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宣讀上次會議議事錄決定決定二 邀請立法院秘書長 議事處處長 法治局局長列席就防止立法院成為國安破口避免共諜滲透 機敏資訊洩漏等國安事件之防止措施進行專題報告並被質詢"},{"start":1882.293,"end":1908.731,"text":"本次會議由委員王逸川等三人提出質詢委員審發會陳培瑜提出書面質詢決定一 發言完畢二 委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關 金蘇 松膠個別委員及本會通過臨時提案以上宣讀完畢好 那我們首先介紹在場委員王逸川委員接著我們介紹到場官員"},{"start":1911.693,"end":1937.428,"text":"今天總統府的跟國安會總統府秘書長跟國安會秘書長有請聯絡人來表達說他們拒絕到會那接著我們介紹司法院因為副秘書長請假所以有刑事廳理聽長"},{"start":1940.406,"end":1954.816,"text":"法務部正部長 正名簽部長法務部調查局 陳百利局長廉政署署長 封城署長國安局副局長 黃明昭副局長"},{"start":1959.016,"end":1986.745,"text":"區議會及介紹的列席代表請參閱名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報紀錄本次會議有排定星期一、三兩天為一次會今天邀請總統府秘書長、國安會秘書長等機關率所屬相關單位就近期連環爆發總統府國安會議外交部遭共諜滲透及忠誠安全查核不足導致國家機密資料外洩提出檢討報告及相關防護"},{"start":1988.145,"end":1992.449,"text":"防治措施之預算執行請醒並進行專題報告被質詢現在先進行報告 每會發言時間三分鐘我們請法務部正部長報告"},{"start":2018.056,"end":2018.238,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":2030.773,"end":2054.087,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 早安那今天奉邀列席貴賓會就近期連環爆發總統府 國安會 外交部等遭共諜滲透及中層安全查核不足導致國家居民外洩提出檢討報告及相關防治措施的預算執行進行代表本部列席報並被執行自報告如下"},{"start":2055.205,"end":2075.28,"text":"那境外敵對勢力對我國滲透及清搜的手段區域精緻化及全面化以從傳統間諜活動擴展至高科技產業、學術機構、政府機關及地方基層組織系統性收集我國政、軍、經及科技機密近來發生公職人員遭受滲透"},{"start":2076.87,"end":2096.258,"text":"提供公務機密情質基因檢查機關偵辦及羈押及刑事案件顯示當時滲透手段隱密性高滲透對象不分層級領域面對這種非傳統複合型的國家安全威脅需精進偵查能量建構更具前瞻性以任性的國防防線面對當前危機"},{"start":2097.378,"end":2116.512,"text":"那本部的立場跟作為是強化公務人員特殊的查核機制本部調查負責涉及國家安全及重大利益公務人員特殊查核並由主管機關全面檢討及修正相關辦法所定義的事項及平次防制高風險領域的公務員遭受境外敵對式吸收利用"},{"start":2117.613,"end":2134.907,"text":"2.落實機密資訊保管及存取控制,針對公共機密、國家機密等隱秘密證的資訊,各機關依照去落實分級保密制度,並強化涉密人員對法令的認知遵循,預防因疏忽濫用而滲透,造成洩密風險。3.落實跨機關"},{"start":2137.574,"end":2144.763,"text":"案件偵辦平台 本部調查局整合情緒線所預先查核高風險對象檢查機關以案件偵辦過程就個案內建構聯繫平台以調查機關 情報機關橫向溝通連結發揮最高偵辦效用是精進檢調偵辦人員的專業智能"},{"start":2156.457,"end":2174.598,"text":"那衛視檢調機關處理迅速妥適本部司法官學院就新進司法官學院辦理國安職權的一個信念以提升偵辦能量專業五推動法治的完備本部前面檢視現行國安法治就擴大委員所提交國安法修長深入研歷"},{"start":2176.434,"end":2194.434,"text":"六 依法嚴辦國安滲透案件 國安案件目前這五年來的定罪達八十一person 本部手指檢到機關面對當前局勢積極 對詳細修正今日調查 釐清事實 勿枉勿重 相當受嚴嚴辦"},{"start":2196.072,"end":2223.588,"text":"公職人員對國家中層伺服公職基本的信念及德性要求對招聖托配合洩漏機密人員嚴重危害國家利益減掉計劃採取堅定而嚴正的偵查作為以受嚇阻之效以上報告敬請主席的各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請司法院理聽長報告"},{"start":2232.756,"end":2238.811,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位縣長 大家早安今天本院奉邀"},{"start":2240.052,"end":2267.59,"text":"列席貴委員會有關於近期連環爆發總統府國安會還有外交部遭共諜滲透及忠誠安全差額不足導致國家機密資料外洩提供檢討報告及相關防治措施的預算執行情形請代表本院列席報告之報告如下進行指教那有關於各法院111年到113年辦理違反國家國安法國家機密保護法"},{"start":2268.71,"end":2293.893,"text":"以及反滲透法等等的案件終結情形以及法院對涉及國家安全的審理跟機敏資料的保管卷中的閱覽所採取的保密措施及限制也在前次的會議奉邀列席時已經報告報告說明在案我們再分析了一下110年到113年官各法院辦理"},{"start":2295.335,"end":2318.495,"text":"資訊保護的部分我們都加了一個分析分析相關統計數據在地院的話是有23件定罪率是64%高院刑事第一審終結案件有18件定罪率是62%刑事第二審終結案件是17件定罪率是64%最高法院的終結率有23件那有罪佔有罪比例的是79%那另外"},{"start":2321.684,"end":2336.63,"text":"我們在針對本院就聖祕人員及所屬機關人員出入大陸地區跟港澳地區做的一些管制跟查的作業包括聖祕人員的部分我們會依照國安機密保護法的部分進行促進管制"},{"start":2338.352,"end":2352.792,"text":"並在他們回來之後那我們要求他進行通報那另外進出我們所屬機關進出大陸地區港澳地區我們在依照相關規定來辦理由於大陸地區我們必須事先經過核准之後才可以進去大陸地區"},{"start":2354.548,"end":2377.321,"text":"另外有關於在職訓練的部分我們從109年開始就進行國家安全研習會的相關的一些研習我們今年又增加了兩梯次的國家安全相關的研習我們來增強把關的專業辦案能力另外有關於治安保護的部分"},{"start":2378.041,"end":2399.781,"text":"我們在採購的契約有限定注點廠商不得有大陸籍人士也不得提供使用大陸廠牌的資通訊產品另外相關機敏資料我們會依照機敏資料在系統中的屬性做不同的轉置措施例如在裁判書的部分我們會有自動遮蔽相關機敏資料人權相關功能"},{"start":2402.723,"end":2418.213,"text":"另外對未來我們對個人電腦的登錄我們採取信任制度必須用手機連結之後才能進入避免資料的外洩另外我們會辦理兩次的資安通訊的一些教育訓練"},{"start":2420.254,"end":2430.362,"text":"同仁的資安防護措施 那我們相關質詢相關資安的預算執行率大概都是99.79%或94.74%這是聯繫112年跟130年部分那以上報告 敬請各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們"},{"start":2441.92,"end":2466.499,"text":"介紹到場的委員 黃國昌委員 林倩琦委員請問各位 各位委員就上次的會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有的話議事錄確定那請問吼調查局連政署跟國安局有沒有需要做口頭報告沒有"},{"start":2468.814,"end":2478.223,"text":"好 那機關代表報告完畢 相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄我們現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘 得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘 並不再延長我們現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":2493.387,"end":2501.433,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請司法院刑事廳廳長、法務部部長、外交部政風處處長以及人事行政總署培訓考用處處長"},{"start":2518.033,"end":2535.068,"text":"各位好,時間的關係不易問候今天召委排了這個有關於府院黨綠色共諜橫行的專案報告其中有幾件事情是今天的報告要特別來加以檢討的"},{"start":2536.584,"end":2565.411,"text":"那當然很遺憾不管是總統府還是國安會兩個涉案最深的單位完全沒有派任何人來列席這個司法法治委員會我相信大家看在眼裡心中都有一定的評價但我不要浪費時間直接往下講先請教一下法務部法務部在今天提出來的書面報告第三頁的最下面說會向上溯源研辦"},{"start":2566.701,"end":2589.955,"text":"目前針對橫跨府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子向上溯源嚴辦辦到什麼地方了向上溯源嚴辦是你在書面報告寫的內容那就不要講空話這個案子現在向上溯源嚴辦辦到什麼地方了這個是屬於通案的一個"},{"start":2591.025,"end":2615.925,"text":"一個態度我想國安的這些違反國安的犯罪這部分對我們這些的國家安全影響很大但是現在都在個案正辦中那我們要求就是說檢察機關在辦理國安案件的話一定要向上搜研向下刨根那這個個案掌握到多少這部分我沒辦法干涉介入跟指導沒有關係啦第一個啦"},{"start":2616.986,"end":2641.993,"text":"部長講的是向上溯源嚴辦這是法務部基本的立場至於個案是不是有向上溯源嚴辦的這件事情部長管不到基本上的立場就是這個樣子那第二個部分是在這個府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子裡面其中一個關鍵人物是黃曲榮就黃曲榮的部分目前的偵辦是以為中國發展組織在偵辦還是單純用洩密在偵辦"},{"start":2647.442,"end":2670.734,"text":"這部分這個個案我沒辦法去回答這個問題OK好那第二個部分就吳尚宇的部分是為中共發展組織在偵辦還是單純洩密在偵辦這部分還是個案我們這個檢察官在偵辦中何仁傑的部分呢一樣嘛你知不知道這個案子台北地檢署總共發了幾次新聞稿"},{"start":2673.393,"end":2694.009,"text":"知不知道這個我不清楚你不清楚嘛從這個案子從一開始到現在只有一次何仁傑抗告駁回的時候有發新聞稿其他的部分從來沒有發新聞稿一句話的解釋都沒有那針對何仁傑的部分所發的新聞稿倒是把罪名都寫出來了只有洩密啦"},{"start":2695.602,"end":2718.581,"text":"沒有為中共發展組織但今天部長在這邊講的話我希望偵辦的檢察官我希望偵辦的檢察官要聽進去如果基本上面部裡面的政策立場是要向上溯源嚴辦就不要搞拒建法什麼叫搞拒建法為中共發展組織不敢辦"},{"start":2720.247,"end":2741.125,"text":"因為涉及的人太多了因為涉及的人太多了那單純拒見了以後辦洩密那是不是有這樣的狀況我們接下來按照整個個案偵辦的進度等到起訴了以後我們進一步來針對具體的內容來加以檢驗但我上次提到"},{"start":2741.986,"end":2765.086,"text":"何仁杰他基本上是一個涉及國家安全或重大利益的公務人員上一次外交部部長林佳龍承認外交部沒有依法辦理特殊查核那個時候林佳龍說他馬上會回去處理這個是在4月21號的事情那現在外交部處理的進度是什麼可不可以給大家說明一下"},{"start":2771.206,"end":2772.803,"text":"林佳龍說那天就要有結果嘛"},{"start":2774.036,"end":2802.623,"text":"跟委員報告就是那個和人節的部分到107年到我們外交部任職的時候他是只有進行一般的安全查核這個上次講過了那目前的話如果說部裡面現在的同仁的話我們還是要按照行政院跟考試院定的特殊查核辦法他裡面有規範就是現在有哪些人必須要查核和人節要不要做特殊安全查核"},{"start":2804.243,"end":2831.26,"text":"呃 如果如果不要說如果我4月20幾號就問過的問題了林佳龍也說要回去處理本來說那個禮拜要給大家答案我等了半天等不到外交部的說明那我就很懷疑林佳龍那時候在備詢的時候是欽差公共欸所以我今天才特別提出來嘛不要浪費時間針對問題回答啦現在如果依照現在的規定的話目前目前如果是用呃 聘用人員"},{"start":2832.521,"end":2852.097,"text":"擔任所謂的秘書的話目前的話還是沒有辦法進行特殊查核你的意思是說何仁杰依照辦法本來就不用辦特殊安全查核嗎他一開始的時候進入國安會的時候為什麼要做特殊安全查核為什麼轉到外交部的時候不用做特殊安全查核因為喔"},{"start":2852.978,"end":2878.523,"text":"今天你在這邊的說明跟那天林佳龍的說明完全是矛盾的那天林佳龍承認說他應該要辦特殊安全查核但今天外交部似乎改口說他是聘用所以不用辦特殊安全查核能夠接觸到這麼機敏的部長室裡面機密傳真的人竟然不用辦特殊安全查核這不是一件很離譜的事情嗎"},{"start":2879.933,"end":2908.053,"text":"再跟委員報告一下就是依照當時和人節107年進到外交部的時候外交部當時候是用所謂的聘用人員來禁用他那當時候列在特殊查核的一覽表的名單就沒有把它列進去所以當時候是不用那如果是現在的話因為行政院已經有公開宣示了以後處理比較機敏的業務的話我問比較核心關鍵的問題啦"},{"start":2909.714,"end":2935.261,"text":"哪些人應該辦特殊安全查核是由誰決定的是不是行政機關決定的行政機關現在完全公務人員任用法授權給行政機關去做決定嘛那行政機關怎麼會做一個這麼荒謬的決定明明可以接觸機敏資訊的因為他是部長帶來的人他是機要然後就可以不用辦特殊安全查核這不是國家安全的重大漏洞嗎"},{"start":2936.6,"end":2948.985,"text":"這個部分以後我們會來補強對啊 等到出了事了以後現在才說以後要補強你現在的說明是什麼責任就不用追究了嘛當初沒有辦特殊安全查核剛剛好而已嘛"},{"start":2950.646,"end":2978.1,"text":"今天外交部的說明的立場不就是這個樣子嗎但大家看不下去啊立法者授權給你們行政機關決定哪些人要做特殊安全查核結果因為是部長帶去的寵臣所以就可以不用做要不要做也是你們決定的啊該做沒有做該規範沒有規範出現了國家安全的重大漏洞這件事情不需要有人負責嗎這件事情不需要有人負責嗎"},{"start":2980.274,"end":3001.805,"text":"誰要負責任?支吾昭縣要負責任嗎?人躲起來啦連來都不敢來啊誰要負責任?立法者都充分授權給你們啦授權給你們的結果是什麼?善慢善慢該做沒有做事情就這麼簡單來人種外交部啊"},{"start":3010.342,"end":3031.238,"text":"今天翻共啊林佳龍當初是說應該做沒有做啊結果到今天真相大白啊按照外交部自己提報的人連做都不用做好來第二個吳尚宇從副總統時期就任用了到總統時期還是任用他要不要做特殊安全查核"},{"start":3032.926,"end":3054.86,"text":"據瞭解那個吳尚宇也是聘用人員那跟委員報告所以吳尚宇是聘用人員也不用做特殊安全查核是這樣嗎因為特查辦法如果是特查辦法的話是任用法的授權命令那不是依照任用法禁用的人員目前不在於那個辦法的涵蓋範圍之內所以呢這個法規上面的問題授權給你們法規上面的問題什麼時候發生的因為這很離譜嘛"},{"start":3059.503,"end":3085.794,"text":"一般現在 我最近接到一堆投訴啊公務人員說 辦他們的查核的時候辦得把他們當賊一樣 辦得非常緊結果 跟民進黨這些大官出入重要地方的 真正是機要真正可以接觸機敏資訊的通通都沒有辦所以今天才會搞出這個洞出來啊才會搞出這個洞出來啊"},{"start":3086.806,"end":3096.973,"text":"我剛講得很清楚啦都是授權給你們行政機關做結果現在沒有做該辦沒有辦出了事沒有人要負責我們的政府不是要強化有關於國安案件的處理嗎怎麼會處理成這個樣子處理得哩哩喇喇讓人民看不下去再下一個來 請部長"},{"start":3118.612,"end":3139.914,"text":"我上次啊問了調查局局長一個關鍵的問題啊你剛說啊 偵辦當中的資訊啊檢察官不會洩漏啊 你們都不會知道那很奇怪啊為什麼吳尚宇的事情總統府會知道在拘提吳尚宇前一天總統府就把他解職了誰洩密"},{"start":3143.411,"end":3169.767,"text":"這個你們有依法會通報總統府嗎?上次電話局局長否認嘛說沒有通報總統府這個真漫無喪語的事情我是看報紙我才知道的你完全毫無所惜我毫無所惜北檢有沒有通報總統府這個不可能通報不可能通報所以我們現在總統府是通靈喔在發動G提前一天就知道要把無無喪語解除職務沒有人通報的話總統府怎麼知道"},{"start":3171.155,"end":3200.087,"text":"通靈嗎所以問題就來了嘛壓了兩個人以後要辦吳尚宇之前前一天總統府把他解除職務我非常納悶啊總統府怎麼知道吳尚宇要出事了結果在前一天把他解除職務身為偵辦過犯罪檢察官的法務部部長你不會覺得很奇怪嗎還是不用去查"},{"start":3201.503,"end":3226.659,"text":"這種事情不用查 不要查總統府怎麼會知道總統府不可能知道啊對嘛 所以我就問你嘛如果不知道的話怎麼會在發動GT前一天把他解除職務很巧 心有靈犀還是通靈作為一個曾經偵辦犯罪過的檢察官你不會覺得很奇怪嗎我是覺得超級奇怪"},{"start":3228.459,"end":3248.97,"text":"如果偵查當中的訊息沒有人通報怎麼會在前一天把他解除職務我們從法律面上面來講這種事情依法要通報總統府嗎要嗎這個沒有通報啊是不是有通報事實層面的問題現在我問的是法規範層面的問題依法要通報總統府嗎"},{"start":3253.502,"end":3275.485,"text":"偵查中的個案本來就是 就是由檢察官來依法偵辦嘛對 所以依法要通報總統府嗎這個沒有通報的規定依照法律的規定 沒有通報的規定 不能通報嘛不能通報嘛 對吧但是但是什麼 現在又有但是了"},{"start":3277.113,"end":3298.706,"text":"到底有通報沒有通報所以到底有沒有通報這個沒有通報啊對啊所以我現在問題就來了嘛我們繞來繞去嘛現在出現了一個大謎團嘛法務部部長堅稱沒有通報我相信你沒通報因為你說你不知道嘛北檢有沒有通報北檢不可能會通報啊"},{"start":3299.622,"end":3321.787,"text":"你有去查嗎這個怎麼可能會通報呢你的意思是說你都不用去問啦北檢絕對不會通報現在問題還是沒解決嘛所以總統府是通靈還是心有離析他怎麼會知道要發動搜索前一天就把他給放了就把他給解除職務你不知道嘛你不知道答案是什麼嘛"},{"start":3324.195,"end":3350.267,"text":"但是這個是不是一個值得追究的問題我認為這是一個值得追究的問題所以我今天公開告發請北檢分案調查總統府怎麼知道的請北檢分案調查總統府怎麼知道的剛好前一天把他解除職務如果有人通報的話有沒有洩密罪的問題"},{"start":3352.469,"end":3381.619,"text":"沒關係你繼續堅稱沒有人通報啦現在我問的全部都是法規範層面的問題喔如果有人通報有沒有洩密罪的問題有吧有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪這有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪就是不敢回答喔我那時候不敢回答這就依法認定嘛對啊所以有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪有還是沒有這個就依法認定對嘛所以我就說你不敢回答嘛來下一個司法院"},{"start":3383.823,"end":3396.833,"text":"我們目前司法院設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業目前我們都有對國安軍事專庭的人員有進行專業的訓練所以按照司法院的觀點現在設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業"},{"start":3398.575,"end":3420.305,"text":"我們認為我們在法官事務分配規則這部分有做專業跟久任的一些相關的規劃這個我了解你們都有做規劃白紙黑字大家都看到了現在我在問司法院的事情是按照你們自己設置了這個國安軍事專庭了以後到今天為止你們認為具體實施起來國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業"},{"start":3421.636,"end":3441.825,"text":"我們認為法官的專業程度應該是夠的應該是夠的嘛所以目前的國安軍事專庭足以處理有關於國家軍事安全的案件這個是司法院現在的立場嗎是 沒錯好 第二個司法院認為目前針對國安軍事專庭法官的判刑有沒有判刑過輕的問題"},{"start":3443.63,"end":3468.057,"text":"這個部分我們在歷次的說明沒有判刑過輕的問題因為涉及到法定刑但是法律修正的問題所以目前判起來都相關我們把問題理清啦司法院認為依照現行法的規定沒有判刑過輕的問題那至於說要不要判得更重這是立法者的決定我這樣說是不是司法院的立場"},{"start":3469.346,"end":3476.925,"text":"我們認為我們是依在在法定行列上適當的量刑是所以嘛在現行法下面你認為沒有判刑過輕的問題嗎"},{"start":3480.384,"end":3499.683,"text":"所以要不要提高刑度是立法者的問題嗎最後一個問題來請教部長部長我上次有請教過你就是說泄密給中國跟泄密給外國法定型應該要區別對待也就是泄密給中國要提高刑度這件事情我上次請教你"},{"start":3500.731,"end":3529.103,"text":"你沒有表達意見有受廣納意見嗎是那我上一次在內政委員會問次長的時候次長說他個人的意見是贊成那目前從上次到現在法務部廣納各界社會意見了以後現在的決定是什麼贊不贊成洩密給中國的要提高法定刑剛剛你也聽到司法院怎麼講嘛他們認為喔司法院自己認為我沒有說司法院講的是對的啦社會上有很多批評嘛"},{"start":3530.223,"end":3541.889,"text":"司法院認為說在現在的法定刑下法官量刑沒有問題那接下來是立法院要不要提高刑度的問題現在針對洩密給中國要提高刑罰這件事情法務部有立場了嗎"},{"start":3543.565,"end":3562.665,"text":"這邊我認為還是廣大意見因為本來就是國家機密保護法第32條33條本來就是有加重的一個規定了嘛它是當然是委員有提到所以你現在你認為現在的規定是夠了是不是那是外國那個那夠不夠的話我們再跟社會看社會的一個意見好沒關係你們還要廣大社會的意見還要廣大多久"},{"start":3563.744,"end":3578.878,"text":"這個上次委員是講的是四月是四月份四月二十幾號的沒關係啊我現在就說你們要廣大多久因為啦對於你來講啊這可能是一個新的問題但對於民進黨政府來講這絕對不是新的問題"},{"start":3581.411,"end":3603.085,"text":"我2018年的時候就把這個問題搬到檯面上但是很奇怪民進黨政府從頭到尾反對從行政部門到立法部門從頭到尾反對到目前為止各個委員所提出來的國家安全法的修正草案你們在法務部的報告裡面說會強加的去研議"},{"start":3604.507,"end":3615.385,"text":"會研議了以後表示法務部的意見嗎書面報告是這樣寫的沒有錯吧好那你們看完了民進黨所有的委員所提的提案的時候有沒有認為"},{"start":3617.192,"end":3645.569,"text":"洩密給中國相較於洩密給外國應該要加重處罰的規定有還是沒有這個本來就是有加重處罰的規定啊我說國家安全法請你看國家安全法好不好你在書面報告裡面講的就是國家安全法嘛現在在內政委員會審議的也是國家安全法嘛針對國家安全法現在民進黨委員所提出來的提案有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的修正條文有還是沒有"},{"start":3646.773,"end":3673.487,"text":"還是不是很清楚那些條文還沒有細看這個是第二條第七條的是我知道啊沒有區分啊現在國家安全法第二條第三款第二款第三款都沒有區分啊泄密倒是沒有嘛不過國家安全法本來就是就這樣的一個泄密行為就有一個處罰所以請你針對問題回答嘛你們說你們要按照國家安全法各個委員所提出來的版本好好回去研議我相信你的話啊"},{"start":3674.167,"end":3700.914,"text":"所以我相信你研議過啦我相信提了什麼條文你很熟啊要不然法務部今天提出來的報告是欽差公共的喔針對民進黨委員所提出來的修正條文有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的規定有還是沒有目前是沒有啊目前沒有嘛那這樣問題就清楚了嘛勇敢講嘛怕什麼我具體跟部長講啊我提案的內容洩密給中國加重處罰"},{"start":3702.939,"end":3719.634,"text":"這個是社會的期待這是人民的憤怒啊這是你們提的這一拖拉鼓報告所在講問題的核心啊碰都不敢碰好 謝謝黃委員那我們請林倩祺委員先代理主席"},{"start":3739.178,"end":3758.622,"text":"我們麻煩部長還有第二具局長局長部長兩位早安我想我今天問的東西我已經公開的講好幾天了所以這絕對不會是突襲兩位"},{"start":3761.229,"end":3781.068,"text":"我想日前在調查局還有宜蘭地檢署在搜索宜蘭縣黨部的時候他發生一個狀況就是他把非本案應該扣押的東西帶回了我想部長知道這件事嗎?局長知道這件事嗎?"},{"start":3782.318,"end":3798.821,"text":"我都知道嘛對不對好那我來跟各位報告第一個宜蘭地檢署在我當天晚上啊跟兩位報告我當天晚上電話接接不完啦因為他們要去要回這些資料因為隔天已經是最後一天了必須要趕快去領表了但是"},{"start":3800.682,"end":3817.628,"text":"當時中選會一開始是跟領銜人他們說如果沒有公文債而且領銜人的身份證還有他的委託書當時也都在限調站沒有就不能夠領所以當時他們熱鍋上螞蟻一直在不知道該怎麼處理這件事情"},{"start":3819.437,"end":3848.015,"text":"我請他們依照正常的程序趕快跟地檢署說結果地檢署第一份新聞稿發說沒有扣這個東西好然後第二份新聞稿就是我們在一直跟他講他說沒有結果後來我們還拜託記者去跟他說然後這時候才說有然後有了以後呢他發明了一個我從來沒有看過的東西啦我先想請教部長啊部長請問一下我國齁那個扣押物品的扣押有哪幾種部長知道嗎"},{"start":3850.876,"end":3869.646,"text":"沒關係 部長 請看這個PowerPoint就除了一般我們對於搜索票上面已經載明應該扣押哪些東西之外我們還有附帶扣押 另案扣押 還有非附屬於搜索的扣押我想請教部長 回到上一頁我想請教部長 宜蘭地檢署新聞稿說"},{"start":3872.508,"end":3899.167,"text":"發現 經過向調查官反映的時候發現與本案相關查扣資料並同帶回調查站請問部長 並同帶回是屬於哪一種扣押這就是扣押嗎 可謂證據獲得沒收拾單了是就可以扣押不是 他屬於哪一種扣押 並同帶回是扣押嗎這個帶回是扣押 這個還沒有扣押嗎這個搜索到的東西不一定 這個還沒有啊有在搜索扣押的清冊裡面嘛"},{"start":3900.371,"end":3921.937,"text":"這個要請調查局他們來回答請調查局回答包委員你指的這件文件當時是有在搜索扣押的清冊裡面而且這個扣押的現場是有檢察官帶隊的這不是重點憑什麼去查扣跟本案無關的東西甚至他公文上面一望即知這跟一階連署有什麼關"},{"start":3923.417,"end":3949.43,"text":"請問一下局長我們可以去查扣非收索票上面所載跟本案無關顯然是另案而且跟犯罪無關的東西我們可以把它扣回去嗎請問一下什麼叫做併同待回這是屬於刑訴訟法的哪一個條文我想委員可能對這件公文的內涵不是很清楚因為偵查不公開的問題所以我只能很很籠統的告訴你這件公文出現在那個現場就是一個問號"},{"start":3951.191,"end":3974.601,"text":"對 所以當時檢察官跟調查官要扣押 局長這份公文出現在現場問號是什麼 你跟我講清楚法律有沒有規定不可以有這個東西出現在現場這件公文就不是搜索 當時這個搜索現場的授文人 授文者就不是這個搜索現場的所以檢察官覺得這個應該要釐清 他把它扣押回來這太離譜了吧 局長"},{"start":3977.122,"end":4000.754,"text":"有什麼規定說這一份公文一份公文合法的公文我不能夠放在哪一個地點我國法律有這樣規定嗎所以檢察官他需要釐清所以檢察官他需要釐清啊局長你講這個太外行了喔你不要把我當外行人看我一直在這邊跟各位報告如果我今天外行人你來跟我講這個就算了我聽不懂"},{"start":4001.687,"end":4028.827,"text":"那我今天在 好 那如果照你這樣講那限調站裡面有非常多也不是限調站的東西 你們為什麼不全部查扣回家然後第二個我想請問一下什麼叫做併同待回需不需要立法院幫各位修法把併同待回四個字修進刑事訴訟法裡面沒有 我想他那個併同待回其實他這件事有在扣押清澈裡面的啦整個程序是合法的 我跟委員報告這一點你放心所以今天"},{"start":4030.41,"end":4047.916,"text":"今天不能扣押的東西我愛扣就扣只要在扣押物品清單裡面就可以嗎局長你的意思是這樣對不對這個檢察官他在現場認定啊檢察官他在現場你現在推給檢察官就對了不是啊這個好那檢察官他有帶隊的法務部長請問一下檢察官帶隊就可以隨便愛扣就扣嗎部長"},{"start":4049.136,"end":4071.789,"text":"我不是不懂,麻煩部長說實話,麻煩局長說實話現場的話,那個搜索的,如果檢察當場認為有關聯性的當然我們就可以扣押,就可以先帶回釐清嘛但是這個後來沒有查過,這個新聞稿也發放給律師來簽收了嘛所以這個並沒有查扣嘛"},{"start":4072.429,"end":4091.319,"text":"而且這個是在那個搜索的現場這個是好像那個裡面的你真的確定部長已經多少次我們在這裡的質詢後來回去法官檢察官看到覺得很可笑你今天刑事訴訟法我剛已經給部長我剛已經給你看了我國刑事訴訟法的查扣的方式有哪幾種嘛那後來這個認為是這個就經過一個解釋我們認為說這個檢察認為說沒有查過的必要那就發凡了嘛"},{"start":4100.322,"end":4123.033,"text":"第一個我先跟各位說明我認為把這個東西扣走這個就屬於一個不合法的扣押這第一個第二個即使你今天是一個合法的扣押那為什麼宜蘭地檢署第一份新聞稿說沒有這個事情請問這是怎麼回事為什麼第一份新聞稿跟第二份新聞稿的內容不一樣"},{"start":4124.641,"end":4149.008,"text":"這個釐清了嘛 這個釐清了所以才發一個新聞 說調查官將該子公文交律師來領回我不知道我國現在的制度可以荒謬的解釋成這樣 我愛怎麼解釋就怎麼解釋了這個沒有什麼說愛怎麼解釋 部長我尊重你是前輩 但是法律我們念的是同一套如果照這樣子的話 那以後搜索我現場我愛扣什麼就扣什麼 我就說我要回家看"},{"start":4150.618,"end":4175.27,"text":"是可以這樣嗎然後我再跟各位報告我國刑事訴訟法沒有併同待回這四個字你跟我講併同待回是屬於扣押的哪一種請你告訴我這個是放在整個一個文件裡面的嘛是放在整個文件裡面的不能這樣講啊 放在文件裡面這個怎麼會是這樣講呢 部長我聽不懂欸"},{"start":4176.963,"end":4201.937,"text":"扣押的意思就是跟本案有關的犯罪物證我們才能扣押嘛所以我即使去一個地點搜索如果我今天去總統府搜索我要搜第幾局的東西然後我可以把總統辦公室的東西一起扣走嗎這我絕對反對到底的嘛那一樣的邏輯是這樣啊或者是我去總統府哪一個單位搜索我可以把他上面總統寫給他的東西我一起扣走嗎"},{"start":4203.278,"end":4215.035,"text":"對不對 哪一個同仁採購涉嫌違法我就把總統給他的另外一個公文一起帶走嗎可為證據獲得沒收之物當然就是可以扣押嘛那這個檢討在當場認為這個有關聯性的東西"},{"start":4218.827,"end":4237.313,"text":"這個是可以當觀念性的一個證物那後來整個一個調查後釐清了沒有扣押的證文認為可以釐清 那我們就報告部長 如果你要這樣子解釋刑事訴訟法那我們國內刑事訴訟法在強制處分那一章可能要完全大修了就檢察官可以要怎麼樣 愛扣什麼就扣什麼"},{"start":4237.813,"end":4257.526,"text":"尤其是那一份公文上面清清楚楚寫的是什麼我跟你講啦你今天當事人要求發還你第一份新聞稿跟第二份新聞稿講的內容就不一樣不要當大家傻子看不懂上面寫什麼我第一份新聞稿看到檢方這樣發我還想說不可能檢方不會騙人啊我還跟他們說他們是不是弄錯了"},{"start":4258.974,"end":4280.255,"text":"結果他們還拜託記者去跟檢察官講之後才會有第二份公文出來我沒有辦法理解什麼叫做併同待回啦所以我現在能想到是不是我們還要幫兩個單位去修法否則我不知道怎麼去解釋併同待回這件事最後還好意思寫說嚴守法定程序這我更覺得要是我今天出了這個包我就出來道個歉"},{"start":4281.316,"end":4297.051,"text":"那另外我也想跟部長講一下跟局長講一下如果說今天你查扣了已經放進扣押物品清單了然後你今天把證物袋打開你有沒有進行正常的啟封程序有沒有"},{"start":4298.103,"end":4320.853,"text":"如果沒有的話就便衣措施打開就發環嗎所以這個都請各位去了解你今天在辦的一個案子如果已經高度爭議了那是不是程序上面要更嚴謹我在這邊也跟各位報告一件事我們每個人都會出包我們自己當檢察官的時候有時候程序不小心也會錯但是錯的時候你就出來道個歉說這邊不小心扣到我趕快發環"},{"start":4322.622,"end":4337.953,"text":"我覺得這樣子大家國人都可以接受每個人都一定會有不小心弄錯的時候但是如果不小心弄錯了又硬拗自己沒有錯硬拗這個屬於法定程序我跟你講如果我今天在當檢察官我去你家搜索愛扣什麼就扣什麼我去搜兒子的東西我把他爸媽的"},{"start":4338.593,"end":4365.996,"text":"存摺全部一起扣回家慢慢看把爸媽手機一起扣回家你看有沒有這個狀況另外我再跟部長和局長報告另外一件事情但這個東西有很多人在抱怨說當天去現場的時候有一些人他們的手機他根本跟本案無關他只是義工而已手機就被到場的調查官要求拿出來給調查官看然後在那邊看了一個小時之後把它還給當事人那我想請問一下這個的法律依據是什麼"},{"start":4367.335,"end":4391.972,"text":"他不是收索扣押物喔那今天如果現場有個工友在那邊打掃是不是也叫工友把手機拿來我看一下裡面寫了什麼然後看完之後我看得很高興看完之後還給他我請問一下這個法律依據在哪裡好吧 兩位答不出來我跟委員報告齁 這個訴訟法112"},{"start":4399.947,"end":4415.459,"text":"122條齁因為這個法官有核定的一個搜索票的內容來執行搜索那122條齁對第三人齁第三人身體物件電子記錄其他處所有相應的可信為被告犯罪嫌因扣押字物存在違憲的搜索資所以這個那你問這些人"},{"start":4418.081,"end":4438.876,"text":"這個是現場嗎你現場好那今天這樣講就我剛剛講的那個例子我今天如果總統府某一個人涉貪譬如說總統府有共諜案我去那裡辦共諜案我請總統手機交出來給我看因為我懷疑你是犯罪嫌疑人內斷外換罪我一樣可以辦你我可以這樣嗎那這樣子的話我國事法不就無限制了這個還有133那個那個"},{"start":4442.97,"end":4460.498,"text":"那個一山一條進行搜索的情況也可以可以直接進行搜索嗎?凡是可為證據或得莫受擔惡的依法扣押之罵這整次進行搜索後來是三日內懲罰法院的問題而已今天出來抱怨那些都是現場的義工他可能就在那邊打掃然後"},{"start":4461.633,"end":4484.738,"text":"調查局的人到現場就叫他們把手機交出來而且非常多人交出來之後手機就在那邊讓他們看了一個小時看完之後也沒有進行任何的程序沒有扣押沒有把這些人簽為被告手機就還他那今天人家不滿的是這個如果兩位長官你們覺得這樣行為是對的那請 沒關係今天全程錄影公開然後我再講另外一個雖然最高檢說"},{"start":4493.413,"end":4508.072,"text":"最高檢說 今天我點出來那些東西他說傷害司法違行但我跟各位兩位報告你們在這樣操作下去才是傷害司法違行我今天我講的每一個東西都是告訴國人你在行政訴訟法上面你有什麼權益你在接受"},{"start":4509.947,"end":4536.658,"text":"執行機關 司法機關調查搜索的時候你可以主張什麼這個是我國刑事訴訟法我們保障每個人民的基本權利耶民進黨不是最愛講基本人權嗎我國憲法的基本人權明明白白規範在那裡耶我有非常多的自由我有免於恐懼的自由就我今天在面對調查官的時候我跟本案完全無關我是義工我到現場掃地的我到現場整理花圃的"},{"start":4537.694,"end":4564.602,"text":"然後在那邊叫我把手機交出來給他看然後他也沒有把我簽為被告我也不是犯罪嫌疑人東西也沒有把我扣走你要是把我查扣回去看我還無話可說現場看一看一個小時後發環這非常多地方的人都遇到這種事情如果兩位認為這樣是對的好沒關係 那就這樣我在這邊只是跟各位報告我在當司法人員的一天我總是要求每一個人要嚴守程序正義"},{"start":4565.862,"end":4593.189,"text":"因為陳居正是死的改天回過頭來當事人來檢舉我的時候我無話可說啊因為那不涉及主觀判斷嘛如果對於宜蘭的這個做法這樣齁我真的覺得我不知道兩位回去你們面對你們所帶領的那些同仁不知道是怎麼樣我從來不覺得說你可以現場隨便你要查過什麼就查過什麼我要人家交出手機就交出手機"},{"start":4595.417,"end":4597.972,"text":"士林北投吳思瑤罷免的那個領銜的賴怡任"},{"start":4599.79,"end":4625.98,"text":"他的女朋友的手機放在家裡然後他調查官還叫賴以任去問他女朋友的手機號碼密碼幾號 叫他問到要打開來看其實這個東西在法律上面都有問題除非你認為他女朋友跟他是共同證犯也是犯罪嫌疑人之一 那我沒有話說但你今天你不能這樣做啊我今天在這邊希望替國人要求的就是一個程序正義國人在接受公權力的執行的時候"},{"start":4626.94,"end":4647.152,"text":"他有法律上合法的權利我絕對支持國家偵辦犯罪就像這次偽造文書不管別人怎麼講不管人家說我什麼我就說偽造文書犯罪就是犯罪該辦就是該辦但是要注意一下你的比例原則對不對你的平等性原則對不對你辦男辦女邏輯完全不一樣我就沒有辦法理解好"},{"start":4648.183,"end":4650.904,"text":"局長我請問一下最近這幾個案子包括北檢的案子請問一下檢察官在指揮偵辦這個案子的時候請問一下涉犯的法條是什麼"},{"start":4669.277,"end":4693.123,"text":"最近這個罷免聯署的案件目前初步看起來就是偽造文書嘛然後個人資料保護法就偽造文書跟個人資料保護法嘛對不對因為具體的偵查的細節要檢查官才知道但是目前非常的清楚就是偽造文書以及個人資料保護法那我想請問一下調查局偽造文書"},{"start":4694.443,"end":4711.561,"text":"跟各支你們是屬於你們組織法裡面第二條裡面的哪一個範圍哪一個執掌範圍你們組織法第二條有好幾種執掌範圍是請問是哪一種如果是在這個有跟選舉罷免有關的部分是屬於我們廉政工作的範圍"},{"start":4713.598,"end":4737.453,"text":"廉政工作範圍嗎?跟選舉罷免有關的就是廉政工作範圍過往都是在經濟嘛對 如果他單純是偽造文書的話是屬於經濟犯罪防治處的業務好 那如果是在選舉罷免的這個階段的話我現在有一個問題嘛我現在有一個問題嘛檢察官各地發的新聞稿到目前為止他涉犯的法條就兩個偽造文書以及違反各自法這兩個東西好 那我剛剛請教一下"},{"start":4743.482,"end":4753.908,"text":"那你們這個偽造文書以前那個績效合分怎麼算這個就要看我們業務處他的規定好沒關係你這邊講不出來那沒有關係喔好那"},{"start":4757.874,"end":4784.134,"text":"我再請教你一個問題就是說你們最近真的弄到我已經覺得不知道該怎麼去面對你們請問一下局長你擔任基層調查官多久三十年那立案的標準是只要有情資就可以立案還是要有一定的證據當然要有一定程度的證據那立案是誰立案"},{"start":4785.675,"end":4811.452,"text":"各站的立案者是誰 各外勤立案 副主任嘛 對不對也不一定喔 有些是授權案件 有些是非授權案件 看案件的類型那立案的情況也很多 有時候是檢察官交查的對 不一定是我們主動發掘那根據你的經驗 績效制度是不是有存在的必要 這才能激勵基層辦案當然 大家都要有一定的一個標準嘛 對啊"},{"start":4812.227,"end":4836.238,"text":"好所以我在這邊跟各位報告就是說所謂的績效等等不管在民間企業或政府企業它其實關係到每個人的升遷還有考績我想這個大概沒有問題嘛一部分對好這當然是一部分啦我們還會考核他的那個那個青年度啦個性啦私生活等等這個我可以理解啦那所以說我今天我要請教你一個問題既然"},{"start":4841.735,"end":4858.215,"text":"好那我想請教你一個問題這一次齁這一次你所謂的幽靈聯署這個齁賈官他認為涉犯的法療是偽造文書跟違反個人資料保護法但是你們這個有關績效的評比你們是放在哪一個項目之下我剛有跟委員報告就是屬於廉政業務"},{"start":4860.226,"end":4882.973,"text":"因為這個是你們的新聞稿那我這邊就跟各位請教一個問題而且我要告訴國人一個問題就是今天檢察官說得非常清楚今天這些行為涉犯的叫做偽造文書以及違反個人資料保護法結果調查局用什麼來合分給績效大家知道嗎他們用選舉查查"},{"start":4884.975,"end":4906.778,"text":"為什麼過往調查官在選舉查期間都像發了瘋一樣不管藍綠的選舉都像發了瘋一樣一直下去殺一直下去砍在選舉查查的期間因為選舉查查的和分續獎都比較高而且時間短他不像一般案件他要辦非常久才能夠拿得到他的組織才拿得到和分他個人才拿得到續獎"},{"start":4908.429,"end":4931.486,"text":"所以說選舉查查其間 很多人就等四年一次的地方選舉因為立委跟總統的選舉不好查所以他們很多調查官一直以來都在等這四年一次的地方選舉然後在這邊去拿到積分 拿到續獎因為這個東西跟他升遷有非常大的關聯性但是這一次不是 這一次我個人看到的結果是什麼"},{"start":4934.005,"end":4945.363,"text":"各位長官 各位司法的長官為了要讓這些調查官瘋狂的去查辦所有連連署的案件你把他認為這叫選舉查查案件然後我也跟兩位報告"},{"start":4948.037,"end":4965.376,"text":"請兩位知道一件事情我在這個體系做了20年我非常多好朋友非常多調查官我都認識他們會跟我們講很多事情他非常多事情不敢跟長官報告長官要求他什麼他也不得不做甚至檢察官有檢查一體制檢查一體制上級交辦什麼檢察官就必須要辦"},{"start":4966.457,"end":4988.729,"text":"還有檢察局這個存在調查站有上下隸屬的問題所以基層都不得不聽大家的指揮去辦但是他們心中有非常多的怨恨所以這段時間有不同的調查站一直跟我講同樣的問題就是今天這個案子連中選會都出來說新法有關偽造文書的部分跟這一次的連署適用舊法無關"},{"start":4990.239,"end":5010.677,"text":"無關所以這一次檢察官所承辦的案子沒有關係到選舉罷免法但是調查局要希望調查官下去瘋狂的辦這個案子他把他的續講改為選舉塔塔的續講這就是今天問題的所在我必須要告訴國人就是這樣"},{"start":5013.015,"end":5024.832,"text":"我知道在你們一定會講一個東西啦你說郭台銘那個案子的時候也有怎麼樣啦問題郭台銘那個連鎖的時候他是涉及到用錢去買他是有行賄的問題兩個完全不一樣我可以就你的問題說明嗎"},{"start":5027.878,"end":5045.699,"text":"好第一點我們針對這一次的連署罷免沒有任何的專案然後績效的部分就是回歸到選舉查查因為我想你也理解嘛這個在選舉罷免的階段的一些犯罪的行為當然就是選舉查查但是沒有特別加成也沒有特別的優待這是第一點"},{"start":5047.321,"end":5068.552,"text":"你會不會講這些在誤導國人我到現在此刻為止我到現在此刻為止我沒有跟你談加成喔我只是跟你講說你把一般刑案檢察官的一般刑案灌去選舉罷免法案件我跟你說明我們調查局內部的內控的做法嘛那我舉個例子來講司法詐欺他是詐欺還是司法"},{"start":5068.752,"end":5084.595,"text":"司法詐欺我們是在廉政案件然後再來一個這個選舉查查的績效不是你講的說很容易拿到然後分數又特別高 反而是剛好相反我們選舉查查的案件是必須要檢察官有起訴我們才會給績效所以不會說大家瘋狂的去做然後為了升遷 你講這個"},{"start":5094.369,"end":5114.6,"text":"就像我講的你們總是講一些讓基層的人聽到之後會當笑話聽的不會不會選舉查的績效很難拿沒錯但是他的誘因就是很大因為他的續獎以他的合分就是誘因很大不然你看每次選舉查的期間為什麼我們沒有特別的續獎的規定在這個選舉查查沒有我今天把問題點出來啦"},{"start":5116.101,"end":5134.67,"text":"就很簡單的第一個你去所有我覺得國人都可以去問你所認識的調查官選舉查的分數及選舉查的續講是不是大家時間到就想講很多尤其是比較鄉下的調查站更希望利用四年一次的地方選舉機會好好的去辦選舉罷免案件"},{"start":5136.491,"end":5156.025,"text":"好 這是第一個第二個 本次各地監署所發的信用稿它所相關的條文只有刑法以及個人資料保護法但是調查局 貴局竟然可以把它認定它的續講和分是用選罷法案件沒關係 調查局局長你是主觀你有你的決定權但是我在這邊就告訴各位國人"},{"start":5162.651,"end":5185.053,"text":"司法是對付犯罪者 司法不是對付善良百姓我請各位要知道這個點然後另外請不要用這種方式去利誘調查官去辦這種案子這些調查官 基層調查官 基層檢察官都很辛苦他們也希望說能夠得到升遷 能夠得到續獎 大家都是這樣"},{"start":5186.291,"end":5201.644,"text":"我覺得當長官的 你要有那個肩膀扛下來 任何的壓力你今天做了一個以前沒有的事情以前沒有過的 已經違反法律的平等原則委員你放心啦 我們一定開大門走的我想時間的關係 時間的關係我們是不是 吳委員的質詢就到此 謝謝好 謝謝 下一位我們請王逸川委員發言"},{"start":5230.209,"end":5244.078,"text":"好 謝謝主席我先請國安局的副局長麻煩國安局副局長非常好"},{"start":5245.896,"end":5260.555,"text":"請問一下現在在國安局上班的人有沒有人不用經過特殊查核基本上我們任用的人員都是要經過特殊的查核全部嗎?是只要走進國安局上班的人?對"},{"start":5262.386,"end":5281.825,"text":"走進國安局上班那個門裡面的人每個人都要經過查核是沒有任何一個例外對當然公有是沒有做一個查核但是正式的人員包括我們的志願役的人員都一定要做過查核好謝謝那請回好我們現在請這個調查局去講"},{"start":5288.345,"end":5296.985,"text":"委員好局長我們這個特殊查核的相關辦法裡頭有對象的一覽表是那這一覽表是調查局提的嗎"},{"start":5298.111,"end":5319.189,"text":"不是 是他的主管 這個特查辦法是人事行政總署主管的然後就是由各機關提出來 他們可能揭秘等等的跟國安有關的 重大利益有關的 由機關提出來他定出一個副表出來以後各個機關提 然後就成為那個副表"},{"start":5320.31,"end":5334.867,"text":"那如果機關沒有提了就不會進到裡頭嘛對不對對 因為我們不知道機關哪些人是有揭秘的條件OK 那你今天的報告裡頭提到說啊這個原來的人數只有1328位嘛"},{"start":5338.231,"end":5354.736,"text":"那可是就不包括重大政策規劃執行政務人員協助機關處理的秘書機要人員 約聘顧人員立法院的職員跟立法院的助理就是說不包括這些所以你們現在有在研議要把這一些納進來"},{"start":5356.536,"end":5380.793,"text":"那卓院長只是先納入就是說跟政務有關的這些人然後在相關約聘僱的這個辦法裡頭就已經呈現他自願辦理嘛 對不對那如果不願意簽了就不要來當這個職務對 可能就不要用那這個會擴及到多少人目前的人數出估是多少"},{"start":5383.737,"end":5401.176,"text":"您的報告是寫1108對吧跟委員報告目前大概有行政院長有開過會現在大概就是階段性第一階段就是行政院所屬機關本來政務人員都排除嘛但現在他現在要求把政務人員全部通通都要納入然後再來就是主任秘書以上的"},{"start":5401.676,"end":5427.533,"text":"也全部都要包含他的機要他的秘書等等的都要但是有些因為他不是公務員因為他母法是公務人員任用法那有些他不是公務人員他是約聘僱人員的就用契約去規範他你要簽的這個契約要同意接受特殊查核那才會任用那這一些人的這個定義是各個單位自己提是不是"},{"start":5429.435,"end":5448.554,"text":"譬如說外交部長的辦公室主任 外交部部長室裡頭有約聘僱人員這個約聘僱人員接下來就很有可能他如果不簽這個同意書 志願查的同意書的話 那他就不能來這裡任職"},{"start":5451.462,"end":5479.845,"text":"不是說一定不能就是說主管就要考慮說既然這個人不願意簽你還要不要用他可以調整去其他不揭密的這個工作那這樣會不會草木皆兵就是說盡量縮小到必要的範圍裡面也提到立法院的立委的國會助理那現在如果有個別的立法委員要求"},{"start":5480.967,"end":5500.097,"text":"我的國會助理全部納入特殊查核你們會收嗎這個可能就要立法院要先訂定相關的辦法我們依照那個立法院的一些辦法不要我立法委員自願啊自願的話我們現在目前沒有法源依據"},{"start":5501.789,"end":5513.083,"text":"那為什麼行政單位就有依據那個行政院以下的行政院以下的啊那立法院不虧行政院以下的就是說外交部聘的約聘雇人員嘛"},{"start":5513.971,"end":5540.286,"text":"那這一個部長認為這個有必要 那我就納入 對不對那我立法委員 我認為我的國會助理有必要我要納入 這樣不行目前沒有法源的依據五院除了行政院以外 其他四院都要試驗自己有自己的這個特查的一些相關的辦法意思就是說 在執行上才會有依據意思就是說如果立法院不同意"},{"start":5541.528,"end":5567.429,"text":"立法院 不要講不同意 立法院沒有送出一個說我們立法院 哪些人應該查那個別在裡頭的人也沒辦法就對了我們就沒有執行議事今天假設這個立法院的院長他說我有聘了這個立院的顧問嘛我聘了立院顧問 那我聘了立院顧問是有薪水的那這兩位我希望能夠納入特殊查核 這樣也不行"},{"start":5576.494,"end":5585.422,"text":"不是公務人員任用法裡面所規範的對象所以還是要回到個別的機關那你們收件是以機關為單位機關會發文來給我們"},{"start":5594.067,"end":5618.622,"text":"機關會發文來給我們好那我舉個例子喔譬如說台中市政府交通局台中市政府交通局的局長室的約聘僱人員我台中市政府交通局發一個說這個幫我列入特殊查核你們說不說包委員你講的這個又是另外一個地方政府也不在這個不在這個1328的列標裡面嗎"},{"start":5621.772,"end":5645.817,"text":"地方政府也不在正面表列的職務裡面那也不能加?加可以加人總如果把它加進來的話就可以那我現在就說如果這個交通局發一個通知人總說把我這個局長的約聘僱的秘書納入那這個機制要怎麼進行?應該是由台中市政府來做發動"},{"start":5647.456,"end":5673.842,"text":"台中市政府來發動 他告知人總說他這些單位的什麼職務 他是有接觸機密的應該要做特殊查核 把它作為公告那會不會有一種情形是這些人都沒有主動提這些機關啊 這些職務人都沒有主動提調查局認為這些人應該納入或者是國家哪一個單位認為這些漏掉了誰可以發動"},{"start":5676.594,"end":5685.75,"text":"人事行政總署可以發動人事行政總署對國家安全他有特殊的他不會主動召集他不會主動召集"},{"start":5689.11,"end":5693.053,"text":"假設現在有一個職務我們發現原來那個職務會牽扯到以前大家都沒想過原來那個職務會影響到總會是有一個單位來發動說這幾個位置應該要把他納入那那個發動的人是誰發動的人總不能是行政院院長吧現在看起來是行政院院長覺得這些人應該要納入"},{"start":5714.948,"end":5741.064,"text":"現在的規定沒有納入所以現在報告是說昨院長發現這些人沒有納入所以就請你們去研議一下哪些人要納入總不能什麼事情都是這個行政院院長來發動現在是院長是指示那個政委在統籌這件事情所以政委有召集過幾次會議那像我們的比如說我再請問一下那個國安局的這個副市長"},{"start":5742.301,"end":5752.274,"text":"所以你一邊走一邊問啊就是說國安局如果發現有一些職務啊譬如說你們在做相關的分析的時候發現某一些職務確實也應該納入你們會尋什麼樣的途徑啊"},{"start":5757.721,"end":5772.596,"text":"希望人總各單位把這幾個職位給納入特殊查核如果是需要特殊查核因為涉及到國家的機密部分我們都很樂見再有一個法規的規範來實施如果有發現這個問題我們會循我們的體系國安體系來做一個反應"},{"start":5781.64,"end":5802.011,"text":"我的意思是說 譬如說全國的紅綠燈 全國的號誌因為我以前當局長的時候 調查局台中的來找我們說你們那個紅綠燈的安全 如果有一天入侵了你們紅綠燈的系統 台中市的號誌大亂"},{"start":5804.571,"end":5823.779,"text":"恐怕很危險所以他希望來檢核我們的這個紅綠燈的這個控制的相關的安全我們的行控中心那就是說如果這件事情被國安局也認為說這件事情確實很嚴重如果有一天全台灣的紅綠燈在瞬間全部被侵入了"},{"start":5824.279,"end":5850.953,"text":"全部都不能運作了 全部都怎樣了如果啦 如果被國安局認定說這件事情在國家安全上也有一定層級的影響那會不會有相關的建議那我說這個建議的這個發動會是在你們這個單位還是台灣有哪一個單位可以說我們發現這幾個位置這幾個職務其實是蠻重要的它有可能的影響到接下來的國家安全它可能影響到它可能會被這一個"},{"start":5852.212,"end":5876.759,"text":"被侵入 這些相關的人員可能會被吸收 諸如此類的事情到底哪一個單位 在國安局的立場到底哪一個單位可以去提議說 這個應該要納入我們如果有發現這個情資進來的時候我們詢那個 比方說我們行政院的那個訴發部因為這個剛剛涉及到一個治安的問題 害侵治安的問題"},{"start":5877.379,"end":5900.142,"text":"所以統籌由行政院的訴發部來做一個統籌的處理所以你們把資訊給訴發部那訴發部再去做研議對 後續的一個研議去推動OK 我是希望說接下來因為今天教導局的報告裡頭寫了蠻多新的職位新的職位 那這些利害關係他就發現說"},{"start":5901.463,"end":5917.308,"text":"原來我也有 原來我也會被要求要自願這樣子所以第一個我擔心草木皆兵就是說無限上綱到一定程度那第二個就是說這一個如果沒有被你納入的"},{"start":5917.788,"end":5938.864,"text":"而這個國家認為這些人應該也被納入這樣的一個機制總不能老是透過行政院長發現一個個案然後行政院長說這也要納入這也要納入這看起來這個制度上是不太對啦所以這個題目是不是看是不是請這個國安局或者是調查局這一邊或人總大家商討一下說這種主動被動的這個機制到底是什麼然後才能夠"},{"start":5947.411,"end":5956.03,"text":"接下來弄到制度比較完善好 謝謝你們 謝謝謝謝王委員 那下一位我們請林倩琦委員發言"},{"start":5968.046,"end":5968.866,"text":"法務部、調查局、國安局、外交部、人事行政總署"},{"start":5987.6,"end":6013.791,"text":"福音同仁大家好那今天我們就針對近期整個包括總統府包括國安會還有這個外交部等等所爆出來的這個共諜案我們在這邊來針對制度面還有未來的因應來做個討論所以本席今天的這個質詢是針對這個國安漏洞然後提出三個討論的這個議題第一個是中程查核制度"},{"start":6014.711,"end":6036.959,"text":"似乎失靈然後第二個部分是總統府的這個反滲透的一個破口不過今天總統府也沒有人來實在有點可惜然後最後一個是那中共現在對整個台灣的系統性滲透似乎已經到了包括黑幫包括宮廟所以這個部分本席這邊要跟大家來做個討論那首先我們剛剛講的三個單位總統府 國安會 外交部那連環報了這個共諜案"},{"start":6041.46,"end":6066.703,"text":"那涉案的人員讓人家非常的驚訝是長期都接觸國家機密但是卻完全沒有有效的動態查核那顯示我們的國安整個制度有點名存實亡雖然一些委員也針對這個部分做了質詢但是大家目前針對過往這個部分的失靈似乎也沒有太多的交代跟回應"},{"start":6067.944,"end":6087.253,"text":"也感覺到很無力所以尤其對於政務在這些應該被查核的人員當中呢政務、約聘跟特聘的人員如同你們所講的沒有相關的這個查核的依據那是不是這顯示了一個制度設計跟執行上的一個失敗呢我想這個部分我們應該來探討一下"},{"start":6088.914,"end":6113.979,"text":"那接下來因為今天總統府沒有代表來那非常可惜也不應該因為感覺上這個總統府的螺絲都已經鬆動了那這個部分應該總統府秘書長要有一些政治責任的回應那最後是新型的這個滲透的樣態在產生我不知道整個國安局對這個部分有沒有一些掌握那能不能建立一些跨部門聯防機制及時的列管還有跟異常團體對金流"},{"start":6118.74,"end":6140.432,"text":"的一個走向能夠了解這個是我們守住國安底線的一個很重要的關鍵所以第一個部分也就是忠誠查核制度的相對失靈先前也有幾位委員問到了這個問題包括總統府的助理盛楚英那麼國安會顧問"},{"start":6143.718,"end":6166.813,"text":"吳尚宇 那你們剛才講說他不在查核範圍那另外外交部 政務 幕僚 何仁傑那他也沒有經過定期的國安審查這就是本席所講的一個動態查核的狀況那但是我們聽起來好像沒有一個單位能夠主動的做些什麼事那這就是本席所說的似乎這樣一個動態的查核有一點失靈"},{"start":6167.794,"end":6193.361,"text":"好 那這幾個單位其實都是非常具有在整個政治權力上來講是非常核心的這就是為什麼這些單位爆出共諜案我想社會各界都非常的震驚所以這些高風險的政後卻沒有進入我們的忠誠安全查核的網絡然後呢 在過程當中似乎也沒有一些警示的機制那目前查核的制度感覺好像形同具聞"},{"start":6194.421,"end":6215.917,"text":"所以依照國家機密保護法第二條第九條的規定那政府對於機密業務人員應實施忠誠與安全之查核那明定的任用前要查核在職要定期查核還有離職前的這個終審那但是呢從幾位在針對先前也有委員問過的"},{"start":6218.358,"end":6241.888,"text":"調單位的查核然後是不是適用於查核的身份等等看來都沒有什麼在過往沒有什麼一個責任那聽起來都是每一個單位都是別人的事情那這個部分本席這邊感到非常的疑惑所以因為這個缺乏落實跟責任歸屬的機制導致查核成為不查最安全"},{"start":6242.808,"end":6261.608,"text":"不查最安全的行政慣性所以現在面對非正式的編制的涉密人員如果沒有明確的法律義務包括政務人員、政治幕僚、特聘顧問、約聘的技術人員這似乎是這整件事情的一個共同漏洞"},{"start":6262.589,"end":6282.801,"text":"那這個部分是不是有必要來立刻研議修正國家機密保護法明定實質接觸的機密者不論其任用形式或編制的身份應該受到法律的這個查查不知道這個是不是可以請部長或局長這邊有一些回應或建議呢"},{"start":6288.329,"end":6307.47,"text":"這個委員的這部分就是要增加特殊查核的名單的這些問題那這部分行政院有規劃將行政局首屬各機關各全體政務人員及協助其辦理業務的秘書助理這些有接觸到涉密的"},{"start":6308.371,"end":6325.48,"text":"這些的聘僱人員主任秘書層級以上的辦公室辦理秘書機要業務的生命也聘僱人員納入辦理特查的對象這不是有增加齁那增加 那這個增加齁 那個調查局這邊也統計齁那目前的話齁"},{"start":6326.701,"end":6339.246,"text":"如果說因為目前有特殊差異有1328個特殊差異如果說這個行政院我們院長的一個指示有增加了這部分會增加1008人那這樣的話"},{"start":6342.709,"end":6357.791,"text":"28以上再增加1008人這樣的話人數會增加2000多人那這部分是有這樣的一個指示目前有這樣子一個規劃就對了有有有 這個行政院有這樣的一個指示"},{"start":6358.342,"end":6375.56,"text":"好的那這個部分本席在上次聽到有委員也針對那個換工作的這個查核也跟你們提出一些問題那所以呢這個動態的查核也很重要的就是一個動態更新的能力那目前似乎都留在靜態錄質時的查核那可能剛才部長所講的"},{"start":6378.743,"end":6385.79,"text":"未來就算有這樣一個規劃那似乎也都是在入職時候的查核但是上次很重要一個問題就是說當有人換單位之後事後行為的追蹤或異常接觸的這個審核機制那會導致"},{"start":6394.212,"end":6416.932,"text":"在任用前查核之後呢任用進來之後就變成很放任然後在職也沒有追蹤的常態現象那目前查核的目前涉案的幾個人員是不是都有這樣一個共通性因為中間都沒有再被查核也沒有任何異常報告的程序那麼像何仁傑這個是最著名的他換了單位那也沒有查核那他第一次查核是因為他剛進入了這個國安會進行了查核"},{"start":6419.995,"end":6436.405,"text":"那這似乎在風險控管的一個基本原則上有一些衝突所以是不是我記得上一回你們也說這個人事單位要主動提出來那我想是不是可以請教一下人事總署的代表那你們如何來主動提出"},{"start":6437.811,"end":6452.548,"text":"這樣子的一個機制呢跟委員報告依照那個任用法以及相關授權法令的規定各機關的職務數是由他們去檢視業務所提報的所以它還關係到各機關嘛但是各機關的回應都說這個人事單位要主動提出來"},{"start":6453.049,"end":6474.035,"text":"所以本席這邊就很confused不知道你們在內部的一個這個查核的作業那究竟如果業務單位沒有提給你們那是不是有點堵直那你們沒有主動去查核是不是又不夠負責所以這是本席在先前針對這樣的問題聽到大家的一個回應那似乎看起來沒有一個單位能夠主動來做這件事本席不知道這樣子的認知對不對"},{"start":6475.515,"end":6492.795,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為那個相關法規裡面是寫國家安全或重大利益那我們請客機關的檢視的時候都有列舉一些好比說國安啊情治什麼什麼什麼的就是有請客機關就是大概依照什麼樣子的性質是屬於所以先前就有這樣了嘛對不對那這樣看起來是這幾個單位都有一點這個瀆職喔"},{"start":6495.418,"end":6510.495,"text":"跟委員報告一下各機關內部的盤點因為那個是各機關內部的行政處理的事務流程那到底是由那個程序上面是誰決定應該還是首長做最後的決定就是哪一些職務要特查這應該還是各機關自己要去做內部盤點"},{"start":6511.736,"end":6517.542,"text":"好的 那今天你們有出來做這樣子的說明那不過本席認為你們也應該要建立一個行為安全評估跟記錄審核的一個制度你今天雖然做這樣的回應說那各機關的業務主管應該要提出可是發生的這個事情看起來應該各業務單位都沒有主動的提出"},{"start":6530.794,"end":6558.829,"text":"所以當事情發生的時候他說你們這邊應該要提出來所以這樣感覺有點踢皮球本席聽了幾次都聽不到真正的全署跟問責的這個單位所以本席今天先做這樣一個建議所以你們是不是應該要將駐外人員或高階幕僚或涉密的單位的職員也納入一些定期的看你們用什麼方式的一個規劃去做審查他才會有一個持續性然後跟即時性就不會像這次發生了然後發現哇這麼久了"},{"start":6560.45,"end":6574.51,"text":"結果一查查核 都好幾年了耶那大部分的人都沒有經過定時的或更新的這樣一個查核我想這是問題很重要的一個所在所以人事總署是不是這個部分也應該建立查核失靈的一些這個責任歸屬的這個機制"},{"start":6577.475,"end":6600.195,"text":"跟委員報告我們會遵照那個院長的指示喔就是就那個揭密程度這個是查核範圍跟項目的部分以及查核的頻率那以及確實去督導各機關要怎麼去檢視他們的那個特查的植物數好的那這個部分是不是你們如果有比較具體的那個辦法出來那把相關的資料給本席做一個參考好不好是有辦法會會嫌所以到時候應該是會公開"},{"start":6602.11,"end":6630.537,"text":"好的 謝謝那本來今天我也想針對這個總統府還有這個國安會來做一些探討結果他們都沒有人出席而且我覺得已經也不是第一次所以我覺得這個問題還蠻嚴重的那我們沒有辦法在這邊探討問題那他們的部分我就先保留希望能夠哪一天他們真的能夠來跟我們面對面大家來討論一下這個問題不是只有問責而已而是問題出在哪裡是我們很想要處理跟探討的"},{"start":6631.357,"end":6657.631,"text":"好那最後這邊我提醒一下其實不只是這個中共對於我們的高階相關的人員掌握得非常透徹那近期的這個共諜案其實我們在點的部分已經都被滲透了但是呢據本席的了解目前這個中共結合黑幫也好公廟也好那麼地下金流網絡跟有一些地方社團的"},{"start":6659.453,"end":6676.326,"text":"現狀跟網狀的這個操作操控也非常的嚴重那看起來目前都已經有一些滲透點了所以根據國安局的報告不好意思國安局好像是代表您好那中共其實有吸收一些台灣的幫派分子那透過"},{"start":6676.986,"end":6694.829,"text":"借款,他透過很多種不同的形式借款、賭債、地下錢莊等金流然後也刺探一些軍事的機密那甚至呢,在戰時還會生一些五星旗來癱瘓交通什麼樣子的樣態都有那我不知道國安局目前在這個部分掌握的程度"},{"start":6698.012,"end":6716.364,"text":"像中共滲透的手法我們大概都有掌握剛所舉例的像比如說黑幫、宮廟或地下金流等等團體這個方式大概我們國安局都會掌握有收援目前你們對於這整個掌握有多少比例的信心?"