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社會及國土安全任性特別條例交經濟財政良委員會審查"},{"start":2025.496,"end":2045.525,"text":"三十六文范雲等理據青年基本法交交易局文化委員會審查三十七至三十八文邱振軍等理據貨物稅條例交財政委員會審查中華民國刑法交司法及法治委員會審查三十九至四十文王日明等理據道路交通管理處法條例交交通委員會審查慰安婦名譽恢復及賠償條例交司法及法治委員會審查"},{"start":2047.246,"end":2064.141,"text":"41.許智傑你撤回刑事訴訟法你請議員會同意撤回42.刑事院行政審議青年基本法交交易局文化委員會審查43至75行政院經濟部內政部農業部財政部金管會交易部交通部工程會考試院法務部考選部衛福部等函送書面資料交相關委員會"},{"start":2065.302,"end":2089.822,"text":"七十六至四八二國發會經濟部農業部公平會主計總署國科會和安會運安會抒發部工程會總統府法務部人事總署權需部監察院勞動部行政院內政部洛委會客委會當產會外交部國防部等涵為預算決議事項交相關委員會處理國民黨黨團提議陣列一委員廖先祥等已具兒童及少年福利權益保障法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查"},{"start":2090.743,"end":2109.234,"text":"二、國民黨黨團拟據因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費任性特別條例交經濟財政兩委員會審查三、委員政聽財政拟據青年基本法交交易全文化委員會審查四至五、委員徐宇貞等拟據長期照顧保險法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查中華民國刑法交司法提法制委員會審查"},{"start":2110.888,"end":2138.236,"text":"民進黨黨團提議整列六委員林楚映等理局國家情報工作法交外交局國防委員會審查七十八委員賴月榮等理局動物保護法交經濟委員會審查國家安全法交內政委員會審查九委員林益錦等理局立法委員行為法交司法及法治委員會審查十五委員沈伯央等理局香港澳門關係條例交內政委員會審查十一委員李柏毅等理局立法院議事規則交司法及法治委員會審查十二至二十四委員郭國文等委員沈伯央等委員黃潔等委員郭育晴等委員張宏祿等委員張雅玲等委員林月"},{"start":2139.076,"end":2159.667,"text":"委員李博義等委員吳秉瑞等委員陳培宇等委員蔡宇等委員林一金等分辨你去臺灣地區到地區人民關係條例交內政委員會審查二十五行政案情審議貨物稅條例交財政委員會審查二十六至一七一國防部外交部退補會部工中研院司法院國安會人事總署工程會速發部交通部經濟部等含為預算決議事項交相關委員會處理"},{"start":2161.108,"end":2181.555,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提議整列172至176臺灣民眾黨黨團理據因應國際情勢衝擊強化經濟社會任性特別條例交經濟財政兩委員會審查國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例交司法的法制內政兩委員會審查公寓大廈管理條例國家安全法交內政委員會審查刑事訴訟法交司法的法制委員會審查諮詢事項宣讀完畢"},{"start":2186.401,"end":2194.106,"text":"好現在請登記委員發言第一位請林委員月勤發言我們在林委員月勤發言結束的時候截止發言登記針對第十一屆第三會起第十一次會議議程報告事項質詢事項建起照議事日程草案及甄列報告事項通過提案人民主進步黨"},{"start":2221.345,"end":2224.641,"text":"好 接下來我們請登記第二位 請翁委員小林發言"},{"start":2233.103,"end":2262.105,"text":"本院國民黨黨團針對第11屆第三會期第11次會議議事日程草案除了增列報告事項第9案至第24案建議暫緩列案外其餘報告事項質詢事項均照議事日程草案及各黨團增列報告事項通過是否有當敬請公決好這是有關兩岸人民關係條例的部分"},{"start":2264.943,"end":2293.244,"text":"好現在委員登記委員已經發言完畢我們現在就進行處理了那我們先提案先處理請問針對林月琴委員的提案有異議好有異議的話我們就進行表決現在請清點在場人數好現在贊成林委員月琴提案的請舉手"},{"start":2300.933,"end":2321.474,"text":"好反對者請舉手好表決結果在場18人贊成者8人反對者10人這個贊成者少數不通過那"},{"start":2322.847,"end":2333.777,"text":"接下來我們繼續處理這個翁委員小林的提案就是增列第9次24案暫緩列案請問對於這個翁委員小林提案有異議有異議我們來進行表決請清點在場人數現在贊成翁委員小林提案的請舉手"},{"start":2354.024,"end":2377.657,"text":"來反對翁委員小林提案的請舉手好表決結果在場18人贊成者10人反對者8人贊成者多數通過那我們報告事項修正通過執行事項通過接下來我們請宣讀討論事項"},{"start":2380.906,"end":2407.884,"text":"討論事項一 律師法修正草案二 道路交通管理處罰條例修正草案三 修正電信管理業務規費修非標準第14條條文案四 國營台灣鐵路股份永限公司設置條例修正草案五 海關進口稅則修正草案六 加值型及非加值型營業稅法修正草案七 納稅者權利保護法修正草案八 電業法修正草案九 殯葬管理條例修正草案十 災害防救法修正草案"},{"start":2409.165,"end":2434.965,"text":"11.國家住宅及都市更新中心114年度預算數案12.財團法人228事件紀念基金會等8家財團法人114年度預算數案13.財團法人原住民族文化事業基金會及財團法人原住民族語言研究發展基金會114年度預算數案14.財團法人海峽交流基金會114年度預算數案15.財團法人台港經濟文化合作策進會114年度預算數案16.財團法人客家公共傳播基金會114年度預算數案"},{"start":2436.866,"end":2462.343,"text":"十七 中華民國一百一十四年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算及總計表營業及分業部分審查總報告案十八 本院國民黨黨團建請院會作成決議請促邀請行政院院長率同國防部部長及相關部會首長藉由國防軍備預算提高為GDP百分之十對我國可能造成的影響進行專案報告請供決案十九 本院台灣民眾黨黨團建請院會作成決議對行政院院長朱鎔泰藐視國會之行為提出最嚴厲之譴責請供決案宣導完畢"},{"start":2467.469,"end":2475.264,"text":"好現在請登記人發言首先請登記第一位的林委員月勤發言我們一樣在林委員月勤發言結束的時候截止發言登記"},{"start":2485.044,"end":2502.001,"text":"針對第11屆第三會期第11次會議議程討論事項建請甄烈下表一案是否有當敬請公允提案人民主進步黨那議案內容請議事人員宣讀好我們現在請議事人員代言宣讀"},{"start":2503.715,"end":2524.185,"text":"本院民主金不黨立法院黨團針對第十一屆第三會期第十一次會議議程討論事項建請甄烈下表一案是否有當進行公決一本院民進黨黨團建請院會將韓國瑜等六十二位立法委員全數移送紀律委員會請公決案宣讀完畢好接下來我們請登記第二位翁委員小林發言"},{"start":2531.645,"end":2542.17,"text":"本院國民黨黨團針對第11屆第三會期第11次會議是日程草案討論事項提議增列33案如下列表是否有當近期公決好那我們請議事人員待會宣讀"},{"start":2551.209,"end":2579.265,"text":"本院國民黨黨團針對第十一屆第三會期第十一次會議議程討論事項提議僅限列三十三案如下列表是否有當進行公決一委員徐宇貞等拟據公投提案你是否同意政府應避免戰爭不讓臺灣變成實施軍事戒嚴清廉上令且膠原被毀的烏克蘭請公決案二委員吳宗憲等拟據公投提案您是否同意各級法院回庭法官判處死刑不需一次決製政策請公決案"},{"start":2580.485,"end":2599.671,"text":"3.本院民进党党团针对第十届第三会议第七次会议报告事项第四案院会所作决定提出复议请供决案4.合资反应器设施管制法修正草案5.青年日节日时事法草案6.中华民国刑法修正草案7.中央政府前瞻基础建设计划第五期特别预算案"},{"start":2600.751,"end":2602.693,"text":"8.預算法 查案9."},{"start":2602.693,"end":2605.715,"text":"軍人保險條例 修正查案10."},{"start":2605.715,"end":2608.356,"text":"國軍退出與官兵輔導條例 查案11."},{"start":2608.356,"end":2610.898,"text":"軍人待遇條例 修正查案12."},{"start":2610.898,"end":2613.179,"text":"軍人待遇條例 修正查案13."},{"start":2613.179,"end":2615.941,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法 修正查案14."},{"start":2615.941,"end":2618.143,"text":"律師法 修正查案15."},{"start":2618.143,"end":2621.005,"text":"道路交通管理處罰條例 修正查案16."},{"start":2621.005,"end":2623.606,"text":"修正電信管理業務規配收費標準第14條條文案"},{"start":2625.968,"end":2648.887,"text":"17.國營台灣鐵路股份有限公司設置條例修正草案18.海關經營口稅者修正草案19.加值型及非加值型營業稅法修正草案20.納稅者權利保護法修正草案21.電業法修正草案22.殯葬管理條例修正草案23.災害防救法修正草案24.國家住宅及都市更新中心110年度預算書案"},{"start":2649.648,"end":2666.076,"text":"二五 財團法人228事件紀念基金會等8家財團法人114年度預算書案二六 財團法人嚴重民族文化事業基金會及財團法人嚴重民族語言研究發展基金會114年度預算書案二七 財團法人海峽加油基金會114年度預算書案"},{"start":2666.696,"end":2683.799,"text":"二八 財團法人台港經濟文化策經營會114年度預算書案二九 財團法人客家公共傳播基金會114年度預算書案三十 中華民國110年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算及正系表營業及非營業部分審查總報告案三一"},{"start":2684.56,"end":2711.037,"text":"本院國民黨黨團建請院會作成決議迅速邀請行政院院長率同國防部部長及相關部會首長就國防軍備預算提高GDP10%對我國可能造成的影響作案報告 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卓院長好4月25日經濟指導總執行"},{"start":1854.758,"end":1861.609,"text":"我有問你,脫中入美,你講要面向平壤,要背對著台灣海峽,"},{"start":1863.274,"end":1891.856,"text":"要告訴中國政府我們不走回頭路我們不走冤枉路我們不走臭的路再來你說要把台北城當為首都那時你回答不置可恍我再請教一下這個是不是要準備台灣獨立的一個宣告尤其從你昨天場裡面講出來的顯示特別重要你是不是在鋪陳這個"},{"start":1893.66,"end":1897.947,"text":"台北當然是中華民國台灣的首都這個沒有錯第二點我們的市場"},{"start":1902.523,"end":1925.043,"text":"看中國看太久我們必須轉向面向海洋走向世界你等於意思要跟中國所有的包括經濟交流要斷絕來往的意思在我們的經濟要走向全世界不能太依賴一個國家這裡面牽涉到我第二個問題也比較現代化的問題今天有很多報紙說賴總統五二年就職一週年"},{"start":1928.266,"end":1945.912,"text":"我們的內閣要換成戰鬥內閣要找會有論事的官員準備為大罷免啟動那大內閣會不會換你都覺得前面這一段我們的內閣是在每個自己的工作崗位上"},{"start":1946.912,"end":1973.297,"text":"去做競爭的你現在的內閣叫做什麼內閣告訴我才曉得行動創新內閣我們是以行動來現在以後戰鬥內閣跟你現在的內閣有什麼差別哪一個跟你現在的內閣未來報紙在寫說你們要組成戰鬥內閣準備要大連案好好的執政黨要發威一下要把在野黨的國會議員全部殲滅掉"},{"start":1976.34,"end":1977.967,"text":"我可以跟你說一件事 我也覺得很奇怪"},{"start":1979.915,"end":2008.476,"text":"在這裡面有幾個70歲以上的國會的立法委員身兼百戰每一個人都當過6、7、8屆的一個立法委員我講是好壞 今天要來罷免你們罷免就要硬到這樣嘛所以我說你們真的要檢討一下要怎麼做前幾個一年 新的才有這麼多新的一年沒有必要做 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我說苗栗的牧利值得中央支持我常常要講這個問題我們95年到112年苗栗為中央竄稅4147億中央給我們補資才2022億我們苗栗縣倒退給中央是2120億"},{"start":2063.686,"end":2073.55,"text":"加育縣跟屏東縣都是三級縣市的財政他們95年加育縣963億中央補賦給他2430億他們給他一村西班牙才幾億屏東縣2627億交給中央中央補賦給他3589億他們可以"},{"start":2089.158,"end":2097.505,"text":"我每次都在這個執行台都拜託院長、部長我們的交通建設要好好給我們加油我們是邊緣網這時候是母女的孩子沒有糖吃所以我特別跟你拜託"},{"start":2111.24,"end":2128.464,"text":"我今天不管財政收支發昏了未來怎麼做但是我把苗栗的實況給你苗栗的負債五百億這邊你再分一下兩千多億都沒有負債我們有努力有為地方建設地方繁榮發財稅收一直在增加"},{"start":2132.389,"end":2141.681,"text":"你的回饋反而越低啊這個太不公平了不管未來怎麼樣我仍然希望左院長你繼續留任多多照顧苗玉仙"},{"start":2143.117,"end":2163.155,"text":"第二個問題我用大西谷計畫我希望行政院要出來協調因為我們有兩個科學園區一個產業園區但是我們兩個科學園區大概開發出來有350公頃可用之地但是國科會只要用150公頃但是這200公頃"},{"start":2166.778,"end":2189.649,"text":"國科會說這個開挖不是我認的國化會是上級指導的單位我說這個拜託今天國民司長也沒有來他當過國化會國民司長在你坐在那裡我沒注意看到你現在當民司長說你幫我協調一下你授權給他協調一下好不好院長"},{"start":2191.294,"end":2220.257,"text":"不過我不知道要怎麼來開發 要怎麼來經營這對我們苗栗縣未來的發展太重要了我今天來講是 拜託你我們的港執委 泰內行 國民司長所有人來幫我協調這件事情好不好跟委員報告兩件事 第一個行政院對苗栗不是善意 是應該有的基本態度我們希望均衡地方 大家都同樣的起來所以在我設想的這個財政收支法如果照行政院的構想 會讓弱"},{"start":2221.358,"end":2246.791,"text":"財政弱的向現世得到更多而不是像現在齊頭式的那第二件這個桃竹苗大細股可以說是在520之後行政院第一個核定的六大產業生活區所以我們會照這個速度來持續的往前推進速度我沒有主管機關啦我事情不會做的啦所以我特別請國民市長來幫我們協調一下如果是六大區域這個產業生活區的話它的規劃機關是國發會的但落到目的世界主管機關它就會不一樣"},{"start":2250.993,"end":2279.125,"text":"我很謝謝你重大計畫由你手裡合整但是我苗栗縣碰到困難我只拜託國民司長來協調國科會省政府會跟苗栗縣政府各個部位來協調誰當主管機關我才有辦法投中大西部計畫完成賴總統及你們合定左院長你合定好不好阿卓那個國民司長你們覺得要求求"},{"start":2280.385,"end":2291.172,"text":"你一定說好 要給我辦一下 跟他合調一下好不好再來我們交通部的陳部長你從市議院執行到交通部長我走起來"},{"start":2292.113,"end":2318.628,"text":"我當時還以為不怎麼樣但是你到苗栗會刊的時候我發覺你回答任何問題非常成本非常實在我還很值得肯定我相信你經過歷練了以後你將來必有大用的但是你竟然會刊你都答應了你要給我做出來看你信用不信用就看在這裡就是"},{"start":2320.297,"end":2336.044,"text":"黃磊交流道你說要核定這個拜託我就不再多講了我希望人類能把這幾個重大的建設推動完成我就可以功成身退我就功德圓滿我不曉得要用哪一個這個你不答應喔第二個"},{"start":2339.185,"end":2368.303,"text":"西吳溪的合體公共西吳鄉只有五千多人最近兩年前才有一個那個7-11才在那邊開他要發展我已經推動三期的合體公共第四期的合體公共現在在可全線評估 好啊拜託一度你說你很照顧苗栗 關心苗栗我也謝謝你你下來我請你吃客家菜這條板他完成"},{"start":2368.723,"end":2388.143,"text":"照顧邊鄉的地區好不好再來西吳鄉為什麼選票雖然很少但是這個地方沒有發展我覺得我要改進這個地方環境就是西吳區人外道路安城北日南村便利遊客與鄉親這個屬於高工級的"},{"start":2390.882,"end":2401,"text":"那高工期裡面我希望特別注意我相信現在用很多工法可以把地方改變出來當然有少許阻力你一站不動"},{"start":2403.073,"end":2426.359,"text":"你未來是很有前途的,我來講這個要好好幫忙完成再來,我講得很快,因為再來,後龍好望角,那天你會館沒有到現場但是當地的鄉鎮長、議員、代表、里長一直拜託你,好望角這個觀光風景區非常的漂亮、非常的好"},{"start":2428.1,"end":2453.515,"text":"這兩條馬路一開跟廣天宮是結合在一起這兩個距離走路的話不到30分鐘可以增加很多遊覽的人口卓院長你那麼忙你還沒到苗栗我記得一次下次來多停留一下來看這個美好的地方你看完說不一定你不想當行政院長也不一定好山好水我請部長跟委員我們來規劃好不好再來"},{"start":2458.049,"end":2471.715,"text":"就是台13線銅鑼鄉到山陸火車站拓寬解開地方交通瓶頸台13線唯一沒有四線道只有這一段但是到四區裡面我們曉得會遇到很多指令"},{"start":2473.052,"end":2500.573,"text":"我們陳部長說大家要協助承諾也要馬上進行這個一定要把它完成那裡面那一段我不勉強因為在市區裡面你再拓寬那裏的兵越來越多我再跟他們討論一個辦法出來好不好左院長這樣給你一個印象你知道說要怎麼做的事情這幾天起來是很重要的我不隨便提問題但是我提問題是直接進入核心再來"},{"start":2501.516,"end":2528.634,"text":"通宵產業生命之路通宵正直通銅鑼科學園區這兩個鄉鎮是隔離的那銅鑼現在一直在發展它隔壁的通宵人口一直在流失如果能開一條道路從銅鑼科學園區接鄰的通宵鎮我相信對通宵鎮的就業繁榮地方發展非常重要"},{"start":2530.394,"end":2557.987,"text":"這條你不去看我會再排一次卓院長有興趣到苗栗你都來把這路一開你們的票數越多我的票數也應該不會少我們兩個共盟齊力因為這個是你們的地盤不是我的地盤好不好這條很重要你可能看出來寫出來你覺得說這個好像很簡單其實每一條都是有它的功用存在"},{"start":2559.892,"end":2579.475,"text":"再來這個Railbike,3億的話,現在是台灣最紅了,國際遊覽客很多。張詞是不同意,報告院長,是我找鐵路局去協調工夫,還有觀光局協調溝通,把它完成下來。不曉得,噢,人山人海。"},{"start":2580.516,"end":2604.468,"text":"人潮非常多,我們希望能跟台中不要為了選舉這樣,地方這樣結合起來,這樣變得有難。你只要完成,說是卓院長的時代完成了,陳部長您的時代完成了,你只要談出來,不要去計較地方各種,他做還是我做的,誰做都一樣,我永遠都保持這樣的心。"},{"start":2605.749,"end":2629.049,"text":"所以這一條連接到台中、台安到台中尤其陳部長在台中人你這個把客戶下來不要分黨派也沒有誰做的那一段真的非常漂亮左院長你去走一趟你會喜歡苗栗你會幫忙苗栗好不好好再來"},{"start":2631.004,"end":2658.672,"text":"台61縣縣港服務區中央地方共同民旅這是在西濱台61縣一個非常漂亮的地方我爭取了同意了以後但是到現在在推展容纏有困難那裡的漁港陳部長你是在雞皮疙瘩你很了解這裡這個你下來來看一下解他這個人潮這個漁港都很漂亮都很好"},{"start":2659.964,"end":2681.116,"text":"真的都是很漂亮 你一來看你大概曉得了因為時間的關係 我大概就這樣再來 最美服務區 日落大道 喔那個報告院長 部長 那個整個寫在海景的時候你不小心就會發生錯誤 太漂亮了但是這個地方面積太小 應該再放大範圍"},{"start":2684.878,"end":2701.813,"text":"在西濱快速道路在白沙屯的隔壁新埔的地方非常漂亮看到好尤其在落日大灶他今天的那個太陽沒有照那個夕陽西下沒有照出來很漂亮很多人在那一邊"},{"start":2703.278,"end":2728.151,"text":"這個我麻煩土地的問題偶爾會請苗栗縣政府去解決你將會有補助給我們補助者會變成吸收景觀非常很多人在那邊再來做觀光休閒好不好這樣我說在調服嗎 說到盡頭希望苗栗縣未來不僅保持原來的傳統的智慧農業還有客鄉的文化我們更希望朝科技層整個"},{"start":2729.807,"end":2749.317,"text":"大溪谷的整體建設來共同發展所以我這點要再感謝你再說大溪谷計畫裡面自然後融有一個產業科技延期再來的統銷 再來的萬利你記得你們執政黨在這海線的選票永遠是高出了很多"},{"start":2761.291,"end":2768.596,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員好 謝謝左院長下一位請黃建斌委員質詢"},{"start":2787.508,"end":2790.511,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請卓榮泰卓院長請卓院長備詢公務員好"},{"start":2801.363,"end":2823.252,"text":"院長早安 院長院長記得上次在我們經濟組總質詢的時候本席有跟您表達善意就是對於去年的這個風災本席向中央爭取台東農產全品項的這個災損救助還有旅宿業者的店家動漲後來行政院也確實聽見我們地方的聲音我想這是行政院跟立法委員之間一個非常理想的互動的方式"},{"start":2824.012,"end":2848.56,"text":"那這一次本席在交通組總質詢一開始想要先跟院長分享一首詩做一個善意的引言這邊也分享給所有我們中央部會的首長這首詩是余光忠先生所寫的《台東》本席讀其中的幾段給院長聽城市比台北是矮一點天比台北卻高得多燈比台北是淡一點心比台北卻亮得多"},{"start":2849.46,"end":2864.591,"text":"人比西岸是西一點 山比西岸勸密得多港比西岸是小一點 海比西岸卻大得多報紙送到是晚一點 太陽起來卻早得多無論地球怎麼轉 台東永遠在前面"},{"start":2865.814,"end":2894.786,"text":"我想這首詩是對台東人來說感觸特別的深厚雖然台東比較遠人比較少不過台東擁有全台灣最美麗的海岸線我想這裡的人也非常的緩解溫暖最重要的是台東人的和善絕對不代表台東人好起伏那對本席而言這首詩的最後兩句就是無論地球怎麼轉台東永遠在前面這就是我從政的初衷只要是為了台東好的事情我一定全力以赴"},{"start":2895.646,"end":2905.893,"text":"我也不怕得罪任何人這也是先前東海岸風電開發案本席一再要求院長跟各部會首長一定要全力阻止跟嚴審因為我絕對不允許"},{"start":2909.025,"end":2936.032,"text":"未經公司的開發案破壞我們台東美麗的環境我們的家園也絕對不允許任何外力破壞台東這片團結善良的家園那今天質詢的一開始本席要先把握機會跟院長反映一件台東重要的時事就是現在是我們鬼頭島的這個漁訓期那但是有很多漁民朋友都跟我反映那國防部公告在五月份在台東屏東一帶的外海有許多這個實彈射擊的演習"},{"start":2936.892,"end":2963.087,"text":"那演習期間因為海域的管制 漁民沒有辦法出海捕魚那這對當地漁民是一個很大的衝擊原來整條都有經營能蓋這個漁訊期就是4月到6月還有9月到11月那其中又以4月到6月的漁獲量最多但光是5月受到演習影響的時間就恐怕高達半個月之久那本席要表達的是說國防自主能力是捍衛國家安全的重要基礎本席絕對支持"},{"start":2964.068,"end":2985.617,"text":"但是這幾年密集的在我們東部海域進行的這個實彈射擊造成漁民生氣很大很大的影響我們例如在2022年光是一到五月中科院跟國軍在台東外海射擊演訓的時間就超過了五十天這引發地方劇烈的反彈那國防部後來也承諾說未來演習會避開漁訓期"},{"start":2987.378,"end":3010.336,"text":"那延後到六月到七月那同時也說會編列這個敦親募領的基金那但是為什麼現在漁民很懷疑說有時候你國防部陣還要選二五個月份魚還在出生來這裡延伸這很多漁民會認為國防部說話不算話那另外還有多漁民反映說國防部所謂的這個基金漁民根本拿不到這個實質的補貼啦所以在這裡本縣要跟漁民來表達的是說我們的漁民絕對管理配合辦的國防"},{"start":3016.601,"end":3037.786,"text":"但是國家也要給漁民條活路所以因此我要請院長財事請國防部務必遵守當時的承諾超延的時間避開漁訊期才不會衝擊我們當地的這個產業那如果對於產業造成的衝擊也必須要給予受影響的這個從業人員必要的補貼請問院長是不是可以做得到"},{"start":3038.586,"end":3064.709,"text":"首先謝謝委員一開始針對國家安全國防需求的支持這我們的心情都一樣第二就是國防部他一定有整年度的所謂演習各種的規劃那目前很多的規劃也要因應對岸時常對我們時不時有計劃沒計劃有公告沒公告定期不定期的各種演訓但是我承諾我會跟國防部去了解跟要求"},{"start":3065.239,"end":3078.612,"text":"在保護漁民的漁訓期的過程當中應該事先做好整年的規劃事中要做好跟漁民的溝通事後有任何的補償、賠償的問題一定要確實落實"},{"start":3081.174,"end":3093.498,"text":"謝謝院長 因為其實真的是漁民是很疑惑是說東西都說好了 你就知道後悔四月到六月是魚要大蒸的時候 你就選擇來演釋我會請郭先生去檢討這個事情 謝謝院長接下來本席來跟針對台中重大的交通跟公共議題來跟院長還有部長來進行討論"},{"start":3101.781,"end":3130.694,"text":"首先本席有看到台鐵宣布配合小清水溪的這個橋改建的工程完工樹林到台東之間要增加增開兩班這個支強號的列車那東部的鐵路量能提升當然是好事情但關鍵的是小清水溪橋就是因為先前颱風被土石流沖斷所以才需要進一步改建由此可見我們東部的鐵路非常非常的脆弱而現在所謂的增加班次其實也只是逐步恢復到過去的這個量能"},{"start":3131.474,"end":3148.507,"text":"因為是現在這個增加的這兩班都是中午時間才發車喔這對我們台東居民這個通勤啊就醫工作需求其實幫助其實是有限喔那其實除了到台北之外台東到高雄的這個網板列車也是相新急迫的這個需求那經常因為"},{"start":3149.878,"end":3171.425,"text":"要到高雄就診或是工作因為我們早班的車太少導致民眾必須提前一天去高雄或者又因為晚班的車趕不上需要多留一天在高雄隔天再去醫院就醫這樣一來一往會增加一到兩天的住宿費的負擔這是非常沉重的一個負擔一直本起具體的要求"},{"start":3172.165,"end":3198.625,"text":"增加我們台東往返高雄的這個清晨與深夜的班次我想這有助於民眾到高雄就醫或是工作能夠當日往返降低我們交通的時間跟成本也降低衍生的這個住宿的成本強化我們醫療就醫就診交通的這個可靜性也安排時間讓安排時間也更有具有彈性性讓我們照顧我們台東人這個省的正義請問部長這邊是不是可以承諾來研議這個部分"},{"start":3199.525,"end":3220.044,"text":"報告委員這個部分確實對台東的鄉親來說其實往南走到高雄是比較近的不管是就醫或就學那這個部分需求確實在那我們會來研議這個班次看怎麼調整不過現在最關鍵的其實是南回的整個路線的改善因為很多的路段目前是單軌委員應該非常清楚因為是單軌所以它這個"},{"start":3222.287,"end":3233.427,"text":"車輛的數目沒有辦法大幅的來提升所以南回的軌道的建設我們一樣會往前推進那另外委員剛剛所交代的就是說車次的調整我們來想辦法"},{"start":3234.911,"end":3256.107,"text":"謝謝部長的這個承諾願意來研議這件事情那接下來我們就是談到台鐵就是談我們台鐵票價的部分而上次在總質詢的時候院長也有承諾本席說會請交通部盡快的來研議我們華東專屬優惠票價的部分那在隔週交通委員會的時候陳部長也有承諾本席五月底之前會提出嘛"},{"start":3256.667,"end":3270.057,"text":"那目前從我們中央社的這個街頭的資訊來看中央部規劃的方案仍然是只有會員制點數加倍那本席簡單的換算一下按照現在目前我們台鐵會員折抵的方式是每消費50元累積1點"},{"start":3273.683,"end":3291.177,"text":"兩點折一元就是說等於每消費一百塊才能折抵一元那就是一趴的回饋金那你即便未來花東加倍也就只有兩趴的回饋但問題是這一次的票價調整台北到台東之前還有丹唐就漲了一百五十三元來回就是三百零六元"},{"start":3291.917,"end":3314.537,"text":"那如果依照我們現行台鐵規劃的花東優惠方案,有兩個嚴重的問題,第一個就是說,用台北到台東的來回自強號來換算,你消費金額大概只能折18.7元,你用19塊去算就好了,跟你來回票價調漲306塊來比起來真的是杯水車薪,第二個其實很多長者根本不會使用智慧型手機,"},{"start":3315.858,"end":3344.484,"text":"這樣要怎麼去累積點數甚至去折扣這個票價這是本席發現這兩個問題因此從目前台鐵的這個方案來看所謂的優惠恐怕讓花東的居民是無感那也恐怕看得到吃不到那請問院長你覺得目前這樣的優惠方案難道對於東部交通若是低位而言是足夠的嗎部長詳細說明部長的方案報告委員您所聽到的加倍送不是只有一倍是好幾倍"},{"start":3345.891,"end":3372.388,"text":"你一百塊到一塊錢但是他好幾倍的狀況不會像你所說的只有百分之二不會這麼少這個是台鐵提出來的優惠方案我聽說聽到的加倍但那個倍不是一倍有可能是四倍可能是五倍因為行政院院長有特別交代說第一要對花東的鄉親要多一些優惠第二我們希望平日跟假日要有彈性所以我們平日的優惠又會更多"},{"start":3374.009,"end":3390.619,"text":"謝謝部長的說明部長其實我們在委員會已經討論過這件事還有第二個就是所謂連長者怎麼去使用這個部分都是還是要克服這個部分其實台鐵都有在研議如果到櫃台找我們的同仁他也會幫長者來服務這個會員的連長者沒有問題都可以克服的"},{"start":3391.92,"end":3408.247,"text":"院長,本席為什麼要不斷地爭取花東專屬票價的優惠跟折扣?就是因為你跟西部比起來,西部多元的大空交通工具比起來東部基本上就只有鐵路啦,不然就是昂貴的飛機票更關鍵的是東部的鐵路受到天災影響的敏感度非常高嘛"},{"start":3408.587,"end":3432.518,"text":"在安全性上你跟西部比遠遠不足嘛那現在你要用一樣的票價的方式來算我想這東部人不會接受啦這個就是本席為什麼一直提喔那因為我記得好幾個月前本席就呼籲中央說要用花東基金的專款專用的補貼方式給予花東居民的優惠票價那先前本席質詢國發會主委還有城市港部長的時候你們也認為這是可行的方向了吧"},{"start":3433.078,"end":3457.097,"text":"那甚至在前兩天連民進黨的委員都呼籲本席的說法認為應該用花東基金來補貼嘛那非常一樣我們交通部現在都還沒有任何具體的作為那本席其實有掌握到其實交通部內部確實有來討論這件事情花東基金給予票價的折扣是一個可行的方向但問題現在是聽說卡在系統來不及跟上我想這個說法本席都沒辦法接受"},{"start":3457.737,"end":3475.994,"text":"因為票價也是從二月就規劃要調漲那過去三個月呢難道沒有任何預先的這個配套的準備這部分我是請陳部長你必須要扛起責任勇於任事本席在這邊也提出兩個具體的要求請主委來採釋第一個交通部必須在台鐵新票價上路之前"},{"start":3476.594,"end":3501.613,"text":"規劃好花東優惠票價的方案並且要直接補貼或者是折扣而不是只有民眾無感的會員制點數優惠第二個 交通部必須立刻與國發會來開會討論有關花東基金補貼的事宜並進行提案申請然後作為未來穩定的裁員請院長回應而且也要請我們相關部會一週內把相關的資料提供到本席的辦公室 院長"},{"start":3502.789,"end":3527.402,"text":"謝謝委員 西部的交通選項比較多東部比較少所以我們當然是記憶這樣的一個利基點所以我也請交通部能夠對東部的鄉親做這些票價上面的另外的想法不要說委員 剛剛你如果委員所說只有2%不要說委員來你接受我也覺得不甚合理但是我所知道交通部現在在研擬的絕對不是這個方案給他們一點時間那麼這個一定會在6月"},{"start":3531.332,"end":3555.334,"text":"調價之前一定會把這個方案完全確定而且沒有所謂系統銜接的上銜接不上的問題一定要開始適用這個跟委員保證謝謝委員長也謝謝部長其實我們本席跟部長的互動其實都很好因為部長也真的夠了解到東部的交通的這個先天的不足的問題那這邊要請部長這邊盡快來演繹那另外講到的道路就是"},{"start":3556.195,"end":3584.694,"text":"交通才就是道路的問題那一條安全回家的路是台東是東部人數十年來最基本的要求花東快也是當年賴清德總統的競選承諾那就在去年本席跟黨黨立委的共同努力下立法院終於通過了組決議要求交通部儘速推動花東快速公路的興建但非常遺憾上一次我在交通委員會跟陳市長部長您討論花東快可行性評估進度的時候您竟然當面跟我說經濟效益確實"},{"start":3587.336,"end":3605.473,"text":"這不就是坐實了之前媒體所說的花東快被推薦的原因就是因為交通部認為經濟效益低嘛那部長的說法東部人絕對沒有辦法接受其實西部這麼多條的快速道路難道每一條的經濟效益都很高嗎更何況現在台中是連一條我連一條都沒有"},{"start":3607.005,"end":3624.477,"text":"因此這絕對不應該是政府的理由安全才是最重要的主席長 陳部長本席要很嚴肅的跟兩位表達生命的價值絕對不能用金錢來衡量花蓉花園對東部人的意義就是要挽救無價的生命這件事情不是政治議題這個是攸關數十萬東部鄉親生命"},{"start":3628.837,"end":3653.714,"text":"安全的民生議題請重要一定要正視不要再把台東當二等公民那現在台九縣一旦發生緊急醫療事件即便救護車全數的搶救也常常因為會錯過黃金救援時間造成太多這個無辜生命因為漫長的交通時間而失去那這就是為什麼台東人要這麼在意發動快我們說我們台東人的命要比我長"},{"start":3654.943,"end":3655.623,"text":"經濟效益的評估 當然是"},{"start":3673.502,"end":3695.643,"text":"其來有自啦但是我是覺得如果從一小段來看它的效益或許有限如果放大整個台灣你要看整個台灣形成一個有效的鐵道系統的話它不只是經濟效益對台灣整體的國家的運量是極然增加的所以我是希望交通部能夠持續的去研議這個事情謝謝院長的承諾 謝謝院長"},{"start":3697.384,"end":3709.157,"text":"那接下來在公共禮數部分,因為時間有限,我想之後再來跟我們院長跟部長謝謝黃委員,謝謝卓院長下一位請魯明哲委員質詢"},{"start":3747.95,"end":3751.752,"text":"喂謝謝主席有請我們行政院卓院長請卓院長備詢哎"},{"start":3760.865,"end":3787.728,"text":"院長雖然是交通組質詢但是因為國家重要的一個議題昨天這個在下午的時間我相信院長也有看到我們這個楊總裁中央銀行的楊總裁那個記者會真的是很多媒體跟學者的感覺你知道是什麼是啊不聽不害怕越聽越害怕"},{"start":3789.013,"end":3804.64,"text":"史上史詩集啊 史詩集皆八 皆八八答不出來 他是有什麼困難 難言之隱 你覺得所以你看那樣記者會表現如何 有沒有幫這個問題示疑 還讓大家有更多的疑問 你說說看楊總裁在對"},{"start":3807.782,"end":3829.26,"text":"整個國家財政貨幣的匯率上面是相當專業的那麼他所提出的書面的說明也非常清楚那至於說現場的反應那個可能牽涉到提問的過程當中他是不是第一時間沒有完全掌握到但是我是認為他的內容來看是足夠用專業來做評估的"},{"start":3830.541,"end":3848.742,"text":"我是覺得一般的民眾看到因為政府要跟民眾溝通跟業界溝通跟輿論溝通這種溝通的模式是不行的你書面報告是單項的你必須雙項是很好雙項之後你又沒有辦法去很坦然的示意這是給一般民眾的一個感覺那當然"},{"start":3852.196,"end":3871.663,"text":"這幾天 前幾天我們台美美金的匯率史詩級的飆升對台域來說史詩級的飆升當然對個人的一個部分的理財甚至觀光有部分的民眾他是正面看待但就國家行政院"},{"start":3872.463,"end":3897.099,"text":"立法院對國家以出口為導向出口是我們競爭力降低的一個部分我們必須要審慎去面對這樣的一個問題因為不然這個史詩級的飆升真的在控制不好第二個詩會變成詩痕遍野出口的一個產業IT的產業甚至我們受險大部分於美金避險的這個邏輯會變成另外一種史詩級"},{"start":3902.544,"end":3904.517,"text":"我覺得行政院做好沒有 做好準備沒有啊"},{"start":3906.479,"end":3933.613,"text":"就密切注意那更往前走我們是認為在整個關稅談判的過程當中雖然都沒有觸及到所謂匯率的問題但是我們一直在關心整個世界匯率的變化所以我也希望這個變化能夠迅速的穩定下來那穩定下來最重要的當然是央行長期就穩定貨幣的政策以及他手上所了解的狀況但很重要的是我希望產業界跟國人我們現在能夠大家"},{"start":3934.613,"end":3956.648,"text":"還是要深具信心台灣的基本體質 財政狀況是好的院長 因為這個產業界我特別最近接到很多電話我也跟一些以出口為導向的一個產業聯絡其實現在是真的非常非常的憂心而且實際發生的已經哀鴻遍野最主要問題這次的升值之前"},{"start":3957.549,"end":3975.335,"text":"就最近的兩年兩個月112年2月2號也測試到29有測試到這兩年前的市有嘛因為匯率升升降降其實這個就是市場的一個機制為主啊所以說這樣有時候升本來大家不意外的可是"},{"start":3976.055,"end":3999.422,"text":"你花了兩年的時間兩年的慢慢走讓產業有調整每次的訂單他看到匯率的走勢相對的穩定他可以做這個生意獲得相對的一個這個出口的一個利潤花了兩年時間到三十二、三十三左右請問說真的黑色五月就五月就這幾天"},{"start":4000.642,"end":4023.337,"text":"就這幾天 尤其五月三號跟五月五號連兩天啊快一塊嘛 九毛這兩天就快兩美元的這個部分最主要現在擔心的不是調這個什麼時候會降到多少最主要是這麼短的時間讓人家沒有辦法應變然後呢 昨天這個總裁終於"},{"start":4025.945,"end":4038.098,"text":"講出一些讓我們他的良心話他覺得是事實嘛因為之前他一直記者會一直閉談啊原來他講的是什麼意思你聽得懂嗎呼籲啊 異常"},{"start":4039.147,"end":4055.14,"text":"的狀況到此為止你跟誰講跟外資那些禿鷹嗎他就表示發現有異常但是這三天這過去兩三天他居然沒有去救市不是干預不是干預你要去救"},{"start":4056.021,"end":4085.174,"text":"股市我們有在救會市遇到這麼大的一個問題的時候居然他昨天說他有發現有異常異常到此為止簡單來講他講異常就是如果不管外資喔外資喔搞不好有真外資假外資喔搞不好有國人繞一圈產業繞一圈進來的喔外資熱錢進來的居然有掠奪式有突映式的資金的時候在這幾天我們的總裁已經發現了我已經發現了這樣的救市"},{"start":4086.431,"end":4087.972,"text":"所以因為我們長期以來沒有採取干預政策"},{"start":4105.56,"end":4126.138,"text":"台灣一直沒有被列為操縱匯率的國家我們是一般的觀察名單而已就因為這樣的延續這樣的慣例下來所以央行自然在比較合於規定的情況底下對匯市做它穩定的措施但是前兩天經過之後難免會發現有些外資進出的時間跟量"},{"start":4127.666,"end":4143.37,"text":"次數都有一些值得觀察的時候所以今天早上我也講了台灣不是操縱匯率的國家但是我們也絕不允許呼應來破壞影響操縱台灣的匯市如果有任何不法的狀況一旦發生絕對要立刻有效的處理"},{"start":4144.458,"end":4162.304,"text":"我是覺得這個東西要應該更積極的一個作為啦因為我們出口產業甚至有很多這個以美元做避險的一個產業真的受影響是非常大如果在全球的一個匯率做異常管理這個部分史詩級的就是單日"},{"start":4163.044,"end":4186.04,"text":"跳升或者降已經到了過去大概三四十年最高的一個比率如果就全球來檢驗一定是這個有異常嘛那這個異常會不會大家變成是這個相關的一些名單這個部分我覺得央行要注意你們也要注意那第三個問題是產業界的你知道產業界在關稅問題"},{"start":4189.895,"end":4209.721,"text":"美國關稅的問題正在處理副院長帶隊去我們期待蠻深的不然我跟你講全台灣這個出口產業真的是做不下去這個部分我覺得不管哪個黨派要有共識你這個東西一定要為台灣爭取最大的一個利益讓我們的產業能夠活下去這個是我個人絕對這樣去認為可是現在這個出口的一個產業"},{"start":4213.462,"end":4231.343,"text":"坦白講第一把刀還沒卸下來就看談判的一個結果假設90天希望有好的結果讓我們出口產業能夠在世界的一個出口的競賽能夠生存那結果現在匯市匯率這幾天坦白講很多在談"},{"start":4232.384,"end":4250.154,"text":"正好以美金 現在因為世界貿易都息以美金做談好的訂單有時候幾個月要交貨 我的天啊它現在真的是遇到非常麻煩的問題等於對他們來講第一把刀還沒有拔出來第二把刀就插進去那我現在要請教你啊我不知道你有沒有預測啊明天正好是5月7號"},{"start":4251.415,"end":4271.506,"text":"當然美國總統川普講的話現在唯一不變的就是一直在變所以他講5月7號會宣布其實我也不太確定可是5月7號就美國時間搞不好就非常快了他說5月7號對於我們台灣出口IT產業的第三把刀如果宣布就是對於我們的晶片"},{"start":4272.867,"end":4285.082,"text":"對於晶片 對於我們IT產業這非常重要要開始宣布一個特殊的關稅第一個 你有沒有掌握這樣的一個情報第二個咧 如果有不要講日期 你覺得大概幅度是多少"},{"start":4285.916,"end":4305.525,"text":"好 鄭麗君副院長跟臺灣辦公室楊貞妮政委非常辛苦的完整的跟美國正式面對面的瘦傷他們帶回來的消息是足以讓我們覺得說往下一步走是一個好的開始至於明天5月7號我們再度的向外界說明這是一個美國廣對世界所有其他國家"},{"start":4306.045,"end":4331.061,"text":"希望大家提出一個對232條款的公眾說明書他們再來做討論而不是一個具體的談判的時間點那我方也備妥了這個意見書會依照我們備妥的方案當中針對ICT產業半導體這個產業如何保障我國產業的安定穩定跟繼續的高科技領導我們會往這個方向去爭取國家最大的利益所以你的團隊有預設嗎"},{"start":4332.295,"end":4349.991,"text":"因為不要每次我們都 人家宣布了你再講說當時我們預測就你有沒有預測啦 講真的有沒有預測 還是不方便講沒關係但有沒有預測我們有評估跟各種射算有評估就是等他宣布之後你才可以宣布我覺得他宣布沒有那麼快我們還要進行詳細的評估"},{"start":4351.414,"end":4367.442,"text":"我覺得你們要更慎重去注意我們尤其在出口產業IT這部分如果第三把刀就在五月這個項群再插進來的時候你要遇到非常非常多的一個問題必須解決最後一個請交通部部長部長我請教一下你邊走我邊問就請問一下這一次因為交通部"},{"start":4379.278,"end":4401.334,"text":"未來有很多包括美國車 每年進口怎麼能夠只有七十幾台啊他們肯定變成非關稅的貿易障礙你們也都知道啦那這個的部分你們有沒有把這個題庫相關的做法去交給談判代你們自己在行政院開過會這些談判代表從副院長他們應該這個題庫相關的處理機制有沒有提供"},{"start":4402.293,"end":4414.353,"text":"報告委員我們跟行政院有開過數次的會議包含我在內包含次長在內還有相關的單位跟行政院開過數次的會議所以所有的幕僚作業該提供的資訊跟資料我們都有提供"},{"start":4415.25,"end":4432.423,"text":"好的 有提供那這次交通部有派誰參加這個關稅談判的一個代表部長 次長 部長在嘛 肯定沒有 有沒有但是你們意見都已經在內部討論了嘛 對不對好啦 我今天要跟主委長建議拜託啦 央行不要再這樣講"},{"start":4433.575,"end":4462.131,"text":"不要再講了我們央行沒有參與沒有去代表參與去美國代表貿易談判 當然沒有啊部長也在這邊 交通部沒有一個去啊難道就代表我們交通部沒有任何的一個相關的意見帶去當然不是 他們在國內開了N次會央行一樣對於可能美債外匯存體相關的一個匯率要準備的方案嘛你自己去不去談 跟你的意見有沒有去"},{"start":4463.322,"end":4484.52,"text":"我覺得不要再講我個人沒有站在美國的現場那不代表你交通部或者央行你們的意見不要再用這個作為解釋啦這是我跟這個部長跟院長的建議真的意思是說這次談判沒有涉及匯率的問題他的原意應該是在這裡啦"},{"start":4485.359,"end":4505.977,"text":"對我知道可是你不要跟我講說代表代表團這麼專業代表行政院代表我們國家過去然後如果美國談到任何的美債外匯存體或者匯率的問題我們是講抱歉我沒有這個意見不可能啊如果你這樣講我就覺得哇天啊那什麼叫完全的準備了那我接下來談一些感悟的問題來首先"},{"start":4511.172,"end":4537.595,"text":"我們也要謝謝這個院長你上任不到一個月就有宣誓了就跟毒品宣戰而且這個花總共有四年時間投入一百五十億來跟毒品宣戰我覺得這是很重要的而且有六大守護神我現在已經寫在上面就是檢警調檢警調等於相關的一個單位那這個的部分"},{"start":4538.271,"end":4567.418,"text":"我覺得像檢警調很多第一個要靠現報那當然剩下的部分就是已經毒品相關已經分散出去了他去調查中間在某一個KTV或者某一個party或者有一個場域然後去抓到其實這都是最尾端的那會忙死人啊所以我們覺得在台灣毒品的一個源頭管理是非常非常重要的以台灣來說我們的源頭就在港口"},{"start":4568.444,"end":4589.879,"text":"空港海港這港口這個管制是非常非常重要我們看到過去幾年在空港的嚴謹度對於人對於人所帶的物品對於相關的一些貨他們查緝的不敢說都查得到了但是我感覺比較嚴謹那現在這個你感覺海港狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":4591.089,"end":4605.098,"text":"所以我們六大守護這個反炸的 反毒的除了檢警掉線就是有海巡跟官務就是委員所說的空港跟海港那這個部長港務公司有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":4606.284,"end":4623.453,"text":"怎麼樣去整合這六個單位就你所知道在海港的部分整合如何因為整合就是有一定的調度配合一條邊發生什麼事情你的港務公司或者那邊是誰來去主導平常的日常的"},{"start":4624.83,"end":4652.57,"text":"去做這種check in的動作就你所知整合的如何港務公司的角色是什麼港務公司在長期以來都有配合我們的檢警調在做調查的部分當然會配合那另外針對港務跟海巡的配合其實也是長期在配合但是前一陣子確實有發生過有船員攜帶毒品的這個問題那我也請港務公司現在針對這樣子的問題怎麼樣跟我們的執法單位大家來配合能夠杜絕這樣子的可能性在發生好"},{"start":4655.794,"end":4675.001,"text":"我想 股票上列了兩次的一個案情就在基隆港在去年的4月17有可能是偵破日 搞不好在之前就已經發生這個事情這是基隆港員工運3.2億價值的大麻當然有現報 被抓到了 起訴了"},{"start":4676.38,"end":4693.337,"text":"但其中沒有擔心黑樹第二個是今年的3月24號有抓到偵破長榮海運現任跟離職的船員走私大麻這兩個案子我們的院長您都清楚有掌握嗎"},{"start":4695.112,"end":4712.146,"text":"當然從新聞上我看到我是覺得我們整個過程第一個是這個線報很重要再來科技的執法很重要另外就是我們現在很多的企圖犬也發揮了很大的效果但是我是覺得我們自己的同仁或者是海運相關的業者讓我們覺得很痛心"},{"start":4713.066,"end":4729.822,"text":"那應該是把關的第一線 竟然成為破口之所在所以我是說這個部分如果是公務同仁我們絕一定要求司法研辦公務機關行政上也接受歧視處分那如果是海運的這些同仁 海運的這些職員也應該海運公司內部自我管理要加強"},{"start":4730.823,"end":4748.82,"text":"院長因為這是一個真的是跨部會跨單位而且檢停掉都頗有本位主義的那可是你在港區發生的到底誰來去劃這整件事情讓他去做圓滿我坦白講行政院你要"},{"start":4749.773,"end":4777.906,"text":"不是說你啦你一定要派人去整合這樣的一個問題因為我們發覺你覺得現在這個部長你說一下目前發生這個事情之後你各單位六大守護神跟港澳公司整合得怎麼樣港澳公司當然有找相關的單位來開會那另外港澳公司自己自主啦針對員工的管制跟針對船員的管制的部分跟檢查的部分目前也有加強另外跟委員報告我們海巡經常跟國際合作"},{"start":4779.312,"end":4793.329,"text":"一直跟美方合作 破壞相當多在海上當然是有現報 但是經過國際合作就破壞在海上的毒品那海巡同仁都要很艱難的去危險的登艦去做一些必要的收檢工作這個是海巡同仁經常在付出的"},{"start":4793.955,"end":4822.51,"text":"其實我最擔心是例行性的 daily 的每一天的你如何去掌控一些基本的一個情況從中發生一些問題但我們看到港公司為主從108年到112年他經常也開這個相關單位的一個會議相關的專家學者也去做處理那108年說什麼呢要確實一規定檢查人員以及個人的物品以及車輛跟車上的物品"},{"start":4823.544,"end":4848.707,"text":"很合理嘛那改善情況就是以改善並依規定辦理這代表什麼呢108年的時候遇到有這種例外的情況對人員啊又發生了一些事情不見得是毒品他覺得應該要加強改善以改善114年類似的一個情況就人員未經許可進入港區應該要怎麼樣什麼機制然後就表示又有一些漏洞再檢討"},{"start":4849.668,"end":4869.9,"text":"然後以改善並依規定辦理表示之前有一些落高那最近的112年呢加強落實車輛的一個管理因為我覺得基本功很重要啊因為我們除了自己本身台灣我們自己在運作那我們也是世界的一員我相信"},{"start":4870.84,"end":4900.232,"text":"這個部長你知道什麼是ISPS已經20幾年2002年全世界的海港為了當時是反恐啊反恐啊發這個炸彈什麼東西再進來所以訂定了一個非常嚴肅的針對於港口甚至船舶還有相關的設施訂了一個非常明確的SOP然後是一套完整的港口保全這個一個制度"},{"start":4903.275,"end":4920.984,"text":"第一個你知不知道這整套的系統跟制度然後再來港澳公司跟相關的資源單位有沒有做到報告員這個部分請你明示這個部分我沒有掌握你沒掌握那我建議你回去因為已經很久了"},{"start":4922.248,"end":4949.202,"text":"整個港口該怎麼管制我們自己按照經驗沒有用吧全世界的一個經驗甚至有一些港口發生重大危安不是我們的然後人家經驗跟我們分享該怎麼管制第一關第二關這個部分我們希望在今天總執行之後至少我想包括院長部長能夠多關心我們現在以三港為主的這個的部分來做一個進一步的"},{"start":4949.902,"end":4971.563,"text":"處理好嗎剛剛委員報告我們跟其他國家的共同打擊犯罪其中有一些已經在合作另外有一些我們自己在裝備比方說雷達偵測系統上不急的部分我都跟海巡署講說我們一定要採用最新的設備跟世界同步能夠做情報的分享我想這個部分我們會極力的趕上來好 那接下來我們再看因為我想說最基本功啦"},{"start":4972.065,"end":4993.413,"text":"就每天這麼多的你們不斷的開會說對人員跟人員帶的物品對於車輛車輛帶的物品你們已經三番兩次說要加強加強就代表其實不用我說啦大家也知道這是Daily你們必須要去做的可是我們看到以長風海運大麻運這個案子有三個人進出港口"},{"start":4994.053,"end":5018.778,"text":"有臨時的有現任的你看到第一位蔡元姓蔡的蔡先生他的出入港口的記錄這有正式回文的這個警隊說港警有記錄到然後呢港公司有登錄到然後呢長榮公司CCTV沒看到這個人第二個賴元是港警"},{"start":5020.001,"end":5031.713,"text":"警察的警政單位有進入然後港務公司他沒有勾結到那第三個長榮的CCTV監視系統沒看到最後一位是三個都沒有"},{"start":5032.947,"end":5057.117,"text":"大家沒人看到 就在港區裡面跑來跑去啊所以我剛剛講說齁其實這個不管是國際的一個怎麼樣一個code一個ISPS怎麼樣去做到可是我們先倒過來那個高深的學問你們在研究啦好不好這個是大家都看得懂的我們有幾個人站在第一線就像我們院長所說的六大這個守護神嘛那守護神有時候"},{"start":5057.797,"end":5066.792,"text":"是不是在睡覺還是發呆失靈的一個情況到底要怎麼解決到底要怎麼解決這個我想部長你來回答一下"},{"start":5068.358,"end":5097.598,"text":"為什麼有這種交錯你們面對這問題幾個月了你剛剛說有討論討論發覺是什麼問題如何改善這樣子的表格看得很清楚有一些單位確實他在這個通行證跟門哨的管制沒有百分之百落實這個是我們必須要檢討也必須要趕快改善的那現在港務公司給我這邊的回報是他們已經有開過會討論怎麼樣去落實包含您所提到的港警的部分跟港務公司的部分那另外跟航運公司的協調他們也有做過"},{"start":5098.88,"end":5100.041,"text":"詳細的內容我會後再跟委員報告"},{"start":5102.867,"end":5130.567,"text":"做了希望有效果這是你們後面我們再三追問只有兩個單位說他有精進其他單位好像跟他覺得沒有什麼關係警隊組提了一個精進方案然後港務公司也提一個這個精進的方案就過去只要傳言去申請這個當次的那現在來要傳通這個代表事前的登錄要做一個double check做這個double check的一個動作更嚴謹"},{"start":5132.208,"end":5157.117,"text":"那這個部長覺得有沒有信心啊經過這個double check已經訂過來14個 可能一兩個月了沒有啦 部長講一下好了因為太小的議題我就不問院長了這個部分我們會有信心啦那院長的指示是要有決心一定要把它做好做到做好做到 那已經精進方案已經上路了大概一兩個月了我們來看看什麼精進好不好你們看一下"},{"start":5159.677,"end":5184.497,"text":"這是台北港昨天下午4點46分我們應該期待說這個鋼哨是不是有人守在那裡首先鋼哨是空的沒有人站在外面然後有人逼一聲燈亮然後有轎車沒有人看完全沒有任何反應這樣可以通行現在的情況就是這樣"},{"start":5185.956,"end":5199.132,"text":"到底誰管制 第一個人員管制 沒有剛剛院長說的我們有科技科技管制不是 他逼到了 亮或者不亮 合不合格照樣他自己去通行我跟你講齁"},{"start":5200.336,"end":5219.106,"text":"所以這個部分真的是要院長來做一個協調處理因為這個可能又是警政單位了為什麼昨天我們的秘書看到這個狀況覺得很奇怪看不懂有人逼一聲有人沒有進進出出這個非常通暢結果我們進去看在裡面的警員"},{"start":5221.087,"end":5248.096,"text":"這個奇怪 為什麼有B道跟沒有B道有沒有量檢驗到他都可以出去啊然後再來對這些我這個叫車的部分啊我覺得像很多的貨櫃貨運這個我們期待這個公司上貨的時候自主管理我們希望相信他因為這個國家運貨的效率你知道嗎甚至讓這個貨櫃車大車堵在那個門口每一個要爬上去檢查我覺得這個不合理"},{"start":5249.276,"end":5264.486,"text":"覺得但是轎車這個部分誰自主管理啊誰自主管理到底發生了什麼事結果昨天的員警特別說不要問我不要問我這個廠商就是這個設施這個設施有時候會出問題你要去問這個設施的廠商"},{"start":5269.517,"end":5298.404,"text":"因為我們覺得很尷尬今天是已經經濟方案已經上路了在經濟方案沒有上路對於人車尤其這個人的沒有自主管理過的不是那種大貨車那到底發生什麼事了照這樣逼一下裡面多載一個人也沒事喔你看這種多載一個人兩個人完全一點事情都沒有我倒是覺得很奇怪這個東西我倒是不會說去怪這個交通部可是如果那個系統啊"},{"start":5299.773,"end":5322.835,"text":"那個系統啊有量沒量都可以到遠景執法也很無奈那他變成因為被騙很多次了所以他乾脆狼來了我以為不出去了有量沒量都不行這個部分是很嚴重的這個院長你看到這個情況好像不太符合我們現在的剛剛的全面的要求你說說看要怎麼樣去精進改善"},{"start":5323.833,"end":5347.546,"text":"謝謝委員我覺得第一個非常遺憾但更感謝委員提供這樣的資訊5月5號16點46分這個剛燒的人員到底是誰我們在行政上我又要求台北港跟交通部我們要做強力的要求到底他的人員有沒有盡到責任另外這些進出車輛有沒有經過安全檢查的程序過程如何一定要詳實報告如果有行政上的疏忽我們一定要做行政上的追究謝謝委員"},{"start":5350.196,"end":5367.029,"text":"希望能夠逐步精進啦因為事實上很多人常常會經過要進去港口是什麼樣的一個情況我一直在說對於營業大量的有自主管理的車輛載貨不要再把人家打開什麼樣的方式但是對於這樣的一個不明的轎車或者沒有"},{"start":5367.89,"end":5382.719,"text":"沒有逼生的這個部分我覺得要有一些作為那接下來我們再看一樣是港務公司的港務公司在幾年前為了科技創新鼓勵科技創新用科技的方法來去提供"},{"start":5383.868,"end":5412.415,"text":"港務公司港口需求來提供科技的解決方案那也希望在這個實驗之後呢能夠落地商轉就是簡單講實驗完之後現在就在港口港務公司那邊港域去做實施甚至能夠從實驗港拓展到所有的商港這是我們港務公司目前在網站上開宗明義所以科技去做管理這個的部分那請問一下部長你知道嗎"},{"start":5414.057,"end":5427.447,"text":"這個部分我大概知道我們以政府補助,政府沒有補助算了以政府補助的有三項創新的工作以港口做實驗場域因為時間有限那我們希望你們自己去查清楚了解一下"},{"start":5428.656,"end":5451.281,"text":"這三個政府非常補助無人載具智慧巡檢這個補助了五千多萬自駕巴士區塊鏈物流服務這在台北港也是交通部的補助三千六百萬第三個應該是高雄港的吧無人機後勤的一個補給這數位部來補助了一千三那就請問一下算了如果你剛剛都沒聽過的話這幾個到底"},{"start":5454.042,"end":5476.987,"text":"最後的結果其實坦白講到112年111年112年結案了啦本身當時的計畫已經結案了啦那到底哪一個落地港公司要講一下嗎到底哪一個是現在進行式哇 實驗成功了我推展科技了因為當時是港公司的需求不是人家硬塞進來的一個案子我跟你講花錢築夢夢醒一場空這三個補助的計畫"},{"start":5485.199,"end":5510.594,"text":"目前為止沒有一個可以正常落地變成科技資源港口公司的所以這到底是不是港務公司需求因為當時你不是部長我只是說你現在要去了解那到底哪些可以落地的甚至還要發展到全台灣港口去做甚至還誇言可以出國輸出去做比賽的你看以無人載具的一個巡檢"},{"start":5513.429,"end":5531.287,"text":"這個最後的結案啊人家專家學者的第二十項你看第一個無人載具具有天候限制人家委員問他說那下雨天會不會影響到無人機的視覺結果回答是開玩笑說不會你知道為什麼不會因為我們雨天不出情"},{"start":5532.301,"end":5555.595,"text":"雨天不出勤那金融港呢大概平均200到230天的雨天所以我們的科技創新呢在實驗階段大概有六成的時間不用出勤所以會不會因為雨天影響所以不會那諸如此類這個奇奇怪怪的一個情況沒有一個落地的包括巴士區塊鏈這個部分"},{"start":5557.572,"end":5564.875,"text":"這個智慧駕駛只有直線700公尺用智慧駕駛其他都一個人在上面開好謝謝盧委員 謝謝卓院長"},{"start":5588.919,"end":5618.195,"text":"報告院會現在在議場二樓旁清洗的是法務部司法官學院的學員我們在此表示歡迎他們的參訪 謝謝下一位請嚴寬衡委員質詢主席各位立席官員大家早主席有請行政院左院長、交通部陳部長"},{"start":5619.279,"end":5621.441,"text":"請卓院長還有陳部長備詢院長早部長早台幣升值目前已經來到29國內所有的製造業各產業都非常的緊張我想請教院長後續會不會繼續升值"},{"start":5646.26,"end":5665.792,"text":"這個國際的情勢跟市場的機制我們當然要有所掌握那我覺得目前我們在觀測過程當中似乎大家心裡的預期都比較強烈一點我們台灣是出口導向的國家所以匯率的問題是影響非常的大非常深遠所以要請院長多多注意好不好"},{"start":5666.414,"end":5684.539,"text":"我也希望社會大眾我們一個有信心第二個有一些不實的訊息不要隨便的傳遞出來我們讓央行能夠專業來穩定請教院長 院長 部長我一直關心的台中大慶烏日段高架計畫台中市府114年1月9日含送修正後報告書"},{"start":5686.072,"end":5712.823,"text":"另外一個案子台中海線雙軌高架也是在1月9號含送修正後報告書請問這兩個案子目前還在交通部嗎請部長回答報告委員目前鐵道局在5月2號已經含請台中市政府要再辦修正所以我才說1月9號也要送了現在又送了到部了"},{"start":5714.847,"end":5736.458,"text":"現在又在市政府了因為我們5月2號已經回函請他再繼續修正所以這樣子一來一往這第幾次了第四次第五次修正報告委員重點是在於說我們希望台中市政府修正的內容希望他要真的落實下去修正那目前我們所看到的內容是他沒有依照我們的建議下去修正還有國發會的意見我跟院長跟部長說跟各位報告"},{"start":5739.758,"end":5759.033,"text":"大慶烏日高架計畫部長也是烏日區選出來的司議員曾經在烏日區這是我的政見所以我也很想實現所以當地的情況你也非常清楚他迫在眉睫那在原物料人力成本不斷攀升的情況之下越早核定越早發包省越多錢"},{"start":5760.168,"end":5782.026,"text":"那而且在鐵道建設 全國的鐵道建設總經費的匯整表當中我們也看到不管是桃園 嘉義 嘉義縣市 台南 高雄中央的占比都非常的高只有台中市的部分是地方占比比台中高那我不曉得說為什麼台中的大慶會議段沒有辦法競訴核定"},{"start":5783.102,"end":5797.633,"text":"這個部分因為周邊城市發展已經非常成熟啦我相信部長你比我比如說我們都一樣很清楚你從2010年當選市議員三屆的市議員都是當地選出來的所以我告訴你我已經在失敗這一屆我已經第四次總質詢在詢問這個問題失敗就兩年啦所以我想"},{"start":5808.595,"end":5831.106,"text":"我們看不到任何發展都是原地踏步我們身為烏日選出來的民意代表立委也好 部長也好我相信民眾的期待我們是不希望能夠不希望讓民眾失望啦我相信我們的市民對柏定也有很大的期待但是我感覺你會讓他們很失望啦那接下來我們國內山鐵貢過的部分山鐵貢過站有台北板橋還有高雄"},{"start":5837.569,"end":5865.366,"text":"那台中新日日站也是三鐵共購但是所有的站都有自強號停靠但是只有新日日站每日只有兩班南下的自強號停靠我要請院長、部長、台鐵公司研議民眾的需求新增自強號停靠台鐵新日日站還有增加停靠台鐵新日日站的班次因為台中市的人口已經是全國第二大不日區超過八萬人"},{"start":5866.326,"end":5873.653,"text":"那三鐵公共站竟然只有兩班停靠 這非常誇張啦這真的非常誇張 請院長跟部長承諾好不好報告委員 除了這兩班之外如果在連假 或者是假期期間人潮眾多的時候當然知道嘛 會調整嘛但是你可不可以在原有限有的狀況之下增加班次嘛"},{"start":5891.29,"end":5899.204,"text":"目前我們正在跟台鐵討論這個問題我們也認為那個地方需要增加對號車次那我們也跟台鐵正在溝通當中"},{"start":5900.1,"end":5920.051,"text":"我希望你是一個有效率的部長不要說讓外公兩年了我剛剛提到了這不只兩年你在當議員的時候我們就一直你也曾經協助地方在推動大慶烏日高價化可是你當了部長了你就應該更用力的來推動我已經很用力了現在也需要台中市政府配合"},{"start":5920.791,"end":5946.79,"text":"委員 您家人在台中市政府的影響力應該也不小是不是可以拜託他們幫忙一下提出這些經費的問題民意代表不管是議員 議會 全力在協助部長 我們不要在這裡這樣讀來讀去一定會努力做 交通部不能做我們就來做事情好 這個烏日高鐵這個娛樂城我想大家知道現在最大的一個這個開發區在台中的烏日高鐵"},{"start":5947.725,"end":5970.745,"text":"那這個高鐵業城總開發金額超過260億那基地面積超過15公頃那我想周邊的交通絕對是會超過負荷上次我在這邊質詢院長跟部長的時候你有提過說要組成專案小組那但是我跟交通部要的資料發現說第一次開會的時候高鐵公司居然沒有被放在出席單位啦那會議結論是"},{"start":5972.96,"end":5996.316,"text":"請將台灣高鐵公司納入專案小組會議成員所以我在想說這是不是我們高鐵公司出什麼問題是融資鬆了還是出現什麼問題那成立這個專案小組也是部長院長部長當時的承諾那這個專案小組是要來解決相關問題的而不是一個應付的一個型態所以我想要請部長 院長"},{"start":5998.317,"end":6011.805,"text":"我們在這邊做一個承諾未來的會議結論也可以提供給本席辦公室那是不是也可以讓本院的委員來參與會議一起幫烏日解決問題院長部長可不可以"},{"start":6014.658,"end":6037.866,"text":"這個已經是去年的會議紀錄了那去年到現在這幾個月下來應該當中都有暗部就班在進行相關的討論我現在問嘛 當初高鐵第一次會議竟然沒有被納入不是出席 沒有被放入出席單位嘛這第一次嘛 後面這要開幾次就改回啊那開了這麼多次會 回到問題本身"},{"start":6039.38,"end":6067.335,"text":"到底怎麼樣才可以舒緩這些交通呢不論是在國道1號偵測閘道還是優化台氣視線讓進入高鐵站區跟進入漁獄城的車輛分流又或者是在烏日閘道、王田交流道的優化還是舒緩這些都是對於舒緩高鐵特區未來可能面臨的擁捨問題不然我現在已經可以預期就是說每逢假日車輛從停運道路會回乳到高架上啦這是肯定會發生的啦"},{"start":6069.013,"end":6076.718,"text":"我在這邊跟院長部長詳細講一下有兩個方向第一個就是設法增加平面道路的容量"},{"start":6077.895,"end":6097.636,"text":"那第二個就是快速高速快速道路增加閘道那第一點台中市政府也正在努力主要就是要將目前高鐵五路調整成左轉的單行道這個部長你就清楚了高鐵五路左轉要上這個高鐵的這個乘客這個高鐵站"},{"start":6099.097,"end":6117.172,"text":"這樣子的話可以再來就是高鐵路二段跟三段的分隔打除可以增加路幅還有增加這個行車空間那第三個就是高鐵五路打通輪子巷打通輪子巷然後銜接這個雪鐵路但是這個案子會貫穿"},{"start":6119.437,"end":6144.697,"text":"穿越這個國道1號與高宮局相關這個部分那第二點就是中央應該出力協助的台7市縣閘道拓寬國道1號銜接高鐵特區台7市縣有這個預留斷面是不是可以直接銜接至高鐵站二樓下課區我要強調建議這個拓寬台7市縣閘道提升下閘道往高鐵站的紓解效率"},{"start":6145.404,"end":6159.819,"text":"有三項建議因為這個要做的事情太多了第一個就是高鐵東路的閘道由一車道變為三車道我們下閘道的那部分部長你今天早上我們一起搭高鐵上來你很清楚回堵都回堵在那裡"},{"start":6160.765,"end":6176.962,"text":"那第二個就是拓寬長度是110米這個部分可以增加儲車空間下閘道車輛可以提早分流可以提升這個右轉來舒緩這個右轉的效率我再強調一次就是說鐵道局的促參案"},{"start":6178.564,"end":6198.896,"text":"中央不應該置身事外朝向這兩大方向中央地方都應該要齊心努力共同努力那相關的法規在我剛剛提到的三個方案請問何時可以提供本席這個初步評估的結果報告委員中央沒有置身事外副院長也相當關心我跟副院長也開過會討論過這個問題"},{"start":6201.23,"end":6224.416,"text":"鐵道局也召開過三次的會議您也應該相當的清楚所以從來沒有置身事外這件事那第二您所提的這幾個建議都是我們當時在會議當中大家都有討論到的那目前也都在研議的過程不過有一些是市政府必須要去做的努力那市政府就去做但是中央該做的包含委員您剛剛有提到這個高速公路要不要設閘道的部分"},{"start":6224.856,"end":6252.872,"text":"中央也會協助來補助地方政府來做這個可行性的研究那如果做出來是可行的我們當然就會來做副院長我們江啟臣副院長4月24號召集我們台中市的委員還有市政府還有交通部鐵道局也有參加鐵道局當天有承諾說要有答應補助這個研究經費研究案的研究經費那什麼時候可以補助他們要先提出申請我們就會盡快補助"},{"start":6254.653,"end":6277.688,"text":"都已經提出申請了 怎麼沒有提出申請上次的決議是希望他們提出申請沒有 4月24號我們已經在副院長我們所邀請的這個地方的一個在高鐵站那個案子 當場我們那個鐵道局承諾要盡速的來撥補就是來提供這個經費院長部長 我想我們都要"},{"start":6279.27,"end":6287.33,"text":"盡力的來協助好不好我們不要狀況外不要這樣子都好像沒有在online的樣子那我想再來再請教就是說"},{"start":6288.649,"end":6313.872,"text":"台中市4月27號在巷上又發生了重大車禍那一輛連結車因為煞車失靈衝下斜坡衝撞20多輛汽機車造成多人輕重傷沒有人願意看到這些意外的發生短中長期計畫我們也都向市府提出建議來逐步改善我從2013年上任之後提案興建大渡和美大橋"},{"start":6314.892,"end":6328.894,"text":"那原因就是希望透過和美大橋來分散向上路的大型車的車流如果有和美大橋作為聯絡道未來也可以來嚴禮禁止這些大型重車向西行駛本路段"},{"start":6329.451,"end":6350.305,"text":"那直接經由國道3號銜接這個河美交流道後透過河美大橋來進入台中港區那我想當地部長你也很熟悉啦那目前我們已經請市府朝深圳線道路的目標來改善那目前有因為向上路從圓圓路一直到中興橋這個部分"},{"start":6352.475,"end":6381.563,"text":"是三級陡坡下交流道後一直到這個沙田路都是下坡路段短程的高架也沒有辦法去緩解下坡路段的情況所以目前請市府朝向銜接台61線的可能性研究但是我們在109年但是因為這個是內政部國土署因為是都市計畫道路那內政部國土署也希望院長能夠指示國土署全力來協助本案的經費"},{"start":6382.905,"end":6401.378,"text":"109年市府評估向上路至中興橋總長4公里的這個高架部分當時出估經費就已經將近40億那按照這些年的這些通膨還有上漲的程度我想超過6年了這些造價可能會超過50億而且還只是銜接到中興橋"},{"start":6402.259,"end":6429.059,"text":"如果延伸到台六十一線這些經費可能要兩倍以上所以在這邊要先請院長部長承諾願意協助整個向上路高架延伸段到台六十一線的這樣子的可能性院長跟部長你有沒有承諾這兩件事情就是說向上路這個車禍我覺得地方政府要趕快把它的交通號誌標線等等要做好那減少這種安全上的顧慮"},{"start":6429.679,"end":6457.332,"text":"那至於說台61線好像跟這裡的距離還是有一點那未來要做怎麼樣的評估因為向上路發生車禍不是今年這是從過去到現在已經發生很多次我們貴院何新淳委員也到現場去會堪但是他提的方案也是過去不管是交通局或者是這些裁判機構都有做出相同的一些處理那所以這個部分其實大家都已經"},{"start":6458.633,"end":6482.901,"text":"所有的應用方式都有已經討論過區段測速任何方式都有討論過所以這個部分我想進入高價的這樣的計畫的引領才是主要的方向所以從現在兩個一個是延伸台六十一線那因為如果說只延伸到所謂的中心橋短短的四公里就預算就將近四十億而且這還是六年前的估算"},{"start":6483.641,"end":6503.242,"text":"那未來如果你現在去算應該會超過50億啦那如果延伸到台六十一線那個經費更加龐大所以這邊一定要這個台中市沒辦法獨立完成一定要請院長部長來盡力的協助好不好因為我時間有限那我進入下一個本席因為這個收到大客車整體產業公會的陳情"},{"start":6505.104,"end":6527.291,"text":"它主要的成全內容是因為政府已經已規定全面採用六期環保高安全標準車業者希望政府進一步補助來提供政策誘因來減輕購車負擔避免影響市場購車意願在不影響用車安全的情況下希望交通部能夠聽到大客車業者的心聲當然第一個主要"},{"start":6528.452,"end":6534.551,"text":"一個核心就是民眾的安全第一啦民眾的安全第一我們就來協助大客車整體這些公會他們的"},{"start":6619.119,"end":6640.855,"text":"好 謝謝嚴委員 謝謝卓院長剛剛原委提到高鐵台中站周邊交通改善問題的確刻不容晚謝謝部長當時也同意成立中央地方的檢討小組我們希望這個改善速度能夠再加快一點 謝謝下一位我們請陳玉珍委員質詢"},{"start":6647.387,"end":6648.373,"text":"謝謝主席,請這個院長請左院長"},{"start":6659.704,"end":6677.542,"text":"院長早 院委員好基本早期因為是戰地所以很多的基礎建設都是國防部幫我們做的海岸線因為受軍事管制所以都是比如說我們就不能下海然後很多沿海海岸線的相關產業就不發達了因為是"},{"start":6678.162,"end":6694.579,"text":"軍事管制區 散路者格殺勿論我小時候海邊都是有這支所以我們真正的漁港不多到現在來講大概只有三個地方新湖 復國敦跟羅柱所以海上觀光也不大發達現在我們漁船的數量 金門漁船數量總共的數量是兩百多艘"},{"start":6699.264,"end":6714.055,"text":"那可以停的這個漁船的這個博位也是大概現在只有170個那當然最近這幾年在我們向中央爭取之下也有逐漸增加那大概也會到200多個但是200多個以後接著最近金門縣政府要開放這個"},{"start":6716.677,"end":6735.554,"text":"台灣的漁船入籍到金門所以第一個漁船的博位會不足那更重要的是還有當然漁船這是經濟部漁業署那邊那更重要的是還有交通部管轄的自用小船金門的這個自用小船大概現在有400多艘那現在自用小船的停泊的這個博位有多少呢大概只有大概"},{"start":6736.935,"end":6765.923,"text":"今年如果這個金門遊艇基地那個完成以後今年提竣工以後大概可以提供55個位置那九宮碼頭提供15個位置那大概就是70個位置那事實上金門的自用小船大概有400個位置所以我想請問院長是不是支持也請這個部長這邊是不是支持我們金門這個部分你們是不是應該做規劃因為現在的確已經不足了現在自用小船的舶位不足的情況下讓他們跟漁船的這個停泊常常"},{"start":6766.663,"end":6789.564,"text":"發生這個糾紛啦就漁船的位置也不夠嘛那自用小船的位置非常不夠那當然自用小船是發展海上觀光的一個要點而且因為金門里大陸距嘛現在有時候小三中介往來有時開始有大陸員因為廈門那邊有香山遊艇啊什麼有時候也願意到坐遊艇到我們金門旅遊坐正常那個客輪以外所以這個部分的話是不是這個我們行政院這邊有沒有什麼做法"},{"start":6790.527,"end":6802.041,"text":"興建這個相關的這個國委請部長回答 但是我跟委員報告一件事情行政院對於離島地區能夠發揮離島在地的特色文化的任何的構想我們都願意很"},{"start":6802.882,"end":6825.464,"text":"節省的跟大家來討論 這個有助於觀光事業那至於說海港船舶的管理 請部長來說明但是不夠席位啦 碼頭博位不夠報告委員 在111年到115年的這個計畫裡面我們已經補助金門縣政府2.47億元來建設這個博區 來興建55席的博位對我知道 55以後再加15 那個我一樣算給你"},{"start":6827.926,"end":6850.766,"text":"現在聽起來是狀況來看還是可能不夠所以我們還是會繼續跟縣政府這邊來溝通有沒有可能我們再增加這樣子的建制現在這個我們原來水頭跟九宮那個地方我們有實際去看交通部也找時間可以請航空局看原來大小金門現在有金門大小原來那個在坐船的那個地方"},{"start":6851.246,"end":6865.73,"text":"也就沒有需要大小金門的船嘛那邊就可以在偵測很簡單的就可以很快的偵測一些博位出來讓這個自用小船有停的地方才不會在金門常常有糾紛發生不管自用小船跟漁船就會常常為了搶博位這個東西縣政府也是一定支持只是說"},{"start":6870.791,"end":6897.613,"text":"可能是不是動作要快一點 這個經費的部分事實上也不一定需要非常多錢 因為做這個碼頭而已嘛做這個可以挺靠的國衛而已是不是這個規劃是不是可以快一點啊我知道110年到110年有這個規劃 但是55席和15席太少了現在的海上觀光因為小山通開始以後 現在海上觀光也越來越蓬勃發展這是五一的時候 就是剛過去到五一的廉價我們一天就來了四五千個入客"},{"start":6899.514,"end":6913.906,"text":"所以這個觀光發展是現在比較蓬勃發展但是就是說漁船還有這個交通自用小船的博位是遠遠不夠啊這個會引起很大的治安糾紛一直發生你盡快找時間是不是我也歡迎您過去啊"},{"start":6915.367,"end":6928.455,"text":"我跟部長還沒過去 歡迎您到金門去實際考察看看好 謝謝您那接著我想請教自由貿易港區的問題行政院經貿談判辦公室5月3號有發布新聞稿說我們的團隊 我們政府的團隊已經在美東時間5月1號結束在華府就對等關稅等經貿議題和美國已經完成首輪的實體磋商對吧"},{"start":6941.222,"end":6963.436,"text":"這新聞稿有寫嘛是由我們副院長鄭麗君副院長還有我們談判總代表楊正麗帶隊會談氣氛坦誠榮恰雙方都表達對強化台美經貿合作的共同期待是這樣吧是的好 那我想請教您就是談判裡頭當然就是gift take我給你什麼你給我什麼在第一回合談判裡頭我們有沒有獲得具體的降稅承諾"},{"start":6965.228,"end":6987.098,"text":"降稅 現在不是要32%嗎原來我們只有很少你既然談判會談氣氛融洽嘛那大家都有共同強化合作的期待那有沒有什麼具體的承諾報告委員 談判是一個整體的過程開始的第一次談判雙方把自己的立場充分交涉之後一定會有下一次更具體的但是有沒有具體的承諾我沒有要你告訴我什麼承諾有沒有獲得什麼具體的承諾"},{"start":6989.759,"end":7011.427,"text":"有沒有承諾 至於內容是什麼你因為還在談判你也可以不用告訴我但是有沒有獲得什麼具體的承諾談判一定到最後才能夠依照國際慣例跟雙方的默契所以現在還沒有什麼具體的承諾好 那我們有沒有給他什麼具體的承諾我方有沒有給美方什麼具體的承諾是那句話 談判一定依照國際慣例跟雙方的默契我們在過程當中"},{"start":7012.25,"end":7036.602,"text":"都不能說我們有過沒有我沒有叫你告訴我談判的內容是什麼或具體的承諾有沒有在過程中他們有說具體說好你沒有叫我告訴你可是你問的就是這樣子沒有你不用告訴我內容有沒有具體的承諾沒有就對了沒有沒關係談判第一次的過程是交換我們的方案是很具體的我們方案有順遂但對方還沒有承諾還在一個過程還沒有承諾但是有過程而已談判是一個過程現在在過程當中我們已經在相當優先的位置"},{"start":7039.824,"end":7041.686,"text":"這幾天我們看到新台幣不停的升值這個是不是我們給美國的承諾"},{"start":7063.545,"end":7085.504,"text":"談判的過程沒有涉及任何匯率相關議題所以我們沒有給美國這個承諾說我們這個新台幣沒有談到任何匯率的相關議題沒有談 我就給你機會講清楚因為這兩天這個升值實在是太嚴重了我們行政院的新聞稿對外也甚至講了總統在昨天的講話當中也講了談判過程沒有涉及到任何匯率的相關議題"},{"start":7086.385,"end":7113.819,"text":"那如果沒有這樣的話這兩天的這個新台幣匯率這個升值對國內的這個出口產業很多產業影響太大了那你們就既然我們也沒有給美方承諾說我們一定要新台幣升值嘛那你們就應該要有你們的做法出來你們應該就是要看看國內產業受衝擊有多大影響太大很多產業再下去如果繼續這樣往下走的話已經很多產業受不了了這個你也不會比我不了解那我想你這個可能要相當注意"},{"start":7114.599,"end":7143.851,"text":"翻新下去就會帶來失業潮很多事情很多工廠可能就沒有辦法往下移然後接著會帶來的後續的很多反應連鎖反應會更大這一點你們要特別注意那當然不管你們有沒有承諾我們反正現在就是相信政府吧來接著我想請問民進黨委員之前一直在講說我所提的那個離島的這個自由貿易港區那我想請問美國貿易代表有沒有在這次會議中有沒有談到我們金門不能成立離島自由貿易港區"},{"start":7145.285,"end":7171.076,"text":"這又是談判內容我怎麼會說有沒有呢所以你也不知道對不對你心裡應該知道不可能談到這個細節嘛你不知道細節喔這樣很嚴重喔你心裡應該知道不可能談到這種細節不可能有嘛所以不可能有談到嘛對不對我以為你不知道細節反正不可能談到不可能談到什麼金門城區自由貿易港區嘛那也所以說或者說他關切息產地嘛因為金門還沒有成立嘛所以他關切息產地這個議題嘛息產地違規轉運那就是指那如果關切息產地"},{"start":7174.437,"end":7199.71,"text":"如果自由貿易港區對趙民進黨立委的說法是一個可能席產地的地方那我們就要考慮說是現在有的這個自由貿易港區現在自由貿易港區有幾個 您知道嗎七個七個齁 那自由貿易港區成立的先決條件是什麼這個部長知道嗎這應該是要是國際港要去國際港 對 非常正確 要是國際港齁那我想請問一下 自由貿易港區成立後交通費要不要管理啊"},{"start":7200.825,"end":7224.19,"text":"自由貿易港區那個地方都是交通部管理的要不要管理?要嘛,對不對?要不要進行業務查核?還是就放任他?我們配合經濟部跟財政部都有在做查核每年都要進行一次查核啦那我也請問,你說要自由貿易港又要是國際港那安平港那時候不是國際港,為什麼也可以成立自由貿易港區?台南安平港台南安平港我們這資料有,我們有去查了"},{"start":7225.353,"end":7239.153,"text":"後來港務公司投入 後來才升 後來它整理 喔 還沒有是這樣嗎 後來才那個現在是啦 現在升級啦所以我想請問啦 那我們今天港現在是什麼港國內商港 那我們也可以提升為國際港吧"},{"start":7243.097,"end":7266.891,"text":"目前沒有這個討論怎麼會沒有這個討論呢金門現在 你認為金門現在沒有這個需求嗎目前沒有討論金門成為國際商港那我想請問金門現在是什麼港 院長金門現在是什麼港那都是國內商港是國內商港嗎國際商港一定有它的量先不要講量還有重要是航線的安全跟穩定這些都要考慮的我說國際港是國際之間的往來嘛 對不對是不是 國際之間的往來嘛廈門屬於哪一國"},{"start":7272.435,"end":7274.436,"text":"中華人民共和國 中華民國 互不隸屬金門已經在走國際航線"},{"start":7284.798,"end":7303.848,"text":"走國際航線不一定完全就是一個國際港走國際航線不是國際港所以他沒有成立國際航線我們都在走國際航線了咧他必須要有安全的航道安全航道要注意是你們後來應該那是管理上的問題小三通或是其他的行為這個都是我們雙方在現在這個機制底下去面對"},{"start":7304.989,"end":7329.736,"text":"我要講一下我們這個自由貿易港區的申請為什麼要去離島建設條例修這個東西齁這個原因是這樣子如果我們是一個兩岸港或是你說的國內港小山東港不然還有什麼不叫國際港我們就只好修離島建設條例比照自由貿易港區來做自由貿易港好那如果我們不是我們是國際港的話我們就變成國際港我們就可以直接試用我們不用修離島建設條例啊不是 委員你這個邏輯錯不是修"},{"start":7330.959,"end":7337.223,"text":"離島條例讓他成為國際港是必須國際港的條件我們現在來做配套我們修離島階段條例就是要修一個特別法讓他適用因為我們既然被你們認為不是交通部認為基本不是國際港所以我們就修一個特別法在離島階段條例以後比照自貿港的條例"},{"start":7352.091,"end":7374.859,"text":"原來的一樣東西搬到離島街條裡頭我們就可以試用嘛那如果你們認為我們是國際港我們連修都不用修我們就試用就好了我們就直接試用國際港的自由貿易港的辦法就好了嘛所以我很想知道我們明確定位是什麼既然賴總統我非常尊重賴總統而且我相信我們的總統既然賴總統您剛剛 還有院長您剛剛也說了廈門是中華人民共和國金門是中華民國而且賴總統說兩邊互不隸屬嘛"},{"start":7378.28,"end":7396.628,"text":"那不就兩國與國之間的關係就是國際港國和國之間不叫國際叫什麼咧所以我們基本也是一個國際港啊所以就是基於這種地位的特殊當初設立的小山東等等就是跑這個地位特殊關係特殊的狀況之下沒有 你剛才也說啦 既然中華人民共和國和中華民國是互不隸屬嘛 對不對"},{"start":7397.728,"end":7412.406,"text":"我也說了國際港他必須要安全穩定的安全是後來的事情安全是管理的問題現在金門是不是在對方艦機經常侵擾的情況底下他是不是安全穩定他除了中華人民共和國跟中華民國來往之外他會不會有其他第三國家來參與呢軍機更常侵擾台灣本島啊"},{"start":7416.471,"end":7425.459,"text":"那這些港口都不能變成國際港港有很多第三國家會來參與會來進出 你了解我意思嗎我們也可以變國際港 香港的船也可以過來來我講到這個我舉例金門的機場就有國際包機啊日本飛機也來飛啊 越南也來飛啊我們都會去越南的啊你不是先想說我們要先有這個條件成為嘛然後後面的管理是後面的事情嘛 對不對你要先給我們這個機會嘛"},{"start":7440.512,"end":7456.077,"text":"要循序漸進那你要怎麼樣讓我們循序漸進我們要爭取這個 你要怎麼樣讓我們循序漸進我可以不要在離島建設條例修啊但是你要讓我變成國際港 或你幫我升格啊安平港就是升格的啊或者你就把我認為現在就是國際港委員提出的離島建設條例 其中並不只有這個重點"},{"start":7457.177,"end":7477.344,"text":"對 可以討論 所有的法令都是可以討論的好不好 修法就是一個討論 民主就是討論的過程我的意思就是說 如果這樣子 因為按照賴總統的意思我們現在就是國際港了啊 你剛剛有回答我啊中華民國和中華人民共和國 那國和國之間往來怎麼不叫國際呢?因為修法提出來就是一個討論的過程 就很多委員討論是反對的"},{"start":7480.04,"end":7480.681,"text":"我們都會強力的管制"},{"start":7496.24,"end":7519.936,"text":"你聽我講 當然要管制啊越南跟泰國離中國道很遠啊不是被洗產地你不會因為我們地理位置比較近就說我們會洗產地那高雄 安平 基隆 台北港我都有去看過啊他們就不會洗產地只有我們金門會洗產地我跟你講金門才不會洗產地因為金門地方很小每個人都幾乎彼此認識只要有人做洗產地 馬上今天做明天就會被抓啦我跟你講金門就是這種很小的地方啊做不了什麼壞事的地方啊"},{"start":7520.416,"end":7533.096,"text":"所以金門反而是一個很好管制的地方真的 金門就是一個這樣的地方我認識你三代 你認識我五代這種地方所以很容易管制我也不反對 本來就要管制我也剛說最後馬上要 江湖每一年每個月都要去查核我們支持啊"},{"start":7533.797,"end":7562.899,"text":"我們只是想祈求跟台灣本島這些港口有一樣的地位而已我們不是想要特別做什麼你知道嗎我們只是祈求你給我們這樣的機會而已對於離島的特色文化行政院都願意支持所以這個發揮觀光發揮商業活動的可能性我們都願意支持那這個要循序漸進 按部就班的討論在國家安全情況底下我們要列為優先重點那幫我們升為國際港好嗎 升格這個要循序漸進 按部就班的討論"},{"start":7563.539,"end":7564.28,"text":"第一個計畫嗎?好,謝謝陳委員,也謝謝卓院長報告院會休息10分鐘,休息之後繼續進行質詢,現在休息"},{"start":8241.26,"end":8244.801,"text":"主席 福音同仁大家好我們首先請我們卓院長跟陳部長"},{"start":8269.942,"end":8270.81,"text":"請卓院長跟陳部長備詢"},{"start":8283.821,"end":8293.183,"text":"本席今天針對交通安全跟觀光的議題來跟你們做個討論我們現在已經邁入了高齡社會根據內政部的資料統計目前65歲以上的老人已經達到了429萬"},{"start":8304.488,"end":8320.539,"text":"6,985人那佔全國總人口的18%那以這樣的速度我們應該很快的就會進入超高齡社會20%的這個比例我想很快就會到了所以今天本席想要針對高齡族群的交通事故來跟您做個討論"},{"start":8321.88,"end":8347.605,"text":"高齡者一直是交通事故的高風險群我們在人行步道、公車站牌跟失能老人的接送基本上很不友善老人的視力跟體能所以我們在高齡化的社會老人的人數不斷地成長當然我們應該要有更符合高齡人口生活的環境比如建置完善的人行道或者是適合老人行動的公共設施"},{"start":8348.405,"end":8363.774,"text":"那麼本席這邊要提醒一下整個交通部在老人設施的這個部分目前的一個做法所以依據數據我們看到高齡機車騎士的死傷案件比前一年增加了2574件"},{"start":8365.495,"end":8386.829,"text":"高齡者在路口的交通事故也比前一年增加了2005件整體高齡者死傷的人數年增2981人已經快3000了行人總死傷的人數總共17000多件但是高齡者就佔了6195件比例是非常高的將近三分之一"},{"start":8387.649,"end":8414.524,"text":"這樣子的數字背後呈現了整個趨勢的成長但是這不是偶然的那交通部目前的狀況呢依本席所知道是以宣導跟增設標誌來處理問題那這樣子似乎有點消極那長者現在已經是一個高風險群那也由於他們的整個機能的問題呢我們交通環境好像沒有跟上人口結構的改變那院長您的看法呢"},{"start":8415.424,"end":8425.317,"text":"非常謝謝委員為我們這種族群65歲以上的高齡者的安全來設想那其實我們在討論過程當中年輕的族群"},{"start":8426.158,"end":8452.111,"text":"在騎機車跟高齡的在交通事故上面都有呈現很高的一個數字那高齡的尤其在清晨去運動的時候發生的狀況也非常多那他騎車的時候有些自己本身的條件或是疏離住也很多所以我們就從各方面來討論過我們在路口安全行人安全跟改善路口計畫當中我們多次都討論到這樣相關的議題那是不是部長能夠再仔細的說明一下"},{"start":8454.212,"end":8474.405,"text":"所以你們現在比較具體的一個做法是?