大概10%這個10%到現在剩下3%你說3%我現在拿掉然後就會多大的影響這個我想這個3%會影響97%多少我真的就是無法想像"},{"start":485.06,"end":504.714,"text":"怎麼會用這樣來虧損部長要大力的不斷的去澄清好不好虧損的問題不是這個造成虧損虧損是因為我們過去的買的這個原料比較貴在因為戰爭的時候買的不是只有台灣買比較貴日本也貴這個韓國也貴這個我們鄰近的國家他們都買很貴而且他們的電價事實上"},{"start":510.959,"end":536.521,"text":"都比我們貴對所以這才是根本的原因嘛你買進來的價格變貴了那但是我們又不讓台電漲價我們政治上希望不要漲價所以導致台電承受了這些嘛齁那我接下來問了接下來我們也提出特別預算了齁在地方講的時候很多人都講說希望支持台電齁不管是立委或者地方的民代甚至很多企業都希望支持台電我們現在又再次提出來一千億的一個嗯撥補的部分部長"},{"start":537.662,"end":554.38,"text":"那如果最後一樣沒有在野黨或者在野黨的支持一樣沒辦法在立法院得到這個一千億的撥補的話會不會影響到接下來這個我們的電價的調漲的壓力報告委員我想電價調漲還是由電價審議委員會他們做決定啦"},{"start":558.644,"end":575.452,"text":"但會參考這個目前的這個狀況如果台電能夠忍受多久的財務的負債比已經達到九成了如果我們要馬兒不吃草又要馬兒好這個其實是有困難的所以我希望是"},{"start":576.292,"end":596.066,"text":"台電要穩健的經營如果是因為這樣而造成的那當然國家財政這幾年經濟成長力不錯有盈餘的時候由他來撥補我認為是最好的方案因為穩定電價也穩定物價是最好的方案對全民的影響是最低的也不會造成整個經濟上大的波動那如果遲遲的不給的時候台電當然勢必虧損會持續加大你又不給他漲電價他持續虧損持續會加大所以我們希望"},{"start":600.729,"end":624.9,"text":"部長強力的持續的去說明那我們希望朝野大家一起努力這個台電是台灣的台電也是大家的台電那電力大家都希望穩定的工業剛講過的缺電沒有這樣的問題的時候我們希望更多人支持台電讓台電穩定的供電穩定的發電讓台灣的產業民生都能夠持續的有好的一個電力好不好 希望持續加強溝通說明是是好 謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝我們現在請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":534,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時47分）謝謝主席。請郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：郭部長好。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：先請教一下，主計總處有公布了今年第一季GDP的成長率5.37%，當然大家對這個數字有很多不同的解讀，部長怎麼看這樣的數字？"],["郭部長智輝：本來大家就預期川普總統上來以後，可能會對關稅有一些要求，所以大家可能在原來比較低關稅的時候趕快出貨，美國的buyer也會有這種想法，所以造成第一季會有這樣的現象。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但全年度應該還是努力以保3為目標？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在看第二季大概也會有比較高的數字，第三季以後就不知道，真正的關稅落了以後……"],["賴委員瑞隆：要看最後談判的結果？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果以目前的狀態，我們應該還是努力在維持在3以上？"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望是這樣，目前4月結束了，今天5月1號，我想4月份大概也都是3以上。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果加入政府投入的4,100億特別預算，我想應該是相當有機會的。"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望今年還是能夠保持原來所估計這樣的部分去努力，但是最後真正的談判結果會造成什麼樣的影響目前還是很難去……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，預定談判結果什麼時候會出來？"],["郭部長智輝：如果按照進度來講，第一批的75國應該都會在7月前談了一個大致，因為他也不可能跟每一個國家都談嘛，那大概就是全面的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：是，所以7月前會談完嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：就是幾個標竿的國家先談，談完以後，後面就比照辦理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我看川普應該很急，他也希望儘快的談好並底定，因為看起來他內部的也……"],["郭部長智輝：如果談太久的話，大概對他們內部的影響也很大，像美國今年第一季也是不好嘛！"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，所以談太久恐怕對他也有相當大的壓力，所以我想應該會儘快來談完。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那我也要請教一下，因為我們製造業的景氣在2月、3月也有了變動，像在2月幾乎爬到了黃紅燈，其實相當不錯，但是到3月降到了黃藍燈，我認為這當然跟川普這些政策也都有相關的連動，部長怎麼看？"],["郭部長智輝：是，臺灣的經濟確實受到美國這個關稅政策的影響非常大。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這個燈號的部分也會受到景氣的影響？"],["郭部長智輝：因為這個是所謂外部環境的變異嘛，所以我想我們都會高度的關注這樣的變異，看未來的發展會造成什麼樣的現象。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，我們也期盼在跟美國的談判有一些好的結果之後，對我們的景氣、對我們的經濟成長率都有一些好的幫助跟影響。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來請教一下，今天好像有人到經濟部去，甚至有立委去批評電力補貼是龐氏騙局，部長怎麼看？是這樣嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：因為我今天一大早就在這裡了，還沒有進經濟部，所以沒有看到這個現象，這個包圍經濟部的活動如果是合法的，我們都尊重國人所有合法的行動；可是如果是不合法的，我們就要檢討為什麼他會採取這個不合法的行動。至於是不是龐氏騙局，我對這個沒有研究，所以我就不予評論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那我問一下，他在這裡面講的是他認為政府現在的能源政策是錯誤的，部長認同這樣的看法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個就是我一直在講的，所謂正確或者錯誤是用什麼時間點來回顧那個情境，不能說你不喜歡的，你就講它是錯誤，在每一個時期都有那個時期的一些決策，當然你現在來看，我是比較想請教他：你對清朝留辮子這件事情認為是正確或者錯誤？所以我們不能夠用現在來評論過去這個是對的或者是錯的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：不過我還是要強調，在當下這樣的狀況之下，非核家園還是入法的，還是在朝野的共識下的……"],["郭部長智輝：對，我們就是要依……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以政府當然必須依照相關的法令來進行嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對，沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：包括核能的部分、核廢料處理也沒有達成共識，甚至於燃煤的部分，大家也覺得燃煤的空污要改善，所以很多縣市也都希望不要燃煤。發展綠能這個方向是國家的趨勢，也是正確的方向，所以我覺得不能夠把這些東西最後就全部導到一句很簡單的話，說現在是一個錯誤的能源政策，講那些是錯誤的能源政策的人，可是我看不出來你的能源政策是什麼。非核家園是國家一個既定的政策，也是朝野的共識，然後核廢料無法處理確實也是一個事實，然後核能安全要怎麼樣讓國人安心，確實目前也沒辦法提出來，所以在當下這個階段，這就是目前的狀態，發展綠電也是目前整個國家的政策，也是世界各國的政策啊！所以我看不懂這些人提出這樣的批評跟這樣的評斷時是用什麼樣的立論基礎來談的。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，就像每一個人吃東西有他的口味，都一樣啦！"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，那就要講出一番道理，就像有人講的，黑的講久了也不會變成白的，我也擔心像這樣不斷的去攻擊能源政策，好像就變成國家的能源政策是錯誤的，那也請提出來你認為具體可行的能源政策是什麼。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，對這個部分我們一定會澄清。"],["賴委員瑞隆：要不斷的講啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我非常擔心三人成虎。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果講了100遍，有可能講到後來就變成好像……"],["郭部長智輝：對，就是三人成虎嘛！我想就是成語故事裡面的三人成虎。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我很擔心這樣子啊！講臺灣獨裁講了100遍，好像臺灣就真的變成獨裁一樣，我覺得這是很錯誤的。"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分我們台電一定會出來澄清。"],["賴委員瑞隆：同樣的，一直講能源政策好像是圖利什麼、綠電是圖利什麼，講久了到後來就變成好像是真的一樣，全世界都在發展綠電，如果哪邊有違法就抓出來嘛！那你不能夠攻擊跟污衊整個能源政策。"],["郭部長智輝：我們認為大家就是依照法令的規定，你認為違法就去提告，我們就是按照法規範下去處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：講100遍有可能就變成讓大家模糊掉了，所以我真的希望經濟部、能源署還是要不斷的大力說明、澄清，包括這幾年在台電的努力下空污其實有大幅的改善，這是很多人重視的，也是我很重視的，我記得在9年前擔任立委的時候就一直盯著空污的數字，因為發展綠電，因為我們減少了燃煤，所以我們的空污大幅的改善，這對於南部、對中部都有很大、很大的幫助，這些絕對都是貢獻，所以我覺得對這些東西應該要正面給予肯定。那也有很多人不斷在造謠說台電是因為非核政策而導致虧損，部長要不要再澄清一次？"],["郭部長智輝：我們一定會再次澄清。"],["賴委員瑞隆：是因為這個能源政策而造成台電的虧損嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：完全不是，我想在這個邏輯上面有需要再導正的部分。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，這個要持續的澄清。"],["郭部長智輝：因為核能最多的時候大概是占臺灣發電的10%，到現在剩下3%，你說現在我把這3%拿掉就會有多大的影響，我想3%會影響97%的這種說法，我真的就是無法想像怎麼會這樣說這樣子以後就有多嚴重。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我要請部長不斷的大力去澄清，好不好？要澄清虧損的問題不是這個所造成的。"],["郭部長智輝：虧損是因為我們過去買的原料比較貴，就是在戰爭的時候，並不是只有臺灣買的價格比較貴，日本也貴、韓國也貴，我們鄰近的國家也都買很貴，而且他們的電價事實上都比我們貴。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，所以這才是根本的原因，你買進來的價格變貴了，但是我們又不讓台電漲價，我們政策上希望不要漲價，所以導致台電承受了這些嘛！","我接下來要問，我們也提出特別預算了，在地方講的時候，很多人都說希望支持台電，不管是立委或者地方的民代，甚至於很多企業都希望支持台電，我們現在又再次提出來1,000億撥補的部分，部長，如果最後沒有獲得在野黨的支持，一樣沒辦法在立法院得到這1,000億的撥補，接下來我們的電價會不會有調漲的壓力？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想電價調漲還是由電價審議委員會來做決定，他們會參考目前的這個狀況，看台電能夠忍受多久的財務危機……"],["賴委員瑞隆：負債比已經達到九成了，我們要馬兒不吃草、又要馬兒好，這個其實是有困難的啦！所以我希望台電要穩健的經營，如果是因為這樣而造成的，那國家財政這幾年的經濟成長率不錯，在有盈餘的時候由國家來撥補，我認為是最好的方案，可以穩定電價，也穩定物價，這是最好的方案，對全民的影響是最低的，也不會造成整個經濟上很大的波動。如果遲遲不給的話，台電當然虧損勢必持續加大，你又不給它漲電價，它的虧損就會持續加大嘛！所以我們希望部長強力、持續的去說明，也希望朝野大家一起來努力，臺灣的台電也是大家的台電，大家都希望電力可以穩定的供應，剛剛也講過，在沒有缺電這樣的問題時，我們希望更多人支持台電，讓台電穩定的供電、穩定的發電，讓臺灣的產業、民生都能夠持續的有好的電力，好不好？我希望你們持續加強溝通、說明。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們現在請鍾佳濱委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我們先請經濟部郭部長郭部長委員好部長好 部長那個非核家園對我而言不只是一個理念也是一個信仰 更是法律規定"},{"start":35.648,"end":62.751,"text":"這不是任何一個黨的一個目標 或是一個黨的一個理念而是一個國家法律規定 我有什麼要講 環境基本法23條政府應制定計畫逐步達成非核家園 知道了嗎知道了嗎 是所以這是一個法律規定那現在大家都討論說核酸要研議"},{"start":64.028,"end":76.683,"text":"您個人我先問一個背景問題好了未來十年台灣缺電的可能性有多大未來十年我大概我們討論過了到2032年"},{"start":79.887,"end":96.643,"text":"2032就是未來7年目前的設施啦跟可以上來的2032年絕對沒有問題絕對不會有缺電的任何可能性這可能性趨近於零對不對我們不能說100%這可能性趨近於零嘛是這樣子嗎"},{"start":97.857,"end":113.987,"text":"這個我們也就是說到2032年是絕對沒有問題那你要講到2035年後面那個三年我說2032年就為七年之內沒有缺電的問題沒有缺電的問題那你2032之後呢它那個包括再生能源"},{"start":114.787,"end":139.986,"text":"包括這個LNG 燃氣各種的這個再生能源都會慢慢的 比例會越來越高 對不對是 我們需要投資的一定會降低嘛 那也是我們目標所以這種情況之下2032年之內 你說2032這7年之內絕對沒有缺電的問題 對不對2032更沒有缺電的問題因為再生能源全部補上來了"},{"start":144.983,"end":169.942,"text":"我們現在是這樣報告委員我們現在是再生能源我們是這樣到2030年我們所有的多元的電能裡面再生能源會從明年的20%到2030年的時候我們會升到30%也就是說再生能源增加主要是因為台灣的業者他需要綠色的能源"},{"start":171.069,"end":178.174,"text":"他需要綠色的能源基於這個綠色能源 所以我們的再生能源會來到30%2030就30%我們明年要讓這個再生能源來到20%這就是屬於綠色能源所以您這麼贊成 我請教您 您這麼贊成核三營業呢您這麼贊成"},{"start":195.031,"end":201.7,"text":"我現在是經濟部長我是依法行事啦如果法令規定這個原意現在法令還沒有修嘛有政黨"},{"start":210.29,"end":237.304,"text":"有個人有立法委員有縣市所長希望核三原議我想請教您個人的意見您贊成核三原議嗎核三原議有三個原則啦三個原則啦就是安全無力成本時間嘛權源有共識核廢料可以處理如果這三個原則可以大家都可以同意的話我就去執行所以你有前提的支持"},{"start":237.944,"end":257.334,"text":"有條件的支持不是支持我是執行執行我有經濟部長嘛我個人看法你這三個條件這三個條件基本上都沒有辦法有共識你說核廢料這些主張要核三要研議的或者要重啟核能的"},{"start":258.991,"end":271.701,"text":"哪一個縣市所長哪一個立法委員哪一個民意代表他敢說他核廢掉放在我的選區放在我的縣市你有聽過有這樣的縣市所長有這樣的國會議員嗎他們有曾經表態過嗎沒有嘛對不對他說要支持核三要延誼核三要延誼你核廢掉要放在以零為貨嘛你知道我意思嗎"},{"start":288.581,"end":314.384,"text":"你敢說要核酸研疫,好,研疫你給我處理,放在我這裡管治,放在我的山谷,有人這樣說嗎?沒有人敢這樣說嘛。這樣就是政客,不管是管治長,或是任何政治人物啊,你的言行要一致啊。我看到這個,真讓人很煩惱,就是說政治人物言而無信。"},{"start":315.743,"end":341.063,"text":"現在我不說 過去說的 哇 這個聲勢力竭 現在就全面反對過去是全力贊同的 現在是全面反對你看他很多這種人所以喔 我是覺得河山這個問題啊 你要有立場我覺得你剛剛說的是你的立場 三個條件社會共識 對不對 安全嘛 另外核廢料可以處理嘛"},{"start":342.079,"end":365.618,"text":"我這個是非常高的門檻這個不可能完整這個滿足是三項條件所以我可不可以再解讀你不支持河山演繹我還是依照這個三個原則在處理啦因為我是這個公務同仁我們的公務同仁也必須要依法依規然後來執行這些事情你是行政部門主管你當然要有的"},{"start":367.189,"end":388.219,"text":"經濟部主管你要有一定的立場你要有一定的態度沒有我就是執行行政院的命令行政院的命令是什麼對你修法還沒有修法但是你行政院也要有態度一樣這個不管有修法沒修法我就執行行政院的命令我個人只要我在立法院我覺得是堅決反對堅決反對"},{"start":391.758,"end":413.767,"text":"而且我覺得這是國家法律規定,不是個人信仰,不是政黨的目標另外漢祥是國家隊,漢祥也是經濟部所屬漢祥跟中科院有一些合約糾紛,我覺得部裡面要來處理一下"},{"start":415.512,"end":441.948,"text":"他那個關鍵的系統件沒有辦法交貨的原因當然不能規則於漢祥不能規則於漢祥所以因為全球產業鏈供應鏈中斷不可抗力因素而不是公司的個人管理的問題所以這樣中科業要給他發10.9億十幾億 十幾億對公司造成很大的影響經濟部主管的漢祥也是漢祥國家隊的隊長"},{"start":445.162,"end":472.65,"text":"這樣 我覺得喔 應該要跨部會協調不然你要了解 要跟國防部合作因為中科院 中科院應該是國防部吧你要了解這件事情 那你來合作幫我安詳這個問題好 我們來進行另外 過去有個施政農董事長啊其實在我的三國興大港 去一個海洋科學園區這部分啊 我最了解沒人比我更了解 我每天在那"},{"start":474.879,"end":496.03,"text":"所以海洋科學園區 這是他個人的想法那我是覺得新達海基要轉型 沒行李嘛 沒調端嘛 所以要專行那地還放在那 蝦皮都在那 蚯蚓都在那那十幾公斤 二十公斤 地還有地"},{"start":501.33,"end":527.01,"text":"我曾經請這個經濟部產業園區管理區召開這個會議我說三米洋很重要特別是針對這個海洋產業海洋科技海洋產業的科學園區很重要所以剛好這個機會新的海地可以轉型那沒有腹地又可以帶動地方的發展地方又有需求"},{"start":528.632,"end":550.294,"text":"又可以帶動協定湖內的發展所以我剛剛這個要大力促成因為我的爭取之下包括北高雄產業園區包括白浦產業園區包括未來的鹿竹產業園區如果不是在那邊質詢這個三個園區不會從天上掉下來不會現在運行一定任何產業園區一定要大力爭取"},{"start":550.914,"end":566.805,"text":"所以我未來希望說海洋科學 海洋產業園區啊能夠在這邊落腳順便以協助新南海地的轉型我們朝這個方向來研議你們要有失聲表那進度要控管一下好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":484,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（10時37分）謝謝主席，先請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長好。部長，非核家園對我而言不只是一個理念，也是一個信仰，更是法律規定，這不是任何一個黨的目標或者一個黨的理念，而是一個國家法律規定。我為什麼這樣說？環境基本法第二十三條規定，政府應訂定計畫，逐步達成非核家園目標。這一條你知道啦？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以這是一個法律規定。現在大家都在討論核三要延役，我先問一個背景問題好了，未來10年臺灣缺電的可能性有多大？"],["郭部長智輝：未來十年，我們大概討論過，到2032年，目前的……"],["邱委員志偉：2032年就是未來七年。"],["郭部長智輝：目前的設施可以上來的，2032年絕對沒有問題。"],["邱委員志偉：絕對不會有缺電的任何可能性，可能性趨近於零，對不對？我們不能說百分之百，但可能性趨近於零，是這樣子嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：也就是到2032年是絕對沒有問題。"],["邱委員志偉：絕對沒有問題，就是不可能缺電！"],["郭部長智輝：你要講到2035年，後面那個三年……"],["邱委員志偉：我知道。我是說到2032年、未來七年之內沒有缺電的問題，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有缺電的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：2032年之後包括再生能源、LNG燃氣及各種再生能源，比例都會慢慢的越來越高，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：燃煤一定會降低，那也是我們的目標，所以在這種情況之下，你說到2032年、這七年之內，絕對沒有缺電的問題，對不對？2032年更沒有缺電的問題，因為再生能源等全部都補上來了，你們為什麼把時間訂在2032年呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在所有多元的電能裡面，再生能源會從明年的20%到2030年會升到30%，也就是再生能源增加主要是因為臺灣的業者需要綠色的能源，基於這個綠色能源的因素，所以再生能源會來到30%，2030年就30%。我們明年要讓再生能源來到20%，這就是屬於綠色能源。"],["邱委員志偉：我請教您贊不贊成核三延役呢？您贊不贊成？"],["郭部長智輝：我現在是經濟部長，我是依法行事，如果法律規定……"],["邱委員志偉：你要有想法！"],["郭部長智輝：如果法令規定延役，我就執行延役。"],["邱委員志偉：不是，現在法律還沒有修，有政黨、個人、立法委員、縣市首長希望核三延役。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["邱委員志偉：我想請教您個人的意見，您贊成核三延役嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：核三延役有三個原則，就是安全無慮……"],["邱委員志偉：成本、時間。"],["郭部長智輝：全員有共識、核廢料可以處理，如果這三個原則大家都可以同意，我就去執行。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你是有前提的支持、有條件的支持？"],["郭部長智輝：不是支持，我是執行。我是經濟部長，所以我要執行法律規定的事情。"],["邱委員志偉：這三個條件基本上都沒有辦法有共識。這些主張核三要延役的或者要重啟核核能的，哪一個縣市首長、哪一個立法委員、哪一個民意代表敢說，核廢料放在他的選區、縣市？你有聽過有這樣的縣市首長、這樣的國會議員嗎？他們曾經表態過嗎？沒有，對不對？他說要支持核三延役，核廢料要放在哪裡？以鄰為壑！你知道我的意思嗎？你敢說要核三延役，核廢料你來處理，放在你的縣市、放在你的選區，有人這樣說嗎？沒有人敢這樣說！這樣就是政客，不管是縣市長或任何政治人物，言行要一致，我看到這個覺得很煩惱，政治人物言而無信、隨便亂講，過去說得聲嘶力竭，現在卻全面反對；過去是全力贊同的，現在是全面反對，立法院很多這種人。我覺得核三這個問題你要有立場，你剛剛說的是你的立場，有三個條件包括社會共識、安全，另外是核廢料可以處理，對不對？這個是非常高的門檻，不可能完成、滿足這三項條件，所以我可不可以再解讀，你不支持核三延役？"],["郭部長智輝：我還是依照這三個原則在處理，因為我們的公務同仁也必須要依法、依規來執行這些事情。"],["邱委員志偉：你是行政部門主管、經濟部主管，你要有一定的立場、一定的態度！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，我就是執行行政院的命令。"],["邱委員志偉：行政院的命令是什麼？雖然還沒有修法，但是行政院要有態度。"],["郭部長智輝：一樣，不管有修法、沒修法，我就執行行政院的命令。"],["邱委員志偉：我個人只要在立法院就是堅決反對，而且這是國家法律規定，不是個人信仰，也不是政黨的目標。","另外，漢翔是國家隊，對不對？漢翔也是經濟部所屬，漢翔跟中科院有一些合約糾紛，我覺得部裡要來處理一下。關鍵的系統件沒有辦法交貨的原因，當然不能歸責於漢翔，是因為全球供應鏈中斷的不可抗力因素，而不是公司管理的問題，這樣中科院竟要罰他將近11億，對公司當然造成很大的影響。經濟部是主管，也是漢翔國家隊的隊長，我覺得應該跨部會協調，部長要了解並跟國防部協調。中科院應該是國防部業管的，你要了解這件事情，麻煩你來協調，幫忙漢翔解決這個問題。"],["郭部長智輝：好，我們來進行。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，過去有個施振榮董事長提議在我的選區興達港蓋海洋科學園區，這個部分我最了解，沒人比我更了解，我每天都在那裡，當地所有的建設我都有參與。海洋科學園區是他個人的想法，而我覺得興達海基要轉型，因為沒生意、沒訂單，所以要轉型。地在那邊，設備都在那邊，廠房也都在那邊，有20公頃，旁邊還有地，加起來差不多40公頃。我也曾經請經濟部產業園區管理局召開會議，我說產業園區很重要，特別是針對海洋產業、海洋科技的科學園區很重要。剛好有這個機會，興達海基可以轉型，又有腹地可以帶動地方發展，地方有需求，又可以帶動茄萣、湖內的發展，所以這個要大力促成。因為在我的爭取之下，包括北高雄產業園區、白埔產業園區以及未來的路竹產業園區，如果不是我在這邊質詢，這三個園區不會從天上掉下來，不會現在運行中，任何產業園區一定要大力爭取，所以我希望海洋產業園區未來能夠在這邊落腳，順便協助興達海基轉型。部長的看法呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們朝這個方向來研議。"],["邱委員志偉：你們要有時程表。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你真的要控管一下進度。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請賴瑞隆委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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迄今約大概僅有10萬人簽署那簽署率大概是0.45%那簽署率就已經這麼低了 在簽署之後會去執行的一定會更低一定會更低"},{"start":78.328,"end":92.113,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下本席想要請教部長也就是說我們看到目前的障礙許多的民眾還有很多人根本不知道什麼是律例醫療的一個決定"},{"start":94.053,"end":119.608,"text":"那第二個就是說甚至有一些年輕的朋友他知道但是我們的民風比較保守年輕的朋友他也不敢給長輩講也不敢給長輩講這也是因素之一那所以在整個生死話題當中因為我們比較保守他會視為一個禁忌那請問政府你剛剛頻頻點頭就是說我說是還有很多人不知道"},{"start":120.528,"end":138.985,"text":"這個法令那你們要怎麼樣去宣傳讓病人他了解自己擁有的一個尊嚴善終的一個權利請做說明好 謝謝委員的關心我想這個是非常重要的一個討論的議題那這個部分其實"},{"start":140.442,"end":154.859,"text":"醫事師有做相當深入的研究 等一下簡單報告那您委員提到說我們的文化的確是你也很了解我們民眾我在30多年前在日本NAND研究所的時候我就是做這方面的研究"},{"start":155.748,"end":171.546,"text":"那其實當時的結論就是我們台東方人跟俄美人不太一樣 俄美人都用尖叫的啦嚇到來啦我們台灣人喔 北部他就給我們嚇黑啦用講的就好 一個眼神可能就是齁但是這樣子也造成的確臨床上"},{"start":172.347,"end":194.323,"text":"最後的選擇 哇 算很不容易您也說在這方面非常專精但是每一個國家的樣態不一樣特別提出我們的民風所以也針對這些的問題點就是面向點那我們要怎麼樣去做既然一個法通過當然我們希望能夠執行之"},{"start":196.164,"end":215.78,"text":"人民來自己來選擇但是如果說我們一個法通過連民眾都不知道那政府有責任喔來請做說明我們要怎麼樣宣導讓人民可以知道好 那宣導絕對是要做的那至於說他的原因就是說先時率比較低的原因一絲絲有一直做研究可不可以簡單請他講一下好 請做說明劉市長"},{"start":217.177,"end":241.791,"text":"我先簡單講一下其實兩大原因一個是民眾的認知就誠如剛剛委員講的另外一塊是費用然後民眾認知部分的話其實在做宣導的部分我們大概第一件事情其實也歡迎現場的立委就是說我們的1月1月是病主日然後6月是我們的棄捐然後10月是病安寧所以我們大概就是跟那個病"},{"start":242.691,"end":266.511,"text":"契捐病毒中心這邊合作也就是說每一年其實在1月6月10月的時候會有帶狀的一個宣導活動 這是第一點要跟你討論的是部長還在這裡目前我們所做的步驟就是如此但是他的答案是不盡理想所以部長我再請部長部長就這個宣導的方式你們去研擬"},{"start":267.392,"end":281.65,"text":"什麼樣的方式不要我們回我們質詢的時候你就依照目前所做本期已經告訴你目前你所做的方法已經達不到你所預估的成效所以你們有精進的空間嘛好不好好好去討論第二個議題市長剛才說的有就是費用問題是資商"},{"start":286.035,"end":314.293,"text":"諮商是病人自主權利法的一個最重要的核心是不是所以在這樣的一個情況之下那麼諮商的費用那到底要怎麼處理有委員提案是希望由公家來處理剛剛在討論說這個經費我們似乎要循序漸進開放的態度請教部長你的看法好我們就逐步逐步漸進嘛你現在逐步你預計要怎麼做"},{"start":316.175,"end":345.915,"text":"你逐步預計要怎麼做我們一直在開 從去年7月開放然後5月又會開放比較更多的人你預計5月份再開放什麼呢就有180萬個人是是 沒關係我本期也贊同循序漸進要迎合我們的預算而且還要有社會的面向那你認為你在5月今天就5月1號了嘛那你預計你5月份你會再繼續怎麼做呢請做說明"},{"start":348.397,"end":369.131,"text":"市長請回答沒關係 細節部分細節部分的話就是我們健保署這邊的話會開放連同門診有包括失智類似像這樣有65歲以上的病人其實是可以接受這樣子的一個諮商服務是由健保這邊會做一個處理我們的設定點是在65歲以上嘛失智"},{"start":371.292,"end":396.126,"text":"有重大傷病 它其實有五大類的一個重大傷病嘛 對 有五大類的疾病就六十五歲以上 從五月份開始 是嗎本期就是希望部長 本期希望說我們讓社會大眾會知道政府到底在做什麼那民眾有什麼樣的權益我們循序漸進都OK那主要的是讓病人他能夠非常的有尊嚴這是大家共同的一個目標嘛"},{"start":398.627,"end":426.543,"text":"接下來最後一個議題本期跟你討論今天是5月1號那麼台大醫院工會前天發出的聲明那個部長你有了解到這個問題嗎因為他說院方日前針對於勞動節進行出勤的調查他只有兩個選項一個選項是同意到院工作但是選擇移到國定假日第二個選項是同意到院方工作但是以加班的方式來"},{"start":428.263,"end":447.732,"text":"但是沒有依照勞基法明文規定依法休假一日當天不到院工作這是工會所提出的您知道這個事情嗎?報告員我了解而且台大的回應是說他這個表單是針對來上班的人讓他選擇是要用補假的方式或者是加班"},{"start":449.032,"end":466.56,"text":"會的方式來處理這是台大醫院的回應當然我們會去進一步的了解一定要了解清楚因為公會非常清楚的就是說兩個選項沒有第三項依法的選項那是已經來上班的人那是已經來上班那誰敢不來上班呢"},{"start":467.558,"end":483.912,"text":"當然以權利來講他是可以不來上班啊以權利來講可以不來上班 這個有錄音錄影部長這是您說的更是 部長我們還是要好好的去溝通因為我們知道這個問題的重點是在於"},{"start":485.533,"end":507.04,"text":"醫護人員的休假的權益 怎麼樣去增補人力 增列津貼這才是真正的要解決醫護人力不足的問題 本市當然不希望我們的工會跟院方大家有所爭執這樣子對病人也不好我們希望達到三全其美 但是你必須要好好的去照顧這些醫護人員"},{"start":508.761,"end":534.616,"text":"當然當然所以我也希望你詳細去給他查清楚因為公會既然提出了這樣的方向又在今天的五一勞動節我們也希望可以讓我們的勞工大家可以快樂嘛好好的來工作嘛這是在醫院裡面也是你非常重要的一個面向嘛好你去查清楚然後給本席說明資料好的好的我會請台大再說明清楚好謝謝好謝謝恩維謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":350,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時33分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。關於今天這個議題，我們從2019年實施病人自主權利法，是亞洲第一部保障病人自主權利的法律，當然，透過預立醫療照護諮商的過程當中，患者與家人深度溝通，經由醫療人員給予專業意見，在家人及親友的見證下完成預立醫療的決定，讓病人有權利決定人生最後的醫療處置，避免讓自己不可逆昏迷或者成為永久植物人。但是我們看到病人自主權利法上路了5年，迄今僅有約10萬人簽署，簽署率大概是0.45%，簽署率已經這麼低了，在簽署之後會去執行的一定會更低。","在這樣的情況之下，本席想要請教部長，我們看到目前的障礙，許多民眾根本不知道什麼是預立醫療的決定。第二個，甚至有一些年輕的朋友知道，但是我們的民風比較保守，年輕的朋友不敢跟長輩講，這也是因素之一。所以在整個生死話題當中，因為我們比較保守，會視為禁忌。剛剛部長頻頻點頭，我說還有很多人不知道這個法律，請問你們要怎麼樣去宣傳，讓病人瞭解自己擁有的尊嚴、善終的權利？請做說明。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的關心。我想這個是非常重要的討論議題，針對這個部分，其實醫事司有做相當深入的研究，等一下跟委員簡單報告。委員提到我們的文化，你的確很瞭解我們的民眾。我三十多年前在日本唸研究所的時候就是做這方面的研究，當時的結論是我們東方人跟歐美人不太一樣，歐美人都用簽約、寫下來的，但是我們臺灣人，父母會覺得為什麼要寫這些，用講的就好了，一個眼神可能就……但是這樣子的確也造成臨床上最後的選擇很不方便……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，您也說您在這方面非常地專精……"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，有涉獵啦。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是每一個國家的樣態不一樣，本席特別提出我們的民風，針對這些問題點、面向點，我們要怎麼樣去做？既然一個法通過了，當然我們希望能夠執行之，讓人民自己來選擇。但是如果一個法通過，連民眾都不知道，那政府有責任囉！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請說明我們要怎麼樣宣導，讓人民可以知道？"],["邱部長泰源：宣導絕對是要做的。至於簽署率比較低的原因，醫事司有一直做研究，可不可以請劉司長簡單講一下？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請做說明。"],["劉司長越萍：我先簡單講一下兩大原因，一個是民眾的認知，就誠如剛剛委員講的；另外一塊是費用。在民眾認知部分，其實在做宣導的部分，第一件事情，也歡迎現場的立委……1月是病主日，6月是器捐，10月是安寧，所以我們跟器捐、病主中心合作，也就是每一年在1月、6月、10月的時候會有算是帶狀的宣導活動，這是第一點。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：司長，部長也在這裡，本席要跟你討論的是，目前我們所做的步驟就是如此，但是它的答案是不盡理想。我再請問部長，就這個宣導的方式，請你們去研擬什麼樣的方式，不要我們質詢的時候，你回答就依照目前所做，本席已經告訴你目前你所做的方法已經達不到你預估的成效，所以你們有精進的空間，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好好去討論。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第二個議題就是司長剛才說的費用問題，諮商是病人自主權利法一個最重要的核心，是不是？所以在這樣的情況之下，諮商的費用到底要怎麼處理呢？有委員提案，希望由公家來處理，剛剛有討論到，針對這個經費，我們似乎要採循序漸進、開放的態度，請教部長的看法。"],["邱部長泰源：我們就逐步漸進。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在針對逐步，你預計要怎麼做？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一直在開放，從去年7月開放，然後5月又會開放更多的人，就會有180萬個人……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒關係，本席也贊同循序漸進，要迎合我們的預算，而且還要考慮社會的面向。今天就5月1號了，你預計5月份會再繼續怎麼做呢？請說明。沒關係，請司長回答細節的部分。"],["劉司長越萍：細節的部分，我們健保署會開放，連同門診的部分，包括65歲以上有失智等等類似情況的病人，其實可以接受這樣的諮商服務，健保這邊會處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們的設定點是在65歲以上？"],["劉司長越萍：對，其實這有五大類的重大傷病……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：65歲以上的是從5月份開始，是嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席希望部長能讓社會大眾知道政府到底在做什麼，民眾有什麼樣的權益可以爭取，我們循序漸進，這都OK，主要的是讓病人能夠非常的有尊嚴，這是大家共同的目標。","接下來本席要跟你討論最後一個議題，今天是5月1號，臺大醫院工會前天發出了聲明，部長有了解到這個問題嗎？該聲明提到，院方日前針對於勞動節進行出勤的調查，裡面只有兩個選項，第一個選項是「同意到院工作，並選擇調移國定假日」；第二個選項是「同意到院工作，並以加班方式辦理」，但是這沒有依照勞基法明文規定的「依法休假一日，當天不到院工作」，這是工會所提出的，你知道這個事情嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我了解，臺大的回應是，這個表單是針對來上班的人，讓他選擇要用補假的方式，或者是用加班費的方式來處理，這是臺大醫院的回應，當然我們會去進一步了解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一定要了解清楚，因為工會非常清楚的表示，只有兩個選項，沒有第三項依法的選項。"],["邱部長泰源：那是針對已經來上班的人。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：誰敢不來上班呢？"],["邱部長泰源：當然以權利來講，他是可以不來上班。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：以權利來講，是可以不來上班，這個有錄音錄影，部長，這是您說的。"],["邱部長泰源：就是依照勞基法的規定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，我們還是要好好去溝通，因為我們知道這個問題的重點在於醫護人員的休假權益，還有怎麼樣去增補人力、增列津貼，這才能真正解決醫護人力不足的問題。本席當然不希望工會跟院方有所爭執，這樣子對病人也不好，我們希望達到三全其美，但是你必須要好好的去照顧這些醫護人員，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我也希望你詳實地去查清楚。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為工會既然提出了這樣的方向，又是在今天的五一勞動節，我們也希望讓我們的勞工大家可以快樂、好好來工作，畢竟醫院也是你非常重要的一個面向。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請你清查清楚，然後給本席書面資料。謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好的，我會請臺大再說明清楚，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員，謝謝部長。重新公告：廖偉翔委員質詢完之後，我們休息10分鐘。","部長，我再提醒一下，我們當然要提高服務量能，剛才王委員、楊委員都有提到要提高服務量能，也要兼顧品質，對不對？針對預立醫療照護諮商，剛才司長答復說未來的期許目標是每年2萬變成每年4萬，所以你2萬要變成4萬要怎麼變呢？要用什麼方法？除了健保署現在擴大至65歲以上有重大疾病者等等，剛剛署長已經跟委員會報告，那會有180萬人，這還不包含健康的、不包含其他自願要來做的，對不對？180萬即便讓你除以4萬，就算原本是除以2萬，也要90年才做得完耶！除以4萬，則還要45年才做得完耶！你們怎麼提高服務的量能？還有，做一個諮商要做多久時間？到目前為止，要去做諮商的，掛號就要等一個多月，請面對事實，講清楚啦！