},{"start":6717.385,"end":6727.322,"text":"我想我們情報掌握以後認為說這個涉及到國家安全的一些相關的證據以後我們會移給司法警察機關做後續的一個偵辦"},{"start":6729.833,"end":6752.988,"text":"所以你們過去都比較集中在軍政的這個情報還有敵情的狀態那本席今天提醒的是中共對我們基礎社會的基層結構那目前的滲透我們希望國安局在這個部分也能夠更積極一點的掌握然後所以還是問一下在本席所談的這個基層結構您目前掌握的比例你自己給自己打多少percentage"},{"start":6753.969,"end":6767.787,"text":"我想比例部分我們沒辦法去確確的一個說明不過像比方說村里長或者一些剛剛講的公廟或者黑道幫派等等這個基層的這個層面的部分當然我們都會列為一個情收的一個要項"},{"start":6769.128,"end":6789.471,"text":"所以本席在這邊就做這個部分的提醒因為先前這幾個共諜案已經讓我們很驚嚇了基本上已經掌握到我國很重要的一個政治權利中心那當然在這個社會基礎基層裡面那如果再被這樣子很大面積的滲透我想我們國安就真的面臨很大的一個問題"},{"start":6790.672,"end":6810.424,"text":"好 所以最後也請警政署這邊能夠來配合那針對這些公廟組織幫派那能夠有相關的這個列管那有具體的事蹟好不好那我們共同為我們的國安來努力好 謝謝謝林委員 那下一位我們請王委員 王宏威委員發言"},{"start":6819.923,"end":6832.449,"text":"好謝謝主席主席我想在我咨詢之前仍然要針對總統府和國安會並沒有派代表來參加我們這次司法法治委員會的這個專題報告因為"},{"start":6836.211,"end":6854.27,"text":"這兩個單位事實上都已經被證實有共諜涉入這是非常嚴重的事情那麼尤其我們現在賴政府呢現在尤其針對中共是境外敵對勢力那麼也是要整個升高我們國安的意識"},{"start":6855.231,"end":6874.862,"text":"但是今天在我們的最高單位總統府跟國安會都已經出現涉嫌共諜但是呢這兩個單位竟然連代表都不來參加來報告我覺得不但是藐視國會也顯示我們的政府不過是說一套做一套"},{"start":6875.402,"end":6904.451,"text":"所以在這邊我們一定要再做譴責尤其國安會秘書長其實包含國防外交委員會也曾經排會然後我們司法法治委員會也排會但是都聚不到這個立法院來做報告我覺得這樣子根本就是完全藐視這個共諜案對於我們國安所造成的影響好 那主席我想接下來我請那個法務部部長麻煩部長還有國安局"},{"start":6905.691,"end":6909.292,"text":"副局長還有調查局局長我先請教部長因為在這次共諜案裡面除了這次的他的涉及的單位層級之高讓大家非常驚訝之外那另外大家也特別關注到"},{"start":6930.719,"end":6955.407,"text":"之前大家也提到這個盛楚英他在立法院從游錫堃院長時代他就已經擔任助理然後也有著我們非常多位的立委的辦公室包含許智傑還有這個郭育晴委員以及這個羅美玲委員那麼後來呢這個盛楚英呢是以20萬元交保"},{"start":6956.047,"end":6976.101,"text":"那大家就在質疑作為共諜案這麼嚴重的一個這樣的涉案情節是20萬元交保但是如果我們再去比較其他的比如說最近社會高度關注的那個挖眼案這個鄰居之間吵架然後呢就是挖了雙眼"},{"start":6977.683,"end":6991.554,"text":"導致永久性的失明這個案子呢是12萬元交保然後接下來就是最近鬧得沸沸揚揚我們現在剪掉全台大搜索大羈押"},{"start":6992.635,"end":7020.358,"text":"的這個有關於連署民進黨立委的這個案子這裡面呢包含我們之前也提到這個四位年輕人分別以30萬元跟50萬元交保更不要說最近包含這個台北市黨部的主委黃綠錦如在內還有我們最近包含台中市黨部的這個書記長在內非常多人都被羈押進監"},{"start":7021.559,"end":7037.23,"text":"所以請問部長請問共諜案它的情節是不是比挖掩案就是跟挖掩案還有這個所謂的你所謂的偽照文書到底我們這個交保金額它的評斷標準是什麼"},{"start":7038.951,"end":7063.219,"text":"以這三個案子 過去還有喔 多少偽照文書過去也有我們零一級委員涉入了是 就是到就是有詐領助理費 也有偽照文書他的助理大概最高也是十萬元交保好 那麼這樣的太陽這麼多但是這個交保金額卻讓在我們社會一般大眾來講覺得這個情節重大 完全跟"},{"start":7066.66,"end":7091.708,"text":"並不符合比例原則所以請問一下部長請問我們這交保金額是怎麼定的跟委員報告就是檢查部當然是在涉及不同的一個案件的一個嫌疑都是會秉持客觀公正的執法態度那因為但是這個每個個案的情節是不同的那有關你金額交保的一個的"},{"start":7092.388,"end":7120.647,"text":"的金額多寡或者要不要羈押或者等等的強制處分權的一個一個行使齁都是要個案來判斷齁那我想這都是符合法律的規定所以如果按照沒什麼那個不同的一個沒有什麼標準可言這不是說沒什麼標準這個是就是要個案的一個判斷那我想請問喔如果說以罷免民進黨立委的案件是不是他的涉案會比共諜案更嚴重"},{"start":7122.314,"end":7137.892,"text":"這個個案的情況不同我沒辦法就個案對於國家社會安全的危害來做一個來答覆無法相比這個個案不同個案的情況不同我沒辦法就因為我不是承辦檢察官我沒辦法就個案來"},{"start":7139.033,"end":7165.978,"text":"到個交保金額多少或者要不要羈押因為我們一般社會大眾對於司法總是有一個大家一般的這個有一把尺所以我在講說如果按照這個交保金額所以連署民進黨立委的這個他的危害情節比涉及共諜案更嚴重比挖掩案更嚴重造成人家永久失明更嚴重其他的那個涉及共諜都羈押禁建"},{"start":7166.758,"end":7188.852,"text":"但是還是有一位是交保啊但是那個個案的案件不一樣 情況不一樣那個我沒辦法就委員的說到底是要交保或治啊因為每個個案的情形不一樣所以委員說為什麼要交保那共鐵不願意當然共鐵是很嚴重的行為但是每個個案由懲辦檢查去按照這個個案"},{"start":7189.926,"end":7200.14,"text":"的一個不同的一個狀況去做不同的強制處分錢的一個行使請問一下這個盛楚英這位助理他目前仍然是交保中嗎"},{"start":7201.249,"end":7224.112,"text":"現在是20萬交保嗎?這是20萬交保那當時大家也談到很多既然涉及共諜案其他人都被抓起來然後他可不可以在外面湮滅證據或者是他有沒有逃跑的嫌疑等等有沒有考慮在內?這個檢察官都會通盤來考量這個個案我沒辦法幫檢察官來回答這個問題"},{"start":7225.914,"end":7231.717,"text":"因為個案是檢察官我必須要講我剛才列出這幾個交保的金額案例這跟我們一般的民眾對於涉案情節的重大真的有非常大的一個不同我想請問一下我們調查局局長"},{"start":7247.199,"end":7267.379,"text":"好 局長在你們的報告裡面談到就是因為這一次因為涉及的這個共諜在我們政府高層裡面非常多就特別談到了就是有關於中程查核的對象現在呢行政院要把中程查核對象要擴大嘛對不對是"},{"start":7269.056,"end":7291.477,"text":"按照你們的說法 那麼就是會把原來原來的這個終審查核對象按照現在行政院從會從1300多位增加到2300多位是嗎目前第一階段希望能夠對就是這個已經是確認的事情了嗎現在目前朝這個方向在規劃 還沒有做最後的確認"},{"start":7293.16,"end":7321.549,"text":"所謂還沒有做最後的確認是什麼意思你們不是說要針對政務官還有約聘僱的人員特別是跟著這些手掌在旁邊的這些約聘僱的這些助理啊秘書啊因為這次出現事情的大部分都是這一類的人員老師說啦以前很多都是啊這個手掌一路帶著像吳釗燮這個何仁傑就是如此啊一路"},{"start":7322.89,"end":7341.627,"text":"從那個他去哪裡他就帶到哪裡因為從這個民進黨之內就開始一路把他帶上去那這些人就是有關於這一些手掌旁邊的旁邊的這些助理機要是不是應該列入查核範圍內應該"},{"start":7343.328,"end":7363.394,"text":"好 所以這個應該是確定的 增加1008元所以目前就是朝這個方向在規劃那我另外請問你喔 我另外請問你在你的報告裡面有講說你們也準備針對立法院這應該是包含立法委員跟立法院的助理做特殊查核嗎這個我們尊重立法院"},{"start":7365.583,"end":7381.583,"text":"因為你們是準備把它擴大這個不是行政院單方面能夠決定的 這個完全要尊重立法院那為什麼會列入呢因為很多立委也有提出來"},{"start":7383.18,"end":7398.713,"text":"什麼叫很多立委提出來很多委員也有提出來說如果說他的助理要請我們調查局來做這個特殊查核那可不可以但是我們就沒有任何的法律意義我記得你當時你的回答是因為你們現在沒有相關的規定就說比如說我王宏威我懷疑我的助理那我覺得應該要做一下這個終審查核"},{"start":7406.179,"end":7429.488,"text":"所以你這個意思我不懂因為看到你的報告感覺上是要你們全部擴大到立法院包含對立法委員的忠誠查核對立法委員的助理所以你這個報告是什麼意思這個報告的意思就是我們沒有辦法擴大到立法院但是如果說立法院覺得這個部分也很重要"},{"start":7430.188,"end":7452.693,"text":"必須要納入特殊查核的話 那立法院必須要先訂定自己內部的一個規定所以的意思說 它必須變成一個通案而不是說今天我個案 我比如說我王洪威覺得請調查局對我的辦公室同仁做忠誠查核所以它不能成為個案 而是必須要成為"},{"start":7453.573,"end":7479.193,"text":"通案要成為通案好那另外再請教在你們辦這個共諜案的時候因為比如說立法委員的助理他橫跨好幾位委員比如說你們辦聖楚音的時候你們有沒有通知他所屬的立委辦公室的立委然後告訴告訴他我們要辦他的共諜案沒有沒有完全沒有知會不可能"},{"start":7480.214,"end":7488.422,"text":"完全沒有智慧所以同樣的半合人節的時候有沒有智慧國安會讓國安會知道這個事情"},{"start":7489.878,"end":7518.641,"text":"都沒有 所以不管總統府 國安會 或者立法委員在你們懷疑或者偵辦的過程裡面那麼你們都沒有事先告知沒有 我們調查局不會這是確定的喔 因為我們這邊確定 沒有 因為大家會質疑說為什麼他有些都可以事先他就先請離職是不是事先已經有得到封生"},{"start":7520.356,"end":7546.623,"text":"有從各種管道得到風聲 比如說聖楚音在辦你確定 完全沒有我非常確定 我非常負責任的跟委員回答那另外 對不起 再給我一點點時間我請一下我們國安局副局長 請教一個問題過去 之前的金巡局局長曾經說在台灣大概有五千名共諜在活動"},{"start":7547.603,"end":7575.702,"text":"但是以我們現在所抓的看起來只是非常非常的少數如果說有五千名共諜如果說我們過去其實掌握大概有五千名共諜有在活動的話那以我們現在所進行偵辦或者是調查或者起訴浮上檯面的非常非常之少所以請問一下這個五千名他到底這個數目有沒有是太碰烘還是事實上確實是如此"},{"start":7578.484,"end":7603.262,"text":"根據我們的掌握 我們手頭上是沒有那麼多人但個人的評論 他個人的評論我們不加以置評那會不會把現有在中級人士在台失聯的這些人把他算在裡面 但是我們沒辦法去做一個所以國安局現在手上掌握 就是懷疑的數目字沒有那麼多有沒有一半"},{"start":7604.315,"end":7629.55,"text":"有沒有兩三千我想這個數據我不方便在這邊因為有些案件都進入到一個偵辦的一個程序啦沒有我只是說total大概你們有掌握的人數是多少這個不涉及個案這個人數我們是有掌握但是我這邊不方便在這邊來說明但是只是沒有五千名這麼多而已是是好好謝謝謝謝王委員那下一位我們請審發會委員發言"},{"start":7649.763,"end":7673.103,"text":"主席各位同仁這個我想我們今天我看今天我們等於是第二次連續我們召委連續安排第二次的這個有關於這個總統府國安會外交部的共諜滲透導致國家機敏資訊外洩提出檢討報告相關措施的這樣子的會議這個部分"},{"start":7676.904,"end":7698.345,"text":"想必是我們的召委認為這個主題非常重要所以他前一次禮拜五也排,然後這一次禮拜一又排但是我今天非常罕見當然啦,在整個過程裡面我們知道我們立法院在委員會的審查大家其實都有一個共識,就是我們盡量"},{"start":7700.148,"end":7727.874,"text":"避免就個案尤其是司法偵查中的個案的細節具體細節去做討論我們可能會針對個案的社會現象或個案的制度去討論包括我們今天主席所列的這樣子的主題他也是針對這些個案的制度面去討論這個方向這我想這是大家的共識但是我們剛才看整個國民黨的立委藍白立委他們的質詢過程"},{"start":7729.591,"end":7756.038,"text":"大概很多都是針對這個個案包括現在司法徵詢的這個內容這個司法偵辦的這個個案的內容來進行這個個案式的把這裡當作一個私設的刑堂做個案式的這個討論我個人是認為非常不以為然尤其是我們召委"},{"start":7757.52,"end":7781.847,"text":"我這個過去我對我們召委也是算是尊重大家也是老朋友那我就特別我想召委連續排了兩次一定認為都這個主題非常重要那結果剛才召委自己上來質詢的時間我從頭就要看看就想聽一下我們召委的高見這個從司法界出來他針對這個國家安全國安會議對於這個外交部"},{"start":7783.374,"end":7795.579,"text":"這些國家機密資料外洩的相關防護措施到底有什麼樣的看法結果所有的時間都在討論這個國民黨黨部連署罷免這個的這個違照文書這個還有個人資料法的這個犯罪偵查案件的個案"},{"start":7810.183,"end":7821.919,"text":"還不是個案內容還針對這個辦案過程中的一個強制執行手段裡面的一個公文這樣來質詢其實我在立法院這麼多年我很少看到"},{"start":7823.018,"end":7846.498,"text":"很多立委這樣子,很多立委今天不管主題是什麼反正我今天看到法務部長來,我就問法務部其他的事情我今天看到調查局來,我就問調查局其他的事情我看到司法院來就問司法院,財政部來就問今天報紙上面財政部的事情來講不管這個召委列什麼樣的主題,我就講我的但是我很少看到自己做召委自己排一個主題結果上來不講這個主題的還排兩次"},{"start":7851.884,"end":7872.214,"text":"這個我個人是認為說對於司法個案偵查中的案件的尊重我個人是抱非常大的一個遺憾我常常講說人必自重而人重之人必自武而人武之"},{"start":7874.414,"end":7903.045,"text":"我們今天如果說真的召委認為說這樣子的案件非常重要那在討論過程中大家就是應該針對制度我剛剛聽很多委員都在都談都跟這個主題制度無關都是在針對個案哪一個人怎麼樣哪一個人在偵辦的過程中他怎麼樣也有啦也有委員是針對制度不是全部都我沒有一竿子打翻一條船也有委員是在針對制度的這我個人就非常的認同"},{"start":7905.916,"end":7926.666,"text":"所以我個人對於今天這樣子安排的主題我個人先提出我個人的一些看法因為這個主題今天也牽涉到我們司法申辦中的案件也牽涉到我們整個國家的"},{"start":7928.05,"end":7939.634,"text":"我們境外的敵對勢力對台灣的嚴重滲透等等相關不屬於法務部執掌範圍的一些主題"},{"start":7942.745,"end":7966.028,"text":"所以我現在我也很不好意思,我先請部長上來那如果有相關主題是局長還是我們國安局等等這些不用上來,都先不用上來,如果有相關主題再上來就好因為我自己其實也不是很清楚說像這樣子的問題我們到底保安部這邊除了就"},{"start":7967.731,"end":7994.936,"text":"個案現在在偵辦中的個案這些部分有一些部分我們也不會在這裡討論之外有一些它其實是跨部會的問題其實剛剛很多委員都在講今天我們我們稍微之所以安排這樣的主題當然跟近來我們包括總統府包括國安會包括外交部甚至包括過去的立法院"},{"start":7996.004,"end":8024.082,"text":"的一些人員這個我們在偵辦的過程中發現了這個在這些單位裡面確實有這個有這個共諜滲透的具體的證據因此我們展開偵辦那事實上這個社會大家當然是說哇這個外交部裡面也有,總統府裡面也有那這個國安會裡面也有共諜"},{"start":8025.205,"end":8038.582,"text":"那其實整個社會我們這十幾二十年來整個台灣社會剛才不分藍綠白委員大家都提到中國對台灣的滲透是無所不在的無所不在這個"},{"start":8042.25,"end":8067.728,"text":"不管是總統府,不管是立法院,不管是各政黨不管是地方縣市政府,不管是地方林里長,不管是地方的宮廟組織、林里組織甚至黑幫組織、商業組織滲透可以說是無所不在我這邊列出很多案件,我想也都不用一一講各黨也都有"},{"start":8069.07,"end":8070.331,"text":"國民黨過去也有被起訴的民眾黨也有發言人收受中共執行參與選舉"},{"start":8087.334,"end":8095.357,"text":"但是不一樣的是我們關心制度上面制度上面如何來防制境外敵對勢力對我們台灣各個層面的滲透"},{"start":8101.667,"end":8131.29,"text":"我們發現一個案子 發現一個漏洞我們在制度上面我們就那個案子我們來偵辦同時在制度上面我們從同類的案件我們下去下去了解有沒有相類似的案子再來從制度上面我們要來防堵這就是發現這個案子而不是發現案子之後我們馬上就來這個國安會來 你要負責喔 你民進黨有 裡面發現共諜所以你民進黨叫做綠共先反過來指責被害人"},{"start":8133.851,"end":8155.292,"text":"一發生過來指責說你們民進黨為什麼,所以你們民進黨叫做綠共那今天什麼,今天所有的宮廟這些公主都是公共這些黑幫是黑共民眾黨有發言人,所以民眾黨這個是重共"},{"start":8159.242,"end":8183.073,"text":"這種扣帽子,然後在這邊這種政治語言,我個人認為是大可不必啦在政治上,大家也都知道在玩什麼樣的把戲啦這個我列出這麼多,大家可以參考啦而且說現在民進黨這麼嚴重那我們看看過去馬英九執政的時候就沒有嗎?欸馬英九捏"},{"start":8184.397,"end":8205.827,"text":"馬英九執政的時候我們國家沒有這些案件被滲透嗎我這邊列出來的馬英九時代的他當任總統時代所發生的這些相關的國安案件有這麼多呢所以我想這個我一直很不希望說把這個立法院這樣子的質詢當作這個政論節目這樣子來談論藍綠立場"},{"start":8211.328,"end":8239.426,"text":"但是我認為這些事情我們大家就是要嚴肅的看待我們從制度面上面來防堵未來有可能的這個發生我們現在發生的案子我們嚴密偵辦我們要發現他們的手法我們要發現他們相關的滲透的方式與法律的制裁同時我們也從這些案件裡面去發現這樣子的模式然後我們再"},{"start":8241.052,"end":8266.432,"text":"來修補我們的制度我們的漏洞如果真的有心我們立法院自己我們就應該稍微來安排一個剛才王宏威委員有問我們立法院的助理需不需要安全查核這很好啊叫周萬來來啊安排叫立法院秘書長周萬來來報告我們國安立法院的國安立法院也沒有又沒有政風"},{"start":8269.636,"end":8288.661,"text":"然後再來現在的這個兩岸人民關係條例來修改啊我們自己立法院的這些委員到中國沒有限制說不能去但是要報備連核准都不用報備這樣子也不行再有程序委員會擋了363次什麼叫程序委員會擋363次就是不讓你討論你討論都不讓你討論不讓你排進議程"},{"start":8299.678,"end":8310.123,"text":"不要說贊成加強對立法委員附中國的這些報備程序不要說我贊成我連反對的權力都沒有因為程序委員會就把你封殺了"},{"start":8313.644,"end":8330.336,"text":"這些國家安全的相關法令的修改修法過程裡面在阻擋然後在這裡在安排這個我們要怎麼樣防堵這個國家機密資訊外洩然後要別人提出檢討報告在我看這個就是標準的雙標所以"},{"start":8336.322,"end":8361.171,"text":"我也看到說我們現在行政院主任長他也有所宣示我希望我們法務部以及相關的單位我們按照我們政府現在目前有關這些相關防治措施的強化我們能夠積極研議能夠加強管理 以上謝謝那我們下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言待會我們先做個會議程序宣告"},{"start":8362.458,"end":8381.19,"text":"稍後在翁委員小林詢問完畢之後 休息五分鐘謝謝主席 有請哇 兩個不來我們請仁總 仁總也不來"},{"start":8392.406,"end":8397.629,"text":"人總不來 人總先來請問你是培訓考用處處長處長有來 調查局局長也請上台"},{"start":8409.475,"end":8424.061,"text":"兩位好,我想今天這個召委這樣的安排是很有意思啦,整個國安的破口,那如何要去做一個防堵啊。那剛剛省委員在提,我也是有感而發啦。"},{"start":8425.562,"end":8449.719,"text":"這個本來上個會期跟這個會期其實在程序委員會吳宗憲委員招委 你也是程序委員招委剛好我們封曉林委員也是招委那確實是國安法案在程序委員會裡面一次次把它給擋掉了那今天來召集這樣的一個議題其實就有一點背感讓人覺得有點感慨"},{"start":8450.76,"end":8475.874,"text":"那其實國安這個不分黨派國家事其實是大家的啦那針對公務人員忠誠的查核這個部分那我想公務人員的忠誠這個查核這倒也不是什麼新的命題啦這個早在2002年的時候這個在修正公務人員任用法當中你說一般的查核裡面的國籍犯罪事態可以產生五種的法律效果任用"},{"start":8476.494,"end":8494.607,"text":"不任用免職辦理退休或值錢或撤銷這一個任用特殊查核的部分就其實是針對沒有有沒有去受過外國政府勢力的利誘跟密切接觸外患可以得到任用跟不任用這樣的一個結果可是我請任總先說明一下就是說你知道我們"},{"start":8499.736,"end":8515.859,"text":"社會大眾可能會產生一個疑惑的就是說你在追查 你在這套的查核的一個制度啊你們過去有什麼弊端嗎有兩千多年到現在那變成說造成現在的國安的一個破口那這個部分是不是任總先說明一下"},{"start":8517.014,"end":8542.623,"text":"跟委員報告因為就是辦法是規定是說各機關就是要去檢視一下要去提列他的特查職務然後提列特查職務之後這個職務要禁用的時候他們會函請調查局辦理特查所以剛隨委員所提示的那個弊案的部分因為因為是前端的部分人事單位是機關是函送調查局辦理特查所以這部分恐怕我們是沒有掌握到什麼"},{"start":8543.283,"end":8550.25,"text":"其實你們到 我倒覺得任總倒也不是只有人事的這樣的一個後臺而已啦你們其實是國安的一個前哨"},{"start":8551.616,"end":8574.538,"text":"我倒是這樣認為,你像比如說4月17號行政委員會裡面講說面對境外的敵對勢力要按照公務人員的一個任用法第四條需要去做特殊的一個查核那你們人事長會後也講說會去思考是不是每一年規律查核的一個方向去進行"},{"start":8576.426,"end":8594.307,"text":"那你還沒去做什麼制度,要怎麼補破網?行政院開完以後,兩禮拜你方案就會開出來?你以為兩禮拜這樣急救張出來,你們真的可以達到什麼防堵國安破口的一個效果嗎?"},{"start":8594.98,"end":8610.687,"text":"跟委員報告就是目前總署已經遵照院長的指示事項就是我們在研修那個特查辦法的草案包括就是剛剛委員所提到的那個查核的評次啊不是進來之後查了就沒事了那此外那個查核的內容"},{"start":8611.167,"end":8637.266,"text":"因為查核的內容最近有一些像是相關國安法規的修正什麼的是不是查核的項目要檢視然後另外就是院長也有提示到說目前那個任用法制不是依照任用法禁用的其他類的人員 聘僱人員等等這部分要怎麼樣子的去強化那個特查的機制就是這個我總之都依照那個院長的指示在那個積極的研議處理中這個我就叫局長了局長我剛才看"},{"start":8640.134,"end":8649.178,"text":"人種這個地方的講法你說國安這個部分這其實只要有涉案或者牽扯到國安這聽起來就非常肅殺會不會有這樣的感覺尤其是這個針對的是公務人員的一個部分我們過去在強調公務人員基於是特別權力關係"},{"start":8659.281,"end":8683.2,"text":"那當然就變成說公務人員的忠誠是一種義務那這些我都有點擔心說在這種肅殺的情況之下你們這個第一線的人會不會去嚴守這樣一個偵辦的過程的一個比例原則這個也不可不慎不可不慎以前當事人特別權力關係當事人的地位根本就不對等"},{"start":8684.036,"end":8707.066,"text":"對不對 然後你醫務也都不確定嘛還有一些特別的一個規則在我也很怕有特別的規則跑出來那變成說 連以前連徵送都不得徵送的但是經過那麼多的憲法的一個大法官會議的一個解釋出來以後台灣其實現在也都不一樣了那你怎麼樣 逐漸去落實在如果有公務人員保障法的一個修訂的時候尤其是針對這些國安事件"},{"start":8709.867,"end":8721.051,"text":"你們這個手勞,國民有期待,可是呢,偵辦起來又虎虎生風,然後到最後呢,常常都是一陣風,後面就沒有人去追蹤了。"},{"start":8724.856,"end":8748.801,"text":"這個要特別特別的謹慎今天國安災難委員也提出他們的一個擔憂啦 擔憂啦可是有犯罪 你說自己始作俑者自己犯罪完以後在那邊哇哇叫這也沒有道理啦可是呢 可是呢 確實啊司法這一線 那個界線真的也要掌握清楚啦也要掌握清楚啦所以呢 我特別啊"},{"start":8749.421,"end":8772.811,"text":"又要來救教的就是說你像我們這一次的修法裡面接下來可能會動用到修法的部分今天張偉排這個像總統府跟國安會到底要不要到立法院來備詢這個都是高度政治的一個爭議就是說其實在大法官會議裡面當然也有講清楚也有講"},{"start":8773.567,"end":8801.406,"text":"但是也未必清楚那沒有講清楚的時候 大家都會想說那憲政上有沒有慣例憲政上有慣例的 不來啦像我上禮拜的禮拜 禮拜日秘書長有憲政慣例的都不來這個沒有憲政慣例的你就哭哭白那當然有高度的政治性的一個爭議的時候在立法院裡面本來就是會攻防就是會攻防可是呢 我擔心到一點是什麼"},{"start":8802.952,"end":8828.981,"text":"立法院 國安破口的部分 你去把它看立法院那立法院裡面 我們都很擔心各個地方都會不會形成一個破口以現在來看的話 立法院的助理的部分根本就不屬於你們這個特殊插核的你們現在 我看起來你們一共有幾項咧不在那個正面表列你們正面表列都中幾項"},{"start":8834.92,"end":8857.539,"text":"那你就沒有去涵蓋到立法院這個部分那立法院有這些助理其實都要接收到一些國家的一個機密那其實他是有機會的那有沒有可能 你們有沒有什麼樣的一個建議啦你要說叫立法院來率先治律 那不可能啦立法院就只會管別人而已 立法院要怎麼管自己"},{"start":8859.397,"end":8877.938,"text":"啊 立法院有時候又沒人要死啊 委會又比較笨大咧你叫這些立法院的助理辦公室自己去弄出一個法案然後說 我把這個1328項職務裡面把立法院的國會助理全部把他給納進去這我有時候覺得這有點違背人性你們有沒有什麼建議"},{"start":8878.679,"end":8897.988,"text":"我們就是建議 我們還是完全都尊重立法院國安不能講尊重 國安不能講尊重我說你真正的想法 你真正的想法是一個拿出來講嘛我們當然是希望立法院能夠制定一個特查的一個辦法讓我們能夠有一個依循的一個特查的一個依據"},{"start":8900.309,"end":8908.098,"text":"這個會去 大家在說跌啦 國民黨就覺得他跟中國比較好 他就開始跟民進黨說 你也跌 你也共 你也綠共這個當然是胡說八道啦 但問題就是說 國會裡面 你去把它看這一些產生國安破口的 他不會分黨派 他不會分黨派"},{"start":8920.524,"end":8923.025,"text":"民進黨執政 最好是在你民進黨旁邊在國會裡面 國會助理 或者政府部門裡面把你放進他們想要的這些情報人員我們就稱之為蝶了嘛對岸的境外勢力 中國對我們的影響是最大的嘛可是重點就是說 任何人執政的時候"},{"start":8940.49,"end":8954.455,"text":"他都會被安插的一個對象所以如果要把它定性成說這個叫諜的話那也可以叫共的話那也可以就是老共對我們就是太糟糕太有這個敵意嘛但問題是你去把它看為什麼會講出說在國會裡面這個不會分黨派我記憶最深刻的就是說你看這"},{"start":8964.321,"end":8979.127,"text":"當年協助駭客進入健保系統要去竊取蔡英文總統的 前總統的病歷判十當嘛齁陳偉仁那個啊那也一樣啦那是以前國民黨的立委辦公室裡面所以這個就可以證明就是說"},{"start":8980.257,"end":8999.572,"text":"這些所謂的諜啊 大家很討厭的要來企圖來影響台灣的一個國安的他不會去分黨派所以局長你剛提到的是說這樣的一個漏洞你也建議立法院自己本身來啟動修法是這樣子嗎是是國安局要來 國安局來 國安局來"},{"start":9001.445,"end":9016.997,"text":"反正這對你也很重要這其實都國安的 我也不可以讓你自己一直在那裡喝茶你看這個你目前什麼完成對中央 五院 還有這個信義機構裡面沒有納入安全查核制度人員的風險去做盤點"},{"start":9021.166,"end":9039.085,"text":"我想這個是其他部會或者院裡面層級需要去做一個盤點只要有接觸到機敏資料的這些人我們建議在法制面建制完整要做一個查核這樣才能補上國安的一個漏洞"},{"start":9039.545,"end":9061.24,"text":"你就不敢大膽說 人家調查局長剛才就很敢說的說你立法院當然建議你去修法 把人家給堵起來啊專業在這裡說都沒關係啦 專業在這裡說都沒關係啦各黨我相信有時候只是政治攻防而已你真正講到核心問題的時候 大家還是要對你們要有尊重啦所以就是說調查局這樣也認為 國安局這邊其實你們也認為國會這一塊其實還是要鼓破王嘛"},{"start":9065.667,"end":9093.092,"text":"是不是這樣說應該是要把它補起來啦是嘛 所以你也緊錄他 你也緊錄他所以啦 人總我要再追問的就是說那你現在現行高風險職務你欠缺這樣的一個查核制度你是不是只針對公務人員任用法的適用對象或者立法院助理因為身份沒有納入有沒有可能改依職務涉密的程度來劃分標準而非用身份來做區分"},{"start":9096.477,"end":9117.352,"text":"這跟委員報告,就是植物涉密程度的部分,目前初步的想法,但是還要跟各機關會商,可能會在請各機關提列的時候,用教室性的文字,就是請他們要按照院長的指示,就是說要按照那個揭密的程度,來去提列那個特查的植物。但是你推到我這裡,你也是沒辦法,你這樣說也是沒辦法。"},{"start":9120.025,"end":9147.051,"text":"跟委員報告那個院外的部分如果是工人任用法規禁用的那當然是用特查辦法沒有問題那至於其他的人員因為就是就像剛剛其他部會所講就尊重那個立法院用人機關你們當然會講尊重啦但是我必須要再次的提醒啦國會它不應該是國安的一個死角啦也更不能成為制度漏洞的一個庇護所啦你說面對無所不在這種滲透跟威脅"},{"start":9148.786,"end":9177.36,"text":"任何地方都不應該有特權啦!是不是這樣說?頂頭嘛!局長應該是嘛!官員也應該是嘛!所以這個部分其實還是要想辦法要提出你們的一個比較比較敏感、因為重要的大膽的去做一個建言啦!這國家大家的啦!這國家大家的啦!現在的台灣呢民主台灣跟過去那種威權的台灣不一樣啦!做官員大家可以做多久?"},{"start":9179.238,"end":9196.739,"text":"國會議員也不能說做多久 言所當然嘛不是這樣說 制度有缺漏 你本來就是要趕快去做一個補強啦好 謝謝好 謝謝 那下一位我們請翁曉林委員發言那翁曉林委員發言完畢之後休息五分鐘"},{"start":9208.28,"end":9215.927,"text":"主席好 在這邊先有請調查局陳局長還有國安局的副局長然後等會再請行政總署的處長先這樣"},{"start":9236.248,"end":9253.177,"text":"我想今天這個召委又召開要檢討在總統府國安會外交部等等有發生共諜滲透的案件那麼相關法制的檢討那麼很遺憾的就是國安會"},{"start":9255.083,"end":9270.615,"text":"秘書長再一次拒絕出席到司法法治委員會裡面來接受監督備詢那麼我想依照國安會組織法的規定第八條國安會組織法第八條的規定"},{"start":9271.676,"end":9287.616,"text":"國家安全會議及其所屬國家安全局應受立法院的監督國家安全局的組織另以法律定之我想這是非常清楚的所以請教副局長您認為在第八條裡面的規定國安會到底受不受到立法院的監督"},{"start":9289.287,"end":9313.072,"text":"只要有法治的規範當然就是要受到立法院的監督所以國安會議的吳釗燮秘書長今天他已經屢次拒絕來立法院接受備詢您認為他這樣的行為可取嗎我想這個是我們不介意評論我們尊重"},{"start":9315.065,"end":9329.269,"text":"但是基本上這是法條清清楚楚規定在那裡嘛就是第八條的規定國安會議及所屬國家安全局應受立法院的監督我再三的重申這條規定是現行的規定國安會議的秘書長"},{"start":9331.71,"end":9358.611,"text":"沒有任何的理由可以不來司法院可以不來我們立法院的司法法治委員會接受備詢所以呢他已經一而再再而三的拒絕去履行他法律上的義務這個基本上是已經是違法了這個監察院都應該要進行調查好那接下來呢我要這個詢問的就是這一次在"},{"start":9360.618,"end":9384.873,"text":"再次發生這個在總統府就是這個大家可以看這個關係圖那麼這次我們看到國安會的秘書長吳釗燮他的之前的這個助理還有像前立法院的院長立委以及這個立委許智傑等等他們的這個助理都涉及到有洩露國家機密那麼可能就是"},{"start":9386.754,"end":9392.537,"text":"潛藏在我們總統府裡面的一些間諜那麼針對這個問題我想當然現在檢調單位已經開始偵辦可是長官有沒有責任"},{"start":9405.268,"end":9419.434,"text":"請問國安局副局長我想這個案件的偵辦中涉及到偵查不公開的法治規範那到底是剛剛所詢的部分我們沒有評論"},{"start":9421.485,"end":9442.965,"text":"那麼請問調查局針對這個案子現在偵辦的情況除了就這個所列的像何仁傑等等這些所謂的助理們之外有針對他們的長官過去他們曾經服務過的長官有進行調查嗎現在目前案件都還在偵查中我無法在這邊跟委員說明"},{"start":9445.993,"end":9470.29,"text":"看起來就是你們基本上只是打蒼蠅不打老虎事實上像這種洩露國家機密的這種案件不可能說只有助理自己做長官竟然這麼多年都沒有發現都沒有察覺我個人是感到非常的不可思議我認為說其實檢調單位也應該要好好的去了解"},{"start":9474.233,"end":9479.921,"text":"督導他們的長官是不是也是其中的共犯那麼在這邊我要再問一個問題剛剛審發會委員說"},{"start":9488.481,"end":9504.126,"text":"我們在講到馬英九時代到底有沒有發生過在總統府內而且是掌管國安最高的首長他的親信曾經是有像現在這樣的間諜的情況在馬英九時代有過嗎"},{"start":9509.655,"end":9526.302,"text":"包委員這個可能要再查一下過往的一些案件的資料應該是沒有在馬英九時代有哪個國安會的秘書長然後曾經有發生過這樣的案子是說他的這個曾經他的這個助理是共諜"},{"start":9528.376,"end":9544.75,"text":"沒有吧至少新聞還有你們現在剪掉的紀錄應該是沒有這樣子的案子吧很多案件因為是機密的他其實在偵查跟審理這麼多年了都還是機密中間其實都沒有公開是來了我們再請那個司法院的這個刑事廳廳長"},{"start":9548.137,"end":9573.698,"text":"在蔡英文政府執政的期間大修國安五法然後增修了上數百條的條文可是事實上從今天司法院的報告裡面我們可以知道真的違反國安法的案件大概有多少件我剛剛有報告曾經有處理過的曾經處理過我們在現在有對判決的案件大概十幾二十件吧"},{"start":9575.061,"end":9596.096,"text":"超過 超過 就23件嘛 如果按照你的報告裡面最多就是23件嘛對 是 那個是在最高法院的部分是 由此可見 雖然我們現在的國安武法修了這麼多的條文但是真的可能會違反國安武法的案件數其實非常少"},{"start":9597.202,"end":9621.419,"text":"如果從這個角度來看到底是法律的問題還是執法的問題還是說是根本檢調單位你抓匪諜抓不利啊就是你沒有好好的這個也沒有能力或者是也沒有認真的去抓這些共諜所以本行的看法是認為說這樣子我們現在的國安無法其實已經立法相當嚴格了"},{"start":9622.935,"end":9628.181,"text":"如果說再要加鹽有它的必要性嗎 有它的實益嗎"},{"start":9630.021,"end":9656.26,"text":"這部分我可能就不評論了因為有關案件的多廣那才涉及到第一線偵辦人員對個案的處理了解 當然這個本席是要談就是說其實對於現在民進黨政府不斷的要再加嚴修法不管是兩岸人民關係條例或是國家安全法以及其他的相關的法規本席認為說基本上沒有那個實意"},{"start":9658.582,"end":9679.91,"text":"因為我們的法律已經定得很清楚了只是說執法上面的問題檢調到底有沒有好好的去真的去抓到這些可能洩漏國家機密的人跟法律本身的良善基本上是無關那麼我現在接下來要談的就是說事實上在這一次我們看到"},{"start":9680.85,"end":9697.697,"text":"大家的這個關心的焦點就在於說對於特殊查核辦法理念到底現在有哪一些人那麼他們是要接受特殊查核的那麼事實上特殊查核辦法的它的母法是什麼請任總 要不要請調查局這邊 國安"},{"start":9705.938,"end":9728.295,"text":"公務人員任用法那公務人員任用法主要規範對象是?公務人員所以他可以現在進一步的透過修法去規範所謂的約聘僱人員嗎?所以這個部分其實能夠有完整的法制是會比較完善"},{"start":9729.264,"end":9753.216,"text":"沒錯這就是我在講的我基本上我也認為說應該要在擴大特殊查核的範圍但是我們還是必須要符合法律的規定嘛不能夠違反法律優惠原則明明我們現在的特殊查核辦法裡面它的母法就是公務人員任用法而這個公務人員他是指的是狹義的公務員"},{"start":9755.197,"end":9779.175,"text":"他並不是指的是像刑法上廣義的公務員所以你現在你要修這個特殊查核辦法然後來去規範所有的機要、約聘、公務、幕僚、人員等等這個基本上是違反法律的原則的這樣的做法是不對的我想請那個法務部部長 請鄭部長您對這個議題的看法"},{"start":9786.061,"end":9804.918,"text":"這個要涉及到這個是一個自願性的一個行政院是就行政級首屬機關構來做一個做擴大特殊查核的一個範圍所以您的意思是說現在又是透過行政指導的方式然後呢請大家自己去申報去填嗎"},{"start":9806.314,"end":9832.06,"text":"就像是請這個落委會要求各個部會這個下令所有的公教人員都要填據結書的意思是一樣嗎他其實沒有法源依據但是透過行政指導或是其他的這個行政措施然後要求大家一定要填那委員都關心這個議題那不然是不是可以請我們來考試院來做一個推動的一個修法"},{"start":9833.185,"end":9847.997,"text":"考試院還有人事總署修這個辦法也跟人種有關是嗎這是考試院的主管考試院主管那考試院你們的看法咧可以透過修辦法來擴大對於"},{"start":9850.635,"end":9879.621,"text":"約聘過人員的管理嗎委員好 我是選區部法規司雷司長那這部分跟委員報告因為任用法如同剛剛委員您提到的它規範的是公務人員啦那就它授權的特查辦法現在目前的規範對象也是公務人員必須要受特殊查核那麼行政院它現在正在檢討這個針對非公務人員任用的部分要怎麼樣來處理那我們會根據行政院它最後檢討的結果呢"},{"start":9880.081,"end":9899.471,"text":"我們再以共同來研議看看需要再怎麼樣在法治上免於不足是的我這邊要提醒行政院如果現在要檢討的話可能要去看我們在我們的國家機密保護法理念或者是其他的相關法規有沒有適合的法源依據而不是"},{"start":9900.191,"end":9928.958,"text":"透過現代公務人員任用法裡面的他這個所授權制定的特殊查核辦法裡面去規定因為這完全不符合法的體系更何況本席認為其實最應該規範的就是在行政院還有總統府國安會等等這些重要的政務人員我看了這個相關的這個特殊查核這個一覽表裡面這當然因為主要是針對公務人員所有所有的重要的首長都不在裡面"},{"start":9930.018,"end":9952.633,"text":"然後規範都是秘書啦 或是什麼檢任職的這些事務官但是具有最核心掌握到那個國家機密的 像國安會秘書長 外交部部長 國安局局長就不在這個受到要去特殊查核的範圍裡面所以由此可知 這個整個法律的體系是出了很大的問題"},{"start":9954.724,"end":9973.942,"text":"如果說你掌握這麼重要國家機密的首長都可以不受特殊查核的這個相關的這個這樣子的條件的這個拘束的話那麼你更不用說他的這些助理們好那麼總之就是本行認為說其實"},{"start":9976.721,"end":9997.334,"text":"就現在你們要辦理的這個特查對象的範圍還是要回到原來我們的法律是怎麼規定的那麼如果說你們要擴大辦理你們有能力嗎如果說行政院硬是要你們之後你們現在是特殊查核是多少一千三百多人是不是請那個調查局"},{"start":9998.815,"end":10024.58,"text":"目前表列是1328那未來如果說看到你們上面講說這個可能會增加到兩三千人甚至還如果要把立法院當成這個提列辦理特查對象要高達6300多人你們調查局有這樣的人力物力嗎目前沒有 必須要增加人力還有預算你們這個調查的項目說實在話我也不知道你們是不是真的有能力去查核"},{"start":10025.799,"end":10047.179,"text":"看起來都是自願申報啊如果說有犯罪記錄這是很清楚的包委員他其實是兩個層次第一個就是說受查核的人他必須要自己誠實的去申報他必須要簽名然後針對受查的人他申報的這個內容他機關才會喊給我們調查局來做複查的意思"},{"start":10048.3,"end":10063.677,"text":"好 因為像有沒有犯罪記錄這個是一定要都知道就像我們就辦良民證一樣嘛 對不對那有沒有什麼定期去探討或是他的這個血親這個陰親是不是曾經有在大陸地區這都屬於自動申報但是他自動申報他說沒有你們還有能力去查核嗎"},{"start":10066.019,"end":10082.158,"text":"就沒有辦法嘛簡單來說是這樣而且我還要再強調一件事情你們特殊查核依照現在法律的規定是在任用之前就要進行查核可是如果說他已經任用了在他的就任的時間裡面你們有辦理定期查核嗎"},{"start":10082.711,"end":10106.794,"text":"目前的法規是沒有 目前法規是派任 出任 派任 還有調任這三個狀況的時候必須得 機關得 函請調查局做這個特殊查核那現在未來的檢討修改的方向就是說 希望就是說這個職位如果他在那邊待了很久那看是要一年或兩年或三年 我們必須要再重新做一次查核"},{"start":10107.134,"end":10125.279,"text":"所以我認為這個反而是你們先要做的不是只有在派任之前或是新任之前做查核而是未來要強化的是定期查核每一年或一年半兩年你至少要重新review一次我們現在是朝這個方向當然政務人員的部分尤其是掌握國家安全和重要機密的這些政務人員首長"},{"start":10136.522,"end":10163.982,"text":"一定要列入查核那我的看法是說你們去看看嘛國家機密法或是相關其他的情報工作法裡面應該也都有法源依據可以去規範現在行政院也是朝這個方向在指示在規劃謝謝委員支持OK那我這次我基本上我的看法不要再回到我們剛剛講公務人員任用法裡面去找那個不適合的法源依據以上謝謝"},{"start":10168.288,"end":10174.194,"text":"好 謝謝 那我們依據先前的宣告 我們休息五分鐘那五分鐘之後由吳斯耀委員進行詢問 謝謝"},{"start":10195.985,"end":10197.046,"text":"哈哈哈哈"},{"start":10219.07,"end":10219.11,"text":"我還好"},{"start":10259.553,"end":10272.36,"text":"鸡蛋"},{"start":10277.991,"end":10278.631,"text":"哈哈哈哈哈哈"},{"start":10683.629,"end":10709.479,"text":"好謝謝那我們繼續開會嚇我一跳我想說你不在我要先繼續休息好那我們下一位請吳思瑤委員發言謝謝主席有請政部長陳局長麻煩政部長國安局黃副局長副局長可能詮釋部等一下輪到您自己主動上來回答好謝謝"},{"start":10712.837,"end":10741.395,"text":"每個會期都是國安會期因應中國的滲透無所不在無孔不入所以我已經多次說每個會期都是國安會期而保密防諜人人有責no one is outsider今天我針對這個主題第二次part2來就教於各位了下一頁當然大家都非常關心共諜所以在立法院各個委員會的專案報告專題報告非常多"},{"start":10742.267,"end":10759.032,"text":"已經三次了這兩週我們司法法制中線招委也排了兩次那國防委員會也排了一次但我要說呢打共諜其實我們要的是什麼不是一再的把官員叫來這裡問話質詢我們要的是行動"},{"start":10764.793,"end":10789.86,"text":"立法院的行動是什麼就是著手去完治國安的法治健全就是要修國安法案你們都同意嗎否則每一次專案報告專案報告無限多的專案報告後來還是回到一個要修法不是嗎所以我希望我們下一次針對這個主題是可以具體明確的就修法的部分來做闡述下一頁"},{"start":10791.2,"end":10810.117,"text":"但是修法的部分非常遺憾最最最最低階最簡單最可行最無害的其實就是兩岸人民關係條例跟港澳關係條例裡頭立委附中的登載這真的是最可行啊"},{"start":10811.266,"end":10838.404,"text":"最簡便啦可是呢民進黨團的提案已經被擋了363次更不要講民進黨團已經提出國安實法的修法如果連最簡單最低門檻的附中登載在野黨都還要擋的話我不曉得國安的法案怎麼能夠走得下去下一頁"},{"start":10839.522,"end":10856.121,"text":"我不是危言聳聽喔上週內政委員會民進黨的召委張宏祿具體的排審了國家安全法國安法的九個版本目前為止都是民進黨的立委提案"},{"start":10857.332,"end":10873.903,"text":"所以大家口口聲聲都要國安都要防止共諜滲透可是在國安法的修法重中之重的國安法只有民進黨九位委員為了要期待行政院的版本"},{"start":10874.884,"end":10901.778,"text":"甚至那天在內政委員會我非常不解喔我還聽到在野黨的委員說未來要設國安的專業法庭呢這是一個綠色恐怖這是在搞戒嚴這完全是錯誤的理解這是汙名化吧我問一下政部長喔我看到一個數據好像從2016到2023年我們對於國安相關的法院判刑的平均刑度是多少"},{"start":10905.877,"end":10923.65,"text":"大概是六個月了所以我們在內政委員會審查的時候認為為什麼國安專業的法庭有其必要是因為要讓我們的檢警調有足夠充分的專業跟武器這就是為什麼要修國安法"},{"start":10924.571,"end":10945.746,"text":"可是在野黨的委員把他汙名化醜化為就是在搞戒嚴我們是在對抗中國耶所以要修國安法我希望下一次審查的時候有在野黨委員的版本我們才能夠真正的應驗在野黨的委員是關心國安的下一頁"},{"start":10947.216,"end":10972.491,"text":"而共諜的無所不在今天我看到國安局的五個面向的一個訊息的反饋跟彙整這對應於我上週質詢法務部的時候法務部所列舉的有科技掏空、借選滲透、發展組織利用軍人然後最新的有滲透黑幫、滲透國會等等"},{"start":10973.231,"end":10993.74,"text":"而對應於國安局副局長這邊今天你們的五大面向我想特別問一下你們的第一點就是發展武裝內應啊而且要設立政權接管中央委員會非常的駭人聽聞甚至要組成組集隊就你們的報告裡頭講的是要吸收軍人"},{"start":10994.5,"end":11020.777,"text":"但我要對應於上週四我站在這個地方我也提出我的詢問滲透黑幫是上週的媒體最新的爆料也就是說買通了黑幫在平時滋擾台灣的社會但是在戰時他們也會利用黑幫成為一個軍火的阻擊單位所以說滲透黑幫跟你們今天的發展武裝內應是不是有相關"},{"start":11021.838,"end":11039.154,"text":"是跟委員報告這是我們經過國安團隊的一個情搜裡面彙整出來的一個他的一個手法的其中要項之一這也是跟黑幫有絕對的關聯性所以我是要指證你們因為我看到你們的報告寫的武裝內應好像只有講到軍人"},{"start":11041.481,"end":11065.611,"text":"對不對 事實上黑幫是有而且也是重要的一個滲透的管道嘛我想那這樣我們的理解就更全面也更正確了好 謝謝 下一頁共諜在國會喔其實是不分黨派都有我要再一次的來闢謠在野黨的委員一直在說全部都是綠營才有共諜是這樣嗎"},{"start":11067.813,"end":11086.664,"text":"你們哪一位可以很簡要的回答一下這段時間在共諜事件在國會有多少個案子啊是不是各黨都有啊好幾個案子都已經是被判很清楚是有刑責的部長你可以簡要回應嗎在共諜在國會"},{"start":11089.452,"end":11117.423,"text":"這就是一個很簡單就講事實嘛各黨都有嘛這個委員有提供資料非常清楚嘛我這裡整理出來的五個案子三個案子是國民黨一個案子是民眾黨一個案子是民進黨而民進黨是高規格的第一時間移送查辦開除我們是最嚴格的在自我的提防跟要求反觀在野黨只會造謠"},{"start":11118.763,"end":11136.357,"text":"他們有這樣子的具體的行動嗎更何況在野黨的委員的助理們滲透國會被中共買通都是具體被判刑的這是事實俱在啊所以說國會有沒有內控的機制 下一頁"},{"start":11138.547,"end":11164.975,"text":"公部門現在有一般查核跟特殊查核是調查局的業務目前在國會並沒有任何查核跟拒絕的機制拒絕應該是全序部在做的那我剛剛也利用之前我聽的片段因為我還有另外的會議好像調查局陳局長有說到下一頁您建議或者是鼓勵或是尊重立法院是不是要訂定自己的特查辦法是"},{"start":11166.263,"end":11181.933,"text":"但如果立法院定了 那是誰來執行定了以後就我們調查局來執行還是嗎你們只有兩個人力目前是只有兩個專責人力我整理出來的對應於你們今天的報告目前已經進行了特查的職位是1328個"},{"start":11184.435,"end":11212.273,"text":"然後你們研議要擴大因為現在我們要把網做大 把網做得更密要增加一千零八位 對不對只要涉密不是只等而來分 是它涉密的這個機會而且要強化增加它的查核的頻率 我都支持所以增加下來是要查核的對象有兩千三百三十六個我就問您喔兩千三百三十六個擴大 即便是擴大特查有沒有包含"},{"start":11213.474,"end":11239.67,"text":"當然不會包含立法院的立委我們不是公務人員嘛也不會包含國會助理因為他們不是公務人員任用法的適用的對象但是國會的職員工有沒有在裡面如果是依照公務人員任用法國會的秘書長法治局長好 那如果議事處長或是我們所有的這個對不起 有領這個公務人員任用的"},{"start":11240.751,"end":11264.087,"text":"有沒有在我們的特查辦法不管是before或是after有沒有納在裡面目前這1328都沒有含立法院因為他們也是公務員啊所以要納入嘛所以你們增加的1008位未來查核要增加到2336個裡面是不是應當要包含立法院的"},{"start":11265.707,"end":11282.894,"text":"領公務員 是的 應該是的 最多 非常多所以你們的2336個 就我的理解 目前沒有納入耶要納入 必須納入 國安不能缺一角 漏洞不能在國會"},{"start":11284.415,"end":11310.531,"text":"但是如果要擴大反而你們說如果要納入國會助理這個是另外一個事情國會助理不是領公務人員的薪水就說不是公務人員擁有法規範的對象所以你們有一個6300個的這個數字是有問題的耶因為國會助理不應當是你們現在現行法規裡有可以特查的對象除非我們自己設一個特查辦法對不對除非但是這個有很多的討論"},{"start":11312.085,"end":11331.665,"text":"所以說尊重立法院要不要訂特查辦法但未來執行還是調查局人力物力足不足夠這需要思考第二現在的法治裡頭特查辦法應當擴大到立法院的職員工就應當依循應當要納入至於後續你們只有兩個人力啊"},{"start":11332.886,"end":11341.776,"text":"希望未來審查年度預算的時候 預算不會再被為難否則要求你們做更多 做更好預算員不給你們 經費不給你們怎麼防共諜 怎麼打擊國安啊下一個"},{"start":11347.748,"end":11371.308,"text":"我很快的說民進黨團會先行民進黨團我們已經針對附中登載的部分我們黨團有高度的共識我們會主動用我們黨團的內規因為在立法院推不動兩岸人民關係條例要立法要修法推不動被擋了363次民進黨團我們會優先針對民進黨團所有的立委跟助理我們會用"},{"start":11372.569,"end":11384.493,"text":"拒絕的方式我們希望要求主動揭露附中的資訊以達到事前報備事後報告民進黨團先行我們要凸顯這個國會指揮黨國安法案連附中登載這麼輕易能做的事情都不願意做好我最後花一點點時間來下一頁"},{"start":11400.809,"end":11414.207,"text":"今天我要今天的议程里头我特别要跟主席做一下报告上周韩国瑜院长用一个韩文在院会宣告说来援引宪法67条跟大法官释字461号"},{"start":11415.851,"end":11432.283,"text":"那特別為我們的立法院秘書長來請了一個永久的免死金牌我認為立法院如果不落實自我的克責強化立法院的自我的治理的話我們沒有資格去要求別人今天的會議下一頁下一頁"},{"start":11435.276,"end":11453.372,"text":"下一頁我都跳過就國安會也好就總統府的秘書長也好我就引用同樣韓國瑜院長週五院會的宣告同樣用憲法六十七條跟大法官四六一號只要是司法監察"},{"start":11454.733,"end":11475.793,"text":"以及考試院的秘書長都不移到立法院 這是憲政慣例馬英九這樣說過 王金平前院長這樣說過我就用韓國瑜院長同樣的一個式字來講那為什麼我們的召委一再的要求別人 這已經違反大法官解釋喔"},{"start":11476.894,"end":11503.484,"text":"下一頁金普聰擔任國安會秘書長的時候他也說除了預算案跟法律案國安會到立法院被詢是破壞憲政體制這也是回歸4461號的解釋換言之4461號告訴我們除了法律案跟預算案其他的不應當邀請國安會秘書長總統府秘書長來到立法院但是我回到前面"},{"start":11506.161,"end":11525.137,"text":"立法院的部分前面因為我們要國會自律跟自我克責我們不在大法官釋字461號所說的三院當中所以大法官並沒有說立法院的秘書長不應當來備詢我看最後一頁那個表格前一頁"},{"start":11526.684,"end":11548.189,"text":"國安會到國會備詢的記錄都以預算跟法律相關議案為主以王金平院長從第五屆到第七屆邀請的次數這麼多次缺席的次數也很多 為什麼因為當初的國安會就用憲法的主張除了預算案跟法律案秘書長是不需要來備詢的"},{"start":11549.449,"end":11573.72,"text":"如果回到憲法這就是過去國民黨作為國會龍頭的時候也是這樣來做但是現在似乎立法院的規則亂了套只有立法院的秘書長可以說不來就不來只有立法院的韓國瑜院長可以一再的曲解憲法的精神跟扭曲大法官釋字的精神然後要求別人放過自己"},{"start":11574.72,"end":11595.8,"text":"我認為國會的自律跟國會的克責我們在探討非常多立法院對於秘書長國會簽件的事務也好我們立法院要防共諜這些剛剛講立法院要自己定查核辦法立法院的特查辦法如果秘書長不來備詢請問我們跟誰討論立法院的特查辦法怎麼定"},{"start":11597.034,"end":11616.086,"text":"所以說不要言以律己寬以待人我對於大家奉公守法我們繼續努力防共連滲透精進完治所有的法治作業後續民進黨團的所有的國安法案大家一起繼續努力好 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員那下一位我們請張祺凱委員發言"},{"start":11639.594,"end":11651.677,"text":"請鎮部長叫陳局長麻煩鎮部長陳局長委員好剛才吳思堯委員一直在說我們這次是國安會期嘛國安會期最近民進黨的這個共諜案連環報敵人就在本能寺啊那吳思堯講得這麼重要保證叫囚定"},{"start":11669.417,"end":11693.317,"text":"你們有沒有像在辦那個連署案一樣有沒有去大搜索 大搜押共諜案應該比 佛定共諜案跟這個死人連署哪一個比較重 罪哪一個比較重都很重要的案件都很重要 行者差很多嘛 對不對共諜案如果涉國安法 歸你共諜案"},{"start":11699.425,"end":11714.317,"text":"七年 七年對不對 如果是發展組織 七年以上啊 七年以上 對啊課長文書勒 課長是五年以下一個重罪一個輕罪啊 你們有辦嗎你們有共諜案連環報報這麼多話 這麼簡單我問你你們有傳訊游錫坤 有傳訊吳釗燮有傳釋 傳訊你與諜嗎"},{"start":11726.175,"end":11752.431,"text":"你們有去大搜索嗎?有去那邊加或者是總統府、國安局、國安會或者是外交部有押嗎?有押任何一個人嗎?偵查不公開,我跟委員報告反正這是個案的問題,我沒辦法去做一個回答這麼多就是通案的,不是一個案喔!現在不是有羈押的,羈押的不少人了嗎?有羈押的,像吳尚宇等的,有被羈押了嗎?那這些老闆還有住所,沒有一個有被傳嗎?"},{"start":11754.142,"end":11768.88,"text":"這個我沒辦法去回答這個問題完全這個這個案件依照案件的一個證據收證的程度我相信檢察官他會做整個一個案件的一個偵查這個計畫所以我沒辦法幫你回答這個問題你很負責任的講好啦吳釗燮好了我沒辦法"},{"start":11770.702,"end":11791.581,"text":"吳釗燮涉及的 來 來 等一下有沒有去他家裡搜索過 等一下有沒有去外交部搜索過我沒辦法去干涉指揮檢察官去要搜索哪個地點 要搜索哪個對象那這是一個個案的一個問題這麼多就是一個通案喔 而且你現在在這不是通案啦 這是個案啦五個 我問你這五個 我問你 來來 保定來 我問你"},{"start":11792.702,"end":11812.992,"text":"那五個案五個案子你有任何去搜索任何人的這涉案的這些人的家裡我想這個檢察認為案件有必要的話而且不是檢察說哪一個就說哪一個法院還要再法官還要再審核嘛那我想這個大家都已經大家都清楚的事情嘛這個也不是我檢我當部長我沒辦法去"},{"start":11813.911,"end":11835.058,"text":"去指示檢查說你要收哪一個哪一個你要辦哪一個我沒辦法去干涉介入指導的個案的一個偵辦嘛但是我想說共諜案當然我們要嚴辦這是一個通案但是我們講是哪個個案你要辦到誰對啊你嚴辦你看這些相關的人都在外面趴趴走啊也沒有看到你辦啊還有嚴辦的話不然我們怎麼會收押呢這個不認為積壓的必須要就收押了嘛你看國民黨這樣罵髒話罵髒話一關一關一關起來"},{"start":11839.259,"end":11847.167,"text":"結果你看這些人有辦嗎 民眾會有判斷的啦 為什麼會出現 辦男不辦女 辦小不辦大市委議長有24萬人上街頭 你知道他們在抗議什麼抗議的訴求 主要訴求是什麼 20萬人上了街頭"},{"start":11864.192,"end":11891.101,"text":"那天主要的抗議的訴求是什麼?人民為什麼怒火?我相信上場都有他自己的想法啦這個訴求每個...你知道嗎?你知道嗎?你都不重視民意嗎?有不同的訴求我沒有去做這樣的特別去研究這些那一天主要啊反對獨裁的最重要那一天最熱的就是司法不公啦我給你看民調不是只有人民用腳這個表態那麼多人出來怒火看看最新民調"},{"start":11894.111,"end":11907.689,"text":"57.9%的民眾認為政治力介入了檢調機關的辦案57.6%認為政治力介入了司法案件59.3%認為政府譴責性辦案"},{"start":11911.502,"end":11927.28,"text":"所以委員你也不要叫我說要去叫起來辦哪一個人啦我認為這個就不是吧你看了我們就覺得很沒有面子柏定你看了這三個民調你就是叫我說你要辦哪一個辦哪一個辦哪一個我認為這個是我沒有叫你辦哪一個我叫你通案"},{"start":11928.061,"end":11943.37,"text":"你在辦這個死人連署的時候你這麼大力 你在大搜手大搜押我這邊沒有看到你該有的動作這兩個都是通 兩個這麼多這麼多案子啊不要保證我現在問你啦不是給他二十五萬人上街啦你看到這三個民調你覺得臉上很無光嗎愧對你的職責嗎你是發不保證欸這民調你不覺得"},{"start":11955.163,"end":11983.473,"text":"檢調那麼辛苦在捍衛我們人權跟法治給個人民一下對你們的觀感是這樣子你說委員檢調可以我部長怎麼去介入呢不是介入你領導你當法務部長你看到這個沒有難過嗎你沒有做一些改革嗎沒有反省嗎那你認為是檢調就要偵辦這些犯罪難道是還要再分不同的這些這個可以辦那個不應該辦他沒有這種事情反正有涉及犯罪都該要辦嘛"},{"start":11988.062,"end":12002.249,"text":"59.3%認為你正譜就是選擇性辦案這個民調是當然可以檢討啦這美麗島電子報啊這兩個禮拜最熱門的新聞耶最重要是你到底從裡面得到一些反省跟檢討什麼叫做選擇性辦案"},{"start":12006.96,"end":12018.144,"text":"我們沒有選擇性辦案 凡是有涉及犯罪性...