您所提到的這個人行的空間這個相當的重要所以我們在永續提升人行安全計畫裡面我們四年其實會投入400億的這個經費我們希望讓人行道的建置能夠更加的完整在過馬路行穿線的部分也要更加的完整至少你們現在在經費上有投入嘛那本行這邊還是提醒"},{"start":8475.626,"end":8502.272,"text":"在高齡的部分要更加的做一個規劃像我們的整個行人道的高低不平這個問題我想大家都知道常常走路的時候就阻礙重重另外有一個很重要的就是說我們的耗製燈高齡者平均每秒的速度是0.8公尺到1公尺但是我們的整個設計大概都是1.2公尺的一個耗製秒數所以這個部分應該更具體的來做一個改善"},{"start":8503.292,"end":8526.907,"text":"另外目前的自行車道規劃感覺還是以汽機車為規劃的主體所以在日常的通行跟休閒的安全需求也是非常高你們有沒有可能針對高齡友善的交通來把它置放在一個國家戰略的核心進行部會系統性的改造來跨部會來做一個處理跟整理有沒有這個可能"},{"start":8529.074,"end":8545.202,"text":"我們多年前就有透過一個高齡駕駛健康檢查跟評估制度從他本身的條件來做起那我們希望高齡 比方說我們曾經討論過除了耗資標示之外的這個加強之外如果早晨要不要給他身上有一個什麼樣的標示"},{"start":8546.547,"end":8570.816,"text":"地方政府執行多年這個成效都不好所以必須要找出其他的方式所以本席這邊建議在那個道安長照社福跟都市規劃的相關單位應該做一個跨部會的處理跟整合因為這些地方是高齡人口經常會去走動的那您剛才講的是時間上的問題那但是有沒有可能做一個高齡人口活動熱區的道路安全總體的一個檢討"},{"start":8573.297,"end":8599.251,"text":"然後至少我們讓他在生活上跟交通安全上能夠扣連在一起去減低高齡人口這個交通事故的一個比例這個部分可以嗎您的這個建議其實非常好我可以請運輸研究所來做這方面的研究如果在高齡者比較有在行動的熱區的部分我們對於當區的整體的交通該怎麼做改善我覺得這個應該會相當有意義"},{"start":8601.192,"end":8627.91,"text":"那這個部分我也提醒您是不是應該定一個改善的期程比如說哪一年你要做到高齡事故的一個減半計畫因為您剛才也投入了一些經費那或者是仿效國外的這個Vision Zero這樣子的一個零事故死亡的政策那可能期程要比較具體的訂定出來您如果投入的是四年的經費那短中長期大概每一段時間要進行到哪裡"},{"start":8628.69,"end":8657.658,"text":"我想比較具體這個部分我們其實是針對整體的行人安全跟整體的交通安全在做改善您剛剛所提醒的就是說針對高齡者要不要再做更特別的規劃這個部分我們會再規劃道安的比例也是非常高就是他們碰到事故的比例非常高就是機車老人跟酒駕都是相當高的一個造勢的狀態這個部分其實這幾年的改善"},{"start":8658.058,"end":8681.143,"text":"已經有看到一些成效也確實都在下降當中數據看起來都在下降當中但是您所提醒的高齡者的部分我們會另外再來做研究看怎麼樣再來提升他們的安全對 就針對這個部分可能要有一個具體的時程所以道路不只是移動的空間也是生活的延伸所以剛才本席才針對高齡者會活動的這些場域希望你們做一個總檢討跟整體的設計"},{"start":8683.183,"end":8703.343,"text":"好那您剛才其實也提到酒駕或者是我們未來要探討的一個危險駕駛的這個部分那111年警察交通執法與事故處理的滿意度調查其中很多人對於這個危險駕車有一些怨言那大概100人當中會有40人那依照警政署去年的一個"},{"start":8705.205,"end":8727.525,"text":"通報的統計危險駕車的汽車違規佔比有7乘5那麼不遵行方向行駛的機車違規佔比有8乘4那另外呢汽車佔比這個高項目的是危險駕車有75.32然後超出速限的有40公里以下的佔了72.79這一些數據其實代表了危險駕駛"},{"start":8728.826,"end":8743.46,"text":"跟危險駕車是民眾一直所在意的也凸現了我們的交通環境中危險車型的一個制度性問題那是不是目前你們有沒有在研議科技執法上以及提高刑責來產生嚇阻的一個作用呢"},{"start":8745.195,"end":8769.034,"text":"報告委員 這個部分科技執法其實警政署跟地方政府已經有在執行那執行看起來成效也都還不錯那另外就是說針對教育的層面我們也在做努力工程的層面我們也在做努力對 本席其實有做一個提案也是就是把那個交通安全的這個教育列到我們很基本的這個教育裡面讓大家對於空間開始慢慢有一些感覺跟看法"},{"start":8769.835,"end":8797.089,"text":"好那我引用一下交通部你們大灣司的這個相關的數據大型車的這個案件比去年同時期增加了137件那整體來講有13736件那這個的例子就跟去年東海大學的那個女大學生被輾過被大型車輾過的狀況一樣因為大型車有很多的死角那去年這個事故最主要是大型車沒有看到她又輾了一次結果"},{"start":8798.209,"end":8818.695,"text":"一條美麗的生命就這樣子沒有了所以大型客車的事故的致死率比一般汽車機車都來得高所以我們有沒有思考現行大型車輛駕駛訓練的標準能不能應付很多元的道路的狀況尤其是在繁忙的時間跟路段比較複雜行駛時的一個挑戰呢"},{"start":8821.274,"end":8849.355,"text":"報告委員 我們針對這個小型車跟大型車都一樣我們現在正在做這個整體駕訓的檢討駕訓機制所以也可能駕訓的這個部分會有一些調整當你駕訓的機制做檢討跟調整之後他之後的這個客運的司機駕駛啦他的整體的訓練就會不一樣那這是一方面那二方面我們針對公司也就是在監理的層面針對客運公司的要求也希望他們能夠落實到要求我們的客運的駕駛"},{"start":8850.476,"end":8867.649,"text":"對於一些我們新的規則的要求要落實那還有他們的開車習慣我們從司機的職開始做一個整體的調整跟改變那當然你們在外部的環境像你們要針對駕駛行為然後另外制度也是有一些需要改進的嘛"},{"start":8868.149,"end":8883.904,"text":"那道路的設計還有交通文化的這個部分我覺得這樣比較治本而不是只有治標所以你們是不是有制定長期的計畫特別是針對青少年跟新駕駛人的這個交通安全的宣導活動不知道你們有沒有這個短中長期的計畫"},{"start":8884.745,"end":8911.255,"text":"報告委員 這個計畫我們都有運研所前一陣子才做出一套系統我們針對國小跟國中跟高中用一種沉浸式的一個模式透過平板讓他學習在道路上包含走路要怎麼走 怎麼樣過馬路然後怎麼樣才會安全謝謝部長您剛才有提到包含騎摩托車也都有全部都有融入到教育的層面你有提到平板不過本席認為真正在實地空間的這樣一個模擬跟訓練是重要的"},{"start":8913.356,"end":8941.533,"text":"要不然有些東西我們看了但是碰到了實際的狀況那個反應是不一樣的我們在各個縣市其實也盡量在建設交通安全的學習的園區這個學習的園區就是要讓我們的年輕人或者是小朋友在那個園區可以學習到實際在道路上可能會遇到的狀況所以這一點把本席的建議納入進去對於空間的實際感覺是很重要的是 沒有錯好 謝謝"},{"start":8945.339,"end":8974.145,"text":"那接下來呢本席要為地方來請命因為過去本席在嘉義工作本席就發現因為常常有這樣子走動的機會所以呢嘉義市是目前全國唯一沒有跟高鐵連接的軌道城市那這個問題很久了那這個問題很奇怪的不是單純只有行政的問題喔而是中央對於區域交通的這個正義跟公義還有產業平衡的這個發展還有對歷史的承諾其實都有一點點狀況"},{"start":8975.545,"end":8998.363,"text":"所以高鐵嘉義市線是唯一沒有軌道連結的運輸系統你可以想像一個每年超過630萬人次的高鐵站竟然沒有一個軌道系統來連結不是很奇怪嗎這樣的斷點如果依照我們的了解是中央規劃有一些缺失還有長年政策的失衡的結果"},{"start":8999.304,"end":9022.432,"text":"其實交通部在民國88年就已經完成嘉義高鐵連外道路的可行性評估那也明確的表示呢當時高鐵局長明確的表示那個運量達到的之後呢就要進行鋪設結果行政院在94年更直接合附交通部來辦理BRT的階段性方案這就是我們目前在搭的"},{"start":9022.992,"end":9050.384,"text":"那這個BRT呢其實現在運量已經每一年都達到130萬人次尖峰時段還常常都客滿那本席也常常搭不到所以這個部分呢本席因為問了所以才發現那中央竟然說在這個軌道的部分要地方政府來分擔這似乎有一點奇怪不知道部長您對這個事情的看法如何報告委員輕軌系統跟捷運系統都是地方辦理事項所以各個縣市都一樣本席這邊可能先提醒"},{"start":9051.064,"end":9067.637,"text":"全國的高鐵的軌道系統應該大部分都是由中央這邊全額來負擔的這是依照大眾捷運法的第13條的這樣一個規定你們卻應該用這樣子的一個高度來看全國的一個軌道的網絡"},{"start":9071.319,"end":9089.358,"text":"但是BRT現在的運量已經足夠了嘛結果你們現在竟然叫他們用一個下位的審查作業要點的規範叫地方政府來做負擔我想這個部分針對所有的高鐵與連外的軌道似乎對嘉義縣市有一些不公平 您的看法呢"},{"start":9090.657,"end":9103.789,"text":"報告委員 這個其實各縣市都一樣只要是輕軌跟捷運系統但是它這個輕軌是從是高鐵延伸出去的一個網絡從高鐵嘉義站到台鐵嘉義站我想這個部分中央應該難辭其咎吧"},{"start":9105.151,"end":9118.973,"text":"您的看法呢報告委員這個部分當然嘉義縣市自己也要有共識因為目前我聽起來嘉義縣政府他們當然是樂觀其成但是對於經費上面他們也是有一些意見所以本席這邊提醒您"},{"start":9120.435,"end":9137.403,"text":"他的軌道像新竹的六家支線台中的捷運路線還有台南的沙崙支線還有機場線這些其實都是中央這個出資來興建的把嘉義縣市排除在外有點不公平是不是可以請你們再努力做一個討論規劃然後跟研議呢一個癥結 這個工程款是374億"},{"start":9142.915,"end":9159.188,"text":"如果中央可以負擔的話是工程款本身的372億地方只負責用地費用的0.66億跟嘉義縣的0.94億他們都不注意中央可以負擔372億但是連這樣都談不攏都要中央全額負擔"},{"start":9160.37,"end":9185.224,"text":"所以中央有沒有可能跟嘉義市這邊再來共同研議這樣一個的可能性等一下等一下那個院長 財化法是今年的事情那我們剛才談的其實是好幾年前的事好不好 做一個研議好嗎不要拿現在的變數把過去的東西都全部抹滅掉這我給你們一個建議啦 大家再來談談看好不好好 中央有一個"},{"start":9209.718,"end":9210.979,"text":"第二位"},{"start":9218.815,"end":9244.226,"text":"然後第二個很重要一點我上禮拜參加了聖戶蘭西遊客週期的開幕我要跟你們提醒的是雖然你們未來在公共藝術的意象上有原住民但是不要忘了原先的原住民的意象是非常明顯的本期在這邊跟你們討論跟建議原住民的意象不能小於之前的原住民的意象那是我們共同的記憶有沒有可能"},{"start":9248.254,"end":9269.822,"text":"謝謝林委員謝謝卓院長下一位請林佩祥委員質詢主席在場的媒體先進好朋友有請卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":9280.779,"end":9295.891,"text":"林委員好院長剛剛好剛剛前面是林倩琦委員在質詢那我記得沒有錯的話在4月29號的時候林委員也一樣的問到了同樣的一個問題本席是基隆市出來的立法委員那也剛好說"},{"start":9296.932,"end":9323.777,"text":"我們基隆市在2021年的時候我們的這個李楊跟王麒麟得到了第一面的奧運冠軍那2024年我們又纏連世界冠軍當時之前的蔡前總統跟賴總統都答應過要給我們基隆市的暖暖區一個羽球國手訓練中心那2021年到現在那我知道說林陽配都要退休了"},{"start":9324.497,"end":9346.837,"text":"那他們這次要宣布退休了可是我們這個羽球國手訓練中心仍是遙遙無期我想請問這個院長請問您知道這個案子嗎報告委員體育署跟羽球協會都有積極在辦理這件事情所以現在是針對國立基隆高中要興建一個羽球專項的一個訓練館經費也初步的核列是3.5億"},{"start":9348.123,"end":9365.82,"text":"要建12面的這個球場但是現在因為未來像這種不是單屬於學校的運動設施都會移給未來的運動部所以容許我們在運動部成立的時候會把它納入先期的計畫好 謝謝我希望說運動部如果可以的話我會希望說早一點讓它成型"},{"start":9366.621,"end":9394.566,"text":"我會納入新奇的計畫因為我會認為是說到目前雖然林洋沛已經退休了但是我們的羽球在國際之間還是相對比較起來算是一個強勢的運動那老實講中華民國台灣在世界上強勢運動並不多那我們也因為是強勢的運動所以我們有很多的國際人才來到我們台灣來去做這個羽球方面的訓練所以我想把這個好的已經獲得優勢的這個運動繼續把它持續下去"},{"start":9395.186,"end":9415.101,"text":"兩位國手雖然退休但他們為國家跟世界創造的歷史跟紀錄永遠深植人心我們一定會把這個事情很徹底的完成那如果運動部一旦成立那麻煩請這個當作請院長這邊承諾說我說我承諾我把它列為優先的項目也謝謝委員繼續的支持 謝謝那第二個案子就順便要有請陳士凱部長一起來這個案子其實是我"},{"start":9421.826,"end":9438.192,"text":"去年在交通委員會的時候有跟陳世凱部長提過但是我會認為說這個案子可能特地也要請院長支持因為這個案子可是當初我們在談論的時候是因為去年風災所以造成鐵路淹水然後造成說過去五年以來"},{"start":9439.168,"end":9457.36,"text":"這邊已經發生這個平交道已經發生了20起的交通事故其實很嚴重但是後來當我一直當我去回顧過去還有回顧說過去的一切這些這些不管是交通事故也好還是都市發展也好甚至有關台鐵的目前狀況的時候我跟陳士凱部長那時候也有提過"},{"start":9458.4,"end":9486.406,"text":"這個案子我會希望說我們真的能夠來推動雖然只是從外觀看起來只是單純的說鐵路外移從目前最容易淹水最容易發生事故的地方直接外移出去可能也要看我們交通部的交通部未來的規劃但是實質上如果成功的話我記得有其他委員在質詢的時候有關台鐵到台鐵霧點尤其是花東上來台鐵霧點的狀況其實是與其說我們增快速度"},{"start":9487.046,"end":9510.038,"text":"倒不如說我們減低霧點率倒不如說我們能夠用減低霧點率的方式來增加班次這個可能這種截彎取直的方式我想去年我們在 今年還是去年在交通委員會我們有討論過那我想在這邊就是請院長是否能夠贊成這個鐵路外移的計畫然後並指示交通部跟台鐵各相關單位好好來做一個可行性評估呢"},{"start":9511.128,"end":9539.982,"text":"請交通部先說明報告委員這個部分可能要連同我們目前短期先做的是讓他這個排水先做好不要發生淹水委員你有提到這個淹水的問題確實也是困擾著台鐵所以排水的部分我們先來努力短期來看是這個樣子那如果中長期的話因為如果是路線的遷移的話或者是外推的話有可能會牽涉到徵收或者是拆民房的問題這個問題會比較複雜一點所以我們在希望說有沒有可能"},{"start":9540.382,"end":9556.137,"text":"我們朝向整個這個立體化的可能性來討論這個部分可能會相對是務實一點那不過可行性研究的部分我們會願意來協助基隆市政府來辦理可行性研究如果他們認為可行的話他們先來做可行性研究我們一起來努力這一段"},{"start":9557.214,"end":9571.455,"text":"我是這邊比較期待說如果可以的話是由中央單位來做這個可行性評估因為這主要是整個台鐵而且這個台鐵的功能主要是說當然對基隆市絕對有幫助我是基隆的委員我當然要幫基隆多爭取一點"},{"start":9571.935,"end":9592.627,"text":"但是我們也知道說在北部目前我們遇到台鐵沒有不好目前台鐵的運行都還算不錯尤其是在台北應該是從桃園以北基本上都算是台鐵的黃金路線而且他們的營運也好不管是營利還是營運也好都是很好的但是最被人家詬病的反而是霧點綠"},{"start":9593.827,"end":9610.079,"text":"也就是有時候就是車子到了台北可是因為要讓其他的線先行那如果所以說我會覺得說與其說再重新建鐵路倒不如說結完曲直在基隆這一段我覺得結完曲直的措施是很可取的而且這個能夠實質上再不"},{"start":9612.02,"end":9635.999,"text":"在不去做大量的改動之前然後能夠把整個鐵路的運行變得更通暢我覺得這一點來講我會希望說我們能夠知道我們整個行政院的支持來去做這個計畫當然我是比較期待說如果可以的話我們在一年之內能夠提出所謂的可行性評估然後我們再來規劃一步一步規劃後面的規劃設計因為這一點來講"},{"start":9638.821,"end":9664.934,"text":"對於我個人來講當然我才是第一年的立法委員但是我的前輩們不管是之前的謝國良委員 劉文雄委員甚至徐少平委員 甚至王拓委員甚至張建華委員他們對這個案子其實曾經都有提過只是說我覺得現在已經到一個程度台鐵已經saturated已經飽和到一種程度我們是否可以利用這種方式來增加台鐵的使用率請問院長您認為呢報告委員"},{"start":9668.71,"end":9693.73,"text":"如果是立體化的話是可以比較徹底解決整體的問題如果是外移的話其實過去20年大家都在努力但是確實也遇到一些問題我剛剛有提過就是說有可能會遇到拆遷的問題也有可能會遇到用地的問題這個部分的問題其實不太容易克服如果容易克服的話應該早就已經移動了所以立體化的部分我們是這樣希望因為如果是立體化委員可以接受的話"},{"start":9694.65,"end":9712.577,"text":"通常立體化的可行性評估都是地方政府來做不過這個經費中央可以協助這個協助補助的部分我們會來協助那如果有關立體化有關更細節的有關更細節的有關立體化的一些計畫我可能麻煩交通部要跟我再多多聯繫一下"},{"start":9713.797,"end":9728.978,"text":"然後再來其實還是有關鐵路的議題那這個議題就相對比較大雖然只是單純是所謂的七堵到基隆之間的地下化但是實質上來講也是因為整個北台灣其實到目前為止"},{"start":9729.518,"end":9745.536,"text":"台灣的發展來講以北部從台北以北基本上來講從內湖、南港、汐止現在已經到另外一種整個產業跟土地都在飽和的狀態了但是如果說當我們仔細看這個所謂的北台灣河谷狼帶的時候"},{"start":9745.956,"end":9773.956,"text":"其實很重要的一塊就是鐵路其實把基隆很多最精華的地也甚至說未來可以產業發展地全部把它吃掉了而也是因為這一塊那如果我們可以做出所謂的鐵路地下化以前很多以前一般以前的這些基隆市民意代表他們提的鐵路地下化通常只是從八堵開始下去但是事實上來講我們知道以我自己的了解鐵路地下化如果從八堵下去的話其實這個"},{"start":9775.837,"end":9805.017,"text":"坡度是不夠的 變成說在起來的時候鐵路是無法起來的所以必須從更遠的地方這樣去做但是從七堵下去的時候所騰出來的空地剛好也可以幫我們北台灣各方面的科技園區我記得當初有一個所謂的北台灣海洋門戶科技計畫之類的我記得好像是在前瞻計畫裡面曾經提過那這方面當初是以鐵路旁邊所有的地來去做規劃但是如果我們把鐵路拿掉"},{"start":9806.037,"end":9832.376,"text":"不只是對基隆市對整個北台灣的發展在未來都很有前瞻性是真正的前瞻性因為當我們看到內湖南港天天在塞車天天產業都想記住內湖南港但是在繼續往下發展的時候沒有地那變成是說北台灣的發展就到此為止嗎還是說因為一個鐵路的存在而沒有辦法繼續讓我們產業整塊地都變得很漂亮如果只是單純的以河谷的發展來講的話這從"},{"start":9834.777,"end":9855.242,"text":"內湖、南港、汐止帶來到五堵在五堵、七堵、基隆這整片地出來的時候這才是我們期待看到的從基隆為台灣頭來控整塊直接變成一個我們台灣的亮點但是這一點現在因為過去鐵路的發展在我們中華民國的發展史上有絕對有很大的功勞"},{"start":9857.543,"end":9877.699,"text":"但是現在似乎要轉型的時候所以這邊的話我這邊正式在這邊提出說能不能請金正恩好好考慮從基隆市到七堵之間台北、七堵、基隆從七堵這邊直接鐵路地下化之後把這邊我們看到所有的廊帶把它空出來"},{"start":9878.579,"end":9888.649,"text":"為什麼我對這件事情我非常的上心因為如果成功的話我常常有一個比較不好的比喻就是說基隆市的臉是有一條疤的"},{"start":9889.74,"end":9914.633,"text":"這條巴叫做鐵路變成基隆市的市容我想 卓院長我們第一次認識的時候是在基隆我是在站入口 你看我過來這邊拜票那士凱兄就不用講 你是怕誰怕誰我就不用講那麼多但是我們都覺得說基隆一個低山傍海的城市為什麼會看到說 怎麼覺得有點缺陷其實缺陷的原因就是說基隆市的市容其實被這個鐵路一分為二"},{"start":9915.66,"end":9941.547,"text":"變成說因為有鐵路的存在所以變成是基隆市的發展沒有辦法變成很完整的這塊地這句話是當初以前已故的張榮發張總裁跟我提過他說基隆市很可惜他一直都說你從31號橋上面左右看的時候你會看到基隆市市中心有很大的一塊地同樣的你從七堵那邊看的時候你也發現說如果能夠把鐵路拿開的話我們整塊地的規劃會是不一樣"},{"start":9942.787,"end":9970.534,"text":"從我的角度來看的話當然我們知道說七堵的鐵路如果拿開之後不只是對捷運比較方便對於整個城市發展比較方便但是這一塊如果真的拿開因為以前不敢做不是不行只是以前不敢做因為鐵路的依賴性還夠但是當我們知道現在鐵路的依賴性已經慢慢慢慢減少成通勤的時候其實我們可以考慮說能不能就直接從七堵站開始直接往下挖到基隆火車站"},{"start":9971.254,"end":9984.165,"text":"這樣來做的時候這整塊地各位這整塊地你要做TOD也好你要做捷運站也好你要去發展產業也好你要去做社會住宅也好你要去發展任何的工業任何的產業都很有機會因為這塊地夠大"},{"start":9987.253,"end":10013.056,"text":"如果說仔細看的話從薩契亞那邊一過山洞之後整塊地所謂的都市對於基隆市對我一個基隆長大的小孩來講都市縫合把這個鐵路拿掉把我們市容恢復讓基隆整塊來做開發我認為這是我覺得說我身為基隆人我在這邊一定要建請我們行政院好好納入考量的地方甚至如果您贊同我的想法把北台灣做大"},{"start":10014.17,"end":10043.272,"text":"只要把鐵路地下化我們真的有機會把北台灣做大我們現在看到的瓶頸就是到了汐止之後好像沒什麼地了那如果說基隆可以發展起來旁邊的七星區金山萬里九份瑞芳金瓜石這邊全部都會在一起起來因為以基隆為一個hub老實講我想士凱兄也知道基隆本身就是這個七星區的hub如果基隆發展起來再輻射出去的時候那不管是說金山萬里也好還是瑞芳貢寮也好未來發展性才有"},{"start":10044.38,"end":10070.575,"text":"那這一塊如果說我們真的要再去做大眾運輸工具不管捷運還是輕軌如果沒有地那都很可惜可是現在這塊地在哪裡在鐵路上面但如果鐵路不是不要鐵路我完全不認同說所謂捷運換台鐵這句話我完全不能認同因為這樣子是無法把城市縫合而且實質上來講對大眾運輸的效用不彰但是如果鐵路地下化"},{"start":10071.866,"end":10087.377,"text":"其實對於不是只有單單純純對大眾運輸而已而是對於我們台灣整個的發展就會變得不一樣院長您認為是這樣嗎謝謝委員從各國的發展來看軌道建設如果單靠交通的建設來營運很辛苦"},{"start":10087.725,"end":10102.422,"text":"它靠的一定是周遭的物業管理跟整體開發所以我們已經有這個鐵路平交道跟環境改善建設跟周邊土地開發計畫的一個整個作業標準但是我知道七堵段的地下化"},{"start":10103.843,"end":10129.441,"text":"這應該要由市政府先來做可行性評估我所知道目前消防部說明一下是不是還沒有啟動這樣的可行性評估消防部說明一下沒有錯其實跟委員報告我剛剛有說過就是鐵路的立體化不管是高架或者是地下化這個部分都必須要先做可行性評估而可行性評估的啟動單位其實是地方政府那如果地方政府願意啟動這樣子的計畫我們就有機會來討論這件事情"},{"start":10130.922,"end":10150.701,"text":"那吸堵的部分相對特別一點因為委員是基隆在地的也很清楚您會提到那塊地就是因為我們旁邊還有一個台鐵的吊車場所以才會有一塊很大的用地不是只有單純一個鐵軌經過而已所以這個吊車場也是我們必須要評估的一個議題就是吊車場如果不在那裡那我們要設在哪裡"},{"start":10151.895,"end":10170.374,"text":"當然如果你的軌道地下化之後吊車廠要整個地下化的機率是不高但是要找地方所以這個部分沒有關係議題可以一個一個來解套想辦法但是啟動的部分要拜託委員也跟市政府提一下如果他們願意啟動我們是願意來補助這個可行性評估的經費的"},{"start":10172.233,"end":10187.459,"text":"為什麼本席會把這件事很上心我的個性是我不喜歡去占人家便宜就算是已經走掉的人這個是當初劉文雄委員我記得沒有說話第一個我聽到是劉文雄委員我不知道張建華委員有沒有提"},{"start":10192.761,"end":10206.645,"text":"這個案子如果能夠成功的話我們都希望基隆市能夠完全的改頭換面但是老實說基隆市我記得沒有錯的話基隆市100塊土地裡面有94塊山坡地只有6塊平地6塊平地裡面有3塊是"},{"start":10209.374,"end":10222.638,"text":"港務局跟港務公司的所以說這一點來講我們就很有這個必要性去想辦法去生地出來所以當我聽到這個計畫的時候我希望我的自己的故鄉能夠變更漂亮我也希望說這個故鄉大家來的時候"},{"start":10225.379,"end":10255.122,"text":"大家能夠喜歡 能夠開心更重要是說整個都市的發展老實講如果沒有地有再先進的技術有再先進的觀念其實對這個城市都不會有幫助而目前來講北台灣我個人認為我們在北台灣的發展已經到一個瓶頸也就是說真的因為地理環境地形就是這樣子路廊就是這樣你不管在哪個地方北台灣的發展程度在其他國家也是比較起來我去過的國家裡面"},{"start":10255.442,"end":10283.942,"text":"也算是非常非常的saturated就是非常非常擁擠的所以說如果我們台灣要再去把自己的餅做大尤其在北台灣可能基隆的發展尤其是我們剛剛提這個地下化地下化的目的就是把地空出來那不管是基於商業利益還是基於說城市發展還是基於說未來整個生活型態的改變我覺得這一塊來講我們都不能忽視因此我會把這件事情在這個總質詢的時候特技拿出來談"},{"start":10284.983,"end":10305.689,"text":"好 再來其實是另外一個議題其實這個議題就更大了一點也就是我是基隆人那基隆市的存在是因為基隆港但是基隆市跟基隆港兩邊其實的關係其實很特別理論上應該是共生但是因為當初這個"},{"start":10308.01,"end":10328.432,"text":"中央政府跟地方政府他們的港務局我記得沒有錯到目前為止港務公司跟航港局還是立處於中央那跟其他的國家不一樣其他的國家我記得像是洛杉磯還是洛杉磯跟香港還有巴塞隆納他們三個都是四港合一"},{"start":10329.193,"end":10355.362,"text":"那我知道說有很多時空背景有很多歷史淵源所以四港合一這件事情在台灣不容易被執行但是四港雖然不能在行政命令上面合一但是在於發展上面應該是趨於一致所以說這邊就想請問部長說未來針對基隆港的發展請問部長跟請問院長請問您對基隆港未來的發展你有什麼想像"},{"start":10356.442,"end":10384.687,"text":"基隆港最近幾年的變化相當的大尤其是成為若干這個郵輪的母港之後它未來的加速建設成為必要的途徑所以軍港西遷之後移出來的這個威海營區將來我們也是在今年就開始要做一些相關的可行性評估希望在四年之後它能夠就整個營區做整體規劃上面就能夠開始事半營運那細節的部分是不是交通部要補充"},{"start":10385.569,"end":10411.249,"text":"是 報告委員 威海營區你也相當熟 應該是從小看到大那目前這塊地我們確實要做BOT的這個促參的這個案子啦那交通部也已經授權給這個航港局來做這方面的進行那目前也有一些進度我們在114年 也就是今年的4月30號已經召開過公聽會做都市計畫的審查的部分要開始做作業啦那另外我們也跟基隆市政府其實有共組這個"},{"start":10412.67,"end":10438.971,"text":"推動的小組推動的小組目前正在規劃說這塊地未來要怎麼樣運用會比較好因為基隆的腹地小像委員剛剛所提的他的腹地確實是不夠非常小那他需要其實基隆的鄉親需要很多的商業空間觀光客也需要很多的採購也好或者是餐飲的空間甚至是旅宿的空間這些都是會納入我們這塊BOT的想像裡面那目前正在推動當中"},{"start":10441.643,"end":10467.953,"text":"謝謝院長跟部長的回答為什麼會把這件事特地提出來因為我那個時候參加這個就在4月30號有參加他這個BOT的公聽會公聽會本身的內容我其實沒有意見不太大但是我比較擔心的事情就是在於說因為我自己在港務公司待過我在港務公司五六年那我那時候就是做國際行銷的我想部長應該是我們曾經在去年在交通委員會裡面常常聊到這一塊但是"},{"start":10469.278,"end":10496.28,"text":"因為我們另外一方面因為說現在我們的觀光其實不好意思我們今天就不要再談觀光目前觀光產業變成觀光產業這件事情那這件事情是我們所有人的痛但是也另外一方面證實了我曾經聽過的一句話說你如果一個城市只把觀光拿來做最主要的這個經濟引擎的話會有很高的風險因為你不知道什麼時候觀光客不來"},{"start":10497.657,"end":10511.657,"text":"老實講這就是為什麼我覺得現在台灣也好 基隆也好我們現在我們常講說我們要發展觀光發展觀光是好事但是如果發展觀光的話尤其是在水岸開發的話你沒有人潮你就沒有錢潮"},{"start":10512.625,"end":10539.59,"text":"而如果以水萬開發來講的話怎麼樣讓當地的居民能夠多involve能夠多進來這個場域裡面然後甚至願意多消費但是怎麼樣形式的消費那其實是我們之後再來討論的但是他們只要有意願多來你有人潮你才會有錢潮如果說你連local的人都不來的話你就不可能讓全國的人過來"},{"start":10540.51,"end":10557.886,"text":"如果你全國的人不來的話你就不會讓外國人過來所以變成是說我們在我自己在港澳公司曾經在任職的時候我們在去做整個交通規劃的時候在做整個交通規劃的時候我就很納悶就是說很多人會把這個郵輪母港這件事情把它放得很重"},{"start":10558.286,"end":10585.699,"text":"但是事實上來講我去過巴塞隆納、新加坡、香港跟好幾個地方的郵輪母港基本上那邊都是沒有人的甚至我記得好像是去年的五月份的新聞香港啟德碼頭香港啟德郵輪碼頭已經證實他們的使用率太低變成是說他們這一塊很有可能他們要放棄變成這個是他們啟德碼頭是本來啟德機場重新建出來的他們變成郵輪碼頭之後但是營運不佳"},{"start":10587.66,"end":10603.885,"text":"不是他們不努力請不要懷疑說香港嚴格講起來他們的Fly Crew這個方面都比我們強太多但是尷尬的是說游輪碼頭就是當下的人很多他們也不想留 馬上就離開所以當我一直聽到說要跟游輪母港去做連結的時候其實我很擔心"},{"start":10604.565,"end":10622.231,"text":"因為基隆這個東1到東6到東8碼頭未來如果說真的都沒有郵輪母港的話那其實有一天沒一天我們都知道郵輪季可能就是週末有人可是平常沒人但是既然我們要發展的話或許把它拿來當郵輪母港"},{"start":10622.931,"end":10651.643,"text":"或許我覺得要請行政院再三考量以前我在這邊在基隆市議會講這些話的時候我都直接被我的同僚說你不要懷疑中央的政策但是我在這邊身為一個基隆人我一定要提出來如果說與其成為遊輪母港倒不如說你變成油氣港尤其變成水岸開發讓大家變成有清水空間清水的環境那個其實比較有商機那個也對於整個港口比較負責"},{"start":10652.803,"end":10679.888,"text":"基隆港其實有很多從過去到現在基隆港除了原物料沒有從基隆港上之外就是像大理石之類從花蓮港之外基隆港什麼功能都有軍港 商港 漁港 油氣港你想到什麼都有什麼但是也尷尬的就是基隆港很小基隆港其實真的很小所以這一點來講我們今天不用去談說需不需要再去dredging需不需要再去做巡深的動作但是只是單純的如果以水岸開發來講尤其是說"},{"start":10682.765,"end":10709.015,"text":"我記得上禮拜中森跟康榮也就是日本的國會議員剛好他們有幸來基隆然後我們有在聊到他說基隆給他感覺真的蠻像Yokohama像橫濱的感覺因為全世界很少有幾個港口有幾個城市港口就在城市中心然後船直接進來但是尷尬的就是說我說基隆可以變Yokohama也可以變Baltimore就是巴爾蒂摩巴爾蒂摩其實做得沒有很好"},{"start":10711.319,"end":10717.676,"text":"這點來講為什麼這邊特意提出來就要請行政院去考慮說我們到底要成為什麼樣的海港城市"},{"start":10718.462,"end":10743.209,"text":"因為海洋國家門戶北部海洋國家門戶這句話其實有點重但是如果說北部海洋國家門戶我們希望他長得什麼樣子那我們希望是什麼樣呈現說不只是說其實我還是回到一句話如果觀光只做外國客的話那對本國客其實我們台灣消費能力其實不差但是如何他們願意回來的時候在基隆也可以消費"},{"start":10744.289,"end":10767.568,"text":"而不是都跑到台北消費那我覺得可能全台灣各縣市都有一樣的問題很多人最後面除非距離太遠超過一個小時或兩個小時這樣車程不然都選擇來台北消費不在本地消費這個是我認為觀光上面可能是大家的痛因為觀光到最後面就是surprise story and spending就是你要給人家驚喜你要給人家故事最後面你讓人家花錢"},{"start":10769.076,"end":10791.895,"text":"但是台灣來講可能台北以外都沒有辦法完全去滿足國際旅客這方面的需求那如果說今天我在講基隆的時候就知道我就想請行政院說郵輪母港沒有不好我不是說郵輪母港不好但是郵輪母港的成分能不能少一點舉例海港城我指的是香港的海港城香港的海港城商場"},{"start":10792.856,"end":10810.276,"text":"他們並不是遊輪母港,他們只是剛好那個碼頭夠深可以停在小遊輪而已,他們主要還是商業。那主要才是商業之外,他們很多local people,很多在地的人會去那邊消費,這才是我會認為水安開發他們可以做的事情。請問部長認為未來應該怎麼樣去處理呢?"},{"start":10812.959,"end":10828.856,"text":"基隆是一個很典型的可以港式合一的它唯一的缺點就是腹地真的太小所以現在把軍港移走之外需要多一點腹地再來基隆跟它背後的台北新北尤其台北這個國際性的大都市"},{"start":10830.016,"end":10856.606,"text":"會帶來一些更大的吸引力我們還是希望說當然除了郵輪母港之外它還有其他尤其是未來我們首都圈黃金狼帶北北基於四個縣市合貫起來我們的六大區域產業生活圈首都圈叫做北北基於是首都圈黃金狼帶裡面有科技有觀光有商業有文化等等都會在裡面基隆是一個門戶台北最大的困難就是台北沒有領海沒有領域港口"},{"start":10857.006,"end":10881.461,"text":"基隆將來就是可能台北對外的重大的門戶那基於很多細方細細的這個布局跟步驟我們都一步一步在推動部長報告委員您說的沒有錯啦其實基隆港的商業的需求還是很大我們客運像郵輪港來講的話客運大概只佔它整體收入的5%大部分的還是以貨運為主"},{"start":10882.967,"end":10910.598,"text":"那委員在思考的應該也是跟我思考的差不多就是說基隆的在地的鄉親其實也需要很多的商業空間包含購買包含用餐甚至是不要說是郵輪來的客人是台灣國內的客人也需要一些旅宿的需求比如說台中或高雄來的這個旅客可以有飯店可以住所以優先應該是思考的是說在地的人的需求跟台灣本土的旅客的需求當然"},{"start":10911.538,"end":10923.185,"text":"我們靠近郵輪港的旁邊我們的碼頭設施也相當的健全我們也希望能夠吸引到國外的旅客來到台灣搭乘郵輪來到台灣之後可以進去消費所以順序上大概是這個樣子跟委員報告"},{"start":10924.672,"end":10947.273,"text":"既然剛剛院長都提到說這個黃金狼帶,那我認真覺得說我會建請基隆市政府盡快提出說基隆到七堵之間的鐵路地下化這個案子,因為老實講地真的不夠,如果又要發展科技,又要發展產業,又要發展各方面,要符合所有這個北北基加起來的人口應該是超過800萬人,"},{"start":10948.574,"end":10976.145,"text":"應該差不多會超過800萬人700到800萬人左右那等於台灣將近三分之一以上那如果是這種情況之下的話我們就很需要說多一點土地來去做區域發展跟都市發展甚至國家發展都跑不掉所以這一點我可能回去還是要跟既然今天院長跟部長都提了說如果地方政府願意做可行性評估那我們願意幫忙的話那我會回去要跟金融市政府來做溝通那另外一方面就是"},{"start":10977.285,"end":11002.123,"text":"比較尷尬的就是我也知道基隆港的收入5%甚至其實搞不好更低就是說來自遊行客的傳播停泊費之類的但是也不免俗就是說未來像譬如說我們現在有很多其他的方向是說能不能去正視這些其他的業者那當然是說內客外貨但是我也必須在這邊最後的一分鐘要提到一個很嚴肅的議題就是假設從東一到東八碼頭"},{"start":11006.906,"end":11031.331,"text":"未來都要做商業發展的話這個對基隆市是絕對的好事但是這搞不好也是在基隆市在我剛剛提的鐵路地下化之前唯一的機會能夠改頭換面因為那是在基隆市的中心所有的船跟高速公路跟所有的產業都可以直接在這個從東一到東八我猜記得差不多三到四千公尺"},{"start":11032.051,"end":11049.727,"text":"平方公尺這塊可能沒那麼高就差不多這塊地而且旁邊就是基隆市政府那基隆市政府跟港如果能夠合起來去做聯合開發去好好做事的話會有很多不同的價值跟創意會出來但是也是尷尬的點就是說也只有這塊地"},{"start":11050.973,"end":11073.453,"text":"也只有這塊地是完整的一塊地十年前我還是一介平民的時候我就曾經提議過這是最後一塊基隆最後一塊的處女地可以好好發展產業那既然這塊地是目前是在行政院交通部手上那我就建請我們行政院好好跟基隆市政府通力合作把這塊地變成基隆未來可以改頭換面很重要的一塊"},{"start":11076.158,"end":11100.393,"text":"好,報告委員,這個部分我會跟基隆市政府好好來協商,看這個未來的發展應該怎麼樣規劃好,謝謝謝謝委員好,謝謝林委員,謝謝卓會長報告院會,交通組織質詢已詢答完畢,休息五分鐘休息之後進行司法及法制組織質詢,現在休息"},{"start":11426.209,"end":11433.051,"text":"抱怨會現在繼續開會進行司法及法治組織諮詢請黃委員國昌諮詢謝謝主席 麻煩有請卓院長請卓院長備詢"},{"start":11462.308,"end":11487.539,"text":"莊委好卓院長好司法法制組的總執行之後我一個人登記在邁入今天的主題以前先確認一件事情昨天匯率的波動賴總統親上火線說明其中最值得大家關注的事情是賴總統承諾有關於匯率絕對不會成為台美接下來有關於關稅談判的範圍這件事情行政院會不會確實執行"},{"start":11489.11,"end":11496.28,"text":"完全依照這個原則就先前談判的過程我們也是未來也不會把匯率納入整個談判的範圍對不對"},{"start":11497.435,"end":11517.706,"text":"上一次的談判沒有牽涉到涉及未來的,不會把他納入範圍,對不對?未來我們不敢在這裡斷言不敢在這邊斷言,所以昨天賴總統講的是空話嗎?未來什麼時候會談到什麼事情,我們不敢在這裡斷言可是賴總統講得很清楚啦,匯率不會成為台美有關於經貿談判的範圍啊這個事情現在卓院長改口了嗎?"},{"start":11522.655,"end":11547.293,"text":"這個是昨天賴總統講的啊他是說上一次的會談所以未來不排除有可能會在範圍是嗎我們沒有對未來做任何的想像現在果然關心的就是這件事情嘛匯率會不會成為台美接下來金牌談判的範圍不管未來談判是不是有我們現在針對匯率所以現在不敢承諾就對了嗎所以現在不敢承諾就對了嗎把事情說清楚就好了啦承諾不承諾的問題"},{"start":11548.374,"end":11563.372,"text":"這未來的事情我現在就問嘛 你說過去沒有嘛那我說你可不可以承諾未來不會有你現在沒有辦法承諾 事情就這麼簡單嘛我有說錯嗎這不是一刀兩面的問題沒有關係啦 我相信喔今天剛剛左院長的說明啊把賴總統的意思講得非常清楚了"},{"start":11567.477,"end":11581.289,"text":"賴總統有沒有做這樣的承諾全體國人可以去評判但有一件事情是非常清楚的我們會高度的掌握談判的過程會確保國家的利益那個主席啊是不是可以請院長等我問完問題再回答"},{"start":11581.809,"end":11604.057,"text":"他這樣子一直插話恐怕不是很有禮貌吧我們相互尊重好謝謝不過有一件事情賴總統應該是清楚的承諾啦2024總統大選以前賴總統承諾要針對有關於司法改革特別是司改國是會議接下來是不是有落實要建立一個常設性的司法改革委員會這個委員會什麼時候會成立"},{"start":11606.246,"end":11621.203,"text":"司法改革是隨時在進行的我們對司法改革的過程我們也知道這個承諾有沒有人要履行也不知道我們會依照沒有期限這個部分不是單是行政院可以處理的我們跟司法院還有高度的合作"},{"start":11621.703,"end":11636.798,"text":"因為我問不到賴總統所以我只能請教你嘛這個是賴總統做的承諾白紙黑字有歷史紀錄毫無疑問嘛屬於行政院的我們在法務部系統我們會就內部趕快來做更多的精進所以現在全體的國人沒有任何的機會可以請教我們的賴清德總統"},{"start":11643.291,"end":11655.577,"text":"你選前承諾全民的常設性的司法改革委員會有沒有要履行有沒有要兌現現在大家不知道嘛卓院長也沒有辦法幫賴總統回答嘛是這樣嗎"},{"start":11656.789,"end":11683.681,"text":"司法改革我們隨時都在改革都在進行是啊現在我在問的是政見要不要履行嘛政見要不要履行嘛政見要不要履行就是賴總統可以決定的我有說錯嗎這麼具體的事情到現在還在講空話賴總統選前所有的政見我們都一一在履行當中這個有履行嗎設在哪裡清楚的跟國人講啊大聲清楚跟國人講這個有履行嗎設在哪裡"},{"start":11685.251,"end":11711.839,"text":"這並非只有行政院的權責 我們還要尊重沒有關係 我接下來問行政院權責可以做的事情 兩公約第四次的國家報告什麼時候可以提出來兩公約第四次的國家報告絕對是行政院的權責什麼時候可以提出來如果我們原來有按定的時程我們就按照原來的時程提出所以什麼時候要提出來我看到原來的時程是什麼時候再跟委員報告你也不是很清楚喔"},{"start":11713.066,"end":11723.397,"text":"你怎麼自己的施政報告自己都不熟啊我們如果有按照原來施政我們就提出來這是你的施政報告我們就按照那個施政提出來2025年6月要提出來"},{"start":11724.694,"end":11745.033,"text":"會準時提出來嗎我們如果有按照時程在宣布的話就按照時程提出來不是啦你敢在寫在施政報告的內容你自己要清楚嘛要不然立委沒有信心啊現在都不知道這個施政報告是誰提出來的嘛我為什麼要特別問兩公約的國家人權報告因為我們花了很多納稅人的錢"},{"start":11746.84,"end":11772.21,"text":"做國家報告找國際專家來審查但大家很困惑啊花了這麼多錢做國家報告找國際專家來審查真的有在落實嗎國際專家一而再再而三質疑的事情行政院好像是言者遵遵聽者渺渺沒有落實也沒有關係啊我這樣講很抽象我現在邁入具體的事情2008年的時候"},{"start":11774.231,"end":11802.942,"text":"賴清德總統那個時候時任民主進步黨立法院黨團幹事長他有沒有針對民進黨第一次執政的時候沒有修改極右惡法向台灣社會道歉有沒有你也不知道沒有關係我準備好了來賴清德代表民進黨黨團向社會大眾致歉廢除極右惡法持續撂票那個時候的賴清德講了多麼動人的一段話他說"},{"start":11804.113,"end":11816.034,"text":"我要代表民主進步黨團向台灣社會大眾致歉過去我們主張報備制可是執政的時候沒有回應在野的訴求這是民進黨的不對"},{"start":11818.527,"end":11845.128,"text":"我們現在雖然成為在野黨但是不能推諉謝哲現在的執政黨如果還是用以前的藉口當藉口就會步入過去執政黨的後塵我在此提出特別語重心長的呼籲這個語重心長的呼籲不是我說的是賴清德總統說的現在關鍵的問題來啦針對自由合法這件事情行政院有要推動修正嗎"},{"start":11847.099,"end":11856.949,"text":"目前我們沒有談論到這個話題目前沒有談論到這個話題好 那第二個問題我們目前的集會遊行二法有沒有違反公正公約"},{"start":11859.805,"end":11887.836,"text":"這個我們花納稅的錢做國家人權報告的審查結論很清楚啊我們目前的集合二法有沒有違反公正公約公正公約我提醒卓院長已經成為國內法了而且具有優惠的效力有沒有違反公正公約我們的集合法依照我國的國情目前的執行現在狀況是如此有沒有違反公正公約如果有進一步的檢討的時候我們會廣聽社會大眾共同的意見哇你們廣聽社會大眾的意見非常久啦"},{"start":11889.516,"end":11912.075,"text":"2008年的時候跟台灣社會道歉2025年的時候現在翻臉不認人啊現在我為什麼特別提出質詢這還不是喔這一點我不如委員這還不是喔過去別人講的話記得那麼清楚對自己講的話也應該記得很清楚現在針對有關於政治承諾有沒有履行是一回事嗎有沒有違反法律的規定是另外一回事嗎"},{"start":11913.186,"end":11941.697,"text":"我說啦拿了納稅人的錢做了國家人權的審查報告找了國際的專家來審查最後的結論是什麼來我帶卓院長複習一下公正公約第21條的規定第一次的國家人權報告我們目前的勤惠遊行法違反公正公約第21條的規定許可制應該改成報配制禁制區要重新的檢討"},{"start":11942.793,"end":11960.922,"text":"自由法29條的刑罰違反公正公約21條的規定這都不是我說的這是我們的國家報告說的我們國家報告早就說了這件事啊我們花了納稅人的錢從民進黨2017年開始做第一次的國際審查報告2017年做國際審查報告的時候國際專家就在問啊他說你們"},{"start":11966.26,"end":11988.637,"text":"第一次的國家報告就承認違反公正公約啊你們承認違反公正公約又沒有要修法現在是在做什麼找國際專家來審查有何意義沒有意義啊自己的報告說違反公正公約國際專家問什麼時候要改我們的政府雙手一攤現在沒有要推動是這樣嗎請部長回答"},{"start":11991.051,"end":12010.516,"text":"是這樣嗎這個委員關心的這些的問題齁那個第四次的國家審查報告是在下個月就會出來了那我想這部分應該有第二次的國家審查報告第三次的國家審查報告我剛所講的國際專家的質疑有說錯嗎這國家專家的質疑這部分我們會做一個檢討嘛會做一個檢討 對嘛所以我現在的問題就來了嘛"},{"start":12016.889,"end":12021.014,"text":"法務部部長說的正正有詞我們會檢討我現在的問題就來了從2017年檢討到現在"},{"start":12025.58,"end":12035.045,"text":"從2017年檢討到現在我有說錯嗎所以從2017年廣納到現在喔從2017年廣納到2025年喔是不是要廣納到2032年你們當初在回應國際審查專家的時候是說什麼這要廣納社會意見啊違反公正公約那我們就違反那要不然你要怎麼樣"},{"start":12051.929,"end":12078.658,"text":"是這種態度嗎是這種態度嗎委員 至少我們承認當初說過的話我們不會去否認我們自己過去說過的話是啊然後呢 但是你沒有要做啊已經在檢討啊從2017年檢討到現在繼續檢討來 我告訴你國際審查專家講什麼講說到底是出於什麼原因還沒有修訂為什麼沒有修"},{"start":12080.041,"end":12104.783,"text":"這是2021年第三次國際審查的時候所提出來的第二次做國家報告、做國際審查的時候花了多少錢?部長知不知道?這個我沒有資料沒關係我告訴你,花了614萬第三次找國際專家來,花了多少錢知不知道?你也沒有資料沒關係我都幫你準備好了,783萬"},{"start":12107.042,"end":12120.909,"text":"每一次花納稅人的錢花幾百萬花了以後找國際審查專家來大拜拜拜拜完了出了報告報告告訴你該修沒有修這個我不會同意委員說講什麼大拜拜啦"},{"start":12122.157,"end":12146.704,"text":"對嘛 如果不是大霸敗的話國際審查專家問的問題你們當初在回應的時候是像你今天在這邊這樣子的態度嗎是不是嘛你當初在回應國際審查專家的時候要不要把你今天在這邊回應記錄的話老老實實的第四次國際審查的時候就把你今天的話老老實實的告訴國際審查專家"},{"start":12148.684,"end":12171.104,"text":"我民進黨政府就是這個態度就是沒有要修嘛那要不然你要怎麼樣不是嗎來 再來洩密給外國跟洩密給中國中華人民共和國對台灣的國家安全造成極大的威脅一天到晚在恐嚇台灣要侵略台灣的中華人民共和國非常可惡"},{"start":12172.547,"end":12198.452,"text":"洩密給中華人民共和國相較於要洩密給其他外國應該要加重處罰院長贊不贊成部長我問過他了啦他的答案在立法院裡面都有記錄但我沒有機會問你來 請院長請院長對不起 主席請你制止部長現在我在請教的是院長部長在旁邊一直插話這樣不好嗎請院長回覆"},{"start":12200.318,"end":12220.963,"text":"跟委員說明 泄密本身是一個行為泄密給任何一個人 我覺得他不應該有太大的差距尤其是如果泄密給一個敵境外的敵對勢力 他應該加重對嘛 泄密給境外敵對勢力應該要加重嘛我要的就是這個態度嘛因為我覺得很奇怪"},{"start":12222.113,"end":12244.489,"text":"我從很早以前第一次當立委的時候國家親密保護法我提案限密給中國就要加重處罰結果那時候跳出來反對的叫邱泰山修國安法的時候我又再主張一次跳出來反對的是柯建民現在民進黨政府說要從國安無法到國安實法"},{"start":12245.632,"end":12273.603,"text":"其中國家安全法很重要就國家安全法的部分目前沒有任何行政院的版本行政院會不會提版本行政院會不會提版本因為國家安全很重要嘛國家安全法現在有漏洞嘛要把它補起來嘛但我們現在在內政委員會審的時候我沒有看到行政院的版本行政院會不會提版本因為委員有提了相當多的版本朝野黨團的委員朝野各委員有提相當多的版本"},{"start":12274.093,"end":12298.322,"text":"如果這個版本綜合起來到最後我們認為跟行政院的原來的構思想法跟設計是差不多一樣的話我們可以就這個版本來做討論好針對目前民進黨立委所提出來的版本有哪一個版本針對洩密給中國提高刑度相較其他國家更重的有哪一個版本有這樣的設計這個黨團還在討論當中現在黨團還在討論沒有啊現在所提出來的版本已經境內政委會審查啦"},{"start":12303.084,"end":12328.421,"text":"審查就是一個討論的過程所以現在在審查裡面的版本有哪一個版本有針對中國有提高處罰的審查就是一個討論的過程是啊 所以我問你嘛有哪一個版本有針對泄密給中國相較於其他外國有更重刑度的有嗎沒有的話就可以再來檢討要如何來改善 對嘛所以我才問嘛你行政院要不要提版本出來事情就這麼簡單啊第三個事情"},{"start":12329.703,"end":12353.97,"text":"針對有關於棄保潛逃、妨礙司法公正在你的施政報告裡面也有寫我相信院長應該對自己的施政報告很清楚我每次問法務部棄保潛逃、妨礙司法公正那個時候所做的承諾到底什麼時候要提院板出來法務部永遠都是說他們已經提給行政院行政院什麼時候會提"},{"start":12355.13,"end":12355.851,"text":"好,謝謝黃委員,謝謝卓院長"},{"start":12384.653,"end":12393.579,"text":"法院會司法及法治組織諮詢已詢答完畢下午2點15分處理臨時提案下午2點30分繼續開會進行社會福利及衛生環境組織諮詢現在休息"},{"start":15176.196,"end":15177.551,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":20680.709,"end":20686.387,"text":"歡迎回我們現在繼續開會我們處理臨時提案每位委員發言時間一分鐘我們先請圖權級委員請發言"},{"start":20702.978,"end":20732.244,"text":"桃園國際機場園區及附近地區特定區計劃案是我國規模最大之土地開發及都市計劃案涉及數萬人民的家園財產也是重要的國家建設當時政府許諾徵收範圍之居民將以先建後遷方式提供安置住宅重建街廓以及所需之融資水電"},{"start":20733.104,"end":20754.395,"text":"基礎設施鼓勵人民積極參與配合推動而今公告搬遷期限在即承諾仍未實現民眾焦頭爛額有苦難生懇請中央與地方相關單位務實檢討相關時程與資源配套請聽民意務實人民權益淪喪扼傷國家之公信力"},{"start":20766.593,"end":20785.81,"text":"謝謝圖權級委員的發言報告委員會本院圖權級等14位委員的提案我們現在做以下決議函請行政院嚴處請問院會有異議沒有異議我們就通過謝謝陳永康委員曾振傑委員陪同我們一起處理臨時提案報告委員會現在臨時提案已處理完畢我們下午2點30分繼續開會進行社會福利及衛生環境組織諮詢先來休息"},{"start":21586.877,"end":21612.214,"text":"主委院長 各位委員 午安報告委員會我們現在繼續開會進行社會福利及衛生環境組織諮詢首先請林國成委員準備請諮詢賴世保委員請準備報告委員會現在在我們議場二樓旁邊來自東吳大學政治系的同學們熱情歡迎你們 我們掌聲歡迎好"},{"start":21619.879,"end":21626.36,"text":"好 謝謝院長 請卓院長勞動部紅部長麻煩請卓院長勞動部備選林委員好好 院長最近辛苦了大家都辛苦了"},{"start":21648.254,"end":21670.281,"text":"台灣政紅全球的關稅還有國內的政治紛爭這等等可以說蠟燭兩頭燒感同身受也了解院長你的辛勞我還是要建議院長要拋開政治"},{"start":21675.049,"end":21703.092,"text":"多了解民生還有給你一個建議先安內再攬外未來因為台灣要往前走我也知道 院長你是想要做事但是全球這整個打壓以及大罷免等等這些讓你確確實實左院長是真的蠟燭量多少但是我還是"},{"start":21704.059,"end":21728.989,"text":"要給你一個勉勵你的辛苦當然為了台灣人民要往前走這個我想 院長你同意吧謝謝委員 只要內部能夠安定我們就有全民的力量可以往外走所以我也希望支持我們現在提出的特別條例一起為產業做支持 讓人民安心我一向啊 我們都非常理性的"},{"start":21730.126,"end":21739.478,"text":"該支持的我們會支持不該支持的我們會堅持到底這是我特別跟院長說明一下另外一個當然我問這個話題也就是身為勞工經濟部長"},{"start":21745.267,"end":21765.055,"text":"他講如果看不下去就可以離開這種說法身為一個勞工我還有了解地方勞工的心聲我坦白講緩談之大特別下情善打讓卓院長了解這些"},{"start":21765.885,"end":21789.122,"text":"我說從卓院長執政到現在你講話從來沒有這樣挑釁不尊重勞工的沒有可是我沒有想到一個資方的經濟部長他會講這種話說實在我感覺到非常難過跟非常可悲但院長我為什麼要下請上達"},{"start":21790.711,"end":21811.699,"text":"這個就要特別讓你留意當然不是你叫他這樣講可是確實會影響整個勞工這些士氣跟對我們政府總內閣的看法所以我不曉得左院長你認為他講這句話妥當不妥當"},{"start":21813.552,"end":21822.279,"text":"這句話郭部長講出之後已經引起社會的注意也很多勞工朋友一定會感受到受到尊重所以我跟郭部長有談過"},{"start":21823.464,"end":21843.782,"text":"我們馬上總之結束之後我們馬上會利用適當的時間儘快去跟勞工朋友表達我們具體的關心以及對國營事業同仁夥伴們我們用具體的行動來支持他們謝謝委員的提醒這點因為卓院長你知道他你的內閣講錯一句話這樣是算在你這裡"},{"start":21845.083,"end":21869.58,"text":"但是卓院長講錯一句話是把帳算到賴總統所以要特別嚴肅小心既然立法委員理性提醒你這些我希望卓院長要刻不容緩近視的讓勞工釋緩或許他是無意但是人家聽則有心"},{"start":21870.441,"end":21880.206,"text":"所以這些我身為一個勞工我要代替一千多萬的勞工跟郭部長抗議這些這叫做什麼 灌勞板"},{"start":21881.321,"end":21900.442,"text":"這不好的我可以完全體會我是良心的建議謝謝委員另外一個啊我就感覺到很奇怪郭部長啊他問題一大堆那最近他又請AIT吃飯的時候這裡面有兩個問題現在大家都在吵啊"},{"start":21901.323,"end":21915.407,"text":"那你沒有你就要講清楚啊那做的事情我剛才已經講過卓院長你是要蓋瓜成熟現在人家就把所有格言裡面所作所為都把它記到"},{"start":21917.128,"end":21939.1,"text":"郭部長那郭部長他這種做法他到底是自用工會請AIT或者他自己掏腰包現在都講不清楚現在勞工也一直在講你問卓院長他對這件事情什麼看法如果是自己"},{"start":21940.305,"end":21956.781,"text":"他自己出錢那你也拿出來講清楚不要讓勞工都覺得郭志輝已經灌老闆了那然後灌老闆就應該這樣嗎所以我是覺得我還是要第二個建議我們卓院長"},{"start":21957.932,"end":21982.431,"text":"有就有 沒有就沒有該解釋的要把花票講清楚說明白不要經濟服務講一套他自己講一套但是不要忘了郭部長的長官就是卓院長那卓院長你要不要把這件事情把它理清楚也不要產生勞工跟各界對他有一種誤解我蠻擔心的"},{"start":21983.852,"end":22006.693,"text":"當然部長可以隨時走可是卓院長不要忘記你現在是中華民國最高的行政所長不能因為你的格言這樣來害到你對這件事情的執政的負面院長你認為怎麼樣根據週刊報導裡面有提到郭部長也有說明他對外有說明"},{"start":22007.398,"end":22016.726,"text":"如果那個參會的費用是郭部長自己來支應的話那我想就沒有什麼特別的問題他已經對外這麼說明過了好 院長"},{"start":22017.765,"end":22047.161,"text":"你願不願意把這件事情把它釐清楚讓各界 讓勞工不要把它說我的灌勞榜又出筆囉 院長願不願意好 跟委員報告我們大概都是同時在今天看到這些週刊的報導好 那今天因為我人在這裡我又跟郭副長早上有嘗試聯繫過他說對外他的講法就是這樣一個講法那我會再確實證實他的講法是真的那 卓院長你很多事情是有所為有所不為啦"},{"start":22047.899,"end":22062.275,"text":"這不當的這必須要查清楚 不頭的就馬上當機立斷 該處理就處理去留問題我不在乎而是把真相揭發出來這是你卓院長應該要做的這個我是第二個特別跟你建議"},{"start":22063.716,"end":22083.579,"text":"那另外一個我可能就要跟你談現在勞工的這些勞保福利的問題我們要感謝左院長執政的時候民進黨執政的時候連續幾年來確實在撥補方面以及該做的你們都有做"},{"start":22084.119,"end":22104.518,"text":"所以大家鬧得風風雨雨啊也就是勞保破產的問題在你們撥補的情況之下確實是延後很多可是整個這些架構的問題還是要改善所以我在這裡很簡單直接就特別"},{"start":22105.78,"end":22123.241,"text":"請教我們卓院長到底你對於撥補有在做那勞保條例的66條是把它加上去法定撥補但是在這裡院長我們沒有要你固定要撥補多少"},{"start":22124.062,"end":22151.807,"text":"沒人要撥補但是69條69條就是政府你曾經講過很多次政府要負起這個責任有沒有可能就讓勞工很明確的就是入法那本席啊也跟幾位我們同事啊都已經有提66條的修訂就是固定法定要撥補撥補多少金額由行政院去做決定"},{"start":22152.407,"end":22175.038,"text":"第二個69條就是確定給付也就是政府要確定給付這已經幾十年來修華當中都認為小事可是這一千一百多個勞工的情況之下給他一個入華的保障這是對勞工是一個安定的院長你針對這些你有什麼看法"},{"start":22175.738,"end":22191.185,"text":"修法的問題請部長說明我跟委員報告過去幾年來我們包括疫後的特別條例一共撥補勞保3800億從以前到現在到以後歷任的執政者都不會把勞工的問題置之不理"},{"start":22191.707,"end":22211.058,"text":"我們都會把勞工當作國家重要的資產我們對勞保的最終條件每一任的政府未來也是一樣一定會承擔起來修法的問題部長可以說明我的理由很簡單你同不同意入華保障所有的勞工我跟委員報告"},{"start":22212.505,"end":22238.747,"text":"勞保是國家來辦的社會保險所以不管入不入法政府都會來負擔最終責任是 好那我們也會來視政府的財政狀況來持續的辦理撥補那我知道委員其實也有提案就是說關於最終責任的入法的部分我們是覺得這部分第一個是尊重第二個我們也覺得是可以有討論的空間是 來 燕子"},{"start":22239.656,"end":22248.317,"text":"一句話 你反對入華以否我只要你聽你這句話因為你們本來都有在做啊"},{"start":22249.275,"end":22274.507,"text":"不管未來是誰執政你只是對勞工有保障但是 院長我特別要提醒你從來的行政院長認為這都是小事但是我必須要跟院長建議以重心長勞工需要的就是法令的保障他知道你們有在做但是你同不同意入法的當中同不同意"},{"start":22275.117,"end":22281.848,"text":"入法可以一步一步的來研議但是我跟委員報告政府跟勞工的關係這種終身的保障"},{"start":22283.092,"end":22308.764,"text":"只在乎一張契約你們不會放棄對不對不在乎一張契約這個契約很重要我們終身保證職業老公要的不多老公是一個寶藏跟一個肝臟這個當然你們都有在做啦都具體做到所以這些東西當然是替勞工去爭取這些入華是對他們一個寶藏"},{"start":22311.445,"end":22332.877,"text":"保障因為你們都有在做確實你們也有在做這個我到哪邊跟勞工宣導我說不管任何一個政黨民進黨有做的我就支持他民進黨沒有做的我當然批評他可是院長我已經跟你講這件事情你們有做我到哪邊宣導我就跟他講民進黨在執政的時候"},{"start":22333.837,"end":22358.079,"text":"是撥補給其他政黨還多這個我都幫你們講話你可以去問勞工啊所以 院長我希望你不要阻擋這些入法這些入法對勞工是只有一個保障用法律概念我們的意識實現已經一定一直在實現這點我不要跟你辯論委員不會懷疑我們一定有這樣的心"},{"start":22358.579,"end":22373.596,"text":"所以修法的問題 入法的問題可以慢慢去研究但是我們每年該做的會一定把它做到從過去到現在都如此這個入法 這個入法是對勞工一個切身的保障其實你們有在做 你們怕什麼入法"},{"start":22374.416,"end":22402.729,"text":"這個也跟中華民國的任何權利都沒有關這是勞工的權利所以這點我要建議這個卓院長在這個部分你要很明確的來支持因為修法當然有一定步驟也不是說今天馬上做就馬上做但是我不希望行政單位來反對這個就不好啦這個就不好所以卓院長好另外一個我想那個"},{"start":22404.42,"end":22418.187,"text":"其實警消組工會啊這個是一個大問題但是這裡面有兩點一就是罷工前二就是植栽的確保在這個部分我還是希望卓院長"},{"start":22419.4,"end":22440.657,"text":"每天這樣吵倒不如好好研究一下所以過去教師也是不能組工會那那個時候我很清楚到最後他們沒有罷工錢當然這裡面有一部分的人是公務人員適用公務人員服務法這個都可以談所以我還是要拜託卓院長在這個"},{"start":22442.578,"end":22469.692,"text":"確確實實主公會並非洪水猛獸所以好好去談一下不要踩得那麼硬這樣好 我在想洪部長你站在保障勞工的立場你也不會反對但是確實這裡面有很多值得大家去商討的大家去商討 所以我還是再度建議卓院長在這個部分就大家要共同跨部會的去研究到底"},{"start":22470.822,"end":22491.801,"text":"成立以否有什麼利弊要去做分析以現在政府的心態他好像主公會就是洪水門座這沒有必要的我們說實在這沒必要的這些東西都是我們內政我們內部的問題所以都沒有牽涉從警消人員的福利我們來加強著手"},{"start":22492.361,"end":22500.964,"text":"那麼景蕭因為他是有公法上特殊的職務關係我們希望如果能夠走協會的方式一同來並同來強化協會的功能這個是目前認為比較可行而且穩定社會的必須我是以重心長"},{"start":22512.188,"end":22532.871,"text":"在這個部分就是公務人員服務法以及工會勞動商法這兩者之間當然還有一件但是我建議你就大家坐下來好好談這樣總是有一天會解決那大多數的聲音是認為說保持現狀那這個也是一個解決之道啊"},{"start":22533.151,"end":22545.722,"text":"不要每一次就覺得我們卓內閣都是在反對請委員協助我們好好地來溝通這個溝通一下才會解決好不好 院長好 謝謝林國成委員質詢謝謝卓院長 勞動部長備詢"},{"start":22552.585,"end":22568.471,"text":"好 謝謝接下來登記第二號第三號李昆哲委員跟林月琴委員諮詢書面提出請行政院書面答覆並列入紀錄刊登公報再接下來請賴世保委員諮詢黃秀芳委員請準備"},{"start":22582.143,"end":22589.27,"text":"謝謝主席韓院長 卓院長以及各位先進那麼有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢卓院長好 院長好這個我質詢你像我們客氣啦所以呢"},{"start":22606.647,"end":22633.04,"text":"沒有要你講話你就不要講話因為我今天問題很多拜託主席啊這個我沒有請他講話就不要講話了好我們來看啦郭部長這個被這樣修理啊其實我對郭部長一直很有意見可是如果真的他自己出錢來宴客不管在哪裡請他的公司請我覺得這個無可厚非"},{"start":22635.1,"end":22649.097,"text":"要還他清白可是如果他拿的是公帳那個就有違官爭了我覺得他只要拿出法票就一仗斃命了嘛"},{"start":22649.96,"end":22677.143,"text":"他的公司成立這麼久了餐廳成立這麼久了一定有發票嗎發票拿出來給大家看你看發票的抬頭是空白的像我在吃飯發票拿到發票都空白的因為我沒有公司可以報啊空白的這個就是我個人出的就簡單的如果刷卡更好這個卡是我的卡或者他的家人的卡對不對一拿出來就一槍斃命了"},{"start":22678.499,"end":22694.137,"text":"不用解釋那麼多了如果拿出來的結果 欸 這不是喔這個發票是經濟部的發票號碼喔 那就問題就很大條囉那問題就很大條囉這個 你同意我的說法吧你不不替他講話沒關係 你同意我的說法吧"},{"start":22698.857,"end":22725.46,"text":"所以我說 郭部長對外說明了如果外界還有疑慮外界說明 我有疑慮 我還有疑慮我的疑慮就是show me the evidence給我證據 發票嘛invoice 你看清清楚楚清清楚楚這張審買單 清楚 它不可能是偽照它一定清楚的他再秀出那一張 空白的大家都沒有共啊或者他拿出來 我拿去吃飯"},{"start":22726.656,"end":22751.276,"text":"我的卡 刷卡 刷這筆金額就清楚好 我們來看喔台幣狂飆啊 出口很慘啊股會雙殺啊財源啊 放無薪假越來越多我們幾天啊5月22到現在漲了10%什麼意思等於跟關稅談判我們無意中加了10%"},{"start":22753.063,"end":22776,"text":"我看到了媒體報導 我們爭取到10%至15%的這個關稅對等關稅 爭取這樣子啦但是如果加10%上去 就是20%至25%你現在提出一個特別條例原來我們都支持你啊你說880 我們說不夠啊 應該變成2000"},{"start":22779.327,"end":22792.067,"text":"結果你客氣了只編930其他編一些都跟這個沒有關係的我們黨團編了一個沒有關係的不要你要編什麼任性啊"},{"start":22792.895,"end":22821.613,"text":"你就追加預算 我也支持我在這裡講 增加台灣的本土及社會的韌性絕對支持 但是應該放追加預算不應該放在特別預算裡面特別預算就是針對這次受到關稅的影響所以我們加一個 現在外銷不好啦外銷已經 外匯死一片啦台中的工具企業"},{"start":22824.42,"end":22852.307,"text":"這叫什麼哀鴻騙爺啊真的是啊他沒有賺那麼多欸台積電毛利的損失4% 6%大家外銷產業都很慘了都很慘這時候五星價然後工廠倒退會越來越多這時候擴大內需此時其也啊擴大內需擴大內需所以每個人加一萬塊很有道理啊"},{"start":22854.585,"end":22877.67,"text":"在蔡英文執政的時候 運後經濟條件的條例 特別條例就有這樣的六成 那時候朱成敏說了六千塊可以創造GDP 增加0.3%按照朱成敏的算法 是民進黨執政很重要的一個組織長做很久"},{"start":22878.916,"end":22907.492,"text":"他的算法我如果加1萬可以增加GDP0.5倍擴大內需經濟學院一定讀過嘛多少你也知道你行政院長各位行政院長從經濟的發展GDP很重要的一個出口一個內需一個公共投資一個投資非常重要幾條腿所以這時候擴大內需非常重要你給他錢"},{"start":22908.985,"end":22916.91,"text":"他會去晃 因為東西漲價啦東西漲價啦 這個你可以回答一下我再問一個問題 這個是我們國民黨團體的版本今天互論喔 我們一起來審查如果表決通過我們的版本民眾黨要發六千 我們發一萬"},{"start":22934.517,"end":22941.794,"text":"那最少談一談嘛 大家各讓一步八千也好啊一家五口就有四萬塊可以落袋啊"},{"start":22943.11,"end":22971.775,"text":"從人家來講的話很補誒我現在因為要被罷免了到處在跑基層啊都聽到一個聲音啊內委員啊那個啊 發議員會什麼時候發啊我聽了很心酸啊我說一定會再努力啦但是民進黨的這個執政黨特別左榮泰院長都一直反對勒賴清德也反對勒啊你拿他這個輸贏我說不是這樣講啦又不是要去打架講道理我們要說服院長"},{"start":22973.357,"end":22978.943,"text":"報告委員 發現金對政府來講是最簡單的事情不用做其他事情 就是現金發了而已但對國家真的好嗎"},{"start":22990.435,"end":22991.055,"text":"我還是那個想法把一萬塊發給每一個人"},{"start":23010.789,"end":23027.689,"text":"把五千塊發給手中沒有五千塊的國人這樣比較有他的效益報告院長我希望你不要再講好不好我請你講就講請你不要講就請你不要講喔我實際要控制一下喔我就問你如果我通過你要不要提賦予啦後悔的是問題"},{"start":23030.693,"end":23040.055,"text":"我們會在討論的過程中距離力爭希望大家能夠體認只有集中不降的力量現在才是最好的方法我到七成區大家都要放一萬我接觸到比較窮啦你接觸到比較有錢"},{"start":23046.601,"end":23062.137,"text":"你這做比較有錢啊現在我就要你這個答案就是如果我通過了要發現金你還是要提複譽 就這樣子你答案是這樣子嗎會在討論的過程當中會在討論要不要提複譽沒有 總理長你會被罵死被窮人罵死"},{"start":23067.122,"end":23081.641,"text":"我接觸的都是窮人比較多苦人比較多你接觸的有錢人比較多快樂人比較多所以你都不要好了下一個題目來下一個題目因為你反對啊因為你連有錢人都發一萬塊啊你反對啊來來來"},{"start":23087.041,"end":23113.868,"text":"這個我另外要送你一個分數啦昨天AIT的處長 台北處長古立言才說啦向美國買核能解放他幫你處理核安的問題 你說的要啟動核能 要幫你處理核備料他幫你處理啦這個昨天習近平昨天晚上發的AIT的新聞稿"},{"start":23115.097,"end":23129.949,"text":"他還幫你這個老人我今天早上算很久了咧找了幾個核光專家算了一下請問你知不知道我們現在現有的核電廠裡面還有地方可以放機組你知道嗎你不知道核電廠的範圍當然是很大裡面還可以放機組你知道嗎我們要如何看待這些空間來 比如說核二機場原來放四部機組"},{"start":23145.32,"end":23168.458,"text":"設計的時候四部機組但它只有放兩部核三要放六部它只放兩部所以這兩個加起來就可以放六部的機組六部的核電的機組一個機組發電量可以放多少79億度加起來可以79億度"},{"start":23172.554,"end":23180.04,"text":"每一部的機組花多少錢 兩千億所以六部就花一兆兩千萬院長 我們的談判團正在跟美國談你要跟他講 我跟你買核電啊 給你去工廠給你蓋 那個機組你來蓋安全你負責 核電你負責 運轉你負責我們現在不是抱美國大腿嗎 通通給他負責"},{"start":23202.076,"end":23222.214,"text":"你有什麼好擔心的 馬上我們的關稅 說不定就減下來了這是教你啊 這麼好的房子我昨天晚上想了很久這個好啊 太好了 太好了一兆兩千億 就是美國要的一兆兩千億 美金多少 四百億"},{"start":23223.735,"end":23248.442,"text":"我們去年賺到多少?739億他要我們負擔370億我們這個因為匯率提升所以400億完全滿足美國的需要啊!說不定關稅可以攤位零喔!你要不要感謝我一下?請叫如果我們的談判團隊只有這麼一個方案的話不容易得到國人的支持其中之一!不是只有這個方案!其中之一!"},{"start":23249.326,"end":23275.143,"text":"如果這個法案不能為台灣的核廢料的敘述問題跟我們的核安得到保障的話也不能美國幫你保障啊 你不相信美國喔你依美論喔 你依美論喔你依美論喔 你依美論喔他會請美國處理 他說可以處理 你是一獨一獨內容他樂意幫助台灣解決核廢料儲存的挑戰"},{"start":23277.317,"end":23306.246,"text":"你的問題他都能幫你解決了 河岸的問題解決了河外的問題解決 你的家他幫你運轉都可以 他要做你這個生意啊我給你 你看 我對你多好啊 都幫你想答案啊我們談判團隊備託的方案是全面性的 全面性的我們的談判決定沒有想到這個 因為這個昨天才發出來的他要這個東西美國人清楚 他要這筆生意他要這筆生意 你就給他嘛"},{"start":23307.432,"end":23326.24,"text":"一兆兩千億就給他嘛阿拉斯卡四百多億美金在他的盆土裡面從高山上天然氣下來蓋那個錢我們都願意負擔啊那個是他國家的建設我們都提了負擔了這一筆錢為什麼不能負擔一兆兩千億"},{"start":23327.649,"end":23337.416,"text":"答應他的核電問題解決 要蓋核電同時我告訴你 你那個一千億台幣的補助就有希望爭取到在台的支持一見義不苟 夢來見世可憐我們一再強調 新的核能技術我們都願意公開討論好 再看下一題齁這個 你不要回答了因為你不是賴清德賴清德的總統對台幣暴升了"},{"start":23358.288,"end":23386.735,"text":"不然就像朱立倫好歹在專業 NYU的博士會計學博士 搞財經的講專業的 還給我小看說因為政治人物的攻防造成市場的誤導跟非理性的預期心理耐心的就說是非常惡劣的現在因為搞大罷免 搞到怎麼樣搞到已經街頭巷尾都快打架了"},{"start":23388.183,"end":23396.189,"text":"你來罷免 你罷免 你罷免 你罷免你罷免 你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免"},{"start":23414.444,"end":23435.837,"text":"街頭巷尾都在吵架這樣的畫面屢見不鮮這個讓台灣民主倒退到獨裁國家就是賴清德這一段的歷史全世界第一個執政黨發動罷免在野黨的國會議員就是賴清德他是歷史的罪人"},{"start":23436.667,"end":23456.575,"text":"他要走向獨裁這個全國人民要唾棄賴清德這種行為難怪人家說現在反清復明啊反對賴清德恢復台灣的民主叫反清復明好 我們再看 請那個衛福部長時間暫停 麻煩請衛福部長備選"},{"start":23467.773,"end":23486.319,"text":"我就問你簡單的一個問題而已 間斷 時間有限川普總統說要 藥品關稅要課 到底什麼藥品你知道我最新的消息 你都不進入狀況喔我怪人家說要換掉你喔 我都希望你不要被換喔你知道我的問題嗎"},{"start":23491.397,"end":23503.823,"text":"川普最近剛剛簽了說要對所有的醫藥品課稅 課關稅你知道嗎你都不進入狀況 像阿倫子一樣還當部長咧 要怎麼辦我們的醫療藥品的準備相當的充分這樣的部長我希望都能下去就好"},{"start":23527.583,"end":23528.964,"text":"接下來我們請黃秀芳委員執行 王振旭委員請準備"},{"start":23557.381,"end":23566.029,"text":"黃委員你要不要放正一點好像不夠正再過去一點這樣畫面更好看沒關係謝謝院長我們請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢黃委員好"},{"start":23582.173,"end":23609.167,"text":"卓院長好卓院長我想請教就是說我們今天我想請教就是說我們少子化的議題那我們的這個從1999年內政部設立這個兒童局負責兒少的業務那2013年因為主改的關係所以兒童局就併到我們這個衛福部的這個社家署那其實這樣十幾年的時間我們看到就是說從這個"},{"start":23611.648,"end":23637.33,"text":"兒童醫療也好或者是兒童福利或者是現在最近的這個凱凱案其實很多人一直在希望就是說我們這個兒童的一些單位能夠有一個專責單位那我先從我們的這個兒童醫療開始說起院長你看到這一張就是近十年台灣新生兒的出生數你看了你自己會不會嚇一跳"},{"start":23638.285,"end":23650.595,"text":"我們人口政策跟人口對策一直是政府長期在關心的我們對去年的出生率也覺得蠻憂心從2015年到2024年你看這短短的10年當中從2015的213,598人到2024年的134,856人"},{"start":23666.069,"end":23688.922,"text":"每一年都在下降新生兒每一年都在下降那當然就是說行政院這邊也提出很多的政策鼓勵我們趕生趕婚那所有的兒童福利我也看到這幾年的一些政策希望說能夠鼓勵年輕人能夠生育可是"},{"start":23689.742,"end":23715.128,"text":"雖然我們投入這麼多的資源可是看到好像整個成效也不是那麼好我是不是可以請教這個院長針對這一部分我們未來未來要怎麼樣讓這個新生兒的人數能夠再增加從我們的0到6歲的相關政策來看投入的經費確實很多包括我們的育兒津貼從5000、6000、7000一直往上堆一直我們的托育政策也長時間"},{"start":23716.628,"end":23727.079,"text":"多高額的一個補助但是成效真的是有限我想這個也是一個世界像現在普遍存在的現象我們現在又考慮到從社宅裡面從婚育"},{"start":23729.052,"end":23745.426,"text":"結婚生育來多所補助多所關懷我們會多種方面來進行但是我是覺得認為現在來看能夠讓已經出生的小孩子能夠得到更好的照顧跟教育是我們目前可以馬上開始做的好那剛剛院長有特別提到就是說這個醫療方面就是說"},{"start":23748.428,"end":23775.268,"text":"台灣的孩子一個都不能少都已經這麼少了去年是農年才13萬多一個都不能少當然就是說台灣的醫療尤其是兒童的醫療我們希望都能夠更好我們台灣沒有一個國家級的兒童醫院即便是台大醫院台大兒童醫院它也只是一個小兒科"},{"start":23776.149,"end":23794.592,"text":"就是小兒科 只是它的建築物是寫兒童醫院那當然就是我們希望能夠有一個國家級的兒童專責醫院那如果說短期間內沒辦法這樣做的話那我們是不是可以成立一個國家兒童健康研究中心"},{"start":23795.313,"end":23815.8,"text":"那這個我不知道說院長知不知道就是說我們如果成立這樣的一個國家兒童健康中心現在台大醫院已經在做了可能就是說需要再更多的資源的挹注那這個兒童的健康研究中心它最主要就是用臨床可能就是從臨床"},{"start":23817,"end":23841.249,"text":"那讓我們的這個孩子能夠得到更好更好的治療更好的一個照顧那我不知道說這個請院長回答或者請部長回答是不是可以讓我們即便沒有國家的專責兒童醫院那是不是可以從這方面開始著手謝謝部長謝謝委員那我想我們"},{"start":23842.099,"end":23871.151,"text":"要成立哪一個組織都要知道他的定位是怎麼樣我們一個兒童健康的國家級的兒童健康研究中心我想台大醫院的童人的兒童真的是非常關心兒童的發展不管是在兒童醫療的品質以及他整個研究持續包括他的小孩安全、意外的防範以及整個怎麼樣育兒長大"},{"start":23871.758,"end":23877.843,"text":"那成立一個研究中心這樣的一個方向其實是應該要支持"},{"start":23878.513,"end":23903.618,"text":"那現在目前其實要確定它是它如果是研究計畫其實它在國科會或相關的機構其實都可以來做研究所以我想我們在三月多王正熙委員跟黃委員這邊都有關心開了公聽會那我們就邀請了辦公室委員的辦公室也邀請了教育部、國發會還有衛福部我們共同來研究這樣的一個"},{"start":23905.803,"end":23924.513,"text":"這樣一個當天討論的一個情況之下那當時的結論就是說我們請台大的兒醫能夠來了解再次確認一下我們的國家兒童健康研究中心他的角色以及未來對國家的一個因為是國家級的"},{"start":23924.878,"end":23949.389,"text":"就像當初我們在成立國家級的高齡中心的時候其實雲林要成立結果宜蘭到處都是那我要成立所以你怎麼樣有一個特色那現在還在溝通它的特色那我們會用這一兩年當中把角色在理清楚以後我們來積極來看看怎麼樣把它做下去做得更好"},{"start":23949.98,"end":23967.742,"text":"好 其實我當然知道院長 會務部長對於這個台大的這個醫療因為很多一些急重男寒兒童的這個急重男寒症很多可能在其他縣市那他們第一想到的如果說是急症或者是"},{"start":23968.443,"end":23987.939,"text":"喊病或者是比較難醫治的大家想到就是說到台大醫院尤其是如果是這個台大兒童醫院那如果說我們今天大家認為就是說台大醫院是一個國家級的我們的一個國家級的一個非常重要的醫院那當然如果說現在目前有的兒童醫院"},{"start":23988.88,"end":24016.622,"text":"目前的兒童醫院並不是我們這個認為說是一個國家級的一個專責的兒童醫院所以我希望就是說如果未來這個國家級的專責兒童醫院需要投入更多的資源那當然就是說可以從臨床上面就是這樣的一個兒童的健康研究中心那他們可能收治更多擊中南罕症的這樣的一個疾病那可以提供給其他醫院"},{"start":24017.322,"end":24038.535,"text":"其他這個兒童醫院或其他的兒童的這個診所能夠有更多的這個經驗的一些這個經驗的一個分享或者是如果遇到這個急重難寒的話要怎麼醫治所以我希望就是說部長或院長是不是可以去可以做這樣的一個承諾未來現在台大已經在做了是已經在做了"},{"start":24038.795,"end":24066.227,"text":"他們現在已經在做了只是說需要有更多的資源的挹注而且這個資源這個經費的挹注並不需要這麼的多所以我們希望說院長是不是可以做個承諾感謝委員的關心台大以前有曾經函報過教育部因為台大是屬於教育部系統對於成立一個兒童的國家健康研究中心要把台大的兒醫第二期的規劃做一個先期規劃的報告書那這個部分在2023年"},{"start":24068.703,"end":24092.976,"text":"也曾經教育部編了700多萬的經費來做一個規劃的研究那在今年年底就會完成這個規劃我想我們會持續一步步的推進部長你至於在2018年你自己也開過記者會你還記得你2018年開過的記者會嗎你提出了一個三點這三點就是說要成立一個兒童的特別委員會"},{"start":24094.036,"end":24111.24,"text":"或者是說要指定就是國家級的兒童健康研究中心那再來就是說能夠這個政策然後這個遵循聯合國兒童基金然後包括就是擴大一些托育照顧減免稅收育兒津貼這樣子這個是2018年當時邱委員開的記者會那現在部長你現在已經貴為部長了"},{"start":24117.941,"end":24143.231,"text":"那我剛剛提到的這部分可能就是這個兒童健康研究中心我希望就是說是不是可以在近期內趕快讓趕快由國家的資源來挹注然後趕快來上路那另外一點就是說我們一直認為所有的兒童不論是社福或者是兒童的保護都是散落在各地"},{"start":24144.071,"end":24165.709,"text":"散落在各個單位啦那尤其這個凱凱案發生的時候大家會覺得說那這個兒虐我們一旦是發生這個兒虐的話如果是家外兒虐的話我們還要去釐清就是說施虐者他的身份譬如說他是教師或者是他是保姆或者是托營中心"},{"start":24166.89,"end":24190.401,"text":"你還要再去這樣子去分別因為他所管轄的單位不一樣所以我在5月10號可能有一些家長要上凱道做一些訴求那我是不是可以請院長這邊也要做一些回應就是說我們是不是可以成立成立兒童的專責單位或者是兒少的專責單位目前"},{"start":24194.79,"end":24220.278,"text":"衛福部有在進行相關的規劃我記得之前的匯報是說在五、六月份的時候他們會有一個具體的建議案出來是要用一個什麼樣的專責單位的這個級別機關或者怎麼樣來設計五、六月份是不是部長說明一下好 謝謝謝委員我想衛福部一直持續規劃跟設置而哨的一個專責的單位"},{"start":24223.119,"end":24239.15,"text":"其實是跨本部現在相關的司署執掌並涉及業務調整人力的運動還有衛政跟社政的合作所以因為涉及到組織的重整所以我們現在非常積極的一直在討論持續來審証來評估看怎麼做來做規劃我們會全力以赴"},{"start":24246.181,"end":24272.299,"text":"所以你們未來會朝向有一個兒童的專責單位嗎兒少的一個專責單位嗎會朝這樣子的方向來努力是院長剛剛我一開始讓你看到這樣子這十年來的新生兒人數就是要讓院長跟部長知道就是說我們所有的新生兒所有的孩子"},{"start":24272.879,"end":24292.973,"text":"就是我們要從小就要去做好保護即便這個新生兒的人數越來越少那我剛剛講的從醫療從這個所有的兒童政策孩子一個都不能少所以我是不是可以再請院長就我剛剛講的這個兒少的專責單位"},{"start":24294.534,"end":24309.013,"text":"是不是我們需要是不是未來有這樣的一個專責單位而不是說我們一旦發生這個兒少的議題那你還要去釐清說這個到底是哪一個單位管的"},{"start":24309.981,"end":24325.761,"text":"剛剛部長已經說過現在朝這個方向在演繹我也知道最近就會有一個具體的建議案出來再不變動現在整個國家三級機關的這個數量情況底下能不能做一些整併這個是現在的想法除了衛福部之外"},{"start":24327.059,"end":24349.565,"text":"我也請陳時中政委來協助加快這個速度的推動其實這個不只是現在的邱部長在邱部長前面的薛瑞元部長在更前面的陳時中部長或者是在更前面的林州元部長其實在任內都有提到就是說需要有一個兒童的專責單位那我們在這個之前"},{"start":24350.525,"end":24376.284,"text":"我們的這個兒童局在內政部1999年就設立一個兒童局那因為主改的關係2013年直接併到我們的這個社家署那其實把所有的兒童的議題全部很多人會認為就是說那兒童這麼重要孩子這麼重要那既然是由社家署來管那一旦發生事情的話你還要再去釐清到底是哪一個單位是主責"},{"start":24377.305,"end":24396.281,"text":"所以我在這邊是不是請院長跟部長針對這一部分我們真的要好好的去思考那既然在歷任的這個部長都有提到就是說我們需要有一個兒童的專責單位那是不是可以請院長就是說可以在這邊也做一個承諾那未來我們需要"},{"start":24397.122,"end":24411.919,"text":"就是只是在把它恢復而已啦恢復它原本如果是以前的兒童局或是現在未來是不是有什麼兒童司或兒少的什麼樣的單位都可以就是要有一個主責單位有一個專責的單位"},{"start":24414.077,"end":24431.555,"text":"謝謝委員長期關心兒少跟少子女化的問題我們現在研究的方案方式就跟委員的想法也是一致的我會請陳時中政委跟衛福部邱部長一起盡快時間內把它成為一個定案這個定案以後我們會跟社會再做溝通盡量把它在最快的時間完成"},{"start":24431.803,"end":24460.978,"text":"好那部長我剛提到有我們的這個兒童醫療那還有我們的兒童的專責單位那我想就是說請院長也要去關心因為我們知道說兒童的這個醫療其實有很多這個兒醫這個兒童這個兒科的醫師其實他們很多就不願意不願意再投入這樣的兒科的醫療這個應該院長跟部長都非常的清楚那如果說這個環境沒有做好的話其實"},{"start":24462.879,"end":24486.953,"text":"會讓這個兒童的這個醫療未來會陷入更大的一個困境所以我們希望就是說希望政府能夠正視這個問題然後投入更多的這個資源在我們的這個兒童醫療上面那之前我有在委員會的時候也有特別提到就是說我們的疫苗的處置費那這個疫苗處置費是跟其他鄰近國家來比確實是非常少的"},{"start":24502.975,"end":24504.256,"text":"接下來我們請王振旭委員質詢請盧憲一委員請準備"},{"start":24548.291,"end":24555.773,"text":"謝謝主席韓院長有請行政院左院長還有衛福部邱部長麻煩再請左院長、衛福部長備行"},{"start":24566.949,"end":24595.403,"text":"黃委員好 委員好院長好 部長好今天想跟院長還有部長一起來討論如何來強化我們國人的健康資訊的整合和運用這一部分我在前面說明的時間會比較冗長所以就麻煩院長跟部長能夠擔待因為我們知道自從健康台灣推動委員會"},{"start":24596.363,"end":24618.001,"text":"第一次會議的時候就有定調在這個健康台灣願景規劃裡面我們可以看到其實很多的健康台灣的計畫跟策略都必須要有很好的資料整合與運用這個部分不只是要跨不同的政府部會同時是跨公司部門的"},{"start":24619.415,"end":24648.325,"text":"這個包括888計畫包括全民心理健康韌性計畫國家癌症防治計畫還有智慧醫療長照三年齡等等如果我們以擴大推動心理健康知識為例的話我們從希望能夠強化民眾的心理健康過程來看光是在青少年這一部分就可能會涉及到衛福部還有教育部的資料整合"},{"start":24649.665,"end":24663.613,"text":"當然也會包括到內政部還有請政署的資料整合針對整體的民眾而言我們希望在推動這個過程裡面不管是在哪一個生命週期可能在青少年"},{"start":24664.349,"end":24693.027,"text":"或者是在就業期甚至到成熟老年期以後相關的各種不同的特定人口群的心理健康事實上都需要有一個比較完整的資訊的整合那我相信這個部分院長也會非常非常的關心那進一步針對國家癌症防治的計畫為例的話我們也知道它需要的就是一個橫向的包括各個部會施主的這個整防治的資源"},{"start":24693.767,"end":24707.678,"text":"在眾項而言還會包括整合到衛生、醫療、機構、院所還有民間機構、團體等等我們都了解其實癌症的防治最重要的就是在它發病"},{"start":24708.342,"end":24733.272,"text":"在得到整段癌症之前我們就希望能夠來做一些預防那這個預防裡面前端的預防像是運動、營養還有飲食等等各種的生活習慣將來會涉及到的就是運動部還有農業部相關的資訊那如果在工作的場域方面還有生活環境的這些癌症風險因此的管控"},{"start":24734.672,"end":24745.58,"text":"還會涉及到的就是有勞動部還有環境部等等的權責所以如何能夠運用這些資訊的整合來降低癌症的死亡率這個需要行政院"},{"start":24746.921,"end":24771.608,"text":"進行這個跨部會的整合來一起處理我們最後再想利用有關賴總統在第三次的健康台灣推動委員會裡面特別提到想要推動這個整合健診資料來防止慢性病為例的話我們可以發現說在這個部分至少有三個問題需要去了解第一個就是要如何整合"},{"start":24772.188,"end":24782.92,"text":"散落在各個部會各個單位甚至在各個類型的人員手上的資料第二部分我們到底要採取立法來強制整合呢或者是要用"},{"start":24784.276,"end":24803.07,"text":"誘因的鼓勵模式來加強這個整合當然第三點就是有關於資安各自的保護還有開放運用的法源是不是有所依據所以我們可以從這張國內各類型的見證法源跟資料持有者的示意圖來看"},{"start":24804.071,"end":24815.264,"text":"我們看到的就是不同對象的類別不管是勞工、學生、公務人員或國人等等它有不同的法源依據可以得到相關的這些見證的資料"},{"start":24817.113,"end":24840.727,"text":"我們知道從法務、公務人員跟公費的健檢資料來看相對來講處理起來是比較方便的可是針對於勞工的健檢資料學生的健檢資料甚至是國人自費的健檢的資料事實上如果要來整合進入到我們慢性病防治的健檢資料庫的話是有它一定的困難度所以在這個挑戰上面"},{"start":24841.647,"end":24855.221,"text":"我們有三個層次的建議包括第一個就是利用憲法法庭在111年憲判13號要求立法的機會來擴大處理健康資料的整合運用"},{"start":24856.127,"end":24872.328,"text":"那如果退而求其是要先通過這個健保資料庫法規來處理的話那也希望未來能夠再盡快研議後續的修法時程跟它的完整的內容那其他如果是要定調用"},{"start":24873.055,"end":24892.472,"text":"政策計畫或者是行政命令來處理的話那也希望有一個完整的配套措施我們認為國人的健康資料在整合運用之前我們都必須要完善的跟社會做好完整的溝通來確保這個治安跟各自的"},{"start":24894.428,"end":24919.442,"text":"各方面的保障讓人民可以很放心的知道說國家未來在使用這些健康資料的時候對人民還有對個人的健康都是有完整的保障而且是最有利用價值的那這樣的社會的信任才是政策能夠推動好的一個前提所以在這部分我們很期待能夠透過院長"},{"start":24921.709,"end":24932.585,"text":"這邊多了解一下希望未來在這一部分如何有更好的想法或者是在規劃上有哪一些的期程請院長好 謝謝王委員在健康台灣"},{"start":24933.919,"end":24956.841,"text":"非常成功的論壇提出的健康台灣的深耕計畫確實讓國內在整個醫療環境上面有了很多更充實的想法那其中我們對於像癌症像罕病像三高已經發病已經有病在身上我們有一套完整的醫療計畫我個人認為在一般國人身上兩個部分非常重要一個是健康促進一個是精準醫療"},{"start":24958.021,"end":24973.783,"text":"健康促進會讓大家改變生活習慣精準醫療會降低我們在醫療上面的成本也讓病人少於痛苦那這兩個部分要做到就必須要委員所說的這些資訊的整合運用非常非常的重要"},{"start":24974.364,"end":25002.686,"text":"那台灣有30年非常豐富的健保的資訊在這個我們現在已經在著手在研究對過去的怎麼處理未來的發生怎麼處理那現在在各自保障以及充分信任的原則底下拿出來如何有效來運用才讓國人在健康醫療方面得到更多的保障正是現在在做的工作這個也是說我們委員所說的醫療韌性跟它的永續發展這點是非常重要我們正朝這個方向來做"},{"start":25003.266,"end":25025.354,"text":"好 謝謝院長所以我們很期待未來在資料的整合可以有更前瞻的做法來完成這樣的任務的政策要求接下來希望跟院長還有部長討論一下如何能夠把危機變成轉機就是如何能夠利用這次關稅的影響來對世界產業鏈的衝擊能夠提升我國在醫療產業的發展跟韌性"},{"start":25033.413,"end":25059.443,"text":"院長我們知道其實最近很多很多的議題都跟這個美國總統川普對於關稅對全世界造成了影響那就從這個醫藥的原料藥或者是醫材原料各方面來講的話我們知道這個成本可能會有所影響那以原料藥為例全球最主要原料的供給國就是包括中國還有印度那即便將來會在美國製造"},{"start":25061.843,"end":25075.487,"text":"最後可能也因為這些成本的影響提高而會轉嫁到消費者會不會就會造成全球藥品跟醫材運用整體性的提高這個都是讓我們所擔心的面對這樣的關稅衝擊其實在衛房委員會"},{"start":25079.708,"end":25100.909,"text":"4月16號也排了專案的報告那個時候部長也在這個諮詢過程裡面也做了一些相對的答覆那我在那天的會議上面除了強調藥品跟這個醫材以外事實上還有兩個非常重要的就是有關於疫苗還有血液製劑的這個供應的穩定"},{"start":25102.671,"end":25126.728,"text":"那我們也知道其實現在是有一些政策來針對於這個疫苗跟血液製劑的供應有相對的這個處理模式可是我們期待的是將來政府能不能夠更積極投入更多的資源有更明確的政策來讓我們這次所碰到的危機變成一個轉機所以我們也期待"},{"start":25127.328,"end":25151.524,"text":"在這個部分有更好的健康產業的新方向包括建立我們本土的產業鏈來整合進全球的供應鏈裡面還有醫療產業能夠納入經貿的戰略分散供應的來源進而強化資源的投入納入韌性特別條例跟預算"},{"start":25152.886,"end":25159.585,"text":"這部分院長利用4100億其實也有所琢磨最後當然更期待的是可以"},{"start":25160.512,"end":25187.631,"text":"提升我們國家整體的戰略規劃來長期支援益助讓這個危機轉化為轉機期待我們在整個醫療韌性上面不只從這個需求來看而已而是希望能夠讓這樣的國家的整體戰略可以達到未來的目標那這部分不知道院長或者是部長有沒有相關的看法好 謝謝委員的指教委員提出來的健康產業的新方向"},{"start":25188.311,"end":25214.007,"text":"就是我們一直在做的事情那我特別再補充的就是我們剛剛委員提到的幾點第一個當然大家最關心的疫苗那我們在健康台灣的推動小組裡面也成立了國家疫苗產業推動小組那這個也開了兩三次會議把產業跟我們技術還有怎麼樣在台灣落實我們國產"},{"start":25217.811,"end":25244.438,"text":"發展國產的一個疫苗這是中長期要去做的目標那以短期來講因為我們在防疫的疫苗裡面因為短期的供應不會有立即的影響因為我們都是簽長期的約所以大致上短期不會影響但是長期來講我們已經成立了一個國家疫苗產業推動小組來進行這件事情那至於其他"},{"start":25245.853,"end":25254.676,"text":"醫材或者是藥品方面我們也強調也一直在推動本土化像4月26號我們公告兩個辦法就是對藥品我們鼓勵學民藥的產業在台灣的製造建立本土的一個產業鏈"},{"start":25265.719,"end":25286.219,"text":"那在中醫藥方面我們也希望在原料不要一直靠國外我們希望我們台灣有很多地方是可以產很好的產品我們一起中西我們這些都是本土化來對藥品做一個穩定我想這個部分都是增加我們醫材醫藥方面的韌性好 謝謝"},{"start":25287.76,"end":25313.925,"text":"再來我想要跟院長跟部長來討論一下有關於商保協同健保的可能性我們知道這個是一個重要議題如何能夠再強化我們整體的除了現有的全民健保跟商業保險以外提供強化醫療保障第二層的健保政策線這是由民眾志願參加的一個保險這個其實在論壇去年已經完成了國會院完成這個論壇以後"},{"start":25315.305,"end":25337.018,"text":"也已經撰寫成書等一下我會把這本書獻給院長來做個參考這一部分在這個討論的過程裡面其實有一部分的主力是來自於保險業者或者是相關的業者所以這部分我們很希望能夠有更進一步的政策可行性的探索以外也能不能請院長來責成政委"},{"start":25340.181,"end":25364.76,"text":"進一步來做後續的討論那最好是有財經相關的政委來協助跨部會的研議因為我們所了解的這個主力是來自於保險業者的話那這部分的推動期待有他的未來性不知道這部分院長可不可以有所允諾我們健保的體系相當完整在這完整的前提底下但是國人加入商業保險的"},{"start":25365.881,"end":25388.295,"text":"這個比例也相當的高那如果在兩邊的整合現在是到了一個可以檢討的時候所以我所知道健保署也委託了國衛院在做相關的規劃但是剛剛委員所提醒的是要把這些有些商業模式的概念帶進來才能夠在未來是否可行性的評估上面得到更真實那這一點委員的建議我們會請國衛部來接受這樣的建議"},{"start":25388.834,"end":25417.157,"text":"好 謝謝那最後一部分也可能要麻煩彭部長就是有關於這個醫療體系環保永續的策略其實賴總統也非常強調這個節能減碳那醫療院所針對這個運用ESCO達到節能減碳的目標也曾經去過長庚醫院那魏晃也去過長庚醫院做了相關的這些努力的了解那彭部長也希望能夠透過導入綠色金融"},{"start":25418.198,"end":25422.923,"text":"目前醫院裡面就是長庚體系做得最積極現在我們政府有兩個方式一個是環境部是負責施力的醫院"},{"start":25439.58,"end":25465.884,"text":"比較大型的私立醫院公立的醫院是經濟部在做協助我們大部分已經開始在協助他們診斷了診斷完了之後就要媒合媒合目前私立醫院走得比較順暢公立醫院的確有一點點難度因為基本上他的資源或是他招標的形式比較難進行資金的部分沒有問題因為金管會也協助我們如果需要資金的話金管會的壽險資金都可以來做協助"},{"start":25466.284,"end":25470.907,"text":"所以現在未來這幾個月是在媒合當中我們希望可以達到委員的目標好 謝謝"},{"start":25495.623,"end":25504.817,"text":"好 謝謝王哲熹委員質詢 謝謝卓院長 衛福部長 環保環境部部長備詢 謝謝接下來我們請盧憲英委員質詢 李彥秀委員請準備"},{"start":25523.607,"end":25528.37,"text":"主席有請院長跟環境部長麻煩再請卓院長環保部長備詢"},{"start":25542.432,"end":25567.786,"text":"今天我們來談談我們再生能源因為越來越多關電或者是風力發電想要在我們原住民地區來做設施我們來看一下現在美國的比例大概是多少我剛剛資料是美國現在太陽能的話是22%我們台灣現在是5%也就是說可能以後我們會來越多的關電設施我們可以預期"},{"start":25568.746,"end":25580.347,"text":"那現在考一下捧部長就是說如果一千戶的話大概需要多少的關店面積一千Mega一千戶一千個家庭"},{"start":25581.141,"end":25606.543,"text":"一千個家庭這個比較難這樣算我有查資料他說是32 Acre那也就是說英畝那如果換成甲的話是13.35甲那如果我們再這樣算如果以後我們要增加那麼多的關電我們以後要設在哪裡你們想過我們大概以後的maximum要到哪一個多少個公畝還是多少個甲的一個關電設施"},{"start":25608.41,"end":25630.401,"text":"要到幾萬公頃的確如果要大的話以後原住民地區可能會越來越多所以我們就討論到原基法的第21條就是說政府或私人與原住民土地或部落及周邊一定範圍內的公有土地從事土地開發資源利用生態保育及學術研究應諮商必取的原住民族或部落同意或參與"},{"start":25631.622,"end":25646.858,"text":"那利益有源民族應該可以共同來分享那現在呢就是公有土地的這個部分跟私有土地這個部分是最受爭議的因為為了業者為了規避很多的一些法令他就是去找了私有地所以在我們"},{"start":25648.058,"end":25663.965,"text":"那個台東的海端鄉的管理員就拉了白布條說這個私人土地是1.5公頃可是縣政府後來就說他是符合所謂的環保的環評那我是希望部長這邊在環評的部分能不能好好把關"},{"start":25665.206,"end":25694.148,"text":"報告委員因為目前是針對於山坡地超過15公頃我們現在是訂單環評但是關於原民關切的部分其實我們環評裡面如果大家有意見的話我們可以列入考慮在裡面未來環評來進行修正不過基本上這個還是要跟原住民基本法裡面的諮商的部分因為這個是兩個平行的時空所以我今年有提出一個修法就是說希望私有土地能夠部落統一"},{"start":25695.069,"end":25713.976,"text":"至少住在這個土地的原住民能夠知道或者是同意這件事情這樣會阻力會比較少可以嗎這個就是可能要在原住民基本法裡面來討論這個東西那我們環評的部分的話我們可以考慮來例如說原民部落這個部分多大的面積要來環評這個部分我們也可以來考慮來做這些規劃"},{"start":25716.75,"end":25730.542,"text":"就風力發電的部分我剛看了就是大概今年的三月就是造成台東縣很多我們無論是縣長議長或者是立委他們都強烈的反對說要在我們東海岸設置風電那部長你的態度呢"},{"start":25732.237,"end":25754.496,"text":"報告委員因為今年我們環評委員審到好幾個陸域風機的案子大概都非常的因為基本上陸域風機超過500公尺半徑的話其實它對於民眾的生活上的確是受到很大的影響所以今年的確有好幾個陸域風機特別是在彰化還有台東屏東的都沒有通過"},{"start":25755.177,"end":25768.902,"text":"所以其實關於台東那個案件的話我也主動因為我知道台東的民眾很關心這個問題在我們環境部的臉書不過他還沒有正式開發他是預想要開發所以我們也表示說如果要進行陸域風險的開發一定要"},{"start":25770.462,"end":25793.284,"text":"特別特別的注意那我們個人來說的話是不鼓勵因為其實這個台灣的土地面積很小如果要有這麼大規模的入域縫隙很難找到地方所以我們基本上一定要相信所以這邊還是要強烈建議就是說以後如果要設置的話至少要離部落五百公尺以上因為他們設置的地點有些是非常近現在規定就是五百公尺距離就一定要做環評"},{"start":25794.225,"end":25816.048,"text":"我做一個數字給部長參考就是500公尺以內如果造成所謂的低頻噪音的話每增加7.86個分貝會造成心跳變快就是說如果說10分貝每增加10分貝的話可能他一天的心跳多了一萬多下所以這個部分就會造成以後無論是心血管無論是他的腦神經衰弱這些部分"},{"start":25816.688,"end":25833.84,"text":"就是他們低頻噪音造成的所以這個概念就是要有所以他國外的研究說希望是五百公尺以上是有依據的而不是隨便亂說的現在就是五百公尺距離這個建築物五百公尺都必須要環頻接下來請我們衛生部長謝謝環境部長麻煩請衛福部長請備詢"},{"start":25849.045,"end":25866.281,"text":"因為每次看到我的話應該還是要想到原建法原建法再過一個月就要兩年了所以我們再講一次專責單位的重要性那為什麼一直要這麼說因為原住民地區確實是非常的辛苦然後每次我們都在講就是衛生所在幾乎承接了所有的"},{"start":25866.801,"end":25889.156,"text":"所謂的醫療的照顧那其實我在選舉期間我一直都在說希望能夠衛生所能夠升級升級呢就是比如說變成小醫院或者是醫院的層級規模的時候裡面的醫生的科別才會多護理人員才會增加不然每次都是固定一個地段一個護士所以六個村就是六個護士可是現在的問題五花八門"},{"start":25890.66,"end":25911.652,"text":"那個防疫的時候要做防疫有個案死亡的時候要去做香菸這些事情或者說打疫苗的時候全部都要其實都是這幾個人在輪流做嘛所以其實如果說把你有專責單位的話去研究我們原鄉地區的衛生所能不能做一個升級以後呢我們才有下一步的可能不然人力永遠都是緊繃在那裡"},{"start":25913.988,"end":25943.408,"text":"可以嗎 部長 要不要明年的時候我再來專責單位還是沒有成立所以委員的意思是要提升原鄉衛生所的人力你人力就是要把衛生所升級以後才有人力才可以進來不然我每次都說衛生所只有兩個醫生他編制就是這樣嘛那你如果說你變成是比如說霧台鄉醫院偏遠地區醫院的話他是不是科別就會變多護理人員也可以相對變多做長照的人也可以進來"},{"start":25944.508,"end":25962.134,"text":"不然你永遠都是12個人的編制做那麼多事情我想委員長期在基層的衛生所服務很了解到他的服務他可以說是前往位的一個一健康一體的概念在服務的整個社區那我想這個部在人力上的確"},{"start":25962.875,"end":25987.176,"text":"不管是醫護相關工位的人才都相當的辛苦是不是我們可以先這個部分我們一般都是先協調縣市衛生局能夠給予資源不管是在人員或者是在醫院的協助之下因為衛生所一般來講都會跟醫院合作所以這個部分如果能夠充分的來合作相信可以解決"},{"start":25988.562,"end":26005.337,"text":"目前的問題其實這個也不只在原鄉連在雲林的鄉下哪裡都是這個問題所以應該可以盤點全國特偏地區或是偏遠地區衛生所的人力編制不是每個地區都一樣然後上次提到救護車的事情就是說"},{"start":26006.017,"end":26030.598,"text":"明明就是有看到救護車可是沒有救護車司機備請嘛那其實以後可以把衛生所跟消防隊能夠蓋近一點像以前我在霧台衛生所服務的時候消防隊就在隔壁所以不是有後送的時候是不是很方便那像上次發生那個死亡案件就是因為他是衛生所在他前面可是他要叫消防隊是在好幾公里以外來的時候已經超過20分鐘以上"},{"start":26031.078,"end":26057.688,"text":"那就是會造成這樣的一個所謂的一個盲點所以其實如果你要救護車要有人開當然一定要有人沒有司機所以你把衛生所跟消防隊如果蓋近一點說不定以後他們人力可以互相搭配然後就可以輪流休息而不是永遠這批人累死了這邊的人就是可以放假這樣你不覺得這樣比較合理嗎對 因為這樣會比較有效力好 那"},{"start":26058.464,"end":26083.072,"text":"接下來就是我想問你萊豬的你的態度看到新聞說澳洲的萊豬可以進來了現在的單位是說是法定容許的量對不對 部長法定是0.01那現在查驗出來是0.001ppm所以是在我們的法定國際標準的容許量以下對 那我跟院長我報告一個"},{"start":26085.011,"end":26108.196,"text":"資訊就是說2022年環境醫學有一個報告就是萊豬的無論你是不是容許範圍就是反正我們現在按照我們現在的法定的容許量好了他會加速動脈周狀硬化高血脂症也就是說增加我們心臟的一些所謂的風險在所以其實我們不要說他我們國家為了"},{"start":26108.756,"end":26127.29,"text":"什麼政策造成說可以容許檢出當然我們還是希望能夠零檢出啦不過還是要告訴說潛在的風險是在這裡不是因為說我們要去完全去block掉這個東西可是你要知道它的危害所以你要告訴國人說這個有這方面的疑慮所以還是要標示可以嗎"},{"start":26127.995,"end":26143.918,"text":"相關的報導也告訴我們說它已經是累積到相當程度的量它才會造成這一個反應出來那我們認為現在從國內的實用的狀況來講都不會到達那個量但是我們還是要提醒"},{"start":26144.861,"end":26171.573,"text":"肉商販賣的業者跟國人能夠自力提高經濟因為畢竟現在是從澳洲來的所以希望標示能夠還是知道他是澳洲所以國人才可以做選擇第二個就是我們原住民就是我們公費養成計畫這個部分跟部長討論現在他們在公費生在分發的時候有七個順序就是說他可以到原住民地區衛生所可以到原住民地區所屬醫院可以到所屬非教學院這些七個"},{"start":26172.573,"end":26198.53,"text":"所以很多選項不過現在有一個陳情就是說他是原住民公費生他想要到診所去服務結果沒有辦法那其實在專科護理師的公費生其實是可以到偏遠地區的診所服務還公費可是醫生卻沒有辦法然後其實我們在這個所謂的七個順序別裡面他有一個第五項就是"},{"start":26199.21,"end":26215.224,"text":"原住民地區長期照顧管理中心或是長期照顧服務機構這第五項是他可以到哪裡服務那如果這個診所是做居家醫療的我覺得這是同類型的所以這個同類型的話我覺得可以開放或者是說我們把它直接設置第八點就是說"},{"start":26215.965,"end":26231.75,"text":"本席說建議設置原住民地區提供基層醫療居家醫療社區整合照護或安寧照護的服務診所應該作為公務生可以作為公費生旅行服務醫務的單位這是我的第八條建議所以希望以後我們有空的時候可以討論這一點"},{"start":26233.311,"end":26260.098,"text":"好 謝謝委員我想這個問題我們其實一直都有討論過因為現在的服務型態已經從醫院、診所到社區我們所工作已經從居家醫療到全診照顧到安寧的一個照顧所以但是問題做這些的團隊其實他是很辛苦而且如果在偏遠地區或山地離島那距離更遠所以其實是"},{"start":26260.718,"end":26287.232,"text":"不太有人要做啦所以如果把這個也加進去在裡面在排行七裡面也不一定要第八啦他可能會在前面一點讓更多的這些公會醫師能夠回到到其實他醫院裡有時候也沒有位子了但是所以他沒辦法回去服務那如果有願意做居家醫療安寧照顧這種比較辛苦的比較沒人做的"},{"start":26287.999,"end":26308.572,"text":"我相信他的順序是可以把他排在前面所以部長同意嗎同意就是說我們來研議因為這種比你你如果只是說我去那邊開業那可能當時當跟當時當初設立的原理就不太一樣而且也會引起其他的一個已經在那邊開業的意思的不同的意見"},{"start":26309.642,"end":26326.594,"text":"最後一個問題就是關於那個就是有波波醫師的爭議的很多醫師單位跟我反映然後是要跟部長強烈的建議就是說新修正的醫師法施行細則裡面他有些他覺得他的一律我念給你聽"},{"start":26327.435,"end":26353.402,"text":"也基大學教學品質的慷慮就是第一個第二個就是說遠距教學他也被承認然後見習時數可以當作實習時數第四個就是說他認為你是土地特定人士那你會要不要做一些辨別報告委員我想那個細則其實是按照原來的版本把它規劃得更嚴格一點那如果說大家還有誤解的話我想我們都會坐下來談沒有問題"},{"start":26355.516,"end":26378.778,"text":"因為比如說演技但是在特別疫情的時候你如果沒有這一條的話大概就我們大概所有的大學的連高中生當時都不用畢業了因為很多連我兒子連建中差不多兩三年大概有一年半都是在視訊所以你沒有這樣的一個規範讓他完整其實也不行那另外在"},{"start":26379.999,"end":26395.489,"text":"認定的這個部分那是一個國家每一個國家它有不同的制度我們尊重國家的制度如果這個大家還有疑惑我覺得都可以做下來所以你還是要請那些反波波一式的團體可以跟你們一起討論啊沒問題沒問題他們都沒有被尊重我們非常樂意來討論"},{"start":26400.54,"end":26423.255,"text":"那部長我們有一些養成計畫的公飛生還在外面流浪我想說你還是請特定的就是我們的工作人員或者官員去關心他們去問他們何去何從因為這些沒有被分發的一些公飛畢業生已經超過百位所以希望你可以組一個所謂的小組去協助他們未來怎麼辦可以嗎"},{"start":26424.059,"end":26453.237,"text":"還沒有分發的公會醫師我想這個部分我們政府有責任來了解我們訓練這麼多醫生他已經訓練好了可是就是沒辦法回去服務這個部分我們怎麼樣讓他到適當的地方來服務我們的人民我想我們會很用心來研議好 謝謝部長好 謝謝盧憲英委員的質詢我們謝謝卓院長 衛福部長的悲情 謝謝接下來我們請李彥秀委員質詢 麥玉珍委員請準備"},{"start":26471.339,"end":26477.372,"text":"謝謝院長,我是不是可以邀請卓院長以及邱部長麻煩請卓院長、衛福部長備詢"},{"start":26490.004,"end":26514.814,"text":"議員好院長好部長好即將就任滿一年那我也需要好好的去盤點就任一年無論是賴總統過去在選舉的政策也好或者是過去我在衛黃委員會或者是我們在同一個質詢台關注的重要政策議題我們到底落實了多少院長你同不同意我今天的大標公司協力改善"},{"start":26515.394,"end":26538.822,"text":"我們醫療勞動的環境是需要公司共同來協力你同不同意我的大標應該是這樣做的沒錯嘛譬如說我們要老闆幫員工加薪我們幫員工加薪我們另外一個用意是我們希望民間也可以老闆也可以呼應我們的政策也幫民間的勞工加薪嘛對不對那我們有足夠的誘因給他們"},{"start":26540.002,"end":26568.541,"text":"有些獎勵政策或許他們就有更多的誘因可以去加薪所以大圓則也感謝院長您的方向是同意的我們現在部長我們現在正在修特管法的修法我們也強調說要幫醫事人員加薪其中我們要求醫院要幫醫事人員加薪從基本薪資加到基本薪資的兩倍診所的部分我們則要求要幫醫事人員希望能夠達到基本薪資的1.5倍"},{"start":26570.463,"end":26584.291,"text":"這個政策當然在醫界有引起不同的反應當然我們賴總統常在喊健康台灣健康台灣健康台灣絕對不是只有總統在總統府裡面開幾次的會議"},{"start":26585.933,"end":26602.191,"text":"會議之後我們怎麼樣利用我們政府有的工具跟政策去做更多的落實這才是總統開會主要的目的對不對方向上過去去年也好今年也好我們利用醫事人員的勞動條件我們從公務預算撥了40億"},{"start":26606.095,"end":26628.357,"text":"去用於三班輪值夜班的護理人員的直接獎勵我們更從健保的總額裡面花了41.56億總共加起來總共有80億左右我們在調整醫事人員的環境護理人員的環境這些政策我都支持我也覺得方向是正確的但是院長部長"},{"start":26629.679,"end":26643.479,"text":"我們的醫療院所裡面不是只有護理人員我們還有藥師我們還有檢驗師我們還有放射師大家都很辛苦院長你同意我的說法嘛對不對大家都很辛苦分工負責的狀況底下"},{"start":26644.66,"end":26666.13,"text":"對方向上也不是只有夜班的同仁辛苦其實白班夜班大夜班大家都很辛苦所以我們有沒有辦法其實我質詢了很多次我在財務會有質詢了很多次我有問財政部長說我們有沒有什麼樣的工具像我們在現行的中小企業發展條例當中我們有提供營業稅的租稅的優惠"},{"start":26669.622,"end":26692.768,"text":"院長 卓院長我們有提供營業稅的出稅優惠給企業但是我們的醫療院所我們的診所它不是營利單位所以它沒有機會減稅這就是我今天的大標我覺得公私合力我們要給足夠的誘因讓這些診所雖然那個誘因可能出稅優惠只有一點點"},{"start":26694.068,"end":26722.265,"text":"但是這個是我們政府給的蘿蔔我們希望透過這個蘿蔔可以讓他們也給藥師也好 給檢驗師也好更多的加薪的機會所以這個政策我們也希望部長可以折成橫向部會的聯繫給邱部長更多的工具可以去做這些處理 出稅優惠的處理部長可不可以 院長可不可以 部長可不可以"},{"start":26723.934,"end":26745.666,"text":"院長你先講好了我們對於醫院是直接給獎勵的我知道院長因為我今天議題很多所以你直接告訴我就說工具上一般醫院的律師直接給獎勵三班負面品達到標準的醫院直接給獎勵這些獎勵他就可以放到白班的家給家綺或是一些其他的醫療人員"},{"start":26746.426,"end":26761.483,"text":"這個我都知道但是不是只有護理人員醫院裡面還有檢驗室醫藥師所以我剛才講的是我們能不能透過醫管法的修法我們用什麼樣的方式給診所也好因為他不是營利事業所的他不是營業所所以他沒有機會從"},{"start":26763.464,"end":26791.14,"text":"租稅優惠上面去做處理所以我覺得要從修法的方向去做處理所以是不是可以責成部長去做後續法上面的去調整我也問過財政部部長他也同意但是你必須啟動這樣的政策才有機會在租稅優惠的上面去免稅譬如說診所他是租的那怎麼樣因為他給員工加薪他給護理人員加薪他給藥師加薪所以我們給他租稅上的優惠"},{"start":26793.676,"end":26817.919,"text":"人力準備的方案我們是今年才實施去年才實施應該給他到各醫院去執行一段時間看看如果效果很好我們可以加碼如果還有需要補強法治化的過程我們再來檢討部長你很清楚問題點在哪裡診所你沒有給他的工具他怎麼去加薪所以我覺得可以去研議"},{"start":26819.107,"end":26836.137,"text":"跟委員報告這一年來我們的政府真的預祝了很多的經費到我們醫療院所而且非常期待是給我們所有的醫事人員包括診所也要吧監測它是不是有確實到我們醫事人員的薪資"},{"start":26837.197,"end":26850.829,"text":"這是我們一直在努力的那另外在稅務的部分我想這是多年來一直在努力的事情那我們也會尊重醫事團體的爭取我們來協助合理的處理"},{"start":26851.786,"end":26867.678,"text":"好謝謝部長因為我今天時間很有限我已經問了很多次我只是給你足夠的工具我希望所有醫事人員都可以加薪不是只有在醫院在醫療診所裡面我只是提供你這樣的政策跟方向你可以去做處理我是善意的提醒"},{"start":26868.818,"end":26892.37,"text":"來第二個就是我們長期關注的疫苗處置費部長你長期也都去參加各式各樣的學會我們也都承諾他們要提出相關的問題我們希望健康台灣不是只有賴總統的淪為口號那包括在106年的時候你我都是在當立法委員的時候我們在胃黃委員會都爭取了包括常規疫苗處置費的接種"},{"start":26894.195,"end":26910.321,"text":"一歲以下後來我們爭取到106年我們爭取到100塊那後續包括107年我們就國小前的接種我們都達到爭取到那個補助費所有的都可以達到100塊就是1到7歲疫苗的接種我們都100塊的儲置費但是我們看一下表格"},{"start":26913.962,"end":26926.846,"text":"我們鄰近幾個國家我們一劑是一百塊錢日本政府在給予疫苗處置費的補助的部分是每一劑一千一到一千六百五十塊韓國是五百到一千一劑是一千塊反觀我們是只有一劑一百塊這個在醫事人員勞動的條件環境上我覺得我們政府是帶頭貶低醫療服務價值"},{"start":26937.389,"end":26957.116,"text":"在我看來我比照世界各國我們最喜歡比照世界各國但是我們看光比這個疫苗處置費的部分我就認為我們的醫生為什麼都是血汗醫生他們都自己常在喊說我們的醫療價值被貶低了我想你是醫界出身你最清楚我在說什麼邱部長"},{"start":26958.616,"end":26982.75,"text":"所以我覺得應該要調高我們的疫苗處置費每一次參加學會的時候你在現場我也都給你錄音你也都同意我們要想辦法我們要找錢我們要想辦法所以我們要全面的提高全年齡的疫苗處置費在短期的部分我更認為特別要照顧小朋友的部分兒童的疫苗的接種部分我們也應該要去"},{"start":26983.84,"end":27005.828,"text":"提升我們現在一百塊而已嘛我們應該要去提升至少在七歲以下我們應該要想辦法去提升你有承諾過我有聽到我有在現場部長是的這一百塊韓國一劑是一千一我想疫苗處置會當然剛剛提的這個數據可能在我們要釐清他有沒有包括"},{"start":27006.79,"end":27019.503,"text":"那個疫苗在裡面那沒關係但是的確要打一個給小孩子的疫苗真的很不簡單你把他打下去那個護士還被小孩子踢個兩腳的都有都有"},{"start":27023.243,"end":27050.385,"text":"要判斷他能不能打這也是很醫療的專業所以你同不同意部長你只要承諾我同不同意會研議在疫苗基金的一個產源的情況之下我們來研議怎麼樣來做謝謝部長你的回應另外一個就是疫苗的配送的部分因為我們現在疫苗都是譬如說診所的醫生自己去領取那個冷鏈的過程有沒有達到那個標準"},{"start":27051.246,"end":27078.88,"text":"其實都有一些風險我覺得也應該由政府去建制冷鏈的配送機制有的天氣這麼熱有時候他帶一個什麼我不知道他是不是用保溫袋我不知道啦萬一如果那個配送的標準冷鏈的機制不一那都會影響疫苗的品質所以我覺得領取疫苗由我們政府來配送或用什麼樣的配送機制我覺得我們應該全國一致性的去做演繹部長你懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":27079.912,"end":27092.165,"text":"好 我想因為每一個診所的設備不太一樣的確有蠻多診所在冷鏈的處理上面會產生他過去拿的人的標準 保溫的標準都不一定會影響冷鏈的品質我們會請各縣市的衛生局"},{"start":27097.271,"end":27111.088,"text":"其實他們都很用心在幫忙我沒有鎖定他們的用心但是我覺得為了保障疫苗的品質我覺得更應該就是一個一致性還是要感謝各縣市衛生局其實在這方面都很努力在幫忙"},{"start":27111.949,"end":27133.356,"text":"部長因為我知道但是我提醒的是我們應該要有一個一致冷鏈的配送機制政府來要求甚至來補助來講一個SOP的標準我們疫苗送到各診所那個疫苗才不會配送過程當中有品質的影響打下去的效果就有差院長你應該聽懂我在講什麼啦"},{"start":27134.929,"end":27149.688,"text":"我覺得這個是我中心的建議但我覺得這應該是一致性的去處理好 最後幾點我長期要求的之前我在講 帶狀性炮症疫苗院長跟部長在現場都答應我要去做評估"},{"start":27150.851,"end":27177.347,"text":"那到現在已經又過了半年你們已經上任一年了我要的是一個HTA的報告書今天不管我們有沒有錢可以做我們要做風險評估才能去編列預算我們才知道高風險群哪些我們應該有機會施打不要說連一個風險評估連一個研究報告書都做不出來那我們所有委員坐在這邊質詢就沒有意義所有的疫苗政策是重要的"},{"start":27178.672,"end":27199.554,"text":"我覺得一個評估報告書應該不困難院長你了解我意思嗎我要一個帶狀性泡診的一個評估報告書今天不管我們能不能全國國人都施打還是我們給高風險群施打還是我們施打要多少錢我們總要一個評估報告我們才知道我們可不可以做我們要不要做"},{"start":27200.074,"end":27220.347,"text":"我在這邊院長你應該有印象這不是我質詢第一次我長期關注這個議題我現在不是要求說你給我錢我希望三個月裡面給我一個HTA的評估報告書我知道部長非常的努力但我覺得這件事情到現在我問了第二次了還沒有落實到所以部長可不可以提供我這個報告書"},{"start":27221.468,"end":27229.918,"text":"好的 報告委員 其實我們都有一個ACIP 就是疫苗評估小組他會針對疫苗裡面我們特別針對帶段炮準 我們特別來評估來跟委員報告好 因為我只剩下兩分半鐘的時間另外最後一個 我長期關注的 有時候失智症"},{"start":27242.612,"end":27250.1,"text":"院長部長現在失智症的人越來越多114年開始我們修改了失智症的照護計畫我們現在分兩種一種是社區型的失智據點另外一個是醫院內的全責失智據點這兩個失智據點其實我覺得做得非常的好"},{"start":27258.55,"end":27288.17,"text":"那我們現在衛福部把用差異化的照顧方式有一些可能他有一些症狀的我們就把他移到醫院的全職機關去做照護這件事情方向是對的我個人也肯定但是這會變成說我們現在社區失智據點的照顧我們本來是獲得補助是有十個人我們才能補助偏向我們是五個人那我們有一些症狀發生的時候我們現在移到醫院去我是支持的"},{"start":27288.61,"end":27299.213,"text":"但是現在就變成社區沒有補助那很多人就做不下去就不願意做院長 部長我要提的是高齡化社會之後我覺得"},{"start":27299.815,"end":27323.752,"text":"失智症的人有可能越來越多這對年輕人來說也是一個負擔我不希望因為現在已經有的十個人有的一個BPSD的照顧據點因為我們標準是十個人才補助這個據點因為有一些我們標準移到有一些項目的標準我們移到醫院去那他只剩下八個人 七個人他就做不下去 他就不做了"},{"start":27325.1,"end":27346.046,"text":"那當然我覺得這件事情是可惜的因為有一些已經有一些前兆的人他本身就在社區據點已經我們在訓練教育避免他狀況惡化所以這件事情我覺得是不是在重新再研議一下補助的標準可不可以好我想施志政如果施志的"},{"start":27348.686,"end":27366.461,"text":"你答應我就好了啦 部長 院長這個很簡單啦 這個實質證可以齁一個機構如果不是很大 十個人要照顧就已經很困難了我們覺得我們應該從這觀點來看 是不是需要把這個徹底來檢討一下真的照顧需要照顧的人"},{"start":27367.099,"end":27394.975,"text":"就是譬如說八個人你也可以去照顧因為也真的是很辛苦我們高齡化說好我最後一件關稅三二十秒這個議題很重要所以我們這次在關稅的談判當中其實我關注的是美方其實一直關注的一件事情我們沒有提到的我們美國代表相關的議題有提到我們健保的核價制度我們健保核價制度美國其實一直在關注未來我們會不會因為談判去調整我們未來健保制度談判的方法跟方式你直接回應我部長"},{"start":27417.239,"end":27418.739,"text":"謝謝李燕秀委員的質詢,謝謝卓院長、衛福部長備詢,謝謝"},{"start":27422.837,"end":27433.818,"text":"委員會登記第九位楊耀偉委員之諮詢書面提出請行政院書面打覆並列入記錄刊登公報再接下來請麥玉珍委員諮詢廖偉祥委員請準備"},{"start":27450.959,"end":27454.4,"text":"院長好 有請勞動部部長麻煩請勞動部長備詢麻煩院長好"},{"start":27472.332,"end":27487.456,"text":"副長好 你有在立法院在詢答中親口承認會啟動就業安定基金追回程序現在已經三個月過去了 審計部認證被濫用的7200"},{"start":27494.64,"end":27508.089,"text":"7萬224萬你說會追回現在變成要縣行政院爭取未來年度的公務預算來補你的洞請教部長你還認得自己嗎"},{"start":27509.851,"end":27534.37,"text":"這就是你要追回的方法嗎你現在不遠而直接就讓全民買單嗎你連在立院執行答應的都可以翻臉不認賬你這不是在惡整勞工嗎在欺騙企業嗎你現在又用什麼auto來讓民眾相信你會追責呢"},{"start":27536.525,"end":27540.147,"text":"我會按審計部的要求來啟動追回的程序我希望你講重點不要講重點你怎麼樣去做蔓圓這就是重點"},{"start":27556.857,"end":27581.181,"text":"我說了 我從頭到尾都是說 三個月了所以說 三個月前跟三個月後 我都是說就是你做的事情在二診嗎二元我要講重點啊 你要讓我講重點啊好 重點 重點是 我一直以來都是說我會按照審計部的要求來啟動追回的程序"},{"start":27582.784,"end":27607.269,"text":"審計部在後來的這個認定的報告裡面很清楚的是跟我們說這是修正簡列是修正簡列所以後來我的回答我們基本上都是按照審計部的要求來說明我們會來啟動後續相關的程序後續相關的程序是要用我們公務預算來去補這個洞"},{"start":27612.729,"end":27617.517,"text":"是這樣子嗎麥委員審計部最後在審計的報告裡面是認定這是修正檢列"},{"start":27618.857,"end":27634.98,"text":"修正檢列的意思就是修正檢列的意思不是拿我們人民的血和錢啊蔓委員你沒有了解修正檢列的意思蔓委員我現在講的就是重點審計部是認定修正檢列也就是說在他給我們的報告裡面"},{"start":27642.182,"end":27660.797,"text":"是很清楚包括這一段時間的過程裡面是說這是可以是合屬公預算的資用的範圍這些錢都花掉了你說這樣子的審計部都認定了所以說有一些我覺得你要換個位置要換個腦袋但是問題不在職務不在職務在思維你現在的思維你要"},{"start":27666.742,"end":27693.555,"text":"你要去刮別人的鬍子之前先把你的鬍子刮乾淨先前要把這樣子的話你的頭鞋不代表你的格局所以你有位子但是不代表你的品格高漲你到處去宣傳你叫做我們的藍白二整勞工你才真正的二整勞工三個月了我們沒有看到你的成績"},{"start":27695.356,"end":27717.228,"text":"我們才看到你的高處來去說沒錢辦訊也沒錢管變勞檢人力結果呢你們拿錢拿救安基金去養婉君去辦演唱會更離譜的你們現在還打算不追回了還想想胖就拿我們政府的錢來給你"},{"start":27722.431,"end":27738.279,"text":"如果司法已經確認勞動部亂花錢,你要如何去追究?