不能這樣處理啦！","請莊委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","莊瑞雄","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳培瑜","楊曜","陳瑩","涂權吉","陳菁徽"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；二、委員劉建國等\n16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利\n法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00007"}}},{"id":"160861","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160861","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc033c069c23ab22af24de01e9c6ce952975d77c67688655a4239d1813f657b559b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"10:27:58 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部長好"},{"start":26.941,"end":46.266,"text":"部長針對這一次的美國的一個對等關稅那當然台灣有相對應應應的措施所以行政院提出了這一個4100億的特別預算那這個特別預算裡面當然是由經濟部來做主責未來會由經濟部跟財政部來做聯席的一個審查"},{"start":46.866,"end":70.864,"text":"那經濟部主責的大概就是在協助產業如何在這個時候第一個要安定第二個要幫他們找到國際市場我想說這個保定我們在過去幾次的諮詢我們都有講到那針對找協助產業去擴展他們的一個爭取海外訂單這件事那我們現在經濟部的具體做法我想請部長可不可以再說明一下"},{"start":71.084,"end":99.321,"text":"是 報告委員我們大概因為這個關稅的問題造成台灣很多的這個中小微企業可能面臨在這個這個取單上面面臨到一個很大的窘境所以我們現在經濟部的做法就是說我們用一個品牌的名字叫台灣SELECT這個來把這個中小的企業把它整合起來所以我們帶他們一起到這個海外去參展"},{"start":100.563,"end":121.119,"text":"不要再像過去 他們用兩個boost 三個boost 這個小小的boost然後去個別展 跟恰恰修一樣所以我們現在是用一個大的會館 台灣館台灣館來參展 然後讓各個企業都在裡面 再落在裡面讓我們幫助他們來取得這個訂單部長我想你說的應該是比較大的範圍"},{"start":122.52,"end":148.679,"text":"如果是一個比較大型的比方說機械展這可能就有台灣館比方說整個類似的農機展類似這樣的概念但是有一些訂單的爭取那些展覽未必是那種大型的未必會變成台灣整體出去我們大概就是台灣一個品牌然後如果他的公司是比較中型的公司或者是比較比較有規模的公司我們就補貼"},{"start":153.261,"end":173.431,"text":"所以說到補助這塊我想跟部長來講因為我們現在這個補助的規定就是說大概我們是看他如果要出去參加展覽然後我們大概就是補助他多少攤位那目前現在大概就是一個攤位我們會補助他4萬塊那如果他增加一個攤位就再增加就給他增加5000塊"},{"start":174.871,"end":197.531,"text":"那上限就是六萬塊那我回答不斷地說那如果處理展覽一個攤位那真的不會看錢一個攤位小小的大概就六到八這個平方公尺六到八平方公尺所以通常有些人有要處理可能都要拚三個攤位四個攤位那種感覺說哇有這個陣仗做生意就是這樣做生意你如果不把責任出來有時那些長輩要催你那個誘因就比較不夠"},{"start":202.896,"end":214.731,"text":"所以我現在會說 你如果用這樣一步走就是說你給他四萬塊 增加一個攤位五千塊可是你想廠商要出去爭取訂單事實上他花費是很多"},{"start":215.848,"end":232.726,"text":"但是政府的補助力道看起來這樣小小的是 報告委員我想這一部分為什麼我們這次會增加到100億的預算這個也是這個院長跟這個總統在下鄉跟這個所有的業者座談的時候聽到大家的這個反應"},{"start":233.506,"end":247.072,"text":"所以我們特別編列了比較高的這個費用來補助啦基本上我們是要改變那個參展的型態啦像剛才委員在指教的兩個攤位、三個攤位太衰、太渺小所以我就把它整合變成一百個部室,都台灣的"},{"start":257.017,"end":273.293,"text":"我們裡面有各種應用的設施這樣的時候人家在看的人看到大嘛 說大就是美所以我們還會有現場的我們聘的人員我們聘的人員 翻譯的人員這都是經濟部"},{"start":275.575,"end":299.3,"text":"外貿協會 或者是我們貿易署 我們聚能員在現場幫忙協助好 我覺得這個方向都很好 所以這個應該就是未來特別預算過後 然後這個就要趕緊實施這個要請大院各位委員來協助我相信未來我們應該會跟在野黨也一樣 大家一起趕快把這個4100億 趕快給過不要拘泥在一些小節 大家要趕快給過"},{"start":300.28,"end":323.638,"text":"那我再具體建議啦,事實上我想跟部長說我們在這個補助參展,事實上我們應該做產業別,甚至營業額來做一個區隔我想要說營業額,我覺得補充這是我一個建議啦,你要去外國拚國際電端事實上如果沒有一定規模的公司,沒有那個能量"},{"start":324.318,"end":342.723,"text":"所以我意思是說,我們既然要打的,是要打國際盃比如說我們在打棒球的時候,我們會不會是組台灣的一軍出去打?最強的給處理啊你最強的處理,我每次都會頂多,手長的我們最強的對我處理,我就打世界冠軍啊如果還在二軍的,可能就是他們的新調境所以我意思是說,如果這個產業的營業額越大"},{"start":351.435,"end":367.718,"text":"應該要給他更多的補助讓他更有能量代表台灣隊去去國際把訂單徵取回來部長你支持這樣做嗎報告委員我想委員的這些指正我們都會朝這個方向來考慮不過我們希望以大代小"},{"start":368.649,"end":368.989,"text":"所以事實上我覺得這個補助企業參加參展這個事情"},{"start":392.01,"end":406.215,"text":"我們會強化然後第二個我想再請教一下因為我們這一次在因應這個關稅那我看到經濟部磊事實上有講到了一個概念叫做要來推動從過去就一直在講的產業園區立體化那我想要問一下部長我們這一次的產業園區立體化我們的具體作為是什麼"},{"start":414.778,"end":417.62,"text":"我們產業園區具體化,基本上我們用容積獎勵,稍微大家的道路做寬一點,大家退縮一點,然後把原來的廠區我們可以朝高度上面去放寬"},{"start":434.233,"end":461.048,"text":"所以是農機有辦法再做一些放寬嘛對不對好那農機放寬的話我想要跟部長說新加坡因為他的土地就那一點點嘛所以新加坡在做他的產業園區的時候都用一個叫做垂直分區的概念這個垂直分區有一個叫做產業上樓有一個叫做生活上樓所以他們甚至說產業園區裡面也有住宅然後也有其他的辦公空間那是新加坡他們的模式沒辦法複製到我們"},{"start":462.889,"end":478.139,"text":"我們現在經濟部新設的產業園區我們在服務中心上面就會蓋這個宿舍跟生活所需的這個很好可是我現在要問的你剛剛講的大概是產惡啦"},{"start":479.293,"end":484.882,"text":"就是說那個辦公的空間我現在要說的是產業尤其是過去傳統的產業園區那有沒有辦法在這次的產業園區立體化也讓他們打破過去的一個限制"},{"start":495.397,"end":510.753,"text":"就比方說我嘉義有一個嘉泰產業園區嘉泰產業園區他是我們嘉義唯一的甲級的產業園區甲級的產業園區的土地非常的珍貴啊所以他根本就賣光光然後那裡的廠商他也找不到其他的"},{"start":511.354,"end":536.969,"text":"其他的產業園區同樣有到甲級的資格啊所以他們一個期待就是說如果產業園區立體化我們把我們現有的廠房我們就把它更新更新後給我們容積獎勵讓我們蓋高一點當然在符合所有建築法規蓋高一點的情況之下我的生產線可以有更寬裕的空間我覺得這倒是一個很好的方式啊是的是的 這個我們是朝這個方向在努力"},{"start":537.349,"end":562.776,"text":"好 我覺得這方面經濟部趕快把辦法定出來然後有一個具體作為因為我們不是說每次都一直腦袋裡面只想著喔我要再開發新的產業園區我要在哪裡再開發新的不能這樣過去的產業園區我們還是要給他這一些獎勵他們在這個產業園區已經在這裡紮根這麼久如果他們可以透過立體化爭取農基率的話他們會把廠房提升"},{"start":563.817,"end":573.707,"text":"廠房提升甚至他們也可以導入綠能導入更多的東西進來是好不好我們會在今年內來公告實施這個步伐部長這個很期待好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":441,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（10時28分）謝謝召委，我們是不是有請部長？"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長好。針對這一次美國的對等關稅，當然臺灣有相對的因應措施，所以行政院提出了這4,100億特別預算。這個特別預算裡面，當然是由經濟部主責，未來會由經濟部跟財政部聯席審查。經濟部主責的大概就是協助產業如何在這個時候，第一個，要安定；第二個，幫他們找到國際市場。部長，這在過去幾次的質詢我們都有講到。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：針對協助產業爭取海外訂單這件事情，可不可以請部長再說明現在經濟部的具體作法？"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，因為關稅的問題，造成臺灣很多中小微企業可能在取單上面臨到一個很大的窘境，所以現在經濟部的作法就是，我們用一個品牌的名字，叫「Taiwan Select」，將中小企業整合起來，我們帶他們一起到海外去參展，不要再像過去他們用兩個booth、三個booth，用小小的booth去個別展，就像鳥巢一樣，所以我們現在是用一個大的會館「臺灣館」來參展，然後讓各個企業都落在裡面，我們幫助他們來取得訂單。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我想你說的應該是比較大的範圍，如果是一個比較大型的展，比方說機械展，這可能就會有臺灣館，或是農機展，類似這樣的概念。"],["郭部長智輝：對、對、對。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是有一些訂單的爭取，那些展覽未必是大型的，未必會變成臺灣整體出去參展，它有一點是會變成……"],["郭部長智輝：我們大概就是臺灣一個品牌，如果他的公司是比較中型的公司或者是比較有規模的公司，我們就補貼他，他要自己去參加展覽……"],["蔡委員易餘：講到補貼這一塊，我想跟部長講，因為現在補助的規定是，他如果要出去參加展覽，我們就是看他有多少攤位來補助他，目前大概一個攤位會補助4萬塊，如果增加一個攤位，就給他增加5,000塊，上限就是6萬塊。我要告訴部長的是，如果出去展覽，一個攤位真的不能看，一個攤位小小的，大概就6到8平方公尺，所以通常廠商要出去展覽，可能都要拚3個攤位、4個攤位，才會讓人家覺得有這個陣仗，做生意就是這樣做，做生意的如果沒有把場面擺出來，有時候那些訂單找你的誘因就會比較不夠。所以我現在要說，你如果是用這樣的補助，你給他4萬塊，然後增加一個攤位才多5,000塊，你想廠商要出去爭取訂單，事實上他要花費很多，但是政府的補助力道看起來卻是這樣小小的。"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我想這一部分，為什麼我們這次會增加到100億的預算？這也是院長跟總統下鄉跟所有業者座談的時候聽到大家的反映，所以我們特別編列了比較高的費用來補助，我們的補助方法基本上是要改變參展的型態，像剛才委員指教的，2個攤位、3個攤位太小、太渺小，別人可能看不到……"],["蔡委員易餘：對，我覺得用「渺小」這個名詞很適當。"],["郭部長智輝：所以我就把他們整合變成一個大的。"],["蔡委員易餘：大家一起來。"],["郭部長智輝：100個booth都是臺灣的，裡面有各種應用的設備、設施，當這樣的時候，別人才會看得到，數大就是美，然後現場還會有我們聘的人員、翻譯的人員，這都是經濟部外貿協會或是貿易署可以做的……"],["蔡委員易餘：你們會聘人員在現場幫忙、協助。"],["郭部長智輝：幫助他，他就不用派那麼多人去。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得這方向都很好，所以未來特別預算過後，這個就要改進、實施。"],["郭部長智輝：是，這個要請大院各位委員來協助。"],["蔡委員易餘：我相信未來在野黨也一樣，大家會一起趕快把這個4,100億通過，不要拘泥在一些小節，大家要趕快拚通過。我再具體建議，我想跟部長說，我們在補助參展的時候，事實上我們應該用產業別、甚至營業額來做一個區隔，我為什麼要說營業額？部長，這是我一個建議，你如果要去外國拚國際訂單，事實上如果沒有一定規模的公司，是沒有那個能量的。所以我的意思是，既然我們要打的是國際盃，比如說我們在打棒球的時候，我們會不會組臺灣的一軍出去打？派最強的出去啊！派最強的出去才有辦法把訂單搶回來，我們派最強的隊伍出去才有辦法打世界冠軍，如果還在二軍的，可能他們要先調整。所以我的意思是，如果這個產業的營業額越大，應該要給他越多的補助，讓他更有能量代表臺灣隊去國際把訂單爭取回來。部長，你支持這樣做嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，委員的這些指正，我們都會朝這個方向來考慮，不過我們希望以大帶小，不是只有大的出去，二軍也要出國去見習一下，以大帶小，整合式啦！"],["蔡委員易餘：這樣也很好啊，以大帶小，不過前提是你要讓這個大的有動力啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在就是全部掛供應鏈，以大帶小。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，所以我覺得補助企業參展這個事情要趕快推動。"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們會強化。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個，我想再請教一下，我們這一次在因應關稅，我看到經濟部有講到一個概念，就是要推動從過去一直在講的產業園區立體化。我想請問部長，這一次的產業園區立體化的具體作為是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：關於產業園區立體化，基本上我們會用容積獎勵的方式，會稍微把大家的道路做寬一點，然後大家退縮一點，把原來的廠區朝高度上面去放寬。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以是容積有辦法再做一些放寬嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果是容積放寬的話，我想要跟部長說，以新加坡為例，因為他的土地就那一點點，所以新加坡在做他的產業園區的時候，都用一個叫做垂直分區的概念，這個垂直分區有的叫做產業上樓，有的叫做生活上樓，他們甚至產業園區裡面也有住宅，也有其他的辦公空間，當然那是新加坡，他的模式沒辦法複製到我們這裡，跟我們不一樣。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，現在經濟部新設的產業園區，在服務中心上面就會蓋宿舍跟生活所需的這些設施。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個很好，你剛剛講的大概是產二，就是辦公的空間。"],["郭部長智輝：不、不、不。"],["蔡委員易餘：我現在要說的是產一，尤其是過去傳統的產業園區，有沒有辦法在這一次產業園區立體化中，也讓他們打破過去的限制？比方說，嘉義有一個嘉太產業園區，嘉太產業園區是嘉義唯一的甲級產業園區，甲級產業園區的土地非常珍貴，所以他根本就賣光光，然後那裡的廠商也找不到其他的產業園區同樣有到甲級的資格，所以他們有個期待就是，如果產業園區立體化，把我們現有的廠房更新，更新後給我們容積獎勵，讓我們蓋高一點，當然在符合所有建築法規蓋高一點的情況之下，我的生產線可以有更寬裕的空間，我覺得這倒是一個很好的方式。"],["郭部長智輝：是的，我們朝這個方向在努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我覺得這方面，經濟部要趕快把辦法訂出來，要有一個具體作為，而不是每一次腦袋裡面只想著：我要再開發新的產業園區、我要在哪裡再開發新的。不能這樣！對於過去的產業園區，我們還是要給他獎勵，他們已經在這個產業園區扎根這麼久了，如果他們可以透過立體化爭取容積率的話，他們會把廠房提升，甚至他們也可以導入綠能，導入更多的東西進來，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會在今年內來公告實施這個部分。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，部長，這個很令人期待，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請邱志偉委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝我們的召委今天排這個很重要的病毒法他的整個修正的條文我想有關於病毒法這個是我們當時在2019年1月正式實施之後我們是亞洲第一部就是以病人為主體"},{"start":27.885,"end":56.038,"text":"然後提供很完整的一方面去尊重醫療自主一方面去保障這個善終權益所以這個法我覺得整個亞洲地區來講台灣我們走在前面這個的確是我們應該要好好的來推動的那這六年來其實事情下來呢有出現一些的狀況跟問題就是說當時這個利益非常良善的法案但是上路之後"},{"start":56.798,"end":59.579,"text":"至少這個整個執行的醫療簽署率其實並不高如果累計的話現在大概跟我們成人的比例站起來大概只有0.5%所以也代表說我們六年了應該回過頭來檢討我們有哪些地方可以好好的來"},{"start":72.765,"end":101.49,"text":"改變那我想當時推動這部法案非常用力的楊玉欣委員那他雖然現在離開立法院但是他很關注這個法後續的實施所以基本上我想我跟劉建國委員我們其實都跟他有保持這個互動所以討論之後我們提出了這樣的一個修法的版本那很重要的幾個點第一個當然就是在這個醫療費用的部分這個是現在很多人"},{"start":102.208,"end":123.505,"text":"可能覺得在醫療費用他其實是自己要負擔2000到3500那這個也會阻礙一些人就是說可能礙於費用他沒有辦法來做這個預理醫療的簽署所以費用的部分政府是使得來支應這個是這一次修法的重點那當然"},{"start":124.287,"end":136.814,"text":"會希望說是不是健保這邊可以來給予支應所以這個部分這個是很大的一個重點另外一個就是現在可以進行這個育麗醫療照護諮商的單位除了原來在醫療機構裡面的區域醫院跟診所之外那是不是應該可以去開放一樣是很專業的團體"},{"start":147.213,"end":175.598,"text":"包括這個有一些護理機構長照機構心理治療所心理諮商所還有社工事務所也都可以來參與因為主要是現在的這個等待的時間是比較長的就是醫院裡面能提供的量能其實也是比較低的所以這個部分也希望可以來開放那另外就是要實施病毒法怎麼樣真正去落實這個原來病人的意願"},{"start":176.377,"end":184.963,"text":"那關係人也不可以再去妨礙醫師執行這個是在第4條裡面有提出來修訂那另外病毒法裡面第14條裡面"},{"start":187.476,"end":206.916,"text":"特別去修訂就是不要讓這個執行的醫療機構或醫師再去擔負這個刑事行政的責任原本來就有規定那現在再增加一個是民事的責任所以我想這一次委員提出這樣的一個修法就是希望說讓我們這麼亞洲第一的我們的病毒法"},{"start":207.423,"end":217.798,"text":"就是可以真正的落實然後去符合到他原來的這個我們希望病人自主而且呢可以善終這樣的一個目標"},{"start":219.898,"end":236.857,"text":"那所以這個謝謝莊委給我提案說明的時間那接下來我們就請那個部長是不是我們針對這個議題我們好好的來討論一下第一個就是我想請教部長事實上你剛剛的發言我發現你也是非常支持這一個善終"},{"start":238.683,"end":257.214,"text":"醫療這樣的一個方向喔那但是病毒法實施到現在你可以看到他的這個施行率的確是不高喔那所以這個就衛福部部長的角度的話第一個我要問你說你滿意現在的這一個育立醫療的人數嗎就是你是不是覺得他應該還有成長的空間"},{"start":260.995,"end":273.384,"text":"我們當然希望它人數一個成長因為其實各個醫院已經都準備團隊在那邊準備服務了啦所以其實量能是有但是就是民眾有沒有意願"},{"start":275.085,"end":299.417,"text":"那這個真的剛剛也有委員提到怎麼樣做生命的教育加強生命的教育讓大家能夠來注重這個他自然就覺得這個去簽有意義那這個也是七棟的聯誼可能也不止完全是經會的問題當然經會也是的確是一個原因但是如果生命教育夠讓大家知道這是重要的"},{"start":300.157,"end":318.543,"text":"我相信這有更大的啟動力我覺得都要啦就是說讓民眾可以有這個比較好的認知願意接受另外一方面就是去排除他的那個障礙跟門檻那我想今天為什麼很具體的在這個法案裡面就是希望可以"},{"start":319.043,"end":321.565,"text":"把這個經費放進來因為我想這個很多團體在第一線推他們的確發現民眾覺得說我很願意簽但是你還要我自己這套腰包再多花3500塊我要花時間然後我要花錢才能完成這個程序我覺得他的確是增加了他的困難度了"},{"start":337.139,"end":354.083,"text":"所以這個部分呢這次才會有修法希望說在預算的部分是不是政府的力量可以就像宣導你今天去宣導也是政府的力量協助來宣導那今天要民眾再次多出這個錢我覺得政府相對也是有這個責任如果我們要去推動的話應該可以就是"},{"start":357.263,"end":373.382,"text":"多增加這個補助的項目那當然你們原本有對外說2026年要全民免費你知不知道這件事媒體上面有報導原本衛福部是有打算2026年是要全民免費的"},{"start":374.463,"end":397.241,"text":"那當時你們這樣的一個目標跟方向其實對於整體的推動是很好的一個方向但是後來為什麼又縮回來了你們現在限縮到五月開始你們只有65歲以上的重大傷病跟65歲以上的多重慢性病就是原本你們其實是有一個很大的目標跟理想就是說就推動全民免費為什麼後來這個政策又縮回來"},{"start":404.231,"end":423.948,"text":"我想可能觀念上也不是錢免免費,而是說其實如果能夠早一點立下一些衣族其實未來在做默契的時候,選擇好的對象真的可以節省醫療費用這節省的醫療費用可能遠大於你這個諮商的費用"},{"start":425.349,"end":451.297,"text":"所以這種健康投資是值得來評估但是在可能我想國家的財源一定或者健保的財源有限那什麼才是排比較重要的大家可以來討論大家可以討論譬如說剛剛說剛剛時事處長有提什麼藥品都想進來想提高價錢我們的健保就是這樣子今年已經是最大的大家的努力是像多了700多億"},{"start":455.498,"end":480.423,"text":"可能還是要很多很多的要努力的空間所以進來他對財務的衝擊是怎麼樣這個的確是我們用開放的胸心用關懷的心那這一部分我可以拜託部長你們回去再研議一下你們現在是開放到65歲但是事實上這個重大傷病就是說你為什麼要用一個年紀來限制這個重大傷病"},{"start":481.423,"end":510.452,"text":"可不可以就是以重大傷病或多重慢性病為前提你們去估算一下這樣的人口大概有多少如果你沒有辦法一步到位就是你任何年齡來你完全都免費但是至少我覺得當人開始生病的時候這個問題跟他就是越接近也越需要那你們可不可以再去估另外一部分的經費就是說只要他領有重大傷病卡或是多重慢性病他就可以因為他已經在這個健保體系"},{"start":511.192,"end":532.572,"text":"如果他有意願你們就可以補助這部分會多花你們多少錢因為事實上你們現在所設定的一年健保支出3.6億不是一個非常大筆的數額那你如果再擴大一點的話你的總經費會增加多少我是覺得這部分的經費坦白講不是在你所有的健保預算裡面他真的不是最大筆"},{"start":536.834,"end":561.723,"text":"我看署長其實也很用力在推動這一點我要肯定那你自己有沒有估算過這個都經過精算其實65歲我們先講重大傷病重大傷病大概是100萬人那麼這個65歲以上大概是50萬那麼底下這個65歲以上多重慢性病這邊大概在100多130萬左右所以兩個合起來是180萬"},{"start":563.203,"end":583.41,"text":"所以光是180萬的人全部做一個人3000塊的話是54億啦那所以我們只是想說因為也不會一下子全部的180萬一年通通做完不可能所以我們才說那這樣我們健保應該還可以支撐這樣的費用那當然如果做的多了我們再爭取預算那也不要"},{"start":584.41,"end":592.899,"text":"這個影響到整個健保的財務所以我們大概是這樣的方式先擴大到這個65歲以上的重大傷病跟多重慢性病這個涵蓋的範圍是180萬人"},{"start":597.089,"end":622.594,"text":"因為其實這我們跟健保署有討論過就現況而言的宣導策略然後簽署的高峰會在60歲以上然後所以才會是說錢用在刀口上然後至於是說一些宣導策略如果有做一些改善的話其實擴大的這部分我們兩邊會密切的合作還有長照是這邊會一起以上你剛說的是60對不對 你現在設定65有沒有可能放寬到60"},{"start":624.433,"end":638.849,"text":"我們先執行一步我想我們後面還會進入到主條我拜託衛福部一件事就是你去精算一下你的版本你現在65 60跟50你就提供這三種版本到底在你的健保經費裡面"},{"start":640.01,"end":660.778,"text":"可能要多少因為我也可以理解很多東西可能很難一步到位但是如果在你們現行要擴大的可以再更擴大的話我覺得這個因為你們剛剛已經講了事實上這件事情一方面是保障病人本身一方面對你整個健保剛剛部長也有講如果越多人去預例這樣子的一個"},{"start":662.56,"end":687.377,"text":"的這個去預列這個醫療的這個確認的話那事實上未來再節省你的健保支出那個其實是會有一個反饋機制你知道嗎你簽越多事實上你未來要支付的可能就是越少因為你一些無效醫療他會提前去終止所以你應該用一個比較大的水庫的概念來看待這件事而不是只有看說我現在要多支出3.6億10億你應該去精算每一個有簽署的你將來節省的醫療的"},{"start":693.04,"end":707.848,"text":"無效的醫療支出可能會有多少你這樣算下來之後你就知道說它反而這邊越增加不是越增加你的健保支出而可能是越節省未來整個醫療的無效支出我覺得你們要有這樣的概念來看待這件事情"},{"start":708.416,"end":736.003,"text":"所以我想這是很重要也是一直我們在研議的方向但是我剛剛有報告過其實簽了ADE以後到最後的話大概有七成是吻合的那是早期喔後來慢慢的吻合率比較低為什麼後來做ACP的過程比較變成比較不像引擎所以品質也很重要因為品質之後你才能夠復活到最後真的是在做的時候"},{"start":736.724,"end":753.318,"text":"跟當時簽AD是吻合的 不然的話幹嘛當時簽AD變成生命教育而已啊所以我們不但要有生命教育 還要有真的能夠協助在他真正到末期的時候有一個很好的 合乎他的治療方向這個我同意啊 所以這個也是財務方面的部分我們來好啊 我希望你們提出一個財務評估的報告那另外一個"},{"start":760.984,"end":788.523,"text":"這個就是說要不要開放其他機構可以進來做這個諮商你們反對你們在報告裡面就是反對那我也看到醫師公會幾大團體他們其實也是反對但是這件事情我是覺得有討論的空間就是說如果他們做到等同的水準我們應該不是從各團體它的出發點而是從一個病人他可以得到服務如果他可以得到同品質的諮商的"},{"start":789.203,"end":806.637,"text":"這樣的一個品質那是不是可以去要求就是說你可以要求那些其他想參與的這些專業團體你要達到我這樣的要求就是你這個諮商過程你要達到我的標準而不是一開始就去否決掉說不行啊你們通通不能進來我覺得這件事情剛剛部長你在講說是開放的態度嘛在這件事情的討論我是蠻希望你也是秉持一個比較開放的態度"},{"start":813.702,"end":833.71,"text":"態度而不是一開始就直接否決了應該是可以有討論的空間這個可不可以再演繹因為討論法條還有時間你們回去再想想看好不好那個意思是要不要回應一下簡單回應一下就是說現在講的執行場域其實我們覺得病人在哪裡這件事情會是比較重要"},{"start":834.17,"end":860.829,"text":"所以我们才会觉得是说以现阶段直接的是说要修法改扩大场域这件事情不如是说我们回过头来在我们目前设定的target这边在执行的过程当中有没有什么可以去做调整的我们目前的方向上面会是这样为什么因为在做资商的过程当中我必须对医疗接触措施对这个疾病的预后要有很清楚的描述那个资商的跨体才会好"},{"start":861.509,"end":886.183,"text":"那現階段的大家的各自的專業其實是因為太鑽了所以對HORZONTO這一塊怎麼樣去講的醫療接觸措施對羈絆與喉其實我們會覺得是說這個地方還需要一些共識這樣子的話才會有好的品質所以部長其實有特別講的是說現階段其實需要凝聚更多的共識 以上好 那如果是這樣子的話我覺得你們該去研議因為像護理機構跟長照機構其實會有蠻多是"},{"start":889.305,"end":905.189,"text":"他可能要育立一組這樣的一個病人而且他本身其實也有醫事人員所以像這一個或許就是你們第一步可以優先去考量的就是說跟醫療更接近的更相近的他不見得都是在醫院這些人都是在護理之家他可能就在長照機構裡面那你這個就不開放嗎你還要他回到那個診所嗎或者是回到醫院才可以去做這樣的一個"},{"start":915.913,"end":927.866,"text":"智商嗎我覺得剛剛市長講一句話很好病人在哪裡你就應該是以這個為前提吧對不對所以這一塊我覺得是有討論空間部長你怎麼表示一下"},{"start":928.735,"end":951.884,"text":"我想以病人為中心是我們的目標但是我剛剛有報告過如果在品質上面或者他討論的內容AD討論的內容需要怎麼樣的專業人員當時會有一個諮商為什麼需要那些人其實是有原因的那這樣的品質如果能夠維護品質那當然我們以病人為中心"},{"start":953.353,"end":974.082,"text":"來調整我們就可以來討論了好我希望是以病人為中心而不是說團體之間各有成見說什麼團體不行那最後一個問題我問你就是說最近有一個有民間有醫師他們做一個調查就是說86%的民眾支持自主善中然後他們"},{"start":975.973,"end":1004.74,"text":"就是提出來是一個PAD那衛福部你們對於他這樣子的一個調查跟他們的倡議你們的立場是什麼就是說他們的進一步是說醫師他可以給藥但是病人呢決定自己要不要服藥就是說醫師協助死亡就是台大公衛研究他們做出來的這一塊在台灣有討論空間嗎還是這只是民間的倡議衛福部怎麼看待這件事情"},{"start":1004.98,"end":1011.084,"text":"好的 我們一切要以專業跟人性的關懷來看這件事情"},{"start":1012.833,"end":1037.502,"text":"支持自主善終這應該是要百分之百吧大家也要善終能夠自主性的那我們怎麼樣真正讓他有自主性怎麼樣讓他善終才是重要的事情那我只提醒一點就是說當澳洲在提倡所謂的讓他縮短生命的一個措施"},{"start":1039.064,"end":1044.501,"text":"來減少他痛苦這件事情我不想把它講成安樂死其實就是這種味道"},{"start":1045.831,"end":1070.003,"text":"這麼叫NERS就是Intention因為他太痛苦了所以你想要把他縮短生命所以澳洲馬上宣布就是說如果今天社會關注這個議題首先你應該去看看末期病人你是不是都把他照顧好了讓他不痛了讓他不要那麼辛苦讓他不要覺得他是家人的累贅讓家屬也可以安心的來照顧病人"},{"start":1071.043,"end":1087.789,"text":"如果你這樣的話他要珍惜每一天的生命啊怎麼會去想要去縮短生命所以他們說應該要先去推安寧環的醫療如果你把安寧環某幾病人的安寧環的醫療照顧好的話推得好的話不是沒有發生安樂死這個爭議就變成比較個案事件"},{"start":1088.709,"end":1106.751,"text":"所以我們台灣如果真的推自主三中的時候,還有一個很重要的工作,你有沒有把安寧反而醫療,把病人照顧好。如果把病人照顧好的話,我們再來談下一個沒辦法解決的時候,我們是不是有更加能夠讓他自主,我們再來談。"},{"start":1107.992,"end":1122.456,"text":"好 那所以回到我們的病主法我們真的 因為已經通過了法律我們就應該要好好的施行 好好的落實那我們的重點應該先擺在這邊所以希望這個部長你們回去再好好研議今天委員提出非常多的議題"},{"start":1124.557,"end":1144.006,"text":"就是不要像你們今天的報告好像鐵板一塊每一橋都不可以每一橋都是緩疫我覺得可以你剛剛講一句話很好你是開放的那我們就用開放的態度大家好好的來研議以病人最好的為原則以病人為中心我們看這個法可以怎麼樣修得更好好不好好的好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":291,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時13分）好，謝謝召委今天安排這個很重要的病主法條文修正草案。病主法在2019年1月正式實施之後，是亞洲第一部以病人為主體、提供完整制度的法案，一方面尊重醫療自主，一方面也保障善終權益，在整個亞洲地區來講，臺灣是走在前面，所以我們的確應該好好來推動。","本法施行6年下來，出現了一些狀況跟問題，當時立意非常良善的法案，在上路之後，事實上，整個預立醫療簽署率其實並不高，以我們成人比例來算，預立醫療簽署累計人數大概只占0.5%，代表經過這6年時間，是應該回過頭來檢討有哪些地方可以好好改變。當時推動這部法案非常用力的楊玉欣委員，雖然現在已經離開立法院，但是他很關注這個法後續的實施，基本上，我跟劉建國委員都有跟他保持互動，經過討論之後，我們提出了這樣一個修法版本，當中很重要的幾個點如下：","第一，當然就是醫療費用的部分。因為相關醫療費用自己要負擔2,000到3,500元，很多人可能礙於費用，而沒有辦法做這個預立醫療的簽署，所以費用的部分，本席認為政府應該適時支應，當然我們是希望由健保來支應，這是這次修法的一個很大重點。","第二，目前可以進行預立醫療照護諮商的單位，除了原來醫療機構裡的區域醫院和診所外，我們認為是不是應該開放一樣很專業的團體，包括護理機構、長照機構、心理治療所、心理諮商所，還有社工事務所等，也都可以參與，主要是因為現在等待的時間比較長，醫院能提供的量能其實比較低，所以希望這個部分也可以開放。","第三，實施病主法，要如何真正落實原來病人的意願，關係人不可以再去妨礙醫師執行？這個我們在第四條提出修正。","另外，病主法第十四條原來就有規定不讓執行的醫療機構或醫師去擔負刑事、行政責任，現在再增加民事責任。","這一次委員們提出這樣的修法，就是希望這個亞洲第一的病主法可以真正落實，符合我們原來所希望的讓病人自主，而且可以善終的這樣一個目標。謝謝召委給我提案說明的時間。","接下來我要請教部長，我們針對幾個議題好好來討論。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：第一個我想請教部長的是，就你剛剛的發言，我發現你也是非常支持善終醫療這樣的方向，但是病主法實施到現在，可以看到它的施行率的確不高，所以就衛福部部長的角度，我第一個要問你的是，你滿意現在這個預立醫療的人數嗎？你是不是覺得它應該還有成長的空間？"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然希望人數可以成長，因為各個醫院以前都要準備團隊在那邊準備服務，所以量能其實是有，但就是民眾有沒有意願，這個真的……剛剛也有委員提到怎麼樣做生命的教育、加強生命的教育，讓大家能夠注重這個，他自然就覺得去簽是有意義的，這個也是驅動的原力，可能也不完全是經費的問題，當然經費的確也是一個原因，但是如果生命教育夠，讓大家知道這是重要的，我相信這是更大的驅動力。"],["王委員育敏：我是覺得都要，要讓民眾可以有比較好的認知願意接受，另外一方面就是去排除他的障礙跟門檻。我今天為什麼要很具體地在這個法案裡面……就是希望可以把這個經費放進來，因為我想很多團體在第一線推，他們的確發現民眾覺得，我很願意簽，但是你還要我自掏腰包再多花3,500塊，我要花時間，然後我要花錢才能完成這個程序，我覺得這的確是增加了他的困難度，所以這次對這個部分才會修法，希望在預算的部分是不是可以用政府的力量來做。就像宣導，你今天去宣導也是政府的力量在協助宣導，今天要民眾再多出這個錢，我覺得政府相對也是有這個責任，如果我們要去推動的話，應該可以多增加這個補助的項目。","當然你們原本有對外說，2026年要全民免費，你知不知道有這件事？媒體上面有報導，原本衛福部有打算2026年要全民免費的，當時你們這樣的一個目標跟方向，對於整體的推動是個很好的方向，但是為什麼後來又縮回來了？你們現在是限縮到5月開始，你們只限65歲以上的重大傷病，跟65歲以上的多重慢性病。原本你們其實是有一個很大的目標跟理想，就是推動全民免費，為什麼後來這個政策又縮回來了？"],["邱部長泰源：我想可能在觀念上也不是全民免費，而是如果能夠早一點立下一些醫囑，未來在默許的時候，選擇好的對象真的可以節省醫療費用，而節省的醫療費用可能遠大於諮商的費用。"],["王委員育敏：是啊！"],["邱部長泰源：所以這種健康投資是值得評估的，但是可能……我想國家的財源或是健保的財源有限，怎麼去排比較重要的，大家可以討論，譬如剛剛石署長也有提到，什麼藥品都想進來，而且還要提高價錢，但我們的健保就是這樣子，今年已經是最大的，在大家的努力之下多了七百多億，還是沒有辦法，可能還是有很多很多要努力的空間，所以進來後對財務的衝擊是怎麼樣，我們的確要用開放的胸襟、用關懷的心來處理這件事。"],["王委員育敏：這部分我可不可以拜託部長，你們回去再研議一下？你們現在是開放到65歲，但是事實上這個重大傷病……你為什麼要用年紀來限制這個重大傷病？可不可以用重大傷病或多重慢性病為前提，你們去估算一下這樣的人口大概有多少？如果你沒有辦法一步到位，就是任何年齡來，完全都免費，但是至少我覺得當人開始生病的時候，這個問題跟他就愈接近也愈需要。你們可不可以再去估另外一部分的經費，只要他領有重大傷病卡，或是有多重慢性病，他就可以……因為他已經在這個健保體系，如果他有意願，你們就可以補助，這部分會多花你們多少錢？","事實上你們現在所設定的，一年健保的支出是3.6億，不是一個非常大筆的數額，你如果再擴大一點的話，你的總經費會增加多少？我是覺得這部分的經費在你所有的健保預算裡面，坦白講，它真的不是最大筆的。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，可不可以請署長回應一下？"],["王委員育敏：我看署長其實也很用力在推動，這一點我要肯定，但你可不可以……你自己有沒有估算過？"],["石署長崇良：有，這個都經過精算了，其實65歲的部分，我們先講重大傷病，重大傷病大概有100萬人，65歲以上大概是50萬，底下這個65歲以上多重慢性病，這邊大概在130萬左右，所以兩個合起來就是180萬。光是180萬的人全部做，1個人3,000塊的話就是54億。我們只是想，這也不是一下子就把全部的180萬人在一年內通通做完。"],["王委員育敏：不會。"],["石署長崇良：不可能！所以我們才說，我們的健保應該還可以支撐這樣的費用。當然，如果做得多了，我們再爭取預算，也不要影響到整個健保的財務，所以我們大概是以這樣的方式，先擴大到65歲以上的重大傷病跟多重慢性病，這邊涵蓋的範圍是180萬人。"],["劉司長越萍：我要補充一下。"],["王委員育敏：好，司長。"],["劉司長越萍：我們其實有跟健保署有討論過，就現況而言的宣導策略，簽署的高峰會在60歲以上，所以才會說要把錢用在刀口上，至於一些宣導策略如果有做一些改善的話，其實擴大的部分，我們兩邊會密切地合作，還有長照司也會一起。以上。"],["王委員育敏：好，你剛剛說的是60歲，對不對？那你現在怎麼會設定65歲？"],["石署長崇良：是65歲。"],["王委員育敏：有沒有可能放寬到60歲？"],["石署長崇良：我們先執行一部分……"],["王委員育敏：我想這個部分，後面還會進入逐條，我拜託衛福部一件事情，你去精算一下你的版本，好不好？你現在是65歲，然後是60歲跟50歲，你就提供這三種版本，到底在你的健保經費裡面可能要多少？我也可以理解，很多東西可能很難一步到位，但是如果在你們現行要擴大的可以再更擴大的話，我覺得……因為你們剛剛已經講了，事實上這件事情一方面是保障病人本身，一方面對你整個健保，剛剛部長也有講，如果愈多人去預立醫療同意書的話，事實上未來就是在節省你的健保支出，那個其實是會有反饋機制的，你知道嗎？你簽愈多，事實上你未來要支付的可能就是愈少，因為一些無效醫療會提前終止，所以你應該要用一個比較大水庫的概念去看待這件事，而不是只看現在要多支出3.6億、10億。你應該去精算每一個有簽署的，將來會節省的無效醫療支出可能會有多少，這樣算下來之後就會知道，反而是這邊愈增加，並不會愈增加你的健保支出，反而是愈節省未來整個醫療的無效支出，我覺得你們要有這樣的概念去看待這件事情。"],["邱部長泰源：委員，我想這是很重要，也是我們一直在研議的方向。"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["邱部長泰源：但是我剛剛有報告過，其實簽了AD以後，到最後大概有七成是吻合的，那是指早期，後來慢慢地吻合率就比較低了，為什麼？因為後來做ACP的過程變成比較沒那麼嚴謹，所以品質也很重要。"],["王委員育敏：對啊！"],["邱部長泰源：有品質之後，才能符合最後真的在做的時候，跟當時簽的AD是吻合的，不然當時簽的AD就變成是生命教育而已啊！"],["王委員育敏：對。"],["邱部長泰源：所以我們不但要有生命教育，還要真的能夠協助在他到末期的時候，真的能有一個很好的、合乎他的治療方向。"],["王委員育敏：這個我同意，所以這個過程也是你們要去檢討的。"],["邱部長泰源：財務方面的預算我們來逐步評估。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望你們提出一個財務評估的報告。另外一個是，要不要開放其他機構可以進來做諮商？你們在報告裡面反對，我也看到醫師公會等幾大團體，他們其實是反對的，但是對於這件事情，我是覺得有討論的空間。也就是說，如果他們能做到等同的水準，我們應該不是從各團體的出發點，而要從一個病人可以得到的服務來看。如果他可以得到相同的諮商品質，是不是就可以去要求那些其他想參與的這些專業團體也要達到我這樣的要求？也就是你的諮商過程要達到我的標準，而不是一開始就去否決掉，認為不行，你們通通都不能進來。我覺得這件事情，剛剛部長已經講了，要採開放的態度，對於這件事情的討論，我也滿希望你也能秉持一個比較開放的態度，而不是一開始就直接否決，應該是可以有討論的空間。這個可不可以再研議？因為討論法條還有時間，你們回去再想想看，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：醫事司要不要回應一下你的意見？"],["王委員育敏：來，司長。"],["劉司長越萍：簡單回應一下，現在講的執行場域，其實我們覺得病人在哪裡這件事情會是比較重要的，所以我們才會覺得以現階段說要直接修法擴大場域這件事，不如說我們回過頭來在我們目前設定的target這邊，在執行的過程當中有沒有什麼可以調整的，我們目前的方向會是這樣，為什麼？因為在做諮商的過程當中，必須對醫療介入措施、對疾病的預後要有很清楚的描述，那個諮商的quality才會好。現階段大家各自的專業其實是因為太鑽了，所以對horizontal這一塊講的醫療介入措施、對疾病的預後，我們會覺得這個地方還需要一些共識，這樣子的話才會有好的品質，所以部長有特別講到現階段需要凝聚更多的共識。以上。"],["王委員育敏：好。如果是這樣子的話，我覺得你們該去研議，因為像護理機構及長照機構其實會有滿多是可能要預立醫囑的病人，而且它本身也有醫事人員，所以像這個或許就是你們第一步可以優先去考量的，就是跟醫療更接近的、更相近的，因為這些人不見得都是在醫院，而是在護理之家或長照機構裡面，你們這個部分就不開放嗎？還要他們回到診所嗎？或者是回到醫院才可以做這樣的諮商嗎？我覺得剛剛司長講一句話很好，就是病人在哪裡，你們就應該以這個為前提吧，對不對？所以這一塊我覺得有討論空間。部長，你表示一下。"],["邱部長泰源：以病人為中心是我們的目標，但是我剛剛有報告過，如果在品質上面，或者討論的內容、AD討論的內容需要怎麼樣的專業人員……諮商當時為什麼需要那些人其實是有原因的。"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["邱部長泰源：如果能夠維護品質，以病人為中心來調整都可以討論。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望是以病人為中心，而不是團體之間各有成見，說什麼團體不行。","最後一個問題，最近民間的醫師做了一個調查，有86%的民眾支持自主善終，據此他們提出PAD，衛福部對於這樣的調查及倡議，你們的立場是什麼？他們進一步的倡議是醫師可以給藥，但是由病人自己決定要不要服藥，就是醫師協助死亡，這是臺大公衛做出來的研究。這一塊在臺灣有討論空間嗎？還是這只是民間的倡議？衛福部怎麼看待這件事情？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一切要以專業及人性的關懷來看這件事情，支持自主善終應該是要百分之百吧。大家都想要善終、能夠自主性的，我們怎麼樣真正讓他有自主性、讓他善終才是重要的事情。我只提醒一點，當澳洲在提倡所謂縮短生命的措施來減少病人的痛苦這件事情，我不想把它講成安樂死，但其實就是這種味道。什麼叫安樂死？就是intention，因為他太痛苦了，所以想要縮短生命。澳洲馬上宣布如果今天社會關注這個議題，首先應該去看看是不是把末期病人照顧好了，讓他不痛了，讓他不要那麼辛苦，讓他不要覺得是家人的累贅，讓家屬也可以安心地照顧病人，如果這樣的話，他要珍惜每一天的生命，怎麼會想要縮短生命？所以他們認為應該要先推動安寧緩和醫療，如果把末期病人的安寧緩和醫療推得好的話，不是沒有發生安樂死這個爭議，就變成比較個案事件。所以我們臺灣如果真的推自主善終的時候，還有一個很重要的工作，就是有沒有把安寧緩和醫療的病人照顧好？如果把病人照顧好的話，我們再來談下一個……沒辦法解決的時候，是不是有更加能夠讓他自主……那個我們再來談。"],["王委員育敏：好。回到病主法，已經通過了法律，我們就應該好好地施行、好好地落實，我們的重點應該先擺在這邊，所以希望部長你們回去再好好研議。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["王委員育敏：今天委員提出非常多議題，就是希望不要像你們今天的報告好像鐵板一塊，每一條都不可以，每一條都是緩議。