人民就是這樣認為嘛 對不對那這個問題記不具體政治力有沒有介入檢調機關辦案這個題目還不夠清楚嗎好 來 我們繼續來談一個你這段時間在辦的啊死亡連署我怎麼說"},{"start":12032.475,"end":12060.862,"text":"跟這個共諜案比起來一個大一個小第二個來看一段話這是以前做法官的時候的李進勇現在中選會主委李進勇說的他說啦雖然我有偽造文書但是你們不要擔心因為沒有實質傷害所以我不會有罪這個就是這段時間你們在大搜手在大搜押這些往生者幽靈靈屬的時候很多人在提醒你的大炮打學長輕罪"},{"start":12063.015,"end":12064.778,"text":"你看李靖遠為什麼這樣講李靖遠為什麼這樣講他沒產生什麼實質上的傷害"},{"start":12074.644,"end":12097.239,"text":"這個死亡連署的這種 就像我講說死人不會從你爬出來再做一個連署啦那我是認為啦 我認為環自由社體犯罪就該辦所以大院的委員該辦是不是有個比例原則 法治國基本的比例原則是不是被你破壞了這嚴重違反 違反侵蝕民主政治的基石所以這個要原辦"},{"start":12098.5,"end":12113.268,"text":"我想這個大院委員都是有志一統就是把那個那個那個...你是發布法定啦講法不要破壞法治沒別人來來來補定我問你一下你現在用的是第200刑法...委員你的意思是叫我不要再去叫檢查說圍繞文書都不要辦嗎是不是這樣"},{"start":12114.088,"end":12141.925,"text":"你一直所有犯罪都辦啊可是你大小總有分啊現在人民為什麼有那麼多說你是選擇性辦案你共諜案也不辦大的案子不辦共諜怎麼辦如果沒有不辦那怎麼可能會被收押呢而且辦案都不分黨派嘛你一直繞在那個繞在那幾個五個案子對不對押了四個人一個人二十萬交保出去人民在笑你們的人民在笑我們的司法是共諜案啊比這個幽靈林署還要輕欸"},{"start":12144.073,"end":12153.54,"text":"更重要來 萬孟寧 你是 萬孟寧你用刑法第210條 偽造文書版嘛 對不對他的要件是什麼偽造文書要成立的要件是什麼偽造編造他人之私生什麼 損害於什麼損害於公眾跟個人好 那請問 請問剛才 李進勇想要說你再看一次李進勇講的話"},{"start":12174.466,"end":12197.44,"text":"他偽造文書,他沒有私...你不要拿李靜雄,李部長,李委員,那個主委,他當時這個背景我不清楚這1985年,你說1985年4月的一個發言,我不曉得是哪個個案,這個我不清楚要去把李靜雄抓回來關是不是?大搜搜他,大搜押他嗎?這我沒有辦法對一個我不清楚的個案表示任何意見"},{"start":12199.008,"end":12202.218,"text":"如果就他用的這個刑法第210條要損害於公眾跟個人嘛"},{"start":12206.977,"end":12225.62,"text":"那你連署你的互義證如果連署沒有損害公眾跟他人嗎這個嚴重影響 嚴重侵蝕民主政治的基石真的選舉可以去用作票做假嗎我想全民是沒辦法去接受的先不要講輕罪跟重罪來來來 我問你一個重點來來來你的連署要不要經過互義證系統的這個檢核會不會塞掉"},{"start":12236.294,"end":12247.162,"text":"你連署完之後包括罷免吳思瑤的這些人他第一個拿到送到中選會要做什麼違照文書本來就是集成犯了嘛你只要違照他們的署押這個當然就是發生損害了嘛你的護意證系統會剔除掉嘛對不對有損害嗎"},{"start":12256.195,"end":12278.335,"text":"怎麼會沒損害 假冒假冒了你的名字去 我想這個孫損害這個事只要圍繞他人的鼠丫一層就是會出生損害啦連部長你問一下幕僚亂講法律怎麼這樣規定的你自身損害他的那個你問一下幕僚這樣會不好意思會讓人家笑話 張偉不要打插話不是 我怕部長讓人家笑話啦"},{"start":12279.619,"end":12292.409,"text":"副長在這邊是全民直播喔 全民都在看喔我剛剛跟你講第一個我拿了李靖榮的案例給你看第二個我是就法論法跟你講刑法第210條更重要的我們的中選會我們的護意證系統是要篩選的你如果有死人連署篩選就剔除了嘛對不對有對連署發生影響嗎這個案子會成立嗎例如說吳斯堯那邊吳斯堯那邊的如果有死亡連署你後來會照這還有各自法的問題嘛"},{"start":12308.951,"end":12312.013,"text":"什麼司法問題你救法論法你這個問題要不要去補救這個會不會是這個案本來就是我從民調還有20萬人上街頭一直跟你講到法律的這個問題連民進黨啊民進黨的人都高喊林黛嬅說政治干預了司法司法又去干預了這個初選然後呢民進黨政府下指導旗司法介入"},{"start":12340.438,"end":12359.884,"text":"班班可考虎藻斑斑 你看你如果說民進黨的辭職令說國民黨這個事情是系統性的組織犯罪是系統性的組織犯罪嗎你目前去搜索用的是什麼罪你壓人用什麼 有用系統性的組織犯罪嗎 有沒有"},{"start":12363.604,"end":12387.953,"text":"這個案件是檢查在偵辦中會涉及到其他的一個犯罪我想這個我沒辦法去就個案的隊去做一個報告你那麼多案子那是不是林丘昌講的系統性的組織犯罪我問你一個最明確的國民眾正在做直播說禮拜三啊現在搜索過台北市黨部新北市黨部台南市黨部禮拜三要去搜索大搜索國民黨"},{"start":12390.442,"end":12412.482,"text":"這個是一個個案有沒有看到會搜索那個地點那個檢察會申請法院來核發這是另狀主義的嘛如果說可不可以說有沒有必要性這個不是檢察說了就直接有辦法去執行的這還要經過法院的一個審的開法院開搜索票我們依照法院開的說法去做執行的嘛"},{"start":12414.175,"end":12437.916,"text":"而且司法法院本就是獨立的嘛那怎麼會司法介入呢那個政治介入呢 黨政黨介入呢所以民眾從民調裡面20萬人的上街頭吶喊還有民眾的民調的對你們的提醒跟警示你完全都沒有感覺你都沒有覺得說你們要靠這一做個檢討要去反省嗎我用一個最具體的做個總結好了包括調查局局長跟部長"},{"start":12440.12,"end":12456.246,"text":"那麼多的民眾說你們 選擇性辦案我聽得懂嗎 到目前為止中選會告發了他告發了國民黨跟國民黨去罷免民進黨的民進黨去罷免國民黨 對不對我聽兩百分 確定 五比零嘛 對不對"},{"start":12457.762,"end":12486.005,"text":"你說 你說你們會證明你們不會選擇性辦案都辦啊 委員沒有注意到新聞對啦 五比零嘛 五比零的先不辦嘛不要啊 現在多少都辦了 台中的部分你可能沒有注意到新聞都辦現在幾比幾幾比幾具體我現在手上11比1啦 對不對沒有沒有民進黨現在辦了 基隆還辦哪裡不止不止不止台中兩個是不是然後基隆 你看你有收手嗎"},{"start":12489.181,"end":12508.689,"text":"基隆你有搜索嗎不是啊 搜索是為了要保全證據對啊 像國民黨那些十幾個地方都被你搜索民進黨的沒有搜索 用約談的方式回來一兩個小時還請回所以人民才會說你譴責性辦案嘛我想具體的個案的內容我沒辦法跟你說明但是都辦了"},{"start":12514.783,"end":12533.942,"text":"人民的眼睛是血亮的不要輕忽不要看低台灣人民的水準已經那麼清楚公不公正人民會做判斷我已經跟你講了11比2上次5比0然後你辦國民黨是大收手大收押再這樣繼續下去我跟你講民調還會繼續再掉"},{"start":12535.543,"end":12564.102,"text":"你們的歷史定會出很大問題你們對尤其所有的檢調檢調人員嗎我想在這個過程裡面檢察官跟調查官都是依法依法這個來公正的執法這個我們非常非常有信心這個委員謝謝委員的思法有他的天平啦人民心中也有一把尺啦人民隨時在幫你們打分數啦希望下次你們分數可以升高我最後做一個總結啦請一起保定 決定我一直捍衛司法的正義不要再受到任何政治的干預"},{"start":12567.322,"end":12584.289,"text":"維護司法公平的這個中立不要為特定的政黨服務嚴守司法的分際不枉法不濫權人民心中有一把尺人民眼睛也是雪亮的大家都盯著你們在看期待你們去經得起考驗了謝謝"},{"start":12589.086,"end":12614.526,"text":"謝謝 那我們先處理會議時間 上午會議時間持續進行到所有登記法院委員群大家結束為止部長 我要給你報告 你為什麼剛剛會插嘴因為部長剛剛講錯 因為210條的偽造文書還有217條的偽造一張英文數押它還要有一個足深屬害公眾或他人 它是構成要鑑定的部分 不是偽造就構成犯罪"},{"start":12615.994,"end":12617.856,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我先請部長 保護部長 謝謝麻煩部長"},{"start":12640.743,"end":12658.809,"text":"好 部長我想跟你討論一下關於人民有一個眼睛 人民有一把尺剛剛那個張啟凱委員的質詢我有一些非常非常初級的法律見解跟認識想要跟部長討論其實事實上之前到底是不是組織犯罪這件事情當然我知道你們還在偵查中我們就不針對個案去討論"},{"start":12660.35,"end":12670.719,"text":"但是我印象中如果沒有記錯的話呢國民黨的大佬趙少康他當時都還說抄一下也還好嘛那在高雄罷免許志杰委員那個發起人還是領銜人喔他是一個從香港移民到台灣來的一個中國人那他就說這個黨呢有義務把這個名單給黨員這樣抄然後黨員也要服從黨這個他說這個也很正常這第二個案例了第三個案例基隆"},{"start":12685.953,"end":12705.145,"text":"的張淵祥他也承認他們自己承認犯案所以依照我剛剛講這三個慣例如果我們用小學生等級的理解就是老師某某某作弊這樣然後某某某也承認說對我有作弊那身為老師我們針對這個作弊的個案去進行調查這應該是合理的所謂在法務部的見解對不對"},{"start":12706.991,"end":12728.176,"text":"反正我們的態度就是有涉及到犯罪那就要辦了我想剛才文有提到的這些個別的事案我想檢察機關都在偵辦中我們就不針對個案討論但是我的法理的理解就是說老師班上有同學作弊同學也承認說老師我有作弊同學就趕快自己承認覺得這樣罪會輕一點可能有各種可能"},{"start":12730.777,"end":12747.878,"text":"所以老師就進行調查這是對的嘛這是老師應該做的事情嘛對班上其他同學應該也比較公平對不對如果我們一起再進行這個考試是是嘛我的理解是這樣那所以如果用這個理解來看呢我認為剛剛張祺凱委員有非常多質詢的內容我認為有非常大的問題第一個我也想要請教部長"},{"start":12748.899,"end":12776.41,"text":"他剛剛特別點名吳釗燮或者是游錫堃院長他們這些人好像他認為也應該要去發動大規模的搜索甚至跑去他家跟辦公室但是部長我想跟你討論我的見解是這樣這些人基本上他是被害人那除非這些被抓出來的共諜他就直接指控說他是受游院長假設他真的這樣說我是受到游院長所指使叫我去執行這個共諜任務假設我們有聽到這樣的論述我們才去做後續的動作對不對是"},{"start":12777.33,"end":12792.138,"text":"所以對我來說不管是吳釗燮部長或是游院長他們在這個共諜案中應該都是算不知情的被害人如果你們現在掌握證據是這樣那我們就沒有理由去對他進行大規模搜索嘛這個不合理嗎這個各位報告我想"},{"start":12793.958,"end":12816.504,"text":"這個我想檢察官會做一個強加的調查但是我們沒辦法去說指定你要對他說什麼你要對他查辦我想對這個我是管理那個政策跟法案的所以我沒辦法就個案表示任何意見個案是由承辦檢控再做一個處理嘛那我怎麼去知道說委員跟我講說你要辦哪一個我就說你要去辦哪一個你要去說哪一個就說哪一個這個變成是我是介入了"},{"start":12819.225,"end":12840.622,"text":"變成是由這個去介入政治力去介入到個案的一個偵辦我認為要給檢查一個純淨的一個辦案的一個空間我想我們要求檢查就是說你要嚴正公正的客觀公正的執法就是勿枉勿重反正涉及犯罪就要辦嘛那剛才就是違照文書那一部分怎麼沒有俗稱水災過程"},{"start":12841.883,"end":12867.241,"text":"這個雖然是學委會可以剔除 但是這個是影響到學委會對這些管理的一個正確性的一個問題嘛所以我想這個大概法律上 那是個案的話 個案正辦嘛對 沒錯 這個在您的職權上確實是這樣不過我來幫您補充一下相關的新聞部長聽一下我講的對不對吳尚宇 邱士源 然後黃曲榮 還有盛楚茵其實都已經有被收押了嘛 對不對是好 我們就不就個案來討論"},{"start":12868.622,"end":12872.227,"text":"盛楚瑩沒有,就是吳尚宇、邱士元還有何仁杰我認為這就不是所謂的辦藍不辦綠或是辦綠不辦藍基本上就是如同剛剛張祺凱委員說的不分政黨嘛,我們該辦就辦,對不對?"},{"start":12885.383,"end":12907.175,"text":"所以我想說反正涉及到共諜我們就辦嘛那我想這剛才有提到就是不分黨派然後我們就是說有裡面他僱傭的人員是那他老闆每個都要辦嗎我想這個就是要個案的做一個認定說不定他是被害人說不定他也是共犯之一嘛好那我的理解這個個案的不同嘛所以我們沒有辦法講說沒有說他聘用的人員是有共諜的話那每個難道都要辦嗎"},{"start":12909.336,"end":12929.387,"text":"我想這個看證據吧所以我可以這麼說好不好就是案件沒有分大小其實我剛剛一直在聽張祺凱委員說這個比例原則比例原則啊這個案件分大小可是部長我很好奇就你們法務的見解案件真的可以分大小嗎案件沒有分大小啦反正涉及到犯罪就要辦嘛"},{"start":12930.066,"end":12958.642,"text":"那我想當檢察官的難道這個小號我不辦 這個單我才辦或者說我能力 我想要把子辦小號 我不辦大號我想這個案件我們檢察官沒有選擇要辦哪個案的一個特權這個案件本來就是輪分的嘛而且子分或輪分 它案件分案都有一定的一個程序嘛所以檢察官只要228條認為有告訴告發或其他行為只有犯罪先檢然後就要啟動偵辦的一個程序嘛"},{"start":12958.982,"end":12966.77,"text":"所以再加上我剛剛舉的那些例子吳尚宇 邱氏 黃許榮這些基本上人不分藍綠啦所以我的邏輯應該是這樣如果說政治有介入的話那這個案件我想不管哪個黨派政治有介入的話那這個黨派"},{"start":12972.369,"end":12993.93,"text":"他有顧慮他就不辦這個就要辦我想沒有反正是我們是不分勿晚勿中又涉及到這些的不法的那當然都要辦嘛好那最後一個問題其實我剛聽到也是頭皮發麻這樣他說這個五年以下跟七年以下就是分七年偽造文書跟這個五年以下他認為這個是輕罪又是回到的案件不分大小可是我看刑法276過失"},{"start":12995.331,"end":13014.532,"text":"過失致死也是五年以下那難道我們要用這個邏輯就看他是重還是輕嗎所以我覺得這個邏輯確實也是怪怪的啦我想要聽一下部長您的見解對而且說五年以下幾年以下那個個案的情況是不一樣個案的情形是不一樣就像竊盜罪五年以下就偷一支筆跟偷了"},{"start":13016.172,"end":13032.032,"text":"拖了很多東西價值連城的東西都是五年以下但是他那個處理的一個給他落價的一個後來的刑法的評價兩省市會不一樣的嘛那我也不能講說拖乾筆我就不辦啊我只拖價值連城的一些的珍貴的珠寶"},{"start":13032.712,"end":13052.374,"text":"或者說其他的東西我想檢察官不應該有這種的差別性勿妄勿重公正執法好 謝謝部長剛剛用我們一般人可以聽懂的話來回應為什麼這麼說因為剛剛張祺凱委員甚至我認為我和李懷疑他剛剛在公開造謠剛剛那個照片他說那是25萬人可是我們看台北市警察局就是所謂的"},{"start":13053.415,"end":13072.292,"text":"蔣萬安市長他們所主導的警察局說當天大概只有6萬到7萬人我覺得這個數字也是相當的令人懷疑到底是25萬還是6萬到底那份民調所代表的民意或者是他們所想像中人民看見什麼我覺得今天我也幫忙問了這些問題謝謝部長的示意謝謝部長請回那接下來我可以問回我要問的謝謝我要請那個國安局謝謝"},{"start":13084.276,"end":13096.586,"text":"其實今天我想問的很多問題大概很多委員也都說了不過我覺得有幾個面向的問題想要跟您來討論是不是在後續修法的時候我們可以怎麼樣來進行我們直接剪到下一頁因為在陸委會相關的記者會當中提到參加組織的人不再相關的"},{"start":13103.691,"end":13127.93,"text":"法规的规范范围里面所以如果我们来盘点上个礼拜在另外一个委员会也有进行相关的询答在人员的部分跟行为的部分确实现在在法规上是有不足的地方需要进行后续修法当然我知道你们都说尊重立法院尊重立法委员对不对但是我要提的是当我们进行修法之后我认为对行政机关最困难其实是执行面"},{"start":13128.71,"end":13151.389,"text":"就是如何去執行這些法規範然後如何讓所有的相關工作人員在相關的案件當中他們真的可以做到相關的執行然後甚至是違法的行為可以被偵查然後呢在偵查的時候很多機密的資料不要在無止境的外洩或者是呢要有有效的犯意嚇阻機制我覺得這件事情應該會是你們後續的困難你自己怎麼看是"},{"start":13154.631,"end":13170.118,"text":"謝謝委員指導我想這個修國安法或者是其他國安法字面的部分大概相關選者不會都會邀請我們國安局去參加那我們國安局都會表達意見只要能補這個國安的漏洞我們都贊成我們都非常樂意來修這個法"},{"start":13173.081,"end":13195.548,"text":"對但是我剛講你們還要提出你們在後續工作量能上需要的資源因為修完法之後我們常常看到很多修完法之後其實在執行層面是困難的那我也很開心聽到你說在相關修法會議當中國安局都有參與那我覺得要拜託國安局這邊就更務實的提出你們所需要的資源跟人力好嗎或者是相關預算好不好是"},{"start":13195.728,"end":13214.497,"text":"好 謝謝那我們後續也會持續關心那我們接下來看一下其實最近有這個相關的新聞的案例我想你都非常清楚一個是總統府憲兵隊那他們的做法我就不再細說但是我們看到他們說他們得到的不罰所得大概算出來是一百八十四萬可是我要說出賣的國家利益絕對遠超於這個對不對"},{"start":13216.678,"end":13245.372,"text":"遠超過這184萬你自己怎麼看當然這個出賣國家這個他的一個所得國家的損失實在是無法以那個這個量化的金錢來衡量也因為金錢無法量化但是對於整體國家安全人民所造成的擔心或者是人民的疑慮我認為確實不管是在我剛說修法或是後續執行那我們來看一下這兩天也有周刊家在講到中國透過親共的台灣黑幫分子這些事情我相信你們國安局"},{"start":13245.952,"end":13265.84,"text":"應該也都有掌握對不對是我們會透過國安團隊情報團隊收集相關的國安的有關的情報經過我們的會診分析這個確實我們也會掌握好那我來看下一張所以這就是你們提供給我們這個相關的報告這個表格是對的對不對你們所提供的"},{"start":13267.318,"end":13295.343,"text":"中共五大滲透管道及四大手法是 這個我們也有在委員會的報告裡面都有把它整理出來好 那我自己看到這些資料其實如同剛剛司藥委員說的我覺得非常的驚悚驚悚的意思就是說其實你們應該都掌握了這些訊息不管是在最近或者是幾個共點案的偵辦當中或者是陸陸續續收集這些資料我自己看到這些資料如果我們要跟國人討論這件事情我覺得有幾個面向我想要提供給國安局做參考第一個就是"},{"start":13295.723,"end":13310.708,"text":"中共如此無往無恐不入的滲透行為而且我必須要說他非常廣泛而且他試著想要讓這些事情是有效的在國安沒有看見的角落那我們國安局或是整體的行政機關如何建立廣泛"},{"start":13311.368,"end":13327.707,"text":"足夠而且有效的預防國家機密外洩的保護措施這是第一個第二個如果國家機密一旦洩露或者是危害國家的安全的行為發生的時候如何精準又快速的查緝避免損壞的情形擴大這是第二個"},{"start":13328.248,"end":13339.732,"text":"第三個面對中共這麼多元的滲透行為行政機關有沒有機會提供給我們一般人行為指引讓民眾不要不小心踩到這個紅線為什麼我剛要問你這麼多事情所以我很開心聽到你們說國安局有參與相關會議"},{"start":13345.174,"end":13366.814,"text":"也就是說在預防的部分事先預防還有當事情發生的查緝或者是在那之前對我們一般小老百姓來說對一般公民來說什麼樣的行為是可以做什麼樣的行為是真的不小心會踩到紅線我認為我們需要積極討論這個事情尤其是針對第三點我們有沒有機會提供給民眾一個行為指引"},{"start":13369.844,"end":13390.423,"text":"這個任何一個滲透的方法 或者是它的樣態 待會我們都會公佈在我們的公開的網站裡面 民眾都可以上去來瀏覽我們也會將這個手法樣態 透過不同的一個場合 包括發布的一個媒體 讓告知民眾 也是在全世界的一個交易 這很重要的"},{"start":13390.703,"end":13410.141,"text":"好 你剛剛講到全社會教育因為這件事情真的非常非常的重要因為我們可以看到就你們剛剛這個表格來看不管是宮廟團體或者是所謂大學跟大學之間的學術交流或者是所謂文化藝術團體的交流其實過去在兩岸之間確實有很多只是我們去的國人不見得有意識到說這中間的活動可能參雜有統戰的"},{"start":13413.764,"end":13433.256,"text":"行為在裡面 對嗎孩子們去對岸的大學參觀他可能不會要說 啊原來這一堂課是要給我洗腦的他們可能就安排了一個早上的課那如何在全民都可以理解這樣的事情這樣的概念情況下我們還是可以在安全的情況下進行人岸交流所以我想一般的所謂行為指引這件事情要拜託你們"},{"start":13434.356,"end":13456.636,"text":"為我們人民把關這件事情非常非常重要因為我相信一般人都是希望自己不要是被滲透的對象也希望自己不要成為中共在台灣的代理人或者是幫兇所以我認為好的行為指引對我們一般人真的非常重要所以來看一下目前剛剛司法委員也說了民進黨團除了修這個國安實法之外後續民進黨團也會有自己的內規"},{"start":13457.677,"end":13476.643,"text":"但除了這件事情之外我還想進一步跟您請教其實呢網美會委員或者是其他民營黨團的委員都有提出來例如說一定職等或是一定關節符合一定條件的公務員跟軍官如果他們從事效忠中國的行為可以依法剝奪部分或全部的退休金"},{"start":13477.623,"end":13492.432,"text":"在這件事情的修法其實我們也受到了阻礙或者是像我們個人在程序委員會的案子也受到了阻礙所以我想我當然非常謝謝你們說尊重立法院的提案那民進黨團當然也會積極在這件事情上持續有所作為所以我想我這邊最後還是快速的說"},{"start":13493.112,"end":13518.782,"text":"行政機關該有的措施如何防範中共滲透統戰的策略還有如何預防如何處置還有相關行政部門可不可以給我們一般人一個所謂的行為指引這件事情並且擴大所謂社會教育全面宣導最後呢我們也呼籲我們立法院應該要儘速填補國安相關法律漏洞我也要呼籲藍白不要再阻擋國安法案好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":13519.522,"end":13520.703,"text":"主席有請外交部陸委會 國安局 法務部"},{"start":13554.034,"end":13579.615,"text":"經濟學人日前有一篇文章他說一場有關台灣的超級強權危機即將來臨他指出三大因素會將台灣置於險境其中有一部分說到台灣政府政治失能成為中共灰色戰術企圖利用的弱點也提到賴清德的總統的強硬反制"},{"start":13580.175,"end":13605.812,"text":"那麼進一步加劇的社會撕裂讓中共有機可乘那我想請教一下我們各個部會你們都是作為我們總統非常重要的不管是對內的治安或是對於國家安全的重要幕僚單位你們對於經濟學人的這一篇文章的看法是什麼先請外交部好了"},{"start":13615.154,"end":13640.912,"text":"呃委員好呃我是外交部人事處處長那對於這個部分的話因為我們呃不在我們呃今天的夜館範圍裡面所以我沒有評論謝謝好來我們請陸委會委員好我們對於任何涉及到國家安全我們都是非常慎重以待好來請國安局呃委員好"},{"start":13641.465,"end":13662.92,"text":"那我想國安就是全體的人民的一個國安那我們認為有關於國安的部分一定要特別重視好來請我們的部長我想這個國安的問題是現在大家全民最關注的反正有涉及的一些的建立那我想我們都會做一個參採謝謝委員是那我難怪經濟學院這麼寫"},{"start":13667.558,"end":13693.574,"text":"這位四位的回答跟沒回答也沒有差別太多但沒關係你們回去也準備一個書面的來看看你們怎麼去應對經濟學人這樣的說法一個重點賴清德總統尤其對國內我們一些政治的狀態的許多的做法加劇的社會的撕裂也讓中共有機可乘我來請教我們的國安局好了"},{"start":13695.808,"end":13723.203,"text":"事實上不管是哪一位總統在任中共對台的威脅一直都存在沒錯吧但是呢今天中共對台的威脅有一個非常重要的一個著力點就是如果當台灣內部這個政治鬥爭政治的所謂的對抗越加激烈台灣的社會"},{"start":13724.395,"end":13743.698,"text":"開始進入分化的情況之下那是不是中共就相對是比較有機可乘了對不對當然這個如果是我們內部的安定確實對中共這個滲透或者他的一個相關的一個對我們的一個這個打擊沒錯所以我想問一個問題請問這個李登輝前總統跟陳水扁前總統"},{"start":13754.185,"end":13775.335,"text":"馬英九前總統跟蔡英文前總統再加上我們現在的賴清德總統有哪一個總統在他總統任內他以黨主席的身份下令要求全黨公職來推動在野黨的大罷免哪一個總統有做這件事情來 答不出來來 換一個陸委會來答答看"},{"start":13785.466,"end":13810.743,"text":"五個總統無選 搞不好無選五啦 你打五個也可以啦哪一個這個可能不涉及到陸委會的執照不涉及到 來要請部長這個不是我們法務部主管的業務 我沒辦法回答這個問題我告訴你啦沒有 就算齁 這個沒有常識 也可以常看新聞啦"},{"start":13811.604,"end":13839.625,"text":"就算不了解狀況我相信所有的社會現狀的報導各位都心知肚明只是你們說不出這句話人家經濟學人講的社會劇烈對抗其所本是什麼身為一個總統他有和諧跟團結國家的高度象徵意義他竟然具名發文"},{"start":13840.714,"end":13869.276,"text":"以黨主席身份要求全黨公職來投入對在野黨的大罷免我跟你講這不就是創造中共的可趁之機嗎李登輝做不到陳水扁做不到馬英九當然做不到蔡英文也做不到就我們現在賴清德總統做得到"},{"start":13873.272,"end":13886.082,"text":"難怪我告訴你今天台灣情況越來越危險因為當一個總統把所有的心力都放在罷免在野黨搜索所有在野黨的黨部全國性搜索各個在野黨的黨部我還要再問一下局長我一樣給你這個五個題目啦"},{"start":13900.868,"end":13927.802,"text":"李登輝總統曾經他主政的時候的檢調有搜索全部的在野黨黨部他有去搜嗎有沒有有沒有這個跟我國安局的職長是沒有相關的所以我們我告訴你沒有啦告訴你沒有啦陳隨便也沒有啦馬英九也沒有啦就我們戴清德總統"},{"start":13929.844,"end":13957.241,"text":"然後剛剛我看很多的詢答一而再再而三強調 勿往勿重啊勿往勿重啊我要回頭說今天不只經濟學人提出這樣的一個說法美國的外交政策網站刊登華府卡內基國際和平基金研究員的文章他說川普應遏止台灣然後說賴清德總統"},{"start":13958.717,"end":13984.945,"text":"不斷強調台灣主權獨立一步步增進北京動武風險要川普總統仿效布希時期做法要求台北自治以維持台海穩定避免美國遭受波及捲入戰爭這個觀點有人認同有人不認同但是不管是認同跟不認同說真的我們的外交跟國安部門都要去警覺一件事情"},{"start":13986.394,"end":14015.079,"text":"美國有這樣的聲音存在對我們絕對不是一件好事這一點我相信國安局應該認同吧有這樣的聲音存在應該對台灣不是好事吧是不是這總會是國安相關事務了吧我想任何的一個評論當然我們都會收集會做一個研判謝謝你 作為幕僚很辛苦我們留我們的部長其他的請回"},{"start":14018.871,"end":14042.164,"text":"部長 共諜案連環報 總統府立法院外交部都被滲透國安機密從總統府跟外交國安首長身邊源源的流向對岸我看這件事情我是很有感觸 為什麼因為我在總統府工作過 我曾經擔任總統府的副秘書長"},{"start":14044.482,"end":14071.497,"text":"尤其像何仁傑他擔任吳釗燮幕僚長達13年靠吳釗燮一路提拔進入總統府外交部國安會那吳釗燮在外交部長任內6年斷八國我們國安局長也請來一下 國安局的副局長那麼我想請教我們的外交策略跟戰略布局總統外交初期的規劃的機密"},{"start":14075.08,"end":14103.289,"text":"不是被北京當局精準掌握了嗎有沒有這個風險 請問我們的副局長是 當然是有這個風險所以在政府總統的隨乎安全人員是我們特別要在安全考核的一個對象然後我要告訴你另外一件事情事實上我們賴清德總統面對這件事情他的回應"},{"start":14105.031,"end":14120.523,"text":"我也想請教一下他說執政黨的黨工都是收買對象在野黨也一樣各行各業都是中國的收買對象然後但是目前我看到被揭露做中共內應的"},{"start":14122.27,"end":14148.769,"text":"主要就是吳釗燮秘書長辦公室的何仁傑總統府總統辦公室的姿意吳尚宇立法院前院長游錫堃辦公室助理盛楚英民進黨民主學院前副主任邱士源以及新北市議員李語典特助黃曲榮等五人當然我知道你們一定說個案不洩露啦但是我要講一件事情"},{"start":14152.094,"end":14176.942,"text":"還有其他的涉案嗎我這個問題你一定說個案不介入啦可是我就要問一個問題第一個有沒有跟我們的吳釗燮秘書長好好的談一談了解一下我們現在到底泄密的範圍有多大我還沒講搜索啦我沒有講搜索我只是說起碼跟吳釗燮秘書長談一談有沒有做這件事情有沒有"},{"start":14178.723,"end":14201.148,"text":"這個是偵辦的個案 所以我們也不便去做一個說明偵辦的個案 其實我跟你講如果是在總統府 我在總統府的時候我們的外交官發生這種事情我告訴你 我做總統府發言人 我一定有出來說明的義務沒有叫你交代細節"},{"start":14203.151,"end":14226.902,"text":"你起碼告訴國人今天吳釗燮我坦蕩蕩我也接受相關單位的詢問詢問來幫忙協助做損害控管我不知道為什麼連這一件事情都做不到照你所說的否認那我是解讀是沒有這一次沒做囉是這樣嗎部長"},{"start":14232.438,"end":14258.089,"text":"我沒辦法去這是個案嘛 就是回到那個個案嘛你個案講了一萬遍有了好啦沒關係 我告訴你你一貫就用個案來講但是我還是要講一件事情國人有知的權利我也不是在怪我們今天的法務部啊 國安局啊或是我們的檢調機關啊而是今天"},{"start":14259.537,"end":14269.786,"text":"怎麼會總統府這件事情沒藥沒金呢真的如果我是在總統府的時候這個事情媒體不可能放過我啦"},{"start":14270.731,"end":14294.584,"text":"我也不可能交代案情 我站出來不會說 不會啦 我跟你講我們的這個國安會秘書長 我們總統府的那個 我們的總統我們都已經1510 ABCDEFG五項 六項 七項的一個洩密範圍我們都已經跟這個司法單位已經說了我不可能透露到這麼細呀但是起碼安定國人的心這件事總要做嘛"},{"start":14297.352,"end":14323.906,"text":"就像部長喔如果部裡發生什麼狀況你要安定民心的話你部裡的發言人總要出來說話嘛對不對沒錯吧我不是講個案啦一些重大的法務部的重大事件你的部裡發言人要不要出來說一下我們法務部應該不會發生重大事件吧不會不會啊你太小看法務部了你太小看法務部沒關係啦我告訴你啦"},{"start":14325.967,"end":14347.268,"text":"就這麼一個道理嘛然後接下來我跟你講喔然後因為共諜案平場我覺得部長都訓練很好都不談個案可是我們的總統沒有阿直接一刀就是說在野黨也有阿在野黨有沒有總統說的對不對請問我們副局長"},{"start":14350.761,"end":14359.007,"text":"從歷次歷年來的一個統計執政黨或在野黨都有發生謝謝 你現在又不個案了因為總統講的話你也得要跟不是 我告訴你你作為總統你跟我講在野黨的個案是哪些 你告訴我你要知道總統府是總統府 國安會 外交部"},{"start":14376.141,"end":14399.182,"text":"你不要跟我講路人夾一筆你抓到共諜你要去跟總統府的幕僚比我要跟你講今天涉及的這個所謂的共諜案的總統府的辦公室之一吳尚宇還有我們這個吳釗燮的幕僚何仁傑我想請問你們他們是公務員嗎是正式的公務員嗎這種回答要出來吧"},{"start":14403.069,"end":14412.631,"text":"是不是方便由考試院或人總來做一個說明可以啊 沒關係 有單位說明就好來 有在嗎 人總我也好是嗎 他們是考國家考試進來的公務員嗎"},{"start":14425.869,"end":14453.298,"text":"委員您剛問的是 吳尚宇啊他們是聘用人員 答對了聘用人員是依照聘用人員聘用條例禁用所以不是依據任用法禁用的人員非常好你看我們的人事人總回答得多清楚來請回謝謝你副局長我跟你講這個其實不用人總回啦你不可能不知道你們如果連這個都沒有掌握我就覺得會有一點小遺憾但是沒有關係啦我要先講一件事情"},{"start":14454.901,"end":14481.321,"text":"這些人其實都是從民進黨帶來的機要有時候我都覺得對我們現在公務單位有時候他們還是間接被連累感覺好像總統府被滲透 國安會被滲透不是 抱歉是賴清德的幕僚被滲透是吳釗燮的政治機要幕僚被滲透因為他們都是聘用的都不是文官系統出來的"},{"start":14483.194,"end":14509.92,"text":"所以我回頭講最後要講一件事情就是說基本上我當然支持你今天好好查辦所有的共敵但是另外一方面我也真的非常感慨我剛剛前面講了很多東西不管是罷免不管是對在野黨黨部的搜索這種所謂大殺四方的總統我只在賴清德身上看見以上 謝謝"},{"start":14519.65,"end":14520.072,"text":"好 呃...來吧"},{"start":14527.372,"end":14551.907,"text":"那個局長那個釣魚局長就是我們剛有提到那個剛有質詢的時候有提到那個績效核分的那個事情我想麻煩局長就是說今天下午能夠提供給我們那個核分的項目表因為那個是已經有的一定有的資料想提供給我們然後裡面要有那個集聚那個比較細緻的規定給我們電子檔就可以再麻煩給我辦公室好謝謝"},{"start":14554.048,"end":14582.817,"text":"那所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢 那訓導結束委員諮詢時有要求提供的相關資料或以書面答覆請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會委員許信義所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆那本次的會議為兩天一次會那今天的會議進行到此那我們現在休息 謝謝大家"},{"start":14588.795,"end":14589.535,"text":"蜂蜜"},{"start":14618.2,"end":14621.493,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":14627.286,"end":14635.147,"text":"好 馬上拿了就要對啊 還好沒吃過那也可以這個 反正不好意思 不好意思"},{"start":14659.074,"end":14659.814,"text":"謝謝收看,下次見"}]}},{"id":"16643","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16643","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea13160f04860f8ef71097cfa4245e414914bfadd538e1bbbf5a0bc770f589259e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。三、繼續審查委員王鴻薇等24人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員林思銘等22人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條及第七十二條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第六十四條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員邱若華等19人擬具「社會秩序維護法第七十二條條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第九條條文修正草案」案。十、繼續審查委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。十一、繼續審查委員魯明哲等18人擬具「社會秩序維護法第八十九條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-05","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-05T08:30:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-05T10:18:00+08:00","duration":6463,"影片長度":"01:47:43","委員發言時間":"08:30:17 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請宣讀繼續審查委員羅廷維等16人委員高金素美等21人委員王洪威等24人委員林思明等22人分別擬據社會秩序維護法第64條條文修正查案繼續審查委員盧明哲等17人擬據社會秩序維護法第89條條文修正查案"},{"start":2065.3,"end":2082.687,"text":"继续审查台湾民众党党团拟据社会秩序维护法第64条及第72条条文修正查案继续审查委员邱若华等19人拟据社会秩序维护法第64条条文修正查案继续审查委员邱若华等19人拟据社会秩序维护法第72条条文修正查案"},{"start":2083.147,"end":2096.763,"text":"继续审查委员严宽恒等16人拟据社会秩序维护法第9条条文修正查案继续审查委员严宽恒等16人委员鲁明哲等18人分别拟据社会秩序维护法第89条条文修正查案宣读完毕"},{"start":2100.014,"end":2125.21,"text":"好本市審查這法案業經本會於114年4月24日本會及第13次全體委員會議報告及詢答結束並決議均另定期繼續審查原此本次會議繼續進行審查現在介紹在場委員及列席官員首先委員的部分我們王美惠委員蘇巧惠委員黃婕委員李柏毅委員"},{"start":2130.698,"end":2152.711,"text":"吳清明委員官員部份內政部劉思芳部長警政署張榮鑫署長報告委員會討論事項的條文上次會議我們都已經宣讀而且進入已經做過初步的討論我們現在進行協商"},{"start":2197.406,"end":2220.028,"text":"好 我們就一條一條來 可以嗎要不要坐著 坐著比較輕鬆剛剛這樣子啊 我剛剛有問張榮鑫署長因為其實我們上次討論到的結果是針對這幾條警政署應該要有一個相關的一個比較明確的說法那我們是針對大家同意我們先請他進行報告跟說明 這樣可以嗎好 那我們請張榮鑫署長報告說明"},{"start":2222.554,"end":2239.754,"text":"好 早安委員 各位早安那有關第9條對於這個印尼亞人的部分我們本部的這個意見那是建議修正未滿7歲及有聽覺及語言障礙者這個是我們同意這個示範的這個解釋這是第9條"},{"start":2242.95,"end":2257.447,"text":"那第64條對於黃紐這個部分那我稍微做一個說明一下那我們設置法立法的目的本質跟體力都是行政調查跟行政法所規範的都是比較輕微的違規行為"},{"start":2259.269,"end":2285.13,"text":"那票卷黃牛已經涉及不當的方式就是高額獲取這個利益的這個問題對消費者是重大的這個侵害所以不應該再由設置法來加以規範我們可以從文創法跟運產條例就可以知道說專款專文來規範藝文的票卷跟運動賽制的這個黃牛也要採刑事法所以這個對於這個其他黃牛譬如這樣醫療醫療"},{"start":2290.855,"end":2304.787,"text":"參與實訴我們本部是建立由各票卷的主管機關各由各主管票卷的黃有行為來嚴厲修法那從源頭管理跟查辦來做一個處罰那所以我們本部的建立就是說"},{"start":2306.926,"end":2328.179,"text":"如果在設置法在把規範其他列這個黃牛跟現在我們處罰的黃牛會有兩個不同的一個法例的問題那我們本部的建議就是也有做一個附帶的的一個一個處理的方式就是建議由主管機關趕快來做一個修法來修法把納入這個法的這個這個管理"},{"start":2329.119,"end":2346.387,"text":"那另外第72條對於這個噪音的這個部分那我們有統計就是說這個每年像111年 112年我們出警的次數大概有44萬人次的警察那112年的裁罰件數大概500件左右是0.19113年是大概200件 199件大概裁罰只有0.07所以件數非常的少"},{"start":2358.692,"end":2375.567,"text":"那我們上次的這個決議裡面大概提高法院那法院的部分本部是沒有意見對於這個處罰的部分法院只要是第一三萬塊是沒有意見那不過呢我們還是這個建立未來在遭遇管制法部分來做專法一個修正"},{"start":2376.277,"end":2403.867,"text":"那第八十九條對於這一些跟追的這個行為我們統計近十年從一百零四年到一百一十三年總共只有三百件那一年大概只有三十件所以可以講說為無極為那這一條我們上次的大概就是也是增加這個法案那我本部的意見如果增加的話也沒有意見那只要也不要超過三萬塊為原則就以上的補充報告謝謝"},{"start":2407.57,"end":2426.387,"text":"好 謝謝張榮鑫署長我們部長要補充嗎因為我們內部有先討論過有跟幾位關心的委員也討論過第一個我們就建議就是顏寬文委員的這個所謂的這個陰雅人的部分可以做修正那再來就是有關這個罰款的部分"},{"start":2427.208,"end":2456.267,"text":"因為按照社會秩序維護法它的上限就是3萬不要比這個還高所以我們就尊重委員在討論的時候認為罰款要如何提高但是我們也要提醒一下譬如說像噪音的管制的部分它的最低限是300元那你最低限是300元如果高限以3萬元的話一次就差將近100倍那這個部分是不是未來在處罰的這個程序上面會有一些程序上的困擾也提供給委員參考"},{"start":2459.589,"end":2482.036,"text":"好謝謝兩位的補充那請坐休息一下好我現在徵詢各位委員的意見來我們就一條一條來好不好這個社會法第九條好請務卿委員我支持我們那個警政室的修正修正說明真的會非常的好所以本席支持"},{"start":2484.349,"end":2508.461,"text":"那第九條我們就因為討論過了嘛對不對到底一個怎麼樣的這個文字上它是比較沒有歧視意味但是可以維持它本來的範圍嘛那麼就是把它改成精神耗弱或未滿7歲極有聽覺且語言障礙者比較中性這請問各位委員這樣修正有問題嗎沒有好那我們就按照這樣的條文修正通過可以嗎可以謝謝好再來我們要先異後難還是一條一條來一條一條來"},{"start":2512.25,"end":2517.124,"text":"那我們就先討論一下黃牛票的部分好不好好請大家發表意見"},{"start":2524.064,"end":2546.988,"text":"對那我還是認為這個黃牛修在這個社會法裡面可能沒有辦法達到我們要的目的啦那我還是希望黃牛一定要處理那是以更嚴肅的方式然後更嚴謹的方式處理所以看是不是覺得不要修在這裡可以保留然後但是可以去看是不是請消保處整理相關的黃牛的樣態然後回歸各個專法處理我覺得會是比較好的方式"},{"start":2553.773,"end":2555.636,"text":"你們三個同時舉手 美惠委員先好了"},{"start":2559.798,"end":2582.603,"text":"只是在這荒謬票的時候 我覺得是運動跟表演跟遊樂應該是回歸各主管單位的管理比較好因為每一屆的票券都有每一屆的特性我覺得應該是要有各自的配套的總統職下來處理比較好也有辦法改善現有的總統以上"},{"start":2590.716,"end":2605.786,"text":"好 蘇曉慧委員然後李柏毅委員好 謝謝主席那我想我經過這幾天的我們經過上次的討論和這幾天的思考以後我們也還是一樣認為這個既然現在我們在這個文創法裡面還有運產發展條例裡面有針對"},{"start":2609.809,"end":2624.522,"text":"這種藝文活動和運動賽事這樣的票券能夠有專法然後特別的來規定那麼其他的部分呢比如說大家關心的醫療票券的部分呢我也認為應該用比較用專法的部分回到各該主管機關來辦理"},{"start":2625.703,"end":2643.289,"text":"所以像上一次在會議當中我提說我自己也會提出這個修正案那我想很感謝我們立法院同仁的支持也已經在上個星期五已經送進本屆第三會期的第十次會議當中我們也已經送案了那所以我想我是覺得"},{"start":2645.33,"end":2667.868,"text":"縱觀而言我們肯認所有委員對社會上這類問題的關心所以我們是不是不要把它修在社委法裡面我們可以用附帶決議或其他的方式表達對這件事情的關心然後也建議政府這個在各該主管機關用專法的方式來一一的解決這個相關大家關心的這種所謂票券所謂黃牛的問題 以上好 謝謝我們李博弈委員完然後黃婕維好嗎"},{"start":2674.276,"end":2699.811,"text":"好謝謝那針對我們設置法第64條裡面我們現在修法要去把包含很多這些票券等等要規範那目前已經有規範的包含這個文化創意產業發展法還有運動產業發展條例裡面分別對運動賽事以及這些藝文表演演唱會等等有一些從文化部以及"},{"start":2705.834,"end":2723.824,"text":"的一些規範但是醫療跟參旅食宿他其實涉及非常多的面向如果要放在設置法的話那我這邊的傾向也是會比較傾向說是不是由衛福部以及參旅食宿的主管單位來做這個規範因為他的"},{"start":2728.607,"end":2740.376,"text":"項類會比較多一點所以在這邊是不是建議警政署這邊就直接提出或者是由我們委員這邊來共同來研議一個對64條來研議一個附帶決議那來看後續可以怎麼樣進行接下來的討論 謝謝好黃教委"},{"start":2751.584,"end":2767.51,"text":"好 謝謝那我想要再補充一下因為我還是認為如果說在社會法反而會罰太輕因為你黃牛如果只罰三萬真的對他們完全不痛不癢要想他們對他們來說黃牛是暴力喔他們一次一張票都是用十倍二十倍這樣下去賣"},{"start":2768.51,"end":2787.253,"text":"所以你罰他三萬他還是會照做所以我認為休在這邊反而很可惜啦就是沒有達到我們要的目的然後另外就是我上次說的就是非公自用跟這個意圖他其實定在這邊是非常不明確的然後我在這邊是想要特別請教我們文化部的副司長有來對不對"},{"start":2788.979,"end":2805.97,"text":"是我想要請教因為我剛好最近有一個案子他是說他們買的是跟偶像跟粉絲的見面會然後粉絲跟我說見面會不算在你們文創法的這個範圍裡面因為沒有表演但實質上裡面其實是有含類似表演的性質"},{"start":2807.091,"end":2833.953,"text":"沒有文化不回我的所以我我覺得蠻驚訝是不是在這邊也讓因為可能有一些粉絲他們現在也在看我要給他們一個交代然後我問你們你們又不回就是告訴我說見面會為什麼不能用文創法來罰因為他們也認為那個見面會有疑似黃牛的嫌疑對那所以你們那個表演性質的藝文活動應該是都要放在文創法裡面才對啊可不可以在這邊統一說明謝謝不好意思喔讓我們說明一下謝謝"},{"start":2836.775,"end":2855.223,"text":"好 我們請蘇曉慧委員補充這我一定要用麥克風留紀錄粉絲見面會當然要算在藝人活動裡面啊這句話我要留紀錄加碼蘇曉慧委員用粉絲見面會當然是藝人活動的一種因為我常去啊 常買啊這開什麼玩笑請文化部副市長做一下說明副市長 副市長對啊 說明一下好不好對 你想要一張軟軀嗎對啊 拍照可以"},{"start":2865.996,"end":2886.577,"text":"是還是要跟委員說明一下因為粉絲見面會還是成如委員說的我們會去看裡面的性質他有表演的性質對那個內容粉絲見面本身就是一個表演了大家要搞清楚所以我們可能還是要去看一下那個個案裡面他的一個活動的內容這個部分因為委員的就是有反映的這個那個個案我們現在"},{"start":2888.258,"end":2895.685,"text":"我們有看過一些錄影的部分我有看過一些線上就是我沒有實際去參加過是是是市長你說你自己錄影去看啦我覺得你要實際去看現在的孩子去見面會有時候要逼去聽唱歌還要多"},{"start":2914.153,"end":2915.435,"text":"所以真的還搶票有的家長真的為了孩子去新郎廟"},{"start":2922.315,"end":2948.529,"text":"好等一下副市長現在你們解釋的狀況粉絲見面會不算議論表演活動對不對我們要個案認定那怎麼罰是個案認定那怎麼罰不是不罰還是要看它是不是裡面有表演所以我講嘛這就是這麼多委員去提社會法的原因嘛對不對就是當然定專法都是對的但或有不足或有權勢這我倒是蠻贊成大家的說法就是說粉絲見面會當然是議論表演活動"},{"start":2949.85,"end":2972.688,"text":"而且他的暴力的程度不亞於演唱會等等所以你趕快做調整好不好不行不行 我覺得這樣子見面會只要是有票券販售他就是表演沒有什麼我們要進去裡面看他有沒有表演什麼叫他裡面有沒有表演他光站上舞台的那一刻起就已經是表演了"},{"start":2973.448,"end":2989.048,"text":"這就是一個藝人在表現他的所有的才能他就是表演他即便是脫口秀他即便是什麼他就是表演我覺得沒有沒有只要是有販售票券的就已經是藝文活動表演了OK好我們請高經緯好不好"},{"start":2994.588,"end":2998.812,"text":"早在108年的時候 行政院就黃牛票的行為已經召開跨部會會議了"},{"start":3014.645,"end":3039.824,"text":"當時呢民進黨也是我們的執政黨也是國會多數可是那個時候召開這個跨部會會議的時候拖了四年喔108拖了四年一直到現在沒有拿出具體的解決方案那我們現在看到黃牛的具體的這個亂象越來越多也越來越多元最後呢一直到112年的時候我們立法委員才"},{"start":3040.905,"end":3062.241,"text":"主動發起修法所以才會有現在的文創法跟運產法但是僅僅能夠處理藝文跟運動票券像是旅宿餐飲就是我一直在談的遊樂園票券甚至黃牛陳列票券的行為通通無法管"},{"start":3062.901,"end":3084.991,"text":"包括剛剛在座的三位談的那個所謂的見面會那個都是衍生出來的問題好不好還有更嚴重的是我們號稱有專法處理但是我們去看所有的檢舉我上次也質詢過這個就要一步就是我們有檢舉9000件對不對可是實際開罰的比例"},{"start":3091.158,"end":3113.677,"text":"不到2%而已所以也就是说有非常多的不在我们的文创法跟运创法里面被罚到所以这样子来说的话我们人民怎么会相信政府你们是真的要打击黄牛呢所以我们这次才会修设为法另外我要再说"},{"start":3115.388,"end":3140.48,"text":"黃牛的問題早已經不是文化或運動產業的個別亂象它真的是我們社會共同面對的制度性的問題讓民眾買不到票用不起搶不到日常生活真的都被搞得亂七八糟所以我們才會主張是不是從社違法裡面來搭配各專法雙管齊下"},{"start":3141.28,"end":3159.373,"text":"那么我还记得在112年的时候在教文委员会的公厅上上面肖基会他当时就建议应该要来修色违法第64条比如说黄牛炒的蛋黄酥"},{"start":3161.192,"end":3179.621,"text":"對不對 代購 掛號全部都是一定都有的所以我認為只要是意圖盈利並且它是公開上架包括我們剛剛說的見面會這種它本來就應該要納入處罰可是我們看到這幾年來"},{"start":3184.909,"end":3201.795,"text":"我們的政府沒有提出專法也沒有修社委法我們看到的就是亂象不斷然後執法無力再來我必須要講的是我們上次有提到的就是社委法一直在講社委法沒有嚇阻力應該要有刑事法"},{"start":3202.495,"end":3216.975,"text":"然後我要問的是 夠不夠重 而是有沒有罰現在其實民眾最不滿的就是 我已經檢舉了 然後政府說要罰可是根本也沒有看到誰被罰了"},{"start":3219.392,"end":3242.89,"text":"三萬塊可能不中可是我認為總比完全不執法來得有效吧所以今天我們如果用社委法來迅速處理來加強執行然後我們是不是再搭配檢舉獎勵或者是黑名單的機制因為有意圖要做這件事情的他一定是"},{"start":3244.485,"end":3261.876,"text":"他會做很多的準備而我們被抓過一次其實他就是黑名單他以後可能就是我們要非常注意的所以我說我覺得是不可以說我們罰太輕然後呢就說哎呀這件事情就不處理了然後就讓他繼續的"},{"start":3263.737,"end":3264.538,"text":"最高行政法院在106年的時候"},{"start":3280.902,"end":3302.221,"text":"判制第454號的判決已經明確指出行政法跟刑法的差異僅僅是在於刑度而非實質的內容我們簡單換一句話講對這種普遍性的違規行為本來就可以用社違法來先做基礎的處理"},{"start":3303.542,"end":3319.795,"text":"所以我認為就是說如果我們現在的政府以及執政黨你們認為特定的課案特別的嚴重應該要以專法加重刑責我是完全支持的那麼是不是就請大家另外提案的時候但是但是"},{"start":3320.595,"end":3338.893,"text":"色違法的手法是政府現在立刻可以上手的我們現在已經在談了然後它是可以即刻執行的工具我認為最後的結論就是民眾要看的就是我們到底有沒有執法的決心而不是繼續用口號來做"},{"start":3342.216,"end":3360.152,"text":"要不然的話我覺得這個社會會越來越亂大概以上我提的幾點請大家思考一下我們既然今天已經在談社違法了已經它立即可以做了我們把好多的面向是不是好好討論一下以上謝謝好 謝謝高金素美委員的說明我們請張宏祿找尾"},{"start":3363.462,"end":3372.791,"text":"謝謝其實我覺得這個黃牛真的太廣了那要不要處理大家都有共識要處理而且我覺得連行政部門的這個"},{"start":3374.64,"end":3392.091,"text":"觀點也要改變啦你像文化部說的這個見面會這個還有那個我個人也是非常覺得跟實際的情況是不一樣的啦我們要比較積極啦那我覺得啦大家講的都非常有道理但"},{"start":3393.172,"end":3406.376,"text":"行政部門講的啊你如果吼你用專法你可以用刑法用什麼你可以是處罰的比較多的而且也不會掛一肉萬我怕我們這邊吼這真的"},{"start":3409.157,"end":3432.032,"text":"雖然我們想了很多啦但這個社會進步很快可能明天又有新的東西出來了所以我不知道行政部門是怎麼樣我覺得啦我們是不是在這個社會法裡面就黃流這一個部分我們就直接也給他寫入法就是說相關其他的部會應該要訂專法"},{"start":3434.955,"end":3446.857,"text":"我覺得我們就這樣子如果可以這樣寫進去其他的要訂專法那他們也才可以去執行我不知道行政單位對這樣的看法有沒有什麼不同的意見可以請行政單位說一下"},{"start":3448.925,"end":3476.879,"text":"我們可以用附帶決議又或什麼有很多東西可以去做這個啦我稍微綜合一下各位委員的意見第一個就是說就是說大家都希望能夠用專法來充分規範是最好的嘛包含行政部門的想法是這樣對不對但其實在剛剛的過程中就發現即便是專法它或多又會有漏洞嘛因為有權勢的問題嘛所以我覺得這個社會法作為一個就是一個對總括啦就是另外事項的一種罰則的存在我覺得還是有必要嘛"},{"start":3477.559,"end":3502.956,"text":"因為剛剛就有具體例子譬如說見面會就是很好的例子所以怎麼 所以調高他的罰則調高他的罰則應該還是有必要的嘛對不對因為現在本來大家的提案第一個是調高罰則第二個是討論樣態嘛那我們是不是可以用一個怎麼樣的法律文字來規範譬如說非專法規範之什麼非公自由販售各種票券就是用社會法來就讓他確定他是一個捕破網這樣子的一個形式啦"},{"start":3503.576,"end":3528.016,"text":"有沒有辦法我們討論出一個這樣子的條文來做修正那當然附帶決議的部分我覺得附帶決議要求各個機關去思考各個主管範圍內部訂立專法的必要性是大家都會贊成但是你不要去寫說我們這個社會法就沒有必要或者是不處理我覺得也奇怪啦所以我覺得彼此之間文字再做一下斟酌看有沒有辦法達成共識啦我們往這個方向來思考行政機關要不要再補充"},{"start":3534.699,"end":3550.923,"text":"那我還是再補充一下因為如果放在社委法還是要小心說包括像醫療的一種一些套組或者是說餐飲的一些套卷跟旅遊的一些套票如果他們用社委法會不會不小心發錯這件事情"},{"start":3553.164,"end":3555.846,"text":"對 那我知道說放在社會法是希望概略性的處理各種樣態的黃牛可是我就是怕這個全面的處理反而會誤罰到不該罰的那這種餐飲的套卷上次已經講過很多了就是餐飲業有各式各樣的那種套票"},{"start":3570.256,"end":3584.619,"text":"然後甚至是買禮券的然後你放在這邊就是變成說連很多餐飲業者可能會不小心被誤罰我覺得這個要小心一點然後我還是再說一次這邊社會法最高就只有罰三萬大家要審慎思考只罰三萬會不會釋出的訊息反而是非常錯誤的說原來我們台灣處理黃牛只用三萬塊處理"},{"start":3594.841,"end":3604.665,"text":"這個好像看起來 我會覺得反而沒有想要達到我們的目的就是我們希望的是重罰然後結果大家說重罰 重罰黃牛三萬這個對呀 這個我會覺得反而有失我們意圖要更嚴格的處理這件事的這個想法啦"},{"start":3618.712,"end":3635.831,"text":"謝謝那我是覺得如果可以做的話就是說是不是乾脆訂一個附帶決議然後請各個主管機關回去都開始研擬相關的專訪然後訂一個修法時程我覺得都很好但是如果放在這邊最後我們重罰三萬塊那真的是蠻弱的謝謝"},{"start":3637.854,"end":3664.394,"text":"這個我要補充一下如果不修的話是只有一萬八啦這樣比較好啦 對啊所以大家商量一下因為社會法上限是三萬嘛這我想我們在討論過程中非常清楚所以一樣法環樣態好不好 請高清委員我覺得黃菊委員擔心的那個部分並不會存在啦因為它如果真的是屬於文創法它就屬於文創法那邊的法環然後它如果是運動的它就在運動專法那其他的話我們還說我們會"},{"start":3667.776,"end":3690.737,"text":"這個專法其他的專法會出來那其他的專法肯定也要把它罰得很重我們現在講的就是說漏掉的部分在專法裡面沒有的我們至少要先把它放在這個色違法裡面那你們剛剛擔憂的這個履塑業這個我覺得這是樣態的問題我們大家想一想可以看排除法或者是專章裡面來處理好不好"},{"start":3694.641,"end":3714.427,"text":"主席我們非常的了解也肯定高金委員剛剛的想法就是我們希望在這裡面看因為社會法本來就是說社會秩序在種種的裁罰刑罰或者各式各樣規範之後能夠有一個大王把剩下的漏洞接住他原來是這樣的概念但"},{"start":3714.867,"end":3738.878,"text":"我們現在如果要用這樣社會法去接住其他漏洞的時候我們現在在討論的就是說那個文字的寫法要很小心不要在概括把大家接住的同時卻多收了其他社會上本來也有一些樣態是介在這個兩邊之間嘛就是合法和非法之間我們是希望把所有非法的都包進來"},{"start":3740.279,"end":3748.987,"text":"但是合法的你不能把它伸張出去所以我覺得這個地方的話要小心的是那個文字到底寫不寫得出來有沒有辦法在這段時間寫出來那如果沒有辦法在現在就寫出來的話我們這幾位立法委員要修法的同時我們就必須要在假設今天要有結論的話我們要決定的是那"},{"start":3761.558,"end":3786.048,"text":"我們到底要把他這個法律文字擴張出去以至於可能會踩到合法的人侵害到他們的權益或者是不管我們現在就是大家就這個亂世用重點所以我們就是要把刑度擴張我們必須做一個抉擇我覺得是這樣因為心意大家都肯定了這樣好不好我們沒有任何人要彼此要怎麼樣嘛這個沒有沒有要互相這個制衡這樣的狀態"},{"start":3788.069,"end":3799.755,"text":"好 請張宏祿召委我覺得啦齁其實大家都有共識啦像高俊維什麼這個大家其實都有一個共識但是我我是不是說我們有一個具體的建議就是說"},{"start":3801.658,"end":3826.108,"text":"社會法要不要修就黃牛的定義的部分我覺得大家都有共識要修那我剛剛其實我再講清楚一點我們給行政機關各部會一個時間但也不是讓他時間太長各部會應該去檢討他們可以立專法的部分把它提出來然後呢有一些樣態呢是各部會沒有"},{"start":3827.168,"end":3843.613,"text":"就算立專法也無法去涵蓋到的部分我們再把它放進來我覺得這樣子修法比較負責任啦這樣子才會讓社會能夠接受然後也給行政機關他們有壓力"},{"start":3845.051,"end":3872.271,"text":"我們就舉剛剛文化部的例子啊大家就這樣 他們就可以回去比如說我們給各個行政機關一到兩個月的時間不少你把它全部整理出來你可以立專法的 你什麼時候要立那你如果有一些你涵蓋不到的然後配合我們內政部 請大家來看如何把它寫下去寫得完整我個人的建議是這樣會比較好我們對社會對我們看我們立法的品質也會比較好啦我提出這樣大家想想看"},{"start":3874.389,"end":3879.351,"text":"主席,我是覺得像批論這個產業業的票券的問題,我覺得這如果用不好,你的地產企業自己的業者下去競爭下去檢舉,這樣就說實在很慘了"},{"start":3896.454,"end":3898.477,"text":"有時候做生意的人有時候看到那間好現在就透過白行行為來檢舉票卷的問題參卷的問題 這也是很大的問題因為我覺得我們要修法是"},{"start":3914.07,"end":3927.439,"text":"這不受幾個 要來處理 讓他發動的難道認真做生意的人大部分去考慮到說 要發展的時候覺得這也很簡單的 醫生好 大家針對這一條還有意見嗎好 我們請部會補充說明好不好有意見要補充說明嗎 還是跟剛剛一樣"},{"start":3945.539,"end":3971.088,"text":"非常謝謝各位委員的高見那其實我們是跟上一次比較起來我們的主張還是這樣第一個社會秩序維護法當然是一個行政調查跟行政法但是你現在讓警察機關有太多的裁量權這個在我們法治社會裡面比較不那麼能夠接受一定要把它定在法條裡面會比較好那至於就是剛剛所說的那個黃牛的樣態"},{"start":3972.208,"end":3979.59,"text":"已經可以處理黃牛樣態的部分在文化創意產業發展法還有運動產業發展條例那我們就尊重那現在呢在我們的這個討論裡面我們認為像醫療法還有參與實處法應該是由那個我們的衛福部或者是交通部他們訂定專法因為他們訂定專法的部分呢才能夠認定為什麼我剛剛說提到說給我們的警政機關太多行政材料各位都知道黃牛呢從它開始源頭"},{"start":4001.516,"end":4024.418,"text":"到開始販售然後到最後販售的結果引起的糾紛這三個的這個步驟啊如果你沒有辦法成就他是屬於黃流這樣的定義的話單純叫警察機關從頭開始從開始賣票到最後票結束然後有發生什麼糾紛這個的調查過程啊其實會讓警政機關有太多的行政材料這是一個"},{"start":4024.718,"end":4026.84,"text":"那再來就是剛剛所說的怎麼樣彌補所謂的空窗期我所謂的空窗期就是說醫療法還沒修正或者是交通部的觀光發展條例也還沒修正之前我們要怎麼樣處理這一塊第一個就是說"},{"start":4045.155,"end":4061.748,"text":"目前的64條有包括高金素美委員還有黃建斌 劉許廷 羅廷維委員所提的修正動議裡面有提到的這個部分我們認為它已經不是屬於行政調查跟行政法它已經是屬於刑法的範圍所以我們比較不認為說64條的修正動議要修正成這個樣子"},{"start":4065.651,"end":4093.684,"text":"還有高金素梅跟羅廷惟委員 劉喜廷 黃建斌委員提到了附帶決議跟我們的想法會比較相近就是說我們能不能有什麼方式可以彌補這個破洞所以要規範的是所有的目的事業主管機關要把它規範進來非目的事業主管機關的部分只要是屬於行政調查跟行政罰可以做得到就剛剛有人提到我們的行政罰最高就給你罰三萬塊"},{"start":4094.884,"end":4114.974,"text":"那還有就是行政教材基於警察職權他能夠處理的可以放進去的話我們是建議的不要用條列式的方式因為你條列式一定會掛一漏萬我舉個例子譬如說這邊有寫這個在這個羅廷偉委的部分他是寫非公自用那你購買有運輸票遊樂票藝文票券運動票券醫療票券參旅時數票券"},{"start":4120.336,"end":4147.567,"text":"各式休閒及商品票券而意圖轉售盈利者及轉售圖利者這個的認定光靠警察機關來認定就會出現困難什麼叫做意圖轉售盈利或者是轉售圖利我們如果沒有其他的這個包括說要有刑事的處罰的要件的話呢光是用這樣的方式然後就給他裁罰要一萬八或是三萬的話這個恐怕會引起更大的紛爭以上"},{"start":4149.646,"end":4175.381,"text":"好 