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謝謝我想從這個"},{"start":6144.731,"end":6154.617,"text":"2021、22、23它的這幾年的稅收啊實增數啊都大於整個原來的預算數你看2021 4,427億2022 4,950億2023 3,617億實增額啊都大於原來的預算的金額"},{"start":6167.881,"end":6192.187,"text":"那我認為說今天你說這個財政紀律因為你是要超增你才會訂啊你要是今天沒有超增怎麼會去訂訂呢那我認為說怎麼做就是這個超增的部分花在刀口上那等一下我相信我們其他的委員也有提出一些不同的看法跟版本"},{"start":6193.467,"end":6214.069,"text":"那我們等一下這個等都談過以後看怎麼做對人民最有利而且也認為符合當下應該要這樣做那你要是訂了以後你就說這也不是破壞整個財政的紀律啊所以說我認為這個還是可以好好的探討怎麼做最理想以上"},{"start":6215.973,"end":6242.533,"text":"我的法案 我還說明一下 其實我的法案寫得很客氣啦這個超過 就達到120 就是超過120以上要辦理普發現金我認為是優先的 普發 我這裡沒有優先的 我是說你們用你們的錢 有一部分就普發現金普發多少 也是你們訂 行政部門訂"},{"start":6244.076,"end":6272.658,"text":"你要普發每一個人五千 每一個人一千 每一個人五百也都你們訂所以基本上來講的話 只是多一個多一個選項 你們在用用這個錢的時候 因為你差過這麼多是不是有一部分的就還給老百姓還多少也都你們訂的所以我的條文是非常寬鬆的啦沒有訂到沒有說特別強迫你們怎麼樣非常尊重行政部門的啦非常尊重行政部門的啦"},{"start":6273.985,"end":6278.108,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想這個台灣民眾黨黨團我們內部有討論過因為我們當時也正在研擬所謂的普法獻金的法案所以應該是禮拜二我們黨團的決定是說現在我們今年針對超專的部分我們已經有了特別條例的方式"},{"start":6302.923,"end":6325.465,"text":"所以我們會以特別條例為優先預算法的部分我們也討論過賴委員跟林德福委員還有紅衛的版本我們自己所提出來的所謂的超增之後的用途其實台灣民眾黨說得很清楚我們也希望說能夠照顧弱勢還有撥補相關的勞保這個比較像林德福委員的版本"},{"start":6326.306,"end":6352.201,"text":"但是內容跟金額其實都會有一點的我們精算了很多次所以到目前為止黨團還沒有共識也還沒有提出自己的版本所以我們認為說今天這個版我們可能還是會有自己的意見所以我們暫時保留就是可能目前為止我們認為說以特別條例為優先因為預算法可能沒有這麼大的急迫性那等到我們的版本出來之後我們再會提出我們的版本 以上"},{"start":6356.264,"end":6376.6,"text":"首先分成幾個部分來談預算法是什麼預算法是一個普通法它是一個原則性的法律我們在訂定法律的時候大概是三個角度來思考根據過去的經驗當下的狀況以及未來的需求所以當我們從這三個角度來思考今天預算法所提出的方向"},{"start":6377.341,"end":6401.403,"text":"就會發現說他在對於總結過去經驗所產生的結論那個各個版本的差異相當大第二他對於眼前的狀況的評估大家覺得眼前的狀況要哪個為優先有不同的意見以及這個法定定之後他因應未來的局勢有什麼樣的因應的效果我們聽到我們看到的是如果按照目前的提案方式定下去會妨礙"},{"start":6403.064,"end":6427.992,"text":"影響我們因應未來的局勢如果一個法律案的提出它過去對過去經驗的總結有不一致的結論對當下的狀況有不同的評估對於未來的局勢我們怎麼透過這個通用性的法律去引以因應有所妨礙那我們要非常的謹慎那底下呢我再就三個部分三個點來論述一下為什麼今天我們在朝野協商的時候這個法律"},{"start":6428.792,"end":6447.389,"text":"在不同政黨有這些歧義當然我首先認同剛剛民眾黨所提出來的這個預算案不是現在當優先最需要來處理的先從三個點第一個點所謂的稅收時增數超出預算數額它的意義是什麼它代表的是整年度的財政有剩餘嗎不對"},{"start":6449.54,"end":6469.763,"text":"如果按照我們所說的稅收時增額超過預算額我們就要透過法律條文的規定認為它就是我們的財政有剩餘要注意強制去做分配那未來在編列預算的時候我們只要把數字調整一下就好啦我們都估計每年的預計稅收都給它高估就好了"},{"start":6470.404,"end":6488.61,"text":"那預計稅收高估你所在得到的實徵數絕對不可能超過嘛那既然沒有超過就不會發生我們這個法律條件所生效的說要將這個當作是稅計當作是財政剩餘來做分配所以首先第一點對於所謂的稅收實徵數超過預算數額"},{"start":6491.387,"end":6509.559,"text":"這不是一個客觀可以從第三方預先判定而且可以說事後去究責的它可以透過一個一個裁判的過程讓這個事情條件永遠不會發生所以如果一個法律它所設定的發生要件是可以透過一些人為事前的操控就讓它不注意發生那這個法律條文定了就沒有意義"},{"start":6510.439,"end":6535.529,"text":"第二個我們來看一下那第二個是什麼呢?到底所謂的稅收超減的意義跟現在這個法條它要解決的問題是什麼?我們看到幾個他說要解決什麼?解決要減少債務舉措要解決照顧弱勢或易住保險基金然後呢最後跑出一個特定用途叫做普發現金首先我們看到在預算法當中對於這些事情的解決"},{"start":6536.769,"end":6563.924,"text":"債務的舉措在什麼樣的財政條件下必須優先處理債務在我們的公共債務法當中就法有明定啊你現在想要做的事情在既有的法條裡面都有規定了嘛你要減少債務那在公共債務法裡面就規定什麼情況之下你必須優先解決我們政府的債務這個無帶一個預算法當中在一個通則性的規定去互相抵觸嘛那至於說要照顧弱勢或抑制保險基金那任何的社會保險基金它都有法源的"},{"start":6564.364,"end":6592.701,"text":"那他對於這個保險基金要怎麼樣去處理他有他的規定那我們有個預算法的通則性的法律對於所有的保險基金做統一性的規定這個呢 顯有未當那再來呢 最後那當然繼續照顧入社這個問題我們就談第三點第三點 那現在這個法案所要解決的問題現實上除了法律另有規定之外其實大法另有規定之外有沒有既有的法制可以因當時的情況做當下的決定有像特別條例"},{"start":6593.621,"end":6616.398,"text":"每次我們提出特別預算重大的特別預算都是因應當前突發的或特定的事項我們要解決所以我們透過制定特別預算制定特別條例通過特別預算來去解決這個是本來就在我們預算法當中所允許我們用特別預算所以在預算法當中也對於特別條例當中特別預算的編定它使用的用途"},{"start":6616.798,"end":6642.164,"text":"也有做一些原則性的規範所以確保我們為了因應特定證物所要通過的特別條例以及因此而編列的特別預算不會去抵觸我們目前預算法當中通則性的規定所以預算法既然是一個通則性的規定也去侷限了其他相關證物所需要的法律的制定的權利的時候我們在自己的預算法當中把這樣的一個彈性跟韌性自我的設限"},{"start":6643.427,"end":6671.65,"text":"那就很奇怪嘛所以目前呢剛剛我們民眾黨黨團的黃委員提到說如果真的有需要普發現金這個事情可以討論但是這個普發現金這個事情是每年嗎每年嗎還是說預有需要的時候我們可以來提那過往的經驗告訴我們普發現金這個事情曾經發生過透過特別預算特別條例的制定透過特別預算的編列我們一樣可以達到這樣的一個效果所以我們來看一下從實證上來看"},{"start":6674.292,"end":6699.286,"text":"僅僅說稅計剩餘它只是單一年度預算執行的成果我們在第287頁我們回到這裏寫了過去的13個會計年度當中有7個年度呢是透過扣除債務還本之後的收支剩餘其他的就沒有所以表示什麼我剛才第一大部分講了三個點第一個過往的經驗總結可以得出我們認為稅收時增速超過預算數額就有代表財政剩餘嗎沒有啊"},{"start":6700.339,"end":6720.688,"text":"沒有這樣的情況啊過去的經驗告訴我們一般的情況不是啊所以在這種情況之下我們從行政機關所提出來的說明已經可以看到了那最後我要強調一點就在這個上面的說明的第六點其實納入預算法常態化去規範限定用途無法保持彈性難以因應外在環境的變化及國家施政的重點"},{"start":6721.548,"end":6737.609,"text":"這也就是我們特別條例特別預算之所以存在的原因所以我認為今天大家提案者所提出的目的其實呢是可以透過特別預算去解決何苦要用預算法的修訂讓它讓我們的整個財政失去了這樣的原理最後呢我的發言時間"},{"start":6739.164,"end":6760.039,"text":"最後還是提一下其實我們可以參考看看公司法跟證券交易法當中對於私人資本公司它有股東權益有員工福利這個其實當中對於公司的剩餘盈餘是不是要列入資本公積還是要提列準備這個都有相關的法律去做因應所以我是覺得就算是用私人的公司的財塊來看我們政府的財塊"},{"start":6762.08,"end":6784.987,"text":"其實政府的國家的財政會計更需要比一般的公司或上市會公司更需要握有能夠及時的因應國家社會的需要的這樣的一個韌性所以如果真的要比照公司法或證券交易法把特別的當年度的公司營餘怎麼樣的限定用途我是覺得這兩個法的程式是大不相同的可以一併來參酌 謝謝"},{"start":6787.057,"end":6814.007,"text":"我再補充一下喔 這個也沒有像各位講的好像洪水本受一樣啦 沒這麼嚴重啦你就某程度強迫財政部編那個預算的時候 編緊一點啦你不要忘了每一次我是稅率 我說加個一千億他說不要啦 他說只能加一百億而已啊五十億啊 他就哇哇叫結果還是超成幾千億啊某種程度就是財政紀律就是強迫你一定要編好"},{"start":6816.402,"end":6827.81,"text":"那時候開工另外一個學者講他說如果改一改就很好 改什麼經濟成長率跟稅收成長率像去年經濟成長率4% 稅收成長率8%這代表稅收真的增加很多這學者講的啊這代表你們很有問題啊你們就抓在手上啊"},{"start":6839.042,"end":6859.931,"text":"某種程度強迫你要編得準就不會發生了嘛以我的愛來講就超徵120%就永遠不會超你永遠不會發現金了嘛對不對就是那些某種程度也是個Penalty所以你亂編你一直低估我不知道為什麼要低估一定要把它編得很低是有領獎金嗎 還是怎麼樣跳高那一套編得很低很低"},{"start":6860.991,"end":6884.39,"text":"然後 喔 達成好棒喔 超出這麼多喔 好棒棒就變成這樣 強迫你編得好啊你編得好就不會發現金 這個條例就沒用了嘛但這個條例有沒有必要編呢 我覺得有必要啊這是特別條例 是特別條例的問題這是一個堅弄的東西 堅弄的是強迫你財政部在編稅率的時候 你好好去考慮經濟成長率好好去估了準"},{"start":6885.543,"end":6897.87,"text":"就很清楚看得到今年就以113年的時候他的經濟成長率4%他的稅收成長率8%這個就超收了 怎麼沒超收呢這個就超收了"},{"start":6899.099,"end":6927.304,"text":"這個就超錯了 經濟生命就這樣子 為什麼稅務資深這麼多你以為拿槍去搶錢怎麼會錢資深這麼多這時候你要發現金發多少你決定 你可以發五百每個人發五百就好了 發一千也可以啊發一點點 沒有說一定要發多少啊而且我的提案這麼輕 這麼寬鬆耶應辦理普發現金 也沒有說優先說一定要普發現金 但是一定要普發現金放在裡面"},{"start":6928.104,"end":6942.863,"text":"是這樣的一個概念啦 我覺得這樣好不好這個大家的意見都表達了 我想今天大公司不容易喔我們就把它送運會吧 好不好好 送運會吧 比較簡單啦因為大家意見不一樣嘛 我們就送運會好 送協商 送協商"}]}},{"id":"16649","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16649","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373dbec65557fcf0aacb3029e1f945e4c95214bfadd538e1bbbf129081e0dab35cd85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算解凍案49案。\n二、邀請文化部部長李遠列席就「藝文票券黃牛防制現行成效」進行專題報告並備質詢。\n(如文化部主管預算解凍案49案經各黨團簽署同意不予復議，則僅處理文化部主管預算解凍案49案。)）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-07","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-07T08:31:13+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-07T13:35:00+08:00","duration":18227,"影片長度":"05:03:47","委員發言時間":"08:31:13 - 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一 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定 議事錄確定二 國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席報告業務概況並被質詢本次議程有委員 外媒林等14人提出質詢均經國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌及相關人員及其答覆說明另有委員 林沛翔 張雅琳提出順便質詢決定 一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員所提順便質詢後相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報"},{"start":1847.336,"end":1853.499,"text":"三對議委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以順便答覆 宣讀完畢請問各位委員 議事上次會議議事錄有錯誤跟遺漏之處沒有 那我們議事錄確定那今天議程是處理114年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算解凍案49案"},{"start":1874.946,"end":1899.539,"text":"那首先我們來介紹在場的官員先介紹委員我們吳佩奕委員范雲委員好 那我們來介紹與會的官員文化部李遠部長還有徐玉君常務次長那其他司長我們就不給介紹了"},{"start":1901.38,"end":1926.993,"text":"那再來我們來介紹文策院董事長蔡嘉峻蔡董事長國家電影及視聽文化中心楚明遠董事長公共電視基金會胡元輝董事長中央社胡婉玲社長行政院主席總署公務預算處王淺凱專門委員謝謝"},{"start":1936.021,"end":1944.988,"text":"那我們現在來處理114年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算解凍書面報告案第一案至29案請宣讀"},{"start":1947.738,"end":1968.029,"text":"1.文化部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部新增決議277預算凍結書面報告請查詐案2.文化部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議6.預算凍結書面報告請查詐案3.文化部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議9.預算凍結書面報告請查詐案"},{"start":1972.091,"end":1986.881,"text":"四 文化部函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送影視及流行音樂產業局決議一預算凍結書面報告請查詐案五 文化部函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送影視及流行音樂產業"},{"start":1991.531,"end":2011.261,"text":"決議二預算凍結書面報告請查詐案六文化部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第十九款第四項決議一預算凍結書面報告案請查詐案七文化部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第十九款第六項決議一預算凍結書面報告請查詐案"},{"start":2014.502,"end":2038.499,"text":"八 文化部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第十九款第九項決議一預算凍結書面報告請查照案九 文化部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部新增決議二七八預算凍結書面報告請查照案十 文化部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議一委辦"},{"start":2040.014,"end":2053.913,"text":"委辦會預算凍結書面報告請查詐案十一文化部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送該部決議八預算凍結書面報告請查詐案十二文化部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議"},{"start":2055.214,"end":2071.909,"text":"減送該部決議時預算凍結書面報告請查詐案13 文化部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議17預算凍結書面報告請查詐案14 文化部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第19款第二項決議"},{"start":2073.77,"end":2089.774,"text":"預算凍結書面報告請查詐案15.文化部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第19款第三項決議3.預算凍結書面報告請查詐案16.文化部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第19款第5項決議1.預算凍結書面報告請查詐案"},{"start":2095.456,"end":2107.752,"text":"十七 文化部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議四 預算凍結書面報告請查詐案十八 文化部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議十六 預算凍結書面報告請查詐案"},{"start":2112.819,"end":2138,"text":"十九 文化部函為行政法人文化內容測定院一一四年度預算決議檢証決議一預算凍結書面報告請查詐案二十 文化部函為國家電影及視聽文化中心一一四年度預算決議檢証決議一預算凍結書面報告請查詐案二十一 文化部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢証該部決議二預算凍結書面報告請查詐案"},{"start":2142.003,"end":2164.955,"text":"二十二 文化部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議五綜合規劃業務預算凍結八百萬元書面報告請查詐案二十三 文化部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議七預算凍結書面報告請查詐案二十四 文化部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議十三預算凍結書面報告請查詐案"},{"start":2170.037,"end":2186.677,"text":"二十五 文化部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送該部決議十五預算凍結書面報告請查詐案二十六 文化部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送國立台灣博物館決議一預算凍結書面報告請查詐案二十七"},{"start":2187.518,"end":2209.802,"text":"文化部函 為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送國立台灣史前文化博物館決議一預算凍結書面報告請查詐案二十八 文化部函 為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送國立台灣文學館決議一預算凍結書面報告請查詐案二十九 文化部函 為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送國立台灣文學館決議二預算凍結書面報告請查詐案 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2222.615,"end":2235.303,"text":"那由於現在我們委員未足三人喔所以我們這個預算的書面解的話我們就先暫不處理那接下來我們進行討論事項我們現在請李部長進行報告時間八分鐘"},{"start":2249.828,"end":2270.24,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士各位先生大家好還有各位我們的文化部的同仁大家辛苦非常感謝大院安排我們文化部在114年度預算凍結項目提出報告加上備詢114年度文化部預算凍結項目一共49案"},{"start":2271.881,"end":2292.43,"text":"總金額34億461萬2千元我們各項報告資料已經送到大院以下就凍結的重點項目跟各位報告文化部的本部業務費凍結30%那我們業務費幾乎影響到整個文化部的包括推廣文化平權"},{"start":2293.59,"end":2311.11,"text":"推動社會營造和地方創生支持博物館的內容開發影視音的發展文創產業的活絡還有文學的發展閱讀的推廣表演藝術和視覺藝術的扶持甚至於到國際文化外交都會運用到業務費"},{"start":2313.073,"end":2335.632,"text":"這筆預算凍結的理由是文化部的黑槽計畫支持聚集淋浴攻擊我在這裡再次跟委員報告文化部所有的補助或者投資都是很嚴謹的按照相關辦法來進行由委員會在審查 一切都符合規定我們將來也會以這個精神繼續鼓勵很多元的題材的創作"},{"start":2337.281,"end":2352.75,"text":"文化資產局的業務費凍結30%這筆預算直接影響到有形和無形的文化資產各種層面我們常常要跟時間賽跑來搶救文化資產"},{"start":2354.051,"end":2371.469,"text":"尤其以台灣的地理特質經常地震颱風許多文化資產在修復一刻立刻發生不能等我們的人間國寶也是他們多半年紀都已經很大他們的知識記憶的傳承非常急迫"},{"start":2372.33,"end":2386.587,"text":"所以我們都抱著不能失傳的使命來執行這些業務還有不易移植的專法沒有通過前我們也將持續進行相關的研究做好準備加速未來審議的公告期程"},{"start":2387.768,"end":2405.888,"text":"還有影視局的業務費也被動30%現在是台灣影視因發展產業的關鍵時刻這筆預算對我們的影視因產業發展人才培育都非常重要像是金鐘獎、金曲獎、金鷹獎等等還有電影國片的推廣"},{"start":2407.61,"end":2417.042,"text":"國際專業人士的交流都會利用到這筆預算我們會持續努力推廣業務健全整個台灣影視音產業的生態系"},{"start":2419.345,"end":2442.124,"text":"傳統藝術中心的業務費被凍結30%台灣的傳統藝術是非常有辨識度的文化我們除了一直在培育人才鼓勵創作創新展演我們也致力於推廣和國際交流培養更多新興的觀眾我們會持續努力特別是向下扎根扶持兒童劇團讓台灣的傳統藝術傳承下去"},{"start":2447.711,"end":2469.005,"text":"國美館跟它所屬的業務費用也是凍結30%這筆預算影響到文化外交和在地深耕國美館作為國家級的美術館長期以來扮演和國際藝術交流的橋樑生活美學館則深耕地方就像文化部的微學館把資源送到地方"},{"start":2469.665,"end":2482.915,"text":"服務新住民、兒少、高齡等族群推動文化平權我們將持續努力深化國家藝術發展保障地方文化的禁用公益中心的業務費被凍結50%"},{"start":2486.358,"end":2512.548,"text":"台灣的工藝文化面臨人力老化在技術傳承、行銷推廣方面缺乏足夠的資源所以我們編列預算推動健全台灣工藝產業的生態系我們會持續努力吸引人才投入工藝、培養消費人口強化工藝產業的發展台灣Plus凍結了30%台灣Plus成立到現在快4年"},{"start":2514.957,"end":2534.471,"text":"他們非常努力希望把新聞和節目都做好把台灣觀點和故事傳播到全世界除了傳統方式之外現在台灣plus也利用社群媒體將內容推廣出去也跟國際合作授權節目到國外頻道播放"},{"start":2535.091,"end":2558.999,"text":"不斷開拓新的新聞主題報導加強CNN Fox News等國際媒體的露出雖然這一路上跌跌撞撞台灣Plus始終做出了一些成績漸漸獲得國際肯定他們會繼續努力製作優質的內容傳向世界公共電視凍結25%其實從國際的標準來看台灣的公共電視預算非常少"},{"start":2564.221,"end":2589.976,"text":"但是公共電視最近來的成績大家有目共睹不管是製作出非常優質的劇集節目現在公視將台灣plus納入經營甚至還增加一個兒少頻道的經營他們的任務更加重大在新聞和節目的直播上他們有一套專業的準則和程序他們會持續努力製作"},{"start":2591.363,"end":2605.89,"text":"更好的節目最後是視覺及表演藝術的策劃與發展凍結10%這筆預算直接影響到我們的表演團體視覺藝術家青年藝術家等等到國外"},{"start":2606.61,"end":2627.484,"text":"未來我們會持續努力投入視覺藝術和表演藝術的正向發展並落實公共藝術政策,營造多元豐富的藝文環境我個人在這裡要非常感謝這一年來我們的在教文會的昭偉、范雲、萬美玲還有各位委員對我們的照顧"},{"start":2628.425,"end":2643.32,"text":"其實預算在我們委員會當初只被刪減2000萬元動5億後來到了大院才會被刪到11億還有被動34億但是我們的同仁還是很努力的"},{"start":2644.641,"end":2663.995,"text":"並沒有因為這些刪除而工作更減輕反而是更加努力所以今天希望各位委員讓我們可以解凍也非常感謝你們幫忙排第一個以上檢要報告再次感謝各位委員懇請各位委員同意凍資預算謝謝大家"},{"start":2667.807,"end":2683.76,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝李部長的口頭報告那我們現在先來處理114年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算節奏書面報告案第一案至29案那我們在場委員會共同那我們現在決定均予以被查提報院會"},{"start":2684.901,"end":2708.132,"text":"好那我們現在來進行綜合詢答每位出席委員質詢六分鐘必要時延長兩分鐘立席委員質詢時間為四分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午十點三十分委員若臨時停案也請於上午十點三十分前提出並於本會委員范雲委員質詢結束後進行解凍的專案報告案及臨時提案的處理"},{"start":2713.594,"end":2718.197,"text":"處理提案時,若提案委員及連署人均不在場,原例不予處理。"},{"start":2751.85,"end":2774.808,"text":"委員好部長好進入質詢前我想首先還是要跟大家說明一下為什麼本週的議程直到禮拜一才終於正式決定那這其實就跟黨團簽預算解斷不附議同意書的進度有關那本來預期上週五就能確定各黨的同意可以同意"},{"start":2775.368,"end":2801.304,"text":"解凍案的那個不復翼那畢竟早日審查這個解凍案其實是大家的共識那民進黨當然沒有反對的理由那同時也是國民黨在本會期每次質詢都強烈要求你們要趕快送出這個解凍案的那可是在國民黨上個禮拜五下班後才簽出不復翼的同意書那"},{"start":2803.987,"end":2827.415,"text":"這個禮拜一又把不附議書抽回那直到昨天教委會才正式收到公文說他們同意不附議的同意書所以確定這個今天可以來解凍文化部的預算其實是考量到諸多的不確定性那所以本席才會用這個黃牛的專報來當預備的議程我想透過這個機會跟大家說明一下"},{"start":2831.936,"end":2848.754,"text":"文化部我們的預算解凍案49案那其中有29案就是要求提出書面報告20案是要提出專案報告那剛剛我們書面報告已經處理完畢那我們等一下來處理所謂的專案報告的部分"},{"start":2849.435,"end":2869.653,"text":"那我想total剛剛部長也有報告我們這次的解凍案的總金額是34億其中有5億2400多萬是在委員會凍結的那其他的28億8千多萬是在院會被凍結的所以其實想到這個就覺得說其實我們"},{"start":2871.397,"end":2896.634,"text":"今年度教育委員會在審查預算的時候其實我們是零案保留也就是說我們沒有一個任何的預算案是要進到協商程序那這是我們不分黨派所有教育委員會的最大的共識而且花了一整個會期努力的討論努力的這個大家研究之下的結果可是換句話說在院會被凍結將近29億的預算"},{"start":2902.597,"end":2924.566,"text":"這個本委員會同意的所以這個其實我們是覺得很當然對這個過程覺得很不滿那當然今天我們還是要呼籲一下我們一定要無條件攜手來支持這個解凍案全數可以解凍那第二點我是希望大家能考量是說文化部除了預算被凍結了34億另外我們還被刪掉11億那"},{"start":2929.008,"end":2953.789,"text":"不只文化部的宣傳費被刪掉作為第四權的公共電視喔台灣Plus也被刪了2.4億那中央社也被刪了1600萬喔所以連最基本的文化部的事務費、旅費、水電費這些行政的必要資源也都刪了5.9億所以今天處理的解凍案其實就算是委員會"},{"start":2954.85,"end":2983.997,"text":"解凍的部分我們也希望說大家能夠評估綜合評估我國這個文化預算的整體損失然後做最大程度的給予解凍因為其實也是解一時的燃眉之急而已好 那我想針對剛剛部長其實當然也有提到說在報告有提到說今天面對這樣的解凍的那個態度是不是你再請你說明一下跟所有的委員做一些呼籲關於今天的解凍案"},{"start":2987.163,"end":3010.19,"text":"謝謝委員其實我剛一直強調本來我們在我們的委員會裡只被三兩千萬然後動五億左右我本來以為這樣子一個是蠻合理的後來得到這樣一個結果那其實這個結果對我們來講影響太大譬如說我們每一個管所他的錢都用在一些像業務費這種都是一個水電清潔保全景觀等等還有"},{"start":3011.71,"end":3036.292,"text":"我們很多的錢如果在不解凍的情況下在8月之後就完全沒有辦法營運了還有一些是跟國際簽約這些合約我們也沒辦法付款其實我講一個蠻實際的就是當我們被刪以後被凍以後其實我們有些活動已經透過企業募款才能夠出去因為"},{"start":3037.62,"end":3061.698,"text":"所有的活動都從去年就開始簽約所以我們不可能等到錢下來所以我們開始跟企業募款包括在台中那場跟龐貝都的一個展覽我們也是透過企業募款所以講到這裡我就覺得說我們大家都很努力所以請求大家一定要把這個錢要給我們不然我們八月份以後真的是會停擺"},{"start":3063.072,"end":3090.088,"text":"當然啦剛剛部長有提到其實我們所有的這個所謂的文化部轄下的藝文管社也都被無差別凍結了30%那當然今天因為時間的關係我沒有辦法一一請這個藝文管社這些館長或主任上台那可是我想還是要請部長代表說明如果這30%的業務費沒有順利解凍的話那這些管社的影響部長"},{"start":3092.475,"end":3109.686,"text":"其實每一個管事他都有一定的功能譬如說有一些是保存一些很重要的史料他需要的經費還有就是他每一檔每一檔的活動都排下去如果你這個錢不給的話我們那個檔可能要縮減然後對民眾來講他會覺得我們一直在變動其實說穿了"},{"start":3114.278,"end":3128.785,"text":"文化部的預算非常的緊他每一筆錢都用在剛剛好所以而且全世界的國家都會把錢用在文化部所以為什麼我們這次文化部被砍這些錢或者動這些錢整個文化界會覺得非常"},{"start":3129.673,"end":3145.934,"text":"那個驚訝就是因為這個錢尤其是這些管所都分布在每一個縣市直接跟每一個地方上每一個人的禁用是切身關係的所以我剛才解釋了每一個管的要付的錢"},{"start":3147.296,"end":3156.182,"text":"你聽起來好像說保全 清潔什麼要那麼少錢包括薪水 很多都是我們的外部人員基本的那個維育費用啊對 這個都發不出來那我這樣講其實是真的所以希望大家給我們趕快過好 那我們再來先請教一下公共電視胡董事長"},{"start":3164.747,"end":3191.615,"text":"就公共電視跟TimePlus的預算遭刪除跟凍結的數目相加總共有十億多想要請董事長說明就少了這些預算在目前為止在目前為止就你在媒體經營上遇到什麼樣的困難跟挑戰還有就是另外就你服務與這個媒體跟學業的學界的專業也請你說明一下就什麼叫做政治與媒體互動的必據原則"},{"start":3194.864,"end":3214.649,"text":"謝謝委員的關心這一次我們在凍結的部分台灣plus大概有四億三千多萬那麼在公視小公視還有台語台的部分大概凍結了有六億三千多萬那這些比例呢事實上對我們影響是很大的"},{"start":3215.089,"end":3243.108,"text":"那以舉例來講我們幾乎所有要新開發的項目因為這樣的凍結我們都很多都已經把它暫停或者取消那對立場的業務來講其實它會構成很大的一個影響就是說我們很多的作業您知道影視的產品它是分年期在進行所以我們對於在未來要如何進行下一期的作業我們都非常謹慎所以這一塊我們要小心那有關於這個必具原則的部分謝謝委員的關心"},{"start":3245.289,"end":3264.217,"text":"因為一般運用到媒體領域最簡單的說法就是因為媒體跟政治力的關係非常密切但是因為這樣的密切所以他需要政府對於媒體有一定的尊重跟這個保障他的自由所以在這個角度上來講就好像類似我們的幣"},{"start":3265.197,"end":3291.435,"text":"手臂看起來就避懼之遙但事實上它一定要有這樣的一個距離來保持政治跟媒體之間敏感的那種微妙關係對公共電視來講尤其如此因為任何一個作業的副作用它是很微妙的所以這種政治上的避懼原則對我們來講也是全球民主國家的公共媒體都在重視的一個基本原則跟慧恩報告一下好 謝謝董事長的說明所以就是說"},{"start":3292.296,"end":3302.499,"text":"其實這個不能用政治去干涉剛剛部長在報告的時候有說不能用政治去干涉我們這個劇要怎麼樣做這個劇不能這樣做對不對這個某個程度就是我們媒體跟戲劇這個的角色是這樣"},{"start":3311.581,"end":3339.22,"text":"就是說政治跟媒體其實這個距離其實就是一個手臂的距離可是這個手臂的距離雖然不長可是它確實是有一定的距離對不對其實那個自從黨政軍退出媒體之後我個人在這些年當評審從來沒有人干預過要選哪一步或者怎樣新聞要怎麼報這點外界一直誤會我們這點做得非常好"},{"start":3340.06,"end":3368.495,"text":"就至少我個人的經驗從來沒有干預過任何一個戲任何一則新聞我實際上在最後才看到哪些戲要拍通過了我們的補助等等這點是我在這裡保證我們其實這方面從戒嚴以後解除戒嚴以後走到今天算是一個自由民主的國家所有的媒體都謹守分寸文化部也絕對謹守分寸不會去干預到跟政治意識形態等等都不會干預"},{"start":3369.455,"end":3385.971,"text":"所以因為這樣被成為凍結的理由其實我們會覺得其實是非常的不合理啦好 另外30秒的時間不好意思就是說跟部長討論的是說在台南喔這個國家美術館籌備處揭牌的那天我們包括陳承波啊"},{"start":3387.372,"end":3404.671,"text":"郭雪狐在內很多台灣的前輩藝術家的後代都有共同簽署這些前輩藝術家的作品的捐贈的這個典藏的意象那其實這是台灣人的榮幸也是台灣人的幸福喔那可是我們現在遇到一個很嚴重的問題是說就典藏空間不足"},{"start":3405.231,"end":3434.024,"text":"那新成立這個台南國家美術館的庫房其實非常的不足所以我們為了解決這個問題文化部有決定要在台南首府大學的這個退場的這個校地要興建一個聯航聯合的典藏中心那也編了一筆預算總共一億多那可是要做清洗的規劃可是這個一億多現在被全部刪掉那請問部長因為面對這些珍貴的藝術品那這個經費又被刪掉那你打算要怎麼應付"},{"start":3436.325,"end":3457.258,"text":"這點其實我們很著急因為很多很多前輩藝術家都在這幾年宣布他們願意把他的後代願意把他的父母親啊或者祖父母的精彩作品捐給我們我們必須有責任保存所以我們其實如果還沒有拿美管之前我們就不太夠"},{"start":3458.399,"end":3480.114,"text":"然後每蓋一個這個管設要非常長的時間規劃到設計到蓋那這點真的是我們心裡很著急只能去盤點現在現有的空間看能不能夠保存或者甚至於有一些還是保存在家屬那一邊他們用他們的庫房再保存我們付錢這樣子"},{"start":3481.215,"end":3488.64,"text":"好 那就期待明年再續編把這個先行規劃再把它做好好 謝謝部長 謝謝董事長 謝謝謝謝主席好 我們再來請郭育晴委員謝謝主席 有請部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":3515.267,"end":3534.68,"text":"委員你好部長早安本席現在要質詢的其實不單純是黃牛上面的一個問題而是是否有所謂的境外的中資要透過港澳的空殼公司來到台灣來主辦相關的一些藝文的活動因為這一陣子我們接收到不少的"},{"start":3535.2,"end":3550.519,"text":"相關的一些陳情喔那我們當然也會擔心像類似這樣子的一些藝文活動它會有所謂的壟斷票源規避法規甚至會破壞我們對這個文化的治理跟消費者權益一些重大的一些漏洞啦"},{"start":3551.039,"end":3570.575,"text":"那當然我們接獲到他們的成形是以近期Ling-On的這個見面會為例那他的主辦單位是超級娛樂澳門文化傳播有限公司那這個活動呢他也宣布是在5月10號禮拜六才要在台灣正式來做這個售票"},{"start":3571.155,"end":3590.422,"text":"但是目前其實在網路上我們已經看到有很多的中國相關的一些境外的平台已經在預售大量的高價的票券甚至還可以附加選位或者是加價的一個服務那這樣子的一個做法其實是完全跳過台灣的票務的系統跟管道啦"},{"start":3590.902,"end":3611.948,"text":"那我想這是不是也會讓這個文化部原本應該有的所謂的監管的這樣子的一個功能會失去這樣子的效果那講白一點就是消費者其實他沒有的選擇那也沒有辦法保障自己的一個權益那我們的藝文產業是不是也有可能被這樣子的一個境外的資本牽著鼻子走那這是我們比較擔心的"},{"start":3612.788,"end":3623.947,"text":"過去其實我們碰到一些黃牛的部分大部分是用搶票的程式搶票的程式然後再來再釋放到網路上去做這樣子的一個轉賣但目前呢"},{"start":3625.031,"end":3652.839,"text":"我們都是用這個文創法的第十條之一來處罰跟開罰但是效果當然是有但畢竟還是抓到的部分可能還是有限那以我剛剛講的這個目前5月10號即將要來做這個見面會的這個售票的這樣子的一個狀況他如果他的操作是完全發生在境外我們是根本監管不到那如果發生了所謂的消費者的一些糾紛那"},{"start":3654.899,"end":3683.589,"text":"會不會也申訴沒有任何的管道沒有任何的保障這形同這個權益喔都是真空的一個狀態那我們知道其實文化部從去年的12月開始我們就要推廣所謂的票券的實名制那也跟六都有開過會議但針對這個萬人以上的一些大型的活動來做相關的一些補助喔但如果從這一次的這個事件來看針對境外主辦繞過正規的售票甚至大規模的黃牛化的一個行為喔"},{"start":3684.389,"end":3687.913,"text":"我們文化部要怎麼正視這個問題我們怎麼補上這個缺口那將來是不是也會主動跟這個投審會還有陸委會來成立跨部門的一個集合的一個機制請教部長好 謝謝委員問這個問題因為基本上"},{"start":3702.423,"end":3712.155,"text":"這個這次的事件真的是的確在過去沒有發生過我們也展開非常清楚的去了解像那個易上有限公司他本身是在台灣負責一些活動"},{"start":3716.135,"end":3742.45,"text":"然後另外那一家超級娛樂他是一個澳門公司他負責在境外負責找一些藝人的聯絡所以我們就去找經濟部來詢問超級娛樂並沒有在台灣設立分公司或子公司也沒有辦法得到他的股權結構所以他本身在台灣是不能經營這個的那根據我們這個文創法第十條之一我們文化部所管轄的這個"},{"start":3744.605,"end":3748.789,"text":"活動是非常具體的定義在有音樂 戲劇 舞蹈"},{"start":3751.144,"end":3776.588,"text":"這些形式的表演中間發生這種黃牛事件那這些事情我想委員知道我們這些年來已經花了很大力氣在阻止這個事情所以部長的意思是說在台灣正式售票是由益尚公司來做主導那也就是說現在目前粉絲在網路上看到的境外的售票的部分是不受保障的是這意思嗎"},{"start":3778.249,"end":3799.831,"text":"應該這樣講 因為我們對於藝術公司在這邊辦這個活動見面會也好 其他會也好我們可能要呼籲網路上叫大家不要去買這個網路上販售不明票券可能會是一個詐欺之外我們還有一個社會秩序維護法可以用來作為一個消費者權益的保障"},{"start":3800.762,"end":3822.733,"text":"那至於環牛票本身的檢舉案我們會看他這個個案來處理不過委員問到這個問題我覺得的確是一個灰色地帶因為我們不知道就是剛剛我所提到的這個超級娛樂澳門文化傳播公司雖然這個藝商公司是跟我們文化部來提及這個屬於澳門就是剛剛講的這個超級娛樂"},{"start":3824.694,"end":3850.78,"text":"她雖然沒有介入到票券的一個處理她是處理藝人的部分但我們怎麼知道說藝商公司跟這間公司有沒有相關聯性在網路上來做直接黃牛就直接檯面化了啦這個部分我們是不是應該要更嚴謹的去查核然後再來剛剛有提到所謂的粉絲見面會喔或者是我們現在其實規範的其實沒有包含粉絲見面會但是這個沒有見"},{"start":3851.44,"end":3872.967,"text":"但這個其實是蠻大的一塊需要被約束 需要被查核的一塊我們的法規是不是應該文傳法要把這個類的部分的藝文的相關的表演的活動因為粉絲見面會當中其實還是會有表演的性質在裡面這個部分是不是應該之後也要與之俱進的一個來修法"},{"start":3873.929,"end":3899.641,"text":"當初我們設立文創法其實是本來是都是在鼓勵文創事業後來是因為黃流發生之後把它定在十條之一但是我剛剛有提到我們一直侷限在音樂戲劇舞蹈的正式表演那剛剛衍生出來非常多為了要吸引粉絲的見面會啊簽名會啊或者怎樣怎樣這些可能是社會秩序維護法之外我想我們"},{"start":3900.501,"end":3916.394,"text":"因為我們也擔心這些所謂的有中資背景的一些平台他們其實是會繞道來做操作等於是他們繞道做這個所謂的票券上的一個販賣的一個銷售掌控的一個操作所以這個部分這個灰色地帶我們想這個文化部可能我們還要再加把勁來杜絕"},{"start":3918.636,"end":3932.483,"text":"也就是說來保障更多的消費者的權益因為可想而知就算他是5月10號開始正式由這個藝商公司來做開賣的一個動作但可能在之前已經有很多人是在網路上用加價的方式來選位來做這樣子的一個"},{"start":3935.865,"end":3955.111,"text":"到時候如果真的產生所謂的消費者的糾紛那這個意商公司他可能講說這個不關我管啊這個其實是境外的這個公司的問題啊是你自己活該上當啊那如果這樣子的話其實在法規上的規避我們其實無法可管的一個情況之下其實就有可能會發生很多類似的糾紛這個部分我們文化部再來研議好嗎"},{"start":3956.076,"end":3962.439,"text":"沒問題我們再來去演繹像他這樣的行為好那這個時間有限我想這個最新的一個媒體報導就是川普他再次的拋出相當強硬的一個政策就主張對所謂的境外製作的一個電影要苛徵百分之百的一個關稅來保護好萊塢跟這個美國本土的一些內容的產業"},{"start":3977.105,"end":3999.415,"text":"但針對這一點我們有沒有因應的方法因為現在其實有很多的台灣的一些戲劇的一些作品或者是影音上的一個作品其實我們都是到美國去取景或者是跟美國相關的一些合作跟發行那也有很多部的戲劇或者是類似的這樣子的一個作品是跟這個ODT平台來做合作那如果說這類的作品將來也可能會面臨到這個部分的一個課稅的重稅的部分"},{"start":4004.557,"end":4020.145,"text":"我們會不會失去國際的競爭力我們有沒有因應之道其實基本上美國電影來台灣的比例遠遠高過我們台灣電影去美國的比例我們大概這五年大概只有五部電影去到美國但是未來的確會有很多國際合作"},{"start":4022.126,"end":4034.5,"text":"還有就是剛剛講OTT才是更嚴重譬如Netflix它大部分都是在國外拍那我們已經其實我們這幾天已經進行了一個重新盤點所有未來的可能因為川普講這個100%之後他"},{"start":4037.023,"end":4065.182,"text":"附帶的其他細節包括OTT或者是合拍等等他還沒有講出來但是我想我們整個文化部因為不只是在那邊拍才叫做這個作品他有可能有很多的後製有可能很多的其他的部分其實都是在那個地方做的包括動畫在台灣後製也蠻多所以剛剛委員講的這些東西我們已經在盤點各單位我們自己部門未來萬一有新的狀況發生我們有些因應之道"},{"start":4066.175,"end":4082.122,"text":"所以其實如果我們現在開始來做盤點其實也不能做個靜觀其變因為我們永遠趕不上這個川普他隨時說的這些變化所以可能要隨時都要Ready好 隨時準備好好 那今天因為時間的關係就問到這裡謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝 謝謝郭雨琴委員 部長請回我們接下來請劉淑冰委員"},{"start":4103.464,"end":4106.43,"text":"劉媛你好你好"},{"start":4115.543,"end":4137.356,"text":"想要跟部長就是溝通一個很重要的問題我們現在立法院的立法委員來這邊針對凍結預算的部分要做質詢等等的是我們的法定職權因為在立法院的在預算法當中說了立法院如果在針對審訊預算當中有一些疑義的時候是要請"},{"start":4138.857,"end":4164.517,"text":"透過凍結預算的方式請行政部門或是來做專案報告這部分是我們的法定職權是吧是當然是對所以這邊有一的部分我覺得這非常好所以有一的部分我們現在看到的是剛才我有聽到部長您提到說文化部隊公管集團都沒有下一些政治上面的指令我覺得這是非常重要的事情對吧"},{"start":4165.745,"end":4194.924,"text":"你們沒有下政治的指令就是要怎麼樣對 我們文化部針對包括中央社也好或者是剛才講的公廣集團也好我們絕對沒辦法下指令好 這樣非常好但是下面的公廣集團或是中央社有遇到有問題的情況例如說在Trump House這邊在美選的一個議題上面我知道你們有處理這就是說你們如果沒辦法透過新聞自律的問題呈現新聞自律來去達到效果的時候媒體或是立法院的監督事實上是有必要的不是嗎"},{"start":4196.185,"end":4224.474,"text":"是吧 是 沒問題那另外的包括在戲劇節目在那邊 聽海詠 公廣集團這部分 聽海詠這邊也有針對這個佛羅州的這個領事 羅領事他的夫人的事情這個史實也不同 所以在徵選的部分廠商如果是他沒有在徵選的過程當中對內容史實的部分涉及 應該做更多的偵查的時候立法委員或者是媒體這些報導事實上是很必要的 對吧"},{"start":4225.953,"end":4236.655,"text":"講到這裡我要想跟委員報告一下最近聽到的從斯卡羅到聽海湧到幾個歷史劇都是我心目中最棒的"},{"start":4237.315,"end":4260.84,"text":"我覺得這個也蠻棒的而且包括他已經拍到台灣所有戲劇裡面最高的那個境界我不太知道為什麼民間會有一些人從歷史的角度去挑剔他不是不是因為這是有涉及到史實因為這個柏油車領事但是因為我自己是做電影出身的台灣的劇集跟電影能夠拍到這樣子我們要給他拍拍手"},{"start":4261.36,"end":4287.539,"text":"這部分我可以跟郭同學我們是要讓他好上加好部長你承認吧好上加好好上加好就是包括品質嘛對 品質我是覺得不錯但是我覺得好上加好如果有史實不符的部分真的要做一個更正因為他對後面的這個他的後代或是在對外交官的這個影響是非常大的他基本上他我們只要透過小說也好電影也好創作不能夠違背史實這是很重要的原則"},{"start":4289.642,"end":4305.189,"text":"它是歷史劇不是紀錄片基本上我們講那個小說也好我們講fiction就是虛構我們一定要接受那個虛構的部分但是如果你們再不要想到說可能要必須要做一些更正這邊部分它有涉及到史實的部分那這一部分我就繼續往下去看"},{"start":4305.649,"end":4310.292,"text":"因為這是今天是解凍報告齁在台灣Plus的這部分呢我們看下去它有一個擴散國際鏈的這個規劃當中呢可以看到齁它有提到的是這個如何加強台灣Plus的影響力那我們再看下一頁可是在這裡面當中呢並沒有針對它怎麼樣去擴展國際鏈結的這樣的內容的規劃包括在地區啊騎乘人力跟法規地方因為它也涉及到說像有些國家在"},{"start":4336.31,"end":4345.216,"text":"那這些還包括喬加拿大跟英法等國那請問這個台灣PLUS這邊有針對這些的國際鏈結的未來規劃地區期程這邊有做一下事實上的內容的一個了解嗎"},{"start":4352.083,"end":4371.588,"text":"有我是不是請直接請執行長講更仔細謝謝委員報告就是主要鏈接的部分有兩種管道主要的是在傳播的方式比方說傳播我們如何讓節目新聞內容能夠到當地去落地這是一種第二種是合作製作節目比方說我們的戲劇或"},{"start":4372.908,"end":4396.27,"text":"節目或者新聞合制像現在我們一直在跟日本韓國還有馬來西亞還有這個新加坡還有在英國方面我們都開始在做接觸那因為這些都需要預算的這個進度跟對但是你沒有提出來您的這個詳細的規模在你的報告書當中因為目前沒有辦法知道預算規模所以我那個具體還沒有辦法跟人家談判如果說能夠有具體的規模的話我們這期程是抓得出來沒有問題可以報告給委員的"},{"start":4396.67,"end":4401.292,"text":"那好你就是報告委員好多分析那我們繼續再看一下同樣是台灣Plus的部分在根據立法院跟審計部的審核的這個報告當中有這個通知說應該要將KPI調整為觀看次數影音觀看時數還滿意度還有就是說APP的下載的次數那你們這部分呢卻是把剛才四項當中第四項的APP的這個次數這邊把它刪除掉而且你們存現三項的那個這些次數滿意度等等的"},{"start":4425.785,"end":4437.715,"text":"都是累計啊可是這個產生的效果是你們從大概110年就把這些這些樹木的這個累計出來可是如果你沒有算到每年度的這部分的話它的效果是不彰的啊"},{"start":4438.715,"end":4466.937,"text":"包委員每年度都有算每年度都在成長可是你們在上面並沒有呈現出來我可以把資料再補給委員沒有問題因為每年度都在成長至於那個APP它本身是因為在疫情過後全世界國際媒體的趨勢不太要用APP作為收視管道因此我們改記國際常用的觀看次數觀看時數來作為統計那觀眾滿意就是公廣集團本身在自律還有在評量本身的這個公共性來講很重要的指標所以我們就符合國際趨勢因應來做調整來報請文化部核准"},{"start":4468.44,"end":4482.371,"text":"那如果你這邊應該要說明一下跟審計部跟立法院做一個說明但我們現在知道審計部可能要再做說明那另外一部分就是黃流票的這個地方黃流票的情況我們看到的是說在"},{"start":4484.333,"end":4501.852,"text":"因為特別是這個文創法嘛這邊的所有的藝文票卷可是有一些比較大型的活動等等藝文活動當中你們甚至涉及到流行音樂的部分對不對那流行的節目可是其他的內容為什麼沒有想要幫助沒有把它納入到所謂在實名制的這個部分呢"},{"start":4503.086,"end":4526.806,"text":"一些所有表演藝術都算吧 包括那個舞蹈只要正式的演出 音樂各方面都算啊沒有沒有沒有 你們現在在因為根據這個文化創意產業這個法海關你們的各個辦法當中不是喔並沒有是只針對 只針對流行音樂我希望能夠擴展到其他的領域上面尤其是有些熱門的國際性的像"},{"start":4530.149,"end":4555.041,"text":"像有些像大型的國際的這個舞台劇或者是知名的這個部分都是希望有的但他們應該也是有問題我希望能夠您承諾是不是可以再擴展到其他大型的這種的國際性的節目的需求原來我們的文創法裡面音樂 戲劇 舞蹈都算有列入那個法裡面對 但是你的辦法目前我希望它能夠擴展可以承諾可以擴展到其他的也是屬於大型的嗎是 我們再來考慮"},{"start":4556.977,"end":4576.663,"text":"因為我們看到你們透過的這個實名制的掌握部分有補助嘛那補助發現到有34場的情況然後包括甚至有實名制不只是有人沒有透過你的補助但是在其他的自己用實名制的這個效果倒是不錯那你們在做要杜絕黃牛票的"},{"start":4577.523,"end":4592.814,"text":"這有兩種方式有的是蘿蔔就是用的補助讓他在有一些讓他可以採取實名制但有些部分是在用棍棒就是要檢舉的那我們現在看到的是說有掌握到想請問一下去年的這樣子的關於"},{"start":4593.695,"end":4608.096,"text":"沒有申請到演唱會有申請就是演唱會但是他沒有採取實名制的這一部分包括在大巨蛋還有包括小台北小巨蛋或是高雄的小巨蛋這邊部分的情況他們有些沒有採取實名制你們知道理由是什麼嗎"},{"start":4609.484,"end":4630.834,"text":"因為實名制本身它的進場手續非常麻煩我們沒有辦法強迫它用實名制所以我們除了鼓勵之外其實文化部最近做的最具體就是跟各大場館比如大巨蛋、小巨蛋、南港表演場等等希望他們用租給對方的時候就用一些折扣"},{"start":4631.634,"end":4655.119,"text":"換句話說這個部分我們做的已經比過去有進步所以願意用實名制的表演越來越多然後也越來越多的場館願意用譬如小巨蛋用八五折來鼓勵他用實名制等等那剩下的部分如果他不用實名制我們就回到用黃牛去檢舉可是那個過程說句實話是用了很多人用非常麻煩的"},{"start":4656.219,"end":4664.605,"text":"這就是我想要問的部分啦因為呢在沒有做實名制的活動當中就有八千件的檢舉就想問你剛才說人力不夠那怎麼辦呢其實八千件檢舉裡面我可以跟委員報告我們必須從裡面去找他的資料看是不是真正有這個人從開始找資料到補件"},{"start":4677.253,"end":4705.231,"text":"到去平台確定他是誰再到地方上有警察來抓抓到之後罰他多少錢之後如果他不服的話他還可以行使訴願文化部對就是說這個方法其實已經把文化部搞到非常吃力最後我們在訴願開訴願委員會我有時候覺得黃牛我們如果不從原始來杜絕的話我們快是用抓他包括地方政府也一直哀哀叫人力不夠說"},{"start":4707.132,"end":4732.2,"text":"所以我想部長你也已經發現問題了應該就是朝向鼓勵的或是說像你剛才說的那個場館的這個節目活動場地上面就是合作部分對就是這樣子的部分那希望說您繼續往這邊的部分那如果是預算在明年度的預算當中去編往這邊我想我們的我們立法委員會做支持的因為這個地方才覺得公平性這邊的一個效果存在著好那就這樣謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":4737.145,"end":4757.836,"text":"好 謝謝劉淑冰委員 部長請回接下來請吳佩奕委員謝謝主席 我請文化部部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":4764.353,"end":4777.298,"text":"吳委員你好部長好國人呢對於黃牛票的查緝都相當的關心那我想請教部長因為依照我們文創法屬於文創產業的其實至少15項15項以上相當之廣泛現在有一種樣態是很多是國外的影集或電影的演員來台灣舉辦粉絲見面會像這樣類型的見面會屬不屬於是例如他是電影或電視產業相關的"},{"start":4793.604,"end":4808.645,"text":"你認為這一點我們完全釐清剛剛我也有講到文創法裡面限制要真正的表演舞蹈戲劇還有演唱會才歸文創法所管那你剛剛講到這種說見面會拍拍照"},{"start":4811.088,"end":4830.028,"text":"或者別的方式的見面他只能算是廠商在促銷增加他的粉絲的商業行為這真的不是屬於文化部的文篆法裡面規範的他應該是社會秩序維護法這點我們對文化部來講是非常清楚而具體的"},{"start":4830.816,"end":4835.598,"text":"這個我認為像針對這種影視電影的演員他相關衍生的這些活動裡面也包括有一些是表演我認為他屬不屬於我們文創法所歸納的範疇這應該是在文化部裁量認定的範圍之內也就是說法規並沒有限制但是在我們的裁量權之內所以我認為文化部應該要跟上時代"},{"start":4858.326,"end":4869.649,"text":"這種影視演員的粉絲見面會其實它數量越來越多尤其是很多是國外的特別來到台灣舉辦這對我們來講也是我們很重要的一個文創產業所以部長你知道最近有一個個案嗎這個個案現在就出現了有民眾發現可能疑似有黃牛票這樣的行為"},{"start":4881.252,"end":4882.034,"text":"部長你認為這能不能夠來未來研議納入我們文創法規範的範圍之內"},{"start":4887.639,"end":4913.722,"text":"目前我們的進度是按照原來的文創法裡面剛剛規定的是一定要有表演過程我剛剛一直一直在強調音樂舞蹈等等要表演過程才屬於文創法但是如果剛剛委員講到那個現象我們也可以接受個案的檢舉來做判斷那至於要修文創法這件事情是知識非常體大因為我剛剛一直在強調官司把黃牛這件事情是是部長你聽清楚我剛剛講的"},{"start":4914.443,"end":4925.887,"text":"所以我認為目前其實按照既有法規我們在認定裁量上如你剛所說的依個案來看嘛它裡面如果確實有表演的活動行為我們就可以納入文創法來規範目的是什麼文創法當初的設立就是為了來能夠去防堵黃牛票對不對所以呢我希望文化部"},{"start":4935.33,"end":4942.119,"text":"可以按照現行文創法的法規更去仔細的去分析跟了解我們現在這種影視產業所衍生活動的樣態倘若是屬於我們文創法的範圍我們應當在有黃牛票一律的時候就要開始來關注部長這可不可以做到"},{"start":4954.935,"end":4973.41,"text":"環流票本身如果它是一個還是回到剛才那個三頁行為它自己有票捐的話它違反的不是我們文創法它違反的是它三頁行為我們可以接受個別檢舉在檢舉中我們再慢慢去了解這個算不算文創所以在個案的檢舉當中如果你們認定它裡面的這個活動確實屬於我們文創產業相關的母花不就可以來關注嗎是不是這個樣子如果說它跟那個"},{"start":4982.517,"end":4986.14,"text":"那我就告訴部長我希望未來這些個案你們不要說還沒有開始了解個案就直接說這不屬於文創法的範圍你必須要了解嘛 如同剛剛部長所說那了解裡面的內容再來看是不是屬於文創法的範圍倘若屬於我們範圍文化部就當然要專心好不好譬如說簽名會有沒有唱歌啊 唱一首啊 兩首啊"},{"start":5002.751,"end":5026.685,"text":"等等我們會來了解我就是這個意思所以希望文化部要更廣泛跟細節的來了解除了個案以外黃牛票的查緝文化部給我們數字今年三月底我們總共收到檢舉案件是將近一萬件那最後呢這個處於文創法管轄範圍又完備是兩千多件這個比例大概就是四分之一也就是說四件裡面有三件是不符合我們的範圍的"},{"start":5028.266,"end":5040.298,"text":"那這個不符合當中呢有很多最大宗的你們是認為說他的這個資料不完備不全這個部分我們在行政的措施上面能不能透過再來加強的宣導然後讓民眾提供完備的資料讓確實有收到黃牛票影響受害的個案他能夠有一個申訴的空間"},{"start":5053.24,"end":5067.75,"text":"你是說我們好像只能加強宣導對啊我的意思就是說我認為你們宣導不足啊就是在這一萬件裡面有這麼大量的都是因為資料不全所以根本沒有辦法申訴跟救濟"},{"start":5068.49,"end":5078.464,"text":"那這個當中有可能是可以救回來的個案有可能民眾是真的因為黃牛票而受害只是資料不全這部分我希望文化部跟我們地方政府可以再來加強好 那關於這個預算的解凍案我們今天要處理的解凍案總共有49案"},{"start":5085.214,"end":5102.248,"text":"那我覺得呢其中最嚴重的是我們當時在委員會只刪除了兩千萬凍結了五億但是跑到院會去了之後凍結立刻膨脹到了六倍刪除更是這個膨脹的數字更是達數十倍這個我認為簡直是亂山亂洞一通"},{"start":5106.258,"end":5110.502,"text":"這樣子的結果其實等於我們委員會中心主義整個心痛虛設因為我們在委員會是經過仔細的來討論的其中我舉兩個最不合理的這個公視今年被凍結5億凍結理由是因為台灣Plus"},{"start":5122.123,"end":5149.692,"text":"這個可以說是根本是走錯棚三錯筆 動錯筆太陽Plus有另外一筆預算那造成什麼的影響呢不只是公視台本身包括台語台小公視的營運一併受影響然後呢我們今年有一些新的節目新的動畫在預算解凍前到現在不敢來啟動那我們公視有很多相關的協力團隊例如跨年度的專案像什麼書畫等等這些到現在都受到影響那事實上真正"},{"start":5150.492,"end":5166.013,"text":"到院會去 這個當時提案的委員是國民黨陳玉珍委員然後後來由國民黨黨團提案 凍結事實上真正跟台灣Plaza營運有相關的是另外一筆預算嘛是發展國際數位傳播嘛這怎麼會這個理由跟預算科目根本倒不起來這我覺得非常的可惡"},{"start":5166.934,"end":5170.197,"text":"不應該出現這種錯誤那真正在這筆預算原列是10億最後呢被刪減跟凍結加走是6億多也就是有7乘57乘5都是要刪凍造成什麼影響這個台灣PLUS本來是由公司跟文化部簽約嘛到現在簽約了沒有 還沒"},{"start":5185.829,"end":5201.22,"text":"沒簽約會造成什麼影響Talent Plus不敢做新節目啊都還沒簽約怎麼去跟廠商簽約所以更不敢Talent Plus也沒有不敢去找廠商不敢簽約然後呢 這個我們每日Talent Plus總是要每日新聞常常新內容這些日常營運經費嘛結果甚至有由公視先行墊付的情況所以這個我認為立法院我們對於這個文化部預算尤其我剛舉的這兩筆我覺得最荒謬的"},{"start":5214.09,"end":5233.395,"text":"不成比例不合比例原則的煽動它造成的不是幾個數字的改變而是連日常的營運然後整個我們執行過去的這個節奏通通都受到影響今年已經過到五月了到現在今年度的計畫還沒有簽約"},{"start":5236.045,"end":5259.741,"text":"這可想而知受到的影響之大所以呢我希望台灣plus它的定位目前是我們台灣唯一對國際發聲的全英語平台我個人也因為台灣plus它有很多改進的空間但是我希望我們委員會在針對預算的動山的時候第一個理由跟預算科目至少要合一"},{"start":5260.822,"end":5276.014,"text":"怎麼會去出現理由根本跟預算科目不合的情況相當之荒謬 對不起國人對我們的期待第二個 要提出具體可改善的理由依我現在看到的情況去年對文化部這預算的動山造成的結果不是讓我們業務的進步成長反而是造成我們業務的阻礙所以我希望文化部你們也有責任未來再加強跟立法院 再加強跟國人的說明"},{"start":5288.504,"end":5296.009,"text":"在預算審查的時候就不只要跟委員說明我期待你們在預算審查的期間就可以更積極的向社會來說明為什麼文化部需要這些預算我們打算為國家台灣帶來怎麼樣的文化的進步不只跟委員說明要跟民眾說明因為他們是真正的民意不希望說之後再有已經預算被錯誤的被立法院動三之後"},{"start":5316.75,"end":5343.685,"text":"社會才開始了解到原來我們哪些的文化預算已經遭受到災難性的動山好不好委員說得非常好就是他三道的項目是不相同的那這個是非常荒謬的他去三道公共電視的所有頻道的錢你剛才講的就是真的最荒謬那我們文化部員努力的去跟所有本來對文化部"},{"start":5344.705,"end":5358.025,"text":"預算結構不太懂的民眾其實我非常努力的去解釋到底什麼是文化預算到底要怎麼用這點我們導致在這一次因為被刪減的這一次的機會 我們的確有努力對外宣導解釋"},{"start":5361.01,"end":5383.021,"text":"是那我的期待就是未來我們可以在審查的期間在委員會審查期間我們可以再積極的跟民眾來說明因為其實很多國人都相當關心我們的政府的預算到底是如何被運用他們也相當關心立委當然是要監督預算但是監督的理由要合理這是國人的標準所以我們可以更積極的向民眾來說明好不好好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":5387.005,"end":5393.367,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝吳佩奕委員 部長請回接下來請葛如君召委諮詢好 謝謝主席 有請文化部理院部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":5416.38,"end":5421.224,"text":"委員你好部長好今天非常感謝趙偉排今天的相關的議程我想我們現在因應到關稅的變局我們的匯率大幅的波動台灣有可能在這個時間點真的是變窮了所以我想我們相關的預算相關的說明我們都積極的來進行"},{"start":5436.778,"end":5455.967,"text":"那再來呢我想要請教一下部長就也跟您說明一下其實大阪萬博呢已經在4月13號開幕那上一次呢本席有質詢王實施次長當時呢有跟次長一起呼籲我們的經濟部不要忽略了我們文化部也是有出錢出力的這個我們文化部呢這一次光是勞務採購就花費了將近兩千萬大概一千九百多萬"},{"start":5460.509,"end":5474.352,"text":"這個雖然文化部呢8月才要赴日參展但是既然錢已經花了就必須要達到我們台灣的文化宣傳的效果那既然經濟部好像我們是最近都沒有看到有更多的曝光那我想也許背後是不是經濟部忘了給還是不給機會沒有關係本席希望在此給部長30秒的時間宣傳一下萬博這個大阪萬博的展覽的這樣的一個文化部的參與啦"},{"start":5486.155,"end":5491.483,"text":"是不是請部長的重點的這個部分呢簡要的向國內外的媒體朋友還有有興趣的民眾做個簡短的說明"},{"start":5494.059,"end":5518.661,"text":"那時間是在8月2號到8月20號這個範圍內在兩個場地辦然後我覺得我們很不錯就是很早就去跟日本單地的政府接觸然後有些名稱我們就用我們單地的這個日本文化中心去接觸那幾乎是動員到全台灣所有藝文的可能性表演的 音樂的 演唱會還有這個"},{"start":5521.003,"end":5536.252,"text":"繪本漫畫幾乎動員到所有台灣能夠表達台灣文化的特色那台灣文化有什麼特色呢就是我們的包容 多元 融合我們的設計的Logo是一個史萊姆那樣的東西非常可愛它隨時可以"},{"start":5539.174,"end":5561.908,"text":"變形 然後吸收別人的文化等等我預期它會效果非常好至於你剛剛講的經濟部或者外交部其實我們都有聯絡希望它是一個整個團隊在做的好 很好我想除了萬博會以外大家持續期待也希望大家民眾也都可以一起參與本席認為另外一個非常需要好好宣傳的其實就是我們的國片"},{"start":5563.149,"end":5580.341,"text":"那部長您上任至今呢一直我是沒有機會跟您談談國片政策構想還有相關的撥話那前幾天有看到您出席這個國片的宣傳造勢活動在致詞當中您有提到聽到國片起飛這四個字心中不免泛起一絲感傷因為這句話您聽了很久"},{"start":5583.383,"end":5603.166,"text":"這個甚至在20多歲的時候變投身這個電影產業希望能夠讓國片真正的起飛我身為國粉這個不是蘋果的果是國片粉其實對於這樣的一句話其實也是非常感同身受的但是我想您就任也將近一年了其實文化部的電影年報的統計數據我們去年國片的市場是大幅衰退的我想43%的衰退真的可以說是大幅近乎腰斬"},{"start":5612.248,"end":5619.235,"text":"到2024年剩下263萬人次想請教部長您對自己對提振國片的表現打幾分"},{"start":5621.138,"end":5649.606,"text":"整體來講那個大家都知道關於電影的衰退是因為OTT平台起來以後大家觀影的那個習慣改變所以整體來講國片本身的確總營業額是下降但是它佔在整個台灣的電影的比例是增加的前年大概是佔全台灣的營業額是7%去年是11%這點我當然是非常焦慮所以必須由政府提供一些投資或者是輔導"},{"start":5651.347,"end":5670.419,"text":"讓這個產業不能夠消失沒錯我想不能說OTT這樣子我們就放手因為確實您講的這個結果也很棒占比是增加的但是我們還是要有中長期的規劃我們不要被這個短期的狀況打亂正腳那我們本席有向文化部所知想要了解部長對於我國片發展的中長程規劃到底是什麼"},{"start":5672.301,"end":5685.481,"text":"結果文化部的同仁是用一面A4紙拿來給我們做一個回應部長您可以看一下我不確定這份A4你有沒有看過這是我們的國片起飛的中長程規劃嗎"},{"start":5687.364,"end":5708.022,"text":"事實上我們其實非常驚訝裡面呢這個一共只有407個字我想您是電影人用這樣的一個方式來帶領國片起飛這會不會變成在您的任內變成口號我相信不會我是您的忠實影迷我剛剛也說了我是國粉我們不希望這種態度去影響我們的國片發展"},{"start":5708.763,"end":5729.802,"text":"文化部會後能不能提供一份完整的部長對於台灣國片發展的中長期規劃我相信你們有可不可以提供給本席辦公室不然這個407個字說是我們國片中長期規劃我覺得有點太精華了齁這個沒問題啊因為我們這個七點是一個大概的每一個項目我們有非常仔細的那個"},{"start":5731.3,"end":5759.061,"text":"甚至於輔導政策的調整那為什麼我們問的時候不能提供完整的不是 它太多了它項目太多我們很有時間閱讀因為這是我們的工作好不好請文化部同仁一起配合我事後把它提供我想接下來關稅的議題大家也很關心我想我們這一次的談判代表團帶隊的是鄭麗君副院長她過去也是前文化部的部長我們想要請教一下部長有沒有參與行政院對美關稅談判小組"},{"start":5761.446,"end":5779.151,"text":"這個部分真的是沒有因為文化產業在目前這一波裡面並沒有被列入但是因為最近因為川普的一句話我們就超前部署各部門已經開始討論未來有可能包括電影100%的這種進入美國等等這些我們就開始做一些預備"},{"start":5780.191,"end":5793.242,"text":"沒錯我想部長您應該也可以發現台灣對美國來講可以說是一個不折不扣的電影入超大國我們也幫忙整理了美國電影在台灣上映的情況這個數字琳瑯滿目2025年光第一季四分之一就99部收入也不錯美國說他們都沒有賺我們的錢我們賺他很多錢他賺我們很多錢在數位的在文化上面"},{"start":5806.893,"end":5822.963,"text":"結果呢我們台灣根本沒有賣過去我先講我要給這幾部賣到美國的拍拍手謝謝文化部支持但是我們今年還是目前為止掛鈴的但是這些數據都可以幫助我們的行政院在跟美國關稅談判的時候去講說我們台灣買你很多東西啊你買了你的文化啊"},{"start":5827.586,"end":5834.711,"text":"買了你的內容啊不僅如此啦我們就發現我們這一次的特別條例我們的執行部會裡面完全沒有文化部4100億裡面完全沒有文化部難道我們的關稅變局我們的匯率的這個波動就不會影響到文化人嗎就不會影響到文化產業嗎我想我作為一個再講一次我作為一個國粉我作為一個關心台灣文化的人我相信我們都很關心我想要請教一下"},{"start":5856.824,"end":5863.108,"text":"這個相關的這個特別條例我們能不能列入進去能不能爭取一下然後我們現在又看到有這個川普的這個電影稅要進來了我們中長期的發展裡面有一大堆都提到了這個拓展國外的"},{"start":5872.674,"end":5884.379,"text":"海外市場這個跨國合資合智全部都是在走這個路線啊那所以現在川普這件事情假設成真我們中長期規劃可能還要修改因為他來台灣做反而變貴了我們去跟他合作他可能不願意全部連電影都要美國製造了所以文化可能會遇到所有跟科技業電子業一樣的問題有沒有要做調整能不能去爭取一下列入特別條例"},{"start":5899.144,"end":5925.634,"text":"其實你講到這一點它這個真的會影響到我們整個產業2001年WTO美國電影全面進台灣的時候我們國片甚至於跌到佔全部電影的0.3%連1%都不到2001年WTO2003年的時候我們已經跌到1%都不到國片甚至於已經被消滅到2011年的時候"},{"start":5927.715,"end":5941.846,"text":"國變整個又復甦 佔百分之十六所以我在這裡要替台灣的電影人講話就是我們完全靠自己努力的突破這個所以您剛才講的是講到我的心裡的要害就是文化產業"},{"start":5943.067,"end":5953.778,"text":"並沒有被列入第一波所以我剛剛已經講到我們超前部署我們其實開過很多會就是開始把未來有可能跟美國之間涉及到這樣子的文創產業的一些可能發生的狀況更了解"},{"start":5958.562,"end":5982.555,"text":"上次我幫王十四次長向經濟部喊話不要忽略我們文化部我們幫你們向行政院卓院長喊話不要忽略我們文化部不要忽略文化為什麼因為這張圖我幫你整理了我們現在電子業科技業我們的實體貿易的第一大的對象是中國大陸第二大是美洲美國文化的情況一模一樣我們的電影的產業海外收入來源一樣"},{"start":5983.115,"end":5992.918,"text":"第一大是我們的中國大陸第二大就是美洲所以如果美國在關稅或全世界關稅有這個變動的時候我們的文化產業是會有變化的我們一起努力最後一個地方也還是要再請教一下部長最後一塊主題就是我們的主權AI我先非常謝謝文化部之前我們質詢說YouTube繁體中文出不來相信應該是文化部有去幫忙溝通一下現在修復了"},{"start":6010.883,"end":6036.33,"text":"雖然上不完美但持續改進真的非常的感謝但是我想現在的大語言模型AI的工具都有簡體中文覆蓋的問題因為他們讀了十倍甚至百倍以上的簡體資料我們凡中資料不足我在總質詢在許多部會都提到我們應該要有國家層級的AI訓練資料庫那速發部呢有著手在訂定所謂的台灣語料訓練資料庫的授權條款我想請教第一點"},{"start":6040.131,"end":6058.959,"text":"這個部長贊不贊同有這樣的一個AI訓練資料的資料庫贊成啊太好了那我想問速發部在著手制定這個台灣語料的訓練資料庫有沒有跟您徵詢文化部的意見有 而且我們已經開始進行整理文化部的東西其實非常多"},{"start":6059.959,"end":6080.775,"text":"我們其實還看到有一個寶庫叫做中央社其實中央社社長有跟我們來溝通說他有非常多的語料資料歷史的內容可是我們最近看到中央社的方向好像有點多頭馬車好像一下又說要做電視台一下又要做文化內容我想請教文化部部長中央社的定位到底要是什麼"},{"start":6081.909,"end":6099.544,"text":"中央社會作為一個歷史悠久的媒體它有兩個很重要的任務一個任務就是它本身的資料保存是非常完整的所以你剛才講到AI這個部分它的確是深負重任第二個它是代表國家的媒體它必須向國外發聲"},{"start":6102.503,"end":6128.531,"text":"國外的駐點 然後國外宣揚台灣的所有狀態所以中央社責任是蠻重大所以它到底是文字媒體 還是網路媒體它現在YouTube也做 還是電視台它現在好像說要做中央社電視台這個都太分散了 會不會力量不集中根據我了解 以前中央社就有做一部分YouTube大概是因為 目前大家在瀏覽的情況下還是很習慣看這種影音的"},{"start":6129.031,"end":6150.371,"text":"他只要不再違反我們本身中央社原來做的事情的話這個部分我不知道結果會如何但是我一再跟你跟委員強調中央社它最大的任務就這兩個嘛好 這個朝偉已經站起來了希望我們能夠一起加速國家級AI訓練資料庫的設立我希望文化部持續有跟速發部來交流"},{"start":6150.771,"end":6160.379,"text":"希望把交流結果三個月內以書面提供給本席我們真的非常關心最後提醒部長啦我們的公眾的錢好像下一頁不見了沒關係我們公眾的錢呢就是應該要給公眾公眾的錢公眾的知識我們的相關的資料歷史的內容文化的內容我們希望讓AI來訓練讓全世界的AI都有台灣語料台灣資料"},{"start":6175.872,"end":6191.242,"text":"當然也才會有台灣價值我們的主權才能夠確立這樣可以嗎是 文化主權應該是我們文化部最重要的一個任務讓台灣有文化主權的方式就是您剛才講的AI的內容這點我非常同意我們也會努力做謝謝 謝謝昭偉 謝謝部長謝謝葛如君昭偉 部長請回接下來請柯志恩委員"},{"start":6207.267,"end":6236.69,"text":"好谢谢我们请部长好有请部长柯委员你好部长好刚刚听到葛卫军委员问你有关中央社的问题显然中央社目前新任社长的一些未来的一个走向跟你当初刚刚所回应有关于中央社的终止跟目标是有一点点的落差不过这个部分我们等一下在审预算的时候在解冻案的时候我们再一一来做讨教"},{"start":6237.33,"end":6257.122,"text":"在没有进入我们这个解冻案之前我先用一个比较大的方向来请教部长我们看一下这个数据政府的文化支出各位部长你知道吗在十年当中实际上是增加一百亿的这个数据可以显示出来但是呢比较可惜的是占政府的总预算的比率是比较小的"},{"start":6257.642,"end":6273.706,"text":"是略降的所以说表示我们对文化这一块来说显然这十年来中政府的看重度不如我们所看到的接下来我们再来看一个而且通常来说文化部的预算很多是在作为奖补助的我们看一下从2013年56亿"},{"start":6276.787,"end":6280.048,"text":"到2024年可以增加到193亿它的征服是244%膨胀大概是3.45%我想部长看到这个你可以说因为很多的人事成本还有很多的技术都会膨胀这没有问题但是呢膨胀到3.45倍很显然我们的补助是逐年在增加的"},{"start":6299.375,"end":6318.414,"text":"好那既然在逐年增加当中我们就要问了我们要问的就是说这么一个大量的补助到底成效会在什么地方那我们就从很多不同的面向可以一一来去看部长可以给你看到近五年来我们休闲文化跟教育的支出大概是占家庭消费支出比率是下降的"},{"start":6318.934,"end":6329.297,"text":"也就是大家即使我們花了這麼多錢來做一些補助來做一些獎勵但是大家因為很多不同的因素我們對於這樣的一個開銷是下降的我們再往下更清楚了電影的參與率我們從2016年基本上是47%那中間當然是經過新冠肺炎的關係可是到現在大概是35.3%"},{"start":6341.32,"end":6363.44,"text":"所以这个身为电影人的小野部长你应该看得也非常的有感慨吧那川普对于这个好莱坞他前天特别提到了因为好莱坞的电影太多的因素了让他们的这个编剧啊一些工作人员大概是有两万多个人失业所以他提出了一个方法就是百分之百扣关税只要进到美国不是美国产的他就给你扣你建议这种方法在台湾吗"},{"start":6365.151,"end":6368.854,"text":"有機會嗎我們會不會這樣做嗎對啊我們去抵制好萊塢嗎沒有我是說川普就是大盜議會當然部長我也相信你不會做出這樣的建議我只是說川普為了救美國的電影產業對於國外進口美國的進入美國他做100%的一個關稅上面這樣的提告你說我贊不贊成是啊對啊"},{"start":6386.866,"end":6411.04,"text":"那可能川普不太懂電影因為電影本來是一個非常多元什麼這句話你不要讓他聽到因為你現在還在關稅時間來這個電影參與率然後往下他的確不太懂電影所以他才會做出這樣的一個說法你比他懂很多但是你看一下我們的文化參與率給了這麼多的補助除了視覺藝術比較調升之外你看其他的部分都是下滑再往下看"},{"start":6412,"end":6430.839,"text":"更不要说我们国外的艺文团体或是个人来我们这个十年当中场次大概少了一万多场再往下看我们的文化展演真的不管是场地少人口稍微增加一点点但是呢每百万民众享受的文化展演我们确实从189个变到154个"},{"start":6434.182,"end":6458.938,"text":"所以部长我这样子不断的这样子然后我们再往下看我们参加影展的补助你当然人次是增加了然后我们入选的也是增加了但是真正获奖的是下降了当然你也会告诉我就说因为获奖不代表什么只要能够入围就是得奖但是我还是要提出来我们有的这么多的补助这些是成效上面我们可以用一些数据来做一个佐证的"},{"start":6459.378,"end":6472.534,"text":"所以我们就要问这么久以来十年来到底我们的文化有了这么多的部分里面你身为一个文化部长你可不可以用很简单的方法你对于我们文化涵养的一个提升这十年来有所增加吗部长"},{"start":6475.177,"end":6501.95,"text":"我如果有文化涵養這個字眼我覺得我沒辦法回答你但是我沒辦法回答你是我們到底台灣的文化大家水準有變高這我沒辦法回答但是對於文化部來講努力要做的就是反而是就這個部分能不能提高民眾的參與文化的活動包括我們剛才講到我們有文化幣來鼓勵民眾去看表演我們有青年席次類似這種的"},{"start":6503.07,"end":6523.92,"text":"我们希望因为我给我给予的是2023年我希望到2024到2025年开始有文化币开始有很多你的政策特别是你在身份文化部长我希望这个人次还有这个季节可以增加因为这是代表一个我们的努力可以让民众更多的公众的参与但目前为止过去十年钱多了"},{"start":6524.6,"end":6543.332,"text":"但是呢显然参与度是逐年下降这才是一个我们需要去做很大的警讯的接下来我们要请教一下公示第七届董事长5月19号就要届满了但是呢像目前为止你的这个审查委员很早就出来了请问什么时候这个新的董建市名单会出来"},{"start":6545.645,"end":6567.245,"text":"委員問到一個 給我一點時間就是半年前我們就開始做這件事情 按照規定然後我們列出來的名單 希望它能夠被大家接受大家指的就是文化界 還有審查層接受所以我名單其實經過行政院同意之後 開始一一去邀約"},{"start":6568.686,"end":6587.997,"text":"在這裡我要跟你講一個我很心酸的心情就是本來所有人接到電話應該是高高興興可以當到這個董監事對不對委員你也知道還好啦沒有人很高興啦因為這都是一個非常辛苦的一個工作那現在目前結果是怎麼樣結果就是我要不到人啊"},{"start":6589.597,"end":6614.931,"text":"你現在邀不到人是不是我一個一個電話打去他家裡談理由是什麼理由就是他不一定會被選上啊如果我電話打去他就是的話我想我就一個禮拜內就把這個團湊起來所以很多人不願意這樣部分是因為他不見得會選上可能因為我們現在的審查委員會裡面有不同的意見非打電話然後再經過這樣子把名單都放出來然後自己的名字在委員會裡面互相來這樣去做處理的時候"},{"start":6617.812,"end":6625.556,"text":"為什麼他要是社會上很有名望的人為什麼要把名字排在上面那你怎麼辦呢因為我還是要提醒那現在怎麼辦我當然怎麼辦我就是一直求啊那你求到什麼時候我還是要提醒喔請放心5月19號就要接滿了對啊我現在只差一兩個啦"},{"start":6633.7,"end":6657.069,"text":"你現在差一兩個我求到現在為止你不曉得我多麼辛苦的去拜託他們說好那我們就來看一下吧因為我還是要提醒啊因為第七屆五月五號的時候公布五月九號就開審查會很短的時間而且你第一次審查沒通過你還有第二次到第三次每天就對這些人來說就像零吃一樣問題是過去就審查過好幾年啊是啦是啦"},{"start":6657.629,"end":6684.475,"text":"那个是多么羞辱的我多么期望这一次我们两党之间的派出来的议员让我一次就过所以呢我还是要提醒呢5月9号5月19号就马上如果没有的话我们真的有些时候不知道你有这么多努力还好利用这个时间让你讲出我的心酸事否则我们都会认为过了5月19号是不是要让原邦人马再继续来演任这个东西对很多人来说对公事来说公事上来这个董建士名单一向都是一个非常困难难产的是"},{"start":6686.396,"end":6691.718,"text":"這個層面啦所以你保證就是應該在5月19號之前應該會有個明朗的一個結果就對了只差一兩個而且我在這裡懇求所有的審議委員不要像過去一樣一直羞辱的方式去刪掉一些人那些人實在是很糗因為這些人都是社會很有名望的人"},{"start":6705.646,"end":6711.228,"text":"跟這個評審委員已經不斷在呼籲了我們很快再來提到那上次我有提到華氏為了要出租進行這個整裝那我真的是覺得目前來說是搞個大罷免那華氏在搞大搬遷為什麼我特別提出來因為大樓整裝必須要有試裝的許可但是因為台中星光三月的事件所以說引發很多人就需要有嚴格的再來審查但是這一次華氏被檢舉了"},{"start":6731.613,"end":6746.608,"text":"因为他们认为对照原始的设计图累积加罚的话可能会受到一个罚款这些还不包括华氏大楼的六七八楼为了要对外租赁然后开始要隔间所以说预估总经费要七八百万"},{"start":6748.15,"end":6765.767,"text":"这个部长我觉得这有点本末倒置的我们应该关心的应该是你的新闻你的节目制作等等那你现在又是搞租赁我相信胡董事长应该非常的辛苦了他为了要让华视起死回生他用了非常多的方法我相信你要租赁也是要减少华视的这样的亏损的我同意应该是这样子对不对"},{"start":6766.468,"end":6770.05,"text":"好然後我接下來把問完你可以移平來部分然後呢你看這一下來花費來說的話租金到底可以回到多少你這整個部分裡面來說到底真的對華市的虧損到底有沒有任何的幫助我還是要說第一季6800萬"},{"start":6781.838,"end":6798.343,"text":"这一年要到2.5左右亏损的原因到底什么时候可以来止血接下来很快因为等一下跟我们的东西有关然后呢我们也知道华氏不仅是为了要减损亏损了不仅有的新创公司有的租赁部分我现在只提出一个因为等一下我们马上就要解冻"},{"start":6798.883,"end":6819.455,"text":"你们所给我的这个部分当中呢对于新创公司上次我们花了很多时间来讨论但是呢你们虽然给我一些资料但是我还是要请求部长我先请问你我请公事提供新创公司未来三年的现金流量的预估风险管理的机制投资管理办法你觉得这合理吧提供这些应该合理吧"},{"start":6821.141,"end":6850.461,"text":"因為目前還沒有通過所以他沒有辦法寫出這個東西吧怎麼可能你要預估你成立一個公司你只要告訴我未來三年怎麼可以說沒有辦法這是一個預估雖然星創公司是華資投資51%公視49%但是公視占華視的股權83%所以不是只有你表象上裡面只有49%我覺得對一個星創公司來對一個公司的部分這個星創公司我覺得要求這些東西來做不是不解凍但是解凍要有前提就是我要看到這個"},{"start":6851.401,"end":6866.96,"text":"一個比較是可以讓我們覺得未來不要再困屬下去所以我只問部長合不合理嗎提供這些合不合理嗎應該他董事會都還沒有通過這個案子董事會還沒有通過但是你要跟我們講這個東西我們現在目前是凍結的"},{"start":6868.289,"end":6887.561,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個案子基本上來講是華氏的部分通過公視 您監理的是公視公視董事會還沒有通過而且公視董事會並沒有放在預算裡面所以你這個部分目前為止來說可是目前這是在我們的解凍案當中他沒有放在預算裡面"},{"start":6887.961,"end":6903.758,"text":"所以说呢这个部分里面好那我们现在只能说如果是这个东西提供的话如果要让这个部分来提供的话我必须要看到这三个我才有办法让这个新创公司的未来的一个发展我才有一个依据才可以有办法做一个讨论我觉得这个东西是算合理吧可以吧"},{"start":6905.467,"end":6932.337,"text":"我们接下来还有一个还有一个就是有关台湾Plus那个主席我知道后面来说的话我还是强调台湾Plus有很多人有意见等一下我们解动案也会稍微看到一些项目要合理完全同意因为我们在委员会里面对这个东西做了非常多的一个讨论我只说很多员工的爆料还有我们说看到的一些我死死的问题我必须很遗憾的说没有人在事后来跟我"},{"start":6933.397,"end":6959.003,"text":"報告這些狀況 到底處理的狀況是怎麼樣面對這樣子等下的解凍案我希望利用空檔的時間可以讓我多了解我們可以節省彼此的時間這一點應該是台灣Plus或是公視可以做到的 對不對好 感謝好 謝謝柯之恩委員部長請回我們在陳秀寶委員質詢後休息五分鐘好 我們接下來請伍麗華委員"},{"start":6966.389,"end":6966.71,"text":"好 有請部長"},{"start":6977.11,"end":7003.61,"text":"委員你好部長早部長在我們台灣原住民有一種文化叫做靈媒文化或者巫師文化我想你都很清楚那我要跟你講一個故事在過去我們有推動太空發展法那在這個法三讀通過之前呢也有在屏東旭海那邊三攝屏"},{"start":7004.691,"end":7031.409,"text":"有去做一個科研火箭的發射場域那當時呢2022年的7月我們在等待第一枚科研火箭升空那當時叫做科技部長錢瞻師長還有邀請很多人我們就在那個地方借了早上6點到8點的空域要等待那枚科研火箭發射"},{"start":7032.37,"end":7048.219,"text":"第一次我們從凌晨四點等到八點升空失敗就解散第二次的時候部長沒有來剩下前瞻司長我們也是從凌晨一直等到早上八點失敗就解散"},{"start":7049.119,"end":7075.355,"text":"那那個時候我就忍不住我就跟這個太空中心主任吳宗慶阿伯講說其實你們來到原住民的傳統領域應該要做一個敬天拜地這樣的一個祭儀其實這邊就有所謂的布林奧我說要不要試試看至少來到這個地方總要跟這邊的土地拜一下嘛"},{"start":7076.135,"end":7090.298,"text":"那他欣然接受所以第三次也就是七月十號的時候我們請到這一位張順之夫夫他就在五點多開始準備就在那邊敬天拜地好"},{"start":7092.628,"end":7117.579,"text":"6點12分一次升空那吳宗信 太空宗信阿伯他說飛得非常漂亮那我其實不是要在這個地方要告訴大家林美友多厲害我不是要在這邊怪力亂神而是說其實在原住民這樣的一個文化很珍貴但是視為卻很重要"},{"start":7118.659,"end":7140.355,"text":"到了2023年 我給您看第二個例子因為為了迎接去年2024是牡丹社事件的150週年為了迎接這個150週年 我協助園民會我們在愛丁堡大學有發現牡丹社事件的遺骨"},{"start":7141.135,"end":7153.98,"text":"那也在那個地方交涉他們也欣然的願意把這個遺骨返還所以呢去迎接的過程中你看這個照片中是我們牡丹社他們的頭目跟他們的靈媒"},{"start":7157.662,"end":7176.771,"text":"在那個地方做記憶當時這個愛丁堡大學的這位捷捧學主任他在旁邊觀禮這個Gillingwater他說這是很動人的經驗我可以感受到儀式對在場的所有人員而言有多麼的重要"},{"start":7177.991,"end":7198.782,"text":"那現在在屏東4月22到10月26呢 終於其實我們很多人一直在談這件事情我們怎麼樣去重視這一些靈媒所以終於在今年周春米縣長他有在屏東 屏煙那個地方辦了一個靈媒與他們的產地的一個特展"},{"start":7204.585,"end":7217.575,"text":"現場這一些就是碩果僅存的這一些靈媒那這個其實比起十年前是多的為什麼因為這一些年有很多年輕的靈媒"},{"start":7218.996,"end":7237.204,"text":"他因為具備有這樣的傳統身份他們很多是放棄工作像我以前在園民處我的一個同仁他就放棄工作因為他覺得一直在召喚他回去要接這個工作所以他就毅然決然的回去投入靈媒文化"},{"start":7238.28,"end":7258.448,"text":"所以在這邊我其實要講的是文化資產文化資產這一塊很重要那我們也看到這一些年我們一些文化保存者像去年正是新聞有一個阿美族的巫師記憶保存者叫阿比他在去年的七月過世"},{"start":7259.833,"end":7277.26,"text":"享年86歲那去年年底12月呢也有一個阿美族的巫師的一個保存者叫做Iba Agus 96歲過世一個一個凋零我們很擔心的就是說這樣的文化就要結束了嗎"},{"start":7278.345,"end":7293.538,"text":"有沒有年輕人願意接但是我們看到這樣的保存者其實不容易很困難雖然剛才屏東我們看到出現這麼多的靈媒在那個地方但是有做文化保存的是零 沒有"},{"start":7295.56,"end":7309.271,"text":"那為什麼 因為他們這個工作其實很重要像是我們所有的祭典其實都會想要請到靈媒出來去做一個祭儀他就很像現在我們也會在後面補一個宗教的禱告祈福是一樣的一個意思對傳統祭典 傳統醫療 心理的輔導等等"},{"start":7317.157,"end":7332.406,"text":"那在這裡他的文資身份就很困難因為他必須要跟著人才能夠被保存但是有一些東西像這個記詞它是古文言文其實我們一般人也根本聽不懂"},{"start":7333.166,"end":7356.702,"text":"那對於這些學習的學生來講他們也覺得很困難因為他們可能要用錄音的方式一直聽 一直背 一直問所以他們現在面臨的困難非常的多所以很難被認定文字身份那為什麼我們現在很在意文字身份因為政府會給予一些資源例如會有師徒制 給予徒弟那這樣子呢 對一些"},{"start":7357.603,"end":7367.753,"text":"把工作辭掉的人來講他就會增加他的誘因投入這樣的一個文化傳承我也看到去年監察院的教育文化委員會他們也有針對我們很多的族人給予這樣的一個陳情去做了這樣的一個建議報告"},{"start":7377.122,"end":7398.273,"text":"他們是希望說文化部跟園民會可以來討論原化保存的具體合作機制建立文資保存跟傳統智慧保護的一個整合平台所以這個部分我想問一下就是部長您對這個有沒有收到這樣的一個相關訊息那我們有沒有做什麼樣的一個回應跟預備"},{"start":7399.471,"end":7414.142,"text":"有就是屏東縣政府已經有送來一個案子一個研究計畫在5月會提送我們來申請委員剛剛講那個東西我個人是蠻感動因為無形文化資產尤其是剛剛講那個林美其實在"},{"start":7415.163,"end":7430.007,"text":"電影也好 小說也好已經開始被很多作家來開始描述但是因為我們鑑定無形無法資產的時候會組織一個專家學者那我覺得我們可能要打破這樣一個制度因為了解的人太少"},{"start":7430.527,"end":7455.129,"text":"包括剛才講的那個記文等等那文化部很願意來努力來研究這個部分看能不能來保存它我個人是覺得台灣最珍貴的都在這些信仰然後尤其是快要已經失傳的這些東西我覺得我會 我們來努力謝謝部長肯定積極的一個態度回覆那其實我在解凍報告當中也有看到"},{"start":7456.09,"end":7473.891,"text":"文資補查機制那你們也有提到說鼓勵優先提報補查的補助計畫我覺得這很好因為追根究柢地方政府他基於人力不足或專業不足其實他們要完成這件事情是很困難的那我常常講"},{"start":7474.992,"end":7483.44,"text":"我們地方的這些擁有文化智慧知識的這些人他不見得懂得行政機關的遊戲規則對他們來講很困難所以應該是由政府來主動積極的去找到他們協助他們那我希望說這樣的一個補助計畫能夠多加的宣傳推廣"},{"start":7495.471,"end":7513.922,"text":"讓需要的人可以用得到那您剛才有提到啊像這個全世界最多人看的哈利波特就是一個西方的一個巫師學校他是很被推崇的很吸引人的那我覺得在這個當中他們是跟我講啦我們也可不可以有巫師學校啦"},{"start":7514.588,"end":7539.268,"text":"他們說 委員 那個那麼好我們一樣是在傳承語言文化可是現在政府那個教主語的都有給他們什麼主語專職教師縣政府 地方政府 相公所的語言推動組織人員都有給他們薪水那為什麼我們這種這麼稀罕稀有的文化保存為什麼文化部可以比照嘛"},{"start":7540.109,"end":7550.851,"text":"給我們一個老師嘛 讓老師 至少老師有收入他就可以教學生我不知道部長您對於這樣的地方的聲音 您有什麼看法"},{"start":7551.813,"end":7579.125,"text":"這點我是不是請我們那個文資局局長來回答因為這個蠻具體的比如說我們要一個無私學校類似這樣的我想請他來回答好 謝謝委員剛才提到這個林梅這個案子我想第一個就是我們希望他有文化資產身份那現在屏東縣政府現在會做先期調查研究我們會輔導有一些個案像南排灣族的林梅這個案子他上次提來有一些還要再修正再送來我們讓他有文資身份之後我們會補助他做所謂的保存維護計畫"},{"start":7580.145,"end":7592.279,"text":"那可不可以快 多這個我想我們可以跟屏東縣政府我們很痛苦的就是文資保存我們都覺得慢少"},{"start":7593.787,"end":7613.4,"text":"我們會加速主動跟屏東縣政府來積極聯繫我是覺得如果真的沒有辦法快多就倒不如就推一個政策就像我們現在很多的主語推動的政策也有語推人員也有主語專職教師他其實也可以用政策來推動"},{"start":7614.741,"end":7631.655,"text":"那我請局長跟部長來思考看看好不好那以上的這些問題我是希望說也能夠再到辦公室跟我做一個說明可以嗎可以沒問題好謝謝部長也謝謝主席好謝謝吳麗華委員部長請回接下來請陳秀寶委員"},{"start":7641.257,"end":7644.82,"text":"謝主席 請文化部李海部長好 有請李部長陳委員你好部長好 在本席質詢之前呢針對我們這些又多又繁雜的這是近乎是刁難的解凍報告呢本席這邊要先肯認文化部同仁進行來撰寫解凍報告因為其實文化部的預算呢在我們"},{"start":7669.42,"end":7687.26,"text":"委員會的山洞之外呢還有被大會山洞的還有被統山統洞之後你們分配到的所以這可以說是史上規模最大最複雜的這個預算的山洞那同仁呢真的文化部的同仁已經非常的努力所以我希望在野的同仁可以一起來支持文化部的解凍"},{"start":7688.001,"end":7692.424,"text":"好那接下來呢這邊要先關心小公視的經費的這個狀況預算案中文化部對公視的這個補助呢是減列了2300萬並且凍結了25%那再加上呢影視及流行音樂與輔導呢凍結了5000萬文化部的報告裡面有提到說因為預算會影響到小公視那本席這邊先請教說對小公視的影響以及目前節目直播有沒有延宕或是停擺的狀況"},{"start":7716.684,"end":7724.916,"text":"我想一定會吧我想請董事長報告因為這個部分我們固定的預算如果不能給的話那董事長這邊您先簡單的報告一下"},{"start":7727.827,"end":7752.119,"text":"謝謝委員的關心目前對小公司的影響是還蠻大的3的部分當然我們就必須要做一點項目的調整那也使得有些計畫沒辦法繼續但最主要是因為動的部分也蠻大的數字那這個部分我們目前有13個新的創的計畫目前為止都必須先暫停然後其他有些在進行中的項目我們都必須要做斟酌的修剪"},{"start":7752.959,"end":7775.415,"text":"或者是做一些调整这块我们还是蛮希望能够立法院赶快解冻因为这对国家的儿少教育的发展对儿少的这个成长影响很大是是好那这个部分呢因为今天是解冻案我们都希望说可以顺利今天会提到小公事是因为近期有不少的家长跟我分享也且称赞我们有个节目叫做欢迎光临我的牧场"},{"start":7776.235,"end":7791.999,"text":"裡面就是帶孩子們去認識養殖動物的辛苦以及相關的工作內容很有趣那孩子很喜歡看我們家的小子子也很喜歡但是家長就會擔心啊這麼優質的節目如果相關經費沒有順利解凍是不是就影響相關的這些節目的製播那部長你有看過相關這個影片嗎"},{"start":7794.98,"end":7812.898,"text":"有你自己有看過其實那個文化的那個節目的製作是很長一段時間他不是臨時要做所以那個山跟洞對我們來講傷害很大因為我們可能做一半做不下其實這個節目在youtube可以看到所以家長非常的喜歡他可以重複的播放給孩子們看"},{"start":7814.119,"end":7839.762,"text":"那我想部長你一定了解家長的憂心啦所以我在這邊還是要呼籲說在野黨真的你們要放下這個砍預算的屠刀我們要回歸我們審查預算的專業不要讓這麼優質的兒少節目受到影響影響到兒少的權益喔 謝謝那再來我要針對文資修復的部分本席也非常關心本席的選區鹿港是我國著名的古蹟聚落所以對文資修復的這個需求量非常的大"},{"start":7840.202,"end":7854.341,"text":"那本席在週一的時候也才到我們鹿港的三三國廟以及信安宮來考察修繕的成果那我相信部長也一定很支持文資修復再利用但是現在目前文資局的文化資產業務被凍結了五百萬業務費被凍結了百分之三十"},{"start":7857.205,"end":7881.039,"text":"那這個都會影響到文資局推動相關的有形的無形的這些文化資產保存的維護的工作那這次的考察裡面其實地方的文史工作者以及相關的古蹟的管理者都提出了可以再協助的相關的事項因為你修繕之後古蹟修繕之後就會有彩繪泥作等相關的這個後續的維護需求那當然我們文資的這個修復跟再利用不會有終點"},{"start":7882,"end":7903.415,"text":"所以我希望說替我們鹿港大大小小的文資來爭取我們一定要先支持文資局的解凍這個預算的解凍但是我會希望說以後我們在編列預算的時候是不是可以逐年的來增加對於文資方面這些相關的預算呢請部長您說一下您的想法其實我們始終不夠因為"},{"start":7904.515,"end":7931.328,"text":"剛剛我在前面報告說就是台灣的災情隨時發生各地方上的宮廟也好還有一些古蹟也好他隨時需要我們幫忙然後所以文資局所承擔的業務跟修繕是很重的所以這個部分的預算當然是一定要增加所以我剛才一直強調其實文化部的預算為什麼有時候我被刪或者被凍會覺得"},{"start":7932.729,"end":7938.393,"text":"很難過是因為他本來就不太夠就像你委員剛剛講他是不夠的我們隨著時間的推移需要我們修上維護的會越來越多經費也越來越龐大所以這個部分我也一再的在每次質詢的時候我會提到說希望對於文資的修復這個部分我們"},{"start":7949.54,"end":7965.656,"text":"可以更重視可以爭取到更多的預算當然有一些民眾怕人不理解他們以為他說那今年的預算煽動之後不是跟以前的規模一樣嗎但是其實我們對預算的需求是越來越高的我們必須逐年去增加逐年去編列那這個部分也請將來就是我們在編預算的時候在這一塊呢我們能夠多注意然後能夠多支持"},{"start":7972.182,"end":7981.851,"text":"好 那這個部分我先在預算的部分先這樣子我要先講一下現在民眾非常關心而且網路上很熱議的就是關於黃牛票查緝的問題因為這是攸關民眾的權益那如果說我們在黃牛票的查緝有擾民的話是不是我們應該改善檢舉的資訊"},{"start":7992.02,"end":8008.17,"text":"在日前有媒體指出有民眾在社群平台原價讓售演唱會的票卷去遭到文化局要求說明的這樣的事件那衍生出來就是有大家很熱烈的討論那其中有討論到的就是說文化部的這個黃牛檢舉專區資訊填寫的問題"},{"start":8013.073,"end":8032.7,"text":"這個部分我們資訊體檢要求要寫包含座位等詳細的訊息就是提升檢舉的難度因為現在很多黃牛他在賣票的時候是透過LINE的群組的方式來賣但是他不會透過真正的座位的訊息他會提供一個大概的區間大家自己排自己幾個座位這樣"},{"start":8033.36,"end":8043.474,"text":"那如果民眾他發現有這樣的情勢他沒有辦法檢討因為他沒有買到票啊他還沒買票的時候他就不知道真正的座位的這個訊息所以這個部分我們文化部是不是可以來研議檢討這個改善這樣的機制"},{"start":8046.343,"end":8074.313,"text":"其實這個真的是兩難因為如果我們的資訊不足的話我們無法確定他這個檢舉是不是本人然後我們要如何去把它確定資料所以剛剛講的真的是對我們文化部來講是兩難因為他資訊不足我們官司把它找到這個確定是坐在哪裡哪個位置我們都沒有辦法但是你會變成說如果你要貼這樣的訊息你沒有拿到票你不知道真正的訊息的話你明明知道有黃牛的情勢你卻沒有辦法去追啊"},{"start":8075.444,"end":8087.452,"text":"所以這點我們再來改進來了解一下你們在研議一下這個如何來改善那當然也有民眾他有反映出說只要在網路上有加價販售這個認定你們現在已經擴及到只要有上架的行為就處罰"},{"start":8093.396,"end":8099.421,"text":"就票卷沒有賣出也是一樣所以這樣子的做法是不是會衍生出檢舉黃牛這個產業的這個隱憂所以對於我們文化部來追這個黃牛票有擾民的這個部分部長您說你們可以來研議看有什麼比較周全一點的方法"},{"start":8112.37,"end":8128.156,"text":"昨天內政委員會他們有出審設違法對於運輸遊樂票券黃牛票的罰款有提高來打擊黃牛大文化部這邊是不是也可以跟內政部這邊加強合作我們來提升打擊黃牛票這個效率以及精準度"},{"start":8129.562,"end":8153.463,"text":"是 剛剛講到那個販售的定義是 善價陳列 多售多算但是剛剛講到老民跟我們的效率的確是我們未來要討論的一個部分就是在不老民的情況下 又要很有效率的抓到這個黃牛然後抓到黃牛之後 他本身要罰多少錢譬如最近抓到之後 罰太重的話 他就訴訟"},{"start":8155.36,"end":8180.146,"text":"還是跟文化部疏遠所以這一套機制其實是因為其實黃劉佩好說真的他可以有這樣的手法去販售他就是可以鑽這些漏洞那我們如果去補這些洞就變成說我們可能要多費心那這邊我還要請教部長關於剛才有很多委員非常關心的粉絲見面會是不是屬於藝文表演的一種型態"},{"start":8181.499,"end":8207.145,"text":"您覺得我剛才其實一再強調當年我們的文創法裡面加了這一條黃流的票是界定表演藝術 音樂表演一定要正式的有一個表演售票但是屬於剛剛您講的那個粉絲見面會它這個情況是各式各樣會一直變化我們要是把它界定成是表演的話那這個將來是量量是非常大而且是一個灰色地帶"},{"start":8208.265,"end":8231.622,"text":"您不覺得說因為影視產業的內容是非常的多元它有各種的太陽那如果說我們很狹隘的去認定說那粉絲見面會不屬於是藝文表演它不屬文創法的規範的話那我們要如何去抑制這個黃牛票這樣子四處的串行因為其實"},{"start":8232.483,"end":8254.292,"text":"任何應該以民眾來講他們會認為說任何的藝文表演有關的都會可以是適用文創法那部長您現在以你們的想法是覺得說這樣子它不算是表演所以它就不適用文創法嗎是它不算表演因為我剛剛有特別提到這個灰色地帶將來會一直蔓延譬如說見面簽名"},{"start":8256.033,"end":8278.852,"text":"唱一首歌算不算 唱兩首歌算不算它實在是一個商業行為在圈粉絲的過程中是一個商業行為它要賣票跟表演是不太一樣文化部當年會把黃牛拉進我們的文創法裡面其實已經給我們帶來無限的麻煩我們整個文化部為了抓黃牛這件事情我剛才講過從抓到"},{"start":8280.754,"end":8296.283,"text":"地方上警察抓到之後他訴怨等等我覺得我們如果再加進這一項其實我可以理解部長您現在講這樣子的文化部的困擾對一個文化推動者一個產業的推動者協助者那在"},{"start":8297.023,"end":8300.346,"text":"文化推動跟商業行為跟黃牛票之間你們要如何在這個中間找到一個平衡而且又能夠扶植到產業也不會讓這些黃牛有機可乘而傷害到我們產業或傷害到我們的民眾的熱情這個部分取捨或者說這個斟酌"},{"start":8319.442,"end":8340.403,"text":"這個部分當然也需要說文化部的同仁來費心但是其實如果你沒有一個相關的規範相關的一個制度去遏止黃牛票的話其實對產業的傷害也是很大的那這邊我再請教部長您之前有說跟更長管家洽談這個實名制的這個優惠方案我想知道說相關的進度如何"},{"start":8340.663,"end":8357.917,"text":"我覺得還不錯就是像小巨蛋他就願意如果你願意實名制他就八五折這個部分可能是我們最有進度的部分就是我們不斷的跟這些最大型的場館去談實名制我們文化部也編了預算鼓勵實名制"},{"start":8358.277,"end":8380.67,"text":"其實已經有願意開始配你過去好很多而且各場館也知道這個環遊的問題之後他們會主動編列那個優惠像剛剛講小巨蛋就編了85折如果你願意用實名制的話我的租賃給你是85折像這個就算是很大的進步這就很成功了對因為我們如果不從源頭去解決的話我剛剛講到一方面又要維護這些"},{"start":8382.651,"end":8387.295,"text":"他個人的個資有沒有然後一方面要去抓他抓到之後他又宿院我們整個文化部真的是為了這個黃牛我們的同仁真的很辛苦所以我們必須從源頭把他杜絕那源頭杜絕就是拜託這些場館"},{"start":8398.385,"end":8402.609,"text":"我希望文化部繼續努力還有我剛剛提到的部分關於粉絲見面會、握手會、簽唱會或是相關的各種名稱也希望你們要通盤檢討相關的機制我們要納入各種的太陽來考量才能夠真正落實查其黃牛票"},{"start":8425.643,"end":8430.79,"text":"好 謝謝陳秀寶委員 部長請回那我們接下來休息五分鐘"},{"start":8925.489,"end":8930.692,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會我們現在來邀請張雅玲委員質詢謝謝主席 我們有請部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":8947.318,"end":8969.328,"text":"委員你好部長好 今天我想要針對一個最近你們也看到網路上面有非常多的討論有關於一個泰國知名的居兒劇的組合Lingo他們現在要來台灣辦一個見面會但是這裡面有幾個疑點 可能今天要來跟部長做個討論第一個疑點就是這一場的主辦單位似乎是境外公司 是中資的超級娛樂"},{"start":8971.269,"end":8991.243,"text":"我們可以看到這個資訊上面它登記在中國澳門總公司位於中國珠海那根據兩岸人民條例或是港澳條例或是公司法未經許可其實都不可以在台灣舉辦相關的活動營業那這可能會造成一些境外它是經流在境外那它會有很多的問題這樣子那我想先請教因為其實我們之前就已經來詢問文化部了"},{"start":8998.028,"end":9016.733,"text":"但是文化部告訴我們這一場的主辦不是超級娛樂而是台灣的一間叫做藝尚的一個公司但是我們在iBone上面看到的主辦單位都還是超級娛樂所以到底是超級娛樂還是藝尚製作呢這一點可以先來幫我們做個釐清嗎"},{"start":9025.51,"end":9041.297,"text":"剛剛我其實有回答過他們是一個合作的方式啦但是主辦到底是誰主辦他是藝善在台灣的部分是由他負責但是這個抄襲是在他是澳門公司嘛他有負責找藝人好我想先確認一下因為這個東西喔"},{"start":9042.037,"end":9066.703,"text":"最主要就是說如果到時候發生了票務上的糾紛等等到底是誰要來去處理呢或者是說現場發生了一些狀況一些意外而需要求償的時候到底是向主辦求償還是向協辦來求償呢因為我們的認定他們是合作但是一定通常我們辦活動都會分這個主辦跟協辦所以到底到時候發生這些糾紛是跟誰來求償"},{"start":9068.837,"end":9090.088,"text":"益善公司在台灣負責全部的這些活動我們當然是找益善好 那我想問一下部長不知道益善的資本多少這個我不曉得100萬是可是我大概算了一下以這個票價乘以它現在的一個座位數而且我不是以最低票價來算我不是以這個什麼7980塊這個票價我大概以一個5000塊的票價來去計算它的席次"},{"start":9097.071,"end":9119.081,"text":"他大概這個收入就會有1500萬那到時候如果說只有一個營業資本額只有100萬的公司第一個他有辦法去負責他有辦法賠償這1500萬的就分嗎第二個如果說他到時候說我只是一個協辦主辦是超級娛樂他推到超級娛樂身上的時候到底會不會最後不了了之呢"},{"start":9120.49,"end":9133.221,"text":"這個是我覺得部長我們可能需要來釐清到底誰要來承擔這些相關的責任因為這是影響到台灣的追星人的消費權益所以這個部分我們是要再跟議上確認嗎還是怎麼來處理呢"},{"start":9135.759,"end":9150.865,"text":"像我們有去跟經濟部了解剛剛講到這個超期他的股權結構他的資金等等然後意義上他所扮演的角色我們目前所知道就是負責全部台灣這個部分那這種事情我覺得"},{"start":9151.545,"end":9174.641,"text":"就是我們未來要很注意的就是一個灰色地帶我想我們現在就要非常的注意這個灰色地帶因為其實像這樣子的模式這個不是第一期今年已經去年也都有就是有非常多中資用這種方式他在台灣沒有落地他找了一個小型的公司那甚至網路上面有在傳這可能是個空殼公司可能就是在活動的前幾個月他才舉辦那有些資本額可能只有20萬"},{"start":9176.635,"end":9195.603,"text":"那這個就會變成是一個漏洞讓中資可以用漏洞的方式來台灣做這樣子的工作那甚至會不會除了消費爭議可能還會有這個逃漏稅等等的問題會不會甚至有詐騙我覺得這個是需要這個部長我們可能需要盡快的來針對這個方面來去做一些處置"},{"start":9198.003,"end":9226.529,"text":"這部分是不是可以請部長來盡快來幫我們做個研議呢這個對於其實已經不是只有環流問題它可能涉及到國安等等我想說經濟部也好我們陸委會也好我們盡快跟各單位來協調對我們是不是可以跟陸委會經濟部像這種事情已經是到國安或者是中資進到台灣來換一個方式進到台灣來決定這些演唱會的內容等等這點的確是不只是環流了"},{"start":9226.869,"end":9250.669,"text":"好 但是我先跟部長講因為這個票10號就要開賣了可是這個可能就已經有我們剛剛講的消費就很爭議存在我們是不是可以在這幾天跟文化部也還有一起來開個會來討論這件事情我們可以怎麼來處理其實我們可以接受個案來檢舉啦就是我們雖然在我們的文創法裡面有這一條譬如說見面會算不算是我們文化部但是我們可以接受個案來"},{"start":9251.73,"end":9255.495,"text":"個案來檢舉那我們也盡快的委員您剛剛講到的這種我們盡快來跟相關單位來聊好 這個會後我們來約時間好不好因為我們還是要確保我們所消費者的權益啦讓他們追得到人找得到錢啦好不好那再來第二個部分就是說"},{"start":9267.05,"end":9290.395,"text":"見面會到底是不是用文創法我先跟部長有個簡單的概念其實在我小時候因為小時候就開始追星啦那時候叫做簽唱會那是對於歌手的部分但是大家可能部長也非常清楚對於演員的部分其實我們一直都沒有相關的形式過去在台灣沒有任何形式可以跟喜愛他的這個粉絲去做一些交流所以這也是為什麼後來韓劇大夯之後呢"},{"start":9293.135,"end":9308.032,"text":"我們可以看到韓國發展出了一個叫做見面會的形式其實他就是透過一個這樣子的形式來跟粉絲做互動那這些藝人本身他就是一個有名非常非常有名因為他的戲劇作品受到非常大的喜愛的一個"},{"start":9309.113,"end":9329.52,"text":"那個人物喔那可是我們現在的文創法裡面卻把這個東西不納入進去而導致我們不能抓黃牛欸可是我要跟部長講喔在這個見面會裡面其實都一定有歌舞表演欸都一定有歌舞表演而且這些見面會的營收是相當驚人的喔如果我們來看2023年這是我自己從網路上面"},{"start":9330.3,"end":9348.794,"text":"我們用工人聚會去手動去計算出的一些場次所以可能有一些沒有抓到的但是以2023年你看33場2024年40場2025年到4月而已已經11場了所以這個場次其實是越來越多的而且如果以席次而且也不是一個很大的館場台大體育館一個"},{"start":9349.915,"end":9372.302,"text":"管大概2000我算八成就好收入大概你看2023年就1.85億2024年就2.24億那2025年到現在4月就已經0.62億了所以這是一筆不小的錢耶而且他們的票價其實都是像剛剛你有看到嘛7980塊這個東西不納入文創法我覺得就是讓黃牛可以鑽漏洞啊這部分是不是可以來做一些處理呢"},{"start":9374.449,"end":9402.061,"text":"這部分是不是可以來研議把文創法來做一些調整我們可以討論一下因為那個黃流這個事情也許有的是在運動有的是在這種譯文那我想我們能夠做到的就是先接受個案的處理然後再下一步就是這個法案要不要修怎麼修我想這是我們要慎重的所以我聽起來部長其實您是開放的嘛對不對因為對於見面會因為這個其實這個形式是一直不停的在跟粉絲的交流跟互動其實是一直不停的在變"},{"start":9402.381,"end":9421.213,"text":"他個案每次到底做到什麼程度 見面會本身到底有沒有唱歌那剛才講賣票當然沒問題 一定有賣票那我們要怎麼樣去界定他是屬於文創法裡面可以管轄的這點我想我們要慎重的來考慮但是我們目前能做到就是個案來審查"},{"start":9423.359,"end":9452.979,"text":"那這個個案審查我到時候可能會再問一下到底要怎麼樣來提供相關的資訊來審查這個個案好不好那再來就是一個部分我先問一個最重要的一個問題因為其實之前大家文化部都有講說如果有大咖要來台灣的時候你們一定會去先跟他做遊說希望他可以使用實名制我想要問一下七月GD這是震撼亞洲非常大的一個大咖他要來台灣了我們準備好了嗎我們跟他們接觸了嗎"},{"start":9454.621,"end":9458.148,"text":"可不可以做個說明請我們的司長回答"},{"start":9461.537,"end":9484.21,"text":"那因為基本上其實民間辦理演唱會還是民間的自由機制那這一場委員提醒的我們來試著找一下它台灣是由哪一家公司來辦理我們會先試著能夠聯繫跟打電話提醒好那我們大概什麼時候可以追蹤這個進度呢因為這個東西一定到時候會有非常非常多的可能大家非常關注的啦大概什麼時候我們可以來追蹤後續的進度"},{"start":9484.73,"end":9506.283,"text":"委員因為我們現在真的不知道他現在台灣是找哪一間所以我們真的就只能是多方的去詢問看看願不願意先事先透露給我們那可不可以委員讓我們能夠有消息的時候就趕緊跟您這邊做說明不然這樣好不好我們五月底之前好不好五月底之前再來徵詢一下現在的進度那這邊我再做一個提醒因為其實之前在這個"},{"start":9507.984,"end":9527.273,"text":"周杰倫的時候蔡依林的時候這種非常大咖都有黃牛詐騙的問題那我非常擔心GD這一場也會有黃牛詐騙他們在網路上面說賣票可是最後其實他是用黃牛這個形式來做詐騙這個部分我們是不是可以跟我們的金管會還有這個不是金管會啦跟這個法務部"},{"start":9528.747,"end":9551.512,"text":"速發部一起來討論我們如何來預防這樣子的詐騙行為是不是可以來做這件事情 部長是 我們其實跟速發部那種已經有合作怎麼樣把它那個詐騙下架等等我想我們會進一步來研究這個那這部分我一樣五月底來跟文化部再做進一步的討論好不好我們如何來預防這一場也變成黃牛因為這是一個犯罪行為好不好 好 謝謝"},{"start":9554.172,"end":9559.534,"text":"好 謝謝張雅玲委員 部長請回我們接下來請羅廷偉委員謝謝趙偉 有請部長好 有請李部長羅委員你好 部長好"},{"start":9582.725,"end":9609.075,"text":"部長 我想跟您先請問一下委員會答詢的一個回覆大概多久會回平均這個時段平均要看什麼案子吧您覺得兩個月會不會有點久還是要看什麼案子好 那我們來討論看看您還記得上一次在委員會的時候我有給你考各個布袋戲相關的角色人物 您還記得嗎"},{"start":9611.093,"end":9627.633,"text":"記得啊 記得你考我那個布袋系 可是我又忘記了喔 沒事沒事沒事 不過我們沒有說要你記得喔 那我想我在3月27文化部的業務報告那有問這個文化傳承的一個布袋系問題喔 那時候考了這個幾個人物問題"},{"start":9629.475,"end":9654.97,"text":"但是呢我是希望說部長為避免繼續失去這個寶貴的偶系文化布袋系的扎根教育從國小、國中、高中要怎麼來做在文化的保存又要怎麼來做那時候有強調嘛那教育體系對整個布袋系的完整的一個傳承重要性那當時不要說我建議說不要把它當成是短期的一個興趣培養這樣會不夠長久那部長您也回應我非常認同"},{"start":9655.931,"end":9678.997,"text":"但是3月27到5月7號一個月過去了並沒有看到文化部的一個回覆部長您覺得這樣子是不是好像不夠重視呢當初有答應多久是沒有答應沒有沒有答應那個但是我記得正常我們回應的話至少也不要超過15天吧"},{"start":9681.621,"end":9707.692,"text":"其實我們對整個布袋系的那個傳承我們這個負責的部門其實有一整套的就是固定每一年的編列預算還有加強這個布袋系我們從頭到尾都沒有減少過包括劇本的創作 人才培育這個我相信 但是我需要資料啊所以我想 部長那兩天可以給我資料嗎因為已經一段時間了我們其實現成了吧 兩天"},{"start":9709.386,"end":9734.609,"text":"三天一個禮拜一個禮拜其實我們這個東西真的是每一年都在做所以一個禮拜給你詳細的計畫但是當時我有跟您建議就是說你也有認同就是說不只是把現有的這些計畫給我還有更重要就是我們當時有講的不要把它當成短期的興趣在教育體系上如何做一個重視那這個部分上有所突破那這個部分有沒有在做研擬"},{"start":9735.868,"end":9753.09,"text":"有啊 我們去年最近在討論明年預算的時候我們還特別針對布袋系我們要如何去推廣 這個有啦好 那就一個禮拜把資料給我 可以嗎好第二個問題 蔣部長中央社作為國家通訊社 你對它的期許是什麼"},{"start":9754.571,"end":9780.574,"text":"中央社非常重要因為它的歷史悠久所以我有兩個非常重要的任務一個就是它本身對過去所拍攝到的東西的保存因為它其他單位大概沒有它這麼多第二它有另外一個任務就是對國外的我們的駐點其實我記得文化部有一支播預算給中央社試著到每一個地方駐點包括實習生等等"},{"start":9781.155,"end":9801.074,"text":"沒有錯中央社是國家通信社我相信它不是商業的電視台那外媒對台灣的新聞需求是越來越高的一個情況之下但是最近呢上報一連四篇有關中央社的報導那不曉得部長有沒有看過我大概知道但是我沒有仔細看因為基本上我們文化部針對我們周邊這些"},{"start":9803.596,"end":9822.005,"text":"譬如中央社啊什麼公關集團等等我們是維持一個尊重他的他們怎麼樣去經營這個團隊而且這個團隊每個團隊都是歷史悠久那文化部的立場就是尊重部長我們探討是希望進進"},{"start":9823.286,"end":9841.318,"text":"我們不會說希望藉由這樣子的一個探討變成是批判我們更希望中央社越來越好那中央社員工從上班的8小時改為8加1部長請問為什麼會引起這麼大的反彈您個人有研究嗎這點我必須了解整個細節因為我們當然聽到都是一個"},{"start":9842.439,"end":9863.729,"text":"聽到的都是一個簡單的8加1我並不了解這個真的細節是什麼因為他的媒體新聞報導他是說那這個整個中央社員工的工時從8個小時變成8加1的一個背景主因是絕大多數的一個員工一直都依照8小時工時上下班 中間如需用餐休息"},{"start":9864.549,"end":9880.051,"text":"則是請員工自行安排時間找空檔那如果按照這樣子的一個新聞所述部長您覺得中央社實際上班8小時到底有沒有履行勞基法工時繼續工作4個小時至少應有30分鐘的休息時間的一個規定呢"},{"start":9881.66,"end":9895.769,"text":"其實上報這個事件那個中央社已經對外有聲明您介不介意請中央社不建議我們探討嘛介不介意換我不建議大家都是希望對有所回應讓能夠解釋一下"},{"start":9896.394,"end":9900.34,"text":"好 謝謝委員我覺得現在來回答這個用這個題目我有點委屈但是我來面對沒事沒事我覺得上報的報導我們就是探討所以我剛剛說沒有要批判我說上報的報導我覺得非常不實在"},{"start":9911.496,"end":9915.938,"text":"他前面擬了一些題目呢那我們做了說明他也不見得採信我覺得他有立場的講進來那我願意我在社內也做了跟同仁在溝通說明因為有些東西我見了報導才知道那麼我們內部就在做協調跟說明我先講一下這8加18加1的工作制度是央社配合政府的在我們在103年就已經納入社規而且經過勞資協議有升級勞資協議"},{"start":9938.166,"end":9942.169,"text":"勞資協議通過所以這件事在政府的立法有字號的那麼到了這個我進了社裡後我就發現這個社裡怎麼有人上班是8加1那我們的記者是8加1或8加2在外場實際工作時間計算但是有少部分輪值的同仁是全天就一來不管你中間有沒有休息吃飯喝咖啡等等就是8個小時就可以走那就變成兩個制度所以我們那時候探討了結果那在過程協議"},{"start":9968.647,"end":9981.739,"text":"說要不要統一可是後來討論到說有些輪班制度的同仁尤其是編輯同仁其實這部分同仁不到社內的三分之一我要講我們三分之二的同仁都是8加1的公時沒關係我只要有確認我跟個別勞工協商"},{"start":9984.621,"end":10007.512,"text":"對有當初8加1是勞工協商而且納入了社規所以我們後來也不勉強同仁也是給你這個機會來做解釋嘛好不好我們都是可以溝通可以解釋的好不好但是藉由這個平台讓我們來了解我們也希望說任何一個員工不要有這個勞動權益的受損好不好謝謝你的一個解釋那再來我想請問一下部長"},{"start":10009.022,"end":10035.903,"text":"我想這幾年演唱會經濟大家都非常關心那在台灣可以說是百花齊放那帶動文化的一個產業發展也深受年輕世代的一個喜愛這個議題我們在委員會其實很多次的都在討論像是周杰倫演唱會那一次我們說即將發生搶票的時機點我想印象你也很深刻但是相關政策我們看到黃牛票的問題並沒有因為修法而因此有所改善"},{"start":10036.864,"end":10047.501,"text":"那反而逐漸成為文化部必須面對的一個尖銳挑戰我肯定文化部對於黃牛亂象的一個積極態度但是2023年5月修正的文創"},{"start":10048.956,"end":10067.381,"text":"文創法明確禁止藝文票券加價販售同時也設置檢舉專區展現整個要打擊黃牛的一個決心但是修法之後呢法條是否真正的落實效果是否有如預期這是我們目前最大的一個考驗那我覺得"},{"start":10068.061,"end":10085.516,"text":"我想引用台中市實際狀況來作為一個案例說明因為文創法最後修法目前警察如果查獲相關的黃牛行為會將案件移送至縣市政府裁罰但是呢我們看到上次我們在內政委會審查涉違法的時候警政署有說目前至少"},{"start":10086.577,"end":10106.042,"text":"至今喔 今年開始就沒有用社會法開罰了好 那5月1號的時候 台中市政府新聞局就對媒體說啊文化部在修法之後 台中市政府新聞局已經收受了113件的一個檢舉案件包含以不正方式取得票券4件 加價轉售109件"},{"start":10108.883,"end":10129.343,"text":"以不正方式取得票券有三件資料不齊一件是資料完整經警察局協助調查之後已經移送了地檢署但是加價轉售的案件多達63件檢舉資料是不全所以已經結案了資料完備可進行的後續調查只有46件"},{"start":10131.277,"end":10147.177,"text":"針對可續行調查的46案其中29件已經處理完畢其餘17件辦理行政調查好 這些數據我是要反映兩點第一 地方政府確實有投入行政資源執行"},{"start":10148.078,"end":10171.808,"text":"法規但是呢大量的案件無法進入實質的調查主因是資料不完備還有收證困難我沒有要你記剛剛的一個數據只是要大概去引述這樣子的一個資料舉證困難部長現在各地方文化局第一線接受檢舉執行行政調查有些縣市政府的人力只有兩三人處理數十案"},{"start":10172.948,"end":10201.553,"text":"像這樣子的案件不只要像原始的購票方式去查證還要找警方協助調院票券轉售記錄還要設平台的一個資料調查電信記錄我們都知道現在已經高度數位化了已經常透過匿名的社團網路拍賣私人LINE去轉傳相關的信用卡預購的一個權利所以這樣子的一個方式變成檢舉成功率偏低文化部有沒有辦法提供統一的行政查處流程"},{"start":10202.233,"end":10229.482,"text":"支援地方來做一個執法有沒有規劃其實我們文化部是有教有做教育訓練然後我們也會了解各地方他們所遇到的問題其實我們一直在一直在做這些事情我剛剛講出這些我希望你最後能夠關心統一的一個行政查組我要真的要提醒文化部黃牛亂象不只還在民眾也感受不到修法的一個改善"},{"start":10230.182,"end":10230.322,"text":"部長可以嗎"},{"start":10256.55,"end":10277.662,"text":"可以沒問題我剛提的希望你能夠感受到好不好一起來努力好謝謝羅廷偉委員部長請回我們接下來請萬美玲委員好謝謝周偉我們有請林委員部長好有請李部長"},{"start":10284.946,"end":10306.951,"text":"王委員你好部長好部長我想在日前我們在文化部本席有這個質詢那時候我才說到說我們娛樂文創產業受到關稅的影響是最少的當時有講出一些背景同時我也有要求文化部跟文策院我們在投資上面要非常的謹慎我們才剛談完這個議題我們就看到美國的川普總統馬上在週一就宣布要針對"},{"start":10313.573,"end":10333.782,"text":"所有在美國以外製作的電影課徵100%的關稅我想這件事情其實影響也蠻大的那當然部長好像也有提到說那事實上現在就是說在台灣來製作的這個影片這個電影不太多不過我想部長是不是應該還是認為還是會影響到我們影視產業的發展"},{"start":10338.896,"end":10361.184,"text":"會 因為我們未來想要開始發展國際合作那我們就要考慮要不要跟美國合作因為這一點就是所謂的影響好 我想除了國際合作還有這個交流很重要嘛那當然這也會影響到說雖然現在我們自己自製的國片進軍到美國的片子不太多但我們總是希望"},{"start":10361.724,"end":10391.099,"text":"就有朝一日我們的國片的這個水準啦我們的製作啦我們的成果啦可以在世界各地不管美國歐洲而且我們都可以進軍我想這一定是一個我們的長遠的目標遠大的理想我們希望去達成嘛所以我想這個都是有短中長期的一個影響那第二個呢除了說我們自己的國片進去以後會百分之百的課稅之外那針對於美國也提到說如果他們的自己的這個製片是在美國以外的地方喔"},{"start":10391.519,"end":10415.528,"text":"取景或者制作或是哪些地方有参与到是不是也会在这个课税范围之内文化部第一个有没有去了解第二个如果是的话这个影响真的很大其实我们有很多的美国的片子他在我们这边去取景对于双方的交流对于提升台湾的国际能见度都是很好的所以到底什么课税范围这部分部长有了解吗"},{"start":10416.448,"end":10428.316,"text":"其實我覺得川普當年講這個百分之百的割稅他裡面的更詳細的情況我們真的沒有辦法了解因為他沒有在往下講包括您剛才講他鼓勵大家"},{"start":10429.451,"end":10445.865,"text":"他其實是鼓勵所有的美國變回美國拍攝不要到紐西蘭澳洲各國去拍他想用這個方式來抵制可是事實上因為這樣子結果他成本會變更高等等所以我們文化部所接到的是那個訊息大概就是這樣子"},{"start":10446.846,"end":10464.062,"text":"部長其實您看喔您看一下我今天提出來就是說你看我們來台取景拍攝的國際電影其實不少喔那從我現在看到不管台北催淨令啦 露西啊什麼等等很多那事實上喔我覺得對於就是我們台灣電影的這個鼓勵啊跟雙方的交流我覺得都有達到一定的這個目標啦"},{"start":10466.184,"end":10482.676,"text":"所以其實在這個川普發表說我們課徵百分之百的相關電影的關稅文化部在第一時間本身看到我們的回應是說我們會去了解這個關稅政策所包含的範圍然後會去這個嚴理因應的一個方案不過剛才我在跟這個部長這個交換意見當中我們顯然"},{"start":10486.158,"end":10496.064,"text":"我们也不知道恐怕连自己好莱坞的媒体产业都一头雾水那我们怎么去了解那又怎么去因应呢有没有一个短期上面我们的想法"},{"start":10497.014,"end":10523.639,"text":"有 其實文化部本來就有一個單位是經貿小組其實我就在前幾年我們自己開的會決定把各種可能就是跟美國之間的那種有可能那個輸入的文創產品將來萬一課稅變多了我們怎麼營運 其實我們有在做只是因為事實上我們真的輸進美國的電影譬如說這幾年只有五六部就算那個加起來的那個"},{"start":10524.939,"end":10530.624,"text":"票房五六千萬 好 沒關係 部長這樣我了解目前我們當然是比較少 當然我們分兩個第一個就是我們輸出到美國去的這個電影第二個就是說他來取景的部分 這都是有影響的那是不是會後請 文化部這邊提供給我們說你們模擬的這幾個狀態大概是要怎麼因應 那我想會後給我一份這樣的資料另外我想"},{"start":10549.199,"end":10573.465,"text":"我們這一次立法院有朝野的委員訪美團這個委員同仁回來有講到說我國應該是關稅談判第一群四國也就是台日韓越我們會在這裡面所以看起來我們這個談判很快就會來到關於這樣的一個情形我們有沒有向行政院台美貿易談判小組去反映說到時候是不是要順便把電影的關稅納入這個談判當中"},{"start":10575.746,"end":10588.241,"text":"沒有耶 因為我覺得我剛剛在前面也解釋過在WTO之後因為我們對美國的讓步之後台灣電影幾乎是被消滅的所以我也不知道我們能夠"},{"start":10589.278,"end":10590.739,"text":"我們主動提供一些我們可以想像的狀況提供給行政院"},{"start":10612.321,"end":10629.713,"text":"好 那部長再來我想文化部最近其實這幾年為了我們國產電影的這個量跟值就是產量跟品質的提升那我們也提這個國產電影長短片的一個輔導金這輔導金顯然其實都蠻重要的但我們看一下這個數據從111年的76部到113年的83部我們看到量是增加了那這個增加跟輔導金有沒有關係 您認為"},{"start":10638.927,"end":10666.014,"text":"當然是有因為我覺得有直接關係我們看到在文化部自己的資料上面還有顯示接受文化部輔導金的國產電影數量其實是呈現下降的趨勢的所以您剛剛說是有關係但我們看到有接受文化部自己的這個輔導金的數量是下降的那我們看到111年接受國片輔導金有57部113年下降到51部那這個意味什麼這第一件事"},{"start":10666.434,"end":10693.908,"text":"第二个我们再来看到虽然辅导金的补助案件刚刚本席有提到是下降的可是我们看到你整体辅导金的金额并没有下降反而是上升从111年的补助3.6亿提升到4亿这是什么一个情况是因为我们要刻意减少补助的量让我们受补助的金额增加还是这个评选上面有什么问题这个补助的方向是什么能不能部长提一下这两个数字"},{"start":10694.508,"end":10716.994,"text":"好 簡單講其實我們在福島上我們不但沒有減少還把上限從3000提到5000但是我覺得這根本的問題還是在民間的資金因為我們大概都只能給他到一半我們不可能給他全部嘛那剩下的那一半他要去找到有人願意投資那願意投資的人一定看到回收那電影的確是一個沒有辦法在"},{"start":10718.277,"end":10745.1,"text":"承諾那個投資者一定有回收的所以他被減少有各種原因部長我能理解你現在要講的但是呢我覺得你還是去看一下因為我們並不是他送上來我們全部都合嘛所以其實我們合的量其實是有下降的啦但是我們雖然合的量是下降的結果呢我們自己輔導金的總預算是往上的所以這一點很奇怪部長針對這個有說法嗎還是要會後你要把資料再給我一下"},{"start":10745.786,"end":10760.931,"text":"這個部分有各種原因 譬如說我們會選比較少一點是因為過去的經驗就是你選太多結果他都沒有完成所以我們的評審委員可能會挑選一些他判斷上會完成的影片這個各種原因"},{"start":10761.651,"end":10779.521,"text":"我想針對各種原因就是未來我們這個輔導金其實要更公開透明一些我們希望盡量的來輔導但是怎麼做這個機制我覺得要更清楚那再來我想我們的國產電影在國際影展當中的獲獎數其實我覺得它也是一個就是我們正面去看待我們的電影的狀況"},{"start":10782.102,"end":10788.884,"text":"所以我們看到逐年有提升從111年的8部電影獲得了10個獎項到112年13部電影獲得了18個獎項113年13部電影更獲得23個獎項我想這是非常值得讚許的但是我們看到在國際影影展獲獎的電影裡面得到文化部國產電影輔導金的真的是"},{"start":10805.729,"end":10824.396,"text":"沒有幾部寥寥可數你看到我們在111年剛說的獲獎當中八部只有兩部112年的十三部也只有四部那113年的十三部獲獎電影當中也僅有六部 二分之一都不到所以能不能在這裡說明一下為什麼我們獲獎成績其實很好但我們的輔導金是不是沒有給予幫助或者方向是錯誤的"},{"start":10833.747,"end":10851.859,"text":"這點我沒有辦法立刻回答的原因是我也不太了解他沒有拿到輔導金然後他得了獎但是我必須承認我來以後我想說剛剛您講到機制譬如說評審委員用什麼東西怎麼組成然後他到底要給哪一種電影比較商業還是比較藝術這個我覺得"},{"start":10853.08,"end":10867.797,"text":"那這樣子好不好謝謝部長其實您對於您不太了解的狀況我覺得也是直訴的回答那就是我們共同面對這樣的問題那本席既然把它提出來了我覺得值得這個部長去了解看看那是不是能夠在一個月之內"},{"start":10868.357,"end":10885.712,"text":"把今天我所提的问题当中你也发现说这个外委员提出来的问题的确是一个问题在我们怎么样让辅导金的机制更透明然后刚刚本席所提到的说获奖无数但是其实我们给的辅导金又这么少那整个原因是什么我们怎么去做改善一个月之内跟本席书面的答复可以吗"},{"start":10886.552,"end":10908.007,"text":"其實我們多了一個文策院之後有些不是文策院他在投資這是我猜想因為我看這幾部感覺不可能自己拍可能是文策院有投資那輔導金是兩個不同的機制我想我們整理一下好 部長就是整體的因素我們用素面一個月之內跟北溪回覆一個月可以嗎可以 因為這個我蠻完整的謝謝好 謝謝萬美玲委員部長請回接下來請葉元芝委員"},{"start":10928.473,"end":10930.795,"text":"我們請部長好 有請部長部長好葉委員你好部長 我也是想要來請教一下延續剛剛那個輔導金因為我們是有列另外一個標準就是用市佔率就是看它的票房"},{"start":10948.348,"end":10976.701,"text":"當然以票房來講的話這是前十名可不可以一樣就是提供我一個報告就是講一下為什麼有的電影它是有領到輔導金然後是領多少然後標準是什麼這樣子好不好今天不用回答了就是事後再給個書面報告這個也是我們本身文化不該重新去想那個機制所以謝謝你問這個因為我們看到市占率比較高的電影就是票房比較好的電影好像都沒有來申請輔導金"},{"start":10977.961,"end":11000.989,"text":"那有的可能是他認為他來申請也申請不到啦所以就放棄申請啦那也有的可能是沒有給那有的是領到之後 領到輔導金票房很好那有的可能是領到輔導金票房不好所以我想要依票房順序可不可以提供給我們一個資料 說明資料好 謝謝第二個我想還是想講一個我滿關心的黃牛的議題"},{"start":11003.562,"end":11027.14,"text":"之前文化部兩千多萬打黃牛辦公室後來我們都沒有凍結也沒有刪除就是希望文化部打黃牛這塊可以非常認真去做那三月多的時候我有去 因為我們有執行執行結果發現裁罰量在三月的時候裁罰量是145件其實比例是很低"},{"start":11027.941,"end":11052.931,"text":"那今天是已經到五月初了大概過了一個多月那裁罰量增加到160件大概一個多月只增加15件全台灣喔黃油的裁罰量只有增加15件我也是非常的不滿意啦那等一下再請部長回答啦有一個地方政府的局長他是在媒體上面公開的把問題點出來他說"},{"start":11056.223,"end":11073.068,"text":"因為地方的人力不足以桃園來講人力大概就只有兩個人所以結案率很低目前結案不到三分之一所有結案應該是中央打黃油辦公室收案之後分案分給桃園那分給桃園的案子他們到現在結案"},{"start":11073.948,"end":11087.34,"text":"不到三分之一那也不是說他們不認真他們非常認真但是人力就不足啊而且中央分給他們的案子裡面後來發現無效案件高達四成等於是花了很多時間在查無效案件"},{"start":11089.844,"end":11113.749,"text":"那其中還有一個問題就是他們需要很多不同的機關的支持例如說他們需要警察的支持他們還要去問當事人然後甚至於還要去問售票系統那售票系統會不會願意把資料給他們這也是一個很大的問題所以困難重重啦地方沒有什麼人力所以現在他們桃園是直接跟中央要人"},{"start":11114.329,"end":11126.762,"text":"那我的了解應該不是只有桃園有這樣的狀況因為機制是一樣的嘛中央接到案子之後由打黃牛辦公室來分案分給地方去查然後最後做裁罰"},{"start":11128.018,"end":11148.786,"text":"如果地方現在面臨人力不足所以黃油票在查的速度比較慢然後一直沒有辦法結案請問一下 我問一下那個部長能不能調整一下這個人力分配啊既然你們都已經編了兩千多萬成立打黃油辦公室在中央那中央這個打黃油辦公室能不能分擔一些地方的負擔部長"},{"start":11149.67,"end":11173.923,"text":"我想你剛才講到桃園市政府這一點我們能夠做的就是我們評估一下他們需要什麼經費其實我們的經費也不多啦評估一下他需要什麼協助因為我們對於地方上我們有個法律諮詢單位也做過教育訓練一個是法律知識 一個是人力那人力在地方上不足這是普遍的現象"},{"start":11175.504,"end":11202.889,"text":"我們的文化不能做就是知道他需要什麼我們能不能幫助這個應該不會只有桃園有這個狀況因為我們剛剛看到全國的整個黃流票的裁罰量就是很少嘛一個多月只剩下15件主要是他的那個裁罰過程非常的繁複那中央已經花兩千多萬都成立那個打黃流辦公室啊那這個打黃流辦公室不能多負擔一點工作嗎為什麼他們只負責收案跟分案"},{"start":11208.776,"end":11217.587,"text":"然後是由律師事務所承接對 然後其實他們也可以初步也可以做一些查詢的工作嘛不見得全部都要都丟給地方去做啊"},{"start":11219.89,"end":11242.417,"text":"我們人力也不太夠耶怎麼你們都編那麼多錢成立打黃牛辦公室國家隊耶他主要是那個程序沒有啦不講我們現在是把這個問題提出來因為黃牛大家都深惡痛絕那不要因為什麼中央地方權責什麼人力這種東西讓黃牛沒辦法打下去嘛這其實影響的是消費者的權益啦"},{"start":11242.657,"end":11269.882,"text":"因為打黃牛這也是文化部既定政策而且我們文創法也修了嘛法律也有配套所以現在應該思考說在質詢過程如何讓它更完美嘛那現在的問題就是第一結果確實不好因為增加的件數不多第二個其實是卡在人力不足造成結案率很低這些問題我們都看到了所以當然文化部應該針對這些問題提出一個解決的方法嘛才能讓打黃牛這個事情比較順利啦"},{"start":11272.624,"end":11295.711,"text":"長遠看的話這個問題應該是有地方上編預算把這個人力再補助長遠怎麼樣我希望說你們去找地方政府討論因為現在你也不能說中央怪地方地方怪中央然後事情沒得做然後大家黃牛就是一直存在我覺得這的確是一直存在好不好部長我希望快一點因為文創法修法也好幾年了"},{"start":11297.077,"end":11318.215,"text":"這個可不可以提出一個檢討的報告出來可以嗎部長可不可以檢討報告不好意思委員這邊是希望我們跟地方大聲一點我聽不見委員這邊是希望我們再跟地方政府討論一下現在問題已經提出來給你們了啊然後對啊你總是要提出一個解決的方法出來嘛可以嗎"},{"start":11321.089,"end":11335.222,"text":"多久其實黃柳的問題從我來上任以來委員你大概記得吧您的質詢一直在問黃柳其實我們已經到了行政院層級開了很多會然後跟每個部位都討論過"},{"start":11336.403,"end":11342.706,"text":"最後我們能夠執行就是就到地方去找每一個場館拜託在實名制的時候現在結果就是這樣嘛不然我們會一直在循環這些查證啊 警察抓完之後抓要罰錢啊然後他再來說怨啊不是 他會罰"},{"start":11354.45,"end":11382.839,"text":"不要去找理由啦 不想聰明的人找方法啦好不好現在的問題就是沒有解決那請大家針對問題想到一個方法來解決就是這樣子 好不好想一個解決方案出來啦 盡快啦好不好 不想好 盡快這個 叫你想一個方法解決問題本來就是你的工作啊 這個不是我對啊 它本來就是你的工作啊這個本來就是個難題 譬如說要處理啦 不然我們文創法是修心酸的喔"},{"start":11383.971,"end":11397.672,"text":"那現在就是卡在說人力不足然後結案率不到三分之一啊他結案率的問題太明顯了而且這個全國都這樣因為我剛剛講一個全國數字嘛我剛剛講全國數字一兩個月還增加15件而已那麼多人在檢舉好啦 部長這個問題要解決了這絕對不會是在"},{"start":11400.235,"end":11420.275,"text":"為難你啦這真的是要解決的問題啦然後再來我提醒幾件事情第一個是我們在平台上面賣黃牛票的狀況可能還是蠻嚴重可能要請你了解一下這個是六月份五月天的演唱會他的票在他的賣票系統上面都已經官方已經完售了可是我們有發現一個以前曾經媒體有報導過一個跨國的"},{"start":11423.24,"end":11439.055,"text":"票券的販售平台你可以看到他還是在這個平台上面還是買得到五月天的票喔而且一張票可以賣到九千塊啊這個很擺明就是黃油票因為有加價出售嘛那這個因為我不想幫這個平台打廣告所以我就把這個平台"},{"start":11441.474,"end":11467.648,"text":"隱蔽在上面討論演唱會門票的人是非常的踴躍而且曾經在2018年的時候有媒體報導過這個平台當時是直接把這個平台定位為黃牛票網站那我想因為2023年之後因為我們文創法修之後可能沒有那麼猖獗已經不敢那麼明目張膽但是他還是繼續以一個那個門票販售平台的形式經營只是平台形式經營就是會出現黃牛票"},{"start":11468.513,"end":11486.29,"text":"所以這個我們會後再提供給文化部像這種媒體報導過的然後民眾也關注的很知名的類似的平台文化部應該會有相關的訊息我不知道為什麼連這種東西都沒有我們其實剛才委員問的就是我們找過速發部去研究"},{"start":11487.45,"end":11515.568,"text":"檢舉裡面有7個常見的售票帳號有22篇文章速發部也協助我們把它下架基本上我們在剛剛委員所提的問題其實我們有非常努力的用各種方式去防堵包括其他部會的合作還有警政單位你們可以建議速發部成立一個APP因為他們之前有做一個打炸APP打了APP就是讓民眾去檢舉去APP檢舉然後他立刻會找相關單位回覆說這是不是一個詐騙"},{"start":11516.388,"end":11528.834,"text":"其實也可以弄一個APP就是打黃牛的只要有人看到黃牛資訊就趕快去APP他就可以自動回覆啊好 謝謝好 謝謝葉雲芝委員 部長請回接下來請范雲委員有請部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":11545.231,"end":11551.38,"text":"方委員你好部長早安我想首先就是針對黃牛我也想繼續追問下一頁"},{"start":11554.8,"end":11566.365,"text":"為什麼沒有辦法下一頁那其實我想林益景召委也在這裡我們從上一屆就一直在關心黃牛的議題那以我個人找出黃牛議題的追蹤記錄從一開始質詢文化部要求解決然後到擔任召委的時候辦過黃牛票的公聽會那後來終於我們排審了就在當時我排審的文創法的修法我們制定了黃牛條款"},{"start":11581.132,"end":11596.827,"text":"那後來也發現還是不夠所以又過了半年我提出預算案還有質詢要求文化部說明實名制的鼓勵因為當時你們主張要鼓勵還有二手票券的交易平台的規劃那到去年4月"},{"start":11597.547,"end":11617.482,"text":"我們發現其實已經有了黃牛檢舉專區就是你們文化部做的可是發現檢舉門檻所以也不一定要不用再去做什麼APP你們本來就有黃牛檢舉專區發現檢舉的門檻太高所以我兩次都要求文化部要降低可是今天 下一頁"},{"start":11618.803,"end":11635.752,"text":"就是這個部分我們就不用講了我們修法的內容那現在還是未成案比例太高所以問題是出在你們這個檢舉專區很多人認為說因為你要有就是座位的號碼所以讓大家變成是說要先成交然後才能檢舉成功"},{"start":11639.895,"end":11654.27,"text":"那這個部分下一頁就是我之前的質詢就是希望你們改這個檢舉黃牛專區的設計那當時你們也答應了就是說不需要先成交就可以檢舉"},{"start":11655.411,"end":11671.387,"text":"因為成交就更難了嘛那為什麼超過一年你們還是沒有修正喔那下一頁喔那你們給我們的公文就說文化部其實台北市政府也來問這個問題那你們有函附台北市政府說未成交也可以開罰"},{"start":11672.748,"end":11700.687,"text":"那但是呢很多人那重要是說你的相關的辦法也還沒改一個就是黃牛專區因為我們去查了一下其實你可以自己修正這個執法就是檢舉案件處理及獎勵辦法裡面規範了要座位號碼入場序號那不就等於要買成這個黃牛票才能夠嗎那你明明就可以去改變的部分那所以就發現你們沒有處理這個部分這是我今天第一個想問的問題下一頁"},{"start":11702.908,"end":11718.027,"text":"那第二个我觉得我们现在要聚焦问题当时我们鼓励你们做实名制因为日本的实名制就非常有名其实也证明实名制你们的给我们的报告中95%的检举是发生在没有实名制的"},{"start":11718.527,"end":11745.38,"text":"所以其實只要實名制 它就不會有這個部分可是我們現在看到的 譬如說周杰倫張學友這些在台北大巨蛋 還有包含高雄順暢還是有一些沒有實名制 再下一頁所以你鼓勵實名制已經有一些成效你核定的效果 目前的計畫是這樣所以下一頁所以我今天很具體的想問就是說第一個就實名制文化部如何繼續推動"},{"start":11746.641,"end":11771.921,"text":"那這些還沒有辦法譬如說小巨蛋這次他就有推出方案實名制可以享受活動日場租八五折這樣不是很好嗎那那個主辦單位他就會去考慮實名制那可是台北大巨蛋林口體育館還有其他的都還在研議所以是不是文化部第一個可以就實名制下一頁"},{"start":11773.37,"end":11796.603,"text":"未來的多場大型演唱會比如我自己也很喜歡的孫燕姿要來了大家有看到新聞喔那能不能夠採實名制然後困難在哪裡那在下一頁喔那還有我剛剛前面所講的其實你們自己的執法要修還有那個黃牛專區的平台的修改那部長是不是可以簡要回答我"},{"start":11799.881,"end":11815.456,"text":"一個是實名制目前還是有一些場館沒有辦法推動成功的那部長是不是可以更積極的去推動還有剛剛講你們只要修職法拿掉那些票卷等具體名稱的這個兩個事情是不是可以再精進再努力"},{"start":11815.856,"end":11841.597,"text":"好 謝謝其實我剛剛有在前面回答過就是實名制這個因為我沒辦法在法律上限制對 用鼓勵的我們其實都知道是要鼓勵的對 但是我們也很感謝各地方政府跟那些廠廣跟我們開會完他們也積極的盡量鼓勵用實名制那效果的確不錯就是大家可以看到那個增加的速度蠻快的然後我們也補助他另外他們也用那個"},{"start":11842.899,"end":11849.588,"text":"用獎勵的譬如你以實名字我就給你八五折那目前只有小巨蛋那這個部分我們會再來你們再精進好嗎那還有剛剛我講的說修職法那個部分還有你的檢舉黃流專區的改變這是不是可以簡單你們自己就可以做到的"},{"start":11859.045,"end":11885.118,"text":"這個好像很難很難嗎因為時間的緣故你們去研議然後可不可以一個月內再給本席報告呢相關的報告好嗎如果需要報告我們會再提供這邊先簡單說明一下之所以需要有這些檢舉資訊主要是因為我必須能夠循線追查地方政府他其實沒有任何可以去追索的線索的時候這些事情都沒有辦法做進一步的查證"},{"start":11886.158,"end":11906.29,"text":"那這樣有一個矛盾啦因為你們給台北市的公文說不需要買成票嘛就是跟委員報告其實現在其實我們也一直在跟民眾消費者大眾其實在呼籲其實現在網路上有非常多他宣稱他有票但他無法提供票號或是座位號的時候實際上他可能就是99.9%是詐騙所以基本上我們不鼓勵不鼓勵買黃牛票這個矛盾是在哪裡不用買成票就可以檢舉可是黃牛專區卻要有詳細的票號"},{"start":11915.575,"end":11940.334,"text":"那個沒有買成的他其實是有跟對方詢問你是不是可以給我看你的票號那他其實提供票號之後我們這邊就可以追查到那他也是就是道高一尺磨高一丈他可能就知道要檢舉那就給我相關報告好不好如何精進這兩件事還沒有辦法實名制的場館提出誘因那另外就是說有沒有辦法不需要票號就檢舉我是覺得還是要再努力一下"},{"start":11941.255,"end":11968.539,"text":"那另外一題下一頁就是國家人權博物館的組織法這是我跟今天的解凍案有關的那我當時跟大家一起並動一百萬就是明明就是有第二條本館長理威權時期相關人權檔案等之典藏研究展示及教育等所以關於政治檔案就是威權時期的人權檔案這個部分部長了解下一頁"},{"start":11969.139,"end":11992.992,"text":"那所以我當時我的預算希望你們能夠針對就是當時的政治監控檔案提出研究或服務的計劃研究就是說能夠有人去研究是最好的不管是鼓勵或是你們的研究員服務計劃就是說也許有很多人不知道怎麼去看政治檔案怎麼去了解像你們有辦過的工作坊就相當不錯嘛下一頁"},{"start":11994.195,"end":12004.584,"text":"那可是你們回給我的好像是模擬兩可可救 可救不代表要研究那第三個說你們已經研究的可是你們已經研究這個是以不易移植的空間為主體的政治檔案跟我所講的是以受害者為主體的政治檔案是不太一樣的我覺得這個非常好以不易移植"},{"start":12015.754,"end":12031.801,"text":"是安康接待所金門歷史長旨那可是有更多的譬如說軍中的政治檔案這些其實並沒有被抓去關的或者在抓去關之前它其實也有相關的政治檔案的那這部分"},{"start":12032.801,"end":12053.015,"text":"那我下一頁譬如說這是你們目前有做的那我覺得第三個部分這個政治檔案解讀工作坊就非常好報名就馬上截止了馬上報滿應該要繼續辦那再下一頁那跟部長講分享一下經濟學人最近有刊出這一期都是台灣專題有一個專題是講台灣的政治檔案"},{"start":12056.317,"end":12074.63,"text":"他說我們的政治檔案疊起來等於是六倍的高塔就是六倍的101的高度這算起來是多少量啊所以現在我們的研究跟有知還是非常非常的少那因為國家人權博物館幾乎就是促轉會解散後非常少數能夠針對人權檔案做研究的"},{"start":12080.874,"end":12096.736,"text":"所以是不是能夠請人權管,我知道你們的預算有些被煽動那更加積極的在你們能夠努力的範圍內去研究政治檔案並向大眾推廣怎麼去申請使用看這些政治檔案好嗎?這個部長可以答應嗎?"},{"start":12097.953,"end":12125.968,"text":"其實我們的預算真的少到我來做才發現非常少所以他能夠做的東西包括他空間的不易移植等但是研究我們會往下做好那針對我剛講的不是以移植的空間而是以受害者為核心你們可以去用訪談或者工作坊教大家怎麼做多給我們一點預算我們可以增加人力我們一定願意多給你們因為這個部分我自己看我們的預算編列這個人權管真的非常少"},{"start":12126.348,"end":12140.984,"text":"那如果不夠的話部長明年也可以自己再增加預算這個部分我覺得繼續要增加因為這次有些被刪掉了才會有人力但是開始規劃是必要的那是不是也可以一個月內可以給我一個規劃的報告好嗎可以嗎其實我們有待做謝謝 感謝謝謝部長"},{"start":12150.316,"end":12159.217,"text":"好 謝謝范雲委員 部長請回那我們接下來要來處理解凍專案報告案喔那我們先休息三分鐘"},{"start":12423.786,"end":12433.403,"text":"好 各位同仁我們現在開始開會那我們現在來處理解凍專案報告案第一案至二十案請議事委員宣讀"},{"start":12437.209,"end":12445.871,"text":"1.文化部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部新增決議2.文化部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部新增決議"},{"start":12465.629,"end":12494.519,"text":"二六九預算凍結專案報告請查詐案四文化部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第十九十九款第六項新增決議單一五預算凍結專案報告請查詐案五文化部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第十九款第九項新增決議三二四預算凍結專案報告請查詐案六文化部函"},{"start":12495.659,"end":12517.73,"text":"為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第十九款第九項新增決議三二七預算凍結專案報告請查這案七文化部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議十一預算凍結專案報告請查這案八文化部函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議十四預算凍結專案報告請查這案"},{"start":12524.71,"end":12545.808,"text":"10.文化部函為1.14年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部新增決議279預算視覺及表演藝術之策劃與發展預算凍結百分之十專案報告請查詐案11.文化部函為1.14年度中央政府總預算決議減送文化資產局新增決議290預算凍結專案報告請查詐案12."},{"start":12549.847,"end":12556.533,"text":"文化部函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第十九款第四項新增決議306預算凍結專案報告請查詐案"},{"start":12560.668,"end":12572.399,"text":"13.文化部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第19款第5項新增決議310業務費預算凍結30%專案報告請查詐案14.文化部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部決議12預算凍結專案報告請查詐案"},{"start":12583.63,"end":12600.226,"text":"15.文化部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議檢送該部新增決議223預算凍結專案報告,請查詐案16.文化部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議檢送該部新增決議235文化資源業務預算凍結專案報告,請查詐案"},{"start":12604.83,"end":12624.983,"text":"十七 文化部函為一一四年度專案政府總預算決議檢送該部新增決議二九八預算凍結專案報告請查詐案十八 文化部函為一一四年度專案政府總預算決議檢送國立台灣博物館新增決議三二零預算凍結專案報告請查詐案十九 文化部函"},{"start":12625.923,"end":12644.823,"text":"為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送國立台灣史前文化博物館新增決議三二三預算凍結專案報告請查詐案二十文化不含為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送國立台灣文學館新增決議三三二預算凍結專案報告請查詐案宣讀完畢"},{"start":12646.783,"end":12670.004,"text":"好那我們來一案一案處理齁那第一案第一案凍結百分之二十兩千零四十七萬五千元對對對對剛宣讀完了嘿對好那第一案第一案大家有沒有意見各位委員"},{"start":12671.308,"end":12687.945,"text":"第一案 沒有意見 那就準以動之提報院會好 第二案 第二案是凍結30%2億3千208萬元第二案有什麼意見沒有好 那我們請柯政委員 再來請萬美玲委員"},{"start":12688.886,"end":12715.123,"text":"好 因为第二案我说现在预算的解冻真的是包山包海第二案大家比较关切刚刚有很多委员人质询就有关于黄牛票的部分我当然也问了文化部他也给我一些检举案的资料谢谢文化部但是我还是要讲还是没有办法告诉我对于黄牛的猖狂到底我们文化部有没有比较积极的一个做法"},{"start":12715.663,"end":12739.698,"text":"因为你虽然调列的非常多像检举数等等之类的我也看了但是呢我还是要提出这两个样态当中有关于这个加价的转售的案件当中不好意思成案率只有26%而且你的裁罚率带只有6%而已这个东西竟没有也还是没有太大的一个改进那有关于像你说不正方式的这个案件像什么机器人这些等等等等更惨"},{"start":12740.959,"end":12766.247,"text":"它这个成案率只有2%然后呢你的起诉率大概也只有7%所以对于文化部给本席的这样子的一个回应好像还是没有在我们当初要冻结时希望你们能拿出一个更积极的做法所以这部分呢我们还是要再请文化部是否可以给我们更正向的一个回应好不好因为这个回应还是没有当初我们冻结的理由上面还是没有办法厘清我们的疑虑了"},{"start":12768.612,"end":12781.839,"text":"好 這個案子好像是Town Plus的案 第二案不好意思 理解錯誤那我們再先請萬美玲委員"},{"start":12784.027,"end":12797.585,"text":"好 謝謝昭緯我想徵求昭緯的同意我想我等一下就是針對第二案 第三案跟第七案其實是還有相關的我想我都是同時講一下因為二 三 七我想昭緯應該也知道好"},{"start":12798.626,"end":12819.884,"text":"那第一個就是我們針對這個公視還有這個台灣plus的這個預算凍結案我們可以看到這個文化部提出來的報告其實很多那裡面也列舉了不管是在公視的主評還有我們小公視或者是台語台在過去有很多很豐碩的成果包括了金馬獎啦或者影展得獎作品等等我想我們都相當的肯定"},{"start":12820.584,"end":12832.376,"text":"但是這一些其實大概都是過去我們拍攝的一個成果我們比較聚焦報告上比較聚焦可能在過去的一些榮光但是我們希望更可以看到的就是我們對於未來的經濟以及我們相關的檢討能不能更仔細更詳細在這份報告當中"},{"start":12838.502,"end":12862.251,"text":"其實本席很仔細的看過我們對於未來規劃的這個描述上面我覺得還是略顯薄弱那針對這次解凍案我們最關鍵在公視的新聞及節目製作上面的相關成效還有我們在委員會審查的時候提出來的很多的問題我想這個文化部雖然有大概提到那我希望在還有三個比較核心的問題上面那能夠得到更明確的答覆"},{"start":12862.651,"end":12879.841,"text":"第一個就是在這個台灣Plus我們在這個歐美這個低觀看率的部分還有內容定位的問題我們是不是已經完成了觀眾需求調查還有策略的調整那尤其是我們現在又針對了看到了美國關稅政策的一個衝擊會不會有一些其他的變化"},{"start":12881.042,"end":12908.662,"text":"再来就是我们看到我们影剧产业透过台湾Plus的播出会不会也有相关的课税有没有一些影响那这些能不能够再说得更仔细一点那第二个部分也就是在我们新闻内容曾经因为有一些新闻这个节目的事件那可能有一些比较偏颇的立场的部分那有影响到一些相关的我国形象我们也要求了公司要能够强化新闻编采的标准跟内控的一个机制哦"},{"start":12909.122,"end":12935.027,"text":"所以我們還沒有看到尤其是我們文化部有提到說我們的做法上就是要加強教育訓練延攬台一級的主編來加入研議制定國際新聞直播的一個準則專章可是呢我想本席在看的時候還是沒有看到我們到底要怎麼強化公視的節目暨新聞自律委員會對於新聞直播確保客觀性跟中立性的一個方案那另外"},{"start":12936.627,"end":12955.787,"text":"我想这文化部提到的国际新闻直播准则要这个相关的研拟这个进度上面是什么什么时候可以完成这个部分呢也希望文化部能够再说清楚一些那第三个我们看到我们在预算的执行透明度跟责任的机制上面看起来还仍显不足"},{"start":12956.508,"end":12981.667,"text":"那是不是能夠看到這個台灣Plus我們歷年的預算是非常龐大的可是相關的資金的分配還有我們內容的採購的流程以及成效的評估等等的資訊公開是不足的所以過去都是看到在公視的一個董事會那我們外界其實難以全面的來了解跟監督那現在我們在報告上有說到說要把這個年度的報告"},{"start":12982.307,"end":12990.174,"text":"要放在我們公共電視的官方網站當中年報跟訊息的專區想要充分地去公開具體的成果"},{"start":12991.533,"end":13020.846,"text":"可是我必須要請教一下部長就是說我們實際到底會揭露哪些內容怎麼揭露還有過去我們台灣PLUS這個KPI的這個指標的修訂我們把下載數改成觀看數跟滿意度那其實我想是不是可以建議我們應該要主動建立定期可以查核的制度以及我們公平這個公開這個平台這個流量還有我們觀眾分析的相關的數據也就是說我們可不可以把今天你提出來一個大方向"},{"start":13021.246,"end":13047.958,"text":"更落實起來所以我想我們的預算其實是人民納稅前我想我們要嚴格的監督落實的執行這個是最重要的所以在這裡我也特別提出來說我們今天的解凍案子我想今天文化部提出了很詳細的說明我們也很仔細的去了解原則上我們都是支持但我希望能不能在解凍的部分我剛剛提到那幾項我們請文化部可以督促公視在三個月內"},{"start":13048.718,"end":13063.49,"text":"可以完成對外公布關於我們提到的國際新聞製播準則而且能夠針對我們台灣PLUS的國際行銷成效還有收視表現跟觀眾那個…是不是那個…我們可不可以稍微…謝謝"},{"start":13065.371,"end":13080.903,"text":"因為我怕部長聽不太清楚我們現在跟他提的要求所以拜託一下各位同仁謝謝你們就是最重要的就是這一點我們請文化部督促公視三個月內完成對外公布國際新聞製播準則這個很重要因為也是文化部提的另外針對台灣Plus的國際行銷的成效收視表現還有觀眾輪廓能夠進一步來做評估"},{"start":13086.508,"end":13095.304,"text":"讓我們的委員會能夠更清楚知道這個補充報告三個月之內麻煩文化部能夠把它提出來以上等一下請文化部做一個回答 謝謝"},{"start":13097.554,"end":13123.36,"text":"好 我想是一案一案是因為萬有委員說他就是一併他是一併把二三七一起講 等於是他第三案跟第七案基本上就不發言了嘛 是這個意思 對不對那好 那我現在還是第二案喔 好不好第二案喔 齁好 這樣第二案那就吳立華委員 劉淑冰委員 柯子恩委員 好"},{"start":13127.006,"end":13147.909,"text":"謝謝主席針對第二案這個台灣Plus我其實也有收看那我之前質詢的時候也有提到過因為我們都知道台灣Plus它標榜要掌握國際話語權向世界傳播這個台灣的觀點但是我經常看到裡頭的一些內容例如像原住民小朋友"},{"start":13148.49,"end":13161.444,"text":"穿著竹符喝珍奶講華語我想華語怎麼說全世界很多人都聽得出來但是當台灣的原住民小朋友穿著竹符然後講著華語"},{"start":13164.146,"end":13188.042,"text":"說起來就是他其實是把原住民的文化當作是客體而不是一個主體所以在這個部分我就是想要請文化部這邊具體的說明一下一旦涉及到不同的族群文化跟族群語言的這種內容那未來會怎麼去強化它的品質然後尊重族群的主體性那當我們在跟世界發聲的時候能夠去傳達一種正確的台灣觀點 謝謝"},{"start":13193.413,"end":13211.96,"text":"好 我們接下來請劉淑冰委員好 謝謝昭葦早上的詢答當中已經有提到關於黃油票採實名制這一部分有一些成果但是在沒有採取實名制的活動"},{"start":13213.48,"end":13230.393,"text":"影視藝文這部分的情況呢卻有八千件的檢舉那文化部部長他也提到說這個人力是否足夠的問題也是很大然後警察機關配合這部分他也是承認這個很大很大的問題他覺得這個包括後來什麼定罪等等的都是"},{"start":13231.966,"end":13246.12,"text":"曠日廢時那這邊等於說文化部認為是一個很大的一個能力沒辦法支應的狀況那怎麼樣的可是文化部卻沒有對於說怎麼樣的再去處理這些部分尤其是目前只有說80場是針對有"},{"start":13248.863,"end":13268.561,"text":"實名制的部分 可是可能還有上百場沒有實名制的這個情況那就是產生這樣才8000件的因此要詢問的是針對文化部這邊對在做檢舉的案件上面的這個處理我覺得應該要做更深度的有些時程上面的一些回應 不然的話其實這個部分造成一個是更多的問題出現"},{"start":13270.695,"end":13299.369,"text":"好 谢谢再请柯志恩委员对 因为我刚刚特别提到的这个第二项这真的是包山包海那既然是扯到这个台湾Plus那我们当然就把有关台湾Plus的部分也可以稍微提出来那第三案其实也跟这个都是有关系那就成如我上次所提到的但是我觉得在这一次的解冻当中并没有针对我的问题提出我希望能够得到的一个答案希望利用这一次的机会像我上次就特别提到的"},{"start":13299.949,"end":13326.525,"text":"很多内部上面里面的一些的检举就说它是完全是高于市价的外包的制作费那节目部都是外包成本高的惊人那这一块我不晓得台湾plus的相关单位有没有要来做一个澄清的还有呢我上次也特别提到因为去年度的预算花不完然后呢113年度的预算还剩下一亿多然后呢还跟文化部有做这个预算延约的这个程序"},{"start":13327.085,"end":13349.258,"text":"也就是说你还有半年要处理去年花不完的钱然后你现在要告诉我们还要更多的那这样的一个预算的控管还有这个管理的部分显然在给我的回应上面并没有让我得到某种程度的澄清所以我个人觉得还有包括上一次这个内部的检举的信函当中我比较遗憾的是经过这么久的时间在质询台上问了这些问题我都没有得到这个"},{"start":13353.16,"end":13365.094,"text":"立即的一個回應我想利用這次機會在解凍案的部分請這個文化部一併來做一個說明 謝謝好 如果沒有其他委員有意見的話那我就請文化部來回答部長"},{"start":13369.275,"end":13369.835,"text":"好 那我們請胡董事長嗎"},{"start":13393.344,"end":13413.552,"text":"謝謝委員指教 關於台灣Plus的改革的部分我們事實上董事會在剛剛5月份的董事會經過深入的討論奠基於前面我們有一個三人小組的調查案這個調查報告提出來之後然後經過我們的台灣Plus提出一個改善方案 一共有四項"},{"start":13414.372,"end":13437.22,"text":"然後董事會同時也通過了一些相關的決議希望能夠貫徹新階段的改革這所有的資料我們都可以提供那在方向上基本上就是包括媒體定位內容策略新聞資源跟主管聆聘這些東西我們都已經提出一些改革方案希望在未來的三個月內能夠逐步落實跟委員做個說明那如果需要這些資料我們都可以提供好是"},{"start":13443.652,"end":13459.6,"text":"有關於其中的一部分那您還要就是關於您剛才提到說有一部分內部的組織還有同仁提出的一個檢舉等等相關的事項所以現在已經有了對不對對就是剛剛本月份的董事會通過可以立即給你沒有問題"},{"start":13462.789,"end":13474.925,"text":"那董事長我還說你們可以立即給我為什麼要我提出來你們才給我因為在這次解凍案之前就應該先給我們就是剛剛這個月的董事會才通過對所以現在才你們董事會這個月董事會什麼時候開五月的"},{"start":13479.76,"end":13501.995,"text":"四月董事会现在是5月7号我们董事会还有会计还经过每一位董事的确认他有一个流程这个是我上次在质询台上面就是一个要解冻案的先决条件那意思说我如果今天坐在这个地方不提出这个部分你四月份开完董事会我现在不提出你就不会给我了吗"},{"start":13502.588,"end":13522.866,"text":"不會啊 我們這些東西還沒有經過 剛剛已經報告 它有一個process這個流程還沒有經過 我們會正式對外公開的所以你要make sure就是你裡面包含我剛剛所提到的有關於外包的製作費有關於這個113年就剩1億的這個預算延約這些都可以在你要給我的報告當中都會有清楚的呈現 是不是"},{"start":13523.186,"end":13548.118,"text":"有關於您所謂的外包製作費的部分我們現在馬上就可以做說明但有一個部分您剛才提到說延續這個部分其實公廣集團的其他的單位也都常常有一些預算因為這是影視製作裡面所發生的一個問題它不可能在所有的流程都能夠發生說確定的掌握所以它會在處理上它都有一些預算要保留到未來"},{"start":13548.638,"end":13558.669,"text":"所以他不是一個唯一的這個狀況那當然他們怕是這次數字是比較大那這個等一下原因什麼我們請那個執行長可以很快的解說一下好來麻煩"},{"start":13561.343,"end":13582.649,"text":"跟委員報告很快就是您上次有提到就是跟國際合作像是Discovery那個那最主要因為在台灣Plus成立第一年的時候還沒有在國外落地那在台灣Plus還沒有落地之前要委託Discovery來播映就需要當地的落地的這個費用以及當地的這個Channel的費用因此在第一年費用比較高的原因是在這裡那第二年之後我們就"},{"start":13583.469,"end":13599.963,"text":"減了變成七成的比例因為我們可以自行落地第三年就沒有再繼續合作這第一件事情第二個有關您講預算沒有完全用完是因為去年我們跟文化部申請到獲得是只有七到十二月也就是去年只有六個月的製作期所以六月製作期在"},{"start":13600.563,"end":13617.642,"text":"六個月簽約以後跟日本韓國啟動國際合作的簽約花了大概兩三個月才成案所以這一億多大概其中大部分是包含跟日本韓國新加坡以及跟歐洲的丹麥德國合作的費用所以他要一個negotiate一個談判期會比較長那今年六月以前都會完成"},{"start":13618.413,"end":13640.9,"text":"六月前都会完成那我是不是先呈现你刚刚解释Discovery的部分你说第一年当然付出的成本比较高第二年就会变成七成你说第三年怎么样我们就没有再合作续办了因为我们可以自己制字或者是做其他的节目来替代所以说两年还是花六千万目前为止你觉得这个部分应该是合理的吗"},{"start":13641.38,"end":13667.618,"text":"因为第一年真的是比较高因为它含在Discovery的频道我们在东南亚地区一共有大概六个国家播映这个费用他们有依照Discovery的报价那这报价都经过公共电视的采购合法的所以你应该告诉我们从第三年开始你就因为有了六千万的投资所以第三年开始你们就可以有办法自制了是这样的一个概念吗对 相关类似的主题我们可以自己来处理就没有再委托Discovery了"},{"start":13669.073,"end":13696.671,"text":"好 OK所以兩年六千萬這個部分好因為它東南亞上架費依照它的報價然後再經過議價程序我們依法再跟它所以你認為這樣的支出還是合理的其實國際的媒體的價格是有一定的行情我們就依照它的報價來處理好那你的問題有沒有得到解決好 那這樣如果沒有其他委員有問題的話那是不是我們第二案"},{"start":13698.038,"end":13710.788,"text":"就准予動之提報院會好那我們現在處理第三案第三案也是TOMPLUS還有這個公共電視的一些預算那凍結25%5億7千151萬2千元這案有沒有意見委員"},{"start":13721.513,"end":13742.413,"text":"好 那我們請吳佩奕委員有 這個第三在我們報告當中就是第307頁嘛 是不是這個因為我剛質詢的時候有提到當初的這個提案人是陳玉珍委員國民黨的黨團然後這個提案的理由是講台灣Plus但是其實這一筆預算的項目是公式"},{"start":13744.2,"end":13762.931,"text":"所以你看後面文化部提供的報告說明都是關於公視的業務內容因為有很多國人都很關切所以我還是希望可以請因為如果提案委員不在國民黨黨團的委員是不是可以來協助說明一下這當初的提案理由是不是有錯誌如果有錯誌的話我覺得應該要去說明因為不然這樣浪費大家時間其實我們今天不需要做這一案的專案報告的"},{"start":13769.935,"end":13777.842,"text":"因為這個裡面的內容根本跟台灣PLUS無關結果我們竟然在這邊看這個這個凍結預算理由跟用那種完全不搭桿的東西就浪費大家的時間所以我還是希望可以說明清楚有沒有國民黨的委員可以協助說明呢不好意思喔你們很多民進黨黨團提出來也不見得民進因為你不是屬於我們教文的委員也不是每一個黨團提出來你們每一個委員都可以回應喔對這個問題來說我覺得配議委員不需要直指國民黨的黨團的人"},{"start":13798.439,"end":13824.559,"text":"因为对于第三案来说我想第三案举手表决但是基本上面里面的一些内容的部分我还是讲你要我们要做这个部分我想陈玉珍委员当初是提案人他没有过来然后很显然就是他也看到了这个公示所以给予他的这样的一个回应他没有意见那请问我们需要个人还要再做出什么样的部分吗你好像直指我们必须要做出什么样的回应对"},{"start":13824.859,"end":13850.315,"text":"有需要這個有需要這樣子的一個必要嗎有需要這個必要那好那我們是不是候得住請陳玉珍委員過來的時候我們再來看看這案是不是要解凍我覺得這也是一種方法我想我在這邊個人要表達如果要這樣子的話那我們是不是就請當初的提案委員過來選擇陳玉珍委員我們到處是候在這邊嘛亂刪亂碰對不起那如果是這樣的話那我們第三個就暫時我對於解凍是沒有意見但是我還是認為必須要表達清楚因為事實上這一案今天是不應該再進行解凍專案報告的"},{"start":13851.756,"end":13856.978,"text":"因為當時提案的理由根本跟這個業務內容無關啊那如果是這樣子那我們尊重當初的提案委員我們當然不必代言當時提案委員來回答但是我希望大家可以就是了解清楚說我們現在因為我們不應該就是就是大家很鄉愿住在這邊假裝沒有這件事啊因為這個文化部提供的內容"},{"start":13870.283,"end":13876.749,"text":"公事內容根本跟當初委員凍結的理由是不同的啊那我要講的時候必須指出來那我們就請黨團請陳玉珍委員過來吧那我們就暫時候得住吧如果要是要這樣子你們剛剛也特別提到不需要其他委員代外回答的確這是委員會審查的一個機制我尊重不需要"},{"start":13886.977,"end":13908.524,"text":"我並不是要請委員代表回答但是我要表達我的意見沒有問題 可是剛剛配音的一個記錄對 但是你剛剛也特別提到說國民黨黨團要代表來回應嘛那我們黨團 我目前的提案就是說黨團可以代表回應的就是我們陳玉珍委員那我們是不是這一案就暫時候得住這麼大部分大家有意見來 呼叫陳玉珍委員過來吧等她沒有過來我們就暫時候得住這個主席你才是吧"},{"start":13909.164,"end":13928.493,"text":"好了我們先請范議員發言我真的覺得我們已經為了陳一貞委員浪費很多的時間那現在解凍非常的重要那但是我要講一下陳一貞委員一個人是沒有辦法讓一個預算的提案通過了是當天藍白都一起投票所以大家都有責任那今天我們個人我想我們剛剛吳沛委員是要表達一個很大的不滿跟譴責啦"},{"start":13932.935,"end":13945.255,"text":"那我們不想浪費時間那我想我們繼續下去那這個東西都會會議記錄那也希望大家可以廣為告知那我要再次提醒他的提案如果沒有藍牌的就是說支持跟舉手是不會通過的"},{"start":13946.94,"end":13963.646,"text":"好 我想伍佩奕委員很明顯啦就是對於當初的提案委員做一些這個譴責跟不滿那沒關係 我想今天我們就是實際上解決問題嘛我們今天就是要針對這個第三案來解凍那好 外媒林委員"},{"start":13964.506,"end":13990.391,"text":"我想我來補充一下因為我想我們在委員會在審查文化部預算的時候我也是召委那我們花了很多的時間我想不管是國民黨的委員或者是民進黨的委員或者是在當時我們民眾黨的委員我們對於每一筆每一筆的預算我們都盡我們的職責我們看得很清楚也問得很詳細所以每一個我們有刪除的預算或有凍結的預算其實在當時文化部其實也都接受"},{"start":13990.851,"end":14019.037,"text":"所以我想我們從過去到現在大家在這個教育文化委員會非常非常的久幾乎都是很久那我們其實都很認真在做喔那所以我想我再發言我們互相尊重一下因為呢我們教育文化委員會現在真的彼此都非常尊重啦那我也很這個贊成剛才昭緯所講的今天呢昭緯排案其實很清楚就是針對解凍案而且我必須要講我們各部會我們文化部的解凍案我們也是第一個出來做的"},{"start":14019.517,"end":14044.797,"text":"那針對過去就是小野部長我們林遠部長所提的有一些治癌難行的地方我們就馬上重新來審視那今天我們應該要趕快針對解斷的部分來看一看提出來的報告跟說明我們教育文化委員會所有這麼認真的委員我們能不能接受有沒有什麼地方我們是要再良性的告訴他說提出來的地方可能還不夠什麼地方要去再仔細再看那如果是沒有問題的那我們就把它解凍掉"},{"start":14045.498,"end":14064.696,"text":"这也是过去这么多届这么多年教育文化委员会一直来做的就是这样的事情我想没有人要刻意去刁难那当然大家对于事情的看法有不同的情绪跟表达我觉得我都是充分尊重但我是建议这个召委是不是能够回到我们在这个预算解冻的部分来做以上谢谢"},{"start":14066.052,"end":14085.288,"text":"好 那我們就實際上來處理這個案子啦 柯真委員那這樣子的話 第三案如果沒有其他委員有其他意見 那文化部是不是要回覆沒有要回覆 因為跟台灣plus跟安古回覆也差不多了齁那如果第三案沒有意見的話 那我們就准予動之提報院會"},{"start":14086.53,"end":14105.142,"text":"好 那我們現在來進行第四案 第四案是凍結50%然後凍結一億兩千八百二十六萬六千元那這個案子是公益中心優惠的凍結那有沒有 委員有什麼意見"},{"start":14106.704,"end":14118.077,"text":"那沒有 那我們這個案子就逐一動之 提報院會好 那我們接下來進行第五案第五案是凍結30% 凍結了5788萬4千元那是有關於人權管 人權管的相關預算 有沒有什麼問題"},{"start":14128.735,"end":14156.818,"text":"好 沒有那我們第五案我們就逐一動之提報院會好 我們進行第六案第六案是有關於也是人權管人權管的問題那有沒有委員有意見第六案是凍結三百萬元沒有好 沒有 謝謝那我們就逐一動之提報院會好 第七案第七案是凍結了五千萬元"},{"start":14159.435,"end":14160.658,"text":"是我們委員會的 對"},{"start":14163.174,"end":14187.966,"text":"沒有那個 對不起啊 第七案剛剛那個我們的胡董事長已經跟我解釋因為我就是在諮詢台上不但提到這個新創公司的這樣的一個意見雖然它不在預算當中但是那也是文化部來撥款給我們公視那麻煩就是請你們在這個成案之後就是未來是否可以在這個就是我們的公視董事會成立完之後是否把你們更細節的一個問題再交一份報告給本委員可以嗎第七案的部分"},{"start":14191.946,"end":14193.607,"text":"第七案是有關於影視及流行音樂的業務"},{"start":14229.721,"end":14254.07,"text":"OK喔 當然啊 對不對可以嘛 通過完之後就給本席一份更細節的一個部分嘛好 謝謝好 那藉由這個案子我也提醒一下就是有關於這個華氏資產活化的這個問題喔我想這個問題其實部長也對這個事情有很大的這個想法所以我想這個應該是要好好的在"},{"start":14255.27,"end":14279.814,"text":"進步的思考那個資產要怎麼樣去這個看是不是要買回民股或者資產要怎麼樣活化我想這個應該要在你的院內要來解決這個問題不能這樣放著不管部長OK好 那這個案子第七案如果沒有意見我們就遵禦動之提報院會好 第八案第八案是凍結五千萬元"},{"start":14285.501,"end":14298.905,"text":"是有關於對 有沒有意見傳譯中心好 那如果沒有意見的話我們就準以動之提報院會第九案第九案凍結了30%凍結了8億6607萬6千元是文化部"},{"start":14308.652,"end":14334.086,"text":"全部的業務費 八億多好 有沒有委員有什麼意見 第九案好 那我們文化部的業務費我們就解凍好 主委動之 提報院會第十案 第十案是凍結了一億兩千七百三十萬六千元第十案有沒有意見"},{"start":14336.408,"end":14351.804,"text":"好 沒有意見 第十案是公共藝術經費喔好 那沒有意見我們就逐一動之提報院會第十一案 十一案凍結了30%凍結了兩億三千八百四十一萬四千元是有關於文資局"},{"start":14353.615,"end":14367.461,"text":"文資局的相關預算有沒有意見好 那沒有意見我們就諸語動之提報院會第十二案 凍結30%凍結了1億7千2百5十萬第十二案是傳譯中心業務費好 沒有意見我們就諸語動之提報院會第十三案凍結了1億1千3百5十7萬5千元是有關於國美館業務費"},{"start":14384.462,"end":14394.654,"text":"好 沒有那我們就終於動之 提報院會第十四案 凍結了一千萬元是有關於這個是我們委員會的"},{"start":14399.773,"end":14421.92,"text":"第14案我有意见好我们柯子恩委员因为这个委员会的部分我不是说要如何我只是希望因为部长当初也特别提到了嘛这个一次12块你自己是个受害者嘛对不对部长还记得我们之间对话那我还是要了解说到底这样子的部分里面电子书的部分里面明年要怎么去做那"},{"start":14422.58,"end":14448.522,"text":"第一次質詢的時候我們就希望部長能夠跟出版業者來做一個座談那我不知道部長到底跟他們談了沒有到底舉辦多少場能有多少的出版社來做一個參與因為最主要原因是計次案最主要的目的是我們要擴大來做閱讀但不代表其中隱藏的這個問題是可以不用去改善的所以我覺得一次十二元看起來是已經沒有辦法撼動文化部的一個政策"},{"start":14448.982,"end":14469.023,"text":"但是我还是希望文化部能够提出比较有效的一个辅导的一个策略可以增加出版业因为出版业真的是寒冬已经增加出版业的一个收入不然出版业真的赚得非常的卑微这是我要特别提出呼吁的还有一个就是说有些时候你们在这个补助的部分当中很多时候"},{"start":14469.924,"end":14488.988,"text":"一些中小型的而且有很有特色但是很努力的這個出版社就好像拿不到這些的補助對他們來說也是非常的辛苦的所以我們只希望在這個文化產業上面真的是這個雖然已經沒有辦法拿到很多你看你現在告訴我就說你已經增加了133萬好像增加了9.6%但是加數也增加了9家"},{"start":14492.549,"end":14516.145,"text":"所以你没有办法拿到更多的补助要加入新的出版社变成一个州增多但是和尚更多嘛那你这个部分没有办法这个让出版社在文化产业里面有很多的贡献我觉得这个部分你们给我的回应当中我需要有个更具体的这个层面特别在电子书层面了特别说在这边书场会说在这边我当时想到第九届的时候我们曾经为这个出版业其实着力很多你有没有发现"},{"start":14516.946,"end":14542.447,"text":"第十一屆坐在這邊講的也是同樣的問題好不好請妳發表一下妳也是要請文化部多多來努力一下為什麼我們第九屆講的事情到第十一屆講的還是一模一樣妳沒發現好不然妳坐在這邊幹嘛不讓妳發表一下好像也對妳說不太多她等待臨時提案在議委員好好好好我們是不是妳還有便當可以吃我們都還沒有妳要不要吃一下文化部要不要回覆柯之恩委員的問題"},{"start":14547.284,"end":14575.406,"text":"你可以先回答一下然後你細節部分給我書面資料因為我覺得出版業真的是相當相當的辛苦啦好不好我知道你有更細節但是你現在有什麼問題可以趁這個時間也稍微說一下因為都有會議記錄的我沒什麼問題我只是努力其實我們到今年我們的所有那個補助啊策略其實只有增加沒有減少那出版業本身的感受也有覺得這一兩年我們給他們的活動費還有補助是更好的那你說韓東"},{"start":14576.727,"end":14595.099,"text":"它是整個出版都一直在往下滑跟電影一樣但是我們努力的在從去年到今年的補助是有增加我們是不是請市長報告一下好 那劉淑冰委員要發言 來"},{"start":14596.377,"end":14618.824,"text":"好 這一案的因為國家語言政策上邊凍結的理由是說希望跟國科會要密切合作充實TIDE的模型資料庫跟國家語言的應用想要目前了解一下我知道國科會是在開發這樣的一個資料庫而且我們實際上去參訪的時候有看到那可以提出來目前國家語言研究中心這邊對跟國科會的合作是什麼情況嗎簡單說一下"},{"start":14625.356,"end":14652.327,"text":"因為它好像在運用方面沒有被推廣這個中心並沒有還沒有成立因為那個法案還在立法院所以還沒有成立這個中心那為什麼會寫那已經說起來就如何整合現在都還沒有成立這個中心啊送到那個立法院還沒有審還沒有審對不對那為什麼因為它那個中心一旦設立它是個蠻大的蠻大的組織"},{"start":14653.717,"end":14679.504,"text":"好 那我們立法院可能這邊叫我們要再去就是財務議程再討論這邊那要成立起來才有可能對 沒錯要司法法制對 就是我們跟司法法制聯席對好 那就請昭緯或是兩位昭緯就是幫忙就是在這邊跟我們語言交易但是我發覺他還包括的是在原住民語言上面蠻重視的這邊是好事情好 謝謝好"},{"start":14681.425,"end":14693.954,"text":"好我們再來那如果這個是案沒有意見的話那我們就主語動之提報院會好再來第15案15案是凍結了1500萬元是有關於綜合規劃業務對國內團體的獎補助被凍結這個案子有沒有意見沒有好沒有意見那我們就主語動之提報院會第16案16案凍結了100萬元沒有"},{"start":14709.881,"end":14728.909,"text":"文化資源業務講到一百好輕鬆好沒有意見好那我們就準以動之提報院會第十七案凍結了三十趴一億兩千零四百一十萬八千元第十七案是有關於影視局的業務費"},{"start":14730.765,"end":14758.217,"text":"有沒有意見好 沒有意見好 那我們是七案也准予動之提報院會第十八案十八案是有關於這個國立台灣博物館凍結三十趴六千控七百五萬好 沒有意見好 那我們這一個案子也准予動之提報院會第十九案有關於國立台灣史前文化博物館"},{"start":14760.624,"end":14767.01,"text":"凍結了30% 5455萬2千元好 沒有意見齁那我們就主語動之 提報願會最後案 20案 台灣文學館凍結30% 5216萬2千元 沒意見好 主語動之 提報願會"},{"start":14783.51,"end":14800.126,"text":"好那我們接著就來處理臨時提案喔謝謝各位我們這個凍結案處理完畢臨時提案今天有兩案那我們請宣讀臨時提案第一案建議近期泰國藝人林光來台舉辦這見面會引發嚴重黃牛票爭議"},{"start":14805.441,"end":14829.812,"text":"引發社會廣泛關注然文化部對此回應指出依文化創意產業發展法之規定所謂藝文表演票券續指音樂、戲劇、舞蹈或其他形式之現場藝文表演並未將見面會、握手會等於偶像與粉絲互動性質之活動納入範疇致使此類票券無法受到本法第十條之一對黃牛票行為之規範"},{"start":14831.634,"end":14835.643,"text":"為實際見面會與握手會行事活動行事多元常態包括"},{"start":14837.81,"end":14861.527,"text":"歌唱 舞蹈 談話與舞台互動等現場表演內容其本質應屬於藝文演出這一環若以現行定義排除四類演出不僅無法有效二子詞類活動 黃牛現象亦以現行藝文產業脫節 致使法律出現漏洞因而影響台灣消費者權益 原此請文化部盡釋原意"},{"start":14862.307,"end":14891.081,"text":"文化創意產業發展法第十條之一明確將見面會、握手會等活動形式納入藝文表演定義之範疇使相關票券之交易與轉售行為得以依法管理並強化藝文演出市場秩序以觀眾權益保障提案人張雅琳、吳佩儀、陳秀寶、吳立華、李瑾、范雲、黃婕第二案文化創意產業發展法"},{"start":14892.338,"end":14909.988,"text":"修正條文於去年5月修正通過其中特別因應社會事件以及產業變化通過的打擊黃牛以及投資內容產業應享有租稅優惠的相關條文其中本法有關打擊黃牛之立法條文第10條之一於2023年6月2日實行"},{"start":14912.609,"end":14929.149,"text":"然近期卻出現貴部對於藝文表演的僵固解釋認為粉絲見面會之形式非文化創意產業發展法所規範之範圍然藝文表演形式眾多粉絲見面會脫口秀音樂會等皆為形式之一"},{"start":14929.77,"end":14945.12,"text":"因此建議貴部認定藝人表演時應以是否有售票行為為認定標準並積極打擊黃牛票券確保藝人表演票券正常流通提案人 蘇巧慧 吳佩儀 黃婕 倪怡瑾 陳秀寶 范雲 張雅琳選讀完畢"},{"start":14948.356,"end":14968.589,"text":"好我們現在處理第一案第一案提案員是張雅玲委員雅玲要不要提案說明一下好最主要就是說因為其實現在的見面會的場次非常非常多而且是年年增加那其實這裡面大家也可以非常清楚的看到大家在炒作這個見面會的一個黃牛票的問題所以我會認為見面會雖然好像"},{"start":14971.451,"end":14998.514,"text":"在現在的藝文表演票卷上面文化部認定他並不算是這個藝文表演但事實上在許多的見面會裡面都有許多表演不然是歌唱啦音樂戲劇等等而且因為作為一個演員他跟粉絲互動的一些方式就是透過這些表演的形式所以我還是希望我們文化部可以來把這件事情納入不然這樣等於是讓黃牛有機可乘啦這就是個很大的漏洞"},{"start":15000.401,"end":15023.642,"text":"好 我們黃協委員好 謝謝那我補充說明一下因為其實大家知道說現在的見面會啊 牽手會啊其實它表演的形式非常的多元然後甚至是有的是你買的時候並不知道現場會有什麼表演它可能是包裝在它的驚喜裡面它可能現場會有一些"},{"start":15024.142,"end":15050.858,"text":"舞蹈或是歌唱或者是它有更多多元形式的表演是粉絲的所以如果你現在沒有辦法放進去的話到時候這個黃牛的猖獗等於完全沒有辦法處理到我們當初文創法修法的意旨那再加上說如果你們是事後才認定那請問粉絲是要先買了這個黃牛票到時候你們認定了他們再來救濟嗎"},{"start":15053.263,"end":15077.506,"text":"所以我不太知道說當這些事情已經在發生了那到底要怎麼處理呢是你先到底是鼓勵粉絲事後再檢舉還是說事前就先不要買那事前不要買是請問是粉絲都不能去參加見面會不能參加握手會簽名會嗎是不是可以給大家一個指引所以我比較具體的建議還是既然"},{"start":15078.703,"end":15095.08,"text":"表演的形式就非常多元那是不是把這些見面會握手會這種只要是售票的行為如果售票的藝文表演如果它有轉售然後加價的行為都把它納入在黃牛開罰的範圍裡面呢"},{"start":15098.22,"end":15103.649,"text":"OK 我想知道因為第一案跟第二案這個內容幾乎上是一樣的所以我們就一併討論好不好所以我們先請我們再請第二案的蘇巧慧委員來再來是范雲委員好 謝謝"},{"start":15113.524,"end":15134.271,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席英明我就是覺得應該兩岸乾脆一起說就好了我想我們今天不管是張雅玲委員的提案或者是我的提案其實我們簽名的各位委員幾乎兩岸都是一樣的代表了蘇巧慧 吳佩奕 黃婕甚至林玉璟 陳秀寶"},{"start":15138.563,"end":15154.704,"text":"這所謂大家的委員齁其實都是認為現在的藝文表演活動的形式其實有非常的多甚至是新增的包括像現在所謂的見面會握手會甚至是粉絲這個這個"},{"start":15156.446,"end":15183.066,"text":"粉絲見面會 脫口秀 音樂會都是藝文表演活動的形式之一而已那麼我們在跟文化部今天在討論以及爭執的就是我們在處理社會上大家厭惡的黃牛行為我們創立了這個我們創設了文化 文創法那這個法到底能不能包含這種這麼多元類型的活動"},{"start":15184.207,"end":15187.07,"text":"那針點就是我們認為他是藝文活動而且是表演活動那應該屬於本條本法規規範的項目裡面所以他是會被處理的黃牛行為那可是文化部舉"},{"start":15199.104,"end":15222.7,"text":"当时第十条之一的立法理由来跟委员们讨论辩证说当时在规定这些所谓的表演活动的时候是有明确的指出他用第二项来说本条所称艺文表演票券只针对现场演出之音乐戏剧舞蹈"},{"start":15223.741,"end":15247.696,"text":"所以如果一場表演裡面 沒有音樂 戲劇 舞蹈就不算表演我覺得這是非常荒謬的說法為什麼呢 因為當時的這個 十之一的立法理由其實在音樂 戲劇 舞蹈的後面就有或其他形式 四個字啊 白紙黑字啊其他形式之藝文表演活動"},{"start":15248.576,"end":15275.007,"text":"然後我們再看到第三項第四項當時的立法理由清清楚楚的說鑑於文化創意產業之蓬勃發展相關藝文活動日趨興盛逐漸成為人民生活不可分割的一部分因此針對藝文活動的票券政府應建立健全的市場機制以促進文化產業之發展及保障民眾禁用文化的權利這就是我們本法規定的目的"},{"start":15276.528,"end":15291.448,"text":"所以我們的定義我們的目的是這樣然後我們要第四項甚至是考量以高價轉送藝文票券謀暴力的行為嚴重傷害消費者合理票價參與藝文活動權益我們的立法目的是這樣當時在立法的時候以"},{"start":15291.969,"end":15315.363,"text":"列舉的方式把音樂、戲劇、舞蹈列在其中然後後面還加了一個概括的或其他形式怎麼會今天用立法理由的三項列舉來把其他的新興項目排除在外呢這真的是非常荒謬的理由而且我說實在的剛剛如果舉例說今年什麼二月玄冰見面會然後兩千元"},{"start":15317.884,"end":15340.392,"text":"那這個因為他只有握手啊 簽名啊所以就不算表演各位 有人會相信玄冰站到那個舞台上不是表演嗎玄冰的一舉一動 穿什麼衣服 笑不笑其實跟粉絲的眨眼都是表演啊怎麼會有人認為這不是表演呢好 那你再說 如果你真的認定他不是表演你說那他就不能用文創產業來罰"},{"start":15342.173,"end":15366.588,"text":"那如果選兵這張兩千塊的票變成是兩萬塊錢了那請問你要用什麼來罰?