我覺得你剛剛講一句話很好，你是開放的，我們就用開放的態度，大家好好地研議，以病人最好為原則，以病人為中心，我們看這個法可以怎麼樣修得更好，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","莊瑞雄","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳培瑜","楊曜","陳瑩","涂權吉","陳菁徽"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；二、委員劉建國等\n16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利\n法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00007"}}},{"id":"160859","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160859","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc04aae75f4ce9035954de01e9c6ce952975d77c67688655a426a2d8103b2bcc79e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:14:46 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那我現在請教你喔這個是美國川普總統他所說的他在29號的時候宣布喔未來美國的汽車進口的關稅它不會是一個over all它會是一個over all而不是分別的就是說不會對對那個汽車製造商課20%的進口關稅或者是加上25%的這個鋼鋁的關稅我想要請問因為這個"},{"start":116.034,"end":129.28,"text":"变化的过程太快了那到底是怎么样子那你是不是能说明清楚这是你的问题而且这对于台湾汽车零组件产业的影响是什么是好还是不好"},{"start":130.516,"end":147.277,"text":"報告委員我想對於這個關稅到現在我們都還在進行中那美國總統的這樣的改變其實我們認為說到目前為止大家可能都已經習慣了就是說到最後排版為止可能都有變化"},{"start":148.098,"end":165.139,"text":"那對我們台灣來講我們有做過幾個simulation我們有做過幾個這個所謂狀況的判斷那以目前來講因為我們台灣做這個汽車零組件我們分成兩種但是台灣比較強的其實在aftermarket"},{"start":165.76,"end":180.752,"text":"其實比較強是在Aftermarket所以這一個部分美國他現在要求說把這個零組件這個供應鏈可以再調降這個是他碰到的就是說這樣子的話反而在美國製造的汽車"},{"start":182.593,"end":203.391,"text":"會比在美國以外的汽車要貴對那變成說這個美國的消費者來講的話他們可能也不太能夠接受所以這個大概因為這樣子然後這個美國的汽車公司還有美國汽車領土建的公司他們可能也會去Lobby這個跟美國的政府來Lobby談這些事情"},{"start":204.252,"end":231.08,"text":"所以我想这个最后会造成什么样的影响我们还要静观其变不过对台湾的厂商来讲台湾大部分都是在Aftermarket所以在Aftermarket台湾有非常高的优势那我也去访谈过我们也座谈过非常多台湾的汽车零组件的厂商他们来讲说只要他们遇到的关税是立足点是平的"},{"start":231.92,"end":243.942,"text":"是大家一樣的他們永遠不會擔心但是如果說給別其他的國家那比較低的關稅那台灣是比較高的關稅這樣子對他們來講傷害就比較大"},{"start":244.568,"end":262.502,"text":"但是那你講到重點了現在我們看到了好像亞洲第一個國家要跟就是美國要談結果的可能是印度了那日韓都也在談判的這個過程當中了那我想要請問我們對跟美國這個關稅的談判什麼時候已經最終我們會不會調降"},{"start":270.816,"end":286.848,"text":"我們跟美國的談判是在進行中所以我們不會是最後談判的那個群裡面的人我們一定是領先群的談判群裡面的人"},{"start":287.25,"end":290.291,"text":"對我們來講我們在日韓之後談我們認為應該也有優勢別人談判的結果我們都可以去推論作為我們爭取對我們最有利的關稅來作為參考"},{"start":308.957,"end":337.514,"text":"就如同你所說的你知道說我們不能夠比其他國家的關稅還要高嗎但是我們有不同的產業有不同就是說competitive的就是競爭的國家那在這個情況下你怎麼樣子就是說我們怎麼樣子能夠說每一個我們都兼顧到那這個部分你怎麼處理以及我們看到了現在目前當然"},{"start":338.354,"end":357.676,"text":"美國不是唯一的市場啦對於台灣的這樣子的一個汽車領主權身為我國的經濟部長你怎麼樣子協助啊怎麼樣子協助產業啊怎麼樣子給予他們政策上的幫助啊讓他們可以走出去啊是不是是"},{"start":359.077,"end":386.682,"text":"報告委員我們現在採取的方式是第一個當碰到這個關稅實際碰到的這些衝擊的大概我們盤點出來有六個傳統產業我們現在第一步是針對這六個傳統產業增加它的競爭力然後降低它的作業成本我們透過AI的這個教導跟做EXCO來協助它降低成本這是我們目前在做的"},{"start":387.486,"end":408.736,"text":"第二個階段6月以後當美國這個豁免90天開始要結束的時候我們希望能夠幫助這些廠商移轉他的這個訂單能夠從新的這個市場包括歐洲的市場包括這個靠近歐洲的中東的這個市場"},{"start":410.217,"end":439.57,"text":"這就是我們在考慮印度的市場我們是幫助他們能夠在市場上面能夠讓大家看得到所以我們的貿易署就開始準備了我們這個貿易署編的特別預算有100億有100億是幫助這個業者在國外取得新的訂單那這個新的訂單的話就像我在座談我一直講我們在新的訂單我們會用一個品牌的名字叫做台灣台灣Cellet"},{"start":440.27,"end":464.931,"text":"透過台灣Seller這樣一個品牌把這個訂單帶回來以後交給我們經濟部所屬的20個機構由這20個機構來協助他們輔導的這個中小微企業下去製造這樣子那這個可以去中心化我相信在我們的輔導之下它的成本可以降然後我們又直接拿訂單那這樣子對他們來講更有競爭力"},{"start":468.117,"end":468.499,"text":"好謝謝謝謝瑋瑜"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":415,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時14分）謝謝主席，我想要請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：郭部長，我認同你剛才說的，行政單位是合法合規，你已經是行政單位的郭部長，不過剛才呂委員的題目很好，但這不是你的題目嘛！現在你又不是行政院長，你怎麼回答，是不是？你是行政院長了嗎？現在。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這一部分可能是我急了一點，我不是行政院長，所以我剛才在講我沒有辦法替代行政院長回答這個問題，後面我有講。我是說我經濟部的問題我可以回答，我現在的工作是經濟部部長，所以我回答經濟部的問題，但委員剛才垂詢的是行政院長的事情。我只是說我們接到的指令，不是只有看目前的狀況，而必須要考慮到未來可能造成第二波影響或者第三波的影響，我是就這樣來說明，並沒有替代院長回答這個問題，我在這個地方再澄清，我不會逾越我的職責。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，那我現在請教你，這個是美國川普總統所說的，他在29號宣布，未來美國汽車進口的關稅，它會是overall而不是分別的，就是不會對汽車製造商課20%進口關稅，或者加上25%鋼鋁關稅。我想請問，因為這個變化的過程太快了，那到底是怎麼樣，你是不是能說明清楚？這是你的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：而且這對於臺灣汽車零組件產業的影響是什麼，是好還是不好？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想對於這個關稅，到現在我們還都還在進行中。美國總統這樣的改變，其實我們認為到目前為止，大家可能都已經習慣了，就是到最後拍板為止可能都有變化。對我們臺灣來講，我們有做過幾個simulation，我們也做過幾個狀況的判斷。以目前來講，因為臺灣做汽車零組件我們分兩種，但是臺灣比較強的其實在aftermarket。所以這個部分，美國現在要求把零組件這個供應鏈可以再調降，這個是他碰到的，就是這樣子反而在美國製造的汽車會比在美國以外的汽車要貴。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對。"],["郭部長智輝：變成對美國的消費者來講，他們可能也不太能夠接受。因為這樣子，美國汽車公司還有美國汽車零組件的公司，他們可能也會跟美國政府lobby、談這些事情。這個最後會造成什麼樣的影響，我們還要靜觀其變，不過對臺灣廠商來講，臺灣大部分都是在aftermarket，在aftermarket臺灣有非常高的優勢。我去訪談過，我們也座談過，跟非常多臺灣的汽車零組件廠商，他們說只要遇到的關稅之立足點是平的、大家一樣的，他們永遠不會擔心；但如果給其他國家比較低的關稅，臺灣比較高的關稅，這樣子對他們來講傷害就比較大。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你講到重點，現在我們看到好像亞洲第一個國家，就是美國要談結果……可能是印度了；日韓也都在談判過程當中。我想要請問，我們跟美國的關稅談判是什麼時候，以及最終我們會不會調降？"],["郭部長智輝：我們跟美國的談判是在進行中，所以我們不會是最後談判的那一群裡面，我們一定是在領先談判群裡面的。對我們來講，我們在所謂日韓之後談，我們認為應該也都有優勢，別人談判的結果，我想我們都可以去推論，作為爭取對我們最有利關稅的參考。"],["謝委員衣鳯：就如同你所說的，你知道我們不能夠比其他國家的關稅還要高，但是我們有不同的產業，有competitive的競爭國家，在這個情況下，我們怎麼樣能夠每一個都兼顧到，這個部分你怎麼處理？以及我們看到目前，當然美國不是唯一的市場，對於臺灣的汽車零組件，身為我國的經濟部長，你怎麼樣協助產業、怎麼樣給予他們政策上的幫助，讓他們可以走出去，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我們現在採取的方式是，第一個，碰到關稅的實際衝擊，大概我們盤點出來有6個傳統產業，現在第一步是針對這6個傳統產業增加他的競爭力，降低他的作業成本，我們透過AI教導跟做ESCO協助他降低成本，這是我們目前在做的。","第二個階段，6月以後，當美國的豁免90天結束的時候，我們希望能夠幫助這些廠商移轉他的訂單，能夠到新市場，包括歐洲市場，包括靠近歐洲的中東市場，這個就是我們在考慮的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那現在進行得怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：然後印度的市場，我們是幫助他們……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道。"],["郭部長智輝：在市場上面能夠讓大家看得到。所以我們貿易署就開始準備了，貿易署編的特別預算有100億，是幫助業者在國外取得新的訂單。就像我在座談都一直講，這些新的訂單我們會用一個品牌的名字，叫做「Taiwan Select」，就是透過這樣一個品牌，把訂單帶回來以後，交給我們經濟部所屬的20個機構，由這20個機構協助他們輔導的中小微企業下去製造，這可以去中心化。我相信在我們的輔導之下他的成本可以降，然後我們又直接拿訂單，這樣子對他們來講更有競爭力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：現在休息。","休息（10時22分）","繼續開會（10時27分）"],["主席（謝委員衣鳯）：休息結束。","我們現在請蔡易餘做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","邱志偉","賴瑞隆","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","羅廷瑋","林岱樺"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員魯明哲等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第十三條條文修正草案」案；二、本\n院委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第十三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144501_00005"}}},{"id":"160858","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160858","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc08d2f7f2c033172284de01e9c6ce952975d77c67688655a429f750fbe189a9eba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:02:49 - 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请郭部长您好 部长"},{"start":20.579,"end":45.019,"text":"这个会议从一开始到现在我们针对美国对等关税这个议题都一直是我们立法院这个询答里面最聚焦的一个焦点最重要就是因为美国对我们经济体系的合作关系它的漠视而且对我们提高了整个关税的问题那我们朝野不分党派一定也会做我们"},{"start":45.478,"end":64.577,"text":"这个整个产业的依靠来协助他们度过这个难关所以在4月4号的时候我们提出了880亿这个支持产业这个方案那部长这边也有到地方去跟他们做一个关心请听之旅回来之后的话我们看到我们这次提出来的预算里面"},{"start":65.836,"end":91.066,"text":"這個特別預算裡面有增加50億總共不管是工業還是農業部加起來的話總共是930億這個部分但是整筆預算裡面我們看到了我們這次的特別預算是針對這個對等關稅 這關稅的問題提出特別預算那這次特別預算的話從我們剛剛講到工業跟農業總共才930億但是他的特別預算是4100億"},{"start":94.045,"end":114.602,"text":"所以經過我們預算法的這個83條這個特別預算是經過這個像經濟非常有特別的這個變動變化的情形有的需要的話我們才會提出這個特別預算但是我們看到這一次的4100億的這個特別預算裡面有國土安全的就1500億"},{"start":116.755,"end":136.269,"text":"在這個培養人才就這個170億還有這個整個勞建寶這個300億通通放進去如果這些都有需要的話一般行政的預算就是用追加就好了為什麼要放進去如果說像部長你特別講到的"},{"start":137.578,"end":163.543,"text":"這個我們這個要追加1000億給這台電這個也可以用追加預算不用放到特別預算裡面是不是你整個包裹的話就叫我們要跟你背書囉因為因為報告委員我可以講報告委員是這樣子我想你也很清楚發生這個關稅等等關稅的這個問題以後那我們雖然提出來第二天就提出來一個881億的這樣的一個預算的規模那個是針對"},{"start":166.225,"end":182.244,"text":"這個關稅32%的情況之下造成的面對這個32%關稅的時候我們採取的措施但是我們開始在訪談然後到每一個地方去跟業者座談我們發現比我們想像的"},{"start":184.504,"end":205.959,"text":"第二波造成第二波的影響對產業我們是全力支持的你要加到950億我們都會支持對 報告委員我們的意思就是說產業然後它往外外溢的時候碰到一個新的我們沒有考慮到譬如說為什麼你看裡面有國防有社會安全的會有"},{"start":207.08,"end":229.027,"text":"我們後來發現美國一直加中國的這個關稅加到這個兩百多啦中國他不可能再賣到美國去但是中國那些東西會跑到哪裡去一定往這個亞洲外溢出來嘛外溢出來就會到台灣啊所以這個是我們所擔心的那個衝擊更大"},{"start":230.953,"end":253.54,"text":"那個衝擊非常大所以我們目前我們就是禁止傾銷禁止受到紅色供應鏈進到臺灣洗產地這些都是我們必須要額外再發展一些費用需要防範的部分這個是更可怕的一個錢"},{"start":255.065,"end":267.704,"text":"然後第二個那一天講說直接你們也一直在這個指導我們指教我們說不是只有直接那個蘇美的廠商它的供應鏈廠商的供應鏈"},{"start":269.09,"end":283.411,"text":"所以產業我們都要不管要轉型還是協助他們的設備要更新我們都可以包含進去只要針對產業的我們全力都支持不夠的我們再增加都可以那個是在930億裡面"},{"start":285.454,"end":301.881,"text":"但是他外溢到這個社會上面社會的安全照顧包括健保也算進去啦對 包括為什麼把國土安全也算進去啦是 包括委員因為這個以後啊有一些我們台商在中國的台商他會轉移他生產陣地"},{"start":303.541,"end":314.847,"text":"所以部長你的意思是說民事院統治4100億就是跟這對等關稅有關係而且也跟產業有關係那為什麼4100億我們看到關心產業的不到四分之一是不到四分之一你不能把其他的都包裹進來外溢的效應會比較大外溢的效應非常非常的大包括你要知道我們現在"},{"start":330.154,"end":340.588,"text":"就是像中國來講 譬如說那個啤酒 啤酒會大量傾銷到台灣來那你要協助哪一部份我們要防止它 洗產地嘛那你要協助產業對不對"},{"start":346.414,"end":363.385,"text":"對這個關稅部分呢我們要協助的不是只有對這個關稅這部分我們要造成社會上面的動盪我們現在提的是特別預算必須符合我們預算法的83條因為關稅而引起的這個社會的改變你這些部分都可以用一般預算來追加"},{"start":365.166,"end":379.056,"text":"你要懂得預算法 所有一切都依法嘛不然人家講的依法就是個法啊這有法源依據的部分我們是依法 報告委員所以依法我才告訴你 這法放到這裡83條我知道的情況是這樣的 4100億我們都是用稅計盈餘來做的嘛因為有人要講說"},{"start":391.767,"end":396.264,"text":"有人在講說你最近有這麼多錢嘛那一人都發一萬"},{"start":397.182,"end":407.787,"text":"那是沒有辦法的人才這樣講我們有辦法可以照顧全員因為受到這個官稅的動盪補發一萬塊是全民的你收全民的超收的稅金發給全民是合理的那現在碰到這個對等關稅我們就把這5723億做你的基底來協助產業不要外包其他無相關於產業的部分包產業度過這個危機"},{"start":423.315,"end":444.162,"text":"你要知道那個叫聯誼作用然後他一波一波就要翻譯好一切依法依我們的預算法一般行政部分你就一般行政部分用追加的部分照預算法啊你不能包裹下去就大家跟你背書啊那未來如果影響的第二波第三波的當然"},{"start":444.522,"end":448.104,"text":"有第二波第三波 這就是本席要提醒你的你現在想把他包裹進來的話 未來你看我們跟美國要這個談判這個關稅的問題五月底就要談喔我知道你要講這個問題啦所以我提醒你 那未來你五月底的時候輪到我們跟美國在做這個"},{"start":468.858,"end":476.265,"text":"這個磋商的時候如果美國還是繼續沒有放鬆這32%的關稅我們是不是繼續擴大再變這個預算特別預算報告委員是不是32%你現在就把滿額特別預算做出來了32%美國已經講說它是最高的"},{"start":485.683,"end":492.105,"text":"最高的我們就用32%來推論所以不會超過32%吳業底的磋商他這32%沒有放鬆你要繼續來擴大對美國的這個採購跟投資擴大我們再繼續編特別預算嗎"},{"start":506.957,"end":512.085,"text":"沒有 我們現在所做的就是32%所以你說未來就算他沒有鬆綁那你也不會再繼續擴大來編列我們講過了嘛這個是到110"},{"start":522.01,"end":537.881,"text":"116年的年底嘛好不好所以你說到116年你不再擴大編列特別預算來支援這個對等關稅你說的不是我編預算不是現在你說的嘛我的經濟部不是我不是這個"},{"start":539.002,"end":564.24,"text":"主席長我也不是行政院長欸你不能用這個問題來問我我說針對產業你不能用這個問題問我啦這超過我的權限啦所以我才說你們有需要的特別預算是針對對等關稅問我經濟部的部分問我經濟部的部分我來回答你好不好好 部長那我請問這次的特別預算是不是針對於美國的對等關稅才提出的特別預算我們經濟部就是針對美國對等關稅提出來的預算"},{"start":567.824,"end":576.133,"text":"所以現在4100億裡面都是包含在經濟部產業的需求嗎是需求嗎產業需求所以你認同4100億都是產業的需求很多的想法都是未雨綢繆未雨綢繆就像您在座談會也講說你們不要雨天收傘"},{"start":587.125,"end":607.92,"text":"對不對 對所以照顧那個廠商嘛我們不預先說 類似這個樣子就是說先考慮到可能最差的狀況怎麼樣那我想行政院應該就是按照這樣第一波的影響可能930億但是第二波 第三波 第二波就是社會的影響所以我才說這4100億都要對我們產業的需求"},{"start":611.414,"end":628.34,"text":"提出來因為這個特別預算就是對於關稅的問題才有這特別預算不要無相關的把包裹進來這才是對產業解決他們的困難那個報告委員不是說對關稅一個名目上面的影響而是實質上"},{"start":630.4,"end":658.389,"text":"實質的產業需求嘛所以你才去傾聽聽到有什麼沒有做到的部分我們要再來提出特別的預算再增加所以我們看到你只增加50億而已耶對不對所以其他部分的話都是比較不相關的因為那個時候啊第二天又改成說可以豁免90天嘛10% 90天嘛所以那個情境有不一樣我們是參考每一個階段的情境變異"},{"start":659.489,"end":682.747,"text":"做出來的推論是 因為你次次提出來的說你就用到116年3年的預算所以才特別說你要照預算法83條來編那一般的行政方面的話就用追加不要再這樣子再包括了影響沒有那麼久的話當然我們就不會用那些錢影響沒有那麼久沒有那麼大他就不會用"},{"start":683.648,"end":688.882,"text":"這影響有用到那麼多才才有用到好 希望你們把楊棟花刀口扎好謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":321,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（10時2分）謝謝主席，請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，這個會期從一開始到現在，針對美國對等關稅的議題，都一直是我們立法院詢答裡面聚焦的焦點，最重要的就是因為美國對於整個經濟體系合作關係的漠視，而且對我們還提高了整個關稅的問題，我們朝野不分黨派，一定也會做我們整個產業的依靠，協助他們度過這個難關。所以在4月4號的時候，我們提出了880億支持產業的方案，部長也有到地方去進行表達關心的傾聽之旅，回來之後，我們看到這次提出來的特別預算裡面增加了50億，不管是工業還是農業，加起來是930億，但是在整筆預算裡面我們看到，這次的特別預算是針對對等關稅的問題而提出的。這次的特別預算，我們剛剛有講到，工業跟農業總共才930億，但是行政院提出的特別預算總共是4,100億，依照預算法第八十三條的規定，提出特別預算必須有相當的要件，其中一個就是國家經濟發生重大變故，有需要的話我們會才會提出特別預算。但是我們看到在這次4,100億的特別預算裡面，國土安全的部分就有1,500億，培養人才是170億，還把整個勞健保的300億通通放進去，如果這些都有需要的話，一般行政的預算用追加就好了，為什麼要放進去？如果像部長特別講到的，要追加1,000億給台電，這個也可以用追加預算，不用放到特別預算裡面，是不是？你整個包裹的話，就是要叫我們幫你背書囉？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員是這樣子，我想你也很清楚發生這個對等關稅的問題以後，雖然第二天我們就提出一個880億的預算規模，那是面對關稅32%的時候，我們採取的措施，但是我們開始去訪談，到每一個地方去跟業者座談以後，我們發現比我們想像的……"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道後來有加50億啊！"],["郭部長智輝：造成第二波的影響……"],["呂委員玉玲：對產業我們是全力支持的，你要加到950億，我們都會支持。"],["郭部長智輝：對，報告委員，我們的意思就是產業外溢的時候，碰到一個新的狀況，我們沒有考慮到……"],["呂委員玉玲：各種狀況都有。"],["郭部長智輝：譬如為什麼裡面有國防、有社會安全的費用？我們後來發現美國一直加中國的關稅，加到兩百多%，中國已經不可能再賣到美國去，但是中國那些東西會跑到哪裡去？一定往亞洲外溢出來嘛，外溢出來就會到臺灣，這個是我們所擔心的，那個衝擊更大，那個衝擊會非常大，所以我們目前就是禁止傾銷，禁止紅色供應鏈進到臺灣洗產地，這一些都是我們必須要額外再編列一些費用去防範的部分，這是更可怕的一個錢。第二個，那一天你們也一直在指導我們，說不是只有直接輸美的廠商，廠商的供應鏈也受影響啊！"],["呂委員玉玲：所以說產業我們都要……"],["郭部長智輝：所以才會有社會照顧的……"],["呂委員玉玲：不管要轉型還是協助他們設備更新，都可以包含進去，只要針對產業的，我們都全力支持，不夠的再增加都可以。"],["郭部長智輝：那個是在930億裡面的。"],["呂委員玉玲：是。"],["郭部長智輝：但是它外溢到這個社會上，社會的安全照顧包括……"],["呂委員玉玲：可是你看到健保也算進去啦！"],["郭部長智輝：對，包括為什麼……"],["呂委員玉玲：國土安全也算進去啦！"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，因為以後有一些我們在中國的台商會轉移他的生產陣地，有一部分可能會回到……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以部長你的意思是說你認同這4,100億就是跟對等關稅有關係，而且也跟產業有關係？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["呂委員玉玲：那為什麼4,100億關係到產業的不到四分之一？不到四分之一耶！你不能把其他的都包裹進來。"],["郭部長智輝：那是外溢的效應會比較大，外溢的效應非常非常的大。"],["呂委員玉玲：沒有錯，部長，我要提的就是在特別預算裡面……"],["郭部長智輝：現在就以中國來講，譬如啤酒，啤酒會大量傾銷到臺灣來。"],["呂委員玉玲：那你要協助哪一部分？他傾銷到臺灣，所以要協助哪一部分？你還是要協助產業嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我們要防止他洗產地嘛！"],["呂委員玉玲：那你要協助產業，對不對？對關稅的部分。"],["郭部長智輝：我們要協助的不是只有關稅這一部分，還包括不要造成社會上面的動盪。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，我的意思是我們要協助，但是我們現在提的是特別預算，必須符合預算法第八十三條。"],["郭部長智輝：是，因為關稅而引起的社會的改變。"],["呂委員玉玲：這些部分都可以用一般預算來追加，你要懂得預算法，所有一切都依法嘛！部長，你剛才講的依法就是這個法，這有法源依據。"],["郭部長智輝：我們是依法，報告委員，我這一次的……"],["呂委員玉玲：依法，所以我才告訴你這法在第八十三條。"],["郭部長智輝：我知道的情況是這樣啦，4,100億我們都是用歲計盈餘來做的嘛！"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道就是超收，因為去年超收了5,723億，就可以做你們的基底了啦！"],["郭部長智輝：有人在講說歲計盈餘有這麼多錢嘛，那一人就發一萬，那是沒有辦法的人才這樣講，我們有辦法可以照顧全員，因為受到關稅的動盪……"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，你這樣講是不對的，普發一萬塊是全民的，你超收全民的稅金，發給全民是合理的，現在碰到這個對等關稅，我們就把這5,723億做你的基底來協助產業，不要外包給其他跟產業無關的部分。"],["郭部長智輝：不是無相關。"],["呂委員玉玲：幫產業渡過這個危機。"],["郭部長智輝：它是第二波，你要知道那個叫漣漪作用，一個東西丟下去，然後就一波一波這樣往外溢。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，一切依法，依我們的預算法，一般行政部分就用追加，照預算法啊！你不能包裹下去，叫大家幫你背書啊！"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我們沒有包裹，我們是受這個關稅影響的第二波、第三波的……"],["呂委員玉玲：當然有第二波、第三波，這就是本席要提醒你的，你現在全部包裹進來的話，未來我們要跟美國談判關稅的問題，5月底就要談囉！"],["郭部長智輝：4,100億不是我經濟部的費用啦！"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道你要講這個問題啦！"],["郭部長智輝：所以我在跟你講，我所了解的原則是這樣。"],["呂委員玉玲：那未來5月底的時候，輪到我們跟美國磋商的時候，如果美國還是繼續，沒有放鬆32%的關稅，我們是不是繼續擴大再編特別預算？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，32%……"],["呂委員玉玲：你現在就把滿額特別預算做出來了？"],["郭部長智輝：32%美國已經講是最高的，我們就用32%來推論。"],["呂委員玉玲：那我現在就請問部長……"],["郭部長智輝：所以不會超過……"],["呂委員玉玲：5月底的磋商……"],["郭部長智輝：不會超過32%！"],["呂委員玉玲：好，5月底的磋商，萬一他這32%沒有鬆口，你要繼續來擴大對美國的採購跟投資？繼續擴大編列特別預算嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，我們現在所做的就是以32%做為基準嘛！"],["呂委員玉玲：所以未來就算他沒有鬆綁，你也不會再繼續擴大編列？"],["郭部長智輝：我們講過了嘛，這個是到116年的年底。"],["呂委員玉玲：3年，所以你是說到116年不再擴大編列特別預算來支應對等關稅？"],["郭部長智輝：這是最高的。"],["呂委員玉玲：你說的？"],["郭部長智輝：不是我在編預算，委員。"],["呂委員玉玲：不是，現在你說的嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我的經濟部……不是，我不是主計長，也不是行政院長，你不能用這個問題來問我。"],["呂委員玉玲：我說針對產業。"],["郭部長智輝：你不能用這個問題來問我啦，這超過我的權限啦。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我才說你們有需要特別預算是針對對等關稅……"],["郭部長智輝：你問我經濟部的部分，我來回答你，好不好？經濟部以外的問題我沒辦法回答。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，部長，請問這次的特別預算是不是針對美國的對等關稅才提出的？"],["郭部長智輝：我們經濟部就是針對美國對等關稅提出來的預算。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以現在這4,100億裡面都是包含在經濟部產業的需求嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：影響。"],["呂委員玉玲：是需求嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：第一波影響、第二波影響、第三波的影響。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你認同4,100億都是產業的需求？"],["郭部長智輝：我們很多的想法都是未雨綢繆，就像您在座談會也講不要雨天收傘，對不對？"],["呂委員玉玲：對。"],["郭部長智輝：照顧廠商，我們不雨天收傘，類似這樣，就是先考慮到最差的狀況可能怎麼樣，我想行政院應該就是按照這樣，第一波的影響可能930億，但是還有第二波、第三波，第二波就是社會的影響，第三波……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我才說這4,100億都要針對產業的需求提出來，因為這個特別預算就是針對關稅的問題，才有這特別預算，不要把無關的事務包裹進來，這才是為產業解決他們的困難。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，不是說對關稅一個名目上的影響，而是實質上……"],["呂委員玉玲：當然是啊！實質的產業需求啊！"],["郭部長智輝：後面延續造成的影響也要考慮。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你才去傾聽，聽到有沒有做到的部分，我們再來提出特別預算，所以我們看到你只增加50億而已，其他部分都是比較不相關的。"],["郭部長智輝：因為那個時候，第二天又改成10%可以豁免90天，所以那個情境有不一樣，我們是參考每一個階段的情境變異做出來的推論。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為你這次提出來的是說用到116年、3年的預算，所以我才特別說你要照預算法第八十三條來編，一般行政方面就用追加預算，不要再這樣包裹。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，影響沒有那麼久的話，當然我們也不會用那些錢，影響沒有那麼那麼久、沒有那麼大，不會用到，是影響有用到那麼多才會用到。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，希望你們把錢用在刀口上。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，在本席質詢結束後休息5分鐘。"],["主席（呂委員玉玲代）：請謝衣鳯召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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我們一樣請邱部長來 請部長委員長部長好"},{"start":14.966,"end":42.437,"text":"那還是同樣的話題就是我們病人自主這個權利法那麼我看到我們這個法案我們兩個有三個法案是兩個執政黨的我們的委員的版本那看到現在我沒有看到正院版那我看到衛福部的報告幾乎是對於主要條文都保留或者是反對那最後結論建議維持原條文我想請問一下部長為什麼衛福部不同意修法"},{"start":45.885,"end":67.609,"text":"我想這個修法我們是用開放的態度啦但是基本上從以前修法的立法的整個過程當中我們覺得可能有很多更重要的事情是不是比修法更重要那個政府一直在做那修法的部分我是覺得我們是用"},{"start":69.137,"end":89.378,"text":"開放的心胸來討論今天的會議是我們召委安排的我想這件事情應該是很多人的心聲我想召委也等不及了那我當然知道衛福部是很慎重那這個部分你還要凝聚多久多久才可以提出我們政院的版本還是都不提了"},{"start":95.666,"end":122.175,"text":"因為這個是已經有立法了嘛那針對針對大家的一些意見然後是臨床上的一些可能需要調整的我也感謝委員提出了我覺得大家開放來討論這個事情是比較好的開放來討論對然後因為武漢病毒法上路五年只有10.3萬人在簽署那比例只有0.45%那真正的執行率會更低"},{"start":123.274,"end":146.946,"text":"然後當然這是修法的原因就是因為我們覺得這個成效是沒有很理想那當然就是希望能夠調整嘛能夠調整讓更多的人更方便我覺得宣傳更重要應該很多人都不太清楚這個東西這個是事實當然還有一個費用的問題啦這也是這一次修法的一個重點那我想"},{"start":151.078,"end":172.051,"text":"今天審查的版本就是我們講的ACP的這個費用太高讓家屬的這個卻步那導致也是導致成效不彰的主因那改由政府負擔那部長認為這個部分會增加預算那請問部長那政府既然不願意負擔能不能那有沒有其他的辦法呢"},{"start":172.751,"end":193.892,"text":"好,我想我們報告委員,我們想逐步,剛剛健保署也有報告,從去年到未來的五月我們都會一直在討論如何如何來開放的確是有讓更多來參與,那是不是這樣子就可以解決我們更多人來那個從剛剛的幾位委員的報告裡面"},{"start":194.472,"end":207.896,"text":"恐怕我們要做更多我覺得這個是這樣啦就是當然這是人民的自由啦然後當然對於政府來講他是也可以減輕我們一些的負擔啦那當然我們尊重每個人的想法不過我覺得這個剛剛我講那個宣傳啊"},{"start":210.037,"end":232.591,"text":"因為真的確實不是很多人能夠了解到這一塊只是一些專業的人或者是有接觸到的才會知道那當然其實搞不好有些人有這個想法那我們當然不是鼓勵他們這樣這個當然是看個人意願不過我覺得這個是未來我們早晚都要面對的事情應該是來開放的用更開放的心態來去"},{"start":234.172,"end":260.575,"text":"這個面對這個事情好嗎是的好那部長那再來我們看到賴清德總統最近在2025年健康台灣全國論壇裡面提出健保的改革想法那他特別提到我們花蓮秀林鄉論人記仇的計畫成功他希望來擴大辦理那部長你這邊也跟進將在花蓮台東擴大辦理這方向是確定的嗎跟委員報告因為"},{"start":261.936,"end":272.065,"text":"那個花蓮秀林鄉他其實他的名字不叫做論人記者媒體都一直寫論人記者我想這個先修正一下因為要達到論人記者這個部分"},{"start":274.025,"end":292.906,"text":"不是不行而是要有很多的配套措施我們以前大概十年前也曾經在台灣七個地方來做有成功有但是當時因為專診制度沒有做好家庭醫師制度也沒有建立所以的確比較多需要配套但是在秀園鄉這個有一點"},{"start":294.707,"end":309.987,"text":"IDS的味道 等一下請署長會補充那我們覺得說他成功 為什麼他成功因為他的 不管是流感的注射率 預防保健的預防真的打啦 或者是篩檢都比其他地方還高"},{"start":310.948,"end":328.5,"text":"那就是要不要有一個醫院 請派人去教育 去做整個前人的照顧那像這樣的模式 就有健康促進的成分在裡面那我想總統很希望真的能夠健康促進有47個地方嘛我的意思是說 為什麼只選電華臨台東來擴大辦理的意思"},{"start":338.283,"end":356.01,"text":"我想我們一步一步來啦那既然發展台東也許他的區域是不是比較因為後面沒有像台北醫療資源你像我們苗栗他泰安其實人口也不多他也是偏鄉啦那我認為當然其實這個"},{"start":358.011,"end":374.707,"text":"你們號稱不會增加健保的支出嘛當然我們這個IDS這個做調查比如說我們個人的病史飲食習慣等等就是我們未來要想要推動的一個叫這個精準醫療的部分嘛對不對不好意思我先補充一下"},{"start":376.849,"end":395.024,"text":"花蓮秀芸香這個齁,其實它也不叫做一般的IDS啦齁它叫做前人、前家、前社、社區的一個整合照顧的一個這一個是世界的趨勢,所以能夠在秀芸香做,我相信它是未來是我們一個典範那這個如果能夠放到各個地方去,我們樂觀其成齁"},{"start":397.026,"end":421.83,"text":"那當然如果只有在秀恩鄉也太可惜了啦因為他畢竟我們是希望這是我覺得不錯的一個政策啦那當然我們希望說我們西班部這邊也有很多偏鄉其實交通也非常不方便而且資源也非常的少那這部分我希望我們衛福部能夠盡快再納入好不好那個簡單那個署長回報一下"},{"start":422.25,"end":443.255,"text":"跟邱委員報告就是說它跟IDS不同是IDS是以醫療為主那這個全人全社區整合照護計畫呢它是以家戶做單位然後導入這個預防保健健康促進等等這些整合的照護啦所以它明顯的可以降低這個迷病率住院率這些重症的發生"},{"start":444.015,"end":465.674,"text":"這個在偏遠地區其實是很好的模式因為畢竟就醫比較遠他是把家裡的資料 等於是建立家裡的資料要建立家戶資料 他的重點在建立家戶資料一般IDS是有團隊去然後你有需要來看病的就來看那他這個不一樣那這個有點就是類似把你們的病史啊幹嘛全部就是把它做資料對要把那個家戶資料整理起來"},{"start":468.356,"end":484.13,"text":"醫療的一個概念其實這個我認為在全國來推動的時候是不是也能夠節省我們健保的支出因為其實很多吃了這個藥不行然後又換了一家醫院每一次去重複對病人也好"},{"start":485.33,"end":506.862,"text":"對我們政府的健保的負擔也好 都不是一個好的事情這是我們常看到的就是說有些人吃了過敏 有些人吃了身體不適或者是各年會產生 比如說有一些藥會產生副作用等等的這些都是一個 我認為是個人的醫療浪費的一個非常大的一個漏洞"},{"start":507.862,"end":533.022,"text":"那我們今年其實也在西部這邊的幾個山地鄉比較偏遠地區也有擴大事辦像北區就是在桃園復興鄉我現在看到你那個圖就是我看到就是我們原民的這個對不對原民部落嘛所以我剛剛會講泰安的原因就在這裡啦那你希望說其實有很多地方真的也需要這個這樣的一個照顧好不好好謝謝"},{"start":535.544,"end":551.401,"text":"那再來問一個就比較短一點那個我們加熱鹽上市就是我們煙害防治法在112年3月公佈實施那審查已經兩年了那我們審查這個結果這個知識沒有結果是什麼原因"},{"start":554.614,"end":573.59,"text":"我想我們非常注意到這個審查的進度我想國建署這邊真的都是按照時程其實常常要補資料然後又有一個時程所以有很多溝通我希望啦現在還沒有完全到最後決定的我希望啦就是說"},{"start":574.19,"end":594.928,"text":"根據國際研究指出青少年使用加熱菸的盛行率是成年人的兩倍並且有將近九成的年輕吸菸者他第一次接觸都是這種加味菸品當然我認為說我們要開放當然我希望我們衛福部這邊的配套能夠把它準備得更完善一些"},{"start":595.689,"end":615.682,"text":"因為現在加熱菸還沒上市,我看到電子菸的器具、工具現在滿街都是啊,它現在不是違法嗎?沒有人取締啊?有有有,我們非常熱爭起立我怎麼沒看到咧?沒有聽到?起立的成果可不可以報告一下?"},{"start":619.054,"end":633.79,"text":"跟委員報告一下有關於這個煙害防治法3月22號上路之後那我們目前對於電子煙跟違法加熱煙的稽查取締的部分不管是中央跨部會跟地方都合力在做這一塊的執法"},{"start":635.111,"end":648.587,"text":"那目前截至114年這個1月截止大概裁罰的件數大概有4500多件裁罰金有大概4.5億那我們中央也會定期再召開這個跨部會的這個查緝的相關"},{"start":650.549,"end":663.955,"text":"那我跟你講,加熱菸如果未來核准上市,我想該有的教育宣導跟我們的管理機制,我想大家吳衛福部這邊要盡快的來擬定。不要讓這個事情變成影響公共健康的一個問題。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":236,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時2分）主席好，一樣請邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，部長好。還是同樣的話題，就是病人自主權利法，我看到有3個法案是2個執政黨委員的版本，看到現在我沒有看到政院版，我看到衛福部的報告幾乎是對主要條文都保留或者是反對，最後結論建議維持原條文，我想請問一下部長，為什麼衛福部不同意修法？"],["邱部長泰源：這個修法我們是用開放的態度，但是基本上，從以前修法的過程當中，我覺得有很多事情比修法更重要，那個政府一直在做。修法的部分，我們是用開放的心胸討論、研議。"],["邱委員鎮軍：今天的會議是召委安排的，這件事情應該是很多人的心聲，我想召委也等不及，我當然知道衛福部很慎重，這個部分你還要凝聚多久？多久才可以提出政院的版本？還是都不提了？"],["邱部長泰源：這個是已經有立法，針對大家的意見然後臨床上一些可能需要調整的，我也感謝委員提出了很多……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，我覺得大家開放來討論這個事情是比較好的。"],["邱部長泰源：開放討論。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看病主法上路5年只有10.3萬人簽署，比率只有0.45%，真正的執行率會更低，這是修法的緣由，我們覺得這個成效沒有很理想，當然就是希望能夠調整讓更多的人更方便，我覺得宣傳更重要，應該很多人都不太清楚這個東西……"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個是事實，當然還有一個費用的問題其實也是這一次修法的重點。今天審查的版本就是我們講ACP的費用太高讓家屬卻步，也是導致成效不彰的主因，改由政府負擔部長認為這個部分會增加預算。請問部長，政府既然不願意負擔，有沒有其他的辦法？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們想逐步，剛剛健保署也有報告，從去年到未來的5月，我們都會一直討論如何開放，的確是有讓更多人來參與，是不是這樣子就會解決讓更多人來？從剛剛的幾位委員的報告裡面，恐怕我們要做更多的事情。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得這個是人民的自由，對政府來講也可以減輕一些負擔，當然我們尊重每個人的想法，不過剛剛我講的宣傳，真的確實不是很多人能了解到這一塊，只有一些專業人士或者是有接觸到才會知道，其實搞不好有些人有這個想法，我們當然不是鼓勵他們，這個是看個人意願，不過我覺得這個是未來早晚都要面對的事情，應該用更開放的心態來面對，好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是的、是的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，部長再來，我們看到賴清德總統最近在2025年健康台灣全國論壇裡面，提出健保的改革想法，他特別提到花蓮秀林鄉論人計酬的計畫成功，他希望擴大辦理，部長也跟進，將在花蓮、臺東擴大辦理，這個方向是確定的嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告，花蓮秀林鄉它的名稱其實不叫論人計酬，媒體都一直寫論人計酬，我想先修正一下。要達到論人計酬不是不行，而是要有很多的配套措施，我們大概十年前也曾經在臺灣7個地方做，有成功但是當時因為轉診制度沒有做好，家庭醫師制度也沒有建立，所以的確比較需要配套。在秀林鄉這個有一點IDS的味道，等一下請署長補充。我們覺得成功是因為它的流感的注射率、預防保健的打預防針或者是篩檢，都比其他地方還高，後面有一個醫院肯派人去教育、去做整個全人的照顧，像這樣的模式就有健康促進的成分在裡面，我想總統很希望真的能夠促進健康。