謝謝行政機關的補充說明我覺得我們這樣啦這一條因為如果沒有一個詳細的文字作為基礎就鬼打架嘛一直講 講個沒完嘛我們請李博弈委員發言之後然後我們大家冷靜一下然後我們先走其他兩個法條好不好然後請李博弈委員謝謝 謝謝主席我講一個實例剛剛部長在講的這個就是有關住宿參旅這一個其實你知道現在旅展進去都在賣什麼嗎"},{"start":4176.96,"end":4197.668,"text":"有一半就是在賣餐旅食宿券那如果我們拿著這一條社會法進去讓我們警政署那個署長你看哪一個分局或者是哪一個縣市政府警察局哪裡有辦旅展拿著這一個法條進去進去這個旅展"},{"start":4198.328,"end":4217.22,"text":"大概會抓走一半的業者那我們是不希望發生這種事情所以說這個比較專業的法案我們覺得這個還是要回歸到官方法案條例這裡面去規範才不會造成社會的亂象這才是社會亂象啦這個再用白話跟大家說明一下 謝謝好 謝謝那我們這一條"},{"start":4225.277,"end":4240.834,"text":"好主席我想建議一下就是說我們有沒有考慮這樣子因為剛剛進來大家內容的部分都還有很多的這個保留我們是不是把這個罰緩的部分提高變成是到三萬元以下"},{"start":4241.614,"end":4267.267,"text":"讓大家的裁量空間可以變高三萬元就是罰緩數額的部分但是原條文的內容文字暫時先不要變但我們出一個附帶決議附帶決議就是說要去整理要有這個各種樣態該走專法的走專法然後該什麼的可以什麼的這樣子是不是把大家的意思也包括進去這樣我覺得可能各個委員看看這是不是我們目前的共識"},{"start":4269.502,"end":4276.28,"text":"跟我想的其實差不多謝謝蘇小慧委員的建議來 我們其他委員針對這樣子的想法有沒有什麼意見高進委員"},{"start":4278.066,"end":4299.142,"text":"高雄園覺得OK好 那我們這樣好不好 64條我們法環的部分先把它調高到最高嘛總是一個誠意嘛但是那個內容上這個到底票券有哪些因為其實體育藝文已經有專法對不對醫療票券掛號行為好像蠻特別的也應該用專法來處理啦所以我們剩下的內容的部分我們維持原條文這樣好不好該"},{"start":4305.933,"end":4328.607,"text":"沒有我們今天就先處理罰款的部分啦然後附帶決議的時候我們待會來做討論好不好我們待會一樣大家先看一下行政院的版本我們來做一下修改來看一下螢幕就改這兩個字就好啦下列也從一萬八改成三萬啦然後其他內容不變這樣可以嗎好那我們就照這個就變成委員會修正版本好我們修正通過謝謝再來"},{"start":4336.16,"end":4339.969,"text":"72條剛剛我們 兩位請坐我們不用罰站啦 大家都辛苦了"},{"start":4343.464,"end":4365.812,"text":"72條針對噪音的部分當然這個警政署剛剛的說明是第一個調高罰緩的部分尊重大院的決議嘛尊重委員的判斷那調高其實有好處但是實際上的問題當然在於實際上在執行的時候還是有些困難所以建議這個環境部修這個噪音管制法要做一些調整嘛那這個本席在那時候在在未還執行的時候也有提到這件事情那我們今天就回歸本職好不好"},{"start":4367.172,"end":4377.721,"text":"這個民眾黨這邊的提案是一萬八千元邱委員提一萬元對吧 對 一萬元大家覺得 我們就從重吧一萬八千元好嗎還是說大家有數字有想法的話"},{"start":4390.933,"end":4419.901,"text":"不是,你固定這樣,你一聲來聽,雖然是你這個會鑒定到問題是不是原意解剖,我怕你如果鑒下去的時候,跟出民黨會叫來,跟我們環境局環保局來,跟檢察局確定說滿百戶,然後檢察局,沒有啦,這個是,有的說以下啦,"},{"start":4420.816,"end":4422.698,"text":"好像有提供資料對不對有資料對不對"},{"start":4439.25,"end":4448.384,"text":"來 請那個署長說明一下112年 大概500件左右品茶道場有44萬人次的44萬這款五百件所以它的材料只有0.19"},{"start":4452.841,"end":4456.362,"text":"那113年來大概44萬名是警察罰的只有199件這個裁判率只有0.07所以委員你剛才說的那個標準一對沒有標準沒有儀器嘛"},{"start":4471.553,"end":4486.263,"text":"沒有標準啊,因為去查,是不是持續欠討,沒有,再持續,警察就把他罰,就做這樣的狀況就是,在這裡我就是說,那個標準,有沒有,有的大聲小聲的分配"},{"start":4487.924,"end":4512.72,"text":"對 這個是我們要跟環境部來做跨部協調看怎麼樣讓裁判標準清楚嘛但是在法條的規範裡面除了這個深夜喧嘩這一部分之外也有酗酒滋事啊 謾罵喧鬧啊有什麼善吹警笛 善罰警號啦那我是覺得這些罰六千其實也太輕了啦所以我是覺得把這個往上拉你至少聚眾滋事 酗酒鬧事是只罰六千我是覺得太少啦"},{"start":4513.308,"end":4522.19,"text":"那是不是深夜噪音不管你發多少都會有執行的問題嗎這我們上次討論其實大家都知道啦那這怎麼來優化這個當然就是要後續有一些行政的作為嘛"},{"start":4523.24,"end":4552.279,"text":"所以我們還是要針對還是要針對數額的部分有一個結論好不好 請照錄趙偉我覺得啦 你在公共場所齁啊你在那邊酗酒滋事 謾罵喧鬧不聽禁止這個重罰大家沒有意見啦齁但你如果深夜什麼製造噪音啦齁妨礙公眾安寧者這你如果真的一次要罰到一萬八我倒覺得這個一般民眾能不能接受啊你有可能"},{"start":4554.209,"end":4580.885,"text":"齁在家裡你也不知道這個有很多嘛樓上那個有時候那個我們現在舊的房子那個隔音不好對他可能跑步這就噪音囉這就警察就要去囉對啊這樣子如果說樓上的就在踩踩地板啊樓下說他吵啊罰一萬八這點我覺得大家要思考一下我我認為這個應該要要要稍微齁不是一視同仁的這樣子這樣子罰啦"},{"start":4583.854,"end":4604.866,"text":"好 警政署還有補充說明嗎我這個是一萬八以下嘛法者震動大運的決定對 但你有裁罰基準對不對有裁罰基準那大概就是下限大概從三百塊到六千那看以前的案例大概都五百塊到一千塊左右"},{"start":4606.327,"end":4628.515,"text":"之前的法輪 我看那個案例來的就真的有大 應該是講大廈噪音的這部分嘛 夜間喧嘩對 因為它很難界定 然後又會引發林立本身所以 也不會罰重所以也是從這個底下開始往上這樣子對 但在這裡面裡面最嚴重的應該還是聚眾鬧事跟警笛警號啦 來 李博一委員 然後蘇喬惠委員謝謝 那個署長謝謝齁"},{"start":4631.38,"end":4654.816,"text":"你剛剛講的那個數據讓我們了解到基層警察同仁的辛苦就是去年度就出了44萬人次去處理這些相關的噪音那可能這些問題但是你講的另外一個有裁罰的是幾百大概比例大概0.070.0幾這個代表什麼這個代表警察去的是有用"},{"start":4655.902,"end":4677.212,"text":"沒有用要罰的繼續鬧 繼續炒那就是要罰的嘛那是不是在這個執法上的標準上分成兩個第一個那如果檢訓署的同仁去檢察同仁去了之後那最低的開罰標準你是不是行政上可以做一些調整嘛第二個就是說"},{"start":4678.593,"end":4706.494,"text":"如果是樓上樓下 剛剛洪祿召委講樓上樓下如果我們提高到一萬八之後我們先講問題會出在哪裡問題會出在我樓下我被炒的我就主張你警察如果沒有開一萬八的罰單我就要檢舉你啊我就要檢舉你堵職啊我們會不會造成警察同仁更為難的去處理這些相關的這一些這一些我們所訂定出來的設置法所以這個我也希望大家可以大家再綜合討論跟調整一下謝謝"},{"start":4709.471,"end":4730.239,"text":"署長現在有發生說沒有罰六千我就要檢舉警察堵職這個事嗎應該不會啦因為這裁罰的是我們有裁量權有裁量權好我覺得一樣啦今天大家都已經是很認真在討論了但我們還是要回到一部法條你要看的時候要整部法條一起看"},{"start":4730.959,"end":4745.483,"text":"所以我們這個社違法這個從這個構成要件這些的講完了之後呢到63條以後開始來跟大家說什麼樣的行為要怎麼裁罰處罰還還是是屬拘留這樣的狀況那我們從63條來看比如說63條的項目是什麼他說無正當理由攜帶具有殺傷力之器械化學製品或其他危險物品者"},{"start":4755.325,"end":4783.612,"text":"然後是三日以下的拘留或新台幣三萬以下的罰款這個還包括說無正當理由開啟破壞門鎖窗之安全設備工具者哇這些事情是三萬好然後再來呢如果是意圖滋事意圖滋事囉然後於公園車站啊這個航空站等等啊聚眾啊等等之類的已受該管公務員解散命令而不解散是居處三日以下拘留然後新台幣一萬八"},{"start":4784.352,"end":4798.827,"text":"那如果大家這樣子一路一路看下去你看這個還有什麼對於非病死或可疑呀還有非病死或來歷不明的屍體未經報請相驗私自戀葬或疑似者也是三日以下拘留或一萬八"},{"start":4799.648,"end":4822.589,"text":"那一直一直往下看你就会开始看到刚刚说的这个贩售票券啊然后还有为虚位的通议啊或者68条是说无正当理由于公共场所房屋近旁焚火而有危害安全之余者三日以下拘留或一万两千元好我这下面我就不再继续念了大家可以这样看一下我的意思是说"},{"start":4823.209,"end":4832.382,"text":"有这些这些这些行为包括饰养危险动物啊然后妨碍交通妨碍桥梁的通行啊等等之类的他都各有民定这样的状况"},{"start":4833.376,"end":4859.373,"text":"也可以看得出來當時在寫這部法律的時候其實是有經過整體這樣一個一個一層一層各種犯罪行為之後他鋪排了一個他的處罰方式那今天我們因為在修法我們單挑了一則說噪音然後出來然後就給他說從過去當時鋪排的六千直接跳升到一萬八我覺得這樣不太合理啦"},{"start":4860.506,"end":4875.241,"text":"要修就要全部一起修不然的話我覺得只有這一條直接跳升到一萬八我覺得這樣有點奇怪沒有 我覺得我們為了要達成結論還是一樣要有版本如果就是說不是一萬八那哪個數字是比較好的"},{"start":4875.842,"end":4887.375,"text":"我覺得大家可以橫評啦那剛剛這樣聽起來如果不是一萬八也許我個人的話那如果主席你問我的話那我個人會看到這裡的話我覺得這種噪音這些啊其實跟這種什麼擅自損毀路燈交通耗製啊"},{"start":4891.539,"end":4909.746,"text":"這個其實是差不多的我個人覺得維持原條文六千但我要求要有附帶決議要這個要立轉法這個噪音的部分要處置因為今天的問題對社會處理噪音的問題不在於法緩的高低今天的問題是在噪音沒有辦法被檢測以至於沒有辦法處理"},{"start":4910.646,"end":4921.911,"text":"我覺得問題是在這裡大家要對症下藥不然的話即便我們現在把罰款在社會法提高到一萬八依然是處於無法處理的狀況我覺得我們剛剛討論都有一個誤區啦就是大家都只講深夜安寧嘛但這個事情還有"},{"start":4928.514,"end":4950.651,"text":"酗酒鬧事跟謾罵喧鬧嘛還有無正當理由散催警笛或散發警號嘛如果你用衡量性的標準我覺得這個要這個要增加因為我剛剛已經講了嘛就是說不管你怎麼修因為有儀器控管的問題跟實際執行的問題所以聲音安寧不管怎麼樣他都會有困難這個要另外處理啦所以我同意加一個附帶決議我覺得這OK啦但是我覺得至少什麼酗酒鬧事這種東西如果只有六間"},{"start":4951.852,"end":4974.101,"text":"我覺得蠻奇怪的啦我覺得蠻奇怪的所以是不是左語調高我可以同意因為大家一開始在討論的時候是針對噪音來處理對 這比較容易大家但如果現在聚焦到說我們現在本條的三項裡面我們要把它區分成第一項和第二項是一個層次然後把第三項這個家庭住宅附近環境的噪音留在一個層次那我也可以接受我可以同意這樣分兩層好 所以數字應該要怎麼辦還是我們要再冷靜一下想一下"},{"start":4982.321,"end":4996.202,"text":"第二項把它調高在第三項為止要不然你真的要先跟旁邊唱一首套OK唱一首套OK來反正就聽了嘛,換轉而已但是劇重比較往上調而已"},{"start":5003.001,"end":5023.061,"text":"如果是這樣子啦剛剛我們法案組委有給我一個建議啦就是說我們現在喔 前面不是都有寫說酗酒鬧事啊 謾罵宣鬧 不聽禁止 對不對我們如果把不聽禁止者有沒有 也把它放在第三項裡面也就是說製造噪音或深夜喧嘩妨礙公眾安寧者不聽禁止者然後把整體的罰則都往上加"},{"start":5024.386,"end":5036.251,"text":"這樣你在執行上面會不會比較平衡也就是說我去我們當然其實實務上的執行或什麼都是先勸導嘛這就不會說因為旁邊有人上卡拉OK一通電話過去就馬上要罰錢不會嘛因為有個不聽禁止的條文在那邊做一個主勸嘛"},{"start":5037.711,"end":5054.75,"text":"但是如果他還是這個因為其實實務上我們收到的大部分都是依然顧我啦所以我是覺得還是有一些調整的必要我剛剛看張志文委員張志文委員請好 謝謝主席那現在在討論的是有關這個社會法第72條可是我還是想說針對實務的部分"},{"start":5056.972,"end":5077.389,"text":"有關於噪音的部分我是不是可以來請教一下那因為現在最大的狀況是有時候深夜會突發的噪音非常嚴重然後民眾打電話檢舉了以後可能現場的這個就沒有聲音了然後警察離開了以後又開始又開始吵了所以噪音問題我想是民眾非常重要的一個一個"},{"start":5078.59,"end":5107.33,"text":"重點那內政部的報告也寫說這個現在希望說一般民眾在檢舉噪音案件的時候可以自行測量並記錄噪音的來源然後提供裁罰機關作為證據那因為現在每個人所持有的這個儀器可能不太一樣所以因為今天我想那個署長很辛苦可是我想要請教環境部是不是可以現在這邊大家討論的時候可不可以提出來說一般民眾到底要如何來"},{"start":5109.032,"end":5133.794,"text":"來記錄這樣的噪音的一個行為未來不管提供給警察或者是環境環保局做一個裁量的一個工具或是說現在政府環境部是不是有一個APP可以來給民眾來做一個蒐證的工具是不是可以請環境部來稍微解釋一下可不可以主席等一下請環境部說明一下來環境部"},{"start":5142.274,"end":5161.033,"text":"主席各位委員好那環境部在這邊做以下說明那其實我們主要已經把這個社會秩序維護法這邊所應用到其實它是不涉及儀器量測的因為就是它是屬於不連續性然後難以量測的這部分會歸到社會秩序維護法"},{"start":5161.914,"end":5179.553,"text":"那假如說儀器可以量測的話我們在照管法部分就會來做一個規範然後甚至相關的罰則這個是我們來處理那剛才委員所提到說是不是有一個量測的要記錄嘛其實記錄的話基本上它只要顯示應該是顯示出它一個樣態是屬於"},{"start":5181.135,"end":5207.259,"text":"不易量測或者是不延續的比如說有狗叫啊或者是我們講說可能突然發生了什麼聲音那但是這種這種啊其實是儀器量呢他在這個量的時候其實他也沒有辦法來說明他超過標準但是他可以顯現出一個狀況就是他確實是不易量測而且造成這個那個影響者呢他"},{"start":5208.279,"end":5228.412,"text":"因為這樣子造成他的這個非常困擾的這種感受那用這個來做一些輔助的說明那以上是這樣建議 以上好 謝謝那個"},{"start":5236.192,"end":5240.754,"text":"好 我們大家稍微討論一下 還有沒有委員或是官員意見要補充的"},{"start":5262.72,"end":5288.737,"text":"我建議一下啦 這樣子好不好我們剛剛私底下大家有討論一下就是有下列各行為影響者除以一萬兩千元以下的罰款第一 公共場所 公眾出入場所 酗酒滋事 漫漫圈道 不聽禁止者第二 我們把噪音這一段拉到第二項好不好就是製造噪音或深夜宣法 妨礙公眾來臨 不聽禁止者第三 無正當理由 散推警笛或散發其他警號 換個順序啦第二款 第三款 順序對調"},{"start":5291.445,"end":5311.434,"text":"好不好 如果是這樣子呢 大家覺得怎麼樣這樣可以齁對嘛 這樣有不聽禁止者嘛在比例原則上面他就會比較合理一點因為實務上他也是吃爆汗就是要去啊去就是勸啦 其實都一樣啦"},{"start":5312.359,"end":5326.271,"text":"報告委員我們的實務經驗大家都知道找警察來是要解決糾紛不是為了要開罰單對啦所以實務上對您說不好意思我剛在跟那個署長在講的時候不聽禁止是誰禁止還是勸阻"},{"start":5329.778,"end":5353.684,"text":"通常都是勸和啦就是說你不要再遭噪音然後就好啦我也不開罰單那但是就是剛剛張委員還是誰提到說警察走了又再來啦那這個就是勸阻啦你說禁止改成勸阻一阻因為禁止是一個很...第一項的禁止是原條文的對我們是比照第一項的法律文字啦"},{"start":5356.096,"end":5385.183,"text":"那就是表示是警察來禁止那如果是譬如說管委會管委會管委會有自律如果說是公益大廈管理條例的話管委會他沒有警察權管委會沒有公權力啦所以到最後執行一定還是警察來處理對啊但是也有里長就是我的意思是說那種照一一而再再而三他一定是從里長開始啊然後再來到警察但我沒有意見啦如果大家覺得禁止是可以的話那就是警可是這樣給警察太大的責任"},{"start":5387.926,"end":5397.091,"text":"主席 我覺得聽到保庭的說法 我覺得警察已經很沒用了把你變成這件事 都要給警察處理了這樣就糟糕了警察一天來處理出名單位的暗示炒啦 孩子背啦 孩子哭啦 破解毒品囚啦 破解什麼不關事 一直卡電話 叫警察來警察什麼都不要做"},{"start":5416.417,"end":5441.333,"text":"被反駁 叫他還沒贏啦 醫生我覺得啦 大家講的都有道理 也要考量實際的情況啦也不要變成這個社會法 到時候變成人民跟警察無所適從我建議啦 條文就這樣子修 但是我覺得罰款大概一萬塊我覺得 要折衷一下啦 比較大家可以接受啦"},{"start":5443.223,"end":5447.427,"text":"好 張宏祿委員建議就是說一萬 罰款一萬我徵詢一下大家的意見好啦 我們還是要有進展我們行政機關又有想法嗎好 我們就以委員會討論為主好不好可以嗎 那我最後再做一次支持罰款增加嘛 好 謝謝"},{"start":5469.734,"end":5486.484,"text":"處理樣態做一個比較完整的規範處理的樣態還是要考慮到我們的警察同仁能夠做得到啦否則就是變成是講那我覺得留一個記錄好不好我們現在就是說依照現在本次修正條文的文字我們委員會的共識其實應該是一調高罰緩二"},{"start":5489.526,"end":5514.905,"text":"我们就现在警察处理的形式并没有增加太多的改变我们没有对现行警察的处置方式改变我们反而是因为罚缓金额调高后增加了第二项是要到制造噪音的时候要到不听禁止才进入到罚缓的阶段"},{"start":5516.267,"end":5542.549,"text":"對我們的行為人的話行為人對行為人我們本件嘛行為人就製造噪音者來講的話他的罰環有被調高但他要經過一次的禁止因為他有不聽才會進入到被罰環的狀態這是行為人的部分但是對於過去的執行者執法者也就是警察同仁辛苦的警察同仁而言他們的執行內容及樣態並沒有在本次修法並沒有做任何的改變和要求"},{"start":5543.149,"end":5571.48,"text":"目前對警政署我們委員之間的共識是這樣不曉得我們的理解是否相同來請署長那我的看法是這樣子就是說實務上去處理這一些這個噪音也就是民眾報案的那如果不聽禁止可能會去兩趟所以是不是這個就不要再不要照原來的這樣就好了就不要再不聽禁止再提高罰款就好去採糧反而採糧"},{"start":5573.444,"end":5597.763,"text":"各位覺得咧一次就罰了一次就罰了再等兩次不去兩趟我第一次去給你勸導你不聽我已經回去再來第二次這樣的是這樣子啦就是說以實務上來講不管罰環的調整等等大家去其實都是先勸嘛但是因為你以現行的條文先勸很有可能勸的是未果啦"},{"start":5599.984,"end":5624.133,"text":"來來來你會講說有不聽禁止下一次來就罰勸的效果會變好啦我在想是這樣啦不是啦署長這個我覺得啦我們不要有先入為主啦你會覺得說他第一次去勸他都不會聽啦但也有可能他勸了他就聽了啊請提問署長你講這個大家是為這個執法的"},{"start":5627.855,"end":5647.807,"text":"明確性來增加這幾個字那署長反而覺得可能會造成這個基層員警的這些工作上的負擔那我再講再務實一點的說我今天晚上已經為了你這一戶來一次了那我已經回到派出所回到警察局了"},{"start":5648.487,"end":5671.569,"text":"又來檢舉又來報案又吵了我再去就是要罰了這個意思是這樣你也沒有辦法保證說你沒有加這個條文下去那個我們的基人同仁去到現場就可以會直接開罰他也不知道他會不會再被檢舉一次再被叫回去啊所以我們其實利益是這樣子希望說可以有效的喝止"},{"start":5672.469,"end":5696.557,"text":"對要不然他可能今天晚上可能要去三次五次都有可能因為你要反覆勸導嘛你再思考一下那我們還是會尊重相關的這些昨夜的這些實際的狀況我們尊重尊重好謝謝那我72條下列各項行為質疑者處新台幣1萬元以下是法環一 於公共場所或公眾得出入職場所需求鬧事 謾罵喧鬧不聽禁止者"},{"start":5697.657,"end":5717.27,"text":"二 製造噪音或深夜喧嘩 妨害公眾安寧不聽禁止者三 無正當理由 善追警笛或煽發其他警號者請問這樣 有沒有問題好 我們照修正條文通過 謝謝最後一條 跟騷一樣啦 這個就是罰則啦大家要休息一下嗎"},{"start":5718.394,"end":5737.254,"text":"還是我們就趕救不要休息了然後來這個提高到三萬我看大家應該沒什麼特別提高到三萬啦好不好那我們照魯明哲委員版本通過可以嗎沒有咧來行政機關意見出來"},{"start":5738.652,"end":5755.915,"text":"最高三萬啊 魯冰州委員三萬啊其他有些超過有 他有寫到十萬的那個是延寬和委員的版本有委員的版本到十萬我知道 就是三萬所以我在講有下列各款刑懷之役的主三十以下拘留或新來幣三萬以下是罰還"},{"start":5760.037,"end":5769.34,"text":"是喔 拘留的部分應該是因為現在假新聞都要拘留三天啊對不對我這樣比例上是這樣啊沒有 就不要來 聽一下大家的意見好不好聽一下大家的意見"},{"start":5778.589,"end":5798.561,"text":"這個跟追的這個行為現在設置法是一個行政比較行政法所以如果這個行為的話如果要納入比較限制人民自由的部分我們建議是不要納進來不要納進來我們的看法是這樣子那至於提高挖款就尊重大英的這個決定"},{"start":5800.748,"end":5823.683,"text":"好 聽聽大家意見 請問各位委員增加防範OK 拘留的部分呢欸 署長你可不可以再補充一下 那個現行的狀況 因為就是"},{"start":5824.778,"end":5853.291,"text":"我們上次我記得我們質詢的時候其實有提到嘛還是有蠻多其實還是有蠻多的樣態嘛對不對食物商在執行的時候裁罰的狀況怎麼樣我記得是大概只有每年大概只有30件這10年來這10年來大概總共大概300件一年大概只有30件這個數量也是很少一年30件一年30件差不多300件"},{"start":5863.359,"end":5889.388,"text":"如果我多一個問題好不好就是說大家思考一下就是說因為跟蹤騷擾這件事情如果它只是一個什麼偶發行為那可能你用拘留的罰太重但是如果是因為通常跟蹤騷擾感覺是鎖定嘛就是我對這個人特別有興趣就一直黏著他他如果是一個長期的行為的時候我們只有罰緩的話會不會不夠這是不是請警政署長說明一下那個那個幫我招來現在就是這個"},{"start":5891.617,"end":5916.143,"text":"裡面的這個第二項就是跟蹤跟騷擾因為我們現在已經有跟騷法了嘛所以這裡面的原條文是不要不要動不要不要動因為希望不要不要進因為跟騷法裡面就本來就要把它分開了不然你這會定義上會混淆那至於未來對於這個處罰的這種額度這個部分我們應該尊重大院的這個決定"},{"start":5919.281,"end":5943.419,"text":"主席 現在署長說的更三環已經有了啦那現在就是說他提高金額他沒有意見是不是這樣是是這樣也是所以一樣就比照剛剛嘛 樣態上我們不做調整是三環以下罰款或申請好 第一聽大家拍拍那邊的意見"},{"start":5945.213,"end":5958.061,"text":"到底要不要拘留長時間的話的樣態有沒有辦法被防守住我要問的是這個啦就是跟追他的人如果是一個偶發事件你就要拘留對 他確實可能太重但他如果是一個我就是鎖定某些人做跟追等等"},{"start":5959.469,"end":5975.282,"text":"會不會有這個問題啦我剛剛問的問題我需要得到一個解答這個是這樣嘛齁但耕燒法有更明確的定義嘛要有更重的處罰嘛對啦所以如果說長期的那一種的應該是回到耕燒法裡面的"},{"start":5977.523,"end":5995.369,"text":"不對 我剛才有質詢跟騷法是在處理與性或性別有關係的所以我們現在是如果它本件它不是性或性別有關的跟蹤騷擾的時候它就必須回到涉違法所以我覺得"},{"start":5996.949,"end":6019.95,"text":"拘留某種程度等於是把這兩個人隔開也就是在這個根梢法裡面的這種什麼禁止相對人要保持要有一定的距離啊等等的這個那如果這個就是把他們隔開嘛那如果如果他是一個禍也就是裁量空間的話有拘留有罰還"},{"start":6022.27,"end":6050.928,"text":"那也不是不行喔跟騷髮好像有一個範圍啦跟性有關啦好那這樣子的話呢大家覺得怎麼樣稍微是不是我們請司法院表示一下意見好請來司法司法院還是法務部法務部法務部"},{"start":6052.153,"end":6077.187,"text":"廖參事再次登場我跟他越來越熟了跟委員報告一下就是說跟蹤騷擾法它的定義是比涉違法是更窄的因為它的要件設限比較多那如果不屬於跟騷法的才會回到涉違法這邊來嗎大概就是這樣的邏輯"},{"start":6081.342,"end":6104.269,"text":"那拘留跟划還就是兩種不同性質的處罰拘留是自由法那拘留是財產法那到底要採哪一個這個是我們尊重主管都可以做嘛對不對沒有這本來就是一個立法權限就是說法治上沒有說不行但是要不要放進去"},{"start":6106.796,"end":6118.571,"text":"我講必須要尊重主管因為這部法是主管機關在執法他們具有執法的經驗是不是需要這樣的協議所以我們尊重主管機關的他是意思說可以啦尊重主管機關嘛"},{"start":6125.519,"end":6153.844,"text":"來 部長請補充如果要問我的意見我是建議說我們已經把那個罰款提高到三萬如果還是有這樣的樣態要變成有拘留的時候再來處理啦我為什麼要這樣講第一個現在大部分都是屬於跟騷法比較多跟追真的沒有那麼多那你局限人身自由其實在台灣是一個講究自由人權的狀態之下真的比較不好啦"},{"start":6154.464,"end":6173.101,"text":"我的意思是說錢先罰高一點啦我沒有意見我的意思是說站在我的立場上面因為你現在把跟追的部分要放到拘留那到時候噪音也要來增加變成拘留啦因為噪音也是常常會發生你旁邊只要有KTV店天天都有噪音的人要來檢舉啦"},{"start":6174.782,"end":6190.659,"text":"所以我是建議說局限人身自由的部分還是比較審慎來看待會比較好那這個當然是由大院的我們來做決定我們可以支持部長的建議然後我們就一步一步啦一步一步 逐步來處理各位還有意見嗎"},{"start":6192.679,"end":6207.929,"text":"好 那我們再看一下89條下列各項各款行為質疑者處新台幣3萬元以下罰款獲勝屆一 無證當理由為人失催眠術或是疑惑者二 無證當理由跟隨他人經勸阻不聽者可以嗎好 麻煩趙文會修正條文通過"},{"start":6208.988,"end":6231.335,"text":"等一下還沒附帶決議大家桌上有一個願板的但我們剛剛討論的時候其實有講嘛你不要去把黃牛票講說不要規範在這裡面嘛因為它有一個補破網的機制所以我是建議把那個以再由社會秩序維護法加以規範這樣去移除然後最後把請個還沒念完就好"},{"start":6234.029,"end":6246.813,"text":"說請各該票卷之主管機關就各主管票卷之黃牛行為於兩個月內研議修法以其中院內管理與查辦處與雙管齊下一支黃牛生產可以嗎可以好高鐵要跑來簽還有一個還有一個趕快還有這個"},{"start":6258.134,"end":6270.61,"text":"沒有我上一次是宣誓的我覺得也可以啦高經委員意思是講說要守住基本原則所以要加強專職人力跟調查機制啦我覺得這個通過應該是沒有問題啦好不好這個你們看一下內容如果沒有我們就簽過去這樣比較簡單就是"},{"start":6276.107,"end":6292.578,"text":"沒有 他講不一樣的面向嘛一個是我們要加強各主管機關的專法這個是各個機關要加強人力跟實際執行啦就是宣示啦 我覺得是OK的好 請各位委員趕快剛剛我們修正跟附帶決議的部分我們趕快做簽名處理好 我們附帶決議兩項大家 我們就通過好不好好 我們來宣讀協商結論囉"},{"start":6305.282,"end":6305.585,"text":"妳要上嗎"},{"start":6318.034,"end":6318.815,"text":"嘿嘿嘿嘿"},{"start":6351.002,"end":6360.418,"text":"來,站起來槍來,小慧,你借一個槍"},{"start":6367.841,"end":6395.367,"text":"來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":6395.964,"end":6397.505,"text":"沒有啦,這都是工的啦"},{"start":6421.147,"end":6421.367,"text":"這裏就有裝飾"},{"start":6442.196,"end":6458.428,"text":"好謝謝報告委員會我們現在宣讀協商結論請宣讀社會秩序委員會法部分條文修正草案第九條修正通過第六十四條修正通過第七十二條第八十九條修正通過通過附帶決議兩項好請問各位委員照剛剛的協商結論通過請問有異議"},{"start":6462.886,"end":6490.493,"text":"謝謝無異議通過那我們做以下決議討論四項社會秩序維護法第64條條文修正草案等11案以並按審查完據你據審查報告提報院會討論請問在場委員要不要經過檔單協商不用謝謝本案與院會討論時由本席劉昭吉委員許庭做補充說明審查通過後之條文相關法制用語授權主管主席及議事人員進行整理好那麼本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":6493.599,"end":6502.731,"text":"我們就越來越早都回家了晚上就沒辦法早餐晚上晚上要早餐就沒辦法"},{"start":6507.037,"end":6534.982,"text":"今天我不會讓他吃 今天我不會讓他吃對啊 每天的那些都遭到壓力都多大謝謝 謝謝市長 辛苦了 辛苦了可以可以 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答不出來來 換一個陸委會來答答看"},{"start":260.455,"end":270.957,"text":"五個總統無選 搞不好無選五啦 你打五個也可以啦哪一個這個可能不涉及到陸委會的執政不涉及到 萊豪請部長這個不是我們法務部主管的業務 我沒辦法回答這個問題我告訴你啦 就算沒有嘗試 也可以常看新聞"},{"start":287.116,"end":315.157,"text":"就算不了解狀況我相信所有的社會現狀的報導各位都心知肚明只是你們說不出這句話人家經濟學人講的社會劇烈對抗其所本是什麼身為一個總統他有和諧跟團結國家的高度象徵意義他竟然具名發文"},{"start":316.243,"end":344.805,"text":"以黨主席身份要求全黨公職來投入對在野黨的大罷免我跟你講這不就是創造中共的可趁之機嗎李登輝做不到陳水扁做不到馬英九當然做不到蔡英文也做不到就我們現在賴清德總統做得到"},{"start":348.804,"end":371.025,"text":"難怪我告訴你今天台灣情況越來越危險因為當一個總統把所有的心力都放在罷免在野黨搜索所有在野黨的黨部全國性搜索各個在野黨的黨部"},{"start":372.128,"end":394.985,"text":"我還要再問一下局長 我一樣給你這個五個題目啦李登輝總統曾經他主政的時候的檢調有搜索全部的在野黨黨部他有去搜嗎 有沒有有沒有這個跟我國安局的職長是沒有相關的所以我們我告訴你沒有啦告訴你沒有啦陳隨便也沒有啦馬英九也沒有啦"},{"start":402.023,"end":429.381,"text":"就我們戴清德總統然後剛剛我看很多的詢答一而再再而三強調 勿往勿重啊勿往勿重啊我要回頭說今天不只經濟學人提出這樣一個說法美國的外交政策網站刊登華府卡內基國際和平基金研究員的文章他說川普應遏止台灣"},{"start":431.431,"end":460.491,"text":"然後說賴清哲總統不斷強調台灣主權獨立一步步增進北京動武風險要川普總統仿效布希時期做法要求台北自治以維持台海穩定避免美國遭受波及捲入戰爭這個觀點有人認同有人不認同但是不管是認同跟不認同說真的我們的外交跟國安部門都要去警覺一件事情"},{"start":461.923,"end":490.608,"text":"美國有這樣的聲音存在對我們絕對不是一件好事這一點我相信國安局應該認同吧有這樣的聲音存在應該對台灣不是好事吧是不是這總會是國安相關事務了吧我想任何的一個評論當然我們都會收集會做一個研判謝謝你 作為幕僚很辛苦我們留我們的部長其他的請回"},{"start":494.4,"end":517.69,"text":"部長 共諜案連環報 總統府立法院外交部都被滲透國安機密從總統府跟外交國安首長身邊源源的流向對岸我看這件事情我是很有感觸 為什麼因為我在總統府工作過 我曾經擔任總統府的副秘書長"},{"start":520.014,"end":547.026,"text":"尤其像何仁傑他擔任吳釗燮幕僚長達13年靠吳釗燮一路提拔進入總統府外交部國安會那吳釗燮在外交部長任內六年斷八國我們國安局長也請來一下 國安局的副局長那麼我想請教我們的外交策略跟戰略布局總統外交初期的規劃的機密"},{"start":550.609,"end":578.832,"text":"不是被北京當局精準掌握了嗎有沒有這個風險 請問我們的副局長是 當然是有這個風險所以在政府總統的隨乎安全人員是我們特別要在安全考核的一個對象然後我要告訴你另外一件事情事實上我們賴清德總統面對這件事情他的回應"},{"start":580.54,"end":596.042,"text":"我也想請教一下他說執政黨的黨工都是收買對象在野黨也一樣各行各業都是中國的收買對象然後但是目前我看到被揭露做中共內應的"},{"start":597.802,"end":624.278,"text":"主要就是吳釗燮秘書長辦公室的何仁傑總統府總統辦公室的姿意吳尚宇立法院前院長游錫堃辦公室助理盛楚英民進黨民主學院前副主任邱士源以及新北市議員李語典特助黃曲榮等五人當然我知道你們一定說個案不洩露啦但是我要講一件事情"},{"start":627.623,"end":652.468,"text":"還有其他人涉案嗎我這個問題你一定說個案不介入啦可是我就要問一個問題第一個有沒有跟我們的吳釗燮秘書長好好的談一談了解一下我們現在到底泄密的範圍有多大我還沒講搜索啦我沒有講搜索我只是說起碼跟吳釗燮秘書長談一談有沒有做這件事情有沒有"},{"start":654.253,"end":676.693,"text":"這個是偵辦的個案 所以我們也不便去做一個說明偵辦的個案 其實我跟你講如果是在總統府 我在總統府的時候我們的外交官發生這種事情我告訴你 我做總統府發言人 我一定有出來說明的義務沒有叫你交代細節"},{"start":678.683,"end":702.417,"text":"你起碼告訴國人今天吳釗燮我坦蕩蕩我也接受相關單位的詢問來幫忙協助做損害控管我不知道為什麼連這一件事情都做不到照你所說的否認那我解讀是沒有喔這個是沒做囉是這樣嗎部長"},{"start":707.95,"end":733.598,"text":"我沒辦法去這是個案嘛 就是回到了個案嘛你個案講了一萬遍有對啊 這個個案我沒辦法說好啦 沒關係 我告訴你你一貫就用個案來講但是我還是要講一件事情國人有知的權利我也不是在怪我們今天的法務部啊 國安局啊或是我們的檢調機關啊而是今天"},{"start":735.046,"end":745.318,"text":"怎麼會總統府這件事情沒藥沒金呢真的如果我是在總統府的時候這個事情媒體不可能放過我啦"},{"start":746.26,"end":770.09,"text":"我也不可能交代案情 我站出來不會說 不會啦 我跟你講我們的這個國安會秘書長 我們總統府的那個 我們的總統我們都已經1510 ABCDEFG五項 六項 七項的一個洩密範圍我們都已經跟這個司法單位已經說了我不可能透露到這麼細呀但是起碼安定國人的心這件事總要做嘛"},{"start":772.881,"end":799.435,"text":"就像部長喔 如果部裡發生什麼狀況你要安定民心的話 你部裡的發言人總要出來說話嘛對不對 沒錯吧我不是講個案啦 一些重大的法務部的重大事件你的部裡發言人要不要出來說一下我們法務部應該不會發生重大事件吧不會不會 你是太小看法務部了你太小看法務部 沒關係啦 我告訴你啦"},{"start":801.499,"end":822.766,"text":"就這麼一個道理嘛然後接下來我跟你講喔然後因為共諜案頻傳啊我覺得部長都訓練很好都不談個案可是我們的總統沒有啊直接一刀就是說在野黨也有啊在野黨有沒有總統說的對不對請問我們副局長"},{"start":826.27,"end":834.955,"text":"從歷次歷年來的一個統計執政黨或在野黨都有發生謝謝 你現在又補個案了因為總統講的話你也得要跟不是 我告訴你你作為總統你跟我講在野黨的個案是哪些 你告訴我你要知道總統府是總統府 國安會 外交部"},{"start":851.65,"end":874.691,"text":"你不要跟我講路人夾一筆你抓到共諜你要去跟總統府的幕僚比我要跟你講今天涉及的這個所謂的共諜案的總統府的辦公室之一吳尚宇還有我們這個吳釗燮的幕僚何仁傑我想請問你們他們是公務員嗎是正式的公務員嗎這種回答要出來吧"},{"start":878.601,"end":888.17,"text":"是不是方便由考試院或人總來做一個說明可以啊 沒關係 有單位說明就好來 有在嗎 人總我也好是嗎 他們是考國家考試進來的公務員嗎"},{"start":901.378,"end":928.804,"text":"委員您剛問的是吳尚宇啊他們是聘用人員答對了聘用人員是依照聘用條例經用所以不是依據任用法經用的人員非常好你看我們的人事人總回答得多清楚來請回謝謝你副局長我跟你講這個其實不用人總回啦你不可能不知道你們如果連這個都沒有掌握我就覺得會有一點小遺憾但是沒有關係啦我要先講一件事情"},{"start":930.41,"end":956.85,"text":"這些人其實都是從民進黨帶來的機要有時候我都覺得對我們現在公務單位有時候他們還是間接被連累感覺好像總統府被滲透 國安會被滲透不是 抱歉是賴清德的幕僚被滲透是吳釗燮的政治機要幕僚被滲透因為他們都是聘用的都不是文官系統出來的"},{"start":958.723,"end":985.446,"text":"所以我回頭講最後要講一件事情啦就是說基本上我當然支持啊你今天好好查辦所有的共諜但是另外一方面我也真的非常感慨啦我剛剛前面講了很多東西不管是罷免不管是對在野黨黨部的搜索這種所謂大殺四方的總統我只在賴清德身上看見以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1107,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時16分）主席，有請外交部、陸委會、國安局、法務部。"],["主席：請外交部、陸委會、國安局、法務部。"],["羅委員智強：經濟學人日前有一篇文章說，一場有關臺灣的超級強權危機即將來臨，它指出三大因素會將臺灣置於險境，其中有一部分說到，臺灣政府政治失能，成為中共灰色戰術企圖利用的弱點，也提到賴清德總統的強硬反制進一步加劇社會撕裂，讓中共有機可趁。我想請教一下各個部會，你們都是作為我們總統非常重要，不管是對內的治安，或是對於國家安全的重要幕僚單位，你們對於經濟學人這一篇文章的看法是什麼？先請外交部好了。"],["呂處長世壹：委員好。我是外交部人事處處長，對於這個部分，因為不在我們今天的業管範圍裡面，所以我沒有評論，謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：好。來，我們請陸委會。"],["周處長鳴瑞：委員好。對於任何涉及到國家安全，我們都是非常慎重以待。"],["羅委員智強：好。請國安局。"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。我想國安就是全體人民的國安，我們認為有關於國安的部分，一定要特別重視。"],["羅委員智強：好。請我們的部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想國安的問題是現在大家全民最關注的，凡有涉及一些建議，未來我們都會參採，謝謝委員。"],["羅委員智強：是。難怪經濟學人這麼寫了，這四位的回答跟沒回答也沒有差別太多，但沒關係，能不能回去也準備一個書面，看看你們怎麼去應對經濟學人這樣的說法？一個重點，賴清德總統，尤其對國內我們一些政治狀態的許多作法，加劇了社會的撕裂，也讓中共有機可趁。","我來請教國安局，事實上，不管是哪一位總統在任，中共對臺的威脅一直都存在，沒錯吧！"],["黃副局長明昭：是。"],["羅委員智強：但是，今天中共對臺的威脅有一個非常重要的著力點，就是當臺灣內部政治鬥爭、政治對抗越加激烈，臺灣的社會開始進入分化情況之下，是不是中共相對就比較有機可趁了？對不對？"],["黃副局長明昭：當然，我們內部的安定確實對中共的滲透，或者對我們的打擊是一個很大的……"],["羅委員智強：沒錯！所以我想問一個問題，請問李登輝前總統跟陳水扁前總統、馬英九前總統，跟蔡英文前總統，再加上我們現在的賴清德總統，有哪一個總統在他總統任內以黨主席的身分，下令要求全黨公職來推動在野黨的大罷免？哪一個總統有做這件事情？答不出來？換一個陸委會來答答看。五個總統，五選幾，搞不好五選五，你答五個也可以啦！哪一個？"],["周處長鳴瑞：報告委員，這個可能不涉及陸委會的職掌。"],["羅委員智強：喔，不涉及。來，我請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是我們法務部主管的業務，我沒辦法回答這個問題。"],["羅委員智強：非常好！我告訴你啦！就算沒有常識，也可以常看新聞，就算不了解狀況，我相信所有社會現狀的報導，各位都心知肚明，只是你們說不出這句話。人家經濟學人講的社會劇烈對抗，其所本是什麼？身為一個總統，他有和諧跟團結國家的高度象徵意義，他竟然具名發文，以黨主席身分要求全黨公職投入對在野黨的大罷免，我跟你講，這不就創造中共的可趁之機嗎？李登輝做不到，陳水扁做不到，馬英九當然做不到，蔡英文也做不到，就我們現在的賴清德總統做得到，難怪今天臺灣的情況越來越危險，因為當一個總統把所有心力都放在罷免在野黨、搜索所有在野黨黨部，全國性搜索各個在野黨黨部……我來問一下局長，我一樣給你五個題目，李登輝總統主政時候的檢調有搜索全部在野黨黨部嗎？有沒有？"],["黃副局長明昭：這個跟我國安局的職掌是沒有相關的，所以我們沒辦法回答。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，沒有啦！告訴你，沒有！陳水扁也沒有啦！馬英九也沒有啦！就我們賴清德總統。然後剛剛我看到很多詢答，一而再、再而三強調毋枉毋縱！我又回頭說，今天不只經濟學人提出這樣一個說法，美國的外交政策網站刊登華府卡內基國際和平基金研究員的文章，他說川普應遏止臺灣，然後說賴清德總統不斷強調臺灣主權獨立，一步步增進北京動武風險，要川普總統仿效布希時期作法，要求臺北自制，以維持臺海穩定，避免美國遭受波及，捲入戰爭。這個觀點有人認同，有人不認同，但是不管是認同跟不認同，說真的，我們的外交跟國安部門都要去警覺一件事情，美國有這樣的聲音存在，對我們絕對不是一件好事，這一點我相信國安局應該認同吧？有這樣的聲音存在，應該對臺灣不是好事吧？是不是？這總該是國安相關事務了吧？"],["黃副局長明昭：我想任何一個評論，當然我們都會蒐集、會研判。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你，作為幕僚很辛苦。好，我們留部長，其他的請回。","部長，共諜案連環爆，總統府、立法院、外交部都被滲透，國安機密從總統府跟外交、國安首長身邊源源的流向對岸。我看這件事情，我是很有感觸，為什麼？因為我在總統府工作過，我曾經擔任總統府的副秘書長，尤其像何仁傑，他擔任吳釗燮幕僚長達13年，靠吳釗燮一路提拔進入總統府、外交部、國安會，吳釗燮在外交部長任內，6年斷8國！國安局副局長也請來一下，我想請教，我們的外交策略跟戰略布局、總統外交出擊規劃的機密，不是被北京當局精準掌握了嗎？有沒有這個風險？請問副局長。"],["黃副局長明昭：是，當然是有這個風險，所以正、副總統的隨扈安全人員是我們要特別加以安全考核的對象。"],["羅委員智強：然後我要告訴你另外一件事情，事實上，我們賴清德總統面對這件事情的回應，我也想請教一下。他說，執政黨的黨工都是收買對象，在野黨也一樣，各行各業都是中國的收買對象，但是目前我看到被揭露做中共內應的，主要就是吳釗燮秘書長辦公室的何仁傑、總統府總統辦公室的諮議吳尚雨、立法院前院長游錫堃辦公室助理盛礎纓、民進黨民主學院前副主任邱世元，以及新北市議員李余典特助黃取榮等五人。當然我知道你們一定說個案不洩露，但是我要講一件事情，還有其他人涉案嗎？我這個問題，你一定說個案不介入，可是我就要問一個問題，第一個，有沒有跟吳釗燮秘書長好好談一談，了解一下現在到底洩密的範圍有多大？我還沒講搜索，我只是說起碼要跟吳釗燮秘書長談一談，有沒有做這件事情？有沒有？"],["黃副局長明昭：這個是偵辦的個案，所以我們也不便說明。"],["羅委員智強：偵辦的個案。其實我跟你講，如果是我在總統府的時候，我們的外交、國安發生這種事情，我作為總統府發言人，我一定有出來說明的義務。我沒有叫你交代細節，你起碼要告訴國人，今天吳釗燮坦蕩蕩，他也接受相關單位的詢問，來幫忙協助做損害控管。我不知道為什麼連這一件事情都做不到，照你所說的否認，我的解讀是沒有，這件事沒做，是這樣嗎？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法去……這是個案，就是回到個案……"],["羅委員智強：你個案講了1萬遍有了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對啊，這個是個案，我沒辦法……"],["羅委員智強：好啦，沒關係，你一貫就用個案來講，但是我還是要講一件事情，國人有知的權利，我也不是在怪法務部、國安局或是檢調機關，而是今天總統府怎麼會對這件事情無關緊要呢？真的！如果是我在總統府的時候，這個事情媒體不可能放過我，我也不可能交代案情，我站出來也不會說，我們的國安會秘書長、總統府、總統都已經一五一十、ABCDEFG、5項、6項、7項的洩密範圍跟司法單位說了，我不可能透露到這麼細，但是起碼安定國人的心，這件事總要做。就像部長，如果部裡發生什麼狀況，你要安定民心的話，部裡的發言人總要出來說話，對不對？沒錯吧？我不是講個案，一些法務部的重大事件，部裡的發言人要不要出來說一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們法務部應該不會發生重大事件。"],["羅委員智強：不會？你太小看法務部了，沒關係，我告訴你，就是這麼一個道理。接下來，因為共諜案頻傳，我覺得部長都訓練得很好、都不談個案，可是我們的總統沒有，直接一刀就說在野黨也有，在野黨有沒有？總統說的對不對？請問副局長。"],["黃副局長明昭：從歷年來的統計，執政黨或在野黨都有發生。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝，你現在又不個案了，因為總統講的話你也得要跟。不是，我告訴你，作為總統，你跟我講在野黨個案是哪些？你要知道這是總統府、國安會、外交部，你不要跟我講路人甲、乙、丙抓到共諜，要去跟總統府的幕僚比，今天涉及所謂共諜案的總統府辦公室諮議吳尚雨，還有吳釗燮的幕僚何仁傑，我想請問你們，他們是公務員嗎？是正式的公務員嗎？這總回答的出來吧？"],["黃副局長明昭：是不是方便由考試院或人總來說明？"],["羅委員智強：可以，沒關係，有單位說明就好。人總有在嗎？"],["李處長花書：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：是嗎？他們是考國家考試進來的公務員嗎？"],["李處長花書：不好意思，委員，你剛剛問的是……"],["羅委員智強：吳尚雨。"],["李處長花書：他們是聘用人員。"],["羅委員智強：答對了。"],["李處長花書：聘用人員是依照聘用人員聘用條例進用，所以不是依據任用法進用的。"],["羅委員智強：對，非常好，你看我們的人總回答得多清楚，請回，謝謝。","副局長，我跟你講，這個其實不用人總回答，你不可能不知道，你們如果連這個都沒有掌握，我就覺得會有一點小遺憾，但是沒有關係，我要先講一件事情，這些人其實都是從民進黨帶來的機要，有時候我都覺得我們現在的公務單位還間接被連累，感覺好像總統府被滲透、國安會被滲透，不是！抱歉！是賴清德的幕僚被滲透，是吳釗燮的政治機要幕僚被滲透，因為他們都是聘用的，都不是文官系統出來的。所以我回頭講，最後講一件事情，基本上，我當然支持好好查辦所有的共諜案，但是另外一方面，我也真的非常感慨，我剛剛前面講了很多東西，不管是罷免，不管是對在野黨黨部的搜索，這種所謂大殺四方的總統，我只在賴清德身上看見，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：調查局局長，我剛剛質詢的時候有提到績效核分的那個事情，我想麻煩局長今天下午能夠提供給我們核分的項目表，因為那個是一定有的資料，請提供給我們，裡面要有級距等比較細緻的規定，給我們電子檔就可以，再麻煩給我辦公室。"],["陳局長白立：好，OK。"],["主席：謝謝局長。","所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束，委員質詢時有要求提供相關資料或以書面答復，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。委員徐欣瑩所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":353,"meetingDate":["2025-05-05"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法\n院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘\n部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜\n滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00007"}}},{"id":"160953","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160953","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38e90b73e994f9b774b7dd363a0c967f7d3e2c5f8a9bba8e627b44cbce2319d13b03e28eaf265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謝謝主席那我先請部長 保護部長 謝謝麻煩部長"},{"start":17.174,"end":35.466,"text":"好 部長我想跟你討論一下關於人民有一個眼睛 人民有一把尺剛剛那個張啟凱委員的質詢我有一些非常非常初級的法律見解跟認識想要跟部長討論其實事實上之前到底是不是組織犯罪這件事情當然我知道你們還在偵查中我們就不針對個案去討論"},{"start":36.787,"end":47.375,"text":"但是我印象中如果沒有記錯的話呢國民黨的大佬趙少康他當時都還說抄一下也還好嘛那在高雄罷免許智傑委員那個發起人還是領銜人喔他是一個從香港移民到台灣來的一個中國人那他就說這個黨呢有義務把這個名單給黨員這樣抄然後黨員也要服從黨的這個他說這個也很正常這第二個案例了第三個案例基隆"},{"start":62.386,"end":75.342,"text":"的張淵祥他也承認他們自己承認犯案所以依照我剛剛講這三個慣例如果我們用小學生等級的理解就是老師某某某作弊這樣然後某某某也承認說對對對我有作弊那身為老師我們針對這個作弊的個案去進行調查這應該是合理的所謂在法務部的見解對不對"},{"start":83.425,"end":106.89,"text":"反正我們的態度就是有涉及到犯罪那就要辦了那我想剛才文有提到的這些個別的涉案我想這個檢察機關都在申辦中我們就不針對個案討論但是我的法理的理解就是說老師班上有同學作弊那同學也承認說啊對對對老師我有作弊這樣同學自己就趕快自己承認覺得這樣罪會輕一點啊Maybe有各種可能"},{"start":107.21,"end":124.312,"text":"所以老師就進行調查這是對的嘛這是老師應該做的事情嘛對班上其他同學應該也比較公平對不對如果我們一起在進行這個考試是是嘛我的理解是這樣那所以如果用這個理解來看呢我認為剛剛張祺凱委員有非常多質詢的內容我認為有非常大的問題第一個我也想要請教部長"},{"start":125.333,"end":152.843,"text":"他剛剛特別點名吳釗燮或者是游錫堃院長他們這些人好像他認為也應該要去發動大規模的搜索甚至跑去他家跟辦公室但是部長我想跟你討論我的見解是這樣這些人基本上他是被害人那除非這些被抓出來的共諜他就直接指控說他是受游院長假設他真的這樣說我是受到游院長所指使叫我去執行這個共諜任務假設我們有聽到這樣的論述我們才去做後續的動作對不對是"},{"start":153.763,"end":168.574,"text":"所以對我來說不管是吳釗燮部長或是游院長他們在這個共諜案中應該都是算不知情的被害人如果你們現在掌握證據是這樣那我們就沒有理由去對他進行大規模搜索嘛這個不合理嗎這個各位報告我想"},{"start":170.396,"end":192.936,"text":"這個我想檢察官會做一個強加的調查但是我們沒辦法去說指定你要對他說什麼你要對他查辦我想對這個我是管理那個政策跟法案的所以我沒辦法就個案表示任何意見個案是由承辦檢控再做一個處理那我怎麼去知道說委員跟我講說你要辦哪一個我就說你要去辦哪一個你要去說哪一個就說哪一個這個變成是我是介入了"},{"start":195.658,"end":209.866,"text":"變成是由這個去介入政治力去介入到個案的一個偵辦我認為要給檢查一個純淨的一個辦案的一個空間我想我們要求檢查就是說你要嚴正公正的客觀公正的執法"},{"start":211.347,"end":226.31,"text":"就是勿软勿重嘛反正涉及犯罪就要办嘛那刚才就是违照文书那一部分怎么没有组成水灾过程这个虽然是学委会可以剔除但是这个是影响到学委会对这些管理的一个正确性的一个问题嘛"},{"start":226.93,"end":241.937,"text":"所以我想這個大概法律上那是個案的話個案正辦嘛這個在您的職權上確實是這樣不過我來幫您補充一下相關的新聞部長聽一下我講的對不對吳尚宇 邱士源然後黃曲榮還有盛楚瑩其實都已經有被收押了嘛對不對我們就不就個案來討論"},{"start":245.058,"end":248.662,"text":"盛楚瑩沒有就是吳尚宇、邱士元還有何仁杰我認為這就不是所謂的辦藍不辦綠或是辦綠不辦藍基本上就是如同剛剛張祺凱委員說的不分政黨嘛我們該辦就辦對不對"},{"start":261.797,"end":281.343,"text":"所以我想說反正涉及到共諜我們就辦嘛那我想這剛才有提到就是不分黨派然後我就說有裡面他僱用的人員是那他老闆每個都要辦嗎我想這個就是要個案的做一個認定說不定他是被害人說不定他也是共犯之一嘛好那我的理解那個這個個案的不同嘛所以我沒有辦法講說沒有說他聘用的人員是有共諜的話那每個難道都要辦嗎"},{"start":285.764,"end":301.299,"text":"我想這個看證據吧所以我可以這麼說好不好就是案件沒有分大小其實我剛剛一直在聽張祺凱委員說這個比例原則比例原則啊這個案件分大小可是部長我很好奇就你們法務的見解案件真的可以分大小嗎"},{"start":302.47,"end":308.493,"text":"案件沒有分大小啦 反正涉及到犯罪就要辦嘛那我想當檢察官的難道這個小我不辦 這個當然我才辦或者說我能力 我想要把這辦小 我不辦大我想這個案件我們檢察官沒有選擇要辦哪個案的一個特權啦這個案件本來就是輪分的嘛 而且只分或輪分那案件分案的有一定的一個程序嘛"},{"start":327.862,"end":347.91,"text":"所以檢察官只要228條認為有告訴告發或其他行為只有犯罪先檢然後就要啟動偵辦的一個程序嘛所以再加上我剛剛舉的那些例子吳尚宇 邱氏 黃許榮這些基本上人不分藍綠啦所以我的邏輯應該是這樣如果說證實有介入的話那證實有介入的話那這個案件我想不問哪個黨派證實有介入的話那這個黨派"},{"start":348.783,"end":370.241,"text":"他有顧慮他就不辦這個就要辦我想沒有反正是我們是不分勿晚勿中又涉及到這些的不法的那當然都要辦嘛好那最後一個問題喔其實我剛剛聽到也是頭皮發麻這樣他說這個五年以下跟七年以下就是分七年偽造文書跟這個五年以下他認為這個是輕罪又是回到這個案件不分大小可是我看刑法276過失"},{"start":371.762,"end":390.948,"text":"過失致死也是五年以下那難道我們要用這個邏輯就看他是重還是輕嗎所以我覺得這個邏輯確實也是怪怪的啦我想要聽一下部長您的見解對而且說五年以下幾年以下那個個案的情況是不一樣個案的情形是不一樣就像竊盜罪五年以下就偷一支筆跟偷了"},{"start":392.605,"end":415.613,"text":"偷了很多東西價值連城的東西都是五年以下但是他那個處理的一個給他落價的一個後來的刑法的評價兩省市會不一樣的嘛那我也不能講說偷乾筆我就不辦啊我只偷偷價值連城的一些的珍貴的珠寶或者說其他的東西我想檢察官不應該有這種的差別性勿枉勿重公正執法"},{"start":415.993,"end":443.627,"text":"好 謝謝部長剛剛用我們一般人可以聽懂的話來回應為什麼這麼說因為剛剛張祺凱委員甚至我認為我合理懷疑他剛剛在公開造謠剛剛那個照片他說那是25萬人可是我們看台北市警察局就是所謂的蔣萬安市長他們所主導的警察局說當天大概只有6萬到7萬人我覺得這個數字也是相當的令人懷疑到底是25萬還是6萬到底那份民調所代表的民意或者是他們所想像中人民看見什麼我覺得今天我也幫忙問了這些問題謝謝部長的示意"},{"start":446.731,"end":448.778,"text":"謝謝部長請回接下來我可以問回我要問的謝謝我要請那個國安局謝謝"},{"start":460.709,"end":473.017,"text":"其實今天我想問的很多問題大概很多委員也都說了不過我覺得有幾個面向的問題想要跟你來討論是不是在後續修法的時候我們可以怎麼樣來進行我們直接剪到下一頁因為在陸委會相關的記者會當中提到參加組織的人不再相關的"},{"start":480.121,"end":504.363,"text":"法规的规范范围里面所以如果我们来盘点上个礼拜在另外一个委员会也有进行相关的询答在人员的部分跟行为的部分确实现在在法规上是有不足的地方需要进行后续修法当然我知道你们都说尊重立法院尊重立法委员对不对但是我要提的是当我们进行修法之后我认为对行政机关最困难其实是执行面"},{"start":505.143,"end":527.822,"text":"就是如何去執行這些法規範然後如何讓所有的相關工作人員在相關的案件當中他們真的可以做到相關的執行然後甚至是違法的行為可以被偵查然後呢在偵查的時候很多機密的資料不要再無止境的外洩或者是呢要有有效的犯意嚇阻機制我覺得這件事情應該會是你們後續的困難你自己怎麼看是"},{"start":531.065,"end":546.559,"text":"謝謝委員指導我想這個修國安法或者是其他國安法字面的部分大概相關選者部位都會邀請我們國安局去參加那我們國安局都會表達意見只要能補這個國安的漏洞我們都贊成我們都非常樂意來修這個法"},{"start":549.515,"end":570.697,"text":"對但是我剛講你們還要提出你們在後續工作量能上需要的資源因為修完法之後我們常常看到很多修完法之後其實在執行層面是困難的那我也很開心聽到你說在相關修法會議當中國安局都有參與那我覺得要拜託國安局這邊就更務實的提出你們所需要的資源跟人力好嗎或者是相關預算"},{"start":572.519,"end":588.689,"text":"是 這個我們會來辦理 謝謝我們接下來看一下 其實最近有這個相關的新聞的案例我想你都非常清楚 一個是總統府憲兵隊那他們的做法我就不再細說但是我們看到 他們說他們得到的不罰所得大概算出來是184萬可是我要說出賣的國家利益絕對遠超於這個 對不對"},{"start":593.111,"end":621.811,"text":"遠超過這184萬你自己怎麼看當然這個出賣國家他的一個所得國家的損失實在是無法以量化的金錢來衡量也因為金錢無法量化但是對於整體國家安全人民所造成的擔心或者是人民的疑慮我認為確實不管是在我剛說的修法或是後續執行那我們來看一下這兩天也有周刊家在講到中國透過親共的台灣黑幫分子這些事情我相信你們國安局"},{"start":624.011,"end":642.277,"text":"是 我們會透過國安團隊 情報團隊 收集國安有關的情報經過我們會診分析 這個確實我們也會掌握好 那我們來看下一張所以這就是你們提供給我們這個相關的報告 這個表格是對的對不對你們所提供的"},{"start":643.752,"end":670.398,"text":"中共五大滲透管道及四大手法是 這個我們也有在委員會的報告裡面都有把它整理出來好 那我自己看到這些資料其實如同剛剛司藥委員說的我覺得非常的驚悚驚悚的意思就是說其實你們應該都掌握了這些訊息不管是在最近或者是幾個共點案的偵辦當中或者是陸陸續續收集這些資料我自己看到這些資料如果我們要跟國人討論這件事情我覺得有幾個面向我想要提供給國安局做參考"},{"start":671.258,"end":687.125,"text":"第一个就是中共如此无恐不入的渗透行为而且我必须要说它非常广泛而且它试着想要让这些事情是有效的在国安没有看见的角落那我们国安局或是整体的行政机关如何建立广泛"},{"start":687.805,"end":704.142,"text":"足夠而且有效的預防國家機密外洩的保護措施這是第一個第二個如果國家機密一旦洩露或者是危害國家的安全的行為發生的時候如何精準又快速的查緝避免損壞的情形擴大這是第二個"},{"start":704.682,"end":716.508,"text":"第三個面對中共這麼多元的滲透行為行政機關有沒有機會提供給我們一般人行為指引讓民眾不要不小心踩到這個紅線為什麼我剛要問你這麼多事情所以我很開心聽到你們說國安局有參與相關會議"},{"start":721.61,"end":743.24,"text":"也就是說在預防的部分事先預防還有當事情發生的查緝或者是在那之前對我們一般小老百姓來說對一般公民來說什麼樣的行為是可以做什麼樣的行為是真的不小心會踩到紅線我認為我們需要積極討論這個事情尤其是針對第三點我們有沒有機會提供給民眾一個行為指引"},{"start":746.257,"end":766.853,"text":"這個任何一個滲透的方法 或者是它的樣態 待會我們都會公佈在我們的公開的網站裡面 民眾都可以上去來瀏覽我們也會將這個手法樣態 透過不同的一個場合 包括發布的一個媒體 讓告知民眾 也是在全世界的一個交易 這很重要的"},{"start":767.133,"end":788.112,"text":"好 你剛剛講到全社會教育因為這件事情真的非常非常的重要因為我們可以看到就你們剛剛這個表格來看不管是宮廟團體或者是所謂大學跟大學之間的學術交流或者是所謂文化藝術團體的交流其實過去在兩岸之間確實有很多只是我們去的國人不見得有意識到說這中間的活動可能參雜有統戰的"},{"start":790.194,"end":809.687,"text":"行為在裡面對嗎孩子們去對岸的大學參觀他可能不會要說啊原來這一堂課是要給我洗腦的他們可能就安排了一個早上的課那如何在全民都可以理解這樣的事情這樣的概念情況下我們還是可以在安全的情況下進行人岸交流所以我想一般的所謂行為指引這件事情要拜託你們"},{"start":810.787,"end":836.545,"text":"為我們人民把關這件事情非常非常重要因為我相信一般人都是希望自己不要是被滲透的對象也希望自己不要成為中共在台灣的代理人或者是幫兇所以我認為好的行為指引對我們一般人真的非常重要所以來看一下目前剛剛司法委員也說了民進黨團除了修這個國安實法之外後續民進黨團也會有自己的內規但除了這件事情之外我還想進一步跟您請教"},{"start":837.345,"end":853.073,"text":"其实呢王美惠委员或者是其他民进党团的委员都有提出来例如说一定职等或是一定关节符合一定条件的公务员跟军官如果他们从事效忠中国的行为可以依法剥夺部分或全部的退休金"},{"start":854.053,"end":871.561,"text":"在這件事情的修法其實我們也受到了阻礙或者是像我們個人在程序委員會的案子也受到了阻礙所以我想我當然非常謝謝你們說尊重立法院的提案那民進黨團當然也會積極在這件事情上持續有所作為所以我想我這邊最後還是快速的說行政機關該有的措施如何防範中共的滲透統戰的策略還有如何預防如何處置"},{"start":876.363,"end":895.224,"text":"還有相關行政部門可不可以給我們一般人一個所謂的行為指引這件事情並且擴大所謂社會教育全面宣導最後呢我們也呼籲我們立法院應該要儘速填補國安相關法律漏洞我也要呼籲藍白不要再阻擋國安法案好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝主席 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1048,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時1分）謝謝主席，我先請法務部部長，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，我想跟你討論一下關於剛剛張啓楷質詢到人民有眼睛、人民有一把尺，我有一些非常非常初級的法律見解及認識想要跟部長討論。