你說已經改革上路了,但是我請問你的改革是什麼?到底是改什麼革?"},{"start":27739.278,"end":27758.059,"text":"那你要不要讓我說明好,一分鐘好,第一個勞動部是一個行政機關我們必須按照審計的要求來進行後續的相關的程序這件事情從頭到尾我都是這樣子主張到目前為止我們都是按照審計的要求來進行後續的程序"},{"start":27758.76,"end":27775.531,"text":"第二個你跟我說相關的改革相關的改革已經開始啟動了勞動部在一月的時候就已經提出救安基金的三個面向跟六個策略的改革的計畫目前改革是現在進行式就追回的做法我要跟委員說明委員你剛才說錯了"},{"start":27777.578,"end":27792.248,"text":"現在是審計部已經下了相關的認定但是司法的部分也就是檢調的部分確實還在做相關的偵辦所以我才問你說如何去追究對於個人責任的部分不要說就一直在說審計部我們會配合我希望我們我們這邊不要再去"},{"start":27798.312,"end":27819.363,"text":"沒錯 但是你問題 你的改革我們沒有看到 已經三個月了都聽你的講而已啦 你很厲害所以我們希望你怎麼去追究 現在已經上路了你要的 你是真的 你說的 你現在你就是追究怎麼去追款 我們要的具體的 好不好如果你說有了 你就是要準備怎麼樣去幫我們不是"},{"start":27824.065,"end":27838.972,"text":"看到你的你不追回你還要用說準備用我們人民的血汗錢幫你去還債這個就是你的改革你的改革花個這大聲的但是呢實際這事在於包括讓這些讓人民誰進發"},{"start":27843.034,"end":27866.404,"text":"現在我希望你要提出最具體的立即追回不準規定還有嚴懲的到底部長你能做到嗎就是要兌現你對人民的承諾所以你現在你能做到嗎不用再去說審計部你能不能做到把這筆錢追回才是你要承諾的事情"},{"start":27867.324,"end":27884.776,"text":"這七千多萬就是來自審計部的報告所以我們從頭到尾都按照審計部所列出來的事情不是要做報告你如何來去追回不是用我們人民的血汗錢來拔你的坑不是這樣子的所以我們希望我們來的是解決問題不是來給你氣董拔杯啦我以為你說的水流傳播但是要沒拔票啦我們要的是實質"},{"start":27896.363,"end":27915.184,"text":"所以說這個部分我們希望的是實質承諾對我們人民要追回這個錢不是要去說審計部要說什麼錢這個部分你要真正的對人民承諾不用再跟我解釋第二個我要請問你的議員你在質詢我你叫我不要跟你解釋"},{"start":27915.845,"end":27943.726,"text":"你不用跟我解釋你要對人民交代所以你說這題你要對人民交代是追回不要再去說那些對個人責任的部分我們會配合檢調配合司法來做個人責任的追究甚至是追討我希望你要去真實的我不用跟你解釋我時間有限你已經在浪費我的時間了你沒有回答真正的問題你沒辦法去承諾你就直接說承諾就好了回答那麼多幹嘛你浪費我的時間你要把時間賠給我"},{"start":27944.286,"end":27959.725,"text":"現在我們要問那個第二題了我叫你要承諾的要追回不是要講其他的我們都按照審計部的相關的要求辦理我要問第二題了"},{"start":27961.547,"end":27985.823,"text":"他沒有對我承諾所以他浪費我時間可以停止我時間沒有他要賠我時間好近期我們僑生在台灣留學的制度所以要怎麼樣去包裝成為以補我們勞動力的缺口這替代品就像說不開放移工的李樹葉現在呢卻引進我們的僑生還有說我們東南亞的外籍實習生以實習的名義實際上"},{"start":27991.707,"end":28006.877,"text":"却变成就是补充我们台湾劳动力的短缺的救济到场所以当这些乔生还有外籍生实际成为劳动力的时候我们产生的实习仪"},{"start":28007.617,"end":28027.928,"text":"工作邊緣的模糊的情況勞動部有跟我們僑委會共同去針對這些實習生還有場域的監督查訪還有有沒有明確實習生於工作的界線的範疇內回答一下"},{"start":28035.791,"end":28038.803,"text":"關於僑生的部分主管機關是教育部跟僑委會"},{"start":28042.796,"end":28050.103,"text":"我問你的不是說你跟他怎麼樣我跟你的是問你的說你們的監督權現在是實習生實習生變成是一個就是廉價的勞動所以我們要問你的是在這樣子的實習的時候我們沒有開放移工但是呢在服務業的時候勞動部是否就是"},{"start":28067.64,"end":28083.944,"text":"默認就是企業以僑生實習的方式就是變相的雇用如何確保這些實習生的有沒有符合勞動的基準法中的用於技術生的規範與權益我問了他們的工作的權益"},{"start":28088.783,"end":28106.574,"text":"蔓園因為喬生他是一個學生的身份學生的身份他做實習實習的部分確實主管機關是教育部然後喬也會來協助那如果喬生畢業了以後他要留台工作這個部分就會是勞動部主管的部分"},{"start":28107.065,"end":28126.63,"text":"我問東你講西所以說你完全你不是專業嗎我問的是說現在的實習生實習生就是就是現在他們在這邊做的時候業者違法批用實習生申請了管道或者他的保障"},{"start":28127.25,"end":28144.543,"text":"有沒有對他們有幫助事實他來讀書是一回事但是他既在實習在工作的時候是你在管啥的所以說在關於這個你都沒有去管事實習的部分還是教育部在主管的"},{"start":28145.421,"end":28161.592,"text":"在勞動基準中基準法中他使用基督生來的就放回來去用的權利他還是在勞導這邊的你不用再去講那個那個不是他讀書的是教育不管"},{"start":28162.732,"end":28170.117,"text":"喬生是他來讀書的管這工作是你管的很簡單的事情你回答五三三所以說我們希望這個比例還有他的實習的時數產學合一他們已經簽了但是實習的時數還有實習的品質或者是真的是他的實習嗎還是就是變成打工我們要的是說你今天要去讀書要進來讀書還是來做工作"},{"start":28192.812,"end":28211.502,"text":"我們希望說在工作他是實習但是會不會變成是廉價的勞工所以我們希望要爭取人才留在台灣所以希望說目前我們的學生在台灣有保障所以才要去問你但是你一問三不知但是再來我再問你的我不知道你懂不懂"},{"start":28216.284,"end":28232.595,"text":"這個我沒有疑問三不知我還是要再說明一次學生的實習這部分不是勞動部主管的沒有勞動部主管是你在主管的因為他一定要有工作時數時數的時候就是你在管的"},{"start":28233.115,"end":28242.446,"text":"所以呢他是有打工的時候是你在管的所以我才問你有沒有管到就完全你沒有在管所以你不知道所以第二個我在問你的是說我們就強調說我們應該爭取人才留在台灣"},{"start":28248.212,"end":28265.565,"text":"但是目前我們僑生畢業後呢留在台灣找工作一年可以延長到兩年但是呢在這個工作時間找工作的時間他們完全不能做任何的工作所以對他們來說是不是可以放寬讓這個一個"},{"start":28268.067,"end":28286.392,"text":"那個僑生他在找工作畢業後這兩年是不是有一些他可以去接案就是比較特定的類別就是自媒體啊社企啊文創啊有沒有考慮放寬讓這個僑生在找工作的時間他有接這樣子的案不能說我找工作兩年沒辦法做什麼我就沒辦法"},{"start":28301.019,"end":28313.708,"text":"如果喬生已經畢業了他找工作的階段我們確實有在思考怎麼樣擴大喬生可以留在台灣工作的可能性包括其實讓他相關的工作的許可能夠放得更寬鬆"},{"start":28315.009,"end":28343.104,"text":"那這部分我們確實有在這個相關的政策有在研議中但是我這邊指的是喬森已經畢業以後他進入到找工作的這個階段但是實習的部分還是不在我說的範圍裡那我就問董事長我知道說范寬斯說他的資本額是企業的我問的是這兩年在找工作的時間他規定上是不能去工作但是在這兩年什麼都不能做他要找工作很辛苦"},{"start":28344.725,"end":28346.207,"text":"什麼都不能做是不是放寬讓他們有可以做一些接單的或者是說自媒體的設計的文創的所以說考慮就是特定類別跟特殊的知道嗎不是說什麼都可以做"},{"start":28362.009,"end":28389.363,"text":"所以呢我講的是畢業後放寬跟他這兩年不一樣不一樣啦你真的跳沒有啦所以呢你也不知道啦所以說這是我們現在要跟你好"},{"start":28395.754,"end":28396.434,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們卓院長"},{"start":28425.063,"end":28426.845,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢廖委員好院長好 院長辛苦了院長第一題我想要請問一下有關明年度各級的學校寒假跟農曆春假中間有三天你可以看一下簡報上面"},{"start":28452.558,"end":28478.314,"text":"還有2月11號到2月13號這個空窗期然後馬上又接著是農曆的過年所以這事情其實有很多的家長抱怨大家都覺得學校這樣子的放假安排是很荒謬行程的規劃會大亂然後返鄉的車票也不好買最重要是孩子學習的連貫性也是一個問題更不要忘記冬季還是流感的流行季"},{"start":28478.894,"end":28506.903,"text":"那很多公衛的學者也說盡量不要大規模的人流移動也可能造成醫療體系的負荷所以希望院長您看到這個狀況是不是可以體諒跟理解家長老師和這個醫療體系他們相關的擔憂是不是這個部分因為休假部分行政部門應該就可以去修改這個相關的規則可不可以請院長在這部分體諒一下學生和這些家長們相關的擔憂"},{"start":28508.759,"end":28532.606,"text":"確實因為明年這個春節的時間的提前所以變成說當有一天這個未來補假的問題會產生問題228好像這一天我如果沒有記錯到228這一天如果補假會變成沒有放假又變成補假所以院長我是希望在大年初四這一天對我是希望說您這個這個部分是不是可以去調整有非常多的家長在反映我們現在在"},{"start":28534.106,"end":28559.634,"text":"過春節連假的當中這一天我們有在注意到這三天有空窗期啊再請院長是不是回去研議一下看怎麼把它調整不然連貫在一起這個要跟教育單位去各個提醒謝謝米倫的提醒好不好那院長再來我想要請教一下你你有沒有看過這個美國白宮的經濟顧問委員會的主席米倫在入閣前他有提出的報告中的一項計畫左邊這邊"},{"start":28563.39,"end":28583.847,"text":"他其實就是現在的海湖莊園協議那他提到關稅作為談判工具那他的目的是要逼迫其他國家升值他們的匯率並購買美國國債最終讓美元大幅貶值那這份計畫就是所謂的海湖莊園協議那他裡面也提到經過一連串的這個關稅懲罰性關稅之後貿易夥伴"},{"start":28590.513,"end":28608.832,"text":"更容易接受某種形式的貨幣協議來換取降低關稅那麼現在其實很多人也是幾乎所有的財經學者都在說這個海湖狀元協議其實就是廣場協議2.0的版本那這個海湖狀元協議裡面還有一個核心理念院長"},{"start":28610.061,"end":28618.105,"text":"請聽一下就是美國提供軍事保護那貿易夥伴需要付出的代價包含配合美國讓貨幣升值以換取"},{"start":28621.228,"end":28644.815,"text":"這個美元貶值然後購買低利率的超長期美國國債來減輕美國的債務壓力那其實這聽起來是很瘋狂可是其實他很符合川普覺得盟友應該為美國軍事保護買單他不喜歡美元太強的這個概念那根據上面的內容以及相關的報導其實台灣可以說對美國來講是一個"},{"start":28647.137,"end":28660.357,"text":"這個有關商周也說這叫做夢幻客戶那有幾個條件台灣都滿足第一個我們高度仰賴美國市場第二個需要美國的保護第三個也深怕我們美國視為我們是匯率操縱國"},{"start":28662.62,"end":28686.712,"text":"所以也是被認為說我們是很快迅速在這個慘判中會妥協的那院長在這部分也很巧在五月一號行政院五月一號的時候稱台美完成首輪磋商那隔天五月二號匯率就大升值所以因此根據前面所說我想大家最想問的就是究竟我們是否在這個匯率上面跟美國有達成某種協議嗎"},{"start":28689.827,"end":28712.405,"text":"5月1號的這個由副院長領軍的談判團跟美方的協議談判過程當中我再次重調沒有涉及任何的關稅問題是好我知道匯率問題我有看你們這兩天的說法其實基本上您跟楊建宗總裁還有賴清德總統都說是沒有涉及到匯率可是我從上述的幾個論證幾個事件"},{"start":28715.327,"end":28735.422,"text":"告訴你其實很難讓民眾相信但因為這麼巧就在這個時候台幣的匯率暴升不過我就想追問那請問目前你們說沒有但未來是否會將匯率跟這個超長期的低利率美國國債當成談判籌碼之一以換取低關稅以及美國提供的軍事保護"},{"start":28736.514,"end":28743.498,"text":"目前談判的內容當然我們不便對外說但是我們有說明的現在談判的內容就是在對等關稅 非關稅貿易障礙 出國管制 經濟安全等等"},{"start":28749.98,"end":28770.02,"text":"那也就是說您不排除把這兩項當成是未來的籌碼之一這個說法我早上說過不能這麼武斷的說排除不排除還沒有發生的事情還沒發生那就是不排除啦其實院長應該就是這樣啦關稅跟非關稅貿易障礙還有出國管制另外還有經濟安全來做好院長我要提醒你啦 就是說"},{"start":28771.328,"end":28793.704,"text":"你剛剛這句話其實就是在算是避重用詞你不能這樣解讀我絕對沒有這樣的意思其實簡單來講你是說不能排除好沒關係我想要跟院長說的是在1985年的廣場協議之後其實可以看到日本的下場就是失落了30年不管是經濟房地產或者是產業外移所以其實有這次的前車之鑒你可以看到"},{"start":28794.645,"end":28815.5,"text":"跟美日談判的時候日本首相是強硬的表示不會為了協議犧牲日本的利益那我這裡要再請院長因為你剛剛還是沒有辦法講清楚嘛那我還是說希望站在國家利益不要一味的妥協不要短視應該為了我們國家的利益長遠的利益來著想不要讓這個海湖狀元協議變成台灣的廣場協議2.0好嗎"},{"start":28819.247,"end":28834.486,"text":"這個總統在聲明當中已經說過了他會爭取國家的利益他也不會放過任何一個產業但是院長我跟你講這前後這樣子講起來其實以上不管執政團隊有沒有談或者是有沒有把它未來變成是一個籌碼之一"},{"start":28835.407,"end":28856.978,"text":"其實我們在這裡要對國人做一個正面的宣示就是談判的過程沒有匯率院長您先聽我講完吧好我現在沒有在講這個我現在告訴你說不管到底有沒有相不相信這個你們講你們覺得我也都相信你們講的話但是現在的重點事實擺在眼前的是還沒變成籌碼之一我們台幣就已經迅速的升值"},{"start":28858.098,"end":28864.963,"text":"已經迅速的升值所以我想要請教院長在台幣迅速升值跟關稅的雙夾擊之下這樣對於我國出口產業的短期衝擊和長期衝擊是什麼請教院長"},{"start":28871.517,"end":28892.215,"text":"最近一周以來台幣的強勁的升值當然對我們的產業造成相當大的衝擊那我們現在包括央行也從過去穩定貨幣的相關政策之下我們持續的加強各種觀察院長你曉得短期衝擊是什麼嗎?您可以舉幾個例子嗎?我說的是這個禮拜以來啦上個禮拜到現在"},{"start":28893.676,"end":28915.189,"text":"匯率急速升值這件事情照理說應該已經要去評估了吧好沒關係院長你如果沒有辦法條列式的講出來我跟你講有幾個衝擊第一個毛利率跟獲利縮水這個很嚴重部分的代工業和製造業他一夕就是轉成本來的譬如說5%好了他迅速拉升了10%他就虧錢了這個單就虧錢了"},{"start":28917.27,"end":28938.357,"text":"甚至我們地方上有產業界的龍頭說他一年出口已經被下訂了五千個貨櫃就迅速升值可能會虧爆打到建股他本來還不是出口美國他本來是歐洲市場所以他本來沒有想到這麼嚴重連匯率都變成這樣的情況之下他基本上是被打到建股"},{"start":28939.097,"end":28963.684,"text":"這是第一個跟我們的院長報告第一個短期的衝擊第二個是現金流跟他的財務壓力那第三個就是訂單的成本和採購延後第四個是避險的成本跟他們要操作的難度很拉高這些中小企業大企業可能還可以小企業就很辛苦還有另外同業的競爭力跟市場的地位這五個是短期衝擊"},{"start":28964.804,"end":28983.917,"text":"那再來長期衝擊長期這樣子維持我們的匯率往上走請問院長我要告訴你的是第一個長期的他的毛利跟獲利也會持續的壓縮再來我們國家出口量跟訂單會縮減再來就是我們生產的產地跟供應鏈要重組"},{"start":28985.799,"end":29001.481,"text":"所以再來最後一個是我們的產業的結構轉型的壓力所以我就想要我剛剛問的問題就是顯示出院長你們好像對於這個評估並沒有很詳細的評估這讓我們的中小企業很擔心委員你這個"},{"start":29002.56,"end":29020.588,"text":"非常有學術專業但是我跟你們報告央行長期對匯率的掌握就是定期在做這樣的評估只是現在針對快速上漲的這幾天以來央行昨天已經對外宣布了他的說法那我再進一步問你"},{"start":29021.536,"end":29042.512,"text":"那對於這個勞工的評估勞工權益的衝擊因為剛剛講是產業的部分那接下來最重要我們最關心的也就是我們的勞工我們產業支持不下去的時候失業勞工的狀況就可能會發生所以我們其實現在很擔心這個我剛剛也苦口婆心的在問的就是看到目前為止行政院好像對於關稅之外對於這個匯率的雙重的夾擊"},{"start":29046.295,"end":29075.435,"text":"並沒有去做一個很詳盡的評估剛剛已經說了這個是讓我們很擔心的央行長期以來定期在做這些評估你又說沒有評估這不對啊其實這個題目啊上週二啊這個牛許廷委員也問了問你們有沒有做關稅關稅以外有沒有做匯率衝擊的評估其實你們那時候回答的就是沒有所以過了一個禮拜之後央行定期都有來報告相關的內容昨天央行已經對外說了我們要點出嚴重性喔所以想要問你喔其實"},{"start":29076.355,"end":29097.609,"text":"在我國現在美國市場簡單來講我們衝擊很大本來關稅是第一個衝擊美國的衝擊再來就是匯率提升之外就是出口商等等的然後再來就是我們國人就業問題那還有一些所謂的這個上市公司鼓勵有一些股民的權益也可能會受到這個影響所以其實我上次在質詢的時候也說"},{"start":29098.705,"end":29118.136,"text":"這次4100億的這個預算裡面你們針對這個農工產業的補助是930億那其實我是認為遠遠不夠那對於勞犬的部分是150億所以這個部分我想要請這個院長剛剛講到衝擊評估的部分第一個是不是可以請院長盡速的"},{"start":29120.241,"end":29143.533,"text":"將這個有關於關稅以及匯率的雙重夾擊之下的不同情境可不可以有個比較這個嚴謹的評估報告可以交給本席包含比如說1比30有沒有辦法維穩在1比30左右那如果掉到1比28或是掉到1比25會發生什麼事情受衝擊的產業規模跟人數勞工的人數這是我們現在關心的事情要拜託院長"},{"start":29144.523,"end":29164.301,"text":"另外外界也普遍認為新台幣的30元就是維持在1比30的部分是心理跟經濟的雙重關卡如果守不住的話也會恐怕不只是無薪假的問題也可能引發大規模的失業所以包含我們中部的關鍵產業工具機來講所以2024年的時候其實我們比2014年的工具機產業已經下滑65%"},{"start":29171.209,"end":29193.489,"text":"可是今年又遇到這樣子的匯率升值很可能會滅團很擔心會有大量的倒閉潮和滅團那張忠謀董事長曾經也說過新台幣如果對美元如果升值1%他們的營業利率就會減少0.4%甚至有一些評估就是關於上市櫃公司可能縮減的是7.5%其實我們要講的是這些詳細的數據這些是一些金融行業估出來的"},{"start":29199.096,"end":29222.932,"text":"所以我們其實最擔心的就是最終吳興跟柴源草的來臨那本席這邊希望因為過去你們上次是編930億那支持勞工150億可是你同時有拿了1500億來做所謂的任性但是其實我們在看的時候跟所謂的關稅跟我們的匯率跟民生的關聯不大那我這邊是覺得這1500億應該是不是歸回公務總預算裡面那應該把這1500億立即注入"},{"start":29228.676,"end":29240.143,"text":"跟這些勞工產業有關的急迫需求所以本席的具體建議包含我們勞工的部分因為勞工部長也上來嘛其實我很擔心的是這個那我們希望具體建議的是"},{"start":29241.837,"end":29258.825,"text":"我希望勞工權益的部分在這4100立面的益利可以加高那包含著什麼包含著產業的部分的話就是金融支持因為現在已經不只是對美出口的基期的問題你上次說是10%基期的問題現在已經不只是這個部分是全部出口產業"},{"start":29259.705,"end":29286.156,"text":"所以這部分也要滾動調整要請院長回去金融支持的部分要加大第二個勞動的部分我們希望可以增加我們的勞工權益就是我們安心及時上工這個東西可以請我們的部長因為這個過去在疫情期間是有這樣子的支持那現在因為要還有一定的程序要走因為它不是常態性的所以這個部分是不是可以請院長和部長回去去盡速的研議"},{"start":29288.762,"end":29310.019,"text":"其實過去相關有的就業工具其實我們都已經盤點都已經做相關的準備了可是每一個工具要實施的時間點適合的時間點可能不同現在可能比較會先要先處理的事情是關於減班休息這個企業如果發生減班休息的話我們怎麼如何因應來支持勞工那剛剛廖委員說的安心及時上工我們其實也做了相關的盤點"},{"start":29310.92,"end":29329.306,"text":"可是這部分比較是要來創造比較多的公部門的就業的機會來容納失業的勞工那這個部分我們已經做相關的盤點了可是它的實施的時間點可能會跟請問你們現在盤點的時程跟這個規模有沒有反映到現在即將可能來臨的這是第一件事我們現在的工具都已經做了盤點了"},{"start":29330.246,"end":29354.547,"text":"現在是來看哪一個工具不同的適合的時間點我現在提出這兩個具體的要求請您回去研議這兩件事第二個是長年有的請你擴大它的人數和它的規模那再請你們提供一份報告給本席班好 謝謝廖偉強委員的資訊麻煩請行政院將廖委員所取的資料交委員辦公室謝謝卓院長 謝謝勞動部長備詢我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":29712.079,"end":29714.661,"text":"主席 各位官員 卓院長 大家好還有媒體朋友 我想首先請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":29745.369,"end":29772.774,"text":"主委好相信您對這個Economist已經被詢問非常多了但本席今天比較關心的是上禮拜其實我有延續問到天然氣這個問題我想問的是他點出我們台灣的一個國安問題也就是我們能源的海運依賴性他計算出來我們的能源海運依賴性達到97.3%我想請教院長你有沒有什麼解決下降這個依賴性的方案或是方法"},{"start":29774.056,"end":29797.078,"text":"我們用LNG天然氣來轉換成來取代煤這是一個橋接的過程在國家的能源政策上面這是橋接過程所必須要面臨的當然我們也知道儲存的期間運送的方式對國家的挑戰是很大的但是相較底下如果讓繼續燃燒煤的話對國人的健康空氣的污染"},{"start":29797.598,"end":29824.51,"text":"減碳淨零的目標更遙遠不過不管是煤或者是天然氣其實它還是海運的依賴性非常的大但是輕重有別我現在等一下還會再給你看一些國外的智庫或者是媒體或是學者給您的一些資料事實上美方給過我們非常多的建議那我相信卓院長也有聆聽他們對我們軍事方面的建議對吧"},{"start":29825.475,"end":29845.118,"text":"也有討論過一些機會當然最近他們非常頻繁的從3月之後也許是因為全世界都知道我們5月17號以後核電就沒有了我們就是成為正式的非核家園所以全世界有在注意我們的能源政策還有我們的國安危機等等的"},{"start":29845.638,"end":29868.713,"text":"那當然我也覺得我可以跟院長一起來看一下美方對我們有什麼具體的建議那為什麼會提古立言是因為他從三月開始不管是在他自己個人還有他去演講的場合其中包括我跟賴清德總統都同時出席的美國商會他都有講到這樣子的話那昨天呢他也發文了"},{"start":29869.053,"end":29898.345,"text":"他還發到AIT官方的粉絲專頁上面他講到說其實美國願意盡全力來協助解決台灣的能源需求包括在核能方面美國準備好例如小型的反應爐SMR也樂意幫助台灣解決核廢料儲存的挑戰因為你也知道我們在教育委員會討論的時候其實許多委員還是提到核廢料這樣子的問題"},{"start":29899.045,"end":29925.625,"text":"所以美方已經提出關於核能不管是願意協助您的方案或者是您覺得很燙手的這個核廢料的問題不知道您有沒有希望可以跟他們達成一個合作或是跟他們有初步的對話呢好 報告委員三項原則是我們一直對外來宣布第一個就是核能的安全沒有顧慮第二是核廢料有適當的去處第三個就是當社會有共識所以"},{"start":29926.735,"end":29947.82,"text":"我是沒有辦法很確定要如何幫我們處理核廢料那我們現在已經很多核廢料沒有辦法處理那你還問我說核廢料放在我家我要不要收多少錢其實他只是釋出了一個您可以去找他對談或是找他合作他開了一個窗口我現在只是問您有沒有願意去跟他談論這些"},{"start":29950.154,"end":29966.988,"text":"我們對於新的核能跟解決現在目前傳統核能的問題我們都樂於採取開放態度找任何專家來談找任何可以解決的方式共同來研究非常好那我也期待未來可以看到您跟鼓勵員或是AIT可以有一個這樣子的會談"},{"start":29968.149,"end":29997.028,"text":"他之前在接受台北時報的專訪也有講到說很多美國其實想要來擴大投資比如說AI但是因為我們高度的依賴進口所以很容易受到封鎖的影響他也在這篇採訪中有提到說包括美國包括日本都有重啟核能另外像我們衛黃委員會有去核三做一個考察不管是專家學者的評估或者是美國舉出許多核電研議安全的例子"},{"start":29998.129,"end":30026.504,"text":"他們是準備好了要幫我們所以我只是想知道在這個這麼急迫的時間因為下一篇媒體其實也蠻急的很多國際焦點都在台灣其實他們都蠻急的我知道院長對於剛上面三個方向也講了很久我聽了您跟許多委員的答詢我只想知道說你有沒有一個期程會去做我們可以開啟這個對話的窗口你說新的核能技術嗎"},{"start":30027.631,"end":30041.578,"text":"是 就是美國所提到的他願意協助我們的核廢料主體等等剛剛處長有提到SMR我們知道SMR還在一個相當漫長的研究的階段他要商轉可能還有一個相當長的時間"},{"start":30042.719,"end":30057.395,"text":"但是我們也願意在這個時候就來討論甚至在技術上如果可以增進我們未來能源的穩定的話當然是可以討論的一個話題那現在我們也在四方各方去尋求各種在新進技術上面的各種資訊"},{"start":30058.783,"end":30083.827,"text":"好 那我希望看到你們有正式的會談接下來我們要給你看華爾街日報他所評論的他的標題其實寫的讓大家也覺得對於能源政策是不是符合我們的國家安全感到緊張他說其實北京是喜歡台灣非核家園的他認為台灣把自己弄到能源的脆弱性是自找的"},{"start":30084.187,"end":30112.876,"text":"因為我們現在您剛提到很多再生能源可是再生能源之前有開了一些支票這些支票的比例是跳票的那我們現在又貿然把核電全部停掉更是加大了我們最依賴海運的天然氣或是煤大家都已經點出相同的一個問題了所以我現在也想要知道說您會不會願意聆聽這些國際專家們的建議把這些建議全部納為您未來一個考量"},{"start":30113.536,"end":30135.169,"text":"是的,雖然我們也非常的了解多元發展綠能台灣自己的產業跟國際大廠來都需要買綠電這個前提是一直存在的那我們還是認為說多元發展綠能是我們整個能源穩定供電當中一環重點還是尋求安全穩定的供電這個是政府最高的原則"},{"start":30136.144,"end":30162.552,"text":"但是現在的前提是當大家國際社會對你的能源安全有疑慮的時候你是不是綠電你還沒有辦法達到您所開出來的支票的比例那中間是不是有其他的替代方案嗎跟委員報告到2032年之前我們新的電廠我們從南部的這個大林還有中部的通宵"},{"start":30163.647,"end":30173.978,"text":"還有台中還有南部的興達北部的大潭跟協和六大電廠如果完成加上民營的IPP民營電廠我們的供電量是足以應付的"},{"start":30174.871,"end":30199.903,"text":"我會把這句話記得說您的功力量是足以應付的那當然最後我只想要close一下因為我們現在是台美最好的時刻所以我也在這邊誠摯的建議院長美方對於我們安全的顧慮不斷的建議我也希望您親美也可以聽到我們一起來聆聽我們美國好朋友對我們最真摯而且非常平凡的這些建議好嗎台灣"},{"start":30202.128,"end":30227.077,"text":"要走向全世界不能專聽一個國家或是少數國家的意見我剛講的Economist是歐洲的我們都要聽大家的意見我也曾經上網去找很多國際的媒體有沒有其他的利潤基礎但是現在一致都是很擔心我們的韌性所以在這邊就是提醒院長那剛剛院長也做了一個結論也就是我們是OK的"},{"start":30227.757,"end":30242.033,"text":"剛剛院長做了結論嘛 我們就在這邊留下一個記錄我們自己的電廠跟民營電廠都工程順利完成 情況底下我們是安全無虞的現在我們的責任就是讓這些電廠能夠依時序來上路好 我們下一個"},{"start":30242.614,"end":30257.546,"text":"想要提到這個是我們的陳時中政委他在四月底的時候接受了天下雜誌的專訪他的標題就寫到說台灣的生育率全球後短半他也蠻擔心的因為落後日本"},{"start":30258.286,"end":30279.828,"text":"倒數第二現在南韓正在急起直衝再來他說我們年輕人撫養老人很快在幾十年以內就會從2比1變成1比1他有提到幾個重點他有說到說比如他認為我們補貼的其實是不足的等一下我引用一些數據再來"},{"start":30281.51,"end":30307.317,"text":"他的標題就提到說他認同台灣的單身女性想生孩子而且政府必須要支持最後呢他有講到說我們的環境職場的環境不夠友善育兒這個相信上次我們兩個也一起討論過今天我們要再更深入的去探討所以第一點我們就是要講的是上個會期非常非常可惜啦我覺得最後可能有一點流於這個"},{"start":30309.929,"end":30339.33,"text":"民進黨扛不太住內部的政治壓力最後呢是署長還有部長說雖然提出來的草案現在可能各個委員還沒有辦法達到共識不過他們其實早就準備好了A版跟B版所以隨時都可以再拿出來選擇先把人工生殖法脫鉤那脫鉤的話當然對於許多的單身女性也是樂見其成因為他們的卵巢他們的卵子沒有辦法遭受這樣子年齡上的等待嘛"},{"start":30339.87,"end":30352.708,"text":"所以至今呢你們說當時你們手上就已經備好兩個版本了那現在已經過了四個月了我是希望知道說什麼時候行政院才可以送到立法院這樣子的你們早就準備好的版本"},{"start":30356.348,"end":30374.895,"text":"因為這個那個人工生殖法正如委員所提的我們是經過預告然後聽了很多的聲音以後其實部長你很簡單的給我大概一個月兩個月三個月半年你稍微給我一個數字就好大家關心這個議題的人是想要知道一個時程應該在"},{"start":30379.511,"end":30386.418,"text":"下個會期前會下個會期以前好那這個就是本席需要知道的答案就這樣子而已謝謝部長"},{"start":30388.885,"end":30409.525,"text":"再來我們看這個圖主委長已經看過非常多次了2019年蔡英文喊出0到6歲國家一起養的政策以後我們台灣的新生兒人數是這個降的速度實在是太快了不忍心看啦越跌越快龍年比兔年少原本你們預期的高點這個也是大家都已經問過你的"},{"start":30410.546,"end":30429.024,"text":"那這邊呢 他在專訪中 陳政委在專訪中講到說對比其他面臨少子化危機的國家比如說法國或日本他認為我們投資的比例是低的你有沒有機會我們可以把這樣子總預算的比例再來拉高呢您覺得 您認同嗎這個報告委員"},{"start":30433.917,"end":30447.228,"text":"國家的財政能力持續在改善當中所以我覺得我們更有能力來面對這樣的問題而且少子女化的問題是國安問題我們承諾在明年的預算當中一定想辦法來寬裂人口對策的這個方式"},{"start":30449.79,"end":30476.798,"text":"是那陳時中政委他有一個蠻具體而且他應該訪查過非常多的人所提出的他認為啦現在政府所提供的育兒津貼零零總總第一個很難選擇第二個你要到處去蒐集那我試算過了如果我們就台北市來看啊你把每一個津貼都領完可能還不到兩萬塊但是政委他認為覺得一定要讓人民有感有感他認為是折合台幣三萬元"},{"start":30478.078,"end":30490.871,"text":"他這樣子才會有感才讓年輕人有動力來生小孩不曉得我們這邊是不是有機會可以努力的去配合到他認為這個有感的方案現在我們正進入到明年"},{"start":30492.409,"end":30515.92,"text":"總預算 概算的構想當中但是一方面因為國際的情勢到底是變化萬千我們恆珠國內我們自己的財政能力我剛剛已經答應過委員了在人口對策的這個向下我們會想盡辦法來編列寬裕的是的 我這邊也只是希望您可以在一個月內給我一個可行性的評估跟報告好嗎"},{"start":30517.085,"end":30522.631,"text":"就把我們的概算一直往前走我覺得大概就可以了解到我們的方向最後呢我要講這個"},{"start":30525.635,"end":30549.615,"text":"彈性工時彈性的育兒這是陳時中政委也很重視因為他說企業必須要依照員工來提供相對應的彈性價因為人力很吃緊而且台灣八成是中小企業這個事辦計畫真的做得非常的差我在這邊先給您看一段我質詢等一下可以跟你邀到一個書面資料你已經找誰做的溝通跟統整"},{"start":30550.135,"end":30555.436,"text":"部長在委員會的質詢的時候是跟我說他跟很多的機關團體都做過討論不過他沒有留下會議記錄非常的可惜那這個他還講不出什麼時候可以開始事辦計畫但我也用他之前的質詢來告訴院長他遇到什麼問題"},{"start":30575.321,"end":30595.208,"text":"我們都很清楚可是我們必須起步我們不能再逃避這個問題了院長現在擺在眼前的是我們接下來的這個狀況會越惡劣問題會越大會越不公平性別不平等問題也會更加劇這是現在的問題所以就算沒辦法完全解決我們也必須面對現在是我們這個時間點已經不得不做的事情所以我很希望我們可以從行政院的角度來去處理這個問題我也不希望只是丟給勞動部"},{"start":30595.848,"end":30613.458,"text":"他從2023年的年底,您可以看得出來洪部長非常的急,我覺得甚至他這個急迫的程度是更甚於我啦他從2023年年底就很關心這樣子的議題,請問您可以在一個月內也可以評估這個可行性嗎?因為我們從2023年我就用"},{"start":30616.28,"end":30625.493,"text":"洪偉仁當時的質詢來告訴你遇到的困境是因為院長必須要整合衛福部還有勞動部才能夠一起做到可不可以在公務部門做事辦計畫"},{"start":30626.913,"end":30650.019,"text":"我覺得洪委員到洪部長熱情絲毫沒有改變是 看得出來那個跟陳委員報告到目前為止我們都還非常非常積極的跟包括跟相關的團體跟產業跟企業在討論彈性暈流停的事辦的方案我們希望能夠做得更到位甚至更彈性多久以內我們可以看到這個院長所主持的可行性報告"},{"start":30671.94,"end":30679.983,"text":"好 謝謝陳金威委員質詢謝謝卓院長衛福部還有勞動部兩位部長的背景 謝謝接下來我們請林淑芬委員質詢馬文君委員請準備"},{"start":30688.476,"end":30692.879,"text":"好 謝謝院長 是不是卓院長需要喝一口水嗎麻煩卓院長喝口水以後再備選"},{"start":30708.437,"end":30721.122,"text":"議員好院長辛苦了大概是去年的10月1號大概是8個月了我在這裡也是總質詢那詢問你關於這個形式上的糾紛的醫療鑑定的問題"},{"start":30723.883,"end":30751.609,"text":"那這個就是我再提醒你一下就是刑事訴訟法208條修法以後有關於刑事的醫療糾紛沒有辦法因為醫療醫事鑑定停擺所以所有的刑事訴訟都沒有辦法進行那這個事情我想我會在這裡八個月以後繼續質詢你就知道事情沒有解決"},{"start":30752.765,"end":30773.759,"text":"那在去年的5月1號到現在修法到現在已經剛好整整滿一年了你可以可想而知台灣一年會有多少醫療糾紛需要刑事訴訟而刑事訴訟的前提要建立在醫療糾紛的醫事責任鑑定上面"},{"start":30777.702,"end":30795.998,"text":"那新的修法規定說所有的鑑定你都必須自然人要拒絕、要拒明而且要倒庭以言辭說明那對現行的醫事上的鑑定制度造成很大的衝擊那我又提醒你說我們的醫審會他們拒絕再鑑定了"},{"start":30801.022,"end":30816.879,"text":"所以從去年的大概8月15號以後吧8月15號到現在也將近9個月了我們的醫審會拒絕全台灣拒絕受理任何的醫療糾紛的醫事鑑定"},{"start":30819.441,"end":30837.715,"text":"所以他們拒絕受理鑑定以後,到現在累積了將近有700件醫療糾紛的案子因為這一次的修法,而導致法務部檢查單位都沒有辦法進行刑事訴訟的程序"},{"start":30840.057,"end":30855.124,"text":"那衛福部也堅持立場這個司法院也堅持立場而八個月以前我拜託你能不能進行願計協調那時候你答應我可是到現在仍然停擺怎麼辦"},{"start":30856.943,"end":30870.693,"text":"部長為什麼八個月來我們的進展如此之慢沒有再收到新的一個報告非常抱歉部長能不能說明一下我再補充一點部長你可以想一下我覺得這個東西對人民很不公平因為會形成一種壓力"},{"start":30873.235,"end":30896.471,"text":"他會逼迫所有醫療糾紛的兩兆雙方反正你有沒有辦法訴訟這位已經發生了一位啊你不要給我擱啊 我們去協調和解好像是實質上在廢除這個醫療責任的這個刑事責任了好像廢除了 好像真正的去刑責化了醫療糾紛去刑責化"},{"start":30899.212,"end":30921.065,"text":"要真的去行這話也可以 大家社會來對話 修法可是沒有修法 逼迫很多人被迫要去協調 被迫要去和解拖了一年 眼看著訴訟無望 只好覺得身心俱疲沒有辦法再去為自己討公道 只好被迫和解"},{"start":30921.525,"end":30944.76,"text":"又少數幾個案子是這樣子但絕大多數都還是繼續在要爭一口氣要還給家屬或是病人公道但是這個到底是司法院繼續堅持己見衛福部繼續堅持己見然後兩兆雙方拖著犧牲的都是病人的權益"},{"start":30946.657,"end":30971.472,"text":"報告委員其實我們非常重視這個問題也一直在溝通這絕對需要院紀協調的喔所以本部以高等檢察署已經研議短期間解決方案第一個檢察機關...郭台銘你看你都要再看過代表你對這件事說不要緊你都要看過這件事我不知道問過幾百遍"},{"start":30974.611,"end":30984.438,"text":"有鑑定的需要可以洽詢相關的協會或公會你親在公共法律上本來就是這樣寫但是我問你有幾個人你講的時候可以洽詢醫事團體、醫學會、醫院、個別醫生還包括醫省會請問有幾件啊你在這裡給我這樣子敘以為疑請問你剛剛講的可以洽詢請問有真正去洽詢有進行訴訟的有幾件你回答得出來嗎"},{"start":31001.909,"end":31027.085,"text":"如果你回答不出來 不要在這裡對立委虛疑委疑你在這裡是要對人民負責啊你犧牲了每一個告訴人的 當事人的這個訴訟的權益耶所以在這種狀況裡面 我們當初知道司法院一意孤行的修法導致行政機關下的法務部 衛福部 三方僵持不下犧牲了告訴人的權益耶"},{"start":31027.705,"end":31055.108,"text":"那我現在問你全台到現在684件的依舊有312件送醫省會被推薦他不是先擱置就強迫兩兆雙方你不要搞了強迫他犧牲自己的權利放棄自己的權利乾脆你們被迫他是被迫去和解但是他總的來講他不能追他的權利被你們冰凍起來才被迫"},{"start":31056.974,"end":31067.006,"text":"現在想一個辦法要改革 保庭你不知道你裡面有辦法嗎你現在不知道你裡面跟高檢署想了一個方法嗎你不知道喔你不知道 你知不知道我們5月1號開始要辦理一個醫療專業意見的示範計畫這個可以解決大概"},{"start":31076.68,"end":31095.205,"text":"據了解可以解決九成啦九成 可以解決九成我擔心的是你連一成都沒有辦法解決你解決了九成的是行政程序的困擾但你沒有辦法解決的是司法程序的困擾你現在 以醫療專業的意見給檢察機關作為刑事這個偵辦的參考"},{"start":31105.679,"end":31122.973,"text":"連可行性可不可以都不知道所以你們5月1號開始要試辦一個照原來的鑑定的模式但你們要說醫審會的鑑定報告不是鑑定報告了不去鑑定報告的司法的準要件了你們要把它變成專業的意見僅供參考"},{"start":31126.515,"end":31144.246,"text":"僅供檢查機關法務部參考那共識就是說它是詢問你們衛福部的專業的醫療的專業意見作為偵查階段的參考可是它不是醫療鑑定"},{"start":31145.871,"end":31168.925,"text":"然後沒有具名 不需要拒絕 也不需要出庭去結問可是新的刑事訴訟法就不允許這樣子的規定所以你解決了你們檢查機關可能會說依據醫生會衛福部提供的專業的意見認為他可能有涉及疏失 然後可能這樣子要給人家起訴"},{"start":31170.646,"end":31190.837,"text":"這樣子有辦法起訴嗎起訴以後送到司法院有辦法變成呈堂證供嗎有嗎報告委員拖了這麼一段時間覺得非常的不好意思但這個事情經過行政院林立新政委跟司法院的協調才產生出現在示範這個不是司法院協調這個是高檢署"},{"start":31193.959,"end":31209.41,"text":"法務部 衛福部自己提供出來解決行政部門 解決檢查機關要怎麼起訴 怎麼辦案件的困難但是這個沒有經過法院的同意沒有經過司法院的同意"},{"start":31209.97,"end":31223.58,"text":"所以你起訴可能可能你的起訴到司法院以後有沒有辦法到法院那一端有沒有辦法進行真正的訴訟這個起訴的法律要件完不完備可能都是問號"},{"start":31224.961,"end":31252.663,"text":"我相信林明星政委都有經過一些徵詢的方式 政委都是行政部門啊對 都有經過一個徵詢的方式但因為這個方式5月1號開始試辦這不是陳行委員 我們用一兩個月的時間看他能不能解決一些問題但是你要找司法院來商量啊這是你們行政部門自己想出來自己認為的那你們行政部門要踢到司法院司法院再踢回來"},{"start":31253.644,"end":31276.678,"text":"一年了 院長一年了所以我才說這是需要院紀協調的制度面的問題我們是不是5月1號開始試辦讓他有一段時間我們來看看有沒有辦法解決如果沒有辦法解決或者是要更好的方法那我跟委員我們一起 我也承諾我們會再經過林平清政委再去研究看看如何跟司法院用院紀的方式來商討這個問題"},{"start":31277.699,"end":31290.832,"text":"不是已經跟你們提醒8個月了你們說要願即協商也談了8個月了可是我現在講醫改會醫改會其實有一些建議其實你們衛福部也要聽進去你們檢查機關也要聽進去"},{"start":31293.234,"end":31311.683,"text":"他說現在依選會的鑑定的制度方法就是不問不答反正我就幫你鑑定鑑定完以後我就出具書面資料然後呢有些法官在審的時候就說你這個鑑定報告未涵蓋完整的這個問題然後呢法官就會問很多問題"},{"start":31313.544,"end":31334.686,"text":"在這種問問題的時候就擔心說這個鑑定的流程混亂且耗時所以醫改會建議要建立更具體的提問機制避免概括性的假設性的詢問確保鑑定的醫師能準確的回答核心問題所以這個需要要求的是司法院的法官"},{"start":31335.146,"end":31360.766,"text":"需要要求的是我們醫審會所以明確完整的鑑定和提問的機制這沒有兩院合作做不來的第二個要提升法官對醫療鑑定的專業的認知醫界跟司法界台灣最精英的兩大勢力一個是第三類組的第一名又是第一類組的第一名嘛所以有高度的專業落差如果法官跟律師對於醫療專業的知識缺乏理解"},{"start":31363.228,"end":31386.465,"text":"他要仰賴就是鑑定報告啊所以要透過專業的評析案依法的交流提高司法人員在函許難解讀鑑定報告的時候的專業素養確保問題能夠精準聚焦在案件的核心可是這個這個要跟司法院講啊你們要去跟司法院講啊報告委員二月的時候林明新政委確實有招"},{"start":31387.325,"end":31410.132,"text":"市法院 衛福部 法務部跟台高檢來討論這個事情沒有結論所以才有5月1號的這個醫療專業意見的事辦那是不是請求委員我就跟你講你們這個鑑定報告跟刑事訴訟法的規定所有的鑑定報告證據力要自然人簽名 拒絕 要上庭這個都不符合啦"},{"start":31410.532,"end":31436.701,"text":"我現在告訴你從法律的要件來看都不符合那個程序然後醫改會還認為第三個要優化鑑定制度確保報告的公信力過去醫審會的鑑定報告為什麼會被法院提案要修法因為常常被批評問A答B或者是引用可信度極低的文獻甚至缺少完整的論證過程為了提升鑑定的公信力"},{"start":31437.581,"end":31461.469,"text":"醫改會建議現在鑑定至少有兩個出鑑的時候有兩個醫師來出鑑避免單一一個醫師他的鑑定結果就定生死所以有預算的問題喔所以在這裡面衛福部醫事師很多年對這個預算大家都覺得叫醫審會去鑑定啊因為有編列預算啊所以這個預算資源有沒有投入也很重要喔那我們現在講"},{"start":31462.529,"end":31491.789,"text":"大家都覺得說這個問題司法院怎麼會這麼覺得很容易的事情為什麼衛福部做不到為什麼台灣醫生做不到因為台灣就是有困難國外的這個鑑定他有時候這個國土很大嘛東岸的問題叫西岸的人來鑑定那台灣就是這麼小某些特殊手術或是醫療方式少數醫師能執行所以你再怎麼匿名化再怎麼去識別化或者雙盲大家都猜得出來"},{"start":31492.569,"end":31518.53,"text":"那也有人建議說找專職的醫療鑑定委員設定退休的醫師來做專職的醫療鑑定 設立這個制度但是這沒辦法 台灣的醫生 你退休之後來做大家都覺得醫療科技推陳初心 速度相當快你今天這個專科 下面還有次專科所以你要去鑑定的時候 人家會挑戰你說"},{"start":31519.21,"end":31538.946,"text":"你在這個領域發表了幾篇的論文你有多少貢獻你有什麼能力來幫我做鑑定以前也很多的醫師的確被鑑定在鑑定的時候被肉搜被關說甚至被告台灣就是這麼特殊我可以理解這個醫生的壓力所以在這種狀況台灣的醫療環境這麼狹隘那我們第一線的檢察官負擔也很沉重在這種狀況裡面醫法要合作"},{"start":31547.673,"end":31570.968,"text":"雙向要溝通醫醫省會制度也要改善衛福部也要給他支援司法院這些法官的授訓也要在觀念上在溝通制度面都要所以這個東西的確就是需要願即協商願即合作而我們就是需要這樣可是拖了八個月"},{"start":31572.028,"end":31589.486,"text":"那你現在推一個這種一看就不符合現行的刑事訴訟法的規定那你說做做看我們也不反對那要做多久可以運作嗎可以嗎你們可以保證可以運作嗎這個東西看起來只有行政部門自己在講沒有找司法院"},{"start":31592.636,"end":31616.274,"text":"你現在有願意要施行的這個計畫沒有司法院的同意這個會期結束之前我們把這個階段大概有三個月的時間施行的結果跟委員報告我們再來進行需要的改進我想我也是很無奈 人民也只能這樣子謝謝委員支持謝謝林淑芬委員精彩的質詢 謝謝謝謝左院長 衛福部長的備詢 謝謝"},{"start":31621.618,"end":31621.938,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":31649.086,"end":31666.324,"text":"院長好院長上個禮拜其實我們在質詢農業部的時候有特別提到就是我們農民溫往事的那個廢棄物的去化的部分那今天因為有衛福部他主要的他的這些業務"},{"start":31667.465,"end":31693.517,"text":"可能是跟他是更相關的所以在這裡我們針對這個部分像他極端氣候變蟲害的影響的因應農民對於溫暖室的這樣子的設施需求也越來越大然後農業部的預算補助也越編越高可是也因為這樣因為農民的需求還有我們政府的補助所以讓他的那個量體還有"},{"start":31695.058,"end":31714.282,"text":"它整個那個數量其實也越來越多那在這個部分當然也造成我們上一次提過的這個溫網式的這些廢棄物它的處理問題其實已經不斷的產生比如說像南投縣它是以農業為主那南投縣的山坡地面積它佔比高達95%"},{"start":31718.723,"end":31742.073,"text":"所以對於這樣子像我們有很多的一些農模它包含棚模跟地模這些農模其實它可能還可以製成塑膠粒它可以加工再利用如果它有回收的話可是另外還有那些往事的廢棄物它又就是像那種網子的它又重"},{"start":31742.893,"end":31758.275,"text":"又厚然後也不易處理更重要的它如果在土地上面其實它百年都不會分解也不會腐爛所以基本上像這一些農業廢棄物清潔隊是不收的"},{"start":31759.036,"end":31779.55,"text":"那上一次我們也有提到因為農業部負責補助可是他在他的去化上面他好像也是無能為力對我們整個縣內來說所以我們也常常看到因為像現在包括很多建築廢棄物也都是往山裡去偷盜偷埋那現在又有這些農業廢棄物對我們這些好山好水或者"},{"start":31780.29,"end":31809.529,"text":"包括院長之前你也剛去主持過草屯的那個鳥嘴潭人工湖它的那個落成啟用很重要的是因為我們的水質都是由山上直接整個河川這樣流下來那它的水質夠好那水量也夠大所以我們可以維繫這樣的一個人工湖可是當我們不斷的破壞環境的時候或者我們沒有一個好的這些政策的處理方式的時候其實它的污染"},{"start":31810.089,"end":31837.646,"text":"或者它未來造成河川的這些可能不管是汙染也好土石裂也好或者甚至對於土地的汙染其實也都會非常嚴重因為它就是沒有辦法分解所以我們之前其實南投縣曾經在幾次重大的天災也發生過這樣的事情你只要像有一些樹木倒塌或者像這些廢棄物有人蓄意去傾倒或者丟棄的這些廢棄物"},{"start":31839.207,"end":31867.852,"text":"就造成很多的天然災害更加的嚴峻危險所以就這個部分我們是不是有什麼樣的方式那個為環境部可以來做一個有效的處理方式因為我們現在看到農民他最大的困難點就是當你要收的時候還不是清潔隊你要收的時候他必須要乾淨然後有時候還要破碎"},{"start":31868.812,"end":31885.123,"text":"然後第二個他是進入像我剛剛提到的南投縣有95%都是山坡地如果要開車去收是因為要有事業廢棄物的那個公司來收可是要進這些偏遠地區或山區他的車輛要有證的不然你隨便去載還會被罰"},{"start":31890.106,"end":31917.7,"text":"這是第二個那第三個他像一般的車輛會法以外他對這些農民來說他的運費跟處理費就會非常的高因為他比較遠然後你的量體如果一些然後他還要請廢棄物的那個還要付處理費還有運費那很多農民他就乾脆就隨便就隨便丟隨便處置或隨便買了這個對我們整個環境造成的影響是非常大的"},{"start":31918.32,"end":31943.247,"text":"所以像這些會產生這樣子農業廢棄物它很重要的原因第一個當然就是年限到了第二個就是發生颱風或天災的時候它被摧毀了它既然這樣 那農民可見它有三大損失第一個損失就是如果有這麼大的颱風可以把農業設施摧毀它就是它的農產品大概也損失慘重"},{"start":31944.227,"end":31967.473,"text":"第二個這些設施損壞他可能包括這些設施的投資也是損失慘重第三個如果要處理這些費我們損失的農產品還有像這樣子的設施的話他還要負擔這些運費跟處理費對農民來說其實是很困難所以就這個方向"},{"start":31968.493,"end":31975.88,"text":"已經發生很久了而且這個歷年好像也都有在討論我們環境部有沒有什麼樣具體的做法"},{"start":31976.513,"end":31998.159,"text":"好 報告委員 這個農廢的部分這現在是還是農業部在主政那我也坦承說其實因為我們的分類裡面這種在每一個這個業務主管機關來說的話他可能當成廢棄物在處理他沒有辦法到我們的這個環境部的廢棄物的處理的程序那未來呢我們這個希望下個會期能夠送我們的資源循環推動法"},{"start":31998.539,"end":32025.927,"text":"未來會有我們環境部來統一來主政結果就會更好一點點那對我來說這個不是廢棄物是資源啦所以未來我們會把它當成資源來看待會更好那現在我會來跟農業部來協商南投的問題因為每個地方有每個地方的問題像我知道農業部在中部台中有一個可以去化的地方但是我必須說我的了解量能還是不大夠所以委員說的的確是一個問題那我們希望有短中長期來解決這個問題"},{"start":32027.979,"end":32054.813,"text":"所以下個會期我們環境部就會介入一起跟農業部一起去處理嘛我們希望說那個法可以訂好把它分工更明確之後在沒有法之前因為它已經存在了院長也在這裡我們相關的環境部也在這裡今天還沒有法的時候它還是可以處理啊它只是用什麼樣方式去處理而已在這裡也特別要提出呼籲也請院長可以去考量"},{"start":32055.273,"end":32084.488,"text":"就是在我們因為過去我們可以看到我們的資源回收做得非常好那時候你不管是紙啊還有什麼寶特瓶啊玻璃瓶啊或者所有相關只要可以回收的大家的分類都做得很好而且也很多人在幫忙回收包括很多弱勢的一些民眾其實他也可以以此為生那時候很重要的一個政策是因為我們那時候的環保署他是有補助的"},{"start":32085.268,"end":32106.002,"text":"所以就讓很多人願意去好好的把它分類然後好好的去甚至做資源回收所以我在想如果像這個部分我們是不是可以來專案補助剛剛我提到農民其實他會有很多的困難包括未來即使你們已經找到處理的方式可是對農民的負擔來說他會發生這樣子的廢棄物的產生的時候其實他已經有非常大的損失了"},{"start":32111.866,"end":32138.274,"text":"如果他還要負擔這些其實是非常沉重的負擔這個部分是不是我們也可以考慮院長是不是可以考慮我們用專案補助的方式一方面可以解決農民的困難第二還可以讓我們的環境永續去好好的經營因為他至少你就不會讓他有這樣子的一個可能性會降到比較低因為他可以好好的處理那這個部分可不可以朝這樣來執行"},{"start":32140.014,"end":32146.076,"text":"報告委員這個其實我們會跟積極來跟那個南投縣的農業局跟環保局來討論這個事情我們現在講的不是我知道我知道我剛剛提到的是專案補助的部分這個不是跟縣政府跟縣政府補助你們是怎麼去化怎麼找到地點我現在說的是當農民承受這麼大的損失的時候他還是必須要支出這些部分是不是可以專案補助就像我們過去在做資源回收的時候因為你只要花一點點的這些"},{"start":32169.702,"end":32191.11,"text":"呃我們政府的預算可是他可以擁保我們整體環境台灣就這麼小當你上面有污染的時候我們的河川我們所有的土地包括我們下游需要的這些水質其實都會受到影響那這個部分對整體的政策來說如果是正向的院長可不可以考慮院請院長回答好不好"},{"start":32191.775,"end":32217.685,"text":"我們會請農業部跟環境部跟委員剛剛的建議我們納進來討論來考慮一下來討論因為我們提到的就是說因為環境部如果你因為你在前端你做這樣的補助當然對農民是好的可是你在後端當他有這麼大的損失的時候你又沒有辦法有收成的時候這個部分我們也請環境部跟那個就是我們環境部跟那個農業部其實你們處理的是"},{"start":32219.125,"end":32239.42,"text":"是已經發生的啦這個部分可能還是要院長來做一個裁決如果像這樣我們去疼惜我們的農民讓他受到當然不是每一次都要啊你一定是有比較大的這樣子的損害的時候你才需要去啟動這樣子的一個補助的方案所以這個部分請院長可以慎重考量好不好"},{"start":32240.38,"end":32254.356,"text":"謝謝委員可不可以因為你在處理的時候你必須要有一些費用跟我們在講資源回收這樣的概念因為他也不會耗費很多的資源這個部分可不可以去考量"},{"start":32254.997,"end":32264.643,"text":"院長 請院長回答我們可以來研議我覺得這個是一個珍惜剛剛部長講的對他來講這個是資源我們在台中豐原已經有一些小鎮也是農業的已經有零廢棄的小鎮我們要鼓勵他出來了我們是鼓勵農民零廢棄來做這個事而不是說他製造廢棄物之後他們現在是怎麼做可以零廢棄"},{"start":32279.751,"end":32299.399,"text":"有 他們基本上一個大的社區在台中豐原的公老坪那個其實是非常成功的那我們也希望能夠補助他可以處理多少量體沒有 他自己會去把這個資源把它做好詳細的分類什麼樣的資源 我說的我們剛剛討論到現在說的是這些文網式的這些農業設施的農費喔您提的是這個嗎"},{"start":32303.98,"end":32319.187,"text":"我現在講的是這個部分我們針對這個部分討論好不好因為你如果沒有解決這個部分你講別的因為你把它扯遠了我們現在講的是這個部分這些網子我們以前看到海洋生物很多"},{"start":32320.507,"end":32334.947,"text":"環境部長也在這裡我們有很多海洋的生物看到他們在受到解救的時候就是被很多的網子塑膠去把它捆住今天我們的河川生態也會造成這樣的影響因為你都是網子這是政府也有補助的"},{"start":32335.888,"end":32364.741,"text":"那你在後端沒有辦法做這樣的承諾嗎你們可以去評估看看他必須要多少的預算當你每年編到兩兆多將近三兆的預算的時候你沒有辦法去考量一點點這樣的預算嗎過去我們在資源回收我剛剛講過去甚至很多人還會認為說欸慈濟的資源回收做得非常好可是慈濟就是因為做得非常好他甚至他們可以做的資源回收的一些生活來源"},{"start":32365.481,"end":32390.228,"text":"都會受到影響那就是因為政府有這樣的政策有這麼多的民眾幫我們做好比你自己要去做會更好這個部分院長可不可以慎重的去評估考量可不可以推動這樣的政策至少在你前端你都還沒有做出這樣相關的處置作為或者像這樣子的一個去化的一個方式的時候可不可以做這樣的考量讓農民也一起來協助這個部分"},{"start":32394.282,"end":32410.928,"text":"剛剛委員報告我會請環境部農業部來做檢討分析讓我來做判斷之後這個事情該由中央來做或是跟地方怎麼樣來做合作我們會有一套方法出來希望這就是對農民的照顧落實到他不要讓他產生這種廢棄物而且廢棄物可以再善加利用"},{"start":32412.016,"end":32429.511,"text":"他如果沒有回收就不可能參加利用這一次因為我很遺憾因為我覺得說這個是非常小的事情今天院長我很希望你面對這個尤其是今天站在農業部跟環境部兩位"},{"start":32430.211,"end":32452.676,"text":"的中間院長如果這個部分對我們的環境永續對農民是有幫助的我們很希望其實是由你來做承諾當然面對困難的時候我們去解決可是如果有什麼樣的問題如果我們可以承擔它是一個政策它不是只有南投會發生它所有的農業設施上面只要有溫暖室都會有這樣的那個問題產生"},{"start":32454.896,"end":32481.843,"text":"請委員容許我們讓他做專業的分析檢討之後我們才能做正確的判斷那我們會往這個方向走所以如果是這樣院長會願意朝這樣如果說他的評估是可行的院長可以去去同意這樣子的一個政策推動嗎當然我們在照顧榮民的各種方面而且到底中央來做或是跟地方怎麼合作還是地方如果地方可以做那我們今天也不用"},{"start":32482.643,"end":32503.721,"text":"跟院長在這裡探討了非常感謝院長在這時候想到地方可是我們更希望地方可以協助的不是只有預算的部分如果我們斤斤計較台灣很難好而且我們的環境也很難好今天我們南投提供了很多的天然資源尤其是水資源我們"},{"start":32504.862,"end":32515.929,"text":"說要給彰化使用的時候大家都沒有話說我們受到很多的限制可是我們更希望中央在很多政策上面可以獨當一面而且挑起對農民照顧的這樣的責任在這裡代表我們很多很多全國的農民拜託院長因為這個新聞從"},{"start":32524.415,"end":32553.322,"text":"南到北到處都有發生這個農業農費的這個問題其實我相信農業部非常清楚他存在很久了如果沒有一個具體的有我們農民有我們中央有我們地方政府大家一起來共同解決他很難把它做好我過去的經驗就是資源回收曾經非常好的時候就是因為有這樣的補貼的政策希望院長可以慎重的考慮為了我們所有的行政的推動可以讓他"},{"start":32555.425,"end":32578.694,"text":"好 謝謝馬文君委員質詢 謝謝卓院長各部會首長的備詢 謝謝接下來我們請邱若驊委員請質詢好 謝謝主席 主席有請行政院卓院長及衛福部邱部長麻煩再請卓院長衛福部長備詢"},{"start":32588.505,"end":32616.338,"text":"院長好 院長辛苦了 部長好院長我們先來看到這張圖院長這張圖是我們桃園復興區的雪屋鬧道路因為山崩導致道路中斷的現場照復興區它屬於偏遠地區雨勢一大或是颱風一來的時候道路中斷是常態目前涉及在當地的大約有需要定期洗腎的病患大約有60人而且還有許多依賴"},{"start":32617.538,"end":32624.375,"text":"依賴長期慢性病處方的居民那如果在需要取得藥物的時候道路又中斷的時候民眾可以怎麼辦請問院長 部長"},{"start":32629.451,"end":32649.485,"text":"道路中斷的時候在我國偏遠地區可能要用空中運送的方式沒錯 就是無人機本席今天要和院長討論無人機的議題那我們再接著看這是近期台北醫學大學新國民醫院與桃園市政府衛生局合作在復興區設立的洗腎中心對地方的醫療資源"},{"start":32651.427,"end":32675.346,"text":"進步的提升確實是一大步那現在居住在山區的病患呢終於能夠就近來接受血液透析治療本席考院長一個問題您知道洗身一次大概需要用上多少生理食鹽水嗎不好意思洗身一次需要用上多少生理食鹽水大概要兩千CC"},{"start":32676.274,"end":32695.688,"text":"洗身一次至少就要用上1500CC部長您說2000CC今天如果到入中段的話連那麼基本的醫療物資都沒有辦法運送基層再怎麼努力也是徒勞所以院長我們看到本期要向您反映的是缺藥的風險它不只存在我們桃園復興區"},{"start":32696.849,"end":32720.911,"text":"那它也可能會發生在我國的偏鄉嘛那尤其在交通中斷還有天災的時候那這種情況下剛剛院長有提到就是無人機來做運送嘛那這也是攸關病患生命安全的大事院長您認為無人機它是否在我國它可以來運用來幫助偏鄉呢在緊急還有特殊的情況下我們也希望發展無人機能夠"},{"start":32721.792,"end":32740.849,"text":"真正最大的用途平常就是在這個救災救難的時候它可以發揮人力所不能到達的地方去那本席在這邊就是請問就是我們部長您的態度呢我想在道路壯斷我們台灣從921以後其實也發生過幾次"},{"start":32741.81,"end":32755.689,"text":"不管是土石流 各個地方 南投 桃園其實那個時候藥物真的都是相當的缺乏有必要的時候 我想吳仁基是應該可以解決問題有必要的時候 因為本席也有和議員所表示"},{"start":32756.73,"end":32781.056,"text":"在進行無人機送藥的試驗那醫院所他們有說他們已經向衛福部反映相關的問題可是目前都卡在制度面還有法規那衛福部籌備偏鄉常態系的無人機送藥模式它需要鬆綁現行藥師法的規定藥物必須由藥師來親自交給民眾當然我們也是尊重藥師他的專業還有他的職責那請問院長部長我們什麼時候可以來檢討這個法規呢並且來做修法的作業"},{"start":32788.709,"end":32812.813,"text":"最近我們舉辦了黑客鬆就是等於是AI資訊的比賽那這個無人機送藥這個計畫是得到第一名所以我們非常重視這樣的一個我猜他的準確度要到哪裡真的是送到哪裡本身要和您討論的是目前就是卡在衛福部我們何時可以來做鬆綁要試跑的問題要親自調劑"},{"start":32816.909,"end":32827.58,"text":"那這個部分有兩個部分可以來討論第一個就是說在緊急的狀況的時候其實是可以有彈性第二個其實配合視訊"},{"start":32829.777,"end":32852.637,"text":"這個法例我們來處理指導那邊的人怎麼用藥這樣也相對的是有調劑那這個部分我想我們必須跟藥界方面來那不只是調劑那還有醫療資源的部分那今天就是因為還卡在食藥署以及衛福部所以我們必須要來重新檢討法規"},{"start":32853.598,"end":32866.81,"text":"我們一邊發展因為現在已經有一個計畫在做了我們示範計畫的當中就要去克服這些法令的限制需要衛福部來做跨部會的整合北西鄉請教部長衛福部什麼時候可以來做協調那這個法規何時可以來做鬆綁"},{"start":32872.979,"end":32891.632,"text":"我們在這個示範計畫裡面其中有一個關鍵當然就是要去溝通這個藥師法裡面的因為無人機送藥它今天不只光靠技術就可以完成那不只藥要送的出去還要送的安全因為藥品它可能需要冷藏它也不能它也要避免日曬我們也要追蹤它的"},{"start":32892.352,"end":32907.728,"text":"他的濕度那這些技術的標準還有醫藥品他的品項的配套品質都我們也必須要納入考量那這部分因為涉及到醫藥專業必須要有衛福部的專業介入啊有沒問題我們就成立一個殺我們現在的計劃就是無人機送藥沙盒計劃那就是一種常識的計劃"},{"start":32915.134,"end":32939.021,"text":"面臨到兩個關鍵問題第一個 航線的問題你也不能去影響到本來的一些航線航線的部分沒問題本席可以和我們交通部應援所來做溝通可是目前就是因為衛福部還沒有鬆綁所以沒有辦法來進行實際後續的我們趕快來溝通好了趕快來溝通那部長您可不可以在三個月內提出完整的事辦報告呢"},{"start":32939.301,"end":32960.684,"text":"好沒問題那法規的修訂還有進度草案的方向跨部會的去做一些溝通還有軍方還有交通部跨部會要做一些溝通如果需要我們會院裡面來協助是喔謝謝院長那部長這邊本席也要求喔那藥品的冷鏈還有運送的品質規範那實際的試辦成果還有成效評估三個月內有沒有辦法提供"},{"start":32962.236,"end":32975.694,"text":"應該可以 初步的報告因為他有一定計畫的期程但是三個月我想應該就要呈現報告那希望 組長請在三個月內提供給本市報告那院長我們接下來看"},{"start":32976.795,"end":33003.892,"text":"就是桃園市政府正式宣布的重大建設在巴德消理公園將設立桃園市立醫院總院採BOT的方式興建投資金額高達90億未來設置499床的急性一般病床還有150床專科與特殊的病床提供24小時的兒科急診還有長照婦幼醫療服務預計2033年底營運他會以區域醫院還有準醫學中心的高標格來做興建"},{"start":33005.633,"end":33034.569,"text":"這是一個非常重要的醫療建設計畫對我們台灣市民是一大福音那本席目前眼前我們擔心的是未來我們是否有足夠的有足夠的和穩定的醫護能力呢醫院醫護能力 現在尤其是護理師的人力的短缺大家都感到非常的急迫那醫師跟護理師我們現在都希望能夠用考用合一的方式讓他能夠在未來"},{"start":33035.709,"end":33054.941,"text":"畢業的學生經過合理的考試能夠儘速進入到職場那上個月十五 上個月十五陳大已經 原本他已經關閉四十多床的的病床 那預計五月 因為醫師離職少他五月又關了三十床 院長你有沒有掌握到呢現在應該畢業生快要出來這個一段時間"},{"start":33056.106,"end":33067.143,"text":"畢業生出來之後是不是可以稍稍的紓解這樣的壓力因為院長您提到畢業生嘛那您知道在我國有多少有護理證照的人我們現在在值"},{"start":33068.174,"end":33097.126,"text":"您床上面大概有19萬人有19萬人沒錯,可是有證照的有30多人那實際的落差是10萬人那部長您也提到就是畢業生新鮮人嘛那心理證照的護理師他實際就業率就只有六成有就是說四成的護理師他們不願意進到醫院不願意進到醫院的職場來工作您認為是為什麼這個我想我們不管是在工作的環境跟待遇還有護理人員真的面臨很大的第一線的照顧的壓力"},{"start":33097.931,"end":33118.404,"text":"這個我想我們長期在醫療上完全的提認也感謝委員的關心新鮮人的離職高峰潮是在什麼時候也通過了十二項的一個策略而且具體在落實跟委員報告一下今年其實是有成效的我們今年的事業比去年的事業其實還是增加了三千多位護理師"},{"start":33119.805,"end":33130.039,"text":"當然朝著我們想要多一點的護理師還要繼續努力您提到增加的3000多位,那有多少位護理師離職呢我們的離職率大概有11到12"},{"start":33137.182,"end":33151.937,"text":"但是我們到七月的時候畢業的畢業生還是會就職所以整體而言是 部長 部長院長光從今年一月到三月離職的人數就高達九百多位喔那其實我們一直面臨到畢業以後就會補回來"},{"start":33153.79,"end":33178.055,"text":"本席剛剛也提到只有六成的就業率那離職的高峰潮也在他們進到醫院後的一個月到三個月之後他們又離開了醫院所以請部長院長要正視這個問題所以我們希望考用合一讓他畢業之後能夠多一點的比例進到職場裡面來那護理師每七年就是一個離職的高峰我們要從他的婚姻家庭來協助他讓他能夠留在職場上"},{"start":33178.635,"end":33192.766,"text":"我們現在有多元化的方式來留任一定會有成效是 那本席再請教部長一個問題那目前小夜班的獎勵制度是400元大夜班是600元好 謝謝邱鶴華委員的質詢謝謝卓院長 衛福部長的背景 謝謝"},{"start":33208.291,"end":33215.957,"text":"報告院會社會福利及衛生環境組織諮詢已詢答完畢本會期自2月25日起對行政院院長施政方針及施政報告進行諮詢已於今天詢答完畢謝謝"},{"start":33237.194,"end":33243.817,"text":"在諮詢結束之前 我們再請卓院長向本院委員及全國民眾發表講話卓院長 鄉務院長 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因為現在已經有一個計畫在做了這個計畫確實已經在做了可是需要衛福部來做跨部會的整合北西鄉請教部長衛福部什麼時候可以來做協調那這個法規何時可以來做鬆綁"},{"start":300.489,"end":319.143,"text":"我們在這個事辦計畫裡面其中有一個關鍵當然就是要去溝通這個藥師法裡面的因為無人機送藥它今天不只光靠技術就可以完成那不只藥要送的出去還要送的安全因為藥品它可能需要冷藏它也要避免日曬我們也要追蹤它的"},{"start":319.844,"end":339.502,"text":"他的濕度那這些技術的標準還有醫藥品他的品項的配套品質都我們也必須要納入考量那這部分因為涉及到醫藥專業必須要有衛福部的專業介介入啊有沒問題我們就成立了殺我們現在的計畫就是無人機殺送藥沙盒計畫計畫那就是一種常識的計畫那他騙騙"},{"start":342.645,"end":366.529,"text":"面臨到兩個關鍵問題第一個 航線的問題你也不能去影響到本來的一些航線航線的部分沒問題本席可以和我們交通部 應援所來做溝通可是目前就是因為衛福部還沒有鬆綁所以沒有辦法來進行實際後續的我們趕快來溝通好了趕快來溝通那部長您可不可以在三個月內提出完整的事辦報告呢"},{"start":366.809,"end":388.192,"text":"好沒問題那法規的修訂還有進度草案的方向跨部會的去做一些溝通還有軍方還有交通部跨部會要做一些溝通如果需要我們會院裡面來協助是喔謝謝院長那部長這邊本席也要求喔那藥品的冷鏈還有運送的品質規範那實際的試辦成果還有成效評估三個月內有沒有辦法提供"},{"start":389.727,"end":403.185,"text":"應該可以 初步的報告初步的報告因為他有一定計畫的期程但是三個月我想應該就要呈現報告那希望 組長請在三個月內提供給本市報告那院長我們接下來看"},{"start":404.306,"end":431,"text":"就是桃園市政府正式宣布的重大建設在巴德消理公園將設立桃園市立醫院總院採BOT的方式興建投資金額高達90億未來設置499床的急性一般病床還有150床專科與特殊的病床提供24小時的兒科急診還有長照婦幼醫療服務預計2033年底營運他會以區域醫院還有準醫學中心的高標格來做興建"},{"start":432.981,"end":433.141,"text":"醫護人力"},{"start":463.221,"end":482.45,"text":"畢業的學生經過合理的考試能夠儘速進入到職場那上個月十五 上個月十五陳大已經 原本他已經關閉四十多床的的病床 那預計五月 因為醫師離職潮他五月又關了三十床 院長你有沒有掌握到呢現在應該畢業生快要出來 這一段時間"},{"start":483.592,"end":492.991,"text":"畢業生出來之後是不是可以稍稍的紓解這樣的壓力因為院長您提到畢業生嘛那您知道在我國有多少有護理證照的人"},{"start":495.683,"end":516.573,"text":"您從上面大概有19萬人有19萬人沒錯可是我有證照的有30多人那實際的落差是10萬人那部長您也提到就是畢業生新鮮人那心理證照的護理師他實際就業率就只有六成有就是說四成的護理師他們不願意進到醫院不願意進到醫院的職場來工作您認為是為什麼這個我想我們"},{"start":517.903,"end":545.897,"text":"不管是在工作的環境跟待遇還有護理人員真的面臨很大的第一線的照顧的壓力這個我想我們長期在醫療上完全的體認也感謝委員的關心部長讓您知道新鮮人的離職高峰潮是在什麼時候嗎也通過了12項的一個策略而且具體在落實跟委員報告一下今年其實是有成效的我們今年的事業比去年的事業其實還是增加了3000多位護理師"},{"start":547.317,"end":557.54,"text":"當然朝著我們想要多一點的護理師還要繼續努力您提到增加了3000多位 那有多少位護理師離職呢我們的離職率大概有11到12"},{"start":564.691,"end":579.446,"text":"但是我們到七月的時候畢業的畢業生還是會就職所以整體而言是 部長 部長院長光從今年一月到三月離職的人數就高達九百多位喔那其實我們一直面臨到畢業以後就會補回來"},{"start":581.301,"end":605.584,"text":"本席剛剛也提到只有六成的就業率那離職的高峰潮也在他們進到醫院後的一個月到三個月之後他們又離開了醫院所以請部長 院長要正視這個問題所以我們希望考用合一讓他畢業之後能夠多一點的比例進到職場裡面來那護理師每七年這是一個離職的高峰我們要從他的婚姻家庭來協助他讓他能夠留在職場上"},{"start":606.924,"end":620.507,"text":"我們現在有多元化的方式來留任一定會有成效是 那本席再請教 請教部長一個問題喔那目前小夜班的獎勵制度是四百元大夜班是六百元 這個是好 謝謝邱鶴華委員的質詢謝謝卓院長 衛福部長的對詢 謝謝"},{"start":635.782,"end":639.229,"text":"報告院會社會福利及衛生 報告院會登記"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":696,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（17時33分）謝謝主席，有請行政院卓院長及衛福部邱部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、衛福部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：邱委員好。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：院長好，院長辛苦了；部長好。院長，我們先來看到這張圖，這張圖是我們桃園復興區的雪霧鬧道路，因為山崩導致道路中斷的現場照，復興區處於偏遠地區，雨勢一大或是颱風一來的時候，道路中斷是常態，目前設籍在當地需要定期洗腎的病患大約有六十人，而且還有許多依賴長期慢性病處方的居民，如果在需要取得藥物，道路又中斷的時候，民眾可以怎麼辦？請問院長、部長？"],["卓院長榮泰：道路中斷的時候？"],["邱委員若華：道路中斷的時候，在我國偏遠地區。"],["卓院長榮泰：可能要用空中運送的方式。"],["邱委員若華：沒錯，就是無人機，本席今天要和院長討論無人機的議題。我們再接著看，這是近期臺北醫學大學新國民醫院與桃園市政府衛生局合作在復興區設立的洗腎中心，對地方醫療資源的進步與提升確實是一大步，現在居住在山區的病患，終於能夠就近來接受血液透析治療。本席考院長一個問題，您知道洗腎一次大概需要用上多少生理食鹽水嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：抱歉，這個我不清楚，部長應該知道。"],["邱部長泰源：不好意思……"],["卓院長榮泰：洗腎一次要用多少生理食鹽水？"],["邱委員若華：洗腎一次需要用上多少生理食鹽水？"],["邱部長泰源：大概要2,000cc。"],["邱委員若華：洗腎一次至少就要用1,500cc，部長您說2,000cc。今天如果道路中斷的話，連那麼基本的醫療物資都沒有辦法運送，基層再怎麼努力也是徒勞。","院長，本席要向您反映的是，缺藥風險不只存在於我們桃園復興區，也可能會發生在我國的偏鄉，尤其在交通中斷還有天災的時候，在這種情況下，剛剛院長提到可以用無人機來運送，這也是攸關病患生命安全的大事。院長，您是否認為無人機在我國可以運用於幫助偏鄉呢？在緊急、特殊的情況下。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們很希望發展無人機，平常無人機真正最大的用途就是在救災救難的時候，它可以發揮人力所不能到達的地方去。"],["邱委員若華：本席在這邊請問部長，您的態度呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我想在道路中斷……臺灣從921以後，其實也發生過幾次，不管是土石流等等，各個地方像是南投、桃園，其實那時藥物真的都是相當缺乏……"],["邱委員若華：是，因為本席過去有……"],["邱部長泰源：有必要的時候，我想無人機應該是可以解決問題。"],["邱委員若華：必要的時候。因為本席也有和運研所討論，他們表示有在進行無人機送藥的試驗，運研所也說他們已經向衛福部反映相關的問題，可是目前都卡在制度面還有法規。衛福部籌備偏鄉常態性的無人機送藥模式，需要鬆綁現行藥事法的規定，藥物必須由藥師親自交給民眾，當然我們也尊重藥師的專業還有職責。請問院長、部長，我們什麼時候可以來檢討這個法規，並且來做修法的作業？"],["邱部長泰源：好，最近我們舉辦了一個黑客松的AI資訊比賽，這個無人機送藥的計畫是得到第一名。"],["邱委員若華：是。"],["邱部長泰源：所以我們非常重視這樣的計畫，而且它的準確度是要到哪裡真的就會送到哪裡，怎麼樣去把它……"],["邱委員若華：本席要和您討論的是，目前就是卡在衛福部，何時可以鬆綁？"],["邱部長泰源：藥事法的問題，藥師要親自調劑，這有兩個部分可以討論，第一個就是在緊急狀況時，其實是可以有彈性；第二個是可以配合視訊，這個法律我們來處理……"],["邱委員若華：本席剛剛有提到，比如說像洗腎……"],["邱部長泰源：藥師要指導那邊的人怎麼用藥，這樣也相對是在調劑，這個部分我們必須跟藥師界來討論……"],["邱委員若華：不只是調劑，還有醫療資源的部分呢？今天就是因為還卡在食藥署以及衛福部，所以我們必須要重新檢討法規。"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個沒有問題，我們一邊發展……因為現在已經有一個計畫在做了，試辦計畫當中需要克服相關法令限制。"],["邱委員若華：這個計畫確實已經在做了，可是需要衛福部來做跨部會的整合。"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題。"],["邱委員若華：本席想請教部長，衛福部什麼時候可以來做協調？這個法規何時可以鬆綁？"],["邱部長泰源：在這個試辦計畫裡面，其中有一個關鍵，當然就是要去溝通藥事法裡面的限制。"],["邱委員若華：因為今天無人機送藥不只光靠技術就可以完成，藥不只要送的出去還要送的安全，藥品可能需要冷藏，也要避免日曬，我們也要追蹤它的溼度，這些技術的標準還有醫藥品的品項配套、品質都也都必須要納入考量，這部分因為涉及到醫藥專業，必須要有衛福部的專業介入。"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題，我們現在的計畫就是無人機送藥沙盒計畫，就是一種嘗試的計畫，但也面臨到兩個關鍵問題，第一個是航線的問題，它不能影響本來的一些航線。第二個就是藥事法的問題。"],["邱委員若華：航線的部分沒問題，本席可以和交通部運研所來做溝通，可是目前就是因為衛福部還沒有鬆綁，所以沒有辦法實際進行後續的部分。"],["邱部長泰源：我們趕快來溝通好了。"],["邱委員若華：趕快來溝通，那部長您可不可以在三個月內提出完整的試辦報告呢？"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["邱委員若華：包括法規的修訂還有進度草案……"],["卓院長榮泰：部長可能還要做一些跨部會的溝通，跟軍方還有交通部做跨部會的討論，如果有需要，我們會從院裡面來協助。"],["邱委員若華：是，謝謝院長。部長，本席也要求藥品冷鏈還有運送品質規範以及實際試辦成果的成效評估，三個月內有沒有辦法提供？"],["邱部長泰源：好，初步的報告應該可以。"],["邱委員若華：初步的報告？"],["邱部長泰源：這應該有一定的計畫與期程，但我想三個月可以呈現在報告上。"],["邱委員若華：部長，請在三個月內提供報告給本席。"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題。"],["邱委員若華：院長，我們接下來看。桃園市政府在今年2月12日正式宣布了一項重大建設，也就是在八德霄裡公園將設立桃園市立醫院總院，採BOT方式興建，投資金額高達90億。未來將設置499床急性與一般病床，還有150床的專科與特殊病床，並提供24小時的兒科急診及長照婦幼醫療服務，預計2033年底營運，會以區域醫院及準醫學中心的高標格來興建。院長，這是一項非常重要的醫療建設計畫，對我們桃園市民來說是一大福音。我們現在擔心的是：未來是否有足夠並穩定的醫護人力呢？我說的是醫院，請部長說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：醫護人力？"],["邱委員若華：對，醫護人力。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在、尤其是護理師人力短缺，對此，大家都感到非常急迫。對於醫師跟護理師，我們現在希望能以考用合一的方式，使未來畢業的學生在經過合理考試後，能儘速進入職場。"],["邱委員若華：上個月15日，成大醫院已經關閉了四十多床的病床，預計5月……因為醫師離職潮之故，所以5月又要再關掉30床。院長，您有沒有掌握到呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在畢業生快出來了，經過這一段時間，在畢業生出來之後，是不是可以稍稍紓解這樣的壓力？請衛福部趕快規劃。"],["邱委員若華：院長提到畢業生，您知道在我國有多少有護理證照的人？"],["卓院長榮泰：臨床上大概有十九萬人左右。"],["邱委員若華：是有十九萬人沒錯，可是有證照的有三十多萬人，實際落差是十萬人。部長，您提到畢業生和新鮮人，但新領證照的護理師實際就業率只有六成，也就是說有四成的護理師不願意進到醫院職場來工作，您認為是為什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：我想不管是在工作環境跟待遇，護理人員真的面臨很大的、第一線的照顧壓力，我們長期在醫療體系上完全體認到這點，也感謝委員的關心……"],["邱委員若華：部長，您知道新鮮人的離職高峰潮是在什麼時候？"],["邱部長泰源：行政院也通過了十二項策略，也在具體落實中。跟委員報告一下，今年其實是有成效的，今年4月跟去年4月比，其實還增加了三千多位護理師，當然，就我們想要多一點護理師的方向來說，還要繼續努力。這三千多位……"],["邱委員若華：您提到增加了三千多位，請問有多少位護理師離職呢？"],["邱部長泰源：離職率大概是11%到12%，但是到7月時，畢業的畢業生還是會就職，所以整體而言……"],["邱委員若華：部長、院長，光是今年1月到3月，離職人數就高達九百多位！"],["邱部長泰源：其實在畢業生畢業後就會補回來。"],["邱委員若華：本席剛剛也提到，只有六成的就業率，而離職的高峰潮則在他們進到醫院後的一到三個月內，他們又離開了醫院，所以請部長、院長要正視這個問題！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們希望考用合一，讓其在畢業之後能有多一點的比例進到職場裡。護理師每七年就有一個離職高峰，因此，我們要從婚姻、家庭來協助，使其能留在職場上。"],["邱委員若華：OK，謝謝院長。"],["邱部長泰源：我們現在有多元化的方式來留任，一定會有成效。"],["邱委員若華：本席再請教部長一個問題，目前小夜班的獎勵制度是400元，大夜班是600元，這已經到頂了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：這已經發下去了。"],["邱委員若華：已經發下去了？"],["邱部長泰源：夜班已經發下去了，而且追溯到1月1日。"],["邱委員若華：OK，謝謝部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱若華委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、衛福部部長備詢。","報告院會，登記第十六位蘇巧慧委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1144201_00004"}}},{"id":"161070","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161070","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/db1f27f75049202662942f2552af2f455a34676b6303881097e39277836b040feedc1de391cb15195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"17:17:40 - 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麻煩請院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":19.53,"end":36.751,"text":"院長好院長上個禮拜其實我們在質詢農業部的時候有特別提到就是我們農民溫往事的那個廢棄物的去化的部分那今天因為有衛福部他主要的他的這些業務"},{"start":37.913,"end":56.975,"text":"可能是跟他是更相關的所以在這裡我們針對這個部分像他極端氣候變蟲害的影響的因應 農民對於溫暖室的這樣子的設施需求也越來越大然後農業部的預算補助也越編越高可是"},{"start":57.695,"end":84.443,"text":"也因為這樣因為農民的需求還有我們政府的補助所以讓它的那個量體還有它整個那個數量其實也越來越多那在這個部分當然也造成我們上一次提過的這個溫網式的這些廢棄物它的處理問題其實已經不斷的產生比如說像南投縣它是以農業為主那南投縣的山坡地面積"},{"start":86.104,"end":102.297,"text":"它占比高達95%所以對於這樣子像我們有很多的一些濃膜它包含棚膜跟地膜這些濃膜其實它可能還可以製成塑膠粒它可以"},{"start":103.098,"end":128.719,"text":"加工再利用如果他有回收的話可是另外還有那些往事的廢棄物他又就是像那種網子的他又重又厚然後也不易處理更重要的他如果在土地上面其實他百年都不會分解也不會腐爛所以基本上像這一些農業廢棄物清潔隊是不收的"},{"start":129.48,"end":149.994,"text":"那上一次我們也有提到因為農業部負責補助可是他在他的去化上面他好像也是無能為力對我們整個縣內來說所以我們也常常看到因為像現在包括很多建築廢棄物也都是往山裡去偷盜偷埋那現在又有這些農業廢棄物對我們這些好山好水或者"},{"start":150.734,"end":179.949,"text":"包括院長之前你也剛去主持過草屯的那個鳥嘴潭人工湖它的那個落成啟用很重要的是因為我們的水質都是由山上直接整個河川這樣流下來那它的水質夠好那水量也夠大所以我們可以維繫這樣的一個人工湖可是當我們不斷的破壞環境的時候或者我們沒有一個好的這些政策的處理方式的時候其實它的污染"},{"start":180.529,"end":208.11,"text":"或者它未來造成河川的這些可能不管是污染也好土石裂補也好或者甚至對於土地的污染其實也都會非常嚴重因為它就是沒有辦法分解所以我們之前其實南投縣曾經在幾次重大的天災也發生過這樣的事情你只要像有一些樹木倒塌或者像這些廢棄物有人蓄意去傾倒或者丟棄的這些廢棄物"},{"start":209.651,"end":238.314,"text":"就造成很多的天然災害更加的嚴峻危險所以就這個部分我們是不是有什麼樣的方式那個為環境部可以來做一個有效的處理方式因為我們現在看到農民他最大的困難點就是當你要收的時候還不是清潔隊你要收的時候他必須要乾淨然後有時候還要破碎"},{"start":239.555,"end":255.507,"text":"第二個他是進入像我剛剛提到的南投縣有95%都是山坡地如果要開車去收是因為要有事業廢棄物的那個公司來收可是要進這些偏遠地區或山區他的車輛要有證的不然你隨便去載還會被罰"},{"start":260.53,"end":288.146,"text":"這是第二個那第三個他像一般的車輛會法以外他對這些農民來說他的運費跟處理費就會非常的高因為他比較遠然後你的量體如果一些然後他還要請廢棄物的那個還要付處理費還有運費那很多農民他就乾脆就隨便丟隨便處置或隨便買了這個對我們整個環境造成的影響是非常大的"},{"start":288.746,"end":309.958,"text":"所以像這些會產生這樣子農業廢棄物它很重要的原因第一個當然就是年限到了第二個就是發生颱風或天災的時候它被摧毀了那既然這樣 那農民可見他有三大損失第一個損失就是如果有這麼大的颱風可以把農業設施摧毀他就是他的農產品大概也損失慘重"},{"start":314.66,"end":332.773,"text":"第二個這些設施損壞他可能包括這些設施的投資也是損失慘重第三個如果要處理這些費我們損失的農產品還有像這樣子的設施的話他還要負擔這些運費跟處理費對農民來說其實是很困難所以就這個方向"},{"start":338.917,"end":346.34,"text":"已經發生很久了而且這個歷年好像也都有在討論我們環境部有沒有什麼樣具體的做法"},{"start":346.957,"end":368.602,"text":"好 報告委員 這個農廢的部分這現在是還是農業部在主政那我也坦承說其實因為我們的分類裡面這種在每一個這個業務主管機關來說的話他可能當成廢棄物在處理他沒有辦法到我們的這個環境部的廢棄物的處理的程序那未來呢我們這個希望下個會期能夠送我們的志願循環推動法"},{"start":368.982,"end":396.371,"text":"未來會有我們環境部來統一來主政結果就會更好一點點那對我來說這個不是廢棄物是資源啦所以未來我們會把它當成資源來看待會更好那現在呢我會來跟那個農業部來協商南投的問題因為每個地方有每個地方的問題像我知道農業部在中部台中有一個可以去化的一個地方但是我必須說我的了解量能還是不大夠所以委員說的的確是一個問題那我們希望有短中長期來解決這個問題"},{"start":398.406,"end":425.871,"text":"所以下個會期我們環境部就會介入一起跟農業部一起去處理嘛我們希望說那個法可以訂好把它分工更明確在沒有法之前因為它已經存在了院長也在這裡我們相關的環境部也在這裡今天還沒有法的時候它還是可以處理啊它只是用什麼樣方式去處理而已在這裡也特別要提出呼籲也請院長可以去考量就是"},{"start":426.331,"end":454.932,"text":"在我們因為過去我們可以看到我們的資源回收做得非常好那時候你不管是紙啊還有什麼寶特瓶啊玻璃瓶啊或者所有相關只要可以回收的大家的分類都做得很好而且也很多人在幫忙回收包括很多弱勢的一些民眾其實他也可以以此為生那時候很重要的一個政策是因為我們那時候的環保署他是有補助的"},{"start":455.692,"end":476.609,"text":"所以就讓很多人願意去好好的把它分類然後好好的去甚至做資源回收所以我在想如果像這個部分我們是不是可以來專案補助剛剛我提到農民其實他會有很多的困難包括未來即使你們已經找到處理的方式可是對農民的負擔來說他會發生這樣子的廢棄物的產生的時候其實他已經有非常大的損失了"},{"start":482.293,"end":508.818,"text":"如果他還要負擔這些其實是非常沉重的負擔這個部分是不是我們也可以考慮院長是不是可以考慮我們用專案補助的方式一方面可以解決農民的困難第二還可以讓我們的環境永續去好好的經營因為他至少你就不會讓他有這樣子的一個可能性會降到比較低因為他可以好好的處理那這個部分可不可以朝這樣來執行"},{"start":510.558,"end":516.522,"text":"報告委員 這個其實我們會積極來跟南投縣的農業局跟環保局來討論這個事情我們現在講的不是我知道 我知道我剛剛提到的是專案補助的部分這個不是跟縣政府 跟縣政府補助你們是怎麼去化 怎麼找到地點我現在說的是當農民承受這麼大的損失的時候他還是必須要支出這些部分是不是可以專案補助就像我們過去在做資源回收的時候因為你只要花一點點的這些"},{"start":540.138,"end":561.557,"text":"我們政府的預算可是它可以擁保我們整體環境台灣就這麼小當你上面有污染的時候我們的河川我們所有的土地包括我們下游需要的這些水質其實都會受到影響那這個部分對整體的政策來說如果是正向的院長可不可以考慮請院長回答好不好"},{"start":562.379,"end":588.991,"text":"我們會請農業部跟環境部剛剛委員剛剛的建議我們拿進來討論來考慮一下來討論因為我們提到的就是說因為環境部如果你因為你在前端你做這樣的補助當然對農民是好的可是你在後端當他有這麼大的損失的時候你又沒有辦法有收成的時候這個部分我們也請環境部跟那個就是我們環境部跟那個農業部其實你們處理的是"},{"start":589.571,"end":609.841,"text":"是已經發生的啦這個部分可能還是要院長來做一個裁決如果像這樣我們去疼惜我們的農民讓他受到當然不是每一次都要啊你一定是有比較大的這樣子的損害的時候你才需要去啟動這樣子的一個補助的方案所以這個部分請院長可以慎重考量好不好"},{"start":610.661,"end":611.802,"text":"環境部跟農業部"},{"start":628.131,"end":635.058,"text":"我們可以來研議我們在台中豐原已經有一些小鎮也是農業的已經有零廢棄的小鎮我們要鼓勵他出來了我們是鼓勵農民零廢棄來做這個事而不是說他製造廢棄物之後他們現在是怎麼做可以零廢棄"},{"start":650.194,"end":664.798,"text":"有 他們基本上一個大的社區在台中豐原的公老坪那個其實是非常成功的那我們也希望能夠補助他可以處理多少量體沒有 他自己會去把這個資源把它做好詳細的分類什麼樣的資源 我說的我們剛剛討論到現在說的是這些文廣式的這些農業設施的農費喔您提的是這個嗎"},{"start":673.581,"end":689.63,"text":"各種它的所有的東西我現在講的是這個部分我們針對這個部分討論好不好因為你如果沒有解決這個部分你講別的因為你把它扯遠了我們現在講的是這個部分它這些網子我們以前看到海洋生物很多"},{"start":690.951,"end":705.387,"text":"環境部長也在這裡我們有很多海洋的生物看到他們在受到解救的時候就是被很多的網子塑膠去把它捆住今天我們的河川生態也會造成這樣的影響因為你都是網子這是政府也有補助的"},{"start":706.328,"end":735.168,"text":"那你在後端沒有辦法做這樣的承諾嗎你們可以去評估看看他必須要多少的預算當你每年編到兩兆多將近三兆的預算的時候你沒有辦法去考量一點點這樣的預算嗎過去我們在資源回收我剛剛講過去甚至很多人還會認為說欸慈濟的資源回收做得非常好可是慈濟就是因為做得非常好他甚至他們可以做的資源回收的一些生活來源"},{"start":735.908,"end":760.366,"text":"都會受到影響那就是因為政府有這樣的政策有這麼多的民眾幫我們做好比你自己要去做會更好這個部分院長可不可以慎重的去評估考量可不可以推動這樣的政策至少在你前端你都還沒有做出這樣相關的處置作為或者像這樣子的一個去化的一個方式的時候可不可以做這樣的考量讓農民也一起來協助這個部分"},{"start":764.708,"end":781.371,"text":"剛剛委員報告我會請環境部農業部來做檢討分析讓我來做判斷之後這個事情該由中央來做或是跟地方怎麼樣來做合作我們會有一套方法出來希望這就是對農民的照顧落實到他不要讓他產生這種廢棄物而且廢棄物可以再善加利用"},{"start":782.443,"end":799.958,"text":"他如果沒有回收就不可能參加利用這一次因為我很遺憾因為我覺得說這個是非常小的事情今天院長我很希望你面對這個尤其是今天站在農業部跟環境部兩位"},{"start":800.658,"end":823.125,"text":"的中間院長如果這個部分對我們的環境永續對農民是有幫助的我們很希望其實是由你來做承諾當然面對困難的時候我們去解決可是如果有什麼樣的問題如果我們可以承擔它是一個政策它不是只有南投會發生它所有的農業設施上面只要有溫暖室都會有這樣的那個問題產生"},{"start":825.326,"end":852.301,"text":"請委員容許我們讓他做專業的分析檢討之後我們才能做正確的判斷那我們會往這個方向走所以如果是這樣院長會願意朝這樣如果說他的評估是可行的院長可以去去同意這樣子的一個政策推動嗎當然我們在照顧榮民的各種方面而且到底中央來做或是跟地方怎麼合作所以還是地方如果地方可以做那我們今天也不用"},{"start":853.081,"end":874.126,"text":"跟院長在這裡探討了非常感謝院長在這時候想到地方可是我們更希望地方可以協助的不是只有預算的部分如果我們斤斤計較台灣很難好而且我們的環境也很難好今天我們南投提供了很多的天然資源尤其是水資源我們"},{"start":875.286,"end":890.976,"text":"說要給彰化使用的時候大家都沒有話說我們受到很多的限制可是我們更希望中央在很多政策上面可以獨當一面而且挑起對農民照顧的這樣的責任在這裡代表我們很多很多全國的農民拜託院長因為這個新聞從"},{"start":894.858,"end":923.752,"text":"南到北到處都有發生這個農費的這個問題其實我相信農業部非常清楚他存在很久了如果沒有一個具體的有我們農民有我們中央有我們地方政府大家一起來共同解決他很難把它做好我過去的經驗就是資源回收曾經非常好的時候就是因為有這樣的補貼的政策希望院長可以慎重的考慮為了我們所有的行政的推動可以讓他"},{"start":925.87,"end":932.307,"text":"好 謝謝馬文堅委員質詢謝謝卓院長 各部會首長的備詢 謝謝接下來我們請邱若驊委員請質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":647,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（17時17分）謝謝主席，麻煩請院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：院長好。