用社會法嗎?你不覺得這很荒謬嗎?所以我們今天這些委員在這裡跟你討論的是現在社會上有非常多元形式的藝文活動正是應該用當時十之一的立法理由裡面的或其他形式被列入在該法規管轄範圍之內"},{"start":15368.689,"end":15396.908,"text":"以遏止社會上大家痛恨的黃牛行為就這麼簡單而已我不曉得文化部在抗拒什麼好喔 我們再來請范雲委員剛剛蘇巧惠委員已經說明得非常清楚了那我想既然當時我們為什麼會有這個十條之一就是希望處理這個大家禁用這些表演活動的公平權益那條文說明又有一個其他形式之異文表演活動"},{"start":15398.028,"end":15425.781,"text":"所以我想你如果去問所有關心文化產業的人問說見面會粉絲會算不算大家一定都會說算嘛因為他怎麼可能沒有表演那搞不好還唱了一點點歌所以我覺得那重點是你們這裡是現場藝文表演重點是現場嘛那所以我想文化部不要因為工作量的緣故因為從我們來講的話其他形式當然就包含這個見面會跟握手會那以上"},{"start":15427.657,"end":15435.517,"text":"好 看起來我們委員會的委員都充分表達文化部是不是來具體回答一下對於這兩個提案"},{"start":15436.325,"end":15461.883,"text":"好 謝謝 先謝謝各位委員幫助我們把所有的這個這個預算解凍了但是我自己回顧當年這個文創文創法其實是要強調創作然後保障這個創作那這個跟黃牛這是兩件事情我還是希望要以現場演出主體為售票但是因為為什麼我覺得"},{"start":15463.269,"end":15488.723,"text":"見面會 握手 有沒有唱歌我還是認為它是一個商業行為它不是一個創作行為它是要盡量吸收本事它在做的是商業行為我不覺得它是一個創作行為雖然各位每一個委員都這樣想但是我要表達我的個人看法我們是文化部我們再做下去我們變成黃油部我不是怕我們工作增加"},{"start":15491.049,"end":15515.212,"text":"他的表演形式各式各樣 我們可不可以個案處理因為他握個手 玄冰站起來 他穿著衣服設計OK 他就是要商業嘛 他就是要賺錢嘛他有什麼文化創意呢他所有的行為都是商業啊他所有行為都是商業 跟文化有什麼關係呢"},{"start":15517.165,"end":15532.152,"text":"流行文化但是它本身是他們在經營粉絲啊我們的文創法當年三國通過很多的戲劇作品很多的戲劇表演去累積了它的那這些戲劇表演不就是以其中的我們所說的藝文表演"},{"start":15534.064,"end":15559.038,"text":"沒關係沒關係 雅玲你繼續講我是表達我個人看法因為我覺得他們在經營這個藝人在經營這個藝人用各種方式見面拍照握手唱兩首歌它就是一個商業行為它不是一個文化行為它不是一個文化創意當年我們在通過這個法的時候我是沒有參與因為我現在才接手可是我現在重讀這個法律當初文創法是要保護文創的"},{"start":15560.279,"end":15576.718,"text":"它是保護文創 這個跟黃牛沒有關係館長 我個人的看法這個叫文化創意產業發展法產業 重點是產業它或許不是您認定的文創可是它是文創衍生出來的產業"},{"start":15578.817,"end":15583.161,"text":"好 我們請佩玉委員然後再來請佩玉委員我想每個人對於文化都有主觀的認知跟想法那這也是為什麼我們需要文創法規所以我覺得還是回到法規面的定義來看那剛剛前面蘇喬惠委員有提到了過去十之一條的立法理由"},{"start":15601.698,"end":15619.835,"text":"我們認為依現在現行文創法法規條文本身以及當時立法制理由應當是沒有排除其他形式之現場表演活動的黃牛售票行為納入文化部來主管這一點我想應該跟部長也可以有共識"},{"start":15620.856,"end":15632.203,"text":"但是再來我覺得回到法規裡面來談再來就是在行政裁量權上面接下來文化部有沒有要把這些其他形式剛剛部長你也同意認同有些可以個案來認定代表是可以有討論空間的有討論空間的"},{"start":15636.425,"end":15641.168,"text":"是不是也認同要去演你回去討論嘛到底有多少樣態見面會只是其中一種我們剛剛講的我今天講質詢講這個太白的影劇人員這也是其中一種樣態非常多所以文化部是不是可以今天我們有一個共識基於委員的提案我們認為現在"},{"start":15653.897,"end":15673.124,"text":"回到當初十之一條立法理由音樂戲劇以外音樂戲劇舞蹈以外還有其他形式的現場表演活動這一點我要不回去研擬倘若有黃牛售票行為也納入是否納入文創法來管理部長剛剛如果你也認同說有個案來討論空間的話"},{"start":15676.225,"end":15685.333,"text":"我認為就應該要去文化部要接受 回去來研討更多的樣態我們回到法規面來談因為我跟你對於剛剛講的文化創意可能想法就不同彼此尊重但是應該要回到法規面來談以法規面來說是沒有排除對 我沒有完全排除其他樣態的喔是不是 部長回到法規面沒有排除嘛"},{"start":15697.402,"end":15718.851,"text":"演繹這個內容到底到什麼程度算是表演 算是文化我剛才強調的是它內容各式各樣你說拍個照 握個手它的形態太多樣我們把它一股腦全部拉在我們的法案裡面你可以想像我們將來要怎麼去判定它真的蠻困難"},{"start":15721.656,"end":15726.478,"text":"好 謝謝主席我認同剛剛佩儀委員說的我真的要拜託文化部待會去研議我們今天坐在現場的人的平均年齡可能是40歲"},{"start":15746.977,"end":15763.195,"text":"我們是不是主要的文化產業消費者要看我們過去的生活經驗跟我們的成長經驗可是如果我們只用我們自己的成長經驗跟生活經驗來看待現在跟我們不同年紀族群我指的是可能是40以上40以下"},{"start":15763.996,"end":15784.759,"text":"不同年紀族群的消費在文化產業的這件事情是不是我們認為的文化那大家可以討論個三天三夜講不完所以我要談的是我手上有一個這個我不知道部長您知不知道它是非常重要的在兒童文學界裡面非常重要的經典角色它叫Miffy"},{"start":15785.987,"end":15809.114,"text":"不認識兒童文學的人可能以為它就是一個IP嘛它就是一個好可愛的小兔子嘛它就是我在某某文創園區辦周邊的時候我會去買的東西但是回到兒童文學界它剛開始是一個非常重要的角色它站在理解兒童的角色上去做這個故事可是等到這個故事它有不同的價值的可能性的時候周邊商品的廠商就會過來了"},{"start":15811.095,"end":15830.214,"text":"部長你記不記得我們之前在省文化部預算的時候你發下一個好語你說要讓台灣的動漫產業在三年五年內走上跟日本一樣的國際發展但是部長你可知道如果你以日本的動漫產業為例你可知道日本動漫產業它不是關起門來畫了IP就沒事了"},{"start":15832.276,"end":15847.529,"text":"他們在研究IP 研發IP的第一時間周邊廠商都已經進來討論了這個是日本現在的現實我舉前幾年一個非常紅的例子叫做鬼滅之刃鬼滅在畫的時候"},{"start":15848.69,"end":15866.024,"text":"創作者有發想出版商覺得是可以做的角色之後所有做周邊的 要做電影的要做動畫的要做各式各樣開發的人就已經進來團隊了所以那個漫畫家他絕對不是關起來做文化創作而已"},{"start":15866.744,"end":15886.205,"text":"因此它才會叫做文化創意產業如果部長您發酵的好語是深的希望成真我相信所有在座委員都希望成真的情況下請部長跟相關文化部的同仁要把產業發展的思維放進去不是只有文化創作而已"},{"start":15886.806,"end":15912.611,"text":"它才有可能產業化而我們在面對產業化的時候請不要再跟所有這些幫助我們發展產業化的商業廠商站在對立的角色商業跟文化在現在這個時代不可能分得這麼清楚我當然認同部長你說的文化創作是一回事但是我要拜託文化部待會去討論而不是在這裡就做出拒絕如果按照部長剛講的那個角色"},{"start":15914.131,"end":15928.217,"text":"現在每一個人手上假設每一個人手上我發一個MIFI這件事情搞不好部長你都覺得不屑如果你只回到兒童文學的角度來看你會覺得它是商品化的這個東西它可能污衊了這個角色在兒童文學當中的地位但是對我們來說"},{"start":15929.437,"end":15943.089,"text":"我再說一次所有要做文化創意產業的人在想的都是用各式各樣的方法跟行銷企劃讓這個角色的影響力深植每一個人的心中當這個角色發揮了影響力他才有創業的可能才有產業的可能但在部長剛剛您的回答當中我認為您確實忽略了"},{"start":15954.079,"end":15979.298,"text":"產業的多元面向在現在2025的當下它已經有不同的樣子了再回扣剛剛喬惠委員說的玄冰玄冰之所以站在舞台上有賣點或者是所有的明星站在舞台上辦簽名會有賣點都不是只是因為他每天出來裝可愛拍個照他一定是先有腳本先有劇本先有戲劇先有電影他才有後續的見面會如果未來"},{"start":15980.669,"end":16007.69,"text":"如果我們今天舉的都是因為國外的明星讓部長覺得聽了不舒服我要提醒部長台灣在發展台劇台流台灣電影的這些明星未來也有可能走上國際站在文化部的角度要不要協助他們做額外的創意的活動去promote這些角色promote這些演員是要的所以站在文化部的角色我再次強調站在文化部的角色當然要去想這件事情以上 謝謝"},{"start":16009.211,"end":16036.734,"text":"好我們再請蘇巧慧委員好謝謝我想這個我們繼續講下去其實可以講非常久尤其是我們在座的這幾位這個你可以說立法院的追星人都在這裡了那所以我也很感謝部長剛剛的回答已經就是比較態度上說可以至少可以研議這個感謝部長已經有打開第一步那我們等一下看看大家可以共同推進的結論是到什麼程度"},{"start":16038.235,"end":16051.063,"text":"但我在這裡因為這個是要必須留下記錄的所以因應剛剛前面大家討論我想我們還是再把這段話重申一下我們今天引用的法規是文化創意產業發展法它的第一條就開宗明義為促進文化產業之發展"},{"start":16056.966,"end":16080.697,"text":"建構具有豐富文化及創意內涵的社會環境運用科技與創新研發健全文化創意產業人才培育並積極開發國內外市場特制定本法第三條本法所稱文化創意產業指源自創意或文化累積透過智慧財產之形成及運用具有創造財富與就業機會之潛力"},{"start":16084.88,"end":16088.268,"text":"並促進全民美學的素養使國民生活環境提升夏裡產業從1到15是劣舉"},{"start":16094.943,"end":16118.797,"text":"16是蓋過 中間甚至是第五 第六都是 第五項是電影產業第六項是廣播電視產業所以我剛剛舉例的玄冰確實就是影視界的明星那如果他在這個框框螢幕上面 你說他就是表演那麼他走出了框框以後 到真實的世界裡面"},{"start":16119.858,"end":16122.84,"text":"跟你互動但這個行為需要售票的那這到底算不算是在文化創意產業裡面呢我認為當然是啊那這個算不算表演或至少是在當年所規定的十之一的立法理由的其他形式呢當然算啊這是我們的見解"},{"start":16143.897,"end":16153.727,"text":"我們今天如果因為這樣跟文化部還沒有辦法達成共識那我至少要期待文化部在一定時間內不但要帶回去研議而且在一定時間內要有結論好喔"},{"start":16158.581,"end":16176.661,"text":"好我們再請雅琳補充一下簡單補充一下就是說我知道文化部這邊可能會覺得說見面會的形式跟樣態非常多元那我覺得就是說因為見面會這的確是現在流行文化中非常非常重要的一個樣態"},{"start":16178.363,"end":16205.47,"text":"那是不是可以回去把所有的樣態盤點出來那我們再來看看說到底這個地方應該要怎麼來把它做納入可以嗎我們是不是可以用這樣子的方式來討論不然我覺得你說一條線切下去完全不討論完全不放進去我覺得這也不合理因為這不符合現在流行文化的一個發展對我可不可以講一點話短短的不然先請范雲講完最後一點再您再做一個結論好"},{"start":16207.591,"end":16211.972,"text":"是要跟部長對話一下部長當時講的是說我們要有這個當然一開始是要文化弱勢的還不夠產業化的協助他能夠減稅讓大家投入讓他更商業化更產業化那可是這個法條當時定義的文化創意產業裡面就有廣播電視產業流行文化產業所以是規範到的"},{"start":16233.936,"end":16249.793,"text":"那部長擔心的說文化部變成黃牛部是因為我們要解決黃牛的事情的時候當時主要都是來自音樂流行文化表演所以把它放在十之一嘛那是因為這樣子所以文化部感覺為什麼大家都關心黃牛"},{"start":16250.433,"end":16279.517,"text":"當然就是搶不到票商業化很成功的那我覺得您會有這個誤解是因為我們十之一跨在這下面可是回到這個產業裡面是包含流行影視文化的就不能說是只有創業的本來商業化程度高的就不在它規範內容內了所以我是想澄清這樣啦因為部長剛剛這樣講我擔心大家會有誤解那我們就回到當時的定義就包含影視流行文化都在裡面了以上"},{"start":16279.997,"end":16280.64,"text":"好 我們接下來請黃婕委員"},{"start":16283.015,"end":16299.268,"text":"那我在這邊還是要跟部長鄭重的說明啦因為剛剛部長的那一番話其實不只是對非常多的追星人是一個很嚴重的打擊也對於所有文化創意產業的從業人員是一個非常嚴重的打擊我真的認真建議部長你去參加一場見面會再來跟我們說見面會算不算在文創坊裡面涵蓋的範圍好不好"},{"start":16310.336,"end":16316.218,"text":"你完全不懂什麼叫做什麼叫做粉絲見面會它就是一個影視從業人員跟他的粉絲之間的互動它完全就是一個表演的形式啊為什麼我不懂為什麼在文化部認定的定義裡面會把表演形式如此的狹隘化為什麼會如此的甚至可以說是十古不化我非常的驚訝我真的非常的驚訝"},{"start":16340.014,"end":16367.312,"text":"因為在見面會裡面偶像跟粉絲之間多元的互動包括他可能會隨口唱一兩首歌他可能會隨時跳一兩首歌曲甚至是他有非常多就是應粉絲觀眾要求的非常多的可能一些影劇的畫面或者是說他有非常多元的跟飯撒等等的我不知道部長懂不懂"},{"start":16368.072,"end":16382.542,"text":"但是無論如何你剛剛講那一句說粉絲見面會不是文化創作只是純粹商業行為這句話真的對文化非常的不尊重難道演唱會就不是就是文化創作不是商業行為嗎各式各樣你們說的現場難道一場舞蹈的表演它就只是文化創作就不是商業行為嗎商業行為跟文化創作怎麼會是分開的呢所以"},{"start":16397.892,"end":16397.944,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":16398.995,"end":16427.163,"text":"我是覺得部長剛剛那一番話我建議你收回去因為非常嚴重這個聽在所有的追星人所有的影視的從業人員還有文化創意的產業人員耳裡非常的刺耳而且非常極其不尊重那甚至剛剛其實跟法規的內容其他委員都已經提過第三條裡面已經把各式各樣的文化產業都寫出來了在台灣一個影星一個非常有名的例如誰"},{"start":16430.208,"end":16452.419,"text":"蔡依林 許光漢 張惠妹這些他們難道沒有文化的成分嗎他們沒有帶動台流嗎所以這個怎麼會用一個商業行為去定義它呢所以我還是誠摯建議看是不是今天你們要回去演繹我們願意給你時間嘛一個月啊好不好一個月演你看看這些多元的樣態"},{"start":16454.178,"end":16478.87,"text":"那不要就馬上打槍我最後舉例一下那個Madonna她的超紅她在性別的流行文化上佔有非常重要的角色那蔡依林她最近的那個蛇蝎頭的造型也是非常有創意我看了覺得好厲害所以這個東西就是文化創意只是她商業化的比較成功那我們再來就請部長做回答"},{"start":16481.628,"end":16501.587,"text":"我想各位有點誤會你們對我有點誤會好像說我看不起商業看不起這個真的是誤會我來到文化部之後都把每樣東西都當作產業我從以前的工作都是到戲院看有幾票賺多少錢所以第一你們有點誤會了我純粹是想把它分類它屬不屬於我們這個"},{"start":16502.708,"end":16522.468,"text":"屬於文創法十之一由文化部來管第二你們對我有一點誤會因為我年紀比較大我74歲你們在跟我講話的時候有帶一點覺得我這個老頭子我怎麼會懂流行我跟你們講我也曾經是偶像我也曾經是偶像"},{"start":16524.336,"end":16540.594,"text":"對不起我這24歲去大學演講的時候是滿坑滿谷的人我知道什麼是偶像而且你們也不要不好因為我是74歲我知道你們現在講那個形式但是也不要因為我的年齡你們略帶諷刺"},{"start":16542.917,"end":16569.799,"text":"我有四個孫子他們才十歲他們會玩什麼東西我都知道我不會因為我的年齡而不懂年輕但那個見面形式你叫我去看他們表演我是一點興趣都沒有真的啊 為什麼叫我去看他表演為什麼我要去了解那個我一點都沒有藐視我沒有藐視三葉我也沒有藐視表演我只是想把它區隔說它屬不屬於文篆十之一法"},{"start":16571.308,"end":16585.506,"text":"那我願意帶回去研擬研擬的原因是因為我想知道這個法律當初怎麼定的然後我也想知道全世界對這樣的鑑別會是怎麼研擬的我只是希望你們不要誤會我的年齡"},{"start":16587.489,"end":16604.439,"text":"喔好像不是不是好像看不起年輕人那套玄冰怎樣怎樣不要這樣想我我非常年輕的我非常年輕的所以這件事情請大家不要誤會我只是就法律論法律OK那我回去研議好嗎然後時間"},{"start":16605.259,"end":16610.426,"text":"我簡單 我簡單部長你回應了嗎我簡單講一下就好我想部長我覺得大家可能在這個因為剛剛你有講一句話就是說他們只是站在那邊他們有做什麼表演我覺得在這一點上面聽起來我們聽起來"},{"start":16622.742,"end":16646.194,"text":"可能就會覺得好像有點貶低這樣子的文化但是你剛剛這樣說明這樣子我們理解因為我想因為現在追星人的文化雖然可能過去就像以前動漫這都屬於次文化可是現在其實有非常非常多的人關注啦所以我們剛剛只是想要多做這些說明讓部長來了解而已這樣子我們也要留紀錄我們很尊敬部長好所以剛剛都是解釋法條第一條第二條第三條"},{"start":16648.556,"end":16664.63,"text":"我也要澄清小野是我們當年的絕對沒有對部長有任何關於年齡的發言跟態度這個跟年齡都沒有關係純粹就是希望我們一起來討論就是到底文化產業怎麼樣更好拜託 謝謝"},{"start":16666.171,"end":16678.52,"text":"好 我們具體聚焦我們就聚焦在臨時提案上好不好那部長答應要研議所以基本上應該第一個案子應該就沒有問題吧要修改嗎就是把見面會跟握手會"},{"start":16694.079,"end":16695.521,"text":"後面哪裡都不要 什麼意思"},{"start":16715.36,"end":16734.414,"text":"因為你就是說目前我們想接受的是由於現場演出為主體但是其他的我們還有售票行為的但是至於剛剛講說那個握手見面那個我們與檢舉的個案來判定另外要不要進入到文化專業產業我們來研議嘛是不是這樣子"},{"start":16737.396,"end":16754.467,"text":"應該不是喔應該不是部長我們現在手上拿到的有這個有劃掉一些這個明確見面會形式這個地方劃掉然後有加籃子的這個版本是在我們剛剛這麼長的一段將近二三十分鐘的討論之前就拿到的那麼現在我們兩邊討論過之後"},{"start":16756.388,"end":16776.436,"text":"部長也充分了解我們的訴求那同時願意延誼了嘛那既然你是延誼了那是不是就是我們剛剛也是在講的就是見面會握手會了嘛只是延誼好不好那就是完全就是延誼就不要再糾結這些文字就是延誼委員提出來的提案我們先"},{"start":16777.436,"end":16802.791,"text":"劉卓紀委員也很清楚 延譯我們知道延譯是什麼意思啊我們現在沒有這樣直接納入啊好 那我們請常事次長 次長跟委員報告一下因為在最後的這一段裡頭因為寫的是要明確將見面會 握手會等活動形式納入事實上就是由委員講的因為形式非常多元所以叫明確將見面會 握手會納入的時候它反而是一種限制所以我們的建議 我們是寫等活動形式 等"},{"start":16803.351,"end":16831.302,"text":"所以我們會不會建議說可不可以不要有明確兩個字因為既然是延譯那就是將明確拿掉而已是嗎好可以我可以接受延譯後再做出沒有所以這整個來我們就是這段文字裡面一共就是原文只刪除明確兩個字這樣好不好就是我們張雅琳委員的提案只有我們可以再念一次好不好我們可不可以在這段再念一次就最後一段"},{"start":16834.123,"end":16860.146,"text":"好 原此請文化部盡速研議文化創意產業發展法第十條之一將見面會 握手會等活動形式納入藝文表演定義之範疇使相關票券之交易與轉售行為得以依法管理並強化藝文演出市場秩序與觀眾權益保障OK 好 我沒有問題好 那就修正通過喔好 那第二案要怎麼樣具體來修改因為第二案"},{"start":16863.733,"end":16886.195,"text":"是不是 見請貴婦言義認定藝文表演時 答答答答答答對啊 因為我也 如果我可以同意的話 我這邊見請貴婦言義好不好 我的言義來認定藝文表演怎樣怎樣然後 那這後面是我的建議嘛 以 我的想法就是最簡單就是以有沒有售票行為為認定基準嘛"},{"start":16886.855,"end":16899.458,"text":"因為藝文活動實在是太多了嘛形式也很多嘛所以我認為是用有沒有售票來區分是不是納入文創本法適用範圍嘛這是我的建議嘛給你研議這樣還不行喔這是我的建議啊我已經改從認定改成研議了嘛好那就後面那一趴因此"},{"start":16915.67,"end":16934.209,"text":"最前面應該是前年5月啦112年5月修正通過就第一句話就是文化創意產業發展系統就是它一個前年可是它是修正通過耶去年不是有修正嗎"},{"start":16935.564,"end":16946.589,"text":"是前面喔那應該是題目對 但是剛剛來溝通的時候有答應其實是在一個月之內要提出研議結果剛剛現在這樣兩邊都沒有寫上去了不要以為我忘記了"},{"start":16948.37,"end":16967.816,"text":"我有記得你來溝通的時候有說沒有然後我們不同意所以我們說一個月研議結果啊研議結果啊可以再討論啊對啊研議結果可那那兩個案子都要加要加在後面嗎後方一個月內提出結果啊一個月內提出報告啊要不然兩個月好不好折衷啊不是我們原因是因為怕會期結束了"},{"start":16979.253,"end":17002.445,"text":"可是會期不是要不一定會研會不一定會研會今年千變萬化誰知道千變萬化好 兩個月折衷嘛好不好 折衷兩個月啦 兩個月如果有研會的話好 那第一個案子喔我們就是在最後方加入於"},{"start":17004.042,"end":17004.623,"text":"兩個月內提交書面報告於教文會"},{"start":17016.513,"end":17038.796,"text":"最後一段原此請文化部禁訴於兩個月內研議文化創意產業發展法第十條之一這樣子是不是一個方法就是在第三段的第一句話的後面這樣後面就不用再寫那個教文會原此請文化部禁訴於兩個月內研議文化創意產業發展法第十條之一後面就都不用了"},{"start":17040.521,"end":17054.013,"text":"後面將見面會、握手會等活動形式我可以接受我們是基於對你的信任不然的話你只是兩個月內研議我要的是結果他會研議結果出來"},{"start":17057.536,"end":17060.478,"text":"那第二個案子第二個巧惠的案子我們就是倒數第二行的"},{"start":17073.724,"end":17088.303,"text":"第一句修正條文於前年五月修正通過去年改前年然後在倒數第二行因此建請貴部延譯加個延譯認定藝文表演時那最後"},{"start":17090.666,"end":17117.154,"text":"是不是在家 或者是次長有什麼比照剛剛次長的寫法就好 兩個一樣寫法的因此建請貴婦於兩個月內 延誼認定一文表演時就是都這樣 喔好 好可以 OK這樣子沒問題齁好 OK 好 那我們這個第二案子也修正通過OK 謝謝 謝謝提案委員好 我們接下來進行質詢"},{"start":17120.862,"end":17125.906,"text":"好 我們再請議事委員詳細登載在議事錄好 我們再來要請陳培宇委員好 謝謝主席 那有請部長 謝謝好 我們請李部長"},{"start":17142.944,"end":17167.946,"text":"好 謝謝部長好 委員好好 部長我們絕對沒有年齡歧視的問題我要再次重申這個立場非常的嚴肅好 我想要跟部長討論有一個案子是最近發生在花蓮的新城因為他們要蓋一個新建大樓是用國發基金結果在蓋大樓的過程當中發現有非常少見的大分科文化城市目前台灣最早的新石器時代群"},{"start":17168.667,"end":17191.256,"text":"那當地的議員跟文化局進而開了相關的考察會議很多專家學者說不要倉促搶救要嚴謹評估主要是因為在我們的相關辦法裡面呢如果有發現考古遺址在新建的大樓原地我們可以幾個方法一個是原地保留變更設計搶救發掘那目前可能最好的方法是原地保留"},{"start":17191.776,"end":17213.237,"text":"可是花蓮縣政府說因為這個錢國發基金來的不容易爭取很怕如果沒有往下蓋這個錢就不見了但是我們看到相關的文資審議跟辦法裡頭其實文化部應該可以有一些作為應該不要放任地方政府就做出倉促的決定在之前2018年南投埔里鄉為了設置鎮長歡迎您的一個電子看板"},{"start":17216.36,"end":17229.395,"text":"就破壞了當地的文資那已經無可挽回那我們很希望最近這個新的案例文化部可以有一些角色可不可以請部長回應一下就其實這個東西因為他全力在"},{"start":17230.376,"end":17253.709,"text":"那個地方政府所以我們其實已經知道這個事情我們請花蓮縣政府要按照文資法相關規定來辦理然後尊重審議會因為他會成立一個審議會專業審議這是在法令上但是在我個人來講這個真的是非常重要的一個發現六千年到四千三百年這個對台灣的歷史來講是非常重要的新時期時代"},{"start":17255.47,"end":17281.377,"text":"所以我想在我們權力範圍內我們會要求花蓮縣政府慎重處理這個好那因為我很怕花蓮縣政府只是被查報請文化部被查不管是審議會的專家委員夠不夠或者是可信任度夠不夠或者是有沒有請聽民意請聽當地議員的聲音我都希望文化部可以在合法規範的情況下積極的督導跟協助地方政府"},{"start":17282.017,"end":17303.831,"text":"好 謝謝那接下來跟部長快速討論一下文化幣已經上路兩年了那感謝文化部今年開始把年齡向下延伸到13歲這個事情非常重要可是相關政策我們都要來看現在實行的狀況第一個我們來看文化幣的消費點的分類我覺得有值得討論的地方現在把所謂表演藝術跟文化體驗框在一起"},{"start":17304.511,"end":17322.836,"text":"全台灣的體驗點15000多也就是佔百分之八十幾可是到底什麼叫表演藝術什麼叫文化體驗說實話現在的分類是不清不楚的根據文化部你們給我們的說明說所謂表演藝術跟文化體驗含了音樂表演視覺等藝術展演及文化體驗活動的"},{"start":17325.516,"end":17349.304,"text":"據點周邊展會市集活動票券售票平台可是如果我們要把這個文化幣消費的資料跟消費者的喜好變成未來產業發展或是文化部在擬定相關政策這些數據絕對是重要參考但是因為現在都混在一起了其實我認為光是你們文化部未來做政策規劃你們都會覺得很困擾到底這所謂的"},{"start":17350.464,"end":17372.969,"text":"一萬五千多個點混在一起到底是什麼狀況所以我認為這樣的統計沒有問題但是這個分類有問題所以才會得到這個統計數字這是第一個我覺得分類有問題第二個我們可以看到目前文化幣的消費點跟主要消費區域集中在台北台中高雄接下來才是另外三都新北桃園跟台南這是目前你們給我們的數據那我們來看一下"},{"start":17375.109,"end":17398.157,"text":"不同縣市的消費點我來抓一個最大的好了最大消費族群在圖書出版跟點位最多的表演文化藝術體驗這個變化量都不大可是表演藝術文化體驗的變化量比較大怎麼說因為縣市落差實在太大例如說在台北跟嘉義的獨立書店台中跟新竹的表演藝術文化部長這個相關數字你都看得見這些現象我認為剛好文化幣上路兩年了"},{"start":17404.119,"end":17427.504,"text":"我們應該要用這些珍貴的數字來看未來台灣在做圖書出版也好表演藝術及文化體驗不管是考慮到城鄉差距考慮到補助扶植產業各式各樣我們都要回過頭來看這些數據這是第二個方向提供給部長參考第三個我們來看領取率因為領取率其實對文化部應該最重要因為你們要知道達成率"},{"start":17428.164,"end":17448.469,"text":"現在各縣市的領取率全台灣是86%我們如果把不足80的標出來部長你這邊有看到台北市是不足80的可是我覺得有一個點很有趣部長你看一下台東是全台灣第三台灣台東喔台東它有全台灣第三多的文化幣消費點"},{"start":17449.929,"end":17478.577,"text":"它有2090個消費點僅次於台北4180個台中6796個第三名它的消費點是第三多可是它的領取率卻只有56%如果我們希望文化幣的發放是促成改善偏鄉跟城鄉差距的話我們應該要回過頭問台東有這麼多個點可是為什麼台東的青年領取率很低"},{"start":17479.597,"end":17494.667,"text":"我覺得我們有沒有機會來做這個分析跟研究或者是我們去做相關問卷去傾聽一下台東戶籍在台東那他可能是沒有下載也可能是他不知道或是他下載了之後他發現這兩千多個點他都不好用"},{"start":17495.467,"end":17510.944,"text":"因為我覺得很奇怪它的點這麼多是全台灣第三多但是它的領取率卻非常非常低幾乎是最低56%所以我剛剛以上講了這麼多我想要快速給文化部一些建議第一個我想請文化部把表演藝術跟視覺藝術單獨拉出來統計而文化體驗所含括的市集活動"},{"start":17516.57,"end":17535.262,"text":"票券消費平台要應該標示出來並且應該要在文化幣的網站使用報告上說明各類別的商家定義種類等重要資訊給藝文界參考也給文化部部內自己做政策規劃的參考還有我認為要設計相關的使用回饋問卷"},{"start":17536.423,"end":17552.895,"text":"因為已經上路兩年了錢已經花這麼多我認為相關的問卷會讓我們更加理解領文化幣的青年13到22歲他們的需求跟這些政策如何更靠近他們好 以上那部長可不可以給我們這個報告兩個月內我剛提了這麼多的問題"},{"start":17556.547,"end":17568.753,"text":"可以有兩個月內我們會往下推動謝謝妳的剛才提的非常有意思對我們來做一個報告一定需要的因為你們後續也需要做政策規劃好不好謝謝部長謝謝謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝陳佩玉委員部長請回再來我們請黃婕委員好謝謝主席我們請部長好有請部長"},{"start":17590.575,"end":17609.492,"text":"黃委員你好好 謝謝大家辛苦了要到下午這個時間那我還是跟部長再次的澄清一下絕對沒有任何年齡歧視的問題這整件事情都跟年齡沒有關係我相信所有的年齡層都非常喜歡追星都有各式各樣的追星的活動"},{"start":17610.393,"end":17628.507,"text":"那所以我今天也是想要藉這個機會再次的跟部長來請教那我這邊是一個已經是一個即將發生的個案因為他們5月10號就要賣票了那其實早上也有委員提到他們是一個泰劇的兩位女性偶像那即將在台灣辦粉絲見面會"},{"start":17630.288,"end":17650.209,"text":"那首先我要請教的是因為我已經跟文化部詢問過那也進行過調查就是這一家這個活動的主辦單位到底是這個澳門的超旗公司還是台灣的藝尚公司那文化部是跟我回覆說是台灣的藝尚公司可是邀請部長看我們這上面的這兩張圖"},{"start":17653.152,"end":17669.883,"text":"一個是官方網站上面的頁面直接寫到主辦單位超奇娛樂那右邊是一位粉絲去私訊這個他們認定的藝尚主辦單位他想要跟他詢問一些售票的一些細節結果呢這個藝尚跟他說你好如果有問題請詢問超奇娛樂說他們不是主辦"},{"start":17676.667,"end":17701.778,"text":"所以現在出現了一個非常大的問題是有這麼多接下來可能會遇到的消費爭議可是連主辦到底是誰都不知道是不是可以請部長在這邊再次的回去請文化部請我們同仁好好的調查因為這攸關接下來粉絲到底會不會遇到任何的消費爭議的問題因為現在的消費爭議就已經很多了幫我下一頁"},{"start":17703.752,"end":17720.269,"text":"那這個是第一個想要請部長幫我們回去調查的一件事情到底有沒有合法因為如果他是澳門的公司必須還要符合一些中港澳在台的一些的商業行為的規範嘛那也要符合兩岸條例跟公司法"},{"start":17720.649,"end":17735.673,"text":"那第二個是這個超級娛樂我們也去調查了他背後的負責人這個澳門人他其實是中國的一個統戰部底下共青團的成員那如果他的身份又這麼複雜的話"},{"start":17737.674,"end":17765.071,"text":"也還有可能會違反兩岸條例裡面跟中國黨務有一些合作的行為也有可能違反兩岸條例所以第二件事情想要請文化部接下來也回去再跟陸委會一起協助的部分就是如果這個超級娛樂背後有一些就是類似統戰他們有一些相關的合作的話是不是有違反兩岸條例這個也要拜託部長好 下一個"},{"start":17766.53,"end":17784.801,"text":"好那再來就進到這個整件事情最大的爭議點這個是直接在網路上的一個看起來是已經是黃牛的一個販售行為在還沒有開賣之前我說5月10號才賣票嘛可是在此之前網路上已經有人在販售囉而且還是加價販售"},{"start":17785.842,"end":17802.577,"text":"然後他們是一個中國的公司那所以台灣很多粉絲就很困惑說那請問我現在像這個已經明確的黃牛我到底要怎麼處理如果你說在台灣的主辦單位叫做藝尚公司的話那像這種東西到底該怎麼處理呢再看下一頁"},{"start":17804.291,"end":17820.223,"text":"這個是這兩張圖都是目前已經出現在這個中國網站上面的黃牛的售票資訊那像這部分到底該怎麼辦是不是先請我們文化部部長或同仁可不可以跟我們說明一下像這種情形到底該怎麼處理"},{"start":17821.325,"end":17848.276,"text":"好 這個問題其實我覺得蠻嚴重因為如果這件事情如果不面對未來會這種灰色地帶會一直生存所以我覺得我們文化部能夠了解就是其實我們已經開始進入跟經濟部什麼已經開始談將來下一步就是要跟陸委會經濟部來一起討論目前我們能做的就希望大家不要買因為它現在已經做成是一個它的操作是在境外"},{"start":17849.016,"end":17869.807,"text":"中國的操作然後剛剛委員有提供我們一個更勁爆就是他的這個負責人是一個有這種背景的有官方背景的那我一直是很贊成文化交流可是文化交流的另外一面就是文化滲透我們都了解中國現在對文化滲透是非常積極的"},{"start":17870.948,"end":17889.394,"text":"像这样的一个事情其实就已经有点接近了这件事情很严重那我想我们会积极的去跟陆委会还有经济部来了解像这样一个我们现在怎么制裁他在这么短时间内我们除了呼吁之外我们就只能追究在台湾的这一家善意这样"},{"start":17890.034,"end":17906.842,"text":"好 那所以所以我覺得接下來要趕快釐清因為現在其實文化部初步給我的回覆是說在5月10號官方開賣之前的所有的這些網站的票券都不要買嘛呼籲大家不要因為就等於是很有可能受騙上當"},{"start":17907.842,"end":17923.424,"text":"因為它等於就類似詐騙的行為了嘛對啊它不只是黃牛它甚至因為它沒有任何保障因為它不是來自官方的訊息所以在此之前也呼籲大家就不要購買了那一切的官方資訊以5月10號官方網站公告的資訊為主對嗎"},{"start":17925.188,"end":17941.225,"text":"就是第一個我覺得委員提出來之後這個馬上就會變成一個話題一個議題應該很多人會注意到這個地方好 就是第一個但是現在的問題是說很明顯現在這個上億公司很有可能它只是一個就是境內的代理"},{"start":17941.946,"end":17959.731,"text":"他是一個空的沒有實質在運作的所以如果接下來如果消費者有跟這個主辦單位有任何的消費爭議就例如說他售票退票換票然後有任何的可能有私下的一些黃牛的行為那我們是可以請這個易上公司出來負責的嗎"},{"start":17961.55,"end":17980.433,"text":"我們已經通知這個益善公司跟他講說這個所有行為包括他的iPhone要怎麼賣這些我們都提醒他萬一出事我們就追究好 謝謝部長的承諾這件事情非常重要因為直到現在官方網站上面寫的主辦單位都還叫做超期"},{"start":17981.514,"end":18003.923,"text":"也就是說他們大剌剌的把這個中國的網站這個澳門的這個家公司當然背後也是中國的一個母公司啦他直接寫說他是主辦單位喔等於是如果我們沒有去跟他確認說在台有一個合法的一個公司的話看起來就是我們讓一個中國的公司在台灣辦一個非法的活動喔"},{"start":18004.743,"end":18030.032,"text":"這個必須要釐清所以他沒有在台灣登記子公司沒錯他是違法的他在台灣沒有登記所以這件事情一定要讓更多人知道這個主辦單位他上面這個寫超期是不對的不可以這樣寫這個也要拜託我們文化部跟這個上億公司想清楚說你不能在台灣辦活動結果你直接用一個境外的公司直接大剌剌的寫你是主辦好謝謝那最後最後葉"},{"start":18034.332,"end":18055.454,"text":"好最後兩個就是我給部長看的一個示範圖這個是普信會的見面會然後下一個這個是李敏昊的見面會那其實從照片就可以很明確看到他們在演出嘛那所以我在這邊還是再次的呈置最後一次的建議就是我們剛剛也做成了臨時提案的建議"},{"start":18056.135,"end":18077.162,"text":"就是拜託文化部回去演你因為實質上粉絲見面會這種簽名握手會雖然是叫這個名稱但它實質上就是一個演藝人員的表演活動然後他們這種販售的售票行為其實往往都是更搶手的因為可能名額很有限因為要可以互動所以這種等於是小型的等於有點類似小型的演藝活動了那這種"},{"start":18082.465,"end":18098.26,"text":"這種因為它名額很少所以那種搶購的樣態更多那很擔心就是會有人從中謀利當然我們要杜絕這樣的黃牛一定是要更積極的查處才行那我也知道文化部非常辛苦因為檢舉量很大"},{"start":18100.402,"end":18118.51,"text":"然後跟各地的縣市政府的合作也必須要非常保持密切這非常感謝你們但是最後我還是希望這類型的表演活動它都是一種文化產業的型態那所以希望能夠適用文創法最後建議 謝謝部長謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝黃婕委員好 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大家早安 請主任秘書報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員12人 已足法定人數好 我們現在開會進行報告事項 請宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1994.079,"end":2020.788,"text":"立法院第十一届第三会期内政委员会第十六次全体委员会议议事录时间一百十四年五月五日星期一上午九十二分至十时十八分地点红楼二零二会议室出席委员黄建斌委员等十四人练习委员郑天才委员等二人练习官员内政部部长刘世芳其相关人员法务部参事廖嘉贤行政院消费者保护处文化部教育部环境部卫生福利部交通部等机关代表其相关人员主席牛昭记委员许婷"},{"start":2021.448,"end":2041.921,"text":"报告事项宣读上次会议事录决定确定讨论事项继续审查社会秩序维护法修正草案及十一案决议一第九条除第一项修正为下列各款之人之行为得减轻处罚一十四岁以上未满十八岁人二满七十岁人三精神耗弱或未满七岁及有听觉且语言障碍者外其余为于维持现行条文"},{"start":2042.581,"end":2063.435,"text":"二 第六十四条处序文修正为有下列各款行为之意者处三日以下拘留或新台币三万元以下罚还外于维持现行条文三 第七十二条修正通过条文修正如下第七十二条有下列各款行为之意者处新台币一万元以下罚还亦于公共场所或公众得出入之场所酗酒滋事漫麻喧闹不听禁止者"},{"start":2065.336,"end":2092.715,"text":"2.制造噪音或深夜喧哗,妨害公众安宁,不听禁止者。3.无正当理由,善吹警笛或善发其他警号者。4.第89条,除虚文修正为有下列各款行为之一者处心态弊,3万元以下罚还或申结外余,维持现行条文。5.审查通过这条文及相关法制用与授权主席及议事人员整理。6.并案审查完据拟据审查报告提报院会讨论,不需交由党团协商并推请牛召举委员许婷于院会讨论时做补充说明。7.通过"},{"start":2096.557,"end":2109.687,"text":"好請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處沒有好沒有錯誤議事錄確定謝謝繼續進行本日議程報告事項請宣讀邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況並備質詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":2113.496,"end":2139.859,"text":"好 謝謝現在介紹在場委員及列席官員委員的部分我們張志倫委員王美惠委員蘇巧惠委員以及黃婕委員官員的部分我們中央選舉委員會李靖勇主任委員好那我們就開始進行今天的這個業務報告我們請中央選舉委員會李主任委員靖勇進行業務報告"},{"start":2148.174,"end":2176.743,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生大家早安貴委員會今天舉行全體委員會議本人應邀列席報告業務概況並被質詢深感榮幸以下僅就本會在近期辦理各項工作分別報告如後第一是受理公職人員罷免案的提議從民國一百一十四年二月三號開始到二月十九日為止"},{"start":2177.463,"end":2200.441,"text":"本會受理立法委員以及地方公職人員罷免案一共有64案其中立法委員的罷免案是54案市長罷免案1案 直轄市縣市議員的罷免案一共有9案到114年5月4日為止 個案辦理的情形 詳如附表1請各位委員參閱"},{"start":2202.816,"end":2222.121,"text":"那說明如下一個就是立法委員罷免案54案裡面其中有因為領銜人或者是後被捕的領銜人不合規定而不予受理者有兩案因預期未補題提議人名冊不予受理者有兩案"},{"start":2223.781,"end":2247.835,"text":"選舉委員會查對連署人名冊中的有16案提議人之領銜人徵求連署中的有34案那這個數字應該要做一個更新就是到昨天下午下班為止選舉委員會查對連署人名冊的已經增加到20案"},{"start":2249.741,"end":2269.133,"text":"那第二點就是市長罷免案一案選舉委員會查對連署人名冊中直轄市縣市議員的罷免案有九案其中因領銜人不合規定不予受理者有一案連署人名冊查對結果代替本會委員會審議者有一案"},{"start":2270.134,"end":2280.497,"text":"提請 函請提議人的領銜人要補提連署人名冊者有1案提議人之領銜人徵求連署中者有6案"},{"start":2282.364,"end":2299.976,"text":"其次包括辦理全國不分區及僑居國外國民立法委員遞補作業到目前為止已經遞補本屆全國不分區以及僑居國外國民立法委員三人遞補的情形也請各位委員參閱副表二"},{"start":2302.679,"end":2313.432,"text":"其次辦理直轄市縣市議員的地補作業截至目前為止已經地補本屆直轄市縣市議員有14人地補情形相如不表3"},{"start":2315.612,"end":2340.573,"text":"再者報告受理全國性公民投票辦理的情形本會受理全國性公民投票案件一百一十三年七月到現在一共有六案其中有兩個案子經補正後仍不符公民投票法的規定所以就予以撥回其餘四案克正依公投法第十條規定審核提案之中"},{"start":2342.162,"end":2359.39,"text":"第五 全國性公民投票電子連署系統維護以及優化的作業全國性公民投票電子連署系統在113年的4月10日正式的上線本會依民眾回饋的意見持續辦理系統維護優化的作業"},{"start":2360.31,"end":2374.729,"text":"另外目前未有公民投票提案经审核符合公民投票法的规定所以到目前为止尚未有提案人之领衔人使用这个系统来征求联署"},{"start":2377.168,"end":2402.718,"text":"再提示報告公職人員罷免案電子連署系統整備的情形為了推動公職人員罷免案電子連署系統上線作業本會積極辦理系統功能的測試壓力測試網站弱點掃描以及滲透測試等等的整備工作本會將是全國性公民投票電子連署系統"},{"start":2404.358,"end":2424.591,"text":"實際使用的情形評估公職人員罷免案電子連署系統上限的事宜再其次報告辦理選務幹部人員的講習為了充實各選舉委員會專任兼任人員地方政府選務選舉業務主管以及承辦人等選務幹部人員的選務法規以及實務相關專業的資能"},{"start":2431.855,"end":2443.544,"text":"本會與行政院人事行政總署公務人力發展學院南投縣區合作辦理選務幹部人員講習114年度選務幹部人員講習預定在5月到6月之間來辦理一共是三期每期調訓的人數大概是40人"},{"start":2453.891,"end":2482.59,"text":"其次包括執行政黨連坐的裁罰本會從一百零一年四月三日起到現在裁罰兩百二十一件裁罰的金額累計新台幣一億八千五百一十六萬五千元受連坐裁罰政黨受政黨推薦候選人及所犯罪名以及裁罰的金額都請各位參閱副表四跟五"},{"start":2484.264,"end":2504.356,"text":"在其次 辦理選舉徵送的案件 目前還細數中的案件一共有最高行政法院五件 台北高等行政法院六件各該訴訟案件進行的進度 想要如附表六跟七"},{"start":2505.316,"end":2527.11,"text":"第十,参与国际选举组织的活动,积极参与世界选举组织协会A-WEB以及亚洲选举官署协会AAEA的活动。114年4月25日,A-WEB的执行委员会议在菲律宾马尼拉举行,本会是由王委员运儒代表参加。"},{"start":2528.691,"end":2555.593,"text":"114年5月9日AAEA的執行委員會預定在菲律賓馬尼拉舉行本會將由陳副主任委員朝鮮代表參加最後報告結語為貫徹憲法保障民主法治以及人民參政權之本質本會統籌辦理公職人員選舉罷免以及公民投票的事務如何營造公平公正公開的參政環境"},{"start":2556.614,"end":2579.697,"text":"為本會努力追求的目標本會全體同仁將群策群力秉持超然獨立恪守中立的精神依法辦理選舉罷免以及公民投票等各項的業務以確保人民真正意志的展現增進社會大眾對於選舉機關的信任感以上報告敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":2585.137,"end":2607.086,"text":"好 謝謝我們李競勇主委的報告報告委員會現在進行詢問委員諮詢前原例作為幾點宣告第一 每位委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘我們上午10點30分截止發言登記臨時提案截止提出時間11點與本會委員詢問完畢後處理請問各位同仁有沒有意見可以嗎"},{"start":2612.881,"end":2627.111,"text":"沒有 通常都是本會委員尋答完處理啦所以時間大概差不多啦那個是截止提出11點啦 但尋答完畢就會處理所以要提應該會早一點啦 好不好好 謝謝那我們現在進行尋答我們請登記第一位 蘇喬惠委員發言好 謝謝主席 我們請李主委李建友主委有請"},{"start":2647.346,"end":2658.357,"text":"主委好主委本席現在其實也是被罷免的當事人之一但今天本席還是會認真好好做好我的工作而且我不會針對個案性來做發問我問的是通案性的問題讓中選會可以確保人民正當的行使我們的選舉罷免權"},{"start":2666.636,"end":2672.658,"text":"所以第一題我要問的是說我們現在在網路上一直看到房間都有流傳甚至是新聞也有爆出來這樣的狀況說各地選委會會用此來查核二階連署書的名冊格式"},{"start":2682.842,"end":2691.95,"text":"那我看到中選會是在Facebook上面你們自己已經發過兩次的聲明說不會有這樣的事情那是在4月29號的時候你們中選會發的可是呢我們接下來看到在花蓮也好然後呢在台中也好甚至是前天5月5號確實又再看到了這樣的狀況說甚至是這次不是用詞了是用正本去套糧這個連署書請問到底有"},{"start":2710.785,"end":2731.973,"text":"沒有這樣的事情那周選會的態度是什麼請解釋謝謝委員的關心有關於我們連署格式這個查對的部分引起社會各界的關心那坊間也有很多的這個說法其實這些說法都是錯誤的訊息"},{"start":2733.373,"end":2758.141,"text":"好這說法是錯誤的但事實上有沒有發生我們先講我們我們知道可能會發生這樣子的爭議中選會事先就已經做好非常完全的一個準備希望就是一套標準各地選委會都按照這個標準一體來適用我們做的努力有哪些呢包括我們有這個"},{"start":2760.521,"end":2768.766,"text":"受理的這個茶隊的須知這個是規定這個是所以我們問題蠻多可能要麻煩你稍微快一點有作業的這個辦法有這個作業的手冊等等把會籍的包括相關法律的規定以及我們的函式讓所有從事這個茶隊的同仁他們很容易的"},{"start":2786.556,"end":2804.915,"text":"SOP都有啦SOP都有那我就只單純問你到底有沒有用尺去量表格或者用正本去套量表格這樣的事情發生這個完全是誤傳或者是有意的散播錯假的訊息所以在花蓮在台中都沒有現場都沒有發生這樣的訊息"},{"start":2808.584,"end":2821.993,"text":"曾經就是宋建仁跟我們的選務人員對於規格大家看法不一可是我們在新聞上看到5月5號台中選委會是有發生這樣的狀況啊這個新聞是怎麼樣"},{"start":2825.436,"end":2848.736,"text":"总选会对地方的选委会状态有没有了解我们了解我们有进行了解实际的状况还必须要等到他们回报上来不过最后就是我们得到的讯息是台中的事情经过沟通之后大家也共同认定后来是不受理的件数是39件"},{"start":2851.539,"end":2862.767,"text":"這39件裡面因為規格的問題因為規格的問題而不予受理的只有各位是三件或者是四件我們還在確認之中像這樣子的一個爭議其實我們認為是正常的啦"},{"start":2867.631,"end":2869.632,"text":"爲什麼中選會在聯署書的格式上面要做變化的原因是因爲到底空白幾格中間有沒有置中有沒有空白要不要置中還是往左邊對齊首格"},{"start":2886.603,"end":2889.225,"text":"這些都是為了在當場的時候你才拿出來的這個格式是確保連署不會提前偷跑嘛講白話文就是這樣的狀況對不對所以這是為了你的行政便宜行政便利的方式來做這件事情好"},{"start":2903.394,"end":2906.697,"text":"可是如果一旦發生現場是用齒距量這種人民完全沒有辦法去預測會有的狀況差0.1 0.2公分這顯然是不合理的狀況嘛對不對天可垂見完全是錯假訊息所以第一這種沒有嘛所以也不會發生嘛然後第二要不要用正本去套糧"},{"start":2925.652,"end":2928.493,"text":"目前你收到的狀況到底是有還是沒有因為你剛剛的答案是說我們還在等回報這個問題我們需要台中來跟我們做詳細的解釋這5月5號那今天已經是幾號了已經過了幾小時了那麻煩如果主委能夠像花蓮這件事情一樣能夠這麼明確的回答"},{"start":2943.698,"end":2949.301,"text":"我相信對各地的選委會是有更統一的標準啊為什麼呢 因為我們會很需要知道的是如果在現場因為這樣的形式而把這份連署書在現場就剔除了那它到底算不算行政處分現場能不能有任何的救濟方式還是要達到合議才能夠剔除這就是主委回到您剛剛說的狀況了嘛 對不對"},{"start":2970.435,"end":2979.465,"text":"你剛剛表示你現在告訴我說你還不知道現場到底有沒有用格式套糧但你知道現在被剔除的都是合意的對不對你剛剛的說法是這樣嗎在交涉的過程當中我們不排除他們用任何的方式一起來做"},{"start":2985.211,"end":3006.923,"text":"沒有關係我現在告訴你的是可以我現在告訴主委是中選會應該要對地方的選委會有一套統一的標準而這個形式絕對不是要嚴苛挑剔到故意刁難連署書的送件對吧這完全合理嘛對不對我可以很簡單的再重複一遍我們關於這個問題的一個處理的辦法"},{"start":3009.744,"end":3031.609,"text":"第一點當然我們強調必須要按照規定的格式提出這規定的格式包括標題包括欄位的順序包括長寬等等沒有按照規定格式提出來的那我們就不予受理是這個目的是為什麼這個目的就是要防止偷跑啦為了選務對啦這個是第一個是在時間上面防止偷跑嘛對不對不是中選會要刻意的刁難主委這是第一點第二點"},{"start":3037.87,"end":3040.634,"text":"第二點 我們也一再強調 容許所謂的公差好 不管副營 不管營業 不管是套路我們容許容許公差而且"},{"start":3054.472,"end":3061.197,"text":"這個是用肉眼去辨識好用肉眼去辨識絕對不會拿詞去單邊講不會用詞也不會用這樣套糧最後一點最後一點要特別強調的不要再說了那說了就沒人要相信哪有什麼丫頭在那邊扭什麼人的嘴不知道怎麼絕對沒有這個事"},{"start":3070.404,"end":3097.357,"text":"我是覺得中選會對刑事的要求如果如此的嚴謹的話那對實質的要求就已經明顯知道一般俗稱的幽靈連署也就是死亡前就連署的比例是如此的高至今相同的比例是如此的高這種實質的狀況中選會因為依照現行的法律沒有辦法做任何的處置"},{"start":3098.297,"end":3120.814,"text":"那麼我們就不要用形式駭攻中選會應該要能夠明白的要求各地選委會不能夠有不同的標準這主委同意啦我們除了就是如何辨識偽造有一些規範性的規定之外其實我們在實務的做法上我們是要求各地選委會兩個人一桌"},{"start":3122.896,"end":3138.557,"text":"兩個人一桌 一個是我們專職的選務人員一個就是縣市政府借調的人員大家共同來認定好 主委那我現在再問你另外一個我本來要問三題但是現在我可能借一點時間問一下我的第二題就好了"},{"start":3139.378,"end":3142.3,"text":"第二題的部分的話我想知道的是中選會在這個查核連署書的狀況為什麼沒有辦法直接把這個數字還有剛剛查核的各種狀況直接公開在網路上公告給全國人民知道"},{"start":3154.946,"end":3178.402,"text":"你知道我們現在要看到聯署書實質查核 剛剛討論的是刑事查核你說全國要一致了 我們都同意了 花了幾分鐘的時間那我們現在經由中選會去做實質的審查之後的這個資料為什麼中選會不能夠主動 公開 立即的在第一時間公告給全國人民知道"},{"start":3179.022,"end":3185.504,"text":"我們查對審核的結果都是經過委員會的審定我當然知道你們都是嚴謹的審查 我說的是審查結果記錄要經過確認 所以要過一個月確認之後我們就會上網公開了"},{"start":3195.888,"end":3199.81,"text":"那所有的報章媒體新聞都知道啊我們都是連委員都是透過媒體才知道我們的數字連我這個被罷免人我們也是要透過媒體才知道問中選會中選會給你的說我們等會議記錄會議記錄上網以後也一共只有"},{"start":3216.519,"end":3235.68,"text":"合格率就是合格幾件不合格的幾件所以裡面細部的資料都沒有可是我們來看新聞的部分新聞的部分你看看重複提議有偽造情勢與門檻差異提議疫前死亡的都可以公佈成這樣我相信全國人民都在看你不要說這個他資料來源中選會"},{"start":3237.543,"end":3241.827,"text":"他可以寫總統府啊中選會 這很清楚的狀況嘛中選會還有另外一種可以知道的方式就是立委所知啦那我覺得這樣子的狀況我覺得這個狀況應該是"},{"start":3252.279,"end":3270.518,"text":"中選會其實應該要很負責任的在第一時間就應該要出來如果你們是要透過會議的話那這是現在國家最大的事情你們要加速會議的時間啊加速公告的時間啊我覺得這樣才合理啊委員因為問政的需要像我們所知"},{"start":3272.719,"end":3294.076,"text":"這個結果只要經過我們的委員會審查確定的結果那我們是應該要提供給委員這個時候雖然還沒有上網公開但是已經經過審定了我們會配合提供給委員那至於媒體他從什麼地方得到這些訊息跟中選會真的是沒有關係"},{"start":3294.636,"end":3316.737,"text":"主委我現在就是本於我的權責跟中選會垂詢並且建議並且要求就像你的第六你的書面你的口頭報告裡面的第六點你現在正在研議的是公職人員罷免案的電子聯署系統整備嘛那你現在在說我們未來這些案子"},{"start":3317.017,"end":3319.88,"text":"可不可以用電子系統整備這要很長的時間給你時間但我認為以現在狀況全國正在進行的種種辦免案當中當中選會的實質審查出來以後應該要加速如果可以從至少一個月變成是一個禮拜"},{"start":3335.175,"end":3345.404,"text":"這個大家全國也感謝你啊三天更好啊這本來就是應該要加速讓全國人民知道的狀況而且應該是公開上網這是我的第一個要求方法你們去想這是我的要求甚至我還要求我們應該要讓全國人民都可以有一套系統就像大學聯好放榜榜單一樣嘛榜單出來了我就可以去查詢我簽的聯署單到底那個領銜人有沒有幫我交出去"},{"start":3361.778,"end":3364.339,"text":"有還是沒有 這對我來講很重要啊有沒有教 我這麼認真寫了連署但我應該有權利可以知道我的連署書有沒有被交出去甚至是反過來講我也應該要有權利可以上網去查詢那個連署的名單裡面有沒有我啊"},{"start":3378.487,"end":3396.104,"text":"我有沒有被冒名啊這樣不是一清二楚根本不用檢調調查嗎這個系統不難啊大學聯考各種學校招生聯考都可以做到我覺得這個反而是比你在研議電子連署更應該提早做到的啦我相信這個不難"},{"start":3397.845,"end":3412.71,"text":"費用也不高而且應該即刻就可以做主委你的意見呢那這技術上是沒有困難沒有困難啊我剛剛跟委員報告過我查詢我自己而已啊我有沒有我的聯署書有沒有被交上去我有沒有被冒名就這麼簡單我剛剛跟委員報告過的就是說我們的這個會議紀錄確認的程序是到下一次的委員會我們委員會一個月才開一次那就應該要提早照看"},{"start":3423.374,"end":3447.689,"text":"怎麼樣是不是可以縮短尤其是這種特殊民眾關切的這個事情就是國家大事了不可以研究縮短這個我們再來努力看看主委我要求啦我要求我具體要求具名要求我認為在這一段時間這是國家的非常時刻過去從來沒有過的我認為中選會的會議要加速召開不可以一個月只開一次啦要優先處理啦好謝謝謝謝委員指教"},{"start":3451.291,"end":3467.669,"text":"好 謝謝蘇喬惠委員 下一位我們請張志倫委員質詢好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位官員 各位媒體朋友大家早有請李靖勇主委李靖勇主委有請"},{"start":3474.486,"end":3492.342,"text":"好主委好再過兩週我們可以看到賴清德總統即將就任滿週年那我們不想看到的是說在這一年賴總統他的執政我們沒有看到什麼的表現只是不管是執政黨在野黨他不斷的鬥爭"},{"start":3493.863,"end":3519.221,"text":"那我們現在剛剛看到你的資料看得到今年這個罷免公職員的部分已經累積到六十幾案了那其實民眾眼睛是雪亮的其實民調顯示將近六成的民眾是反對現在這樣子的惡意的一個罷免因為台灣的人民看到現在不管是美國的高關稅以及新台幣匯率的升值的等問題"},{"start":3521.189,"end":3547.831,"text":"以及這個不管是中共的軍演等等兩岸的局勢很明顯的緊張其次升溫那我們不希望政府還在搞大罷免那尤其人民心中非常不滿去年才剛經過總統立委選舉那今年又要開始這個罷免選舉還要再加上補選明年還要再繼續這個縣市長跟地方議員里長的選舉其實這個選舉是非常的多人民非常的不滿意"},{"start":3548.812,"end":3557.681,"text":"那主委你從2019年上任直經滿6年了那不管是蔡英文政府直到現在賴清德政府只有賴清德政府"},{"start":3558.786,"end":3579.18,"text":"在執政的時候有這麼多的罷免案所以很明顯看出來這個賴清德總統是不是所謂的鬥雞總統鬥雞政府那本席在這邊是不是想請教我們主委的部分今年也是一個很特別的一年除了剛剛我講了這麼多的選舉最近這麼多的選舉今年還有一個很特別的就是公投的選舉那因為"},{"start":3581.763,"end":3596.185,"text":"罷免跟公投是否能綁在一起其實法無明文規定就像剛剛主委講的是由委員會來決定那公投法第23條第一項有規定公民投票日是低於8月的第四個星期六"},{"start":3596.866,"end":3619.542,"text":"那從民國這個110年起沒兩年舉行一次所以今年就是定在今年的8月23號那請問主委這是我一個比較這個卑微的請求因為今年本黨也有提出兩個公投案現在正在審查中現在正在提案中就是反廢止跟反戒嚴的這個公投案那請問主委"},{"start":3620.663,"end":3648.446,"text":"今年的這個所有你剛剛講的這個罷免案有沒有辦法跟公投案綁在一起那因為這樣子是可以節省很多的行政成本以及這個人民的納稅錢那我聽說如果沒有綁在一起每投一張公投票可能要花人民一千五百塊的納稅錢是不是有機會請主委在這邊表示有沒有機會這樣我們今年這麼多的罷免案可以跟公投案綁在一起請主委回答"},{"start":3648.646,"end":3665.444,"text":"好謝謝委員的指教有關於公投的部分如果是立法院做成決定交付中選會來辦理投票的話他的時間是非常確定的也就是公投日就是根據公投法8月23日8月23日這是確定的"},{"start":3668.727,"end":3697.167,"text":"那立法院送過來的話要讓我們有90天之前的一個宣告所以立法院大概在5月24、25這個中間應該要送到中選回來我們才有時間來進行公告這是確定的但是有關於罷免的案件因為他成案的時間不同因為他查對的時間會有落差"},{"start":3698.087,"end":3715.845,"text":"所以而且而且他的这个投票的时间法律有明文规定就是必须要在成立20到60天之内要办理投票所以罢免案的时间比较复杂他到底什么时候具备"},{"start":3716.425,"end":3740.51,"text":"的這個條件是到達可以這個宣告成立我們真的是現在難以預料所以委員垂詢的到底有沒有可能雖然法律沒有規定說可以合併但是有沒有可能合併在一起我實在是沒有辦法做逆料這個問題也只能夠提到我們委員會去根據當時的狀況再來就討論決定"},{"start":3743.491,"end":3758.539,"text":"主委我剛剛沒有因為我沒辦法參加委員會所以我剛剛有請教你就是為了節省人便納稅錢跟節省很多的行政成本您個人支不支持在委員會的時候您支不支持公投應該跟罷免案綁在一起我第一個就是一定要合法"},{"start":3759.315,"end":3787.368,"text":"一定要合法第二個當然要減少社會成本的支出所以你會支持這是非常非常重要的第三還要考慮到我們選務的能量基於這三個考慮我們委員會會做深入的討論好那主委支不支持這不是我支不支持的問題我就說必須要這三個同時考量你反不反對我沒有預設立場"},{"start":3788.8,"end":3816.376,"text":"好那我就請主委要在合法合規而且節省這個人民納稅錢行政支出而且投票的量能之下好好來幫人民節省納稅錢可以嗎我剛剛就提到這三點好謝謝那第二個問題我想要請教主委根據中選會的報告我剛有提到現在進行的罷免案將近有59案那包含大概大部分包含的是立委的這個補選案立委有50案大部分都立委的這個"},{"start":3818.637,"end":3847.538,"text":"這個罷免案嘛那一個立委其實基本上依照規定大概可以代表30萬的選民那如果這整個選舉罷免案的成立大概會有1500萬的這個選民的這個選區的選民在投票那我想要請問主委那現在你們有預計說辦理罷免需要花多少經費那經費的來源是怎麼樣嗎那當然要順便一提我認為中選會很辛苦每年都要辦選務工作是不是可以請主委回答大概會花多少錢那經費的來源大概在哪裡"},{"start":3848.886,"end":3875.681,"text":"我們為了這個經費的問題的確是很傷頭腦筋因為它不確定的因素很多啦尤其是到底有幾個案子你現在進行中的案子如果全部成案的話你有沒有統計過會花多少經費我們只能夠說過去的經驗一個個案一個個案因為規模大概大小固然有差別但是差也不會太多啦每一個議員每一個立委的選區的規模"},{"start":3877.722,"end":3903.369,"text":"它的地域的規模人口的這個多寡都會影響我們舉去年的中二選區來講的話它大概是花了將近兩千萬一千九百萬一個選區花兩千萬那如果以台北第五選區的話它人口是少了一點也就是比較集中所以大概會花十幾億吧大概是一千五百萬左右"},{"start":3904.469,"end":3905.31,"text":"那請問主委這個經費大概你們會從哪裡來支應"},{"start":3925.347,"end":3941.415,"text":"因為中選會的年度預算沒有辦法去預料是不是從行政院的第二預備金來支援一定要申請行政院來動之第二預備金那我要跟主委報告行政院第二預備金其實新聞媒體有在報導他其實過去都在救災所使用的"},{"start":3941.715,"end":3954.294,"text":"所以不然等席是非常不願意看到不管是國民黨、民進黨的立委都被罷免那從這次的全國大罷免中其實中委會主委的立場非常重要你是不是覺得說現行的罷免案的門檻"},{"start":3956.113,"end":3971.373,"text":"25%就可以10%就可以連署25%就可以罷免過關門檻是不是過低所以你認為說這有沒有需要修法大家可以來討論來避免導致這個大罷免變成人民選舉會很疲乏以及這個供奴的耗損主委請回答"},{"start":3972.61,"end":3989.646,"text":"現行法律規定的門檻也是立法院通過的我們就按照立法院通過的法律來執行至於門檻的高低 社會各界的看法我想大家多多交換意見立法院如果認為有修法的必要的話我們也表示尊重"},{"start":3990.126,"end":4005.44,"text":"好 那一段大家就可以繼續討論了那最後我要請教主委就是說在這次罷免連署中選會的立場非常重要可是我們也看到很多程序上有不明確的地方比如說在一開始第一屆在連署的時候那時候我就有請教主委"},{"start":4006.081,"end":4031.726,"text":"一年內不得提罷免可是一年內到底可不可以辦連署活動跟辦連署當時您是說法無明文規定或者是您是跟我講說沒有人檢舉可是我們看到這個情況在地方發生得非常嚴重所以2月3號送件的時候2月1號 2月2號是假日我們看到2月3號的時候送了非常多的件數進來就變成說程序上其實我認為中選會有很多沒有辦法提供"},{"start":4033.007,"end":4042.255,"text":"這個被罷免人一個很明確的一個解釋那我們現在看到其實現在第二階段罷免的是60天的連署期間可是我們發現60天連署很多罷免團體送進了以後還繼續在連署"},{"start":4047.642,"end":4062.797,"text":"所以變成說他現在審查期的40天他可以繼續再連署或者是甚至審查完了以後如果裡面內容如果有一些還要補件的話還有10天可以補件變成還有50天的連署的期間那本席是認為我不是公民團體罷免"},{"start":4064.699,"end":4079.54,"text":"所做的事情我們都能尊重可是這會讓被罷免人他們心裡會覺得說不是就是60天的連署期嗎怎麼會變成說這個連署完交卷了以後考試完交卷了以後還可以繼續再寫考卷所以中選會在這邊你們"},{"start":4081.583,"end":4097.503,"text":"覺得這樣子的做法是你們認同的嗎還是現在是法無名門規定所以我的意思就是說現在的因為大家認為我們的台灣是民主社會我們投票民主選舉的法律的概念是很嚴格的可是罷免因為以前沒有那麼多的案子所以變成中選會如果沒有辦法"},{"start":4098.524,"end":4116.519,"text":"提供了很明確的一個程序的話其實被罷免方不管是國民黨跟民進黨的立委或議員會造成好像罷免變成霸凌造成地方的分裂跟等等衝突所以請主委來解釋一下現在變成罷免到是60天還是連這個補屆跟審查時間都算罷免連署期間"},{"start":4117.552,"end":4133.861,"text":"第一點就是有關於這個提議的部分提議就是送件應該在任期滿一年以後了但是其實當然我們也知道有很多提議的這個倡議在一年以前就已經是結束了連署單在一年前簽的啊"},{"start":4134.241,"end":4154.849,"text":"這個是法無明文規定所以就程序就不明確嘛我認為這是屬於人民的自由選委會也沒有辦法去進入所以我跟你們講主委選舉投票是自由民主就是很明確的選舉罷免我認為應該也有很明確的選舉這樣才公平才對等嘛所以為什麼我會跟你報告這件事情就是選完舉以後就開始分裂就開始衝突民眾沒辦法修身養息"},{"start":4156.61,"end":4164.431,"text":"就變成說選舉完以後馬上進行罷免就是因為程序不確定好 那請除了繼續回應 謝謝好 那有關於連署的部分"},{"start":4167.054,"end":4190.248,"text":"法也是沒有明文規定法永遠都沒有明文規定主委的態度跟主委你要把這些程序弄得很清楚我們從一個法律規定的這個辦法可以來尋求答案也就是說法律的規定是說你這個連署人名冊送進來之後經過我查對你少了"},{"start":4190.908,"end":4208.283,"text":"你少了少了幾份所以法律規定你有10天的時間可以來補那審查期間可不可以連署10天的期間裡面你又要他補你又不准他去連署那這個是會有矛盾的那40天的審查期可不可以連署"},{"start":4209.363,"end":4238.042,"text":"40天的審查期這個法也沒有禁止的規定對啊 所以我要跟主委講就是因為法沒有規定的話讓地方造成分裂跟衝突嘛就大家每天只要選完舉就一直在地方連署嘛是 這個連署雖然選報法雖然是沒有明文規定但是相關的法律尤其是包括各自的保護的法律呢還是必須要遵守那到底40天的審查期可不可以連署主委可不可以明確的回應40天的審查期裡面我們管不到啊"},{"start":4238.722,"end":4257.847,"text":"還是法無名文規定對 我們管不著所以主委我要跟你報告的是說看大家投票什麼時候60天才能做一些選舉活動這些都規定得非常的明確就是因為罷免過去沒有那麼多的審查案件導致不管是這個人民被罷免方我們被罷免的這個民眾"},{"start":4258.427,"end":4284.252,"text":"他們都無所適從因為被罷免方式不能這個募款等等這些那我們現在都尊重現在的規定可是我認為主委你應該要在這個在這次的大罷免以後我們應該學習到一個教訓怎麼樣讓台灣的民主社會大家是可以平衡的比如說選舉完以後就開始連署就開始罷免也沒有任何明文規定那送件了以後繼續可以連署造成地方的整個衝突人民的衝突我認為是非常的"},{"start":4285.322,"end":4303.552,"text":"不正確的所以在這邊我希望說政府我們的賴總統執政應該好好拚民生不要拚鬥爭所以我希望說如果人民覺得說這次的罷免而且像主委剛剛的回應來講很多的程序是不明確的大罷免變成是大"},{"start":4304.332,"end":4321.014,"text":"大惡霸變成什麼大霸凌所以我認為這樣是非常不好的所謂的沒有明文規定跟不明確其實並不一定畫上等號沒有明文規定的話就是百姓你去做我不處罰你"},{"start":4323.101,"end":4347.152,"text":"那也是很清楚的不能說他不明確所以我的意思就是說這樣子的制度造成地方的分裂到人民一直會覺得他好像天天在選舉天天在看到一些政治活動沒辦法修身養息所以我希望主委不管是主委還是賴清德政府應該要體察剛剛我提到六成以上六成的民眾他是反對這樣子惡霸的所以希望說主委不管是門檻的部分大家都還有討論的空間"},{"start":4348.373,"end":4362.801,"text":"我們現在看到這麼多的罷免案其實造成社會的分裂而且現在整個台灣的政治環境是不能嘴巴說要對外一次團結我們尊重立法院或者是社會各方面的聲音我們尊重主委那拜託說希望未來這個整個"},{"start":4364.122,"end":4379.886,"text":"也希望是台灣的最後一次大罷免那我這邊也要呼籲如果覺得這個活動不合理的人應該出來投反對票更重要的是大家要守法大家一定要守法珍惜我們民主的成果大家要按照法律規定的進行選完以後就不應該翻桌嘛好 謝謝好 謝謝張志倫委員下一位我們請麥玉珍委員質詢"},{"start":4399.039,"end":4401.803,"text":"主席好有請主委主委有請"},{"start":4409.485,"end":4435.676,"text":"主委好 台灣討論不在籍投票的制度已經超過20年了身為民主自豪的國家我們卻遲遲為依法在法治的層面建立完善的制度這無疑是民主發展的一大缺口不在籍投票的制度是保障人民投票權"},{"start":4437.417,"end":4462.429,"text":"擴大政治的參與還有深化民主重要的工具國際上包含美國、日本、韓國等許多國家的民主國家早已經實施多年台灣完全可以參考還有實踐而我們行政院目前也提出全國性公投公民投票不在籍投票的法案、草案投票法的草案"},{"start":4466.191,"end":4469.013,"text":"適用範圍限於說公民投票甚至排除與總統副總統還有立法委員選舉同日執行的公投請問我們主委你有這樣的理由還有設計的邏輯是什麼為何不能一併同日選舉呢"},{"start":4491.215,"end":4518.896,"text":"跟委員報告因為貴黨團已經提出這樣一個公投案立法院即將進行也許他如果說通過院會的話他會交到中選會來辦理公民投票那中選會既然是公民投票的主辦機關在這個時間點上就這個特定的案件我實在是不宜來表示我個人的意見"},{"start":4519.957,"end":4521.898,"text":"這點請委員能夠諒解這個是針對市啊為什麼有沒有認同有沒有認同這樣子的一個公投會牽涉到我們中選會審查各方的意見所以我在這邊如果說我的意見是怎麼樣那對其他的委員是不尊重的"},{"start":4543.821,"end":4550.464,"text":"這個是你的工作啦 不是尊重的問題問你的工作 你覺得有沒有認同委員的指教因為呢 對 在今年四月份我們卓院長也在答詢中也表示啦可對市公投開始試行因為對人的選舉比較複雜比較高但是這番話其實就反映什麼行政院長並不否定"},{"start":4571.013,"end":4574.14,"text":"不在籍投票的可能性既然是對市公投可以規劃請問全國性選舉就是直接"},{"start":4581.377,"end":4603.116,"text":"就就選舉就是完全做不到嗎我們認為不在即投票是找這不是技術的問題而不是也不是制度不行而是政府與中選會根本沒有積極要做這件事情啊所以我們台灣民眾黨才提出轉移投票的制度"},{"start":4603.917,"end":4617.894,"text":"也多次向我們中選會溝通也建議當時中選會說改口說什麼問題在於民眾信任度不足現在你又說不是你不方便講所以說中選會是我曾經對這一項的制度你做過"},{"start":4624.341,"end":4626.064,"text":"民眾的信任度調查嗎還是你自己說的所以是否具體的資料可以提供嗎還是說根本就是我們行政帶多的藉口而已呢"},{"start":4643.311,"end":4658.207,"text":"因為跟我們一貫的立場是一致的就是說對市的不在籍投票也就是公民投票的不在籍投票尤其是從移轉投票開始這個一向是中選會跟這個"},{"start":4660.709,"end":4674.22,"text":"內政部一項的這個意見我們甚至於具體的行動就是全國性公民投票不在籍投票法的草案已經二度送到立法院來所以你是支持我們啊前委員支持我們的不在籍投票的法案委員支持我們的這個因為他已經在立法院了嘛就是"},{"start":4683.707,"end":4690.151,"text":"在立法院你也是要表態支持還是不支持或者你調查有沒有調查的具體的資料委員所說的不在籍投票的公民投票我現在不能講支持不支持因為我要審議啊"},{"start":4698.66,"end":4703.104,"text":"對啊你審議你支持就會就是這個就是大家就是我們現在根據我們調查嘛大家歡喜嘛因為在20歲到29歲的我們全國有七成支持移轉投票還有年輕人支持最高了所以呢我們在地工作啊或者是離鄉的打拚的年輕人"},{"start":4725.624,"end":4740.312,"text":"他們強烈的就是說投票的需求但是因為阿姨這些工作讀書啊這些所以呢我們也很清楚認知說制度是便利性結果我們政府就是"},{"start":4741.312,"end":4757.784,"text":"就是一直在理由一堆就是不行動所以最照顧年輕人的賴總統的政見就形成強烈的落差所以我們再來再問你的就是關於你的資料裡面有些報告"},{"start":4758.544,"end":4787.083,"text":"目前在處理收行人請求設置投票所的行政輸送請問目前對於在監所的設計符合投票的資格收行人各監所的做法又為何中選會是否掌握這個人數還有在2023年10月台北高等行政法院的裁定"},{"start":4790.108,"end":4813.838,"text":"選務機構應該在台北監獄所設置投票所還有請問我們中小會你採取哪一些的措施所以未來在不採取投票的制度的推行的時候在受益人的時候他們投票的保障你有考慮嗎是說你有研議關於這個法律的行政配套嗎有嗎"},{"start":4819.622,"end":4837.032,"text":"關於授權人的投票權的保障這個在理論上我們也是支持的但是在選舉的實務以及監所的戒護實際的狀況底下的確有一些困難"},{"start":4838.072,"end":4841.154,"text":"就是因為有困難所以從去年從去年開始的個案的訴訟到目前為止司法機關都支持我們的立場"},{"start":4857.954,"end":4861.276,"text":"我們再重申我們再次移轉投票是最直接的還有說我們有最具名義的基本就是不在一起投票的方式同是選舉當天"},{"start":4874.224,"end":4877.626,"text":"人在台灣啦 在台灣 所以本人親自投票就能讓就是外地的人 就學的人民眾就是不用單車勞頓所以這偏鄉的人也可以在這樣子的一個具有意義所以我們的民眾黨主張 一貫的主張方向就呼應我們中選會 不要再用行政的困難的藉口"},{"start":4898.536,"end":4905.321,"text":"也不要做完成就是我們不再舉公投的制度所以我們是應該就提出說我們盡快提出就是涵蓋總統副總統立委啊這個選舉完整的版本這個才是"},{"start":4915.829,"end":4935.964,"text":"對選民還有對我們民主的基本的交代這個才是我們想要的我也對不起如果是這麼強烈的主張的話直接提案可能會比公民投票要快一點我們已經都提了問你有沒有同意有沒有說但是你們都沒有立法權是在立法院裡面"},{"start":4940.515,"end":4955.264,"text":"立法權在立法院裡面我們提案也是大家同意三方溝通如果不用溝通的話就直接提了嘛叫你們來報告幹嘛呢如果要講效率的話其實是直接提案立法會比公民投票要快"},{"start":4956.084,"end":4958.785,"text":"我們要的是我們民意剛才跟你講的強調我們是要我們立法院我們是我們要行政公立你們有沒有依法行政對不對我們是民意的聲音要反應是我們要跟政府共同也是要民意共同不是說我們要提法案"},{"start":4980.033,"end":4988.099,"text":"要提法案也是民意需要不是我們自己說的算也不是你說的算你不是說你不是你說的算但是你有權利你有要做的義務要回答不是一直在說別人還是怎麼樣這是你的義務啊再來再問了這個算你就行政中立跟你問你都是說不出一個"},{"start":5004.434,"end":5007.337,"text":"一個真正的去做但是現在是我們民間的我們人民作為一個人民做主的志工團他們這個組織目前有向中選會提出法律覆轍的公投有四個案其中一個公投案是在今年2月7號就提出了"},{"start":5029.273,"end":5040.349,"text":"依據公投法第十條第三項主管機關需要在六十日內審核完畢但是認定是否有這樣子的規定還有"},{"start":5042.799,"end":5046.282,"text":"通知補正但是這個組織認為他在中選會提出由中選會提出的4月23日聽證距離2月7號的提案日已經超過76日請問主委這樣子是否"},{"start":5063.658,"end":5082.034,"text":"就違背公投案第十條第三項的六十天內的規定中選會是否認為公開聽證不屬於六十天審核的程序的一部分如果是 你的意志如何是你專科的嗎 這樣回答可以嘛 對不對"},{"start":5083.704,"end":5104.019,"text":"我請我們同仁回答別的消息阿不是你專科阿你當主委不是你專科阿都問別人阿委員有關這個提案60天審核如果有聽證的話是不包括在內的那我們這幾個案子都是在60天內提委員會來這個審核那是因為委員會議有決議說要繼續辦理聽證"},{"start":5106.881,"end":5110.243,"text":"所以說六十天內都是這個規定嘛但是現在是召開聽證會就是屬於這個程序嗎你預計如何呢如果是這樣子的話通知完了法案先是就是影響人民公投案的權利嘛"},{"start":5125.812,"end":5153.561,"text":"但是是否影響這樣子的進行還有時程但是公投審查中中選會對某一些提案的理由書行政的嚴格就是議員的審查但是要補正或者返回這樣子的話我們主委這邊我們的中選會這邊審查提案時不同人提案提出的公投所以說是政治立場嗎有涉及政治立場還是比方說我們公投立場的執政黨"},{"start":5155.302,"end":5176.095,"text":"立場相同的話你就可以採取意氣審查的態度如何消除不同提案人審查的標準有這樣子的不信任感因為你是規定60天但是你在70天76天內你才有這樣子的召開聽證所以說的規定如何"},{"start":5179.107,"end":5184.169,"text":"那你預計什麼 你要預計什麼 你這麼做嘛你叫別人預計60天內 你自己沒有預計60天內那叫公民團體他們如何法律規定的審核60天不包含經證程序的進行"},{"start":5198.388,"end":5210.833,"text":"所以說就不包含所以呢如果這樣子的話他們在補正的時間60天內就是不包含了所以他們就是在60天外他們就是管理公證後再來補正是嗎就是提案跟"},{"start":5214.254,"end":5232.083,"text":"補正以後的審核啊都是法律規定都是60天聽證程序的進行是不包含在這60天內不包含但是你的補正的時候你補正不再包含這樣子的話你就超過時間來去辦公對不對你開這個聽證會你超過時間了你補正的是在60天內那你自己開的又在超過這個60天內你叫人家要補嗎"},{"start":5242.555,"end":5247.956,"text":"對吧這樣子就是因為這樣子他們才會再再來跟申訴嗎如果不是這樣子的話他們不會去申訴不會去說依據法律但是你們的聽證會就是在法律的60天內所以他們才會這個要說明讓這些民團他們才覺得說我們是怎麼去規定的你依據哪裡的這樣子大家"},{"start":5269.04,"end":5287.289,"text":"才會所以我希望這個部分你提出一個真正的說明所以我們希望就是我們的選舉的公投制度要有公信力來自中選會是否依法行政保障人民直接民權的行使如果主管機構是連就是"},{"start":5291.291,"end":5298.873,"text":"機構的連法都不能遵守 人民如何信任我們是中立的所以專業的選舉機構 台灣的民主如何進步所以目前我們中選會應該會說不是只有針對罷免 除了罷免我們中選會還有其他的業務不管剛剛我提出的移轉投票還是收行人的投票的權利又是公投案的審查日期多希望我們主委有"},{"start":5321.017,"end":5325.96,"text":"書面的你現在因為時間的關係主席不好意思但是我們希望我們主委這邊要有改善還有說盡快就是符合很多工作我們沒有違反法律規定的時程所以我希望你就是要讓這些民團他們申請的結德說你超過這個時間但是他的補間時間在60天我拜託委員能夠轉拔"},{"start":5347.631,"end":5354.776,"text":"不是在六十天內我拜託委員能夠轉達這個民團好好珍惜這個聽證的機會因為那是對他們有幫助當然啊當然是能珍惜但是我們希望說你在規定內這樣他們補件如果他們你直接放寬這樣子他們就不是在六十天內補證了好 那個請中選會會後補充好不好好 謝謝麥議員現在我們請張宏督召回諮詢"},{"start":5382.614,"end":5384.162,"text":"我請主委李主委有請"},{"start":5393.483,"end":5413.849,"text":"主委那個選委會當然是一個中立的機關選委會也是辦選政的重要的機關對不對是但選委會雖然有主委但主委可以決定所有的事情嗎"},{"start":5414.822,"end":5442.439,"text":"我們是一個委員制的機關對嘛你們是要開委員會去做所有的事情的決議吧對不對那這些委員其實是社會賢達然後各黨各派什麼的其實都有人在裡面吧學有專精而且有社會公信力對嘛所以很多的事情不是主委說的算吧"},{"start":5443.086,"end":5470.549,"text":"那當然所以是要尊重整個委員會的一個制度所以不是什麼事情主委就可以講因為這個裡面在開會這個每個人的意見社會賢達學友專精的人每個人都可以提出意見然後做出最後的決定所以有時候要主委說什麼跟你跟內政部長跟什麼是不一樣的是不是"},{"start":5472.247,"end":5487.303,"text":"立場是不一樣吧是沒錯啦好所以啊很多的事情啊並不是在這邊說主委說怎樣因為最主要還是委員會的制度不過齁我先有幾個問題我今天看了你們這個業務報告"},{"start":5490.751,"end":5498.654,"text":"你們還有參與國際選舉組織活動我知道我們台灣的選委會其實在國際選舉組織裡面我們算是創始會員之一吧是我們兩個組織都是創始會員預算被刪成這樣了你們還能去嗎你還有錢去嗎"},{"start":5513.12,"end":5525.423,"text":"比較拮据一點但是我們是排除萬難因為因為我們的會籍還是會被挑戰所以我們是用積極參與的這個態度來確保跟其他個會員國之間的關係來確保維護我們的會員的權利"},{"start":5536.005,"end":5548.556,"text":"對啊對啊我知道啊我們是創始會員國之一啊你如果長一天到晚都不去到時候被處級怎麼辦所以我才會問說那你們的預算被刪成這樣那你們現在可以去嗎"},{"start":5549.492,"end":5577.551,"text":"比較拮据一點,但是今年我們還是排除萬難,還是兩批兩批都有參加還好今年在菲律賓啦,比較勝那在澳洲就不知道了比較困難在歐洲就無法參加了嘛是,今年兩個會都在菲律賓對,我知道那還有你們有一個辦理選務幹部人員講習是我想先請問一下"},{"start":5580.131,"end":5588.969,"text":"所有的各縣市的民政局長或民政處長是不是都是選委會的總幹事啊"},{"start":5591.282,"end":5616.912,"text":"總幹事照規定就是民政局處的首長或者是副首長副主管幾乎這個法律規定民政局長大部分都是兼選委會總幹事真正辦理選舉的是民政局長這個總幹事要去辦理選舉對不對主任委員縣市首長掛主任委員或是他要讓誰掛其實"},{"start":5619.073,"end":5641.764,"text":"他也沒有直接的參與他當然要直接參與也是可以但地方也是委員制嘛對不對不過我看你們你們寫這樣但我看報紙有不只民縣市啦有的縣市他的局長又兼總幹事又什麼的那結果"},{"start":5644.434,"end":5652.922,"text":"他有一些行政不...我們先不講法律問題啦有一些行政不中立的情況出現诶主委你有沒有注意到"},{"start":5654.299,"end":5675.551,"text":"我們基本上都予以尊重跟信任因為選務的辦理需要地方政府大力的協助才能夠成功所以我們對於兼任主任委員的山長對於兼任總幹事的民政首長我們都是予以充分的尊重"},{"start":5676.371,"end":5700.041,"text":"那當然啦我們也知道我們也知道因為他畢竟專業並不是在選務方面所以有關於選務法令有關於選舉實務的運作也許他們並不是非常的熟悉所以所以我們專職在地方專職的副總幹事他就必須要負起這個責任隨時提供正確的資訊"},{"start":5701.362,"end":5708.664,"text":"给主任委员给总干事让他们能够在合法的情况之下来带动我们的选务"},{"start":5709.924,"end":5735.502,"text":"那我我就講比較白一點那如果民政局長他用復一證復證系統然後去查資料這樣有沒有違反然後結果又是選委會去審查這些資料這樣子對行政上來講你認為選委會的中立會不會被質疑"},{"start":5736.827,"end":5762.539,"text":"地方選委會它依法是必須受中央選舉委員會的指揮跟監督所以雖然大部分的選務是在地方來辦理但是中選會不是在那邊演其實我們都盯著都聯絡各地的選委會我們都有專屬的窗口每天了解當地選務進行的狀況"},{"start":5765.211,"end":5772.785,"text":"如果有發現這個可能有一些違反法令的狀況疑慮的話我們都會加強溝通"},{"start":5776.656,"end":5796.428,"text":"哇 這個不是發現啊媒體都登了啊對不對 媒體都登了那麼大啦也不是發現啊 對不對為什麼那一部分 那一部分現在媒體登的看到的那一部分現在都還沒有還沒有涉入到我們的選務機關我們的選舉的業務裡面都還沒有欸 主委 這樣子講我就有點不認同"},{"start":5805.012,"end":5830.587,"text":"從一開始就是造假然後呢造假的人本身又是民政處長然後他又兼選委會總幹事就是違法的部分對啊那違法的部分這個都已經很明確了他到時候他又是在審查的一個機關如果是指特定的縣市的話他已經不是我們的總幹事了"},{"start":5831.611,"end":5843.251,"text":"我知道現在已經不是了啦不是現在在前一個案子就已經不是對他現在已經不是但我為什麼要特別提出這一個其他個縣市你保證都沒有嗎"},{"start":5844.983,"end":5862.057,"text":"我信任啦 我也相信所有的公務人員不管他兼任 他專職都應該能夠把持行政中立這個不變的原則我覺得啦 主委 我一開始就跟您說中選會是選政機關 不是選務機關"},{"start":5868.422,"end":5894.771,"text":"但選務機關幾乎都在各縣市直接執行但你也是可以直接監督的你不能讓一些事情一直發生這樣子會造成什麼後果你以後辦選舉人家會質疑所有的公信力一件一件這樣下來如果中選會也都沒有任何的作為處理你會造人民會對未來你的選舉"},{"start":5896.429,"end":5917.855,"text":"會不會有充分信任這一點一定要跟委員報告現在所有牽涉到違法的部分事實根據都是我們選務機關負責盡職所查出來的所抓出來的所以我們有盡到責任我不是說你沒有盡到責任主席再給我說我不是說你沒有盡到責任"},{"start":5922.236,"end":5932.895,"text":"所以我們還是會把關啦你除了把關之外我剛特別想到的你們辦理選務什麼講座這些你除了三聲五令之外其實你對他也沒有直接的"},{"start":5934.109,"end":5961.093,"text":"一個指揮的權限或什麼但該有的懲處該有的什麼其實也應該要做啊中選會不會無為啦我們有我們的作為我知道所以主委我只是提醒你這樣你不要到時候我們的選舉或什麼會變成民眾的不信任啦我覺得是會這樣因為選舉最怕的就是舞弊從以前的坐票"},{"start":5962.574,"end":5988.815,"text":"灌票這選舉最擔心的就是舞弊那這次的很多的事情如果你要給他從法律上來看造假什麼的那就是舞弊了所以我覺得很多的事情要讓大家知道說對或不對我只是提醒你不要到後來大家對選委會各地的選舉產生不信任這我是"},{"start":5989.861,"end":6005.51,"text":"比較擔心的是未來台灣幾十年的這個選舉的運作我擔心的點是這裡啦謝謝委員也是我們這個選務的前輩你的提點謝謝好謝謝張宏祿召委下一位我們請王美惠委員質詢主席我們現在要主委李主委有請"},{"start":6024.437,"end":6033.525,"text":"委員你好主委 各位知道辛苦主委在這裡本身要跟你談到的就是說因為在最近我們的選拔發生的時候應該是前一陣子大家要拿要簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽"},{"start":6049.54,"end":6050.581,"text":"另外一段說,我們要以霸之霸,要來簽,做一路補課的,來簽的當中,我相信我們永超的,還有很多過往的人"},{"start":6067.35,"end":6069.251,"text":"在過往的人當中,你看我們基隆的面前處長看完後,他剛才說,那已經不是你們的人了但是不是你們的人,也是正經是你們地方選舉委員會的人了"},{"start":6090.064,"end":6102.273,"text":"在這個規定當中 我覺得非常不該 也非常對北省 對政府 最好一個信任就沒有像今天我們的董事"},{"start":6107.947,"end":6111.168,"text":"翁小玲立委,大立委喔,說如果選辦法有違法的、有不法的,應該是要所有的出力量"},{"start":6126.727,"end":6132.93,"text":"他的部分要來處理,這樣是不對的主委,如果像這樣說,如果科技做表的人繼續做表跟檢考員看到也不能夠糾正,當分放出來的時候,跟他說他做表"},{"start":6149.312,"end":6150.514,"text":"又來偷竊錢,再偷竊錢之後放柴辣去竊,竊到貴賃給你,再用監視器說這個柴辣在我們家做柴辣"},{"start":6163.78,"end":6173.145,"text":"我們來想想,如果萬一有一天台灣可以逃不掉我們知道它已經要逃不掉台灣了我們還不可以說要等待台灣逃不掉才可以說如果它的論述、它的公法是這樣的跟這中華民國這樣又有法律我們的公務人員"},{"start":6195.297,"end":6206.859,"text":"在兩百四十一條的 依然沒有不對我們本來就要來計劃 要來處理啦北省如果有這不對的規範我們也需要來講咧什麼羨慕我們第一階段 第一階段處理了剛剛來來糾正主委"},{"start":6223.618,"end":6228.342,"text":"本席說到這氣氛,沒有一個大大的立委,對於看到他多厲害多厲害說這個委,實在是委上的不應該啦!大派的孩子大小,主委,在本席剛才所說的,你們委內"},{"start":6248.845,"end":6267.339,"text":"謝謝委員的指教中山會的策略是這樣我們根據刑事訴訟法241條的規定只要我們在執行職務的時候發現有犯罪的嫌疑的話那我們在職務上就有告發的義務那這個告發的義務我的意思就是說你當時發現到你就當時去告發"},{"start":6282.081,"end":6300.637,"text":"即時的告發其實這個也是確保犯罪的追溯能夠有效的進行很重要的點那我們在告發之後司法機關他們辦案的節奏有他們一定的規定這個我們予以尊重"},{"start":6302.082,"end":6310.964,"text":"因為主委本省會跟你談到這個就是說因為選辦法是你們單位所去管理的白色的第一階段第二階段都是你們管理的第三階段竟然是你們管理的所以在這個規定當中我覺得不管的不管帶一棟帶一個單位都是要"},{"start":6332.301,"end":6337.625,"text":"下去做的啦 要舉報的啦因為我覺得 最惡劣的就是說你抄名也好 拿人的名也好你現在在那裡說這個有貴心或不貴心說實在 各自的東西 政府的東西可以這樣處理嗎"},{"start":6357.827,"end":6361.848,"text":"這基隆說實在一定無法無聽啦實在亂來啦所以在這裡我覺得對任何一個百姓看到基隆發生這個事情大家都非常憤怒不關帶一棟的哪有做一個主觀做到去對這個問題啦"},{"start":6388.26,"end":6395.324,"text":"主委,在這裏面,我認為這是非常悲傷,覺得對政府一種心內的抱怨因為我認為,大家都說各自各自,大家說各自的保護保護和政府機關,但我們的各自是這樣吞吐的"},{"start":6413.769,"end":6416.69,"text":"所以本市在這裡也要跟你說,我們的罷免的日期也有五月,也有六月二十的在這個過程當中,我們是不是可以因為我們這要跟委員會開會嘛,當時要投票的"},{"start":6438.919,"end":6440.26,"text":"如果有幾個做一次是不是可以做到投票因為"},{"start":6447.56,"end":6456.203,"text":"主委,我們想要給你的意見就是,如果你們再開會的時候是不是這個人那樣說,還有這麼多人,不然不管是帶一張牌,我們為了要讓這個宣布領完,做一件比較方便、比較省,要不然為了國家的健全,改開的時候的費用我們也要開啦"},{"start":6477.47,"end":6480.954,"text":"尤其今年可能有公道的問題也已經提出了在本縣所了解可能是在八月二三啦在八月二三當中我們是不是可以跟"},{"start":6495.51,"end":6500.134,"text":"這會罷免選舉這會提拔嗎因為這我的意見給你因為你也沒辦法我回答說可以不行啦"},{"start":6507.415,"end":6511.678,"text":"但是拜託主委如果開會前 跟委員會 大家的意見都可以做參考主委我要來請教一下 我們的基隆發生這個事情 到不成為止你們如果請求全台灣的專務領域的地方主委 開會嗎來 主委你回答"},{"start":6539.565,"end":6545.031,"text":"我們例行的會議每個月都有主管會報另外專案會議 現在有專案專案跟例行的都會邀請我們各地的專職的副總幹事參加線上的會議"},{"start":6558.763,"end":6570.711,"text":"每一次每一次的這個會議我們都是針對各地在選務方面可能產生的問題他們在執行的時候有發現什麼樣的疑問的問題大家提出來做參考尤其這一點非常重要差不多每次都會說到要堅持我們的選務中立這一點都會特別重點對啦 我們要中立啦因為如果你們沒有中立就像基隆這樣"},{"start":6588.943,"end":6599.45,"text":"這個國家就海洋洋了啦因為主委我這次的時間夠了我後面還有兩件要這次的問題我會用書面幫你探討,麻煩你開給我好,謝謝好,謝謝王美惠委員的諮詢下一位請黃婕委員諮詢"},{"start":6616.857,"end":6618.681,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請主委李主委有請"},{"start":6633.317,"end":6661.599,"text":"主委先跟您请教一个问题现在这个罢免的领衔人目前我们的法规是规定如果他在领衔的过程当中不想要继续当领衔人了他想跳船了只有两个方式一个是他遇到死亡或者是说由第一阶段提案人的超过一半必须要签同意书才可以撤换对吗是的那目前为止如果领衔人签户籍是不是仍有领衔资格"},{"start":6662.941,"end":6688.818,"text":"戶籍簽出不影響到他的這個資格好也就是說他即便簽了戶籍他還是有領銜人的資格但是他不能投三接的投票對嗎是的好那唯一的方式如果不是在這兩個條件以下也就是說沒有經歷這個死亡或者是一半的人的同意書那如果這個領銜人真的不想要繼續罷免唯一的方式就是不要親自送件到"},{"start":6689.598,"end":6704.479,"text":"選委會打這個二接的罷免送過去對嗎送件只有合法的領銜人我們才受理那意思是說如果領銜人現在不想要送件那有他可以有其他人帶送嗎"},{"start":6706.06,"end":6721.611,"text":"授權是可以的所以如果他要授權他還是必須要有一個授權書或者是如何證明領銜人授權給其他人幫他帶送這個二階的連署書到選委會那這個都必須要能夠證明"},{"start":6722.972,"end":6743.174,"text":"如何包括包括二分之一的同意這同意是不是原來的這個沒有我的意思是說現在沒有換領銜人喔但是領銜人就是有其他的人他授權其他人幫他親送件因為本來的規定是說領銜人一定要親自送件嘛"},{"start":6744.113,"end":6765.582,"text":"已經要親自送件把這個 對他可以委任嘛對那如果這個委任就是一定要有一個明確的委任書是這個領銜人親自委任其他人來幫他送這個聯署書對嗎是的是的好那這個因為這個規定最近有一些相關的事件所以在這邊也讓所有的團體知道說接下來的規定應該就是照這樣走"},{"start":6766.974,"end":6774.077,"text":"OK 好那再來第二個跟您請教這個罷免連署書如何保障它的保管這個連署書的安全的問題因為其實上禮拜花蓮的這個微光團隊送件的時候發現說在選委會裡面不僅沒有人員駐守然後也沒有任何的監視器也就是放在選委會裡面的這些連署書如何有安全的保障不得而知這個強度是非常非常弱的"},{"start":6796.721,"end":6802.403,"text":"那甚至是他們反映了之後當地的警方才說那我們會加強尋守來確保這些連署書的安全因為這些連署書都是公民風吹日曬雨淋在街頭上一份一份簽出來的很怕有中間有任何的遺漏或者是遭到外力的破壞"},{"start":6816.607,"end":6828.934,"text":"可是現在送到選委會了大家對這個選委會並不信任嘛畢竟這個民政處長也被羈押了甚至中間有非常多行政不中立的情況那我們要如何確保放在選委會裡面的這些聯署書是安全的呢根據這個總統跟副總統還有公職人選舉的印製分發保管的作業要點"},{"start":6837.498,"end":6863.386,"text":"其實裡面有相關的規定我認為是可以參考的裡面提到說保管的處所的出入管制環境維護警衛的助手或者是遺失毀損的通報機制都有明確的規定可是目前看起來這個罷免的相關的規定是可以適用這個的嗎如果可以的話那為什麼我們看到的是放在選委會裡面花蓮選委會裡面的這些連署書如此的沒有保障呢"},{"start":6865.025,"end":6885.661,"text":"我們知道罷免的連署人的名冊他關係重大所以他的安全維護我們是要求要比照選票的成績來做安全維護也因此我們要求各地選委會至少要做到第一個"},{"start":6887.082,"end":6893.928,"text":"場地的安全是場地的安全包括消防安全包括這個電什麼的水你不要水噴出來對不可以變成說有外力去污漬或者是有人噴水或是不小心有人放火燒了嗎"},{"start":6902.334,"end":6914.041,"text":"這是一個第二個是人員的維護人員的維護除了我們選委會的地方的人員之外必要的時候人力不夠的話必要的時候還要這個這個僱用保全來做維護的工作"},{"start":6920.545,"end":6938.196,"text":"第三个非常重要的就是要跟当地的警务机关保持联系我们也行文给警政署以及各地的警察局请求他们支援警力能够加强保管处所的巡逻安全维护的工作"},{"start":6939.316,"end":6966.229,"text":"好 謝謝我們主委在這邊的說明我認為這樣的措施非常重要也感謝你們有注意到這件事情因為我們也很擔心以上說的這些情況萬一有一些意外發生會不會都是有人刻意為之我們當然要極力避免這樣的情況那當然我也不希望說到時候出現一些可能漏了幾百份 幾千份或者是有人刻意去"},{"start":6968.11,"end":6986.273,"text":"破壞或者是造成他的遺失那也擔心說會不會有人進出這個場所把他影印或是抄錄或者是刻意的洩漏這個都是我們非常擔心的事情所以在這邊也是再次的拜託中選會一定要確保連署書保管的安全"},{"start":6986.833,"end":7002.253,"text":"那最後一點時間我要接著前面幾位委員的詢問就是到底要如何做到選委會的利益迴避這件事因為現在的選委會的組成基本上就是地方的市政府怎麼說呢因為其實通常這個地方選委會的主委"},{"start":7003.214,"end":7014.517,"text":"就是要嘛就是市府的秘書長要嘛就是市府的可能市長自己兼任那裡面的總幹事也是明確的在組織規程裡面有規定說都是民政局長或處長或是副處長副局長大概就是這樣的組成那裡面的選委會雖然會有一些社會賢達人士但由於他主導的就是要嘛市長秘書長要嘛就是地方的民政處長"},{"start":7028.72,"end":7032.603,"text":"所以周慧你會發現在基隆在花蓮出現如此荒謬的事情雖然現在這兩位處長都已經被羈押了但是他們犯案的事實很明確利用護證系統濫查民眾的個資然後甚至是指派護證人員照著連署書上面的個資登門造訪這些連署的民眾這就是發生在基隆跟花蓮"},{"start":7053.556,"end":7081.356,"text":"很明確的犯案事實那如何確保選委會的公信力這件事情非常重要所以我也要請教我們中選會有沒有一些其他的方式或其他的建議加強地方選委會的公信力以及未來是不是有修正的可能讓選委會的組成是不要與市府如此重疊避免大家覺得你求冤兼裁判他可以直接把黑手伸進選委會裡"},{"start":7083.64,"end":7107.859,"text":"好謝謝委員的指教第一點我要特別強調我們的選務非常的龐雜那也需要大量的人力所以在每次全國性的選舉地方政府給我們的幫助很多我們一向以來選務機關跟地方政府都是一個夥伴的關係所以我們除了感謝之外我們也對於地方政府"},{"start":7108.919,"end":7118.481,"text":"當然彼此的尊重信任地方的護證人員非常重要我們也都是基於信任希望他們可以把海報事情做好但是我必須要講主委剛剛基隆花蓮案例我已經講過了但是前兩天在台中甚至還發生說這個副總幹事台中選委會的副總幹事過去就是他們南區的區長那現在是專職的選委會副總幹事可是他"},{"start":7134.565,"end":7151.411,"text":"跑到選委會裡面現在當副總幹事之後直接現場查對甚至用正本套糧每一張聯署書是不是符合規格然後中間一度的經過大量的刪除是據理力爭之後才把多數的聯署書留下來"},{"start":7154.003,"end":7174.719,"text":"接著我要報告的就是說畢竟兼職的主任委員跟總幹事他們對於選務的法令對於選務的實際的運作並不是那麼熟悉所以當碰到選務的運作的時候我們特別要求專職的副總幹事"},{"start":7176.42,"end":7193.705,"text":"副總幹事是專職的這就是我說的他是專職的副總幹事可是他過去就是台中戶政系統出來的區長這個當然啦當然這個我們也沒有辦法完全去避免這個東西所以要怎麼辦嘛我現在問你怎麼辦嘛很明顯他就行眾不中立啦中選會有這個指揮監督之權"},{"start":7197.086,"end":7214.966,"text":"我們要求我們專職的幹部一定要隨時提供正確的法令的資訊以及實務運作的相關的規定來給主任委員或者總幹事來提醒他們依法來行政"},{"start":7216.047,"end":7242.909,"text":"那再一點再一點如果說如果說這樣的提醒還沒有辦法來導正的話那中選會會介入的中選會不會聽任違法的狀況去進行我們不會這樣子做的至於怎麼做這個方法很多不過我們都是在尊重跟合法的情況之下來運作"},{"start":7244.215,"end":7264.41,"text":"好 謝謝中選會在這邊的承諾我就是希望說中選會要確保每一個縣市政府的選委會都可以做到依法行政然後不會有任何刁難 查水表行政部中立甚至濫用各自的行為發生我也利用這個機會跟各位報告一下剛剛提到台中的我們的陳副總幹事"},{"start":7266.171,"end":7287.156,"text":"據我們事後的了解雖然跟霸團之間大家有一些意見的出入但是溝通的結果之後都圓滿解決我們也沒有發現他過去因為他過去任何的職位經歷而有影響到選務中立他這樣一張一張用正本去套糧還沒有影響嗎"},{"start":7288.996,"end":7311.645,"text":"這個所謂的套糧這樣子的講法我不知道一指何為何他就是拿正本在這樣子格式有沒有對有沒有差這比用尺量還誇張好嗎查對的時候總是要有一個正本有一個我們的那個範本在那個地方要比對一下這個是正常的程序正常的程序大家不要把它特別的放大好啦那我還是希望中選會我們會注意你們的職責好謝謝"},{"start":7318.991,"end":7321.874,"text":"好 謝謝黃婕委員的資訊 下一位我們請徐益臻委員資訊謝謝主席 我們請李靜蓉主委 李主委有請"},{"start":7340.493,"end":7361.104,"text":"李主委好我想請教一下李主委就是我們各縣市的選委會的同仁的薪水是由誰來支付的是由中央支付就由中央嘛中選會嘛所以其實我們各縣市選委會的同仁都是由中央中選會來支付相關的薪水嗎所以就是我們所謂的一條邊這樣是吧"},{"start":7363.385,"end":7385.02,"text":"我必須要澄清一下地方的選委會也是由中央選委會來支付薪水而且我們也知道就是中央地方一條邊來執行選務工作那在這邊我要請教一下我們的李主委我們其實這段時間看到了我們今年大概創下全世界的首例也是二例"},{"start":7387.401,"end":7402.615,"text":"把我們的執政黨民進黨發起罷免立法院的35個區域立委那現在呢各地混亂的狀況也都在直指這個中選會的不公啊那所以這些日子以來我想大家都有這樣的感受所以我們先來檢討就是罷免"},{"start":7404.597,"end":7425.703,"text":"提議連署不公的狀況因為其實在我們的選罷法第75條有規定就是就職未滿一年則不得罷免但是呢我們可以看到很多的罷團尤其是民進黨的總召柯建民說在113年1月15號也就是我們1月13號選完之後他就開始在準備大罷免了"},{"start":7426.323,"end":7438.466,"text":"那這樣其實就在鑽我們75條的漏洞喔那當然這個時候我們也有提案希望能夠來去這個填補這個漏洞希望就是改為我們75條應該改為應該就職未滿一年者不得為提議連署這樣才能規範這樣的問題可是這個問題目前都還沒有這樣子的中選會也不認同那請問中選會對於這個具體的防制作為目前有嗎"},{"start":7453.605,"end":7462.15,"text":"這是根據法律的規定中選會依法來執行如果因此說中選會不公那請問一下您認同柯總召可以在去年的1月13就說他們要發起大罷免嗎而且在"},{"start":7470.515,"end":7496.509,"text":"這個滿一年之後2月1號滿一年2月3號他們就送出了這個中選會就是應該要閉起眼睛不要去看他們也不要去聽他們中選會要公正公平公開所以請不要閉起眼睛我們現在的感受就是中選會就是閉起眼睛半藍不半綠在各方爭議各方攻防的情況之下我們唯有像正義女神一樣要拍眼睛"},{"start":7497.129,"end":7510.865,"text":"當然要眼睛張開啊可是我們現在看到的中選會就是閉起眼睛就像您剛剛講的中選會就是辦完不辦綠喔所以75條法律的規定怎麼會是中選會不公正不中立呢我現在是說"},{"start":7511.966,"end":7531.951,"text":"因為民進黨在專長的法律漏洞那中選會對此有沒有什麼樣具體的作為那剛剛您講嘛你們會閉上眼睛法律沒有規定中選會就不能夠違法去執行那我們的修法您讚不讚同如果我來修正這一條其實我已經也提案要修正這個部分修法是立法委員是大院的職責謝謝主委的認同那接下來呢就是中選會在2月1號公告時其實這個部分就是"},{"start":7542.47,"end":7548.217,"text":"我知道之前有一個公文是問中選會可不可以在這個連署書上可不可以用打字蓋章替代親筆連署那中選會回答是可以嗎只要本人親自簽名就可以喔那其實呢這樣的一個方式當然就會讓人家有一些存疑啦你前面是可以這個就是要用打字"},{"start":7562.835,"end":7572.271,"text":"蓋章打字抄寫都可以只要本人簽名或蓋章就可以嘛也就是說這一個聯署書如果是用打字再用蓋章那請問這樣是合格的聯署書嗎"},{"start":7576.468,"end":7593.522,"text":"那個個欄就是用打字的然後本人親自簽名或蓋章對那只要是用打字的然後最後是親自蓋章這個是合格的聯署書對不對對啊那這樣的話你要怎麼去查它是不是偽造你要怎麼去查它是不是有問題簽名"},{"start":7594.343,"end":7596.905,"text":"主要是簽名跟蓋章蓋章到刻印章去蓋的大概肉眼也可以做辨識主委的意思這樣就是不合格的"},{"start":7615.178,"end":7620.581,"text":"倒蓋當然是不合格倒蓋印章當然不合格倒蓋印章不合格我們現場的查隊人員他們會做辨識如果我們發覺是打字的或是抄寫的最後用蓋章的我們其實就可以去查隊"},{"start":7634.987,"end":7648.772,"text":"去了解他到底是不是這個錯假連署或偽造的我們的查罪人員會做辨識認定那另外我也在想請問一下主委就是告發疑似偽造的標準是什麼是依據查核錯誤的鑒數還是憑中選會的感覺憑選務人員的感覺"},{"start":7653.394,"end":7680.552,"text":"中選會跟這個選務人員不會憑感覺辦事那就是有一定的標準當然有一定的標準那希望中選會要依照這樣的標準去做查對有關於這個死亡連署的部分是各地的戶政機關他們查對的結果有關於是否這個委簽或者是倒蓋這是我們當地的選務機關的人員他們的查對的項目"},{"start":7683.474,"end":7691.519,"text":"那我想請教一下主委就是過去有過市長的罷免案明代的罷免案還有總統副總統選舉的連署案也都有疑似偽造的情況請問中選會有沒有告發有有好請問告發的時間是什麼時候告發的時間大概不一啦不一好請問這剛我講的這三件市長的罷免案還有總統副總統選舉連署案這個都在什麼時候告發"},{"start":7710.759,"end":7727.292,"text":"大概會主委如果您忘記了我可以告訴你你們都是在選舉結束之後才告發應該講說是這個查對的程序結束之後結果我們委員會的審查最後的結果根據這個結果才去告發"},{"start":7728.547,"end":7732.25,"text":"您可能忘記了你們這兩件不管是韓市長的一個罷免案跟我們總統副總統的這個連署你們都是在選舉結束之後才去告發的其實我想要跟主委這個跟我講的沒有差別啦我想要跟主委探討的是其實其實說真的啦你現在在一階就已經對於這個這麼多的這個"},{"start":7753.988,"end":7780.482,"text":"疑似偽造文書 疑似這樣的一個狀況 各自法的部分就提出了告發的一個動作其實我想主委應該很清楚 連署是沒有辦法決定結果的是最後人民踏入我們的這個投票所 一票一票的蓋出來才能決定最後是否罷免成功 這個您認同吧我特別要強調的就是說 我們的告發是依法有據的"},{"start":7781.437,"end":7802.345,"text":"所以我想為什麼你們以前都是在選後才告發就是因為確實要由人民一票一票的投出來的結果才能夠影響選舉的結果所以你們以前會選擇在選後來做告發的動作是這樣可是這次是非常罕見的大規模的在選舉第一階段的這個連署之"},{"start":7802.825,"end":7804.226,"text":"2月3號開始收案從2月初開始就不斷的有檢舉案件民間的檢舉案件到檢調機關區"},{"start":7826.098,"end":7832.524,"text":"那為什麼之前在那個韓市長被罷免案也有人檢舉檢舉檢調機關從2月到3月一共有14度發函來要我們一共資料所以狀況不一樣情況不一樣因為最後人民進這個投票所投票才會影響"},{"start":7851.721,"end":7856.324,"text":"那個跟連署是沒有關係的連署是他有沒有資格那如果你們覺得有偽造或是有這個相關的你們都已經剔除了嘛那當然我想在這邊也在跟主委請教就是說在過去罷免韓市長被告偽造文書被移送法辦之後高雄地檢署是最後不起訴"},{"start":7878.576,"end":7906.124,"text":"那不起訴的聲明它是說於收集連署的過程中並未有護證系統等方式供查和比對身份的字號亦難期待得以發覺有連署者於提議前已死亡之情勢是被告等人尚難以深知已是偽造斯文罪的這個罪責喔也就是說發起人根本難以事前查對連署書的真假能有這樣的能力的就只有選務機構"},{"start":7907.364,"end":7924.437,"text":"所以呢 需要有足以損害於公眾或他人的這個狀況才可以成立那請問一下主委 水務機關都已經把錯誤的或者是這個死亡連署的都已經挑出來的還有足深損害於公眾或他人的機會嗎就是說在連署的過程中"},{"start":7930.219,"end":7958.698,"text":"你们在我们的选务机关已经把错误的提议联署书挑出来这样还有足深损害于公众或他人吗就像我刚刚讲的最后的人民投票才能够影响那样的结果伪造是被我们认定的道科死亡联署是我们认定的我们认定了就表示他有犯罪的嫌疑他有犯罪的嫌疑刑事诉讼241条我们就应该要告发至于告发之后"},{"start":7960.059,"end":7967.184,"text":"構成要件該不該當主委那是司法機關的事情這是我們剛剛探討一個問題跟我們剛剛探討一個問題你這次你是主動告發的嘛我們中學會有主動告發然後再來就是說因為時間關係最後一個問題想要請教一下這個主委就是我要跟您探討一下偽造文書的這個問題就是前台中地方法院法官李敬勇"},{"start":7983.797,"end":8001.767,"text":"曾經要書記官造假筆錄倒填日期依照當時的法官平和的機制如果李金勇法官在1985年11月31號前沒有開庭會因拖延審判而影響考機由假等降為已等獎金也會短少33125元但李法官為了避免被認定延遲審查經將雙方律師2月5號出庭簽下的暫停審判同意書日期篡改為1月31號"},{"start":8012.333,"end":8040.313,"text":"意圖製造在期限內開庭的假象請問主委當年造假筆錄道田日啟的動機是什麼第一個我的答覆第一個這是40年前無罪判決的一個成年老案現在還拿出來說你也想看有什麼真假第二個這個案子沒有查評冊沒有死亡聯署也沒有道科印章"},{"start":8041.075,"end":8045.538,"text":"主委當年的判決書特別講到說本案被告李靖勇等人行為雖然具偽造之形式然而無罪的理由是因為未身實質損害所以獲判無罪並不是沒有這件事情而是因為沒有實質的損害那請問一下李靖勇我們的主委你當時"},{"start":8065.413,"end":8073.141,"text":"他們有到清晨時分到你家去大搜索嗎你們有被帶回徵訊一天一夜嗎你們有檢察官申請生壓嗎所以其實這個部分我只要跟我是要跟主委來探討我沒有要掩飾什麼我只是要跟主委探討我們這樣子的案子應該要偵查的比例原則應該要遵守"},{"start":8090.077,"end":8099.542,"text":"我覺得您非常的幸運因為你們當時有一個可以依法行政的好監察官所以才能夠放到這樣的時候如果到今天的話你可能會被剪掉鬆脫你可能會被施壓所以我覺得您很幸運因為當年遇到了這個可以依法行政的好監察官所以"},{"start":8115.191,"end":8125.203,"text":"李建宏主委您不要惱羞成怒我現在跟你探討的就是是不是依法行政的問題有沒有依照比例原則我只是覺得你身為一個立法委員怎麼會拿這種40年前的舊案毫無理由的舊案來提出質疑"},{"start":8135.134,"end":8147.859,"text":"我們現在明年的選舉已經開始用排黑條款它是說不管你多少年你曾經犯過罪你就一律排黑條款你就必須沒有辦法選舉當時你為什麼不講這40年前的怎麼可以這樣做所以已經有主委你不能自己一套標準對別人一套標準無助於掩飾這個資深系統性犯罪你只要曾經犯罪你就不能檢"},{"start":8162.924,"end":8173.734,"text":"不能夠再繼續參政,所以我覺得那個標準要一致,謝謝主委謝謝,我們感謝習政委員質詢,我們請牛錫廷召委質詢謝謝主席,李靖勇主委有請請主委你好"},{"start":8189.795,"end":8214.293,"text":"主委早安早這一次全國大罷免是無前例基本上也空前混亂那社會上的衝突跟對立目前在持續的加溫之中那當然你作為這個中選會的主委啊籌辦這一次選務一定是特別的辛苦這我們都願意理解所以今天針對相關的一些議題跟你做一些探討第一個是有關於連署跟查對的一些遊戲規則這個我們要做在這個在委員會這邊做一個釐清"},{"start":8220.422,"end":8243.658,"text":"來下一張 謝謝我們這段時間有看到很多奇奇怪怪的連署樣派當然互相指責 有人講說死人連署 幽靈連署那這樣蠻有意思的 來自我們台東啊這個唐太宗也來連署啊這個李世民 李榮基啊還有這個魏子夫這都是一些古人連署啊那麼這樣連署 當然他們團體裡面就把他篩選掉了"},{"start":8244.238,"end":8261.18,"text":"但我們藉這樣一張連署之後我們延伸幾個問題啊就是說如果在接下來的這個連署不管是哪一區我們今天講不要講哪一區出現了這樣子筆跡相同但是名字顯然虛構資料有嚴重偽物的這樣一個情況之下這算不算偽造文書有沒有犯罪"},{"start":8264.815,"end":8290.966,"text":"筆跡對不起剛剛我沒有講清楚我說筆跡都很像嘛這個顯然是同一人所為嘛然後他亂寫一通好不管這個人是什麼動機對不對但他做了這樣一個行為該當何罪還是沒有關係隨便他簽的名他自己簽的名對啊就是這樣你就以這一張來講嘛就是顯然是完全虛構的資料你填在聯署書上你把它交出去了那當然在查對之後他就被篩選掉了他也不是簽自己的名"},{"start":8291.616,"end":8312.383,"text":"看起來也不是嘛對不對或是亂簽嘛對不對那狀況是什麼我只是問這個樣態你是可以處理還是不能處理但是唐太宗不一定是唐朝那個唐太宗啊也許真的有人姓唐名叫太宗對嘛所以我還問你怎麼處理啊所以這個還是偽造文書啊還是偽造文書真的確定齁那你們有沒有能耐本事去追查嗎"},{"start":8313.564,"end":8332.979,"text":"你們有能力去追查嗎而且我們也沒有責任去追查你們也沒有責任去追查你剛剛一陣直言講這是偽造文書但沒有責任追查我們就告發要告發對不對那請問現在很多區可能或多少都有這樣的狀況有些地方有些地方沒有那你們是不是有一個統一的機制回去做統一的告發"},{"start":8335.055,"end":8361.545,"text":"統一的機制我們現在都是就是地方報上來之後經過我們委員會的審查通過了確認了我們就告發了就會告發從地方選委會告發還是從中選會告發從中選會告發然後這本議題提醒你這樣可能很多一定要嚴查嚴辦因為這一次空前的混亂導致的狀況其實要延伸出來是我的個資有沒有外洩啊有沒有什麼名冊啊等等不管藍綠都可能會有這樣一個狀況所以"},{"start":8363.466,"end":8388.792,"text":"順著這個我往下講現在我們二階連署送進來之後是不是進入所謂的勾機的程序也就是說所有連署都要跑戶政系統對不對是吧我們確定一下遊戲規則每一張都會跑對不對因為你要確定到底這個連署合不合格嘛他有沒有設計滿四個月身份證知道對不對戶籍地址是否正確嘛對不對所以是不是要跟系統來做借接會全面查核還是只是抽查"},{"start":8389.838,"end":8417.634,"text":"全面一定是全面嘛每一張每一張都要key嘛對不對都要進去系統來做處理嘛那如果這樣子出來之後他當然會篩選掉一大部分如果是錯的假的有的沒的當然都會被篩選掉但接下來還是有可能會發生這樣的狀況當然不會是那個古人連署啦很有可能是是是大量筆跡相同的這樣的一個狀況嘛所以他同樣是你剛剛講的偽造文書的樣態對不對因為只要不是本人處理他就是偽造文書嘛是吧"},{"start":8419.844,"end":8438.567,"text":"本人簽名對不是本人簽名就是偽造文書嘛你要像這一張他可能這個當然是比較好笑是都是古人連署不是本人簽名當然就是偽造文書嘛對所以你第一階段可以篩選掉很多錯的連署書那當做該做要做好我們已經把它釐清了是第二階段現在所謂的查對的部分"},{"start":8439.108,"end":8455.332,"text":"其實就是我們的這個選務機關在做查對的時候看到了筆跡相似嘛很有可能是抄寫的一個狀況嘛所以是不是機制上是不是就記所謂的查對單做double check對不對會有這個機制會有這樣的機制本期在這邊就很認真的建議這一次因為這個選區的數量非常多而且狀況空前混亂而且大家高度質疑這都是現在的社會現實"},{"start":8465.015,"end":8482.67,"text":"所以為了解決這樣的事情重塑中選會的公信力我們是希望可以充分讓各個地方的選委會尊重地方的需求嘛因為我到底要計多少的查對單我要用什麼樣的標準大家可能有各自的判斷有可能反映各選區的一個狀況跟焦慮嘛對不對中選會會有統一的政策指導嗎"},{"start":8484.163,"end":8508.648,"text":"中選會按照法律的規定法律怎麼規定我們怎麼執行法律的規定是有偽造的嫌疑你這個查罪人員根據你的專業只要判斷有偽造的嫌疑就可以記對不對並不是說沒有嫌疑你不能亂記嘛 這個我同意要基隆那一次要記兩萬五千份 那沒有道理"},{"start":8509.434,"end":8530.619,"text":"但是如果你可以找出具體的跡證也就是說筆記相似或是大量印章等等是不是就可以涉嫌疑的部分所以我們跟地方強調你不能夠要求定量的去濟發不可以但是同樣的也不會有數量的上限對不對當然但前提都是本於嫌疑這件事情有嫌疑"},{"start":8530.899,"end":8551.373,"text":"好所以你也不會下政策指導說不能超過多少量對不對沒有沒有但是你也不能主動講一定要有多少量對不對意思是這樣是好謝謝這一部分我們在質詢的時候做一個釐清讓大家後面做參考這是有關於連署跟茶隊我們是希望重演啦因為大家現在都在傳各自外洩那是一個大的問題希望大家好好面對來第二個"},{"start":8554.941,"end":8574.006,"text":"談一下募款的問題現在很多罷免因為法無明文啊那到底是可以募款還是不能募款主委法律沒有規定沒有規定所以是可以的嗎你的意思是這樣這不歸我們管的不歸你們管 歸誰管這是政治縣內政部跟監察院"},{"start":8574.588,"end":8599.998,"text":"以你目前的了解,你也算法學專家嘛以你目前的了解,如果外面有募款行為會發生什麼事我不方便幫主管機關來做答覆你沒有不方便幫主管機關做答覆啊不方便,不方便哪裡不方便,你要不要說明一下因為越權啊越權啊這法律就是法律啊,法律的權勢就是法律的權勢啊萬一講錯了不好意思啊萬一講錯了會不好意思,真的假的"},{"start":8601.595,"end":8629.374,"text":"這個現在這個狀況是政治獻金法是對從事競選活動或其他政治相關活動之團體個人或團體無償提供動產不動產不當對價之己負債務之免除或其他經濟利益嘛這是政治獻金法的白紙黑字的規定嘛那基本上符合啦競選跟其他政治活動的捐款其實都符合應該要符合政治獻金法的守備範圍啦但是政治獻金法的規定啦Social政治獻金者以政黨政治團體及你參選人為限"},{"start":8631.294,"end":8646.38,"text":"所以其實是罷免狀況是非常特殊的啊因為他理論上他是政治相關活動但是他參與罷免不管是被罷方或者是發起方都不是政黨政治團體跟你參選人嘛對不對那就出現問題啦"},{"start":8648.601,"end":8674.201,"text":"所以我們今天是難得要討論這樣的事情結果你說你不方便詮釋那不是很奇怪嗎有主管機關他們有主管機關來詮釋是不是不過有這樣子奇奇怪怪的事情我們也不怕在這個地方曝一曝光因為這發生在我們桃園啊對不對桃園就有講說有的明明不見得是這個領銜人或者是他其他的身份但是他就以什麼六區的名義什麼大聯盟就開始對外來進行募款"},{"start":8675.547,"end":8700.359,"text":"我是希望這件事情走到最後標準要一致啊要嘛就是可以募款要嘛就是不能募款其實就是這樣而已嘛對不對我希望不要出現雙標的行為啦如果這個東西其實明明上應該不是無法可管啦而是應該該管而且可以管因為我剛剛已經講政治先進法但是李主委你剛剛的回答很清楚啊你說這不是主管機關我是很害怕這件事情又變成踢皮球啦今天內政部有來嗎"},{"start":8702.227,"end":8720.392,"text":"夜報沒關係我們後面還有時間再來討論但是我是希望這件事情政府你要操辦選務啊這些東西也都會跟選舉的公信力跟社會的質疑等等都會產生關聯啊所以我不希望主委是用不是主管機關我怕越選就逃避這樣的問題你們要商量一下這東西到底應該怎麼辦可以嗎"},{"start":8721.977,"end":8741.009,"text":"募款的部分啊總要給社會大眾一個說法嘛全責機關如果就這個問題他們有跟我們要求提供意見那基於機關之間彼此的溝通我們會提供你提供了沒 他問了沒 他沒問他一點興趣都沒有 最好就遊走在灰色地帶把這種"},{"start":8743.038,"end":8765.89,"text":"名為罷免搞不好實際上在吸金的行為都當隨便是這樣嗎我相信他沒有定見沒有定見他沒有定見滿危險的好最後一個一分鐘的問題不好意思啊主席這個我們選舉喔是有說明會對不對罷免也有說明會可是選舉的說明會規則好像比較詳細也就是說參選人超過三分之二以上同意就可以進行交叉結論變成辯論會罷免呢"},{"start":8768.809,"end":8784.443,"text":"罷免沒有這個規定沒有這個規定對不對所以罷免是沒有公辦辯論會對不對政見發表會只有發表會沒有辯論會我如果跟我的對手都同意改成辯論會也不行對不對因為與法無懼嘛沒有這個規定那主委你覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":8787.78,"end":8815.062,"text":"呃...主委你也是老民進黨人啊老民進黨人都是辯論好手嘛對不對我想我想政治工作常常就是要把話表達清楚民間可能會有興趣民間可能會有興趣好我希望民間有興趣啦但是我要藉這個機會重新提醒選舉應該要辯論罷免更應該要辯論因為罷免四射有可能是少數要罷免多數的問題當然應該要用說清楚講明白的方式讓資訊可以用對稱的方式來呈現我想主委不會否認這樣的民主精神吧"},{"start":8816.325,"end":8840.436,"text":"提供充分的資訊給選民我想這是有必要的嘛對不對其實我過去在你之前做業務報告我也提過我說我們選舉公辦證件會太少了每一場選舉公辦證件會就只有一場而且還可以愛來不來對不對所以到了最後走著走著選舉越來越畸形每個人都掛看板掃市場結果該發表證件很少發表證件我是慢慢希望台灣的選舉走向公費選舉公費選舉公費公投公費罷免"},{"start":8843.197,"end":8865.45,"text":"你才能避免財力的不均等造成選務的不公平造成競爭的不公平應該是這樣說所以怎麼去做其實應該是選務機關帶頭增加相關的場次嘛每一次的選舉我們應該增加公辦證件會跟公辦辯論會的場次罷免你當然應該要有辯論會的機制嘛而不是只是哎呀我們就留於形式以前反正只是說明說明也沒幾個案例史無前例我不希望後面還有惡例啊"},{"start":8866.511,"end":8879.799,"text":"但是這個事情該說清楚 主委不反對資訊的呈現要對稱啦這是你們自己辦法裡面可以修改的情緒 中委會思考一下要修法要修法 我看這是辦法吧 等一下罷免辯論應該是辦法辯論要修法好沒關係 我們也許可以列入後面修法的參考但是主委你會不會站成這樣的方向我會尊重你們會尊重"},{"start":8895.629,"end":8904.413,"text":"好啦希望喔這個罷免選舉這樣子搞下去喔全國血流成河之雨不要傷害了大家對於中選會的公信力就好啦好謝謝"},{"start":8930.819,"end":8933.102,"text":"好 辛苦 請李主委李主委有請委員好"},{"start":8941.003,"end":8962.978,"text":"主委辛苦我先謝謝牛許廷召委今天很關心我們中選會的業務來排這一個業務報告那其實我也知道最關心的是即將被罷免可能二階之後即將投票然後包含的這些種種的這些過程我想大家都提出一些問題"},{"start":8964.451,"end":8984.485,"text":"那其實他們最想知道的是什麼我說被罷免的人即將現在已經二階已經送件送到選委會然後現在正在審查審查期間有多久40天嘛40天所以如果是今天送件的話"},{"start":8985.953,"end":9013.187,"text":"如果是今天是5月7號送件的話如果他是達標的他是沒有他是他的查對是沒有問題的40天內所以他最快應該是在一個月6月中旬就成案了對不對是那6月中旬成案之後20天到60天內舉行投票對不對是"},{"start":9013.922,"end":9039.887,"text":"那如果20天內舉行20天舉行投票的話最快最快是7月就可以投票了7月上旬7月上旬就可以投票了這一次的罷免團體非常的特別從什麼時候開始的從去年開始國民黨跟民眾黨推動國會擴權法案"},{"start":9042.898,"end":9069.546,"text":"引發很多人的注意從沈博洋委員被推下發言台那一刻開始立法院外面的青鳥集結從國會跨權法案被宣告無效之後國民黨跟民眾黨持續推動限訴法要讓憲法法庭宣告違憲的憲法法庭沒有辦法開會"},{"start":9071.013,"end":9092.151,"text":"持續推動選罷法的修法要求未來如果要聯署罷免的人要附身份證繼續推動刪除很多的預算把預算做了很多的刪除引發這些罷免團體從"},{"start":9096.909,"end":9122.575,"text":"二月開始集結送件最快是二月三號四號開始送件也就是符合一年開始送件其實這個過程裡面有給他們補考的機會如果二月三號以後一接送件在行政院提出預算的附議三月十二號投票的時候其實我想"},{"start":9124.298,"end":9153.226,"text":"如果讓總預算順利的可以復翼的話那這些二階不會那麼踴躍畢竟二階刪掉畢竟總預算刪掉的包含在這個委員會裡面海委會海巡署被刪掉的預算被捅刪15%的預算是捅刪掉台灣國防15%的預算裡面包含今年海巡署有兩艘艦艇可能沒有辦法交艦"},{"start":9156.119,"end":9181.012,"text":"是這樣嚴重的這些過程累積這些二階的連署讓這些二階的連署現在到今天過了從一階開始過來到現在從二月到現在過了三個月二階連署目前剛剛主委報告已經有二十件送件了那還有三十件還是在連署當中那一我的估計"},{"start":9183.196,"end":9204.57,"text":"看所有這些公民團體的這些數量的這些估計以我們的估計這個禮拜可能還會有很多的送件那這禮拜還會有很多的送件將都會集中在7月中旬以前投票那所以國民黨他現在跟民眾黨各提了兩個公投法"},{"start":9205.373,"end":9230.274,"text":"公投法的規定是每年的八月八月的什麼時候要投票八月二十三八月二十三也就是離七月中旬還有一個月的時間所以剛剛有國民黨的委員吶要求主委要求你要把罷免投票跟公投綁在同一天這個是他們以為他們可以補考的機會主委你不用回答"},{"start":9231.377,"end":9257.172,"text":"因為 霸團每一個人所有這些青鳥們他們這三個月來每天在外面擺攤別的年輕人在聽音樂會另外一批年輕人跑到音樂會門口希望他們的朋友們希望關心台灣未來的這些朋友們一起參加罷免來保護台灣的民主來針對去年種種的這些亂象來罷免"},{"start":9260.336,"end":9281.446,"text":"他不是要中選會你去喬時間他們已經辛苦在外面三個月了三個月辛辛苦苦每一張請所有的認同他們的人來提出的罷免聯署書可以讓你們這樣子要求跟公投一起一起投票你們就答應嗎我覺得"},{"start":9283.612,"end":9308.006,"text":"要非常尊重所有的罷免團體因為我們看到這些年輕人他們已經在外面已經很辛苦的簽了三個月如果你一個選務機關可以直接裁定把他們辛辛苦苦這個禮拜就送件七月中就要投票硬是要往後延我覺得這個是不對的所以 主委"},{"start":9309.505,"end":9324.688,"text":"尊重罷免團體的這些憤怒尊重罷免團體的這些時程我覺得中選會也必須要有一定的尊照這些法律規定的這些時間來做執行 主委你會不會尊照"},{"start":9326.4,"end":9345.685,"text":"選罷法裡面目前包含40天查核期包含成案之後20天到60天投票20天裡面的這些裁量他們已經憤怒很久了已經3個月了接下來再40天4個月了希望中選會可以秉公的來處理"},{"start":9347.479,"end":9372.519,"text":"报告委员每一个案件它的进行的时程不同所以它成案的时间所以我刚刚跟你讨论的时间就是在我们现在刚刚业务报告里面有讲的20件包含这一周都还在送件的这些进度里面我推算的时间主委刚刚也有推算出来是在7月中旬"},{"start":9373.34,"end":9394.125,"text":"但是他不會是所有的案件都是在那一邊所以可能會有落差那如果沒有補件明顯超過這一些我們現在就可以看到明顯超過百分之一百二一百三的這一些可能就很有機會在七月中旬我們大概是三個原則第一個原則就是必須要合法"},{"start":9394.96,"end":9422.734,"text":"因為每一個案件就是法律規定在他宣告成立之後20到60天之內要辦理投票這一定要符合法律的規定第二個一定要在這個社會成本的考量之下你這樣不斷地動彎社會輔助最大的成本這當然我們選務機關也不會看到那第三個還要考慮到我們選務的能量我們可以打幾打"},{"start":9424.475,"end":9445.885,"text":"所以我們基於這三個考量按照每一個案子進行的時序我們會提到委員會去來做審慎的決定最後他們補考的題目我也講一下啦國民黨提出的公投有兩個一個是反廢死一個是反戰爭"},{"start":9448.7,"end":9475.911,"text":"大概這兩個但是他的這些內容文字明顯的很難處理讓人很難去做這個公投的投票所以如果立法院提出的違反公投法第二條的公投案第二條就是說他不是法律的覆決他不是立法原則的創制他是重大政策的創制或覆決但是他的重大政策裡面的問句又特別多你沒有辦法讓人民判斷"},{"start":9476.897,"end":9480.573,"text":"請問中選會要怎麼處理我們還有什麼救濟的手段"},{"start":9481.219,"end":9506.919,"text":"中選會是依法來執行職務他如果違反第二條立法院根據公民投票法15條第二項的規定他是可以就公民投票法第二條第二項第三款也就是所謂的重大政策的創制或複決來交付公投重大政策說不要戰爭不要戰爭就是說"},{"start":9510.401,"end":9536.456,"text":"這個國防 我們跟美國買太多國防會惹怒中國可能會引發戰爭這樣合理嗎這個是最基本的條件我是不敢說它合不合理最基本的條件就是說你一定要護航你提出來的案子必須是重大政策的覆決或創制那我們中選會就會跟著辦下去好 謝謝主委時間的關係 謝謝"},{"start":9538.867,"end":9548.65,"text":"好 謝謝李柏鈺委員的質詢下一位我們請賴思豹委員質詢我們在賴委員質詢完之後休息五分鐘進行第四天的溝通好 請賴思豹委員質詢謝謝主席以及各位先進有請中選會的李金勇主委李主委有請委員好"},{"start":9565.305,"end":9589.121,"text":"主委好,我最近這一陣子才知道地方選委會是空的,是假的裡面的成員都是你們的大概少數一兩個是地方政府的總幹事是他們的秘書長其他都是你們派的中選會是中央派出的機關不是,我是說地方選委會"},{"start":9590.656,"end":9594.941,"text":"地方選委會是中央派出的機關所以他的專職的人員都是我們派出的"},{"start":9599.554,"end":9624.7,"text":"所以地方選委會做什麼決定要你們決定沒有沒有沒有地方選委會做什麼決定要經過地方選委會的委員會議來做決定那也是合一致的請問你這個比如說台北市政府台北市議會如果通過對台北市選委會選委會的一些的要求算不算數"},{"start":9626.257,"end":9645.263,"text":"台北市議會這個嚴格的講起來我們地方的選委會並不受地方議會的監督了並不受他監督建議也不可以建議你各方的建議我們都願意聆聽那我現在就跟你講一個這個這個這個事實上都很清楚了其實"},{"start":9651.908,"end":9664.579,"text":"藍綠都有抄的一個現象不是只有說藍軍在抄綠軍也有抄啦可是大家都清楚的你們中選會也好什麼也好藍軍就特別嚴格綠軍就是好過好過這不對你聽我講你不要急著查對嘛這個查對都是地方的護證機關他們主要查對你聽我講"},{"start":9679.131,"end":9687.837,"text":"事實上我就親耳聽到啦某一個民進黨的大老旗的立委就丟出來工會名單給人家抄啊工會的名單啦要再提抄啊"},{"start":9692.33,"end":9694.631,"text":"我比較難過了反正這個東西外界的質疑"},{"start":9709.597,"end":9712.64,"text":"我覺得如果委員講得如此具體的話委員也可以依法去告發不要忍在肚子裡面不是我們那是司法機關我都可以告訴你"},{"start":9736.261,"end":9763.55,"text":"我的選區有一個里長請問里長可以不可以去挨家挨戶按電影說請你來連署來罷免誰可不可以可不可以里長可不可以里長這個也不是中選會管的有沒有去可以不可以也有沒有去侵擾到這個人民的他就是跟跟每一個他的里裡面每一個在敲門請你連署有沒有違反相關的法令尤其是社會秩序違法可以不可以"},{"start":9764.15,"end":9772.517,"text":"我就問你可不可以嗎這個要看他具體的狀況有權責機關我已經跟你講夠具體的有權責機關來認定權責機關是誰權責機關是誰這個至少他可能牽涉到的會不會違反了社會秩序維護法如果是違反社會法的話那就是檢查機關了檢查機關起地這個因為有人就跟我告訟了我數字都有啊我只是想說到底要找誰我都不知道找誰啊"},{"start":9794.758,"end":9815.723,"text":"我都不知道找誰啊他就一家一家按電鈴一家一家按電鈴請問你里長可以介入這次罷免嗎里長可以嗎公務員可不可以公務員要秉持行政中立對公務員不可以啊里長可不可以里長可不可以請問你你告訴我里長他怎麼樣"},{"start":9818.109,"end":9837.525,"text":"介入 到底是如何介入啊請人家連署罷免或者請人家告訴人家不要罷免這個東西里長可不可以介入他不要動用到這個公家的資源不要動用到他里長的身份的話應該是沒有這個他才來就是里長啊他怎麼樣就是里長啊"},{"start":9840.387,"end":9854.271,"text":"人家之所以理他,就是因為他里長啊,不然的話任何人張三理事開門,他怎麼開門呢?晚上怎麼開門呢?就里長來跟你哭哭哭,欸我是里長啊,開門這個喔,你來喔,來看這個喔整個里長一站一站哀呼耶,里長這樣做耶然後中選會都沒事情耶,地方選委會都沒事情耶"},{"start":9864.332,"end":9885.728,"text":"不是說他沒事,是中選會,這不歸中選會管嘛對不對,警察就跟人家講說這不是說管人,這中選會管人,他就是中選會啊跟警察講,警察說是中選會委員德高望重,這資深的委員應該知道他的權責怎麼劃分的另外啊,其實有很多人被抄了不知道"},{"start":9887.088,"end":9908.049,"text":"所以呢地方議會就希望說我提高那種發信的比例即便一個比如說台北市來講五個被罷了立委一個算五份好不好就叫二十幾萬二十幾萬人一戶充二十塊錢好了油資來回幾百萬都負擔得起啊為什麼因為已經發信了徐曉新議員都已經揭露了"},{"start":9911.372,"end":9918.134,"text":"今天他的名字被抄了,明天詐騙集團就來了,詐騙集團就來了告訴你什麼地方可以借錢啊,來啦他想說奇怪,我個資,我個資因為他被抄啦被插上去啦,被人抄去,還沒去賭,賭了就不好都不好啊,現在來講,藍軍高樓他都不理啊可能是這樣啦,台灣這個社會可能在這裡啦"},{"start":9937.319,"end":9963.534,"text":"你知道嗎?我去找都有顧啦,找警察都不理啦,很可憐啦,真的現在整個來講,我們台灣的政治,其實罷免就罷免的尊重事實上我們就看得到,今天的懲案這麼多,要不是第二階段,民進黨強力介入,都有誇大喔我的山谷裡面,三海民進黨的議員,目前的三千分以上,高來,有要高五千分?高來,都這樣?"},{"start":9966.929,"end":9985.935,"text":"都這樣教沒有民進黨的支持我告訴你通過第二階的十個人都不到我跟你講我們依法查對啦至於他怎麼來的只要是合法來的都可以所以我就跟你講是說當地方的包括台北市議院民進黨喔簡淑培議員喔你電視看得到嗎"},{"start":9987.731,"end":10002.978,"text":"他都要求蔣萬安市長應該提高罰金的比例民進黨議員要求國民黨的市長做這個事情結果你說不可以 結果你說不可以中選會認為說這樣子的做法是於法無據"},{"start":10004.366,"end":10012.99,"text":"沒有啦,你們那個不是法律,那個是行政指導,帶動你那個位階很低啊,那不是法律啊不是行政指導,不是行政指導,這個就是行政指導啊,我們規定的啊你們規定的也含糊,你們說又有抄襲之嫌,又有重複之嫌我每天看到都有重複,我每天都有重複,很主觀的啊"},{"start":10027.877,"end":10054.712,"text":"所以我是覺得你不會限制壓制人家這個是極端化啦我們的公務員他不會如此的做法每一個人都要負起責任的並不是說查對了然後你把它封起來不會再去被檢驗可能會被檢驗請問你現在打字也可以啊可以對啊打字可以怎麼打字名字不可以打字名字不可以打字名字印章也可以啊印章也可以啊"},{"start":10056.673,"end":10065.141,"text":"印章不能偷刻的啊對啊那你怎麼知道偷刻所以你印章可以當裡面打字都是用打字的他怎麼會看出來這個是兩個一樣打字當然都一樣啊你怎麼區別所以這個"},{"start":10069.525,"end":10092.75,"text":"太多漏洞了太多你們的主觀的權利太大了中選會不應該有這麼大的權利而且你那個底下是行政之道現在我就跟你講因為被抄的被抄之後他的個資外洩產生了很嚴重的後果詐騙集團已經到他家來了我現在跟你講的是有時有據的我們找了警察去農博站"},{"start":10093.83,"end":10120.608,"text":"即便我這麼自身利誤因為你們在當家他不敢得罪你我們中選會一再的強調所謂的查對是由地方政府的互證機關跟地方選委會我們的人員他們分別來查對整合之後才送中央不是中央直接去查對所以這個我剛剛有提到"},{"start":10122.409,"end":10123.771,"text":"我剛剛講說連地方的議員都說拜託你們多記一點因為這個有個資外洩的問題很嚴重你們不同意啊"},{"start":10131.618,"end":10150.938,"text":"不是 這個不合法嘛 怎麼同意呢怎麼會沒有規定呢即使是行政規定 也是法律授權 也是法律授權那個是位階很低很低很低的啦真的位階非常低的啦 不要唬人家啦"},{"start":10153.921,"end":10176.57,"text":"你不要為了這個防堵一些這個可能發生的危險而去妨礙絕大多數人行使他的權利已經發生了你這樣子講你全部都發你去妨礙多少人行使他權利都發財知道我個子有沒有被盜個子被盜我的還有最後一個我請問你"},{"start":10178.17,"end":10194.165,"text":"現在為什麼有些人開始見訊收到了說請他去聯署他不是個子被盜嗎我的電話裡面就我的簡訊就有人傳來了啊你有沒有去聯署啊 我要報名稅啊有沒有聯署啊都來啊"},{"start":10195.194,"end":10215.875,"text":"這不是各自被盜嗎我們選務機關不會把這個資料去外洩的我們選務機關不會外洩的我覺得你們太多事情了如果有的話如果有的話歡迎委員能夠提供我們主動來查主動來移送我們對你是一點希望都沒有的因為你的歷史太偏了不然你再來問"},{"start":10219.181,"end":10221.743,"text":"你沒有信任我,你又來問我我問你都答對了,我問你都答對了,什麼都不可以鐵板一塊,綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠"},{"start":10241.637,"end":10250.283,"text":"好 謝謝賴司法委員的質詢現在按照剛剛的宣告我們休息五分鐘請各黨團針對臨時提案部分把握時間進行溝通現在休息"},{"start":11083.786,"end":11092.072,"text":"報告委員會我們繼續開會因為臨時提案有一些要上代溝通所以我們現在稍微調整一下我們先請吳清明委員質詢完之後再進行處理現在請吳清明委員質詢好主席我們一會同仁請我們中選會主委李主委有請"},{"start":11112.579,"end":11127.893,"text":"主委辛苦了今天早上很多都是談那個罷免還有幽靈的連署還有死亡的連署因為這都造成非常大的衝擊讓全國大家民眾都在看尤其我本身也是"},{"start":11129.074,"end":11139.843,"text":"所以在這種問題 這都是要做徹底的改觀因為你造假來連署 這都對社會的事情都不好所以分析在這裡 也要建議我們中選會是不是可以研究一下今天我們所有的市民 他要知道他有連署或沒有 還是去造假"},{"start":11151.3,"end":11175.627,"text":"是不是說在網路上我們現在資訊都很透明是不是說在網路上他個人也不涉及到各自的問題他個人要上網去查輸入於他自己的自然人憑證有的去查到說他確實有沒有去連署或是有人冒用他的名字去連署這是不是說未來我們要徹底的改觀"},{"start":11180.897,"end":11205.877,"text":"這個我們考慮到的第一個就是個人資料的一個保護恐怕需要再深入的討論那關於這個電子的部分我們現在就罷免的部分是罷免連署的電子罷免案的電子連署大概這個系統我們已經建立的差不多了"},{"start":11206.878,"end":11220.029,"text":"如果認為說要開放個人的查詢的話可不可能在現有系統的情況之下架構之下來增加它的功能這個都要做進一步的討論"},{"start":11221.615,"end":11238.306,"text":"我希望主委我們還是要擔當這個我們中選委一定要對民眾有一個交代民眾比較透明去了解說到底他有沒有去冒用有沒有被冒用或是臨時有沒有不實"},{"start":11239.526,"end":11264.04,"text":"讓他們更為透明化這是本市的建議讓我們可以檢討民眾的疑慮再來呢因為我早上我看我們中選會的經費我們的一倍金剩100萬那你未來這二接的發明二接要即將邁入三接的"},{"start":11265.561,"end":11277.547,"text":"的選舉那你這個經費過嗎這當然不過當然不過我看到行政院的一倍金也剩差不多一千多萬那未來你要怎樣去辦這個選舉呢"},{"start":11279.597,"end":11299.036,"text":"這個一定要申請行政院准於動之第二預備金因為這個金額也相當龐大對啊對啊所以你那個經費你也是要先去處理啊是我們行政院也很關心我們經常保持聯繫對對好那再來就是問我新北市啦我新北市的選區"},{"start":11300.818,"end":11317.604,"text":"現在我我我手上我看很多媒體都在報導說新莊新莊有7個議員他平均是一個議員是60457人那土室三英平均有"},{"start":11318.704,"end":11340.993,"text":"有十個議員平均是六萬兩千四百八十人那一個議員還多了兩千人那媒體都在報導啊說我們山陰地區啊我們議員會少一席啊領口會增加一席啊那我看那個人口的結果裡面下去算的比例我們這邊還多了兩千多人啊"},{"start":11341.613,"end":11350.083,"text":"那是不是請主委我們新北市誰負責的找他們來回覆好不好好 那請主秘來說評一下"},{"start":11353.478,"end":11369.788,"text":"跟委員報告那有關那個下一屆這個直轄市議員的名額分配如果我們是在以往例是在11月投票的話我們是以明年的這個5月底的人口數那由內政部會把這個應選名額來"},{"start":11372.452,"end":11401.812,"text":"含資給中選會來做辦理那所以要以明年五月的這個人口數來作為基礎計算明年五月才能確定那我請問一下你說人口數他也是照這個人口數的比例比如說新莊現在一個議員平均六萬人那土石山陰現在平均數是六萬兩千多人那應該缺少應該是新莊那邊不可能是"},{"start":11405.015,"end":11413.584,"text":"未來內政部核算這個名額給我們的時候他就會去考慮這個名額分配還有人口計算的一個基礎"},{"start":11415.483,"end":11430.194,"text":"還是以人口吧對好這是本期因為我最近我看了很多媒體都在報導土司山林會少一席新莊新莊那邊不動那林口那邊會增加一席所以我趁這個我們中選會的時候來問大家"},{"start":11434.097,"end":11449.527,"text":"好那謝謝主秘好主委最近辛苦了真的好主委真的我們中選會真的他們都是非常辛苦了那人手又少那經費又少這其實這都是要改觀的"},{"start":11452.229,"end":11469.476,"text":"不然你這樣又來又搬的活動 又搬的選舉都是要花錢啦你一個罷免案我看起碼都要花一千萬以上嘛那你全國那麼多起碼花了算好幾億這都是經費的問題啊所以我們會更加審慎辦理各項選務好 謝謝主委謝謝委員好 謝謝吳啓明委員的質詢好 現在我們處理"},{"start":11482.533,"end":11508.104,"text":"這個臨時提案 臨時提案總共計三案請宣讀臨時提案一近期新聞媒體與社群上偶有地方選舉委員會對罷免連署書以尺寸工具或其他器材加以丈量之說辭為中央選舉委員會下稱中選會否認有發生相關情勢為人應積極掌握各地方選舉委員會執行情形確保各地方選委會合法查對"},{"start":11508.775,"end":11525.619,"text":"且审核标准一致不得以无从救济之方式剔除联署书令就后续查对作业程序也应掌握各地方政府选举委员会之处理作业情形避免个人资料外泄或再发生非法访问调查联署人之情事提案人委员苏巧慧等六人"},{"start":11526.687,"end":11549.88,"text":"临时提案二就114年公职人员罢免案提议阶段之详细查对结果虽中央选举委员会以下简称中选会之罢免案查对结果会定期公告于中选会之委员会议记录但民众实际上仍需仰赖新闻媒体作为收取公职人员罢免案资讯之主要来源因媒体之报道较为详尽时效上也较为快速"},{"start":11550.58,"end":11566.14,"text":"然有鉴于个别媒体之报道速度与资讯详实度不一显然保障人民参政权与知情权之公平性资讯亦可能因不同媒体之报道内容有落差而陷入混乱不仅不利公众讨论亦不利人民参政权的行使"},{"start":11567.492,"end":11592.459,"text":"且有審中選會公正主持選務之形象原要求中選會延役並於114年5月委員會議討論就罷免案之詳細查對結果統計資訊於各階段實質審查完畢後統一公開上網以落實人民知情權及參政權之內涵保障我國選務公平公正公開之形象提出書面報告並向"},{"start":11593.419,"end":11620.005,"text":"本院内政委员会提出书面报告提案人委员苏巧慧等六人临时提案三现行罢免联署的查对作业缺乏客观的认定标准查对标准程序及相关人包括罢免领衔人被罢免人的参与查对机制查对作业的公开透明是确保罢免成案的正确性可信任性的基础"},{"start":11620.492,"end":11632.762,"text":"原提案請中央選舉委員會盡速提案修正相關法律法規並在修法前在合法範圍內落實執行查對作業的公開透明提案人委員許新穎等三人宣讀完畢好這個第一案跟第二案的部分第一案經過這個跟中選會的溝通已經達成共識"},{"start":11647.386,"end":11662.871,"text":"那麼第二案也達成共識 做文字的修正好 所以我們第一案跟第二案照文字修正的部分來通過 照案通過 可以嗎好 謝謝 那第三案的部分我們再進行文字上的一些修正"},{"start":11676.822,"end":11701.283,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":11705.731,"end":11719.221,"text":"超級超級超級超級"},{"start":11725.606,"end":11748.864,"text":"這樣就好對啊,這已經是你啦你現在就...你現在就...你現在就...你現在就...你現在就..."},{"start":11751.288,"end":11777.686,"text":"有超過 別人同樣一個人超過只有三張第三張的肌肉部門還在附近那這個現象這裡就有五張對不對然後三張都不見了天上就有五張 說不定就是一張三張的肌肉部門還在附近一張的肌肉部門還在附近一張"},{"start":11788.437,"end":11788.457,"text":"蝦仁"},{"start":11805.894,"end":11807.755,"text":"好 謝謝大家"},{"start":11826.442,"end":11829.973,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":11841.019,"end":11859.551,"text":"應該要有色光的"},{"start":11860.572,"end":11868.438,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":11875.857,"end":11896.964,"text":"法律還有未定哪些項目要相同"},{"start":11923.898,"end":11923.918,"text":"嗯。"},{"start":11947.048,"end":11947.068,"text":"謝謝觀看"},{"start":11972.686,"end":11972.706,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":11984.093,"end":12007.806,"text":"所以我們是不是可以請他們提供一份照序那我們自己吸救然後該修法的我們是免費修法就是我們可以就此來請中選會議來要求不同的地方選委因為現在的問題是在於各個地方的委員有沒有照著這個目標去做"},{"start":12009.587,"end":12032.672,"text":"對啊 都要犯罪啊沒有參加獎勵所以你們都有獎勵所以你直接叫他改直接就因為他到底要改什麼"},{"start":12035.333,"end":12061.24,"text":"所以你今天是不是單純的叫他把那東西拿出來大家給應該有做過標準器都有在你什麼什麼方法拿出來讓大家 包括你所有的老闆知道你怎麼做的他說你有應有你必須要準確的那類的說實話這樣會比較準確所以他就沒有說明就沒有辦法"},{"start":12074.665,"end":12075.146,"text":"蔣相關單位請請蔣相關單位"},{"start":12101.084,"end":12125.521,"text":"可以 可以 這是我唯一用到的就是第四線一樣的 能用到黑牙的 能用到黑牙的那 黑牙 再補一下沒在了 好 好那 那我們現在選 關門了我們現在是在選黑牙的 要 呵呵呵好了 好"},{"start":12130.913,"end":12159.695,"text":"再想想看 做好的做法再去考慮那當然 盡速就要再進行就要再考慮就要再考慮就要再考慮就要再考慮就要再考慮就要再考慮就要再考慮"},{"start":12174.778,"end":12191.724,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":12201.495,"end":12202.535,"text":"沒了沒了"},{"start":12233.659,"end":12243.804,"text":"好 謝謝經過溝通之後臨時提案我們照文字修正通過 請問委員會有意見好 謝謝臨時提案處理完畢我們繼續進行質詢 下一位我們請徐姓委員質詢"},{"start":12262.366,"end":12266.109,"text":"好謝謝主席本席有請李主委李主委有請主委好今天中選會業務報告那當然本席時間不多我想就現在我們"},{"start":12282.268,"end":12311.033,"text":"全國正在進行的罷免但是不是就這次案例我想主委你一定了解選舉罷免創制複決是人民的權利那罷免呢這個對象從立法委員到縣市長到鄉鎮市長各級民意代表縣市議員鄉鎮市民代表甚至里長都是在罷免的範圍內所以我們但是因為罷免在台灣的案例不多"},{"start":12311.833,"end":12328.542,"text":"所以可能也有很多大家不了解甚至也許我們並不是法令也不一定完善的部分所以本席今天特別提出一些部分因為時間不夠有幾個部分特別提出來"},{"start":12329.198,"end":12345.701,"text":"也跟這個主委這邊來討論首先第一個就是我想主委您應該是認同你等一下可以回答看是不是認同您是中選會所以整個中選會的業務很重要的你的公平性跟正確性是不是很重要"},{"start":12346.201,"end":12375.731,"text":"这一直是我们的核心的价值对因为尤其这个影响到选举罢免创之复绝所以公平性非常重要所以如果谈到罢免的话罢免案的形成它是要联署两阶段的联署对那但是联署很容易有伪造的情势我想卓伟也认同所以你这个伪造有各式各样譬如超名单或代签名这个是有没有罪的"},{"start":12377.355,"end":12403.415,"text":"抄名單帶簽名對然後成為他的聯署書來源是抄名單帶簽名有沒有對我想這根據一般的常識既然是偽造的應該會牽涉到刑事責任刑事責任對所以主委也也也知道那像這個很多罷免團體他可能不知道他隨隨隨隨便的抄那像這一塊中選會這個"},{"start":12405.918,"end":12430.18,"text":"有沒有什麼防範的我們就是當然我們希望我們要求每一份連署書它都是真正的都是當事人他自己簽名或蓋章你們怎麼要求是那我們就所以法律上就有所謂的查對的制度我們在第一階段也要進行查對第二階段的連署也要進行查對"},{"start":12430.991,"end":12460.129,"text":"那今天你查對你只是剔除他最後他也沒有刑責啊被你查到他有刑責嗎查到的會有刑責喔不是你你查對的時候你剔除剔除的可能有些是偽造的被你剔除我們會把這些案件移送給檢查機關他們去繼續偵辦剔除的你都會送送檢不是就是有偽造的情形一般所謂的死前連署"},{"start":12460.765,"end":12487.381,"text":"包括稻科印章包括偽造簽名這個都是可能還有抄名單抄名單這就是用抄襲的抄名單看狀況抄名單你如果只是抄上面這一部分你沒有去幫他簽名的話這是另外一個問題抄名單但是連簽就是最重要是簽名還有幫他蓋章就是自己去刻章或者是幫他代簽這個是有問題的是有問題"},{"start":12489.062,"end":12517.802,"text":"有刑責的有刑責好OK那另外就是在罷免案的形成的時候那有這種欺騙詐騙的情況好像這個大家最近聽到的他上面說利用民眾的同情心說凱開案很多家長都覺得非常的痛心這個凱開案要怎麼樣你要來連署結果底下是罷免的連署這種有沒有問題"},{"start":12519.058,"end":12530.253,"text":"這個我們查對無從查對起所以如果有這種情形它是否牽涉到犯罪相關的當事人他可以尋求司法的解決"},{"start":12533.391,"end":12558.39,"text":"但是當事人並不知道所以本席要跟你講就是說你在整個罷免案形成的時候有很多的偽造甚至欺騙詐騙的情況因為民眾所以你在核實所以我們要提到就是說你在查核查對的時候你一定要非常的落實因為有些人他簽完他覺得我今天是因為凱凱案我簽啊我不知道我簽了罷免所以像這種"},{"start":12562.418,"end":12590.761,"text":"可能也很多你今天你都用同樣的手法可能今天十張你十個人就被騙了簽署這個聯署書我們沒有辦法去審核他的動機我們只能夠就他的真假來進行查對所以有些所以在這個徵詢含詢的部分是不是應該落實而且可以擴大"},{"start":12593.121,"end":12621.869,"text":"我们还是按照法律的规定所以按照现有应该说现有法律的规定对 按照现有法律的规定觉得有疑虑的因为查对人员有他一定的专业如果他根据他的专业去判断有伪造的嫌疑的时候那他就可以发查询单好那再来剩下一点时间本席想请教有关这个恶意的谣言啊"},{"start":12623.257,"end":12643.406,"text":"在罷免期間呢很多這種謠言或是抹紅栽贓塗黑的行為他都躲在言論自由的背後躲在言論自由的大傘之下這種情況您的看法怎麼樣那一部分我們是管不到"},{"start":12644.306,"end":12671.686,"text":"我們照顧的是有很多有關選務的錯假訊息謠言在攻擊選務機關的公正那這部分我們都會立即來做澄清來做說明好那如果這樣的話本席請教你一下你看一下這個有關預算法第83條有準備嗎您看一下您看一下您看一下這樣的修法我們"},{"start":12674.741,"end":12680.802,"text":"立法我們行政院還可以提預算特別預算嗎應該還是可以吧還是有特別預算吧這個好像跟這個跟我們的不是啦我是以你法學專業法學專業那你看了一下這個法條你來判斷一下人家跟你說這個修法修下去可能我們都不可能有特別預算了你認同嗎"},{"start":12704.708,"end":12726.313,"text":"在行政院的团队里面各有所失我跟行政院没关我现在是纯粹看这个法条您本身法学背景法学素养的吗我在这个时候你避重就轻你不想查你对很多的谣言你这样是变相的对选务的部分我来负责做说明基本的判断嘛"},{"start":12727.392,"end":12750.484,"text":"所以現在我們的中選會對於整個社會上用言論自由然後但是進行栽贓抹黑抹紅謠言你們完全沒束手無策我這個時候就不能夠去介入不能夠去干預不能夠去在乎我這個時候就是要完全維持選務的中立選罷法104條是什麼您知道嗎"},{"start":12756.991,"end":12775.76,"text":"不知道那要加強一下選辦法是什麼惡意謠言的部分他雖然有規範你有沒有覺得非常的模糊"},{"start":12781.468,"end":12790.803,"text":"選辦法104條您的看法怎麼樣就是按照法律來規定的執行有違反法律的規定的那就必須要受到處罰"},{"start":12792.377,"end":12819.703,"text":"所以有散布谣言或传播不实之事这种就可以处五年以下有期徒刑那你们会执行吗有发现有这些谣言有人跟你们告发之后跟你们提出你们会告发你们会判定之后告发吗我们执行职务发现有这些状况的话那我们是必须要告发受害者可以跟你们反映吗"},{"start":12821.192,"end":12828.54,"text":"不必繞個圈子,直接跟檢察官反應都快所以中選會現在等於對於整個選務你也沒有辦法讓整個選罷法的執行能夠比較落實"},{"start":12841.27,"end":12854.843,"text":"這個是屬於司法處理的範圍之內當然我們作為執行公務的機關發現有犯罪嫌疑我們是可以告發的最後因為時間的關係你身為中選會的主委你有沒有發現台灣現在非常亂"},{"start":12861.148,"end":12876.092,"text":"謠言滿天飛你有沒有這種感覺我盡量就是能夠避開這些紛紛擾擾我要求我們的選委人員所以你是中選會的主委你完全不管現在整個你要承辦的業務他在這個過程中的情況"},{"start":12880.454,"end":12882.939,"text":"我聚焦在維護我們選務的完整選務的中立而不受任何外力的干擾"},{"start":12893.546,"end":12909.265,"text":"包括谣言的朋友好 最后那您对于所有所有的这个查对第二阶段第一阶段第二阶段查核查对罢免案的查核查对您你们都会"},{"start":12910.466,"end":12933.075,"text":"這個承諾一定都會嚴格不是嚴格就是核實如實查核按照法律規定你們一定如實查核沒有任何一點這個輕忽或者是草率隨便的查我們全國的選務工作夥伴包括資源的人員都會盡心盡力按照法律的規定來執行職務"},{"start":12935.472,"end":12960.575,"text":"好很好全民也都希望而且罷免罷免從這段時間開始全國有這種罷免的聲音本席相信之後各級民意代表可能大家對罷免已經慢慢熟悉了就像以前選舉大家不熟悉後來熟悉了對選舉未來可能罷免的這個部分在各級民意代表都有可能發生所以我們主要就是對於"},{"start":12961.816,"end":12978.67,"text":"霸團我們也要保障他們的這個權益還有被罷免人我們都希望所以我們希望中選會能夠真的把這個整個選務可以做好好謝謝委員好謝謝許新穎委員質詢報告委員會我們中午不休息我們繼續質詢下一位我們請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":12991.597,"end":13018.28,"text":"主席 各位委員有請這個主委李主委有請主委辛苦了我們看這個今天中選會的報告裡面特別提到公職人員罷免案電子連署系統整備情形特別提到這個"},{"start":13019.537,"end":13045.839,"text":"公職人員罷免案電子連署系統107年6月15號建制完成這裡面也特別提到本會將視全國性公民投票電子連署系統實際使用情形評估公職人員選罷法罷免案電子連署系統上限事宜所以這個部分預估什麼時候會開始"},{"start":13048.604,"end":13074.157,"text":"我們從去年下半年以來就積極的進行這個系統的維護測試希望他一上線之後是零缺點的因為罷免的事情也相當的敏感出不得任何的差錯所以到目前為止我們各項測試的工作進行的都相當的順利"},{"start":13075.658,"end":13097.631,"text":"不過這個時候剛好就是一個罷免潮所有的規則都是按照既定的程序在走這個時候我們就沒有去考慮說是不是要把它上限我想等到這一波過了之後我們會審慎的來律定這上限的時間好 這個因為這個選罷法也有修正"},{"start":13105.29,"end":13130.838,"text":"是这段时间选办法也有修正有没有因为选办法的修正这个系统要做因应调整的是有没有啊都有跟着都有跟着好这个那我请教一下哈公职人选举办法第七十六条这次有修正吗近期有修正吗啊就是针对这个第三项哈"},{"start":13131.94,"end":13156.643,"text":"第一項體育人名冊因依規定格式竹籃填詳時填寫填寄體育人國民身份證統一編號及附及地然後呢這裡面提到體育人填寄時應附本人之國民身份證正版面影本這樣的一個修正條文跟這個系統電子系統"},{"start":13158.866,"end":13184.122,"text":"有沒有需要怎麼樣去做沒有沒有影響因為我們的連署系統是必須要用自然人憑證那自然人憑證他就可以取代身份證那所以他不用檢附國民身份證影印本用電子連署的是不用電子連署這個在哪裡有規定電子連署就不用"},{"start":13185.556,"end":13214.57,"text":"條文法例沒有規定喔因為電子連署他本身就是用國民就是用這個志願人憑證因為這個新的修正請中選會在跟內政部這個法是內政部的嘛對不對在跟內政部協調因為寫得很明確喔應付本人之國民身份證正反面"},{"start":13215.889,"end":13242.62,"text":"銀本條文是寫的這麼明確所以不能再跟內政部好不好我們再做確認對再跟內政部因為這法是內政部的執行是你們的好好不好好然後我們看這個公職人選舉罷免法第79條有規定這個選委會說到罷免案提議後應於25日內查對提議的名冊"},{"start":13243.757,"end":13271.905,"text":"有下列情事之一者應以刪除第一款就是不符合第76條剛才有講過第76條好我們看這個還有第二款提議人有第77條第一項身份當然全部有列了六款請問一下這個以現行現行這個選委會地方選委會"},{"start":13273.547,"end":13287.03,"text":"怎么样去去针对这个条文来去做来去查核怎么样去核对用什么方式是用书面的去通知还是怎么样"},{"start":13289.062,"end":13305.077,"text":"我們這個查對是由兩個機關分別就不同的項目來進行查對一個就是當地的這個戶政機關另外一個就是我們的選委會"},{"start":13306.939,"end":13318.067,"text":"那戶政機關跟選委會他們查對的根據都是這個連署人名冊正本在選舉機關副本我們會給一份給這個戶政事務所"},{"start":13322.37,"end":13350.367,"text":"那戶政事務所就是用戶政的系統他們去做查對他查對結果之後不管是發現比如說死亡連署有這種情形的話他都會把這個結果完整的來送還給我們的選務單位選務單位彙整之後才會送到中央選舉委員會來進行最後的審查以現在的相關的這些"},{"start":13351.377,"end":13371.67,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法的規定 副政機關有辦法完全的查對嗎副政機關沒有問題 這都是用電腦去查的好 這個以前可以啊 現在恐怕好 我們看這個公職人員選舉罷免法第77條規定"},{"start":13374.433,"end":13401.553,"text":"現役軍人服替待役之現役役男或公務人員不得為罷免案提議人而這個公務人員的定義是採最廣的是公務人員服務法以前的戶籍資料是有這個職業欄現在的戶籍資料已經很久很久已經刪除了職業欄"},{"start":13403.007,"end":13406.813,"text":"所以從戶籍資料裡面是無法查對無法查對"},{"start":13413.657,"end":13439.855,"text":"連那個公務員都沒有了現在都沒有了現在我們並不是叫戶政事務所根據戶籍資料去查因為戶籍資料現在的內容它是有一些變更所以有關於現役軍人的部分是向國防部去查有嗎有有關於替代役的部分向內政部去查公務人員的部分向人總去查所以向各機關有嗎有有好人總夠不夠"},{"start":13443.446,"end":13467.54,"text":"人總夠不夠人總不是人總指向人總夠不夠還有前續部前續部夠不夠人總跟前續部大概大概夠了吧不夠不夠公務員服務法是很廣的包括公營事業的包括公營事業的非純工非純勞工的"},{"start":13468.96,"end":13481.624,"text":"所以這個部分這個人種也有這個資料人種也有這個資料沒有沒有他沒有沒有這個資料我們再確認一下確認一下好謝謝鄭天才委員的諮詢下一個我們請鍾嘉斌委員諮詢"},{"start":13510.615,"end":13519.077,"text":"主席 在黨的委員先進 列席的政務機關首長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請我們中選會李主委李主委有請主委好主委辛苦了謝謝 謝謝委員主席主委 我們稍微輕鬆一下你大學的時候有沒有參加過畢業旅行"},{"start":13535.148,"end":13554.614,"text":"沒有沒有過我們大學的時候呢流行要畢業旅行那通常呢我們畢業旅行的時候呢請看下一頁我們通常呢就會先討論啊什麼時候要去啦去哪裡啊那很重要的呢我們當我們尤其我們要去離島譬如我們要去澎湖我們就要有一個人呢擔任領隊這個領隊很重要因為呢我們去買團體票都是以這個領隊作為代表人"},{"start":13560.014,"end":13576.526,"text":"那結果呢 我們那時候班上40個人本來張三要當領隊 我們要去畢業旅行後來張三有事不能去那我們要換個人那是否民主程序多數決就即可決定結果呢 我們班上有21個人同意換理事當領隊你覺得這樣的程序符合民主原則嗎"},{"start":13580.928,"end":13604.244,"text":"這個各民間團體尤其它不是一個正式的組織我想只要大家有一個共識就是尤其有多數嘛 多數人同意說我們換理事當領隊啦好 但是呢往下看 因為講輕鬆的例子比較好理解來如果排除可能的少數是不是民主呢比如說我們現在這個選辦法去年修法的時候呢有內政委員會在審查"},{"start":13605.265,"end":13617.106,"text":"內政會有這麼多 有十三位有六位是民進黨的委員那麼另外的七位是國民黨 民眾黨跟無黨籍的委員"},{"start":13618.117,"end":13637.918,"text":"那這個時候啊這七個多數呢他們一定多數嘛多數他怎麼表決都會過結果他們排除這六個不讓這六個到參與討論您覺得這六個不見得反對喔但是七個人的意見一樣這六個有可能不同意但是就算通通不同意也不可能推翻多數嘛但是不讓這六個來參與討論這樣算不算民主啊"},{"start":13642.06,"end":13657.783,"text":"民主可不可以排除可能的少數牽涉到立法院的內規運作不變評論但是您認為從一般的社會團體來講不管那個可能的少數他的意見是否跟多數一致是不是都應該讓歡迎大家一起來共同討論"},{"start":13659.178,"end":13670.625,"text":"畢業旅行那個例子我敢講畢業旅行的例子是不是應該這樣子就是班上40個人嘛雖然21人同意說請宗家兵擔任領隊但是另外19個人也可以說那我們還是喜歡那個李靖可以這樣子啦那我們往下看現在來了現在呢我們根據公職人員選舉罷免法第76條他的提議書呢必須要有領銜人跟全體提議人一起送案嘛對不對"},{"start":13687.959,"end":13692.643,"text":"請問這個領先人的重要性是什麼?要買團體保險要偷他來擺嗎?這個領先人是什麼意思?