事實上，之前提到到底是不是組織犯罪這件事情，當然我知道你們還在偵查中，我們就不針對個案去討論，但是我印象中如果沒有記錯的話，國民黨大老趙少康當時都還說抄一下也還好嘛；在高雄罷免許智傑委員的發起人還是領銜人，是一個從香港移民到臺灣來的中國人，他就說黨有義務把名單給黨員這樣抄，黨員也要服從黨，他說這個也很正常，這是第二個案例了；第三個案例是基隆的張淵翔自己也承認犯案。","所以依照我剛剛講的這3個案例，如果我們用小學生等級的理解，就是學生說：「老師，某某某作弊」，然後某某某也承認：「對、對、對，我有作弊」，身為老師，我們針對這個作弊的個案去進行調查，就法務部的見解，這應該是合理的，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：反正我們的態度就是有涉及到犯罪就要辦。剛才委員提到的這些個別的涉案，我想檢察機關都在偵辦中了……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，我們就不針對個案討論。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：我對法理的理解是，學生說：「老師，班上有同學作弊」，同學也承認：「對、對、對，老師，我有作弊」，同學就趕快自己承認了，覺得這樣罪會輕一點，maybe有各種可能，所以老師就進行調查，這是對的，這是老師應該做的事情，如果我們一起在進行考試，對班上其他同學應該也比較公平，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：是嘛，我的理解是這樣。所以如果用這個理解來看，我認為剛剛張啓楷委員非常多質詢內容有非常大的問題。第一個，我也想要請教部長，他剛剛特別點名吳釗燮或者游錫堃院長這些人，好像他認為也應該對他們發動大規模的搜索，甚至跑去他們家及辦公室。但是我想跟部長討論，我的見解是這樣，這些人基本上是被害人，除非這些被抓出來的共諜就直接指控是受游院長所指使去執行共諜任務，假設他們真的這樣說，假設我們有聽到這樣的論述，我們才去做後續的動作，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以對我來說，不管是吳釗燮秘書長或游院長，他們在共諜案中應該都是算不知情的被害人，如果你們現在掌握的證據是這樣，我們就沒有理由去對他們進行大規模搜索，這個不合理嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我想檢察官會詳加調查。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是我們沒辦法去說指定要對他搜索、對他查辦，我是管理政策及法案的，所以我沒辦法就個案表示任何意見，個案是由承辦檢察官在做處理，我怎麼去指導檢察官，譬如委員跟我講說要辦哪一個，我就要檢察官去辦哪一個，要去搜哪一個就去搜哪一個？這樣就變成我去介入了，變成是由政治力去介入到個案的偵辦，我認為要給檢察官一個純淨的辦案空間。我們會要求檢察官要嚴正、公正、客觀地執法，毋枉毋縱，凡涉及犯罪就要辦。剛才提到偽造文書的部分，怎麼會沒有足生損害於公眾或他人？這個雖然是選委會可以剔除，但是這個是影響到選委會對管理的正確性的問題嘛！"],["陳委員培瑜：好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我想大概法律上……那是個案的話，個案偵辦，我也沒辦法去……"],["陳委員培瑜：在您的職權上確實是這樣，不過我來幫您補充一下相關的新聞，部長聽一下我講的對不對。吳尚雨、邱世元、黃取榮、盛礎纓其實都已經被收押了，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們就不就個案來討論。"],["鄭部長銘謙：盛礎纓沒有，就是吳尚雨、邱世元、還有……"],["陳委員培瑜：盛礎纓聲押獲准後以20萬元交保，但是我剛剛講的3個：吳尚雨、邱世元跟黃取榮都已經被……"],["鄭部長銘謙：還有何仁傑。"],["陳委員培瑜：對。我認為這就不是所謂的辦藍不辦綠或是辦綠不辦藍，基本上就是如同剛剛張啓楷委員說的，不分政黨，該辦就辦，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，所以凡是涉及到共諜就辦，剛才有提到不分黨派。至於雇用的人員是……難道每個老闆都要辦嗎？我想這個就是要個案認定，說不定人家是被害人，說不定他也是共犯之一……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我的理解……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有個案的不同，所以我沒辦法說他聘用的人員有共諜的話，每個難道都要辦嗎？我想這個看證據嘛。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我可以這麼說，就是案件沒有分大小。我剛剛一直在聽張啓楷委員說比例原則、案件分大小，可是部長，我很好奇，就你們法務的見解，案件真的可以分大小嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：案件沒有分大小，反正涉及到犯罪就要辦。我想當檢察官的難道可以認為這個案子小就不辦，這個案子大才辦？或者以自己的能力，只想辦小案、不辦大案？我想檢察官沒有選擇要辦哪個案子的特權，案件本來就是指分或輪分的，案件分案有一定的程序，所以檢察官只要依照刑事訴訟法第二百二十八條，認為有告訴、告發或其他情事知有犯罪嫌疑者，就要啟動偵辦的程序。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以再加上我剛剛舉的那些例子，包括吳尚雨、邱世元、黃取榮，基本上人不分藍綠，所以我的邏輯應該是這樣：案件不分大小，人不分藍綠。"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果政治力有介入的話，那這個案件……我想不管哪個黨派，政治力有介入的話，這個黨派就不辦，那個黨派就要辦，我想沒有這樣，我們是毋枉毋縱，凡是涉及不法的，當然都要辦嘛。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，最後一個問題，其實我剛聽到也是頭皮發麻。他說偽造文書分五年以下跟七年以下，他認為這是輕罪，又是回到案件不分大小，可是我看刑法第二百七十六條過失致死也是五年以下，難道我們要用這個邏輯去看重還是輕嗎？所以我覺得這個邏輯確實也是怪怪的啦！想要聽一下部長的見解。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，而且五年以下或是幾年以下，個案的情形並不一樣，就像竊盜罪是五年以下，偷一支筆跟偷了很多東西、甚至價值連城的東西，都是五年以下，但是它後來刑法的評價、量刑不會是一樣的，但我也不能說偷鋼筆的就不辦，偷價值連城的珍貴珠寶或者是其他的東西才辦，我想檢察官不應該有這種差別性，毋枉毋縱、公正執法。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長剛剛用我們一般人可以聽得懂的話來回應，為什麼這麼說，因為剛剛張啓楷委員說的，甚至我合理懷疑他剛剛在公開造謠，剛剛那個照片他說有25萬人，可是我們看臺北市警察局，就是所謂蔣萬安市長他們所主導的警察局說，當天大概只有6萬到7萬人，我覺得這個數字也相當令人懷疑，到底是25萬還是6萬，到底那份民調所代表的民意，或者是他們想像中人民看見什麼，我覺得今天我也幫忙問了這些問題，謝謝部長釋疑，部長請回。","接下來我要請國安局，謝謝。"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：其實今天我想問的很多問題，大概很多委員也都說了，不過我覺得有幾個面向的問題想要跟您來討論，是不是在後續修法的時候我們可以怎麼樣來進行？因為在陸委會相關的記者會當中提到，參加組織的人不在相關法規規範範圍裡面，所以如果我們來盤點，上個禮拜在另外一個委員會也有進行相關的詢答，在人員的部分跟行為的部分，確實現在在法規上是有不足的地方，需要進行後續修法，當然我知道你們都說尊重立法院、尊重立法委員，對不對？好，但是我要提的是，當我們進行修法之後，我認為對行政機關最困難的其實是執行面，就是如何去執行這些法規範，然後如何讓所有相關工作人員在相關的案件當中，他們真的可以做到相關的執行，甚至是違法的行為可以被偵查，然後在偵查的時候，很多機密的資料，不要再無止境的外洩或者是要有有效的犯意遏阻機制，我覺得這件事情應該會是你們後續的困難，你自己怎麼看？"],["黃副局長明昭：謝謝委員指導，修國安法或者是其他國安法制面的部分，大概相關權責部會都會邀請我們國安局參加，我們國安局也都會表達意見，只要能補國安的漏洞，我們都贊成，我們都非常樂意修這個法。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，但是我剛剛講了，你們還要提出在後續工作量能上需要的資源，因為我們常看到很多修完法之後，其實在執行層面是困難的。我也很開心聽到你說，在相關修法會議當中國安局都有參與。我要拜託國安局要更務實地提出你們所需要的資源、人力或者是相關預算，好不好？"],["黃副局長明昭：是，這個我們會來辦理，謝謝指導。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝，我們後續也會持續關心。","再來，最近有相關的新聞案例，我想你都非常清楚，一個是總統府憲兵隊，他們的作法我就不再細說，但是我們可以看到，他們得到的不法所得，大概算出來是184萬，我要說的是，出賣的國家利益絕對遠超於這184萬，你自己怎麼看？"],["黃副局長明昭：當然出賣國家的利益，以他的所得跟國家的損失相較，實在是無法以量化的金錢來衡量。"],["陳委員培瑜：也因為金錢無法量化，但是對於整體國家安全、對人民所造成的擔心或者是人民的疑慮，我認為不管是我剛剛說的修法或是後續的執行確實都會有影響。這兩天也有週刊提到中國透過親共的臺灣黑幫分子當內應，這些事情我相信你們國安局應該也都有掌握，對不對？"],["黃副局長明昭：是，我們會透過國安團隊、情報團隊，蒐集與國安有關的情報，經過我們的彙整、分析，這個確實我們也會有所掌握。"],["陳委員培瑜：接下來這個就是你們提供給我們相關的報告，這個表格是對的，對不對？你們所提供的中共五大滲透管道及四大手法。"],["黃副局長明昭：是，我們在給委員會的報告裡面都有把它整理出來。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我自己看到這些資料後，如同剛剛思瑤委員說的，我覺得非常的驚悚，驚悚的意思就是說，其實你們應該都掌握了這些訊息，不管是在最近或者是幾個共諜案的偵辦當中，或者是陸陸續續蒐集的這些資料，我自己看到這些資料後，我覺得如果我們要跟國人討論這件事情，有幾個面向我想要提供給國安局參考，第一個，中共如此無孔不入的滲透行為，我必須要說，它非常廣泛，而且它試著想要讓這些事情是有效的，在國安沒有看見的角落，我們國安局或是整體的行政機關，如何建立廣泛、足夠而且有效預防國家機密外洩的保護措施，這是第一個。","第二個，如果國家機密一旦洩漏或者是危害國家安全的行為發生的時候，如何精準又快速的查緝，避免損害的情形擴大，這是第二個。","第三個，面對中共這麼多元的滲透行為，行政機關有沒有機會提供給我們一般人行為指引，讓民眾不要不小心踩到這個紅線？為什麼我剛才要問你這麼多事情？而且我很開心聽到你們說國安局有參與相關會議，也就是說，在事先預防的部分，還有當事情發生的查緝，或者是在那之前，對我們一般小老百姓來說、對一般公民來說，什麼樣的行為可以做、什麼樣的行為真的不小心會踩到紅線，我認為我們需要積極討論這個事情，尤其是針對第三點，我們有沒有機會提供給民眾一個行為指引？"],["黃副局長明昭：任何一個滲透的方法或者是樣態，我們都會彙整，也會公告在我們公開的網站裡面，民眾都可以上去瀏覽，我們也會將這個手法、樣態，透過不同的場合，包括發布的媒體，以告知民眾，這也是全社會教育，這是很重要的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，你剛剛講到全社會教育，的確，這件事情真的非常、非常重要，因為我們可以看到，就你們剛剛的這個表格來看，不管是宮廟團體或者是所謂大學跟大學之間的學術交流，或者是所謂文化藝術團體的交流，過去在兩岸之間確實有很多，只是我們去的國人不見得有意識到這中間的活動可能摻雜統戰的行為在裡面，對嗎？孩子們去對岸的大學參觀，他可能不知道原來這一堂課是要給我洗腦的，他們可能就安排了一個早上的課。","所以如何在全民都可以理解這樣的事情、這樣的概念，我們還是可以在安全的情況下進行兩岸交流，我想一般的所謂行為指引這件事情要拜託你們，為我們人民把關這件事情非常非常重要，因為我相信一般人都希望自己不要是被滲透的對象，也希望自己不要成為中共在臺灣的代理人或者是幫兇，所以我認為好的行為指引對我們一般人來說真的非常重要。","剛剛思瑤委員也說了，民進黨團除了修國安十法之外，後續民進黨團也會有自己的內規，但除了這件事情之外，我還想進一步跟您請教，其實王美惠委員或者是其他民進黨團的委員也都有提出來，例如說一定職等或是一定官階，符合一定條件的公務員跟軍官，如果他們從事效忠中國的行為，可以依法剝奪部分或全部的退休金，在這件事情的修法上，其實我們也受到阻礙或者是像我們個人在程序委員會提的案子也受到阻礙。非常謝謝你們說尊重立法院的提案，民進黨黨團當然也會積極在這件事情上持續有所作為。","總之，我還是要快速地說，行政機關該有的措施──如何防範中共的滲透、統戰的策略，還有如何預防、如何處置，還有相關行政部門可不可以給我們一般人行為指引這件事情，並且擴大社會教育、全面宣導。最後我也呼籲我們立法院應該要儘速填補國安相關法律漏洞，我也呼籲藍白不要再阻擋國安法案，以上，謝謝。"],["黃副局長明昭：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","下一位請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":353,"meetingDate":["2025-05-05"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法\n院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘\n部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜\n滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00007"}}},{"id":"160952","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160952","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38e90b73e994f9b731141fd9ac8a7e4e7d3e2c5f8a9bba8e627b44cbce2319d1543d5268b71a667c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:44:15 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七年對不對 如果是發展組織 七年以上啊 七年以上 對啊課長文書勒 課長是五年以下一個重罪 一個輕罪啊 你們有辦嗎你們有共諜案 連環報 八字不通話 統幹單文問你你們有傳訊游錫坤 有傳訊吳釗燮有傳釋 傳訊你餘諜嗎"},{"start":105.558,"end":131.813,"text":"你們有去大搜索嗎 有去那邊加或者是總統府 國安局 國安會或者是外交部有押嗎 有押任何一個人嗎爭吵不公開齁 我跟委員報告齁反正這是個案的問題 我沒辦法去做一個回答這麼多就是通案囉 也是一個案喔那不是有羈押的 羈押的不少人了嗎有羈押的 像吳尚偉等的有被羈押了嗎那這些老闆 這些老闆他的住所沒有一個有被傳嗎"},{"start":133.528,"end":147.105,"text":"這個我沒辦法去回答這個問題完全這個這個案件依照案件的一個證據收證的程度我相信檢察官他會做整個一個案件的一個偵查這個計畫所以我沒辦法幫你回答這個問題你很負責任何講好啦 吳釗燮好了我沒辦法"},{"start":150.088,"end":170.246,"text":"吳釗燮涉及的 來 來 等一下有沒有去他家裡搜索過 等一下 等一下有沒有去外交部搜索過我們要去干涉指揮檢察官去要搜索哪一個地點 要搜索哪一個對象那這是一個個案的一個問題 而且檢察官這麼多就是一個通案喔 而且你現在在這不是通案啦 這是個案啦五個 我問你這五個 我問你 來來 保證人 我問你"},{"start":172.108,"end":192.385,"text":"那五個案子你有任何去搜索任何人的這些涉案的這些人的家裡我想這個檢察認為案件有必要的話而且不是檢察說哪一個就說哪一個法院還要再法官還要再審核嘛那我想這個大家都已經大家都清楚的事情嘛這個也不是我當部長我沒辦法去"},{"start":193.306,"end":214.459,"text":"去指示檢查說你要收哪一個哪一個你要辦哪一個我沒辦法去干涉介入指導的個案的一個偵辦嘛但是我想說共諜案當然我們要嚴辦這是一個通案但是我們想是哪個個案你要辦到誰對啊你嚴辦你看這些相關的人都在外面趴趴走啊也沒有看到你辦啊還有嚴辦的話不然我們怎麼會收押呢這個不認為積壓的必要就收押了嘛你看國民黨這樣罵髒話罵髒話一關一關一關起來"},{"start":218.642,"end":225.549,"text":"結果你看這些人有辦嗎 民眾會有判斷的啦 為什麼會出現 辦懶不辦綠 辦小不辦大我問你一個 四月二十六日 有二十五萬人上街頭 你知道他們在抗議什麼抗議的訴求 主要訴求是什麼 二十萬人上了街頭"},{"start":243.595,"end":270.507,"text":"那天主要的抗議的訴求是什麼?人民為什麼怒火?我想上場都有他自己的想法啦這個訴求你都不重視民意嗎?有不同的訴求我沒有去做這樣的特別去研究這些那天主要啊反對獨裁的最重要那天最熱的就是司法不公啦我給你看民調不是只有人民用腳這個表態那麼多人出來怒火看看最新民調"},{"start":273.514,"end":287.23,"text":"57.9%的民眾認為政治力介入了檢調機關的辦案57.6%認為政治力介入了司法案件59.3%認為政府譴責性辦案"},{"start":290.885,"end":306.682,"text":"所以委員你也不要叫我說要去叫起來辦哪一個人啦我認為這個就不是你看了我們就覺得很沒有面子你看了這三個民調你就是叫我說你要辦哪一個辦哪一個辦哪一個我認為這個是我沒有叫你辦哪一個我叫你通案"},{"start":307.463,"end":322.756,"text":"你在辦這個指引連署的時候你這麼大力你在大搜手大搜押我這邊沒有看到你該有的動作這兩個都是通 兩個這麼多這麼多案子啊不要保證我現在問你啦不是給他二十五萬人上街啦你看到這三個民調你有覺得連上很無光嗎愧對你的職責嗎你是發不保證欸這民調你不覺得"},{"start":334.546,"end":362.503,"text":"檢調那麼辛苦在捍衛我們人權跟法治給個人民一下對你們的觀感是這樣子說委員檢調可以我部長怎麼去介入呢不是介入你領導你當法務部長你看到這個沒有難過嗎你沒有做一些改革嗎沒有反省嗎那你認為是檢調就要偵辦這些犯罪難道是還要再分不同的這些這個可以辦那個不應該辦他沒有這種事情反正有涉及犯罪都該辦嘛"},{"start":367.464,"end":381.432,"text":"59.3%認為你正譜就是選擇性辦案但我不曉得這個民調是怎樣當然可以檢討啦這美麗島電子報啊這兩個禮拜是最熱門的新聞耶最重要是你到底從裡面得到一些反省跟檢討法定 什麼叫做選擇性辦案"},{"start":386.363,"end":397.531,"text":"我們沒有選擇性辦案 凡是有涉及犯罪性...人民就是這樣認為嘛 對不對那這個問題記不具體政治力有沒有介入檢調機關辦案這個題目還不夠清楚嗎好 來 我們繼續來談一個你這段時間在辦的啊死亡連署我怎麼說"},{"start":411.877,"end":439.807,"text":"跟這個共諜案比起來一個大一個小第二個來看一段話這是以前做法官的時候的李敬榮現在中選會主委李敬榮說的他說啦雖然我有偽造文書但是你們不要擔心因為沒有實質傷害所以我不會有罪這個是這段時間你們在大搜手在大搜押這些往生者幽靈靈所這很多人在提醒你的大砲打學長輕罪"},{"start":442.418,"end":444.302,"text":"你看李靖遠為什麼這樣講李靖遠為什麼這樣講他能產生什麼實質上的傷害"},{"start":454.047,"end":476.642,"text":"這個死亡連署的這種 就像我講說死人不會從你爬出來再做一個連署啦那我是認為啦 我認為 反制和涉及犯罪就該辦所以大院的委員該辦是不是有個比例延遲 法治國基本的比例延遲是不是被你迫害了延遲不死 這嚴重違反 違反侵蝕民主政治的基石所以這個要延辦"},{"start":477.883,"end":492.029,"text":"我想這個大院委員都是有志一統就是把那個那個那個 你是說不保證啦講法 不要破壞法治保證來來來 保證我問你一下你現在用的是第200 刑法 委員你的意思是叫我不要再去叫檢討說委託委員都不要辦嗎 是不是這樣"},{"start":493.49,"end":516.002,"text":"你一直所有犯罪都辦啊可是你大小總有分啊現在人民為什麼有那麼多說你是選擇性辦案你共諜案也不辦大的案子不辦共諜怎麼辦如果沒有不辦那怎麼可能會被收押呢而且辦案都不分檔案嘛你一直繞在那個繞在那幾個五個五個案子對不對押了四個人一個人二十萬交保出去人民都笑你們的人民在笑我們的司法這共諜案啊比這個幽靈連署還要輕欸"},{"start":523.479,"end":532.921,"text":"更重要來 萬鵬尼 你是 萬鵬尼你用刑法第210條 偽造文書版嘛 對不對他的要件是什麼偽造文書要成立的要件是什麼偽造編造他人之私生什麼 損害於什麼之他人啊損害於公眾跟個人好 那請問 請問剛才 李敬榮是要說你再看一次李敬榮講的話"},{"start":553.869,"end":576.822,"text":"他偽造文書李部長 李委員那個主委他當時這個背景我不清楚這1985年 你說1985年4月的一個發言我不曉得是哪個個案 這個我不清楚大搜手他 大搜押他嗎這我沒有辦法對一個我不清楚的個案表示任何意見"},{"start":578.41,"end":581.619,"text":"如果就他用的這個刑法第210條要損害於公眾跟個人嘛"},{"start":586.36,"end":605.029,"text":"那你連署你的互義證如果連署沒有損害公眾跟他人嗎這個嚴重影響 嚴重侵蝕民主政治的基石真的選舉可以去用作票作假嗎我想全民是沒辦法去接受的先不要講輕罪跟重罪來來來 我問你一個重點來來來你的連署要不要經過互義證系統的這個檢核會不會塞掉"},{"start":615.697,"end":626.549,"text":"你連署完之後包括罷免吳思瑤的這些人他第一個拿到送到中選會要做什麼違照文書本來就是集成犯了嘛你只要違照他們的署押這個就是發生損害了嘛你的護意證系統會剔除掉嘛對不對有損害嗎"},{"start":635.595,"end":657.738,"text":"怎麼會沒損害 又假冒假冒了你的名字去叫我想這個孫生損害這個事只要圍繞他女兒的鼠丫一層就是會出生損害啦連部長你問一下幕僚亂講法律怎麼這樣規定的你自身損害他的那個你問一下幕僚這樣會不好意思會讓人家笑話 張偉不要打插話不是 我怕部長讓人家笑話啦"},{"start":659.462,"end":671.593,"text":"在這邊是全民直播喔 全民都在看喔我剛剛跟你講 第一個我拿了李進隆的案例給你看第二個我是就法認法跟你講刑務法第210條 更重要的我們的中選會 我們的互義證系統是要篩選的你如果有死人連署 篩選就剔除了嘛 對不對有對連署發生影響嗎這個案子會成立嗎 例如說吳思瑤那邊吳思瑤那邊的如果有死亡連署你後來會照這還有各自法的問題嘛"},{"start":688.353,"end":691.415,"text":"什麼司法問題你救法論法你這個問題要不要去補救這個會不會是這個案本來就是我從民調還有二十萬人上街頭一直跟你講到法律的這個問題連民進黨啊民進黨的人都高喊林黛嬅說政治啊干預了司法司法又去干預了這個初選然後呢民進黨政府下指導旗司法介入"},{"start":719.841,"end":739.295,"text":"斑斑可考虎鑿斑斑 你看你有沒有聽到民進黨的辭職令上面說國民黨這個事情是系統性的組織犯罪是系統性的組織犯罪嗎你目前去搜索用的是什麼罪你壓人用什麼 有用系統性組織犯罪嗎 有沒有"},{"start":743.007,"end":767.336,"text":"這個案件是檢查在偵辦中會涉及到其他的一個犯罪我想我想這個這個我沒辦法去救個案的隊去去做一個報告你那麼多案子那是不是林佑昌講的系統性的組織犯罪我問你一個最明確的郭民眾正在做直播說禮拜三啊現在搜索過台北市黨部新北市黨部台南市黨部禮拜三要去搜索大搜索國民黨"},{"start":769.845,"end":791.885,"text":"這個是一個個案有沒有看到會搜索那個地點那個檢察會申請法院來核發這是另狀主義的嘛如果說可不可以說有沒有必要性這個不是檢察說了就直接就有辦法去執行的這還要經過法院的一個審的開法院開搜索票我們依照法院開的說法去做執行的嘛"},{"start":793.581,"end":817.299,"text":"而且司法法院本來就是獨立的嘛那怎麼會司法介入呢 那個政治介入呢 黨政黨介入呢所以民眾從民調裡面 20萬人的上街頭吶喊還有民眾的民調的對你們的提醒跟警示 你完全都沒有感覺你都沒有覺得說你們要好好做個檢討要去反省嗎我用一個最具體的做一個總結好了 包括調查局局長跟部長"},{"start":819.522,"end":835.642,"text":"那麼多的民眾說你們 選擇性辦案我聽到人們啊 到目前為止中選會告發了他告發了國民黨跟 國民黨去罷免民進黨的民進黨去罷免國民黨 對不對我聽到那百分之九 五比零嘛 對不對"},{"start":837.165,"end":865.388,"text":"你說 你說你們會證明你們不會選擇性辦案都辦啊 因為委員沒有注意到新聞對啦 五比零嘛 五比零的新聞都辦嘛不要啊 現在多少都辦了 台中的部分你可能沒有注意到新聞 都辦現在幾比幾幾比幾 具體我現在手上11比1啦 對不對沒有沒有民進黨現在辦了 基隆還辦哪裡不止不止不止台中喔 兩個是不是然後基隆 基隆 你看 你有收手嗎"},{"start":868.584,"end":891.871,"text":"基隆你有搜索嗎不是啊 搜索是為了要保全證據對啊 現在國民黨像你這些十幾個地方都被你搜索民進黨的沒有搜索 用約談的方式回來一兩個小時還請回所以人民才會說你選擇性辦案嘛我想具體的個案的內容我沒辦法跟你說明但是都辦了 都辦了"},{"start":894.307,"end":913.325,"text":"人民的眼睛是血亮的不要輕忽不要看低台灣人民的水準已經那麼清楚公不公正人民會做判斷我已經跟你講了11比2上次5比0然後你辦國民黨是大收手大收押再這樣繼續下去我跟你講民調還會繼續再掉"},{"start":914.929,"end":943.488,"text":"你們的歷史定會出很大問題你們對尤其說的剪掉剪掉人眼嗎我想在這個過程裡面檢察官跟調查官都是依法依法這個來公正的執法這個我們非常非常有信心這個委員謝謝委員的施法有他的天平啦人民心中也有一把尺啦人民隨時在幫你們打分數啦希望下次你們分數可以升高我最後做一個總結啦請一起保定 決定我一直捍衛司法的正義不要再受到任何政治的干預"},{"start":947.309,"end":963.696,"text":"維護公平的這個中立不要為特定的政黨服務嚴守司法的分際不枉法不濫權人民心中有一把尺人民眼睛也是血亮的大家都盯著你們在看期待你們去聽得起考驗了謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":916,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時44分）謝謝主席，請鄭部長跟陳局長。"],["主席：麻煩鄭部長、陳局長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：剛才吳思瑤委員一直在說我們這會期是國安會期，最近民進黨的共諜案連環爆，敵人就在本能寺，吳思瑤講得這麼重要，部長跟局長，你們有沒有像在辦連署案一樣去大搜索、大收押？部長，共諜案跟死人連署，哪一個罪比較重？"],["鄭部長銘謙：都很重要的案件。"],["張委員啓楷：都很重要，刑責差很多，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：刑責當然是有些差別。"],["張委員啓楷：共諜案如果涉國安法，是幾年？"],["鄭部長銘謙：共諜……看法條是七年。"],["張委員啓楷：七年，對不對？如果是發展組織，七年以上。"],["鄭部長銘謙：七年以上。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，偽造文書呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：偽造是五年以下。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！一個重罪，一個輕罪啊！你們有辦嗎？共諜案連環爆，爆這麼多，現在最簡單的，我問你，你們有傳訊游錫堃、有傳訊吳釗燮、有傳訊李余典嗎？你們有去大搜索嗎？有去他們家或者是總統府、國安會或者是外交部，有押嗎？有押任何一個人嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：偵查不公開，我跟委員報告，凡是個案的問題，我沒辦法去做一個回答。"],["張委員啓楷：這麼多就是通案，不是一個案喔！"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是有羈押了不少人了嗎？羈押了像吳尚雨等的，有被羈押了。"],["張委員啓楷：這些老闆還有住所，沒有一個有被傳嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法回答這個問題，這個案件是依照案件證據蒐證的程度，我相信檢察官會就整個案件做偵查計畫，所以我沒辦法回答這個問題。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你很負責任地講，吳釗燮好了……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法……"],["張委員啓楷：吳釗燮涉及的，第一、有沒有去他家裡搜索過？第二、有沒有去外交部搜索過？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法干涉或指揮檢察官要搜索哪個地點、要搜索哪個對象，這是個案的問題，而且偵查不公開……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這麼多就是通案啊！而且你現在在……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不是通案，這是個案啦！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我問你，針對那五個案子，你有去搜索任何一個涉案人家裡的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：要不要搜索，我想是檢察官認為案件有必要的話，而且不是檢察官說搜哪一個就搜哪一個，法官還要再審核嘛！我想這是大家都已經清楚的事情，我當部長我沒辦法去指示檢察官說你要搜哪一個、你要辦哪一個，我沒辦法去干涉、介入或指導個案的偵辦。當然共諜案我們要嚴辦，這是一個通案，但是我們講是哪一個個案、你要辦到誰……"],["張委員啓楷：你說要嚴辦，但你看這些相關的人都在外面趴趴走，也沒有看到你辦啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有嚴辦的話，我們怎麼會收押呢？我們認為有羈押的必要就收押了嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：你看國民黨像肉粽一樣一直串起來，結果你看這些人有辦嗎？民眾會有判斷的啦！為什麼會出現辦藍不辦綠、辦小不辦大？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有什麼辦藍不辦綠，我想就是毋枉毋縱，反正涉及犯罪檢調就會辦了嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我問你一下，4月26日有25萬人上街頭，你知道他們在抗議什麼嗎？抗議的主要訴求是什麼？25萬人上了街頭，那天主要的抗議訴求是什麼？人民為什麼怒吼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這些人上街頭都有他們自己的想法，每個人都有他的訴求……"],["張委員啓楷：你知道嗎？你知道嗎？你都不重視民意嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：每個人都有不同的訴求，我沒有特別去研究這些……"],["張委員啓楷：那一天主要是反對獨裁，那一天最重要的就是抗議司法不公，我給你看民調，不是只有人民用腳表態，那麼多人出來怒吼。看一下最新民調，57.9%的民眾認為政治力介入了檢調機關的辦案，57.6%的民眾認為政治力介入了司法案件，59.3%的民眾認為政府選擇性辦案。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以委員你也不要叫我說要去叫檢察官辦哪一個人，我認為這個就不適當……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你看了有沒有覺得很沒有面子？你看了這三個民調，你……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我在立法院，委員就是叫我說你要辦哪一個、辦哪一個，我認為這個是……"],["張委員啓楷：我沒有叫你辦哪一個，我叫你通案處理……"],["鄭部長銘謙：有涉及犯罪的，我們都會嚴辦……"],["張委員啓楷：你在辦死人連署的時候這麼大力，你在大搜索、大收押，但另外這邊我們並沒有看到你該有的動作，這兩個都有這麼多案子啊！部長，我現在問你，其實不是只有25萬人上街，你看到這三個民調，你有覺得臉上很無光嗎？愧對你的職責嗎？你是法務部長耶！看到這份民調你不覺得……檢調這麼辛苦在捍衛我們的人權跟法治，結果人民現在對你們的觀感是這樣子！"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，「檢調」我身為部長怎麼去介入呢？"],["張委員啓楷：不是介入，你當法務部長看到這個沒有難過嗎？你不用做一些改革嗎？沒有反省嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：你認為檢調要偵辦這些犯罪時，難道還要再分不同的……這個可以辦、那個不應該辦嗎？沒有這種事情，凡事有涉及犯罪都應該要辦嘛，而且都是……"],["張委員啓楷：59.3%的民眾認為政府就是選擇性辦案嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不曉得這個民調是從哪裡來，當然可以參考啦……"],["張委員啓楷：這是美麗島電子報啊！這是這一、兩個禮拜最熱門的新聞耶！最重要的是你到底有沒有從裡面得到一些反省和檢討？部長，什麼叫做選擇性辦案？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們沒有選擇性辦案，凡是有涉及犯罪嫌疑的我們就應該要辦……"],["張委員啓楷：人民就是這樣認為嘛，對不對？這個問得具不具體？「政治力有沒有介入檢調機關辦案？」這個題目還不夠清楚嗎？","好，我們繼續來談，你這段時間在辦的死亡連署，我剛才說跟共諜案比起來是一個大、一個小。第二個，我們來看一段話，這是時任法官的現任中選會主委李進勇說的，他說：雖然我有偽造文書，但是你們不要擔心，因為沒有實質傷害，所以我不會有罪。這段時間你們在大搜索、大收押這些往生者幽靈連署的時候，很多人就在提醒你了，不要大炮打小鳥、輕罪，你看李進勇為什麼這樣講？它能產生什麼實質上的傷害？"],["鄭部長銘謙：關於死亡連署的這一種，就像我們講說死人不會爬出來連署啦，我認為凡是涉及犯罪就該辦，所以大院的委員……"],["張委員啓楷：該辦是不是有一個比例原則？法治國家基本的比例原則是不是被你破壞了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：大院的委員也修法通過了，這已經嚴重侵蝕民主政治的基石，所以這個要嚴辦。我想大院委員都是有志一同，就是把……"],["張委員啓楷：你是法務部長，你的講法不要破壞法治國……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我完全是在執行法律……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我問你一下，你現在用的是刑法第二百……"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，你的意思是叫我去叫檢察官說偽造文書都不要辦嗎？是不是這樣？"],["張委員啓楷：所有的犯罪都辦啊，可是你大小總有分啊！現在為什麼有麼多人民說你是選擇性辦案，你共諜案不辦、大的案子也不辦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：共諜案如果沒有辦，那怎麼會有人被收押呢？而且辦案都不分黨派嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：你一直繞在那幾個點，五個案子押了4個人，一個人還20萬交保出去，人民都在笑你們了，人民在笑我們的司法是共諜案比幽靈連署還要輕耶！更重要的我問你，你用刑法第二百十條偽造文書來辦對不對？它的要件是什麼？偽造文書成立的要件是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：偽造、變造他人之私文書……"],["張委員啓楷：足以生損害於什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他人啊！"],["張委員啓楷：損害於公眾跟個人。"],["鄭部長銘謙：他人。"],["張委員啓楷：李進勇是這樣講的，你再看一次李進勇講的話，他說偽造文書……"],["鄭部長銘謙：你不要拿李進勇來當例子，李進勇主委當時講這些話的背景我不清楚，你說這是他在1985年4月的發言，我不曉得是哪個個案，這個我不清楚……"],["張委員啓楷：要去把李進勇抓回來關是不是？大搜索他、大收押他嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有辦法對一個我不清楚的個案表示任何意見。"],["張委員啓楷：他用的就是刑法第二百十條，要足以生損害於公眾或個人嘛！那你連署經過戶、役政……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個連署沒有損害於公眾跟他人嗎？這個嚴重影響及侵蝕民主政治的基石，任何的選舉可以做票、做假嗎？我想這是全民沒辦法接受的。"],["張委員啓楷：先不要講輕罪跟重罪，部長，我問你一個最重要的重點，連署要不要經過戶、役政系統的檢核？會不會篩掉？連署完之後，包括罷免吳思瑤的這些人，他第一個送到中選會要做什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，偽造文書本來就是即成犯了嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：即成犯？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，你只要偽造他人的署押，這個當然就是發生損害了嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：戶役政系統會剔除掉嘛，對不對？有損害嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：怎麼會沒有損害？"],["張委員啓楷：假冒了你的名字去……"],["鄭部長銘謙：只要偽造他人的署押，就是會足生損害了啊！"],["張委員啓楷：連召委都看不下去了！"],["主席：部長，你問問後面的幕僚，不要亂講，法律怎麼是這樣規定的？關於足以生損害公眾或他人的構成要件，你問一下幕僚，這樣會不好意思、會讓人家笑話！"],["吳委員思瑤：召委不要插話。"],["主席：我怕部長讓人家笑話啦！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，在這邊是全民直播、全民都在看喔！"],["吳委員思瑤：我怕委員才會讓人家笑話！"],["張委員啓楷：我剛剛跟你講的，第一個我拿了李進勇的案例給你看。第二個我是就法論法跟你講刑法第二百十條。更重要的，我們的戶役政系統是要篩選的，如果有死人連署，篩選時就剔除了嘛，對不對？有對連署發生影響嗎？這個案子會成立嗎？例如吳思瑤那邊的如果有死亡連署……"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，不是只有偽造文書的問題，還有個資法的問題嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：什麼司法問題？你就法論法，這個問題你要不要去補救？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個個案本來就是一個判斷嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：我從民調、25萬人上街頭，一直跟你講到法律的問題，連民進黨的人都在高喊，林岱樺說政治干預了司法、司法又干預了初選，然後民進黨政府下指導棋、司法介入，斑斑可考、斧鑿斑斑！你看民進黨秘書長林右昌竟然說國民黨這件事情是系統性的組織犯罪，請問這是系統性的組織犯罪嗎？你目前去搜索用的是什麼罪？你押人用什麼？有用系統性組織犯罪嗎？有嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個案件檢察官正在偵辦中，是否會涉及到其他犯罪，我想我沒辦法就個案進行報告。"],["張委員啓楷：有那麼多案子，是不是林右昌講的系統性的組織犯罪？我問你一個最明確的，國民黨現在正在直播，說現在搜索過臺北市黨部、新北市黨部、臺南市黨部，禮拜三要去大搜索國民黨。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是一個個案，個案會搜索哪個地點，檢調會聲請法院來核發，這是令狀主義的。可不可以搜、有沒有必要性，這個也不是檢察官說了就直接有辦法去執行的，還要經過法院的審核、法院開搜索票，我們依照法院開的搜索票去執行的。而且司法、法院本來就是獨立的，怎麼會政治介入呢？黨政高層介入呢？"],["張委員啓楷：對啦，所以你……"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，你誤會啦，沒有這回事啦！沒這回事，誤會啦！"],["張委員啓楷：所以25萬人上街頭吶喊，還有民眾的民調對你們的提醒跟警示，你完全都沒有感覺？你都沒有覺得你們要好好檢討、要去反省嗎？我用一個最具體的做總結好了。請教調查局局長跟部長，那麼多的民眾說你們選擇性辦案，我上次就問了，到目前為止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有請政部長 陳局長麻煩政部長 陳局長 國安局黃副局長 副局長可能詮釋部等一下輪到您自己主動上來回答 謝謝"},{"start":19.148,"end":47.729,"text":"每個會期都是國安會期因應中國的滲透無所不在無恐不入所以我已經多次說每個會期都是國安會期而保密防諜人人有責no one is outsider今天我針對這個主題第二次part2來就教於各位了下一頁當然大家都非常關心共諜所以在立法院各個委員會的專案報告專題報告非常多"},{"start":48.601,"end":65.378,"text":"已經三次了這兩週我們司法法制中線招委也排了兩次那國防委員會也排了一次但我要說呢打共諜其實我們要的是什麼不是一再的把官員叫來這裡問話質詢我們要的是行動"},{"start":71.124,"end":96.191,"text":"立法院的行動是什麼就是著手去完治國安的法治健全就是要修國安法案你們都同意嗎否則每一次專案報告專案報告無限多的專案報告後來還是回到一個要修法不是嗎所以我希望我們下一次針對這個主題是可以具體明確的就修法的部分來做闡述下一頁"},{"start":97.532,"end":116.471,"text":"但是修法的部分非常遺憾最最最最低階最簡單最可行最無害的其實就是兩岸人民關係條例跟港澳關係條例裡頭立委附中的登載這真的是最可行啊"},{"start":117.597,"end":144.735,"text":"最簡便啦可是呢民進黨團的提案已經被擋了363次更不要講民進黨團已經提出國安實法的修法如果連最簡單最低門檻的附中登載在野黨都還要擋的話我不曉得國安的法案怎麼能夠走得下去下一頁"},{"start":145.854,"end":162.441,"text":"我不是危言聳聽喔上週內政委員會民進黨的召委張宏祿具體的排審了國家安全法國安法的九個版本目前為止都是民進黨的立委提案"},{"start":163.666,"end":180.223,"text":"所以大家口口聲聲都要國安都要防止共諜滲透可是在國安法的修法重中之重的國安法只有民進黨九位委員未來要期待行政院的版本"},{"start":181.215,"end":208.095,"text":"甚至那天在內政委員會我非常不解喔我還聽到在野黨的委員說未來要設國安的專業法庭呢這是一個綠色恐怖這是在搞戒嚴這完全是錯誤的理解這是汙名化吧我問一下政部長喔我看到一個數據好像從2016到2023年我們對於國安相關的法院判刑的平均刑度是多少"},{"start":212.208,"end":229.981,"text":"大概是六個月了所以我們在內政委員會審查的時候認為為什麼國安專業的法庭有其必要是因為要讓我們的檢警調有足夠充分的專業跟武器這就是為什麼要修國安法"},{"start":230.902,"end":252.074,"text":"可是在野黨的委員把他汙名化醜化為就是在搞戒嚴我們是在對抗中國欸所以要修國安法我希望下一次審查的時候有在野黨委員的版本我們才能夠真正的應驗在野黨的委員是關心國安的下一頁"},{"start":253.547,"end":278.82,"text":"而共諜的無所不在今天我看到國安局的五個面向的一個訊息的反饋跟彙整這對應於我上週質詢法務部的時候法務部所列舉的有科技掏空、借選滲透、發展組織利用軍人然後最新的有滲透黑幫、滲透國會等等"},{"start":279.54,"end":300.074,"text":"而對應於國安局副局長這邊今天你們的五大面向我想特別問一下你們的第一點就是發展武裝內應啊而且要設立政權接管中央委員會非常的駭人聽聞甚至要組成組集隊就你們的報告裡頭講的是要吸收軍人"},{"start":300.834,"end":327.108,"text":"但我要對應於上週四我站在這個地方我也提出我的詢問滲透黑幫是上週的媒體最新的爆料也就是說買通了黑幫在平時滋擾台灣的社會但是在戰時他們也會利用黑幫成為一個軍火的阻擊單位所以說滲透黑幫跟你們今天的發展武裝內應是不是有相關"},{"start":328.149,"end":345.488,"text":"是跟委員報告這是我們經過國安團隊的一個情搜裡面彙整出來的一個他的一個手法的其中要項之一這也是跟黑幫有絕對的關聯性所以我是要指證你們因為我看到你們的報告寫的武裝內應好像只有講到軍人"},{"start":347.335,"end":371.945,"text":"對不對 事實上黑幫是有而且也是重要的一個滲透的管道嘛我想那這樣我們的理解就更全面也更正確了好 謝謝 下一頁共諜在國會喔其實是不分黨派都有我要再一次的來闢謠在野黨的委員一直在說全部都是綠營才有共諜是這樣嗎"},{"start":374.144,"end":392.998,"text":"你們哪一位可以很簡要的回答一下這段時間在共諜事件在國會有多少個案子啊是不是各黨都有啊好幾個案子都已經是被判很清楚是有刑責的部長你可以簡要回應嗎在共諜在國會"},{"start":395.783,"end":423.754,"text":"這就是一個很簡單 就講事實嘛 各黨都有嘛這個委員有提供資料非常清楚嘛 我這裡整理出來的五個案子三個案子是國民黨 一個案子是民眾黨一個案子是民進黨 而民進黨是高規格的第一時間移送 查辦 開除我們是最嚴格的在自我的提防跟要求反觀在野黨只會造謠"},{"start":425.094,"end":442.686,"text":"他們有這樣子的具體的行動嗎更何況在野黨的委員的助理們滲透國會被中共買通都是具體被判刑的這是事實俱在啊所以說國會有沒有內控的機制下一頁"},{"start":444.858,"end":471.317,"text":"公部門現在有一般查核跟特殊查核是調查局的業務目前在國會並沒有任何查核跟拒絕的機制拒絕應該是全序部在做的那我剛剛也利用之前我聽的片段因為我還有另外的會議好像局長調查局陳局長有說到下一頁您建議或者是鼓勵或是尊重立法院是不是要訂定自己的特查辦法是"},{"start":472.591,"end":488.267,"text":"但如果立法院定了 那是誰來執行定了以後就我們調查局來執行還是嗎你們只有兩個人力耶目前是只有兩個專責人力我整理出來的對應於你們今天的報告目前已經進行了特查的職位是1328個"},{"start":490.769,"end":518.604,"text":"然後你們研議要擴大因為現在我們要把網做大把網做得更密要增加一千零八位對不對只要涉密不是只等而來分是他涉密的這個機會而且要強化增加他的查核的頻率我都支持所以增加下來是要查核的對象有兩千三百三十六個我就問您喔兩千三百三十六個擴大即便是擴大特查有沒有包含"},{"start":519.805,"end":545.998,"text":"當然不會包含立法院的立委我們不是公務人員嘛也不會包含國會助理因為他們不是公務人員任用法的適用的對象但是國會的職員工有沒有在裡面如果是依照公務人員任用法國會的秘書長法治局長好 那如果議事處長或是我們所有的這個對不起 有領公務人員任用的"},{"start":547.082,"end":570.418,"text":"有沒有在我們的特查辦法不管是before或是after有沒有納在裡面目前這1328都沒有含立法院因為他們也是公務員啊所以要納入嘛所以你們增加的1008位未來查核要增加到2336個裡面是不是應當要包含立法院的"},{"start":572.038,"end":589.225,"text":"領公務員 是的 應該是的 最多 非常多所以你們的2336個 就我的理解 目前沒有納入耶要納入 必須納入 國安不能缺一角 漏洞不能在國會"},{"start":590.746,"end":605.257,"text":"但是如果要擴大反而你們說如果要納入國會助理這個是另外一個事情國會助理不是領公務人員的薪水就說不是公務人員擁有法規範的對象所以你們有一個6300個的這個數字是有問題的耶因為國會助理不應當是你們現在現行法規裡有可以特查的對象除非我們自己設一個特查辦法對不對除非但是這個有很多的討論"},{"start":618.396,"end":637.998,"text":"所以說尊重立法院要不要訂特查辦法但未來執行還是調查局人力物力足不足夠這需要思考第二現在的法治裡頭特查辦法應當擴大到立法院的職員工就應當依循應當要納入至於後續你們只有兩個人力啊"},{"start":639.22,"end":648.087,"text":"希望未來審查年度預算的時候預算不會再被為難否則要求你們做更多做更好預算原額不給你們經費不給你們怎麼防共諜怎麼打擊國安啊下一個"},{"start":654.079,"end":677.639,"text":"我很快的說民進黨團會先行民進黨團我們已經針對附中登載的部分我們黨團有高度的共識我們會主動用我們黨團的內規因為在立法院推不動兩岸人民關係條例要立法要修法推不動被擋了363次民進黨團我們會優先針對民進黨團所有的立委跟助理我們會用"},{"start":678.9,"end":690.842,"text":"拒絕的方式我們希望要求主動揭露附中的資訊以達到事前報備事後報告民進黨團先行我們要凸顯這個國會指揮黨國安法案連附中登載這麼輕易能做的事情都不願意做好我最後花一點點時間來下一頁"},{"start":707.144,"end":720.383,"text":"今天我要今天的議程裡頭我特別要跟主席做一下報告上週韓國瑜院長用一個韓文在院會宣告說來援引憲法67條跟大法官釋字461號"},{"start":722.182,"end":738.607,"text":"那特別為我們的立法院秘書長來請了一個永久的免死金牌我認為立法院如果不落實自我的克責強化立法院的自我的治理的話我們沒有資格去要求別人今天的會議下一頁下一頁"},{"start":741.607,"end":759.683,"text":"下一頁我都跳過就國安會也好就總統府的秘書長也好我就引用同樣韓國瑜院長週五院會的宣告同樣用憲法67條跟大法官461號只要是司法監察"},{"start":761.064,"end":782.122,"text":"以及考試院的秘書長都不移到立法院這是憲政慣例馬英九這樣說過王金平前院長這樣說過我就用韓國瑜院長同樣的一個式字來講那為什麼我們的召委一再的要求別人這已經違反大法官解釋喔"},{"start":783.226,"end":809.795,"text":"下一頁金普聰擔任國安會秘書長的時候他也說除了預算案跟法律案國安會到立法院被詢是破壞憲政體制這也是回歸44461號的解釋換言之44461號告訴我們除了法律案跟預算案其他的不應當邀請國安會秘書長總統府秘書長來到立法院但是我回到前面"},{"start":812.492,"end":831.465,"text":"立法院的部分前面因為我們要國會自律跟自我克責我們不在大法官釋字461號所說的三院當中所以大法官並沒有說立法院的秘書長不應當來備詢我看最後一頁那個表格前一頁"},{"start":832.995,"end":854.5,"text":"國安會到國會備詢的記錄都以預算跟法律相關議案為主以王金平院長從第五屆到第七屆邀請的次數這麼多次缺席的次數也很多 為什麼因為當初的國安會就用憲法的主張除了預算案跟法律案秘書長是不需要來備詢的"},{"start":855.78,"end":880.025,"text":"如果回到憲法這就是過去國民黨作為國會龍頭的時候也是這樣來做但是現在似乎立法院的規則亂了套只有立法院的秘書長可以說不來就不來只有立法院的韓國瑜院長可以一再的曲解憲法的精神跟扭曲大法官釋字的精神然後要求別人放過自己"},{"start":881.045,"end":902.116,"text":"我認為國會的自律跟國會的克責我們在探討非常多立法院對於秘書長國會簽件的事務也好我們立法院要防共諜這些剛剛講立法院要自己定查核辦法立法院的特查辦法如果秘書長不來備詢請問我們跟誰討論立法院的特查辦法怎麼定"},{"start":903.362,"end":919.391,"text":"所以說不要言以律己寬以待人我對於大家奉公守法我們繼續努力防共連滲透精進完治所有的法治作業後續民進黨團的所有的國安法案大家一起繼續努力好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":858,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時29分）謝謝主席。有請鄭部長、陳局長，國安局黃副局長。"],["主席：麻煩鄭部長、陳局長、黃副局長。"],["吳委員思瑤：等一下可能提到銓敘部，再請自己主動上來回答，謝謝。","每個會期都是國安會期，因應中國的滲透無所不在、無孔不入，所以我已經多次說，每個會期都是國安會期，而保密防諜、人人有責，No one is outsider！今天我針對這個主題，第二次就教於各位。當然大家都非常關心共諜，所以在立法院各個委員會的專案報告、專題報告非常多，這兩週已經三次了，司法及法制委員的宗憲召委排了兩次，國防委員會也排了一次，但我要說打共諜，其實我們要的是什麼？不是一再地把官員叫來這裡問話、質詢，我們要的是行動，立法院的行動是什麼？就是著手健全國安法制，也就是要修國安法案，你們都同意嘛！否則每一次專案報告、專案報告，無限多的專案報告後來還是回到要修法，不是嗎？我希望我們下一次針對這個主題，可以具體、明確的就修法的部分來闡述。但是非常遺憾，修法的部分最低階、最簡單、最可行、最無害的，其實就是兩岸人民關係條例跟港澳關係條例裡頭的立委赴中登載，這真的是最可行、最簡便。可是民進黨團的提案已經被擋了363次，更不要講民進黨團已經提出國安十法的修法。如果連最簡單、最低門檻的赴中登載，在野黨都還要擋的話，我不曉得國安的法案怎麼能夠走得下去？我不是危言聳聽，上週內政委員會民進黨的召委張宏陸，具體排審了國家安全法，而國安法的9個版本目前為止都是民進黨的立委提案。大家口口聲聲都要國安、都要防止共諜滲透，可是在國安十法修法重中之重的國安法，只有民進黨的9位委員提案，未來要期待行政院的版本。甚至那天在內政委員會，我非常不解，我還聽到在野黨的委員說，未來要設國安的專業法庭是綠色恐怖、是在搞戒嚴，這完全是錯誤的理解，這是污名化吧！我問一下鄭部長，我看到數據，好像是從2016到2023年，法院對於國安相關判刑的平均刑度是多少？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我手上沒有資料。"],["吳委員思瑤：大概是6個月，所以我們在內政委員會審查的時候，為什麼認為國安專業的法庭有其必要？因為要讓檢警調有足夠、充分的專業跟武器，這就是為什麼要修國安法。可是在野黨的委員把它污名化、醜化為是在搞戒嚴，我們是在對抗中國，所以要修國安法。我希望下一次審查的時候會有在野黨委員的版本，我們才能夠真正的應驗在野黨委員是關心國安的。","共諜無所不在，今天我看到國安局五個面向的訊息反饋跟彙整，對應於我上週質詢法務部的時候，法務部所列舉的有科技淘空、介選滲透、發展組織、利誘軍人，然後最新的有滲透黑幫、滲透國會等等。而對應於國安局，副局長，針對今天你們的五大面向，我想特別問一下，你們的第一點就是發展武裝內應，而且要設立政權接管中央委員會，非常駭人聽聞，甚至要組成狙擊隊，就你們的報告裡頭講的是要吸收軍人。但我要對應於上週四，我站在這個地方也提出我的詢問，滲透黑幫是上週媒體最新的爆料，也就是買通了黑幫，平時滋擾臺灣社會；但是戰時他們也會利用黑幫，成為軍火的狙擊單位，所以滲透黑幫跟你們今天提的發展武裝內應是不是有相關？"],["黃副局長明昭：是，這是我們經過國安團隊情蒐彙整出他們手法的其中要項之一，這也是跟黑幫有絕對的關聯性。"],["吳委員思瑤：我是要指正你們，因為我看到你們的報告寫的武裝內應，好像只有講到軍人，對不對？事實上，黑幫是有的，而且也是一個重要的滲透管道，這樣我們的理解就更全面，也更正確了，謝謝。","共諜在國會其實不分黨派都有，我要再一次來闢謠，在野黨的委員一直在說，全部都是綠營才有共諜，是這樣嗎？你們哪一位可以很簡要地回答一下？這段時間共諜事件在國會有多少個案子？是不是各黨都有？好幾個案子都已經很清楚被判有刑責，部長可以簡要回應嗎？共諜在國會，這很簡單就講事實，各黨都有嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個委員的資料有寫……"],["吳委員思瑤：非常清楚！我整理出來的5個案子，有3個案子是國民黨，1個案子是民眾黨，1個案子是民進黨，而民進黨是高規格的第一時間移送查辦、開除。我們是最嚴格的在自我提防跟要求，反觀在野黨只會造謠，他們有這樣具體的行動嗎？更何況在野黨委員的助理們被中共買通、滲透國會，都是具體被判刑的，這是事實俱在。","到底國會有沒有內控的機制？公部門現在有一般查核跟特殊查核是調查局的業務，目前在國會並沒有任何查核跟具結的機制，具結應該是銓敘部在做的。我也利用之前我聽到的片段，因為我還有另外的會議，好像是調查局陳局長有說到，您建議、鼓勵或是尊重立法院是不是要訂定自己的特查辦法嗎？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：如果立法院定了，那是誰來執行？"],["陳局長白立：定了以後就由調查局來執行。"],["吳委員思瑤：還是嘛？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：你們有只有兩個人力！"],["陳局長白立：目前是只有兩個專責人力。"],["吳委員思瑤：我整理出來的對應於你們今天的報告，目前已經進行特查的職位是1,328個，然後你們研議要擴大，因為現在我們要把網做大、把網做得更密，要增加1,008位，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是，我們建議。"],["吳委員思瑤：只要涉密，不是職等來分，是涉密的機會。"],["陳局長白立：接密條件。"],["吳委員思瑤：而且要強化、增加查核的頻率，我都支持。所以增加下來要查核的對象有2,336個，我就問您，即便是擴大特查，2,336個有沒有包含……當然不會包含立法院的立委，我們不是公務人員……"],["陳局長白立：沒有。"],["吳委員思瑤：也不會包含國會助理，因為他們不是公務人員任用法適用的對象。"],["陳局長白立：沒有，是。"],["吳委員思瑤：但是國會的職員工有沒有在裡面？"],["陳局長白立：如果是依照公務人員任用法……"],["吳委員思瑤：國會的秘書長、法制局長。"],["陳局長白立：秘書長沒有。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，如果是議事處長或是我們所有的……對不起，就是有領公務人員任用的，有沒有在我們的特查辦法？不管是before或after，有沒有納在裡面？"],["陳局長白立：目前這1,328個都沒有含立法院。"],["吳委員思瑤：他們也是公務員，所以要納入嘛！"],["陳局長白立：對，所以立法院如果提出來是可以。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以你們增加的1,008位，未來查核要增加到2,336個，裡面是不是應當要包含立法院領公務員……"],["陳局長白立：這樣子會最完善。"],["吳委員思瑤：是的，應該……"],["陳局長白立：因為國會接觸機密的……"],["吳委員思瑤：是的，最多、非常多。"],["陳局長白立：對，比一般公務人員多很多。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以你們的2,336個，就我的理解，目前沒有納入。"],["陳局長白立：沒有。"],["吳委員思瑤：要納入、必須納入，國安不能缺一角，漏洞不能在國會，但是如果要擴大，反而你們說如果要納入國會助理，這是另外一個事情，國會助理不是領公務人員的薪水，不是公務人員任用法規範的對象，所以你們有一個「6,300」的數字是有問題的，因為國會助理不應當是你們現行法規裡可以特查的對象。"],["陳局長白立：沒有，現在沒有……"],["吳委員思瑤：除非我們自己設一個特查辦法，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：除非，但是這個有很多的討論，所以尊重立法院要不要訂特查辦法，但未來執行還要視調查局人力、物力足不足夠，這需要思考。第二，現在的法制裡頭，特查辦法應當擴大到立法院的職員工，就應當依循、應當要納入，至於後續你們只有兩個人力啊……"],["陳局長白立：這個需要增加。"],["吳委員思瑤：希望未來審查年度預算的時候，預算不會再被為難。"],["陳局長白立：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：否則要求你們做更多、做更好，預算員額不給你們，經費不給你們，怎麼防共諜、怎麼打擊國安？","下一個我很快地說：民進黨團會先行，我們民進黨團已經針對赴中登載的部分有高度的共識，我們會主動用我們黨團的內規，因為在立法院推不動，兩岸人民關係條例要立法、要修法，推不動，被擋了363次，民進黨團會優先針對民進黨團所有的立委跟助理，我們會用具結的方式，我們希望要求主動揭露赴中的資訊，以達到事前報備、事後報告，民進黨團先行，我們要凸顯這個國會只會擋國安法案，連赴中登載這麼輕易能做的事情都不願意做。","好，我最後花一點點時間，今天的議程裡頭，我特別要跟主席做一下報告。上週韓國瑜院長用一個函文在院會宣告，援引憲法第六十七條跟大法官釋字第461號，特別為我們的立法院秘書長請了一個永久的免死金牌，我認為立法院如果不落實自我課責，強化立法院自我治理的話，我們沒有資格去要求別人。今天的會議，就國安會秘書長也好、就總統府的秘書長也好，我就引用同樣韓國瑜院長週五院會的宣告，同樣用憲法第六十七條跟大法官釋字第461號，只要是司法、監察以及考試院的秘書長都不宜到立法院，這是憲政慣例，馬英九這樣說過，王金平前院長這樣說過，我就用韓國瑜院長同樣的一個釋字來講，為什麼我們的召委一再要求別人？這已經違反大法官解釋喔！","金溥聰擔任國安會秘書長的時候，他也說除了預算案跟法律案，國安會到立法院備詢是破壞憲政體制，這也是回歸釋字第461號的解釋。換言之，釋字第461號告訴我們，除了法律案跟預算案，其他的不應當邀請國安會秘書長、總統府秘書長來到立法院。但是立法院的部分，因為我們要國會自律跟自我課責，我們不在大法官釋字第461號所說的三院當中，所以大法官並沒有說立法院的秘書長不應當來備詢。我們看簡報最後一頁的表格，國安會到國會備詢的紀錄都以預算跟法律相關議案為主，以王金平院長從第5屆到第7屆邀請的次數這麼多次，缺席的次數也很多，為什麼？因為當初的國安會就用憲法的主張，除了預算案跟法律案，秘書長是不需要來備詢的。如果回到憲法，過去國民黨作為國會龍頭的時候也是這樣來做，但是現在似乎立法院的規則亂了套，只有立法院的秘書長可以說不來就不來，只有立法院的韓國瑜院長可以一再地曲解憲法的精神跟扭曲大法官釋字的精神，然後要求別人、放過自己。我認為國會的自律跟國會的課責，我們在探討非常多立法院的相關議案，包括國會遷建的事務也好，我們立法院要防共諜，剛剛講到立法院要自己訂查核辦法、立法院的特查辦法，如果秘書長不來備詢，請問我們跟誰討論立法院的特查辦法怎麼訂？