院長，上個禮拜我們在質詢農業部時，有特別提到農民溫網室廢棄物去化的部分，今天因為有衛福部主要的這些業務，可能跟它是更相關的，所以在這裡我們針對這部分，像極端氣候、病蟲害影響的因應……"],["卓院長榮泰：衛福部？環境部吧！"],["馬委員文君：農民對於溫網室設施的需求也越來越大，農業部的預算補助也越編越高，可是也因為農民的需求，還有我們政府的補助，所以讓其量體還有整個數量也越來越多。在這個部分，當然也造成我們上次提過溫網室這些廢棄物的處理問題，其實已經不斷地產生，比如說，像南投縣以農業為主，南投縣的山坡地面積占比高達95%，對於這樣子，像我們有很多的農膜，包含棚膜跟地膜，這些農模其實還可以製成塑膠粒，可以加工再利用，如果它有回收的話。可是另外還有那些網室的廢棄物，像那種網子的，它又重又厚，也不易處理，更重要的是它如果在土地上面，其實它百年都不會分解，也不會腐爛，所以基本上，像這一些農業廢棄物清潔隊是不收的。上一次我們也有提到，因為農業部負責補助，可是它在其去化上面好像也是無能為力，對整個縣內來說。所以我們也常常看到，現在包括很多建築廢棄物也都是往山裡去偷倒、偷埋，現在又有這些農業廢棄物，對這些好山、好水或者包括院長之前也主持過草屯鳥嘴潭人工湖的落成啟用，很重要的是因為我們的水質都是由山上整個河川直接這樣流下來，它的水質夠好，水量也夠大，所以我們可以維繫這樣的一個人工湖。可是當我們不斷破壞環境的時候或者沒有好的政策處理方式的時候，其實它的污染或者它未來造成河川不管是污染也好、土石流也好或者甚至對於土地的污染，其實也都會非常嚴重，因為它就是沒有辦法分解。之前南投縣曾經在幾次重大的天災也發生過這樣的事情，只要有一些樹木倒塌或者這些廢棄物有人蓄意去傾倒或丟棄廢棄物，就造成很多的天然災害更加嚴峻危險。","就這個部分，我們是不是有什麼樣的方式？環境部可以做一個有效的處理方式。我們現在看到農民最大的困難點就是，當要收的時候，還不是清潔隊，要收的時候它必須要乾淨，有時候還要破碎。第二個，它是進入像我剛剛提到的，南投縣有95%都是山坡地，如果要開車去收，因為要由事業廢棄物的公司來收，可是要進這些偏遠地區或山區，它的車輛是要有證的，不然隨便去載還會被罰，這是第二個。第三個，除了一般的車輛會罰以外，對這些農民來說，它的運費跟處理費就會非常高，因為比較遠，如果量體是一些，請廢棄物的公司還要付處理費及運費，所以很多農民就乾脆隨便丟、隨便處置或隨便埋，這個對整個環境造成的影響是非常大的。","會產生這樣的農業廢棄物的很重要原因是，第一個，當然就是年限到了。第二個，發生颱風或天災的時候，它被吹壞了，可見農民有三大損失，第一個損失是，如果有這麼大的颱風可以把農業設施吹壞，那他的農產品大概也損失慘重；第二個，這些設施損壞，可能包括設施的投資也是損失慘重；第三個，如果要處理這些損失的農產品及像這樣子的設施的話，他還要負擔這些運費跟處理費，對農民來說其實是很困難。這個已經發生很久了，而且歷年好像也都有在討論，環境部有沒有什麼樣具體的作法？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，關於農廢的部分，現在還是由農業部主政，我也坦承說，我們的分類裡面，這種對每一個業務主管機關來說，它可能當成廢棄物處理，它沒有辦法到環境部的廢棄物處理程序。我們希望下個會期能夠送出資源循環推動法，未來會由環境部統一主政，結果就會更好一點點。對我來說，這個不是廢棄物，是資源，未來我們把它當成資源來看待會更好。現在我會跟農業部協商南投的問題，因為每個地方有每個地方的問題，我知道像農業部在臺中有一個可以去化的地方，但是我必須說，據我了解其量能還是不大夠。委員說的的確是一個問題，我們希望分短、中、長期來解決這個問題。"],["馬委員文君：所以下個會期衛福部就會……"],["彭部長啓明：環境部。"],["馬委員文君：環境部就會介入，跟農業部一起去處理，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們希望那個法可以訂定好，把它分工更明確之後……"],["馬委員文君：在沒有法之前，因為它已經存在了，院長在這裡，環境部也在這裡，在還沒有法的時候，它還是可以處理，只是用什麼樣的方式去處理而已。在這裡也特別提出呼籲，也請院長可以去考量，因為過去我們可以看到資源回收做得非常好，那時候不管是紙、寶特瓶、玻璃瓶或者所有相關的，只要可以回收的，大家的分類都做得很好，而且有很多人在幫忙回收，包括很多弱勢的一些民眾，其實他也可以以此為生，那時候很重要的一個政策是因為當時的環保署是有補助的，所以就讓很多人願意去好好地把它分類，甚至好好地去做資源回收。所以我在想，像這個部分，我們是不是可以來專案補助？剛剛我提到，其實農民會有很多的困難，包括未來即使你們已經找到處理的方式，可是對農民的負擔來說，當他產生這樣的廢棄物的時候，其實他已經有非常大的損失了，如果他還要負擔這些，對他們來說其實是非常沉重的負擔。針對這個部分，院長是不是可以考慮用專案補助的方式？一方面可以解決農民的困難，一方面還可以讓我們的環境永續，去好好地經營，至少這樣的可能性就會降得比較低，因為它可以好好地處理，這個部分可不可以朝這樣來執行？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們會積極跟南投縣的農業局跟環保局來討論這個事情，這是第一個。"],["馬委員文君：我們現在講的不是……"],["彭部長啓明：我知道。"],["馬委員文君：我剛剛提到的是專案補助的部分，這個不是跟縣政府，跟縣政府補助的是你們怎麼去化、怎麼找到地點，但我現在說的是，當農民承受這麼大的損失的時候，他還是必須要支出這些部分，這部分是不是可以專案補助？就像我們過去在做資源回收的時候，因為你只要花一點點政府的預算，就可以永保我們整體的環境，臺灣就這麼小，當上面有污染的時候，我們的河川、我們所有的土地，包括我們下游需要的這些水質，其實都會受到影響。如果這個部分對整體的政策來說是正向的，院長可不可以考慮？請院長回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會請農業部跟環境部把委員剛剛的建議納進來討論。"],["彭部長啓明：來考慮一下、來討論。"],["馬委員文君：因為我們提到了，如果環境部在前端做這樣的補助，當然對農民是好的，可是你在後端，當他有這麼大的損失的時候，又沒有辦法有收成的時候，這個部分我也請環境部跟農業部來協助，其實你們處理的是已經發生的，這個部分可能還是要院長來做裁決，如果我們可以去疼惜我們的農民，當他受到……當然不是每一次都要，一定是有比較大的損害的時候，你才需要去啟動這樣的補助方案，所以這個部分請院長慎重考量，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：可不可以？因為你在處理的時候，必須要有一些費用，跟我們在講資源回收這樣的概念，因為它也不會耗費很多的資源，這個部分可不可以去考量？請院長回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：環境部和農業部檢討之後會跟委員說明……"],["彭部長啓明：我們可以來研議。"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得這個是一個珍惜……就像剛剛部長講的，對它來講這個是資源，我們要善用資源。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們在臺中豐原已經有一些小鎮，也是農業的，已經有零廢棄的小鎮，我們要鼓勵它出來了，我們是鼓勵農民零廢棄來做這個事，而不是他製造廢棄物之後，我們再來花錢處理。"],["馬委員文君：他們現在是怎麼做到零廢棄？"],["彭部長啓明：有，他們基本上……"],["馬委員文君：怎麼做？"],["彭部長啓明：是一個大的社區，在臺中豐原的公老坪，那個其實是非常成功的案例，我們也希望能夠補助他變成……"],["馬委員文君：他可以處理多少量體？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，他自己會去把資源做好詳細的分類。"],["馬委員文君：什麼樣的資源？我們剛剛討論到現在說的是溫網室的農業設施的農廢，你提的是這個嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：各種，他所有的東西都有回收。"],["馬委員文君：我現在講的是這個部分，我們針對這個部分討論好不好？因為你如果沒有解決這個部分，你講別的，因為你把它扯遠了，我們現在講的是這個部分，這些網子，環境部長也在這裡，我們以前看到很多海洋生物受到解救的時候，就是被很多的網子、塑膠捆住，今天我們的河川生態也會造成這樣的影響，因為都是網子，這是政府也有補助的，你在後端沒有辦法做這樣的承諾嗎？你們可以去評估看看這必須要多少預算，當你每年編到二兆多、將近三兆預算的時候，你沒有辦法去考量一點點這樣的預算嗎？過去我們在資源回收，我剛剛講了，過去甚至很多人還會認為慈濟的資源回收做得非常好，可是就是因為慈濟做得非常好，甚至他們可以做資源回收的一些生活來源都會受到影響，就是因為政府有這樣的政策有這麼多的民眾幫我們做好，比你自己去做會更好，院長，這個部分可不可以慎重的評估考量？可不可以推動這樣的政策？至少在你前端都還沒有做出相關的處置作為時或者像這樣子去化的方式的時候，可不可以做這樣的考量，讓農民也一起來協助這個部分？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛跟委員報告，我會請環境部、農業部檢討分析，然後我來判斷之後，這個事情該由中央做或是跟地方怎麼樣合作，我們會有一套方法出來，希望這就是落實對農民的照顧，不要讓它產生這種廢棄物，而且廢棄物可以再善加利用。"],["馬委員文君：它如果沒有回收就不可能善加利用。這一次我很遺憾，我覺得這個是非常小的事情，我很希望院長面對這一個問題，尤其你今天站在農業部跟環境部兩位部長的中間，如果對我們的環境永續、對農民是有幫助的，其實我們很希望是由你來承諾。當然，面對困難的時候，我們要去解決，如果有什麼樣的問題、如果我們可以承擔，它是一個政策，不是只有南投會發生，所有的農業設施上面只要有溫網室的都會有這樣的問題產生。"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員容許我們讓它做專業的分析檢討之後，我們才能做正確的判斷。"],["馬委員文君：可以。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會往這個方向走。"],["馬委員文君：所以院長願意朝這樣，如果它的評估是可行的，院長可以同意這樣的政策推動嗎？就是專案補助的部分。"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，我們在照顧農民的各種方面，而且到底中央來做或是跟地方怎麼合作，這個將來會做一個平臺。"],["馬委員文君：如果地方可以做，我們今天也不用跟院長在這裡探討了。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，好的。"],["馬委員文君：非常感謝院長在這時候想到地方，可是我們更希望可以協助地方的不是只有預算的部分，如果我們斤斤計較，臺灣很難好，而且我們的環境也很難好。今天我們南投提供了很多的天然資源，尤其是水資源，我們要給彰化使用的時候大家都沒有話說，我們受到很多的限制，可是我們更希望中央在很多政策上面可以獨當一面，而且負起對農民照顧的責任。我再次代表我們全國很多很多的農民拜託院長，因為這個新聞從南到北到處都有發生，其實我相信農廢的問題農業部非常清楚，它存在很久了，如果沒有一個具體的方式，由我們農民、由中央、由地方政府大家一起來共同解決，很難把它做好。過去的經驗，資源回收曾經非常好的時候，就是因為有這樣補貼的政策，希望院長可以慎重的考慮，為了我們所有行政的推動可以讓它更好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝馬文君委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請邱若華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1144201_00004"}}},{"id":"161069","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161069","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/db1f27f75049202660f4adaaa158b8f75a34676b6303881097e39277836b040feedc1de391cb15195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"17:02:01 - 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院長辛苦了大概是去年的10月1號大概是8個月了我在這裡也是總質詢那詢問你關於這個形式上的糾紛的醫療鑑定的問題"},{"start":32.262,"end":59.988,"text":"那這個就是我再提醒你一下就是刑事訴訟法208條修法以後有關於刑事的醫療糾紛沒有辦法因為醫療醫事鑑定停擺所以所有的刑事訴訟都沒有辦法進行那這個事情啊我想我會在這裡八個月以後繼續質詢你就知道事情沒有解決"},{"start":61.144,"end":82.133,"text":"那在去年的5月1號到現在修法到現在已經剛好整整滿一年了你可以可想而知台灣一年會有多少醫療糾紛需要刑事訴訟而刑事訴訟的前提要建立在醫療糾紛的醫事責任鑑定上面"},{"start":86.095,"end":104.362,"text":"那新的修法規定說所有的鑑定你都必須自然人要拒絕要具名而且要倒庭以言詞說明那對現行的醫事上的鑑定制度造成很大的衝擊那我又提醒你說我們的醫審會他們拒絕在鑑定了"},{"start":109.404,"end":125.265,"text":"所以從去年的大概8月15號以後吧8月15號到現在也將近9個月了我們的醫審會拒絕全台灣拒絕受理任何的醫療糾紛的醫事鑑定"},{"start":127.808,"end":146.088,"text":"所以他們拒絕受理鑑定以後 到現在累積了將近有700件醫療糾紛的案子因為這一次的修法而導致法務部檢查單位都沒有辦法進行刑事訴訟的程序"},{"start":148.43,"end":163.501,"text":"那衛福部也堅持立場這個司法院也堅持立場而八個月以前我拜託你能不能進行願計協調那時候你答應我可是到現在仍然停擺怎麼辦"},{"start":165.322,"end":179.08,"text":"部長為什麼八個月來我們的進展如此之慢沒有再收到新的一個報告非常抱歉部長能不能說明一下我再補充一點部長你可以想一下我覺得這個東西對人民很不公平因為會形成一種壓力"},{"start":181.603,"end":206.038,"text":"他會逼迫所有醫療糾紛的兩兆雙方反正你有沒有辦法訴訟這位已經發生了一位啊你不要搞我啊我們去協調和解好像是實質上在廢除這個醫療責任的這個刑事責任了好像廢除了好像真正的去刑責化了醫療糾紛去刑責化"},{"start":207.591,"end":230.527,"text":"要真的去行這話也可以大家社會來對話修法可是沒有修法逼迫很多人被迫要去協調被迫要去和解拖了一年眼看著訴訟無望只好覺得身心俱疲沒有辦法再去為自己討公道只好被迫和解又少數幾個案子是這樣子"},{"start":232.008,"end":253.136,"text":"但絕大多數都還是繼續在要爭一口氣要還給家屬或是病人公道但是這個到底是司法院繼續堅持己見衛福部繼續堅持己見然後兩照雙方拖著犧牲的都是病人的權益"},{"start":255.033,"end":279.851,"text":"報告委員其實我們非常重視這個問題也一直在溝通這絕對需要願既協調的喔所以本部以高等檢察署已經研議短期間解決方案第一個檢察機關...不然你看你都要再看過代表你對這件事說不要緊你都要看過這件事我不知道問過幾百遍"},{"start":282.993,"end":290.516,"text":"有鑑定的需要可以洽詢相關的協會或公會來提供醫療專業意見你在這裡給我這樣子敘以為疑請問你剛剛講的可以洽詢請問有真正去洽詢有進行訴訟的有幾件你回答得出來嗎"},{"start":310.285,"end":335.464,"text":"如果你回答不出來 不要在這裡對立委虛疑委疑你在這裡是要對人民負責啊你犧牲了每一個告訴人的 當事人的這個訴訟的權益耶所以在這種狀況裡面 我們當初知道司法院一意孤行的修法導致行政機關下的法務部 衛福部 三方僵持不下犧牲了告訴人的權益耶"},{"start":336.084,"end":363.487,"text":"那我現在問你全台到現在684件的依舊有312件送醫省會被推薦他不是先擱置就強迫兩兆雙方你不要搞了強迫他犧牲自己的權利放棄自己的權利乾脆你們被迫他是被迫去和解但是他總的來講他不能追他的權利被你們冰凍起來才被迫"},{"start":365.35,"end":375.373,"text":"現在想一個辦法要改革 保庭你不知道你裡面有辦法嗎你現在不知道你裡面跟高檢署想了一個方法嗎你不知道喔你不知道 你知不知道我們5月1號開始要辦理一個醫療專業意見的示範計畫這個可以解決大概"},{"start":385.383,"end":403.598,"text":"9層可以解決9層我擔心的是你連1層都沒有辦法解決你解決了9層的是行政程序的困擾但你沒有辦法解決的是司法程序的困擾你現在以醫療專業的意見給檢察機關作為刑事偵辦的參考"},{"start":414.057,"end":432.032,"text":"連可行性可不可以都不知道所以你們5月1號開始要試辦一個照原來的鑑定的模式但你們要說醫審會的鑑定報告不是鑑定報告了不去鑑定報告的司法的準要件了你們要把它變成專業的意見僅供參考"},{"start":434.895,"end":445.429,"text":"僅供檢查機關法務部參考那共識就是說他是詢問你們衛福部的專業的醫療的專業意見作為偵查階段的參考可是"},{"start":452.162,"end":477.301,"text":"他不是醫療鑑定然後沒有具名不需要拒絕也不需要出庭去結問可是新的刑事訴訟法就不允許這樣子的規定所以你解決了你們檢查機關可能會說依據醫審會衛福部提供的專業的意見認為他可能有涉及疏失然後可能這樣子要給人家起訴"},{"start":479.022,"end":499.216,"text":"這樣子有辦法起訴嗎起訴以後送到司法院有辦法變成呈堂證供嗎有嗎報告委員拖了這麼一段時間覺得非常的不好意思但這個事情經過行政院林立新政委跟司法院的協調才產生出現在示範這個不是司法院協調這個是高檢署"},{"start":502.338,"end":517.771,"text":"法務部 衛福部自己提供出來解決行政部門 解決檢查機關要怎麼起訴 怎麼辦案件的困難但是這個沒有經過法院的同意沒有經過司法院的同意"},{"start":518.351,"end":531.959,"text":"所以你起訴可能可能你的起訴到司法院以後有沒有辦法到法院那一端有沒有辦法進行真正的訴訟這個起訴的法律要件完不完備可能都是問號"},{"start":533.26,"end":561.042,"text":"我相信林明星政委都有經過一些徵詢的方式 政委都是行政部門啊對 都有經過一個徵詢的方式但因為這個方式5月1號開始試辦是不是陳行委員我們用一兩個月的時間看他能不能解決一些問題但是你要找司法院來商量啊這是你們行政部門自己想出來自己認為的那你們行政部門要踢到司法院司法院再踢回來"},{"start":562.023,"end":578.892,"text":"一年了 院長一年了所以我才說這是需要院紀協調的制度面的問題我們是不是5月1號開始試辦讓他有一段時間我們來看看有沒有辦法解決如果沒有辦法解決或者是要更好的方法那我跟委員我們一起 我也承諾我們會再經過"},{"start":580.412,"end":598.727,"text":"這個林平清政委再去研究看看如何跟司法院用院紀的方式來商討這個問題不是 已經跟你們提醒八個月了你們說要院紀協商也談了八個月了可是我現在講一改會一改會其實有一個 有一些建議其實你們衛福部也要聽進去"},{"start":599.728,"end":620.065,"text":"你們檢查機關也要聽進去他說現在醫省會的鑑定的制度方法就是不問不答反正我就幫你鑑定鑑定完以後我就出具書面資料然後呢有些法官在審的時候就說你這個鑑定報告未涵蓋完整的這個問題然後呢法官就會問很多問題"},{"start":621.926,"end":643.062,"text":"在這種問問題的時候就擔心說這個鑑定的流程混亂且耗時所以醫改會建議要建立更具體的提問機制避免概括性的假設性的詢問確保鑑定的醫師能準確的回答核心問題所以這個需要要求的是司法院的法官"},{"start":643.522,"end":665.027,"text":"需要要求的是我們醫審會所以明確完整的鑑定和提問的機制這沒有兩院合作做不來的第二個要提升法官對醫療鑑定的專業的認知醫界跟司法界台灣最精英的兩大勢力一個是第三類組的第一名又是第一類組的第一名嘛"},{"start":665.487,"end":691.264,"text":"所以有高度的專業落差如果法官跟律師對於醫療專業的知識缺乏理解他要仰賴就是鑑定報告啊所以要透過專業的評析案依法的交流提高司法人員在函許難解讀鑑定報告的時候的專業素養確保問題能夠精準聚焦在案件的核心可是這個這個要跟司法院講啊你們要去跟司法院講啊"},{"start":695.707,"end":718.528,"text":"市法院、衛福部、法務部跟台高檢來討論這個事情沒有結論所以才有5月1號的這個醫療專業意見的事辦那是不是請求委員我就跟你講你們這個鑑定報告跟刑事訴訟法的規定所有的鑑定報告證據力要自然人簽名拒絕要上庭這個都不符合啦"},{"start":718.908,"end":745.076,"text":"我現在告訴你從法律的要件來看都不符合那個程序然後醫改會還認為第三個要優化鑑定制度確保報告的公信力過去醫審會的鑑定報告為什麼會被法院提案要修法因為常常被批評問A答B或者是引用可信度極低的文獻甚至缺少完整的論證過程為了提升鑑定的公信力"},{"start":745.956,"end":769.848,"text":"醫改會建議現在鑑定至少有兩個出鑑的時候有兩個醫師來出鑑避免單一一個醫師他的鑑定結果就定生死所以有預算的問題喔所以在這裡面衛福部醫事師很多年對這個預算大家都覺得叫醫審會去鑑定啊因為有編列預算啊所以這個預算資源有沒有投入也很重要喔那我們現在講"},{"start":770.908,"end":800.168,"text":"大家都覺得說這個問題司法院怎麼會這麼覺得很容易的事情為什麼衛福部做不到為什麼台灣醫生做不到因為台灣就是有困難國外的這個鑑定他有時候這個國土很大嘛東岸的問題叫西岸的人來鑑定那台灣就是這麼小某些特殊手術或是醫療方式少數醫師能執行所以你再怎麼匿名化再怎麼去識別化或者雙盲大家都猜得出來"},{"start":800.948,"end":816.385,"text":"那也有人建議說找專職的這個醫療鑑定委員設定退休的醫師來做專職的醫療鑑定設立這個制度但是這沒辦法台灣的醫生喔你退休之後來做喔大家都覺得醫療科技推陳這個"},{"start":819.108,"end":839.418,"text":"初心速度相當快你今天這個專科下面還有次專科所以你要去鑑定的時候人家會挑戰你說你在這個領域發表了幾篇的論文你有多少貢獻你有什麼能力來幫我做鑑定以前也很多的醫師的確被鑑定在鑑定的時候被肉搜被關說甚至被告"},{"start":840.018,"end":868.962,"text":"台灣就是這麼特殊 我可以理解這個醫生的壓力所以在這種狀況 台灣的醫療環境這麼狹隘那我們第一線的檢察官 負擔也很沉重在這種狀況裡面 依法要合作 雙向要溝通依審會制度也要改善 衛福部也要給他支援司法院這些法官的授訓也要在觀念上在溝通 制度面都要"},{"start":869.602,"end":897.885,"text":"所以這個東西的確就是需要願即協商願即合作而我們就是需要這樣可是拖了八個月那你現在推一個這種一看就不符合現行的刑事訴訟法的規定那你說做做看我們也不反對那要做多久可以運作嗎可以嗎你們可以保證可以運作嗎這個東西看起來只有行政部門自己在講沒有找司法院"},{"start":901.014,"end":926.511,"text":"你現在有願意要施行的這個計畫沒有司法院的同意這個會期結束之前我們把這個階段大概有三個月的時間施行的結果跟委員報告我們再來進行需要的改進我想我也是很無奈 人民也只能這樣子謝謝委員支持謝謝林淑芬委員精彩的質詢 謝謝喔謝謝左院長 衛福部長的備詢 謝謝"},{"start":930.014,"end":930.128,"text":"謝謝大家"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":611,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（17時2分）謝謝院長，卓院長需要喝口水嗎？"],["主席：麻煩卓院長喝口水以後再備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：院長辛苦了，大概是去年的10月1號，大概有8個月了，我在這裡也是總質詢，詢問院長關於刑事糾紛的醫療鑑定問題。我再提醒你一下，就是刑事訴訟法第二百零八條修法以後，有關於刑事的醫療糾紛，因為醫事鑑定停擺，所有的刑事訴訟都沒有辦法進行，針對這個事情，8個月以後我會繼續在這裡質詢，你就知道事情還沒有解決。","去年5月1號到現在，修法到現在已經剛好整整滿1年了，你可想而知，臺灣一年會有多少醫療糾紛需要刑事訴訟，而刑事訴訟的前提要建立在醫療糾紛的醫事鑑定、責任鑑定上。新的修法規定是，所有鑑定都必須有自然人的具結，要具名，而且要到庭以言詞說明，這對現行醫事上的鑑定制度造成很大的衝擊；我又提醒你說，我們的醫審會他們拒絕再鑑定了，所以大概從去年8月15號以後到現在，也將近9個月了，我們的醫審會拒絕受理全臺灣任何醫療糾紛的醫事鑑定。在他們拒絕受理鑑定以後，到現在累積了將近700件醫療糾紛的案子。因為這一次的修法，導致法務部檢察單位都沒有辦法進行刑事訴訟的程序，衛福部也堅持立場，司法院也堅持立場，而8個月以前我拜託你能不能進行院際協調，那時候你答應我，可是到現在仍然停擺，怎麼辦？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長，為什麼8個月來我們的進展如此之慢？委員沒有再收到一個新的報告，非常抱歉，部長能不能說明一下？"],["林委員淑芬：我再補充一點，部長，你可以想一下，我覺得這個東西對人民很不公平，因為會形成一種壓力，它會逼迫所有醫療糾紛的兩造雙方，反正你又沒有辦法訴訟，這已經發生一個月了，你也不要告我了，我們去協調、和解，好像是實質上在廢除醫療責任的刑事責任、好像廢除了、好像真正的去刑責化了，就是醫療糾紛去刑責化。要真的去刑責化也可以，大家社會就來對話、修法，可是沒有修法，逼迫很多人被迫要去協調、被迫要去和解，拖了一年，眼看著訴訟無望，覺得身心俱疲，沒有辦法再去為自己討公道，只好被迫和解，也有少數幾個案子是這樣子，但絕大多數都還是繼續要爭一口氣，要還給家屬或是病人公道，但是這個到底是司法院繼續堅持己見、衛福部繼續堅持己見？然後兩造雙方拖著，犧牲的都是病人的權益。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，其實我們非常重視這個問題，我們也一直在溝通，我們為了因應這樣的……"],["林委員淑芬：這絕對是需要院際協調的喔！"],["邱部長泰源：所以本部與高等檢察署已經研議了短期間的解決方案，第一個，檢察機關……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你看你都還要看著稿子講，這代表你覺得這件事情無關緊要，你都要看稿子，這件事我不知道已經問過幾百遍了！"],["邱部長泰源：如果有鑑定的需要，可以洽詢相關的協會或公會，請他們提供醫療專業意見……"],["林委員淑芬：你隨便說說，法律上本來就是這樣寫，但是我問你，有幾個人……你講可以洽詢醫事團體、醫學會、醫院、個別醫生，還包括醫審會，請問有幾件啦？你在這裡給我這樣子虛與委蛇……"],["邱部長泰源：我們現在是5月1號才開始來做這個試辦計畫。"],["林委員淑芬：你剛剛講可以洽詢，請問有真正去洽詢、有進行訴訟的是幾件？你回答得出來嗎？如果你回答不出來，不要在這裡對立委虛與委蛇，你在這裡也是要對人民負責啊！你犧牲了每一個告訴人、當事人的訴訟權益耶！所以在這種狀況裡面，我們當初知道司法院一意孤行的修法，導致行政機關下的法務部、衛福部三方僵持不下，犧牲了告訴人的權益。那我現在問你，全臺到現在684件的醫糾，有312件送醫審會被退件，它不是先擱置，就是強迫兩造雙方，跟他說：你不要告了。強迫他犧牲自己的權利，放棄自己的權利，要他乾脆和解好了，他是被迫去和解，但是總的來講，因為他的權利被你們冰凍起來，所以他才被迫這樣欸！現在想一個辦法要解決，部長，你不知道你們裡面有辦法喔？你現在不知道你們裡面跟高檢署想了一個方法嗎？你不知道喔？你知不知道？"],["邱部長泰源：我們5月1號起要開始辦理一個醫療專業意見的試辦計畫，據了解這個可以解決九成的醫調案件無法進行偵辦的問題……"],["林委員淑芬：可以解決九成？我擔心的是你連一成都沒有辦法解決，你解決了9成的是行政程序的困擾，但你沒有辦法解決的是司法程序的困擾。院長，你聽我講，以醫療專業的意見給檢察機關作為刑事偵辦的參考，連有沒有可行性都不知道，所以你們5月1號開始要試辦一個照原來鑑定模式的計畫，但你們要說醫審會的鑑定報告不是鑑定報告了，不具司法上鑑定報告的準要件了，你們要把它變成專業的意見僅供參考，僅供檢察機關、法務部參考，那共識就是它是詢問你們衛福部醫療的專業意見，作為偵查階段的參考耶！可是它不是醫療鑑定，然後沒有具名，不需要具結，也不需要出庭去接受詰問，可是新的刑事訴訟法就不允許這樣子的規定，所以你解決了檢察機關可能會說依據醫審會、衛福部提供的專業意見，認為他可能有涉及疏失，然後這樣子要給人家起訴，這樣子有辦法起訴嗎？起訴以後送到司法院有辦法變成呈堂證供嗎？有嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，拖了這麼一段時間，覺得非常地不好意思，但這個事情經過行政院林明昕政委跟司法院的協調，才產生出現在試辦……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，這個不是跟司法院協調，這個是高檢署、法務部、衛福部自己提供出來解決行政部門、解決檢察機關要怎麼起訴、怎麼辦案件的困難，但是這個沒有經過法院的同意，沒有經過司法院的同意，所以可能你的起訴到司法院以後，有沒有辦法到法院那一端，沒有辦法進行真正的訴訟，這個起訴的法律要件完不完備，可能都是問號。"],["卓院長榮泰：我相信林明昕政委都有經過一些徵詢的方式。"],["林委員淑芬：政委都是行政部門。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，都已經經過一個徵詢的方式，但因為這個方式5月1日開始試辦，是不是懇請委員，我們用一、兩個月的時間，看看它能不能解決一些問題，如果不能的話，我們……"],["林委員淑芬：但是你要找司法院來商量，這是你們行政部門自己想出來、自己認為的，你們行政部門要踢到司法院，司法院再踢回來，院長，一年了，所以我才說這是需要院際協調的制度面問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是不是5月1日開始試辦，讓它有一段時間，我們來看看有沒有辦法解決，如果沒有辦法解決，或者是要有更好的方法，我跟委員我們一起，我也承諾我們會經過林明昕政委，再去研究看看如何跟司法院用院際的方式來商討這個問題。"],["林委員淑芬：不是，已經跟你們提醒8個月了，你們說要院際協商也談了8個月了，我現在要講醫改會，醫改會其實有一些建議，衛福部也要聽進去，檢察機關也要聽進去。它說現在醫審會的鑑定制度、方法就是不問不答，反正我就是幫你鑑定，鑑定完以後就出具書面資料，然後有些法官在審的時候，就說這個鑑定報告未涵蓋完整的問題，所以法官就會問很多問題，在問問題的時候就擔心鑑定的流程混亂且耗時，所以醫改會建議要建立更具體的提問機制，避免概括性的、假設性的詢問，確保鑑定的醫師能準確地回答核心問題，這個需要要求的是司法院的法官、需要要求的是我們的醫審會，所以明確完整的鑑定和提問的機制，這沒有兩院合作做不來的。","第二個，要提升法官對醫療鑑定的專業認知。醫界與司法界是臺灣最菁英的兩大勢力，一個是第三類組的第一名，一個是第一類組的第一名，所以有高度的專業落差，如果法官和律師對於醫療專業的知識缺乏理解，他要仰賴的就是鑑定報告，所以要透過專業的評析、依法的交流，提高司法人員在函詢和解讀鑑定報告時的專業素養，確保問題能夠精準聚焦在案件的核心，可是這個要跟司法院講、你們要去跟司法院講。"],["卓院長榮泰：有，報告委員，2月的時候，林明昕政委確實有召集司法院、衛福部、法務部和臺高檢來討論這個事情。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有結論。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以才有5月1日的醫療專業意見試辦，是不是請求委員能夠……"],["林委員淑芬：我就跟你講了這個鑑定報告跟刑事訴訟法的規定，鑑定報告的證據力要自然人簽名、具結、上庭，這個都不符合，我現在要告訴你，從法律的要件來看都不符合那個程序。第三個，醫改會還認為要優化鑑定制度，確保報告的公信力，過去醫審會的鑑定報告為什麼會被法院提案要修法，因為常常被批評問A答B或者是引用可信度極低的文獻，甚至缺少完整的論證過程。為了提升鑑定的公信力，醫改會建議現在鑑定至少初鑑的時候要有兩個醫師來初鑑，避免單一、一個醫師的鑑定結果就定生死，所以有預算的問題，在這裡面，衛福部醫事司很多年對這個預算……大家都覺得叫醫審會去鑑定，因為有編列預算，所以這個預算資源有沒有投入也很重要。我們現在要講，大家都覺得這個問題，司法院覺得很容易的事情，為什麼衛福部做不到？為什麼臺灣的醫生做不到？因為臺灣就是有困難，國外的鑑定有時候因為國土很大，東岸的問題叫西岸的人來鑑定，臺灣就是這麼小，某些特殊手術或是醫療方式，僅少數醫師能執行，所以你再怎麼匿名化、再怎麼去識別化或者雙盲，大家都猜得出來；也有人建議找專職的醫療鑑定委員，由退休的醫師來做專職的醫療鑑定，設立這個制度。但是這沒辦法，臺灣的醫生等退休之後來擔任，大家都覺得醫療科技推陳出新的速度相當快，今天這個專科下面還有次專科，當要去鑑定的時候，人家會挑戰你，問你在這個領域發表了幾篇的論文？你有多少貢獻？你有什麼能力來幫我做鑑定？以前也有很多的醫師的確在鑑定的時候被肉搜、被關說，甚至被告，臺灣就是這麼特殊，我可以理解醫生的壓力，所以在這種狀況，臺灣的醫療環境這麼狹隘，我們第一線的檢察官負擔也很沉重，在這種狀況裡面，醫法要合作、雙向要溝通，醫審會制度也要改善，衛福部也要給予支援，司法院這些法官的受訓也要在觀念上再溝通，制度面都要，所以這個東西的確就需要院際協商、院際合作，我們就是需要這樣子，可是拖了8個月，你現在推出這種一看就不符合現行刑事訴訟法的規定，你說要做做看，我們也不反對，那要做多久？可以運作嗎？可以嗎？你們保證可以運作嗎？這個東西看起來只有行政部門自己在講，沒有找司法院耶！部長、院長，你們現在5月1號試行的這個計畫，沒有司法院的同意耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個會期結束之前，這個階段大概有3個月的時間，我們將施行結果跟委員報告，再來進行需要的改進。"],["林委員淑芬：我想我也是很無奈，人民也只能這樣子。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員支持。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員精彩的質詢，謝謝卓院長、衛福部長的備詢。","接下來我們請馬文君委員質詢，邱若華委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1144201_00004"}}},{"id":"161068","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161068","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/db1f27f75049202698a2f5915529b2935a34676b6303881097e39277836b040f8a5713b642961ecf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"16:45:46 - 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報告委員三項原則是我們一直對外來宣布第一個就是核能的安全沒有顧慮第二是核廢料有適當的去處第三個就是當社會有共識所以"},{"start":211.069,"end":232.275,"text":"我是沒有辦法很確定要如何幫我們處理核廢料那我們現在已經有很多核廢料沒有辦法處理那你還問我說核廢料放在我家我要不要收多少錢其實他只是釋出了一個您可以去找他對談或是找他合作他開了一個窗口我現在只是問您有沒有願意去跟他談論這些"},{"start":234.488,"end":250.84,"text":"我們對於新的核能跟解決現在目前傳統核能的問題我們都樂於採取開放態度找任何專家來談找任何可以解決的方式共同來研究非常好那我也期待未來可以看到您跟鼓勵員或是AIP可以有一個這樣子的會談"},{"start":252.481,"end":281.349,"text":"他之前在接受台北時報的專訪也有講到說很多美國其實想要來擴大投資比如說AI但是因為我們高度的依賴進口所以很容易受到封鎖的影響他也在這篇採訪中有提到說包括美國包括日本都有重啟核能另外像我們胃黃委員會有去核三做一個考察不管是專家學者的評估或者是美國舉出許多核電研議安全的例子"},{"start":282.449,"end":310.836,"text":"他們是準備好了要幫我們所以我只是想知道在這個這麼急迫的時間因為下一篇媒體其實也蠻急的很多國際焦點都在台灣其實他們都蠻急的我知道院長對於剛上面三個方向也講了很久我聽了您跟許多委員的答詢我只想知道說你有沒有一個期程會去做我們可以開啟這個對話的窗口你說新的核能技術嗎"},{"start":311.966,"end":325.913,"text":"是 就是美國所提到的他願意協助我們的核廢料主體等等剛剛處長有提到SMR我們知道SMR還在一個相當漫長的研究的階段他要商轉可能還有一個相當長的時間"},{"start":327.054,"end":341.719,"text":"但是我們也願意在這個時候就來討論甚至在技術上如果可以增進我們未來能源的穩定的話當然是可以討論的一個話題那現在我們也在四方各方去尋求各種在新進技術上面的各種資訊"},{"start":343.117,"end":368.144,"text":"好那我希望看到你們有正式的這樣子會談接下來我們要給你看這個華爾街日報他所評論的他的標題其實寫的讓大家也覺得對於能源政策是不是符合我們的國家安全感到緊張了他說其實北京是喜歡台灣非核家園的他認為台灣把自己弄到能源的脆弱性是自找的"},{"start":368.524,"end":397.217,"text":"因為我們現在您剛提到很多再生能源可是再生能源之前有開了一些支票這些支票的比例是跳票的那我們現在又貿然把核電全部停掉更是加大了我們最依賴海運的天然氣或是煤大家都已經點出相同的一個問題了所以我現在也想要知道說您會不會願意聆聽這些國際專家們的建議把這些建議全部納為您未來一個考量"},{"start":397.87,"end":419.503,"text":"是的,雖然我們也非常的了解多元發展綠能台灣自己的產業跟國際大廠來都需要買綠電這個前提是一直存在的那我們還是認為說多元發展綠能是我們整個能源穩定供電當中一環重點還是尋求安全穩定的供電這個是政府最高的原則"},{"start":420.478,"end":446.886,"text":"但是現在的前提是當大家國際社會對你的能源安全有疑慮的時候你是不是綠電你還沒有辦法達到您所開出來的支票的比例那中間是不是有其他的替代方案嗎跟委員報告到2032年之前我們新的電廠我們從南部的這個大林還有中部的通宵"},{"start":447.981,"end":458.312,"text":"還有台中還有南部的興達北部的大潭跟協和六大電廠如果完成加上民營的IPP民營電廠我們的供電量是足以應付的"},{"start":459.121,"end":485.401,"text":"臺灣"},{"start":486.462,"end":511.412,"text":"要走向全世界不能專聽一個國家或是少數國家的意見我剛講的Economist是歐洲的我們都要聽大家的意見我也曾經上網去找很多國際的媒體有沒有其他的利潤基礎但是現在一致都是很擔心我們的韌性所以在這邊就是提醒院長那剛剛院長也做了一個結論也就是我們是OK的"},{"start":512.092,"end":526.388,"text":"剛院長做了結論嘛 我們就在這邊留下一個記錄我們自己的電廠跟民營電廠都工程順利完成 情況底下我們是安全無虞的現在我們的責任就是讓這些電廠能夠依時序來上路好 我們下一個"},{"start":526.949,"end":541.881,"text":"想要提到這個是我們的陳時中政委他在四月底的時候接受了天下雜誌的專訪他的標題就寫到說台灣的生育率全球後短半他也蠻擔心的因為落後日本"},{"start":542.621,"end":564.063,"text":"倒數第二現在南韓正在激起直衝再來他說我們年輕人撫養老人很快在幾十年以內就會從2比1變成1比1他有提到幾個重點比如他認為我們補貼的其實是不足的等一下我引用一些數據"},{"start":566.345,"end":591.632,"text":"這個標題就提到說他認同台灣的單身女性想生孩子而且政府必須要支持最後呢他有講到說我們的環境職場的環境不夠友善育兒這個相信上次我們兩個也一起討論過今天我們要再更深入的去探討所以第一點我們就是要講的是上個會期非常非常可惜啦我覺得最後可能有一點流於這個"},{"start":594.264,"end":623.661,"text":"民進黨扛不太住內部的政治壓力最後呢是署長還有部長說雖然提出來的草案現在可能各個委員還沒有辦法達到共識不過他們其實早就準備好了A版跟B版所以隨時都可以再拿出來選擇先把人工生殖法脫鉤那脫鉤的話當然對於許多的單身女性也是樂見其成因為他們的卵巢他們的卵子沒有辦法遭受這樣子年齡上的等待嘛"},{"start":624.201,"end":637.033,"text":"所以至今呢你們說當時你們手上就已經備好兩個版本了那現在已經過了四個月了我是希望知道說什麼時候行政院才可以送到立法院這樣子的你們早就準備好的版本"},{"start":640.7,"end":659.239,"text":"因為這個人工生殖法正如委員所提的我們是經過預告然後聽很多的聲音以後其實部長你很簡單的給我大概一個月、兩個月、三個月、半年你稍微給我一個數字就好大家關心這個議題的人是想要知道一個時程應該在"},{"start":663.849,"end":671.163,"text":"下個會期前會下個會期以前好那這個就是本席需要知道的答案就這樣子而已謝謝部長"},{"start":673.22,"end":693.854,"text":"再來我們看這個圖主委長已經看過非常多次了2019年蔡英文喊出0到6歲國家一起養的政策以後我們台灣的新生兒人數是這個降的速度實在是太快了不忍心看啦越跌越快龍年比兔年少原本你們預期的高點這個也是大家都已經問過你的"},{"start":694.875,"end":713.36,"text":"那這邊呢 他在專訪中 陳正偉在專訪中講到說對比其他面臨少子化危機的國家比如說法國或日本他認為我們投資的比例是低的你有沒有機會我們可以把這樣子總預算的比例再來拉高呢您覺得 您認同嗎這個報告委員"},{"start":718.252,"end":731.563,"text":"國家的財政能力持續在改善當中所以我覺得我們更有能力來面對這樣的問題而且少子女化的問題是國安問題我們承諾在明年的預算當中一定想辦法來寬裂人口對策的這個方式"},{"start":734.125,"end":761.145,"text":"是那陳時中政委他有一個蠻具體而且他應該訪查過非常多的人所提出的他認為啦現在政府所提供的育兒津貼零零總總第一個很難選擇第二個你要到處去蒐集那我試算過了如果我們就台北市來看啊你把每一個津貼都領完可能還不到兩萬塊但是政委他認為覺得一定要讓人民有感有感他認為是折合台幣三萬元"},{"start":762.426,"end":775.228,"text":"他這樣子才會有感才讓年輕人有動力來生小孩不曉得我們這邊是不是有機會可以努力的去配合到他認為這個有感的方案現在我們正進入到明年"},{"start":776.746,"end":799.971,"text":"總預算 概算的構想當中但是一方面因為國際的情勢到底是變化萬千我們恆珠國內我們自己的財政能力我剛剛已經答應過委員了在人口對策的這個向下我們會想盡辦法來編列寬裕的是的 我這邊也只是希望您可以在一個月內給我一個可行性的評估跟報告好嗎"},{"start":800.919,"end":806.963,"text":"我們就把我們的概算一直往前走我覺得大概就可以了解到我們的方向最後我要講這個"},{"start":809.97,"end":833.949,"text":"彈性工時彈性的育兒這是陳時中政委也很重視因為他說企業必須要依照員工來提供相對應的彈性價因為人力很吃緊而且台灣八成是中小企業這個事辦計畫真的做得非常的差我在這邊先給您看一段我質詢等一下可以跟你邀到一個書面資料你已經找誰做的溝通跟統整"},{"start":834.469,"end":839.772,"text":"部長在委員會的質詢的時候是跟我說他跟很多的機關團體都做過討論不過他沒有留下會議記錄非常的可惜那這個他還講不出什麼時候可以開始事辦計畫但我也用他之前的質詢來告訴院長他遇到什麼問題"},{"start":859.181,"end":879.544,"text":"各位我們都很清楚可是我們必須起步我們不能再逃避這個問題了院長現在擺在眼前的是我們接下來的這個狀況會越惡劣問題會越大會越不公平性別不平等問題也會更加劇這是現在的問題所以就算沒辦法完全解決我們也必須面對現在是我們這個時間點已經不得不做的事情所以我很希望我們可以從行政院的角度來去處理這個問題我也不希望只是丟給勞動部"},{"start":880.185,"end":899.835,"text":"他從2023年的年底您可以看得出來洪部長非常的急我覺得甚至他這個急迫的程度是更甚於我啦他從2023年年底就很關心這樣子的議題請問您可以在一個月內也可以評估這個可行性嗎因為我們已經從2023年我就用"},{"start":900.615,"end":909.824,"text":"洪偉仁當時的質詢來告訴你遇到的困境是因為院長必須要整合衛福部還有勞動部才能夠一起做到可不可以在公務部門做事辦計畫"},{"start":911.251,"end":934.373,"text":"我覺得洪委員到洪部長熱情絲毫沒有改變那個跟陳委員報告到目前為止我們都還非常非常積極的跟包括跟相關的團體跟產業跟企業在討論彈性暈流停的事辦的方案我們希望能夠做得更到位甚至更彈性多久以內我們可以看到這個院長所主持的可行性報告"},{"start":956.279,"end":964.525,"text":"好 谢谢陈金威委员子谢谢卓院长 卫福部还有劳动部两位部长的背景 谢谢接下来我们请林淑芬委员子马文君委员请准备"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":552,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（16時45分）主席、各位官員、卓院長、還有媒體朋友，大家好。首先請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["陳委員菁徽：卓院長，對於The Economist，相信您已經被詢問非常多了，但本席今天比較關心的是上禮拜其實我有延續問到天然氣這個問題。我想問的是，它點出我們臺灣的一個國安問題，也就是我們能源的海運依賴性，它計算出來我們的能源海運依賴性達到97.3%。我想請教院長，你有沒有什麼解決、下降這個依賴性的方案或是方法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們用LNG天然氣轉換來取代煤，這是一個橋接的過程，在國家的能源政策上面，這是橋接過程所必須要面臨的。當然我們也知道儲存的期間、運送的方式對國家的挑戰是很大的，但是相較之下，如果繼續燃燒煤的話，國人的健康、空氣污染及減碳淨零的目標更遙遠。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，不過不管是煤或者是天然氣，其實它對於海運的依賴性還是非常大。"],["卓院長榮泰：是、是、是，但是輕重有別。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我等一下還會再給你看國外的智庫、媒體或是學者給您的一些資料。事實上，美方給過我們非常多的建議，我相信卓院長也有聆聽他們對我們軍事方面的建議，對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：也有討論的一些機會，對。"],["陳委員菁徽：當然最近從3月之後他們非常頻繁，也許是因為全世界都知道我們5月17號以後核電就沒有了，我們就是成為正式的非核家園，所以全世界有在注意我們的能源政策，還有我們的國安危機等等的。當然，我也覺得我可以跟院長一起來看一下美方對我們有什麼具體的建議。為什麼會提谷立言，是因為他從3月開始，不管是在他自己個人還有他去演講的場合，其中包括我跟賴清德總統都同時出席的美國商會，他都有講到這樣子的話。昨天他也發文了，他還發到AIT官方的粉絲專頁上面，他講到其實美國願意盡全力協助解決臺灣的能源需求，包括在核能方面，美國準備好，例如小型的反應爐SMR，也樂意幫助臺灣解決核廢料儲存的挑戰。你也知道，我們在教育委員會討論的時候，其實許多委員還是提到核廢料這樣子的問題。美方已經提出關於核能，不管是願意協助您的方案或者是您覺得很燙手的核廢料問題，不知道您有沒有希望跟他們達成合作或是跟他們有初步的對話？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，報告委員，三項原則是我們一直對外宣布的，第一個就是核能的安全沒有顧慮，第二個是核廢料有適當的去處，第三個就是讓社會有共識。我是沒有辦法很確定他要如何幫我們處理核廢料，我們現在已經有很多核廢料沒有辦法處理，那天還有委員問我說，核廢料放在我家，我要不要收多少錢？"],["陳委員菁徽：沒有，其實他只是釋出了一個……您可以去找他對談或是找他合作，他開了一個窗口，我現在只是問您有沒有意願去跟他談論這些。"],["卓院長榮泰：對於新的核能跟解決目前傳統核能的問題，我們都樂於採取開放態度，找任何專家來談，找任何可以解決的方式共同來研究。"],["陳委員菁徽：非常好，我也期待未來可以看到您跟谷立言或AIT有這樣子的會談，他之前接受臺北時報的專訪時，也有講到美國其實想要來擴大投資，比如說AI，但是因為我們高度的依賴進口，所以很容易受到封鎖的影響。他也在這篇採訪中提到包括美國、日本都有重啟核能，另外像我們衛環委員會有去核三考察，不管是專家學者的評估，或者是美國舉出許多核電延役安全的例子，他們是準備好了要幫我們，我只是想知道在這麼急迫的時間，因為下一篇媒體其實也滿急的，很多國際焦點都在臺灣，其實他們都滿急的，我知道院長對於剛剛上面三個方向也講了很久，我聽了您跟許多委員的答詢，我只想知道你有沒有一個期程會去做我們可以開啟這個對話的窗口？"],["卓院長榮泰：你是說新的核能技術嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：是，就是美國所提到他們願意協助我們的核廢料處理等等。"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛處長有提到SMR，我們知道SMR還在相當漫長的研究階段，距離商轉可能還有相當長的時間，但是我們也願意在這個時候就來討論，甚至在技術上如果可以增進我們未來能源穩定的話，當然是可以討論的一個話題，現在我們也在各方尋求在新進技術上面的各種資訊。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我希望看到你們有正式的會談。接下來要給您看華爾街日報的評論，他的標題其實寫得讓大家覺得對於能源政策是不是符合我們的國家安全感到緊張，他說其實北京是喜歡臺灣非核家園的，他認為臺灣把自己弄到能源的脆弱性是自找的。您剛剛提到很多再生能源，可是再生能源之前有開了一些支票，這些支票的比例是跳票的，而我們現在又貿然把核電全部停掉，更是加大了我們對最依賴海運的天然氣或煤的需求，大家都已經點出相同的問題了，所以我現在也想要知道您會不會願意聆聽這些國際專家們的建議，把這些建議全部納為您未來的考量？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，我們也非常了解必須多元發展綠能，臺灣自己的產業跟國際大廠來都需要買綠電這個前提是一直存在的，我們還是認為多元發展綠能是我們整個能源穩定供電當中的一環，重點還是尋求安全穩定的供電，這個是政府最高的原則。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是現在的前提是當國際社會對你的能源安全有疑慮的時候，而綠電還沒有辦法達到您所開出來的支票的比例，那中間是不是有其他的替代方案？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，到2032年之前，我們新的電廠，從南部的大林，還有中部的通霄、臺中，以及南部的興達、北部的大潭跟協和，六大電廠如果完成，加上IPP民營電廠，我們的供電量是足以應付的。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我會把這句話記得，您說供電量是足以應付的。最後我只想要close一下，因為現在是臺美最好的時刻，所以我也在這邊誠摯的建議院長，美方對於我們安全的顧慮不斷提出建議，我也希望您除了親美，我們也可以一起來聆聽美國好朋友對我們最真摯而且非常頻繁的這些建議好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺灣要走向全世界，不能專聽一個國家或是少數國家的意見，我們需要……"],["陳委員菁徽：我剛剛講的The Economist是歐洲的，還有其他的期刊……"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們都要聽大家的意見。"],["陳委員菁徽：我也曾經上網去找很多國際的媒體有沒有其他的立論基礎，但是現在一致都是很擔心我們的韌性，所以在這邊要提醒院長，而剛剛院長也做了結論，也就是我們是OK的。剛剛院長做了結論，我們就在這邊留下一個紀錄。"],["卓院長榮泰：在我們自己的電廠跟民營電廠的工程都順利完成的情況底下，我們是安全無虞的，現在我們的責任就是讓這些電廠能夠依時序來上路。"],["陳委員菁徽：下一個問題我想要提到陳時中政委在4月底的時候接受天下雜誌的專訪，他的標題就寫到臺灣的生育率全球後段班，他也滿擔心的，因為落後日本、倒數第二，現在南韓正在急起直衝。再來，他說我們年輕人撫養老人的比例很快在幾十年以內就會從2比1變成1比1，他有提到幾個重點，他說到比如他認為我們的補貼其實是不足的，等一下我引用一些數據來說明；再來，他的標題就提到他認同臺灣的單身女性想生孩子，而且政府必須要支持；最後，他有講到我們的職場環境不夠友善，相信上次我們兩個也一起討論過，今天我們要再更深入地去探討。","第一點，我們要講的是，上個會期非常可惜，我覺得最後可能有一點流於民進黨扛不太住內部的政治壓力，最後是署長及部長說，雖然提出來的草案現在可能各個委員還沒有辦法達到共識，不過他們其實早就準備好了A版跟B版，隨時都可以再拿出來，選擇先把人工生殖法脫鉤。脫鉤的話，當然許多的單身女性也是樂見其成，因為他們的卵巢、卵子沒有辦法遭受這樣子年齡上的等待。當時你們說手上已經備好兩個版本了，現在已經過了4個月了，我希望知道什麼時候行政院才可以送到立法院這個你們早就準備好的版本。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["邱部長泰源：好。因為人工生殖法正如委員所提的，我們經過預告，聽了很多的聲音以後才決定……"],["陳委員菁徽：其實部長你很簡單地給我大概1個月、2個月、3個月、半年，你稍微給我一個數字就好，關心這個議題的人是想要知道一個時程。"],["邱部長泰源：應該在下個會期前會……"],["陳委員菁徽：下個會期以前？"],["邱部長泰源：嗯。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這個就是本席需要知道的答案，就這樣子而已，謝謝部長。","再來，我們看一下簡報上的圖，卓院長已經看過非常多次了。2019年蔡英文喊出0到6歲國家一起養的政策以後，我們臺灣新生兒人數降的速度實在是太快了，讓人不忍心看，愈跌愈快，龍年比兔年少，原本你們預期的高點……這個也是大家都已經問過你的。陳政委在專訪中講到，對比其他面臨少子化危機的國家，比如法國、日本，他認為我們投資的比例是低的，您覺得有沒有機會可以把這樣子總預算的比例再拉高呢？您認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，國家的財政能力持續在改善當中，所以我覺得我們更有能力來面對這樣的問題，而且少子女化的問題是國安問題，我們承諾在明年的預算當中一定想辦法……"],["陳委員菁徽：會把它提高。"],["卓院長榮泰：來寬列人口對策的方式。"],["陳委員菁徽：是。陳時中政委他有一個滿具體、而且他應該訪查過非常多的人所提出的，他認為現在政府所提供的育兒津貼林林總總，第一個，很難選擇；第二個，你要到處去蒐集。我試算過了，如果就臺北市來看，把每一個津貼都領完，可能還不到兩萬塊。但是政委覺得一定要讓人民有感，所謂的有感，他認為是折合臺幣3萬元，他說這樣子才會有感，才能讓年輕人有動力來生小孩。不曉得是不是有機會努力地去配合這個他認為的有感方案？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在我們正進入到明年總預算概算的構想當中，但是一方面因為國際的情勢到底是變化萬千，我們衡諸國內自己的財政能力……我剛剛已經答應過委員，在人口對策的項下，我們會想盡辦法來編列寬裕的預算。"],["陳委員菁徽：是的，我只是希望您可以在1個月可以給我一個可行性的評估跟報告，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就把我們的概算一直往前走，委員大概就可以瞭解到我們的方向。"],["陳委員菁徽：最後我要講，彈性的育兒是陳時中政委也很重視的，他說企業必須要依照員工來提供相對應的彈性假，因為人力很吃緊，而且臺灣八成是中小企業。這個試辦計畫真的做得非常差，我先給您看一段我質詢部長的影片。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員菁徽：部長在委員會質詢的時候是跟我說，他跟很多的機關、團體都做過討論，不過他沒有留下會議紀錄，非常地可惜，而他還講不出什麼時候可以開始有試辦計畫，但我也用他之前的質詢來告訴院長他遇到了什麼問題。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員菁徽：他從2023年的年底，您可以看得出來洪部長非常地急，我覺得甚至他急迫的程度更甚於我，他從2023年年底就很關心這樣子的議題。請問您在1個月內，也可以評估這個的可行性嗎？因為我們從2023年就已經提了，我就用洪委員當時的質詢來告訴你所遇到的困境，是因為院長必須要整合衛福部還有勞動部才能夠一起做到，可不可以在公務部門做試辦計畫？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長答復，我覺得從洪委員到洪部長，熱情絲毫沒有改變。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，看得出來。"],["洪部長申翰：跟陳委員報告，到目前為止，我們都還非常非常積極地跟相關團體、跟產業、跟企業在討論彈性育嬰留停的試辦方案，我們現在希望能夠做得更到位，甚至更彈性。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以多久以內我們可以看到院長所主持的可行性報告？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個原來在設想的時候以為這個方向很好，結果試辦結果沒有得到預期的效果，我覺得試辦有問題，重新試辦。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我們會看到你們的檢討報告？"],["洪部長申翰：我們會有一個重新規劃的方案，然後以更彈性的方向，更符合大家的需求。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，本席1個月內會跟你們追這個報告，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、衛福部還有勞動部兩位部長的備詢。","接下來我們請林淑芬委員質詢，馬文君委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1144201_00004"}}},{"id":"160975","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160975","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/db1f27f7504920267fdbf38107cc685a5a34676b63038810a01ba0d305be83bc74ad0faf363c552f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"16:23:59 - 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有請我們卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢廖委員好院長好 院長辛苦了院長第一題我想要請問一下有關明年度各級的學校寒假跟農曆春假中間有三天你可以看一下簡報上面"},{"start":43.223,"end":68.982,"text":"還有2月11號到2月13號這個空窗期然後馬上又接著是農曆的過年所以這事情其實有很多的家長抱怨大家都覺得學校這樣子的放假安排是很荒謬行程的規劃會大亂然後返鄉的車票也不好買最重要是孩子學習的連貫性也是一個問題更不要忘記冬季還是流感的流行季"},{"start":69.542,"end":97.582,"text":"那很多公衛的學者有說盡量不要大規模的人流移動也可能造成醫療體系的負荷所以希望院長您看到這個狀況是不是可以體諒跟理解家長老師和這個醫療體系他們相關的擔憂是不是這個部分因為休假部分行政部門應該就可以去修改這個相關的規則可不可以請院長在這部分體諒一下學生和這些家長們相關的擔憂"},{"start":99.407,"end":122.844,"text":"確實因為明年這個春節的時間的提前所以變成說當有一天這個未來補假的問題會產生問題228好像這一天我如果沒有記錯的話228這一天如果補假會變成沒有放假又變成補假所以院長我是希望說 重點在大年初四這一天對我是希望說您這個這個部分是不是可以去調整有非常多的家長在反映我們現在這個"},{"start":124.766,"end":150.302,"text":"過春節連假的當中這一天我們有在注意到這三天有空窗期啊再請院長是不是回去研議一下看怎麼把它調整不然連貫在一起這個要跟教育單位去各個提醒謝謝米倫的提醒好不好那院長再來我想要請教一下你你有沒有看過這個美國白宮的經濟顧問委員會的主席米倫在入閣前他有提出的報告中的一項計畫左邊這邊"},{"start":154.039,"end":174.51,"text":"他其實就是現在的海湖莊園協議那他提到關稅作為談判工具那他的目的是要逼迫其他國家升值他們的匯率並購買美國國債最終讓美元大幅貶值那這份計畫就是所謂的海湖莊園協議那他裡面也提到經過一連串的這個關稅懲罰性關稅之後貿易夥伴"},{"start":181.174,"end":199.481,"text":"更容易接受某種形式的貨幣協議來換取降低關稅那麼現在其實很多人也是幾乎所有的財經學者都在說這個海湖狀元協議其實就是廣場協議2.0的版本那這個海湖狀元協議裡面還有一個核心理念院長"},{"start":200.726,"end":208.777,"text":"請聽一下就是美國提供軍事保護那貿易夥伴需要付出的代價包含配合美國讓貨幣升值以換取"},{"start":211.893,"end":235.463,"text":"這個美元貶值然後購買低利率的超長期美國國債來減輕美國的債務壓力那其實這聽起來是很瘋狂可是其實他很符合川普覺得盟友應該為美國軍事保護買單他不喜歡美元太強的這個概念那根據上面的內容以及相關的報導其實台灣可以說對美國來講是一個"},{"start":237.805,"end":251,"text":"這個有關商周也說,這叫做夢幻客戶那有幾個條件台灣都滿足第一個,我們高度仰賴美國市場第二個,需要美國的保護第三個,也深怕我們美國視為我們是匯率操縱國"},{"start":253.283,"end":277.373,"text":"所以也是被認為說我們是很快迅速在這個慘判中會妥協的那院長在這部分也很巧在五月一號行政院五月一號的時候稱台美完成首輪磋商那隔天五月二號匯率就大升值所以因此根據前面所說我想大家最想問的就是究竟我們是否在這個匯率上面跟美國有達成某種協議嗎"},{"start":280.492,"end":303.071,"text":"5月1號的這個由副院長領軍的談判團跟美方的協議談判過程當中我再次重調沒有涉及任何的關稅問題是 好 我知道對不起 匯率問題我有看你們這兩天的說法其實基本上您跟楊建宗總裁還有賴清德總統都說是沒有涉及到匯率可是我從上述的幾個論證 幾個事件"},{"start":305.993,"end":326.082,"text":"告訴你其實很難讓民眾相信但因為這麼巧就在這個時候台幣的匯率暴升不過我就想追問那請問目前你們說沒有但未來是否會將匯率跟這個超長期的低利率美國國債當成談判籌碼之一以換取低關稅以及美國提供的軍事保護"},{"start":327.179,"end":351.645,"text":"目前談判的內容當然我們不便對外說但是我們有說明的現在談判的內容就是在對等關稅、非關稅貿易障礙、出國管制、經濟安全等等那也就是說您不排除把這兩項當成是未來的籌碼之一這個說法我早上說過不能這麼武斷的說排除不排除還沒有發生的事情還沒發生就是不排除啦其實院長應該就是這樣啦關稅跟非關稅"},{"start":355.227,"end":360.661,"text":"貿易障礙還有出國管制另外還有經濟安全來做討論院長我要提醒你啦 就是說"},{"start":361.997,"end":384.352,"text":"你剛剛這句話其實就是在算是避重就重你不能這樣解讀我絕對沒有這樣的意思其實簡單來講你是說不能排除好沒關係我想要跟院長說的是在1985年的廣場協議之後其實可以看到日本的下場就是失落了30年不管是經濟房地產或者是產業外移所以其實有這次的前車之鑒你可以看到"},{"start":385.313,"end":406.166,"text":"跟美日談判的時候日本首相是強硬的表示不會為了協議犧牲日本的利益那我這裡要再請院長因為你剛剛還是沒有辦法講清楚嘛那我還是說希望站在國家利益不要一味的妥協不要短視應該為了我們國家的利益長遠的利益來著想不要讓這個海湖狀元協議變成台灣的廣場協議2.0好嗎"},{"start":409.893,"end":425.126,"text":"這個總統在聲明當中已經說過了他會爭取國家的利益他也不會放過任何一個產業但是院長我跟你講這前後這樣子講起來其實以上不管執政團隊有沒有談或者是有沒有把它未來變成是一個籌碼之一"},{"start":426.508,"end":447.649,"text":"議員我們在這裡要對國人做一個正面的宣示就是談判的過程沒有匯率院長您先聽我講完吧好我現在沒有在講這個我現在告訴你說不管到底有沒有相不相信這個你們講你們覺得我也都相信你們講的話但是現在的重點事實擺在眼前的是還沒變成籌碼之一我們台幣就已經迅速的升值"},{"start":448.75,"end":455.643,"text":"已經迅速的升值所以我想要請教院長在台幣迅速升值跟關稅的雙夾擊之下這樣對於我國出口產業的短期衝擊和長期衝擊是什麼請教院長"},{"start":462.162,"end":479.198,"text":"最近一周以來台幣的強勁的升值當然對我們的產業造成相當大的衝擊那我們現在包括央行也從過去穩定貨幣的相關政策之下我們持續的加強各種觀察院長你曉得短期衝擊是什麼嗎您可以舉幾個例子嗎"},{"start":480.279,"end":492.898,"text":"我說的是這個禮拜以來啦上個禮拜到現在我會說針對匯率急速升值這件事情照理說應該已經要去評估了吧好沒關係院長你如果沒有辦法條列式的講出來我跟你講有幾個衝擊第一個"},{"start":495.402,"end":524.662,"text":"然後利率跟獲利縮水這個很嚴重部分的代工業和製造業他一夕就是轉成本來比如說5%好了他迅速拉升了10%他就虧錢了這個單就虧錢了甚至我們地方上有產業界的龍頭說他一年出口已經被下訂了5000個貨櫃就迅速升值可能會虧爆已經打到建股他本來還不是出口美國他本來是歐洲市場所以他連這個本來他本來沒有想到這麼嚴重"},{"start":526.063,"end":554.361,"text":"連匯率都變成這樣的情況之下他基本上是被打到見骨這是第一個所以跟我們的院長報告第一個短期的衝擊第二個是現金流跟他的財務壓力那第三個就是訂單的成本和採購延後第四個是避險的成本跟他們要操作的難度很拉高這些中小企業大企業可能還可以小企業就很辛苦還有另外同業的競爭力跟市場的地位這五個是短期衝擊"},{"start":555.482,"end":574.223,"text":"那再來長期衝擊長期這樣子維持我們的匯率往上走請問院長我要告訴你的是第一個長期的它的毛利跟獲利也會持續的壓縮再來我們國家出口量跟訂單會縮減再來就是我們生產的產地跟供應鏈要重組"},{"start":576.468,"end":592.142,"text":"所以再來最後一個是我們的產業的結構轉型的壓力所以我就想要我剛剛問的問題就是顯示出院長你們好像對於這個評估並沒有很詳細的評估啊這讓我們的中小企業很擔心我以為你這個"},{"start":593.208,"end":608.917,"text":"非常有學術專業但是我跟你們報告央行長期對匯率的掌握就是定期在做這樣的評估只是現在針對現在快速上漲的這幾個幾天以來央行昨天已經對外宣布了他的說法"},{"start":610.489,"end":624.986,"text":"那我再進一步問你那對於勞工的評估勞工權益的衝擊因為剛剛講是產業的部分那接下來最重要最關心的也就是我們的勞工我們產業支持不下去的時候失業勞工的狀況就可能會發生"},{"start":626.047,"end":645.14,"text":"所以我們其實現在很擔心這個我剛剛也苦口婆心的在問的就是看到目前為止行政院好像對於這個關稅之外對於這個匯率的雙重的夾擊並沒有去做一個很詳盡的評估剛剛已經說了這個是讓我們很擔心的央行長期以來定期在做這些評估你又說沒有評估這不對啊其實這個題目啊"},{"start":647.521,"end":667.916,"text":"上週二這個牛許廷委員也問了問你們有沒有做關稅以外有沒有做匯率衝擊的評估其實你們那時候回答就是沒有所以過了一個禮拜之後也是這樣我回答一樣啊央行定期都有來報告相關的內容昨天央行已經對外說了我們要點出嚴重性所以想要問你其實在我國現在美國市場簡單來講我們衝擊很大本來關稅是第一個衝擊"},{"start":672.839,"end":685.525,"text":"美國的衝擊再來就是匯率提升之外就是出口商等等的然後再來就是我們國人就業問題那還有一些所謂的這個上市公司鼓勵有一些股民的權益也可能會受到這個影響"},{"start":686.775,"end":708.037,"text":"所以其實我上次在質詢的時候也說這次4100億的這個預算裡面你們針對這個農工產業的補助是930億那其實我是認為遠遠不夠那對於勞犬的部分是150億所以這個部分我想要請這個院長剛剛講到衝擊評估的部分第一個是不是可以請院長盡速的"},{"start":710.899,"end":734.19,"text":"將這個有關於關稅以及匯率的雙重夾擊之下的不同情境可不可以有個比較這個嚴謹的評估報告可以調給本席包含譬如說1比30有沒有辦法維穩在1比30左右那如果調到1比28或是調到1比25會發生什麼事情受衝擊的產業規模跟人數勞工的人數這是我們現在關心的事情要拜託院長"},{"start":735.169,"end":754.958,"text":"另外外界也普遍認為新台幣的30元就是維持在1比30的部分是心理跟經濟的雙重關卡如果守不住的話也會恐怕不只是無薪假的問題也可能引發大規模的失業所以包含我們中部的關鍵產業工具機來講所以2024年的時候其實我們比2014年的工具機產業已經下滑65%"},{"start":761.881,"end":788.678,"text":"可是今年又遇到這樣子的匯率升值很可能會滅團很擔心會有大量的倒閉潮和滅團那張忠謀董事長曾經也說過新台幣如果對美元如果升值1%他們的營業利率就會減少0.4%甚至有一些評估就是關於上市櫃公司可能縮減的是7.5%其實我們要講的是這些詳細的數據這些是一些金融行業估出來的"},{"start":789.744,"end":813.578,"text":"所以我們其實最擔心的就是最終吳興跟柴源草的來臨那本席這邊希望因為過去你們上次是編930億那支持勞工150億可是你同時有拿了1500億來做所謂的任性但是其實我們在看的時候跟所謂的關稅跟我們的匯率跟民生的關聯不大那我這邊是覺得這1500億應該是不是歸回公務總預算裡面那應該把這1500億立即注入"},{"start":819.341,"end":830.806,"text":"跟這些勞工產業有關的急迫需求所以本席的具體建議包含我們勞工的部分因為勞工部長也上來嘛其實我很擔心的是這個那我們希望具體建議的是"},{"start":832.506,"end":854.441,"text":"我們希望勞工權益的部分在這4100立面的益利可以加高那包含著什麼包含著產業的部分的話就是金融支持因為現在已經不只是對美出口的基期的問題你上次說是10%基期的問題現在已經不只是這個部分是全部出口產業所以這部分也要滾動調整要請院長回去金融支持的部分要加大"},{"start":854.901,"end":876.821,"text":"第二個勞動的部分我們希望可以增加我們的勞工權益就是我們安心及時上工這個東西可以請我們的部長因為這個過去在疫情期間是有這樣子的支持那現在因為要還有一定的程序要走因為它不是常態性的所以這個部分是不是可以請院長和部長回去去盡速的研議"},{"start":879.407,"end":900.684,"text":"其實過去相關有的就業工具其實我們都已經盤點都已經做相關的準備了可是每一個工具要實施的時間點適合的時間點可能不同現在可能比較會先要先處理的事情是關於減班休息這個企業如果發生減班休息的話我們怎麼如何因應來支持勞工那剛剛廖委員說的安心及時上工我們其實也做了相關的盤點"},{"start":901.585,"end":919.951,"text":"可是這部分比較是要來創造比較多的公部門的就業的機會來容納失業的勞工那這個部分我們已經做相關的盤點了可是它的實施的時間點可能會跟請問你們現在盤點的時程跟這個規模有沒有反映到現在即將可能來臨的這是第一件事我們現在的工具都已經做了盤點了"},{"start":920.911,"end":945.212,"text":"現在是來看哪一個工具不同的適合的時間點我現在提出這兩個具體的要求請您回去研議這兩件事第二個是長年有的請你擴大它的人數和它的規模那再請你們提供一份報告給本席班好 謝謝廖偉祥委員的資訊麻煩請行政院將廖偉祥委員所取的資料交給偉祥辦公室謝謝卓院長 謝謝勞動部長備詢我們現在休息五分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":485,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（16時24分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：廖委員好！"],["廖委員偉翔：院長好！院長辛苦喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，第一題我想要請問一下，有關明年度各級學校寒假與農曆春假中間有三天，你可以看一下這個簡報上面，有2月11日到2月13日這個空窗期，馬上又接著是農曆過年，所以這個事情其實有很多的家長抱怨，大家都覺得學校這樣子的放假安排很荒謬，行程的規劃會大亂，返鄉的車票也不好買，最重要的是孩子學習的連貫性也是一個問題，更不要忘記冬季還是流感的流行季，很多公衛的學者也說盡量不要進行大規模的人流移動，也可能造成醫療體系的負荷。所以院長您看到這個狀況是不是可以體諒跟理解家長、老師和醫療體系他們相關的擔憂，因為休假的部分行政部門應該可以修改相關的規則，可不可以請院長在這部分體諒一下學生和這些家長們相關的擔憂？"],["卓院長榮泰：確實因為明年春節的時間，變成有一天的補假會產生問題，我如果沒有記錯的話好像是二二八這一天，二二八這一天如果補假，會變成沒有放假又要補假……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以院長，我是希望……"],["卓院長榮泰：重點在大年初四這一天。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，我是希望這個部分您是不是可以去調整？有非常多的家長在反映。"],["卓院長榮泰：有，春節連假當中的這一天我們有注意到，今天……"],["廖委員偉翔：這三天有空窗期，再請院長是不是回去研議一下，看怎麼調整，讓它連貫在一起……"],["卓院長榮泰：稍微能夠調一下，這個要跟教育單位去討論。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以請院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的提醒。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來，我想要請教一下院長，你有沒有看過美國白宮經濟顧問委員會的主席米倫在入閣前他提出的報告中有一項計畫？也就是簡報的左邊，這其實就是現在的海湖莊園協議，他提到把關稅作為談判工具，目的是要迫逼其他國家升值他們的匯率，並購買美國國債，最終讓美元大幅貶值，這份計畫就是所謂的海湖莊園協議。裡面也提到，經過一連串的懲罰性關稅之後，貿易夥伴更容易接受以某種形式的貨幣協議來換取降低關稅。現在其實很多人、幾乎所有的財經學者都在說，這個海湖莊園協議其實就是廣場協議2.0的版本，這個海湖莊園協議裡面還有一個核心理念，院長請聽一下，就是美國提供軍事保護，貿易夥伴需要付出的代價包含：配合美國，讓貨幣升值，以換取美元貶值，然後購買低利率的超長期美國國債，來減輕美國的債務壓力。這聽起來很瘋狂，可是其實很符合川普覺得盟友應該為美國軍事保護買單，以及不喜歡美元太強的概念。","根據上面的內容以及相關的報導，商周也說，其實臺灣對美國來講可以說是夢幻客戶，有幾個條件臺灣都滿足，第一個，我們高度仰賴美國市場；第二個，需要美國的保護；第三個，也深怕美國視我們是匯率操縱國，所以也被認為我們在這個談判中很快會妥協。院長，在這部分也很巧，行政院5月1號的時候稱臺美完成首輪磋商，隔天5月2號匯率就大升值，因此根據前面所說的，我想大家最想問的就是，究竟我們在匯率上面是否跟美國有達成某種協議？"],["卓院長榮泰：5月1號由副院長所領軍的談判團，跟美方的協議談判過程當中，我再次重申，沒有涉及任何的匯率問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我知道，我有看你們這兩天的說法，基本上您跟楊金龍總裁還有賴清德總統都說沒有涉及到匯率，可是我從上述的幾個論證、幾個事件告訴你，其實很難讓民眾相信啦！因為這麼巧，就在這個時候臺幣的匯率暴升，不過我想追問，目前你們說沒有，請問未來是否會將匯率跟這個超長期的低利率美國國債當成談判籌碼之一，以換取低關稅以及美國提供的軍事保護？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前談判的內容當然我們不便對外說，我們有說明現在談判的內容就是在對等關稅……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你沒辦法講說是不是籌碼？"],["卓院長榮泰：對等關稅、非關稅貿易障礙、出口管制、經濟安全等等，這是這個。"],["廖委員偉翔：那也就是說，您不排除把這兩項當成是未來的籌碼之一？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個說法我早上說過，不能這麼武斷的說排除、不排除，還沒有發生的事情……"],["廖委員偉翔：還沒發生就是不排除，院長，其實應該就是這樣啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：就關稅跟非關稅貿易障礙、出國管制，還有經濟安全來討論。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我要提醒你，你剛剛這句話其實算是避重就輕。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，你不能這樣解讀。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為你剛剛說不能夠排除嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：我絕對沒有這樣的意思。"],["廖委員偉翔：其實簡單來講，你是說不能排除，好，沒關係。我想要跟院長說的是，在1985年的廣場協議之後，其實可以看到日本的下場，就是失落的30年，不管是經濟、房地產或者是產業外移，所以其實有這次的前車之鑑，你可以看到，美日談判的時候日本首相強硬地表示，不會為了協議犧牲日本的利益。我這裡要再請院長說明，因為你剛剛還是沒有辦法講清楚，我還是希望站在國家利益，不要一味地妥協、不要短視，應該為了我們國家長遠的利益著想，不要讓海湖莊園協議變成臺灣的廣場協議2.0，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個總統在聲明當中已經說過了，他會爭取國家的利益，他也不會放過任何一個產業。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，但是我跟你講，前後這樣子講起來，其實以上不管執政團隊有沒有談或者是有沒有把它變成是未來的籌碼之一，民眾有沒有相信……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我們在這裡要對國人做一個正面的宣示，就是談判的過程沒有匯率。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，你先聽我講完，我現在沒有在講這個，我現在要告訴你，不管到底有沒有，我也都相信你們講的話，但是現在的重點、事實擺在眼前的是，還沒變成籌碼之一，我們臺幣就已經迅速升值，所以我想要請教院長，在臺幣迅速升值跟關稅的雙夾擊之下，對於我國出口產業的短期衝擊和長期衝擊是什麼？請教院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：最近一週以來，臺幣強勁的升值，當然對我們的產業造成相當大的衝擊，現在包括央行，也從過去穩定貨幣的相關政策底下，我們持續地加強各種觀察。"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，所以你曉得短期衝擊是什麼嗎？您可以舉幾個例子嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說的是這個禮拜以來，從上個禮拜到現在。"],["廖委員偉翔：我是說針對匯率急速升值這件事情，照理說應該已經要評估了吧！好，沒關係，院長，你如果沒有辦法條列式地講出來，我跟你講有幾個衝擊。第一個，毛利率跟獲利縮水，這個很嚴重！部分的代工業和製造業毛利率「一夕轉負」，譬如本來是5%好了，迅速拉升了10%，它就虧錢了，這個單就虧錢了。甚至我們地方上有產業界的龍頭說，他一年出口已經被下訂了5,000個貨櫃，結果迅速升值，可能會虧爆，已經打到見骨。他本來不是出口美國，是歐洲市場，所以他本來沒有想到會這麼嚴重，在連匯率都變成這樣的情況之下，他基本上是被打到見骨，這是第一個跟院長報告的第一個短期衝擊。第二個是現金流跟財務壓力，第三個就是訂單的成本和採購延後，第四個是這些中小企業避險的成本跟他們要操作的難度拉高，大企業可能還可以，小企業就很辛苦。還有，同業競爭力跟市場地位，臺灣廠商在價格優勢上迅速被侵蝕，這五個是短期衝擊。","再來，長期衝擊，長期這樣子維持我們的匯率往上走，院長，我要告訴你的是：第一個，長期它的毛利跟獲利也會持續地壓縮。再來，我們國家的出口量跟訂單會縮減。再來就是我們生產的產地跟供應鏈要重組。最後一個是我們產業結構轉型的壓力。我剛剛問的問題顯示出，院長你們好像對於這個部分並沒有很詳細的評估，這讓我們的中小企業很擔心。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你這個非常具學術專業，但是我跟委員報告，央行長期對匯率的掌握，就是定期在做這樣的評估，只是針對這幾天以來的快速上漲，央行昨天已經對外宣布了它的說法。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我再進一步問您，對於勞工的評估呢？對勞工權益的衝擊呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，我們……"],["廖委員偉翔：因為剛剛講的是產業的部分，接下來最重要、我們最關心的，也就是我們的勞工。"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，我們產業支持不下去的時候，勞工失業的狀況就可能會發生。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，所以我們其實現在很擔心這個，我剛剛也苦口婆心在問的就是，看到目前為止，關稅之外，對於匯率的雙重夾擊，行政院好像並沒有去做一個很詳盡的評估。"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛已經說了。"],["廖委員偉翔：這個是讓我們很擔心的。"],["卓院長榮泰：央行長期以來就定期在做這些評估，你又說沒有評估，這不對啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：院長，我跟你報告，其實這個題目上周二牛煦庭委員也問了，他問你們關稅以外，有沒有做匯率衝擊的評估，其實你們那時候的回答就是沒有，過了一個禮拜之後也是這樣！"],["卓院長榮泰：我的回答一樣，央行都有定期來報告相關的內容。昨天央行已經對外說了……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，我們不吵這個，我們要點出嚴重性，所以想要問你，其實現在美國市場，簡單來講，我們衝擊很大，本來美國的關稅是第一個衝擊，再來就是匯率提升衝擊出口商等等，然後是國人的就業問題，還有一些所謂的上市公司股利，有一些股民的權益也可能會受到影響。我上次在質詢的時候也說，這一次4,100億的預算裡面，針對農工產業的補助是930億，我認為遠遠不夠，而對於勞權的部分則是150億。針對這個部分，我想要請院長，剛剛講到衝擊評估，第一個、是不是可以請院長儘速將關於關稅以及匯率雙重夾擊之下的不同情境，有個比較嚴謹的評估報告交給本席？包含有沒有辦法維穩在1比30左右，如果掉到1比20或是1比25會發生什麼事情，以及受衝擊的產業規模跟勞工人數，這是我們現在關心的事情，要拜託院長。另外，外界也普遍認為新臺幣維持在1比30，是心理跟經濟的雙重關卡，如果守不住的話，恐怕不只是無薪假的問題，也可能引發大規模的失業。以中部的關鍵產業──工具機來講，2024年工具機產業產值已經比2014年下滑了65%，可是今年又遇到這樣的匯率升值很可能會團滅，很擔心會有大量的倒閉潮。張忠謀董事長曾經說過，新臺幣兌美元如果升值1%，他們的營業利益率就會減少0.4%，甚至有一些關於上市櫃公司的評估指出，可能縮減7.5%。我講的這些詳細數據是一些金融行業估出來的，我們最擔心的就是最終無薪假跟裁員潮來臨。因為你們上次是編930億，支持勞工150億，可是同時拿了1,500億來做所謂的韌性，但是我們在看的時候認為，跟所謂的關稅、匯率及民生的關連不大，我覺得這1,500億是不是應該回歸公務總預算裡面，把這1,500億立即注入跟勞工、產業有關的急迫需求？本席的具體建議包含勞工的部分，勞動部長也上來了，其實我很擔心的是這個。我具體建議的是，我們希望勞工權益在這4,100億裡面的比例可以加高，包含著什麼？包含產業的部分就是金融支持，因為現在已經不只是對美出口基期的問題，你上次說是10%基期的問題，但現在已經不只是這個部分，而是全部出口產業，所以這部分也要滾動調整，要請院長回去研議，金融支持的部分要加大。第二個、勞動的部分，我們希望可以增加勞工權益，就是安心即時上工。這個東西可以請部長……因為過去在疫情期間是有這樣子的支持，但現在還有一定的程序要走，由於它不是常態性的，所以這個部分是不是可以請院長和部長回去儘速研議？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟廖委員說明，其實過去有的相關就業工具，我們都已經盤點，也都已經做相關的準備了，可是每一個工具要實施，適合的時間點可能不同，所以現在比較要先處理的事情是關於減班休息，企業如果發生減班休息，我們如何因應來支持勞工。剛剛廖委員說的安心即時上工，我們其實也做了相關的盤點，可是這部分是要創造比較多公部門的就業機會來容納失業勞工。"],["廖委員偉翔：是啊！"],["洪部長申翰：這個部分我們已經做相關的盤點了，可是實施的時間點可能會跟……"],["廖委員偉翔：請問你們現在盤點的時程跟規模有沒有反映到即將可能來臨的，這是第一件事。"],["洪部長申翰：我們現在的工具都已經做了盤點，現在是來看哪一個工具不同的、適合的時間點。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，時間有限。我現在提出這兩個具體的要求，請您回去研議這兩件事。第二個是長年有的，請你擴大它的人數和規模，再請你們提供一份報告給本席辦公室。"],["洪部長申翰：可以，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員的質詢，麻煩請行政院將廖委員索取的資料交給廖偉翔委員辦公室。謝謝卓院長，謝謝勞動部長備詢。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（16時39分）","繼續開會（16時45分）"],["主席：報告院會，我們繼續開會。","接下來請陳菁徽委員質詢，林淑芬委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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邀請勞動部部長麻煩請勞動部長備詢麻煩院長"},{"start":25.93,"end":38.305,"text":"副長好你有在立法院在詢答中親口承認會啟動就業安定基金追回程序現在已經三個月過去了審計部認證被濫用的7200"},{"start":48.241,"end":61.713,"text":"7萬224萬你說會追回現在變成要縣行政院爭取未來年度的公務預算來補你的洞請教部長你還認得自己嗎"},{"start":63.455,"end":87.971,"text":"這就是你要追回的方法嗎你現在不遠而直接就讓全民買單嗎你連在立院執行答應的都可以翻臉不認賬你這不是在惡整勞工嗎在欺騙企業嗎你現在又用什麼auto來讓民眾相信你會追責呢"},{"start":90.123,"end":93.766,"text":"我會按審計部的要求來啟動追回的程序我希望你講重點不要講重點你怎麼樣去做麥委員這就是重點"},{"start":110.455,"end":134.772,"text":"我說了 我從頭到尾我們都是說 已經三個月了所以說 三個月前跟三個月後我都是說 你在 就是你做的事情在二診嗎我要講重點啦 你要讓我講重點啦好 重點 重點是 我一直以來都是說我會按照審計部的要求來啟動追回的程序"},{"start":136.385,"end":162.604,"text":"審計部在後來的這個認定的報告裡面很清楚的是跟我們說這是修正簡列是修正簡列所以後來我的回答我們基本上都是按照審計部的要求來說明我們會來啟動後續相關的程序後續相關的程序是要用我們公務預算來去補這個洞"},{"start":166.329,"end":171.117,"text":"是這樣子嗎?麥委員,審計部最後在審計的報告裡面是認定這是修正檢列"},{"start":172.458,"end":194.883,"text":"修正檢列的意思就是修正檢列的意思不是拿我們人民的血和錢所以說以後一件事情我們希望你真的是要講重點不要再去問問題的時候再講省紀部是認定修正檢列也就是說在他給我們的報告裡面"},{"start":195.783,"end":201.488,"text":"這些錢都花掉了 你說這樣子的審計部都認定了所以說有一些 我覺得你要換個位置 要換個腦袋但是問題不在職務 從頭到尾都是說我們會依照審計部的要求"},{"start":220.343,"end":247.851,"text":"你要去刮別人的鬍子之前先把你的鬍子刮乾淨先前要把這樣子的話我們的你的頭血不代表你的格局所以你有位子但是不不代表你的品格高漲你到處去宣傳你叫二座門的藍白二整勞工你才真正的二整勞工三個月了我們沒有看到你的你的成績"},{"start":248.971,"end":270.822,"text":"我們才看到你的到處來去說沒錢辦訊也沒錢管變勞檢人力結果呢你們拿錢拿救援基金去養婉君去辦演唱會更離譜的你們現在還打算不追回了還想想胖就拿我們政府的錢來給你"},{"start":272.503,"end":276.808,"text":"如果司法已經確認勞動部這個是亂花錢你要如何去追究你說已經改革上路了但是我請問你的改革是什麼到底是改什麼革"},{"start":292.898,"end":311.677,"text":"那你要不要讓我說明好 一分鐘好 第一個勞動部是一個行政機關我們必須按照審計的要求來進行後續的相關的程序這件事情從頭到尾我都是這樣子主張到目前為止我們都是按照審計的要求來進行後續的程序"},{"start":312.358,"end":328.943,"text":"第二個你剛跟我說相關的改革相關的改革已經開始啟動了勞動部在一月的時候就已經提出救安基金的三個面向跟六個策略的改革的計畫目前改革是現在進行式就追回的做法我也要跟委員說明委員你剛才說錯了"},{"start":331.179,"end":342.387,"text":"現在是審計部已經下了相關的認定但是司法的部分也就是檢調的部分確實還在做相關的偵辦所以我才問你說如何去罪懥吧不要說就一直在說審計部我希望我們這邊不要再去"},{"start":351.913,"end":372.323,"text":"沒錯 但是你問題 你的改革我們沒有看到 已經三個月了都聽你的講而已啦 很厲害喔所以我們是一樣 你怎麼去追究 真正我們要的你要的 你是真的你說的 你現在你就是追究怎麼去追款我們要的具體的 好不好如果你說有了 你就是要準備怎麼樣去幫我們不是要"},{"start":377.666,"end":382.332,"text":"看到你的你不追回 你還要用說準備用我們人民的血汗錢幫你去還債這個就是你的改革 你的改革 話又很大聲但是呢 實際 這是在報復讓人民誰進發"},{"start":396.628,"end":420.002,"text":"現在我希望你要提出最具體的立即追回不准規定還有嚴懲的到底部長你能做到嗎就是要兌現你對人民的承諾所以你現在你能做到嗎不用再去說審計部你能不能做到把這筆錢追回才是你要承諾的事情"},{"start":420.922,"end":438.13,"text":"這七千多萬就是來自審計部的報告所以我們從頭到尾都按照審計部不是要做報告你如何來去追回不是用我們人民的血汗錢來拔你那些坑不是這樣子的所以我們希望我們來的是解決問題不是來給你欺騙別人啦我以為你說 說得最難傳播但是要沒辦法"},{"start":447.955,"end":468.785,"text":"我們要的是實質所以說這個部分我們希望的是實質承諾對我們人民要追回這個錢不是要去說省支部要說什麼錢這個部分你要真正的對人民承諾不用再跟我解釋第二個我要請問你的妳在質詢我妳叫我不要跟妳解釋"},{"start":469.445,"end":497.23,"text":"你不用跟我解釋 你要對人民交代所以你說這題你要對人民交代是追回不要再去說那些對個人責任的部分我們會配合檢調配合司法來做個人責任的追究甚至是追討我希望你要去真實的我不用跟你解釋我時間有限你已經在浪費我的時間了你沒有回答真正的問題你沒辦法去承諾你就直接說承諾就好了回答那麼多幹嘛你浪費我的時間 你要把時間"},{"start":497.89,"end":500.393,"text":"我們都按照審計部的相關的要求辦理我要問第二題了"},{"start":515.148,"end":535.723,"text":"他沒有對我承諾所以他浪費我時間可以停止我時間沒有他要賠我時間好 近期我們喬生在台灣流血的制度所以要怎麼樣去包裝成為以補我們勞動力的缺口的替代品就像說不開放移工的李樹葉"},{"start":537.125,"end":544.535,"text":"現在呢卻已經我們的僑生還有說我們東南亞的外籍實習生以實習的名義實際上卻變成就是補充我們臺灣勞動力的短缺的救急稻草"},{"start":552.385,"end":561.972,"text":"所以當這些僑生還有外籍生實際成為勞動力的時候我們產生的實習與工作邊緣模糊的情況勞動部有跟我們僑委會共同去針對這些實習生還有場域的監督查訪還有有沒有明確實習生與工作的界邊"},{"start":581.226,"end":592.404,"text":"界限的範疇內回答一下關於僑生的部分主管機關是教育部跟僑委會"},{"start":596.397,"end":603.564,"text":"我問你的不是說你跟他怎麼樣我跟你的是問你的說你們的監督犬現在是實習生實習生變成是一個就是廉價的勞動所以我們要問你的是在這樣子的實習的時候我們沒有開放移工但是呢在服務業的時候勞動部是否就是"},{"start":621.241,"end":637.559,"text":"默認就是企業以僑生實習的方式就是變相的雇用如何確保這些實習生的有沒有符合勞動的基準法中的用於技術生的規範與權益我問了他們的工作的權益"},{"start":642.721,"end":660.195,"text":"因為喬生他是一個學生的身份學生的身份他做實習實習的部分確實主管機關是教育部然後喬也會來協助那如果喬生畢業了以後他要留台工作這個部分就會是勞動部主管的部分"},{"start":661.343,"end":673.466,"text":"我問東你講西所以說你完全你不是專業嗎我問的是說現在的實習生實習生就是就是現在他們在這邊做的時候業者違法批用實習生申請了管道或者他的保障"},{"start":680.848,"end":698.144,"text":"有沒有對他們有幫助事實他來讀書是一回事但是他既在實習在工作的時候是你在管啥的所以說在關你這個你都沒有去管事實習的部分還是教育部在主管的"},{"start":699.022,"end":715.193,"text":"在勞動基準中基準法中他使用技術生來的就放回來去用的權利他還是在勞勞這邊的你不用再去講那個那個不是他讀書的是教育不管"},{"start":716.333,"end":721.836,"text":"僑生是他來讀書的管 這工作是你管的很簡單的事情 你就回答五三三所以說我們希望這個比例 還有他的實習的時數產學合一 他們已經簽了 但是實習的時數還有實習的品質 或者真的是他的實習嗎還是就是變成打工"},{"start":740.387,"end":745.43,"text":"我們要的是說你今天要去讀書要真正的讀書還是來做工作我們希望說在工作他是實習但是會不會變成是廉價的勞工所以我們希望要爭取人才留在台灣所以希望說目前我們的學生在台灣有保障所以才要去問你但是你一問三不知但是再來我再問你的這個不知道你懂不懂"},{"start":769.882,"end":786.196,"text":"這個我沒有疑問三不知我還是要再說明一次學生的實習這部分不是勞動部主管的沒有勞動部主管是你在主管的因為他一定要有工作時數時數的時候就是你在管的"},{"start":786.716,"end":796.05,"text":"所以呢他是有打工的時候是你在管的所以我才問你有沒有管到就完全你沒有在管所以你不知道所以第二個我在問你的是說我們就強調說我們應該爭取人才留在台灣"},{"start":801.818,"end":818.972,"text":"但是目前我們僑生畢業後呢留在台灣找工作一年可以延長到兩年但是呢在這個工作時間找工作的時間他們完全不能做任何的工作所以對他們來說是不是可以放寬"},{"start":822.214,"end":843.222,"text":"讓這個喬生他在找工作畢業後這兩年是不是有一些他可以去接案就是比較特定的類別就是自媒體啊 社企啊 文創啊有沒有考慮放寬讓這個喬生在找工作的時間他有接這樣子的案不能說我找工作兩年沒辦法做什麼"},{"start":854.612,"end":867.326,"text":"如果喬生已經畢業了他找工作的階段我們確實有在思考怎麼樣擴大喬生可以留在台灣工作的可能性包括其實讓他相關的工作的許可能夠放得更寬鬆"},{"start":868.607,"end":893.022,"text":"那這部分我們確實有在這個相關的政策有在研議中但是我這邊指的是喬森已經畢業以後他進入到找工作的這個階段但是實習的部分還是不在我說的範圍裡那我就問東流一些喔我知道說范寬斯說他的資本額是企業的我問的是這兩年在找工作的時間他規定上是不能去工作"},{"start":893.522,"end":898.626,"text":"但是在這兩年什麼都不能做,他在找工作很辛苦,什麼都不能做,是不是放寬讓他們有可以做一些接單的或者是說自媒體的設計的文創的,所以說考慮就是特定類別,跟特殊的知道嗎,不是說什麼都可以做,"},{"start":915.62,"end":942.981,"text":"所以呢 但我說的就是關於相關的工作許可的放寬我講的是畢業後放寬跟他這兩年不一樣不一樣啦 你真的跳沒有啦所以呢 你也不知道啦所以說 這是我們現在要跟你我們希望你要去瞭解我們喬森也是老闆這邊的實施人員好"},{"start":949.295,"end":950.76,"text":"謝謝麥議員 麥議員所取的資料麻煩請勞動部會後之後再送給"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":409,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（16時7分）院長好。