一階段那個領先人"},{"start":13697.489,"end":13710.596,"text":"因為都是有多數包括提議人一階段我們譬如說有4000個人請這個鍾某某當任領銜人就送到我們選委會去嘛是不是那這個領銜人的狀況是什麼對選委會的立場來講的話領銜人就是這個團體的一個代表他負責跟選務機關來做對口"},{"start":13721.801,"end":13739.197,"text":"所以他有個備位嘛對不對有個備位萬一這個人找不到張生找不到理事有這樣的情況嘛那一般來講我們這次的罷免提案是不是都很多找很多有名的人像李喬先生像曹新成先生事實上會請這些人來號召讓很多人認同他一起來參與你認為這個合理嗎"},{"start":13741.769,"end":13762.945,"text":"就是找知名的人當領銜人合法的話我們就尊重合法嘛 就是一般會找領銜人 找知名的領銜人好 那我們往下看了現在問題來了那麼更換領銜人要不要詢問全體呢因為我知道目前的法條第八項規定二分之以上書面同意嘛那我這樣講啦我們有四千個人因為"},{"start":13764.808,"end":13791.34,"text":"張三他來領銜我們第一階段由張三代表我們群體送了給選委會現在張三有事情不能去要換理事那您規定說那就是原來的4000個人你們只要有一半以上的人同意換理事就OK嘛對不對法律是這樣規定是這樣好 那這是細部的操作是不是這個更換過程必須4000個人都問啊你們到底要同不同意換成理事至少要告知嘛"},{"start":13791.994,"end":13821.337,"text":"因為我第一階段我是四千個人中的假設我是之前的一個連署人今天就算是張三不能當要換理事有沒有可能要告知我需不需要法律上一般來講我有參與一個連署原來的領銜人是張三現在張三有事不能換理事那是不是要告訴我說現在要換理事我知道了那如果我同意我就把同意的回函回過去選委會就拿到說有過半數同意換理事是不是這樣子"},{"start":13822.493,"end":13840.46,"text":"法律沒有規定要4000個人都通知沒有法律沒有規定條文上沒有寫但是我說從我們民主的程序上原來這4000個人或者說畢業典禮我們40個人要去參加畢業典禮今天換領隊不管最後我要不要參加第二階段我要不要去"},{"start":13841.519,"end":13850.301,"text":"至少讓我知道現在換領隊吧需不需要那是一個修養的問題啦那是修養的問題不是法律的問題所以選委會認為我們第76號第8項當中並沒有4000個人由張三來領銜然後交到選委會後續的第二階段我們繼續連署換了理事需要"},{"start":13865.191,"end":13880.369,"text":"四千個人中過半數同意如果取得這個過半數的同意要告訴這四千個人如果有過半數同意了我們就可以跟眾人說我們來更換領先人是不是這樣子這個我們管不到管不到另外的那些管不到這些其他的"},{"start":13881.591,"end":13904.564,"text":"我們第一個就是二分之一以上的提議人書面同意而且以一次為限所以如果說四千個人當中有兩千零一個你們拿到同意就不用管那一千九百九十九個他的不同意所以他不知道也沒有影響我們要查對了你們要查對誰"},{"start":13905.624,"end":13931.521,"text":"查對這兩千零一個是否同意嘛但是你們不會去問那一千九百九十九個是不是同意 不需要 不會 不會完全不需要 不會好 來我們最後的結論啦就是說我現在呢要跟我覺得呢這個就是今天我們法律的問題啦我剛剛說從民主的一個原理基本上如果領銜人在第一階段是代表我們全體提議人法律上也允許他做更變更"},{"start":13932.722,"end":13958.038,"text":"那麼既然第一階段我參與的連署人 我知道我們是誰來當領銜今天在繼續進行二階的時候 這個領銜要更換我也同意 多數決 應該過半數同意就OK所以我們根據剛剛那個78條呢 取得過半數同意是可以但是是否應該要讓4000個人都知道我覺得這個法律上的定定啊 為病周詳啊"},{"start":13958.979,"end":13986.23,"text":"主委你覺得我們選辦法如果繼續的完善化讓罷免制度更完善不要鬧人畫餅是不是我們未來在通知第一屆聯署人的時候如果有變更領銜人的情況之下是應該要讓全體都知道我們要變更同意的拿過來我們依法辦理 是否這樣大院如果認為這樣子合適的話經過修法通過我們就拒以辦理好 謝謝主委 謝謝"},{"start":13988.958,"end":13991.902,"text":"好謝謝宗教評委員的質詢下一位我們請王宏規委員質詢好謝謝主席請李競勇李主委李主委有請"},{"start":14012.726,"end":14038.997,"text":"主委好 主委你的選舉經驗很豐富所以基本上以現在來講就是司法單位針對現在的所謂的這個連署不管死人連署或偽造連署在大規模的偵辦這個不管是過去在選舉也好或現在的罷免也好會不會影響選民的行為"},{"start":14040.73,"end":14066.553,"text":"這部分我們不便評論因為現在這個罷免的階段已經進入到第二階段可以說是我的意思是說當現在這個司法單位在大規模的這個調查的時候甚至有約刑或者有羈押會不會讓一些要去連署或者不願意去連署會改變他的行為"},{"start":14067.766,"end":14091.078,"text":"我希望委員能夠理解我們選務機關的立場在這個時間所以選務機構的立場就是以不對非選務的事項來妄作評論所以作為選務機關是以不干擾不管是選舉跟罷免最後結果為最高指導原則對吧"},{"start":14093.02,"end":14098.821,"text":"結果我們沒有辦法負責過程我們要負責過程我們要負責對過程不能去影響嘛我講的對不對你同意嗎我們完全要按照法律的規定來執行我講的這個原則就是選務機關不應該去影響到選舉或罷免的最後結果應該以這樣的一個原則根本就不應該去在乎黃論影響"},{"start":14118.025,"end":14136.736,"text":"所以我講的沒有錯嘛那我想請問一下因為在這一次檢調單位他們說他們為什麼做這麼大規模的去做調查主要是因為告發主要是因為告發那我想請問主委因為過去我們一直說過連署罷免有連署"},{"start":14144.005,"end":14169.705,"text":"公投有連署總統和副總統選舉也有連署而過去呢有沒有死亡跟偽造連署也都有或多或少也都有有的也很多譬如說當時郭台銘他有5271份包含死人連署跟偽造連署當時媒體用所謂的亡靈大軍來形容"},{"start":14171.426,"end":14190.302,"text":"中选会有没有告发中选会也是一致的都会告发但是这次中选会最大的不同是过去所有的告发有关联署告发都是在联署结束之后"},{"start":14191.863,"end":14211.768,"text":"來予以告罰 都是在整個的連署結束之後有發現 因為最後經過查對有死人連署 有這個偽造連署全部都是在連署結束之後才予以告罰有些甚至都在選舉之後再予以告罰"},{"start":14213.274,"end":14234.87,"text":"不管是過去我現在看到資料不管是從108年開始或者是去年去年有基隆市的市長選舉你們的原則都是一致的那請問一下今年為什麼不一致也就是說這個連署還在進行中"},{"start":14235.791,"end":14255.865,"text":"而中選會決定在進行中在進行式裡面就直接去告發我不曉得這樣的完全跟過去完全不一致的標準是有什麼樣的理由難道這樣子你們沒有討論過這樣子會影響連署的結果嗎"},{"start":14259.793,"end":14276.233,"text":"我很简单的讲三点理由第一点理由根据刑事诉讼法241条规定执行职务发现有犯罪嫌疑者应为告发过去也是如此职务上的告发过去也有告发所以这个告发是合法的这是第一点"},{"start":14276.493,"end":14280.934,"text":"第二點就是今年的情形非常特殊因為2月3號開始送件以後民間的告發就陸續的呈現了"},{"start":14294.838,"end":14299.221,"text":"那不但是這個樣子減掉機關從今年的2月到3月之間就一共來的14次要我們提供這些茶隊的資料也就是說這個茶隊發現的這個這個可能違法"},{"start":14313.172,"end":14328.258,"text":"過去檢調有沒有在聯署過程裡面請求中選會提出查對資料沒有這麼大規模這次是大規模所以這是第二點因為規模很大了我們乾脆就這個時候把它送過去這是第二點第三點"},{"start":14331.079,"end":14340.13,"text":"我們如果是愛惜這個制度不希望有過有太多的違法的事情發生那在它剛發生的時候你就把它堵住你過去我剛才提出來了過去這麼多這麼多的罷免"},{"start":14350.882,"end":14367.494,"text":"或者公投联署都有难道过去中选会不爱行这个联署制度吗所以你讲的挤出了三点理由唯有第二点理由你说因为是大规模是因为大规模的关系但是我刚才也跟大家说了"},{"start":14368.274,"end":14385.254,"text":"那麼當時的這個郭台銘參選總統他的規模也很大五千多份不可為之不多但是呢你們都是採取了一個在整個的連署也就是罷免成立之後"},{"start":14386.115,"end":14396.126,"text":"後才做告發所以這個是這一次確實有非常非常奇怪的完全的不一樣的標準另外請教一下這個領銜人"},{"start":14401.052,"end":14429.939,"text":"的退團那當然很多都集中在就是罷免吳思瑤委員的張克進先生那現在當然罷團他也採取了根據選罷法相關規定他們就去再要求這個提議人再通知提議人那另外一個罷團這個事實上是也是國民黨的立委就是罷羅明財委員那他這個領銜人呢他是對媒體表示他想要退團"},{"start":14431.019,"end":14457.969,"text":"但他退不了因為這個規定非常嚴格好大家都知道這個嚴格的不得了現在看起來呢除非你死掉了啊不然的話你就要很很辛苦的去要去把那個第一階段的提議人全部要要要二分之一啊那他當然他的理由是說因為他現在他本身被架空了所以很多霸團做的事情他很擔心如果有什麼違法的事情最後他都有責任好所以現在呢回過頭來就是以這兩個案例來講啊"},{"start":14461.736,"end":14488.528,"text":"現在比如說很多罷談都說他的連署的成績非常好比如說有高達140啦有人說160啦未來還說有200%啦那也就是說在整個的罷免最後的結果這麼多萬份但是因為一位的領銜人因為一位的領銜人他可能要否定全部三四萬份五萬份五萬名"},{"start":14491.309,"end":14494.477,"text":"公民選民的意願合理嗎"},{"start":14495.734,"end":14520.623,"text":"就像主委剛剛講說很珍惜這個制度但是我們現在因為領銜人退談難度之高所以使得他即便連署四萬份五萬份出來之後因為可能領銜人基於各種各樣的理由我們剛剛講各式各樣的理由他想要退但他不能退而且剛才講他連簽住戶籍他都不能退所以這樣的一個制度"},{"start":14521.621,"end":14529.652,"text":"有沒有問題也就是以一個人的意願意志可能他強壓四五萬人的意志那這樣子是民主嗎"},{"start":14531.024,"end":14557.338,"text":"所以主委這樣的一個規定還是說你們有其他法律解釋的空間沒有其他解釋的空間我必須要很清楚的講因為法律明文規定就是這個樣子但是未來是不是應該做一些修法我剛講就是說一個人去決定四五萬人的意志我一個人不玩了四五萬人也要被迫不玩了合理嗎"},{"start":14559.146,"end":14574.377,"text":"我並不反對做這樣子的討論我覺得因為在這一次很大規模我們發現這個整個的選罷法有關罷免的部分太多太多漏洞太多太多不合理的地方"},{"start":14575.097,"end":14599.856,"text":"其實身為中選會主委我還是希望主委跟整個中選會應該要本於行政中立像我剛剛所講的我覺得非常不合理的是過去的標準在這一次全部推翻而只是以為你認為這次是不是大規模這次人數是不是很多這完全是行政解釋的空間大家共同珍惜這個民主的成長"},{"start":14600.616,"end":14625.677,"text":"我是說過去不要珍惜而且我也講說中選會也本於之前去告發了當時的告發的時間點也一定是針對說我不要因為我告發而去影響最後整個的連署的結果對不對所以我覺得這一點我在這邊都是非常良善的建議我感覺得到但是我也是一樣良善所以我們在選罷罰裡面該做修正"},{"start":14628.479,"end":14648.925,"text":"我們這次你怎麼修都沒有辦法是由於這次選罷法嘛對不對我一樣是良善的態度但是我覺得基於台灣民主政治的健康的發展我覺得要做全面性的修法但是如果我們把這個中選會告發的時間的早晚過度去強調的話沒有社會會有一個錯誤的印象以為說你就靠慢慢來就好慢慢來剛發生的時候"},{"start":14656.428,"end":14672.14,"text":"這個應該也要有一致的規定就要有一致的規定而不是中選會的主委覺得我在什麼時候告發就應該什麼時候告發這是法治嗎這不是法治不能取決於主委一個人的感受如果能夠取決於主委一個人的感受這不叫民主這也不叫法治"},{"start":14679.798,"end":14696.836,"text":"什麼叫合議決定就是你們委員會這樣討論突然就這樣子突然就把它改了我覺得這個這樣的改變事實上也會成為我們整個連署裡面一大汙點好不好大家共同珍惜民主的成果謝謝威委員的諮詢下一位我們請吳立華委員諮詢"},{"start":14713.184,"end":14715.265,"text":"謝謝主席有請主委李主委有請主委好這一次罷免行動有兩位原住民立委被提議罷免那這兩位原住民立委的聯署書是送到台北市的選委會是"},{"start":14740.111,"end":14766.296,"text":"那在這個當中其實我們也看得到大家做的一個統計的數據那以我來講雖然死亡連署加補件高達202位那非原住民來連署我的高達170多位那不合格件數高達1500多位但是虛假的情勢是零"},{"start":14767.984,"end":14788.631,"text":"那台北市選委會他針對這麼大量的不合格他有沒有去發出查對單查詢單我的部分是零那我們不得而知他是怎麼做選擇做判斷但是至少我們可以看到台北市選委會他並沒有原住民鄉區"},{"start":14790.231,"end":14810.722,"text":"他的原住民落籍的人口數也不多但是為什麼兩個原住民立委的罷免的連署是由台北市選委會來負責那這個原因其實也沒有被交代過我也不得而知但是我要講的重點是"},{"start":14812.185,"end":14825.783,"text":"這個就是歸咎於沒有選區劃分原住民的立委他服務的是全國的選區每一個縣市都有原住民落籍"},{"start":14826.624,"end":14841.96,"text":"那這件事情其實很困擾那我曾經就這個選區劃分你應該很清楚我之前在內政委員會我質詢不下十次我常常就是問這一些原住民選制的問題"},{"start":14843.281,"end":14857.476,"text":"包括被罷免之後原住民是比照複數選區的議員要超過二分之一不得不選這個我過去上一屆也都質詢過很多次那我很關心就是選區劃分為什麼"},{"start":14860.058,"end":14880.456,"text":"這是全體我不敢講百分之一百但是至少百分之九十的原住民族人他們非常非常期待為什麼我們原住民的立委要服務那麼大我久久才被服務到一次我也不知道要去哪裡找立委我不能常常看到他"},{"start":14881.477,"end":14887.702,"text":"所以這個部分我很關心那我過去呢去年上一屆我問過中選會委員的五個提名人問他們對這件事情的看法我也問過您那我去年12月我問過內政部長劉世芳部長我問他說原住民的選區一定要全國嗎"},{"start":14905.235,"end":14921.587,"text":"選區劃分是誰的權責那部長當時說是中選會來定定我說我們的選務機關嗎劉部長很肯定的說是所以我想請教一下主委這個選區劃分到底行不行好簡單回答好嗎謝謝"},{"start":14930.704,"end":14944.335,"text":"報告委員那目前的選罷法並沒有針對這個原住民選區在劃分為單一選區有規範那這部分如果有共識的話是要透過修法來做處理修哪個法哪一條選罷法選罷法哪一條"},{"start":14948.667,"end":14975.758,"text":"選罷法第35條那另外在憲法的部分以往也有討論就是說憲法增修條文第4條有規定就是我們平地原住民跟山地原住民的立法委員各三人那憲法也沒有一個依據就是比照這個區域立法委員選舉是以單一選區方式來辦理那以前立委一直都是單一選區嗎"},{"start":14977.718,"end":14998.66,"text":"是在修憲之後所以為什麼原住民不行所以剛才跟委員報告就是說有涉及到憲法還有我們選法全體的族人我不敢講100%至少90%都非常樂見我們原住民的立委也要單一選區也要做選區劃分那為什麼我們"},{"start":14999.841,"end":15014.732,"text":"要像這樣子服務全國其實我要講這個的意思是說好我們來看我過去我也有質詢過很多次那關於這個部分或者是我們因為是比照複數"},{"start":15016.093,"end":15040.474,"text":"所以呢 過去要達到二分之一出缺才得以補選所以呢 我過去也有版本我要講的是說 我的版本也沒被排進來明天 有一個人的版本要進副二讀要做立法院長主持的協商那 這個地方 他是這麼修他直接在第七十條修 怎麼修呢就直接把原住民立法委員加進去"},{"start":15043.026,"end":15069.866,"text":"僅僅修補選只做半套因為他沒有去連動修罷免的部分選區劃分的部分那他會變成怎麼樣我想就算強行表決他未來也會面對很多問題像是我們複數選區第一個就是票票不等值嘛他在罷免的時候會遇到票票不等值嘛因為我們看這個圖選舉的時候是一人投一張票"},{"start":15071.187,"end":15074.568,"text":"可是罷免的時候我們一個人可以罷三個人因為這個多出來的兩張票就變成是多數罷零少數那遇到補選的時候一樣票票不等值因為我們是複數選區因為選舉的時候全部的選民投出三個人可是補選的時候全部的選民投一個人"},{"start":15096.417,"end":15113.229,"text":"所以這個部分如果沒有連動的去考慮那像我的版本我是說英設補選當選門檻超過被罷免人當初得票數確保補選者的民意基礎大於被罷免人至少他去解決民意基礎不同的問題那當然"},{"start":15115.39,"end":15130.587,"text":"在二月的時候 前中選會主委也是憲政學者陳英賢他有特別去提醒說選罷法的第75條第二款全國不分區不適用罷免的規定嘛但是被排除這個精神的像原住民立委"},{"start":15131.368,"end":15148.574,"text":"他其實是原住民選擇是介於區域跟不分區之間而他的全國性質是接近全國不分區所以呢他顯然是為了顧及原住民的特殊性必須別有安排才能保障原住民的權益但是現在"},{"start":15149.574,"end":15172.206,"text":"把這兩者罷免混為一談破壞了原來憲政設計的深思熟慮因此他建議於今之際或許只能寄望公民團體將六名原住民立委全部罷免然後全部一人一票重新選舉否則他認為這個滋生的疑慮未來要提請憲法法庭解釋以維護權益"},{"start":15174.967,"end":15190.736,"text":"那這樣好啦那議員的複數選區的罷免我就光講十幾個議員你罷掉一席雖然不能補選至少他有十幾十分之一但是你罷掉原住民一個不得補選是三分之一"},{"start":15191.556,"end":15217.421,"text":"他讲到底我要讲的是说就是选区划分的问题那我希望说这个部分我们希望中选会也好内政部也好一定要去针对这个部分将联动的复数选区的罢免选区的划分一并检讨为免造成未来宪政的不安定我举个例子好了这一次假设罢免成功"},{"start":15219.264,"end":15247.652,"text":"我們的修法只修只要出缺就得以補選那好啊未來每一屆當選的其中兩個立委就去罷掉另外一個立委我們就每一屆上演這個戲碼就好了所以我想這個部分作為選政機關也好選務機關也好不可以讓原住民的立委原住民族人的參政權"},{"start":15248.993,"end":15266.365,"text":"一直被大家漠視我很高興雖然我可能有機會被罷免但是我很高興至少求仁得仁心安理得至少這一次很積極的來處理這一件但是你不能做半套啊你選區花費也要處理啊"},{"start":15267.545,"end":15283.248,"text":"我覺得這個連動到的都要修都要把它處理好因為個人被罷免是小事啊制度是千秋原住民的權益是千秋中華民國的憲政體制是千秋主委可以嗎我們要積極啊那我也希望到我的辦公室來跟我做說明好不好這整個未來衍生的問題可以嗎"},{"start":15292.805,"end":15297.926,"text":"好謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝吳立華委員的諮詢下一個我們請沈柏洋委員諮詢謝謝主席有請主委謝謝李主委有請委員好"},{"start":15321.409,"end":15331.776,"text":"主委辛苦了今天一整天我看很多問題都是重複不是也是沒辦法的事情不是每個人都會去聽前面的人講了什麼我覺得剛剛吳委員的這一個其實我認為是蠻重要的"},{"start":15336.158,"end":15351.844,"text":"有時候我們常常經負惡毒的狀況之下很多東西會沒有配套措施所以這個部分我們當然還是會極力地再來去爭取那我今天想要問的比較偏向是這一個就是說我們現在罷免的這一個干擾的太陽其實非常多那我們有稍微整理了一下就是說這一個"},{"start":15354.666,"end":15375.022,"text":"先往後面就是說有一些行政上的干擾有場地的干涉然後也有一些立委的施壓甚至在質詢的時候施壓但我覺得跟中選會比較有關的應該是右上角因為其他的部分很多可能它是屬於這一個內政部的權責那這個選委不公比如說這個很短的時間要求要寄回查詢單或者說以後有可能會"},{"start":15375.522,"end":15398.055,"text":"推延的審查時間或者說不當的介入審查程序我覺得這幾件事情可能都需要有關注那這個部分我就想說也不用主委特別回答我只是想說反正他一樣就擺在那邊我們可能要特別注意那我今天比較想問的是兩個問題就好因為我只有五分鐘第一個就是這一次花蓮他們在這一個收的過程當中他們只有五個人在點"},{"start":15399.016,"end":15423.417,"text":"那這五個人在點 我看也不是他們自己的問題 因為他們其實應該可以找更多人有些人有壓力 有壓力不敢來點 那這樣也沒有辦法所以他只有五個人來點 那點的這個時間稍微比較長一點點了可能有超過十 十二個小時那他們在點的這個過程當中呢 我們就發現 因為我們的法條有一個選罷法八十條它規定說 未依規定格式提出者應不予受理"},{"start":15424.238,"end":15448.55,"text":"那這個時候就會有點疑惑比如說像我們之前花蓮不是格式有問題嗎跑掉了嘛所以當你格式出現問題的時候他當場可以說那這一張不可以或什麼等等之類的但有時候會有疑義比如說到底縮小放大啦或者說線的粗細啦那這種格式就這兩個字位一規定格式那個格式的解釋是當場他就要解釋然後當場做決定"},{"start":15450.171,"end":15471.323,"text":"還是說他要收下來之後然後開會討論因為我們現場問的時候他們就說他們要開會一下但問題是收的時間就那一天那如果說他當場又要開會那開會假如他那天已經點了12個小時他又要開會這個時間就拉得更長所以我在想說因為現在陸續都一直有在送件嘛中選會是不是有可能要給地方選委會一個比較統一的一個指導"},{"start":15473.919,"end":15501.562,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想這一次有關於不管是這個提案的連署或者是這個連署名冊的查對我們的標準是定則是夠周延的一共有三套三個辦法來提供給地方選委會來作為參考所以我說是一套標準一體適用這個是沒有問題的"},{"start":15502.743,"end":15521.792,"text":"當然在實務的運作上有時候有時候會發生就是當事人跟我們的選務工作人員大家意見相左的情況比如說包括這一次的這個花蓮當然花蓮跟台中這兩個地方都發生了一些這個認知的差距"},{"start":15522.532,"end":15533.184,"text":"但是經過溝通之後總是有一個辦法在那個地方作為一個標準經過溝通之後這兩個地方的問題都解決了我們認為這也是因為我們的這個辦法有夠周延"},{"start":15537.529,"end":15557.757,"text":"而且中央跟地方之間保持密切的一個聯繫中央可以做行政的指導所以這些問題應該到目前為止除了花蓮以及台中之外其他地方都相當的平順"},{"start":15558.497,"end":15580.815,"text":"對 因為我在想說就是這樣因為我們現在目前像這個要去看有沒有偽造啦居住期間的問題我看總共有十三十四個嘛 對不對這就是就是到時候會被剔除的這些聯署書啊這個實質的審查不可能在當場發生嘛當場只能看這個就是未依規定格式那未依規定格式目前來講我們當然就是其實我們辦公室也有發函給中選會幾次嘛 對不對然後就是說"},{"start":15581.515,"end":15595.72,"text":"這個格式到底要怎麼認定然後到時候可能讓他們這些團體他們可以用公文可以去說這可能是中學會相關的解釋只是說當時就是說像剛剛主委有提到當時可能就是雙方溝通然後可能這個領銜人在那邊他們也認為說確實啦這個格式有問題所以這一張可能不能用"},{"start":15599.981,"end":15626.623,"text":"但是因為領銜人的代表性就像剛剛嘉賓委員有提到的他是一個代表送件但是他到底有沒有被這個所有的人授權說他可以去同意或不同意這個格式的問題我覺得這有法律上的疑義啦所以這個當然我覺得在未來尤其是就是這一條未依規定格式那個格式的那個解釋如果能夠更清楚的話那就可以讓這樣的紛爭可能會變得更少我有這樣的建議那接下來因為有時間的關係我再快速問下一個就是"},{"start":15629.645,"end":15656.737,"text":"這個南投的這一件事情就是說因為南投他比較早他們是議員的罷免案他們很早就送了那我有看到就是說他們在第一階段的死亡連署是零就是完全沒有但是因為這一次因為基隆的這個事件讓我們看到就是說這個死亡的連署有可能是戶政人員在一開始或者民政的人員一開始幫忙剔除發生這樣的一個醜聞嘛所以我想問一下因為4月14號的時候南投議員被罷免的已經送件了"},{"start":15657.077,"end":15680.572,"text":"那離現在已經也查對的時間應該完成了那他們在第二階段的這個死亡的數字現在出來了嗎因為我前陣子發公文問好像南投這個的地方的委員會他們還沒有一個回沒有一個給我們數字上的回應是 這點請委員能夠諒解就是以前我們有關於委員所知的部分都會是在查對的結果經過中選會委員會認定"},{"start":15684.314,"end":15708.322,"text":"認定了之後我們就會隨著委員會紀錄公佈認定了之後雖然紀錄還沒有公佈但是只要是立法委員基於問政的需求來函要所知我們也都會配合目前還沒有因為地方選委會應該審查期間完了但是還在中選會認定的過程當中有一件已經是送過來了那我們就在等待"},{"start":15709.002,"end":15737.837,"text":"那最後一個就快速的就是公投這件事情因為公投現在已經被提了四個案件光是立法院這邊我剛剛有聽前面的質詢已經有人問就是你有回答到到底算不算重大政策的這個創制跟覆決啦這是中選會要去認定的啦那我只提醒一件事情就好就是說因為他們不管是反戒嚴還是反這個廢死這一個他們今天那個廢死跟戒嚴的狀態在台灣不存在嘛所以我有在想一件事情就是中選會有沒有機會如果說到最後這件事情真的發生的話如果今天再不能"},{"start":15738.277,"end":15761.287,"text":"按照法條審議這是一件事到底能不能審議這是一個爭執另外一個就是我們有沒有可能去提起確認之訴因為我認為說在這樣的一個狀況之下如果說狀態本身不存在那你要怎麼去提起這樣的一個公投這個因為時間的關係今天沒有辦法繼續詢問但我們之後可能會針對因為公投在禮拜五的時候就要來看起來他們就要闖關了那我覺得接下來中選會就會遇到這樣的事情"},{"start":15761.587,"end":15784.275,"text":"中選會一定會做成決定那至於司法的認定的問題中選會不是適格的原告了對 當然當然當然但是我認為說其實某種程度上面我們必須要有一個確認之訴不然的話這件事情其實會變得非常奇怪好 那就先這樣子 謝謝好 謝謝沈博洋委員下一位我們請洪孟楷委員質詢洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員不在下一位我們請陳冠廷委員質詢"},{"start":15795.184,"end":15796.714,"text":"我們請主委李主委有請"},{"start":15803.737,"end":15824.672,"text":"主委好 主委好 主委我想請教一個很實際的事情選戰期間假如有候選人把執政黨或在野黨的主席肖像合成到自己的競選廣告旗幟並且把它放置在各個看得到的公共場合上面讓民眾誤以為這個人是執政黨或在野黨支持的候選人這樣的做法你認為合不合法 有沒有誤導選民的疑慮"},{"start":15827.398,"end":15855.853,"text":"是否誤導選民在看個人他的感受這個我們就沒有辦法去做認定什麼叫個人的感受什麼叫沒有辦法去認定當一個單一選區的時候執政黨支持的候選人就只有一位他也只授權那一位的候選人在他的席次上出現那其他人使用的話就是混淆其他民眾這麼簡單的事情會有什麼好認定有什麼不是他個人的感覺這個效果有時候會正向的有時候會是反向的"},{"start":15855.953,"end":15880.078,"text":"有時候是正向有時候是反向中選會不是要指導它正向或反向中選會是要確保選舉能夠用公平的方式來進行中選會的存在就是要避免我們其他威權的國家用民主的手段顛覆民主你怎麼跟我說大家要怎麼認定我為什麼很重視這件事情因為包含在俄羅斯他們的執政黨多次利用這樣子的方式來去混淆民主陣營的在選票上面的這個表現"},{"start":15881.198,"end":15900.584,"text":"這在所有在極權國家裡面還有一點選舉制度想要去濫用想要去操作的話就用這種的方式我過去不斷的在提醒這件事情就是因為它已經在我們多次的選舉出現從縣市議員到立法委員的選舉而這一些選舉人的後面的背景包含跟統治黨等等都有關係我也具體 具名"},{"start":15901.604,"end":15915.402,"text":"把這些相關的資訊給中選會 給入委會結果要處理的竟然是入委會而不是中選會我們不是支持或反對哪一個候選人我們要確保的是這個制度能夠去公平的去做所以我們有提出這個第50條第52條公職連連選罷法第52條的這個修正草案裡面就是在針對這個部分嘛"},{"start":15919.767,"end":15946.713,"text":"那你剛剛提說這涉及政黨你們還有回文喔說這是涉及政黨會選人之間的自主事項肖像權可以用民法處理這是你們給我們的這個辦公室的回覆那我就回想到有在野黨的這些委員有說包含選罷法我們可以等到這個選舉完結束之後選罷法結束之後我們再用民法再去做我們再用相關的法案再去做選舉都結束之後還有辦法這樣做嗎"},{"start":15948.602,"end":15970.93,"text":"這樣的選舉還有什麼公平性可言所以我必須要回復之前中選會給我們的回函這個不是單純的肖像權的問題這不是個人的問題這個是選舉的公平公正的這個基本的這個架構中選會有責任要管可是在我們之前提出的修法法案你們跟我們說這樣子是這個是這個這個交給這個司法機構都選完了是要怎麼交給司法機構"},{"start":15972.981,"end":15990.186,"text":"所以我是希望說類似這樣子的法案我們之前有提出來就是說這個具體的這種不符合規制的文宣品它必須要連續罰你不是要把誰你不是要做這個刑法的處置而是要說在制度上面來防範這樣的做法"},{"start":15990.486,"end":16007.692,"text":"我們不是說因為他這樣子違反選辦法所以我們必須要給他這個人身自由給他限制不是這樣子的而是說包含罰金罰則包含第一時間發生這種錯假亂訊息的時候能夠有一個機制讓這些行政機關能夠把這樣子的危害降到最低"},{"start":16008.152,"end":16037.296,"text":"我們講的是制度我們講的是機制而不是法律上面說要怎麼樣去懲罰那一個人沒有那是交給刑事交給司法我們講的是說制度上面要怎麼樣去更改所以上一次的選包括在國會的選單一選區的時候我們就看到不只是在嘉義 雲林 高雄整個南部地區有大量的律師用這種混淆的方式不管是用執政黨的這個肖像來去營造說他是做執政黨支持的候選人來去做分化的這種做法混淆選民的做法"},{"start":16037.976,"end":16061.984,"text":"不斷的在存在著而且我們還沒有方法去改變我想請問主委有什麼建議這樣子有這樣的這種制度上面我們可以怎麼去做這種現象固然是不好但是它的不好的程度到底是到違反需要用刑事來處置行政的管理主委我剛才從頭到尾有講到用刑事上面嗎對"},{"start":16062.904,"end":16092.144,"text":"我從頭到尾都在講制度怎麼樣去避免所以我想說我現在在問說不是在這種形式上面而是說包含在罰則罰金上面怕我們不要我就說我們不需要做限制自由限制自由是最最極端的做法來做限制自由在選戰期間限制任何人的自由都會影響到選戰的公平性行政的管理那這樣我也講的是行政的管理對這個地方是那這個行政的管理照現有的選罷法也許根據跟這個中選會有關的部分就是它這個廣告物的設置"},{"start":16093.645,"end":16116.267,"text":"廣告物的設置是否有違反相關法令的規定有的話我們要去處理的即使地方的選務機關管不到也許是地方政府應該要管的這個責任大家要釐清至於委員最關心的這一點老實說我不敢正面的去回答你就是說他用一個"},{"start":16117.749,"end":16134.049,"text":"不應該是放在那邊的這個肖像讓選民造成錯誤 印象的錯亂影響到他的選舉的投票那這一點到底是要去如何的管制中選會能不能夠管到這一點"},{"start":16135.379,"end":16159.633,"text":"容我 容我沒關係 那麻煩就是做一些研究我們來避免這樣的說法日本很清楚的黨首的這個肖像在哪個黨員 在哪些支持者上面都有很嚴格的規定因為他要確保好不好 拜託一下就是要趕快因為馬上接下來我們台灣會面臨很多場的不同的選舉我們希望他的公平性不是給執政黨而已給自衛黨也都要有公平性這是我們希望做到的好不好 謝謝"},{"start":16162.377,"end":16190.08,"text":"好 謝謝陳冠廷委員現在我們請陳佩玉委員質詢陳佩玉委員 陳佩玉委員不在丁薛忠委員改書面最後我們請葉元之委員質詢葉元之委員 葉元之委員不在好 謝謝登記發言委員除不在場者外均已發言完畢 詢答結束王美惠委員 高金素美委員翁曉琳委員 丁薛忠委員所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢以及未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會本會議到此結束 現在散會"}]}},{"id":"16648","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16648","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528ebec65557fcf0aacbc45a0f691f44763914bfadd538e1bbbfc5de85413e61c0275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查「貨物稅條例」34案：\n(一)\t本院委員葉元之等21人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除部分條文草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員廖先翔等16人擬具「貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案」案。\n(三)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條、第十一條之一及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員邱若華等20人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員魯明哲等16人、委員顏寬恒等19人、委員羅廷瑋等16人、委員賴士葆等21人、委員邱鎮軍等22人、委員徐欣瑩等27人、委員翁曉玲等17人、委員羅明才等16人、委員郭國文等17人、委員王鴻薇等24人、委員廖偉翔等17人、委員許宇甄等21人、委員黃建賓等16人、委員林思銘等21人、委員萬美玲等16人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等15案。\n(六)\t本院委員李坤城等24人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一、第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人、委員林思銘等19人、委員涂權吉等17人、委員陳玉珍等19人、委員馬文君等18人、委員王世堅等19人、委員張智倫等25人、委員魯明哲等16人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員楊瓊瓔等20人、委員邱鎮軍等24人、委員萬美玲等18人、委員廖偉翔等17人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案」等13案。\n(八)\t本院委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條之三條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查「貨物稅條例」13案：\n(一)\t本院委員黃健豪等19人擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條及第十一條之一條文修正草案」案。【本案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n(二)\t本院委員鍾佳濱等18人、委員洪孟楷等16人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員楊瓊瓔等27人、委員柯志恩等16人、委員廖先翔等17人、委員李彥秀等17人、委員賴惠員等25人、委員王美惠等18人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」等9案。【後6案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n(三)\t本院委員羅明才等19人、委員許宇甄等22人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條之三條文修正草案」等2案。【本院委員許宇甄等22人提案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n(四)\t本院委員賴士葆等27人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條之五條文修正草案」案。【本案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】\n三、繼續審查人民請願案有關「貨物稅條例」7案。\n【5月7日及8日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-07","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-07T08:30:26+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-07T10:32:00+08:00","duration":7294,"影片長度":"02:01:34","委員發言時間":"08:30:26 - 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現在開始開會了 議事人員宣讀聲次以示錄 請"},{"start":3702.797,"end":3723.97,"text":"議法院第十一屆第三會期財政委員會第十次全體委員會議事錄時間中華民國一百二十四年四月三十日星期三九十至十三十七分地點群雄樓九樓大禮堂出席委員林德福委員等十四人列席委員黃國昌委員等十六人列席官員今晚會主委彭金榮近其相關人員司法院民事廳"},{"start":3725.151,"end":3742.647,"text":"法官毛彥成法務部法治司副司長謝志明主席賴昭吉委員會員報告事項宣讀商事會議事錄決定議事錄確定討論事項審查保險法15案1行政函請本院委員蔡其昌等19人委員羅廷偉等16人"},{"start":3743.468,"end":3764.716,"text":"委員王世堅 等18人 委員徐富奎 等16人 委員蔡其昌 等19人委員蔡奕宇 等18人 委員林思明 等18人 分明 女居保險法 部分條文修正草案 等8案2 委員鍾嘉斌 等19人 女居保險法 鎮定第123條及1條文草案案3 本院台灣民進黨黨團 委員陳昌明 等16人 委員羅志強 等19人 委員"},{"start":3765.556,"end":3784.213,"text":"李坤臣等23人委員賴瑞榮等16人委員王美惠等17人分別擬拒保險法增進第174條之二及第174條之三條文草案等落案金唐明任兩黨團代表洪珊珊委員羅志強說明提案要旨金管會主委彭金榮就行政院提案報告及回應"},{"start":3784.873,"end":3814.353,"text":"委員提案後藉由委員林德福等18人提出質詢經濟監管和控制委司法院保法官法務部卸副司長及相關人員予以答覆決議一說明及詢問完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一周內以書面答覆委員另要求期限則從期鎖定三委員徐新雲所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆四保險法十五案令則其繼續審查通過臨時提案一案宣讀完畢"},{"start":3815.653,"end":3824.476,"text":"好 報告委員會請問各位委員對於議事錄有異議沒有異議我們確認議事錄委員宣讀經過議程我們先介紹在場的委員跟政府關聯沒有問題我先介紹好了內會員召委吳秉立委員王世堅委員林詩敏委員"},{"start":3840.709,"end":3859.089,"text":"現在就請官員財政部的政務次長李清華法治處的姚昀處長 負稅署的宋秀琳署長經濟部何進昌政務次長 產業發展署的曾副署長"},{"start":3861.609,"end":3887.859,"text":"人員署節能發展及管理組的組長高淑芳環境部大氣環境師的孫中偉經營計政衛生福利部食品藥物管理署北區管理中心的主任鄭維智主任防護防護師的謝志敏副市長好我們就請宣讀今天的要處理的條例"},{"start":3889.2,"end":3912.22,"text":"繼續審查貨物稅條例三一四案一委員葉元之等二十一人擬拒貨物稅條例三除部分條文草案案二委員廖先祥等十六人擬拒貨物稅三除第八條條文草案案三台灣民眾黨團擬拒貨物稅條例第十一條第十一條之一第三十七條條文修正草案案四委員邱若驊等二十人擬拒貨物稅條例第十一條條修正草案案五委員魯明哲"},{"start":3912.68,"end":3933.121,"text":"等十六人 委員袁寬恆 等十九人 委員羅廷瑋 等十六人委員賴世保 等二十一人 委員邱振軍 等二十二人委員徐欣盈 等二十七人 委員翁曉林 等十七人委員羅明才 等十六人 委員郭國文 等十七人委員王宏威 等二十四人 委員廖偉祥 等十七人委員徐宇珍 等二十一人 委員黃建斌 等十六人委員明思明 等二十一人 委員萬美玲"},{"start":3934.062,"end":3951.304,"text":"等十六人分別擬據獲稅條例第十一條之一條文修正草案等十五案六委員林克成等二十四人擬據獲稅條例第十一條之一第十二條之五及第十二條之六條文修正草案案七委員鄭天才等十九人委員林思明等十九人委員圖全吉等十七人委員"},{"start":3952.064,"end":3977.792,"text":"陳玉珍等十九人委員馬文君等十八人委員王世堅等十九人委員張志倫等二十五人委員魯明哲等十六人委員王宏偉等十九人委員楊瓊英等二十人委員邱振軍等二十四人委員萬美玲等十八人委員廖偉祥等十七人分別擬拒獲物稅條例第十二條條文修正草案等十三案八委員邱振軍等十九人擬拒獲物稅條例第十二條之三條文修正草案二審查獲物稅條例十三案"},{"start":3979.062,"end":3997.445,"text":"一委員 黃建豪 等19人 擬具貨物稅條例第十一條及第十一條之一條文修正草案二委員 鍾嘉斌 等18人 委員 洪孟楷 等16人 委員 陳金輝 等16人 委員 楊瓊英 等27人 委員柯志恩 等16人 委員 廖仙翔 等17人 委員 李燕秀 等17人 委員 賴慧芸 等25人"},{"start":3998.286,"end":4021.257,"text":"委員王美惠等18人分別擬具貨物稅條例第11條之1條文修正草案等9案3委員羅秉才等19人委員徐宇甄等22人分別擬具貨物稅條例第12之3條條文修正草案等2案4委員賴世寶等27人擬具貨物稅條例第12條之5條文修正草案案3審查人民情案有關貨物稅條例7案宣讀完畢"},{"start":4023.763,"end":4044.589,"text":"好 要報告五位 我們剛進來的是黃珊珊委員本次會議安排繼續審查委員 議員自知21等人 自等21人 拟據風水條例刪除部分調查案委員廖先生等16人 拟據"},{"start":4046.147,"end":4069.543,"text":"貨物稅條例刪除第八條條文草案台灣民眾黨黨團凝聚貨物稅條例第十一條第十一條之一第三十七條條文修正草案案等三十四案二審查委員黃建豪等十九人凝聚貨物稅條例第十一條及第十一條之一修正"},{"start":4070.684,"end":4095.75,"text":"條文修正草案案委員鍾嘉斌等18人凝聚貨物稅條例第11條之一 條文修正草案案等13案繼續處理人民情人案7案委員葉願志等21人凝聚貨物稅條例刪除部分條文修正草案等3、4案已於第9次全體會議宣讀完畢現在請議事委員宣讀今日審查"},{"start":4099.651,"end":4119.532,"text":"有幾個這個新進來的法案黃建豪特使求人領據 化物稅條例第十一條及第十一條資金修正草案等事項案條例內容請議事人員宣讀大概八分鐘然後我們準備稍微協商"},{"start":4121.052,"end":4136.306,"text":"第十一條委員黃建豪等19人提案增訂第四項第一項第一款第三款及第四款之電冰箱能暖氣機及除濕機經經濟部核定能源效率分級為第一級或第二級者免徵貨物稅"},{"start":4138.448,"end":4158.862,"text":"第十一條之一,委員中嘉賓等十八人提案,第一項修正為,自中華民國一百十二年六月十五日起至一百十六年六月十四日子,購買經經濟部核定能源效率分級為第一級或第二級至新電冰箱、新能暖氣機或新除濕機,非供銷售者為退貨或換貨者。"},{"start":4160.444,"end":4168.014,"text":"該等貨物應增至貨物稅每台減增稅額以新台幣2500元為限並按電冰箱、暖暖氣機、除濕機減增貨物稅稅額表規定減增之"},{"start":4171.96,"end":4193.549,"text":"委員洪孟凱等16人提案第一項修正為自中華民國112年6月15日起至118年12月31日止購買經經濟部核低能源效率分級為第一級或第二級新電冰箱、新冷暖氣機或新除濕機非供銷售且未退貨或換貨者該等貨物應徵之貨物稅每台減徵稅額以新台幣2500為限"},{"start":4197.871,"end":4200.338,"text":"並按電冰箱、冷暖氣機、除濕機、檢證貨物稅、稅額表規定檢證之"},{"start":4205.253,"end":4229.808,"text":"委員陳金威等16人提案第一項修正為自中華民國112年6月15日起至118年12月31日子購買經經濟部核定能源效率分級為第一級或第二級之新電冰箱、新冷暖氣機或新除濕機非供銷售且未退貨或荒漠者該等貨物應增至貨物稅每台減增稅額以新台幣2000元為限並讓電冰箱、冷暖氣機、除濕機減增貨物稅稅額表規定減增之"},{"start":4235.788,"end":4260.877,"text":"委員楊秋英等二十七人提案第一項修正為自中華民國一百四年六月十五日起至一百十九年六月十四日子購買經經濟部核定能源效率分級為第一級或第二級新電冰箱、新冷暖氣機或新除濕機非供銷售且未退貨或荒獲者該等貨物應增至貨物稅每台減增稅額以新台幣兩千元為限並按電冰箱冷暖氣機除濕機減增貨物稅稅額表規定減增之"},{"start":4264.557,"end":4288.327,"text":"委員柯志恩等16人提案第一項修正為自中華民國112年6月15日起至118年6月14日子購買經經濟部核定能源效率分級為第一級或第二級之新電冰箱、新冷暖氣機或新除濕機非供銷售且未退貨或荒獲者該等貨物印證之貨物稅每台減徵稅額以新台幣2000為限並按電冰箱冷暖氣機除濕機減徵貨物稅稅額表規定減徵之"},{"start":4295.336,"end":4323.455,"text":"委員廖先祥等17人提案第一項修正為自中華民國114年6月15日起至119年6月14日購買經濟部合併能力效率分級為第一級或第二級是新電冰箱、新冷暖漆機或新除濕機非供銷售且未退貨或候候者該等貨物應增至貨物稅每台減增稅以新台幣3000元為限並按電冰箱、冷暖漆機、除濕機、減增貨物稅稅額表規定減增之"},{"start":4325.36,"end":4325.471,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":4330.731,"end":4351.919,"text":"委員李燕秀等17人提案第一項修正為自中華民國112年6月15日起至116年6月14日止購買經經濟部核定能源效率分級為第一級或第二級新電冰箱、新冷暖氣機或新除濕機非供銷售且未退貨或荒唬者該等貨物應徵之貨物稅以新台幣2000元為限"},{"start":4356.061,"end":4381.174,"text":"避難電冰箱、能暖氣機、除濕機、減增貨物稅稅額表規定減增之委員、賴會員等25人提案第一項修正為自中華民國114年6月15日起至116年12月31日止購買經經濟部核低能源效率分級為第一級或第二級新電冰箱、新能暖氣機或新除濕機非供銷售且未退貨或貨貨貨者"},{"start":4382.595,"end":4394.06,"text":"該等貨物應增至貨物稅每台減增稅以新台幣3000元為限避難電冰箱、冷暖氣機、除濕機減增貨物稅稅額表規定減增之增訂第四項為"},{"start":4395.663,"end":4412.172,"text":"第一項簡真年限屆期前半年行政院得示實際推展情況延長一次期限以兩年為限委員王美惠等18人提案第一項修正為自中華民國112年6月15日起至116年6月14日"},{"start":4417.086,"end":4440.338,"text":"購買經經濟部核定能力效率分級為第一級或第二級是新電冰箱型冷暖氣機或新除濕機非供銷售且未推貨或換貨者該等貨物應增至貨物稅每台減增稅額以新台幣2000元為限並按新電冰箱並按電冰箱冷暖氣機除濕機減增貨物稅稅額表規定減增之委員黃建豪等19人提案三處"},{"start":4444.346,"end":4473.265,"text":"第十二條之三委員羅明才等19人提案第二項修正為自中華民國106年1月28日起至119年12月31日止購買完全以電能為動力之電動車輛並完成登記者免徵該等車輛應徵之貨物稅但電動小客車免徵金額以完稅價格新台幣140萬元計算之稅為限超過部分不予免徵"},{"start":4474.606,"end":4485.954,"text":"委員徐宇甄的22人提案第二項修正為自中華民國106年1月28日起至124年12月31日止購買完全以電能為動力之電動車輛並完成登記者免徵該等車輛應徵出貨物稅但電動小客車免徵金額以完稅價格新台幣140萬元計算之稅額違憲超過部分不予免徵"},{"start":4503.308,"end":4524.036,"text":"第十二條 補援賴氏寶等二十七等提案第一項修正為自中華民國一百零五年一月八日起至一百十五年一月七日止報費或出口登記滿一年且出廠六年以上或自一百十年一月八日起至一百二十年一月七日止"},{"start":4525.397,"end":4541.751,"text":"報廢貨出口登記滿一年且出廠十年以上小客車、小貨車、小客貨兩用車於報廢貨出口前後六個月內購買上開車輛新車且完成新領牌照登記者該等新車應徵之貨稅每輛電額或減徵稅額以新台幣十萬元"},{"start":4547.216,"end":4567.057,"text":"減徵新台幣10萬元110年1月8日以後報費或出口登記一年且出廠6年以上之上開車輛如已於115年1月7日以前或係於報費或出口前6個月內購買上開車輛新車且完成心理牌照登記者"},{"start":4568.272,"end":4575.115,"text":"該等新車應徵貨物稅異同但應徵稅額未達新台幣10萬元者減徵稅額以應徵稅額為限第三項修正為自中華民國110年1月8日起至120年1月7日止報廢或出口出廠4個年以上"},{"start":4589.842,"end":4605.336,"text":"氣缸排氣量150立方公分以下機車以下僅稱中古機車於報費或出口前後6個月內購買新機車且完成新齡牌照登記者該新機車應徵出貨物稅每輛訂了減徵新台幣8000元但應徵稅額為達新台幣8000元者減徵稅額以應徵稅額為限宣讀完畢"},{"start":4618.278,"end":4644.787,"text":"好 請那個議事人員繼續宣讀有幾位民進黨的立委啊賴會員 吳秉瑞 郭國文 李昆春等他們提出一個修正動議請念委員 賴會員等四人所提貨物稅條例第十一條之一修正動議第十一條之一第一項 自中華民國一百十四年六月十五日起至一百十六年十二月三十一日子"},{"start":4646.766,"end":4662.579,"text":"其餘部分第一項與縣刑法相同增列第四項第一項減增年限屆期前半年行政院得釋實際推展情況延長一次並以兩年為限宣讀完畢"},{"start":4664.321,"end":4681.058,"text":"好 這個法案全部列完我們現在處理人民請願案有關厚稅條例七個案子這個已經放很久了今天不容易委員來我們一起把他先處理掉了請議事聯絡宣讀請願案七案案有及處理參考意見宣讀起"},{"start":4683.407,"end":4696.435,"text":"宣讀請願案7案請願人籍案有1台北市商業會未建請政府降低機車貨物稅請願文書案2台北市商業會未建請體恤名譽針對貨物稅條例第12.5條相關條文與廢紙或修正並增列會與參採請願文書案3中華民國全國商業總會未函轉會員"},{"start":4708.363,"end":4735.572,"text":"中華民國汽車商業同業工會全國聯合會提案有關貨物稅第十二之五條條文修正建議案懇請本院予以協助修法請願文書案四台北市進出口商業同業工會為建井重新檢討電器類貨品課徵貨物稅之必要性提出意見請參採會付請願文書案五台北市商業台北市進口商業同業工會為建井"},{"start":4736.652,"end":4760.364,"text":"舊攝影機停徵或減免貨物稅請用文書案六台北市進出口商業同業工會為建請免除攝錄影機課徵貨物稅請用文書案七台北市進出口商業同業工會為建議刪除貨物稅條例中飲料品平板玻璃電器三類產品貨物稅之請用文書案處理參考建議以上七案均為審查貨物稅條例時"},{"start":4762.665,"end":4788.739,"text":"以公委員參考,你不成為議案,並依立法院職權行使法第67條第二項規定處理,送程序委員會報請院會審查,並通知請願人宣讀完畢請問公委員對於剛才的這個念的,就是不成為議案,依立法院職權行使法第67條第二項規定處理,公委員要依"},{"start":4790.12,"end":4813.553,"text":"沒有異議我們就通過來 現在我們進行貨物稅條例部分條例修正草案等四十七案子協商那報告委員會現在就分兩大部分有時間性的是十一條之一十一條之一各位有沒有要再發言的有沒有因為我們已經討論很久了有沒有十一條之一還要發言的有沒有副總統說明一下來 請"},{"start":4819.471,"end":4839.671,"text":"就是有關節能家電的部分特別跟委員報告一下當時我們的目的是因為採先增後退的方式來鼓勵民眾引導民眾去購買節能家電那根據我們的評估就是從經濟部提供的資料來評估其實它對於節能的效果非常的好它可以省電大概15.1"},{"start":4840.632,"end":4842.433,"text":"所以合計最長可以到4.6個月"},{"start":4872.093,"end":4895.88,"text":"你的意思就是2.6年然後這確定的兩年行政授權就這樣子好這是行政院的版本但是還沒有送來立法院我們今天一定要處理因為這個時間賽跑了來我們再請黃珊珊委員法院下一位李燕秀再過來這個郭國麟再過來李坤臣"},{"start":4898.1,"end":4924.975,"text":"好謝謝主席我想我們台灣民眾黨的版本大家手上都有主要是延長年限之外其實我們還有另外一個內容是我們當然支持延長開放高耗能家電的時間但是我們的時間我們認為說直接延長到2030這也是我們相關簡簡單單的政策的年限就是2030到現在的話我們還有的一段時間也不會讓人民為了趕這個幾年"},{"start":4927.503,"end":4948.644,"text":"提早的汰換或大部分的人會希望能夠得到這個優惠而變成反而他的負擔增加我們希望他能夠逐步的汰換這第一點第二點是我們在這個十一之一條裡面其實他我們認為說已經有非常多的是不合時宜的相關的貨物稅那以前貨物稅是比較像奢侈品的"},{"start":4949.324,"end":4971.092,"text":"也是比較有錢的人來使用的但是事實上貨物稅已經到現在為止很多嚴格都已經沒有了第一個最重要的是像彩色電視機還有13%但是現在都是液晶顯示器根本就沒有貨物稅所以我們認為彩色電視機也不是高耗能的家電稅它其實不需要再課所謂的貨物稅另外下面大家看到還有錄影機"},{"start":4971.932,"end":4998.104,"text":"現在幾乎已經沒有錄音機這種東西了電唱機然後還有錄音機錄音機大部分都在3C產品裡面了那另外就是音響組合跟電烤箱這些都已經是家庭的必備的使用品而且它也不是屬於財政部或者是環境部認為的高耗能家電所以這些其實它課貨物稅而且它的金額非常的少我們認為說這些不合時宜的貨物稅都應該直接取消"},{"start":4998.624,"end":5015.435,"text":"所以不是只有單純的把時間延長更何況它時間延長只有這幾項有關什麼除濕機啊冷暖氣機這種耗能高的其他的部分它也沒有所謂的免貨物稅那這些貨物稅科的內容跟金額都不高我們認為說應該直接把它廢除謝謝"},{"start":5018.517,"end":5038.511,"text":"好 現在請李燕秀委員派好 謝謝昭偉我想對於十一條之一大家相對是有共識的延長家電的退貨稅兩年我覺得這是邁向2050年近年轉型的非常重要的一環但是也因為供應院的調查我們現在年輕族群特別是從18歲到24歲不論是在實時的減碳的行為上還是在參與的意願上其實都是明顯的低落"},{"start":5046.497,"end":5062.603,"text":"其實這就代表我們的政策誘因其實還不夠強我們宣傳是不是還不夠也不夠貼近現在年輕世代的生活情境所以在這個部分在十一條之一我的修法建議是把退稅措施再次延長兩年"},{"start":5064.103,"end":5077.999,"text":"這兩年的目的不是為了補助我們是希望透過政策引導民眾特別是我們年輕人可以願意主動參與節能減碳的意願同時我們希望藉著這樣的政策能夠促使業者未來"},{"start":5079.34,"end":5104.327,"text":"在設計或者是生產時更能夠符合國際上節能減碳包括更能重視能源的效率也助於我們整個產業結構的調整跟升級同時我們也考慮到納稅權力保護法的精神我們的租稅優惠應該有明確的期限為了避免未來大家批評我們常態化的補貼因此我的版本是建議再次延長兩年到116年的"},{"start":5107.388,"end":5123.789,"text":"6月14號達到政策目標後我們應該重新再檢討是不是應該退場或者是未來是必須要調整方向這樣也會比較符合我們財政紀律跟政策規劃的基本原則所以希望這個部分大家能夠支持以上 謝謝"},{"start":5124.892,"end":5128.295,"text":"我個人提出的版本也是到大約到這個2029年年底那剛好行政院版本他再延長一次也是到2029年"},{"start":5147.274,"end":5159.953,"text":"不過這個部分有幾個問題點財政部長剛剛提到的部分就有關於這個稅差損的部分這個5年多來好像有高達211億左右"},{"start":5163.118,"end":5184.35,"text":"然後另外一個部分這個稅差損的部分是用總金額計算有沒有去換算過那個申請數申請數的部分總額是申請數總共是1271萬台申請數之後的跟實際銷售出去的佔比大概多少也就是說他有的人要退稅他買的不一定會退"},{"start":5185.451,"end":5204.026,"text":"退稅我是想要了解它誘因到底多少高或不高就是這個占比的部分當然它也一定減能減碳的效果一年大概有五億度之多就站在消費方的部分的話也減少大概數以億之多的電費"},{"start":5205.727,"end":5225.518,"text":"所以從減碳有達到一定的效果那從產業發展的部分也有達到一定的效果那我之所以會談到這個占比的問題是說你們既然有一次要延長對不對是不是要檢討一下這個占比在延長的過程當中把這個減稅的金額適時提高的這個可能性這是我的疑問跟主張 以上好 現在要請李坤澄委員發言"},{"start":5232.265,"end":5238.729,"text":"謝謝主席那我自己有一條11條之一的那我是直接這個是延長到這個118年延長到118年我的這個基礎是說因為我們這一個"},{"start":5246.192,"end":5262.917,"text":"復康巴士這個當時候在修的時候也是延長到118年10月31號那如果按照這個院版的話你們是到這個116年然後在得試情況再延長一次兩年維新也是到118年那所以其實我是想說這也不用這個"},{"start":5264.257,"end":5291.011,"text":"這個常常修啦要不要就是說這個就避其功於矣啦就是這個既然都是最後都是到118年那是不是就是就是我們就是直接延長到118年啦那這個就是說既然你們有這個成效那對於這一個淨零排放也有這一個顯數的這個幫忙的話那我覺得就這樣子來做可能會我覺得會比較好啦不然你看接下來我們還有這一個"},{"start":5293.786,"end":5308.744,"text":"明年的還有這個1月7號有一個老舊大型車這也要到期了那所以到了年底我們還要再修一次那所以我等一下的提案有關這個第12條之五12條之六也是一樣以上說明"},{"start":5313.168,"end":5328.766,"text":"我們今天我跟那會員郭國文、李昆城提出這個修正動議他為什麼會去訂116年的12月31日子然後再來又用立法授權行政院可以延長一次兩年這是因為我們這一任的任期"},{"start":5329.787,"end":5344.384,"text":"是到2028年的1月31號也就是117年的1月31號那如果你一次把它定超過這個期間就是說等於是我們這一屆的立委把下一屆立委的那個權限都決定掉了啦"},{"start":5344.944,"end":5367.095,"text":"所以他這個是為什麼會這樣兩段立法就立到116年12月31號然後後面是用立法授權行政機關到時候評估他有需要的話他再延長兩年這樣下一屆立委要處理這個事情的時候才不會覺得說怎麼我們第11屆就把他第12屆的都決定掉了這個是以上這個提案我認為一個重要的點請大家參考 謝謝"},{"start":5369.161,"end":5396.849,"text":"因為我個人也有提案啦我的提案是說既然大家覺得效果這麼好那為什麼不forever呢就直接禁掉就好了而且我個人是反對給行政授權啦這個租稅法定主義啊拜託大家都才會這麼久的人租稅要明確化啦你要就兩年三年四年你說四點六年我都支持你五年我也支持"},{"start":5398.46,"end":5426.508,"text":"現在但是你來一個2.6加2這個我沒辦法支持我是講我的態度這個樣子所以今天這樣大家意見都講了現在不免有委員提到兩年以後就剛才吳委員提到的不要去簽署到下一屆的立委這個其實我們常常有時候法律定就定比如說整個法吹廢掉那就是影響到下一屆這個不必這個當然可以考慮但是也可以不考慮了另外行政版本是2.6加2個月"},{"start":5428.288,"end":5446.113,"text":"就是今天的民進黨團結會立委他們提出來的2.6加2年是行政院的授權那也有委員提到2030的所以我做一個結論可不可以因為大家爭議這麼大我們才會"},{"start":5449.075,"end":5472.078,"text":"這個習慣也不要絕啦 既能氣氛好一點啦就整個案子送出去把案子送出去 現在變成說有三大部分一個是兩年 一個是2.6加2那一個是Forever 一個到2030Forever就是整個就不要了 這個就永遠不住了一起送去協商 就這樣子 好不好"},{"start":5472.895,"end":5485.518,"text":"主席這樣子你很凸顯你個人的主張跟版本我適時的予以尊重你的看法但你不能把其他人全部都否決掉啊沒有否決就一併送出去了"},{"start":5486.937,"end":5508.066,"text":"一併送出去啦送出去你才會刑傷啦沒有貨物稅他把他的主張放在第三個裡頭啦我是覺得這一條就用這一條來處理啦如果針對貨物稅的主張改天我們可以再請討論我的主張是我的主張這一部分就永遠免了啊你不兩千塊就永遠補了"},{"start":5509.987,"end":5536.684,"text":"只有十一之一 只有十一之一只有十一之一啊 只有十一之一那十一之一他把它全部等於是廢掉十一之一就永遠補助啦永遠補助了啦我知道主席是說三四種意見都送政黨協商那問題是我說那財政部你們的看法你們要講一下市長你要講一下不是啦 他對你們大家這樣"},{"start":5539.102,"end":5542.364,"text":"我們從108年實施到今年的3月底為止大概有退稅的金額大約211億元然後有1271萬台"},{"start":5560.333,"end":5575.408,"text":"那這個部分因為我們退的貨所以是只要你是新購節能負荷節能家電效率一級跟二級的都可以退稅那但是那個因為所以那個都是新只要你新買的都可以用那但是他不用太久換新"},{"start":5576.409,"end":5596.386,"text":"那只有太舊換新是經紀部那邊的補助他才有要太舊換新所以剛剛講到說那太舊換新的比重是多少那等一下可能麻煩經紀部那邊說明一下就是說這幾年下來總共補助的數量有多少但是我們這個退稅的數量一定是大於太舊換新的數量因為只要新採購都可以適用"},{"start":5597.667,"end":5621.287,"text":"對然後另外就是剛才賴委員講到說是不是可以免稅的問題那這邊也跟個人報告就是說其實因為如果直接免稅其實是廠商受益因為是那個我們貨稅是產製廠商出廠的時候你如果免稅的話就是他那邊直接免徵貨物稅那但是我們節能家電它的效果是這樣它是為了要鼓勵就是綠色消費"},{"start":5621.988,"end":5643.849,"text":"然後鼓勵我們的民眾自己去太舊換新或者自己去新購那個節能效率比較高的產品那因為你如果是直接免稅給廠商的話廠商可能就是在定價上面他到底會不會回饋給消費者這個我們不確定那消費者可能也無感因為現在也不知道說這個貨物這樣子這個價錢到底他拿到的是不是有在貨稅的減稅上面他們施以"},{"start":5645.791,"end":5657.154,"text":"但是其實我們十一條基因爲我們十四以來民眾這麼歡迎也願意就是很積極的在自己採購的時候就覺得說我可以獲得減增貨物稅兩千塊錢我可以獲得這個退稅而且呢在搭配經濟部的這個經營太舊換新的補助三千它就有五千塊錢的回饋"},{"start":5666.697,"end":5685.492,"text":"而且這個回饋是直接回饋到消費者身上那消費者其實他會比較有感而且他會可以鼓勵他們說因為有這樣一個措施他們也願意去趕快把他們那些老舊的家電去太舊換新採購節能效率比較好的這些家電那所以才會這幾年它的成效真的實施得不錯"},{"start":5686.132,"end":5703.737,"text":"而且另外就是因為我們鼓勵那個綠色消費以後這些產製廠商其實他們也是獲益者為什麼呢因為他們的消費數量就增加了因為太舊換新鼓勵太舊換新以後新購的產品或者是淘汰老舊的產品其實廠商也是直接從這個地方得到這個消費的回饋產品的收益所以我們是覺得也許還是維持我們這樣一個措施對民眾來講他會比較直接有感而且真的可以鼓勵到消費者"},{"start":5713.96,"end":5714.34,"text":"那經濟部先回答一下"},{"start":5738.82,"end":5767.799,"text":"好 謝謝委員剛剛垂詢說這個就是退還減徵貨物稅的這個核對的比例那我們的統計從108年到這個最近五年大概核對的比例大概將近五成大概五成最高是2022年大概是五成五所以大概這個這樣的一個貸區換金的這個成效其實是非常非常有"},{"start":5769.823,"end":5773.815,"text":"這個有效的那所以我們是也支持這個財政部的這個立場"},{"start":5780.977,"end":5808.524,"text":"其實我想對於這個年限的問題我們剛才財政部已經表示說為了鼓勵綠色消費所以我們就是在延長這個年限但是我不解的是說為什麼要兩年二加六年又加二如果真的要鼓勵我們消費其實財政部應該評估說我們到二零三年一次就把它規定上去"},{"start":5809.364,"end":5838.11,"text":"就不用再造成好像法律一直要修改兩年後又要修改兩年後如果認為又要延長這個政策又要修改這個對於法律的安定性會讓民眾覺得說這很奇怪的一個政策修法一次就把它倒位嘛所以我剛才支持趙薇講的要就一次2030啊或者到2050啊達到節能簡單的目的一直鼓勵我們民眾就是來做綠色消費來購買這些節能的一些家電以上"},{"start":5841.971,"end":5858.037,"text":"謝謝主席剛剛恭臨的幾位委員都有提案那對於延長的年限法律條文的修改都有不同的主張不過剛剛聽了我們次長的發言讓我不禁想到五月端午節快到了那端午節大家最有印象的就是許仙跟白蛇"},{"start":5859.99,"end":5883.994,"text":"那白蛇比較惹人厭 因為牠放毒嘛許仙呢 是醫生救命啊 大家都喜歡這個目前貨物稅這個條款呢 就是白蛇先放毒啊然後呢 每兩年呢 許仙出來放一次藥消費者就有感就是說消費者拿到許仙的藥說 哇 太好了現在我們市場就有感了嘛 對不對那所以是不是白蛇每固定兩年就要放一次毒啊"},{"start":5885.237,"end":5894.932,"text":"這個法律條文的安定性剛剛林委員講到了啦但是我這裡並不是說這樣的守法我是開玩笑的說白蛇放毒,許仙解毒這個法律的效果就是如此"},{"start":5895.714,"end":5911.519,"text":"因為耗能家電因為節能的技術日新月異那所謂的太舊換新每一次我們什麼急速的節能我們才給予這樣的補助這是在推動整個家電廠商隨著科技進步與時俱進不斷地減輕它耗電的耗能"},{"start":5915.26,"end":5933.492,"text":"那因此把這樣的條款定成這樣的形式就是說每隔兩年我們就檢討市面上的廠商是不是有推出更節能的家電如果有我們就修法延長讓他可以來適用這個減免的優惠所以其實這個立法例是很特別的就這個白蛇跟許仙條款"},{"start":5934.554,"end":5962.214,"text":"那到底它效益如何剛剛經濟部有提到但是我覺得我是支持財政部的做法但是呢要說得更明白到底每一次延長後整個國家的一個電氣耗能家電的汰換狀況效益如何經濟部可以再提出更明確的效益評估那麼我們才能來提到說包括剛剛有委員提到每兩年一次修法的安定性這樣的修法的成本值不值得那如果是值得我也會支持"},{"start":5965.096,"end":5986.809,"text":"這我個人是反對的 我覺得不需要你用就兩年 我支持 四年我也支持 六年我也支持 十年我也支持這個哪一個有行政授權 給你兩年的行政授權我反對行政授權這麼大 我反對這個你要兩年 可以 四年可以 五年我都可以"},{"start":5988.227,"end":6015.648,"text":"你要幾年我都可以你要幾年我都可以但是你來一個2.6加2這個哪裡有這樣立法的沒有你這樣立法的啦你看幾個還授權授這麼大的權利兩年後你實施了以後你還決定你要這樣子你追了五年那就五年啊你五年我也支持你你五年我也可以支持我就講白了我的案子我不堅持你要五年我就做確定"},{"start":6016.368,"end":6017.029,"text":"主席我報告齁我報告一下"},{"start":6033.702,"end":6054.119,"text":"這個是立法授權啦在法律裡面立法授權有很多的前例啦不是這裡獨有的啦那當然你認為說這個立法授權你不接受但是行政院的版本是這樣嘛那我們提出的修正版本是這樣那我要跟你強調這是一個立法授權那以前也有很多這樣的案例那能不能介紹一回事如果"},{"start":6055.509,"end":6083.528,"text":"我個人是這樣看法因為他這個要達到一定的政策目的要逼這個廠商越來越節能減碳所以產品要一代一代的疊替如果你這個地方把它永久的都停掉那這個以後廠商就不用去考慮這部分了他在這方面要達到他的政策性目的就會比較減少所以我建議這樣子我們的修正版本還有別人的版本的話幾年加幾年或是一次就幾年這一種一起"},{"start":6084.724,"end":6108.079,"text":"就像你剛剛講的 既然今天如果沒有辦法有共識的話那就保留送協商嘛好啊 我們就這樣什麼 因為十一條之一喔好 可以 你們就表達 我們就留紀錄喔 這樣好了你就不要再發言了好不好處理完還有要處理其他嗎沒有沒有 就這樣可不可以有一個讓我發表一下對其他條件我們處理完你再發表好不好"},{"start":6109.087,"end":6133.277,"text":"因為我們十一條之一其他有的條文是放其他的條文一起所以有關於十一條 十一條之一 十二條之五十二條之六 甚至七條這個都放在裡面你沒辦法比如說我的提案裡面有十二條之五跟十一條之一放在一起我沒辦法把它分開沒辦法分割的這個就一起並不協商"},{"start":6135.198,"end":6161.991,"text":"就這些全部保留好不好我再講一遍11條11條之112條之512條之637條因為它是混在裡面的你沒辦法抽出來抽出來它就它案子就等於切掉了不可以所以這個整個自己的案子全部這個送保留送優惠協商就這樣子好不好我們今天早上就處理這裡這樣來 那個周委好 謝謝喔"},{"start":6172.589,"end":6191.938,"text":"其實因為主席剛剛您的宣告就是我剛剛所知道的就是一開始今天只討論11條之一但是因為電氣類的更新節能的減增的優惠散見在包括11條還有您說的11條之五跟12條之六"},{"start":6194.09,"end":6215.76,"text":"那沒有包括12條嗎沒有包括12條那12條之五是汽機車的一個那個電動車的部分嗎好那這裡呢我謝謝主席給我這個機會因為我今天呢是另外有一個條文那個也可不可以請我們財政部這邊是不是已經了解了好"},{"start":6221.034,"end":6237.465,"text":"我特別希望財政部能夠仔細聽因為這裡我們今天的原來要處理的貨物稅的版本當中有第八條這個廖委員的還有葉委員提出的也包含了第八條那第八條他講的是飲料品飲料品只要是設廠機制的"},{"start":6240.373,"end":6269.088,"text":"清涼飲料品都屬汁它的稅率分成是西式果汁8%其他飲品15%那如果是純天然的就是免稅那這當中有委員主張剛剛講那兩位委員都是把它刪除直接把飲料的飲品刪除那這當中其實在上次的貨物稅的詢答當中本席也是認為飲品的貨物稅完全沒有道理"},{"start":6270.236,"end":6282.186,"text":"完全沒有道理但是我們查回過去的貨物稅從汽車有外部效應就是外部的成本"},{"start":6283.546,"end":6307.24,"text":"汽車輪胎也會造成道路磨損的空氣污染電器會損耗的能源然後呢還有平板玻璃跟水泥其實這兩個都有高度的排碳那如果說因為有造成社會的外部成本願意用貨物稅的方式以所謂的特種消費稅的方式讓消費者去承擔這個財政上 稅務上是可以理解的那但是呢 獨獨這個飲料"},{"start":6309.807,"end":6333.183,"text":"它到底它的飲料品它的外部成本是什麼我完全看不到在這七項的貨物稅當中有任何的說明七項當中其他的六項有四項是提到有社會成本外部成本兩項當時沒有提只是說為了財政收入方便水泥跟平板玻璃但是飲品直接表明了就是財政上的需求"},{"start":6334.003,"end":6351.695,"text":"這一點對於日常使用飲品的消費者要刻意特種消費稅這是不合理的但是幾次跟財政部的一個磋商之後有一個想法如果是飲品當中有添加糖這的確有整體社會的健康風險"},{"start":6352.896,"end":6381.41,"text":"所以呢本席的修正動議如果今天來不及討論那麼我會再用一個正式修法提案的方式來提出就是將添加糖的飲料才可以獲物稅在這裡呢要請我覺得好像我們這個財政部好像對本席的提案都不很重視啊沒有你會再處理好不好因為今天我們主席處理我沒有說今天因為主席也宣布了今天不會處理其他條件但是本席第18條以修正動議的方式提出本來就是以為說"},{"start":6382.791,"end":6406.729,"text":"這個條文在今天會處理所以我才用修正的同意那這個修正的提出呢也希望財政部回去認真的思考你們這七項貨物稅財政部認真思考了齁認真思考貨物稅把飲品喔為什麼有兩位委員主張全部刪除因為這完全不符合你特種消費稅啊特種消費稅你的目的你沒有辦法一個正當性的說明好 以上"},{"start":6410.917,"end":6428.965,"text":"等一下好不好我跟各位報告為什麼我宣布這樣這主秘告訴我的因為民眾黨它是獲得11條之一是跟11條跟37條是綁在一起的你沒辦法切割的所以要保留就三個都要組局"},{"start":6430.385,"end":6453.277,"text":"這是一個 再過來我們剛剛唸的11條 11條之1 12條 13條 17條就講完了然後12條之5 12條之5是李坤城委員11條之1 12條之5 12條之6這是綁在一起 所以要一起出去是李坤城委員的提案 所以我沒辦法把它切割掉"},{"start":6453.917,"end":6470.435,"text":"然後再過來因為我只有單獨一個12條之五其實假如沒有李坤誠的我不放棄沒有關係但是因為李坤誠的是綁在一起的所以要出去我就要一起出去你不能說你出去我不出去啊這沒啥利好對不對這個也不可不可無奇怪啊這個"},{"start":6472.257,"end":6488.305,"text":"我沒有幫你啦因為我們要處理十一條之一一定要出去嘛所以跟十一條之一如果相關的提案他是沒有辦法切割的他要出去所以我剛念的第十一十一條之一三十七條這是民眾黨的"},{"start":6490.107,"end":6512.641,"text":"11條之一加12條之五加12條之六這是李坤城委員的12條之五翁蕾是賴思邦委員的這個都不能夠切割要一起出去才不會後此不彼還有黃靖豪他還是第11條跟第11條之一所以這個都要在一起這樣出去我剛剛念的是這樣子的好不好邏輯這樣 阿傑主席"},{"start":6519.349,"end":6532.377,"text":"關於飲料的部分我導師建議說財政部不要撈過界了要就一次廢掉怎麼含糖不含糖你是財政部你不是衛福部那講那個"},{"start":6535.94,"end":6563.594,"text":"說含糖飲料益生肥胖及心血管疾病這還是貴部財政部過去部長蘇建榮部長他自己說的拜託不要撈過界不要撈過界而且那個也矛盾啊你說含糖的會肥胖會心血管疾病好啦可是你手搖飲你又不增貨物稅啦你說手搖飲啊因為裡面要有固體物齁"},{"start":6565.216,"end":6572.285,"text":"那些固體物吃了那也是那個珍珠奶茶那個更容易胖"},{"start":6574.07,"end":6594.436,"text":"那到底財政部在管什麼呢那財政部你是不是還要另外再立一個科一個師來研究這些飲料啊對我們人民身體健康的影響然後你再去做決定嗎類似這樣的稅莫名其妙的稅好多啦好多我們等一下會談到機車的時候再談好不好我是認為要就全部"},{"start":6598.998,"end":6617.244,"text":"不要說以黨不黨的做標準因為財政部不是衛福部其實清稅減政是大家長期想的目標財政部其實只要把一些大方向想好"},{"start":6618.224,"end":6636.087,"text":"國家稅收都源源不絕就像去年稅收超徵5280億可是現在我們在想這錢收了那麼多你要怎麼使用應該用在需要的人身上我想我們在協商的時候就1萬塊當然還是繼續要再努力爭取"},{"start":6637.108,"end":6643.613,"text":"就是不要浪費因為70%以上的人民大家都希望說稅收超車那麼多要還稅於民所以我還是講這個問題另外提醒財政部現在美國關稅的問題那麼嚴重你應該要多多來跟委員來溝通一下"},{"start":6655.763,"end":6670.755,"text":"有什麼應該我們要去面對的怎麼樣來照顧中小企業我最近聽說很多的出口廠商工具機叫苦連天台幣又升值啪啪啪十幾趴難道就不會再升了嗎我看"},{"start":6671.656,"end":6697.689,"text":"基於美國的壓力之下我們山與玉來豐滿樓未來接受的挑戰會更大所以拜託不要在飲料上面有糖無糖那種枝微末節一直討論我希望能不能多討論一些 找個時間大的方向真的 百工百業先面對未來的挑戰 叫苦連天拜託 好不好"},{"start":6699.246,"end":6712.256,"text":"好 這個等一下題目 其他題目我們另外再討論好不好先做一個決定 今天就是請各位委員是不是可以同意我們提案條文裡面的第11條11條之1 12條之5 12條之6 37條送出財政委員會"},{"start":6720.242,"end":6746.424,"text":"然後送到院會保留協商就這樣子好不好各位如果同意我們就通過那其他的各位要對其他的法案我們今天就不處理因為其他的法案啦這個大家差異蠻大的已經討論過一次了幾乎都沒有共識了那我們就留在財政部財政委員會我們另折集再來審那有沒有其他委員或是官員要發言的有沒有"},{"start":6751.035,"end":6761.322,"text":"好 沒有的話我們就今天就我們宣布 請最少留三個人下來 留我三個人民進黨國民黨各一個留下來好不好"},{"start":6797.366,"end":6813.449,"text":"通知署一種 因為他來 可能要二三十分鐘你講的那個有沒那個案子 都看不出來有一個當民調理員 人家人家很美好幹什麼"},{"start":6834.466,"end":6835.247,"text":"因為我等一下要訪問"},{"start":6849.637,"end":6865.524,"text":"向委員會報告我們協商已經完成厚稅條例部分條文修正草案47案的協商那麼協商完成請議事人員宣讀協商結論"},{"start":6867.762,"end":6888.12,"text":"宣讀貨幣稅條例協商結論第十一條 第十一條之一 第十二條之五 第十二條之六 第三十七條各黨團及所有委員的提案均保留送院會協商第八條 第十二條 第十二條之一及不是"},{"start":6890.325,"end":6910.015,"text":"第八條 第十二條 第十二條之一 第十二條之三所有委員的提案都則期在審 宣讀完畢好 謝謝就是簡單來講我再強調一遍除了剛才念的那幾條法案幾條法案十一 十一條之一"},{"start":6911.969,"end":6938.618,"text":"十二條之五 十二條之六 三十七條這幾個案子送出去 財政委員會送出去 財政委員會到運輸會交付 運輸會協商那麼協商之前會本席先協商一次再協商不成我們再交這個運輸行業團來主持協商因為這個有實效性 有實效性所以今天一定要出去的"},{"start":6942.83,"end":6963.122,"text":"好 那麼其他的案子呢 就留在參議會 我們折戟再審其他案子 那麼現在呢 這個各位委員對於協商結論有異議沒有異議呢 我們就 就是兩部分了一部分就送去協商 一部分就是留在參政委員會"},{"start":6964.622,"end":6991.769,"text":"那麼本例會議作成以下決議人民取緣案7案均不稱為議案依立法院職權刑事法第67條第二項規定處理送由程序委員會報請院會審查並通知請願人請問各位委員對以上決議有異議沒有異議我們就通過那麼第三個要宣布的是"},{"start":6997.452,"end":7010.541,"text":"有台灣民眾黨擬具的貨物稅條例第十一條十一條之一及三十七條條例修正草案委員黃仲豪黃建豪等十九人"},{"start":7012.267,"end":7034.636,"text":"拟据活务税条例第十一条及第十一条之一之修正草案委员鲁明哲等十六人 颜宽仁等十九人委员罗廷伟等十六人委员耐斯堡等二十一人委员邱正军等二十二人委员徐庆伟等二十七人委员欧晓琳等十七人委员罗明采等十六人"},{"start":7035.296,"end":7058.331,"text":"委員郭國文等17人委員王宏威等24人委員廖偉祥等17人委員許新宜許宇珍21人委員黃建平等16人委員林思銘等21人委員萬美玲等16人委員鍾嘉斌等18人委員洪門凱等16人委員陳慶威等16人委員"},{"start":7061.053,"end":7073.071,"text":"楊瓊英等27人委員柯志文等16人委員廖軒翔等17人委員李元秀等17人委員賴慧媛等25人委員王美惠等18人"},{"start":7076.195,"end":7094.024,"text":"分別凝聚活物稅條例第十一條之一修正條文修正草案等二十四案委員李坤誠等二十四人凝聚活物稅條例第十一條之一第十二條之五及第十二條之六之修正草案"},{"start":7095.359,"end":7111.676,"text":"委員賴世保等二十七人擬拒貨物稅條例第十二條之五修正草案案賴慧芸委員等五人之修正動議案報告委員會以上都審查完畢了"},{"start":7113.349,"end":7123.751,"text":"並按擬據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前須交由黨團協商院會討論的時候有本席補充說明請問各位對於以上決議有異議沒有異議我們就通過那麼報告委員會有關於貨物稅條例不分條文修正草案"},{"start":7137.472,"end":7164.475,"text":"等十九案委員岳燕姿等二十一人擬拒活物稅刪除不穩條文修正草案案委員廖先生等十六人擬拒活物稅條例刪除第八條條文修正草案案委員邱樂華等二十人擬拒活物稅第十一條條文修正草案案委員鄭天才說要看了"},{"start":7167.16,"end":7186.175,"text":"委員林世民等15人委員涂謙吉等17人委員陳玉珍等19人委員馬文金等18人委員王世堅等19人委員張志倫等25人委員魯雲哲等16人委員翁威等19人"},{"start":7187.176,"end":7214.241,"text":"委員楊瓊英等二十人委員邱政軍等二十四人委員萬美玲等十八人委員廖偉翔等十七人分別凝聚活務稅條例第十二條條文修正草案委員邱政軍等十九人委員羅明才等十九人委員徐玉珍等二十二人分別凝聚活務稅條例第十二條之三條文修正草案"},{"start":7216.195,"end":7241.316,"text":"令哲琪繼續審查留在蔡委會令哲琪繼續審查請問各位委員對以上決議有異議沒有異議我們通過要報告委員會委員會審到此休息我們明天再見還有我們有關於這個預算法整列第81條之一的條文修正草案"},{"start":7242.699,"end":7258.884,"text":"草野協商我們預定在下午一點鐘各位請各位能夠來參加就有關於稅如果達到什麼程度要發現金各位來參加我先協商協商不成再交給另外一位好 謝謝"},{"start":7275.635,"end":7278.518,"text":"謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16651","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16651","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2dbec65557fcf0aacb53399f7931ebeeba14bfadd538e1bbbfd10cbe23be5d6df65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請僑務委員會委員長、經濟部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委員報告「美國對等關稅政策對僑台商全球布局之挑戰，及我政府協助僑台商之具體策略與措施」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-07","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-07T08:31:28+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-07T11:25:00+08:00","duration":10412,"影片長度":"02:53:32","委員發言時間":"08:31:28 - 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陳國仙"},{"start":2138.717,"end":2159.18,"text":"研管局投资服务组副组长吴淑芬国家发展委员会副主任委员高先桂经济发展处副组长陈美菊"},{"start":2161.912,"end":2182.591,"text":"行政院國家發展基金管理會副執行秘書施明山本日會議邀請僑務委員會委員長及經濟部次長國家發展委員會副主委來作為報告"},{"start":2187.576,"end":2206.821,"text":"針對美國對等關稅政策對喬台商全球佈局之挑戰及我政府協助喬台商之具體策略與措施並被質詢首先先請喬務委員會委員長我們習委員長上來報告"},{"start":2218.568,"end":2247.353,"text":"黃昭偉在座各位委員各位先進大家早安今天緊究美國對等關稅政策對橋台商全球布局之挑戰以及我政府協助橋台商之具體策略及措施進行專案報告報告分為一前言第二橋台商在對等關稅下面臨的挑戰三橋委會對於橋台商的具體策略與協助措施以及第四結與四個段落敬請不吝指教"},{"start":2248.854,"end":2259.993,"text":"首先海外橋台商遍佈全球主要是以移民定居在海外的台商企業人士為主幹"},{"start":2262.094,"end":2286.597,"text":"長年橋台商定居在橋居國深耕當地的市場具有在地人脈及通路的優勢而各地橋台商組織與綿密的網絡更是協助台灣深化與當地國合作交流行銷台灣佈局全球的最佳夥伴展望當前的世界局勢地緣政治的衝突未歇各國的貿易爭端再起"},{"start":2287.56,"end":2306.969,"text":"日前美国总统提出的对等关税政策对多国进口商品加征关税为全球经济带来前所未有的挑战本会会持续的透过台湾的优势搭建海内外合作平台来串联海外侨台商与国内产官学员的共同发展来汇聚侨台商的力量"},{"start":2308.393,"end":2330.169,"text":"目前已經具有一定成效但是因應全球的趨勢變化及發展會配合政府的經貿政策持續來強化相關的聯繫服務與時俱進的提供相關的政策方案協助橋台商因應各種的挑戰首先在對等關稅的衝擊下全球橋台商面臨的挑戰有以下幾點分別就第一"},{"start":2331.03,"end":2352.632,"text":"全球供應鏈從量變變質變過去規模化生產成本最小化的導向面對新的關稅壁壘低成本走向高彈性的供應鏈來臨企業需要建構更加彈性生產的網絡調整全球的佈局供應鏈的重組也將會形成新一波橋台商移民的現象"},{"start":2353.817,"end":2366.596,"text":"第二產業過度集中在單一市場的經營風險日益增加透過區域整合多邊參與來降低單一市場的風險已成為當務之急政府除了積極加入亞太"},{"start":2369.366,"end":2394.754,"text":"印太經濟戰略CPTPP等相關的國際區域組織之外也深化與新南向及其他新興的市場國家來連結並與美日歐等國家合作開拓多元的市場來分散風險第三產業的轉型刻不容緩關稅改變全球貿易的模式產業需要捨棄低價競爭的思維提高技術發展差異化的優勢"},{"start":2396.074,"end":2419.292,"text":"淨零及數位雙軸轉型已經成為全球發展的趨勢政府也將持續協助產業因應趨勢降低衝擊橋委會也會在此針對台灣的軟硬實力來整合提供橋台商協助至於在具體的策略及措施的項目上有以下幾點跟各位委員報告"},{"start":2420.779,"end":2448.8,"text":"一 海外橋台商是我國國力的延伸橋委會除了扮演整合的平台連結海外橋台商對內也會整合中央部會地方政府民間工協會大專院校技術研發機構及產業資源來協助橋台商的事業發展同時匯聚橋台商的力量來壯大台灣促進海內灣共同拓展新的全球市場創造互惠雙贏的局面"},{"start":2450.021,"end":2466.871,"text":"為加強服務的精準度並因應美國對等關稅政策帶來的挑戰本會近期也將責成所有駐外人員以及運用全球的商會網絡辦理座談會及問卷調查廣泛收集各國"},{"start":2468.383,"end":2480.974,"text":"橋台商在橋距地之不同產業類別對美出口佔比及受關稅影響的程度作為政府後續研擬協助措施及政策依據之相關的參考接下來將針對海外橋台商的聯繫服務上面的具體策略說明如下第一"},{"start":2495.632,"end":2520.865,"text":"壯大商會的體系、擴大組織的動能海外台商會是以服務橋台商及團結橋界的重要組織隨著全球供應鏈的重組台積電日前已前往美國、日本、德國設廠台商在新南向國家也建立了新的產業聚落各地陸續成立新的商會以近期來說本會有協府成立、立陶宛、義大利、阿拉伯大公國"},{"start":2521.585,"end":2541.663,"text":"進度柏柳等地成立商會協服商會更加健全發展同時也扮演中介的橋樑協助橋台商解決問題培養商會的幹部人才透過以上的努力來維持橋台商的聯繫服務的平台同時擴增相關的觸角第二在於運用輕商的優勢來提升台灣與當地國的連結"},{"start":2545.393,"end":2567.622,"text":"青商具有在地化、國際化以及全球化的優勢為加強培養青商本會積極協輔成立青商會支持青商會的會務發展並辦理全球青商潛力之星的選拔與輔導每兩年舉行一次邀請海外青商回台參訪等多元資源來擴大青年的參與深化與國內產經學界合作連結"},{"start":2571.744,"end":2588.973,"text":"更與他們在僑居國的當地能夠發揮更大的影響力三 鏈結僑台商與台灣優勢的對接合作的發展台灣的產官學研能量豐沛為引建台灣的科研能量協服海外僑台商轉型升級同時協助國內開發開拓國際市場本會與國內的14所研發機構及39所大專院校陸續合作推動僑台商的服務方案"},{"start":2601.559,"end":2628.126,"text":"迄今已促成世界級、洲際級及各國台商會與國內簽署多項合作備忘錄並展開交流合作例如去年北美洲台灣商會聯合總會與中華電信簽署MOU北美旅館工會導入資策會或國內的AI業者的科技運用與旅館管理等等都是助攻台商數位轉型的一個具體的案例四"},{"start":2630.41,"end":2644.682,"text":"精進橋台商的體質經營擴大海外的商機交流近年本會配合六大核心戰略產業及五大信賴產業等政策辦理了數位轉型"},{"start":2646.044,"end":2671.682,"text":"智慧安控、創新產業等各項主題的培訓、研習活動及邀訪安排海外的橋台商反台觀摩交流並進行各項商機媒合會邀請國內廠商與橋台商洽談注意橋台商掌握商情並了解國內產業發展建構海外及國內合作平台"},{"start":2674.158,"end":2691.665,"text":"五、運用台灣的優勢來建構行銷網絡本會歷年來會結合商會、僑團的資源辦理經貿專題講座以及美食巡迴展充分展現台灣的軟實力及拓展外交、觀光、文化等等提升台灣年進度"},{"start":2693.206,"end":2711.623,"text":"從今年的規劃路線在18國49個地區都會帶動當地的橋台商進行相關的行銷策略來促進海內外與國內的觀光產業對接合作也增加海外的相關產業到台灣深度參訪的機會"},{"start":2715.745,"end":2733.498,"text":"第六,輔助橋台商發展自由品牌行銷台商的製造本會與經濟部、外貿協會、駐外管處及台商會共同合作從110年起就辦理海外台商精品獎的選拔輔導活動,迄今共選拔出42件精品"},{"start":2734.478,"end":2756.676,"text":"獲獎的企業會由海外信保基金、國際的知名會計師事務所提供相關的輔導協助並享有冒險品牌輔導的資源以及相關的創新推介的諮詢深化台商與台灣產業人才技術服務的鏈結也幫助台灣能夠更加的打入各國的國際市場"},{"start":2758.629,"end":2784.975,"text":"第七 在前瞻全球市場協助企業永續經營方面 營運國際的淨零碳排排放的趨勢本會也在國內開辦了包括淨零排放 循環經濟 ESG 等研習班聘請專家也赴海外辦理相關講座 輔導包括新南向 越南 泰國等成立碳中和科技聯盟協會"},{"start":2786.175,"end":2795.678,"text":"除此之外112年調查新南向重點五國的台商面臨淨雲轉型的需求去年113年更協服越南台商辦理溫室氣體的盤查本年將會進一步推動淨零碳排概念的強化計畫來透過種子培訓營輔導在地南向的台商能夠升級轉型永續發展第八"},{"start":2812.721,"end":2826.725,"text":"將進一步協助橋台商的資金融通擴展事業的規模本會輔導海外信保基金成為橋台商的融資後援目前在全球有25國51個地區共有200家的銀行金融機構承辦並且可以運用國內的31家OBU來辦理相關的融資"},{"start":2837.025,"end":2857.453,"text":"的相關作業因應美國關稅通緝本會會請基金研議透過融資保證加強來協助受影響的橋台商同時也將持續輔導基金提升營運績效來協助橋台商取得資金擴大事業規模及影響力拓展全球的佈局與投資"},{"start":2858.806,"end":2863.148,"text":"最後的結語面對當前的關稅挑戰下僑委會將會持續的結合相關的資源來深化全球僑台商的聯繫服務促進海內外優勢對接多元的佈局共創新的全球市場讓台灣與僑台商的事業都能夠因應國際經貿趨勢的變動迅速應變調整以提升產業的競爭力與韌性"},{"start":2883.497,"end":2893.481,"text":"共創立足台灣,佈局全球,加強美國行銷世界,這樣永續的繁榮願景。以上報告,請各位委員不吝指教及支持。感謝大家。接著請經濟部賴次長進行報告。"},{"start":2916.96,"end":2945.257,"text":"主席 諸位委員 大家好美國對等關稅政策對台商全球佈局帶來衝擊跟挑戰經濟部將配合廠商多元佈局的這個需求協助台商進行因應調整敬請各位委員不吝指教以上是報告內容首先針對於美國對等關稅政策對台商之衝挑戰與經濟部具體協助的措施"},{"start":2946.735,"end":2964.663,"text":"美國川普總統上任之後採行對等關稅的政策不但衝擊了台商既有的佈局關稅政策的不確定性也為台商未來的佈局規劃帶來巨大的挑戰經濟部在對等關稅宣布的第一個時間立即透過"},{"start":2965.953,"end":2979.732,"text":"我驻外的经济组关怀了解重点国家台商针对于对等关税的影响情形及应处的做法并收集厂商的各项的需求与建议"},{"start":2980.984,"end":3003.882,"text":"多數台商優先與客戶商討如何進行成本分攤並持續關注當地政府因應方式與關稅最後實施情形,據評估實質影響針對未來佈局策略,台商將更加謹慎做出投資決策與因應調整"},{"start":3006.064,"end":3013.684,"text":"但確定的是將持續地以分散風險建立韌性供應鏈的角度與客戶商討"},{"start":3015.168,"end":3037.835,"text":"供應鏈產能佈局的策略進行多點多區域的佈局經濟部配合廠商因應對等關稅的政策所延伸的多點多區域的佈局及減緩對等關稅衝擊的需求提供以下的協助與措施首先是提供對等關稅的正確及時資訊"},{"start":3040.375,"end":3053.839,"text":"針對眾多已在海外投資佈局的台商最關心能在當地取得對等關稅的正確及時資訊經濟部透過我遍布海外各國駐地經濟組密切關注當地國受對等關稅影響之發展"},{"start":3059.84,"end":3077.793,"text":"並持續收集當地政府最新的政策措施以提供企業的支持、協助方案內容等資訊並透過各台商會組織之溝通平台利用各項活動持續跟台商提供正確及時的資訊第二"},{"start":3080.902,"end":3090.894,"text":"提供海外布局多元資訊與交流平台經濟部提供多元資訊跟交流平台提供廠商運用"},{"start":3092.25,"end":3117.155,"text":"其中包括會編每年定期更新的全球89國投資環境的簡介新南向重點國家投資稅務法規問答集新南向適合台商進駐的工業區重點國家產業聚落地圖等投資評估參考資料令經濟部每年辦理不同國家的投資說明會"},{"start":3119.564,"end":3146.17,"text":"選定國家籌組投資考察團廠商可以透過參加相關的活動與當地國招商投資建立聯繫溝通的管道除此之外經濟部在越南、泰國、菲律賓印尼、印度、馬來西亞等六國設立了台灣投資窗口聘用熟悉當地投資環境及語言、中文"},{"start":3147.355,"end":3173.915,"text":"之专人担任窗口提供厂商投资资讯跟引介服务第三是境外关内政策针对锁定前往日本跟欧洲投资的台商则可运用经济部的境外关内政策资源针对于台湾的优势产业透过以大带小的方式协助产业供应链之中小企业海外群聚布局"},{"start":3175.4,"end":3189.137,"text":"經濟部從去年12月到今年的4月分別在捷克跟日本設立了台灣貿易投資中心,未來也規劃在美國設立提供台商一站式的投資服務。"},{"start":3191.055,"end":3204.537,"text":"第四是對美諮詢服務,針對有意佈局美國市場之台商經濟部透過線上的表單及服務專線的方式提供廠商對美諮詢服務,包括對等關稅。"},{"start":3206.627,"end":3224.272,"text":"與對美投資相關問題廠商可以下取第五是減緩關稅衝擊的支持方案針對於受對等關稅影響的海內外台商也關心政府是否有支持方案協助廠商渡過難關經濟部以從寬從延從速的原則推動因應"},{"start":3229.264,"end":3253.647,"text":"美國關稅我國出口供應鏈支持方案針對金融支持提升產業競爭力及開拓多元市場等三大面向提供四項措施其中包括外銷貸款優惠保證加碼中小微企業多元發展貸款加碼研發轉型補助及爭取海外訂單"},{"start":3255.472,"end":3281.772,"text":"投入經費460億元另對於在台有設立公司的廠商可以透過經濟部免付費的諮詢專線或是政府設立的網頁專區查詢另外針對於在台沒有設立公司的台商經濟部也會透過對外駐外的經濟組持續的收集相關的資訊提供台商參考"},{"start":3283.649,"end":3302.479,"text":"最後跟大家說明對等關稅的措施目前雖然是暫緩實施但是我們將持續關注後續的情勢發展同步關懷台商受影響的情形及海外佈局的相關需求經濟部在國內已經設立了免費諮詢專線及網頁專區提供業者諮詢了解"},{"start":3308.522,"end":3330.422,"text":"另在海外透过各国经济组持续收集当地国回应的方式与可能协助的措施及时转供台商参考利用提供海内外台商不间断的服务与协助以上报告敬请各位委员指正视教敬祝各位委员身体健康诸事顺利"},{"start":3335.854,"end":3338.949,"text":"接著請國家發展委員會高副主委報告"},{"start":3349.966,"end":3366.4,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 大家好國發會櫃委員會所提的議題進行報告首先說明美國的關稅新政美國川普總統上任後為重塑美國的製造業 縮減貿易逆差就根據1977年的國際緊急經濟權利法"},{"start":3371.804,"end":3394.165,"text":"在4月9號對台灣課徵了32%的關稅但他隨即宣布出中國外其他國家對等關稅暫緩實施90天那目前正在跟各國進行關稅的諮商同時他也援引貿易擴張法232條款面對特定的產品課徵關稅那目前台灣跟其他國家一樣在與"},{"start":3396.287,"end":3406.799,"text":"鋼還有汽車零組件也課25%的關稅至於台灣出口的對大中的半導體它4月14號宣布要進行國安調查那調查完畢以後將據以對該產品課徵進口的關稅"},{"start":3410.743,"end":3438.465,"text":"那其實說明台灣對外投資的現況美國的關稅新政改變了世界的經貿局勢是將導致全球供應業的再次移轉事實上從川普第一任任期以來台商受到美中貿易關稅的影響其實已經陸續移展生產基地加速自中國撤出回台投資以外呢也將生產基地移到新南向國家美洲還有歐洲那目前我們對中國的投資金額2024年"},{"start":3440.306,"end":3453.554,"text":"已經降到36.54億美元在我們總投資的7點對外投資的7.52%比那美國呢其實2024年他的投資金額我們對他的投資金額已經增加到141點"},{"start":3456.035,"end":3479.082,"text":"26億美元已經成為台灣最大的投資國至於我們對於新南向還有歐盟國家的投資金額在2018年以後也大幅的擴增那為了面對這個美國關稅新政的挑戰呢行政院除了在4月24號編列了4100億的特別預算然後其中呢我國出口供應的支持方案930"},{"start":3481.242,"end":3498.118,"text":"以外其實賴總統也揭示為了協助國內企業跟僑商掌握全球第二次工業移轉的商機他揭示了立足台灣佈局全球加強美國以及行銷全世界的經濟發展策略"},{"start":3499.479,"end":3520.837,"text":"就立足台灣來說政府將擴大投資台灣三大方案我們擴大的適用對象擴及全球的海外台商外人投資企業同時也聚焦在五大信賴服務業大健康產業同時我們也研議新增銀行的貸款額度提高融資的優惠措施"},{"start":3521.638,"end":3541.487,"text":"在佈局全球方面我們將推動區域的多元佈局那經濟部已經規劃在重要目標市場成立台灣貿易投資中心還有海外專案的服務小組將協助台商快速的落地以擴展多元的市場第三我們就是要加強美國"},{"start":3543.488,"end":3564.404,"text":"加強對美國的投資,籌組台灣投資美國隊。未來,台美將繼續在人員、半導體、AI、資通訊、量子、無人機、機器等關鍵領域強化合作,同時也將協助企業評估美國各州的投資環境供應鏈移轉的方案,透過以大帶小的方式協助台灣供應鏈在美國佈局。"},{"start":3568.32,"end":3590.554,"text":"第四是行銷全國,我們要將協助台商爭取海外的訂單經濟部等相關部會已經提出了台灣SLAB的共同品牌持續也會透過國際專業展會設置的方式推銷台灣的精品同時與加強對國外通路商的合作"},{"start":3591.824,"end":3617.803,"text":"最後其實在美國新政升高全球貿易破碎化的風險裡面將牽動全球供應鏈重整行政部門將持續關注美國相關政策的演變制定有效的因應策略並結合駐外單位的相關資源來協助橋台商調整供應鏈並穩固台灣在全球供應鏈的關鍵地位以上報告進行指教"},{"start":3623.703,"end":3644.524,"text":"我們補充介紹我們羅美玲委員還有陳靜瑜委員那請確認議事錄請問一下在場的委員對於上次的會議議事錄有無疑惑錯誤或需要更正之處沒有好議事錄確定"},{"start":3648.925,"end":3669.993,"text":"现在开始询答本会委员6加2分钟非本会委员5分钟10点30分发言登记决止如有临时提案请以10点30分前提出11点左右处理那请问这个现在请罗美玲委员上台咨询"},{"start":3680.003,"end":3681.284,"text":"謝謝主席 有請經濟部賴次長委員好"},{"start":3692.746,"end":3703.66,"text":"次長好次長根據這個外媒的報導美國政府預計會在美東時間5月7號也就是今天要公佈這個半導體關稅的這個細節那過去川普一直認為說台灣竊取了"},{"start":3711.489,"end":3740.428,"text":"这个美国的这个半导体所以他说对台湾征收百分之百半导体的这个关税呢是合理的那当然外媒也认为说如果确定实施的话呢对整体的这个科技产业的发展会带来毁灭性的这个后果那刚刚我也看到那个国防会有提到就是说美国商务部呢会依据这个贸易扩张法第232条呢分别针对一些产业来做这个"},{"start":3741.889,"end":3764.965,"text":"那我昨天本席也看到卓主席卓院長他也有提出就是說這個半導體的談判也會依據貿易擴張法第232條來做談判所以這就是讓我們所擔心的就是美國像川普他一直認為就是說台灣竊取了這個美國的半導體所以變成就是說我們半導體的這個出口關稅這高額關稅是"},{"start":3769.569,"end":3795.27,"text":"難以避免對不對他已經提出要課百分之百如果說談判下來的話所以次長您認為呢我們是難以避免這個無法避免這個高關稅半導體的部分首先跟委員報告我國半導體產業它不論是在產業競爭力或是在研發製造包括關鍵的製程的部分它立足於台灣當然未來我們也希望說"},{"start":3796.601,"end":3824.403,"text":"美國對等關稅的影響對於相關的這個業者除了半保體業者之外還有EMS的這個業者的影響衝擊影響降到最低所以剛剛在跟委員報告的我們採取了三項的措施不光是行政的支持金融的支持多元的脫銷那至於說你剛剛所詢問的這個部分我們這個美國政府部門他有接受公眾評論的意見那政府也把相關公眾的評論的意見"},{"start":3826.124,"end":3847.357,"text":"送交美國商務部那對於過去一段時間以來那我們經濟部跟廠商多次的這個座談的這個意見廠商 個別的廠商也發表了他的意見說他們也會透過他們的公司來提送相關的意見送交美國政府做參考"},{"start":3848.729,"end":3872.275,"text":"是因為美國自己商務部其實他也有針對這個半導體的這個徵收這個高額度的這個關稅其實他們也有提出一些徵詢那現在就是說問題就是說他們只收到十份的這個意見書所以在美國商務部的解讀就是說其實沒有很多反對的意見基本上大家好像還蠻支持這個半導體要課這個高額的這個關稅所以這個部分的話"},{"start":3878.536,"end":3901.535,"text":"好像跟那國內當然有國內的意見可是美國本身商務部就收到只有十份跟過去像過去的話他們也會針對類似的這個高額關稅的這個提出這個爭取可是相對跟過去比較的話這一次只有十份意見書所以我們怎麼看這個部分呢"},{"start":3902.566,"end":3917.649,"text":"第一個這個委員現在所畫面中所提出來的這個資料是媒體的報導那事實上沒有確實嗎美國的政府確實在多方的收集的意見剛剛公委員說明了除了政府"},{"start":3918.47,"end":3930.139,"text":"提出政府部門的這個意見提供美國商務部參考之外廠商也會提供他的意見那至於說對於未來的這個美國公布了之後的這個狀況廠商他會去利用說"},{"start":3935.925,"end":3960.664,"text":"盡量減少他的成本的方式然後甚至接近客戶端的這個方式第一個盡量減少成本所以我們這一次再提出了這個特別條例行政院通過的草案裡面特別是對於穩定民生減少廠商的生產的成本的這個部分特別予以列入那除此之外的話對於他若是有受到一個衝擊"},{"start":3963.146,"end":3984.399,"text":"我們也針對於說大廠的部分坦白講大廠它的因應調適的能力是比較好的我們關切的是它所連動的下游的供應鏈所以對於中小企業還有包括供應鏈的轉型的部分這也是我們特別注意的所以這次我們在研發的轉型的部分特別的加碼"},{"start":3986.412,"end":4014.482,"text":"因為時間的關係我們都知道半導體是我國的經濟命脈像美國的關稅政策或最近我們台幣升值超過10%這對我們的出口來講其實造成了很大的壓力所以我想政府應該需要戰戰兢兢針對這所有可能發生的狀況我們都要有一個推出一些比較可以應處的一些政策來降低整個系統性的風險"},{"start":4015.382,"end":4020.419,"text":"OK好 那次長請回喔那再來我要邀請的是我們僑委會許委員長"},{"start":4029.432,"end":4040.879,"text":"委員長早安 妳的手好了沒謝謝關心真的非常的辛苦 因為我們的業務費被砍的關係所以我知道委員長現在出國跟喬介這邊聯繫其實都自己一個人 只剩一個人 出國沒有辦法帶這個隨行的"},{"start":4053.186,"end":4064.4,"text":"這個人員所以前兩天我有發現委員長的手呢腫起來了而且呢還弄了這個護腕所以非常的這個辛苦所以我希望說在野黨能夠理性來看待這部分因為這個跟僑界還有跟這個全世界僑胞的這個交流對台灣來講是非常重要的"},{"start":4071.568,"end":4072.91,"text":"那再來還有就是說前天很謝謝我們僑委會邀請我參加了2025年畢業僑生的委員長獎的頒獎典禮這對畢業僑生來講這是一個非常大的肯定"},{"start":4090.329,"end":4100.351,"text":"那再來我也發現當天呢有很多獲獎的這個學生呢僑生大部分都是馬來西亞的這個僑生讓我覺得非常的這個光榮那可是呢我們如果回去看這個數據的話馬來西亞的僑生過去一直以來都是台灣很重要的這個僑生的這個聲援的來源可是我們可以發現說最近這幾年來馬來西亞的僑生的人數呢卻一直在下降"},{"start":4119.795,"end":4123.298,"text":"那當然我們面臨的是鄰國也許還有中國的這個搶這個僑生的這個原因那再來還有馬來西亞學制的這個改變比如說他們三年制的這個學制呢也讓很多這個僑生也許就留在馬來西亞就學了"},{"start":4136.55,"end":4159.599,"text":"那面臨這樣子我們馬來西亞的僑生一直在減少這部分的話我們到底有沒有什麼對策因為像過去馬來西亞的這個招生我們大部分都以這個六十級所的華文獨立中學的畢業生為主要的招生的對象那可是我們知道其實有很多華裔子弟都是在當地一般的中學來就讀那像這個部分的我們有沒有加強去做招生請問委員長"},{"start":4161.708,"end":4182.186,"text":"謝謝羅委員關心 那個我們的畢業生頒獎典禮也都邀了我們所有外委會的委員那謝謝您那天特別有出席我們在馬來西亞的部分呢有經過長期七八年的觀察意識到包括馬來西亞的六十所獨中他們在招生上面也都源而不足因為馬來西亞的華裔人口已經從八年前的25%下降為22%所以他們自己的這個"},{"start":4186.91,"end":4191.492,"text":"獨立中學也開始招收馬來裔以及印度裔的學生所以馬來西亞等於華裔人口是一直在下降的學生人數當然也是下降加上他當地的這個國際型大學設立越來越多所以因為這樣子的一個變數呢我想這個是客觀局勢的一個轉變並非是我們的這個方案不足以吸引他們"},{"start":4211.258,"end":4239.524,"text":"那所以近年來確實在僑生人數的變動上過去都是馬來西亞是第一名那今年到目前為止馬來西亞已經退到第三名了第一名變成是越南第二名是印尼那第三名是馬來西亞但我們還有另外一個驚喜是日本居然衝到第四名了那所以有增有減的過程當中呢事實上馬來西亞是有微幅下降但是下降的趨勢還沒有非常的劇烈聯州的部分好像下降的比較多"},{"start":4239.824,"end":4243.367,"text":"連招的部分有微幅下降微幅而已因為我們的產息班這種比較是專案型的絕大多數的學生比較沒有太大的興趣但是我們去年前年都有擴大往東馬沙巴這個區域因為東馬沙巴基本上它還是沒有什麼大學"},{"start":4261.664,"end":4269.81,"text":"他或是選擇來台灣或是選擇去馬來西亞西馬來就學所以我們現在是東華東馬的部分我們會加強招生因為這邊的學生人數確實有一定的可以在鼓勵的地方但是東馬的整體人口呢也是不過在300萬到400萬之間在整個馬來西亞的人口並不是非常非常的多數不過這一區塊呢是有相當的學生有興趣"},{"start":4292.124,"end":4309.591,"text":"來參加一些專班這樣子像產息班的這些學生的數額所以我們想未來可能會有增加這一部分的聲援會往上走那不只是馬來西亞的學生聲援我們也會持續拓展其他國家當然越南印尼因為他人口紅利很多那我們比較驚喜的是"},{"start":4310.431,"end":4326.997,"text":"日本近年來來台灣升學的這個人數快速的在增加從2022年不到千人到2023破千到去年一口氣三千多人所以這樣子的一個持續變化也是我們在國際社會裡面跟我們的經濟發展結構有非常大的一個關聯性所以後來後面我們也會持續的跟勞動部經濟部等相關單位來密切的這個聯繫了解各國的這個僑身的"},{"start":4339.881,"end":4344.542,"text":"發展動向那也盡可能把他們留下來那當天我們這些優秀的僑生呢在領獎的時候我都已經跟他們做過問卷了口頭馬上問卷十個裡面呢有八個會留在台灣兩個會回去那留下來的呢兩位會留下來大概繼續念研究所其餘的六位呢就進入就業市場那我想這樣子一個初步初略的這個優秀學生願意做出這麼多留台的這個"},{"start":4367.369,"end":4391.875,"text":"承諾 我相信這表示台灣還是有相當的吸引力是 因為我有看到就是說其他國家就如委員長所提的人數有增加 可是馬來西亞喬生呢這是在下降 對 在下降所以我覺得這個部分對我我自己來自於馬來西亞所以我覺得這部分應該還有努力的空間那當然因為時間的關係我想後面還有很多細節找機會再跟委員長這邊來做討論好 以上謝謝謝謝 謝謝羅委員"},{"start":4396.373,"end":4416.542,"text":"謝謝羅美玲上台質詢 接下來由我們陳俊宜上台質詢好 謝謝主席 我們先請我們許家青委員長"},{"start":4422.143,"end":4448.734,"text":"委員長早委員長早安對於這個對等關稅的因應措施我想來就教我們委員長那因為這個海外的橋台商遍佈全球那橋委會一直以來都是扮演著這個整合的平台的角色來推動我們海外橋台商和國內這個公司部門聯繫的相關工作那針對近期因應這個對等關稅的政策橋委會是否已經搭建"},{"start":4450.675,"end":4470.086,"text":"這個資訊傳遞的平台能夠及時來收集我們橋台商的意見並提供給我們行政院及相關部會來做參考那也可以將我們國內相關的政策是不是也同步提供反饋給我們相關的橋界能夠知道目前國內的情形有沒有"},{"start":4470.586,"end":4486.397,"text":"有跟委員報告就是在今年的4月2號當美國公布了這個對等關稅的相關這個措施之後呢我們在第一階段4月中旬就已經針對各國的台商會會長先進行了第一次的這個問卷的這個了解請他們先針對說可能受影響的情形來提供一些資訊提示也詢問他們說他們覺得怎麼樣的一個這個"},{"start":4499.907,"end":4518.439,"text":"服務跟協助方向是對於他們有利的這部分也請他們分別有提供一些相關的資訊所以這個第一步的這個調查已經進行那接下來我們在五月我們也要進行第二階段的調查就是我們會跟所有的台商會包括五月份馬上歐洲台商總會要開會六月亞洲台商總會要開會"},{"start":4521.861,"end":4525.462,"text":"還有這個北美洲台灣商會要開會還有大洋洲剛好這幾個洲際總會通通要開會所以他們會有非常多的會員以及理監事會都會參加這個大會那我們會藉由這個大會的時間呢就來進行各種座談會以及包括問卷調查所以現在這個都已經密齊的在進行中"},{"start":4542.386,"end":4559.355,"text":"好 也請我們僑委會要把握機會啦就是剛剛委員長講的這個時間點如果能夠掌握的話也可以相互來把這個資訊傳達是 我們也覺得很重要因為我們海外的僑台商跟國內台商不一樣的地方是說"},{"start":4560.396,"end":4584.074,"text":"國內的台商是以國內的資金以在本地製造或者在第三國製造然後來輸出到市場端那我們的這些海外橋台商基本上他們是已經早年就移居他國那他們的資金呢都是他們在第三國的這個資金來進行投資但是由於近年來的全球供應鏈的這個變化他們事實上也有很多人除了他在"},{"start":4587.897,"end":4599.641,"text":"僑居國的這個事業以外呢他在第三國也都有新的投資或者貿易採購等等這樣的一個變化所以受到美國對等關稅的影響跟衝擊確實是相當的大所以這部分我們也會進一步來分門別類分別就製造業或服務業或者相關不同的這個產業來瞭解他們關稅衝擊的影響"},{"start":4612.185,"end":4627.524,"text":"好那各國對於這個關稅的危機也陸續推出這個因應的措施及紓困的政策那包括我們國家也提出編列特別的這個條例要來強化我們產業的韌性那橋台商"},{"start":4628.244,"end":4656.7,"text":"耕耘各地的市場都能適用當地政府的紓困政策但可能礙於語言方面的隔閡或是資訊的不流通無法即時取得正確的資訊我想就叫我們委員長是否能夠和我們經濟部來協助會診即時的更新各國的紓困的相關措施並統一官方的資訊給僑界以減少我們資訊的一個落差的情形"},{"start":4657.284,"end":4660.086,"text":"謝謝陳委員的提醒我們確實目前在25個國家有這個51個合作的金融機構那所以他也可以運用國內31個這個OBU的這個叫做國際貸款的這個業務部門來進行貸款所以語言的障礙應當不會有問題那麼重點是我們因應這一次的對等關稅如果我們比較中小型的海外橋台商"},{"start":4686.627,"end":4688.968,"text":"因為這樣子的變化需要有資金的融資我們也會規劃特殊的專案讓這些橋台商可以在短期內獲得立即性的協助那如果說需要比較長期性的投資要擴大這個投資的金額的話"},{"start":4704.734,"end":4713.036,"text":"因為我們海外信保基金的陸上限在東南亞的南向國家是250萬美金那其餘的地方是200萬美金我們也會跟國內的金融機構來討論如果他們過去的信用貸款的績效良好事實上他們都可以貸更多並沒有這方面的問題所以國內31個OBU的組織金融機構是可以提供他們更多的資金貸款的"},{"start":4734.922,"end":4746.879,"text":"就這個信保基金的部分,我們是不是可以比照COVID-19時期啟動對於就有貸款能夠展延的措施,來舒緩企業在資金周轉上的一個壓力?"},{"start":4748.135,"end":4751.717,"text":"確實我們現在有在因應不過因為現在是90天的寬限期我們也是在等待相關的這個對美談判的進一步結果出來我們比較好針對那個具體的結論來制定這個因應的貸款措施不過"},{"start":4767.546,"end":4781.734,"text":"初步的方案我們有在規劃中只是還沒有做定案那目前我想對於橋台商如果要移轉投資基地或者是他要對採購的對象有所轉變確實他的資金的調度是會需求會變得比較高所以這一部分我們會盡可能來提供相關的方便或展言展言的部分避免在這個雨天收傘這個我們也會立即的來協助"},{"start":4793.041,"end":4816.314,"text":"那另外是否也可以啟動一個小額貸款的申請小額貸款一直都有,這個沒有問題我們沒有金額上限那這部分再請我們僑委會持續關心好的,謝謝陳委員接下來我再請我們國發會的高副主委及經濟部的賴次長"},{"start":4824.641,"end":4843.891,"text":"市長我們副主委早市委好那我先就叫我們這個國發會就這個關稅的還是就這個關稅的問題因為目前我們還在談判當中那因應這次關稅政策所帶來的供應鏈重組的趨勢"},{"start":4844.932,"end":4859.526,"text":"那國發會我們之前游主委曾經表示過,有部分的台商有可能會在這個時間點回到台灣來生產那我想請教我們副主委,預期有哪些產業有可能會回流到台灣?"},{"start":4861.106,"end":4884.077,"text":"我想我們台灣的那個半導體的供應鏈其實是非常的完整所以我們大概是我們會預期說ICT半導體的相關產業還有現在因為我們在推動五大信賴產業那我們政府也有相關的一些支持的措施所以我們認為說五大信賴產業的相關的軍工啊或者是無人機等等產業有可能也會回到台灣來好那"},{"start":4886.563,"end":4903.348,"text":"再請教我們經濟部,若要讓關鍵產業回流到台灣,相信我們政府有責任將國內的投資環境來做好。之前我們有提出一個投資台灣的三大方案,現在是不是已經確定可以延續到2027年?"},{"start":4905.663,"end":4933.636,"text":"謝謝委員 這個部分我們確定是延長但是相關的具體的措施我們會聆聽業者更多的意見之後詳細的規劃再做一個宣布除此之外的話我們為了改善我們的投資環境我們對接的國發會的六大區域發展計畫不管是從水電包括廠商的投資環境的優化的工作我們持續的在進行 以上"},{"start":4935.317,"end":4944.482,"text":"我們目前對於關稅的相關政策,是不是有規劃進一步能夠擴大來辦理協助產業回流?有沒有可能?"},{"start":4946.916,"end":4972.231,"text":"擴大協助產業回流的部分我們對於剛剛所講的三大投資方案的這個部分會予以延長那除此之外的話這個延長的類別剛剛副主委有講包括五代信賴產業包括大健康包括服務業那這些都是我們所關注的一個部分好 謝謝次長跟主委"},{"start":4973.275,"end":4996.306,"text":"對於剛剛的這個部分,在政策上如果有更新,我再次也請我們僑委會一定要及時的向我們海外的僑台商來進行宣傳,讓他們也知道說我們國內的相關政策已經在做調整了。可以讓他們也可以因應相關的這個政策的變化之後,他們要如何去推動他們的商業行為這樣子。好,以上謝謝。"},{"start":5006.19,"end":5020.415,"text":"我們在現在先做一個宣告那待會在沈培安委員質詢完畢之後我們先休息十分鐘那在接下來我們就請沈培安委員黃安委員來做質詢交委會習委員長"},{"start":5038.544,"end":5059.643,"text":"黃昭偉早安好早那個針對橋台商的困境被忽視那委員長剛剛出訪到日本美國本席想請教一下委員長這一次的出訪有沒有橋台商向你反映美國對等關稅的衝擊並向你提出什麼樣的一個協助需求"},{"start":5060.704,"end":5076.354,"text":"我這一趟行程大約三個禮拜的時間基本上也就是一個產業之旅沒有錯首先到日本跑了六站我先從九州包括熊本福岡等地那當地我們確實有越來越多的這個"},{"start":5078.055,"end":5081.878,"text":"因為台積電的供應廠商上下游的進場投資那還有在地原來的橋台商確實都有反映現在的對等關稅讓他們都暫停做一些這個下單或者出貨的這些作為所以大家也都在等著觀望那由於日本的談判進度也還不知道"},{"start":5103.793,"end":5127.234,"text":"進口跟出口關稅要如何所以這部分大家具體的希望是說能夠儘早得到相關確定的資訊是他們的需求後期請委員長都要關注一下會會會之後我到美國去美國提對等關稅的政策後大家主要的討論的都是國內產業的困境那但"},{"start":5128.154,"end":5156.543,"text":"但是我國橋台商對台的貢獻多元而且是深遠的最主要的貢獻除了資金和技術外還促進台灣在全球經濟中的地位和影響力但是在這一次對等關稅衝擊大家比較忽略他們的困境那本席分析美國對等關稅政策對橋台商可能產生的衝擊包含第一個"},{"start":5157.503,"end":5178.739,"text":"成本增加競爭力下降第二供應鏈面臨了調整已遷移第三市場的策略重新的調整那第四被迫投資高成本的美國市場第五法規遵行以風險的管理請問一下委員長這個喬委會針對以上的衝擊可以給喬台商什麼樣的協助本席比較"},{"start":5186.725,"end":5211.458,"text":"橋台商投資的這個百家以上的國家被課稅對等的關係而數我們講一個歐盟對這個歐盟在台商在歐盟的有總共是593家關稅在20%那越南最高台商有487他的關稅是46%那新加坡對平等就是"},{"start":5212.879,"end":5220.722,"text":"台商有399家關稅10%日本有370家台商關稅24%馬來西亞台商有284家關稅24%泰國我們的台商270家關稅在36%這個就是排行第二"},{"start":5236.129,"end":5239.552,"text":"印度台商171家關稅26%英國141家台商關稅10%印尼140家台商關稅32%菲律賓117家台商關稅17%韓國108家"},{"start":5259.128,"end":5273.708,"text":"台商關稅在25%這個比較可以看出在新南向國家的橋台商壓力都非常大尤其最近近年來推動新南向政策去年台商在"},{"start":5274.268,"end":5286.948,"text":"其南向國家投資增幅高達57.42%其中越南的台商多但課稅又重因為它已經達到了46%是面臨的挑戰最嚴峻"},{"start":5290.212,"end":5304.971,"text":"所以本市建議委員長應該要針對越南等新南向國家的橋台商制定政策委員長常常出訪也應該安排拜會這些橋台商了解他們的需求你說"},{"start":5306.727,"end":5313.01,"text":"謝謝委員的垂詢我們對於這一次的對等關稅呢事實上是幾家歡樂幾家愁有時候是危機也是轉機比方說我們在菲律賓相對來講我們的菲律賓台商說因為全球對等關稅大家都很高那相比較之下菲律賓就算很低所以就會使得他們現在反而獲得比較多下單跟獲得投資的機會"},{"start":5332.418,"end":5346.348,"text":"所以菲律賓的台商可能在這一波裡面他們就相對有利那相對於剛剛您所提到的越南確實它是在這個過程當中是有很高的一個關稅那不過根據我們的了解就是最近這一個禮拜當中美國有第一波的15個國家談判的裡面前4個包含有日本"},{"start":5354.713,"end":5361.817,"text":"韓國、台灣及越南那這四個國家本身就是上校有供應鏈的這種產業結構的合作型態所以美國方面的商業部選擇了這個四個國家作為第一輪的前第一輪的頭四個國家我想他有一個用意是希望先談出一個比較具體的型態那麼後面的國家就可以跟著我們這些型態來走"},{"start":5383.707,"end":5390.309,"text":"根據昨天好像美國總統川普也有特別接受媒體詢問的時候提到說這個禮拜到週末可能就會有具體的一個結果會出現所以我們就看我們這四個國家包括日本、韓國、越南以及台灣我們這四個國家談判的一個初步的結果結論出來那看看我們這樣的結論呢怎麼樣來因應在其他的國家我們會配合的"},{"start":5409.795,"end":5427.807,"text":"我們必須對這個西南向越南的這些台商有487家好不好好的都關注因為他是這個關稅最高是我想他們現在面臨的困境在這個地方是的是的請回好謝謝我們請經濟部的次長好"},{"start":5439.13,"end":5456.144,"text":"川普對宜蘭石化產品祭出了二級的制裁那次長川普日前發出聲明將對任何購買宜蘭石油或石化產品的國家或個人實施二級的制裁這個政策對台灣會產生什麼樣的影響"},{"start":5458.337,"end":5478.083,"text":"目前為止我們現在關心因為關稅的政策對全球的經濟發展的需求有在觀望甚至有比較降低而現在全球的石化包括石油市場整體的價格從上週來看的話是下降的"},{"start":5478.843,"end":5505.519,"text":"以經濟部而言我們是密切的關注我們包括石油還有包括我們能源進口的這個價格的這個變動我們希望在這一波的衝擊裡面特別是要穩定我們的民生減少廠商的生產成本這個是為我們所要的工作現在川普不管今天我們對伊朗有任何的投資裡面他就是要做二等的二級的制裁"},{"start":5506.119,"end":5523.848,"text":"所以我們去了解我國目前在伊朗還有大約在1400萬美元的進口貿易額雖然不多但本席注意到川普的用語是從伊朗購買任何數量的石油或石化產品代表如果1400萬美元的進口"},{"start":5526.61,"end":5537.941,"text":"貿易必須完全歸零才會免受制裁如果採購合約是場約我國勢必要承擔違約的成本"},{"start":5540.881,"end":5560.34,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我們對於石油或是天然氣長短約的這個配比我現在要問的就是現在要歸零所以免受制裁但是現在如果我國這個採購的合約是長約我國勢必要承擔違約的成本是不是"},{"start":5561.498,"end":5573.671,"text":"跟委員說明第一個你剛剛講的這個假設性的這個問題我們密切的關注但是我們對於長短約的部分我們有一個穩定的配比第三個部分是基於"},{"start":5576.106,"end":5592.856,"text":"這個貿易的信賴的程度我們對於各個簽約的國家或是簽約的廠商我們必須要服從我們這個所謂的商業的基本的原則這個信用度在對於我們穩定的採購是非常重要的一個事項"},{"start":5594.98,"end":5608.362,"text":"那另外是主席再給我幾分鐘那有關於次長這個部長日前嗆台電的員工看不下去可以離開你認同這樣的一個說法嗎"},{"start":5609.702,"end":5634.817,"text":"首先跟委員說明我們部長對於我們國營事業包含台電在內所有員工的福利包括薪水是非常重視的所以他上任了之後就要求對於員工的部分不管是待遇 職籍的部分來去加碼甚至讓員工有比較好的這個福利的環境那至於說剛剛這個"},{"start":5637.529,"end":5665.343,"text":"實在上面有提到的這個缺考率或是可能有跳槽的情況其實在各行各業裡面我們看到因為台灣在這幾年因為政府的所謂的穩定經濟的措施各行各業都有蓬勃的發展今天我講的本席想為台電的員工說一句話公道話台電過去一直是所謂有國營事業中的典範"},{"start":5666.423,"end":5679.275,"text":"那從孫益賢擔任總經理台電一直是最務實的單位幾乎可以說是台灣經濟發展的命脈台電人也一直在台電服務為榮"},{"start":5682.611,"end":5703.047,"text":"自從民進黨政府以意識形態操控能源政策後台電虧損嚴重加上民進黨積極推動的綠電弊案重申台電卻被迫配合使得台電的光榮感正在消失所以本席想要說的這個"},{"start":5704.108,"end":5707.751,"text":"有真憑實際的這個事情台電過去一直是國營事業招考的熱門顯像從108年起報考人數不斷減少從108年的2.6萬人減少到114年的1.1萬人"},{"start":5724.582,"end":5734.119,"text":"今年考生缺考率更高達一半還有不少原子台電員工跳槽到中華電信所以可見"},{"start":5735.356,"end":5760.002,"text":"你們在台對台電不但是沒有好好的鼓勵他們來給他們一個支持反而郭部長對員工來嗆說看不下去就可以離開這樣的一個對話我想對整個台電的員工來講真的是一個不公平啊"},{"start":5760.442,"end":5773.351,"text":"委員是否容我針對你的質詢做以下的這個回答首先台電將近兩萬六千名的員工始終以來就是秉持了剛剛委員所講的孫玉璇的精神"},{"start":5774.505,"end":5793.64,"text":"在為全國穩定供電甚至是包括近幾年為了能源轉型而努力以火力電廠為例對於污染物的排放台電這幾年的表現非常好從過去遠遠超過4萬噸現在是已經降到3萬噸第二個數據停電的次數從1106年的15000次現在降到7000多次這是第一點"},{"start":5803.487,"end":5830.328,"text":"第二點我剛剛針對你郭部長講的得不得體看不下去可以離開現在我不要講你別的事情現在針對這個問題就好了你還回答我部長一直支持所有的台電的員工看不下去可以離開的問題你認同這樣的一句話嗎對台電的員工來講有沒有公平我現在要你回答這個不是要你回答別的"},{"start":5831.451,"end":5844.069,"text":"首先跟委員說明台電的員工在公司內部無論是對於促進公司的治理他有很好的工會的資質麻煩次長轉達一下郭部長"},{"start":5845.256,"end":5860.562,"text":"任何一件事要面對不管是委員要執行的麻煩你要一一的來對答對員工來講要好好的來照顧我們對員工一直是非常好的照顧謝謝委員的指導 謝謝接下來請沈培安委員上台質詢"},{"start":5880.395,"end":5881.578,"text":"謝謝主席有請這個經濟部次長謝謝"},{"start":5892.848,"end":5914.989,"text":"委員好市長好我知道今天題目雖然是對喬委會但是我想說其實有蠻多的事情可能經濟部更了解我等一下最後才問喬委會這樣子那一開始就是說這一次有新聞報導說這一個美工官員說川普對中國的關稅有四個最終的目標那包含這一個"},{"start":5915.829,"end":5929.867,"text":"終止這個竊取智慧財產權打擊非法傾銷這個惡止匯率的操縱跟減少貿易的赤製那裡面當然對我們最重要的應該是第一個就是竊取智慧財產權因為台灣過往也有被指控過有這樣的一些問題"},{"start":5931.048,"end":5953.498,"text":"去年的時候也有問過經濟部相關的一些疑問那目前來講呢就是我們之前有在整理就是說這是在日本的狀況那他們有整理各式各樣這種技術流出的型態包含這個海外的輸出啊投資啊有一些合法的方式又或者說透過人才的挖角商業的間諜那這邊所以我想要問經濟部幾件事情就是第一個就是"},{"start":5954.338,"end":5978.147,"text":"就是我們的國家安全法第三條裡面有規定這個國家核心關鍵技術之營業秘密就是說這一個部分是在保護的範圍那這一次這個我看到邱志偉委員跟黃婕委員有想要把營業秘密拿掉那他的理由是因為說如果今天企業主他自己沒有把它規範在營業秘密裡面但我們又認為它是國家核心關鍵技術"},{"start":5979.668,"end":6002.201,"text":"那這樣的話呢就沒有辦法被涵蓋到因為畢竟國家核心關鍵技術知營業秘密營業秘密扣在那邊嘛不過法務部就有不同的看法法務部認為說如果你把營業秘密拿掉的話國家核心關鍵技術又會太多所以現在我想知道說以經濟部的立場因為畢竟法務部是就法論法他會知道這個法律的範圍啊什麼等等的大小但以經濟部的看法"},{"start":6002.941,"end":6024.902,"text":"跟法務部之後如果要對接要討論這一個法案的時候這個到底營業秘密這四個字到底要留還是不留如果不留或者留的話留的話當然就是跟現行法一樣嘛那如果不留又怕太大有沒有任何的方式可以把國家核心關鍵技術把它怎麼講把它擴張解釋也就是說呢讓它不要被現在的法條受限有沒有這樣的一個想法"},{"start":6025.928,"end":6044.46,"text":"首先我們針對於國家的關鍵技術這個是部分其實我們國家有國科會在做定義對於你剛剛講的包括先進製程我們就以半導體為例的話其實它整個一個製程或是它一個發展相關多的智慧財產必須"},{"start":6047.523,"end":6075.088,"text":"要去獲得保障他才有辦法持續的進行領先所以經濟部的立場針對於國家核心的關鍵技術確實是要保障針對於智慧營業秘密的這個部分我們目前為止我們經過內部的討論我們是認為說保留原來的這個條文是比較恰當因為有一些它是衍生性的東西"},{"start":6075.948,"end":6099.789,"text":"所以你若是把它完全的刪除的話其實對於廠商的競爭力來講是會有些影響的對 但就是說我們現在害怕的事情就是說以執法來講有營業秘密扣在那邊其實它本來就有精準的定義所以我們到底哪些叫做國家核心關係或是營業秘密這個是很方便的一個做法但如果今天它自己不把它定義成營業秘密的時候那我們要該怎麼辦"},{"start":6101.132,"end":6117.133,"text":"這個我們必須要在做執法上面跟相關的這個部會去把它所謂的定義的部分更加清楚這個可以落實的話不但是保障我們國家的產業對於個別的這個廠商也是一個保障"},{"start":6118.315,"end":6142.178,"text":"對 剛剛市長這樣的一個講法意思就是說因為我們都把廠商想的就是廠商自己當然是想要保障自己的秘密嘛所以他有營業秘密的規範但因為在滲透日益嚴重的狀況之下又包含現在可能會有這個技術有可能會被竊取又可能會有被滲透在這個狀況之下我們怕的是他廠商自己不把它變成營業秘密那他如果把它變成不是營業秘密的時候那我們在這樣的一個法條的規範上我們該如何"},{"start":6143.867,"end":6157.804,"text":"廠商會自證或是對於他自己的利益有威脅的這個部分把他取消這個部分當然不排除他可能會有這個原因廠商不是為了自己他在為了別人的時候"},{"start":6158.556,"end":6180.884,"text":"所以這個時候到底該如何我想說這也是為什麼當時修法會被提出來這樣的一個用意但我也覺得就是說畢竟畢竟1A秘密這個在執法上面是比較方便的一個狀態在各國其實也很多時候都有這樣的規定但是因為台灣現在的狀況比較特殊所以我們在想說就是如果說就算到最後真的要把它刪除的話勢必還是要把國家核心關鍵技術做線索的解釋不然它會很廣"},{"start":6181.644,"end":6205.031,"text":"當然所以這件事情我覺得是值得討論我也沒有一定的答案那就可能因為這一個上次有已經被我們有先排過一次有討論過了不是在國防外交那我再相信在接下來幾個月尤其在關稅談判的過程當中這可能還是會被討論那我想說經濟部可能做這個準備跟法務部等等之類的可能再做好這個密切的討論這樣到最後我們再下結論的時候可能在立法院這邊比較有充足的資訊"},{"start":6205.914,"end":6224.95,"text":"是謝謝委員的指導我們無論是執行現有的法規或是未來的修法我們會跟相當單位做好配合針對於國家的利益還有包括廠商他自己的競爭力的部分做好相關的這個防備的這個措施對因為畢竟廠商自己的利益跟國家的利益有時候不一定會align所以這是我們擔心的地方"},{"start":6225.35,"end":6244.625,"text":"那再來就是洗產地這件事情,就是說因為我看到,就是我先講越南跟泰國啦那越南跟泰國他們最近有做這一個說要加強這一個要檢查然後避免要發放偽造的產地的證明書啦那泰國也有做一些措施那我看到這個5月7號,5月7號是不是就是明天"},{"start":6245.726,"end":6246.126,"text":"第一 防範洗產地"},{"start":6261.994,"end":6278.026,"text":"我們過去以來包括跟財政部都有很好的配合措施包括加強宣導建立所謂的潛在關鍵的名單然後去監視進出口的這個部分甚至是研發但是若是這個部分做得不確實"},{"start":6280.228,"end":6294.068,"text":"也可能會影響我們個別的廠商它的產業的發展除此之外對於我們國家的利益也會有影響所以經濟部才會宣布從今天開始我們要自己要做得更好"},{"start":6295.39,"end":6310.564,"text":"台灣一直是世界各國在所謂的貿易活動裡面是一個我們遵守法尊的這個優等聖我們希望我們自己做更好也不希望說有任何的這個可能性來危害我們國家"},{"start":6311.705,"end":6329.782,"text":"包括產業的部分對 這個我覺得這一次算是反應非常的快因為畢竟我們現在就是要進入到這一個關稅的談判然後我覺得有這樣的事情我覺得在談判的過程當中是非常的有力那這邊因為我有看到說這個違者罪高跟署新台幣300萬的這一個甚至還可以吊銷"},{"start":6331.005,"end":6345.464,"text":"還可以吊銷啦那再來就是說它有可能也會有燈載不實的問題嘛使公園燈載不實是好所以我覺得這是一個很好的措施啦因為畢竟如果說我們在還沒有修法之前在行政端能夠先做出這樣的措施我認為是很有幫助的"},{"start":6345.845,"end":6375.16,"text":"他又是有違反刑法的話我們還會移送好 我覺得這是一個這是一個非常好的示範所以我是希望說各部會以後都可以像有如此快的一個反應那我們剛剛講的都是比較偏防堵面就是說我們怕說這一個席產地怕說技術被竊取但今天的題目其實更大一部分是在於說要怎麼去協助這些就是他們畢竟現在有一些台商他們現在也在抱怨因為這個美國的這些措施所以這些協助的部分我相信僑委會是現在首當其衝"},{"start":6375.78,"end":6383.954,"text":"那我因為只剩一點時間我想問一下那現在溝通的機制就是說經濟部這邊是怎麼去協助僑委會去幫助這些在海外的這些台商"},{"start":6384.594,"end":6407.422,"text":"首先我們在各個比如說以東南亞國家為例我剛剛在書面報告裡面有講我們有貿易服務中心那除此之外我們駐外的單位我們的經濟組會跟這個僑委會密切的對接而我們會積極的參與我們僑委會所辦理的各項的台商包括是說明會 聚會去把這些的訊息披露出來"},{"start":6408.562,"end":6438.048,"text":"因為我覺得這件事情很重要是因為像在談判的一個過程當中美國譬如說他們對於自己在譬如說他們的國家裡面他有關的商人他們現在在做什麼樣的措施他們現在在他這些情報其實也都在他們收集的範圍所以如果說我們今天這個溝通越順暢的話巧合會的幫助是越多的話其實對他們來講他們會知道說原來你們現在不只在談判的過程當中你們已經祭出什麼樣的措施你們在地方上其實都已經在協助自己的商人做"},{"start":6439.269,"end":6461.107,"text":"這個相關的這些應對的措施這個對他們來講會是重要的資訊經濟部非常感謝喬和會對我們台灣的經濟包括各個財商的這個協助讓我們各住在國所有的台商的經濟的發展都有保持充分的動力好那就希望繼續維持那剛剛修法的部分就可能再麻煩次長把它帶回去我們再我覺得認為這幾個月應該會是被密集討論的一個議題"},{"start":6463.953,"end":6475.437,"text":"好 謝謝委員指導好 謝謝 那今天就來不及問喬委會了謝謝 謝謝主席謝謝沈委員這個上台資訊那現在休息十分鐘那十分鐘後我們後續繼續的來詢問"},{"start":7093.761,"end":7098.922,"text":"現在開始開會 我們接下來由我們的林楚瑩委員上台質詢謝謝主席 主席邀請我們的徐委員長"},{"start":7117.972,"end":7138.2,"text":"稍後如果跟經濟不相關的話,那麼也請賴長次,謝謝委員長,我特別看了一下報告,特別提到的是有關於Made by Taiwan我覺得這個想法很好,那麼也很開心在這個報告當中有看到事實上是從2021年我們就開始做了"},{"start":7141.201,"end":7160.568,"text":"那麼我們知道對於這個對等關稅那麼現在目前本席特別整理了一下我們幾個新南向的台商他們事實上在越南、泰國、印尼、印度、菲律賓跟新加坡都各自建立了所謂的產業聚落因為這是我們多年推動新南向非常重要的成果可是也同樣的看到了我現在旁邊寫的這個數字46%、37%、32%、27%這個不是產業聚落的%數"},{"start":7167.751,"end":7177.544,"text":"就是對等關稅是的沒錯那麼我們看到尤其是像在越南我們有這個消費性電子跟紡織的重要聚落但是它被課以46%的對等關稅其實這個一出來之後許多人都關心我們新南向的台商的狀況那麼"},{"start":7185.214,"end":7193.978,"text":"我們現在同時提出了Made by Taiwan是不是可以有助於幫助他們可以在面對未來在這些他們住在國的國家的這個所謂被課等對等關稅那麼有沒有辦法透過相關的僑委會的協助或是經濟部現在對美的談判能夠把Made by Taiwan而不是Made in Taiwan能夠結合在一起"},{"start":7211.727,"end":7224.57,"text":"那麼在這個部分喬委會有沒有進一步的想法跟委員報告我們事實上從2021年開始做這個海外台商精品獎主要目的就是說有鑒於我們台商從90年代開始的對外投資還有企業的跨國移出越來越頻繁規模也越來越大因此我們認為說如何讓我們的台商不要只有單純做代工"},{"start":7239.233,"end":7260.869,"text":"這樣的一個角色算毛三道四的這種博麗所以呢是希望透過這個模式來鼓勵台商可以建立自由品牌那當然這一次因應美國的對等關稅確實是全球都有受到影響但每一個國家受的影響程度會不一樣以這個菲律賓來說他是相對輕的他只有17到18%那所以他就會覺得說大家都被課對等關稅很重的時候那反而是他的機會"},{"start":7268.715,"end":7278.178,"text":"所以他可以得到的訂單就增加他會得到的投資也會增加所以我們的台商在彼此串聯之間我們會去想辦法協助他們讓他們知道說等到所有的談判就定位以後各自國家的差異性在哪裡他們如何選擇對他們相對有利的聯合廠商去進行相關的生產總之只要不是在台灣建廠的製造"},{"start":7297.703,"end":7303.227,"text":"我們都把它稱為就Made by Taiwan就是台灣精品對就台灣精品但概念上來說呢在研發或設計上面基本上還是鼓勵他們設在台灣有一個辦公室能夠在台灣接單那製造在海外最好也能夠直接到市場端去設廠製造所以當然也包括在美國所以確實最近也有不少我們北美洲的台商跟"},{"start":7325.881,"end":7330.884,"text":"亞洲的台商最近都是非常密集的在交流也在談這些可能的跨界跨州投資的狀況所以說我也要詢問一下我們經濟部的賴長士長士我覺得這個透過喬委會今天的報告所看到的這個"},{"start":7343.112,"end":7354.596,"text":"May by Taiwan也許是一些我們過去在推動新南向的時候這些已經在新南向國家設廠的街廠商可以找到另外一條出路啦因為說實話要把廠移走或者是說要寄予說他們住在國的這個談判其實也不知道是什麼樣一個狀況雖然台灣有很好消息傳來是說我們在首波第一輪我們就完成了談判"},{"start":7368.942,"end":7385.975,"text":"那麼May by Taiwan在這個部分就經濟部來講有沒有可能在這個部分可以幫我們的在新南向國家在設廠的這些台商們找到一個新的契機至少他們不用被虧像越南啊或者是泰國印尼這樣被課這麼高的這樣一個關稅那麼如果就剛剛徐委員長所說的還是希望他們要有一個辦公室設在台灣"},{"start":7395.663,"end":7423.02,"text":"那麼在這樣的狀況底下他就可以成為台灣精品而不是只是所謂的台灣的代工那麼目前這樣的想法有沒有可行那也有機會幫我們只是單獨設廠的台商做解套是的我們一直用這個方向以例如台灣行銷全世界比如說剛剛委員長所講的菲律賓委令那菲律賓剛剛也有提到因為他在這個關稅裡面稍微衝擊比較小是"},{"start":7424.06,"end":7448.366,"text":"我們經濟部會在九月也會辦台灣的所謂的精品的展在菲律賓這個地方希望藉由如此來促進我們在地的台商甚至是我們現在在台灣的產業去發展這是第一第二個部分事實上我們在這一次的特別條例裡面特別有提到屬於經濟部的面向有一個是多元拓銷"},{"start":7449.446,"end":7478.809,"text":"那多元拓銷的這個方式的話我們希望說引領我們台灣的廠商可以行銷全世界那這個一直以來是我們努力的方向好 這個所謂在經濟部所辦的這個台灣精品啦跟這個僑委會所現在推動的Made by Taiwan我想都是很好的一個角度跟方向但是我又怕兩者之間變成有競爭關係但不論如何本席也特別去做了一些整理"},{"start":7479.369,"end":7481.33,"text":"從2021年辦第一屆到去年2024年辦第三屆我們發現這個報名的件數跟廠商好像沒有往上升但是我自己認為啦這個也有一個可能啦因為原本我們可能在這個新南向國家所設立"},{"start":7497.659,"end":7518.094,"text":"非代工而是自有自創品牌的就這麼多但是現在也許是一個契機我想問一下許委員長或經濟部既然如此的話要不要趁這個機會其實要好好的宣傳跟行銷一下因為我們現在做台灣的自由品牌反而會比代工來划算尤其是像在越南或者是泰國這種相對的在美國的對等關稅比較高的這個國家"},{"start":7524.539,"end":7529.764,"text":"確實林委員所鼓勵的方向是一個可以思考的點那我們當然也是在等這個對美的談判有一個比較清楚的結論出來的時候那因應著這一個相關的結論我們再來規劃後續輔導這些"},{"start":7541.235,"end":7546.118,"text":"在南向國家原來在做代工的這些製造業看他們可以怎麼樣配合台灣的這個談判的結果呢來促進他們這個自由品牌的建構然後走比較高端的市場甚至是分散市場的概念除了美國市場包括歐洲歐盟市場或者是在亞洲市場的拓展至少在中東市場也是一個非常大的區塊東協市場也有相當的人口數量那這些都是我們積極要想"},{"start":7571.735,"end":7586.807,"text":"把made by Taiwan當作是一個可以附加價值提高這樣的一個核心概念那所有的台商就均等都會受惠所以在解決這個對等關稅的談判之後我想我們會配合這個核心概念來持續的輔導我們在不同國家的相關企業的投資案"},{"start":7591.89,"end":7618.123,"text":"我也要請長賜回應一下因為我自己認為這個概念很好但是不要說僑委會做僑委會的經濟部做經濟部的教會很可惜不會我們一直都有密切的聯繫包括跟國發會跟經濟部我們都是台灣團隊最後跟主席借一分鐘就好本席也有關心到當然現在就是我們新南向拚經濟這個子女的教育也要兼顧當然本席知道這個有關於台校跟橋校不一樣那麼橋校才是"},{"start":7621.665,"end":7636.385,"text":"歸僑委會來管喔但是我在今年的4月23號的時候也幫我們東南亞四所台灣學校來爭取有關的補助那主要的原因當然還是因為中國的台灣學校這個每一位學生補助是三萬五那東南亞其實只有一萬"},{"start":7636.986,"end":7647.835,"text":"但是我當然知道面對這個才化法修正115年之後中央包括各個部會都有30%要直接撥到地方去但是它直接影響到的會是跟國際有關跟地方無關尤其是在全球的這些學校不論其實不論是橋校或台商學校都會受到影響那麼我想要請徐委員長當面臨這樣的衝擊的時候有沒有思考一下就是"},{"start":7664.969,"end":7688.884,"text":"我其實雖然說在這個跟教育部的協調教育部是說如果預算足夠之下教育部會考慮把我們東南亞四個台灣學校的學生的補助從一萬提升到一萬五多個五千塊但是這個言下之意也形塑出來的是那麼其他的橋校也可能受到預算的波及可能因為才化法的關係那麼會不會影響到這個我們橋委會補助這些不論是橋校或者是其他學校的預算"},{"start":7694.648,"end":7697.309,"text":"跟委員報告我們今年度因為這個總預算審查的時候針對業務費總體刪除了10%那當然這個10%當中也包括了這個橋校的部分所以確實我們在某些橋校的補助上面今年度都會多少會降低一些那針對台校的部分呢台校因為在東南亞有4所"},{"start":7719.1,"end":7727.272,"text":"規模量體都不是很大而且非常熱門所以排在waiting list的學生很多所以無論有無補助我們的台商還有我們的台橋還是會想辦法要先把孩子送去那邊讀書因為他們孩子將來都想要回到台灣繼續升學"},{"start":7734.462,"end":7738.744,"text":"不過我們當然是樂見於說在預算足夠的狀況下可以給他們多一些的資源跟補助而且我們對這些學校過去成立的時候是教育部出50% 僑委會出50%合資讓他們成立的學校一般的僑校事實上他們都是自給自足我們只是補助他們比方說給他們教材 給他們師資的培訓"},{"start":7759.714,"end":7764.837,"text":"還有一些這個自聘教師的終點補助等等那這一部分我們確實有受影響所以也不會員跟委員報告我預算不夠所以我這一年都要去找很多廠商募款好 那麼其實說到補助可能不是學費或者是學生個人但是本席也找到確實在113年我們在胡志明市的台灣學校或是四水或是雅加達都有活動的補助但是我發現這個活動補助其實真的很少"},{"start":7789.11,"end":7808.758,"text":"250塊美元的話換算大概都是10萬不到那我也覺得因為這些都是像漢字文化啦或者是這個華語文的文化我覺得它其實這個是橋校或是台校最重要的這個部分如果未來預算許可的話我認為至少活動的補助上面還是可以再多一點跟委員說明我們大概"},{"start":7809.818,"end":7812.34,"text":"所有僑界的活動大部分經費不可能全額給他補助大概都只補助大概30到50%就最高了所以僑界也都長期了解說在政府預算有限狀況下他們也會在地去籌募資金來辦有意義的活動那近年來當然我們在"},{"start":7830.27,"end":7852.945,"text":"這個增多周少的狀況之下我們會還有就是匯率的波動我們確實都會受到一些預算不足的影響所以也期待大院能夠多多的支持本會的預算因為我們會我們的基期真的很低所以再怎麼樣我們的預算規模到目前也才接近20億而已那海外這麼多的橋校其實我們如果能夠好好的培養補助他們我相信他們的以後這些都是我們的人才"},{"start":7857.588,"end":7870.879,"text":"好 我們就下會期預算會期的時候我們115年來好好努力一下好的 謝謝林委員 謝謝謝謝林楚瑩委員的資訊接下來由陳冠廷委員上台資訊您好 我們請委員長"},{"start":7892.495,"end":7920.017,"text":"陳委員早安委員長早委員長今天我剛剛看到就是應該是說有一些橋橋霧相關的同仁有反應說芝加哥台灣同學會同鄉會還有這個其他的一些相關包含同學會還有同窗會等等都有類似的問題就是說他們參加活動的時候可能會面臨到說自行攜帶"},{"start":7921.838,"end":7930.479,"text":"他們認為對台灣有幫助的旗幟但是這些旗幟在照片分享的時候可能會有一些事後的審查"},{"start":7931.243,"end":7956.826,"text":"那我今天沒有特別講是同鄉會同窗會還是這個同學會的原因是因為我不想因為針對個案那我是希望說更廣泛的來去請教委員長就是說現在我們有沒有所謂的審查機制就是說在一些巧合會的活動的時候那有一些跟政治比較相關的活動我們會不會有事先審查讓他願不讓他可不可以來去PO上網之類的"},{"start":7957.346,"end":7980.822,"text":"不會的委員你知道台灣民主化三十多年來我們非常重視民主自由跟人權所以言論自由跟採訪自由跟所有相關的人身相關自由我們都非常的重視那對於新聞志工新聞志工雖然也是志工但是我們也是有一些基本的訓練的原則所以並不會進行所謂的言論審查"},{"start":7985.285,"end":8001.133,"text":"或者是對於他人僑團的各種旗幟進行這個修正那這裡面我所了解是當時他們是他們其實彼此都是好朋友他其實只是這是一個小誤會他只是想試試他的修圖能力然後就傳給兩個朋友看結果這兩個朋友呢就以為他這個是要登出來的東西因此就"},{"start":8007.796,"end":8035.414,"text":"造成了一些誤會但事實上並沒有公開這個照片從頭到尾沒有公開而且昨天已經上稿的東西呢還是照原來的東西登出來完全沒有東西被修改過所以在經過民主化那麼久之後因為我為什麼講同學會同窗會跟同鄉會因為我自己的親人過去也是在在我媽媽那一邊的親人大概是在他研究所博士之後就出國然後就沒有回來因為他是比較支持台灣主體意識"},{"start":8035.834,"end":8060.277,"text":"支持台灣奴隸等等台派社團包括他參加一些北美教授協會等等當然那個時代跟現在這個時代那個時代是比較威權統治的時代有很多一些旗幟什麼基本上都不能夠允許來在我們政府官方的網站上面出現我想請教既然委員長有提到這個FAPA的部分"},{"start":8060.797,"end":8083.741,"text":"未來假設包含FAPA會員他自行攜帶象徵台灣主體意識的這些旗幟我們會不會審查不會這個其實都是大家的自主的意志嘛跟他的言論自由更何況這些都是發生在第三國在台灣已經受到言論保障那我相信在海外更是應該有這個尤其在民主國家"},{"start":8084.221,"end":8100.05,"text":"所以我特別也是藉這個機會跟我們這個陳情的好朋友說不用擔心僑委會還有我們不管是在第三地或者是在本國的土地上面他們的言論自由是百分之百受到保障的是的不會有"},{"start":8100.39,"end":8110.616,"text":"未來也不會有什麼這種圖改的 因為這事是完全就是就是misunderstanding嘛 就誤會沒有說我們會審查不讓你上去 不是這個意思的 是 剛才委員長也是這個意思不過這個個人之間的這個小誤會呢 也是提醒我們讓我們更加注意說每一年這個全球分布六大洲的新聞志工要如何的讓他們更精進那採訪的內容能夠忠實於這個被採訪的對象"},{"start":8126.345,"end":8142.89,"text":"也就是說我們僑務工作是不會排斥政治立場我們不會帶著任何政治的眼光看待這些事情但是如果說有傷害國家利益的比方說去鼓吹說是台灣是中國的一部分這個我們當然是有一定的堅持這個是不可以當然這個既定的國家立場這個國家利益這個還是既定的立場"},{"start":8146.051,"end":8154.898,"text":"還是要有一定的但是基本上除此之外在言論自由的保障之下只要不傷害國家利益我們不會事先審查言論自由是大家要互相尊重而且這也有相關的規範但是言論自由不包含對他人的惡性攻擊或者是人身攻擊等等所以這些我想我們還是有法律的依據在規範所以我們還是強調就是教育會"},{"start":8170.871,"end":8195.187,"text":"他的公告原則沒有這個自我審查沒有過度干預那他也不是沒有說什麼不涉及政治因為其實每一個東西這憲法保障人民的自由包含我們對政治的表述這個是很基本的所以這個部分我們也要藉此機會跟所有這個在美國的這些好朋友們來講說這是言論自由我們沒有事先審查我們也會提醒我們所有的志工不過還是另外一部分就是"},{"start":8196.987,"end":8211.372,"text":"歷史的這個看法我們的台橋其實不僅是台橋因為現在台橋台派中華民國派等等他們都是為了台灣的整體利益當然會有不同的看法只是說我們是希望說未來包含委員長能夠"},{"start":8212.93,"end":8227.079,"text":"多一些座談多一些機會整合我們不同意見在國外的時候意見不同當然就是比方說我們有支持台灣獨立媒體跟陳委員報告其實這個對我來說我來僑委會服務已經五年多了我是非常這個能夠"},{"start":8229.921,"end":8247.65,"text":"面對這種同一個場裡面大家有不同的立場有不同的看法但是我們只是一個平台這個平台是提供大家互動跟討論的一個空間那在這個過程當中我們確保每一個人他都有表達的自由也不會因此呢受到貼標籤化的這個做"},{"start":8249.731,"end":8275.171,"text":"那我們當然是用對話取代敵視那同時我為什麼今天要特別在講這個的原因就是因為過去這個台派在美國也好他有他的歷史的傷痕在的因為過去有長時間我們轉型正義還沒有說完整喔長時間在美國的時候都會擔心說這個人一直在跟我是不是這個職業學生確實以前很多台派社團被列為黑名單職業學生會不會說要回報回去等等"},{"start":8275.871,"end":8295.929,"text":"他們會有這樣子的看法我們會有這樣子看我們會有這樣的擔心也是因為這是歷史的累積起來的這也是轉型正義的一部分所以我們今天為什麼在這邊告訴大家說我們不會事先審查過去不會未來也不會的原因就是說因為有這些歷史的傷痕在那歷史的傷痕是需要時間去把它療癒的嘛這也是轉型正義很重要的一部分不然為什麼我們現在講的是這個交通委員會"},{"start":8296.77,"end":8317.925,"text":"有台橋台橋還有華僑這個華僑是中華民國的華僑不是中華人民共和國的華僑這個我們要分清楚也就是說我們正在把包括性的不斷的擴大就是說我們為什麼包含總統他會提到這些台灣中華民國的這些歷史為什麼會有不同族群的人在各個不同的時代一個一個進來從這個日本時代過後然後這個中華民國的時代到"},{"start":8322.168,"end":8339.595,"text":"我們台灣到現在一步一步的這樣子往前進的時候我們不可以就是辣掉說不同的族群因為這個族群是不斷的在擴大的我們是更加的包容性的所以說這個時間點我們特別要強調說台灣的多元的標誌還有台灣的言論自由"},{"start":8340.495,"end":8365.709,"text":"Differentiate我們跟中華人民跟俄國不同的地方是的所以我們是中華民國的僑務委員會也是在把我們之間的分得很清楚不是在台灣內部而是把中華民國台灣我們包裹成一個共同利益共同主體的這一個部分所以這一次一些僑務委員那有特別提到說有一些僑領突囂台獨起沒有這回事沒有就是這個是誤會純粹是誤會對以後未來"},{"start":8368.584,"end":8382.316,"text":"一樣 就是說能夠把那個言論自由經營期拿出去也沒關係是好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝我們陳冠廷委員的質詢接下來由王定宇委員上台質詢好 主席麻煩委員長"},{"start":8402.711,"end":8423.09,"text":"王委員你好委員長我在開始今天題目之前我還是要提醒我剛有聽陳冠廷委員提芝加克這個事情是我只提醒一個原則就是很多台僑以前是不喜歡跟僑委會站在一起是都不跟官方接觸的不是官方特別僑委會就不想跟僑委會站在一起對所以這一次發生有所謂的僑委會的志工"},{"start":8424.677,"end":8442.911,"text":"這個剛剛我解釋過那是誤會不管是誰去Photoshop那個圖其實在美國在台灣這種事情都已經很罕見了不應該去做所謂言論審查那這個如果是誤會解釋清楚那我覺得一個在美國發生的波瀾跟我們之間的友好的一個活動"},{"start":8443.772,"end":8470.058,"text":"不要因為這些事情去抹殺了很多人的用心我今天要請教我們委員長第一個題目是有關對等關稅的部分當然這不是你主責的啦經濟部跟我們現在談判辦以及鄭麗君副委員長現在正在美國華府那我也剛從那邊回來我現在是就我們僑委會相關的部分僑委會沒包雙包害啦關稅也不是你在管的"},{"start":8470.678,"end":8478.543,"text":"但是因為我看你們的報告書裡面有說有看到來這個影像不見了可能後面那個"},{"start":8480.814,"end":8500.977,"text":"好 這個 喬委會本身的報告就說你們有向這個台商進行相關的瞭解嘛你們目前瞭解的情況怎麼樣 特別因為這一次對等關稅 東南亞是一大塊中國的台商不歸你們管就是在東南亞的台商 你們目前聽到的訊息是什麼"},{"start":8501.893,"end":8504.116,"text":"我們其實在4月2號之後呢一個禮拜後我們就針對各國的台商會長先發一個前期的結論是什麼因為時間有限結論因為各國狀況很不一樣"},{"start":8516.633,"end":8544.005,"text":"那所以大家都現在對於這種不確定性的狀況後來因為宣布了90天或這個暫停可是大家對於這個目前的狀況覺得很不確定的情況下都會暫停下單或者暫停出貨避免風波4月2號的liberation day那一天是很多人暫停下單到4月9號宣布有70個國家左右90 days post"},{"start":8545.123,"end":8559.963,"text":"那天開始其實即單喔是即單不是暫停喔就是說趕快趕快把我Christmas要的你90天內搶到船位送過來因為那個90天內是所以4月份這個確實container是很對"},{"start":8561.224,"end":8575.373,"text":"所以你該講說現在是單子沒有單或冷凍不太一樣啦現在應該是搶90天內的單而台灣是前面四個國家優先在談判的一旦確定從90 days pause移到"},{"start":8576.601,"end":8597.446,"text":"有永久性的暫停的話當然對台灣是利多的消息我還是回到我們交友會的業務跟委員報告其實是有業別的差異剛剛講的這個Christmas比較是這個我只是舉例啦我現在意思說你們對東南亞我們的東南亞因為他的型態上我們會分業別的差異性就是說他是鞋子的或者是成衣的你們這個調查報告有沒有出來"},{"start":8600.167,"end":8626.021,"text":"這個是第一階段只是先問會長接下來五月六月我們兩個月份會針對各州開始普發問卷跟這個東西訊息萬變是的是的你如果先問出來的東西沒有馬上變報告下個禮拜變垃圾沒用了因為搞不好川普又宣布一個新的或者是間接性的關係比方說要稀產地那中國跟這個東南亞國家之間產生什麼樣關稅的關係馬來西亞就宣布啦"},{"start":8626.801,"end":8646.097,"text":"所以內地宣布對供應鏈它的component是從中國過來到馬來西亞組裝最終市場是在美國的跟直接在馬來西亞生產的又不一樣所以我說你們調查報告我只看到一句話說有去了解但是這些報告如果沒辦法快速地彙整我給你一個具體建議跟經濟部合作"},{"start":8647.639,"end":8674.657,"text":"因為這訊息變得很快啦那現在我們在東南亞投資其實已經超越這個中國成為是比中國還要大的投資市場那美國是第一大然後第二大是對東南亞中國以前佔比最大我們對外投資以前中國大概佔市場歐盟也增加非常多現在我們對中國的投資只剩下個位數7%多第一大投資對目標國是美國第二大是東南亞再來就是歐盟"},{"start":8675.037,"end":8701.699,"text":"如果了解這個狀況的話在東南亞第一大的當中的國家就是越南佔比相當高那他的關稅打擊其實也重越南也直接喊出來對美要0%現在他跟台灣是第一輪四個國家談判所以你們對於類似在東南亞的業界關稅你也不能介入他國內政他們國家的事情我們可以對他們提供什麼樣的協助"},{"start":8702.379,"end":8721.415,"text":"一方面我們會了解就是廠商業別然後再來就是說它是除了越南廠以外是不是還有其他廠因為根據我們了解他們很多從中國移出以後不是只有投資在越南廠你這個還是在研究階段我意思是你手上有什麼政策工具你手上有什麼樣的政治工具可以去幫助我們海外僑客商"},{"start":8722.176,"end":8746.754,"text":"第一個就是我們這個信保基金如果他們在短期內他們需要融資短期資金需求的融資那第二個就是說幫他們就是做彙整一些相關的資訊提供他們一些資訊的協助那現在有關我們對於橋外商的協助有涵蓋在現在行政院提出的特別條例跟特別預算跟委員報告事實上這個講的都是針對國內的廠商對內嘛"},{"start":8749.696,"end":8768.373,"text":"是對內而已所以那800多億甚至現在擴大到4100億都沒有含過我們的4100億裡面有包含國家韌性國防所以說卓院長所提出的所謂的因應這個Receptacle Tariff目前這個沒有包含是國內的嘛條外商用不到嘛對"},{"start":8769.013,"end":8796.658,"text":"所以你現在手上我盤點了一下你手上唯一的政策工具大概就是信保基金對你也沒有第二個了嘛那我就要請教你信保基金了把第二個好先信保基金你們現在信保基金來協助這一波受影響的台商你們的方案是什麼其實我們信保基金過去到現在一直都是對南向國家的這個保證額度到250萬但事實上呢"},{"start":8797.782,"end":8818.451,"text":"所有的橋台商他們想要帶更多事實上是可以的只是說你超過這個額度以後呢這部分呢就沒有我們來幫你做這個保證可是如果這個橋台商他長期已經有很好的合作銀行事實上他可以帶到更高的額度是不會受影響的我們長期那個林董事長也很久了是就是說"},{"start":8819.761,"end":8845.176,"text":"我們信保基金以往額度就是200到250萬一家公司所以現在我們委員長這邊是公開宣示說你只要在信購好往來互動有點像銀行的概念因為這都是看銀行願不願意你只要往來的信用不錯出入的頻率也不錯250萬額度的上限可能是針對新人對於既有的客戶也許可以更高那有額度的有到哪個程度"},{"start":8847.388,"end":8875.537,"text":"因為是信保我現在不是講有擔保就不用你們了是 報告王委員現在就是說我們當然就是剛剛委員長講的我們的融資的對象就是八成是新南向國家所以這是對等關稅最嚴重的都協助新南向國家為主然後我們現在平均的融資的我們雖然說是兩百萬但是我們現在平均差不多六七十萬美金所以其實大部分就大部分都還有相當的一個空間"},{"start":8876.917,"end":8900.887,"text":"如果70萬美金就200萬250萬那剛才委員長講說未必上限到250可以更高跟委員說明就是說他如果他的這個額度內的這個讓我們信用保證的時候他的手續費也會跟著增加然後他的利率的部分事實上也是他還可以跟他貸款的銀行去談判利率有沒有一些可以有"},{"start":8902.228,"end":8916.22,"text":"差額的部分那事實上我們是只收到250萬的那個上限的手續費那再更多的部分呢那部分我們就不做信用保證我現在盤點的是政策工具250萬以上我不再做信用保證他跟銀行往來累積信用度不錯他可以跟銀行多借坦白講"},{"start":8922.128,"end":8928.755,"text":"不是我們的事啦但是因為我們基金規模只有20億左右而已那句話不是說我們僑委會看你往來不錯我的信保的擔保額度可以超過250 沒辦法沒有沒有沒有我們可以做保證的到250萬美金"},{"start":8943.369,"end":8956.601,"text":"信保基金是一個平台真正錢借出去還是銀行當然信保基金只是說我們有協助一些補貼在利息上的優惠但是有上限就是250萬至於這一家海外的企業它可以借到1000萬借到1億"},{"start":8958.723,"end":8975.596,"text":"坦白說是他信用有夠、資產有夠銀行加價而已嘛那個不叫你的政策工具那個是銀行自己銀行不放貸他拿來賺錢所以他一定要放貸信用可靠的公司才可以回收嘛我這邊要提這一點就是說在我們的政策工具內"},{"start":8977.71,"end":9001.506,"text":"經過這麼多年 兩百到兩百五十萬 主要第一天來的就是這個額度經濟社會變化多少 我們GDP從陳水扁馬英九時代是大概一兆七千億左右到現在我們的GDP都已經到三兆三了我們這個額度還在兩百跟兩百五十萬新南向的商業活動那麼多 我是建議因為這牽涉到錢放出去要收的回來"},{"start":9001.986,"end":9022.174,"text":"委員這個我們基本上都是對中小企業那所以這個250萬美金呢讓他在這個營運擴廠融資上面或者他是新創事業事實上對於這種類型的目前這個額度其實都夠的那你如果是非常大型的公司基本上他們會去如果連帶他大概也不會找你們他不會找我們對沒錯我是建議說我們希望我們的中小企業會成長"},{"start":9028.317,"end":9045.891,"text":"然後我們的僑委會也不要因為他長大了他就自己去找銀行了我是說你們可以去思考我們現在政策工具兩百萬到兩百五十萬的額度可以適度設置有點像像退府會退府軍人我們再增加我們的清新規模我們就可以把上限提高設定第二級"},{"start":9046.591,"end":9061.765,"text":"就是這個往來或者他的行業或者怎麼樣到什麼程度的話他直接到第二級不是大家都可以到第二級的時候我可以幫你擔保額度更高一點所以我是建議讓你的工具更豐富更靈活因為市場在多樣化我們"},{"start":9062.606,"end":9078.305,"text":"事實上委員我們最少是200那250萬就是因應2017年的新南向之後又多了50萬所以不是不可能是有可能但是跟著這個增加的同時就是我們的基金規模必須要增資所以我們這個基金規模要增資的同時要編列預算當然"},{"start":9080.207,"end":9101.173,"text":"對 所以這個也是 這個就是公務部門的政治工具嘛當你做了市場分析評估我們現在投資額度從2017年前的多少到現在投資額已經爬到第二大了而東南亞的4億人口的市場是我們所重視的希望強化政府跟橋外商 橋台商的連結那200萬到250萬額度顯然不足以支應某一些"},{"start":9105.054,"end":9132.735,"text":"案子的時候根據這個你們提出來希望行政院這邊增加基金的規模然後我們也設定一定的條件在特定的行業可以進入到更高一級的這樣子橋委會也成長了我們在橋外的部分的服務也成長了否則一旦離開這個額度就脫離你們的手有點可惜啦因為很多小雞可能養大你們有功勞啊所以我的意思說你們可以去評估一下你們這個政策工具夠不夠好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":9135.224,"end":9148.17,"text":"謝謝王定一委員上台資訊接下來由鍾嘉斌委員上台資訊鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在接下來由徐巧欣委員上台資訊"},{"start":9159.626,"end":9160.728,"text":"謝謝主席我想那個僑委會委員長然後經濟部常務次長跟我們這個國發會副主委那都可以先上台一下"},{"start":9175,"end":9202.378,"text":"我用好好那謝謝我們呢大家都很關心這個貿易戰以及台橋的這個經營的困境那麼呢現在呢這個台幣又過度的升值那對於很多的這些廠商們他們是感覺到非常的擔心因為台灣的出口島上七成而且呢我們的毛利率都非常的低所以在這個升值的情況下面大家都很擔心受到這個影響"},{"start":9203.078,"end":9220.343,"text":"那我想要先問一下委員長我們這幾天有沒有收到僑胞對於台幣升值的一些回饋反應或是擔憂多少都有一些多少都有一些嘛那我們在這個部分的我們有什麼樣的提供他們的解決方式"},{"start":9222.384,"end":9248.506,"text":"昨天看起來這個台幣的升值狀況好像趨於穩定那所以希望他只是一個一時的心理預期的現象那後續的這個幣匯率上面可以持續的保持一個穩定性因為不管他是升值或貶值一定會有某個業別受到嚴重的影響如果他是升值的時候就會對出口導向不利如果是貶值的時候又會對進口導向不利"},{"start":9249.086,"end":9267.658,"text":"這當然但是我們台幣升值的這個幅度那算是史上來說非常大所以影響也特別的大那您剛才有提到說有進行這些座談那目前業者反映的訴求跟困難是什麼那我們的問卷的結果又是什麼呢"},{"start":9268.539,"end":9286.627,"text":"委員這個是這個月五月要開始進行的所以還沒有結果出來因為我們五月是歐洲商會的總會這個就跟那個王定宇委員講的一樣就是大家會擔心太慢因為呢川普他的這個政策呢是這個初一十五跟月亮一樣都不一樣"},{"start":9288.027,"end":9309.275,"text":"委員有點不一樣的地方是因為他們在各個不同國家那各個國家談判速度是不一樣的那我等一下會問各個國家的部分那現在呢要提供這個930億的相關紓困政策那我想要問一下僑委會這邊呢會分到多少的我們在這個紓困政策裡面基本上是沒有列入的沒有列入的因為他這個不是對於國內的廠商的補助"},{"start":9311.756,"end":9320.184,"text":"OK所以呢對於國外的僑胞的部分那我們就沒有在這個930因為那個會視為是外資的一個邏輯那呢再來就是呢我們在這個報告裡面有提到要投資美國隊應該是我看是哪一位的這個報告經濟部嗎還是國發會那呢投資美國隊是要投資多少呢"},{"start":9336.001,"end":9351.341,"text":"你們的預期目前這個部分事實上我們談判的單位現在正在磋商之中磋商之中所以還不知道要投資多少錢不是 這容委員我們是不是給他們一點空間"},{"start":9352.603,"end":9367.874,"text":"OK好那呢我們現在匯率升值之後對美投資還能賺到錢嗎是不是我們在整個我們的出口導向的這些產業裡面當匯率升值之後我們的對美投資能夠獲利的這個幅度會變得更小呢"},{"start":9368.976,"end":9394.856,"text":"匯率跟投資我們除了看短期的狀況之外你投資之後的收入嘛收益的部分它都是要看長期的趨勢跟客戶端的需求我問的問題是說匯率升值之後我們對美投資之後呢那我們賺取的這些收益是否會受到影響那影響的層面如何我們評估的狀況又是如何"},{"start":9395.936,"end":9422.887,"text":"那當然這個角色說未來有一些具體的投資落地的時候這一些我們就要看基本上這個投資的契約是如何去進行相關的分潤不過我們在進行任何一個投資之前第一個一定要確保台灣的這個利益還有確保我們台灣是真正需要而這個的投資對於競爭力是有幫忙那我們現在評估的如何呢"},{"start":9423.666,"end":9433.97,"text":"我們現在我剛剛有說明了可能這個部分是不是要評估到什麼時候啊因為930億裡面當你們要提出來930億裡面完全是協助不管是照顧弱勢穩定民生還有包括支持產業的部分也都沒有針對這個投資美國對呀然後相關的這個對美投資對台灣台灣廠商對美投資的部分"},{"start":9453.397,"end":9482.467,"text":"跟委員報告現在行政院送到立法院這邊來的完全是針對我們國內的資用的部分那再來我們有看到剛才有談到是我們未來要調升海外的生產基地那所以呢我們呢就是希望剛才那個我們徐委員長有講到就是說呢可能要移到這個菲律賓那因為菲律賓呢被收的這個關稅比較少但是呢我想要請教一下就是呢為什麼菲律賓被收的關稅比較少呢"},{"start":9485.94,"end":9495.426,"text":"這個問題不是我們能夠回答因為當然是喔 當然是喔這個川普他們是有一個公式去計算出來的這個對等關稅對等關稅當然是每一個國家跟美國之間的這些談判的關係那步步他一開始是有公式的之後還延長90天基本上他是以貿易逆差"},{"start":9506.294,"end":9509.837,"text":"貿易逆差因為菲律賓與美國的貿易逆差順差並沒有我們對他是順差對我們是逆差在這樣的狀況下因為菲律賓跟美國的貿易投資額都沒有那麼順差逆差那麼落差大"},{"start":9523.13,"end":9542.357,"text":"我要講的事情是我們跟美國的貿易呢是順差但是呢菲律賓跟美國的貿易是逆差所以說呢他的這個關稅被收的比較少但我要強調的事情是如果我們的台商呢我們移到了這個菲律賓然後呢來做很多的這個產業那包含是製造業的話"},{"start":9543.177,"end":9560.466,"text":"提高了菲律賓他的相關的這個跟美國之間的這個順差從逆差轉成順差的時候那他的關稅是不是也可能被提升那在這個部分呢我想我們的政府都要預先的然後去做準備委員因為這個每一年每一年的這個貿易額度是會浮動的"},{"start":9566.369,"end":9583.334,"text":"當然我講的是一個具體的概念就是說川普他在當時他列出了這個公式表的時候就是以國家的順差逆差他來作為一個公式那因為菲律賓跟美國之間的這個貿易他們也是順差所以才會是17%如果是逆差的話就是18%不是17%"},{"start":9589.276,"end":9603.327,"text":"對那因為呢這個柬埔寨它相關的這個關稅呢是比較少受是因為他們的跟美國之間的這個賺的這個錢我的了解好像有一個島只有企鵝跟那個海豹好像也是要付稅"},{"start":9605.043,"end":9625.92,"text":"好像也有十幾%十%那但是都是沒有十%是本來的基本關稅嘛好那我要講的事情是說呢剛才大家講的這個海外信保基金的這個投資狀況那麼呢我們看到信保基金呢有具體的措施協助台商呢僑台商能夠降低經營成本"},{"start":9626.32,"end":9641.097,"text":"不只是依賴政府的補助那你們提到的這個性保基金裡面那很多年都被指出說回銷的回收的這個成效很差那呢這個是立法院中預算中心提到的那去年"},{"start":9641.657,"end":9665.715,"text":"7月底海外信保基金累积带位清偿是386件那含本金利息跟诉讼费用在里面呢原始的带位清偿金额是5003万美元全数回收者是31件回收是232万美元比例非常的低也就是呢有355件是没有全部收回的"},{"start":9666.135,"end":9686.6,"text":"那代位清場的金額有到高達4700萬的這個美元那我們只回收呢這個相對少很多啦我們在圖上都有寫我就不一一贅述了那我們目前有什麼樣的方案能夠增加收回的經濟措施嗎委員跟委員說明早期因為那個"},{"start":9689.241,"end":9704.562,"text":"這個代位清償的我們是永久代位清償大概是全國內的唯一一個基金這樣做的因為基本上大部分的金融機構都只會20年就是一個底線他就會把他打成白帳或壞帳"},{"start":9705.803,"end":9716.23,"text":"那我們信保基金是永遠追償那在這個過程當中早期因為有一個制度其實他那個賬都不多幾萬塊幾萬塊而已主要是那時候貸給僑生那僑生因為受到一些詐騙集團的人或者是那個有點是仲介的欺騙所以他們來貸了以後八萬十萬然後就沒有還就走了所以早期很多案件是因為這樣真正是企業廠商的貸款而這個倒債的比例"},{"start":9735.243,"end":9747.229,"text":"可是這個金額蠻高的耶有這麼多人來借是不是啊我請董事長跟您說明一下這個金額是非常高而且立法院的預算中心也認為這個事情是必須要檢討的跟委員報告我們海瑞信訪基金的貸償率是1.42%也就是說我們保證100塊的話那貸償的比例是1.42塊"},{"start":9760.196,"end":9768.575,"text":"那我問一下喔所以我們的比率是相對還是我問一下喔我們尚未收回代償金額的比率有幾成"},{"start":9770.517,"end":9795.847,"text":"對 這個部分是因為我們在海外因為各國的法律的不一樣我就問一個問題很清楚就是我們尚未回收貸償金額的比率我們回收的比率差不多將近18%所以就是差不多82%是沒有辦法回收不過我跟委員報告就是說我們這個部分就像剛剛委員長我們一直盡力都在做我們除了這個債權的銀行他們要負責來處理這個事情之外"},{"start":9799.768,"end":9828.696,"text":"你刚刚讲的这个上面跟我们数字写的就不太一样啊你刚刚说收回收多少回收是17.69%那你看一下这张图好不好你看这个所以是没有回收的话是差不多82%那你刚刚跟我说十几趴你上面写的是80%那个是指回收的我刚刚问你的就是回收的部分我先说这个部分再说"},{"start":9829.116,"end":9851.049,"text":"對嘛那如果我沒有追問的話你就沒有告訴我啊所以這個80%八成的部分我們沒有回收代償金額的比率超過八成這個是需要檢討的所以那個徐家信委員長因為我時間不夠了所以我們在海外性保基金的這個回收情況是非常有必要來檢討的委員這個在我接"},{"start":9851.969,"end":9866.825,"text":"委員長之前就已經長這樣然後這幾年都沒有增加我們已經把它做的控制的很好就是沒有再有呆帳在我的任內發生了但是應該要追討的部分呢我們還是要盡力嘛那不然的話但是終身有效一旦他的戶頭有錢或者他的資產有錢我們馬上就會去把他追討"},{"start":9871.971,"end":9886.005,"text":"不然這麼高的一個81.63左右的這個數字是讓大家會覺得這非常荒謬所以呢那就麻煩這個我們委員長繼續做努力好了會 我們會持續努力 謝謝謝謝謝曉欣委員上台執行接下來有葉延芝委員上台執行"},{"start":9906.137,"end":9907.38,"text":"主席好 馬上請找經濟部常務次長"},{"start":9916.983,"end":9936.974,"text":"委員好市長好那個最近大家都在關心說現在匯率台幣升值到很快那之前政府曾經有編列一個4100億的特別預算然後匡列了930億是針對川普的關稅政策對於產業影響的一些因應作為嘛我想問一下930億當初在評估的時候是純粹針對關稅"},{"start":9942.497,"end":9945.342,"text":"還是有沒有把可能廠商的賄損的損失把它評估進來所編列的預算"},{"start":9948.71,"end":9971.103,"text":"我們這裡面剛剛委員所說的我們包括對於中小微企業包括他調度的這個需求裡面其實我們已經有涵蓋在裡面了我說賄損的部分因為這個所謂他所謂的調度的需求資金調度的需求原因非常多種但我們不會去列舉說他完全是因為賄損因為你如果說純粹針對關稅"},{"start":9974.925,"end":10003.145,"text":"是一回事然後另外匯損又是另外一回事因為有一些廠商他出口過去他要報價報價完之後忽然發現台幣升值他賣出去之後換回台幣他就虧了所以評估的方式不一樣要很精準而不是說隨便匡列一個就看你們需要多少所以你有把所以市長是有把匯損這塊列進來有嗎我們基本上特別的條例是針對對等關稅影響之下"},{"start":10003.965,"end":10017.047,"text":"各項的產業需求對這邊包括廠商的資金的調度資金調度所以有針對我剛剛講的部分嗎還有包括財政的支持的部分財政支持所以是有那我想問一下"},{"start":10018.963,"end":10042.111,"text":"事先經濟部在評估這件事情的時候有想到可能我們台幣會升值到這麼快嗎事先我們有跟廠商進行包括部內非常多的座談但廠商會知道說其實為了那個經濟分析的那個scenario有考慮這件事情經濟部有沒有得到消息就是說美國可能會希望我們升息會嗎"},{"start":10043.24,"end":10070.628,"text":"因為我昨天看那個韓國的央行的負責人都已經出來講他說美國可能會希望亞洲貨幣升值那你們進一步有沒有得到這個消息然後去做一些產業的評估有嗎禮拜一的時候針對於費率包括央行的總裁包括總統都已經發表了談話那這個部分沒有沒有我不在講談話我說事先有得到這個消息所以做出因應之道然後去做評估不是 這個是一個"},{"start":10072.352,"end":10096.843,"text":"像昨天他的這個升值的幅度就稍微的收斂那所以基本上他這個現象我們怎麼我們既然不是說所謂的費率的操縱國家我怎麼會事先會去知道這個消息啊也不會啊那個韓國的他們就說美國希望有這個壓力啊所以我都問說你們有沒有嘛人家就可以知道我們就不知道"},{"start":10097.953,"end":10110.427,"text":"當然是可以知道不然別人為什麼會知道我們國家央行在進行它所謂的匯率因為央行匯率的匯率它為什麼要做調節它做調節的目的是不希望我們產業忽然間受到很大的衝擊所以這個跟經濟部業務也會相關"},{"start":10114.366,"end":10128.97,"text":"所以怎麼會講的跟經濟部都好像跟你們都沒關係一樣呢那這樣子政府怎麼會給外界信心表示說我們可以來面對國際不管是經濟或是貨幣的變化所造成的衝擊呢好 沒關係 次長我再跟你請教別的問題因為"},{"start":10130.851,"end":10155.143,"text":"昨天媒體很關注就是部長 郭志偉部長他在請AIT吃飯或是在宴客的時候在自家公司嘛那後來經濟部是有澄清說沒有圖利問題因為所有的錢都是郭部長自掏腰包自掏腰包應該就是用他個人的錢拿出來付嘛那想問次長在跟AIT吃飯那一場你本人有在現場嗎沒有你沒有去喔"},{"start":10155.723,"end":10181.65,"text":"那我想問喔經濟部是不是請客吃飯通常都是部長出錢都自己出錢我們部長他從企業家投入到公職他確實犧牲了很多包括他很多的對於回答我問你這不用公務員部長我現在只是想要了解說那是不是自從部長你也是剛到經濟部嘛"},{"start":10182.574,"end":10198.751,"text":"到今後多久我一直在經濟部的三級機關三十幾年一直在經濟部的三級機關我是說現在到長治多久我從三月多所以在跟郭部長接觸的過程當中是不是只要經濟部驗客都是他自己自掏腰包"},{"start":10200.181,"end":10225.091,"text":"這個我並不清楚那為什麼這一場就是請AIT吃飯因為他的邀請函發出去基本上部長經常他自己掏腰包來請我們的同仁甚至是買禮物犒賞同仁是一回事那犒賞同仁也有可能用課資費啦我現在問的是為什麼用經濟部的邀請函發出去邀請AIT來吃飯明明就是經濟部的活動"},{"start":10225.791,"end":10247.432,"text":"但部長要自掏腰包是為什麼這個是經濟部的慣例嗎還是怎麼樣並沒有那為什麼只有這幾場是他自掏腰包並不是說因為他那幾場郭部長進入到經濟部以來他一直是拿他自己包括在外面所包括他自己的這個資產的部分"},{"start":10250.69,"end":10265.128,"text":"這讓人家很怪嘛而且你會讓其他的部長覺得說 哇 原來經濟部長這麼大方這個明明就應該要公帑的費用是經濟部發的邀請函 宴請AIT原來是要部長"},{"start":10265.949,"end":10290.708,"text":"自掏腰包而且二十幾萬欸不是他是一個企業家所以企業要自己出錢這很奇怪他非常的慷慨而且非常的真誠他做任何的事情絕對不會虛偽造假我沒有說他虛偽造假你為什麼要好像忽然間提到這個我只是在講這個機制問題因為大家覺得怪啊明明就是政府的宴會那為什麼部長自己出錢"},{"start":10292.029,"end":10311.707,"text":"所以我想問說這是經濟部的慣例還是有什麼特殊狀況昨天連那個卓院長都說要查了嘛不知道說那個現在查的狀況怎樣可能你這個也給卓院長很大的壓力超越我的理解範圍超過你的理解範圍對好 謝謝"},{"start":10316.643,"end":10339.963,"text":"謝謝葉研師上台執行以上已登記執行委員除不在場外 均已發言完畢報告及詢答的結束本日會議由陳永康委員 林益晶委員 馬文晶委員提出書面執行請列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":10341.184,"end":10357.879,"text":"委員書面期口頭執行為期答覆部分或要求補充資料者請相關單位已書面於兩週內答覆委員另約定期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束 散會"}]}},{"id":"161012","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161012","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e06b3b5f7fa72bdb88c04869f6baa92091d3464f2517af749f0456854e6ed04a8475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:10:54 - 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他的里裡面每一個在敲門請你連署有沒有違反相關的法令尤其是社會秩序違反法"},{"start":215.646,"end":223.428,"text":"我就問你可以不可以嗎這個要看他具體的狀況有牽扯機關我已經跟你講夠具體的那由牽扯機關來認定選務機關牽扯機關是誰這個至少他可能牽涉到的會不會違反了社會秩序維護法如果是違反社會法的話那就是檢察機關了檢察機關起地這個因為有人就跟我告訴我我數字都有我只是想說到底要找誰我都不知道找誰"},{"start":246.26,"end":267.483,"text":"我都不知道找誰啊 他就一家一家按電鈴一家一家按電鈴請問你里長可以介入這次罷免嗎里長可以嗎公務員可不可以公務員要秉持行政中立對 公務員不可以啊 里長可不可以里長可不可以 請問你你告訴我里長他怎麼樣 可不可以"},{"start":269.611,"end":297.287,"text":"介入 到底是如何介入啊請人家連署罷免或者請人家告訴人家不要罷免這個東西里長可不可以介入他不要動用到這個公家的資源不要動用到他里長的身份的話應該是沒有這個他才來就是里長啊他怎麼樣就是里長啊人家之所以理他就是因為他里長啊不然的話任何人張三理事開門他怎麼開門呢晚上怎麼開門呢"},{"start":299.568,"end":305.798,"text":"就里長來跟你哭哭哭 欸我是里長啊 請問一下喔 你來來來來看一下喔 兩組來跟他唸一下喔整個里長一站一站哀呼耶 里長這樣做耶然後中選會都沒事情耶 地方選委會都沒事情耶"},{"start":316.394,"end":337.224,"text":"不是說他沒關係,這不歸中選會管嘛對不對,這跟警察講,這不是說中選會管,這是他的中選會啊跟警察講,警察說是中選會委員德高望重,這資深的委員應該知道他的權責怎麼劃分的另外啊,其實有很多人被抄了不知道"},{"start":338.59,"end":358.764,"text":"所以呢地方議會就希望說我提高那種發信的比例即便一個比如說台北市來講五個被罷了立委一個算五份好不好就叫二十幾萬二十幾萬人一戶充二十塊錢好了油資來回叫幾百萬都負擔得起啊為什麼因為已經發信了"},{"start":360.485,"end":369.649,"text":"徐曉新議員都已經揭露了今天他的名字被抄了明天詐騙集團就來了詐騙集團就來了告訴你什麼地方可以借錢啊來啦他想說奇怪我個資我個資因為他被抄啦被插上去啦被人抄去也去賭賭了就不好就都不好啊現在來講藍軍高樓都不理啊可能是這樣啦台灣這個社會可能在這裡啦"},{"start":388.817,"end":414.944,"text":"你知道嗎?我們那些狗,都有狗啦!找警察都不理啦!很可憐啦!現在整個來講,我們台灣的政治,其實罷免就罷免的尊重事實上我們就看得到,今天的成案這麼多,要不是第二階段,民進黨強力介入,都有誇大喔!我的山谷裡面,三海民進黨的議員,目前的三千分以上,高來!有要高五千分!高來!都這樣!"},{"start":418.431,"end":437.824,"text":"都這樣教沒有民進黨的支持我告訴你通過第二階的十個人都不到我跟你講我們依法查對啦所以他怎麼來只要是合法來的都可以所以我就跟你講是說當地方的包括台北市議院民進黨喔簡淑培議員喔在電視看得到嗎"},{"start":439.232,"end":451.216,"text":"他都要求蔣萬安市長應該提高罰金的比例民進黨議員要求國民黨的市長做這個事情結果你是不可疑終選會認為說這樣子的做法是與法無據的"},{"start":455.868,"end":464.49,"text":"沒有啦,你們那個不是法律,那個是行政指導,帶動你那個位階很低啊,那不是法律啊不是行政指導,不是行政指導,行政指導啊我們規定的,而且規定的也含糊,你們說又有抄襲之嫌,又有重複之嫌我每天看到都有重複,我每天都有重複,很主觀的啊"},{"start":479.373,"end":506.213,"text":"所以我是覺得你不被限制壓制的價值這個是極端化啦我們的公務員他不會如此的做法每一個人都要負起責任的負起責任的又不是說查對了然後你把它封起來不會再去被檢驗可能會被檢驗請問你現在打字也可以啊可以對啊打字可以怎麼打字名字不可以打字名字不可以打字名字印章也可以啊印章也可以啊"},{"start":508.194,"end":516.642,"text":"印章不能偷刻的啊對啊那你怎麼知道偷刻所以你印章可以當裡面打字都是用打字的他怎麼會刻出來這個這兩個一樣打字當然都一樣啊你怎麼區別所以這個"},{"start":521.03,"end":544.24,"text":"太多漏洞了太多你們的主觀的權利太大了中選會不應該有這麼大的權利而且你那個底下是行政之道現在我就跟你講因為被抄的被抄之後他的個資外洩產生了很嚴重的後果詐騙集團已經倒上架來了我現在跟你講的是有時有據的我們找了警察去農博站"},{"start":545.32,"end":571.887,"text":"即便我這麼自身立委一都不差因為你們在當家他不敢得罪你啊我們中選會一再的強調所謂的查對是由地方政府的互證機關跟地方選委會我們的人員他們分別來查對整合之後才送中央不是中央直接去查對所以這個可以跟我說嗎"},{"start":573.908,"end":576.472,"text":"我剛剛講說連地方的議員都說拜託你們多記一點因為這個有個資外洩的問題很嚴重你們不同意啊"},{"start":583.12,"end":603.792,"text":"不是 這個不合法嘛 怎麼同意呢怎麼會沒有規定呢即使是行政規定 也是法律授權 也是法律授權的那個是位階很低很低很低的啦真的位階非常低的啦 不要唬人家啦 不要唬人家啦"},{"start":606.093,"end":631.718,"text":"不要為了這個防堵一些這個可能發生的危險而去妨礙絕大多數人行使他的權利已經發生了你這樣子講你全部都發你去妨礙多少人行使他權利都發財知道我個資有沒有被盜個資被盜我的還有最後一個我請問你現在為什麼有些人開始監訊收到了說請他去領署那不是個資被盜嗎"},{"start":637.678,"end":644.969,"text":"我的電話裡面就我的簡訊就有人傳來了啊你有沒有去連署啊 我要報名稅啊有沒有連署啊"},{"start":646.698,"end":667.123,"text":"這不是各自被盜嗎我們選務機關不會把這個資料去外洩的我們選務機關不會外洩的我覺得你們太多事情了如果有的話 如果有的話 歡迎委員能夠提供我們主動來查 主動來移送我們對你是一點希望都沒有的因為你的歷史太騙人了不然你再來問"},{"start":670.663,"end":673.245,"text":"你沒有信任我,你又來問我我問你都答對了,我問你都答對了,什麼都不可以鐵板一塊,綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠綠�"}]}},{"id":"16652","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16652","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcbec65557fcf0aacb29fb70b9de5aca0414bfadd538e1bbbf9de927d59314b5815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-07T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心指揮官、內政部警政署署長、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「臺灣遭聯合國警示為東亞、東南亞跨國詐欺集團據點之檢討與防範，及打詐四法與相關子法施行後之具體成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【5月5日及7日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-07","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-07T08:30:42+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-07T12:21:00+08:00","duration":13818,"影片長度":"03:50:18","委員發言時間":"08:30:42 - 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業經大院三讀通過"},{"start":2005.917,"end":2035.257,"text":"总统于113年7月31号公布为了配合新制施行本院办理下列的业务第一点本院召开了三次咨询会议收集实物现行侦查工具需求的情况还有各机关内部作业规范在114年1月14号发布了刑事诉讼特殊强制处分执行办法并召开研讨会"},{"start":2036.301,"end":2037.93,"text":"工作省减变"},{"start":2039.266,"end":2066.606,"text":"法律適用的參考第二點本院在法院的審判系統呢新增了特殊強制處分的案由字別及許可書等立稿供各法院辦案參考並持續規劃建置專用系統第三自113年8月到114年3月間呢各地方法院辦理特殊強制處分的案件呢"},{"start":2067.126,"end":2082.86,"text":"新收總共898件終結760件其中裁定准許的有580件准許率達到近八成那對東亞東南亞跨國詐欺集團追查還有犯罪"},{"start":2084.382,"end":2112.259,"text":"詐欺犯罪行為的防制呢和國際司法互助相關依據國際刑事司法互助法的規定現行有關司法互助的事項呢它是以外交部或者是法務部為聯繫窗口法院辦理跨國詐欺集團案件如果有調查取證的必要會依該法第30條規定檢附請求書跟相關文件經法務部轉請外交部辦理"},{"start":2113.24,"end":2133.221,"text":"打在司法施行之後呢本院持續透過宣導及教育訓練方式強化法官審理事類案件的賠例以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝各位好謝謝我們下一位請法務部鄭明謙部長報告"},{"start":2139.028,"end":2168.24,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 先生 各位媒體 大家早安今天奉邀列席 貴委員會做列席專欄的一個列席報告並被質詢自就報告如下 請您指教本部身為打詐國家對懲詐面向的主宰機關持續督導抬高建築 帶領檢警調機關結合其他打詐國家對成員以嚴懲詐欺犯罪集團打擊跨境詐欺犯罪及落實犯罪被害人保護為三大重點"},{"start":2171.434,"end":2191.525,"text":"那溯源追查核心主案嚴懲詐欺的犯罪集團那懲詐的具體作為本部持續督導抬高監規劃專案加強查緝再加上地檢署同步制止指揮專案行動藉由中央地方共同合作同步掃蕩詐欺犯罪採取聯合跨部會查緝欺欺欺詐欺"},{"start":2194.046,"end":2208.947,"text":"模式二嚴懲重罰詐欺犯罪具體求刑並適時提起上訴強制納管並加強查緝虛擬資產及第三方支付詐欺等懲詐的具體作為那懲詐的具體的成效"},{"start":2213.275,"end":2226,"text":"請參閱書面報告那回顧一三年的執法成效相較於一二年不論是查或詐欺集團數被告人數及羈押人數皆有大幅成長那抬高檢數統合執法機關近一四年第一波的懲詐"},{"start":2227.921,"end":2254.639,"text":"查獲的含起訴三千一百八十件四二四五二四人這個是含車所二九八六人那羈押六百六十三人成效亮眼特別是台北地監署查獲詐騙金額一百五十七億餘元被害人五千零八十人起訴被告八十人新署及台中等各地監署瓦解幫派組織所主導的詐欺犯罪集團相較查緝數據請查內書面報告"},{"start":2259.161,"end":2280.019,"text":"因應詐欺犯罪持續朝國際化發展本部積極洽簽國際司法互助合作目前也簽署民行司法互助條約協定及備忘錄請參列書面包圍因東南亞詐欺熱區深化國際合作打擊黑幫及集黨犯罪建構跨部會打擊跨境詐欺平台"},{"start":2281.134,"end":2303.546,"text":"同省政府間懲詐政策及資源強化打擊跨境的詐欺的一個犯罪那本部加強查過犯罪所得偵查中變價拍賣偵查及審判中調和解等三面向提高罪障房的比例若是被犯罪被害人的一個保護相關具體成效再查過不法所得變價"},{"start":2304.546,"end":2325.922,"text":"拍賣及防法犯罪所的GO具體成長那本部將在行政院的帶領下督導抬高檢署善用打詐事法配合打詐綱領2.0持續團結打詐組織提升打詐策略進行打詐業務擴大查緝面向加大查緝力道遏止查緝犯罪以上報告敬請指教"},{"start":2333.677,"end":2354.087,"text":"好那請問其餘機關有沒有要做口頭報補充沒有好謝謝各位那結論代表報告完畢那相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄我們現在開始進行詢答那本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長"},{"start":2361.321,"end":2379.262,"text":"那我們現在開始進行詢問我們首先請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席 有請法務部部長麻煩部長"},{"start":2387.359,"end":2412.162,"text":"委員長部長早今天召委針對有關於聯合國事業的時候所出的調查報告排了這一個專案我看了法務部的報告我必須要說跟我看完聯合國的報告兩者之間有嚴重的斷裂感"},{"start":2413.544,"end":2438.24,"text":"為什麼我說兩者之間有嚴重的斷裂感因為在聯合國的報告當中所呈現出來的一些關鍵的問題在法務部的報告當中我都沒有看到一些適度的回應所以我一開始一個最基本的問題是法務部在準備今天的專案報告以前這份聯合國的報告看過嗎這個有"},{"start":2443.292,"end":2455.121,"text":"這邊聯合國的報告看過嗎有這部分我有看過你有看過嗎部長看完這個報告以後覺得這個報告有沒有問題"},{"start":2457.383,"end":2472.627,"text":"這部分的確是有提到就是有四個案例是跟台灣有關那裡面我們有就試圖的去做一個了解一個了解這裡面有四個案就第一個是一個部長我們一個一個來好了這樣子問題的層次會比較清楚"},{"start":2479.766,"end":2505.689,"text":"這個聯合國出這份報告的單位應該是打擊毒品跟犯罪的辦公室嘛是我們國家跟這個辦公室有聯繫過嗎有任何的互動交流嗎這個我們沒有這個從來沒有任何互動交流有嗎這個要有警政署因為法務部這要看警政署有沒有在請警政署有跟他們互動過嗎"},{"start":2507.23,"end":2534.173,"text":"沒有嘛 剛剛署長在下面說沒有嘛因為我們一個一個來啦我老實說啦身為一個台灣人我看完聯合國的這份報告以後我心情很難過台灣怎麼會被聯合國的報告描述成一個這樣的地方我為什麼說我心情很難過啊我一個一個代部長看來在這個聯合國的報告當中啊對於台灣"},{"start":2535.54,"end":2547.244,"text":"他是怎麼標示的來請部長看右下角這個地圖這個報告你看過你應該熟啊他後面寫個台灣後面寫POC POC是什麼這個這個這個這個我我我對這個我沒有去注意到這個POC的這個"},{"start":2562.157,"end":2589.966,"text":"部長你不是說你看過報告嗎我看過就是最主要的是因為我們有做一個來來來我再往下看你說你地圖沒看沒有關係來看一下內文右上角BG1是一個被他所沒有點名的集團他那個集團來你看右上角他說這是在二十幾年前在台灣POC所設立的"},{"start":2591.036,"end":2611.403,"text":"部長看到這個POC的時候不會覺得很奇怪嗎?