所以不要嚴以律己、寬以待人，對於大家奉公守法，我們繼續努力，防共諜滲透、精進完備所有的法制作業，後續民進黨團所有的國安法案，大家一起繼續努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","下一位請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":353,"meetingDate":["2025-05-05"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法\n院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘\n部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜\n滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00007"}}},{"id":"160950","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160950","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38e90b73e994f9b785a6b3acb7e1da897d3e2c5f8a9bba8ee65f04f813228685f356dd5f590e44185ea18f28b691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在這邊先有請調查局陳局長還有國安局的副局長然後等會再請行政總署的處長先這樣"},{"start":38.092,"end":55.033,"text":"我想今天這個召委又召開要檢討在總統府國安會外交部等等有發生共諜滲透的案件那麼相關法制的檢討那麼很遺憾的就是國安會"},{"start":56.906,"end":72.481,"text":"秘書長再一次拒絕出席到司法法治委員會裡面來接受監督備詢那麼我想依照國安會組織法的規定第八條國安會組織法第八條的規定"},{"start":73.522,"end":89.216,"text":"國家安全會議及其所屬國家安全局應受立法院的監督國家安全局的組織另以法律定之我想這是非常清楚的所以請教副局長您認為在第八條裡面的規定國安會到底受不受到立法院的監督"},{"start":91.131,"end":114.929,"text":"只要有法治的一個規範當然就是要受到立法院的監督所以國安會議的吳釗燮秘書長今天他已經屢次拒絕來立法院接受備詢您認為他這樣的行為可取嗎我想這個是我們不介意評論我們尊重"},{"start":116.908,"end":128.352,"text":"但是基本上這是法條清清楚楚規定在那裡嘛就是第八條的規定國安會議及所屬國家安全局應受立法院的監督我再三的重申這條規定是現行的規定國安會議的秘書長"},{"start":133.553,"end":160.454,"text":"沒有任何的理由可以不來司法院可以不來我們立法院的司法法治委員會接受備詢所以呢他已經一而再再而三的拒絕去履行他法律上的義務這個基本上是已經是違法了這個監察院都應該要進行調查好那接下來呢我要這個詢問的就是這一次在"},{"start":162.464,"end":187.357,"text":"再次發生這個在總統府就是這個大家可以看這個關係圖那麼這次我們看到國安會的秘書長吳釗燮他的之前的這個助理還有像前立法院的院長立委以及這個立委許智傑等等他們的這個助理都涉及到有洩露國家機密那麼可能就是潛藏在"},{"start":190.98,"end":194.067,"text":"我們總統府裡面的一些間諜那麼針對這個問題我想當然現在檢調單位已經開始偵辦可是長官有沒有責任"},{"start":207.114,"end":221.293,"text":"請問國安局副局長我想這個案件的偵辦中涉及到偵查不公開的法治規範那到底是剛剛所詢的部分我們沒有評論"},{"start":225.013,"end":244.811,"text":"請問調查局針對這個案子現在偵辦的情況 除了所列的像何仁傑等等這些所謂的助理們之外有針對他們的長官 過去他們曾經服務過的長官有進行調查嗎目前案件都還在偵查中 我無法在這邊跟委員說明"},{"start":247.176,"end":272.104,"text":"好那看起來就是你們基本上啊就是只是打蒼蠅不打老虎那麼事實上像這種這個洩露國家機密的這種案件不可能說只有助理會只有助理自己做長官既然這麼多年都沒有發現都沒有察覺我個人是感到非常的不可思議我認為說其實檢調單位也應該要好好的去了解"},{"start":276.065,"end":281.751,"text":"督導他們的長官是不是也是其中的共犯那麼在這邊我要再問一個問題剛剛審發會委員說"},{"start":290.324,"end":306.334,"text":"我們在講到馬英九時代到底有沒有發生過在總統府內而且是掌管國安最高的首長他的親信曾經是有像現在這樣的間諜的情況在馬英九時代有過嗎看總統府的案件"},{"start":311.498,"end":328.148,"text":"包委員這個可能要再查一下過往的一些案件的資料應該是沒有在馬英九時代有哪個國安會的秘書長然後曾經有發生過這樣的案子是說他的這個曾經他的這個助理是共諜"},{"start":330.219,"end":346.436,"text":"沒有吧至少新聞還有你們現在剪掉的紀錄應該是沒有這樣子的案子吧很多案件因為是機密的他其實在偵查跟審理這麼多年了都還是機密中間其實都沒有公開是來了我們再請那個司法院的這個巡視廳廳長"},{"start":349.96,"end":375.544,"text":"在蔡英文政府執政的期間大修國安五法然後這個增修了上數百條的這個條文可是呢事實上這個從今天司法院的報告裡面我們可以知道真的違反國安法的案件大概有多少件我剛剛有報告曾經有處理過的曾經處理過我們在現在有對判決的案件大概十幾二十件吧"},{"start":376.907,"end":397.942,"text":"超過 超過 就23件嘛 如果按照你的報告裡面最多就是23件嘛對 是 那個是在最高法院的部分是 由此可見 雖然我們現在的國安武法修了這麼多的條文但是真的可能會違反國安武法的案件數其實非常少"},{"start":399.045,"end":423.268,"text":"如果從這個角度來看到底是法律的問題還是執法的問題還是說是根本檢調單位抓匪諜抓不利啊就是你沒有好好的這個也沒有能力或者是也沒有認真的去抓這些共諜所以本協議的看法是認為說這樣子我們現在的國安武法其實已經立法相當嚴格了"},{"start":424.761,"end":430.042,"text":"如果說再要加鹽有它的必要性嗎 有它的實益嗎"},{"start":431.864,"end":458.103,"text":"這部分我可能就不評論了因為有關案件的多廣那才涉及到第一線偵辦人員對個案的處理了解 當然這個本席是要談就是說其實對於現在民進黨政府不斷的要再加嚴修法不管是兩岸人民關係條例或是國家安全法以及其他的相關的法規本席認為說基本上沒有那個實意"},{"start":460.425,"end":477.784,"text":"因為我們的法律已經定得很清楚了只是說執法上面的問題檢調到底有沒有好好的去真的去抓到這些可能洩漏國家機密的人跟法律本身的良善基本上是無關那麼我現在接下來要談的就是說"},{"start":479.466,"end":499.541,"text":"事實上在這一次我們看到大家的這個關心的焦點就在於說對於特殊查核辦法理念到底現在有哪一些人那麼他們是要接受特殊查核的那麼事實上特殊查核辦法的它的母法是什麼請任總 要不要請調查局這邊"},{"start":507.14,"end":530.141,"text":"公務人員任用法那公務人員任用法主要規範對象是?公務人員所以他可以現在進一步的透過修法去規範所謂的約聘部人員嗎?所以這個部分其實能夠有完整的法制是會比較完善"},{"start":531.109,"end":555.059,"text":"沒錯這就是我在講的我基本上我也認為說應該要在擴大特殊查核的範圍但是我們還是必須要符合法律的規定嘛不能夠違反法律優惠原則明明我們現在的特殊查核辦法裡面他的母法就是公務人員任用法而這個公務人員他是指的是狹義的公務員"},{"start":557.04,"end":581.01,"text":"他並不是指的是像刑法上廣義的公務員所以你現在你要修這個特殊查核辦法然後來去規範所有的機要、約聘、公務、幕僚、人員等等這個基本上是違反法律的原則的這樣的做法是不對的我想請那個法務部部長 請鄭部長您對這個議題的看法"},{"start":587.904,"end":606.764,"text":"這個要涉及到這個是一個自願性的一個行政院是就行政級首屬機關構來做一個做擴大特殊查核的一個範圍所以您的意思說現在又是透過行政指導的方式然後呢請大家自己去申報去填嗎"},{"start":608.157,"end":633.9,"text":"就像是請這個落委會要求各個部會這個下令所有的公教人員都要填據結書的意思是一樣嗎他其實沒有法源依據但是透過行政指導或是其他的這個行政措施然後要求大家一定要填那委員都關心這個議題那不然是不是可以請我們來考試院來做一個推動的一個修法"},{"start":635.028,"end":648.216,"text":"考試院還有人事總署修這個辦法跟人種有關是嗎這是考試院的主管法官考試院主管那考試院你們的看法咧可以透過修辦法來擴大對於"},{"start":652.478,"end":681.467,"text":"約聘過人員的管理嗎委員好 我是學區部法規司雷司長那這部分跟委員報告因為任用法如同剛剛委員您提到的它規範的是公務人員啦那就它授權的特查辦法現在目前的規範對象也是公務人員必須要受特殊查核那麼行政院它現在正在檢討這個針對非公務人員任用的部分要怎麼樣來處理那我們會根據行政院它最後檢討的結果呢"},{"start":681.927,"end":701.314,"text":"我們再以共同來研議看看需要再怎麼樣在法制上面予以補足是的我這邊要提醒行政院如果現在要檢討的話可能要去看我們在我們的國家機密保護法裡面或者是這個其他的相關法規有沒有適合的法源依據而不是"},{"start":702.034,"end":730.801,"text":"透過現代公務人員任用法裡面的他這個所授權制定的特殊查核辦法裡面去規定因為這完全不符合法的體系更何況本席認為其實最應該規範的就是在行政院還有總統府國安會等等這些重要的政務人員啊所以我看了這個相關的這個特殊查核這個一覽表裡面這當然因為主要是針對公務人員所有所有的重要的首長都不在裡面"},{"start":731.861,"end":754.478,"text":"然後規範都是秘書啦 或是什麼檢任職的這些事務官但是具有最核心掌握到那個國家機密的像國安會秘書長 外交部部長 國安局局長就不在這個受到要去特殊查核的範圍裡面所以由此可知 這個整個法律的體系是出了很大的問題"},{"start":756.57,"end":775.542,"text":"如果說你掌握這麼重要國家機密的首長都可以不受特殊查核的這個相關的這個這樣子的條件的這個拘束的話那麼你更不用說他的這些助理們好那麼總之就是本席認為說其實"},{"start":778.564,"end":799.177,"text":"就現在你們要辦理的這個特查對象的範圍還是要回到原來我們的法律是怎麼規定的那麼如果說你們要擴大辦理你們有能力嗎如果說行政院硬是要你們之後你們現在是特殊查核是多少一千三百多人是不是請那個調查局"},{"start":800.658,"end":826.426,"text":"目前表列是1328那未來如果說看到你們上面講說這個可能會增加到兩三千人甚至還如果要把立法院當成這個提列辦理特查對象要高達6300多人你們調查局有這樣的人力物力嗎目前沒有 必須要增加人力還有預算你們這個調查的項目說實在話我也不知道你們是不是真的有能力去查核"},{"start":827.622,"end":848.993,"text":"看起來都是自願申報啊如果是有犯罪紀錄這是很清楚的包委員它其實是兩個層次第一個就是說受查核的人他必須要自己誠實的去申報他必須要簽名然後針對受查的人他申報的這個內容他機關才會函給我們調查局來做複查的意思"},{"start":850.134,"end":865.524,"text":"好 因為像有沒有犯罪紀錄 這個是一調就知道就像我們辦兩民證一樣嘛 對不對那有沒有什麼定期去探討 或是他的這個血親 陰親是不是曾經有在大陸地區 這都屬於自動申報但他自動申報他說沒有 你們還有能力去查核嗎"},{"start":867.865,"end":883.982,"text":"就沒有辦法嘛簡單來說是這樣而且我還要再強調一件事情你們特殊查核依照現在法律的規定是在任用之前就要進行查核可是如果說他已經任用了在他的就任的時間裡面你們有辦理定期查核嗎"},{"start":884.554,"end":908.62,"text":"目前的法規是沒有 目前法規是派任 出任 派任 還有調任這三個狀況的時候必須得 機關得 函請調查局做這個特殊查核那現在未來的檢討修改的方向就是說希望就是說這個職位如果他在那邊待了很久那看是要一年或兩年或三年 我們必須要再重新做一次查核"},{"start":909.681,"end":924.72,"text":"所以我認為這個反而是你們先要做的不是只有在派任之前或是新任之前做查核而是未來要強化的是定期查核每一年或一年半兩年你至少要重新review一次"},{"start":925.18,"end":954.039,"text":"對 沒錯 沒錯我們現在是朝這個方向 這個是重點當然政務人員的部分尤其是掌握國家安全和重要機密的這些政務人員首長一定要列入查核那我的看法是說 你們去看看嘛國家機密法或是相關其他的情報工作法裡面應該也都有法源依據可以去規範現在行政院也是朝這個方向在指示 在規劃"},{"start":955.701,"end":965.818,"text":"謝謝委員支持OK 這是我基本上我的看法不要再回到我們剛剛講的公務人員任用法裡面去找那個不適合的法源依據以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":788,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時4分）主席好。先有請調查局陳局長，還有國安局的副局長，然後等會再請人事行政總處的處長。"],["主席：麻煩陳局長及黃副局長。"],["翁委員曉玲：我想今天召委又召開在總統府、國安會、外交部等等機關發生共諜滲透案件相關法制的檢討，很遺憾的，國安會秘書長再一次拒絕出席司法及法制委員會接受監督備詢。依照國安會組織法第八條的規定，國家安全會議及其所屬國家安全局應受立法院之監督，國家安全局組織另以法律定之。我想這是非常清楚的，所以請教副局長，您認為依據第八條的規定，國安會到底受不受立法院的監督？"],["黃副局長明昭：只要有法制的規範，當然就是要受到立法院的監督。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，國安會議的吳釗燮秘書長已經屢次拒絕來立法院接受備詢，您認為他這樣的行為可取嗎？"],["黃副局長明昭：我想這個我們不加以評論，我們尊重。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，但是基本上法條清清楚楚規定在那裡，就是第八條的規定，國安會議及所屬國家安全局應受立法院的監督。我再三地重申，這條規定是現行的規定，國安會秘書長沒有任何理由可以不來我們立法院的司法及法制委員會接受備詢，他已經一而再、再而三地拒絕履行他法律上的義務，基本上已經違法了，監察院都應該要進行調查。","接下來，我要詢問的是，大家可以看到這個關係圖，這次我們看到國安會秘書長吳釗燮之前的助理，還有像立法院的前院長以及立委許智傑等等，他們的助理都涉及洩漏國家機密，可能就是潛藏在我們總統府裡面的一些間諜。針對這個問題，當然現在檢調單位已經開始偵辦，可是長官有沒有責任？請問國安局副局長。"],["黃副局長明昭：這個案件在偵辦中，涉及偵查不公開的法制規範，針對剛剛委員所詢問的部分，我們沒有評論。"],["翁委員曉玲：請問調查局，針對這個案子現在偵辦的情況，除了所列的像何仁傑等等這些助理們之外，有針對過去他們曾經服務過的一些長官進行調查嗎？"],["陳局長白立：目前案件都還在偵查中，我無法在這邊跟委員說明。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，看起來你們基本上只是打蒼蠅、不打老虎，事實上像這種洩漏國家機密的案件，不可能只有助理自己做，長官竟然這麼多年都沒有發現、都沒有察覺，我個人感到非常的不可思議，我認為檢調單位也應該要好好的去了解，他們的長官是不是也是其中的共犯。","在這邊我要再問一個問題，剛剛沈發惠委員提到，在馬英九時代到底有沒有發生過在總統府內，而且是掌管國安的最高首長，他的親信曾經發生過像現在這樣的間諜的情況，在馬英九時代有過嗎？"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，這個可能要再查一下過往一些案件的資料。"],["翁委員曉玲：應該是沒有，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：我不敢在這邊說沒有……"],["翁委員曉玲：在馬英九時代，有哪個國安會的秘書長曾經發生過這樣的案子，也就是他曾經的助理是共諜？沒有吧？至少新聞，還有你們現在檢調的紀錄應該是沒有這樣子的案子吧？"],["陳局長白立：很多案件因為是機密的，其實在偵查跟審理……"],["翁委員曉玲：這麼多年了都還是機密？"],["陳局長白立：是，這中間其實都沒有公開。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們再請司法院的刑事廳廳長，在蔡英文政府執政的期間大修國安五法，增修了數百條的條文，可是事實上從今天司法院的報告裡面我們可以知道，真的違反國安法的案件大概有多少件？"],["李廳長釱任：我剛剛有報告過……"],["翁委員曉玲：曾經有處理過的。"],["李廳長釱任：曾經處理過的，我們在……"],["翁委員曉玲：現在有罪判決的案件大概十幾、二十件吧？"],["李廳長釱任：超過。"],["翁委員曉玲：就23件嘛！按照你的報告，最多就是23件嘛！"],["李廳長釱任：對，那個是在最高法院的部分。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，由此可見，雖然現在的國安五法修了這麼多的條文，但是真的可能會違反國安五法的案件數其實非常少，如果從這個角度來看，到底是法律的問題、執法的問題還是根本是檢調單位抓匪諜不力？就是你沒有能力或者是也沒有認真地去抓這些共諜。所以本席的看法是，我們現在的國安五法其實已經立法相當嚴格了，如果要再加嚴，有它的必要性嗎？有它的實益嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：這部分我可能就不評論，因為有關案件的多寡，那個還涉及到第一線偵辦人員對個案的處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：了解。本席要談的是，現在民進黨政府不斷地要再加嚴修法，不管是兩岸人民關係條例、國家安全法或是其他相關的法規，本席認為基本上沒有那個實益，因為我們的法律已經訂得很清楚了，只是執法上面的問題，檢調到底有沒有真的好好地去抓那些可能洩漏國家機密的人？這跟法律本身的良善基本上是無關的。","我接下來要談的是，這一次我們看到大家關心的焦點就在於特殊查核辦法裡面，到底現在有哪一些人是要接受特殊查核的？事實上特殊查核辦法的母法是什麼？請人總或是調查局回答。"],["陳局長白立：公務人員任用法。"],["翁委員曉玲：公務人員任用法主要規範的對象是誰？"],["陳局長白立：公務人員。"],["翁委員曉玲：公務人員嘛！所以它現在可以進一步地透過修法去規範所謂的約聘僱人員嗎？"],["陳局長白立：所以這個部分如果能夠有完整的法制，是會比較完善的。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒錯，這就是我在講的，基本上我也認為應該要再擴大特殊查核的範圍。"],["陳局長白立：謝謝委員支持。"],["翁委員曉玲：但是我們還是必須要符合法律的規定，不能夠違反法律優位原則。"],["陳局長白立：是，這當然。"],["翁委員曉玲：明明現在特殊查核辦法的母法就是公務人員任用法，而這個公務人員指的是狹義的公務員，並不是指像刑法上廣義的公務員，所以現在你要修特殊查核辦法去規範所有的機要、約聘僱、幕僚人員等等，這個基本上是違反法律優位原則的，這樣的作法是不對的。我想請教法務部鄭部長對這個議題的看法。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是一個自願性的，行政院是就行政院及所屬機關（構）擴大特殊查核的範圍，我想這有它的必要性。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以您的意思是，現在又是透過行政指導的方式，然後請大家自己去申報、去填嗎？就像是陸委會要求各個部會下令所有的公教人員都要填具結書的意思是一樣嗎？它其實沒有法源依據，但是透過行政指導或是其他的行政措施，然後要求大家一定要填。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員如果關心這個議題，不然是不是請考試院來推動修法？"],["翁委員曉玲：考試院還有人事總處，對不對？修這個辦法也跟人總有關，是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是考試院的主管法規。"],["翁委員曉玲：考試院主管？那考試院的看法呢？可以透過修辦法來擴大對於約聘僱人員的管理嗎？"],["雷司長諶：委員好。我是銓敘部法規司雷司長。這部分跟委員報告，因為任用法如同剛剛委員提到的，它規範的是公務人員，就它授權的特查辦法，目前的規範對象也是公務人員必須要受特殊查核。行政院現在正在檢討針對非公務人員任用的部分要怎麼樣來處理，我們會根據行政院最後檢討的結果再共同來研議，看是要怎麼樣在法制上面予以補足。"],["翁委員曉玲：是的。我這邊要提醒，行政院如果現在要檢討的話，可能要去看在我們的國家機密保護法或是其他相關的法規裡面有沒有適合的法源依據，而不是透過現在公務人員任用法所授權制定的特殊查核辦法裡面去規定，因為這完全不符合法的體系。更何況本席認為其實最應該規範的是在行政院、總統府、國安會等等這些重要的政務人員，我看了相關的特殊查核一覽表裡面，因為主要是針對公務人員，所以所有的重要首長都不在裡面，規範的都是秘書或是簡任職的事務官，但是具有最核心、掌握到國家機密的人員，像國安會秘書長、外交部部長、國安局局長就不在受到要去特殊查核的範圍裡面。由此可知，這整個法律的體系是出了很大的問題，如果連掌握這麼重要國家機密的首長都可以不受特殊查核相關條件拘束的話，更不用說他的助理們。","總之，本席認為就現在你們要辦理的特查對象的範圍，還是要回到原來我們的法律是怎麼規定的，如果你們要擴大辦理，你們有能力嗎？如果行政院硬是要你們擴大辦理，你們現在特殊查核是多少？一千三百多人是不是？請教調查局。"],["陳局長白立：目前表列是1,328人。"],["翁委員曉玲：未來如果像你們上面說的可能會增加到兩、三千人，甚至如果立法院也提列辦理特查對象，要高達六千三百多人，你們調查局有這樣的人力、物力嗎？"],["陳局長白立：目前沒有，必須要增加人力及預算。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，我們再看一下，你們這個調查的項目，說實在話，我也不知道你們是不是真的有能力去查核，看起來都是自願申報啊！如果有犯罪紀錄，這是很清楚的。"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，它其實是兩個層次，第一個就是受查核人必須要自己誠實地去申報，他必須要簽名，然後針對受查核人申報的內容，機關才會函給調查局來做複查。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，因為像有沒有犯罪紀錄，這個是一調就知道的，就像我們去辦良民證一樣，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：有沒有什麼定期去探親，或是他的血親、姻親是不是曾經有在大陸地區，這些都屬於自動申報，但如果他自動申報說沒有，你們還有能力去查核嗎？就沒有辦法了嘛！簡單來說就是這樣。而且我還要再強調一件事情，你們特殊查核，依照現在法律的規定是，在任用之前就要進行查核，可是如果他已經任用了，在他就任的時間裡面，你們有辦理定期查核嗎？"],["陳局長白立：目前的法規是沒有，目前法規是初任、派任及調任這三個狀況的時候，機關「得」函請調查局做特殊查核，不過未來檢討修改的方向是，他如果在這個職位待了很久，看是要一年、兩年或是三年，我們必須要再重新做一次查核，這是未來的方向。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以我認為這個反而是你們現在要做的，不是只有在派任之前或是新任之前做查核，而是未來要強化的是定期查核，每一年、一年半或兩年，你至少要review一次。"],["陳局長白立：對，沒錯，我們現在是朝這個方向建議。"],["翁委員曉玲：這個是重點，當然政務人員的部分，尤其是掌握國家安全和重要機密的這些政務人員首長一定要列入查核。我的看法是，你們去看看國家機密保護法或是其他相關的國家情報工作法裡面，應該也都有法源依據可以去規範政務人員的部分。"],["陳局長白立：有，現在行政院也是朝這個方向在指示、在規劃，謝謝委員支持。"],["翁委員曉玲：OK，基本上，這是我的看法，不要再回到我們剛剛講的公務人員任用法裡面去找那個不適合的法源依據。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我們依據先前的宣告，休息5分鐘。5分鐘之後，由吳思瑤委員進行詢答，謝謝。","休息（11時20分）","繼續開會（11時28分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":353,"meetingDate":["2025-05-05"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法\n院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘\n部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜\n滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00007"}}},{"id":"160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有請兩位不來我們請仁總仁總也不來仁總不來 仁總先來請問你是培訓考用處處長處長有來 調查局局長也請上台"},{"start":42.154,"end":56.757,"text":"兩位好,我想今天這個召委這樣的安排是很有意思啦,整個國安的破口,那如何要去做一個防堵。那剛剛省委員在提,我也是有感而發啦,"},{"start":58.258,"end":82.39,"text":"這個本來上個會期跟這個會期其實在程序委員會吳宗憲委員召委,你也是程序委員召委剛好我們翁曉琳委員也是召委那確實是國安法案在程序委員會裡面一次次把它給擋掉那今天來召集這樣的一個議題其實就有一點悲感,讓人覺得有點感慨"},{"start":83.45,"end":108.57,"text":"那其實國安這個不分黨派國家事其實是大家的啦那針對公務人員忠誠的查核這個部分那我想公務人員的忠誠這個查核這倒也不是什麼新的命題啦這個早在2002年的時候這個在修正公務人員任用法當中你說一般的查核裡面的國籍犯罪事態可以產生五種的法律效果任用"},{"start":109.19,"end":127.305,"text":"不任用免職辦理退休或支錢或撤銷這一個任用那特殊查核的部分啊就其實啊是針對沒有有沒有去受過外國政府勢力的利誘跟密切接觸外患可以得到任用跟不任用這樣的一個結果可是呢我請任總先說明一下就是說你知道我們喔"},{"start":132.415,"end":148.538,"text":"社會大眾可能會產生一個疑惑,就是說你在追查,你在這套查核的一個制度,你們過去有什麼弊端嗎?從2000多年到現在,那變成說造成現在的國安的一個破口,那這個部分是不是任總先說明一下?"},{"start":149.71,"end":175.299,"text":"跟委員報告因為就是辦法規定是說各機關就是要去檢視一下要去提列他的特查職務然後提列特查職務之後這個職務要禁用的時候他們會函請調查局辦理特查所以剛剛隨委員所提示的那個弊案的部分因為是前端的部分人事單位是機關是函送調查局辦理特查所以這部分恐怕我們是沒有掌握到什麼"},{"start":175.979,"end":182.966,"text":"其實你們到 我都覺得任總到也不是只有人事的這樣的一個後臺而已啦你們其實是國安的一個前哨"},{"start":184.295,"end":207.201,"text":"我倒是這樣認為,你像比如說4月17號行政委員會裡面講說面對境外的敵對勢力要按照公務人員的一個任用法第四條去做特殊的一個查核那你們人事長會後也講說會去思考是不是每一年規律查核的一個方向去進行"},{"start":209.122,"end":226.983,"text":"那你還沒去做什麼制度,要怎麼補破網?行政院開完以後,兩禮拜你方案就可以開出來了?你以為兩禮拜急救張出來,你們真的可以達到什麼防堵國安破口的一個效果嗎?"},{"start":227.657,"end":243.051,"text":"跟委員報告就是目前總署已經遵照院長的指示事項就是我們在研修那個特查辦法的草案包括就是剛剛委員所提到的那個查核的評次啊不是進來之後查了就沒事了那此外那個查核的內容"},{"start":243.852,"end":269.946,"text":"因為查核的內容最近有一些像是相關國安法規的修正什麼的是不是查核的項目要檢視然後另外就是院長也有提示到說目前那個任用法制不是依照任用法禁用的其他類的人員 聘僱人員等等這部分要怎麼樣子的去強化那個特查的機制就是這個我總之都依照那個院長的指示在那個積極的研議處理中這個我就叫局長了局長我剛才看"},{"start":272.813,"end":281.858,"text":"人種這個地方的講法你說國安這個部分這其實只要有涉案或者牽扯到國安這聽起來就非常肅殺會不會有這樣的感覺尤其是這個針對的是公務人員的一個部分我們過去在強調公務人員基於是特別權力關係"},{"start":291.96,"end":316.017,"text":"那當然就變成說公務人員的忠誠是一種義務那這些我都有點擔心啦在這種肅殺的情況之下你們這個第一線的人會不會去嚴守這樣一個偵辦的過程的一個比例原則這個也不可不慎啦不可不慎以前當事人特別權力關係裡面當事人的地位根本就不對等嘛"},{"start":316.653,"end":339.745,"text":"對不對 然後你的衣物也都不確定嘛還有一些特別的一個規則在 我也很怕有特別的規則跑出來那變成說 連以前連徵送都不得徵送的但是經過那麼多的憲法的一個大法官會議的一個解釋出來以後台灣其實現在也都不一樣了那你怎麼樣 逐漸去落實在如果有公務人員保障法的一個修訂的時候尤其是針對這些國安事件"},{"start":345.227,"end":353.731,"text":"國民有期待 可是呢 偵辦起來又虎虎生風然後到最後呢 常常都是一陣風 後面就沒有人去追蹤了"},{"start":357.535,"end":379.364,"text":"這個要特別特別的謹慎今天我看這兩個委員也提出他們的一個擔憂啦 擔憂啦可是有犯罪 你說自己始作俑者自己犯罪完以後在那邊哇哇叫這也沒有道理啦 可是呢 可是呢 確實啊司法這一線 那個界線真的也要掌握清楚啦 也要掌握清楚啦"},{"start":379.764,"end":391.352,"text":"所以我特別又要來就教的就是說像我們這一次的修法裡面接下來可能會動用到修法的部分今天張偉排這個像總統府跟國安會"},{"start":396.282,"end":415.894,"text":"到底要不要到立法院來備詢這個都是高度政治的一個爭議啦就是說其實在大法官會議裡面當然也有講清楚也有講但是也未必清楚那沒有講清楚的時候大家都會想說那憲政上有沒有慣例憲政上有慣例的不來啦"},{"start":417.176,"end":434.088,"text":"像我上禮拜禮拜 禮拜年必須頂 無憲政慣例的人都不來 無憲政慣例的你就哭哭白那當然有高度的政治性的爭議的時候 在立法院裡面本來就是會攻防就是會攻防 可是呢 我擔心到一點是什麼"},{"start":435.632,"end":461.693,"text":"立法院 國安破口的部分 你去把它看立法院那立法院裡面 我們都很擔心各個地方都會不會形成一個破口以現在來看的話 立法院的助理的部分根本就不屬於你們這個特殊插核的你們現在 我看起來你們一共有幾項咧不在那個正面表列你們正面表列都中幾項"},{"start":463.956,"end":490.233,"text":"一千三百二十八項的職務裡面那你就沒有去涵蓋到立法院這個部分那立法院 立法院有這些助理其實都要接收到一些國家的一個機密那其實他是有機會的那有沒有可能 你們有沒有什麼樣的一個建議啦你要說叫立法院來率先治律 那不可能啦立法院就只會管別人而已 立法院要怎麼管自己"},{"start":492.073,"end":510.598,"text":"啊 立法院有時候又沒人要死啊 委會又比較笨大咧你叫這些立法院的助理辦公室自己去弄出一個法案然後說 我把這個1328項職務裡面把立法院的國會助理全部把他給納進去這我有時候覺得這有點違背人性你們有沒有什麼建議"},{"start":511.358,"end":530.664,"text":"我們就是建議 我們還是完全都尊重立法院國安不能講尊重 國安不是講尊重 我說你真正的想法你真正的想法是一個拿出來講嘛我們當然是希望立法院能夠制定一個特查的一個辦法讓我們能夠有一個依循的一個特查的一個依據"},{"start":532.084,"end":540.574,"text":"這個喔 大家在說跌啦 國民黨就覺得他跟中國比較好 他就開始跟民進黨說 你也跌 你也共 你也綠共這個當然是胡說八道啦 但問題就是說 國會裡面 你去把它看這一些產生國安破口的 他不會分黨派 他不會分黨派"},{"start":553.163,"end":555.804,"text":"民進黨執政 最好是在你民進黨旁邊在國會裡面 國會助理 或者是政府部門裡面把你放進他們想要的這些情報人員我們就稱之為蝶了嘛對岸的境外勢力 中國對我們的影響是最大的可是重點就是說 任何人執政的時候"},{"start":573.169,"end":587.102,"text":"他都會被安插的一個對象所以如果要把它定性成說這個叫諜的話那也可以叫共的話那也可以就是老共對我們就是太糟糕太有這個敵意嘛但問題是你去把它看為什麼會講出說在國會裡面這個不會分黨派我記憶最深刻的就是說你看這"},{"start":597,"end":611.812,"text":"當年協助駭客進入健保系統要去竊取蔡英文總統的 前總統的病歷判十當嘛齁陳薇仁那個啊那也一樣啦在以前國民黨的立委辦公室裡面所以這個就可以證明就是說"},{"start":612.953,"end":632.247,"text":"這些所謂的諜 大家很討厭的要來企圖來影響台灣的一個國安的他不會去分黨派所以局長你剛提到的是說這樣的一個漏洞你也建議立法院自己本身來啟動修法是這樣子嗎是是國安局要來 國安局來 國安局來"},{"start":634.142,"end":649.694,"text":"反正這對你也很重要這其實都國安的 我也不可以讓你自己一直在那裡喝茶你再看你目前是否完成對中央 五院跟信義機構裡面沒有納入安全查核制度人員的風險去做盤點"},{"start":653.862,"end":671.768,"text":"我想這個是其他部會或者院裡面層級需要去做一個盤點只要有接觸到機敏資料的這些人我們建議在法制面建制完整要做一個查核這樣才能補上國安的一個漏洞"},{"start":672.228,"end":693.917,"text":"你就不敢大膽說 人家調查局長剛才就很敢說的說你立法院當然建議你去修法 把人家給堵起來啊專業在這裡說都沒關係啦 專業在這裡說都沒關係啦各黨我相信有時候只是政治攻防而已你真正講到核心問題的時候 大家還是要對你們要有尊重啦所以就是說調查局這樣也認為 國安局這邊其實你們也認為國會這一塊其實還是要補破網嘛"},{"start":698.346,"end":725.771,"text":"是不是這樣說應該是要把它補起來啦是嘛 所以你也緊錄他 你也緊錄他這樣所以啦 人總我要再追問的就是說那你現在現行高風險職務你欠缺這樣的一個查核制度你是不是只針對公務人員任用法的適用對象或者立法院助理因為身份沒有納入有沒有可能改依職務赦命的程度來劃分標準而非用身份來做區分"},{"start":729.036,"end":730.758,"text":"但是妳對日本人也是沒辦法 妳這樣說也是沒辦法"},{"start":752.716,"end":779.747,"text":"跟委員報告那個院外的部分院外的部分那如果是工人任用法規禁用的那當然是用特查辦法沒有問題那至於其他的人員因為就是就像剛剛其他部會所講就尊重那個立法院用人機關你們當然會講尊重啦但是我必須要再次的提醒啦國會它不應該是國安的一個死角啦也更不能成為制度漏洞的一個庇護所啦你說面對無所不在這種滲透跟威脅"},{"start":781.485,"end":809.981,"text":"任何地方都不應該有特權啦咱不是這樣說?頂頭嘛 局長應該是嘛 官員也應該是嘛所以這個部分其實還是要想辦法要提出你們的一個比較比較敏感 因為重要的大膽的去做一個建言啦這國家大家的啦 這國家大家的啦現在的台灣呢民主台灣跟過去那種威權的台灣不一樣啦這官員 大家可以做多久"},{"start":811.597,"end":820.289,"text":"國會議員也不能說做多久 言所當然嘛不是這樣說 制度有缺漏 你本來就是要趕快去做一個補強啦好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":744,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時50分）謝謝主席。有兩個沒來，我們請人總，人總也沒來，人總沒來？"],["主席：有。"],["莊委員瑞雄：人總是誰來？不好意思！請問你是？"],["李處長花書：委員好！我是培訓考用處處長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：處長，處長有來。調查局局長也請上臺一下。"],["主席：請局長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：兩位好！我想今天召委這樣的安排很有意思，針對整個國安的破口要如何去防堵。剛剛沈委員提的，我也是有感而發！上個會期及這個會期在程序委員會，吳宗憲召委也是程序委員會的召委，剛好翁曉玲委員也是召委，確實在程序委員會裡面，你們一次次把國安法案給擋掉了，今天又來召集這樣的議題，就讓人覺得有一點感慨！","其實國安不分黨派，國家是大家的。針對公務人員忠誠查核這個部分，我想公務人員的忠誠查核倒也不是什麼新的命題，早在2002年修正的公務人員任用法當中，一般查核裡面的國籍、犯罪等事態就可以產生五種法律效果，包括任用、不任用、免職、辦理退休或資遣、撤銷任用，特殊查核的部分其實是針對有沒有受過外國政府勢力的利誘與密切接觸下犯罪，可以產生任用、不任用這樣的結果，可是我請人總先說明一下，我們社會大眾可能會產生疑惑的就是這套查核制度過去有什麼弊端嗎？不然，怎麼會從2002年到現在變成造成國安的一個破口，這個部分是不是人總先說明一下？"],["李處長花書：跟委員報告，因為辦法是規定各機關要去檢視、提列他的特查職務，提列特查職務之後，這個職務要進用的時候，他們會函請調查局辦理特查，所以剛剛委員提示的弊案，因為是前端的部分，人事機關是函送調查局辦理特查，所以這個部分恐怕我們沒有掌握到什麼……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我倒覺得人總也不是只是人事這樣的後臺而已，你們其實是國安的一個前哨，我倒這樣認為。比如4月17日行政院院會裡面就講，面對境外敵對勢力，要按照公務人員任用法第四條，需要去做特殊查核；人事長會後也講，會去思考是不是每一年往規律查核的方向去進行。那麼久也沒有弄出什麼制度，要怎麼補破網？行政院院會開完以後，兩個禮拜你們的方案就可以拿出來了？你認為兩個禮拜這樣急就章出來的，真的可以達到防堵國安破口的效果嗎？"],["李處長花書：跟委員報告，目前總處已經遵照院長的指示事項，研修特查辦法的草案，包括剛剛委員提到的查核頻次，不是進來之後查了就沒事；此外，查核的內容，因為最近有一些相關國安法規的修正，所以查核的項目是不是要檢視；另外，院長也有提示到，目前不是依照任用法進用的其他類人員，包括聘僱人員等等，這個部分要怎麼樣去強化那個特查機制。總處都依照院長的指示在積極的研議處理中。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個我就要就教局長，局長。"],["陳局長白立：委員好！"],["莊委員瑞雄：我剛剛看人總在這個地方的講法，其實國安的部分，只要有涉案或者牽扯到國安，聽起來就非常肅殺，會不會有這樣的感覺？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：尤其針對公務人員的部分，我們過去強調公務人員幾乎是特別權力關係，當然公務人員忠誠就變成是一種義務，我都有一點擔心，在這種肅殺的情況之下，你們這些第一線的人在偵辦過程中，會不會嚴守這樣的比例原則，這個也不可不慎。以前在特別權力關係裡面當事人地位根本就不對等，對不對？然後所負的義務也都不確定，而且還有一些特別的規則在，我就很怕又有特別的規則跑出來，會變成在以前連爭訟都不得爭訟的，可是經過大法官會議對憲法做了那麼多的解釋以後，臺灣其實現在也都不一樣了，那你要怎麼樣逐漸去落實在如果有修訂公務人員保障法的時候，尤其是針對這些國安事件，你們這個「手路」實在是……國民有期待，偵辦起來虎虎生風，可是到最後常常都是一陣風過了，到後面就沒有人去追蹤了，所以這個要特別、特別的謹慎。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：今天在野黨委員也提出他們的擔憂，可是有犯罪，自己是始作俑者，自己犯罪完以後又在那邊哇哇叫，這也沒有道理啦！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可是確實司法的這一條界限真的要掌握清楚，也要掌握清楚啦！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我特別要來就教的就是，像在我們這一次的修法裡面，接下來可能會動用到修法的部分，今天召委排這個議程，像總統府跟國安會到底要不要到立法院來備詢，這個都是有高度政治的爭議，其實在大法官會議裡面當然有講到，但是也未必清楚，那沒有講清楚的時候，大家都會想說在憲政上有沒有慣例，憲政上有慣例的卻不來啦！像我上禮拜排的會議有邀請立法院的秘書長，那是有憲政慣例的，可是他不來，像這種沒有憲政慣例的，你就一直排。那當然在有高度政治性爭議的時候，在立法院裡面本來就是會攻防，可是我擔心的一點是什麼？就是立法院國安破口的部分，你去看立法院，我們都很擔心立法院裡面的各個地方會不會形成一個破口，以現在來看的話，立法院的助理這個部分根本就不屬於你們特殊查核的範圍，我看你們現在一共有幾項……"],["陳局長白立：不在那個正面表列的職務裡面。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們正面表列總共有幾項？"],["陳局長白立：總共有1,328個職務。"],["莊委員瑞雄：在這1,328項職務裡面並沒有去涵蓋到立法院這個部分，尤其立法院這些助理都要接收到一些國家機密，其實他們是有機會的，你們有沒有什麼樣的建議？你要叫立法院來率先自律，不可能啦！立法院就專門在管別人而已，立法院怎麼會自己管自己，立法委員有時候又忙得要死，有的還比較懶惰，你叫這些立法院的助理辦公室自己去弄出一個法案，然後在1,328項職務裡面把立法院的國會助理全部給納進去，我會覺得這有點違背人性，你們有沒有什麼建議？"],["陳局長白立：我們還是完全都尊重立法院，我們還是建議立法院是不是能夠制定……"],["莊委員瑞雄：國安不能講尊重，國安不是在講尊重，你真正的想法要拿出來講。"],["陳局長白立：我們當然是希望立法院能夠制定一個特查辦法，讓我們能夠有一個可以依循的特查依據。"],["莊委員瑞雄：大家在說「諜」，國民黨讓人家覺得它跟中國比較好，它就開始跟民進黨說你也「諜」、你也「共」、什麼綠共，這個當然是胡說八道。但問題就是在國會裡面，你去看這一些產生國安破口的不會分黨派，他們不會分黨派，民進黨執政的時候，最好是在民進黨旁邊、在國會裡面的國會助理或者政府部門裡面，放進他們想要的這一些情報人員，我們稱呼這個叫「諜」了，對岸的境外勢力、中國對我們的影響是最大的。重點就是任何人執政的時候都是會被安插的對象，所以如果要把他定性成這個叫「諜」的話也可以，叫「共」的話也可以，老共就是對我們太糟糕、太有敵意。但問題是，我為什麼會講出在國會裡面這個不會分黨派？我記憶最深刻的就是當年協助駭客進入健保系統，要去竊取蔡英文前總統的病歷而被判刑10年的陳惟仁，那個也一樣，是在以前國民黨立委的辦公室裡面。所以這個就可以證明，這些大家很討厭的、要企圖來影響臺灣國安的「諜」，他不會去分黨派，所以局長剛剛提到說，這樣的一個漏洞，你也建議立法院自己本身來啟動修法，是這樣子嗎？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：國安局有來嗎？國安局，這對你們也很重要，這其實都與國安有關，我也不能讓你一直只坐在那邊喝茶。"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們目前是不是已經完成對中央五院及涉密機關中「未納入安全查核制度人員」的風險盤點？"],["黃副局長明昭：我想這個是其他部會或者院裡面的層級需要去做盤點，對於有接觸到機敏資料的這些人員，我們建議在法制面建置一個完整的查核機制，這樣才能補上國安的漏洞。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你就不敢大膽的說，剛才調查局長就很敢說，說當然建議立法院要去修法，把它補起來。專業的在這裡說都沒關係，我相信各黨有時候只是政治攻防而已，你真正講到核心問題的時候，大家對你們還是要有尊重。調查局也這樣認為，國安局也認為國會這一塊還是要補破網嘛！是不是這樣說？"],["黃副局長明昭：應該是要把它補起來啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛！你們也認為是這樣，所以我要再來追問人總的是，現行「高風險職務欠缺查核制度」是不是只針對公務人員任用法的適用對象？像立法院助理因為身分沒有納入，有沒有可能改依職務涉密的程度來劃分標準，而非用身分來做區分？"],["李處長花書：跟委員報告，職務涉密程度的部分目前有初步的想法，但是還要跟各機關會商，可能會再請各機關提列的時候用教示性的文字，就是請他們要按照院長的指示、按照揭密的程度去提列特查的職務。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是你這樣說對立法院你也是沒辦法啊！是不是這樣說？"],["李處長花書：跟委員報告，院外的部分，如果是公務人員任用法規進用的，那當然適用特查辦法沒有問題，至於其他的人員，就像剛剛其他部會所講的，就是尊重立法院用人機關……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們當然會講尊重啦！但是我必須要再次的提醒，國會不應該是國安的一個死角，更不能成為制度漏洞的一個庇護所，面對這種無所不在的滲透跟威脅，任何地方都不應該有特權，是不是這樣說？點頭嘛！局長應該是這樣認為嘛！國安局也應該是嘛！所以這個部分其實還是要想辦法提出你們的看法，因為比較敏感、重要，要大膽的建言。這個國家是大家的，現在的臺灣，民主臺灣跟過去那種威權的臺灣不一樣，做官員可以做多久？國會議員也不能說可以做多久，言所當言嘛！制度有缺漏，本來就是要趕快補強，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請翁曉玲委員發言，翁曉玲委員發言完畢之後休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":353,"meetingDate":["2025-05-05"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法\n院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘\n部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜\n滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00007"}}},{"id":"160948","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160948","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38e90b73e994f9b70e003e6be96867a97d3e2c5f8a9bba8e0c8bc14232be7724f6fa5687ff727cf65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"10:37:53 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發現一個漏洞我們在制度上面我們就那個案子我們來偵辦同時在制度上面我們從同類的案件我們下去下去了解有沒有相類似的案子再來從制度上面我們要來防堵這就是發現這個案子而不是發現案子之後我們馬上就來這個國安會來你要負責民進黨裡面有發現共諜所以民進黨叫做綠共"},{"start":491.158,"end":516.674,"text":"先反過來指責被害人一發生過來指責說你們民進黨為什麼所以你們民進黨叫做綠共那今天什麼今天所有的宮廟這些公主都是公共這些黑幫是黑共民眾黨有發言人所以民眾黨這個是重共"},{"start":520.644,"end":544.472,"text":"這種扣帽子,然後在這邊這種政治語言,我個人認為是大可不必啦在政治上,大家也都知道在玩什麼樣的把戲啦這個我列出這麼多,大家可以參考啦而且說現在民進黨這麼嚴重那我們看看過去馬英九執政的時候就沒有嗎?欸馬英九餒"},{"start":545.779,"end":567.205,"text":"馬英九執政的時候我們國家沒有這些案件被滲透嗎我這邊列出來的馬英九時代的他當任總統時代所發生的這些相關的國安案件有這麼多嗎所以我想這個我一直很不希望說把這個立法院這樣子的質詢當作這個政論節目這樣子來談論藍綠立場"},{"start":572.728,"end":600.825,"text":"但是我認為這些事情我們大家就是要嚴肅的看待我們從制度面上面來防堵未來有可能的這個發生我們現在發生的案子我們嚴密偵辦我們要發現他們的手法我們要發現他們相關的滲透的方式與法律的制裁同時我們也從這些案件裡面去發現這樣子的模式然後我們再"},{"start":602.434,"end":627.813,"text":"來修補我們的制度 我們的漏洞如果真的有心我們立法院自己我們就應該稍微來安排一個剛才王宏威委員問我們立法院的助理需不需要安全查核這個很好啊 叫周萬來來啊安排叫立法院秘書長周萬來來報告我們國安立法院的國安 立法院也沒有政風"},{"start":631.018,"end":650.021,"text":"然後再來現在的這個兩岸人民關係條例來修改啊我們自己立法院的這些委員到中國沒有限制說不能去但是要報備連核准都不用報備這樣子也不行再有程序委員會擋了363次什麼叫程序委員會擋363次就是不讓你討論你討論都不讓你討論不讓你排進議程"},{"start":661.078,"end":671.523,"text":"不要說贊成加強對立法委員附中國的這些報備程序不要說我贊成我連反對的權力都沒有因為程序委員會就把你封殺了"},{"start":675.027,"end":691.557,"text":"這些國家安全的相關法令的修改修法過程裡面在阻擋然後在這裡在安排這個我們要怎麼樣防堵這個國家機密資訊外洩然後要別人提出檢討報告在我看這個就是標準的雙標所以"},{"start":697.722,"end":712.701,"text":"我也看到說我們現在行政院主任長他也有所宣示我希望我們法務部及相關的單位我們按照我們政府現在目前有關這些相關防治措施的強化我們能夠積極研議能夠加強管理 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那主席我想接下來我請那個法務部部長麻煩部長還有國安局"},{"start":92.903,"end":96.525,"text":"副局長還有調查局局長我先請教部長因為在這次共諜案裡面除了這次的他的涉及的單位層級之高讓大家非常驚訝之外那另外大家也特別關注到"},{"start":117.937,"end":142.608,"text":"之前大家也提到這個盛楚英他在立法院從游錫堃院長時代他就已經擔任助理然後也有著我們非常多位的立委的辦公室包含許智傑還有這個郭育晴委員以及這個羅美玲委員那麼後來呢這個盛楚英呢是以20萬元交保"},{"start":143.248,"end":163.308,"text":"那大家就在質疑作為共諜案這麼嚴重的一個這樣的涉案情節是20萬元交保但是如果我們再去比較其他的比如說最近社會高度關注的那個挖眼案這個鄰居之間吵架然後呢就是挖了雙眼"},{"start":164.885,"end":178.755,"text":"導致永久性的失明這個案子呢是12萬元交保然後接下來就是最近鬧得沸沸揚揚我們現在剪掉全台大搜索大羈押"},{"start":179.836,"end":207.543,"text":"的這個有關於連署民進黨立委的這個案子這裡面呢包含我們之前也提到這個四位年輕人分別以30萬元跟50萬元交保更不要說最近包含這個台北市黨部的主委黃綠錦如在內還有我們最近包含台中市黨部的這個書記長在內非常多人都被羈押進鑑"},{"start":208.763,"end":224.437,"text":"所以請問部長請問共諜案它的情節是不是比挖掩案就是跟挖掩案還有這個所謂的你所謂的偽照文書到底我們這個交保金額它的評斷標準是什麼"},{"start":226.158,"end":250.453,"text":"以這三個案子 過去還有喔 多多偽照文書過去也有我們零一級委員涉入了是 就是到就是有詐領助理費 也有偽照文書他的助理大概最高也是十萬元交保好 那麼這樣的太陽這麼多但是這個交保金額卻讓在我們社會一般大眾來講覺得這個情節重大 完全跟"},{"start":253.855,"end":258.622,"text":"並不符合比例原則所以請問一下部長請問我們這交保金額是怎麼定的"},{"start":261.019,"end":287.813,"text":"跟委員報告就是檢查部當然是在涉及不同的一個案件的一個嫌疑都是會秉持客觀公正的執法態度那因為但是這個每個個案的情節是不同的那有關於金額交保的一個的金額多寡或者要不要羈押或者等等的強制處分權的一個一個行使都是要個案來判斷"},{"start":288.573,"end":307.839,"text":"我想這都是符合法律的規定沒有什麼標準可言這不是說沒什麼標準 這個就是要個案的一個判斷那我想請問 如果說以罷免民進黨立委的案件是不是他的涉案會比共諜案更嚴重"},{"start":309.516,"end":325.091,"text":"這個個案的情況不同我沒辦法就個案對於國家社會安全的危害來做一個來答覆無法相比這個個案不同個案的情況不同我沒辦法就因為我不是承辦檢察官我沒辦法就個案來"},{"start":326.232,"end":352.999,"text":"大概交保金額多少或者要不要羈押因為我們一般社會大眾對於司法總是有一個大家一般的這個有一把尺所以我在講說如果按照這個交保金額所以連署民進黨立委的這個他的危害情節比涉及供諜案更嚴重比挖掩案更嚴重造成人家永久失明更嚴重其他的那個供涉及供諜都羈押禁建"},{"start":353.959,"end":376.078,"text":"但是還是有一位是交保啊但是那個個案的案件不一樣情況不一樣那個我沒辦法就委員的說到底是要交保或治啊因為每個個案的情形不一樣所以委員說為什麼要交保那共鐵不願意說當然共鐵是很嚴重的行為但是每個個案由懲辦檢查去按照這個個案"},{"start":377.139,"end":406.152,"text":"的一個不同的一個狀況去做不同的強制處分錢的一個行使請問一下這個聖楚英這位助理他目前仍然是交保中嗎現在是20萬交保嗎這是20萬交保那當時大家也談到很多既然涉及共諜案其他人都被抓起來然後他可不可以在外面就是湮滅證據或者是他有沒有逃跑的嫌疑等等有沒有考慮在內"},{"start":406.892,"end":412.175,"text":"這個檢察官都會通盤來考量這個個案的我沒辦法幫檢察官來回答這個問題因為個案是檢察官我必須要講我剛才想列出這幾個交保的金額案例這跟我們一般的民眾對於涉案情節的重大真的有非常大的一個不同我想請問一下我們調查局局長"},{"start":434.397,"end":454.574,"text":"好 局長在你們的報告裡面談到就是因為這一次因為涉及的這個共諜在我們政府高層裡面非常多就特別談到了就是有關於中程查核的對象現在呢行政院要把中程查核對象要擴大嘛 對不對是"},{"start":456.254,"end":478.676,"text":"按照你們的說法 那麼就是會把原來原來的這個終審查核對象按照現在行政院從會從1300多位增加到2300多位 是嗎目前第一階段希望能夠 對就是這個已經是確認的事情了嗎現在目前朝這個方向在規劃 還沒有做最後的確認"},{"start":480.362,"end":508.75,"text":"所謂還沒有做最後的確認是什麼意思你們不是說要針對政務官還有約聘僱的人員特別是跟著這些手掌在旁邊的這些約聘僱的這些助理啊秘書啊因為這次出現事情的大部分都是這一類的人員老師說啦以前很多都是啊這個手掌一路帶著像吳釗燮這個何仁傑就是如此啊一路"},{"start":510.091,"end":528.828,"text":"從那個他去哪裡他就帶到哪裡因為從這個民進黨之內就開始一路把他帶上去那這些人就是有關於這一些手掌旁邊的旁邊的這些助理機要是不是應該列入查核範圍內應該"},{"start":530.529,"end":550.607,"text":"好 所以這個應該是確定的 增加1008元所以目前就是朝這個方向在規劃那我另外請問你喔 我另外請問你在你的報告裡面有講說你們也準備針對立法院這應該是包含立法委員跟立法院的助理做特殊查核嗎這個我們尊重立法院"},{"start":552.223,"end":568.776,"text":"我不曉得你的意思是什麼 因為你們是準備把它擴大這個不是行政院單方面能夠決定的 這個完全要尊重立法院那為什麼會列入呢因為很多立委也有提出來"},{"start":570.382,"end":585.13,"text":"什麼叫很多立委提出來如果說他的助理要請我們調查局來做這個特殊查核那可不可以但是我們就沒有任何的法律意義我記得你當時你的回答是因為你們現在沒有相關的規定比如說我懷疑我的助理那我覺得應該要做一下這個中層查核"},{"start":593.194,"end":616.709,"text":"那所以你這個意思我不懂因為看到你的報告感覺上是要你們全部擴大到立法院包含對立法委員的忠誠查核對立法委員的助理所以我不想 所以你這個報告是什麼意思這個報告的意思就是我們沒有辦法擴大到立法院但是如果說立法院覺得這個部分也很重要"},{"start":617.389,"end":639.894,"text":"必須要納入特殊查核的話 那立法院必須要先訂定自己內部的一個規定所以的意思說 它必須變成一個通案而不是說今天我個案 我比如說我王洪威覺得請調查局對我的辦公室同仁做忠誠查核所以它不能成為個案 而是必須要成為"},{"start":640.774,"end":666.371,"text":"通案要成為通案好那另外再請教在你們辦這個共諜案的時候因為比如說立法委員的助理他橫跨好幾位委員比如說你們辦聖楚音的時候你們有沒有通知他所屬的立委辦公室的立委然後告訴告訴他我們要辦他的共諜案沒有沒有完全沒有知會不可能"},{"start":667.412,"end":675.643,"text":"完全沒有智慧所以同樣的半合人節的時候有沒有智慧國安會讓國安會知道這個事情"},{"start":677.079,"end":705.619,"text":"都沒有所以不管總統府 國安會 或者立法委員在你們懷疑或者偵辦的過程裡面那麼你們都沒有事先告知沒有 我們調查局不會這是確定的喔 因為我們這邊確定 非常確定確定沒有因為大家會質疑說為什麼他有些都可以事先他就先請離職是不是事先已經有得到封聲"},{"start":707.557,"end":733.844,"text":"有從各種管道得到風聲 比如說聖楚音在辦你確定 完全沒有我非常確定 我非常負責任的跟委員回答那另外 對不起 再給我一點點時間我請一下我們國安局副局長 請教一個問題過去 之前的金巡局局長曾經說在台灣大概有五千名共諜在活動"},{"start":734.804,"end":759.961,"text":"但是以我們現在所抓的看起來只是非常非常的少數如果說有五千名共諜如果說我們過去其實掌握大概有五千名共諜有在活動的話那以我們現在所進行偵辦或者是調查或者起訴浮上檯面的非常非常之少所以請問一下這個五千名他到底這個數目有沒有是太碰烘還是事實上確實是如此"},{"start":765.685,"end":790.464,"text":"根據我們的掌握我們手頭上是沒有那麼多人但個人的評論他個人的評論我們不加以置評那會不會把現有在中級人士在台失聯的這些人把他算在裡面我們沒辦法去做一個所以國安局現在手上掌握就是懷疑的數目字沒有那麼多有沒有一半"},{"start":791.516,"end":813.69,"text":"有沒有兩三千我想這個數據我不方便在這邊因為有些案件都進入到一個偵辦的一個程序沒有 我只是說總共大概你們有掌握的人數是多少這個不涉及個案這個人數我們是有掌握但是我這邊不方便在這邊來說明但是只是沒有五千名這麼多而已是是好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":637,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時24分）謝謝主席。主席，在我質詢之前，仍然要針對總統府和國安會沒有派代表來參加這次司法及法制委員會的專題報告提出質疑，事實上，這兩個單位都已經被證實有共諜涉入，這是非常嚴重的事情，尤其賴政府現在認定中共是境外敵對勢力，也要求升高我們整個的國安意識，但是今天在我們的最高單位，總統府跟國安會都已經出現涉嫌共諜，但是這兩個單位竟然連代表都不來參加、來報告，我覺得不但是藐視國會，也顯示我們的政府不過是說一套做一套，所以在這邊我們一定要再譴責，尤其國安會秘書長……其實包含國防及外交委員會也曾經排會，然後我們司法及法制委員會也排會，但是都不到立法院來報告，我覺得這樣子根本就是完全藐視共諜案對於我們國安造成的影響。","主席，接下來我請法務部部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["王委員鴻薇：還有國安局副局長。"],["主席：國安局副局長。"],["王委員鴻薇：還有調查局局長。"],["主席：調查局局長。"],["王委員鴻薇：我先請教部長，在這次共諜案裡面，除了這次涉及的單位層級之高讓大家非常驚訝之外，另外大家也特別關注到……之前大家也提到盛礎纓，他在立法院從游錫堃院長時代就已經擔任助理，然後也遊走我們非常多位立委的辦公室，包含許智傑還有郭昱晴委員，以及羅美玲委員。後來盛礎纓是以20萬元交保，大家就在質疑，共諜案這麼嚴重的涉案情節是以20萬元交保。但是如果我們再去比較其他的，比如最近社會高度關注的挖眼案，鄰居之間吵架，然後挖了雙眼導致永久性的失明，這個案子是12萬元交保。接下來就是最近鬧得沸沸揚揚，現在檢調全臺大搜索、大羈押，有關於連署民進黨立委的案子，這裡面包含我們之前也提到，4位年輕人分別以30萬元跟50萬元交保，更不要說最近包含臺北市黨部的主委黃呂錦茹在內，還有最近包含臺中市黨部的書記長在內，非常多人都被羈押禁見。請問部長，請問共諜案的情節是不是比挖眼案……就是跟挖眼案，還有你所謂的偽造文書，到底我們交保金額的評斷標準是什麼？以這三個案子……過去還有喔！如果是偽造文書，過去也有林宜瑾委員涉入的詐領助理費，也有偽造文書，他的助理大概最高也是10萬元交保，態樣有這麼多，但是這個交保金額對我們社會一般大眾來講，覺得這個情節重大並不符合比例原則，所以請問一下部長，請問我們的交保金額是怎麼定的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，檢察官在涉及不同案件的審理都會秉持客觀公正的執法態度，但是每個個案的情節是不同的，有關於交保金額的多寡，或者要不要羈押，以及強制處分權等等的行使，都是要個案來判斷，我想這都是符合法律的規定，沒什麼不同的……"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有什麼標準可言？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是說沒什麼標準，這個就是要個案的判斷。"],["王委員鴻薇：那我想請問，如果以罷免民進黨立委的案件來講，是不是其涉案會比共諜案更嚴重？"],["鄭部長銘謙：個案的情況不同，我沒辦法就個案……"],["王委員鴻薇：它對於國家社會安全的危害……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒辦法按照個案答復。"],["王委員鴻薇：無法相比？"],["鄭部長銘謙：個案的情形不同，因為我不是承辦檢察官，我沒辦法就個案說明交保金額多少或者要不要羈押，這個要由他來判斷。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我們一般社會大眾對於司法總是有一個……一般來說有一把尺，所以我在講，如果按照這個交保金額來看，連署民進黨立委的危害情節比涉及共諜案更嚴重、比挖眼案更嚴重、比造成人家永久失明更嚴重嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，其他涉及共諜的都羈押禁見。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，但是還是有一位是交保。"