有請勞動部部長。"],["主席：麻煩請勞動部長備詢。"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好。你有在立法院詢答中親口承認會啟動就業安定基金追回程序，現在已經三個月過去了，審計部認證被濫用的7,224萬，你說會追回，現在卻變成要向行政院爭取未來年度的公務預算來補你的洞，請教部長，你還認得自己嗎？這就是你要追回的方法嗎？你現在就不演了，直接就讓全民買單嗎？你連在立院質詢答應的都可以翻臉不認帳，你這不是在惡整勞工嗎？在欺騙企業嗎？你現在又用什麼「奧步」來讓民眾相信你會追責呢？"],["洪部長申翰：跟麥委員說明，第一個，這不是「奧步」，這也沒有欺騙，我講得很清楚，我從頭到尾都是說我會按審計部的要求啟動追回的程序，審計部……"],["麥委員玉珍：我希望你講重點，你怎麼樣去做？"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，這就是重點！我說了，從頭到尾我們都是說會按……"],["麥委員玉珍：已經三個月了，從你答應到現在已經三個月了……"],["洪部長申翰：三個月前跟三個月後，我都是說……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你做的事情就是在惡整嗎？就是在欺騙企業嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，我要講重點，你要讓我講重點啦！"],["麥委員玉珍：好，重點，30秒。"],["洪部長申翰：重點是一直以來，我都是說會按照審計部的要求來啟動追回的程序，審計部在後來的認定報告裡面很清楚的跟我們說這是修正減列，是修正減列，所以後來我們基本上都是按照審計部的要求，說明我們會啟動後續相關的程序。"],["麥委員玉珍：後續相關的程序是要用公務預算來補這個洞，是這樣子嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，審計部最後在審計報告裡面是認定這是修正減列，修正減列的意思，就是它認為這是核屬公務預算的範圍……"],["麥委員玉珍：修正減列的意思，不是拿我們人民的血汗錢……"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，你沒有了解修正減列的意思。"],["麥委員玉珍：某些事情我們希望你真的要講重點，不要每個人問你，你就說……"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，我現在講的就是重點，審計部是認定修正減列，也就是在它給我們的報告裡面，包括這一段時間的過程，很清楚的說這是可以核屬公務預算的支用範圍。"],["麥委員玉珍：這些錢都花掉了，你說審計部都認定了，所以有一些……我覺得你換了位置要換個腦袋，但問題不在職務……"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，我從頭到尾都是說我們會依照審計部的要求……"],["麥委員玉珍：而是在思維，你現在的思維，要去刮別人鬍子之前，先把你的鬍子刮乾淨，你的頭銜不代表你的格局，你有位置，但不代表你的品格高尚，你到處宣傳說我們藍白惡整勞工，你才是真正惡整勞工，三個月了，我們沒有看到你的成績……"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，我要再說明一次……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們只有看到你到處說沒錢辦訓，也沒錢管編勞檢人力，結果呢？你們拿就安基金去養網軍、去辦演唱會！更離譜的是，你們現在還打算不追回，挖空心思想要拿政府的錢來補洞，你真的很會算、很厲害！如果司法確認勞動部這個是亂花錢，你要如何追究？你說改革已經上路了，但是請問你的改革是什麼？到底是改什麼革？"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，你要不要讓我說明？"],["麥委員玉珍：好，1分鐘。"],["洪部長申翰：好，第一個，勞動部是一個行政機關，我們必須按照審計的要求進行後續相關程序，這件事情從頭到尾我都是這樣主張，到目前為止，我們也都是按照審計的要求進行後續程序。第二個，你剛剛問我相關的改革，相關的改革已經開始啟動了，勞動部在1月的時候，就已經提出就安基金三個面向和六個策略的改革計畫，目前改革是現在進行式。就追回的作法，我也要跟委員說明，委員你剛剛說錯了，現在是審計部已經下了相關認定，但是司法的部分，也就是檢調的部分，確實還在偵辦中……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我才問你要如何去追究嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：對於個人責任的部分……"],["麥委員玉珍：不要一直說審計部……"],["洪部長申翰：我們會配合……"],["麥委員玉珍：我希望你們這邊不要再……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，這七千多萬就是審計部報告出來的啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯，問題是你的改革我們沒有看到，已經三個月了，都只是聽你在說而已，很厲害……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，勞動部的就安基金改革方案……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們希望你要真正去追究我們要的……"],["洪部長申翰：現在已經上路了。"],["麥委員玉珍：就是你現在到底要怎麼追究、怎麼追款，我們要的是具體作為，好不好？如果你現在有方法，就是準備要怎麼幫我們……"],["洪部長申翰：現在檢調正在偵辦，我們會配合檢調來做個人責任的追究。"],["麥委員玉珍：而不是我們看到的，你不追回，還準備用人民的血汗錢幫你還債，這個就是你的改革嗎？你的改革喊得很大聲，但是實際是發布……"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，我們是具體的提出就安基金的改革方案。"],["麥委員玉珍：就是讓人民「捶心肝」，現在我們希望你要提出最具體的作法：立即追回，不准歸墊，還有嚴懲到底。部長能做到嗎？就是要兌現你對人民的承諾，你現在能做到嗎？不用再去說審計部，你能不能做到把這筆錢追回來？這才是你要承諾的事情。"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，這七千多萬就是來自審計部的報告，我們從頭到尾都按照審計部所列出來的事情……"],["麥委員玉珍：不是要做報告，而是你要如何追回，不是用我們人民的血汗錢來補你的洞，不是這樣子的。我們來是希望能解決問題，不是來讓你起乩、擲筊的。就算你講到口沫橫飛，但是要做卻什麼辦法都沒有，我們要的是實質，對於這個部分，我們希望你能實質承諾為人民追回這個錢，而不是去說審計部或說要什麼錢，這個部分你要真正地對人民承諾，不用跟我解釋。第二個，我要請問你的……"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，你在質詢我，卻又要我不要跟你解釋？"],["麥委員玉珍：你不用跟我解釋，你要給人民交代。"],["洪部長申翰：你質詢我，然後要我不要跟你解釋。"],["麥委員玉珍：這一題你要給人民交代的是追回，而不是再去說那一些了。"],["洪部長申翰：對於個人責任的部分，我們會配合檢調、配合司法做個人責任的追究，甚至是追討。"],["麥委員玉珍：我希望你要去做真實的，我不用跟你解釋，我時間有限，你已經在浪費我的時間了，你沒有回答真正的問題，你沒有辦法承諾，你直接承諾就好了，回答那麼多幹嘛？你浪費我的時間，你要把時間賠給我。"],["洪部長申翰：你質詢我，然後叫我不要回答，不要跟你解釋？"],["麥委員玉珍：現在我不是要問那個，而是要問第二題了，我要你承諾的是追回，而不是講其他的，我現在要……"],["洪部長申翰：我們都按照審計部的相關要求辦理。"],["麥委員玉珍：主席，他現在在浪費我的時間，我要問第二題了，他沒有給我承諾，所以他浪費我的時間，可以停止我的時間嗎？不然，他要賠我的時間。","近期我們僑生在臺灣留學的制度，要怎麼包裝成為彌補我們勞動力缺口的替代品？就像不開放移工的旅宿業，現在卻引進僑生還有東南亞的外籍實習生，以實習的名義，實際上卻變成是在補充我們臺灣勞動力短缺的救急稻草。當這些僑生還有外籍生實際成為勞動力的時候，就產生了處於實習與工作邊緣的模糊情況。勞動部有無跟僑委會共同針對這些實習生進行場域的監督、查訪？還有有沒有明確實習與工作的界線和範疇？回答一下。"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，關於僑生的部分，主管機關是教育跟僑委會。"],["麥委員玉珍：我問你的不是你跟他怎麼樣，而是問你你們的監督權。現在是實習生變成廉價勞工，所以我要問你的是，在這樣實習的時候，雖然我們沒有開放移工，但是在服務業裡，勞動部是否默認企業以僑生實習的方式變相僱用他們？要如何確保這些實習生在工作時符合勞動基準法中對於技術生的規範與權益？我是在問他們工作的權益。"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，因為僑生是學生的身分，以學生的身分去實習，實習部分的主管機關確實是教育部，並由僑委會協助。如果僑生畢業以後要留臺工作，這才是勞動部主管的部分，所以……"],["麥委員玉珍：我問東你講西，你不是專業的嗎？我問的是現在的實習生，就是他們現在在這邊做實習生的時候，業者違法聘用實習生，所以他申請的管道，或者他的保障對他們有沒有幫助？他來讀書是一回事，但是他去實習在工作的時候卻是你在管轄的，關於這個你都不知道？"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，實習的部分還是教育部主管的。"],["麥委員玉珍：在勞動基準法中，他適用技術生的範圍與權利，他還是在勞保這邊的。"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，你還是搞錯主管機關了。"],["麥委員玉珍：你不要再去講那個，那個不是。讀書是歸教育部管，僑生來讀書是它要管，但工作是你管的，這是很簡單的事情，你回答得霧煞煞。所以我們希望這個比例還有他實習時數的問題要處理。產學合一，他們已經簽了，但是實習時數還有實習品質的問題要處理。他真的是在實習嗎？還是變成打工？我們要孩子來讀書是要他認真來讀書，還是要他來做工作的？我們希望他在工作是實習，但是會不會變成是廉價勞工？我們希望爭取人才留在臺灣，希望僑生在臺灣有保障，所以才要問你，但是你一問三不知。","再來，我再問你，這個我不知道你懂不懂……"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員，我知道，我沒有一問三不知，我還是要再說明一次……"],["麥委員玉珍：我在問你，沒有讓你說明……"],["洪部長申翰：僑生的實習這個部分不是勞動部主管的。"],["麥委員玉珍：不是勞動部主管？是你在主管的，因為他一定要有工作時數的時候，就是你在管的，所以他有打工的時候是你在管的，我才問你有沒有管到，你就完全沒有在管，所以你不知道。","第二個我在問你的是我們強調應該爭取人才留在臺灣，但是目前僑生畢業後留在臺灣找工作一年，可以延長到兩年，這個找工作的時間，他們完全不能做任何工作，所以對他們是不是可以放寬？讓僑生在畢業後找工作這兩年是不是可以接案，就是比較特定的類別，比如自媒體、設計、文創，有沒有考慮放寬？讓僑生在找工作的時間可以接這樣子的案，不能讓他找工作這兩年沒辦法工作，他餓肚子，就更沒辦法工作。你聽得懂嗎？還是說臺語你比較聽得懂？"],["洪部長申翰：跟麥委員報告，如果僑生已經畢業，他找工作的階段，我們確實有在思考怎麼樣擴大僑生可以留在臺灣工作的可能性，包括讓他相關的工作許可能夠放得更寬鬆，這個部分相關的政策確實在研議中，但是我這邊指的是僑生已經畢業，他進入到找工作的這個階段，實習的部分還是不在我說的範圍裡。"],["麥委員玉珍：我問東你就回西，我知道你的放寬是說企業雇主的資本額，但我問的是這兩年在找工作的時間，規定上，他不能去工作，但是在這兩年他要找工作很辛苦，什麼都不能做，所以是不是放寬，讓他們可以做一些接單的或者是自媒體的、設計的、文創的，考慮特定類別的、比較特殊的，知道嗎？不是什麼都可以做，所以……"],["洪部長申翰：麥委員說的就是關於相關工作許可的放寬……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是你講的是畢業後的放寬，跟他這兩年的不一樣……"],["洪部長申翰：我講的是畢業後。"],["麥委員玉珍：不一樣，你真的聽不懂，所以你也不知道。我們現在要跟你講，我們希望你要去了解，僑生也是勞工實習的一環，但是問你什麼，你都不知道，不知道的話，你要管什麼？這個也是最重要的，希望你要提出你怎麼樣去管理他們，書面給我，好嗎？"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員。","麥玉珍委員索取的資料麻煩請勞動部會後再送給麥委員辦公室。謝謝勞動部長備詢，謝謝。","再接下來，請廖偉翔委員質詢，之後我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴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詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1144201_00004"}}},{"id":"160973","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160973","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/db1f27f750492026e8e77f1e12424be55a34676b63038810a01ba0d305be83bc8053b69fbe3a03365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"15:51:31 - 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算撥了40億去用於三班輪值夜班的護理人員的直接獎勵我們更從健保的總額裡面花了41.56億總共加起來總共有80億左右我們在調整醫事人員的環境護理人員的環境"},{"start":162.18,"end":183.045,"text":"這些政策我都支持我也覺得方向是正確的但是院長部長我們的醫療院所裡面不是只有護理人員我們還有藥師我們還有檢驗師我們還有放射師大家都很辛苦院長你同意我的說法嘛對不對大家都很辛苦分工負責的狀況底下"},{"start":184.245,"end":205.722,"text":"對方向上也不是只有夜班的同仁辛苦其實白班夜班大夜班大家都很辛苦所以我們有沒有辦法其實我質詢了很多次我在財務會有質詢了很多次我有問財政部長說我們有沒有什麼樣的工具像我們在現行的中小企業發展條例當中我們有提供營業稅的租稅的優惠"},{"start":209.215,"end":231.896,"text":"院長 卓院長我們有提供營業稅的出稅優惠給企業但是我們的醫療院所我們的診所它不是營利單位所以它沒有機會減稅這就是我今天的大標我覺得公私合力我們要給足夠的誘因讓這些診所雖然那個誘因可能出稅優惠只有一點點"},{"start":233.658,"end":261.855,"text":"但是這個是我們政府給的蘿蔔我們希望透過這個蘿蔔可以讓他們也給藥師也好 給檢驗師也好更多的加薪的機會所以這個政策我們也希望部長可以折騰橫向部會的聯繫給邱部長更多的工具可以去做這些處理 出稅優惠的處理部長可不可以 院長可不可以 部長可不可以"},{"start":263.645,"end":274.631,"text":"院長你先講好了我們對於醫院是直接給獎勵的我知道院長因為我今天議題很多所以你直接告訴我就說工具上輸送約會三班負面品達到標準的醫院直接給獎勵這些獎勵他就可以放到白班的家家企或是一些其他的醫療人員"},{"start":286.016,"end":301.073,"text":"這個我都知道但是不是只有護理人員醫院裡面還有檢驗室醫藥師所以我剛才講的是我們能不能透過醫管法的修法我們用什麼樣的方式給診所也好因為它不是營利事業所的它不是營業所所以它沒有機會從"},{"start":303.035,"end":331.086,"text":"租稅優惠上面去做處理所以我覺得要從修法的方向去做處理所以是不是可以責成部長去做後續法上面的去調整我也問過財政部部長他也同意但是你必須啟動這樣的政策才有機會在租稅優惠的上面去免稅譬如說診所他是租的那怎麼樣因為他給員工加薪他給護理人員加薪他給藥師加薪所以我們給他租稅上的優惠"},{"start":333.267,"end":357.509,"text":"人力準備的方案我們是今年才實施去年才實施應該給他到各醫院去執行一段時間看看如果效果很好我們可以加碼如果還有需要補強法治化的過程我們再來檢討部長你很清楚問題點在哪裡診所你沒有給他的工具他怎麼去加薪所以我覺得可以去研議"},{"start":358.697,"end":387.033,"text":"跟委員報告那這一年來我們的政府真的挹注了很多的經費到我們醫療院所而且非常期待是給我們所有的醫事人員包括診所也要吧我們監測它是不是有確實到我們醫事人員的薪資這是我們一直在努力的那另外在稅務的部分我想這是多年來一直在努力的事情那我們也會尊重醫事團體"},{"start":387.973,"end":407.288,"text":"的爭取我們來協助做合理的處理這樣子好謝謝部長因為我今天時間很有限我已經問了很多次我只是給你足夠的工具我希望所有醫事人員都可以加薪不是只有在醫院在醫療診所裡面我只是提供你這樣的政策跟方向你可以去做處理我是善意的提醒"},{"start":408.408,"end":431.957,"text":"來第二個就是我們長期關注的疫苗處置費部長你長期也都去參加各式各樣的學會我們也都承諾他們要提出相關的問題我們希望健康台灣不是只有賴總統的淪為口號那包括在106年的時候你我都是在當立法委員的時候我們在衛黃委員會都爭取了包括常規疫苗處置費的接種"},{"start":433.786,"end":449.826,"text":"一歲以下後來我們爭取到106年我們爭取到100塊那後續包括107年我們就國小前的接種我們都達到爭取到那個補助費所有的都可以達到100塊就是1到7歲疫苗的接種我們都100塊的儲置費但是我們看一下表格"},{"start":453.55,"end":468.497,"text":"我們鄰近幾個國家我們一劑是一百塊錢日本政府在給予疫苗處置費的補助的部分是每一劑一千一到一千六百五十塊韓國是五百到一千一劑是一千塊反觀我們是只有一劑一百塊"},{"start":469.697,"end":496.708,"text":"這個在醫事人員勞動的條件環境上我覺得我們政府是帶頭貶低醫療服務價值在我看來我比照世界各國我們最喜歡比照世界各國但是我們看光比這個疫苗處置費的部分我就認為我們的醫生為什麼都是血汗醫生他們都自己常在喊說我們的醫療價值被貶低了我想你是醫界出身你最清楚我在說什麼邱部長"},{"start":498.189,"end":522.327,"text":"所以我覺得應該要調高我們的疫苗處置費每一次參加學會的時候你在現場我也都給你錄音你也都同意我們要想辦法我們要找錢我們要想辦法所以我們要全面的提高全年齡的疫苗處置費在短期的部分我更認為特別要照顧小朋友的部分兒童的疫苗的接種部分我們也應該要去"},{"start":523.41,"end":532.495,"text":"提升 我們現在100塊而已嘛我們應該要去提升 至少在7歲以下我們應該要想辦法去提升 你有承諾過 我有聽到 我有在現場部長是的 謝委員喔 計100塊 韓國一計是1100我想疫苗處置會 當然剛剛提的這個數據可能在我們要釐清它有沒有包括"},{"start":546.377,"end":559.093,"text":"那個疫苗在裡面,那沒關係,但是的確要打一個給小孩子的疫苗真的很不簡單你把他打下去,那個護士還被小孩子踢個兩腳的都有都有"},{"start":562.833,"end":590.476,"text":"要判斷他能不能打這也是很醫療的專業所以你同不同意部長你現在承諾同不同意會研議在疫苗基金的一個裁員的情況之下我們來研議怎麼樣來做謝謝部長你的回應另外一個就是疫苗的配送的部分因為我們現在疫苗都是譬如說診所的醫生自己去領取那個冷鏈的過程有沒有達到那個標準"},{"start":590.836,"end":618.468,"text":"其實都有一些風險我覺得也應該由政府去建制冷鏈的配送機制有的天氣這麼熱有時候他帶一個什麼我不知道他是不是用保溫袋我不知道啦萬一如果那個配送的標準冷鏈的機制不一那都會影響疫苗的品質所以我覺得領取疫苗由我們政府來配送或用什麼樣的配送機制我覺得我們應該全國一致性的去做演繹部長你懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":619.502,"end":631.734,"text":"好 我想因為每一個診所的設備不太一樣的確有蠻多診所在冷鏈的處理上面會產生他過去拿的人的標準 保溫的標準都不一定會影響冷鏈的品質我們會請各縣市的衛生局"},{"start":636.859,"end":650.675,"text":"其實他們都很用心在幫忙我沒有鎖定他們的用心但是我覺得為了保障疫苗的品質我覺得更應該就是一個一致性還是要感謝各縣市衛生局其實在這方面都很努力在幫忙"},{"start":651.536,"end":672.944,"text":"部長因為我知道但是我提醒的是我們應該要有一個一致冷鏈的配送機制政府來要求甚至來補助來講一個SOP的標準我們疫苗送到各診所那個疫苗才不會配送過程當中有品質的影響打下去的效果就有差院長你應該聽懂我在講什麼啦"},{"start":674.52,"end":689.266,"text":"我覺得這個是我衷心的建議但我覺得這應該是一致性的去處理好最後幾點我長期要求的之前我在講帶狀性炮症疫苗院長跟部長在現場都答應我要去做評估"},{"start":690.441,"end":716.92,"text":"那到現在已經又過了半年你們已經上任一年了我要的是一個HTA的報告書今天不管我們有沒有錢可以做我們要做風險評估才能去編列預算我們才知道高風險群哪些我們應該有機會施打不要說連一個風險評估連一個研究報告書都做不出來那我們所有委員坐在這邊質詢就沒有意義所有的疫苗政策是重要的"},{"start":718.243,"end":744.512,"text":"我覺得一個評估報告書應該不困難院長你了解我的意思嗎我要一個帶狀性泡診的一個評估報告書今天不管我們能不能全國國人都施打還是我們給高風險群施打還是我們施打要多少錢我們總要一個評估報告我們才知道我們可不可以做我們要不要做我在這邊院長你應該有印象這不是我質詢第一次我長期關注這個議題"},{"start":745.652,"end":759.938,"text":"我現在不是要求說你給我錢我希望三個月裡面給我一個HTA的評估報告書我知道部長非常的努力但我覺得這件事情到現在我問了第二次了還沒有落實到所以部長可不可以提供我這個報告書"},{"start":761.058,"end":770.368,"text":"好的,報告委員,其實我們都有一個ACIP,就是疫苗評估小組,它會針對疫苗裡面,我們特別針對帶段炮準,我們特別來評估跟委員報告好,因為我只剩下兩分鐘時間,另外最後一個,我長期關注的,有時候失智症"},{"start":782.202,"end":789.669,"text":"院長部長現在失智症的人越來越多114年開始我們修改了失智症的照護計畫我們現在分兩種一種是社區型的失智據點另外一個是醫院內的全責失智據點這兩個失智據點其實我覺得做得非常的好"},{"start":798.137,"end":827.76,"text":"那我們現在衛福部把用差異化的照顧方式有一些可能他有一些症狀的我們就把他移到醫院的全職機關去做照護這件事情方向是對的我個人也肯定但是這會變成說我們現在社區失智據點的照顧我們本來是獲得補助是有十個人我們才能補助偏向我們是五個人那我們有一些症狀發生的時候我們現在移到醫院去我是支持的"},{"start":828.2,"end":838.803,"text":"但是現在就變成社區沒有補助那很多人就做不下去就不願意做院長 部長我要提的是高齡化社會之後我覺得"},{"start":839.409,"end":863.339,"text":"失智症的人有可能越來越多這對年輕人來說也是一個負擔我不希望因為現在已經有的10個人有的一個BPSD的照顧據點因為我們標準是10個人才補助這個據點因為有一些我們標準移到有一些項目的標準我們移到醫院去那他只剩下8個人7個人他就做不下去他就不做了"},{"start":864.69,"end":891.235,"text":"那當然我覺得這件事情是可惜的因為有一些已經有一些前兆的人他本身就在社區據點已經我們在訓練教育避免他狀況惡化所以這件事情我覺得是不是在重新再研議一下補助的標準可不可以好 我想施治政如果施治的你答應了就好了啦 部長院長這個很簡單啦 這個施治政我們來研議"},{"start":895.938,"end":906.051,"text":"一個機構如果不是很大十個人要照顧就已經很困難了我們覺得我們應該從這觀點來看是不是需要把這個徹底來檢討一下真的照顧需要照顧的人"},{"start":906.67,"end":934.562,"text":"就是譬如說八個人你也可以去照顧因為也真的是很辛苦我們高齡化是好我最後一件關稅三二十秒這個議題很重要所以我們這次在關稅的談判當中其實我關注的是美方其實一直關注的一件事情我們沒有提到的我們美國代表相關其實有提到我們健保的核價制度我們健保核價制度美國其實一直在關注未來我們會不會因為談判去調整我們未來健保制度談判的方法跟方式你直接回應我部長"},{"start":956.83,"end":958.331,"text":"謝謝李燕秀委員的質詢謝謝左院長 衛福部長備詢 謝謝"},{"start":962.407,"end":973.199,"text":"委員會登記第九位楊耀偉委員之諮詢書面提出請行政院書面打覆並列入紀錄刊登公報再接下來請麥玉珍委員諮詢廖偉祥委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":326,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（15時51分）謝謝院長，是不是可以邀請卓院長以及邱部長？"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、衛福部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：李委員好。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：院長、部長好。即將就任滿一年，我也需要好好盤點就任一年，無論是賴總統過去在選舉的政策也好，或是過去我在衛環委員會或是我們在同一個質詢台關注的重要政策議題，我們到底落實了多少？院長，你同不同意我今天的大標──「公私協力，改善我們醫療勞動的環境需要公私共同來協力」，你同不同意我的大標？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該是這樣做的。"],["李委員彥秀：對，沒錯嘛？譬如我們幫軍公教加薪，我們另外一個用意是希望民間老闆可以呼應我們的政策也幫民間的勞工加薪，對不對？我們有足夠的誘因給他們，例如有一些獎勵政策，或許他們就有更多的誘因可以去加薪，所以也感謝院長同意這樣的大原則跟方向。","部長，我們現在正在進行特管法的修法，我們強調要幫醫事人員加薪，其中我們要求醫院要幫醫事人員加薪，從基本薪資加到基本薪資的2倍；診所的部分，我們要求要幫醫事人員，希望能夠達到基本薪資的1.5倍，這個政策當然在醫界有引起不同的反應。","我們賴總統常在喊健康台灣，健康台灣絕對不是只有總統在總統府裡面開幾次的會議，會議之後我們怎樣利用政府有的工具跟政策去做更多落實，這才是總統開會的主要的目的，對不對？在方向上，去年也好，今年也好，我們利用醫事人員的勞動條件，從公務預算撥了40億用於三班輪值夜班護理人員的直接獎勵，我們更從健保的總額裡面花了41.56億，總共加起來有80億左右，我們在調整護理人員的環境，這些政策我都支持，我也覺得方向是正確的，但是院長、部長，醫療院所裡面不是只有護理人員，還有藥師、檢驗師、放射師，大家都很辛苦，院長，你同意我的說法，對不對？大家都很辛苦。"],["卓院長榮泰：分工負責的狀況底下，對。"],["李委員彥秀：方向上，也不是只有夜班的同仁辛苦，其實白班、夜班、大夜班大家都很辛苦，其實我在財委會也質詢了很多次，我有問財政部長，我們有沒有什麼樣的工具？像我們在現行的中小企業發展條例當中，有提供營業稅的租稅優惠，院長、卓院長，我們有提供營業稅的租稅優惠給企業，但我們的醫療院所、診所不是營利單位，所以它沒有機會減稅。這就是我今天的大標題，我覺得公私合力，我們要給足夠的誘因，雖然那個誘因可能租稅優惠只有一點點，但這是政府給的蘿蔔，我們希望透過這個蘿蔔給他們，也給藥師也好、給檢驗師也好，有更多的加薪機會。這個政策我們也希望部長責成橫向部會的聯繫，給邱部長更多工具可以去做這些租稅優惠的處理。院長可不可以？部長可不可以？你們兩個，院長先說好了。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們對於醫院是直接給獎勵的，比方對於……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，院長，因為我今天的議題很多，所以你直接告訴我……"],["卓院長榮泰：直接給獎勵。"],["李委員彥秀：就是工具上，租稅優惠……"],["卓院長榮泰：夜班護理師直接給獎勵，三班護病比達到標準的月底給獎勵。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，這我都肯定。"],["卓院長榮泰：這些獎勵就可以放到白班的加給或是一些其他的醫療人員。"],["李委員彥秀：這個我都知道，但不是只有護理人員，醫院裡面還有檢驗師、藥師。"],["卓院長榮泰：其他的也有……"],["李委員彥秀：所以我剛才講的是，能不能透過醫管法的修法？我們用什麼樣的方式給診所也好，因為它不是營所稅，沒有機會從租稅優惠上面去處理，所以我覺得要從修法的方向去處理。是不是可以責成部長後續做母法上面的調整？我也問過財政部部長，他也同意，但是你必須啟動這樣的政策，才有機會在租稅優惠上面免稅。譬如診所是租的，那要怎麼樣，因為它給員工加薪、它給護理人員加薪、它給藥師加薪，所以我們給它租稅上的優惠，院長聽得懂嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：準備的方案，我們是去年才實施，應該給衛福部到各醫院去執行一段時間看看，如果效果很好我們可以加碼，如果還有其他需要補強法制化的過程，我們再檢討。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，你很清楚……"],["邱部長泰源：我想採取……"],["李委員彥秀：你很清楚問題點在哪裡，診所你沒有給它工具，它怎麼去加薪？所以我覺得可以研議。"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告，這一年來，政府真的挹注了很多經費到醫療院所，而且非常期待是給我們所有的醫事人員，而且……"],["李委員彥秀：對，包括診所也要。"],["邱部長泰源：我們監測是不是有確實到醫事人員的薪資，這是我們一直在努力的。另外在稅務部分，我想這是多年來一直在努力的事情，我們也會尊重醫事團體的爭取，我們來協助做合理的處理。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝部長。因為我今天的時間很有限，我已經問了很多次，我只是給你足夠的工具，我希望所有醫事人員都可以加薪，不是只有在醫院、在醫療診所裡面，我只是提供你這樣的政策跟方向，你可以去處理，我是善意提醒。","第二個就是我們長期關注的疫苗處置費。部長，你也長期參加各式各樣的學會，我們也都承諾，他們也提出相關的問題，我們希望賴總統的「健康台灣」不是只淪為口號。包括在106年你我都在當立法委員的時候，我們在衛環委員會都爭取了常規疫苗處置費的接種，1歲以下，後來106年，我們爭取到100塊。後續包括107年，就國小前的接種我們爭取到補助費所有的都可以達到100百塊，就是1到7歲疫苗接種我們都有100塊的處置費。","但是我們看一下表格，鄰近幾個國家，我們一劑是100塊錢；日本政府給予疫苗處置費的補助部分是每一劑1,100到1,650塊；韓國是500到1,000塊，一劑是1,000塊，反觀我們只是一劑100塊。在醫事人員的勞動條件環境上，我覺得我們政府是帶頭貶低醫療服務價值。我們最喜歡比照世界各國，但是我們光比疫苗處置費的部分，我就認為我們的醫生為什麼都是血汗醫生？他們自己都常在喊：我們的醫療價值被貶低了。你是醫界出身，你最清楚我在說什麼。邱部長，我覺得應該要調高我們的疫苗處置費。每次參加學會的時候，你在現場，我也都給你錄音，你都同意說要想辦法、要找錢，所以我們要全面提高全年齡的疫苗處置費，在短期的部分，我更認為特別是在照顧小朋友的部分，兒童的疫苗接種也應該提升，現在才100塊而已，我們應該要去提升，至少對7歲以下應該想辦法去提升，你有承諾過，我有聽到，因為我有在現場。部長？"],["邱部長泰源：是的，謝謝委員……"],["李委員彥秀：一劑100塊！韓國一劑是1,100！"],["邱部長泰源：有關疫苗處置費，剛剛提的這個數據，可能我們要釐清它有沒有包括疫苗在內，那沒關係，但是的確，要幫小孩子打疫苗真的很不簡單，把他打下去，護士還有被小孩子踢個兩腳的，很難……"],["李委員彥秀：都有、都有，對。"],["邱部長泰源：要判斷他能不能打也是醫療的專業，打了以後能不能……"],["李委員彥秀：所以你同不同意？部長，你只要承諾我同不同意！"],["邱部長泰源：我們會在疫苗基金的財源之下，來研議怎麼樣來做……"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝部長的回應。","另外一個就是疫苗配送的部分，因為現在疫苗都是診所的醫生自己去領取，冷鏈的過程有沒有達到標準其實都有一些風險，我覺得也應該由政府去建置冷鏈的配送機制。有時候天氣很熱，我不知道它是不是用保溫袋，萬一配送的標準、冷鏈的機制不一，都會影響疫苗的品質，所以我覺得，疫苗由政府來配送或者是採用什麼樣的配送機制，應該做全國一致性的研議。部長，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：因為每一個診所的設備不太一樣，的確有滿多診所在冷鏈的處理上面會產生很大的困擾。"],["李委員彥秀：光是去拿，那個拿的人的標準、擺放的標準都不一致，這都會影響冷鏈的品質！"],["邱部長泰源：這個部分我們會請各縣市的衛生局……其實他們都很用心在幫忙，我們會繼續加強。"],["李委員彥秀：我沒有否定他們的用心，但是我覺得為了保障疫苗的品質，更應該要有一致性的做法，我們政府應該建置……"],["邱部長泰源：這還是要感謝各縣市衛生局，其實在這方面他們都很努力在幫忙。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我知道，但我提醒的是，我們應該要有一個一致的冷鏈配送機制，由政府來要求，甚至來補助、來獎勵建立一個SOP，這樣疫苗送到各診所，才不會在配送過程當中對品質產生影響，造成打下去的效果就有差。"],["邱部長泰源：當然，這個……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，你應該聽懂我在講什麼啦！這是我衷心的建議，我覺得應該一致性地去處理。","最後幾點是我長期要求的，之前我在講帶狀疱疹疫苗，院長跟部長在現場都答應我要去做評估，現在又過了半年，你們已經上任一年了，我要的是一個HTA的報告書，今天不管我們有沒有錢可以做，都一定要做風險評估才能編列預算，我們才知道高風險群有哪些、是否有機會施打，不要連一個風險評估的研究報告書都做不出來，這樣我們所有委員在這邊質詢就沒有意義！我們的疫苗政策是重要的！我覺得一個評估報告書應該不困難！","院長，你瞭解我的意思嗎？我要一個帶狀疱疹疫苗的評估報告書！今天不管能不能全體國人都施打，還是給高風險群施打或者是施打要多少錢，我們總要有一個評估報告，才知道我們可不可以做、我們要不要做。","院長應該有印象，這不是我第一次對此提出質詢，而是我長期關注這個議題，而且我現在不是要求你給我錢，而是希望3個月內給我一個HTA的評估報告書。我知道部長非常努力，但是這件事情我已經問第二次了都還沒有落實，所以部長，可不可以提供我這個報告書？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。報告委員，其實我們有一個ACIP，就是疫苗評估小組，它會針對……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，但是這跟HTA的評估報告書是不一樣的！"],["邱部長泰源：針對帶狀疱疹，我們會來評估，再跟委員報告。"],["李委員彥秀：好，因為只剩下2分半鐘的空間，最後是我長期關注的失智症議題。院長、部長，現在罹患失智症的人越來越多，114年開始，我們修改了失智症的照護計畫，現在分兩種，一種是社區型的失智據點，另外一個是醫院內的權責失智據點，這兩種失智據點我覺得做得非常好，現在衛福部用差異化的照顧方式，可能他有一些症狀的，我們就把他移到醫院的權責機關去做照護，這件事情的方向是對的，我個人也肯定，但是這會變成我們現在社區失智據點的照顧，本來獲得補助是有十個人，我們才能補助，偏鄉則是五個人，有一些症狀發生的時候，現在是移到醫院去，這個我是支持的，但是現在就變成社區沒有補助，很多人就做不下去、就不願意做。院長、部長，我要提的是高齡化社會之後，我覺得失智症的人有可能越來越多，這對年輕人來說也是一個負擔，我不希望因為現在已經有的，十個人有的一個BPSD的照顧據點，我們的標準是十個人才補助這個據點，因為有一些項目的標準移到醫院去了，只剩下八個人、七個人，他就做不下去、他就不做了。當然我覺得這件事情是可惜的，因為有一部分已經有一些前兆的人，他本身就在社區據點，我們已經在訓練、教育，避免他狀況惡化，這件事情是不是重新再研議一下補助的標準，可不可以？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想失智症，如果失智的……"],["李委員彥秀：你答應我就好了啦！部長、院長，這個很簡單啦，失智症……"],["邱部長泰源：我們來研議。"],["李委員彥秀：可以喔？"],["卓院長榮泰：一個機構如果不是很大，十個人要照顧就已經很困難了，我們覺得我們應該從這觀點來看，是不是需要把這個澈底檢討一下，真正照顧需要照顧的人。"],["李委員彥秀：就是八個人，你也可以去照顧，因為也真的是很辛苦，我們高齡化社會。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，很困難。"],["李委員彥秀：好，我最後一件事，雖然時間只剩下20秒，這個議題很重要。這次在關稅談判當中，其實我關注的是美方一直關注的一件事情，而我們沒有提到的，美國代表的項目其實有提到我們健保的核價制度，美國其實一直在關注我們健保核價制度，我們會不會因為談判而去調整未來健保制度談判的方法跟方式，你直接回應我，部長，你有沒有想到這件事情？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在談判的過程當中，已經接觸過的談判，沒有談到相關的議題。"],["李委員彥秀：未來也不會改變嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：未來的事情是經談判，持續進行下去的。"],["李委員彥秀：所以沒有辦法承諾我？院長，那麼我就提醒你，這個未來對新藥、對健保核價制度會造成非常大的影響，以上，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們會注意，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會注意。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、衛福部長的備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，登記第9位楊曜委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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一千個家庭"},{"start":68.7,"end":94.002,"text":"一千個家庭這個比較難這樣說沒有查資料他說是32的acre也就是說英畝如果換成甲的話是3.35甲如果我們再這樣算如果以後我們要增加那麼多的關電我們以後要設在哪裡你們想過我們大概以後的maximum要到哪一個多少個公畝還是多少個甲的一個關電設施"},{"start":95.97,"end":117.966,"text":"要到幾萬公頃的確如果要大的話以後原住民地區可能會越來越多所以我們就討論到原基法的第21條就是說政府或私人與原住民土地或部落及周邊一定範圍內的公有土地從事土地開發資源利用生態保育及學術研究因諮商必取的原住民族或部落同意或參與"},{"start":119.187,"end":134.404,"text":"那利益有源民族應該可以共同來分享那現在呢就是公有土地的這個部分跟私有土地這個部分是最受爭議的因為為了業者為了規避很多的一些法令他就是去找了私有地所以在我們"},{"start":135.598,"end":151.525,"text":"那個台東的海端鄉的管理員就拉了白布條說這個私人土地是1.5公頃可是縣政府後來就說他是符合所謂的環保的環評那我是希望部長這邊在環評的部分能不能好好把關"},{"start":152.766,"end":181.705,"text":"報告委員因為目前是針對於山坡地超過15公頃我們現在是訂單環評但是關於原民關切的部分其實我們環評裡面如果大家有意見的話我們可以列入考慮在裡面未來環評來進行修正不過基本上這個還是要跟原住民基本法裡面的諮商的部分因為這個是兩個平行的時空所以我這次我今年有提出一個修法就是說希望私有土地能夠部落統一"},{"start":182.626,"end":201.533,"text":"至少住在這個土地的原住民能夠知道或者是同意這件事情這樣會阻力會比較少可以嗎這個就是可能要在原住民基本法裡面來討論這個東西那我們環評的部分的話我們可以考慮來例如說原民部落這個部分多大的面積要來環評這個部分我們也可以來考慮這個來做這些規劃"},{"start":204.31,"end":218.104,"text":"就風力發電的部分我剛看了就是大概今年的三月就是造成台東縣很多我們無論是縣長議長或者是立委他們都強烈的反對說要在我們東海岸設置風電那部長你的態度呢"},{"start":219.797,"end":242.054,"text":"報告委員因為今年我們環評委員審到好幾個陸域風機的案子大概都非常的因為基本上陸域風機超過500公尺半徑的話其實它對於民眾的生活上的確是受到很大的影響所以今年的確有好幾個陸域風機特別是在彰化還有台東屏東的都沒有通過"},{"start":242.734,"end":257.405,"text":"所以其實關於台東那個案件的話我也主動因為我知道台東的民眾很關心這個問題在我們環境部的臉書不過他還沒有正式開發他是預想要開發所以我們也表示說如果要進行陸域風險的開發一定要"},{"start":258.025,"end":280.845,"text":"特別特別的注意那我們個人來說的話是不鼓勵因為其實這個台灣的土地面積很小如果要有這麼大規模的入域縫隙很難找到地方所以我們基本上一定要相信這邊還是要強烈建議就是說以後如果要設置的話至少要離部落五百公尺以上因為他們設置的地點有些是非常近現在規定就是五百公尺距離就一定要做環評"},{"start":281.784,"end":303.591,"text":"我做一個數字給部長參考就是500公尺以內如果造成所謂的低頻噪音的話每增加7.86個分貝會造成心跳變快就是說如果說10分貝每增加10分貝的話可能他一天的心跳多了一萬多下所以這個部分就會造成以後無論是心血管無論是他的腦神經衰弱這些部分"},{"start":304.231,"end":325.025,"text":"就是他們低頻造成的所以這個概念就是要有所以他國外的研究說希望是五百公尺以上是有依據的而不是隨便亂說的現在就是五百公尺距離這個建築物五百公尺都必須要還品接下來請我們衛生部長謝謝環境部長麻煩請衛福部長請備詢"},{"start":336.605,"end":353.841,"text":"因為每次看到我的話應該還是要想到原建法原建法再過一個月就要兩年了所以我們再講一次專責單位的重要性那為什麼一直要這麼說因為原住民地區確實是非常的辛苦然後每次我們都在講就是衛生所在幾乎承接了所有的"},{"start":354.361,"end":376.696,"text":"所謂的醫療的照顧那其實我在選舉期間我一直都在說希望能夠衛生所能夠升級升級呢就是比如說變成小醫院或者是醫院的層級規模的時候裡面的醫生的科別才會多護理人員才會增加不然每次都是固定一個地段一個護士所以六個村就是六個護士可是現在的問題五花八門"},{"start":378.22,"end":399.212,"text":"那個防疫的時候要做防疫有個案死亡的時候要去做香菸這些事情或者說打疫苗的時候全部都要其實都是這幾個人在輪流做嘛所以其實如果說把你有專責單位的話去研究我們原鄉地區的衛生所能不能做一個升級以後呢我們才有下一步的可能不然人力永遠都是緊繃在那裡"},{"start":401.547,"end":403.889,"text":"所以委員的意思是要提升原鄉衛生所的人力"},{"start":432.067,"end":449.694,"text":"不然你永遠都是12個人的編制做那麼多事情我想委員長期在基層的衛生所服務很了解到他的服務他可以說是前往位的一個一健康一體的概念在服務的整個社區那我想這個部在人力上的確"},{"start":450.435,"end":474.736,"text":"不管是醫護相關工位的人才都相當的辛苦是不是我們可以先這個部分我們一般都是先協調縣市衛生局能夠給予資源不管是在人員或者是在醫院的協助之下因為衛生所一般來講都會跟醫院合作所以這個部分如果能夠充分的來合作相信可以解決"},{"start":476.102,"end":492.897,"text":"目前的問題其實這個也不只在原鄉連在雲林的鄉下哪裡都是這個問題所以應該可以盤點全國特偏地區或是偏遠地區衛生所的人力編制不是每個地區都一樣然後上次提到救護車的事情就是說"},{"start":493.577,"end":518.161,"text":"明明就是有看到救護車可是沒有救護車司機備請嘛那其實以後可以把衛生所跟消防隊能夠蓋近一點像以前我在霧台衛生所服務的時候消防隊就在隔壁所以不是有後送的時候是不是很方便那像上次發生那個死亡案件就是因為他是衛生所在他前面可是他要叫消防隊是在好幾公里以外來的時候已經超過20分鐘以上"},{"start":518.641,"end":539.516,"text":"那就是會造成這樣的一個所謂的一個盲點所以其實如果你要救護車要有人開當然一定要有人沒有司機所以你把衛生所跟消防隊如果蓋近一點說不定以後他們人類可以互相搭配然後就可以輪流休息而不是永遠這批人累死了這邊的人就是可以放假這樣你不覺得這樣比較合理嗎對 因為這樣會比較有效力好 那"},{"start":546.024,"end":570.629,"text":"接下來就是我想問你萊豬的你的態度看到新聞說澳洲的萊豬可以進來了現在的單位是說是法定容許的量嘛對不對 部長法定是0.01那現在查驗出來是0.001ppm所以是在我們的法定國際標準的容許量以下對 那我跟院長我報告一個"},{"start":572.57,"end":594.791,"text":"資訊就是說2022年環境醫學有一個報告就是萊豬的無論你是不是容許範圍就是反正我們現在按照我們現在的法定的容許量好了他會加速動脈周狀硬化高血脂症也就是說增加我們心臟的一些所謂的風險在所以其實我們不要說他我們國家為了"},{"start":596.312,"end":614.85,"text":"什麼政策造成說可以容許檢出當然我們還是希望能夠零檢出啦不過還是要告訴說潛在的風險是在這裡不是因為說我們要去完全去block掉這個東西可是你要知道它的危害所以你要告訴國人說這個有這方面的疑慮所以還是要標示可以嗎"},{"start":615.555,"end":632.697,"text":"相關的報導也告訴我們說它已經是累積到相當程度的量它才會造成身體的一個反應出來那我們認為現在從國內的實用的狀況來講都不會到達那個量但是我們還是要提醒肉商"},{"start":633.728,"end":659.135,"text":"販賣的業者跟國人能夠自力提高經濟畢竟現在是從澳洲來的嘛所以希望標示能夠還是知道他是澳洲所以國人才可以做選擇第二個就是我們原住民就是我們公費養成計畫這個部分跟部長討論現在他們在公費生在分發的時候有七個順序就是說他可以到原住民地區衛生所可以到原住民地區所屬醫院可以到所屬非教學院這些七個"},{"start":660.115,"end":686.093,"text":"所以很多選項不過現在有一個陳情就是說他是原住民公費生他想要到診所去服務結果沒有辦法那其實在專科護理師的公費生其實是可以到偏遠地區的診所服務還公費可是醫生卻沒有辦法然後其實我們在這個所謂的七個順序別裡面他有一個第五項就是"},{"start":686.773,"end":702.782,"text":"原住民地區長期照顧管理中心或是長期照顧服務機構這第五項是他可以到哪裡服務那如果這個診所是做居家醫療的我覺得這是同類型的所以這個同類型的話我覺得可以開放或者是說我們把它直接設置第八點就是說"},{"start":703.522,"end":719.307,"text":"本席說建議設置原住民地區提供基層醫療居家醫療社區整合照護或安寧照護的服務診所應該作為公務生可以作為公費生旅行服務醫務的單位這是我的第八條建議所以希望以後我們有空的時候可以討論這一點"},{"start":720.871,"end":747.649,"text":"好 謝謝委員我想這個問題我們其實一直都有討論過因為現在的服務型態已經從醫院診所到社區我們所工作已經從居家醫療到全診照顧到安寧的一個照顧但是問題做這些的團隊其實他是很辛苦而且如果在偏遠地區或山地離島那距離更遠所以其實是"},{"start":748.269,"end":774.792,"text":"不太有人要做啦所以如果把這個也加進去在裡面在排行七裡面也不一定要第八啦他可能會在前面一點讓更多的這些公會醫師能夠回到其實他醫院裡有時候也沒有位子了但是所以他沒辦法回去服務那如果有願意做居家醫療安寧照顧這種比較辛苦的比較沒人做的"},{"start":775.559,"end":796.132,"text":"我相信他的順序是可以把他排在前面部長同意嗎同意就是說因為這種比你你如果只是說我去那邊開業那可能當時當跟當時當初設立的原理就不太一樣而且也會引起其他的一個已經在那邊開業的意思的不同意見"},{"start":797.182,"end":814.152,"text":"最後一個問題就是關於那個就是有波波醫師的爭議的很多醫師單位跟我反映然後是要跟部長強烈的建議就是說新修正的醫師法施行細則裡面他有些他覺得他的一律我念給你聽"},{"start":814.992,"end":840.972,"text":"也基大學教學品質刊率就是第一個第二個就是說遠距教學他也被承認然後見習時數可以當作實習時數第四個就是說他認為你是圖利特定人士那你可不可以要不要做一些辨別報告委員我想那個細則其實是按照原來的版本把它規劃得更嚴格一點那如果說大家還有誤解的話我想我們都會坐下來談沒有問題"},{"start":843.075,"end":866.338,"text":"因為比如說演技但是在特別疫情的時候你如果沒有這一條的話大概就我們大概所有的大學的連高中生當時都不用畢業了因為很多連我兒子連建中差不多兩三年大概有一年半都是在視訊所以你沒有這樣的一個規範讓他完整其實也不行那另外在"},{"start":867.539,"end":885.23,"text":"認定的這個部分那是一個國家每一個國家它有不同的制度我們尊重國家如果這個大家還有疑惑我覺得都可以做下來所以你還是要請那些反波波一式的團體可以跟你們一起討論啊沒問題沒問題覺得說他們都沒有被尊重我們非常樂意來討論"},{"start":888.1,"end":910.808,"text":"那部長我們有一些養成計畫的公飛生還在外面流浪我想說你還是請特定的就是我們的工作人員或者官員去關心他們去問他們何去何從因為這些沒有被分發的一些公飛畢業生已經超過百位所以希望你可以組一個所謂的小組去協助他們未來怎麼辦可以嗎"},{"start":911.618,"end":940.764,"text":"還沒有分發的公會醫師我想這個部分我們政府有責任來瞭解我們訓練這麼多醫生他已經訓練好了可是沒辦法回去服務這個部分我們怎麼樣讓他到適當的地方來服務我們的人民我想我們會很用心來研議謝謝部長好 謝謝盧瀉英委員的質詢我們謝謝卓院長 衛福部長 貝許謝謝接下來我們是李彥秀委員質詢蔓郁真委員請準備"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":264,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（15時35分）主席，有請院長跟環境部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、環境部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：盧委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：部長好。今天我們來談談再生能源，因為越來越多光電或者是風力發電想要在我們原住民地區做設施。我們來看一下現在美國的比率大概是多少，我看資料美國現在太陽能的話是22%，我們臺灣現在是5%，也就是說，可能以後我們會有越來越多的光電設施，我們可以預期。現在考一下彭部長，如果1,000戶的話，大概需要多少光電面積？"],["彭部長啓明：1,000Mega？"],["盧委員縣一：1,000戶，1,000個家庭。"],["彭部長啓明：1,000個家庭？這個比較難講……"],["盧委員縣一：我有查資料，它說是32acre（英畝），如果換成甲的話是13.35甲，我們再這樣算，如果以後我們要增加那麼多光電，那要設在哪裡？你有沒有想過我們以後maximum要到多少公畝，還是多少甲的光電設施？"],["彭部長啓明：要到幾萬公頃。"],["盧委員縣一：是。"],["彭部長啓明：的確，如果要大的話是要到……"],["盧委員縣一：以後原住民地區可能會越來越多，所以我們就討論到原基法第二十一條：政府或私人於原住民族土地或部落及其周邊一定範圍內之公有土地從事土地開發、資源利用、生態保育及學術研究，應諮商並取得原住民族或部落同意或參與，原住民得分享相關利益。現在就是公有土地這個部分跟私有土地這個部分是最受爭議的，因為業者為了規避很多法令就去找了私有地，所以臺東海端鄉的廣原村就拉了白布條，說這個私人土地是1.5公頃，可是縣政府後來說它符合所謂的環評。部長在環評的部分能不能好好把關？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，目前是針對山坡地超過15公頃，我們現在是訂環評，但是關於原民關切的部分，其實環評裡面如果大家有意見的話，我們可以列入考慮，未來環評再進行修正。不過，基本上這個還是要跟原住民基本法裡面諮商的部分，因為這是兩個平行的時空，如果諮商可以來進行。"],["盧委員縣一：是，所以我今年有提出一個修法，希望私有土地能夠經部落同意，至少住在這個土地的原住民能夠知道或者是同意這件事情，這樣阻力會比較少，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個可能要在原住民基本法裡面討論這個東西，我們環評的部分可以考慮，例如原民部落多大面積要進行環評，這個部分我們也可以考慮做這些規劃。"],["盧委員縣一：OK！就風力發電的部分，我剛剛看了，今年3月造成臺東縣很多，無論是縣長、議長或者是立委，他們都強烈反對要在我們東海岸設置風電。部長，你的態度呢？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，今年我們環評委員審到好幾個陸域風機的案子，大概都非常的……基本上陸域風機超過半徑500公尺的話，其實它讓民眾的生活的確受到很大的影響，所以今年的確有好幾個陸域風機，特別是在彰化，還有屏東的都沒有通過。關於臺東那個案件，我知道臺東的民眾很關心這個問題，在環境部的臉書……不過它還沒有正式開發，是預想要開發。所以我們也表示如果要進行陸域風機的開發一定要特別特別地注意，個人來說的話是不鼓勵，因為其實臺灣的土地面積很小，如果要有大規模的陸域風機很難找到地方，所以基本上一定要詳細評估……"],["盧委員縣一：本席還是要強力建議，如果以後要設置的話，至少要離部落500公尺以上，因為他們設置的地點有些是非常近。"],["彭部長啓明：現在規定就是距離500公尺就一定要做環評。"],["盧委員縣一：對，我拿一個數字給部長參考，500公尺以內如果造成低頻噪音的話，每增加7.86分貝會造成心跳變快，也就是每增加10分貝的話，可能一天的心跳多了一萬多下，以後就會造成無論是心血管、腦神經衰弱，這些部分就是低頻噪音造成的，這個概念你要先有。所以國外研究希望500公尺以上是有依據的，不是隨便亂說。"],["彭部長啓明：對，現在就是距離這個建築物500公尺都必須要環評。"],["盧委員縣一：好，接下來請衛福部長。"],["主席：謝謝環境部長。","麻煩請衛福部長備詢。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：部長，每次看到我應該就要想到原健法，原健法再過一個月就要兩年了，所以我們再講一次專責單位的重要性，為什麼一直要這麼說？因為原住民地區確實是非常的辛苦，每次我們都在講衛生所幾乎承接所有的醫療照顧，其實我在選舉期間一直都在說，希望衛生所能夠升級，譬如變成小醫院或醫院層級規模的時候，裡面的醫生科別才會多、護理人員才會增加，不然每次都是固定1個地段1個護士，所以6個村就是6個護士，可是現在的問題五花八門，防疫的時候要做防疫、有個案死亡的時候要去相驗，或要打疫苗的時候，這些事情全部都要……其實都是那這幾個人在輪流做嘛！如果你有專責單位的話，去研究原鄉地區衛生所能不能升級，升級以後我們才有下一步的可能，不然人力永遠都是緊繃在那裡。部長可以嗎？不要明年再來質詢的時候，專責單位還是沒有成立。"],["邱部長泰源：所以委員的意思是要提升原鄉衛生所的……"],["盧委員縣一：人力，就是要把衛生所升級，升級以後人力才可以進來，不然我每次都說衛生所只有2個醫生，它的編制就是這樣嘛！比如霧台鄉衛生所變成偏遠地區醫院的話，它是不是科別就會變多、護理人員可以相對變多、做長照的人也可以進來，不然永遠都是12人的編制要做那麼多事情。"],["邱部長泰源：是，我想委員長期在基層衛生所服務，可以說是全方位健康一體的概念在服務整個社區，在人力上的確不管是醫護、公衛相關的人才都相當的辛苦，這個部分一般都是先協調縣市衛生局能夠給予支援，不管是在人員或在醫院的協助之下，因為衛生所一般都會跟醫院合作，所以這個部分如果能夠充分的合作，相信可以解決目前的問題，其實這個也不只在原鄉，連在雲林縣鄉下，哪裡都有這個問題。"],["盧委員縣一：是啊！所以應該可以盤點全國特定地區或偏遠地區衛生所的人力編制，不是每一個地區都一樣。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["盧委員縣一：上次提到救護車的事情，明明有看到救護車，可是沒有救護車司機備勤。其實以後可以把衛生所跟消防隊蓋近一點，像以前我在霧台衛生所服務的時候，消防隊就在隔壁，所以有後送的時候是不是就很方便？像上次發生死亡案件，就是因為衛生所在他前面，可是要叫消防隊是在好幾公里以外，來的時候已經超過20分鐘以上，就會造成所謂的盲點。其實救護車要有人開，當然一定要有司機，所以衛生所跟消防隊如果蓋近一點，說不定以後人力可以互相搭配、輪流休息，而不是永遠這一批人累死，這邊的人就是可以放假，你不覺得這樣比較合理嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：對，因為這樣會比較有效率。"],["盧委員縣一：好，接下來我想問你對萊豬的態度。看到新聞說澳洲的萊豬可以進來了，現在的單位是法定容許的量嘛？對不對？部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：法定是0.01，現在查驗出來是0.001，所以是在國際標準的法定容許量以下。"],["盧委員縣一：我跟院長報告一個資訊，2022年環境醫學有一個報告說萊豬無論是不是容許範圍，反正按照我們現在的法定容許量好了，它會加速動脈粥狀硬化、高血脂症，也就是會增加我們心臟的風險。所以我們國家不要為了什麼政策造成可以容許檢出，當然我們還是希望能夠零檢出，不過還是要提醒潛在的風險是在這裡，不是我們要完全去block掉這個東西，你要知道它的危害，要告訴國人有這方面的疑慮，所以還是要標示可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，相關的報導也告訴我們，它是累積到相當程度的量才會造成身體反應出來，我們認為現在從國內食用的狀況來講都不會到達那個量，但是我們還是要提醒肉商、販賣業者跟國人能夠自律提高警覺。"],["盧委員縣一：畢竟現在是從澳洲來的，所以希望能標示、能知道來自澳洲，國人才可以選擇。","第二個跟部長討論我們原住民公費養成計畫的部分。現在公費生在分發的時候有七個順序，他可以到原住民地區衛生所、可以到原住民地區所屬醫院、可以到非教學醫院等這七個機構，很多選項。不過現在有一個陳情，他是原住民公費生，他想要到診所去服務結果沒有辦法。其實專科護理師的公費生可以到偏遠地區的診所服務還公費，可是醫生卻沒有辦法，然後在這七個順序別裡面的第五項就是原住民地區長期照顧管理中心或是長期照顧服務機構，這第五項是他可以到那裡服務。如果這個診所是做居家醫療，我覺得這是屬於同類型，所以同類型我覺得可以開放或者是我們把它直接設置第八點。本席建議設置原住民地區提供基層醫療、居家醫療、社區整合照護或安寧照護的服務診所應該可以作為公費生履行服務義務的單位，這是我的第八條建議，希望我們有空的時候可以討論這一點。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員，這個問題我們其實一直都有討論，因為現在的服務型態已經從醫院、診所到社區，我們的工作已經從居家醫療到全人照護到安寧照護，做這些工作的團隊其實是很辛苦的，而且如果在偏遠地區或山地離島距離更遠，所以其實不太有人要做。"],["盧委員縣一：是。"],["邱部長泰源：如果把這個也加進去排行七裡面，也不一定要到第八，它可能可以在前面一點。其實公費醫師在醫院有時候也沒有位置，所以他沒辦法回去服務，如果有願意做居家醫療、安寧照護這種比較辛苦的、比較沒人做的，我相信它的順序可以排在前面。"],["盧委員縣一：對，所以部長同意嘛？"],["邱部長泰源：我們來研議，因為這總比你如果只是去那邊開業，可能跟當初設立的原意就不太一樣，而且也會引起其他已經在那邊開業的醫師有不同的意見。"],["盧委員縣一：最後一個問題是關於波波醫師的爭議，很多醫師單位跟我反映，也要跟部長強烈地建議。關於新修正的醫師法施行細則，他覺得有些疑慮，我唸給你聽，野雞大學教學品質堪慮，這是第一個；第二個就是遠距教學也被承認，然後見習時數可以當作實習時數；第四個就是他認為你是圖利特定人士。你要不要做一些辨白？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想那個細則其實是按照原來的版本把它規劃得更嚴格一點，如果大家還有誤解，我想我們都可以坐下來談，沒有問題，因為譬如說遠距，那是特別在疫情的時候，你如果沒有這一條，我們大概所有大學，連高中生當時都不用畢業了，連我兒子念建中，差不多兩、三年中大概有一年半都是在視訊，所以你沒有這樣讓它完整的規範，其實也不行。","另外，在認定的部分，每一個國家有不同的制度，我們是尊重國家制度，如果這個大家還有疑惑，我覺得都可以坐下來再談。"],["盧委員縣一：所以你還是要請那些反波波醫師的團體可以跟你們一起討論。"],["邱部長泰源：沒有問題。"],["盧委員縣一：他們覺得都沒有被尊重。"],["邱部長泰源：我們非常樂意討論。"],["盧委員縣一：部長，我們有一些養成計畫的公費生還在外面流浪，我想你還是請特定的工作人員或是官員去關心他們，問他們何去何從，因為這些沒有被分發的公費畢業生已經超過百位，希望你可以組一個的小組去協助他們的未來，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：還沒有分發的公費醫師？"],["盧委員縣一：對。"],["邱部長泰源：好，這個部分，政府有責任了解。"],["盧委員縣一：不然我們訓練這麼多醫生，沒有……"],["邱部長泰源：看怎麼安排，他已經學好也訓練好了，可是就是沒辦法回去服務。"],["盧委員縣一：是。"],["邱部長泰源：這個部分我們怎麼讓他到適當的地方來服務我們的人民，我們會很用心研議。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝盧縣一委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長、衛福部長備詢，謝謝。","接下來請李彥秀委員質詢，麥玉珍委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉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部長好今天想跟院長還有部長一起來討論如何來強化我們國人的健康資訊的整合和運用這一部分我在前面說明的時間會比較冗長所以就麻煩院長跟部長能夠擔待因為我們知道自從這個健康台灣推動委員會"},{"start":73.867,"end":95.506,"text":"第一次會議的時候就有定調在這個健康台灣願景規劃裡面我們可以看到其實很多的健康台灣的計畫跟策略都必須要有很好的資料整合與運用這個部分不只是要跨不同的政府部會同時是跨公司部門的"},{"start":96.927,"end":125.834,"text":"這個包括888計畫包括全民心理健康韌性計畫國家癌症防治計畫還有智慧醫療長照三年齡等等如果我們以擴大推動心理健康知識為例的話我們從希望能夠強化民眾的心理健康過程來看光是在青少年這一部分就可能會涉及到衛福部還有教育部的資料整合"},{"start":127.175,"end":141.133,"text":"當然也會包括到內政部還有請政署的資料整合針對整體的民眾而言我們希望在推動這個過程裡面不管是在哪一個生命週期可能在青少年"},{"start":141.857,"end":157.772,"text":"或者是在就業期甚至到成熟老年期以後相關的各種不同的特定人口群的心理健康事實上都需要有一個比較完整的資訊的整合那我相信這個部分院長也會非常非常的關心"},{"start":158.453,"end":185.187,"text":"那進一步針對國家癌症防治的計畫為例的話我們也知道它需要的就是一個橫向的包括各個部會施主的這個整防治的資源那在縱向而言還會包括整合到衛生醫療機構院所還有民間機構團體等等那我們都了解其實癌症的防治最重要的就是在它發病"},{"start":185.851,"end":210.781,"text":"在得到整段癌症之前我們就希望能夠來做一些預防那這個預防裡面前端的預防像是運動、營養還有飲食等等各種的生活習慣將來會涉及到的就是運動部還有農業部相關的資訊那如果在工作的場域方面還有生活環境的這些癌症風險因此的管控"},{"start":212.182,"end":223.075,"text":"還會涉及到的就是有勞動部還有環境部等等的權責所以如何能夠運用這些資訊的整合來降低癌症的死亡率這個需要行政院"},{"start":224.429,"end":249.125,"text":"進行這個跨部會的整合來一起處理我們最後再想利用有關賴總統在第三次的健康台灣推動委員會裡面特別提到想要推動這個整合健診資料來防止慢性病為例的話我們可以發現說在這個部分至少有三個問題需要去了解第一個就是要如何整合"},{"start":249.685,"end":260.417,"text":"散落在各個部會各個單位甚至在各個類型的人員手上的資料第二部分我們到底要採取立法來強制整合呢或者是要用"},{"start":261.784,"end":280.578,"text":"誘因的鼓勵模式來加強這個整合當然第三點就是有關於資安各自的保護還有開放運用的法源是不是有所依據所以我們可以從這張國內各類型的見證法源跟資料持有者的示意圖來看"},{"start":281.579,"end":292.775,"text":"我們看到的就是不同對象的類別不管是勞工、學生、公務人員或國人等等他有不同的法源依據可以得到相關的這些見證的資料"},{"start":294.622,"end":318.236,"text":"我們知道從法務公務人員跟公費的健檢資料來看相對來講處理起來是比較方便的可是針對於勞工的健檢資料學生的健檢資料甚至是國人自費的健檢的資料事實上如果要來整合進入到我們慢性病防治的這個健檢資料庫的話是有它一定的困難度所以在這個挑戰上面"},{"start":319.156,"end":332.729,"text":"我們有三個層次的建議包括第一個就是利用憲法法庭在111年憲判13號要求立法的機會來擴大處理健康資料的整合運用"},{"start":333.632,"end":349.835,"text":"那如果退而求其是要先通過這個健保資料庫法規來處理的話那也希望未來能夠再盡快研議後續的修法時程跟它的完整的內容那其他如果是要定調用"},{"start":350.576,"end":369.961,"text":"政策計畫或者是行政命令來處理的話那也希望有一個完整的配套措施我們認為國人的健康資料在整合運用之前我們都必須要完善的跟社會做好完整的溝通來確保這個治安跟各自的"},{"start":371.936,"end":396.948,"text":"各方面的保障讓人民可以很放心的知道說國家未來在使用這些健康資料的時候對人民還有對個人的健康都是有完整的保障而且是最有利用價值的那這樣的社會的信任才是政策能夠推動好的一個前提所以在這部分我們很期待能夠透過院長"},{"start":399.198,"end":410.093,"text":"這邊多了解一下希望未來在這一部分如何有更好的想法或者是在規劃上有哪一些的期程請院長好 謝謝王委員在健康台灣"},{"start":411.428,"end":434.341,"text":"非常成功的論壇提出了健康台灣的深耕計畫確實讓國內在整個醫療環境上面有了很多更充實的想法那其中我們對於像癌症像罕病像三高已經發病已經有病在身上我們有一套完整的醫療計畫我個人認為在一般國人身上兩個部分非常重要一個是健康促進一個是精準醫療"},{"start":435.529,"end":461.047,"text":"健康促進會讓大家改變生活習慣精準醫療會降低我們在醫療上面的成本也讓病人少於痛苦那這兩個部分要做到就必須要委員所說的這些資訊的整合運用非常非常的重要那台灣有30年非常豐富的健保的資訊在這個我們現在已經在著手在研究對過去的怎麼處理未來的發生怎麼處理那現在"},{"start":461.847,"end":488.874,"text":"在各自保障以及充分信任的原則底下拿出來如何有效來運用才讓國人在健康醫療方面得到更多的保障正是現在在做的工作這個也是說我們委員所說的醫療韌性跟它的永續發展這點是非常重要我們正朝這個方向來做好 謝謝院長所以我們很期待未來在資料的整合可以有更前瞻的做法來完成這樣的任務的政策要求"},{"start":490.15,"end":502.858,"text":"接下來希望跟院長還有部長討論一下如何能夠把危機變成轉機就是如何能夠利用這次關稅的影響來對世界產業鏈的衝擊能夠提升我國在醫療產業的發展跟韌性"},{"start":510.919,"end":536.954,"text":"院長我們知道其實最近很多很多的議題都跟這個美國總統川普對於關稅對全世界造成了影響那就從這個醫藥的原料藥或者是醫材原料各方面來講的話我們知道這個成本可能會有所影響那以原料藥為例全球最主要原料的供給國就是包括中國還有印度那即便將來會在美國製造"},{"start":539.352,"end":552.958,"text":"最後可能也因為這些成本的影響提高而會轉嫁到消費者那會不會就會造成全球藥品跟醫材運用整體性的提高這個都是讓我們所擔心的那面對這樣的關稅衝擊其實在衛房委員會"},{"start":557.22,"end":578.379,"text":"4月16號也排了專案的報告那個時候部長也在這個諮詢過程裡面也做了一些相對的答覆那我在那天的會議上面除了強調藥品跟這個醫材以外事實上還有兩個非常重要的就是有關於疫苗還有血液製劑的這個供應的穩定"},{"start":580.18,"end":604.225,"text":"那我們也知道其實現在是有一些政策來針對於這個疫苗跟血液製劑的供應有相對的這個處理模式可是我們期待的是將來政府能不能夠更積極投入更多的資源有更明確的政策來讓我們這次所碰到的危機變成一個轉機所以我們也期待"},{"start":604.825,"end":629.014,"text":"在這個部分有更好的健康產業的新方向包括建立我們本土的產業鏈來整合進全球的供應鏈裡面還有醫療產業能夠納入經貿的戰略分散供應的來源進而強化資源的投入納入韌性特別條例跟預算"},{"start":630.394,"end":637.083,"text":"這部分院長利用4100億其實也有所琢磨最後當然更期待的是可以"},{"start":638.021,"end":667.581,"text":"提升我們國家整體的戰略規劃來長期支援益助讓這個危機轉化為轉機期待我們在整個醫療韌性上面不只從這個需求來看而已而是希望能夠讓這樣的國家的整體戰略可以達到未來的目標那這部分不知道院長或者是部長有沒有相關的看法好 謝謝委員的指教委員提出來的健康產業的新方向就是我們一直在做的事情"},{"start":668.261,"end":693.831,"text":"那我特別再補充的就是我們剛剛委員提到的幾點第一個當然大家最關心的疫苗那我們在健康台灣的推動小組裡面也成立了國家疫苗產業推動小組那這個也開了兩三次會把產業跟我們技術還有準備在台灣落實我們以國產發展國產的一個疫苗"},{"start":699.844,"end":725.275,"text":"長期要去做的目標那以短期來講因為我們在防疫的疫苗裡面因為短期的供應不會有立即的影響因為我們都是前長期的業所以大致上短期不會影響但是長期來講我們已經成立了一個國家疫苗產業推動小組來進行這件事情那至於其他醫材或者是藥品方面我們也"},{"start":727.03,"end":731.695,"text":"強調一直在推動本土化,像4月26號我們公告兩個辦法,就是對藥品我們鼓勵學民藥的產業在台灣的製造,建立本土的一個產業鏈"},{"start":743.227,"end":763.728,"text":"那在中醫藥方面我們也希望在原料不要一直靠國外我們希望我們台灣有很多地方是可以產很好的產品我們一起中西我們這些都是本土化來對藥品做一個穩定我想這個部分都是增加我們醫材醫藥方面的韌性好 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":765.129,"end":789.88,"text":"那再來我想要跟院長跟部長來討論一下有關於商保協同健保的可能性我們知道這個是一個重要議題如何能夠再強化我們整體的除了現有的全民健保跟商業保險以外提供強化醫療保障第二層的這個健保政策線這是由民眾志願參加的一個保險那這個其實在論壇去年已經完成了"},{"start":790.94,"end":816.411,"text":"國會院完成這個論壇以後也已經撰寫成書等一下我會把這本書獻給院長來做個參考這一部分在這個討論的過程裡面其實有一部分的主力是來自於保險業者或者是相關的業者所以這部分我們很希望能夠有更進一步的政策可行性的探索以外也能不能請院長來責成政委"},{"start":817.471,"end":819.053,"text":"我們健保的體系相當完整在這完整的前提底下"},{"start":840.314,"end":865.817,"text":"但是國人加入商業保險的這個比例也相當的高那如果在兩邊的整合現在是到了一個可以檢討的時候所以我所知道健保署也委託了國衛院在做相關的規劃但是剛剛委員所提醒的是要把這些有些商業模式的概念帶進來才能夠在未來是否可行性的評估上面得到更真實那這一點委員的建議我們會請衛務部來接受這樣的建議"},{"start":866.357,"end":894.644,"text":"好 謝謝那最後一部分也可能要麻煩彭部長就是有關於這個醫療體系環保永續的策略其實賴總統也非常強調這個節能減碳那醫療院所針對這個運用ESCO達到節能減碳的目標也曾經去過長庚醫院那魏晃也去過長庚醫院做了相關的這些努力的了解那彭部長也希望能夠透過導入綠色金融"},{"start":895.464,"end":898.868,"text":"目前醫院裡面就是長庚體系做得最積極現在我們政府有兩個方式一個是環境部是負責私立的醫院"},{"start":917.088,"end":943.392,"text":"比較大型的私立醫院公立的醫院是經濟部在做協助我們大部分已經開始在協助他們診斷了診斷完了之後就要媒合媒合目前私立醫院走得比較順暢公立醫院的確有一點點難度因為基本上他的資源或是他招標的形式比較難進行資金的部分沒有問題因為金管會也協助我們如果需要資金的話金管會的壽險資金都可以來做協助"},{"start":943.792,"end":948.275,"text":"所以現在未來這幾個月是在媒合當中我們希望可以達到委員的目標"},{"start":973.131,"end":977.254,"text":"好 謝謝王哲熹委員質詢 謝謝卓院長 衛福部長 環境部部長備詢 謝謝接下來我們請盧憲英委員質詢 李彥秀委員請準備"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":236,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（15時19分）謝謝主席。韓院長，有請行政院卓院長還有衛福部邱部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、衛福部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：院長好，部長好。今天想跟院長及部長一起討論如何強化國人健康資訊的整合與運用，由於我在說明的時間上會比較冗長，就麻煩院長跟部長擔待一下。","我們知道自從健康台灣推動委員會第1次會議時就定調，而我們在健康臺灣願景規劃裡可以看到，很多健康台灣的計畫和策略都必須有很好的資料整合與運用。這不僅跨不同的政府部會，同時也跨公私部門，包括888計畫、全民心理健康韌性計畫、國家癌症防治計畫、智慧醫療及長照3.0等等。","以擴大推動心理健康支持，希望能夠強化民眾心理健康過程來看，光青少年這部分就可能涉及衛福部與教育部的資料整合，當然也包括內政部、警政署的資料整合。","就針對整體民眾而言，我們希望在推動過程裡，不管在哪一個生命週期，可能在青少年或在就業期，甚至到成熟老年期以後，相關各種不同的特定人口群的心理健康，事實上都需要比較完整的資訊整合，我相信院長對此也非常非常關心。","進一步以針對國家癌症防治計畫為例，我們知道這需要橫向的，包括各部會司署的癌症防治資源。至於縱向而言，則包括整合衛生、醫療機構院所與民間機構團體等等。我們都了解，癌症防治最重要的就是在發病前，即在診斷得到癌症之前能夠做一些預防。至於前端的預防，像是運動、營養，還有飲食等等各種生活習慣，則涉及運動部及農業部的相關資訊。如果是工作場域方面和生活環境的癌症風險因子管控，則涉及勞動部、環境部等等的權責。所以如何運用這些資訊的整合來降低癌症的死亡率，需要行政院進行跨部會的整合並處理。","賴總統在第3次健康台灣推動委員會中特別提到，以推動整合健檢資料防治慢性病為例，我們至少有三個問題需要了解：第一，如何整合散落在各部會、各單位，甚至在各類型人員手上的資料？第二，到底是要立法強制整合或者以誘因的鼓勵模式來加強整合？第三，有關資安、個資的保護及開放運用的法源是不是有所依據？","從國內各類型的健檢法源與資料持有者的示意圖可以看到，不同的對象類別，不管是勞工、學生、公務人員或國人等等，都有不同的法源依據可以得到相關的健檢資料。其中法務、公務人員跟公費的健檢資料相對而言，處理起來是比較方便的。但針對勞工的健檢資料、學生的健檢資料，甚至是國人自費的健檢資料，如果要整合並進入慢性病防治健檢資料庫的話，則具有一定的困難度。","因此，在挑戰上，我們有三個層次的建議：第一個，利用憲法法庭111年憲判字13號要求立法的機會，擴大處理健康資料的整合運用。如果退而求其次要先通過健保資料庫法規來處理的話，也希望未來能夠再儘快研議後續的修法時程跟完整的內容，其他如果需要定調用政策計畫或是行政命令來處理的話，也希望有完整的配套措施。","我們認為，國人的健康資料在整合運用之前，都必須要完善的跟社會做好完整的溝通，確保資安跟個資等各方面的保障，讓人民可以很放心的知道，國家未來在使用這些健康資料的時候，對人民還有對個人的健康都有完整的保障，而且是最有利用價值的。社會的信任才是政策能夠推動良好的前提，所以在這部分，我們很期待能夠透過院長這邊多了解一下，希望未來在這部分如何有更好的想法或者是在規劃上有哪一些期程？請院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝王委員。在非常成功的健康台灣論壇上提出的健康台灣深耕計畫，確實讓國內在整個醫療環境上面有更多更充實的想法，其中對於像癌症、像罕病、像三高，已經有病在身上的，我們有一套完整的醫療計畫。我個人認為，在一般國人身上有兩個部分非常重要，一個是健康促進；一個是精準醫療。健康促進會讓大家改變生活習慣；精準醫療會降低我們在醫療上的成本，也能讓病人減少痛苦，要做到這兩個部分，就必須如委員所說的，相關資訊的整合運用非常非常重要。","臺灣有30年非常豐富的健保資訊，這部分我們現在已經著手研究，對過去的要怎麼處理，未來發生的怎麼處理，現在在個資保障以及充分信任的原則底下拿出來，如何有效地運用，才能讓國人在健康醫療方面得到更多的保障，這是現在在做的工作。這個也是委員所說的醫療韌性及其永續發展，這點非常重要，我們正朝這個方向來做。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝院長，我們很期待未來在資料的整合會有更前瞻的作法，來完成這樣的任務跟政策要求。","接下來希望跟院長和部長討論一下，如何能夠把危機變成轉機？就是如何利用這次關稅的影響對世界產業面造成的衝擊，能夠提升我國在醫療產業的發展跟韌性。院長，我們知道最近很多很多議題都跟美國總統川普的對等關稅對全世界造成的影響，就從醫藥的原料藥或是醫材原料各方面來講，我們知道可能會對成本有所影響。以原料藥為例，全球最主要原料藥的供給國包括中國還有印度，即便將來會在美國製造，最後可能也因為成本提高的影響而會轉嫁到消費者，會不會因此造成全球藥品跟醫材運用整體性的提高，這個都是讓我們所擔心的。","面對這樣的關稅衝擊，其實衛環委員會在4月16號也安排了專案報告，當時部長在質詢過程中也相對地做了一些答復。我在那一天的會議上面，除了強調藥品跟醫材以外，事實上還有兩個非常重要的，就是有關於疫苗還有血液製劑的供應穩定。我們也知道，其實現在是有一些政策針對於疫苗跟血液製劑的供應，有相對的處理模式，可是我們期待的是，將來政府能不能更積極投入更多的資源，有更明確的政策，來讓我們這次所碰到的危機變成一個轉機。我們也期待在這個部分有更好的健康產業的新方向，包括建立本土的產業鏈並整合進全球的供應鏈裡面；還有將醫療產業納入經貿戰略，分散供應的來源；強化資源投入，納入韌性特別條例跟預算，這部分院長利用4,100億其實也有所著墨；最後，當然更期待可以提升我們國家整體戰略規劃與長期資源挹注，讓這個危機轉化為轉機，期待我們在整個醫療韌性上面，不只從需求來看而已，而是希望能夠讓這樣的國家整體戰略可以達到未來的目標，這部分不知道院長或部長有沒有相關的看法？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的指教。委員提出來的健康產業的新方向，就是我們一直在做的事情，我特別再補充的是，剛剛委員提到的幾點，第一個當然是大家最關心的疫苗，我們在健康台灣推動小組裡面也成立了國家疫苗產業推動小組，也開了兩、三次會，把產業跟我們的技術，還有怎麼樣在臺灣落實我們國產、發展國產的疫苗，這是中長期要去做的目標；以短期來講，我們在防疫的疫苗裡面，短期的供應不會有立即的影響，因為我們都是簽長期的約，所以大致上短期不會影響，但是長期來講，我們已經成立一個國家疫苗產業推動小組來進行這件事情。","至於其他醫材或者是藥品方面，我們強調也一直在推動本土化，像4月16、26號我們有公告兩個辦法，就是對於藥品，我們鼓勵學名藥在臺灣製造，建立本土的產業鏈，在中醫藥方面，我們也希望原料不要一直靠國外，希望我們臺灣有很多地方是可以有很好的產出，中西這些都要本土化，讓藥品能夠穩定，我想這個部分都是增加我們醫材、醫藥方面的韌性。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。再來我想要跟院長、部長討論有關於商保協同健保的可能性，我們知道這是一個重要議題，如何能夠來強化我們整體的，除了現有的全民健保跟商業保險以外，提供強化醫療保障第二層的健保政策險，這是由民眾自願參加的一個保險，這個其實在論壇去年已經完成了，國衛院完成這個論壇以後也已經撰寫成書，等一下我會把這本書獻給院長做個參考。這部分在討論的過程裡面，其實有一部分的阻力是來自於保險業者或者是相關的業者，所以這部分我們很希望能夠更進一步的探索政策可行性以外，能不能請院長責成政委進一步做後續的討論？最好是有財經相關的政委協助跨部會的研議，因為我們所了解的這個阻力是來自於保險業者的話，這部分的推動期待有它的未來性，不知道這部分院長可不可以有所允諾？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們健保的體系相當完整，在這個完整的前提底下，國人加入商業保險的比例也相當高，如何做兩邊的整合，現在到了可以檢討的時候，所以我所知道的，健保署也委託國衛院在做相關的規劃，但是剛剛委員所提醒的是，要把有些商業模式的概念帶進來，才能夠在未來是否可行性的評估上面得到更真實，這一點委員的建議，我們會請衛福部接受這樣的建議。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。最後一部分可能要麻煩彭部長，就是有關於醫療體系環保永續的策略，其實賴總統也非常強調節能減碳，醫療院所針對運用ESCO達到節能減碳的目標也曾經去過長庚醫院，衛環委員會也去過長庚醫院，做了相關的這些努力、了解，彭部長也希望能夠透過導入綠色金融的資源來協助ESCO，這部分部長在5、6月份可能會對外說明，可不可以利用這一次的時間讓部長有說明的機會？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。目前醫院裡面是長庚體系做得最積極，現在我們政府有兩個方式，一個是環境部負責私立的醫院、比較大型的私立醫院，公立的醫院則是經濟部在做協助，我們大部分已經開始在協助他們診斷，診斷完了之後就要媒合，那媒合，目前私立醫院走得比較順暢，公立醫院的確有一點點難度，因為基本上它的資源或是招標的形式比較難進行，資金的部分沒有問題，因為金管會協助我們，如果需要資金的話，金管會的壽險資金都可以協助，所以未來這幾個月是在媒合當中，我們希望可以達到委員的目標。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。我這邊有3個建議，包括研擬對私立醫院節能減碳有獎勵制度，另外就是研議提供公立醫院足夠的法源和預算，最後就是針對醫療機構的特殊性，能夠提供專案式的ESCO，讓醫療專業的部分可以不要和其他服務業有所競爭。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、衛福部部長、環境部部長備詢，謝謝。","接下來我們請盧縣一委員質詢，李彥秀委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1144201_00004"}}},{"id":"160970","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160970","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/db1f27f7504920264a0b77f7a9cda8205a34676b63038810cb3b2a0ceb296cfcc6a74b42f456a0955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"15:02:54 - 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台大兒童醫院它也只是一個小兒科只是它的建築物是寫兒童醫院當然就是我們希望能夠有一個國家級的兒童專責醫院如果說短期間內沒辦法這樣做的話那我們是不是可以成立一個國家兒童健康研究中心"},{"start":251.815,"end":272.302,"text":"那這個我不知道說院長知不知道就是說我們如果成立這樣的一個國家兒童健康中心現在台大醫院已經在做了可能就是說需要再更多的資源的挹注那這個兒童的健康研究中心它最主要就是用臨床可能就是從臨床"},{"start":273.482,"end":302.212,"text":"那讓我們的這個孩子能夠得到更好更好的治療更好的一個照顧那我不知道說這個請院長回答或是請部長回答是不是可以讓我們即便沒有國家的專責兒童醫院那是不是可以從這方面開始著手謝謝部長謝謝委員那我想我們要成立哪一個組織都要知道它的定位是怎麼樣"},{"start":303.46,"end":331.927,"text":"我們一個國家級的兒童健康研究中心我想台大醫院的童人的兒童真的是非常關心兒童的發展不管是在兒童醫療的品質以及他整個研究持續包括他的小孩安全、意外的防範以及整個怎麼樣育兒長大那成立一個研究中心這樣的一個方向其實是很"},{"start":333.573,"end":360.114,"text":"是應該要支持那現在目前其實要確定它是它如果是研究計畫其實它在國科會或相關的機構其實都可以來做研究所以我想我們在三月多王正熙委員跟黃委員這邊都有關心開了公聽會那我們就邀請了辦公室委員的辦公室也邀請了教育部、國發會還有衛福部我們共同來研究這樣的一個"},{"start":362.296,"end":381.015,"text":"這樣一個當天討論的一個情況之下那當時的結論就是說我們請台大的兒醫能夠來了解再次確認一下我們的國家兒童健康研究中心他的角色以及未來對國家的一個因為是國家級的"},{"start":381.383,"end":393.972,"text":"就像當初我們在成立國家級的高零中心的時候其實雲林要成立結果宜蘭到處都是那我要成立所以你怎麼樣有一個特色"},{"start":394.568,"end":424.248,"text":"好那現在還在溝通他的特色那我們會用這一兩年當中把角色在理清楚以後我們來積極來看看怎麼樣把它做下去做得更好好 其實我當然知道院長會和部長對於這個台大的這個醫療因為很多一些急重男寒兒童的這個急重男寒症很多可能在其他縣市那他們第一想到的如果說是急症或者是"},{"start":424.928,"end":444.421,"text":"含病或是比較難醫治的大家想到就是說到台大醫院尤其是如果是這個台大兒童醫院那如果說我們今天大家認為就是說台大醫院是一個國家級的我們的一個國家級的一個非常重要的醫院那當然如果說現在目前有的兒童醫院"},{"start":445.382,"end":473.107,"text":"目前的兒童醫院並不是我們這個認為說是一個國家級的一個專責的兒童醫院所以我希望就是說如果未來這個國家級的專責兒童醫院需要投入更多的資源那當然就是說可以從臨床上面就是這樣的一個兒童的健康研究中心那他們可能收治更多急重男罕症的這樣的一個疾病那可以提供給其他醫院"},{"start":473.827,"end":495.039,"text":"其他這個兒童醫院或其他的兒童的這個診所能夠有更多的這個經驗的一些這個經驗的一個分享或者是如果遇到這個急重難寒的話要怎麼醫治所以我希望就是說部長或院長是不是可以去可以做這樣的一個承諾未來現在台大已經在做了是已經在做了"},{"start":495.279,"end":522.629,"text":"他們現在已經在做了只是說需要有更多的資源的挹注而且這個資源這個經費的挹注並不需要這麼的多所以我們希望說院長是不是可以做個承諾感謝委員的關心台大以前有曾經函報過教育部因為台大是屬於教育部系統對於成立一個兒童的國家健康研究中心要把台大的兒醫第二期的規劃做一個先期規劃的報告書那這個部分在2023年"},{"start":525.205,"end":549.478,"text":"也曾經教育部編了700多萬的經費來做一個規劃的研究那在今年年底就會完成這個規劃我想我們會持續一步步的推進部長你至於在2018年你自己也開過記者會你還記得你2018年開過的記者會嗎你提出了一個三點這三點就是說要成立一個兒童的特別委員會"},{"start":550.518,"end":567.742,"text":"或者是說要指定就是國家級的兒童健康研究中心那再來就是說能夠這個政策然後這個遵循聯合國兒童基金然後包括就是擴大一些托育照顧減免稅收育兒津貼這樣子這個是2018年當時邱委員開的記者會那現在部長你現在已經貴為部長了"},{"start":574.443,"end":592.416,"text":"那我剛提到的這部分可能就是這個兒童健康研究中心我希望就是說是不是可以在近期內趕快讓趕快由國家的這個資源來挹注然後趕快來上路那另外一點就是說我們一直"},{"start":593.317,"end":622.212,"text":"认为所有的儿童不论是社福或者是儿童的保护都是散落在各地散落在各个单位尤其这个凯凯案发生的时候大家会觉得说这个儿虐我们一旦是发生这个儿虐的话如果是家外儿虐的话我们还要去厘清就是说施虐者他的身份譬如说他是教师或者是他是保姆或者是托婴中心"},{"start":623.392,"end":646.903,"text":"你還要再去這樣子去分別因為他所管轄的單位不一樣所以我在5月10號可能有一些家長要上凱道做一些訴求那我是不是可以請院長這邊也要做一些回應就是說我們是不是可以成立成立兒童的專責單位或者是兒少的專責單位目前"},{"start":651.292,"end":676.697,"text":"衛福部有在進行相關的規劃我記得之前的匯報是說在五、六月份的時候他們會有一個具體的建議案出來是要用一個什麼樣的專責單位的這個級別機關或者怎麼樣來設計五、六月份是不是部長說明一下好 謝謝謝委員我想衛福部一直持續規劃跟設置而哨的一個專責的一個單位"},{"start":679.618,"end":695.625,"text":"即使是跨本部現在相關的司署執掌並涉及業務調整人力的運動還有衛政跟社政的合作所以因為涉及到組織的重整所以我們現在非常積極的一直在討論持續來審證來評估看怎麼做來做規劃我們會全力以赴"},{"start":702.682,"end":726.868,"text":"所以你們未來會朝向有一個兒童的一個專責單位嗎兒少的一個專責單位嗎會朝這樣子的方向來努力是院長剛剛我一開始讓你看到這樣子這十年來的新生兒人數就是要讓院長跟部長知道就是說我們所有的這個新生兒所有的這個"},{"start":729.369,"end":749.458,"text":"就是我們要從小就要去做好保護即便這個新生兒的人數越來越少那我剛剛講的從醫療從這個所有的兒童政策孩子一個都不能少所以我是不是可以再請院長就我剛剛講的這個兒少的專責單位"},{"start":751.019,"end":765.496,"text":"是不是我們需要是不是未來有這樣的一個專責單位而不是說我們一旦發生兒少的議題那你還要去釐清說這個到底是哪一個單位管的"},{"start":766.483,"end":782.262,"text":"剛剛部長已經說過現在朝這個方向在演繹我也知道最近就會有一個具體的建議案出來再不變動現在整個國家三級機關的數量情況底下能不能做一些整併這個是現在的想法除了衛福部之外"},{"start":783.561,"end":806.069,"text":"我也請陳時中政委來協助加快這個速度的推動其實這個不只是現在的邱部長在邱部長前面的薛瑞元部長在更前面的陳時中部長或者是在更前面的林州元部長其實在任內都有提到就是說需要有一個兒童的專責單位那我們在這個之前"},{"start":807.029,"end":832.781,"text":"我們的這個兒童局在內政部1999年就設立一個兒童局那因為主改的關係2013年直接併到我們的這個社家署那其實把所有的兒童的議題全部很多人會認為就是說那兒童這麼重要孩子這麼重要那既然是由社家署來管那一旦發生事情的話你還要再去釐清到底是哪一個單位是主責"},{"start":833.801,"end":852.767,"text":"所以我在這邊是不是請院長跟部長針對這一部分我們真的要好好的去思考那既然在歷任的這個部長都有提到就是說我們需要有一個兒童的專責單位那是不是可以請院長就是說可以在這邊也做一個承諾那未來我們需要"},{"start":853.607,"end":882.829,"text":"就是只是在把它恢復而已啦恢復它原本如果是以前的兒童局或是現在未來是不是有什麼兒童司或兒少的什麼樣的單位都可以就是要有一個主責單位有一個專責的單位謝謝委員長期關心兒少跟少子女化的問題我們現在研究的方案方式就跟委員的想法也是一致的我會請陳時中政委跟衛福部邱部長一起盡快時間內把它成為一個定案"},{"start":883.506,"end":888.04,"text":"這個定案以後我們會跟社會再做溝通盡量把它在最快的時間完成"},{"start":888.305,"end":917.483,"text":"好那部長我剛提到有我們的這個兒童醫療那還有我們的兒童的專責單位那我想就是說請院長也要去關心因為我們知道說兒童的這個醫療其實有很多這個兒醫這個兒童這個兒科的醫師其實他們很多就不願意不願意再投入這樣的兒科的醫療這個應該院長跟部長都非常的清楚那如果說這個環境沒有做好的話其實"},{"start":919.364,"end":943.435,"text":"會讓這個兒童的這個醫療未來會陷入更大的一個困境所以我們希望就是說希望政府能夠正視這個問題然後投入更多的這個資源在我們的這個兒童醫療上面那之前我有在委員會的時候也有特別提到就是說我們的疫苗的處置費那這個疫苗處置費是跟其他鄰近國家來比確實是非常少的"},{"start":957.931,"end":961.214,"text":"好好謝謝黃秀芳委員的質詢謝謝謝謝卓院長衛福部長備詢謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":197,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（15時3分）謝謝院長，我們請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：卓院長好。卓院長，今天我想請教少子化的議題，1999年內政部設立兒童局負責兒少的業務，2013年因為組改的關係，所以兒童局就併到衛福部社家署，經過十幾年的時間，我們看到兒童醫療、兒童福利或者是最近的剴剴案，其實很多人一直希望兒童部分能夠有一個專責單位。我先從兒童醫療開始說起，院長，你看到的這一張是近十年臺灣新生兒的出生數，你看了自己會不會嚇一跳？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的人口政策跟人口對策一直是政府長期在關心的，我們對去年的出生率也覺得蠻憂心的。"],["黃委員秀芳：2015年到2024年的短短十年當中，從2015年的21萬3,598人到2024年的13萬4,856人，新生兒每一年都在下降。當然，行政院也提出很多的政策、兒童福利，鼓勵我們敢生敢婚，我也看到這幾年的一些政策，希望能夠鼓勵年輕人生育，雖然我們投入這麼多的資源，可是好像整個成效也不是那麼好，我是不是可以請教院長，針對這部分我們未來要怎麼樣讓新生兒的人數能夠再增加？"],["卓院長榮泰：從我們0到6歲的相關政策來看，投入的經費確實很多，包括我們的育兒津貼從5,000、6,000、7,000一直往上推，我們的托育政策也是長時間、多高額的補助，但是成效真的是有限，我想這個也是現在世界普遍存在的現象。我們現在又考慮到從社宅，從結婚、生育來多所補助、多所關懷，我們會多方面來進行，但是我認為讓已經出生的小孩子能夠得到更好的照顧跟教育，是我們目前可以馬上開始做的。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，剛剛院長有特別提到醫療方面，臺灣的孩子一個都不能少，都已經這麼少了，去年是龍年才十三萬多，所以一個都不能少。當然，臺灣的醫療，尤其是兒童的醫療，我們都希望能夠更好，但我們臺灣沒有一個國家級的兒童醫院，即便是臺大醫院……"],["卓院長榮泰：臺大兒醫。"],["黃委員秀芳：臺大兒童醫院也只是一個小兒科，只是它的建築物是寫兒童醫院。當然，我們希望能夠有一個國家級的兒童專責醫院，如果短期間內沒辦法這樣做的話，我們是不是可以成立一個國家級兒童健康研究中心？這個我不知道院長知不知道，我們如果成立這樣一個國家級兒童健康中心，現在臺大醫院已經在做了，但可能需要更多的資源挹注。這個兒童的健康研究中心，最主要的任務就是臨床研究，透過臨床研究，讓我們的孩子能夠得到更好的治療、更好的照顧。我不知道這個要請院長或是部長回答，即便我們沒有國家的專責兒童醫院，但是不是可以從這方面開始著手？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。我想我們要成立哪一個組織，都要知道它的定位是怎麼樣，要成立一個國家級的兒童健康研究中心，我想臺大醫院的同仁真的是非常關心兒童的發展，不管是在兒醫、兒童醫療的品質，以及它整個研究，包括小孩的安全、意外的防範，以及怎麼樣育兒長大，來成立一個研究中心，這樣的一個方向其實應該是要支持的。現在要確定，它如果是研究計畫，其實在國科會或相關的機構都可以來做研究。","在3月多時王正旭委員跟黃委員都有關心，也開了公聽會。委員的辦公室也邀集了教育部、國發會還有衛福部，我們共同來研究這樣的一個議題。當時的結論是我們請臺大的兒醫再去確認一下國家級兒童健康研究中心，它的角色以及它未來對國家的……因為是國家級的，就像當初我們在成立國家級的高齡醫學暨健康福祉研究中心的時候，其實是雲林要成立，結果宜蘭和其他縣市說他們也要成立，所以你怎麼樣有一個特色……"],["黃委員秀芳：好。"],["邱部長泰源：現在是還在溝通它的特色，我們會在這一、兩年當中把角色再釐清楚以後，再積極來看要怎麼樣做下去、做得更好。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，其實我當然知道院長和部長對於臺大醫療的重視，因為很多兒童的急重難罕症，很多可能是在其他縣市，他們第一個想到的，如果是急症、罕病或者是比較難醫治的，大家想到就是到臺大醫院，尤其是臺大兒童醫院。今天大家認為臺大醫院是一個國家級的非常重要的醫院，但是目前已有的兒童醫院，並不是一個國家級專責的兒童醫院。所以我希望如果未來國家級的專責兒童醫院需要投入更多的資源，當然可以從臨床上面這樣的一個兒童健康研究中心，他們可能收治更多急重難罕症的疾病，可以提供給其他兒童醫院還有其他兒童的診所，能夠有更多經驗的分享，如果遇到急重難罕的話要怎麼醫治。所以我希望部長或院長，是不是可以做這樣的一個承諾，在未來……現在臺大已經在做了……"],["卓院長榮泰：是已經在做了。"],["黃委員秀芳：他們現在已經在做了，只是需要有更多資源的挹注，而且這個經費的挹注並不需要這麼多啦！所以我們希望院長是不是可以做個承諾？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，感謝委員的關心。臺大以前曾經函報過教育部，因為臺大是屬於教育部系統，對於成立一個國家兒童健康研究中心，要把臺大兒醫第二期做一個先期規劃的報告書。這個部分在2023年教育部曾經編了七百多萬的經費來做規劃的研究，在今年年底就會完成這個規劃，我想我們會持續一步一步推進。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。部長，你自己在2018年也開過記者會，你還記得2018年開過的記者會嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：你提出三點，這三點就是要成立一個兒童的特別委員會；以及要指定國家級的兒童健康研究中心；再來就是政策能夠遵循聯合國兒童基金會暨經濟合作發展組織報告的內容，包括擴大托育照顧、減免稅收、育兒津貼。這個是2018年當時邱委員開的記者會，現在你已經貴為部長了，我剛剛提到兒童健康研究中心，我希望是不是可以在近期內趕快挹注國家的資源，然後趕快上路？","另外一點，我們一直認為所有的兒童，不論是社福或者是兒童的保護都是散落在各個單位，尤其剴剴案發生的時候，大家會覺得……我們一旦發生兒虐，如果是家外兒虐的話，我們還要去釐清施虐者的身分，譬如說他是教師或者是他是保母或者是托嬰中心，你還要再去分別，因為相關管轄的單位不一樣。在5月10號有一些家長要上凱道做訴求，是不是可以請院長也做一些回應？我們是不是可以成立兒童的專責單位或者是兒少的專責單位？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前衛福部有在進行相關的規劃，我記得之前的會報是在5、6月份的時候，他們會有具體的建議案出來，是要用一個什麼樣的專責單位的級別、機關或者怎麼樣來設計，是不是請部長說明一下？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。我想衛福部一直持續規劃跟設置兒少專責的單位，而兒少的業務即使是跨本部，現在相關的司署職掌因為涉及業務調整及人力的異動，還有衛政跟社政的合作，以及組織的重整，所以我們現在非常積極、一直在討論，持續審慎評估看怎麼規劃，我們會全力以赴。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以未來你們會朝向有一個兒童的專責單位嗎？兒少的一個專責單位嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：會朝這樣子的方向努力。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。院長，我剛剛一開始讓你看到這十年來的新生兒人數，就是要讓院長跟部長知道，我們所有的新生兒、所有的孩子，要從小就要做好保護，即便新生兒的人數越來越少，我剛剛講的，不管是從醫療及所有的兒童政策，孩子一個都不能少，所以我是不是可以再請院長，就我剛剛講的，我們未來是不是需要一個兒少的專責單位，而不是一旦發生兒少議題還要去釐清這個到底是哪一個單位管的？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛部長已經說過，現在朝這個方向研議，我也知道最近就會有一個具體的建議案出來，在不變動現在整個國家三級機關數量的情況底下，看能不能做一些整併，這個是現在的想法。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：除了衛福部之外，我也會請陳時中政委協助加快推動的速度。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，其實不只是現在的邱部長，在邱部長前面的薛瑞元部長，以及更前面的陳時中部長或者是在更前面的林奏延部長，其實他們在任內都有提到需要有一個兒童的專責單位，之前內政部在1999年就設立了一個兒童局，但因為組改的關係，2013年直接併到社家署，把所有的兒童議題全部……很多人認為兒童這麼重要、孩子這麼重要，既然是由社家署來管，一旦發生事情的話，還要再去釐清到底是哪一個單位主責，所以我在這邊是不是請院長跟部長針對這一部分，我們真的要好好的思考，既然歷任部長都有提到我們需要一個兒童的專責單位，是不是可以請院長在這邊承諾，未來如果我們需要……其實就只是把它恢復而已，恢復它原本……如果是以前的兒童局或是未來是不是有什麼兒童司還是兒少的單位都可以，就是要有一個主責單位、有一個專責的單位。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員長期關心兒少跟少子女化的問題，我們現在研究的方案及方式跟委員的想法是一致的，我會請陳時中政委跟衛福部邱部長一起，儘快在時間內把它成為一個定案，定案以後，我們會再跟社會溝通，儘量把它在最快的時間完成。