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！有47個地方嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我的意思是，為什麼只選定花蓮、臺東擴大辦理？"],["邱部長泰源：我們是一步一步來，也許花蓮、臺東的區域沒有像臺北醫療資源……"],["邱委員鎮軍：像我們苗栗泰安人口不多，它也是偏鄉，你們號稱不會增加健保支出，當然這個IDS調查，比如個人的病史、飲食習慣等等，就是我們未來想要推動的一個叫精準醫療的部分，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：不好意思，委員，我先補充一下，花蓮秀林鄉這個其實也不是一般的IDS，它叫做全人全社區整合照護計畫，這是世界趨勢，所以先在秀林鄉做，希望未來可以建立典範，這個如果能夠放到各個地方去，我們當然樂觀其成，因為如果只有在秀林鄉就太可惜了，因為它畢竟……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得這是不錯的政策，而我們西半部這邊也有很多偏鄉，交通非常不方便，資源也非常少，這部分我希望衛福部能夠儘快納入，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，委員，我請署長簡單回報一下。"],["石署長崇良：跟邱委員報告，它跟IDS不同，IDS主要是以醫療為主，而這個全人全社區整合照護計畫是以家戶為單位，導入預防保健、健康促進等這些整合照護，所以它很明顯可以降低罹病率、住院率等重症的發生，這個在偏遠地區其實是很好的模式，畢竟那裡就醫比較遠……"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是把家裡的這種資料……等於是建立家裡的資料……"],["石署長崇良：對，要建立家戶資料，它的重點在建立家戶資料，一般IDS是有團隊去，你有需要看病就來看病，這個不一樣……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個是有點類似把病史什麼的全部資料都把它……"],["石署長崇良：對，對，把家戶資料建立起來。"],["邱委員鎮軍：也就是我們講的，未來精準醫療的一個概念，對不對？"],["石署長崇良：對，對，未來就可以……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個如果在全國推動，是不是也能夠節省健保支出？因為有很多人是吃了這個藥不行，然後又換一家醫院，每一次都重複看病，這不管是對病人或是對政府的健保負擔，都不是一個好的事情，這種情形是我們常看到的，也就是有些人吃了藥過敏，有些人吃了身體不適或者更嚴重，比如有些藥會產生副作用等等，我認為這些都是個人醫療浪費的一個非常大漏洞。"],["石署長崇良：是，其實我們今年也在西部幾個山地鄉、偏遠地區擴大試辦，像北區就在桃園復興鄉……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到你們的那個圖，都是原民部落，對不對？"],["石署長崇良：對、對，是原民部落。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我剛才會提到泰安的原因就在這裡，其實很多地方真的也需要這樣的照顧，好不好？"],["石署長崇良：我們來進一步評估。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝。再來問一個問題，有關加熱菸上市問題，菸害防制法在112年3月公布實施，而加熱菸的審查已經兩年了，卻遲遲沒有結果，是什麼原因？"],["邱部長泰源：我們非常注意審查的進度，我想國健署這邊真的都有按照時程，但因為常常要補資料，所以又多了一個時程，然後又需要很多溝通，現在是還沒有完全到最後決定的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：根據國際研究指出，青少年使用加熱菸的盛行率是成年人的兩倍，並且有將近九成的年輕吸菸者，第一次接觸的就是這種加熱菸品，當然，如果我們要開放，希望衛福部的配套能夠準備得更完善，因為現在加熱菸還沒有上市，但我看到電子煙的器具、工具滿街都是，它現在不是違法嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：對啊！違法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：沒有人取締啊！"],["邱部長泰源：有，有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有嗎？有在抓嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們非常認真取締。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我怎麼沒看到、沒聽到有取締成果？有抓到罰多少錢？"],["邱部長泰源：取締的成果，請組長報告一下。"],["羅組長素英：跟委員報告，菸害防制法3月22號上路之後，目前我們對於電子煙跟違法加熱菸的稽查取締部分，不管是中央跨部會或是地方都合力在做這一塊的執法，截至114年1月止，裁罰的件數大概有四千五百多件，裁罰金額約4.5億，中央也會定期召開跨部會查緝的相關會議。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，我跟你講，未來加熱菸如果核准上市，相關的教育宣導和管理機制，希望衛福部這邊要儘快擬定，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不要讓這個事情變成影響公共健康的一個問題，好不好？謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：是，是，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝委員、謝謝部長。主席在這邊宣告：莊瑞雄委員詢答結束之後，休息10分鐘。","接下來請王育敏委員做詢答，如果委員要加提案說明，就一起進行，我們會增加時間，這個剛剛已經有宣布，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","莊瑞雄","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳培瑜","楊曜","陳瑩","涂權吉","陳菁徽"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；二、委員劉建國等\n16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利\n法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00007"}}},{"id":"160856","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160856","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/87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蔣議員 蘇委員 我楊岳昕隨時會死啦2016年啦 他說因為他是肌肉的問題嘛我現在看他每天真的很痛苦"},{"start":69.008,"end":79.052,"text":"他常常早上起來就好像無數的針在插他的肉這樣他這樣跟我描述我聽了一聽他說他應該讓他有選擇他要怎麼處理自己聽起來很有理的所以為了"},{"start":87.31,"end":114.506,"text":"這案子又遭到大宴會要報告,都遭到報告所以這個法通過之後,好像那個年代是很先進的全世界沒有幾個國家通過這個法案那這個法案2015年通過之後,到2019年你在做立委啊,你在做教委啊,部長你要教教委啊2019年到實施,實施到現在就是慢慢走慢慢走那現在就要大修法"},{"start":115.607,"end":140.288,"text":"我是比較保守啦 比較保留那簽的人才ACP 簽的人才10萬請問是要怎麼做 我看不太一樣所以你個人 你個人的看法是怎麼樣我是相對保守啦對 ACP對 我覺得ACP因為 所以"},{"start":144.52,"end":162.823,"text":"這對蘇貞昌醫師本色,他覺得每天臨床上把病人照顧好,不管他是哪一種疾病尤其施昭維是照顧重症的病人、專家所以我們每天都在做倫理的決策其實給病人都是最適當的一個治療最適當的治療最好的照顧所以我們覺得"},{"start":171.523,"end":180.593,"text":"在其他法律方面的層面他到底他的意義何在這個部分我們會有思考我是很敬佩蘇伊斯這個見解"},{"start":183.342,"end":199.796,"text":"但是問題在不管是安寧緩和醫療安寧緩和醫療條例最早的時候其實是有一點點因為剛開始安寧在推嘛所以很多醫病的溝通又沒要做CPR這如果有一個補貨是比較好那以前安寧緩和醫療條例詭異喔其實對社會的一個"},{"start":203.579,"end":216.894,"text":"社會運動也是幫助很大喔大家有時候我會說三八月大家來簽安寧法律條例DNR簽了 旁邊就旁邊像我旁邊剛才找王毅民我都拜了 毅民姐你幫我簽見證人"},{"start":219.69,"end":246.45,"text":"他就變成見證人了你知道嗎就完成了安寧環的藥所以我覺得社會運動讓台灣的人民更知道關心到這一塊絕對是好事情那後來又有自治病前法案更是把它的範圍擴大所以這是對大家對生命教育其實是有幫助那我們也做一個研究我抱歉講不清楚因為我們做兩次研究當開始的時候"},{"start":248.672,"end":274.726,"text":"你要簽ACP,ACP裡面的AD簽好以後到實際上他面臨這個問題的時候,有七成的吻合力也就是說他不願意押胸、不願意插管,大概100%都符合但是在抗生素的使用、在人工輸液的使用哪一個是臨床上比較變化多要看當時的情況,我想你很清楚所以其實有幫忙啦"},{"start":275.886,"end":299.273,"text":"所以這個法規怎麼把它修好,我覺得這是一個好的方向因為當時是非常嚴謹,說要有醫師、有社工、婦女人員還有家屬,甚至要有公眾人數,大家都這樣集齊在那裡你現在要把它開放說比較簡單的,當便宜不用,可以住安養院、住婦女之家"},{"start":300.413,"end":322.439,"text":"不然那廟也可以 那廟的老人家也可以這樣就合意啦 因為不夠嚴謹就會覺得改是要很慎重啦 執行倡議那我另外一個感覺會覺得說是不是更不夠逃避責任啦你看我們的平均壽命 來"},{"start":326.594,"end":334.116,"text":"這是我們2023、2024平均壽命,台灣平均人平均壽命到80.3歲而已,80.3,老婆老婆比起來,老婆的83.7,老婆的76、77而已,我看起來是英年早逝"},{"start":348.649,"end":350.912,"text":"我現在出席參加個別席,增加了190個,越來越多,在沙坡人都多了70幾個,太少了吧平均起來在80.3,你知道嗎,日本現在是85.5,南米平均"},{"start":367.005,"end":377.032,"text":"然後日本的女人 香港的女人居然活得比日本還久日本人其實我很欽佩 我去日本很多次日本人沒有那麼快死啦因為怎樣咧 三善啊 又倒丟 又撩骨 又吃酒 那怎麼會死啦"},{"start":385.737,"end":392.623,"text":"又愛排隊,又愛看背,又愛吃健康食品,又愛吃健康食品,又愛吃健康食品,又愛吃健康食品,又愛吃健康食品,又愛吃健康食品,又愛吃健康食品,又愛吃健康食品,又愛吃健康食品,"},{"start":402.954,"end":417.189,"text":"香港的我就覺得很奇怪香港的女人怎麼活一活那麼久我最近在問香港的醫生香港來台灣當醫生的我都請教也研究了一下他們的結論是走路"},{"start":418.67,"end":437.67,"text":"走路囉 因為香港的地小人潮 阿婆 摩托車 什麼都沒有所以都有走路 坐街 坐公車所以說走路是強迫走路嘛我們台灣不是啊 都騎摩托車 大家都騎摩托車買一個菜市場也騎摩托車 香港都有走日本也很多都有走 日本是有摩托車啦"},{"start":439.171,"end":460.338,"text":"所以香港 澳門 你看都這麼長那新加坡也很長 怕死人那台灣是最後一名 比韓國還短命所以這個你有那麼急 一直要推這個DNR啦 ACP啦在2015年 楊宇新在這裡靠腰他現在2025年也不會死人"},{"start":463.212,"end":474.598,"text":"所以科技的進步會讓我們的壽命是可以解決的癌症的不要怕 楊益心我前面有說你不要緊 她不會害怕我會跟大家報告的是"},{"start":481.311,"end":498.024,"text":"以前沒有辦法醫治的,現在標靶藥什麼什麼生物自治一直出來就可以延長壽命啦所以不要說動不動就要叫人塞DNA動不動,我看那些以前沒人的現在都有人了,像以前來的,溫室的以前來的現在也有做治療很多年了,對不對,普遍那我感覺說,研究院就要升職,所以都一直塞,有這種事情嗎,署長"},{"start":510.563,"end":536.891,"text":"沒有 我當然你的專業還有間諜你很敬佩但是從我的角度我會覺得所有從事推動安寧政策跟關心安寧政策跟實際上照顧人他們的心都是說當你真的沒辦法已經到末期的時候我怎麼樣讓你有生命品質怎麼樣讓你善終教育報告善終是五輔林門裡面最難達到的"},{"start":538.311,"end":562.92,"text":"所以我們一定要面對這個事情過去二十多年義大利的時候他們早上打招呼不是說早安是說你今天想到死亡了沒他們在推行死亡教育就是這樣在推行讓大家有一點準備當然我們希望一五十歲很重視這個但是多到八二歲你現在如果去炒地硬貢你如果說阿公阿嬤十八歲他們都不會打招呼"},{"start":565.001,"end":590.762,"text":"大家吃霸凌他們就破壞了所以可能大家期待但是如果你比較面對人生有時候很難講的你如果比較了解的話你也能幫忙你的親戚朋友你酒瓶的人互相都有這個面對死亡的一個怎麼樣做好善終的一個準備這是好事啦這是好事所以我蔣議員他們都要講很多所以你先時間給我一下齁"},{"start":595.206,"end":617.961,"text":"什麼要我給他檢部署建議啦你現在很大的一個希望就是說把什麼刀山包海全部都納進來這也我給你欽佩啦但是你們一納進來之後就把那個壓價格壓壓壓壓的很低心臟支架在我那個年代是全部都是智慧放一支支架要五六萬沒有塗藥的喔"},{"start":620.903,"end":627.606,"text":"後來健保局跟支付料一支支付一萬五千點點喔不是錢喔"},{"start":631.345,"end":656.771,"text":"啊,過來還有塗藥支叫出來,塗藥支叫他付差額那個開急追的那個Cage,那個空啊,也是你們付,還沒付之前智慧是四五萬塊你們付的時候也是一萬多點,一萬多點齁那現在像剛剛陳昭之講的那種靈交,那個開心臟外科是以前都是智慧嘛,啊你現在給他支付之後,付一個萬多點"},{"start":658.803,"end":680.242,"text":"亂說也好,是不夠,有這樣的退出所以有時候你要包山包海的時候這次川普政府來跟我們要求其中一點就是他要讓我們開放一個智慧的平台新藥、新科技、新耗材,想付的人也付得起的人他們有一個空間"},{"start":682.792,"end":700.504,"text":"這樣我覺得這樣是對的啦你每一樣都把它壓來健保幾戶標靶藥拿來幾戶很多藥廠受不了那都不賣台灣了嘛那也是我們的損失嘛對不對很多藥我可以唸出來喔沒有時間了齁我都是這樣退出台灣的市場所以"},{"start":701.724,"end":727.236,"text":"裡面是照顧普羅大眾這是要欽佩的但是有一些還是開放一點點讓他們有一個這次關稅談就會談到這個所以署長你的行情我很欽佩你的做法我也很認同但是如果什麼空間再來就是要和解的時候你每天都用乳品也是要考慮署長你講一下"},{"start":731.251,"end":753.285,"text":"謝謝委員的指教啦 確實啦 很多東西是有人想納入健保 有人不想納入健保所以同一個產品也都有不同的意見 癌藥也是如此 醫茶也是如此所以健保呢秉持的就是第一個齁 那麼急重難症要先照顧啦不要讓這個病人在危急的時候還要再考慮荷包的問題啦"},{"start":754.085,"end":779.181,"text":"所以第一個我們的態度就是這樣所以像這個凝膠我們也不是全面擠附我們也是主要挑這個主動脈玻璃這種非常緊急這個委員也清楚那個這是Type A從這個主動脈根部撕裂的這一種那麼它的縫合後的這個凝膠使用所以適用對象大概就是1400多位所以其餘的我們也是還在留在自費市場"},{"start":779.941,"end":800.794,"text":"我們就是讓這個危及生命的時候能夠得到健保的給付所以我們考量上第一個一定先從集中南海優先那行有餘力我們的預算夠大家這個健保費繳的夠那我們再逐步的擴大所以這個我們都有這個倫理的考量也有這個疾病需求的考量這些都會一起"},{"start":801.574,"end":817.443,"text":"我們國家的先進指標,就GDP國民收入,再來就是平均壽命,再來是癌症死亡年齡死亡率,再來公共衛生等等,這都是指標,平均壽命這樣還不夠長,在阿姨家還剩下了"},{"start":820.425,"end":847.644,"text":"所以很需要努力的空間啦所以這個法是我們起頭的現在要修改我是相對保留啦跟部長講我的立場好不好好 首先我要報告一下平均寿命或者健康的平均移民是我們現在目前國家的政策重要的所以會來努力這不會在困難裡的啦這大家共同努力啦好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":212,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（9時46分）謝謝劉召委的禮讓，讓我先發言。請部長還有石署長。"],["主席：請部長、署長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，ACP自主權利法我跟你review一下啦，2015年通過的時候我在當召委，那個時候劉建國也在，王育敏也在，那個時候為什麼這部法到最後會臨門一腳就推上去？就是楊玉欣委員，剛才你說他現在是基隆市社會處處長嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：對，社會處。"],["蘇委員清泉：那個時候他跟我說：蘇召委，我楊玉欣隨時會死。2015年他說是因為肌肉萎縮的問題。我看他每天真的很痛苦，他說他早上起來就好像有無數的針在刺他的肉，他這樣跟我描述，我聽到覺得……他說應該要讓他有選擇要怎麼處理他自己，聽起來很有道理，所以後來這個案子又跑到院會報告。病人自主權利法通過之後，在那個年代好像是很先進的，全世界沒有幾個國家通過這個法案。那這個法案2015年通過之後到2019年，部長，你在當召委了，自2019年實施到現在就是這樣慢慢推行。現在說要大修法，我是比較保守，持保留態度，有簽ACP的才10萬人，簽那麼多是要做什麼？我看法不太一樣，所以你個人的看法是怎麼樣？我是相對保守。"],["邱部長泰源：你說對ACP？"],["蘇委員清泉：對。"],["邱部長泰源：我覺得ACP，這就是蘇召委的醫師本色，他覺得每天在臨床上把病人照顧好，不管他是哪一種疾病，尤其蘇召委是照顧重症病人的專家，所以我們每天都已經在做倫理的決策，其實給病人的都是最適當的治療、最好的照顧，所以我們會覺得在其他法律的層面，到底它的意義何在？所以這個部分我們會去思考。我很敬佩蘇醫師有這個見解，但是問題在安寧緩和醫療條例最早推行的時候，因為剛開始在推安寧，所以醫病需要很多溝通，又沒有要做CPR的情況，如果有一個保護是比較好，而且安寧緩和醫療條例過了以後，其實對社會運動也是幫助很大。有時候在演講現場有300個，大家來簽安寧緩和醫療條例，DNR簽下去，像我旁邊剛好坐王育敏委員，育敏姐，你幫我簽見證人，他就變成見證人了，就完成了安寧緩和醫療的簽署，所以我覺得這個社會運動，讓臺灣人民更關心到這一塊，絕對是好事情。後來又有病人自主權利法案更是把它的範圍擴大，這對生命教育其實有幫助。不好意思說明一下，我們做過兩次的研究，剛開始的時候，如果ACP裡面的AD簽好以後，跟他們實際上面臨問題的時候有七成的吻合力，也就是說他不願意壓胸、不願意插管，大概100%都符合，但是在抗生素的使用、在人工輸液的使用，在臨床上變化就比較多，要看當時的情況，我想你很清楚，其實是有幫忙的，所以病人自主權利法要怎麼修得更好，我覺得這是一個好的方向。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為當時非常嚴謹，所以要有醫師、社工、護理人員，還有家屬，甚至要有公正人士，大家都要集合在那裡。現在要開放比較簡單點，可以不用在醫院，可以在安養院、在護理之家，不然在廟裡也可以、在老人會也可以？因為不夠嚴謹就會覺得……要改執行場域要很慎重；我另外一個感覺會覺得是不是健保局在逃避責任？你看我國的平均壽命，臺灣2023年、2024年的平均壽命到80.3歲而已，如果男女比，女的83.7歲；男的76、77歲而已，這76、77歲我看來叫英年早逝。我現在參加告別式，鄉下八、九十歲的越來越多，男人活到七十幾歲這壽命太少了吧！平均壽命才80.3歲，你知道日本現在是85.5歲，男女平均喔！香港的女人居然活得比日本還久。我很欽佩日本人，我去日本很多次，日本人沒這麼早死，因為瘦瘦的、又矮矮的、又駝背、又吃少，這樣哪會死啦！還要排隊看病、還要吃藥、還要吃健康食品，每天都吃味噌湯、吃發酵的納豆、臭酸豆子什麼都吃，所以那種國家能活到100歲也沒什麼稀罕啦！","香港我就覺得很奇怪，香港的女人怎麼可以活這麼久？像我最近在問香港的醫生，從香港來臺灣當醫生的，我都請教並研究一下，他們的結論是走路，他說香港地小人稠，沒有摩托車、什麼都沒有，所以他們走路去搭捷運、搭公車，所以他說香港是強迫走路，但是臺灣不是，大家都騎摩托車，去菜市場也騎摩托車，香港都用走的，日本也有很多人用走的、也有騎摩托車的，所以香港、澳門，你看壽命都這麼長，新加坡也很長，嚇死人。臺灣是最後一名，比韓國還短命，所以你那麼急著一直要推DNR、ACP，2015年楊玉欣在這裡「哭枵」，現在2025年他也還沒死，他還活著啊！所以代表什麼？科技的進步讓我們的壽命是可以延長的，一些癌症的、標靶的……楊玉欣，我跟他很好，我這樣說他沒關系，他不會罵我啦！我要跟大家報告，以前沒有辦法醫治的，現在標靶藥、什麼生物製劑一直出來，就可以延長壽命啦！所以不要動不動就叫人家sign DNR，我覺得以前沒有機會的，現在都有機會了。就像胰臟癌以前必死無疑，現在做治療也可以活很多年，對不對？部長，我就覺得健保局是為了要省錢，所以都一直推廣，有這個事情嗎？署長。"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，當然你的專業還有見解，令人敬佩。但是從我的角度，我會覺得所有從事推動安寧政策、關心安寧政策，跟實際照顧者，他們的心情就是當病人真的沒辦法，已經到末期的時候，要怎麼樣讓他的生命有品質、怎麼樣讓他善終。跟召委報告，善終是五福臨門裡面最難達到的，所以我們一定要面對這個事情。過去20年前在義大利，他們早上打招呼不是說早安，是說你今天想到死亡了沒，他們在推行死亡教育就是這樣在推行，讓大家有一點準備。當然我們也希望50歲很重視善終，但是可以活到120歲，你現在如果去鄉下演講，你如果說阿公阿嬤活到百歲，他們都不會拍手，但如果說活到120歲，他們就拍手了。"],["蘇委員清泉：對！"],["邱部長泰源：大家可能期待長壽，如果早點面對，人生有時候也很難說，如果了解的話，也可以幫忙親戚朋友、周邊的人，互相都有面對死亡、做好善終的準備，這是好事情啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：最後我要建議健保署，你現在最大的希望，就是包山包海全部都納進來，我也欽佩你啦！但是你們納進來之後就把價格壓得很低。心臟支架在我那個年代全部都是自費，放一支支架要5、6萬，沒有塗藥的喔！後來健保局給付之後，一支支架付1萬5,000點，是點數不是錢喔！後來才有塗藥的支架出來，塗藥支架才付差額；開脊椎的cage也是你們付，還沒付之前自費是4、5萬塊，你們付了之後也是一萬多點；現在像剛剛陳昭姿講的凝膠，開心臟外科手術凝膠以前都是自費，現在給付一萬多點，一萬多塊也好，是不夠的，藥廠就會退出。所以你要包山包海的時候，這次川普政府跟我們要求，其中一點就是他要讓我們開放一個智慧的平台，新藥、新科技、新耗材，要讓想付的也付得起的人有一個空間，我覺得這樣是對的啦！你每一樣都把它押來健保給付，標靶藥拿來給付，很多藥廠受不了都不賣臺灣也是我們的損失，很多藥我可以念出來但是沒有時間，都是這樣退出臺灣的市場。你們是照顧普羅大眾，這是讓人欽佩的，但是有一些還是要開放一點點，這次關稅就會談到這個。署長的胸襟我很欽佩，你的做法我也很認同，但是要留一點空間。再來就是藥在核價的時候，你每一樣都用grouping也是要考慮。署長，你說一下。"],["石署長崇良：謝謝委員的指教，確實很多東西有人想納入健保，有人不想納入健保，同一個產品也都有不同的意見，藥是如此，醫材也是如此，所以健保秉持的第一個就是急重難症要先照顧，不要讓病人在危急的時候還要考慮荷包的問題，第一個我們的態度就是這樣。像凝膠也不是全面給付，也是主要挑主動脈剝離這種非常緊急的，委員也清楚這是Type A從主動脈根部撕裂縫合後的凝膠使用，所以適用對象大概就是一千四百多位，其餘的還是留在自費市場，我們就是讓危及生命的時候能夠得到健保的給付，所以我們考量上第一個一定先從急重難罕優先，行有餘力，我們的預算夠、大家健保費繳得夠，再逐步擴大，都有倫理的考量也有疾病需求的考量，這些都會一起思考。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們國家的先進指標是GDP國民收入，再來是平均壽命，再來是癌症的年齡、死亡率，再來公共衛生等等這些都是指標，我們的平均壽命這樣還不夠長，在亞洲還算倒數，所以還有很多要努力的空間，這個法是我們起頭的，現在要修改我是相對保留，跟部長說我的立場，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，蘇召委，我要報告一下，平均壽命或者健康的平均餘命是目前國家政策重點，我也會來努力。"],["蘇委員清泉：這不分藍綠，大家共同努力。"],["邱部長泰源：一起來努力。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：我是要提醒蘇召委，醫界多數都支持ACP這個服務的量能要擴大，也希望從經濟面考量健保署、衛福部要來支持，這個是你們醫界大家應該有的共識，都有發聲明稿。第二，你講現在醫療很進步沒有錯，但是我們在公告第五款寫得非常清楚，楊委員是主提案，我也是提案人還有王委員，你也是，當時規定其他經中央主管機關公告之病人疾病狀況或痛苦難以忍受、疾病無法治癒且依當時醫療水準無其他合適解決方法之情形，所以要比餘命是要比健康餘命，如果在比不健康餘命就不用比了啊！人到最後要善終是要好走，不要難走，不要躺在那邊用無效醫療一直顧，顧到反而讓健保負擔一直提高，今天訂這個法的目是在這個地方，你很清楚啊！但是我剛才聽你說……好了，這樣就好，不要再說了，不好意思。","請邱鎮軍委員詢答，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","莊瑞雄","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳培瑜","楊曜","陳瑩","涂權吉","陳菁徽"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；二、委員劉建國等\n16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利\n法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00007"}}},{"id":"160855","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160855","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc06dd707643d49e0e02ae3c352587f86955d77c67688655a4250fc6cff46c367e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"09:37:30 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什麼都給 都開綠燈只要少數黨 民進黨的主張一再的被噤聲 被閹割 下一頁第一個最大的檔案是議事爭議也就是週三 昭偉所排的這個議案想就教於周恩來秘書長違法會議可以弄假成真嗎"},{"start":355.467,"end":372.216,"text":"非法表决可以成为国会的惯例吗如果以现在国民党上上下下挺作弊挺违法挺造假的这个逻辑看来"},{"start":373.769,"end":396.448,"text":"周恩來乃至於韓國瑜院長在立法院所進行的非法會議違法表決也不過是整個國民黨體系系統性集體性的一種違法作弊的行為的延伸所以郭平動上上下下一個樣"},{"start":397.967,"end":426.883,"text":"我這裡列舉出來的議事爭議包括第一大類違反程序正義國會沒了民主討論第二大類是議事雙標行政中立蕩然無存第三大類是操弄行政程序居然可以把立法院三讀通過的法案作為人質肉票壓在立法院不送就不送"},{"start":428.064,"end":448.132,"text":"想送才送出包括選罷法延宕35天才送出才化法延宕62天才送出包括總預算延了30天送出一個沒有完整數額前所未見的預算審查案細節我就不多說"},{"start":449.452,"end":466.787,"text":"所以說 韓國瑜院長的藍白一色 韓國瑜院長的青一色就是一再的護航包庇藍白拔拍掉 意識不中立 成為台灣民主的常態其實剛剛裴宇委員說我們在這裡對著空氣說話 其實是蠻煎熬的"},{"start":472.935,"end":498.554,"text":"那我今天也有一點另外的感慨週一週三司法法治委員會有許多的媒體同仁來關切他們想要探尋立法院的秘書長會成為違法院的秘書長嗎週一週三還有很多媒體關切這個事但今天週四媒體在現場已經寥寥無幾"},{"start":502.065,"end":528.485,"text":"我要說的是如果在立法院舉手表決第一次民主倒退30年在國會擴權法案表決的時候舉手表決造成台灣社會多大的震撼可是第二次第三次在12月20號的限訴法選報法裁判法再一次動用舉手表決的時候台灣的社會可能已經麻木了可能覺得"},{"start":530.433,"end":549.827,"text":"過去有舉手表決那現在再來一次也沒什麼關係了就像今天會議一樣周恩來一次不來兩次不來媒體會追蹤會報導社會會譴責會批判可是到第三次的時候整個社會恐怕也麻木了"},{"start":551.001,"end":569.117,"text":"一個立法院秘書長對於制度的背叛當社會都已經麻木不仁不再關切也就是讓惡力成了慣例讓違法成了常態我認為這真的是台灣民主最大的悲哀"},{"start":570.359,"end":582.125,"text":"所以周恩來秘書長 號稱立法院的活字典我們從國會助理 大學讀書 研究所念政治一再的都會拜讀周恩來秘書長所寫的議事規則但是當他自己踐踏了 打臉了過去書中所闡述的議事規則跟議事中立"},{"start":593.206,"end":605.843,"text":"那讓這樣子的意識不中立成為立院的常態我真的覺得比悲哀更悲哀下一頁我進入第二個主題就是國會擴簽件的爭議"},{"start":608.507,"end":629.121,"text":"是周一召委用心良苦想要了解的議題在游錫堃院長擔任第十屆立法院院長的時候國會擴建 簽建有具體的進程跟規劃甚至在2021年啟動成立了產官學研跨領域的專家委員會"},{"start":631.512,"end":648.793,"text":"經過幾年的討論也評選出六處優先考慮的擴遷建的基地長址包括中正紀念堂的園區包括空總的舊址也有委員提出土城看守所的限址"},{"start":649.554,"end":665.941,"text":"也有人提出台中成功嶺的營區或是高鐵彰化車站特定區乃至於中興文化創意產業園區在南投這是過去的第十屆專家學者討論的幾個擴建基地的選址我們以為"},{"start":671.958,"end":698.15,"text":"這樣子的討論會延伸不論選擇在哪裡台灣要作為一個國會的民主表徵它能夠成為民主監督的基地可以成為公民社會成炕的場域可以成為台灣民主教育的空間能夠成為國會外交的場址可以成為民主觀光的景點"},{"start":699.831,"end":717.828,"text":"當初這是由院長提出來的幾個宏觀的vision但是到韓院長的任內呢他一再推給黨團來協商再來討論後續但是黨團要不要協商是韓院長你要不要主持啊"},{"start":718.849,"end":721.03,"text":"韓院長就把立法院的擴建簽件這個時代的使命推給黨團協商而他本人不開協商然後連帶影響立法院已經編列的709萬的先期規劃評估報告一直暫緩執行到現在"},{"start":740.379,"end":765.919,"text":"所以擴遷建的爭議我們需要有宏觀遠見的立院院長來持續的撥劃擴大公共的討論很可惜那個具有宏觀遠見的立院院長不是韓國瑜下一頁我昨天在會議上也對召委提出詢問如果周恩來秘書長成了周不來"},{"start":767.594,"end":795.706,"text":"我們這會期要解凍預算那立法院的解凍預算不解凍了嗎雖然立法院的解凍預算金額不高好像只有800多萬但是循程序秘書長還是要來列席而我這邊具體針對立法院的預算執行的爭議我也想要就叫周萬來秘書長我相信他現在正在看直播"},{"start":797.133,"end":813.703,"text":"立法院一直二砍二删其他的憲法機關的預算其他政院部會的預算可是韓院長花錢不手軟用公帑來做個人的人情院長不折不扣就是康樂股長我們看看喔"},{"start":815.88,"end":836.31,"text":"這一張照片是國民黨的委員他在社群上PO出的他很開心的說韓院長呢很體恤立法院的職工員工買了五星級精華五星級精華酒店的月餅禮盒每一盒高達1380元立法院的職員工有1149位換算出來這一個花大錢"},{"start":846.506,"end":862.929,"text":"來做人情的花費就高達159萬我們認為職員工都很辛苦可是過去沒有任何一個院長花這麼大的金額一次性而且是五星級的月餅這是對應於我們在二崁二山其他院預算的同時間"},{"start":872.847,"end":891.695,"text":"立法院長可以這樣大手筆的花錢然後容許我們持續的去惡砍別人的預算嗎下一頁預算的爭議還有一個立法院的電梯中心大樓的三座電梯一直故障怎麼修怎麼故障"},{"start":893.599,"end":916.429,"text":"韓院長很重視 所以要編預算再來修我們支持 因為這涉及安全可是呢 立法院的預算這麼多可是我赫然發現 立法院要修電梯啟動的二倍金2350萬是要求行政院支應啊"},{"start":917.529,"end":942.725,"text":"立法院修電梯自己不掏錢拗行政院買單而這個時刻還是立法院在大砍行政院預算的時間這樣的預算爭議立法院花不起這筆錢嗎周恩來秘書長在直播的另一邊您好好思索這個問題希望您以書面回答 下一頁"},{"start":944.386,"end":947.65,"text":"我也要請立法院秘書長以書面回答當我們砍監察院的預算砍了97%連監察院買衛生紙都綁手綁腳可是立法院添購新的設備卻是大手大腳大手筆啊"},{"start":961.397,"end":970.023,"text":"我就發現最近立法院一直在換電視我不曉得章偉還有在場的委員是不是觀察我們的辦公室的電視一換再換113年貸換一次花了將近160萬114年又編了將近125萬加36萬要再換100台的電視"},{"start":985.487,"end":998.061,"text":"電視都壞光了嗎為什麼一直大手筆的在花錢呢就我自己的辦公室電視都還可以觀看都還很新為什麼要花這些冤枉錢好再來講電話"},{"start":1001.519,"end":1009.863,"text":"我赫然發現立法院編列預算汰換電話2900台以及行動分機500台藥花公帑6,899萬當我們大砍其他的部會的預算的時候我們自己買電視換電話這樣子的預算執行爭議請周萬來秘書長用書面答覆"},{"start":1031.089,"end":1051.896,"text":"第三個主題是今天召委排的主題小心匪諜就在立法院這絕對是嚴肅的國安漏洞公民監督聯盟所票選出來2024立法院的代表字居然是匪共匪這個匪"},{"start":1053.959,"end":1061.152,"text":"代表共諜是不是滲透進入了立法院這已經成為社會高度關注的議題下一頁"},{"start":1063.598,"end":1087.699,"text":"袁紅冰教授去年已經點出習近平下達指示在立法院的新國會鎖定韓國瑜、鎖定傅坤祺乃至於附隨組織黃國昌只要能夠影響這三人戰場就在立法院不論是以查弊案之名來破壞台灣的國防自主或經濟安全"},{"start":1089.54,"end":1110.881,"text":"或者是用國會改革的名義來遂行國會的擴權讓立法院成為台灣實體政治權力最大的舞台當然還包括要強化跟中國的統戰互動這些等等袁紅冰作家教授所說的每一件事情都應驗了下一頁"},{"start":1112.119,"end":1137.833,"text":"所以說共諜的爭議無所不在無孔不入國會極有可能是破口法務部我們上週所排列的專案報告吳宗憲委員所排的法務部所提出來的匪諜滲透的破口沒有辦法提到立法院因為立法院要自我克責自己來保密防諜下一頁"},{"start":1139.315,"end":1160.393,"text":"但是共諜的事件層出不窮是不分黨派在立法院藍白委員最近都在打2025年4月發生的前院長游錫堃辦公室的助理涉及向中共洩露立法院的相關機密當然該辦有共諜一定要辦不分黨派"},{"start":1161.374,"end":1171.715,"text":"但是藍白的委員不要忘了2020年立委陳淑慧的前助理立委張立善的前助理都涉犯了共諜案"},{"start":1173.793,"end":1194.074,"text":"2024年李上典郭沛晶兩位涉及收受中國的資助來為立委鄭天才助選免費招待選民赴中旅遊2024年的8月民眾黨的發言人桃園黨部馬志威收受中國資助百萬來選立委"},{"start":1197.16,"end":1218.627,"text":"這不都是共諜滲透的明證嗎更不要說陳玉珍號稱他的助理游志斌有中國籍還來大鬧國會所以要查共諜不分黨派都有被滲透的可能或是現在進行是大家修法立法要一起來下一頁"},{"start":1220.697,"end":1249.977,"text":"我具体的提出现在公部门对于公务人员的查核拒绝或者是情治人员国安人员资安人员有不同的查核跟调查的程序跟这个分级分类立法院目前没有任何查核或拒绝的机制请在线上观看直播的周万来秘书长好好来研究一套国会如何防范共谍"},{"start":1250.877,"end":1264.859,"text":"的自我克責跟相關的內規這是立法院要做的事不分黨派都要來做來最後而民進黨在這裡宣誓民進黨"},{"start":1266.865,"end":1293.159,"text":"會先行就以附中登載公開揭露的這件事情在立委的層次我們修的兩岸人民關係條例港澳人民關係條例等等已經被藍白聯手擋了363次如果說連立委附中登載一再被擋那未來如果要擴及立委的團隊助理"},{"start":1294.082,"end":1316.58,"text":"恐怕在立法院也很難過關但是民進黨團會先行我們已經啟動研議針對民進黨團的立委或助理群我們研議已簽同意書來做到主動揭露附中的相關資訊希望能夠藉由這樣子的一個動作"},{"start":1318.081,"end":1330.463,"text":"公開的登載能夠來達到事前報備事後報告來做很多防止共諜滲透的可能性的防範"},{"start":1331.809,"end":1354.979,"text":"所以藍白不做的民進黨團會先行但是我剛剛就教於周恩來秘書長的立法院如何建立一個內部的自我管控自我克責國會的自律針對防止共諜滲透的這件事情請立法院要以書面報告來答覆委員會"},{"start":1356.52,"end":1379.795,"text":"最後我用一分鐘的時間我要代表柯建民總召他已經具體針對周萬來秘書長高百祥議事處長還有郭明正法治局長具體提出了刑事的告發而告發的理由當然奠基於這一年來"},{"start":1381.803,"end":1402.533,"text":"被告周萬來高百祥身為立法院重要行政幕僚本應依公務員服務法及相關職責來確保議事程序之中立公正與合法為兩人明知議事規則之適用卻蓄意濫權代呼職務協助違反正常運作"},{"start":1404.458,"end":1432.683,"text":"協助違反議事的正常運作並縱容議事失序進而造成國會內部的民主癱瘓立委投票權也屢屢遭受非法妨礙因此柯建民總召對於上述三位提出了刑法第130條公務員廢除職務釀成災害罪來提起刑事的告發所以在這裡"},{"start":1434.068,"end":1460.725,"text":"這一個告發已經提出不管是公務員要送工程會懲戒或者是來做進行司法後續的告發跟偵辦我想民進黨團我們針對的不是個人我們針對的是對國會民主的制度那也要最後請教於昭偉我看到吳宗憲昭偉已經排了下週的議程"},{"start":1462.867,"end":1479.886,"text":"如果周萬來所引用的立法院各委員會組織法第二條成立的話吳宗憲下周他不能排任何一個未經院會交付的專題報告可是他禮拜一跟禮拜三都排了專題報告"},{"start":1481.943,"end":1508.699,"text":"如果韓國瑜引用的條文成立的話吳宗憲召委也不得邀請擔任幕僚長的總統府秘書長國安會秘書長列席司法法治委員會所以這不是雙標什麼是雙標這不是藍白要的什麼都可以少數黨所排的案一律都封殺所以奧勒拜拿捏這幾個秘書長"},{"start":1511.317,"end":1531.053,"text":"是不是也可以如同週案來秘書長一樣不請假就不來開會這樣的專案報告是不是就不能成立不能成會我們不能監督不能質詢不能討論了呢所以這是一個非常嚴正的提問那我也在這裡結束我今天的"},{"start":1532.449,"end":1547.936,"text":"三次會議集合一次的質詢我們希望列為議事記錄希望在線上觀看的周秘書長周秘書長好好的以書面報告來回答今天本席所提出來的相關問題好謝謝吳世耀委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":80,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（9時37分）謝謝主席，我相信周萬來秘書長此時此刻不敢來到司法及法制委員會，但他一定在立法院的某一個空間、某一個辦公室，正在看著司法及法制委員會的線上直播，所以我相信我現在對於周秘書長所提出的各項議題的質詢，他就算沒有來，也應當認真聽，也應當作筆記，畢竟能夠成為立法院秘書長是國家賦予的責任，是人民對國會有所期待，秘書長即便成了「周亂來」、成了「周不來」，但他還是中華民國立法院的秘書長，該做的事還是應當要做好，而不是一再的怠忽職責。","首先要跟主席報告，今天本席依舊會再次提出臨時提案，周秘書長一次不來，我們就譴責一次，我想這也創下了立法院有史以來，單周第三次被譴責的從政人員，應該也創下了史上被譴責次數最密集的紀錄，而這個負面紀錄是他自己做出來的。今天我很認真的針對這一週，我們沒有辦法來發言、來進行民主討論、理性對話的三個主題，簡要盡可能濃縮為一次的發言，我希望能夠透過議事紀錄明確的登載，因為立委的問政要向公民負責、向社會負責。","今天我們要來看看，立法院已經成了太上院，除了去年國會擴權的法案一再被大法官打臉，國會並沒有國會優位，但顯然藍白的委員還有韓國瑜主導的立法院視憲法於無物，立院最大！就像是一個傳染病一樣，不只立法院自己認為它是所有憲政機關中地位最高的、權力最大的，連在立法院內部的監督質詢、民主運作，居然韓院長跟周秘書長聯手，立院最大，在立法院的內部也成了一個上癮，之前說違憲上癮，現在立院最大已經都成癮了，所以今天我們除了再次地提出譴責之外，我們要很嚴正地表達，這不是針對任何的個人，立法院的秘書長今天是周萬來，過去有林志嘉，有不同的人，未來也會有新的人來接任，但不管誰擔任這個職務，都要恪遵議事中立，我們關切的不是對於個人的批判，而是對於制度的捍衛。","昨天我們的主席莊召委說得非常好，周萬來一再地藐視國會，缺席司法及法制委員會依程序議題合理正當所發出的備詢邀請，這個作為是對整個民主制度的背叛，這樣子的缺席，藐視國會，不循程序請假，甚至造成我們的會議沒有辦法進行，這樣的惡行惡狀是一種對於臺灣國會民主制度的背叛。","原來我們的院長就是始作俑者，院長居然無視於我們的內規，院長要議事中立，院長更要政治中立，但是我們韓院長426上凱道，我們固然尊重他的言論自由，但是身為立法院的院長，用許多不倫不類的比喻來闡述臺灣現在民主的危機，我如果要套用韓院長的話，他所謂的賴清德只會清一色，而事實上，真正清一色的人不折不扣就是韓國瑜，因為立法院已經成了藍白一色，這藍白一色是什麼？就是議事毫不中立，政治也毫不公正，只要藍白要的，什麼都給，都開綠燈，只有少數黨、民進黨的主張一再地被噤聲、被閹割。第一個，最大的當然是議事爭議，也就是週三召委所排的這個議案，想就教於周萬來秘書長，違法會議可以弄假成真嗎？非法表決可以成為國會的慣例嗎？如果以現在國民黨上上下下挺作弊、挺違法、挺造假的這個邏輯看來，周萬來乃至於韓國瑜院長在立法院所進行的非法會議、違法表決，也不過是整個國民黨體系系統性、集體性的一種違法作弊行為的延伸，所以國民黨上上下下一個樣，我這裡列舉出來的議事爭議包括第一大類違反程序正義，國會沒了民主討論；第二大類是議事雙標，行政中立蕩然無存；第三大類是操弄行政程序，居然可以把立法院三讀通過的法案作為人質肉票押在立法院，不送就不送，想送才送出，包括選罷法延宕35天才送出，財劃法延宕62天才送出，包括總預算延了30天，送出一個沒有完整數額、前所未見的預算審查案。細節我就不多說，所以韓國瑜院長的藍白一色、韓國瑜院長的清一色就是一再的護航，包庇藍白詐賭，議事不中立成為臺灣民主的常態。","其實剛剛培瑜委員說我們在這裡對著空氣說話，其實是蠻煎熬的，我今天也有一點另外的感慨，週一、週三的司法及法制委員會有許多的媒體同仁來關切，他們想要探詢立法院的秘書長會成為違法院的秘書長嗎？週一、週三還有很多媒體關切這件事，但今天週四了，媒體在現場已經寥寥無幾，我要說的是，如果在立法院舉手表決第一次，民主倒退30年，在國會擴權法案表決的時候，舉手表決造成臺灣社會多大的震撼，可是第二次、第三次，在12月20號的憲訴法、選罷法、財劃法再一次動用舉手表決的時候，臺灣的社會可能已經麻木了，可能覺得過去有舉手表決，那現在再來一次也沒什麼關係了。就像今天會議一樣，周萬來一次不來、兩次不來，媒體會追蹤、會報導，社會會譴責、會批判，可是到第三次的時候，整個社會恐怕也麻木了。一個立法院秘書長對於制度的背叛，當社會都已經麻木不仁，不再關切，也就是讓惡例成了慣例，讓違法成了常態，我認為這真的是臺灣民主最大的悲哀。