這POC指的是什麼?很抱歉我是看那個翻譯的你是看翻譯的?那部裡面的同仁他怎麼翻譯給你的?台灣POC他怎麼翻的?"},{"start":2617.984,"end":2624.51,"text":"布長你跟我說你看過,你看翻譯本沒有關係,我好奇的是布裡面的統人,台灣POC是怎麼翻給你看的?"},{"start":2626.374,"end":2654.68,"text":"這我想這個委員吼我會在這個我有看過整個一個一個整個要職吼這個裡面就是說他這跟台灣有關其實他講這四個案例這個四個案例就是說他比如說他那個負責人他那個一個一個一個部長啊對不起我還是打斷一下啦我們一個城市一個城市的問題啦我想我們不要再去談這個POC喔POC他對我們中華民國是一個是一個不禮貌的一個稱呼啦"},{"start":2655.02,"end":2674.19,"text":"那所以部長你顯然知道POC是什麼嗎?這個我想這個委員你是何必在這邊問我齁那我想奇怪我在這邊問你這個問題有很過分嗎?對你要問的不是這樣問說我們跟台灣就是我們國家這四個案例最主要是四個案例不是啊剛剛部長你說我不必要在這邊問你但"},{"start":2676.239,"end":2698.572,"text":"這個牽涉到台灣的國歌啊這個聯合國它這裡面的一個寫法本來就是對台灣是不友善的是非常好你說得非常好嘛所以部長你明明就知道POC是什麼這個我才說台灣跟這個辦公室是不是有任何的互動當出現這樣子的國家報告對台灣不友善的時候別人對我們不友善我們自己要有立場嘛"},{"start":2699.392,"end":2715.66,"text":"其實我要講的就是這一句話啦這個就是我們是標示我們是中華民國嘛是啊那他顯然就不是這樣標示嘛這個我想這個委員都清楚我想這個不禮貌的這個對台灣很不友善的一個稱呼那我想這部分"},{"start":2717.053,"end":2742.203,"text":"所以我們就這部分的我們就來研究說這部分到底裡面到底四個案例嘛那我們有看過這四個案例委員大概也應該也看過嘛這個是案例就是說他的負責人或者是說那些跟台灣以前有二十幾年就以前有關這裡面我們很注意看這裡面到底有沒有人名有沒有公司的名稱有沒有查證的方向這個對我們來講我們是很有興趣去做一個瞭解啦"},{"start":2742.403,"end":2767.194,"text":"所以到目前為止了解的狀況怎麼樣我現在就一個問題一個問題來啦剛第一個我其實要跟部長講的是說啊聯合國這樣標示我們任何台灣人看了都會不高興嗎其實我只是要make一個point我們的政府要有反應如此而已第二個部分就剛剛啊部長說要去了解這個business group one他們所標示的"},{"start":2768.234,"end":2792.067,"text":"BG-1指的是哪一個集團?現在法務不了解的狀況如何?有辦法特定是哪一個集團嗎?他這個因為他這個沒辦法去查證去查證因為他是有提到聯合國出的報告沒有辦法查證那問題大了他這個20多年前在台灣成立嘛那也移到中南亞或其他國家"},{"start":2793.345,"end":2820.379,"text":"我國只是早期的註冊來 看一下 副部長 請你看一下我為什麼要把原文標出來你看一下右下角的你看右上角沒錯啊 它是二十幾年前在台灣成立的嘛一個非常線上非常大的博弈集團嘛線上非常大的博弈集團從台灣出發然後擴展到東南亞各國 這個是右上角那一段講的嘛"},{"start":2821.567,"end":2835.712,"text":"我有興趣的是右下角的那一段右下角的那一段說這個集團到目前為止包括在台灣還設立了非常多的紙上公司在從事非法的活動"},{"start":2836.872,"end":2853.172,"text":"今天我們看一個聯合國的報告第一個如果這個聯合國的報告寫得不實那我們應該要有國家的態度嘛第二個如果這個聯合國的報告寫出了我們自己的檢調沒有掌握的部分那我們就應該要去了解嘛"},{"start":2853.952,"end":2872.998,"text":"這個才是實事求是的方法嘛所以第三個我要問的事情是說他說BG1的這個集團在目前在台灣還設有很多紙上公司這件事情法務部我們的檢調或者是行政院打詐中心還是警政署有進行任何了解嗎"},{"start":2874.879,"end":2900.515,"text":"這個裡面有提到就是有些集團上海集團就是跟以台灣為基地的三合會那這部分那個那個是下一頁啦請你針對一個一個問題回答嘛你講的這些都是什麼這都是沒有具體的一個所以你認為這個聯合國的報告沒有具體的內容嗎沒有具體的一個一個人名公司名嘛那當然所以無從追查嗎"},{"start":2901.235,"end":2906.02,"text":"聯合國這份報告的品質顯然大有問題嘛按照部長你今天的態度基本上就是這個樣子嘛這個我們會請那個調查局來持續今天調查局有來嗎來請調查局"},{"start":2923.888,"end":2934.956,"text":"部長看起來不是很熟啦局長應該比較熟啊他右下角所講的說在台灣還有一些紙上公司調查局有去了解嗎我們現在正在試圖要去了解當中需要多久"},{"start":2936.77,"end":2962.419,"text":"呃...我這個我不敢給委員一個很明確的...我...我這樣說好了啦我會認真的...認真的去...今天...沒有關係啦你...你齁可以繼續講形容詞這個我都尊重啦我只想跟法務部跟調查局講一個共同的概念任何看完這一份聯合國調查報告的人會覺得你們今天所提出來的書面報告沒有回應到它裡面所指出來的問題"},{"start":2963.855,"end":2985.509,"text":"第一個任何看完這份報告的人會覺得你們今天所提出來的報告沒有回應到他的問題那當然我這樣的評價對還是不對所有的人大家都有眼睛都可以去閱讀都可以去思考有人會說看完了以後如果我講的不對那我自然而然會受到社會輿論的指責嗎"},{"start":2987.764,"end":3015.818,"text":"說黃國昌你胡說八道我們法務部的報告我們調查局的報告對聯合國的這份報告其實做了非常充分的回應有人或許會有這樣的想法我不知道但我負責任的講我看完這份報告了以後我必須要說不管是法務部的報告還是聯合還是調查局今天提出來的報告其實都沒有在回應講不及格三個字啊或許太沉重了來第二個問題"},{"start":3017.179,"end":3041.166,"text":"BG-1它上面提到跟台灣黑道目前的合作關係這個合作關係調查局有去了解嗎我們現在都是這個報告對我們來說其實都很新我們之前確實是沒有去注意到這一份報告這個報告什麼時候出版的4月的時候4月嘛所以 昭緯其實"},{"start":3043.769,"end":3061.745,"text":"也蠻有眼光的啊挑了一份你們之前沒有注意到的報告提醒你們注意這份報告是在上次委員會的時候好像是王宏威委員他第一次提出我們才注意到有這份報告我們必須要很誠實的說那我們也馬上去找到這份報告來看"},{"start":3063.226,"end":3081.147,"text":"那報告的內容其實他聯合國他也有一個很明確的說法說這個是他的員工還有就是說他聯合國也沒有經過證實這一整個報告的內容但是我們還是很重視等一下局長我去建議你啦你的意思是說聯合國出了這個報告"},{"start":3082.108,"end":3108.046,"text":"但他沒有確認這個報告的內容 這個事情很大條是在他報告裡面寫的 我們都看過了但是我們對他報告的內容所指出跟我們台灣有關的部分我們仍然相當相當的重視OK 沒關係啦 之前沒有注意到嘛因為委員的質詢讓你們注意到嘛我們很謝謝委員 謝謝那現在開始要去追蹤啦 我們拭目以待啦給你們一點時間啦 讓你們有時間去注意到"},{"start":3109.264,"end":3133.216,"text":"因為包括了裡面這個Red Dragon到底指的是哪一個幫派以及接下來在這個聯合國的報告下面台灣的國際形象我必須要說啦對台灣的國際形象傷害蠻大的如果裡面的報告有不實的部分那就希望法務部跟調查局發一個正式的聲明嚴正"},{"start":3134.127,"end":3162.35,"text":"的駁斥那如果裡面有報告是你們該知道卻沒有知道的事情有這個情資啊就進一步繼續啊往下追因為針對有關於來台灣這一邊啊設立不管是詐騙集團洗錢的網絡利用金融科技當作名義成立的公司啊事實上事實上在報告裡面甚至連公司的名字你真的要去找的話其實是找得出來的"},{"start":3162.99,"end":3186.683,"text":"其實是找得出來在台灣設立了好幾年到去年的時候10月才突然宣布停業但沒有關係法務部也好調查局也好說上個月之前沒有注意到最近注意到這個報告願意去收集是好事最後的時間我只想請問一下法務部我們吹哨者保護法如期上路準備好了沒有"},{"start":3187.983,"end":3210.476,"text":"這不有廉政署在準備執法的一個釘釘吹哨者保護法是為了保護吹哨人嗎如果今天吹哨者向廉政署去檢舉的話廉政署應該揭露吹哨者的身份嗎這個吹哨者身份是要保密的啊這個吹哨者身份是要保護的嗎好來 請部長看一下"},{"start":3213.22,"end":3233.468,"text":"民眾向廉政署檢舉說請政署有人扶抱加班費那剛剛部長回答了我第一個問題廉政署不應該洩漏檢舉員的身份給原單位這個基本的原則沒有問題嗎這個檢舉的 如果說檢舉原單位當然是不應該去是嗎 是不適合去"},{"start":3241.64,"end":3267.657,"text":"那個不是不適合 根本就不應該嘛剛剛你回答的答案就很標準嘛 來請部長回去瞭解結果 廉政署處理的方式是直接叫內政部警政署保安警察第二大隊第二總隊第一大隊直接回函給檢舉員直接告訴警政署"},{"start":3268.854,"end":3295.399,"text":"保安警察隊到底是誰檢舉的啊?這個是現在廉政署處理事情的SOP嗎?那個公文的字號114年3月19號保二一督制地114001942號函廉政署轉給保二直接請保二回函給檢舉人我現在就看不懂了"},{"start":3296.618,"end":3312.218,"text":"因為有人來跟我投訴啊跟廉政署檢舉結果廉政署處理的方法是叫寶二回函給檢舉人那不就讓寶二知道是誰檢舉的嗎這個是目前廉政署處理的SOP嗎這個是不是屬於"},{"start":3313.874,"end":3339.102,"text":"接避者保護法裡面的檢舉齁這個我不清楚齁這要做一個個案齁那這一件所以你的意思是什麼這一件事不是我不清楚齁那沒有關係你不清楚我給你時間了解部長一個禮拜之內回覆好不好可以嗎這個這個是不是我們再請那個那個廉政署來是啊廉政署不是在法務部轄下嗎我有理解錯誤嗎"},{"start":3340.686,"end":3368.164,"text":"所以我這個事情問法務部部長很過分嗎我給法務部一個禮拜的時間回去了解清楚廉政署可以這樣幹嗎這樣時間還不夠這樣時間還不夠充分嗎這個是不是一個月一個月這麼簡單的事情要一個月喔這個還要公文王牌還要算 因為這個已經到那個警政署沒關係啊 看多少時間啊我讓召委才是這麼簡單的事情要一個月好 謝謝那我們盡快啊"},{"start":3374.946,"end":3392.334,"text":"請教部長可以加快速度嗎那我們就半個月兩個禮拜黃委員部長說兩週給你好那再麻煩部長謝謝部長那我們現在補充宣告上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們接著請王逸川委員發言"},{"start":3405.133,"end":3432.302,"text":"主席我們請這個打造中心的指揮官跟警政署署長麻煩署長還有打造中心指揮官好請問一下這個打造中心具體的工作內容是什麼跟委員報告因為我們是行政院的幕僚協調單位"},{"start":3434.099,"end":3463.253,"text":"所以我們最主要的工作是各部會有關打仗相關的工作那如果有跨部會的協調的一個需要的話我們會配合行政院的政委然後來跟各部會協調而且管控我們在打仗綱領2.0裡面所有的工作指標好你們在報告裡頭寫到說第三方支付業者電商跟線上遊戲業者啊必須善盡善良管理人的責任對不對"},{"start":3464.31,"end":3483.303,"text":"這部分的成效怎麼樣?我們現在在這個部分的話是分別有各部門各部會我知道,但是你是一個平台嘛那成效怎麼樣?目前我們在打電商的部分我們現在打炸的成果就是它已經在下降"},{"start":3484.249,"end":3504.99,"text":"然後有關於剛剛提到第三方支付的部分我們現在還有一些灰色地帶還要處理尤其是在這個我們現在有平台就是所謂的網購平台上面利用第三方支付詐騙的那這個部分我們現在在跟第三方支付的主管機關那他們有善盡善良管理人責任嗎跟委員報告那個可能要看個案"},{"start":3505.902,"end":3519.477,"text":"要看個案不是 你當一個指揮官嘛你整體評價嘛這業者有沒有善盡責任嘛如果沒有善盡責任我們在法規上要怎麼處理在行政上要怎麼處理嘛報委現在依法他一定要善盡責任"},{"start":3520.931,"end":3525.755,"text":"對啊我知道你報告也寫叫他煽盡責任啊但是你是指揮官啊你終於可以給現在的狀況給個評價啊說他們還沒有煽盡啊還沒有做好啊不然那個錢為什麼會一直被騙出去騙出去就叫他煽盡了然後呢他說我有煽盡啊可是錢還一直出去一直騙出去我們這指揮官總要有一個態度啊說你這樣做不夠啦"},{"start":3544.602,"end":3561.749,"text":"各位報告我們如果有發現任何的業者他在善盡責任這塊不足的時候我們一定會要求主管機關去處理這句話很好你們要求了多少次各位報告我們每個月我們都會每兩個月我們都會有跨部會的協調會議"},{"start":3563.129,"end":3584.014,"text":"那還有跟地方政府的協調會議所以在每一次的協調會議裡面我們都會列管只要是跟部會執行這些打詐司法有關的我們都會要求那請問第三番之務電商跟線上遊戲業者這一個最沒有善盡善良管理人責任的業者是公開資訊嗎"},{"start":3585.962,"end":3613.753,"text":"你們可以提醒國人說 利用對手的第三方支付 危險救營善盡責任 他們都沒有省對手的線上遊戲 危險 錢會被騙了這個是公開資訊嗎跟委員報告 這個部分如果說主管機關有裁罰的話 就是公開資訊所以要等主管機關那有彙整到你們這裡來嗎目前我們還沒有收到 我們有請主管機關要裁罰這什麼時候開始做的這是打詐事法 通過之後我們會要求那你們會公開嗎"},{"start":3615.831,"end":3640.077,"text":"你們會統計嗎我們會我們會好那你們內部會議的時候會呈現嗎我們會那內部會議呈現會是公開資訊嗎目前內部會議的資訊我們沒有辦法公開好那我剛剛提到說會診完到內部會議嘛對不對你們這個打造這個中心相關的會議各部會有來這個會議嘛那這些資訊我可以看得到哪一個第三方志願者從那裡轉走最多錢嗎跟委員不要講我啦國人啦國人可以看得到嗎"},{"start":3645.595,"end":3668.023,"text":"因為跟委報第三方支付業者他轉走錢的前端他還有受詐的那個過程就是詐騙集團本身是利用第三方支付業者那我可不可以知道哪一個第三方支付業者透過那個出去最多這會不會是公開資訊跟委報這個部分我們可以跟金管會來言商你們言商一下因為既然你們開會也不是秘密"},{"start":3668.883,"end":3692.112,"text":"你們也不是秘密會議 議會的人也應該蠻多的大家都看過 看過口耳相傳透過那個最危險 以後大家不要再用那一種支付了不可以怕你們知道 不可以怕你們開胃知道我們不去開胃我們都不知道那到底可以公開到什麼地步再請你們去研究一下好 謝謝委員第二個 我請問一下這個警政署這個"},{"start":3695.424,"end":3698.026,"text":"警示帳戶啊,就是說有人去用詐騙啊早去判處所,早去分局報案嘛去報案後,報案去到偵查隊嘛,一般都到偵查隊"},{"start":3707.223,"end":3720.435,"text":"請問署長你知不知道現在各分局偵查隊今天在辦詐騙的這個員警啊 批御本命你知道嗎知道 確實是非常嚴重非常嚴重嘛齁 所以很多人都不可以去偵查隊嘛 對不對沒有錯也不可以去白鴨嘛 也不可以去偵查隊因為那公允枉反啦"},{"start":3726.62,"end":3729.821,"text":"確實是目前的狀況對不對 調這個資料 調那個資料 有時候都跨出警政署大家調來調去 都沒辦法結案嘛 一個案子都要抹很久的民眾也沒辦法諒解 說你警察一個創社會 把你報案報那麼久 都查不到這個怎麼解決"},{"start":3744.349,"end":3761.024,"text":"包委員現在對於政黨隊這個警力我們有在做這一個研議補充的這個措施包括如果說有缺有不足的會用替代的這個警力會先補不足未來在訓練的部分"},{"start":3761.644,"end":3784.291,"text":"啊或者是留住人才的部分會再提高他的業務的工作的簡化或者是這一些提高他的這個行事家庭現在正在營利當中那我們在上次的一個在這邊的一個內委會的時候也有委員做這樣的執行我們在三個月裡面會來研議這個整個的一個一個促進形式的這個習慣加速來做解決這個問題偵查隊同仁喔 給我歡迎啦 說好啊這樣喔"},{"start":3789.993,"end":3796.515,"text":"那你們提到2月4號你們現在已經有一些電子化了的一個平台我們直接給它動來前是紙本現在用電子化就減少這個就是這個公文往返的效率我現在另外一個課題是這樣這個我最近在做選民服務的時候"},{"start":3818.342,"end":3828.812,"text":"一堆民眾 他就描述 他說有一間投資公司這投資公司一開始賺20萬 後來又賺50萬 後來又賺20萬他剛才說30秒後 整群都說你當了詐騙民眾都知道 你當了詐騙 可是那個人堅持他說我沒有被詐騙"},{"start":3842.029,"end":3854.214,"text":"我現在人家跟我說我如果再繼續投入那個錢就可以拿回來了然後全部人阻止他喔那是一個選民服務的場合喔好我現在講的是這個那你到了金融機構以後金融機構我們現在我們現在的客人去嫁郵局啦譬如說現在我幾十萬人去嫁郵局郵局很優秀的嘛就說你這個錢哪裡來的你怎麼這個錢啊你怎麼這麼多錢啊都問這些問題問題是為什麼有民眾"},{"start":3871.781,"end":3900.366,"text":"他領了十萬又再領了二十萬又再領了五十萬總共被騙了一兩百萬那結果我們的金融機構啊欸 也是陸陸續續被抓走這警政署你們有辦法做什麼嗎有啦 報告委員現在就是說金融機構的主張我們跟金管會就是有做這個合作就是這個行員覺得這個是一個詐騙的一個這個現象的時候第一時間一定會通知我們拍手到達現場"},{"start":3901.246,"end":3905.991,"text":"去做解決我們的行員我知道會通知派出所去研究 去做處理對 這你們的功格都有 我都知道我現在的事也是都這樣做對 我知道 我去嫁錢 我如果去嫁錢他也會吃下手啦 這我都知道現在連開戶也很下手他說奇怪 你也沒有住一家 你也沒有一家吃頭"},{"start":3922.268,"end":3927.915,"text":"你怎麼知道我們這裡開戶 問這些問題這都善意了啦好 對 我知道這個大家都理解 因為走去等到那些詐騙可是我的意思是說 為什麼有那個民眾啊他領了可能一個年十萬 年二十萬"},{"start":3939.686,"end":3950.49,"text":"那這個行員可能就提醒他說你這個領了領了可是這個行員看不到他在別的金融機構的記錄嘛對不對他可能這個領十五萬 那個領十萬 那個領十萬他陸陸續續去領差不多一兩百萬出來系統也不會警示啊 現在要改觀委員現在系統會警示啦"},{"start":3959.853,"end":3986.588,"text":"現在金管會現在就是對於這些金融機構對於這些警示帳戶有可疑的或透過我們的這個通報的就是有警示的帳戶他就知道說這個虎頭是有可能是做人就是詐騙的這個帳戶有人回錢進來不是他捏錢出去不是回錢進來捏錢出去可能就是他會看他的這個領出去的這個動機到底是怎麼樣不是我現在說我在A銀行領了15萬"},{"start":3989.89,"end":3996.537,"text":"過了一個禮拜我在B銀行領了20萬再過三天我在C銀行領了10萬系統會不會警示"},{"start":3999.282,"end":4004.428,"text":"這個部分恐怕就 如果說不是警示賬戶的話就不會進去啊所以他被騙的人啦 要投資詐騙嘛 投資詐騙啊被騙的人要10萬 20萬 可能分成 因為可能去這間銀行 新的銀行說啊你上禮拜才20萬 你這個不能再唸喔 你這個夫人派出算命來說你不能再唸 他就回去了嘛"},{"start":4019.664,"end":4037.477,"text":"他跑去北京這幾個名詞 這種投資詐騙一個名詞叫做潛在的被害人他被騙的時間大概長達兩個月或甚至半年以上我們去跟他勸了之後他也認為我們是阻止他投資的對就請不起來嘛這個區塊我們現在有兩個層次就是我們發現這個就是這潛在被害人我們拍照第一時間就去跟他說你這是詐騙的他如果不聽的時候我們就把他趕走"},{"start":4048.007,"end":4069.065,"text":"因為量有時候是多 就是員警先 第一時間先去去勸不行的時候幹部再去勸再來配合他的家屬去勸不然他就回去了嘛 你這間不給我領我就去北京借定存 我定存出來之後我也是去投資 再20萬 再投資下去所以到最後它會是一個累積 一個數字啦那這種 應該打造中心指揮官在這裡"},{"start":4071.307,"end":4084.274,"text":"這研究一下,因為這種案子現在算蠻多的我覺得這個部分就是有,因為這個部份主要是金融事故,這個各銀行的這個整個連線那些東西,我們會提打到中心來研究啦,來研究看這個可以連線嗎因為聽起來,聽起來很可憐的啦,他喔,我告訴你,他說的時候,專長的人都知道他用詐騙喔"},{"start":4094.178,"end":4102.046,"text":"他再問我說 委員你怎麼幫我請律師 要請到一位律師我說你律師他又開下去 你又再一條就是他不知道 他自己簽不起來了所以我說 你們現在選團做得不錯所以整個民眾都知道他說的是去用詐騙可是怕那個人不知道我覺得這種現在的狀況啊 搞不好還是很嚴重 然後到最後就是"},{"start":4117.389,"end":4125.594,"text":"成立自救會 到最後也拿不回什麼錢我跟委員報告 委員今天這個執行議題非常好我們把這個潛在的備案拿到行政院去做專報我們在這個議題有請行政院做專報要來做怎麼樣各部會來做一起來共同解決好 最後一個課題 主席再給我三分鐘就是說我們現在有加一個人要去參加什麼員工旅遊 去泰國"},{"start":4145.575,"end":4153.799,"text":"阿瑪對朋友的公司去泰國員工旅遊,到這裡幾公里再去不是泰國的地方嘛,跑去什麼園區裡面就對了我們在機場啊,在台灣的機場,有沒有成功攔下多少人?說你不要去,這團是詐騙的,有沒有能夠攔下來?委員,整團是沒有,但是個別攔了很多"},{"start":4170.382,"end":4191.356,"text":"個別就是從今年的元月到四月我們基金我們透過選投透過他要去買票到比較高風險的國家我不要講對的國家 高風險的國家 藍道的國家我們藍道的大概目前人家給我知道藍道有八九位都個別的但是整團的沒有啦"},{"start":4193.357,"end":4210.431,"text":"沒有那個整團啊整團目前為止是沒有遇到整團事實上去到東南寮有一些比較這些那個詐團的這個地方平常講他們要去的只是自己本身都知道他出去是要去做詐騙的工作"},{"start":4212.509,"end":4229.416,"text":"是喔本身你就知道他就是要去做詐騙的方法大部分大部分喔大部分所以說像這種零星個案的這一種是會有但是我們目前為止沒有發現整團的 整團說整個都爆棄了我聽過一種是這樣就是說他現在這間公司在辦員工旅遊嘛這個員工他就做他們朋友"},{"start":4236.774,"end":4246.123,"text":"朋友就帶他們公司去員工旅遊,或是什麼普及島,幾天幾夜,都寫得很好聽,去到後面就坐遊覽車,我們出國去,我們怎麼知道遊覽車在哪一國,我們搞不清楚,就坐到那裡去了,後面就去到原區,那些人就是帶他們朋友去員工旅遊,家長也說要帶他們朋友出國去玩"},{"start":4260.026,"end":4260.507,"text":"我希望這個看在機場能夠攔阻多少"},{"start":4278.886,"end":4279.827,"text":"謝謝王委員 下一位我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":4309.867,"end":4331.998,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進 列席政府金管署長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體 記者 女士先生有請打造中心指揮官 馬事員 馬指揮官請馬指揮官那麼另外警政署 速發部 通傳會和金管會都有一位來協助我們指揮官來答覆金管會可能是跟銀行局比較有關"},{"start":4338.608,"end":4356.907,"text":"我們要完善農會帳戶系統關懷機制還有我們實名制下架的廣告其實防詐是名存實亡對不起是名是實名制的名來我們看一下其實跟馬祖元說一下我在院會的時候有問過我們院長跟我們今晚會的主委"},{"start":4357.688,"end":4385.664,"text":"我問說 是不是全部的金融機構都有加入一個金融資料暨聯防通報電子平台這個平台 指揮官熟悉吧指揮官我們知道 指揮官知道喔 好 那麼其實我直逐的是說 是不是所有金融機構有沒有金融機構未加入的那麼 指揮官是說 欸 應該要求全部加入主委回去答覆說 我會回去再確認那請問金管會"},{"start":4386.926,"end":4410.276,"text":"你們主委交辦下來是不是全部都加入了 有沒有辦法確認銀行局報告委員 這個部分我是不是可以再確認一下所以你們還沒確認嘛是我是在4月29號就親自在院會問卓院長也要求你們主委你們主委的承諾會再跟我確認你們到現在還沒有確認"},{"start":4417.688,"end":4442.876,"text":"還沒有確認 好 那我會再跟你們主委提醒你們答應我要確認的來 那個馬祖陽我跟你說明一下為什麼這個事情重要 來我們看一下這個你就很熟悉了現在所有的銀行帳戶或零貴轉帳會在銀行之間做匯款那麼只要進入過這個系統因為我們有這個平台所以這個平台會去偵測疑似交易它會經過系統通報通報給誰 通報給警方警方接到通報之後就會透過這個系統"},{"start":4444.116,"end":4468.347,"text":"去通知銀行那總行就會查出是哪個分行然後告知分行去做臨櫃關懷如果他是臨櫃的話指揮官是不是這樣子報告委員正確那但是如果有銀行或金融機構沒有加入這個平台系統我們警方就沒有辦法即時的偵測也沒有辦法經過通報後提醒他是不是這樣所以很重要嘛好 那我再告訴你另外一個"},{"start":4469.207,"end":4474.57,"text":"有加入但是出現問題的就是農漁會的帳戶農會的帳戶不管是在帳戶臨櫃轉帳還是非臨櫃的ATM轉帳舉例來講我舉三個農會內埔農會它的編號是74901高雄地區農會是60501台南新化是51901他們各自有各自的編號但是他們會透過誰"},{"start":4492.299,"end":4518.79,"text":"透過一個叫做我們的農經公司農經資訊公司他是由農業金庫在108年的時候成立的他會把他們的資訊呢整合起來用一個600的代號去進行匯款進入我們的平台我們如果偵測到疑似的可疑交易系統會通報警方警方後呢就要透過系統回去通知糟糕了通知誰只能通知到農經資訊公司因為"},{"start":4521.271,"end":4530.018,"text":"600嘛 那是哪一家的匯款不知道指揮官 有沒有發現問題在哪裡了不知道有沒有看到問題了好 那怎麼解決"},{"start":4531.215,"end":4554.818,"text":"是不是我們跟金管會這邊來討論這個部分的諮詢要能夠暢通這個呢因為今天主席只有邀請沒有邀請農業部的農經署農業金庫跟財經公司農經公司都不知道所以呢這個東西要在行政院透過指揮官你們的系統去要求農業部農經署趕快要求農經諮詢公司怎麼去解決這個問題可以嗎"},{"start":4555.839,"end":4582.506,"text":"好的沒問題多久可以給我一個明確的結果跟委員報告我們一個禮拜之內我們會把它列管到行政院裡面好所以呢這個要有一個精進的作為謝謝往下看接下來我們網路平台廣告實名證的成效我們看到一個新聞就在上一星期速發部主要納管了四大網路的廣告平台結果有人說臉書5月被質疑速發部說我們5月的時候會提計畫檢討"},{"start":4583.846,"end":4609.061,"text":"我也問過書發佈啦 他說Google臉書LINE跟TikTok配合度都很高 結果呢 觀察詐騙廣告有下降 財損金額也有下滑是這樣嗎 指揮官小紅書有配合嗎小紅書目前沒有落地小紅書沒有落地 所以沒有辦法要求他配合沒有配合好 那沒有落地的怎麼辦目前我們只能做網路上的監控網路上的監控 好 那小紅書這個我沒有想辦法 來往下看"},{"start":4610.203,"end":4637.099,"text":"結果我們看一下我們從1月底開始實施實名之後的確通報平台下降的數量馬上從13000掉到了8900下降了可是到了4月底的統計回升了還更高到18000回復到之前的水準我們看到Meta臉書在1月的時候有13000實名之後馬上掉下來升10000出頭結果到了3月4月又漲回去了"},{"start":4638.058,"end":4640.02,"text":"受詐金額從95億掉到60億結果又回升到70億 76億請問是不是詐團找到了對付實名制的對策"},{"start":4647.53,"end":4669.432,"text":"這裡面有兩個因素 一個就是說二月份剛好是農曆春節二月份不是我們實名制的效果 是農曆春節的效果對 如果說長期來看的話 我們實名制是有效的有效嗎 因為跟委員報告 他的這個通報平台下架就表示這一些廣告已經被我們偵測到 而且下架了好 那我告訴你炸團怎麼做 往下看"},{"start":4670.553,"end":4689.703,"text":"現在呢 我們警方跟Meta 跟我們那個速發部啊發現疑似詐騙廣告就通到平台嘛 因為有實名制嘛 對不對所以我們網路平台就把它下架了嘛下架之後 詐團怎麼處理同一個實身份證的身份 ID 同一個人頭 同一個戶口的方式再來一次 無限循環啊你們知道嗎 速發部知道嗎速發部知不知道這個情況"},{"start":4698.746,"end":4711.421,"text":"怎麼做這個部分我們有跟我們幾個網路廣告平台業者一起去討論就是說類似這樣子的一個狀況應該要把它列到他的這個防炸計畫書裡面去做風險的評估怎麼做就這樣評估然後呢我告訴你幾個問題"},{"start":4716.767,"end":4729.824,"text":"同樣的人頭同樣的付款方式它沒有成本嘛你幫我下架我再報名一次嘛下架再報名一次嘛然後呢而且我下架之後呢因為廣告投放啊你下架之後你就不會跟我收錢啦它不只沒有時間人頭的成本它連財務的成本都沒有那這樣子嚇阻什麼用"},{"start":4735.327,"end":4762.453,"text":"是 報告委員 事實上以這個Meta跟Line他們都已經有在開始做自己內部因為主動防範的這個部分喔雖然那個防炸計畫書目前還在送我們省當中但是據我們了解這個Line的部分呢他們也有用機器人工的方式只要我們通報過的然後他就會自動的去掃描然後呢 他再來一次不是 然後掃描以後他就會他再來一次啊他就會把它下架下架後再來一次啊"},{"start":4765.099,"end":4776.077,"text":"無限循環嘛來 馬子維君你們討論的結果 對不起齁發現問題沒有人家說到高一尺磨高一丈啊怎麼辦你們什麼時候可以分一丈變兩丈"},{"start":4777.779,"end":4801.732,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在的重點在於裁罰也就是說未來我們跟速發部合作那包括速發部跟內政部我們一旦發現這個在實名制投放廣告有違規的部分還有剛剛委員所講到的情況裁罰誰裁罰平台嗎裁罰業者裁罰平台嗎對有能力裁罰嗎有沒有能力裁罰他如果這個循環循環你能裁罰他他嗎"},{"start":4802.714,"end":4822.388,"text":"有的有有辦法我們只要就是說他的那個證據如果是確實的話我們就會可以去做好我等著看陳一下指揮官這個部分的就兩個要求了第一個馬上將農會賬戶非零貴匯款發生可疑的交易的時候呢對賬戶持有人的關懷及聯邦性能精進您說下週就會提報嗎我們下週會提報我們的內部事務會議請農業部來列席然後我們請一個院內改善好不好對可以好"},{"start":4828.973,"end":4840.684,"text":"那第二個針對實名制已經疑似詐騙的廣告他們的購買者你們說要處罰平台嘛那也是一樣一個月內對於平台的因應方式提出來可以嗎好沒問題好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝那我們接下來我們請王洪威委員代理主席"},{"start":4863.208,"end":4874.078,"text":"接下來我們請吳宗憲委員質詢好 謝謝主席那我們麻煩法務部長 調查局局長以及署長 警政署署長"},{"start":4885.358,"end":4900.529,"text":"三位早安三位還是辛苦了謝謝三位對國家的貢獻我先請教署長我現在有個問題要請教就是說我今天還是蠻肯定就是說警政署在打造上面的努力"},{"start":4903.391,"end":4927.243,"text":"因為警察消防這些人其實就是真的在捍衛我們台灣的那其實捍衛台灣的不是什麼黑熊學院或是側翼網軍那真正我一直以來都很敬佩警察消防或海巡這些同仁那署長最近一直有人跟我提到說有不同警察局的人跟我提到不是分局警察局的人跟我提到說有些訓練"},{"start":4928.604,"end":4945.881,"text":"教育訓練都請一些很奇怪的人來講甚至一些紙上談兵的人來講他們就很懷疑說他們一輩子穿防彈衣配槍在做事情的就現在來對他們教育訓練的人是根本不懂的那當然啦這些人是從哪裡來我想大家都猜得到"},{"start":4946.562,"end":4965.991,"text":"所以我就覺得啦國家的預算不能獨厚特定的某一個團體那請那些人那些外行人來對內行一輩子配槍穿防彈衣的人去講解這些事情其實我覺得有一點是外行在領導內行那我就跟署長報告再麻煩署長能夠了解一下"},{"start":4967.403,"end":4989.326,"text":"那我覺得最近這個打詐的問題其實非常多一直是國人很在意的那被騙的金額從去年有時候平均一天要到四億被詐騙到今年最新的數據至少還有兩億多那總統他說警察打詐不利破壞率只有1.3%但是我當然是在這邊跟各位國人報告其實真正的問題"},{"start":4990.367,"end":5016.258,"text":"是出在行政機關沒有做前期的控管署長你認同這句話嗎認同就是說所有打詐這東西應該重點不是在於最後的司法機關不是法務部的問題不是警政署問題真正打詐的問題應該是你行政機關譬如說你對於Google、Maple等等他們投放廣告的控管但是目前在我國的這個控管真的非常的不足所以導致後面司法機關、檢察官"},{"start":5017.699,"end":5045.474,"text":"警察非常的辛苦 而且還被怪說你們破獲率為什麼這麼低 這是不對政政總統其實不去體恤警察啦 一直說警察要市民如親 生活要簡約但他自己在官邸開那個烤肉趴 我比較希望說當然開那個是還好 但是你應該還是要多給警察一些鼓勵啦那我想請教署長 依照社會秩序文物法六三條散播謠言足以影響公共安寧那我想 影響公共安寧啊 這個"},{"start":5046.655,"end":5048.201,"text":"這個依照實務的見解就是"},{"start":5049.972,"end":5077.828,"text":"應該是一些不實的訊息嘛或讓聽到的人會感覺到恐懼 等等對不對對好 那我想請問一下最近有一個議題吵很兇就是那個陳菊走了然後一個問號那警察在4小時內就抓到那現在很多網友就有意見啊他就說 哇這個警察辦詐欺如果可以這麼厲害的話大家就不會這麼辛苦那還有人說 欸現在連提問都不行了嗎那更何況很多媒體 政論節目或YouTuber他們常常"},{"start":5079.489,"end":5102.107,"text":"說誰誰誰貪污打一個問號 從來沒有見到你們查辦耶那為什麼這一件你們可以這樣查辦那另外就是說 他今天來詢問一個問題甚至一個公眾人物有時候是可受公平的事項尤其院長這麼久都沒有來上班 人民提出這個問題我想說這個到底是違反了什麼法規另外 聽到這句話你會感到害怕嗎 請問署長"},{"start":5104.121,"end":5131.303,"text":"法委我想這個是一個個案啦那個案的這個狀況如果說是不是一個事實那因為我們第一時間大概就是會了解他的這個網址上的這個人嘛那這個人去了解完之後大概會了解他所講的是不是一個狀況一個事實事實我們會如果有一些目的我們會請這檢察官來做一個這個會造成社會的恐慌"},{"start":5132.003,"end":5152.806,"text":"然後在上面寫了一句而且這一句是經常性的在各個媒體上常看到但是媒體沒有人被辦youtuber沒有人被辦結果一個小老百姓寫了這句他還是問到底有沒有這件事情那就被辦了就像其實常常有人寫說金正恩是不是過世西方媒體也常常在報導但是從來沒有人去管這些事情所以我一直覺得"},{"start":5153.627,"end":5171.607,"text":"因為我們對於警察的信任以及對於社會安全安定感覺會在這幾件小事情上面就會破壞殆盡所以你要知道很多網友在講這件事 很多人在講這件事那這個對警察給社會的安定感整個就毀了原來我可以談天談地 但是不能談花嗎"},{"start":5173.509,"end":5192.741,"text":"甚至他這個可能他沒有別的意思啊他只問說因為當時確實有人在做這個傳說連我自己都聽到這個謠言但是只是我不會上網去問那有人聽到發了這個問結果你竟然要用司法用警察下去處理就會造成社會的不安而且你剛剛說你剛剛講了真偽內容真偽"},{"start":5194.761,"end":5207.628,"text":"那如果這個要辦的話 那前陣子那個劉四芳談到租屋補貼 張冠禮帶也被踢破了洪聲翰講的育嬰劉子廷那個補貼也被踢爆了 根本沒這件事林佳龍講的那個護照沒有錢印了"},{"start":5210.49,"end":5231.466,"text":"後來也發現沒有這個事情然後張純涵說那個中小企業補助都被藍白刪除後來發現也沒這個事那這個不是對社會影響更大嗎那為什麼貴署都沒有去查辦呢這是我問題如果你只講內容的真偽那這些部長這些總統府的副秘書長他們幹的事情是更糟糕更不應該的就問你們"},{"start":5231.986,"end":5248.788,"text":"不當一回事一個小老百姓你們卻處理成這樣那我跟署長說這一點其實我們是不滿那再請署長這邊了解一下那那個局長局長不好意思局長委員長跟局長請教一下因為那一天齁那一天我跟你請問了"},{"start":5250.49,"end":5271.869,"text":"並同帶回這件事啦 因為還有包括部長其實同一個問題你們那天其實沒有給到我答案然後局長你甚至你說這個是因為那份公文不應該出現在現場而且你說我沒有看過 其實我看過公文啦你可以質疑說這份公文也許不是去領取表格的必要的公文"},{"start":5272.429,"end":5295.282,"text":"因為第一時間領取的人去問中選會跟他說這份公文要帶所以他們一直認為這份一定要帶但是我覺得要不要帶著去請領這個連訴書這個不是重點而是這份公文是不是應該被扣押我跟局長報告扣押的定義是對於本案或他案的犯罪證物可以扣押第二個對於違禁品"},{"start":5296.142,"end":5318.471,"text":"這個可以扣押 但是呢 對於非違禁品的東西非本案或他案的犯罪證物 這沒有扣押的依據再來你說那份公文不該出現在那裡 我跟局長報告當天是聯署那個發起人 他們請黨部的人一個人去幫他帶領所以他把身份證委託書全部都交給黨部的人"},{"start":5318.951,"end":5342.053,"text":"所以你一直說這個東西不該出現那裡 其實這沒有任何依據那個現場是因為檢察官帶隊嘛所以甲官 現在你講的是事後去了解那甲官他在現場覺得說他需要釐清我跟你講 這個是我事後跟你說你說這個東西不該出現在那裡 我必須跟你講的第一個 他該不該出現在那裡 沒有任何法律說不可以出現在那裡"},{"start":5342.934,"end":5371.605,"text":"我的東西我的罰單我有時候請別人幫我代繳他可能會出現在他家那如果你認為那個不應該出現在這個我朋友家那你就說要扣走這其實不符合我國刑事用法的扣押依據這我要跟局長報告我現在講每一句話我就說我在國會來我講每一句話歡迎大家去檢視我哪一句話講錯所以局長您說不該出現在那裡所以要扣回去釐清這個完全沒有法律依據這個檢察官在現場判斷對我們就推給檢察官所以說檢察官不應該"},{"start":5372.665,"end":5393.983,"text":"好 而且更何況是一個合法的公文 它不是違禁品那我在這邊跟各位報告 這個東西根本不應該扣對於不得查扣的東西去進行查扣 這就不對了所以我禮拜一才會引用總統府的例子就像你去這個人家搜索結果他竊盜罪 你要去搜犯罪工具結果你把他女朋友寫給他情書一起扣回去"},{"start":5394.784,"end":5405.827,"text":"想欣賞一下 這樣就不對了所以你們說的這個東西其實我是沒有辦法接受就好像什麼來我們再來看一下"},{"start":5406.897,"end":5434.354,"text":"其實最近為什麼我一直說你們是選擇性辦案因為你就大炮打小鳥違反比例原則而且違反司法獨立的一致性所以真正在迫害司法威信的其實是這些人就是選擇性辦案的這些人然後我也跟部長報告一件事情我一直捍衛檢察官的司法官屬性一堆人想要把檢察官司法官屬性拔掉部長您很清楚我一直拼了命的在希望維持檢察官的司法官屬性"},{"start":5435.194,"end":5460.416,"text":"如果說再這樣搞下去人家會覺得你檢察官都是檢查一體就是直接命令就幹了啊然後跟著政治人物搖擺啊所以他檢察官市長官屬性還能夠維持嗎我們已經岌岌可危了那我們還要再越多這種案子下來那將來怎麼辦然後再來兩位台中市黨部啊被搜索之後扣走什麼扣走贊助"},{"start":5461.892,"end":5470.894,"text":"名冊贊助者名冊還有動員名冊還有歷年的戰情分析請問一下這個東西跟幽靈連署有什麼關聯性我想請教兩位"},{"start":5474.675,"end":5492.851,"text":"這個都是個案的內容我們都不知道到底在現場沒關係你們都說不知道包括宜蘭的那個也都說不知道那我在這邊跟各位報告這些東西其實都跟幼齡連署無關嘛甚至有很多金主他的戶籍就不在那裡根本不可能參與"},{"start":5494.012,"end":5512.517,"text":"罷免啊所以你把這個東西扣回去只會讓大家懷疑我想說好就算調查官 檢察官沒有惡意你也會讓民眾懷疑說這是怎麼回事為什麼跟幽靈連署無關的這些重要的知識者資料動員還有一些戰情分析全部都被扣走了那你要扣給誰看"},{"start":5514.324,"end":5530.631,"text":"這你要扣給誰看所以這都會讓民眾非常的懷疑到底司法為什麼跟政治這樣綁在一起就像什麼就像減掉機關啦我今天去查一個公司續開發票那續開發票違反強硬礦氣法稅捐激增法我應該是查他的一些"},{"start":5531.491,"end":5551.346,"text":"一些帳冊 船票 AB帳 進貨單 電腦是沖銷的名戲嘛這是我們當檢察官的一個基本概念結果呢 你扣完這個之外你還要把他的機器一起扣回家 原料都要把它扣回家這樣對嗎 好 就像說珍珠 你去查一個珍珠奶茶有沒有虛開發票就一定把他的牛奶跟珍珠都扣走"},{"start":5552.845,"end":5575.099,"text":"這不對啊 所以讓我想到一件事 我跟兩位報告我小時候很喜歡看漫畫卡通還有周星馳的電影我就突然想到 周星馳有部電影裡面那個皇帝叫韋曉寶去敖拜家抄家 扣他的犯罪所得"},{"start":5575.939,"end":5601.541,"text":"就周星馳他那個韋曉寶把奧拜漂亮的老婆跟女僕都一起扣走了然後還把奧拜的媽媽叫多榮扣回多榮家去去服侍那我以前小時候看這個覺得很好笑看不懂但我現在今天我都現在此刻我終於懂原來這個就叫做病童帶回就是宜蘭地檢署說的病童帶回因為它不是跟本漢無關啊"},{"start":5602.912,"end":5619.172,"text":"他跟去豪邁家查扣犯罪所的無關啊那為什麼也被韋曉寶併同帶回所以我現在看到的就是這樣不管台中也是這樣宜蘭也是這樣你扣了很多跟本案無關的東西然後給我一句話叫做併同帶回"},{"start":5620.51,"end":5645.656,"text":"我到現在還是沒有辦法接受我想說在這個過程裡面甲官他也都是依法行政然後公正在執法啦所以這個他到底扣了什麼內容說實在我也不知道我知道局長你不知道因為你們個案嘛局長可能不知道這個的確是一個個案的問題那有沒有扣到什麼這個是現場"},{"start":5648.017,"end":5676.736,"text":"檢察院來做一個審查 是不是得為證據之務 沒關係謝謝部長 謝謝部長的解釋謝謝部長 我想部長跟局長 其實你們比較高位階你可能不了解個案扣了什麼 那我就跟各位報告他們會跟我講被扣了什麼那我聽完這些東西的時候 我只覺得不合理那我在這邊跟兩位懇求 司法是百年大計跟教育一樣累積人民的信任真的要上百年 但是毀掉可能是幾個案子就毀掉那目前非常多人 包括吳子嘉他的每一島民調"},{"start":5677.937,"end":5698.715,"text":"其實人民對於司法被政治制度介入其實他的認知的比例非常高認定是如此的比例非常高那這個都不是民進黨口中司法改革該有的樣貌好然後 我在講其實民進黨一直講求言論自由啦但是這段時間我們看到的我在發言一個陳菊走了嗎 我要被查辦或者是"},{"start":5700.277,"end":5728.16,"text":"民進黨在黨綱裡面說司法應該是跨越黨派要獨立審判但是我現在其實看不到很多時候變成是就只跟自己立場不同我就處理這給我感覺好像變成這個樣子就是變成是就是像我們最近看到的英國的經濟學人雜誌還有美國那個卡內基自由基金會他們所提到其實都提到了"},{"start":5729.259,"end":5751.385,"text":"賴政府在這段時間的作為其實造成我們內部的對立那這個東西會影響到美國會不會拋棄台灣的一個重大變數這是經濟學人講的或是他認為說這個東西如果不管會造成東亞地區的兩岸之間的一個不穩定然後會影響美國這都是國外的砸而且這些譬如說卡內基金會他對美國政府影響力是很大"},{"start":5753.756,"end":5771.407,"text":"我是希望啦 不要變成是整個 就是說 配合著政府這樣做還有就是 我也不想跟我以前 指導我的老師或者是我以前 帶著學級司法官 我指導他的在公務上面針鋒相對 因為私下我們感情都非常好"},{"start":5771.847,"end":5789.876,"text":"我真的覺得不應該這樣啦那我覺得最近很多人出來覺得不滿或是美麗島民調很多人對於司法被政治介入不滿那為什麼很多人起來反抗我還再套一句周星馳電影講啦他說其實這些 我跟你講這些反抗人的多少不是藍白政黨決定"},{"start":5791.59,"end":5814.021,"text":"是執政者決定你今天越倒行逆施反抗的人就越多我也是希望不要我們能夠一片和諧但是我一直等不到這一天的來臨然後再來我最後請教局長局長我看到你們調局給我的報告我上次請問你說為什麼偽造文書的案子你要給他選舉查查的和分然後你在那邊給我的理由其中一個是說"},{"start":5815.642,"end":5833.502,"text":"這跟選罷法有關那我想請問一下一階的幽靈連署跟選罷法哪一條有關請教局長 第幾條包委其實我那天跟你回答是說我們這是回歸到選舉查查的績效那我們本局的廉政處在112年的10月7號就已經有函班這個"},{"start":5836.161,"end":5846.894,"text":"法務部調查局113年總統副總統及立法委員選舉查查專案的績效考核要點這是在112年的10月就已經函班了那這裡面的第19點你聽我說完這裡面的第19點就已經有"},{"start":5852.28,"end":5864.054,"text":"有明定了本次選舉當選人的罷免程序及當選人因罷免而辦理補選其績效考核適用本要點的規定所以這個在2012年底就已經定了我完全認同局長剛說的"},{"start":5867.958,"end":5890.403,"text":"但是請問這跟幽靈連署有什麼關係這個是罷免的程序啊你剛講的那個是涉犯選罷法那個是涉犯選罷法我昨天已經有提供這個要點給委員我有拿到你們給我的資料嘛所以我請教你的問題嘛各地檢署在一接幽靈連署都沒有談到選罷法各地檢署喔那這個就是一個罷免程序啊那今天為什麼調查局可以把"},{"start":5891.977,"end":5899.967,"text":"這個東西突然灌了一個跟選罷法有關用選舉查查去合積分然後突然從一個很低積分變成好幾萬分的積分這個是罷免程序當然是跟選舉罷免有關"},{"start":5905.391,"end":5928.168,"text":"來 局長你這樣說 我請教你過往哪一次罷免我們之前有罷免韓國瑜市長有罷免謝國良市長至少成功鎮哪裡有很多鎮長都有罷免請問一下哪一次罷免期間 連署期間你們有用 選舉查查何分我說連署期間這個我們要回去我跟局長報告"},{"start":5929.889,"end":5949.103,"text":"來 請問一下沒有案子沒有 所以這一次就是史上第一次嘛這一次真的是史上第一次發生這樣這麼多的狀況那史上第一次罷免嗎是史上第一次罷免嗎我剛念的韓院長 謝市長台東有一些鎮長還有其他人的罷免案那不是都罷免如果按照局長您說的對我們的績效裡面沒有分藍跟綠"},{"start":5952.805,"end":5968.451,"text":"我沒有說藍綠你不要給我誤導話題我沒有說藍綠我只說過往的罷免如果依照局長你講的這麼正正有詞這麼有道理我也認同你結果過往的過往罷免為什麼沒有分藍跟綠的話那委員是擔心說你要用選罷法的績效還是委員擔心作弊被抓有績效"},{"start":5977.253,"end":5994.629,"text":"所以啊沒有你不要再講作弊了我上次已經講過一次了我說這就好像什麼班上兩個人作弊啦一個退學另外一個罰站五分鐘就坐下因為他老爸是教養會長他祖子是民進黨好那即使沒有這樣我們不講藍綠我們報告局長我們不講藍綠我只是講例子嘛為什麼局長"},{"start":6002.677,"end":6025.935,"text":"局長你不用亂扯那邊我只請教局長過往的罷免這麼多次了請問哪一次在連署期間你們讓調查官大規模出去搜索大規模讓檢察官計壓然後再把核分算為選舉查查的核分請問過去哪一次有其實包委員我們其實都沒有大規模在這個節點的同時我們各類的案件我們各類的案件都同時在實行"},{"start":6031.359,"end":6054.18,"text":"過去哪一次的罷免期間的連署你們有用這個方式去用選舉查查和分請教局長就這問題這麼簡單過去都沒有立案是 所以這是史上第一次我要跟各位報告這是史上第一次很多時候啊 就我講的一個公司啊如果你今天突然把績效獎金提高十倍某一個項目績效獎金提高十倍我跟你講"},{"start":6054.56,"end":6082.676,"text":"全公司不會有人做別的事全部去衝那個績效那個獎金的那個項目所以我覺得這個不應該啦就是因為過去沒有現在突然有不是突然有我就跟您報告了嘛是112年的10月7號就已經有這個辦法然後我覺得更可笑的是一階的幽靈連署各地檢署沒有人用選舉罷免法我在這邊跟各位強調沒有人用選舉罷免法"},{"start":6084.69,"end":6105.287,"text":"所以然後你下面跟我跟我這樣講我覺得你說112年對不對報告局長你說112年對不對那你去查一下成功證台東縣成功證證長是什麼時候罷免的我印象如果記沒有錯是去去年罷免那為什麼沒有用那你不是講話就矛盾了你不是剛才講嗎"},{"start":6106.428,"end":6123.45,"text":"因為我記得我去年那時候沒有案件啊不是啊你有沒有給這個核分跟有沒有案件是兩回事嘛我先說有這個核分我們的調查官沒有去調查偵辦我們是要給他什麼這就是我今天我有意見的地方"},{"start":6124.951,"end":6148.271,"text":"這個都不用查 這一次開始貓起來查這一次說又來了沒有人告發我跟你講又來沒有人告發我跟你講多少公務員貪污根本沒有人告發你們有資料就下去查辦我跟你講 局長我知道局長很不高興因為昨天禮拜一局長回去的時候貴公司就有兩個人打電話跟我說局長很不爽那我說我也沒辦法沒關係沒關係 局長"},{"start":6152.094,"end":6173.22,"text":"我們虛心接受委員的指向這樣啦齁 您對我不滿我也OK啦但是我們就是就事論事我私下像我跟部長我跟部長常爭鋒相對但我對部長的關懷部長很清楚他就是我的長官公務之外他就是我尊敬的長官對您也是公務之外我對您的尊敬不會少一分"},{"start":6175.452,"end":6200.719,"text":"唉 我覺得齁 如果說齁真的我們要去談說妨害選舉 那我跟我在這邊可以告發啊我們選罷法104條 你就罷免的部分你有一些不實的資訊 那也會違反104條第一項嘛那我們想了一下 那之前劉四芳呢劉四芳她講 藍白亂砍 租金普帖後來又說沒有 後來又被人家踢爆那洪聲翰 我剛剛講了嘛"},{"start":6202.987,"end":6232.166,"text":"因應留職 停薪 補貼 他說被藍白刪光結果後來也查沒有不是 沒有這件事林佳雄講的那個護照後來也沒有這件事張純涵講的中小企業補助款被藍白刪光後來查也沒有這件事那這個他就是為了罷免在天才府那為什麼104條第一項沒有人辦呢所以是不是我這邊就直接告發然後麻煩麻煩局長這邊能夠查因為既然要處理我們這麼重視司法以及國人我們就這樣做嘛"},{"start":6233.4,"end":6251.545,"text":"那麻煩局長部長那是不是這幾位部長還有總統府副秘書長他虛假訊息就意圖影響到罷免這符合選舉罷免法104條第一項的規定那是不是我們就應該要開始查辦這個事情因為這個是虛假訊息連他們自己後來都承認"},{"start":6252.867,"end":6273.081,"text":"那是不是可以這樣做那一樣我這邊跟各位我們公務上面針鋒相對我該講什麼就講什麼你們也不希望一個國家到最後只剩下一種聲音啦我覺得還是要有人挺身而出去點出問題在哪裡如果對我們不滿我也覺得不好意思對各位有所冒犯但是該講的話我還是會講出來不是啦因為我會說到很多以前同事的電話算了沒關係這個我不講一樣謝謝三位的辛勞謝謝委員"},{"start":6283.695,"end":6307.026,"text":"好 謝謝吳宗憲委員 接下來那個王宏威委員質詢好 現在我們請王宏威委員發言謝謝主席 一樣先請我們法務部部長還有調查局局長 麻煩局長"},{"start":6321.204,"end":6325.368,"text":"局長,剛才我聽了吳宗憲、趙偉的質詢,你的回答應該是未來,升官發財,指日可待。不會不會,我把我現在的工作做好了。"},{"start":6339.71,"end":6357.304,"text":"可以看這個上級的臉色來辦事我們在談到很多案件裡面都在講說都是個案不去講但是呢你剛才也提到竟然在整個的偵辦過程裡面就可以講到說有人在教室裡面集體作弊所以"},{"start":6357.924,"end":6363.507,"text":"局長 祝你官運亨通但是局長我想請問一下 剛才在講就是有關於這個獎勵辦法是112年開始實施請問一下112年有沒有在這個連署裡面出現死人連署跟偽造連署"},{"start":6379.617,"end":6403.228,"text":"市長跟委員報告我們在112年定的這個績效要點主要是為了要因應113年的二合一選舉那但是我們在要點裡面有特別提到就是說因為本次而這個選舉當選的當選人他的這個將來的罷免程序以及當選人因為罷免而必須要辦理補選他的績效考核也適用本要的規定我想現在看有好多種"},{"start":6404.088,"end":6413.459,"text":"好多種的這個標準不同剛才說過去都沒有告發嗎怎麼會沒有告發呢我剛才為什麼特別講112年以後在113年11月29號"},{"start":6420.487,"end":6443.973,"text":"中選會就告發了有關於謝國良市長的罷免案的相關的偽造連署跟死亡連署他的罷免時間是113年的11月29號所以如果按照你可以適用你這個相關的獎勵辦法我就不懂謝國良當時他的罷免案有辦嗎"},{"start":6445.473,"end":6465.681,"text":"也有沒有告發呢 有告發呀那另外過去數次的不管是公投案或者是罷免案中選會有沒有告發呢 你剛才說都沒有人告發中選會也是有告發的喔在包含罷免韓國瑜 王浩宇 陳柏惟 黃潔 高敏玲 陳志忠"},{"start":6470.578,"end":6484.504,"text":"林長佐等等 中選會通通有告發 請問有辦嗎奇怪了 中選會告發 你們當它 中選會是SOGAU中選會的告發你們有辦嗎 沒有辦啊那至於你112年可以適用的 我剛剛講那幾個確實在112年之前 你沒有辦 當然沒有適用"},{"start":6494.068,"end":6506.878,"text":"謝國良113年年底告發你有辦嗎 沒有辦你有適用嗎 你也沒有適用所以你現在講的所謂的標準根本都是因人設事都是假官都沒有發達給我們"},{"start":6510.831,"end":6520.759,"text":"都沒有給你 那是檢察官怠惰囉那檢察官他可以自己查 他本來就是偵查主體啊那為什麼不查 那為什麼不查那你為什麼不去追究中選會告發 中選會還是行政單位中選會不是跟調查局告發為什麼檢察官可以不查 不需要查沒有交辦嘛沒有交辦就不必查嘛"},{"start":6532.569,"end":6548.821,"text":"沒有交辦就不必查嘛有交辦才需要查嘛而且要大規模查嘛唯一的標準就是如此啊你剛才在講的你所有的不管相關的規定也好有沒有告發也好現在看起來全部都是雙標還不只雙標好幾個標準唯一的標準就是上面有沒有交辦而已嘛沒有所以你還在這邊可以硬拗嗎沒有 這我不用拗我很清楚你當然在硬拗好 再來"},{"start":6561.731,"end":6584.819,"text":"剛才都說是個案可是有很多的個案連結起來它是不是就是通案其實大家都知道在民主國家裡面你要去搜索在野政黨本來就是一個大事情好 當然你們這次以所謂的偽造文書就是以連署造假來做你們調查偵查的這個重點"},{"start":6585.879,"end":6597.879,"text":"但是我上次在這邊我也講過在你們搜索台北市黨部的時候你針對的是罷免吳思瑤跟罷免吳佩奕的連署的造假 對不對"},{"start":6599.059,"end":6606.444,"text":"台北市黨部是不是 這個是個案的內容這還不是個案 你又在裝傻囉你不要裝傻囉 是不是在裝傻來來 不知道也可以回答 我已經講過了在台北市 你偵辦的是兩個立法委員的造假連署所以他針對的區是非常非常明確的"},{"start":6624.52,"end":6641.609,"text":"但是我上次就講結果你帶走的是什麼呢你帶走的是中山區的黨員名冊我上次就講中山區的黨員如何能連署到吳佩奕委員跟吳思瑤委員呢好 剛才"},{"start":6642.589,"end":6662.598,"text":"吳宗憲委員也特別提到在台中你們把支持者的名冊也帶走請問一下支持者的名冊你為什麼要帶走呢所以你今天是要查國民黨的金主們嗎是不是你為什麼要把支持者的名冊帶走"},{"start":6664.139,"end":6675.223,"text":"所以現在減掉你們辦案已經辦到無限上綱你們本來是辦連署造假結果把支持者的名冊帶走把戰情分析帶走現在是怎樣你們是連選舉人家的戰情分析"},{"start":6682.984,"end":6707.063,"text":"也 也違法了嗎請問一下一個市黨部裡面 任何的黨部裡面有戰情分析這是什麼樣的違法的文件來 回答我這就通案了啦這已經是通案 不是個案請問一下在黨部裡面如果有戰情分析它是什麼樣的違法文件可以扣押 可以帶走"},{"start":6709.619,"end":6725.588,"text":"答不出來嗎?這還是個案的一個認定這是個案這當然是通案所以我要講的如果把黨部的金主的名冊帶走把戰情的分析帶走"},{"start":6726.79,"end":6742.659,"text":"這叫做個案個案你們不會去查唷這根本都違法了嘛這是已經違法濫權啦好再來剛剛講宜蘭宜蘭把中選會的公文帶走把中選會的公文帶走"},{"start":6743.717,"end":6764.193,"text":"然後一開始還否認最後說不小心帶走請問一下這還可以視為個案是之嗎所以我說從台北市黨部到台中市黨部到宜蘭縣黨部你們把不應該帶走的東西而且不可以帶走的東西通通帶走"},{"start":6765.333,"end":6767.914,"text":"請問檢察官或者調查區可以如此濫權嗎這個不是濫權這不叫濫權來來部長講這怎麼叫做不算濫權這是另狀態執行的一個扣押當然如果釐清之後如果說認為沒有留存的必要當然就發還了嘛"},{"start":6781.44,"end":6788.045,"text":"那他為什麼要釐清暫情分析我請問一下這個釐清就可以 如果說這個沒有有可能什麼樣你們都可以帶走裡面所有無關你案情的請問一下你可以把金主名冊帶走嗎你是要去查人家水表嗎你是要去查這些金主的水表嗎可以嗎"},{"start":6807.506,"end":6812.99,"text":"然後另外你說有沒有兩套標準 說都有辦啊請問一下你們有去抄任何民進黨的黨簿民進黨的地方黨簿嗎 有嗎所以怎麼樣 你還可以不發還給人家是不是所以你帶走還帶得很 你覺得很理所當然"},{"start":6832.746,"end":6855.832,"text":"所以這一種這是完全的這完全的就是濫權啊怎麼可以追殺一個政黨追殺到這種地步你巧立一個名目來辦案然後把其他所有不相關的通通帶走這法院合法的搜索票去執行的時間暫停我請那個司法院司法院覆密"},{"start":6863.861,"end":6886.585,"text":"那廳長也上來好了來法部說這次只要你們發了搜索票所以他可以為所欲為 扣所欲口 扣 愛帶走什麼就帶走什麼是這樣嗎 副秘書長跟案情無關的他都可以帶走嗎"},{"start":6889.092,"end":6914.57,"text":"搜索票它是那個令狀主義所以說有關於那個搜索的那個對象跟那個標的物在搜索票上面都有記載好 那請問一下以這個連署的話那麼它應該是跟連署 偽造連署相關的嘛對不對你們難道是說只要比如說你今天搜索台北市黨部台北市黨部所有的一草一木你都可以帶走是這樣嗎"},{"start":6916.227,"end":6937.345,"text":"這個要看那個個案的判斷還有依舊當時申請的時候我想請問一下當你法院發搜索票的時候跟案情無關的相關的文件是不是也可以隨便的帶走隨便的扣押我剛剛講了這個很多都跟案情無關啊一點關係都沒有的"},{"start":6939.417,"end":6967.362,"text":"委員這真的也是要看那個 就是在那個那我剛才所說的這些狀況那麼我們檢調單位在去扣押這些相關的證物的時候有沒有已經逾越了其實法官開搜索票的範圍我剛才說啦你今天罷免連署是這個選區但是呢他去把其他的選區的名冊一併帶走"},{"start":6969.218,"end":6993.472,"text":"或者是他是以罷免這是連署的案子但是他有相關的戰情分析他的戰情分析絕對不是罷免的分析因為還沒有成立你可能是過去的戰情分析可以按照我剛才講的實際的具體案例有沒有逾越了法院所開立搜索票的範圍"},{"start":6994.837,"end":7008.312,"text":"報告委員 就是在那個個案執行的時候就是依那個實際上那個狀況在那個搜索票上面他的這個搜索標的他不會到特定非常特定的一個文件所以副秘書長我們以我們以保障人權"},{"start":7012.617,"end":7035.417,"text":"因為即便被調查者 被調查的 我們本來講就是還沒有那個還未經判決嘛 對不對 我們都是無罪推定嘛我們是無罪推定 那麼可以這樣的由第一線的檢調人員做這樣的一個他完全由他意志 他決定帶走什麼就帶走什麼嗎你覺得這樣的搜索"},{"start":7036.755,"end":7060.26,"text":"在台灣說尊重司法人權要落實司法人權這樣子是合理的嗎合理嗎我剛才講的都是實際案例喔合理嗎因為如果說是非本案的扣押的話他後面還是有救濟程序還是可以經由那個司法再做一次那個審查可是他已經帶走了"},{"start":7061.55,"end":7074.18,"text":"好 所以妳也不敢講說這是合理的嘛 對不對所以我要講的就是說在這一波的這個整個搜索的裡面我們看到不同的地檢署講白話就是殺紅了癮"},{"start":7076.314,"end":7099.449,"text":"而法務部或者調查局完全沒有做任何的節制即便在立法院裡面我們已經提出有這些的疑慮但是他們顯然覺得沒有什麼關係其實你今天對一個在野黨如此你對一般的深斗小民何嘗不是如此呢你只要進去拿了一個搜索票搜索票是萬能的嗎"},{"start":7100.839,"end":7126.039,"text":"搜索票是萬能的嗎你想要扣什麼證物你就扣什麼證物嗎無關的你也可以這樣子去扣嗎如果是這樣的話台灣沒有司法人權可言不是如此嗎另外我也請教副秘書長在昨天在昨天當然你們一定會講個案但是我要請教的是就是"},{"start":7129.414,"end":7150.325,"text":"你們在昨天就是台北市黨部的主委那個黃禮菊如她抗告失敗那當然這是個案但是在你們的新聞稿裡面也就是呢駁回她抗告其中有一部分引起了非常多的討論裡面就是說"},{"start":7153.389,"end":7178.589,"text":"這個黃麗菊奴涉嫌刑法然後有一個重點我紅色框起來且被告與本案其餘共犯間關於政治立場及本案犯行部分均有利害關係所以大家的質疑就是說今天你要不要羈押他難道政治立場也是一個考量的重點嗎按照你們的新聞稿"},{"start":7184.039,"end":7210.998,"text":"抗告駁回的理由其中是他們之間的政治立場所以也就是說不管是檢察官也好或法官也好他當他決定要不要羈押他的時候他要先了解這個當事人的政治立場跟其他被告的政治立場他都要先了解而且如果覺得你們相似的話一樣的話也作為羈押的理由是不是如此"},{"start":7212.223,"end":7231.428,"text":"報告委員 這個確實是個案但是就是依他這個文字上的解讀他這個並不是因為當事人並不是因為那個政治立場所以說那個受到那個羈押與否的一個決定我想這個文字脈絡上並沒有這樣子的一個意思"},{"start":7232.27,"end":7249.089,"text":"那你都放在新聞稿了欸我相信這個判決書一定跟漏漏場啊你知道這個新聞稿是要擷取其中之精華啊然後今天提到他的政治立場這是怎麼樣 制正這次辦案有政治立場的考量嗎"},{"start":7251.291,"end":7279.656,"text":"這是法官也自證我在決定他要不要駁回他抗告的時候我考量當事人的政治立場嗎那個報告委員那個法官就是不管是一憲法或者是那個依法官法呢就是說他絕對是一個獨立審判是要超出那個政治那個政黨的屬性還有那個政治立場的其實我知道在這邊也得不到你們的這個回話因為我想你們也覺得這個到底你要怎麼回答"},{"start":7280.296,"end":7303.105,"text":"我只是覺得齁你們不管檢調或者是法院可以不演到這種程度嗎連政治立場都可以放到這個抗告的新聞稿裡面大拉拉的向上表忠是不是以我來看的話這是要向上表忠的一個新聞稿啊因為我知道黃磊 景如的政治立場太扯了司法真的應該是"},{"start":7310.919,"end":7332.514,"text":"皇后的徵抄但是你們現在操作司法現在變成皇帝的徵抄了有徵抄可言嗎在這一連串的事件裡面你們的操作非常粗暴而且呢完全的雙標而且如果你們覺得不以為意"},{"start":7333.772,"end":7352.506,"text":"即便是下面的人這樣子基層的這樣子的搞法你們還覺得是可以去護航的那麼台灣的司法人權真的真的在這次案子裡面真的完全被踐踏了我覺得大家都難得可以"},{"start":7353.72,"end":7379.35,"text":"在高官上做一些事情但是如果今天做的是把司法人權讓大家看不起其實我覺得這是很悲哀的事情好不好謝謝謝謝王委員那接下來我們請陳冠廷陳冠廷陳冠廷審發會審發會審發會郭育晴郭育晴郭育晴那現在我們請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":7390.283,"end":7413.153,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請法務部部長麻煩部長委員好部長好還有所有的官員 大家辛苦了今天的議題 主要就是我們台灣成為一個詐騙的國家"},{"start":7415.546,"end":7437.753,"text":"這個打擊行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心今天的報告裡面也特別提到這個為了要打詐所以制定了這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例通訊保障及監察法刑事訴訟法特殊強制處分專章也就是科技偵查法制法"},{"start":7438.653,"end":7449.664,"text":"還有洗錢防治法然後在這個打炸事法已經在去年7月已經公佈施行了公佈施行之後我們看這個"},{"start":7451.298,"end":7476.401,"text":"這是今年2月17號的一個新聞詐騙國家國安危機全國遭詐遭詐騙的500億這相當相當的高所以有了這個事實上為了這個打詐成立了很多機關無論是過去新成立的樹花部很多相關的"},{"start":7477.738,"end":7492.966,"text":"人人也增加了很多經費也增加了很多法也制定了但是我們的這個整個招詐的金額相關的件數不斷不斷的增加"},{"start":7494.048,"end":7520.211,"text":"所以這個部分這個部長當然還有相關的機關這個我今天看了你們的法務部的報告這個檢討的因應的作為好像不高不多這個從你的報告裡面這樣的一個好像就是就這樣過所以這個部分"},{"start":7522.11,"end":7544.191,"text":"你看我們這個近五年的詐欺案件數及財務的財損不斷不斷的升高從2020年一直到現在去年502億這樣的一個金額逐年的增加所以這樣的一個情形之下"},{"start":7546.039,"end":7568.543,"text":"日常交易啊人民就受到很大的恐慌到底成為怎麼樣連日常的交易都成為詐騙的溫床事實上這個整個無論是法務部當然現在最辛苦的是警察啦其實最辛苦的警察但是司法機關檢調單位就從這段時間都往哪裡"},{"start":7577.003,"end":7602.464,"text":"就誠如陳水扁總統講的清算在野勢力這些嫌棄的案件就是清算把時間人力都移到那邊去了花了這麼多的人力在那邊剛才講的個案已經發生的個案需要檢討的就要趕快通令所有的檢調單位要檢討啊"},{"start":7604.96,"end":7628.205,"text":"不該拿走的文件 中選會的公文拿走了連署人要去 體育人要去送件的時候就沒有公文類似像這樣的你不能說這是個案 不能討論已經發生的個案就要檢討就要通知所有的檢調機關要檢討 要審慎"},{"start":7634.385,"end":7659.764,"text":"譬如說剛才講的相關的這些搜索不過具體的話司法院要把它具體化因為已經發生這種爛錢的搜索了所以這個部分都是需要去檢討當然這樣的一個詐騙有了法有了人仍然這麼嚴重"},{"start":7661.909,"end":7688.738,"text":"所以雖然這裡報告裡面強化民眾防詐意識其實是要從國家開始我們的政府從國家真的是一個詐騙一個政務官在民眾面前講租屋的補助被砍傷了幼兒津貼被砍傷了"},{"start":7691.226,"end":7717.291,"text":"一個政務官這不是詐騙嗎 詐騙從政府裡面出現詐騙那人民到底要怎麼相信 相信誰啊部長你可能還有司法院還有調查局的可能不了解我們的明白為了網路啊"},{"start":7720.08,"end":7748.79,"text":"我們常常要去說明網路啊說這個被刪了這個被砍了預算被刪了我們常常要去說明很忙啊有的是政務官的有的是立法委員的有的是網軍的成為台灣已經成為一個詐騙國家這個都是我們司法機關"},{"start":7751.751,"end":7778.419,"text":"檢調商會要去包括我們所有的政務官尤其是這個好我們看這個對不對中選會公布謝國良罷免案的調查報告裡面提到基隆選委會九大威師事實上他談的不是選委會的九大威師我這邊要談的不是"},{"start":7779.628,"end":7805.256,"text":"中選會表示提議人名冊是查對提議人有未照情勢的經該會刪除 經中選會刪除的557人其中有319人未照未照啊 中選會已經寫未照中選會已經明確地說未照啊都沒有辦啊 對不對"},{"start":7807.96,"end":7833.871,"text":"這非常非常的一個所以這個部分啊這個上次我也提到啊上次我也提到這個台灣怎麼會淪落到這樣的一個地步陳水扁總統講得很清楚他說清算在野勢力這個就是"},{"start":7835.754,"end":7862.422,"text":"檢調單位配合清算在野勢力所以這個部分尤其是我們公務人員出身的怎麼樣去針對政務官壽命以上面事務官就應該要抗計把司法把相關我們台灣的一個不要說到一直"},{"start":7863.447,"end":7865.008,"text":"成為一個詐騙國家以上 謝謝"},{"start":7888.905,"end":7911.139,"text":"有請司法院副秘書長 法務部部長然後內政部警政署署長還有抒發部副署長好副署長委員長我想請問我們這位四位首長我們現在台灣的詐騙問題也不嚴重先請司法院好了也不嚴重"},{"start":7911.835,"end":7935.925,"text":"那個 我們從收案量來看 司法院第一線收案量來看就知道很嚴重非常嚴重 是那我再想請我們的部長 嚴重嗎這個詐騙的確是全民公敵那我們檢察官收案負擔是很嚴重那我們就是強力地掃蕩 也獲得一些的成果警政署"},{"start":7937.785,"end":7959.292,"text":"對 現在詐騙是算國內的治安面是算比較嚴重的好 我們來速發部我們同意現在其實確實詐騙是嚴重的好 你看我們今天很好我們四位首長的共識 台灣詐騙非常嚴重我先分享一個個案 我再從總體來看我們現在詐騙有多嚴重"},{"start":7962.267,"end":7990.379,"text":"我最近實際上是挨家挨戶在我的選區送感謝信所以路上我會遇到很多的民眾那很多民眾會跟我去談各式各樣的問題有時候是選民陳情有時候要遇到什麼樣的狀況那我就是一意的傾聽你知道我在路上遇到非常多的其中一個太陽是在抱怨哪一件事情嗎部長你知道嗎 猜猜看請我們的司法院副秘書長"},{"start":7991.69,"end":8019.655,"text":"就是我剛剛講的題目詐騙詐騙真的很嚴重我遇到一個老太太她看到我就哭了她說她被詐騙了好幾百萬她說追不回來她很難過她說雖然家人其實對她來講那也是個財務很大的一個負擔但家人還算體諒都在安慰她但她覺得她自己過不去"},{"start":8020.814,"end":8046.696,"text":"他覺得他自己心裡過不去然後他說這些錢他也追不回來了這是我遇到的許多個案當中的一個我們的詐騙問題有多嚴重已經變成國恥了吧我想這句話我不知道我們部長認不認同已經是台灣對人民來講詐騙已經是非常痛苦的一件事情了沒錯吧 部長"},{"start":8049.035,"end":8060.36,"text":"我剛才講說詐騙這個是全民公敵我想我們經過這一陣子打造司法的一個通過從源頭的一個行政管制註決了很多的詐騙"},{"start":8064.793,"end":8087.817,"text":"那林貴的這部分也提醒了民眾免受詐騙那另外我們強力掃蕩也獲得一些的成果那我想這部分大家是很努力的來 我來看一下 希望說整個一個讓這個詐騙應該現在有個反轉的已經往下的一個跡象了這是我們打造市 非常謝謝您的往下今年3月詐騙的財損是多少錢部長"},{"start":8093.345,"end":8099.23,"text":"這個財損是要有70億比2月成長了多少2月份大概60億左右到4月變到多少大概75億左右我的數字是76.5億"},{"start":8117.987,"end":8137.861,"text":"再多了將近7.9%我想是不是把這個趨勢跟大家報告一下就是說我們打詐司法之後經過這個努力之後的一個趨勢那從打詐司法這次去年7月我先跟你講一個最簡單的人民的感受跟現在實際的狀況"},{"start":8141.345,"end":8153.443,"text":"人民的感受我在路上走就是感受人民對詐騙真的是深惡痛絕啊這個感受沒錯吧沒錯 我覺得還是有努力的空間啦來持續再做努力謝謝 繼續努力所以我覺得部長不要鬆懈"},{"start":8159.492,"end":8183.547,"text":"保護部啊 先聽我講完啦這個沒有鬆懈 如果有鬆懈的話我們怎麼可能會好啦 我改個詞彙啦我改個詞彙啦我改個詞彙啦詐騙157億 被害人達到5080人起訴80人 這個還押了50幾個齁那這個我想這是整一個打造團隊的一個努力那我想這部分是有目共睹的啦那這跟委員做一個報告我跟部長說啊"},{"start":8186.788,"end":8210.047,"text":"實際上的成績跟人民的感受我剛都講了不管是從財損來講從這邊感受當然我沒有否定我們這司法單位你們對打詐的一些努力我沒有否定啦可是作為部長我覺得你要有更多的同理心去看看民眾的痛苦就像說今天你去看看我遇到那個民眾的痛苦他痛不痛苦請問部長"},{"start":8215.066,"end":8223.804,"text":"我想這個我們都是跟民眾的感受是一樣的請署長好了所以我們才會大力的一個掃蕩那從源頭"},{"start":8226.041,"end":8237.011,"text":"才跨部會的一個整合心再柔軟一點啦謝謝你這個我們就是有一再的所以說我們一直在偵查中的案件要求要大力的查扣然後呢罪章反反然後彌補被害人的損害因為被害人真的很可憐所以我們在努力的是要求他們一定要調解和解"},{"start":8251.204,"end":8273.076,"text":"去賠償被害人的這種的一個損失然後當作良心的一個參考所以這個要給被害人的一些的保障所以我們在落實對詐欺危害防治對被害人的一個保障我想這部分當然我們還自己在努力啦我想我對部長真的是很尊敬也尊重嘛 對不對"},{"start":8274.246,"end":8292.928,"text":"你剛剛講話也不打斷你 讓你講 雖然我質詢時間有限了可是我今天其實只講一件事情人民的痛苦 我相信署長感受到吧我是站在民眾的同理心上去看待事情要的沒有別的啦 就這份同理心啦"},{"start":8293.919,"end":8312.217,"text":"那接下來講 我最近看到打詐有些狀況 我也不得不說我覺得行政部門好像打詐有些矛盾 我想要釐清一下前政署發部官員在接受侯孟楷委員質詢說聲稱詐騙廣告無法裁罰是因為內政部沒有提供資料"},{"start":8313.078,"end":8334.218,"text":"那當然刑事局發新聞稿嚴正澄清說截至今年已經通報業者下架3.8萬件詐騙廣告已經匯整移交速發布要求依法懲處我想請問一下速發布刑事局的新聞稿是真的嗎你們兩單位有什麼誤解嗎他們都移交給你們了嗎"},{"start":8335.194,"end":8359.821,"text":"是的 報告委員我想這個部分是有些時間的落差性就是有關於3.8萬件的這個部分確實已經都有通知這個網路平台業者去依法下架所以這個部分有在期限內去做下架這個部分沒有裁罰的問題那至於第二個就是說有關於這個內政部他移送15件案件給我們的這個部分確實有一點時間的落差"},{"start":8362.161,"end":8386.514,"text":"在我們上個禮拜5月1號的時候我先跟書發部說啦所以妳也承認有移送嘛是的然後又跟我講一個叫時間差那我只能說妳書發部是狀況外連時間差都沒掌握嗎妳書發部可以在質詢的時候官員可以推給什麼內政部嗎妳如果已經承認是有移送資料啦"},{"start":8387.174,"end":8394.381,"text":"5月1號的早上9點來我想請教一下我想請教一下請問警政署署長剛剛我們的抒發部官員這樣回答我想我們未來會再加強互相的這個聯繫跟聯繫上的一個合作的一個關係對啊我覺得你們詐騙彼此要齊心一點"},{"start":8414.991,"end":8424.16,"text":"不要遇到責任就開始第一件事想要就先推還先推給自己其他的部會這不是一個政府通力合作的一個做法"},{"start":8425.489,"end":8453.028,"text":"我要跟各位說啦根據統計2021年到2023年刑警人均移送案件數是從62.69件上升到84.56件那三年工作量暴增35%嘛 署長對不對對 沒錯那也因此造成我們現在全國偵查所人力有14%的預算缺額那基層負擔也非常重嘛 對不對對"},{"start":8454.429,"end":8478.3,"text":"所以因此其實警察負責的我認為是事後的偵辦跟追查這是主要你們的主力在這個地方嘛但是詐騙廣告釣魚網站網路詐騙的源頭管制我必須講書發部這不能推給內政部啦不能推給我們那個警政署啦你們才是職責之所在吧"},{"start":8479.42,"end":8504.716,"text":"是 跟委員報告 這個部分來講的話其實我們在今年的打炸綱02.0開始上路之後肅發部是防炸的主政機關在這裡面呢 我們也做了許多的一些措施我直接講個結論啦我真的覺得積極度是不夠那我要特別講 我要問一下警政署啊你們現在在追查詐騙食物上網路廣告管制層面上有沒有遇到什麼問題希望肅發部來協助的"},{"start":8507.27,"end":8520.617,"text":"我們現在遇到的問題就是這個廣告商雖然有實名制但是還不斷的重複在下廣告所以源頭一定要止住那如果源頭不止住這些廣告商的話一定要跟他處罰啦"},{"start":8522.011,"end":8536.744,"text":"一定要處罰 他自己廣告商 炸房條例本來就有規範很清楚他有自主要去做管理 要去做這樣的一個責任但是他不做的話 法已經有規範如果違反這個規範 一定要處罰了"},{"start":8538.46,"end":8565.635,"text":"來 我們請已經承認你現在是你的主責業務的書發部警政署的聲音聽到了沒有有的 我們其實跟警政署一直都有在做聯繫包括說上個禮拜移送過來的15個案件我們也已經在昨天跟警政署還有司法單位一起來研究這15個案子目前應該有一個案子有疑似資料接錄不實的部分我做個結論書發部的工作極小讓國人來評價"},{"start":8567.742,"end":8591.281,"text":"但是無論如何 不要把責任推給基層員警打詐事後當然去追很重要可是你那事前的洞沒有補齊 你是累死員警現在尤其打詐團的詐騙技術 網路上的做法真的是日新月異你今天靠基層員警去抓 事後去抓 怎麼抓得完他利潤又這麼的大"},{"start":8592.833,"end":8614.831,"text":"所以今天速發部要把這個事情放在肩膀上去想想看你今天如果你沒有在源頭上把這些詐騙的一些漏洞把它縮緊一點的話你就累死所有警察也抓不完詐騙啊我每天到地上跑活動我都看到我們的員警在那邊宣導反詐騙為什麼"},{"start":8617.594,"end":8645.028,"text":"因為詐騙真的很嚴重 幾乎每一個活動沒錯吧 署長每個活動都我們的警察同仁在宣導反詐騙吧沒有錯幾乎每一個啦所以我都已經熟到變老朋友了啦因為都是警察同仁這邊宣導反詐騙所以我要跟我們政府部門說啊就是說基本上請你們的合作能夠更緊密啊最後我還是要講一下前面的質詢啦"},{"start":8646.414,"end":8671.444,"text":"我跟部長說我剛剛看到您的答詢答我還是要講一句話我說司法資源是有限的我今天也真的還是很遺憾我念幾個我們的司法人員在媒體受訪的一個感慨然後給我們部長參考他說有基層檢察官受訪說政治介入司法 招橫太明顯"},{"start":8672.802,"end":8696.446,"text":"醫生職責守護捍衛追求的司法爭議現在已經被總統跟執政的民進黨完全破壞殆盡也有調查員受訪指出在調查局裡只要有一點良心曾經辦過案的調查員都私下感嘆整個調查系統從上到下早已失去風骨 睜眼說瞎話只要跟對組織就可能升官發財 私下難看讓人感怒不敢言"},{"start":8696.986,"end":8719.659,"text":"有資深檢察官受訪指出現在好像你隨地吐個痰檢調都可以把你辦成殺人放火重罪檢調司法警政首長全市總統清點的人馬猶如一條鞭作業全部只聽命於一人展現出效忠組織的大動作各地檢調單位還爭相求表現希望讓長官看到也有資深檢察官受訪時說"},{"start":8721.46,"end":8749.362,"text":"在野黨台南宜蘭台北新北黨部陸續遭到檢調搜索檢察官佛曉初級帶隊抓人講得難聽一點就算是重罪五年以上刑責的販毒被告也只是在家收傳票到庭說明而不實聯署書所涉及的偽造文書涉罪重是五年以下刑責卻要大陣仗搜索歹人羈押押人不成為達目的一再抗告"},{"start":8749.822,"end":8770.377,"text":"那麼嚴重不服羈押比例原則我知道部長你不會認同這些話啦對我是不會認同因為我在否認說所謂的什麼去介入因為我一直在強調說個案我們都不介入不干涉不指導嘛部長我跟你已經相處一年了你回答的標準公式我也知道那這個本來就是沒有去介入嘛我要先跟部長說"},{"start":8772.165,"end":8797.646,"text":"就像剛剛我問人民的詐騙情感的時候你竟然可以嘟弄了半天連人民的情感你都沒有辦法正面的回應我要跟你講就是說基本上我非常了解部長啊我非常了解部長今天只要是對現在的檢察官對法務部對我們現在執政黨有所指責的部分你都不會放在心上嗎"},{"start":8799.215,"end":8815.78,"text":"今天但是社會上有一把尺在那裡啦我還是做一個簡單的結論這歷史有兩種比較一個就是垂直 一個叫水平垂直比較是從古到今我就直接講嘛你之前問了多少次 你們也答不出來有哪一個總統"},{"start":8817.675,"end":8844.131,"text":"陳水扁 馬英九 蔡英文 李登輝到賴清德有哪一個總統執政任內他的司法檢調全台灣大市搜索在野黨黨部並且關押在野黨黨的幹部只有一個啦 賴清德那第二個今天到底有哪一個總統在任內會去以黨主席身份下令要求全黨公職來發動大罷免"},{"start":8846.38,"end":8872.915,"text":"李登輝沒有 蔡英文沒有 陳水扁也沒有 馬英九也沒有啊只有我們天眾英明的賴清德總統有啊你是賴清德總統 賴政府嘛 民進黨 清典的官我不會對你有期待太高啦 你也不可能講出忤逆他們的話但是這些鐵針針 鐵罩罩的歷史事實擺在眼前不管說今天你們怎麼講 我也要講一個今天剛剛中憲委員會 王紅委員資訊重點只有一個"},{"start":8873.959,"end":8897.086,"text":"作弊當然都要抓 我也不反對作弊要抓可是我看到一個是重如泰山的抓 一個輕如鴻毛的燒我告訴你 人民沒有那麼盲目 看得清清楚楚今天如果說這麼多的一個案件 是這種狀況的話我告訴你 大家看得清楚 最後一個結論講完"},{"start":8902.01,"end":8923.087,"text":"這麼多的力量這麼多的司法資源你放在一個剛剛吳宗憲我已經問過了以前從來不去啟用的所謂的績效的一個方式現在用績效去獎勵去抓了之後你有沒有想過站在後面的警政署啊有沒有想過站在後面的員警啊有沒有想過站在後面的老百姓啊"},{"start":8924.571,"end":8931.097,"text":"如果你今天有說一個陳菊走了問號能夠4小時逮人的效率去辦詐騙"},{"start":8933.103,"end":8960.152,"text":"我剛剛一開始講的 那位太太通力合作 權力掃蕩的喔這個都是因為人民的苦 我們感同身受所以我們才會強力的掃蕩 才會打造司法的通過才會聯合在源頭的管制所以我們當然可以做得更好 我們一直都覺得我們做得不夠部長 你知道我現在質詢你 你也知道我對你都很尊重"},{"start":8961.38,"end":8989.738,"text":"就像你剛剛一講話你也沒回答我問題 我還是讓你回答我講的是什麼 我講的跟你有矛盾嗎我講的跟你有矛盾嗎 我講一個最簡單的點啊今天司法資源就是有限的啊今天我今天遇到那位老太太她被詐騙幾百萬抱著我哭這就是鐵針針人民的現實啊那我剛剛說今天有人說陳菊走了問號在網路上問這句問號四小時逮到人難道不是事實嗎"},{"start":8991.109,"end":9002.072,"text":"可是今天我說你的辦詐騙效率如果有像擺陳菊走了問號這樣的四個小時的績效的話也許那位老太太就不用抱著我哭啊謝謝你啊"},{"start":9017.762,"end":9039.607,"text":"那這個部分因為吳委員有需要那我們就改為吳委員結束之後再休息五分鐘部長還有複密你們回去看一下法官論壇還有檢察官論壇很多基層的法官檢察官在抱怨政治辦案你們回去看一下論壇那個外人進不去的封閉式論壇你們可以看看那我們下一位請麥玉珍委員發言"},{"start":9047.458,"end":9062.081,"text":"主席好有請法務部長還有警政署署長署長委員好"},{"start":9065.107,"end":9091.514,"text":"部長好我們在今年4月聯合國發表報告我們適度點名台灣是國際詐騙重災區所以台灣是被為亞洲跨國詐騙集團的重要的據點之一也恭喜我們賴總統讓台灣被世界看到的目標4月份有"},{"start":9093.775,"end":9098.519,"text":"79名台灣人被柬埔寨逮捕後不是"},{"start":9100.003,"end":9126.774,"text":"遣返回台是接受司法審查而是直接送到中國請問我們的司法管轄區在哪裡這179名的台籍人士你們有沒有掌握身份名單有沒有舉動我們的偵查程序他們當中有沒有人早就是涉及我們國內的詐騙集團案件你們是否有掌握"},{"start":9127.794,"end":9136.282,"text":"他們的在台我們的這樣子的案件的記錄嗎還是說早已經完全脫離法務部的視野"},{"start":9141.665,"end":9158.951,"text":"那這個部分就是之前在柬埔寨的一個我們台籍人士可能涉及這個詐騙那我們有駐外的一個警察的這個聯絡官有去配合外交部去做一個瞭解"},{"start":9159.491,"end":9177.59,"text":"那現在這個人員的這個名單跟涉案的情節也正在了解當中那不過做初步的了解這一些的人應該是詐騙大陸的這一個相關的一個這個情資的這個狀況的方向目前掌握的大概是這樣子"},{"start":9178.792,"end":9203.952,"text":"所以說到今天還是沒有名單也沒有就是調查舉動那我們來請教一下是不是說我們政府已經主動放棄我們本國國民的司法管轄區呢還是說對 我再進一步請教對於就是前往柬埔寨緬甸這樣子的從事你們覺得是詐騙是不是國人這樣我們法務部有沒有任何的源頭的預防"},{"start":9205.939,"end":9231.487,"text":"有嗎跟委員報告那這邊保護部已經透過兩岸共打協議管道是聯絡陸方那要求陸方就依照我們兩岸共打協議來進行通報來保障來國人的權益那這部分我想我們一直在努力跟陸方再做一個聯絡我們希望能夠遣返"},{"start":9233.806,"end":9255.006,"text":"這我們問的是說你們有沒有掌握這個名單有沒有跨部會的調查有沒有說要求就是說我們的這些跟你們的就是台灣現在詐騙我們台灣的記錄的名單有沒有在裡面有沒有掌握我們的司法部這樣子都是在調查在研議的話我們人民對"},{"start":9256.067,"end":9273.943,"text":"就是這個法務部真的信任度在哪裡我們一定要了解這不是在研議已經現在已經跟陸方在做一個透過兩岸共打協議管道在聯絡在一個洽商之中了嘛所以你們是有名單了這個名單還要叫陸方要提供給我們嘛有嗎那現在還在聯絡還在協議"},{"start":9280.33,"end":9297.609,"text":"在那個接洽的時候所以協議到什麼時候這個我沒辦法去做跟那個保證就是等待嘛這邊神被動不能主動這個我們主動跟人家聯絡怎麼不是呢對 所以說我們就是主動但是還沒有明目嘛所以要問說都沒有明目"},{"start":9299.174,"end":9322.376,"text":"所以好再來我們就是就問也是沒有名目嘛所以我們希望說有名目這樣對我們一天被詐騙就是兩億的我們被詐騙的人民要有一個交代啦我們才能是真的是追回這個經費這樣才是我們要的這個騙的是因為是被害人是大陸人士啊"},{"start":9323.356,"end":9333.441,"text":"你明確這個是被害人都是大陸人數沒有我們的國民嗎?百分之百確定嗎?你百分之百確定這些嗎?你有沒有百分之百確定?他們詐騙是真的沒有我們的國民嗎?你有百分之百確定嗎?"},{"start":9344.517,"end":9351.908,"text":"你是猜測而已嘛這不是猜測 這是一個訊息 一個報導嘛報導 所以你都看報導來辦事的不是你們整個團隊去辦事的"},{"start":9356.601,"end":9380.849,"text":"所以我們再來再問我們的警政署署長現在我們就是不只守住我們國人還有連台灣在我們的移工在台灣也成為詐騙集團的眼中的肥羊最近在臉書冒用我們勞動部職聘中心的名義對移工進行詐騙還有要求叫"},{"start":9383.771,"end":9408.607,"text":"就是我們的證件費 還有結果也是受害了 就是財務損失所以我們要請教說 這個案子我們的警政署有沒有真實的立案偵查還有說有沒有追查到社團經營的IP來源還有沒有掌握相關的金流還有我們有沒有啟動這樣子的監管 這個部分"},{"start":9412.932,"end":9441.682,"text":"好這個部分我們發現有些詐團有一些對車手的這個部分是去類似徵採國外的徵採或者是外籍的這個移工那我們經過這個訊息我們警方大概會了解這個源頭來做一個偵查那我們對於這個潮這個外籍的車子也是這個數量也是非常多也是非常多那目前這個狀況應該有初步的一個遏制"},{"start":9442.142,"end":9444.626,"text":"那我們也會跟隨時跟移民署跟勞動部來隨時聯繫的這個這相關的這個訊息未來會更加強這源頭的這個這個查集"},{"start":9454.131,"end":9470.497,"text":"但是我們就是說因為語言隔閡還有資訊不對等所以我們是假用我們政府的機關來去做一個陷阱所以面對那個假冒政府的單位我們也是一個弱勢被詐騙的案子"},{"start":9472.538,"end":9494.783,"text":"所以我們有沒有依照打詐事法列入這樣子的辦案有沒有說就是冒名這樣官方的網站官方的名義去詐騙所以我們是要如何去協助因為我們看到你們的有一個網站就是說為了國外的網站但是全部"},{"start":9496.26,"end":9521.55,"text":"都是中文連英文都沒有所以說這個是在台灣我們現在是我們國外的人很多所以在詐騙裡面的經費被詐騙的也包含在裡面但是說我們現在都面臨這樣子的一個不只是國內的人國外人只要居住台灣的都有被詐騙所以我們希望說有沒有具體的"},{"start":9524.236,"end":9537.396,"text":"委員的意思是什麼樣的就是具體的部位是因為我們現在我們台灣已經說今天講的是我們是已經是很有名的國際有名的詐騙的一個管轄區"},{"start":9539.899,"end":9543.661,"text":"所以我們不能是讓說送去中國還沒有還沒有判的我們的國民還有移工被詐騙集團就變成是提款機我們政府現在的單位有沒有去研議所以說去了解我們的這次的職責我們聯合國也四度啊 四度點名所以我們希望說我們不能再假裝不知道啦我們團隊是一直在努力沒有不知道啦"},{"start":9567.435,"end":9587.39,"text":"不要讓我們的詐騙集團他們的台灣是一個溫泉所以我們希望說我們台灣這邊是不是說真正的做事的政府所以我們台灣現在新住民有60萬人移工有85萬人僑生有十幾萬人還有投資的還沒有算"},{"start":9588.632,"end":9606.694,"text":"所以我希望我們的警政署是不是設一個國際打仗特別小組才能是跨部會跨國來合作的一個單位我報告一下這個是一個整體概念不是說腳痛一頭頭痛一腳那現在政府機關有"},{"start":9608.355,"end":9623.45,"text":"團隊的一個打炸的一個指揮中心包括各部會是團體在一起有法律的依據那也面對這個炸機的趨勢做聚焦的打擊我們不是完全都不知不知的話那這個我覺得這個講這個太沉重了那現在"},{"start":9624.671,"end":9651.261,"text":"炸機的這個趨勢也不斷的演變那我們也不斷的改變這個打造的這個策略那從去年的打造事法到目前為止我們已經對於案件的發生數跟案件的財損數已經有往下降的趨勢是有劣勁成效但是仍然有努力的空間我們是有有方法有團隊一起來做打造我想這個我委員應該對我們應該有信心"},{"start":9651.561,"end":9675.461,"text":"有方法有團隊但是我們現在的就是我們已經被點名四次了所以我現在是我們要來的是協助解決問題不是說我們有很偉大的多少部門但是問題的效果我們要的效果我們效果現在已經有成效了台灣有那麼多外國人別人可以利用"},{"start":9676.121,"end":9677.623,"text":"就是不同語言去詐騙不同國家的人在我們台灣但是我們呢我們有那麼多人在台灣為什麼我們不要去用一個國際打詐的一個小組團隊用這一群人來去協助你去打詐"},{"start":9694.962,"end":9711.673,"text":"這樣子的話我們可以跨部會又可以有效的這樣子對我們的國民也好對海外的詐騙集團也好也有對我們國民有幫助嘛所以我們希望說我們要有這樣子的一個國際打詐的小組"},{"start":9712.753,"end":9740.814,"text":"應用我們台灣有的資源有不同國家的語言這樣才更有效力啊我沒有說我們現在做的說多不好但是我們是建議說我們多一個管道多一個方法才對我們國民更有幫助希望我們的署長還有我們的法務部我們還有民民署我們跨部會的如何才不會讓說別人這樣子去點名我們就是東南亞的"},{"start":9742.255,"end":9765.354,"text":"的一個角色所以我們是要並說就是強化數位的增長希望是這樣因為時間有限所以我們希望說我們的各個部會要來跨部會來如何就是成立這樣子的一個多一個打架的小組對我們才真正的有幫助我的目的是這樣好 謝謝"},{"start":9769.182,"end":9784.462,"text":"好 謝謝 那下一位我們請李坤澄委員發言謝謝主席 我們請這個法務部的鄭部長麻煩部長"},{"start":9790.547,"end":9819.827,"text":"委員好來 部長好 辛苦了這個本席先請教那有一位政治人物他講這個與其去打壓罷免不如來好好的來打仗那你對這句話的看法怎麼樣謝謝委員長那個打仗是非常非常重要的那這個罷免這個是因為腐蝕人民那個民主政治的儲值所以是非常重要而且你圍繞一個鼠鴨救一個被害人"},{"start":9820.447,"end":9834.053,"text":"那圍繞很多人這可能會影響很多的民主政治他我們用票選出來的這些的候選人那我想這個嚴重影響這個民主政治的因為我們是一個民主一個是一個透過選舉罷免讓我們人民的參政權"},{"start":9837.535,"end":9855.879,"text":"能夠落實這才是民主法治國家那委員剛剛講了說這樣的有些關心那個打仗當然我們打仗的確是很嚴重權勢很重而且我們在台灣我們不希望打仗成為全民之痛所以我們將心比心我們雖然沒有被騙但是因為我們的辦案人員能夠體系說這個詐騙這個是讓我們的社會的穩定"},{"start":9863.749,"end":9879.428,"text":"非常的嚴重所以我們是全力的打詐所以部長意思是說去查偽造連署的去查死人連署的跟打詐是一樣重要嗎都非常重要都一樣重要一個是侵蝕這個我們這個民主法制的基礎是那另外詐騙呢那當然是死非安定嘛"},{"start":9880.837,"end":9904.031,"text":"每個人不管是你本身或是說你的親朋好友可能都有類似這個案件那我就來問你 因為今天的題目有提到說這個聯合國毒品跟犯罪問題辦公室它有一個infraction point這個報告那早上有很多委員都問過那因為它有提到說是台灣那我先請問一下這份報告到底真實性如何"},{"start":9904.471,"end":9920.499,"text":"那跟他上面所提到不論是幫派或是說這個線上的博弈這個BG1 BG2等等之類的你們有去了解這個整個情況是怎麼樣嗎那如果跟他所描述的不實的話有沒有管道去做澄清跟說明"},{"start":9921.36,"end":9944.605,"text":"那這部分的確說來自聯合國毒品及犯罪問題的一個辦公室下載的但這些報告有說明這份報告雖然是由員工跟專家編寫但內容沒有經過正式的編輯跟確認所以不代表這個辦公室當然它代不代表是另外一回事我是說它寫的這個東西有沒有符合現實的狀況"},{"start":9946.953,"end":9973.393,"text":"這個沒有符合現實的就是說他所寫描述的東西他這個都是跟台灣你們所了解的現實的是不是完全是不一樣的是不一樣的而且這裡面的話他是沒有政府關鍵文件所以這個一個立場雖然是有提到說什麼涉及到毒品那個詐欺什麼幫派的但是這裡面也沒有人名也沒有那個公司名所以我們也試圖去了解去注意當然我們一直持續在注意"},{"start":9976.095,"end":10002.89,"text":"所以就像哈索提到說有什麼這個線上博弈BG1 BG2然後了解一些幫派等等你們 據你們了解沒有像他這個這個調查局我們也是請調查局就一個了解嘛當然有些三合會的那一部分當然我也做一個法辦了嘛但也不是因為這份報告我們才去法辦而且我們一直持續在注意幫派那如果像部長所講就是說哈索裡面所這些報告的內容其實"},{"start":10004.04,"end":10022.107,"text":"可信度是還要再查證啦那如果說這個是跟現狀不符的話有沒有管道去做澄清跟說明因為其實這個報告出來那不管怎麼樣因為他是掛一個聯合國的一個報告嘛一個毒品犯罪問題辦公室的一個報告有沒有管道去澄清跟去說明"},{"start":10022.887,"end":10046.554,"text":"目前台灣的狀況是怎麼樣我想我們在查證後我們再做一個澄清那我想如果有的話那我們當然要檢討不論是法務部調查局或是警政署要做檢討那如果沒有的話我認為還是要去做個說明因為這對於台灣的這個形象會有影響啊還把這個台灣跟這些東南亞一些國家掛在一起那好像說我們台灣的這些問題跟他們一樣有嚴重啊"},{"start":10047.045,"end":10061.56,"text":"而且他是掛一個POC這個是對我們非常不友善的這又是另外一個問題啦那另外我想請教一下那個我們這個馬市長你現在是這個哪吒中心的指揮官嘛那部長這個先請回"},{"start":10070.441,"end":10088.56,"text":"這個五月四號媒體有披露說這個詐團利用這個監理服務網的電子郵件然後說你這個民眾有交通違規預期的那附一個email給你然後點進去之後那其實就是一個釣魚的網站然後要收集你的個資那其實我在四月初的時候就收到澄清"},{"start":10089.201,"end":10115.814,"text":"就是說他有交通違規但是有交通違規呢他是3月20號他說他沒有做任何的繳款動作暫時在4月4號就收到詐騙的信件所以他高度懷疑啦那會不會說是我們的這個監理所其實也被我不知道是被入侵了被駭客入侵了還是說詐團就是說我們的監理所跟詐團之間是不是有某種程度的配合就是說民眾違規這件事情"},{"start":10117.844,"end":10146.096,"text":"然後呢他過沒多久他就收到一個一個詐騙的一個信件就是說啊你已經違規了那奇怪了那怎麼詐團會知道這種違規的事情你們有沒有去了解我跟委員報告我們有收到我們有收到類似的案件那每一次我們收到類似案件基本上我們都會請當事的部會我們會列管而且去找清楚原因那就這個監理站這個問題這個問題的背後當然一定是跟個資外協有關但是他的管道我們現在還不知道"},{"start":10146.676,"end":10173.016,"text":"因為對於這個監理單位的這個包括有停車費的問題也包括有剛剛委員提到罰單的問題那我們最近還有很多民眾接到就是醫院要領藥這樣的一個訊息其實我們現在都有在每一次接到這樣的類似的個案的時候我們都會對外發布新聞說明就有這樣的個案請民眾要注意那這是事後了啦我那時候你要去查"},{"start":10173.616,"end":10193.156,"text":"他就說那為什麼像監理單位或是說像醫院這些個資會外洩因為這些個資外洩就表示說這有可能是潛在的被詐騙的一些對象啊對所以這個部分跟委員報告我們會跟行政院各支處的籌備處來合作去處理這個問題那所以呢到現在還沒有找到原因在哪裡就對了"},{"start":10193.997,"end":10217.384,"text":"我們可能後續我們跟那個各支會討論確認以後我們跟委員回報因為他後面的原因蠻複雜的這樣子因為我是比較擔心就是說因為他是監禮站那監禮站有民眾會覺得說那是公家機關所以他給的一些訊息有些人就是覺得說啊好啦那既然有這個未違規了然後既然有一個這麼簡便的一個方式我可以直接線上交款那可能就被詐騙了啦"},{"start":10218.584,"end":10242.826,"text":"所以這部分的話我是希望說 不論是這個我們的監理站或是說其他我們很多的公家機關 我都很擔心都已經各自外洩了這個已經被這個詐團攻陷了 那所以我們很多這個民眾的各自都外流那淪為被詐騙的潛在的對象 那我覺得這部分要去查清楚你講那個發布什麼新聞 那個都是事後的啦"},{"start":10243.506,"end":10258.993,"text":"對委員這個部分個案能不能把資料給我們我們就直接來處理因為從個案可以追到很多的通案好啊沒問題啊我們每一次只要接到個案我們都會從個案去追通案好所以我這個個案會給你啦好那我不好意思我最後再請教一下這一個正部長齁這個簡單問一下不好意思這個齁"},{"start":10264.256,"end":10289.316,"text":"貴婦奶奶她逃亡七年 吸金上億 前幾天回來投案吸金上億 結果兩百萬就交保好像是她的公公吧好像之前也回來投案 五十萬就交保這個民眾會覺得說 詐騙吸金上億 花個兩百萬就可以交保後續這些錢也可能追查不回來"},{"start":10290.097,"end":10305.674,"text":"就民眾會覺得說 那奇怪了 那所以這個詐騙是一門好生意嗎我可以吸金上業人 然後反正我交保就只有兩百萬那最後刑責 也不知道怎麼樣啦那我就覺得說 這方面的話 對於民眾來講社會觀感是非常的不好啦"},{"start":10308.08,"end":10336.755,"text":"局長這個交保金是回來投案之後就給他交保兩百萬那檢察官給他限制出境出海給他做電子監控那我想是不是要羈押我想這個我也只能說我尊重沒有我是尊重啦我是講說整體的社會觀感我沒有去介入說這一個到底是兩百萬還是五百萬還是一千萬我不是指這個意思我的意思是說現在為什麼詐騙集團這麼犯呢原因之一就是說他很容易交保"},{"start":10337.395,"end":10356.895,"text":"然後交保金也很低然後呢 刑責可能也不重那所以說會演變成是說那大家覺得說這個好像投報率很高我想委員的這個寶貴反映民眾的聲音我想陳判決他應該會聽得到好啦 就反映一些民眾的聲音給你們啦好 謝謝 加油啦好 謝謝好 謝謝那下一位我們請吳思瑤委員發言"},{"start":10372.627,"end":10397.979,"text":"謝主席 我也請鄭部長 然後也請我們指揮官行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心馬指揮官委員早那樹發部的代表也準備一下好 我今天的主題非常的明確喔台灣要打架國家隊台灣成立打詐國家隊但是在野黨卻在扯後腿嗎"},{"start":10399.824,"end":10419.138,"text":"口口聲聲說要打炸要防炸那今天質詢的委員呢回去之後就可以剪影片做圖卡發文說自己好關心打炸可是呢省預算的時候大砍預算大動預算讓我們的打炸政策作為"},{"start":10420.599,"end":10444.485,"text":"綁手綁腳 動彈不折 下一頁喔這個是速發布喔 速發布是這一次政府總預算這個受災戶最嚴重的山洞合併超過七成 也就是剩下三成的錢可以花當中對於監管網路平台 落實廣告實名制要打炸就受阻了"},{"start":10445.405,"end":10469.931,"text":"然後我們要開發AI的分析網路詐騙的這個系統然後來減少人力的負擔自動化可以通報只剩下三成的錢可以用了我們要出國交流國際的這個情報能夠互相的匯報要司法互助我們要資安技術的合作預算剩三成我看下一個"},{"start":10473.446,"end":10497.381,"text":"內政部警政署也是重災戶啊在打詐相關預算裡頭大山大洞超過兩成所以呢你的影響就是協助人民要懂得視詐辯視詐騙這資訊傳播管道我們要宣傳我們要政策的配套我們要人力我們要物力還有網路流量記錄資料庫"},{"start":10499.742,"end":10520.283,"text":"要對打炸毒品槍砲而效性侵犯罪業務的推廣難道因為預算只剩就打八折了嗎再來我請指揮官喔還據說你們指揮中心的預算更慘到底有多慘 來說一下"},{"start":10521.994,"end":10546.073,"text":"跟委員報告其實指揮中心我們所用到的預算不多但是大部分都是在我們的會議所需要因為是行政院的業務費被刪那也跟委員報告我們從去年9月份成立到現在我們現在總共各式會議我們召開了92次92場但是我們現在的預算就是每個月剩下9000塊可以租影音機那其他的預算都沒有了Pardon me"},{"start":10547.148,"end":10570.26,"text":"你的指揮中心每個月預算剩9000塊只可以租引印機那你要開92場會今年就沒得開啦我們就是開但是用我們各自複習的方式所以大家聽聽看喔請大家告訴大家行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心的預算被砍到每個月剩9000塊"},{"start":10573.032,"end":10591.919,"text":"我們到底是要支持政府打詐防詐還是要讓政府沒有辦法打詐防詐然後乾脆向詐騙集團投降好了書發布我剛剛說你們的預算七成被煽動難道你們的業務以後就打三折了嗎怎麼辦啊"},{"start":10593.218,"end":10614.909,"text":"是 報告委員 雖然我們的預算確實是有受到影響影響打架非常嚴重嘛 對不對 尤其在網路那一塊是的 那但是呢 因為我們還是透過公司協力的部分來跟我們的網路廣告平台業者一起來做一個努力喔所以讓你們要加倍努力啊 事倍公辦啊 去總結啊 去合作啊 去拜託民間啊 做回來做"},{"start":10615.976,"end":10623.823,"text":"是 我想其實民間應該也有網路廣告平台業者也有這樣的義務警政署署長就你們怎麼辦啊"},{"start":10626.055,"end":10654.781,"text":"你們以後預算就請在野黨的委員不要來argue你們的預算你們的政策來對 我覺得就是有一些我們推動的就是在宣導讓全民防災的意識能夠再做提升所以這個部分就是刪跟動的比較嚴重一點然後你的網路流量網路流量的一個這件事就是要去追源頭的這些相關的設備也是動的比較多一點動了大概8.81"},{"start":10656.161,"end":10678.653,"text":"所以啊 8.8億嘛對不對 我現在看到你們內政部在打詐業務光凍結就是10.8億嘛是天啊如果說在野黨的委員關心打詐要向詐騙集團宣戰結果來砍 來刪 來動預算那我要說在野黨就是台灣政治圈最大的詐騙集團我們看下一頁"},{"start":10683.427,"end":10700.34,"text":"今天呢主席排的這個會議主題是引用聯合國的這個毒品跟打架辦公室的一個報告剛剛我聽到前面您的回答部長的回答是說其實他的真實性還帶確認因為他不是官方確認的文件"},{"start":10701.101,"end":10719.978,"text":"但即便如此 雖然不能盡信 但是一些揭露的事項 我們也是可以來納入參考政策的研議包括這個報告告訴了我們 跨國組織犯罪的生態系已經轉型了由傳統的毒品轉向工業化的網路詐騙跟資安犯罪"},{"start":10721.219,"end":10742.535,"text":"這個報告也告訴我們詐騙集團高度的整合化跟企業化的運作虛擬資產洗錢人口販運地下金融AI都一起這個磨高一尺道就要高一丈喔第三呢這個報告也告訴我們整個犯罪據點是轉向無政府管控或是非國家武裝"},{"start":10744.127,"end":10770.195,"text":"控制的地區就是東南亞的地區這個報告告訴了我們詐騙金額實在是嚇死人光東亞東南亞就損失就這個去年度的報告370億美元這是這個報告告訴我們的下一頁可以參考的地方參考但是不能盡信也就是說不能輕易的採信的地方也請大家不要去渲染"},{"start":10771.656,"end":10785.693,"text":"這個報告有把台灣打成是詐騙之島嗎?剛剛我還看在野黨的文說 恭喜喔 恭喜喔 台灣登上世界舞台天啊 用這種幸災樂禍的心情來看待我們的國家打架的作為"},{"start":10786.954,"end":10795.545,"text":"部長您要回答之前我來提醒一下這個報告我讀到的是他們在東亞觀察出特殊經濟詐騙源區就是金三角有緬甸、柬埔寨跟寮國而台灣的角色我們是受害者來源國之一就是我們是受害國家"},{"start":10804.717,"end":10822.395,"text":"而且當然台灣跟個案的關聯有關但是台灣絕對不是這個報告的主體我就以我整理了報告內的各國出現的頻率中國最高在整篇報告當中中國被提到102次台灣被提到26次"},{"start":10826.752,"end":10853.326,"text":"泰國、日本、寮國、緬甸、柬埔寨、菲律賓被提到的次數都高於台灣所以如果在野黨的委員來說這個報告你看國際證實了台灣就是全球最嚴重東南亞最慘的詐騙之島這是事實嗎?部長這個不是這個報告雖然是對我們非常的不友善但這個報告其實它的來源這個來源也是我們也是"},{"start":10854.448,"end":10879.995,"text":"他搞不好也是一個詐騙那另外他裡面的話最主要的講的就是一個東亞跟東寮各國的一個情形那當然把台灣也寫進去但是最主要的他是講說有四個案例有四個案件他有一些的主要的嫌犯或者什麼他曾經跟台灣有關聯譬如說他以前20年前或幾十年前在台灣居住後那個人來自台灣但是他已經"},{"start":10880.815,"end":10904.483,"text":"已經是落實在那些東南亞的國家了因為個案有被提及台灣的觀點但是台灣在這整個通篇報導當中告訴我們台灣其實在報告當中的身份是受害者來源國之一台灣被提及的頻率26次中國被提到102次其他國家的防詐"},{"start":10906.022,"end":10921.702,"text":"恐怕他們面對的情勢比我們更險峻但是我們台灣絕對要加強因為詐騙集團就是人民共同心中承受非常大的壓力我們必須做 下一頁所以說對應於這個防詐報告的五大建議"},{"start":10922.583,"end":10927.806,"text":"我沒有時間講事實上從提高政治層級的關注行政院做到了卓院長宣告成立了防炸行動綱領2.0我們成立了打炸國家隊第二個這個報告提出要強化制度跟監管的工具以及第三點執法跟技術的能力要upgrade我們就是修了打炸四法有新的武器M化車GPS追蹤然後網路流量紀錄可以調取我們都做到"},{"start":10949.557,"end":10978.755,"text":"然後呢這個報告希望推動整合性的回應機制台灣建立了打詐儀表板上路了還有要深化區域跟國際合作台灣努力在做包括法務部的司法互助但是很遺憾出國的預算都被在野黨的委員山根砍誰在扯台灣打詐的後腿在野黨的委員要反求諸己啊為什麼要跟自己的國家為敵啊下一頁"},{"start":10980,"end":10992.399,"text":"那去年我們努力的在司法法治委員會通過了打炸司法所以在法治的健全我們努力做到有了法治才能夠有政策精良的武器下一頁"},{"start":10993.533,"end":11006.639,"text":"即便我們預算被砍成這樣這些數字我精準的來整理如果我有錯部長可以指正從去年11月到今年4月我們的打炸的財損金額減少39.9%從126.6億減少到76.2億雖然76.2億還是很高啦"},{"start":11017.15,"end":11033.118,"text":"我們還是要向詐騙集團宣戰啦但是有努力有效果第二個受理的案件減少11.5%也就是過去113年11月有18000多件的詐騙案件到今年4月已經"},{"start":11034.658,"end":11062.115,"text":"減到一萬五千九百六十一件但是還不還是讓人家很痛啊我們還是要繼續努力但是請讓我們團隊打炸國家隊努力的成果要告訴社會政府努力在做在詐騙案件跟財損金額逐步降低我的陳述正確嗎正確所以請給政府支持跟力量如果預算沒有被刪被動我相信我們可以做得更好"},{"start":11063.345,"end":11068.769,"text":"我們可以全面向詐騙集團宣戰而不是現在綁手綁腳預算解凍還要等立法院後續的程序在下一頁而以網路詐騙的猩猩犯罪裡頭因為我們推動了網路的廣告實名制這速發部的業務所以這半年來的網路詐騙的下降假投資廣告下降了31.3%網路購物下降了12.2%假買家"},{"start":11093.107,"end":11098.851,"text":"的詐騙賣家下降了17.2%假中獎通知也下降了9.27%假交友徵詐騙也下降了24.4%即便我們預算被砍被動但是速發步我們努力做到請問我的數字速發步正確嗎是的 報告委員正確但是我們還是不滿意本席也不滿意 下一頁"},{"start":11119.983,"end":11143.912,"text":"你們現在防堵網路平台詐騙三個階段第一個我們做到的是落實了廣告實名制今年1月1號上路但是未來要強要擴大對於平台的責任包括要求Meta Line Google YT來訂定他們的防詐防欺的計畫以及要求各個平台提出年度的透明度報告你們現在磋商的如何啊"},{"start":11144.432,"end":11154.486,"text":"是 報告委員有關於廣告實名制的這個部分呢各平台都已經開始在做而且也已經送給我們去做合規的審查我知道 但是後面你要求他們做房計房價計畫是 房計房價計畫的部分呢我們五月底前會審查"},{"start":11159.633,"end":11179.493,"text":"現在也陸續送到粉署來太好了 是的這是好消息 平台願意配合是 是 他們願意配合那並且依照這樣的一個房價計畫裡面相關的一個風險的評估跟對應的模式的處理我們也會輔導他們要去合乎他們的房價計畫來做一個進行那到年底的時候就會有一個透明度的報告出來好"},{"start":11180.994,"end":11203.117,"text":"這是好消息這麼多壞消息當中的好消息我們終於強化跟平台責任的互相公司的協力我期待你們五月提出來的好最後一點因為因為預算被刪被動我要提醒你們速發部現在我們我們現在的打架的兩大檢舉平台一個是速發部主管的一個是警政署的165"},{"start":11204.899,"end":11232.297,"text":"兩個當中其實案件量都很高可是你們人力有限速發部是要用AIAI去做但是預算被砍然後警政署是用人力你們人力很吃力但是兩大平台來收受這個檢舉雖然強強聯手可是我覺得你們的借接跟合作不夠多可能都在重複受理同樣的案件所以你們可不可以請指揮中心指揮官來匯整整合一下這兩個平台"},{"start":11234.258,"end":11249.856,"text":"因為也要因應預算 被刪 被凍 速發不就沒頂沒檔啦警政署也一樣啦所以我也認為制度上讓兩大檢舉平台每個月八萬件 想辦法讓他們可以合作分流而不是彼此重疊互相打架 這樣可以嗎"},{"start":11250.899,"end":11275.662,"text":"可以的沒問題謝謝委員好我們一起努力我們無論如何向詐騙集團宣戰我們要行動預算被刪被砍但是我們的法治已經健全了就做眼前能夠做的事我們要加重300%的努力才能夠補回我們預算被刪被砍人民持續的被詐騙受害的這個狀況我給你們無限的祝福跟打氣加油謝謝"},{"start":11276.803,"end":11298.231,"text":"謝謝吳委員 我們今天的會議持續進行至所有委員巡邏完畢為止因為剛剛我們有先宣告吳校委員巡邏完畢之後休息五分鐘因為不好意思 因為之前就已經宣告很之前就宣告抱歉 跟兩位委員說聲抱歉那我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":11604.507,"end":11606.249,"text":"主席麻煩我們的警政署署長麻煩署長"},{"start":11631.027,"end":11634.852,"text":"每年性影像犯罪有多少案件 有多少被害人"},{"start":11649.405,"end":11660.315,"text":"這個數據我手頭沒有這個數據,未來在事後再提供給你們那我們就看性影像的犯罪持續事實上是成長的從這數據可以看到112年跟113年相較事實上113年成長了66%光今年的1月就有530名的被害人"},{"start":11672.967,"end":11684.097,"text":"那這些都還是浮在檯面上的喔檯面下的不願報案的我相信不計其數其中我覺得比較關注可以關注的就是說未成年跟成年人的被害的比例是"},{"start":11688.107,"end":11703.876,"text":"這個差異性很高那從結果上來看的話成年人的案量比較大我們先不討論未成年他可能去阻礙到沒辦法進入到司法體系的其他原因我們先來談的是其他的問題問題一我要提到的是成人影像的案件裡邊"},{"start":11705.117,"end":11723.719,"text":"特別去看實務上存在幾個問題一是我們可以看到量能不足的問題主要體現在地方護幼隊編制以行政業務為主我想署長應該也知道光是處理龐大的行政聯繫事項就已經疲於奔命了那如何做到偵查防治還有其次"},{"start":11724.46,"end":11753.185,"text":"在目前可知運用的強制處分的手段上受限於法規的門檻跟程序兒少類的性影像餘率可以處理可是一旦跨過18歲就處處受到限制再來處理案件的流程欠缺我們的專業性受理被害人報案後沒有先申請我們的搜索扣押就通知嫌疑人證據往往就在這過程當中不見了"},{"start":11754.065,"end":11778.136,"text":"那最後就算第一線的員警有意願有熱情有專業有敏感度要去處理但地方分局的設備跟自身的偵查能力呢都可能讓我們的員警心有餘慮而慮不足那也想 吸救問題我覺得看白話來講就是常看到的就是沒錢又沒有人但我相信大家都知道性影像這個犯罪問題呢"},{"start":11779.537,"end":11796.249,"text":"非常嚴重那相信署長應該也很重視那我就好奇每一年的預算有多少所以想問署長你覺得性影響犯罪是嚴重犯罪嗎那就要再請教今年的也就是數位性暴力的防治預算有多少"},{"start":11796.994,"end":11815.977,"text":"那跟委員報告這有關這個預算裡面是統編在科技偵查的預算裡面不會說對針對性影像專者編這個預算也是在偵查針在偵辦科技犯罪的一個預算的的範範酬裡面沒有這專者這樣提列出來的一個預算"},{"start":11816.237,"end":11832.646,"text":"我看到我現在拿到的數據是601萬300元主要大家都在教育訓練宣導費用除非就像剛剛署長提的是說你發科技偵辦裡面可是我們現在拿到可是相對的來講今年宣布"},{"start":11833.526,"end":11857.804,"text":"預防兒少犯罪方案就76億元喔這是預防性的齁那大概如果以這樣601萬來比的話大概就佔到0.07而已如果橫比上來看的話那比例上那所以是小巫見大巫所以問了警政署說那為何沒有專項的預算因為既然這個問題很嚴重可是得到回覆是說喔還在評估當中沒有錢又沒有人那現況怎麼辦呢"},{"start":11858.925,"end":11870.452,"text":"是要靠員警的熱情嗎員警基層努力嗎 努力就會有收穫嗎所以我不知道說整個想來問署長你的性影像案件的續講怎麼計算"},{"start":11871.874,"end":11898.279,"text":"那對於姓李這樣的一個續講我想也是採取比較中獎的方式來鼓勵同仁偵辦這個案件那這個偵辦案件裡面我們大概有兩個面向第一個大概我們會主動去做網路上的去做巡邏了解這個整個的來源再來就是備案的這個報案那這部分我想就是我們全國各警察機關對於這項的工作是非常重視的"},{"start":11898.999,"end":11927.07,"text":"那當然這個我們的主責的單位是在附幼附幼隊的一個專責但是偵辦的單位大概都會只有地方警察局的偵查隊或是警察局的刑警大隊會來做一個偵查那現在偵查的這個能量跟能力我想應該沒有問題就是說對於這些的案件的一個力道未來我們會加強對於這個方面的一個偵查我現在問你的是"},{"start":11927.99,"end":11954.428,"text":"所以我們來看一下你的續講的整個這樣子我應該講說不是酒駕不重要可是案件複雜程度的話應該是性影像比較複雜而且酒駕相對事實上單純可是續講的計算怎麼差異這麼大也就是說今天處理性影像沒累積事件才加獎一次可是酒駕的話就是計班車就加獎一次如果汽車的話加獎兩次"},{"start":11956.689,"end":11978.818,"text":"這橫比上真的落差非常的大這樣子的話我們是要去靠我們的基層的熱情嗎委員 這個部分我們拿回去再做檢討就是對於基地 市區這個部分我都同意來做滾動式的一個檢討讓我們的同仁更有這些的熱情對 如果他們很努力的話應該要去做鼓勵對 從優來去講我想創意私房也好 觸感空間"},{"start":11983.71,"end":12011.808,"text":"這兩個在發生之後真的對我們耳哨影響非常非常的大這個案件尤其是在刑事局跟我在台北市府的時候這兩個案子的偵查偵辦希望你們回去好好的去檢討那問題四呢最後一個問題就是我覺得青春專案當然我之前有看也有委員質詢過可是我還是有好奇的兩個問題就是首先如果不是專案執行期間遇到耳哨性剝削犯罪你到底查不查緝啊"},{"start":12012.688,"end":12036.968,"text":"我從基層收到的食物的狀況不是這樣子喔只不過就是因為青州案件每年在七八月大概暑期的期間有一些青少年大概就是我們的這些學生大概就是都放假可是如果牽扯到續講的話他可能會等到後邊才去做的話那這樣子的話對於我覺得兒少的性剝削這件事情就不會有力道出來"},{"start":12037.268,"end":12048.015,"text":"對 所以我剛剛委員所提的對於核酸性剝削的這些的有功或者是這些的出力的同仁我要重新來檢討這個獎勵的制度你要通盤檢討通盤來檢討獎勵的制度還有另外一個我要問的是"},{"start":12052.555,"end":12075.314,"text":"兒少的這三個狀況 也就是自我剝削的情形譬如說他自己在住處招攬性交易或者是在包養網站上刊登自身的一些訊息因為他還沒發生嘛 兒少在網路上傳自身的性影像因為還沒有所謂的加害人 到底要不要救援那救援有沒有分數啊"},{"start":12077.165,"end":12092.911,"text":"這個部分就是未過程之前的這個可能要研究一下可能有一些主辦單位就是這個主管機關是不是要加入一起來已經是在PO這些東西的話"},{"start":12093.991,"end":12109.888,"text":"因為我們的確過去事實上是要救救除棄現在很多時候是志願的那我們要怎麼去防堵我覺得這件事情還是要來努力還有不要忘記我們是CRC跟CDO的私刑國所以"},{"start":12110.928,"end":12134.58,"text":"兒權公約明年也要交第三次國家報告了我們第34條他就很清楚的是說我們應該承諾保護兒童免於所有形式的性剝削跟性虐待那CITO也是這樣子提及所以不要忘記是明年到底要怎麼去交因為我們的這樣的犯罪這麼樣的嚴重明年要交第三次國家報告之後你怎麼去提及這個所以最後我就期待"},{"start":12135.16,"end":12155.433,"text":"就請署長針對於像第一點檢討修正我們心理上處理流程來強化第一線的員警的專業智能不過第二項我就要請法務部部長也在這邊麻煩你們檢討強制處分適用案件跟程序來提升我們的偵查權限跟優化辦案效率不知道部長這邊OK嗎"},{"start":12158.676,"end":12176.13,"text":"我們回去嚴厲OK那第三回來還是希望我們署長這邊擴大性犯罪的偵犯能量來要有專項的經費預算然後挹注足夠的人力然後他請你全面檢討所有的整個續講機制不要"},{"start":12176.77,"end":12202.023,"text":"在青春專案那個時間點或者是跟酒駕的不對等的這樣的續講方式沒有辦法讓人家更奮力的去辦這件事情否則真的就是在消耗他們的熱情而已所以再來最後就是檢討我們的那個青春專案的規劃跟執行那麻煩兩位就是是不是可以兩週後給我我這提的五項給我那個報告好 可以好 謝謝好 謝謝那我們下一位請黃珊珊委員"},{"start":12216.429,"end":12218.892,"text":"現在請甄部長還有司法院副秘書長副秘"},{"start":12226.035,"end":12251.862,"text":"好 部長好 蜂蜜好我想今天是打大專報去年立法院通過了打大專法尤其是詐欺危害防治條例那現在執行的狀況剛剛也看到很多委員質詢說的確是有一些成效但是現在碰到我認為比較嚴重的問題它第47條規定說犯詐欺犯罪在偵查還有歷次的審判中自白"},{"start":12252.762,"end":12269.694,"text":"如果有犯罪所得要自動繳交其犯罪所得的要減輕其刑現在的問題就是立法院跟法務部在去年在這個場域裡面我們大家所探討的就是我們的打詐專法是要加重加嚴對吧 部長是"},{"start":12270.675,"end":12297.822,"text":"加重加嚴是你法務的立場 也是立法院的立場所以在差異法案條例都有比新法座比較對 所以這個很清楚我們同意自白加上犯罪所得繳回 得解清其刑錯我們這個是避檢 這個法條就要避檢另外查獲 主持的相關的組織的話是避檢或避免 免除其刑這個情況是法務部的立場 也是司法院的立場嗎"},{"start":12299.404,"end":12324.529,"text":"是但是現在最大的問題是司法務部立法院都非常認真的立了這個法加重加嚴但現在的問題是在法院法官們對於犯罪所得認定有很大的歧義也就是說他們對於立法者立法一直不明不了解或者是他們自行做了解釋所以刑事最高法院"},{"start":12327.25,"end":12348.097,"text":"的刑三庭申請了大法庭解釋這個問題就在於法務部認為我們的犯罪所得是什麼 部長你認為的犯罪所得是什麼是整體詐團的 就是被害人的被害人的受害金額 受害金額好 但是法院把它認為是車手得到的報酬 是嗎 副秘書長"},{"start":12350.817,"end":12362.11,"text":"這個部分確實法院之間有不同見解所以現在才要大法庭來解釋那我要在這邊問的是這個法案送到立法院來之前在法務部跟司法院沒有討論過嗎"},{"start":12364.738,"end":12393.632,"text":"在這個委員會在審查的法案的同時司法院的刑事廳也有人派人在現場做了非常非常明確的詢答而且他也清楚的知道立法意向為什麼到司法院之後完全沒有任何的沒有任何的共識甚至在每個法庭的法官有不同的見解這才是我今天要問的部長你們之前有跟司法院溝通過犯罪所得的標準跟你們的立場立法的意旨還有立法院的意見嗎"},{"start":12395.27,"end":12420.304,"text":"立法說明是有寫立法說明有寫司法院刑事廳不知道還是他知道然後沒有辦法做出同意解釋還是讓法官自己解釋現在問題就是法務部立法院加重加嚴我們的法院拼命在減輕然後還要大法庭解釋這不是很奇怪嗎副秘書長你們司法院沒有參與他們的修法過程和立法議職嗎"},{"start":12421.818,"end":12449.477,"text":"是有會嫌有會嫌那為什麼會出現這種狀況現在相關的法院大部分的法官認為說車手只拿了幾千塊要他賠幾十萬很不很平這我也可以理解但是我還是回到原點原來我們的立法意旨到底是什麼第二個現在這樣的起義造成了非常多民眾的觀感我們在打詐打假的啊"},{"start":12450.492,"end":12464.781,"text":"一樣啦 詐欺犯這麼輕 只要說我沒拿到錢只要自白 只要說我還沒有拿到報酬就減輕欸 甚至就放人欸部長 你們的立法意志 司法院不知道是嗎你們之前有溝通嗎部長 你要不要回答"},{"start":12472.109,"end":12496.571,"text":"這個在行政院審查會的時候司法院就派人我今天的問題是好5月14號大法庭要做解釋了現在看起來大部分的法院法庭的幾個庭 最高法院三個九個庭只有一個庭支持法務部啦另外八個庭都不支持你啦接下來具體要怎麼辦解釋出來如果犯罪所的是大法庭解釋說是車手個人的報酬"},{"start":12498.154,"end":12515.556,"text":"法務部要不要帶來修法還是我們要幫你修法還是你的立場要不要講清楚啊如果說大法庭解釋是不是採被害人的被害金而說的話那就是違反你的立法意志啊那我們就是要啟動修法不是要啟動修法你現在就準備好5月14號你的法案就進來"},{"start":12516.687,"end":12535.626,"text":"立法委員都支持你們結果我們自己一個國家的體制完全互相不聯絡然後法官我相信他也是在找一個平衡點所以你們在修法的時候司法院就應該表達你們的立場你們希望的平衡點在哪裡法務部不能我們這邊做壞人你們這邊做好人啊副秘書長"},{"start":12536.787,"end":12558.076,"text":"如果修法你們要不要參與呢還是你們的意見是什麼如果法庭都是這樣的意見那就拿出來你們的版本說台灣的中華民國的最高法院不希望加重加嚴而不是我們修法修了半天法官拼命在放人你可以理解我的意思嗎所以在修法是必然是嗎 部長要看判決的結果"},{"start":12562.967,"end":12585.309,"text":"如果他的判決結果不符原來的立法意旨你多久之內要送法案來立法院全體幾乎不分黨派全部支持打詐專法結果搞到今天這個樣子剛剛講的什麼打詐的已經都騙人了啦抓到人判不了刑然後最後他自己隨便說說交個三千塊五千塊他就沒事了"},{"start":12586.226,"end":12606.653,"text":"你要這些年輕人繼續投入詐騙集團嗎繼續被詐騙集團所用嗎因為發現沒事所以大家繼續來打詐是越打越詐兩位我希望在5月14號的判決以後不管怎麼樣的結果如果不符合原來法務部送到立法院的立法意旨請你在一個月之內提案修法可以嗎"},{"start":12608.576,"end":12637.19,"text":"還是我們來努力好 司法院我覺得也是一樣如果你們都派人來立法院聽了 詢答了看到立法委員每一個義憤填膺的要怎麼修不可以到法庭上是另外一種結果副秘書長 這是你們的責任要把相關的立法一直很普遍的讓所有的法官都能夠明瞭否則法律各自解釋那我們不用在這邊浪費時間我們修完了你們解釋我們修完了你們解釋 最後什麼修法沒有用"},{"start":12638.604,"end":12661.635,"text":"就廢物啊就立了一些廢法好嗎部長這是你的承諾如果5月14號的結果我一個月等你的相關的法案我覺得要給立法委員一個交代是謝謝委員好謝謝那下一個我們請葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之徐欣盈徐欣盈徐欣盈好下一個我們請陳培宇委員發言"},{"start":12673.629,"end":12677.263,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想先請警政署還有抒發部 謝謝"},{"start":12686.684,"end":12708.899,"text":"好謝謝兩位我們就直接來談我們覺得可能一般人會很有感的詐欺案例其實在去年從去年到今年其實棒球一直在台灣是一個非常重要的話題那一旦它成為話題成為輿情成為流量它就會成為詐欺商品的周邊商品的可能性對不對我想這個你們一定都可以理解沒有錯"},{"start":12709.639,"end":12720.832,"text":"那所以我們可以看到在這個截圖上面他說大家快來搶購同款就是這個台灣 聽台灣的T-shirt然後當時有注意到呢這個其實是一個詐騙網頁但是他開始賣這個球衣那這個是二月的截圖我們來往下看"},{"start":12726.278,"end":12742.311,"text":"然後呢這個假的粉絲頁呢他就不斷地開始推播所以導致這個真正的粉絲頁的本尊就在三月中還有三月底連續發了兩篇的聲明告訴球迷要小心那個是假的粉絲頁那個是詐騙大家不要真的就去買了這樣"},{"start":12743.152,"end":12753.526,"text":"那代表說這件事情有流量然後這個本尊粉絲頁也是有流量的可是可以看得出來這個粉絲頁的本尊他其實非常非常的無奈那照理說我認為這樣的案例因為確實過去比較少可是因為他有新聞流量所以他就變成很容易讓人家下單去購買的一個"},{"start":12760.835,"end":12781.531,"text":"對象這樣那結果後來看起來他就跟臉書檢舉也沒有用那身為一般球迷或者是這個粉絲專業的版主可以怎麼做我們看到其實警政署也好書發部也好你們有那個APP可以檢舉相關的事情那我們來看一下確實這個打架打架有成效剛剛很多委員也說了去年我們看到刑事局下架了12萬筆"},{"start":12783.152,"end":12808.109,"text":"如果按照今年一到四月就已經五萬兩千多筆我合理推估可能到年底會超過十五萬筆對不對可能會更多但是基本的預估大概是十五萬筆那我覺得這件事情非常重要這個對國人來說是一個可行看起來大家可以信任的平台跟機制可是我要有一個小小的提醒從一剛開始我說有流量有輿情它就會有詐騙的可能現在你們所有橫跨的平台裡面"},{"start":12813.432,"end":12838.417,"text":"翠是沒有包含的 對嗎對好 翠這個平台是沒有包含但是我們很感謝警政署你們在12月7號去年你們就提醒大家新興平台翠的串文要注意就是它可能真的會有相關詐騙雖然我後來去看了一下雖然現在他們還沒有開始讓廣告主可以投放廣告但是不管是很多直銷商啦或者是金融買賣的"},{"start":12840.258,"end":12866.157,"text":"帳號他們確實是用發文的方法用圖卡的方法用拍影片的方法想要吸引更多人關注他的帳號然後甚而造成可能有詐騙的可能性我再說一次他雖然沒有投放廣告但是他用發文用圖卡用影片的方法他還是會造成相關消費者的混淆然後就構成了相關詐騙的可能性我很想知道在目前翠在你們兩個部會的規劃是什麼對於翠這個平台"},{"start":12868.619,"end":12891.266,"text":"或者是對於其他新興的社群媒體平台我們還是會加強這些網路上的這些的巡邏啦就是搜尋這些相關的訊息是不是涉及這個炸雞的一個違規的狀況所以在你的檢舉平台當中我們現在一般使用我們檢舉平台除了說民眾的這個檢舉檢舉到165或者是告各檢查單位以外我們還有"},{"start":12892.606,"end":12917.278,"text":"我們的有ban by我們的網路巡邏的警察會主動去這些網路平台去做搜尋所以你也包含CHOI嗎包含那你可以告訴我目前你們在CHOI上有真的搜尋到類似的懷疑疑似是詐欺的我想這個正確數字我再跟我們的刑事局聯繫一下會後再給委員的資料會後給我們資料因為台灣人用CHOI證用很多好不好好那我想問一下蘇發布你們的APP裡面現在可以檢舉關於CHOI的部分嗎"},{"start":12918.764,"end":12937.259,"text":"報告委員我們在去年這個打雜事法通過之後呢我們在去年年底的時候呢依照就是高風險跟一定規模有公布了四個業者平台業者然後六個平台然後裡面目前確實還沒有Trade那是因為Trade他沒有投放廣告這樣的一個業務"},{"start":12938.24,"end":12960.413,"text":"那但是我們在這個平台業者的這個部分的公布呢我們每兩個月大概都會review一次關注他的這個流量有沒有就是因為投放廣告的這個部分會影響到我們廣大的民眾所以呢如果Trade開始也有做這個廣告投放的這樣的一個業務之後呢我們在關注他的這個流量跟影響程度以後"},{"start":12961.614,"end":12981.519,"text":"也許也會可以把它列為這樣子的一個就是說必須要去納管的一個平台那這個部分我們會持續的關注跟研議好所以我跟副署長嘛副署長我跟您確定一下所以速發布的APP要以廣告為主如同我剛剛說它在翠上面它不是用發廣告的方法它是以貼文啦圖卡啦影片的訊息傳遞出去它不是我們傳統看到的下廣告的方法"},{"start":12991.042,"end":13005.745,"text":"這個就不含你們速發部APP可以檢舉的對象嗎是的 因為我們在這個打炸釋法裡面有關於網路廣告平台業者有他一定的定義就是說他必須要是接受網路在平台上面接受網路的這樣的一個廣告的一個投放然後並且收取對價的這樣的一個方式才會是我們納管的一個部分"},{"start":13014.528,"end":13031.848,"text":"了解所以聽起來要嗎就是後續我們再討論你們怎麼調整這個看是要修法嗎我不是很確定但我時間有限所以看起來如果它是跟廣告有關但是剛剛警政署也說了你們會有更積極的不管是海巡或者是更積極的作為那我想一定要把新興社群媒體平台納入你們的對象好嗎"},{"start":13034.11,"end":13056.182,"text":"謝謝好這邊速發部請回那警政署請留步謝謝好接下來我們要講的詐欺這件事情其實我們現在看到比較大的困境喔在你們統計資料裡面113從111到11315歲以上未滿18歲的少年犯呢從在113年已經佔了三分之一那我想這個數字你一定非常清楚因為我們看圖表也非常清楚"},{"start":13056.582,"end":13075.331,"text":"但其實我很擔心之所以有這麼多15歲到18歲的孩子變成這個所謂加害人也好或是相關的嫌疑犯一定是因為他們的生活環境不管是社區生活學校生活網路環境的生活讓孩子們變成這個所謂的嫌疑犯但我很好奇我可以先回到前一張圖表嗎"},{"start":13076.531,"end":13092.459,"text":"十五到十八是你們現在有收集的數字但十五以下呢十五 說實話十五到十二在國中階段很可能就已經有一些案例了但我們目前沒有看到相關數字但那個也會是你們關懷的對象嗎應該是 十八歲以下都是"},{"start":13093.079,"end":13108.533,"text":"18歲以下都是好那我們會持續追蹤讓我們來往下看關於這群孩子他們現在最大的困境就是我們看到你們有一個預防兒童及少年犯罪方案14到117你們列了這麼多這麼多我就不再贅述了下一張好可是我們看到從"},{"start":13111.12,"end":13131.958,"text":"這個執行方案裡面對於各個部會都有要求各自應該要去做哪些事情確實這麼大的事情它需要跨部會的合作可是我們看到很多預防措施跟執行措施是落在內政部警政署有這麼多這麼多工作我們跟你們所知你們告訴我們說你們截至目前為止先將你們做了很多外講做了很多宣傳然後預計辦50集場對嗎"},{"start":13136.887,"end":13151.276,"text":"對的那你們自己之所以會規劃外講跟宣傳的原因是為什麼為什麼你們認為這樣的活動就可以促成所謂的15到18或者是18歲以下的兒少不要進入這個犯罪的可能你們想像的原因是什麼"},{"start":13151.596,"end":13165.944,"text":"我想就是一個也是就是一個宣導的一個讓讓全民都能夠了解這些兒少的一個犯罪的一個狀況那剛剛委員有提了因為這個是一個中長期的計劃包括牽涉在各部會"},{"start":13166.904,"end":13190.064,"text":"各部位 那我們也在行政委開過多次的這樣會議也有設定這一些的工作的項目跟定了目標值那我們根據這些內政部根據這些定的工作項目有關宣導的部分我們就是做規劃的這一方面的一個宣導讓這一些的青少年的一個犯罪的情形讓這個民眾可以去做了解 可以去做避免"},{"start":13190.913,"end":13216.52,"text":"好 我沒有說宣講跟外展活動沒有用但是我要講的是可能一個是我們從學校教育端來看可能孩子們在學校不會不知道這些事情可是如果我們的外展方案裡面還是很多的宣講還是侷限在 例如說你們給我們的資料裡面你們提到關於新興犯罪型態的認識啦少識法的轉向 兒童心理特質啦偏差行為啦 防毒啦 幫派啦"},{"start":13217.82,"end":13238.636,"text":"這些他跟詐欺之間的關聯我必須跟您報告說實話我們在第一線收集到的聲音是很多孩子真的不知道我只不過是當個車手按個ATM有這麼嚴重嗎如果這個話今天是一個45歲50歲的大人說出來我們會責備他多一點但是如果今天是一個12歲15歲18歲的孩子講出這個話我們會認為他們因為社會生活經驗比較少"},{"start":13244.981,"end":13254.972,"text":"對法律的認知也比較少還在學習累積的階段所以他們講這個話雖然是不對的但是我們比較可以原諒他們但我要講的是孩子們剛剛講出那句話我只不過去按個ATM幫忙領個錢有這麼嚴重嗎這應該是現在很多年輕車手的困境"},{"start":13264.964,"end":13288.652,"text":"就他們不知道說原來我做這個事情有這麼嚴重那當然我不是說全部的孩子都是這樣所以對我來說如果我們站在教育推廣並且我們真的希望收到實質的成效我們在規劃跟青少年的對話的活動當中他理當更多元更豐富更接近他們的需求更理解他們的困境這是我想要給你們的建議"},{"start":13289.412,"end":13291.855,"text":"這個部分我想我們之後再花時間跟你們討論因為我認為更接近小孩的需求真的才能夠收到賀止的成效"},{"start":13306.112,"end":13323.842,"text":"好 接下來有一個昨天的記者會喔是我跟范雲委員還有很多團體一起所召開的主要就是因為最近有一個案件落在新北的才藝班有一個老師他在他的教室不法裝設監視器在監視器拍到的角落對孩子進行性侵跟性騷"},{"start":13324.882,"end":13354.022,"text":"而這個行為因為家長關心孩子的日常學習生活所以才被發現等到家長發現帶著孩子準備開始去報案的時候在警務單位第一關出現了一個難題我簡單說給您聽當家長想要去報案的時候他就打電話先到地方他所居住地的派出所問而且他講了說有發生這個事情派出所的員警非常好心就說好沒有問題你們可以過來我們可以受理等到孩子跟家長去到了那個派出所現場"},{"start":13355.563,"end":13379.744,"text":"他一聽事發地點他才問他事發地點他說事發地點在B地不在我們這裡所以他請那個家長再帶著孩子跑到B地過去的派出所去做筆錄B的派出所收了這個案子一聽不對這個案子很嚴重不是我是性侵案不是我們派出所可以處理的才又轉到副右隊也就是說我之前在跟警政署討論"},{"start":13380.965,"end":13385.091,"text":"其實第一線的基層遠景對於網路時代也好對於現在這個"},{"start":13387.082,"end":13415.745,"text":"非常多元複雜的犯罪樣態的不理解其實我們不想增加基層員警的工作loading可是我們又很希望所有的被害人在第一時間他們可以找到一個對的窗口給予正確的協助而不要讓這一群被害人他們要反覆反覆的述說其實光是在第一關警政單位我當時就有提醒可以做哪些事情我不知道您這兩天有沒有看到這個新聞"},{"start":13416.325,"end":13432.653,"text":"我有看到我覺得這個最主要關鍵就是要讓他減速的一個一個陳述的一個狀況那我也了解他的原理處理過程處理過程當中當然有一些管轄的問題但是案件是有受受理可是陳述的狀況是多次"},{"start":13433.994,"end":13451.432,"text":"關鍵最大就是要有一站式的服務的一個醫院的這個狀況那未來就是說這個一站式的服務的醫院是在衛生單位在各縣市政府來做一個規範那剛好這個案件的一個醫院沒有一站式所謂一站式就會只有警察"},{"start":13452.762,"end":13480.081,"text":"社工還有這些那個 沒關係我跟你說會有警政 警政 衛政 社政還有這些檢查檢查機關的 還有檢查機關就是法務部的檢查就是整個一站式在那邊一次做解決問題重點是在這一個所以未來能夠做精進的就是未來在這一站式的服務醫院裡面要加強這些醫院的一個設置那另外我們要加強的部分就是未來可能因為他的"},{"start":13481.362,"end":13506.133,"text":"峽區的地方沒有一站式的服務那是不是因為這種案件的話我們受理的話可能是不是要徵求這些被害人的家屬因為都是兒少的家屬的同意我們送到他們縣或峽區裡面的一站式的服務院來做處理這個就減少減速的一個狀況這邊您先留步我可不可以請司法院這邊"},{"start":13508.328,"end":13536.014,"text":"因為可能在法務部的檢調單位會有更複雜但是確實是三個部會包含未證也會有關係還有您剛說的因為這個案子裡面它有驗傷所以它包含連醫院端但是我非常開心聽到您剛剛說我們最好可以提供一站式協助被害人這真的是理想中但是我現在真的非常非常好奇在您所屬的或者是司法院這邊在你們所屬的單位裡面你們現在有任何單位有"},{"start":13536.454,"end":13563.102,"text":"真的跨部會討論一站式服務提供的可能性嗎或者是如何在22個縣市當中我們不要浩高霧雨我們一步一步來可以怎麼樣做一步一步的規劃還是其實都還沒有開始討論但沒關係我們從這個案子讓我們看見今天沒有辦法請教育部跟衛福部來其實這個案子它其實是各部會必須要真的認真提供一站式但就我所知目前台灣並沒有這樣的服務對不對"},{"start":13565.163,"end":13584.571,"text":"不管是司法院警政署或者是法務部現在有些有些醫院有的縣市政府是有一站式的服務喔例如比如講像台北市的有幾個醫院是有一站式服務新北好像也有可是因為這個案子就發生在新北啊那個分局的小區那個醫院沒有一站式的服務"},{"start":13586.007,"end":13601.445,"text":"就剛好那個醫院沒有一站式的服務比如講像那個俠嶼不用有比如像亞東醫院啊雙樓醫院啊還有或者是現在的慈濟醫院這個都是一站式服務剛好那個分局的俠嶼那個醫院不是一站式的服務"},{"start":13601.966,"end":13627.503,"text":"好 我聽懂了 我聽懂了意思就是說在現行你手上是有名單的所以我可以跟您要名單有名單那我之所以可以跟您要名單意思是說這個事情的發動起點是從警政署基層入境開始的這個發動的起點因為這個一站式的服務是衛生單位 醫院 衛福部所建構的主責建構的一站式那我們警政署也沒有規劃我們的同仁"},{"start":13628.183,"end":13644.573,"text":"要用這樣的一個因為轄區因為太多了也沒有不見得要是也沒有規範他要送到哪個醫院都是都轄區的就近的醫院去做驗傷嘛那這個可能就是沒有這一戰事的這個狀況好未來假設回到這個個案我先請教您喔"},{"start":13645.333,"end":13666.896,"text":"如果他的轄區在B但是提供一站式服務的醫院在A區那我身為這個轄區的派出所員警我知道了這個案子不管他有沒有送去婦幼隊我可以直接不要收然後請他去那個醫院進行重新開始論述嗎還是我們應該更好的理想目標是假設假設同樣都在新北市同樣都在台北市這些這麼大的區域"},{"start":13668.017,"end":13687.253,"text":"應該有一個主責的單位去理解這件事情然後所有的基層員警都要受到相關的訓練當收到類似的案件尤其是針對18歲以下的孩子是受害人這麼敏感的案件的時候我們應該要直接啟動而不是以醫院為主不過這件事情不是你們所有就算了因為它確實需要跨部會的討論"},{"start":13688.134,"end":13717.126,"text":"但是我要說我要再說一次我沒有要問責於這個個案的所有基層員警因為他們的工作loading真的已經很重了幫人民處理大大小小的事情我真的想像的是說假設基層員警是第一層接受到這個案子的報案的對象那他們必須要有一個sense腦袋要裡面警鈴啟動說他必須要回到我們地方政府裡面的一站室那會是哪裡那有沒有機會透過各個縣市政府跟所有中央部會合作去促成這個一站室"},{"start":13718.006,"end":13742.352,"text":"我個人認為是未來是要積極去多推動這一戰事的就是說可以整合所有這些相關受理的這個資源那我們希望就是因為這個組織當然不是在內政部門那這個部門可是不是在衛政的單位來做來做這個推動有的是我們是散落在各地方政府的一個相關的一個衛政單位"},{"start":13743.012,"end":13759.813,"text":"但是在這之前一戰事當然是最美好的理想而且他為了這個理想我們還得做很多的配套但是在這之前我還是要拜託警政署這邊真的要協助基層員警在這件事情上還是要建立相關的認知跟能力除了是可以確保他們的工作不會"},{"start":13760.894,"end":13778.847,"text":"做白宮其實像前面兩個員警搞不好都做了白宮對不對但是站在被害人的立場我們更希望協助他們那這裡面我要再一次強調有內政部警政署有司法院有法務部衛福部跟教育部他確實需要大家一起來努力好不好好謝謝那基層員警的部分我們一起加油好謝謝謝謝謝謝主席好謝謝洪夢凱委員"},{"start":13790.68,"end":13816.2,"text":"所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢 訊號結束委員執行時要求提供相關資料或已書面答覆者 請相關機關緊述送交個別委員及本會委員鍾惠雄 翁曉琳 林倩琦 陳發慧 許欣盈所提書面執行均列入紀錄 刊登報告並請相關機關已書面答覆 本次會議到此結束 現在散會 謝謝大家"},{"start":13821.159,"end":13822.301,"text":"在哪有這樣"},{"start":13837.125,"end":13854.674,"text":"你們的檢察官現在怎麼回事?現在發生什麼事情?剛剛家長跟他說,你今天來這個社工,這裡是社工,他們有個案子的社工,他們有個案子的社工,他們有個案子的社工,他們有個案子的社工,他們有個案子的社工,他們有個案子的社工,他們有個案子的社工"},{"start":13859.657,"end":13860.038,"text":"這個不難吃"},{"start":13877.135,"end":13877.495,"text":"剪刀石頭"},{"start":13898.368,"end":13905.795,"text":"我們明明有法規但是因為法規的審判因為警察就來抓我們就來抓我們就不太適合對所以你還要不要跟我們聊聊天因為我們有法規的審"}]}},{"id":"161031","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161031","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e06a4561b668410683e6a086056f51b23ebb4f448269aea97766f56bf4e46f5f0685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"13:24:17 - 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我們請部長好 有請部長黃委員你好好 謝謝 大家辛苦了要到下午這個時間那我還是跟部長再次的澄清一下絕對沒有任何年齡歧視的問題這整件事情都跟年齡沒有關係我相信所有的年齡層都非常喜歡追星都有各式各樣的追星的活動"},{"start":27.842,"end":45.963,"text":"那所以我今天也是想要藉這個機會再次的跟部長來請教那我這邊是一個已經是一個即將發生的個案因為他們5月10號就要賣票了那其實早上也有委員提到他們是一個泰劇的兩位女性偶像那即將在台灣辦粉絲見面會"},{"start":47.745,"end":67.661,"text":"那首先我要請教的是因為我已經跟文化部詢問過那也進行過調查就是這一家這個活動的主辦單位到底是這個澳門的超旗公司還是台灣的藝尚公司那文化部是跟我回覆說是台灣的藝尚公司可是邀請部長看我們這上面的這兩張圖"},{"start":70.623,"end":82.494,"text":"一個是官方網站上面的頁面直接寫到主辦單位超奇娛樂那右邊是一位粉絲去私訊這個他們認定的藝尚主辦單位他想要跟他詢問一些售票的一些細節結果呢這個藝尚跟他說你好如果有問題請詢問超奇娛樂說他們不是主辦"},{"start":94.125,"end":114.24,"text":"所以現在出現了一個非常大的問題是有這麼多接下來可能會遇到的消費爭議可是連主辦到底是誰都不知道是不是可以請部長在這邊再次的回去請文化 請我們同仁好好的調查因為這攸關接下來粉絲到底會不會遇到任何的消費爭議的問題因為現在的消費爭議就已經很多了幫我下一頁"},{"start":121.209,"end":137.729,"text":"那這個是第一個想要請部長幫我們回去調查的一件事情到底有沒有合法因為如果他是澳門的公司必須還要符合一些中港澳在台的一些的商業行為的規範嘛那也要符合兩岸條例跟公司法"},{"start":138.109,"end":153.133,"text":"那第二個是這個超級娛樂我們也去調查了他背後的負責人這個澳門人他其實是中國的一個統戰部底下共青團的成員那如果他的身份又這麼複雜的話"},{"start":155.114,"end":182.523,"text":"也還有可能會違反兩岸條例裡面跟中國黨務有一些合作的行為也有可能違反兩岸條例所以第二件事情想要請文化部接下來也回去再跟陸委會一起協助的部分就是如果這個超級娛樂背後有一些就是類似統戰他們有一些相關的合作的話是不是有違反兩岸條例這個也要拜託部長好 下一個"},{"start":183.988,"end":202.242,"text":"好那再來就進到這個整件事情最大的爭議點這個是直接在網路上的一個看起來是已經是黃牛的一個販售行為在還沒有開賣之前我說5月10號才賣票嘛可是在此之前網路上已經有人在販售囉而且還是加價販售"},{"start":203.283,"end":220.035,"text":"然後他們是一個中國的公司那所以台灣很多粉絲就很困惑說那請問我現在像這個已經明確的黃牛我到底要怎麼處理如果你說在台灣的主辦單位叫做藝尚公司的話那像這種東西到底該怎麼處理呢再看下一頁"},{"start":221.748,"end":237.681,"text":"這個是這兩張圖都是目前已經出現在這個中國網站上面的黃牛的售票資訊那像這部分到底該怎麼辦是不是先請我們文化部部長或同仁可不可以跟我們說明一下像這種情形到底該怎麼處理"},{"start":238.783,"end":265.734,"text":"好 這個問題其實我覺得蠻嚴重因為如果這件事情如果不面對未來會這種灰色地帶會一直生存所以我覺得我們文化部能夠了解就是其實我們已經開始進入跟經濟部什麼已經開始談將來下一步就是要跟陸委會經濟部來一起討論目前我們能做的就希望大家不要買因為它現在已經做成是一個它的操作是在境外"},{"start":266.474,"end":282.045,"text":"中國的操作然後剛剛委員有提供我們一個更勁爆就是他的這個負責人是一個有這種背景的有官方背景的那我一直是很贊成文化交流可是文化交流的另外一面就是"},{"start":282.705,"end":306.655,"text":"文化滲透我們都了解中國現在對文化滲透是非常積極的像這樣的一個事情其實就已經有點接近了這件事情很嚴重那我想我們積極的去跟陸委會還有經濟部來了解像這樣一個我們現在怎麼制裁他在這麼短時間內我們除了呼籲之外我們就只能追究在台灣的這一家善意這樣"},{"start":307.495,"end":324.298,"text":"好 那所以所以我覺得接下來要趕快釐清因為現在其實文化部初步給我的回覆是說在5月10號官方開賣之前的所有的這些網站的票券都不要買嘛呼籲大家不要就等於是很有可能受騙上當"},{"start":325.299,"end":340.881,"text":"因為它等於就是類似詐騙的行為了嘛對啊它不只是黃牛它甚至因為它沒有任何保障因為它不是來自官方的訊息所以在此之前也呼籲大家就不要購買了那一切的官方資訊以5月10號官方網站公告的資訊為主對嗎"},{"start":342.763,"end":358.682,"text":"這是第一個我覺得委員提出來之後這個馬上就會變成一個話題一個議題應該很多人會注意到這個地方好 這是第一個但是現在的問題是說很明顯現在這個上億公司很有可能它只是一個就是境內的代理"},{"start":359.403,"end":377.168,"text":"他是一個空的沒有實質在運作的所以如果接下來如果消費者有跟這個主辦單位有任何的消費爭議就例如說他售票退票換票然後有任何的可能有私下的一些黃牛的行為那我們是可以請這個益尚公司出來負責的嗎"},{"start":379.008,"end":397.409,"text":"我們已經通知這個藝商公司跟他講說這個所有行為包括他的iPhone要怎麼賣這些我們都提醒他萬一出事我們就追究好 謝謝部長的承諾這件事情非常重要因為直到現在官方網站上面寫的主辦單位都還叫做超級"},{"start":398.991,"end":421.36,"text":"也就是說他們大剌剌的把這個中國的網站這個澳門的這個家公司當然背後也是中國的一個母公司啦他直接寫說他是主辦單位喔等於是如果我們沒有去跟他確認說在台有一個合法的一個公司的話看起來就是我們讓一個中國的公司在台灣辦一個非法的活動喔"},{"start":422.2,"end":447.487,"text":"這個必須要釐清所以他沒有在台灣登記子公司沒錯他是違法的他在台灣沒有登記所以這件事情一定要讓更多人知道這個主辦單位他上面這個寫超期是不對的不可以這樣寫這個也要拜託我們文化部跟這個上億公司想清楚說你不能在台灣辦活動結果你直接用一個境外的公司直接大剌剌的寫你是主辦好謝謝那最後最後葉"},{"start":451.789,"end":475.459,"text":"好最後兩個就是我給部長看的一個示範圖這個是普信會的見面會然後下一個這個是李敏昊的見面會那其實從照片就可以很明確看到他們在演出嘛那所以我在這邊還是再次的呈置最後一次的建議就是我們剛剛也做成了臨時提案的建議就是拜託文化部回去演你"},{"start":475.839,"end":479.902,"text":"因為實質上粉絲見面會這種簽名握手會雖然是叫這個名稱但它實質上就是一個演藝人員的表演活動然後他們這種販售的售票行為其實往往都是更搶手的因為可能名額很有限因為要可以互動所以這種等於是小型的有點類似小型的演藝活動了"},{"start":499.913,"end":515.698,"text":"這種因為它名額很少所以那種搶購的樣態更多那很擔心就是會有人從中謀利當然我們要杜絕這樣的黃牛一定是要更積極的查處才行那我也知道文化部非常辛苦因為檢舉量很大"},{"start":517.859,"end":535.965,"text":"然後跟各地的縣市政府的合作也必須要非常保持密切這非常感謝你們但是最後我還是希望這類型的表演活動它都是一種文化產業的型態那所以希望能夠適用文創法最後建議 謝謝部長謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝黃婕委員好 部長請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1030,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（13時24分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：黃委員你好。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝，大家辛苦了到下午這個時間。我還是跟部長再次澄清，絕對沒有任何年齡歧視的問題，這整件事情都跟年齡沒有關係，我相信所有的年齡層都非常喜歡追星、都有各式各樣的追星活動，所以我今天也是想要藉這個機會再次跟部長來請教，這是一個已經即將發生的個案，因為它們5月10號就要賣票了，其實早上有委員提到，他們兩位是一個泰劇的女性偶像，即將在臺灣辦粉絲見面會。首先我要請教的是，因為我已經跟文化部詢問過，也進行過調查，這個活動的主辦單位到底是澳門的超奇公司，還是臺灣的藝尚公司？文化部跟我回復，是臺灣的藝尚公司，可是請部長看這兩張圖，一個是官方網站上的頁面，直接寫到主辦單位超奇娛樂，右邊是一位粉絲去私訊它們認定的主辦單位藝尚公司，他想要詢問一些售票的細節，結果藝尚公司跟他說：你好，如果有問題請詢問超奇娛樂，並說它們不是主辦。所以現在出現一個非常大的問題是，有這麼多接下來可能會遇到的消費爭議，可是連主辦到底是誰都不知道，是不是可以請部長在這邊請文化部同仁回去好好的調查，因為這攸關接下來粉絲到底會不會遇到任何的消費爭議問題，現在的消費爭議就已經很多了，這是第一個，想要請部長幫我們回去調查到底有沒有合法？因為如果它是澳門的公司，必須還要符合一些中港澳在臺的商業行為規範，也要符合兩岸條例跟公司法。","第二個，我們也去調查超奇娛樂背後的負責人是澳門人，他其實是中國統一戰線工作部底下共青團的成員，如果他的身分又這麼複雜的話，也有可能會違反兩岸條例裡面跟中國黨務有一些合作的行為，所以第二件事情想要請文化部回去再跟陸委會一起協助的部分，就是如果超奇娛樂背後有一些類似統戰相關合作的話，是不是有違反兩岸條例？這個也要拜託部長。","再來就進到整件事情最大的爭議點，這是直接在網路上看起來已經是黃牛的販售行為，我說5月10號才開始賣票，可是在還沒有開賣之前網路上已經有人在販售，而且還是加價販售，它們是中國的公司。所以臺灣很多粉絲就很困惑說，請問現在像這個已經是明確的黃牛，我到底要怎麼處理？如果你說在臺灣的主辦單位叫藝尚公司的話，像這種情況到底該怎麼處理呢？這兩張圖都是目前已經出現在中國網站上的黃牛售票資訊，像這部分到底該怎麼辦？是不是先請文化部部長或同仁跟我們說明一下，像這種情形到底該怎麼處理？"],["李部長遠：好，這個問題其實我覺得蠻嚴重，因為這件事情如果不面對，未來這種灰色地帶會一直重複。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["李部長遠：所以文化部能夠了解，其實我們也已經開始跟經濟部談，將來下一步就是要跟陸委會、經濟部來一起討論，目前我們能做的就是希望大家不要買，因為它是在中國境外的操作，剛剛委員有提供我們一個更勁爆的，就是它的負責人是有官方背景的。我一直很贊成文化交流，可是文化交流的另外一面就是文化滲透，我們都了解中國現在對文化滲透是非常積極的，像這樣的事情其實就已經有點接近了。這件事情很嚴重，我們會積極地去跟陸委會，還有經濟部了解，像這樣的情況我們怎麼制裁它，在這麼短時間內，我們除了呼籲之外，就只能追究在臺灣的藝尚公司。"],["黃委員捷：好，所以我覺得接下來要趕快釐清，因為其實文化部初步給我的回復是說，在5月10號官方開賣之前所有網站的票券都不要買，呼籲大家不要買，因為就很有可能受騙上當，等於是類似詐騙的行為了嘛！它不只是黃牛，因為它沒有任何保障，不是來自官方的訊息，所以在此之前也呼籲大家就不要購買了，一切資訊以5月10號官方網站公告的資訊為主，對嗎？這是第一個。"],["李部長遠：對啊！我覺得委員提出來之後，這個馬上就會變成一個話題、一個議題，應該很多人會注意到這個地方。"],["黃委員捷：好，這是第一個。但是現在的問題是，很明顯現在這個藝尚公司很有可能只是一個境內的代理，它是一個空的、沒有實質在運作的。所以接下來如果消費者跟主辦單位有任何的消費爭議，就例如說它售票、退票、換票，或者有任何可能私下的一些黃牛的行為，我們是可以請這個藝尚公司出來負責的嗎？"],["李部長遠：我們已經通知藝尚公司，跟它講說所有行為，包括ibon要怎麼賣，這些我們都提醒過它，萬一出事，我們就追究。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長的承諾，這件事情非常重要，因為直到現在官方網站上面寫的主辦單位都還叫做超奇，也就是說，他們大辣辣地把這個澳門的公司，當然背後也是中國的一個母公司，它直接寫它是主辦單位，等於是如果我們沒有去跟它確認在臺有一個合法的公司的話，看起來就是我們讓一個中國的公司在臺灣辦一個非法的活動，這個必須要釐清。"],["李部長遠：它沒有在臺灣登記子公司……"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["李部長遠：所以它是違法的。"],["黃委員捷：它在臺灣沒有登記，所以這件事情一定要讓更多人知道，主辦單位上面寫超奇是不對的！不可以這樣寫。這個也要拜託文化部跟藝尚公司講清楚，你不能在臺灣辦活動，結果卻用一個境外的公司直接大辣辣地寫你是主辦。","最後兩個投影片就是我給部長看的一個示範圖，這個是朴信惠的見面會，然後下一個是李敏鎬的見面會，其實從照片就可以很明確看到他們在演出，我在這邊還是最後一次誠摯地建議，我們剛剛也做成了臨時提案的建議，拜託文化部回去研擬，因為實質上粉絲見面會、這種簽名握手會，雖然是叫這個名稱，但它實質上就是一個演藝人員的表演活動，他們這種販售的售票行為其實往往都是更搶手的，因為可以互動可能名額很有限，所以等於有點類似小型的演藝活動，也因為名額很少，所以搶購的樣態更多，很擔心會有人從中謀利，當然我們要杜絕這樣的黃牛，一定是要更積極的查處才行。我也知道因為檢舉量很大，文化部非常辛苦，然後跟各地的縣市政府合作也必須要非常保持密切，非常感謝你們。但是最後我還是建議，像這類型的表演活動都是一種文化產業的型態，所以希望能夠適用文創法，最後建議，謝謝部長。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員，部長請回。","接下來請邱志偉、邱志偉，邱志偉委員質詢不在。","今天質詢登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，另外有邱志偉委員提出書面質詢。","關於今天會議作如下決議：報告及詢答完畢，委員所提書面之質詢或相關資料列入紀錄，並刊登公報。對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答復部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-10","speakers":["林宜瑾","郭昱晴","劉書彬","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","柯志恩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳秀寳","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","葉元之","范雲","蘇巧慧","黃捷","陳培瑜","邱志偉"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算解凍案49案","agenda_id":"1144601_00005"}}},{"id":"161030","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161030","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e066cf02cbd1c52a9c96a086056f51b23ebb4f448269aea9776101d8e2190a533195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"13:16:49 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那有請部長 謝謝好 我們請李部長"},{"start":7.841,"end":32.836,"text":"好 謝謝部長好 委員好好 部長我們絕對沒有年齡歧視的問題我要再次重申這個立場非常的嚴肅好 我想要跟部長討論有一個案子是最近發生在花蓮的新城因為他們要蓋一個新建大樓是用國發基金結果在蓋大樓的過程當中發現有非常少見的大分科文化城市目前台灣最早的新石器時代群"},{"start":33.576,"end":56.153,"text":"那當地的議員跟文化局進而開了相關的考察會議很多專家學者說不要倉促搶救要嚴謹評估主要是因為在我們的相關辦法裡面呢如果有發現考古遺址在新建的大樓原地我們可以幾個方法一個是原地保留變更設計搶救發掘那目前可能最好的方法是原地保留"},{"start":56.673,"end":75.957,"text":"可是花蓮縣政府說因為這個錢國發基金來的不容易爭取很怕如果沒有往下蓋這個錢就不見了但是我們看到相關的文資審議跟辦法裡頭其實文化部應該可以有一些作為應該不要放任地方政府就做出倉促的決定在之前2018年南投埔里鄉為了設置鎮長歡迎您的一個電子看板"},{"start":81.258,"end":94.287,"text":"就破壞了當地的文資那已經無可挽回那我們很希望最近這個新的案例文化部可以有一些角色可不可以請部長回應一下就其實這個東西因為他全力在"},{"start":95.273,"end":119.547,"text":"那個地方政府所以我們其實已經知道這個事情我們請花蓮縣政府要按照文資法相關規定來辦理然後尊重審議會因為他會成立一個審議會專業審議這是在法令上但是在我個人來講這個真的是非常重要的一個發現六千年到四千三百年這個對台灣的歷史來講是非常重要的新時期時代"},{"start":120.367,"end":146.274,"text":"所以我想在我們權力範圍內我們會要求花蓮縣政府慎重處理這個好那因為我很怕花蓮縣政府只是被查報請文化部被查不管是審議會的專家委員夠不夠或者是可信任度夠不夠或者是有沒有請聽民意請聽當地議員的聲音我都希望文化部可以在合法規範的情況下積極的督導跟協助地方政府"},{"start":146.914,"end":157.901,"text":"好謝謝那接下來跟部長快速討論一下文化幣已經上路兩年了那感謝文化部今年開始把年齡向下延伸到13歲這個事情非常重要可是相關政策我們都要來看現在實行的狀況第一個我們來看文化幣的消費點的分類我覺得有"},{"start":163.784,"end":187.753,"text":"值得討論的地方現在把所謂表演藝術跟文化體驗框在一起全台灣的體驗點一萬五千多也就是佔百分之八十幾可是到底什麼叫表演藝術什麼叫文化體驗說實話現在的分類是不清不楚的根據文化部你們給我們的說明說所謂表演藝術跟文化體驗含了音樂表演視覺等藝術展演及文化體驗活動的"},{"start":190.414,"end":214.202,"text":"據點周邊展會市集活動票券售票平台可是如果我們要把這個文化幣消費的資料跟消費者的喜好變成未來產業發展或是文化部在擬定相關政策這些數據絕對是重要參考但是因為現在都混在一起了其實我認為光是你們文化部未來做政策規劃你們都會覺得很困擾到底這所謂的"},{"start":216.143,"end":237.542,"text":"15000多個點混在一起到底是什麼狀況好所以我認為這樣的統計沒有問題但是這個分類有問題所以才會得到這個統計數字這是第一個我覺得分類有問題第二個我們可以看到目前文化幣的消費點跟主要消費區域集中在台北台中高雄接下來才是另外三都新北桃園跟台南這是目前你們給我們的數據"},{"start":238.823,"end":251.389,"text":"那我們來看一下在不同縣市的消費點我來抓一個最大的好了最大消費族群在圖書出版跟點位最多的表演文化藝術體驗這個變化量都不大可是表演藝術文化體驗的變化量比較大"},{"start":255.111,"end":278.643,"text":"怎麼說因為縣市落差實在太大例如說在台北跟嘉義的獨立書店台中跟新竹的表演藝術文化部長這個相關數字你都看得見這些現象我認為剛好文化幣上路兩年了我們應該要用這些珍貴的數字來看未來台灣在做圖書出版也好表演藝術及文化體驗不管是考慮到城鄉差距考慮到"},{"start":280.764,"end":305.589,"text":"補助扶植產業各式各樣我們都要回過頭來看這些數據這是第二個方向提供給部長參考第三個我們來看領取率因為領取率其實對文化部應該最重要因為你們要知道達成率現在各縣市的領取率全台灣是86%我們如果把不足80的標出來部長你這邊有看到台北市是不足80的可是我覺得有一個點很有趣部長你看一下台東"},{"start":307.009,"end":312.115,"text":"是全台灣第三台灣台東台東他有全台灣第三多的文化幣消費點他有2090個消費點僅次於台北4180個台中6796個第三名他的消費點是第三多"},{"start":325.711,"end":343.491,"text":"可是它的領取率卻只有56%如果我們希望文化幣的發放是促成改善偏鄉跟城鄉差距的話我們應該要回過頭問台東有這麼多個點可是為什麼台東的青年領取率很低"},{"start":344.492,"end":359.584,"text":"我覺得我們有沒有機會來做這個分析跟研究或者是我們去做相關問卷去傾聽一下台東戶籍在台東那他可能是沒有下載也可能是他不知道或是他下載了之後他發現這兩千多個點他都不好用"},{"start":360.365,"end":374.903,"text":"因為我覺得很奇怪它的點這麼多是全台灣第三多但是它的領取率卻非常非常低幾乎是最低56%所以我剛剛以上講了這麼多我想要快速給文化部一些建議第一個我想請文化部把表演藝術跟視覺藝術單獨拉出來統計"},{"start":378.787,"end":387.93,"text":"而文化體驗所含括的市集活動票券消費平台要應該標示出來並且應該在文化幣的網站使用報告上說明各類別的商家定義種類等重要資訊給藝文界參考也給文化部部內自己做政策規劃的參考還有我認為要設計相關的使用回饋問卷"},{"start":401.334,"end":417.935,"text":"因為已經上路兩年了錢已經花這麼多我認為相關的問卷會讓我們更加理解領文化幣的青年13到22歲他們的需求跟這些政策如何更靠近他們好 以上那部長可不可以給我們這個報告兩個月內我剛提了這麼多的問題"},{"start":421.445,"end":431.358,"text":"可以有兩個月內我們會往下追蹤謝謝你剛才提的非常有意思我們來做一個報告一定需要的因為你們後續也需要做政策規劃好不好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝陳培宇委員部長請回再來我們請黃婕委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1006,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（13時16分）謝謝主席，有請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：我們請李部長。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，我們絕對沒有年齡歧視的問題，我要再次重申這個立場，非常的嚴肅！"],["李部長遠：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：我想要跟部長討論，有一個案子是最近發生在花蓮的新城，因為他們要蓋一個新建大樓，是用國發基金，結果在蓋大樓的過程當中發現有非常少見的大坌坑文化層，是目前臺灣最早的新石器時代群，當地議員跟文化局已經開了相關的考察會議，很多專家學者說不要倉促搶救，要嚴謹評估。主要是因為在我們的相關辦法裡面，如果有發現考古遺址在新建的大樓原地，我們可以有幾個方法，分別是原地保留、變更設計、搶救發掘，目前可能最好的方法是原地保留，可是花蓮縣政府說，因為國發基金這個錢來得不容易爭取，很怕如果沒有往下蓋，這個錢就不見了。但是我們看到相關的文資審議跟辦法裡頭，其實文化部應該可以有一些作為，應該不要放任地方政府做出倉促的決定。在之前2018年，南投埔里鄉為了設置「鎮長歡迎您」的一個電子看板，就破壞了當地的文資，已經無可挽回，我們很希望最近這個新的案例，文化部可以有一些角色，可不可以請部長回應一下？"],["李部長遠：其實這個東西因為權利在地方政府，我們已經知道這個事情。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["李部長遠：我們有請花蓮縣政府要按照文資法相關規定來辦理，尊重審議會，因為會成立一個審議會專業審議，這是在法令上。但是在我個人來講，這個真的是非常重要的一個發現，距今6,000年到4,300年，這個對臺灣的歷史來講是非常重要的新石器時代。所以我想在我們權力範圍內，我們會要求花蓮縣政府慎重處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。因為我很怕花蓮縣政府只是備查，報請文化部備查。"],["李部長遠：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：不管是審議會的專家委員夠不夠，或者是可信任度夠不夠，或者是有沒有傾聽民意、傾聽當地議員的聲音，我都希望文化部可以在合法規範的情況下積極督導跟協助地方政府。謝謝。","接下來跟部長快速討論一下，文化幣已經上路兩年了，感謝文化部今年開始把年齡向下延伸到13歲，這個事情非常重要，可是相關政策我們都要來看現在實行的狀況。第一個，我們來看文化幣消費點的分類，我覺得有值得討論的地方。現在把所謂表演藝術及文化體驗框在一起，全臺灣的體驗點有一萬五千多，也就是占百分之八十幾，可是到底什麼叫表演藝術？什麼叫文化體驗？說實話，現在的分類是不清不楚的。根據文化部給我們的說明，所謂表演藝術及文化體驗，含音樂、表演、視覺等藝術展演及文化體驗活動的據點、周邊展會、市集活動、票券售票平台，可是如果我們要把文化幣消費的資料跟消費者的喜好變成未來產業發展，或文化部在擬定相關政策時，這些數據絕對是重要參考，但是因為現在都混在一起了，其實我認為光是文化部未來做政策規劃都會覺得很困擾，到底所謂的一萬五千多個點混在一起是什麼狀況，所以我認為這樣的統計沒有問題，但是分類有問題，所以才會得到這個統計數字，這是第一個我覺得分類有問題。","第二個，我們可以看到目前文化幣的消費點跟主要消費區域，集中在臺北、臺中、高雄，接下來才是另外三都新北、桃園跟臺南，這是目前你們給我們的數據，我們來看在不同縣市的消費點，我抓一個最大的好了，最大消費族群在圖書及出版跟點位最多的表演藝術及文化體驗，這個變化量都不大，可是表演藝術及文化體驗的變化量比較大，因為縣市落差實在太大，例如在臺北跟嘉義的獨立書店、臺中跟新竹的表演藝術文化，部長，這個相關數字你都看得見，這些現象我認為剛好文化幣上路兩年了，我們應該要用這些珍貴的數字來看，未來臺灣在做圖書及出版也好、表演藝術及文化體驗也好，不管是考慮到城鄉差距、考慮到補助扶植產業，各式各樣，我們都要回過頭來看這些數據，這是第二個方向提供給部長參考。","第三個，我們來看領取率，其實領取率對文化部應該最重要，因為你們要知道達成率。現在各縣市的領取率全臺灣是86%，我們如果把不足80%的標出來，部長，你有看到臺北市是不足80%的，可是我覺得有一個點很有趣，部長，你看臺東有全臺灣第三多的文化幣消費點，它有2,090個消費點，僅次於臺北4,180個、臺中6,796個，臺東的消費點是第三多，可是它的領取率卻只有56%，如果我們希望文化幣的發放是促成改善城鄉差距的話，應該要回過頭問，臺東有這麼多個點，可是為什麼臺東的青年領取率很低？我覺得我們有沒有機會來做這個分析跟研究？或者是我們去做相關問卷，去傾聽戶籍在臺東的青年，他可能是沒有下載、也可能是不知道，或是下載之後他發現這兩千多個點都不好用，因為我覺得很奇怪，臺東的點數量這麼多，是全臺灣第三多，但是領取率卻非常低，幾乎是最低，只有56%。","所以我剛剛講了這麼多，我想要快速給文化部一些建議，第一個，我想請文化部把表演藝術跟視覺藝術單獨拉出來統計，而文化體驗所含括的市集活動、票券消費平台應該標示出來，並且要在文化幣網站、使用報告上說明各類別的商家定義、種類等重要資訊，給藝文界參考，也給文化部部內自己做政策規劃的參考。還有要設計相關的使用回饋問卷，因為已經上路兩年了，錢已經花這麼多，我認為相關的問卷會讓我們更加理解13到22歲青年領文化幣的需求跟這些政策如何更靠近他們。部長，兩個月內可不可以給我們這個報告？我剛剛提了這麼多的問題。","好，可以喔！兩個月內，我們會往下追蹤。"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員剛剛提的建議，非常有意思，我們來做一個報告。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，一定需要的，因為你們後續也需要做政策規劃，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員，部長請回。","再來請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-10","speakers":["林宜瑾","郭昱晴","劉書彬","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","柯志恩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳秀寳","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","葉元之","范雲","蘇巧慧","黃捷","陳培瑜","邱志偉"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算解凍案49案","agenda_id":"1144601_00005"}}},{"id":"161029","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161029","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e06cbcffce679d2b3d204869f6baa92091db4f448269aea977659671ad967cd14905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:54:56 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主席我想請教一個很實際的事情選戰期間假如有候選人把執政黨或在野黨的主席肖像合成到自己的競選廣告旗幟並且把它放置在各個看得到的公共場合上面讓民眾誤以為這個人是執政黨或在野黨支持的候選人這樣的做法你認為合不合法有沒有誤導選民的疑慮"},{"start":35.657,"end":64.112,"text":"是否誤導選民在看個人他的感受這個我們就沒有辦法去做認定什麼叫個人的感受什麼叫沒有辦法去認定當一個單一選區的時候執政黨支持的候選人就只有一位他也只授權那一位的候選人在他的席次上出現那其他人使用的話就是混淆其他民眾這麼簡單的事情會有什麼好認定有什麼不是他個人的感覺這個效果有時候會正向的有時候會是反向的"},{"start":64.212,"end":88.338,"text":"有時候是正向有時候是反向中選會不是要指導它正向或反向中選會是要確保選舉能夠用公平的方式來進行中選會的存在就是要避免我們其他威權的國家用民主的手段顛覆民主你怎麼跟我說大家要怎麼認定我為什麼很重視這件事情因為包含在俄羅斯他們的執政黨多次利用這樣子的方式來去混淆民主陣營的在選票上面的這個表現"},{"start":89.458,"end":109.487,"text":"這在所有在極權國家裡面還有一點選舉制度想要去濫用想要去操作的話就用這種的方式我過去不斷的在提醒這件事情就是因為它已經在我們多次的選舉出現從縣市議員到立法委員的選舉而這一些選舉人的後面的背景包含跟統治黨等等都有關係我也具體 具名"},{"start":109.847,"end":123.662,"text":"把這些相關的資訊給中選會給入委會結果要處理的竟然是入委會而不是中選會我們不是支持或反對哪一個候選人我們要確保的是這個制度能夠去公平的去做所以我們有提出這個第50條第52條公職連連選罷法第52條的這個修正草案裡面就是在針對這個部分嘛"},{"start":128.027,"end":154.972,"text":"那你剛剛提說這涉及政黨你們還有回文喔說這是涉及政黨會選人之間的自主事項肖像權可以用民法處理這是你們給我們的這個辦公室的回覆那我就回想到有在野黨的這些委員有說包含選罷法我們可以等到這個選舉完結束之後選罷法結束之後我們再用民法再去做我們再用相關的法案再去做選舉都結束之後還有辦法這樣做嗎"},{"start":156.861,"end":176.808,"text":"這樣的選舉還有什麼公平性可言所以我必須要回復之前中選會給我們的回函這個不是單純的肖像權的問題這不是個人的問題這個是選舉的公平公正的這個基本的這個架構中選會有責任要管可是在我們之前提出的修法法案你們跟我們說這樣子是這個是這個這個交給這個司法機構都選完了是要怎麼交給司法機構"},{"start":181.221,"end":201.716,"text":"所以我是希望說類似這樣子的法案我們之前有提出來嘛就是說這個具體的這種不符合規制的文宣品他必須要連續罰嘛你不是要把誰你不是要做這個刑法的處置而是要說在制度上面來防範這樣的做法我們不是說因為他這樣子違反選法所以我們必須要給他這個"},{"start":202.697,"end":221.025,"text":"人身自由被他限制不是這樣子的而是說包含罰金罰則包含第一時間發生的這種錯假亂訊息的時候能夠有一個機制讓這些行政機關能夠把這樣子的危害降到最低我們講的是制度我們講的是機制而不是法律上面說要怎麼樣去懲罰那一個人沒有"},{"start":221.425,"end":245.532,"text":"那是交給刑事 交給司法我們講說制度上面要怎麼樣去更改所以上一次的選 包含在國會的選單一選區的時候我們就看到不只是在嘉義 雲林 高雄整個南部地區有大量的律師用這種混淆的方式不管是用執政黨的這個肖像來去營造說他是受執政黨支持的候選人來去做分化的這種做法混淆選民的做法"},{"start":246.232,"end":270.244,"text":"不斷的在存在著而且我們還沒有方法去改變我想請問主委有什麼建議這樣子有這樣的這種制度上面我們可以怎麼去做這種現象固然是不好但是它的不好的程度到底是到違反需要用刑事來處置或者行政的管理主委我剛才從頭到尾有講到用刑事上面嗎對"},{"start":271.164,"end":300.404,"text":"我從頭到尾都在講制度怎麼樣去避免所以我想說我現在在問說不是在這種形式上面而是說包含在罰則罰金上面怕我們不要我就說我們不需要做限制自由限制自由是最最極端的做法來做限制自由在選戰期間限制任何人的自由都會影響到選戰的公平性行政的管理那這樣我原來講的是行政的管理對這個地方是那這個行政的管理照現有的選罷法也許根據跟這個中選會有關的部分就是它這個廣告物的設置"},{"start":301.905,"end":324.526,"text":"廣告物的設置是否有違反相關法令的規定有的話我們要去處理的即使地方的選務機關管不到也許是地方政府應該要管的這個責任大家要釐清至於委員最關心的這一點老實說我不敢正面的去回答你就是說他用一個"},{"start":326.008,"end":342.306,"text":"不應該是放在那邊的這個肖像讓選民造成錯誤 印象的錯亂影響到他的選舉的投票那這一點到底是要去如何的管制中選會能不能夠管到這一點"},{"start":343.638,"end":367.893,"text":"容我 容我沒關係 那麻煩就是做一些研究我們來避免這樣的說法日本很清楚的黨首的這個肖像在哪個黨員 在哪些支持者上面都有很嚴格的規定因為他要確保好不好 拜託一下就是要趕快因為馬上接下來我們台灣會面臨很多場的不同的選舉我們希望他的公平性不是給執政黨而已給自衛黨也都要有公平性這是我們希望做到的好不好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1184,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（12時55分）請主委。"],["主席：有請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：主委好。主委，請教一個很實際的事情。"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["陳委員冠廷：選戰期間假如有候選人把執政黨或在野黨的主席肖像合成到自己的競選廣告及旗幟，並且把它放置在各個看得到的公共場合上，讓民眾誤以為這個人是執政黨或在野黨支持的候選人，這樣的作法，你認為合不合法？有沒有誤導選民的疑慮？"],["李主任委員進勇：是否誤導選民，這看個人的感受，這個我們就沒有辦法去做認定。"],["陳委員冠廷：什麼叫個人的感受？什麼叫沒有辦法認定？當一個單一選區的時候，執政黨支持的候選人就只有一位，他也只授權那一位的候選人在他的旗幟上出現，其他人使用的話，就是混淆其他民眾，這麼簡單的事情會有什麼好認定、有什麼不知道他個人的感覺呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個效果有時候會正向的，有時候會是反向。"],["陳委員冠廷：有時候是正向，有時候是反向，中選會不是要指導他正向或反向，中選會是要確保選舉能夠用公平的方式來進行。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：中選會的存在就是要避免其他威權的國家用民主的手段顛覆民主，你怎麼跟我說要怎麼認定？我為什麼很重視這件事情，因為包含在俄羅斯的執政黨都是利用這樣子的方式，來混淆民主陣營在選票上面的表現，這在所有極權國家裡面，還有一點選舉制度，想要去濫用、去操作的話，就用這種的方式。我過去不斷的在提醒這件事情，就是因為它已經在我們多次的選舉出現，從縣市議員到立法委員的選舉，而這一些選舉人後面的背景，包含跟統促黨等等都有關係，我也具名把這些相關的資訊提供給中選會及陸委會，結果要處理的竟然是陸委會，而不是中選會，我們不是支持或反對哪一個候選人，我們要確保的是這個制度能夠公平的去做，所以我們有提出公職人員選罷法第五十二條的修正草案，就是在針對這個部分，你剛剛提到這涉及政黨，你們還有回文說這是涉及政黨候選人之間的自主事項，肖像權可以用民法處理。這是你們給我們辦公室的回復，我就回想到有在野黨的這些委員有說，包含選罷法，我們可以等到選舉完結束之後，我們再用民法再去做、再用相關的法案去做，選舉都結束了，還有辦法這樣做嗎？這樣的選舉還有什麼公平性可言？","所以，我必須要回復之前中選會給我們的回函，這個不是單純的肖像權的問題，這不是個人的問題，這是選舉的公平公正的基本架構，中選會有責任要管，可是在我們之前提出的修法法案，你們跟我們說要交給司法機構，都選完了是要怎麼交給司法機構？所以我是希望類似這樣的法案，我們之前有提出來，這些這種不符合規制的文宣品，它必須要連續罰嘛！你不是要做刑法的處置，而是要在制度上來防範這樣的作法。我們不是說因為他違反選罷法，所以我們必須要限制他個人的人身自由，不是這樣子的，而是要包含罰金及罰則，包含第一時間發現到這種錯假亂訊息的時候，能夠有一個機制，讓這些行政機關能夠把這樣子的危害降到最低，我們講的是制度、我們講的是機制，而不是法律上面說要怎麼樣去懲罰那一個人，沒有！那是交給刑事、交給司法，我們講的是制度上面要怎麼樣去更改？","所以上一次的選舉，在國會的單一選區的時候，我們就看到不只是在嘉義、雲林及高雄，整個南部地區有大量的類似用這種混淆的方式，不管是用執政黨的肖像來去營造說他是執政黨支持的候選人來做分化的這種做法、混淆選民的做法，不斷地存在著，而且我們還沒有方法去改變，請教主委有什麼建議？制度上要怎麼做？"],["李主任委員進勇：我想這種現象固然是不好，但是它的不好的程度，到底是違反到什麼樣的程度，需要用刑事來處置或者行政的管理？"],["陳委員冠廷：主委，我剛才從頭到尾有講到用刑事嗎？我從頭到尾都在講制度怎麼樣去避免，我現在請教的是，不是在這種刑事上面，而是包含在罰則、罰金上面，我不希望是限制自由……"],["李主任委員進勇：對，行政的管理。"],["陳委員冠廷：限制自由是最極端的做法，在選戰期間限制任何人的自由，都會影響到選戰的公平性。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員講的是行政的管理。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，這地方要如何做？"],["李主任委員進勇：這行政的管理照現有的選罷法，也許跟中選會有關的部分，就是它這個廣告物的設置是否有違反相關法令的規定，有的話，我們要去處理，即使地方的選務機關管不到，也許是地方政府應該要管的，這個責任大家要釐清；至於委員最關心的這一點，老實說，我不敢正面的回答你，就是它用一個不應該是放在那邊的肖像，造成選民印象的錯亂，進而影響到選舉的投票，這點到底是要如何管制？中選會能不能管到這一點？容我現在沒有……"],["陳委員冠廷：沒關係，麻煩做一些研究，避免這樣的情況。日本很清楚的，黨首的肖像，在哪個黨員？在哪個支持者？都有很嚴格的規定，好不好？拜託一下。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們會來參考。"],["陳委員冠廷：接下來馬上要面臨很多場不同的選舉，它的公平性不是給執政黨而已，在野黨也要有公平性，這是希望我們做到的，好不好？謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：了解，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳冠廷委員。","接下來請陳培瑜委員質詢、陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員不在。","丁學忠委員改書面質詢。","最後請葉元之委員質詢、葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。","好，謝謝。登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。