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。部長，我剛剛提到兒童醫療還有兒童的專責單位，我想請院長也要關心，因為我們知道關於兒童的醫療，其實有很多兒科醫師不願意再投入兒科的醫療，院長跟部長應該都非常的清楚，如果這個環境沒有做好的話，未來會讓兒童醫療陷入更大的困境，所以我們希望政府能夠正視這個問題，然後投入更多資源在我們的兒童醫療上面。","之前我在委員會的時候也有特別提到我們的疫苗處置費，這個疫苗處置費跟其他鄰近國家來比確實是非常的少，所以我也希望衛福部針對疫苗處置費的部分，能夠給所有的基層醫師或者是醫院一些回應，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝委員，我們再書面答復委員。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長及衛福部長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來請王正旭委員質詢，請盧縣一委員準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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如果刷卡更好這個卡是我的卡或者他的家人的卡 對不對一拿出來就一槍斃命了就不用解釋那麼多了如果拿出來的結果 欸 這不是喔這個發票是經濟部的發票號碼喔 那就問題就很大條囉那問題就很大條囉這個 你同意我的說法吧你不必替他講話沒關係 你同意我的說法吧"},{"start":137.342,"end":163.916,"text":"所以我說 郭部長對外說明了如果外界還有疑慮外界說明 我有疑慮 我還有疑慮我的疑慮就是show me the evidence給我證據 發票嘛invoice一看 清清楚楚清清楚楚這張審買單 清楚 它不可能是偽照它一定清楚的大家秀出那一張 空白的大家都沒有共啊或者他拿出來 拿來 我拿來一定吃飯"},{"start":165.12,"end":189.757,"text":"我的卡 刷卡 刷這筆金額就清楚 好 我們來看齁台幣狂飆啊 出口很慘啊股會雙殺啊財源啊 放無薪假越來越多我們幾天啊5月22到現在漲了10%什麼意思等於跟關稅談判我們無意中加了10%"},{"start":191.527,"end":214.215,"text":"我看到了媒體報導 我們爭取到10%-15%的這個關稅對等關稅 爭取這樣子啦但是如果加10%上去就是20%-25%你現在提出一個特別條例原來我們不支持你啊你說880 我們說不夠啊 應該編到2000"},{"start":217.794,"end":233.372,"text":"結果你客氣了只編930其他編一些都跟這個沒有關係的我們黨團編了一個沒有關係的不要你要編什麼任性啊你就追加預算 我也支持"},{"start":234.431,"end":260.08,"text":"我在這裡講 增加台灣的本土及社會的韌性 絕對支持但是應該放最佳預算不應該放在特別預算裡面特別預算就是針對這次受到關稅的影響所以我們加一個 現在外銷不好啦外銷已經 外匯死一片啦台中的工具企業"},{"start":262.882,"end":290.768,"text":"叫什麼哀鴻騙爺啊真的是啊他沒有做那麼多欸台積電毛利的損失4% 6%大家外銷產業都很慘了都很慘這時候五星價然後工廠倒退會越來越多這時候擴大內需此時其也啊擴大內需擴大內需所以每個人加一萬塊很有道理啊"},{"start":293.049,"end":316.148,"text":"在蔡英文執政的時候一號經濟條件的條例特別條例就有這樣的六成那時候朱成敏說了六千塊可以創造GPP增加零點算不算按照朱成敏的算法是民進黨執政很重要的一個主計長做很久"},{"start":317.401,"end":345.959,"text":"他的算法 我如果加一萬塊 增加GDP0.5倍擴大內需 經濟學你一定讀過嘛多少你也知道 你行政院長 各位行政院長從經濟的發展 GDP很重要的 一個出口一個內需 一個公共投資一個投資 非常重要的幾條腿所以這時候擴大內需非常重要 你給他錢"},{"start":347.466,"end":350.929,"text":"他會去晃 因為東西漲價啦東西漲價啦 這個你可以回答一下我最後一個問題 這個是我們國民黨團體的版本今天互論喔 我們一起來審查如果表決通過我們的版本民眾黨要發六千 我們發一萬"},{"start":372.998,"end":380.261,"text":"那最少談一談嘛 大家各讓一步八千也好啊一家五口就有四萬塊可以落袋啊"},{"start":381.574,"end":410.253,"text":"從人家來講的話 很補的我現在因為要被罷免了 到處在跑基層啊都聽到一個聲音啊 內委員啊那個啊 發議院會什麼時候發啊我聽了很心酸啊 我說一定會再努力啦但是民進黨的這個執政黨 特別是左龍泰院長都一直反對咧 賴清德也反對咧啊你拿他這個輸贏我說不是這樣講啦 又不是要去打架 講道理我們要說服院長"},{"start":411.821,"end":417.365,"text":"報告委員 發現金對政府來講是最簡單的事情不用做其他事情 就是現金發了而已但對國家真的好嗎"},{"start":428.78,"end":431.341,"text":"我們應該要匯集所有的力量 針對各種產業做直接的支持把一萬塊發給每一個人"},{"start":449.25,"end":453.674,"text":"把五千塊發給手中沒有五千塊的國人這樣比較有他的效益"},{"start":467.193,"end":478.746,"text":"我們會在討論的過程中我不要提問你我們會在討論的過程中去履歷真希望大家能夠體認只有集中不降的力量現在才是最好的方法就是把力量分我到七成區大家都要放一萬我接觸到人都比較窮啦你接觸到人都比較有錢我知道到"},{"start":485.066,"end":500.601,"text":"你這做比較有錢啊現在我都要你這個答案就是如果我通過了要發現金你還是要提富裕 就這樣子你答案是這樣子嗎會在討論的過程當中會在討論要不要提富裕沒有 總院長你會被罵死被窮人罵死"},{"start":505.586,"end":520.092,"text":"我接觸的都是窮人比較多苦人比較多你接觸的有錢人比較多快樂人比較多連有錢人都發一萬塊怎麼窮人罵我呢下一個題目因為你反對啊因為你連有錢人都發一萬塊啊你反對啊來來來"},{"start":525.502,"end":552.33,"text":"這個我另外教授你一個風俗啦昨天AIT的處長 台北處長古立言才說啦向美國買核能解方他幫你處理核安的問題 你講的要啟動核能要幫你處理核廢料他幫你處理啦這個昨天休天的 昨天晚上發的AIT的新聞稿"},{"start":553.561,"end":568.404,"text":"他還幫你這個老人 我今天早上算很久了咧找了幾個合工專家算了一下請問你知不知道我們現在現有的核電廠裡面還有地方可以放機組 你知道嗎你不知道核電廠的範圍當然是很大的裡面還可以放機組 你知道嗎我們要如何看待這些空間來 比如說 核二機場原來放四部機組"},{"start":583.802,"end":609.158,"text":"設計的時候四部機組但它只有放兩部核三要放六部它只放兩部所以這兩個加起來就可以放六部的機組六部的核電的機組一個機組呢發電量可以放多少79億度啊加起來可以79億度"},{"start":611.018,"end":617.86,"text":"每一部的機組花多少錢 兩千億所以六部就花一兆兩千萬院長 我們的談判團正在跟美國談你要跟他講 我跟你買核電啊 給你去工廠給你蓋 那個機組你來蓋安全你負責 核電你負責 運轉你負責我們現在不是抱美國大腿嗎 通通給他負責"},{"start":640.558,"end":660.688,"text":"你有什麼好擔心的 馬上我們的關稅 說不定就減下來了這是教你啊 這麼好的房子我昨天晚上想了很久這個好啊 太好了 太好了一兆兩千億 就是美國要的一兆兩千億 美金多少 四百億"},{"start":662.21,"end":686.906,"text":"我們去年賺到多少?739億他要我們負擔370億我們這個因為匯率提升所以400億完全滿足美國的需要啊說不定關稅可以攤位零喔你要不要感謝我一下請叫如果我們的談判團隊只有這麼一個方案的話不容易得到國人的支持其中之一不是只有這個方案其中之一"},{"start":687.79,"end":713.61,"text":"如果這個方案不能為台灣的核廢料的敘述問題跟我們的核安得到保障的話也不能美國幫你保障啊 你不相信美國喔你依美論喔 你依美論喔你依美論喔 你依美論喔他會請美國處理 他說可以處理 你自己讀一讀內容他樂意幫助台灣解決核廢料儲存的挑戰"},{"start":715.438,"end":744.71,"text":"你的問題他都能幫你解決了 河岸的問題解決了河外的問題解決 你的行 他幫你運轉都可以 他要做你這個生意啊我給你 你看 我對你多好啊 他幫你想答案啊談判團隊備託的方案是全面性的 全面性的我們的談判決定沒有想過這個 因為這個昨天才發出來的他要這個東西 美國人清楚 他要這筆生意他要這筆生意 你就給他嘛"},{"start":745.896,"end":764.706,"text":"一兆兩千你就給他嘛阿拉斯卡四百多億美金在他的盆土裡面從高山上天然氣下來蓋那個錢我們都願意負擔啊那個是他國家的建設我們都提了負擔了這一筆錢為什麼不能負擔一兆兩千億"},{"start":766.116,"end":775.882,"text":"答應他的核電問題解決要蓋核電同時我告訴你你那個一千億台幣的補助就有希望爭取到在野黨的支持一堅疑不苟 朦朧堅勢可憐我們一再強調新的核能技術我們都願意公開討論好 再看下一題齁這個你不要回答了因為你不是賴清德賴清德的總統對台幣暴升了"},{"start":796.749,"end":825.194,"text":"我認為朱立倫好歹是專業NYU的博士 會計學博士 搞財經的講專業的 還給我小看說因為政治人物的攻防造成市場的誤導跟非理性的預期心理耐心的就說是非常惡劣的現在因為搞大罷免 搞到怎麼樣搞到已經街頭巷尾都快打架了"},{"start":826.664,"end":834.671,"text":"你來罷免 你罷免 你罷免 你罷免你罷免 你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免你罷免"},{"start":852.902,"end":874.307,"text":"街頭巷尾都在吵架這樣的畫面屢見不鮮這個讓台灣民主倒退到獨裁國家就是賴清德這一段的歷史全世界第一個執政黨發動罷免在野黨的國會議員就是賴清德他是歷史的罪人"},{"start":875.291,"end":895.039,"text":"還要走向獨裁這個全國人民要唾棄賴清德這種行為難怪人家說現在反清復明反對賴清德恢復台灣的民主叫反清復明好 我們再看 請那個衛福部長時間暫停 麻煩請衛福部長備選"},{"start":906.237,"end":924.792,"text":"我就問你簡單的一個問題而已 間斷 時間有限川普總統說要 藥品關稅要課 到底什麼藥品你知道我最新的消息 你都不精準控我我怪人家說要換掉你喔 我都希望你不要被換喔你知道我的問題嗎"},{"start":929.861,"end":947.128,"text":"川普最近剛剛簽了說要對所有的醫藥品課稅 課關稅你知道嗎你都不盡有狀況 像二人子一樣還當部長咧 要怎麼辦我們的醫療 藥品的準備相當的充分這樣的部長我希望都能下去做"},{"start":966.056,"end":967.437,"text":"接下來我們請黃秀芳委員執行 王振旭委員請準備"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":136,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（14時46分）謝謝主席、韓院長、卓院長以及各位先進，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：院長好。我質詢一向都很客氣啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：所以如果我沒有要你講話，你就不要講話。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["賴委員士葆：因為我今天要問的問題很多，也拜託主席，如果我沒有請他講話，就不要講話了。","好，我們來看，郭部長被這樣修理，其實我對郭部長一直很有意見，可是如果真的是他自己出錢來宴客，不管是在哪裡請、在他的公司請，我覺得這個無可厚非，要還他清白；可是如果他拿的是公帳，那就有違官箴了。我覺得他只要拿出發票，就一張斃命了嘛！他的公司成立這麼久了，餐廳成立這麼久，一定有發票，發票拿出來給大家看，你看發票的抬頭是空白的，像我去吃飯所拿到的發票都是空白的，因為我沒有公司可以報，所以是空白的，這就是我個人出錢的，很簡單，如果是刷卡更好，這張卡是他自己的卡或者是他家人的卡，對不對？一拿出來就一槍斃命，就不用解釋那麼多了。如果拿出來的結果發現這不是，這個發票是經濟部的發票號碼，那問題就很大條了，你同意我的說法吧？你不必替他講話沒關係，你同意我的說法吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我說郭部長對外說明了，如果外界還有疑慮……"],["賴委員士葆：對外界說明了，可是我還有疑慮，因為我有疑慮，所以就給我證據（show me the evidence），發票（invoice）一看就清清楚楚，可以清清楚楚的看到這張是誰買單，非常的清楚，不可能去偽造，一定是清楚的，對不對？他就show出那一張空白的，大家就沒話講了，或者是他拿出來，我是哪一天吃飯，我刷卡是刷這筆金額，就很清楚了！","好，我們來看臺幣狂飆，出口很慘啊！股匯雙殺啊！裁員、放無薪假也越來越多，才幾天的時間，我們從5月2日到現在漲了10%，什麼意思？等於在關稅談判我們無意中加了10%，我看到媒體報導，我們爭取到10%至15%的對等關稅，但是如果加10%上去就是20%至25%。","你現在提出一個特別條例，原來我們都支持你，你說880億，我們說不夠，應該編到2,000億，結果你客氣了只編930億，其他編一些都跟這個沒有關係的。我們黨團編了一個，沒有關係的不要，你要編什麼韌性，你就追加預算，我也支持，我在這裡講，增加臺灣的本土及社會韌性絕對支持，但是應該要追加預算，不應該放在特別預算裡面，特別預算是針對這一次受到關稅的影響。所以我們加一個，現在外銷都不好了，外銷因為外匯死一片，臺中的工具機業哀鴻遍野，真的是啊！它沒有賺那麼多，台積電的毛利也損失4%至6%，外銷產業都很慘，這時候無薪假、工廠倒閉的會越來越多，這時候擴大內需，此時期也，擴大內需、擴大內需，所以每個人加1萬塊很有道理啊！","在蔡英文執政的時候，疫後經濟特別條例就加了6,000，那時候朱澤民說6,000塊可以創造GDP增加0.3%。他是民進黨執政很重要的一個主計長，做很久了，按照他的算法，加1萬塊可以增加GDP0.5%，擴大內需，經濟學你一定讀過，多少你也知道，你貴為行政院長，對經濟發展、GDP很重要的組成：一個出口、一個內需、一個公共投資、一個投資，這是非常重要的幾條腿，所以這時候擴大內需非常重要，你給他錢，他會去花，因為東西漲價了，這個你可以回答一下嗎？我只有問一個問題，這個是我們國民黨黨團提的版本，今天付委了，我們一起來審查，如果表決通過我們的版本，民眾黨要發6,000，我們發1萬，最少談一談，大家各讓一步，8,000也好，一家五口就有4萬塊可以落袋，對窮人家來講的話很補。","我現在因為要被罷免了，到處在跑基層，我聽到一個聲音，他們問：賴委員，1萬塊什麼時候發？我聽了很心酸，我說：一定會再努力，但是執政黨民進黨，特別是卓榮泰院長都一直反對，賴清德也反對。他們問：你們人那麼多怎麼會輸他們？我說：不是這樣講的，又不是要去打架，而是要講道理，我們要說服院長。你回應一下，好不好？就只回答一個問題，如果我們通過了要發現金，你要不要提覆議？就這樣子。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，發現金對政府來講是最簡單的事情，不用做其他事情，就是現金發了而已。"],["賴委員士葆：很好啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：但對國家真的好嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：當然好啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：對國家真的好嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：朱澤民已經講了很好啊，增加0.3%，6000可以增加0.3%。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，現在跟那個時候的狀況不一樣，你不覺得現在我們應該要匯集所有的力量，針對各種產業做直接的支持……"],["賴委員士葆：你們灌水很多，你們的預算灌水很多耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是那個想法，把1萬塊發給每一個人，不如把5,000塊發給手中沒有5,000塊的國人，這樣比較有它的效益，我現在希望集合……"],["賴委員士葆：報告院長，我希望你不要再講了，我請你講就講，請你不要講就不要講，我時間要控制一下。","我就問你，如果通過你要不要提覆議？你回答這個問題，要不要提覆議？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會在討論的過程當中據理力爭，希望大家能夠體認，只有集中國家的力量才是現在最好的方法，而不是把力量分散。"],["賴委員士葆：可是我到基層去，大家都要發1萬，我接觸到的人比較窮，你接觸到的人都比較有錢。"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道這個想法得到大家……"],["賴委員士葆：我現在就要你這個答案，如果通過了要發現金，你還是要提覆議，就這樣子，你的答案是這樣子嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會在討論的過程當中據理力爭、詳細說明。"],["賴委員士葆：會再討論要不要提覆議，是這樣吧？卓院長，你會被罵死，被窮人罵死！我接觸的都是窮人比較多、苦人比較多，你接觸的有錢人比較多、快樂的人比較多，所以你都不要……"],["卓院長榮泰：連有錢人都發1萬塊，窮人怎麼會罵我呢？"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！換一個題目、下一個題目。因為你反對啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：因為你連有錢人都發1萬塊啊！"],["賴委員士葆：你反對啊！另外，我要送你一個分數，昨天AIT的臺北處長谷立言才說：向美國買核能解方。他幫你處理核安的問題，你說要啟動核能，他會幫你處理核廢料，他幫你處理啊！這是昨天晚上熱騰騰發的AIT新聞稿，他還幫你這個……我今天早上算很久耶！找了幾個核工專家算了一下，請問你知不知道，我們現有的核電廠裡面還有地方可以放機組，你知道嗎？你不知道？"],["卓院長榮泰：核電廠的範圍當然是很大，我們現在是……"],["賴委員士葆：裡面還可以放機組，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們要如何看待這些空間的議題……"],["賴委員士葆：比如說，核二廠原來設計的時候放4部機組，但它只放2部，核三廠要放6部，它只放2部，所以兩個加起來就可以放6部核電的機組，一個機組的發電量可以發多少？79億度啊！加起來可以發79億度；每一部機組花多少錢？2,000億，所以6部就花1兆2,000億。","院長，我們的談判團正在跟美國談，你要跟他講：我跟你買核電，工廠及機組由你來蓋，安全你負責、核電你負責、運轉你負責。我們現在不是抱美國大腿嗎？通通給他負責，你有什麼好擔心的，我們的關稅說不定馬上就減下來了，這是教你啊！這麼好的方式，我昨天晚上想了很久，這個好啊！太好了！太好了！1兆2,000億就是美國要的，1兆2,000億是美金多少？400億。我們去年賺到多少？739億，他要我們負擔370億，因為匯率提升，所以是400億，完全滿足美國的需要啊！說不定關稅可以談為零喔！你要不要感謝我一下？請講。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果我們的談判團隊只有這麼一個方案的話，不容易得到國人的支持。"],["賴委員士葆：其中之一，不是只有這個方案，其中之一！"],["卓院長榮泰：如果這個方案不能讓臺灣核廢料的去處問題跟我們的核安得到保障的話，也不能……"],["賴委員士葆：美國幫你保障了！你不相信美國喔？你疑美論喔！你疑美論喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：要看清楚這裡講……"],["賴委員士葆：你疑美論喔！你疑美論喔！他會請美國處理，他說可以處理，你仔細讀一讀內容，他樂意幫助臺灣解決核廢料貯存的挑戰，你的問題他都能幫你解決，核安的問題解決了、核廢料的問題解決了，如果你會擔心，他幫你運轉都可以，他要做你這個生意啊！你看，我對你多好啊！都幫你想答案了！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們談判團隊備妥的方案是全面性的……"],["賴委員士葆：其中之一？我們的談判絕對沒有想到這個，因為這個是昨天才發出來的，他要這個東西，美國很清楚他要這筆生意，你就給他嘛！1兆2,000億就給他嘛！阿拉斯加花四百多億美金，在他的本土裡面，從高山上運輸天然氣下來，那筆錢我們都願意負擔了，那個是他國家的建設，我們都替他負擔了，這一筆錢1兆2,000億為什麼不能負擔？答應他了，就解決核電問題，要蓋核電；同時我告訴你，補助台電的1,000億就有希望爭取到在野黨的支持，「一兼二顧，摸蜊仔兼洗褲」。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一再強調，新的核能技術我們都願意公開討論，而且可以共同研發……"],["賴委員士葆：好，再看下一題，這個你不要回答，因為你不是賴清德。賴清德總統對於臺幣暴升……像朱立倫，好歹人家有專業，NYU會計系的博士，搞財金的、講專業的，也還是被人修理，說因為政治人物的攻防，造成市場的誤導跟非理性的預期心理，賴清德這種說法是非常惡劣的，現在因為搞大罷免，搞到怎麼樣？搞到街頭巷尾都已經快打架了，來罷免連署，不要，快要打架了！臺灣最美麗的風景就是人，臺灣的人現在變成是互相敵視，就是因為你們……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有發現這些現象……"],["賴委員士葆：你不要回答，好不好？讓我講完。臺灣現在的結果，造成彼此憎恨對方，因為你不同意我罷免，所以街頭巷尾都在吵架，這樣的畫面屢見不鮮，讓臺灣民主倒退到獨裁國家就是賴清德，這一段的歷史，全世界第一個執政黨發動罷免在野黨的國會議員就是賴清德，他是歷史的罪人，他要走向獨裁，全國人民要唾棄賴清德這一種行為，難怪人家說現在要「反清復民」，反對賴清德，恢復臺灣的民主，叫「反清復民」。","再來，請衛福部部長，他一定要來一下。"],["主席：時間暫停，麻煩請衛福部部長備詢。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：我就問你很簡單的一個問題而已，簡短，因為時間有限。川普總統說要課藥品關稅，到底什麼藥品，你知道嗎？這是最新的消息，你都不進入狀況，難怪人家說要換掉你，我都希望你不要被換，你知道我的問題嗎？川普剛剛簽了說要對所有醫藥品課關稅，你知道嗎？你都不進入狀況，像二愣子一樣，還當部長？部長，怎麼辦？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們醫材藥品的準備相當充分，我們都有做最好的準備，也會發展國內自己的製藥產業。"],["賴委員士葆：這樣的部長我希望多留下幾個，我們比較好發揮，你下臺可惜了，實際上你應該下臺的。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、衛福部部長的備詢。","接下來請黃秀芳委員質詢，王正旭委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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沒有就沒有該解釋的要把花票講清楚說明白不要經濟服務講一套他自己講一套但是不要忘了郭部長的長官就是卓院長那卓院長你要不要把這件事情把它理清楚也不要產生勞工跟各界對他有一種誤解我蠻擔心的"},{"start":386.272,"end":409.136,"text":"當然部長可以隨時走可是卓院長不要忘記你現在是中華民國最高的行政所長不能因為你的格言這樣來害到你對這件事情的執政的負面院長你認為怎麼樣根據週刊報導裡面有提到郭部長也有說明他對外有說明"},{"start":409.855,"end":427.337,"text":"如果那個參會的費用是郭部長自己來支應的話那我想就沒有什麼特別的問題他已經對外這麼說明過了好 院長你願不願意把這件事情把它釐清楚讓各界 讓勞工不要把它說我的灌勞榜又出逼囉 院長"},{"start":428.217,"end":430.059,"text":"你很多事情是有所為有所不為啦"},{"start":450.469,"end":451.83,"text":"這個我是第二個特別跟你建議啦"},{"start":466.155,"end":486.011,"text":"那另外一個我可能就要跟你談現在勞工的這些勞保福利的問題我們要感謝左院長執政的時候民進黨執政的時候連續幾年來確實在撥補方面以及該做的你們都有做"},{"start":486.551,"end":513.07,"text":"所以大家鬧得風風雨雨啊也就是勞保破產的問題在你們撥補的情況之下確實是延後很多可是整個這些架構的問題還是要改善所以我在這裡很簡單直接就特別請教我們卓院長到底你對於撥補有在做"},{"start":514.131,"end":528.223,"text":"那勞保條例的66條是把它加上去法定撥補但是在這裡 院長我們沒有要你固定要撥補多少就是沒人要撥補但是69條"},{"start":531.166,"end":554.238,"text":"69條就是政府你曾經講過很多次政府要負起這個責任有沒有可能就讓勞工很明確的就是入伙那本席也跟幾位我們同事都已經有提66條的修訂就是固定法定要撥補撥補多少金額由行政院去做決定"},{"start":554.858,"end":577.498,"text":"第二個69條就是確定給付也就是政府要確定給付這已經幾十年來修華當中都認為小事可是這一千一百多個勞工的情況之下給他一個入華的保障這是對勞工是一個安定的院長你針對這些你有什麼看法"},{"start":578.178,"end":593.626,"text":"修法的問題請部長說明我跟委員報告過去幾年來我們包括疫後的特別條例一共撥補勞保3800億我想從以前到現在到以後歷任的執政者都不會把勞工的問題置之不理"},{"start":594.127,"end":613.501,"text":"我們都會把勞工當作國家重要的資產我們對勞保的最終條件每一任的政府未來也是一樣一定會承擔起來修法的問題部長可以說明我的理由很簡單你同不同意入華保障所有的勞工我跟委員報告"},{"start":614.942,"end":641.178,"text":"勞保是國家來辦的社會保險所以不管入不入法政府都會來負擔最終責任是 好那我們也會來視政府的財政狀況來持續的辦理撥補那我知道委員其實也有提案就是說關於最終責任的入法的部分我們是覺得這部分第一個是尊重第二個我們也覺得是可以有討論的空間是 來 燕子"},{"start":642.096,"end":650.757,"text":"一句話 你反對入華以否我只要你聽你這句話因為你們本來都有在做啊"},{"start":651.715,"end":676.95,"text":"不管未來是誰執政你只是對勞工有保障但是 院長我特別要提醒你從來的行政院長認為這都是小事但是我必須要跟院長建議以重心長勞工需要的就是法令的保障他知道你們有在做但是你同不同意入法的當中同不同意"},{"start":677.557,"end":684.289,"text":"入法可以一步一步的來研議但是我跟委員報告政府跟勞工的關係這種終身的保障"},{"start":685.452,"end":711.385,"text":"我只在乎一張契約你們不會放棄對不對我只不在乎一張契約這個契約很重要我們終身保證職位老公要的不多老公是一個寶藏跟一個肝臟這個當然你們都有在做啦都具體做到所以這些東西當然是替勞工去爭取這些入華是對他們一個寶藏"},{"start":713.886,"end":735.756,"text":"保障因為你們都有在做確實你們也有在做這個我到哪邊跟勞工宣導我說不管任何一個政黨民進黨有做的我就支持他民進黨沒有做的我當然批評他可是院長我已經跟你講這件事情你們有做我到哪邊宣導我就跟他講民進黨在執政的時候撥補是撥補給其他政黨還多這個我都幫你們講話你可以去問勞工啊"},{"start":742.879,"end":760.522,"text":"所以 院長 我希望你不要阻擋這些入法這些入法對勞工是只有一個防範用法律概念 我們的意識實現已經一定一直在實現這點我不要跟你辯論我也不會懷疑 我們一定有這樣的心"},{"start":761.022,"end":776.036,"text":"所以修法的問題 入法的問題可以慢慢去研究但是我們每年該做的會一定把它做到從過去到現在都如此這個入法 這個入法是對勞工一個切身的保障其實你們有在做 你們怕什麼入法"},{"start":776.856,"end":805.171,"text":"這個也跟中華民國的任何權利都沒有關這是勞工的權利所以這點我要建議這個卓院長在這個部分你要很明確的來支持因為修法當然有一定步驟也不是說今天馬上做就馬上做但是我不希望行政單位來反對這個就不好啦這個就不好所以卓院長好另外一個我想那個"},{"start":806.84,"end":820.64,"text":"其實警消組工會啊這個是一個大問題但是這裡面有兩點一就是罷工前二就是植栽的確保在這個部分我還是希望卓院長"},{"start":821.843,"end":843.077,"text":"每天這樣吵倒不如好好研究一下所以過去教師也是不能組工會那那個時候我很清楚到最後他們沒有罷工錢當然這裡面有一部分的人是公務人員是用公務人員服務法這個都可以談所以我還是要拜託卓院長在這個"},{"start":844.998,"end":872.117,"text":"確確實實 主公會並非洪水猛獸所以好好去談一下不要踩得那麼硬 我在想洪部長 你站在保障勞工的立場你也不會反對 但是確實這裡面有很多值得大家去商討的大家去商討 所以我還是再度建議 卓院長在這個部分就大家要共同跨部會的去研究 到底"},{"start":873.243,"end":894.244,"text":"成立以否有什麼利弊要去做分析以現在政府的心態他好像主公會就是洪水門座這沒有必要的我們說實在這沒必要這些東西都是我們內政我們內部的問題所以都沒有牽涉從警消人員的福利我們來加強著手"},{"start":894.804,"end":903.412,"text":"那麼景蕭因為他是有公法上特殊的職務關係我們希望如果能夠走協會的方式一同來並同協會現在就有嘛協會就沒有華澤嘛來強化協會的功能這個是目前認為比較可行那些穩定社會的必須我是以重心長"},{"start":914.622,"end":935.289,"text":"在這個部分就是公務人員服務法以及工會勞動商法這兩者之間當然還有一件但是我建議你就大家坐下來好好談這樣總是有一天會解決那大多數的聲音是認為說保持現狀那這個也是一個解決之道啊"},{"start":935.609,"end":959.334,"text":"不要每一次就覺得我們卓內閣都是在反對這一點我是真的啦但是請委員協助我們好好地來溝通對啦 這個溝通一下才會解決啦好不好 院長好 部長好 謝謝林國成委員質詢謝謝卓院長 勞動部長備詢好 謝謝接下來登記第二號 第三號李昆哲"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（14時30分）謝謝院長。請卓院長及勞動部洪部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長及勞動部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員國成：院長最近辛苦了！"],["卓院長榮泰：大家都辛苦了。"],["林委員國成：臺灣正逢全球的關稅以及國內的政治紛爭，可以說是蠟燭兩頭燒。本席感同身受，也了解院長你的辛勞，但我還是建議院長要拋開政治、多了解民生，另外還要給你一個建議：先安內再攘外。因為未來臺灣要往前走，我也知道院長你想要做事，但是全球整個的打壓以及大罷免等等，讓你確確實實是蠟燭兩頭燒，但我還是要給你勉勵，你的辛苦當然是為了臺灣人民要往前走，這一點我想院長你同意吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，只要內部能夠安定，我們就有全民的力量可以往外走，所以我也希望支持我們現在提出的特別條例，一起為產業支持，讓人民安心。"],["林委員國成：我一向都非常理性，該支持的我們會支持，不該支持的我們會堅持到底，這一點我要特別跟院長說明一下。","另外我要問一個話題，也就是對於勞工，經濟部長他講如果看不下去可以離開，對於這種說法，我身為一個勞工，我了解地方勞工的心聲，坦白講，反彈之大，所以我特別下情上達，讓卓院長了解這些情況。我看從卓院長執政到現在，你講話從來沒有這樣挑釁、不尊重勞工的，沒有！可是我沒有想到一個資方的經濟部長會講這種話，說實在的，我感到非常難過，也覺得非常可悲。院長，我為什麼要下情上達？這個就是要讓你特別留意，當然不是你叫他這樣講，可是確實會影響整個勞工的士氣以及對卓內閣的看法。我不曉得卓院長認為他講這句話妥當不妥當？"],["卓院長榮泰：這句話郭部長講出之後已經引起社會的注意，也有很多勞工朋友一定會感受到不夠受到尊重，所以我跟郭部長有談過，總質詢結束之後，我們會馬上利用適當的時間，儘快去跟勞工朋友表達我們具體的關心，以及對國營事業同仁夥伴們，我們用具體的行動來支持他們，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["林委員國成：關於這一點，卓院長應該知道你的內閣講錯一句話，帳是算在你這裡，而卓院長講錯一句話，則是把帳算到賴總統！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都非常小心。"],["林委員國成：所以要特別約束小心，既然立法委員理性提醒你這些，我希望卓院長要刻不容緩，儘速讓勞工釋懷。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，我們會努力做到。"],["林委員國成：或許他是無意，但是人家聽者有心，所以我身為一個勞工，我要代替一千多萬的勞工跟郭部長抗議這些，這叫做什麼？慣老闆，這不好的。"],["卓院長榮泰：我可以完全體會。"],["林委員國成：院長，這也是良心的建議。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["林委員國成：另外一個，我就感覺到很奇怪，郭部長問題一大堆，最近他請AIT吃飯，這裡面有兩個問題，現在大家都在吵，你沒有，你就要講清楚啊！關於他做的事情，我剛才已經講過，卓院長你要概括承受，現在人家就把所有閣員的所作所為都記到卓院長身上，郭部長這種做法到底是支用公費請AIT或者他自己掏腰包，現在都講不清楚。現在勞工也一直在講：立委，你上臺的時候也去問一下卓院長對這件事情是什麼看法。如果是他自己出錢，也要拿出來講清楚，不要讓勞工都覺得郭智輝已經變成慣老闆了，慣老闆就應該這樣嗎？所以我給卓院長的第二個建議是，有就有，沒有就沒有，該解釋的要把發票講清楚、說明白，不要經濟部講一套，他自己講一套。不要忘了，郭部長的長官就是卓院長，卓院長要不要把這件事情釐清楚，不要產生勞工跟各界對他有一種誤解？我們擔心的是，當然部長可以隨時走，可是卓院長不要忘記，你現在是中華民國最高的行政首長，不能因為你的閣員這樣，使這件事情害到你而變成執政的負面。院長，你認為怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：根據週刊報導，裡面有提到郭部長也有說明，他對外有說明，如果那個餐會的費用是郭部長自己來支應的話，我想就沒有什麼特別的問題，他已經對外這麼說明過了。"],["林委員國成：好。院長，你願不願意把這件事情釐清楚，讓各界、讓勞工不要認為慣老闆又出紕漏？院長，願不願意？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們大概都是同時在今天看到這些週刊的報導，今天因為我人在這裡，我早上有跟郭部長嘗試聯繫過，他說對外他的講法就是這樣的講法，我會再確實證實他的講法是真的。"],["林委員國成：卓院長，你很多事情是有所為、有所不為，不當的……"],["卓院長榮泰：這必須要查清楚。"],["林委員國成：不妥的就要馬上當機立斷，該處理就處理。去留問題我不在乎，我在乎的是把真相揭發出來，這是你卓院長應該要做的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["林委員國成：這是我第二個特別跟你建議。","另外一個，我可能就要跟你談現在勞工勞保福利的問題。我們要感謝卓院長執政的時候、民進黨執政的時候，連續幾年來確實在撥補方面以及該做的你們都有做，所以大家鬧得風風雨雨，也就是勞保破產的問題，在你們撥補的情況之下確實延後很多，可是整個架構的問題還是要改善。我在這裡很簡單，就直接請教卓院長，你對於撥補有在做，勞保條例第六十六條把法定撥補加上去，但是在這裡，院長，我們沒有要你固定撥補多少，就是每一年要撥補，但是針對第六十九條，你曾經講過很多次，政府要負起這個責任，有沒有可能就讓勞工很明確地入法？本席也跟幾位同事都已經提出第六十六條的修訂，就是固定法定要撥補，至於撥補多少、金額由行政院去做決定。第二個，第六十九條就是確定給付，也就是政府要確定給付，這已經是幾十年來修法當中都認為是小事，可是對這一千一百多萬勞工來講，給他們一個入法的保障，對勞工是安定的。院長，針對這些你有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，修法的問題稍後請部長說明。我跟委員報告，過去幾年來，包括疫後的特別條例，一共撥補勞保3,800億……"],["林委員國成：我知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：從以前到現在、到以後，歷任執政者都不會把勞工的問題置之不理，我們都會把勞工當作國家重要的資產，我們對勞保的最終責任──每一任的政府，未來也是一樣，一定會承擔起來。而修法的問題請部長跟您說明。"],["林委員國成：院長，我的理由很簡單，你同不同意入法以保障所有的勞工？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員報告，勞保是國家辦的社會保險，所以不管入不入法，政府都會負擔最終責任。"],["林委員國成：好。"],["洪部長申翰：我們也會視政府財政狀況持續辦理撥補。我知道委員其實也有提案，就是關於最終責任入法的部分，我們對於這部分，第一個，尊重；第二個，我們也覺得可以有討論的空間。"],["林委員國成：院長，一句話，你反不反對入法？我只要聽你這句話，因為你們本來都有在做，不管未來是誰執政，而且這只是對勞工有保障，但是院長我要特別提醒你，以前的行政院長認為這都是小事，但是我必須要跟院長建議，語重心長，勞工需要的就是法令的保障，他知道你們有在做，但是你同不同意入法？"],["卓院長榮泰：入法可以一步一步研議，但是我跟委員報告，關於政府跟勞工的關係，這種終身的保障不只在乎一張契約……"],["林委員國成：你們不會放棄，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：不在乎一張契約……"],["林委員國成：沒有！沒有！這個契約很重要。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們負終身保證的責任。"],["林委員國成：院長，我跟你說，勞工要的不多，勞工要的是一個保障跟一個「奇檬子」，這個當然你們都有在做……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都具體做到。"],["林委員國成：所以替勞工爭取這些東西入法是對他們的一個保障。你們都有在做，確實你們也有在做，無論到哪邊跟勞工宣導我都有說，不管是任何一個政黨，民進黨有做的，我就支持他；民進黨沒有做的，我當然批評他。院長，我已經跟你講了，這件事情你們有做，無論到哪邊宣導我就跟他講，民進黨在執政的時候，撥補的比其他政黨還多，這個我都有幫你們講話，你可以去問問勞工，所以院長，我希望你不要阻擋這個入法，這個入法對勞工只是一個保障。"],["卓院長榮泰：用法律概念來講，我們的意思實現已經一直在實現。"],["林委員國成：有啦！這點我不要再跟你辯論了，有啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員也不會懷疑我們一定有這樣的心，所以修法的問題、入法的問題可以慢慢去研究，但是我們每年該做的一定會把它做到，從過去到現在都是如此。"],["林委員國成：院長，這個入法對勞工是一個切身的保障，其實你們都有在做，你們怕什麼入法呢？這個也跟中華民國的任何權力都沒有關係，這是勞工的權利，所以這點我要建議卓院長，就這個部分，你要很明確的支持。修法當然有一定步驟，也不是今天馬上做就馬上做，但是我不希望行政單位反對，這個就不好了。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["林委員國成：另外，其實警消組工會是一個大問題，但是這裡面有兩點，一就是罷工權；二就是職災的確保。我還是希望卓院長，每天這樣吵倒不如好好研究一下，過去教師也是不能組工會，那個時候我也很清楚，到最後他們沒有罷工權，當然這裡面有一部分的人是公務人員，適用公務人員服務法，這個都可以談。所以我還是要拜託卓院長，確確實實組工會並非洪水猛獸，所以好好去談一下，不要踩得那麼硬，我想洪部長站在保障勞工的立場也不會反對，但是確實這裡面有很多值得大家去商討的，所以我還是再度建議卓院長，就這個部分大家要跨部會共同去研究到底成立與否有什麼利弊，要去分析，以現在政府的心態，好像認為組工會就是洪水猛獸，沒有必要這樣。院長，我們說實在的，沒有必要這樣，這些東西都是我們內政、我們內部的問題，所以都沒有牽涉……"],["卓院長榮泰：對於警消人員的福利我們來加強著手，因為警消人員有公法上特殊的職務關係，我們希望如果能夠走協會的方式一同來……"],["林委員國成：現在就有協會嘛！可是協會就沒有罰則嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：強化協會的功能，我們認為目前這個比較可行，而且是穩定社會必須要做的。"],["林委員國成：院長，我是理性的跟你探討、我是語重心長，這個部分在公務員服務法以及工會勞動三法這兩者之間當然還有意見，但是我建議大家就坐下來好好談，這樣總是有一天會解決，大家多數的聲音是認為要保持現狀，這個也是一個解決之道，不要每一次就讓人覺得卓內閣都是在反對，這一點我是……"],["卓院長榮泰：那就請委員協助我們好好的溝通。"],["林委員國成：對啦！這個要溝通一下才會解決，院長、部長，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝林國成委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、勞動部長備詢。","接下來登記第2號、第3號的李昆澤委員跟林月琴委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄、刊登公報。"],["委員李昆澤書面質詢：","議題一、勞保應持續撥補","依據勞動部2025年發布的勞保精算報告，勞保基金累積餘額出現負值年度為2031年，從上一次精算的2028年延至2031年，破產危機再延後3年。","而依據精算報告所提，延後勞保破產危機，最關鍵的要素就是政府撥補，在本席多年爭取，以及過去行政院支持下，截至2025年政府連續6年累計撥補勞保3,870億元億（包括特別預算）。","勞保現況─超過1000萬保戶","勞保關係到民眾退休的基本生活，目前勞保已經有超過1000萬的保戶（1045萬，勞保局，截至2025年2月底）。","破產延後的關鍵：政府撥補","依據最新勞保基金精算報告，勞保的破產年限，從上次精算的2028年，延後至2031年，這個延後的關鍵就是政府撥補。","在兩次精算期間，政府撥補了3000多億，直接延後了勞保破產的時間。而這個精算報告中也強調，政府撥補除了直接溢注經費之外，也加強民眾對勞保的信心，降低一次領退休金的比例，這也是讓勞保基金平穩的重要因素。","精算報告中很明確的提出具體建議，目前國內經濟發展狀況良好，除了持續撥補外，更可以研議加大撥補的力道，確保未來一定期間的財務安全，落實政府責任。","財劃法影響，明年撥補狀況讓人擔憂","民進黨執政以來，負責任的擔起勞保的責任，除了公開宣示，更是實際撥補，撥補金額也是持續增加，近兩年更是維持在1200億的高額撥補。","近年來因為經濟發展狀況良好，政府稅收高於預期，所以行政院加大力道撥補勞保確保勞保財務穩定，原先，也非常期待明年度政府撥補能夠維持1200億的撥補水準，甚至提高撥補金額。","針對勞保撥補明年度的預算，兩大擔憂","首先，是今年度中央政府總預算（114年度），我們看到在野黨無理的刪減2000多億，凍結了1300多億，雖然今年度的撥補預算沒有遭到刪減，但是這種非理性的預算處理，讓人擔憂。","更嚴峻的問題，在於財劃法，中央政府要多撥給地方政府3753多億，依據主計長之前的推估說明，扣除定義務支出，中央政府其他預算可能要減少28%─37%，這會直接有效政府撥補勞保的能量。","明年持續撥補，金額請院長慎重考慮","受到財劃法影響，整體中央政府總預算受到嚴重影響，但是勞保撥補是勞工退休的救命錢，直接關係到勞保破產的年限，希望行政院慎重考慮。","議題二、研議增加產檢假、陪產檢假","■產檢假、陪產檢假辦理情形","依據113年僱用管理及工作場所就業平等概況","產檢假：86%提供產檢假","產檢假從104年實施，當年度雇主的提供比例是82.4%，到目前最新調查資料113年是86%，這9年來，僅增加了3.6%的雇主提供產檢假，現在仍然有14%的雇主並未提供產檢假。","陪產檢假（包括陪產假）：89%提供陪產檢假、80.9%給全薪","陪產檢假是111年開始實施，當年是88%雇主提供陪產檢假，依據113年最新資料是89%，2年來只有增加1%的雇主願意提供陪產檢假，仍有11%雇主不提供陪產檢假。","整體來看，事業單位提供有薪產檢假、陪產檢假的比較都超過8成，但是仍然有相當大的進步空間，要繼續努力。","產檢假、陪產檢假應增加為10天","過去我們有薪陪產假、陪產檢假是從無到有，從5天，進步到7天，本席主張，要再增加到10天。","過去產檢假5天，是因為政府補助10次產檢，後來增加到7天，是因為政府補助14次產檢。","本席主張產檢假增加到10天，是因為我們知道，除了補助14次產檢的檢查項目，其實還有6至10個自費產檢項目，也就是說完整的產檢可能是需要20至24次的。","本席採取低標，我們完整全面的產檢（補助項目+自費項目）至少需要20次，以此為依據，本席認為應該加有薪產檢假從7天增加為10天，同時也將有薪陪產檢假從7天增加為10天。","另外，本席也請行政院長責成衛福部進行研究，目前補助的14次產檢，是否能夠再增加，給予孕婦與胎兒更完整的照顧。"],["委員林月琴書面質詢：","口腔健康照護關係到高齡長者衰弱時程與失智症發病的機率，然而在長照政策的架構下，這是一個被忽略的環節。於長照3.0政策規劃的當下，謹針對口腔健康照護提出三大領域訴求，敬請公鑑。","壹、預防宣導並為機構人員培力","口腔衰弱增加身體衰弱、肌少症、失能及死亡的風險。","根據2018年研究指出，包括：自然牙數目、咬合力、構音能力PaTaKa、舌壓、主觀論訴咀嚼困難、主觀論訴吞嚥困難，六項不佳口腔狀況與身體衰弱有顯著的關係。","左圖為健康組（0/6）、口腔亞健康組（1-2/6）、口腔衰弱組（≧3/6）與身體衰弱（physical frailty）呈現顯著相關性；口腔衰弱與肌少症、長照需求、死亡呈現顯著相關性。","右圖為口腔脆弱狀態的全因死亡率生存曲線，持續追蹤45個月。每條曲線的調整考量了年齡、性別、身體質量指數、認知功能、抑鬱症狀、居住狀況、年收入、吸煙行為、慢性疾病及身體脆弱性等因素。發現口腔衰弱越嚴重者生存率越低。","因應這個問題，口腔衰弱與整體健康狀況、死亡率之間的顯著關聯性，日本於2019年結合全體國民的衛生教育、保健產業、與專業醫師，針對不同等級衰弱程度，建立口腔健康對應政策。","2023年，政府透過中華民國牙醫師公會全國聯合會的協助，機構口腔照護輔導教材，包括：手冊、量表、檢核表及影片。","基於口腔健康法第8條規定直轄市、縣（市）主管機關應加強推展下列對象之口腔保健措施及口腔危害因子防制：一、老人、身心障礙者。二、孕婦、乳幼兒、幼兒、兒童及少年。三、口腔癌高危險群。","請衛生福利部持續推動全民口腔保健措施及口腔危害因子防制宣導，以預防老化，漸緩失智。並且持續推動住宿式機構口腔照護工作教育訓練計畫，特別是該計畫除了針對長照機構之外，包括依據老人福利法設立的私立老人機構、護理機構、榮民之家都列為推動對象。","貳、建立剝離上皮細胞膜評估、照護、給付制度","根據研究統計，口腔插管病人有40%的機率發生剝離上皮細胞膜症狀。插管期間舌頭濕潤者發生率為8.7%、乾燥者為82.4%。舌頭濕潤但開口者發生率為28.6%。","剝離上皮膜為口腔內所見附著物，痰及乾燥痰、脫落上皮等形成的結痂。大部分發生在非經口進食（即插管）、口乾症及一直口呼吸的患者，該附著物若未清除，令其自行剝離，將造成口腔受傷，出血、併發感染症、並造成窒息及吸入性肺炎的風險。","2020年日本社會保險增加『非經口進食患者口腔黏膜處置』給付。","台灣目前對於口腔照護給付，只有《長期照顧服務申請及給付辦法》的「照顧及專業服務」裡規定「刷牙洗臉」這個項目，並涵蓋在基本日常照顧眾多例行性事務底下。以致口腔照護的整體質量不足，自無法顧及剝離上皮細胞膜症狀的預防。","基於前述理由，請健保建立「非經口進食、乾口症及口呼吸高風險族群之剝離上皮細胞膜專業評估機制」並訂定「『非經口進食患者口腔黏膜處置』指引及保險給付項目」。","參、長照專業賦能納入私立住宿式老人機構、護理機構、榮民之家","老人福利法第36條第1項規定：「經許可設立私立老人福利機構者，應於三個月內辦理財團法人登記。但小型設立且符合下列各款情形者，得免辦財團法人登記：一、不對外募捐。二、不接受補助。三、不享受租稅減免。」其後段即界定小型機構係屬以營利為目的私人設立之機構，別於公共設立長期照顧機構，並據限制其享有募捐、補助、租稅減免之權益。104年長期照顧服務法公布實施，當時規定現有住宿式服務機構要在5年內要公共化為長照法人登記，否則不能從事服務，意謂要強制將私人事業單位轉為公共化。由於本法有政府侵犯私人財產權之疑慮，造成嚴重爭議，遂於106年再次修法為：新設立機構的要作法人登記，既有的私人機構維持其登記型態，僅規定其實際執行長照服務人員之認證、繼續教育、登錄及處罰，適用長照服務法的規定。","前述住宿式服務機構係屬私人，而不得受以公共機構待遇的規定。使得長期照顧服務法上路之後，住宿式服務使用者（即住民）在亦因此尚失使用長期照顧服務的權利。該等對住民權利剝奪的政策限制實不合宜。","當下台灣計有1,923家住宿式服務機構，現行入住者估計有94,227人，並推估計有10萬位高齡長者有接受住宿式服務的需求。","民國108年政府提出住宿式機構服務使用者補助方案，針對住宿機構的住民所得稅額未達20%者，每人每年給予6萬元補助。自112年起，修正辦法針對長照需要等即達4級以上之住民，不限所得稅額，調整增加補助每人每年12萬元。並且把身心障礙住宿機構、一般護理之家、精神護理之家、榮民之家之住民一併納入為補助對象。該政策具有修正前述住民權利受剝奪之不合理之效果。","但是，住宿費用補助的效果在於減輕住民的經濟壓力，但住民所需要的一切照顧服務尚且全然有賴於機構，於生活照料、依據醫囑之照顧等任務足以擔當，但是卻不足以在「醫療結合長照3.0」的政策脈絡下，「向前銜接社區醫療，延伸銜接長照服務」。就牙科而言，在健保牙科總額規範下居住在家的長期照顧需求，可以申請牙醫師到宅提供口腔醫療服務。進一步延伸財團法人社會福利老人機構、身障機構、可以設置醫療團。牙醫師進駐醫療團後，便可進入該財團法人機構對住民提供口腔醫療服務。但是依老人福利法成立的私立老人機構、護理之家、榮民之家，無法成立醫療團，無法申請到宅牙科醫療服務。使得該機構的住民尚失居家醫療服務的權利。這項權利的剝奪，不是住宿費用補貼所能彌補。","基於同為繳稅義務人、社會保險被保險人，應享有相同待遇。","請研議私立老人機構、護理之家、榮民之家設置醫療團；或以到宅醫療等名義，使牙醫師至機構內對住民提供口腔醫療服務之政策。","肆、結語","綜上所述，提出具體訴求。","一、預防與專業培力：持續推動全民口腔保健措施及口腔危害因子防制宣導；並持續辦理住宿式機構口腔照護工作教育訓練計畫。","二、健全照護與醫療：建立非經口進食、乾口症及口呼吸高風險族群之剝離上皮細胞膜專業評估機制；訂定『非經口進食患者口腔黏膜處置』指引及保險給付項目。","三、落實在宅（機構）醫療：請研議私立老人機構、護理之家、榮民之家設置醫療團；或以到宅醫療等名義，使牙醫師至機構內對住民提供口腔醫療服務之政策。","此係為口腔保健專業團體及住宿式老人機構、護理機構、榮民之家等一線服務團體之共同期待，敬請以書面為具體回應，不勝感荷。"],["主席：再接下來請賴士葆委員質詢，黃秀芳委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1144201_00004"}}},{"id":"160967","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160967","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/db1f27f750492026059d036b38db73e15a34676b6303881065cf8bcb09843a203f1cde1601a035825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"14:15:17 - 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你說過去沒有嘛那我說你可不可以承諾未來不會有你現在沒有辦法承諾 事情就這麼簡單嘛我有說錯嗎這不是一刀兩面的問題沒有關係啦 我相信齁今天剛剛左院長的說明啊把賴總統的意思講得非常清楚了"},{"start":124.061,"end":137.896,"text":"賴總統有沒有做這樣的承諾全體國人可以去評判但有一件事情是非常清楚的我們會高度的掌握談判的過程會確保國家的利益主席是不是可以請院長等我問完問題再回答"},{"start":138.416,"end":160.661,"text":"他這樣子一直插話恐怕不是很有禮貌吧我們相互尊重好不好好謝謝不過有一件事情賴總統應該是清楚的承諾啦2024總統大選以前賴總統承諾要針對有關於司法改革特別是司改國是會議接下來是不是有落實要建立一個常設性的司法改革委員會這個委員會什麼時候會成立"},{"start":162.833,"end":190.76,"text":"世華改革是隨時在進行的我們對世華改革的過程我們也知道所以這個承諾有沒有人要履行也不知道我們會依照沒有期限因為這個部分不是單是行政院可以處理的我們必須跟司法院還有高度的沒有辦法因為我問不到賴總統所以我只能請教你這個是賴總統做的承諾白紙黑字有歷史紀錄毫無疑問屬於行政院的我們在法務部系統我們會就內部趕快來做更多的"},{"start":191.701,"end":194.925,"text":"所以現在全體的國人沒有任何的機會可以請教我們的賴清德總統"},{"start":199.718,"end":229.078,"text":"你選前承諾全民的常設性的司法改革委員會有沒有要履行有沒有要兌現現在大家不知道嘛卓院長也沒有辦法幫賴總統回答嘛是這樣嗎司法改革我們隨時都在改革都在進行是啊現在我在問的是政見要不要履行嘛政見要不要履行嘛政見要不要履行就是賴總統可以決定的我有說錯嗎這麼具體的事情到現在還在講空話"},{"start":230.558,"end":257.148,"text":"賴總統選前所有的政見我們都一一在履行當中這個有履行嗎 設在哪裡清楚的跟國人講啊 大聲清楚跟國人講這個有履行嗎 設在哪裡這並非只有行政院的權責 我們還要尊重沒有關係 我接下來問行政院權責可以做的事情 兩公約第四次的國家報告什麼時候可以提出來兩公約第四次的國家報告絕對是行政院的權責什麼時候可以提出來"},{"start":258.387,"end":279.999,"text":"如果我們原來有按定的時辰,我們就按照原來的時辰提出所以什麼時候要提出來我看看原來的時辰是什麼時候再跟委員報告你也不是很清楚喔你怎麼自己的施政報告自己都不熟啊我們如果有按到原來的時辰,我們就提出來這是你的施政報告我們就按照那個時辰提出來2025年6月要提出來"},{"start":281.281,"end":301.631,"text":"會準時提出來嗎?我們如果有按照時程再宣布的話就按照時程提出來不是啦,你敢再寫在施政報告的內容你自己要清楚嘛要不然立委沒有信心啊現在都不知道這個施政報告是誰提出來的嘛我為什麼要特別問兩公約的國家人權報告因為我們花了很多納稅人的錢"},{"start":303.427,"end":328.797,"text":"做國家報告找國際專家來審查但大家很困惑啊花了這麼多錢做國家報告找國際專家來審查真的有在落實嗎國際專家一而再戰而三質疑的事情行政院好像是言者遵遵聽者渺渺沒有落實也沒有關係啊我這樣講很抽象我現在邁入具體的事情2008年的時候"},{"start":330.818,"end":359.526,"text":"賴清德總統那個時候時任民主進步黨立法院黨團幹事長他有沒有針對民進黨第一次執政的時候沒有修改極右惡法向台灣社會道歉有沒有你也不知道沒有關係我準備好了來賴清德代表民進黨黨團向社會大眾致歉廢除極右惡法持續撂票那個時候的賴清德講了多麼動人的一段話他說"},{"start":360.7,"end":372.621,"text":"我要代表民主進步黨團向台灣社會大眾致歉過去我們主張報備制可是執政的時候沒有回應在野的訴求這是民進黨的不對"},{"start":375.114,"end":401.715,"text":"我們現在雖然成為在野黨但是不能推諉謝哲現在的執政黨如果還是用以前的藉口當藉口就會步入過去執政黨的後塵我在此提出特別語重心長的呼籲這個語重心長的呼籲不是我說的是賴清德總統說的現在關鍵的問題來了針對自由二法這件事情行政院有要推動修正嗎"},{"start":403.683,"end":413.553,"text":"目前我們沒有談論到這個話題目前沒有談論到這個話題好 那第二個問題我們目前的集會遊行二法有沒有違反公正公約"},{"start":416.412,"end":444.423,"text":"這個我們花納稅的錢做國家人權報告的審查結論很清楚啊我們目前的集合二法有沒有違反公正公約公正公約我提醒卓院長已經成為國內法了而且具有優惠的效力有沒有違反公正公約我們的集合法依照我國的國情目前的執行現在狀況是如此有沒有違反公正公約如果有進一步的檢討的時候我們會廣聽社會大眾共同的意見哇你們廣聽社會大眾的意見非常久啦"},{"start":446.103,"end":468.665,"text":"2008年的時候跟台灣社會道歉2025年的時候現在翻臉不認人啊現在我為什麼特別提出質詢這還不是喔這一點我不如委員這還不是喔把過去別人講的話記得那麼清楚對自己講的話也應該記得很清楚現在針對有關於政治承諾有沒有履行是一回事嗎有沒有違反法律的規定是另外一回事嗎"},{"start":469.773,"end":498.281,"text":"我說啦拿了納稅人的錢做了國家人權的審查報告找了國際的專家來審查最後的結論是什麼來我帶卓院長複習一下公正公約第21條的規定第一次的國家人權報告我們目前的勤惠遊行法違反公正公約第21條的規定許可制應該改成報配制禁制區要重新的檢討"},{"start":499.4,"end":517.532,"text":"自由法29條的刑罰違反公正公約21條的規定這都不是我說的這是我們的國家報告說的我們國家報告早就說了這件事啊我們花了納稅人的錢從民進黨2017年開始做第一次的國際審查報告2017年做國際審查報告的時候國際專家就在問啊他說你們"},{"start":522.847,"end":544.143,"text":"第一次的國家報告就承認違反公正公約你們承認違反公正公約又沒有要修法現在是在做什麼找國際專家來審查有何意義沒有意義啊自己的報告說違反公正公約國際專家問什麼時候要改我們的政府雙手一攤現在沒有要推動是這樣嗎"},{"start":547.658,"end":567.114,"text":"是這樣嗎這個委員關心的這些的問題齁那個第四次的國家審查報告是在下個月就會出來了那我想這部分應該有第二次的國家審查報告第三次的國家審查報告我剛所講的國際專家的質疑有說錯嗎這國家專家的質疑這部分我們會做一個檢討嘛會做一個檢討 對嘛所以我現在的問題就來了嘛"},{"start":573.476,"end":577.601,"text":"防務部部長說的正正有詞我們會檢討我現在的問題就來了從2017年檢討到現在"},{"start":582.168,"end":587.929,"text":"從2017年檢討到現在我有說錯嗎所以從2017年廣納到現在喔從2017年廣納到2025年喔是不是要廣納到2032年你們當初在回應國際審查專家的時候是說什麼這要廣納社會意見啊違反公正公約那我們就違反那要不然你要怎麼樣"},{"start":608.913,"end":635.259,"text":"是這種態度嗎是這種態度嗎委員 至少我們承認當初說過的話我們不會否認我們過去說過的話是啊然後呢 但是你沒有要做啊已經在檢討啊從2017年檢討到現在繼續檢討來 我告訴你國際審查專家講什麼講說到底是出於什麼原因還沒有修訂為什麼沒有修"},{"start":636.628,"end":661.367,"text":"這是2021年第三次國際審查的時候所提出來的第二次做國家報告做國際審查的時候花了多少錢?部長知不知道?這不能那個...花了多少錢?這個我沒有資料沒關係我告訴你花了614萬第三次找國際專家來花了多少錢知不知道?你也沒有資料沒關係我都幫你準備好了783萬"},{"start":663.626,"end":677.493,"text":"每一次花納稅人的錢花幾百萬花了以後找國際審查專家來大拜拜拜拜完了出了報告報告告訴你該修沒有修這個我不會同意委員說講什麼大拜拜啦"},{"start":678.765,"end":703.301,"text":"對嘛 如果不是大霸敗的話國際審查專家問的問題你們當初在回應的時候是像你今天在這邊這樣子的態度嗎是不是嘛你當初在回應國際審查專家的時候要不要把你今天在這邊回應記錄的話老老實實的第四次國際審查的時候就把你今天的話老老實實的告訴國際審查專家"},{"start":705.262,"end":727.669,"text":"我民進黨政府就是這個態度就是沒有要修嘛那要不然你要怎麼樣不是嗎來 再來洩密給外國跟洩密給中國中華人民共和國對台灣的國家安全造成極大的威脅一天到晚在恐嚇台灣要侵略台灣的就中華人民共和國非常可惡"},{"start":729.134,"end":755.056,"text":"洩密給中華人民共和國相較於要洩密給其他外國應該要加重處罰院長贊不贊成部長我問過他了啦他的答案在立法院裡面都有記錄但我沒有機會問你來 請院長請院長對不起 主席請你制止部長現在我在請教的是院長部長在旁邊一直插話這樣不好嗎請院長回覆"},{"start":756.925,"end":777.553,"text":"跟委員說明 泄密本身是一個行為泄密給任何一個人 我覺得他不應該有太大的差距尤其是如果泄密給一個敵境外的敵對勢力 他應該加重對嘛 泄密給境外敵對勢力應該要加重嘛我要的就是這個態度嘛因為我覺得很奇怪"},{"start":778.697,"end":801.076,"text":"我從很早以前,第一次當立委的時候,國家精密保護法我提案,泄密給中國就要加重處罰結果那時候跳出來反對的叫邱泰山修國安法的時候我又再主張一次,跳出來反對的是柯建民現在民進黨政府,說要從國安無法到國安實法"},{"start":802.219,"end":830.193,"text":"其中國家安全法很重要就國家安全法的部分目前沒有任何行政院的版本行政院會不會提版本行政院會不會提版本因為國家安全很重要嘛國家安全法現在有漏洞嘛要把它補起來嘛但我們現在在內政委員會審的時候我沒有看到行政院的版本行政院會不會提版本因為委員有提了相當多的版本朝野黨團的委員朝野各委員有提相當多的版本"},{"start":830.697,"end":854.906,"text":"如果這個版本綜合起來到最後我們認為跟行政院的原來的構思想法跟設計是差不多一樣的話我們可以就這個版本來做討論好 針對目前民進黨立委所提出來的版本有哪一個版本針對洩密給中國提高刑度相較其他國家更重的有哪一個版本有這樣的設計這個黨團還在討論當中現在黨團還在討論 沒有啊現在所提出來的版本已經境內政委會審查啦"},{"start":859.688,"end":884.994,"text":"審查就是一個討論的過程所以現在在審查裡面的版本有哪一個版本有針對中國有提高處罰的審查就是一個討論的過程是啊 所以我問你嘛有哪一個版本有針對泄密給中國相較於其他外國有更重刑度的有嗎沒有的話就可以再來檢討要如何來改善經濟所以我才問嘛你行政院要不要提版本出來事情就這麼簡單啊第三個事情"},{"start":886.29,"end":910.564,"text":"針對有關於棄保潛逃、妨礙司法公正在你的施政報告裡面也有寫我相信院長應該對自己的施政報告很清楚我每次問法務部棄保潛逃、妨礙司法公正那個時候所做的承諾到底什麼時候要提院板出來法務部永遠都是說他們已經提給行政院行政院什麼時候會提"},{"start":911.725,"end":923.696,"text":"這就是真的內容氣保檢討司法官說等等恐嚇證人相關的刑責對張我們現在我希望我們盡快如果盡快是什麼時候這個我曾經想過好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":520,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時41分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請卓院長。"],["主席：好，請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：卓院長好。司法及法制組的總質詢只有我一個人登記，在邁入今天的主題以前，先確認一件事情，有關昨天匯率的波動，賴總統親上火線說明，其中最值得大家關注的事情是，賴總統承諾有關於匯率絕對不會成為臺美接下來有關關稅談判的範圍，這件事情行政院會不會確實執行？"],["卓院長榮泰：完全依照這個原則，就先前談判的過程，我們也是在確保國家利益。"],["黃委員國昌：未來也不會把匯率納入整個談判的範圍，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：上一次的談判沒有牽涉到匯率。"],["黃委員國昌：未來的不會把它納入範圍，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不敢在這裡斷言，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：不敢在這邊斷言，所以昨天賴總統講的是空話嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說未來什麼時候會談到什麼事情，我們不敢在這裡斷言，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：是啊！可是賴總統講得很清楚，匯率不會成為臺美有關於經貿談判的範圍，現在這件事情卓院長改口了嗎？這是昨天賴總統講的啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：他是說上一次的談判沒有涉及……"],["黃委員國昌：所以未來不排除有可能會再納入談判範圍，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們沒有對未來做任何的想像或判斷或預估。"],["黃委員國昌：現在國人關心的就是這件事情嘛！匯率會不會成為臺美接下來經貿談判的範圍？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，不管未來談判是不是會納入，我們現在針對匯率在這一週來的變化都高度的關注。"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在不敢承諾就對了，把事情說清楚就好了啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是承諾不承諾的問題，這未來的事情……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在就問嘛！你說過去沒有，我說你可不可以承諾未來不會有，你現在沒有辦法承諾，事情就這麼簡單嘛！我有說錯嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是一刀兩面的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員也是談判的專家。"],["黃委員國昌：我相信今天卓院長的說明把賴總統的意思講得非常清楚了……"],["卓院長榮泰：你也是談判的專家……"],["黃委員國昌：賴總統有沒有做這樣的承諾，全體國人可以去評判，但有一件事情是非常清楚的……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的承諾是對匯率的變化會高度的掌握。"],["黃委員國昌：是，有一件事情……"],["卓院長榮泰：談判的過程會確保國家的利益。"],["黃委員國昌：主席，是不是可以請院長等我問完問題再回答？他這樣一直插話，恐怕不是很有禮貌吧！"],["主席：我們相互尊重，好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。不過有一件事情賴總統應該是有清楚地承諾，2024年總統大選以前，賴總統承諾要針對有關於司法改革，特別是司改國是會議，接下來是不是有落實要建立一個常設性的司法改革委員會，這個委員會什麼時候會成立？"],["卓院長榮泰：司法改革是隨時在進行的……"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：對於司法改革的過程，我們也知道人民在關注……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個承諾有沒有要履行也不知道？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會依照……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有期限？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個部分不是單單行政院就可以處理的，我們必須要跟司法院高度的合作。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有辦法啊！因為我問不到賴總統，所以我只能請教你，這個是賴總統做的承諾，有白紙黑字及歷史紀錄，毫無疑問嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：屬於行政院的，我們在法務部系統會就內部趕快來做更多的精進，如果牽涉到司法院的，必須……"],["黃委員國昌：現在全體的國人沒有任何機會可以請教我們的賴清德總統，選前承諾全民的常設性司法改革委員會有沒有要履行、有沒有要兌現？現在大家不知道嘛！卓院長也沒有辦法幫賴總統回答嘛，是這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：司法改革我們隨時都在改革、都在進行，但是要不要設個委員會……"],["黃委員國昌：是啊，現在我在問的是，政見要不要履行嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：並非行政院單方可以決定。"],["黃委員國昌：政見要不要履行，這是賴總統可以決定的，我有說錯嗎？這麼具體的事情，到現在還在講空話。"],["卓院長榮泰：賴總統選前所有的政見，我們都一一在履行當中。"],["黃委員國昌：這個有履行嗎？設在哪裡？清楚的跟國人講啊！大聲清楚的跟國人講，這個有履行嗎？設在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：這並非只有行政院的權責，我們還要尊重司法院。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我接下來問行政院權責可以做的事情，兩公約第四次的國家報告什麼時候可以提出來？兩公約第四次的國家報告絕對是行政院的權責，什麼時候可以提出來？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果我們原來有按定的時程，我們就按照原來的時程提出。"],["黃委員國昌：所以什麼時候要提出來？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們看原來的時程是什麼時候，再跟委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：你也不是很清楚喔？你怎麼自己的施政報告自己都不熟啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們如果有按照原來的時程，我們就提出來。"],["黃委員國昌：來，卓榮泰院長，這是你的施政報告。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就按照那個時程提出來。"],["黃委員國昌：2025年6月要提出來，會準時提出來嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們如果有按照時程再宣布的話，就會按照時程提出來。"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦，你敢寫在施政報告的內容，你自己要清楚嘛，要不然立委會沒有信心啊！現在都不知道這個施政報告是誰提出來的？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我說我們如果有提出過時程……"],["黃委員國昌：我為什麼要特別問兩公約的國家人權報告？因為我們花了很多納稅人的錢去做國家報告、找國際專家來審查，但大家很困惑，花了這麼多錢做國家報告、找國際專家來審查，真的有在落實嗎？國際專家一而再、再而三質疑的事情，行政院好像是言者諄諄，聽者藐藐，沒有落實也沒有關係啊！我這樣講很抽象，我現在邁入具體的事情，2008年的時候，賴清德總統那個時候時任民主進步黨立法院黨團幹事長，他有沒有針對民進黨第一次執政時沒有修改集遊惡法向臺灣社會道歉？有沒有？你也不知道？沒有關係，我準備好了，賴清德代表民進黨黨團向社會大眾致歉，廢除集遊惡法承諾持續跳票。那個時候的賴清德講了多麼動人的一段話，他說我要代表民主進步黨黨團向臺灣社會大眾致歉，過去我們主張報備制，可是執政的時候沒有去回應在野的訴求，這是民進黨的不對，我們現在雖然成為在野黨，但是不能推諉卸責，現在的執政黨如果還是用以前的藉口當藉口，就會步入過去執政黨的後塵，我在此特別提出語重心長的呼籲。這個語重心長的呼籲不是我說的，是賴清德總統說的。現在關鍵的問題來了，針對集遊惡法這件事情，行政院有要推動修正嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前我們沒有談論到這個話題。"],["黃委員國昌：目前沒有談論到這個話題，好。第二個問題，目前的集會遊行惡法有沒有違反公政公約？我們花納稅人的錢做國家人權報告的審查，結論很清楚，我們目前的集遊惡法有沒有違反公政公約？我提醒卓院長，公政公約已經成為國內法，而且具有優位的效力。集遊惡法有沒有違反公政公約？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的集遊法依照我國的國情，目前的執行狀況是如此……"],["黃委員國昌：有沒有違反公政公約？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果有進一步檢討的時候，我們會廣聽社會大眾共同的意見。"],["黃委員國昌：你們廣聽社會大眾的意見非常久了！2008年的時候跟臺灣社會道歉，2025年的現在翻臉不認人。現在我為什麼特別提出質詢？這還不是喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，這一點我不如委員，把過去別人講的話記得那麼清楚，對自己講的話也應該記得很清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係嘛！現在有關於政治承諾，有沒有履行是一回事，有沒有違反法律的規定是另外一回事，我說了啦！拿納稅人的錢做國家人權的審查報告，找國際的專家來審查，最後的結論是什麼？我帶卓院長複習一下，公政公約第二十一條的規定，第一次的國家人權報告提到，我們目前的集會遊行法違反公政公約第二十一條的規定，許可制應該改成報備制、禁制區要重新檢討、集遊法第二十九條的刑罰違反公政公約第二十一條的規定。這都不是我說的，這是我們的國家報告說的，我們國家報告早就說過這件事，我們花了納稅人的錢，從民進黨2017年開始做第一次的國際審查報告，2017年做國際審查報告的時候，國際專家就在問，說你們第一次的國家報告就承認違反公政公約，你們承認違反公政公約又沒有要修法，現在是在做什麼？找國際專家來審查有何意義？沒有意義啊！自己的報告說違反公政公約，國際專家問什麼時候要改？結果我們的政府卻雙手一攤，說現在沒有要推動，是這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長回答。"],["黃委員國昌：是這樣嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：關於委員關心的這些問題，第四次的國家審查報告在下個月就會出來了，我想這部分應該……"],["黃委員國昌：第二次的國家審查報告、第三次的國家審查報告……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個會給委員一個答案嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：我剛剛所講的國際專家的質疑有說錯嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：針對國際專家的質疑，這部分我們會做一個檢討嘛……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，所以現在我的問題就來了嘛！法務部部長說得振振有詞，說你們會檢討，現在我的問題就來了，從2017年檢討到現在，我有說錯嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要廣納意見啊，總不能自己講了就算……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以從2017年廣納到現在喔？從2017年廣納到2025年喔？"],["鄭部長銘謙：剛剛我已經講了，第四次的國家審查報告在下個月就會出來了，那我們就期待嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：是不是要廣納到2032年？你們當初在回應國際審查專家的時候是說什麼？你們說這要廣納社會意見，違反公政公約，那我們就違反，要不然你要怎麼樣？是這種態度嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，至少我們承認當初說過的話，我們不會去否認我們自己過去說過的話。"],["黃委員國昌：是啊，然後呢？但是你沒有要做啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：已經在檢討啊！"],["黃委員國昌：從2017年檢討到現在？"],["卓院長榮泰：繼續檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：我告訴你國際審查專家講什麼，他們說到底是出於什麼原因還沒有修訂？為什麼沒有修？這是2021年第三次國際審查的時候所提出來的。第二次國家報告做國際審查的時候花了多少錢？部長知不知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分……"],["黃委員國昌：花了多少錢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我沒有資料。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，我告訴你，花了614萬。第三次找國際專家來花了多少錢你知不知道？你也沒有資料，沒關係，我都幫你準備好了，花了783萬。每一次花納稅人的錢幾百萬，花了以後找國際審查專家來大拜拜，拜拜完了出了報告，報告告訴你該修的卻沒有修。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不會同意委員所講的什麼大拜拜啦，國際委員的意見我們會納入施政的參考……"],["黃委員國昌：如果不是大拜拜的話，國際審查專家問的問題，你們當初在回應的時候，是像你今天在這邊這樣子的態度嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員你不能這樣講，這樣講不公平，這樣是完全否定我們的努力、否定我們對國際兩公約的落實……"],["黃委員國昌：是不是嘛？你當初在回應國際審查專家的時候……針對你今天在這邊回應紀錄的話，要不要在第四次國際審查的時候，就把你今天的話老老實實的告訴國際審查專家：我民進黨政府就是這個態度，就是沒有要修嘛，要不然你要怎麼樣？不是嗎？","再來是洩密給外國跟洩密給中國，中華人民共和國對臺灣的國家安全造成極大的威脅，一天到晚在恐嚇臺灣、要侵略臺灣的就是中華人民共和國，非常可惡啊！洩密給中華人民共和國相較於洩密給其他外國，應該要加重處罰，院長贊不贊成？部長我問過他了，他的答案在立法院裡面都有紀錄，但我沒有機會問你，請院長……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這要廣納意見，這本來在……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起！主席，請你制止部長，現在我在請教的是院長，部長在旁邊一直插話，這樣不好吧！"],["主席：請院長回復。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員說明，洩密本身是一個行為，洩密給任何一個人，我覺得不應該有太大的差距，尤其是……"],["黃委員國昌：不應該有太大的差距？沒有關係，來……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果洩密給一個境外的敵對勢力，他應該加重。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，洩密給境外敵對勢力應該要加重嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我要的就是這個態度嘛！我覺得很奇怪，從很早以前我第一次當立委的時候，針對國家機密保護法我提案洩密給中國就要加重處罰，結果那時候跳出來反對的叫邱太三；修國安法的時候，我又再主張一次，跳出來反對的是柯建銘。現在民進黨政府說要從國安五法到國安十法，其中國家安全法很重要，就國家安全法的部分，目前沒有任何行政院的版本，行政院會不會提版本？因為國家安全很重要，國家安全法現在有漏洞，要把它補起來，但我們現在在內政委員會審的時候，我沒有看到行政院的版本，行政院會不會提版本？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為委員有提了相當多的版本，朝野各黨團的委員有提了相當多的版本，如果把所有版本綜合起來，到最後我們認為跟行政院原來的構思、想法、設計是差不多、一樣的話，我們可以就這個版本來討論。"],["黃委員國昌：目前民進黨立委所提出來的版本，有哪一個版本針對洩密給中國提高刑度，相較其他國家更重的？有哪一個版本有這樣的設計？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個部分黨團還在討論當中，朝野還在討論當中。"],["黃委員國昌：現在黨團還在討論？沒有啊！現在所提出來的版本已經進內政委員會審查了。"],["卓院長榮泰：審查就是一個討論的過程。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以現在在審查的版本裡面，有哪一個版本有針對中國提高處罰？"],["卓院長榮泰：審查就是一個討論的過程。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以我問你有哪一個版本針對洩密給中國相較於其他外國有更重刑度的？有嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有的話就可以再來檢討要如何來改善、精進。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以我才問，行政院要不要提版本出來？事情就這麼簡單。","第三個事情，關於棄保潛逃、妨害司法公正，在你的施政報告裡面也有寫，我相信院長應該對自己的施政報告很清楚。我每次問法務部有關棄保潛逃、妨害司法公正，那個時候所做的承諾到底什麼時候要提院版出來？法務部永遠都是說他們已經提給行政院。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院什麼時候會提？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是針對內容，包括棄保潛逃、司法關說、恐嚇證人等等相關的刑責罪章，我們現在……"],["黃委員國昌：院長，什麼時候會提？"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望我們儘快，如果……"],["黃委員國昌：儘快是什麼時候？"],["卓院長榮泰：我曾經想過如果這個會期結束之前，我們……"],["黃委員國昌：繼續拖嘛！2017年就做了承諾，拖到2025年，到現在還在講空話。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會儘速安排，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，司法及法制組之質詢已詢答完畢，下午2點15分處理臨時提案，下午2點30分繼續開會，進行社會福利及衛生環境組之質詢。現在休息。","休息（11時57分）","繼續開會（14時15分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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謝謝那第二個案子就順便要有請陳士凱部長一起來這個案子其實是我"},{"start":161.59,"end":177.97,"text":"去年在交通委員會的時候有跟陳世凱部長提過但是我會認為說這個案子可能特地也要請院長支持因為這個案子可是當初我們在談論的時候是因為去年風災所以造成鐵路淹水然後造成說過去五年以來"},{"start":178.909,"end":197.123,"text":"這邊已經發生了20起的交通事故其實很嚴重但是後來當我去回顧過去還有回顧說過去的一切這些不管是交通事故也好還是都市發展也好甚至有關台鐵的目前狀況的時候我跟陳士凱部長那時候也有提過"},{"start":198.144,"end":226.178,"text":"這個案子我會希望說我們真的能夠來推動雖然只是從外觀看起來只是單純的說鐵路外移從目前最容易淹水最容易發生事故的地方直接外移出去可能要看我們交通部的交通部未來的規劃但是實質上如果成功的話我記得有其他委員在質詢的時候有關台鐵到台鐵霧點尤其是花東上來台鐵霧點的狀況其實是與其說我們增快速度"},{"start":226.798,"end":249.793,"text":"倒不如說我們減低霧點率倒不如說我們能夠用減低霧點率的方式來增加班次這個可能這種截彎取直的方式我想去年我們在 今年還是去年在交通委員會我們有討論過那我想在這邊就是請院長是否能夠贊成這個鐵路外移的計畫然後並指示交通部跟台鐵各相關單位好好來做一個可行性評估呢"},{"start":250.886,"end":279.743,"text":"請交通部先說明報告委員這個部分可能要連同我們目前短期先做的是讓他這個排水先做好不要發生淹水委員你有提到這個淹水的問題確實也是困擾著台鐵所以排水的部分我們先來努力短期來看是這個樣子那如果中長期的話因為如果是路線的遷移的話或者是外推的話有可能會牽涉到徵收或者是拆民房的問題這個問題會比較複雜一點所以我們在希望說有沒有可能"},{"start":280.143,"end":295.895,"text":"我們朝向整個這個立體化的可能性來討論這個部分可能會相對是務實一點那不過可行性研究的部分我們會願意來協助基隆市政府來辦理可行性研究如果他們認為可行的話他們先來做可行性研究我們一起來努力這一段"},{"start":296.978,"end":311.213,"text":"我是這邊比較期待說如果可以的話是由中央單位來做這個可信性評估因為這主要是整個台鐵而且這個台鐵的功能主要是說當然對基隆市絕對有幫助我是基隆的委員我當然要幫基隆多爭取一點"},{"start":311.693,"end":332.39,"text":"但是我們也知道說在北部目前我們遇到台鐵沒有不好目前台鐵的運行都還算不錯尤其是在台北應該是從桃園以北基本上都算是台鐵的黃金路線而且他們的營運也好不管是營利還是營運也好都是很好的但是最被人家詬病的反而是霧點綠"},{"start":333.591,"end":349.737,"text":"也就是有時候就是車子到了台北可是因為要讓其他的線先行那如果所以說我會覺得說與其說再重新建鐵路倒不如說截完曲直在基隆這一段我覺得截完曲直的措施是很可取的而且這個能夠實質上在"},{"start":351.778,"end":375.76,"text":"在不去做大量的改動之前然後能夠把整個鐵路的運行變得更通暢我覺得這一點來講我會希望說我們能夠知道我們整個行政院的支持來去做這個計畫當然我是比較期待說如果可以的話我們在一年之內能夠提出所謂的可行性評估然後我們再來規劃一步一步規劃後面的規劃設計因為這一點來講"},{"start":378.582,"end":404.695,"text":"對於我個人來講當然我才是第一年的立法委員但是我的前輩們不管是之前的謝國良委員 劉文雄委員甚至徐少平委員 甚至王拓委員甚至張建華委員他們對這個案子其實曾經都有提過只是說我覺得現在已經到一個程度台鐵已經saturated已經飽和到一種程度我們是否可以利用這種方式來增加台鐵的使用率請問院長您認為呢報告委員"},{"start":408.451,"end":433.491,"text":"如果是立體化的話是可以比較徹底解決整體的問題如果是外移的話其實過去20年大家都在努力但是確實也遇到一些問題我剛剛有提過就是說有可能會遇到拆遷的問題也有可能會遇到用地的問題這個部分的問題其實不太容易克服如果容易克服的話應該早就已經移動了所以立體化的部分我們是這樣希望因為如果是立體化委員可以接受的話"},{"start":434.411,"end":452.341,"text":"通常立體化的可行性評估都是地方政府來做不過這個經費中央可以協助這個協助補助的部分我們會來協助那如果有關立體化有關更細節的有關更細節有關立體化的一些計畫我可能麻煩交通部要跟我再多多聯繫一下"},{"start":453.562,"end":468.739,"text":"然後再來其實還是有關鐵路的議題那這個議題就相對比較大雖然只是單純是所謂的七堵到基隆之間的地下化但是實質上來講也是因為整個北台灣其實到目前為止"},{"start":469.259,"end":494.873,"text":"台灣的發展來講以北部從台北以北基本上來講從內湖 南港 汐止現在已經到另外一種整個產業跟土地都在飽和的狀態了但是如果說當我們仔細看這個所謂的北台灣河谷狼帶的時候其實很重要的一塊就是鐵路其實把基隆很多最精華的地也甚至說未來可以產業發展地全部把它吃掉了"},{"start":495.773,"end":513.7,"text":"也是因為這一塊如果我們可以做出所謂的鐵路地下化以前的這些金融市民意代表他們提的鐵路地下化通常只是從八堵開始下去但是事實上來講我們知道以我自己的了解鐵路地下化如果從八堵下去的話其實這個"},{"start":515.601,"end":544.781,"text":"坡度是不夠的 變成說在起來的時候鐵路是無法起來的所以必須從更遠的地方這樣去做但是從七堵下去的時候所騰出來的空地剛好也可以幫我們北台灣各方面的科技園區我記得當初有一個所謂的北台灣海洋門戶科技計畫之類的我記得好像是在前瞻計畫裡面曾經提過那這方面當初是以鐵路旁邊所有的地來去做規劃但是如果我們把鐵路拿掉"},{"start":545.801,"end":572.137,"text":"不只是對基隆市對整個北台灣的發展在未來都很有前瞻性是真正的前瞻性因為當我們看到內湖南港天天在塞車天天產業都想記住內湖南港但是在繼續往下發展的時候沒有地那變成是說北台灣的發展就到此為止嗎還是說因為一個鐵路的存在而沒有辦法繼續讓我們產業整塊地都變得很漂亮如果只是單純的以河谷的發展來講的話這從"},{"start":574.518,"end":596.724,"text":"內湖、南港、汐止帶來到五堵在五堵、七堵、基隆這整片地出來的時候這才是我們期待看到的從基隆為台灣頭來控整塊直接變成一個我們台灣的亮點但是這一點現在因為過去鐵路的發展在我們中華民國的發展史上有絕對有很大的功勞"},{"start":597.304,"end":617.461,"text":"但是現在似乎要轉型的時候所以這邊的話我這邊正式在這邊提出說能不能請金正恩好好考慮從基隆市到七堵之間台北七堵 基隆從七堵這邊直接鐵路地下化之後把這邊我們看到所有的廊帶把它空出來"},{"start":618.341,"end":643.332,"text":"為什麼我對這件事情我非常的上心因為如果成功的話我常常有一個比較不好的比喻就是說基隆市的臉是有一條疤的這條疤叫做鐵路變成基隆市的市容我想卓院長我們第一次認識的時候是在基隆我是在站入口你剛好過來這邊拜票那士凱兄就不用講你是怕誰我就不用講那麼多但是我們都覺得說基隆一個"},{"start":644.412,"end":654.387,"text":"第一山傍海的城市為什麼會看到說怎麼覺得有點缺陷其實缺陷的原因就是說基隆市的市容其實被鐵路一分為二"},{"start":655.342,"end":681.311,"text":"變成說因為有鐵路的存在所以變成是基隆市的發展沒有辦法變成很完整的這塊地這句話是當初以前已故的張榮發張總裁跟我提過他說基隆市很可惜他一直都說你從31號橋上面左右看的時候你會看到基隆市市中心有很大的一塊地同樣的你從七堵那邊看的時候你也發現說如果能夠把鐵路拿開的話我們整塊地的規劃會是不一樣"},{"start":682.551,"end":710.3,"text":"從我的角度來看的話當然我們知道說七堵的鐵路如果拿開之後不只是對捷運比較方便對於整個城市發展比較方便但是這一塊如果真的拿開因為以前不敢做不是不行是以前不敢做因為鐵路的依賴性還夠但是當我們知道現在鐵路的依賴性已經慢慢慢慢減少成通勤的時候其實我們可以考慮說能不能就直接從七堵站開始直接往下挖到基隆火車站"},{"start":711.02,"end":723.907,"text":"這樣來做的時候這整塊地各位這整塊地你要做TOD也好你要做捷運站也好你要去發展產業也好你要去做社會住宅也好你要去發展任何的工業任何產業都很有機會因為這塊地夠大"},{"start":727.014,"end":752.814,"text":"如果說仔細看的話從薩契亞那邊一過山洞之後整塊地所謂的都市對於基隆市對我一個基隆長大的小孩來講都市縫合把這個鐵路拿掉把我們市容恢復讓基隆整塊來做開發我認為這是我覺得說我身為基隆人我在這邊一定要建請我們行政院好好納入考量的地方甚至如果您贊同我的想法把北台灣做大"},{"start":753.931,"end":783.027,"text":"只要把鐵路地下化我們真的有機會把北台灣做大我們現在看到的瓶頸就是到了汐止之後好像沒什麼地了那如果說基隆可以發展起來旁邊的七星區金山萬里九份瑞芳金瓜石這邊全部都會在一起起來因為以基隆為一個hub老實講我想士凱兄也知道基隆本身就是這個七星區的hub如果基隆發展起來再輻射出去的時候那不管是說金山萬里也好還是瑞芳貢寮也好未來發展性才有"},{"start":784.141,"end":810.336,"text":"那這一塊如果說我們真的要再去做大眾運輸工具不管捷運還是輕軌如果沒有地那都很可惜可是現在這塊地在哪裡在鐵路上面但如果鐵路不是不要鐵路我完全不認同說所謂捷運換台鐵這句話我完全不能認同因為這樣子是無法把城市縫合而且實質上來講對大眾運輸的效用不彰但是如果鐵路地下化"},{"start":811.63,"end":825.431,"text":"其實對於不是只有單單純純對大眾運輸而已而是對於我們台灣整個的發展就會變得不一樣院長您認為是這樣嗎謝謝委員從各國的發展來看軌道建設如果單靠交通的建設來營運"},{"start":826.713,"end":842.183,"text":"很辛苦他靠的一定是周遭的物業管理跟整體開發所以我們已經有這個鐵路平交道跟環境改善建設跟周邊土地開發計畫的一個整個作業標準但是我知道七堵段的地下化"},{"start":843.604,"end":868.041,"text":"這應該要由市政府先來做可行性評估我所知道目前 消防部說明一下是不是還沒有啟動這樣的可行性評估消防部說明一下沒有錯 其實跟委員報告我剛剛有說過就是鐵路的立體化不管是高架或者是地下化這個部分都必須要先做可行性評估而可行性評估的啟動單位其實是地方政府那如果地方政府願意啟動這樣子的計畫我們就有機會來討論這件事情"},{"start":870.683,"end":881.93,"text":"那吸堵的部分相對特別一點因為委員是基隆在地的也很清楚您會提到那塊地就是因為我們旁邊還有一個台鐵的吊車場所以才會有一塊很大的用地不是只有單純一個鐵軌經過而已"},{"start":884.201,"end":910.116,"text":"所以這個吊車廠也是我們必須要評估的一個議題吊車廠如果不在那裡那我們要設在哪裡當然如果你的軌道地下化之後吊車廠要整個地下化的機率是不高但是要找地方所以這個部分沒有關係議題可以一個一個來解套想辦法但是啟動的部分要拜託委員也跟市政府提一下如果他們願意啟動我們是願意來補助這個可行性評估的經費的"},{"start":911.998,"end":930.674,"text":"為什麼我本席會把這件事很上心我的個性是我不喜歡去占人家便宜就算是已經走掉的人這個是當初劉文雄委員我記得沒有說話第一個我聽到是劉文雄委員我不知道張建華委員有沒有提劉文雄委員同樣在這個位置上面有提出來過"},{"start":931.474,"end":946.411,"text":"那這個案子如果能夠成功的話我們都希望基隆市能夠完全的改頭換面但是老實說基隆市我記得沒有錯的話基隆市100塊土地裡面有94塊山坡地只有6塊平地6塊平地裡面有3塊是"},{"start":949.132,"end":976.415,"text":"港務局跟港務公司的所以說這一點來講我們就很有這個必要性去想辦法去生地出來所以當我聽到這個計畫的時候我希望我的自己的故鄉能夠變更漂亮我也希望說這個故鄉大家來的時候大家能夠喜歡 能夠開心更重要是說整個都市的發展老實講如果沒有地有再先進的技術有再先進的觀念其實對這個城市都不會有幫助而目前來講"},{"start":977.136,"end":994.863,"text":"北台灣我個人認為我們在北台灣的發展已經到一個瓶頸也就是說真的因為地理環境地形就是這樣子路廊就是這樣你不管在哪個地方北台灣的發展程度在其他國家也是比較起來我去過的國家裡面"},{"start":995.183,"end":1023.686,"text":"也算是非常非常的saturated就是非常非常擁擠的所以說如果我們台灣要再去把自己的餅做大尤其在北台灣可能基隆的發展尤其是我們剛剛提這個地下化地下化的目的就是把地空出來那不管是基於商業利益還是基於說城市發展還是基於說未來整個生活型態的改變我覺得這一塊來講我們都不能忽視因此我會把這件事情在這個總質詢的時候特技拿出來談"},{"start":1024.747,"end":1045.469,"text":"好 再來其實是另外一個議題其實這個議題就更大了一點也就是我是基隆人那基隆市的存在是因為基隆港但是基隆市跟基隆港兩邊其實的關係其實很特別理論上應該是共生但是因為當初這個"},{"start":1047.771,"end":1068.19,"text":"中央政府跟地方政府他們這港務局我記得沒有錯到目前為止港務公司跟航港局還是立處於中央那跟其他的國家不一樣其他的國家我記得像是洛杉磯還是洛杉磯跟香港還有巴塞隆納他們三個都是四港合一"},{"start":1068.951,"end":1095.126,"text":"那我知道說有很多時空背景有很多歷史淵源所以四港合一這件事情在台灣不容易被執行但是四港雖然不能在行政命令上面合一但是在於發展上面應該是趨於一致所以說這邊就想請問部長說未來針對基隆港的發展請問部長跟請問院長請問您對基隆港未來的發展你有什麼想像"},{"start":1096.203,"end":1124.449,"text":"基隆港最近幾年的變化相當的大尤其是成為若干這個郵輪的母港之後它未來的加速建設成為必要的途徑所以軍港西遷之後移出來的這個威海營區啊將來我們也是在今年就開始要做一些相關的可行性評估希望在四年之後它能夠就整個營區做整體規劃上面就能夠開始事半營運那細節的部分是不是交通部要補充"},{"start":1125.33,"end":1150.991,"text":"是 報告委員 威海營區你也相當熟 應該是從小看到大那目前這塊地我們確實要做BOT的這個促參的這個案子啦那交通部也已經授權給這個航港局來做這方面的進行那目前也有一些進度我們在114年 也就是今年的4月30號已經召開過公聽會做都市計畫的審查的部分要開始做作業啦那另外我們也跟基隆市政府其實有共組這個"},{"start":1152.432,"end":1178.732,"text":"推動的小組推動的小組目前正在規劃說這塊地未來要怎麼樣運用會比較好因為基隆的腹地小像委員剛剛所提的他的腹地確實是不夠非常小那他需要其實基隆的鄉親需要很多的商業空間觀光客也需要很多的採購也好或者是餐飲的空間甚至是旅宿的空間這些都是會納入我們這塊BOT的想像裡面那目前正在推動當中"},{"start":1181.406,"end":1207.725,"text":"謝謝院長跟部長的回答為什麼會把這件事特地提出來因為我那個時候參加這個就在4月30號有參加他這個BOT的公聽會公聽會本身的內容我其實沒有意見不太大但是我比較擔心的事情就是在於說因為我自己曾在港務公司待過我在港務公司五六年那我那時候就是做國際行銷的我想部長應該是我們曾經在去年在交通委員會裡面常常聊到這一塊但是"},{"start":1209.039,"end":1236.041,"text":"因為我們另外一方面因為說現在我們的觀光其實不好意思我們今天就不要再談觀光的目前觀光產業變觀光產業這件事情那這件事情是我們所有人的痛但是也另外一方面證實了我曾經聽過的一句話說你如果一個城市只把觀光拿來做最主要的這個經濟引擎的話會有很高的風險因為你不知道什麼時候觀光客不來"},{"start":1237.418,"end":1251.405,"text":"老實講這就是為什麼我覺得現在台灣也好 基隆也好我們現在我們常講說我們要發展觀光發展觀光是好事但是如果發展觀光的話尤其是在水岸開發的話你沒有人潮你就沒有錢潮"},{"start":1252.386,"end":1279.354,"text":"而如果以水腕開發來講的話怎麼樣讓當地的居民能夠多involve能夠多進來這個場域裡面然後甚至願意多消費但是怎麼樣形式的消費那其實是我們之後再來討論的但是他們只要有意願多來你有人潮你才會有錢潮如果說你連local的人都不來的話你就不可能讓全國的人過來"},{"start":1280.274,"end":1305.383,"text":"如果你全國的人不來的話你就不會讓外國人過來所以變成是說我自己在港澳公司曾經在任職的時候我們在去做整個交通規劃的時候在做整個交通規劃的時候我就很納悶就是說很多人會把這個郵輪母港這件事情把它放得很重但是事實上來講我去過巴塞隆納 新加坡 香港跟好幾個地方的郵輪母港基本上那邊都是沒有人的"},{"start":1305.723,"end":1323.034,"text":"甚至我記得好像是去年的五月份的新聞香港啟德油輪碼頭已經證實他們的使用率太低變成是說他們這一塊很有可能他們要放棄啟德碼頭是本來啟德機場重新建出來的他們變成油輪碼頭之後但是營運不佳"},{"start":1327.416,"end":1343.649,"text":"不是他們不努力請不要懷疑說香港嚴格講起來他們的Fly Crew這個方面都比我們強太多但是尷尬的是說游輪碼頭就是當下的人很多他們也不想留 馬上就離開所以當我一直聽到說要跟游輪母港去做連結的時候其實我很擔心"},{"start":1344.329,"end":1362.006,"text":"因為基隆這個東1到東6到東8碼頭未來如果說真的都沒有郵輪母港的話那其實有一天沒一天我們都知道郵輪季可能就是週末有人可是平常沒人但是既然我們要發展的話或許把它拿來當郵輪母港"},{"start":1362.907,"end":1387.809,"text":"或許我覺得要請行政院再三考量以前我在這邊在基隆市議會講這些話的時候我都直接被我的同僚說你不要懷疑中央的政策但是我在這邊身為一個基隆人我一定要提出來如果說與其成為郵輪母港倒不如說你變成油氣港尤其變成水岸開發讓大家變成有清水空間清水的環境那個其實"},{"start":1388.63,"end":1408.866,"text":"比較有商機那個也對於整個港口比較負責基隆港其實有很多從過去到現在基隆港除了原物料沒有從基隆港上之外就是像大理石這些從花蓮港之外基隆港什麼功能都有軍港 商港 漁港 油氣港你想到什麼都有什麼但是也尷尬的就是基隆港很小"},{"start":1409.807,"end":1419.651,"text":"基隆港其實真的很小所以這一點來講我們今天不用去談說需不需要再去dredging需不需要再去做峻深的動作但是只是單純的如果以水岸開發來講尤其是說"},{"start":1422.526,"end":1448.78,"text":"我記得上禮拜中森跟康榮也就是日本的國會議員剛好他們有幸來基隆然後我們有在聊到他說基隆給他感覺真的滿像Yokohama像橫濱的感覺因為全世界很少有幾個港口有幾個城市港口就在城市中心然後船直接進來但是尷尬的就是說我說基隆可以變Yokohama也可以變Baltimore就是巴爾蒂摩巴爾蒂摩其實做得沒有很好"},{"start":1451.084,"end":1457.42,"text":"這點來講為什麼這邊特意提出來就要請行政院去考慮說我們到底要成為什麼樣的海港城市"},{"start":1458.823,"end":1482.958,"text":"因為海洋國家門戶北部海洋國家門戶這句話其實有點重但是如果說北部海洋國家門戶我們希望他長得什麼樣子那我們希望是什麼樣呈現說不只是說其實我還是回到一句話如果觀光只做外國客的話那對本國客其實我們台灣消費能力其實不差但是如何他們願意回來的時候在基隆也可以消費"},{"start":1484.062,"end":1507.327,"text":"而不是都跑到台北消費那我覺得可能全台灣各縣市都有一樣的問題很多人最後面除非距離太遠超過一個小時或兩個小時以上車程不然都選擇來台北消費不在本地消費這個是我認為觀光上面可能是大家的痛因為觀光到最後面就是surprise story and spending就是你要給人家驚喜你要給人家故事最後面也要人家花錢"},{"start":1508.837,"end":1531.656,"text":"但是台灣來講,可能台北以外都沒有辦法完全去滿足國際旅客這方面的需求。那如果說今天我在講基隆的時候,我就想請行政院說,郵輪母港沒有不好,我不是說郵輪母港不好,但是郵輪母港的成分能不能少一點。舉例,海港城,我指的是香港的海港城,香港的海港城商場,"},{"start":1532.617,"end":1550.037,"text":"他們並不是遊輪母港,他們只是剛好那個碼頭夠深可以停在小遊輪而已,他們主要還是商業。那主要才是商業之外,他們很多local people,很多在地的人會去那邊消費,這才是我會認為水安開發他們可以做的事情。請問部長認為未來應該怎麼樣去處理呢?"