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是個案的案件不一樣、情況不一樣，我沒辦法跟委員說到底是要交保或羈押，因為每個個案的情形不一樣，所以委員說為什麼是交保，難道共諜不嚴重嗎？共諜當然是很嚴重的行為，但是每個個案是由承辦檢察官按照個案不同的狀況，做不同強制處分權的行使，所以你說……"],["王委員鴻薇：請問一下，盛礎纓這位助理目前仍然是交保中嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在是20萬交保。"],["王委員鴻薇：就是20萬交保？"],["鄭部長銘謙：嗯。"],["王委員鴻薇：當時大家也談到很多，既然涉及共諜案，其他人都被抓起來，他可不可以在外面湮滅證據或者是他有沒有逃跑嫌疑等等，有沒有考慮在內？"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官都會通盤考量，個案的部分，我沒辦法幫檢察官回答這個問題，因為個案是檢察官按照判斷……"],["王委員鴻薇：我必須要講，我剛剛列出這幾個交保的金額案例，這跟我們一般民眾對於涉案情節的重大真的有非常大的不同。","我想請問一下調查局局長。"],["陳局長白立：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：局長，在你們的報告裡面談到，這次因為涉及的共諜在我們政府高層裡面非常多，特別談到關於忠誠查核的對象，現在行政院要把忠誠查核對象擴大，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：按照你們的說法，現在行政院會把原來的忠誠查核對象，從一千三百多位增加到兩千三百多位是嗎？"],["陳局長白立：目前第一階段希望能夠……"],["王委員鴻薇：這個已經是確認的事情了嗎？"],["陳局長白立：目前朝這個方向在規劃，還沒有做最後的確認。"],["王委員鴻薇：所謂還沒有做最後的確認是什麼意思？你們不是說要針對政務官還有約聘僱的人員？特別是跟在首長旁邊約聘僱的助理、秘書，因為這次出現事情的大部分都是這一類人員，老實說，以前很多都是首長一路帶著，像吳釗燮的何仁傑就是如此，他去哪裡就把他帶到哪裡，從民進黨之內就開始一路把他帶上去。有關於這一些首長旁邊的助理、機要是不是應該列入查核範圍內？"],["陳局長白立：應該。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這個應該是確定的，增加1,008人。"],["陳局長白立：目前就是朝這個方向在規劃，但是因為……"],["王委員鴻薇：那我另外請問你，在你的報告裡面有講，你們也準備針對立法院，這應該是包含立法委員跟立法院的助理做特殊查核嗎？"],["陳局長白立：這個我們尊重立法院。"],["王委員鴻薇：我不曉得你的意思是什麼，因為你們是準備把它擴大。"],["陳局長白立：這個不是行政院單方面能夠決定的，這個完全要尊重立法院。"],["王委員鴻薇：那為什麼會列入呢？"],["陳局長白立：因為很多立委也有提出來啊！對啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼叫很多委員提出來？"],["陳局長白立：很多委員也有提出來，如果他的助理要請我們調查局來做這個特殊查核可不可以？但是我們就沒有任何的法……"],["王委員鴻薇：對，我記得當時你的回答是你們現在沒有相關的規定……"],["陳局長白立：沒有法源依據。"],["王委員鴻薇：比如我王鴻薇懷疑我的助理，我覺得應該要做一下忠誠查核……"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你這個意思……我不懂，因為看到你的報告，感覺上你們是要全部擴大到立法院，包含對立法委員的忠誠查核，對於立法委員的助理……"],["陳局長白立：我們沒有辦法擴大到立法院。"],["王委員鴻薇：我不曉得……所以你這個報告是什麼意思？"],["陳局長白立：這個報告的意思就是我們沒有辦法擴大到立法院，但是如果立法院覺得這個部分也很重要，必須要納入特殊查核的話，立法院必須要先訂定自己內部的規定辦法，我們才有一個執行的依據。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你的意思是說，它必須變成一個通案，而不是今天以我這個個案，比如我王鴻薇請調查局對我的辦公室同仁做忠誠查核，所以它不能成為個案……"],["陳局長白立：沒辦法。"],["王委員鴻薇：而是必須要成為通案？"],["陳局長白立：一個通案。"],["王委員鴻薇：要成為通案。好，另外再請教，在你們辦這個共諜案的時候，比如立法委員的助理橫跨好幾位委員，像你們在辦盛礎纓的時候，你們有沒有通知他所屬辦公室的立委，然後告訴他要辦他的共諜案？"],["陳局長白立：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：完全沒有知會？"],["陳局長白立：不可能。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以同樣地，辦何仁傑的時候有沒有知會國安會，讓國安會知道這個事情？"],["陳局長白立：不可能。"],["王委員鴻薇：都沒有？"],["陳局長白立：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以不管總統府、國安會或者立法委員，在你們懷疑或者偵辦的過程裡面，你們都沒有事先告知？"],["陳局長白立：沒有，我們調查局不會。"],["王委員鴻薇：這是確定的嗎？"],["陳局長白立：確定。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我們這邊……"],["陳局長白立：非常確定。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為大家會質疑，為什麼有些人都可以事先先行離職，是不是事先已從各種管道得到風聲，比如說在辦盛礎纓？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：你確定完全沒有？"],["陳局長白立：我非常確定，我非常負責任地回答委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：對不起，再給我一點點時間，我請一下國安局副局長。"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：請教一個問題，之前的軍情局局長曾經說，臺灣大概有5,000名共諜在活動，但是以我們現在所知道的，看起來只是非常非常的少數。如果我們過去掌握到大概有5,000名共諜在活動的話，以我們現在所進行偵辦、調查或起訴浮上台面的可謂非常非常之少。請問這5,000名的數目到底是太「膨風」還是事實上確實是如此？"],["黃副局長明昭：根據我們的掌握，我們手頭上沒有那麼多人，但對他個人的評論，我們就不加以置評，至於會不會把現有中籍人士在臺失聯的這些人算在裡面，我們沒辦法做一個……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以國安局現在手上掌握到的可疑數目字沒有這麼多？"],["黃副局長明昭：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：有沒有一半？有沒有兩、三千？"],["黃副局長明昭：我想這個數據就不方便在這邊……有些案件都進入偵辦的程序了。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有，我只是說total你們掌握到的人數大概是多少？不涉及個案。"],["黃副局長明昭：這個人數我們是有掌握，但是我這邊不方便說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是沒有5,000名這麼多而已？"],["黃副局長明昭：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位我們請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":353,"meetingDate":["2025-05-05"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法\n院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘\n部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜\n滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00007"}}},{"id":"160946","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160946","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38e90b73e994f9b7f9720120498c62747d3e2c5f8a9bba8e0c8bc14232be7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國安會 外交部那連環報了這個共諜案"},{"start":82.546,"end":107.776,"text":"那涉案的人員讓人家非常的這個驚訝是長期都接觸國家機密但是卻完全沒有有效的動態查核那顯示我們的這個國安整個制度有點名存實往雖然一些委員也針對這個部分做了質詢但是大家目前針對過往這個部分的失靈似乎也沒有太多的交代跟回應"},{"start":109.036,"end":128.348,"text":"也感覺到很無力所以尤其對於政務在這些應該被查核的人員當中呢政務、約聘跟特聘的人員如同你們所講的沒有相關的這個查核的依據那是不是這顯示了一個制度設計跟執行上的一個失敗呢我想這個部分我們應該來探討一下"},{"start":130.009,"end":157.328,"text":"那接下來因為今天總統府沒有代表來那非常可惜也不應該因為感覺上這個總統府的螺絲都已經鬆動了那這個部分應該總統府秘書長要有一些政治責任的回應那最後是新型的這個滲透的樣態在產生我不知道整個國安局對這個部分有沒有一些掌握那能不能建立一些跨部門聯防機制及時的列管還有跟異常團體對金流"},{"start":159.83,"end":181.519,"text":"的一個走向能夠了解這個是我們守住國安底線的一個很重要的關鍵所以第一個部分也就是忠誠查核制度的相對失靈先前也有幾位委員問到了這個問題包括總統府的助理聖楚英那麼國安會顧問"},{"start":184.81,"end":205.479,"text":"吳尚宇那你們剛才講說他不在查核範圍那另外外交部政務幕僚何仁傑那他也沒有經過定期的國安審查這就是本席所講的一個動態查核的狀況那但是我們聽起來好像沒有一個單位能夠主動的做些什麼事那這就是本席所說的"},{"start":205.839,"end":220.204,"text":"似乎這樣一個動態的查核有一點失靈那這幾個單位其實都是非常具有在整個政治權力上來講是非常核心的這就是為什麼這些單位爆出共諜案我想社會各界都非常的震驚"},{"start":221.244,"end":245.484,"text":"所以這些高風險的政後卻沒有進入我們的忠誠安全查核的網絡然後呢在過程當中似乎也沒有一些警示的機制那目前查核的制度感覺好像形同巨文所以依照國家機密保護法第二條第九條的規定那政府對於機密業務人員應實施忠誠與安全之查核"},{"start":246.024,"end":266.617,"text":"那明定的 任用前要查核 再職要定期查核 還有離職前的這個終審那但是呢 從幾位在針對 先前也有委員問過的那調單位的查核 然後是不是適用於查核的身份等等 看來都沒有什麼"},{"start":267.594,"end":282.96,"text":"在過往沒有什麼一個責任那聽起來都是每一個單位都是別人的事情那這個部分本席這邊感到非常的疑惑所以因為這個缺乏落實跟責任歸屬的機制導致查核成為不查最安全"},{"start":283.9,"end":302.7,"text":"不查最安全的行政慣性所以現在面對非正式的編制的涉密人員如果沒有明確的法律義務那包括政務人員、政治幕僚、特聘顧問、約聘的技術人員那這似乎是這整件事情的一個共同漏洞"},{"start":303.681,"end":323.896,"text":"那這個部分是不是有必要來立刻研議修正國家機密保護法明定實質接觸的機密者不論其任用形式或編制的身份應該受到法律的這個查查不知道這個是不是可以請部長或局長這邊有一些回應或建議呢"},{"start":329.421,"end":348.563,"text":"這個委員的這部分就是要增加特殊查核的名單的這些問題那這部分行政院有規劃將行政局首屬各機關各全體政務人員及協助其辦理業務的秘書助理這些有接觸到涉密的"},{"start":349.464,"end":366.581,"text":"這些的聘僱人員主任秘書層級以上的辦公室辦理秘書機要業務的生命也聘僱人員納入辦理特查的對象這不是有增加齁那增加 那這個增加齁那個調查局這邊也統計齁那目前的話齁"},{"start":367.802,"end":379.253,"text":"如果說因為目前有特殊查有1328個特殊查如果說這個行政院我們院長的一個指示有增加了這部分會增加1008人那這樣的話"},{"start":383.797,"end":398.866,"text":"28以上再增加1008人這樣的話人數會增加2000多人那這部分是有這樣的一個指示目前有這樣子一個規劃就對了有有有 這個行政院有這樣的一個指示"},{"start":399.434,"end":416.652,"text":"好的那這個部分本席在上次聽到有委員也針對那個換工作的這個查核也跟你們提出一些問題那所以呢這個動態的查核也很重要的就是一個動態更新的能力那目前似乎都留在靜態錄質時的查核那可能剛才部長所講的"},{"start":419.835,"end":426.862,"text":"未來就算有這樣一個規劃那似乎也都是在入職時候的查核但是上次很重要一個問題就是說當有人換單位之後事後行為的追蹤或異常接觸的這個審核機制那會導致"},{"start":435.305,"end":458.024,"text":"在任用前查核之後呢任用進來之後就變成很放任然後在職也沒有追蹤的常態現象那目前查核的目前涉案的幾個人員是不是都有這樣一個共通性因為中間都沒有再被查核也沒有任何異常報告的程序那麼像何仁傑這個是最著名的他換了單位那也沒有查核那他第一次查核是因為他剛進入了這個國安會進行了查核"},{"start":461.087,"end":477.497,"text":"那這似乎在風險控管的一個基本原則上有一些衝突所以是不是我記得上一回你們也說這個人事單位要主動提出來那我想是不是可以請教一下人事總署的代表那你們如何來主動提出"},{"start":478.903,"end":493.623,"text":"這樣子的一個機制呢跟委員報告依照那個任用法以及相關授權法令的規定各機關的職務數是由他們去檢視業務所提報的所以它還關係到各機關嘛但是各機關的回應都說這個人事單位要主動提出來"},{"start":494.144,"end":515.126,"text":"所以本席這邊就很confused不知道你們在內部的一個這個查核的作業那究竟如果業務單位沒有提給你們那是不是有點堵直那你們沒有主動去查核是不是又不夠負責所以這是本席在先前針對這樣的問題聽到大家的一個回應那似乎看起來沒有一個單位能夠主動來做這件事本席不知道這樣子的認知對不對"},{"start":516.607,"end":533.884,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為那個相關法規裡面是寫國家安全或重大利益那我們請客機關的檢視的時候都有列舉一些好比說國安啊情治什麼什麼什麼的就是有請客機關就是大概依照什麼樣子的性質是屬於所以先前就有這樣了嘛對不對那這樣看起來是這幾個單位都有一點這個瀆職喔"},{"start":536.527,"end":551.587,"text":"跟委員報告一下各機關內部的盤點因為那個是各機關內部的行政處理的事務流程那到底是由那個程序上面是誰決定應該還是首長做最後的決定就是哪一些職務要特查這應該還是各機關自己要去做內部盤點"},{"start":552.828,"end":564.492,"text":"好的 那今天你們有出來做這樣子的說明那不過本席認為你們也應該要建立一個行為安全評估跟紀錄審核的一個制度你今天雖然做這樣的回應說那各機關的業務主管應該要提出可是發生的這個事情看起來應該各業務單位都沒有主動的提出所以當事情發生的時候他說你們這邊應該要提出來所以這樣感覺有點踢皮球本席聽了幾次都聽不到真正的權屬跟問責的這個單位"},{"start":582.139,"end":609.698,"text":"所以本期今天先做這樣一個建議所以你們是不是應該要將駐外人員或高階幕僚或涉密的單位的職員也納入一些定期的看你們用什麼方式的一個規劃去做審查他才會有一個持續性然後跟即時性就不會像這次發生了然後發現哇這麼久了結果一查查核欸都好幾年了欸那大部分的人都沒有經過定時的或更新的這樣一個查核我想這是問題很重要一個所在"},{"start":610.658,"end":616.003,"text":"所以人事總署是不是這個部分也應該建立查核失靈的一些責任歸屬的機制"},{"start":618.567,"end":641.287,"text":"跟委員報告我們會遵照那個院長的指示喔就是就那個揭密程度這個是查核範圍跟項目的部分以及查核的頻率那以及確實去督導各機關要怎麼去檢視他們的那個特查的植物數好的那這個部分是不是你們如果有比較具體的那個辦法出來那把相關的資料給本席做一個參考好不好是 有辦法會會嫌所以到時候應該是會公開"},{"start":643.203,"end":671.632,"text":"好的 謝謝本來今天我也想針對這個總統府還有這個國安會來做一些探討結果他們都沒有人出席而且我覺得已經也不是第一次所以我覺得這個問題還蠻嚴重的那我們沒有辦法在這邊探討問題那他們的部分我就先保留希望能夠哪一天他們真的能夠來跟我們面對面大家來討論一下這個問題不是只有問責而已而是問題出在哪裡是我們很想要處理跟探討的"},{"start":672.452,"end":698.724,"text":"好那最後這邊我提醒一下其實不只是這個中共對於我們的高階相關的人員掌握得非常透徹那近期的這個共諜案其實我們在點的部分已經都被滲透了但是呢據本席的了解目前這個中共結合黑幫也好公廟也好那麼地下金流網絡跟有一些地方社團的"},{"start":700.545,"end":717.418,"text":"現狀跟網狀的這個操作操控也非常的嚴重那看起來目前都已經有一些滲透點了所以根據國安局的報告不好意思 國安局好像是 代表您好那中共其實有吸收一些台灣的幫派分子那透過"},{"start":718.078,"end":735.905,"text":"借款,他透過很多種不同的形式借款、賭債、地下錢莊等金流然後也刺探一些軍事的機密那甚至呢,在戰時還會生一些五星旗來癱瘓交通什麼樣子的樣態都有那我不知道國安局目前在這個部分掌握的程度"},{"start":739.107,"end":757.457,"text":"像中共滲透的手法我們大概都有掌握剛所舉例的像比如說黑幫、宮廟或地下金流等等團體這個方式大概我們國安局都有掌握有收援目前你們對於這整個掌握有多少比例的信心?"},{"start":758.477,"end":768.411,"text":"我想我們情報掌握以後認為說這個涉及到國家安全的一些相關的證據以後我們會移給司法警察機關做後續的一個偵辦"},{"start":770.925,"end":794.083,"text":"所以你們過去都比較集中在軍政的這個情報還有敵情的狀態那本席今天提醒的是中共對我們基礎社會的基層結構那目前的滲透我們希望國安局在這個部分也能夠更積極一點的掌握然後所以還是問一下在本席所談的這個基層結構您目前掌握的比例你自己給自己打多少percentage"},{"start":795.062,"end":808.881,"text":"我想比例部分我們沒辦法去確確的一個說明不過像比方說村里長或者一些剛剛講公廟或者黑道幫派等等這個基層的這個層面的部分當然我們都會列為一個情收的一個要項"},{"start":810.229,"end":830.566,"text":"所以本席在這邊就做這個部分的提醒因為先前這幾個共諜案已經讓我們很驚嚇了基本上已經掌握到我國很重要的一個政治權利中心那當然在這個社會基礎基層裡面那如果再被這樣子很大面積的滲透我想我們國安就真的面臨很大的一個問題"},{"start":831.767,"end":845.364,"text":"好 所以最後也請警政署這邊能夠來配合那針對這些公廟 組織 幫派那能夠有相關的這個列管那有具體的事蹟好不好那我們共同為我們的國安來努力好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":605,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（10時10分）謝謝主席。我這邊先請法務部、調查局、國安局、外交部跟人事行政總處。"],["主席：麻煩法務部、調查局、國安局、外交部、人事行政總處。"],["林委員倩綺：府院同仁，大家好。今天我們就針對近期整個包括總統府、國安會，還有外交部等等報出來的共諜案，我們在這邊針對制度面還有未來的因應做個討論，所以本席今天的質詢針對國安漏洞，提出三個討論的議題，第一個是忠誠查核制度似乎失靈；第二個部分是總統府反滲透的破口，不過今天總統府也沒有人來，實在有點可惜；最後一個是中共現在對整個臺灣的系統性滲透，似乎已經到了包括黑幫、包括宮廟，所以針對這個部分本席要跟大家做個討論。","首先，我們剛才講的三個單位，總統府、國安會、外交部連環爆了共諜案，涉案的人員讓人家非常的驚訝，他們長期都接觸國家機密，但是卻完全沒有有效的動態查核，顯示我們整個國安制度有點名存實亡。雖然一些委員也針對這個部分做了質詢，但是大家目前針對過往這個部分的失靈似乎沒有太多交代跟回應，也感覺到很無力。尤其對於這些應該被查核的人員當中，政務、約聘跟特聘的人員，如同你們所講的，沒有相關查核的依據，這是不是顯示了制度設計跟執行上的失敗呢？我想這個部分，我們應該來探討一下。接下來，今天總統府沒有代表來，非常可惜也不應該，因為感覺上總統府的螺絲都已經鬆動了，針對這個部分，總統府秘書長應該要有一些政治責任的回應。最後是新型滲透的樣態在產生，我不知道整個國安局對於這個部分有沒有一些掌握？能不能建立一些跨部門聯防機制，即時列管，還有跟異常團體對金流的走向能夠了解，這是我們守住國安底線很重要的一個關鍵。","所以第一個部分，也就是忠誠查核制度相對的失靈。先前也有幾位委員問到了這個問題，包括總統府的助理盛礎纓、國安會顧問吳尚雨，你們剛才講他不在查核範圍，另外外交部政務幕僚何仁傑，他也沒有經過定期的國安審查，這就是本席所講的動態查核狀況，但是我們聽起來，好像沒有一個單位能夠主動地做些什麼事，這就是本席所說的，似乎這樣的動態查核有一點失靈。這幾個單位在整個政治權力上來講，其實是非常核心的，這就是為什麼這些單位爆出共諜案，社會各界都非常的震驚。這些高風險的症候，卻沒有進入我們的忠誠安全查核的網絡，然後在過程當中，似乎也沒有一些警示的機制，目前查核的制度感覺好像形同具文。依照國家機密保護法第二條、第九條的規定，政府對於機密業務人員應實施忠誠與安全之查核，明定任用前要查核，在職要定期查核，還有離職前的審核。但是先前也有委員問過調單位的查核，是不是適用於查核的身分等等，看來在過往都沒有什麼責任，聽起來每一個單位都是別人的事情，這個部分本席這邊感到非常的疑惑，因為缺乏落實跟責任歸屬的機制，導致查核成為「不查最安全」的行政慣性，所以現在面對非正式編制的涉密人員，如果沒有明確的法律義務，包括政務人員、政治幕僚、特聘顧問、約聘技術人員，似乎是這整件事情的共同漏洞，這個部分是不是有必要立刻研議修正國家機密保護法，明定實質接觸機密者，不論其任用形式或編制身分，都應該受到法律查察？部長或局長是不是有一些回應或建議呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：針對委員提及增加特查、特殊查核名單的問題，行政院有規劃將行政院及所屬各機關（構）全體政務人員及協助其辦理業務的秘書、助理等有接觸到涉密的聘僱人員、主任秘書層級以上的辦公室辦理秘書機要業務的涉密約聘僱人員，納入辦理特查的對象，這個是有增加，根據調查局的統計，目前有特殊查核的有1,328個，依照行政院院長指示需要增加的，這部分是增加1,008人，這樣的話……"],["林委員倩綺：1,328人再增加1,008人？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這樣的話，人數會增加到兩千多人，這部分是有這樣的指示。"],["林委員倩綺：目前有這樣的規劃就對了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有，有，行政院有這樣的一個指示。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，本席在上次也聽到有委員針對換工作時的查核跟你們提出一些問題，所以相關動態查核，很重要的就是動態更新的能力，目前似乎都留在靜態入職時的查核，即使像部長剛才講的，未來就算有這樣一個規劃，似乎也都是在入職時的查核，但是上次很重要的一個問題是，當有人換單位之後，因為沒有事後行為的追蹤或異常接觸的審核機制，導致任用進來之後，就變成很放任，然後在職時也沒有常態的追蹤制度，以目前涉案的幾個人員來看，是不是都有這樣的共通性？因為中間沒有再被查核，也沒有任何異常報告程序，像何仁傑這個最著名的例子，他換了單位後也沒有查核，第一次查核是他剛進入國安會時的查核，這似乎和風險控管的基本原則有一些衝突。我記得上一回你們說人事單位要主動提出來，請教人事總處的代表，你們要如何主動提出這樣的機制呢？"],["李處長花書：跟委員報告，依照任用法及相關授權法令的規定，各機關的職務數是由他們檢視業務所提報的，這是各機關……"],["林委員倩綺：所以它還關係到各機關，但是各機關的回應都說是人事單位要主動提出來，本席就覺得很confused，不知道你們內部的查核作業，如果業務單位沒有提給你們，是不是有點瀆職？又如果你們沒有主動查核，是不是又不夠負責？這是針對這樣的問題，本席在先前聽到大家的回應，看起來似乎沒有一個單位能夠主動來做這件事，本席這樣的認知不知道對不對？"],["李處長花書：跟委員報告，因為相關法規是寫國家安全或重大利益，而我們在請各機關檢視的時候，都有列舉一些國安、情治什麼什麼的內容，就是請各機關大概依照什麼樣的性質是屬於……"],["林委員倩綺：所以先前就有這樣，對不對？"],["李處長花書：對，對，但這是因為……"],["林委員倩綺：這樣看起來，這幾個單位都有點瀆職。"],["李處長花書：至於各機關內部的盤點，因為那是各機關內部行政處理的事務流程，在程序上，最後還是應該由首長做最後的決定，亦即哪一些職務要特查，應該還是各機關自己要去做內部盤點。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，雖然今天你們有出來做這樣的說明，不過本席認為你們還是應該建立一個行為安全評估跟紀錄審核制度，今天你雖然做這樣回應，認為各機關的業務主管應該要提出，可是看起來各業務單位都沒有主動提出來，所以在事情發生的時候，他們認為你們這邊應該提出來，感覺有點踢皮球的樣子，而本席聽了幾次，也聽不到真正的權屬和問責單位，因此本席今天先做這樣一個建議，就是駐外人員、高階幕僚或涉密單位的職員也應該納入定期審查，看你們要規劃什麼樣的審查方式，這樣才會有一個持續性跟及時性的查核，也就不會像這次發生這樣的事件，結果一查，查核都已經是好幾年前的事了，大部分的人都沒有經過定時或更新的查核，我想這是很重要的問題所在，所以人事總處在這個部分，是不是也應該建立查核失靈的一些責任歸屬機制？"],["李處長花書：跟委員報告，我們會遵照院長的指示，就揭密程度去訂定查核範圍、查核項目、查核頻率，以及確實督導各機關要如何檢視他們的特查職務數……"],["林委員倩綺：好，這個部分如果你們有比較具體的辦法出來，請把相關資料提供給本席參考，好不好？"],["李處長花書：是，這個辦法會會銜，到時候應該是會公開的。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝。本來今天本席也想針對總統府和國安會做一些探討，結果他們都沒有人出席，這也已經不是第一次了，我覺得問題還蠻嚴重的，但我們卻沒有辦法在這邊探討問題，那他們的部分我只好先保留，希望哪一天他們真的能夠來跟我們面對面討論這個問題，不是只有問責而已，而是問題出在哪裡，是我們很想處理跟探討的。","最後，我要提醒一點，其實中共不只對我們的高階相關人員掌握非常透徹，近期的共諜案，其實我們在點的部分已經都被滲透了，據本席了解，目前中共結合黑幫、宮廟、地下金流、網絡與地方社團等的線狀跟網狀操控也非常嚴重，看起來目前都已經有一些滲透點。根據國安局的報告，中共其實有透過很多不同形式，譬如借款、賭債、地下錢莊等金流來吸收臺灣的一些幫派分子，然後要他們刺探一些軍事機密，甚至在戰時製造混亂，什麼樣態都有，不知道國安局在這個部分目前掌握的程度為何？是不是可以做個回應？"],["黃副局長明昭：中共滲透的手法，我們大概都有掌握，剛剛委員所舉例的，比如黑幫、宮廟或地下金流等團體的方式，大概我們國安局都有掌握、有蒐源，然後有確切的……"],["林委員倩綺：對於目前你們的掌握，你覺得有多少比率的信心？"],["黃副局長明昭：我們情報掌握以後，認為涉及到國家安全的一些相關證據則會移給司法警察機關做後續偵辦。"],["林委員倩綺：你們過去都比較集中在軍政情報，還有敵情狀態，本席今天要提醒的是中共對於我們社會基層結構的滲透，希望國安局在這個部分的掌握也能夠更積極一點，所以請教一下，在本席所談及的基層結構部分，目前掌握的比率，你給自己打多少percentage？"],["黃副局長明昭：比率部分，我們沒辦法確切的說明，不過比方像村里長或者剛剛講到的宮廟或黑道幫派等等，在基層的這個層面，當然我們都會列為情蒐的要項。"],["林委員倩綺：本席在這邊就是要做這部分的提醒，因為先前幾個共諜案已經讓我們很驚嚇了，基本上已經掌握到我國很重要的政治權力中心，當然在社會基層層面，如果再被這樣很大面積的滲透，我想我們國安就真的面臨一個很大的問題。最後也請警政署配合，針對這些宮廟、組織、幫派，能夠有相關的列管、有具體的事蹟，好不好？我們共同為我們的國安努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","下一位請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":353,"meetingDate":["2025-05-05"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法\n院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘\n部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜\n滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00007"}}},{"id":"160945","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160945","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38e90b73e994f9b7a8ea4a163b9c8fed7d3e2c5f8a9bba8e0c8bc14232be7724ac136d7d602a4a755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"09:57:35 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謝謝主席我先請國安局的副局長麻煩國安局副局長副局長好請問一下現在在國安局上班的人有沒有人不用經過特殊查核"},{"start":32.467,"end":40.383,"text":"呃 基本上我們任用的人員都是要經過特殊的一個查核全部嗎是只要走進國安局上班的人對"},{"start":42.216,"end":61.652,"text":"走進國安局上班那個門裡面的人每個人都要經過查核是沒有任何一個例外對 當然公有是沒有做一個查核但是正式的人員包括我們的志願役的人員都一定要做過查核好 謝謝 那請回好 我們現在請這個調查局去講"},{"start":68.157,"end":76.812,"text":"委員好局長我們這個特殊查核的相關辦法裡頭有對象的一覽表是那這一覽表是調查局提的嗎"},{"start":77.942,"end":99.002,"text":"不是 這個特查辦法是人事行政總署主管的然後就是由各機關提出來 他們可能揭秘等等的跟國安有關的 重大利益有關的 由機關提出來他訂出一個副表出來以後各個機關提 然後就成為那個副表"},{"start":100.123,"end":114.7,"text":"那如果機關沒有提了就不會進到裡頭嘛對不對對因為我們不知道機關哪些人是有揭密的條件OK那你今天的報告裡頭提到說啊這個原來的這個人數只有1328位嘛"},{"start":118.044,"end":134.581,"text":"那可是就不包括重大政策規劃執行政務人員協助機關處理的秘書機要人員 約聘僱人員立法院的職員跟立法院的助理就是說不包括這些所以你們現在有在研議要把這一些納進來"},{"start":136.363,"end":160.611,"text":"那左院長只是先納入就是說跟政務有關的這些人然後在相關約聘僱的這個辦法裡頭就已經呈現他自願辦理嘛對不對那如果不願意簽了就不要來當這個職務對 可能就不要用那這個會擴及到多少人目前的人數出估是多少"},{"start":163.547,"end":186.593,"text":"您的報告是寫1108對吧跟委員報告目前大概有行政院長有開過會現在大概就是階段性第一階段就是行政院所屬機關本來政務人員都排除嘛但現在他現在要求把政務人員全部通通都要納入然後再來就是主任秘書以上的也全部都要包含他的機要他的秘書等等的都要"},{"start":187.433,"end":207.237,"text":"但是有些因為他不是公務員 因為他母法是公務人員任用法那有些他不是公務人員 他是約聘僱人員的 就用契約去規範他你要簽的這個契約要同意接受特殊查核 那才會任用那這一些人的這個定義是各個單位自己提是不是"},{"start":209.219,"end":228.38,"text":"譬如說外交部長的辦公室主任 外交部部長室裡頭有約聘僱人員這個約聘僱人員接下來就很有可能他如果不簽這個同意書 志願查的同意書的話那他就不能來這裡任職"},{"start":231.27,"end":259.662,"text":"不是說一定不能 就是說主管就要考慮說既然這個人不願意簽 你還要不要用他可以調整去其他不揭密的這個工作那這樣會不會草木皆兵就是說盡量縮小到必要的範圍裡面也提到立法院的立委的國會助理嘛那現在如果有個別的立法委員要求"},{"start":260.796,"end":279.926,"text":"我的國會助理全部納入特殊查核你們會收嗎這個可能就要立法院要先訂定相關的辦法我們依照立法院的一些辦法來不然我立法委員自願啊自願的話我們現在目前沒有法源依據"},{"start":281.618,"end":292.907,"text":"那為什麼行政單位就有依據那個行政院以下的行政院以下的啊立法院不虧行政院以下的就是說外交部聘的約聘僱人員嘛"},{"start":293.783,"end":320.115,"text":"那這個部長認為這個有必要 那我就納入 對不對那我立法委員 我認為我的國會助理有必要我要納入 這樣不行目前沒有法源的依據五院除了行政院以外 其他四院都要四院自己有自己的這個特查的一些相關的辦法意思就是說 在執行上才會有依據意思就是說 如果立法院不同意"},{"start":321.36,"end":347.258,"text":"立法院,不要講不同意,就立法院沒有送出一個說我們立法院哪些人應該查那個別在裡頭的人也沒辦法就對了我們就沒有執行議事今天假設這個立法院的院長他說我有聘了這個立院的顧問嘛我聘了立院顧問,那我聘了立院顧問是有薪水的那這兩位我希望能夠納入特殊查核,這樣也不行"},{"start":356.324,"end":365.249,"text":"不是公務人員任用法裡面所規範的對象所以還是要回到個別的機關那你們收件是以機關為單位機關會發文來給我們"},{"start":373.877,"end":398.452,"text":"機關會發文來給我們好那我舉個例子喔譬如說台中市政府交通局台中市政府交通局的局長室的約聘僱人員我台中市政府交通局發一個說這個幫我列入特殊查核裡面收不收包委員你講的這個又是另外一個地方政府也不在這個不在這個1328的列標裡面嗎"},{"start":401.601,"end":425.646,"text":"地方政府也不在正面表列的職務裡面那也不能加?加可以加,人總如果把它加進來的話就可以那我現在就說如果這個交通局發一個通知人總說把我這個局長的約聘僱的秘書納入那這個機制要怎麼進行?應該是由台中市政府來做發動"},{"start":427.266,"end":453.652,"text":"台中市政府來發動他告知人總說他這些單位的什麼職務他是有接觸機密的應該要做特殊查核把他作為公告那會不會有一種情形是這些人都沒有主動提這些機關這些職務人都沒有主動提調查局認為這些人應該納入或者是國家哪一個單位認為這些漏掉了誰可以發動"},{"start":456.427,"end":466.481,"text":"人事行政總署可以發動人事行政總署對國家安全他有特殊的他可以來召集他不會主動召集他不會主動召集"},{"start":468.922,"end":472.885,"text":"假設現在有一個職務我們發現原來那個職務會牽扯到以前大家都沒想過原來那個職務會影響到那總會是有一個單位來發動說這幾個位置應該要把他納入那發動的人是誰發動的人總不能是行政院院長吧現在看起來是行政院院長覺得這些人應該要納入"},{"start":494.78,"end":520.879,"text":"現在規定沒有納入所以現在報告是說卓院長發現這些人沒有納入所以就請你們去研議一下哪些人要納入總不能什麼事情都是這個行政院院長來發動現在是院長是指示那個政委在統籌這件事情所以政委有召集過幾次會議那像我們的比如說我再請問一下那個國安局的這個副市長"},{"start":522.13,"end":532.243,"text":"就你一邊走一邊問啊就是說國安局如果發現有一些職務啊譬如說你們在做相關的這個分析的時候發現某一些職務確實也應該納入你們會尋什麼樣的途徑啊"},{"start":537.55,"end":552.404,"text":"希望人總各單位把這幾個職位給納入特殊查核如果是需要特殊查核因為涉及到國家的機密部分我們都很樂見再有一個法規的規範來實施如果有發現這個問題我們會循我們的體系國安體系來做一個反應"},{"start":561.466,"end":581.84,"text":"我的意思是說 比如說全國的紅綠燈 全國的號誌因為我以前當局長的時候 調查局台中的來找我們說你們那個紅綠燈的安全 如果有一天入侵了你們紅綠燈的系統 台中市的號誌大亂"},{"start":584.38,"end":603.588,"text":"恐怕很危險所以他希望來檢核我們的這個紅綠燈的這個控制的相關的安全我們的行控中心那就是說如果這件事情被國安局也認為說這件事情確實很嚴重如果有一天全台灣的紅綠燈在瞬間全部被侵入了"},{"start":604.088,"end":630.524,"text":"全部都不能運作了 全部都怎樣了如果啦 如果被國安局認定說這件事情在國家安全上也有一定層級的影響那會不會有相關的建議那我說這個建議的這個發動會是在你們這個單位還是台灣有哪一個單位可以說我們發現這幾個位置這幾個職務其實是蠻重要的它有可能的影響到接下來的國家安全它可能影響到它可能會被這一個"},{"start":632.025,"end":656.571,"text":"被侵入 這些相關的人員可能會被吸收之類的事情在國安局的立場到底哪一個單位可以去提議說這個應該要納入我們如果有發現這個情資進來的時候我們詢那個 比方說我們行政院的那個訴發部因為這個剛剛涉及到一個治安的問題 害侵治安的問題"},{"start":657.191,"end":672.213,"text":"所以統籌由行政院的訴發部來做一個統籌的處理就是說你們把資訊給訴發部那訴發部再去做研議對 後續的一個研議去推動OK 我是希望說接下來因為"},{"start":673.234,"end":688.924,"text":"因為今天教導局的報告裡頭寫了蠻多新的職位新的職位,那這些利害關係他就發現說,原來我也有,原來我也會被要求要自願這樣子所以第一個我擔心草木皆兵"},{"start":689.964,"end":718.644,"text":"就是說無限上綱到一定程度嘛那第二個就是說這一個如果沒有被你納入的而這個國家認為這些人應該也被納入這樣的一個機制啊總不能老是透過行政院長發現一個個案然後行政院長說這碼要納入這碼要納入這看起來這個制度上是不太對啦所以這個題目是不是看是不是請這個國安局或者是調查局這一邊或人總啊"},{"start":719.705,"end":730.653,"text":"大家商討一下說這種主動被動的機制到底是什麼然後才能夠接下來弄到制度比較完善好 謝謝你們 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":515,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時57分）謝謝主席，我先請國安局副局長。"],["主席：麻煩國安局副局長。"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。"],["王委員義川：副局長好。請問一下，現在在國安局上班的人，有沒有人不用經過特殊查核？"],["黃副局長明昭：基本上我們任用的人員都要經過特殊的查核。"],["王委員義川：全部嗎？"],["黃副局長明昭：是。"],["王委員義川：只要是走進國安局上班的人？"],["黃副局長明昭：對。"],["王委員義川：走進國安局上班、那個門裡面的人，每個人都要經過查核？"],["黃副局長明昭：是。"],["王委員義川：沒有任何一個例外？"],["黃副局長明昭：對，當然工友沒有做查核，但正式人員，包括我們的志願役人員都一定要做過查核。"],["王委員義川：好，謝謝，那請回。","我們現在請調查局局長。"],["陳局長白立：委員好。"],["王委員義川：局長，我們這個特殊查核的相關辦法裡頭，有對象的一覽表嘛！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：這個一覽表是調查局提的嗎？"],["陳局長白立：不是，這個特查辦法是人事行政總處主管的，是由各機關提出他們可能接密等等，跟國安有關、重大利益有關的，由機關提出來，人總訂一個附表出來之後……"],["王委員義川：各個機關提，然後就成為那個附表？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：如果機關沒有提，就不會進到裡頭，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：對，因為我們不知道機關哪些人有接密的條件。"],["王委員義川：OK，你今天的報告裡頭提到，原來人數只有1,328位。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：好，可是不包括重大政策規劃執行之政務人員、協助機關處理的秘書、機要人員、約聘僱人員、立法院的職員跟立法院的助理，不包括這些。"],["陳局長白立：目前都沒有。"],["王委員義川：所以你們現在有在研議要把這一些納進來。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：卓院長指示先納入，就是跟政務有關的這些人，然後在相關約聘僱的辦法裡頭，就已經呈現他自願辦理，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：對。"],["王委員義川：如果不願意簽的就不要來當這個職務……"],["陳局長白立：對，可能就不要用。"],["王委員義川：是這個意思，那會擴及到多少人？"],["陳局長白立：目前的人數……"],["王委員義川：你們的報告是寫1,008，對嗎？"],["陳局長白立：跟委員報告，行政院院長有開過會，現在大概就是階段性，第一階段是行政院所屬機關，本來政務人員都排除，但現在要求把政務人員全部都納入。再來就是主任秘書以上也全部都要，包含他的機要、秘書等等的都要。但因為母法是公務人員任用法，有些人他不是公務人員，是約聘僱人員的就用契約去規範他，你要簽了這個契約、要同意接受特殊查核，才會任用。"],["王委員義川：這一些人的定義是各個單位自己提，是不是？"],["陳局長白立：是，還是要各單位。"],["王委員義川：譬如外交部部長的辦公室主任，外交部部長室裡頭有約聘僱人員，這個約聘僱人員接下來就很有可能是……他如果不簽這一個自願查同意書的話，那他就不能來這裡任職？"],["陳局長白立：不是說一定不能，主管就要考慮，既然這個人不願意簽，你還要不要用他？可以調整去其他不接密的工作。"],["王委員義川：這樣會不會草木皆兵？"],["陳局長白立：就是儘量縮小到必要的範圍。"],["王委員義川：因為報告裡面也提到立法院立委的國會助理。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：現在如果有個別立法委員要求：我的國會助理全部納入特殊查核。你們會收嗎？"],["陳局長白立：這個可能就要立法院先訂定相關的辦法，我們依照立法院的一些辦法來執行。"],["王委員義川：不是，立法委員自願啊！"],["陳局長白立：自願的話，我們目前沒有法源依據。"],["王委員義川：那為什麼行政單位就有依據？"],["陳局長白立：那個是行政院以下的，但立法院不歸行政院管。"],["王委員義川：就是外交部聘的約聘僱人員，部長認為這個有必要，那我就納入，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：那立法委員，我認為我的國會助理有必要，我要納入，這樣不行？"],["陳局長白立：目前沒有法源的依據。五院除了行政院以外，其他四院有自己特查的一些相關辦法，在執行上才會有依據。"],["王委員義川：意思就是，如果立法院不同意，不要講不同意，就是立法院沒有送出一個說我們立法院願意……"],["陳局長白立：哪些應該要……"],["王委員義川：哪些人應該查……"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["王委員義川：個別在裡頭的人也沒辦法就對了？"],["陳局長白立：對，我們就沒有執行依據。"],["王委員義川：今天假設立法院院長說，我聘了立院的顧問，聘的立法院顧問是有薪水的，這兩位我希望能夠納入特殊查核，這樣也不行？"],["陳局長白立：他們不是公務人員任用法裡面規範的對象。"],["王委員義川：所以還是要回到個別機關，他們如果……你們收件是以機關為單位？"],["陳局長白立：對，機關會發文給我們。"],["王委員義川：好，那我舉一個例子，假如是這樣，臺中市政府交通局局長室的約聘僱人員，臺中市政府交通局發一個文說這個幫我列入特殊查核，你們收不收？"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，你講的這個又是另外一個，地方政府也不在正面表列的職務裡面。"],["王委員義川：那也不能加？"],["陳局長白立：可以加，人總如果把它加進來的話就可以。"],["王委員義川：對，我現在就是說，如果交通局發一個文通知人總，把局長的約聘僱秘書納入，這個機制要怎麼進行？"],["陳局長白立：應該是由臺中市政府發動，告知人總他們這些單位的什麼職務有接觸機密，應該要做特殊查核，把它公告。"],["王委員義川：好。會不會有一種情形是這些人都沒有主動提，這些機關、這些職務人員都沒有主動提，調查局認為這些人應該納入，或者是國家的哪一個單位認為這些漏掉了，誰可以發動？"],["陳局長白立：人事行政總處可以發動。"],["王委員義川：人事行政總處對國家安全有特殊的……"],["陳局長白立：它可以來召集。"],["王委員義川：它不會主動召集。"],["陳局長白立：它可以來召集。"],["王委員義川：它不會主動召集啦！我是說假設現在有一個職務，我們發現原來那個職務會牽扯到以前大家都沒想過的，原來那個職務會影響到。"],["陳局長白立：有可能。"],["王委員義川：總會有一個單位來發動，覺得糟了！這幾個位置應該要把它納入，那麼那個發動的人是誰？發動的人總不能是行政院院長吧？現在看起來是行政院院長，覺得這些人應該要納入，因為現在的規定沒有納入，現在報告是提到卓院長發現這些人沒有納入，所以就請你們去研議一下哪些人要納入，總不能什麼事情都是行政院院長來發動嘛！"],["陳局長白立：現在院長是指示政委統籌這件事情，所以政委有召集過幾次會議。"],["王委員義川：我再請問一下國安局副局長，你一邊走，我一邊問。國安局如果發現有一些職務，譬如你們在做相關分析的時候，發現某一些職務確實也應該納入，你們會循什麼樣的途徑，希望人總等各單位把這幾個職位給納入特殊查核？"],["黃副局長明昭：如果需要特殊查核，因為涉及國家機密的部分，我們都很樂見再有一個法規的規範來實施，如果有發現這個問題，我們會循國安體系反映。"],["王委員義川：我的意思是，譬如全國的紅綠燈、號誌，因為我以前當局長的時候，臺中調查局來找我們，他們提到紅綠燈的安全，如果有一天入侵了我們紅綠燈的系統，臺中市的號誌大亂，恐怕很危險，所以它希望檢核我們紅綠燈控制相關安全的行控中心，也就是如果國安局也認為這件事情確實很嚴重，如果有一天，全臺灣的紅綠燈在瞬間全部被侵入了、全部都不能運作了、全部都怎樣了，如果被國安局認定這件事情在國家安全上也有一定層級的影響，會不會有相關的建議？我是說這個建議的發動會是在你們這個單位，還是臺灣有哪一個單位可以說他們發現這幾個位置、這幾個職務其實滿重要的，它有可能影響到國家安全、它可能會被侵入，這些相關的人員可能會被吸收，諸如此類的事情，站在國安局的立場，到底哪一個單位可以去提議這些應該要納入？"],["黃副局長明昭：我們如果有發現情資進來的時候，比方行政院的數發部，因為這個涉及到資安的問題、駭侵資安的問題，所以是由行政院的數發部統籌處理。"],["王委員義川：就是你們把資訊給數發部，數發部再去研議？"],["黃副局長明昭：對，後續的研議及推動。"],["王委員義川：OK，我是希望接下來，因為今天調查局的報告裡頭寫了滿多新的職位，這些利害關係人會發現原來他也有，原來他也會被要求要自願，所以第一個，我擔心草木皆兵，無限上綱到一定程度：第二個，如果沒有被你納入的，而國家認為這些人也應該被納入，這樣的一個機制，總不能老是透過行政院長發現一個個案，然後行政院長說這個要納入、那個也要納入，看起來這個制度上是不太對啦！所以這個題目看是不是請國安局、調查局或者是人總，大家商討一下這種主動、被動的機制到底是什麼，接下來才能把制度弄到制度比較完善。好，謝謝你們。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位我們請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":353,"meetingDate":["2025-05-05"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法\n院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘\n部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜\n滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00007"}}},{"id":"160944","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160944","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38e90b73e994f9b7ef4b94772cb4be127d3e2c5f8a9bba8e6af5cb2c6aef9296097c41cf62873e4d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"09:32:51 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部長兩位早安我想我今天問的東西我已經公開了講好幾天了所以這絕對不會是突襲兩位我想日前在調查局還有宜蘭地檢署在搜索宜蘭縣黨部的時候他發生一個狀況就是他把"},{"start":39.335,"end":62.114,"text":"非本案應該扣押的東西帶回了我想部長知道這件事嗎 局長知道這件事嗎都知道嘛 對不對好 那我來跟各位報告第一個宜蘭地檢署在我當天晚上啊 跟兩位報告 我當天晚上電話接不完啦因為他們要去要回這些資料因為隔天已經是最後一天了 必須要趕快去領表了但是"},{"start":63.976,"end":80.952,"text":"當時中選會一開始是跟領銜人他們說如果沒有公文債而且領銜人的身份證還有他的委託書當時也都在限調站沒有就不能夠領所以當時他們熱鍋上螞蟻一直在不知道該怎麼處理這件事情"},{"start":82.748,"end":111.323,"text":"我請他們依照正常的程序趕快跟地檢署說結果地檢署第一份新聞稿發說沒有扣這個東西好然後第二份新聞稿就是我們在一直跟他講他說沒有結果後來我們還拜託記者去跟他說然後這時候才說有然後有了以後呢他發明了一個我從來沒有看過的東西啦我先想請教部長啊部長請問一下我國齁那個扣押物品的扣押有拿幾種部長知道嗎"},{"start":114.087,"end":133.156,"text":"好 沒關係 部長 請看這個PowerPoint就除了一般我們對於搜索票上面已經載明應該扣押哪些東西之外我們還有附帶扣押 另案扣押 還有非附屬於搜索的扣押好 那我想請教部長 回到上一頁我想請教部長宜蘭地檢署新聞稿說"},{"start":135.798,"end":162.479,"text":"發現 經過向調查官反映的時候發現與本案相關查扣資料並同帶回調查站請問部長 並同帶回是屬於哪一種扣押這就是扣押嗎 可謂證據獲得沒收拾單了是就可以的不是 他屬於哪一種扣押 並同帶回是扣押嗎這個帶回是扣押 這個還沒有扣押嗎這個搜索到的東西不一定 這個還沒有有在搜索扣押的清冊裡面嘛"},{"start":163.664,"end":185.231,"text":"這個要請調查局他們來回答請調查局回答包委員你指的這件文件當時是有在搜索扣押的清冊裡面而且這個扣押的現場是有檢察官帶隊的這不是重點憑什麼去查扣跟本案無關的東西甚至他公文上面一望即知這跟一階連署有什麼關"},{"start":186.711,"end":212.723,"text":"請問一下局長我們可以去查扣非收索票上面所載跟本案無關顯然是另案而且跟犯罪無關的東西我們可以把它扣回去嗎請問一下什麼叫做並同待回這是屬於刑訴訟法的哪一個條文我想委員可能對這件公文的內涵不是很清楚因為偵查不公開的問題所以我只能很隆重的告訴你這件公文出現在那個現場就是一個問號"},{"start":214.484,"end":237.915,"text":"對 所以當時檢察官跟調查官要扣押 局長這份公文出現在現場問號是什麼 你跟我講清楚法律有沒有規定不可以有這個東西出現在現場這件公文就不是搜索 當時這個搜索現場的授文人 授文者就不是這個搜索現場的所以檢察官覺得這個應該要釐清 他把它扣押回來這太離譜了吧 局長"},{"start":240.416,"end":264.071,"text":"有什麼規定說這一份公文一份公文合法的公文我不能夠放在哪一個地點我國法律有這樣規定嗎所以檢察官他需要釐清所以檢察官他需要釐清啊局長你講這個太外行了喔你不要把我當外行人看我一直在這邊跟各位報告如果我今天外行人你來跟我講這個就算了我聽不懂"},{"start":265,"end":292.112,"text":"那我今天在 好 那如果照你這樣講那限調站裡面有非常多也不是限調站的東西 你們為什麼不全部查扣回家然後第二個我想請問一下什麼叫做併同待回需不需要立法院幫各位修法把併同待回四個字修進刑事訴訟法裡面沒有 我想他那個併同待回其實他這件事有在扣押清澈裡面的啦整個程序是合法的 我跟委員報告這一點你放心所以今天"},{"start":293.703,"end":310.884,"text":"今天不能扣押的東西我愛扣就扣只要在扣押物品清單裡面就可以嗎這個局長你的意思是這樣對不對這個檢察官他在現場認定啊檢察官他在現場你現在推給檢察官就對了不是啊這個好那檢察官他有帶隊的法務部長請問一下檢察官帶隊就可以隨便愛扣就扣嗎部長"},{"start":312.426,"end":335.083,"text":"我不是不懂,麻煩部長說實話,麻煩局長說實話現場的話,那個搜索的,如果檢察當場認為有關聯性的當然我們就可以扣押,就可以先待會兒釐清嘛但是這個後來沒有查過,這個新聞稿也發放給律師來簽收了嘛所以這個並沒有查扣嘛"},{"start":335.723,"end":354.63,"text":"而且這個是在那個搜索的現場這個是好像那個裡面的你真的確定部長已經多少次我們在這裡的質詢後來回去法官檢察官看到覺得很可笑你今天刑事訴訟法我剛已經給部長我剛已經給你看了我國刑事訴訟法的查扣的方式有哪幾種嘛那後來這個認為說這個就經過一個解釋我們認為說這個檢察認為說沒有查過的必要那就發凡了嘛"},{"start":363.633,"end":386.323,"text":"第一個我先跟各位說明我認為把這個東西扣走這個就屬於一個不合法的扣押這第一個第二個即使你今天是一個合法的扣押那為什麼宜蘭地檢署第一份新聞稿說沒有這個事情請問這是怎麼回事為什麼第一份新聞稿跟第二份新聞稿的內容不一樣"},{"start":387.954,"end":412.319,"text":"這個釐清了嘛 這個釐清了所以才發一個新聞 說調查官將該子公文交律師來領回我不知道我國現在的制度可以荒謬的解釋成這樣我愛怎麼解釋就怎麼解釋了這個沒有什麼說愛怎麼解釋 部長 部長我尊重你是前輩但是法律我們念的是同一套如果照這樣子的話 那以後搜索我現場我愛扣什麼就扣什麼我就說我要回家看"},{"start":413.908,"end":438.581,"text":"是可以這樣嗎然後我再跟各位報告我國刑事訴訟法沒有併同待回這四個字你跟我講併同待回是屬於扣押的哪一種請你告訴我這個是放在整個一個文件裡面的嗎是放在整個文件裡面的不能這樣講啊 放在文件裡面這個怎麼會是這樣講呢部長我聽不懂欸"},{"start":440.256,"end":465.228,"text":"扣押的意思就是跟本案有關的犯罪物證我們才能扣押嘛所以我即使去一個地點搜索如果我今天去總統府搜索我要搜第幾局的東西然後我可以把總統辦公室的東西一起扣走嗎這我絕對反對到底的嘛那一樣的邏輯是這樣啊或者是我去總統府哪一個單位搜索我可以把他上面總統寫給他的東西我一起扣走嗎"},{"start":466.568,"end":478.686,"text":"對不對哪一個同仁採購涉嫌違法我就把總統給他的另外一個公文一起帶走嗎可為證據獲得沒收之物當然就是可以扣押嘛那這個檢討在當場認為這個有關聯性的東西"},{"start":482.12,"end":500.607,"text":"這個是可以當觀念性的一個證物那後來整個一個調查後釐清了沒有扣押的證文認為可以釐清 那我們就報告部長 報告部長如果你要這樣子解釋刑事訴訟法那我們國內刑事訴訟法在強制處分那一章可能要完全大修了就檢察官可以要怎麼樣 要扣什麼就扣什麼"},{"start":501.107,"end":520.828,"text":"尤其是那一份公文上面清清楚楚寫的是什麼我跟你講啦你今天當事人要求發還你第一份新聞稿跟第二份新聞稿講的內容就不一樣不要當大家傻子看不懂上面寫什麼我第一份新聞稿看到檢方這樣發我還想說不可能檢方不會騙人啊我還跟他們說他們是不是弄錯了"},{"start":522.268,"end":543.545,"text":"結果他們還拜託記者去跟檢察官講之後才會有第二份公文出來我沒有辦法理解什麼叫做併同待回啦所以我現在能想到是不是我們還要幫兩個單位去修法否則我不知道怎麼去解釋併同待回這件事最後還好意思寫說嚴守法定程序這我更覺得要是我今天出了這個包我就出來道個歉"},{"start":544.626,"end":560.339,"text":"那另外我也想跟部長講一下跟局長講一下如果說今天你查扣了已經放進扣押物品清單了然後你今天把證物袋打開你有沒有進行正常的啟封程序有沒有"},{"start":561.414,"end":584.143,"text":"如果沒有的話就便宜措施打開就發還嗎所以這個都請各位去了解你今天在辦的一個案子如果已經高度爭議了那是不是程序上面要更嚴謹我在這邊也跟各位報告一件事我們每個人都會出包我們自己當檢察官的時候有時候程序不小心也會錯但是錯的時候你就出來道個歉說這邊不小心扣到我趕快發還"},{"start":585.933,"end":611.904,"text":"我覺得這樣子大家國人都可以接受每個人都一定會有不小心弄錯的時候但是如果不小心弄錯了又硬拗自己沒有錯硬拗這個屬於法定程序我跟你講如果我今天在當檢察官我去你家搜索愛扣什麼就扣什麼我去搜兒子的東西我把他爸媽的存摺全部一起扣回家慢慢看把他爸媽手機一起扣回家你看有沒有這個狀況另外我再跟部長和局長報告另外一件事情但這個東西有很多人在抱怨"},{"start":612.624,"end":632.041,"text":"說當天去現場的時候有一些人他們的手機他根本跟本案無關他只是義工而已手機就被到場的調查官要求拿出來給調查官看然後在那邊看了一個小時之後把他還給當事人那我想請問一下這個的法律依據是什麼他不是搜索扣押物喔"},{"start":634.946,"end":649.471,"text":"那今天如果現場的工友在那邊打掃是不是也叫工友把手機拿來我看一下裡面寫寫了什麼然後看完之後我看 看得很高興看完之後還給他我請問一下這個法律依據在哪裡好吧 兩位答不出來我跟委員報告齁 這個訴訟法112112條齁"},{"start":663.237,"end":678.755,"text":"因為這個法官有核定的一個搜索票的內容來指引搜索那122條對第三人第三人身體物件電子記錄其他處所有相應的可信為被告犯罪嫌因扣押置物存在違憲的搜索資所以這個那你問這些人"},{"start":681.377,"end":702.084,"text":"這個是現場嗎你現場好那今天這樣講就我剛剛講的那個例子我今天如果總統府某一個人涉貪譬如說總統府有共諜案我去那裡辦共諜案我請總統手機交出來給我看因為我懷疑你是犯罪嫌疑人內亂外犯罪我一樣可以辦你我可以這樣嗎那這樣子的話我國司法不就無限制了這個還有133那個那個"},{"start":706.263,"end":723.824,"text":"那個一三一條進行搜索的情況也可以可以直接進行搜索嘛凡是可為證據或得莫受當然都得依法扣押之嘛這整次進行搜索整次後來是算是在懲罰法院的問題而已嘛今天出來抱怨那些都是現場的義工他可能就在那邊打掃然後"},{"start":724.927,"end":748.022,"text":"調查局的人到現場就叫他們把手機交出來而且非常多人交出來之後手機就在那邊讓他們看了一個小時看完之後也沒有進行任何的程序沒有扣押沒有把這些人簽為被告手機就還他那今天人家不滿的是這個如果兩位長官你們覺得這樣行為是對的那請 沒關係今天全程錄影公開然後我再講另外一個雖然最高檢說"},{"start":756.707,"end":771.368,"text":"最高檢說今天我點出來那些東西他說傷害司法違行但我跟各位兩位報告你們再這樣操作下去才是傷害司法違行我今天我講的每一個東西都是告訴國人你在行政訴訟法上面你有什麼權益你在接受"},{"start":773.257,"end":799.717,"text":"執行機關 司法機關調查搜索的時候你可以主張什麼這個是我國刑事訴訟法我們保障每個人民的基本權利耶民進黨不是最愛講基本人權嗎我國憲法的基本人權明明白白規範在那裡耶我有非常多的自由我有免於恐懼的自由就我今天在面對調查官的時候我跟本案完全無關我是義工我到現場掃地的我到現場整理花圃的"},{"start":801.007,"end":827.896,"text":"然後在那邊叫我把手機交出來給他看然後他也沒有把我簽為被告我也不是犯罪嫌疑人東西也沒有把我扣走你要是把我查扣回去看我還無話可說現場看一看一個小時後發環這非常多地方人都遇到這種事情如果兩位認為這樣是對的好沒關係 那就這樣我在這邊只是跟各位報告我在當司法人員的一天我總是要求每一個人要嚴守程序正義"},{"start":829.176,"end":856.499,"text":"因為陳俊正是死的改天回過頭來當事人來檢舉我的時候我無話可說啊因為那不涉及主觀判斷嘛如果對於宜蘭的這個做法這樣齁我真的覺得我不知道兩位回去你們面對你們所帶領的那些同仁不知道是怎麼樣我從來不覺得說你可以現場隨便你要查過什麼就查過什麼我要人家交出手機就交出手機"},{"start":858.726,"end":861.274,"text":"士林北投吳思瑤罷免的那個領銜的賴怡任"},{"start":863.083,"end":889.291,"text":"他的女朋友的手機放在家裡然後他調查官還叫賴以任去問他女朋友的手機號碼密碼幾號叫他問到要打開來看其實這個東西在法律上面都有問題除非你認為他女朋友跟他是共同證犯也是犯罪嫌疑人之一那我沒有話說但你今天你不能這樣做啊我今天在這邊希望替國人要求的就是一個程序正義國人在接受公權力的執行的時候"},{"start":890.231,"end":909.242,"text":"他有法律上合法的權利我絕對支持國家偵辦犯罪就像這次偽造文書不管別人怎麼講不管人家說我什麼我就說偽造文書犯罪就是犯罪該辦就是該辦但是要注意一下你的比例原則對不對你的平等性原則對不對你辦男辦女邏輯完全不一樣我就沒有辦法理解"},{"start":911.993,"end":918.636,"text":"局長我請問一下最近這幾個案子包括北檢的案子請問一下你們檢察官在指揮偵辦這個案子的時候請問一下涉犯的法條是什麼"},{"start":932.567,"end":956.434,"text":"最近這個罷免聯署的案件目前初步看起來就是偽造文書嘛然後個人資料保護法就偽造文書跟個人資料保護法嘛對不對因為具體的偵查的細節要檢查官才知道但是目前非常的清楚就是偽造文書以及個人資料保護法那我想請問一下調查局偽造文書"},{"start":957.754,"end":974.874,"text":"跟各支你們是屬於你們組織法裡面第二條裡面的哪一個範圍哪一個執掌範圍你們組織法第二條有好幾種執掌範圍是請問是哪一種如果是在這個有跟選舉罷免有關的部分是屬於我們廉政工作的範圍"},{"start":976.892,"end":1000.745,"text":"廉政工作範圍嗎跟選舉罷免有關的就是廉政工作範圍過往都是在經濟嘛如果他單純是偽造文書的話是屬於經濟犯罪防治處的業務如果是在選舉罷免的這個階段的話我現在有一個問題嘛檢察官各地發的新聞稿到目前為止他涉犯的法條就兩個偽造文書以及違反各自法這兩個東西我剛剛請教一下"},{"start":1006.772,"end":1017.23,"text":"那你們這個偽造文書以前那個績效合分怎麼算這個就要看看我們業務處他的規定好沒關係這邊講不出來那沒有關係好那"},{"start":1021.164,"end":1047.424,"text":"我再請教你一個問題就是說你們最近真的弄到我已經覺得不知道該怎麼去面對你們請問一下局長你擔任基層調查官多久三十年那立案的標準是只要有情資就可以立案還是要有一定的證據當然要有一定程度的證據那立案是誰立案"},{"start":1048.965,"end":1074.736,"text":"各佔的立案者是誰?