王美惠委員、高金素梅委員、翁曉玲委員、丁學忠委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":194,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-17","speakers":["牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","賴士葆","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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邀請主委 謝謝李主委有請委員好"},{"start":16.153,"end":41.698,"text":"主委辛苦了今天一整天我看很多問題都是重複不是也是沒辦法的事情不是每個人都會去聽前面的人講了什麼我覺得剛剛吳委員的這一個其實我認為是蠻重要的因為有時候我們常常進步二讀的狀況之下很多東西會沒有配套措施所以這個部分我們當然還是會極力的再來去爭取我今天想要問的比較偏向是這一個就是說我們現在罷免的干擾的態樣其實非常多"},{"start":44.699,"end":61.61,"text":"那我們有稍微整理了一下就是說這個先往後面就是說有一些行政上的干擾有場地的干涉然後也有一些立委的施壓甚至在質詢的時候施壓但我覺得跟中選會比較有關的應該是右上角啦因為其他的部分很多可能它是屬於這個內政部的權責"},{"start":64.332,"end":92.8,"text":"那這個選委不公比如說很短的時間要求要借回查詢單或者說以後有可能會拖延的審查時間或者說這一個不當的介入審查程序我覺得這幾件事情可能都需要有關注那這個部分我就想說也不用主委特別回答我只是想說反正他一樣就擺在那邊我們可能要特別注意那我今天比較想問的是兩個問題就好因為我只有五分鐘第一個就是這一次花蓮他們在這一個收的過程當中他們只有五個人在點"},{"start":93.76,"end":118.148,"text":"那這五個人在點我看也不是他們自己的問題因為他們其實應該可以找更多人啊有些人有壓力要有壓力不敢來點那這樣也沒有辦法所以他只有五個人來點那點的這個時間稍微比較長一點點了可能有超過十、十二個小時那他們在點的這個過程當中呢我們就發現因為我們的法條有一個選罷法八十條它規定說未依規定格式提出者應不予受理"},{"start":118.988,"end":143.295,"text":"那這個時候就會有一點疑惑比如說像我們之前花蓮不是格式有問題嗎跑掉了嘛所以當你格式出現問題的時候他當場可以說那這一張不可以或什麼等等之類的但有時候會有疑義比如說到底縮小放大啦或者說線的粗細啦那這種格式就這兩個字未依規定格式那個格式的解釋是當場他就要解釋然後當場做決定"},{"start":144.915,"end":166.067,"text":"還是說他要收下來之後然後開會討論因為我們現場問的時候他們就說他們要開會一下但問題是收的時間就那一天那如果說他當場又要開會那開會假如他那天已經點了12個小時他又要開會這個時間就拉得更長所以我在想說因為現在陸續都一直有在送件嘛中選會是不是有可能要給地方選委會一個比較統一的一個指導"},{"start":168.666,"end":196.306,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想這一次有關於不管是這個提案的連署或者是這個連署名冊的查對我們的標準是定則是夠周延的一共有三套三個辦法來提供給地方選委會來作為參考所以我說是一套標準一體適用這個是沒有問題的"},{"start":197.487,"end":216.536,"text":"當然在實務的運作上有時候有時候會發生就是當事人跟我們的選務工作人員大家意見相左的情況比如說包括這一次的這個花蓮當然花蓮跟台中這兩個地方都發生了一些這個認知的差距"},{"start":217.296,"end":227.948,"text":"但是經過溝通之後總是有一個辦法在那個地方作為一個標準經過溝通之後這兩個地方的問題都解決了我們認為這也是因為我們的這個辦法有夠周延"},{"start":232.273,"end":252.501,"text":"而且中央跟地方之間保持密切的一個聯繫中央可以做行政的指導所以這些問題應該到目前為止除了花蓮以及台中之外其他地方都相當的平順"},{"start":253.241,"end":275.553,"text":"對 因為我在想說就是這樣因為我們現在目前像這個要去看有沒有偽造啦居住期間的問題我看總共有十三十四個嘛 對不對這就是就是到時候會被剔除的這些聯署書啊這個實質的審查不可能在當場發生嘛當場只能看這個就是未依規定格式那未依規定格式目前來講我們當然就是其實我們辦公室也有發函給中選會幾次嘛 對不對然後就是說"},{"start":276.273,"end":289.878,"text":"這個格式到底要怎麼認定然後到最後可能讓他們這些團體他們可以用公文可以去說這可能是中學會相關的解釋那只是說當時就是說像剛剛主委有提到當時可能就是雙方溝通嘛然後可能這個領銜人在那邊他們也認為說確實啦這個格式有問題所以這一張可能不能用"},{"start":294.72,"end":321.349,"text":"但是因為領銜人的代表性就像剛剛嘉賓委員有提到的他是一個代表送件但是他到底有沒有被這個所有的人授權說他可以去同意或不同意這個格式的問題我覺得這有法律上的疑義啦所以這個當然我覺得在未來尤其是就是這一條未依規定格式那個格式的那個解釋如果能夠更清楚的話那就可以讓這樣的紛爭可能會變得更少我有這樣的建議那接下來因為有時間的關係我再快速問下一個就是"},{"start":324.388,"end":351.478,"text":"這個南投的這一件事情就是說因為南投他比較早他們是議員的罷免案他們很早就送了那我有看到就是說他們在第一階段的死亡連署是零就是完全沒有但是因為這一次因為基隆的這一個這個事件讓我們看到就是說這個死亡的連署有可能是戶政人員在一開始或者民政的人員一開始幫忙剔除發生這樣的一個醜聞嘛所以我想問一下因為4月14號的時候南投議員被罷免的已經送件了"},{"start":351.818,"end":375.803,"text":"那離現在已經也查對的時間應該完成了那他們在第二階段的這個死亡的數字現在出來了嗎因為我前陣子發公文問好像南投這個的地方的委員會他們還沒有一個回沒有一個沒有一個給我們數字上的回應是這點請委員能夠諒解就是以前我們有關於委員所知的部分都會是在查對的結果經過中選會委員會所以現在還在中選會對不對"},{"start":379.064,"end":403.083,"text":"認定了之後我們就會隨著委員會紀錄公布認定了之後雖然紀錄還沒有公布但是只要是立法委員基於問政的需求來函要所知我們也都會配合目前還沒有因為地方選委會應該審查期間完了但是還在中選會認定的過程當中有一件已經是送過來了那我們就在等待"},{"start":403.723,"end":432.604,"text":"那最後一個就快速的就是公投這件事情因為公投現在已經被提了四個案件光是立法院這邊我剛剛有聽前面的質詢已經有人問就是你有回答到到底算不算重大政策的這個創製跟覆決啦這是中選會要去認定的啦那我只提醒一件事情就好就是說因為他們不管是反戒嚴還是反這個廢死這一個他們今天那個廢死跟戒嚴的狀態在台灣不存在嘛所以我有在想一件事情就是中選會有沒有機會如果說到最後這件事情真的發生的話如果今天再不能"},{"start":433.004,"end":456.011,"text":"按照法條審議這是一件事到底能不能審議這是一個爭執另外一個就是我們有沒有可能去提起確認之訴因為我認為說在這樣的一個狀況之下如果說狀態本身不存在那你要怎麼去提起這樣的一個公投這個因為時間的關係今天沒有辦法繼續詢問但我們之後可能會針對因為公投在禮拜五的時候就要來看起來他們就要闖關了那我覺得接下來中選會就會遇到這樣的事情"},{"start":456.331,"end":472.406,"text":"中選會一定會做成決定那至於司法的認定的問題中選會不是適格的原告了對 當然當然當然但是我認為說其實某種程度上面我們必須要有一個確認之訴不然的話這件事情其實會變得非常奇怪是好 那就先這樣走 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簡單回答好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":223.041,"end":236.65,"text":"報告委員 目前的選罷法並沒有針對原住民選區在劃分為單一選區有規範這部分如果有共識的話是要透過修法來做處理修哪個法 哪一條選罷法選罷法哪一條"},{"start":241.004,"end":268.092,"text":"選罷法第35條那另外在憲法的部分以往也有討論就是說憲法增修條文第4條有規定就是我們平地原住民跟山地原住民的立法委員各三人那憲法也沒有一個依據就是比照這個區域立法委員選舉是以單一選區方式來辦理那以前立委一直都是單一選區嗎"},{"start":270.056,"end":290.998,"text":"是在修憲之後所以為什麼原住民不行所以剛才跟委員報告就是說有涉及到憲法還有我們選法全體的族人我不敢講100%至少90%都非常樂見我們原住民的立委也要單一選區也要做選區劃分那為什麼我們"},{"start":292.179,"end":307.073,"text":"要像這樣子服務全國其實我要講這個的意思是說好我們來看我過去我也有質詢過很多次那關於這個部分或者是我們因為是比照複數"},{"start":308.414,"end":333.07,"text":"所以过去要达到二分之一出缺才得以补选所以我过去也有版本我要讲的是说我的版本也没被排进来明天有一个人的版本要进复二读要做立法院长主持的协商那这个地方他是这么修他直接在第七十条修怎么修呢就直接把原住民立法委员加进去"},{"start":335.364,"end":359.399,"text":"僅僅修補選只做半套因為他沒有去連動修罷免的部分選區劃分的部分那他會變成怎麼樣我想就算強行表決他未來也會面對很多問題像是我們複數選區第一個就是票票不等值嘛他在罷免的時候會遇到票票不等值嘛因為我們看這個圖選舉的時候是一人投一張票"},{"start":363.522,"end":366.903,"text":"可是罷免的時候我們一個人可以罷三個人因為這個多出來的兩張票就變成是多數罷零少數那遇到補選的時候一樣票票不等值因為我們是複數選區因為選舉的時候全部的選民投出三個人可是補選的時候全部的選民投一個人"},{"start":388.735,"end":405.567,"text":"所以這個部分如果沒有連動的去考慮那像我的版本我是說英設補選當選門檻超過被罷免人當初得票數確保補選者的民意基礎大於被罷免人至少他去解決民意基礎不同的問題那當然"},{"start":407.708,"end":422.931,"text":"在二月的時候 前中選會主委也是憲政學者陳英賢他有特別去提醒說選罷法的第75條第二款全國不分區不適用罷免的規定嘛但是被排除這個精神的像原住民立委"},{"start":423.692,"end":441.028,"text":"他其實是原住民選制是介於區域跟不分區之間而他的全國性質是接近全國不分區所以呢他顯然是為了顧及原住民的特殊性必須別有安排才能保障原住民的權益但是現在"},{"start":441.909,"end":464.544,"text":"把這兩者罷免混為一談破壞了原來憲政設計的深思熟慮因此他建議於今之際或許只能寄望公民團體將六名原住民立委全部罷免然後全部一人一票重新選舉否則他認為這個滋生的疑慮未來要提請憲法法庭解釋以維護權益"},{"start":466.525,"end":483.071,"text":"那這樣好啦那議員的複數選區的罷免我就光講十幾個議員你罷掉一席雖然不能補選至少他有十幾十分之一但是你罷掉原住民一個不得補選是三分之一"},{"start":483.891,"end":509.759,"text":"他讲到底我要讲的是说就是选区划分的问题那我希望说这个部分我们希望中选会也好内政部也好一定要去针对这个部分将联动的复数选区的罢免选区的划分一并检讨为免造成未来宪政的不安定我举个例子好了这一次假设罢免成功"},{"start":511.601,"end":539.973,"text":"我們的修法只修只要出缺就得以補選那好啊未來每一屆當選的其中兩個立委就去罷掉另外一個立委我們就每一屆上演這個戲碼就好了所以我想這個部分作為選政機關也好選務機關也好不可以讓原住民的立委原住民族人的參政權"},{"start":541.328,"end":558.702,"text":"一直被大家漠視我很高興雖然我可能有機會被罷免但是我很高興至少求仁得仁心安理得至少這一次很積極的來處理這一件但是你不能做半套啊你選區劃分也要處理啊"},{"start":559.884,"end":582.866,"text":"我覺得這個連動到的都要修都要把它處理好因為個人被罷免是小事啊制度是千秋原住民的權益是千秋中華民國的憲政體制是千秋主委可以嗎我們要積極啊那我也希望到我的辦公室來跟我做說明好不好這整個未來衍生的問題可以嗎謝謝主委謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1134,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：全體的族人，我不敢講100%，至少90%都非常樂見我們原住民的立委也要單一選區、也要做選區劃分，為什麼我們要像這樣子服務全國？","其實我要講這個的意思是，我們來看，我過去也有質詢過很多次，關於這個部分或者是……我們因為是比照複數選區，所以過去要達到二分之一出缺才得以補選，因此我過去也有版本，我要講的是，我的版本也沒被排進來，明天有一個人的版本要逕付二讀、要進行立法院長主持的協商，這個地方他是這麼修，他直接在第七十條修，怎麼修呢？就直接把原住民立法委員加進去，僅僅修補選、只做半套，因為他沒有連動修罷免的部分、選區劃分的部分。這會變成怎麼樣？我想就算強行表決，這未來也會面對很多問題！","像我們複數選區，第一個就是票票不等值，在罷免的時候會遇到票票不等值，我們看這個圖，選舉的時候，是一人投一張票；可是罷免的時候，我們一個人可以罷三個人，這個多出來的兩張票就變成是多數霸凌少數，遇到補選的時候，一樣票票不等值，因為我們是複數選區，選舉的時候，全部的選民投出三個人；可是補選的時候，全部的選民投一個人。所以這個部分如果沒有連動的考慮，像我的版本是「應設補選當選門檻：超過被罷免人當初得票數確保補選者的民意基礎大於被罷免人」至少它去解決民意基礎不同的問題。當然，在2月的時候，前中選會主委、也是憲政學者陳英鈐，他特別提醒選罷法的第七十五條第二款，全國不分區不適用罷免的規定，但是被排除這個精神的像原住民立委，其實原住民選制是介於區域跟不分區之間，而他的全國性質是接近全國不分區。所以顯然是為了顧及原住民的特殊性，必須別有安排才能保障原住民的權益，但是現在把這兩者的罷免混為一談，破壞了原來憲政設計的深思熟慮。因此他建議，於今之計或許只能寄望公民團體，將六名原住民立委全部罷免，然後全部一人一票重新選舉。否則他認為會滋生疑慮，未來可能要提請憲法法庭解釋，以維護人民權益。這樣好啦，我就光講議員複數選區的罷免，十幾個議員罷掉一席，雖然不能補選，至少他是十分之一，但是如果罷掉一個原住民不得補選，他是三分之一，講到底，我要講的就是選區劃分的問題，我希望中選會也好，內政部也好，一定要去針對這個部分，將連動複數選區的罷免、選區的劃分一併檢討，避免造成未來憲政的不安定。","我舉個例子，這一次假設罷免成功，我們的修法只修只要出缺就得以補選，那好啊，未來每一屆當選的其中兩個立委就去罷掉另外一個立委，我們就每一屆上演這個戲碼就好了。所以我想這個部分作為選政機關也好、選務機關也好，不可以讓原住民的立委、原住民族人的參政權一直被大家漠視。我很高興，雖然我可能有機會被罷免，但是我很高興，至少我求仁得仁、心安理得，至少這一次很積極地來處理這一件，但是你不能做半套啊！選區劃分也要處理啊！我覺得連動到的都要修，都要把它處理好，因為個人被罷免是小事，制度是千秋，原住民的權益是千秋，中華民國的憲政體制是千秋，主委，可以嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們要積極啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我希望也到我的辦公室來跟我做說明，好不好？包括整個未來衍生的問題，可以嗎？謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢。","下一位我們請沈伯洋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":194,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-17","speakers":["牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","賴士葆","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","高金素梅","翁曉玲","丁學忠"],"page_start":113,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00003"}}},{"id":"161026","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161026","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e062fe4073b309de35f04869f6baa92091db4f448269aea9776288fdc86b9d8d4b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:25:03 - 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主委另外請教一下這個領銜人"},{"start":403.12,"end":432.007,"text":"的退團那當然很多都集中在就是罷免吳思瑤委員的張克進先生那現在當然罷團他也採取了根據選罷法相關規定他們就去再要求這個提議人再通知提議人那另外一個罷團這個事實上是也是國民黨的立委就是罷羅明財委員那他這個李賢仁呢他是對媒體表示他想要退團"},{"start":433.067,"end":460.032,"text":"但他退不了因為這個規定非常嚴格好大家都知道這個嚴格的不得了現在看起來呢除非你死掉了啊不然的話你就要很很辛苦的去要去把那個第一階段的提議人全部要要要二分之一啊那他當然他的理由是說因為他現在他本身被架空了所以很多霸團做的事情他很擔心如果有什麼違法的事情最後他都有責任好所以現在呢回過頭來就是以這兩個案例來講啊"},{"start":463.784,"end":490.586,"text":"現在比如說很多罷談都說他的連署的成績非常好比如說有高達140啦有人說160啦未來還說有200%啦那也就是說在整個的罷免最後的結果這麼多萬份但是因為一位的領銜人因為一位的領銜人他可能要否定全部三四萬份五萬份五萬名"},{"start":493.359,"end":496.528,"text":"公民選民的意願合理嗎"},{"start":497.982,"end":522.686,"text":"就像主委剛剛講說很珍惜這個制度但是我們現在因為領銜人退談難度之高所以使得他即便連署四萬份五萬份出來之後因為可能領銜人基於各種各樣的理由我們剛剛講各式各樣的理由他想要退但他不能退而且剛才講他連簽住戶籍他都不能退所以這樣的一個制度"},{"start":523.669,"end":531.7,"text":"有沒有問題也就是以一個人的意願意志可能他強壓四五萬人的意志那這樣子是民主嗎"},{"start":533.072,"end":559.377,"text":"所以主委這樣的一個規定還是說你們有其他法律解釋的空間沒有其他解釋的空間我必須要很清楚的講因為法律明文規定就是這個樣子但是未來是不是應該做一些修法我剛講就是說一個人去決定四五萬人的意志我一個人不玩了四五萬人也要被迫不玩了合理嗎"},{"start":561.191,"end":576.424,"text":"我並不反對做這樣子的討論我覺得因為在這一次很大規模我們發現這個整個的選罷法有關罷免的部分太多太多漏洞太多太多不合理的地方"},{"start":577.145,"end":601.903,"text":"其實身為中選會主委我還是希望主委跟整個中選會應該要本於行政中立像我剛剛所講的我覺得非常不合理的是過去的標準在這一次全部推翻而只是以為你認為這次是不是大規模這次人數是不是很多這完全是行政解釋的空間嘛大家共同珍惜這個民主的成長"},{"start":602.663,"end":608.608,"text":"我是說過去不要珍惜嘛而且我也講說中選會也本於之前去告發了當時的告發的時間點也一定是針對說我不要因為我告發而去影響最後整個的連署的結果嘛對不對所以我覺得這一點我在這邊喔都是非常良善的建議喔所以我們在選罷閥裡面該做修正喔"},{"start":630.527,"end":639.07,"text":"我們這次你怎麼修都沒有辦法是由於這次選罷法嘛 對不對我一樣是良善的態度 但是我覺得基於台灣民主政治的健康的發展我覺得要做全面性的修法但是如果我們把這個中選會告發的時間的早晚過度去強調的話 社會會有一個錯誤的印象以為說你比較晚來就好了 晚來剛發生的時候"},{"start":658.476,"end":674.185,"text":"這個應該也要有一致的規定這要有一致的規定而不是中選會的主委覺得我在什麼時候告發就應該什麼時候告發這是法治嗎?這不是法治不能取決於主委一個人的感受如果能夠取決於主委一個人的感受這不叫民主這也不叫法治"},{"start":681.843,"end":697.579,"text":"什麼叫合議決定就是你們委員會這樣討論突然就這樣子突然就把它改了我覺得這樣的改變事實上也會成為我們整個連署裡面一大汙點好不好大家共同珍惜民主的成果"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1077,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時25分）謝謝主席，請李進勇李主委。"],["主席：李主委，有請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委好。主委，你的選舉經驗很豐富，而現在司法單位針對連署，不管是死人連署或偽造連署，正在進行大規模偵辦，不管是在過去的選舉也好或現在的罷免也好，會不會影響選民的行為？"],["李主任委員進勇：這部分我們不便評論，因為現在罷免的階段已經進入到第二階段，可以說是不同陣營的……"],["王委員鴻薇：我的意思是說，當現在司法單位在大規模調查的時候，甚至有約詢或是羈押，會不會讓一些要去連署或者不願意去連署的人改變他的行為？"],["李主任委員進勇：我希望委員能夠理解我們選務機關的立場，在這個時間我們儘量不對……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以選務機構的立場就是以……"],["李主任委員進勇：不對非選務的事項來妄做評論。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以作為選務機關是以不干擾選舉及罷免的最後結果為最高指導原則，對吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：結果我們沒有辦法負責，過程我們要負責。"],["王委員鴻薇：是，不能去影響嘛。"],["李主任委員進勇：過程我們要負責。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，過程不能去影響，我講的對不對？您同意嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們完全按照法律的規定來執行。"],["王委員鴻薇：不是，我講的原則就是選務機關不應該去影響到選舉或罷免的最後結果，應該以這樣的原則……"],["李主任委員進勇：根本就不應該去在乎，遑論影響。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以我講的沒有錯。","這一次檢調單位說他們為什麼這麼大規模地去做調查，主要是因為告發，我想請問主委，過去我們說過，罷免有連署、公投有連署、總統和副總統選舉也有連署，而過去有沒有死亡跟偽造連署？也都有，或多或少也都有，有的也很多，譬如說當時郭台銘有5,271份包含死人連署及偽造連署，當時媒體用所謂的亡靈大軍來形容，而中選會有沒有告發？中選會也是一致地都會告發，但是這次中選會最大的不同是，過去所有的連署告發都是在連署結束之後予以告發，都是在整個的連署結束之後發現，因為最後經過查對有死亡連署、有偽造連署，全部都是在連署結束之後才予以告發，有些甚至在選舉之後再予以告發。我現在看到資料，不管是從108年開始或者是去年，去年有基隆市的市長選舉，你們的原則都是一致的，請問一下，今年為什麼不一致？也就是說這個連署還在進行中，而中選會決定在進行中、在進行式裡面就直接去告發，我不曉得這樣跟過去完全不一致的標準是有什麼樣的理由？難道你們沒有討論過這樣子會影響連署的結果嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我很簡單地講三點理由，第一點理由，根據刑事訴訟法第二百四十一條規定，「公務員因執行職務知有犯罪嫌疑者，應為告發。」這是職務上的告發……"],["王委員鴻薇：過去也是如此啊，過去也有告發啊。"],["李主任委員進勇：所以這個告發是合法的，這是第一點。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，這個不成理由，因為過去都是在連署之後做告發。"],["李主任委員進勇：接下來很重要，第二點就是今年的情形非常特殊，因為2月3號開始送件以後，民間的告發就陸續呈現了，不但是這樣，檢調機關從今年的2月到3月之間就一共來了14次要我們提供這些查對的資料，也就是說，查對發現的可能違法，範圍在擴大……"],["王委員鴻薇：過去檢調有沒有在連署過程裡面請求中選會提出查對資料？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有這麼大規模，這次是大規模，所以這是第二點，因為規模很大了，我們乾脆就這個時候把它送過去，這是第二點。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，第三點呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：第三點，我們如果是愛惜這個制度，不希望有太多的違法事情發生，在它剛發生的時候，就把它堵住……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，這個也不成為理由，你過去……"],["李主任委員進勇：就把它堵住，不堵住的話，它會一直蔓延。"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛才提出來了，過去這麼多的罷免或者公投連署都有，難道過去中選會不愛惜這個連署制度嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：所以我剛剛提出了這三點。"],["王委員鴻薇：你擠出了三點理由，唯有第二點理由，你說因為是大規模的關係，但是我剛才也跟大家說了，當時郭台銘參選總統，他的規模也很大，五千多份，不可謂之不多，但是你們是採取在整個罷免連署成立之後才做告發，所以這一次確實有非常非常奇怪、完全不一樣的標準。另外……"],["李主任委員進勇：這次的確很奇怪，的確是非常奇怪。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委，另外請教一下，領銜人的退團，當然現在很多討論都集中在罷免吳思瑤委員的張克晉先生，現在罷團也根據選罷法相關規定，他們就去要求提議人、通知提議人；另外一個罷團是罷免國民黨的立委，就是罷羅明才委員，這個領銜人是對媒體表示他想要退團，但他退不了，因為這個規定非常嚴格，大家都知道這個嚴格得不得了，現在看起來除非是死掉了，不然的話就要很辛苦地要去獲得第一階段提議人二分之一的書面同意，他的理由是說因為他本身被架空了，所以很多罷團做的事情他很擔心，如果有什麼違法的事情，最後他都有責任。","回過頭來，以這兩個案例來講，現在很多罷團都說他們的連署成績非常好，比如說有高達140%、有人說160%，未來還說有200%！也就是說，整個罷免最後的結果有這麼多萬份，但是因為一位領銜人，可能要否定全部3、4萬份或5萬名公民、選民的意願，合理嗎？就像主委剛剛所講很珍惜這個制度，但是我們現在因為領銜人退團難度之高，所以即便連署4萬份、5萬份出來之後，可能領銜人基於各種各樣的理由，我們剛剛講了各式各樣的理由，他想要退但他不能退，而且如同剛才講的，他連遷出戶籍都不能退，所以這樣的制度有沒有問題？也就是以一個人的意願、意志可能強壓4、5萬人的意志，那這樣子是民主嗎？主委，這樣的規定……還是說你們有其他法律解釋的空間？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有其他解釋的空間，我必須要很清楚地講，因為法律明文規定就是這個樣子。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是未來是不是應該做一些修法？如同我剛剛講，一個人去決定4、5萬人的意志，我一個人不玩了，4、5萬人也要被迫不玩了，合理嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我並不反對做這樣子的討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為這一次很大規模，我們發現整個選罷法關於罷免的部分有太多太多漏洞、太多太多不合理的地方，你身為中選會主委，我還是希望主委跟整個中選會應該要本於行政中立。像我剛剛所講的，我覺得非常不合理的是，過去的標準在這一次全部推翻，你認為這次是不是大規模、這次人數是不是很多？這完全是行政解釋的空間！"],["李主任委員進勇：大家共同珍惜這個民主的成果。"],["王委員鴻薇：好啊，所以過去不要珍惜嗎？而且我也講說，中選會也本於職權去告發了，當時告發的時間點也一定是針對，不要因為告發而去影響最後整個的連署結果，對不對？所以我覺得這一點……我在這邊都是非常良善的建議。"],["李主任委員進勇：我感覺得到，但我也是一樣良善。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我們的選罷法裡面該做修正，這次無論你怎麼修都沒有辦法適用於這次的罷免，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：我一樣是良善的態度。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是我覺得基於臺灣民主政治的健康發展，我覺得要做全面性的修法。"],["李主任委員進勇：但是如果我們把中選會告發時間早晚過度強調的話，社會會有一個錯誤的印象，以為慢慢來就好了，假設慢慢來的話，在剛發生的時候，這些證據跑掉了怎麼辦？"],["王委員鴻薇：這個應該也要有一致的規定，而不是中選會的主委覺得要在什麼時候告發就應該什麼時候告發，這是法制嗎？這不是法制！"],["李主任委員進勇：這是委員會決定。"],["王委員鴻薇：不能取決於主委一個人的感受，如果能夠取決於主委一個人感受，這不叫民主、這也不叫法制。"],["李主任委員進勇：而且是經過合議決定。"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼叫合議決定？"],["李主任委員進勇：就是我們委員會討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：就是你們委員會討論，突然就這樣子把它改了，我覺得這樣的改變事實上也會成為我們整個連署裡面一大污點，好不好？"],["李主任委員進勇：我想大家共同珍惜民主的成果。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢。","下一位我們請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":194,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-17","speakers":["牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","賴士葆","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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在黨的委員先進 列席的政府機關所長 官員會長 工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們中選會李主委李主委有請主委好主委辛苦了謝謝 謝謝委員主席主委 我們稍微輕鬆一下你大學的時候有沒有參加過畢業旅行"},{"start":41.194,"end":60.187,"text":"沒有過 我們大學的時候流行要畢業旅行通常我們畢業旅行的時候 請看下一頁我們通常就會先討論什麼時候要去 去哪裡很重要的 尤其我們要去離島 譬如我們要去澎湖我們就要有一個人擔任領隊 這個領隊很重要因為我們去買團體票 都是以這個領隊作為代表人"},{"start":65.58,"end":82.087,"text":"那結果呢 我們那時候班上40個人本來張三要當領隊 我們要去畢業旅行後來張三有事不能去那我們要換個人那是否民主程序多數決就即可決定結果呢 我們班上有21個人同意換理事當領隊你覺得這樣的程序符合民主原則嗎"},{"start":86.489,"end":109.794,"text":"這個各民間團體尤其他不是一個正式的組織我想只要大家有一個共識就是尤其有多數嘛多數人同意說我們換理事當領隊啦好 但是呢往下看 因為講輕鬆的例子比較好理解來如果排除可能的少數是不是民主呢比如說我們現在這個選辦法去年修法的時候呢有內政委員會在審查"},{"start":110.834,"end":117.082,"text":"內政會有這麼多 有十三位有六位是民進黨的委員那麼另外的七位是國民黨 民眾黨跟無黨籍的委員"},{"start":123.68,"end":143.386,"text":"那這個時候啊這七個多數呢他們一定多數嘛多數他怎麼表決都會過結果他們排除這六個不讓這六個到參與討論您覺得這六個不見得反對喔但是七個人的意見一樣這六個有可能不同意但是就算通通不同意也不可能推翻多數嘛但是不讓這六個來參與討論這樣算不算民主啊"},{"start":147.623,"end":163.328,"text":"民主可不可以排除可能的少數牽涉到立法院的內規運作不變評論但是您認為從一般的社會團體來講不管那個可能的少數他的意見是否跟多數一致是不是都應該讓歡迎大家一起來共同討論"},{"start":164.741,"end":184.694,"text":"畢業旅行那個例子我敢講畢業旅行的例子是不是應該這樣子就是班上四十個人嘛雖然二十一個人同意說請宗家兵擔任領隊但是另外十九個人也可以說那我們還是喜歡那個李靖可以這樣子啦那我們往下看現在來了現在呢我們根據公職人員選舉罷免法第七十六條他的提議書呢必須要有領銜人跟全體提議人一起送案嘛對不對"},{"start":193.522,"end":198.208,"text":"請問這個領先人的重要性是什麼要買團體保險要偷他來擺嗎這個領先人是什麼意思一階段那個領先人"},{"start":203.052,"end":211.016,"text":"因為都是有多數包括提議人一階段我們譬如說有4000個人請這個鍾某某當任領銜人就送到我們選委會去嘛是不是那這個領銜人的作用是什麼對選委會的立場來講的話領銜人就是這個團體的一個代表他負責跟選務機關來做對口"},{"start":227.364,"end":244.76,"text":"所以他有個備位嘛對不對有個備位萬一這個人找不到張生找不到理事有這樣的情況嘛好那一般來講我們這次的罷免提案是不是都很多找很多有名的人像李喬先生像曹新成先生事實上會請這些人來號召讓很多人認同他一起來參與你覺得這個合理嗎"},{"start":247.335,"end":267.503,"text":"就是找知名的人當領銜人合法的話我們就尊重合法嘛 就是一般會找領銜人 找知名的人好 那我們往下看了現在問題來了那麼更換領銜人要不要詢問全體呢因為我知道目前的法條第八項規定二分之以上書面同意嘛那我這樣講啦我們有四千個人因為"},{"start":270.371,"end":296.915,"text":"張三他來領銜我們第一階段由張三代表我們群體送了給選委會現在張三有事情不能去要換理事那您規定說那就是原來的四千個人你們只要有一半以上的人同意換理事就OK嘛對不對法律是這樣規定好那這是細部的操作是不是這個更換過程必須四千個人都問啊你們到底要同不同意換成理事至少要告知嘛"},{"start":297.557,"end":326.883,"text":"因為我第一階段我是四千個人中的假設我是之前的一個連署人今天就算是張三不能當要換理事有沒有可能要告知我需不需要法律上一般來講我有參與一個連署原來的領銜人是張三現在張三有事不能換理事那是不是要告訴我說現在要換理事我知道了那如果我同意我就把同意的回函回過去選委會就拿到說有過半數同意換理事是不是這樣子"},{"start":328.036,"end":346.039,"text":"法律沒有規定要四千個人都通知沒有法律沒有規定條文上沒有寫但是我說從我們民主的程序上原來這四千個人或者說畢業典禮我們四十個人要去參加畢業典禮今天換領隊不管最後我要不要參加第二階段我要不要去"},{"start":347.082,"end":355.864,"text":"至少讓我知道現在換領隊吧需不需要那是一個修養的問題那是修養的問題不是法律的問題所以選委會認為我們第76號第8項當中並沒有4000個人由張三來領銜然後交到選委會後續的第二階段我們繼續連署換了理事需要"},{"start":370.754,"end":385.909,"text":"四千個人中過半數同意如果取得這個過半數的同意要告訴這四千個人如果有過半數同意了我們就可以跟眾人說我們來更換領先人是不是這樣子這個我們管不到管不到另外的那些管不到這些其他的"},{"start":387.154,"end":410.129,"text":"我們第一個就是二分之一以上的提議人書面同意而且以一次為限所以如果說四千個人當中有兩千零一個你們拿到同意就不用管那一千九百九十九個他的不同意所以他不知道也沒有影響我們要查對了你們要查對誰"},{"start":411.19,"end":430.426,"text":"查對這兩千零一個是否同意嘛但是你們不會去問那一千九百九十九個是不是同意 不需要 不會 不會完全不需要 不會好 來我們最後的結論啦就是說我現在呢要跟我覺得呢這個就是我們今天法律的問題啦我剛剛說從民主的一個原理"},{"start":431.167,"end":442.735,"text":"基本上如果領銜人在第一階段是代表我們全體提議人法律上也允許他做更變更那麼既然第一階段我參與的連署人我知道我們是誰來當領銜今天在繼續進行二階的時候這個領銜要更換"},{"start":447.978,"end":470.292,"text":"我也同意 多數決 應該過半數同意就OK所以我們根據剛剛那個78條呢 取得過半數同意是可以但是是否應該要讓4000個人都知道我覺得這個法律上的定定啊 未並周詳啊主委 你覺得我們選辦法如果繼續的完善化讓罷免制度更完善 不要鬧人畫餅"},{"start":471.753,"end":491.651,"text":"是不是我們未來在通知第一屆聯署人的時候如果有變更領銜人的情況之下是應該要讓全體都知道我們要變更同意的拿過來我們依法辦理 是否這樣大院如果認為這樣子合適的話經過修法通過我們就具以辦理好 謝謝主委 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1027,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時16分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生，有請中選會李主委。"],["主席：李主委有請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委辛苦了！"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委，我們稍微輕鬆一下，你大學的時候有沒有參加過畢業旅行？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你沒有參加過，我們大學的時候流行要畢業旅行，我們要辦畢業旅行的時候通常會先討論什麼時候要去、去哪裡，尤其是如果我們要去離島，譬如說我們要去澎湖，我們就要有一個人擔任領隊，這個領隊很重要，因為我們去買團體票都是以這個領隊作為代表人。那時候我們班上有40個人，我們要去畢業旅行，本來是張三要當領隊，後來張三有事不能去，那我們就要換一個人，那是否民主程序以多數決即可決定？結果我們班上有21個人同意換李四當領隊，你覺得在班會討論時這樣的程序符合民主的原則嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：各民間團體並不是一個正式的組織，我想只要大家有一個共識，應該都……"],["鍾委員佳濱：尤其是有多數人同意我們換李四當領隊。好，我們往下看，我講輕鬆的例子，這樣會比較好理解。來，如果排除可能的少數是不是民主呢？比如說，我們現在這個選罷法在去年修法的時候由內政委員會在審查，內政委員會有13位委員，其中有6位是民進黨的委員，另外7位是國民黨、民眾黨跟無黨籍的委員，在這個時候7個就是多數，他們一定多數，不管怎麼表決都會過，結果他們排除這6個，不讓這6個人參與討論，這6個人不見得反對，但是他們7個人的意見一樣，這6個人有可能不同意，就算通通不同意，也不可能推翻多數嘛！但是不讓這6個人來參與討論，這樣算不算民主啊？民主可不可以排除可能的少數？"],["李主任委員進勇：這牽涉到立法院的議事運作……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不便評論？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們不便。"],["鍾委員佳濱：從一般的社會團體來講，不管那個可能的少數所持意見是否跟多數一致，您認為是不是都應該要歡迎大家一起來共同討論？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果是畢業旅行那個例子，我敢講，這個我不敢講。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那畢業旅行的例子是不是應該這樣子？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是班上有40個人，雖然有21個人同意請鍾佳濱擔任領隊，但是另外19個人也可以說我們還是喜歡李進勇，可以這樣子啦！好，那我們往下看，現在根據公職人員選舉罷免法第七十六條，提議書必須要由領銜人跟全體提議人一起送案，對不對？請問這個領銜人的重要性是什麼？要託他來買團體保險嗎？這個領銜人是什麼意思？一階是不是都有一個領銜人？"],["李主任委員進勇：因為都是有多數，包括提議人……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我的意思是說，譬如說一階段有4,000個人，請鍾某某擔任領銜人，就送到我們選委會去，那這個領銜人的重要性是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：從選委會的立場來講的話，領銜人就是這個團體的代表，他負責跟選務機關來做對口。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以要有一個備位，對不對？萬一張三找不到就找李四，有這樣的情況嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，一般來講，我們這次的罷免提案是不是都找很多有名的人，像李喬先生，像曹興誠先生，事實上會請這些人來號召，讓很多人認同他然後一起來參與，你覺得找知名的人來當領銜人合理嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果合法的話，我們就尊重。"],["鍾委員佳濱：合法嘛！就是一般會找知名的人來當領銜人。好，那我們往下看，現在問題來了，更換領銜人要不要詢問全體呢？我知道目前在法條的第八項規定二分之一以上書面同意，那我這樣講，我們有4,000個人，由張三來領銜，我們第一階段由張三代表我們去送給選委會，現在張三有事情不能去所以要換成李四，依規定在原來的4,000個人裡面只要有一半以上同意換成李四，就OK嘛！對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：法律是這樣規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是這樣規定，但是在細部的操作上，這個更換過程必須要問這4,000個人同不同意換成李四，至少要告知嘛！在第一階段假設我是這4,000個人中的一個連署人，今天就算是張三不能當所以要換成李四，有沒有可能要告知我？法律上需不需要？一般來講，我有參與一個連署，原來的領銜人是張三，現在張三有事不能當所以要換成李四，那是不是要告訴我現在要換成李四，我知道以後如果我同意，我就把同意的回函回過去，選委會拿到以後才知道有過半數的人同意換成李四，是不是這樣子？"],["李主任委員進勇：法律沒有規定要4,000個人都通知。"],["鍾委員佳濱：法律沒有規定，在條文上沒有寫，但是我說從我們民主的程序上，原來這4,000個人，或者是說畢業旅行，我們40個人要去參加畢業旅行，今天換了領隊，不管最後我要不要參加第二階段、我要不要去，至少要讓我知道現在要換領隊吧？需不需要？"],["李主任委員進勇：那是一個修養的問題，不是法律的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是修養的問題，不是法律的問題？"],["李主任委員進勇：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以選委會認為在第七十六條第八項當中並沒有這樣規定，這4,000個人由張三來領銜，然後交到選委會，在後續的第二階段我們繼續連署，要換成李四，需要這4,000個人中過半數同意，如何取得過半數的同意？要告訴這4,000個人，如果有過半數同意了，就可以跟中選會說我們要更換領銜人，是不是這樣子？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個我們管不到，管不到另外的那些……"],["鍾委員佳濱：管不到這些其他的……"],["李主任委員進勇：是，第一個就是二分之一以上的提議人書面同意，而且以一次為限。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以如果說4,000個人當中有2,001個同意，就不用管那1,999個的不同意，甚至他不知道也沒有影響？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們要查對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們要查對誰？"],["李主任委員進勇：查對這2,001個是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：查對這2,001個是否同意嘛，但是你們不會去問那1,999個是不是同意，不需要？"],["李主任委員進勇：不會、不會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：完全不需要？"],["李主任委員進勇：不會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。我們最後的結論，我覺得這就是今天我們的法律問題，我剛剛說從民主的原理，基本上如果領銜人在第一階段是代表全體提議人，法律上也允許變更，所以既然第一階段參與的連署人知道是誰來當領銜，在繼續進行二階的時候，這個領銜人要更換，我也同意多數決，也就是過半數同意就OK，所以我們根據第七十八條，取得過半數同意就可以，但是否應該要讓4,000個人都知道，我覺得這個部分在法律上的訂定未必周詳。主委，你覺得選罷法如果繼續完善化，讓罷免制度更完善，不要落人話柄，是不是未來如果有變更領銜人的情況，要通知第一階段連署人的時候，應該要讓全體都知道要變更，同意的拿過來，再依法辦理？是否這樣？"],["李主任委員進勇：大院如果認為這樣子合適的話，經過修法通過，我們就基於法規辦理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員的質詢。","下一位我們請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":194,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-17","speakers":["牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","賴士葆","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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各位委員有請這個主委李主委有請委員好主委辛苦了我們看這個今天中選會的報告裡面特別提到公職人員罷免案電子連署系統整備情形"},{"start":34.858,"end":62.867,"text":"特別提到這個公職人員罷免案電子連署系統107年6月15號建制完成這裡面也特別提到本會將視全國性公民投票電子連署系統實際使用情形評估公職人員選罷法罷免案電子連署系統上限事宜所以這個部分預估什麼時候會開始"},{"start":65.652,"end":91.208,"text":"我們從去年下半年以來就積極的進行這個系統的維護測試希望他一上線之後是零缺點的因為罷免的事情也相當的敏感出不得任何的差錯所以到目前為止我們各項測試的工作進行的都相當的順利"},{"start":92.709,"end":115.755,"text":"不過這個時候剛好就是一個罷免潮所有的規則都是按照既定的程序在走這個時候我們就沒有去考慮說是不是要把它上限我想等到這一波過了之後我們會審慎的來律定這上限的時間好 這個因為這個選罷法也有修正"},{"start":122.341,"end":147.889,"text":"是这段时间选办法也有修正有没有因为选办法的修正这个系统要做因应调整的是有没有啊都有跟着都有跟着好这个那我请教一下哈公职人选举办法第76条这次有修正吗近期有修正吗啊就是针对这个第三项哈"},{"start":148.988,"end":173.685,"text":"第一項體育人名冊應依規定格式竹籃填詳時填寫填寄體育人國民身份證統一編號及附及地然後呢這裡面提到體育人填寄時應附本人之國民身份證正版面影本這樣的一個修正條文跟這個系統電子系統"},{"start":175.911,"end":201.185,"text":"有沒有需要怎麼樣去做沒有沒有影響因為我們的連署系統是必須要用自然人憑證那自然人憑證他就可以取代身份證那所以他不用檢附國民身份證影印本用電子連署的是不用電子連署這個在哪裡有規定電子連署就不用"},{"start":202.601,"end":231.639,"text":"條文法例沒有規定喔因為電子聯署他本身就是用國民就是用這個自然人身份證因為這個新的修正請中選會在跟內政部這個法是內政部的嘛對不對在跟內政部協調因為寫得很明確喔應付本人之國民身份證正反面"},{"start":232.954,"end":259.665,"text":"銀本條文是寫寫的這麼明確所以不能再跟內政部好不好我們再做確認對再跟內政部因為這法是內政部的執行是你們的好不好然後我們看這個公職人選舉罷免法第79條有規定這個選委會說到罷免案提議後應於25日內查對提議的名冊"},{"start":260.822,"end":288.963,"text":"有下列情事之一者應以刪除第一款就是不符合76條剛才有講過76條好我們看這個還有第二款提議人有第77條第一項身份當然全部有列了六款請問一下這個以現行現行這個選委會地方選委會"},{"start":290.595,"end":304.081,"text":"怎么样去去针对这个条文来去做来去查核怎么样去核对用什么方式是用书面的去通知还是怎么样"},{"start":306.109,"end":322.402,"text":"我們這個查對是由兩個機關分別就不同的項目來進行查對一個就是當地的這個戶政機關另外一個就是我們的選委會"},{"start":323.979,"end":334.492,"text":"那戶政機關跟選委會他們查對的根據都是這個連署人名冊正本在選舉機關副本我們會給一份給這個戶政事務所"},{"start":339.418,"end":367.408,"text":"那戶政事務所就是用戶政的系統他們去做查對他查對結果之後不管是發現比如說死亡連署有這種情形的話他都會把這個結果完整的來送還給我們的選務單位選務單位彙整之後才會送到中央選舉委員會來進行最後的審查以現在的相關的這些"},{"start":368.444,"end":388.718,"text":"公職人員選舉罷免法的規定 副政機關有辦法完全的查對嗎副政機關沒有問題 這都是用電腦去查的好 這個以前可以啊 現在恐怕好 我們看這個公職人員選舉罷免法第77條規定"},{"start":391.478,"end":418.592,"text":"現役軍人服替待役之現役役男或公務人員不得為罷免案提議人而這個公務人員的定義是採最廣的是公務人員服務法以前的戶籍資料是有這個職業欄現在的戶籍資料已經很久很久已經刪除了職業欄"},{"start":420.054,"end":424.464,"text":"所以從戶籍資料裡面是無法查對無法查對"},{"start":430.705,"end":456.903,"text":"連那個公務員都沒有了現在都沒有了現在我們並不是叫戶政事務所根據戶籍資料去查因為戶籍資料現在的內容它是有一些變更所以有關於現役軍人的部分是向國防部去查有嗎有有關於替代役的部分向內政部去查公務人員的部分向人總去查所以向各機關有嗎有有好人總夠不夠"},{"start":460.494,"end":483.699,"text":"人總夠不夠人總不是人總指向人總夠不夠還有前續部前續部夠不夠人總跟前續部大概大概夠了吧不夠不夠公務員服務法是很廣的包括公營事業的嗯包括公營事業的非純公"},{"start":484.218,"end":491.181,"text":"非純勞工的所以這個部分這個人種也有這個資料人種也有這個資料沒有沒有他沒有沒有這個資料我們再確認一下確認一下好謝謝鄭天才委員的諮詢下一位我們請鍾嘉斌委員諮詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":981,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時8分）主席，各位委員。有請主委。"],["主席：李主委有請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主委辛苦了。我們看到今天中選會的報告裡面特別提到公職人員罷免案電子連署系統整備情形，特別提到公職人員罷免案電子連署系統107年6月15號建置完成，這裡面也特別提到：本會將視全國性公民投票電子連署系統實際使用情形，評估公職人員選罷法罷免案電子連署系統上線事宜。所以這個部分預估什麼時候會開始呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們從去年下半年以來，就積極的進行這個系統的維護、測試，希望它一上線之後是零缺點的，因為罷免的事情也相當的敏感，出不得任何的差錯，所以到目前為止，我們各項測試的工作都進行得相當順利，不過這個時候剛好就是一個罷免潮，所有的規則都是按照既定的程序在走，這個時候我們就沒有考慮是不是要把它上線，我想等到這一波過了之後，我們會審慎律定上線的時間。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，因為這段時間選罷法也有修正，有沒有因為選罷法的修正，這個系統要做因應調整的，有沒有？"],["李主任委員進勇：都有跟著。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。我請教一下。公職人選舉罷免法第七十六條這次有修正嗎？近期有修正嗎？就是針對第三項：第一項提議人名冊，應依規定格式逐欄詳實填寫，填具提議人國民身分證統一編號及戶籍地址分村（里）裝訂成冊；提議人填具時，應附本人之國民身分證正反面影本。這樣一個修正條文，而這個電子系統有沒有需要跟著去做調整？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有影響，因為我們的連署系統是必須要用自然人憑證，那自然人憑證就可以取代身分證。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：那所以他不用檢附國民身分證影印本？"],["李主任委員進勇：用電子連署的是不用。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：在哪裡有規定電子連署就不用？法律條文沒有規定喔！"],["李主任委員進勇：因為電子連署本身就是用自然人憑證。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為這個是新的修正，請中選會再跟內政部協調，這個法是內政部主責的，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為寫得很明確「應附本人之國民身分證正反面影本」條文寫得這麼明確，所以這部分再跟內政部協調，好不好？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們會再做確認。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，再跟內政部協調，因為這法是內政部主責的，執行是你們，好不好？"],["李主任委員進勇：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：然後，公職人選舉罷免法第七十九條規定「選委會收到罷免案提議後，應於二十五日內，查對提議人名冊，有下列情事之一者，應予刪除」；然後第一款規定「提議人不合第七十六條第一項規定」；此外，還有第二款「提議人有第七十七條第一項之身分。」當然這一條全部共列了六款。請問一下，地方選委會怎麼樣根據現行法的這個條文去查核，要怎麼樣去核對？用什麼方式？是用書面去通知還是怎麼樣？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們是由兩個機關分別就不同的項目來進行查對，一個就是當地的戶政機關，另外一個就是我們的選委會，那戶政機關跟選委會他們查對的根據都是連署人名冊，正本在選舉機關，我們會給戶政事務所一份副本，那戶政事務所就是用戶政的系統去做查對，它查對之後如果發現有死亡連署這種情形的話，都會把這個結果完整的送給我們的選務單位，選務單位在彙整之後才會送到中央選舉委員會來進行最後的審查。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：以現在這些公職人員選舉罷免法的相關規定，戶政機關有辦法完全的查對嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：戶政機關沒有問題，這都是用電腦去查的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，以前可以，現在恐怕……好，公職人員選舉罷免法第七十七條規定：「現役軍人、服替代役之現役役男或公務人員，不得為罷免案提議人。」而這個公務人員的定義是採最廣的，就是公務員服務法所規定的公務員。以前的戶籍資料是有職業欄，現在的戶籍資料已經刪除職業欄了，所以從戶籍資料裡面無法查對，連公務人員現在都沒有了！"],["李主任委員進勇：對，我們並不是叫戶政事務所根據戶籍資料去查，因為戶籍資料現在的內容有一些變更，所以有關於現役軍人的部分是向國防部去查。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：有嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：有，有關於替代役的部分是向內政部去查，公務人員的部分是向人總去查，所以是分別向各機關查。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：有嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：有。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，人總夠不夠？"],["李主任委員進勇：人手？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不是，只向人總查夠不夠？"],["李主任委員進勇：還有銓敘部。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：向銓敘部查夠不夠？"],["李主任委員進勇：向人總跟銓敘部查就大概夠了吧。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不夠。"],["李主任委員進勇：不夠嗎？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：公務員服務法所規定的公務員範圍是很廣的，包括公營事業非純勞工的人員，所以這個部分請中選會……"],["李主任委員進勇：人總也有這個資料。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：沒有，人總沒有這個資料。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們再確認一下。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，確認一下。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢。","下一位我們請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":194,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-17","speakers":["牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","賴士葆","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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按照現有法律的規定覺得有疑慮的因為查對人員有他一定的專業如果他根據他的專業去判斷有偽造的嫌疑的時候那他就可以發查詢單好 那再來剩下一點時間本席想請教有關這個惡意的謠言"},{"start":371.055,"end":391.208,"text":"在罷免期間呢很多這種謠言或是抹紅栽贓塗黑的行為他都躲在言論自由的背後躲在言論自由的大傘之下這種情況您的看法怎麼樣那一部分我們是管不到"},{"start":392.108,"end":419.486,"text":"我們照顧的是有很多有關於選務的錯假訊息謠言在攻擊選務機關的公正那這部分呢我們都會立即來做澄清來做說明好那如果這樣的話本席請教你一下你看一下這個有關預算法第83條有準備嗎您看一下您看一下您看一下這樣的修法我們"},{"start":422.54,"end":428.601,"text":"立法我們行政院還可以提預算特別預算嗎應該還是可以吧還是有特別預算吧這個好像跟這個跟我們的不是啦我是以你法學專業法學專業那你看了一下這個法條你來判斷一下人家跟你說這個修法修下去可能我們都不可能有特別預算了你認同嗎"},{"start":452.527,"end":474.128,"text":"在行政院的团队里面各有所失我跟行政院没关我现在是纯粹看这个法条您本身法学背景法学素养的吗我在这个时候你避重就轻你不想查你对很多的谣言你这样是变相的对选务的部分我来负责做说明基本的判断嘛"},{"start":475.188,"end":498.283,"text":"所以現在我們的中選會對於整個社會上用言論自由然後但是進行栽贓抹黑抹紅謠言你們完全沒束手無策我這個時候就不能夠去介入不能夠去干預不能夠去在乎我這個時候就是要完全維持選務的中立選罷法104條是什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":504.79,"end":523.567,"text":"不知道 那要加強一下 選辦法是什麼 惡意謠言的部分它雖然有規範 你有沒有覺得非常的模糊"},{"start":529.266,"end":538.599,"text":"選辦法104條您的看法怎麼樣就是按照法律來規定的執行有違反法律的規定的那就必須要受到處罰"},{"start":540.175,"end":567.501,"text":"所以有散布谣言或传播不实之事这种就可以处五年以下有期徒刑那你们会执行吗有发现有这些谣言有人跟你们告发之后跟你们提出你们会告发你们会判定之后告发吗我们执行职务发现有这些状况的话那我们是必须要告发那受害者可以跟你们反映吗"},{"start":568.991,"end":575.455,"text":"不必繞個圈子,直接跟檢察官反應都快所以中選會現在等於對於整個選務你也沒有辦法這個讓整個選罷法的執行能夠比較落實啊"},{"start":589.066,"end":602.998,"text":"這個是屬於司法處理的範圍之內當然我們作為執行公務的機關發現有犯罪嫌疑我們是可以告發的最後因為時間的關係你身為中選會的主委你有沒有發現台灣現在非常亂"},{"start":608.743,"end":610.324,"text":"謠言滿天飛你有沒有這種感覺我盡量就是能夠避開這些紛紛擾擾我要求我們的選委人員所以你是中選會的主委你完全不管現在整個你要承辦的業務他在這個過程中的情況"},{"start":627.654,"end":628.935,"text":"我聚焦在維護我們選務的完整選務的中立而不受任何外力的干擾"},{"start":641.345,"end":656.867,"text":"包括謠言的最後那您對於所有所有的這個查對第二階段第一階段第二階段查核查對罷免案的查核查對您你們都會"},{"start":658.248,"end":680.888,"text":"這個承諾一定都會嚴格不是嚴格就是核實如實查核按照法律規定你們一定如實查核沒有任何一點這個輕忽或者是草率隨便的查我們全國的選務工作夥伴包括資源的人員都會盡心盡力按照法律的規定來執行職務"},{"start":683.288,"end":700.66,"text":"好很好全民也都希望而且罷免罷免從這段時間開始全國有這種罷免的聲音本席相信之後各級民意代表可能大家對罷免已經慢慢熟悉了就像以前選舉大家不熟悉後來熟悉了對選舉"},{"start":702.541,"end":720.553,"text":"未來可能罷免的這個部分在各級民意代表都有可能發生所以我們主要就是對於罷團我們也要保障他們的這個權益還有被罷免人我們都希望所以我們希望中選會能夠真的把這個整個選務可以做好好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":905,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時56分）謝謝主席，本席有請李主委。"],["主席：李主委有請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委好。今天是中選會業務報告，本席時間不多，我想就現在全國正在進行的罷免進行詢問，但不是就這次的案例，我想主委你一定了解，選舉、罷免、創制、複決是人民的權利，罷免的對象從立法委員到縣市長、鄉鎮市長、各級民意代表、縣市議員、鄉鎮市民代表，甚至里長，都是在罷免的範圍內，但是因為罷免在臺灣的案例不多，所以可能也有很多大家不了解，甚至法令也不一定完善的部分，所以本席今天特別提出一些部分，因為時間不夠，特別提出幾個部分跟主委來討論。","首先第一個，我想主委您應該是認同，你等一下可以回答看是不是認同，您身為中選會主委，整個中選會在處理業務的公平性跟正確性是不是很重要？"],["李主任委員進勇：這一直是我們的核心價值。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對嘛！尤其這個影響到選舉、罷免、創制、複決，所以公平性非常重要，如果談到罷免的話，罷免案的形成是要經過兩階段的連署，但是連署很容易有偽造的情事，我想主委也認同。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：偽造有各式各樣的，譬如抄名單或代簽名，這個有沒有罪？"],["李主任委員進勇：抄名單、代簽名？"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，他的連署書來源是抄名單、代簽名，有沒有罪？"],["李主任委員進勇：我想這根據一般的常識，既然是偽造的，應該會牽涉到刑事責任。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以主委也知道，但很多罷免團體可能不知道，它隨便的抄，中選會對此有沒有什麼防範的措施？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們要求每一份連署書都是當事人他自己簽名或蓋章。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們怎麼要求？"],["李主任委員進勇：所以法律上就有所謂的查對制度，我們在第一階段也要進行查對，第二階段的連署也要進行查對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：今天你們查對後只是剔除，最後他也沒有刑責，被你查到的話，他會有刑責嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：查到的會有刑責。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你查對後剔除，可能有些是偽造的被你剔除。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們會把這些案件移送給檢察機關去繼續偵辦。"],["徐委員欣瑩：剔除的你都會送檢調？"],["李主任委員進勇：不是，是有偽造情形的，一般所謂的死前連署，包括盜刻印章、偽造簽名，這個都是可能的狀況。"],["徐委員欣瑩：還有抄名單，這就是用抄襲的嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：抄名單要看狀況，如果只是抄上面這部分，沒有幫他簽名的話，這是另外一個問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：抄名單，但是最重要的就是簽名還有幫他蓋章，就是自己去刻章或者是幫他代簽，這個是有問題的？"],["李主任委員進勇：是有問題的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有刑責的？"],["李主任委員進勇：有刑責。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。另外，在罷免案形成的時候有欺騙、詐騙的情況，像大家最近聽到的，他利用民眾的同情心，剴剴案很多家長都覺得非常的痛心，他說這個剴剴案要怎麼樣，你要來連署，結果底下是罷免的連署，這種有沒有問題？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個我們無從查對起，所以如果有這種情形，它是否牽涉到犯罪，相關的當事人可以尋求司法的途徑解決。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是當事人並不知道，所以本席要跟你講的是，在整個罷免案形成的時候有很多的偽造，甚至欺騙、詐騙的情況，所以我們要提到，你在查核、查對的時候一定要非常的落實，因為有些人簽完，他覺得他今天是因為剴剴案所以簽了，但他不知道他簽了罷免，像這種可能也很多，如果都用同樣的手法，可能今天簽10張，有10個人就被騙了。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們沒有辦法去審核他簽署連署書的動機，我們只能夠就真假來進行查對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以在徵詢、函詢的部分是不是應該落實，而且可以擴大？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們還是按照法律的規定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：應該說按照現有法律的規定。"],["李主任委員進勇：對，按照現有法律的規定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：覺得有疑慮的才函詢。"],["李主任委員進勇：查對人員有他一定的專業，如果他根據他的專業去判斷有偽造的嫌疑的時候，那他就可以發查詢單。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，剩下一點時間，本席想請教有關惡意的謠言，在罷免期間很多謠言或是抹紅、栽贓、塗黑的行為，它都躲在言論自由的背後、躲在言論自由的大傘之下，對這種情況，您的看法怎麼樣？"],["李主任委員進勇：那一部分我們管不到，我們在乎的是有很多有關於選務的錯假訊息、謠言，在攻擊選務機關的公正，這部分我們都會立即澄清、說明。"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果這樣的話本席請教你一下，你看一下有關預算法第八十三條的修法，您看一下這樣的修法，行政院還可以提特別預算嗎？應該還是可以吧？還是有特別預算吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個好像跟我們的業務無關。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是啦！我是說，以你的法學專業來看一下這個法條，你來判斷一下，人家跟你說這個修法修下去，都不可能有特別預算了，你認同嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：在行政院的團隊裡面各有所司，所以中選會……"],["徐委員欣瑩：跟行政院沒關係，我現在是純粹看這個法條，就您本身的法學背景、法學素養來看，可是你避重就輕，不想回答？"],["李主任委員進勇：我在這個時候只能夠就……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你這樣是變相的對很多的謠言來做附和。"],["李主任委員進勇：只能就選務的部分，我來負責做說明。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你要有基本的判斷，所以現在我們的中選會對於整個社會上用言論自由來進行栽贓、抹黑、抹紅、造謠的，你們完全都束手無策？"],["李主任委員進勇：我這個時候就不能夠去介入、不能夠去干預、不能夠去在乎，我這個時候就是要完全的選務中立。"],["徐委員欣瑩：您知道選罷法第一百零四條的規定是什麼嗎？不知道？那要加強一下選罷法了，那是惡意謠言的部分，雖然有規範，但你有沒有覺得非常的模糊？對於選罷法第一百零四條，您的看法怎麼樣？"],["李主任委員進勇：就是按照法律的規定來執行，若有違反法律規定的，就必須要受到處罰。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！所以有散布謠言或傳播不實之事，這種就可以處五年以下有期徒刑，那你們會執行嗎？發現有散布謠言之事，有人跟你們……"],["李主任委員進勇：告發。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有人跟你們提出，你們經判定之後會告發嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們執行職務時若發現有這些狀況的話，我們是必須要告發。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那受害者可以跟你們反映嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：不必繞個圈子，直接跟檢察官反映，多快！"],["徐委員欣瑩：直接跟檢察官反映？"],["李主任委員進勇：對啊！直接跟檢察官檢舉。"],["徐委員欣瑩：等於中選會現在對於整個選務，即你也沒有辦法讓整個選罷法的執行能夠比較落實啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：不是，這個是屬於司法處理的範圍之內，當然我們作為執行公務的機關，發現有犯罪嫌疑，我們是可以告發的，但是受害人……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK。最後，因為時間的關係，你身為中選會主委，你有沒有發現臺灣現在非常亂，謠言滿天飛，你有沒有這種感覺？"],["李主任委員進勇：我儘量就是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你有沒有這種感覺？"],["李主任委員進勇：我就是儘量避開這些紛紛擾擾，我要求我們的選務人員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你是中選會的主委，你完全不管現在你要承辦的整個業務，在這個過程中的一些情況，你是完全的避開！"],["李主任委員進勇：我聚焦在……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以就給他們亂？"],["李主任委員進勇：我聚焦在維護我們選務的完整、選務的中立，而且不受任何外力的干擾，包括謠言等等。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後，您對於所有的查對，罷免案第一階段、第二階段的查核、查對，你們都會承諾，一定都會核實、如實查核，按照法律規定，你們一定如實查核，沒有任何一點輕忽或是草率、隨便的查？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們全國的選務工作夥伴，包括支援的人員，都會盡心盡力按照法律的規定來執行職務。"],["徐委員欣瑩：很好，全民也都希望如此，而且從這段時間開始，全國有了這種罷免的聲音，本席相信之後各級的民意代表，大家對罷免可能也已經慢慢熟悉了，就像以前選舉大家不熟悉，但後來熟悉了，所以未來罷免這個部分在各級民意代表都有可能發生。因此，主要就是對於罷團，我們要保障他們的權益；還有被罷免人，我們也都希望如此，我們希望中選會能夠真的把整個選務可以做好。謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員質詢。","報告委員會，我們中午不休息，繼續質詢。","下一位請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":194,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-17","speakers":["牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","賴士葆","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","高金素梅","翁曉玲","丁學忠"],"page_start":113,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00003"}}},{"id":"161022","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161022","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e067fe3a2e25198047204869f6baa92091db4f448269aea9776f0fba3fac4fb75495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"11:36:42 - 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我們現在資訊都很透明是不是在網路上 他個人也不涉及到各自的問題他個人要上網去查 輸入他自己的自然冷憑證有的去查到他確實有沒有去連署或是有人冒用他的名字去連署這是不是未來我們要徹底的改革"},{"start":83.849,"end":108.829,"text":"這個我們考慮到的第一個就是個人資料的一個保護恐怕需要再深入的討論那關於這個電子的部分我們現在就罷免的部分是罷免連署的電子罷免案的電子連署大概這個系統我們已經建立的差不多了"},{"start":109.83,"end":122.978,"text":"如果認為說要開放個人的查詢的話可不可能在現有系統的情況之下架構之下來增加它的功能這個都要做進一步的討論"},{"start":124.567,"end":141.275,"text":"我希望主委我們還是要擔當這個我們中選委一定要對民眾有一個交代民眾比較透明去了解說到底他有沒有去冒用有沒有被冒用或是臨時有沒有不實"},{"start":142.496,"end":166.997,"text":"讓他們更為透明化這是本市的建議讓我們可以檢焦民眾的疑慮再來呢因為我早上我看我們中選會的經費我們的一倍金剩100萬那你未來這二接的罷免二接要即將邁入三接的"},{"start":168.531,"end":180.599,"text":"的選舉,那你這個金會過嗎?這當然不過,當然不過我看到行政院的一倍金也剩差不多一千多萬那未來你要怎樣去辦這個選舉呢?"},{"start":182.545,"end":201.97,"text":"這個一定要申請行政院准於動之第二預備金因為這個金額也相當龐大對啊對啊所以你那個經費你也是要先去處理啊是我們行政院也很關心我們經常保持聯繫對對好那再來就是問我新北市啦我新北市的選區"},{"start":203.77,"end":220.593,"text":"現在我我我手上我看很多媒體都在報導說新莊新莊有7個議員他平均是一個議員是60457人那土室三英平均有"},{"start":221.654,"end":245.608,"text":"有十個議員平均是六萬兩千四百八十人那一個議員還多了兩千人那媒體都在報導啊說我們山陰地區啊我們議員會少一席啊領口會增加一席啊那我看那個人口的結果裡面下去算的比例我們這邊還多了兩千多人啊那是不是請主委"},{"start":246.052,"end":272.741,"text":"我們新北市誰負責的找他們來回覆好不好 請祖密來說明一下跟委員報告那有關那個下一屆這個直轄市議員的名額分配如果我們是在以往例是在11月投票的話我們是以明年的這個5月底的人口數那由內政部會把這個應選名額來"},{"start":275.404,"end":304.764,"text":"含資給中選會來做辦理那所以要以明年五月的這個人口數來作為基礎計算明年五月才能確定那我請問一下你說人口數他也是照這個人口數的比例比如說新莊現在一個議員平均六萬人那土石山陰現在平均數是六萬兩千多人那應該缺少應該是新莊那邊不可能是"},{"start":307.965,"end":316.53,"text":"未來內政部核算這個名額給我們的時候他就會去考慮這個名額分配還有人口計算的一個基礎"},{"start":318.455,"end":333.143,"text":"還是以人口吧對好這是本期因為我最近我看了很多媒體都在報導土司山林會少一席新莊新莊那邊不動那林口那邊會增加一席所以我趁這個我們中選會的時候來問大家"},{"start":337.085,"end":364.497,"text":"好,那謝謝主秘好,主委最近辛苦了,真的多謝關心好,主委真的我們中選會真的他們都是非常辛苦那人手又少,那經費又少其實這都是要改革的不然這樣再來,再辦的活動,再辦的選舉都是要花錢啦一個罷免案我看起碼都要花一千萬以上嘛"},{"start":365.157,"end":371.346,"text":"那你全國那麼多你起碼花了算好幾億這都是經貨的問題啊所以我們更加審慎辦理各項選務好謝謝主委主委謝謝委員好謝謝吳其明委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":851,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（11時36分）主席、與會同仁。請中選會主委。"],["主席：李主委，有請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好！"],["吳委員琪銘：主委，主委辛苦了！今天早上很多都是談罷免，還有幽靈連署，還有死亡連署……"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為這都造成非常大的衝擊，全國民眾都在看，尤其我本身也是，所以這種問題都要徹底解決。因為造假連署對社會大眾都不好，所以本席在這裡也要建議中選會，是不是可以研究一套，今天我們所有市民如果要知道自己有沒有連署，還是被造假，因為現在資訊都很透明，所以是不是可以在網路上查，是他個人要上網去查，也不涉及到個資的問題，用自己的自然人憑證，可以查到自己有沒有去連署或是有人冒用他的名字去連署，這是不是未來我們要徹底解決？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員的指教，這個我們考慮到的第一個就是個人資料的保護，恐怕需要再深入的討論。關於電子的部分，罷免案的電子連署系統，現在我們已經建立得差不多了，如果認為要開放個人查詢的話，可不可能在現有系統的架構之下來增加功能，這個都要做進一步的討論。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，主委，我希望中選會一定要對民眾有一個交代，讓民眾比較能去了解到底自己有沒有被冒用或是連署有沒有不實，讓這個更為透明化，這是本席的建議。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們來研究看看。"],["吳委員琪銘：好嗎？讓我們可以減少民眾的疑慮。","再來，早上我看中選會的經費，預備金剩100萬，未來罷免二階的連署即將邁入三階的選舉，這個經費夠嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：這當然不夠、當然不夠。"],["吳委員琪銘：當然不夠，我看行政院的預備金也剩差不多一千多萬，未來你要怎樣辦這個選舉呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個一定要向行政院申請准予動支第二預備金，因為這個金額也相當龐大。"],["吳委員琪銘：對啊！對啊！所以那個經費你也要先去處理。"],["李主任委員進勇：是，行政院也很關心，我們經常保持聯繫。"],["吳委員琪銘：好。","再來，就是問我新北市選區的事，我手上的資料，新莊有7個議員，平均1個議員是服務6萬,457人，土樹三鶯有10個議員，平均1個議員是服務6萬2,480人，所以平均1個議員還多服務2,000人，現在我看很多媒體都在報導，三鶯地區的議員會少1席，林口會增加1席，但我看人口結構裡面下去算的比例，我們這邊還多服務兩千多人。主委，新北市是誰負責的，是不是請他們來回復，好不好？"],["李主任委員進勇：好，請我們主秘來說明一下。"],["謝主任秘書美玲：跟委員報告，有關下一屆直轄市議員的名額分配，如果依往例是在11月投票的話，我們是以明年5月底的人口數，內政部會把應選名額函知給中選會來做辦理，所以要以明年5月的人口數來作為基礎計算。"],["吳委員琪銘：明年5月才能確定。"],["謝主任秘書美玲：是、是、是。"],["吳委員琪銘：我請問一下，你說人口數，他也是照人口數的比例，比如新莊現在1個議員平均服務6萬人，土樹三鶯現在1個議員平均服務六萬兩千多人，所以少的應該是新莊，不可能是土樹三鶯，是不是這樣？"],["謝主任秘書美玲：未來內政部在核算這個名額給我們的時候，就會去考慮這個名額分配，還有人口計算的基礎。"],["吳委員琪銘：還是以人口，對不對？"],["謝主任秘書美玲：對。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，因為最近我看很多媒體都在報導，土樹三鶯會少1席，新莊不動，林口會增加1席，所以我趁中選會來的時候來問，謝謝主秘。"],["謝主任秘書美玲：謝謝。"],["吳委員琪銘：主委，最近真的也辛苦了！"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝關心，謝謝關心。"],["吳委員琪銘：主委，中選會真的都是非常辛苦，人手又少、經費又少，其實這都是要解決的，不然，再來要辦的活動、選舉都要花錢，一個罷免案，我看起碼都要花1,000萬以上，全國那麼多，起碼花好幾億，這都是經費的問題。"],["李主任委員進勇：是，所以我們會更加審慎辦理各項選務。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳琪銘委員的質詢。","現在我們處理臨時提案，臨時提案共計3案，請宣讀。","一、","近期新聞媒體與社群上偶有地方選舉委員會對罷免連署書以尺寸工具或其他器材加以丈量之說詞，惟中央選舉委員會（下稱中選會）否認有發生相關情事，惟仍應積極掌握各地方選舉委員會執行情形，確保各地方選委會合法查對且審核標準一致，不得以無從救濟之方式剔除連署書。另，就後續查對作業程序也應掌握各地方政府選舉委員會之處理作業情形，避免個人資料外洩，或再發生非法訪問調查連署人之情事。","提案人：蘇巧慧　　黃　捷　　張宏陸　　李柏毅　　王美惠　　吳琪銘","二、","就114年公職人員罷免案提議階段之詳細查對結果，雖中央選舉委員會（以下簡稱中選會）之罷免案查對結果會定期公告於中選會之委員會議紀錄，但民眾實際上仍需仰賴新聞媒體作為收取公職人員罷免案資訊之主要來源，因媒體之報導較為詳盡，時效上也較為快速。","然有鑑於個別媒體之報導速度與資訊詳實度不一，顯難保障人民參政權與知情權之公平性，資訊亦可能因不同媒體之報導內容有落差而陷入混亂，不僅不利公眾討論，亦不利人民參政權的行使，且有損中選會公正主持選務之形象。爰要求中選會研議並於114年5月委員會議討論，就罷免案之詳細查對結果統計資訊，於各階段實質審查完竣後，統一公開上網，以落實人民知情權及參政權之內涵，保障我國選務公平、公正、公開之形象，並向本院內政委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：蘇巧慧　　張宏陸　　王美惠　　黃　捷　　李柏毅　　吳琪銘","三、","現行罷免連署的查對作業，缺乏客觀的認定標準、查對標準程序及相關人（包括罷免領銜人、被罷免人）的參與查對機制。","查對作業的公開透明，是確保罷免成案的正確性、可信任性的基礎。","爰提案請中央選舉委員會盡速提案修正相關法律、法規，並在修法前，在合法範圍內落實執行查對作業的公開透明。","提案人：徐欣瑩　　張智倫　　許宇甄"],["主席：第一案跟第二案的部分，第一案經過跟中選會的溝通，已經達成共識，第二案也達成共識，做文字的修正。所以第一案跟第二案照文字修正的部分通過，可以嗎？好，謝謝。","第三案的部分我們再進行文字上的一些修正。","經過溝通之後，臨時提案照文字修正通過（參閱附錄），請問委員會有無意見？"],["王委員美惠：沒有。"],["主席：好，謝謝，臨時提案處理完畢，我們繼續進行質詢。","下一位請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":194,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-17","speakers":["牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","賴士葆","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席我想先請警政署還有抒發部 謝謝"},{"start":24.073,"end":46.608,"text":"好 謝謝兩位 午安我們就直接來談我們覺得可能一般人會很有感的詐欺案例其實在今年 去年 從去年到今年其實棒球一直在台灣是一個非常重要的話題那一旦它成為話題 成為輿情 成為流量它就會成為詐欺商品的周邊商品的可能性 對不對我想這個你們一定都可以理解沒有錯"},{"start":47.028,"end":53.916,"text":"那所以我們可以看到在這個截圖上面他說大家快來搶購同款就是這個青柴灣的T恤然後當時有注意到呢這個其實是一個詐騙網頁但是他開始賣這個球衣那這個是二月的截圖我們來往下看"},{"start":63.667,"end":82.517,"text":"然後呢這個假的粉絲頁呢他就不斷的開始推播所以導致這個真正的粉絲頁的本尊就在三月中還有三月底連續發了兩篇的聲明告訴球迷要小心那個是假的粉絲頁那個是詐騙大家不要真的就去買了這樣那代表說這件事情有流量然後這個"},{"start":83.277,"end":96.193,"text":"本尊粉絲頁也是有流量的可是可以看得出來這個粉絲頁的本尊他其實非常非常的無奈那照理說我認為這樣的案例因為確實過去比較少可是因為他有新聞流量所以他就變成很容易讓人家下單去購買的一個對象這樣齁"},{"start":99.036,"end":122.805,"text":"那結果後來看起來他就跟臉書檢舉也沒有用那身為一般球迷或者是這個粉絲專業的版主可以怎麼做我們看到其實警政署也好書發部也好你們有那個APP可以檢舉相關的事情那我們來看一下確實這個打架有成效剛剛很多委員也說了去年我們看到刑事局下架了12萬筆如果按照今年1到4月就已經5萬2千多筆"},{"start":124.346,"end":151.826,"text":"我合理推估可能到年底會超過15萬筆對不對可能會更多但是基本的預估大概是15萬筆那我覺得這件事情非常重要這個對國人來說是一個可行看起來大家可以信任的平台跟機制可是我要有一個小小的提醒從一剛開始我說有流量有輿情它就會有詐騙的可能現在你們所有橫跨的平台裡面脆是沒有包含的"},{"start":153.567,"end":175.824,"text":"對嗎?對好,翠這個平台是沒有包含但是我們很感謝警政署你們在12月7號去年你們就提醒大家新興平台翠的串文要注意就是它可能真的會有相關詐騙雖然我後來去看了一下雖然現在他們還沒有開始讓廣告主可以投放廣告但是不管是很多直銷商啦或者是金融買賣的帳號"},{"start":177.645,"end":203.541,"text":"他們確實是用發文的方法用圖卡的方法用拍影片的方法想要吸引更多人關注他的帳號然後甚而造成可能有詐騙的可能性我再說一次他雖然沒有投放廣告但是他用發文用圖卡用影片的方法他還是會造成相關消費者的混淆然後就構成了相關詐騙的可能性我很想知道在目前翠在你們兩個部會的規劃是什麼對於翠這個平台"},{"start":206.002,"end":222.671,"text":"或者是對於其他新興的社群媒體平台我們還是會加強這些網路上的這些的巡邏啦就是搜尋這些相關的訊息是不是涉及這個炸雞的一個違規的狀況所以在你的檢舉平台當中我們現在一般使用我們檢舉平台除了說民眾的這個檢舉檢舉到165或者是告各檢查單位以外我們還有"},{"start":229.995,"end":247.5,"text":"我們有編排我們的網路巡邏的警察會主動去這些網路平台去做搜尋所以你也包含CHOI嗎包含那你可以告訴我目前你們在CHOI上有真的搜尋到類似的懷疑疑似是詐欺的我想這個正確數字我再跟我們的刑事局聯繫一下會後再給委員的資料會後給我們資料因為台灣人用CHOI證用很多好不好好那我想問一下蘇發布你們的APP裡面現在可以檢舉關於CHOI的部分嗎"},{"start":256.155,"end":273.822,"text":"報告委員我們在去年這個打雜事法通過之後呢我們在去年年底的時候呢依照就是高風險跟一定規模有公布了四個業者平台業者然後六個平台然後裡面目前確實還沒有Trade那是因為Trade他沒有投放廣告這樣的一個業務"},{"start":275.623,"end":297.805,"text":"那但是我們在這個平台業者的這個部分的公布呢我們每兩個月大概都會review一次關注他的這個流量有沒有就是因為投放廣告的這個部分會影響到我們廣大的民眾所以呢如果Trade開始也有做這個廣告投放的這樣的一個業務之後呢我們在關注他的這個流量跟影響程度以後"},{"start":299.006,"end":318.909,"text":"也許也會可以把它列為這樣子的一個就是說必須要去納管的一個平台那這個部分我們會持續的關注跟研議好所以我跟副署長嘛副署長我跟您確定一下所以速發布的APP要以廣告為主如同我剛剛說它在翠上面它不是用發廣告的方法它是以貼文啦圖卡啦影片的訊息傳遞出去它不是我們傳統看到的下廣告的方法"},{"start":328.431,"end":351.182,"text":"這個就不含你們速發部APP可以檢舉的對象嗎是的 因為我們在這個打炸釋法裡面有關網路廣告平台業者有他一定的定義就是說他必須要是接受網路在平台上面接受網路的這樣的一個廣告的一個投放然後並且收取對價的這樣的一個方式才會是我們納管的一個部分"},{"start":351.542,"end":369.24,"text":"了解了解好所以聽起來要嗎就是後續我們再討論你們怎麼調整這個看是要修法嗎我不是很確定但我時間有限所以看起來如果他是跟廣告有關但是剛剛警政署也說了你們會有更積極的不管是海巡或者是更積極的作為那我想一定要把新興社群媒體平台納入你們的對象好嗎"},{"start":371.502,"end":393.571,"text":"謝謝好這邊速發部請回那警政署請留步謝謝好接下來我們要講了詐欺這件事情其實我們現在看到比較大的困境喔在你們統計資料裡面113從111到11315歲以上未滿18歲的少年犯呢從在113年已經佔了三分之一那我想這個數字你一定非常清楚因為我們看圖表也非常清楚"},{"start":393.971,"end":412.72,"text":"但其實我很擔心喔之所以有這麼多15歲到18歲的孩子變成這個所謂加害人也好或是相關的嫌疑犯一定是因為他們的生活環境不管是社區生活學校生活網路環境的生活讓孩子們變成這個所謂的嫌疑犯但我很好奇我可以先回到前一張圖表嗎"},{"start":414.24,"end":427.372,"text":"15到18是你們現在有收集的數字但15以下呢15 說實話15到12在國中階段很可能就已經有一些案例了耶但我們目前沒有看到相關數字但那個也會是你們關懷的對象嗎應該是 18歲以下都是"},{"start":430.475,"end":445.936,"text":"18歲以下都是好那我們會持續追蹤那我們來往下看關於這群孩子他們現在最大的困境就是我們看到你們有一個預防兒童及少年犯罪方案14到117你們列了這麼多這麼多我就不再贅述了下一張好可是我們看到從"},{"start":448.509,"end":469.339,"text":"這個執行方案裡面對於各個部會都有要求各自應該要去做哪些事情確實這麼大的事情它需要跨部會的合作可是我們看到很多預防措施跟執行措施是落在內政部警政署有這麼多這麼多工作我們跟你們所知你們告訴我們說你們截至目前為止先將你們做了很多外講做了很多宣傳然後預計辦50集場對嗎"},{"start":474.136,"end":488.665,"text":"對的好 那你們自己之所以會規劃外講跟宣傳的原因是為什麼為什麼你們認為這樣的活動就可以促成所謂的15到18或者是18歲以下的兒少不要進入這個犯罪的可能你們想像的原因是什麼"},{"start":488.985,"end":503.333,"text":"我想就是一個也是就是一個宣導的一個讓讓全民都能夠了解這些兒少的一個犯罪的一個狀況那剛剛委員有提了因為這個是一個中長期的計畫包括牽涉在各部會"},{"start":504.293,"end":527.453,"text":"各部位 那我們也在行政委開過多次的這樣會議也有設定這一些的工作的項目跟定了目標值那我們根據這些內政部根據這些定的工作項目有關宣導的部分我們就是做規劃的這一方面的一個宣導讓這一些的青少年的一個犯罪的情形讓這個民眾可以去做了解 可以去做避免"},{"start":528.722,"end":546.11,"text":"我沒有說宣講跟外展活動沒有用但是我要講的是可能一個是我們從學校教育端來看可能孩子們在學校不會不知道這些事情可是如果我們的外展方案裡面還是很多的宣講還是侷限在例如說你們給我們的資料裡面你們提到"},{"start":547.33,"end":564.838,"text":"關於新興犯罪形態的認識啦少事法的轉向 兒童心理特質啦偏差行為啦 防毒啦 幫派啦這些它跟詐欺之間的關聯我必須跟您報告說實話我們在第一線收集到的聲音是很多孩子真的不知道我只不過是當個車手按個ATM有這麼嚴重嗎如果這個話今天是一個45歲50歲的大人說出來我們會責備他多一點"},{"start":574.042,"end":578.523,"text":"但是如果今天是一個12歲15歲18歲的孩子講出這個話我們會認為他們因為社會生活經驗比較少對法律的認知也比較少還在學習累積的階段所以他們講這個話雖然是不對的但是我們比較可以原諒他們但我要講的是孩子們剛剛講出那句話我只不過去按個ATM幫忙領個錢有這麼嚴重嗎這應該是現在很多年輕車手的困境"},{"start":602.35,"end":626.038,"text":"就他們不知道說原來我做這個事情有這麼嚴重那當然我不是說全部的孩子都是這樣所以對我來說如果我們站在教育推廣並且我們真的希望收到實質的成效我們在規劃跟青少年的對話的活動當中他理當更多元更豐富更接近他們的需求更理解他們的困境這是我想要給你們的建議"},{"start":627.479,"end":642.978,"text":"謝謝 謝委員我們這個部分就是宣講的這個內容跟這個整個的一個狀況會做更加的就精進好 這個部分我想我們之後再花時間跟你們討論因為我認為更接近小孩的需求真的才能夠收到賀止的成效"},{"start":643.519,"end":661.225,"text":"好 接下來有一個昨天的記者會喔是我跟范雲委員還有很多團體一起所召開的主要就是因為最近有一個案件落在新北的才藝班有一個老師他在他的教室不法裝設監視器在監視器拍到的角落對孩子進行性侵跟性騷"},{"start":662.265,"end":691.405,"text":"而這個行為因為家長關心孩子的日常學習生活所以才被發現等到家長發現帶著孩子準備開始去報案的時候在警務單位第一關出現了一個難題我簡單說給您聽當家長想要去報案的時候他就打電話先到地方他所居住地的派出所問而且他講了說有發生這個事情派出所的員警非常好心就說好沒有問題你們可以過來我們可以受理等到孩子跟家長去到了那個派出所現場"},{"start":692.946,"end":713.907,"text":"他一聽事發地點他才問他事發地點他說事發地點在B地不在我們這裡所以他請那個家長再帶著孩子跑到B地過去的派出所去做筆錄B的派出所收了這個案子一聽不對這個案子很嚴重不是我是性侵案不是我們派出所可以處理的才又轉到副右隊"},{"start":714.668,"end":722.485,"text":"也就是說我之前在跟警政署討論其實第一線的基層員警對於網路時代也好對於現在這個"},{"start":724.471,"end":753.132,"text":"非常多元複雜的犯罪樣態的不理解其實我們不想增加基層員警的工作loading可是我們又很希望所有的被害人在第一時間他們可以找到一個對的窗口給予正確的協助而不要讓這一群被害人他們要反覆反覆的述說其實光是在第一關警政單位我當時就有提醒可以做哪些事情我不知道您這兩天有沒有看到這個新聞"},{"start":753.732,"end":770.042,"text":"我有看到我覺得這個最主要關鍵就是要讓他減速的一個一個陳述的一個狀況那我也了解他的原理處理過程處理過程當中當然有一些管轄的問題但是案件是有受受理可是陳述的狀況是多次"},{"start":771.383,"end":788.824,"text":"關鍵最大就是要有一站式的服務的一個醫院的這個狀況那未來就是說這個一站式的服務的醫院是在衛生單位在各縣市政府來做一個規範那剛好這個案件的一個醫院沒有一站式所謂一站式就會只有警察"},{"start":790.154,"end":817.471,"text":"社工還有這些那個 沒關係我跟你說會有警政 警政 衛政 社政還有這些檢查檢查機關的 還有檢查機關就是法務部的檢查就是整個一站式在那邊一次做解決問題重點是在這一個所以未來能夠做精進的就是未來在這一站式的服務醫院裡面要加強這些醫院的一個設置那另外我們要加強的部分就是未來可能因為他的"},{"start":818.751,"end":843.52,"text":"轄區的地方沒有一站式的服務那是不是因為這種案件的話我們受理的話可能是不是要徵求這些被害人的家屬因為都是兒少的家屬的同意我們送到他們縣或轄區裡面的一站式的服務醫院來做處理這個就減少減速的一個狀況這邊您先留步我可不可以請司法院這邊"},{"start":845.694,"end":873.403,"text":"因為可能在法務部的檢調單位會有更複雜但是確實是三個部會包含未證也會有關係還有您剛說的因為這個案子裡面它有驗傷所以它包含連醫院端但是我非常開心聽到您剛剛說我們最好可以提供一站式協助被害人這真的是理想中但是我現在真的非常非常好奇在您所屬的或者是司法院這邊在你們所屬的單位裡面你們現在有任何單位有"},{"start":873.863,"end":900.489,"text":"真的跨部會討論一站式服務提供的可能性嗎或者是如何在22個縣市當中我們不要浩高霧雨我們一步一步來可以怎麼樣做一步一步的規劃還是其實都還沒有開始討論但沒關係我們從這個案子讓我們看見今天沒有辦法請教育部跟衛福部來其實這個案子它其實是各部會必須要真的認真提供一站式但就我所知目前台灣並沒有這樣的服務對不對"},{"start":902.549,"end":921.96,"text":"不管是司法院警政署或者是法務部現在有些有些醫院有的縣市政府是有一站式的服務例如比如講像台北市的有幾個醫院是有一站式服務新北好像也有可是因為這個案子就發生在新北啊那個分局的小區那個醫院沒有一站式的服務"},{"start":923.396,"end":938.832,"text":"就剛好那個醫院沒有一站式服務比如講像那個小區不用有比如像亞東醫院 雙樓醫院還有或者是現在的慈濟醫院這個都是一站式服務剛好那個分局的小區那個醫院不是一站式的服務"},{"start":939.352,"end":964.889,"text":"好 我聽懂了 我聽懂了意思就是說在現行你手上是有名單的所以我可以跟您要名單有名單那我之所以可以跟您要名單意思是說這個事情的發動起點是從警政署基層預警開始的這個發動的起點因為這個一站式的服務是衛生單位 醫院 衛福部所建構的主責建構的一站式那我們警政署也沒有規劃我們的同仁"},{"start":965.569,"end":981.781,"text":"要用這樣的一個因為轄區因為太多人也沒有不見得要是也沒有規範他要送到哪個醫院都是說轄區的就近的醫院去做驗傷那這個可能就是沒有這一戰事的這個狀況好未來假設回到這個個案我先請教您"},{"start":982.742,"end":1008.284,"text":"如果他的轄區在B但是提供一站式服務的醫院在A區那我身為這個轄區的派出所員警我知道這個案子不管他有沒有送去婦幼隊我可以直接不要收然後請他去那個醫院進行重新開始論述嗎還是我們應該更好的理想目標是假設假設同樣都在新北市同樣都在台北市這些這麼大的區域應該有一個主責的單位去理解這件事情然後"},{"start":1008.704,"end":1024.642,"text":"所有的基層員警都要受到相關的訓練當收到類似的案件尤其是針對18歲以下的孩子是受害人這麼敏感的案件的時候我們應該要直接啟動而不是以醫院為主不過這件事情不是你們所有就算了因為它確實需要跨部會的討論"},{"start":1025.523,"end":1054.518,"text":"但是我要說我要再說一次我沒有要問責於這個個案的所有基層員警因為他們的工作loading真的已經很重了幫人民處理大大小小的事情我真的想像的是說假設基層員警是第一層接受到這個案子的報案的對象那他們必須要有一個sense腦袋要裡面警鈴啟動說他必須要回到我們地方政府裡面的一站室那會是哪裡那有沒有機會透過各個縣市政府跟所有中央部會合作去促成這個一站室"},{"start":1055.398,"end":1079.75,"text":"我個人認為是未來是要積極去多推動這一戰事的就是說可以整合所有這些相關受理的這個資源那我們希望就是因為這個組織當然不是在內政部門當然當然那這個部門可是不是在衛政的單位來做來做這個推動有的是我們是散落在各個地方政府的一個相關的一個衛政單位"},{"start":1080.35,"end":1097.182,"text":"但是在這之前一戰事當然是最美好的理想而且他為了這個理想我們還得做很多的配套但是在這之前我還是要拜託警政署這邊真的要協助基層員警在這件事情上還是要建立相關的認知跟能力除了是可以確保他們的工作不會"},{"start":1098.283,"end":1115.744,"text":"做白宮其實像前面兩個員警搞不好都做了白宮對不對但是站在被害人的立場我們更希望協助他們那這裡面我要再一次強調有內政部警政署有司法院有法務部衛福部跟教育部他確實需要大家一起來努力好不好好謝謝那基層員警的部分我們一起加油好謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1302,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時1分）謝謝主席，我想先請警政署，還有數發部，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩署長、數發部。"],["張署長榮興：委員午安。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝兩位，午安。我們就直接來談可能一般人會很有感的詐欺案例，從去年到今年，棒球一直在臺灣是一個非常重要的話題，一旦它成為話題、成為輿情、成為流量，它就會成為詐欺周邊商品的可能性，對不對？我想這個你們一定都可以理解。"],["張署長榮興：對，沒有錯。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我們可以看到，在這個截圖上面，它說大家快來搶購同款，就是Team Taiwan的T-shirt，當時有注意到這其實是一個詐騙網頁，它開始賣這個球衣，這是2月的截圖。然後這個假的粉絲頁就不斷的開始推播，導致真正粉絲頁的本尊就在3月中還有3月底，連續發了兩篇聲明，告訴球迷要小心那個是假的粉絲頁，那個是詐騙，大家不要真的就去買了。代表這件事情有流量，然後本尊粉絲頁也是有流量的，可是可以看得出來這個粉絲頁的本尊其實非常非常的無奈。照理說這樣的案例確實過去比較少，可是因為它有新聞流量，所以就變成很容易讓人家下單去購買的一個對象。後來看起來去跟臉書檢舉也沒有用，身為一般球迷或者是粉絲專業的版主可以怎麼做？我們看到警政署也好、數發部也好，你們有app可以檢舉相關的事情，我們來看一下，確實打詐有成效，剛剛很多委員也說了，去年我們看到刑事局下架了12萬筆，如果按照今年1到4月就已經五萬兩千多筆，我合理推估可能到年底會超過15萬筆，對不對？可能會更多，但是基本的預估大概是15萬筆，我覺得這件事情非常重要，這個對國人來說是一個可行且看起來是大家可以信任的平台跟機制，可是我有一個小小的提醒，從一剛開始我就說，有流量、有輿情，它就會有詐騙的可能，現在你們所有含括的平臺裡面，Threads是沒有包含的，對嗎？"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：Threads這個平臺是沒有包含，但是我們很感謝警政署，你們在去年12月7號，就提醒大家新興平臺Threads的串文要注意，就是它可能真的會有相關詐騙。我後來去看了一下，雖然現在他們還沒有開始讓廣告主投放廣告，但是不管是很多直銷商或者是金融買賣的帳號，他們確實用發文的方法、用圖卡的方法、用拍影片的方法，想要吸引更多人關注它的帳號，甚而造成有詐騙的可能性。我再說一次，它雖然沒有投放廣告，但是它用發文、用圖卡、用影片的方法，還是會造成相關消費者的混淆，然後就構成了相關詐騙的可能性。我很想知道，目前Threads在你們兩個部會的規劃是什麼？對於Threads這個平臺或者是對於其他新興的社群媒體平臺。"],["張署長榮興：我們還是會加強這些網路上的巡邏，就是搜尋這些相關的訊息看是不是涉及詐欺的違規狀況，來做……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以在你們的檢舉平臺當中，我們現在一般使用者是……"],["張署長榮興：我們的檢舉平臺，除了收民眾的檢舉，檢舉到165或者是到各警察單位以外，我們還有編排網路巡邏的警察，會主動去這些網路平臺搜尋。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以也包含Threads嗎？"],["張署長榮興：包含。"],["陳委員培瑜：你可以告訴我，目前你們在Threads上有真的搜尋到類似的、懷疑、疑似是詐欺的訊息嗎？"],["張署長榮興：正確數字我再跟刑事局聯繫，會後再給委員資料。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒關係，你們會後再給我資料，因為臺灣人用Threads真的用很多，好不好？"],["張署長榮興：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：我想問一下數發部，你們的app裡面現在可以檢舉關於Threads的部分嗎？"],["黃副署長雅萍：報告委員，去年打詐四法通過之後，我們在去年年底的時候，依照高風險跟一定規模有公布了四個平臺業者、六個平臺，目前裡面確實還沒有Threads，因為Threads沒有投放廣告這樣的業務，但是我們在平臺業者這部分的公布，大概每兩個月都會review一次，關注它的流量有沒有……因為投放廣告的這個部分會影響到我們廣大的民眾，所以如果Threads也開始做廣告投放這樣的業務，我們在關注它的流量跟影響程度以後，也許也可以把它列為必須要去納管的平臺，這個部分我們會持續地關注跟研議。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，副署長，我跟您確定一下，所以數發部的app要以廣告為主，如同我剛剛說的，它在Threads上面不是用發廣告的方法，它是以貼文、圖卡、影片的訊息傳遞出去，它不是用傳統看到下廣告的方法，這個就不包含在你們數發部app可以檢舉的對象嗎？"],["黃副署長雅萍：是的，因為在打詐四法裡面，關於網路廣告平臺業者有它一定的定義，意思就是它必須是在平臺上面接受網路廣告的投放，並且收取對價，才會是我們納管的部分。"],["陳委員培瑜：了解，所以聽起來就是後續我們再討論怎麼調整，看是要修法嗎？我不是很確定，因我時間有限，但看起來它是跟廣告有關。剛剛警政署也說了，你們會有更積極的作為，不管是巡邏或者是其他更積極的作為，一定要把新興社群媒體平臺納入你們的對象，好嗎？謝謝。數發部請回，警政署請留步，謝謝。","接下來，我要講詐欺這件事情，其實我們現在看到比較大的困境，在你們的統計資料裡面，從111年到113年，15歲以上未滿18歲的少年犯在113年已經占了三分之一，我想這個數字你一定非常清楚，我們看圖表也非常清楚，但其實我很擔心，之所以有這麼多15歲到18歲的孩子變成加害人或是相關的嫌疑犯，一定是因為他們的生活環境，不管是社區生活、學校生活、網路環境的生活，讓孩子們變成所謂的嫌疑犯，但我很好奇，15到18歲是你們現在有蒐集的數字，但15歲以下呢？說實話，12到15歲，在國中階段很可能就已經有一些案例了，但我們目前沒有看到相關的數字，那個也會是你們關懷的對象嗎？"],["張署長榮興：18歲以下都是。"],["陳委員培瑜：18歲以下都是？"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們會持續追蹤。我們往下看，關於這群孩子現在最大的困境就是，我們看到你們有一個「預防兒童及少年犯罪方案」（114-117年），你們列了這麼多，我就不再贅述，可是我們看到這個執行方案裡面，對於各個部會都有要求各自應該要去做哪一些事情，確實，這麼大的事情需要跨部會合作，可是我們看到很多預防措施跟執行措施是落在內政部警政署，有這麼多、這麼多工作，我們跟你們索資，你們告訴我們，截至目前為止你們做了很多外展、做了很多宣傳，預計辦五十幾場，對嗎？"],["張署長榮興：對的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，你們之所以會規劃外展跟宣傳的原因是什麼？為什麼你們認為這樣的活動就可以杜絕15到18歲或者是18歲以下的兒少進入犯罪的可能？你們想像的原因是什麼？"],["張署長榮興：我想就是一個宣導，讓全民都能夠了解這些兒少的犯罪狀況。剛剛委員有提了，因為這是一個中長期的計畫，牽涉到各部會，我們在行政院多次開過這樣的會議，也有設定這些工作項目跟訂了目標值。內政部根據這些訂出來的工作項目來執行，有關宣導的部分，我們是規劃這一方面的宣導，將這些青少年的犯罪情形，讓民眾可以了解，也可以避免。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我沒有說宣講跟外展活動沒有用，但是我要講的是，從學校教育端來看，孩子們在學校可能不會不知道這些事情，可是如果你們的外展方案還是很多的宣講、還是侷限在你們給我們的資料裡面提到的，關於新興犯罪型態的認識、少事法的轉向、兒童心理特質、偏差行為、防毒、幫派等，這些跟詐欺之間的關聯，我必須跟您報告，說實話，我們在第一線蒐集到的聲音是，很多孩子真的不知道他只不過是當個車手，按個ATM，有這麼嚴重嗎？如果今天這句話是一個45歲、50歲的大人說出來，我們會責備他多一點，但是如果今天是一個12歲、15歲、18歲的孩子講出這句話，我們會認為他們因為社會生活經驗比較少，對法律的認知也比較少，還在學習累積的階段，所以他們講這個話雖然是不對的，但是我們比較可以原諒他們。但我要講的是，孩子們剛剛講出的那句話：我只不過去按個ATM，幫忙領個錢，有這麼嚴重嗎？這應該是現在很多年輕車手的困境，就是他們不知道原來他們做了這件事情有這麼嚴重。當然，我也不是說全部的孩子都是這樣，對我來說，如果我們站在教育推廣的角度，真的希望收到實質的成效，我們在規劃跟青少年對話的活動，理當更多元、更豐富、更接近他們的需求、更理解他們的困境，這是我想要給你們的建議。"],["張署長榮興：謝謝委員，就宣講的內容跟整個狀況，我們會更加精進。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個部分我想我們之後再花時間跟你們討論，因為我認為更接近小孩的需求，才能夠真的收到嚇阻的成效。","接下來，有一個昨天的記者會是我跟范雲委員還有很多團體一起召開的，主要就是因為最近有一個案件落在新北的才藝班。有一個老師在他的教室不法裝設監視器，在監視器拍得到的角落對孩子進行性侵跟性騷，而這個行為因為家長關心孩子的日常學習生活，所以才被發現。等到家長發現，帶著孩子準備開始去報案的時候，在第一關警務單位出現了一個難題，我簡單說給您聽。當家長想要去報案的時候，他先打電話到他居住地的派出所問，而且他講了有發生這個事情，派出所的員警非常好心就說：好，沒有問題，你們可以過來，我們可以受理。等到孩子跟家長到了那個派出所現場，警員問他們事發地點，他一聽，才說事發地點在B地，不在他們這裡，所以請那個家長再帶著孩子跑到B地的派出所去做筆錄。B地的派出所收了這個案子，一聽覺得不對，這個案子很嚴重，是性侵案，不是派出所可以處理的，才又轉到婦幼隊。也就是像我之前跟警政署討論過的，其實第一線的基層員警對於網路時代、對於現在非常多元、複雜的犯罪樣態不理解，當然我們不想增加基層員警的工作loading，可是我們又很希望所有的被害人在第一時間可以找到一個對的窗口，給予正確的協助，而不要讓這一群被害人要反覆、反覆地訴說，其實光是在第一關警政單位，我當時就有提醒可以做哪些事情，我不知道您這兩天有沒有看到這個新聞？"],["張署長榮興：我有看到，我覺得這個最主要的關鍵，就是要讓他儘速地陳述，我也了解員警的處理過程，在這個處理過程當中，當然有一些管轄的問題，案件是已經有受理，可是有多次陳述的狀況，最大的關鍵就是要有一站式服務的醫院。一站式服務的醫院是由衛政單位在各縣市政府來做規範，剛好這個案件的醫院沒有一站式服務，所謂一站式服務就會結合警察、社工，還有……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒關係，我跟你說會有警政。"],["張署長榮興：警政、衛政、社政，還有檢察機關的……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，還有法務部的檢察機關。"],["張署長榮興：就是整個一站式服務在那邊一次解決，重點是在這裡，所以能夠精進的就是未來要加強這些一站式服務醫院的設置。另外，我們要加強的部分就是，因為他的轄區沒有一站式的服務，我們受理這種案件的話，是不是要徵求被害人家屬的同意，因為都是兒少的案件，家屬同意後，我們就送到他們縣或轄區裡面的一站式服務醫院來處理，這就可以減少陳述的狀況。"],["陳委員培瑜：先請您留步，我請司法院，因為可能在法務部的檢調單位會更複雜，但是確實是三個部會包含衛政也會有關係，還有您剛剛說的，因為這個案子裡面有驗傷，所以包含醫院端，但是我非常開心聽到您剛剛說，我們最好可以提供一站式的服務協助被害人，這真的是理想，但是我現在真的非常非常好奇，在您所屬的或者是司法院所屬的單位裡面，有任何單位真的跨部會討論提供一站式服務的可能性嗎？或者是如何在22個縣市當中，我們不要好高騖遠，我們一步一步來，可以怎麼樣做一步一步的規劃？還是其實都還沒有開始討論？但沒關係，從這個案子讓我們看見，今天沒有辦法請教育部跟衛福部來，這個案子其實是各部會必須要認真提供一站式服務，但就我所知，目前臺灣並沒有這樣的服務，不管是司法院、警政署或者是法務部，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：報告委員，現在有些醫院、有的縣市政府有一站式的服務。"],["陳委員培瑜：例如？"],["張署長榮興：比如臺北市有幾個醫院有一站式服務，新北好像也有。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是這個案子就發生在新北，這個孩子……"],["張署長榮興：可是那個分局轄區的醫院沒有一站式的服務，就剛好那個醫院沒有一站式服務，比如亞東醫院、雙和醫院或新店的慈濟醫院，都是一站式服務，剛好那個分局轄區的那個醫院不是一站式的服務。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我聽懂了，意思就是現在你手上是有名單的，所以我可以跟您要名單。"],["張署長榮興：是有名單的。"],["陳委員培瑜：我之所以跟你要名單，意思是這個事情的發動起點是從警政署基層員警開始……"],["張署長榮興：這個發動的起點，因為一站式的服務是衛政單位衛福部主責建構的，我們警政署因為轄區太多了，也沒有規範同仁要送到哪個醫院，都是就近到轄區內的醫院去驗傷，這可能就沒有一站式的狀況。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，回到這個個案，我先請教您，如果他的轄區在B，但是提供一站式服務的醫院在A區，那我身為這個轄區的派出所員警，我知道了這個案子，不管有沒有送去婦幼隊，我可以直接不要收，然後請他去那個醫院重新開始論述嗎？還是更好的理想目標是假設同樣都在新北市、同樣都在臺北市這麼大的區域，應該有一個主責單位去理解這件事情，然後所有的基層員警都要受到相關的訓練，當收到類似的案件，尤其是針對18歲以下的孩子是受害人這麼敏感的案件時，我們應該要直接啟動，而不是以醫院為主。不過這件事情不是你們說了就算，因為它確實需要跨部會的討論。"],["張署長榮興：是，沒有錯，要跨部會。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是我要再說一次，我沒有要問責於這個個案的所有基層員警，因為他們的工作loading真的已經很重了，幫人民處理大大小小的事情，我真的想像的是，假設基層員警是第一層接受到報案的對象，那他們必須有一個sense，腦袋裡面的警鈴要啟動必須回到我們地方政府裡面的一站式服務，那會是哪裡？有沒有機會透過各個縣市政府跟中央部會合作去促成這個一站式服務？"],["張署長榮興：我個人認為未來是要積極去推動一站式的服務，就是可以整合所有受理的相關資源，因為主責不是在內政部。"],["陳委員培瑜：當然、當然。"],["張署長榮興：這個部分是不是由衛政單位來推動？現在有的是散落在各地方政府相關衛政單位來處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：一站式協助當然是最美好的理想，而且為了這個理想，我們還得做很多的配套，但是在這之前，我還是要拜託警政署真的要協助基層員警，要在這件事情上建立相關的認知跟能力，才可以確保他們的工作不會做白工，否則像前面兩個員警，搞不好都做了白工，除此之外，站在被害人的立場，我們更希望協助他們，這裡面我要再一次強調有內政部警政署、有司法院、有法務部、衛福部跟教育部，確實需要大家一起來努力，好不好？"],["張署長榮興：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：那基層員警的部分，我們一起加油，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員。","所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束，委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","委員莊瑞雄、翁曉玲、林倩綺、沈發惠、徐欣瑩所提書面質詢，均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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部長好 副秘好我想今天是打詐專報去年立法院通過了打詐專法尤其是詐欺危害防治條例那現在執行的狀況剛剛也看到很多委員質詢說的確是有一些成效但是現在碰到我認為比較嚴重的問題它第四十七條規定說犯詐欺犯罪在偵查還有歷次的審判中自白"},{"start":44.605,"end":61.54,"text":"如果有犯罪所得要自動繳交其犯罪所得的要減輕其刑現在的問題就是立法院跟法務部在去年在這個場域裡面我們大家所探討的就是我們的打詐專法是要加重加嚴對吧 部長是"},{"start":62.501,"end":89.65,"text":"加重加嚴是你法務部的立場 也是立法院的立場所以在蔡壁飛案條例都有比新法做得比較對 所以這個很清楚我們同意自白加上犯罪所得繳回的解禁期刑錯我們這個是必檢 這個法條就要必檢另外查獲主持的相關的組織的話是必檢或避免 免處期刑這個情況是法務部的立場 也是司法院的立場嗎"},{"start":91.25,"end":116.369,"text":"是但是現在最大的問題是司法 法務部 立法院都非常認真地立了這個法加重 加嚴但現在的問題是在法院法官們對於犯罪所得的認定有很大的歧義也就是說他們對於立法者的立法意識不了解或者是他們自行做了解釋所以刑事最高法院"},{"start":119.096,"end":139.939,"text":"的刑三庭申請了大法庭解釋這個問題就在於法務部認為我們的犯罪所得是什麼 部長你認為的犯罪所得是什麼是整體詐團的 就是被害人的被害人的受害金額但是法院把它認為是車手得到的報酬 是嗎 副秘書長"},{"start":142.643,"end":153.933,"text":"這個部分確實法院之間有不同見解所以現在才要大法庭來解釋那我要在這邊問的是這個法案送到立法院來之前在法務部跟司法院沒有討論過嗎"},{"start":156.581,"end":185.475,"text":"在這個委員會在審查的法案的同時司法院的刑事廳也有人派人在現場做了非常非常明確的詢答而且他也清楚的知道立法意向為什麼到司法院之後完全沒有任何的沒有任何的共識甚至在每個法庭的法官有不同的見解這才是我今天要問的部長你們之前有跟司法院溝通過犯罪所得的標準跟你們的立場立法的意旨還有立法院的意見嗎"},{"start":187.113,"end":212.144,"text":"立法說明是有寫立法說明有寫司法院刑事廳不知道還是他知道然後沒有辦法做出同意解釋還是讓法官自己解釋現在問題就是法務部立法院加重加嚴我們的法院拼命在減輕然後還要大法庭解釋這不是很奇怪嗎副秘書長你們司法院沒有參與他們的修法過程和立法議職嗎"},{"start":213.661,"end":241.323,"text":"是有匯錢有匯錢那為什麼會出現這種狀況現在相關的法院大部分的法官認為說車手只拿了幾千塊要他賠幾十萬很不很平這我也可以理解但是我還是回到原點原來我們的立法一直到底是什麼第二個現在這樣的起義造成了非常多民眾的觀感我們在打詐打假的啊"},{"start":242.315,"end":256.664,"text":"一樣啦 詐欺犯這麼輕 只要說我沒拿到錢只要自白 只要說我還沒有拿到報酬就減輕欸 甚至就放人欸部長 你們的立法意志 司法院不知道是嗎你們之前有溝通嗎部長 你要不要回答"},{"start":263.952,"end":288.378,"text":"這個在行政院審查會的時候司法院就派人我今天的問題是好5月14號大法庭要做解釋的現在看起來大部分的法院法庭的幾個庭最高法院三個九個庭只有一個庭支持法務部啦另外八個庭都不支持你啦接下去你要怎麼辦解釋出來如果犯罪所的是大法庭解釋說是車手個人的報酬"},{"start":289.977,"end":307.396,"text":"法務部要不要帶來修法還是我們要幫你修法還是你的立場要不要講清楚啊如果說大法庭解釋是不是採被害人的被害金而說的話那就是違反你的立法意志啊當然我們就是要啟動修法不是要啟動修法你現在就準備好5月10號你的法案就進來"},{"start":308.513,"end":327.452,"text":"立法委員都支持你們結果我們自己一個國家的體制完全互相不聯絡然後法官我相信他也是在找一個平衡點所以你們在修法的時候司法院就應該表達你們的立場你們希望的平衡點在哪裡法務部不能我們這邊做壞人你們這邊做好人啊副秘書長"},{"start":328.613,"end":353.26,"text":"如果修法你們要不要參與呢還是你們的意見是什麼如果法庭都是這樣的意見那就拿出來你們的版本說台灣的中華民國的最高法院不希望加重加嚴而不是我們修法修了半天法官拼命在放人你可以理解我的意思嗎所以在修法是必然是嗎 部長要看判決的結果"},{"start":354.192,"end":377.129,"text":"好 如果他的判決結果不符原來的立法意旨你多久之內要送法案來立法院全體幾乎不分黨派全部支持打詐專法結果搞到今天這個樣子剛剛講的什麼打詐的已經都騙人了啦抓到人判不了刑然後最後他自己隨便說說交個三千塊五千塊他就沒事了"},{"start":378.072,"end":398.427,"text":"你要這些年輕人繼續投入詐騙集團嗎繼續被詐騙集團所用嗎因為發現沒事所以大家繼續來打詐是越打越詐兩位我希望在5月14號的判決以後不管怎麼樣的結果如果不符合原來法務部送到立法院的立法意旨請你在一個月之內提案修法可以嗎"},{"start":400.402,"end":429.013,"text":"還是我們來努力好 司法院我覺得也是一樣如果你們都派人來立法院聽了 詢答了看到立法委員每一個義憤填膺的要怎麼修不可以到法庭上是另外一種結果扶民署長 這是你們的責任要把相關的立法一直很普遍的讓所有的法官都能夠明瞭否則法律各自解釋那我們不用在這邊浪費時間我們修完了你們解釋我們修完了你們解釋 最後什麼修法沒有用"},{"start":430.287,"end":442.185,"text":"就廢物啊就立了一些廢法好嗎部長這是你的承諾如果5月14號的結果我一個月等你的相關的法案我覺得要給立法委員一個交代是謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1258,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時54分）謝謝主席，我請鄭部長還有司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：鄭部長、副秘。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長好、副秘好。我想今天是打詐專報，去年立法院通過了打詐專法，尤其是詐欺危害防制條例，現在執行的狀況，剛剛也看到很多委員質詢的確是有一些成效，但是現在碰到我認為比較嚴重的問題。第四十七條規定，犯詐欺犯罪，在偵查及歷次審判中均自白，如有犯罪所得，自動繳交其犯罪所得者，減輕其刑。現在的問題就是立法院跟法務部去年在這個場域裡面，我們大家所探討的就是打詐專法要加重、加嚴，對吧，部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：加重、加嚴是法務部的立場？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：也是立法院的立場？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，所以詐欺犯罪危害防制條例都有比刑法……"],["黃委員珊珊：對，所以這個很清楚，我們同意自白加上犯罪所得繳回得減輕其刑。錯！我們這個是必減。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個法條叫必減。另外，查獲主持相關組織之人者是必減或必免（免除其刑），這個情況是法務部的立場，也是司法院的立場嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是現在最大的問題是，法務部、立法院都非常認真的立了這個法，加重、加嚴，但現在的問題是在法院，法官們對於犯罪所得的認定有很大的歧異，也就是說，他們對於立法者的立法意旨不了解或者是他們自行做了解釋，所以最高法院刑三庭聲請了大法庭解釋，這個問題就在於法務部認為犯罪所得是什麼？部長，你認為的犯罪所得是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是整體詐團的……就是被害人的……"],["黃委員珊珊：被害人的受害金額？"],["鄭部長銘謙：受害金額。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，但是法院把它認為是車手得到的報酬，是嗎？副秘書長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分確實法院之間有不同見解。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以現在才要大法庭來解釋嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：我要在這邊問的是，這個法案送到立法院之前，法務部跟司法院沒有討論過嗎？委員會在審查法案的同時，司法院刑事廳也有派人在現場做了非常、非常明確的詢答，而且他也清楚地知道立法意向，為什麼到司法院之後，完全沒有任何共識，甚至每個法庭的法官有不同的見解？這才是我今天要問的，部長，你們之前有跟司法院溝通過犯罪所得的標準跟你們的立場、立法的意旨，還有立法院的意見嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：立法說明有寫。"],["黃委員珊珊：立法說明有寫，司法院刑事廳不知道？還是它知道，然後沒有辦法做出統一解釋，讓法官自己解釋？現在問題就是法務部、立法院加重、加嚴，我們的法院拚命在減輕，然後還要大法庭解釋，這不是很奇怪嗎？副秘書長，你們司法院沒有參與他們的修法過程和立法意旨嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是有會銜。"],["黃委員珊珊：那為什麼會出現這種狀況？現在相關法院大部分的法官認為車手只拿了幾千塊，要他賠幾十萬很不衡平，這我也可以理解，但是我還是回到原點，原來我們的立法意旨到底是什麼？第二個，現在這樣的歧異造成非常多民眾的觀感不佳，認為我們在打詐打假的，一樣，詐欺犯這麼輕，只要說我沒拿到錢、只要自白、只要說我還沒有拿到報酬就減輕，甚至就放人，部長，你們的立法意旨司法院不知道嗎？你們之前有溝通嗎？部長，你要不要回答？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個在行政院審查會的時候，司法院就有派人參與了。"],["黃委員珊珊：我今天的問題是，5月14號大法庭要做解釋了，現在看起來大部分的法院，高等法院、最高法院9個庭只有1個庭支持法務部，另外8個庭都不支持你啦！接下去，你要怎麼辦？解釋出來，如果犯罪所得大法庭解釋是車手個人的報酬，法務部要不要再來修法？還是我們要幫你修法？你的立場要不要講清楚？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果說大法庭解釋不是採被害人的被害金額的話……"],["黃委員珊珊：那就是違反你的立法意旨啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：那我們就是要啟動修法。"],["黃委員珊珊：不是要啟動修法，你現在就要準備好，5月14號你的法案就進來，立法委員都支持你們，結果我們自己國家的體制完全互相不聯絡，然後我相信法官也是在找一個平衡點，所以在修法的時候，司法院就應該表達你們的立場，你們希望的衡平點在哪裡？不能我們這邊做壞人，你們那邊做好人，副秘書長，如果修法，你們要不要參與呢？還是你們的意見是什麼？如果法庭都是這樣的意見，那就拿出來你們的版本，表達中華民國的最高法院不希望加重、加嚴，而不是我們修法修了半天，法官拚命在放人，你可以理解我的意思嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以再修法是必然，是嗎？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：要看判決的結果。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，如果它的判決結果不符原來的立法意旨……"],["鄭部長銘謙：那就修法……"],["黃委員珊珊：你多久之內要送法案來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們儘速。"],["黃委員珊珊：立法院全體幾乎不分黨派全部支持打詐專法，結果搞到今天這個樣子，剛剛講的什麼打詐都騙人的啦！抓到人判不了刑，然後最後他自己隨便說說，交個三千塊、五千塊就沒事了，你要這些年輕人繼續投入詐騙集團嗎？繼續被詐騙集團所用嗎？因為發現沒事，所以大家繼續來，打詐是越打越詐。兩位，我希望在5月14號的判決以後，不管怎麼樣的結果，如果不符合原來法務部送到立法院的立法意旨，請你在1個月之內提案修法，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們來努力。"],["黃委員珊珊：司法院，我覺得也是一樣，如果你們都派人來立法院聽了、詢答了，看到立法委員每一個義憤填膺地要怎麼修，不可以到法庭上是另外一種結果。副秘書長，這是你們的責任，要把相關的立法意旨很普遍的讓所有法官都能夠明瞭，否則法律各自解釋，那我們不用在這邊浪費時間，我們修完了、你們解釋，我們修完了、你們解釋，最後什麼？修法沒有用，就廢物啊！就立了一些廢法，好嗎？部長，這是你的承諾，如果5月14號結果，我1個月等你的相關法案，我覺得要給立法委員一個交代。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位我們請葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之。","徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩。","下一位請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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戲就問題我覺得看白話來講就是常看到的就是沒錢又沒有人但我相信大家都知道性影像這個犯罪問題呢"},{"start":163.968,"end":180.685,"text":"非常嚴重那相信署長應該也很重視那我就好奇每一年的預算有多少所以想問署長你覺得性影響犯罪是嚴重犯罪嗎那就要再請教今年的也就是數位性暴力的防治預算有多少"},{"start":181.434,"end":189.524,"text":"那跟委員報告這有關這個預算裡面是統編在科技偵查的預算裡面不會說對針對性影像專者編這個預算也是在偵查偵辦科技犯罪的一個預算的範圍裡面沒有做專者這樣提列出來的一個預算"},{"start":200.657,"end":217.063,"text":"我看到我現在拿到的數據是601萬300元主要大家都在教育訓練宣導費用除非就像剛剛署長提的是說你發科技偵辦裡面可是我們現在拿到可是相對的來講今年宣布"},{"start":217.943,"end":242.228,"text":"預防兒少犯罪方案就76億元喔這是預防性的齁那大概如果以這樣601萬來比的話大概就佔到0.07而已如果橫比上來看的話那比例上那所以是小巫見大巫所以問了警政署說那為何沒有專項的預算因為既然這個問題很嚴重可是得到回覆是說喔還在評估當中沒有錢又沒有人那現況怎麼辦呢"},{"start":243.368,"end":254.888,"text":"是要靠員警的熱情嗎員警基層努力嗎努力就會有收穫嗎所以我不知道說整個想來問署長你的性影像案件的續講怎麼計算"},{"start":256.311,"end":282.696,"text":"那對於姓李這樣的一個續講我想也是採取比較中獎的方式來鼓勵同仁偵辦這案件那這個偵辦案件裡面我們大概有兩個面向第一個大概我們會主動去做網路上的去做巡邏了解這個整個的來源再來就是備案的這個報案那這部分我想就是我們全國各警察機關對於這項的工作是非常重視的"},{"start":283.416,"end":311.486,"text":"那當然這個我們的主責的單位是在婦幼隊的一個專責但是偵辦的單位大概都會只有地方警察局的偵查隊或是警察局的刑警大隊會來做一個偵查那現在偵查的這個能量跟能力我想應該沒有問題就是說對於這些案件的一個力道未來我們會加強對於這個方面的一個偵查署長我現在問你的是"},{"start":312.986,"end":338.865,"text":"所以我們來看一下你的續講的整個這樣子我應該講說不是酒駕不重要可是案件複雜程度的話應該是性影像比較複雜而且酒駕相對事實上單純可是續講的計算怎麼差異這麼大也就是說今天處理性影像沒累積事件才加獎一次可是酒駕的話就是計慢車就加獎一次如果汽車的話加獎兩次"},{"start":341.126,"end":363.256,"text":"這橫比上真的落差非常的大這樣子的話我們是要去靠我們的基層的熱情嗎委員這個部分我們拿回去再做檢討就是對於基地市區這個部分我都同意來做滾動式的一個檢討讓我們的同仁更有這些的熱情對 如果他們很努力的話應該要去做鼓勵對 從優來去講我想創意私房也好 觸感空間"},{"start":368.138,"end":396.228,"text":"這兩個在發生之後真的對我們耳哨影響非常非常的大這個案件尤其是在刑事局跟我在台北市府的時候這兩個案子的偵查偵辦希望你們回去好好的去檢討那問題四呢最後一個問題就是我覺得青春專案當然我之前有看也有委員質詢過可是我還是有好奇的兩個問題就是首先如果不是專案執行期間遇到耳哨性剝削犯罪你到底查不查緝啊"},{"start":397.108,"end":421.404,"text":"我從基層收到的食物的狀況不是這樣子喔只不過就是因為青春案件每年在七八月大概暑期的期間有一些青少年大概就是我們的這些學生大概就是都放假可是如果牽扯下去講的話他可能會等到後邊才去做的話那這樣子的話對於我覺得兒少的性剝削這件事情就不會有力道出現"},{"start":421.704,"end":432.434,"text":"對 所以我剛剛委員所提的對於核酸性剝削的這些的有功或者是這些的出力的同仁我要重新來檢討這個獎勵的制度對 你要通盤檢討啦通盤來檢討獎勵的制度還有另外一個我要問的是"},{"start":436.994,"end":459.74,"text":"兒少的這三個狀況 也就是自我剝削的情形比如說他自己在住處招攬性交易或者是在包養網站上刊登自身的一些訊息因為他還沒發生嘛 兒少在網路上傳自身的信息像你 因為沒有 還沒有所謂的加害人 到底要不要救援那救援有沒有分數啊"},{"start":461.6,"end":477.353,"text":"這個部分就是未過程之前的這個可能要研究一下了所以我希望你們可以去可能有一些主辦單位就是這個主管機關是不是要加入一起來可是資深已經是在PO這些東西的話"},{"start":478.414,"end":492.855,"text":"因為我們的確過去事實上是要救救除棄現在很多時候是志願的那我們要怎麼去防堵我覺得這件事情還是要來努力還有不要忘記我們是CRC跟CDO的施行國"},{"start":494.096,"end":516.882,"text":"所以兒權公約明年也要交第三次國家報告了我們第34條他就很清楚的是說我們應該承諾保護兒童免於所有形式的性剝削跟性虐待那CITO也是這樣子提及所以不要忘記是明年到底要怎麼去交因為我們的這樣的犯罪這麼樣的嚴重明年要交第三次國家報告之後你怎麼去提及這個"},{"start":517.822,"end":539.849,"text":"所以最後我就期待就請署長針對於像第一點檢討修正我們吸引像處理流程來強化第一線的員警的專業智能不過第二項我就要請法務部部長也在這邊麻煩你們檢討強制處分適用案件跟程序來提升我們的偵查權限跟優化辦案效率不知道部長這邊OK嗎"},{"start":543.113,"end":560.569,"text":"我們回去嚴厲OK那第三回來還是希望我們署長這邊擴大性犯罪的偵犯能量來要有專項的經費預算然後挹注足夠的人力他請你全面檢討所有的整個續講機制不要"},{"start":561.209,"end":585.929,"text":"在青春專案那個時間點或者是跟酒駕的不對等這樣的續講方式沒有辦法讓人家更奮力的去辦這件事情否則真的就是在消耗他們的熱情而已所以再來最後就是檢討我們的青春專案的規劃跟執行那麻煩兩位就是是不是可以兩週後給我我這題的五項給我那個報告好 可以好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1216,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（11時44分）主席，麻煩請警政署署長。"],["主席：麻煩署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員午安。"],["林委員月琴：署長好。今天剛好法務部也在，等一下有些問題可能要請法務部協助。時間不多，我直接切入重點。請問署長，每年性影像犯罪有多少案件？有多少被害人？"],["張署長榮興：這個數據我手頭沒有，事後再提供給委員。"],["林委員月琴：好，那我們就看性影像的犯罪持續事實上是成長的，從這數據可以看到112年跟113年相較，事實上113年成長了66%，光今年的1月就有530名的被害人，這些都還是浮在檯面上的，檯面下的、不願報案的，我相信不計其數。其中我覺得可以關注的就是未成年跟成年人被害的比例是3.5比6.5，差異性很高，從結果上來看的話，成年人的案量比較大，我們先不討論未成年，他可能去阻礙到沒辦法進入到司法體系的其他原因，我們先來談的是其他的問題。問題一，我要提到的是成人影像的案件裡邊，特別去看到實務上存在幾個問題，一是我們可以看到量能不足的問題，主要體現在地方婦幼隊編制以行政業務為主，我想署長應該也知道，光是處理龐大的行政聯繫事項就已經疲於奔命了，如何做到偵查防制？還有其次，在目前可知運用的強制處分的手段上，受限於法規的門檻跟程序，兒少類的性影像一律可以處理，可是一旦跨過18歲就處處受到限制。再來，處理案件的流程欠缺專業性，受理被害人報案後，沒有先聲請扣押就通知嫌疑人，證據往往就在這過程當中不見了。最後，就算第一線的員警有意願、有熱情、有專業、有敏感度要去處理，但地方分局的設備跟自身的偵查能力，都可能讓我們的員警心有餘而力不足。細究問題，白話來講就是常看到的沒錢又沒有人，當然我相信大家都知道，性影像這個犯罪問題非常嚴重，相信署長應該也很重視，我就好奇每一年的預算有多少，所以想問署長，你覺得性影像犯罪是嚴重犯罪嗎？那就要再請教，今年的數位性暴力的防制預算有多少？"],["張署長榮興：跟委員報告，相關預算是統編在科技偵查的預算裡面，不會說針對性影像專責編這個預算，也是在偵辦科技犯罪預算的範疇裡面，沒有專責提列出來的預算。"],["林委員月琴：我現在拿到的數據是601萬300元，主要大概都在教育訓練、宣導費用，除非就像剛剛署長提的是說你放在科技偵辦裡邊，可是相對來講，今年宣布預防兒少犯罪方案就76億元，這是預防性的，如果以這樣601萬來比的話，大概就占到0.07%而已，如果衡比上來看的話是小巫見大巫，所以問了警政署說為何沒有專項的預算，因為既然這個問題很嚴重，可是得到的回復是說還在評估當中，沒有錢又沒有人，現況怎麼辦呢？是要靠員警的熱情嗎？員警基層努力嗎？努力就會有收穫嗎？所以我不知道，整個想來問署長，你的性影像案件的敘獎怎麼計算？"],["張署長榮興：對於性影像的敘獎，我想也是採取比較重獎的方式來鼓勵同仁偵辦案件，偵辦案件裡面我們大概有兩個面向，第一個大概我們會主動去做網路上的巡邏，了解整個來源，再來是被害人的報案，這部分我想就是我們全國各警察機關對於這項工作是非常重視的。當然我們的主責單位是在婦幼隊，但是偵辦的單位大概都會只有地方警察局的偵查隊或者是警察局的刑警大隊會來做偵查，現在偵查的能量跟能力，我想應該也沒有問題，就是說對於這些案件的力道，未來我們會加強對於這個方面的偵查。"],["林委員月琴：署長，我現在問你的是敘獎，所以我們來看一下，你的敘獎的整個這樣子……應該講說不是酒駕不重要，可是案件複雜程度的話，應該是性影像比較複雜，而且酒駕相對事實上單純，可是敘獎的計算怎麼差異這麼大？也就是說今天處理性影像每累積4件才嘉獎1次，可是酒駕的話就是機慢車就嘉獎1次，如果汽車的話嘉獎2次，這衡比上真的落差非常大，這樣子的話我們是要去靠我們基層的熱情嗎？"],["張署長榮興：委員，這個部分我們拿回去再做檢討，就是對於……"],["林委員月琴：好，也希望能夠……"],["張署長榮興：激勵士氣這個部分我都同意來做滾動式的檢討，讓我們同仁更有這些熱情跟士氣來偵辦。"],["林委員月琴：對，如果他們很努力的話，應該要去鼓勵。"],["張署長榮興：對，從優來敘獎。"],["林委員月琴：我想創意私房也好、觸感空間也好，這兩個在發生之後真的對我們兒少影響非常非常大。"],["張署長榮興：對，這個案件，尤其是在刑事局，我在臺北市服務的時候，這兩個案子的偵查、偵辦都有參與。"],["林委員月琴：署長，希望你們回去好好檢討。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["林委員月琴：問題四，最後一個問題就是我覺得青春專案，當然我之前看也有委員質詢過，可是我還是好奇兩個問題，就是首先如果不是專案執行期間，遇到兒少性剝削犯罪，你到底查不查緝啊？"],["張署長榮興：查緝啊！一樣查緝啊！只不過……"],["林委員月琴：怎麼我從基層收到的實務狀況不是這樣子喔！"],["張署長榮興：只不過就是因為青春專案每年在7、8月，大概暑期期間有一些青少年，就是我們的這些學生大概就是都放假……"],["林委員月琴：可是如果牽扯到敘獎的話，他可能會等到後邊才去做的話，那這樣子的話，對於我覺得兒少的性剝削這件事情就不會有力道處理得很好。"],["張署長榮興：對，所以剛剛委員所提的，對於兒少性剝削的這些的有功或者是這些出力的同仁，我要重新來檢討這個獎勵的制度。"],["林委員月琴：對，你要通盤檢討啦！"],["張署長榮興：通盤來檢討獎勵的制度。"],["林委員月琴：還有另外一個，我要問的是兒少的三個狀況，也就是自我剝削的情形，譬如說他自己在住處招攬性交易或者是在包養網站上刊登自身的一些訊息，因為它還沒發生嘛！兒少在網路上傳自身的性影像，因為還沒有所謂的加害人，到底要不要救援？那救援有沒有分數？"],["張署長榮興：這個部分就是未構成之前的，可能要研究一下。"],["林委員月琴：所以我希望你們可以去……"],["張署長榮興：可能有一些主辦單位，就是主管機關是不是要加入一起來……"],["林委員月琴：可是他自身已經是在po這些東西的話……"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["林委員月琴：因為我們的確過去事實上什麼要救救雛妓，現在很多時候是自願的，那我們要怎麼去防堵？我覺得這件事情還是要來努力。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["林委員月琴：還有不要忘記我們是CRC跟CEDAW的施行國，所以兒權公約明年也要交第三次國家報告了，第三十四條就很清楚是說，我們應該承諾保護兒童免於所有形式的性剝削跟性虐待；CEDAW也是這樣子提及，所以不要忘記，以我們這樣的犯罪這麼樣的嚴重，明年要交第三次國家報告的時候，你怎麼去提及這個。所以最後我就期待，請署長針對於像第一點，檢討修正我們性影像處理流程來強化第一線員警的專業知能。第二項我就要請法務部，部長也在這邊，麻煩你們檢討強制處分適用案件跟程序，來提升我們的偵查權限跟優化辦案效率，不知道部長這邊OK嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們回去研議，OK。"],["林委員月琴：第三，還是希望我們署長這邊擴大性犯罪的偵辦能量，要有專項的經費、預算，然後挹注足夠的人力，還有請你全面檢討整個敘獎機制，不要在青春專案那個時間點或者是跟酒駕不對等這樣的敘獎方式，沒有辦法讓人家更奮力地去辦這件事情，否則真的就是在消耗他們的熱情而已。再來最後就是檢討青春專案的規劃跟執行，麻煩兩位是不是可以兩週後針對我提的五項給我報告？"],["張署長榮興：好，可以。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請黃珊珊委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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們主張要鼓勵還有二手票券的交易平台的規劃那到去年4月我們發現"},{"start":63.152,"end":81.985,"text":"其實已經有了黃牛檢舉專區就是你們文化部做的可是發現檢舉門檻所以也不一定要不用再去做什麼APP你們本來就有黃牛檢舉專區發現檢舉的門檻太高所以我兩次都要求文化部要降低可是今天 下一頁"},{"start":83.328,"end":100.257,"text":"就是這個部分我們就不用講了我們修法的內容那現在還是未成案比例太高所以問題是出在你們這個檢舉專區很多人認為說因為你要有就是座位的號碼所以讓大家變成是說要先成交然後才能檢舉成功"},{"start":104.419,"end":109.223,"text":"那這個部分下一頁就是我之前的質詢就是希望你們改這個檢舉黃牛專區的設計那當時你們也答應了就是說不需要先成交就可以檢舉"},{"start":119.91,"end":123.555,"text":"因為成交就更難了嘛那為什麼超過一年你們還是沒有修正喔那下一頁喔那你們給我們的公文就說文化部其實台北市政府也來問這個問題那你們有函附台北市政府說未成交也可以開罰"},{"start":137.253,"end":166.392,"text":"那但是呢很多人那重要是說你這相關的辦法也還沒改一個就是黃牛專區喔因為我們去查了一下其實你可以自己修正這個執法就是檢舉案件處理及獎勵辦法裡面規範了要座位號碼入場序號那不就等於要買成這個黃牛票才能夠嗎那你明明就可以去改變的部分喔那所以就發現你們沒有處理這個部分這是我今天第一個想問的問題喔下一頁"},{"start":167.533,"end":176.503,"text":"第二個我覺得我們現在要聚焦問題當時我們鼓勵你們做實名制因為日本的實名制就非常有名其實也證明實名制你們給我們的報告中95%的檢舉是發生在沒有實名制的"},{"start":183.03,"end":209.903,"text":"所以其實只要實名制它就不會有這個部分可是我們現在看到的譬如說周杰倫張學友這些在台北大巨蛋還有包含高雄市域上還是有一些沒有實名制在下一頁所以你鼓勵實名制已經有一些成效你核定的效果目前的計畫是這樣所以下一頁所以我今天很具體的想問就是說第一個就實名制文化部如何繼續推動"},{"start":211.144,"end":236.426,"text":"那這些還沒有辦法 譬如說小巨蛋這次他就有推出方案實名制可以享受活動日場租八五折這樣不是很好嗎 那個主辦單位他就會去考慮實名制那可是台北大巨蛋林口體育館還有其他的都還在研議所以是不是文化部第一個可以就實名制 下一頁"},{"start":237.895,"end":261.102,"text":"未來的多場大型演唱會比如我自己也很喜歡的孫燕姿要來了大家有看到新聞那能不能夠採實名制然後困難在哪裡那在下一頁那還有我剛剛前面所講的其實你們自己的執法要修還有那個黃牛專區的平台的修改那部長是不是可以簡要回答我"},{"start":264.403,"end":279.982,"text":"一個是實名制目前還是有一些場館沒有辦法推動成功的那部長是不是可以更積極的去推動還有剛剛講你們只要修職法拿掉那些票券等具體名稱的這個兩個事情是不是可以再精進再努力"},{"start":280.382,"end":301.914,"text":"好 謝謝其實我剛才有在前面回答過就是實名制這個因為我沒辦法在法律上限制對 用鼓勵的我們其實都知道是要鼓勵的對 但是我們也很感謝各地方政府跟那些廠廣跟我們開會完他們也積極的盡量鼓勵用實名制那效果的確不錯就大家可以看到那個增加了"},{"start":302.654,"end":322.902,"text":"速度蠻快的然後我們也補助他另外他們也用那個用獎勵的譬如你以實名字我就給你八五折那目前只有小巨蛋那這個部分我們會再來你們再精進好嗎對是那還有剛剛我講的說休職法那個部分還有你的檢舉黃流專區的改變這是不是可以簡單你們自己就可以做到的"},{"start":323.567,"end":349.642,"text":"這個好像很難很難嗎我是不是請那因為時間的緣故你們去研議然後可不可以一個月內再給本席報告呢相關的報告好嗎好的委員如果需要報告我們會再提供那這邊先簡單說明一下之所以需要有這些檢舉資訊主要是因為我必須能夠循線追查不然其實地方政府他其實沒有任何可以去追索的線索的時候這些事情都沒有辦法做進一步的查證"},{"start":350.663,"end":370.813,"text":"那這樣有一個矛盾啦因為你們給台北市的公文說不需要買成票嘛就是跟委員報告其實現在其實我們也一直在跟民眾消費者大眾其實在呼籲其實現在網路上有非常多他宣稱他有票但是他無法提供票號或是座位號的時候實際上他可能就是99.9%是詐騙所以基本上我們不鼓勵不鼓勵買黃牛票這個矛盾是在哪裡不用買成票就可以檢舉可是黃牛專區卻要有詳細的票號"},{"start":380.097,"end":404.843,"text":"這個沒有買成的他其實是有跟對方詢問你是不是可以給我看你的票號那他其實提供票號之後我們這邊就可以追查到那他也是就是道高一尺磨高一丈他可能就知道要檢舉那就給我相關報告好不好如何精進這兩件事還沒有辦法實名制的場館提出誘因那另外就是說有沒有辦法不需要票號就檢舉我是覺得還是要再努力一下"},{"start":405.763,"end":422.391,"text":"那另外一題 下一頁就是國家人權博物館的組織法這是我跟今天的解凍案有關的那我當時跟大家一起並動一百萬就是明明就是有第二條本館長禮威權時期相關人權檔案"},{"start":423.952,"end":443.277,"text":"等知、典藏、研究、展示及教育等所以關於政治檔案就是威權時期的人權檔案這個部分部長了解嘛所以我當時我的預算希望你們能夠針對就是當時的政治監控檔案提出研究或服務的計畫"},{"start":444.377,"end":444.517,"text":"下一页"},{"start":458.837,"end":469.201,"text":"可是你們回給我的好像是模擬兩可可救不代表要研究第三個說你們已經研究的可是你們已經研究這個是以不易移植的空間為主體的政治檔案跟我所講的是以受害者為主體的政治檔案是不太一樣的我覺得這個非常好以不易移植"},{"start":480.265,"end":496.341,"text":"是安康接待所經門歷史長旨那可是有更多的譬如說軍中的政治檔案這些其實並沒有被抓去關的或者在抓去關之前它其實也有相關的政治檔案的那這部分"},{"start":497.322,"end":517.517,"text":"那我下一頁譬如說這是你們目前有做的那我覺得第三個部分這個政治檔案解讀工作坊就非常好報名就馬上截止了馬上報滿應該要繼續辦那再下一頁那跟部長講分享一下經濟學人最近有刊出這一期都是台灣專題有一個專題是講台灣的政治檔案"},{"start":520.839,"end":539.156,"text":"他說我們的政治檔案疊起來等於是六倍的高塔就是六倍的101的高度這算起來是多少量啊所以現在我們的研究跟有知還是非常非常的少那因為國家人權博物館幾乎就是促轉會解散後非常少數能夠針對人權檔案做研究的"},{"start":545.402,"end":559.859,"text":"所以是不是能夠請人權管我知道你們的預算有些被煽動那更加積極的在你們的能夠努力的範圍內去研究政治檔案並向大眾推廣怎麼去申請使用看這些政治檔案好嗎這個部長可以答應嗎"},{"start":562.475,"end":590.451,"text":"其實我們的預算真的少到我來做才發現非常少所以他能夠做的東西包括空間的不易移植等但是研究我們會往下做好那針對我剛講的不是以移植的空間而是以受害者為核心你們可以去用訪談或者工作坊教大家怎麼做多給我們一點預算我們可以增加人力我們一定願意多給你們因為這個部分我自己看我們的預算編列這個人權管真的非常少"},{"start":590.851,"end":605.717,"text":"那如果不夠的話 部長明年也可以再自己再增加預算這個部分我覺得繼續要增加因為這次有些被刪掉了 才會有人力但是開始規劃是必要的那是不是也可以一個月內可以給我一個規劃的報告好嗎可以嗎可以嗎 對 希望我們有待做謝謝 感謝謝謝部長好 謝謝范雲委員 部長請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":646,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時43分）有請部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：范委員，你好。"],["范委員雲：部長，早安。首先，我也想針對黃牛繼續追問，林宜瑾召委也在這裡，我們從上一屆就一直在關心黃牛議題，以我個人找出黃牛議題的追蹤紀錄，從一開始質詢文化部要求解決，到擔任召委的時候辦過黃牛票的公聽會，後來我們終於排審了。當時我排審了文創法的修法、制定了黃牛條款，後來也發現還是不夠，所以又過了半年我再提出預算案以及質詢，要求文化部說明實名制的鼓勵政策，因為當時你們主張要鼓勵，還有二手票券交易平臺的規劃，到去年4月我們發現其實已經有黃牛檢舉專區，這是文化部做的，所以也不一定要再去做app，你們本來就有黃牛檢舉專區，可是我們發現檢舉門檻太高，所以我兩次都要求文化部要降低。今天我們就不用再講修法的內容，現在問題是出在這個檢舉專區的未成案比例太高，因為很多人認為要有座位號碼，所以變成要先成交，才能檢舉成功，關於這個部分，我之前的質詢就是希望你們修改檢舉黃牛專區的設計，當時你們也答應不需要先成交就可以檢舉，因為成交就更難了，為什麼超過一年你們還是沒有修正？根據你們給我們的公文，其實臺北市政府也來問過這個問題，你們有函復臺北市政府說明未成交也可以開罰，最重要的是你的相關辦法也還沒改，一個是黃牛專區，因為我們查了一下，其實你可以自己修正這個子法，就是「檢舉案件處理及獎勵辦法」裡面規範的座位號碼、入場序號，不就等於要買成這個黃牛票才能夠檢舉，這是你們明明就可以改變的部分，我發現你們沒有處理這個部分，這是我今天第一個想問的問題。","第二個，我覺得我們現在要聚焦問題，當時我們鼓勵你們做實名制，因為日本的實名制非常有名，其實也證明實名制的成效，你們給我們的報告中有95%檢舉是發生在沒有實名制的活動，所以其實只要實名制就不會有這個部分。可是我們現在看到的，譬如，周杰倫、張學友在臺北大巨蛋，以及高雄世運主場館還是有一些活動沒有實名制，你鼓勵實名制已經有一些成效，你核定的效果、目前的計畫是這樣。所以我今天很具體地想問，第一個，就實名制文化部如何繼續推動？對於這些還沒有辦法施行的，譬如，小巨蛋這一次就有推出方案，實名制可以享受活動日場租八五折，這樣不是很好嗎？主辦單位就會去考慮實名制，可是臺北大巨蛋、林口體育館還有其他的場館都還在研議，所以文化部就實名制的部分，針對未來多場大型演唱會，譬如我自己也很喜歡的孫燕姿要來了，大家都有看到新聞，能不能夠採實名制？困難在哪裡？還有我剛剛前面所講的，其實你們自己的子法要修正，還有黃牛專區平臺的修改，部長是不是可以簡要回答我？一個是實名制，目前還是有一些場館沒有辦法推動成功，部長是不是可以更積極地去推動？還有剛剛講的你們只要修正子法，拿掉那些票券等具體名稱，這兩個事情是不是可以再精進、再努力？"],["李部長遠：謝謝，其實我剛才有在前面回答過，因為我沒辦法在法律上限制要用實名制，但是我也……"],["范委員雲：對，這是用鼓勵的，我們其實都知道是要鼓勵的。"],["李部長遠：但是我們也很感謝各地方政府跟那些場館，我們開完會之後，他們也積極地儘量鼓勵要用實名制，效果的確不錯，大家可以看到增加的速度滿快的，我們也補助它。另外，他們也有獎勵，譬如實名制就打八五折，目前只有小巨蛋，這個部分我們會再來努力。"],["范委員雲：你們再精進，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["范委員雲：還有剛剛我講的修正子法的部分，還有檢舉黃牛專區的改變，是不是可以簡單說明，這是你們自己就可以做到的？"],["李部長遠：這個好像很難耶！"],["范委員雲：很難嗎？"],["李部長遠：我是不是請……"],["范委員雲：因為時間的緣故，你們去研議，可不可以一個月內再給本席相關的報告？好嗎？"],["吳司長宜璇：好的，委員如果需要報告，我們會再提供，這邊先簡單說明一下，之所以需要有這些檢舉資訊，主要是因為我必須能夠循線追查，不然其實地方政府沒有任何可以去追查的線索的時候，這些事情都沒有辦法做進一步的查證。"],["范委員雲：這樣有一個矛盾，因為你們給臺北市的公文是不需要買成票。"],["吳司長宜璇：跟委員報告，其實我們也一直在跟民眾、消費者大眾呼籲，現在網路上有非常多他宣稱他有票，但是無法提供票號或是座位號的時候，實際上他可能99.9%是詐騙，所以基本上我們不鼓勵買黃牛票。"],["范委員雲：這個矛盾是在哪裡，不用買成票就可以檢舉，可是黃牛專區卻要有詳細的票號，這個部分……"],["吳司長宜璇：沒有買成的，他其實是有跟對方詢問你是不是可以給我看你的票號，在提供票號之後，我們這邊就可以追查到那個票源。"],["范委員雲：他也是道高一尺，魔高一丈，他可能就知道要檢舉嘛！那就給我相關報告，好不好？如何精進這兩件事，還沒有辦法實名制的場館提出誘因，另外有沒有辦法不需要票號就檢舉，我覺得還是要再努力一下啦！"],["李部長遠：好。"],["范委員雲：另外一題是國家人權博物館組織法，這跟今天的解凍案有關，我當時跟大家一起併凍100萬，明明有第二條本館掌理威權時期相關人權檔案等之典藏、研究、展示及教育等業務，關於政治檔案就是威權時期的人權檔案，這部分部長了解嘛！所以我的預算希望你們能夠針對當時的政治監控檔案提出研究或服務計畫，研究是指能夠有人去研究是最好的，不管是鼓勵，或是你們的研究員；服務計畫就是也許有很多人不知道怎麼去看政治檔案、怎麼去了解，像你們有辦過的工作坊，就相當不錯嘛！可是你們回給我的好像是模棱兩可，解凍報告提到「可就……」，「可就」不代表要研究；第三個說你們已經研究了，可是你們已經研究的是以不義遺址空間為主體的政治檔案，跟我所講的以受害者為主體的政治檔案是不太一樣的，我覺得這個非常好，以不義遺址是安康接待所、金門歷史場址，可是有更多的部分，譬如說軍中的政治檔案，這些其實並沒有被抓去關的，或者在抓去關之前，他其實也有相關的政治檔案，譬如說，這是你們目前有做的，我覺得第三個部分，政治檔案解讀工作坊就非常好，報名就馬上截止、馬上爆滿，應該要繼續辦。","跟部長分享一下，經濟學人最近刊出的這一期都是臺灣專題，有一個專題是講臺灣的政治檔案，它說我們的政治檔案疊起來，等於是6倍的高塔，就是6倍101的高度，這算起來是多少量啊？現在我們的研究跟有知還是非常非常的少，因為國家人權博物館幾乎就是促轉會解散後，非常少數能夠針對人權檔案做研究的，所以是不是能夠請人權館……我知道你們的預算有些被刪凍，在你們能夠努力的範圍內，更加積極地去研究政治檔案，並向大眾推廣怎麼去申請使用、閱覽這些政治檔案，好嗎？這個部長可以答應嗎？"],["李部長遠：其實我們的預算真的很少，我來之後才發現非常少，所以他們能夠做的東西，包括空間的不義遺址等，但是研究我們會往下做，所以……"],["范委員雲：好。針對我剛剛講的，不是以遺址空間，而是以受害者為核心……"],["李部長遠：受害者，對！"],["范委員雲：你們可以用訪談或是工作坊繼續辦，教大家怎麼做，好不好？"],["李部長遠：這個部分請多給我們一點預算，我們可以增加人力。"],["范委員雲：我們一定願意多給你們。"],["李部長遠：因為這個部分我自己看我們的預算編列，人權館真的非常少。"],["范委員雲：如果不夠的話，部長，明年也可以自己再增加預算，好不好？"],["李部長遠：對、對！這個部分我覺得的確要增加預算，才會有人力。"],["范委員雲：因為這次有些被刪掉了，我知道。好，但是開始規劃是必要的，是不是一個月內可以給我一份規劃的報告，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：好，OK。"],["范委員雲：可以嗎？好，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：其實我們有在做，謝謝。"],["范委員雲：謝謝召委，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，部長請回。","接下來要處理解凍專案報告案，我們先休息3分鐘。","休息（11時53分）","繼續開會（11時58分）"],["主席：各位同仁，現在開始開會。","我們現在來處理解凍專案報告案第一案至第二十案，請議事人員宣讀。","現場請安靜，也請文化部同仁是不是回座？"],["主席：好，我們一案一案處理。第一案凍結20%、2,047萬5,000元……"],["柯委員志恩：你現在是處理專案的解凍，是不是？"],["主席：對、對！剛剛宣讀完了。"],["柯委員志恩：有二十案……"],["主席：第一案，大家有沒有意見？柯委員，第一案？（無）沒有意見，就准予動支，提報院會。","第二案是凍結30%、2億3,208萬元，第二案有沒有什麼意見？好，我們請柯志恩委員，再來請萬美玲委員。"],["柯委員志恩：好，因為第二案，我說現在預算的解凍真的是包山包海，第二案大家比較關切的，剛剛也有很多委員質詢，就是有關於黃牛票的這個部分，我當然也問了文化部，也給我一些檢舉案的資料，謝謝文化部，但我還是要講，還是沒有辦法告訴我對於黃牛的猖狂，到底文化部有沒有比較積極的作法？雖然你條列了非常多像檢舉數等等之類的資料，我也看了，但我還是要提出，這兩個樣態有關於加價轉售的案件當中，抱歉，成案率只有26%，而且裁罰率大概只有6%而已，這個東西還是沒有太大的改進。有關於你說的不正方法的案件，像什麼機器人等等這些更慘，成案率只有2%，起訴率大概也只有7%，所以對於文化部給本席的回應，好像還是沒有達到在我們當初要凍結時，希望你們能夠拿出一個更積極的作法，所以這個部分，我們還是要再請文化部是否可以給我們更正向的回應，好不好？因為這個回應還是沒有辦法釐清當初我們凍結理由上面的疑慮。"],["主席：好，這個案子好像是TaiwanPlus的案！第二案。"],["柯委員志恩：有啊！都有包含在裡面，TaiwanPlus也有，這裡面都有。"],["主席：好，不好意思。"],["柯委員志恩：都有，它裡面包山包海。"],["主席：好，理解錯誤。","我們再來請萬美玲委員。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝召委。我想徵求召委的同意，等一下針對第二案、第三案跟第七案其實是跟它相關的，我同時講一下，因為第二案、第三案跟第七案，我想召委應該也知道。"],["主席：好！"],["萬委員美玲：第一個，我們針對公視及TaiwanPlus的預算凍結案，我們可以看到文化部提出來的報告其實很多，那裡面也列舉了，不管是在公視主頻，還有小公視或者是台語台，在過去有很多很豐碩的成果，包括了金馬獎或者影展得獎作品等等，我想我們都相當的肯定，但是這一些其實大概都是過去我們拍攝的成果，我們報告上比較聚焦的可能是過去的一些榮光，但是我們更希望可以看到的是我們對於未來的精進以及相關的檢討能不能更仔細、更詳細。","這份報告其實本席很仔細地看過，我們對於未來規劃的描述上面，我覺得還是略顯薄弱，針對這次解凍案，最關鍵在公視的新聞及節目製作上面的相關成效，還有我們在委員會審查，那時候提出來的很多的問題，文化部雖然有大概提到，我希望還有在三個比較核心的問題上面，能夠得到更明確的答復。","第一個就是TaiwanPlus，我們在歐美地區低觀看率的部分還有內容定位的問題，我們是不是已經完成了觀眾需求調查還有策略的調整？尤其是我們現在看到了美國關稅政策的衝擊，會不會有一些其他的變化？再來，我們看到我們的影劇產業透過TaiwanPlus的播出，會不會也有相關的課稅、有沒有一些影響，這些能不能夠再說得更仔細一點？","第二個部分是我們的新聞內容，曾經因為一些新聞節目事件，可能有一些立場比較偏頗的部分，有影響到我國一些相關的形象，我們也要求公視要能夠強化新聞編採的標準跟內控的機制，但我們還沒有看到，尤其是文化部有提到，我們的作法就是要加強教育訓練，延攬臺籍主編加入，來研議、制定國際新聞製播的一個準則專章，可是本席在看的時候，還是沒有看到我們到底要怎麼強化公視的節目暨新聞自律委員會對於新聞製播要如何確保客觀性跟中立性的一個方案。另外，文化部提到國際新聞製播準則要有相關的研擬，這個進度是什麼？什麼時候可以完成？這個部分也希望文化部能夠再說清楚一些。","第三個，我們看到我們在預算執行透明度跟責任的機制上面仍顯不足，能夠看到TaiwanPlus歷年的預算是非常龐大的，可是相關的資金分配還有我們內容採購的流程以及成效的評估等等，其資訊公開是不足的，過去都是看到公視的一個董事會，外界其實難以全面地了解跟監督，現在報告上有說要把年度報告放在公共電視的官方網站當中，在年報跟訊息的專區，想要充分地去公開具體的成果，我必須要請教一下部長，我們實際到底會揭露哪些內容及怎麼揭露？還有，過去TaiwanPlus的KPI指標修訂，我們把下載數改成觀看數跟滿意度，我想是不是可以建議我們應該要主動建立定期可供查核的制度以及公開這個平臺的流量，還有觀眾分析的相關數據，也就是說，我們可不可以把今天你所提出來的一個大方向更加的落實起來？我們的預算其實是人民納稅錢，我們要嚴格的監督並落實執行，這個是最重要的，所以在這裡我也特別提出來，今天這些解凍案，我想今天文化部提出了很詳細的說明，我們也很仔細地去了解，原則上我們都是支持，但我希望能不能在解凍的這個部分，即我剛剛提到那幾項，我們請文化部督促公視在3個月內可以完成對外公布關於我們提到的國際新聞製播準則，而且能夠針對TaiwanPlus的國際行銷成效還有收視表現跟觀眾……","我們是不是可以稍微那個……？謝謝，因為我怕部長聽不太聽清楚我們現在跟他提的要求，所以拜託各位同仁一下，謝謝你們。","最重要的是這一點，我們請文化部督促公視在3個月內完成對外公布國際新聞製播準則，這個很重要，因為也是文化部提的。另外，能夠針對TaiwanPlus國際行銷的成效、收視表現還有觀眾輪廓進一步來做評估，讓我們的委員會能夠更清楚知道，這個補充報告麻煩文化部在3個月之內能夠把它提出來，以上等一下請文化部回答，謝謝。"],["柯委員志恩：等一下，我們現在是一案還是？"],["主席：我想是一案、一案，是因為萬美玲委員說他一併把第二案、第三案、第七案一起講，等於他第三案跟第七案基本上就不發言了，是這個意思。好，現在還是第二案，好不好？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：第二案。"],["主席：關於第二案，請伍麗華委員、劉書彬委員、柯志恩委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主席。針對第二案，我其實也有收看這個TaiwanPlus，我之前質詢的時候也有提過，因為我們都知道TaiwanPlus標榜要掌握國際話語權，向世界傳播臺灣的觀點，但是我經常看到裡頭的一些內容，例如像原住民小朋友穿著族服喝珍奶講華語，那我想華語怎麼說，全世界很多人都聽得出來，但是當臺灣的原住民小朋友穿著族服講著華語，它其實是把原住民的文化當作是客體，而不是一個主體，所以在這個部分，我想要請文化部具體的說明一下，一旦涉及到不同的族群文化跟族群語言的這種內容，未來會怎麼去強化它的品質，然後尊重族群的主體性？讓我們在跟世界發聲的時候，能夠去傳達一種正確的臺灣觀點，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請劉書彬委員。"],["劉委員書彬：謝謝召委。早上的詢答當中已經有提到黃牛票採實名制這一部分有一些成果，但是在沒有採取實名制的活動，影視藝文這一部分的情況卻有8,000件檢舉，文化部部長也提到人力是否足夠是一個很大的問題，然後警察機關配合這部分，它也承認這是很大很大的問題，它覺得包括後來定罪等等的，都是曠日費時，等於文化部認為這是一個很大的、人力沒辦法支應的狀況，可是文化部卻沒有對於怎麼樣再去處理這些部分……尤其是目前只有說80場是針對有實名制的部分，可是可能還有上百場沒有實名制的情況，產生8,000件檢舉。","因此本席要詢問的是，針對文化部在檢舉案件上面的處理，我覺得應該要做更深度的、有些時程上面的一些回應，不然的話，其實這個部分其實會造成更多的問題出現。"],["主席：謝謝。再來請柯志恩委員。"],["柯委員志恩：對，因為我剛剛特別提到，第二案真的是包山包海，既然是扯到TaiwanPlus，那我們當然就把有關TaiwanPlus的部分稍微提出來，第三案其實跟這個也都是有關係的，誠如我上次所提到的，但是我覺得在這一次的解凍當中，並沒有針對我的問題提出我希望能夠得到的答案，希望利用這次的機會，像我上次就特別提到了，很多內部的檢舉說它完全是高於市價的外包製作費，節目部都是外包，成本高的驚人，這一塊我不曉得TaiwanPlus的相關單位有沒有要來做一個澄清？","還有我上次也特別提到，因為去年度的預算花不完，但113年度的預算還剩下一億多，還跟文化部有做預算延約的程序，也就是說，你還有半年要處理去年花不完的錢，然後你現在又告訴我們還要更多的，這樣一個預算的控管、管理的部分，在給我的回應上面，顯然沒有讓我得到某種程度的澄清。所以我個人覺得，還有包括上一次內部檢舉的信函當中，我比較遺憾的是，經過這麼久的時間，在質詢臺上問的這些問題，我都沒有得到立即的回應，我想利用這次解凍案的機會，請文化部一併來說明，謝謝。"],["主席：好，如果其他委員沒有意見的話，就請文化部來回答，請部長。"],["李部長遠：剛剛萬委員提到3個月內公布國際新聞製播準則還有國際成效，這些我已經問過TaiwanPlus，他們說他們可以做到。剛剛提到其他的問題，我是不是請TaiwanPlus來回答？"],["主席：好，請胡董事長嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：謝謝委員指教。關於TaiwanPlus改革的部分，事實上，剛剛5月份的董事會才經過深入的討論，奠基於前面，我們有一個3人小組的調查案，提出這個調查報告之後，經過TaiwanPlus提出改善方案，一共有四項，董事會同時也通過了一些相關的決議，希望能夠貫徹新階段的改革，這所有的資料我們都可以提供。至於在方向上，基本上是包括媒體定位、內容策略、新聞資源跟主管遴聘，這些東西我們都已經提出一些改革方案，希望在未來三個月內能夠初步落實，跟委員做個說明，如果需要這些資料，我們都可以提供。"],["柯委員志恩：你是在回應萬美玲委員跟我的問題嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：是，有關於其中的一部分，也關於您剛才提到有一部分內部的組織還有同仁提出檢舉等等的相關事項。"],["柯委員志恩：現在已經有了，對不對？"],["胡董事長元輝：對。"],["柯委員志恩：可以立即給我？"],["胡董事長元輝：就是本月份的董事會通過，可以立即給你，沒有問題。"],["柯委員志恩：可以立即給我？董事長，你們可以立即給我，為什麼要我提出來你們才給我？在這次解凍案之前就應該先給我們。"],["胡董事長元輝：因為是這個月的董事會才通過，所以現在才有這個資料。"],["柯委員志恩：你們這個月的董事會是什麼時候開？"],["胡董事長元輝：5月的……"],["柯委員志恩：今天是5月7號。"],["胡董事長元輝：對不起，是4月的董事會。"],["柯委員志恩：是啊！4月董事會，今天是5月7號。"],["胡董事長元輝：我們董事會的會議紀錄還要經過每一位董事的確認，它有一個流程，最後還要報文化部。"],["柯委員志恩：這個是我上次在質詢臺上面，然後這就是解凍案的一個先決條件，也就是說，我如果今天坐在這個地方不提出這個部分，你們4月份開完董事會，我現在不提出來，你就不會給我了嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：不會啊！我們這些東西還沒有經過……我剛剛已經報告過，它有一個process，這個流程還沒經過……我們會正式對外公開的。"],["柯委員志恩：我還要make sure這裡面包含我剛剛所提到的，有關於外包的製作費、有關於113年剩1億的預算延約，這些都可以在你要給我的報告當中？都會有清楚的呈現，是不是？"],["胡董事長元輝：沒有，有關於您所謂的外包製作費部分，我們現在馬上就可以做個說明。但有一個部分，您剛才提到延續的部分，其實公廣集團的其他單位也都常常有一些預算，因為這是影視製作裡面所發生的一個問題，它不可能在所有的流程都能夠確定的掌握，所以在處理上它都有一些預算要保留到未來，所以它不是一個唯一的狀況，當然TaiwanPlus這一次的數字是比較大，原因是什麼，我們請執行長可以很快地解說一下。"],["柯委員志恩：好，麻煩。"],["余執行長佳璋：跟委員很快地報告，您上次有提到跟國際合作，像是Discovery，最主要是因為在TaiwanPlus成立第一年的時候還沒有在國外落地，在TaiwanPlus還沒有落地之前要委託Discovery來播映，就需要當地落地的費用以及當地channel的費用，因此第一年費用比較高的原因是在這裡，第二年之後我們就減了，變成七成的比例，因為我們可以自行落地，第三年就沒有再繼續合作，這是第一件事情。第二個，有關您提到預算沒有完全用完的部分，是因為去年我們跟文化部申請到獲得的是只有7到12月，也就是去年只有6個月的製作期，所以6個月製作期，在6個月簽約以後，跟日本、韓國啟動國際合作的簽約花了大概兩、三個月才成案，所以這一億多大概其中大部分是包含跟日本、韓國、新加坡以及跟歐洲的丹麥、德國合作的費用，所以它negotiate的談判期會比較長，今年6月以前都會完成。"],["柯委員志恩：6月以前都會完成？"],["余執行長佳璋：是。"],["柯委員志恩：我先承接你剛解釋Discovery的部分，你說第一年大家付出的成本比較高，第二年就會變成七成，然後你說第三年怎麼樣？"],["余執行長佳璋：我們就沒有再合作續辦，因為我們可以自己自製或者做其他的節目來替代，所以第三年……"],["柯委員志恩：所以兩年還是花6,000萬，到目前為止，你覺得這個部分應該是合理的嗎？"],["余執行長佳璋：因為第一年真的是比較高，因為它含在Discovery的頻道，我們在東南亞地區一共大概有6個國家播映，這個費用他們有依照Discovery的報價，這報價都經過公共電視的採購合法計價。"],["柯委員志恩：所以你應該告訴我們，你們因為有了6,000萬的投資，因此第三年開始就可以有辦法自製了，是這樣的概念嗎？"],["余執行長佳璋：對，相關類似主題我們可以自己來處理，就沒有再委託Discovery了。"],["柯委員志恩：好，OK，兩年6,000萬這個部分，好。"],["余執行長佳璋：因為它東南亞的上架費，依照它的報價，再經過議價程序，我們依法再跟它……"],["柯委員志恩：你認為這樣的支出還是合理的？"],["余執行長佳璋：其實國際媒體的價格是有一定的行情，我們就依照它的報價來處理。"],["柯委員志恩：好。"],["主席：如果沒有其他委員有問題的話，是不是第二案就准予動支，提報院會？好。","現在處理第三案，第三案也是TaiwanPlus，還有公共電視的一些預算，凍結25%，5億7,151萬2,000元，委員對這一案有沒有意見？"],["范委員雲：沒有，陳玉珍又沒來。"],["主席：好，我們請吳沛憶委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：第三案在我們報告當中是第307頁，是不是？這個因為我剛質詢的時候有提到，當初的提案人是陳玉珍委員、國民黨的黨團，然後這個提案的理由是講TaiwanPlus，但是其實這一筆預算的項目是公視的業務，所以你看後面文化部提供的報告說明都是關於公視的業務內容，因為有很多國人都很關切，所以我還是希望可以請……如果提案委員不在，國民黨黨團的委員是不是可以來協助說明一下這當初的提案理由是不是有錯置？"],["柯委員志恩：沒有。"],["吳委員沛憶：如果有錯置的話，我覺得應該要去說明，不然這樣是浪費大家的時間，其實今天不需要做這一案的專案報告，因為這個裡面的內容根本跟TaiwanPlus無關，結果我們竟然在這邊看這個凍結預算理由跟業務內容完全不搭嘎的東西，就浪費大家時間，所以我還是希望可以說明清楚，有沒有國民黨的委員可以協助說明呢？"],["柯委員志恩：不好意思，你們很多民進黨黨團提出來的也不見得民進……因為你不是屬於我們教文的委員，也不是每一個黨團提出來，你們每一個委員都可以回應，對這個問題來說，我覺得沛憶委員不需要直指國民黨黨團的人，因為對於第三案來說，我想第三案……"],["范委員雲：舉手表決啊！"],["柯委員志恩：第三案舉手表決？但是基本上裡面一些內容的部分，我還是講，你要我們來做這個部分的說明，我想陳玉珍委員當初是提案人，他沒有過來，很顯然他也看到公視給予他這樣的一個回應，他沒有意見，請問我們個人還需要再做出什麼樣的部分嗎？你好像直指我們必須要做出什麼樣的回應。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有，舉手表決的都有宣讀內容，不是嗎？"],["柯委員志恩：有需要這樣子的必要嗎？好，我們是不是hold住，等陳玉珍委員過來的時候，我們再來看看這案是不是要解凍？我覺得這也是一種方法。"],["范委員雲：我想這邊我個人要表達……"],["柯委員志恩：如果要這樣子的話，我們是不是就請當初的提案委員過來……"],["范委員雲：譴責陳玉珍委員……"],["柯委員志恩：我們就先hold在這邊嘛！"],["范委員雲：亂刪、亂凍，然後今天又不在現場。"],["柯委員志恩：對不起，如果是這樣的話，第三案就暫時……"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有，我對於解凍是沒有意見，但是我還是認為必須要表達清楚，因為事實上這一案今天是不應該來這裡進行解凍專案報告的，因為當初提案的理由根本跟這個業務內容無關啊！"],["柯委員志恩：如果是這樣子，我們尊重當初的提案委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們當然不必代當時的提案委員來回答。"],["柯委員志恩：當然是啊！"],["吳委員沛憶：但是我希望大家可以了解清楚我們現在……因為我們不應該就是大家很鄉愿地坐在這邊，假裝沒有這件事啊！因為文化部提供的公視內容根本跟當初委員的凍結理由是不同的啊！"],["柯委員志恩：我個人……"],["吳委員沛憶：我要講的時候必須指出來。"],["柯委員志恩：好吧！是不是黨團請陳玉珍委員過來？我們就暫時hold住，如果是要這樣子，你們剛剛也特別提到不需要其他委員代為回答，的確這是委員會審查的機制……"],["吳委員沛憶：我尊重，我並不是要請委員代為回答，但是我就是表達我的意見、表達我的陳述，這樣可以留下一個紀錄。"],["柯委員志恩：沒有問題，但是你剛剛也特別提到。國民黨黨團要代表來回應，我們目前的提案，黨團可以代表回應的就是陳玉珍委員，是不是這一案就暫時hold住？這麼大的部分大家有意見，那就呼叫陳玉珍委員過來吧！等他過來，我們就暫時hold住。主席，你裁示吧！"],["主席：好啦！我們先請范雲委員發言。"],["范委員雲：我真的覺得我們已經為了陳玉珍委員浪費很多的時間，現在解凍非常的重要，但是我要講一下，陳玉珍委員一個人是沒有辦法讓一個預算的提案通過，是當天藍白都一起投票，所以大家都有責任。我想剛剛吳沛憶委員是要表達很大的不滿跟譴責，我們不想浪費時間，我們繼續下去，這個東西都有會議紀錄，也希望大家可以廣為告知。我要再次提醒，他的提案如果沒有藍白的支持跟舉手是不會通過的。"],["主席：好，我想吳沛憶委員很明顯就是對於當初的提案委員要做一些譴責跟不滿，沒關係，我們就是實際上解決問題，今天就是要針對第三案來解凍。請萬美玲委員。"],["萬委員美玲：我來補充一下，因為我們委員會在審查文化部預算的時候，我也是召委，我們花了很多的時間，不管是國民黨的委員或者是民進黨的委員或者是當時民眾黨的委員，我們對於每一筆、每一筆的預算都盡我們的職責，我們看得很清楚，也問得很詳細。每一個我們有刪除的預算或有凍結的預算，其實當時文化部也都接受，所以從過去到現在，大家在教育及文化委員會非常非常久，幾乎都是很久，我們其實都很認真在做……"],["吳委員沛憶：院會……"],["萬委員美玲：我在發言，我們互相尊重一下，因為教育及文化委員會向來真的彼此都非常尊重。我也很贊成剛才召委所講的，今天召委排案其實很清楚就是針對解凍案，而且我必須要講，在各部會，我們對於文化部的解凍案也是第一個出來做的，針對過去小野部長，也就是李遠部長所提的一些窒礙難行的地方，我們馬上重新來審視，今天我們應該要趕快針對解凍案的部分來看一看你們提出來的報告跟說明，看我們教育及文化委員會所有認真的委員能不能接受，有沒有什麼地方是要再良性的告訴他們說：提出來的地方可能還不夠，什麼地方要仔細再看。如果是沒有問題的，我們就把它解凍掉，這也是過去這麼多屆、這麼多年，教育及文化委員會一直以來做的就是這樣的事情，我想沒有人要刻意去刁難。當然大家對於事情的看法有不同的情緒跟表達，我都是充分尊重，但我建議召委是不是能夠回到預算解凍的部分來做。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，那我們就實際來處理這個案子。柯志恩委員，這樣子的話，第三案如果沒有其他委員有其他意見，那文化部是不是要回復？"],["李部長遠：沒有……"],["主席：你們沒有要回復，因為剛剛針對TaiwanPlus也回復的差不多了，如果對第三案沒有意見的話，我們就准予動支，提報院會。","現在來進行第四案。第四案是凍結50%，凍結1億2,826萬6,000元，這個案子是工藝中心業務費的凍結，有沒有委員有什麼意見？沒有的話，這個案子就准予動支，提報院會。","接下來進行第五案，第五案是凍結30%，凍結了5,788萬4,000元，那是有關於人權館的相關預算，有沒有什麼問題？"],["張委員雅琳：沒有。"],["主席：好，第五案准予動支，提報院會。","進行第六案。第六案也是關於人權館的問題，有沒有委員有意見？第六案是凍結300萬元。"],["張委員雅琳：沒有。"],["主席：好，謝謝。那我們就准予動支，提報院會。","第七案。第七案凍結了5,000萬元，是我們委員會的。"],["柯委員志恩：對不起，針對第七案，剛剛胡董事長已經跟我解釋，因為我在質詢臺上不斷提到對於新創公司的意見，雖然它不在預算當中，但那也是文化部撥款給公視，麻煩請你們在成案之後，未來在公視董事會成立完之後，是否可以把你們更細節的問題再交一份報告給本委員會，可以嗎？針對第七案的部分。雖然你剛剛已經跟我解釋過了，但你說很多東西現在沒有辦法，要在你們公視董事會成立完之後，你是不是可以給我們一個更細節的部分，可以嗎？"],["主席：OK嗎？第七案是有關於影視及流行音樂的業務。"],["李部長遠：可以。"],["柯委員志恩：可以嘛！通過之後就給本席一份更細節的部分，好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，藉由這個案子，我也提醒一下，有關於華視資產活化的問題，我想針對這個問題，其實部長也對這個事情有很大的想法，但是我想這應該是要好好的再進一步思考那個資產要怎麼樣去處理，看是不是要買回民股或者資產要怎麼樣活化，我想這應該要在你的任內來解決這個問題，不能就這樣放著不管，部長，OK？好，第七案如果沒有意見，我們就准予動支，提報院會。","第八案。第八案是凍結5,000萬元，有關於傳藝中心，有沒有意見？好，如果沒有意見的話，我們就准予動支，提報院會。","第九案。第九案凍結了30%，凍結8億6,607萬6,000元，是文化部全部的業務費，一共是八億多。好，有沒有委員有什麼意見？第九案。"],["陳委員秀寳：沒有。"],["主席：好，文化部的業務費就解凍，准予動支，提報院會。","第十案。第十案凍結了1億2,730萬6,000元，第十案有沒有意見？"],["陳委員秀寳：沒有。"],["主席：好，沒有意見。第十案是公共藝術經費，沒有意見的話，我們就准予動支，提報院會。","第十一案。第十一案凍結了30%，凍結了2億3,841萬4,000元，是有關於文資局的相關預算，有沒有意見？沒有意見，我們就准予動支，提報院會。","第十二案。凍結30%，凍結了1億7,250萬。第十二案是傳藝中心業務費，沒有意見，我們就准予動支，提報院會。","第十三案。凍結了1億1,357萬5,000元，是有關於國美館業務費，沒有意見，我們就准予動支，提報院會。","第十四案。凍結了1,000萬元，這個好像是我們委員會的，第十四案。"],["柯委員志恩：我有意見。"],["主席：好，請柯志恩委員。"],["柯委員志恩：因為這是委員會的部分，我不是說要如何，我只是希望……因為部長當初也特別提到了，一次12塊，你自己是一個受害者，對不對？部長還記得我們之間的對話吧，那我還是要了解到底明年在電子書的部分要怎麼去做？我們第一次質詢的時候就希望部長能夠跟出版業者來辦一個座談，我不知道部長到底跟他們談了沒有？你到底舉辦了多少場？有多少出版社來參與？因為這個案子最主要的目的是要擴大閱讀，但不代表其中隱藏的問題可以不用去改善，所以我覺得一次12元看起來已經沒有辦法撼動文化部的政策，但我還是希望文化部能夠提出一個比較有效的輔導策略，可以增加出版業的收入，因為出版業真的是寒冬，出版業真的賺得非常的卑微，這是我要特別提出呼籲的。還有，有些時候你們在補助當中，很多中小型而且有很有特色且很努力的出版社好像拿不到這些補助，對他們來說也是非常辛苦的，所以我們只希望在文化產業上真的是……雖然已經沒有辦法拿到很多，你現在告訴我，你們已經增加了133萬，好像增加了9.6%，但是家數也增加了9家，所以沒有辦法拿到更多的補助，因為加入了新的出版社，這就變成粥增多但是和尚更多嘛，這個部分沒有辦法讓出版社在文化產業裡面有很多的貢獻，對於這個部分，在你們給我的回應當中，我需要有一個更具體的層面，特別是在電子書層面。現在蘇巧慧坐在這邊，我想到在第9屆的時候，我們曾經為了出版業著力很多，你有沒有發現，第11屆坐在這邊講的也是同樣的問題，好不好？請你發表一下，也要請文化部多多努力一下，為什麼我們第9屆講的事情到了第11屆講還是講得一模一樣，你有沒有發現？不然你坐在這邊幹嘛？不讓你發表一下好像也對你說不太過去。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我是在等……"],["主席：他在等待臨時提案。"],["柯委員志恩：你還有便當可以吃，我們都還沒有。"],["主席：好，文化部要不要回復柯志恩委員的問題？"],["李部長遠：我要現場回復還是提供書面資料？"],["柯委員志恩：你可以先回答一下，然後細節部分給我書面資料，因為我覺得出版業真的是相當相當的辛苦，好不好？我知道你有更細節的可以提供，但是你現在有什麼問題可以趁這個時間也稍微說一下，因為都有會議紀錄的。"],["李部長遠：我沒什麼問題，我只是努力，其實我們今年所有的補助策略只有增加、沒有減少。對於出版業本身的感受，我覺得這一、兩年我們給他們的活動費還有補助是更好的，至於你說它是寒冬，那是整個出版業都一直在往下滑，跟電影一樣，但是我們有在努力，從去年到今年的補助是增加的，我們是不是請次長報告一下？"],["柯委員志恩：細節提供書面報告就好了。"],["李部長遠：好。"],["主席：好，劉書彬委員要發言。"],["劉委員書彬：好，關於這一案，因為國家語言政策要凍結的理由是希望跟國科會密切合作，充實TAIDE模型資料庫跟國家語言的應用，目前我想要了解一下，我知道國科會在開發這樣的資料庫，而且我們實際去參訪時有看到，你們可以提出來，目前國家語言研究中心跟國科會的合作是什麼情況嗎？請簡單說明一下，因為好像在運用方面並沒有被推廣。"],["李部長遠：這個中心還沒有成立，因為法案還在立法院，所以中心還沒有成立……"],["劉委員書彬：為什麼會寫……所以是如何整合？"],["李部長遠：我們有編預算在做。"],["劉委員書彬：這個中心現在還沒有成立？"],["李部長遠：案子已經送到立法院，但還沒有審。"],["劉委員書彬：還沒有審？但為什麼……"],["李部長遠：這個中心一旦設立起來，會是一個滿大的組織。"],["劉委員書彬：好，所以立法院的教文委員會可能要排進議程來討論，這樣才有可能成立？"],["主席：對，沒錯，我們要跟司法及法制委員會聯席。"],["劉委員書彬：那就請兩位召委幫忙我們的語言教育，我發覺該中心其實還滿重視原住民語言，這是一件好事。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","如果第十四案沒有意見的話，我們就准予動支，提報院會。","第十五案。第十五案是凍結1,500萬元，有關綜合規劃業務對國內團體的獎補助被凍結。這個案子有沒有意見？沒有意見，我們就准予動支，提報院會。","第十六案。第十六案凍結100萬元，文化資源業務。沒有意見的話，我們就准予動支，提報院會。","第十七案。凍結30%，1億2,410萬8,000元，有關影視局業務費，有沒有意見？沒有意見，第十七案准予動支，提報院會。","第十八案。有關於國立臺灣博物館，凍結30%，6,705萬元，有沒有意見？沒有意見，准予動支，提報院會。","第十九案。有關於國立臺灣史前文化博物館，凍結30%，5,455萬2,000元，沒有意見的話就准予動支，提報院會。","第二十案。臺灣文學館凍結30%，5,216萬2,000元，沒有意見的話就准予動支……"],["范委員雲：莫名其妙凍結業務費！"],["主席：謝謝各位，凍結案處理完畢。","接著處理臨時提案，今天有兩案，請宣讀。","一、","鑑於近期泰國藝人LINGORM來台舉辦之見面會引發嚴重黃牛票爭議，引發社會廣泛關注。然文化部對此回應指出，依「文化創意產業發展法」之規定，所謂藝文表演票券係指「音樂、戲劇、舞蹈或其他形式之現場藝文表演」，並未將「見面會」、「握手會」等偶像與粉絲互動性質之活動納入範疇，致使此類票券無法受到本法第十條之一針對黃牛票行為之規範。","惟實際目前見面會與握手會活動形式多元，常態包含歌唱、舞蹈、談話與舞台互動等現場表演內容，其本質應屬於藝文演出之一環。若以現行定義排除是類演出，不僅無法有效遏止此等活動黃牛現象，亦與現行藝文產業脫節，恐使法律出現漏洞，因而影響臺灣消費者權益。","爰此，請文化部儘速研議「文化創意產業發展法」第十條之一，明確將見面會、握手會等活動形式納入「藝文表演」定義之範疇，使相關票券之交易與轉售行為得以依法管理，並強化藝文演出市場秩序與觀眾權益保障。","提案人：張雅琳　　黃　捷　　吳沛憶　　蘇巧慧　　陳秀寳　　伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe　　　　林宜瑾　　范　雲　　","二、","「文化創意產業發展法」修正條文於去年五月修正通過，其中特別因應社會事件以及產業變化通過了「打擊黃牛」以及「投資內容產業應享有租稅優惠」的相關條文。