},{"start":1552.701,"end":1568.617,"text":"基隆是一個很典型的可以港式合一的它唯一的缺點就是腹地真的太小所以現在把軍港移走之外需要多一點腹地再來基隆跟它背後的台北 新北尤其台北這個國際性的大都市"},{"start":1569.777,"end":1596.37,"text":"會帶來一些更大的吸引力我們還是希望說當然除了郵輪母港之外它還有其他尤其是未來我們首都圈黃金狼帶北北基於四個縣市合貫起來我們的六大區域產業生活圈首都圈叫做北北基於是首都圈黃金狼帶裡面有科技有觀光有商業有文化等等都會在裡面基隆是一個門戶台北最大的困難就是台北沒有領海沒有領域港口"},{"start":1596.77,"end":1622.768,"text":"基隆將來就是可能台北對外的重大的門戶那基於很多細方細細的這個布局跟步驟我們都一步一步在推動部長報告委員您說的沒有錯啦其實基隆港的商業的需求還是很大我們客運像郵輪港來講的話客運大概只佔它整體收入的5%大部分的還是以貨運為主那"},{"start":1623.311,"end":1650.185,"text":"委員在思考的應該也是跟我思考的差不多基隆在地的鄉親其實也需要很多的商業空間包含購買包含用餐甚至是不要說是郵輪來的客人是台灣國內的客人也需要一些旅宿的需求譬如說台中或高雄來的旅客可以有飯店可以住所以優先應該是思考的是在地的人的需求跟台灣本土的旅客的需求"},{"start":1651.286,"end":1662.942,"text":"我們靠近郵輪港的旁邊我們的碼頭設施也相當的健全我們也希望能夠吸引到國外的旅客來到台灣搭乘郵輪來到台灣之後可以進去消費所以順序上大概是這個樣子跟委員報告"},{"start":1663.953,"end":1687.004,"text":"我既然剛剛院長都提到說這個黃金狼帶那我認真覺得說我會建請基隆市政府盡快提出說基隆到七堵之間的鐵路地下化這個案子因為老實講地真的不夠如果又要發展科技又要發展產業又要發展各方面要符合所有這個北北基加起來的人口應該是超過800萬人"},{"start":1688.344,"end":1715.905,"text":"應該差不多會超過800萬人700到800萬人左右那等於台灣將近三分之一以上那如果是這種情況之下的話我們就很需要說多一點土地來去做區域發展跟都市發展甚至國家發展都跑不掉所以這一點我可能回去還是要跟既然今天院長跟部長都提了說如果地方政府願意做可行性評估那我們願意幫忙的話那我會回去要跟金融市政府來做溝通那另外一方面就是"},{"start":1717.026,"end":1741.764,"text":"比較尷尬的就是我也知道基隆港的收入5%甚至其實搞不好更低就是說來自遊行客的這個船舶停泊費之類的但是也不免俗就是說未來像譬如說我們現在有很多其他的方向是說能不能去正視這些其他的業者那當然是說內客外貨但是我也必須在這邊最後的一分鐘要提到一個很嚴肅的議題就是假設從東一到東八碼頭"},{"start":1746.667,"end":1771.092,"text":"未來都要做商業發展的話這個對基隆市是絕對的好事但是這搞不好也是在基隆市在我剛剛提的鐵路地下化之前唯一的機會能夠改頭換面因為那是在基隆市的中心所有的船跟高速公路跟所有的產業都可以直接在這個從東一到東八我猜記得差不多三到四千公尺"},{"start":1771.812,"end":1789.485,"text":"平方公尺這塊可能沒那麼高就差不多這塊地而且旁邊就是基隆市政府那基隆市政府跟港如果能夠合起來去做聯合開發去好好做事的話會有很多不同的價值跟創意會出來但是也是尷尬一點就是說也只有這塊地"},{"start":1790.726,"end":1813.212,"text":"也只有這塊地是完整的一塊地十年前我還是一介平民的時候我就曾經提議過這是最後一塊基隆最後一塊的處女地可以好好發展產業那既然這塊地目前是在行政院交通部手上那我就建請我們行政院好好跟基隆市政府通力合作把這塊地變成基隆未來可以改頭換面很重要的一塊"},{"start":1816.2,"end":1820.908,"text":"報告委員這個部分我會跟基隆市政府好好來協商看這個未來的發展應該怎麼樣規劃好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":465,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（11時4分）主席、在場的媒體先進好朋友。有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：院長，剛剛好前面是林倩綺委員質詢，我記得沒錯的話，在4月29號林委員也問到同樣的問題。本席是基隆市出來的立法委員，也剛好我們基隆市在2021年的時候，李洋跟王齊麟得到了第一面奧運冠軍，2024年我們又蟬聯世界冠軍，之前蔡前總統跟賴總統都答應過要給基隆市暖暖區一個羽球國手訓練中心。2021年到現在，我知道麟洋配都要退休了，他們也正式宣布退休，可是我們這個羽球國手訓練中心仍是遙遙無期。我想請問院長，您知道這個案子嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，體育署跟羽球協會都有積極在辦理這件事情，現在是針對國立基隆高中要興建羽球專項的一個訓練館，經費也初步核列是3.5億，要建12面球場。"],["林委員沛祥：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是因為像這種不是單屬於學校的運動設施都會移給未來的運動部，所以容許我們在運動部成立的時候把它納入先期計畫。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝。就運動部，如果可以的話，我會希望早一點讓它成型。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我會納入先期的計畫。"],["林委員沛祥：對，因為我會認為，到目前為止，雖然麟洋配已經退休了，但我們的羽球在國際間相對比較起來算是一個強勢的運動，老實講中華民國臺灣在世界上強勢的運動並不多，也因為是我們強勢的運動，所以有很多國際人才到臺灣做羽球方面的訓練。所以我想，這個好的、已經獲得優勢的運動繼續把它持續下去，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：兩位國手雖然退休，但他們為國家跟世界創造的歷史跟紀錄永遠深植人心，我們一定會把這個事情很澈底地完成。"],["林委員沛祥：對，謝謝。如果運動部一旦成立，那麻煩請把這個當作是，院長這邊承諾把它做優……"],["卓院長榮泰：我承諾，我把它列為優先的項目。"],["林委員沛祥：優先項目，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，也謝謝委員繼續支持。"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝。第二個案子就順便有請陳世凱部長一起，這個案子其實我去年在交通委員會的時候有跟陳世凱部長提過，但是我會認為這個案子可能也要特地請院長支持。當初我們在談論是因為去年風災造成鐵路淹水，造成過去5年以來，這個平交道已經發生了20起交通事故，其實很嚴重。但是後來當我回顧過去，還有回顧過去的這些不管是交通事故也好，還是都市發展也好，甚至有關臺鐵目前的狀況，我那時候也跟陳世凱部長提過，這個案子我會希望我們真的能夠推動，雖然從外觀看起來只是單純的鐵路外移，從目前最容易淹水、最容易發生事故的地方直接外移出去，可能也要看交通部未來的規劃。但是實質上如果成功的話，我記得有其他委員在質詢的時候，有關臺鐵誤點，尤其是花東上來臺鐵誤點的狀況，其實與其說我們增快速度，倒不如說我們減低誤點率、倒不如說我們能夠用減低誤點率的方式來增加班次，可能這種截彎取直的方式，今年還是去年在交通委員會我們有討論過。我想在這邊，請院長是否能夠贊成這個鐵路外移的計畫，並指示交通部跟臺鐵各相關單位好好做一個可行性評估？"],["卓院長榮泰：請交通部先說明。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分可能要連同……我們目前短期先做的是讓它這個排水先做好，不要發生淹水，委員有提到淹水的問題，確實也是困擾著臺鐵，所以排水的部分我們先努力，短期來看是這個樣子；中長期的話，因為如果是路線遷移或者外推，有可能會牽涉到徵收或者拆民房的問題，這個問題會比較複雜一點。所以我們希望有沒有可能朝向整個立體化的可能性來討論，這個部分可能會相對務實一點。不過可行性研究的部分，我們願意協助基隆市政府辦理可行性研究，如果他們認為可行的話，他們先做可行性研究，我們一起來努力這一段。"],["林委員沛祥：我這邊比較期待的是，如果可以的話是由中央單位來做這個可行性評估，因為主要是整個臺鐵，而且臺鐵的功能主要是說……當然，對基隆市絕對有幫助，我是基隆的委員，當然要幫基隆多爭取一點。但是我們也知道在北部，我們遇到的是臺鐵並沒有不好，目前臺鐵的運行都還算不錯，尤其是桃園以北，基本上都算是臺鐵的黃金路線，而且不管營運或營利都是很好的，但是最被人家詬病的反而是誤點率，也就是有時候車子到了臺北卻要讓其他的線先行。所以我會覺得，與其重新建鐵路，倒不如截彎取直，在基隆這一段，我覺得截彎取直的措施是很可取的，而且能在不做大量改動之前，讓整個鐵路的運行實質上變得更通暢，就這一點來講，我會希望能夠得到整個行政院的支持去做這個計畫。當然，我是比較期待如果可以的話，能在一年之內提出可行性評估，然後再來一步、一步進行後面的規劃設計。","對我個人來講，當然，我是第一年擔任立法委員，但是我的前輩們，不管是之前的謝國樑委員、劉文雄委員、徐少萍委員，甚至王拓委員、張堅華委員，他們都曾經提過這個案子，只是我覺得現在臺鐵已經saturated、已經飽和到一種程度，我們是否可以利用這種方式來增加臺鐵的使用率？請問院長您認為呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，如果是立體化的話，是可以比較澈底解決整體的問題；如果外移的話，其實過去20年大家都在努力，但是確實也遇到一些問題，我剛剛也有提過，就是有可能會遇到拆遷的問題，也有可能會遇到用地的問題，這個部分的問題其實不太容易克服，如果容易克服的話，應該早就已經移動了。所以立體化的部分我是這樣希望啦，因為如果委員可以接受立體化的話，通常立體化的可行性評估都是地方政府來做，不過這個經費中央可以協助，這個協助、補助的部分我們會來協助。"],["林委員沛祥：那麼有關立體化的部分，更細節的相關計畫就麻煩交通部再多跟我聯繫一下。"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題。"],["林委員沛祥：接下來其實還是有關鐵路的議題，這個議題相對比較大，雖然只單純是七堵到基隆之間的地下化。其實整個北臺灣的發展從臺北以北，基本上從內湖、南港到汐止，現在整個產業和土地都已經處在飽和狀態了，但是當我們仔細看所謂的北臺灣河谷廊帶的時候，其實很重要的一塊就是鐵路把基隆很多最精華的地，甚至未來產業可以發展的地全部吃掉了，也是因為這一塊，我們希望可以做鐵路地下化。","以前基隆市民意代表提的鐵路地下化通常只是從八堵開始下去，但是以我自己的瞭解，鐵路地下化如果從八堵下去的話，坡度其實是不夠的，那樣鐵道是無法往上起來的，所以必須從更遠的地方去做。但是從七堵開始下去的話，所騰出來的空地剛好也可以幫助我們北臺灣各方面的科技園區。我記得當初好像在前瞻計畫裡面提過一個北臺灣海洋門戶之類的科技計畫，這個計畫當初是以鐵路旁邊所有的地去做規劃，所以如果我們把鐵路拿掉，不只是對基隆市，對未來整個北臺灣的發展都很有前瞻性，而且是真正的前瞻性。","因為當我們看到內湖、南港天天在塞車，偏偏產業天天都想進駐內湖、南港，但是繼續往下發展又沒有地，變成北臺灣的發展就到此為止嗎？還是說因為一個鐵路的存在，而沒有辦法繼續讓我們的產業整塊地都變得很漂亮？如果只是單純以河谷的發展來講的話，從內湖、南港、汐止，到五堵、七堵、基隆，這整片地呈現出來的時候，才是我們期待看到的──以基隆為「臺灣頭」來講，整塊直接變成一個北臺灣的亮點。","過去鐵路的發展在中華民國的發展史上絕對有很大的功勞，但是現在似乎到了轉型的時候了！所以我正式在這邊提出，能不能請行政院好好考慮，從基隆市到七堵之間，臺北、七堵、基隆，從七堵這邊直接鐵路地下化之後，把這邊我們看到所有的廊帶空出來？為什麼我特地提這件事？我對這件事情非常的上心，因為如果成功的話，我常常有一個比較不好的比喻，就是基隆市的臉是有一條疤的，這條疤叫做鐵路，變成基隆市的市容。卓院長，我們第一次認識的時候是在基隆，我在站路口，你剛好過來這邊拜票，世凱兄就不用講，你是基隆女婿，我們就不用講那麼多，但是我們都覺得基隆一個依山傍海的城市，為什麼會看到覺得怎麼有點缺陷？其實缺陷的原因就是基隆市的市容被鐵路一分為二，因為有鐵路的存在，所以基隆市的發展沒有辦法變成很完整的這塊地，這句話是當初已故的張榮發張總裁跟我提過的，他說基隆市很可惜，他一直都說從31號橋上面左右看的時候，你會看到基隆市市中心有很大的一塊地，同樣的，從七堵那邊看的時候，你也發現如果能夠把鐵路拿開的話，我們整塊地的規劃會不一樣。從我的角度來看，當然我們知道七堵的鐵路如果拿開之後，不只是對捷運比較方便、對於整個城市發展比較方便，但是這一塊如果真的拿開，以前是不敢做，不是不行，以前不敢做是因為鐵路的依賴性還夠，但是當我們知道現在鐵路的依賴性已經慢慢、慢慢減少成通勤的時候，其實我們可以考慮能不能從七堵站開始直接往下挖到基隆火車站，這樣來做的時候，各位，這整塊地要做TOD也好、要做捷運站也好、要發展產業也好、要做社會住宅也好、要再去發展任何的工業、任何產業都很有機會，因為這塊地夠大。","如果仔細看的話，從三坑那邊，一過山洞之後整塊地，所謂的都市，對於基隆市、對於我一個基隆長大的小孩來講，都市縫合，把這個鐵路拿掉、把我們市容恢復，讓基隆整塊來做開發，我認為這是我身為基隆人，我在這邊一定要建請我們行政院好好納入考量的地方，甚至如果您贊同我的想法，把北臺灣做大，只要把鐵路地下化，我們真的有機會把北臺灣做大，我們現在看到的瓶頸就是到了汐止之後，好像沒什麼地了，如果基隆可以發展起來，旁邊的七星區、金山、萬里、九份、瑞芳、金瓜石這邊全部都會在一起起來，因為以基隆為一個hub，老實講，我想世凱兄也知道基隆本身就是七星區的hub，如果基隆發展起來，再輻射出去的時候，不管是金山、萬里也好，還是瑞芳、貢寮也好，未來的發展性才有。這一塊如果我們真的要再去做大眾運輸工具，不管捷運還是輕軌，如果沒有地，那都很可惜，可是現在這塊地在哪裡？在鐵路上面。不是不要鐵路，我完全不認同所謂捷運換臺鐵這句話，我完全不能認同，因為這樣子是無法把城市縫合，而且實質上來講，對大眾運輸的效用不彰，但是如果鐵路地下化，其實不是只有單單純純對於大眾運輸而已，而是對於我們臺灣整個發展就會變得不一樣，院長，您認為是這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。從各國的發展來看，軌道建設如果單靠交通的建設來營運是很辛苦，它靠的一定是周遭的物業管理跟整體開發，所以我們已經有鐵路平交道跟環境改善建設跟周邊土地開發計畫的整個作業標準，但是我知道七堵段的地下化應該要由市政府先來做可行性評估，我所知道目前是不是還沒有啟動這樣的可行性評估？請交通部說明一下。"],["陳部長世凱：沒有錯，其實跟委員報告，我剛剛有說過，鐵路的立體化，不管是高架或者是地下化，這個部分都必須要先做可行性評估，而可行性評估的啟動單位其實是地方政府，如果地方政府願意啟動這樣子的計畫，我們就有機會來討論這件事情。七堵的部分相對特別一點，因為委員是基隆在地的，也很清楚，您會提到那塊地，就是因為我們旁邊還有一個臺鐵的調車場，所以才會有一塊很大的用地，不是只有單純一個鐵軌經過而已，所以調車場也是我們必須要評估的一個議題，就是調車場如果不在那裡，那麼我們要設在哪裡？當然如果軌道地下化之後，調車場要整個地下化的機率是不高，但是要找地方，所以這個部分沒有關係，議題可以一個一個來解套、想辦法，但是啟動的部分要拜託委員也跟市政府提一下，如果他們願意啟動，我們是願意補助可行性評估的經費。"],["林委員沛祥：好，為什麼本席會對這件事很上心？其實我的個性是不喜歡占人家便宜，就算是已經走掉的人；我記得沒錯的話，這個案子我第一次是聽劉文雄委員提出來的，我不知道張堅華委員有沒有提過，但劉文雄委員有特別在這個同樣的位置上提出來過，如果這個案子能夠成功，我們都希望基隆市可以完全改頭換面，但是老實說，我記得沒有錯的話，基隆市100塊土地裡面，有94塊是山坡地，只有6塊平地，而這6塊平地中，有3塊是港務局和港務公司的，就這一點來講，我們就很有必要想辦法生出土地來，所以當我聽到這個計畫的時候，我也希望自己的故鄉變得更漂亮，能夠讓大家來的時候感到喜歡、開心；更重要的是，就整個都市發展來講，如果沒有地，其實有再先進的技術、再先進的觀念，對這個城市都不會有幫助。目前來講，我個人認為北臺灣的發展已經到了一個瓶頸，因為地理環境、地形就是這樣子，路廊就是這樣子，不管是哪個地方，在其他國家也是這樣，和我過去去過的國家比較起來，北臺灣的發展程度真的算是非常非常saturated，就是非常非常擁擠，所以如果我們臺灣要再把自己的餅做大，尤其是北臺灣，可能基隆的發展，就是我剛剛提到的鐵路地下化，地下化的目的就是把地空出來，不管是基於商業利益、基於城市發展，還是基於未來整個生活型態的改變，我覺得這一塊是不能忽視的，因此我才把這件事情特地在總質詢時提出來討論。","好，再來談到另外一個議題，這個議題就更大了一點，我是基隆人，而基隆市的存在是因為基隆港，但是基隆市和基隆港兩邊的關係很特別，理論上應該是共生，但因為當初中央政府跟地方政府的關係，我記得沒錯的話，到目前為止，港務公司和航港局還是隸屬於中央，這跟其他國家不一樣，像洛杉磯、香港還有巴塞隆納，這三個都是市港合一，我知道這有很多時空背景和歷史淵源，市港合一在臺灣不容易被執行，雖然市港不能在行政命令上合一，但是在發展上應該趨於一致，在此我想請問院長和部長，對於未來基隆港的發展，你們有什麼想像？"],["卓院長榮泰：基隆港最近幾年的變化相當大，尤其是成為若干郵輪的母港之後，未來加速建設成為必要的途徑，在軍港西遷之後，移出來的威海營區，我們今年就要開始進行一些相關的可行性評估，希望在4年之後，能夠針對整個營區做整體規劃，然後就可以開始試辦營運，細節部分請交通部補充說明。"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，威海營區你也相當熟，應該是從小看到大，目前這塊地我們確實要做BOT促參的案子，交通部已經授權給航港局進行這方面的工作，目前也有一些進度，我們在114年，也就是今年4月30號已經召開過公聽會，相關都市計畫的審查也要開始作業。另外，我們也跟基隆市政府共組推動小組，推動小組目前正在規劃未來這塊地應該怎麼運用會比較好，因為基隆腹地小，就像委員剛剛提到的，它的腹地確實不夠、非常小，而基隆鄉親需要很多商業空間，觀光客也需要很多採購或餐飲空間，甚至是旅宿空間，這些都會納入我們這塊土地BOT的想像，目前正在推動當中。"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝院長跟部長的回答，我為什麼會把這件事特地提出來？其實我也參加了4月30號的這個BOT公聽會，公聽會本身的內容我的意見不太大，但是我比較擔心的是，因為我自己曾在港務公司待過，我在港務公司5、6年，那時候做的就是國際行銷，我想部長應該知道，我們去年曾在交通委員會裡面常聊到這一塊。另外一方面，因為現在我們的觀光，其實……我們今天就不要再談目前的觀光由觀光產業變觀光慘業的這件事情，這件事情是我們所有人的痛。但另一方面也證實了我曾經聽過的一句話，如果一個城市只把觀光拿來做最主要的經濟引擎的話，就會有很高的風險，因為你不知道什麼時候觀光客不來。","老實講，這就是為什麼我覺得現在臺灣也好、基隆也好，我們常講說我們要發展觀光，發展觀光是好事，但是如果發展觀光，尤其是水岸開發的話，你沒有人潮，你就沒有錢潮；如果以水岸開發來講的話，怎麼讓當地的居民能夠多involve、能夠多進來這個場域裡面，甚至願意多消費，至於是什麼樣形式的消費，其實是我們之後要再來討論的，但是他們只要有意願多來，你有人潮，你才會有錢潮。如果說連local的people、連local的人都不來的話，就不可能讓全國的人過來，如果全國的人不來的話，就不可能讓外國人過來。所以變成是說……","我自己在港務公司任職去做整個交通規劃、觀光規劃的時候，我就很納悶，很多人會把郵輪母港這件事情放得很重，但是事實上來講，我去過巴塞隆納、新加坡、香港跟好幾個地方的郵輪母港，基本上那邊都是沒有人的。甚至我記得好像是去年5月的新聞，香港啟德郵輪碼頭已經證實其使用率太低，變成這一塊他們很有可能要放棄。啟德碼頭本來是啟德機場重新建出來的，他們變成郵輪碼頭之後卻營運不佳，不是他們不努力，請不要懷疑香港，嚴格講起來，他們的fly cruise各方面都比我們強太多，但是尷尬的是說，郵輪碼頭就是當下人很多，他們也不想留，馬上就離開，所以當我一直聽到要跟郵輪母港去做連結的時候，其實我很擔心，因為基隆這個東1、東6到東8碼頭，未來如果真的都變郵輪母港的話，其實就是有一天、沒一天，我們都知道郵輪季可能就是週末有人，可是平常沒人，但是既然我們要發展的話，把它拿來當郵輪母港，我覺得或許要請行政院再三考量。以前我在基隆市議會講這些話的時候，我都直接被我的同僚說你不要懷疑中央的政策，但是我在這邊，身為一個基隆人，我一定要提出來，如果說與其成為郵輪母港，倒不如變成遊憩港，尤其是變成水岸開發，讓大家有親水空間、親水的環境，那個其實比較有商機，對整個港口也比較負責。","基隆港其實有很多……從過去到現在，除了原物料沒有從基隆港上之外，像大理石這些是從花蓮港上之外，基隆港什麼功能都有，軍港、商港、漁港、遊憩港，你想到什麼就有什麼。但也尷尬的是基隆港很小，基隆港其實真的很小，所以以這點來講，我們今天也不用去談需不需要再去dredging、需不需要再去做浚深的動作。","如果只是單純以水岸開發來講，我記得上禮拜中曾根康隆，也就是日本的國會議員，剛好有幸他們來基隆，然後我們有聊到，他說基隆給他的感覺真的蠻像橫濱（Yokohama）的感覺，因為全世界很少有幾個港口、有幾個城市，港口就在城市中心，然後船直接進來。但尷尬的是，我說基隆可以變Yokohama，也可以變巴爾的摩（Baltimore），巴爾的摩其實做得沒有很好。為什麼這邊要特意提出來這點？就是要請行政院去考慮，我們到底要成為什麼樣的海港城市？因為「北部海洋國家門戶」這句話其實有點重，但是如果說我們希望北部海洋國家門戶長成什麼樣子，我們希望它怎麼呈現？其實我還是要回到一句話，如果觀光只做外國客的話，那對本國客……我們臺灣的消費能力其實不差，但是在他們願意回來的時候，如何讓他們在基隆也可以消費，而不是都跑到臺北消費，我覺得可能全臺灣各縣市都有一樣的問題，除非距離太遠，超過一個小時或兩個小時以上的車程，不然很多人到最後都會選擇來臺北消費而不在本地消費。我認為在觀光上面這可能是大家的痛，因為觀光到最後面就是surprise、story and spending，就是要給人家驚喜、要給人家故事，最後面也要人家花錢，但是以臺灣來講，可能臺北以外都沒有辦法完全去滿足國際旅客這方面的需求。","今天我在講基隆的時候，我就想請行政院，郵輪母港沒有不好，我不是說郵輪母港不好，但是郵輪母港的成分能不能少一點？舉例海港城，我指的是香港的海港城商場，他們並不是郵輪母港，只是剛好碼頭夠深，可以停一臺小郵輪而已，他們主要還是商業、主要還是說在商業之外，他們很多local people、在地的人會去那邊消費，這才是我認為水岸開發可以做的事情。請問部長認為未來這應該怎麼樣去處理呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：基隆是一個很典型可以港市合一的，它唯一的缺點就是腹地真的太小，所以現在把軍港移走之後，也希望多一點腹地。再來，基隆跟它背後的臺北、新北，尤其臺北這個國際性的大都市會帶來更大的吸引力。我們還是希望，當然除了郵輪母港之外，它還有其他，尤其是未來首都圈黃金廊帶，北北基宜四個縣市合起來，我們的六大區域產業及生活圈裡面，北北基宜是首都圈黃金廊帶，裡面有科技、有觀光、有商業、有文化等等，都會在裡面，基隆是一個門戶，臺北最大的困難就是沒有臨海、沒有臨港口，基隆將來可能就是臺北對外重大的門戶，至於很多細項的布局及步驟，我們都一步一步在推動。"],["林委員沛祥：部長。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您說的沒有錯，其實基隆港的商業需求還是很大，我們的客運，以郵輪港來講的話，大概只占它整體收入的5%，大部分還是以貨運為主。委員在思考的應該也跟我思考的差不多，就是基隆在地的鄉親其實也需要很多的商業空間，包含購買、包含用餐，甚至不要說是郵輪來的客人，臺灣國內的客人也有一些旅宿的需求，譬如臺中或高雄來的旅客可以有飯店住，所以優先應該去思考的是在地人的需求及臺灣本土旅客的需求。當然在靠近郵輪港的旁邊，碼頭設施也相當健全，我們也希望能夠吸引到國外旅客搭乘郵輪來到臺灣之後可以進去消費，所以順序上大概是這個樣子，跟委員報告。"],["林委員沛祥：既然剛剛院長都提到這個黃金廊帶，我認真覺得，我會建請基隆市政府儘快提出基隆到七堵之間鐵路地下化的案子，因為老實講地真的不夠，如果又要發展科技、又要發展產業、又要發展各方面、又要符合所有北北基人口的需求，北北基加起來的人口應該是超過800萬人，差不多超過800萬人，700萬到800萬人左右，等於將近臺灣人口的三分之一以上。如果是這種情況之下的話，我們就很需要多一點土地去做區域發展及都市發展，甚至國家發展都跑不掉。既然今天院長和部長都提到，如果地方政府願意做可行性評估，中央願意幫忙的話，我會回去跟基隆市政府來做溝通。","另外一方面比較尷尬的是，我也知道基隆港的收入5%，甚至搞不好更低，就是來自遊輪的船舶停泊費之類的，但是未來也不免俗，我們現在有很多方向，譬如能不能去正視其他業者等等。當然內客外貨，但是我也必須在最後的1分鐘要提到一個很嚴肅的議題，假設從東1到東8碼頭未來都要做商業發展的話，對基隆市是絕對的好事，但是這搞不好也是基隆市在我剛剛提的鐵路地下化之前唯一的機會能夠改頭換面，因為那是在基隆市的中心，所有的船、高速公路的運輸及所有的產業都可以直接在這個東1到東8碼頭處理，我記得這塊地差不多是3,000到4,000平方公尺，可能沒那麼大，就差不多，而且旁邊就是基隆市政府，基隆市政府和港如果能夠合起來去做聯合開發、去好好做事的話，會有很多不同的價值及創意出來。但是尷尬的點就是也只有這塊地是完整的一塊地，十年前我還是一介平民的時候就曾經提議過，這是基隆最後一塊的處女地，可以好好發展產業，既然這塊地目前是在行政院、交通部手上，我就建請行政院好好跟基隆市政府通力合作，把這塊地變成基隆未來可以改頭換面、很重要的一塊。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分我會跟基隆市政府好好來協商，看未來的發展應該怎麼樣規劃。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，交通組之質詢已詢答完畢，休息5分鐘，休息之後進行司法及法制組之質詢，現在休息。","休息（11時35分）","繼續開會（11時40分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1144201_00004"}}},{"id":"160960","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160960","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/db1f27f750492026ff54ed1d38cb6bb95a34676b63038810cb3399728a108f89dff46f77a105961a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"10:48:00 - 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比方說我們曾經討論過除了耗資標示之外的這個加強之外如果早晨要不要給他身上有一個什麼樣的標示"},{"start":297.332,"end":321.598,"text":"地方政府執行多年這個成效都不好所以必須要找出其他的方式所以本席這邊建議在那個道安長照社福跟都市規劃的相關單位應該做一個跨部會的處理跟整合因為這些地方是高齡人口經常會去走動的那您剛才講的是時間上的問題那但是有沒有可能做一個高齡人口活動熱區的道路安全總體的一個檢討"},{"start":324.099,"end":350.033,"text":"然後至少我們讓它在生活上跟交通安全上能夠扣連在一起去減低高齡人口交通事故的一個比例這個部分可以嗎您的這個建議其實非常好我可以請運輸研究所來做這方面的研究如果在高齡者比較有在行動的熱區的部分我們對於當區的整體的交通該怎麼做改善我覺得這個應該會相當有意義"},{"start":351.494,"end":378.695,"text":"是不是應該定一個改善的期程比如說哪一年你要做到高齡事故的減半計畫因為您剛才也投入了一些經費或者是仿效國外的Vision Zero這樣子的一個零事故死亡的政策那可能期程要比較具體的訂定出來您如果投入的是四年的經費那短中長期大概每一段時間要進行到哪裡"},{"start":379.275,"end":408.44,"text":"那我想比較具體這個部分我們其實是針對整體的行人安全跟整體的交通安全在做改善那您剛剛所提醒的就是說針對高齡者要不要再做更特別的規劃那這個部分我們會再規劃道安的比例也是非常高就是他們碰到事故的比例非常高就是機車老人跟酒駕都是相當高的一個造勢的狀態那這個部分其實這幾年的改善"},{"start":408.84,"end":431.973,"text":"已經有看到一些成效也確實都在下降當中數據看起來都在下降當中但是您所提醒的高齡者的部分我們會另外再來做研究看怎麼樣再來提升他們的安全對 就針對這個部分可能要有一個具體的時程所以道路不只是移動的空間也是生活的延伸所以剛才本席才針對高齡者會活動的這些場域希望你們做一個總檢討跟整體的設計"},{"start":433.954,"end":454.131,"text":"好那您剛才其實也提到酒駕或者是我們未來要探討的一個危險駕駛的這個部分那111年警察交通執法與事故處理的滿意度調查其中很多人對於這個危險駕車有一些怨言那大概100人當中會有40人那依照警政署去年的一個"},{"start":455.993,"end":478.307,"text":"通報的統計危險駕車的汽車違規佔比有7乘5那麼不遵行方向行駛的機車違規佔比有8乘4那另外呢汽車佔比這個高項目的是危險駕車有75.32然後超出速限的有40公里以下的佔了72.79這一些數據其實代表了危險駕駛"},{"start":479.628,"end":494.245,"text":"跟危險駕車是民眾一直所在意的也凸顯了我們的交通環境中危險車型的一個制度性問題那是不是目前你們有沒有在研議科技執法上以及提高刑責來產生嚇阻的一個作用呢"},{"start":497.161,"end":519.817,"text":"科技執法其實警政署跟地方政府已經有在執行執行看起來成效也都還不錯另外針對教育的層面我們也在做努力工程的層面我們也在做努力本席其實有做一個提案就是把交通安全的教育列到我們很基本的教育裡面讓大家對於空間開始慢慢有一些感覺跟看法"},{"start":520.618,"end":547.891,"text":"好那我引用一下交通部你們大灣司的這個相關的數據大型車的這個案件比去年同時期增加了137件那整體來講有13736件那這個的例子就跟去年東海大學的那個女大學生被輾過被大型車輾過的狀況一樣因為大型車有很多的死角那去年這個事故最主要是大型車沒有看到她又輾了一次結果"},{"start":548.991,"end":569.505,"text":"一條美麗的生命就這樣子沒有了所以大型客車的事故的致死率比一般汽車機車都來得高所以我們有沒有思考現行大型車輛駕駛訓練的標準能不能應付很多元的道路的狀況尤其是在繁忙的時間跟路段比較複雜行駛時的一個挑戰呢"},{"start":572.058,"end":600.288,"text":"報告委員我們針對這個小型車跟大型車都一樣我們現在正在做這個整體駕訓的檢討駕訓機制所以也可能駕訓的這個部分會有一些調整當你駕訓的機制做檢討跟調整之後他之後的這個客運的司機駕駛啦他的整體的訓練就會不一樣那這是一方面那二方面我們針對公司也就是在監理的層面針對客運公司的要求也希望他們能夠落實到要求我們的客運的駕駛"},{"start":601.268,"end":618.414,"text":"對於一些我們新的規則的要求要落實那還有他們的開車習慣我們從司機的職開始做一個整體的調整跟改變那當然你們在外部的環境像你們要針對駕駛行為然後另外制度也是有一些需要改進的嘛"},{"start":618.934,"end":634.707,"text":"那道路的設計還有交通文化的這個部分我覺得這樣比較治本而不是只有治標所以你們是不是有制定長期的計畫特別是針對青少年跟新駕駛人的這個交通安全的宣導活動不知道你們有沒有這個短中長期的計畫"},{"start":635.527,"end":663.918,"text":"報告委員 這個計畫我們都有運研所前一陣子才做出一套系統我們針對國小跟國中跟高中用一種沉浸式的一個模式透過平板讓他學習在道路上包含走路要怎麼走 怎麼樣過馬路然後怎麼樣才會安全謝謝部長您剛才有提到包含騎摩托車也都有全部都有融入到教育的層面您有提到平板不過本席認為真正在實地空間的這樣一個模擬跟訓練是重要的"},{"start":664.158,"end":692.338,"text":"要不然有些東西我們看了但是碰到了實際的狀況那個反應是不一樣的我們在各個縣市其實也盡量在建設這個交通安全的這個學習的園區啦這個學習的園區就是要讓我們的年輕人或者是小朋友在那個園區可以學習到實際在道路上可能會遇到的狀況所以這一點把本席的建議納入進去那對於空間的實際感覺是很重要的是 沒有錯好 謝謝"},{"start":696.124,"end":724.943,"text":"那接下來呢本席要為地方來請命因為過去本席在嘉義工作那本席就發現因為常常有這樣子走動的機會所以呢嘉義市是目前全國唯一沒有跟高鐵連接的軌道城市那這個問題很久了那這個問題很奇怪的不是單純只有行政的問題喔而是中央對於區域交通的這個正義跟公義還有產業平衡的這個發展還有對歷史的承諾其實都有一點點狀況"},{"start":726.324,"end":749.334,"text":"所以高鐵嘉義市線是唯一沒有軌道連結的運輸系統你可以想像一個每年超過630萬人次的高鐵站竟然沒有一個軌道系統來連結不是很奇怪嗎這樣的斷點如果依照我們的了解是中央規劃有一些缺失還有長年政策的失衡的結果"},{"start":750.094,"end":773.235,"text":"其實交通部在民國88年就已經完成嘉義高鐵聯外道路的可行性評估那也明確的表示呢當時高鐵局長明確的表示那個運量達到的之後呢就要進行鋪設結果行政院在94年更直接合附交通部來辦理BRT的階段性方案這就是我們目前在搭的"},{"start":773.775,"end":799.458,"text":"那這個BRT呢其實現在運量已經每一年都達到130萬人次尖峰時段還常常都客滿那本席也常常搭不到所以這個部分呢本席因為問了所以才發現那中央竟然說在這個軌道的部分要地方政府來分擔這似乎有一點奇怪不知道部長您對這個事情的看法如何報告委員輕軌系統跟捷運系統都是地方辦理事項所以各個縣市都一樣"},{"start":799.878,"end":818.446,"text":"本席這邊可能先提醒全國的高鐵的軌道系統應該大部分都是由中央這邊全額來負擔的這是依照大眾捷運法的第13條的這樣一個規定你們卻應該用這樣子的一個高度來看全國的一個軌道的網絡"},{"start":822.107,"end":840.143,"text":"但是BRT現在的運量已經足夠了嘛結果你們現在竟然叫他們用一個下位的審查作業要點的規範叫地方政府來做負擔我想這個部分針對所有的高鐵與連外的軌道似乎對嘉義縣市有一些不公平 您的看法呢"},{"start":841.442,"end":854.571,"text":"報告委員 這個其實各縣市都一樣只要是輕軌跟捷運系統但是它這個輕軌是從是高鐵延伸出去的一個網絡從高鐵嘉義站到台鐵嘉義站我想這個部分中央應該難辭其咎吧"},{"start":855.933,"end":869.929,"text":"您的看法呢報告委員這個部分當然嘉義縣市自己也要有共識啦因為目前我聽起來嘉義縣政府他們當然是樂觀其成但是對於經費上面他們也是有一些意見所以本席這邊提醒您"},{"start":871.291,"end":871.591,"text":"一個癥結 這個工程款是374億"},{"start":893.7,"end":909.973,"text":"如果中央可以負擔的話是工程款本身的372億地方只負責用地費用的0.66億跟嘉義縣的0.94億他們都不注意中央可以負擔372億但是連這樣都談不攏都要中央全額負擔"},{"start":911.155,"end":936.009,"text":"所以中央有沒有可能跟嘉義市這邊再來共同研議一方院又要把財政收支發放法全部移給地方等一下 院長 財發法是今年的事情那我們剛才談的其實是好幾年前的事好不好 做一個研議好嗎不要拿現在的變數把過去的東西都全部抹滅掉這我給你們一個建議啦 大家再來談談看好不好好 最後一個"},{"start":956.476,"end":967.071,"text":"在這個部分跟地方業者再多談一下然後不要讓他們你們利益良好的東西結果地方業者不接受反倒有一些部內的事物你們不知道是不是可以再管"},{"start":968.92,"end":995.007,"text":"然後第二個很重要一點我上禮拜參加了聖父蘭基獨特首席的開幕我要跟你們提醒的是雖然你們未來在公共藝術的意象上有原住民但是不要忘了原先的原住民的意象是非常明顯的本期在這邊跟你們討論跟建議原住民的意象不能小於之前的原住民的意象那是我們共同的記憶有沒有可能"},{"start":999.043,"end":999.365,"text":"謝謝林委員謝謝左院長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":385,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（10時48分）主席、府院同仁，大家好。我們是不是先請卓院長跟陳部長。"],["主席：請卓院長跟陳部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：院長、部長好。本席今天針對交通安全跟觀光的議題來跟你們做個討論，院長，我們現在已經邁入了高齡社會，根據內政部的資料統計，我們目前65歲以上的老人已經達到了429萬6,985人，占全國總人口的18%，以這樣的速度，我們應該很快就會進入超高齡社會，20%的比例我想很快就會到了，所以今天本席想要針對高齡族群的交通事故來跟您做個討論。高齡者一直是交通事故的高風險群，我們在人行步道、公車站牌跟失能老人的接送，基本上很不友善老人的視力跟體能。在這個高齡化的社會，老人的人數不斷地成長，當然我們應該要有更符合高齡人口生活的環境，比如說，建置完善的人行道或者是適合老人行動的公共設施。本席這邊要提醒一下整個交通部，在老人設施這個部分目前的作法，依據數據，我們看到高齡機車騎士的死傷案件比前一年增加了2,574件，高齡者在路口的交通事故也比前一年增加了2,005件，整體高齡者死傷人數年增2,981人，已經快3,000人了，行人總死傷人數一萬七千多件，但是高齡者就占了6,195件，比例是非常高的，將近三分之一，這樣的數字背後呈現整個趨勢的成長，但是這不是偶然的。交通部目前的狀況，依本席所知道是以宣導跟增設標誌來處理問題，這樣似乎有點消極，長者現在已經是高風險群，也由於他們整個機能的問題，交通環境好像沒有跟上人口結構的改變。院長，您的看法呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：非常謝謝委員，為65歲以上高齡者的安全來設想，其實我們在討論過程當中，年輕族群在騎機車跟高齡族群在交通事故上都有呈現很高的數字。高齡族群，尤其在清晨去運動的時候發生狀況也非常多；當他騎車的時候，有些是自己本身的條件或疏於注意也很多，所以我們從各方面討論過，在路口安全、行人安全跟改善路口計畫當中，我們多次都有討論到這樣相關的議題，是不是請部長能夠再仔細地說明一下？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您剛剛所提到的……"],["林委員倩綺：所以你們現在比較具體的作法是？"],["陳部長世凱：您所提到人行的空間相當重要，所以在永續提升人行安全計畫裡面，4年會投入400億的經費，希望讓人行道的建置能夠更加完整，在過馬路行穿線的部分也要更加的完整，所以我們整體的……"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝，至少你們現在在經費上有投入嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：有投入。"],["卓院長榮泰：有計畫在進行。"],["林委員倩綺：本席還是提醒在高齡的部分要更加做一個規劃，像整個行人道高低不平的問題，我想大家都知道，常常走路的時候就阻礙重重；還有一個很重要的就是號誌燈，高齡者平均每秒的速度是0.8公尺到1公尺，但是我們整個設計大概都是1.2公尺的號誌秒數，所以這個部分應該更具體的來做改善；另外目前自行車道的規劃，感覺還是以汽、機車為規劃主體，所以在日常的通勤跟休閒的安全需求也是非常高，你們有沒有可能針對高齡友善交通置放在國家戰略的核心，進行部會系統性的改造，跨部會來做處理跟整理，有沒有這個可能？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們多年前就有透過高齡駕駛健康檢查跟評估制度，從他本身的條件來做起，比方說我們曾經討論過，除了號誌、標線的加強之外，早晨要不要給他身上有一個什麼樣的標示，但是地方政府執行多年成效都不好，所以必須要找出其他的方式才能……"],["林委員倩綺：所以本席建議，在道安、長照、社福跟都市規劃的相關單位，應該做一個跨部會的處理跟整合，因為這些地方是高齡人口經常會去走動的，您剛才講的是時間上的問題，但是有沒有可能做一個高齡人口活動熱區的道路安全總體檢討，至少讓他在生活上跟交通安全上能夠扣連在一起，去減低高齡人口交通事故的比例，這個部分可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您的建議其實非常好，我可以請運輸研究所來做這方面的研究，如果在高齡者比較有行動的熱區部分，我們對於當區的整體交通該怎麼做改善，我覺得這個應該會相當有意義，這個部分我們回去再來做研究。"],["林委員倩綺：是！我也提醒您是不是應該訂一個改善的期程？比如哪一年要進做到高齡事故的減半計畫？因為您剛剛也說投入了一些經費，或者是仿效國外的Vision Zero零事故死亡的政策，可能期程要比較具體的訂定出來，您如果投入的是4年經費。短、中、長期大概每一段時間要進行到哪裡，我想這樣會比較具體。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分我們其實是針對整體的行人安全跟整體的交通安全在做改善，您剛剛所提醒的就是針對高齡者要不要再做更特別的規劃，這個部分我們會再規劃，但是一般行人的改善跟……"],["林委員倩綺：因為高齡者碰到事故的比例非常高。"],["陳部長世凱：當然，就是機車、老人跟酒駕都是相當高的肇事狀態，其實這個部分在這幾年的改善已經有看到一些成效，也確實都在下降當中，數據看起來都在下降當中，但是您所提醒的高齡者的部分……"],["林委員倩綺：是有一點在提高。"],["陳部長世凱：我們會另外再研究，看怎麼樣再來提升他們的安全。"],["林委員倩綺：對，就針對這個部分，可能要一個具體的時程。道路不只是移動的空間也是生活的延伸，所以剛才本席才針對高齡者活動的場域，希望你們做一個總檢討跟整體的設計。","您剛才其實也提到酒駕或者是我們未來要探討的危險駕駛的部分，111年警察交通執法與事故處理的滿意度調查，其中很多人對於危險駕車有一些怨言，大概100人當中會有40人，依照警政署去年通報的統計，危險駕車的汽車違規占比有七成五，不遵行方向行駛的機車違規占比有八成四，另外汽車占比高的項目是危險駕車有75.32%，然後超出速限40公里以下的占了72.79%。這一些數據其實代表危險駕駛跟危險駕車是民眾一直在意的，也凸顯我們交通環境中危險車行的制度性問題，目前你們有沒有在研議科技執法以及提高刑責來產生嚇阻的作用呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分科技執法其實警政署跟地方政府已經有在執行，執行看起來成效也都還不錯，另外針對教育的層面我們也在做努力，工程的層面我們也在做努力。"],["林委員倩綺：對，本席其實有做一個提案，其實就是把交通安全的教育列到我們很基本的教育裡面。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員倩綺：讓大家對於空間開始慢慢有一些感覺跟看法。我引用一下交通部道安司相關的數據，大型車的案件比去年同時期增加137件，整體來講有1萬3,736件，這個例子就跟去年東海大學女大學生被大型車輾過的狀況一樣，因為大型車有很多的死角，去年的事故最主要是大型車沒有看到他又輾了一次，結果一條美麗的生命就這樣子沒有了。大型客車事故的致死率比一般汽車、機車都來得高，你們有沒有思考現行大型車輛駕駛訓練的標準，能不能應付很多元的道路狀況，尤其是在繁忙的時間跟路段比較複雜行駛時的挑戰？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，針對小型車跟大型車都一樣，我們現在正在做整體駕訓機制的檢討。"],["林委員倩綺：所以也可能駕訓的部分會有一些調整？"],["陳部長世凱：當你駕訓的機制做檢討跟調整之後，客運的司機駕駛整體的訓練就會不一樣，這是一方面。二方面，我們針對公司，也就是在監理層面針對客運公司的要求，也希望他們能夠落實我們的要求到客運駕駛，對於一些我們新的規則的要求要落實，還有他們的開車習慣……"],["林委員倩綺：剛才講的也是不錯啦，我們從司機的質開始做整體的調整跟改變，當然你們在外部的環境，像你們要針對駕駛行為，另外制度也是有一些需要改進的，包括道路的設計還有交通文化的部分，我覺得這樣比較治本而不是只有治標，你們是不是有制定長期的計畫？特別是針對青少年跟新駕駛人的交通安全宣導活動，不知道你們有沒有短、中、長期的計畫。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，計畫我們都有，運研所前一陣子才做出一套系統，我們針對國小、國中跟高中，用一種沉浸式的模式透過平板讓他學習在道路上，包含走路要怎麼走，怎麼樣過馬路，然後怎麼樣才會安全，包含騎腳踏車、包含騎摩托車也都有，全部都有融入到教育的層面。"],["林委員倩綺：您剛才有提到平板，不過本席認為真正在實地空間的模擬跟訓練是重要的，要不然有些東西我們看了，但是碰到實際狀況的反應是不一樣的，本席在這邊做個提醒。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們在各個縣市其實也儘量在建置交通安全的學習園區，這個學習園區就是要讓我們的年輕人或者是小朋友，在園區可以學習到實際在道路上可能會遇到的狀況，這個部分我們正在處置。"],["林委員倩綺：所以這一點把本席的建議納入進去，對於空間的實際感覺是很重要的。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。接下來本席要為地方請命，因為過去本席在嘉義工作，常常有走動的機會，本席發現嘉義市是目前全國唯一沒有跟高鐵連接軌道的城市，這個問題很久了，這個問題很奇怪的不單純只有行政問題，而是中央對於區域交通的正義、公益、產業平衡的發展，還有對歷史的承諾，都有一點狀況。高鐵嘉義市站是唯一沒有軌道連結的運輸系統，你可以想像一個每一年超過630萬人次的高鐵站，竟然沒有一個軌道系統來連結，不是很奇怪嗎？這樣的斷點，如果依照我們瞭解是中央規劃有一些缺失，還有長年政策失衡的結果。","交通部在民國88年就已經完成嘉義高鐵聯外道路的可行性評估，當時高鐵局長明確的表示運量達到了之後就要進行鋪設，而行政院也在94年直接核復交通部辦理BRT的階段性方案，這就是我們目前在搭的。這個BRT現在運量每一年已經達到130萬人次，尖峰時段還常常會客滿，本席也常常搭不到，本席因為問了這個部分才發現中央竟然說在軌道的部分要地方政府來分擔，這似乎有點奇怪，不知道部長您對這個事情的看法如何？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，輕軌系統跟捷運系統都是地方辦理事項，所以各個縣市都一樣，都是地方政府在主導。"],["林委員倩綺：本席這邊先提醒，全國高鐵的軌道系統應該大部分都是由中央全額負擔的，這是依照大眾捷運法第十三條的規定，你們應該用這樣的高度來看全國軌道的網絡。"],["陳部長世凱：當時的決議就是做BRT。"],["林委員倩綺：但是BRT現在的運量已經足夠了，結果你們現在卻叫他們用下位的審查作業要點規範，叫地方政府來負擔，我想針對所有的高鐵與聯外的軌道，似乎對嘉義縣市有些不公平，您的看法呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實各縣市都一樣，只要是輕軌跟捷運系統，全部都是地方……"],["林委員倩綺：但是這個輕軌系統是從高鐵延伸出去的網絡，從高鐵嘉義站到臺鐵嘉義站，這個部分中央應該難辭其咎吧！您的看法呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分嘉義縣市自己也要有共識，因為目前我聽起來嘉義縣政府當然是樂觀其成，但是對於經費上面，他們也是有一些意見，那嘉義市政府也是希望中央全額……"],["林委員倩綺：對啊，所以本席今天提醒您，其他的軌道像新竹的六家支線、臺中的捷運路線、臺南的沙崙支線，還有機場線，這些都是中央出資來興建的，把嘉義縣市排除在外有點不公平，是不是可以請你們再努力討論、規劃及研議呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，有一個癥結點，這個工程款是374億，如果中央可以負擔的話是工程款本身的372億，地方只負責用地費用的0.66億跟嘉義縣的0.94億，他們要負擔的都不足1億，中央可以負擔372億，但是連這樣都談不攏，都要中央全額負擔。"],["林委員倩綺：中央有沒有可能跟嘉義市這邊再來共同研議這樣的可能性？"],["卓院長榮泰：一方面又要依財政收支劃分法全部移給地方，又要讓中央全部……地方連這個1億都不負擔，這個太為難中央了。"],["林委員倩綺：等一下，院長，財劃法是今年的事情，而我們剛才談的是好幾年前的事，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊，現在就是這個狀況，地方連1億都不負擔。"],["林委員倩綺：做一個研議好嗎？不要拿現在的變數把過去的東西都全部抹滅掉，這是我給你們的建議，大家再來談談看，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我再強調，372億是中央付，地方1億而已，他們也不要負擔。"],["林委員倩綺：我最後很快的講兩點。第一個，最近有關花東的觀光巴士，交通部觀光署有一個補助，補助的立意良好，可是卻引起地方業者的反彈，是不是有可能你們跟地方業者再多談一下？你們立意良好的東西，結果地方業者不接受，是否有些負面的衝擊你們可能不知道，是不是可以再……"],["陳部長世凱：看是什麼樣的反彈，我們再跟委員請示。"],["林委員倩綺：好的。第二個，很重要的一點，我上個禮拜參加秀姑巒溪遊客中心的開幕，我要提醒的是，雖然你們未來在公共藝術的意象上有原住民，但是不要忘了，原先的原住民意象是非常明顯的，本席在此跟你們討論跟建議，原住民的意象不能小於之前的那個原住民意象，那是我們共同的記憶，有沒有可能？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我們會注意。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。"],["委員林倩綺書面補充資料：","案由：本院林委員倩綺，針對高鐵嘉義站聯外軌道運輸建設之規劃與進度、觀光署推動「台灣觀巴」補助專案衍生之地方產業問題、秀姑巒溪遊客中心地景再造等議題，特向行政院提出質詢。","說明：","敦請中央履行承諾啟動嘉義輕軌建設","交通部於民國88年即完成高鐵嘉義站聯外輕軌運輸系統可行性評估報告，並於94年3月24日獲行政院核復同意所報之「高鐵嘉義站聯外BRT執行方案」，該核復文件明確指示請交通部參考路廊運量之成長情形，適時提出輕軌建設計畫。目前高鐵嘉義站113年度進出站旅客人次已達635萬，台鐵嘉義站推估旅次亦達756萬人次，顯示高鐵與台鐵間聯外運輸路廊運量已臻高峰，亟需以軌道運輸系統進行強化整合，方能紓解旅運壓力並提升整體運輸效率。惟目前全國高鐵各站聯外軌道運輸皆由中央主政推動，唯獨嘉義站雖已規劃，卻遲遲未見實質進度，形成區域發展明顯落差，亦不符中央推動高鐵軌道連網政策一體貫徹之精神。高鐵嘉義站聯外輕軌建設係屬中央責任，行政院核復文件明載應視運量適時提出建設計畫，如今條件已成熟，中央有責續辦推動，嘉義地方首長與議員發起連署敦促中央，本席亦高度關注。","具體詢問事項如下：","一、行政院94年核復文件明示「請交通部參考路廊運量再適時提出輕軌計畫」，請問交通部是否已就此進一步規劃與報請行政院？若尚未執行，請說明原因與時程規劃。","二、請交通部具體說明是否願依據原核復文件與現況條件，啟動高鐵嘉義站聯外輕軌計畫，並提出明確推動期程與中央支持機制？","觀巴補助專案再檢討","觀光署推動之「台灣觀巴」補助專案，原意在於促進觀光旅遊與國人出遊意願。然而，本席接獲多位宜花東地區地方業者反映，該專案實施前缺乏與在地旅遊業者的充分溝通，導致政策內容未能兼顧地方產業實況，產生嚴重負面效應。特別是在實施免費或半價優惠之後，觀光型態似乎出現明顯變化，旅客多以當天往返為主，平均停留時間縮短約三成，直接衝擊當地旅宿業，導致整體地方消費下滑，與政策原先促進觀光之目標背道而馳。","質詢事項如下：","一、請問觀光署，推動「台灣觀巴」專案時是否有事前預估其對地方產業（特別是住宿與餐飲）可能造成的衝擊？對於地方反映停留時間縮短、消費降低的情形，觀光署是否已掌握其真實狀況？後續是否有因應與調整作為？","二、本席具體提出以下四項建議，請觀光署逐項說明是否同意納入政策規劃，並請具體說明可行性與推動時程：","1.檢討補助設計原則：未來補助方案應以提升旅客停留時間與地方實質消費為目標，避免補助設計造成觀光型態失衡。觀光署是否認同此原則？是否願意納入未來補助政策規劃？","2.建立地方溝通機制：未來涉及地方觀光市場之政策措施，應先與地方政府及在地業者充分溝通協調，達成共識後方可實施。請問觀光署是否同意此原則並願建立制度化機制？","3.公開補助成效：建議觀光署定期公布補助對住宿率、餐飲消費等具體經濟指標之影響，並依據成效滾動式檢討政策方向。觀光署是否願意承諾資訊公開與政策透明化？","4.保障中小型業者參與機會：未來補助設計應納入中小型業者參與保障機制，避免資源集中於大型旅行社，並維持地方旅遊產業生態多元健全。觀光署是否願意採納並提出具體作法？","秀姑巒溪遊客中心地景再造","本席提醒觀光署，目前規劃中的「花蓮瑞穗秀姑巒溪泛舟遊客中心改建案」，不應僅視為一般基礎設施更新工程，而應審慎認知此案實質上為一項關乎地方空間記憶重構與文化地景再造的空間治理工程。該遊客中心自1982年啟用以來，四十餘年間作為花東縱谷門戶意象的關鍵地標。其中尤以「大頭目塔樓」為代表，其已成為地方文化象徵。惟於2022年918地震後，因結構安全疑慮而決議拆除，並於2023年4月完成。儘管安全考量無可厚非，但其所引發之地方居民反應，已清楚反映地景所承載的，遠不僅是建築機能，而是社群記憶、生活節奏與地景認同的具體體現。未來新設施之設計與興建，應嚴肅面對地方居民的期待、體察原住民族文化傳統在地景中的精神延續，充分與在地部落、居民溝通，避免僅以單一視覺高度或符號造形草率象徵原住民意象，並應參酌原地景，以不小於原有建築規模的方案，展現在地原住民文化。此案的推動，攸關地方與中央對空間正義、文化治理與永續觀光的真正理解與實踐。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請林沛祥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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散入者格殺勿論我小時候海邊都是有這支所以我們真正的漁港不多到現在來講大概只有三個地方新湖 復國敦跟羅柱所以海上觀光也不大發達現在我們漁船的數量 金門漁船數量總共的數量是兩百多艘"},{"start":52.662,"end":67.454,"text":"那可以停的這個漁船的這個博位也是大概現在只有170個那當然最近這幾年在我們向中央爭取之下也有逐漸增加那大概也會到200多個但是呢200多個以後接著最近金門縣政府要開放這個"},{"start":70.076,"end":88.938,"text":"台灣的漁船入籍到金門所以第一個漁船的博位會不足那更重要的是還有當然漁船這是經濟部漁業署那邊那更重要的是還有交通部管轄的自用小船金門的這個自用小船大概現在有400多艘那現在自用小船的停泊的這個博位有多少呢大概只有大概"},{"start":90.319,"end":114.438,"text":"今年如果這個金門遊艇基地那個完成以後今年提竣工以後大概可以提供55個位置那九宮碼頭提供15個位置那大概就是70個位置那事實上金門的自用小船大概有400個位置所以我想請問院長是不是支持也請這個部長這邊是不是支持我們金門這個部分你們是不是應該做規劃因為現在的確已經不足了"},{"start":114.878,"end":142.935,"text":"現在自用小船的泊位不足的情況下讓他們跟漁船的停泊常常發生糾紛就漁船的位置也不夠嘛那自用小船的位置非常不夠那當然自用小船是發展海上觀光的一個要點而且因為金門的大陸距現在有時候小三中介往來有時開始有大陸員因為廈門那邊有香山遊艇啊什麼有時候也願意到坐遊艇到我們金門旅遊坐正常的客輪以外所以這個部分的話是不是我們行政院這邊有沒有什麼做法"},{"start":143.916,"end":155.434,"text":"興建這個相關的這個國委請部長回答 但是我跟委員報告一件事情行政院對於離島地區能夠發揮離島在地的特色文化的任何的構想我們都願意很"},{"start":156.278,"end":177.436,"text":"節省的跟大家來討論 這個有助於觀光事業那至於說 海港船舶的管理 請部長來說明但是不夠席位啦 碼頭博位不夠報告委員 在111年到115年的這個計畫裡面我們已經補助金門縣政府2.47億元來建設這個博區 來興建55席的博位對我知道 55以後再加15 那個我應該算給你"},{"start":181.139,"end":206.737,"text":"那現在聽起來是狀況來看還是可能不夠還是差很多啊 差好幾百個博文所以我們還是會繼續跟縣政府這邊來溝通有沒有可能我們再增加這樣子的建制跟建設現在這個我們原來原來水頭跟九宮那個地方 事實上我們有實際去看所以交通部也找時間可以請航空局看就原來大小金門 現在有金門大小原來那個在坐船的那個地方也就沒有需要大小金門的船嘛"},{"start":207.057,"end":219.124,"text":"那邊就可以在偵測很簡單的就可以很快的偵測一些博位出來讓這個自用小船有停的地方才不會在金門常常有糾紛發生不管自用小船跟漁船就會常常為了搶博位這個東西縣政府也是一定支持只是說"},{"start":224.187,"end":252.41,"text":"可能是不是動作要快一點 這個經費的部分那事實上也不一定需要非常多錢 因為做這個碼頭而已嘛做這個可以停靠的國衛而已是不是這個規劃是不是可以快一點啊我知道110年代110年有這個規劃 但是55席和15席太少了現在的海上觀光 因為小三通開始以後現在海上觀光也越來越蓬勃發展這是五一的時候 就是剛過去這個到五一的年假我們一天就來了四五千個 入客啦 所以"},{"start":252.91,"end":267.302,"text":"所以這個觀光發展是現在比較蓬勃發展但是就是說漁船還有這個交通自用小船的博位是遠遠不夠啊這個會引起很大的治安糾紛一直發生你盡快找時間是不是我也歡迎您過去啊"},{"start":268.803,"end":276.187,"text":"跟部長還沒過去 歡迎您到金門去實際考察看看好 謝謝您那接著我想請教自由貿易港區的問題行政院經貿談判辦公室5月3號有發布新聞稿說我們的團隊 我們政府的團隊已經在美東時間5月1號結束在華府就對等關稅等經貿議題和美國已經完成首輪的實體磋商 對吧"},{"start":294.598,"end":316.574,"text":"這個新聞稿有寫嘛是由我們副院長鄭麗君副院長還有我們談判總代表楊正麗帶隊會談氣氛坦誠榮恰雙方都表達對強化台美經貿合作的共同期待是這樣吧是的好 那我想請教您就是談判裡頭當然就是gift take我給你什麼你給我什麼在第一回合談判裡頭我們有沒有獲得具體的降稅承諾"},{"start":318.604,"end":340.637,"text":"降稅 現在不是要32%嗎原來我們只有很少 你既然談判會談氣氛樓下嘛那大家都有共同強化合作的期待那有沒有什麼具體的承諾報告委員 談判是一個整體的過程開始的第一次談判 雙方把自己的立場充分交涉之後一定會有下一次更具體的但是有沒有具體的承諾 我沒有要你告訴我什麼承諾有沒有獲得什麼具體的承諾"},{"start":343.138,"end":344.298,"text":"談判一定到最後才能夠依照國際慣例跟雙方的默契我們在過程當中"},{"start":365.646,"end":380.876,"text":"都不能說我們有過...沒有我沒有叫你告訴我談判的內容是什麼或具體的承諾有沒有在過程中他們有說具體說好你沒有叫我告訴你可是你問的就是這樣子沒有你不用告訴我內容有沒有具體的承諾沒有就對了好沒有沒關係談判第一次的過程是交換我們的方案是很具體的"},{"start":385.058,"end":391.926,"text":"對方還沒有承諾還在一個過程還沒有承諾但是有過程而已談判是一個過程過程當中我們已經在相當優先的位置就是還沒有到後面還在來來回回還沒有什麼具體的結果應該這樣講就還沒有承諾"},{"start":400.615,"end":402.296,"text":"這幾天我們看到新台幣不停的升值這個是不是我們給美國的承諾"},{"start":416.932,"end":438.901,"text":"談判的過程沒有涉及任何匯率相關議題所以我們沒有給美國這個承諾說我們這個新台幣沒有談到任何匯率的相關議題沒有談 給你機會講清楚因為這兩天這個升值實在是太嚴重了我們行政院的新聞稿對外也甚至講了總統在昨天的講話當中也講了談判過程沒有涉及到任何匯率的相關議題"},{"start":439.781,"end":467.288,"text":"那如果沒有這樣的話這兩天的這個新台幣匯率這個升值對國內的這個出口產業很多產業影響太大了那你們就 既然我們也沒有給美方承諾說我們一定要新台幣升值嘛那你們就應該要有你們的做法出來你們應該就是要看看國內產業受衝擊有多大影響太大很多產業再下去如果繼續這樣往下走的話已經很多產業受不了了這個你也不會比我不了解齁那我想你這個可能要相當注意啦齁"},{"start":468.328,"end":497.247,"text":"下去就會帶來失業潮很多事情很多工廠可能就沒有辦法往下移然後接著會帶來的後續的很多反應連鎖反應會更大這一點你們要特別注意那當然不管你們有沒有承諾我們反正現在就是相信政府吧謝謝來 接著我想請問民進黨委員之前一直在講說我所提的那個離島的自由貿易港區那我想請問美國貿易代表有沒有在這次會議中有沒有談到我們金門不能成立離島自由貿易港區"},{"start":498.681,"end":512.016,"text":"這又是談判內容 我怎麼會說有沒有呢所以你也不知道對不對你心裡應該知道不可能談到這個細節嘛你不知道細節喔 這樣很嚴重喔你心裡應該知道不可能談到這種細節不可能有嘛 所以不可能有談到嘛 對不對"},{"start":513.678,"end":536.955,"text":"我以為你不知道細節 反正不可能談到啊 不可能談到什麼金門成立自由貿易港區吧那也 所以說 或者說他關切息產地嘛因為金門還沒有成立嘛所以他關切息產地這個議題嘛 之前說的那就是指 那如果關切息產地 現在如果自由貿易港區對趙民進黨立委的說法是一個可能息產地的地方那我們就要考慮說是現在有的這個自由貿易港區現在有自由貿易港區有幾個 您知道嗎"},{"start":538.776,"end":553.106,"text":"七個 七個齁 那自由貿易港區成立的先決條件是什麼這個部長知道嗎應該是要去國際港要去國際港 對 非常正確 要去國際港齁那我想請問一下 自由貿易港區成立後交通費要不要管理啊"},{"start":554.204,"end":573.397,"text":"自由貿易港區那個地方都是交通部管理的要不要管理?要嘛,對不對?要不要進行業務查核啊?還是就放任他?我們配合經濟部跟財政部都有在做查核每年都要進行一次查核啦那我想請問,你說要自由貿易港又要是國際港嘛那安平港那時候不是國際港,為什麼也可以成立自由貿易港區?台南安平港台南安平港我們這資料有,我們有去查了"},{"start":578.752,"end":584.018,"text":"後來港務公司投入 後來才升現在是啦 現在升級啦所以我想請問啦 那我們今天港現在是什麼港國內商港 那我們也可以提升為國際港吧"},{"start":596.492,"end":621.205,"text":"目前沒有這個討論怎麼會沒有這個討論呢金門現在你認為金門現在沒有這個需求嗎目前沒有討論金門成為國際商港那我想請問金門現在是什麼港院長金門現在是什麼港那都是國內商港是國內商港嗎國際商港一定有他的量先不要講量還有重要是航線的安全跟穩定這些都要考慮的我說國際港是國際之間的往來嘛對不對是不是國際之間的往來嘛廈門屬於哪一國"},{"start":625.831,"end":627.833,"text":"中華人民共和國 中華民國 互不隸屬金門已經在走國際航線"},{"start":637.076,"end":657.256,"text":"不是嗎走國際航線不一定完全就是一個國際港走國際航線不是國際港所以他沒有成立國際航線要見我們都在走國際航線了咧他必須要有安全的航道安全航道要注意是你們後來應該那是管理上的問題小三通或是其他的行為這個都是我們雙方在現在這個機制底下去面對"},{"start":658.377,"end":681.013,"text":"我要講一下我們這個自由貿易港區的申請為什麼要去離島建設條例修這個東西齁這個原因是這樣子如果我們是一個兩岸港或是你說的國內港小山東港不然還有什麼不叫國際港我們就只好修離島建設條例比照自由貿易港區來做自由貿易港好那如果我們不是我們是國際港的話我們就變成國際港我們就可以直接試用我們不用修離島建設條例啊你這個邏輯錯不是修"},{"start":684.958,"end":704.547,"text":"離島條例讓他成為國際港是在必須國際港的條件我們才來做配套我們修離島階段就是一個還不足以成為一個我們所謂的我們修離島階段條例就是要修一個特別法讓他適用因為我們既然被你們認為不是 交通部認為基本不是國際港所以我們就要修一個特別法在離島階段條例以後比照自貿港的條例"},{"start":705.487,"end":728.235,"text":"原來的一樣東西搬到離島街條裡頭我們就可以適用嘛那如果你們認為我們是國際港我們連修都不用修我們就適用就好我們就直接適用國際港的自由貿易港的辦法就好了嘛所以我也想知道我們明確定位是什麼既然賴總統我非常尊重賴總統而且我相信我們的總統既然賴總統您剛剛好 院長您剛剛也說了廈門是中華人民共和國金門是中華民國而且賴總統說兩邊互不隸屬嘛"},{"start":731.656,"end":750.021,"text":"那不就兩國與國之間的關係就是國際港國和國之間不叫國際叫什麼咧所以我們這邊也是一個國際港啊所以就是基於這種地位的特殊當初設立的小山東等等就是跑這個地位特殊關係特殊的狀況之下沒有 你剛才也說啦 既然中華人民共和國和中華民國是互不隸屬嘛 對不對"},{"start":751.121,"end":767.747,"text":"我也說了國際港它必須要安全穩定的安全是後來的事情安全是管理的問題現在金門是不是在對方艦機經常侵擾的情況之下它是不是安全穩定的它除了中華人民共和國跟中華民國來往之外它會不會有其他第三國家來參與呢軍機更常侵擾台灣本島啊那這些港口都不能變成國際港港本島有很多第三國家會來參與會來進出你了解我的意思嗎我們也可以變國際港香港的船也可以過來那個過來來我講到這個我舉例"},{"start":780.771,"end":796.643,"text":"金門的機場就有國際包機啊 日本飛機也來飛啊越南也來飛啊 我們都飛去越南的啊你不是先想說 我們要先有這個條件成為嘛然後後面的管理是後面的事情嘛 對不對你要先給我們這個機會嘛要循序漸進 安撫就班好 那你要怎麼樣讓我們循序漸進我們要爭取這個 你要怎麼樣讓我們循序漸進我可以不要在離老街的條例修啊但是你要讓我變成國際法會 你幫我升格啊安平港就是升格的啊"},{"start":805.55,"end":830.74,"text":"或者你就把我認為現在就是國際港委員提出的領導建制條例 其中並不只有這個重點對 可以討論 所有的法令都是可以討論的 好不好修法就是一個討論 民主就是討論的過程我的意思就是說 如果這樣子 因為按照賴總統的意思我們現在就是國際港了啊 你剛剛有回答我啊中華民國和中華人民共和國 那國和國之間往來怎麼不叫國際呢就是因為 修法提出來就是一個討論的過程就很多委員討論是反對的"},{"start":833.154,"end":846.492,"text":"民進黨委員討論反對吧當然民進黨委員反對因為他們就說會洗產地啊或怎麼樣他們就抹黑我們離島的發展嘛那安平港就不會洗產地高雄港就不會洗產地那所謂洗產地怎麼越南泰國離中國大陸越南先聽我講"},{"start":849.636,"end":873.309,"text":"你聽我講 當然要管制啊越南跟泰國離中國道很遠啊不是被洗產地你不會因為我們地理位置比較近就說我們會洗產地那高雄 安平 基隆 台北港我都有去看過啊他們就不會洗產地只有我們金門會洗產地我跟你講金門才不會洗產地因為金門地方很小每個人都幾乎彼此認識只要有人做洗產地馬上今天做明天就會被抓啦我跟你講金門就是這種很小的地方啊做不了什麼壞事的地方啊"},{"start":873.809,"end":899.925,"text":"所以金門反而是一個很好管制的地方真的 金門就是一個這樣的地方我認識你三代 你認識我五代這種地方所以很容易管制我也不反對 本來就要管制我也剛說最後馬上要江湖每一年都每個月都要去查核我們支持啊我們只是想祈求跟台灣本島這些港口有一樣的地位而已我們不是想要特別做什麼你知道嗎我們只是祈求你給我們金門這樣的機會而已對於離島的特色文化行政院都願意支持"},{"start":900.746,"end":912.659,"text":"所以這個 發揮觀光 發揮商業活動的可能性我們都願意支持那這個要循序漸進 按部就班的討論在國家安全情況底下 我們要列為優先重點這個要循序漸進 按部就班的討論"},{"start":922.559,"end":929.806,"text":"好,謝謝陳委員也謝謝卓院長報告院會休息十分鐘休息之後繼續進行質問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":224,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（10時21分）謝謝主席，請院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["陳委員玉珍：院長早。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為金門早期是戰地，所以很多基礎建設都是國防部幫我們做的，海岸線也因為受軍事管制，所以都是……比如說，我們不能下海，很多沿海的海岸線相關產業就不發達，因為「軍事管制區，擅入者格殺勿論」，我小時候看到海邊都有這些字，因此我們真正的漁港不多，到現在大概只有三個地方，新湖、復國墩跟羅厝，海上觀光也不太發達。","現在我們金門漁船數量總共是兩百多艘，可以停漁船的泊位也大概只有170個，最近這幾年在我們向中央爭取之下有逐漸增加，大概也會到兩百多個，但是兩百多個以後，最近金門縣政府又要開放臺灣的漁船入籍到金門，所以漁船的泊位會不足，當然漁船是經濟部漁業署那邊負責，但更重要的還有交通部管轄的自用小船，現在金門的自用小船大概有四百多艘，那現在自用小船的停泊泊位有多少呢？如果今年金門遊艇基地完成，今年底竣工以後大概可以提供55個位置，九宮碼頭提供15個位置，那就是70個位置。事實上，金門的自用小船要400個位置，所以我想請問院長和部長，對於我們金門這部分，你們是不是應該做規劃？因為現在的確已經不足了，在自用小船泊位不足的情況下，使他們跟漁船之間的停泊常常發生糾紛，漁船的位置不夠，自用小船的位置是非常不夠。自用小船是發展海上觀光的要點，而且因為金門離大陸近，現在有小三通的自由往來，大陸廈門那邊開始有香山遊艇，他們有時候除了坐正常客輪以外，也願意坐遊艇到我們金門旅遊，關於這個部分，行政院這邊有沒有什麼做法？針對興建相關的泊位。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，請部長回答。但是我跟委員報告一件事情，行政院對於離島地區能夠發揮離島在地特色文化的任何構想，我們都願意很竭誠的跟大家討論，這個有助於觀光事業……"],["陳委員玉珍：是，但是沒有……"],["卓院長榮泰：至於海港船舶的管理，我請部長來說明。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是碼頭的泊位不夠。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，在111年到115年的計畫裡面，我們已經補助金門縣政府2.47億元來建設泊區，興建55席的泊位……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，我知道……"],["陳部長世凱：這樣聽起來……"],["陳委員玉珍：55以後再加15，我一樣算給你是70嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：現在聽起來，以這個狀況來看，可能還是不夠……"],["陳委員玉珍：還是差很多啊！差好幾百個泊位。"],["陳部長世凱：我們交通部還是會繼續跟縣政府溝通，看有沒有可能再增加這樣子的建置跟建設，有可能的話，我們會來協助。"],["陳委員玉珍：原來水頭跟九宮那個地方，事實上我們有實際去看，交通部也可以找時間請航港局去看，大、小金門現在有金門大橋，原來坐船的地方沒有需要大、小金門的船，那邊可以很簡單的再增設一些泊位出來，讓自用小船有停的地方，才不會常常在金門有糾紛發生，自用小船跟漁船常常為了搶泊位……"],["陳部長世凱：我們來跟縣政府溝通，看那個地方可不可以空出來使用。"],["陳委員玉珍：這東西縣政府一定支持，只是動作可能要快一點，尤其是經費部分。事實上不一定需要非常多錢，因為只是做碼頭而已、做可以停靠的泊位而已。"],["陳部長世凱：對，泊位而已。"],["陳委員玉珍：規劃是不是可以快一點？我知道110年到115年有這個規劃，但55席、15席實在太少了。尤其小三通開始後，現在海上觀光越來越蓬勃發展。像大陸剛過去的五一連假，金門一天就來了四、五千名陸客，所以現在觀光是比較蓬勃發展的，但漁船和交通自用小船的泊位卻遠遠不夠，這會引起很大的治安糾紛，而且是一直一直發生。部長是不是儘快找時間來？我也歡迎你到金門來。"],["陳部長世凱：我們會跟縣政府溝通。"],["陳委員玉珍：部長還沒去過金門，歡迎你帶著航港局長到金門實地考察看看。謝謝部長。","接下來我想請教自由貿易港區的問題。院長，行政院經貿談判辦公室5月3日發布新聞稿說，我們的政府團隊已經在美東時間5月1日結束在華府就對等關稅等經貿議題和美國完成首輪的實體磋商，對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：這點新聞稿有寫，由副院長鄭麗君及談判總代表楊珍妮帶隊，會談氣氛坦誠融洽，雙方都表達對強化臺美經貿合作有共同期待，是這樣嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：我想請教你，所謂談判當然就是give & take，我給你什麼，你給我什麼。請問在第一輪談判裡，我們有沒有獲得具體的降稅承諾？"],["卓院長榮泰：具體的什麼？"],["陳委員玉珍：降稅，現在它不是要32%嗎？原來我們只課很少。既然說會談氣氛融洽，且大家都有共同強化合作的期待，所以有沒有什麼具體承諾？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，談判是一個整體過程，開始的第一次談判，雙方把自己的立場充分交涉之後，下一次一定會有更具體的談判。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，但是有沒有具體的承諾？我沒有要你告訴我什麼承諾，但有沒有獲得什麼具體的承諾？有沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：談判還不到……"],["陳委員玉珍：有沒有承諾？至於內容是什麼，因為還在談判，你可以不用告訴我。但是有沒有獲得什麼具體的承諾？"],["卓院長榮泰：談判一定要到最後才能依照國際慣例跟雙方的默契……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以現在還沒有什麼具體的承諾？好，我們有沒有給它什麼具體的承諾？我方有沒有給美方什麼具體的承諾？"],["卓院長榮泰：還是那句話，談判一定要依照國際慣例跟雙方的默契，在過程當中不能說我們有……"],["陳委員玉珍：我沒有要你告訴我談判的內容是什麼，或具體承諾什麼！但在過程中他們有沒有具體說……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員雖然說不用告訴你，可是你問的就是這樣子。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有、沒有，你不用告訴我內容。我只問有沒有具體承諾？沒有就對了？沒有沒關係，因為還在過程中，我理解。"],["卓院長榮泰：第一次談判的過程是交換……我們的方案是有，我們的方案是很具體的。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是對方還沒有承諾，就是還在過程中，還沒有承諾，但是有過程而已。"],["卓院長榮泰：談判是一個過程，現在還在過程當中。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是過程，還沒到後面？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們已經在相當優先的位置。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是還沒到後面……"],["卓院長榮泰：當然還沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：還在來來回回，還沒有什麼具體的結果。應該這樣講，還沒有承諾，就是沒有結果。"],["卓院長榮泰：為下一次的談判奠定良好基礎……"],["陳委員玉珍：也就是說還在談判過程，還沒有完全有什麼承諾產生，但還在繼續談，至少是一個氣氛融洽的談判，這樣講沒錯吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：我想請問，這幾天我們看到新臺幣不停升值，這是不是我們給美國的承諾？"],["卓院長榮泰：談判過程沒有涉及任何匯率相關的議題。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以我們沒有承諾美國說新臺幣……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有談到任何匯率相關的議題。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有談？我是給你機會講清楚，因為這兩天新臺幣升值得實在太嚴重了。"],["卓院長榮泰：楊總裁講了，行政院新聞稿也對外講了，甚至昨天總統在講話當中也講了，談判過程沒有涉及到任何匯率的相關議題。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果沒有的話……但這兩天新臺幣匯率升值對國內很多出口產業影響太大了！"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：既然我們沒有給美方承諾說一定讓新臺幣升值，那麼你們就應該要有你們的作法出來，你們要看看國內產業受衝擊有多大！因為影響實在太大，如果再繼續這樣往下走，會有很多產業……現在已經有很多產業受不了，這點你不會比我不了解，所以要相當注意。我擔心這樣下去會帶來失業潮……"],["卓院長榮泰：這點我們的觀察是一樣的。"],["陳委員玉珍：很多事情、很多工廠可能就沒有辦法下去，後續會帶來很多反應，且連鎖反應會更大，這點請特別注意。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們非常謹慎。"],["陳委員玉珍：當然不管你們有沒有承諾，我們現在反正就是相信政府。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：接著我想請問，民進黨委員之前一直說我所提的離島自由貿易港區的問題，請問美國貿易代表有沒有在這次會議中談到金門不能成立離島自由貿易港區？"],["卓院長榮泰：這又是談判內容，我怎麼能說有或沒有？"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你也不知道，對不對？有沒有把金門成立自由貿易港區……"],["卓院長榮泰：你心裡應該知道不可能談到這種細節嘛！"],["陳委員玉珍：你不知道細節？這樣很嚴重喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：你心裡應該知道不可能談到這種細節！"],["陳委員玉珍：不可能有、不可能有談到，對不對？我以為你不知道細節。反正不可能談到啦，不可能談到什麼金門成立自由貿易港區嘛。或者說他關切洗產地吧，因為金門還沒有成立嘛……"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以他關切洗產地這個議題嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：洗產地、違規轉運、出口管制。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，他關切洗產地，現在如果自由貿易港區，照民進黨立委的說法，是一個可能洗產地的地方，那我們就要考慮現有的自由貿易港區。現有的自由貿易港區有幾個，您知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：7個。"],["陳委員玉珍：7個？好。那自由貿易港區成立的先決條件是什麼？部長知道嗎？院長知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：應該要是國際港。"],["陳委員玉珍：要是國際港，對，非常正確，要是國際港。我想請問，自由貿易港區成立以後，交通部要不要管理？"],["陳部長世凱：自由貿易港區那個地方都是交通部管理。"],["陳委員玉珍：要不要管理？要嘛，對不對？要不要進行業務查核？還是就放任它？"],["陳部長世凱：我們配合經濟部跟財政部都有在做查核，最近都有在加強。"],["陳委員玉珍：每年都要進行一次查核啦。我想請問，你說自由貿易港要是國際港，臺南安平港那時候不是國際港，為什麼也可以成立自由貿易港區？"],["陳部長世凱：臺南安平港？"],["陳委員玉珍：對，我們這個資料有，我有去查了，後來港務公司投入……"],["陳部長世凱：應該是可以……"],["陳委員玉珍：後來才升……它成立，還沒有升自由貿易港，但後來才……"],["陳部長世凱：它可以做國際的商港，沒有錯。"],["陳委員玉珍：現在是啊，現在升級啦。"],["陳部長世凱：是啊，是啊。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以我想請問，那我們金門港現在是什麼港？"],["陳部長世凱：國內商港。"],["陳委員玉珍：國內商港嘛，那我們也可以提升為國際港吧？"],["陳部長世凱：看需求，目前沒有這個討論。"],["陳委員玉珍：怎麼會沒有這個討論咧，難道你認為金門現在沒有這個需求嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：目前沒有討論金門成為國際商港。"],["陳委員玉珍：那我想請問金門現在是什麼港，院長，金門現在是什麼港？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛說是國內商港……"],["陳委員玉珍：是國內商港嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，國際商港一定有它的量，還有整個航線的……"],["陳委員玉珍：先不要講量，讓它成立，安平港以前沒有……"],["卓院長榮泰：還有重要的是航線的安全跟穩定。"],["陳委員玉珍：對、對、對，這些都要考慮的，我是說國際港就是國際之間的往來嘛，對不對？是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：國際之間的往來嘛，廈門屬於哪一國？"],["卓院長榮泰：中華人民共和國。"],["陳委員玉珍：金門咧？"],["卓院長榮泰：中華民國。"],["陳委員玉珍：這兩個賴總統說……"],["卓院長榮泰：互不隸屬。"],["陳委員玉珍：賴總統說什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：互不隸屬。"],["陳委員玉珍：對啊！賴總統說兩國互不隸屬啊。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：那金門已經在走國際航線了啊，不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：走國際航線不一定完全就是一個國際港，我剛剛說的，它本來必須要有安全的……"],["陳委員玉珍：走國際航線不是國際港，所以它沒有成立國際港的要件喔？我們都在走國際航線了咧！"],["卓院長榮泰：它必須要有一個安全的航道，安全的……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，安全航道要注意是你們後來應該……那是管理上的問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：小三通或是其他的行為，這個都是我們雙方在現在這個基礎底下去面對的。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，我要講一下，我們要申請成為自由貿易港區為什麼要去修離島建設條例這個東西？原因是這樣子，如果我們是一個兩岸港或是你說的國內港、小三通港，不管叫什麼也不叫國際港，我們就只好修離島建設條例，比照自由貿易港區來做自由貿易港。好，那如果我們是國際港的話，我們就變成國際港，我們就可以直接適用，我們不用修離島建設條例啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是、不是，委員，你這個邏輯錯了，不是修離島條例讓它成為國際港，是它必須是國際港的條件，我們才來做配套……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是、不是，沒錯，我們修離島建設條例就是一個……"],["卓院長榮泰：現在它應該還不足以成為一個我們所謂的安全、穩定的國際航線的國際港。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，院長，我們修離島建設條例就是要修一個特別法讓它適用，因為我們既然被你們認為不是、交通部認為金門不是國際港，所以我們就修一個特別法，在離島建設條例裡面比照自貿港的條例，原來一樣的東西搬到離島建設條例裡頭，我們就可以適用嘛。那如果你們認為我們是國際港，我們連修都不用修，我們就適用就好了，我們就直接適用自由貿易港的辦法就好了嘛，所以我很想知道我們明確的定位是什麼？我非常尊重賴總統，而且我相信我們的總統，既然賴總統還有院長您剛剛也說了，廈門是中華人民共和國，金門是中華民國，而且賴總統說兩邊互不隸屬，那不就是國與國之間的關係，就是國際港，國和國之間不叫國際叫什麼咧？所以我們金門也是一個國際港啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以就是基於這種地位的特殊……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以我們不用修法，那我們……"],["卓院長榮泰：當初設立了小三通等等，就是要處理這種地位特殊、關係特殊的狀況。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有，你剛剛也說了，既然中華人民共和國和中華民國是互不隸屬，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我也說了，國際港必須有安全穩定的航線……"],["陳委員玉珍：安全是後來的事情、安全是管理的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是、不是，現在金門在對方艦、機經常侵擾的情況底下，它是不是安全穩定？除了中華人民共和國跟中華民國來往之外，它會不會有其他第三國家來參與呢？"],["陳委員玉珍：不要跟我講軍機，軍機更常侵擾臺灣本島，那這些港口都不能變成國際港囉？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是臺灣本島的港口有很多第三國家的船隻會進出，金門是有可能嗎？"],["陳委員玉珍：我們也可以變國際港，香港的船也可以過來，日本的船也可以過來……"],["卓院長榮泰：它必須要成為……"],["陳委員玉珍：來，講到這個我舉例，金門的機場就有國際包機──日本飛機也來飛，越南也來飛，我們都飛去越南了。你不是想說我們要先有這個條件成為，然後後面的管理是後面的事情嘛，對不對？你要先給我們這個機會嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以要循序漸進、按部就班。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那你要怎麼樣讓我們循序漸進？我們要爭取之後，你要怎麼樣讓我們循序漸進？也可以不要在離島建設條例修啊，但是你要讓我變成國際港或者你幫我升格啊，安平港就是升格的啊，要不然你就把金門認為現在就是國際港。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員提出的離島建設條例其中並不只有這個重點，有非常非常的多。"],["陳委員玉珍：對！可以討論，所有的法令都是可以討論的，好不好？修法就是一個討論，民主就是討論的過程，我的意思就是說，如果這樣子，因為按照賴總統的意思，我們現在就是國際港了，你剛剛有回答我，中華民國和中華人民共和國，那國和國之間往來怎麼不叫國際呢？international……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，就是因為修法提出來就是一個討論的過程，有很多委員討論是反對的。"],["陳委員玉珍：那是民進黨委員討論反對吧！當然民進黨委員反對，因為他們就說會洗產地或怎麼樣的，他們就抹黑我們離島的發展嘛，那安平港就不會洗產地？高雄港就不會洗產地？所謂的洗產地，越南、泰國離中國大陸……"],["卓院長榮泰：對於有可能違規轉運的地方，我們都會強力的管制。"],["陳委員玉珍：先聽我講，你聽我講，當然要管制啊！越南跟泰國離中國大陸很遠啊！還不是被洗產地，你不能因為我們地理位置比較近就說我們會洗產地，那高雄、安平、基隆、臺北港，我都有去看過了，他們就不會洗產地？只有我們金門會洗產地？我跟你講，金門才不會洗產地，因為金門地方很小，每個人幾乎都彼此認識，只要有人做洗產地，今天做，明天馬上就會被抓了，我跟你講，金門就是這種很小的地方，做不了什麼壞事的地方，所以金門反而是一個很好管制的地方，真的，金門就是一個這樣的地方，我認識你三代，你認識我五代這種地方，所以很容易管制，我也不反對，本來就要管制，我剛剛說自由貿易港區，交通部每一年、每個月都要去查核，我們支持啊！我們只是想祈求跟臺灣本島這些港口有一樣的地位而已，我們不是想要特別做什麼，你知道嗎？我們只是請你給我們金門這樣的機會而已。"],["卓院長榮泰：對於離島的特色文化，行政院都願意支持。"],["陳委員玉珍：對啊！那所以……"],["卓院長榮泰：所有它發揮觀光、發揮商業活動的可能性，我們都願意支持。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，那是不是幫我們升格？"],["卓院長榮泰：要循序漸進、按部就班的討論，在國家安全的情況底下，我們要列為優先重點。"],["陳委員玉珍：那幫我們升格為國際港好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個要循序漸進、按部就班的討論。"],["陳委員玉珍：可以吧！提一個計畫好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：繼續討論，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員、謝謝卓院長。報告院會，休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢。現在休息。","休息（10時36分）","繼續開會（10時47分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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非常深遠所以要請院長多多注意 好不好各位社會大眾 我們第一個有信心第二個 有一些不實的訊息不要隨便的傳遞出來我們讓央行能夠專業來穩定"},{"start":68.217,"end":87.631,"text":"請教院長 院長 部長我一直關心的台中大慶烏日段高架計畫台中市府114年1月9日含送修正後報告書另外一個案子 台中海線雙軌高架也是在1月9日含送修正後報告書請問這兩個案子目前還在交通部嗎"},{"start":93.437,"end":116.54,"text":"請部長回答報告委員目前鐵道局在5月2號已經函請台中市政府要再辦修正所以我才說1月9號以後送了現在又送了到布了現在又在市政府了因為我們5月2號已經回函請他再繼續修正所以這樣子一來一往這第幾次了第四次第五次修正"},{"start":117.13,"end":145.469,"text":"教育委員重點是在於說我們希望台中市政府修正的內容希望他要真的落實下去修正那目前我們所看到的內容是他沒有依照我們的建議下去修正還有國發會的意見我跟院長跟部長說啦跟各位報告齁這個大慶烏日高架計畫部長也是烏日區選出來的市議員曾經在烏日區所以我也很想實現所以當地的情況你也非常清楚他迫在眉睫"},{"start":146.38,"end":175.456,"text":"那在原物料人力成本不斷攀升的情況之下越早核定越早發包省越多錢啦那而且在鐵道建設全國的鐵道建設總經費的匯成表當中我們也看到不管是桃園嘉義嘉義縣市台南高雄中央的占比都非常的高只有台中市的部分是地方占比比台中高那我不曉得說為什麼台中的大慶烏日段沒有辦法競速核定"},{"start":176.529,"end":191.042,"text":"這個部分因為周邊城市發展已經非常成熟啦我相信部長你比我比我們都一樣很清楚你從2010年當選市議員三屆的市議員都是當地選出來的所以我告訴你我已經在失敗這一屆我已經第四次總質詢在詢問這個問題失敗就兩年啦所以我想"},{"start":202.025,"end":230.385,"text":"我們看不到任何發展都是原地踏步我們身為烏日選出來的民意代表立委也好 部長也好我相信民眾的期待我們是不希望能夠不希望讓民眾失望啦我相信我們的市民對柏定也有很大的期待但是我感覺你會讓人很失望啦那接下來我們國內三鐵共過的部分三鐵共過站有台北板橋還有高雄"},{"start":231.005,"end":258.809,"text":"那台中新日日站也是三鐵共購但是所有的站都有自強號停靠但是只有新日日站每日只有兩班南下的自強號停靠我要請院長部長台鐵公司研議民眾的需求新增自強號停靠台鐵新日日站還有增加停靠台鐵新日日站的班次因為台中市的人口已經是全國第二大不日區超過八萬人"},{"start":259.77,"end":266.974,"text":"那三鐵公共站竟然只有兩班停靠 這非常誇張啦這真的非常誇張 請院長跟部長承諾好不好報告委員 除了這兩班之外如果在連假 或者是假期期間人潮眾多的時候當然知道嘛 會調整嘛但是你肯定在原有現有的狀況之下增加班次嘛"},{"start":284.72,"end":292.634,"text":"目前我們正在跟台鐵討論這個問題我也認為那個地方需要增加對號車次那我們也跟台鐵正在溝通當中"},{"start":293.53,"end":313.501,"text":"好,我希望你是一個有效率的部長不要說當成...我告訴你,兩年了,我剛剛提到了,這不只兩年你在當議員的時候,我們就一直...你也曾經協助地方在推動這個大慶烏日高價化可是你當了部長了,你就應該更用力的來推動啦我現在很用力了,現在也需要台中市政府配合"},{"start":314.221,"end":340.22,"text":"委員 您家人在台中市政府的影響力應該也不小是不是可以拜託他們幫忙一下提出這些經費的問題民意代表不管是議員 議會 全力在協助部長 我們不要在這裡這樣讀來讀去一定會努力做 交通部不能做我們就來做事情好 這個烏日高鐵這個娛樂城我想大家知道現在最大的一個這個開發區在台中的烏日高鐵"},{"start":341.155,"end":364.195,"text":"那這個高鐵業城總開發金額超過260億那基地面積超過15公頃那我想周邊的交通絕對是會超過負荷上次我在這邊質詢院長跟部長的時候你有提過說要組成專案小組那但是我跟交通部要的資料發現說第一次開會的時候高鐵公司居然沒有被放在出席單位啦那會議結論是"},{"start":366.389,"end":389.743,"text":"請將台灣高鐵公司納入專案小組會議成員所以我在想說這是不是我們高鐵公司出什麼問題是融資鬆了還是出現什麼問題那成立這個專案小組也是部長院長部長當時的承諾那這個專案小組是要來解決相關問題的而不是一個應付的一個型態所以我想要請部長 院長"},{"start":391.744,"end":403.128,"text":"我們在這邊做一個承諾未來的會議結論也可以提供給本席辦公室那是不是也可以讓本院的委員來參與會議一起幫烏日解決問題院長部長可不可以這個已經是去年的會議紀錄了"},{"start":410.083,"end":431.493,"text":"那去年到現在這幾個月下來,應該當中都有按部就班在進行相關的討論我現在問你嘛,當初高鐵第一次會議竟然沒有被納入,不是出席,沒有被放入出席單位嘛這第一次嘛,後面這要開幾次就改回啊,那開了這麼多次會,回到問題本身啦齁"},{"start":432.827,"end":460.762,"text":"到底怎麼樣才可以舒緩這些交通啦不論是在國道1號偵測閘道還是優化台7的視線讓進入高鐵站區跟進入漁獄城的車輛分流又或者是在烏日閘道、王田交流道的優化還是舒緩這些都是對於舒緩高鐵特區未來可能面臨的擁捨問題不然我現在已經可以預期就是說每逢假日車輛從停運道路會回乳到高架上啦這是肯定會發生的啦"},{"start":462.445,"end":470.165,"text":"我在這邊跟院長部長詳細講一下有兩個方向第一個就是設法增加平面道路的容量"},{"start":471.343,"end":491.048,"text":"那第二個就是快速高速快速道路增加閘道那第一點台中市政府也正在努力主要就是要將目前高鐵五路調整成左轉的單行道這個部長你就清楚了高鐵五路左轉要上這個高鐵的這個乘客這個高鐵站"},{"start":492.528,"end":510.616,"text":"這樣子的話可以再來就是高鐵路二段跟三段的分隔島打除可以增加路幅還有增加這個行車空間那第三個就是高鐵五路打通輪子巷打通輪子巷然後銜接這個學鐵路但是這個案子會貫穿"},{"start":512.887,"end":538.126,"text":"穿越這個國道1號與高工局相關這個部分那第二點就是中央應該出力協助的台七四線閘道拓寬國道1號銜接高鐵特區台七四線有這個預留斷面是不是可以直接銜接至高鐵站二樓下課區我要強調建議這個拓寬台七四線閘道提升下閘道往高鐵站的紓解效率"},{"start":538.846,"end":553.264,"text":"有三項建議因為這個要做的事情太多了第一個就是高鐵東路的閘道由一車道變成三車道我們下閘道的那部分部長你今天早上我們一起搭高鐵上來你很清楚回堵都回堵在那裡"},{"start":554.195,"end":570.613,"text":"那第二個就是拓寬長度是110米這個部分可以增加儲車空間下閘道車輛可以提早分流可以提升這個右轉來舒緩這個右轉的效率我再強調一次就是說鐵道局的促參案"},{"start":571.994,"end":592.323,"text":"中央不應該置身事外朝向這兩大方向中央地方都應該要齊心努力共同努力那相關的法規在我剛剛提到的三個方案請問何時可以提供本席這個初步評估的結果報告委員中央沒有置身事外副院長也相當關心我跟副院長也開過會討論過這個問題"},{"start":594.4,"end":617.883,"text":"那鐵道局也召開過三次的會議,您也應該相當的清楚所以從來沒有置身事外這件事那第二,您所提的這幾個建議都是我們當時在會議當中大家都有討論到的那目前也都在研議的過程不過有一些是市政府必須要去做的努力那市政府就去做但是中央該做的包含委員您剛剛有提到這個高速公路要不要設閘道的部分"},{"start":618.283,"end":646.296,"text":"中央也會協助來補助地方政府來做這個可行性的研究那如果做出來是可行的我們當然就會來做副院長我們江啟臣副院長4月24號召集我們台中市的委員還有市政府還有交通部鐵道局也有參加鐵道局當天有承諾說要有答應補助這個研究經費研究案的研究經費那什麼時候可以補助他們要先提出申請我們就會盡快補助"},{"start":648.103,"end":671.133,"text":"都已經提出申請了 怎麼沒有提出申請上次的決議是希望他們提出申請沒有 4月24號我們已經在副院長我們所邀請的這個地方的一個在高鐵站那個案子 當場我們那個鐵道局承諾要盡速的來撥補就是來提供這個經費院長部長 我想我們都要"},{"start":672.697,"end":680.742,"text":"盡力的來協助好不好我們不要裝空外不要這樣子都好像沒有在online的樣子那我想再來再請教就是說"},{"start":682.076,"end":707.296,"text":"台中市4月27號在巷上又發生了重大車禍那一輛連結車因為煞車失靈衝下斜坡衝撞20多輛汽機車造成多人輕重傷沒有人願意看到這些意外的發生短中長期計畫我們也都向市府提出建議來逐步改善我從2013年上任之後提案興建大渡和美大橋"},{"start":708.342,"end":722.314,"text":"那原因就是希望透過和美大橋來分散向上路的大型車的車流如果有和美大橋作為聯絡道未來也可以來嚴禮禁止這些大型重車向西行駛本路段"},{"start":722.881,"end":740.363,"text":"那直接經由國道3號銜接這個河北交流道後透過河北大橋來進入台中港區那我想當地部長你也很熟悉啦那目前我們已經請市府朝深圳線道路的目標來改善那目前有因為"},{"start":741.397,"end":761.885,"text":"向上路從圓圓路一直到中興橋這個部分是三級陡坡下交流道後一直到沙田路都是下坡路段短程的高架也沒有辦法去緩解下坡路段的情況所以目前請市府朝向銜接台61線的可能性研究"},{"start":763.586,"end":774.993,"text":"但是我們在109年但是因為這個是內政部國土署因為是都市計畫道路那內政部國土署也希望院長能夠指示國土署全力來協助本案的經費"},{"start":776.335,"end":796.723,"text":"109年市府評估向上路至中興橋總長4公里的這個高架部分當時出估經費就已經將近40億那按照這些年的這些通膨還有上漲的程度我想超過6年了這些造價可能會超過50億而且還只是銜接到中興橋如果延伸到台61線"},{"start":798.243,"end":822.472,"text":"這些經費可能要兩倍以上所以在這邊要先請院長、部長承諾願意協助整個向上路高架延伸段到台六十一線的這樣子的可能性院長跟部長願不願意承諾這兩件事情就是說向上路這個車禍我覺得地方政府要趕快把它的交通號誌標線等等要做好那減少這種安全上的顧慮"},{"start":823.112,"end":850.763,"text":"那至於說台61線好像跟這裡的距離還是有一點那未來要做什麼樣的評估因為向上路發生車禍不是今年這是從過去到現在已經發生很多次我們貴院何新淳委員也到現場去會堪但是他提的方案也是過去不管是交通局或者是這些裁判機構都有做出相同的一些處理那所以這個部分其實大家都已經"},{"start":852.063,"end":876.348,"text":"所有的應用方式都有已經討論過區段測速任何方式都有討論過所以這個部分我想進入高價的這樣的計畫的引領才是主要的方向所以從現在兩個一個是延伸台六十一線那因為如果說只延伸到所謂的中心橋短短的四公里就預算就將近四十億而且這還是六年前的估算"},{"start":877.068,"end":886.052,"text":"那未來如果你現在去算應該會超過五十億啦那如果延伸到台六十一線那個經費更加龐大所以這邊一定要這個台中市沒辦法獨立完成一定要請院長部長來盡力的協助好不好因為我時間有限那我進入下一個本席因為這個收到大客車整體產業公會的陳情他主要陳情的內容是因為政府已經"},{"start":901.238,"end":927.982,"text":"以規定全面採用六期環保高安全標準車那業者希望政府進一步補助來提供政策誘因來減輕購車負擔避免影響這個市場購車意願那在不影響用車安全的情況下希望交通部能夠聽到大客車業者的心聲那當然第一個主要一個核心就是民眾的安全第一民眾的安全第一我們就來協助大客車整體這些公會他們的"},{"start":1012.268,"end":1012.729,"text":"好 謝謝嚴委員 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":170,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時4分）主席、各位列席官員，大家早。主席，有請行政院卓院長、交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請卓院長及陳部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：顏委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：院長早、部長早。臺幣升值目前已經來到29元，國內所有的製造業、各產業都非常地緊張，我想請教院長，後續會不會繼續升值？"],["卓院長榮泰：對國際情勢跟市場機制，我們當然要有所掌握，我覺得目前我們在觀測過程當中，似乎大家心裡的預期都比較強烈一點。"],["顏委員寬恒：我們臺灣是出口導向的國家，所以匯率的問題影響非常大、非常深遠，因此要請院長多多注意，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我也希望社會大眾，第一個，要有信心；第二個，一些不實的訊息不要隨便傳遞出來，我們讓央行能夠專業來穩定匯率。"],["顏委員寬恒：請教院長、部長，我一直關心臺中大慶烏日段高架計畫，臺中市府於114年1月9日函送修正後報告書；另外一個案子是臺中海線雙軌高架，也是在1月9號函送修正後報告書，請問這兩個案子目前還在交通部嗎？請部長回答。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前鐵道局在5月2號已經函請臺中市政府要再辦修正，因為之前給他們……"],["顏委員寬恒：1月9號有送了，現在又送到部了，1月9號……"],["陳部長世凱：現在又在市政府了，因為我們5月2號已經回函，請它再繼續修正。"],["顏委員寬恒：這樣子一來一往，這是第幾次了？是第四次還是第五次的修正？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，重點是在於我們希望臺中市政府修正的內容是真的落實下去修正，目前所看到的內容是它沒有依照我們的建議下去修正，還有國發會的意見，它也沒有照那個意見修正。"],["顏委員寬恒：我跟院長及部長報告，關於大慶烏日高架計畫，部長也是烏日區選出來的市議員，曾經在烏日區……"],["陳部長世凱：這是我的政見，所以我也很想實現。"],["顏委員寬恒：有在那裡服務三屆，所以當地的情況你也非常清楚，它迫在眉睫，在原物料、人力成本不斷攀升的情況之下，越早核定、越早發包就省越多錢啦！而且我們在全國鐵道建設總經費的彙整表當中也看到，不管是桃園、嘉義縣市、臺南、高雄，中央的占比都非常高，只有臺中市的部分是地方占比比中央高。我不曉得為什麼臺中的大慶烏日段沒有辦法儘速核定，因為周邊城市發展已經非常成熟，我相信部長跟我們都一樣很清楚，你從2010年當選市議員，三屆的市議員都是當地選出來的。"],["陳部長世凱：這是我的政見，所以我相當清楚，我們也跟蔡英文總統提出過。"],["顏委員寬恒：我跟你說，我在這一屆立委已經第四次於總質詢時詢問這個問題，四次就是兩年了，但是我們看不到任何發展，都是原地踏步，我們身為烏日選出來的民意代表，立委也好、部長也好，對於民眾的期待，我們不希望讓民眾失望，我相信我們當地的市民對部長也有很大的期待，但是我感覺你會讓他們很失望。