周萬來秘書長號稱立法院的活字典，我們從國會助理、大學讀書、研究所念政治，一再的都會拜讀周萬來秘書長所寫的議事規則，但是當他自己踐踏了、打臉了過去書中所闡述的議事規則跟議事中立，讓這樣子的議事不中立成為立院的常態，我真的覺得比悲哀更悲哀。","接下來我進入第二個主題，就是國會擴遷建的爭議，是週一召委用心良苦想要了解的議題。在游錫堃院長擔任第10屆立法院院長的時候，國會擴建、遷建有具體的進程跟規劃，甚至在2021年啟動成立了產、官、學、研跨領域的專家委員會，經過幾年的討論，也評選出6處優先考慮的擴遷建基地場址，包括中正紀念堂園區、空總的舊址，也有委員提出土城看守所現址，也有人提出臺中成功嶺營區，或是高鐵彰化車站特定區，乃至於南投的中興文化創意產業園區，這是過去第10屆專家學者討論的幾個擴建基地的選址，我們以為這樣子的討論會延伸，不論選擇在哪裡，臺灣要作為一個國會的民主表徵，他能夠成為民主監督的基地，可以成為公民社會陳抗的場域，可以成為臺灣民主教育的空間，能夠成為國會外交的場址，可以成為民主觀光的景點。當初這是游院長提出來的幾個宏觀的vision，但是到韓院長任內，他一再推給黨團來協商，再來討論後續，但是黨團要不要協商是韓院長你要不要主持啊！韓院長就把立法院的擴建、遷建這個時代的使命推給黨團協商，而他本人不開協商，然後連帶影響立法院已經編列的709萬的先期規劃評估報告一直暫緩執行到現在，所以擴遷建的爭議，我們需要有宏觀、遠見的立院院長來持續的擘劃，擴大公共的討論。很可惜，那個具有宏觀、遠見的立院院長不是韓國瑜。","我昨天在會議上也對召委提出詢問，如果周萬來秘書長成了周不來，我們這個會期要解凍預算，那立法院的解凍預算不解凍了嗎？雖然立法院的解凍預算金額不高，好像只有八百多萬，但是循程序，秘書長還是要列席，而我這邊具體針對立法院預算執行的爭議，我也想要就教周萬來秘書長，我相信他現在正在看直播，立法院一直惡砍、惡刪其他憲法機關的預算、其他政院部會的預算，可是韓院長花錢不手軟，用公帑來做個人的人情，院長不折不扣就是康樂股長。","我們來看看，這張照片是國民黨的委員在社群上po出的，他很開心的說，韓院長很體恤立法院的職工、員工，買了五星級晶華酒店的月餅禮盒，每一盒高達1,380元，立法院的職員工有1,149位，換算出來這一個花大錢來做人情的花費就高達159萬，我們認為職員工都很辛苦，可是過去沒有任何一個院長花這麼大的金額，一次性的，而且是五星級的月餅，這是對應於我們在惡砍、惡刪其他院預算的同時間，立法院長可以這樣大手筆的花錢，然後容許我們持續的去惡砍別人的預算嗎？","預算的爭議還有一個，即立法院的電梯，中興大樓的3座電梯一直故障，怎麼修怎麼故障，韓院長很重視，所以要編預算再來修，我們支持，因為這涉及安全，立法院的預算這麼多，可是我赫然發現立法院要修電梯啟動的二備金2,350萬是要求行政院支應，立法院修電梯自己不掏錢，拗行政院買單，而這個時刻還是立法院在大砍行政院預算的時間，這樣的預算爭議，立法院花不起這筆錢嗎？周萬來秘書長在直播的另一邊，您好好思索這個問題，希望您以書面回答。","我也要請立法院秘書長以書面回答，當我們砍監察院的預算，砍了97%，監察院連買衛生紙都綁手綁腳，可是立法院添購新的設備卻是大手大腳、大手筆，我就發現最近立法院一直在換電視，我不曉得召委還有在場的委員是不是有觀察到我們辦公室的電視一換再換，113年汰換一次，花了將近160萬，114年又編了將近125萬加36萬，要再換100臺電視，電視都壞光了嗎？為什麼一直大手筆的在花錢呢？我自己辦公室的電視都還可以觀看，都還很新，為什麼要花這些冤枉錢？","再來是電話，我赫然發現立法院編列預算汰換電話2,900臺以及行動分機500臺要花公帑6,899萬，當我們大砍其他部會預算的時候，我們自己買電視、換電話，這樣子的預算執行爭議，請周萬來秘書長用書面答復。","第三個主題是今天召委排的主題，小心匪諜就在立法院，這絕對是嚴肅的國安漏洞。公民監督聯盟所票選出來2024立法院代表字居然是「匪」，共匪的這個「匪」，代表共諜是不是滲透進入了立法院，這已經成為社會高度關注的議題。","袁紅冰教授去年已經點出習近平下達指示，在立法院的新國會鎖定韓國瑜、鎖定傅崐萁乃至於附隨組織黃國昌，只要能夠影響這3人，戰場就在立法院。不論是以查弊案之名來破壞臺灣的國防自主或經濟安全，或者是用國會改革的名義來遂行國會的擴權，讓立法院成為臺灣實體政治權力最大的舞臺，當然還包括要強化跟中國的統戰互動等等，袁紅冰教授作家所說的每一件事情都應驗了。","所以，共諜的爭議無所不在，無孔不入，國會極有可能是破口，我們上週排的法務部專案報告，吳宗憲委員所排的，法務部所提出來的匪諜滲透破口沒有辦法提到立法院，因為立法院要自我課責，自己保密防諜！但是共諜的事件層出不窮，在立法院是不分黨派的。藍白委員最近都在打2025年4月發生的前院長游錫堃辦公室助理涉及向中共洩漏立法院的相關機密，當然該辦，有共諜一定要辦，不分黨派！但是藍、白的委員不要忘了，2020年立委陳淑慧的前助理、立委張麗善的前助理都涉犯了共諜案；2024年，李尚典、郭佩金兩位涉及收受中國的資助為立委鄭天財助選，免費招待選民赴中旅遊；2024年8月民眾黨的發言人桃園黨部馬治薇收受中國資助百萬參選立委；這不都是共諜滲透的明證嗎？更不要說陳玉珍號稱他的助理游智彬有中國籍，還來大鬧國會。所以要查共諜，不分黨派都有被滲透的可能，或是現在進行式，大家修法、立法要一起來。","我具體的提出，現在公部門對於公務人員的查核具結，或者是情治人員、國安人員、資安院人員有不同的查核跟調查程序、分級、分類，立法院目前沒有任何查核或具結的機制，請在線上觀看直播的周萬來秘書長好好研議一套國會如何防範共諜的自我課責跟相關內規，這是立法院要做的事，不分黨派都要來做。","民進黨在這裡宣示，民進黨會先行就赴中登載公開揭露這件事情，在立委的層次，我們修的兩岸人民關係條例、港澳人民關係條例等等，已經被藍白聯手擋了363次，如果說連立委赴中登載也一再被擋，未來如果要擴及立委的團隊、助理，恐怕在立法院也很難過關！但是民進黨團會先行，我們已經啟動研議，針對民進黨團的立委或助理群，我們研議以簽同意書做到主動揭露赴中相關資訊，希望能夠藉由這樣子一個動作──公開登載，能夠達到事前報備、事後報告，做很多防止共諜滲透的可能性的防範。所以藍白不做的，民進黨團會先行！但是我剛剛就教於周萬來秘書長的，立法院如何建立一個內部自我管控、自我課責，國會的自律，針對防止共諜滲透這件事情，請立法院要以書面報告來答復委員會。","最後，我用1分鐘的時間，我要代表柯建銘總召，他已經針對周萬來秘書長、高百祥議事處長還有郭明政法制局長，具體提出刑事告發，而告發的理由當然奠基於這一年來被告周萬來、高百祥身為立法院重要行政幕僚，本應依公務員服務法及相關職責確保議事程序之中立、公正與合法，惟兩人明知議事規則之適用，卻蓄意濫權，怠忽職務，協助違反議事正常運作，並縱容議事失序，進而造成國會內部的民主癱瘓，立委投票權也屢屢遭受非法妨礙。因此，柯建銘總召對於上述三位提出了刑法第一百三十條公務員廢弛職務釀成災害罪提起刑事告發。所以這個告發已經提出，不管是公務員要送公懲會懲戒，或者是進行司法後續的告發跟偵辦，我想民進黨團針對的不是個人，我們針對的是對國會的民主制度。","最後也要請教召委，我看到吳宗憲召委已經排了下週的議程，如果周萬來所引用的立法院各委員會組織法第二條成立的話，吳宗憲下週不能排任何一個未經院會交付的專題報告，可是他禮拜一跟禮拜三都排了專題報告，如果韓國瑜引用的條文成立的話，吳宗憲召委也不得邀請擔任幕僚長的總統府秘書長、國安會秘書長列席司法及法制委員會，所以這不是雙標，什麼是雙標？這不是藍白要的什麼都可以、少數黨所排的案一律都封殺？如果這樣，下禮拜這幾個秘書長是不是也可以如同周萬來秘書長一樣，不請假就不來開會？這樣的專案報告是不是就不能成立、不能成會？我們不能監督、不能質詢、不能討論了呢？所以這是一個非常嚴正的提問，我也在這裡結束我今天三次會議集合一次的質詢，我們希望列為議事紀錄，希望在線上觀看的周秘書長，好好的以書面報告回答今天本席所提出來的相關問題。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員。","跟委員會報告，接下來請沈發惠委員，沈發惠委員不發言，沈發惠委員提書面。","所有登記委員都已經發言完畢，委員質詢要求提供的相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","委員陳培瑜、沈發惠所提書面質詢均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":172,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-14","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","沈發惠"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請立法院秘書長、議事處處長、法制局局長列席就「防止立法院成為國安破口─ 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各位委員 有請部長還有能源署署長部長好 辛苦了今天談這個再生能源發展條例的條文修正我要談的主要是再生能源之中的低熱能"},{"start":37.315,"end":51.205,"text":"那地熱能指源自地表以下蘊含於土壤岩石蒸氣或溫泉之能源那我主要是談這個溫泉跟溫泉有關的這個地熱能這個"},{"start":55.034,"end":83.052,"text":"地熱電廠進駐部落原住民的部落這個相關的這些統計經濟部地熱裝置延命會的統計是全國有六成七在延鄉部落這樣的一個這麼大的比例延鄉已經出現翻天覆地的變化我們看這個台灣地圖我們看這個台灣地圖裡面"},{"start":84.488,"end":94.413,"text":"地熱能目前地熱發電案的這些六成七就在我們的鹽鄉部落"},{"start":99.295,"end":118.064,"text":"我們看再生能源發展條例第十四條第二項設置再生能源發電設備與原住民族土地或部落及其周邊一定範圍內之公有土地者應依原住民族基本法第二十一條規定辦理這裡面談的是再生能源發電設備請問這個署長"},{"start":123.328,"end":141.421,"text":"所以那個起地熱的那個位置就不算?鑽井的地方是算的,鑽井的地方跟發電的地方都是屬於發電設備的一部分現在就出現在這個研究法21條"},{"start":143.871,"end":166.197,"text":"因為這個當然跟經濟部沒有關係啊當時被這個誤解了這條條文啊因為這條條文是我在第八屆的時候提出來修正的所以不包含這個私有土地是其實是錯誤的這個當然跟你們沒有關係啊好再次認為發展條例第十五條之五"},{"start":166.843,"end":191.621,"text":"也規定申請地熱能探勘席可或開發席可之內容涉及這個原住民族土地或部落及其作為一定範圍內之公有土地者申請的應以申請前依研究法21條規定辦理所以這個探勘席可就包含這個就是地熱的那個位置嘛是吧包括鑽井的位置 鑽井的位置嘛"},{"start":192.102,"end":214.578,"text":"所以他不是只有在他那個那個那個廠房的地方嗎是是包含所以這個部分這個要把它釐清所以你們在在處理的時候因為你們核准都是你們所以這個部分是要把它弄清楚因為基本上那個"},{"start":216.534,"end":231.514,"text":"溫泉因為我講的是溫泉跟地熱因為地熱屬於溫泉知道嗎是地熱屬於溫泉所以這樣一個情形之下那個專警或是探勘"},{"start":233.643,"end":260.561,"text":"很少在私有土地,都是在公有土地基本上是這樣所以這個部分在審核的時候務必要讓業者能夠了解接下來這是我們需要去努力的地方也希望朝這個方向等一下條文我也給部長還有署長看"},{"start":263.976,"end":276.164,"text":"在紐西蘭台灣跟紐西蘭差不多一樣大部分地熱都是在原住民族的土地上所以這個紐西蘭一開始也是發生了很大的激烈抗爭"},{"start":278.105,"end":302.706,"text":"紐西蘭政府因應這些地熱的開發所以它這個建立了一個夥伴關係信託模式股份的讓一所以紐西蘭地熱發電占比從7%攀升到20%所以它有這樣的一個怎麼樣讓一個地熱開發能夠有效然後不要影響到我們"},{"start":303.627,"end":329.752,"text":"原住民族的部落那當然就是要諮商同意那相關的這些開發的這些利益怎麼樣回饋給部落所以這個部分這個是我們要努力的地方然後怎麼樣去因應去修法這個都是有它的必要性好也有可以是不是可以直接試用我接下來看"},{"start":331.67,"end":360.684,"text":"过去我在中央人民会服务的时候去协调同样是经济部的单位的水利署当时来我来看温泉法第三条温泉最后一句话温泉的定义包括地热蒸汽地热然后现在就是这个第八款温泉使用事业指温泉起工事业温泉起工事业第七款"},{"start":361.705,"end":362.293,"text":"二字指"},{"start":363.314,"end":392.34,"text":"溫泉啟工事業是以啟得溫泉水錢或礦業錢提供自己或他人使用的事業溫泉使用事業指溫泉啟工事業獲得溫泉作為地熱利用啊作為地熱利用啊因為這個法不是農研署的法啊所以你們沒有接觸過啊所以我現在把這個這樣的一個啊法律讓這個署長那個了解讓部長那個了解啊"},{"start":393.103,"end":418.182,"text":"好 接下來溫泉法第十一條當初我協調後來在立法院也三讀通過的條文啊這裡面就提到這個像溫泉企工失業收起的這個溫泉使用費啊由那個經濟部訂然後呢 第二項溫泉使用費"},{"start":420.217,"end":446.353,"text":"除支付管理費用外因專攻溫泉資源保育所以要把這些溫泉啟用費要提撥到原住民族綜合發展基金作為原住民族發展經濟及文化產業之用所以這個部分怎麼樣在還沒有再生能源發展條例還沒有修之前"},{"start":447.347,"end":474.146,"text":"是不是可以用這個條文因為現在正在開發現在開始了所以這個部分署長你跟這個跟那個水利署因為我公務員出身就是跟水利署是謝謝委員這個我想我們研究一下然後再請教這個委員你過去的經驗大家來努力朝這個方向來做好謝謝謝謝委員好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":299,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（9時54分）主席、各位委員。有請部長及能源署署長。"],["主席：請郭部長及李代理署長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好、署長好，辛苦了。大家辛苦了！今天談再生能源發展條例修正案，我要談的主要是再生能源之中的地熱能，地熱能的定義是指源自地表以下蘊含於土壤、岩石、蒸氣或溫泉之能源，而我主要是談與溫泉有關的地熱能。","根據地熱電廠進駐原住民部落的相關統計，以經濟部地熱裝置來說，原民會的統計是全國有六成七設在原鄉部落，這麼大的比例，原鄉已經出現翻天覆地的變化。部長，請看螢幕上的簡報，以這張臺灣地圖來說，我們可以看到臺灣地圖上標註地熱發電案場的現況，有六成七就在我們的原鄉部落。再生能源發展條例第十四條第二項規定「設置再生能源發電設備於原住民族土地或部落及其周邊一定範圍內之公有土地者，應依原住民族基本法第二十一條規定辦理。」這裡面談的是再生能源發電設備，請問署長，取地熱的那個位置就不算？還是有包含？"],["李代理署長君禮：算，鑽井的地方是算的，鑽井的地方跟發電的地方都是屬於發電設備的一部分。"],["鄭天財Sra 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我想請一下郭志輝郭部長"},{"start":19.301,"end":46.567,"text":"委員長部長好因為剛剛有好多委員都提到了5月17號之後台灣就變非核家園的一個環境那因為核管法確實立法院也在修那我絕對認為也尊重您剛剛提到一個點就是說公務人員一定是依法行政依法在辦事這絕對是沒有問題的一個天條謝謝委員是 那我想請教一下就是說因為如果說現在核管法立法院通過的時候"},{"start":47.347,"end":75.198,"text":"那我們如果說要到河山研議這過程當中最快大概多久可以完成因為我記得之前在幾個月前的時候曾經有官員提到說河管法過了之後呢到核電廠要研議的時候還要好幾年的時間那我不知道經濟部對於這個部分有沒有更精準的一個估算過就說我們河管法過了之後到核電廠要研議"},{"start":76.579,"end":79.005,"text":"大概最快多久的時間可以達成"},{"start":80.172,"end":108.011,"text":"如果按照我們以前的資料來顯示就是合法通過了那我們要確認這個機組是不是可以再run多久這個是一個非常重要的命題因為以前的設計是40年現在要延到60年那我們想60年因為每一個就是好像說每一個設備都有它自己運作的狀況所以雖然其他的國家他們延到60年也有延到80年的"},{"start":109.352,"end":126.157,"text":"那因為每一台機組運轉的這個情況不會一樣所以我們還要經過檢查這個設備他要先檢查然後來判斷來確定他確實可以營造20年那這個這一段期間他當然就是不能夠正常的來這個發電"},{"start":127.857,"end":148.663,"text":"那麼根據以前的經驗上面來看光是這一個確認都要一年多也許現在的國外的資料裡面顯示也許可以快一點我想這一點就像大家所知道說有很多的民主國家願意來幫忙我們來把他們的經驗"},{"start":151.704,"end":180.556,"text":"其實我可以理解就是說我們核管法如果過了之後我們經濟部有能力比方說在一年左右的時間或者以內就能夠讓核電廠研議我可以這麼理解你的語言嗎這個還有另外一個我要跟委員報告因為我們因為過去的這個法令那5月17號你一定要下載那在這個情況下因為我們的右原料是那個核電的那個原料棒原料棒基本上都是Telemed"},{"start":181.356,"end":199.308,"text":"都是定做的那你現在我們過去的量5月17要下下來大概我們的量大概就是5月底不會再多啦所以我們要新的燃料棒過來大概還需要多少時間以後要一年多的檢驗各種確認沒問題了以後也許在那個時候"},{"start":203.547,"end":228.128,"text":"我們這邊可以做的一件事情就是說只要一通過那麼事實上我們就可以去訂這個燃料棒就是檢查認為說可以了我們訂盡量趕快去訂燃料棒但是跟委員報告就是我們所知道的現在的燃料棒因為那個是要不是一次訂一個規格每一支都不一樣的"},{"start":230.37,"end":249.284,"text":"所以要16到18個月要16到18個月所以說兩個部分把它綜合起來的時候就是說我們如果比方說雙軌進行同時檢查就是核電廠的部分然後同時去訂燃料棒我們最快的時間就是16到18個月才能夠重啟"},{"start":250.848,"end":278.807,"text":"這也是最理想的狀況就是說那個設備檢查沒有問題然後我們又可以買到這個燃料棒這樣子我們就很清楚就是說就是我們核管打如果過了之後以經濟部最快的部分我們雙管齊下的時候同時檢查就是核電廠的狀態然後同時去訂新的燃料棒的時候我們最快綜合起來就16到18個月有可能這可以重新發電"},{"start":279.868,"end":305.537,"text":"最快的速度是這樣子嘛 對不對那我在想說我們當然還有 還缺一個啦因為這個核的發電的部分有一個所謂國際同儕審查啦是 理解不是我們自己說OK就OK啦理解 理解這個也是行政的程序嘛所以說聽起來最客觀上的點最樂觀的數字可能是就16到18個月要重新訂核那個燃料棒的問題這是樂觀啦 樂觀 理解"},{"start":306.437,"end":323.045,"text":"所以說它包括我們進一步國內的行政程序還有國際這邊的一個檢驗的部分的時候我們最快三個因素綜合起來就是核管法如果過之後我們能夠最快的時間就是16到18個月能夠重新再發展"},{"start":324.345,"end":345.343,"text":"發核電嘛 對不對 你剛剛提這三個因素是這樣子那這沒問題 因為我在想說這至少就是有 台灣至少會有16到18個月左右的時間 其實是一個非核家園的一個狀態其實沒有核電的一個情況所以我們市長對所有的那個供電 所有的委員其實都擔心這段時間供電會不會有問題不會有問題嗎不會有問題 因為我們有這個大潭的7號7號機還有這個"},{"start":352.122,"end":365.672,"text":"是都有補啦 理解興達的一號二號機都上來了上來的量比那個河山的下去的量要多很多那我今天我想請教一個因為就4月22號的時候我們大林那個5號那個"},{"start":370.585,"end":382.556,"text":"電 發電機又重新啟動啦那經濟部這邊當然講了一個情況是因為調度的狀態因為大陵五號機其實已經是一個廚藝的一個天然氣的發電機組那為什麼在這個時間點的時候又緊急去啟動它"},{"start":388.764,"end":408.286,"text":"報委員那個是基本上我剛才有跟大家報告我們政府所做所為一切都是在法令規定之內來做雖然它那個是備用的一個發電機組然後在啟動也是在法律的允許之內我們去啟動"},{"start":409.551,"end":432.858,"text":"理解你講這兩個點我覺得都沒有問題就是說在法令的允許因為它其實是屬於現在我們的一個緊急備用電力的設施因為它已經除以了所以算是一個緊急備用的電力設施那它原則上按照電力設施空氣污染物排放標準這樣的一個機制當中第二條第一項第11款裡面"},{"start":433.418,"end":447.784,"text":"他有特別提到說針對緊急備用電力設施的時候他是專用於供電系統跳電限電期間或其他為維護維持供電系統正常運轉這個部分所以事實上他有設定的時間那因為大齡"},{"start":450.245,"end":473.813,"text":"就是電廠的5號機組他除役了之後他去年也曾經緊急動用過一次那今年又緊急動用過一次所以我們事實上就擔心在整個的電的調度當中的時候是不是很吃緊才會把一個已經除役的大林5號機組又重新把它啟用起來可以請部長回答一下嗎"},{"start":475.153,"end":490.612,"text":"那個是一個我們在假設的狀況它會重啟所以我們一定要維修啦那個機器可能要維修然後也要試運轉啦那是試運轉我們怕真正用的時候它轉不起來所以我們要試運轉好那我想說這個部分因為"},{"start":491.653,"end":512.455,"text":"這跟我們台電公告的資料當中因為沒有特別講到私運轉那我想說如果確實是這樣子的時候那我們希望之後在公告所有的細節的時候能夠更精準一點就是不要造成民眾的誤會因為去年大零五號機也緊急動用過一次那今年又緊急動用過一次所以我們就想說哇 是不是電力很吃緊才會出現這樣的一個情況"},{"start":514.737,"end":536.154,"text":"我們會動用當然是在吃緊的狀況但是那一次不是吃緊那個是在Test running因為去年722也發生一次今年422又發生一次對啦 就是吃緊當然也是要因應吃緊所以有一些是模擬的狀況看到我們真的吃緊我們現在還是有我們那個有到8%日間有10% 月間有7%"},{"start":541.385,"end":564.264,"text":"日間有10%然後夜間有7%的餘量這個各位可以打開台電的網站裡面都可以看得到我們現在的發電餘量有多少部長我在想說其實所有的委員跟整個經濟部跟所有的國人其實都擔心的是台灣供電夠不夠的問題所以我們一定是希望台灣的供電是夠的能夠一直符合產業上的一個需求"},{"start":564.924,"end":593.501,"text":"我們現在電是夠的但是比較可惜是我們缺的綠電我們綠電還要再趕還要再加強一下子所以說我們今天主席也特別安排了一個我們再生能源發展條例的一個一個詢答所以我最後就問一個問題就是說因為我們現在整個再生條例的一個部分這一次的一個修正當中有幾個點第一個就是很確定讓所有權能或管理人他要負擔起這個責任"},{"start":594.481,"end":617.459,"text":"那他如果沒有去做的時候到的時候沒有拆除的時候他可能會有一個罰款的一個問題那我想請教因為一般大型的這個光電廠大概都沒有問題基本上都可以符合那我擔心的其實是有一些屋頂型的因為這次也規範在這裡頭那屋頂型一般它規模比較小那我想請教一下因為之前很多屋頂型的業者他在當時設這個"},{"start":619.02,"end":642.585,"text":"屋頂型太陽能面板的時候都被說服說第一個就說可以省電嘛這是一個最基本的原則然後第二個就提到說他們其實可以隔熱然後可以防漏水所以如果時間到了應該要被強制拆除的時候那屋主他可能就是一般的老百姓他們不想要強制拆除想要繼續留著可不可以"},{"start":643.625,"end":644.946,"text":"每千瓦一千元"},{"start":670.141,"end":683.289,"text":"每千瓦一千元每千瓦一千元嘛齁這個部分現在是能源署這邊在收還是環境部在收法令規定是環境部由能源署代收現在由環境部OK那個有報告"},{"start":684.034,"end":699.801,"text":"能源署代收嘛 環境部要求要成立一個回收基金對不對因為環境部的那個基金還沒有法源建立之前先由能源署代收到再生能源發展基金未來環境部有法源可以收的時候我們再把錢還給環境部"},{"start":701.101,"end":715.409,"text":"OK 理解那我就要問一個狀態就是說像比方說我們這個回收的這個款項這個模組的回收費用當中的時候含不含一般民眾因為你要拆除屋頂上的部分它有很高的一個成本"},{"start":716.314,"end":744.124,"text":"那拆除的費用算不算可以動用在這回收那模組回收的費用裡頭拆除是業者的責任要由業者負責拆除拆除後才由環境部這個基金來處理所以就表示說拆除的部分的時候對於很多民眾來說如果他是屋頂上行的時候他們得要自己去拆除對不對這個費用很大所以我在想說因為這是一般光電其實是20年到30年的問題"},{"start":744.904,"end":757.999,"text":"所以20年前設置的人其實跟30年之後他要去拆除的人其實可能是不一樣的人所以我們針對這個拆除的成本的部分有沒有可能在我們的回收模組當中給予一定的一個支持"},{"start":759.304,"end":788.01,"text":"基本上他可以繼續使用那未來如果壞了他也可以做維修但是如果最後壞掉要拆除的時候那要由裝置的人來負責那這個就看他跟當時太陽光電廠商有沒有去簽合約的內容就是因為二三十年前的事情裝置的人可能跟現在的一個我們法定規定的負責的人已經不一樣了所以這邊就會有一個問題所以我們希望我們在立這個法的時候也能更細緻的去把這個部分考慮進來好不好"},{"start":790.984,"end":792.692,"text":"我們可以做參考OK 好 謝謝部長 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":236,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（9時41分）謝謝主席，我想請郭智輝部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。因為剛剛有好多委員都提到5月17日之後，臺灣就變成一個非核家園的環境，因為核管法確實立法院也在修，我絕對認為也尊重你剛剛提到的一個點，就是公務人員一定是依法行政、依法在辦事，這絕對是沒有問題的一個天條。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["鄭委員正鈐：如果核管法於立法院通過之後，到核三延役的過程當中，最快大概多久可以完成？因為我記得在幾個月前的時候，曾經有官員提到核管法過了之後，到核電廠要延役還要好幾年的時間，我不知道經濟部對於這個部分有沒有更精準的估算？核管法通過了之後，到核電廠延役大概最快多久的時間可以達成？"],["郭部長智輝：如果按照我們以前的資料顯示，核管法通過了，我們要確認這個機組可以再run多久，這個是一個非常重要的命題，因為以前的設計是40年，現在要延到60年，每一個設備都有其運作的狀況，所以雖然其他的國家延到60年，也有延到80年，因為每一台機組運轉的情況不會一樣，所以我們還要經過檢查，這個設備要先檢查，然後來判斷、確定它確實可以延到20年，這一段期間它當然不能夠正常來發電。根據以前的經驗來看，光是確認都要一年多，現在國外的資料顯示也許可以快一點，我想這一點就像大家所知道的，有很多的民主國家願意來幫忙我們，把他們的經驗跟我們分享。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以我可以理解成核管法如果通過之後，經濟部有能力在一年左右的時間或者以內，就能夠讓核電廠延役，我可以這麼理解你的語言？"],["郭部長智輝：這個還有另外一個問題，我要跟委員報告，因為過去的法令，5月17日一定要下載，在這個情況下，因為我們的鈾原料，就是核電的原料棒，基本上都是tailor-made、訂做的，我們過去的量，就是5月17日下載，我們的量大概就到5月底，不會再多。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理瞭，所以我們要買新的燃料棒回來，大概還需要多少時間？"],["郭部長智輝：下載確認以後要一年多的檢驗，各種確認沒有問題以後，也許在那個時候，我們這邊可以做一件事情就是只要一通過，事實上我們就可以去訂燃料棒，檢查之後認為可以了，我們儘量趕快去訂燃料棒。但是跟委員報告，現在的燃料棒並非一次訂一個規格，而且每一支都不一樣……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["郭部長智輝：所以要16到18個月。"],["鄭委員正鈐：要16到18個月？所以綜合這兩個部分，若雙軌進行，同時檢查核電廠，同時訂燃料棒，最快也要16到18個月時間才能重啟電廠？"],["郭部長智輝：這是最理想的狀況，也就是設備檢查沒有問題，我們又可以買到燃料棒……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，謝謝部長，沒有問題。但這樣一來就很清楚了，也就是說，核管法通過之後，經濟部以最快的速度雙管齊下，同時檢查核電廠的狀態，同時訂新的燃料棒，綜合起來最快需要16到18個月才有可能重啟發電，最快的速度是這樣子，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：其實我們還缺一個，即核能發電有所謂的國際同儕審查……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解、理解。"],["郭部長智輝：不是我們自己說OK就OK了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解、理解。"],["郭部長智輝：其他……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這也是行政的程序，所以聽起來最客觀的點……"],["郭部長智輝：最樂觀的數字可能是……"],["鄭委員正鈐：16到18個月，還有要重新訂燃料棒的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：這是比較樂觀的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。所以包括經濟部及國內的行政程序，還有國際檢驗這部分，綜合這三個因素，在核管法通過之後，最快16到18個月能夠重新重啟核電，對不對？你剛剛提到的三個因素是這樣子，我想這沒問題，至少臺灣會有16到18個月左右的時間是非核家園的狀態，也就是沒有核電。因此，所有委員其實都很擔心這段時間的供電會不會有問題？不會有問題嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不會有問題，因為大潭七號機，還有……"],["鄭委員正鈐：都有補上來？理解。"],["郭部長智輝：興達一號、二號機都上來，且上來的量比核三所下去的量要多很多。"],["鄭委員正鈐：4月22號大林五號機重新啟動，經濟部說是調度，但大林五號機其實是已經除役的天然氣發電機組，請問為什麼會在這個時間點緊急啟動？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，剛才有跟大家報告，政府所作所為都在法令規定之內……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["郭部長智輝：雖然那是備用的發電機組，但啟動亦在法律允許之內去啟動。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，你講的這兩個點我覺得都沒有問題。也就是在法令的允許下，它現在屬於緊急備用電力設施，畢竟已經除役了，所以算是緊急備用的電力設施。按照電力設施空氣污染物排放標準第二條第一項第十一款特別提到「緊急備用電力設施：……專用於供電系統跳電、限電期間或其他為維持供電系統正常運轉之機組」，所以有設定時間。在大林電廠五號機除役之後，去年曾經緊急動用過一次，今年又緊急動用一次，所以我們擔心電力的調度是不是很吃緊，才會把已經除役的大林五號機組又重新啟用？可不可以請部長回答一下？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，那是假設重啟的狀況，所以我們一定要維修機器，也要試運轉，以免真的要用的時候轉不起來，因此需要試運轉。"],["鄭委員正鈐：在台電公告的資料當中，並沒有特別講到試運轉，若確實是這樣子，那麼我們希望之後在公告所有細節時能更精準一點，不要造成民眾誤會。畢竟去年大林五號機也緊急動用過一次，今年又緊急動用，所以不免以為是不是電力很吃緊才會出現這樣的情況？"],["郭部長智輝：會動用當然是在吃緊的狀況，不過那一次不是吃緊，那是在test running。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為去年722發生一次，今年422又發生一次。"],["郭部長智輝：對，就是吃緊，當然也是為了因應吃緊，所以有一些模擬狀況。現在日間有10%，夜間有7%的餘量，各位到台電網站都可以看到現在的發電餘量有多少。"],["鄭委員正鈐：其實所有的委員、經濟部以及所有國人，都擔心臺灣供電夠不夠的問題，而我們希望臺灣的供電是夠的！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在……"],["鄭委員正鈐：能符合產業上的需求。"],["郭部長智輝：現在電是夠的，比較可惜是缺綠電，所以綠電還要再趕，還要再加強。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。今天主席特別安排再生能源發展條例修正案的詢答，我最後就問，這次再生能源發展條例的修正有幾個點，第一，確定讓所有權人或管理人負起責任，一旦沒做或時間到的時候沒有拆除可能會有罰款問題。我想請教，一般大型的光電廠大概沒問題，基本上都符合，所以我擔心的是屋頂型，這次也規範在裡頭。屋頂型的規模比較小，之前很多屋頂型業者在設置屋頂型太陽能面板時都說，其一，這可以省電，這是最基本的原則；其二，可以隔熱、防漏水，一旦使用時間到了，應該要被強制拆除，但屋主──可能就是一般的老百姓，他並不想強制拆除，想繼續留著，可不可以？"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["鄭委員正鈐：可以，是不是？OK，如果不想拆除要繼續留著，是可以的？"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["鄭委員正鈐：可以？OK。另外我想再請問有關光電板的處理問題，這其實跟環境部有很大關係，目前針對模組的回收怎麼收費？"],["郭部長智輝：每瓩1,000元。"],["鄭委員正鈐：每瓩1,000元？現在是由能源署收，還是環境部收？"],["李代理署長君禮：法令規定是環境部，由能源署代收。"],["鄭委員正鈐：現在是環境部，但由能源署代收，且環境部要求成立回收基金，對不對？"],["李代理署長君禮：在環境部的基金還沒有法源可建立之前，先由能源署代收到再生能源發展基金，未來環境部有法源可以收的時候，我們再把錢還給環境部。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，理解。我要問一個狀態，模組的回收款項、回收費用中，含不含一般民眾？因為要拆除屋頂上的模組，其實有很高的成本，所以拆除的費用算不算在回收的模組費用裡？"],["李代理署長君禮：拆除是業者的責任，由業者負責拆除，拆除後才由環境部的基金來處理。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這代表拆除時，如果是屋頂型的，對民眾來說就要自己拆除，對不對？畢竟費用很大。我在想，一般光電設置時間為二十年到三十年，所以二十年前設置的人跟三十年之後要去拆除的人，可能是不一樣的人！因此，針對拆除成本，有沒有可能在回收模組當中給予一定的支持？"],["李代理署長君禮：基本上可以繼續使用，未來如果壞了也可以維修，但最後壞掉要拆除時，就要由裝置的人負責，這就看有沒有和當時裝置的太陽能光電廠簽合約。"],["鄭委員正鈐：畢竟是二、三十年前的事，裝置的人可能跟現在法令規定的負責人不一樣了，所以這邊就會有問題。爰此，希望在立法時能更細緻地把這部分考慮進來，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：我們可以做為參考。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：現在請鄭天財委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","邱志偉","賴瑞隆","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","羅廷瑋","林岱樺"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、本院委員魯明哲等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第十三條條文修正草案」案；二、本\n院委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第十三條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1144501_00005"}}},{"id":"160852","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160852","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc06997a5e63c75c0b4f84b180731b6d64105daebae4db85f91dc95e5c9096b2c805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:29:46 - 09:46:22","影片長度":"00:16:36","會議時間":"2025-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【僅詢答】\n【4月30日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-01","start_time":"2025-05-01T09:29:46+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-01T09:46:22+08:00","duration":996,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-9"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.109718750000003,"end":12.282218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.16346875,"end":16.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16.21409375,"end":16.652843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.38284375,"end":18.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.652843750000002,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.762218750000002,"end":20.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.54659375,"end":31.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.789718750000002,"end":36.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.61596875,"end":45.610343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.812843750000006,"end":48.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.681593750000005,"end":56.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.86596875,"end":59.110343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.24534375,"end":60.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.35471875,"end":104.87534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":105.58409375000001,"end":122.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":122.54346875,"end":137.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":137.98409375,"end":161.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.63909375,"end":159.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.71471875,"end":160.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.52471875,"end":162.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.80721875,"end":180.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":180.96471875,"end":186.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":186.98909375000002,"end":208.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.10471875000002,"end":203.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":209.07846875,"end":215.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":216.38534375,"end":241.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.17659375000002,"end":229.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.42971875,"end":229.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":241.95096875000002,"end":243.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":244.29659375000003,"end":253.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.76784375000003,"end":255.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":254.80971875000003,"end":257.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.76284375,"end":258.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":258.06659375000004,"end":268.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.08346875,"end":258.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":269.27159375,"end":288.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":277.89471875000004,"end":278.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":288.07034375,"end":290.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":290.68596875000003,"end":290.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.93909375000004,"end":296.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":297.30096875000004,"end":336.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.68721875,"end":338.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":338.94846875,"end":340.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.80471875,"end":368.