其中本法有關打擊黃牛之立法條文第10條之1已於2023年6月2日施行，然近期卻出現貴部對於「藝文表演」的僵固解釋，認為粉絲見面會之形式非「文化創意產業發展法」所規範之範圍。然藝文表演形式眾多，粉絲見面會、脫口秀、音樂會等皆為形式之一，因此建請貴部認定藝文表演時，應以是否有售票之行為為認定基準，並積極打擊黃牛票券，確保藝文表演票券正常流通。","提案人：蘇巧慧　　吳沛憶　　黃　捷　　林宜瑾　　陳秀寳　　范　雲　　張雅琳　　"],["主席：我們現在處理第1案。第1案提案人是張雅琳委員，要不要提案說明一下？"],["張委員雅琳：好。最主要就是現在見面會的場次非常、非常多，而且是年年增加，所以大家也可以非常清楚看到炒作見面會的黃牛票問題。就藝文表演而言，文化部不認為見面會是藝文表演，但其實在許多見面會裡都有許多表演，不管是歌唱、音樂、戲劇等等，換句話說，作為一個演員跟粉絲互動的一些方式，就是透過這些表演形式呈現，所以我還是希望文化部可以把這件事納入，否則等於讓黃牛有機可趁，這是個很大的漏洞。"],["主席：請黃捷委員。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝，我補充說明一下。大家都知道現在見面會、牽手會的表演形式非常多元，甚至買票時並不知道現場會有什麼表演，可能是包裝在驚喜裡面，可能現場會有舞蹈、歌唱或更多元形式的表演for粉絲，如果現在不放進去的話，屆時黃牛將猖獗到無法處理，也無法符合當初修文創法的意旨。再者，如果你們是事後才認定，請問粉絲是要先買黃牛票，到時候由你們認定了再來救濟嗎？當事情已經在發生了，到底要怎麼處理？到底是鼓勵粉絲事後檢舉，還是事前就不要買？若事前不要買，難道粉絲都不能去參加見面會，也不能參加握手會、簽名會嗎？是不是可以給大家一個指引？所以我具體建議，既然表演形式非常多元，是不是就把見面會、握手會這種只要有售票的藝文表演，一旦有轉售加價的行為都納入黃牛開罰範圍？"],["主席：第1案跟第2案的內容基本上是一樣的，所以我們就一併討論，好不好？我們先請第2案提案的蘇巧慧委員，再來是范雲委員。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝主席。主席英明，我就是覺得兩案乾脆一起說就好了。今天不管是張雅琳委員的提案或我的提案，其實兩案簽名的委員幾乎是一樣的，代表了蘇巧慧、吳沛憶、黃捷、林宜瑾、陳秀寳這幾位委員，都認為現在的藝文表演活動形式非常多，甚至有新增的，包括粉絲見面會、握手會，甚至脫口秀、音樂會，都是藝文表演活動的形式之一。今天我們跟文化部討論及爭執的點在於，在處理社會上大家所厭惡的黃牛行為時，我們是立了文創法來規範，但該法到底能不能包含這麼多元類型的活動？爭點就是：我們認為它是藝文活動，而且是表演活動，應該屬於文創法所規範的項目，是會被處理的黃牛行為。可是文化部舉第十條之一的立法理由來跟委員們討論辯證說，當時對所謂的表演活動時有明確規定，並以第二項為例，本條所稱藝文表演票券，指針對現場演出之音樂、戲劇、舞蹈。所以如果一場表演裡面沒有音樂、戲劇、舞蹈，就不算表演，我覺得這是非常荒謬的說法，為什麼呢？因為當時第十條之一的立法理由，其實在音樂、戲劇、舞蹈的後面，就有「或其他形式」四個字啊，白紙黑字，其他形式之藝文表演活動。","然後，我們再看一下第三項、第四項當時的立法理由，清清楚楚地說，鑑於文化創意產業之蓬勃發展，相關藝文活動日趨興盛，逐漸成為人民生活不可分割的一部分，因此，針對藝文活動的票券，政府應建立健全的市場機制，以促進文化產業之發展，及保障民眾近用文化的權利，這就是本法規訂立的目的啊。所以，我們的定義、我們的目的是這樣，然後我們的第四項，甚至是考量以高價轉售藝文票券牟暴利的行為，嚴重傷害消費者合理票價參與藝文活動權益，我們的立法目的是這樣，當時在立法的時候，以列舉的方式，把音樂、戲劇、舞蹈列在其中，然後後面還加了一個概括的「或其他形式」，怎麼會今天用立法理由的三項列舉來把其他的新興項目排除在外呢？這真的是非常荒謬的理由。","而且我說實在的，剛剛如果舉例今年什麼2月玄彬見面會，然後2,000元，這個因為他只有握手、簽名，所以就不算表演。各位，有人會相信，玄彬站到那個舞臺上不是表演嗎？玄彬的一舉一動，穿什麼衣服、笑不笑，其實跟粉絲的眨眼都是表演啊，怎麼會有人認為這不是表演呢？好，那你再說，如果你真的認定他不是表演，你說那他就不能用文創產業來罰，如果玄彬這張2,000塊的票變成是2萬塊錢了，請問你要用什麼來罰？用社維法嗎？你不覺得這很荒謬嗎？所以今天我們這些委員在這裡跟你討論的是，現在社會上有非常多元形式的藝文活動，正是應該用當時第十條之一立法理由裡面的「或其他形式」，被列入在該法規管轄範圍之內，以遏止社會上大家痛恨的黃牛行為，就這麼簡單而已，我不曉得文化部在抗拒什麼。"],["主席：再來，我們請范雲委員。"],["范委員雲：剛剛蘇巧慧委員已經說明得非常清楚了，我想當時我們為什麼會有這個第十條之一，就是希望處理大家近用這些表演活動的公平權益，條文說明又有一個「其他形式之藝文表演活動」，所以我想你如果去問所有關心文化產業的人，問說見面會、粉絲會算不算，大家一定都會說算嘛，因為他怎麼可能沒有表演，搞不好還唱了一點點歌，所以我覺得……","重點是你們這裡是現場藝文表演，重點是現場嘛，所以我想文化部不要因為工作量的緣故，因為從我們來講的話，其他形式當然就包含見面會跟握手會。以上。"],["主席：好，看起來，我們委員會的委員都充分表達，文化部是不是來具體回答一下，對於這兩個提案。"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝。先謝謝各位委員幫助我們把所有的預算解凍了，但是我自己回顧當年這個文創法其實是要強調創作，然後保障創作，這個跟黃牛其實是兩件事情，我還是希望要以現場演出，主體為售票，但是為什麼我覺得見面會、握手，有沒有唱歌，我還是認為它是一個商業行為，它不是一個創作行為，他是要盡量吸收粉絲，他在做的是商業行為，我不覺得它是一個創作行為。雖然每個委員都這樣想，但是我要表達我的個人看法，我們是文化部，再做下去，我們會變黃牛部。我不是怕我們工作增加，是它的表演形式各式各樣，我們可不可以個案處理，因為他握個手，玄彬站起來，他穿的衣服、設計，OK，他就是要商業，他就是要賺錢嘛，他有什麼文化創意呢？他所有的行為都是商業啊，他所有的行為都是商業，跟文化有什麼關係呢？"],["范委員雲：流行文化。"],["李部長遠：流行文化，但是他本身是在經營粉絲啊，我們的文創法當年三讀通過……"],["張委員雅琳：部長，他也是透過很多的戲劇作品，很多的戲劇表演去累積的，這些戲劇表演不就是以其中的我們所說的藝文表演……"],["李部長遠：沒關係，讓你們……"],["主席：沒關係、沒關係，雅琳，你繼續講完。"],["李部長遠：我是表達我個人的看法，因為我覺得他們在經營這個藝人，在經營這個藝人用各種方式，見面、拍照、握手、唱兩首歌，它就是一個商業行為，它不是一個文化行為、它不是一個文化創意。當年我們在通過這個法的時候，我是沒有參與，因為我現在才接手，可是我現在重讀這個法律，當初文創法是要保護文創的，它是保護文創，這個跟黃牛沒有關係。"],["主席：部長，我個人的看法，這個叫文化創意產業發展法，「產業」，重點是產業，它或許不是你認定的文創，可是它是文創衍生出來的產業。","好，我們請沛憶委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：我想每個人對於文化都有主觀的認知跟想法，這也是為什麼我們需要文創法規，所以我覺得還是回到法規面的定義來看。剛剛前面蘇巧慧委員有提到了過去第十條之一的立法理由，所以我們認為依現在現行的文創法條文本身，以及當時的立法理由，應當是沒有排除其他形式之現場表演活動的黃牛售票行為納入文化部來主管，這一點我想應該跟部長也可以有共識。","再來，我就要回到法規面來談，在行政裁量權上面，接下來文化部有沒有要把這些其他形式納入研擬，剛剛部長你也同意、認同，有些可以個案來認定，代表是可以有討論的空間，是有討論空間的，是不是也認同要去研擬，回去討論嘛，到底有多少樣態，見面會只是其中一種，我們剛剛講的，我今天質詢時講的這個泰百影劇人員，這也是其中一種，樣態非常多。今天我們有一個共識，基於委員的提案，我們認為現在回到當初第十條之一的立法理由，音樂、戲劇、舞蹈以外，還有其他形式的現場表演活動，這一點請文化部回去研擬，倘若有黃牛售票行為，是否也納入文創法來管理。部長，如果剛剛你也認同有個案討論空間的話，我認為就應該要去做，文化部要接受，回去去研擬更多的樣態。"],["李部長遠：我接受個案，因為我剛剛……"],["吳委員沛憶：我們回到法規面來談，我跟你對於剛剛講的文化創意可能想法就不同，彼此尊重，但是應該要回到法規面來談，以法規面來說，是沒有排除。"],["李部長遠：對，我沒有完全排除，我們去研議……"],["吳委員沛憶：其他樣態的喔，是不是部長？回到法規面，並沒有排除嘛。"],["李部長遠：我們回去研議這個內容到底到什麼程度算是表演、算是文化，我剛才強調的是它的內容各式各樣，你說拍個照、握個手……"],["吳委員沛憶：回到法規來講，沒有排除！"],["李部長遠：它的型態太多樣了，我們把它一股腦全部納在我們這個法案裡面，你可以想像我們將來要怎麼去判定它，真的滿困難的。"],["主席：再來先請陳培瑜委員，然後是蘇巧慧委員、黃捷委員、范雲委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席，我認同剛剛沛憶委員說的，我真的要拜託文化部帶回去研議，我們今天坐在現場的人，平均年齡可能是40歲，我們是不是主要的文化產業消費者，要看我們過去的生活經驗跟我們的成長經驗，可是如果我們只用我們自己的成長經驗跟生活經驗來看待現在跟我們不同年紀的族群，我指的是可能是40歲以上、40歲以下，不同年紀族群的消費在文化產業這件事情上，是不是我們認為的文化，大家可以討論個三天三夜都講不完。所以我要談的是我手上有一個這個，我不知道部長您知不知道，它是非常重要的，在兒童文學界裡面非常重要的經典角色，它叫Miffy，不認識兒童文學的人，可能以為它就是一個IP，就是一個好可愛的小兔子嘛，它就是我在某某文創園區辦周邊的時候，我會去買的東西。但是回到兒童文學界，它剛開始是一個非常重要的角色，它站在理解兒童的角色上去做這個故事，可是等到這個故事有不同價值的可能性的時候，周邊商品的廠商就會過來了。部長，你記不記得我們之前在審文化部預算的時候，你發下一個豪語，你說要讓臺灣的動漫產業在3年、5年內走上跟日本一樣的國際發展，但是部長如果你以日本的動漫產業為例，你可知道日本動漫產業不是關起門來畫了IP就沒事了，他們在研究IP、研發IP的第一時間，周邊廠商都已經進來討論，這個是日本現在的現實。我舉前幾年一個非常紅的例子，叫做鬼滅之刃，鬼滅在畫的時候，創作者有發想出版商覺得是可以做的角色之後，所有做周邊要做電影的、要做動畫的、要做各式各樣開發的人就已經進來團隊了，所以那個漫畫家絕對不是關起來做文化創作而已，因此它才會叫做文化創意產業。如果部長您發下的豪語希望成真，我相信所有在座委員都希望成真的情況下，請部長跟相關文化部的同仁要把產業發展的思維放進去，不是只有文化創作而已，它才有可能產業化。而我們在面對產業化的時候，請不要再跟所有這些幫助我們發展產業化的商業廠商站在對立的角色，商業跟文化在現在這個時代不可能分得這麼清楚，我當然認同部長你說的文化創作是一回事，但是我要拜託文化部帶回去討論，而不是在這裡就做出結論，如果按照部長剛剛講的那個角色，現在每一個人手上，假設每個人手上我發一個Miffy這件事情，搞不好部長你都覺得不屑，如果你只回到兒童文學角度來看，你會覺得它是商品化的東西，它可能污衊了這個角色在兒童文學當中的地位，但是對我們來說，我再說一次，所有要做文化創意產業的人在想的都是用各式各樣的方法跟行銷、企劃讓這個角色的影響力深植每一個人的心中，當這個角色發揮了影響力，它才有產業的可能。但在部長剛剛您的回答當中，我認為您確實忽略產業的多元面向，在現在2025年的當下已經有不同的樣子了。再回扣剛剛巧慧委員說的玄彬，玄彬之所以站在舞臺上有賣點，或者是所有的明星站在舞臺上辦簽名會有賣點都不只是因為他每天出來裝可愛拍個照，他一定是先有腳本、先有劇本、先有戲劇、先有電影，他才有後續的見面會。如果因為我們今天舉的都是國外的明星讓部長覺得聽了不舒服，我要提醒部長，臺灣在發展臺劇、臺流、臺灣電影的這些明星未來也有可能走上國際，站在文化部的角度要不要協助他們做額外的創意活動，去promote這些角色、promote這些演員？是要的。所以站在文化部的角色，我再次強調，站在文化部的角色當然要去想這件事情。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，我們再請蘇巧慧委員。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝。我想我們繼續講下去其實可以講非常久，尤其是我們在座的這幾位，你可以說立法院的追星人都在這裡了啦。所以我也很感謝部長剛剛回答的態度上已經說至少可以研議，這個感謝部長已經有打開第一步，那我們等一下看看大家可以共同推進的結論是到什麼程度。但我在這裡，因為這個是要必須留下紀錄的，所以因應剛剛前面大家討論，我想我們還是再把這段話重申一下，我們今天引用的法規是文化創意產業發展法，它第一條就開宗明義：「為促進文化產業之發展，建構具有豐富文化及創意內涵之社會環境，運用科技與創新研發，健全文化創意產業人才培育，並積極開發國內外市場，特制定本法。」第三條：「本法所稱文化創意產業，指源自創意或文化積累，透過智慧財產之形成及運用，具有創造財富與就業機會之潛力，並促進全民美學素養，使國民生活環境提升之下列產業」。從一到十五是列舉、十六是概括，中間第五款是電影產業，第六款是廣播電視產業，所以我剛剛舉例的玄彬確實就是影視界的明星，那如果他在這個框框螢幕上面，你說他表演，那麼他走出了框框以後，到真實的世界裡面跟你互動，但這個行為需要售票，這到底算不算是在文化創意產業裡面呢？我認為當然是啊！那這個算不算表演，或至少是在當年所規定的第十條之一的立法理由的其他形式呢？當然算啊！這是我們的見解，我們今天如果因為這樣跟文化部還沒有辦法達成共識，那我至少要期待文化部在一定時間內，不但要帶回去研議，而且在一定時間內要有結論。"],["主席：好，我們再請雅琳補充一下。"],["張委員雅琳：簡單補充一下。我知道文化部這邊可能會覺得見面會的形式跟樣態非常多元，我覺得因為見面會的確是現在流行文化中非常非常重要的一個樣態，是不是可以回去把所有的樣態盤點出來，我們再來看看到底這個地方應該要怎麼來把它納入，可以嗎？我們是不是可以用這樣的方式來討論？不然我覺得你說一條線切下去，完全不討論、完全不放進去，我覺得這也不合理，因為這不符合現在流行文化的發展。"],["李部長遠：對、對、對，我可不可以講一點話？短短的。"],["主席：不然先請范雲講完，您再做個結論。"],["范委員雲：要跟部長對話一下，部長當時講的是，我們要有這個……當然一開始是對文化弱勢的、還不夠產業化的，協助他能夠減稅，讓大家投入，讓它更商業化、更產業化，可是這個法條當時定義的文化創意產業裡面就有廣播電視產業、流行文化產業，所以是規範到的。部長擔心文化部變成黃牛部，是因為我們要解決黃牛的事情的時候，當時主要都是來自音樂、流行文化表演，所以把它放在第十條之一，是因為這樣子，所以文化部感覺為什麼大家都關心黃牛，當然就是搶不到票，商業化很成功的，我覺得您會有這個誤解是因為我們第十條之一掛在這下面，可是回到這個產業裡面，是包含流行、影視、文化的，就不能說是只有創業的，本來商業化程度高的就不在它規範內容內了，所以我是想澄清這樣啦，因為部長剛剛這樣講，我擔心大家會有誤解，那我們就回到當時的定義，就包含影視、流行、文化，都在裡面，以上。","主席、好，接下來請黃捷委員。"],["黃委員捷：我在這邊還是要跟部長鄭重的說明，因為剛剛部長那一番話，其實不只是對非常多的追星人是一個很嚴重的打擊，也對於所有文化創意產業的從業人員是一個非常嚴重的打擊。我真的認真建議部長，你去參加一場見面會，再來跟我們說見面會算不算在文創法涵蓋的範圍，好不好？你完全不懂什麼叫做粉絲見面會，它就是一個影視從業人員跟他的粉絲之間的互動，他完全就是一個表演的形式啊！我不懂為什麼在文化部認定的定義裡面，會把表演形式如此的狹隘化，為什麼會如此的，甚至可以說是食古不化？我非常的驚訝，我真的非常的驚訝，因為在見面會裡面，偶像跟粉絲之間多元的互動，包括他可能會隨口唱一、兩首歌，他可能會隨時跳一、兩首歌曲，甚至是他有非常多應粉絲觀眾要求的，可能是一些影劇的畫面，或者是說他有非常多元的跟飯撒等等的，我不知道部長懂不懂，但是無論如何，你剛剛講那一句說，粉絲見面會不是文化創作，只是純粹商業行為，這句話真的對文化非常的不尊重，難道演唱會就是文化創作，不是商業行為嗎？各式各樣你們說的現場……難道一場舞蹈的表演就只是文化創作，就不是商業行為嗎？商業行為跟文化創作怎麼會是分開的呢？所以我是覺得部長剛剛那一番話，我建議你收回去，因為非常嚴重，這個聽在所有的追星人、所有的影視從業人員，還有文化創意的產業人員耳裡非常的刺耳，而且極其不尊重，甚至是法規的內容，剛剛其他委員都已經提過，第三條裡面已經把各式各樣的文化產業都寫出來了，在臺灣，一個影星、一個非常有名的，例如誰？"],["范委員雲：蔡依林好了，大家都知道。"],["黃委員捷：好，蔡依林。"],["張委員雅琳：許光漢。"],["黃委員捷：蔡依林、許光漢、張惠妹，他們難道沒有文化的成分嗎？他們沒有帶動臺流嗎？所以這個怎麼會用一個商業行為去定義它呢？所以我還是誠摯建議，看是不是今天你們要回去研議，我們願意給你們時間，一個月好不好？一個月研擬看看這些多元的樣態，不要就馬上打槍，拜託！"],["范委員雲：我最後舉例一下，瑪丹娜超紅，他在性別的流行文化上占有非常重要的角色，蔡依林最近的蛇蠍頭造型也是非常有創意，我看了覺得好厲害喔！所以這個東西就是文化創意，只是他商業化比較成功。"],["主席：再來就請部長做回答。"],["李部長遠：我想各位有點誤會，你們對我有點誤會，好像說我看不起商業，看不起這個……真的是誤會，我來到文化部之後把每樣東西都當作產業，我從以前的工作都是到戲院看，有幾票、賺多少錢，所以第一，你們有點誤會了，我純粹是想把它分類，它屬不屬於我們這個、屬不屬於文創法第十條之一，由文化部來管。","第二，你們對我有點誤會，因為我年紀比較大，我74歲，你們在跟我講話的時候有帶一點覺得我這個老頭子，我怎麼會懂流行？我跟你們講，我也曾經是偶像欸，我也曾經是偶像欸，對不起，我在24歲去大學演講的時候是滿坑滿谷的人，我知道什麼是偶像。"],["張委員雅琳：你可以辦見面會啊！"],["李部長遠：而且你們也不要把我……因為我74歲，我知道你們現在講的那個形式，但是也不要因為我的年齡，你們略帶諷刺，我有4個孫子，他們才10歲，他們玩什麼東西我都知道，我不會因為我的年齡而不懂年輕，那個見面形式，你叫我去看他們表演，我是一點興趣都沒有，真的啊！為什麼叫我去看他們表演？為什麼我要去了解那個？我一點都沒有藐視，我沒有藐視商業，我也沒有藐視表演，我只是想把它區隔說它屬不屬於文創法第十條之一，我願意帶回去研議，研議的原因是因為我想知道這個法律當初是怎麼訂的，然後我也想知道全世界對這樣的見面會是怎麼研議的，我只是希望你們不要誤會，以我的年齡來看，好像很看不起年輕人、玄彬怎樣怎樣，不要這樣想我。"],["黃委員捷：我完全沒有……"],["李部長遠：我非常年輕的，我非常年輕的，所以這件事情請大家不要誤會，我只是就法律論法律，OK？讓我回去研議好嗎？然後時間……"],["張委員雅琳：我簡單……部長你回應了嗎？"],["主席：好、好……"],["李部長遠：可以、可以……"],["主席：有、有，好、好，雅琳。"],["張委員雅琳：我簡單講一下就好。部長，我覺得大家可能在這個……因為剛剛你有講一句話，就是說他們只是站在那邊，他們有做什麼表演？我覺得在這一點上面我們聽起來，可能就會覺得好像有點貶低這樣子的文化，但是你剛剛這樣說明，這樣子我們理解，因為現在追星人的文化，雖然可能過去……就像以前的動漫，這些都屬於次文化，可是現在其實有非常非常多人關注，所以我們剛剛只是想要多做這些說明，讓部長來了解而已。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們也要留紀錄，我們很尊敬部長，所以剛剛都是解釋法條，第一條、第二條、第三條。"],["黃委員捷：我也要澄清，真的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：小野是我們當年課本都要讀的。"],["黃委員捷：絕對沒有對部長有任何關於年齡的發言跟態度……"],["范委員雲：我們家有買小野的書，不只一本。"],["黃委員捷：這個跟年齡都沒有關係，純粹就是希望我們一起來討論到底怎麼讓文化產業能夠更好，拜託，謝謝，不要亂貼標籤。"],["主席：好、好、好，我們具體聚焦，我們就聚焦在臨時提案上好不好？部長答應要研議，所以基本上第一個案子應該就沒有問題吧！要修改嗎？"],["李部長遠：就是把見面會跟握手會等形式改成是第三段……"],["張委員雅琳：研議……"],["李部長遠：研議，對，請文化部研議，後面都不要可以嗎？"],["張委員雅琳：後面哪裡都不要？什麼意思？"],["主席：因為你……"],["李部長遠：目前我們想接受的是以現場演出為主體，還有售票行為的，但是……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有啦，部長……"],["李部長遠：至於剛剛講說握手、見面那個，我們以檢舉的個案來判定，另外要不要進入到文化創意產業，我們來研議嘛！是不是這樣子？"],["蘇委員巧慧：應該不是喔！"],["李部長遠：不是嗎？"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，我們現在手上拿到的有明確見面會形式這個地方劃掉，然後有加藍字的這個版本，是在我們剛剛這麼長一段將近二、三十分鐘討論之前就拿到的，那麼現在我們兩邊討論過之後，部長也充分了解我們的訴求，同時願意研議了嘛！既然是研議了，我們剛剛在講的就是見面會、握手會了，只是研議，好不好？就是完全……"],["主席：只是研議，就不要再糾結這些文字，就是研議委員提出來的提案。"],["蘇委員巧慧：就是原本的文字，我們現在留作紀錄的也很清楚──研議，我們知道「研議」是什麼意思啊！我們現在沒有叫你直接納入啊！"],["主席：好，我們請常次。"],["李部長遠：我們請次長，他比較瞭解這個法令。"],["徐次長宜君：跟委員報告一下，因為在最後這一段寫的是要明確將見面會、握手會等活動形式納入，事實上就如委員講的，因為形式非常多元，所以明確將見面會、握手會納入的時候，它反而是一種限制，所以我們是建議……"],["張委員雅琳：我們是寫「等活動形式」，「等」。"],["徐次長宜君：所以，我們建議可不可以不要有「明確」兩個字，因為既然是研議，可不可以不要有「明確」？"],["張委員雅琳：好，就是將「明確」拿掉而已，是嗎？好，可以，我可以接受。"],["李部長遠：就是研議後再……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有，所以就是這段文字裡面，原文只刪除「明確」兩個字嘛！這樣好不好？就是張雅琳委員的提案，只有……"],["張委員雅琳：我們可以再唸一次，好不好？我們可不可以這段再唸一次？"],["主席：就最後一段。"],["徐次長宜君：爰此，請文化部儘速研議文化創意產業發展法第十條之一，將見面會、握手會等活動形式納入藝文表演定義之範疇，使相關票券之交易與轉售行為得以依法管理，並強化藝文演出市場秩序與觀眾權益保障。"],["主席：OK！"],["張委員雅琳：好，我沒有問題。"],["主席：好，那就修正通過。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我的後面這個……"],["主席：第2案要怎麼樣具體修改？是不是建請貴部研議認定藝文表演時……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對啊！如果我可以同意的話，我這邊建請貴部研議，好不好？我的認定……"],["主席：研議認定藝文表演……"],["蘇委員巧慧：然後這後面是我的建議，我的想法最簡單就是以有沒有售票行為為認定基準嘛！因為藝文活動實在是太多了，形式也很多，所以我認為是用有沒有售票來區分，是不是納入本法適用範圍？這是我的建議嘛！給你研議，這樣還不行喔？這是我的建議，我已經從認定改成研議了嘛！"],["主席：好，就後面那一段，因此……"],["李部長遠：最前面應該是前年5月。"],["徐次長宜君：112年5月修正通過，就是第一句話：文化創意產業……"],["李部長遠：就是差一個前年。"],["主席：可是它是修正通過，去年不是有修正嗎？"],["李部長遠：沒有。"],["主席：喔，是前年！時間過那麼快！"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，那這個地方應該是筆誤。但是剛剛來溝通的時候有答應是在一個月之內要提出研議結果，但是現在兩邊都沒有寫上去，不要以為我忘記了，我有記得你來溝通的時候有說。"],["李部長遠：兩個月。"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有，我們不同意，所以我們說一個月，就是研議結果，可以再討論啊！"],["主席：兩個案子都要加在後面。"],["蘇委員巧慧：於一個月內提出結果，於一個月內提出報告。"],["主席：不然兩個月好不好？折衷啦！"],["蘇委員巧慧：不是，原因是怕會期結束。"],["主席：可是會期不是要……喔，不一定會延會。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你知道今年千變萬化，誰知道！好，兩個月，折衷嘛！好不好？"],["主席：兩個月！"],["李部長遠：還在會期內嘛？"],["主席：如果有延會的話。","好，第1個案子就是在最後方加入：於兩個月內提交書面報告予教文會。"],["徐次長宜君：最後一段：爰此，請文化部儘速於兩個月內研議文化創意產業發展法第十條之一；這樣子是不是一個方法？就是在第三段第一句話的後面，這樣後面就不用再寫教文會。爰此，請文化部儘速於兩個月內研議……"],["主席：文化創意產業發展法第十條之一，後面就都不用了。"],["徐次長宜君：後面就是照原來的。"],["主席：將見面會、握手會等活動形式……"],["張委員雅琳：我可以接受。"],["徐次長宜君：兩個月內。"],["主席：OK喔？"],["蘇委員巧慧：好啦！我們是基於對你的信任，不然的話，只是兩個月內研議，我要的是結果啊！"],["主席：他會研議結果出來。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們是基於對你的信任，我要連署，我等一下去簽名。"],["主席：好，第1個案子就這樣修正通過。","第2案是巧慧的案子，我們就是……"],["蘇委員巧慧：倒數第二行……"],["主席：第一句：修正條文於前年5月修正通過；「去年」改為「前年」；然後在倒數第二行：因此建請貴部研議認定藝文表演時……最後是不是再加……或者是次長有什麼……"],["蘇委員巧慧：就比照剛剛次長的寫法就好，兩個一樣的寫法就好。"],["主席：對喔！"],["徐次長宜君：因此建請貴部於兩個月內研議認定藝文表演時……就是都這樣。"],["主席：好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：可以。"],["主席：這樣子沒問題喔？"],["張委員雅琳：好。"],["范委員雲：好。"],["主席：好，第2案也修正通過。謝謝提案委員。","接下來進行質詢，委員如果有補簽，來我的左邊簽名，我們再請議事人員詳細登載在議事錄。","再來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-10","speakers":["林宜瑾","郭昱晴","劉書彬","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","柯志恩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳秀寳","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","葉元之","范雲","蘇巧慧","黃捷","陳培瑜","邱志偉"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算解凍案49案","agenda_id":"1144601_00005"}}},{"id":"161017","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161017","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e06dac33dc0fd4a03cb6a086056f51b23eb3464f2517af749f019d60a91c10e9f3c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:33:09 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有請部長"},{"start":22.861,"end":33.421,"text":"部長好葉委員你好部長我也是想要來請教一下延續剛剛那個輔導金因為我們是有列另外一個標準就是用市佔率就是看他的票房"},{"start":34.332,"end":62.824,"text":"當然以票房來講的話這是前十名可不可以一樣就是提供我一個報告就是講一下為什麼有的電影它是有領到輔導金然後是領多少然後標準是什麼這樣子好不好今天不用回答了就是事後再給個書面報告這個也是我們本身文化不該重新去想那個機制啊對對對所以謝謝你問這個因為我們看到市占率比較高的電影就是票房比較好的電影好像都沒有來申請輔導金"},{"start":64.085,"end":87.121,"text":"那有的可能是他認為他來申請也申請不到啦所以就放棄申請啦那也有的可能是沒有給那有的是領到之後 領到輔導金票房很好那有的可能是領到輔導金票房不好所以我想要依票房順序可不可以提供給我們一個資料 說明資料好 謝謝第二個我想還是想講一個我滿關心的黃牛的議題"},{"start":89.688,"end":113.267,"text":"之前文化部兩千多萬打黃牛辦公室後來我們都沒有凍結也沒有刪除就是希望文化部打黃牛這塊可以非常認真去做那三月多的時候我有去 因為我們有執行執行結果發現裁罰量在三月的時候裁罰量是145件其實比例是很低"},{"start":114.068,"end":139.057,"text":"那今天是已經到五月初了大概過了一個多月那裁罰量增加到160件大概一個多月只增加15件全台灣喔黃油的裁罰量只有增加15件我也是非常的不滿意啦那等一下再請部長回答啦有一個地方政府的局長他是在媒體上面公開的把問題點出來他說"},{"start":142.349,"end":159.194,"text":"因為地方的人力不足以桃園來講人力大概就只有兩個人所以結案率很低目前結案不到三分之一所有結案應該是中央打黃油辦公室收案之後分案分給桃園那分給桃園的案子他們到現在結案"},{"start":160.074,"end":173.466,"text":"不到三分之一那也不是說他們不認真他們非常認真但是人力就不足啊而且中央分給他們的案子裡面後來發現無效案件高達四成等於是花了很多時間在查無效案件"},{"start":175.97,"end":199.876,"text":"那其中還有一個問題就是他們需要很多不同的機關的支持例如說他們需要警察的支持他們還要去問當事人然後甚至於還要去問售票系統那售票系統會不會願意把資料給他們這也是一個很大的問題所以困難重重啦地方沒有什麼人力所以現在他們桃園是直接跟中央要人"},{"start":200.456,"end":212.894,"text":"那我的了解應該不是只有桃園有這樣的狀況因為機制是一樣的嘛中央接到案子之後由打黃牛辦公室來分案分給地方去查然後最後做裁罰"},{"start":214.144,"end":234.165,"text":"如果地方現在面臨人力不足所以黃油票在查的速度比較慢然後一直沒有辦法結案請問一下 我問一下那個部長能不能調整一下這個人力分配啊既然你們都已經編了兩千多萬成立打黃油辦公室在中央那中央這個打黃油辦公室能不能分擔一些地方的負擔部長"},{"start":235.796,"end":260.269,"text":"我想你剛才講到桃園市政府這一點我們能夠做的就是我們評估一下他們需要什麼經費其實我們的經費也不多啦評估一下他需要什麼協助因為我們對於地方上我們有個法律諮詢單位也做過教育訓練一個是法律知識 一個是人力那人力在地方上不足這是普遍的現象"},{"start":261.63,"end":289.021,"text":"我們的文化不能做就是知道他需要什麼我們能不能幫助這個應該不會只有桃園有這個狀況因為我們剛剛看到全國的整個黃流票的裁罰量就是很少嘛一個多月只剩下15件主要是他的那個裁罰過程非常的繁複那中央已經花兩千多萬都成立那個打黃流辦公室啊那這個打黃流辦公室不能多負擔一點工作嗎為什麼他們只負責收案跟分案"},{"start":294.909,"end":303.703,"text":"然後是由律師事務所承接對 然後其實他們也可以初步也可以做一些查詢的工作嘛不見得全部都要都丟給地方去做啊"},{"start":306.016,"end":326.302,"text":"我們人力也不太夠耶怎麼你們都編那麼多錢成立打黃牛辦公室 國家隊耶他主要是那個程序沒有啦 我們現在是把這個問題提出來因為黃牛大家都深惡痛絕那不要因為什麼中央地方權責什麼人力這種東西讓黃牛沒辦法打下去嘛這其實影響的是消費者的權益啦"},{"start":328.783,"end":356.008,"text":"因為打黃牛這也是文化部既定政策而且我們文創法也修了嘛法律也有配套所以現在應該思考說在質詢過程如何讓它更完美嘛那現在的問題就是第一結果確實不好因為增加的件數不多第二個其實是卡在人力不足造成結案率很低這些問題我們都看到了所以當然文化部應該針對這些問題提出一個解決的方法嘛才能讓打黃牛這個事情比較順利啦"},{"start":358.75,"end":381.921,"text":"長遠看的話這個問題應該是有地方上編預算把這個人力再補助長遠怎麼樣我希望說你們去找地方政府討論啦因為現在你也不能說中央怪地方地方怪中央然後事情沒得做然後大家黃牛就是一直存在我覺得這的確是一直存在好不好這個部長我希望快一點啦因為文創法也修法也好幾年了嘛"},{"start":383.203,"end":404.341,"text":"這個可不可以提出一個檢討的報告出來可以嗎部長可不可以檢討報告不好意思委員這邊是希望我們跟地方大聲一點我聽不見委員這邊是希望我們再跟地方政府討論一下現在問題已經提出來給你們了啊然後對啊你總是要提出一個解決的方法出來嘛可以嗎"},{"start":407.216,"end":421.345,"text":"多久其實黃柳的問題從我來上任以來委員你大概記得吧您的質詢一直在問黃柳其實我們已經到了行政院層級開了很多會然後跟每個部位都討論過"},{"start":422.526,"end":436.056,"text":"最後我們能夠執行就是就到地方去找每一個場館拜託在實名制的時候現在結果就是這樣嘛不然我們會一直在循環這些查證啊 警察抓完之後抓要罰錢啊然後他再來輸院啊不是 他會罰"},{"start":440.279,"end":468.965,"text":"不要去找理由啦 不想聰明的人找方法啦好不好現在的問題就是沒有解決那請大家針對問題想到一個方法來解決就是這樣子好不好 想一個解決方案出來啦盡快啦好不好 不想好 盡快這個 叫你想一個方法解決問題本來就是你的工作啊 這個不是我對啊 它本來就是你的工作啊這個本來就是個難題 譬如說要處理啦 不然我們文創法是修心酸的喔"},{"start":470.097,"end":485.006,"text":"那現在就是卡在說人力不足然後結案率不到三分之一啊他結案率的問題太明顯了而且這個全國都這樣因為我剛剛講一個全國數字嘛我剛剛講全國數字一兩個月還增加15件而已那麼多人在檢舉好啦 部長這個問題要解決了這絕對不會是在為難你啦這真的是要解決的問題啦然後再來我提醒幾件事情"},{"start":490.689,"end":506.342,"text":"第一個是我們在平台上面賣黃牛票的狀況可能還是蠻嚴重可能要請你了解一下這個是六月份五月天的演唱會它的票在它的賣票系統上面都已經官方已經完售了可是我們有發現一個以前曾經媒體有報導過一個跨國的"},{"start":509.384,"end":525.201,"text":"票券的販售平台你可以看到他還是在這個平台上面還是買得到五月天的票喔而且一張票可以賣到九千塊啊這個很擺明就是黃油票因為有加價出售嘛那這個因為我不想幫這個平台打廣告所以我就把這個平台"},{"start":527.6,"end":553.771,"text":"隱蔽在上面討論演唱會門票的人是非常的踴躍而且曾經在2018年的時候有媒體報導過這個平台當時是直接把這個平台定位為黃牛票網站那我想因為2023年之後因為我們文創法修之後可能沒有那麼猖獗已經不敢那麼明目張膽但是他還是繼續以一個那個門票販售平台的形式經營只是平台形式經營就是會出現黃牛票"},{"start":554.639,"end":572.416,"text":"所以這個我們會後再提供給文化部啦像這種媒體報導過的然後民眾也關注的很知名的類似的平台文化部應該會有相關的訊息啊我不知道為什麼連這種東西都沒有我們其實剛委員問的就是我們找過速發部去研究"},{"start":573.577,"end":601.695,"text":"檢舉裡面有7個常見的售票帳號有22篇文章速發部也協助我們把它下架基本上我們在剛剛委員所提的問題其實我們有非常努力的用各種方式去防堵包括其他部會的合作還有警政單位你們可以建議速發部成立一個APP因為他們之前有做一個打炸APP打了APP就是讓民眾去檢舉去APP檢舉然後他立刻會找相關單位回覆說這是不是一個詐騙"},{"start":602.515,"end":610.144,"text":"其實也可以弄一個APP就是打黃牛的只要有人看到黃牛資訊就趕快去APP他就可以自動回覆啊好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝葉元智"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":593,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時33分）你好，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。"],["李部長遠：葉委員你好。"],["葉委員元之：部長，我也是想要來請教一下，延續剛剛的輔導金，因為我們有列另外一個標準，就是用市占率，看它的票房。以票房來講，這是前10名，可不可以一樣提供給我一個報告，講一下為什麼有的電影有領到輔導金，然後是領多少、標準是什麼？好不好？今天不用回答了，就是事後再給書面報告。"],["李部長遠：OK！好，這也是我們文化部本身應該重新去想那個機制……"],["葉委員元之：對、對、對。"],["李部長遠：謝謝你問這個。"],["葉委員元之：因為我們看到市占率比較高的電影，就是票房比較好的電影好像都沒有來申請輔導金，有的可能是他認為申請也申請不到，所以就放棄申請，也有的可能是沒有給。有的是領到領到輔導金之後，票房很好；有的可能是領到輔導金，票房不好，所以我想要依票房順序，可不可以提供給我們一個書面資料？謝謝。","第二個，我還是想講一個我蠻關心的就是黃牛的議題，之前文化部二千多萬成立打黃牛辦公室，後來我們都沒有凍結、也沒有刪除，就是希望文化部針對打黃牛這一塊可以非常認真去做。3月多的時候，我有質詢，結果發現裁罰量在3月時是145件，其實比例很低，到今天已經5月初了，大概過了一個多月，裁罰量增加到160件，一個多月只增加15件，全臺灣黃牛的裁罰量只有增加15件，我也是非常不滿意啦，等一下再請部長回答。","有一個地方政府的局長在媒體上面公開把問題點出來，他說因為地方人力不足，以桃園來講，人力大概只有兩個人，所以結案率很低，目前結案不到三分之一。所謂的結案，應該是中央打黃牛辦公室收案之後，分案分給桃園，分給桃園的案子到現在結案不到三分之一，也不是說他們不認真，他們非常認真，但是人力就不足啊，而且中央分給他們的案子裡面，後來發現無效案件高達四成，等於花了很多時間在查無效案。其中還有一個問題就是他們需要很多不同機關的支持，例如他們需要警察的支持，他們還要去問當事人，甚至於還要去問售票系統，售票系統會不會願意把資料給他們也是一個很大的問題，所以困難重重，地方沒有什麼人力，所以現在他們桃園是直接跟中央要人。我的了解應該不是只有桃園有這樣的狀況，因為機制是一樣的嘛！中央接到案子之後，由打黃牛辦公室來分案，分給地方去查，最後做裁罰，地方現在面臨人力不足，所以黃牛票在查的速度比較慢，一直沒有辦法結案。請問一下部長，能不能調整一下人力分配？既然你們都已經編了二千多萬在中央成立打黃牛辦公室，中央這個打黃牛辦公室能不能分擔一些地方的負擔？部長。"],["李部長遠：你剛才講到桃園市政府這一點，我們能夠做的就是來評估一下他們需要什麼經費、評估一下它需要什麼協助，其實我們的經費也不多，對於地方上，我們有個法律諮詢單位，也做過教育訓練，一個是法律知識，一個是人力，人力在地方上不足，這是普遍的現象，我們文化部能做的就是知道它需要什麼，我們能不能幫助……"],["葉委員元之：這個應該不會只有桃園有這個狀況……"],["李部長遠：對、對、對，所以……"],["葉委員元之：因為我們剛剛看到全國的整個黃牛票裁罰量就是很少，一個多月只增加15件，全國只增加15件。"],["李部長遠：主要是它的裁罰過程非常繁複。"],["葉委員元之：對，中央已經花二千多萬成立打黃牛辦公室，這個打黃牛辦公室不能多負擔一點工作嗎？"],["李部長遠：二千多萬其實……"],["葉委員元之：為什麼他們只負責收案跟分案？然後是由律師事務所承接，其實他們也可以初步做一些查詢的工作，不見得全部都要丟給地方去做。"],["李部長遠：我們人力也不太夠。"],["葉委員元之：你們怎麼人力不夠？你們都編那麼多錢，成立打黃牛辦公室，國家隊耶！"],["李部長遠：主要是那個程序……"],["葉委員元之：沒有啦，我們現在是把這個問題提出來。"],["李部長遠：OK！好。"],["葉委員元之：因為對於黃牛，大家都深惡痛絕，不要因為什麼中央地方權責及人力這種東西讓黃牛沒辦法打下去嘛！"],["李部長遠：是。"],["葉委員元之：這其實影響的是消費者的權益，因為打黃牛也是文化部既定政策，而且我們文創法也修了嘛！法律也有配套。"],["李部長遠：的確。"],["葉委員元之：現在應該思考在執行過程如何讓它更完美，現在的問題就是：第一、結果確實不好，因為增加的件數不多，第二、其實是卡在人力不足，造成結案率很低。這些問題我們都看到了，當然文化部應該針對這些問題提出一個解決的方法，才能讓打黃牛這件事比較順利。"],["李部長遠：長遠來看的話，這個問題應該是由地方上編預算，把人力再補出來……"],["葉委員元之：部長，長遠怎麼樣，我希望你們去找地方政府討論啦，現在你也不能說中央怪地方、地方怪中央，然後事情沒得做，黃牛就是一直存在啊！"],["李部長遠：對，的確是一直存在……"],["葉委員元之：好不好？部長，我希望快一點啦，因為文創法修法也好幾年了嘛！可不可以提出一個檢討報告出來，可以嗎？部長。"],["吳司長宜璇：委員這邊是希望我們再跟地方政府討論一下是嗎？"],["葉委員元之：現在問題已經提出來給你們了啊！"],["吳司長宜璇：好，我們會準備一個檢討報告。"],["葉委員元之：你總是要提出一個解決的方法出來，可以嗎？多久？"],["李部長遠：其實黃牛的問題，從我上任以來，委員大概還記得，你的質詢也一直在問黃牛，其實我們已經到了行政院層級開了很多會，跟每個部會都討論過，最後我們能夠執行的就是到地方去找每一個場館拜託，在實名制部分……"],["葉委員元之：現在的結果就是這樣。"],["李部長遠：不然我們會一直在循環這些查證，警察抓完之後，抓到要罰錢，然後他再來訴願，這會把人力全部……"],["葉委員元之：部長，你不要一直找理由，聰明的人找方法，現在問題就是沒有解決，請大家針對問題想一個方法來解決，就是這樣子，儘快想一個解決方案出來，部長，好不好？"],["李部長遠：好，儘快。"],["葉委員元之：叫你想一個方法，解決問題本來就是你的工作，又不是我……"],["李部長遠：No，這個本來就是個難題，譬如……"],["葉委員元之：要解決、要處理啦！不然我們的文創法是修心酸的喔？現在就是卡在人力不足，結案率不到三分之一。"],["李部長遠：結案率的問題太明顯了。"],["葉委員元之：而且全國都這樣，我剛剛有講了一個全國的數字，一兩個月才增加15件而已，可是有那麼多人在檢舉，部長，這個問題要解決，這絕對不會是在為難你，這真的是要解決的問題。","再來，我提醒幾件事情，第一個是我們在平臺上面賣黃牛票的狀況，可能還是滿嚴重的，所以要請你瞭解一下，這個是6月份的五月天演唱會，門票在售票官方系統上面都已經完售了，可是我們有發現一個以前曾經媒體有報導過的跨國票券販售平臺，你可以看到在這個平臺上面還是買得到五月天的門票，而且一張票可以賣到9,000塊，這個很擺明就是黃牛票，因為有加價出售的情況。因為我不想幫這個平臺打廣告，所以我就把這個平臺隱蔽，在上面討論演唱會門票的人非常踴躍，而且2018年的時候曾經有媒體報導過這個平臺，當時是直接把這個平臺定位為黃牛票網站，2023年文創法修正之後，可能沒有那麼猖獗，已經不敢那麼明目張膽，但是它還是繼續以一個門票販售平臺的形式經營，只是以平臺形式經營就是會出現黃牛票。這個資料我們會後再提供給文化部，像這種媒體報導過、民眾也關注的、很知名的類似平臺，文化部應該會有相關的訊息，我不知道你們為什麼連這種東西都沒有？"],["李部長遠：有，其實剛才委員問的，我們有找過數發部去研究，檢舉裡面有7個常見的售票帳號、22篇文章，數發部也協助我們把它下架了，基本上，剛才委員所提的問題，其實我們有非常努力的用各種方式去防堵，包括與其他部會合作，還有警政單位。"],["葉委員元之：你們可以建議數發部成立一個app，他們之前有做一個打詐app讓民眾去檢舉，然後它會立刻找相關單位回復這是不是詐騙，其實你們也可以弄一個打黃牛的app，只要有人看到黃牛資訊就趕快去app檢舉，它就可以自動回復，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員，部長請回。","接下來請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-10","speakers":["林宜瑾","郭昱晴","劉書彬","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","柯志恩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳秀寳","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","葉元之","范雲","蘇巧慧","黃捷","陳培瑜","邱志偉"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算解凍案49案","agenda_id":"1144601_00005"}}},{"id":"161016","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161016","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e06bbc0a336cf0cfae2115e7528c8151ef53464f2517af749f078ff57680a1797c35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"11:23:29 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我也請鄭部長然後也請我們指揮官請正院打擊詐欺指揮中心馬指揮官委員早那肅發部的代表也準備一下好 我今天的主題非常的明確喔台灣要打架國家隊台灣成立打詐國家隊但是在野黨卻在扯後腿嗎"},{"start":34.485,"end":53.777,"text":"口口聲聲說要打炸要防炸那今天質詢的委員呢回去之後就可以剪影片做圖卡發文說自己好關心打炸可是呢省預算的時候大砍預算大動預算讓我們的打炸政策作為"},{"start":55.258,"end":79.143,"text":"綁手綁腳 動彈不折 下一頁喔這個是速發布喔 速發布是這一次政府總預算這個受災戶最嚴重的山洞合併超過七成 也就是剩下三成的錢可以花當中對於監管網路平台 落實廣告實名制要打炸就受阻了"},{"start":80.043,"end":104.598,"text":"然後我們要開發AI的分析網路詐騙的這個系統然後來減少人力的負擔自動化可以通報只剩下三成的錢可以用了我們要出國交流國際的這個情報能夠互相的匯報要司法互助我們要資安技術的合作預算剩三成我看下一個"},{"start":108.107,"end":132.023,"text":"內政部警政署也是重災戶啊在打詐相關預算裡頭大山大洞超過兩成所以呢你的影響就是協助人民要懂得視詐辯視詐騙這資訊傳播管道我們要宣傳我們要政策的配套我們要人力我們要物力還有網路流量記錄資料庫"},{"start":134.404,"end":153.861,"text":"要對打詐、毒品、槍砲、兒少性侵犯罪業務的推廣難道因為預算只剩就打八折了嗎再來我請指揮官喔還據說你們指揮中心的預算更慘到底有多慘 來說一下"},{"start":156.636,"end":180.704,"text":"跟委員報告其實指揮中心我們所用到的預算不多但是大部分都是在我們的會議所需要因為是行政院的業務費被刪那也跟委員報告我們從去年九月份成立到現在我們現在總共各式會議我們召開了九十二次九十二場但是我們現在的預算就是每個月剩下九千塊可以租影音機那其他的預算都沒有了Pardon me"},{"start":181.806,"end":204.899,"text":"你的指揮中心每個月預算剩9000塊只可以租引印機那你要開92場會今年就沒得開啦我們就是開但是用我們各自複審的方式所以大家聽聽看喔請大家告訴大家行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心的預算被砍到每個月剩9000塊"},{"start":207.694,"end":226.583,"text":"我們到底是要支持政府打詐防詐還是要讓政府沒有辦法打詐防詐然後乾脆向詐騙集團投降好了書發布我剛剛說你們的預算七成被煽動難道你們的業務以後就打三折了嗎 怎麼辦啊"},{"start":227.879,"end":249.573,"text":"是 報告委員 雖然我們的預算確實是有收到影響影響打架非常嚴重嘛 對不對 尤其在網路那一塊是的 那但是呢 因為我們還是透過公司協力的部分來跟我們的網路廣告平台業者一起來做一個努力喔所以讓你們要加倍努力啊 事倍公辦啊去總結啊 去合作啊 去拜託民間啊 做回來做"},{"start":250.615,"end":258.462,"text":"是 我想其實民間應該也有網路廣告平台業者也有這樣的義務好 警政署署長就你們怎麼辦啊"},{"start":260.697,"end":289.459,"text":"你們以後預算就請在野黨的委員不要來argue你們的預算你們的政策來對 我覺得就是有一些我們推動的就是在宣導讓全民房災的意識能夠再做提升所以這個部分就是刪跟動的比較嚴重一點然後你的網路流量網路流量的一個這件事就是要去追源頭的這些相關的設備也是動的比較多一點動了大概8.81"},{"start":290.82,"end":313.308,"text":"所以啊 8.8億嘛 對不對我現在看到你們內政部在打詐業務光凍結就是10.8億嘛 是天啊如果說在野黨的委員關心打詐 要向詐騙集團宣戰結果來砍 來刪 來動預算 那我要說在野黨就是台灣政治圈最大的詐騙集團我們看下一頁"},{"start":318.069,"end":334.98,"text":"今天呢主席排的這個會議主題是引用聯合國的這個毒品跟打架辦公室的一個報告剛剛我聽到前面您的回答部長的回答是說其實他的真實性還帶確認因為他不是官方確認的文件"},{"start":335.76,"end":348.934,"text":"但即便如此 雖然不能盡信 但是一些揭露的事項 我們也是可以來納入參考政策的研議包括這個報告告訴了我們 跨國組織犯罪的生態系已經轉型了由傳統的毒品轉向工業化的網路詐騙跟資安犯罪"},{"start":355.861,"end":377.188,"text":"這個報告也告訴我們詐騙集團高度的整合化跟企業化的運作虛擬資產洗錢人口販運地下金融AI都一起這個磨高一尺道就要高一丈喔第三呢這個報告也告訴我們整個犯罪據點是轉向無政府管控或是非國家武裝"},{"start":378.769,"end":404.866,"text":"控制的地區就是東南亞的地區這個報告告訴了我們詐騙金額實在是嚇死人光東亞東南亞就損失就這個去年度的報告370億美元這是這個報告告訴我們的下一頁可以參考的地方參考但是不能盡信也就是說不能輕易的採信的地方也請大家不要去渲染"},{"start":406.295,"end":420.354,"text":"這個報告有把台灣打成是詐騙之島嗎剛剛我還看在野黨的文章說恭喜喔 恭喜喔 台灣登上世界舞台天啊 用這種幸災樂禍的心情來看待我們的國家打架的作為"},{"start":421.616,"end":441.012,"text":"部長您要回答之前我來提醒一下這個報告我讀到的是他們在東亞觀察出特殊經濟詐騙源區就是金三角有緬甸柬埔寨跟寮國而台灣的角色我們是受害者來源國之一就是我們是受害國家而且當然台灣跟個案的關聯有關"},{"start":443.914,"end":457.031,"text":"但是台灣絕對不是這個報告的主體我就以我整理了報告內的各國出現的頻率中國最高在整篇報告當中中國被提到102次台灣被提到26次"},{"start":461.394,"end":487.985,"text":"泰國、日本、寮國、緬甸、柬埔寨、菲律賓被提到的次數都高於台灣所以如果在野黨的委員來說這個報告你看國際證實了台灣就是全球最嚴重東南亞最慘的詐騙之島這是事實嗎?部長這個不是這個報告雖然是對我們非常的不友善但這個報告其實它的來源這個來源也是我們也是"},{"start":489.093,"end":510.791,"text":"他搞不好也是一個詐騙那另外他裡面的話最主要的講的就是一個東亞跟東寮各國的一個情形那當然把台灣也寫進去但是最主要的他是講說有四個案例有四個案件他有一些的主要的嫌犯或者什麼他曾經跟台灣有關聯譬如說他以前20年前或幾十年前在台灣居住後那個人來自台灣但是他已經"},{"start":515.454,"end":539.129,"text":"已經是落實在那些東南亞的國家了因為個案有被提及台灣的關聯但是台灣在這整個通篇報導當中告訴我們台灣其實在報告當中的身份是受害者來源國之一台灣被提及的頻率26次中國被提到102次其他國家的防詐"},{"start":540.663,"end":556.355,"text":"恐怕他們面對的情勢比我們更險峻但是我們台灣絕對要加強因為詐騙集團就是人民共同心中承受非常大的壓力我們必須做 下一頁所以說對應於這個防詐報告的五大建議"},{"start":557.236,"end":564.078,"text":"我沒有時間講事實上從提高政治層級的關注行政院做到了卓院長宣告成立了防炸行動綱領2.0我們成立了打炸國家隊第二個這個報告提出要強化制度跟監管的工具以及第三點執法跟技術的能力要upgrade我們就是修了打炸四法有新的武器M化車GPS追蹤然後網路流量紀錄可以調取我們都做到"},{"start":584.205,"end":613.391,"text":"然後呢這個報告希望能推動整合性的回應機制台灣建立了打炸儀表板上路了還有要深化區域跟國際合作台灣努力在做包括法務部的司法互助但是很遺憾出國的預算都被在野黨的委員山根砍誰在扯台灣打炸的後腿在野黨的委員要反求諸己啊為什麼要跟自己的國家為敵啊下一頁"},{"start":614.659,"end":627.045,"text":"那去年我們努力的在司法法治委員會通過了打炸司法所以在法治的健全我們努力做到有了法治才能夠有政策精良的武器下一頁"},{"start":628.194,"end":641.302,"text":"即便我們預算被砍成這樣這些數字我精準的來整理如果我有錯部長可以指正從去年11月到今年4月我們的打炸的財損金額減少39.9%從126.6億減少到76.2億雖然76.2億還是很高啦"},{"start":651.789,"end":667.779,"text":"我們還是要向詐騙集團宣戰啦但是有努力有效果第二個受理的案件減少百分之十一點五也就是過去一一三年十一月有一萬八千多件的詐騙案件到今年四月已經"},{"start":669.3,"end":696.757,"text":"減到一萬五千九百六十一件但是還不還是讓人家很痛啊我們還是要繼續努力但是請讓我們團隊打炸國家隊努力的成果要告訴社會政府努力在做在詐騙案件跟財損金額逐步降低我的陳述正確嗎正確所以請給政府支持跟力量如果預算沒有被刪被動我相信我們可以做得更好"},{"start":697.987,"end":703.329,"text":"我們可以全面向詐騙集團宣戰而不是現在綁手綁腳預算解凍還要等立法院後續的程序在下一頁而以網路詐騙的猩猩犯罪裡頭因為我們推動了網路的廣告實名制這速發部的業務所以這半年來的網路詐騙的下降假投資廣告下降了31.3%網路購物下降了12.2%假買家"},{"start":727.76,"end":733.502,"text":"的詐騙賣家下降了17.2%假中獎通知也下降了9.27%假交友徵詐騙也下降了24.4%即便我們預算被砍被動但是速發布我們努力做到請問我的數字速發布正確嗎是的 報告委員正確但是我們還是不滿意本席也不滿意 下一頁"},{"start":754.642,"end":778.551,"text":"你們現在防堵網路平台詐騙三個階段第一個我們做到的是落實了廣告實名制今年1月1號上路但是未來要強要擴大對於平台的責任包括要求Meta、Line、Google、YT來訂定他們的防詐防欺的計畫以及要求各個平台提出年度的透明度報告你們現在磋商的如何啊"},{"start":779.091,"end":789.903,"text":"是 報告委員有關於廣告實名制的這個部分呢各平台都已經開始在做而且已經送給我們去做合規的審查我知道 但是後面你要求他們做房地房價計畫是 房地房價計畫的部分呢我們五月底前會審查"},{"start":794.268,"end":814.111,"text":"會現在也陸續送到粉署來太好了 是的這是好消息 平台願意配合是 是 他們願意配合那並且依照這樣的一個房價計畫裡面相關的一個風險的評估跟對應的模式的處理我們也會輔導他們要去合乎他們的房價計畫來做一個進行那到年底的時候就會有一個透明度的報告出來好"},{"start":815.632,"end":837.74,"text":"這是好消息這麼多壞消息當中的好消息我們終於強化跟平台責任的互相公私的協力我期待你們五月提出來的好最後一點喔因為因為預算被刪被動我要提醒你們速發部現在我們我們現在的打架的兩大檢舉平台一個是速發部主管的一個是警政署的165"},{"start":839.561,"end":866.621,"text":"兩個當中其實案件量都很高可是你們人力有限速發部是要用AIAI去做但是預算被砍然後警政署是用人力你們人力很吃力但是兩大平台來收受這個檢舉喔雖然強強聯手可是我覺得你們的借接跟合作不夠多可能都在重複受理同樣的案件所以你們可不可以請指揮中心指揮官來匯整整合一下這兩個平台讓"},{"start":868.923,"end":884.518,"text":"因為也要因應預算 被刪 被凍 速發不就沒頂沒檔啦警政署也一樣啦所以我也認為制度上讓兩大檢舉平台每個月八萬件 想辦法讓他們可以合作分流而不是彼此重疊互相打架 這樣可以嗎"},{"start":885.52,"end":889.883,"text":"可以的沒問題謝謝委員好我們一起努力我們無論如何向詐騙集團宣戰我們要行動預算被刪被砍但是我們的法治已經健全了就做眼前能夠做的事我們要加重300%的努力才能夠補回我們預算被刪被砍人民持續的被詐騙受害的這個狀況我給你們無限的祝福跟打氣加油謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1155,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時23分）謝謝主席。請鄭部長及行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心馬指揮官，數發部的代表也請準備一下。"],["主席：麻煩部長及馬指揮官。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：我今天的主題非常明確：臺灣要成立打詐國家隊，但是在野黨卻在扯後腿嗎？口口聲聲說要打詐、要防詐，今天質詢的委員回去之後就可以剪影片、做圖卡，發文說自己好關心打詐，可是審預算的時候卻大砍預算、大凍預算，讓我們的打詐政策、作為綁手綁腳、動彈不得。","數發部是這一次政府總預算受災最嚴重的，刪凍合併超過七成，也就是剩下三成的錢可以花，當中對於監管網路平臺、落實廣告實名制要打詐就受阻了，然後要開發AI分析網路詐騙系統以減少人力負擔、自動化通報，只剩下三成的錢可以用了。我們要出國交流，國際的情報能夠互相匯報、要司法互助，我們要資安技術的合作，預算只剩三成。內政部警政署也是重災戶，在打詐相關預算裡頭，大刪大凍超過兩成，影響的就是協助人民辨識詐騙的資訊傳播管道，我們要宣傳、我們要政策的配套、我們要人力、我們要物力，還有網路流量紀錄資料庫要對打詐、毒品、槍砲、兒少性侵犯罪業務的推廣，難道因為預算就打八折了嗎？我想請教指揮官，據說指揮中心的預算更慘，到底有多慘？請說明一下。"],["馬指揮官士元：跟委員報告，其實指揮中心所用到的預算不多，大部分都是我們的會議所需要。"],["吳委員思瑤：因為是行政院的業務費被刪嘛！"],["馬指揮官士元：在此也跟委員報告，我們從去年9月份成立到現在，各式會議總共召開了92次，但是我們現在的預算就是每個月剩下9,000塊可以租影印機，其他的預算都沒有了。"],["吳委員思瑤：Pardon me！指揮中心每個月預算剩9,000塊，只可以租影印機？"],["馬指揮官士元：是的。"],["吳委員思瑤：那你要開92場會今年就沒得開了？"],["馬指揮官士元：我們就是開，但是用……"],["吳委員思瑤：「儉腸凹肚」！"],["馬指揮官士元：等於是各自負責的方式。"],["吳委員思瑤：大家聽聽看，請大家告訴大家，行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心的預算被砍到每個月剩9,000塊！我們到底是要支持政府打詐、防詐，還是要讓政府沒有辦法打詐、防詐，然後乾脆向詐騙集團投降好了？我剛剛說數發部的預算七成被刪凍，難道你們的業務以後就打三折了嗎？怎麼辦呢？"],["黃副署長雅萍：報告委員，雖然我們的預算確實是有受到影響……"],["吳委員思瑤：影響打詐非常嚴重對不對？尤其是在網路那一塊。"],["黃副署長雅萍：是的，但我們還是透過公私協力的方式跟網路廣告平臺業者一起來努力。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以讓你們要加倍努力，事倍功半去籌錢、去合作、去拜託民間一起來做？"],["黃副署長雅萍：是，我想民間網路廣告平臺業者應該也有這樣的義務要來幫忙。"],["吳委員思瑤：請問警政署署長，你們怎麼辦啊？以後就請在野黨的委員不要來argue你們的預算、你們的政策，是不是也很嚴重？"],["張署長榮興：對，我們推動的就是在宣導方面讓全民防詐的意識能夠再提升……"],["吳委員思瑤：就沒辦法做了嘛！"],["張署長榮興：這個部分就是刪和凍得比較嚴重一點。"],["吳委員思瑤：然後你的網路流量紀錄資料庫呢？"],["張署長榮興：網路流量資料庫的建置是要去追源頭的相關設備，這部分也是凍得比較多一點，大概凍了8.8億。"],["吳委員思瑤：8.8億嘛，對不對？我現在看到內政部的打詐業務光凍結就是10.8億嘛！"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：天哪！如果說在野黨的委員關心打詐、要向詐騙集團宣戰，結果卻來砍、來刪、來凍預算，那我要說在野黨就是臺灣政治圈最大的詐騙集團！","今天主席安排的會議主題是引用聯合國毒品和犯罪問題辦公室的報告，剛剛我聽到前面部長的回答是說其實它的真實性還待確認，因為它不是官方確認的文件，即便如此，雖然不能盡信，但是一些揭露的事項我們也可以納入政策研議的參考，包括這個報告告訴我們，跨國組織犯罪的生態系已經轉型了，由傳統的毒品轉向工業化的網路詐騙及資安犯罪。這個報告也告訴我們，詐騙集團高度整合化及企業化的運作，虛擬資產、洗錢、人口販運、地下金融、AI都一起，當然魔高一尺道就要高一丈。第三，這個報告也告訴我們，整個犯罪據點是轉向無政府管控或是非國家武裝控制的地區，也就是東南亞地區；這個報告告訴我們，詐騙金額實在是嚇死人，就去年度的報告，光東亞、東南亞就損失370億美元，這是這個報告告訴我們的──可以參考的地方參考，但是不能盡信，也就是不能輕易採信的地方，也請大家不要去渲染。這個報告有把臺灣打成是詐騙之島嗎？剛剛我還看在野黨的委員說：「恭喜、恭喜，臺灣登上世界舞台」。天啊！用這種幸災樂禍的心情來看待我們國家打詐的作為。","部長，您要回答之前，我提醒一下，這個報告我讀到的是，他們在東亞觀察出特殊經濟詐騙園區，就是金三角的緬甸、柬埔寨和寮國，而我們臺灣的角色是受害者來源國之一，也就是我們是受害國家。當然，臺灣跟個案的關聯有關，但是臺灣絕對不是這個報告的主體。以我整理報告內各國出現的頻率，中國最高，在整篇報告當中，中國被提到102次，臺灣被提到26次，泰國、日本、寮國、緬甸、柬埔寨、菲律賓被提到的次數都高於臺灣。所以如果在野黨的委員引用這個報告，說國際證實了臺灣就是全球最嚴重、東南亞最慘的詐騙之島，部長，這是事實嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是。這個報告算是對我們非常地不友善，但這個報告其實它的來源，我們也是……"],["吳委員思瑤：它搞不好也是一個詐騙，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外，它裡面最主要講的都是東亞和東南亞各國的情形，當然也把臺灣寫進去，但是最主要的是講有4個案件主要的嫌犯或者什麼曾經跟臺灣有關聯……"],["吳委員思瑤：是，臺灣是案件關聯國。"],["鄭部長銘謙：譬如在20年前或幾十年前在臺灣居住或那個人來自臺灣，但是他已經落籍在東南亞的國家或者在秘魯……"],["吳委員思瑤：因為個案有提及臺灣的關聯。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，有4個個案。"],["吳委員思瑤：但是整個通篇報告告訴我們，其實臺灣在報告當中的身分是受害者來源國之一，臺灣被提及的頻率26次，中國被提到102次，其他國家的防詐……恐怕他們面對的情勢比我們更險峻，但是我們臺灣絕對要加強，因為詐騙集團就是人民心中共同承受非常大的壓力，我們必須做。","所以對應於這個防詐報告的五大建議，我沒有時間細講，但事實上，第一點，提高政治層級的關注，行政院做到了，卓院長宣告成立了防詐行動綱領2.0，我們成立了打詐國家隊。第二點，這個報告提出要強化制度與監管工具。以及第三點，執法與技術的能力要upgrade，我們修了打詐四法，有新的武器，包括M化車、GPS追蹤、網路流量紀錄可以調取，我們都做到了。然後這個報告希望能推動整合性的回應機制，臺灣建立的「打詐儀錶板」上路了；還有要深化區域與國際合作，臺灣努力在做，包括法務部的司法互助，但是很遺憾，出國的預算都被在野黨的委員刪跟凍，誰在扯臺灣打詐的後腿？在野黨的委員要反求諸己，為什麼要跟自己的國家為敵？","去年我們努力地在司法及法制委員會通過了打詐四法，所以在法制的健全上，我們努力做到。有了法制，才能夠有政策、精良的武器。即便我們的預算被砍成這樣，這些數字我精準地整理，如果我有錯，部長可以指正。從去年11月到今年4月，我們的打詐財損金額減少39.9%，從126.6億減少到76.2億。雖然76.2億還是很高，我們還是要向詐騙集團宣戰，但是有努力、有效果。第二個，受理的案件減少11.5%，也就是過去113年11月有一萬八千多件詐騙案件，到今年4月已經減到1萬5,961件，但是還是讓人很痛，我們還是要繼續努力，請讓我們團隊、打詐國家隊努力的成果要告訴社會，政府努力在做，詐騙案件及財損金額逐步降低。我的陳述正確嗎？"],["張署長榮興：正確。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以請給政府支持跟力量。如果預算沒有被刪、被凍，我相信我們可以做得更好，我們可以全面向詐騙集團宣戰，而不是現在綁手綁腳，預算解凍還要等立法院後續的程序。","在網路詐騙的新興犯罪裡頭，因為我們推動了網路的廣告實名制，這是數發部的業務，所以這半年來網路詐騙下降，假投資廣告下降了31.3%，網路購物下降了19.2%，假買家詐騙賣家下降了17.2%，假中獎通知下降了9.27%，假交友真詐騙也下降了24.4%。即便我們預算被砍、被凍，但是我們數發部努力做到。請問數發部，我的數字正確嗎？"],["黃副署長雅萍：報告委員，正確。"],["吳委員思瑤：但是我們還是不滿意，本席也不滿意。你們現在防堵網路平臺詐騙三階段：第一個，我們做到的是落實了廣告實名制，今年1月1日上路，但是未來要擴大對於平臺的責任，包括要求Meta、LINE、Google、YT訂定他們的防詐防欺計畫，以及要求各個平臺提出年度的透明度報告，你們現在磋商得如何？"],["黃副署長雅萍：報告委員，有關於廣告實名制的部分，各平臺都已經開始在做，而且也已經送給我們做合規的審查……"],["吳委員思瑤：我知道，但是後面你要求他們做防欺防詐計畫跟透明度。"],["黃副署長雅萍：是，防欺防詐計畫的部分，我們在5月底以前會審查，因為現在也陸續送到本署來。"],["吳委員思瑤：他們送來了？太好了，這是好消息，平臺願意配合。"],["黃副署長雅萍：是，他們願意配合。並且依照這樣的防詐計畫，對於裡面相關的風險評估及對應模式的處理，我們也會輔導他們要合乎他們的防詐計畫來進行，到年底的時候就會有一個透明度的報告出來。"],["吳委員思瑤：就提出透明度報告，這是好消息，這麼多壞消息當中的好消息，我們終於強化跟平臺責任互相公私的協力，我期待你們5月提出來。","最後一點，因為預算被刪、被凍，我要提醒你們，現在打詐的兩大檢舉平臺，一個是數發部主管的，一個是警政署的165，兩個的案件量其實都很高，可是你們人力有限，數發部要用AI去做，但是預算被砍；警政署是用人力，你們的人力很吃力。兩大平臺收受檢舉雖然是強強聯手，可是我覺得你們的介接跟合作不夠多，可能都在重複受理同樣的案件，所以你們可不可以請指揮中心、指揮官來彙整、整合一下這兩個平臺？也要因應預算被刪、被凍，因為數發部已經「袂振袂動」了，警政署也一樣，所以我也認為制度上兩大檢舉平臺每個月有8萬件的檢舉，應該想辦法讓他們可以合作分流，而不是彼此重疊、互相打架，這樣可以嗎？"],["馬指揮官士元：可以的，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我們一起努力，我們無論如何都要向詐騙集團宣戰，我們要行動！即便預算被刪、被凍，但是我們的法制已經健全了，就做眼前能夠做的事。我們要加重百分之三百的努力，才能夠補回我們預算被刪、被凍，解決人民持續地被詐騙、受害的狀況。我給你們無限的祝福跟打氣，加油！謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","今天的會議持續進行至所有委員詢答完畢為止。","剛剛我們有宣告吳思瑤委員詢答完畢之後休息5分鐘，我們就休息。不好意思，因為之前就已經宣告了，跟兩位委員說聲抱歉。現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時39分）","繼續開會（11時44分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","下一位請林月琴委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","吳思瑤","麥玉珍","李坤城","林月琴","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","林倩綺","沈發惠","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":423,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心指揮官、內政\n部警政署署長、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就\n「臺灣遭聯合國警示為東亞、東南亞跨國詐欺集團據點之檢討與防範，及打詐四法與相關子法施\n行後之具體成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00008"}}},{"id":"161015","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161015","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e064108fe656be531256a086056f51b23eb3464f2517af749f03f69a6de72969f305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"11:22:24 - 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因為我們未來想要開始發展國際合作那我們就要考慮要不要跟美國合作因為這一點就是所謂的影響好 我想除了國際合作還有這個交流很重要嘛那當然這也會影響到說雖然現在我們自己自製的國片進軍到美國的片子不太多但我們總是希望"},{"start":91.485,"end":120.866,"text":"就有朝一日我們的國片的這個水準啦我們的製作啦我們的成果啦可以在世界各地不管美國歐洲而且我們都可以進軍我想這一定是一個我們的長遠的目標遠大的理想我們希望去達成嘛所以我想這個都是有短中長期的一個影響那第二個呢除了說我們自己的國片進去以後會百分之百的課稅之外那針對於美國也提到說如果他們的自己的這個製片是在美國以外的地方喔"},{"start":121.286,"end":145.272,"text":"取景或者制作或是哪些地方有参与到是不是也会在这个课税范围之内文化部第一个有没有去了解第二个如果是的话这个影响真的很大其实我们有很多的美国的骗子他在我们这边去取景对于双方的交流对于提升台湾的国际能见度都是很好的所以到底什么课税范围这部分部长有了解吗"},{"start":146.212,"end":158.062,"text":"其實我覺得川普當年講這個百分之百的割稅他裡面的更詳細的情況我們真的沒有辦法了解因為他沒有再往下講包括您剛才講他鼓勵大家"},{"start":159.192,"end":175.609,"text":"他其實是鼓勵所有的美國變回美國拍攝不要到紐西蘭澳洲各國去拍他想用這個方式來抵制可是事實上因為這樣子結果他成本會變更高等等所以我們文化部所接到的是那個訊息大概就是這樣子"},{"start":176.59,"end":205.12,"text":"部長其實您看喔您看我今天提出來就是說你看我們來台取景拍攝的國際電影其實不少喔那從我現在看到不管台北催淨令啊 露西啊什麼等等很多那事實上喔我覺得對於就是我們台灣電影的這個鼓勵啊跟雙方的交流我覺得都有達到一定的這個目標啦所以其實在這個川普發表說我們課徵百分之百的相關電影的關稅喔文化部在第一時間本期看到我們的回應是說"},{"start":205.72,"end":225.842,"text":"我們會去了解這個關稅政策所包含的範圍然後會去研擬因應的一個方案不過剛才我在跟部長交換意見當中我們顯然我們也不知道恐怕連自己好萊塢的媒體產業都一頭霧水那我們怎麼去了解又怎麼去因應呢有沒有一個短期上面我們的想法"},{"start":226.755,"end":253.403,"text":"有其實文化部本來就有一個單位是經貿小組其實我就在前幾年我們自己開了會決定把各種可能就是跟美國之間的那種有可能那個輸入的文創產品將來萬一課稅變多了我們怎麼因應其實我們有在做只是因為事實上我們真的輸進美國的電影譬如說這幾年只有五六部就它那個加起來的那個"},{"start":254.703,"end":260.168,"text":"票房五六千萬好 沒關係 部長這樣我了解目前我們當然是比較少啦我們分兩個嘛第一個就是我們輸出到美國去的這個電影第二個就是說他來取景的部分 這都是有影響的那是不是會後請 文化部這邊提供給我們說你們模擬的這幾個狀態大概是要怎麼因應那我想會後給我一份這樣的資料那另外我想"},{"start":278.963,"end":304.573,"text":"我们这一次立法院有朝野的委员访美团这个委员同仁回来有讲到说我国应该是关税谈判第一群四国也就是台日韩越我们会在这里面所以看起来我们这个谈判很快就会来到关于这样的一个情形我们有没有向行政院台美贸易谈判小组去反映说到时候是不是要顺便把电影的关税纳入这个谈判当中"},{"start":305.493,"end":318.103,"text":"沒有耶 因為我覺得我剛剛在前面也解釋過在WTO之後因為我們對美國的讓步之後台灣電影幾乎是被消滅的所以我也不知道我們能夠"},{"start":319.022,"end":320.483,"text":"我們主動提供一些我們可以想像的狀況提供給行政院"},{"start":342.082,"end":359.073,"text":"好 那部長再來我想文化部最近其實這幾年為了我們國產電影的量跟值就是產量跟品質的提升那我們也提這個國產電影長短片的一個輔導金這輔導金顯然其實都蠻重要的但我們看一下這個數據從111年的76部到113年的83部我們看到量是增加了那這個增加跟輔導金有沒有關係 您認為"},{"start":368.671,"end":395.758,"text":"當然是有因為我覺得有直接關係我們看到在文化部自己的資料上面還有顯示接受文化部輔導金的國產電影數量其實是呈現下降的趨勢的所以您剛剛說是有關係但我們看到有接受文化部自己的這個輔導金的數量是下降的那我們看到111年接受國片輔導金有57部113年下降到51部那這個意味什麼這第一件事"},{"start":396.178,"end":423.652,"text":"第二个我们再来看到虽然辅导金的补助案件刚刚本席有提到是下降的可是我们看到你整体辅导金的金额并没有下降反而是上升从111年的补助3.6亿提升到4亿那这是什么一个情况是因为我们要刻意减少补助的量让我们受补助的金额增加还是评选上面有什么问题这个补助的方向是什么能不能部长提一下这两个数字"},{"start":424.252,"end":445.233,"text":"好 簡單講其實我們在福島上我們不但沒有減少還把上限從三千提到五千但是我覺得這根本的問題還是在民間的資金因為我們大概都只能給他到一半我們不可能給他全部嘛那剩下的那一半他要去找到有人願意投資那願意投資的人一定看到回收那電影的確是一個沒有辦法在"},{"start":448.041,"end":474.83,"text":"承諾那個投資者一定有回收的所以他被減少有各種原因部長我能理解你現在要講的喔但是呢我覺得你還是去看一下因為我們並不是他送上來我們全部都合嘛所以其實我們合的量其實是有下降的啦但是我們雖然合的量是下降的結果呢我們自己的輔導金的總預算是往上的所以這一點很奇怪部長針對這個有說法嗎還是要會後你要把資料再給我一下"},{"start":475.547,"end":490.709,"text":"這個部分有各種原因 譬如說我們會選比較少一點是因為過去的經驗就是你選太多結果他都沒有完成所以我們的評審委員可能會挑選一些他判斷上會完成的影片這個各種原因"},{"start":491.389,"end":502.623,"text":"我想針對各種原因就是未來我們這個輔導金其實要更公開透明一些我們希望盡量的來輔導但是怎麼做這個機制我覺得要更清楚那再來我想我們的國產電影在國際影展當中的獲獎數"},{"start":506.187,"end":534.807,"text":"其实我觉得它也是一个就是我们正面去看待我们的电影的一个的这个状况所以呢我们看到逐年有提升从111年的8部电影获得了10个奖项到112年13部电影获得了18个奖项113年13部电影更获得23个奖项我想这是非常值得赞许的但是我们看到在国际影展获奖的电影里面得到文化部得到文化部国产电影辅导金的真的是"},{"start":535.687,"end":554.156,"text":"沒有幾部寥寥可數你看到我們在111年剛說的獲獎當中八部只有兩部112年的十三部也只有四部那113年的十三部獲獎電影當中也僅有六部 二分之一都不到所以能不能在這裡說明一下為什麼我們獲獎這個成績其實很好但我們的輔導金是不是沒有給予幫助或者方向是錯誤的"},{"start":563.508,"end":580.199,"text":"這點我沒有辦法立刻回答的原因是我也不太了解他沒有拿到輔導金然後他得了獎但是我必須承認我來以後我想說剛剛你講到機制譬如說評審委員用什麼東西怎麼組成然後他到底要給哪一種電影比較商業還是比較藝術這個我覺得"},{"start":582.981,"end":597.538,"text":"那這樣子好不好謝謝部長其實您對於您不太了解的狀況我覺得也是直訴的回答那就是我們共同面對這樣的問題那本席既然把它提出來了我覺得值得這個部長去了解看看那是不是能夠在一個月之內"},{"start":598.118,"end":615.374,"text":"把今天我所提的問題當中你也發現說這個外委員提出來的問題的確是一個問題在我們怎麼樣讓輔導金的機制更透明然後剛剛本席所提到的說獲獎無數但是其實我們給的輔導金又這麼少那整個原因是什麼我們怎麼去做改善一個月之內跟本席書面的答覆可以嗎"},{"start":616.315,"end":636.975,"text":"其實我們多了一個文策院之後有些不是文策院他在投資這是我猜想因為我看這幾部感覺不可能自己拍可能是文策院有投資那輔導金是兩個不同的機制我想我們整理一下部長就是整體的因素我們用素面一個月之內跟北溪回覆一個月可以嗎可以因為這個我蠻完整的謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":552,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（11時22分）謝謝召委。有請李遠部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：萬委員，你好。"],["萬委員美玲：部長好。日前本席有質詢文化部，那時候我才說到娛樂文創產業受到關稅的影響是最少的，當時有講出一些背景，同時我也有要求文化部跟文策院，在投資上要非常謹慎。我們才剛談完這個議題就看到，美國川普總統馬上在週一宣布，要針對所有在美國以外製作的電影課徵100%的關稅，這件事情其實影響蠻大的。當然部長好像也有提到，事實上，現在臺灣製作的電影不多，不過我想部長是不是還是認為會影響到影視產業的發展？"],["李部長遠：會，因為我們未來想要開始發展國際合作，就要考慮要不要跟美國合作，而這一點就是所謂的影響。"],["萬委員美玲：除了國際合作，還有交流很重要，當然這也會影響到，雖然現在我們自己自製的國片進軍到美國的不多，但我們總是希望就有朝一日國片的水準、製作、成果，在世界各地，不管美國、歐洲，也許都可以進軍，這一定是一個我們長遠的目標、遠大的理想，我們希望去達成，所以我想這些都是有短、中、長期的影響。","第二個、除了我們自己的國片進去以後會課100%的稅之外，如果美國自己的片子是在美國以外的地方取景或者製作，或是哪些地方有參與到，是不是也會在課稅範圍之內？第一個、文化部有沒有去了解。第二個、如果是的話，這個影響真的很大。其實有很多美國的片子在我們這邊取景，對於雙方的交流、對於提升臺灣在國際的能見度都是很好的。到底怎麼課稅、範圍，部長有了解嗎？"],["李部長遠：我覺得川普當時講課稅100%，裡面更詳細的情況我們真的沒有辦法了解。"],["萬委員美玲：現在還是不了解？"],["李部長遠：因為他沒有再往下講，包括您剛才講他鼓勵大家，他其實是鼓勵所有的美國片回美國拍攝，不要到紐西蘭、澳洲各國去拍，他想用這個方式來抵制。可是事實上因為這樣，結果成本會變更高等等，文化部所接到的訊息大概就是這樣。"],["萬委員美玲：部長，您看一下我今天提出來的，來臺取景拍攝的國際電影其實不少，不管是《台北追緝令》、《露西》等等。事實上，對於臺灣電影的鼓勵跟雙方的交流，我覺得都有達到一定的目標。川普發表電影要課徵100%的關稅，本席看到文化部在第一時間的回應是，你們會去了解這個關稅政策所包含的範圍，然後會研擬因應的方案。不過剛才在我跟部長交換意見當中，顯然我們不知道，恐怕連好萊塢的媒體產業都一頭霧水，那我們怎麼去了解，又要怎麼去因應呢？我們短期有沒有一個想法？"],["李部長遠：有，文化部本來就有一個單位是經貿小組，就在前幾天我們自己開了會，決定把各種跟美國之間有可能輸入的文創產品，將來萬一課稅變多了，我們怎麼因應？其實我們有在做，只是因為事實上我們真的輸進美國的電影，譬如這幾年只有五、六部，加起來的票房約五、六千萬，就是說……"],["萬委員美玲：沒關係，這樣我了解，目前我們當然是比較少。我們分兩個，第一個就是我們輸出到美國的電影，第二個就是他來取景的部分，這都是有影響的，是不是會後請文化部提供給我們，你們模擬的這幾個狀態大概是要怎麼因應？會後給我一份這樣的資料。"],["李部長遠：好。"],["萬委員美玲：另外，這一次立法院朝野委員有訪美團，委員同仁回來有講到，我國應該是關稅談判第1群4國，也就是臺、日、韓、越，我們會在這裡面，所以看起來這個談判很快就會來到。關於這樣的情形，你們有沒有向行政院臺美貿易談判小組反映，到時候是不是要順便把電影的關稅納入談判當中？"],["李部長遠：沒有，因為我剛剛在前面也解釋過，在WTO之後，因為我們對美國讓步，臺灣電影幾乎是被消滅的，所以我也不知道我們能夠……"],["萬委員美玲：本席希望我們在文化上的努力是全面的，我們看到的問題都是全面想辦法去解決，所以我認為還是可以反映一下，我們能夠多談一下，對雙方電影的交流都是好事，所以這個可以反映一下嗎？"],["李部長遠：我想我們主動提供一些我們可以想像的狀況給行政院，也提供給……"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝。","再來，文化部最近幾年為了國產電影的量跟質，就是產量跟品質的提升也提供國產電影長短片的輔導金。輔導金顯然蠻重要的，但我們看一下這個數據，從111年的76部到113年的83部，我們看到量是增加了，您認為這個增加跟輔導金有沒有關係？"],["李部長遠：當然是有，因為我覺得……"],["萬委員美玲：有關係？好。"],["李部長遠：有直接關係。"],["萬委員美玲：我們看到在文化部自己的資料上面還有顯示，接受文化部輔導金的國產電影數量其實呈現下降的趨勢，雖然您剛剛說有關係，但我們看到有接受文化部輔導金的數量是下降的。111年接受國片輔導金的有57部，113年下降到51部，這個意味什麼？這是第一件事。第二個、剛剛本席有提到輔導金的補助案件雖然是下降的，可是我們看到整體輔導金的金額並沒有下降，反而是上升，從111年補助3.6億提升到4億，這是什麼情況？是因為要刻意減少補助的量，讓受補助的金額增加，還是評選上有什麼問題？這個補助的方向是什麼？部長能不能提一下這兩個數字？"],["李部長遠：好，簡單講，我們在輔導上不但沒有減少，還把上限從3,000萬提到5,000萬，但是我覺得根本的問題還是在民間的資金，因為我們大概都只能給到一半，不可能給全部，於是剩下的那一半要找到有人願意投資，但願意投資的人一定看回收，而電影的確是沒有辦法承諾投資者一定有回收，所以它被減少有各種原因……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，我能理解你現在要講的，但是我覺得你還是去看一下，因為並不是它送上來，我們全部都核，所以我們核的量其實是有下降的，但是雖然核的量是下降的，結果我們自己的輔導金總預算是往上的，所以這一點很奇怪，部長，針對這部分有說法嗎？還是會後你再把資料給我？"],["李部長遠：這個部分有各種原因，譬如我們會選比較少一點是因為過去的經驗就是選太多，結果它都沒有完成，所以我們的評審委員可能會挑選一些在判斷上會完成的影片，有各種原因。"],["萬委員美玲：好，部長，針對各種原因，未來我們的輔導金其實要更公開透明一些，我們希望儘量來輔導，但是怎麼做的機制，我覺得要更清楚。","再來，我們的國產電影在國際影展當中的獲獎數逐年提升，我覺得也是能支持我們正面看待我們的電影。我們看到從111年8部電影獲得10個獎項；到112年13部電影獲得18個獎項；113年13部電影更獲得23個獎項，我想這是非常值得讚許的，但是我們看到在國際影展獲獎的電影裡面，得到文化部國產電影輔導金的電影真的是沒有幾部，寥寥可數。你看到在111年剛剛說獲獎的電影當中，8部只有兩部，112年的13部也只有4部，113年的13部獲獎電影當中也僅有6部，二分之一都不到，所以能不能在這裡說明一下，為什麼我們獲獎的成績其實很好，但我們的輔導金是不是沒有給予幫助或者方向是錯誤的？"],["李部長遠：這點我沒有辦法立刻回答的原因是我也不太了解它沒有拿到輔導金，但它得了獎，我必須承認我來以後，剛剛您講到機制，譬如評審委員怎麼組成，然後他到底要給哪一種電影？比較商業還是比較藝術？這個我覺得……"],["萬委員美玲：這樣子好不好？謝謝部長，其實您對於不太了解的狀況就是直述回答，我們共同面對這樣的問題。"],["李部長遠：對、好。"],["萬委員美玲：本席既然把它提出來，我覺得值得部長去了解看看。"],["李部長遠：好。"],["萬委員美玲：是不是能夠在一個月之內，針對今天我所提的問題當中，你也發現萬委員提出來的問題的確是一個問題，我們怎麼樣讓輔導金的機制更透明，剛剛本席所提到獲獎電影無數，但是其實我們給的輔導金又這麼少，整個原因是什麼，我們怎麼去做改善？在一個月之內，給本席書面答復，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：可以，其實我們多了一個文策院之後，有些是文策院來投資，這是我猜想，因為我看這幾部感覺不可能自己拍，可能是文策院有投資，跟輔導金是兩個不同的機制，我們整理一下，好不好？"],["萬委員美玲：好，部長，就整體的因素，你們用書面一個月之內給本席回復。"],["李部長遠：好，沒問題，一個月可以嗎？因為這個我們滿完整的，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員，部長請回。","接下來請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-10","speakers":["林宜瑾","郭昱晴","劉書彬","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","柯志恩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳秀寳","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","葉元之","范雲","蘇巧慧","黃捷","陳培瑜","邱志偉"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算解凍案49案","agenda_id":"1144601_00005"}}},{"id":"161014","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161014","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e06354caa030eec6ef91c005f00a3db85f73464f2517af749f02615cb29b12c03265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:16:36 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馬上請找經濟部常務次長"},{"start":11.393,"end":31.103,"text":"市長好 最近大家都在關心說現在匯率台幣升值到很快那之前政府曾經有編列一個4100億的特別預算然後框列了931億是針對川普的關稅政策對於產業影響的一些因應作為我想問一下930億當初在評估的時候是純粹針對關稅"},{"start":35.965,"end":39.472,"text":"還是有沒有把可能廠商的賄損的損失把它評估進來所編列的預算"},{"start":42.839,"end":65.233,"text":"我們這裡面剛剛委員所說的我們包括對於中小微企業包括他調度的這個需求裡面其實我們已經有涵蓋在裡面了我說賄損的部分因為這個所謂他所謂的調度的需求資金調度的需求原因非常多種但我們不會去列舉說他完全是因為賄損因為你如果說純粹針對關稅"},{"start":69.055,"end":97.275,"text":"是一回事然後另外匯損又是另外一回事因為有一些廠商他出口過去他要報價報價完之後忽然發現台幣升值他賣出去之後換回台幣他就虧了所以評估的方式不一樣要很精準而不是說隨便匡列一個就看你需要多少所以你有把所以市長是有把匯損這塊列進來有嗎我們基本上特別的條例是針對對等關稅影響之下"},{"start":98.095,"end":111.172,"text":"各項的產業需求這邊包括廠商的資金的調度所以有針對我剛剛講的部分嗎還有包括財政的支持的部分所以是有那我想問一下"},{"start":113.092,"end":136.241,"text":"事先經濟部在評估這件事情的時候有想到可能我們台幣會升值到這麼快嗎事先我們有跟廠商進行包括部內非常多的座談但廠商會知道說其實為了那個經濟分析的那個scenario有考慮這件事情經濟部有沒有得到消息就是說美國可能會希望我們升息會嗎"},{"start":137.369,"end":164.761,"text":"因為我昨天看那個韓國的央行的負責人都已經出來講他說美國可能會希望亞洲貨幣升值那你們進一步有沒有得到這個消息然後去做一些產業的評估有嗎禮拜一的時候針對於費率包括央行的總裁包括總統都已經發表了談話那這個部分沒有沒有我不在講談話我說事先有得到這個消息所以做出因應之道然後去做評估不是 這個是一個"},{"start":166.482,"end":190.963,"text":"像昨天他的這個生殖的幅度就稍微的收斂那所以基本上他這個現象我們怎麼我們既然不是說所謂的費率的操縱國家我怎麼會事先會去知道這個消息啊也不會啊那個韓國的他們就說美國希望有這個壓力啊對啊所以我就問說你們有沒有嘛人家就可以知道我們就不知道"},{"start":192.083,"end":204.562,"text":"當然是可以知道不然別人為什麼會知道我們國家央行在進行它所謂的匯率因為央行匯率的它為什麼要做調節它做調節的目的是不希望我們產業忽然間受到很大的衝擊所以這個跟經濟部業務也會相關"},{"start":208.496,"end":223.1,"text":"所以怎麼會講的跟經濟部都好像跟你們都沒關係一樣咧那這樣子政府怎麼會給外界信心表示說我們可以來面對國際不管是經濟或是貨幣的變化所造成的衝擊呢好 沒關係 次長我再跟你請教別的問題因為"},{"start":224.981,"end":249.095,"text":"昨天媒體很關注就是部長 郭志威部長他在請AIT吃飯或是在宴客的時候在自家公司嘛那後來經濟部是有澄清說沒有圖利問題因為所有的錢都是郭部長自掏腰包自掏腰包應該就是用他個人的錢拿出來付嘛那想問次長在跟AIT吃飯那一場你本人有在現場嗎沒有你沒有去齁"},{"start":249.855,"end":275.76,"text":"那我想問,經濟部是不是請客吃飯,通常都是部長出錢?都自己出錢?我們部長他從企業家投入到公職,他確實犧牲了很多,包括他很多的對於國發展的請客的部分我現在只是想要了解說,那是不是自從部長,你也是剛到經濟部嘛?"},{"start":276.704,"end":292.862,"text":"到今後多久我一直在經濟部的三級機關三十幾年一直在經濟部的三級機關我是說現在到長治多久我從三月多所以在跟郭部長接觸的過程當中是不是只要經濟部驗客都是他自己自掏腰包"},{"start":294.311,"end":319.221,"text":"這個我並不清楚那為什麼這一場就是請AIT吃飯因為他的邀請函發出去基本上部長經常他自己掏腰包來請我們的同仁甚至是買禮物靠場同仁是一回事靠場同仁是一回事那靠場同仁也有可能用課資費啦我現在問的是為什麼用經濟部的邀請函發出去邀請AIT來吃飯明明就是經濟部的活動"},{"start":319.921,"end":341.559,"text":"但部長要自掏腰包 是為什麼這個是經濟部的慣例嗎 還是怎麼樣並沒有那為什麼只有這幾場是他自掏腰包並不是說因為他那幾場 郭部長進入到經濟部以來他一直是拿他自己包括在外面所包括他自己的這個資產的部分"},{"start":344.82,"end":359.26,"text":"這讓人家很怪嘛而且你會讓其他的部長覺得說哇 原來經濟部長這麼大方這個明明就應該要公帑的費用哇 是經濟部發的邀請函 宴請AIT原來是要部長"},{"start":360.061,"end":384.821,"text":"自掏腰包而且二十幾萬欸不是他是一個企業家所以企業要自己出錢這很奇怪他非常的慷慨而且非常的真誠他做任何的事情絕對不會虛偽造假我沒有說他虛偽造假你為什麼要好像忽然間提到這個我只是在講這個機制問題因為大家覺得怪啊明明就是政府的宴會那為什麼部長自己出錢"},{"start":386.164,"end":406.653,"text":"所以我想問說這是經濟部的慣例還是有什麼特殊狀況所以昨天連卓院長都說要查了嘛不知道說現在查的狀況怎樣可能你這個也給卓院長很大的壓力超越我的理解範圍了超過你的理解範圍對好 謝謝謝謝葉研師 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部長好 辛苦了這個本席先請教那有一位政治人物他講這個與其去打壓罷免不如來好好的來打炸那你對這句話的看法怎麼樣謝謝委員那個打炸是非常非常重要的那這個罷免這個是因為腐蝕人民那個民主政治的儲值所以是非常重要而且你圍繞一個鼠鴨救一個被害人"},{"start":45.686,"end":60.256,"text":"那圍繞很多人這可能會影響很多的民主政治他我們用票選出來的這些的候選人那我想這個嚴重影響這個民主政治的因為我們是一個民主一個是一個透過選舉罷免讓我們人民的參政權"},{"start":62.777,"end":81.121,"text":"能夠落實這才是民主法治國家那委員剛剛講的說這樣的有些關心那個打仗當然我們打仗的確是很嚴重權勢很重而且我們在台灣我們不希望打仗成為全民之痛所以我們將心比心我們雖然沒有被騙但是因為我們的辦案人員能夠體系說這個詐騙這個是讓我們的社會的穩定"},{"start":88.991,"end":104.672,"text":"非常的嚴重所以我們是全力的打詐所以部長意思是說去查偽造連署的去查死人連署的跟打詐是一樣重要嗎都非常重要都一樣重要一個是侵蝕這個我們民主法制的基礎那另外詐騙呢死不安定嘛"},{"start":106.074,"end":129.273,"text":"每個人不管是你本身或是說你的親朋好友可能都有類似這個案件那我就來問你 因為今天的題目有提到說這個聯合國毒品跟犯罪問題辦公室它有一個infraction point這個報告那早上有很多委員都問過那因為還有提到說是台灣那我先請問一下這份報告到底真實性如何"},{"start":129.713,"end":145.754,"text":"那跟他上面所提到不論是幫派或是說這個線上的博弈這個BG1 BG2等等之類的你們有去了解這個整個情況是怎麼樣嗎那如果跟他所描述的不實的話有沒有管道去做澄清跟說明"},{"start":146.598,"end":169.859,"text":"那這部分的確說來自聯合國毒品及犯罪問題的一個辦公室下載的但這些報告有說明這份報告雖然是由員工跟專家編寫但內容沒有經過正式的編輯跟確認所以不代表這個辦公室的當然它不代表是另外一回事我是說它寫的這個東西有沒有符合現實的狀況"},{"start":172.192,"end":198.632,"text":"這個沒有符合現實的就是說它所寫描述的東西它這個都是跟台灣你們所了解的現實的是不是完全是不一樣的是不一樣的而且這裡面的話它是沒有政府關鍵文件所以這個一個立場雖然是有提到說什麼涉及到毒品那個詐欺什麼幫派的但是這裡面也沒有人名也沒有那個公司名所以我們也試圖去了解去注意當然我們一直持續在注意"},{"start":201.354,"end":228.12,"text":"所以就像哈索提到說有什麼這個線上博弈BG1 BG2然後了解一些幫派等等你們 據你們了解沒有像他這一個這個調查局我們也是請調查局有就一個了解嘛當然有些三合會的那一部分當然我也做一個法辦了嘛但也不是因為這份報告我們才去法辦而且我們一直持續在注意幫派那如果像部長所講就是說哈索裡面所這些報告的內容其實"},{"start":232.282,"end":247.349,"text":"那如果說這個是跟現狀不符的話有沒有管道去做澄清跟說明因為這個其實這個報告出來那不管怎麼樣因為他是掛一個聯合國的一個報告嘛一個毒品犯罪問題這個辦公室的一個報告有沒有管道去澄清跟去說明"},{"start":248.129,"end":270.669,"text":"目前台灣的狀況是怎麼樣我想我們在查證後我們再做一個澄清那我想如果有的話那我們當然要檢討不論是法務部調查局或是警政署要做檢討那如果沒有的話我認為還是要去做個說明因為這對於台灣的這個形象會有影響還把這個台灣跟這些東南亞一些國家掛在一起那好像說我們台灣的這些問題跟他們一樣有嚴重啊"},{"start":272.284,"end":286.813,"text":"而且他是掛一個POC 這個是對我們非常不友善的這又是另外一個問題啦那另外我想請教一下 那個我們這個馬市長 你現在是這個哪吒中心的指揮官嘛那部長這個先請回"},{"start":295.68,"end":313.799,"text":"這個五月四號媒體有披露說這個詐團利用這個監理服務網的電子郵件然後說你這個民眾有交通違規預期的那附一個email給你然後點進去之後那其實就是一個釣魚的網站然後要收集你的個資那其實我在四月初的時候就收到澄清"},{"start":314.44,"end":341.045,"text":"就是說他有交通違規但是有交通違規呢他是3月20號他說他沒有做任何的繳款動作暫時在4月4號就收到詐騙的信件所以他高度懷疑啦那會不會說是我們的這個監理所其實也被我不知道是被入侵了被駭客入侵了還是說詐團就是說我們的監理所跟詐團之間是不是有某種程度的配合就是說民眾違規這件事情"},{"start":343.083,"end":364.69,"text":"然後呢他過沒多久他就收到一個一個詐騙的一個信件就是說啊你已經違規了那奇怪了那怎麼詐騙會知道這種違規的事情你們有沒有去了解我跟委員報告我們有收到我們有收到類似的案件那每一次我們收到類似案件基本上我們都會請當事的部會我們會列管而且去找清楚原因那就這個問題這個問題的背後當然一定是跟個資外協有關但是他的管道我們現在還不知道"},{"start":371.912,"end":398.272,"text":"因為對於這個監理單位的這個包括有停車費的問題也包括有剛剛委員提到罰單的問題那我們最近還有很多民眾接到就是醫院要領藥這樣的一個訊息其實我們現在都有在每一次接到這樣的類似的個案的時候我們都會對外發布新聞說明就是有這樣的個案請民眾要注意那當然是一個...這個真的是事後了啦我那時候你要去查"},{"start":398.852,"end":418.172,"text":"他就說那為什麼像監理單位或是說像醫院這些個資會外洩因為這些個資外洩就表示說這有可能是潛在的被詐騙的一些對象啊對所以這個部分跟委員報告我們會跟行政院各支處的籌備處來合作去處理這個問題那所以呢到現在還沒有找到原因在哪裡就對了"},{"start":419.233,"end":442.623,"text":"我們可能後續我們跟那個各支會討論確認以後我們跟委員回報因為他後面的原因蠻複雜的這樣子因為我是比較擔心就是說因為他是監禮站那當監禮站有民眾會覺得說那是公家機關所以他給的一些訊息有些人就是覺得說啊好啦那既然有這個未違規了然後既然有一個這麼簡便的一個方式我可以直接線上交款那可能就被詐騙了啦"},{"start":443.823,"end":468.056,"text":"所以這部分的話我是希望說不論是這個我們的監理站或是說其他我們很多的公家機關我都很擔心都已經各自外洩了這個已經被這個詐團攻陷了那所以我們很多這個民眾的各自都外流那淪為被詐騙的潛在的對象那我覺得這部分要去查清楚你講那個發布什麼新聞那個都是事後的啦"},{"start":468.736,"end":484.255,"text":"對委員這個部分個案能不能把資料給我們我們就直接來處理因為從個案可以追到很多的通案好啊沒問題啊我們每一次只要接到個案我們都會從個案去追通案好所以我這個個案會給你啦好那我不好意思我最後再請教一下這一個正部長齁這個簡單問一下不好意思這個齁"},{"start":489.512,"end":514.87,"text":"貴婦奶奶她這個逃亡七年 吸金上億然後前幾天回來投案那吸金上億結果呢 就兩百萬就交保那她的那個 好像是她的公公吧好像之前也回來投案 五十萬就交保那這個民眾會覺得說 那你詐騙吸金上億然後你花個兩百萬就可以交保那後續這些錢也可能追查不回來啊"},{"start":515.33,"end":530.912,"text":"就民眾會覺得說 那奇怪了 那所以這個詐騙是一門好生意嗎我可以吸金上業人 然後反正我交保就只有兩百萬那最後刑責 也不知道怎麼樣啦那我就覺得說 這方面的話 對於民眾來講社會觀感是非常的不好啦"},{"start":533.319,"end":562.011,"text":"局長這個交保金是回來投案之後就給他交保兩百萬那檢察官給他限制出境出海給他做電子監控那我想是不是要羈押我想這個我也只能說我尊重沒有我是尊重啦我是講說整體的社會觀感我沒有去介入說這一個到底是兩百萬還是五百萬還是一千萬我不是指這個意思我的意思是說現在為什麼詐騙集團這麼犯呢原因之一就是說他很容易交保"},{"start":562.631,"end":580.981,"text":"然後交保金也很低然後呢 刑責可能也不重那所以說會演變成是說那大家覺得說這個好像投報率很高我想委員的這個寶貴反映民眾的聲音我想陳判決他應該會聽得到好啦 就反映一些民眾的聲音給你們啦好 謝謝 加油啦好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1096,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時13分）謝謝主席，我們請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好，辛苦了。本席先請教，有一位政治人物講：與其去打壓罷免，不如好好地來打詐。你對這句話的看法怎麼樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。打詐是非常、非常重要的，罷免也是因為這會腐蝕民主政治的礎石，所以也非常重要，而且你偽造一個連署就是一個被害人，偽造很多份就可能會影響很多民主政治和我們用票選出來的這些候選人，我想這會嚴重影響到民主政治的……因為我們是透過選舉、罷免讓人民的參政權能夠落實，這才是民主法治國家。","委員剛才講，有些關心打詐的，當然現在的詐騙的確是很嚴重，全世界都很嚴重，而且在臺灣，我們不希望詐騙成為全民之痛，所以我們將心比心，我們雖然沒有被騙，但是因為我們的辦案人員能夠體恤詐騙會讓我們社會的穩定變得非常地嚴重，所以我們要全力地打詐。"],["李委員坤城：部長的意思是，去查偽造連署的、去查死亡連署的跟打詐是一樣地重要。"],["鄭部長銘謙：都非常重要。"],["李委員坤城：都一樣重要嘛！一個是會侵蝕我們民主法治的基礎，另外的一個詐騙呢，當然就是……"],["鄭部長銘謙：社會安定嘛！"],["李委員坤城：每個人不管是你本身還是你的親朋好友，可能都有類似的案件。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["李委員坤城：那我就來問你，因為今天的題目提到聯合國毒品和犯罪問題辦公室有一個Inflection Point的報告，早上也有很多委員都問過，因為它有提到「臺灣」，所以我先請問一下，這份報告的真實性到底是如何？它上面所提到的，不論是幫派或是線上的博弈BG1、BG2等等之類的，你們有去瞭解整個情況是怎麼樣的嗎？如果跟它所描述的有不實的話，有沒有管道去做澄清跟說明？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分的確是來自聯合國毒品及犯罪問題辦公室下載的，但這些報告有說明，這份報告雖然是由員工跟專家編寫的，但內容並沒有經過正式的編輯跟確認，所以不代表辦公室的……"],["李委員坤城：當然，代不代表是另外一回事，但我是說它寫的這個東西有沒有符合現實的狀況？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有符合現實……"],["李委員坤城：就是說它所描述的東西……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個都是……"],["李委員坤城：跟臺灣你們所瞭解的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟現實完全是不一樣的。"],["李委員坤城：是不一樣的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是不一樣的。而且裡面沒有政府關鍵文件，所以這裡的立場雖然有提到涉及到毒品、詐欺、幫派什麼的，但是裡面既沒有人名，也沒有公司名，所以我們也試圖去瞭解、去注意。當然我們也是一直持續在注意，所以……"],["李委員坤城：就像它所提到的，說有什麼線上博弈BG1、BG2，然後還有一些幫派等等，據你們瞭解，並沒有像它……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們也是請調查局去做一個瞭解，當然有些關於三合會的那部分，我們也法辦了，倒也不是因為這份報告我們才去法辦，而是我們一直持續在注意幫派的問題。"],["李委員坤城：好，如果像部長所講的，報告裡面所寫的內容其實……"],["鄭部長銘謙：可信度是還要再查證。"],["李委員坤城：如果這個跟現狀不符的話，有沒有管道去做澄清跟說明？因為這個報告出來，不管怎麼樣畢竟是掛上「聯合國毒品和犯罪問題辦公室」的報告，所以有沒有管道去澄清或去說明目前臺灣的狀況是什麼樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想我們會在查證後再做一個澄清，我想……"],["李委員坤城：對，如果有的話，我們當然要檢討，不論是法務部、調查局或是警政署都要做檢討；如果沒有的話，我認為還是要去做個說明，因為這個對臺灣的形象會有影響。"],["鄭部長銘謙：形象會不好。"],["李委員坤城：它把臺灣跟這些東南亞的一些國家掛在一起，好像我們臺灣的這些問題跟他們一樣很嚴重。"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且它是掛上一個PoC，這對我們來說是非常不友善的。"],["李委員坤城：對，當然，但這又是另外一個問題了。另外，我想請教一下馬次長，你現在是打詐中心的指揮官嘛！部長就先請回。"],["馬指揮官士元：委員午安。"],["李委員坤城：5月4日媒體披露詐團利用監理服務網的電子郵件，說民眾有交通違規逾期，然後附一個email給你，點進去之後其實就是一個釣魚的網站，要蒐集你的個資。其實我在4月初的時候就收到陳情，就是說他有交通違規，但是交通違規的時間是3月20日，他說他沒有做任何繳款的動作，但是在4月4日就收到詐騙的信件，所以他高度懷疑我們的監理所是不是被駭客入侵了？還是我們的監理所跟詐團之間有某種程度的配合？就是說民眾違規這件事情，他過沒多久就收到一個詐騙的信件，說他已經違規了，那就奇怪了，怎麼詐團會知道他違規的事情？你們有沒有去瞭解？"],["馬指揮官士元：跟委員報告，我們有收到類似的案件，每一次我們收到類似的案件，基本上都會請當事的部會列管，而且去找清楚原因。剛剛委員所提到的……"],["李委員坤城：那就這個監理站的問題呢？"],["馬指揮官士元：這個問題的背後當然一定是跟個資外洩有關，但是它的管道我們現在還不知道，因為對於監理單位，包括有停車費的問題，也包括剛剛委員提到罰單的問題，最近還有很多民眾接到醫院要領藥的訊息，其實我們現在每一次接到類似的個案時，都會對外發布新聞說明有這樣的個案，請民眾要注意……"],["李委員坤城：這是事後了啦，我的意思是說你要去查為什麼監理單位或醫院這些個資會外洩？這些個資外洩就表示這是有可能被詐騙的潛在對象啊！"],["馬指揮官士元：對，跟委員報告，我們會跟行政院個資處的籌備處合作去處理這個問題。"],["李委員坤城：所以到現在還沒有找到原因在哪裡就對了？"],["馬指揮官士元：後續我們跟個資會討論確認以後再跟委員回報，因為它後面的原因蠻複雜的。"],["李委員坤城：我比較擔心的是因為它是監理站，有些民眾會覺得監理站是公家機關，所以針對它所給的這些訊息，有些人就會覺得既然自己違規了，然後有一個這麼簡便的方式可以直接線上繳款，那可能就被詐騙了。針對這部分，不論是監理站或其他很多的公家機關，我很擔心都已經個資外洩了，已經被詐團攻陷了，所以很多民眾的個資外流，淪為被詐騙的潛在對象，我覺得這部分要去查清楚。"],["馬指揮官士元：好。"],["李委員坤城：你剛才講發布什麼新聞，那都是事後的啊！"],["馬指揮官士元：委員，關於這部分的個案，能不能把資料給我們，我們就直接來處理，因為從個案可以追到很多的通案。"],["李委員坤城：好啊，沒問題。"],["馬指揮官士元：每一次只要接到個案，我們都會從個案再去追通案。"],["李委員坤城：好，這個個案的資料我會給你。","不好意思，我最後再請教一下鄭部長，貴婦奈奈逃亡7年、吸金上億，然後前幾天回來投案，他吸金上億，結果200萬就交保，他的公公好像之前也回來投案，結果50萬就交保。民眾會覺得詐騙吸金上億，然後花個200萬就可以交保，後續這些錢也可能追查不回來，民眾會覺得很奇怪，所以詐騙是一門好生意嗎？吸金上億，反正交保就只有200萬，最後刑責也不知道怎麼樣，這對於民眾來講，社會觀感是非常不好啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：關於交保金額，的確是他回來投案之後就給他交保200萬，然後檢察官限制他出境、出海，並實施電子監控，至於是不是要羈押，我也只能說我尊重……"],["李委員坤城：我是尊重啦！我是指整體社會觀感，我沒有去介入這到底是要200萬、500萬還是1,000萬，我不是這個意思。我的意思是說，現在詐騙集團這麼氾濫的原因之一就是他很容易交保，而且交保金也很低，然後刑責可能也不重，所以會演變成大家覺得這個好像投報率很高。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員反映民眾的聲音，我想承辦檢察官應該會聽得到。"],["李委員坤城：好啦，就反映一些民眾的聲音給你們啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：加油啦，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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主委"},{"start":391.621,"end":406.788,"text":"尊重罷免團體的這些憤怒尊重罷免團體的這些時程我覺得中選會也必須要有一定的尊照這些法律規定的這些時間來做執行 主委你會不會尊照"},{"start":408.517,"end":427.818,"text":"選罷法裡面目前包含40天查核期包含成案之後20天到60天投票20天裡面的這些裁量他們已經憤怒很久了已經3個月了接下來再40天4個月了希望中選會可以秉公的來處理"},{"start":429.595,"end":454.633,"text":"報告委員每一個案件它的進行的時程不同所以它成案的時間也會有差異所以我剛剛跟你討論的時間就是在我們現在剛剛業務報告裡面有講的20件包含這一周都還在送件的這一些進度裡面我推算的時間主委剛剛也有推算出來是在7月中旬"},{"start":455.473,"end":476.264,"text":"但是他不會是所有的案件都是在那一邊所以可能會有落差那如果沒有補件明顯超過這一些我們現在就可以看到明顯超過百分之一百二一百三的這一些可能就很有機會在七月中旬我們大概是三個原則第一個原則就是必須要合法"},{"start":477.076,"end":504.848,"text":"因為每一個案件就是法律規定在他宣告成立之後20到60天之內要辦理投票這一定要符合法律的規定第二個一定要在這個社會成本的考量之下你這樣不斷地動彎社會輔助最大的成本這當然我們選務機關也不容易看到那第三個還要考慮到我們選務的能量我們可以打幾打"},{"start":506.589,"end":528.003,"text":"所以我們基於這三個考量按照每一個案子進行的時序我們會提到委員會去來做審慎的決定最後他們補考的題目我也講一下啦國民黨提出的公投有兩個一個是反廢死一個是反戰爭"},{"start":530.814,"end":556.225,"text":"大概這兩個但是他的這些內容文字明顯的很難處理讓人很難去做這個公投的投票所以如果立法院提出的違反公投法第二條的公投案第二條就是說他不是法律的覆決他不是立法原則的創制他是重大政策的創制或覆決但是他的重大政策裡面的問句又特別多"},{"start":556.857,"end":562.667,"text":"你沒有辦法讓人民判斷請問中選會要怎麼處理我們還有什麼救濟的手段"},{"start":563.335,"end":589.032,"text":"中選會是依法來執行職務他如果違反第二條立法院根據公民投票法15條第二項的規定他是可以就公民投票法第二條第二項第三款也就是所謂的重大政策的創製或複決來交付公投重大政策說不要戰爭不要戰爭就是說"},{"start":592.514,"end":618.702,"text":"這個國防 我們跟美國買太多國防會惹怒中國可能會引發戰爭這樣合理嗎這個是最基本的條件我是不敢說它合不合理最基本的條件就是說你一定要護航你提出來的案子必須是重大政策的覆決或創制那我們中選會就會跟著辦下去好 謝謝主委時間的關係 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當然他們團體裡面就把他篩選掉了"},{"start":67.088,"end":84.03,"text":"但我們藉這樣一張連署延伸幾個問題就是說如果在接下來的這個連署不管是哪一區我們今天不要講哪一區出現的量子筆跡相同但是名字顯然虛構資料有嚴重偽物的這樣一個情況之下算不算偽造文書有沒有犯罪"},{"start":87.665,"end":113.813,"text":"筆跡對不起剛剛我沒有講清楚我說筆跡都很像嘛這個顯然是同一人所為嘛然後他亂寫一通好不管這個人是什麼動機對不對但他做了這樣一個行為該當何罪還是沒有關係隨便他簽的名他自己簽的名對啊就是這樣你就以這一張來講嘛就是顯然是完全虛構的資料你填在聯署書上你把它交出去了那當然在查對之後他就被篩選掉了他也不是簽自己的名"},{"start":114.485,"end":135.232,"text":"看起來也不是嘛對不對或是亂簽嘛對不對那狀況是什麼我只是問這個樣態你是可以處理還是不能處理但是唐太宗不一定是唐朝那個唐太宗啊也許真的有人姓唐名叫太宗對嘛所以我還問你怎麼處理啊所以這個還是偽造文書啊還是偽造文書真的確定齁那你們有沒有能耐本事去追查嗎"},{"start":136.414,"end":155.848,"text":"你們有能力去追查嗎而且我們也沒有責任去追查你們也沒有責任去追查你剛剛一陣直言講這是偽造文書但沒有責任追查我們就告發要告發對不對那請問現在很多區可能或多少都有這樣的狀況有些地方有些地方沒有那你們是不是有一個統一的機制回去做統一的告發"},{"start":157.905,"end":184.394,"text":"統一的機制我們現在都是就是地方報上來之後經過我們委員會的審查通過了確認了我們就告發了就會告發從地方選委會告發還是從中選會告發從中選會告發好這本議題提醒你這樣可能很多一定要嚴查嚴辦因為這一次空前的混亂導致的狀況其實要延伸出來是我的個資有沒有外洩啊有沒有什麼名冊啊等等不管藍綠都可能會有這樣一個狀況所以"},{"start":186.175,"end":211.656,"text":"順著這個我往下講現在我們二階連署送進來之後是不是進入所謂的勾機的程序也就是說所有連署都要跑戶政系統對不對是吧我們確定一下遊戲規則每一張都會跑對不對因為你要確定到底這個連署合不合格嘛他有沒有設計滿四個月身份證知道對不對戶籍地址是否正確嘛對不對所以是不是要跟系統來做借接會全面查核還是只是抽查"},{"start":212.688,"end":240.484,"text":"全面一定是全面嘛每一張每一張都要key嘛對不對都要進去系統來做處理嘛那如果這樣子出來之後他當然會篩選掉一大部分如果是錯的假的有的沒的當然都會被篩選掉但接下來還是有可能會發生這樣的狀況當然不會是那個古人連署啦很有可能是是是大量筆跡相同的這樣的一個狀況嘛所以他同樣是你剛剛講的偽造文書的樣態對不對因為只要不是本人處理他就是偽造文書嘛是吧"},{"start":242.694,"end":261.403,"text":"本人簽名對不是本人簽名就是偽造文書嘛你要像這一張他可能這個當然是比較好笑是都是古人連署不是本人簽名當然就是偽造文書嘛對所以你第一階段可以篩選掉很多錯的連署書那當做該做要做好我們已經把它釐清了是第二階段現在所謂的查對的部分"},{"start":261.963,"end":278.197,"text":"其實就是我們的這個選務機關在做查對的時候看到了筆跡相似嘛很有可能是抄寫的一個狀況嘛所以是不是機制上是不是就寄所謂的查對單做double check對不對會有這個機制會有這樣的機制本期在這邊就很認真的建議這一次因為這個選區的數量非常多而且狀況空前混亂而且大家高度質疑這都是現在的社會現實"},{"start":287.865,"end":305.518,"text":"所以為了解決這樣的事情重塑中選會的公信力我們是希望可以充分讓各個地方的選委會尊重地方的需求嘛因為我到底要計多少的查對單我要用什麼樣的標準大家可能有各自的判斷有可能反映各選區的一個狀況跟焦慮嘛對不對中選會會有統一的政策指導嗎"},{"start":307.016,"end":331.498,"text":"中選會按照法律的規定法律怎麼規定我們怎麼執行法律的規定是有偽造的嫌疑你這個查罪人員根據你的專業只要判斷有偽造的嫌疑有嫌疑就可以記對不對並不是說沒有嫌疑你不能亂記嘛 這個我同意要基隆那一次要記兩萬五千份 那沒有道理"},{"start":332.284,"end":352.859,"text":"但是如果你可以找出具體的跡證也就是說筆跡相似或是大量印章等等是不是就可以涉嫌疑的部分所以我們跟地方強調你不能夠要求定量的去濟發不可以但是同樣的也不會有數量的上限對不對但前提都是本於嫌疑這件事情嘛"},{"start":353.74,"end":374.237,"text":"好 所以你也不會下政策指導說不能超過多少量對不對沒有沒有但是你也不能主動講一定要有多少量對不對意思是這樣是好 謝謝這一部分我們在質詢的時候做一個釐清讓大家後面做參考這是有關於連署跟茶隊我們是希望重演啦因為大家現在都在傳各自外洩那是一個大的問題希望大家好好面對來 第二個"},{"start":377.811,"end":396.856,"text":"談一下募款的問題現在很多罷免因為法無明文啊那到底是可以募款還是不能募款主委法律沒有規定沒有規定所以是可以的嗎你的意思是這樣這個不歸我們管的不歸你們管 歸誰管這是政治縣內政部跟監察院"},{"start":397.438,"end":422.85,"text":"以你目前的了解,你也算法學專家嘛以你目前的了解,如果外面有募款行為會發生什麼事我不方便幫主管機關來做答覆你沒有不方便幫主管機關做答覆啊不方便,不方便哪裡不方便,你要不要說明一下因為越權啊越權啊這法律就是法律啊,法律的權勢就是法律的權勢啊萬一講錯了不好意思啊萬一講錯了會不好意思,真的假的"},{"start":424.445,"end":452.224,"text":"這個現在這個狀況是政治獻金法是對從事競選活動或其他政治相關活動之團體個人或團體無償提供動產不動產不當對價之己負債務之免除或其他經濟利益嘛這是政治獻金法的白紙黑字的規定嘛那基本上符合啦競選跟其他政治活動的捐款其實都符合應該要符合政治獻金法的守備範圍啦但是政治獻金法的規定啦Social政治獻金者以政黨政治團體及你參選人為限"},{"start":454.144,"end":469.23,"text":"所以其實是罷免狀況是非常特殊的啊因為他理論上他是政治相關活動但是他參與罷免不管是被罷方或者是發起方都不是政黨政治團體跟你參選人嘛對不對那就出現問題啦"},{"start":471.451,"end":497.042,"text":"所以我們今天是難得要討論這樣的事情結果你說你不方便詮釋這不是很奇怪嗎有主管機關他們有主管機關來詮釋是不是不過有這樣子奇奇怪怪的事情我們也不怕在這個地方曝一曝光因為這發生在我們桃園啊對不對桃園就有講說有的明明不見得是這個領銜人或者是他其他的身份但是他就以什麼六區的名義什麼大聯盟就開始對外來進行募款"},{"start":498.394,"end":523.226,"text":"我是希望這件事情走到最後標準要一致啊要嘛就是可以募款要嘛就是不能募款其實就是這樣而已嘛對不對我希望不要出現雙標的行為如果這個東西其實明明上應該不是無法可管啦而是應該該管而且可以管因為我剛剛已經講政治先進法但是李主委你剛剛的回答很清楚你說這不是主管機關我是很害怕這件事情又變成踢皮球啦今天內政部有來嗎"},{"start":525.077,"end":543.242,"text":"夜報沒關係我們後面還有時間再來討論但是我是希望這件事情政府你要超辦選務啊這些東西也都會跟選舉的公信力跟社會的質疑等等都會產生關聯啊所以我不希望主委是用不是主管機關我怕越選就逃避這樣的問題你們要不要商量一下這東西到底應該怎麼辦可以嗎"},{"start":544.827,"end":563.859,"text":"募款的部分啊總要給社會大眾一個說法嘛全責機關如果就這個問題他們有跟我們要求提供意見那基於機關之間彼此的溝通我們會提供你提供了沒 他問了沒 他沒問他一點興趣都沒有 最好就遊走在灰色地帶把這種"},{"start":565.887,"end":588.737,"text":"名為罷免搞不好實際上在吸金的行為都當隨便是這樣嗎我相信他沒有定見沒有定見他沒有定見滿危險的好最後一個一分鐘的問題不好意思老主席這個我們選舉喔是有說明會對不對罷免也有說明會可是選舉的說明會規則好像比較詳細也就是說參選人超過三分之二以上同意就可以進行交叉結論變成辯論會罷免了"},{"start":591.659,"end":607.293,"text":"罷免沒有這個規定沒有這個規定對不對所以罷免是沒有公辦辯論會對不對政見發表會只有發表會沒有辯論會我如果跟我的對手都同意改成辯論會也不行對不對因為與法無懼嘛沒有這個規定那主委你覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":610.626,"end":637.911,"text":"呃...主委你也是老民進黨人啊老民進黨人都是辯論好手嘛對不對我想我想政治工作常常就是要把話表達清楚民間可能會有興趣民間可能會有興趣好我希望民間有興趣啦但是我要藉這個機會重新提醒選舉應該要辯論罷免更應該要辯論因為罷免四射有可能是少數要罷免多數的問題當然應該要用說清楚講明白的方式讓資訊可以用對稱的方式來呈現我想主委不會否認這樣的民主精神吧"},{"start":639.175,"end":663.286,"text":"提供充分的資訊給選民我想這是有必要的嘛對不對其實我過去在你之前做業務報告我也提過我說我們選舉公辦證件會太少了每一場選舉公辦證件會就只有一場而且還可以愛來不來對不對所以到了最後走著走著選舉越來越畸形每天都掛看板少市場結果該發表證件很少發表證件我是慢慢希望台灣的選舉走向公費選舉公費選舉公費公投公費罷免"},{"start":666.047,"end":688.298,"text":"你才能避免財力的不均等造成選務的不公平造成競爭的不公平應該是這樣說所以怎麼去做其實應該是選務機關帶頭增加相關的場次嘛每一次的選舉我們應該增加公辦證件會跟公辦辯論會的場次罷免你當然應該要有辯論會的機制嘛而不是只是哎呀我們就留於形勢以前反正只是說明說明也沒幾個案例史無前例我不希望後面還有惡例啊"},{"start":689.378,"end":702.644,"text":"但是這個事情該說清楚 主委不反對資訊的呈現要對稱這是你們自己辦法裡面可以修改的 請中委會思考一下要修法要修法 我看這是辦法吧 等一下罷免辯論應該是辦法辯論要修法好沒關係 我們也許可以列入後面修法的參考但是主委你會不會站成這樣的方向我會尊重你們會尊重"},{"start":718.496,"end":727.148,"text":"好啦希望喔這個罷免選舉這樣子搞下去喔全國血流成河之雨不要傷害了大家對於中選會的公信力就好啦好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":578,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時48分）謝謝主席。有請李進勇主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委早安。"],["李主任委員進勇：早。"],["牛委員煦庭：這一次全國大罷免史無前例，基本上也空前混亂，社會上的衝突跟對立目前在持續加溫之中。你作為中選會的主委，籌辦這一次選務一定是特別辛苦，這我們都願意理解，所以今天針對相關的一些議題，跟你做一些探討。第一個是有關於連署跟查對的一些遊戲規則，我們要在委員會這邊做一個釐清。","我們這段時間有看到很多奇奇怪怪的連署樣態，互相指責，有人講死人連署、幽靈連署，這張簡報滿有意思，是來自於臺東，唐太宗也來連署，李世民、李隆基還有衛子夫，這都是一些古人連署。這樣一張連署，當然團體裡面就把它篩選掉了，我們藉這樣一張連署來延伸幾個問題。如果在接下來的連署，不管是哪一區，我們先不要講哪一區，出現了這樣子筆跡相同，但是名字顯然虛構、資料有嚴重偽誤的一個情況之下，這算不算偽造文書？有沒有犯罪？"],["李主任委員進勇：筆跡？對不起，剛剛我沒有聽清楚。"],["牛委員煦庭：我說筆跡都很像，這顯然是同一人所為嘛！他亂寫一通，不管這個人是基於什麼動機，對不對？但他做了這樣一個行為，該當何罪？還是沒有關係，隨便？"],["李主任委員進勇：他簽的名，他自己簽的名？"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！就是這樣，就以這一張來講，顯然是完全虛構的資料，他填在連署書上，把它交出去了，當然在查對之後，就被篩選掉了。"],["李主任委員進勇：他也不是簽自己的名。"],["牛委員煦庭：看起來也不是，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：他簽唐太宗。"],["牛委員煦庭：或者是亂簽，對不對？狀況是什麼？我只問這個樣態你是可以處理，還是不能處理？"],["李主任委員進勇：但是唐太宗不一定是唐朝那個唐太宗，也許真的有人姓唐名叫太宗。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我要問你怎麼處理啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：這個還是偽造文書。"],["牛委員煦庭：還是偽造文書？"],["李主任委員進勇：我個人的看法。"],["牛委員煦庭：真的？確定？那你們有能耐、本事去追查嗎？你們有能力去追查嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：而且我們也沒有責任去追查。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們也沒有責任去追查？你剛剛義正辭嚴講這是偽造文書，但沒有責任追查？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果他是偽造文書，我們就告發。"],["牛委員煦庭：要告發，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：那請問，現在很多區可能或多或少都有這樣的狀況，有些地方有，有些地方沒有，那你們是不是有一個統一的機制會去做統一的告發？"],["李主任委員進勇：統一的機制？我們現在都是地方報上來之後，經過我們委員會的審查，通過了、確認了，我們就告發了。"],["牛委員煦庭：就會告發？"],["李主任委員進勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：從地方選委會告發，還是從中選會告發？"],["李主任委員進勇：從中選會。"],["牛委員煦庭：從中選會告發。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席提醒你，這樣的事情可能很多，一定要嚴查嚴辦。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為這一次空前的混亂導致的狀況，其實都要延伸出來我的個資有沒有外洩啊！有沒有什麼名冊等等，不管藍綠都可能會有這樣的狀況。所以順著這個我往下講，現在二階連署送進來之後，是不是進入所謂勾稽的程序？也就是說，所有連署書都要跑戶政系統，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：是吧？我們確定一下遊戲規則，每一張都會跑，對不對？因為你要確定到底這個連署合不合格，他有沒有設籍滿4個月，身分證字號對不對，戶籍地址是否正確，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以是不是要跟系統來做介接？會全面查核，還是只是抽查？"],["李主任委員進勇：全面。"],["牛委員煦庭：一定是全面？"],["李主任委員進勇：每一張。"],["牛委員煦庭：每一張、每一張都要key，對不對？都要進去系統來做處理。這樣子出來之後，當然會篩選掉一大部分，如果是錯的、假的，有的沒的當然都會被篩選掉。但接下來還是有可能會發生這樣的狀況，當然不會是那個古人連署，很有可能是大量筆跡相同的狀況，所以同樣是你剛剛講的偽造文書的樣態，對不對？因為只要不是本人處理就是偽造文書，是吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：本人簽名……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，不是本人簽名就是偽造文書，你看像這一張，這個當然是比較好笑，都是古人連署。"],["李主任委員進勇：不是本人簽名當然就是偽造文書。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是偽造文書。所以第一階段可以篩選掉很多錯的連署書，那是該做、要做的，我們已經把它釐清了。是第二階段，現在所謂查對的部分，其實就是我們的選務機關在做查對的時候，看到了筆跡相似，很有可能是抄寫的狀況，所以機制上是不是就寄所謂的查對單做double check，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：會有這個機制。"],["牛委員煦庭：會有這樣的機制，本席在這邊就很認真的建議，這一次，因為選區的數量非常多，而且狀況空前混亂，而且大家高度質疑，這都是現在的社會現實。所以為了解決這樣的事情，重塑中選會的公信力，我們是希望可以充分讓各個地方的選委會，尊重地方的需求，因為我到底要寄多少的查對單，我要用什麼樣的標準，大家可能有各自的判斷，有可能要反映各選區的狀況跟焦慮，對不對？中選會會有統一的政策指導嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：中選會按照法律的規定，法律怎麼規定，我們怎麼執行……"],["牛委員煦庭：以現行法……"],["李主任委員進勇：法律的規定是有偽造的嫌疑，這個查對人員根據你的專業……"],["牛委員煦庭：只要判斷有偽造的嫌疑……"],["李主任委員進勇：有嫌疑，你就可以寄。"],["牛委員煦庭：就可以寄，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：並不是說沒有嫌疑，沒有嫌疑你寄那麼多幹嘛……"],["牛委員煦庭：你不能亂寄，這個我同意，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：像基隆那一次要寄2萬5,000份，沒有道理嘛！"],["牛委員煦庭：但是如果你可以找出具體的跡證，也就是說筆跡相似或者是大量印章等等，是不是就可以符合嫌疑的部分？"],["李主任委員進勇：對，所以我們跟地方強調，你不能夠要求定量的去寄發，不可以，沒有所謂定量……"],["牛委員煦庭：但是同樣的，也不會有數量的上限，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：當然，要有嫌疑。"],["牛委員煦庭：但前提都是本於嫌疑這件事情？"],["李主任委員進勇：要有嫌疑。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，所以你也不會下政策指導，說不能超過多少量，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有、沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是你也不能主動講一定要有多少量，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：意思是這樣？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。這一部分我們在質詢的時候做一個釐清，讓大家後面做參考，這是有關於連署跟查對。我們是希望從嚴，因為大家現在都在傳個資外洩，那是一個大的問題，希望大家好好面對。","第二個，談一下募款的問題。現在很多人要罷免，因為法無明文，所以到底是可以募款還是不能募款？主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：法律沒有規定。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有規定？"],["李主任委員進勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以是可以的嗎？你的意思是這樣？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個不歸我們管。"],["牛委員煦庭：不歸你們管？歸誰管？"],["李主任委員進勇：政治獻金是內政部跟監察院。"],["牛委員煦庭：以你目前的了解，你也算是法學專家，以你目前的了解。"],["李主任委員進勇：內政部跟監察院。"],["牛委員煦庭：以你目前的了解，如果外面有募款行為會發生什麼事？"],["李主任委員進勇：我不方便幫主管機關來做答復。"],["牛委員煦庭：你沒有不方便幫主管機關做答復啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：不方便、不方便、不方便。"],["牛委員煦庭：哪裡不方便？你要不要說明一下。"],["李主任委員進勇：因為越權。"],["牛委員煦庭：越權？"],["李主任委員進勇：越權，對。"],["牛委員煦庭：法律就是法律，法律的詮釋就是法律的詮釋啊。"],["李主任委員進勇：萬一講錯了不好意思。"],["牛委員煦庭：萬一講錯了會不好意思？真的假的？現在這個狀況是，政治獻金法是對從事競選活動或其他政治相關活動之個人或團體無償提供動產、不動產、不當對價之給付、債務之免除其他經濟利益，這是政治獻金法白紙黑字的規定。基本上符合啦，競選跟其他政治活動的捐款，其實都符合，應該要符合政治獻金法的守備範圍！但是政治獻金法有規定，收受政治獻金者，以政黨、政治團體及擬參選人為限所以其實罷免狀況是非常特殊的，因為理論上它是政治相關活動，但是參與罷免者，不管是被罷方或者是發起方，都不是政黨、政治團體跟擬參選人，對不對？那就出現問題了。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們今天是難得要討論這樣的事情，結果你說你不方便詮釋，那不是很奇怪嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：由主管機關他們，權責由他們來處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：由主管機關來詮釋，是不是？不過有這樣子奇奇怪怪的事情，我們也不怕在這個地方曝一曝光，就是發生在我們桃園，對不對？桃園就有講說有的明明不見得是領銜人或者是他有其他的身分，但是他就以什麼六區的名義、什麼大聯盟，就開始對外來進行募款。我只希望這件事情走到最後，標準要一致，要嘛就是可以募款，要嘛就是不能募款，其實就是這樣而已，對不對？我希望不要出現雙標的行為。"],["李主任委員進勇：我想權責機關他們……"],["牛委員煦庭：這東西明明不是無法可管，而且是該管、可以管，因為我剛剛已經講政治獻金法，但是李主委你剛剛的回答很清楚，你說你不是主管機關，所以我很害怕這件事情又變成踢皮球！今天內政部有來嗎？沒有，因為今天是業報，沒關係，我們後面還有時間再來討論，但是我是希望這件事情，你們要操辦選務，這些東西也都會跟選舉的公信力、跟社會的質疑等等都會產生關聯，所以我不希望主委是用「不是主管機關，我怕越權」，就逃避這樣的問題，你們要商量一下，這到底應該怎麼辦？可以嗎？募款的部分，總要給社會大眾一個說法。"],["李主任委員進勇：權責機關如果就這個問題，他們有跟我們要求提供意見，基於機關之間彼此的溝通，我們會提供。"],["牛委員煦庭：你提供了沒？它問了沒？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有、沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：它沒問？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：它一點興趣都沒有，最好就遊走在灰色地帶，把這種名為罷免、搞不好實際上在吸金的行為都當隨便，是這樣嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我相信它沒有定見、它沒有定見。"],["牛委員煦庭：是這樣嗎？沒有定見？"],["李主任委員進勇：它沒有定見。"],["牛委員煦庭：滿危險的。","好，最後一個，1分鐘的問題，不好意思，主席。我們選舉是有說明會，對不對？罷免也有說明會，可是選舉的說明會，規則好像比較詳細，也就是說，參選人超過三分之二以上同意，就可以進行交叉詰問，變成辯論會，罷免呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：罷免沒有這個規定。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有這個規定，對不對？所以罷免是沒有公辦辯論會，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：政見發表會。"],["牛委員煦庭：只有發表會，沒有辯論會。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我如果跟我的對手都同意改成辯論會，也不行對不對？因為於法無據。"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有這個規定。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委你覺得這樣合理嗎？主委，你也是老民進黨人，老民進黨人很多都是辯論好手，對不對？政治工作常常就是要把話表達清楚。"],["李主任委員進勇：民間可能會有興趣。"],["牛委員煦庭：民間可能會有興趣？好，我希望民間有興趣啦，但是我要藉這個機會在這邊提醒，選舉應該要辯論，罷免更應該要辯論，因為罷免事涉有可能是少數要罷免多數的問題，當然應該要用說清楚、講明白的方式，讓資訊可以用對稱的方式來呈現，我想主委不會否認這樣的民主精神吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：提供充分的資訊給選民，我想這是每一個當事人都應該要的。"],["牛委員煦庭：這是有必要的，對不對？之前你做業務報告時我也提過，我說我們選舉公辦政見會太少了，每一場選舉的公辦政見會就只有一場，而且還可以愛來不來，對不對？所以到了最後走著走著，選舉越來越畸形，每個人只要掛看板、掃市場，結果該發表政見很少發表政見。我希望臺灣的選舉慢慢走向公費選舉，公費選舉、公費公投、公費罷免，才能避免財力的不均等，造成選務的不公平，造成競爭的不公平，應該是這樣說。所以怎麼去做？其實應該是選務機關帶頭增加相關的場次，每一次的選舉，我們應該增加公辦政見會跟公辦辯論會的場次，罷免也當然應該要有辯論會的機制，而不是只流於形式，以前反正只是說明、說明，也沒幾個案例，史無前例，我不希望後面還有惡例！但是這個事情該說清楚，主委不反對，資訊呈現要對稱，這是你們自己辦法裡面可以修改的，請中選會思考一下。"],["李主任委員進勇：要修法。"],["牛委員煦庭：要修法？我看它只是辦法，罷免辯論應該是辦法。"],["李主任委員進勇：辯論要修法。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，沒關係，我們也許可以列入後面修法的參考，但是主委會不會贊成這樣的方向？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們會尊重。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們會尊重？好啦，希望罷免選舉這樣子搞下去，全國血流成河之餘，不要傷害了中選會的公信力就好了，謝謝。"],["主席：感謝牛煦庭召委，我們請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":194,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-17","speakers":["牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","賴士葆","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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我們請李靜蓉主委李主委有請委員好"},{"start":13.186,"end":33.78,"text":"李主委好我想請教一下李主委就是我們各縣市的選委會的同仁的薪水是由誰來支付的是由中央支付就由中央嘛中選會嘛所以其實我們各縣市選委會的同仁都是由中央中選會來支付相關的薪水嗎所以就是我們所謂的一條邊這樣是吧"},{"start":35.521,"end":58.486,"text":"是好我必須要澄清一下地方的選委會也是由中央選委會來支付薪水而且呢我們也知道就是中央地方一條邊來執行選務工作那在這邊我要請教一下這個我們的李主委就是說我們其實這段時間看到了就是說我們今年大概創下全世界的首例啊也是惡例啦就是"},{"start":60.086,"end":74.861,"text":"把我們的執政黨民進黨發起罷免立法院的35個區域立委喔那現在呢各地混亂的狀況也都在直指這個中選會的不公啊那所以這些日子以來我想大家都有這樣的感受所以我們先來檢討喔就是罷免"},{"start":77.283,"end":98.402,"text":"提议联署不公的状况因为其实在我们的选罢法第75条的规定就是就职未满一年则不得罢免但是呢我们可以看到很多的罢团尤其是民进党的总召柯建民说在113年1月15号也就是我们1月13号选完之后他就开始在准备大罢免了"},{"start":99.002,"end":111.265,"text":"那這樣其實就在鑽我們75條的漏洞喔那當然這個時候我們也有提案希望能夠來去這個填補這個漏洞希望就是改為就是我們75條應該改為應該就職未滿一年者不得為提議連署這樣才能規範這樣的問題可是這個問題目前都還沒有這樣子的中選會也不認同那請問中選會對於這個具體的防制作為目前有嗎"},{"start":126.28,"end":134.946,"text":"這是根據法律的規定中選會依法來執行如果因此說中選會不公那請問一下您認同柯總召可以在去年的1月13就說他們要發起大罷免嗎而且在"},{"start":143.211,"end":165.445,"text":"這個滿一年之後2月1號滿一年2月3號他們就送出了這個中選會就是應該要閉起眼睛不要去看他們也不要去聽他們中選會要公正公平公開所以請不要閉起眼睛我們現在的感受就是中選會就是閉起眼睛半藍不半綠在各方爭議各方攻防的情況之下我們唯有像正義女神一樣要拍眼睛"},{"start":169.808,"end":183.544,"text":"當然要眼睛張開啊可是我們現在看到的中選會就是閉起眼睛就像您剛剛講的中選會就是辦藍不辦綠所以75條法律的規定怎麼會是中選會不公正不中立呢我現在是說"},{"start":184.645,"end":205.671,"text":"因為民進黨在鑽這樣的法律漏洞那中選會對此有沒有什麼樣具體的作為那剛剛您講嘛你們會閉上眼睛法律沒有規定中選會就不能夠違法去執政好 那我們的修法您讚不讚同如果我來修正這一條其實我已經也提案要修正這個部分修法是立法委員是大院的職責好 謝謝主委謝謝主委的認同好 那接下來呢就是中選會在2月1號公告時其實這個部分就是"},{"start":215.146,"end":237.86,"text":"我知道之前有一個公文是問中選會可不可以在這個連署書上可不可以用打字蓋章替代親筆連署那中選會回答是可以嗎只要本人親自簽名就可以喔那其實呢這樣的一個方式當然就會讓人家有一些存疑啦你前面是可以這個就是要用打字蓋章打字抄寫都可以只要本人"},{"start":238.62,"end":245.446,"text":"簽名或蓋章就可以嗎也就是說這一個聯署書如果是用打字再用蓋章那請問這樣是合格的聯署書嗎那個個欄個欄就是用打字的然後本人親自簽名或蓋章對那只要是用打字的然後最後是親自蓋章這個是合格的聯署書對不對對啊那這樣的話你要怎麼去查它是不是違照你要怎麼去查它是不是有問題"},{"start":267.042,"end":289.446,"text":"沒有啊 可以用蓋章喔主要是簽名跟蓋章沒有喔 你們回環是說蓋章或簽名都可以喔也就是說一個連署書用打字的在最後用蓋章 這個是合格的喔蓋章 這個倒刻印章去蓋的大概肉眼也可以做辨識那所以主委的意思這樣就是不合格的喔是這樣的意思嗎倒蓋當然是不合格"},{"start":290.327,"end":293.27,"text":"倒蓋印章當然不合格倒蓋印章不合格我們現場的查隊人員他們會做辨識如果我們發覺是打字的或是抄寫的最後用蓋章的我們其實就可以去查隊"},{"start":307.689,"end":321.465,"text":"去了解他到底是不是這個錯假連署或偽造的我們的查罪人員會做辨識認定那另外我在想請問一下主委就是告發疑似偽造的標準是什麼是依據查核錯誤的鑒數還是憑中選會的感覺憑選務人員的感覺"},{"start":326.09,"end":352.55,"text":"中選會跟這個選務人員不會憑感覺辦事那就是有一定的標準當然有一定的標準那希望中選會要依照這樣的標準去做查對有關於這個死亡連署的部分是各地的戶政機關他們查對的結果有關於是否這個委簽或者是倒蓋這是我們當地的選務機關的人員他們的查對的項目"},{"start":356.173,"end":364.198,"text":"那我想請教一下主委,過去有過市長的罷免案、民代的罷免案還有總統、副總統選舉的連署案,也都有疑似偽造的情況請問中選會有沒有告發?有請問告發的時間是什麼時候?告發的時間大概不一啦請問剛我講的這三件,市長的罷免案還有總統、副總統選舉連署案,這個都在什麼時候告發?"},{"start":383.455,"end":399.98,"text":"大概會主委如果您忘記了我可以告訴你你們都是在選舉結束之後才告發應該是應該講說是這個查對的程序結束之後結果我們委員會的審查最後的結果根據這個結果才去告發"},{"start":401.243,"end":404.405,"text":"依照你可能忘記了你們這兩件不管是韓院韓市長的一個罷免案跟我們總統副總統的這個連署你們都是在選舉結束之後才去告發的其實我想要跟主委這跟我講的沒有差別啦我想要跟主委探討的是其實其實說真的你現在在一階就已經對於這個這麼多的這個這個"},{"start":426.687,"end":453.158,"text":"疑似偽造文書 疑似這樣的一個狀況 各自法的部分就提出了告發的一個動作其實我想主委應該很清楚 連署是沒有辦法決定結果的是最後人民踏入我們的這個投票所 一票一票的蓋出來才能決定最後是否罷免成功 這個您認同吧我特別要強調的就是說 我們的告發是依法有據的"},{"start":454.139,"end":476.934,"text":"所以我想為什麼你們以前都在選後才告發就是因為確實要由人民一票一票的投出來的結果才能夠影響選舉的結果所以你們以前會選擇在選後來做告發的動作是這樣可是這次是非常罕見的大規模的在選舉第一階段的這個連署之後就開始做這樣的告發"},{"start":477.594,"end":479.156,"text":"2月3號開始收案從2月初開始就不斷的有檢舉案件民間的檢舉案件到檢調機關區"},{"start":498.795,"end":500.975,"text":"減掉機關從2月到3月減掉機關減掉機關從2月到3月一共有14度發函來要我們提供資料所以狀況不一樣狀況不一樣狀況不一樣"},{"start":524.4,"end":529.003,"text":"最終的結果嗎那個跟連署是沒有關係的連署是他有沒有資格那如果你們覺得有偽造或是有這個相關的你們都已經剔除了嘛那當然我想在這邊也在跟主委請教就是說在過去罷免韓市長被告偽造文書被移送法辦之後高雄地檢署是最後不起訴"},{"start":551.275,"end":578.56,"text":"那不起訴的聲明它是說於收集連署的過程中並未有護證系統等方式供查和比對身份的字號亦難期待得以發覺有連署者於提議前已死亡之情勢是被告等人尚難以深知已是偽造斯文罪的這個罪責喔也就是說發起人根本難以事前查對連署書的真假能有這樣的能力的這種選務機構"},{"start":580.06,"end":597.113,"text":"所以呢需要有足以損害於公眾或他人的這個狀況才可以成立那請問一下主委 水務機關都已經把錯誤的或者是這個死亡連署的都已經挑出來的還有足深損害於公眾或他人的機會嗎就是說在連署的過程中"},{"start":602.915,"end":631.374,"text":"你们在我们的选务机关已经把错误的提议联署书挑出来这样还有足深损害于公众或他人吗就像我刚刚讲的最后的人民投票才能够影响那样的结果伪造是被我们认定的道科死亡联署是我们认定的我们认定了就表示他有犯罪的嫌疑他有犯罪的嫌疑刑事诉讼241条我们就应该要告发至于告发之后"},{"start":632.734,"end":640.119,"text":"構成要件該不該當主委那是司法機關的事情這是我們剛剛探討一個問題跟我們剛剛探討一個問題你這次你是主動告發的嘛我們中選會有主動告發然後再來就是說因為時間關係最後一個問題想要請教一下這個主委就是我要跟您探討一下偽造文書的這個問題就是前台中地方法院法官李敬勇"},{"start":656.488,"end":667.778,"text":"曾經要書記官造假筆錄倒填日期依照當時的法官平和的機制如果李金勇法官在1985年11月31號前沒有開庭會因拖延審判而影響考積由假等降為已等獎金也會短少33125元但李法官為了避免被認定延遲審查經將雙方律師2月5號出庭簽下的暫停審判同意書日期篡改為1月31號"},{"start":685.032,"end":712.995,"text":"意圖製造在期限內開庭的假象請問主委當年造假筆錄道田日期的動機是什麼第一個我的答覆第一個這是40年前無罪判決的一個成年老案現在又提出來你說你也想看有什麼真假第二個這個案子沒有查評冊沒有死亡聯署也沒有道科印章"},{"start":713.772,"end":719.938,"text":"主委當年的判決書特別講到說本案被告李靖勇等人行為雖然具偽造之形式然而無罪的理由是因為未身實質損害所以獲判無罪並不是沒有這件事情而是因為沒有實質的損害那請問一下李靖勇我們的主委你當時"},{"start":738.095,"end":745.817,"text":"他們有到清晨十分到你家去大搜索嗎你們有被帶回徵訊一天一夜嗎你們有檢察官申請生壓嗎所以其實這個部分我只是要跟我是要跟主委來探討我沒有要掩飾什麼我只是要跟主委探討我們這樣子的案子應該要偵查的比例原則應該要遵守"},{"start":762.881,"end":770.244,"text":"我覺得您我覺得您非常的幸運因為你們當時有一個可以依法行政的好監察官所以呢才能夠放到這樣的時候如果到今天的話你可能會被這個減掉收穫你可能會被施壓所以所以我覺得您很幸運因為當年遇到了這個可以依法行政的好監察官所以李靜友主委"},{"start":788.972,"end":797.881,"text":"您不要惱羞成怒我現在跟你探討的就是是不是依法行政的問題有沒有依照比例原則我只是覺得你身為一個立法委員怎麼會拿這種40年前的舊案毫無理由的舊案來提出質疑"},{"start":807.811,"end":814.093,"text":"我們現在明年的選舉已經開始用排黑條款最重要的一點是我最重要的一點是要讓全社會都知道就是你提起這個案子無助於隱釋你能的組織性的犯罪無助於隱釋這個組織性系統性犯罪"},{"start":835.6,"end":839.027,"text":"不能夠再繼續參政所以我覺得那個標準要一致謝謝主委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時33分）謝謝主席。我們請李進勇主委。"],["主席：李主委有請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：李主委好。我想請教一下李主委，各縣市選委會同仁的薪水是由誰來支付的？"],["李主任委員進勇：是由中央支付。"],["許委員宇甄：就由中央、中選會嘛，所以各縣市選委會的同仁都是由中央、中選會來支付相關的薪水，就是我們所謂的一條鞭，是嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["許委員宇甄：我必須要澄清一下，地方的選委會也是由中央選委會來支付薪水，而且我們也知道中央地方一條鞭來執行選務工作。","在這邊我要請教一下李主委，其實在這段時間看到了，我們今年大概創下全世界的首例、也是惡例，就是執政黨民進黨發起罷免立法院的35個區域立委！現在各地混亂的狀況也都在直指中選會的不公，這些日子以來我想大家都有這樣的感受，所以我們先來檢討罷免提議連署不公的狀況。在選罷法第七十五條有規定，就職未滿一年者不得罷免，但是我們可以看到很多的罷團，尤其是民進黨總召柯建銘在113年1月15號，也就是1月13號選完之後他就開始在準備大罷免了，這樣其實就在鑽第七十五條的漏洞。當然我們也有提案希望能夠填補這個漏洞，認為第七十五條應該改為，就職未滿一年者不得為提議連署，如此才能規範這樣的問題，可是這個問題目前都還沒有……中選會也不認同。請問中選會，目前對於這方面有具體的防制作為嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：這是根據法律的規定，中選會依法來執行，如果因此說中選會不公……"],["許委員宇甄：其實這個就是鑽法律漏洞。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們沒有辦法接受、我們沒有辦法接受這樣子的指控。"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下，您認同柯總召可以在去年的1月13日就說他們要發起大罷免嗎？而且在2月1號滿一年之後，2月3號他們就送出了提議連署書。"],["李主任委員進勇：中選會就是應該要閉起眼睛，不要去看他們、也不要去聽他們……"],["許委員宇甄：中選會要公正、公平、公開……"],["李主任委員進勇：所以要閉起眼睛！"],["許委員宇甄：所以請不要閉起眼睛！我們現在的感受就是中選會就是閉起眼睛、辦藍不辦綠！請主委要善盡你的職責。"],["李主任委員進勇：在各方爭議、各方攻防的情況之下，我們唯有像正義女神一樣要把眼睛矇起來。"],["許委員宇甄：當然要眼睛張開啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：眼睛矇起來。"],["許委員宇甄：可是我們現在看到的中選會就是閉起眼睛，就像您剛剛講的，中選會就是辦藍不辦綠！還有另外……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們是依法執行，依據第七十五條的法律規定，怎麼會是中選會不公正、不中立呢？"],["許委員宇甄：我現在是說，因為民進黨在鑽這樣的法律漏洞，那中選會對此有沒有什麼樣的具體的作為？剛剛您講你們會閉上眼睛，針對這個部分……"],["李主任委員進勇：法律沒有規定，中選會就不能夠違法去執行。"],["許委員宇甄：那我們的修法您贊不贊同？如果我來修正這一條，其實我也已經提案要修正這個部分。"],["李主任委員進勇：修法是立法委員、是大院的職責，我們予以尊重。"],["許委員宇甄：謝謝主委，謝謝主委的認同。","接下來，中選會在2月1號公告……關於這個部分，我知道之前有一個公文是問中選會，連署書上可不可以用打字、蓋章替代親筆連署，中選會回答可以，只要本人親自簽名就可以。其實這樣的方式當然就會讓人家有一些存疑，既然前面可以，就是用打字、抄寫都可以，只要本人簽名或蓋章就可以。也就是說，這一個連署書如果是打字再用蓋章，請問這樣是合格的連署書嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：各欄用打字的，然後本人親自簽名或蓋章，這個是……"],["許委員宇甄：對，只要是用打字的，然後最後是親自蓋章，這個是合格的連署書，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：這是可以的。"],["許委員宇甄：對啊，那這樣的話，你要怎麼去查他是不是偽造、你要怎麼去查他是不是有問題？"],["李主任委員進勇：簽名……"],["許委員宇甄：沒有，可以用蓋章喔！"],["李主任委員進勇：主要是簽名跟蓋章。"],["許委員宇甄：沒有，你們的回函是說蓋章或簽名都可以喔！也就是說，一個連署書用打字的，在最後用蓋章，這個是合格的喔！"],["李主任委員進勇：蓋章這部分如果是盜刻印章去蓋的，大概肉眼也可以做辨識。"],["許委員宇甄：所以依主委的意思，這樣就是不合格的？是這樣的意思嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：盜蓋當然是不合格。"],["許委員宇甄：什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：盜蓋印章當然不合格、盜刻印章不合格。"],["許委員宇甄：但是你要怎麼知道這是不是盜蓋？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們現場……"],["許委員宇甄：可以去查對，是這樣嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：查對人員會做辨識。"],["許委員宇甄：好，那也就是說，如果你們發覺這個是打字或抄寫而最後用蓋章的，其實就可以去查對、去了解他到底是不是錯假連署或偽造的。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們的查對人員會做辨識、認定。"],["許委員宇甄：另外，我想再請問一下主委，告發疑似偽造的標準是什麼？是依據查核錯誤的件數，還是憑中選會的感覺、憑選務人員的感覺？"],["李主任委員進勇：中選會跟選務人員不會憑感覺辦事。"],["許委員宇甄：那就是有一定的標準，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：當然有一定的標準。"],["許委員宇甄：希望中選會要依照這樣的標準去做查對。"],["李主任委員進勇：關於死亡連署的部分，是各地戶政機關查對的結果；關於是否偽簽或者是盜蓋，這是我們當地選務機關人員的查對項目。"],["許委員宇甄：我請教主委，過去有過市長的罷免案、民代的罷免案還有總統、副總統選舉的連署案，也都有疑似偽造的情況，請問中選會有沒有告發？"],["李主任委員進勇：有。"],["許委員宇甄：有？好，請問告發的時間是什麼時候？"],["李主任委員進勇：告發的時間不一！"],["許委員宇甄：請問我剛講的這三件市長的罷免案還有總統、副總統選舉連署案，都在什麼時候告發？"],["李主任委員進勇：大概會……"],["許委員宇甄：主委，如果您忘記了，我可以告訴你，你們都是在選舉結束之後才告發。"],["李主任委員進勇：應該講說是查對的程序結束之後，經過我們委員會的審查有最後的結果，根據這個結果才去告發。"],["許委員宇甄：您可能忘記了，你們這兩件，不管韓市長的罷免案跟總統、副總統的連署，你們都是在選舉結束之後才去告發的，其實我想要跟主委……"],["李主任委員進勇：這跟我講的沒有差別啦，就是最後的審查確認……"],["許委員宇甄：我想要跟主委探討的是，其實說真的，你現在在一階，就已經對於這麼多疑似的偽造文書、疑似這樣的一個狀況，就個資法的部分就提出了告發的動作。我想主委應該很清楚，連署是沒有辦法決定結果的，是最後人民踏入投票所，一票、一票的蓋出來，才能決定最後是否罷免成功，這個您認同吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：我特別要強調的是，我們的告發是依法有據。"],["許委員宇甄：所以我想為什麼你們以前都在選後才告發，就是因為確實要有人民一票、一票投出來的結果，才能夠影響選舉的結果，所以你們以前會選擇在選後來做告發的動作。可是這次是非常罕見的、大規模的在選舉第一階段連署之後，就開始做這樣的告發……"],["李主任委員進勇：我跟委員報告一下，我們要看客觀的狀況，這要討論一下，我報告，看你聽不聽得進去……"],["許委員宇甄：我想這樣子對於中選會來說，我們再次看到不公正的狀況，而且辦藍不辦綠，我們也看到很多。"],["李主任委員進勇：2月3號開始收案，從2月初開始就不斷的有檢舉案件，是民間的檢舉案件到檢調機關去，檢調機關從2月到3月……"],["許委員宇甄：那為什麼之前在韓市長被罷免案也有人檢舉啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：檢調機關從2月到3月，一共14度發函，要我們提供資料。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，我剛剛請教您的是……"],["李主任委員進勇：所以狀況不一樣，情況不一樣。"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛請教您的是，這幾個案子是不是都是在選後？因為最後人民進投票所投票，才會影響最終的結果，那個跟連署是沒有關係的。"],["李主任委員進勇：關於那個影響，到底有沒有影響……"],["許委員宇甄：連署是他有沒有資格，如果你們覺得有偽造或是有相關的，你們都已經剔除了嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：這是刑事構成要件，我們留給檢察官來做認定……"],["許委員宇甄：我想在這邊跟主委請教，過去罷免韓市長被告偽造文書被移送法辦之後，高雄地檢署最後是不起訴……"],["李主任委員進勇：不是，早一點告發對於有關證據的保存、證據的蒐集是有幫助的……"],["許委員宇甄：不起訴的聲明說：於收集連署的過程中，並未有戶役政系統等方式供查核比對身分字號，自亦難期待得以發覺有連署者於提議前已死亡之情事，是被告等人尚難繩以行使偽造私文書罪責。也就是說，發起人根本難以事前查對連署書的真假，有這樣能力的只有選務機構，所以需要有足以損害於公眾或他人的狀況才可以成立。請問主委，選務機關都已經把錯誤的或者是死亡連署的挑出來了，還有足生損害於公眾或他人的機會嗎？就是說在連署的過程中，選務機關已經把錯誤的提議連署書挑出來了，這樣還有足生損害於公眾或他人嗎？就像我剛剛講的，最後的人民投票才能夠影響那樣的結果……"],["李主任委員進勇：偽造是被我們認定的，盜刻、死亡連署是被我們認定的。"],["許委員宇甄：所以你們都剔除了？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們認定了，就表示他有犯罪的嫌疑……"],["許委員宇甄：對，所以你們都剔除了。"],["李主任委員進勇：他有犯罪的嫌疑，依據刑事訴訟法第二百四十一條，我們就應該要告發；至於告發之後的構成要件該不該當，那是司法機關的事情，這跟我們選務機關……我們不必去認定。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，這是我們剛剛探討的一個問題，這次你是主動告發，對不對？中選會有主動告發，再來就是……"],["李主任委員進勇：不是，我們不必去認定，只要它有偽造的嫌疑……"],["許委員宇甄：再來，因為時間的關係，最後一個問題想要請教主委，我要跟您探討偽造文書的問題。前臺中地方法院法官李進勇曾經要書記官造假筆錄倒填日期，依照當時的法官評核機制，如果李進勇法官在1985年1月31號前沒有開庭，會因拖延審判而影響考績，由甲等降為乙等，獎金也會短少3萬3,125元。但李法官為了避免被認定延遲審查，竟將雙方律師2月5號出庭簽下的暫停審判同意書日期篡改為1月31號，意圖製造在期限內開庭的假象，請問主委當年造假筆錄倒填日期的動機是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：我的答復，第一個，這是40年前無罪判決的一個陳年老案，現在再拿出來講，你也想想看真實性，第二個……"],["許委員宇甄：好，當年的……"],["李主任委員進勇：這個案子沒有抄名冊、沒有死亡連署，也沒有盜刻印章，這個跟現在辦的案子完全不一樣……"],["許委員宇甄：主委，當年的判決書特別講到：本案被告李進勇等人，行為雖然具偽造之形式，然而無罪的理由是因為未生實質損害，所以獲判無罪，並不是沒有這件事情，而是因為沒有實質的損害。請問一下李進勇主委，當時他們有清晨時分到你家去大搜索嗎？你們有被帶回偵訊一天一夜嗎？檢察官有申請聲押嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我跟委員……我不知道委員舊案重提到底是要掩飾什麼？你到底要掩飾什麼？你要掩飾現在司法機關在辦理的這些偽造案件嗎？"],["許委員宇甄：所以這個部分，我是要跟主委來探討，我沒有要掩飾什麼，我只是要跟主委探討，我們這樣子的案子應該要遵守偵查的比例原則……"],["李主任委員進勇：我的案子不足以掩飾鋪天蓋地的、組織性、系統性的犯罪行為……"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得您非常地幸運，因為你們當時有一個可以依法行政的好法官，所以才能夠這樣；如果是今天的話，你可能會被檢調搜索、你可能會被羈押，所以我覺得您很幸運，因為當年遇到了可以依法行政的好法官……"],["李主任委員進勇：我沒有抄名冊，也沒有偽造簽名、沒有盜刻印章，所以你提這個案子，無助於澄清你們組織性的犯罪。"],["許委員宇甄：所以李進勇主委，您不要惱羞成怒。"],["李主任委員進勇：我不會。"],["許委員宇甄：我現在跟你探討的就是，是不是依法行政的問題、有沒有依照比例原則，謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：我只是覺得你身為一個立法委員，怎麼會拿這種40年前的舊案，毫無理由的舊案來提出質疑。"],["許委員宇甄：不管是幾年前，明年的選舉已經開始用排黑條款，它是溯及既往，不管你多少年，你曾經犯過罪，依排黑條款，你就必須沒有辦法選舉，當時你為什麼不講這40年前的怎麼可以這樣做？"],["李主任委員進勇：你這個質疑的目的，最重要的一點是要讓全社會知道，你提起這案子，無助於掩飾你們組織性的犯罪，無助於掩飾你們組織性、系統性的犯罪。"],["許委員宇甄：所以李進勇主委，你不能自己一套標準，對別人是另一套標準，否則現在的排黑條款就不該溯及既往，你只要曾經犯罪，你就不能夠再繼續參政，所以我覺得標準要一致，謝謝主委。"],["主席（王委員美惠代）：我們感謝許宇甄委員的質詢。我們請牛煦庭召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":194,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-17","speakers":["牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","賴士葆","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我們請主委女主委有請"},{"start":14.762,"end":43.208,"text":"好主委先跟您請教一個問題現在這個罷免的領銜人目前我們的法規是規定如果他在領銜的過程當中不想要繼續當領銜人了他想跳船了只有兩個方式一個是他遇到死亡或者是說由第一階段提案人的超過一半必須要簽同意書才可以撤換對嗎是的那目前為止如果領銜人簽戶籍是不是仍有領銜資格"},{"start":45.328,"end":55.267,"text":"戶籍簽出不影響到他的這個資格好也就是說他即便簽了戶籍他還是有領銜人的資格但是他不能投三接的投票對嗎是的"},{"start":57.3,"end":79.857,"text":"那唯一的方式如果不是在這兩個條件以下也就是說沒有經歷這個死亡或者是一半的人的同意書那如果這個領銜人真的不想要繼續罷免唯一的方式就是不要親自送件到選委會打這個二接的罷免送過去對嗎送件只有合法的領銜人我們才受理"},{"start":80.697,"end":104.014,"text":"那意思是說如果領銜人現在不想要送件那有他可以有其他人帶送嗎授權是可以的所以如果他要授權他還是必須要有一個授權書或者是如何證明領銜人授權給其他人幫他帶送這個二階的連署書到選委會那這個都必須要能夠證明"},{"start":105.379,"end":125.58,"text":"如何包括包括二分之一的同意這同意是不是原來的這個沒有我的意思是說現在沒有換領銜人喔但是領銜人就是有其他的人他授權其他人幫他親送件因為本來的規定是說領銜人一定要親自送件嘛"},{"start":126.519,"end":147.971,"text":"已經要親自送件把這個對他可以委任嘛對那如果這個委任就是一定要有一個明確的委任書是這個領銜人親自委任其他人來幫他送這個連署書對嗎是的是的好那這個因為這個規定最近有一些相關的事件所以在這邊也讓所有的團體知道說接下來的規定應該就是照這樣走"},{"start":149.38,"end":156.523,"text":"OK 好那再來第二個跟您請教這個罷免連署書如何保障它的保管這個連署書的安全的問題因為其實上禮拜花蓮的這個微光團隊送件的時候發現說在選委會裡面不僅沒有人員助手然後也沒有任何的監視器也就是放在選委會裡面的這些連署書如何有安全的保障不得而知這個強度是非常非常弱的"},{"start":179.127,"end":184.81,"text":"那甚至是他們反映了之後當地的警方才說那我們會加強尋守來確保這些連署書的安全因為這些連署書都是公民風吹日曬雨淋在街頭上一份一份簽出來的很怕有中間有任何的遺漏或者是遭到外力的破壞"},{"start":199.016,"end":203.998,"text":"可是現在送到選委會了大家對這個選委會並不信任嘛畢竟這個民政處長也被羈押了甚至中間有非常多行政不中立的情況那我們要如何確保放在選委會裡面的這些聯署書是安全的呢根據這個總統跟副總統還有公職人選舉的印製分發保管的作業要點"},{"start":219.904,"end":245.789,"text":"其實裡面有相關的規定我認為是可以參考的裡面提到說保管的處所的出入管制環境維護警衛的助手或者是遺失毀損的通報機制都有明確的規定可是目前看起來這個罷免的相關的規定是可以適用這個的嗎如果可以的話那為什麼我們看到的是放在選委會裡面花蓮選委會裡面的這些聯署書如此的沒有保障呢"},{"start":247.434,"end":268.068,"text":"我們知道罷免的連署人的名冊他關係重大所以他的安全維護我們是要求要比照選票的成績來做安全維護也因此我們要求各地選委會至少要做到第一個"},{"start":269.489,"end":276.334,"text":"場地的安全是場地的安全包括消防安全包括這個電什麼的水你不要水噴出來對不可以變成說有外力去污漬或者是有人噴水或是不小心有人放火燒了嘛"},{"start":284.741,"end":296.466,"text":"這是一個第二個是人員的維護人員的維護除了我們選委會的地方的人員之外必要的時候人力不夠的話必要的時候還要雇用保全來做維護的工作"},{"start":302.948,"end":320.599,"text":"第三個非常重要的就是要跟當地的警務機關保持聯繫我們也行文給警政署以及各地的這個警察局請求他們支援警力能夠加強這個保管處所的這個巡邏安全的維護的工作"},{"start":321.72,"end":348.638,"text":"好 謝謝我們主委在這邊的說明我認為這樣的措施非常重要也感謝你們有注意到這件事情因為我們也很擔心以上說的這些情況萬一有一些意外發生會不會都是有人刻意為之我們當然要極力避免這樣的情況那當然我也不希望說到時候出現一些可能漏了幾百份 幾千份或者是有人刻意去"},{"start":350.499,"end":368.679,"text":"破壞或者是造成他的遺失那也擔心說會不會有人進出這個場所把他影印或是抄錄或者是刻意的洩漏這個都是我們非常擔心的事情所以在這邊也是再次的拜託中學會一定要確保連署書保管的安全"},{"start":369.219,"end":384.657,"text":"那最後一點時間我要接著前面幾位委員的詢問就是到底要如何做到選委會的利益迴避這件事因為現在的選委會的組成基本上就是地方的市政府怎麼說呢因為其實通常這個地方選委會的主委"},{"start":385.618,"end":396.902,"text":"就是要嘛就是市府的秘書長要嘛就是市府的可能市長自己兼任那裡面的總幹事也是明確的在組織規程裡面有規定說都是民政局長或處長或是副處長副局長大概就是這樣的組成那裡面的選委會雖然會有一些社會賢達人士但由於他主導的就是要嘛市長秘書長要嘛就是地方的民政處長"},{"start":411.127,"end":413.789,"text":"所以周慧你會發現在基隆在花蓮出現如此荒謬的事情雖然現在這兩位處長都已經被羈押了但是他們犯案的事實很明確利用護證系統濫查民眾的個資然後甚至是指派護證人員照著連署書上面的個資登門造訪這些連署的民眾這就是發生在基隆跟花蓮"},{"start":435.962,"end":463.762,"text":"很明確的犯案事實那如何確保選委會的公信力這件事情非常重要所以我也要請教我們中選會有沒有一些其他的方式或其他的建議加強地方選委會的公信力以及未來是不是有修正的可能讓選委會的組成是不要與市府如此重疊避免大家覺得你求冤兼裁判他可以直接把手黑手伸進選委會裡"},{"start":466.049,"end":490.288,"text":"好謝謝委員的指教第一點我要特別強調我們的選務非常的龐雜那也需要大量的人力所以在每次全國性的選舉地方政府給我們的幫助很多我們一向以來選務機關跟地方政府都是一個夥伴的關係所以我們除了感謝之外我們也對於地方政府"},{"start":491.308,"end":499.99,"text":"當然彼此的尊重信任地方的護證人員非常重要我們也都是基於信任希望他們可以把海報事情做好但是我必須要講主委剛剛基隆花蓮案例我已經講過了但是前兩天在台中甚至還發生說這個副總幹事台中選委會的副總幹事過去就是他們南區的區長那現在是專職的選委會副總幹事可是他"},{"start":516.974,"end":533.835,"text":"跑到選委會裡面現在當副總幹事之後直接現場查對甚至用正本套糧每一張聯署書是不是符合規格然後中間一度的經過大量的刪除是據理力爭之後才把多數的聯署書留下來"},{"start":536.409,"end":557.125,"text":"接著我要報告的就是說畢竟兼職的主任委員跟總幹事他們對於選務的法令對於選務的實際的運作並不是那麼熟悉所以當碰到選務的運作的時候我們特別要求專職的副總幹事"},{"start":558.826,"end":576.114,"text":"副總幹事是專職的這就是我說的他是專職的副總幹事可是他過去就是台中戶政系統出來的區長好這個當然啦當然這個我們也沒有辦法完全去避免這個東西所以要怎麼辦嘛我現在問你怎麼辦嘛很明顯他就行眾不中立啦中選會有這個指揮監督之權"},{"start":579.495,"end":597.378,"text":"我們要求我們專職的幹部一定要隨時提供正確的法令的資訊以及實務運作的相關的規定來給主任委員或者總幹事來提醒他們依法來行政"},{"start":598.459,"end":625.315,"text":"那再一點如果說這樣的提醒還沒有辦法來導正的話那中選會會介入的中選會不會聽任違法的狀況去進行我們不會這樣子做的至於怎麼做這個方法很多不過我們都是在尊重跟合法的情況之下來運作"},{"start":626.616,"end":646.819,"text":"好 謝謝中選會在這邊的承諾我就是希望說中選會要確保每一個縣市政府的選委會都可以做到依法行政然後不會有任何刁難 查水表行政部中立甚至濫用各自的行為我也利用這個機會跟各位報告一下剛剛提到台中的我們的陳副總幹事"},{"start":648.58,"end":669.578,"text":"據我們事後的了解雖然跟霸團之間大家有一些意見的出入但是溝通的結果之後都圓滿解決我們也沒有發現他過去因為他過去任何的職位經歷而有影響到選務中立他這樣一張一張用正本去套糧還沒有影響嗎"},{"start":671.399,"end":694.032,"text":"這個所謂的套糧這樣子的講法我不知道一指何為何他就是拿正本在這樣子格式有沒有對有沒有差這比用尺量還誇張好嗎查對的時候總是要有一個正本有一個我們的那個範本在那個地方要比對一下這個是正常的程序正常的程序大家不要把它特別的放大好啦那我還是希望中選會我們會注意你們的職責好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":419,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時22分）謝謝主席。我們請主委。"],["主席：李主委有請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：主委，先跟您請教一個問題，現在罷免的領銜人，目前我們的法規是規定，如果他在領銜的過程當中，不想要繼續當領銜人了、想跳船了，只有兩個方式可以處理，一個是他遇到死亡，或者是經第一階段提議人總數超過一半簽同意書才可以撤換，對嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["黃委員捷：目前為止，如果領銜人遷戶籍，是不是仍有領銜資格？"],["李主任委員進勇：戶籍遷出不影響到他的資格。"],["黃委員捷：也就是說，他即便遷了戶籍，他還是有領銜人的資格，但是他不能投三階的投票，對嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["黃委員捷：好。如果不是在這兩個條件以下，也就是沒有經歷死亡或者是沒有一半以上的人的同意書，而這個領銜人真的不想要繼續罷免，唯一的方式就是不要把二階的罷免連署書親自送件到選委會，對嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：只有合法的領銜人的送件，我們才受理。"],["黃委員捷：意思是說，如果領銜人現在不想要送件，可以由其他人代送嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：授權是可以的。"],["黃委員捷：所以如果他要授權，還是必須要有一個授權書，或者是證明領銜人授權給其他人幫他代送二階連署書到選委會？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個都必須要能夠證明。"],["黃委員捷：如何證明？"],["李主任委員進勇：包括二分之一的同意，這個同意是不是原來的……"],["黃委員捷：沒有，我的意思是說，現在沒有換領銜人，但是領銜人授權其他人幫他親自送件，因為本來的規定是領銜人一定要親自送件。"],["李主任委員進勇：他可以委任。"],["黃委員捷：對，他可以委任，而這個委任一定要有一個明確的委任書，是這個領銜人親自委任其他人來幫他送連署書，對嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：是的。"],["黃委員捷：因為就這個規定，最近有一些相關事件發生，所以在這邊也要讓所有的團體知道，接下來應該就是照這樣的規定在走。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["黃委員捷：再來第二個跟您請教的是如何保管、確保罷免連署書安全的問題。因為其實上禮拜花蓮微光團隊在送件的時候，發現選委會裡面，不僅沒有人員駐守，也沒有任何的監視器，也就是放在選委會裡面的這些連署書如何有安全的保障，就不得而知了，即這方面的強度是非常非常弱的，甚至在他們反映之後，當地的警方才說會加強巡守，來確保這些連署書的安全。因為這些連署書都是公民風吹、日曬、雨淋，在街頭上一份一份簽出來的，很怕中間有任何的遺漏或者是遭到外力的破壞。現在送到選委會了，但大家對這個選委會並不信任，畢竟其民政處長也被羈押了，甚至中間有非常多行政不中立的情況，那我們要如何確保放在選委會裡面的這些連署書是安全的呢？","根據總統副總統及公職人員選舉選票印製分發保管作業要點，我認為裡面有一些相關規定是可以參考的。裡面提到保管處所的出入管制、環境維護、警衛的駐守，或者是遺失、毀損的通報機制，都有明確的規定。看起來罷免的相關規定適用這部分嗎？如果可以的話，那為什麼我們看到放在花蓮選委會裡面的這些連署書是如此的沒有保障呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們知道罷免的連署人名冊關係重大，所以它的安全維護，我們要求比照選票的層級來做安全維護。也因此，我們要求各地選委會至少要做到第一個，場地的安全，包括消防安全、包括電或是水，比方說不能有水噴出來，然後把連署書破壞了。"],["黃委員捷：對，不可以變成有外力入侵或者是污染，或者是有人噴水或者是不小心有人放火燒了。"],["李主任委員進勇：這是第一個；第二個是人員的維護，除了我們選委會的地方人員之外，若人力不夠的話，必要的時候還要僱用保全來做維護的工作；第三個，非常重要的就是要跟當地的警務機關保持聯繫，我們也行文給警政署以及各地的警察局，請求他們支援警力，以加強保管處所的巡邏、安全維護的工作。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝主委的說明，我認為這樣的措施非常重要，也感謝你們有注意到這件事情，因為我們也很擔心以上說的這些情況，萬一有一些意外發生，會不會都是有人刻意為之？我們當然要極力避免這樣的情況發生，而且我也不希望到時候出現一些像漏了幾百份、幾千份的連署書，或者是有人刻意去破壞或者是造成它的遺失，也擔心會不會有人進出這個場所把它影印或是抄錄或者是刻意的洩漏，這都是我們非常擔心的事情，所以在這邊也要再次拜託中選會，一定要確保連署書保管上的安全。","最後一點時間，我要接著前面幾位委員的詢問，就是到底要如何做到選委會利益迴避這件事。因為現在選委會的組成，基本上就是地方的市政府，怎麼說呢？因為通常地方選委會的主委要嘛可能是市府秘書長，要嘛可能是市長自己兼任；在組織規程裡面也是明確規定，總幹事是由民政局長、處長、副處長或是副局長擔任，大概就是這樣的組成，而這些選委會雖然會有一些社會賢達人士的參與，但由於主導的人要嘛就是市長、秘書長，要嘛就是地方的民政處長。所以你會發現在基隆、在花蓮出現如此荒謬的事情，雖然現在這兩位處長都已經被羈押了，但是他們犯案的事實很明確，利用戶政系統，濫查民眾的個資，甚至指派戶政人員，照著連署書上面的個資登門造訪這些連署的民眾，這就是發生在基隆跟花蓮很明確的犯案事實，所以如何確保選委會的公信力，這件事情非常重要。","所以我也要請教中選會，有沒有其他的方式或其他的建議，以加強地方選委會的公信力？以及未來是不是有修正的可能，讓選委會的組成不要與市府如此重疊，避免大家覺得你球員兼裁判，甚至可以直接把黑手伸進選委會裡？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員的指教。第一點我要特別強調，我們的選務非常龐雜也需要大量的人力，所以在每次全國性的選舉，地方政府給我們的幫助很多。一向以來選務機關跟地方政府都是夥伴的關係，所以我們除了感謝之外，我們也對於地方政府願意……"],["黃委員捷：當然，彼此的尊重、信任地方的戶政人員非常重要，我們也都是基於信任，希望他們可以把事情做好。"],["李主任委員進勇：這是第一點，這個基礎非常重要。"],["黃委員捷：但是我必須要講，主委，剛剛有關基隆、花蓮的案例我已經講過了，但是前兩天在臺中甚至還發生臺中選委會的副總幹事過去就是他們南區的區長，現在是專職的選委會副總幹事，可是他現在到選委會裡面當副總幹事之後直接現場查對，甚至用正本套量每一張連署書是不是符合規格，中間一度經過大量的刪除，是據理力爭之後才把多數的連署書留下來！"],["李主任委員進勇：接著我要報告的就是，畢竟兼職的主任委員跟總幹事對於選務的法令、選務的實際運作並不是那麼熟悉，所以當碰到選務運作的時候，我們特別要求專職的副總幹事，副總幹事是專職的，必須要……"],["黃委員捷：是不是這就是我說的？他是專職的副總幹事，可是他過去就是臺中戶政系統出來的區長！"],["李主任委員進勇：當然，我們也沒有辦法完全避免這個狀況。"],["黃委員捷：所以要怎麼辦？我現在問你怎麼辦嘛？很明顯他就行政不中立。"],["李主任委員進勇：中選會有指揮監督之權，我們要求我們專職的幹部一定要隨時提供正確的法令資訊，以及實務運作的相關規定給主任委員或者總幹事，提醒他們依法行政。","再一點，如果這樣的提醒還沒有辦法導正的話，那中選會會介入，中選會不會聽任違法狀況進行，眼睜睜看這樣的狀況發生，我們不會這樣子做。至於怎麼做，方法很多，不過我們都是在尊重跟合法的情況之下來運作。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝中選會在這邊的承諾，我就是希望中選會要確保每一個縣市政府的選委會都可以做到依法行政，然後不會有任何刁難、查水表、行政不中立，甚至濫用個資的行為發生。"],["李主任委員進勇：我也利用這個機會跟各位報告一下，剛剛提到臺中的陳副總幹事，據我們事後的了解，雖然跟罷團之間有一些意見的出入，但是溝通之後都圓滿解決，我們也沒有發現他因為過去任何的職位經歷而有影響到選務中立的情形。"],["黃委員捷：他這樣一張一張用正本去套量還沒有影響嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：所謂套量這樣子的講法，我不知道意指為何？其實我們查對的時候一定……"],["黃委員捷：他就是拿正本看格式有沒有對、有沒有差，這比用尺量還誇張好嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：查對的時候總是要有一個我們的範本在，要比對一下，這個是正常的程序，大家不要把它特別放大。"],["黃委員捷：好啦，那我還是希望中選會秉持你們的職責。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們會注意！"],["黃委員捷：謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員的質詢。","下一位我們請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":194,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-17","speakers":["牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","賴士葆","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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各位先生 辛苦主委 在這裡本學會跟你談到的就是說因為在最近我們的選舉發生的時候應該是投機生 大家要拿 要簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽名簽"},{"start":37.623,"end":38.904,"text":"另外一種,把人家的籤,我們就要以罷之罷,要來籤,做一路補課的,來籤的當中,到我相信,到我們用車位,到有這麼多過往的人"},{"start":55.35,"end":57.252,"text":"在過往的人當中,你看我們基隆的面前處長,看完後,他剛才說,那一切不是你們的人啊!要不說不是你們的人,也是真正是你們地方選舉委員會的人啊!"},{"start":78.065,"end":90.291,"text":"在這個過程當中,我認為非常不該,也非常對北省、對政府,最好一個信任就沒有了像今天我們的董事"},{"start":95.967,"end":98.77,"text":"翁小玲立委,大立委喔,說如果選辦法有違法的、有不法的,應該是要所有的出力量"},{"start":114.724,"end":119.488,"text":"他的部分來處理,這樣是不對的主委,如果像這樣說,如果科技做表的人繼續做表跟檢考員看到也不可以再糾正,單方放出來的時候,再說他做表"},{"start":137.335,"end":138.676,"text":"又來討價錢,再討價錢之後,放茶餚去拿,拿到貴賃,拿到料,再用監視器說,這個茶餚在我們家做茶餚"},{"start":151.783,"end":159.985,"text":"再來想想,如果萬一有一天台灣讓我們逃不掉我們知道它已經要逃不掉台灣了我們還不可以說要等待台灣逃不掉之後還可以說嗎?如果它的論述、它的公法是這樣跟這個中華民國這樣覺得有關聯嗎?我們的公務人員"},{"start":183.318,"end":193.562,"text":"在兩百四十一條的 依然沒有不對我們本來就要來計劃 要來處理啦北省如果有這不對的規劃我們也需要來講咧什麼羨慕我們第二階段 第一階段處理了剛剛來來糾正主委"},{"start":211.618,"end":216.263,"text":"本席講到這氣氛,沒有找一個大大的立委,對他看來說他過勞多過勞,說這個委實在委上的不應該啦,假扮孩子大小,主委,在本席剛才所說的,你們委內"},{"start":236.865,"end":257.314,"text":"謝謝委員的指教中山會的做法是這樣我們根據平時所想法241條的規定只要我們在執行職務的時候發現有犯罪的嫌疑的話那我們在職務上就有告發的義務那這個告發的義務我的意思就是說你當時發現到你就當時去告發"},{"start":261.636,"end":269.018,"text":"即時的告發其實這個也是確保犯罪的追溯能夠有效的進行很重要的點那我們在告發之後司法機關他們辦案的節奏有他們一定的規定這個我們予以尊重"},{"start":290.083,"end":311.491,"text":"因為主委本省會跟你談到這個就是說因為選辦法是你們單位所去管理的白色的第一階段第二階段都是你們的管理的第三階段竟然是你們的管理的所以在這個規定當中我覺得不管的不管帶一棟帶一個單位都是要"},{"start":320.322,"end":325.667,"text":"下去做的啦 要舉報的啦因為我覺得最惡劣的就是你抄名也好 拿人的名也好你現在在那裡說這個有貴心或不貴心說實在 各自的東西 政府的東西可以這樣處理嗎"},{"start":345.828,"end":349.869,"text":"這基隆說實在 一定無法無聽啦實在亂來啦所以在這裡我覺得對任何一個百姓看到基隆發生這個事情大家都非常憤怒 不關大一棟的哪有做一個主觀做到去對這個問題啦"},{"start":376.46,"end":383.103,"text":"諸位,在這裏面,我認為這是非常悲傷,覺得對政府一種心內的苦惱因為我認為大家都說各自各自,大家說各自要保護保護和政府機關,但我們的各自是如此的囤堵"},{"start":401.789,"end":404.69,"text":"所以本市在這裡也要跟你說,我們的罷免的日期也有五月,也有六月二十的在這個過程當中,我們是不是可以因為我們這個要跟委員會開會嘛,當時要投票的"},{"start":427.24,"end":434.104,"text":"如果有幾個做一屆,是不是可以做回投票?因為,主委,我們是要給你的意見就是說,如果你們再開票的時候,是不是這個人那樣說,還有這麼多人,抱歉,不管是帶一張牌,我們為了要讓這個孫武靈丸做一屆,"},{"start":454.458,"end":462.642,"text":"比較方便 比較省 要不然為了國家的健全改開的時候的費用我們也要開啦尤其今年可能有公投的問題也已經提出啦在本省所了解可能是在八月二三啦在八月二三當中我們是不是可以跟"},{"start":483.511,"end":488.154,"text":"這會罷免選舉,這會提拔嗎?因為這我的意見給你,因為你也沒辦法我回答說可以不行啦"},{"start":495.435,"end":499.958,"text":"但是拜託主委如果開會前,跟委員會大家的意見都可以做參考主委我要來請教一下,我們的基隆發生這個事情,到不成為止你們如果請求全台灣的專務領域的地方主委開會嗎?來主委你回答"},{"start":527.585,"end":534.29,"text":"我們例行的會議每個月都有主管會報另外專案會議現在有專案專案跟例行的都會邀請我們各地的專職的副總幹事參加線上的會議每一次的這個會議我們都是針對各地在選務方面可能產生的問題"},{"start":555.586,"end":559.548,"text":"他們在執行的時候 有發現什麼疑問的問題 大家提出來做參考尤其這點非常重要 差不多每次都會說到 要堅持我們的選務中立這一點都會特別重點對啦 我們要中立啦 因為你沒有中立 像基隆這樣 國家就海洋洋了啦"},{"start":579.71,"end":583.112,"text":"跟應援組委我這次的時間到我後面還有兩件要這次的問題我會用書面幫你探討,麻煩你開給我好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":393,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時12分）主席，請主委。"],["主席：李主委有請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員，你好。"],["王委員美惠：主委早，辛苦了。主委，本席在這裡要跟你探討的就是有關最近的罷免。原先應該是大家在連署書上簽名，到最後發現怎麼有這麼多人要被罷免，另外一黨就說既然別人在發動簽名連署，他們也要以罷制罷，要來簽名連署，甚至做不法的事情來進行簽名連署，還用抄的，許多往生的人也抄進來。你看基隆市政府民政處處長有多惡質？剛才主委說已經不是選委會人員，不過就算不是，也曾經是你們地方選舉委員會的人，所以我覺得非常不應該，因為他讓百姓對政府最後的信任都沒有了。","像今天我們的同事翁曉玲立委、大立委說，如果依選罷法有違法的、有不法的，應該要等所有的都處理完，再處理不法的部分，這樣是不對的。主委，如果像他這樣說，難道考試作弊的人就繼續讓他作弊，即使監考員看到也不可以糾正，等到放榜的時候再說他作弊嗎？在家裡看到小偷偷錢，難道要等他偷完、把偷來的錢花完，再用監視器的畫面認定他在我們家偷錢嗎？再來，最惡質的就是萬一有一天他們要偷賣臺灣，我們已經知道他們要偷賣臺灣，我們卻不可以說，還要等到他們把臺灣偷賣掉以後才可以說嗎？照他這樣的論述、講法，中華民國還有法律嗎？