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這一點我一直在努力，也要拜託臺中市政府能幫忙。"],["顏委員寬恒：接下來，國內三鐵共構的站有臺北、板橋及高雄，臺中新烏日站也是三鐵共構，所有的站都有自強號停靠，但是只有新烏日站每日只有兩班南下的自強號停靠。我要請院長、部長、臺鐵公司研議民眾的需求，新增自強號停靠臺鐵新烏日站及增加停靠臺鐵新烏日站的班次，因為臺中市的人口已經是全國第二大，烏日區超過8萬人，三鐵共構的車站竟然只有兩班停靠，這非常誇張啦！這真的非常誇張！請院長跟部長承諾，好不好？可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，除了這兩班之外，如果在連假或者假期期間人潮眾多的時候，一定會臨時加開班次，這沒有問題，可以增加。"],["顏委員寬恒：我當然知道可以調整，但是你可不可在現有的狀況之下增加班次，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：目前我們正在跟臺鐵討論這個提案。"],["顏委員寬恒：你願不願意承諾？"],["陳部長世凱：我們也認為那個地方需要增加對號車次，也跟臺鐵正在溝通當中。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，我希望你是一個有效率的部長，我剛才提到了，這不只兩年了，你在當議員的時候也曾經協助地方在推動大慶烏日高架化，如今你當了部長就應該更用力來推動，而不是在……"],["陳部長世凱：我們已經很用力了，現在也需要臺中市政府配合。委員，您家人在臺中市政府的影響力應該也不小，是不是可以拜託他們幫忙一下？"],["顏委員寬恒：沒有，部長，我跟你講……"],["陳部長世凱：其實這個經費的問題，臺中市政府如果可以接受經費……"],["顏委員寬恒：民意代表，不管是議員、議會都全力在協助，部長，我們不要在這裡這樣推來推去、耍嘴皮，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我們一定會努力做，交通部能做的一定會努力做。"],["顏委員寬恒：我們就來做事情啦！再來是烏日高鐵娛樂城，我想大家都知道，現在最大的開發區在臺中的烏日高鐵，高鐵娛樂城總開發金額超過260億，基地面積超過15公頃，我想周邊的交通絕對會超過負荷，上次我在這邊質詢院長跟部長的時候，你有提過要組成專案小組，但是我跟交通部要了資料，發現第一次開會的時候，高鐵公司居然沒有被放在出席單位，會議結論是請將台灣高鐵公司納入專案小組會議成員，所以我在想這是不是交通部出了什麼問題，是螺絲鬆了還是出了什麼問題？成立這個專案小組也是院長、部長當時的承諾，這個專案小組是要來解決相關問題的，而不是應付的型態。所以想要請部長、院長在這邊做一個承諾，未來的會議結論可以提供給本席辦公室，是不是也可以讓本院的委員來參與會議，一起幫烏日解決問題？院長、部長可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：我看這個已經是去年的會議紀錄了，去年到現在這幾個月下來，應該當中都有按部就班在進行相關的討論，會議紀錄可以提供給委員做參考。"],["顏委員寬恒：對啊，我現在就問嘛，當初高鐵在第一次會議竟然沒有被納入，沒有被放入出席單位，這是第一次，後面又開了好幾次會，開了這麼多次會……回到問題本身啦，到底怎麼樣才可以紓緩交通？不論是在國道1號增設匝道還是優化台74線，讓進入高鐵站區跟進入娛樂城的車輛分流，又或者是在烏日匝道、王田交流道的優化，這些都是紓緩高鐵特區未來可能面臨的壅塞問題，不然我現在已經可以預期，每逢假日車輛會從平面道路回堵到高架上，這是肯定會發生的。我在這邊跟院長、部長詳細講一下，有兩個方向，第一個就是設法增加平面道路的容量。第二個就是高速、快速道路增加匝道。第一點的部分臺中市政府也正在努力，主要就是要將目前高鐵五路調整成左轉的單行道，這個部長就清楚了，高鐵五路左轉要上高鐵站。再來就是把高鐵路二段跟三段的分隔島打除，可以增加路幅還有行車空間。第三個就是高鐵五路打通論子巷，然後銜接學田路，但是這個案子會穿越國道1號，這個部分與高公局相關。","第二點，中央應該出力協助的是台74線匝道拓寬，國道1號銜接高鐵特區，台74線有預留斷面，是不是可以直接銜接至高鐵站2樓下客區？我要強調並建議拓寬台74線匝道，提升下匝道往高鐵站的效率，這有三項建議，因為要做的事情太多了。第一個，往高鐵東路的匝道由1車道變為3車道，就是我們下匝道的那部分。部長，今天早上我們一起搭高鐵上來，你很清楚，回堵都回堵在那裡。第二個，拓寬長度是110米，這個部分可以增加儲車空間，下匝道的車輛可以提早分流，可以提升右轉的效率。我再強調一次，鐵道局的促參案，中央不應該置身事外，要朝向這兩大方向，中央、地方都應該要齊心努力、共同努力，我剛剛提到的三個方案，請問何時可以提供本席初步評估的結果？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，中央沒有置身事外，副院長也相當關心，我跟副院長也開過會討論過這個問題，鐵道局也召開過三次會議，你應該也相當地清楚，所以這件事我們從來沒有置身事外。第二，您所提的這幾個建議都是我們當時在會議當中都有討論到的，目前也都在研議的過程中，不過有一些是市政府必須要去做的努力，市政府就去做，但是中央該做的，包含委員剛剛有提到的高速公路要不要設匝道的部分，中央也會協助補助地方政府來做可行性的研究，如果做出來是可行的，我們當然就會來做。"],["顏委員寬恒：江啟臣副院長4月24號召集臺中市的委員、市政府還有交通部討論，鐵道局也有參加。鐵道局當天有承諾要補助研究案的研究經費，什麼時候可以補助？什麼時間會……"],["陳部長世凱：他們要先提出申請，我們就會儘快補助。"],["顏委員寬恒：都已經提出申請了，怎麼沒有提出申請？"],["陳部長世凱：上次的決議是希望他們提出申請。"],["顏委員寬恒：沒有，4月24號我們在副院長所邀集地方高鐵站的案子，當場鐵道局已經承諾要儘速的來撥補、來提供經費。院長、部長，我們都要盡力的來協助，好不好？我們不要狀況外，不要都好像沒有on line的樣子啦！","再請教，臺中市4月27號在向上路又發生了重大車禍，一輛聯結車因為煞車失靈衝下斜坡，衝撞二十多輛汽、機車，造成多人輕重傷。我想沒有人願意看到這些意外的發生，短、中、長期計畫，我們也都向市府提出建議來逐步改善，我從2013年上任之後提案興建大肚和美大橋，就是希望透過和美大橋來分散向上路大型車的車流，如果有和美大橋作為聯絡道，未來也可以研擬禁止這些大型重車向西行駛本路段，直接經由國道三號銜接和美交流道後，透過和美大橋來進入臺中港區。部長，我想當地你很熟悉啦！我們已經請市府朝生活圈道路的目標來改善，目前因為向上路從遊園路一直到中興橋這個部分是三級陡坡，下交流道後一直到沙田路都是下坡路段，短程的高架也沒有辦法緩解下坡路段的情況，所以目前請市府朝向銜接台61線的可能性研究。因為都市計畫道路是內政部國土署管理的，也希望院長能夠指示國土署全力來協助本案的經費，109年市府評估向上路至中興橋總長4公里的高架部分，當時初估經費就已經將近四十億，按照這些年的通膨還有上漲的程度，超過六年了，我想這些造價可能會超過五十億，而且還只是銜接到中興橋，如果延伸到台61線，這些經費可能要兩倍以上。所以要先請院長、部長承諾，願意協助整個向上路高架延伸段到台61線這樣子的可能性。院長跟部長能不能承諾？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是兩件事情，向上路這個車禍，我覺得地方政府要趕快把它的交通號誌、標線等等要做好，減少這種安全上的顧慮。至於台61線跟這裡的距離還是有一點……未來要做怎麼樣的評估……"],["顏委員寬恒：院長，我跟你報告，因為向上路發生車禍不只是今年，從過去到現在已經發生很多次，我們何欣純委員也到現場去會勘，但是他提的方案，過去不管是交通局或者是這些裁罰機構都有做出一些相同的處理，所以這個部分其實大家就所有的因應方式都已經討論過，包含區段測速等任何方式都有討論過。但我想這個部分，進入高架計畫的研擬才是主要的方向啦，所以現在有兩個作法，一個是延伸台61線，因為如果只延伸到所謂的中興橋，短短的4公里預算就將近四十億，而且這還是6年前的估算，如果以現在計算未來，應該會超過五十億啦！如果延伸到台61線那個經費更加龐大，所以臺中市沒辦法獨立完成，一定要請院長、部長盡力的協助，好不好？因為我時間有限，我進入下一個議題。","本席收到大客車整體產業公會的陳情，主要陳情內容是因應政府已規定全面採用六期環保高安全標準車，業者希望政府進一步補助，提供政策誘因、減輕購車負擔，避免影響市場購車意願，在不影響用車安全的情況下，希望交通部能夠聽到大客車業者的心聲。當然，主要的核心就是民眾安全第一啦！民眾安全第一，我們就來協助大客車整體公會他們的訴求。我要請院長跟部長針對大客車產業公會的陳情，他們主要有兩點訴求，第一個就是將六期環保車的新車使用年限提高5年，這是第一項，不然就跟其他舊車的年限一樣，沒有誘因啦！第二點，關於修法，因為年滿15年以上老車換新車的貨物稅可以抵免，可以直接免徵，但是因為通膨，現在一部車都要一千多萬以上，我們現在法律規定獎勵貨物稅可以免徵40萬，可是現在新車的貨物稅因為通膨的關係，新車的價位更高，甚至現在已經遠遠超過兩倍以上。","根據貨物稅條例第十二條之六的規定，要符合95年以前出廠的車輛才可以符合貨物稅免徵，然而符合的車輛幾乎已經少之又少，這個要進入修法，我要請院長、部長同意協助並召開相關會議，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：貨物稅的部分，我們會另案辦理。對於延長新車使用期間，我想基於行車安全的大前提，需要再請交通部來研議。"],["顏委員寬恒：當然，行車安全是最重要的。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：請院長跟部長協助。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝顏委員，謝謝卓院長。剛才顏委員提到高鐵臺中站周邊交通改善的問題，的確刻不容緩，謝謝部長當時同意成立中央及地方的檢討小組，我們希望改善速度能夠再加快一點，謝謝。","下一位請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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雙項是很好雙項之後你又沒有辦法去很坦然的示意這是給一般民眾的一個感覺那當然這幾天 前幾天我們這個"},{"start":133.991,"end":149.99,"text":"台北這個美金的匯率史詩級的飆升對台域來說史詩級的飆升當然對於個人的一個部分的理財甚至觀光有部分的民眾他是正面看待但就國家行政院"},{"start":150.771,"end":175.427,"text":"立法院對國家以出口為導向出口是我們競爭力降低的一個部分我們必須要審慎去面對這樣的一個問題因為不然這個史詩級的飆升真的在控制不好第二個詩會變成詩痕遍野出口的一個產業IT的產業甚至我們受險大部分於美金避險的這個邏輯會變成另外一種史詩級"},{"start":180.852,"end":182.821,"text":"我覺得行政院做好沒有 做好準備沒有啊"},{"start":184.79,"end":211.926,"text":"就密切注意那更往前走我們是認為在整個關稅談判的過程當中雖然都沒有觸及到所謂匯率的問題但是我們一直在關心整個世界匯率的變化所以我也希望這個變化能夠迅速的穩定下來那穩定下來最重要的當然是央行長期就穩定貨幣的政策以及他手上所了解的狀況但很重要的是我希望產業界跟國人我們現在能夠大家"},{"start":212.926,"end":234.959,"text":"還是要深具信心台灣的基本體質 財政狀況是好的院長 因為這個產業界我特別最近接到很多電話我也跟一些以出口為導向的一個產業聯絡其實現在是真的非常非常的憂心而且實際發生的已經哀鴻遍野最主要問題這次的升值之前"},{"start":235.879,"end":253.682,"text":"就最近的兩年兩個月112年2月2號也測試到29有測試到這兩年前的市有嘛因為匯率升升降降其實這個就是市場的一個機制為主啊所以有時候降也都升本來大家不意外的可是"},{"start":254.383,"end":277.214,"text":"你花了兩年的時間兩年的慢慢走讓產業有調整每次的訂單他看到匯率的走勢相對的穩定他可以做這個生意獲得相對的一個這個出口的一個利潤花了兩年時間到三十二、三十三左右請問說真的黑色五月就五月就這幾天"},{"start":278.975,"end":301.913,"text":"就這幾天 尤其五月三號跟五月五號連兩天啊快一塊嘛 九毛這兩天就快兩美元的這個部分 最主要現在擔心的不是調這個什麼時候會降到多少最主要是這麼短的時間讓人家沒有辦法應變然後呢 昨天這個總裁終於"},{"start":304.273,"end":316.42,"text":"講出一些讓我們他的良心話他覺得是事實嘛因為之前他一直記者會一直閉談啊原來他講的是什麼意思你聽得懂嗎呼籲啊 異常"},{"start":317.458,"end":333.446,"text":"的狀況到此為止你跟誰講跟外資那些禿鷹嗎他就表示發現有異常但是這三天這過去兩三天他居然沒有去救市不是干預不是干預你要去救"},{"start":334.346,"end":362.241,"text":"股市我們有在救會市遇到這麼大的一個問題的時候居然他昨天說他有發現有異常異常到此為止簡單來講他講異常就是如果不管外資喔外資喔搞不好有真外資假外資喔搞不好有國人繞一圈產業繞一圈進來的喔外資熱錢進來的居然有掠奪式有突映式的資金的時候在這幾天我們的總裁已經發現了如果已經發現了這樣的救市"},{"start":364.741,"end":366.302,"text":"所以因為我們長期以來沒有採取干預政策"},{"start":383.868,"end":404.443,"text":"台灣一直沒有被列為操縱匯率的國家我們是一般的觀察名單而已就因為這樣的延續這樣的慣例下來所以央行自然在比較合於規定的情況底下對匯市做它穩定的措施但是前兩天經過之後難免會發現有些外資進出的時間跟量"},{"start":405.996,"end":421.663,"text":"次數都有一些值得觀察的時候所以今天早上我也講了台灣不是操縱匯率的國家但是我們也絕不允許呼應來破壞影響操縱台灣的匯市如果有任何不法的狀況一旦發生絕對要立刻有效的處理"},{"start":422.628,"end":440.634,"text":"我是覺得這個東西要應該更積極的一個作為啦因為我們出口產業甚至有很多這個以美元做避險的一個產業真的受影響是非常大如果在全球的一個匯率做異常管理這個部分史詩級的就是單日"},{"start":441.374,"end":463.572,"text":"跳升或者降已經到了過去大概三四十年最高的一個比率如果就全球來檢驗一定是這個有異常嘛那這個異常會不會大家變成是這個相關的一些名單這個部分我覺得央行要注意你們也要注意那第三個問題是產業界的你知道產業界"},{"start":465.669,"end":490.788,"text":"在關稅問題美國關稅的問題正在處理副院長帶隊去我們期待蠻深的不然我跟你講全台灣這個出口產業真的是做不下去這個部分我覺得不管哪個黨派要有共識你這個東西一定要為台灣爭取最大的一個利益讓我們的產業能夠活下去這個是我個人絕對這樣去認為可是現在這個出口的一個產業"},{"start":491.789,"end":509.651,"text":"坦白講第一把刀還沒卸下來就看談判的一個結果假設90天希望有好的結果讓我們出口產業能夠在世界的一個出口的競賽能夠生存那結果現在匯市匯率這幾天坦白講很多在談"},{"start":510.692,"end":528.464,"text":"正好以美金 現在因為世界貿易都息 美金做談好的訂單有時候幾個月要交貨 我的天啊他現在真的是遇到非常麻煩的問題等於對他們來講第一把刀還沒有拔出來 第二把刀就插進去那我現在要請教你 我不知道你有沒有預測明天正好是5月7號"},{"start":529.725,"end":549.814,"text":"當然美國總統川普講的話現在唯一不變的就是一直在變所以他講5月7號會宣布其實我也不太確定可是5月7號就美國時間搞不好就非常快了他說5月7號對於我們台灣出口IT產業的第三把刀如果宣布就是對於我們的晶片"},{"start":551.054,"end":563.388,"text":"對於晶片 對於我們IT產業這非常重要要開始宣布一個特殊的關稅第一個 你有沒有掌握這樣的一個情報第二個咧 如果有不要講日期 你覺得大概幅度是多少"},{"start":564.246,"end":586.518,"text":"好 鄭雷軍副院長跟臺灣辦公室楊振尼政委非常辛苦的完整跟美國正式面對面的瘦傷他們帶回來的消息是足以讓我們覺得說往下一步走是一個好的開始至於明天5月7號我們再度的向外界說明這是一個美國廣對世界所有其他國家希望大家提出一個對232條款的公眾說明書他們再來做討論 而不是一個"},{"start":591.7,"end":618.055,"text":"具體的談判的時間點那我方也備妥了這個意見書會依照我們備妥的方案當中針對ICT產業半導體這個產業如何保障我國產業的安定穩定跟繼續的高科技領導我們會往這個方向去爭取國家最大的利益所以你說團隊有預測嗎因為不要每次我們都人家宣布了你再講說當時我們預測就你有沒有預測啦 講真的有沒有預測還是不方便講沒關係但有沒有預測"},{"start":618.953,"end":645.772,"text":"我們有評估跟各種設算有評估就是等他宣布之後你才可以宣布我覺得他宣布沒有那麼快我們還要進行詳細的評估我覺得你們要更慎重去注意我們尤其在出口產業IT這部分如果第三把刀就在五月這個項群再插進來的時候你要遇到非常非常多的一個問題必須解決最後一個請交通部長"},{"start":647.858,"end":650.139,"text":"我請教一下邊走邊問就請問一下這一次因為交通部未來有很多包括美國車 每年進口怎麼能夠只有七十幾台啊他們肯定變成非關稅的貿易障礙你們也都知道啦那這個的部分你們有沒有把這個題庫相關的做法去交給談判代"},{"start":671.22,"end":692.675,"text":"你們自己在行政院開過會這些談判代表從副院長他們應該這個提供相關的處理機制有沒有提供報告委員我們跟行政院有開過數次的會議包含我在內包含次長在內還有相關的單位跟行政院開過數次的會議所以所有的幕僚作業該提供的資訊跟資料我們都有提供"},{"start":693.561,"end":710.755,"text":"好的 有提供那這次交通部有派誰參加這個關稅談判的一個代表部長 次長 部長在嗎 肯定沒有 有沒有有沒有但是你們意見都已經在內部討論了嘛 對不對好啦 我今天要跟主委長建議拜託啦 央行不要再這樣講"},{"start":711.903,"end":740.461,"text":"不要再講了我們央行沒有參與沒有去代表參與去美國代表貿易談判當然沒有啊部長也在這邊交通部沒有一個人去啊難道就代表我們交通部沒有任何的一個相關的意見帶去當然不是他們在國內開了N次會央行一樣對於可能美債外匯存體相關的一個匯率要準備的方案嘛你自己去不去談跟你的意見有沒有去"},{"start":741.65,"end":762.816,"text":"我覺得不要再講我個人沒有站在美國的現場那不代表你交通部或者央行你們的意見不要再用這個作為解釋啦這是我跟這個部長跟院長的建議我現在他的意思真的意思是說這次談判沒有涉及匯率的問題他的原意應該是在這裡啦"},{"start":763.667,"end":783.743,"text":"對我知道可是你不要跟我講說代表代表團這麼專業代表行政院代表我們國家過去然後如果美國談到任何的美債外匯存體或者匯率的問題我們是講抱歉我沒有這個意見不可能啊如果你這樣講我就覺得哇天啊那什麼叫完全的準備了那我接下來談一些港務的問題來首先"},{"start":789.48,"end":815.922,"text":"我們也要謝謝院長你上任不到一個月就有宣誓了就跟毒品宣戰而且花總共有四年時間投入一百五十億來跟毒品宣戰我覺得這是很重要的而且有六大守護神我現在已經寫在上面就是檢警調檢警調等於相關的一個單位那這個的部分"},{"start":816.602,"end":845.74,"text":"我覺得像檢警調很多第一個要靠現報那當然剩下的部分就是已經毒品相關已經分散出去了他去調查中間在某一個KTV或者某一個party或者有一個場域然後去抓到其實這都是最尾端的那會忙死人啊所以我們覺得在台灣毒品的一個源頭管理是非常非常重要的以台灣來說我們的源頭就在港口"},{"start":846.772,"end":868.185,"text":"空港海港這港口這個管制是非常非常重要我們看到過去幾年在空港的嚴謹度對於人對於人所帶的物品對於相關的一些貨他們查緝的不敢說都查得到了但是我感覺比較嚴謹那現在這個你感覺海港狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":869.417,"end":883.422,"text":"所以我們六大守護這個反炸的反毒的除了檢警掉線就是有海巡跟關路就是委員所說的空港跟海港那這個部長港務公司有沒有什麼想法"},{"start":884.591,"end":901.78,"text":"怎麼樣去整合這六個單位就你所知道在海港的部分整合如何因為整合就是有一定的調度配合一條邊發生什麼事情你的港務公司或者那邊是誰來去主導平常的日常的"},{"start":903.137,"end":930.895,"text":"去做這種check in的動作就你所知整合的如何港務公司的角色是什麼港務公司在長期以來都有配合我們的檢警調在做調查的部分當然會配合那另外針對港務跟海巡的配合其實也是長期在配合但是前一陣子確實有發生過有船員攜帶毒品的這個問題那我也請港務公司現在針對這樣子的問題怎麼樣跟我們的執法單位大家來配合能夠杜絕這樣子的可能性在發生好"},{"start":934.124,"end":953.313,"text":"我想 虎牙市長列了兩次的一個案情就在基隆港 在去年的四月十七有可能是偵破日 搞不好在之前就已經發生這個事情這是基隆港員工 運3.2億價值的大麻當然有現報 被抓到了 起訴了"},{"start":954.707,"end":971.647,"text":"但其中沒有擔心黑樹那第二個是今年的3月24號有抓到偵破那長榮海運現任跟離職的船員走私大麻那這兩個案子我們的院長您都清楚有掌握嗎"},{"start":973.443,"end":990.454,"text":"當然從新聞上我看到我是覺得我們整個過程第一個是這個現報很重要再來科技的執法很重要另外就是我們現在很多的企圖犬也發揮了很大的效果但是我是覺得我們自己的同仁或是海運相關的業者讓我們覺得很痛心"},{"start":991.534,"end":1008.134,"text":"他應該是把關的第一線竟然成為破口之所在所以我是說這個部分如果是公務同仁我們絕一定要求司法原辦公務機關行政上也給予歧視處分那如果是海運的這些同仁海運的這些職員也應該海運公司內部自我管理要加強"},{"start":1008.971,"end":1027.119,"text":"好 院長因為這是一個真的是跨部會 跨單位而且檢警調都頗有本位主義的那可是你在港區發生的到底誰來去劃這整件事情讓他去做圓滿我坦白講 行政院你要"},{"start":1028.1,"end":1056.576,"text":"不是說你啦你一定要派人去整合這樣的一個問題因為我們發覺你覺得現在這個部長你說一下目前發生這個事情之後你各單位六大守護神跟港務公司整合得怎麼樣港務公司當然有找相關的單位來開會那另外港務公司自己自主啦針對員工的管制跟針對船員的管制的部分跟檢查的部分目前也有加強另外跟委員報告我們海巡經常跟國際合作"},{"start":1057.622,"end":1071.637,"text":"一直跟美方合作 破壞相當多在海上當然是有現報 但是經過國際合作就破壞在海上的毒品那海巡同仁都要很艱難的去危險的登艦去做一些必要的收檢工作這個是海巡同仁經常在付出的"},{"start":1072.262,"end":1100.82,"text":"其實我最擔心是例行性的每一天的你如何去掌控一些基本的情況從中發生一些問題但我們看到港務公司為主從108年到112年他經常也開相關單位的會議相關的專家學者也去做處理那108年說什麼呢要確實規定檢察人員以及個人的物品以及車輛跟車上的物品"},{"start":1101.854,"end":1116.413,"text":"很合理嘛那改善情況就是以改善並依規定辦理這代表什麼呢108年的時候遇到有這種例外的情況對人員啊又發生了一些事情不見得是毒品他覺得應該要加強改善"},{"start":1117.014,"end":1144.57,"text":"以改善114年類似的一個情況就是人員未經許可進入港區應該要怎麼樣什麼機制然後就表示又有一些漏洞再檢討然後以改善並依規定辦理表示之前有一些落高那最近的114年呢加強落實車輛的一個管理因為我覺得基本功很重要因為我們除了自己本身台灣我們自己在運作"},{"start":1145.43,"end":1161.12,"text":"我們也是世界的一員我相信這個部長你知道什麼是ISPS已經二十幾年2002年全世界的海港為了當時是反恐啊發這個炸彈什麼東西再進來所以訂定了一個非常嚴肅的針對於"},{"start":1167.043,"end":1193.577,"text":"港口甚至船舶還有相關的一個設施訂了一個非常明確的SOP然後是一套完整的港口保全這個一個制度第一個你知不知道這整套的系統跟制度然後再來港澳公司跟相關的志願單位有沒有做到報告員這個部分請你明示這個部分我沒有掌握"},{"start":1194.739,"end":1199.41,"text":"你沒掌握 那我建議你回去因為已經很久了"},{"start":1200.576,"end":1227.512,"text":"整個港口該怎麼管制我們自己按照經驗沒有用吧 全世界的一個經驗甚至有一些港口發生重大違安不是我們的然後人家經驗跟我們分享該怎麼管制第一關第二關這個部分我們希望在今天總執行之後至少我想包括院長部長能夠多關心我們現在以三港為主的這個的部分來做一個進一步的"},{"start":1228.112,"end":1249.887,"text":"主理好嗎剛剛委員報告我們跟其他國家的共同打擊犯罪其中有一些已經在合作另外有一些我們自己在裝備比方說雷達偵測系統上不急的部分我都跟海巡署講說我們已經要採用最新的設備跟世界同步能夠做情報的分享我想這個部分我們會極力的趕上來好 那接下來我們再看因為我想說最基本功啦"},{"start":1250.373,"end":1268.235,"text":"就每天這麼多的你們不斷的開會說對人員跟人員帶的物品對於車輛車輛帶的物品你們已經三番兩次說要加強加強就代表其實不用我說啦大家也知道這是Daily你們必須要去做的可是我們看到以長風海運大麻"},{"start":1269.036,"end":1285.813,"text":"因為這個案子有三個人進出港口有臨時的有現任的你看到第一位蔡元姓蔡的蔡先生他的出入港口的記錄是有正式回文的這個警隊說港警有記錄到"},{"start":1286.892,"end":1310.034,"text":"然後港務公司有登錄到然後長榮公司CCTV沒看到這個人第二個賴元是港警警察的警政單位有進入然後港務公司他沒有勾結到第三個長榮的CCTV監視系統沒看到最後一位是三個都沒有"},{"start":1311.274,"end":1335.441,"text":"大家沒人看到就在港區裡面跑來跑去所以我剛剛講說其實這個不管是國際的一個怎麼樣一個code一個ISPS怎麼樣去做到可是我們先倒過來那個高深的學問你們在研究了好不好這個是大家都看得懂的我們有幾個人站在第一線就像我們院長所說的六大這個守護神那守護神有時候"},{"start":1336.121,"end":1345.102,"text":"是不是在睡覺還是發呆失靈的一個情況到底要怎麼解決啊到底要怎麼解決啊這個我想部長你來回答一下"},{"start":1346.685,"end":1375.925,"text":"為什麼有這種交錯你們面對這個問題已經幾個月了你剛剛說有討論討論發覺是什麼問題如何改善這樣子的表格看得很清楚有一些單位確實他在這個通行證跟門哨的管制沒有百分之百落實這個是我們必須要檢討也必須要趕快改善的那現在港務公司給我這邊的回報是他們已經有開過會討論怎麼樣去落實包含您所提到的港警的部分跟港務公司的部分那另外跟航運公司的協調他們也有做過"},{"start":1377.188,"end":1378.373,"text":"詳細的內容我會後再跟委員報告"},{"start":1381.175,"end":1408.891,"text":"做了希望有效果這是你們後面我們再三追問只有兩個單位說他有精進其他單位好像跟他覺得沒有什麼關係警隊組提了一個精進方案然後港務公司也提一個這個精進的方案就過去只要傳言去申請這個當次的那現在來要傳通這個還代表事前的登錄要做一個double check做這個double check的一個動作更嚴謹"},{"start":1410.532,"end":1435.445,"text":"那這個部長覺得有沒有信心啊經過這個double check齁已經訂過來14 可能一兩個月了沒有啦 部長你講一下好了因為太小的議題我就不問院長了這個部分我們會有信心啦齁那院長的指示是要有決心一定要把它做好做到做好做到齁那已經精進方案已經上路了齁 大概一兩個月了我們來看看什麼精進好不好你們看一下"},{"start":1438.007,"end":1462.794,"text":"這是台北港昨天下午4點46分我們應該期待說這個鋼哨是不是有人守在那裡首先鋼哨是空的沒有人站在外面然後有人逼一聲燈亮然後有轎車沒有人看完全沒有任何反應這樣可以通行現在的情況就是這樣"},{"start":1464.294,"end":1477.44,"text":"到底誰管制 第一個人員管制 沒有剛剛院長說的我們有科技科技管制不是 他逼到了 亮或者不亮 合不合格照樣他自己去通行我跟你講"},{"start":1478.666,"end":1497.416,"text":"所以這個部分真的是要院長來做一個協調處理因為這個可能又是警政單位了為什麼昨天我們的秘書看到這個狀況覺得很奇怪看不懂有人逼一聲有人沒有進進出出這個非常通暢結果我們進去看在裡面的警員"},{"start":1500.298,"end":1526.407,"text":"為什麼有逼到跟沒有逼到有沒有量檢驗到他都可以出去啊然後再來對這些我這個叫車的部分啊我覺得像很多的貨櫃貨運這個我們期待這個公司上貨的時候自主管理我們希望相信他因為這個國家運貨的效率你知道嗎甚至讓這個貨櫃車大車堵在那個門口每一個要爬上去檢查我覺得這個不合理"},{"start":1527.607,"end":1542.792,"text":"覺得但是轎車這個部分誰自主管理啊誰自主管理到底發生了什麼事結果昨天的員警特別說不要問我不要問我這個廠商就是這個設施這個設施有時候會出問題你要去問這個設施的廠商"},{"start":1547.844,"end":1576.714,"text":"因為我們覺得很尷尬今天是已經經濟方案已經上路了在經濟方案沒有上路對於人車尤其這個人的沒有自主管理過的不是那種大貨車那到底發生什麼事了照這樣逼一下裡面多載一個人也沒事喔講真的 你看這種多載一個人兩個人完全一點事情都沒有我倒是覺得很奇怪這個東西我倒是不會說去怪這個交通部可是如果那個系統啊"},{"start":1578.083,"end":1601.143,"text":"那個系統啊 有量沒量都可以然後遠景執法也很無奈那他變成因為被騙很多次了所以他乾脆狼來了 我也不出去了有量沒量都不行這個部分是很嚴重的這個院長你看到這個情況好像不太符合我們現在的剛剛的全面的要求你說說看要怎麼樣去精進改善"},{"start":1602.16,"end":1626.156,"text":"謝謝委員 我覺得第一個非常遺憾但更感謝委員提供這樣的資訊5月5號16點46分這個鋼哨的人員到底是誰我們在行政上我又要求台北港跟交通部我們要做強力的要求到底他的人員有沒有盡到責任另外這些進出車輛有沒有經過安全檢查的程序過程如何一定要詳實報告如果有行政上的疏忽我們一定要做行政上的追究謝謝委員"},{"start":1628.504,"end":1645.337,"text":"希望能夠逐步精進因為事實上很多人常常會經過要進去港口是什麼樣的一個情況我一直在說對於營業大量的有自主管理的車輛載貨不要再把人家打開了怎麼樣的方式但是對於這樣的一個不明的轎車或者沒有"},{"start":1646.198,"end":1661.03,"text":"沒有逼生的這個部分我覺得要有一些作為那接下來我們再看一樣是港務公司的港務公司在幾年前為了科技創新 鼓勵科技創新用科技的方法來去提供"},{"start":1662.196,"end":1690.729,"text":"港務公司港口需求來提供科技的解決方案那也希望在這個實驗之後呢能夠落地商轉就是簡單講實驗完之後現在就在港口港務公司那邊港域去做實施甚至能夠從實驗港拓展到所有的商港這是我們港務公司目前在網站上開宗明義所以科技去做管理這個的部分那請問一下部長你知道嗎"},{"start":1692.365,"end":1705.755,"text":"這個部分我大概知道我們以政府補助 政府沒有補助算了以政府補助有三項創新的工作以港口做實驗場域因為時間有限那我們希望你們自己去查清楚了解一下"},{"start":1706.966,"end":1729.467,"text":"這三個政府非常補助無人載具智慧巡檢這個補助了五千多萬自駕巴士區塊鏈物流服務這在台北港也是交通部的補助三千六百萬第三個應該是高雄港的吧無人機後勤的一個補給這數位部來補助的一千三那就請問一下算了如果你剛剛都沒聽過的話這幾個到底"},{"start":1732.37,"end":1755.197,"text":"最後的結果其實坦白講到112年111年112年結案了啦本身當時的計畫已經結案了啦那到底哪一個落地港公司要講一下嗎到底哪一個是現在進行式哇 實驗成功了我推展科技了因為當時是港公司的需求不是人家硬塞進來的一個案子我跟你講花錢築夢夢醒一場空這三個補助的計畫"},{"start":1762.486,"end":1788.928,"text":"目前為止沒有一個可以正常落地變成科技資源港口公司的所以這到底是不是港務公司需求因為當時你不是部長我只是說你現在要去了解那到底哪些可以落地的甚至還要發展到全台灣港口去做甚至還誇言可以出國輸出去做比賽的你看以無人載具的一個巡檢"},{"start":1791.757,"end":1809.62,"text":"這個最後的結案啊人家專家學者的第二十項你看第一個無人載具具有天候限制人家委員問他說那下雨天會不會影響到這無人機的這個視覺結果回答是開玩笑說不是不會你知道為什麼不會因為我們雨天不出情"},{"start":1810.609,"end":1833.923,"text":"雨天不出啟 那金融港大概平均200到230天的雨天所以我們的科技創新在實驗階段大概有六成的時間沒有出啟所以會不會因為雨天影響 所以不會那諸如此類奇奇怪怪的一個情況沒有一個落地的 包括巴士區塊鏈這個部分"},{"start":1835.743,"end":1835.923,"text":"好謝謝盧委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":108,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（9時32分）謝謝主席，有請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：魯委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：院長，雖然是交通組質詢，但是因為這是國家重要的議題，昨天在下午的時間，我相信院長也有看到我們中央銀行楊總裁的記者會，真的是……很多媒體跟學者的感覺，你知道是什麼？是不聽不害怕、越聽越害怕，史詩級結巴，結結巴巴答不出來，他是有什麼困難、難言之隱？你覺得昨天你看這場記者會的表現如何？有沒有幫這個問題釋疑，還是讓大家有更多的疑問？你說說看。"],["卓院長榮泰：楊總裁在對整個國家財政、貨幣的匯率上面是相當專業的，他所提出的書面的說明也非常清楚，至於現場的反應可能牽涉到提問的過程當中，他是不是第一時間沒有完全掌握到，但是我是認為以他的內容來看，足夠是用專業來做評估的。"],["魯委員明哲：我是覺得一般民眾看到，因為政府要跟民眾溝通、跟業界溝通、跟輿論溝通，這種溝通的模式是不行的，書面報告是單向的，你必須雙向，這是很好，但雙向之後，你又沒有辦法很坦然地釋疑，這是給一般民眾的感覺。當然，這幾天、前幾天美金的匯率史詩級的飆升，對臺幣來說是史詩級的飆升，對於個人理財的部分，甚至觀光，有部分民眾是正面看待，但就國家、行政院、立法院，我們的國家是以出口為導向，出口關係到我們競爭力的部分，我們必須審慎去面對這樣的問題，不然這個史詩級的飆升如果再控制不好，第二個「屍」會變成屍橫遍野，出口的產業、IT的產業，甚至我們的壽險大部分以美金避險的邏輯，會變成另外一種「史屍級」。針對這個部分，行政院做好準備沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們從上禮拜就密切注意，我們是認為在整個關稅談判的過程當中，雖然都沒有觸及到所謂匯率的問題，但是我們一直在關心整個世界匯率的變化，我也希望這個變化能夠迅速地穩定下來，要穩定下來最重要的當然是央行長期穩定貨幣的政策以及它手上所了解的狀況，但很重要的是，我希望產業界跟國人還是要深具信心，臺灣的基本體質和財政狀況其實是好的。"],["魯委員明哲：院長，因為我最近接到很多產業界的電話，我也跟一些與出口為導向的產業聯絡，現在他們真的非常非常憂心，而且實際發生的已經哀鴻遍野，最主要的問題就是這次的升值，在兩年兩個月之前，也就是112年2月2號也測試到29，這是兩年前的事，當時也有嘛！匯率升升降降其實就是以市場的機制為主，所以這樣子升，本來大家是不意外的，可是那是花了兩年的時間，用兩年的時間慢慢走，讓產業可以調整，對於每次的訂單，它看到匯率的走勢相對穩定，它可以做這個生意，獲得相對的出口利潤，花了兩年的時間到32、33左右，結果黑色5月卻來了，就5月這幾天，尤其5月3號跟5月5號，連兩天升值將近1塊9毛，這兩天就快要2塊臺幣了。現在我們最擔心的不是什麼時候會升到多少，最主要是這麼短的時間，讓人家沒有辦法應變。","然後昨天總裁終於講出一些他的良心話，因為他覺得這是事實嘛！之前他在記者會上一直避談，他講這什麼意思你聽得懂嗎？他呼籲異常的狀況到此為止，這是在跟誰講？跟外資那些禿鷹嗎？他就表示發現有異常，但是過去這兩、三天，他居然沒有去救市，本席說的不是干預，而是你要去救市，股市我們有在救，匯市遇到這麼大的問題的時候，他昨天居然說他有發現有異常、異常到此為止。簡單來講，他講異常就是如果不管外資……搞不好有真外資、假外資，搞不好有國人繞一圈、產業繞一圈進來的，外資熱錢進來的居然有掠奪式、有禿鷹式的資金的時候，在這幾天我們的總裁已經發現了，如果已經發現了，這樣的救市或放手，你覺得是好還是不好？當然你不見得要干預，但是就產業和民眾的角度……你是行政院院長，你覺得他知道這個問題，卻沒有做任何協助去救市，你覺得這樣好嗎？對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為我們長期以來沒有採取干預政策，臺灣一直沒有被列入為會操縱匯率的國家，我們是一般的觀察名單而已，就因為延續這樣的慣例下來，所以央行自然在比較合於規定的情況底下，對匯市實施穩定的措施，但是經過前兩天之後，難免會發現有些外資進出的時間、數量及次數都有一些值得觀察的時候，所以今天早上我也講了，臺灣不是操縱匯率的國家，但是我們也絕不允許禿鷹來破壞、影響或操縱臺灣的匯市，如果有任何不法的狀況一旦發生，絕對要立刻有效地處理。"],["魯委員明哲：我是覺得這方面應該要有更積極的作為，因為我們的出口產業，甚至有很多以美元做避險的產業，真的受影響非常大。如果在全球的匯率做異常管理，這個部分已經是史詩級的，就是單日跳升或降已經到過去三、四十年最高的比率。如果就全球來檢驗，一定是有異常，這個異常會不會變成相關的名單？這個部分我覺得央行要注意，你們也要注意。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，會注意。"],["魯委員明哲：第三個問題是有關產業界的，你知道產業界關切關稅問題，美國關稅的問題正在處理，由副院長帶隊去，我們期待滿深的，我跟你講，全臺灣的出口產業真的是做不下去，這個部分我覺得不管哪個黨派，要有共識，一定要為臺灣爭取最大的利益，讓我們的產業能夠活下去，我個人絕對這樣認為。可是坦白講，現在出口產業的第一把刀還沒卸下來，就看談判的結果如何，假設是90天，希望到時候有好的結果，讓我們的出口產業在世界出口的競賽中能夠生存。結果匯市、匯率這幾天坦白講很多在談，正好與美金……現在因為世界貿易問題，談好的訂單有時候幾個月要交貨，我的天啊！現在真的是遇到非常麻煩的問題，等於對他們來講，一把刀還沒有拔出來，第二把刀就插進去。","我現在要請教你，我不知道你有沒有預測，明天正好是5月7號，當然，美國總統川普講的話現在唯一不變的就是一直在變，所以他講5月7號會宣布，其實我也不太確定，可是美國時間5月7號搞不好就非常快了，他說5月7號會有我們出口IT產業第三把刀，如果宣布，就是對於我們的晶片、IT產業非常重要，要開始宣布特殊的關稅。第一個，你有沒有掌握這樣的情報？第二個，如果有，不要講日期，你覺得大概幅度是多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：鄭麗君副院長跟談判辦公室楊珍妮政委非常辛苦地完成跟美國正式面對面的磋商，他們帶回來的消息足以讓我們覺得往下一步走是一個好的開始。至於明天5月7號，我們再度地向外界說明，這是美國廣對世界所有其他國家，希望大家提出一個對232條款的公眾說明書，他們再來做討論，而不是一個具體的談判時間點。我方也備妥了意見書，會依照我們備妥的方案針對ICT產業、半導體產業如何保障我國產業的安定、穩定跟繼續的高科技領導，我們會往這個方向去爭取國家最大的利益。"],["魯委員明哲：所以你的團隊有預測嗎？不要每次都是人家宣布了，你再講當時你們預測如何、如何。你有沒有預測？講真的，有沒有預測？不方便講沒關係，但有沒有預測？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們有評估跟各種設算，但是現在……"],["魯委員明哲：有評估？就是等他宣布之後，你才可以宣布？"],["卓院長榮泰：我覺得他宣布沒有那麼快，我們還要進行詳細的評估。"],["魯委員明哲：我覺得你們要更慎重去注意，尤其在我們出口產業、IT這部分，如果第三把刀就在5月上旬再插進來的時候，你會遇到非常非常多的問題必須解決。","最後一個問題，請交通部部長。部長，你邊走，我邊問。請問一下，未來交通部會面對很多包括美國車每年進口怎麼能夠只有七十幾台，這些肯定變成非關稅的貿易障礙，你們也都知道，就這個部分，你們有沒有題庫、相關的做法交給談判代表？你們自己在行政院開過會，對於這些談判代表從副院長以降應該掌握的相關題庫、處理機制，你們有沒有提供？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們跟行政院有開過數次的會議，包含我在內、包含次長在內、還有相關的單位跟行政院開過數次的會議，所以所有的幕僚作業、該提供的資訊跟資料，我們都有提供。"],["魯委員明哲：好的，有提供。這次交通部有派誰參加關稅談判作為代表？部長？次長？部長在嘛，肯定沒有，有沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：談判的部分沒有。"],["魯委員明哲：有沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：談判的部分沒有。"],["魯委員明哲：但是你們的意見都已經在內部討論了，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對，都已經交去協商團隊。"],["魯委員明哲：我今天要跟卓院長建議，拜託央行不要再這樣講，不要再講，說什麼我們央行沒有參與、沒有派代表參與去美國貿易談判，它當然沒有啊！部長也在這邊，交通部沒有一個人去啊！難道就代表我們交通部沒有任何相關的意見帶去？當然不是！你們在國內開了N次會，央行也一樣，對於美債、外匯存底、相關的匯率要有準備的方案，你自己去不去談，跟你的意見有沒有去……我覺得不要再講「我個人沒有站在美國的現場」，這不代表你交通部或者央行你們的意見……不要再用這個作為解釋，這是我跟部長、院長的建議。"],["卓院長榮泰：他真正的意思是說，這次談判沒有涉及匯率的問題，他的原意應該是在這裡。"],["魯委員明哲：對，我知道。可是你不要跟我說，代表團這麼專業，代表行政院、代表我們國家過去，如果美國談到任何美債、外匯存底或者匯率的問題時，我們是講：抱歉！我們沒有這個意見。不可能！如果你這樣講，我就覺得，哇！天啊！什麼叫做完全的準備呢？","接下來談一些港務的問題，首先，我們也要謝謝院長，你上任不到一個月就宣示要跟毒品宣戰，而且總共有4年時間要投入150億來跟毒品宣戰，我覺得這很重要。而且還有所謂六大守護神，已經寫在這上面了，就是檢、警、調等等相關單位，像檢、警、調很多都是要靠線報，再來剩下的部分，即毒品已經分散出去了，他在調查的中間，在某一個KTV或者某一個party，或者某一個場域，然後抓到了，其實這都是最尾端的，那可是會忙死人！所以我們覺得在臺灣，毒品的源頭管理是非常非常重要的，以臺灣來說，我們的源頭就在港口（空港、海港），港口的管制是非常非常重要的，我們看到過去幾年在空港的嚴謹度上，對於人、對於人所帶的物品、對於相關的查緝，我不敢說都查得到，但是我感覺有比較嚴謹，所以現在海港的狀況你覺得怎麼樣呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們的六大守護神，包括反詐的、反毒的，除了檢、警、調、憲，還有海巡跟關務，就是委員所說的空港跟海港。"],["魯委員明哲：部長，對於港務公司有沒有想法？怎麼樣去整合這六個單位？就你所知道在海港的部分，整合的情況如何？因為整合就是有一定的調度、配合、一條鞭，若發生什麼事情時，是由港務公司或是誰來主導平常的、日常的check-in動作？就你所知，整合的部分，港務公司的角色是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：港務公司長期以來都有配合我們的檢、警、調，調查的部分當然會配合。另外，針對港務跟海巡的配合，其實也有長期在配合，但是前一陣子確實發生過船員攜帶毒品的問題，我也請港務公司現在針對這樣子的問題，怎麼樣跟我們的執法單位大家來配合，以杜絕這樣子的可能性再次發生。"],["魯委員明哲：好。這個圖表上列了兩次的案情，就在基隆港，去年的4月17號，這有可能是偵破日，搞不好在之前就已經發生這個事情了，這是基隆港員工運送價值3.2億的大麻，當然有線報，所以被抓到了，起訴了，但其實我們擔心這中間還有黑數。第二個是在今年的3月24號，有抓到、有偵破，即長榮海運現任跟離職的船員走私大麻，這兩個案子我們的院長都清楚、有掌握嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然從新聞上有看到，我是覺得就整個過程，第一個，線報很重要；再來科技的執法很重要；另外，我們現在很多的緝毒犬，也發揮了很大的效果。但我們自己的同仁，或者是海運的相關業者，讓我覺得很痛心，他應該是把關的第一線，竟然成為破口之所在，所以我認為就這個部分，如果是公務同仁，我們直接、一定要求司法嚴辦，公務機關行政上也要祭出處分；如果是海運的這些同仁、海運的這些職員，海運公司內部自我管理也應該要加強。"],["魯委員明哲：院長，這真的是跨部會、跨單位，而且檢、警、調都頗有本位主義，可是在港區發生的，到底誰去把這整件事情讓它做個圓滿？坦白講，行政院的部分，我不是說你來做，但你一定要派人去整合這樣一個問題，請部長說一下，發生這個事情之後，目前各單位、六大守護神跟港務公司整合得怎麼樣了？"],["陳部長世凱：港務公司當然有找相關的單位來開會，另外，目前港務公司自己自主針對員工的管制、船員的管制跟檢查的部分也有加強。"],["魯委員明哲：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們海巡經常跟國際合作，尤其跟美方合作，在海上破獲相當多的案子，當然是有接到線報，進行國際合作來破獲在海上的毒品案，海巡同仁都要很艱難地冒著危險登艦去做一些必要的搜檢工作，這個是海巡同仁經常付出心力在做的。"],["魯委員明哲：好，其實我最擔心是例行性的、daily、每一天的，就是你如何去掌控一些基本的情況並從中發現一些問題，我們看到從108年到112年以港務公司為主，經常和相關單位召開會議，也有相關的專家學者去做處理。在108年說要確實依規定檢查人員、個人的物品以及車輛跟車上的物品，這個很合理，那改善情況就是已改善並依規定辦理，這代表什麼呢？在108年的時候有遇到這種例外的情況，有人員又發生了一些事情，不見得是毒品，他覺得應該要加強改善，就是已改善嘛！在110年有類似的情況，就是人員未經許可進入港區應該要怎麼樣處理、有什麼機制，然後就表示又有一些漏洞需要再檢討，然後是已改善並依規定辦理，表示之前有一些遺漏的地方。最近在112年是加強落實車輛的管理。我覺得基本功很重要，因為我們臺灣除了自己本身在運作，我們也是世界的一員，我相信部長知道什麼是ISPS，已經二十幾年了，在2002年全世界的海港當時為了反恐、怕炸彈等什麼東西被載運進來，所以訂定了一個非常嚴肅的規定，針對港口甚至船舶還有相關的設施訂了一個非常明確的SOP，然後是一套完整的港口保全制度。部長，第一個，你知不知道這整套的系統跟制度？再來，港務公司跟相關的支援單位有沒有做到？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分請你明示，這個部分我沒有掌握。"],["魯委員明哲：你沒掌握？那我建議你回去，因為已經很久了，對於整個港口該怎麼管制，我們自己按照過去的經驗也沒有用嘛！要參考全世界的經驗，甚至有一些港口發生重大維安事件，不是發生在我們這裡，然後人家把這個經驗跟我們分享，包括該怎麼管制，分為第一關、第二關，針對這個部分，我們希望在今天總質詢之後，我希望院長、部長能夠多關心我們現在以商港為主的這個部分，並做進一步的處理，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們跟其他國家有共同打擊犯罪，其中有一些已經在合作，另外有一些是我們自己在裝備，比方說雷達偵測系統上不及的部分，我都跟海巡署講，我們預計要採用最新的設備，跟世界同步，能夠做情報的分享，我想這個部分我們會極力地趕上。"],["魯委員明哲：好，那接下來我們再看，因為我想這個是最基本功，每天有這麼多，你們不斷地開會，對於人員跟人員帶的物品，對於車輛、車輛帶的物品，你們已經三番兩次說要加強、加強，就代表其實不用我說，大家也知道這是你們daily必須要去做的。可是我們看到在長榮海運大麻這個案子有3個人進出港口，有臨時的、有現任的，第一位蔡員就是這個姓蔡的先生，這是他出入港口的紀錄，這個有正式的回文，警政署說港警有記錄到，然後港務公司有登錄到，可是在長榮公司的CCTV沒看到這個人；第二個賴員是在港警、警政單位有紀錄，然後港務公司沒有勾稽到，第三個是在長榮的CCTV監視系統也沒看到；最後一位是在這三個部分都沒有，大家都沒有人看到，他就在港區裡面跑來跑去。所以我剛剛講其實不管是國際的CODE、ISPS怎麼樣去做到，可是我們要先倒過來，那個高深的學問你們再去研究好不好？這個是大家都看得懂的，我們有幾個人站在第一線，就像我們院長所說的六大守護神，那守護神有時候是不是在睡覺還是有發呆、失靈的情況？到底要怎麼解決？請部長來回答一下，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員……"],["魯委員明哲：為什麼有這種交錯，你們面對這些問題已經幾個月了，你剛剛說有討論，討論發覺是什麼問題，如何改善？"],["陳部長世凱：這樣子的表格看得很清楚，有一些單位確實在通行證和門哨管制沒有百分之百落實，這個是我們必須要檢討，也必須要趕快改善的。現在港務公司給我這邊的回報是他們已經有開過會討論怎麼樣去落實，包含你所提到的港警及港務公司部分，另外跟航運公司的協調，他們也有做過，詳細的內容，我會後再跟委員報告。"],["魯委員明哲：做了希望有效果，我們再三追問，只有兩個單位說有精進，其他單位好像覺得跟它沒有什麼關係，警政署提了一個精進方案，港務公司也提了一個精進方案，過去只要船員去申請當次的，現在要船東代表事前登錄，而且要做double check，做這個double check的動作更嚴謹。部長，你覺得有沒有信心，經過double check，也已經實施可能一、兩個月了，部長，你講一下好了，因為太小的議題我就不問院長了。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們會有信心，院長的指示是要有決心，一定要把它做好、做到。"],["魯委員明哲：做好、做到，精進方案已經上路大概一、兩個月了，我們來看看怎麼精進，你們看一下，這是臺北港昨天下午4時46分的情況，我們期待這個崗哨是不是應該有人守在那裡，首先，崗哨是空的，沒有人站在外面，然後有人嗶一聲燈亮，有轎車通過，可是沒有人看，完全沒有任何反應，這樣子也可以通行，現在的情況就是這樣。到底誰管制，第一個，人員管制沒有，剛剛院長說我們有科技管制，不是，他嗶一聲亮或者不亮、合不合格，他照樣可以自己通行，這個部分真的要院長來做一個協調處理，因為這個可能又是警政單位。昨天我們秘書看到這個狀況覺得很奇怪，他看不懂，有人嗶一聲，有人沒有，進進出出非常通暢，結果我們進去看在裡面的警員，覺得奇怪了，為什麼有嗶到和沒有嗶到、有沒有亮、有沒有檢驗到，他都可以出去？再來，對於這些轎車的部分，我覺得像很多的貨櫃、貨運，我們期待公司上貨的時候自主管理，我們相信它，因為這是關於國家運貨的效率，你知道嗎？甚至讓貨櫃車、大車堵在門口，每一個要爬上去檢查，我覺得這個不合理，但是轎車的部分誰自主管理？到底發生了什麼事？結果昨天的員警特別說不要問我，這個設施有時候會出問題，你要去問這個設施的廠商，所以我們覺得很尷尬，精進方案已經上路了，在精進方案沒有上路前，對於人車尤其是個人，沒有自主管理過的，不是那種大貨車，到底發生什麼事了？照這樣嗶一下裡面多載一個人也沒事，講真的，你看多載一個人、兩個人完全一點事情都沒有，我倒是覺得很奇怪，這個東西我倒不會去怪交通部，可是如果那個系統有亮、沒亮都可以，員警執法也很無奈，他變成已經被騙很多次了，所以狼來了，他乾脆也不出去了，有亮、沒亮都不行，這個部分是很嚴重的。院長，你看到這個情況，好像不太符合剛剛前面的要求，你說說看要怎麼樣去精進改善？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我覺得第一個非常遺憾，但更感謝委員提供這樣的資訊，5月5日16時46分這個崗哨的人員到底是誰，在行政上我會要求臺北港跟交通部要做強力的要求，到底它的人員有沒有盡到責任。另外，這些進出車輛有沒有經過安全檢查的程序、過程如何，一定要詳實報告，如果有行政上的疏忽，我們一定要做行政上的追究，謝謝委員。"],["魯委員明哲：好，希望能夠逐步精進，因為事實上，很多人常常會經過要進去港口，是什麼樣的情況，我一再說對於營業、大量、有自主管理的車輛載貨，不要再把人家打開了！看用怎麼樣的方式，但是對於不明的轎車或者沒有嗶一聲的，這部分我覺得要有一些作為。","接下來我們再看，一樣是港務公司，在幾年前港務公司為了科技創新、鼓勵科技創新，用科技的方法，對港務公司的港口需求提供科技的解決方案，也希望在實驗之後能夠落地商轉；簡單講，在實驗完之後，現在就在港口、港務公司的港域實施，甚至能夠從實驗港拓展到所有的商港，這是港務公司目前在網站上開宗明義用科技去管理的部分，請問一下部長，你知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我大概知道。"],["魯委員明哲：好，政府沒有補助的就算了，但政府補助的有三項創新工作以港口作為實驗場域，因為時間有限，我們希望你們自己去查清楚、了解一下。這三個政府補助是無人載具智慧巡檢，補助了五千多萬；在臺北港自駕巴士區塊鏈物流服務，也是交通部的，補助3,600萬；第三個，應該是高雄港的無人機後勤補給，由數位部補助1,300萬，我就請問一下……算了！如果你剛剛的都沒聽過的話，這幾個最後的結果，其實坦白講，到111年、112年結案了，本身當時的計畫已經結案了，到底哪一個落地？港務公司要講一下嗎？到底哪一個是現在進行式？代表實驗成功了，我們推展科技了，因為當時是港務公司的需求，不是人家硬塞進來的一個案子。我跟你講是花錢築夢，夢醒一場空，這三個補助計畫，到目前為止，沒有一個可以正常落地，變成科技支援港口公司的，所以這到底是不是港務公司的需求？因為當時你不是部長，我只是說你現在要去了解，到底哪些是可以落地的？甚至還要發展到全臺灣港口去做，甚至還誇言可以輸出國外去做比賽？","以無人載具智慧巡檢最後的結案，專家學者寫的第20項，第一個，無人載具有天候限制。委員問他下雨天會不會影響到無人機的視覺？結果開玩笑地回答不會，你知道為什麼不會？因為我們雨天不出勤。基隆港大概平均200到230天是雨天，我們的科技創新在實驗階段大概有六成的時間不用出勤，會不會受雨天影響？所以是不會。諸如此類奇奇怪怪的情況，沒有一個落地的，包括巴士區塊鏈的部分，只有直線700公尺用智慧駕駛，其他都是一個人在上面開，現在有沒有落地？所以我這邊拜託院長及部長，針對這種新興方案花了國家的錢，應該要有一個落地，要不要提出一個說明，請你們後面去瞭解，好嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝魯委員，謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，現在在議場二樓旁聽席的是法務部司法官學院的學員，我們在此表示歡迎他們的參訪，謝謝。","下一位請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1144201_00004"}}},{"id":"160956","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160956","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/db1f27f750492026bc80e804e8f76e205a34676b63038810f012da86b99b57b73f69a6de72969f305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"09:16:43 - 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謝謝主席 我們有請卓榮泰卓院長請卓院長備詢公務員好"},{"start":27.608,"end":49.5,"text":"院長早安 院長 院長記得上次在我們經濟組總質詢的時候本席有跟您表達善意 就是對於去年的這個風災本席向中央爭取台東農產全品項的這個災損救助還有旅宿業者的店家動漲後來行政院也確實聽見我們地方的聲音我想這是行政院跟立法委員之間一個非常理想的互動的方式"},{"start":50.26,"end":74.786,"text":"那這一次本席在交通組總質詢一開始想要先跟院長分享一首詩做一個善意的引言這邊也分享給所有我們中央部會的首長這首詩是余光忠先生所寫的《台東》本席讀其中的幾段給院長聽城市比台北是矮一點天比台北卻高得多燈比台北是淡一點心比台北卻亮得多"},{"start":75.706,"end":90.834,"text":"人比西岸是西一點 山比西岸勸密得多港比西岸是小一點 海比西岸卻大得多報紙送到是晚一點 太陽起來卻早得多無論地球怎麼轉 台東永遠在前面"},{"start":92.059,"end":121.026,"text":"我想這首詩是對台東人來說感觸特別的深厚雖然台東比較遠人比較少不過台東擁有全台灣最美麗的海岸線我想這裡的人也非常的緩解溫暖最重要的是台東人的和善絕對不代表台東人好起伏那對本席而言這首詩的最後兩句就是無論地球怎麼轉台東永遠在前面這就是我從政的初衷只要是為了台東好的事情我一定全力以赴"},{"start":121.886,"end":132.156,"text":"我也不怕得罪任何人這也是先前東海岸風電開發案本席一再要求院長跟各部會首長一定要全力阻止跟嚴審因為我絕對不允許"},{"start":135.27,"end":162.278,"text":"未經共識的開發案破壞我們台東美麗的環境我們的家園也絕對不允許任何外力破壞台東這片團結善良的家園那今天質詢的一開始本席要先把握機會跟院長反映一件台東重要的時事就是現在是我們鬼頭島的這個漁訓期那但是有很多漁民朋友都跟我反映那國防部公告在五月份在台東屏東一帶的外海有許多這個實彈射擊的演習"},{"start":163.138,"end":189.333,"text":"那演習期間因為海域的管制 漁民沒有辦法出海捕魚那這對當地漁民是一個很大的衝擊原來整條都有經營能蓋這個漁訊期就是4月到6月還有9月到11月那其中又以4月到6月的漁獲量最多但光是5月受到演習影響的時間就恐怕高達半個月之久那本席要表達的是說國防自主能力是捍衛國家安全的重要基礎本席絕對支持"},{"start":190.313,"end":210.488,"text":"但是這幾年密集的在我們東部海域進行的這個實彈射擊造成漁民生氣很大很大的影響我們例如在2022年光是一到五月中科院跟國軍在台東外海射擊演訓的時間就超過了五十天這引發地方劇烈的反彈那國防部後來也承諾說未來演習會避開漁訓期"},{"start":213.61,"end":238.302,"text":"那延後到六月到七月那同時也說會編列這個敦青木林的基金齁那但是為什麼現在漁民很懷疑說有時候你國防部之前還要選擇五個月份魚仔回去蒸來這裡延伸齁這很多漁民會認為國防部說話不算話那另外還有多漁民反映說國防部所謂的這個基金齁漁民根本拿不到這個實質的補貼啦齁所以在這裡本縣要向議員們來表達的是說臺灣的漁民絕對管理配合般的國防"},{"start":242.844,"end":264.031,"text":"但是國家也要給漁民條活路所以因此我要請院長才是請國防部務必遵守當時的承諾超延的時間避開漁訊期才不會衝擊我們當地的這個產業那如果對於產業造成的衝擊也必須要給受影響的這個從業人員必要的補貼請問院長是不是可以做得到"},{"start":264.831,"end":292.797,"text":"首先謝謝委員一開始針對國家安全國防需求的支持這我們的心情都一樣第二就是國防部他一定有整年度的所謂演習各種的規劃那目前很多的規劃也要因應對岸時常對我們時不時有計劃沒計劃有公告沒公告定期不定期的各種演訓但是我承諾我會跟國防部去了解跟要求在保護漁民的"},{"start":294.048,"end":317.045,"text":"魚訊期的過程當中應該事先做好整年的規劃事發生之前要做事中要做好跟漁民的溝通事後有任何的補償、賠償的問題一定要確實落實謝謝院長因為其實這個是漁民是很疑惑是說東西都說好了你才知道後悔四月到六月是魚要大出的時候你這個時候再來延伸我聽說過去檢討這個事情謝謝院長"},{"start":321.969,"end":347.745,"text":"接下來本席來跟針對台東重大的交通跟公共議題來跟院長還有部長來進行討論首先本席有看到台鐵宣布配合小清水溪的這個橋改建的工程完工樹林到台東之間要增加增開兩班這個自強號的列車那東部鐵路量能提升當然是好事情但關鍵的是小清水溪橋就是因為先前颱風被土石流沖斷所以才需要進一步改建"},{"start":348.405,"end":374.744,"text":"尤其是可見我們東部的鐵路非常非常的脆弱而現在所謂的增加班次其實也只是逐步恢復到過去的這個量能尤其是現在這個增加的這兩班都是中午時間才發生這對我們台東居民這個通勤啊就醫工作需求有點幫助其實是有限那其實除了到台北之外台東到高雄的這個往返列車也是相新急迫的這個需求那經常因為"},{"start":376.124,"end":397.683,"text":"要到高雄就診或是工作因為我們早班的車太少導致民眾必須提前一天去高雄或者又因為晚班的車趕不上需要多留一天在高雄隔天再去醫院就醫這樣一來一往會增加一到兩天的住宿費的負擔這是非常沉重的一個負擔一直本期具體的要求"},{"start":398.403,"end":424.85,"text":"增加我們台東往返高雄的這個清晨與深夜的班次我想這有助於民眾到高雄就醫或是工作能夠當日往返降低我們交通的時間跟成本也降低衍生的這個住宿的成本強化我們醫療就醫就診交通的這個可靜性也安排時間讓安排時間更有具有彈性性讓我們照顧我們台東人這個行的正義請問部長這邊是不是可以承諾來研議這個部分"},{"start":425.77,"end":445.749,"text":"報告委員這個部分確實對台東的鄉親來說其實往南走到高雄是比較近的不管是就醫或就學那這個部分需求確實在那我們會來研議這個班次看怎麼調整不過現在最關鍵的其實是南回的整個路線的改善因為很多的路段目前是單軌委員應該非常清楚"},{"start":446.209,"end":459.309,"text":"因為是單軌所以他這個車輛的數目沒有辦法大幅的來提升所以南回的軌道的建設我們一樣會往前推進那另外委員剛剛所交代的就是說車次的調整我們來想辦法"},{"start":461.157,"end":482.13,"text":"謝謝部長承諾願意來研議這件事情那接下來我們就是談到台鐵就是談我們台鐵票價的部分上次在總諮詢的時候院長也有承諾本席說會請交通部盡快的來研議我們華東專屬優惠票價的部分那在隔週交通委員會的時候陳部長也有承諾本席五月底之前會提出"},{"start":482.91,"end":496.3,"text":"那目前從我們中央社的這個街頭的資訊來看中央部規劃的方案仍然是只有會員制點數加倍那本席簡單的換算一下按照現在目前我們台鐵會員折抵的方式是每消費50元累積1點"},{"start":499.932,"end":517.426,"text":"兩點折一元就是說等於每消費一百塊才能折抵一元那就是一趴的回饋金那你即便未來花東加倍也就只有兩趴的回饋但問題是這一次的票價調整台北到台東之前還有單趟就漲了一百五十三元來回就是三百零六元"},{"start":518.166,"end":540.762,"text":"那如果依照我們現行台鐵規劃的花東優惠方案,有兩個嚴重的問題,第一個就是說,用台北到台東來回自強號來換算,你消費金額大概只能折18.7元,你用19塊去算就好了,跟你來回票價調漲306塊來比起來真的是杯水車薪。第二個其實很多長者根本不會使用智慧型手機,"},{"start":542.083,"end":570.729,"text":"這樣要怎麼去累積點數甚至去折扣這個票價這是本席發現這兩個問題因此從目前台鐵的這個方案來看所謂的優惠恐怕讓花東的居民是無感那也恐怕看得到吃不到那請問院長你覺得目前這樣的優惠方案難道對於東部交通弱勢地位而言是足夠的嗎部長詳細說明部長的方案報告委員您所聽到的加倍送不是只有一倍是好幾倍"},{"start":572.14,"end":598.631,"text":"你一百塊跟一塊錢對 但是它好幾倍的狀況不會像你所說的只有百分之二不會這麼少這個是台鐵提出來的優惠方案沒有 我覺得你所聽到的加倍但那個倍不是一倍有可能是四倍 可能是五倍因為行政院院長有特別交代說第一要對花東的鄉親要多一些優惠第二我們希望平日跟假日要有彈性所以我們平日的優惠又會更多"},{"start":599.191,"end":614.403,"text":"謝謝部長的說明部長其實我們在委員會已經討論過這件事還有第二個就是所謂連長者怎麼去使用這個部分都是還是要克服這個部分其實台鐵都有在研議如果到櫃台找我們的同仁他也會幫長者來服務這個會員的連長者都可以克服的"},{"start":618.166,"end":634.493,"text":"院長,本席為什麼要不斷地爭取花東專屬票價的優惠跟折扣?就是因為你跟西部比起來,西部多元的大空交通工具比起來東部基本上就只有鐵路啦,不然就是昂貴的飛機票更關鍵的是東部的鐵路受到天災影響的敏感度非常高嘛"},{"start":634.833,"end":658.766,"text":"在安全性上你跟西部比遠遠不足嘛那現在你要用一樣的票價的方式來算我想這東部人不會接受啦這個就是本席為什麼一直提齁那因為我記得好幾個月前本席就呼籲中央說要用花東基金的專款專用的補貼方式給你花東居民的優惠票價那先前本席質詢國發會主委還有城市港部長的時候你們也認為這是可行的方向對吧"},{"start":659.326,"end":683.348,"text":"那甚至在前兩天連民進黨的委員都呼籲本席的說法認為應該用花東基金來補貼嘛那非常一樣我們交通部現在都還沒有任何具體的作為那本席其實有掌握到其實交通部內部確實有來討論這件事情花東基金給予票價的折扣是一個可行的方向但問題現在是聽說卡在系統來不及跟上我想這個說法本席都沒辦法接受"},{"start":683.988,"end":702.22,"text":"因為票價你是從二月就規劃要調漲那過去三個月呢難道沒有任何預先的這個配套的準備這部分我請陳部長你必須要扛起責任勇於任事本席在這邊也提出兩個具體的要求請組委員長來採釋第一個交通部必須在台鐵新票價上路之前"},{"start":702.84,"end":727.856,"text":"規劃好花東優惠票價的方案並且要直接補貼或者是折扣而不是只有民眾無感的會員制點數優惠第二個 交通部必須立刻與國發會來開會討論有關花東基金補貼的事宜並進行提案申請然後作為未來穩定的裁員請院長回應 而且也要請我們相關部會一週內把相關的資料提供到本席的辦公室 院長"},{"start":729.015,"end":753.788,"text":"謝謝委員 西部的交通選項比較多東部比較少所以我們當然是記憶這樣的一個利基點所以我也請交通部能夠對東部的鄉親做這些票價上面的另外的想法不要說委員 剛剛你如果委員所說只有2%不要說委員來你接受我也覺得不甚合理但是我所知道交通部現在在研擬的絕對不是這個方案給他們一點時間那麼這個一定會在6月"},{"start":757.578,"end":781.58,"text":"調價之前一定會把這個方案完全確定而且沒有所謂系統銜接的上銜接不上的問題一定要開始適用這個跟委員保證謝謝院長也謝謝部長其實我們本席跟部長的互動其實都很好因為部長也真的夠了解到東部的交通的這個先天的不足的問題那這邊要請部長這邊盡快來演繹那另外講到的道路就是"},{"start":782.441,"end":810.922,"text":"交通才就是道路的問題喔那一條安全回家的路是台東是東部人數十年來最基本的要求花東快也是當年賴清德總統的競選承諾那就在去年本席跟黨黨立委的共同努力下立法院終於通過了組決議要求交通部盡速推動花東快速公路的興建但非常遺憾上一次我在交通委員會跟陳市長部長您討論花東快可行性評估進度的時候您竟然當面跟我說經濟效益確實"},{"start":813.583,"end":831.71,"text":"這不就是坐實了之前媒體所說的花東快被推薦的原因就是因為交通部認為經濟效益低嘛那部長的說法東部人絕對沒有辦法接受因為西部這麼多條的快速道路難道每一條的經濟效益都很高嗎更何況現在台中是連一條我連一條都沒有"},{"start":833.231,"end":850.686,"text":"因此這絕對不應該是政府的理由安全才是最重要的主席長、陳部長本席要很嚴肅的跟兩位表達生命的價值絕對不能用金錢來衡量花蓉花園對東部人的意義就是要挽救無價的這個生命這件事情不是政治議題這個是攸關數十萬東部鄉親生命"},{"start":855.083,"end":879.955,"text":"安全的民生議題請重要一定要正視不要再把台東當二等公民那現在台九縣一旦發生緊急醫療事件即便救護車全數的搶救也常常因為會錯過黃金救援時間造成太多這個無辜生命因為漫長的交通時間而失去那這就是為什麼台東人要這麼在意發動快我認為我們台東人的命要比我長"},{"start":881.192,"end":881.852,"text":"經濟效益的評估 當然是"},{"start":899.727,"end":925.156,"text":"既然有志啦但是我是覺得如果從一小段來看他的效益或許有限如果放大整個台灣我們你要看整個台灣形成一個有效的鐵道系統的話他不只是經濟效益對台灣整體的國家的運量是極然增加的所以我是希望交通部能夠持續的去研議這個事情謝謝院長的承諾 謝謝院長那接下來在公共旅遊部分"},{"start":925.996,"end":930.338,"text":"因為時間有限,我想之後再來跟我們院長跟部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":77,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（9時16分）謝謝主席，有請卓榮泰卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：院長早安。院長，記得上次在經濟組總質詢的時候，本席有跟您表達善意，就是對於去年的風災，本席向中央爭取臺東農產全品項的災損救助以及旅宿業者的電價凍漲，後來行政院也確實聽見我們地方的聲音，我想這是行政院跟立法委員之間一個非常理想的互動方式。這一次本席在交通組總質詢一開始想要先跟院長分享一首詩，做一個善意的引言，這邊也分享給所有中央部會的首長，這首詩是余光中先生所寫的「台東」，本席讀其中的幾段給院長聽：「城比台北是矮一點，天比台北卻高得多；燈比台北是淡一點，星比台北卻亮得多……人比西岸是稀一點，山比西岸卻密得多；港比西岸是小一點，海比西岸卻大得多；報紙送到是晚一點，太陽起來卻早得多。無論地球怎麼轉，台東永遠在前面。」這首詩對臺東人來說感觸特別地深，雖然臺東比較遠、人比較少，不過臺東擁有全臺灣最美麗的海岸線，這裡的人也非常地團結、溫暖，最重要的是，臺東人的和善絕對不代表臺東人好欺負。對本席而言，這首詩的最後兩句「無論地球怎麼轉，台東永遠在前面」，這就是我從政的初衷，只要是為了臺東好的事情，我一定全力以赴，我也不怕得罪任何人。這也是先前東海岸風電開發案，本席一再要求院長跟各部會首長一定要全力阻止跟嚴審，因為我絕對不允許未經共識的開發案破壞我們臺東美麗的環境、我們的家園，也絕對不允許任何外力破壞臺東這片團結、善良的家園。","今天質詢的一開始，本席要先把握機會跟院長反映一件臺東重要的時事，就是現在是鬼頭刀的漁汛期，但是有很多漁民朋友都跟我反映，國防部公告5月份在臺東、屏東一帶的外海有許多實彈射擊的演習，演習期間，因為海域的管制，漁民沒有辦法出海捕魚，這對當地漁民是一個很大的衝擊，因為我們的鬼頭刀一年有2次漁汛期，就是4月到6月及9月到11月，其中又以4月到6月的漁獲量最多，但光是5月受到演習影響的時間恐怕就高達半個月之久。本席要表達的是，國防自主能力是捍衛國家安全的重要基礎，本席絕對支持。但是這幾年密集地在東部海域進行實彈射擊，造成漁民生計很大的影響，例如在2022年光是1到5月，中科院和國軍在臺東外海射擊演訓的時間就超過了50天，這引起地方劇烈的反彈。國防部後來也承諾未來演習會避開漁汛期，延後到6月至7月，同時也會編列敦親睦鄰基金。但是漁民不解為何國防部現在又選在5月份漁獲產季進行演習，很多漁民認為國防部說話不算話，另外還有很多漁民反映根本無法從敦親睦鄰基金拿到實質的補貼。在此，本席向院長表達，臺東的漁民絕對願意配合我們的國防，但是國家也要給漁民一條活路，因此我要請院長裁示，請國防部務必遵守當時的承諾，操演的時間避開漁汛期，才不會衝擊當地的產業。如果對產業造成衝擊，也必須給予受影響的從業人員必要的補貼，請問院長是否做得到？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先，謝謝委員一開始針對國家安全、國防需求的支持，我們的心情都一樣。第二，國防部一定有整年度演習的各種規劃，目前很多的規劃也要因應對岸時常有計畫、沒計畫、有公告、沒公告、定期以及不定期對我們的各種演訓，但是我承諾會向國防部瞭解及要求，在保護漁民漁汛期的過程中，應該事先做好整年的規劃，事中要做好跟漁民的溝通，事後有任何的補償或賠償的問題一定要確實落實。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝院長，漁民是很疑惑當時都講好了，而4月至6月是漁獲產季，這個時候卻來演習，真的會造成困擾。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我會再來檢討這個事情。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝院長。接下來，本席針對臺東重大的交通和觀光議題來跟院長和部長進行討論。首先，本席看到臺鐵宣布配合小清水溪橋改建工程完工，樹林到臺東之間增開2班自強號列車，東部鐵路量能提升當然是好事，但關鍵的是，小清水溪橋其實是因先前颱風被土石流沖斷，所以才需要進一步改建，由此可見東部的鐵路非常脆弱。所謂的增加班次，也只是回復到過去的量能，尤其增加的2個班次都是在中午時間才發車，這對臺東居民通勤、就醫及工作需求的幫助有限。其實除了到臺北之外，臺東到高雄的往返列車也是相形急迫的需求，因為早班的車次太少了，民眾至高雄就診或工作，經常需要提早一天抵達高雄，或又因為晚班的車趕不上，需要多留一天在高雄，隔天再至醫院就醫，這樣一來一往，會增加一至二天住宿費的負擔，這是非常沈重的。因此，本席具體要求，增加臺東往返高雄清晨和深夜的班次，這有助於民眾到高雄就醫或工作可以當日往返，降低交通的時間和成本，也降低衍生的住宿成本，強化醫療就醫、就診的交通可近性，讓安排時間也具有彈性，照顧臺東人行的正義，請部長是否可以承諾來研議這個部分？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，對臺東的鄉親來說，其實往南走到高雄是比較近的，不管是就醫或是就學，這個部分的需求確實存在，我們會來研議班次如何調整。現在最關鍵的其實是南迴路線的改善，因為很多路段目前是單軌，委員應該非常清楚，所以車輛的數目沒辦法大幅地提升。南迴軌道的建設一樣會往前推進，另外委員剛所交代的車次調整，我們來想辦法。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長承諾願意來研議這件事情。接下來，我們來談臺鐵票價部分，上次在總質詢的時候，院長也有承諾本席會請交通部儘快研議花東專屬優惠票價，在隔週交通委員會的時候，陳部長也有承諾本席5月底前會提出，目前從中央社揭露的資訊來看，交通部規劃的方案，仍然是只有會員制點數加倍，本席簡單地換算一下，按照目前臺鐵會員折抵的方式是每消費50元累積1點，兩點折1元，等於每消費100塊才能折抵1元，那就是1%的回饋金，即便未來花東加倍也就只有2%的回饋，但問題是這一次的票價調整，臺北到臺東自強號單趟就漲了153元，來回就是306元。如果依照現行臺鐵規劃的花東優惠方案，有兩個嚴重的問題，第一個、用臺北到臺東自強號來回換算，消費金額大概只能折18.7元，用19元去算好了，跟來回票價調整306塊比起來，真的是杯水車薪。第二個、其實很多長者根本不會使用智慧型手機，這樣要怎麼去累積點數，甚至折扣票價？這是本席發現的兩個問題。因此，從目前臺鐵的這個方案來看，所謂的優惠恐怕讓花東居民無感，也恐怕看得到、吃不到。請問院長，你覺得目前這樣的優惠方案，難道對於東部交通弱勢的地位而言，是足夠的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長詳細說明，以部長的方案、想法。"],["陳部長世凱：您所聽到的加倍送，不是只有1倍，而是好幾倍。"],["黃委員建賓：可是100元才折1塊錢！"],["陳部長世凱：但是好幾倍的狀況，不會像您所說的只有2%，不會這麼少。"],["黃委員建賓：這個是臺鐵提出來的優惠方案。"],["陳部長世凱：不！委員所聽到的加倍，但那個倍不是1倍，有可能是4倍，也有可能是5倍，因為行政院院長有特別交代：第一、對花東的鄉親要多一些優惠；第二、我們希望平日跟假日要有彈性，所以平日的優惠又會更多，假日可能沒有那麼多。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長的說明。部長，其實我們在委員會已經討論過這件事，還有第二個就是所謂年長者怎麼去使用這個部分，都還是要克服。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分其實臺鐵都有在研議，如果到櫃臺找我們的同仁，他們也會幫長者來服務、處理會員點數，這沒有問題，都可以克服。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長。院長，本席為什麼要不斷爭取花東專屬票價的優惠跟折扣？因為跟西部多元的大眾交通工具比起來，東部基本上就只有鐵路，不然就是昂貴的飛機票，更關鍵的是東部鐵路受到天災影響的敏感度非常高，在安全性上跟西部比遠遠不足。現在卻要用一樣的票價方式來算，我想東部人不會接受，這個就是本席為什麼一直提的。我記得好幾個月前本席就呼籲中央，要用花東基金專款專用的補貼方式，給予花東居民優惠票價，先前本席質詢國發會主委還有陳世凱部長，你們也認為這是可行的方向，甚至在前兩天連民進黨的委員都呼籲本席的說法，認為應該用花東基金來補貼，但非常遺憾，交通部現在都還沒有任何具體的作為。本席其實有掌握到交通部內部確實有討論這件事情，花東基金給予票價折扣是一個可行的方向，但現在聽說問題是卡在系統來不及跟上，本席沒辦法接受這個說法，因為票價是從2月就規劃要調漲，過去3個月難道沒有任何預先準備的配套嗎？這部分請陳部長必須要扛起責任、勇於任事。本席在這邊也提出兩個具體的要求，請卓院長來裁示：第一個、交通部必須在臺鐵新票價上路之前規劃好花東優惠票價方案，並且要直接補貼或者折扣，而不是只有民眾無感的會員制點數優惠；第二個、交通部必須立刻與國發會來開會，討論有關花東基金補貼的事宜，並進行提案申請，作為未來穩定的財源。請院長回應而且也要請交通部一週內把相關資料提供到本席辦公室。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。西部的交通選項比較多，東部比較少，我們當然是基於這樣的利基點，所以我也請交通部能夠對東部鄉親做這些票價上另外的想法。如果是剛剛委員所說只有2%，不要說委員難以接受，我也覺得不甚合理。"],["黃委員建賓：你也覺得這不合理，對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我所知道交通部現在在研擬的絕對不是這個方案，給他們一點時間，一定會在6月調價之前把這個方案完全確定，而且沒有所謂系統銜接得上、銜接不上的問題，一定要開始適用，跟委員保證。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝院長，也謝謝部長。其實本席跟部長的互動一直都很好，因為部長也能夠了解到東部交通先天不足的問題，這邊要請部長儘快來研議。","另外，交通就是道路的問題，一條安全回家的路是臺東、東部人數十年來最基本的要求，花東快也是當年賴清德總統的競選承諾，就在去年本席跟黨團立委的共同努力下，立法院終於通過了主決議，要求交通部儘速推動花東快速公路的興建。但非常遺憾，上一次我在交通委員會跟陳世凱部長討論花東快可行性評估進度的時候，你竟然當面跟我說：經濟效益確實不高。這不就是坐實之前媒體所說的，花東快被退件的原因就是因為交通部認為經濟效益低。而部長的說法，東部人絕對沒有辦法接受，所以西部這麼多條的快速道路，難道每一條的經濟效益都很高嗎？更何況現在臺東是連一條都沒有，因此這絕對不應該是政府的理由，安全才是最重要的。","卓院長、陳部長，本席要很嚴肅地跟兩位表達，生命的價值絕對不應該用金錢來衡量，花東快對東部人的意義就是要挽救無價的生命，這件事情不是政治議題，這個是攸關數十萬東部鄉親生命安全的民生議題，請中央一定要正視，不要再把臺東當二等公民。現在台9線一旦發生緊急醫療事件，即便救護車全速搶救，也常常因為錯過黃金救援時間，造成太多無辜生命因為漫長的交通時間而失去，這就是為什麼臺東人要這麼在意花東快，我們都說我們臺東人的命要比路長！本席要請院長裁示，必須要求交通部遵守立法院的主決議，並遵守賴總統當時的承諾，儘快提出花東快的評估報告，推動後續的興建，請問院長是不是可以做得到？"],["卓院長榮泰：經濟效益的評估當然是其來有自，但是我覺得如果從一小段來看，它的效益或許有限，如果放大整個臺灣，我們鳥瞰整個臺灣形成一個有效的鐵道系統的話，它不只是經濟效益，對臺灣整體國家的運量當然是增加的，所以我是希望交通部能夠持續去研議這個事情。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝院長的承諾，謝謝院長。接下來，在觀光旅宿部分，因為時間有限，我想之後再來跟院長跟部長討論，再一次謝謝院長和部長，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員、謝謝卓院長。","下一位請魯明哲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","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卓院長好4月25日經濟指導總執行"},{"start":38.959,"end":45.795,"text":"我有問你,偷中日美,你講要面向平壤,要背對著台灣海峽,"},{"start":47.475,"end":76.057,"text":"要告訴中國政府我們不走回頭路我們不走冤枉路我們不走臭的路再來你說要把台北城當為首都那時你回答不置可恍我再請教一下這個是不是要準備台灣獨立的一個宣告尤其從你昨天早上講出來的顯示特別重要你是不是在鋪陳這個"},{"start":77.861,"end":81.993,"text":"台北當然是中華民國台灣的首都這個沒有錯第二點我們的市場"},{"start":86.721,"end":111.302,"text":"看中國看太久我們必須轉向面向海洋走向世界你等於意思要跟中國所有的包括經濟交流要斷絕來往的意思在我們的經濟要走向全世界不能太依賴一個國家這裡面牽涉到我第二個問題也比較現代化的問題今天有很多報紙說賴總統五二年就職一週年"},{"start":112.463,"end":130.11,"text":"我們的內閣要換成戰鬥內閣要找會有論事的官員準備為大罷免啟動那大內閣會不會換你的覺得前面這一段我們的內閣是在每個自己的工作崗位上"},{"start":131.109,"end":157.308,"text":"去做競爭的你現在的內閣叫做什麼內閣告訴我才曉得行動創新內閣我們是以行動來現在以後戰鬥內閣跟你現在的內閣有什麼差別哪一個跟你現在的內閣未來報紙在寫說你們要組成戰鬥內閣準備要大連案好好的執政黨要發威一下要把在野黨的國會議員全部殲滅掉"},{"start":160.438,"end":161.764,"text":"我告訴你一件事 我也覺得很奇怪"},{"start":164.113,"end":192.671,"text":"在這裡面有幾個七十歲以上的國會的立法委員身兼百戰每一個人都當過六七八屆的一個立法委員我們吃小麥 今天要拔麵你們拔麵就要硬到這樣嘛所以我說你們真的要檢討一下要怎麼做前幾個一年 新的才有這麼多新的一年沒有必要做 協調溝通很重要"},{"start":193.744,"end":220.825,"text":"針對每一位委員經由選舉而且是憲法賦予的權利行政院當然尊重所以我是希望說我們在這裡行政院的業務跟這裡大選從來不涉及所謂罷免的議題你是尊重也沒有中立的立場你還上台去演講講的是中央政府總預算跟關稅的問題台灣啊這樣很亂我要回到主題好不好今天的交通執行我們的陳部長麻煩你也來一下"},{"start":222.246,"end":230.929,"text":"我第一個 我說苗栗的牧利值得中央支持 我很常常要講這個問題我們95年到112年苗栗為中央竄稅4147億中央給我們補資才2022億我們苗栗縣倒貼給中央是2125億"},{"start":247.884,"end":258.008,"text":"加育縣跟屏東縣都是三級縣市的財政他們95年加育縣963億中央補賦給他2430億他們給他一村西班牙才幾億屏東縣2627億交給中央中央補賦給他3589億他們可以"},{"start":273.353,"end":281.699,"text":"我每次都在這個執行台都拜託院長、部長我們的交通建設要好好給我們加油下去我們是邊緣網這時候是母女的孩子沒有糖吃所以我特別跟你拜託"},{"start":295.438,"end":312.685,"text":"我今天不管財政收支發昏了未來怎麼做但是我把苗栗的實況給你苗栗的負債五百億這邊你再分一下兩千多億都沒有負債我們有努力有為地方建設地方繁榮發財稅收一直在增加"},{"start":316.587,"end":325.879,"text":"你的回饋反而越低啊這個太不公平了不管未來怎麼樣我仍然希望左院長你繼續留任多多照顧苗玉仙"},{"start":327.315,"end":347.351,"text":"第二個問題我用大西谷計畫我希望行政院要出來協調因為我們有兩個科學園區一個產業園區但是我們兩個科學園區大概開發出來有350公頃可用之地但是國科會只要用150公頃但是這200公頃"},{"start":350.973,"end":373.844,"text":"國科會說這個開挖不是我認的國化會是上級指導的單位我說這個拜託今天國民司長也沒有來他當過國民司長在你坐在那裡我沒注意看到你現在當民司長說你幫我協調一下你授權給他協調一下好不好院長"},{"start":375.492,"end":381.215,"text":"不過我不知道要怎麼來開發,要怎麼來經營這對我們苗栗縣未來的發展太重要了"},{"start":382.403,"end":410.435,"text":"我今天來講是 拜託你我們的港執委 泰內行 國民司長所有人來幫我協調這件事情好不好跟委員報告兩件事第一個 行政院對苗栗不是善意是應該有的基本態度我們希望均衡地方 大家都同樣的起來所以 在我設想的這個財政收支方法如果照行政院的構想會讓財政弱的向縣市得到更多而不是向現在齊頭市的第二件"},{"start":411.535,"end":430.988,"text":"這個桃竹苗大細股可以說是在520之後行政院第一個核定的六大產業生活區所以我們會照這個速度來持續的往前推進速度我沒有主管機關啦我事情不會做的啦所以我特別請國民市長來幫我們協調一下如果是六大區域這個產業生活區的話它的規劃機關是國發會這樣啦但落到目的世界主管機關它就會不一樣"},{"start":435.191,"end":463.505,"text":"我很謝謝你 重大計畫由你手裡合整但是我苗栗縣碰到困難我只拜託國民司長來協調國科會 省政府會跟苗栗縣政府各個部位來協調誰當主管機關我才有辦法拖重大西部計畫完成賴總統及你們合定左院長你合定好不好阿卓 那個國民司長你們覺得要求求啊"},{"start":464.945,"end":475.11,"text":"議長說好 要幫我辦一下 跟他們合謀一下好不好再來我們交通部的陳部長你從市議員直升到交通部長 我走一下"},{"start":476.311,"end":502.826,"text":"我當時還以為不怎麼樣但是你到苗栗會刊的時候我發覺你回答任何問題非常成本非常實在很值得肯定我相信你經過歷練了以後你將來必有大用的但是你竟然會刊你都答應了你要把它做出來看你信用不信用就看在這裡就是"},{"start":504.498,"end":520.246,"text":"黃磊交流道你說要核定這個拜託我就不再多講了我希望能把這幾個重大的建設推動完成我就可以功成身退我就功德圓滿我不曉得要用哪一個這個你不答應喔第二個"},{"start":523.388,"end":552.498,"text":"西吳溪的合體公共西吳鄉只有五千多人最近兩年前才有一個那個7-11才在那邊開他要發展我已經推動三期的合體公共第四期的合體公共現在在可行性評估 好啊拜託一度你說你很照顧苗栗 關心苗栗我也謝謝你你下來我請你吃客家菜這條板他完成"},{"start":552.918,"end":572.346,"text":"照顧邊鄉的地區好不好再來西吳鄉為什麼選票雖然很少但是這個地方沒有發展我覺得我要改進這個地方環境就是西吳區人外道路安城北日南村便利遊客與鄉親這個屬於高工級的"},{"start":575.083,"end":585.193,"text":"那高工期裡面我希望特別注意我相信現在用很多工法可以把地方改變出來當然有少許阻力你一站不動"},{"start":587.271,"end":610.557,"text":"你未來是很前途的,我來講這個好要幫忙完成再來我講得很快,因為再來後龍好望角那天你會館沒有到現場但是當地的鄉鎮長、議員、代表、里長一直拜託你好望角這個觀光風景區非常的漂亮、非常的好"},{"start":612.298,"end":636.652,"text":"這兩條馬路一開跟廣天宮是結合在一起這兩個距離走路的話不到30分鐘可以增加很多遊覽的人口卓院長你那麼忙你還沒到苗栗我記得一次下次來多停留一下來看這個美好的地方你看完說不一定你不想當行政院長也不一定我請部長跟委員我們來規劃好不好再來"},{"start":642.247,"end":655.926,"text":"就是台13線銅鑼鄉到山陸火車站拓寬解開地方交通瓶檢台13線唯一沒有失線道只有這一段但是到四期裡面我們曉得會遇到很多指令"},{"start":657.25,"end":684.738,"text":"我們陳部長說答應人家協志承諾也要馬上進行這個一定要把它完成那裡面那一段我不勉強因為在市區裡面你再偷翻那裏的兵越來越多我再跟他們討論一個辦法出來好不好左院長這樣給你一個印象你知道說要怎麼做的事情這幾天起來是很重要的我不隨便提問題但是我提問題是直接進入核心再來"},{"start":685.734,"end":690.306,"text":"通宵產業生命之路通宵正直通銅鑼科學人群這兩個鄉鎮"},{"start":693.184,"end":721.427,"text":"是隔壘的那銅鑼現在一直在發展它隔壁的通宵輪口一直在流失如果能開一條道路從銅鑼科學園區接鄰的通宵鎮我相信對通宵鎮的就業繁榮、地方發展非常重要這條你不去看我會再排一次左院長有興趣到苗栗你們都來把這道路一開"},{"start":722.648,"end":742.199,"text":"你們的票數越多我的票數也應該不會少我們兩個共盟齊力因為這個是你們的地盤不是我的地盤好不好這條很重要你可能看出來寫出來你覺得說這個好像很簡單其實每一條都是有它的功用存在"},{"start":744.073,"end":763.673,"text":"再來這個Railbike 三立的話 現在是台灣最紅了 國際遊覽客很多張詩是不同意 報告院長 是我找鐵路局去協調工夫還有觀光局協調溝通 把它完成下來 不曉得 喔 人山人海"},{"start":764.714,"end":788.646,"text":"人潮非常多,我們希望能跟台中不要為了選舉這樣,地方這樣結合起來,這樣變得有難。你只要完成,說是卓院長的時代完成了,陳部長你的時代完成了,你只要談出來,不要去計較地方各種,他做還是我做的,誰做都一樣,我永遠都保持這樣的心。"},{"start":789.947,"end":813.247,"text":"所以這一條連接到台中、台安到台中尤其陳部長你帶上人,你這個把客戶下來不要分黨派,也沒有誰做的那一段真的非常漂亮,左院長你去走一趟你會喜歡苗栗,你會幫忙苗栗好不好好,再來"},{"start":815.202,"end":842.876,"text":"台61縣縣港服務區中央地方共同民旅這是在西濱台61縣一個非常漂亮的地方我爭取了同意了以後但是到現在在推展容纏有困難那裡的漁港陳部長你是在雞皮疙瘩你很了解這裡這個你下來來看一下給他這個人潮這個漁港都很漂亮都很好"},{"start":844.162,"end":870.992,"text":"真的都是很漂亮你一來看你大概曉得因為時間的關係我大概就這樣再來最美服務機日落大道那個報告院長 部長那個整台寫兵你看到海景的時候你不小心就會發生錯誤太漂亮了但是這個所在面積太小應該在空中擴大範圍在西濱快速道路"},{"start":871.952,"end":885.988,"text":"在白沙屯的隔壁新埔的地方非常漂亮看到好尤其在落日大灶他今天的那個太陽沒有照那個夕陽西下沒有照出來很漂亮很多人在那一邊"},{"start":887.476,"end":912.342,"text":"這個我麻煩土地的問題偶爾會請苗栗縣政府去解決你將會有補助給我們補助者會變成吸收景觀非常很多人在那邊再來做觀光休閒好不好那我講在條幅講到盡頭希望苗栗縣未來不僅保持原來的傳統的智慧農業還有客鄉的文化我們更希望朝科技層整個"},{"start":914.008,"end":933.198,"text":"大溪谷的整體建設來共同發展所以我這件事要再感謝你再說大溪谷計畫裡面自然後融有一個產業科技研究再來的統銷 再來的萬利你記得你們執政黨在這海信的選票永遠是高知的"},{"start":945.489,"end":945.751,"text":"好,謝謝陳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":18,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（9時）副院長好！首先有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員早！"],["陳委員超明：卓院長早！卓院長好！我在4月25日經濟組的總質詢有問你脫中入美的議題，你講要面向太平洋、要背對著臺灣海峽、要告知中國政府──我們不走回頭路、我們不走冤枉路、我們不走錯的路；再來，你說要把臺北城當為首都的事，那時你回答不置可否。我再請教一下，這個是不是要準備臺灣獨立的一個宣告？尤其從你卓院長嘴裡面講出來的，顯示特別重要！你是不是在鋪陳這個？"],["卓院長榮泰：臺北當然是中華民國臺灣的首都，這個沒有錯！這個我們的立場都一樣……"],["陳委員超明：當然、當然，現在……"],["卓院長榮泰：第二點，我們的市場看中國看太久，我們必須轉向，面向海洋，走向世界。"],["陳委員超明：對，你等於要跟中國所有的交流（包括經濟交流）斷絕來往的意思在？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說我們的經濟要走向全世界，不能太依賴一個國家。"],["陳委員超明：好，這裡面牽涉到我第二個問題，也比較現代化的問題。今天有很多報紙說，賴總統520就職一週年，我們的內閣要換成戰鬥內閣，要找會論述的官員，準備為大罷免啟動。那大內閣會不會換？你覺得？還是……"],["卓院長榮泰：前面這一段，我們的內閣每個是在自己的工作崗位上去做競爭的，不是要跟誰……"],["陳委員超明：你現在的內閣叫做什麼內閣？告訴我，我才曉得……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就是行動創新內閣，我們是以行動來……"],["陳委員超明：以後戰鬥內閣跟你現在的內閣有什麼差別？"],["卓院長榮泰：哪一個？"],["陳委員超明：跟你現在的內閣，報紙在寫，未來你們要組成戰鬥內閣，準備要大罷免，執政黨要好好地發揮一下，要把在野黨的國會議員全部殲滅掉。我是要跟你說一項，我也覺得很奇怪，在這裡面，有幾個70歲以上的國會立法委員，身經百戰，每一個人都當過6、7、8屆的立法委員，我們真的有那麼差，你們難道真的要罷免？你們罷免要做到這樣嗎？所以我說你們真的要檢討一下，不要這麼做……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，對每一位委員……"],["陳委員超明：任職才一年而已，這裡有很多新的才任職一年而已，沒有必要這麼做，協調溝通很重要。"],["卓院長榮泰：每一位委員是經由選舉，而且是憲法賦予的權力，行政院當然尊重，所以我是希望行政院的業務跟在這裡答詢從來不涉及所謂罷免的議題。"],["陳委員超明：行政院是尊重，也沒有中立的立場，你還上臺去演講，行政中立……"],["卓院長榮泰：我講的是中央政府總預算和關稅的問題……"],["陳委員超明：臺灣如果這樣，會很亂。我要回到主題，好不好？今天的交通質詢，陳部長，麻煩你也來一下。"],["主席：請陳部長備詢。"],["陳委員超明：第一個，我說苗栗的努力值得中央支持，我為什麼要常常說這個問題？95年到112年苗栗為中央創稅4,147億，中央給我們的補助才2,022億，苗栗縣倒貼給中央是2,125億。再來，嘉義縣跟屏東縣的財政都是三級縣市，95年到112年嘉義縣幫中央創稅963億，中央補助它2,430億，他們多賺1,467億；屏東縣繳給中央2,627億，中央補助給它3,589億，他們多賺96億，我們苗栗倒虧2,125億，所以苗栗縣財政困難，我每次都在這個質詢臺拜託院長、部長，我們的交通建設要好好加油努力一下，這時候是努力的孩子沒有糖吃。所以我特別拜託你，不管財政收支劃分法未來怎麼做，我今天把苗栗的實況給你，苗栗的負債500億，這邊你再分一下，二千多億都沒有負債，我們有打拚、有努力，有為地方建設、地方繁榮發展，稅收一直在增加，交給中央越多，你的回饋反而越低，這個太不公平了，不管未來怎麼樣，我仍然希望卓院長你繼續留任，多多照顧苗栗縣。","第二個問題是有關大矽谷計畫，我希望行政院要出來協調，因為我們有兩個科學園區，一個產業園區，我們兩個科學園區開發出來大概有350公頃可用之地，但是國科會只要用150公頃，這200公頃的開發，國科會說它不是主管機關，國發會是上級指導的單位，這個拜託，今天龔秘書長也沒有來，他當過國發會主委……龔秘書長，你坐在那裡，我沒注意到你，你現在當秘書長，請你幫我協調一下，院長，你授權給他協調一下，好不好？不然我不知道你要怎麼開發、要怎麼來進行，這對我們苗栗縣未來的發展太重要了，我今天是來拜託你，我們的龔主委、龔秘書長太內行，所以來幫我協調這件事情，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告兩件事，第一個，行政院對苗栗不是善意，是應該有的基本態度，我們希望均衡地方，大家都同樣的起來，所以在我設想的財政收支劃分法，如果照行政院的構想，會讓財政弱的縣市得到很多，而不是像現在齊頭式的。第二件，桃竹苗大矽谷可以說是在520之後行政院第一個核定的六大區域產業生活區。"],["陳委員超明：對，我感謝你。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們會照這個速度持續地往前推進。"],["陳委員超明：這個沒有主管機關，不會做事情的啦！所以我特別請龔秘書長來幫我們協調一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果是六大區域產業生活區的話，它的規劃機關是國發會，但落到目的事業主管機關就會不一樣。"],["陳委員超明：我很謝謝你，重大計畫在你手裡核准，但是我苗栗縣碰到困難，我只拜託請龔秘書長來協調國科會，跟苗栗縣政府──各個部會來協調由誰當主管機關，如此才有辦法推動大矽谷計畫，完成賴總統及你們核定……卓院長留任好不好？龔秘書長，你不要坐在那裡笑，院長說好，要幫我辦一下，趕快協調一下，好不好？","再來，交通部的陳部長，你從市議員直升到交通部長，我嚇一跳，我當初還以為不怎麼樣，但是你到苗栗會勘的時候，我發覺你回答任何問題非常誠懇、非常實在，很值得肯定，我相信你經過歷練了以後將來必有大用，但是你上次會勘答應我的你要做出來，你有沒有信用就是看這裡，就是房裡交流道，你說要核定，這個拜託，我就不再多講了，我希望我的任內能把這幾個重大的建設推動完成，我就可以功成身退，我就功德圓滿，這個你有答應喔！"],["陳部長世凱：這個還在可行性研究……"],["陳委員超明：第二個是西湖溪的河堤共構，西湖鄉只有五千多人，最近兩年前才開了一間7-11，它要發展，我已經推動三期的河堤共構，第四期的河堤共構現在在進行可行性評估，拜託，院長，你說你很照顧苗栗、關心苗栗，我也謝謝你，你下來，我請你吃客家菜，把這一條道路完成來照顧偏鄉的地區，好不好？","再來，西湖鄉為什麼……選票雖然很少，但是這個地方沒有發展，我覺得我要改進地方的繁榮，爭取能在西湖服務區聯外道路新增「北入南出」的匝道，以便利遊客與鄉親，這個是屬於高公局的業務範疇，我希望高公局要特別注意，相信現在有很多工法可以把地方改變出來，當然會有所阻力，針對這建設，部長未來是很有前途的，請你好好地辦並幫忙我完成。"],["陳部長世凱：這可行性研究還在修……"],["陳委員超明：再來，有關後龍好望角的建設，那天你沒有到現場會勘，當地的鄉鎮長、議員代表及里長一直拜託你，好望角觀光風景區非常漂亮、非常好，這兩條道路一開可以把白沙屯拱天宮結合在一起，這兩個景點的距離，走路不到30分鐘，可以增加很多遊覽的人口，卓院長那麼忙，你還沒到苗栗，我記得一次，下次有來請多停留一下，來看這個美好的地方，不一定你看完後就不想當行政院長了，好山好水，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我請部長跟委員一起來規劃，我們再聯繫。"],["陳委員超明：再來，是加速拓寬銅鑼鄉到三義火車站的台13線道路，以解開地方交通瓶頸，台13線唯一只有這一段是沒有4線道，我們曉得到市區裡面會遇到很多阻力，我們陳部長有答應要協助並承諾也要馬上進行……"],["陳部長世凱：我有到現場，第一期第1標及第2標都在進行。"],["陳委員超明：這個一定要把它完成，裡面那一段我不勉強，因為在市區裡面，道路要再拓寬的話，路寬會越來越狹窄，我再跟他們討論一個辦法出來，好不好？卓院長，給你有個印象，讓你知道我們要做的事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["陳委員超明：這幾項建設實在都很重要，我不隨便提問題，但是我提問題是直接進入核心。","再來，是通霄產業生命之路，通霄鎮直通銅鑼科學園區，這兩個鄉鎮是緊鄰的，銅鑼現在一直在發展，但隔壁的通霄人口一直在流失，如果能開一條道路從銅鑼科學園區接鄰著通霄鎮，我相信對通霄鎮的就業繁榮及地方發展非常重要，這條你沒去看，我會再排一次，卓院長有去到苗栗，你們把這道路一開的話，你們的票數就會越多，我的票數應該也不會少，我們兩個互蒙其利。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：因為這個是你們的地盤，不是我的地盤，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟部長再跟委員來安排。"],["陳委員超明：這條很重要，你可能看出來、寫出來，你覺得這個好像很簡單，其實每一條都是有它的功用存在；再來，有關「Rail Bike」的建設，現在三義的舊山線鐵道自行車是臺灣最紅的，國際觀光客很多，當初是不同意的，報告院長，是我找鐵路局及觀光局協調跟溝通，把它完成下來，沒想到人山人海、人潮非常多，我們希望能跟臺中……不要為了選舉這樣啦！把地方結合起來，變成更有力，只要是在卓院長的時代完成、陳部長的時代完成，你只要談出來，不要去計較中央還是地方做的，是他做還是我做的，誰做都一樣，我永遠都保持這樣的心，所以這一條連接臺中到泰安，尤其陳部長臺中人，你把它克服下來，不要分黨派、不要在乎誰做的，那一段真的非常漂亮……"],["陳部長世凱：報告，這個程序上，臺鐵公司還在跟董事會討論。"],["陳委員超明：卓院長去走一趟，你會喜歡苗栗、你會幫忙苗栗，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["陳委員超明：再來，是「台61線苑港漁港服務區，中央地方共同努力」，這是在台61線西濱快速道路一個非常漂亮的地方，我爭取同意了，但是現在推展仍然有困難，苑港漁港在陳部長的隔壁，你很了解這裡，你下來看一下，讓它有人潮，這個漁港都很漂亮、都很好，真的都很漂亮，你來看，大概會曉得啦！因為時間的關係，我大概就講到這裡。","再來，最美服務區──日落大道，報告院長、部長，如果開到西濱，你看到海景的時候，一不小心就會發生車禍，因為太漂亮了！但是這個地方面積太小，應該再擴大範圍。這在西濱快速道路、在白沙屯隔壁的新埔，非常漂亮，尤其在日落大道，這張沒有把夕陽西下照出來，很漂亮！很多人在那邊，所以這個也麻煩，土地的問題，我會委請苗栗縣政府去解決；經費的部分，你補助我們一下，這會變成吸引很多人的景觀，很多人在那邊，然後再來做觀光休閒，好不好？我這樣說你聽得懂嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望苗栗縣未來不僅保持原來傳統的智慧農業，還有客鄉的文化，我們更希望朝科技城、整個大矽谷的整體建設來共同發展。"],["陳委員超明：所以這點我也很感謝，你說到大矽谷計畫裡面，竹南、後龍有一個產業科技園區，再來就通霄，再來就苑裡，你要記得，你們執政黨在海線的選票永遠是高出很多，都高出幾萬票。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我會跟陳部長一起努力，也請委員支持。"],["陳委員超明：再看一下啦！結束了喔？我再送給你，承諾要答應好不好？好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請黃建賓委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":218,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-10","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳超明","黃建賓","魯明哲","顏寬恒","陳玉珍","林倩綺","林沛祥","黃國昌","林國成","李昆澤","林月琴","賴士葆","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","李彥秀","楊曜","麥玉珍","廖偉翔","陳菁徽","林淑芬","馬文君","邱若華","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":117,"meetingDate":["2025-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1144201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144201_00004","1144201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第10次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1144201_00004"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}