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.87221875,"end":340.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":340.93971875,"end":340.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.44596875,"end":376.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":376.63034375,"end":408.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":408.55784375,"end":436.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":436.50284375,"end":451.01534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":451.75784375,"end":451.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":451.77471875000003,"end":452.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":452.65221875000003,"end":457.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":457.76534375000006,"end":487.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":461.91659375,"end":463.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":488.10659375000006,"end":490.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":490.73909375000005,"end":502.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":500.25659375000004,"end":510.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":512.96346875,"end":513.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":513.70596875,"end":519.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":521.41784375,"end":522.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.1940937500001,"end":522.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.97034375,"e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你無法去正視他家屬也沒辦法正視他但是我們醫療人員 我們政府必須要幫他去正視他讓他能夠好好的過完末期 以及能夠善終所以我覺得政府跟相關的立法院 願意來討論這個題目個人站出來自我敬佩啦"},{"start":162.885,"end":185.046,"text":"法院依據合法的程序來確保醫生不受醫療過失的判決可是還是無法避免憤怒的家屬對醫師提告所以醫生一旦被告就是要花錢去請律師花錢去開庭對此衛福部能夠給醫生什麼樣的具體的支持這個跟委員報告一下這也是二三十年來"},{"start":187.408,"end":215.384,"text":"的一個大事情那在這的所有的委員尤其是蘇委員擔任那個立法 擔任那個醫師公會理事長的時候有時候這有時候兩派意見牽扯但是我們終是把醫療法修法變成那個醫療的一個合理行者合理化那這個就是說以前可能會面對防疫性的醫療但是因為這個 只要你好好的救病人"},{"start":217.231,"end":240.78,"text":"幾乎除了你有重大過失或錯誤不然是不會用行者加身所以那個時候就內外婦保科的住院醫師又通過了又上升了這樣子所以我們用各種法律然後再教育同時也讓民眾知道醫生是在幫你救你的命可能有兩成的救命機會"},{"start":242.04,"end":267.977,"text":"你說你要不要救病人家屬一定說一定要救啊可是八成是可能會他的疾病就是救不起來那就有八成的機會來告醫師啊那我說衛福部到底有沒有什麼具體的醫療行者合理化就是來保護這個啊就是這個已經做了很多的一個第一個這是第一個很重要的法案另外一個法案在前幾年通過的就是事故的一個"},{"start":272.687,"end":296.792,"text":"預防還有更調節就是要先調節讓醫師不要承受那麼大的壓力讓醫病能夠更和諧它是一個很光明的法案這兩個法案基本上是讓我們醫病在面對救命的時候能夠更和諧還是可以保障到醫生的權利嗎我問你第二個就是簽署人的資格民法第一"},{"start":298.033,"end":322.152,"text":"14條的第一項規定自然人如果精神障礙或心智缺陷的話不能跟他人溝通或不了解表達意思的話法院得為監護宣告可113年受監護宣告的人總數事實上是6047人其中18歲以上的有5999人其中以社會福利機構為監護人的有10件所以監護人有執行受監護的生活醫療照護跟財產管理的職務請問一下當"},{"start":326.295,"end":335.813,"text":"成年的病患本身意識不清楚的時候經法院為監護宣告的監護人依法可以為病患簽署安寧"},{"start":341.574,"end":357.04,"text":"我要講的是說安寧這邊的話其實他要啟動的這邊其實必須要經由就是說至少前面要有兩個專科醫師確認他默契他這一個所謂的安寧意願書由那個監護人簽署才會有效"},{"start":357.62,"end":375.802,"text":"然後可是在那個病人自主這邊的話他還是會回到了一個病人自主的一個前提在病人沒有表達意願就是他在意識狀況沒有沒有這麼重大改變之前沒有表示過任何意願的時候這個監護人其實他沒有辦法決定以上"},{"start":376.647,"end":378.448,"text":"那根據我們的健保署的分析在死亡前一個月內接受安寧療護的話"},{"start":392.137,"end":410.207,"text":"每個人可以減少到三萬兩千元的醫療支出如果去死亡前六個月接受安寧照護的話每個人可以減少到十萬七千元的醫療支出那育立醫療決定書也可以達到這樣的效果那育立醫療照護諮商一個案子"},{"start":411.536,"end":434.764,"text":"民眾要自費三千元就是要自己花三千元對多數人來講事實上是貴的所以去年七月我覺得衛福部也推出了一個育立醫療照護諮商推廣的獎勵計畫針對低收跟中低收的特定對象來提供免費的諮商服務可是看起來數據推了一年大概從兩萬四增加到兩萬五"},{"start":436.567,"end":460.559,"text":"沒有很顯著的提升啦所以想問一下花三千元可以省下大筆的醫療費用衛健保的財務永續衛福部一定會往這個方向推動可是去年推動的不利的原因是什麼因為增加不多好當然我們做調查包委員當然我們做調查的時候的確為什麼不簽民眾寫出來的原因當然就是說因為職場費用是蠻高的"},{"start":465.701,"end":487.348,"text":"我記得剛開始推出來的時候我們立法院好幾個委員都跑去台大醫院真的去做諮商那個我很敬佩他們就花幾千塊去做但是其實對一般的民眾來講的確是很負擔所以我們去年七月還有五月一號會擴大來讓更多的希望"},{"start":488.248,"end":510.745,"text":"有更多的機會來讓病人來簽那當然怎麼樣我們要去了解原因那衛生署也一直在請協界這邊了解原因是 那部長你如果講說今天新聞報導也說5月7號要擴大啦所以你今年的預例醫療註記的人身要提升你目標是多少"},{"start":513.772,"end":521.868,"text":"今年你的預歷醫療助計的人數也要提升嘛齁你目標是多少希望"},{"start":523.685,"end":540.84,"text":"我補充一下這個吼我們會希望是說現在大概一年兩萬左右能夠透過今年因為才只有半年的執行期所以能夠就是加倍到四萬左右是我們的目標然後那剛剛那個委員槌尋的是說推廣這一塊的話其實我們發現是說民眾的認知跟我們傳統習"},{"start":546.805,"end":572.399,"text":"習俗文化的這個禁錮其實還是一個主因另外一塊就是財務所以才會是從財務面的地方我們跟健保署合作推廣面的部分的話我們會跟長照室合作因為目前看到願意簽署的都是人生經驗裡面有一些相關的所以目前大概是50歲以上是我們的一個target以上謝謝市長安寧療護的概念早在"},{"start":573.154,"end":595.183,"text":"立法前台灣大概就已經開始在推動大概現在已經20年了而且使用率逐年增加那從2022年使用的大概達到6萬7病人死亡前的一年的安寧利用率的話大概30.4%那可是還是上市量能不足那所以整個"},{"start":596.283,"end":613.622,"text":"他事實上是透過多種專業來對病人跟家屬做整體的輔導那他同時也是生理心理的一個醫療可是這個項目真的蠻燒錢的所以對醫院來說如果不是為了評鑑加分的話誘因不大所以"},{"start":614.042,"end":638.687,"text":"因此安寧病床的床位不多而採用安寧共照來替代所以112年全國有86家醫院共計915床到114年的時候變成是85家醫院大概910床整個需求多床位少可是四病每一天大家都有人在排隊所以想問一下目前實際上的安寧病床到底病床數有多少"},{"start":640.087,"end":662.047,"text":"是的 薛委員 剛剛您報的就是現在的就是910嗎 整個不多 所以就會有跨科的做安寧供照所以目前安寧供照對病人 特別是家屬的照護能夠達到安寧病房的水準嗎 衛福部怎麼去確保這個水準因為不一樣啊"},{"start":662.788,"end":677.835,"text":"我想安寧共照是一個有一點點不得不的站在我們的文化跟民眾的需求所衍生出來的因為你如果叫他不要去住安寧病房這個就是一個很大的關卡但是他在"},{"start":678.815,"end":704.119,"text":"其實安寧反流醫療最好是越早啟動越好所以也許他已經在做反核性的化療那個時代那個時候就應該有加入安寧反流醫療團隊來跟你的病房跟你介紹什麼叫安寧有時候你跟這個A病床的人說結果是B病床的人聽一聽說那我要去安寧病房所以那個越早啟動的時候讓真的"},{"start":705.216,"end":717.551,"text":"病人可以規劃未來可以做的事情所以安寧的構造是非常重要的那安寧構造的團隊其實也花了非常大的心力他的效果當然是沒辦法像安寧病房這樣子整個團隊來給他"},{"start":725.02,"end":745.747,"text":"各方面全方位的一個照顧所以當然怎麼樣讓需要安寧病房的人能夠住進來當然這邊也要跟委員實際上報告雖然這麼多床但是很多醫院的安寧病床因為文化的問題他們可能還是希望病人還是希望跟家屬還是希望共照他們"},{"start":746.747,"end":768.813,"text":"不太願意到安寧病房來的所以我們的你去分析各個醫院的占床率就知道其實更重要的更重要的是要去推展民眾的觀念這樣子是可是基於病人自主醫療的權利保障跟善終的期望那又你整個安寧病房的量又不足"},{"start":769.253,"end":791.77,"text":"使用率低的狀況這種現實問題我相信衛福部有義務也有能力要把整個政策建構更完整所以病人運營安寧緩和醫療書跟預訂醫療決定書這一整套的制度連結分級醫療體系的醫院跟社區兩端所以社區單這邊也可以看到有在宅"},{"start":792.891,"end":803.654,"text":"在宅安寧跟我們的機構安寧這兩種在宅的醫療形式讓病人除了住院以外另外在社區中老那你的政策經費是111年的居家醫療的照護整合計畫的2.0113年是全民健康保險在宅急症照護的事辦計畫這兩個"},{"start":816.218,"end":839.982,"text":"計畫在支撐所以想問的是在不論長照老人還是護理之家在住宿型機構籌組照護團隊的服務機構內的病人對於機構品質的提升一定有比較正面的影響對機構病人分級醫療各方面都有一些注意本來就是應該要大力推動的政策可是政府一直在考一直沒有把一個人考慮進來就是沒有考慮住宿機構來籌組照護團隊的經營的壓力這像"},{"start":845.463,"end":874.262,"text":"服務對醫院來講就是賠錢在座了那對住宿型機構來講更是那醫生探視費呢健保支付如果給醫院1500為什麼給住宿型機構只有1200這有20%的落差是打擊士氣所以本期認為醫院跟住宿型機構各項的醫事人員的訪視費要一致啊請你推動這項訴求那你同意嗎就是大家應該都是一致的"},{"start":880.043,"end":897.12,"text":"這個我們已經通過下半年會來做這個安寧照護品質的平和 平和之後按照它的程度分別加成10% 20%跟30%那這個包含了住院的安寧 安寧共照跟居家安寧都適用"},{"start":897.56,"end":925.167,"text":"那另一方面我們下半年也會來檢討居家安寧的給付方式到底是要包月我們現在是論次那有沒有用包月的方式讓他更具彈性都會來檢討那至於在給付方面也一定朝向不同工不同酬的方式來思考所以下半年會開始去做規劃因為病人在住宿型機構發生醫療糾紛的時候勢必會大幅增加所以機構背後一定要有強大的支持系統也就是綠色通道所以"},{"start":926.387,"end":946.657,"text":"綠色通道除了提供緊急救援助援支援以外那人力技術也都是重要的一環所以衛福部是不是能夠確保機構具備有這項強大的後勤支援我想這是很重要要去努力的方向我們會一定來努力"},{"start":947.409,"end":965.331,"text":"所以最後麻煩我覺得我有三點訴求就是整個醫事的那個人員的支持方案面對病人的質疑跟訴訟我覺得還是要提供一些支持擴大育育醫療照護的諮商的全額補助對象今天應該也"},{"start":966.232,"end":991.515,"text":"得到你們的65歲以上都是提高我們住宿型機構的人士園的紡織費所以是不是下半年如果在討論的時候可能要考慮一下我剛剛講的是不是答案是同樣的綠色通道的糾紛 避免依舊的部分要為住宿型機構提供後勤的支持那麻煩這些是不是在後面提供 兩週內提供給我書面報告好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":166,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時29分）主席，麻煩邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。部長，你事實上是臺灣安寧療護的專家，安寧緩和醫療條例跟病人自主權利法這兩部法律，對於末期或不可逆、喪失神智的病人，透過病人跟家屬或他的意願代理人，預立安寧緩和醫療書或預立醫療決定書，要求醫生在往後的治療裡，不要用人工營養跟流體餵養、急救或者是維生醫療等，只是做維持心跳的無效醫療。但是安寧緩和醫療就非常挑戰我們的社會文化，所以在法律上要保護醫生，避免受到家屬的攻擊而受到傷害，而且要積極促進，以縮短病人的痛苦，減少我們醫療資源的浪費。","我想問部長，在程序上，病人自主並不是「只要我喜歡，有什麼不可以」，必須考量到病人本身、醫護人員、照顧者、家庭成員、重要他人的想法，是多方協調後的結果，可是還是會發生病人的決定，家屬事實上不認同，而跟醫生發生爭執的事件，尤其是在安寧療護的發生率更高，所以衛福部如何支持醫生、貫徹病人的決定做醫療？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員關心這麼重要的議題，也關心到生死大事。善終是國人五福臨門裡面最難達到的，所以我們全國……就像自主權法案，當時也是很辛苦，蘇委員跟劉召委在這裡，我想兩位召委都有貢獻，當時都是希望達到這樣的一個目標，這中間的確是有很……人面對生命的末期，死亡就好像一個很強烈的陽光，你無法去正視它，家屬也沒辦法正視它，但是我們醫療人員、我們政府必須要幫他去正視它，讓他能夠好好地過完末期以及能夠善終。所以我覺得政府跟相關的如立法院願意來討論這個題目，我個人站在……"],["林委員月琴：對，可是部長……"],["邱部長泰源：敬佩……"],["林委員月琴：有時候法院依據合法的程序來確保醫生不受醫療過失的判決，可是還是無法避免憤怒的家屬對醫師提告。醫生一旦被告，就是要花錢去請律師、花錢去開庭，對此，衛福部能夠給醫生什麼樣的具體支持？"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告，這也是二、三十年來醫界的一個大事情，在座的所有委員，尤其是蘇委員，擔任醫師公會理事長的時候，為了這個也被兩派意見折騰，但是我們最終把醫療法修法變成醫療的刑責合理化。也就是說，以前可能會面對防禦性的醫療，但是因為這個，只要他好好地救病人，除非他有重大過失或錯誤，不然不會用刑責加身，所以那個時候，內外婦兒科的住院醫師在通過以後又上升了。因此我們用各種法律，然後再教育，同時也讓民眾知道醫生是在救他的命，可能有兩成的救命機會，你說要不要救？病人家屬一定說一定要救啊！可是有八成可能他的疾病就是救不起來，就有八成的機會來告醫師，這是過去有的事情。"],["林委員月琴：對，衛福部到底有沒有什麼具體的……"],["邱部長泰源：醫療刑責合理化就是來保護這個啊！這個已經做了很多的……這是第一個很重要的法案，另外一個法案在前幾年通過的，就是事故的預防，也就是醫預法，包含預防跟調解，就是要先調解，讓醫師不要承受那麼大的壓力。"],["林委員月琴：好，部長……"],["邱部長泰源：讓醫病能夠更和諧，它是一個很光明的法案，這兩個法案基本上是讓醫病面對救命的時候能夠更和諧。"],["林委員月琴：還是可以保障到醫生的權利嘛！我問第二個，就是簽署人的資格，依民法第十四條第一項規定，自然人如果精神障礙或心智缺陷，致不能跟他人溝通或不了解其表達的意思，法院得為監護宣告。113年受監護宣告總數是6,047人，其中18歲以上有5,999人，其中以社會福利機構為監護人的有10件，監護人有執行受監護人生活、醫療照護及財產管理的職務。請問一下，當成年病患本身意識不清楚的時候，經法院為監護宣告的監護人，依法可以為病患簽署安寧意願書嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我請醫事司司長說明。"],["劉司長越萍：我要講的是，安寧部分的話，要啟動其實必須要經由……就是至少前面要有兩個專科醫師確認他末期，這個安寧意願書由監護人簽署才會有效；可是在病人自主部分的話，還是會回到病人自主的前提，在病人沒有表達意願，就是他在意識狀況沒有這麼重大改變之前，沒有表示過任何意願的時候，這個監護人其實沒有辦法決定，以上。"],["林委員月琴：好，我覺得衛福部也應該要去評估一下監護人到底是不是具有這樣的權利，到逐條討論的時候，你們可以再說明。","根據健保署的分析，在死亡前一個月內接受安寧療護的話，每個人可以減少約3萬2,000元的醫療支出；如果死亡前六個月接受安寧照護的話，每個人可以減少約10萬7,000元的醫療支出。預立醫療決定書也可以達到這樣的效果，預立醫療照護諮商一個案子民眾要自費3,000元，就是要自己花3,000元，對多數人來講，事實上是貴的。去年7月衛福部也推出了一個預立醫療照護諮商推廣獎勵計畫，針對低收、中低收等特定對象提供免費的諮商服務，可是從數據看起來，推了一年，大概從二萬四增加到二萬五千人，沒有很顯著的提升，所以想問一下，花3,000元可以省下大筆的醫療費用，為了健保財務永續，衛福部一定會往這個方向推動，可是去年推動不利的原因是什麼？因為增加不多。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，當我們做調查的時候，為什麼不簽？民眾寫出來的原因，當然就是因為諮商費用……"],["林委員月琴：是滿高的。"],["邱部長泰源：有點負擔啦！我記得剛開始推出來的時候，立法院好幾個委員都跑去臺大醫院，真的去諮商，我很敬佩，他們花幾千塊去做了。但是其實對一般的民眾來講，的確是很有負擔，所以我們去年7月還有5月1號會擴大，希望有更多的機會讓病人來簽，當然，我們要去了解原因，衛生署也一直在請學界了解原因，來推動……"],["林委員月琴：是，部長，今天新聞報導也說5月1號要擴大，今年的預立醫療註記人數要提升，你的目標是多少？"],["劉司長越萍：我補充一下，現在大概一年2萬左右，因為只有半年的執行期，所以加倍到4萬左右是我們的目標。剛剛委員垂詢的推廣費這一塊，其實我們發現民眾的認知跟我們傳統習俗、文化的禁錮還是一個主因。另外一塊就是財務，財務面我們跟健保署合作，推廣面的部分我們會跟長照司合作，因為目前看到願意簽署的，都是人生經驗裡面有一些相關的，所以目前大概50歲以上是我們的一個target，以上。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝司長。安寧療護的概念早在立法前就已經開始在臺灣推動，現在大概已經20年了，而且使用率逐年增加，2022年使用的人數達到6萬7,000人，病人死亡前一年的安寧利用率大概30.4%，可是量能還是不足，它事實上是透過多種專業對病人跟家屬做整體的輔導，同時是生理、心理的醫療，可是這個項目真的滿燒錢的，所以對醫院來說，如果不是為了評鑑加分的話，誘因不大，因此安寧病床的床位不多，而採用安寧共照來替代。112年全國有86家醫院，共計915床，到114年的時候變成85家醫院，大概910床，需求多，床位少，勢必每一天都有人在排隊，所以想問一下，目前實際上的安寧病床數到底有多少？"],["邱部長泰源：是的，謝謝委員，剛剛您報的就是現在的數字。"],["林委員月琴：就是910嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是的，大概九百多。"],["林委員月琴：整體來說不多，所以就會有病人跨科做安寧共照，目前安寧共照對病人，特別是家屬的照護，能夠達到安寧病房的水準嗎？衛福部怎麼去確保這個水準？因為不一樣啊！"],["邱部長泰源：我想安寧共照是站在我們的文化跟民眾的需求所衍生出來的，因為你如果叫他去住安寧病房，這個就是一個很大的關卡，但是其實安寧緩和醫療最好是越早啟動越好。也許他已經在做緩和性的化療，那個時候就應該加入安寧緩和醫療團隊，來你的病房跟你解釋什麼叫做安寧，有時候你跟A病床的人說明，結果是B病床的人聽一聽說：我要去安寧病房。那個越早啟動可以讓病人規劃未來可以做的事情，所以安寧的共照是非常重要的，安寧共照的團隊其實也花了非常大的心力。"],["林委員月琴：對，可是它的品質、水準真的就是沒有辦法跟安寧……"],["邱部長泰源：它的效果當然沒辦法像安寧病房這樣子，整個團隊來給他各方面、全方位的照顧，所以怎麼樣讓需要安寧病房的人能夠住進來，當然這邊也要跟委員報告，雖然有這麼多床，但是很多醫院的安寧病床因為文化的問題，病人跟家屬還是希望共照，他們不太願意到安寧病房，所以我們分析各個醫院的占床率，就知道其實更重要的是要去推展民眾的觀念。"],["林委員月琴：可是基於病人自主醫療的權利保障跟善終的期望，在整個安寧病房的量不足，使用率又低的狀況下，這種現實問題，我相信衛福部有義務也有能力把整個政策建構得更完整。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["林委員月琴：病人預立安寧緩和醫療書跟預立醫療決定書，這一整套的制度連結分級醫療體系的醫院跟社區兩端，社區端也可以看到有在宅安寧跟機構安寧這兩種在宅的醫療形式，讓病人除了住院以外，另外在社區終老。你的政策經費是111年「居家醫療照護整合計畫2.0」、113年「全民健康保險在宅急症照護試辦計畫」這兩個計畫在支撐，所以想問，不論長照、老人，還是護理之家，在住宿型機構籌組照護團隊服務機構內的病人，對於機構品質的提升一定有比較正面的影響，對機構、病人、分級醫療等各方面都有一些助益，本來就是應該要大力推動的政策，可是政府一直沒有把一個部分考慮進來，就是沒有考慮住宿機構籌組照護團隊的經營壓力，這項服務對醫院來講就是賠錢在做，對住宿型機構來講更是，像醫生訪視費，健保支付如果給醫院1,500，為什麼只有給住宿型機構1,200？這20%的落差是會打擊士氣的，所以本席認為，醫院跟住宿型機構各項醫事人員的訪視費要一致，請你推動這項訴求，你同意嗎？就是大家應該都是一致的，差了20%……"],["邱部長泰源：請健保署署長說明給付方面。"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，這個我們已經通過，下半年會來做安寧照護品質的評核，評核之後按照他的程度，分別加成10%、20%跟30%，這個包含了住院的安寧、安寧共照跟居家安寧都適用。另一方面，我們下半年也會來檢討居家安寧的給付方式，我們現在是論次，有沒有要用包月的方式讓它更具彈性，都會一一來檢討。至於給付方面，也一定會朝向不同工不同酬的方式來思考。"],["林委員月琴：好，所以下半年會開始去做規劃。"],["石署長崇良：對。"],["林委員月琴：因為病人在住宿型機構發生醫療糾紛，勢必會大幅增加，所以機構背後一定要有強大的支持系統，也就是綠色通道。綠色通道除了提供緊急救援、住院支援以外，人力、技術也都是重要的一環，所以衛福部是不是能夠確保機構具備這項強大的後勤資源？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想這是很重要，要去努力的方向，我們一定會來努力。"],["林委員月琴：最後，我有三點訴求，就是對於整個醫事人員的支持方案，面對病人家屬的質疑跟訴訟，我覺得還是要提供一些支持。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["林委員月琴：還有擴大預立醫療照護諮商的全額補助對象，今天應該也得到你們的……65歲以上都是。還有提高住宿型機構醫事人員的訪視費，所以下半年如果在討論的時候，可能要考慮一下我剛剛講的，是不是大家都是同樣的。再來，綠色通道避免醫糾的部分，要為住宿型機構提供後勤的支持系統，這些是不是在兩週內提供書面報告給我？謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們再把計畫書提供給委員，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請蘇清泉召委詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-9","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","蘇清泉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","莊瑞雄","廖偉翔","林淑芬","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳培瑜","楊曜","陳瑩","涂權吉","陳菁徽"],"page_start":359,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；二、委員劉建國等\n16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案；三、委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利\n法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案【僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1144501_00007"}}},{"id":"160851","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160851","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc0bca3c794e930ea054de01e9c6ce9529705daebae4db85f91672f50a45871b9275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:26:02 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委員長郭部長 你說核管法修法過了核三長就可以研立嘛對不對 這是你昨天去專訪以前清清楚楚說的嘛那你知道核管法最近就要三讀通過了嗎 你知道嗎我不知道"},{"start":50.493,"end":65.407,"text":"5月17號 5月16號就過 所以你到時候會兌現諾言也是為了我們企業發展 為了我們全民好河山就可以研擬 對不對在法令的規定之下 我們政府一定是在法跟規"},{"start":66.636,"end":91.111,"text":"的這個規定之下呢我們來運作啦齁那客觀法修過了我要看他修的內容是什麼我們還是要在法的框架之下去運作跳脫法的框架我們還是沒有辦法做因為我們是政府齁所以萬一沒辦法齁沒辦法請委員你講一講啊那閃的就過了沒辦法沒有啦不是閃的就過了柏定你昨天是對著全民講啊那個是一個公開的"},{"start":92.412,"end":114.057,"text":"公開的講話 我講的意思就是說我們在核管法修過以後因為修成什麼樣子我不知道但是修在我們可以依循的這個框架之內我們一定是依法行事啦框架 修法的重點就是你剛剛講的嘛它是把40年 我們本來40年要除役嘛變成60年 這個是明確有修的"},{"start":116.979,"end":130.095,"text":"第二個 我要明天跟你講事實上為什麼要這樣修 因為最近這1到3年日本就已經把它的40年改成延長到60年了美國有些廠 核電廠 還從40年已經變成80年了是跟國際接軌的 這次事實上就是你講的 我們是有修這個條文的"},{"start":136.642,"end":153.464,"text":"所以你講話你要兌現你的諾言我現在跟你講我報告委員我是政府的一份子我們一定是尊敬所有的法規來行事啦所以我對在法規之內的事情我承諾的我一定做得到"},{"start":154.045,"end":178.392,"text":"所以你承諾如果修過了就是要核酸演繹嘛不然的話你就變成耍嘴皮子的這個部長了不是耍嘴皮子喔所以你有沒有對線你昨天講的話有沒有對線核酸廠的演繹在法律規定之內的事情我承諾的我就會去做我承諾在法律規定之外的我不會去做法律規定之外的我不會做我也不承諾"},{"start":180.646,"end":205.974,"text":"因為我不知道 你現在是一個假設的命題在那裡我假設啊 條文這麼清楚啊就是你昨天對著全民講的啦40年延長到我在講的是在這個法規之內我們基本上還是那個三原則但是你修過了我那個三個原則基本上的三個原則如果今天法律的規定之內我可以做 我就做啊"},{"start":206.594,"end":228.965,"text":"你不是要在這裡說嗎 你說三個原則裡面核廢料嘛你說美國會幫我們處理嘛 對不對你剛才說的還有甘氏的這個儲存潮甘氏儲存潮不短期 甘氏儲存潮可以放50年 更重要的先進國家現在都是這樣處理嘛 對不對美國 日本 韓國 法國 它現在的核廢料放在哪裡都也是甘氏儲存潮嘛 而且可以放50年啊"},{"start":231.646,"end":254.756,"text":"我們會交給技術部門來確認我想我們也不可能我們台灣在這一方面的領域確實有一些專家但是這種事情每一個世界在世界上每一個國家他買的那個設備的時代跟機種可能不會都一樣"},{"start":256.937,"end":273.403,"text":"每一個機器都不會一樣你剛講的核廢料啦就是你剛講的嘛但是因為機器不一樣啦亂出來的核廢料委員你可能不太清楚就是每一台機器所用的這個鈾原料那個鈾棒是定做的"},{"start":274.822,"end":293.103,"text":"這個你可能不清楚我們現在說合會要處理嘛所以你剛才說了嘛你不是專訪的時候講得很清楚全美國包括AIT的處長都講了你說可以請他們幫忙處理嘛對不對啊等於全世界都是這樣放放在幹事的處分場全世界都是這樣沒有錯但是處理的方法是不一樣的嘛處理方法不會一樣啊"},{"start":297.028,"end":323.967,"text":"因為那個規格 所有的 美國可以處理日本可以處理 法國可以處理所有全世界用核能都 核廢料都可以處理現在台灣沒有辦法處理不是 台灣沒有辦法 太怪了吧沒有喔 委員你現在又在講話術了台灣可不可以處理我們尋求可以處理的方法來處理OK 好 所以你在尋求可以嘛其實 好 來那你說安不安全 柏林你知道嗎"},{"start":325.52,"end":352.798,"text":"國際原子能總署啊 對我們核電廠的評比啊是前段班欸 全世界第六名你剛才也說啊 它已經用了 全世界用了四十年啊是安全的嘛 對不對所以安全我認為沒有問題啊 核廢料問題也解決了啊第三個 等於全民共識啦你去看看那個最近的 最近這兩三年的民調都馬上是七成以上 認為要重啟核能啊欸 我們還有公投過欸 以核養綠對不對"},{"start":355.195,"end":378.72,"text":"養麗就是要用核電啊對不對那你說要全民共識這個全民共識是跟台灣民眾的全民共識還是跟賴清德跟民進黨的全民共識如果是跟全民的話那些民調都是啊那我們現在要推動要更領濟全民的共識所以我們推了一個河山研議嘛你說多此一舉這不就是要弄死你們第三項嗎委員你又講錯囉河山研議"},{"start":382.935,"end":406.377,"text":"全民共識 你剛才在講 你是講說共識這個問題不是這樣子嘛 你的意思可能是說 河山研議要不要公投啦 是不是對啦 公投就在臨近全民共識嘛所以你剛講的那三個條件都符合嘛 合會要處理安全我是講說 如果按照你的邏輯來講啦 公投是多此一舉嘛"},{"start":407.409,"end":427.37,"text":"你剛才講過了啊對不對 你剛才講過了為什麼要多此一舉就是你要公投就浪費錢啊一次就要五億然後又要花很多的時間對不對你們耐清的總統跟民進黨不就是說要有領濟全民共識嗎公投第一個是憲法附給人民的權利耶你跟民意要對上跟憲法都要對上嗎"},{"start":428.211,"end":452.901,"text":"那第二個更重要你說你要領濟全民共識公投就是一種領濟全民共識的方法啊那個委員你的主張我沒有意見只是人家主持人問我嘛我表達的意思這樣而已好不好我們意見有很多不一樣的我剛講說你們講的這三項都已經解決了然後你要公開講說這個核管法因為你的目的通過之後就是要沒有沒有保定我已經講過囉核管法其實要通過"},{"start":455.882,"end":478.169,"text":"核管法通過那一天院長也在大院裡面講得非常的清楚核管法通過的時候是大家理性討論然後通過的他不會復議啊你們講說通過你也來復議嗎我跟委員報告你可以問院長這是他講的話我想那個也有記錄嘛所以我"},{"start":480.744,"end":488.302,"text":"對我來講我的基本原則是這樣子報告委員我們基本原則是這樣在法律的規定之下我們不會預法"},{"start":489.861,"end":507.867,"text":"也不會越法我們一定會按照法律核准的範圍裡面去試做這個就是我們公務同仁做事情的一個依規嘛依法就是依核管法嘛現在全民在看我們經濟部長講話算話嗎經濟部長能夠講話不算話嗎現在全民希望你講出人民的需求只要在法律的規定之內我講的話都算數"},{"start":518.271,"end":543.932,"text":"算數嘛對不對 所以現在錢比方看你會不會變成 又縮斷了不是啦 說回去又變成是一個耍嘴皮子 耍嘴皮子的這個步伐 懷疑這個懷疑那個委員 懷疑那個沒有意義啦你為什麼不懷疑說太陽從西邊出來來 保定 你也是重點嘛 你說河冷五月全部歸零以後啊不會對空氣有影響我給你看一下喔 去年河山廠的一號機"},{"start":548.194,"end":557.565,"text":"除以以後 你馬上跟麥寮電廠就續約啦麥寮電廠燒沒了 對不對這對空氣有沒有影響所以那一天有17個團體喔彰化 雲林 嘉義還有17個團體的民眾到行政院跟"},{"start":568.317,"end":579.85,"text":"監察院來抗議他們講什麼經濟部縱容繼續燒煤本來已經停了嘛我們賣了本來已經停了結果就是因為河山場一號機停了以後你看就是一個對比嘛繼續去買這個賣了的慢性殺人"},{"start":583.194,"end":608.896,"text":"他說每多發一度的這個煤就在155公里的麥寮電廠污染範圍之內這是無差別持續在射殺國人的生命這是一個慢性的殺人麥寮是全台灣第二大污染源這什麼空氣會好呢你從去年的麥寮就看出來它是有問題的"},{"start":611.36,"end":636.393,"text":"你一直在講說天然氣是乾淨的,還有低碳的天然氣我給大家看一個數據,這是台電的數據啦台電112年火力發電的排放量在空氣污染這部分啊,燃氣就是天然氣喔它是燃煤的,在氮氧化物啊,它是燃煤的47%,不是沒有啊"},{"start":639.392,"end":652.918,"text":"燃煤0.173 燃氣是0.082 是有喔 差不多一半另外呢 PM10 就是悬浦的這個微粒燃煤是0.005 燃氣是多少 0.004 85%天然氣沒有什麼乾淨的 沒有乾淨的天然氣啦"},{"start":662.366,"end":686.493,"text":"他還是有汙染啊對不對他如果跟咱們也比稍微低一點點我們從來沒有講過說天然氣是零碳的你不要把我們說低碳的東西你把它講成零碳這個就是完全用化術對嘛不是化術嘛不一定不一定我們是理性物質科學在討論嘛你說郭志輝講說不會對空氣有什麼影響嘛我現在跟你說就是有影響嘛"},{"start":687.435,"end":705.765,"text":"我剛才給你一個很清楚的數據啊你這麼計較這個有影響 微量影響 稍微影響都要這樣子表示我們會依據你希望表達的方式先分歧 你認為我們應該分歧幾這個影響很大嘛 我剛剛跟你講你賣了 你賣了都會用 賣了繼續用賣了繼續用 我們跟台電是一個團體"},{"start":714.369,"end":729.347,"text":"我們跟他的契約行為政府不能夠違反契約行為喔所以你不能用這一個每一次你都用那個契約行為就是到去年的4月就停了嘛你們是重新又去續的一個月發貴啊我"},{"start":732.47,"end":734.051,"text":"政府看的契約我們有多少的人在看政府可以違反這個契約嗎"},{"start":751.687,"end":769.819,"text":"政府可以違反契約嗎 否定 否定你在這個契約上面再知道 去年的重點是什麼就是麥寮跟台電本來合約已經停了嘛 對不對 是不是這樣25年嘛 那就是因為你核電廠 核伊林被關掉之後你去拿了這個東西又來 又去買 又繼續買啊 買到今年年底啊"},{"start":771.328,"end":792.452,"text":"所以你人民跟社團都上來抗議啊我都知情過你啊所以當然對我們的健康對空氣有影響對不對第二個我今天拿的是你們台電的資料天然氣也是有汙染它當然比這個煤稍微低一點點可是還是有對不對它如果跟核電比當然會增加很多所以我現在是要跟你講你不要講說空氣沒有變好"},{"start":797.574,"end":811.847,"text":"好啦因為我本來要問其他的時間已經到了啦現在最重要的啦5月17號核光法就過了就看你到底能不能讓核三嚴厲現在全民都在看不要變成耍嘴彼此的這個經濟鋪葬第二個核三"},{"start":813.992,"end":831.105,"text":"廠停了之後5月17號之後我們變成非核加鹽我們的電價不只變貴了成本增加了嘛空氣污染也增加5月17號以後你看我會不會漲價啦好不好5月18號各位可以看一下喔5月18號看我們電價有沒有漲如果電價有漲"},{"start":832.546,"end":843.8,"text":"5月18號那天電價有漲我下台好不好5月18號以後沒有漲請委員你說回這句話部長你為什麼要壓5月18號你不是一直在講10月10月份可能電價審議委員會開完以後電價審議委員會什麼時候開沒有錯"},{"start":848.106,"end":860.238,"text":"電價審議委會什麼時候開電價審議委會你可以講電價審議委會什麼時候開電價審議委會九月底才開啊沒有開怎麼上架那你這不劃數嗎你要檢視 你要駁定你要檢視的是五一七之後那個十月份會不會漲駁定 你要五月十七一號十月份會不會漲電價你說五月十七一號會起價啊那是你說的啊"},{"start":872.17,"end":889.048,"text":"你馬上會第一時間就找嗎你當然開定價審議委員會啊所以人民要問你的事你每一次講話都是講第二天以後會變怎麼樣大委員大部長那是不是我們現在我們把時間對待主席要講了啦保證 人民要看你的是10月1號有沒有上架啦OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":145,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時26分）請郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：郭部長，你說核管法如果修法過了，核三廠就可以延役，對不對？這是你昨天接受專訪的時候清清楚楚說的。你知道核管法最近就要三讀通過了嗎？你知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我不知道。"],["張委員啓楷：5月17號就會過，所以到時候你要兌現諾言，為了我們企業發展、為了全民好，核三就可以延役，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：在法令的規定之下，我們政府一定是在法跟規的規定之下來運作，核管法修過了，我們要看它修的內容是什麼，我們還是要在法的框架之下去運作，跳脫法的框架，我們還是沒有辦法做，因為我們是政府，所以我們沒有辦法像委員說的，閃了就過，沒辦法！"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，不是閃了就過，部長，你昨天是對著全民講，那是一個公開的講話，對不對？你說的是核管法……"],["郭部長智輝：是呀，我講的意思就是我們在核管法修過以後，因為修成什麼樣子，我們不知道，但是修在我們可以依循的框架之內，我們一定是依法行事。"],["張委員啓楷：對啦，這次修法的重點就是你昨天講的，就是我們本來40年要除役，把40年變成60年，這個是明確有修的。第二個，我要明確跟你講，事實上為什麼這樣修？因為最近這一到三年日本就已經把它的40年延長到60年了，美國有些核電廠還從40年變成80年了，是跟國際接軌的。事實上就是你講的，我們是有修這個條文的，所以你講話要兌現你的諾言，我現在是跟你講，5月17號之後……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我是政府的一分子，我們一定是遵定所有的法規來行事，所以我對在法規之內的事情、我承諾的，我一定做得到。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛，所以你承諾如果修過了，核三就要延役，要不然的話，你就變成耍嘴皮子的部長了，你知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是耍嘴皮子，我還是一樣，在法律……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你有沒有要兌現你昨天講的話？有沒有要兌現核三廠的延役？"],["郭部長智輝：在法律規定之內的事情，我承諾的，我就會去做；我承諾在法律規定之外的，我不會去做。法律規定之外的，我不會做，我也不承諾，因為我不知道……你現在是一個假設性的命題在那裡……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有假設，條文這麼清楚啊！就是你昨天對著全民講的，40年延長到……"],["郭部長智輝：我在講的是在這個法規之內，我們基本上還是那個三原則，但是你修過了，那個三個原則，基本上的三個原則……如果今天法律的規定之內我可以做，我就做啊。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你不是直接說，你說三個原則裡面，核廢料，你說美國會幫我們處理，對不對？你剛才說的還有乾式的貯存槽，部長，乾式貯存槽不是短期的耶，乾式貯存槽可以放50年，更重要的是，先進國家現在都是這樣處理，對不對？美國、日本、韓國、法國現在的核廢料放在哪裡？都是放在乾式貯存槽，而且可以放50年，全世界都這樣做，所以就是你剛剛講的……"],["郭部長智輝：這個我們會交給技術部門來確認，我想我們也不可能……我們臺灣在這方面的領域確實有一些專家，但是這種事情，在世界上每一個國家買的設備的時代跟機種可能不會都一樣，就是每一個機器都不會一樣，產生的核廢料……"],["張委員啓楷：你說核廢料，就是你剛剛講的。"],["郭部長智輝：每個機器不一樣，run出來的核廢料……委員，你可能不太清楚，就是每一台機器所用的鈾原料、鈾棒是訂做的，這個你可能不清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：我知道，我們現在是講核廢料的處理，所以你剛才有說了……"],["郭部長智輝：是，我的意思是說訂做的東西……"],["張委員啓楷：你不是在專訪的時候講得很清楚，包括美國AIT的處長都講了，你說可以請他們幫我們處理，對不對？第二個，全世界都是這樣放，放在乾式的貯存槽……"],["郭部長智輝：全世界都是這樣沒有錯，但是處理的方法是不一樣的，處理方法不會一樣。另外，那個規格，所有的鈾原料……"],["張委員啓楷：美國可以處理，日本可以處理，法國可以處理，所有全世界用核能的，核廢料都可以處理，現在只有臺灣沒辦法處理，這太怪了吧！"],["郭部長智輝：不是臺灣沒有辦法……沒有，委員，你現在又在講話術了。臺灣可不可以處理？我們尋求可以處理的方法來處理。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，好，所以你在尋求可以……你說安不安全？部長，你知道嗎？國際原子能總署對我們核電廠的評比是前段班，全世界第6名。你剛才也說了，全世界已經用了40年，是安全的，對不對？所以安全我認為沒有問題，核廢料問題也解決了，第三個就是全民共識。你去看看最近這二、三年的民調，都是七成以上認為要重啟核能，我們還有公投過耶！以核養綠，對不對？以核養綠就是要用核電，對不對？你說要有全民共識，這個全民共識是臺灣民眾的全民共識，還是賴清德跟民進黨的全民共識？如果是全民的話，那些民調都是啊！我們現在要推動、要更凝聚全民的共識，所以我們推了一個核三延役，你說多此一舉，這不就是要落實你們的第三項嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：委員，你講錯了，核三延役，全民共識，你剛才在講……你是講共識這個問題，哪有什麼你推核三延後……"],["張委員啓楷：凝聚你們的全民共識嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：不是這樣子嘛！你的意思可能是核三延役要不要公投，是不是？"],["張委員啓楷：對啦，公投就是要凝聚全民共識嘛！所以你剛剛講的那三個條件都符合：核廢料的處理、安全……"],["郭部長智輝：我是講如果按照你的邏輯來講，公投是多此一舉嘛！