依照刑事訴訟法第二百四十一條，公務人員如果看到有人做得不對，本來就要舉發、要處理；百姓如果有做得不對的、違法，我們也要跟他講。說什麼等第一階段、第二階段處理完再來糾正？主委，本席說到非常氣憤，他身為一個大立委，說自己對法律有多厲害，竟然說出這種話，實在非常不應該，「教歹囡仔大細」！主委，依本席剛才所說的，你認為呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員的指教。中選會的做法是這樣，根據刑事訴訟法第二百四十一條的規定，只要我們在執行職務的時候發現有犯罪嫌疑的話，我們在職務上就有告發的義務。這個告發的義務原則上就是什麼時候發現到，就在那個時候去告發。"],["王委員美惠：不分黨派，不分哪一黨的，不分藍綠白，只要發現有違法就要處理嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：即時的告發其實也是確保犯罪的追訴能夠有效地進行很重要的點。"],["王委員美惠：對。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們在告發之後，司法機關辦案的節奏有他們一定的規定，我們予以尊重。"],["王委員美惠：主委，本席之所以跟你探討這個，就是因為選罷法是你們主管的，第一階段、第二階段的連署都是你們主管的，第三階段更加是你們在管理的。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["王委員美惠：所以過程中，只要有不法，不管哪一黨、哪一個單位，都要加以舉報。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["王委員美惠：我覺得最惡質的就是抄名字也好、拿人家的名單也好，在那邊查對連署人有沒有往生，說實在的，個資的東西、政府的東西可以這樣處理嗎？基隆這個案子，說實在的，已經無法無天了，實在是亂來！主委，百姓看到基隆發生這種事情，不管哪一黨，大家都非常地憤慨，作為主管，竟然出這種問題！主委，這會讓百姓對政府一點信賴都沒有。大家都說個資、個資，要保護個資，政府機關居然把我們的個資這樣處理？","主委，罷免日期有5月，也有6月24日的，我們是不是可以……因為還要經過委員會開會，包括什麼時候要投票？如果有多人，是不是可以一起投票？本席的意見是，你們開會的時候，是不是可以考量，既然有這麼多人要被罷免，不管是哪一個黨派，讓選務人員一次處理比較方便也合適，但是為了國家的健全，該花的費用也要花。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["王委員美惠：尤其今年可能有公投，也已經提出來了，據本席所瞭解，可能是在8月23日，所以我們是不是可以把罷免的選舉一起舉辦？這是我的意見，雖然你也沒辦法回答我可以或是不可以，但還是拜託主委在委員會開會的時候，其實大家的意見都是可以拿來做參考。","主委，請教一下，基隆發生這種事情，到目前為止，你是否有請全臺灣與選務有關的地方主委來開會？請主委回答。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們有例行的會議，每個月都有主管會報。"],["王委員美惠：例行的我知道啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：另外也有專案會議。現在的專案跟例行會議，都會邀請我們各地專職的副總幹事參加線上的會議，每一次的會議，我們都是針對各地在選務方面可能產生的問題，他們在執行的時候，有發現什麼樣疑問的問題，大家提出來做參考，尤其這一點非常重要，即差不多每次都會說到要堅持我們的選務中立，這點都會特別強調。"],["王委員美惠：對啦！我們要中立啦！因為如果不中立，就像基隆這樣，這個國家的體制就被破壞了。主委，我的質詢的時間到了，後面還有兩個要質詢的問題，所以我會用書面來跟你探討，麻煩你再回復我。以上，謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王美惠委員的質詢。","下一位請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":194,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-17","speakers":["牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","賴士葆","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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這個不是發現啊媒體都登了啊對不對 媒體都登了那麼大啦也不是發現啊 對不對我為什麼那一部分 那一部分現在媒體登的看到的那一部分現在都還沒有還沒有涉入到我們的選務機關我們的選舉的業務裡面都還沒有欸 主委 這樣子講我就有點不認同"},{"start":423.645,"end":449.225,"text":"從一開始就是造假然後呢造假的人本身又是民政處長然後他又兼選委會總幹事這是違法的部分對啊那違法的部分這個都已經很明確了他到時候他又是在審查的一個機關如果是指特定的縣市的話他已經不是我們的總幹事了"},{"start":450.246,"end":461.888,"text":"我知道現在已經不是了啦不是現在在前一個案子就已經不是對他現在已經不是但我為什麼要特別提出這一個其他個縣市你保證都沒有嗎"},{"start":463.601,"end":482.534,"text":"我信任啦 我也相信所有的公務人員不管他兼任 他專職都應該能夠把持行政中立這個不變的原則我覺得啦 主委 我一開始就跟您說中選會是選政機關 不是選務機關"},{"start":487.057,"end":513.402,"text":"但選務機關幾乎都在各縣市直接執行但你也是可以直接監督的你不能讓一些事情一直發生這樣子會造成什麼後果你以後辦選舉人家會質疑所有的公信力一件一件這樣下來如果中選會也都沒有任何的作為處理你會造人民會對未來你的選舉"},{"start":515.067,"end":536.493,"text":"會不會有充分信任這一點一定要跟委員報告現在所有牽涉到違法的部分事實根據都是我們選務機關負責盡職所查出來的所抓出來的所以我們有盡到責任我不是說你沒有盡到責任我不是說你沒有盡到責任"},{"start":540.854,"end":551.529,"text":"所以我們還是會把關嘛你除了把關之外我剛特別想到你們辦理選務什麼講座這些你除了三聲五令之外其實你對他也沒有直接的"},{"start":552.746,"end":574.296,"text":"一個指揮的權限或什麼但該有的懲處該有的什麼其實也應該要做啊中選會不會無為啦我們有我們的作為我知道所以主委我只是提醒你這樣你不要到時候我們的選舉或什麼會變成民眾的不信任我覺得是會這樣因為選舉最怕的就是舞弊從以前的作票"},{"start":581.212,"end":607.428,"text":"灌票這選舉最擔心的就是舞弊那這次的很多的事情如果你要給他從法律上來看造假什麼的那就是舞弊了所以我覺得很多的事情要讓大家知道說對或不對我只是提醒你不要到後來大家對選委會各地的選舉產生不信任這我是"},{"start":608.479,"end":611.181,"text":"比較擔心的是未來台灣幾十年的這個選舉的運作我擔心的點是這裡啦"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":323,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時1分）請主委。"],["主席：李主委，有請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，選委會當然是一個中立的機關，也是辦選政的重要機關，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：選委會雖然有主委，但主委可以決定所有的事情嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們是一個委員制的機關。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！你們是要開委員會去作所有事情的決議，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：這些委員其實是社會賢達，各黨各派也都有人在裡面嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：是學有專精，而且具有社會公信力。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！所以很多的事情不是主委說的算吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：那當然！"],["張委員宏陸：這要尊重整個委員會的制度？"],["李主任委員進勇：是！"],["張委員宏陸：所以不是什麼事情主委就可以講的，因為裡面在開會，社會賢達、學有專精的每個人都可以提出意見，然後才作出最後的決定？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有錯。"],["張委員宏陸：所以有時候要主委說什麼，但你跟內政部長等人是不一樣的，是不是？立場是不一樣的吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：沒錯啦！所以很多事情並不是在這邊說主委說怎樣，因為最主要還是委員會的制度。不過，我要先問幾個問題，我今天看了你們的業務報告，你們還有參與國際選舉組織活動？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道臺灣的選委會其實在國際選舉組織裡面算是創始會員之一？"],["李主任委員進勇：是，我們有兩個組織都是創始會員國。"],["張委員宏陸：對，但預算被刪成這樣，你們還能去嗎？你還有錢去嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：比較拮据一點，但我們還是排除萬難，因為我們的會籍還是會被挑戰，所以我們是用積極參與的態度確保跟其他各會員國之間的關係，以確保、維護我們會員的權利。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道啊！我們是創始會員國之一，如果你常常一天到晚都不去，到時候被除籍怎麼辦？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以我才會問，你們的預算被刪成這樣，現在可以去嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：比較拮据一點，但是今年我們還是會排除萬難讓兩批都去參加。"],["張委員宏陸：還是有參加？"],["李主任委員進勇：還好今年是在菲律賓，比較省。"],["張委員宏陸：如果是在歐洲就沒辦法了吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：那就比較困難了。"],["張委員宏陸：如果是辦在歐盟就無法參加了嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：是，今年的兩個會都在菲律賓。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我知道。還有，你們有一個辦理選務幹部人員講習。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我想先請問一下，所有縣市的民政局長或民政處長是不是都是選委會的總幹事？"],["李主任委員進勇：總幹事照規定就是民政局處的首長或者是副首長、副主管。"],["張委員宏陸：法律規定民政局長大部分都要兼選委會總幹事，真正辦理選舉的是民政局長，因為總幹事要去辦理選舉，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：像是縣市首長掛名主任委員或是他要讓誰掛，其實他也沒有直接參與，當然他要直接參與也是可以，但地方也是委員制，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：我看報紙報導，我就不指名縣市了，有縣市的局長兼總幹事又做什麼的，我們先不講法律問題，結果就有一些行政不中立的情況出現了，主委，你有沒有注意到？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們基本上都予以尊重跟信任，因為選務的辦理需要地方政府大力的協助才能夠成功，所以我們對於兼任主任委員的三長，對於兼任總幹事的民政首長都予以充分地尊重。當然，我們也知道，因為他的專業畢竟不是在選務方面，所以有關選務法令、有關選舉實務的運作，他們也許並不是非常熟悉，所以我們在地方上專職的副總幹事就必須負起這個責任，隨時提供正確的資訊給主任委員、給總幹事，讓他們能夠在合法的情況之下帶動選務。"],["張委員宏陸：我就講得比較白一點，如果民政局長用戶役政系統去查資料，這樣有沒有違法？結果又是選委會去審查這些資料？這樣在行政上來講，你認為選委會的中立會不會因此被質疑？"],["李主任委員進勇：地方選委會依法必須受中央選舉委員會的指揮跟監督！雖然大部分的選務是在地方辦理，但是中選會也不是坐在那裡閒閒的，其實我們都在盯著，也都會聯絡各地的選委會，都有專屬的窗口，每天瞭解當地選務進行的狀況。如果發現有些狀況可能有違反法令之虞，我們都會加強溝通。"],["張委員宏陸：這個不是發現，媒體都登了，對不對？媒體都登到那麼大了，也不是發現，對不對？為什麼……"],["李主任委員進勇：媒體登的、看到的那個部分，現在都還沒有涉入我們選務機關及選舉業務。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，這樣講我就有一點不認同了！從一開始就是造假，然後造假的人本身是民政處長又兼選委會總幹事……"],["李主任委員進勇：這是違法的部分。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊！違法的部分都已經很明確了，到時候它又是審查的機關，這個……"],["李主任委員進勇：委員，如果是指特定縣市的話，他已經不是我們的總幹事了。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，他現在已經不是了啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：不是現在，在前一個案子就已經不是了。"],["張委員宏陸：對，他現在已經不是了。但我為什麼要特別提出這一個？其他各縣市你保證都沒有嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我信任，也相信所有的公務人員不管他是兼任還是專職，都應該能夠把持行政中立這個不變的原則。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，我一開始就跟你說，中選會是選政機關，不是選務機關，但是選務機關幾乎都在各縣市直接執行，不過你也是可以直接監督的。所以你不能讓一些事情一直發生，否則會造成什麼後果？你以後辦選舉，人家會質疑所有的公信力耶！一件一件這樣下來，如果中選會也都沒有任何的作為、處理，人民對未來的選舉會不會有充分的信任？這一點一定要很注意。"],["李主任委員進勇：跟委員報告，現在所有牽涉到違法的部分，事實根據都是我們選務機關負責盡職所查出來的、所抓出來的，所以我們有盡到責任，我們並不是沒有盡到責任。"],["張委員宏陸：我不是說你們沒有盡到責任。主席，再給我30秒。我不是說你沒有盡到責任……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們還是會把關。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，除了把關之外，我剛剛特別強調的，你們辦理選務、講座這些，除了三令五申之外，其實你對他也沒有直接的指揮權限或什麼，但該有的懲處、該有的什麼其實也應該要做啊。"],["李主任委員進勇：中選會不會無為，我們有我們的作為。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，所以我只是提醒你，不要到時候我們的選舉或什麼會變成民眾不信任，我覺得會這樣。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員宏陸：因為選舉最怕的就是舞弊，不管是以前的作票、灌票，選舉最擔心的就是舞弊。這次很多事情如果要從法律上來看造假、什麼的，那就是舞弊。所以我覺得很多事情要讓大家知道對或不對，我只是提醒你，不要到後來大家對選委會、各地的選舉產生不信任，我比較擔心的是未來臺灣幾十年選舉的運作，我擔心的點是這裡。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員、也是我們選務的前輩的提點，謝謝。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸召委。","下一位請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":194,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-17","speakers":["牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","賴士葆","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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台灣討論不在籍投票的制度已經超過20年了身為民主自豪的國家我們卻遲遲為依法在法治的層面建立完善的制度這無疑是民主發展的一大缺口不在籍投票的制度是保障人民投票權"},{"start":41.052,"end":55.002,"text":"擴大政治的參與還有深化民主重要的工具國際上包含美國、日本、韓國等許多國家的民主國家早已經實施多年台灣完全可以參考還有實踐而我們行政院目前也提出全國性公投公民投票不在籍投票的法案、草案投票法的草案"},{"start":69.852,"end":72.293,"text":"適用範圍限於說公民投票甚至排除與總統副總統還有立法委員選舉同日執行的公投請問我們主委你有這樣的理由還有設計的邏輯是什麼為何不能一併同日選舉呢"},{"start":94.85,"end":122.495,"text":"跟委員報告因為貴黨團已經提出這樣一個公投案立法院即將進行也許他如果說通過院會的話他會交到中選會來辦理公民投票那中選會既然是公民投票的主辦機關在這個時間點上就這個特定的案件我實在是不宜來表示我個人的意見"},{"start":123.575,"end":125.536,"text":"這點請委員能夠諒解這個是針對市啊為什麼有沒有認同有沒有認同說這樣子的一個公投會牽涉到我們中選會審查各方的意見所以我在這邊如果說我的意見是怎麼樣那對其他的委員是不尊重的"},{"start":147.444,"end":160.099,"text":"這個是你的工作不是尊重的問題我問你的工作你覺得有沒有認同委員的指教因為在今年四月份我們卓院長也在答詢中也表示可對市"},{"start":163.123,"end":167.084,"text":"公投開始試行因為對人的選舉比較複雜比較高但是這番話其實就反映什麼行政院長並不否定不在籍投票的可能性既然是對試公投可以規劃請問全國性選舉就是直接"},{"start":185.431,"end":206.751,"text":"这选集就是完全做不到吗我们认为不再集投票是找这不是技术的问题也不是制度不行而是政府与中选会根本没有积极要做这件事情所以我们台湾民众党才提出转移投票的制度"},{"start":207.552,"end":211.216,"text":"也多次向我們中選會溝通也建議當時中選會說改口說什麼問題在於民眾信任度不足現在你又說不是你不方便講所以說中選會是我曾經對這一項的制度你做過"},{"start":227.975,"end":231.181,"text":"民眾的信任度調查嗎還是你自己說的所以是否具體的資料可以提供嗎還是說根本就是我們行政太多的藉口而已呢"},{"start":246.939,"end":261.823,"text":"因為跟我們一貫的立場是一致的就是說對市的不在籍投票也就是公民投票的不在籍投票尤其是從移轉投票開始這個一向是中選會跟這個"},{"start":264.344,"end":278.053,"text":"內政部一向的這個意見我們甚至於具體的行動就是全國性公民投票不在籍投票法的草案已經二度送到立法院來所以你是支持我們啊前委員支持你要支持我們的這個不在籍投票的法案委員支持我們的這個因為他已經在立法院了嘛就是"},{"start":287.359,"end":305.197,"text":"在立法院你也是要表態支持還是不支持或者你調查有沒有調查的具體的資料委員所說的這個不在籍投票的這個公民投票我現在不能講支持不支持因為我要審議啊對啊你審議你支持就會這個就是大家就是"},{"start":309.028,"end":312.69,"text":"我們現在根據我們調查嘛 大家歡喜嘛 因為在20歲到29歲的 我們全國有七成支持移轉投票 還有年輕人支持最高了所以呢 我們在地工作啊 或者是離鄉的打拼的年輕人他們強烈的就是說 投票的需求 但是因為"},{"start":334.163,"end":350.141,"text":"阿姨这些工作读书啊这些所以呢我们也很清楚认知说制度是便利性结果我们政府就是就是一直在理由一堆就是不行动所以最照顾年轻人的"},{"start":351.483,"end":373.843,"text":"賴總統的政見就形成強烈的落差所以我們再來再問你的就是關於你的資料裡面有在報告目前在處理搜尋人請求設置投票所的行政輸送請問目前對於在監所的涉及"},{"start":374.443,"end":381.573,"text":"符合投票的資格收行人各監守的做法又為何中選會是否掌握這個人數還有在2023年10月台北高等行政法院的裁定"},{"start":393.739,"end":417.47,"text":"選務機構應該在台北監獄所設置投票所還有請問我們中小會你採取哪一些的措施所以未來在不採取投票的制度的推行的時候在受益人的時候他們投票的保障你有考慮嗎是說你有研議關於這個法律的行政配套嗎有嗎"},{"start":423.257,"end":440.646,"text":"關於授權人的投票權的保障這個在理論上我們也是支持的但是在選舉的實務以及監所的戒護實際的狀況底下的確有一些困難"},{"start":441.707,"end":444.789,"text":"就是因為有困難所以從去年從去年開始的這個個案的這個訴訟到目前為止那司法機關都支持我們的立場"},{"start":461.589,"end":464.912,"text":"我們再重申我們再次移轉投票最是最直接的還有說我們有最具名義的基本就是不在一起投票的方式同是選舉當天"},{"start":477.961,"end":481.264,"text":"人在台灣,在台灣,所以本人親自投票就能讓就是外地的人,就學的人民眾就是不用單車勞頓所以這偏鄉的人也可以在這樣子的一個具有意義所以我們的民眾黨主張,一貫的主張方向就呼應我們中選會,不要再用行政的困難的藉口"},{"start":502.182,"end":508.972,"text":"也不要做完成就是我們不再舉公投的制度所以我們是應該就提出說我們盡快提出就是涵蓋總統副總統立委啊這個選舉完整的版本這個才是"},{"start":519.467,"end":534.258,"text":"對選民還有對我們民主的基本的交代這個才是我們想要的我也對不起如果是這麼強烈的主張的話直接提案可能會比公民投票要快一點我們已經都提了直接提法律案但是你們都沒有立法權是在立法院裡面"},{"start":544.15,"end":558.919,"text":"立法權在立法院裡面我們提案也是大家同意三方溝通如果不用溝通的話就直接提了嘛叫你們來報告幹嘛呢如果要講效率的話其實是直接提案立法會比公民投票要快"},{"start":559.659,"end":562.48,"text":"我們要的是我們民意剛才跟你講的強調我們是要我們立法院我們是我們要行政公立你們有沒有依法行政對不對我們是民意的聲音要反映是我們要跟政府共同也是要民意共同不是說我們要提法案"},{"start":583.667,"end":590.913,"text":"要提法案也是民意需要不是我們自己說的算也不是你說的算你不是說你不是你說的算但是你有權利你有要做的義務要回答不是一直在說別人還是怎麼樣這是你的義務啊再來再問了這個說你就行政中立你都是說沒有出一個"},{"start":608.069,"end":610.972,"text":"一個真正的去做了但是現在是我們民間的我們人民作為一個人民做主的志工團他們這個組織目前有向中選會提出法律覆轍的公投有四個案其中一個公投案是在今年2月7號就提出了"},{"start":632.908,"end":643.982,"text":"依據公投法第10條第3項主管機關需要在60日內審核完畢但是認定是否有這樣子的規定還有"},{"start":646.414,"end":649.896,"text":"通知補正但是這個組織認為他在中選會提出由中選會提出的4月23日聽證距離2月7號的提案日已經超過76日請問主委這樣子是否"},{"start":667.286,"end":685.657,"text":"就違背公投案第十條第三項的六十天內的規定中選會是否認為公開聽證不屬於六十天審核的程序的一部分如果是 你的意志如何那是你專科的嗎 這樣回答可以嘛 對不對"},{"start":687.339,"end":707.231,"text":"我請我們同仁回答不是你專科你當主委不是你專科都問別人包委員有關這個提案60天審核如果有聽證的話是不包括在內的那我們這幾個案子都是在60天內提委員會來這個審核那是因為委員會議有決議說要繼續辦理聽證"},{"start":710.493,"end":713.875,"text":"所以說六十天內都是這個規定嘛但是現在是召開聽證會就是屬於這個程序嗎如果是你預計如何呢如果是這樣子的話通知完了法案先是就是影響人民公投案的權利嘛"},{"start":729.443,"end":757.196,"text":"但是是否影響這樣子的進行還有時程但是公投審查中中選會對某一些提案的理由書行政的嚴格就是議員的審查但是要補正或者返回這樣子的話我們主委這邊我們的中選會這邊審查提案時不同人提案提出的公投所以說是政治立場嗎有涉及政治立場還是比方說我們公投立場的執政黨"},{"start":758.917,"end":779.707,"text":"立場相同的話你就可以採取意氣審查的態度如何消除不同提案人審查的標準有這樣子的不信任感因為你是規定60天但是你在70天76天內你才有這樣子的召開聽證所以說的規定如何"},{"start":782.722,"end":787.808,"text":"阿你預計什麼 你要預計什麼 你這樣這麼做嘛你叫別人預計60天內 阿你自己沒有預計60天內那叫這些公民團體他們如何法律規定的審核60天不包含經證程序的進行"},{"start":801.903,"end":805.625,"text":"所以說就不包含所以如果這樣子的話他們在補正的時間60天內就是不包含所以他們就是在60天外他們就是管理公證後再來補正是嗎就是提案跟補正以後的審核都是法律規定都是60天聽證程序"},{"start":823.837,"end":833.161,"text":"的進行是不包含在這60天內不包含但是你的補正的時候你補正不再包含這樣子的話你就超過時間來去辦公對不對你開這個聽證會你超過時間了你補正的是在60天內啊你自己開的又再超過這個60天內你叫人家要怎麼報啊"},{"start":846.069,"end":850.131,"text":"這樣子就是因為這樣子他們才會在再來跟申訴嗎如果不是這樣子的話他們不會去申訴不會去說依據法律但是你們的聽證會就是在法律的60天內所以他們才會這個要說明讓這些民團他們才覺得說我們是怎麼去規定的你依據哪裡的這樣子大家"},{"start":872.661,"end":890.92,"text":"才會所以我希望這個部分你提出一個真正的說明所以我們希望就是我們的選舉的公投制度要有公信力來自中選會是否依法行政保障人民直接民權的行使如果主管機構是連就是"},{"start":894.923,"end":902.505,"text":"機構的連法都不能遵守 人民如何信任 我們是中立的所以專業的選舉機構 台灣的民主如何進步所以目前我們中選委應該會說不是只有針對罷免除了罷免 我們中選委還有其他的業務不管剛剛我提出的移轉投票還是收行人的投票的權利又是公投案的審查日期多希望我們主委有"},{"start":924.652,"end":929.654,"text":"書面的你現在因為時間的關係主席不好意思但是我們希望我們主委這邊要有改善還有說盡快就是符合很多工作我們沒有違反法律規定的時程所以我希望你就是要讓這些民團他們申請的結德說你超過這個時間但是他的補件時間在60天你超過來去辦卷我拜託委員能夠轉達"},{"start":951.26,"end":957.425,"text":"不是在六十天內我拜託委員能夠轉達這個民團好好珍惜這個聽證的機會因為那是對他們有幫助的當然啊當然是能珍惜是我們希望說你在規定內讓他們補件如果他們你放寬這樣子他們就不是在六十天內補證了好 那個請中選會補充好不好好 謝謝麥議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":262,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時45分）主席好。有請主委。"],["主席：李進勇主委有請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：主委好。臺灣討論不在籍投票制度已經超過20年，身為民主自豪的國家，我們卻遲遲未依法在法制層面建立完善的制度，這無疑是民主發展的一大缺口。不在籍投票制度是保障人民投票權，擴大政治的參與，還有深化民主重要的工具，國際上包含美國、日本、韓國等許多民主國家，早已經實施多年，臺灣完全可以參考還有實踐，而行政院目前也提出全國性公民投票不在籍投票法草案，但草案適用範圍卻限於公民投票，甚至排除總統副總統還有立法委員選舉同日舉行。請問主委，草案規定的理由還有設計的邏輯是什麼？為何不能一併同日選舉呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：跟委員報告，因為貴黨團已經提出這樣一個公投案，立法院即將進行討論，如果院會通過的話，會交到中選會來辦理公民投票。中選會既然是公民投票的主辦機關，在這個時間點上就這個特定的案件，我實在是不宜來表示我個人的意見，這一點請委員能夠諒解。"],["麥委員玉珍：這個是針對事啊，為什麼？有沒有認同……"],["李主任委員進勇：這會牽涉到我們……"],["麥委員玉珍：這樣子的一個公投……"],["李主任委員進勇：會牽涉到我們中選會審查各方的意見，我在這邊如果說我的意見是怎麼樣，對其他的委員是不尊重的，請您諒解，請您諒解。"],["麥委員玉珍：這個是你的工作，不是尊重的問題，我是問你的工作，你覺得有沒有認同？"],["李主任委員進勇：委員的指教……"],["麥委員玉珍：在今年4月份，卓院長也在答詢中表示，可由對事的公投開始試行，因為對人的選舉比較複雜、比較高，但是這番話其實就反映什麼？行政院長並不否定不在籍投票的可能性。既然對事的公投可以規劃，請問全國性選舉就完全做不到嗎？我們認為不在籍投票並不是卡在技術問題，也不是制度不行，而是政府與中選會根本沒有積極要做這件事情，所以我們台灣民眾黨才提出轉移投票的制度，也多次向中選會溝通，甚至提出建議。當時中選會改口說什麼問題在於民眾信任度不足，現在你又說不是，你不方便講，所以中選會是……我曾經問過，對這項制度你們做過民眾的信任度調查嗎？還是你自己說的，所以有具體的資料可以提供嗎？還是說根本就是行政怠惰的藉口而已呢？這個你可以回答了吧、沒有政治立場了吧！是不是？"],["李主任委員進勇：有一點我可以回答，因為跟我們一貫的立場是一致的，就是說對事的不在籍投票，也就是公民投票的不在籍投票，尤其是從移轉投票開始，這個一向是中選會跟內政部的意見，我們甚至採取具體的行動，就是全國性公民投票不在籍投票法的草案已經二度送到立法院來，請委員支持。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你是支持我們，是不是？"],["李主任委員進勇：請委員支持。"],["麥委員玉珍：你要支持我們所提不在籍投票的法案。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員可以支持我們的草案，因為它已經在立法院了，就是公民投票不在籍投票法……"],["麥委員玉珍：即使案子在立法院，你也是要表態支持還是不支持？或者你們有沒有具體的調查資料？如果有，請給我一份。"],["李主任委員進勇：不是，委員所說的不在籍投票的公民投票，我現在不能講支持、不支持，因為我要審議啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊！你審議、你支持就會……大家就是……現在根據我們的調查，20歲到29歲中，全國有七成支持移轉投票，所以年輕人的支持度是最高的。可見在地工作或者是離鄉打拼的年輕人有強烈的投票需求，但是因為礙於要工作、讀書，我們很清楚認知到制度應該有便利性，結果政府一直理由一堆，就是不行動，所以跟最照顧年輕人的賴總統的政見形成強烈的落差！","我要再問你的就是，在你的報告裡有提到，目前在處理受刑人請求設置投票所的行政訴訟，請問對於在監所的設籍，符合投票資格的受刑人，各監所的作法為何？中選會是否掌握人數？2023年10月，臺北高等行政法院裁定，選務機構應該在臺北監所設置投票所，請問中選會採取哪些措施？未來不在籍投票制度推行的時候，受刑人投票的保障你有考慮嗎？你有研議相關的行政配套嗎？有嗎？還是一樣，就是在研議？"],["李主任委員進勇：關於這個……"],["麥委員玉珍：這是你報告的、你自己報告的。"],["李主任委員進勇：受刑人投票權的保障，在理論上我們也是支持的，但是在選舉的實務以及監所戒護實際的狀況底下的確有一些困難，就是因為有困難，所以從去年……"],["麥委員玉珍：有困難才要你提出解決方案！"],["李主任委員進勇：從去年開始……"],["麥委員玉珍：每個都困難、每個都沒辦法做，這樣還要中選會幹嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：從去年開始的這個個案的訴訟，到目前為止司法機關都支持我們的立場。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，我們再重申，移轉投票是最直接的，還有我們有最具民意的基本……就是不在籍投票的方式，讓選舉當天只要人在臺灣，本人都可以親自去投票，如此外地的、就學的民眾不用舟車勞頓，偏鄉的人也可以在這樣子的一個具有意義……這是我們民眾黨一貫的主張，並呼籲中選會不要再以行政困難為藉口，要完成不在籍投票制度，並儘快提出涵蓋總統、副總統、立委選舉的完整版本，這個才是對選民、還有對民主的基本交代，這才是我們想要的。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員，對不起，如果是這麼強烈的主張的話，直接提案可能會比公民投票要快一點。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們已經都提了，現在是問你有沒有同意、有沒有說……"],["李主任委員進勇：直接提法律案。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是你們都沒有，所以現在……"],["李主任委員進勇：立法權是在立法院。"],["麥委員玉珍：立法權在立法院，我們提案也經大家同意，三方溝通，如果不用溝通的話就直接提了，叫你們來報告幹嘛呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果要講效率的話，其實直接提案立法會比公民投票要快，而且快很多。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們要的是民意！剛才也跟你強調要行政中立，你們有沒有依法行政，對不對？民意的聲音要反映，是我們要跟政府共同，也是要跟民意共同，不是說我們要提法案，要提法案也是民意需要，不是我們自己說了算，也不是你說了算，但是你有權力，你有要做的義務，不是一直在說別人還是怎麼樣，這是你的義務啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：我好心啦！"],["麥委員玉珍：再來是行政中立，我問你，你就是說不出一個真正的……現在民間有一個人民作主志工團，他們這個組織日前有向中選會提出法律複決的公投，有4個案，其中一個公投案在今年2月7號就提出了。依據公投法第十條第三項規定，主管機關需要在60日內審核完畢，並通知補正。但這個組織認為，中選會提出的4月23日聽證，距離2月7號的提案日已經超過76日，請問主委，這是否違背公投法第十條第三項60天內的規定？中選會是否認為開聽證不屬於60天審核程序的一部分？如果是，你的依據為何？這是你們負責的，應該可以回答，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：我請我們同仁回答。"],["麥委員玉珍：不是你負責的嗎？你當主委，不是你負責的嗎？還要問別人。"],["蔡處長金誥：報告委員，有關提案60天審核，如果有聽證的話是不包括在內的。這幾個案子都是在60天內提委員會來審核，因為委員會議有決議要繼續辦理聽證，因為它又……"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊！所以在60天內都符合這個規定，但召開聽證會也是屬於這個程序嗎？如果是，你預計如何？這樣子就是影響人民提出公投案的權利，甚至影響案子的進行還有時程。公投案審查中，中選會對某一些提案的理由書進行行政審查，也可以補正或者駁回。但中選會在審查提案時，針對不同提案人所提出的公投却有政治立場……比方說公投立場跟執政黨立場相同的話，就可以一起審查，這讓不同的提案人對審查標準有不信任感，因為規定是60天，却到76天才召開聽證，所以規定到底如何？你依據什麼這麼做？你叫別人在60天內完成，但你自己沒有在60天內完成，叫這些公民團體怎麼辦？"],["蔡處長金誥：法律規定的審核60天不包含聽證程序的進行。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以就不包含？所以……"],["蔡處長金誥：不包含聽證時間。"],["麥委員玉珍：如果這樣子的話，補正的時間也不包含在60天內？所以他們就是在60天外，他們等你聽證後再來補正，是嗎？"],["蔡處長金誥：就是提案跟補正以後的審核，法律規定都是60天……"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊！"],["蔡處長金誥：至於聽證程序的進行是不包含在這60天以內。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是補正不包含的話，就超過時間了，對不對？開聽證會的時間超過了。補正是在60天內，聽證是你自己開的，又超過60天內，你叫別人怎麼補？對吧？就是因為這樣子，他們才會來申訴！如果不是這樣子的話，他們不會提申訴，你們的聽證會就是要在法律規定的60天內，所以他們才會……這個要說明，讓這些民團知道你們是怎麼規定的，你是依據哪裡的，這樣子大家才會……所以我希望這部分你提出說明。","我們希望選舉和公投制度要有公信力，而中選會是否依法行政，保障人民直接民權的行使，如果主管機構都不能遵守法律，人民如何信任你們是中立的？沒有專業的選舉機構，臺灣的民主如何進步？目前中選會應該不是只針對罷免，除了罷免，中選會還有其他的業務。不管是我剛剛提出的移轉投票還是受刑人的投票權利，抑或公投案的審查日期，都希望主委提書面說明。現在因為時間的關係，主席，不好意思，但是我們希望主委這邊能有所改善，並儘快符合很多工作……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們沒有違反法律規定的時程。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我希望你要讓這些民團在申請的時候就知道，補件時間就是60天……"],["李主任委員進勇：而且我建議也拜託委員能夠轉達……"],["麥委員玉珍：你們超過時間去辦聽證，而且補件的時間也不是60天……"],["主席：好，謝謝，請會後溝通，好不好？"],["李主任委員進勇：我拜託委員轉達民團，能夠好好珍惜聽證的機會，因為那是對他們有幫助的。"],["麥委員玉珍：當然啊！他們當然珍惜，但我們希望你在規定時間內讓他們補件；如果你放寬的話，這樣他們就不是在60天內補正了，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請中選會會後補充，好不好？謝謝麥玉珍委員。","下一位我們請張宏陸召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":194,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-17","speakers":["牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","賴士葆","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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再過兩週我們可以看到賴清德總統即將就任滿週年那我們不想看到的是說在這一年賴總統他的執政我們沒有看到什麼的表現只是不管是執政黨在野黨他不斷的鬥爭"},{"start":33.416,"end":58.794,"text":"那我們現在剛剛看到你的資料看得到今年這個罷免公職員的部分已經累積到六十幾案了那其實民眾眼睛是雪亮的其實民調顯示將近六成以上的民眾是反對現在這樣子的惡意的一個罷免因為台灣的人民看到現在不管是美國的高關稅以及新台幣匯率的升值的等問題"},{"start":60.765,"end":87.387,"text":"以及這個不管是中共的軍援等等兩岸的局勢很明顯的緊張其次升溫那我們不希望政府還在搞大罷免那尤其人民心中非常不滿去年才剛經過總統立委選舉那今年又要開始這個罷免選舉還要再加上補選明年還要再繼續這個縣市長跟地方議員里長的選舉其實這個選舉是非常的多人民非常的不滿意"},{"start":88.368,"end":97.255,"text":"那主委你從2019年上任直經滿6年了那不管是蔡英文政府直到現在賴清德政府只有賴清德政府"},{"start":98.342,"end":118.759,"text":"在執政的時候有這麼多的罷免案所以很明顯看出來這個賴清德總統是不是所謂的鬥雞總統鬥雞政府那本席在這邊是不是想請教我們主委的部分今年也是一個很特別的一年除了剛剛我講這麼多的選舉最近這麼多的選舉今年還有一個很特別的就是公投的選舉那因為"},{"start":121.342,"end":135.742,"text":"罷免跟公投是否能綁在一起其實法無明文規定就像剛剛主委講的是由委員會來決定那公投法第23條第一項有規定公民投票日是低於8月的第四個星期六"},{"start":136.443,"end":159.045,"text":"那從民國這個110年起沒兩年舉行一次所以今年就是定在今年的8月23號那請問主委這是我一個比較這個卑微的請求因為今年本黨也有提出兩個公投案現在正在審查中現在正在提案中就是反廢止跟反戒嚴的這個公投案那請問主委"},{"start":160.226,"end":188.023,"text":"今年的這個所有你剛剛講的這個罷免案有沒有辦法跟公投案綁在一起那因為這樣子是可以節省很多的行政成本以及這個人民的納稅錢那我聽說如果沒有綁在一起每投一張公投票可能要花人民一千五百塊的納稅錢是不是有機會請主委在這邊表示有沒有機會這樣我們今年這麼多的罷免案可以跟公投案綁在一起請主委回答"},{"start":188.203,"end":205.002,"text":"好謝謝委員的指教有關於公投的部分如果是立法院做成決定交付中選會來辦理投票的話他的時間是非常確定的也就是公投日就是根據公投法8月23日這是確定的"},{"start":208.286,"end":236.723,"text":"那立法院送過來的話要讓我們有90天之前的一個宣告所以立法院大概在5月24、25這個中間應該要送到中選回來我們才有時間來進行公告這是確定的但是有關於罷免的案件因為他成案的時間不同因為他查對的時間會有落差"},{"start":237.643,"end":254.198,"text":"所以而且而且他的這個投票的時間法律有明文規定就是必須要在成立20到60天之內要辦理投票所以罷免案的時間比較複雜他到底什麼時候具備"},{"start":255.979,"end":280.389,"text":"的這個條件是到達可以這個宣告成立我們真的是現在難以預料所以委員垂詢的到底有沒有可能雖然法律沒有規定說可以合併但是有沒有可能合併在一起我實在是沒有辦法做逆料這個問題也只能夠提到我們委員會去根據當時的狀況再來做討論決定"},{"start":283.07,"end":298.105,"text":"主委我剛剛沒有因為我沒辦法參加委員會所以我剛剛有請教你就是為了節省別人大稅錢跟節省很多的行政成本您個人支不支持在委員會的時候您支不支持公投應該跟罷免案綁在一起我第一個就是一定要合法"},{"start":298.891,"end":326.944,"text":"一定要合法第二個當然要減少社會成本的支出所以你會支持這是非常非常重要的第三還要考慮到我們選務的能量基於這三個考慮我們委員會會做深入的討論好那主委支不支持這不是我支不支持的問題我就說必須要這三個同時考量你反不反對我沒有預設立場"},{"start":328.376,"end":355.936,"text":"好那我就請主委要在合法合規而且節省這個人民納稅錢行政支出以及投票的量能之下好好來幫人民節省納稅錢可以嗎我剛剛就提到這三點好謝謝那第二個問題我想要請教主委根據中選會的報告我剛有提到現在進行的罷免案將近有59案那包含大概大部分包含的是立委的這個補選案立委有50案大部分都立委的這個"},{"start":358.197,"end":387.091,"text":"這個罷免案嘛那一個立委其實基本上依照規定大概可以代表30萬的選民那如果是整個選舉罷免案的成立大概會有1500萬的這個選民的這個選區的選民在投票那我想要請問主委那現在你們有預計說辦理罷免需要花多少經費那經費的來源是怎麼樣嗎那當然要順便一提我認為中選會很辛苦每年都要辦選務工作是不是可以請主委回答大概會花多少錢那經費的來源大概在哪裡"},{"start":388.443,"end":415.235,"text":"我們為了這個經費的問題的確是很傷頭腦筋因為他不確定的因素很多啦尤其是到底有幾個案子你現在進行中的案子如果全部成案的話你有沒有統計過會花多少經費我們只能夠說過去的經驗一個個案一個個案因為規模大概大小固然有差別但是差也不會太多啦每一個議員每一個立委的選區的規模"},{"start":417.296,"end":442.922,"text":"他的地域的規模人口的這個多寡都會影響我們舉去年的中二選區來講的話他大概是花了將近兩千萬一千九百萬一個選區花兩千萬那如果以台北第五選區的話他人口是少了一點也就是比較集中所以大概會花十幾億他是一千五百萬左右"},{"start":444.022,"end":444.862,"text":"那請問主委這個經費大概你們會從哪裡來支應"},{"start":464.559,"end":483.112,"text":"這個因為中選會的年度預算沒有辦法去預料是不是從行政院的第二預備金來支付一定要申請行政院來動資第二預備金那我要跟主委報告這行政院第二預備金其實新聞媒體有在報導他其實過去都在救災所使用的所以我當然等期是非常不願意看到"},{"start":483.973,"end":510.931,"text":"不管是國民黨民進黨的立委都被罷免那從這次的全國大罷免中其實中委會主委的立場非常重要你是不是覺得說現行的罷免案的門檻25%就可以10%就可以連署25%就可以罷免過關門檻是不是過低所以你認為說這有沒有需要修法大家可以來討論來避免導致這個大罷免變成人民選舉會很疲乏以及這個公奴的耗損主委請回答"},{"start":512.167,"end":529.219,"text":"現行法律規定的門檻也是立法院通過的我們就按照立法院通過的法律來執行至於門檻的高低 社會各界的看法我想大家多多交換意見立法院如果認為有修法的必要的話我們也表示尊重"},{"start":529.679,"end":545.014,"text":"好 那一段待會大家就可以繼續討論那最後我要請教主委就是說在這次罷免連鎖中選會的立場非常重要可是我們也看到很多程序上有不明確的地方比如說在一開始第一屆在連鎖的時候那時候我就有請教主委"},{"start":545.655,"end":571.316,"text":"一年內不得提罷免可是一年內到底可不可以辦連署活動跟辦連署當時您是說法無明文規定或者是您是跟我講說沒有人檢舉可是我們看到這個情況在地方發生得非常嚴重所以2月3號送件的時候2月1號2月2號是假日我們看到2月3號的時候送了非常多的件數進來就變成說程序上其實我認為中選會有很多沒有辦法提供"},{"start":572.557,"end":582.282,"text":"這個被罷免人一個很明確的解釋那我們現在看到其實現在第二階段罷免的是60天的連署期間可是我們發現60天連署很多罷免團體送進了以後還繼續在連署"},{"start":587.199,"end":602.359,"text":"所以變成說他現在審查期的40天他可以繼續再連署或者是甚至審查完了以後如果裡面內容如果有一些還要補件的話還有10天可以補件變成還有50天的連署的期間那本席是認為我不是公民團體罷免"},{"start":604.261,"end":619.097,"text":"所做的事情我們都能尊重可是這會讓被罷免人他們心裡會覺得說不是就是60天的連署期嗎怎麼會變成說這個連署完交卷了以後考試完交卷了以後還可以繼續再寫考卷所以中選會在這邊你們"},{"start":621.159,"end":637.057,"text":"覺得這樣子的做法是你們認同的嗎還是現在是法無名門規定所以我的意思就是說現在的因為大家認為我們的台灣是民主社會我們投票民主選舉的法律的概念是很嚴格的可是罷免因為以前沒有那麼多的案子所以變成中選會如果沒有辦法"},{"start":638.078,"end":656.093,"text":"提供了很明確的一個程序的話其實被罷免方不管是國民黨跟民進黨的立委或議員會造成好像罷免變成霸凌造成地方的分裂跟等等衝突所以請主委來解釋一下現在變成罷免到的是60天還是連這個補屆跟審查時間都算罷免連署期間"},{"start":657.109,"end":674.022,"text":"第一點就是有關於這個提議的部分提議就是送件應該在任期滿一年以後了但是其實當然我們也知道有很多提議的這個倡議在一年以前就已經是結束了連署單在一年前簽的啊那這個是法務"},{"start":674.722,"end":704.002,"text":"我們規定所以就程序就不明確我認為這是屬於人民的自由選委會也沒有辦法去進行所以我跟你講主委選舉投票是自由民主就是很明確罷免我認為應該也有很明確的選舉這樣才公平才對等所以為什麼我會跟你報告這件事情就是選完舉以後就開始分裂就開始衝突民眾沒有辦法修身養息就變成說選舉完以後馬上進行罷免就是因為程序不確定好那請主委繼續回應謝謝好那有關於連署的部分"},{"start":706.622,"end":729.807,"text":"法也是沒有明文規定對啊 所以我就說主委法永遠都沒有明文規定主委的態度跟主委你要把這些情緒弄得很清楚我們從一個法律規定的這個辦法可以來尋求答案也就是說法律的規定是說你這個連署人名冊送進來之後經過我查對你少了"},{"start":730.467,"end":747.865,"text":"你少了少了幾份所以法律規定你有10天的時間可以來補那審查期間可不可以連署10天的期間裡面你又要他補你又不准他去連署那這個是會有矛盾的那40天的審查期可不可以連署"},{"start":748.925,"end":777.598,"text":"40天的審查期所以法也沒有禁止的規定對啊 所以我要跟主委講就是因為法沒有規定的話讓地方造成分裂跟衝突嘛就大家每天只要選完舉就一直在地方連署嘛是 這個連署雖然選報法雖然是沒有明文規定但是相關的法律尤其是包括各自的保護的法律呢還是必須要遵守那到底40天的審查期可不可以連署主委可不可以明確的回應40天的審查期裡面我們管不到啊"},{"start":778.298,"end":797.22,"text":"還是法無名額規定對 我們管不到所以主委我要跟你報告的是說看大家投票什麼時候60天才能做些選舉活動這些都規定得非常的明確就是因為罷免過去沒有那麼多的審查案件導致不管是這個人民被罷免方我們被罷免的這個民眾"},{"start":797.981,"end":823.821,"text":"他們都無所適從因為被罷免方式不能這個募款等等這些那我們現在都尊重現在的規定可是我認為主委你應該要在這個在這次的大罷免以後我們應該學習到一個教訓怎麼樣讓台灣的民主社會大家是可以平衡的比如說選舉完以後就開始連署就開始罷免也沒有任何明文規定那送件了以後繼續可以連署造成地方的整個衝突民人命的衝突我認為是非常的"},{"start":825.999,"end":843.108,"text":"所以在這邊我希望說政府我們的賴總統執政應該好好拚民生不要拚鬥爭所以我希望說如果人民覺得說這次的罷免而且像主委剛剛的回應來講很多的程序是不明確的大罷免變成是大"},{"start":843.908,"end":860.584,"text":"大惡霸變成是什麼大霸凌所以我認為這樣是非常不好的所謂的沒有明文規定跟不明確其實並不一定畫上等號沒有明文規定的話就是百姓你去做我不處罰你"},{"start":862.675,"end":886.737,"text":"那也是很清楚的,不能說他不明確所以我的意思就是說,這樣子的制度造成地方的分裂到人民一直會覺得他好像天天在選舉,天天在看到一些政治活動沒辦法修身養息啊所以我希望主委,不管是主委還是賴清哲政府應該要體察剛剛我提到六成以上,六成的民眾他是反對這樣子惡霸的齁這裡希望說,主委不管是門檻的部分,大家都還有討論的空間"},{"start":887.898,"end":911.494,"text":"所以現在看到這麼多的罷免案其實造成社會的分裂而且現在整個台灣的政治環境是不能嘴巴說要對外一次團結我們尊重立法院或者是社會各方面的聲音我們要尊重主委那拜託說希望未來這個整個也希望是台灣的最後一次大罷免那我這邊也要呼籲如果覺得這個活動不合理的人應該出來反對一下更重要的是大家要守法"},{"start":911.914,"end":919.065,"text":"我們珍惜我們民主的成果大家要按照法律規定的進行選完以後就不應該翻桌嘛好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":183,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時29分）謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員、各位媒體朋友，大家早。有請李進勇主委。"],["主席：李進勇主委有請。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：主委好。主委，再過2週，我們可以看到賴清德總統即將就任滿週年，在這一年賴總統的執政，我們沒有看到有什麼表現，只是不管是執政黨、在野黨不斷地鬥爭，卻對我們剛剛從你的資料看到今年罷免公職人員已經累積到六十幾案了。其實民眾的眼睛是雪亮的，根據民調顯示，將近六成以上的民眾反對現在這樣的惡意罷免，因為臺灣人民看到不管是美國的高關稅及新臺幣匯率升值等問題，還有中共軍演和兩岸局勢明顯緊張、情勢升溫等等，都不希望政府還在搞大罷免。尤其人民心中非常不滿，去年才剛經過總統、立委選舉，今年又要開始罷免，再加上補選，明年也還要舉行縣市長跟地方議員、里長的選舉，選舉非常的多，人民非常的不滿意。","主委，你從2019年上任至今滿6年了，從蔡英文政府到現在的賴清德政府，但在賴清德政府執政時卻有這麼多的罷免案，所以很明顯看出來賴清德總統是不是所謂的鬥雞總統、鬥雞政府？本席在這邊想請教主委，今年是很特別的一年，除了剛剛我講的這麼多選舉，今年還有一個很特別的公投選舉，因為罷免跟公投是否能綁在一起，其實法無明文規定，就像剛剛主委講的，是由委員會來決定。公投法第二十三條第一項規定，公民投票日定於8月的第4個星期六，從民國110年起，每二年舉行一次，所以今年就是定在8月23號。主委，這是我的一個比較卑微請求，因為今年本黨也有提出兩個公投案，現在正在提案中，就是反廢死跟反戒嚴的公投案。請問主委，今年所有的罷免案有沒有辦法跟公投案綁在一起？因為這樣可以節省很多的行政成本以及人民的納稅錢。我聽說，如果沒有綁在一起，每投一張票，可能就要花人民1,500塊的納稅錢，是不是有機會請主委在這邊表示，有沒有機會讓今年這麼多的罷免案可以跟公投案綁在一起？請主委回答。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員的指教。有關於公投的部分，如果是立法院做成決定，交付中選會來辦理投票的話，它的時間是非常確定的，也就是公投日根據公投法……"],["張委員智倫：8月23日。"],["李主任委員進勇：8月23日是確定的。"],["張委員智倫：是。"],["李主任委員進勇：立法院送過來的話，要讓我們有90天的宣告，所以立法院應該要在5月24日、25日送到中選會來，這樣我們才有時間來進行公告，這是確定的。"],["張委員智倫：是。"],["李主任委員進勇：但是有關於罷免的案件，因為它成案的時間不同，查對的時間會有落差，而且投票時間法律有明文規定，必須要在成立20到60天之內辦理投票。所以罷免案的時間比較複雜，到底什麼時候所具備的條件到達才可以宣告成立？我們現在真的是難以預料。因此委員垂詢的到底有沒有可能？雖然法律沒有規定可以合併，但是有沒有可能合併在一起，我實在沒有辦法預料。"],["張委員智倫：好。"],["李主任委員進勇：這個問題也只能夠提到我們委員會去，根據當時的狀況再來討論決定。"],["張委員智倫：主委，因為我沒辦法參加委員會，所以我剛剛有請教你，為了節省人民納稅錢跟節省很多的行政成本，您個人在委員會的時候支不支持公投應該跟罷免案綁在一起？"],["李主任委員進勇：第一個，一定要合法。"],["張委員智倫：絕對是合法。"],["李主任委員進勇：第二個，當然要減少社會成本的支出……"],["張委員智倫：所以你會支持？"],["李主任委員進勇：這是非常非常重要的。第三個，還要考慮到我們選務的能量，基於這三個考慮，我們委員會會做深入的討論。"],["張委員智倫：好，那主委支不支持？"],["李主任委員進勇：這不是我支不支持的問題，我是說必須要這三個同時考量。"],["張委員智倫：那你會反對嗎？你反不反對？"],["李主任委員進勇：我沒有預設立場。"],["張委員智倫：好，那我就請主委要在合法、合規而且節省人民納稅錢、行政支出，尤其是在投票的量能之下，好好來幫人民節省納稅錢，可以嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我剛剛就提到這三點。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。第二個問題，我想要請教主委，根據中選會的報告，我剛才也有提到，現在進行的罷免案將近有59案，大部分包含的是立委的……"],["李主任委員進勇：立委有50案。"],["張委員智倫：立委有50案，大部分都是立委的罷免案。其實一個立委基本上依照規定大概可以代表30萬的選民，如果這整個選舉罷免案成立，大概會有1,500萬的選區選民在投票，那我想要請問主委，現在你們有預計辦理罷免需要花多少經費？經費的來源是怎麼樣嗎？當然要順便一提，我認為中選會很辛苦，每年都要辦選務工作，是不是可以請主委回答，大概會花多少錢？經費來源大概在哪裡？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們為了這個經費問題的確是很傷透腦筋，因為不確定的因素很多，尤其是到底有幾個案子……"],["張委員智倫：以現在進行中的案子，如果全部成案的話，你們有沒有統計過會花多少經費？經費來源是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們只能夠以過去的經驗，以一個個案來說，規模大小固然有差別，但是也不會差太多，每一個立委的選區地域規模、人口多寡都會影響。我們舉去年的中二選區來講的話，大概是花了將近2,000萬……"],["張委員智倫：一個選區花2,000萬？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果以臺北第五選區來講的話，他們人口是少了一點，也比較集中……"],["張委員智倫：好，所以大概會花十幾億嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：大概是1,500萬左右。一個案子如果平均抓1,700、1,800萬，這樣大概可以抓出一個數，我們必須要抓出大概的需求數，我們才能夠……"],["張委員智倫：好，了解。請問主委，經費大概你們會從哪裡來支應？"],["李主任委員進勇：因為中選會的年度預算沒有辦法去預料……"],["張委員智倫：是不是從行政院的第二預備金來支應？"],["李主任委員進勇：一定要向行政院申請動支第二預備金。"],["張委員智倫：好，我也要跟主委報告，針對行政院的第二預備金，其實新聞媒體也在報導，它其實過去都是在救災使用，所以本席當然非常不願意看到，不管是國民黨、民進黨的立委都被罷免。從這次的全國大罷免中，其實中選會主委的立場非常重要，你是不是覺得現行罷免案的門檻10%就可以連署、25%就可以罷免過關，這個門檻是不是過低？你認為這有沒有需要修法？大家可以來討論，避免大罷免導致人民對選舉的疲乏以及公帑的耗損。主委，請回答。"],["李主任委員進勇：現行法律規定的門檻也是立法院通過的……"],["張委員智倫：對，你會不會覺得……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們就按照立法院通過的法律來執行，至於門檻的高低，社會各界的看法，我想大家可以多多交換意見，立法院如果認為有修法的必要，我們也表示尊重。"],["張委員智倫：好，那就可以繼續討論了。最後我要請教主委的就是，在這次罷免連署中，中選會的立場非常重要，可是我們也看到很多程序上不明確的地方，比如說一開始在第一階段連署時，那時候我就有請教過主委，一年內不得提罷免，可是一年內到底可不可以辦連署活動跟辦連署？當時您說法無明文規定或者你是跟我講說沒有人檢舉，可是我們看到這個情況在地方發生的非常嚴重；2月3號送件時，2月1號、2月2號是假日，我們看到2月3號送了非常多件進來，就變成說程序上……其實我認為中選會有很多沒有辦法提供被罷免人很明確的解釋。我們現在看到第二階段罷免是60天的連署期間，可是我發現這60天的連署，有很多罷免團體送件了以後還繼續連署，變成現在審查期40天後可以再繼續連署；甚至審查完了以後，如果裡面內容有一些要補件的話，還有10天可以補件，變成另外有50天的連署期間。本席認為，我們對於公民團體為罷免所做的事情都能尊重，可是這會讓被罷免人的心裡會覺得：不就是60天的連署期嗎？怎麼會變成連署完，交件了以後……就像考完試交卷了以後還可以繼續再寫考卷？所以這樣的做法是中選會認同的嗎？還是現在也是法無明文規定？所以我的意思就是說，關於現在的，因為大家認為我們臺灣是民主社會，我們投票、民主選舉的法律概念是很嚴格的。可是罷免因為以前沒有那麼多的案子，所以變成中選會如果沒有辦法提供一個很明確的程序的話，其實對被罷免方，不管是國民黨跟民進黨的立委或議員，會造成好像罷免變成霸凌，造成地方的分裂跟團體的衝突。所以請主委解釋一下，現在罷免到底是60天，還是連補件跟審查時間都算罷免連署期間？"],["李主任委員進勇：第一點，有關於提議的部分，提議就是送件，應該在任期滿一年以後，但其實我們也知道，有很多提議是在一年以前就已經開始進行……"],["張委員智倫：連署單是在一年前簽的啊。"],["李主任委員進勇：這個法無明文規定。"],["張委員智倫：所以程序不明確嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們認為這是屬於人民的自由，選委會也沒有辦法禁止他。"],["張委員智倫：所以主委我跟你講，選舉投票是自由民主，這是很明確的，罷免我認為也應該要很明確，這樣才公平、才對等。為什麼我會跟你報告這件事情？因為選舉完以後就開始分裂、就開始衝突，民眾沒辦法休生養息，變成選舉完以後馬上進行罷免，就是因為程序不確定。好，請主委繼續回應，謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：有關於連署的部分，法也是沒有明文規定，但是……"],["張委員智倫：對，所以我的意思是，法永遠都沒有明文規定，所以主委的態度跟主委你要把這些程序弄得很清楚啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們可以從法律規定的辦法來尋求答案，也就是說，法律的規定是，連署人名冊送進來之後，經過我查對，你少了幾份，所以法律規定你有10天的時間可以來補。"],["張委員智倫：那審查期間可不可以連署？"],["李主任委員進勇：10天的期間裡面，你要他補，你又不准他去連署，這個是會有矛盾的。"],["張委員智倫：40天的審查期可不可以連署？"],["李主任委員進勇：40天的審查期，這個法也沒有禁止的規定。"],["張委員智倫：對，所以我要跟主委講，就是因為法沒有規定，讓地方造成分裂跟衝突，就大家每天只要選舉完，就一直在地方連署嘛。"],["李主任委員進勇：關於連署，選罷法雖然沒有明文規定，但是相關的法律，尤其是包括個資保護的法律，還是必須要遵守。"],["張委員智倫：到底40天的審查期可不可以連署？主委可不可以明確回應？"],["李主任委員進勇：40天的審查期裡面，我們管不到啊。"],["張委員智倫：還是法無明文規定？"],["李主任委員進勇：對，我們管不到。"],["張委員智倫：所以主委我要跟你報告的是，投票是什麼時候？60天前才能做選舉活動，這些都規定得非常明確。但因為罷免過去沒有那麼多的審查案件，導致不管是被罷免方，提議罷免的民眾，他們都無所適從，而且被罷免方是不能募款等等這些，我們現在都尊重現在的規定。可是主委，要在這一次大罷免以後，我們應該學習到一個教訓，怎麼樣讓臺灣的民主社會是可以平衡的，不是說選舉完以後就開始連署、就開始罷免，而且也沒有任何明文規定。送件了以後繼續可以連署，造成地方的衝突、人民的衝突，我認為是非常不正確的。所以在這邊我希望政府、賴總統及執政應該要好好拚民生，不要拚鬥爭，所以我希望說，如果人民覺得這次的罷免，而且像主委剛剛的回應來講，很多的程序是不明確的，大罷免變成大惡罷、變成大霸凌，我認為這樣是非常不好的，所以我請主委……"],["李主任委員進勇：報告委員，所謂的沒有明文規定跟不明確，其實並不一定畫上等號。"],["張委員智倫：好，主委你還有解釋嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有明文規定的話，就是百姓你去做，我不處罰你，那也是很清楚的，不能說它不明確。"],["張委員智倫：所以我的意思就是說，這樣子的制度……"],["李主任委員進勇：被允許的行為……"],["張委員智倫：造成地方的分裂，造成人民一直會覺得好像天天在選舉、天天看到一些政治活動，沒辦法休養生息，所以我希望不管是主委還是賴清德政府，應該要體察，剛剛我提到六成的民眾是反對這樣子惡罷的，所以希望主委，不管是門檻的部分，大家都還有討論的空間，可是現在看到這麼多的罷免案，其實造成社會的分裂，而且現在整個臺灣的政治環境，不能嘴巴說要對外一致團結，可是事實上內部在做……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們尊重立法院或者是社會各方面的聲音，我們都尊重。"],["張委員智倫：好，主委，那就拜託你，希望這是臺灣最後一次大罷免，我這邊也要呼籲，如果覺得這個活動不合理的人，應該出來投反對票。"],["李主任委員進勇：更重要的是大家要守法。"],["張委員智倫：大家一定要守法，一定要守法。"],["李主任委員進勇：珍惜我們民主的成果，大家要按照法律的規定來進行。"],["張委員智倫：對，大家要珍惜民主的成果，選完以後就不應該翻桌！好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員。","下一位我們請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":194,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-17","speakers":["牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","賴士葆","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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請解釋好 謝謝委員的關心有關於我們連署格式的這個查對的部分引起社會各界的關心那坊間也有很多的這個說法其實這些說法都是錯誤的訊息好 這說法是錯誤的 但事實上有沒有發生我們 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0.2公分這顯然是不合理的狀況嘛對不對天可垂見完全是錯假訊息所以第一這種沒有嘛所以也不會發生嘛那第二要不要用正本去套糧目前你收到的狀況到底是有還是沒有因為你剛剛的答案"},{"start":292.244,"end":299.012,"text":"答案是說我們還在等回報這個問題我們需要台中來跟我們做詳細的解釋在5月5號那今天已經是幾號了已經過了幾小時了那麻煩如果主委能夠像花蓮這件事情一樣能夠這麼明確的回答我相信對各地的選委會是有更統一的標準"},{"start":310.925,"end":314.246,"text":"為什麼呢 因為我們會很需要知道的是如果在現場因為這樣的形式而把這份連署書在現場就剔除了那它到底算不算行政處分現場能不能有任何的救濟方式還是要達到合意才能夠剔除這就是主委回到您剛剛說的狀況了嘛 對不對"},{"start":333.814,"end":343.446,"text":"你剛剛表示你現在告訴我說你還不知道現場到底有沒有用格式套糧但你知道現在被剔除的都是合意的對不對你剛剛的說法是這樣嗎在交涉的過程當中我們不排除他們用任何的方式一起來做"},{"start":348.573,"end":370.279,"text":"沒有關係我現在告訴你的是可以我現在告訴主委是中選會應該要對地方的選委會有一套統一的標準而這個形式絕對不是要嚴苛挑剔到故意刁難連署書的送件對吧這完全合理嘛對不對我可以很簡單的再重複一遍我們關於這個問題的一個處理的辦法"},{"start":373.12,"end":380.964,"text":"第一點當然我們強調必須要按照規定的格式提出這規定的格式包括標題包括欄位的順序包括長寬等等沒有按照規定格式提出來的那我們就不予受理是這個目的是為什麼這個目的就是要防止偷跑啦為了選務對啦這個是第一個是在時間上面防止偷跑嘛對不對不是中選會要刻意的刁難主委"},{"start":400.495,"end":404.66,"text":"第二點第二點我們也一再強調容許所謂的公差不管婦嬰今天在備詢台上全國都聽到了主委的標準就是這樣全國的標準就是如此容許公差而且而且這個是用肉眼去辨識"},{"start":419.798,"end":422.339,"text":"好 用睿眼去辨識不會用詞 也不會用這樣套糧最後一點 最後一點要特別強調的不要再說了 說了就沒人要相信哪有什麼丫頭在那邊扭 吃飯人家嘴不知道怎麼絕對沒有這個事我是覺得說這樣啦"},{"start":435.605,"end":460.736,"text":"那中選會對刑事的要求如果如此的嚴謹的話那對實質的要求就已經明顯知道有所謂一般俗稱的幽靈連署也就是死亡前就連署的比例是如此的高至今相同的比例是如此的高這種實質的狀況中選會因為依照現行的法律沒有辦法做任何的處置"},{"start":461.696,"end":484.191,"text":"那麼我們就不要用形式駭攻中選會應該要能夠明白的要求各地選委會不能夠有不同的標準這主委同意啦我們除了就是如何辨識偽造有一些規範性的規定之外其實我們在實務的做法上我們是要求各地選委會兩個人一組"},{"start":486.152,"end":489.056,"text":"兩個人一起一個是我們專職的選務人員一個就是縣市政府借調的人員大家共同來認定好 主委那我現在再問你另外一個我本來要問三題但是現在我可能借一點時間問一下我的第二題就好了"},{"start":502.754,"end":505.657,"text":"第二題的部分的話我想知道的是中選會在這個查核連署書的狀況為什麼沒有辦法直接把這個數字還有剛剛查核的各種狀況直接公開在網路上公告給全國人民知道"},{"start":518.331,"end":530.156,"text":"你知道我們現在要看到聯署書實質查核剛剛討論的是刑事查核嘛你說全國要一致了我們都同意了花了幾分鐘的時間那我們現在經由中選會去做實質的審查之後的這個資料為什麼中選會不能夠主動公開立即的在第一時間公告給全國人民知道"},{"start":542.381,"end":544.862,"text":"我們查對審核的結果都是經過委員會的審定我當然知道你們都是嚴謹的審查 我說的是審查結果紀錄要經過確認 所以要過一個月確認之後我們就會上網公開了"},{"start":559.266,"end":563.03,"text":"那所有的報章媒體新聞都知道啊我們都是連委員都是透過媒體才知道我們的數字連我這個被罷免人我們也是要透過媒體才知道問中選會中選會給你的說我們等會議記錄會議記錄上網以後也一共只有"},{"start":579.89,"end":597.002,"text":"合格率就是合格幾件不合格的幾件所以裡面細部的資料都沒有可是我們來看新聞的部分新聞的部分你看看重複提議有偽造情勢與門檻差異提議疫前死亡的都可以公佈成這樣我相信全國人民都在看你不要說這個他資料來源中選會"},{"start":600.504,"end":601.625,"text":"中選會還有另外一種可以知道的方式就是立委所知啦我覺得這個狀況應該是"},{"start":615.641,"end":633.882,"text":"中選會其實應該要很負責任的在第一時間就應該要出來如果你們是要透過會議的話那這是現在國家最大的事情你們要加速會議的時間啊加速公告的時間啊我覺得這樣才合理啊委員因為問政的需要像我們所知"},{"start":636.104,"end":657.455,"text":"這個結果只要經過我們的委員會審查確定的結果那我們是應該要提供給委員那這個時候雖然還沒有上網公開但是已經經過審定了我們會配合提供給委員那至於媒體他從什麼地方得到這些訊息跟中選會真的是沒有關係"},{"start":658.015,"end":678.374,"text":"主委我現在就是本於我的選擇跟中選會垂詢並且建議並且要求就像你的第六你的書面你的口頭報告裡面的第六點你現在正在研議的是公職人員罷免案的電子聯署系統整備嘛那你現在在說我們未來這些案子"},{"start":680.376,"end":683.02,"text":"可不可以用電子系統整備這要很長的時間給你時間但我認為以現在狀況全國正在進行的種種罷免案當中當中選會的實質審查出來後應該要加速如果可以從至少一個月變成是一個禮拜"},{"start":698.54,"end":706.465,"text":"這個大家全國也感謝你啊三天更好啊這本來就是應該要加速讓全國人民知道的狀況而且應該是公開上網這是我的第一個要求方法你們去想這是我的要求甚至我還要求我們應該要讓全國人民都可以有一套系統就像大學聯好放榜榜單一樣嘛榜單出來了我就可以去查詢我簽的聯署單到底那個領銜人有沒有幫我交出去"},{"start":725.137,"end":727.698,"text":"有還是沒有 這對我來講很重要啊有沒有交 我這麼認真寫了連署但我應該有權利可以知道我的連署書有沒有被交出去甚至是反過來講我也應該要有權利可以上網去查詢那個連署的名單裡面有沒有我啊"},{"start":741.866,"end":745.309,"text":"我有沒有被冒名啊這樣不是一清二楚根本不用檢調調查嗎這個系統不難啊大學聯考各種學校招生聯合都可以做到我覺得這個反而是比你在研議電子連署更應該提早做到的啦我相信這個不難"},{"start":761.204,"end":775.989,"text":"費用也不高而且應該即刻就可以做主委你的意見呢那這技術上是沒有困難沒有困難啊我剛剛跟委員報告過我查詢我自己而已啊我有沒有我的聯署書有沒有被交上去我有沒有被冒名就這麼簡單我剛剛跟委員報告過的就是說我們的這個會議紀錄確認的程序是到下一次的委員會我們委員會一個月才開一次那就應該要提早召開"},{"start":786.752,"end":811.067,"text":"怎麼樣是不是可以縮短尤其是這種特殊重關切的事情就是國家大事了可以研究縮短這個我們再來努力看看主委我要求啦我要求我具體要求具名要求我認為在這一段時間這是國家的非常時刻過去從來沒有過的我認為中選會的會議要加速召開不可以一個月只開一次啦要優先處理啦好謝謝謝謝委員指教"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":108,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時15分）謝謝主席。我們請李主委。"],["主席：有請李進勇主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委好。主委，本席現在其實也是被罷免的當事人之一，但今天本席還是會好好認真做好我的工作，而且我不會針對個案性來做發問，我問的是通案性的問題，讓中選會可以確保人民正當的行使選舉罷免權。所以第一題我要問的是，現在網路上一直看到、坊間都有流傳，甚至是新聞也有報出來這樣的狀況，即各地選委會會用尺來查核二階連署書的名冊格式。我看到中選會是在Facebook上面，你們自己已經發過兩次的聲明，表示不會有這樣的事情，那是在4月29號的時候中選會發的。可是我們接下來看到在花蓮也好、在臺中也好，甚至是前天5月5號，確實又再看到這樣的狀況，甚至這次不是用尺了，是用正本去套量連署書。請問到底有沒有這樣的事情？中選會的態度是什麼？請解釋。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員的關心。有關於連署格式查對的部分，引起社會各界的關心，坊間也有很多的說法，其實這些說法都是錯誤的訊息。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，說法是錯誤的，但事實上有沒有發生？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們知道可能會發生這樣子的爭議，中選會事先就已經做好非常完全的準備，希望就是一套標準，各地選委會都按照這個標準一體適用。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，所以是？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們做的努力有哪些呢？包括我們有受理查對的須知，這個是規定……"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委，我的問題滿多的，可能要麻煩您稍微講快一點。"],["李主任委員進勇：有須知、有作業、有辦法……"],["蘇委員巧慧：不然就是主席要給我多一點時間。"],["李主任委員進勇：有作業的手冊等等，匯集包括相關的法律規定以及我們的函釋，讓所有從事查對的同仁很容易地運用，當一有問題發生的時候……"],["蘇委員巧慧：SOP都有啦！我就只單純問你，到底有沒有用尺去量表格或者用正本去套量表格這樣的事情發生？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個完全是誤傳或者是有意的散播錯假訊息，完全沒有這種情況。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以在花蓮、在臺中現場都沒有發生這樣的情況？"],["李主任委員進勇：曾經有送件人跟我們的選務人員，對於規格看法不一，但是最後經過……"],["蘇委員巧慧：可是我們在新聞上看到5月5號臺中選委會有發生這樣的狀況啊！這個新聞是怎麼樣？中選會對地方的選委會狀態有沒有瞭解？對這則新聞的狀態，你們的表示是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們有進行瞭解，實際的狀況還必須要等到他們回報上來。不過，最後我們得到的訊息是臺中的事情經過溝通之後，大家也共同認定，後來不受理的件數是39件。這39件裡面因為規格的問題而不予受理的，只有個位數，是3件或者是4件，我們還在確認之中。像這樣的爭議，我們認為是正常的，爭議的結果大家還能夠達成共識。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委，我們分幾個部分來講：第一，為什麼中選會在連署書的格式上面要做變化的原因是：到底空白幾格？中間有沒有置中？有沒有空白？要不要置中？還是往左偏、對齊首格？在當場你才拿出來的這個格式是確保連署不會提前偷跑，講白話文就是這樣的狀況，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們的確有這樣的顧慮跟設計。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以這是為了行政便利的方式來做這件事情。好，如果一旦發生現場用尺去量，這種人民完全沒有辦法去預測會有的狀況，差0.1、0.2公分，這顯然是不合理的狀況嘛，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：天可垂見，這完全是錯假訊息。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以完全是錯假訊息。第一，這種沒有嘛！所以也不會發生嘛！第二，要不要用正本去套量？目前你收到的狀況到底是有，還是沒有？因為你剛剛的答案是：我們還在等回報。"],["李主任委員進勇：這個問題需要臺中來跟我們做詳細的解釋及說明。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是5月5號，今天已經是幾號了、已經過了幾小時？麻煩如果主委能夠像花蓮這件事情一樣這麼明確地回答，我相信對各地的選委會是有更統一的標準，為什麼呢？因為我們會很需要知道的是，如果在現場因為這樣的形式而把這份連署剔除了，那到底算不算行政處分？現場能不能有任何的救濟方式？還是要達到合意才能夠剔除？這就回到您剛剛說的狀況了，對不對？你剛剛表示，還不知道現場到底有沒有用格式套量，但你知道現在被剔除的都是合意的，對不對？你剛剛的說法是這樣嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：在交涉的過程當中，我們不排除他們用任何的方式，以此來做溝通……"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，沒有關係，我現在告訴你的是……"],["李主任委員進勇：其實那是一種溝通方式。"],["蘇委員巧慧：可以，我現在告訴主委，中選會應該要對地方選委會有一套統一的標準，但這個形式絕對不是要嚴苛、挑剔到故意刁難連署書的送件，對吧？這完全合理，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：我可以很簡單地再重複一遍我們關於這個問題的處理辦法：第一點，當然我們強調必須要按照規定的格式提出，這個規定的格式包括標題、欄位的順序、長寬等等，沒有按照規定格式提出來的，我們就不予受理，目的是為什麼？目的就是要防止偷跑，為了選務的公正。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對啦！這是在時間上防止偷跑，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：不是中選會刻意刁難。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，主委……"],["李主任委員進勇：這是第一點。第二點，我們也一再強調容許所謂的公差，不管複印、不管影印、不管套印……"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，今天在備詢台上，全國都聽到了，主委的標準就是這樣、全國的標準就是如此。"],["李主任委員進勇：容許公差，而且是用肉眼去辨識，絕對不會拿尺去量。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，用肉眼去辨識，不會用尺，也不會用這樣套量。"],["李主任委員進勇：最後一點要特別強調的，不要再說了，說了就沒人要相信，哪有什麼拿尺在那邊量？是要笑死人才會這樣……"],["蘇委員巧慧：好啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：絕對沒有這種事。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我是覺得這樣，主委，中選會對形式的要求如果如此嚴謹的話，而實質上已經明顯知道有所謂幽靈連署，也就是死亡前就連署的比例是如此高，字跡相同的比例是如此高，這種實質的狀況，中選會因為依照現行的法律沒有辦法做任何的處置，那麼我們就不要用形式害公，中選會應該要能夠明白要求各地選委會不能夠有不同的標準，這主委同意啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：我們除了如何辨識偽造，有一些規範性的規定之外，其實在實務的作法上，我們是要求各地選委會兩個人一組，一個是專職的選務人員，一個就是縣市政府借調的人員，大家共同來認定。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，主委，那我現在再問你另外一個，我本來要問三題，但現在我可能借一點時間問一下我的第二題就好了。第二題的部分，我想知道的是，中選會在查核連署書的狀況，為什麼沒有辦法把這個數字，還有剛剛查核的各種狀況直接公開在網路上公告給全國人民知道？你知道我們現在要看到連署書實質查核，剛剛討論的是形式查核，你說全國要一致，我們都同意了，花了幾分鐘的時間，那我們現在經由中選會去做實質的審查之後的這個資料，為什麼中選會不能夠主動公開，立即在第一時間公告給全國人民知道？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們查對審核的結果都是經過委員會的審定。"],["蘇委員巧慧：當然啊！我當然知道你們都是嚴謹的審查，我說的是審查結果。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員會審定之後，紀錄要經過確認，所以要過1個月，確認之後我們就會上網公開了。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所有的報章、媒體、新聞都知道啊，連委員都是透過媒體才知道我們的數字，連我這個被罷免人，我們也是要透過媒體才知道。問中選會，中選會說我們等會議紀錄，會議紀錄上網以後，也一共只有合格率，就是合格幾件、不合格幾件，所以裡面細部的資料都沒有……"],["李主任委員進勇：媒體……"],["蘇委員巧慧：可是我們來看新聞的部分。新聞的部分你看看，重複提議、有偽造情事、與門檻差距、提議前死亡的都公布了，我相信全國人民都在看，你不要說這個……它資料來源是中選會喔！"],["李主任委員進勇：它也可以寫總統府。"],["蘇委員巧慧：中選會，這很清楚的狀況嘛！好啦……"],["李主任委員進勇：它說中選會不一定是中選會。"],["蘇委員巧慧：中選會還有另外一種可以知道的方式，就是立委索資！"],["李主任委員進勇：我正要講這一點。"],["蘇委員巧慧：面對這樣的狀況，中選會應該要很負責任地在第一時間就站出來，如果你們要透過會議的話，這是現在國家最大的事情，所以你們要加速會議的時間、加速公告的時間，我覺得這樣才合理啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：委員因為問政的需要向我們索資，這個結論、結果……"],["蘇委員巧慧：本來就合理。"],["李主任委員進勇：只要經過我們委員會審查確定的結果，那我們是應該要提供給委員。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，當然是這樣。"],["李主任委員進勇：這個時候雖然還沒有上網公開，但是已經經過審定了，我們會配合提供給委員。至於媒體從什麼地方得到這些訊息，跟中選會真的是沒有關係。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委，我現在就是本於我的權責跟中選會垂詢，並且建議、並且要求，就像你的口頭報告裡面的第六點，你現在正在研議公職人員罷免案的電子連署系統整備。你現在說未來這些案子可不可以用電子系統整備？這要很長的時間，我可以給你時間，但我認為以現在的狀況，全國正在進行的種種罷免案當中，當中選會的實質審查出來以後，應該要加速，至少從1個月變成是1個禮拜，這樣大家、全國也感謝你啊，3天更好啊！這本來就是應該要加速讓全國人民知道的狀況，而且應該是公開上網，這是我的第一個要求，方法你們去想，這是我的要求。","甚至我還要求，我們應該要讓全國人民都可以有一套系統，就像大學聯考放榜榜單一樣，榜單出來了我就可以去查詢，我簽的連署單，到底那個領銜人有沒有幫我交出去？有還是沒有，這對我來講很重要啊！我這麼認真寫了連署單，應該有權利可以知道我的連署書有沒有被交出去。甚至是反過來講，我也應該要有權利可以上網去查詢連署名單裡面有沒有我、我有沒有被冒名，這樣不是一清二楚，根本不用檢調調查嗎？這個系統不難啊！大學聯考、各種學校招生、聯考都可以做到，我覺得這個反而比你在研議電子連署更應該提早做到的！我相信這個不難，費用也不高，而且應該即刻就可以做，主委你的意見呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：這技術上是沒有困難，但是……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有困難啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：我剛剛跟委員報告過……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我查詢我自己而已，我的連署書有沒有被交上去、我有沒有被冒名，就這麼簡單。"],["李主任委員進勇：我剛剛跟委員報告過，我們的會議紀錄確認的程序是到下一次的委員會，我們委員會1個月才開一次。"],["蘇委員巧慧：那就應該要提早召開啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：怎麼樣……是不是可以縮短，尤其是這種特殊的民眾所關切的事情……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對啊！這是國家大事了。"],["李主任委員進勇：可不可以研究縮短，這個我們再來努力看看。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委，我要求，我具體要求、具名要求，我認為在這一段時間，這是國家非常時刻，過去從來沒有過的，我認為中選會的會議要加速召開，不可以1個月只開1次，要優先處理啦，謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：好，謝謝蘇巧慧委員。","下一位我們請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":194,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-17","speakers":["牛煦庭","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","黃捷","許宇甄","李柏毅","賴士葆","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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記得你考我那個布袋系 可是我又忘記了喔 沒事沒事沒事 不過我們沒有說要你記得喔 那我想我在3月27文化部的業務報告那有問這個文化傳承的一個布袋系問題喔 那時候考了這個幾個人物問題"},{"start":64.941,"end":90.439,"text":"但是呢我是希望說部長為避免繼續失去這個寶貴的偶系文化布袋系的扎根教育從國小、國中、高中要怎麼來做在文化的保存又要怎麼來做那時候有強調嘛那教育體系對整個布袋系的完整的一個傳承重要性那當時不要說我建議說不要把它當成是短期的一個興趣培養這樣會不夠長久那部長您也回應我非常認同"},{"start":91.4,"end":114.459,"text":"但是3月27到5月7號一個月過去了並沒有看到文化部的一個回覆部長您覺得這樣子是不是好像不夠重視呢當初有答應多久是沒有答應沒有沒有答應那個但是我記得正常我們回應的話至少也不要超過15天吧"},{"start":117.082,"end":143.148,"text":"其實我們對整個布袋系的那個傳承我們這個負責的部門其實有一整套的就是固定每一年的編列預算還有加強這個布袋系我們從頭到尾都沒有減少過包括劇本的創作 人才培育這個我相信 但是我需要資料啊所以我想部長 那兩天可以給我資料嗎因為我們一段時間了我們其實現成了吧 兩天"},{"start":144.847,"end":170.065,"text":"三天一個禮拜一個禮拜其實我們這個東西真的是每一年都在做所以一個禮拜給你詳細的計畫但是當時我有跟您建議就是說你也有認同就是說不只是把現有的這些計畫給我還有更重要就是我們當時有講的不要把它當成短期的興趣在教育體系上如何做一個重視那這個部分上有所突破那這個部分有沒有在做研擬"},{"start":171.328,"end":188.55,"text":"有啊 我們去年最近在討論明年預算的時候我們還特別針對布袋戲我們要如何去推廣 這個有啦好 那就一個禮拜把資料給我 可以嗎好第二個問題 蔣部長中央社作為國家通訊社 你對它的期許是什麼"},{"start":190.032,"end":216.035,"text":"中央社非常重要因為它的歷史悠久所以我有兩個非常重要的任務一個就是它本身對過去所拍攝到的東西的保存因為它其他單位大概沒有它這麼多第二它有另外一個任務就是對國外的我們的駐點其實我記得文化部有一支播預算給中央社試著到每一個地方駐點包括實習生等等"},{"start":216.616,"end":236.534,"text":"沒有錯 中央社是國家通信社我相信它不是商業的電視台那外媒對台灣的新聞需求是越來越高的一個情況之下但是最近呢 上報一連四篇有關中央社的報導那不曉得部長有沒有看過我大概知道 但是我沒有仔細看因為基本上我們文化部針對我們周邊這些"},{"start":239.056,"end":257.475,"text":"譬如中央社啊什麼公關集團等等我們是維持一個尊重他的他們怎麼樣去經營這個團隊而且這個團隊每個團隊都是歷史悠久那文化部的立場就是尊重部長我們探討是希望進進"},{"start":258.756,"end":276.798,"text":"我們不會說希望藉由這樣子的一個探討變成是批判我們更希望中央社越來越好那中央社員工從上班的8小時改為8加1部長請問為什麼會引起這麼大的反彈您個人有研究嗎這點我必須了解整個細節因為我們當然聽到都是一個"},{"start":277.899,"end":299.21,"text":"聽到的都是一個簡單的8加1我並不了解這個真的細節是什麼因為他的媒體新聞報導他是說那這個整個中央社員工的工時從8個小時變成8加1的一個背景主因是絕大多數的一個員工一直都依照8小時工時上下班 中間如需用餐休息"},{"start":300.01,"end":315.512,"text":"則是請員工自行安排時間找空檔那如果按照這樣子的一個新聞所述部長您覺得中央社實際上班8小時到底有沒有履行勞基法工時繼續工作4個小時至少應有30分鐘的休息時間的一個規定呢"},{"start":317.121,"end":331.227,"text":"其實上報這個事件那個中央社已經對外有聲明您介不介意請中央社不建議我們探討嘛介不介意換我不建議大家都是希望對有所回應讓能夠解釋一下"},{"start":331.854,"end":335.759,"text":"好 謝謝委員我覺得現在來回答這個用這個題目我有點委屈但是我來面對沒事沒事我覺得上報的報導我們就是探討所以我剛剛說沒有要批判我說上報的報導我覺得非常不實在"},{"start":346.954,"end":351.476,"text":"他前面擬了一些題目呢那我們做了說明他也不見得採信我覺得他有立場的講進來那我願意我在社內也做了跟同仁在溝通說明因為有些東西我見了報導才知道那麼我們內部就在做協調跟說明我先講一下這8加18加1的工作制度是央社配合政府的在我們在103年就已經納入社規而且經過勞資協議有升級勞資協議"},{"start":373.627,"end":377.63,"text":"勞資協議通過所以這件事在政府的立法有字號的那麼到了這個我進了社裡後我就發現這個社裡怎麼有人上班是8加1那我們的記者是8加1或8加2在外場實際工作時間計算但是有少部分輪值的同仁是全天就一來不管你中間有沒有休息吃飯喝咖啡等等就是8個小時就可以走那就變成兩個制度所以我們那時候探討了結果那在過程協議"},{"start":404.108,"end":417.2,"text":"說要不要統一可是後來討論到說有些輪班制度的同仁尤其是編輯同仁其實這部分同仁不到社內的三分之一我要講我們三分之二的同仁都是8加1的公式沒關係我只要有確認我跟個別勞工協商"},{"start":420.082,"end":442.973,"text":"對有當初8加1是勞工協商而且納入了社規所以我們後來也不勉強同仁也是給你這個機會來做解釋嘛好不好我們都是可以溝通可以解釋的好不好但是藉由這個平台讓我們來了解我們也希望說任何一個員工不要有這個勞動權益的受損好不好謝謝你的一個解釋謝謝那再來我想請問一下部長"},{"start":444.482,"end":471.359,"text":"我想這幾年演唱會經濟大家都非常關心那在台灣可以說是百花齊放那帶動文化的一個產業發展也深受年輕世代的一個喜愛這個議題我們在委員會其實很多次的都在討論像是周杰倫演唱會那一次我們說即將發生搶票的時機點我想印象你也很深刻但是相關政策我們看到黃牛票的問題並沒有因為修法而因此有所改善"},{"start":472.319,"end":482.981,"text":"那反而逐漸成為文化部必須面對的一個尖銳挑戰我肯定文化部對於黃牛亂象的一個積極態度但是2023年5月修正的文創"},{"start":484.417,"end":502.842,"text":"文創法明確禁止義文票券加價販售同時也設置檢舉專區展現整個要打擊黃牛的一個決心但是修法之後呢法條是否真正的落實效果是否有如預期這是我們目前最大的一個考驗那我覺得"},{"start":503.522,"end":520.98,"text":"我想引用台中市實際狀況來作為一個案例說明因為文創法最後修法目前警察如果查獲相關的黃牛行為會將案件移送至縣市政府裁罰但是呢我們看到上次我們在內政委會審查社會法的時候警政署有說目前至少"},{"start":522.041,"end":540.618,"text":"至今喔 今年開始就沒有用社會法開罰了好 那5月1號的時候 台中市政府新聞局就對媒體說啊文化部在修法之後 台中市政府新聞局已經收受了113件的一個檢舉案件包含以不正方式取得票券4件 加價轉售109件"},{"start":544.341,"end":564.798,"text":"以不正方式取得票券有三件資料不齊一件是資料完整經警察局協助調查之後已經移送了地檢署但是加價轉售的案件多達63件檢舉資料是不全所以已經結案了資料完備可進行的後續調查只有46件"},{"start":566.738,"end":582.618,"text":"針對可續行調查的46案其中29件已經處理完畢其餘17件辦理行政調查好 這些數據我是要反映兩點第一 地方政府確實有投入行政資源執行"},{"start":583.539,"end":607.269,"text":"法規但是呢大量的案件無法進入實質的調查主因是資料不完備還有收證困難我沒有要你記剛剛的一個數據只是要大概去引述這樣子的一個資料舉證困難部長現在各地方文化局第一線接受檢舉執行行政調查有些縣市政府的人力只有兩三人處理數十案"},{"start":608.409,"end":637.017,"text":"像這樣子的案件不只要像原始的購票方式去查證還要找警方協助調院票券轉售記錄還要設平台的一個資料調查電信記錄我們都知道現在已經高度數位化了已經常透過匿名的社團網路拍賣私人LINE去轉傳相關的信用卡預購的一個權利所以這樣子的一個方式變成檢舉成功率偏低文化部有沒有辦法提供統一的行政查處流程"},{"start":637.697,"end":664.947,"text":"支援地方來做一個執法有沒有規劃其實我們文化部是有教有做教育訓練然後我們也會了解各地方他們所遇到的問題其實我們一直在一直在做這些事情我剛剛講出這些我希望你最後能夠關心統一的一個行政查組我要真的要提醒文化部黃牛亂象不只還在民眾也感受不到修法的一個改善"},{"start":665.367,"end":690.433,"text":"那地方有壓力但無論是人力或其他相關資源完全不足畢竟他們也是堅持在做那既然中央訂了規則就應該給予地方配套還要幫忙檢討這套制度到底設計的哪個地方有卡關我們會繼續關注這一項政策但是希望文化部不要只是開了門而是讓政府沒辦法實際有去執行讓民眾感受不到我們有改善這個我們一起來努力部長可以嗎"},{"start":692.008,"end":698.539,"text":"可以沒問題好我剛剛提的希望你能夠感受到好不好一起來努力好謝謝羅廷偉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":497,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時10分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：好，有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：羅委員您好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，我先跟你請教一下，委員會答詢的回復，大概多久會回復？平均的時段。"],["李部長遠：要看什麼案子吧！"],["羅委員廷瑋：您覺得2個月會不會有點久？"],["李部長遠：還是要看什麼案子。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我們來討論看看，您還記得上一次在委員會的時候，我有給你考各個布袋戲相關的角色人物，您還記得嗎？"],["李部長遠：記得啊！記得你有考我那個布袋戲，可是我又忘記了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒事、沒事，我們沒有說要你記得。我在3月27日文化部的業務報告，有問到文化傳承的布袋戲問題，那時候考了幾個人物問題，我是希望為避免繼續失去寶貴的偶戲文化，布袋戲的扎根教育從國小、國中、高中要怎麼來做？在文化的保存又要怎麼來做？那時候有強調嘛！教育體系對整個布袋戲完整的一個傳承的重要性，當時我建議是不要把它當成是短期的興趣培養，這樣會不夠長久，部長您也有回應，我非常認同，但是從3月27日到5月7日一個月過去了，並沒有看到文化部的回復，部長覺得這樣是不是好像不夠重視呢？"],["李部長遠：當初有答應多久？"],["羅委員廷瑋：是沒有答應。"],["李部長遠：沒有答應時間。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是我記得正常有要回復的話，至少不要超過15天吧！"],["李部長遠：其實我們對整個布袋戲的傳承，我們負責的部門固定每一年都有在編列預算，還有加強推廣布袋戲，我們從頭到尾都沒有減少過，包括劇本的創作、人才培育……"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個我相信，但我需要資料啊！部長，兩天可以給我資料嗎？因為等了一段時間了。"],["李部長遠：我問問看……其實這個東西我們真的每一年都有在做，所以一個禮拜給您詳細的計畫。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當時我有跟您建議，你也有認同不只是把現有的這些計畫給我，還有更重要的是我們當時有講的，不要把它當短期的興趣，在教育體系上如何做一個重視，讓這個部分能有所突破，這個部分有沒有在做研擬？"],["李部長遠：有啊！最近我們在討論明年預算的時候，還特別針對布袋戲要如何作推廣，這個有啦！"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，就一個禮拜把資料給我，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：第二個問題，請教部長中央社作為國家通訊社，你對它的期許是什麼？"],["李部長遠：中央社非常重要，因為它的歷史悠久，所以有兩個非常重要的任務，第一個，它本身對過去所拍攝到東西的保存，因為其他單位大概沒有它這麼多；第二個，另外一個任務，就是我們國外的駐點採訪，我記得文化部有一直撥預算給中央社，試著到每一個地方駐點，包括實習生等等……"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒有錯，中央社是國家的通訊社，我相信它不是商業的電視臺，外媒對臺灣的新聞需求是越來越高的情況之下，但是最近「上報」一連4篇有關中央社的報導，不曉得部長有沒有看過？"],["李部長遠：我大概知道，但是沒有仔細看，基本上，我們文化部針對我們周邊這些，譬如中央社、公廣集團等等，我們是維持尊重他們怎麼樣去經營團隊，而且每個團隊都是歷史悠久，文化部的立場就是尊重。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，我們探討是希望精進，不會是希望藉由這樣的探討變成是批判，我們更希望中央社越來越好；中央社員工從上班的8小時改為8加1，部長請問為什麼會引起這麼大的反彈，您個人有研究嗎？"],["李部長遠：這點我必須了解整個細節，因為我們都是聽到簡單的8加1，我並不了解這裡面的細節是什麼。"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為媒體新聞報導是，整個中央社員工的工時從8個小時變成8加1的背景，主因是絕大多數的員工一直都依照8小時工時上下班，中間如需用餐休息，則是請員工自行安排時間找空檔，如果按照這樣的新聞所述，部長覺得中央社實際上班8小時的工時，到底有沒有符合勞基法裡「勞工繼續工作四小時，至少應有三十分鐘之休息。」的規定呢？"],["李部長遠：中央社針對上報這個事件已經有對外聲明，您介不介意請中央社社長說明？"],["羅委員廷瑋：我不介意，我們來探討嘛！大家都是希望對這事件有所回應，也讓中央社能夠解釋一下。"],["胡社長婉玲：謝謝委員，現在來這裡回答這個問題，我覺得有點委屈，但是我會來面對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒事、沒事。社長，我們是來探討的，我剛說沒有要批判。"],["胡社長婉玲：有關「上報」的報導，我覺得非常不實在，它前面擬的一些題目，我們也做了說明，它也不見的採信，我覺得它有加入它的立場報導出來，我在社內也有跟同仁在作溝通，因為有些東西是我見了報導才知道，我們內部有在作協調跟說明，我先說明一下這8加1的工作制度，是央社配合政府，我們在103年就已經納入社規，而且經過勞資協議……"],["羅委員廷瑋：有涉及勞資協議。"],["胡社長婉玲：是有通過勞資協議，所以這是在政府的立法有案有字號的，到我進了中央社以後，我才發現這個社裡面怎麼有人上班是8加1，我們的記者是8加1或8加2，在外場的是依實際工作時間計算，但是有少部分輪值的同仁是全天，一來上班不管中間有沒有休息、吃飯、喝咖啡等等，就是上足8個小時後就可以走……"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。"],["胡社長婉玲：這就變成兩個制度，所以我們那時候探討的結果，在探討過程中有協議要不要統一，可是後來討論到有些輪班制度的同仁，尤其是編輯同仁，其實這部分同仁不到社內的三分之一，我要講我們三分之二同仁都是8加1的工時，所以後來……"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒關係，我只要有確認有跟個別勞工協商嗎？"],["胡社長婉玲：有，當初8加1是經過勞工協商，而且是納入了社規，所以我們後來也不勉強同仁，因為同仁……"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，也是給你這個機會來做解釋嘛，好不好？"],["胡社長婉玲：好，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們都是可以溝通、可以解釋的，好不好？藉由這個平臺讓我們來了解，我們也希望任何一個員工不要有勞動權益的受損，好不好？謝謝你的一個解釋。"],["胡社長婉玲：謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：再來，請教一下部長，這幾年演唱會經濟，大家都非常關心，在臺灣可以說是百花齊放，帶動文化的產業發展也深受年輕世代的喜愛，這個議題我們在委員會已經有很多次的討論，像是周杰倫演唱會那一次，我們說即將發生搶票的時機點，我想印象你也很深刻，但是相關政策，我們看到黃牛票的問題，並沒有因為修法而因此有所改善，反而逐漸成為文化部必須面對的一個尖銳挑戰，我肯定文化部對於黃牛亂象的積極態度。","在2023年5月修正的文創法，明確禁止藝文票券加價販售，同時也設置了檢舉專區，展現整個要打擊黃牛的決心，但是修法之後，法條是否真正的落實？效果是否有如預期？這是我們目前最大的一個考驗，我想引用臺中市實際狀況來作為案例說明，因為文創法最後修法後，目前警察如果查獲相關的黃牛行為，會將案件移送至縣市政府裁罰，但是上次我們在內政委員會審查社維法的時候，警政署有說，自今年開始就沒有在用社維法開罰；在5月1日的時候，臺中市政府新聞局就對媒體說，文化部在修法之後，臺中市政府新聞局已經收受了113件的檢舉案件，包含以不正方式取得票券4件及加價轉售109件，其中以不正方式取得票券有3件資料不齊、1件是資料完整，經警察局協助調查之後，已經移送地檢署，但是加價轉售的案件多達63件檢舉資料不全，所以已經結案了。資料完備可進行後續調查的只有46件，針對可續行調查的46案，其中29件已經處理完畢，其餘17件辦理行政調查。我提這些數據是要反映兩點，第一、地方政府確實有投入行政資源執行法規，但是大量案件無法進入實質調查，主因是資料不完備還有蒐證困難。我沒有要你記剛剛的數據，只是要引述資料舉證困難。部長，現在各地方文化局在第一線接受檢舉、執行行政調查，有些縣市政府的人力只有兩、三人，卻得處理數十案，像這樣的案件不只要向原始購票的單位查證，還要找警方協助調閱票券轉售紀錄，還要取得平臺的資料調查、電信紀錄。我們都知道現在已經高度數位化，常透過匿名社團、網路拍賣、私人的LINE去轉傳相關信用卡預購的權利，這樣的方式變成檢舉成功率偏低，文化部有沒有辦法提供統一的行政查處流程，支援地方來執法？有沒有規劃？"],["李部長遠：其實文化部有做教育訓練，也會了解各地方所遇到的問題，我們一直在做這些事情，但是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我剛剛講出這些，我希望你最後能夠關心。"],["李部長遠：是，沒有問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有關統一的行政查處，我真的要提醒文化部，黃牛亂象不只還在，民眾也感受不到修法的改善，地方有壓力，但無論是人力或其他相關資源完全不足，畢竟他們也是兼著在做。既然中央訂了規則就應該給予地方配套，還要幫忙檢討到底這套制度哪個地方的設計卡關。我們會繼續關注這一項政策，但希望文化部不要只是開了門，而讓政府沒辦法實際執行，讓民眾感受不到我們有改善。這個我們一起來努力，部長，可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：可以，沒問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我剛剛提的希望你能夠感受到，好不好？"],["李部長遠：好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：一起來努力！"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員。部長，請回。","接下來請萬美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-10","speakers":["林宜瑾","郭昱晴","劉書彬","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","柯志恩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳秀寳","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","葉元之","范雲","蘇巧慧","黃捷","陳培瑜","邱志偉"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算解凍案49案","agenda_id":"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心因為台灣的出口導向七成而且呢我們的毛利率都非常的低所以在這個升值的情況下面大家都很擔心受到這個影響"},{"start":43.966,"end":61.213,"text":"那我想要先問一下委員長我們這幾天有沒有收到僑胞對於台幣升值的一些回饋反應或是擔憂多少都有一些多少都有一些嘛那我們在這個部分的我們有什麼樣的提供他們的解決方式"},{"start":63.274,"end":88.384,"text":"昨天看起來這個台幣的升值狀況好像趨於穩定所以希望它只是一個一時的心理預期的現象那後續的這個幣匯率上面可以持續的保持一個穩定性因為不管它是升值或貶值一定會有某個業別受到嚴重的影響如果它是升值的時候就會對出口導向不利如果是貶值的時候又會對進口導向不利"},{"start":90.364,"end":108.535,"text":"但是我們台幣升值的這個幅度那算是史上來說非常大所以影響也特別的大那您剛才有提到說有進行這些座談那目前業者反映的訴求跟困難是什麼那我們的問卷的結果又是什麼呢"},{"start":109.415,"end":127.514,"text":"委員這個是這個月五月要開始進行的所以還沒有結果出來因為我們五月是歐洲商會的總會這個就跟那個王定宇委員講的一樣就是大家會擔心太慢因為呢川普他的這個政策呢是這個初一十五跟月亮一樣都不一樣"},{"start":128.915,"end":150.665,"text":"委員有點不一樣的地方是因為他們在各個不同國家那各個國家談判速度是不一樣的那我等一下會問各個國家的部分那現在呢要提供這個930億的相關紓困政策那我想要問一下僑委會這邊呢會分到多少的我們在這個紓困政策裡面基本上是沒有列入的沒有列入的因為他這個不是對於國內的廠商的補助"},{"start":152.546,"end":161.054,"text":"OK所以呢對於國外的僑胞的部分那我們就沒有在這個930因為那個會視為是外資的一個路徑那呢再來就是呢我們在這個報告裡面有提到要投資美國隊應該是我看是哪一位的這個報告經濟部嗎還是國發會那呢投資美國隊是要投資多少呢"},{"start":176.892,"end":192.209,"text":"你們的預期目前這個部分事實上我們的談判的單位現在正在磋商之中磋商之中所以還不知道要投資多少錢不是 這容委員我們是不是給他們一點空間"},{"start":193.49,"end":208.764,"text":"OK 好那我們現在匯率升值之後對美投資還能賺到錢嗎是不是我們在整個我們的出口導向的這些產業裡面當匯率升值之後我們的對美投資能夠獲利的這個幅度會變得更小呢"},{"start":209.846,"end":235.74,"text":"匯率跟投資我們除了看短期的狀況之外你投資之後的收入嘛收益的部分他都是要看長期的趨勢跟客戶端的需求我問的問題是說匯率升值之後我們對美投資之後呢那我們賺取的這些收益是否會受到影響那影響的層面如何我們評估的狀況又是如何"},{"start":236.803,"end":263.769,"text":"那當然這個角色說未來有一些具體的投資落地的時候這一些我們就要看基本上這個投資的契約是如何去進行相關的分潤不過我們在進行任何一個投資之前第一個一定要確保台灣的這個利益還有確保我們台灣是真正需要而這個投資對於競爭力是有幫忙那我們現在評估的如何呢"},{"start":264.537,"end":274.941,"text":"我們現在我剛剛有說明了可能這個部分是不是要評估到什麼時候啊因為930億裡面當你們要提出來930億裡面完全是協助不管是照顧弱勢穩定民生還有包括支持產業的部分也都沒有針對這個投資美國對呀然後相關的這個對美投資對台灣台灣廠商對美投資的部分"},{"start":294.287,"end":323.352,"text":"跟委員報告現在行政院送到立法院這邊來的完全是針對我們國內的資用的不足那再來我們有看到剛才有談到是我們未來要調升海外的生產基地那所以呢我們呢就是希望剛才那個我們徐委員長有講到就是說呢可能要移到這個菲律賓那因為菲律賓呢被收的這個關稅比較少但是呢我想要請教一下就是呢為什麼菲律賓被收的關稅比較少呢"},{"start":326.83,"end":336.317,"text":"這個問題不是我們能夠回答因為當然是喔 當然是喔這個川普他們是有一個公式去計算出來的這個對等關稅對等關稅當然是每一個國家跟美國之間的這些談判的關係啦那步步他一開始是有公式的時候還延長90天基本上他是以貿易逆差"},{"start":347.165,"end":350.566,"text":"貿易逆差因為菲律賓與美國的貿易逆差順差並沒有我們對他是順差對我們是逆差在這樣的狀況下因為菲律賓跟美國的貿易投資額都沒有那麼順差逆差那麼落差大"},{"start":364.011,"end":383.244,"text":"我要講的事情是我們跟美國的貿易呢是順差但是呢菲律賓跟美國的貿易是逆差所以說呢他的這個關稅被收的比較少但我要強調的事情是如果我們的台商呢我們移到了這個菲律賓然後呢來做很多的這個產業那包含是製造業的話"},{"start":384.065,"end":387.086,"text":"提高了菲律賓他的相關的這個跟美國之間的這個順差從逆差轉成順差的時候那他的關稅是不是也可能被提升那在這個部分呢我想我們的政府都要預先的然後去做準備委員因為這個每一年每一年的這個貿易額度是會浮動的"},{"start":407.233,"end":424.223,"text":"當然我講的是一個具體的概念就是說川普他在當時他列出了這個公式表的時候就是以國家的順差逆差他來作為一個公式那因為菲律賓跟美國之間的這個貿易他們也是順差所以才會是17%如果是逆差的話就是18%不是17%"},{"start":430.166,"end":444.175,"text":"對那因為呢這個柬埔寨它相關的這個關稅呢是比較少受是因為他們的跟美國之間的這個賺的這個我的了解好像有一個島只有企鵝跟那個海豹好像也是要付稅"},{"start":445.93,"end":466.79,"text":"好像也有十几%十%那但是都是没有十%是本来的基本关税嘛好那我要讲的事情是说呢刚才大家讲的这个海外信保基金的这个投资状况那么呢我们看到信保基金呢有具体的措施协助台商呢侨台商能够降低经营成本"},{"start":467.19,"end":482.86,"text":"不只是依賴政府的補助那你們提到的這個性保基金裡面那很多年都被指出說回銷的回收的這個成效很差那呢這個是立法院中預算中心提到的那去年七月底"},{"start":483.22,"end":506.6,"text":"海外信保基金累积带位清偿是386件那含本金利息跟诉讼费用在里面呢原始的带位清偿金额是5003万美元全数回收者是31件回收是232万美元比例非常的低也就是呢有355件是没有全部收回的"},{"start":507,"end":527.467,"text":"那代位清場的金額有到高達4700萬的這個美元那我們只回收呢這個相對少很多啦我們在圖上都有寫我就不一一贅述了那我們目前有什麼樣的方案能夠增加收回的經濟措施嗎委員跟委員說明早期因為那個"},{"start":530.108,"end":544.656,"text":"這個待位清償的我們是永久待位清償大概是全國內的唯一一個基金這樣做的因為基本上大部分的金融機構都只會20年就是一個底線他就會把它打成"},{"start":545.276,"end":548.898,"text":"那我們信保基金是永遠追償那在這個過程當中早期因為有一個制度其實他那個賬都不多幾萬塊幾萬塊而已主要是那時候貸給僑生那僑生因為受到一些詐騙集團的人或者是那個有點是仲介的欺騙所以他們來貸了以後八萬十萬然後就沒有還就走了所以早期很多案件是因為這樣真正是企業廠商的貸款而這個倒債的"},{"start":575.196,"end":599.886,"text":"比例并不高可是这个金额蛮高的耶有这么多人来借是不是啊我请董事长跟您说明一下这个金额是非常高而且立法院的预算中心也认为这个事情是必须要检讨的跟委员报告我们海外信保基金的贷偿率是1.42%也就是说我们保证100块的话那贷偿的比例是1.42块"},{"start":602.17,"end":609.468,"text":"所以我們的比率是相對還是好的我們尚未收回代償金額的比率有幾成"},{"start":611.384,"end":635.073,"text":"對 這個部分是因為我們在海外因為各國的法律都不一樣我就問一個問題很清楚就是我們尚未回收貸償金額的比率我們回收的比率差不多將近18%所以就是差不多82%是沒有辦法回收不過我跟委員報告就是說我們這個部分就像剛剛委員長我們一直盡力都在做我們除了這個債權的銀行他們要負責來處理這個事情之外"},{"start":640.655,"end":650.421,"text":"你剛剛講的這個上面跟我們數字寫的這不太一樣啊你剛剛說收回收多少回收是17.69%那你看一下這張圖好不好"},{"start":654.588,"end":672.166,"text":"妳看這個所以是沒有回收的話是差不多82%那妳剛剛跟我說十幾%妳下面寫的是80%那個是指回收的我剛剛問妳的就是回收的部分我先說這個部分再說如果我沒有追問的話妳就沒有告訴我"},{"start":673.107,"end":691.919,"text":"所以這個80%八成的部分我們沒有回收代償金額的比率超過八成這個是需要檢討的所以那個徐嘉欣委員長因為我時間不夠了所以我們在海外性保基金的這個回收情況是非常有必要來檢討的委員這個在我接"},{"start":692.859,"end":703.454,"text":"委員長之前就已經長這樣然後這幾年都沒有增加我們已經把它做的控制的很好就是沒有再有呆帳在我的任內發生了但是應該要追討的部分呢我們還是要盡力嘛那不然的話但是終身有效"},{"start":708.24,"end":725.993,"text":"一旦他的戶頭有錢或者他的資產有錢我們馬上就會去把他追趕對呀不然這麼高的一個這麼高的一個81.63左右的這個數字是讓大家會覺得這非常荒謬所以呢那就麻煩這個我們委員長繼續做努力好嗎會我們會持續努力謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":440,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時4分）謝謝主席。我想請僑委會委員長、經濟部常務次長跟國發會副主委，都可以先上台。"],["徐委員長佳青：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝。我們大家都很關心貿易戰以及臺僑的經營困境，現在臺幣又過度的升值，對於很多廠商們是感覺到非常地擔心，因為臺灣的出口導向七成，而且我們的毛利率都非常的低，所以在升值的情況下大家都很擔心受到影響。我想先問一下委員長，我們這幾天有沒有收到僑胞對於臺幣升值的一些回饋、反映或是擔憂？"],["徐委員長佳青：多少都有一些。"],["徐委員巧芯：多少都有一些嘛！在這個部分我們有提供他們什麼樣的解決方式？"],["徐委員長佳青：昨天看起來臺幣升值的狀況好像趨於穩定，所以希望這只是一時心理預期的現象，後續匯率上面可以持續地保持穩定性，因為不管是升值或貶值一定會有某個業別受到嚴重的影響，如果是升值的時候就會對出口導向不利；如果是貶值的時候，又會對進口導向不利。"],["徐委員巧芯：當然，但是這次臺幣升值的幅度算是史上非常大，所以影響也特別的大，您剛剛提到有進行這些座談，目前業者反映的訴求跟困難是什麼？我們的問卷結果又是什麼呢？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，這是5月要開始進行的，所以還沒有結果出來，因為5月是歐洲商會的總會。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個就跟王定宇委員講的一樣，大家會擔心太慢，因為川普政策是初一、十五都不一樣，跟月亮一樣。"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，有點不一樣的地方是因為他們在各個不同國家，各個國家談判速度是不一樣。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我等一下會問各個國家的部分。現在要提供930億的相關紓困政策，我想要問僑委會會分到多少的經費？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們在這個紓困政策裡面，基本上是沒有列入的，因為不是對於國內廠商的補助。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有列入，所以對於國外僑胞的部分就沒有列在這930億經費內。"],["徐委員長佳青：因為邏輯上會視為外資。"],["徐委員巧芯：再來，在這個報告裡面有提到要投資美國隊，是經濟部還是國發會的報告？你們預期投資美國隊是要投資多少呢？"],["賴次長建信：這個部分，事實上我們的談判單位現在正在磋商之中……"],["徐委員巧芯：磋商之中，所以還不知道要投資多少錢？"],["賴次長建信：不是，委員，是不是再給他們一點空間。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，好。現在我們匯率升值之後，對美投資還能賺到錢嗎？在整個出口導向的這些產業裡面，是不是當匯率升值之後對美投資能夠獲利的幅度會變得更小呢？"],["賴次長建信：匯率跟投資，我們除了看短期的狀況之外……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們就說收入──投資之後收益的部分。"],["賴次長建信：都是要看長期的趨勢跟客戶端的需求。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是，我問的問題是匯率升值之後，我們對美投資後賺取的這些收益，是否會受到影響？影響的層面如何？我們評估的狀況又是如何？"],["賴次長建信：假設未來有一些具體投資落地的時候，基本上就要看這個投資契約是如何去進行相關的分潤，不過我們在進行任何一個投資之前，第一個一定要確保臺灣的利益，還有確保臺灣是真正需要的，而這個投資對於競爭力是有幫忙的。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們現在評估得如何呢？"],["賴次長建信：我剛剛有說明，可能這個部分是不是……"],["徐委員巧芯：要評估到什麼時候？"],["賴次長建信：我們已經有評估。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為是930億元裡面，當你們要提出來……"],["賴次長建信：930億元裡面完全是協助，不管是照顧弱勢、穩定民生，還有包括支持國內產業的部分。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以也都沒有針對投資美國隊及相關臺灣廠商對美投資的部分。"],["賴次長建信：跟委員報告，現在行政院送到立法院來的，完全是針對國內支用的部分。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，再來剛剛有談到我們未來要調升海外的生產基地，所以是希望徐委員長有講到可能要移到菲律賓，因為菲律賓被收的關稅比較少，但是我想要請教為什麼菲律賓被收的關稅比較少呢？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，這個問題不是我們能夠回答。"],["徐委員巧芯：當然是！川普他們是有一個公式去計算出來的。"],["徐委員長佳青：對等關稅當然是每一個國家跟美國之間談判的關係。"],["徐委員巧芯：不！它一開始是有公式的，是後來延長90天之後才慢慢……"],["徐委員長佳青：基本上它是以貿易逆差。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒錯，貿易逆差。"],["徐委員長佳青：因為菲律賓與美國的貿易順差，我們對他是順差，他對我們是逆差，在這樣的狀況下因為菲律賓跟美國的貿易投資額，順差、逆差，落差沒有那麼大……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我要講的事情是我們跟美國的貿易是順差，但是菲律賓跟美國的貿易是逆差，所以他的關稅被收得比較少。但我要強調的事情是，如果我們的臺商移到了菲律賓做很多的產業包含製造業的話，提高菲律賓跟美國之間的順差，從逆差轉成順差的時候，他的關稅是不是也可能被提升？在這個部分我想我們的政府都要預先的去準備，這個主要是今天經濟部的部分。"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，因為每一年、每一年的貿易額度是會浮動的。"],["徐委員巧芯：當然啊，但是我講的是一個具體的概念。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：川普他在當時列出了這個公式表的時候，就是以國家的順差、逆差作為一個公式，因為菲律賓跟美國之間的貿易，是屬於……"],["徐委員長佳青：他們也是順差，所以才會是17%，如果是逆差的話就……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，是18%，不是17%。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，柬埔寨相關的關稅是比較少數，是因為他們跟美國之間賺的這個錢……"],["徐委員長佳青：我的了解好像有一個島只有企鵝跟那個海豹，好像也是要付稅十幾%、10%。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，10%是本來的基本關稅。我要講的事情是，剛才大家講的海外信保基金的投資狀況，我們看到信保基金有具體的措施協助僑臺商能夠降低經營成本，不只是依賴政府的補助，你們提到的信保基金裡面，很多年都被指出回收的成效很差，這個是立法院預算中心提到的。去年7月底，海外信保基金累積代位清償是386件，含本金利息跟訴訟費用在內原始的代位清償金額是5,003萬美元，全數回收是31件，回收是232萬美元，比例非常的低，也就是有355件是沒有全部收回的。代位清償的金額高達4,700萬美元，我們回收相對少很多，這個在圖上都有寫，我就不一一贅述，我們目前有什麼樣的方案、能夠增加收回的精進措施？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員說明，我們是永久代位清償，大概是國內唯一這樣做的一個基金，基本上大部分的金融機構都只有20年、是一個底線，就會把它打成呆帳或壞帳，我們信保基金是永遠追償。在這個過程當中早期因為有一個制度，其實帳都不多，幾萬塊、幾萬塊而已，主要是那時候貸給僑生，僑生因為受到一些詐騙集團或者有點是仲介的欺騙，所以他們來貸了以後，8萬、10萬沒有還就走了。所以早期很多案件是因為這樣，真正是企業廠商的貸款而倒債的比例並不高，所以這邊……"],["徐委員巧芯：可是這個金額蠻高的耶，有這麼多人來借是不是？"],["徐委員長佳青：我請董事長跟您說明一下。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個金額是非常高，而且立法院的預算中心也認為這個事情是必須要檢討的。"],["林董事長寶惜：跟委員報告，我們海外信保基金的代償率是1.42%，也就是說我們保證100塊代償的比例是1.42塊，所以我們的比率還是相對好的。"],["徐委員巧芯：我問一下，我們尚未收回代償淨額的比率有幾成？"],["林董事長寶惜：這個部分是因為我們在海外，因為各國的法律都不一樣。"],["徐委員巧芯：我就問一個問題很清楚嘛，我們尚未回收代償淨額的比率有幾成？"],["林董事長寶惜：我們回收的比率差不多將近18%，所以差不多82%是沒有辦法回收。不過跟委員報告，這個部分像剛剛委員講的，我們一直盡力都在做，除了債權的銀行要負責來處理這個事情之外……"],["徐委員巧芯：你剛剛講的跟我們數字寫的不太一樣啊。你剛剛說收回收多少？"],["林董事長寶惜：回收是17.69%。"],["徐委員巧芯：你看一下這張圖好不好？你看這個尚未……"],["林董事長寶惜：所以是沒有回收的話是差不多82%。"],["徐委員巧芯：對嘛，你剛剛跟我說百分之十幾，上面寫是80%。"],["林董事長寶惜：那個是指回收的。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，回收，我剛剛問你的就是回收的部分囉。"],["林董事長寶惜：對，我先說這個部分再說……"],["徐委員巧芯：對嘛，如果我沒有追問的話你就沒有告訴我啊。所以這八成的部分，我們沒有回收代償淨額的比率超過八成是需要檢討的。","徐佳青委員長，因為我時間不夠了，我們海外信保基金的回收情況，是非常有必要來檢討的。"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，這個在我接委員長之前就已經長這樣。"],["徐委員巧芯：我理解、我理解。"],["徐委員長佳青：然後這幾年都沒有增加，我們已經把它控制得很好，就是沒有再有呆帳在我的任內發生了。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是應該要追討的部分我們還是要盡力，不然的話……"],["徐委員長佳青：對，但這終身有效，一旦他的戶頭有錢或者他的資產有錢，我們馬上就會去把它追討回來。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊，不然這麼高的一個……"],["徐委員長佳青：這是終身都會追的。"],["徐委員巧芯：81.63左右的數字是讓大家會覺得非常荒謬，所以就麻煩我們委員長繼續努力好嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：會，我們會持續努力。謝謝。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。接下來由葉元之委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":234,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-11","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王定宇","徐巧芯","葉元之","陳永康","林憶君","馬文君"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":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我再進一步請教對於就是前晚柬埔寨緬甸這樣子的從事你們覺得是詐騙是不是國人這樣我們法務部有沒有任何的源頭的預防"},{"start":162.918,"end":188.469,"text":"有嗎跟委員報告那這份法務部已經透過兩岸共打協議管道是聯絡陸方那要求陸方就依照我們兩岸共打協議來進行通報來保障來國人的權益那這部分我想我們只在努力跟陸方再做一個聯絡我們希望能夠遣返"},{"start":190.786,"end":211.986,"text":"這我們問的是說你們有沒有掌握這個名單有沒有跨部會的調查有沒有說要求就是說我們的這些跟你們的就是台灣現在詐騙我們台灣的記錄的名單有沒有在裡面有沒有掌握我們的司法部這樣子都是就在調查在研議的話我們人民對"},{"start":213.047,"end":230.92,"text":"就是這個法務部真的信任度在哪裡我們一定要了解這不是在研議已經現在已經跟陸方在做一個透過兩岸共打協議管道在聯絡在一個洽商之中了嘛所以你們是有名單了這個名單還要叫陸方提供給我們嘛有嗎那現在還在聯絡還在協議"},{"start":237.305,"end":254.581,"text":"在接洽的時候所以協議到什麼時候這個我沒辦法去做跟那個保證就是等待嘛這邊神隊動不能主動這個我們主動跟人家聯繫怎麼不是呢對 所以說我們就是主動但是還沒有明目嘛所以要問說都沒有明目"},{"start":256.153,"end":279.355,"text":"所以好再來我們就是就問也是沒有名目嘛所以我們希望說有名目這樣對我們一天被詐騙就是兩億的我們被詐騙的人民要有一個交代啦我們才能是真的是追回這個經費這樣才是我們要的這個騙的是因為是被害人是大陸人士啊"},{"start":280.335,"end":290.42,"text":"你明確這個是被害人都是大陸人數沒有我們的國民嗎?百分之百確定嗎?你百分之百確定這些嗎?你有沒有百分之百確定?他們詐騙是真的沒有我們的國民嗎?你有百分之百確定嗎?"},{"start":301.496,"end":308.888,"text":"你是猜測而已嘛這不是猜測 這是一個訊息 一個報導嘛報導 所以你都看報導來辦事的不是你們整個團隊去辦事的"},{"start":313.584,"end":337.829,"text":"所以我們再來再問我們的警政署署長現在我們就是不只守住我們國人還有連台灣在我們的移工在台灣也成為詐騙集團的眼中的肥羊最近在臉書冒用我們勞動部職聘中心的名義對移工進行詐騙還有要求叫"},{"start":340.73,"end":365.588,"text":"這就是我們的證件費還有結果呢也是受害了就是財務損失所以呢我們要請教說這個案子我們的警政署有沒有真實的立案偵查還有說有沒有追查到的社團的經營的IP來源還有沒有掌握相關的金流還有我們有沒有啟動這樣子的監管這個部分"},{"start":369.912,"end":398.673,"text":"好 這個部分我們發現有一些詐團有一些對車手的這個部分是去劣勢徵採國外的徵採或者是外籍的這個移工那我們經過這個訊息我們警方大概會了解這個源頭來做一個偵查那我們對於這個潮這個外籍的車子也是這個數量也是非常多也是非常多那目前這個狀況應該有初步的一個遏制"},{"start":399.113,"end":401.595,"text":"那我們也會跟隨時跟移民署跟勞動部來隨時聯繫的這個這相關的這個訊息未來會更加強這源頭的這個這個查集"},{"start":411.091,"end":427.482,"text":"但是我們就是說因為語言隔閡還有資訊不對等所以我們是假用我們政府的機關來去做一個陷阱所以面對那個假冒政府的單位我們也是一個若是被詐騙的案子"},{"start":429.523,"end":451.756,"text":"所以我們有沒有依照打詐事法列入這樣子的辦案有沒有說就是冒名這樣官方的網站官方的名義去詐騙所以我們是要如何去協助因為我們看到你們的有一個網站就是說為了國外的網站但是全部"},{"start":453.243,"end":478.532,"text":"都是中文連英文都沒有所以說這個是在台灣我們現在是我們國外的人很多所以在詐騙裡面的經費被詐騙的也包含在裡面但是說我們現在都面臨這樣子的一個不只是國內的人國外人只要居住台灣的都有被詐騙所以我們希望說有沒有具體的"},{"start":481.216,"end":493.12,"text":"委員的意思是什麼樣的就是具體的部位是哪個部位因為我們現在我們台灣已經說今天講的是我們是已經是很有名的國際有名的詐騙的一個管轄區"},{"start":496.821,"end":500.623,"text":"所以我們不能是讓說送去中國還沒有還沒有判的我們的國民還有移工被詐騙集團就變成是提款機我們政府現在的單位有沒有去研議所以說去了解我們的這次的職責我們聯合國也四度啊 四度點名所以我們希望說我們不能再假裝不知道啦我們團隊是一直在努力沒有不知道啦"},{"start":524.497,"end":544.353,"text":"不要讓我們的詐騙集團他們的台灣是一個溫泉所以我們希望說我們台灣這邊是不是說真正的做事的政府所以我們台灣現在新住民有60萬人移工有85萬人僑生有十幾萬人還有投資的還沒有算"},{"start":545.615,"end":563.677,"text":"所以我希望我們的警政署是不是設一個國際打仗特別小組才能是誇部會誇國來合作的一個單位我報告一下這個是一個整體概念不是說腳痛一頭頭痛一腳那現在政府機關有"},{"start":565.319,"end":580.435,"text":"團隊的一個打炸的一個指揮中心包括各部會是團體在一起有法律的依據那也面對這個炸機的趨勢做聚焦的打擊我們不是完全都不知不知的話那這個我覺得這個講這個太沉重了那現在"},{"start":581.636,"end":607.164,"text":"炸機的這個趨勢也不斷的演變那我們也不斷的改變這個打炸的這個策略那從去年的打炸事法到目前為止我們已經對於案件的發生數跟案件的財損數已經有往下降的趨勢是有劣勁成效但是仍然有努力的空間我們是有有方法有團隊一起來做打炸我想這個我委員應該對我們應該有信心"},{"start":608.544,"end":632.424,"text":"有方法有團隊但是我們現在的就是我們已經被點名四次了所以我現在是我們要來的是協助解決問題不是說我們有很偉大的多少部門但是問題的效果我們要的效果我們效果現在已經有成熟了台灣有那麼多外國人別人可以利用"},{"start":633.365,"end":646.183,"text":"就是不同語言去詐騙不同國家的人在我們台灣但是我們呢我們有那麼多人在台灣為什麼我們不要去用一個國際打詐的一個小組團隊"},{"start":648.426,"end":668.652,"text":"這群人來去協助你去打詐這樣子的話我們可以跨部會又可以有效的這樣子對我們的國民也好對海外的詐騙集團也好也有對我們國民有幫助嘛所以我們希望說我們要有這樣子的一個國際打詐的小組"},{"start":669.732,"end":692.643,"text":"應用我們台灣有的資源有不同國家的語言這樣才更有效力啊我沒有說我們現在做的說多不好但是我們是建議說我們多一個管道多一個方法才對我們國民更有幫助希望我們的署長還有我們的法務部我們還有民民署我們跨部會的如何"},{"start":693.203,"end":705.851,"text":"才不會讓說別人這樣子去點名我們就是東南亞的一個角色所以我們是要並說就是強化數位的政策希望是這樣因為時間有限所以我們希望說我們的各個部會要來跨部會來如何就是成立這樣子的一個多一個打架的小組對我們才真正的有幫助我的目的是這樣"},{"start":723.305,"end":723.325,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1050,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（11時1分）主席好。有請法務部長，還有警政署署長。"],["主席：麻煩部長、署長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好。今年4月聯合國發表報告，數度點名臺灣是國際詐騙重災區，臺灣是亞洲跨國詐騙集團的重要據點之一，也恭喜我們賴總統讓臺灣成為被世界看到的目標。4月份有179名臺灣人被柬埔寨逮捕後，不是遣返回臺接受司法審查，而是直接送到中國，請問我們的司法管轄區在哪裡？這179名的臺籍人士，你們有沒有掌握身分名單？有沒有啟動我們的偵查程序？他們當中有沒有人早就涉及我們國內的詐騙集團案件？你們是否有掌握他們在臺的案件紀錄，還是早已經完全脫離法務部的視野？"],["張署長榮興：委員，這個部分就是之前在柬埔寨，我們臺籍人士可能涉及詐騙，我們駐外的警察聯絡官有配合外交部去做了解，現在人員的名單跟涉案的情節也正在了解當中，不過初步了解這一些人應該是詐騙大陸相關情資的狀況，目前掌握的大概是這樣子。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以到今天還是沒有名單，也沒有調查舉動，那我們來請教一下，是不是我們政府已經主動放棄本國國民的司法管轄區呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分跟……"],["麥委員玉珍：我再進一步請教，對於前往柬埔寨、緬甸從事詐騙的國人，我們法務部有沒有任何源頭的預防，有嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這部分法務部已經透過兩岸共打協議管道聯絡陸方，要求陸方依照兩岸共打協議來進行通報，保障國人的權益，這部分我們一直努力在跟陸方聯絡，我們希望能夠遣返。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們問的是你們有沒有掌握這個名單、有沒有跨部會的調查這些人是否有在臺灣詐騙的紀錄，你們有沒有掌握？我們的法務部都是在調查、在研議的話，我們人民對法務部的信任度在哪裡？我們……"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，你誤會了。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們一定要了解。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不是在研議，現在已經跟陸方透過兩岸共打協議管道在聯絡、在洽商之中了，這哪是研議呢？"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你們有名單了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個名單還要叫陸方提供給我們嘛！"],["麥委員玉珍：有嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在還在聯絡，還在接洽之中嘛！"],["麥委員玉珍：所以協議到什麼時候？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我沒辦法去做保證。"],["麥委員玉珍：就是等待嘛！就變成被動，不能主動，是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不是等待，一直在努力啊！我們主動跟人家聯絡，怎麼不是呢？"],["麥委員玉珍：對，所以說我們就是主動，但是還沒有名目嘛！所以問有沒有名目嘛！我們希望有名目，這樣對我們一天被詐騙2億的人民才有一個交代，才能真的追回這個經費，這才是我們要的嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：被害人是大陸人士，這個不是我們……"],["麥委員玉珍：你明確這個的被害人都是大陸人士，沒有我們的國民嗎？百分之百確定嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以才會遣送到大陸去啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：你百分之百確定這一些嗎？你有沒有百分之百確定？"],["鄭部長銘謙：當然我們希望能夠遣送、能夠接洽，把它來了解啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：他們詐騙的人真的沒有我們的國民嗎？你有百分之百確定嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：它主要就是……"],["麥委員玉珍：你是猜測而已嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不是猜測，這是一個訊息、一個報導嘛！"],["麥委員玉珍：報導？所以你都看報導來辦事的，不是你們整個團隊去辦事的？","再來問警政署署長，現在不只守不住我們國人，還有連在臺灣的移工也成為詐騙集團眼中的肥羊，最近在臉書冒用勞動部直聘中心的名義，對移工進行詐騙，還有要求繳證件費，結果移工受害了，造成財務損失。我們要請教這個案子警政署有沒有正式立案偵查？有沒有追查到社團經營的IP來源？有沒有掌握相關的金流？這個部分我們有沒有啟動這樣子的的監管？"],["張署長榮興：我們發現有些詐團對車手的這個部分是去國外徵才或者是外籍的移工，對於這個訊息，我們警方大概會去了解源頭來做偵查，我們查獲外籍車手的數量也是非常多，目前這個狀況應該有初步的遏制，我們會隨時跟移民署跟勞動部來聯繫相關的訊息，未來會更加強源頭的查緝。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是因為語言隔閡還有資訊不對等，所以它是假用我們政府的機關來去做一個陷阱，所以面對假冒政府的單位，我們也是屬於弱勢被詐騙的案子，所以你們有沒有依照打詐四法列入辦案，就是冒名官方的網站，以官方的名義去詐騙，你們要如何去協助？因為我們看到你們有一個網站，但是全部都是中文，連英文都沒有，臺灣現在國外的人很多，所以被詐騙的也包含這些人在裡面，但是我們現在面臨這樣子的一個狀況，不只是國內的人，國外的人只要居住在臺灣都有被詐騙，所以我們希望的是有沒有具體的？"],["張署長榮興：委員的意思是什麼樣的？就是具體的部分是什麼？"],["麥委員玉珍：現在臺灣已經是國際很有名的詐騙管轄區，我們不能讓還沒有判罪的我們的國民被送去中國，還有讓移工成為詐騙集團的提款機，請問，我們政府現在的單位有沒有去研議、去瞭解自己的職責？聯合國也四度點名，所以我們不能再假裝不知道了……"],["張署長榮興：我們團隊是一直在努力，沒有不知道啦，這個如果講不知道就太沈重了。"],["麥委員玉珍：不要讓詐騙集團當我們臺灣是他們的溫床，所以希望臺灣這邊有真正在做事的政府。臺灣現在的新住民有60萬人，移工有85萬人，僑生有十幾萬人，投資的還沒有算，所以我希望警政署是不是可以設一個國際打詐特別小組，才能是跨部會、跨國合作的單位？"],["張署長榮興：委員，跟你報告一下，這是一個整體的概念，不是腳痛醫頭、頭痛醫腳，現在政府機關有團隊打詐的指揮中心，包括各部會都團結在一起，也有法律的依據，也會面對詐欺的趨勢做聚焦的打擊。我們不是完全都不知道，講不知道的話，我覺得講這個就太沈重了。現在詐欺的趨勢也不斷地演變，我們也不斷地在改變打詐的策略，從去年的打詐四法到目前為止，案件的發生數與案件的財損數已經有往下降的趨勢，是有略見成效的，但是仍然有努力的空間。我們是有方法、有團隊一起在做打詐的，我想委員應該要對我們有信心。"],["麥委員玉珍：有方法、有團隊，但是我們現在就是已經被點名四次了，所以現在是要協助解決問題，而不是說我們有很偉大的多少部門，問題是我們要的效果……"],["張署長榮興：我們要的效果，現在已經有成效了。"],["麥委員玉珍：就像我講的，臺灣有那麼多外國人，別人在臺灣可以利用不同語言去詐騙不同國家的人，但是我們呢？我們有那麼多人在臺灣，為什麼我們不去用一個國際打詐的小組團隊，用這群人去協助你打詐，這樣就可以跨部會，又可以有效，如此，不但可以打擊海外的詐騙集團，對我們國民也有幫助，所以希望我們要有一個國際打詐小組，運用臺灣已有的資源、有不同國家的語言，這樣才會更有效率。我沒說我們現在做的有多不好，但我是建議可以多一個管道、多一個方法，才對我們國民更有幫助，希望署長還有法務部、移民署跨部會來做，才不會讓別人這樣點名我們是東南亞的一個角色。我們要強化數位的偵查，希望是這樣。因為時間有限，所以我們希望各個部會可以跨部會來做，多成立這樣子一個打詐的小組，對我們才是真正有幫助，我的目的是這樣，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請李坤城委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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我們有請部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":11.431,"end":33.441,"text":"委員你好部長好 今天我想要針對一個最近你們也看到網路上面有非常多的討論有關於一個泰國知名的居兒劇的組合Lingo他們現在要來台灣辦一個見面會但是這裡面有幾個疑點 可能今天要來跟部長做個討論第一個疑點就是這一場的主辦單位似乎是境外公司 是中資的超級娛樂"},{"start":35.382,"end":53.015,"text":"我們可以看到這個資訊上面它登記在中國澳門總公司位於中國珠海那根據兩岸人民條例或是港澳條例或是公司法未經許可其實都不可以在台灣舉辦相關的活動營業那這可能會造成一些境外它是經流在境外那它會有很多的問題這樣子那我想先請教因為其實我們之前就已經來詢問文化部了"},{"start":62.141,"end":80.846,"text":"但是文化部告訴我們這一場的主辦不是超級娛樂而是台灣的一間叫做藝尚的一個公司但是我們在iBone上面看到的主辦單位都還是超級娛樂所以到底是超級娛樂還是藝尚製作呢這一點可以先來幫我們做個釐清嗎"},{"start":89.626,"end":104.545,"text":"剛剛我其實有回答過他們是一個合作的方式啦但是主辦到底是誰主辦他是藝善在台灣的部分是由他負責但是這個抄襲是在他是澳門公司嘛他有負責找藝人這樣子好我想先確認一下因為這個東西喔"},{"start":106.147,"end":130.815,"text":"最主要就是說如果到時候發生了票務上的糾紛等等到底是誰要來去處理呢或者是說現場發生了一些狀況一些意外而需要求償的時候到底是向主辦求償還是向協辦來求償呢因為我們的認定他們是合作但是一定通常活動我們辦活動都會分這個主辦跟協辦所以到底到時候發生這些糾紛是跟誰來求償"},{"start":132.95,"end":154.201,"text":"益善公司在台灣負責全部的這些活動我們當然是找益善好 那我想問一下部長不知道是不是益善的資本多少這個我不曉得100萬是可是我大概算了一下以這個票價乘以它現在的一個座位數而且我不是以最低票價來算我不是以這個什麼7980塊這個票價我大概以一個5000塊的票價來去計算它的席次"},{"start":161.184,"end":183.207,"text":"他大概這個收入就會有1500萬那到時候如果說只有一個營業資本額只有100萬的公司第一個他有辦法去負責他有辦法賠償這1500萬的就分嗎第二個如果說他到時候說我只是一個協辦主辦是超級娛樂他推到超級娛樂身上的時候到底會不會最後不了了之呢"},{"start":184.603,"end":197.334,"text":"這個是我覺得部長我們可能需要來釐清到底誰要來承擔這些相關的責任因為這是影響到台灣的追星人的消費權益所以這個部分我們是要再跟議上確認嗎還是怎麼來處理呢"},{"start":199.875,"end":214.96,"text":"像我們有去跟經濟部了解剛剛講到這個超期他的股權結構他的資金等等然後意義上他所扮演的角色我們目前所知道就是負責全部台灣這個部分那這種事情我覺得"},{"start":215.66,"end":238.753,"text":"就是我們未來要很注意的就是一個灰色地帶我想我們現在就要非常的注意這個灰色地帶因為其實像這樣子的模式這個不是第一期今年已經去年也都有就是有非常多中資用這種方式他在台灣沒有落地他找了一個小型的公司那甚至網路上面有在傳這可能是個空殼公司可能就是在活動的前幾個月他才舉辦那有些資本額可能只有20萬"},{"start":240.748,"end":259.715,"text":"那這個就會變成是一個漏洞讓中資可以用漏洞的方式來台灣做這樣子的工作那甚至會不會除了消費爭議可能還會有這個逃漏稅等等的問題會不會甚至有詐騙我覺得這個是需要這個部長我們可能需要盡快的來針對這個方面來去做一些處置"},{"start":261.175,"end":269.478,"text":"這部分是不是可以請部長來盡快來幫我們做個研議呢這個對其實已經不是只有環流問題它可能涉及到國安等等我想說經濟部也好我們陸委會也好我們盡快跟各單位來協調對我們是不是可以跟陸委會經濟部想做是已經是到國安或者是中資進到台灣來換一個方式進到台灣來決定這些演唱會的內容等等這點的確是不只是環流了"},{"start":290.964,"end":314.782,"text":"好 但是我先跟部長講因為這個票10號就要開賣了可是這個可能就已經有我們剛剛講的消費就很爭議存在我們是不是可以在這幾天跟文化部也還有一起來開個會來討論這件事情我們可以怎麼來處理其實我們可以接受個案來檢舉啦就是我們雖然在我們的文創法裡面有這一條譬如說見面會算不算是我們文化部但是我們可以接受個案來"},{"start":315.703,"end":319.608,"text":"個案來檢舉那我們也盡快的委員您剛剛講到的這種我們盡快來跟相關單位來好 這個會後我們來約時間好不好因為我們還是要確保我們所消費者的權益啦讓他們追得到人找得到錢啦好不好那再來第二個部分就是說"},{"start":331.142,"end":353.563,"text":"見面會到底是不是用文創法我先跟部長有個簡單的概念喔其實在我小時候因為小時候就開始追星啦那時候叫做簽唱會那是對於歌手的部分但是大家可能部長也非常清楚對於演員的部分其實我們一直都沒有相關的形式過去在台灣沒有任何形式可以跟喜愛他的這個粉絲去做一些交流"},{"start":353.943,"end":372.145,"text":"所以這也是為什麼後來韓劇大夯之後我們可以看到韓國發展出了一個叫做見面會的形式其實它就是透過一個這樣子的形式來跟粉絲做互動那這些藝人本身他就是一個有名非常非常有名因為他的戲劇作品受到非常大的喜愛的一個"},{"start":373.226,"end":393.615,"text":"一個人物喔那可是我們現在的文創法裡面卻把這個東西不納入進去而導致我們不能抓黃牛欸可是我要跟部長講喔在這個見面會裡面其實都一定有歌舞表演欸都一定有歌舞表演而且這些見面會的營收是相當驚人的喔如果我們來看2023年這是我自己從網路上面"},{"start":394.415,"end":412.91,"text":"我們用工人聚會去手動去計算出的一些場次所以可能有一些沒有抓到的但是以2023年你看33場2024年40場2025年到4月而已已經11場了所以這個場次其實是越來越多的而且如果以席次而且以不是一個很大的館場以台大體育館一個"},{"start":414.031,"end":436.432,"text":"管大概兩千我算八成就好收入大概你看2023年就1.85億2024年就2.24億那2025年到現在4月就已經0.62億了所以這是一筆不小的錢耶而且他們的票價其實都是像剛剛你有看到嘛7980塊這個東西不納入文創法我覺得就是讓黃牛可以鑽漏洞啊這部分是不是可以來做一些處理呢"},{"start":438.544,"end":466.248,"text":"這部分是不是可以來研議把文創法來做一些調整我們可以討論一下因為那個黃流這個事情也許有的是在運動有的是在這種譯文那我想我們能夠做到的就是先接受個案的處理然後再下一步就是這個法案要不要修怎麼修我想這是我們要慎重的所以我聽起來部長其實您是開放的嘛對不對因為對於見面會因為這個其實這個形式是一直不停的在跟粉絲的交流跟互動其實是一直不停的在"},{"start":466.668,"end":485.324,"text":"各案每次到底做到什麼程度 見面會本身到底有沒有唱歌剛才講賣票當然沒問題 一定有賣票我們要怎麼樣去界定他是屬於文創法裡面可以管轄的這點我想我們要慎重的來考慮但是我們目前能做到就是各案來審查"},{"start":487.475,"end":517.095,"text":"那這個個案審查我到時候可能會再問一下到底要怎麼樣來提供相關的資訊來審查這個個案好不好是沒問題那再來就是一個部分我先問一個最重要的一個問題因為其實之前大家文化部都有講說如果有大咖要來台灣的時候你們一定會去先跟他做遊說希望他可以使用實名制我想要問一下七月GD這是震撼亞洲非常大的一個大咖他要來台灣了我們準備好了嗎我們跟他們接觸了嗎"},{"start":518.741,"end":522.277,"text":"可不可以做个说明请那个我们的司长回答"},{"start":524.668,"end":548.303,"text":"委員好 那因為基本上其實民間辦理演唱會還是民間的自由機制那這一場委員提醒的我們來試著找一下它台灣是由哪一家公司來辦理我們會先試著能夠聯繫跟打電話提醒好 那我們大概什麼時候可以追蹤這個進度呢因為這個東西一定到時候會有非常非常多的可能大家非常關注的啦大概什麼時候我們可以來追蹤後續的進度"},{"start":548.843,"end":570.396,"text":"委員因為我們現在真的不知道他現在台灣是找哪一間所以我們真的就只能是多方的去詢問看看願不願意先事先透露給我們那可不可以委員讓我們能夠有消息的時候就趕緊跟你這邊做說明不然這樣好不好我們五月底之前好不好五月底之前再來徵詢一下現在的進度那這邊我再做一個提醒因為其實之前在這個"},{"start":572.093,"end":591.385,"text":"周杰倫的時候蔡依林的時候這種非常大咖都有黃牛詐騙的問題那我非常擔心GD這一場也會有黃牛詐騙他們在網路上面說賣票可是最後其實他是用黃牛這個形式來做詐騙這個部分我們是不是可以跟我們的金管會還有這個不是金管會啦跟這個法務部"},{"start":592.859,"end":615.625,"text":"速發部一起來討論我們如何來預防這樣子的詐騙行為是不是可以來做這件事情 部長是 我們其實跟速發部那種已經有合作怎麼樣把那個詐騙下架等等我想我們會進一步來研究這個那這部分我一樣五月底來跟文化部再做進一步的討論好不好我們如何來預防這一場也變成黃牛因為這是一個犯罪行為好不好 好 謝謝"},{"start":618.288,"end":622.039,"text":"好 謝謝張雅玲委員 部長請回我們接下來請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":443,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時00分）謝謝主席，我們有請部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。今天我想要針對一個議題，我想最近你們收到也看到網路上面有非常多討論，有關泰國知名GL劇的組合LingOrm，他們現在要來臺灣辦一個見面會，但是有幾個疑點要跟部長討論，第一個疑點，這一場的主辦單位似乎是境外公司，是中資的超奇娛樂，我們可以看到這個資訊上面，它登記在中國澳門，總公司位於中國珠海，根據兩岸人民關係條例或港澳條例，或是公司法未經許可其實都不可以在臺灣舉辦相關的活動、營業，因為它是金流在境外，它會有很多的問題，我想請教，因為我們之前就已經詢問文化部了，但是文化部告訴我們這一場的主辦不是超奇娛樂，而是臺灣一間叫做藝尚公司，但是我們在ibon上面看到的主辦單位都還是超奇娛樂，到底是超奇娛樂還是藝尚製作？這一點可以先幫我們釐清嗎？"],["李部長遠：剛剛我其實有回答過，他們是一個合作的方式。"],["張委員雅琳：但是主辦到底是誰？"],["李部長遠：在臺灣的部分，主辦是由藝尚負責，但是超奇是澳門公司，它有負責找藝人，大概是這樣的關係。"],["張委員雅琳：我想先確認一下，因為這個東西最主要就是如果到時候發生了票務上的糾紛等等，到底是誰要來處理？或是現場發生了一些狀況、意外，而需要求償的時候，到底是向主辦求償還是向協辦來求償？因為我們認定他們是合作……"],["李部長遠：對。"],["張委員雅琳：通常我們辦活動都會分主辦跟協辦，所以到時候發生這些糾紛是跟誰來求償？"],["李部長遠：藝尚公司在臺灣負責全部這些活動，我們當然是找藝尚。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我想問部長，知不知道藝尚的資本多少？"],["李部長遠：這個我不曉得。"],["張委員雅琳：100萬。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["張委員雅琳：我大概算了一下，以這個票價乘以現在的座位數，而且我是以最低票價來算，我不是以7,980塊的票價，我大概以一個5,000塊的票價來計算席次，大概收入就會有1,500萬，到時候如果資本額只有100萬的公司，第一個，它有辦法去負責賠償這1,500萬的糾紛嗎？第二個，如果它到時候說，我只是一個協辦，主辦是超奇娛樂，它推到超奇娛樂身上的時候，會不會最後不了了之？部長，我們需要釐清到底誰要來承擔這些相關的責任，因為這是影響到臺灣追星人的消費權益，所以這個部分我們是要再跟藝尚確認嗎？還是怎麼來處理呢？"],["李部長遠：我們有去跟經濟部了解，剛剛講到超奇的股權結構、資金等等，然後藝尚所扮演的角色，我們目前所知道就是負責全部臺灣這個部分。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["李部長遠：我覺得這種事情就是我們未來要很注意的一個灰色地帶。"],["張委員雅琳：我們現在就要非常注意這個灰色地帶，因為像這樣子的模式，這個不是第一起，今年、去年也都有，有非常多中資用這種方式，它在臺灣沒有落地，它找了一個小型的公司，甚至網路上面有在傳，這可能是個空殼公司，可能在活動的前幾個月它才舉辦，有些資本額可能只有20萬，這個就會變成是一個漏洞，讓中資可以用漏洞的方式來臺灣做這樣的工作，除了消費爭議，可能還會有逃漏稅等等的問題，會不會甚至有詐騙？部長，我們可能需要儘快來針對這個方面去做一些處置，這部分是不是可以請部長儘快來幫我們做個研議呢？"],["李部長遠：這個其實已經不是只有黃牛問題，它可能涉及到國安等等，我想……"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯。"],["李部長遠：經濟部也好，陸委會也好，我們儘快跟各單位來協調。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我們是不是可以跟陸委會、經濟部……"],["李部長遠：像這種事情已經是到國安，或是中資換一個方式進到臺灣來決定這些演唱會的內容等等，這點的確不只是黃牛了，我們儘快……"],["張委員雅琳：好，但是我先跟部長講，因為這個票10號就要開賣了，可是這可能就已經有我們剛剛講的消費爭議存在，我們是不是可以在這幾天跟文化部一起開個會來討論這件事情，我們可以怎麼來處理？"],["李部長遠：是，其實我們可以接受個案來檢舉，雖然在文創法裡面沒有這一條，比如見面會算不算是文化部？但是我們可以接受個案來檢舉，委員您剛剛講到的，我們儘快跟相關單位來協調。"],["張委員雅琳：好，這個會後我們來約時間，好不好？"],["李部長遠：OK。"],["張委員雅琳：因為我們還是要確保我們消費者的權益，讓他們追得到人，找得到錢，好不好？"],["李部長遠：沒問題。"],["張委員雅琳：再來，第二個部分就是見面會到底適不適用文創法？我先跟部長有個簡單的概念，在我小時候，因為小時候我就開始追星，那時候叫做簽唱會，那是對於歌手的部分，部長也非常清楚，對於演員的部分，過去在臺灣沒有任何形式可以跟喜愛他的粉絲去做交流，所以這也是為什麼後來韓劇大夯之後，我們看到韓國發展出了一個叫做見面會的形式，他就是透過這樣的形式來跟粉絲做互動，這些藝人本身就非常有名，因為他的戲劇作品而受到非常大的喜愛的一個人物，可是我們現在的文創法裡面，卻不把這個東西納進去，而導致我們不能抓黃牛，可是我要跟部長講，在見面會裡面都一定有歌舞表演，而且這些見面會的營收是相當驚人的，如果我們來看2023年，這是我自己從網路上面，我們用工人智慧去手動計算出的一些場次，所以可能有一些沒有抓到的，但是以2023年33場，2024年40場，2025年到4月而已已經11場了，這個場次是越來越多的。如果以不是很大場館的席次來算，以臺大體育館一個館大概2,000席次，我算八成就好，2023年收入大概就1.85億，2024年就2.24億，那2025年到現在4月才就已經0.62億了，這是一筆不小的錢，而且他們的票價都是像剛剛你有看到7,980塊，這個東西不納入文創法，我覺得就是讓黃牛可以鑽漏洞，這部分是不是可以來做一些處理？是不是可以研議把文創法做一些調整？"],["李部長遠：我們可以討論一下，因為黃牛這個事情，也許有的是在運動、有的是在藝文，我們能夠做到就是先接受個案的處理，再下一步就是法案要不要修？怎麼修？這是我們要慎重的。"],["張委員雅琳：我聽起來，部長您是開放的，對不對？"],["李部長遠：對，開放的。"],["張委員雅琳：因為見面會這個形式跟粉絲的交流跟互動，其實是一直不停的變化。"],["李部長遠：對，個案每次都做到什麼程度，見面會本身到底有沒有唱歌？剛才講賣票當然沒問題，一定有賣票，我們要怎麼去界定它是屬於文創法裡面可以管轄的，這點我們要慎重地來考慮，但是我們目前能做到就是個案來審查。"],["張委員雅琳：我到時候可能會再問一下，到底要怎麼提供相關的資訊來審查這個個案，好不好？"],["李部長遠：沒問題。"],["張委員雅琳：我先問最重要的一個問題，因為之前文化部都有講，如果有大咖要來臺灣的時候，你們一定會先跟他遊說，希望他可以使用實名制，我想要問一下7月GD，這是震撼亞洲非常大的一個大咖，他要來臺灣了，我們準備好了嗎？我們跟他們接觸了嗎？可不可以說明？"],["李部長遠：請我們的司長回答。"],["吳司長宜璇：委員好。因為基本上民間辦理演唱會還是民間的自由機制，委員提醒的這一場，我們試著找一下臺灣是由哪一家公司來辦理，我們會事前先試著聯繫跟打電話提醒。"],["張委員雅琳：好，因為這個一定會有非常多的關注，大概什麼時候我們可以追蹤後續的進度？"],["吳司長宜璇：委員，因為我們現在真的不知道它現在在臺灣是找哪一間。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["吳司長宜璇：所以我們真的只能多方的詢問看看，願不願意先事先透露給我們，委員，可不可以讓我們能夠有消息的時候，就趕緊跟您這邊做說明？"],["張委員雅琳：不然這樣，我們5月底之前再來徵詢一下現在的進度，好不好？"],["吳司長宜璇：好。"],["張委員雅琳：這邊我再做一個提醒，之前在周杰倫、蔡依林的時候，這種非常大咖都有黃牛詐騙的問題，我非常擔心GD這一場也會有黃牛詐騙，他們在網路上面說是賣票，可是最後他們是用黃牛這個形式來做詐騙，針對這個部分是不是可以跟法務部及數發部一起來討論，我們要如何預防這樣的詐騙行為？是不是可以來做這件事情？部長。"],["李部長遠：是，我們其實跟數發部已經有在合作，怎麼樣把詐騙網站下架等等，我們會再進一步來研究。"],["張委員雅琳：這部分我5月底再跟文化部做進一步的討論，好不好？我們如何來預防這一場也變成黃牛，因為這是一個犯罪行為，好不好？謝謝。"],["李部長遠：OK，好。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，部長請回。","接下來請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-10","speakers":["林宜瑾","郭昱晴","劉書彬","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","柯志恩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳秀寳","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","葉元之","范雲","蘇巧慧","黃捷","陳培瑜","邱志偉"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算解凍案49案","agenda_id":"1144601_00005"}}},{"id":"160998","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160998","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e06542c7d326e6f8d0f1c005f00a3db85f73464f2517af749f0eedc1de391cb15195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:51:22 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主席麻煩委員長王委員你好委員長我在開始今天題目之前我還是要提醒我剛才有聽陳冠廷委員提芝加哥這個事情是我只提醒一個原則就是"},{"start":19.878,"end":30.711,"text":"很多台橋以前是不喜歡跟橋尾會站在一起是都不跟官方接觸的不是官方特別橋尾會就不想跟橋尾會站在一起所以這一次發生有所謂的橋尾會的志工"},{"start":32.322,"end":50.556,"text":"這個剛剛我解釋過那是誤會不管是誰去Photoshop那個圖其實在美國在台灣這種事情都已經很罕見了不應該去做所謂言論審查那這個如果是誤會解釋清楚那我覺得一個在美國發生的波瀾跟我們之間的友好的一個活動"},{"start":51.437,"end":77.703,"text":"不要因為這些事情去抹殺了很多人的用心我今天要請教我們委員長第一個題目是有關對等關稅的部分當然這不是你主責的啦經濟部跟我們現在談判辦以及鄭麗君副委員長現在正在美國華府那我也剛從那邊回來我現在是就我們僑委會相關的部分僑委會沒包雙包害啦關稅也不是你在管的"},{"start":78.323,"end":86.188,"text":"但是因為我看你們的報告書裡面有說有看到來這個影像不見了可能後面那個"},{"start":88.459,"end":108.622,"text":"好,這個喬委會本身的報告就說,你們有向台商進行相關的了解,你們目前了解的情況怎麼樣?因為這一次對等關稅,東南亞是一大塊,中國的台商不歸你們管,在東南亞的台商,你們目前聽到的訊息是什麼?"},{"start":109.298,"end":111.68,"text":"我們其實在4月2號之後呢一個禮拜後我們就針對各國的台商會長先發一個前期的這個結論是什麼因為時間有限結論因為各國狀況很不一樣那所以大家都現在對於這種不確定性的狀況後來因為宣布了90天或"},{"start":131.259,"end":151.646,"text":"這個暫停可是大家對於這個目前的狀況覺得很不確定的情況下都會暫停下單或者暫停出貨避免風波4月2號的liberation day那一天是很多人暫停下單到4月9號宣布有70個國家左右90 days post"},{"start":152.751,"end":167.602,"text":"那個天開始其實是即單喔是即單不是暫停喔就是說趕快趕快把我Christmas要的你90天內搶到船位送過來因為那個90天內是所以4月份這個確實container是很對"},{"start":168.863,"end":183.017,"text":"所以你該講說現在是單子沒有單或冷凍不太一樣啦現在應該是搶90天內的單而台灣是前面四個國家優先在談判的一旦確定從90 days pause移到"},{"start":184.226,"end":204.911,"text":"Permanent 永久性的暫停的話當然對台灣是利多的消息我還是回到我們交友會的業務跟委員報告 其實是有業別的差異剛剛講的這個Christmas 比較是這個我只是舉例啦我現在意思說你們對東南亞東南亞因為他的形態上我們會分業別的差異性就是說他是鞋子的或者是成衣的你們這個調查報告有沒有出來"},{"start":207.812,"end":233.666,"text":"這個是第一階段只是先問會長接下來五月六月我們兩個月份會針對各州開始普發問卷這個東西訊息萬變你如果先問出來的東西沒有馬上變報告下個禮拜變垃圾沒用了因為搞不好川普又宣布一個新的或者是間接性的關係比方說要洗產地那中國跟這個東南亞國家之間產生什麼樣關稅的關係馬來西亞就宣布啦"},{"start":234.446,"end":253.742,"text":"所以內地宣布對供應鏈它的component是從中國過來到馬來西亞組裝最終市場在美國的跟直接在馬來西亞生產的又不一樣所以我說你們調查報告我只看到一句話說有去了解但是這些報告如果沒辦法快速的彙整我給你一個具體建議跟經濟部合作"},{"start":254.803,"end":282.302,"text":"因为这讯息变得很快那现在我们在东南亚投资其实已经超越中国成为是比中国还要大的投资市场那美国是第一大然后第二大是对东南亚中国以前占比最大我们对外投资以前中国大概占市场欧盟也增加非常多现在我们对中国的投资只剩下个位数7%多第一大投资对目标国是美国第二大是东南亚再来就是欧盟"},{"start":282.662,"end":309.341,"text":"如果了解這個狀況的話在東南亞第一大的當中的國家就是越南佔比相當高那他的關稅打擊其實也重越南也直接喊出來對美要0%現在他跟台灣是第一輪四個國家談判所以你們對於類似在東南亞的業界關稅你也不能介入他國內政他們國家的事情我們可以對他們提供什麼樣的協助"},{"start":310.021,"end":329.06,"text":"一方面我們會了解就是廠商業別然後再來就是說他是除了越南廠以外是不是還有其他廠因為根據我們了解他們很多從中國移出以後不是只有投資在越南廠你這個還是在研究階段我意思是你手上有什麼政策工具你手上有什麼樣的政治工具可以去幫助我們海外僑客商"},{"start":329.821,"end":354.399,"text":"第一個就是我們這個信保基金如果他們在短期內他們需要融資短期資金需求的融資那第二個就是說幫他們就是做彙整一些相關的資訊提供他們一些資訊的協助那現在有關我們對於橋外商的協助有涵蓋在現在行政院提出的特別條例跟特別預算跟委員報告事實上這個講的都是針對國內的廠商對內嘛"},{"start":357.341,"end":376.016,"text":"是對內而已所以那800多億甚至現在擴大到4100億都沒有含過我們的4100億裡面有包含國家韌性國防所以說卓院長所提出的所謂的因應這個Receptacle Tariff目前這個沒有包含它針對的是國內的嘛條外商用不到嘛"},{"start":376.656,"end":399.242,"text":"所以你現在手上我盤點了一下你手上唯一的政策工具大概就是信保基金對你也沒有第二個了嘛對那我就要請教你信保基金了把第二個好先信保基金你們現在信保基金來協助這一波受影響的台商你們的方案是什麼其實我們信保基金過去到現在一直都是對南向國家的這個保證額度到250萬但事實上呢"},{"start":405.407,"end":426.106,"text":"所有的橋台商他們想要貸更多事實上是可以的只是說你超過這個額度以後呢這部分呢就沒有我們來幫你做這個保證可是如果這個橋台商他長期已經有很好的合作銀行事實上他可以貸到更高的額度是不會受影響的我們長期那個林董事長也很久了是就是說"},{"start":427.406,"end":452.984,"text":"我們信保基金以往額度就是兩百到兩百五十萬一家公司嘛所以現在我們委員長這邊是公開宣示說你就要在信購好往來互動有點像銀行的概念因為這都是看銀行願不願意嘛你知道往來的信用不錯出入的頻率也不錯兩百五十萬額度的上限可能是針對新人對於既有的客戶也許可以更高那有額度的有到哪個程度啊"},{"start":455.033,"end":483.184,"text":"因為是信保喔我現在不是講有擔保就不用你們了啦是 報告王委員現在就是說我們當然就是剛剛委員長講的我們的融資的對象就是八成是新南向國家所以就是這是對等關稅最嚴重的都協助新南向國家為主然後我們現在平均的融資的我們是雖然說是兩百萬但是我們現在平均差不多六七十萬美金所以其實大部分就大部分都還有相當的一個空間"},{"start":487.086,"end":508.535,"text":"那剛才委員長講說未必上限到250可以更高跟委員說明就是說他如果他的這個額度內的這個讓我們信用保證的時候他的手續費會跟著增加然後他的利率的部分事實上也是他還可以跟他貸款的銀行去談判利率有沒有一些可以有"},{"start":509.855,"end":528.452,"text":"差額的部分那事實上我們是只收到250萬的那個上限的手續費那再更多的部分呢那部分我們就不做信用保證所以我現在盤點的是政策工具是我不做250萬以上我不再做信用保證他跟銀行往來累積信用度不錯他可以跟銀行多借坦白講"},{"start":529.755,"end":553.845,"text":"不是我們的事啦但是因為我們基金規模只有20億左右而已那句話不是說我們僑委會看你往來不錯我的信保的擔保額度可以超過250 沒辦法沒有沒有沒有我們可以最保證的到250萬美金信保基金是一個平台真正錢借出去還是銀行當然"},{"start":554.645,"end":583.222,"text":"然後信保基金呢只是說我們有協助一些補貼在利息上的優惠但是呢有上限就是250萬至於這一家海外的企業他可以借到1000萬借到1億坦白講是他信用有夠資產有夠銀行加錢而已嘛那個不叫你的政策工具那個是銀行自己銀行不放貸他拿來賺錢所以他一定要放貸信用可靠的公司才可以回收嘛我這邊要提這一點就是說在我們的政策工具內"},{"start":585.355,"end":609.154,"text":"經過這麼多年 兩百到兩百五十萬 主要第一天來的就是這個額度經濟社會變化多少 我們GDP從陳水扁馬英九時代是大概一兆七千億左右到現在我們的GDP都已經到三兆三了我們這個額度還在兩百跟兩百五十萬新南向的商業活動那麼多 我是建議因為這牽涉到錢放出去要收的回來"},{"start":609.554,"end":613.595,"text":"委員這個我們基本上都是對中小企業那所以這個250萬美金呢讓他在這個營運擴廠融資上面或者他是新創事業事實上對於這種類型的目前這個額度其實都夠的那你如果是非常大型的公司基本上他們會去如果連帶他大概也不會找你他不會找我們對沒錯我是建議說我們希望我們的中小企業會成長"},{"start":635.959,"end":653.533,"text":"然後我們的僑委會也不要因為他長大了他就自己去找銀行了我是說你們可以去思考我們現在政策工具兩百萬到兩百五十萬的額度可以適度設置有點像像退府會退府居然有我們再增加我們的清新規模我們就可以把上限提高設定第二級"},{"start":654.233,"end":669.41,"text":"就是這個往來或者他的行業或者怎麼樣到什麼程度的話他直接到第二級不是大家都可以到第二級的時候我可以幫你擔保額度更高一點所以我是建議讓你的工具更豐富更靈活因為市場在多樣化我們"},{"start":670.251,"end":682.28,"text":"事實上委員我們最少是200那250萬就是因應2017年的新南向之後又多了50萬所以不是不可能是有可能但是跟著這個增加的同時就是我們的基金規模必須要增資所以我們這個基金規模要增資的同時要編列預算"},{"start":687.023,"end":708.677,"text":"當然 這個就是公務部門的政治工具嘛當你做了市場分析評估我們現在投資額度從2017年前的多少到現在投資額已經爬到第二大了而東南亞的4億人口的市場是我們所重視的希望強化政府跟橋外商 橋台商的連結那200萬到250萬額度顯然不足以支應某一些"},{"start":712.699,"end":740.37,"text":"案子的時候根據這個你們提出來希望行政院這邊增加基金的規模然後我們也設定一定的條件在特定的行業可以進入到更高一級的這樣子橋委會也成長了我們在橋外的部分的服務也成長了否則一旦離開這個額度就脫離你們的手有點可惜啦因為很多小雞可能養大你們有功勞啊就我的意思說你們可以去評估一下你們這個政策工具夠不夠好不好好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":742.528,"end":742.549,"text":"謝謝王國興"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":329,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時51分）主席，麻煩委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：王委員，你好。"],["王委員定宇：委員長，我在開始今天的題目之前，我還是要提醒，我剛才有聽陳冠廷委員提到芝加哥這個事情，我只提醒一個原則，很多臺僑以前是不喜歡跟僑委會站在一起。"],["徐委員長佳青：是，都不跟官方接觸的。"],["王委員定宇：不是官方，特別不喜歡跟僑委會站在一起。所以這一次發生有所謂的僑委會志工……"],["徐委員長佳青：剛剛我解釋過，這是誤會。"],["王委員定宇：不管是誰去photoshop那個圖，其實在美國、在臺灣這種事情都已經很罕見了，不應該去做所謂的言論審查，如果是誤會就解釋清楚，我覺得一個在美國發生的波蘭跟我們之間友好的活動，不要因為這些事情抹煞了很多人的用心。"],["徐委員長佳青：被扭曲了。"],["王委員定宇：我今天要請教委員長的第一個題目是有關對等關稅的部分，當然這不是你主責的，經濟部、談判辦以及鄭麗君副院長現在正在美國華府，我也剛從那邊回來，我現在是就僑委會相關的部分，僑委會沒有包山包海，關稅也不是你在管的。但是因為我在你們的報告書裡面有看到，僑委會的報告提到你們有向臺商進行相關的瞭解，目前瞭解的情況怎麼樣？因為這一次對等關稅，東南亞是一大塊，中國的臺商不歸你們管，在東南亞的臺商，你們目前聽到的訊息是什麼？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們其實在4月2日的一個禮拜之後，就針對各國的臺商會長先發一個前期的……"],["王委員定宇：結論是什麼？因為時間有限。"],["徐委員長佳青：因為各國狀況很不一樣，所以大家現在對於這種不確定性的狀況，後來又宣布了90天暫停，可是大家覺得目前的狀況很不確定的情況下，都會暫停下單或者暫停出貨，避免風波。"],["王委員定宇：原來4月2日的Liberation Day那一天是很多人暫停下單，到4月9日宣布有70個國家左右90 days paused，那天開始其實是急單，不是暫停，就是要趕快把我聖誕節要的貨品，在90天內搶到船位送過來，因為90天內是……"],["徐委員長佳青：所以4月份的container確實是需求很大。"],["王委員定宇：所以你剛才講是沒有單或冷凍，不太一樣啦！現在應該是搶90天內的單，而臺灣是前面四個國家優先在談判的，一旦確定從90 days paused移到永久性（permanent）暫停的話，當然對臺灣是利多的消息。","我還是回到僑委會的業務……"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，其實這是有業別的差異，剛剛講的聖誕節比較是……"],["王委員定宇：我只是舉例，我現在的意思是，你們對東南亞的臺商……"],["徐委員長佳青：在東南亞的型態上，我們會分業別的差異性，比如，它是鞋子或者是成衣的……"],["王委員定宇：你們的調查報告有沒有出來？"],["徐委員長佳青：這個是第一階段，只是先問會長，接下來5月、6月，我們兩個月份會針對各州開始普發問卷跟……"],["王委員定宇：我要提醒僑委會，這個東西瞬息萬變。"],["徐委員長佳青：是的。"],["王委員定宇：你如果問出來的東西沒有馬上變成報告，下個禮拜變垃圾就沒用了，因為搞不好川普又宣布一個新的或者是間接性的關係，比方要洗產地，那中國跟東南亞國家之間產生什麼樣的關稅關係，馬來西亞就宣布了啊！所以那些宣布對供應鏈、component是從中國過來到馬來西亞組裝，最終市場是在美國的，跟直接在馬來西亞生產的又不一樣。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["王委員定宇：所以我說你們的調查報告，我只看到一句話說有去了解，但這些報告如果沒辦法快速地彙整，我給你一個具體建議，跟經濟部合作、儘快，因為訊息變得很快。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["王委員定宇：現在我們在東南亞投資其實已經超越中國。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["王委員定宇：成為比中國還大的投資市場，美國是第一大。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["王委員定宇：第二大是對東南亞，中國以前占比最大，我們對外投資以前中國大概占四成……"],["徐委員長佳青：歐盟也增加非常多。"],["王委員定宇：對，現在我們對中國的投資只剩下個位數七%多，第一大投資目標國是美國，第二大是東南亞，再來就是歐盟。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["王委員定宇：了解這個狀況的話，在東南亞當中第一大的國家就是越南，占比相當高，那他的關稅打擊其實也重，越南也直接喊出來對美要0%，現在他跟臺灣是第一輪的4個談判國家。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以你們對於類似在東南亞的業界，關稅你也不能介入他國內政，是他們國家的事情。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["王委員定宇：我們可以對他們提供什麼樣的協助？"],["徐委員長佳青：一方面我們會了解廠商業別，再來就是它除了越南廠以外，是不是還有其他廠？因為根據我們了解，他們很多從中國移出以後，不是只有投資在越南廠。"],["王委員定宇：這個還在研究階段，我的意思是你手上有什麼政策工具？你手上有什麼樣的政治工具可以幫助我們的海外臺商？"],["徐委員長佳青：第一個就是我們信保基金，如果在短期內他們需要融資。"],["王委員定宇：短期資金需求。"],["徐委員長佳青：對，短期資金需求的融資。"],["王委員定宇：還有呢？"],["徐委員長佳青：第二個就是幫他們彙整一些相關的資訊，提供他們一些資訊的協助。"],["王委員定宇：那現在有關我們對於僑外商的協助，有涵蓋在現在行政院提出的特別條例跟特別預算裡面嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，事實上這個講的都是針對國內廠商。"],["王委員定宇：那個是對內嘛！"],["徐委員長佳青：是對內而已。"],["王委員定宇：卓院長……"],["徐委員長佳青：所以那八百多億，甚至現在擴大到4,100億，都沒有含括過我們的……"],["王委員定宇：四千多億裡面有包含國家韌性、國防……"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["王委員定宇：我的意思是，卓院長所提出所謂的因應reciprocal tariff……"],["徐委員長佳青：目前這個沒有包含……"],["王委員定宇：它針對的是國內的嘛？僑外商用不到嘛？"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["王委員定宇：我盤點了一下，你手上唯一的政策工具大概就是信保基金。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["王委員定宇：你也沒有第二個了。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["王委員定宇：那我就要請教你信保基金。"],["徐委員長佳青：好，先是信保基金。"],["王委員定宇：現在信保基金來協助這一波受影響的臺商，你們的方案是什麼？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們信保基金從過去到現在，一直都對南向國家的保證額度是到250萬，但所有僑臺商想要貸更多，事實上是可以的，只是你超過這個額度以後，這一部分就沒有我們幫你做保證。可是如果這個僑臺商長期已經有很好的合作銀行，事實上他可以貸到更高的額度，是不會受影響的。"],["王委員定宇：所以我們長期……林董事長也很久了。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["王委員定宇：就是我們信保基金以往額度就是200到250萬、一家公司。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以現在委員長這邊是公開宣示說，你只要債信夠好，往來互動上有點像銀行的概念……"],["徐委員長佳青：因為這都是看銀行願不願意。"],["王委員定宇：對，你只要往來的信用不錯，出入的頻率也不錯，250萬額度的上限，可能是針對新人，對於既有的客戶也許可以更高，那有額度的……有到哪個程度嗎？因為這是信保，我現在不是講……有擔保的就不用你們了。"],["林董事長寶惜：是，報告王委員，現在我們當然就是，剛剛委員長講的，我們融資的對象八成是新南向國家。"],["王委員定宇：OK。"],["林董事長寶惜：所以是對等關稅最嚴重的，協助新南向國家為主。我們現在平均的融資，雖然說是200萬，但我們現在平均差不多六、七十萬美金，所以絕大部分都還有相當的空間。"],["王委員定宇：就是200萬、250萬啦！剛才委員長講未必上限到250萬，可以更高……"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員說明，額度內讓我們信用保證的時候，手續費也會跟著增加，然後利率的部分，他也還可以跟貸款銀行去談判利率有沒有一些差額的部分，事實上我們是只收到250萬那個上限的手續費，再更多的部分我們就不做信用保證。"],["王委員定宇：我現在盤點的是政策工具。"],["徐委員長佳青：是，250萬以上我不再做信用保證。"],["王委員定宇：它跟銀行往來所累積信用度不錯，可以跟銀行多借，坦白講不是我們的事，我們還是只有250萬的額度嘛！"],["徐委員長佳青：是，委員，但是因為我們的基金規模只有20億左右而已。"],["王委員定宇：對，看得出來就是跑太快了，那一句話不是僑委會看你往來不錯，你的擔保額度可以超過250萬，沒有吧？"],["徐委員長佳青：沒有！"],["王委員定宇：還是在250萬以內。"],["徐委員長佳青：我們可以保證的是到250萬美金。"],["王委員定宇：因為你們的作業方式信保基金是一個平台，真正錢借出去還是銀行。"],["徐委員長佳青：當然。"],["王委員定宇：信保基金只是有協助一些補貼在利息上的優惠，但是有250萬上限。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["王委員定宇：至於這一家海外的企業可以借到1,000萬、借到1億，坦白說是它的信用有夠、獨占有夠，銀行敢借它嘛！"],["徐委員長佳青：是，沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：那個不叫你的政策工具，銀行不放貸哪來賺錢，所以銀行一定要放貸給信用可靠的公司才可以回收，我要提這一點就是說，在我們的政策工具內經過這麼多年，200到250萬從我第一天來立法院就是這個額度了，經濟社會變化多少，我們的GDP從陳水扁、馬英九時代大概是1兆7,000億左右，到現在我們的GDP都已經到3兆3,000億了，這個額度還在200萬跟250萬，新南向的商業活動那麼多，我是建議，因為這牽涉到錢放出去要收得回來。"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我們基本上都是對中小企業。"],["王委員定宇：當然。"],["徐委員長佳青：所以250萬美金讓中小企業在營運、擴廠、融資上，或者它是新創事業，事實上對於這種類型目前這個額度其實都夠的，如果是非常大型的公司，基本上他們會去做聯貸。"],["王委員定宇：它大概也不會找你們。"],["徐委員長佳青：對，沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：我是建議，希望我們的中小企業會成長，然後僑委會也不要因為它長大就自己去找銀行了，我是說你們可以去思考現在政策工具200萬到250萬的額度可以適度設計，有點像退輔會退伍軍人有分成第一級跟第二級……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們再增加基金規模就可以把上限提高。"],["王委員定宇：你可以設定就往來、它的行業或者到什麼程度可以直接到第二級，不是大家都可以，到第二級的時候可以幫你擔保額度會更高一點，所以我是建議讓你的工具更豐富、更靈活，因為市場在多樣化，我們……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，事實上我們最少是200萬，那250萬就是因應2017年新南向之後又多了50萬。"],["王委員定宇：有增加額度。"],["徐委員長佳青：所以不是不可能，是有可能，但是跟著增加的同時，我們的基金規模必須要增資，所以基金規模要增資的同時要編列預算。"],["王委員定宇：當然，這個就是公務部門的政策工具。當你做了市場分析、評估，我們現在投資額度從2017年前到現在投資額已經爬到第二大了，而東南亞4億人口市場是我們所重視的，希望強化政府跟僑外商、僑臺商的連結，那200萬到250萬額度顯然不足以支應某一些案子的時候，根據這個情況，你們提出希望行政院增加基金的規模，然後我們也設定一定的條件，在特定的行業可以進入到更高一級，這樣僑委會也成長了、我們在僑外服務的部分也成長了，否則一旦離開這個額度就脫離你們的手有點可惜，因為很多小雞養大可能是你們的功勞。