副主任嘛對不對也不一定喔有些是授權案件有些是非授權案件看案件的類型那立案的情況也很多有時候是檢察官交查的對不一定是我們主動發言根據你的經驗那個績效制度是不是有存在的必要這才能激勵基層辦案當然大家都要有一定的一個標準嘛對啊"},{"start":1075.538,"end":1099.549,"text":"好所以我在這邊跟各位報告就是說所謂的績效等等不管在民間企業或政府企業它其實關係到每個人的升遷還有考績我想這個大概沒有問題嘛一部分對好這當然是一部分啦我們還會考核它的那個那個青年度啦個性啦私生活等等這個我可以理解啦那所以說我今天我要請教你一個問題既然"},{"start":1105.029,"end":1121.526,"text":"好 那我想請教你一個問題這一次齁 這一次你所謂的幽靈聯署這個齁賈官他認為涉犯的法療是偽造文書跟違反個人資料保護法但是你們這個有關績效的評比你們是放在哪一個項目之下我剛剛有跟委員報告就是屬於廉政業務"},{"start":1123.537,"end":1128.822,"text":"今天檢察官說得非常清楚今天這些行為涉犯的叫做偽造文書以及違反個人資料保護法結果調查局用什麼來來合分給績效大家知道嗎他們用"},{"start":1146.294,"end":1170.066,"text":"用選舉查查為什麼過往調查官在選舉查的期間都像發了瘋一樣不管藍綠的選舉都像發了瘋一樣一直下去殺一直下去砍在選舉查查的期間因為選舉查查的和分續獎都比較高而且時間短他不像一般案件他要辦非常久才能夠拿得到他的組織才拿得到和分他個人才拿得到續獎"},{"start":1171.723,"end":1194.779,"text":"所以說選舉查查其間 很多人就等四年一次的地方選舉因為立委跟總統的選舉不好查所以他們很多調查官一直以來都在等這四年一次的地方選舉然後在這邊去拿到積分 拿到續獎因為這個東西跟他升遷有非常大的關聯性但是這一次不是 這一次我個人看到的結果是什麼"},{"start":1197.318,"end":1208.675,"text":"各位長官 各位司法的長官為了要讓這些調查官瘋狂的去查辦所有連連署的案件你把他認為這叫選舉查查案件然後我也跟兩位報告"},{"start":1211.327,"end":1228.55,"text":"請兩位知道一件事情我在這個體系做了20年我非常多好朋友非常多調查官我都認識他們會跟我們講很多事情他非常多事情不敢跟長官報告長官要求他什麼他也不得不做甚至檢察官有檢查一體制檢查一體制上級交辦什麼檢察官就必須要辦"},{"start":1229.751,"end":1252.027,"text":"還有檢查機制的存在調查站有上下隸屬的問題所以基層都不得不聽大家的指揮去辦但是他們心中有非常多的怨恨所以這段時間有不同的調查站一直跟我講同樣的問題就是今天這個案子連中選會都出來說新法有關偽造文書的部分跟這一次的連署適用舊法無關"},{"start":1253.85,"end":1273.97,"text":"無關 所以這次甲官所承辦的案子沒有關係到選舉罷免法但是調查局要希望調查官下去瘋狂的辦這個案子他把他的續講改為選舉塔塔的續講這就是今天問題的所在 我必須要告訴國人就是這樣"},{"start":1276.308,"end":1288.125,"text":"我知道在你們一定會講一個東西啦你說郭台銘那個案子的時候也有怎麼樣啦問你郭台銘那個連鎖的時候他是涉及到用錢去買他是有行賄的問題兩個完全不一樣我可以就你的問題說明嗎"},{"start":1291.189,"end":1308.995,"text":"好第一點我們針對這一次的連署罷免沒有任何的專案然後績效的部分就是回歸到選舉查查因為我想你也理解嘛這個在選舉罷免的階段的一些犯罪的行為當然就是選舉查查但是沒有特別加成也沒有特別的優待這是第一點"},{"start":1310.615,"end":1331.856,"text":"你會不會講這些在誤導國人我到現在此刻為止我到現在此刻為止我沒有跟你談加成喔我只是跟你講說你把一般刑案檢察官的一般刑案灌去選舉罷免法案件我跟你說明我們調查局內部的內控的做法嘛那我舉個例子來講司法詐欺他是詐欺還是司法"},{"start":1332.056,"end":1348.28,"text":"司法詐欺我們是在廉政案件然後再來一個這個選舉查查的績效不是你講的說很容易拿到然後分數又特別高反而是剛好相反我們選舉查查案件是必須要檢察官有起訴我們才會給績效所以不會說大家瘋狂的去做然後為了升遷局長你講這個"},{"start":1357.662,"end":1377.874,"text":"就像我講的你們總是講一些讓基層的人聽到之後會當笑話聽的不會不會選舉查的績效很難拿沒錯但是他的誘因就是很大因為他的續獎以他的合分就是誘因很大不然你看每次選舉查期間為什麼大家瘋狂的做我們沒有特別的續獎的規定在這個選舉查查沒有我今天把問題點出來啦"},{"start":1379.395,"end":1397.88,"text":"就很簡單的第一個你去所有我覺得國人都可以去問你所認識的調查官選舉查的分數及選舉查的續講是不是大家時間到就想講很多尤其是比較鄉下的調查站更希望利用四年一次的地方選舉機會好好的去辦選舉罷免案件"},{"start":1399.781,"end":1419.293,"text":"好 這是第一個 第二個 本次各地監署所發的信用稿它所相關的條文只有刑法以及個人資料保護法但是調查局 貴局竟然可以把它認定它的續講和分是用選罷法案件好 沒關係 你是調查局局長 你是主官你有你的決定權 但是我在這邊就告訴各位國人"},{"start":1425.965,"end":1448.34,"text":"司法是對付犯罪者 司法不是對付善良百姓我請各位要知道這個點然後另外請不要用這種方式去利誘調查官去辦這種案子這些調查官 基層調查官 基層檢察官都很辛苦他們也希望說能夠得到升遷 能夠得到續獎 大家都是這樣"},{"start":1449.605,"end":1462.2,"text":"我覺得當長官的 你要有那個肩膀扛下來 任何的壓力你今天做了一個以前沒有的事情以前沒有過的 已經違反法律的平等原則委員你放心啦 我們一定開大門走大路"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":399,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時32分）麻煩部長還有調查局局長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["吳委員宗憲：局長、部長，兩位早安。今天問的東西我已經公開地講好幾天，所以這絕對不會是突襲兩位，日前調查局還有宜蘭地檢署在搜索宜蘭縣黨部的時候，發生一個狀況，就是他們把非本案應該扣押的東西帶回了，部長知道這件事嗎？局長知道這件事嗎？"],["陳局長白立：知道。"],["吳委員宗憲：都知道嘛，對不對？好，跟各位報告，我當天晚上電話接不完啊！因為他們要去要回這些資料，因為隔天已經是最後一天必須要趕快去領表，但是當時中選會一開始是跟領銜人他們說，如果沒有公文在就不能夠領，而且領銜人的身分證還有他的委託書當時也都在縣調站，所以當時他們像熱鍋上的螞蟻，不知道該怎麼處理這件事情，我請他們依照正常的程序趕快跟地檢署說，結果地檢署第一份新聞稿說沒有扣這個東西，然後第二份新聞稿，就是我們在一直跟它講它說沒有，結果後來我們還拜託記者去跟它說，這時候才說有，然後有了以後，它發明了一個我從來沒有看過的東西。我想先請教部長，部長請問一下，我國扣押物品的扣押有哪幾種？部長知道嗎？好，沒關係，部長請看這個PowerPoint，除了一般我們對於搜索票上面已經載明應該扣押哪些東西之外，我們還有附帶扣押、另案扣押、非附隨於搜索的扣押。我想請教部長，宜蘭地檢署新聞稿說明，經過向調查官反應後，發現與本案相關查扣資料併同帶回調查站。請問部長，「併同帶回」是屬於哪一種扣押？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這就是扣押，可為證據或得沒收當然就是可扣押。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，它屬於哪一種扣押？「併同帶回」是扣押嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個帶回……"],["吳委員宗憲：幕僚都可以跟他說。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這還沒有扣押，搜索到的東西不一定……這有在搜索扣押的清冊裡面。這個要請調查局回答。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，請調查局回答。"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，你指的這一件文件，當時有在搜索扣押的清冊裡面。"],["吳委員宗憲：對。"],["陳局長白立：而且這個扣押的現場是由檢察官帶隊。"],["吳委員宗憲：這不是重點，憑什麼去查扣跟本案無關的東西，甚至公文上面一望即知，這跟一階連署有什麼關係？請問局長，我們可以去查扣非搜索票上面所載，跟本案無關，顯然是另案而且跟犯罪無關的東西，我們可以把它扣回去嗎？請問什麼叫做「併同帶回」？這是屬於刑事訴訟法的哪一個條文？"],["陳局長白立：我想委員可能對這件公文的內涵不是很清楚，因為偵查不公開的問題，所以我只能很籠統地告訴你，這件公文出現在那個現場就是一個問號，所以當時檢察官跟調查官要扣押這份公文……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，局長，這份公文出現在現場的問號是什麼，你跟我講清楚。"],["陳局長白立：這件公文……"],["吳委員宗憲：法律有沒有規定不可以有這個東西出現在現場？"],["陳局長白立：這件公文的受文者不是當時在這個搜索現場的人，所以檢察官覺得這個應該要釐清，他把它扣押回來，這不會有任何問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：這太離譜了吧！局長，有什麼規定是一份合法公文不能放在哪一個地點？我國法律有這樣規定嗎？"],["陳局長白立：對，所以檢察官需要釐清。"],["吳委員宗憲：局長，你不要騙我。"],["陳局長白立：所以檢察官需要釐清。"],["吳委員宗憲：局長，你講這個太外行了，你不要把我當外行人看，我一直在這邊跟各位報告……"],["陳局長白立：不會，委員很內行。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果我今天是外行人，你跟我講這個，我聽不懂就算了。如果照你這樣講，縣調站裡面也有非常多不是縣調站的東西，你們為什麼不全部查扣回家？","第二個，我想請問，什麼叫做「併同帶回」？需不需要立法院幫各位修法，把「併同帶回」四個字修進刑事訴訟法裡面？"],["陳局長白立：沒有，那個併同帶回……這件有在扣押清冊裡面的，整個程序是合法的，我跟委員報告，這一點你放心。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以今天不能扣押的東西，我愛扣就扣，只要在扣押物品清單裡面就可以嗎？局長，你的意思是這樣，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：檢察官在現場認定。"],["吳委員宗憲：你現在推給檢察官就對了？"],["陳局長白立：不是，檢察官他有帶隊的。"],["吳委員宗憲：法務部部長，請問一下，檢察官帶隊就可以隨便愛扣就扣嗎？部長，我不是不懂，麻煩部長說實話、麻煩局長說實話。"],["鄭部長銘謙：現場搜索如果檢察官當場認為有關聯性的，當然我們就可以扣押，可以先帶回釐清。但是我們有查過，新聞稿也說明公文發還給律師來簽收了，所以這個並沒有查扣，而且是在搜索的現場，這個好像是裡面的……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，已經多少次我們在這裡質詢，後來回去法官、檢察官看到覺得很可笑。"],["鄭部長銘謙：不可笑，本來……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我剛剛已經給你看了，我國刑事訴訟法的查扣方式有哪幾種。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，您也當過檢察官，你也知道帶隊去搜索的時候，有關連性的我們帶回去釐清，後來經過解釋，檢察官認為這個沒有查扣的必要，我們就發還了，所以這件並沒有查扣。"],["吳委員宗憲：第一個，我先各位說明，我認為把這個東西扣走就屬於不合法的扣押。第二個，即使你今天是一個合法的扣押，為什麼宜蘭地檢署第一份新聞稿說沒有這個事情，請問這是怎麼回事？為什麼第一份新聞稿跟第二份新聞稿的內容不一樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：釐清了，所以才發一個新聞稿說調查官將該紙公文交給律師領回。"],["吳委員宗憲：我不知道我國現在的制度可以荒謬解釋成這樣，我愛怎麼解釋就怎麼解釋。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有愛怎麼解釋就怎麼解釋，這個是依法搜索。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我尊重你是前輩，但是法律我們念的是同一套，如果照這樣的話，那以後搜索現場我愛扣什麼就扣什麼，我就說我要回家看，可以這樣嗎？","我再跟各位報告，我國刑事訴訟法沒有「併同帶回」這四個字，請你告訴我「併同帶回」是屬於扣押的哪一種？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這整個是放在一個文件裡面的。"],["吳委員宗憲：不能這樣講，放在文件裡面，這怎麼會這樣講呢？部長，我聽不懂耶！扣押的意思就是跟本案有關的犯罪物證才能扣押，即使我去一個地點搜索，如果我今天去總統府搜索，我要搜第幾局的東西，我可以把總統辦公室的東西一起扣走嗎？這我絕對反對到底的，一樣的邏輯或者我去總統府哪一個單位搜索，我可以把總統寫給他的東西一起扣走嗎？對不對？哪一個同仁採購涉嫌違法，我就把總統給他的另外一個公文一起帶走嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個可不可以扣押的問題，可為證據或得沒收之物當然可以扣押，檢察官在當場認為這是有關聯性的東西、有關聯性的一個證物，後來調查物釐清了，沒有扣押的必要，我們就發還給律師來領回了。"],["吳委員宗憲：報告部長，如果你要這樣解釋刑事訴訟法，那我們國內刑事訴訟法在強制處分那一章可能要完全大修了，就檢察官可以愛扣什麼就扣什麼，尤其是那一份公文，上面清清楚楚寫的是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官沒有愛扣什麼就扣什麼，這完全是合法的行為，這沒有什麼好……"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，今天當事人要求發還，你第一份新聞稿跟第二份新聞稿講的內容就不一樣，不要當大家是傻子，看不懂上面寫什麼。第一份新聞稿看到檢方這樣發，我還想說不可能，檢方不會騙人，我還跟他們說他們是不是弄錯了，結果後來他們還拜託記者去跟檢察官講了之後，才有第二份公文出來。我沒有辦法理解什麼叫做「併同帶回」，我現在能想到是不是我們還要幫兩個單位修法，否則我不知道怎麼去解釋「併同帶回」這件事。最後還好意思寫「嚴守法定程序」，要是我今天出了這個包，我就出來道歉。","另外，我也想跟部長、局長講一下，如果今天你查扣了，已經放進扣押物品清單了，然後你今天把證物袋打開，你有沒有踐行正常的啟封程序，有沒有？如果沒有的話，就便宜措施打開發還嗎？這個請各位去了解。你今天在辦的一個案子，如果已經高度爭議了，是不是程序上面要更嚴謹？我在這邊也跟各位報告，我們每個人都會出包，我們自己當檢察官的時候，有時候程序不小心也會錯，但是錯的時候你就出來道個歉，說這是不小心扣到並趕快發還，我覺得這樣大家都可以接受，每個人都一定會有不小心弄錯的時候，但是如果不小心弄錯了又硬拗自己沒有錯，硬拗這個屬於法定程序，我跟你講，如果我今天在當檢察官，我去你家搜索，愛扣什麼就扣什麼，我去搜兒子的東西，我把爸媽的存摺全部一起扣回家慢慢看，把爸媽手機一起扣回家，你看有沒有這個狀況？","我再跟部長和局長報告另外一件事情，有很多人抱怨當天去現場時，有些人根本跟本案無關，他們只是義工而已，手機就被到場的調查官要求拿出來給調查官看，在那邊看了一個小時之後才把它還給當事人，我想請問一下，這個法律依據是什麼？他們不是搜索扣押物喔！今天如果現場有個工友在那邊打掃，是不是也叫工友把手機拿來，我看一下裡面寫了什麼，我看得很高興，看完之後再還給他？請問一下，這個法律依據在哪裡？好吧，兩位答不出來，我再跟這個……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我跟委員報告，因為法院法官核定了一個搜索票，並依其內容執行搜索，依據刑事訴訟法第一百二十二條，對第三人身體、物件、電磁紀錄及住宅或其他處所，以有相當理由可信為被告或犯罪嫌疑人或應扣押之物或電磁紀錄存在時為限，得搜索之。所以現場……"],["吳委員宗憲：那你有沒有把這些人列為被告？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現場……"],["吳委員宗憲：今天這樣講，就我剛剛講的那個例子，今天如果總統府某一個人涉貪，譬如總統府有共諜案，我去那裡辦共諜案，我請總統手機交出來給我看，因為我懷疑你是犯罪嫌疑人，內亂外患罪我一樣可以辦你，可以這樣嗎？這樣的話，我國司法不就無限制了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果還有進行搜索，有刑事訴訟法第一百三十一條這些情況也可以直接逕行搜索，凡是可為證據或得沒收之物，得扣押之。這逕行搜索只是三日內陳報法院的問題而已。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，今天出來抱怨那些都是現場的義工，他們可能就在那邊打掃，調查局的人到現場就叫他們把手機交出來，而且非常多人，交出手機讓他們看了1個小時。看完了之後也沒踐行任何的程序，沒有扣押，也沒有把這些人簽為被告，手機就還給他們，今天人家不滿的是這個。如果兩位長官覺得這樣的行為是對的，沒關係，今天錄影會全程公開。","然後我再講另外一個，雖然最高檢說今天我點出來那些東西會傷害司法威信，但我跟兩位報告，你們再這樣操作下去，才是傷害司法威信。今天我講的每一個東西，都是告訴國人你在行政訴訟法上有什麼權益，在接受執行機關、司法機關調查搜索時，可以主張什麼，這個是我國刑事訴訟法保障每個人民的基本權利。民進黨不是最愛講基本人權嗎？我國憲法的基本人權明明白白規範在那裡，人民享有非常多的自由，有免於恐懼的自由，結果今天在面對調查官的時候，我跟本案完全無關，我是義工，我到現場掃地的，我到現場整理花圃的，然後叫我把手機交出來給他看，卻也沒有把我簽為被告，也不是犯罪嫌疑人，東西也沒有被查扣，你要是把它查扣回去看的話，我還無話可說，卻只是在現場看了1個小時後就發還。非常多地方的人遇到這種事情，如果兩位認為這樣是對的，好，沒關係，那就這樣，我在這邊只是跟各位報告，我在當司法人員一天，我總是要求每一個人要嚴守程序正義，因為程序正義是死的，改天回過頭來，當事人檢舉我的時候，我無話可說啊！因為不涉及主觀判斷。如果對於宜蘭的做法是這樣的，我真的不知道兩位回去如何面對你們所帶領的同仁。我從來不覺得可以在現場隨便要查扣什麼就查扣什麼，要人家交出手機就交出手機。士林、北投罷免吳思瑤的領銜人賴苡任，他女朋友的手機放在家裡，調查官還叫賴苡任問他女朋友的手機密碼是多少，要求他打開手機。其實這些在法律上都有問題，除非認為他女朋友跟他是共同正犯，也是犯罪嫌疑人之一，那我就沒有話說，但是今天你不能這樣做。我今天在這邊希望替國人要求的就是程序正義，國人在接受公權力執行的時候，有法律上合法的權利，我絕對支持國家偵辦犯罪，就像這一次偽造文書，不管別人怎麼講、不管人家說我如何，我就說偽造文書犯罪就是犯罪，該辦就是該辦，但是要注意一下比例原則對不對、平等性原則對不對，你辦藍辦綠的邏輯完全不一樣，我就沒法理解。","局長，我跟你請教一下，最近這幾個案子，包括北檢的案子，請問檢察官在指揮偵辦這個案子的時候，涉犯的法條是什麼？關於幽靈連署這個案子。"],["陳局長白立：最近這個罷免連署的案件，目前初步看起來就是偽造文書跟個人資料保護法等。"],["吳委員宗憲：就是偽造文書跟個人資料保護法嘛！"],["陳局長白立：因為具體的偵查細節要檢察官才知道。"],["吳委員宗憲：我可以理解，但是目前非常的清楚就是偽造文書跟個人資料保護法，那我想請問一下調查局，偽造文書跟個資是屬於組織法第二條中的那一個職掌範圍？組織法第二條有好幾種職掌範圍，請問是那一種？"],["陳局長白立：如果是跟選舉罷免有關的部分，是屬於廉政工作範圍。"],["吳委員宗憲：過往都是在經濟嘛！"],["陳局長白立：如果單純是偽造文書的話，是屬於經濟犯罪防制處的業務：如果是在選舉罷免階段的話，是廉政業務。"],["吳委員宗憲：我現在有個問題嘛！檢察官到目前為止在各地發的新聞稿中，涉犯的法條就兩個，偽造文書以及違反個資法。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我請教一下，偽造文書以前的績效核分怎麼算？"],["陳局長白立：這個就要看我們業務處的規定。"],["吳委員宗憲：你們這邊講不出來，那沒關係。我再請教你一個問題，你們最近已經弄到我不知道該如何面對你們了，請問局長擔任基層調查官多久？"],["陳局長白立：30年。"],["吳委員宗憲：立案的標準是只要有情資就可以立案，還是要有一定的證據？"],["陳局長白立：當然要有一定程度的證據。"],["吳委員宗憲：那立案是誰立案？各站的立案者是誰？"],["陳局長白立：各外勤立案。"],["吳委員宗憲：副主任嘛！"],["陳局長白立：也不一定喔，有些是……"],["吳委員宗憲：原則上啦！"],["陳局長白立：有些是授權案件，有些是非授權案件，看案件的類型。立案的情況也很多，有時候是檢察官交查的，不一定是我們主動發起的。"],["吳委員宗憲：根據你的經驗，績效制度是不是有存在的必要，才能激勵基層辦案？"],["陳局長白立：當然都要有一定的標準。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以我在這邊跟各位報告，所謂的績效等等，不管在民間企業或政府企業，其實都關係到每個人的升遷和考績，我想這個大概沒有問題。"],["陳局長白立：一部分。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，這當然是一部分，我們還會考核他的清廉度、個性和私生活等等，這個我可以理解。所以說我今天要請教你一個問題，這一次所謂的幽靈連署，檢察官認為涉犯的法條是偽造文書和違反個人資料保護法，但是有關績效的評比，你們是放在哪一個項目之下？"],["陳局長白立：我剛才有跟委員報告，這是屬於廉政業務，因為這個是選舉罷免……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，這個是你們的新聞稿，我跟各位請教一個問題，並且我要告訴國人，今天檢察官說的非常清楚，這些行為涉犯的是偽造文書和違反個人資料保護法，結果調查局用什麼來核分給績效大家知道嗎？他們用選舉查察。為什麼過往調查官在選舉查察期間，不管藍、綠的選舉，都像發了瘋一樣一直下去殺、一直下去砍，因為選舉查察期間的核分敘獎都比較高，而且時間短，不像一般案件要辦非常久，他的組織才拿得到核分，個人才拿得到敘獎，所以選舉查察期間，很多人就等4年一次的地方選舉。因為立委和總統的選舉不好查，很多調查官一直以來都在等4年一次的地方選舉，在這邊拿到積分和敘獎，因為這和他的升遷有非常大的關聯性。但是這一次不是，我個人看到的結果是什麼？各位司法的長官為了要讓這些調查官瘋狂地去查辦幽靈連署案件，而把它認定為選舉查察案件。","我也跟兩位報告，我在這個體系做了20年，我認識非常多的調查官好朋友，他們會跟我們講很多不敢跟長官報告的事情，只是長官要求的他們也不得不做。檢察官有檢察一體制，上級交辦什麼，檢察官就必須要辦，調查站有上下隸屬的問題，所以基層都不得不聽指揮去辦，但他們的心中有非常多的怨恨。所以這段期間有不同的調查站一直跟我講同樣的問題，今天這個案子連中選會都出來說，新法有關偽造文書的部分跟這一次的連署適用舊法無關，所以這一次檢察官承辦的案件與選舉罷免法無關，但是調查局希望調查官下去瘋狂地辦這個案子，而改為選舉查察案件敘獎，這就是今天問題的所在，我必須要告訴國人。你們一定會講一個東西，你們會說郭台銘那個案子的時候也有怎麼樣啦！因為郭台銘那個連署的時候是涉及用錢去買，它是有行賄的問題，兩個完全不一樣。"],["陳局長白立：委員，我可以就你的問題說明嗎？"],["吳委員宗憲：好。"],["陳局長白立：第一點，我們針對這一次的連署罷免沒有任何的專案，然後績效的部分回歸選舉查察，我想你也理解，在選舉罷免階段的犯罪行為，當然就是選舉查察，但是沒有特別加乘，也沒有特別的優待。然後第二點……"],["吳委員宗憲：局長，你後面講這些在誤導國人！"],["陳局長白立：我沒有誤導國人……"],["吳委員宗憲：我到此刻為止沒有跟你談加乘喔！"],["陳局長白立：這個就是調查局現行的制度……"],["吳委員宗憲：我只是跟你說你把檢察官的一般刑案灌去選舉罷免法案件。"],["陳局長白立：我跟你說明，我們調查局內部的內控做法，我舉一個例子來講，司法詐欺它是詐欺還是司法？司法詐欺是在廉政案件。再來，選舉查察的績效不是你講的很容易拿到，然後分數又特別高……"],["吳委員宗憲：局長……"],["陳局長白立：反而是剛好相反，我們選舉查察的案件必須要檢察官有起訴……"],["主席：局長，請就內容來回答，好不好？"],["陳局長白立：有起訴我們才會給績效，所以不會說大家為了升遷瘋狂地去做，這個不是你想像的。"],["吳委員宗憲：局長，你講這個，就像我講的，你們總是講一些讓基層的人聽到之後會當笑話聽的。"],["陳局長白立：不會。"],["吳委員宗憲：選舉查察績效很難拿，沒錯，但它的誘因就是很大。因為它的敘獎以及核分就是誘因很大，不然你看每次選舉查察期間，為什麼大家攻防……"],["陳局長白立：我們沒有特別的敘獎規定，在選舉查察上，沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：我今天把問題點出來，很簡單……"],["陳局長白立：我就回答你了。"],["吳委員宗憲：第一個，我覺得國人都可以去問你所認識的調查官，選舉查察的分數以及選舉查察的敘獎，是不是大家時間到就想搶？很多的尤其是比較鄉下的調查站，更希望利用四年一次的地方選舉機會好好地去辦選舉罷免案件。","第二個，本次各地檢署所發的新聞稿，相關的條文只有刑法以及個人資料保護法，但是調查局、貴局竟然可以認定它的敘獎核分是用選罷法案件。"],["陳局長白立：罷免期間的犯罪當然是選舉查察的項目。"],["吳委員宗憲：你是調查局局長，你是主官，你有你的決定權，但我在這邊就告訴各位國人，司法是對付犯罪者，司法不是對付善良百姓，我請各位要知道這個點。另外，請不要用這種方式利誘調查官去辦這種案子，這些基層調查官、基層檢察官都很辛苦，他們也希望能夠得到升遷、能夠得到敘獎，大家都是這樣。我覺得當長官的要有那個肩膀扛下來任何的壓力，你今天做了一個以前沒有的事情，以前沒有過的，已經違反法律平等原則了。"],["陳局長白立：委員你放心，我們一定開大門走大路，我們沒有特別針對藍綠的問題。"],["主席：我想時間的關係，是不是吳委員的質詢就到此，謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：下一位我們請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":353,"meetingDate":["2025-05-05"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法\n院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘\n部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜\n滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00007"}}},{"id":"160943","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160943","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/38e90b73e994f9b7e43caf56834776e17d3e2c5f8a9bba8e6af5cb2c6aef9296efb3babcbf3bc8885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:12:02 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向下刨根那這個個案的掌握到多少這部分我沒辦法干涉介入跟指導沒有關係 第一個"},{"start":129.528,"end":154.573,"text":"部長講的是向上溯源嚴辦這是法務部基本的立場至於個案是不是有向上溯源嚴辦的這件事情部長管不到基本上的立場就是這個樣子第二個部分是在這個府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子裡面其中一個關鍵人物是黃曲榮就黃曲榮的部分目前的偵辦是以為中國發展組織在偵辦還是單純用洩密在偵辦"},{"start":159.965,"end":183.277,"text":"這部分這個個案我沒辦法去回答這個問題OK好那第二個部分就吳尚宇的部分是為中共發展組織在偵辦還是單純洩密在偵辦這部分還是個案我們這個檢察官在偵辦中何仁傑的部分呢一樣嘛你知不知道這個案子台北地檢署總共發了幾次新聞稿"},{"start":187.117,"end":206.555,"text":"這個我不清楚這個案子從一開始到現在只有一次何仁傑抗告駁回的時候有發新聞稿其他的部分從來沒有發新聞稿一句話的解釋都沒有那針對何仁傑的部分所發的新聞稿倒是把罪名都寫出來了只有洩密啦"},{"start":208.144,"end":231.101,"text":"沒有為中共發展組織但今天部長在這邊講的話我希望偵辦的檢察官我希望偵辦的檢察官要聽進去如果基本上面部裡面的政策立場是要向上溯源嚴辦就不要搞拒建法什麼叫搞拒建法為中共發展組織不敢辦"},{"start":232.793,"end":253.667,"text":"因為涉及的人太多了因為涉及的人太多了單純拒見了以後辦泄密那是不是有這樣的狀況我們接下來按照整個個案偵辦的進度等到起訴了以後我們進一步來針對具體的內容來加以檢驗但我上次提到"},{"start":254.528,"end":277.632,"text":"何仁杰他基本上是一個涉及國家安全或重大利益的公務人員上一次外交部部長林佳龍承認外交部沒有依法辦理特殊查核那個時候林佳龍說他馬上會回去處理這個是在4月21號的事情那現在外交部處理的進度是什麼可不可以給大家說明一下"},{"start":283.732,"end":285.347,"text":"林佳龍說那天就要有結果嘛"},{"start":286.578,"end":315.169,"text":"跟委員報告就是那個和人節的部分然後到107年到我們外交部任職的時候他是只有進行一般的安全查核這個上次講過了那目前的話如果說部裡面現在的同仁的話我們還是要按照行政院跟考試院定的特殊查核辦法他裡面有規範就是現在有哪些人必須要查核和人節要不要做特殊安全查核"},{"start":316.785,"end":343.806,"text":"呃 如果不要說如果我4月20幾號就問過的問題了林佳龍也說要回去處理本來說那個禮拜要給大家答案我等了半天等不到外交部的說明那我就很懷疑林佳龍那時候在備詢的時候是欽差公共欸所以我今天才特別提出來嘛不要浪費時間針對問題回答啦現在如果依照現在的規定的話目前目前如果是用呃 聘用人員"},{"start":345.047,"end":364.62,"text":"擔任所謂的秘書的話目前的話還是沒有辦法進行特殊查核你的意思是說何仁杰依照辦法本來就不用辦特殊安全查核嗎他一開始的時候進入國安會的時候為什麼要做特殊安全查核為什麼轉到外交部的時候不用做特殊安全查核因為喔"},{"start":365.521,"end":391.052,"text":"今天你在這邊的說明跟那天林佳龍的說明完全是矛盾的那天林佳龍承認說他應該要辦特殊安全查核但今天外交部似乎改口說他是聘用所以不用辦特殊安全查核能夠接觸到這麼機敏的部長室裡面機密傳真的人竟然不用辦特殊安全查核這不是一件很離譜的事情嗎"},{"start":392.476,"end":420.567,"text":"再跟我們報告一下就是依照當時和人節107年進到外交部的時候外交部當時候是用所謂的聘用人員來禁用他那當時候列在特殊查核的一覽表的名單就沒有把它列進去所以當時候是不用那如果是現在的話因為行政院已經有公開宣示了以後處理比較機敏的業務的話我問比較核心關鍵的問題啦"},{"start":422.248,"end":447.801,"text":"哪些人應該辦特殊安全查核是由誰決定的是不是行政機關決定的行政機關現在完全公務人員任用法授權給行政機關去做決定嘛那行政機關怎麼會做一個這麼荒謬的決定明明可以接觸機敏資訊的因為他是部長帶來的人他是機要然後就可以不用辦特殊安全查核這不是國家安全的重大漏洞嗎"},{"start":449.142,"end":461.528,"text":"這個部分以後我們會來補強對啊 等到出了事了以後現在才說以後要補強你現在的說明是什麼責任就不用追究了嘛當初沒有辦特殊安全查核剛剛好而已嘛"},{"start":463.188,"end":490.783,"text":"今天外交部的說明的立場不就是這個樣子嗎但大家看不下去啊立法者授權給你們行政機關決定哪些人要做特殊安全查核結果因為是部長帶去的寵臣所以就可以不用做要不要做也是你們決定的啊該做沒有做 該規範沒有規範出現了國家安全的重大漏洞這件事情不需要有人負責嗎這件事情不需要有人負責嗎"},{"start":492.797,"end":514.748,"text":"誰要負責任支吾昭縣要負責任嗎人躲起來啦連來都不敢來啊誰要負責任立法者都充分授權給你們啦授權給你們的結果是什麼善慢善慢該做沒有做事情就這麼簡單來人種外交部啊"},{"start":522.864,"end":543.778,"text":"今天翻共啊林佳龍當初是說應該做沒有做啊結果到今天真相大白啊按照外交部自己提報的人連做都不用做好來第二個吳尚宇從副總統時期就任用了到總統時期還是任用他要不要做特殊安全查核"},{"start":545.452,"end":566.843,"text":"據瞭解那個吳尚宇也是聘用人員那跟委員報告所以吳尚宇是聘用人員也不用做特殊安全查核是這樣嗎因為特查辦法如果是特查辦法的話是任用法的授權命令那不是依照任用法禁用的人員目前不在於那個辦法的涵蓋範圍之內所以呢這個法規上面的問題授權給你們法規上面的問題什麼時候發生的因為這很離譜嘛"},{"start":572.046,"end":598.333,"text":"一般現在 我最近接到一堆投訴啊公務人員說 辦他們的查核的時候辦得把他們當賊一樣 辦得非常緊結果 跟民進黨這些大官出入重要地方的 真正是機要真正可以接觸機敏資訊的通通都沒有辦所以今天才會搞出這個洞出來啊才會搞出這個洞出來啊"},{"start":599.349,"end":609.497,"text":"我剛講得很清楚啦都是授權給你們行政機關做結果現在沒有做該辦沒有辦出了事沒有人要負責我們的政府不是要強化有關於國安案件的處理嗎怎麼會處理成這個樣子處理得哩哩啦啦讓人民看不下去再下一個來 請部長"},{"start":631.135,"end":652.393,"text":"我上次啊 問了調查局局長一個關鍵的問題啊你剛剛說啊 偵辦當中的資訊啊檢察官不會洩漏啊 你們都不會知道那很奇怪啊為什麼 吳尚宇的事情 總統府會知道在拘提吳尚宇前一天 總統府就把他解職了 誰洩密"},{"start":655.954,"end":682.313,"text":"這個 你們有依法會通報總統府嗎上次電話局局長否認嘛說沒有通報總統府這個真漫無善語的事情我是看報紙我才知道的你完全毫無所惜我毫無所惜北檢有沒有通報總統府這個不可能通報不可能通報所以我們現在總統府是通靈喔在發動G提前一天就知道要把無辜善語解除職務沒有人通報的話總統府怎麼知道"},{"start":683.697,"end":712.632,"text":"通靈嗎所以問題就來了嘛壓了兩個人以後要辦吳尚宇之前前一天總統府把他解除職務我非常納悶啊總統府怎麼知道吳尚宇要出事了結果在前一天把他解除職務身為偵辦過犯罪檢察官的法務部部長你不會覺得很奇怪嗎還是不用去查"},{"start":714.046,"end":739.181,"text":"這種事情不用查 不要查總統府怎麼會知道總統府不可能知道啊對嘛 所以我就問你嘛如果不知道的話怎麼會在發動G提前一天把他解除職務很巧 心有靈犀還是通靈作為一個曾經偵辦犯罪過的檢察官你不會覺得很奇怪嗎我是覺得超級奇怪"},{"start":741.001,"end":761.512,"text":"如果偵查當中的訊息沒有人通報怎麼會在前一天把他解除職務我們從法律面上面來講這種事情依法要通報總統府嗎要嗎這個沒有通報是不是有通報事實層面的問題現在我問的是法規範層面的問題依法要通報總統府嗎"},{"start":766.045,"end":787.887,"text":"偵查中的個案本來就是有檢察官來依法偵辦嘛對 所以依法要通報總統府嗎這個沒有通報的規定依照法律的規定 沒有通報的規定 不能通報嘛不能通報嘛 對吧但是什麼 現在又有但是囉"},{"start":789.656,"end":811.256,"text":"到底有通報沒有通報所以到底有沒有通報這個沒有通報啊對啊所以我現在問題就來了嘛我們繞來繞去嘛現在出現了一個大謎團嘛法務部部長堅稱沒有通報我相信你沒通報因為你說你不知道嘛北檢有沒有通報北檢不可能會通報啊"},{"start":812.148,"end":834.35,"text":"你有去查嗎這個怎麼可能會通報呢你的意思是說你都不用去問啦北檢絕對不會通報現在問題還是沒解決嘛所以總統府是通靈還是心有離析他怎麼會知道要發動搜索前一天就把他給放了就把他給解除職務你不知道嘛你不知道答案是什麼嘛"},{"start":836.738,"end":862.81,"text":"但是這個是不是一個值得追究的問題我認為這是一個值得追究的問題所以我今天公開告發請北檢分案調查總統府怎麼知道的請北檢分案調查總統府怎麼知道的剛好前一天把他解除職務如果有人通報的話有沒有洩密罪的問題"},{"start":865.011,"end":894.162,"text":"沒關係你繼續堅稱沒有人通報啦現在我問的全部都是法規範層面的問題喔如果有人通報有沒有洩密罪的問題有吧有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪這有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪就是不敢回答喔我為什麼不敢回答這就依法認定嘛對啊所以有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪有還是沒有這個就依法認定對嘛所以我就說你不敢回答嘛來下一個司法院"},{"start":896.345,"end":909.375,"text":"我們目前司法院設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業目前我們都有對國安軍事專庭的人員有進行專業的訓練所以按照司法院的觀點現在設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業"},{"start":911.118,"end":931.024,"text":"我們認為我們在法官事務分配規則這部分有做專業跟久任的一些相關的規劃這個我了解你們都有做規劃白紙黑字大家都看到了現在我在問司法院的事情是按照你們自己設置了這個國安軍事專庭了以後到今天為止你們認為具體實施起來國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業"},{"start":934.178,"end":954.37,"text":"我們認為法官的專業程度應該是夠的應該是夠的嘛所以目前的國安軍事專庭足以處理有關於國家軍事安全的案件這個是司法院現在的立場嗎是 沒錯好 第二個司法院認為目前針對國安軍事專庭法官的判刑有沒有判刑過輕的問題"},{"start":956.176,"end":980.603,"text":"這個部分我們在歷次的說明沒有判刑過輕的問題所以沒有判刑過輕的問題因為涉及到法定刑但是法律修正的問題所以目前判起來都相關可以看到我們把問題理清啦是司法院認為依照現行法的規定沒有判刑過輕的問題那至於說要不要判得更重這是立法者的決定我這樣說是不是司法院的立場"},{"start":981.892,"end":989.452,"text":"我們認為我們是依在在法定行列 適當的量刑是 所以嘛在現行法下面 你認為沒有判刑過輕的問題嗎"},{"start":992.906,"end":1012.205,"text":"所以要不要提高刑度是立法者的問題嗎最後一個問題來請教部長部長我上次有請教過你就是說泄密給中國跟泄密給外國法定型應該要區別對待也就是泄密給中國要提高刑度這件事情我上次請教你"},{"start":1013.254,"end":1041.649,"text":"你沒有表達意見有受廣納意見嗎是那我上一次在內政委員會問次長的時候次長說他個人的意見是贊成那目前從上次到現在法務部廣納各界社會意見了以後現在的決定是什麼贊不贊成洩密給中國的要提高法定刑剛剛你也聽到司法院怎麼講嘛他們認為喔司法院自己認為我沒有說司法院講的是對的啦社會上有很多批評嘛"},{"start":1042.77,"end":1054.431,"text":"司法院認為說在現在的法定刑下法官量刑沒有問題那接下來是立法院要不要提高刑度的問題現在針對洩密給中國要提高刑罰這件事情法務部有立場了嗎"},{"start":1056.108,"end":1073.06,"text":"這邊我認為還是廣納意見因為本來就是國家機密保護法第32條33條本來就是有加重的一個規定了嘛他是當然是委員有提到所以你現在你認為現在的規定是夠了是不是那是外國那個那夠不夠的話我們再跟社會看社會的一個好沒關係你們還要廣納社會的意見還要廣納多久"},{"start":1076.287,"end":1092.499,"text":"這個上次委員是講的是四月是四月份四月二十幾號的沒關係啊我現在就說你們要廣大多久因為啦對於你來講啊這可能是一個新的問題但對於民進黨政府來講這絕對不是新的問題"},{"start":1093.956,"end":1115.608,"text":"我2018年的時候就把這個問題搬到檯面上但是很奇怪民進黨政府從頭到尾反對從行政部門到立法部門從頭到尾反對到目前為止各個委員所提出來的國家安全法的修正草案你們在法務部的報告裡面說會強加的去研議"},{"start":1117.049,"end":1127.924,"text":"會研議了以後表示法務部的意見嗎書面報告是這樣寫的沒有錯吧好那你們看完了民進黨所有的委員所提的提案的時候有沒有認為"},{"start":1129.734,"end":1158.095,"text":"洩密給中國相較於洩密給外國應該要加重處罰的規定有還是沒有這個本來就是加重處罰的規定啊我說國家安全法請你看國家安全法好不好你在書面報告裡面講的就是國家安全法嘛現在在內政委員會審議的也是國家安全法嘛針對國家安全法現在民進黨委員所提出來的提案有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的修正條文有還是沒有"},{"start":1159.298,"end":1186.036,"text":"還是不是很清楚那些條文還沒有細看這個是第二條第七條的是我知道啊沒有區分啊現在國家安全法第二條第三款第二款第三款都沒有區分啊泄密倒是沒有嘛不過國家安全法本來就是就這樣的一個泄密行為就有一個處罰所以請你針對問題回答嘛你們說你們要按照國家安全法各個委員所提出來的版本好好回去研議我相信你的話啊"},{"start":1186.716,"end":1213.456,"text":"所以我相信你研議過啦我相信提了什麼條文你很熟啊要不然法務部今天提出來的報告是欽差公共的喔針對民進黨委員所提出來的修正條文有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的規定有還是沒有目前是沒有啊目前沒有嘛那這樣問題就清楚了嘛勇敢講嘛怕什麼我具體跟部長講啊我提案的內容洩密給中國加重處罰"},{"start":1215.465,"end":1224.872,"text":"這個是社會的期待這是人民的憤怒這是你們提的這一拖拉鼓報告所在講問題的核心碰都不敢碰"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":277,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時12分）謝謝主席，麻煩請司法院刑事廳廳長、法務部部長、外交部政風處處長，以及人事行政總處培訓考用處處長。各位好。因為時間的關係，我就不一一問候。今天召委安排了有關於府院黨綠色共諜橫行的專案報告，其中有幾件事情是今天這個報告要特別加以檢討的，但是很遺憾的，不管是總統府還是國安會，兩個涉案最深的單位完全沒有派任何人來列席司法及法制委員會，我相信大家看在眼裡，心中都有一定的評價，但我不要浪費時間，直接往下講。","首先請教法務部，法務部在今天提出的書面報告第3頁最下面寫到會「向上溯源嚴辦」，目前針對這個橫跨府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子，向上溯源嚴辦是辦到什麼地方了？因為「向上溯源嚴辦」是你的書面報告寫的內容，那就不要講空話，這個案子現在向上溯源嚴辦辦到什麼地方了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是屬於通案的一個態度，我想違反國安犯罪的這個部分對我們國防及國家安全影響很大，但是現在都在個案偵辦中，我們的要求就是檢察機關在辦理國安案件的時候一定要向上溯源、向下刨根，這個個案掌握到多少……"],["黃委員國昌：所以剛剛部長講的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我沒辦法干涉、介入、指導。"],["黃委員國昌：對，沒有關係啦！第一個，部長講的是向上溯源嚴辦，這是法務部基本的立場，至於個案是不是有向上溯源嚴辦的這件事情，部長管不到，但基本上的立場就是這個樣子嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，第二個部分，在府院黨綠色共諜橫行的案子裡面，其中一個關鍵人物是黃取榮，就黃取榮的部分，目前是以為中國發展組織在偵辦，還是單純用洩密在偵辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分是個案，我沒辦法回答這個問題。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好。第二個部分，就吳尚雨的部分，是為中共發展組織在偵辦，還是單純洩密在偵辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分也還是個案，檢察官在偵辦中。"],["黃委員國昌：何仁傑的部分呢？一樣嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你知不知道這個案子，臺北地檢署總共發了幾次新聞稿，知不知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：您不清楚嘛。這個案子從一開始到現在，只有何仁傑抗告駁回的時候有發一次新聞稿，其他的部分從來沒有發新聞稿，一句解釋的話都沒有。針對何仁傑的部分所發的新聞稿，倒是把罪名都寫出來了，只有洩密，沒有為中共發展組織，但今天部長在這邊講的話，我希望偵辦的檢察官要聽進去。如果部裡面的基本政策立場是要向上溯源嚴辦，就不要搞鋸箭法，什麼叫搞鋸箭法？為中共發展組織不敢辦，因為涉及的人太多了，因為涉及的人太多了，單純鋸箭了以後辦洩密。是不是有這樣的狀況，我們接下來按照整個個案偵辦的進度，等到起訴了以後，我們進一步針對具體內容加以檢驗。我上次提到，何仁傑基本上是一個涉及國家安全或重大利益的公務人員，上一次外交部部長林佳龍承認外交部沒有依法辦理特殊查核，那個時候林佳龍說他馬上會回去處理，這是在4月21號的事情，現在外交部處理的進度是什麼？可不可以給大家說明一下？林佳龍說那天就要有結果。"],["呂處長世壹：跟委員報告，關於何仁傑的部分，107年到我們外交部任職的時候，他只有進行一般的安全查核……"],["黃委員國昌：這個上次講過了。"],["呂處長世壹：對。目前的話、如果是部裡面現任同仁的話，我們還是要按照行政院跟考試院定的特殊查核辦法，裡面有規範現在有哪些人必須要查核。"],["黃委員國昌：何仁傑要不要做特殊安全查核？"],["呂處長世壹：如果……"],["黃委員國昌：不要說如果，我四月二十幾號就問過的問題了……"],["呂處長世壹：沒有，現在……"],["黃委員國昌：林佳龍也說要回去處理，本來說那個禮拜要給大家答案，我等了半天，等不到外交部的說明，我就很懷疑林佳龍那時候在備詢的時候是隨便說說的，所以我今天才特別提出來。不要浪費時間，針對問題回答啦。"],["呂處長世壹：依照現在的規定，如果是用聘用人員擔任所謂秘書的話，目前還是沒有辦法進行特殊查核。"],["黃委員國昌：你的意思是說，何仁傑依照辦法本來就不用辦特殊安全查核嗎？"],["呂處長世壹：對。因為當時……"],["黃委員國昌：他一開始進入國安會的時候，為什麼要做特殊安全查核，為什麼轉到外交部的時候就不用做特殊安全查核？今天你在這邊的說明跟那天林佳龍的說明完全是矛盾的，那天林佳龍承認，他應該要辦特殊安全查核，但今天外交部似乎改口，說他是聘用，所以不用辦特殊安全查核，能夠接觸到部長室裡面這麼機敏、機密傳真的人，竟然不用辦特殊安全查核，這不是一件很離譜的事情嗎？"],["呂處長世壹：再跟委員報告一下，依照當時何仁傑107年進到外交部的時候，外交部當時是用聘用人員來進用他，當時列在特殊查核一覽表的名單就沒有把他列進去，所以當時是不用。如果是現在的話，因為行政院已經有公開宣示了，以後處理比較機敏業務的話……"],["黃委員國昌：我問比較核心關鍵的問題，哪些人應該辦特殊安全查核是由誰決定的，是不是行政機關決定的？"],["呂處長世壹：是。"],["黃委員國昌：現在公務人員任用法完全授權給行政機關決定嘛？"],["呂處長世壹：是。"],["黃委員國昌：那行政機關怎麼會做這麼荒謬的決定，明明可以接觸機敏資訊的，因為他是部長帶來的人，他是機要，然後就可以不用辦特殊安全查核，這不是國家安全的重大漏洞嗎？"],["呂處長世壹：這個部分以後我們會來補強。"],["黃委員國昌：對，等到出事了以後，現在才說以後要補強，你現在的說明是什麼？責任就不用追究了，當初沒有辦特殊安全查核剛剛好而已嘛。今天外交部說明的立場，不就是這個樣子嗎？但大家看不下去，立法者授權給你們行政機關決定哪些人要做特殊安全查核，結果因為是部長帶去的寵臣，所以就可以不用做，要不要做也是你們決定的，該做沒有做，該規範沒有規範，出現了國家安全的重大漏洞，這件事情不需要有人負責嗎？這件事情不需要有人負責嗎？誰要負責任？是吳釗燮要負責任嗎？人躲起來了，連來都不敢來，誰要負責任？立法者都充分授權給你們，授權給你們的結果是什麼？散漫！散漫！該做的沒有做，事情就這麼簡單。","來，人總，外交部今天翻供，林佳龍當初說的應該做卻沒有做，結果到今天真相大白，按照外交部自己提報的人連做都不用做。來，第二個，吳尚雨從副總統時期就任用了，到總統時期還是繼續任用，他要不要做特殊安全查核？"],["李處長花書：據了解吳尚雨也是聘用人員。跟委員報告，因為特查……"],["黃委員國昌：吳尚雨是聘用人員，所以也不用做特殊安全查核，是這樣嗎？"],["李處長花書：因為特查辦法是任用法的授權命令，不是依照任用法進用的人員，目前不在那個辦法的涵蓋範圍之內，那……"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？"],["李處長花書：是，當然也跟委員……"],["黃委員國昌：這個法規上面的問題授權給你們，法規上面的問題什麼時候發生的？因為這很離譜嘛，我最近接到一堆投訴，一般現在的公務人員說，辦他們的查核的時候，辦得把他們當賊一樣，辦得非常緊，結果跟民進黨這些大官出入重要地方的，真正是機要，真正可以接觸機敏資訊的通通都沒有辦，所以今天才會搞出這個洞出來啊。我剛剛講得很清楚了，都是授權給你們行政機關做，結果現在沒有做，該辦沒有辦，出了事沒有人要負責。我們的政府不是要強化有關於國安案件的處理嗎？怎麼會處理成這個樣子，處理得七零八落，讓人民看不下去。","再下一個，來，請部長。我上次問了調查局局長一個關鍵的問題，你剛剛說偵辦當中的資訊檢察官不會洩漏，你們都不會知道，那很奇怪啊，為什麼吳尚雨的事情總統府會知道，在拘提吳尚雨前一天，總統府就把他解職了，誰洩密？你們有依法通報總統府嗎？上次調查局局長否認，他說沒有通報總統府。"],["鄭部長銘謙：偵辦吳尚雨這件事，我是看報紙才知道的。"],["黃委員國昌：你完全毫無所悉？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我毫無所悉。"],["黃委員國昌：北檢有沒有通報總統府？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不可能通報。"],["黃委員國昌：不可能通報，所以現在總統府是通靈喔？在發動拘提前一天就知道要把吳尚雨解除職務，沒有人通報的話，總統府怎麼知道？通靈嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個總統不可能知道，這個不通報。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，所以問題就來了嘛，問題就來了嘛。押了兩個人以後，要辦吳尚雨之前，前一天總統府把他解除職務，我非常納悶，總統府怎麼知道吳尚雨要出事了，結果在前一天把他解除職務。身為偵辦過犯罪檢察官的法務部部長，你不會覺得很奇怪嗎？還是不用去查，這種事情不用查、不要查，總統府怎麼會知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：總統府不可能知道啊。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，所以我就問你嘛，如果不知道的話，怎麼會在發動拘提前一天把他解除職務，很巧，心有靈犀還是通靈？作為一個曾經偵辦過犯罪的檢察官，你不會覺得很奇怪嗎？我是覺得超級奇怪。如果偵查當中的訊息沒有人通報，怎麼會在前一天把他解除職務？我們從法律層面上來講，這種事情依法要通報總統府嗎？要嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有通報啊。"],["黃委員國昌：是不是有通報，這是事實層面的問題，現在我問的是法規範層面的問題，依法要通報總統府嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：偵查中的個案本來就是由檢察官依法偵辦嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以依法要通報總統府嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有通報的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：依照法律的規定，沒有通報的規定，不能通報嘛，對吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是……"],["黃委員國昌：但是什麼？現在又有但是了，到底有通報、沒有通報？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個主要是偵查不公開的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以到底有沒有通報？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有通報。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以現在問題就來了，我們繞來繞去現在出現了一個大謎團，法務部部長堅稱沒有通報，我相信你沒通報，因為你說你不知道。北檢有沒有通報？"],["鄭部長銘謙：北檢不可能會通報。"],["黃委員國昌：你有去查嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個怎麼可能會通報呢？"],["黃委員國昌：你的意思是說你都不用去問，北檢絕對不會通報，現在問題還是沒解決嘛！所以總統府是通靈還是心有靈犀？他們怎麼會知道？要發動搜索前一天就把他給放了、就把他給解除職務，你不知道嘛！你不知道答案是什麼嘛！但是這個是不是一個值得追究的問題？我認為這是一個值得追究的問題，所以我今天公開告發，請北檢分案調查總統府怎麼知道的？剛好前一天把他解除職務，如果有人通報的話，有沒有洩密罪的問題？沒關係，你繼續堅稱沒有人通報，現在我問的全部都是法規範層面的問題，如果有人通報有沒有洩密罪的問題？有吧？有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪，就是……"],["黃委員國昌：不敢回答哦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我有什麼不敢回答，這就依法認定嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，所以有沒有涉及到刑事犯罪？有還是沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個就依法認定。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以我就說你不敢回答嘛。","來，下一個司法院。我們目前司法院設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業？"],["李廳長釱任：目前我們都有對國安軍事專庭的人員進行專業訓練。"],["黃委員國昌：所以按照司法院的觀點，現在設置的國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業？"],["李廳長釱任：我們認為我們在法官事務分配規則這部分有做專業跟久任的一些相關規劃。"],["黃委員國昌：這個我了解，你們都有規劃，白紙黑字大家都看到了。"],["李廳長釱任：從109年開始……"],["黃委員國昌：現在我在問司法院的事情是，按照你們自己設置國安軍事專庭以後，到今天為止，你們認為具體實施起來國安軍事專庭夠不夠專業？"],["李廳長釱任：我們認為法官的專業程度應該是夠的。"],["黃委員國昌：應該是夠的嘛，所以目前的國安軍事專庭足以處理有關於國家軍事安全的案件，這個是司法院現在的立場。"],["李廳長釱任：是，沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：好。第二個，司法院認為目前針對國安軍事專庭法官的判刑，有沒有判刑過輕的問題？"],["李廳長釱任：這個部分，我們在歷次的說明已經說明過，並沒有判刑過輕的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：所以沒有判刑過輕的問題。"],["李廳長釱任：這個涉及到法定刑，那是法律修正的問題，所以目前判起來相關，可以看到……"],["黃委員國昌：我們把問題釐清。"],["李廳長釱任：是。"],["黃委員國昌：司法院認為依照現行法的規定沒有判刑過輕的問題，至於要不要判得更重，這是立法者的決定，我這樣說是不是司法院的立場？"],["李廳長釱任：我們認為我們是在法定刑內適當的量刑。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以在現行法下面你認為沒有判刑過輕的問題嘛，對吧？"],["李廳長釱任：是。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛？"],["李廳長釱任：是。"],["黃委員國昌：所以要不要提高刑度是立法者的問題嘛？"],["李廳長釱任：對，我們尊重大院的職權。"],["黃委員國昌：好，最後一個問題請教部長，部長，我上次有請教過你，洩密給中國跟洩密給外國的法定刑應該要區別對待，也就是洩密給中國要提高刑度這件事情，我上次請教你，你沒有表達意見。"],["鄭部長銘謙：要廣納意見嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：是，我上一次在內政委員會問次長的時候，次長說他個人的意見是贊成，從上次到現在，法務部廣納各界社會意見以後，現在的決定是什麼？贊不贊成洩密給中國的要提高法定刑？剛剛你也聽到司法院怎麼講，司法院自己認為……我沒有說司法院講的是對的，社會上有很多批評，司法院認為在現在的法定刑下法官量刑沒有問題，接下來是立法院要不要提高刑度的問題。現在針對洩密給中國要提高刑罰這件事情，法務部有立場了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我認為還是廣納意見，因為國家機密保護法第三十二條、第三十三條本來就有加重的規定。當然委員有提到……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你認為現在的規定夠了，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是外國那個……但夠不夠的話，我們再廣納社會的意見。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒關係，你們還要廣納社會的意見，還要廣納多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個上次委員講的是四月二十幾號的……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，我現在就說你們要廣納多久？因為對於你來講，這可能是一個新的問題，但對於民進黨政府來講，這絕對不是新的問題，我2018年的時候就把這個問題搬到檯面上，但是很奇怪，民進黨政府從頭到尾反對，行政部門到立法部門從頭到尾反對。到目前為止，各個委員所提出來的國家安全法修正草案，你們在法務部的報告裡面說會詳加研議，會在研議了以後表示法務部的意見，書面報告是這樣寫的，沒有錯吧？好，那你們看完了民進黨委員所提的提案，有沒有認為洩密給中國相較於洩密給外國應該要加重處罰的規定？有還是沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個本來就是加重處罰的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：我說國家安全法。請你看國家安全法好不好？你在書面報告裡面講的就是國家安全法，現在在內政委員會審議的也是國家安全法嘛！針對國家安全法，現在民進黨委員所提出來的提案，有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的修正條文？有還是沒有？還是不是很清楚，那些條文還沒有細看？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是第二條、第七條的……"],["黃委員國昌：是，我知道，沒有區分啊！現在國家安全法第二條第二款、第三款都沒有區分。"],["鄭部長銘謙：洩密當然是沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：不過國家安全法本來就是就這樣的洩密行為有處罰的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：請你針對問題回答，你們說你們要按照國家安全法各個委員所提出來的版本好好回去研議，我相信你的話，所以我相信你研議過了，我相信提了什麼條文你很熟，要不然法務部今天提出來的報告是隨便說說的嗎？針對民進黨委員所提出來的修正條文，有沒有針對洩密給中國要加重處罰的規定？有還是沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前是沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：目前沒有嘛！這樣問題就清楚了，勇敢講嘛！怕什麼？我具體跟部長講，我提案的內容是洩密給中國加重處罰，這個是社會的期待、這是人民的憤怒、這是你們提的這一堆報告所講的核心問題，碰都不敢碰！"],["主席：好，謝謝黃委員。我們請林倩綺委員先代理主席。"],["主席（林委員倩綺代）：好，我們請吳宗憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":353,"meetingDate":["2025-05-05"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請總統府秘書長、國家安全會議秘書長、國家安全局、外交部、大陸委員會，並再次邀請司法\n院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、法務部廉政署署長、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘\n部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「近期連環爆發總統府、國家安全會議、外交部遭共諜\n滲透及忠誠安全查核不足，導致國家機敏資訊外洩，提出檢討報告及相關防制措施之預算執行情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00007"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}