你剛才說過了，對不對？你剛才說過了嘛。"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼多此一舉？"],["郭部長智輝：公投就浪費錢啊，一次就要5億，然後又要花很多的時間，對不對？"],["張委員啓楷：你們賴清德總統跟民進黨不是說要凝聚全民共識嗎？公投，第一個，是憲法賦予人民的權利，你要跟民意對撞、跟憲法對撞嗎？第二個更重要，你說要凝聚全民共識，公投就是一種凝聚全民共識的方法啊！"],["郭部長智輝：委員，你的主張我沒有意見，只是人家主持人問我，我表達的意思是這樣，好不好？我們的意見有很多不一樣的地方。"],["張委員啓楷：今天最重要的就是我剛剛提到你們講的這三項都已經解決了，然後你又公開講說核管法通過之後就是要……"],["郭部長智輝：因為你的目的……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，部長，這很重要喔，人民現在……"],["郭部長智輝：我已經講過了，核管法只要通過，核管法通過……那一天院長也在大院裡面講得非常清楚，核管法通過的時候，是大家理性討論通過的，他不會覆議。你們講說通過之後，我們會不會來覆議？我跟委員報告，你可以問院長，這是他講的話，我想也有紀錄嘛……"],["張委員啓楷：對，他不會覆議，很好。"],["郭部長智輝：所以對我來講，我的基本原則是這樣子，報告委員，我們的基本原則是這樣，在法律的規定之下，我們不會逾法，也不會越法，我們一定會按照法律核准的範圍裡面去施作，這個就是我們公務同仁做事情的依歸嘛。"],["張委員啓楷：對，依法就是依核管法嘛，現在全民在看經濟部部長講話算話嗎？是講話算法，還是耍嘴皮子？"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部部長能夠講話不算話嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：5月17號就見真章嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：不是，經濟部部長，我講的話……"],["張委員啓楷：現在全民希望你講出人民的需求、企業的需求，人民就……"],["郭部長智輝：我講的話，只要在法律規定之內，我講的話都算數！"],["張委員啓楷：算數，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：算數。"],["張委員啓楷：所以現在全民看你會不會又縮回去，變成耍嘴皮子的部長……"],["郭部長智輝：不是，你不要這麼會懷疑啦，我都覺得你每天都在懷疑這個、懷疑那個。委員，懷疑那個沒有意義啦，了解嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：好，另外一個也很重要的……"],["郭部長智輝：你為什麼不懷疑太陽從西邊出來？"],["張委員啓楷：部長，另外一個重點，你說核能5月全部歸零以後不會對空氣有影響，我給你看一下，去年核三廠一號機除役以後，你馬上跟麥寮電廠續約了，麥寮電廠是燒煤的，對空氣有沒有影響？所以那一天有來自彰化、雲林、嘉義等17個團體的民眾到行政院及監察院抗議，他們說經濟部縱容繼續燒煤，麥寮電廠本來已經停了，結果因為核三廠一號機除役以後，你看這就是對比，繼續去買麥寮電廠的電。每多發1度煤電就是在155公里的麥寮電廠污染範圍之內，無差別持續射殺國人的生命，這是慢性殺人，麥寮是全臺灣第二大污染源，為什麼空氣會好呢？從去年的麥寮電廠就看出它是有問題的。","然後部長一直說天然氣是乾淨的，還有低碳天然氣，我給大家看一個數據，這是台電的數據，台電112年火力發電排放量，在空氣污染部分，燃氣（天然氣）的氮氧化物是燃煤的47%，不是沒有，燃煤是0.173、燃氣是0.082，差不多一半。另外，在懸浮微粒（PM10）的部分，燃煤是0.005、燃氣是0.004，占85%，沒有什麼乾淨的天然氣，還是有污染，對不對？如果跟燃煤比稍微低一點點，可是還是有污染。"],["郭部長智輝：我們從來沒有講過天然氣是零碳的，你不要把我說低碳的東西講成零碳，這個完全是用話術在問我問題。"],["張委員啓楷：不是話術。部長，我們是理性、務實、科學在討論，郭智輝說不會對空氣有什麼影響，我現在要跟你說的就是有影響，我剛才也給你很清楚的數據，有影響，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：你這麼計較有影響、微量影響、稍微影響，都要這樣子表示，我們會依據你希望表達的方式先分級，你認為我們應該分幾級？"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這個影響很大。"],["郭部長智輝：你認為分幾級才算影響很大？"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我剛剛跟你講了，麥寮電廠繼續用，全臺灣第二大污染源……"],["郭部長智輝：麥寮繼續用的部分是我們跟台電之間的契約行為，這是我們跟它的契約行為，政府不能夠違反契約行為，所以你不能「竹篙鬥菜刀」，你每一次都用「竹篙鬥菜刀」。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，契約行為到去年4月就停了，你們是重新又去續了一個約。"],["郭部長智輝：請問你有看過那個契約嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：有啊，看過。台電的總經理……這個案子我追了那麼久，我還問過你，你怎麼問我有沒有看過？"],["郭部長智輝：委員可能沒有看得很清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：我們追這個案子追了兩、三個月，當初我還質詢過你，契約你看過，我也看過。"],["郭部長智輝：政府看的契約，我們有多少人在看，政府可以違反這個契約嗎？政府可以違反契約嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你在這個契約上面繞，去年的重點是什麼？就是麥寮跟台電25年的合約本來已經停了，是不是這樣？因為核電廠被關掉之後，你拿了這個東西又繼續買，買到今年年底，所以人民跟社團都上來抗議了，這些我都質詢過你，當然對我們的健康、對空氣有影響，對不對？","第二個，我今天拿的是你們台電的資料，天然氣也是有污染，比燃煤稍微低一點點，可是還是有，對不對？如果跟核電比當然就增加很多，所以我現在是要跟你講，你不要講空氣沒有……"],["郭部長智輝：委員，我也沒有必要在這裡跟你就形容詞在辯異，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：好啦！因為我本來要問其他的，時間已經到了，部長，現在最重要的是5月17日核管法就過了，就看你到底能不能讓核三延役，現在全民都在看，不要變成耍嘴皮子的經濟部長。第二個，核三廠停了之後，5月17日之後我們變成非核家園，我們的電價不只變貴了，成本增加了，空氣污染也增加了。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，5月17日以後你看我會不會漲價，各位可以看一下5月18日我們電價有沒有漲，如果電價有漲，5月18日那天電價有漲，我下臺，好不好？5月18日以後沒有漲，請委員收回這句話。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你為什麼要押5月18日？你不是一直在講10月份電價審議委員會開完以後，電價審議委員會什麼時候開？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有錯，你可以講電價審議委員會……"],["張委員啓楷：電價審議委員會什麼時候開？"],["郭部長智輝：電價審議委員會9月底才開。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有開怎麼漲價，你這不是話術嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：你才話術啦！你現在講5月17日之後就會漲價……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你要檢視的是5月17日之後到10月份會不會漲。"],["郭部長智輝：你剛剛是用文字在敘述……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，10月份會不會漲電價？"],["郭部長智輝：你說5月17日以後會漲價，這是你說的，我說5月18日沒漲價……"],["張委員啓楷：5月17日之後馬上會第一時間就漲嗎？你當然開電價審議委員會，所以人民要問你的是10月……"],["郭部長智輝：你每一次講話都是講第二天以後會不會怎麼樣。"],["主席：大委員、大部長，是不是我們現在……"],["張委員啓楷：主席講話了，部長，人民要看的是10月1日有沒有漲價，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請鄭正鈐委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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要質詢就沒人 要自己想這個是我來立法院兩年多以來第一次面對空蕩蕩的被巡台 這也算是一個全新的經驗不過我必須要說 這個經驗是不好的經驗所以主席我們沒有現實啦"},{"start":21.926,"end":38.039,"text":"報告主席我們沒有限時對不對我看你沒有按計時器時間自有調控一下反正現在來了少我盡量給大家方便好謝謝主席來我們來看一下其實這三天的安排的議題其實對於整個立法院也好"},{"start":39.62,"end":59.001,"text":"都有非常重要實質的意義不管是秘書處行政部門或者是總務處人事處本來就要對相關業務是處於一個必須要向立法院報告的狀態可是我們非常遺憾的是過去這一年多以來在藍白多數主導立法院情況下屢屢發生非常多荒謬的事情"},{"start":59.702,"end":63.843,"text":"我們就從其中一個司法法制委員會這個禮拜排的議案作為切入光是3月25號強行通過的違法會議非法表決所造成的空殼公投我要再次強調如果我們來看這個時間軸事實上當天是早上9點鐘會議開始可是呢"},{"start":81.387,"end":109.028,"text":"當天因為有游志斌的事件到底他是誰的助理到底他是誰的辦公室的同仁那不管是陳玉珍或者是韓國瑜院長都交代的不清不楚我們甚至懷疑有人說謊那一整天開始呢韓國瑜院長不願意處理不過韓國瑜院長不處理這件事情也不是第一次了在這一年多來他始終呢就是只會訂便當慶祝大家生日這個康樂鼓掌非常盡責但是身為一個立法院長實在失職"},{"start":110.369,"end":126.778,"text":"結果到了當天下午的三點半據傳有竹聯幫要在康源餐廳聚餐選幫主其實這件事情第一時間內政部就有處理可是我們要問到底是誰放任黑道做這樣的事情到了五點鐘我們發現黃國昌"},{"start":129.199,"end":145.272,"text":"為什麼要針對黃國昌呢因為他當天提出一個要延長會議的臨時提案可是他一整天都沒有來立法院而且呢這個延長會議的提案事實上他也必須要主席宣布可是很奇怪是主席也沒有宣布他們兩個就像彼此都會通靈一樣"},{"start":146.713,"end":159.908,"text":"在六點鐘以後呢所有的國民黨還有民眾黨委員就一起衝進立法院在會議時間之後要一起來開會然後呢當時我們就問他到底現在是不是開會時間他其實也講不清楚結果"},{"start":161.799,"end":185.88,"text":"當時國會頻道的直播我們還發現他切換到休息這個畫面也就是說他們呢自己知道這件事情是有問題的所以他們選在一個奇怪的開會時間而且我們要再次強調當天其實已經超過了法定的開會時間可是他們依然還是要強行開會而這個主導者不管是傅坤祺不管是韓國瑜不管是黃國昌我想國人都看在眼裡喔"},{"start":186.5,"end":204.596,"text":"那接下來我們來看一下關於立法院的資安防護這件事情事實上呢在去年司法法制的中嘉賓委員就已經有問到立法院每一個月遭受到資安的攻擊將近90萬次每月90萬次是一個什麼概念一個月如果30天來算"},{"start":207.246,"end":232.415,"text":"這個算法算下去我們可以想見立法院絕對有很大的問題那遭受到這個攻擊到底資安人員如何面對或是相關的系統如何處理而韓國瑜身為立法院長他主理著行政單位他們有沒有意識到這件事情還是他們認為來自對岸的敵意不需要處理反正呢國共一家親這件事情好像已然是一個事實所以他們完全不想去防護"},{"start":233.095,"end":253.599,"text":"完全不想去保護立法院相關子案的安全所以他們才決定今天不來嗎是這樣嗎接下來呢他們又說他們非常非常在意共諜的案子那我們就說該查就查該辦就辦事實上所有的民進黨籍立委當時有牽涉到這個相關共諜案的立委也都說該查就查該辦就辦絕不寬待"},{"start":256.26,"end":268.223,"text":"那我想這個立場如果已經這麼清楚了為什麼藍白在這件事情上始終不敢面對這件事情還有之前我在司法法制委員會質詢過關於連署造假、抄錄名冊、死亡連署的議題國家無分黨派滲透行為無分藍綠白只要有違法疑慮應該就要秉公查辦絕不護短"},{"start":278.706,"end":298.561,"text":"那民進黨也絕對不會像國民黨一樣去支持違法或造假的行為很可惜我們看到國民黨不只造假昨天還有人公開承認自己就是促成這個錯誤案件的人講到共諜其實共諜最大受害者是國民黨但國民黨恐怕已經忘記了自己的歷史過去呢"},{"start":299.75,"end":318.717,"text":"在國共內戰的時候,很多人都發現了,相關的史料裡面發現了,中國共產黨派非常多的人滲透在國民黨的身邊,不管是連開會的人啊,會議記錄,甚至是做小小小小事情的人,大到官階降臨,都有共諜在滲透在中國國民黨裡頭。"},{"start":319.537,"end":347.319,"text":"所以呢這可能也是當時國共內戰國民黨整個大敗的原因如果國民黨就是深受共諜毒害最深的苦衷那他們為什麼到今天為止卻選擇跟共諜站在一起就連昨天國台辦都出來幫他們說話說426他們做得好good job我實在是不知道到底誰才是應該最努力反共諜但現在卻跟共諜站在一起的中國國民黨你們真的對不起你們的老祖宗"},{"start":348.32,"end":366.085,"text":"好 接下來我們要繼續講我主席 我實在是覺得沒有人回答我 好煩喔心情很不好餒好 接下來我要講喔國民黨不只做這樣的事情他們甚至提名了一個不分區上一屆的不分區 無私懷"},{"start":367.365,"end":386.705,"text":"吳斯懷這位退將呢他當時被提名為不分區他也做了一屆可是當時他卻協同多名退將到北京的人民大會堂聽習近平講話你看他做那個端端正正的樣子一副好像要效忠國家的樣子但是我們來看一下他效忠的國家是哪一國"},{"start":387.563,"end":408.539,"text":"是中國呢這樣子的國民黨不分區立法委員難道還要我們相信中國共產黨是反共的嗎中國國民黨是反共的嗎當然不是甚至他們的國安破口翁小林還在公開質詢的時候要求農業部陳部長提供所謂的暫時的糧食配送站地圖這個更加的荒謬"},{"start":409.119,"end":426.066,"text":"如果是暫時的機敏資料現在提供給你們這些舔共賣台的立委真的適合嗎?而你還敢在公開視訊講這個話真的是在跟主持告訴主持說我做得很好good job 嘉義還是說你其實是要惹怒更多的台灣人"},{"start":427.779,"end":445.066,"text":"那很多時候中國國民黨會說到底誰才是共諜誰才是跟中國站在一起的人可笑的是在四二六的前夕今年四二六前夕連勝文也就是國民黨的副主席他才跑去見宋濤他說了什麼話呢他說"},{"start":446.326,"end":460.71,"text":"中國在面對關稅衝擊的時候台灣應該要主動幫忙中國這是什麼後面的言論接下來4月17號往前推個幾天洪秀柱一樣去拜見國台辦主席宋濤他繼續談兩岸一家親他繼續談九二共識"},{"start":465.091,"end":488.147,"text":"他們呢每一個人都急著去填貢每一個人都急著要把台灣賣出去大家更不要忘記去年4月26號在0403大地震之後呢傅昆奇說要去促成兩岸交流他帶了16名國民黨立委去拜見中國的網顧你更不要說他在2025的時候去到香港在香港的公開會議上說他代表中央政府"},{"start":488.747,"end":492.83,"text":"這就是現在國民黨的樣態所以呢可能是因為國民黨現在這個囂張的樣子才讓周萬來他可以選擇不來才讓周萬來和韓國瑜出一個新聞稿就可以做出藐視國會藐視主席這樣的行為最後我們來看一下為了情資的控管"},{"start":506.361,"end":533.204,"text":"民進黨的委員提出了多項關於國安法案也就是兩岸人民關係條例我們辦公室當然也有提案我們的要求非常簡單立法委員附中必須申報可是卻在程序委員會多次被擋下到目前為止所有委員提案被擋下的次數已經超過300多次而這樣子一再阻擋卻告訴我們是要挺國安國民黨居心何在其實我們真的都看不懂"},{"start":534.005,"end":557.081,"text":"基本上在台灣所有的政務官縣市首長還有大多數的基層軍公教去中國以前都必須要報備這個是有相關的法規範可是掌握這麼多權力跟機密的立法委員卻沒有相關任何的風險管理機制我們真的覺得非常的荒謬更可笑的是林國成民眾黨的立法委員還在總質詢當中聲稱說這沒有黨啦這叫暫緩"},{"start":562.765,"end":578.421,"text":"就像陳玉珍打我一樣卻叫做排除這就是現在的國民黨跟民眾黨在做的事情他們不僅擋法案他們在立法院有暴力行為甚至連同周萬來秘書長都可以不尊重司法法師委員會都可以選擇不出席"},{"start":580.183,"end":590.772,"text":"藐視司法法制委員會我想這個是他們到底做了什麼樣的壞事大家真的都看在眼裡這個打假球的行為我想真的是要停止所以我簡單的呼籲雖然他沒有來我還是要講給他聽如果國民黨或是民眾黨認為國會助理有涉共諜案我們堅持部分黨派該查就查該辦就辦而立法院我們自己也"},{"start":602.242,"end":625.375,"text":"應該要快速訂定相關的內規防止國會助理涉入共諜案還有相關的立法委員附中必須申報的法案我們希望可以儘速排審進入委員會不要再被擋在程序委員會了如果藍白兩黨真的在乎國安就請不要再打假球好 以上空氣質詢完畢謝謝主席好 謝謝程培委員接下來我們請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":66,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時27分）這是我來立法院兩年多以來，第一次面對空蕩蕩的備詢臺，這也算是一個全新的經驗，不過我必須要說，這個經驗是不好的經驗！所以主席我們沒有限時吧？報告主席，我們沒有限時，對不對？我看你沒有按計時器。"],["主席：時間自由調控一下，反正現在來的少，我儘量給大家方便。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主席。我們來看一下，其實這3天安排的議題對於整個立法院都有非常重要、實質的意義，不管是秘書處、行政部門或者是總務處、人事處，本來針對相關業務就必須處於一個要向立法院報告的狀態，可是我們非常遺憾的是，過去這一年多以來，在藍白多數主導的立法院情況下，屢屢發生非常多荒謬的事情。","我們就從其中司法及法制委員會這個禮拜排的議案作為切入，光是3月25號強行通過的違法會議非法表決所造成的空殼公投，我要再次強調，如果我們來看這個時間軸，事實上當天是早上9點鐘會議開始，可是當天因為有游智彬的事件，到底他是誰的助理、到底他是誰的辦公室同仁？不管是陳玉珍或者是韓國瑜院長都交代得不清不楚，我們甚至懷疑有人說謊。那一整天韓國瑜院長不願意處理，不過韓國瑜院長不處理這件事情也不是第一次了，在這一年多來，他始終只會訂便當、慶祝大家生日，這個康樂股長非常盡責，但是身為一個立法院長實在失職。結果到了當天下午三點半，據傳有竹聯幫要在康園餐廳聚餐、選幫主，其實這件事情第一時間內政部就有處理，可是我們要問，到底是誰放任黑道做這樣的事情？到了5點鐘，我們發現黃國昌……為什麼要針對黃國昌呢？因為他當天提出一個要延長會議的臨時提案，可是他一整天都沒有來立法院，而且這個延長會議的提案也必須要主席宣布，很奇怪的是主席也沒有宣布，他們兩個就像彼此都會通靈一樣；在6點鐘以後，所有的國民黨、民眾黨委員就一起衝進立法院，在會議時間之後要一起來開會。當時我們就問他，現在到底是不是開會時間？他其實也講不清楚，我們還發現當時的國會頻道直播切換到休息畫面，也就是說，他們自己知道這件事情是有問題的，所以他們選在一個奇怪的開會時間，而且我們要再次強調，當天其實已經超過了法定的開會時間，可是他們依然要強行開會，而這個主導者不管是傅崐萁、不管是韓國瑜、不管是黃國昌，我想國人都看在眼裡。","接下來，我們看一下關於立法院的資安防護這件事情，事實上，去年司法及法制的鍾佳濱委員就已經有問到，立法院每一個月遭受到的資安攻擊將近90萬次，每月90萬次是什麼概念？一個月如果以30天來算，依這個算法算下來，我們可以想見立法院絕對有很大的問題！那遭受到這些攻擊之後，資安人員到底要如何面對或是相關的系統如何處理？韓國瑜身為立法院長，他主理著行政單位，他們有沒有意識到這件事情？還是他們認為來自對岸的敵意不需要處理，反正國共一家親這件事情好像已然是一個事實，所以他們完全不想去防護、完全不想去保護立法院相關的資安安全，所以他們才決定今天不來，是這樣嗎？","接下來，他們又說他們非常、非常在意共諜的案子，那我們就說：該查就查、該辦就辦。事實上所有民進黨籍有牽涉到相關共諜案的立委也都說：該查就查、該辦就辦、絕不寬貸！我想這個立場如果已經這麼清楚了，為什麼藍白始終不敢面對這件事情？","還有之前我在司法及法制委員會質詢過關於連署造假、抄錄名冊、死亡連署的議題，國家無分黨派、滲透行為無分藍綠白，只要有違法疑慮應該就要秉公查辦、絕不護短，民進黨也絕對不會像國民黨一樣去支持違法或造假的行為。很可惜我們看到國民黨不只造假，昨天還有人公開承認自己就是促成這個錯誤案件的人。","講到共諜，其實共諜最大受害者是國民黨，但國民黨恐怕已經忘記了自己的歷史，過去在國共內戰的時候，很多人都在相關的史料裡面發現中國共產黨派非常多人滲透在國民黨身邊，不管是開會的人、會議紀錄，甚至是做微小事情的人，大到官階將領都有共諜滲透在中國國民黨裡頭，所以這可能也是當時國共內戰國民黨大敗的原因。如果國民黨就是深受共諜毒害最深的苦主，他們為什麼到今天為止卻選擇跟共諜站在一起？昨天就連國臺辦都出來幫他們說話，說426他們做得好、good job！我實在不知道到底誰才應該最努力反共諜，但現在卻跟共諜站在一起的中國國民黨，你們真的對不起你們的老祖宗！","接下來，我們要繼續講，主席，我實在是覺得，沒有人回答我好煩喔，心情很不好耶！接下來我要講，國民黨不只做這樣的事情，他們上一屆不分區甚至提名了吳斯懷，吳斯懷這位退將當時被提名為不分區，他也做了一屆，可是當時他卻協同多名退將到北京的人民大會堂聽習近平講話，你看他坐那個端端正正的樣子，一副好像要效忠國家的樣子，但是我們來看一下他效忠的國家是哪一國？是中國耶！有這樣子的國民黨不分區立法委員，難道還要我們相信中國國民黨是反共的嗎？當然不是，甚至他們的國安破口翁曉玲還在公開質詢的時候要求農業部陳部長提供所謂的戰時糧食配送站地圖，這個更加的荒謬，如果是戰時的機敏資料，現在提供給你們這些舔共賣臺的立委真的適合嗎？而你還敢在公開質詢講這個話，真的是在告訴主子說：我做得很好、good job加1，還是其實要惹怒更多的臺灣人！","很多時候中國國民黨會說，到底誰才是共諜、誰才是跟中國站在一起的人？可笑的是，在今年426的前夕，連勝文──也就是國民黨的副主席，他才跑去見宋濤，他說了什麼話呢？他說中國在面對關稅衝擊的時候，臺灣應該要主動幫忙中國，這是什麼荒謬的言論！接下來，往前推個幾天的4月17號，洪秀柱一樣去拜見國臺辦主任宋濤，他繼續談兩岸一家親、他繼續談九二共識，他們每一個人都急著去舔共、每一個人都急著要把臺灣賣出去！大家更不要忘記去年4月26號，在0403大地震之後，傅崐萁說要去促成兩岸交流，他帶了16名國民黨立委去拜見中國的王滬寧；更不要說他在2025的時候去到香港，在香港的公開會議上說他代表中央政府，這就是現在國民黨的樣態。可能是因為國民黨現在這個囂張的樣子，才讓周萬來可以選擇不來，才讓周萬來和韓國瑜出一個新聞稿就可以做出藐視國會、藐視主席的行為！","最後我們來看一下，為了情資的控管，民進黨的委員提出了多項國安法案，也就是兩岸人民關係條例，我們辦公室當然也有提案，我們的要求非常簡單，立法委員赴中必須申報，可是卻在程序委員會多次被擋下，到目前為止，所有委員提案被擋下的次數已經超過三百多次，這樣子一再阻擋卻告訴我們是要挺國安，國民黨居心何在？其實我們真的都看不懂！基本上，在臺灣所有的政務官、縣市首長，還有大多數的基層軍公教，去中國以前都必須要報備，這個是有相關的法規範，可是掌握這麼多權力跟機密的立法委員，卻沒有任何相關的風險管理機制，我們真的覺得非常荒謬。更可笑的是，民眾黨的立法委員林國成還在總質詢當中聲稱這沒有擋，這叫暫緩，就像陳玉珍打我一樣，叫做排除，這就是現在國民黨跟民眾黨在做的事情，他們不僅擋法案，他們在立法院還有暴力行為，甚至連同周萬來秘書長都可以不尊重司法及法制委員會，都可以選擇不出席，藐視司法及法制委員會，我想他們到底做了什麼樣的壞事，大家真的都看在眼裡，這個打假球的行為，我想真的是要停止。","所以我簡單地呼籲，雖然他沒有來，我還是要講給他聽，如果國民黨或是民眾黨認為國會助理有涉共諜案，我們堅持不分黨派，該查就查，該辦就辦，我們立法院自己應該要快速訂定相關的內規，防止國會助理涉入共諜案，還有相關的立法委員赴中必須申報的法案，我們希望可以儘速排審，進入委員會，不要再被擋在程序委員會了，如果藍白兩黨真的在乎國安，就請不要再打假球，以上空氣質詢完畢，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。接下來我們請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":172,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-14","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","沈發惠"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請立法院秘書長、議事處處長、法制局局長列席就「防止立法院成為國安破口─ 避免共諜滲\n透、機敏資訊洩漏等國安事件之防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00003"}}},{"id":"160849","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160849","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc0ebe473c19aa2c61bf84b180731b6d64105daebae4db85f917aee9c616f299ce85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:12:42 - 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工會 他們做的調查77點多就超過四分之三的人說他們根本沒有備訓諮詢就直接排定了我給你做參考"},{"start":132.883,"end":154.654,"text":"這個是臺大醫院說法,但事實上可能就不是如此博定還是請你要注意一下,雖然好像說臺大醫院是屬於教育部管,不過我想衛福部也是您到督導的對象博定他這個預例醫療決定推動到現在,您知道簽署率有多高嗎?簽署率有多少嗎?大概千分之1.31"},{"start":156.711,"end":167.899,"text":"簽分之1.31 柏定拜託 高板櫃再不到百分之一 又簽分之幾統計學就是沒有嘛 等於沒有人簽嘛我大概可以這麼講 柏定你有簽嗎我有簽安寧環和醫療但病毒法沒有我覺得我們的意願都很清楚 已經可以表達了在安寧環和醫療法因為法推出以後就是鼓勵"},{"start":185.331,"end":204.863,"text":"鼓勵後我們還是會看一下數字這也不是對錯的問題每一個人都是這間排審的三個版本它當然主要在經費之應場域放寬還有代理人的一個限制調整也許大家不太一樣不過我覺得方向是整個是正確的那就是要尊重這個意願人他自主權但是我也要提醒這個衛福部"},{"start":205.964,"end":213.314,"text":"就是說你們對於這個所有醫護跟相關學會的意見要稍微去多多徵詢你知道以前的爭議點在哪裡嗎你知道以前的爭議點對 爭議點在什麼地方爭議點是在哪裡"},{"start":226.605,"end":233.027,"text":"因為他的爭議點很多,病人自治權法案那個時候當時應該是蘇昭偉那個時代在推,但是我在學界應該也對這個法有相關的隱瞞因為爭議點是醫師說進戶中一陣子轉嫁給醫師,就是醫師背負太多的責任"},{"start":249.633,"end":277.231,"text":"爭議點 那這個東西就是找醫護人員找他們來一起討論嘛怎麼樣讓他們就覺得是相對是讓他們願意做這樣的事情配合這樣的政策但是又不是說你責任最後都丟給我其實爭議點就是這個啦民眾黨我們期待的是有這個病毒法還要一個尊嚴善終法才能夠完善這個善終權那因為病毒法保障的是無效醫療嘛可以拒絕無效醫療 那自然善終一個選擇"},{"start":278.132,"end":300.418,"text":"但是尊嚴善終是進一步讓極度痛苦的人透過嚴謹的程序然後他可以這個做自主來選擇他比較有尊嚴有體面的方式來結束生命兩者是一個互補就是可以完善一個生命自主跟尊嚴死亡那這是一個現代的價值這個衛福部現在好像都不想面對這個問題"},{"start":303.906,"end":326.119,"text":"我們不管是衛福部的各個單位跟學界跟相關的委員會始終在面對這個問題不是沒有面對這個問題博不丁我是要跟你提起遲早要面對因為齁所有的民調大概有七八成的民眾台灣民眾是支持這個法案的但這個法案怎麼寫我知道要很小心很謹慎但是我跟博不丁這樣說啦博不丁賴總統4月27日出席健康台灣全國論壇提了很多見解"},{"start":331.122,"end":351.81,"text":"當天也在場,所以我想你應該都很清楚那我賴總統有表達,政府提出這個癌藥基金100億元那他先編列50億元但並不是100億元用完就結束,不夠了就補上去,隔年再補這樣讓這個水庫可以保持一定水平那我想提醒部長"},{"start":353.371,"end":371.278,"text":"百億癌藥基金是個中繼站的概念我對你講中繼站過去的意思就是病人要團體期待然後去參觀其他國家的做法就是有一些加速審查的藥品他可能還沒有完全確定但是有些病人他有需求所以他讓這個中繼站"},{"start":372.859,"end":399.259,"text":"能夠暫時性的支付這類的藥品目前健保署還沒有改口雖然我們有很多已經確定療效的安全性的都沒有附滿附足但是這一塊本來是要做這個部分它是一個中繼站的概念你看賴總統也是用水庫的概念水庫本來水就是進進出出的那就是要加速通過藥來用那既然是中繼站的話真正的問題是新藥經過開放性使用用這筆錢"},{"start":401.04,"end":420.787,"text":"那之後要評估嘛 因為你暫時性使用那目前大概都兩年嘛 署長沒有改變 大概兩年後評估嘛那兩年後評估有三個結果 柏中你要聽得很清楚你日理千機 賴總統日理萬機 你日理千機百機 你也是要清楚這件事那時署長要非常清楚 因為他在執行這件事情"},{"start":421.747,"end":439.142,"text":"你現在兩年後,結果會有三個評估以後,一個淘汰出局就這個有在加速生產那個經不起考驗淘汰第二個我們覺得時間不夠要繼續觀察第三個他同意了,我們覺得他的療程安全都確定了所以我們要把它回歸到正常的使用"},{"start":441.103,"end":463.591,"text":"這有三條路可以走不然我是要說的癌藥不斷的在研發需求也會增加百億如何分配我到現在看不到用完怎麼辦因為賴總統我覺得他不能理解很深入的是ok的因為日理萬機賴總統意思好像好像預期會有勝他先用多少不夠我再補他預期會有勝那部長你也會認為有勝嗎"},{"start":468.092,"end":493.638,"text":"我有我的資深專業的那個經驗30年前告訴你 保留癌症病人絕對會面臨另外一個噩夢因為錢是不夠用的不夠用大概要讓這個滿足這一塊 幾百億都不夠那最後會怎麼樣呢 維持現況現況是什麼 就是不人道的方式你限制癌症病人使用的對象變得很小很窄然後限制他使用次數跟時間"},{"start":495.398,"end":515.711,"text":"那這個這麼多先生這是第一個到最後回到現在的噩夢這個事情我可以確定是這樣第二個當剛剛我跟你說明過當挑選後經過評估因為要評估暫時中繼站那你要進進出出到哪個地方去根據美國的經驗繼續使用就確定療效大概有六成他沒有經驗所以我們先用美國的經驗有兩成大概淘汰還有兩成他大概說我們要更長時間的觀察那有這兩個事情在前提那我請問部長"},{"start":524.717,"end":530.782,"text":"這個衛福部有規劃那個中長期的裁員嗎還是說你想說先擋個兩年拖個兩年再說呢好"},{"start":532.933,"end":547.46,"text":"包委員真的非常敬佩您指教這麼多專業的一個做法我相信對未來在處理心療癌症這個預算能夠有很大的幫助但是我必須要講賴總統絕對存著就是希望希望說真的病人需要癌藥的時候我們就是想盡辦法"},{"start":557.845,"end":569.413,"text":"給他充分 足夠及時那這個部分後面他立定了一個很這麼關懷我們前骨癌症的病人的方向以後原則我沒有問題那我們怎麼來把它做法嘛就是我們必須要來把它落實但是他有總統也特別強調說要多少就補多少"},{"start":587.725,"end":613.547,"text":"就是要把我們的癌症的病人幫他照顧好 降低死亡率那署長我剛剛講的那些問題 你有瞭解嗎你也知道問題在哪裡嘛 對不對 加速的通過那你現在怎麼辦 你準備好了沒有 大概已經這個很快 你準備了這個要解決的問題 就是這個癌症新藥基金這個等於是讓我們在財務預估上可以算準確"},{"start":615.008,"end":637.469,"text":"我們現在有的時候還不知道到底使用會有多少所以未來還是會回到健保基金一樣的它回到健保所以在這健保裡面去編列這個新藥預算的時候讓它可以等你有一個庫讓你先了解那我告訴你說美國大概六成人會回來你六成人回來錢都準備好了那你這樣病人怎麼辦我治療有效結果你不讓我繼續用惡夢出現"},{"start":640.452,"end":643.794,"text":"無縫的接軌啦你今天也談不出這個100億怎麼分啦怎麼 allocation 怎麼分配啦這個還有很大的問題還是不夠因為賴總統他以為夠他還說不夠我就補回去不夠就補回去不夠的啦賴總統也覺得不夠啦不夠的話問題就來那你就開始要壓縮使用嘛壓縮就開始分配嘛"},{"start":661.303,"end":676.521,"text":"分配就開始你誰先用這個就涉及每一個人的觀點主審的最大這個就是我跟你講很多人他不是真的要去圖利誰可是他有他自己的想法這個是很難處理的所以我也一直很關心這件事情然後現在我就回到說現在你的這個分區共管你知道這個有後遺症嗎不管署長或部長"},{"start":681.607,"end":700.107,"text":"不同區域之一人之人本來就不均勻啦你分區共管那會不會惡化那個城鄉的差距呢而且如果地方管理適當齁那健保這個費用運用適當民眾群會不會受損那衛福部跟健保署是否已經有事辦範圍啊標準配套監督機制你就等於說幫他去管啊"},{"start":701.488,"end":711.513,"text":"那每個醫院就管 你在這個情況下如果你在等於在自生自滅喔你不把總額這個大帽子拿掉你等於讓各地區各醫院自己去自生自滅喔"},{"start":713.206,"end":726.877,"text":"現在已經發生了你看好我看下一張好了就是我告訴你這個現象你們大家知道你看現在醫院怎麼存活南部的醫學中心就在醫生的處方的螢光幕上跟你說跟你說我建議你開這個藥因為這個要打圈圈兩個圈圈為什麼呢因為利潤最高"},{"start":731.661,"end":734.982,"text":"你難免逼著人家去做這件事嘛而且就是說還寫說敬請開立藥品時同時考慮醫療經濟學的成本效益其實藥品價格不代表醫療成本效益經濟學的但是它就是一個簡化的方式那他們的醫師自己說這些提示雖然沒有強制但是在這個院務會這個每一季的討論的時候你就科別業績沒搞"},{"start":758.05,"end":772.642,"text":"你這個要被檢討 績效不好啊這個情況下醫師就被迫去勾那個藥啊已經出現了啦 部長署長 我想你們都知道吧醫院會建議你醫生怎麼藥 病人聽聽看我的意思是醫院建議他用哪一個藥那我的感覺呢 我的權益呢病醫生的專業權 自主權怎麼辦後遺症都出現 所以我才說"},{"start":781.829,"end":787.17,"text":"你要分區各管但是你有沒有監測的配套的機制去看看這個品質嘛對不對就像署長昨天那個林靜儀的那件事情對不對他的他提出來的那個國際要價不是那個藥品的國際要價他把它污品掉了今天的專科醫師都跑出來講了所以他裡面那個不同的那個所謂的那個封口劑喔裡面有不同還有人添加凝血因子還有人添加防沾黏的功能根本都不一樣"},{"start":811.414,"end":822.039,"text":"你把它全部從分類分組一個叫grouping他們最害怕這個字你沒有廠牌之分把它放在同一組用裡面最低的價錢林靜儀次長唸出來的這邊都有公開的資料他唸的不是那個藥品的國際藥價但是你們在分組的時候可能出問題現在醫師大反彈因為那個病只有一次救命的機會對不對大動脈剝離主動脈剝離只有一次救命機會他當時沒有辦法就沒有辦法"},{"start":838.687,"end":851.981,"text":"如果你把它縫好了 水還是漏出來 雪還是漏出來就要靠這個凝膠去把它黏住就像淋到水管的私力控一樣嘛 對不對那它可能是本質不一樣 我是看專科醫師在談這件事情那你要把它放在同一組以後請林次長不懂 不要亂講話 現在醫師大反彈了"},{"start":860.51,"end":868.615,"text":"我簡單回應一下,第一個就是各區的公關,我相信你來行的,你是不是所有相關的委員會你都當過,其實在南區做得不錯但是這個現象都出現啊"},{"start":878.961,"end":897.235,"text":"所以美國的模式,我們總是要突破嘛所以是可以用在各區也是共管,其實這樣各區也是自己共管只是方式不太一樣現在出現後遺症我們告訴你嘛我們一定是預防後遺症那像剛剛提出這個部分我們健保署去了解逼迫醫院去這樣做啊"},{"start":904.201,"end":916.947,"text":"其實如果一個以,因為我也是醫師,我也非常反對影響到醫師的住宿專業錢跟一樣嘛,我們不管是醫藥都是專業的嘛,我們真的很不希望被影響但是怎麼樣慢慢的讓整個醫療的行為能夠"},{"start":922.95,"end":947.247,"text":"能夠恢復健康經濟,然後對人民好我們價值理念都一樣,我現在在說就食物啦另外署長你在醫材,那個當然我在藥品太久了醫材的部分,你要grouping的時候,你要把它分類成同一組,當作你們是同一夥的同樣的東西,我只花一樣的錢去買的時候,還是要小心啊因為醫生說不同成分,裡面我一聽有磷血因子,加磷血因子當然貴啊"},{"start":949.755,"end":969.72,"text":"當然我不知道,那林次長他給的那個國際要價不是他的國際要價然後大家就會以為說,就這麼貴你怎麼還要炒,炒的是醫生啊謝謝委員,我跟委員一樣都不是對所有的藥物都那麼清楚所以還是需要專家的意見為主啦所以我們會再回去,我們都有機制"},{"start":972.14,"end":1000.721,"text":"我們這個過去全部都是自費啦過去都是自費現在才納入健保給付那至於一開始五月要納入健保給付他還有時間來申付他要提高價格把成本給我們看我們還是要為健保的財務把關啦所以我們要跟國際要價相比需要看他的成本合給一個合理的價格但是沒有他就隱藏他的自己的國際要價嘛你們這個共理會的表就隱藏他是空白啦只有他空白其他都有啊"},{"start":1001.682,"end":1010.937,"text":"所以就是這個要出問題啦這個藥也不是最主流的藥所以其他主流的藥沒有問題所以供藥上沒有問題我以表達謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":76,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時12分）謝謝主席。麻煩邱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。今天是五一勞動節，所以我還是想一開始就先跟部長討論一下醫護勞動權益的問題。部長，龍頭醫院──臺大醫院是你我都服務過的醫院，吳院長還蠻喜歡公開評論時事，以他帶領龍頭醫院，加上他的這個特質，我認為他對自我的要求應該是要更高的，你同意吧？"],["邱部長泰源：是的，同意。"],["陳委員昭姿：是龍頭醫院，然後他也會關心其他的事情。但是臺大醫院企業工會這個禮拜一（4月28號）揭露臺大醫院的荒唐行徑，它在5月1號的班別意願調查表只給護理人員兩個選項，部長，這都很清楚，你有看過嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我知道這件事。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，你現在看，只有兩個選項而已，分別是：同意到院工作後調移國定假日；第二個，同意到院工作後領加班費。部長，這是依法要休假一整天，但當天不上班的選項不見了，它只有兩個選項。我先跟你說，因為這是一個非常清楚的事實，臺大醫院看似在徵詢同仁意願，但事實上已經設計好了，不管你勾哪一項，你那天就是得來，一定要出勤。部長，你覺得這樣做可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員非常關心醫護勞動的權益，我想也不只臺大，全國所有的醫療院所都要做……"],["陳委員昭姿：臺大是龍頭，我們先盯著臺大。"],["邱部長泰源：這點臺大有解釋，這是針對五一那天上班的人，給他們簽是要選擇……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我知道你的說法，我跟你說，臺大醫院企業工會做的調查，有百分之七十七點多，就是超過四分之三的人說他們根本沒有被諮詢，就直接排定了，我給你參考。"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒關係，這個我們會……"],["陳委員昭姿：這個是臺大醫院的說法，但事實上可能不是如此，部長，還是請你要注意一下，雖然臺大醫院好像是屬於教育部管，不過我想也是衛福部要督導的對象。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會注意。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，預立醫療決定推動到現在，您知道簽署率有多高、簽署率有多少嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：大概千分之一點三一。"],["陳委員昭姿：千分之一點三一！部長拜託，九萬多人，不到百分之一，還說千分之幾，在統計學上就等於沒有人簽嘛！我大概可以這麼講了。部長，你自己有簽嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：那個時候我有簽安寧緩和醫療……"],["陳委員昭姿：但病主法沒有。"],["邱部長泰源：我覺得我們的意願都已經很清楚可以表達了，在安寧緩和醫療法裡面。"],["陳委員昭姿：法推出以後就是鼓勵，鼓勵後我們還是會看一下數字，這也不是對錯的問題，而是每個人的想法。今天排審的3個版本主要的重點在經費支應、場域放寬，還有代理人的限制調整。也許大家不太一樣，不過我覺得整個方向是正確的，就是要尊重意願人的自主權。但是我也要提醒衛福部，對於所有醫護跟相關學會的意見你們要多多去徵詢。部長，你知道以前的爭議點在哪裡嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：你說病人自主權法案嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：對，它的爭議點在什麼地方？最大的爭議點是在哪裡？"],["邱部長泰源：它的爭議點很多，病人自主權法案當時應該是蘇召委那個時代在推……"],["陳委員昭姿：我了解，等一下我還要再跟你談另外一個法案。"],["邱部長泰源：但是我在學界應該也對這個法有相關的……"],["陳委員昭姿：它的爭議點是醫師說政府將責任轉嫁給醫師，就是醫師背負太多的責任。這個東西就是找醫護人員來一起討論嘛！怎麼樣讓他們覺得相對願意做這樣的事情，配合這樣的政策，但是又不是最後把責任都丟給他們，其實爭議點就是這個啦！","部長，民眾黨期待的是有這個病主法，還要有一個尊嚴善終法，才能夠完善善終權，因為病主法保障的是可以拒絕無效醫療，是自然善終的一個選擇；但是尊嚴善終法是進一步讓極度痛苦的人透過嚴謹的程序，他可以自主選擇比較有尊嚴、體面的方式來結束生命，兩者互補，可以完善生命自主跟尊嚴死亡，這是一個現代的價值。部長，衛福部現在好像都不想面對尊嚴善終法這個問題。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們不管是衛福部的各個單位，跟學界、跟相關委員會，始終在面對這個問題，不是沒有面對這個問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我是要提醒你，遲早要面對，因為所有的民調，大概有七、八成的臺灣民眾是支持這個法案的，但這個法案怎麼寫？我知道要很小心、很謹慎，但是我要這樣跟部長說。","部長，賴總統4月27日出席「健康台灣全國論壇」，提了很多見解，您當天也在場，所以你應該都很清楚，賴總統有表示，政府提出癌藥基金100億元，他先編列50億元，但並不是100億元用完就結束，不夠了就補上去，隔年再補，讓這個水庫可以保持一定水位。我想提醒部長，百億癌藥基金是個中繼站的概念，部長知道中繼站過去的意思是，病人要團體期待，然後去參考其他國家的作法，就是有一些加速審查的藥品，可能還沒有完全確定，但是有些病人有需求，所以他讓這個中繼站能夠暫時性的支付這類藥品。目前健保署還沒有改口，雖然我們有很多已經確定療效的、安全性的，都沒有付滿付足，但是這一塊本來是要做這個部分，它是一個中繼站的概念。你看賴總統也是用水庫的概念，水庫的水本來就是進進出出，就是要加速通過藥來用。既然是中繼站的概念，真正的問題是，新藥經過開放性使用，用這筆錢，之後要評估，因為這是暫時性使用，目前大概都兩年，署長，沒有改變吧？大概是兩年後評估，兩年後評估有三個結果。部長，你要聽清楚，賴總統日理萬機，你日理千機、百機，你也是要清楚這件事，石署長更要非常清楚，因為他在執行這件事情。現在兩年後評估結果會有三個，第一個是淘汰出局，這個藥禁不起考驗，被淘汰。第二個，我們覺得時間不夠，要繼續觀察。第三個，他同意了，我們覺得它的療效、安全性都確定了，所以要把它回歸到正常使用。有這三條路可以走。","部長，我要說的是，癌藥不斷地在研發，需求也會增加，百億如何分配？我到現在還看不到。用完怎麼辦？賴總統不能理解得很深入，我覺得是OK的，因為他日理萬機，但賴總統的意思好像是預期會有剩，它先用多少，不夠再補，他預期會有剩。部長，你也認為會有剩嗎？你先不要說，我用我30年的資深專業經驗告訴你，癌症病人絕對會面臨另外一個噩夢，因為錢是不夠用的，要滿足這一塊，幾百億都不夠！最後會怎麼樣呢？就是維持現況，現況是什麼？就是繼續不人道的方式，你限制癌症病人使用的對象變得很小、很窄，然後限制他使用的次數跟時間，這麼多限制，這是第一個，到最後回到現在的噩夢，這個事情我可以確定是這樣。第二個，剛剛我跟你說明過，當挑選後經過評估，因為是中繼站，你要進進出出到哪個地方去？根據美國的經驗，繼續使用，就是確定療效的大概有六成，臺灣沒有經驗，所以我們先用美國的經驗，然後大概有兩成淘汰，還有兩成還要更長時間的觀察。有這兩個事情作為前提，請問部長，衛福部有規劃中長期的財源嗎？還是你想說先擋個兩年、拖個兩年再說呢？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，真的非常敬佩您指教這麼多專業的作法，我相信對於未來在處理癌症新藥的預算能夠有很大的幫助。"],["陳委員昭姿：就讓部長了解，我想石署長應該……"],["邱部長泰源：但是我必須要講，賴總統絕對存著希望……"],["陳委員昭姿：沒問題，賴總統……"],["邱部長泰源：希望病人需要癌藥的時候，我們就是想盡辦法給他充分、足夠、即時……"],["陳委員昭姿：但是你這是去年編的！"],["邱部長泰源：這個部分，後面他立定了一個這麼關懷全國癌症病人的方向以後……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你現在說的是原則，原則部分我沒有問題，我在講實務。"],["邱部長泰源：我們怎麼來把它作法，就是我們必須要把它落實……"],["陳委員昭姿：我開了兩次公聽會，都看不到實務要怎麼做。"],["邱部長泰源：總統也特別強調說，要多少就補多少……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，不好意思，現在在講操作了，我進入實質操作。"],["邱部長泰源：我知道，操作部分我們可以再來說，我只是先跟委員報告，賴總統的心就是要把癌症病人照顧好，降低死亡率……"],["陳委員昭姿：我相信賴總統，他是我的好朋友，他當然要幫助癌症死亡率降低，數字我都會背了。","署長，我剛剛講的這些問題，你有了解嗎？你也知道問題在哪裡嗎？加速的通過，你現在怎麼辦？你準備好了沒有？很快，那你準備好了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：請署長補充一下。"],["石署長崇良：要解決的問題就是，癌症新藥基金等於是讓我們在財務預估上可以更準確，我們現在有的時候還不知道到底使用了多少，如果未來還是會回到健保基金，一樣的，它會回到健保，所以在健保裡面去編列新藥預算的時候，讓它可以估得更準確。"],["陳委員昭姿：等於有一個庫讓你先了解。"],["石署長崇良：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：我可以告訴你，美國大概有六成會回來，六成回來後，錢都準備好了喔！那你讓病人怎麼辦？我治療有效，結果你不讓我繼續用，噩夢出現！"],["石署長崇良：對啊，所以他就會很無縫的接軌。"],["陳委員昭姿：我想你今天也談不出這100億要怎麼分配、怎麼allocation，這個還有很大的問題，還是不夠，因為賴總統不知道，他以為夠，他還說不夠再補回去。不夠的啦！"],["邱部長泰源：賴總統也知道需要再一直補充。"],["陳委員昭姿：不夠的話，問題就來了，你就開始要壓縮使用，壓縮就開始分配，分配就開始要決定誰先用，這個就涉及每一個人的觀點，主審的最大，這個就是我跟你講的，很多人不是真的要去圖利誰，可是他有他自己的想法，這個是很難處理的，所以我也一直很關心這件事情。","我先回到現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你就滴啊好 沒關係這個自從韓國瑜當了立法院院長以後啊這個原本訂好的議事規則不管是周萬來寫的書啊國家考試啊考試院不管考什麼題目啊現在這切全部都要寫例外萬來有一個規則"},{"start":49.4,"end":75.195,"text":"現在都要改作例外情形我認同國家科企科立法院相關的規則的時候可能大家考生都要寫 以上寫完 但是發生過例外這樣搞得算完整這次召委排了三天的會這些題目看起來有漂亮嗎 題目有漂亮嗎我講你不要把我打斷"},{"start":77.64,"end":94.432,"text":"這些題目看起來都還蠻中性的第一天白上第一天白立法院的資安要怎麼處理因為我們的各個行政機關從行政院開始到各縣市政府各級機關都有資安問題"},{"start":97.182,"end":107.713,"text":"這樣就請立法院包括相關的人員 秘書長 所有相關的同仁一起來跟大家說明一下立法院的治安第二個題目叫做立法院院區的空間 議事的空間"},{"start":118.141,"end":128.963,"text":"這當然牽扯到立法院要拔除或是要去其他的縣區要刷去台中、武鴻、澳洲 要刷去哪裡 刷去哪裡這些也可以討論請秘書長針對現在規劃的情形來報告也不來 這第二題第三題就要問說立法院很多的議事規則譬如說聽各位開一刀火"},{"start":148.257,"end":165.527,"text":"這個明明開會時間已經定好,到下午的六點,六點一到大家就解散了嘛,慣例就是這樣嘛,六點一到大家就解散了韓國瑜院長進來我就這樣七點十一開始開會,然後處理相關的議案"},{"start":171.09,"end":187.48,"text":"總是大家問說這是慣例嗎?這個如果符合議事規則,那以後這個就是慣例喔那如果是慣例的話,那以後可能不只這個立法院的院長、副院長,比如說這個"},{"start":189.834,"end":202.299,"text":"莊瑞雄召委,林耕英做召委,或是我做召委開會說今天開到5點半,我6點就12點來處理議案這是不是我們被管理,這也希望立法院的秘書長來跟我們說明一下,議事處長來說明一下來,每個人來今天要的題目"},{"start":214.259,"end":234.766,"text":"說立法院也有可能成為國安的破口嘛因為裡面有立法委員啊有國會助理啊有立法院的議事人員啊很多人都會接觸到所謂的國安的這個文件裡頭可能是有機密的我們今天有寫一個密的開會的時候啊這個機密會議最之前啊這禮拜有一個會叫做不公開會議"},{"start":244.751,"end":263.067,"text":"有一個公開會議 機密會議 還有一個假鬧的 發明一個叫做不公開會議那到底是不是機密會議 總是大家可以問一下那這些題目啊 其實都還蠻中性的因為我們昨晚來秘書長啊 韓國瑜拚來當秘書長的時候吼 明天啊 把他抄大告 惡惡告"},{"start":270.217,"end":277.019,"text":"什麼在活字典,什麼立法委員、國會助理,如果沒有把他寫的文章都不會開花。好,現在大家來了,很認真把他寫,要來做國會助理的,大家手頭都一本,大家來議事處理到一半,不知道就拿一本給我看看。"},{"start":290.953,"end":296.916,"text":"我們這佛寺殿有跟我們說什麼嗎?阿董事就這樣抄大到多厚多厚歷經多少院長,對什麼開始做什麼都罰什麼草野協商都罰,義士過去的爭議什麼都罰俄羅斯給他打字"},{"start":311.206,"end":317.65,"text":"後來當時奇怪的, 韓國的做議長之後, 整個立法院開會都早晨,沒有叫幾個來走,在立法院職權行司法、憲法、訴訟法、選罷法,不管是議事程序,還是法律的解說,昨晚來講的,有個另外一套,這樣韓國的老闆說什麼?"},{"start":340.506,"end":349.393,"text":"韓國瑜如果坐在那裡,昨晚如果跟他說怎麼樣,他就怎麼樣我們議事處長說繼續唸,繼續唸,把他唸完,韓國瑜就把他唸完先韓國瑜不義,韓國瑜就聽兵這幾個一直跟他說,一直獨自調依,一直唸,一直唸,一直唸搞到現在立法院到底開花的規則是什麼,我們也搞不清楚"},{"start":366.613,"end":375.382,"text":"所以我們召委就用心良苦,想說一天不夠,不如請秘書長來讓我們問三天不敢逮捕大家,深入探討一下,不可以來,不可以來也很出名的你如果不可以來,我六種方式,一種你就要親家嘛,親家也很多方式"},{"start":388.787,"end":401.111,"text":"請教一般一開始都要先靠一個電話,跟趙薇說,就另有要講什麼如何如何,不可以來,我要加單,跟金寶來第二種,為了電話沒要靠就一條,加一條公文來,我就沒辦法來不然就是把整季出來說,這就如何如何,所以照過去幾十年來的慣例,我就興奮上,沒辦法去,所以如何如何"},{"start":417.998,"end":432.942,"text":"可是我們這裏的秘書長,這些動作都沒有做都沒有做,書面的文件都沒有,端端的不可以來,還有請韓國的寫一張文情並茂,還有燙金的什麼,那也不是叫請假單,那也不是什麼單,像現在還有一張抓來,這裏沒有人,這裏人一張抓就沒有"},{"start":442.622,"end":447.905,"text":"這次就是發動媒體,叫媒體跟各位委員說,我沒有要去就算是小白,昨晚來這種就算是小白啦,大型啦小白啦,大型啦,當作自己多厲害,剛多厲害啦我要說啦,那個什麼新聞局啦,那個什麼湯津的那個長大啦那絕對不是韓國的事啦,韓國還不夠多"},{"start":470.714,"end":474.596,"text":"那些人早晚來自己寫的啦 自己提自己寫說不可以來的理由啦像這種的 在書上都會記載的 會記載那些缺席的像莊瑞雄早晚擺這個廢料 除了這個早晚來沒來 創下紀錄一番你這樣三天沒到黃國昌三天沒有登記發言"},{"start":495.953,"end":508.404,"text":"這如果算出席率就對了 該委員會出席率 黃國昌是缺席三次欸 你們這抄什麼給我看好黃國昌有三天沒有來開會 簽到完就跑了簽到完就跑 黃國昌有三天 簽完到就跑了沒有登記發言 第一次看到黃國昌會怕 不敢來發言 為什麼"},{"start":521.257,"end":523.261,"text":"為什麼 因為現在北蘭的人說的就糾正了嘛就靠你們說都不可以來 不可以來 還要顧名叼義 還要來遷到"},{"start":532.213,"end":536.577,"text":"你們白臘娘娘在這個會不能叫祖母奶奶 你們千刀就不可以 又沽名釣譽好 叫我會議紀錄頂管 沒我們的名字 哎呦 當個酸民的我們在廠裡說 國產老師怎麼沒有去開會 國產老師怎麼沒有去開會啊 過去 頂記了 快來鬧跑 怎麼沒有登記發言"},{"start":552.521,"end":572.549,"text":"為什麼沒有登記花園啊王國昌你為什麼三天都沒有登記花園啊你給他唱啊 講啊那你如果不登記 你為什麼還簽到你為什麼還簽到 顧名釣譽啦顧名釣譽啦 他要過一個月才說我哪有沒有人去 我覺得人家有簽到對啊你有簽到啊但是連登記花園都沒有啊這個都是喔 因為週末來沒辦法來演化的後續的這個效果"},{"start":581.257,"end":588.2,"text":"因為這個出來的這個效果好,但是說昨晚來不來,不來請教連書面資料也不給連書面資料也不給今天說這個立法院領綱的議事空間是要怎麼處理是不是有這個簽證啊什麼的計畫嘛這個案子很久了,很久了"},{"start":608.578,"end":630.672,"text":"阿目前的進度是怎樣阿昨晚來也來做一年多阿韓國的也做一年多做一年多阿目前進度是怎樣連一張帳都不該跟人家說連一個進度都不跟國人說明這是傲慢傲慢啦 漂白啦 大型啦就是這樣第二個"},{"start":634.241,"end":648.838,"text":"大家問說立法院有國安破口 立法院有沒有國安的機制啊防止這個破口 不管是資安的破口 人員啊可能涉及的這個國安相關的這個破口那你懷疑這陣子也有回到這個情形嗎"},{"start":654.086,"end":665.735,"text":"總是做一個立法院的行政單位包括秘書長、資訊相關的單位、副執行總是要來替大家報告一下說現在立法院要處理國安的問題、資安的問題現在到底我們做了什麼樣的努力沒有,連一張座也沒有"},{"start":684.551,"end":696.179,"text":"不要請教,不給書面資料,也不跟召委商量一下,說我怎麼樣就怎麼樣,怎麼樣就怎麼樣,沒辦法怎麼樣,怎麼樣也沒有這如果成為慣例,以後我們的行政部門,醫療就對了行政院長,也一樣如法炮製,衝一場燙金的端來"},{"start":714.523,"end":731.132,"text":"我還要講喔 臨江啊 我們這什麼內政部長不可以去我們這交通部長不可以去 我也不可以去 我們就都不可以去 啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊啊"},{"start":744.171,"end":770.748,"text":"後來把吳宗憲召委擺的議程請司法院的副秘書長來司法院的副秘書長來如果司法院一樣發一個公文來說不好意思比照辦理立法院秘書長不出席我司法院的副秘書長也不出席我的總統府以後也不要出席"},{"start":771.618,"end":775.824,"text":"那請問禮拜一 我就看禮拜一吳宗憲要怎麼主持看禮拜一吳宗憲要怎麼主持"},{"start":784.542,"end":793.908,"text":"你國民黨做招委,你就要求這行政部門的秘書長、副秘書長都要來,如果不要來就在叭叭叫,黨議黨的口水噴,整個麥克風都熄,都在咆哮"},{"start":804.464,"end":829.871,"text":"啊 你們香港的領導的立法院 昨晚來 立法院秘書站不該來齁 你們這樣幾天 顧名釣譽 命沉沉地繞跑不敢登記花園 不敢做任何的抨擊啊 想這種的感冒喔 這抄襪牆 你們也看一看啊 你們民眾黨的 都在點點 都可以不要來齁 黃國昌缺席三次 蹺課"},{"start":832.261,"end":833.802,"text":"蹺課!蹺課!這樣沒有人會這樣啦這招委喔,白哲文也很辛苦,我一天7塊就招委,白哲這個帝寶我想說,這帝寶也很中性的你來就說明,沒得說明就叫車旁邊的處長什麼議事處長,什麼處長來倒過也可以啊"},{"start":854.537,"end":869.268,"text":"都不要來,沒有來跟你譴責是剛好而已所以今天去啦,當然我對面這個周恩來秘書長今天是沒有來啦啊沒有來,我們說實在的,沒有來,我們也沒有辦法逼他來啦我們這個周圍算客氣啦,你看人家後來拜日吳宗憲面對有人沒有來,人家的態度是怎樣"},{"start":881.622,"end":898.561,"text":"對不對 你是跟資深衝突得好啊 你如果吳宗憲處理這條就沒什麼用了我就看吳宗憲後來拜他 有辦法像我們這個莊瑞相遭的 劈起劍以後 再做到他娓娓道來"},{"start":901.086,"end":913.45,"text":"說一些成語好,我今天就質詢到這裡就請趙偉安排這三天的議程終於讓我在第三天有講到話了好,謝謝趙偉好,謝謝王一川委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":46,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時11分）謝謝召委，有請周萬來秘書長。"],["主席：沒來啦！你就在那邊……"],["王委員義川：沒關係。自從韓國瑜當了立法院院長以後，原本定好的議事規則，不管是周萬來寫的書，國家考試考試院不管考什麼題目，現在全部都要寫例外。本來是有個規則的，現在都要改成例外情形，我看哪天國家考試要考立法院相關的規則時，可能每個考生都要寫「以上寫完，但是發生過例外」，這樣才算完整。","這次召委排了3天的會，這些題目看起來……"],["主席：有漂亮嗎？題目漂亮嗎？"],["王委員義川：我在講，你別打斷我。"],["主席：好。"],["王委員義川：這些題目看起來都還滿中性的，第一天排什麼呢？第一天是排立法院的資安要怎麼處理，因為各個行政機關，從行政院開始到各縣市政府的各級機關都有資安問題，於是就請立法院，包括相關的人員，秘書長率相關的同仁一起向大家說明一下立法院的資安，但都沒來。第二個題目叫做立法院的院區空間、議事的空間，這當然會牽涉到立法院要不要搬遷，或是要有其他的院區，像是要移到臺中、霧峰、烏日，也有人說要移到哪、移到哪，這些也可以討論啊！請秘書長針對現在規劃的情形來報告，也不來！這是第二題。第三題是問，立法院有很多的議事規則，譬如上個月有開過一場會，明明開會時間已經定好了，就是到下午6點。6點一到大家就解散了，慣例就是這樣，韓國瑜院長竟然有辦法在7點的時候摸進來，開始開會，然後處理相關的議案。所以大家總是要問，這是慣例了嗎？這個如果符合議事規則，那以後這個就是慣例了，如果是慣例的話，以後可能不只是立法院的院長、副院長，譬如莊瑞雄召委，哪天他當召委還是我當召委在開會的時候說今天開到5點半，我到6點就摸進來處理議案，這是不是可以變成慣例，這也希望立法院的秘書長跟我們說明一下，也請議事處長來說明一下，但他們都不屑來。","今天的題目是，立法院也有可能成為國安的破口嗎？因為裡面的立法委員，有國會助理，也有立法院的議事人員，有很多人都會接觸到所謂機密的國安文件，就是在文件上有寫「密」字的，或是在開會的時候，開的是機密會議，像這禮拜有個會就是不公開會議。會議有公開會議、機密會議，還有一位假能幹的發明一個叫做「不公開會議」，那個到底是不是機密會議？總是要讓大家問一下。這些題目其實都還滿中性的，因為周萬來秘書長被韓國瑜聘來當秘書長的時候，媒體把他吹捧成、誇讚成什麼活字典，說什麼立法委員、國會助理如果沒有讀他寫的那本書，都不會開會。現在大家來就很認真讀他的書，要來當國會助理的手上都有一本，大家如果處理議事處理到一半不知怎麼處理，就再拿那本翻來看這個活字典跟我們說什麼。當時就這樣諸多吹捧，說有多麼厲害，說歷經多少院長，從什麼開始做，什麼都懂，什麼朝野協商也都懂，對於過去議事的爭議，什麼都懂，讚美有加！既然讚美有加，就奇怪了！韓國瑜當院長之後，整個立法院開會都走樣，沒有照規矩走，什麼立法院職權行使法、憲法訴訟法、什麼選罷法，不管是議事程序，還是對於法律的解釋，周萬來講的又是另外一套，把韓國瑜拖得暈頭轉向。韓國瑜坐在那裡，周萬來跟他說怎樣，他就怎樣，議事處長說繼續唸、繼續唸，把它唸完，韓國瑜就把它唸完。這樣陷韓國瑜於不義！韓國瑜就聽旁邊這幾個一直跟他說，一直拿字條給他，他就一直唸、一直唸，搞到現在立法院的開會規則到底是什麼，也搞不清楚！所以我們召委就用心良苦，想說問一天不夠，不然，請秘書長來讓我們問三天，就不同的題目，大家深入探討一下。","結果他不要來，他不要來也很有趣！不要來有好幾種方式，一種要請假，請假也有很多方式，一般一開始都要先打個電話跟召委說另有要公怎樣怎樣不能來，假單再趕快補來，第二種、有的不打電話，就直接寄一張公文來，說沒辦法來，不然就是拿規矩出來，說怎樣怎樣，照過去幾十年來的慣例，身分上就沒辦法來，所以怎樣怎樣。可是這次我們的秘書長都沒做這些動作，都沒做，書面的文件都沒有，上次不要來還有請韓國瑜寫一張文情並茂而且燙金的單，那也不是請假單，不知是什麼單，至少還有一張紙來，這次不一樣，這次連一張紙都沒有，這次就是發給媒體，叫媒體跟委員說他不要來。這算囂張啦！周萬來這種的算囂張啦！忘形啦！囂張啦！忘形啦！當作自己多麼厲害，我跟你說，那個什麼新聞稿，那個燙金的什麼單，絕對不是韓國瑜寫的，韓國瑜哪裡懂那麼多，那是周萬來自己寫的，自己替自己寫不要來的理由啦！像這種的，歷史上都會記載，會記載他缺席耶！","你知不知道，莊瑞雄召委排定這個會之後，除了周萬來沒來創下紀錄以外，他這樣三天沒來搞到黃國昌三天沒有登記發言，如果這要算該委員會出席率，黃國昌是缺席三次耶！你們這些草仔和蔥仔要看好，黃國昌有三天沒有來開會，簽到完就跑了，簽到完就跑，黃國昌有三天簽完到就跑了，沒有登記發言。如果要第一個發言的話，看到黃國昌會怕，不敢來發言，為什麼？為什麼？因為現在白藍二黨都知會了，下令都不能來，不能來，還要沽名釣譽，來簽到。你們白藍二黨如果認為這個會不能叫周萬來來，你們連簽到都不行，還要沽名釣譽，害怕會議紀錄上面沒有你們的名字，回去會被選民罵，那些蔥仔會說國昌老師怎麼沒有去開會？國昌老師怎麼沒有去開會？所以乾脆登記後趕快跑，不然怎麼沒有登記發言？為什麼沒有登記發言？黃國昌，你為什麼三天都沒有登記發言？你跟蔥仔說清楚，那你如果不登記發言，為什麼還簽到？你為什麼還簽到？沽名釣譽啦！沽名釣譽啦！過1個月以後他會說他哪裡沒有來，他明明有簽到，對啊！他有簽到，但是連登記發言都沒有！這個都是因為周萬來不要來衍生的後續效果，衍生出來的效果。","再來，周萬來不要來也不請假，連書面資料也不給，連書面資料也不給。要問他關於未來立法院的議事空間要怎麼處理，是不是有什麼遷建的計畫？這個也推動很久了，好幾屆了，目前的進度是怎樣？周萬來也到任一年多了，韓國瑜也任院長一年多了，目前這個進度是怎樣？連一張紙都不跟我們說，連一個進度都不跟國人說明，這是傲慢，傲慢啦！囂張啦！忘形啦！就是這種的。第二個、大家要問既然立法院有國安破口，立法院有沒有國安的機制防止這個破口？不管是資安的破口，人員可能涉及國安的相關破口，立法院這陣子也有遇到這種情形，作為立法院的行政單位，包括秘書長，還有資安相關的、資訊相關的單位、負責人，總是要來跟大家報告一下，說現在為了要處理這些國安的問題、資安的問題，到底立法院做了什麼樣的努力。結果沒有，連一張紙也不給，不請假，不給書面資料，也不跟召委商量一下，說他怎樣怎樣，所以沒辦法來，也沒有！","這如果成為慣例，以後我們的行政部門、行政院長也一樣如法炮製，弄一張燙金的單來，我跟你說，到時候說內政部長不能來、交通部長不能來、他也不能來，他們都不能來，怎樣怎樣的，這樣可行嗎？這樣不可行啊！既然不可行，為什麼周萬來要立下這個示範？我們今天請立法院秘書長來報告，他不要來，下禮拜吳宗憲召委排定的議程，請司法院的副秘書長來，如果司法院一樣發一個公文來說不好意思！比照辦理，立法院秘書長不出席，司法院的副秘書長也不出席，總統府以後也不要出席。我就看禮拜一吳宗憲要怎麼主持，看禮拜一吳宗憲要怎麼主持！你們國民黨委員當召委的時候，就要求行政部門的秘書長、副秘書長都要來，如果不要來、不來，你們就在那邊叭叭叫，用力捶椅子、桌子，口水噴得整個麥克風都是，在那邊咆哮，你們韓國瑜領導的立法院周萬來秘書長不要來，你們就這樣整群沽名釣譽，簽名之後就跑，不敢登記發言，不敢做任何抨擊，像這種的有用嗎？草仔和蔥仔也看一下，民眾黨的都默不作聲，都可以不來，黃國昌缺席三次，蹺課！蹺課！蹺課！沒人這樣啦！","召委排這個也是很辛苦，一開始看到召委排定這個題目，我想這個也很中性，你來就說明，沒辦法說明就請旁邊的處長，什麼議事處長、什麼處長，來幫忙說也可以，結果都不要來，不要來，給你譴責是剛好而已！當然我對面這個周萬來秘書長今天是沒來、沒來！我們說實在的，我們也沒辦法逼他來啦！我們召委也算客氣，你就看人家下禮拜一，吳宗憲面對有人沒來的態度是怎樣，對不對？你是比較資深、風度比較好，如果是吳宗憲處理這件事就不太一樣，喔，就那樣「叭叭叫」！我就看吳宗憲下禮拜一有沒有辦法像我們莊瑞雄召委脾氣這麼好，還坐在那邊娓娓道來、說一些成語？","好，我今天就質詢到這裡，謝謝召委安排這3天的議程，終於讓我在第三天講到話了，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝王義川委員，他很認真的到場，不能因為行政部門的官員沒有到場而讓大家都沒有機會發言。","接下來，我們請陳培瑜委員發言。我會說「發言」的原因就是，要質詢卻沒人，你自己看看！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":172,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-14","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","沈發惠"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2025-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1144501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請立法院秘書長、議事處處長、法制局局長列席就「防止立法院成為國安破口─ 避免共諜滲\n透、機敏資訊洩漏等國安事件之防制措施」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144501_00003"}}},{"id":"160847","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160847","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/872e8bbe37846fc0316dd71d920c76334de01e9c6ce9529705daebae4db85f91c59471bd01b9acfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"09:16:50 - 09:25:56","影片長度":"00:09:06","會議時間":"2025-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、本院委員魯明哲等 19 人擬具「再生能源發展條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員謝衣鳯等 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但是這個需要時間大概目前進度是什麼時候這個第一個乾式儲存槽可以完成呢我們現在這個核一已經完成那核二現在施工中大概預計核二什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":233.918,"end":241.44,"text":"大概今年的年底可以完成大概明年就可以拿到執照那核三目前有任何進度呢核三還沒有還沒有那等於說明年的這個時候你就會有核你就有核一核二的乾式儲存槽你施施移到乾式之後你就多了兩個核電廠的核廢料儲存的空間"},{"start":257.843,"end":278.852,"text":"所以這個對於我們要研議是非常正面的剩下最後的這個全民共識啊其實這個這個氣候變遷國家氣候變遷對策委員會的副召集人童子賢先生他都說了台灣民意對於核能研議已有共識是不是你覺得需要公投再進一步確認這個共識呢我認為是不用公投啦"},{"start":282.774,"end":302.751,"text":"所以你覺得全民共識已經有達標了嗎這個不是這麼需要公投才能夠解決的共識問題那這個共識我們意思就是說其實所謂共識對我們來講因為是對安全上面有顧慮的人那我們如果去跟他取得共識"},{"start":303.692,"end":321.741,"text":"那就這個核能的運轉那這個核廢料可以處理那這兩個如果能夠解決我想大概他擔心的就是所以核廢料處理您已經在掌握之中了嗎然後包括說這個核能的安全核安全的部分我們認為這個全球這麼多的專家大家可以證明事實上這個40年的運作我們也沒有看到它出過問題"},{"start":330.666,"end":347.555,"text":"沒錯 那所以現在問題就出在於會不會代表未來的20年是不是安全的這個我想要專家判斷那是不是可以競速做一個評估呢那這個東西我想報告委員也不是說公投就能夠代表大家就可以看安全一定要專家認可是 那可不可以請部長競速的指示趕快請專家開始評估因為這件事情是刻不容緩因為河三廠的二號機在5月17號停機之後"},{"start":359.562,"end":363.585,"text":"會產生什麼問題你知道嗎產生的問題是 沒錯台灣達到非核家園但是火力發電廠的比重將高達84%你知道我們中南部中南部的空氣品質有多差嗎你知道我們中南部的孩子都在用廢發電所以這個火力發電的比重提高對於空氣影響的"},{"start":385.282,"end":407.433,"text":"河山沒有這個停止運轉之前也是81啊那你的意思是說增加3%對你來說沒有差對你來說沒有差但是對於我就是希望說您在政策推進上要多一份謹慎多一份同理心就是要更多的證據來證明啊你這些"},{"start":410.895,"end":414.519,"text":"這個核電停運之後84%的這個火力發電如何不會讓這個空氣品質變差你要說服的是這些地方的父母們我是希望說"},{"start":427.732,"end":448.637,"text":"部長 你不要跟我說3%沒有差希望你有同理心我們都希望台灣的能源是更有韌性 更安全這是我們共同努力的目標但是你不能跟我說3%沒有差這樣子的話 我相信不只本行沒辦法接受甚至所有的地方政府都沒有辦法接受我不是講說 這個就是我們在努力的"},{"start":449.577,"end":465.854,"text":"我們從113年的3.4萬公噸那114年我們可以下降到3.1萬公噸我們是在下降的並沒有增加的不像你所說的說84它就是增加的我們是下降的"},{"start":466.394,"end":470.918,"text":"那你們要繼續努力繼續下降因為本德比照台中火力發電廠在美國的雜誌ClimateTrace上面它是全世界碳排放量名列前茅在全世界都是名列前茅你仔細看所以"},{"start":486.972,"end":492.335,"text":"下降是對的 繼續下降是對的我們希望空氣品質可以越來越好然後我們的這個供電也能夠穩定就是核能如果可以研議的話我們台灣的產業才有希望我們台灣未來才有競爭力嘛好不好 部長您是這個競技總舵主你要繼續加油我們是多元的電力啦您的指教我們都會認真的來思考"},{"start":511.644,"end":528.05,"text":"我們的共識也是讓這個台灣的空氣更好台灣的這個運作台灣的電力更清新這是無人質疑但是我要跟委員報告但是81%到83%不會像你所說的說哇大家開始靠廢數你87%本來那個基準就很高啦對啦所以不會說這樣慘了"},{"start":534.392,"end":537.178,"text":"我們完全跟你的想法是一樣我們都是為了國人的健康在努力謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":70,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（9時16分）主席，我想請郭部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長早安。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，你今天頭髮吹得特別帥喔！讚美你一下。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，最近我非常關心你，你在網路節目接受專訪，針對核能延役的議題提出不少具體的看法跟想法。上上週本席也有提醒你，或許購買核電設備甚至它的技術，對於美國對等關稅的談判是一個對臺灣很好的籌碼。顯然你很願意深入面對現在政府錯誤能源政策的調整跟挑戰，本席在此要表示肯定。但是能源問題並不是朝夕可解的，我想要瞭解目前您具體的看法為何？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，所謂的錯誤或者正確是要假以時日才能夠斷定，每一個時間都有當時的需求，我們現在是……"],["張委員嘉郡：目前針對核能延役的部分，您說您有具體的想法，可以說明一下嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，對於您剛才講的新的科技技術，我想我們基本上的原則就是不會排斥，我們也歡迎討論。對於剛才所指導的核能的部分，我們基本上就是三個原則……"],["張委員嘉郡：我知道，核能安全、全民共識、核廢料處理問題。你看，你講到我都會背了！這的確非常重要。我想要知道，假設本院通過將安全年限延長到60年的話，經濟部目前有在做任何積極準備嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：各種情況、各種準備我們都有。"],["張委員嘉郡：有嗎？類似什麼準備？"],["郭部長智輝：譬如說去年我們就知道核能機組會在這個月下載，但是去年開始進行一號機下載的時候，我們的人並沒有解散，我們所有的人都留著……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你把他們保留住？"],["郭部長智輝：包括核二的人，我們都是留著的，因為這些人的核能操作經驗是非常珍貴的。"],["張委員嘉郡：寶貴的！"],["郭部長智輝：是！"],["張委員嘉郡：所以針對核能安全，就是你講的第一項核能安全的部分，很多專家學者都有多次正面評估，覺得這是可行的，至於核廢處理，您在節目中也提到目前的乾式貯存是可行的，現在看起來，剩下的關鍵就是全民共識了啊！"],["郭部長智輝：因為之前我們的乾貯場跟地方政府申請一直都沒有下來……"],["張委員嘉郡：去年通過了啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是，所以剛通過嘛！我們現在才開始在建置……"],["張委員嘉郡：這個進度為何呢？"],["郭部長智輝：這個是短期的，乾貯還是短暫的，這個沒有辦法……"],["張委員嘉郡：但是把濕貯轉到乾貯，濕貯就挪出空位了啊！"],["郭部長智輝：對，但是這個需要時間。"],["張委員嘉郡：目前的進度是什麼時候第一個乾式貯存場可以完成呢？"],["郭部長智輝：核一已經完成了，核二正在施工中。"],["張委員嘉郡：核二預計什麼時候可以完成？"],["郭部長智輝：大概今年年底可以完成，明年就可以拿到執照。"],["張委員嘉郡：那核三呢？核三目前有任何進度嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：核三還沒有。"],["張委員嘉郡：還沒有？那等於明年的這個時候你就有核一、核二的乾式貯存場，移到乾式貯存場之後，你就多了兩個核電廠的核廢料貯存空間耶！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以這對於我們要延役是非常正面的，就剩下最後的全民共識。其實國家氣候變遷對策委員會的副召集人童子賢先生都說了，臺灣民意對於核能延役已有共識，你是不是覺得需要公投進一步確認這個共識呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我認為是不用公投啦！"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你覺得全民共識已經達標了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這不是需要公投才能夠解決的共識問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：那這個共識怎麼來？"],["郭部長智輝：我們的意思就是說，其實所謂的共識對我們來講，是對安全上面有顧慮的人，我們如何去跟他取得共識。就核能的運轉，核廢料可以處理，這兩個如果能夠解決，我想他擔心的大概就可以取消。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以核廢料的處理您已經在掌握之中了嘛！然後包括核能的安全，應該也是……"],["郭部長智輝：核能安全的部分，我們認為全球這麼多專家，大家可以證明，事實上40年的運作，我們沒有看到它出過問題嘛，但是……"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯。所以現在問題……"],["郭部長智輝：但這是不是代表未來20年是安全的？這個我想要專家判斷。"],["張委員嘉郡：那是不是可以儘速做一個評估呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個東西我想也不是公投就能夠代表大家就可以說它安全，一定要專家認可它安全，我們才能相信它是安全的。"],["張委員嘉郡：那部長是不是可以儘速指示，趕快請專家開始評估，因為這件事情刻不容緩。核三廠二號機在5月17日停機之後會產生什麼問題，你知道嗎？沒錯，臺灣會達到非核家園，但是火力發電廠的比重將高達84%！你知道我們中南部的空氣品質有多差嗎？你知道我們中南部的孩子都在用肺發電！所以，這個火力發電的比重提高，對於空氣影響的……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，核三沒有停止運轉之前也是81%啊，對不對？差3%而已……"],["張委員嘉郡：那你的意思是說增加3%對你來說沒有差？"],["郭部長智輝：3%會影響到那麼多嗎？"],["張委員嘉郡：對你來說沒有差，但是對於……"],["郭部長智輝：大數法則告訴我們這根本就不是太大的問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：我就是希望您在政策推進上要多一份謹慎、多一份同理心！就是用更多證據來證明啊！核電停止運轉後，84%的火力發電如何不會讓空氣品質變差？你要說服的是這些地方的父母們！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們補這個3%的部分是零碳的再生能源跟低碳的……"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，你不要跟我說3%沒有差！希望你有同理心！我們都希望臺灣的能源更有韌性、更安全，這是我們共同努力的目標，但是你不能跟我說3%沒有差，這樣子的話，我相信不只本席沒辦法接受，甚至所有的地方政府也都沒辦法接受！"],["郭部長智輝：不是喔！委員，我不是講說它……這個就是我們在努力的……"],["張委員嘉郡：對！你就講這一句嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：我們從113年的3.4萬公噸；114年我們可以下降到3.1萬公噸了，我們是在下降的，並沒有增加，不像你所說的84%就是增加的，我們是下降的！所以就下降的部分……"],["張委員嘉郡：那你們要繼續努力、繼續下降，因為……"],["郭部長智輝：我們會報告給委員知道，你不能講那個比例，說從81%升到84%……"],["張委員嘉郡：因為美國網站Climate 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那我們怎麼辦我們怎麼處理"},{"start":263.42,"end":286.462,"text":"報告委員我想您的這個部分的槌尋我想我們可以了解一個關鍵也就是說我們在事前沒有跟這個地方的居民有做一個比較好的溝通所以在進行這件事情的時候當然造成居民的不解造成反對"},{"start":287.623,"end":310.054,"text":"那這個部分我想這個案子來講我們中央的態度還是一樣就是說任何的公共的措施任何的辦法在推動的時候我們還是要尋求到當地居民的支持我想這個政府的政策如果沒有國人的支持政府施政大概意義就不大"},{"start":310.754,"end":321.165,"text":"所以我想這一部分我們會再多多溝通等到那個居民同意那我們才會可能再來考慮放行這個是我們的做法"},{"start":322.082,"end":348.705,"text":"那剛才您在說的這個法的部分我想這個也是這個各位大院裡面的這些委員大家來協助對我們這個比較這個方法上面發現有一些比較這個有疏漏的地方的話我想我們這個都可以討論來做修正原則上我們的這個所有的這個綠能政策我們都希望能夠獲得國人的支持"},{"start":349.385,"end":370.752,"text":"那當地的居民如果他們有反對我們也不會強硬的來通過這樣的一個做法部長真的要拜託我們一定要跟所有的光電業者說我們如果可以開大門走大路事前讓所有的居民知道到底你要做什麼事前溝通絕對會比反彈之後的溝通"},{"start":374.901,"end":394.483,"text":"更好來做處理可是你現在大家都反彈了已經對你廠商沒有信任感所以真的這個你們要把關注而且將心比心如果你周邊你住的環境全部都被光電板全部都圍起來了"},{"start":396.274,"end":409.571,"text":"你的心你會安嗎是 我想我們大家的想法都會一致啦齁這個部分我們會來這個檢討來改善再拜託部長然後我認為其實有很多我們農業部有劃設出來"},{"start":412.434,"end":436.123,"text":"離我們居民比較遠的地方像有些是根本餘溫養殖已經沒有辦法去做處理的還有就是貧瘠地沒辦法建造沒辦法允許沒辦法建造這個部分為什麼我們都不去做這些的一個規劃這些都離人民很遠反而他們都要往人民"},{"start":437.684,"end":462.646,"text":"去擠 去壓 這不是很奇怪嗎是是 報告委員我們現在已經朝這個方向在努力了我們將來會公告哪一些地方是適合光電業者去開發的我們會先公告我們甚至鼓勵他也沒有問題啊 是是不是因為我知道在平擠地他可能距離會比較遠他要做的匱限或所有的設施會比較花重本"},{"start":463.567,"end":465.868,"text":"所以我覺得我們不能說因為這樣子然後讓光電業者為了要獲利然後往我們民眾然後人民的一個居住範圍去壓這是不對的我們這個一定會以國人的福祉為第一優先不會以業者的福祉為第一優先"},{"start":481.477,"end":501.597,"text":"所以部長拜託這個案子請你們要把關好請我們能源署一定要把關好你們的把關才會讓光電業者會有壓力啊這個部分再拜託在還沒有人民民眾同意之前你絕對不能核發工作許可證這個是很重要的拜託謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":42,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時8分）謝謝主席，我們請部長還有能源署署長。"],["主席：部長、署長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長好。4月18號其實我們辦公室就已經轉了的麻豆「大地莊園」的陳情書給能源署，他們的立場很簡單，誰都知道光電很重要，但要取之有道，我們一直要求光電業者必須要溝通協調。如果你住了二十年的環境，這個環境是過去臺南縣政府蘇煥智縣長一直強調要做臺灣第一個綠建築的莊園，這邊住了非常多人，是一個集中型住宅，結果在二十年後，突然之間他可能一覺醒來周邊全部都變成光電板！雖然是屋頂型光電板，它還是光電板，而且必須是在室內養殖，有一個實質建物之後，在上面蓋光電板，等於周邊全部都是水泥建物，然後上面加光電板。將心比心，他們完全被蒙在鼓裡都不知道，當他們看到一棟一棟的室內養殖如雨後春筍慢慢出現的時候，才發現茲事體大，原來不是只要做室內養殖，要做的是屋頂型光電板，難怪整個炸鍋！他們求助無門，最後拿了這一個陳情書來給我，他們陸續還在簽署。","我一直都跟經濟部還有能源署說，我們為什麼不開大門走大路？今天我們一直強調你要跟地方溝通，每一次廠商都是先斬後奏，廠商已經看到、拿到了相關執照之後，讓地方民眾產生反彈，你要去溝通，請問你要怎麼溝通？為什麼每一次在臺南都發生這樣的事件，每一次都讓人民很失望？部長，這個部分其實很單純，但單純到讓地方政府跟中央在踢皮球，為什麼？地方政府現在切開，因為室內養殖是拿地方政府的農許，當有農許之後可以蓋室內養殖後，他可以跟能源署申請屋頂型光電板，它是不用環評的。所以他就是用這樣以法玩法的方式，這樣的作法造成地方反彈。現在問題到了你們這裡，設屋頂型光電板一定要跟能源署申請工作許可證，那我們怎麼辦？我們怎麼處理？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，您這個部分的垂詢，我們可以了解一個關鍵，也就是我們在事前沒有跟地方居民做一個比較好的溝通，所以進行這件事情的時候當然造成居民不解而反對。就這個案子來講，我們中央的態度還是一樣，就是任何公共措施、任何辦法在推動的時候，我們還是要尋求當地居民的支持，我想政府的建設如果沒有國人的支持，政府的施政大概意義就不大。所以這一部分我們會再多多溝通，等到居民同意，我們再考慮放行，這是我們的作法。","那剛才您在說的法的部分，我想這也是要請大院裡面的各位委員大家來協助，對於我們在方法上面發現一些比較有疏漏的地方的話，我們都可以討論做修正。原則上我們所有的綠能政策都希望能夠獲得國人的支持，當地居民如果有反對，我們也不會強硬通過這樣的一個作法。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，真的要拜託，我們一定要跟所有的光電業者說，如果可以開大門走大路，事前讓所有的居民知道到底你要做什麼，事前溝通絕對會比反彈之後的溝通更好處理。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：可是現在大家都反彈了，已經對廠商沒有信任感，所以真的這個你們要把關。"],["郭部長智輝：我們會要求。"],["陳委員亭妃：而且將心比心。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：如果你周邊、你住的環境全部都被光電板圍起來了，你會心安嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我想我們大家的想法都會一致，這個部分我們會檢討改善。"],["陳委員亭妃：再拜託部長。然後我認為其實有很多農業部有劃設出來，離居民比較遠的地方，像有些是根本魚塭、養殖已經沒有辦法處理的，還有就是無法耕作、無法養殖的貧瘠地，這個部分為什麼我們都不去做相關的規劃？這些都離居民很遠，反而他們都要往居民多的地方去擠、去壓，這不是很奇怪嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我們現在已經朝這個方向在努力了，我們將來會公告哪些地方是適合光電業者去開發的；我們會先公告。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們甚至鼓勵他也沒有問題啊！是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為我知道貧瘠地可能距離會比較遠，他要做的饋線等所有設施會比較花重本，可是我們不能因為這樣，就讓光電業者為了獲利而往人民的居住範圍去壓，這是不對的！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們一定會以國人的福祉為第一優先，不會以業者的福祉為第一優先。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以部長拜託，這個案子請你們一定要把關。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["陳委員亭妃：請能源署一定要把關。你們有把關，才會讓光電業者有壓力，這個部分再拜託！"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員亭妃：在民眾還沒有同意之前，你絕對不能核發工作許可證，這個是很重要的，拜託！謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝。現在請張嘉郡委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-11","speakers":["謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","張嘉郡","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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