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["王委員定宇：我的意思是你們可以去評估你們的政策工具夠不夠，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇委員上臺質詢。","接下來由鍾佳濱委員上臺質詢，鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","接下來由徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":234,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-11","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王定宇","徐巧芯","葉元之","陳永康","林憶君","馬文君"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長、經濟部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委員報告「美國對等關稅政策對僑\n台商全球布局之挑戰，及我政府協助僑台商之具體策略與措施」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00004"}}},{"id":"160997","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160997","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e06b071155cc5780605115e7528c8151ef53464f2517af749f0f0fba3fac4fb75495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:42:02 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法務部部長 然後內政部警政署署長 還有抒發部副署長好 副署長委員長我想請問我們這位四位首長我們現在台灣的詐騙問題也不嚴重 先請司法院好了 也不嚴重"},{"start":33.982,"end":58.09,"text":"那個 我們從收案量來看 司法院第一線收案量來看就知道很嚴重非常嚴重 是那我再想請我們的部長 嚴重嗎這個詐騙的確是全民公敵那我們檢察官收案負擔是很嚴重那我們就是強力地掃蕩 也獲得一些的成果警政署"},{"start":59.936,"end":81.472,"text":"現在詐騙是算國內的治安面是算比較嚴重的好 我們來速發部我們同意現在其實確實詐騙是嚴重的你看我們今天很好 我們四位首長的共識 台灣詐騙非常嚴重我先分享一個個案 我再從總體來看我們現在詐騙有多嚴重"},{"start":84.414,"end":112.548,"text":"我最近實際上是挨家挨戶在我的選區送感謝信所以路上我會遇到很多的民眾那很多民眾會跟我去談各式各樣的問題有時候是選民陳情有時候要遇到什麼樣的狀況那我就是一意的傾聽你知道我在路上遇到非常多的其中一個太陽是在抱怨哪一件事情嗎部長你知道嗎 猜猜看請我們的司法院副秘書長"},{"start":113.837,"end":141.839,"text":"就是我剛剛講的題目詐騙詐騙真的很嚴重我遇到一個老太太她看到我就哭了她說她被詐騙了好幾百萬她是追不回來她很難過她說雖然家人其實對她來講那也是個財務很大的一個負擔但家人還算體諒都在安慰她但她覺得自己過不去"},{"start":142.981,"end":168.841,"text":"他覺得他自己心裡過不去然後他說這些錢他也追不回來了這是我遇到的許多個案當中的一個我們的詐騙問題有多嚴重已經變成國恥了吧我想這句話我不知道我們部長認不認同已經是台灣對人民來講詐騙已經是非常痛苦的一件事情了沒錯吧 部長"},{"start":171.182,"end":182.527,"text":"我剛才講說詐騙這個是全民公敵那我想我們經過這一陣子打造司法的一個通過那從源頭的一個行政管制註決了很多的一些詐騙"},{"start":186.949,"end":209.961,"text":"那林貴的這部分也提醒了民眾免受詐騙那另外我們強力掃蕩也獲得一些的成果那我想這部分大家是很努力的來我來看一下 希望說整個一個讓這個詐騙應該現在有個反轉的已經往下的一個跡象了這是我們打造四網非常謝謝您的往下今年三月詐騙的財損是多少錢部長"},{"start":215.492,"end":221.377,"text":"這個財損是要有70億比2月成長了多少2月份大概60億左右到4月變到多少大概75億左右我的數字是76.5億"},{"start":240.137,"end":260.009,"text":"再多了將近7.9%我想是不是把這個趨勢跟大家報告一下就是說我們打炸四法之後經過這個努力之後的一個趨勢那從打炸四法就是去年7月我先跟你講一個最簡單的人民的感受跟現在實際的狀況"},{"start":263.513,"end":277.739,"text":"人民的感受,我在路上走就是感受人民對詐騙真的是深惡痛絕啊,這個感受沒錯吧?沒錯,我覺得還是有努力的空間,來持續再做努力好,謝謝,繼續努力所以我覺得部長,不要鬆懈"},{"start":280.339,"end":305.675,"text":"我剛剛指的保護部啊先聽我講完啦這個沒有鬆懈如果鬆懈的話我們怎麼可能會好啦我改個實惠我改個實惠我改個實惠詐騙157億被害人打到5080人起訴80人這個還押了50幾個齁那這個我想這是整一個打造團隊的一個努力那我想這部分是有目共睹的啦齁那這跟委員做一個報告我跟部長說啊"},{"start":308.939,"end":332.211,"text":"實際上的成績跟人民的感受我剛都講了不管是從財損來講從這邊感受當然我沒有否定我們這司法單位你們對於打詐的一些努力我沒有否定啦可是作為部長我覺得你要有更多的同理心去看看民眾的痛苦就像說今天你去看看我遇到那個民眾的痛苦他痛不痛苦請問部長"},{"start":337.236,"end":366.057,"text":"我想這個我們都是跟民眾的感受是一樣的我請署長好了請署長所以我們才會大力的一個掃蕩那從源頭才跨部會的一個整合心再柔軟一點啦謝謝你這個我們都是有一再的你看我們原請部長你對人民感同身受對啊所以說我們一直感同所以我們一直在偵查中的案件要求要大力的查扣然後呢罪章反反"},{"start":366.517,"end":395.214,"text":"然後彌補被害人的損害因為被害人真的很可憐所以我們在努力的是要求他們一定要調解和解去賠償被害人的這種的一個損失然後當作良心的一個參考所以這個要給被害人的一些的保障所以我們在落實對詐欺危害防治對被害人的一個保障我想這部分當然我們還自己在努力啦我想我對部長真的是很尊敬也尊重嘛對不對"},{"start":396.414,"end":415.092,"text":"你剛剛講話也不打斷你 讓你講 雖然我質詢時間有限可是我今天其實只講一件事情人民的痛苦 我相信署長感受到吧我是站在民眾的同理心上去看待 非常好 謝謝署長要的沒有別的啦 就這份同理心啦"},{"start":416.089,"end":434.384,"text":"那接下來講,我最近看到打詐有些狀況,我也不得不說,我覺得行政部門好像打詐有些矛盾,我想要釐清一下。前政書發部官員在接受侯孟楷委員質詢說,聲稱詐騙廣告無法裁罰,是因為內政部沒有提供資料。"},{"start":435.325,"end":456.365,"text":"那當然刑事局發新聞稿嚴正澄清說截至今年已經通報業者下架3.8萬件詐騙廣告已經匯整移交速發布要求依法懲處我想請問一下速發布刑事局的新聞稿是真的嗎你們兩單位有什麼誤解嗎他們都移交給你們了嗎"},{"start":457.365,"end":481.987,"text":"是的報告委員我想這個部分是有些時間的落差性就是有關3.8萬件的這個部分確實已經都有通知這個網路平台業者去依法下架所以這個部分有在期限內去做下架這個部分沒有裁罰的問題那至於第二個就是說有關這個內政部他移送15件案件給我們的這個部分確實有一點時間的落差"},{"start":484.309,"end":508.661,"text":"在我們上個禮拜五月一號的時候我先跟書發部說啦所以妳也承認有移送嘛是的然後又跟我講一個叫時間差那我只能說妳書發部是狀況外連時間差都沒掌握嗎妳書發部可以在質詢的時候官員可以推給什麼內政部嗎妳如果已經承認是有移送資料啦"},{"start":509.321,"end":516.583,"text":"5月1號的早上9點來我想請教一下我想請教一下請問警政署署長剛剛我們的抒發部官員這樣回答那我想我們未來會再加強互相的這個聯繫跟聯繫上的一個合作的一個關係對啊我覺得你們詐騙彼此比較齊心一點"},{"start":537.159,"end":546.327,"text":"不要遇到責任就開始第一件事想要就先推還先推給自己其他的部會這不是一個政府通力合作的一個做法"},{"start":547.639,"end":555.124,"text":"我要跟各位說啦根據統計2021年到2023年刑警人均移送案件數是從62.69件上升到84.56件那三年工作量暴增35%嘛 署長對不對對 沒錯那也因此造成我們現在全國偵查所人力有14%的預算缺額那基層負擔也非常重嘛 對不對對"},{"start":576.599,"end":600.467,"text":"所以因此其實警察負責的我認為是事後的偵辦跟追查這是主要你們的主力在這個地方嘛沒有錯但是詐騙廣告釣魚網站網路詐騙的源頭管制我必須講書發部這不能推給內政部啦不能推給我們那個警政署啦你們才是職責之所在吧"},{"start":601.59,"end":626.863,"text":"是 跟委員報告 這個部分來講的話其實我們在今年的打炸綱02.0開始上路之後肅發部是防炸的主政機關在這裡面呢 我們也做了許多的一些措施我直接講個結論啦我真的覺得積極度是不夠那我要特別講 我要問一下警政署啊你們現在在追查詐騙的實務上網路廣告管制的層面上有沒有遇到什麼問題希望肅發部來協助的"},{"start":629.437,"end":642.765,"text":"我們現在遇到的問題就是這個廣告商雖然有實名制但是還不斷的重複在下廣告所以源頭一定要止住那如果源頭不止住這些廣告商的話一定要跟他處罰啦"},{"start":644.178,"end":658.897,"text":"一定要處罰 他自己廣告商 炸房條例本來就有規範很清楚他有自主要去做管理 要去做這樣的一個責任但是他不做的話 法已經有規範如果違反這個規範 一定要處罰了"},{"start":660.627,"end":687.779,"text":"來 我們請已經承認你現在是你的主責業務的書發部警政署的聲音聽到了沒有有的 我們其實跟警政署一直都有在做聯繫包括說上個禮拜移送過來的15個案件我們也已經在昨天跟警政署還有司法單位一起來研究這15個案子目前應該有一個案子有疑似資料接錄不實的部分我做個結論啦書發部的工作績 想讓國人來評價"},{"start":689.912,"end":713.448,"text":"但是無論如何不要把責任推給基層員警打詐事後當然去追很重要可是你那事前的洞沒有補齊你是累死員警現在尤其打詐團的那個詐騙技術網路上的做法真的是日新月異你今天靠基層員警去抓事後去抓怎麼抓得完他利率又這麼的大"},{"start":715,"end":736.978,"text":"所以今天速發部要把這個事情放在肩膀上去想想看你今天如果你沒有在源頭上把這些詐騙的一些漏洞把它縮緊一點的話你就累死所有警察也抓不完詐騙啊我每天到地上跑活動我都看到我們的員警在那邊宣導反詐騙為什麼"},{"start":739.741,"end":767.194,"text":"因為詐騙真的很嚴重 幾乎每一個活動沒錯吧 署長每個活動都是我們的警察同仁在宣導反詐騙吧沒有錯幾乎每一個啦所以我都已經熟到變老朋友了啦因為都是警察同仁這邊宣導反詐騙所以我要跟我們政府部門說啊就是說基本上 請你們的合作能夠更緊密啊最後我還是要講一下前面的質詢啦"},{"start":768.564,"end":793.591,"text":"我跟部長說我剛剛看到您的答詢答我還是要講一句話我說司法資源是有限的我今天也真的還是很遺憾我念幾個我們的司法人員在媒體受訪的一個感慨然後給我們部長參考他說有基層檢察官受訪說政治介入司法 招橫太明顯"},{"start":794.953,"end":818.616,"text":"醫生職責守護捍衛追求的司法正義現在已經被總統跟執政的民進黨完全破壞殆盡也有調查員受訪指出在調查局裡只要有一點良心曾經犯過案的調查員都私下感嘆整個調查系統從上到下早已失去風骨睜眼說瞎話只要跟對組織就可能升官發財私下難看讓人感怒不敢言"},{"start":819.156,"end":841.829,"text":"有資深檢察官受訪指出現在好像你隨地吐個痰檢調都可以把你辦成殺人放火重罪檢調司法警政首長全市總統清點的人馬猶如一條鞭作業全部只聽命於一人展現出效忠組織的大動作各地檢調單位還爭相求表現希望讓長官看到也有資深檢察官受訪時說"},{"start":843.61,"end":869.288,"text":"在野黨台南宜蘭台北新北黨部陸續遭到檢調搜索檢察官佛曉初級帶隊抓人講得難聽一點就算是重罪五年以上刑責的販毒被告也只是在家收傳票到庭說明而不實聯署書所涉及的偽造文書涉罪重是五年以下刑責卻要大陣仗搜索逮人羈押押人不成"},{"start":870.169,"end":892.548,"text":"為達目的一再抗告那麼嚴重不符羈押比例原則我知道部長你不會認同這些話啦對我是不會認同因為我在否認所謂的什麼去介入因為我一直在強調說個案我們都不介入不干涉不指導嘛部長我跟你已經相處一年了你回答的標準公式我也知道那這個本來就是沒有去介入嘛我要先跟部長說"},{"start":894.332,"end":919.79,"text":"就像剛剛我問人民的詐騙情感的時候你竟然可以嘟弄了半天連人民的情感你都沒有辦法正面的回應我要跟你講就是說基本上我非常了解部長啊我非常了解部長今天只要是對現在的檢察官對法務部對我們現在執政黨有所指責的部分你都不會放在心上嗎"},{"start":921.365,"end":937.966,"text":"今天但是社會上有一把尺在那裡啦我還是做一個簡單的結論這歷史有兩種比較一個就是垂直一個叫水平垂直比較是從古到今我就直接講嘛你之前問了多少次你們也答不出來有哪一個總統"},{"start":939.825,"end":966.124,"text":"陳水扁 馬英九 蔡英文 李登輝到賴清德有哪一個總統執政任內他的司法檢調全台灣大市搜索在野黨黨部並且關押在野黨黨的幹部只有一個啦 賴清德那第二個今天到底有哪一個總統在任內會去以黨主席身份下令要求全黨公職來發動大罷免"},{"start":968.527,"end":995.085,"text":"李登輝沒有 蔡英文沒有 陳水扁也沒有 馬英九也沒有啊只有我們天眾英明的賴清德總統有啊你是賴清德總統 賴政府嘛 民進黨 清典的官我不會對你有期待太高啦 你也不可能講出忤逆他們的話但是這些鐵蒸蒸 鐵糟糟的歷史事實擺在眼前不管說今天你們怎麼講 我也要講一個今天剛剛中憲委員或王紅委員資訊重點只有一個"},{"start":996.107,"end":1019.233,"text":"作弊當然都要抓 我也不反對作弊要抓可是我看到一個是重如泰山的抓 一個輕如鴻毛的燒我告訴你 人民沒有那麼盲目 看得清清楚楚今天如果說這麼多的一個案件 是這種狀況的話我告訴你 大家看得清楚 最後一個結論講完"},{"start":1024.177,"end":1045.257,"text":"這麼多的力量這麼多的司法資源你放在一個剛剛吳宗憲我已經問過了以前從來不去啟用的所謂的績效的一個方式現在用績效去獎勵去抓了之後你有沒有想過站在後面的警政署啊有沒有想過站在後面的員警啊有沒有想過站在後面的老百姓啊"},{"start":1046.721,"end":1053.26,"text":"如果你今天有說一個陳菊走了問號能夠4小時逮人的效率去辦詐騙"},{"start":1055.63,"end":1082.31,"text":"我剛剛一開始講的 那位太太通力合作 權力掃蕩的喔這個都是因為人民的苦 我們感同身受所以我們才會強力的掃蕩 才會打造司法的通過才會聯合在源頭的管制所以當然我們可以做得更好 我們一直都覺得我們做得不夠部長 你知道我現在質詢你 你也知道我對你都很尊重"},{"start":1083.53,"end":1095.826,"text":"就像你剛剛一講話 你也沒回答我問題 我還是讓你回答我講的是什麼 我講的跟你有矛盾嗎我講一個最簡單的點啊今天司法資源就是有限的啊"},{"start":1096.88,"end":1124.256,"text":"今天我今天遇到那位老太太她被詐騙幾百萬抱著我哭這就是鐵證的人民的現實啊那我剛剛說今天有人說陳菊走了問號在網路上問這句問號四小時逮到人難道不是事實嗎可是今天我說你的辦詐騙效率如果有像逮陳菊走了問號這樣的四個小時的績效的話也許那位老太太就不用抱著我哭啊謝謝你啊"},{"start":1126.687,"end":1127.028,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員 因為待會"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":946,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時42分）有請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署署長，還有數發部副署長。"],["主席：請副秘書長、部長、署長及副署長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早。"],["羅委員智強：我想請問四位首長，現在臺灣的詐騙問題嚴不嚴重？先請司法院回答，請問嚴不嚴重？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我們從收案量來看，從司法院第一線收案量來看就知道很嚴重。"],["羅委員智強：非常嚴重啦！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["羅委員智強：再請問我們的部長，嚴重嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：詐騙的確是全民公敵，我們檢察官收案的負擔是很嚴重，我們就是強力的掃蕩，也獲得一些成果。"],["羅委員智強：警政署。"],["張署長榮興：對，現在詐騙在國內的治安面是算比較嚴重的。"],["羅委員智強：好，數發部。"],["黃副署長雅萍：是，我們同意，現在確實詐騙是嚴重的。"],["羅委員智強：很好，今天我們四位首長的共識，臺灣詐騙非常嚴重。我先分享一個個案，然後再從總體來看我們現在的詐騙有多嚴重。","我最近挨家挨戶在我的選區送感謝信，所以路上會遇到很多民眾，很多民眾會跟我談各式各樣的問題，有時候是選民陳情、有時候則是告訴我遇到了什麼樣的狀況，我就是一一的傾聽，你們知道我在路上遇到非常多的其中一個態樣是在抱怨哪一件事情嗎？部長，你知道嗎？猜猜看，不然請我們司法院副秘書長，就是我剛剛講的題目，詐騙、詐騙真的很嚴重。","我遇到一個老太太，他看到我就哭了，他說他被詐騙了好幾百萬，追不回來，他很難過，其實這對他來講也是財務上很大的負擔，但家人還算體諒，都在安慰他，但他覺得他自己心裡過不去，他說這些錢也追不回來了。這是我遇到的許多個案當中的其中一個，我們的詐騙問題有多嚴重，已經變成國恥了吧？這句話我不知道我們部長認不認同，在臺灣對人民來講，詐騙是非常痛苦的一件事情，沒錯吧，部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我剛才有說詐騙是全民公敵，我們這陣子經由打詐四法的通過，從源頭的行政管制來杜絕、阻絕了很多的詐騙，在臨櫃的部分，也提醒民眾免受詐騙；另外，我們的強力掃蕩也獲得一些成果，我想這部分大家是很努力的……"],["羅委員智強：來，我們來看一下……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們整個作法讓詐騙到現在應該已經有反轉往下的跡象了，這是我們打詐四法跟大家……"],["羅委員智強：好，非常謝謝您的往下。今年3月詐騙的財損是多少錢？部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有關財損的部分，這個是要由那個……"],["羅委員智強：70億啦！請署長回答好了，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：70億。"],["羅委員智強：70億喔！比2月成長了多少？"],["張署長榮興：2月份大概60億左右。"],["羅委員智強：16.6%，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：60億啦！"],["羅委員智強：到4月變成多少？"],["張署長榮興：大概75億左右。"],["羅委員智強：我的數字是76.5億喔！"],["張署長榮興：對，大概75億、76億左右。"],["羅委員智強：好，再多了將近7.9%。"],["張署長榮興：是，不過委員，我是不是能把這個趨勢跟大家報告一下？就是我們打詐四法通過、經過大家的努力之後的趨勢，打詐四法是去年7月開始……"],["羅委員智強：我先跟你講一個最簡單的，人民的感受跟現在實際的狀況，以人民的感受來說，我在路上走就感受到人民對詐騙真的是深惡痛絕，這個感受沒錯吧？"],["張署長榮興：沒錯。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！"],["張署長榮興：我覺得還是有努力的空間，持續再做努力。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝，謝謝你繼續努力啦！所以部長，不要鬆懈啊！我當然知道法務部……先聽我講完啦……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有鬆懈，如果鬆懈的話，怎麼可能臺北地檢偵辦「斬金行動」偵破了全國最大假出金集團……"],["羅委員智強：好啦，我改個詞彙啦！我改個新詞彙啦！我改詞彙啦……"],["鄭部長銘謙：詐騙157億、被害人達到5,080人，起訴80人，還押了五十幾個人，我想這是整個打詐團隊的努力，這部分是有目共睹的，要跟委員做一個報告。"],["羅委員智強：我跟部長說，實際上的成績跟人民的感受，我剛剛都講了，不管從財損來講或是從人民的感受來講，當然我沒有否定我們這些司法單位對於打詐的一些努力，我沒有否定啦！可是作為部長，我覺得你要有更多的同理心，去看看民眾的痛苦，就像我遇到的那個民眾的痛苦，他痛不痛苦，請問部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們都是跟民眾的感受是一樣的，所以……"],["羅委員智強：請署長好了！"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們才會大力的掃蕩，從源頭、跨部會的整合……"],["羅委員智強：心再柔軟一點啦！謝謝你。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們都有一再的……所以我們罪贓返還的……"],["羅委員智強：你看，我連請部長你對人民感同身受你都說不出口！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對啊，我們感同身受，所以我們一直對偵查中的案件要求要大力的查扣……"],["羅委員智強：好啦，我請署長啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：然後罪贓返還，彌補被害人的損害，因為被害人真的很可憐，所以我們努力的要求他們一定要調解、和解，去賠償被害人的損失，然後當作量刑的參考，這個是要給被害人一些保障，所以我們也落實詐欺危害防制對被害人的保障，我想這個部分，未來我們還是會再努力。"],["羅委員智強：部長，我先請署長好不好？我想我對部長真的是很尊敬也尊重嘛，對不對？你剛剛講話也不打斷你，讓你講，雖然我的質詢時間有限，可是我今天其實只講一件事情，人民的痛苦，我相信署長感受到吧？"],["張署長榮興：我是站在民眾的同理心上去看待。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，謝謝署長。要的沒有別的啦，就這份同理心啦！","接下來，我最近看到打詐有些狀況，我也不得不說，我覺得行政部門好像打詐有些矛盾，我想要釐清一下。前陣子數發部官員在接受洪孟楷委員質詢時聲稱詐騙廣告無法裁罰是因為內政部沒有提供資料，結果刑事局發新聞稿嚴正澄清，表示截至今年已經通報業者下架3.8萬件詐騙廣告，且已經彙整移交數發部，要求依法懲處。我想請問數發部，刑事局的新聞稿是真的嗎？你們兩單位有什麼誤解嗎？他們都移交給你們了嗎？"],["黃副署長雅萍：是的，報告委員，我想這個部分是有些時間的落差，有關於3.8萬件的這個部分，確實已經都有通知網路平臺業者去依法下架，所以這個部分有在期限內去做下架，這個部分沒有裁罰的問題。至於第二個，有關內政部移送15件案件給我們這部分，確實有一點時間的落差，在上個禮拜5月1號的時候，其實已經移送，我們確實5月1號……"],["羅委員智強：我先跟數發部說，所以你也承認有移送嘛？"],["黃副署長雅萍：是的。"],["羅委員智強：然後又跟我講一個叫時間差，那我只能說你數發部是狀況外，連時間差都沒掌握嗎？數發部在質詢的時候，官員可以推給內政部嗎？你都已經承認是有移送資料啦！"],["黃副署長雅萍：5月1號早上9點的時候我們收到了。"],["羅委員智強：來，我想請教一下，我想請問警政署署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：剛剛我們數發部的官員這樣回答。"],["張署長榮興：我想我們未來會再加強彼此之間互相聯繫跟合作的關係。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，我覺得你們面對詐騙案彼此之間要齊心一點，不要遇到責任第一件事就想著要先推，還先推給其他的部會，這不是一個政府通力合作的作法。我要跟各位說，根據統計，2021年到2023年刑警人均移送案件數從62.69件上升到84.56件，三年工作量暴增35%，署長，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對，沒錯。"],["羅委員智強：也因此造成我們現在全國偵查佐人力有14%的預算缺額，基層負擔也非常重，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["羅委員智強：其實我認為警察負責的是事後的偵辦跟追查，主要你們的主力在這個地方嘛。"],["張署長榮興：沒有錯。"],["羅委員智強：但是詐騙廣告、釣魚網站、網路詐騙的源頭管制，我必須講，數發部，這不能推給內政部啦！不能推給我們的警政署啦！你們才是職責之所在吧！"],["黃副署長雅萍：是。跟委員報告，就這個部分來講，其實在今年的打詐綱領2.0開始上路之後，數發部是防詐的主政機關，在這裡面我們也推出許多措施來做一些……"],["羅委員智強：我直接講結論，我真的覺得積極度是不夠的。我要特別問一下警政署，你們現在在實務上追查詐騙，網路廣告管制的層面上有沒有遇到什麼問題希望數發部來協助的？"],["張署長榮興：我們現在遇到的問題就是廣告商，雖然有實名制，但還是不斷地重複下廣告，所以源頭一定要止住，如果源頭不止住這些廣告商的話，一定要給他處罰。"],["羅委員智強：非常好。"],["張署長榮興：一定要處罰他，對於自己的廣告商，詐防條例本來就規範得很清楚，他要自主去管理，要負起這個責任，但是他不做的話，法已經有規範，如果違反這個規範一定要處罰。"],["羅委員智強：我們請現在已經承認是你的主責業務的數發部，警政署的聲音聽到了沒有？"],["黃副署長雅萍：有的，我們其實跟警政署一直都有在聯繫，包括上個禮拜移送過來的15個案件，我們也已經在昨天跟警政署還有司法單位一起來研究這15個案子，目前應該有1個案子疑似有資料揭露不實的部分……"],["羅委員智強：我做個結論，數發部的工作績效就讓國人來評價，但是無論如何不要把責任推給基層員警，打詐事後去追當然很重要，可是你這個事前的洞沒有補齊，你是累死員警。尤其現在詐團的詐騙技術，網路上的作法真的是日新月異，它的利潤又這麼大，你今天要靠基層員警事後去抓，怎麼抓得完？所以今天數發部要把這個事情放在肩膀上，去想想看今天如果你沒有在源頭上把這些詐騙的漏洞縮緊一點的話，你就算累死所有的警察也抓不完詐騙啊！我每天到地方跑活動，我都看到我們的員警在那邊宣導反詐騙，為什麼？因為詐騙真的很嚴重，幾乎每一個活動都有我們的警察同仁在宣導反詐騙，署長，沒錯吧？"],["張署長榮興：沒有錯。"],["羅委員智強：幾乎每一個啦！我都已經熟到變成老朋友了，因為都是警察同仁在宣導反詐騙，所以我要跟我們的政府部門說，基本上請你們的合作能夠更緊密。","最後我還是要講一下前面的質詢，我跟部長說，我剛剛看到您的詢答，我還是要講一句話，司法資源是有限的，我今天也真的很遺憾，我唸幾個司法人員在媒體受訪時的感慨給部長參考。有基層檢察官在受訪時說，政治介入司法的鑿痕太明顯，一生職責守護捍衛追求的司法正義，現在已經被總統跟執政的民進黨完全破壞殆盡。","也有調查員受訪指出，在調查局裡只要有一點良心，曾經辦過案的調查員都私下感嘆，整個調查系統從上到下早已失去風骨，睜眼說瞎話，只要跟對主子就可能升官發財，吃相難看，讓人敢怒不敢言。","有資深檢察官受訪指出，現在好像你隨地吐個痰，檢調都可以把你辦成殺人放火般的重罪，檢調、司法、警政首長全是總統欽點的人馬，猶如一條鞭作業，全部只聽命於一人，展現出效忠主子的大動作，各地檢調單位還爭相求表現，希望讓長官看到。也有資深的檢察官受訪時說，在野黨臺南、宜蘭、臺北、新北黨部陸續遭到檢調搜索，檢察官拂曉出擊帶隊抓人，講得難聽一點，就算是重罪五年以上刑責的販毒被告也只是在家收傳票到庭說明，而不實連署書所涉及的偽造文書，最重是五年以下刑責，卻要大陣仗搜索逮人羈押，押人不成，為達目的一再抗告，嚴重不符羈押比例原則。我知道部長你不會認同這些話啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，我是不會認同，因為……"],["羅委員智強：我當然知道你不會認同。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我一再否認所謂的什麼去介入，因為我一直在強調，個案我們都不介入、不干涉、不指導嘛，然後偽……"],["羅委員智強：部長，我跟你已經相處一年了，你回答的標準公式我也知道。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個本來就沒有去介入嘛。"],["羅委員智強：我要先跟部長說，就像剛剛我問人民的詐騙情感的時候，你竟然可以嘟囔了半天，連人民的情感，你都沒有辦法正面回應……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個就是……"],["羅委員智強：我要跟你講的就是，基本上我非常了解部長，今天只要是對現在的檢察官、對法務部、對我們現在的執政黨有所指責的部分……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這種詐騙是很過分的事情，所以才會提醒我們要有強力打詐、掃蕩的決心，然後還給被害人一個公道，這個你不要懷疑。"],["羅委員智強：你都不會放在心上嘛，但是今天社會上有一把尺在那裡啦。","我還是做一個簡單的結論，歷史的比較有兩種，一個是垂直比較，一個是水平比較，垂直比較就是從古到今。我就直接講，我之前問了多少次你們也答不出來，有哪一個總統，包括陳水扁、馬英九、蔡英文、李登輝到賴清德，有哪一個總統在他執政任內，司法檢調全臺灣大肆搜索在野黨黨部並且關押在野黨黨部的幹部？只有一個，賴清德。","第二個，今天到底有哪一個總統在他任內會以黨主席身分下令要求全黨的公職來發動大罷免？李登輝沒有、蔡英文沒有、陳水扁沒有、馬英九也沒有，只有我們天縱英明的賴清德總統有。你是賴清德總統（賴政府、民進黨）欽點的官，我不會對你期待太高，你也不可能講出忤逆他們的話，但是這些鐵崢崢、鐵昭昭的歷史事實擺在眼前。","不管今天你們怎麼講，我也要講一個，今天剛剛宗憲委員或是王鴻薇委員質詢重點只有一個，作弊當然都要抓，我也不反對作弊要抓，可是我看到一個是重如泰山的抓，一個輕如鴻毛的燒。我告訴你，人民沒有那麼盲目，看得清清楚楚，今天如果這麼多的案件是這種狀況的話，我告訴你，大家看得很清楚。","最後我講完一個結論。這麼多的力量、這麼多的司法資源，剛剛吳宗憲委員已經問過了，你放在一個以前從來不去啟用的所謂績效的方式，現在用績效去獎勵、去抓的時候，你有沒有想過站在後面的警政署？有沒有想過站在後面的員警？有沒有想過站在後面的老百姓？如果你今天有一個說「陳菊走了？」能夠4小時逮人的效率去辦詐騙，我剛剛一開始講的那一位太太……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是全力打詐的，我們檢察官檢警調都是通力合作全力掃蕩的，因為人民的苦我們感同身受，所以我們才會強力的掃蕩，才會有打詐四法的通過，才會聯合在源頭管制，當然我們可以做得更好，我們一直都覺得我們做得不夠，所以我們要全力地……"],["羅委員智強：部長，你知道我現在質詢你，我對你都很尊重，就像你剛剛一講話，你也沒回答我問題，我還是讓你回答，我講的是什麼？我講的跟你有矛盾嗎？我講的跟你有矛盾嗎？我講一個最簡單的點，今天司法資源就是有限的啊！我今天遇到那位老太太，他被詐騙幾百萬抱著我哭，這就是鐵錚錚人民的現實啊！那我剛剛說今天有人說「陳菊走了？」在網路上問這句，是問號，4小時逮到人，難道不是事實嗎？今天我說的是你辦詐騙效率如果有像逮「陳菊走了？」這樣的4個小時績效的話，也許那位老太太就不用抱著我哭啊！謝謝你啊！"],["主席：謝謝。吳委員，待會李委員講完我們休息5分鐘，剛剛宣告了，你要先講還是你們要換？"],["吳委員思瑤：可不可以讓我講完再休息？"],["主席：好，可以。這個部分因為吳委員有需要，那我們就改為吳委員結束之後再休息5分鐘。","部長還有副秘，你們回去看一下法官論壇還有檢察官論壇，很多基層的法官、檢察官在抱怨政治辦案，你們回去看一下論壇，那個是外人進不去的封閉式論壇，你們可以看看。","下一位請麥玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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請文化部李海部長好 有請李部長陳委員你好部長好 在本席質詢之前呢針對我們這些又多又繁雜的這是近乎是刁難的解凍報告呢本席這邊要先肯認文化部同仁進行來撰寫解凍報告因為其實文化部的預算呢在我們"},{"start":30.816,"end":48.659,"text":"委員會的山洞之外呢還有被大會山洞的還有被捅山捅洞之後你們分配到的所以這可以說是史上規模最大最複雜的這個預算的山洞那同仁呢真的文化部的同仁已經非常的努力所以我希望在野的同仁可以一起來支持文化部的解凍"},{"start":49.4,"end":53.804,"text":"好 那接下來呢這邊要先關心小公視的經費的這個狀況預算案中文化部對公視的這個補助呢是減列了2300萬並且凍結了25%那再加上呢影視及流行音樂與輔導呢凍結了5000萬文化部的報告裡面有提到說因為預算會影響到小公視那本席這邊先請教說對小公視的影響以及目前節目直播有沒有延宕或是停擺的狀況"},{"start":78.067,"end":86.22,"text":"我想一定會吧我想請董事長報告因為這個部分我們固定的預算如果不能給的話那董事長這邊您先簡單的報告一下"},{"start":89.209,"end":113.525,"text":"謝謝委員的關心目前對小公司的影響是還蠻大的3的部分當然我們就必須要做一點項目的調整那也使得有些計畫沒辦法繼續但最主要是因為動的部分也蠻大的數字那這個部分我們目前有13個新的創的計畫目前為止都必須先暫停然後其他有些在進行中的項目我們都必須要做斟酌的修剪"},{"start":114.345,"end":136.926,"text":"或者是做一些调整这块我们还是蛮希望能够立法院赶快解冻因为这对国家的儿少教育的发展对儿少的这个成长影响很大是是好那这个部分呢因为今天是解冻案我们都希望说可以顺利今天会提到小公事是因为近期有不少的家长跟我分享也且称赞我们有个节目叫做欢迎光临我的牧场"},{"start":137.626,"end":153.398,"text":"裡面就是帶孩子們去認識養殖動物的辛苦以及相關的工作內容很有趣那孩子很喜歡看我們家的小子子也很喜歡但是家長就會擔心啊這麼優質的節目如果相關經費沒有順利解凍是不是就影響相關的這些節目的製播那部長你有看過相關這個影片嗎"},{"start":156.38,"end":174.303,"text":"有你自己有看過其實那個文化的那個節目的製作是很長一段時間他不是臨時要做所以那個山跟洞對我們來講傷害很大因為我們做一半做不下其實這個節目在youtube可以看到所以家長非常的喜歡他可以重複的播放給孩子們看"},{"start":175.504,"end":199.522,"text":"那我想部長你一定了解家長的憂心啦所以我在這邊還是要呼籲說在野黨真的你們要放下這個砍預算的屠刀我們要回歸我們審查預算的專業不要讓這麼優質的兒少節目受到影響影響到兒少的權益喔 謝謝那再來我要針對文資修復的部分本席也非常關心本席的選區鹿港是我國著名的古蹟聚落所以對文資修復的這個需求量非常的大"},{"start":201.604,"end":216.331,"text":"那本席在週一的時候也才到我們鹿港的三三國廟以及西安宮來考察修繕的成果那我相信部長也一定很支持文資修復再利用但是現在目前文資局的文化資產業務被凍結了500萬業務費被凍結了30%那這個都會影響到文資局推動相關的有形的無形的這些文化資產保存的維護的工作"},{"start":226.275,"end":252.524,"text":"這次的考察裡面其實地方的文書工作者以及相關的古蹟的管理者都提出了可以再協助的相關的事項因為你修繕之後古蹟修繕之後就會有彩繪泥作等相關的這個後續的維護需求那當然我們文資的這個修復跟再利用不會有終點所以我希望說替我們鹿港大大小小的文資來爭取我們一定要先支持文資局的解凍這個預算的解凍但是我會希望說"},{"start":253.524,"end":277.54,"text":"以後我們在編列預算的時候是不是可以逐年的來增加對於文資方面這些相關的預算呢請部長您說一下您的想法其實我們始終不夠因為剛剛我在前面報告的時候就是台灣的災情隨時發生各地方上的宮廟也好還有一些古蹟也好他隨時需要我們幫忙"},{"start":278.641,"end":295.603,"text":"然後所以文資局所承擔的那個業務跟修繕是很重的所以這個部分的預算當然是一定要增加所以我剛才一直強調其實文化部的預算為什麼有時候我被刪或者被動會覺得很難過是因為它本來就不太夠"},{"start":296.784,"end":302.148,"text":"就像委員剛剛講它是不夠的我們隨著時間的推移需要我們修上維護的會越來越多經費也越來越龐大所以這個部分我也一再的在每次質詢的時候我會提到說希望對於文資的修復這個部分我們可以更重視可以爭取到更多的預算當然有一些民眾怕人不理解他們以為他說那今年的預算煽動之後不是跟以前的規模一樣嗎但是其實我們對預算的需求是越來越高的我們必須逐年去增加逐年去編列"},{"start":326.405,"end":342.759,"text":"那這個部分也請將來就是我們在編預算的時候在這一塊呢我們能夠多注意然後能夠多支持好那這個部分呢我先就在預算的部分先這樣子我要先講一下現在民眾非常關心而且網路上很熱議的就是關於黃牛茶黃牛泡茶器的問題"},{"start":344.921,"end":369.795,"text":"這是攸關民眾的權益那如果說我們在黃牛票的查緝有擾民的話是不是我們應該改善檢舉的資訊在日前有媒體指出有民眾在社群平台原價讓售演唱會的票卷去遭到文化局要求說明的這樣的事件那衍生出來就是有大家很熱烈的討論那其中有討論到的就是說文化部的這個黃牛檢舉專區資訊填寫的問題"},{"start":374.478,"end":394.077,"text":"這個部分我們資訊體檢要求要寫包含座位等詳細的訊息就是提升檢舉的難度因為現在很多黃牛他在賣票的時候是透過LINE的群組的方式來賣但是他不會透過真正的座位的訊息他會提供一個大概的區間大家自己排自己幾個座位這樣"},{"start":394.757,"end":404.875,"text":"那如果民眾他發現有這樣的情勢他沒有辦法檢討因為他沒有買到票啊他還沒買票的時候他就不知道真正的座位的這個訊息所以這個部分我們文化部是不是可以來研議檢討這個改善這樣的機制"},{"start":407.742,"end":435.715,"text":"其實這個真的是兩難因為如果我們的資訊不足的話我們無法確定他這個檢舉是不是本人然後我們要如何去把它確定資料所以剛剛講的真的是對我們文化部來講是兩難因為資訊不足我們官司把它找到這個確定是坐在哪裡哪個位置我們都沒有辦法但是你會變成說如果你要貼這樣的訊息你沒有拿到票你不知道真正的訊息的話你明明知道有黃牛的情勢你卻沒有辦法去追啊"},{"start":436.823,"end":448.673,"text":"所以這點我們再來改進我來了解一下那你們再研議一下這個如何來改善那當然也有民眾他有反映出說只要在網路上有加價販售這個認定你們現在已經擴及到只要有上架的行為就處罰"},{"start":454.778,"end":463.583,"text":"就票卷沒有賣出也是一樣所以這樣子的做法是不是會延伸催生出檢舉黃牛這個產業的這個隱憂所以對於我們文化部來追這個黃牛票有擾民的這個部分部長您說你們可以來研議看有什麼比較周全一點的方法"},{"start":473.749,"end":489.535,"text":"昨天內政委員會他們有出審設違法對於運輸遊樂票券黃牛票的罰款有提高來打擊黃牛大午化部這邊是不是也可以跟內政部這邊加強合作我們來提升打擊黃牛票這個效率以及精準度"},{"start":490.965,"end":514.854,"text":"是 剛剛講到那個販售的那個定義是 善價陳列 多售多算但是剛剛講到老民跟我們的效率 的確是我們未來要討論的一個部分就是在不老民的情況下 又要很有效率的抓到這個黃牛然後抓到黃牛之後 他本身要罰多少錢譬如最近抓到之後 罰太重的話 他就訴訟"},{"start":516.374,"end":541.547,"text":"他還是跟文化部疏遠所以這一套機制其實是因為其實黃劉漂說真的他可以有這樣的手法去販售他就是可以鑽這些漏洞那我們如果去補這些洞就變成說我們可能要多費心那這邊我還要請教部長關於剛才有很多委員非常關心的粉絲見面會是不是屬於藝文表演的一種型態"},{"start":542.881,"end":568.541,"text":"您覺得我剛才其實一再強調當年我們的文創法裡面加了這一條黃流的票是界定表演藝術 音樂表演一定要正式的有一個表演售票但是屬於剛剛您講的那個粉絲見面會它這個情況是各式各樣會一直變化我們要是把它界定成是表演的話那這個將來是量量是非常大而且是一個灰色地帶"},{"start":570.502,"end":581.152,"text":"因為影視產業的內容是非常多元 它有各種的太陽如果我們很狹隘的去認定 粉絲見面會不屬於藝文表演不屬於文創法的規範我們要如何去抑制黃牛票四處的串行"},{"start":593.863,"end":615.691,"text":"任何應該以民眾來講他們會認為說任何的藝文表演有關的都會可以是適用文創法那部長您現在以你們的想法是覺得說這樣子它不算是表演所以它就不適用文創法嗎是它不算表演因為我剛剛有特別提到這個灰色地帶將來會一直蔓延譬如說見面簽名"},{"start":617.412,"end":640.211,"text":"唱一首歌算不算 唱兩首歌算不算它實在是一個商業行為在圈粉絲的過程中是一個商業行為它要賣票跟表演是不太一樣文化部當年會把黃牛拉進我們的文創法裡面其實已經給我們帶來無限的麻煩我們整個文化部為了抓黃牛這件事情我剛才講過從抓到"},{"start":642.153,"end":657.682,"text":"地方上警察抓到之後他訴怨等等我覺得我們如果再加進這一項其實我可以理解部長您現在講這樣子的文化部的困擾對一個文化推動者一個產業的推動者協助者那在"},{"start":658.903,"end":661.886,"text":"無話推動跟商業行為跟黃牛票之間你們要如何在這個中間找到一個平衡而且又能夠扶植到產業也不會讓這些黃牛有機可乘而傷害到我們產業或傷害到我們民眾的熱情這個部分"},{"start":677.883,"end":700.584,"text":"取捨或者說這個斟酌這個部分當然也需要說文化部的同仁來費心但是其實如果你沒有一個相關的規範相關的一個制度去遏止黃牛票的話其實對產業的傷害也是很大的那這邊我再請教部長您之前有說跟更長管家洽談這個實名制的這個優惠方案我想知道說相關的進度如何"},{"start":702.045,"end":719.296,"text":"我覺得還不錯就是像小巨蛋他就願意如果你願意實名制他就八五折這個部分可能是我們最有進度的部分就是我們不斷的跟這些最大型的產款去談實名制我們文化部也編了預算鼓勵實名制"},{"start":719.656,"end":742.152,"text":"其實已經有願意開始配合你過去好很多而且各場館也知道這個環遊的問題之後他們會主動編列那個優惠像剛剛講小巨蛋就編了85折如果你願意用實名制的話我的租賃給你是85折像這個就算是很大的進步這就很成功了對 因為我們如果不從源頭去解決的話我剛剛講到一方面又要維護這些"},{"start":744.033,"end":754.823,"text":"他個人的個資有沒有然後一方面要去抓他抓到之後他又宿院我們整個文化部真的是為了這個黃牛我們的同仁真的很辛苦所以我們必須從源頭把他杜絕那源頭杜絕就是拜託這些場館"},{"start":759.787,"end":772.178,"text":"市民誌對 這個真的是好 那我也希望文化部這邊繼續努力啦那也是還有就是說我剛剛提到的這個部分就是說關於粉絲見面會 握手會還是簽唱會或是相關這樣的它都有各種的名稱啦那也希望說你們要通盤檢討相關的這個機制我們要納入各種的太陽來考量才能夠真正落實說查其黃牛票好 以上謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":787.042,"end":792.176,"text":"好 謝謝陳秀寶委員 部長請回那我們接下來休息五分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":392,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時38分）謝謝主席，請文化部李遠部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：陳委員你好。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長好。在本席質詢之前，針對你們這些又多又繁雜，近乎是刁難的解凍報告，本席在這邊要先肯認文化部同仁盡心來撰寫解凍報告。因為其實文化部的預算在我們委員會的刪凍之外，還有被大會刪凍的，還有被統刪、統凍之後你們分配到的，所以這可以說是史上規模最大、最複雜的預算刪凍。文化部同仁真的已經非常的努力了，所以我希望在野的同仁可以一起來支持文化部的解凍。","接下來我要先關心小公視的經費狀況，預算案中文化部對公視的補助是減列2,300萬，並且凍結了25%，再加上影視及流行音樂與輔導凍結了5,000萬。文化部的報告裡面有提到預算刪凍會影響到小公視，本席這邊先請教對於小公視的影響，以及目前節目製播有沒有延宕或是停擺的狀況？"],["李部長遠：我想一定會吧！請董事長報告，因為這部分我們固定預算如果不能給的話，節目的……"],["陳委員秀寳：請董事長先簡單報告一下。"],["胡董事長元輝：謝謝委員的關心。目前對小公視的影響還滿大的，刪的部分我們當然必須做一點項目調整，也使得有些計畫沒辦法繼續。最主要是被凍結的數字滿大的，以致目前十三個新創計畫都必須先暫停。至於其他在進行中的項目，有些必須斟酌修減或做一些調整，所以我們滿希望立法院能儘快解凍，因為這對國家兒少教育的發展，對兒少的成長……"],["陳委員秀寳：影響很大？"],["胡董事長元輝：是、是。"],["陳委員秀寳：好。因為今天是處理解凍案，我們都希望審查可以順利。今天之所以會提到小公視，是因為近期有不少家長跟我分享、也稱讚「歡迎光臨我的牧場」這個節目，也就是帶孩子去認識養殖動物的辛苦與相關工作，內容很有趣，孩子很喜歡看，像我們家的小姪子就很喜歡。不過家長會擔心，這麼優質的節目如果相關經費沒有順利解凍，是不是就會影響節目的製播？部長，你有看過節目影片嗎？"],["李部長遠：有。"],["陳委員秀寳：你自己有看過？"],["李部長遠：其實文化節目的製播需要一段很長的時間，並不是臨時做的，所以預算的刪凍對我們來講傷害很大，因為會做到一半做不下去。"],["陳委員秀寳：這個節目在YouTube可以看到，所以家長非常喜歡，可以重複播放給孩子們看。我想部長你一定了解家長的憂心，而我在這邊也要呼籲在野黨，真的要放下砍預算的屠刀，回歸審查預算的專業，不要讓這麼優質的兒少節目受到影響，從而影響到兒少的權益，謝謝。","再來我要針對文資修復的部分，這點本席也非常關心。本席的選區鹿港是我國著名的古蹟聚落，對文資修復的需求量非常大！本席在週一才到鹿港三山國王廟及興安宮考察修繕的成果，相信部長一定也很支持文資的修復與再利用。但目前文資局的文化資產業務被凍結了500萬，業務費被凍結了30%，這些都會影響到文資局所推動有形、無形的與文化資產保存相關的維護工作。這次考察時，地方文史工作者及古蹟管理者都提出了需要再協助的事項，因為古蹟修繕之後會有彩繪、泥作等後續的維護需求。當然，文資的修復與再利用不會有終點，所以我希望能替鹿港大大小小的文資來爭取，並支持文資局的預算解凍。不過我也希望以後在編列預算時，是不是可以逐年增加與文資有關的預算呢？請部長說一下想法。"],["李部長遠：其實我們的預算始終不夠！剛剛我在報告時說過，臺灣隨時會有災情發生，地方上的宮廟或古蹟隨時需要我們的幫忙，因此文資局所承擔的業務跟修繕工作是很重要的，所以這部分的預算當然一定要增加。我剛剛一直強調，為什麼文化部的預算被刪或者被凍，我會覺得很難過？是因為本來就不太夠，就像委員剛才講的，是不夠的！"],["陳委員秀寳：隨著時間推移，需要修繕與維護的會越來越多，經費會越來越龐大，所以在每次質詢時我會一再提到，希望對於文資的修復可以更重視，可以爭取到更多的預算。當然，有些民眾不理解，以為就算今年的預算被刪凍，但規模不是跟以前一樣嗎？其實我們對預算的需求只會越來越高，甚至必須逐年增加，逐年編列。因此，將來在編預算時就這一塊能多注意、多支持。預算部分就先這樣子，我現在要講民眾非常關心，且網路上很熱議的查緝黃牛票的問題，畢竟攸關民眾權益。","在查緝黃牛票時如果擾民的話，是不是應該改善檢舉資訊？日前有媒體指出，有民眾在社群平臺原價讓售演唱會票券，卻遭到文化局要求說明，引起大家熱烈的討論，其中有討論到文化部黃牛檢舉專區資訊填寫的問題。據悉，資訊填寫包含座位等詳細訊息，這提升了檢舉難度，因為現在很多黃牛透過LINE群組賣票，並不會透露真正的座位訊息，只會提供大概的區間，大概第幾排第幾個座位之類的。一旦民眾發現有這樣的情事時，其實是無法檢舉的，因為沒有買到票！既然沒有買到票，就不知道真正的座位訊息！所以文化部是不是可以研議、檢討並改善這樣的機制？"],["李部長遠：其實這真的是兩難！因為如果資訊不足的話，我們就無法確定是不是由本人所檢舉的，以及如何去確定資料，所以這對我們文化部來講真的是兩難，畢竟資訊不足，甚至光確定坐在哪裡、在哪個位置都沒有辦法。"],["陳委員秀寳：但如果要填寫這樣的訊息，在沒有拿到票的情況下，就不知道真正的訊息為何。明明知道有黃牛票，卻沒有辦法去追！"],["李部長遠：是，這點我們再來改進，我來了解一下，因為……"],["陳委員秀寳：拜託研議一下看如何來改善。"],["李部長遠：好，是。"],["陳委員秀寳：也有民眾反映說，只要在網路上有加價販售的……因為你們現在已經擴及到只要有上架的行為就算觸法，即使票券沒有賣出也一樣。所以這樣的做法是不是會衍生出檢舉黃牛產業的隱憂？對於文化部追黃牛票.擾民這點，部長說可以研議看有什麼比較周全的方法，日前內政委員會初審社維法修正草案，提高運輸、有料票券的黃牛票罰鍰，以打擊黃牛，文化部是不是可以跟內政部加強合作，提升打擊黃牛票的效率及精準度？"],["李部長遠：是，講到販售定義，凡上架、陳列、兜售都算；至於擾民跟效率，這的確是我們未來需要討論的，也就是在不擾民的情況下，又要很有效率抓到黃牛，且在抓到黃牛之後要罰多少錢？譬如以最近抓到的來說，如果黃牛覺得罰太重就會提起訴訟，甚至向文化部提起訴願，所以這一套機制其實是……"],["陳委員秀寳：其實黃牛之所以有這樣的販售手法就在於鑽漏洞！所以我們如何去補這些漏洞？我想可能要多費心……"],["李部長遠：是，對。"],["陳委員秀寳：我還想請教部長，這是剛才很多委員都非常關心的，也就是粉絲見面會是不是屬於藝文表演的一種型態？您覺得呢？"],["李部長遠：我剛才一再強調，當年文化部把黃牛拉進文創法，並界定表演藝術、音樂表演一定要有正式的表演與售票。至於您講到的粉絲見面會的情況則各式各樣，且會一直變化，若將其界定為表演，那麼將來的量會非常大，而且這是一個灰色地帶！"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，影視產業的內容非常多元，有各種態樣，如果很狹隘地認定粉絲見面會不屬於藝文表演，不在文創法規範的話，試問我們要如何抑制黃牛票的四處竄行？以民眾來講，會認為任何與藝文表演有關的都適用文創法，但現在部長的想法卻覺得不算表演，所以不適用文創法？"],["李部長遠：是，不算表演！我剛才有特別提到，這是一個灰色地帶，將來會一直蔓延。譬如見面、簽名、唱一首歌算不算？唱兩首歌算不算？這其實是一種商業行為，在圈粉絲過程中的商業行為，跟賣票表演不太一樣。文化部當年把黃牛拉進文創法規範，其實已經給我們帶來無限的麻煩，整個文化部為了抓黃牛……我剛才講過，地方警察抓到黃牛之後，他可以提訴願等等，如果再加進這一項……"],["陳委員秀寳：部長講到文化部的困擾，我可以理解。對於一個文化推動者，一個產業的推動者、協助者來說，在文化推動、商業行為跟黃牛票之間，你們要如何在中間找到平衡且能夠扶植到產業，也不會讓黃牛有機可趁，進而傷害到產業或民眾的熱情。其中的取捨或者說斟酌，當然也需要文化部同仁來費心，但是如果你沒有一個相關的規範、制度去遏止黃牛票的話，對產業的傷害也是很大的。","我再請教部長，您之前說跟各場館洽談實名制的優惠方案，我想知道相關的進度如何？"],["李部長遠：我覺得還不錯，像小巨蛋，如果你願意實名制就給八五折，這可能是我們最有進度的部分，不斷地跟最大型的場館去談實名制，文化部也編了預算鼓勵實名制。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實已經有願意開始配合的場館。"],["李部長遠：比過去好很多，而且各場館也知道黃牛的問題之後，他們會主動編列優惠，像剛剛講的小巨蛋，如果你願意用實名制的話，租賃是給你八五折，像這個就算是很大的進步。"],["陳委員秀寳：這就很成功啦！"],["李部長遠：對，因為我們如果不從源頭去解決的話，我剛剛講到，一方面又要維護個人的個資，一方面要去抓他，抓到之後他又訴願，整個文化部真的是為了黃牛，我們的同仁真的很辛苦，所以必須從源頭把它杜絕，源頭杜絕就是拜託這些場館他們在……"],["陳委員秀寳：實名制。"],["李部長遠：對，這個真的是……"],["陳委員秀寳：我也希望文化部繼續努力。還有我剛剛提到關於粉絲見面會、握手會、簽唱會或是相關各種名稱的活動，希望你們要通盤檢討相關的機制，要納入各種的態樣來考量，才能真正的落實查緝黃牛票。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：以上，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員，部長請回座。","接下來休息5分鐘。","休息（10時51分）","繼續開會（11時00分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","現在邀請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-10","speakers":["林宜瑾","郭昱晴","劉書彬","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","柯志恩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳秀寳","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","葉元之","范雲","蘇巧慧","黃捷","陳培瑜","邱志偉"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算解凍案49案","agenda_id":"1144601_00005"}}},{"id":"160995","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160995","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e068fbba8955f4e9a7e1c005f00a3db85f75b504e8793ebcb11048316b8811dac4f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:42:54 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art":73.486,"end":96.67,"text":"不會的委員你知道台灣民主化三十多年來我們非常重視民主自由跟人權所以言論自由跟採訪自由跟所有相關的人身相關自由我們都非常的重視那對於新聞志工新聞志工雖然也是志工但是我們也是有一些基本的訓練的原則所以並不會進行所謂的言論審查"},{"start":101.431,"end":115.285,"text":"或者是對於他人僑團的各種旗幟進行這個修正那這裡面我所了解是當時他們是他們其實彼此都是好朋友他其實只是這是一個小誤會他只是想試試他的修圖能力然後就傳給兩個朋友看結果這兩個朋友呢就以為他這個是要登出來的東西因此就"},{"start":123.953,"end":150.845,"text":"造成了一些誤會但事實上並沒有公開這個照片從頭到尾沒有公開而且昨天已經上稿的東西呢還是照原來的東西登出來完全沒有東西被修改過所以在經過民主化那麼久之後因為我為什麼講同學會同窗會跟同鄉會因為我自己的親人過去也是在在我媽媽那一邊的親人大概是在他研究所博士之後就出國然後就沒有回來因為他是比較支持台灣主體意識"},{"start":152.125,"end":176.42,"text":"支持台灣獨立等等台派社團包括他參加一些北美教授協會等等當然那個時代跟現在這個時代那個時代是比較威權統治的時代有很多一些旗幟什麼基本上都不能夠允許來在我們政府官方的網站上面出現我想請教既然委員長有提到這個FAPA的部分"},{"start":176.94,"end":199.882,"text":"未來假設包含FAPA會員那自行攜帶象徵台灣主體意識的這些旗幟我們會不會審查不會這個其實都是大家的自主的意志嘛跟他的言論自由更何況這些都是發生在第三國在台灣已經受到言論保障那我相信在海外更是應該有這個尤其在民主國家"},{"start":200.362,"end":216.193,"text":"所以我特別也是藉這個機會跟我們這個陳情的好朋友說不用擔心僑委會還有我們不管是在第三地或者是在本國的土地上面他們的言論自由是百分之百受到保障的是的不會有"},{"start":216.533,"end":226.739,"text":"未來也不會有什麼這種圖改的 因為這事是完全就是就是misunderstanding嘛 就誤會沒有說我們會審查不讓你上去 不是這個意思的 是 剛才委員長也是這個意思不過這個個人之間的這個小誤會呢 也是提醒我們讓我們更加注意說每一年這個全球分布六大洲的新聞志工要如何的讓他們更精進那採訪的內容能夠忠實於這個被採訪的對象"},{"start":242.489,"end":259.033,"text":"也就是說我們僑務工作是不會排斥政治立場我們不會帶著任何政治的眼光看待這些事情但是如果說有傷害國家利益的比方說去鼓吹說是台灣是中國的一部分這個我們當然是有一定的堅持這個是不可以當然這個既定的國家立場這個國家利益這個還是既定立場"},{"start":262.194,"end":271.041,"text":"還是要有一定的但是基本上除此之外在言論自由的保障之下只要不傷害國家利益我們不會事先審查言論自由是大家要互相尊重而且這也有相關的規範但是言論自由不包含對他人的惡性攻擊或者是人身攻擊等等所以這些我想我們還是有法律的依據在規範所以我們還是強調就是教育會"},{"start":287.014,"end":308.848,"text":"他的公告原則沒有這個自我審查沒有過度干預那他也不是沒有說什麼不涉及政治因為其實每一個東西這憲法保障人民的自由包含我們對政治的表述這個是很基本的所以這個部分我們也要藉此機會跟所有這個在美國的這些好朋友們來講說這是言論自由我們沒有事先審查不過還是另外一部分就是"},{"start":313.131,"end":327.529,"text":"歷史的這個看法我們的台橋其實不僅是台橋因為現在除了台橋台派中華民國派等等那他們都是為了台灣的整體利益但我有不同的看法那只是說我們是希望說未來包含委員長能夠"},{"start":329.056,"end":343.243,"text":"多一些座談多一些機會整合我們不同意見在國外的時候意見不同當然就是比方說我們有支持台灣獨立的跟陳委員報告其實這個對我來說我來僑委會服務已經五年多了我是非常這個能夠"},{"start":346.064,"end":363.793,"text":"面對這種同一個場裡面大家有不同的立場有不同的看法但是我們只是一個平台這個平台是提供大家互動跟討論的一個空間那在這個過程當中我們確保每一個人他都有表達的自由也不會因此呢受到貼標籤化的這個做"},{"start":365.874,"end":391.314,"text":"那我們當然是用對話取代敵視 用對話取代敵視那同時我為什麼今天要特別在講這個的原因就是因為過去這個台派在美國也好他有他的歷史的傷痕在的因為過去有長時間我們轉型正義還沒有說完整喔長時間在美國的時候都會擔心說這個人一直在跟我是不是這個職業學生確實以前很多台派社團被列為黑名單職業學生會不會說要回報回去等等"},{"start":392.014,"end":412.072,"text":"他們會有這樣子的看法我們會有這樣子的看法我們會有這樣的擔心也是因為這是歷史的累積起來的這也是轉型正義的一部分所以我們今天為什麼在這邊告訴大家說我們不會事先審查過去不會 未來也不會的原因就是說因為有這些歷史的傷痕在那歷史的傷痕是需要時間去把它療癒的嘛這也是轉型正義很重要的一部分不然為什麼我們現在講的是這個交通委員會"},{"start":412.913,"end":434.06,"text":"有台橋台橋還有華僑這個華僑是中華民國的華僑不是中華人民共和國的華僑這個我們要分清楚也就是說我們正在把包括性的不斷的擴大就是說我們為什麼包含總統他會提到這些台灣中華民國的這些歷史為什麼會有不同族群的人在各個不同的時代一個一個進來從這個日本時代過後然後這個中華民國的時代到我們台灣"},{"start":439.042,"end":460.749,"text":"到現在一步一步的這樣子往前進的時候我們不可以就是辣掉說不同的族群因為這個族群是不斷的在擴大的我們是更加的包容性的所以說這個時間點我們特別要強調說台灣的多元的標誌還有台灣的言論自由這是我們跟中華人民跟俄國不同的地方"},{"start":461.309,"end":481.7,"text":"所以我們是中華民國的僑務委員會也是在把我們之間的分得很清楚不是在台灣內部而是把中華民國台灣我們包裹成一個共同利益共同主體的這一個部分所以這一次一些僑務委員那有特別提到說有一些僑領突囂台獨起沒有這回事沒有這個是誤會以後未來"},{"start":484.722,"end":490.359,"text":"一樣就是說能夠把那個言論自由經營期拿出去也沒關係是好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":293,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時42分）你好，我們請委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：陳委員早安。"],["陳委員冠廷：委員長早。委員長，我剛剛看到有一些僑務相關的同仁反映芝加哥臺灣同鄉會、同學會還有同窗會等等都有類似的問題，就是他們在參加活動的時候可能會自行攜帶他們認為對臺灣有幫助的旗幟，但是在分享有這些旗幟的照片時可能會有一些事後的審查，那我今天沒有特別講是同鄉會、同窗會還是同學會的原因就是因為我不想針對個案，我是希望更廣泛的來請教委員長。請問現在我們有沒有所謂的審查機制？就是在僑委會舉辦一些活動的時候，我們對於一些跟政治比較相關的活動會不會事先審查，看可不可以讓它po到網路上之類的？"],["徐委員長佳青：不會的，委員，你知道臺灣民主化三十多年來，我們非常重視民主、自由跟人權，所以對言論自由、採訪自由跟所有的人身相關自由我們都非常的重視，那新聞志工雖然也是志工，但是我們也是有一些基本的訓練原則，所以並不會進行所謂的言論審查或對於僑團的各種旗幟進行修正。據我了解，他們彼此都是好朋友，其實這是一個小誤會，他只是想試試他的修圖能力，然後就傳給兩個朋友看，結果這兩個朋友就以為他這個是要登出來的東西，因此就造成了一些誤會，但事實上並沒有公開，這個照片從頭到尾沒有公開，而且昨天已經上稿的東西，還是照原來的東西登出來，完全沒有東西被修改過。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以在經過民主化那麼久之後，我為什麼講同學會、同窗會和同鄉會，因為我媽媽那一邊的親人，他大概是在研究所、博士之後就出國，然後就沒有回來，因為他是比較支持臺灣主體意識、支持臺灣獨立等等。"],["徐委員長佳青：是，臺派社團。"],["陳委員冠廷：包含他參加一些北美教授協會等等，當然那個時代與現在這個時代不同，那個時代是比較威權統治的時代，有很多旗幟基本上都不能夠允許在我們政府官方的網站上面出現，我想請教，既然委員長有提到FAPA的部分，未來假設包含FAPA會員自行攜帶象徵臺灣主體意識的這些旗幟，我們會不會審查？"],["徐委員長佳青：不會，這個其實都是大家的自主意志和言論自由，更何況這些都是發生在第三國，在臺灣已經受到言論保障，我相信在海外更是應該有這個保障，尤其是在民主國家。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以我也特別藉這個機會，跟我們陳情的好朋友說不用擔心，僑委會還有不管是在第三地或者是在本國的土地上面，他們的言論自由是百分之百受到保障的，未來也不會有什麼塗改，因為這次完全就是misunderstanding、誤會，沒有，我們會審查，不讓你上去，不是這個意思，剛才委員長也是這個意思嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：是，個人之間的小誤會也是提醒我們，讓我們更加注意每一年全球分布六大州的新聞志工，要如何地讓他們更精進──採訪的內容能夠忠實於被採訪的對象。"],["陳委員冠廷：也就是我們的僑務工作不會排斥政治立場。"],["徐委員長佳青：不會，我們不會帶著任何政治的眼光看待這些事情。"],["陳委員冠廷：但是如果有傷害國家利益的，比方鼓吹臺灣是中國的一部分，這個我們當然是有一定的堅持，這個是不可以的。"],["徐委員長佳青：當然，既定的國家立場……"],["陳委員冠廷：國家安全和國家利益還是既定的立場，還是要有一定的堅持。"],["徐委員長佳青：沒錯。"],["陳委員冠廷：但是基本上除此之外，在言論自由的保障之下，只要不傷害國家利益，我們不會事先審查，大概是這樣的意思。"],["徐委員長佳青：言論自由是大家要互相尊重，而且這也有相關的規範，但是言論自由不包含對他人的惡性攻擊或者是人身攻擊等等，所以這些我想我們還是有法律的依據在規範。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒錯，所以我們還是強調僑委會的供稿原則沒有自我審查、沒有過度干預，沒有什麼不涉及政治，因為其實憲法保障人民的自由，包含我們對政治的表述，這個是很基本的，所以這個部分，我們也要藉此機會跟所有在美國的這些好朋友們說，這是言論自由，我們沒有事先審查。"],["徐委員長佳青：我們也會提醒我們所有的志工。"],["陳委員冠廷：不過，另外一部分就是歷史的看法，我們的臺僑其實不僅僅是臺僑，因為現在除了臺僑、臺派、中華民國派等等，他們都是為了臺灣的整體利益，當然會有不同的看法，只是我們希望未來包含委員長能夠多一些座談、多一些機會整合不同意見，在國外的時候會有意見不同，比方，支持臺灣獨立等等……"],["徐委員長佳青：跟陳委員報告，其實對我來說，我來僑委會服務已經五年多了，我是非常能夠面對這種同一個場合裡面，大家有不同的立場、有不同的看法，但是我們只是一個平臺，這個平臺是提供大家互動跟討論的空間，在這個過程當中，我們確保每一個人都有表達的自由，也不會因此受到貼標籤化的狀況。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們當然是用對話取代敵視。"],["徐委員長佳青：對，儘量大家尋找共識。"],["陳委員冠廷：為什麼我今天要特別講這個的原因，就是因為過去臺派在美國也好，他有他的歷史傷痕在，因為過去很長一段時間，我們的轉型正義還沒有完整，長時間在美國的時候都會擔心這個人一直在跟我……是不是職業學生。"],["徐委員長佳青：確實以前很多臺派社團被列為黑名單。"],["陳委員冠廷：很多職業學生會不會要回報回去等等，所以我們會有這樣子看法，我們會有這樣的擔心，也是因為這是歷史的累積起來，這也是轉型正義的一部分，所以我們今天為什麼要在這邊告訴大家，我們不會事先審查，過去不會，未來也不會的原因就是因為有這些歷史的傷痕，歷史的傷痕是需要時間去把它療癒的，這也是轉型正義很重要的一部分。包含為什麼我們現在講的是僑務委員會有臺僑還有華僑，華僑是中華民國的華僑，不是中華人民共和國的華僑，這個我們要分清楚，也就是我們正在把包括性不斷地擴大，為什麼總統會提到臺灣、中華民國的這些歷史，為什麼會有不同族群的人在各個不同的時代一個一個進來，從日本時代過後，中華民國的時代到臺灣到現在，一步一步這樣子往前進的時候，我們不可以漏掉不同的族群，因為這個族群是不斷地在擴大的，我們是更加有包容性的。所以這個時間點我們特別要強調臺灣的多元標誌，還有臺灣的言論自由，這是differentiate我們和中華人民共和國不同的地方，我們是中華民國的僑務委員會，也是把我們之間分的很清楚，不是在臺灣內部，而是把中華民國臺灣包裹成一個共同利益、共同主體的部分，所以這一次有一些僑務委員有特別提到，有一些僑領塗銷臺獨旗，沒有這回事。"],["徐委員長佳青：沒有。"],["陳委員冠廷：這個是誤會。"],["徐委員長佳青：純粹是誤會。"],["陳委員冠廷：以後、未來一樣，人人都有言論自由，鯨魚旗拿出去也沒關係？"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員的質詢。","接下來由王定宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":234,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-11","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王定宇","徐巧芯","葉元之","陳永康","林憶君","馬文君"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長、經濟部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委員報告「美國對等關稅政策對僑\n台商全球布局之挑戰，及我政府協助僑台商之具體策略與措施」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00004"}}},{"id":"160994","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160994","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e06d170354ec0769bd61c005f00a3db85f75b504e8793ebcb11c93dc069a48e80b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:30:00 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那麼也請賴長次謝謝委員長 我特別看了一下 委員長早安早安 這個特別看了一下報告喔 是那麼特別提到的是有關於這個Made by Taiwan我覺得這個想法很好 那麼也很開心在這個報告當中有看到事實上是從2021年我們就開始做了"},{"start":31.095,"end":45.762,"text":"那麼我們知道對於這個對等關稅那麼現在目前本席特別整理了一下我們幾個新南向的台商他們事實上在越南、泰國、印尼、印度、菲律賓跟新加坡都各自建立了所謂的產業聚落因為這是我們多年推動新南向非常重要的成果可是也同樣的看到了我現在旁邊寫的這個數字46%、37%、32%、27%這個不是產業聚落的%數"},{"start":57.949,"end":67.461,"text":"這是對等關稅是的沒錯那麼我們看到尤其是像在越南我們有這個消費性電子跟紡織的重要聚落但是它被課以46%的對等關稅其實這個一出來之後許多人都關心我們新南向的台商的狀況那麼"},{"start":75.111,"end":83.875,"text":"我們現在同時提出了Made by Taiwan是不是可以有助於幫助他們可以在面對未來在這些他們住在國的國家的這個所謂被課等對等關稅那麼有沒有辦法透過相關的僑委會的協助或是經濟部現在對美的談判能夠把Made by Taiwan而不是Made in Taiwan能夠結合在一起"},{"start":101.624,"end":113.728,"text":"那麼在這個部分喬委會有沒有進一步的想法跟委員報告我們事實上從2021年開始做這個海外台商精品獎主要目的就是說有鑒於我們台商從90年代開始的對外投資還有企業的跨國移出越來越頻繁規模也越來越大因此我們認為說如何讓我們的台商不要只有單純做代工"},{"start":129.132,"end":157.929,"text":"這樣的一個角色算毛三道四的這種博麗所以呢是希望透過這個模式來鼓勵台商可以建立自由品牌那當然這一次因應美國的對等關稅確實是全球都有受到影響但每一個國家受的影響程度會不一樣以這個菲律賓來說他是相對輕的他只有17到18%那所以他就會覺得說大家都被課對等關稅很重的時候那反而是他的機會"},{"start":158.809,"end":164.373,"text":"所以他可以得到的訂單就增加他會得到的投資也會增加所以我們的台商在彼此串聯之間我們會去想辦法協助他們讓他們知道說等到所有的談判就定位以後各自國家的差異性在哪裡他們如何選擇對他們相對有利的聯合廠商去進行相關的生產總之只要不是在台灣建廠的製造我們都把它稱為"},{"start":188.769,"end":215.087,"text":"Made by Taiwan就是台灣精品對就台灣精品但概念上來說呢在研發或設計上面基本上還是鼓勵他們設在台灣有一個辦公室能夠在台灣接單那製造在海外最好也能夠直接到市場端去設廠製造所以當然也包括在美國所以確實最近也有不少我們北美洲的台商跟"},{"start":215.788,"end":220.794,"text":"亞洲的台商最近都是非常密集的在交流有在談這些可能的跨界跨州投資的狀況所以說我也要詢問一下我們經濟部的賴長士長士我覺得這個透過喬委會今天的報告所看到的這個"},{"start":233.01,"end":244.493,"text":"May by Taiwan也許是一些我們過去在推動新南向的時候這些已經在新南向國家設廠的接廠商可以找到另外一條出路啦因為說實話要把廠移走或者是說要寄予說他們住在國的這個談判其實也不知道是什麼樣一個狀況雖然台灣有很好消息傳來是說我們在首波第一輪我們就完成了談判"},{"start":258.837,"end":262.358,"text":"那麼美白台灣在這個部分就經濟部來講有沒有可能在這個部分可以幫我們的在新南向國家在設廠的這些台商們找到一個新的契機至少他們不用被潰像越南啊或者是泰國印尼這樣被課這麼高的這樣一個關稅那麼如果就剛剛徐委員長所說的還是希望他們要有一個辦公室設在台灣"},{"start":285.584,"end":312.917,"text":"那麼在這樣的狀況底下他就可以成為台灣精品而不是只是所謂的台灣的代工那麼目前這樣的想法有沒有可行那也有機會幫我們只是單獨設廠的台商做解套是的我們一直用這個方向以例如台灣行銷全世界比如說剛剛委員長所講的菲律賓委令那菲律賓剛剛也有提到因為他在這個關稅裡面稍微衝擊比較小是"},{"start":313.957,"end":338.28,"text":"我們經濟部會在九月也會辦台灣的所謂的精品的展在菲律賓這個地方希望藉由如此來促進我們在地的台商甚至是我們現在在台灣的產業去發展這是第一第二個部分事實上我們在這次的特別條例裡面特別有提到屬於經濟部的面向有一個是多元拓銷"},{"start":339.341,"end":368.587,"text":"那多元拓銷的這個方式的話我們希望說引領我們台灣的廠商可以行銷全世界那這個一直以來是我們努力的方向好 這個所謂在經濟部所辦的這個台灣精品啦跟這個橋尾會所現在推動的Made by Taiwan我想都是很好的一個角度跟方向但是我又怕兩者之間變成有競爭關係但不論如何本席也特別去做了一些整理"},{"start":369.267,"end":371.229,"text":"從2021年辦第一屆到去年2024年辦第三屆我們發現這個報名的件數跟廠商好像沒有往上升但是我自己認為啦這個也有一個可能啦因為原本我們可能在這個新南向國家所設立"},{"start":387.547,"end":407.871,"text":"非代工而是自有自創品牌的就這麼多但是現在也許是一個契機我想問一下許委員長或經濟部既然如此的話要不要趁這個機會其實要好好的宣傳跟行銷一下因為我們現在做台灣的自由品牌反而會比代工來划算尤其是像在越南或者是泰國這種相對的在美國的對等關稅比較高的這個國家"},{"start":413.413,"end":416.396,"text":"確實林委員所鼓勵的方向是一個可以思考的點那我們當然也是在等這個對美的談判有一個比較清楚的結論出來的時候那因應著這個相關的結論我們再來規劃後續輔導這些"},{"start":431.149,"end":436.43,"text":"在南向國家原來在做代工的這些製造業看他們可以怎麼樣配合台灣的這個談判的結果呢來促進他們這個自由品牌的建構然後走比較高端的市場甚至是分散市場的概念除了美國市場包括歐洲歐盟市場或者是在亞洲市場的拓展至少在中東市場也是一個非常大的區塊東協市場也有相當的人口數量那這些都是我們積極要想"},{"start":461.635,"end":476.701,"text":"把made by Taiwan當作是一個可以附加價值提高這樣的一個核心概念那所有的台商呢就均等都會受惠所以在解決這個對等關稅的談判之後我想我們會配合這個核心概念來持續的輔導我們在不同國家的這個相關企業的投資案"},{"start":481.787,"end":508.66,"text":"我也要請這個嘗試回應一下因為我自己認為這個概念很好但是不要說僑委會做僑委會的經濟部做經濟部的這樣會很可惜不會不會我們一直都有密切的聯繫包括跟國發會跟經濟部我們都是台灣team最後跟主席借一分鐘就好本席也有關心到當然現在就是我們新南向拚經濟啦這個子女的教育也要兼顧喔當然本席知道這個有關於台校跟橋校不一樣那麼橋校才是"},{"start":511.562,"end":526.282,"text":"歸僑委會來管喔但是我在今年的4月23號的時候也幫我們東南亞四所台灣學校來爭取有關的補助那主要的原因當然還是因為中國的台灣學校這個每一位學生補助是三萬五那東南亞其實只有一萬"},{"start":526.883,"end":537.951,"text":"但是我當然知道面對這個才化法修正115年之後中央包括各個部會都有30%要直接撥到地方去但是它直接影響到的會是跟國際有關跟地方無關尤其是在全球的這些學校不論其實不論是橋校或台商學校都會受到影響那麼我想要請徐委員長當面臨這樣的衝擊的時候有沒有思考一下就是"},{"start":554.864,"end":578.781,"text":"我其實雖然說在這個跟教育部的協調教育部是說如果預算足夠之下教育部會考慮把我們東南亞四個台灣學校的學生的補助從一萬提升到一萬五多個五千塊但是這個言下之意也形塑出來的是那麼其他的橋校也可能受到預算的波及可能因為才化法的關係那麼會不會影響到這個我們橋委會補助這些不論是橋校或者是其他學校的預算"},{"start":584.725,"end":587.226,"text":"跟委員報告我們今年度因為這個總預算審查的時候針對業務費總體刪除了10%那當然這個10%當中也包括了這個橋校的部分所以確實我們在某些橋校的補助上面今年度都會多少會降低一些那針對台校的部分呢台校因為在東南亞有4所"},{"start":608.995,"end":617.278,"text":"規模量體都不是很大而且非常熱門所以排在waiting list的學生很多所以無論有無補助我們的台商還有我們的台橋還是會想辦法優先要把孩子送去那邊讀書因為他們孩子將來都想要回到台灣繼續升學"},{"start":624.42,"end":633.712,"text":"那不過呢我們當然是樂見於說在預算足夠的狀況下可以給他們多少多一些的資源跟補助而且我們對這些學校過去成立的時候是教育部出50%僑委會出50%合資讓他們成立的學校"},{"start":641.442,"end":661.5,"text":"那一般的橋校事實上他們都是自給自足我們只是補助他們比方說給他們教材給他們師資的培訓還有一些這個自聘教師的終點補助等等那這部分我們確實有受影響所以也不會員跟委員報告我預算不夠所以我這一年都要去找很多廠商募款"},{"start":663.181,"end":678.626,"text":"好 那麼其實說到補助可能不是學費或者是學生個人但是本席也找到確實在113年我們在胡志明市的台灣學校或是似水或是雅加達都有活動的補助但是我發現這個活動補助其實真的很少耶250塊美元的話換算大概都是10萬不到"},{"start":682.287,"end":698.012,"text":"我也覺得因為這些都是像漢字文化啦或者是這個華語文的文化我覺得它其實這個是橋校或是台校最重要的這個部分如果未來預算許可的話我認為至少活動的補助上面還是可以再多一點跟委員說明我們大概"},{"start":699.713,"end":702.616,"text":"所有僑界的活動大部分經費不可能全額給他補助大概都只補助大概30到50%就最高了所以僑界也都長期了解說在政府預算有限狀況下他們也會在地去籌募資金來辦有意義的活動那近年來當然我們在"},{"start":719.631,"end":722.712,"text":"這個增多增少的狀況之下我們會還有就是匯率的波動我們確實都會受到一些預算不足的影響所以也期待大院能夠多多的支持本會的預算因為我們的基期真的很低所以再怎麼樣我們的預算規模到目前也"},{"start":739,"end":752.975,"text":"才接近20億而已那海外這麼多的橋校其實我們如果能夠好好的培養補助他們我相信他們的以後這些都是我們的人才好 我們就下會期預算會期的時候我們115年來好好努力一下好的 謝謝林委員 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":270,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時29分）謝謝主席，有請徐委員長，稍後如果跟經濟部相關的話，也請賴常次。"],["徐委員長佳青：林委員早安。"],["林委員楚茵：早安。委員長，我看了一下報告，特別提到有關於「Made by Taiwan」，我覺得這個想法很好，也很開心在這個報告當中看到從2021年我們就開始做了。對於對等關稅本席特別整理了一下，我們幾個新南向的臺商他們在越南、泰國、印尼、印度、菲律賓跟新加坡都各自建立了所謂的產業聚落，因為這是我們多年推動新南向非常重要的成果，可是也同樣的看到我在旁邊寫的數字──46%、37%、32%、27%，這個不是產業聚落的比率，這個目前……"],["徐委員長佳青：是對等關稅。"],["林委員楚茵：是的，沒錯，尤其是像在越南，我們有消費性電子跟紡織的重要聚落，但是他被課以46%的對等關稅，其實這個一出來之後，許多人都關心我們新南向臺商的狀況，我們現在同時提出了Made by Taiwan，是不是可以幫助他們面對未來這些他們所在的國家被課的對等關稅？有沒有辦法透過僑委會相關的協助或是經濟部現在對美的談判，能夠把Made by Taiwan而不是Made in Taiwan結合在一起？在這個部分僑委會有沒有進一步的想法？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，我們從2021年開始做海外臺商精品獎，主要目的是有鑑於我們臺商從90年代開始的對外投資，還有企業的跨國移出越來越頻繁，規模也越來越大，因此我們認為如何讓我們的臺商不要只有單純做代工的角色，賺毛三到四的這種薄利，所以是希望透過這個模式來鼓勵臺商可以建立自有品牌。當然，這一次因應美國的對等關稅，確實是全球都有受到影響，但每一個國家受影響的程度會不一樣，以菲律賓來說，他是相對輕的，只有17%到18%，所以他就會覺得，當大家都被課很重的對等關稅時，反而是他的機會，他可以得到的訂單就會增加，他會得到的投資也會增加。所以我們的臺商在彼此的串聯之間，我們會去想辦法協助他們，等到所有的談判就定位以後，讓他們知道各自國家的差異性在哪裡，他們如何選擇對他們相對有利的聯合廠商去進行相關的生產。總之，只要不是在臺灣建廠製造的，我們都把它稱為Made by Taiwan。"],["林委員楚茵：就是臺灣精品。"],["徐委員長佳青：對，就是臺灣精品，但概念上來說，在研發或設計上面，基本上還是鼓勵他們在臺灣設有一個辦公室，能夠在臺灣接單，在海外製造，最好也能夠直接到市場端去設廠製造，當然也包括在美國，所以確實最近也有不少北美洲的臺商跟亞洲的臺商都是非常密集地在交流，也在談這些可能跨界、跨州投資的狀況。"],["林委員楚茵：所以我也要詢問一下經濟部的賴常次，我覺得透過僑委會今天的報告所看到的這個Made by Taiwan，也許是一些我們過去在推動新南向的時候已經在新南向國家設廠的廠商可以找到的另外一條出路，因為說實話，要把廠移走或者是要寄予他們駐在國的談判，其實也不知道是什麼樣的狀況，雖然臺灣有好消息傳來，說我們在首波第一輪就完成了談判。在Made by Taiwan這個部分，就經濟部來講，有沒有可能在這個部分可以幫我們在新南向國家設廠的這些臺商們找到一個新的契機，至少讓他們不用像越南或者是泰國、印尼這樣被課這麼高的關稅？如果照剛剛徐委員長所說的，還是希望他們要有一個辦公室設在臺灣，在這樣的狀況底下，他就可以成為臺灣精品，而不是只是所謂的臺灣代工，目前這樣的想法是否可行？是否有機會幫只是單獨設廠的臺商解套？"],["賴次長建信：是的，我們一直是朝這個方向，立足臺灣來行銷全世界，以菲律賓為例，剛剛委員長也有提到因為菲律賓受關稅的衝擊稍微比較小，我們經濟部9月會在菲律賓舉辦臺灣的精品展，希望藉此來促進我們在地的臺商甚至現在我們在臺灣的產業去發展，這是第一個。第二個，事實上我們在這次的特別條例裡面有特別提到屬於經濟部的面向，其中有一個是多元拓銷的方式，我們希望引領我們臺灣的廠商可以行銷全世界，這個是我們一直以來努力的方向。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我想經濟部所辦的這個臺灣精品展跟僑委會現在推動的Made by Taiwan都是很好的角度跟方向，但是我又怕兩者之間變成有競爭關係，不論如何，本席也特別去做了一些整理，從2021年辦第1屆到去年2024年辦第3屆，我們發現報名的件數跟廠商好像沒有往上升，我自己認為這個也有一個可能，因為原本我們在新南向國家所設立非代工而是自有、自創品牌的就這麼多，但是現在也許是一個契機，我想問一下徐委員長或經濟部，既然如此的話，要不要趁這個機會好好的宣傳跟行銷一下？因為我們現在做臺灣的自有品牌反而會比代工來得划算，尤其是在越南或泰國這種相對在美國的對等關稅比較高的國家。"],["徐委員長佳青：確實林委員所鼓勵的方向是一個可以思考的點，那我們當然也是在等對美的談判有一個比較清楚的結論出來的時候，因應這個相關的結論，我們再來規劃後續如何輔導這些原來在南向國家做代工的製造業，看他們可以怎麼樣配合臺灣談判的結果來促進他們自有品牌的建構，然後走比較高端的市場，甚至是分散市場的概念，除了美國市場，包括歐洲、歐盟市場或亞洲市場的拓展，至少中東市場也是一個非常大的區塊，東協市場也有相當的人口數量，這些都是我們積極想把Made by Taiwan當作是一個可以提高附加價值的核心概念，那所有的臺商就都會均等受惠。所以在解決這個對等關稅的談判之後，我想我們會配合這個核心概念來持續輔導我們在不同國家相關的企業投資案。"],["林委員楚茵：我也要請常次回應一下，因為我自己認為這個概念很好，但是不要說僑委會做僑委會的、經濟部做經濟部的，這樣會很可惜。"],["賴次長建信：不會，我們是臺灣隊。"],["徐委員長佳青：不會的，我們一直都有密切的聯繫，包括跟國發會、跟經濟部，我們都是Taiwan Team、挺Taiwan。"],["林委員楚茵：OK，最後跟主席借1分鐘就好。本席也有關心到，現在就是我們新南向拚經濟，可是對子女的教育也要兼顧，本席當然知道臺校跟僑校不一樣，僑校才是歸僑委會來管，但是我在今年4月23號的時候也幫我們東南亞4所臺灣學校來爭取有關的補助，主要的原因當然還是因為在中國的臺灣學校對每一位學生的補助是3萬5，而東南亞其實只有1萬。我當然知道面對財劃法的修正，在115年之後中央包括各個部會都有30%要直接撥到地方去，但是它直接影響到的會是跟國際有關、跟地方無關，尤其是在全球的這些學校，其實不論是僑校或臺商學校都會受到影響。我想要請問徐委員長，當面臨這樣的衝擊的時候，你有沒有思考一下？其實我有跟教育部協調，教育部是說如果預算足夠，教育部會考慮把我們東南亞4個臺灣學校對學生的補助從1萬提升到1萬5，就是多5,000塊。但是這個言下之意也形塑出來的是，其他僑校也可能受到預算的波及，可能因為財劃法的關係，那麼會不會影響到僑委會補助這些僑校或其他學校的預算？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，今年度在總預算審查的時候針對業務費總體刪除了10%，當然在這10%當中也包括了僑校的部分，所以確實我們在某些僑校的補助上面今年度都會多少降低一些。那針對臺校的部分，在東南亞有4所臺校，規模、量體都不是很大，而且非常熱門，所以排在waiting list的學生很多，無論有無補助，我們的臺商和臺僑還是會想辦法優先要把孩子送去那邊讀書，因為他們孩子將來都想要回到臺灣繼續升學。不過我們當然是樂見在預算足夠的狀況下可以給他們多一些資源跟補助，而且在過去這些學校成立的時候，是教育部出50%、僑委會出50%，合資讓他們成立了學校。一般的僑校事實上都是自給自足，我們只是補助他們，比方說，給他們教材、給他們師資的培訓還有一些自聘教師的鐘點補助等等，這部分我們確實有受影響，所以也不諱言跟委員報告，我預算不夠，所以我這一年都要去找很多廠商募款。"],["林委員楚茵：好，其實說到補助，可能不是學費或者是學生個人，但是本席也找到，我們113年確實在胡志明市、泗水、雅加達的臺灣學校都有活動的補助，但是我發現這個活動補助其實真的很少，才250塊美元，換算起來不到10萬。我覺得像漢字文化或華語文文化其實是僑校或臺校最重要的部分，如果未來預算許可的話，我認為至少活動的補助還是可以再有多一點的量能。"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員說明，我們對於所有僑界的活動，大部分對經費不可能全額予以補助，大概都只補助30%到50%，這樣就是最高了，所以僑界長期也都了解，在政府預算有限的狀況下，他們也會在地去籌募資金來辦有意義的活動。近年來我們在僧多粥少的狀況之下，還有匯率的波動，我們確實都會受到一些預算不足的影響，所以也期待大院能夠多多的支持本會的預算，因為我們的基期真的很低，再怎麼樣我們的預算規模到目前也才接近20億而已，那海外有這麼多的僑校，我們如果能夠好好的培養、補助他們，我相信以後這些學生都是我們的人才。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我們在下會期預算會期的時候對115年的預算來好好努力一下，謝謝。"],["徐委員長佳青：好的，謝謝林委員。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員的質詢。","接下來由陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":234,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-11","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王定宇","徐巧芯","葉元之","陳永康","林憶君","馬文君"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長、經濟部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委員報告「美國對等關稅政策對僑\n台商全球布局之挑戰，及我政府協助僑台商之具體策略與措施」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00004"}}},{"id":"160993","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160993","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e066e9c0798f30ac776115e7528c8151ef55b504e8793ebcb1114b82059455edac95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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各位委員 有請法務部部長麻煩部長委員好部長好還有所有的官員 大家辛苦了今天的議題 主要就是我們台灣成為一個詐騙的國家"},{"start":35.097,"end":56.422,"text":"行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心今天的報告裡面也特別提到為了要打詐所以制定了詐欺犯罪危害防治條例通訊保障及監察法刑事訴訟法特殊強制處分專章也就是科技偵查法制法"},{"start":57.322,"end":68.327,"text":"還有洗錢防治法然後在這個打炸事法已經在去年7月已經公佈施行了公佈施行之後我們看這個"},{"start":69.964,"end":94.991,"text":"這是今年2月17號的一個新聞詐騙國家國安危機全國遭詐騙的500億是相當相當的高所以有了這個事實上為了這個打詐成立了很多機關無論是過去新成立的樹花部很多相關的"},{"start":96.407,"end":107.441,"text":"人員也增加了很多經費也增加了很多法也制定了但是我們的這個整個招詐的金額"},{"start":108.789,"end":134.522,"text":"相關的件數不斷不斷的增加所以這個部分啊這個部長當然還有相關的機關啊這個我今天看了你們的法務部的報告這個檢討的因應這個作為好像不高不多這個從你的報告裡面這樣的一個好像就是啊就這樣過"},{"start":138.294,"end":162.871,"text":"所以這個部分你看我們這個近五年的詐欺案件數及財務的財損不斷不斷的升高從2020年一直到現在去年502億這樣的一個金額逐年的增加所以這樣的一個情形之下"},{"start":164.709,"end":187.225,"text":"日常交易啊人民就受到很大的恐慌到底成為怎麼樣連日常的交易都成為詐騙的溫床事實上這個整個無論是法務部當然現在最辛苦的是警察啦其實最辛苦的警察但是司法機關檢調單位就從這段時間都往哪裡"},{"start":195.672,"end":221.131,"text":"就誠如陳水扁總統講的清算再也失利這些嫌棄的案件就是清算把時間人力都移到那邊去了花了這麼多的人力在那邊剛才講的個案已經發生的個案需要檢討的就要趕快通令所有的檢調單位要檢討啊"},{"start":223.629,"end":246.897,"text":"不該拿走的文件 中選會的公文拿走了聯署人要去 體育人要去送件的時候就沒有公文類似像這樣的你不能說這是個案 不能討論已經發生的個案就要檢討就要通知所有的檢調機關要檢討 要審慎"},{"start":253.053,"end":278.78,"text":"譬如說剛才講的相關的這些搜索不過具體的話司法院要把它具體化因為已經發生這種爛錢的搜索了所以這個部分都是需要去檢討當然這樣的一個詐騙有了法有了人仍然這麼嚴重所以"},{"start":282,"end":310.609,"text":"雖然這裡報告裡面強化民眾防詐意識其實是要從國家開始我們的政府從國家真的是一個詐騙一個政務官在民眾面前講租屋的補助被砍傷了幼兒津貼被砍傷了一個政務官"},{"start":312.523,"end":335.96,"text":"這不是詐騙嗎 詐騙從政府裡面出現詐騙那人民到底要怎麼相信 相信誰啊部長你可能還有司法院還有調查局的可能不了解我們的明白為了網路啊"},{"start":338.749,"end":367.462,"text":"我們常常要去說明網路啊說這個被刪了這個被砍了預算被刪了我們常常要去說明很忙啊有的是政務官的有的是立法委員的有的是網軍的成為台灣已經成為一個詐騙國家這個都是我們司法機關"},{"start":370.42,"end":397.085,"text":"檢調商會要去包括我們所有的政務官尤其是這個好我們看這個對不對中選會公布謝國良罷免案的調查報告裡面提到基隆選委會九大威師事實上他談的不是選委會的九大威師我這邊要談的不是"},{"start":398.297,"end":421.083,"text":"中選會表示提議人名冊是查對提議人有未照情勢的經該會刪除 經中選會刪除的557人其中有319人未照未照啊 中選會已經寫未照啊中選會已經明確地說未照啊"},{"start":423.462,"end":452.322,"text":"都沒有辦啊對不對這非常非常的一個所以這個部分啊這個上次我也提到啊上次我也提到這個台灣怎麼會淪落到這樣的一個地步啊陳水扁總統講得很清楚他說清算在野勢力這個就是"},{"start":454.423,"end":478.132,"text":"檢調單位配合清算在野勢力所以這個部分尤其是我們公務人員出身的怎麼樣去針對政務官壽命以上面事務官就應該要抗計把司法把相關我們台灣的一個"},{"start":480.129,"end":483.699,"text":"不要說到一直成為一個詐騙國家以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":934,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時33分）主席、各位委員，有請法務部部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra 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Agus 96歲過世一個一個凋零我們很擔心的就是說這樣的文化就要結束了嗎"},{"start":317.406,"end":332.594,"text":"有沒有年輕人願意接但是我們看到這樣的保存者其實不容易很困難雖然剛才屏東我們看到出現這麼多的靈媒在那個地方但是有做文化保存的是零沒有"},{"start":334.622,"end":348.334,"text":"那為什麼 因為他們這個工作其實很重要像是我們所有的祭典其實都會想要請到靈媒出來去做一個祭儀他就很像現在我們也會在後面補一個宗教的禱告祈福是一樣的一個意思對傳統祭典 傳統醫療 心理的輔導等等"},{"start":356.221,"end":371.468,"text":"那在這裡他的文資身份就很困難因為他必須要跟著人才能夠被保存但是有一些東西像這個記詞它是古文言文其實我們一般人也根本聽不懂"},{"start":372.228,"end":395.761,"text":"那對於這些學習的學生來講他們也覺得很困難因為他們可能要用錄音的方式一直聽 一直背 一直問所以他們現在面臨的困難非常的多所以很難被認定文字身份那為什麼我們現在很在意文字身份因為政府會給予一些資源例如會有師徒制 給予徒弟那這樣子呢 對一些"},{"start":396.661,"end":406.811,"text":"把工作辭掉的人來講他就會增加他的誘因投入這樣的一個文化傳承我也看到去年監察院的教育文化委員會他們也有針對我們很多的族人給予這樣的一個陳情去做了這樣的一個建議報告"},{"start":416.181,"end":437.331,"text":"他們是希望說文化部跟園民會可以來討論原化保存的具體合作機制建立文資保存跟傳統智慧保護的一個整合平台所以這個部分我想問一下就是部長您對這個有沒有收到這樣的一個相關訊息那我們有沒有做什麼樣的一個回應跟預備"},{"start":438.55,"end":453.204,"text":"有就是屏東縣政府已經有送來一個案子一個研究計畫在五月會提送我們來申請委員剛剛講那個東西我個人是蠻感動因為無形文化資產尤其是剛剛講那個林美其實在"},{"start":454.225,"end":469.069,"text":"電影也好 小說也好已經開始被很多作家來開始描述但是因為我們鑑定無形無法資產的時候會組織一個專家學者那我覺得我們可能要打破這樣一個制度因為了解的人太少"},{"start":469.609,"end":494.194,"text":"包括剛才講的那個記文等等那文化部很願意來努力來研究這個部分看能不能來保存它我個人是覺得台灣最珍貴的都在這些信仰然後尤其是快要已經失傳的這些東西我覺得我會 我們來努力謝謝部長肯定積極的一個態度回覆那其實我在解凍報告當中也有看到"},{"start":495.154,"end":512.95,"text":"文資補查機制那你們也有提到說鼓勵優先提報補查的補助計畫我覺得這很好因為追根究柢地方政府他基於人力不足或專業不足其實他們要完成這件事情是很困難的那我常常講"},{"start":514.051,"end":522.499,"text":"我們地方的這些擁有文化智慧知識的這些人他不見得懂得行政機關的遊戲規則對他們來講很困難所以應該是由政府來主動積極的去找到他們協助他們那我希望說這樣的一個補助計畫能夠多加的宣傳推廣"},{"start":534.55,"end":550.102,"text":"讓需要的人可以用得到那您剛才有提到啊像這個全世界最多人看的哈利波特就是一個西方的一個巫師學校他是很被推崇的很吸引人的那我覺得在這個當中他們是跟我講啦我們也可不可以有巫師學校啦"},{"start":553.644,"end":578.391,"text":"他們說 委員 那個那麼好我們一樣是在傳承語言文化可是現在政府那個教主語的都有給他們什麼主語專職教師縣政府 地方政府 相公所的語言推動組織人員都有給他們薪水那為什麼我們這種這麼稀罕 稀有的文化保存為什麼文化部可以比照嘛"},{"start":579.171,"end":589.909,"text":"給我們一個老師嘛 讓老師 至少老師有收入他就可以教學生我不知道部長 您對於這樣的地方的聲音 您有什麼看法"},{"start":590.871,"end":618.532,"text":"這點我是不是請我們那個文資局局長來回答因為這個蠻具體的譬如說我們要一個無私學校是類似這樣的我想請他來回答好 謝謝委員剛才提到這個林梅這個案子我想第一個就是我們希望他有文化資產身份那現在屏東縣政府現在會做先期調查研究我們會輔導有一些個案像南排灣族的林梅這個案子他上次提來有一些還要再修正再送來我們讓他有文資身份之後我們會補助他做所謂的保存維護計畫計畫裡面有一些相關"},{"start":620.854,"end":631.34,"text":"多這個我想我們可以跟屏東縣政府我們很痛苦的就是文資保存我們都覺得慢少"},{"start":632.849,"end":652.461,"text":"我們會加速主動跟屏東縣政府來積極聯繫我是覺得如果真的沒有辦法快多就倒不如就推一個政策就像我們現在很多的主語推動的政策也有語推人員也有主語專職教師他其實也可以用政策來推動"},{"start":653.803,"end":667.177,"text":"那我請局長跟部長來思考看看好不好那以上的這些問題我是希望說也能夠再到辦公室跟我做一個說明可以嗎可以沒問題好謝謝部長也謝謝主席好謝謝吳麗華委員部長請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":366,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（10時27分）謝謝主席，再次有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長早。部長，在臺灣原住民有一種文化叫做靈媒文化或者巫師文化，我想你都很清楚。我要跟你講一個故事，過去我們有推動太空發展法，在這個法三讀通過之前，也有在屏東旭海三射坪做一個科研火箭的發射場域，2022年7月我們在等待第一枚科研火箭升空，當時的科技部長、前瞻司長邀請很多人，我們在那個地方借了早上6點到8點的空域要等待那枚科研火箭發射。第一次，我們從凌晨4點等到8點，升空失敗就解散；第二次的時候部長沒有來，剩下前瞻司長，我們也是從凌晨一直等到早上8點，失敗就解散，那個時候我就忍不住跟太空中心主任吳宗信阿伯講，你們來到原住民的傳統領域，應該要做一個敬天拜地的祭儀，其實這邊就有所謂的pulingaw，我說要不要試試看，至少來到這個地方，總要跟這邊的土地拜一下嘛！他欣然接受，所以第三次，也就是7月10號的時候，我們請到張順枝vuvu，他5點多就開始準備，在那邊敬天拜地，6點12分一次升空，吳宗信太空中心阿伯說：飛得非常漂亮。我其實不是在這個地方要告訴大家靈媒有多厲害，我不是要在這邊怪力亂神，而是說，其實原住民這樣的一個文化很珍貴，但是式微卻很重要。","到了2023年，我給您看第二個例子，因為去（2024）年是牡丹社事件的150週年，我們在愛丁堡大學有發現牡丹社事件的遺骨，為了迎接這150週年，我也協助原民會在那個地方交涉，他們也欣然地願意把這個遺骨返還。去迎接的過程中，你看這個照片，是牡丹社的頭目跟他們的靈媒在那個地方做祭儀，當時愛丁堡大學的解剖學主任吉陵瓦特在旁邊觀禮，他說：「這是很動人的經驗，我可以感受到儀式對在場所有人而言有多麼重要。」","現在屏東4月22日到10月26日終於……其實我們很多人一直在談這件事情，就是我們怎麼樣去重視這些靈媒，終於在今年周春米縣長有在屏東屏菸那個地方辦了一個「靈媒與她們的產地─屏東縣靈媒文化特展」，現場這一些就是碩果僅存的靈媒，這個其實比起10年前是多的，為什麼？因為這些年有很多年輕的靈媒具備這樣的傳統身分，他們很多人都放棄了工作，像我以前在原民處，我的一個同仁就放棄工作，因為他覺得一直在召喚他回去接這個工作，所以他就毅然決然地回去投入靈媒文化。所以我在這邊要講的，其實是文化資產這一塊很重要，我們也看到這些年的一些文化保存者，像去年的新聞，有一個阿美族的巫師祭儀保存者，叫Api，他在去年7月過世，享年86歲；去年年底12月也有一個阿美族的巫師祭儀保存者，叫做Epah Akus，96歲過世。一個一個凋零，我們很擔心這樣的文化就要結束了嗎？有沒有年輕人願意接？但是我們看到作為這樣的保存者其實不容易、很困難，雖然剛才我們看到屏東出現這麼多的靈媒，但是有做文化保存的是零，沒有，為什麼？因為他們這個工作其實很重要，像是我們所有的祭典，其實都會想要請靈媒出來做祭儀，就很像現在我們也會在後面補一個宗教的禱告、祈福，是一樣的意思，對傳統祭典、傳統醫療、心理的輔導等等，在這裡他的文資身分就很困難，因為它必須要跟著人才能夠被保存，但是有一些東西，像祭詞，它是古文言文，其實我們一般人根本也聽不懂，對於這些學習的學生來講，他們也覺得很困難，因為他們可能要用錄音的方式一直聽、一直背、一直問，所以他們現在面臨的困難非常地多，所以很難被認定文資身分。為什麼我們現在很在意文資身分？因為政府會給予一些資源，例如會有師徒制，給予徒弟，這樣子對一些把工作辭掉的人來講，就會增加他的誘因，投入這樣的文化傳承。","我也看到去年監察院的教育及文化委員會，他們也有針對我們很多族人的陳情做了一個建議報告。他們是希望文化部跟原民會可以來討論原民文化保存的具體合作機制，建立文資保存跟傳統智慧保護的整合平臺，所以這個部分，我想問一下部長，您有沒有收到這樣的相關訊息？你們有沒有做什麼樣的回應跟預備？"],["李部長遠：有，屏東縣政府已經有送來一個研究計畫的案子，在5月會提送給我們申請。委員剛才講的東西，我個人是滿感動的，因為無形文化資產，尤其是剛剛講的靈媒，其實在電影也好、小說也好，已經開始被很多作家描述，但是因為我們鑑定無形文化資產的時候會組織專家學者，我覺得我們可能要打破這樣一個制度。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["李部長遠：因為了解的人太少了，包括剛才講的祭文等等，文化部很願意努力來研究這個部分，看能不能來保存它，我個人是覺得臺灣最珍貴的都在這些信仰，尤其是快要失傳的這些東西，我們會來努力。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝部長以肯定積極的態度回復。其實我在解凍報告當中也有看到文資普查機制，你們也有提到鼓勵優先提報普查的補助計畫，我覺得這很好，因為追根究柢地方政府基於人力不足或專業不足，其實他們要完成這件事情是很困難的。我常常講，地方上這些擁有文化智慧知識的人，他不見得懂得行政機關的遊戲規則，對他們來講很困難，所以應該是由政府主動積極地去找到他們、協助他們，我希望這樣的補助計畫能夠多加的宣傳、推廣，讓需要的人可以用得到。","您剛才有提到，像全世界最多人看的哈利波特，就是一個西方巫師學校的故事，它是很被推崇的、很吸引人的，在這個當中，他們是跟我講：「我們可不可以也有巫師學校？」他們說：「委員，那個那麼好，我們一樣是在傳承語言文化，可是現在政府教族語的都有給他們族語專職教師，縣政府、地方政府、鄉公所的語言推動組織、人員都有給他們薪水，我們這種這麼稀罕、稀有的文化保存，文化部也可以比照，給我們一個老師的頭銜，至少老師有收入，他就可以教學生」，我不知道部長對於地方這樣的聲音，你有什麼看法？"],["李部長遠：這點我是不是請我們文資局局長來回答？因為這個滿具體的，譬如我們要有一個類似巫師學校這樣的，我想請他來回答。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。"],["陳局長濟民：委員剛才提到靈媒這個案子，我想第一個就是我們希望他有文化資產身分，現在屏東縣政府會做先期調查研究，我們會輔導一些個案，像上次提來南排灣族靈媒的案子，有一些還要修正後再送來，我們讓他有文資身分之後，會補助他做所謂的保存維護計畫，計畫裡面有一些相關……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那可不可以又快又多？"],["陳局長濟民：這個部分我想我們可以跟屏東縣政府……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們很痛苦的就是文資保存，我們都覺得又慢又少。"],["陳局長濟民：是，我們會加速，也會主動跟屏東縣政府積極聯繫。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我是覺得如果真的沒有辦法又快又多，倒不如就推一個政策，就像我們現在很多的族語推動政策，也有語推人員、也有族語專職教師，它其實也可以用政策來推動，我請局長跟部長思考看看，好不好？"],["陳局長濟民：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：以上這些問題，我是希望也能夠再到辦公室跟我做一個說明，可以嗎，部長？"],["李部長遠：可以，沒問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長，也謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員，部長請回。","接下來請陳秀寳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-10","speakers":["林宜瑾","郭昱晴","劉書彬","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","柯志恩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳秀寳","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","葉元之","范雲","蘇巧慧","黃捷","陳培瑜","邱志偉"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算解凍案49案","agenda_id":"1144601_00005"}}},{"id":"160991","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160991","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e066e69033ffa170463115e7528c8151ef55b504e8793ebcb11816541f3e3d245755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:15:33 - 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那個局長 剛才我聽了那個吳宗憲 趙偉的質詢 你的那個回答我覺得你這個應該是未來 升官發財都指日可待 非常非常的那個"},{"start":50.444,"end":68.018,"text":"可以看這個上級的臉色來辦事我們在談到很多案件裡面都在講說都是個案不去講但是呢你剛才也提到竟然在整個的偵辦過程裡面就可以講到說有人在教室裡面集體作弊所以"},{"start":69.098,"end":75.843,"text":"局長,你未來關運,祝你關運亨通啦但是局長我想請問一下,剛才在講,就是有關於這個獎勵辦法是112年開始實施那請問一下112年有沒有在這個連署裡面出現死人連署跟偽造連署"},{"start":90.493,"end":113.975,"text":"各位委員報告我們這112年定的這個績效要點主要是為了要因應113年的二合一選舉那但是我們在要點裡面有特別提到就是說因為本次而這個選舉當選的當選人他的這個將來的罷免程序以及當選人因為罷免而必須要辦理補選他的績效考核也適用本要的規定好 我要講現在看有好多種"},{"start":114.816,"end":124.181,"text":"好多種的這個標準不同剛才說過去都沒有告發嗎怎麼會沒有告發呢我剛才為什麼特別講112年以後在113年11月29號"},{"start":131.204,"end":154.709,"text":"中選會就告發了有關於謝國良市長的罷免案的相關的偽造連署跟死亡連署他的罷免時間是113年的11月29號所以如果按照你可以適用你這個相關的獎勵辦法我就不懂謝國良當時他的罷免案有辦嗎"},{"start":156.189,"end":180.039,"text":"也有沒有告發呢?有告發呀那另外過去數次的不管是公投案或者是罷免案中選會有沒有告發呢?你剛才說都沒有人告發中選會也是有告發的喔在包含罷免韓國瑜、王浩宇、陳柏惟、黃捷、高敏玲、陳志忠"},{"start":181.314,"end":194.58,"text":"林長佐等等 中選會通通有告發 請問有辦嗎奇怪了 中選會告發 你們當它 中選會是SOGA喔中選會的告發你們有辦嗎 沒有辦啊至於你112年可以適用的 我剛剛講那幾個確實在112年之前 你沒有辦 當然沒有適用"},{"start":204.785,"end":219.317,"text":"謝國良113年年底告發你有辦嗎 沒有辦你有適用嗎 你也沒有適用所以你現在講的所謂的標準根本都是因人設事都是因人設事"},{"start":221.567,"end":231.356,"text":"都沒有給你 那是檢察官怠惰囉那檢察官他可以自己查 他本來就是偵查主體啊那為什麼不查 那為什麼不查那你為什麼不去追究啊 中選會告發 中選會還是行政單位為什麼檢察官可以不查不需要查 沒有交辦嘛沒有交辦就不必查嘛"},{"start":243.306,"end":256.295,"text":"沒有交辦就不必查嘛有交辦才需要查嘛而且要大規模查嘛唯一的標準就是如此啊你剛才在講的你所有的不管相關的規定也好有沒有告發也好現在看起來全部都是雙標還不只雙標好幾個標準唯一的標準就是上面有沒有交辦而已嘛沒有所以你還在這邊可以硬拗嗎沒有 這我不用拗我很清楚你當然在硬拗好 再來"},{"start":272.445,"end":295.556,"text":"剛才都說是個案可是有很多的個案連結起來它是不是就是通案其實大家都知道在民主國家裡面你要去搜索在野政黨本來就是一個大事情好 當然你們這次以所謂的偽造文書就是以連署造假來做你們調查偵查的這個重點"},{"start":296.596,"end":308.49,"text":"但是我上次在這邊我也講過在你們搜索台北市黨部的時候你針對的是罷免吳思瑤跟罷免吳佩奕的連署的造假 對不對"},{"start":309.775,"end":317.137,"text":"台北市黨部是不是 這個是個案的內容這還不個案 你又在裝傻囉你不要裝傻囉 是不是在裝傻來來 不知道也可以回答 我已經講過了在台北市 你偵辦的是兩個立法委員的造假連署所以他針對的區是非常非常明確的"},{"start":335.236,"end":351.296,"text":"但是我上次就講結果你帶走的是什麼呢你帶走的是中山區的黨員名冊我上次就講中山區的黨員如何能連署到吳佩奕委員跟吳思瑤委員呢"},{"start":351.877,"end":366.613,"text":"好剛才吳宗憲委員也特別提到在台中你們把支持者的名冊也帶走請問一下支持者的名冊你為什麼要帶走呢所以你今天是要查"},{"start":367.954,"end":385.95,"text":"國民黨的金主們嗎 是不是你為什麼要把支持者的名冊帶走所以現在檢調你們辦案已經辦到無限上綱你們本來是辦聯署造假結果把支持者的名冊帶走把戰情分析帶走現在是怎樣你們是連選舉人家的戰情分析"},{"start":393.72,"end":417.502,"text":"也 也違法了嗎請問一下 一個市黨部裡面 任何的黨部裡面有戰情分析 這是什麼樣的違法的文件來 回答我 這就通案了啦 這已經是通案 不是個案請問一下 在黨部裡面 如果有戰情分析它是什麼樣的違法文件可以扣押 可以帶走"},{"start":420.356,"end":436.332,"text":"答不出來嗎這還是個案的一個認定這是個案這當然是通案所以我要講的如果把黨部的金主的名冊帶走把戰情的分析帶走"},{"start":437.504,"end":453.403,"text":"這叫做個案個案你們不會去查唷這根本都違法了嘛這是已經違法濫權了好 再來剛剛講宜蘭宜蘭把中選會的公文帶走把中選會的公文帶走"},{"start":454.454,"end":474.913,"text":"然後一開始還否認最後說不小心帶走請問一下這還可以視為個案是之嗎所以我說從台北市黨部到台中市黨部到宜蘭縣黨部你們把不應該帶走的東西而且不可以帶走的東西通通帶走"},{"start":477.428,"end":482.951,"text":"請問檢察官或者調查區可以如此濫權嗎這個不是濫權這不叫濫權來來部長講這怎麼叫做不叫不是濫權一日一令狀態執行的一個扣押當然如果釐清之後如果說認為沒有留存的必要當然就發還了嘛"},{"start":492.156,"end":500.638,"text":"那他為什麼要釐清暫情分析我請問一下這個釐清就可以什麼樣你們都可以帶走裡面所有無關你案情的請問一下你可以把金主名冊帶走嗎你是要去查人家水表嗎你是要去查這些金主的水表嗎可以嗎"},{"start":518.223,"end":523.467,"text":"然後另外你說有沒有兩套標準說都有辦啊請問一下你們有去抄任何民進黨的黨部民進黨的地方黨部嗎有嗎所以怎麼樣你還可以不發還給人家是不是所以你帶走還帶得很你覺得很理所當然"},{"start":543.183,"end":549.265,"text":"這完全的就是濫權啊怎麼可以追殺一個政黨追殺到這種地步你巧立一個名目來辦案然後把其他所有不相關的通通帶走這法院合法的搜索票去執行的時間暫停我請那個司法院司法院覆密"},{"start":574.415,"end":597.302,"text":"那廳長也上來好了來法部說這次只要你們發了搜索票所以他可以為所欲為 扣所欲口 扣愛帶走什麼就帶走什麼是這樣嗎 副秘書長跟案情無關的他都說可以帶走嗎"},{"start":599.808,"end":625.627,"text":"搜索票它是那个令状主义所以说有关于那个搜索的那个对象跟那个标的物在搜索票上面都有记载好那请问一下以这个联署的话那么它应该是跟联署伪造联署相关的嘛对不对你们难道是说只要比如说你今天搜索台北市党部台北市党部所有的一草一木你都可以带走是这样吗"},{"start":626.721,"end":648.065,"text":"我想請問一下 當你法院發搜索票的時候跟案情無關的相關的文件是不是也可以隨便的帶走隨便的扣押我剛剛講了 這個很多都跟案情無關啊一點關係都沒有的"},{"start":651.574,"end":666.218,"text":"那我剛才所說的這些狀況那麼我們檢調單位在去扣押這些相關的證物的時候有沒有已經逾越了其實法官開搜索票的範圍我剛才說啦你今天罷免連署是這個選區但是呢他去把其他的選區的名冊一併帶走"},{"start":679.938,"end":704.194,"text":"或者是 他是以罷免 這是連署的案子但是他有相關的戰情分析他的戰情分析絕對不是罷免的分析嘛 因為還沒有成立嘛可能是過去的戰情分析可以 按照我剛才講的實際的具體案例有沒有逾越了法院所開立搜索票的範圍"},{"start":705.553,"end":719.029,"text":"報告委員就是在那個個案執行的時候就是依那個實際上那個狀況在那個搜索票上面他的這個搜索標的他不會到特定非常特定的一個文件所以副秘書長我們以我們以保障人權"},{"start":723.334,"end":746.131,"text":"因為即便被調查者 被調查的 我們本來講就是還沒有那個還未經判決嘛 對不對 我們都是無罪推定嘛 是我們是無罪推定 是那麼可以這樣的 由第一線的檢調人員做這樣的一個他完全由他意志 他決定帶走什麼就帶走什麼嗎你覺得這樣的搜索"},{"start":747.492,"end":771.011,"text":"在台灣說尊重司法人權要落實司法人權這樣子是合理的嗎合理嗎我剛才講的都是實際案例喔合理嗎因為如果說是非本案的扣押的話他後面還是有救濟程序還是可以經由那個司法再做一次那個審查可是他已經帶走了"},{"start":772.264,"end":782.032,"text":"好 所以妳也不敢講說這是合理的嘛 對不對所以我要講的就是說在這一波的這個整個搜索的裡面我們看到不同的地檢署講白話就是殺紅了癮"},{"start":787.028,"end":810.163,"text":"而法務部或者調查局完全沒有做任何的節制即便在立法院裡面我們已經提出有這些的疑慮但是他們顯然覺得沒有什麼關係其實你今天對一個在野黨如此你對一般的深斗小民何嘗不是如此呢你只要進去拿了一個搜索票搜索票是萬能的嗎"},{"start":811.556,"end":836.774,"text":"搜索票是萬能的嗎你想要扣什麼證物你就扣什麼證物嗎無關的你也可以這樣子去扣嗎如果是這樣的話台灣沒有司法人權可言欸不是如此嗎另外我也請教副秘書長在昨天在昨天當然你們一定會講個案但是我要請教的是就是"},{"start":840.151,"end":859.064,"text":"你們在昨天就是台北市黨部的主委黃禮菊她抗告失敗那當然這是個案但是在你們的新聞稿裡面也就是呢駁回她抗告其中有一部分引起了非常多的討論裡面就是說"},{"start":864.123,"end":889.303,"text":"這個黃麗菊奴涉嫌刑法然後有一個重點我紅色框起來且被告與本案其餘共犯間關於政治立場及本案犯行部分均有利害關係所以大家的質疑就是說今天你要不要羈押他難道政治立場也是一個考量的重點嗎按照你們的新聞稿"},{"start":894.773,"end":913.194,"text":"抗告駁回的理由其中是他們之間的政治立場所以也就是說不管是檢察官也好或法官也好他決定要不要羈押他的時候他要先了解這個當事人的政治立場跟其他被告的政治立場"},{"start":914.275,"end":942.148,"text":"他都要先了解 而且如果覺得你們相似的話一樣的話 也作為羈押的理由是不是如此那個包委員齁 這個確實是那個個案齁那但是就是依他這個文字上面那個解讀他這個並不是因為 當事人並不是因為那個政治立場所以說那個受到那個羈押與否的一個決定我想這個文字脈絡上並沒有這樣子的一個意思"},{"start":942.984,"end":959.826,"text":"那你都放在新聞稿了我相信這個判決書一定更露露腸啊你知道這個新聞稿是要擷取其中之精華呀然後今天提到他的政治立場這是怎麼樣 制正這次辦案有政治立場的考量嗎"},{"start":962.025,"end":990.373,"text":"這是法官也自證我在決定他要不要駁回他抗告的時候我考量當事人的政治立場嗎那個報告委員那個法官就是不管是一憲法或者是那個依法官法呢就是說他絕對是一個獨立審判是要超出那個政治那個政黨屬性還有那個政治立場的其實我知道在這邊也得不到你們的這個回話因為我想你們也覺得這個到底你要怎麼回答"},{"start":991.013,"end":1013.839,"text":"我只是覺得齁你們不管檢調或者是法院可以不演到這種程度嗎連政治立場都可以放到這個抗告的新聞稿裡面大拉拉的向上表忠是不是以我來看的話這是要向上表忠的一個新聞稿啊因為我知道黃磊 景儒的政治立場太扯了司法真的應該是"},{"start":1021.636,"end":1043.231,"text":"皇后的徵抄但是你們現在操作司法現在變成皇帝的徵抄了有徵抄可言嗎在這一連串的事件裡面你們的操作非常粗暴而且呢完全的雙標而且如果你們覺得不以為意"},{"start":1044.485,"end":1063.231,"text":"即便是下面的人這樣子基層的這樣子的搞法你們還覺得是可以去護航的那麼台灣的司法人權真的真的在這次案子裡面真的完全被踐踏了我覺得大家都難得可以"},{"start":1064.437,"end":1074.425,"text":"在高官上做一些事情但是如果今天做的是把司法人群讓大家看不起其實我覺得這是很悲哀的事情好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":854,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時15分）謝謝主席，一樣先請法務部部長還有調查局局長。"],["主席：麻煩部長、局長。"],["陳局長白立：委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：局長，剛才我聽了吳宗憲召委的質詢，你的回答，我覺得你未來升官發財應該指日可待……"],["陳局長白立：不會、不會，我把我現在的工作做好就好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：非常地會看上級的臉色來辦事，我們在談到很多案件時，都說因為是個案所以不去談，但是你剛才也提到，竟然在整個偵辦過程裡面，就可以講到有人在教室裡面集體作弊，所以局長，祝你官運亨通。"],["陳局長白立：我是舉例。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是局長，我想請問一下，剛才在講的，有關於這個獎勵辦法是112年開始實施，請問一下，112年有沒有在連署裡面出現死人連署跟偽造連署？112年之後……"],["陳局長白立：跟委員報告，我們在112年訂定的這個績效要點，主要是為了因應113年的二合一選舉，但是我們在要點裡面有特別提到，因為本次選舉而當選的當選人，將來的罷免程序以及當選人因為罷免而必須要辦理補選時，他的績效考核也適用本要點的規定。"],["王委員鴻薇：我要講，現在有好多種不同的標準，剛才說過去都沒有告發，怎麼會沒有告發呢？我剛才為什麼特別講112年以後？在113年11月29號中選會就告發了有關謝國樑市長罷免案相關的偽造連署及死亡連署，他的罷免時間是113年11月29號，所以如果可以適用相關的獎勵辦法，我就不懂，當時謝國樑的罷免案有辦嗎？有沒有告發呢？有告發呀！另外，過去數次不管是公投案或是罷免案，中選會有沒有告發呢？你剛剛說都沒有人告發，中選會也是有告發的……"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，您剛剛講的這個案子，檢察官沒有發查。"],["王委員鴻薇：包含罷免韓國瑜、王浩宇、陳柏惟、黃捷、高閔琳、陳致中、林昶佐等等，中選會通通有告發，請問有辦嗎？奇怪了，中選會告發，你們當中選會是塑膠喔？中選會的告發你們有辦嗎？沒有辦啊！"],["陳局長白立：中選會跟檢方告發，檢方沒有交查給我們。"],["王委員鴻薇：至於112年可以適用的，我剛才講的那幾個確實是在112年之前，你沒有辦，當然沒有適用，但謝國樑罷免案113年年底被告發，你有辦嗎？沒有辦，你有適用嗎？你也沒有適用，所以你現在講所謂的標準，根本都是因人設事，都是因人設事，這個……"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，你剛剛提到的那幾個案子，檢察官都沒有發查給我們。"],["王委員鴻薇：都沒有給你，那是檢察官怠惰囉？"],["陳局長白立：檢察官他可以自己查，他本來就是偵查主體……"],["王委員鴻薇：那為什麼不查？為什麼不查？"],["陳局長白立：他不一定要發查給調查局，他可能會發查給警察。"],["王委員鴻薇：你為什麼不去追究？中選會告發，中選會還是行政單位……"],["陳局長白立：中選會不是跟調查局告發。"],["王委員鴻薇：為什麼檢察官可以不查？不需要查，因為沒有交辦嘛！沒有交辦就不必查嘛，有交辦才需要查嘛，而且要大規模查，唯一的標準就是如此啊！你剛才在講的，不管是相關規定也好、有沒有告發也好，現在看起來全部都是雙標，還不只雙標，是好幾個標準，唯一的標準就是上面有沒有交辦而已嘛！"],["陳局長白立：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你還在這邊硬拗嗎？"],["陳局長白立：沒有，這我不用拗，因為我很清楚。"],["王委員鴻薇：你當然在硬拗。再來，剛才都說是個案，可是很多的個案連結起來是不是就是通案？大家都知道，在民主國家裡面，你要去搜索在野政黨本來就是一個大事情，當然，你們這次以偽造文書、以連署造假來做你們調查、偵查的重點，但是我上次在這邊也講過，在你們搜索臺北市黨部的時候，你針對的是罷免吳思瑤跟罷免吳沛憶連署的造假，對不對？臺北市黨部是不是？"],["陳局長白立：這個是個案的內容，我覺得……"],["王委員鴻薇：這又是個案，你又在裝傻了！"],["陳局長白立：委員，你不要問我這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：你不要裝傻了，是不是在裝傻？"],["陳局長白立：而且我也不會知道他們在現場搜了什麼啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：好，來，部長也可以回答，我已經講過了，在臺北市你偵辦的是兩個立法委員的造假連署，所以針對的區是非常明確的，結果你帶走的是什麼呢？你帶走的是中山區的黨員名冊，我上次講，中山區的黨員如何能連署到吳沛憶委員跟吳思瑤委員呢？剛才吳宗憲委員也特別提到在臺中，你們把支持者的名冊也帶走，請問支持者的名冊你為什麼要帶走呢？所以你今天是要查國民黨的金主們，是不是？你為什麼要把支持者的名冊帶走？現在檢調辦案已經辦到無限上綱，你們本來是辦連署造假，結果把支持者的名冊帶走，把戰情分析帶走，現在是怎樣？連選舉時人家的戰情分析也違法了嗎？請問一下，一個市黨部裡面、任何的黨部裡面有戰情分析，這是什麼樣違法的文件？回答我，這就是通案了啦！這已經是通案，不是個案。請問在黨部裡面如果有戰情分析，它是什麼樣的違法文件，可以扣押、可以帶走？答不出來嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這還是個案的一個認定。"],["王委員鴻薇：這是個案？這當然是通案。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員已經問過，這個還是要個別認定，而且檢察官是依法官搜索票內容進行搜索……"],["王委員鴻薇：如果把黨部金主的名冊帶走，把戰情的分析帶走，這叫做個案？個案你們不會去查嗎？這根本都違法了，這是違法濫權啊！","再來，剛才講宜蘭把中選會的公文帶走，一開始還否認，最後說不小心帶走，請問這還是用個案視之嗎？所以從臺北市黨部，到臺中市黨部、到宜蘭縣黨部，你們把不應該帶走的東西，而且不可以帶走的東西，通通帶走，請問檢察官或者調查局可以如此濫權嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是濫權。"],["王委員鴻薇：這不叫濫權？來，部長講這怎麼不叫濫權？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是依令狀來執行的扣押，釐清之後如果認為沒有留存的必要，當然就發還了嘛！這一件就是它的……"],["王委員鴻薇：為什麼要釐清戰情分析？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果認為沒有留存的必要，這個釐清就可以……"],["王委員鴻薇：什麼釐清就可以？你們什麼樣都可以帶走，裡面所有無關案情的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是要按照令狀的……"],["王委員鴻薇：請問你可以把金主名冊帶走嗎？你是要怎麼樣？是要去查人家水表嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是個案的……"],["王委員鴻薇：你是要去查這些金主的水表嗎？可以嗎？另外，你說沒有兩套標準？你說都有辦啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是兩套標準，這是個案認定，所以委員不要誤會了。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們有去抄任何民進黨的地方黨部嗎？有嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且如果釐清沒有留存的必要，就已經發還了嘛！宜蘭地檢署也發新聞稿做澄清，委員知道嘛！"],["王委員鴻薇：所以怎麼樣？你還可以不發還人家，是不是？你帶走還覺得很理所當然？所以……"],["鄭部長銘謙：連署的公文已經發還了嘛！認為沒有留存的必要，已經釐清了嘛！"],["王委員鴻薇：這就是完全的濫權啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這沒有濫權啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：怎麼可以追殺一個政黨，追殺到這種地步？巧立一個名目來辦案，然後把其他所有不相關的通通帶走……"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有什麼巧立名目，這是令狀，是照法院核發的搜索票去執行的。"],["王委員鴻薇：搜索票可以……來，時間暫停。我請司法院副秘，廳長也上來好了。法務部說這個只要你們發了搜索票，所以他可以為所欲為、扣所欲扣，愛帶走什麼就帶走什麼，副秘書長，是這樣嗎？跟案情無關的都可以帶走嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：搜索票是令狀主義，所以有關搜索的對象跟標的物在搜索票上面都有記載。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，以這個連署，它應該是跟偽造連署相關的文件，對不對？比如今天搜索臺北市黨部，你們難道臺北市黨部所有的一草一木都可以帶走，是這樣嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個要看個案的判斷，還有依當時申請的時候……"],["王委員鴻薇：我想請問一下，當法院發搜索票的時候，跟案情無關的文件，是不是也可以隨便的帶走？隨便的扣押？我剛才講了，這個很多都跟案情無關，一點關係都沒有的。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，這真的也是要看搜索票中……"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛才所說的這些狀況，我們檢調單位去扣押這些相關證物的時候，有沒有已經逾越了法官開搜索票的範圍？我剛才說了，今天罷免連署是這個選區，但是它去把其他選區的名冊一併帶走，或者以罷免連署的案子，但是有相關的戰情分析，它的戰情分析絕對不是罷免的分析，因為還沒有成立，可能是過去的戰情分析，按照我剛才講實際的具體案例，有沒有逾越了法院所開立搜索票的範圍？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，在個案執行的時候，是依實際上的狀況，在搜索票上面，它的搜索標的不會到、非常特定的一個文件……"],["王委員鴻薇：副秘書長，我們以保障人權來講，即便被調查的，還未經判決的，我們都是無罪推定，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：可以由第一線檢調人員做這樣的……完全由他的意志來決定要帶走什麼就帶走什麼嗎？你覺得這樣的搜索，在臺灣說尊重司法人權，要落實司法人權，這樣是合理的嗎？我剛才講的都是實際案例喔！合理嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：如果非本案扣押的話，後面還是有救濟程序，還是可以經由司法再做一次審查。"],["王委員鴻薇：可是他已經帶走了喔！所以你也不敢講這是合理的嘛，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我要講的就是在這一波整個的搜索裡面，我們看到不同的地檢署，講白話就是殺紅了眼，而法務部或調查局完全沒有做任何的節制，即便在立法院裡面我們已經提出有這些疑慮，但是他們顯然覺得沒有什麼關係。","你今天如此對一個在野黨，對一般的升斗小民何嘗不是如此呢？你只要拿了一個搜索票進去，搜索票是萬能的嗎？你想要扣什麼證物就扣什麼證物嗎？無關的你也可以這樣子去扣嗎？如果是這樣，臺灣沒有司法人權可言耶！不是如此嗎？","另外，我也請教副秘書長，當然你們一定會講是個案，在昨天臺北市黨部的主委黃呂錦茹抗告失敗，當然這是個案，但是在你們的新聞稿裡面駁回他抗告的理由，其中有一部分引起了非常多的討論，裡面說黃呂錦茹涉嫌刑法……然後有一個重點，我用紅色匡起來，「且被告與本案其餘共犯間，關於政治立場及本案犯刑部分，均有利害關係」，所以大家的質疑是今天要不要羈押他，難道政治立場也是一個考量的重點嗎？","按照你們的新聞稿，其中抗告駁回的理由是他們之間的政治立場，也就是說，不管是檢察官也好或是法官也好，當他們決定要不要羈押他的時候，他們要先了解當事人跟其他被告的政治立場，如果覺得你們相似、一樣的話，這也作為羈押的理由，是不是如此？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，這確實是個案，但依文字上的解讀，當事人並不是因為政治立場所以受到羈押與否的決定，我想這個文字脈絡上並沒有這樣的意思。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們都放在新聞稿了耶！我相信這個判決書一定更「落落長」，新聞稿是要擷取其中之精華啊！今天提到他的政治立場，這是怎麼樣？自證這次辦案有政治立場的考量嗎？這是法官也自證在決定要不要駁回他抗告的時候，也會考量當事人的政治立場嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，法官不管是依憲法或是依法官法，他絕對是獨立審判，是要超出政黨屬性還有政治立場的……"],["王委員鴻薇：其實我也知道在這邊得不到你們的回話，因為你們也會想這個到底怎麼回答。我只是覺得不管檢調或是法院可以不演到這種程度嗎？連政治立場都可以放到抗告的新聞稿裡面，大喇喇的向上表忠是不是？以我來看，這是要向上表忠的一個新聞稿啊！因為我知道黃呂錦茹的政治立場。","太扯了！司法應該是皇后的貞操，但是你們現在的操作，司法現在變成皇帝的貞操了，有貞操可言嗎？在這一連串的事件裡面，你們的操作非常粗暴，而且完全雙標，如果你們覺得不以為意，即便是基層的人這樣的搞法，你們還覺得可以護航，那麼臺灣的司法人權在這次案子裡面真的完全被踐踏。我覺得大家都難得可以在高官上做一些事情，但是如果今天把司法人權做的讓大家看不起，我覺得這其實是很悲哀的事情，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","接下來請陳冠廷、陳冠廷，陳冠廷不在。","沈發惠、沈發惠，沈發惠不在。","郭昱晴、郭昱晴，郭昱晴不在。","現在請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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給我一點時間就是半年前我們就開始做這件事情 按照規定然後我們列出來的名單 希望它能夠被大家接受大家指的就是文化界 還有審查組接受所以我名單其實經過行政院同意之後 開始一一去邀約"},{"start":367.506,"end":386.822,"text":"在這裡我要跟你講一個我很心酸的心情就是本來所有人接到電話應該是高高興興可以當到這個董監事對不對委員你也知道還好啦沒有人很高興啦因為這都是一個非常辛苦的一個工作那現在目前結果是怎麼樣結果就是我要不到人啊"},{"start":388.423,"end":413.893,"text":"你現在邀不到人是不是我一個一個電話打去他家裡談理由是什麼理由就是他不一定會被選上啊如果我電話打去他就是的話我想我就一個禮拜內就把這個團湊起來所以很多人不願意這樣部分是因為他不見得會選上可能因為我們現在的審查委員會裡面有不同的意見歡迎打電話然後再經過這樣子把名單都放出來然後自己的名字在委員會裡面被拼了互相來這樣去做處理的時候你講到重點嘛"},{"start":416.634,"end":424.377,"text":"為什麼他 要是社會上很有名望的人為什麼要把名字擺在上面那你怎麼辦呢 因為我還是要提醒我當然怎麼辦 我就是一直求啊那你求到什麼時候 我還是要提醒喔請放心5月19號就要接滿了對啊 我現在只差一兩個啦"},{"start":433.261,"end":455.92,"text":"你現在差一兩個一兩個對啊我求到現在為止你不曉得我多麼辛苦的去拜託他們說好那我們就來看一下吧因為我還是要提醒啊因為第七屆五月五號的時候公布五月九號就開審查會很短的時間而且你第一次審查沒通過你還有第二次到第三次每天就對這些人來說就像零吃一樣問題是過去就審查過好幾年啊是啦是啦"},{"start":456.46,"end":472.594,"text":"那個是多麼羞辱的我多麼期望這一次我們兩黨之間的派出來的議員讓我一次就過所以呢我還是要提醒五月九號五月十九號就馬上如果沒有的話我們真的有些時候不知道你有這麼多努力還好利用這個時間讓你講出我的辛酸事否則我們都會認為過了五月十九號是不是要讓原幫人馬再繼續來演任這個東西對很多人來說對公視來說公視上來這個董建市名單一向都是一個非常困難難產的"},{"start":484.104,"end":488.909,"text":"這個層面啦所以你保證就是應該在5月19號之前應該會有個明朗的一個結果就對了只差一兩個而且我在這裡懇求所有的審議委員不要像過去一樣一直羞辱的方式去刪掉一些人那些人實在是很糗因為這些人都是社會很有名望的人"},{"start":504.486,"end":510.067,"text":"跟這個評審委員已經不斷在呼籲了我們很快再來提到那上次我有提到的華氏為了要出租進行這個整裝那我真的是覺得目前來說是搞個大罷免那華氏在搞大搬遷為什麼我特別提出來因為大樓整裝必須要有試裝的許可但是因為台中星光三月的事件所以說引發很多人就需要有嚴格的再來審查但是這一次華氏被檢舉了"},{"start":530.452,"end":545.467,"text":"因为他们认为对照原始的设计图累积加罚的话可能会受到一个罚款这些还不包括华氏大楼的六七八楼为了要对外租赁然后开始要隔间所以说预估总经费要七八百万了"},{"start":546.989,"end":564.606,"text":"这个部长我觉得这有点本末倒置我们应该关心的应该是你的新闻你的节目制作等等那你现在又是搞租赁我相信胡董事长应该非常的辛苦了他为了要让华视起死回生他用了非常多的方法我相信你要租赁也是要减少华视的这样的亏损我同意应该是这样子对不对"},{"start":565.287,"end":568.89,"text":"好然後我接下來把問完你可以一併來部分然後呢你看這一下來花費來說的話租金到底可以回到多少你這整個部分裡面來說到底真的對華市的虧損到底有沒有任何的幫助我還是要說第一季6800萬"},{"start":580.658,"end":606.804,"text":"这一年要到2.5左右亏损的原因到底什么时候可以来止血接下来很快因为等一下跟我们的东西有关然后呢我们也知道华氏不仅是为了要减损亏损不仅有的新创公司有的租赁部分我现在只提出一个因为等一下我们马上就要解冻你们所给我的这个部分当中呢对于新创公司上次我们花了很多时间来讨论但是呢你们虽然给我一些资料但是我还是要请求部长我先请问你"},{"start":609.045,"end":618.297,"text":"我請公視提供新創公司未來三年的現金流量的預估風險管理的機制投資管理辦法你覺得合理吧提供這些應該合理吧"},{"start":619.981,"end":649.281,"text":"因為目前還沒有通過所以他沒有辦法寫出這個東西吧怎麼可能你要預估你成立一個公司你只要告訴我未來三年怎麼可以說沒有辦法這是一個預估雖然新創公司是華資投資51%公視49%但是公視占華視的股權83%所以不是只有你表象上裡面只有49%我覺得對一個新創公司對一個公司的部分這個新創公司我覺得要求這些東西來做不是不解凍但是解凍要有前提就是我要看到這個"},{"start":650.241,"end":665.76,"text":"一個比較是可以讓我們覺得未來不要再困屬消息所以我只問部長合不合理嗎提供這些合不合理嗎應該他董事會都還沒有通過這個案子董事會還沒有通過但是你要跟我們講這個東西我們現在目前是凍結的"},{"start":667.109,"end":686.404,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個案子基本上來講是華氏的部分通過公視 您監理的是公視公視董事會還沒有通過而且公視董事會並沒有放在預算裡面所以你這個部分目前為止來說可是目前正是在我們的解凍案當中他沒有放在預算裡面"},{"start":686.804,"end":702.578,"text":"所以说呢这个部分里面好那我们现在只能说如果是这个东西提供的话如果要让这个部分来提供的话我必须要看到这三个我才有办法让这个新创公司的未来的一个发展我才有一个依据才可以有办法来做一个讨论我觉得这个东西是算合理吧可以吧"},{"start":704.11,"end":731.157,"text":"那我们接下来还有一个还有一个就是有关台湾Plus那个主席我知道后面来说的话我还是强调台湾Plus有很多人有意见等一下我们解冻案也会稍微看到一些项目要合理完全同意因为我们在委员会里面对这个东西做了非常多的一个讨论我只说很多员工的爆料还有我们说看到的一些我死死的问题我必须很遗憾的说没有人在事后来跟我"},{"start":732.217,"end":744.662,"text":"報告這些狀況到底處理狀況怎麼樣面對這樣子等下的解凍案我希望利用空檔的時間可以讓我多了解我們可以節省彼此的時間這一點應該是台灣plus或是公視可以做到的對不對好感謝好謝謝柯思恩委員部長請回我們在陳秀寶委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":299,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（10時14分）好，謝謝，我們請部長。"],["主席：好，有請部長。"],["李部長遠：柯委員你好。"],["柯委員志恩：部長好。剛剛聽到葛委員問你有關中央社的問題，顯然中央社目前新任社長的一些未來走向，跟你剛剛所回應有關於中央社的宗旨跟目標是有一點點落差，不過這個部分，我們等一下在審預算、在解凍案的時候，我們再一一來做討教。在沒有進入解凍案之前，我先用一個比較大的方向來請教部長，我們看一下這個數據，政府的文化支出，部長你知道嗎？在10年當中實際上是增加100億的，數據可以顯示出來，但是比較可惜的是，占政府總預算的比率是略降的，所以表示我們對文化這一塊來說，顯然這10年當中政府的看重度不如我們所看到的。接下來我們再來看一個，通常文化部的預算很多是在做獎補助的，從2013年56億，到2024年可以增加到193億，它的增幅是244%，膨脹大概是3.45倍，我想部長看到這個，你可以說因為很多的人事成本還有很多的技術都會膨脹，這沒有問題，但是膨脹到3.45倍，很顯然我們的補助是逐年在增加的。好，既然在逐年增加當中，我們就要問這麼大量的補助到底成效會在什麼地方？那我們就從很多不同的面向可以一一去看，部長，近5年來我們休閒、文化跟教育支出大概占家庭消費支出比率是下降，也就是大家……即使我們花了這麼多錢來做一些補助、來做一些獎勵，但是大家因為很多不同的因素，對於這樣的開銷是下降的。我們的電影的參與率從2016年基本上是47%，中間當然是經過新冠肺炎的關係，可是到現在大概是35.3%，所以身為電影人的小野部長，你應該看得也非常有感慨吧！川普對於好萊塢，他前天特別提到，因為好萊塢電影太多的因素了，讓他們的編劇以及工作人員大概是有兩萬多個人失業，所以他提出的一個方法就是100%關稅，只要進到美國，不是美國產的，他就給你扣，你建議這種方法在臺灣嗎？有機會嗎？應該不太可能。"],["李部長遠：你說我們會不會這樣做嗎？"],["柯委員志恩：對啊！"],["李部長遠：我們去抵制好萊塢嗎？"],["柯委員志恩：沒有，我是說川普就是大刀一揮，部長，我也相信你不會做出這樣的建議，只是川普為了救美國的電影產業，他對於國外進入美國的，他做100%關稅上面的提高。"],["李部長遠：你說我贊不贊成嗎？"],["柯委員志恩：對啊。"],["李部長遠：那可能川普不太懂電影啦！"],["柯委員志恩：OK，因為電影本來是一個非常多元……這句話你不要讓他聽到，因為你現在還在關稅時間，但他的確不太懂電影，所以才會做出這樣的一個說法，你比他懂很多。但是你看我們的文化參與率給了這麼多的補助，除了視覺藝術比較調升之外，其他部分都是下滑，更不要說國外藝文團體或個人來臺，我們這10年當中場次大概少了一萬多場，全國文化展演不管是場地減少、人口稍微增加一點點，但是每百萬民眾享受的文化展演確實從189個變到154個，所以部長，我們補助參加影展的人次是增加了，然後入選的也是增加了，但是真正獲獎是下降的，當然你也會告訴我因為獲獎不代表什麼，只要能夠入圍就是得獎。但是我還是要提出我們有了這麼多的補助，這些是我們可以用一些數據來做成效上的佐證。所以我們就要問這10年來，到底我們的文化有了這麼多的部分，你身為一個文化部長，可不可以用很簡單的方法，你對於文化涵養的提升，這10年來有所增加嗎？部長。"],["李部長遠：我如果用「文化涵養」這個字眼，我覺得我沒辦法回答你、我沒辦法回答到底臺灣大家的文化水準有沒有變高，但是對於文化部來講，努力要做的部分是能不能提高民眾參與文化的活動，包括剛才講到用文化幣來鼓勵民眾去看表演，我們有青年席位，類似這種的鼓勵……"],["柯委員志恩：因為我給予的是2023年，我希望到2024、到2025年已經開始有文化幣、開始有很多你的政策，特別是你站在這邊、身為文化部長，我希望人次還有計次可以增加，因為這是代表一個我們的努力可以讓民眾更多公眾的參與，但過去10年到目前為止，錢多了，但顯然參與度是逐年下降，這才是一個我們需要注意的很大警訊。","接下來我們要請教一下，公視第七屆董事長於5月19號就要屆滿，審查委員很早就出來了，請問什麼時候新的董監事名單會出來？"],["李部長遠：委員請給我一點時間，半年前我們就按照規定開始做這件事情，我們希望列出來的名單能夠被大家接受，也就是能被文化界及審查委員接受。"],["柯委員志恩：所以呢？"],["李部長遠：名單經過行政院同意之後就開始一一去邀約。在這裡我要跟你講一個我很心酸的心情，本來所有人接到電話應該是高高興興可以當到這個董監事，委員，你也知道……"],["柯委員志恩：還好啦！沒有人很高興啦！"],["李部長遠：No！"],["柯委員志恩：因為這都是一個非常辛苦的工作。目前結果是怎麼樣？"],["李部長遠：結果就是我邀不到人啊！"],["柯委員志恩：你現在邀不到人，是不是？"],["李部長遠：我電話一個一個打，去他家裡談……"],["柯委員志恩：理由是什麼？"],["李部長遠：理由就是他不一定會被選上啊！如果我電話打去他同意的話，我想一個禮拜內就可以把這個團湊起來。"],["柯委員志恩：所以很多人不願意是因為他不見得會選上，可能因為這樣的審查委員會裡面有不同的意見？"],["李部長遠：對！"],["柯委員志恩：你已經打電話，再把名單都放出來，他自己的名字在委員會裡面被互相這樣做處理的時候……"],["李部長遠：對！你講到重點，他要是社會上很有名望的人，為什麼要把名字擺在上面被……"],["柯委員志恩：你怎麼辦呢？我還是要提醒，現在怎麼辦？"],["李部長遠：我能怎麼辦？我就是一直求啊！我就求那些本來……"],["柯委員志恩：你求到什麼時候？我還是要提醒喔！"],["李部長遠：請放心，我在……"],["柯委員志恩：5月19號就要屆滿了喔！"],["李部長遠：對啊！我現在只差一、兩個。"],["柯委員志恩：你現在差一、兩個？"],["李部長遠：對啊！我求到現在為止，你不曉得我多麼辛苦地去拜託他們。"],["柯委員志恩：好，我們就來看一下吧！我還是要提醒，第七屆於5月5號公布，5月9號就開審查會，是很短的時間，而且第一次審查沒通過還要第二次到第三次，每天對這些人來說就像凌遲一樣。"],["李部長遠：問題是過去就審查過好幾年啊！"],["柯委員志恩：是啊！"],["李部長遠：那個是多麼羞辱的，我多麼期望這一次兩黨派出來的議員讓我一次就過。"],["柯委員志恩：我還是要提醒5月19號就馬上屆滿，如果沒有的話，真的有些時候……我們不知道你有這麼地努力，還好能利用這個時間讓你講出來你的心酸史，否則我們都會認為過了5月19號是不是要讓原班人馬再繼續延任。"],["李部長遠：是的。"],["柯委員志恩：對很多人來說、對公視來說，公視董監事名單一向都是一個非常困難、難產的層面，你保證在5月19號之前應該會有個明朗的結果就對了？"],["李部長遠：是，只差一、兩個。"],["柯委員志恩：只差一、兩個？"],["李部長遠：我在這裡懇求所有的審議委員，不要像過去一樣一直用羞辱的方式去刪掉一些人，那些人實在是很糗，這些人都是社會上很有名望的人。"],["柯委員志恩：部長跟評審委員已經不斷呼籲，我們很快再來提到。"],["李部長遠：好。"],["柯委員志恩：上次我有提到的，華視為了要出租而進行整裝，我真的覺得目前是搞大罷免，而華視是在搞大搬遷。為什麼我要特別提出來？因為大樓整裝必須要有室裝許可，但由於臺中新光三越的事件，所以引發很多人的注意，就需要有嚴格的審查。這一次華視被檢舉了，因為他們認為對照原始的設計圖累積加罰的話可能會受到罰款，這些還不包括華視大樓的六、七、八樓為了對外租賃要開始隔間，預估總經費要七、八百萬。部長，我覺得這有點本末倒置，該關心的應該是新聞及節目製作等等，但它現在又搞租賃，我相信胡董事長應該非常辛苦，他為了要讓華視起死回生用了非常多的方法，我相信他要租賃也是要減少華視的虧損，我同意，應該是這樣子，對不對？我接下來把問題問完，你可以再一併回答。以這些花費來說的話，租金到底可以回收多少，整個部分對華視的虧損到底有沒有任何的幫助？我還是要說，第一季是虧損6,800萬，一年要到2.5億左右，虧損的原因及到底什麼時候可以止血？","接下來很快，因為等一下跟我們的討論有關，我們知道華視為了要減損虧損，不僅有新創公司還有租賃的部分，我現在只提出一個，因為等一下我們馬上就要解凍。你們給我的這個資料當中，對於新創公司，上次我們花了很多時間來討論，你們雖然給我一些資料，但是我還是要請求部長，我先請問你，我請公視提供新創公司未來三年現金流量的預估、風險管理的機制、投資管理的辦法，你覺得提供這些應該合理吧？"],["李部長遠：因為目前還沒有通過，所以它沒有辦法寫出這些東西。"],["柯委員志恩：怎麼可能？它要預估啊！成立一個公司，總要告訴大家它未來三年的規劃，怎麼可以說沒有辦法？這是一個預估，雖然新創公司是華視投資51%、公視49%，但是公視占華視的股權83%，所以不是只有表象上面的49%。我覺得對一個新創公司來說，雖然它是新創公司，但我覺得也應要求做這些東西，不是不解凍，但是解凍要有前提，就是我要看到資料，可以讓我們覺得未來不要再虧損下去。我只問部長，提供這些合不合理？"],["李部長遠：應該它的董事會都還沒有通過這個案子。"],["柯委員志恩：董事會還沒有通過？"],["李部長遠：是。"],["柯委員志恩：但是你要跟我們講，這個部分目前是凍結的。"],["胡董事長元輝：跟委員報告，這個案子基本上是華視的部分通過了，您監理的是公視，公視董事會還沒有通過，而且公視董事會並沒有放在預算裡面。"],["柯委員志恩：可是目前這是在我們的解凍案當中。"],["胡董事長元輝：它沒有放在預算裡面。"],["柯委員志恩：我們現在只能說，如果這個部分有提供的話，我必須要看到這三個，才有辦法讓我對這個新創公司的未來發展有一個依據，才可以有辦法來做一個討論，我覺得提供這個東西算合理吧！可以吧？接下來還有一個……"],["胡董事長元輝：它不在預算裡面。"],["柯委員志恩：還有一個是關於TaiwanPlus，我還是強調TaiwanPlus很多人有意見，等一下解凍案也會稍微看到，一些項目要合理，完全同意，因為我們在委員會裡面對這個部分做了非常多的討論。很多員工的爆料，還有我們看到一些我直指的問題，我必須很遺憾地說，沒有人在事後跟我報告到底這些處理的狀況是怎麼樣，面對等一下要討論的解凍案，我希望能利用空檔的時間可以讓我多了解，這樣可以節省彼此的時間，這一點應該是TaiwanPlus或是公視可以做到的，對不對？好，感謝，我們等一下再一一跟大家就教。"],["李部長遠：好。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員，部長請回。我們在陳秀寳委員質詢後休息5分鐘。","接下來請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-10","speakers":["林宜瑾","郭昱晴","劉書彬","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","柯志恩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳秀寳","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","葉元之","范雲","蘇巧慧","黃捷","陳培瑜","邱志偉"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算解凍案49案","agenda_id":"1144601_00005"}}},{"id":"160989","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160989","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e0646300da372dae1fe1c005f00a3db85f75b504e8793ebcb11fa2dab58134a338c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:09:30 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說如果你把營業秘密拿掉的話國家核心關鍵技術又會太多所以現在我想知道說以經濟部的立場因為畢竟法務部是就法論法他會知道這個法律的範圍啊什麼等等的大小但以經濟部的看法"},{"start":123.098,"end":145.061,"text":"跟法務部之後如果要對接要討論這一個法案的時候這個到底營業秘密這四個字到底要留還是不留如果不留或者留的話留的話當然就是跟現行法一樣嘛那如果不留又怕太大有沒有任何的方式可以把國家核心關鍵技術把它怎麼講把它擴張解釋也就是說呢讓它不要被現在的法條受限有沒有這樣的一個想法"},{"start":146.082,"end":164.618,"text":"首先我們針對於國家的關鍵技術這個是部分其實我們國家有國科會在做定義對於你剛剛講的包括先進製程我們就以半導體為例的話其實它整個一個製程或是它一個發展相關多的智慧財產必須"},{"start":167.677,"end":195.26,"text":"要去獲得保障他才有辦法持續的進行領先所以經濟部的立場針對於國家核心的關鍵技術確實是要保障針對於智慧營業秘密的這個部分我們目前為止我們經過內部的討論我們是認為說保留原來的這個條文是比較恰當因為有一些它是衍生性的東西"},{"start":196.101,"end":219.926,"text":"所以你若是把它完全的刪除的話其實對於廠商的競爭力來講是會有些影響的對 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不然它會很廣嘛"},{"start":301.798,"end":325.198,"text":"當然所以這件事情我覺得是值得討論我也沒有一定的答案那就可能因為這一個上次有已經被我們已經先排過一次有討論過了是在不是在國防外交那我再相信在接下來幾個月尤其在關稅談判的過程當中是可能還是會被討論那我想說經濟部可能做這個準備跟法務部等等之類的可能再做好這個密切的討論這樣到最後我們再下結論的時候可能在立法院這邊呢也比較有充足的資訊"},{"start":326.087,"end":345.104,"text":"是謝謝委員的指導我們無論是執行現有的法規或是未來的修法我們會跟相當單位做好配合針對於國家的利益還有包括廠商他自己的競爭力的部分做好相關的這個防備的這個措施對因為畢竟廠商自己的利益跟國家的利益有時候不一定會align所以這是我們擔心的地方"},{"start":345.584,"end":364.778,"text":"再來就是洗產地這件事情,因為我看到,我先講越南跟泰國,越南跟泰國他們最近有做這一個說要加強檢查,然後避免要發放偽造產地的證明書,泰國也有做一些措施。那我看到這個5月7號,5月7號是不是就是明天?"},{"start":365.878,"end":366.279,"text":"第一 防範洗產地"},{"start":382.148,"end":398.18,"text":"我們過去以來包括跟財政部都有很好的配合措施包括加強宣導建立所謂的潛在關鍵的名單然後去監視進出口的這個部分甚至是研發但是若是這個部分做得不確實"},{"start":400.382,"end":414.222,"text":"也可能會影響我們個別的廠商他的產業的發展除此之外對於我們國家的利益也會有影響所以經濟部才會宣布從今天開始我們要自己要做得更好"},{"start":415.544,"end":430.717,"text":"台灣一直是世界各國在所謂的貿易活動裡面是一個我們遵守法尊的這個優等聖我們希望我們自己做更好也不希望說有任何的這個可能性來危害我們國家"},{"start":431.858,"end":447.649,"text":"包括產業的部分對 這個我覺得這一次算是反應非常的快因為畢竟我們現在就是要進入到這一個關稅的談判然後我覺得有這樣的事情我覺得在談判的過程當中是非常的有力那這邊因為我有看到說這個為者罪高跟署新台幣300萬的這一個甚至還可以吊銷"},{"start":451.158,"end":465.617,"text":"還可以吊銷再來就是說它有可能也會有燈載不實的問題使公園燈載不實所以我覺得這是一個很好的措施因為畢竟如果說我們在還沒有修法之前在行政端能夠先做出這樣的措施我認為是很有幫助的"},{"start":465.998,"end":495.311,"text":"他又是有違反刑法的話我們還會移送我覺得這是一個非常好的示範所以我是希望說各部會以後都可以像有如此快的一個反應那我們剛剛講的都是比較偏防堵面就是說我們怕說這一個席產地怕說技術被竊取但今天的題目其實更大一部分是在於說要怎麼去協助這些就是他們畢竟現在有一些台商他們現在也在抱怨因為美國的這些措施所以這些協助的部分我相信僑委會是現在首當其衝"},{"start":495.931,"end":504.104,"text":"那我因為只剩一點時間我想問一下那現在溝通的機制就是說經濟部這邊是怎麼去協助僑委會去幫助這些在海外的這些台商"},{"start":504.731,"end":527.592,"text":"首先我們在各個比如說以東南亞國家為例我剛剛在書面報告裡面有講我們有貿易服務中心那除此之外我們駐外的單位我們的經濟組會跟這個僑委會密切的對接而我們會積極的參與我們僑委會所辦理的各項的台商包括是說明會 聚會去把這些的訊息披露出來"},{"start":528.733,"end":558.204,"text":"因為我覺得這件事情很重要是因為這樣在談判的一個過程當中美國譬如說他們對於自己在譬如說他們的國家裡面他有關的商人他們現在在做什麼樣的措施他們現在在他這些情報其實也都在他們收集的範圍所以如果說我們今天這個溝通越順暢的話巧合會的幫助是越多的話其實對他們來講他們會知道說原來你們現在不只在談判的過程當中你們已經祭出什麼樣的措施你們在地方上其實都已經在協助自己的商人做"},{"start":559.425,"end":582.007,"text":"這個相關的這些應對的措施這個對他們來講會是重要的資訊經濟部非常感謝喬和會對我們台灣的經濟包括各個財商的這個協助讓我們各住在國所有的台商的經濟的發展都有保持充分的動力好那希望繼續維持那剛剛修法的部分就可能再麻煩次長把他帶回去我們再我覺得認為這幾個月應該會是被密集討論的一個議題好謝謝委員指導好謝謝那今天就來不及問喬和會了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":230,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時9分）謝謝主席。有請經濟部次長，謝謝。"],["賴次長建信：委員好！"],["沈委員伯洋：次長好！今天的題目雖然是對僑委會，但是我想其實有滿多的事情可能經濟部更了解，我等一下最後才會問僑委會。","一開始就是有新聞報導白宮官員說，川普對中國的關稅有4個最終目標，包含終止竊取智慧財產權、打擊非法傾銷、遏止操縱匯率，以及減少貿易赤字。裡面當然對我們最重要的應該是第一個，就是竊取智慧財產權，因為臺灣過往也被指控過有這樣的問題，我在去年的時候也有問過經濟部相關的一些疑問。目前來講，我們之前有在整理，這是在日本的狀況，他們有整理各式各樣技術流出的型態，包含海外輸出、投資，用一些合法的方式，又或者透過人才挖角、商業間諜，所以我想要問經濟部幾件事情。","第一個，國家安全法第三條裡面有規定「國家核心關鍵技術之營業秘密」，這一個部分是在保護的範圍。我看到這一次邱志偉委員及黃捷委員想要把「營業秘密」拿掉，理由是如果今天企業主自己沒有把它規範在營業秘密裡面，但我們又認為它是國家核心關鍵技術，這樣的話，就沒有辦法被涵蓋到，因為畢竟規定是「國家核心關鍵技術之營業秘密」，「營業秘密」扣在那邊；不過，法務部就有不同的看法，法務部認為，如果把「營業秘密」拿掉的話，國家核心關鍵技術又會太多。所以現在我想知道經濟部的立場，畢竟法務部是就法論法，它會知道法律範圍等等的大小，但以經濟部的看法，之後如果與法務部要對接、要討論這個法案的時候，「營業秘密」這四個字到底要留，還是不留？留的話，當然就是跟現行法一樣，如果不留，又怕太大，有沒有任何的方式可以把「國家核心關鍵技術」擴張解釋，也就是讓它不要受限於現在的法條，有沒有這樣的想法？"],["賴次長建信：首先，針對於國家的關鍵技術這個部分，其實我們國家有國科會在做定義……"],["沈委員伯洋：對。"],["賴次長建信：至於您剛剛講的，包括先進製程，就以半導體為例的話，其實整個製程或是發展的相關智慧財產，必須要獲得保障，它才有辦法持續領先，所以以經濟部的立場，針對於國家核心關鍵技術，確實是要保障，針對於智慧營業秘密的這個部分，目前為止，經過內部的討論，我們是認為保留原來的條文是比較恰當，因為有一些是衍生性的東西，所以如果把它完全刪除的話，其實對於廠商的競爭力來講是會有些影響的。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，但我們現在害怕的事情就是，以執法來講，有「營業秘密」扣在那邊，它本來就有精準的定義，所以到底哪些叫做「國家核心關鍵技術之營業秘密」，這個是很方便的作法，但如果今天他自己不把它定義成營業秘密的時候，我們該怎麼辦？"],["賴次長建信：這個我們必須要在執法上面跟相關的部會去把它定義得更加清楚。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，因為剛剛……"],["賴次長建信：這個可以落實的話，不但是保障我們國家的產業，對於個別的廠商，也是一個保障。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，剛剛次長這樣的講法意思就是廠商自己當然是想要保障自己的秘密，所以有營業秘密的規範，但因為在滲透日益嚴重的狀況之下，又包含現在技術有可能會被竊取、有可能會被滲透，在這個狀況之下，我們怕的是廠商自己不把它變成營業秘密，如果他把它變成不是營業秘密的時候，在這樣的法條規範上，我們該如何？"],["賴次長建信：廠商會把對於他自己利益有威脅的這個部分取消，當然不排除他可能會有這個原因……"],["沈委員伯洋：對，這個當然就是指廠商不是為了自己，他在為了別人，這個時候到底該如何？我想這也是為什麼當時修法會被提出來的一個用意，但我也覺得畢竟「營業秘密」在執法上面是比較方便的狀態，在各國其實很多時候也都有這樣的規定，但是因為臺灣現在的狀況比較特殊，所以我們在想就算到最後真的要把它刪除的話，勢必還是要把「國家核心關鍵技術」做限縮解釋，不然它會很廣……"],["賴次長建信：當然、當然。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以這件事情我覺得是值得討論……"],["賴次長建信：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：我也沒有一定的答案，這一個上次我們已經先排過一次會議，有討論過，不是在外交及國防委員會，我相信在接下來幾個月，尤其在關稅談判的過程當中，這可能還是會被討論，我想經濟部可能要做這個準備，與法務部等等之類的可能要做好密切的討論，這樣到最後在下結論的時候，立法院可能也比較有充足的資訊。"],["賴次長建信：是，謝謝委員的指導。無論是執行現有的法規或是未來的修法，我們會跟相關單位做好配合，針對於國家的利益還有包括廠商自己的競爭力，做好相關的防備措施。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，因為畢竟廠商自己的利益跟國家利益有時候不一定會align，所以這是我們擔心的地方。","再來是有關洗產地這件事情，我先講越南跟泰國，越南跟泰國最近有說要加強檢查，避免發放偽造的產地證明書，泰國也有做一些措施。我看到國貿署有發布新聞稿說，今天（5月7號）要開始「具結產地屬實」，可不可以把這個政策跟國人說明一下？"],["賴次長建信：第一個，防範洗產地，我們過去以來，包括跟財政部都有很好的配合措施，包括加強宣導、建立所謂的潛在關鍵名單，以及去監視進出口的部分，甚至是嚴罰，但是若是這個部分做得不確實，也可能會影響我們個別的廠商、產業的發展；除此之外，對於我們國家的利益也會有影響，所以經濟部才會宣布，從今天開始，我們自己要做得更好。臺灣在世界各國的貿易活動裡面一直是法遵的優等生，我們希望我們自己做得更好，也不希望有任何危害我們國家的可能性，包括產業的部分。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，我覺得這一次算是反應非常的快，因為畢竟我們現在就是要進入到關稅的談判，我覺得有這樣的事情在談判的過程當中是非常有利。因為我有看到違者最高可處新臺幣三百萬的罰鍰。"],["賴次長建信：甚至還可以吊銷。"],["沈委員伯洋：再來就是它有可能也會有使公務人員登載不實的問題。"],["賴次長建信：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：所以我覺得這是一個很好的措施，因為如果在還沒有修法之前，行政端能夠先做出這樣的措施，我認為是很有幫助的。"],["賴次長建信：他若是有違反刑法的話，我們還會移送。"],["沈委員伯洋：我覺得這是一個非常好的示範，所以我是希望各部會以後都可以有如此快的一個反應。我們剛剛講的都是比較偏防堵面，就是我們怕洗產地、怕技術被竊取，但今天的題目其實更大一部分是在於要怎麼去協助這些企業，畢竟現在有些臺商也在抱怨，因為美國的這些措施，對於這些協助的部分我相信僑委會現在是首當其衝，因為只剩一點時間，我想問一下有關現在溝通的機制，經濟部是怎麼協助僑委會去幫助這些在海外的臺商？"],["賴次長建信：首先，比如說以東南亞國家為例，我剛剛在書面報告裡面有講，我們有貿易服務中心，除此之外，我們駐外的單位、我們的經濟組會跟僑委會密切的對接，而我們也會積極參與僑委會所辦理的各項臺商說明會、聚會，去把這些訊息披露出來。"],["沈委員伯洋：我覺得這件事情很重要是因為，在談判的過程當中，在美國自己的國家裡面有關的商人現在在做什麼樣的措施，這些情報其實也都在他們蒐集的範圍內，所以如果我們的溝通越順暢、僑委會的幫助越多的話，其實對他們來講，他們會知道，原來你們現在不只在談判的過程當中已經祭出什麼樣的措施，你們在地方上其實都已經在協助自己的商人做相關應對的措施，這個對他們來講會是重要的資訊。"],["賴次長建信：經濟部非常感謝僑委會對我們臺灣的經濟，包括各個臺商的協助，讓我們各駐在國所有臺商經濟的發展都保持充分的動力。"],["沈委員伯洋：那就希望繼續維持，剛剛修法的部分就再麻煩次長帶回去，我認為這應該會是最近幾個月被密集討論的一個議題。"],["賴次長建信：好，謝謝委員指導。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝，那今天就來不及問僑委會了，謝謝主席。"],["主席（黃委員仁）：謝謝沈伯洋上臺質詢。現在休息10分鐘，10分鐘後繼續詢答。","休息（10時19分）","繼續開會（10時29分）"],["主席：現在開始開會。","接下來由林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":234,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-11","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王定宇","徐巧芯","葉元之","陳永康","林憶君","馬文君"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長、經濟部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委員報告「美國對等關稅政策對僑\n台商全球布局之挑戰，及我政府協助僑台商之具體策略與措施」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00004"}}},{"id":"160988","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160988","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e06c4e8158c0879a7cc115e7528c8151ef55b504e8793ebcb1131f66945a42017395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"09:51:49 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生活要簡約但他自己在官邸開那個烤肉趴 我比較希望說當然開那個是還好 但是你應該還是要多給警察一些鼓勵啦那我想請教署長 依照社會秩序文物法第63條散播謠言足以影響公共安寧那我想 影響公共安寧啊 這個"},{"start":180.818,"end":205.997,"text":"這個依照實務的見解就是應該是一些不實的訊息嘛或讓聽到的人會感覺到恐懼等等對不對對好那我想請問一下最近有一個議題吵很兇就是那個陳菊走了然後一個問號那警察在4小時內就抓到那現在很多網友就有意見啊他就說哇這個警察辦詐欺如果可以這麼厲害的話大家就不會這麼辛苦那"},{"start":206.557,"end":229.416,"text":"還有人說 現在連提問都不行了嗎那更何況很多媒體 政論節目或YouTuber他們常常說誰誰誰貪污打一個問號從來沒有見到你們查辦耶那為什麼這一件你們可以這樣查辦那另外就是說他今天來詢問一個問題甚至一個公眾人物有時候是可受公平的思想尤其院長這麼久都沒有來上班人民提出這個問題我想說這個到底是"},{"start":232.658,"end":236.264,"text":"違反了什麼法規 另外聽到這句話你會感到害怕嗎 請問署長"},{"start":238.285,"end":265.469,"text":"法務委員我想這個是一個個案那個案的這個狀況如果說是不是一個事實那因為我們第一時間大概就是會了解他的這個網址上的這個人嘛這個人去了解完之後大概會了解他所講的是不是一個狀況一個事實事實我們會如果有一些目的我們會請這檢察官來做一個這個會造成社會的恐慌"},{"start":266.189,"end":286.987,"text":"然後在上面寫了一句 而且這一句是經常性的在各個媒體上常看到但是媒體沒有人被辦YouTube沒有人被辦結果一個小老百姓寫了這句 他還是問到底有沒有這件事情那就被辦了就像其實常常有人寫說金正恩是不是過世西方媒體也常常在報導但是從來沒有人去管這些事情所以我一直覺得"},{"start":287.788,"end":305.768,"text":"因為我們對於警察的信任以及對於社會安全安定感覺會在這幾件小事情上面就會破壞殆盡所以你要知道很多網友在講這件事很多人在講這些事情那這個對警察給社會的安定感整個就毀了原來我可以談天談地但是不能談花嗎"},{"start":307.69,"end":326.902,"text":"甚至他這個可能他沒有別的意思啊他只問說因為當時確實有人在做這個傳說連我自己都聽到這個謠言但是只是我不會上網去問那有人聽到發了這個問結果你竟然要用司法用警察下去處理就會造成社會的不安而且你剛剛說你剛剛講了真偽內容真偽"},{"start":328.923,"end":341.79,"text":"那如果這個要辦的話 那前陣子那個劉四芳談到的租屋補貼 張冠禮帶也被踢破了洪聲翰講的育嬰劉子廷那個補貼也被踢爆了 根本沒這件事林佳龍講的那個護照沒有錢印了"},{"start":344.651,"end":365.649,"text":"後來也發現沒有這個事情然後張純涵說那個中小企業補助都被藍白刪除後來發現也沒這個事那這個不是對社會影響更大嗎那為什麼貴署都沒有去查辦呢這是我問題如果你只講內容的真偽那這些部長這些總統府的副秘書長他們幹的事情是更糟糕更不應該的就問你們"},{"start":366.149,"end":382.934,"text":"不當一回事一個小老百姓你們卻處理成這樣那我跟署長說這一點其實我們是不滿那再請署長這邊了解一下那個局長局長不好意思局長我想跟局長請教一下因為那一天齁那一天我跟你請問了"},{"start":384.674,"end":406.033,"text":"並同待回這件事啦 因為還有包括部長其實同一個問題你們那天其實沒有給到我答案然後局長你甚至你說這個是因為那份公文不應該出現在現場而且你說我沒有看過公文 其實我看過公文啦你可以質疑說這份公文也許不是去領取表格的必要的公文"},{"start":406.593,"end":429.446,"text":"因為第一時間領取的人去問中選會跟他說這份公文要帶所以他們一直認為這份一定要帶但是我覺得要不要帶著去請領這個聯署書這個不是重點而是這份公文是不是應該被扣押我跟局長報告扣押的定義是對於本案或他案的犯罪證物可以扣押第二個對於違禁品"},{"start":430.306,"end":452.638,"text":"這個可以扣押 但是呢 對於非違禁品的東西非本案或他案的犯罪證物 這沒有扣押的依據再來你說那份公文不該出現在那裡 我跟局長報告當天是聯署那個發起人 他們請黨部的人一個人去幫他帶領所以他把身份證委託書全部都交給黨部的人"},{"start":453.118,"end":476.214,"text":"所以你一直說這個東西不該出現那裡 其實這沒有任何依據那個現場是因為檢察官帶隊嘛所以甲官 我以為你講的是事後去了解那甲官他在現場覺得說他需要釐清所以甲官把他扣押回來這個是我事後跟你說 你說這個東西不該出現在那裡我必須跟你講的第一個 他該不該出現在那裡 沒有任何法律說不可以出現在那裡"},{"start":476.954,"end":494.903,"text":"我的東西 我的罰單 我有時候請別人幫我代繳 他可能會出現在他家那如果你認為那個不應該出現在這個我朋友家 那你就說要扣走這其實不符合我國刑事用法的扣押依據這我要跟局長報告 我現在講每一句話 我都說我在國會來 我講每一句話 歡迎大家去檢視我哪一句話講錯 所以"},{"start":496.644,"end":521.608,"text":"局長您說不該出現在那裡 所以要扣回去釐清這個完全沒有法律依據這個檢察官在現場判斷對 我們就推給檢察官 所以說檢察官不應該好 而且更何況是一個合法的公文 他不是違禁品那我在這邊跟各位報告 這個東西根本不應該扣對於不得查扣的東西去進行查扣 這就不對了所以我禮拜一才會引用總統府的例子就像你去這個人家搜索"},{"start":522.248,"end":539.987,"text":"結果他竊盜罪你要去搜犯罪工具結果你把他女朋友寫給他情書一起扣回去想欣賞一下這樣就不對了所以你們說的這個東西其實我是沒有辦法接受就好像什麼來我們再來看一下"},{"start":541.058,"end":568.695,"text":"其實最近為什麼我一直說你們是選擇性辦案因為你就大炮打小鳥違反比例原則啊而且違反司法獨立的一致性所以真正在迫害司法威信的其實是這些人就是選擇性辦案的這些人然後我也跟部長報告一件事情我一直捍衛檢察官的司法官屬性一堆人想要把檢察官司法官屬性拔掉部長您很清楚我一直拼了命的在希望維持檢察官的司法官屬性"},{"start":569.355,"end":594.561,"text":"如果說再這樣搞下去人家會覺得你檢察官都是檢查一體就是直接命令就幹了啊然後跟著政治人物搖擺啊所以他檢察官市長官屬性還能夠維持嗎我們已經岌岌可危了那我們還要再越多這種案子下來那將來怎麼辦然後再來兩位台中市黨部啊被搜索之後扣走什麼扣走贊助"},{"start":596.055,"end":605.05,"text":"名冊 贊助者名冊還有動員名冊還有歷年的戰情分析請問一下這個東西跟幽靈連署有什麼關聯性我想請教兩位"},{"start":608.839,"end":627.011,"text":"這個都是個案的內容我們都不知道到底在現場沒關係你們都說不知道包括宜蘭的那個也都說不知道那我在這邊跟各位報告這些東西其實都跟幼齡連署無關嘛甚至有很多金主他的戶籍就不在那裡根本不可能參與"},{"start":628.192,"end":646.657,"text":"罷免啊所以你把這個東西扣回去只會讓大家懷疑我想說好就算調查官 檢察官沒有惡意你也會讓民眾懷疑說這是怎麼回事為什麼跟幽靈連署無關的這些重要的知識者資料動員還有一些戰情分析全部都被扣走了那你要扣給誰看"},{"start":648.497,"end":664.814,"text":"這你要扣給誰看所以這都會讓民眾非常的懷疑到底司法為什麼跟政治這樣綁在一起就像什麼就像減掉機關啦我今天去查一個公司續開發票那續開發票違反產業礦氣法稅捐寄生法我應該是查他的一些"},{"start":665.655,"end":685.527,"text":"一些帳冊 船票 AB帳 進貨單 電腦是沖銷的名戲嘛 這是我們當警察官的一個基本概念結果呢 你扣完這個之外 你還要把他的機器一起扣回家原料都要把它扣回家 這樣對嗎好 就像說 珍珠 你去查一個珍珠奶茶有沒有虛開發票就一定把他的牛奶跟珍珠都扣走"},{"start":687.029,"end":709.26,"text":"這不對啊 所以讓我想到一件事 我跟兩位報告我小時候很喜歡看漫畫卡通還有周星馳的電影我突然想到 周星馳有部電影裡面那個皇帝叫韋曉寶去敖拜家抄家 扣他的犯罪所得"},{"start":710.103,"end":735.699,"text":"就周星馳他那個韋曉寶把奧拜漂亮的老婆跟女僕都一起扣走了然後還把奧拜的媽媽叫多榮扣回多榮家去去服侍那我以前小時候看這個覺得很好笑看不懂但我現在今天我都現在此刻我終於懂原來這個就叫做病童帶回就是宜蘭地檢署說的病童帶回因為它不是跟本漢無關啊"},{"start":737.076,"end":752.335,"text":"他跟去豪邁家查扣犯罪所得無關啊那為什麼也被韋曉寶併同帶回所以我現在看到的就是這樣不管台中也是這樣 宜蘭也是這樣你扣了很多跟本案無關的東西然後給我一句話叫做併同帶回"},{"start":754.674,"end":779.786,"text":"我到現在還是沒有辦法接受我想說在這個過程裡面甲官他也都是依法行政然後公正貸執法啦所以他到底扣了什麼內容說實在我也不知道我知道局長你不知道因為你們個案嘛局長可能不知道這個的確是一個個案的問題那有沒有扣到什麼這個是現場"},{"start":782.203,"end":810.982,"text":"檢察院來做一個審查 是不是得為證據之誤沒關係喔 謝謝部長的解釋謝謝部長 我想部長跟局長其實你們比較高位階你可能不了解個案扣了什麼 那我就跟各位報告他們會跟我講被扣了什麼那我聽完這些東西的時候 我只覺得不合理那我在這邊跟兩位懇求司法是百年大計跟教育一樣累積人民的信任真的要上百年但是毀掉可能是幾個案子就毀掉那目前非常多人 包括吳子嘉他的每一島民調"},{"start":812.103,"end":832.87,"text":"其實人民對於司法被政治制度介入 其實他的認知的比例非常高認定是如此的比例非常高那這個都不是民進黨口中司法改革該有的樣貌好 然後 我想 其實民進黨一直講求言論自由啦但是這段時間我們看到的 我在發言一個陳菊走了嗎 我要被查辦 或者是"},{"start":834.441,"end":862.338,"text":"民進黨在黨綱裡面說司法應該是跨越黨派 要獨立審判但是我現在其實看不到 很多時候變成是就只跟自己立場不同我就處理啊這給我感覺好像變成這個樣子就是變成是就是像我們最近看到的嘛英國的經濟學人雜誌還有美國那個卡內基自由基金會他們所提到其實都提到了"},{"start":863.423,"end":885.559,"text":"賴政府在這段時間的作為其實造成我們內部的對立那這個東西會影響到美國會不會拋棄台灣的一個重大變數這是經濟學人講的或是他認為說這個東西如果不管會造成東亞地區的兩岸之間的一個不穩定然後會影響美國這都是國外的砸而且這些譬如說卡內基基金會他對美國政府影響力是很大"},{"start":887.94,"end":901.671,"text":"我是希望啦 不要變成是整個 就是說配合的政府政府這樣做還有就是我也不想跟我以前指導我的老師或者是我以前帶的學級司法官我指導他的"},{"start":902.392,"end":924.117,"text":"在公務上面針鋒相對因為私下我們感情都非常好我真的覺得不應該這樣啦那我覺得最近很多人出來覺得不滿或是美麗島民調很多人對於司法被政治介入不滿那為什麼很多人起來反抗我還再套一句周星馳電影講啦他說其實這些 我跟你講這些反抗人的多少不是藍白政黨決定"},{"start":925.754,"end":948.202,"text":"是執政者決定你今天越倒行逆施反抗的人就越多我也是希望不要我們能夠一片和諧但是我一直等不到這一天的來臨然後再來我最後請教局長局長我看到你們調局給我的報告我上次請問你說為什麼韋道文書的案子你要給他選舉查查的和分然後你在那邊給我的理由其中一個是說"},{"start":949.822,"end":967.65,"text":"這跟選罷法有關那我想請問一下一階的幽靈年署跟選罷法哪一條有關請教請教局長第幾條包委其實我那天跟你回答是說我們這是回歸到選舉查查的績效那我們本局的廉政處在112年的10月7號就已經有函班這個"},{"start":970.325,"end":981.05,"text":"法務部調查局113年總統副總統及立法委員選舉查查專案的績效考慮要點這是在112年的10月就已經函班了那這裡面的第19點你聽我說完你聽我說完這裡面的第19點就已經有"},{"start":986.432,"end":998.402,"text":"有明定了 本次選舉當選人的罷免程序及當選人因罷免而辦理補選其績效考核適用本要點的規定所以這個在2012年底就已經定了我完全認同局長剛說的"},{"start":1002.125,"end":1024.584,"text":"但是請問這跟幽靈連署有什麼關係這個是罷免的程序啊你剛剛講的那個是社辦選罷法那個是社辦選罷法我昨天已經有提供這個要點給委員我有拿到你們給我的資料嘛所以我請教你的問題嘛各地檢署在一接幽靈連署都沒有談到選罷法各地檢署喔那這個就是一個罷免程序啊那今天為什麼調查局可以把"},{"start":1026.138,"end":1034.126,"text":"這個東西突然灌了一個跟選罷法有關用選舉查查去合積分然後突然從一個很低積分變成好幾萬分的積分這個是罷免程序當然是跟選舉罷免有關"},{"start":1039.555,"end":1062.338,"text":"來 局長你這樣說 我請教你過往哪一次罷免我們之前有罷免韓國瑜市長有罷免謝國良市長至少成功鎮哪裡有很多鎮長都有罷免請問一下哪一次罷免期間 連署期間你們有用選舉查查何分我說連署期間這個我們要回去我跟局長報告"},{"start":1064.059,"end":1083.265,"text":"來 請問一下沒有案子沒有 所以這一次就是史上第一次嘛這一次真的是史上第一次發生這樣這麼多的狀況那史上第一次罷免嗎是史上第一次罷免嗎我剛念的韓院長 謝市長台東有一些鎮長還有其他人的罷免案那不是都罷免如果按照局長您說的對我們的績效裡面沒有分藍跟綠"},{"start":1086.966,"end":1102.554,"text":"我沒有說藍綠你不要給我誤導話題我沒有說藍綠我只說過往的罷免如果依照局長您講的這麼正正有詞這麼有道理我也認同你結果過往的過往罷免為什麼沒有犯藍綠的話那委員是擔心說你要用選罷法的績效還是委員擔心作弊被抓有績效"},{"start":1111.414,"end":1128.778,"text":"所以啊 沒有你不要再講作弊了 我上次已經講過一次了我說這就好像什麼 班上兩個人作弊啦一個退學 另外一個罰站五分鐘就坐下因為他老爸是教養會長 他祖子是民進黨好 那即使沒有這樣 我們不講藍綠我們報告局長 我們不講藍綠我只是講例子嘛 為什麼 局長"},{"start":1136.84,"end":1160.107,"text":"局長你不用亂扯那邊我只請教局長過往的罷免這麼多次了請問哪一次在連署期間你們讓調查官大規模出去搜索大規模讓檢察官計壓然後再把核分算為選舉查查的核分請問過去哪一次有其實包委員我們其實都沒有大規模在這個節點的同時我們各類的案件我們各類的案件都同時在執行"},{"start":1165.528,"end":1188.343,"text":"過去哪一次的罷免期間的連署你們有用這個方式去用選舉查查和分請教局長就這問題這麼簡單過去都沒有立案是 所以這是史上第一次我要跟各位報告這是史上第一次很多時候啊 就我講的一個公司啊如果你今天突然把績效獎金提高十倍某一個項目績效獎金提高十倍我跟你講"},{"start":1188.743,"end":1216.84,"text":"全公司不會有人做別的事全部去衝那個績效那個獎金的那個項目所以我覺得這個不應該啦就是因為過去沒有現在突然有不是突然有我就跟您報告了嘛是112年的10月7號就已經有這個辦法然後我覺得更可笑的是一階的幽靈連署各地檢署沒有人用選舉罷免法我在這邊跟各位強調沒有人用選舉罷免法"},{"start":1218.854,"end":1239.228,"text":"所以然後你下面跟我這樣講我覺得你說112年對不對報告局長你說112年對不對那你去查一下成功證台東縣成功證證長是什麼時候罷免的我印象如果記沒有錯是去年罷免那為什麼沒有用那你不是講話就矛盾了你不是剛才講嗎"},{"start":1240.589,"end":1257.608,"text":"因為我記得我去年 那時候沒有案件啊不是啊 你有沒有給這個核分跟有沒有案件是兩回事嘛我先說有這個核分我們的調查官沒有去調查偵辦我們是要給他什麼這就是今天我有意見的地方 對"},{"start":1259.129,"end":1282.437,"text":"這個都不用查 這一次開始毛起來查這一次所有案件全部都是檢察官指揮我跟你講 又來沒有人告發我跟你講 多少公務員貪污根本沒有人告發你們有資料就下去查辦我跟你講 局長我知道局長很不高興因為昨天 欸 禮拜一局長回去的時候貴公司就有兩個人打電話跟我說局長很不爽那我說我也沒辦法沒關係沒關係沒關係 局長"},{"start":1286.258,"end":1307.771,"text":"我們需先接受委員的質疑好 沒關係局長 這樣啦齁 您對我不滿我也OK啦不會 報告委員絕對不會我私下像我跟部長 我跟部長常針鋒相對但我對部長的關懷 部長很清楚 他就是我的長官公務之外 他就是我尊敬的長官對您也是 公務之外 我對您的尊敬不會少一分謝謝委員 謝謝委員"},{"start":1309.633,"end":1334.913,"text":"唉 我覺得齁 如果說齁真的我們要去談說妨害選舉 那我跟我在那邊可以告發啊我們選法法104條 你就罷免的部分 你有一些不實的資訊那也會違反104條第一項嘛那我們想了一下 那之前劉四芳呢劉四芳她講 藍白亂砍 租金普帖 後來又說沒有後來又被人家踢爆 那洪森漢 我剛剛講了嘛"},{"start":1337.151,"end":1366.327,"text":"因應留職聽薪補貼 他說被藍白刪光結果後來也查沒有不是 沒有這件事林佳雄講的那個護照後來也沒有這件事張純涵講的中小企業補助款被藍白刪光後來查也沒有這件事那這個他就是為了罷免再添柴火那為什麼104條第一項沒有人辦呢所以是不是我這邊就直接告發然後麻煩麻煩局長這邊能夠查因為既然要處理我們這麼重視司法以及國人我們就這樣做嘛"},{"start":1367.581,"end":1385.726,"text":"那麻煩局長部長那是不是這幾位部長還有總統府副秘書長他虛假訊息就意圖影響到罷免這符合選舉罷免法104條第一項的規定那是不是我們就應該要開始查辦這個事情因為這個是虛假訊息連他們自己後來都承認"},{"start":1387.028,"end":1412.109,"text":"那是不是可以這樣做那一樣我這邊跟各位我們公務上面針鋒相對我該講什麼就講什麼你們也不希望一個國家到最後只剩下一種聲音啦我覺得還是要有人挺身而出去點出問題在哪裡如果對我們不滿我也覺得不好意思對各位有所冒犯但是該講的話我還是會講出來不是啦因為我會收到很多以前同事的電話算了沒關係這個我不講一樣謝謝三位的辛勞謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":749,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時52分）謝謝主席。麻煩法務部部長、調查局局長以及警政署署長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：三位早安！三位辛苦了，謝謝三位對國家的貢獻。我先請教署長，其實我還是滿肯定警政署在打詐上面的努力，警察、消防人員真的就是在捍衛臺灣，捍衛臺灣的並不是什麼黑熊學院或是側翼網軍，我一直以來都很敬佩警察、消防和海巡同仁。署長，最近一直有不同警察局的人跟我提到有一些教育訓練都請一些很奇怪的人來講課，甚至是請一些紙上談兵的人來講課，所以他們就很懷疑他們一輩子都是穿防彈衣、配槍在做事情，結果現在來對他們教育訓練的人卻是根本不懂的。當然這些人是從哪裡來，我想大家都猜得到，我覺得國家的預算不能獨厚特定的某一個團體，請那些外行人來對一輩子配槍、穿防彈衣的內行人講解這些事情，其實我覺得有一點是外行在領導內行。在此跟署長報告，再麻煩署長能夠了解一下。","其次，我覺得最近打詐的問題非常多，這一直是國人很在意的，被騙的金額去年有時候平均一天高達4億，今年最新的數據至少還有兩億多，總統說警察打詐不力，破獲率只有1.3%，但是我在這邊要跟國人報告，其實真正的問題是出在行政機關沒有做前期的控管，署長你認同這句話嗎？"],["張署長榮興：認同。"],["吳委員宗憲：也就是說，打詐的重點應該不是在於最後的司法機關，這不是法務部的問題，也不是警政署的問題，真正打詐的問題應該是出在行政機關，譬如對於Google、Meta等等所投放廣告的控管，但是目前我國的控管真的非常不足，所以導致後面司法機關、檢察官、警察非常辛苦，而且還被怪罪你們破獲率為什麼這麼低，這是不對的。甚至總統不體恤警察，一直說警察要視民如親、生活要簡約，但他自己卻在官邸開烤肉趴，雖然開那個還好，但應該還是要多給警察一些鼓勵。我想請教署長，依照社會秩序維護法第六十三條，散播謠言足以影響公共安寧，針對影響公共安寧，依照實務見解，應該是一些不實的訊息會讓聽到的人感到恐懼等等，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：那我想請問一下，最近有一個議題吵得很凶，就是有人在網路貼文寫「陳菊走了？」警察在4小時內就把他抓到。現在很多網友就有意見了，說：哇！警察辦詐欺如果可以這麼厲害的話，大家就不會這麼辛苦了。還有人說：現在連提問都不行了嗎？更何況很多媒體、政論節目或YouTuber常常說誰、誰、誰貪污，然後打一個問號，從來沒有見到你們查辦，為什麼這一件你們可以這樣查辦？再者，他今天來詢問一個問題，甚至這對公眾人物而言也算是可受公評的事項，尤其陳院長這麼久都沒有上班，人民提出這個問題，到底是違反了什麼法規？另外，聽到這句話，你會感到害怕嗎？請問署長。"],["張署長榮興：報告委員，我想這是一個個案啦！針對個案這個狀況是不是一個事實，我們第一時間大概就是會去瞭解網址上的這個人，之後會瞭解他所講的是不是事實，如果有一些模糊地帶，我們會請示檢察官來做一個認定。"],["吳委員宗憲：署長，這會造成社會的恐慌。人家在網路上面寫了一句話，而且這句話是經常可以在媒體上看到的，但是媒體沒有人被辦、YouTuber沒有人被辦，結果一個小老百姓寫了這句話，而且他還是問到底有沒有這件事情，然後就被辦了！就像常常有人寫「金正恩是不是過世了？」西方媒體也常常在報導，但是從來沒有人去管這些事情。所以我一直覺得，我們對警察的信任以及對社會安全、安定的感覺，會在這幾件小事情上面被破壞殆盡！所以你要知道，很多網友在講這件事、很多人在講這件事，警察給社會的安定感就整個毀了。原來我可以談天、談地，但是不能談花媽！他沒有別的意思啊！因為當時確實有這個傳說，連我自己都聽到這個謠言，只是我不會上網去問，有人聽到之後問了這個問題，你們竟然動用警察去處理，這樣真的會造成社會不安。","而且署長剛剛講到內容真偽，如果這個要辦的話，前一陣子劉世芳談到租屋補貼，被踢爆是張冠李戴，洪申翰講的發不出育嬰留停補貼，也被踢爆根本沒這件事，林佳龍講的護照沒錢印了，後來也被發現沒有這個事情，張惇涵說中小企業補助都被藍白刪除，後來被發現也沒這個事情，這不是對社會影響更大嗎？為什麼貴署都沒有去查辦呢？這是我的問題！如果你只講內容的真偽，這些部長和總統府的副秘書長，他們幹的事情是更糟糕、更不應該的，結果你們不當一回事，一個小老百姓，你們卻處理成這樣！我要跟署長說，這一點其實我們是不滿的，再請署長瞭解一下。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：接下來我想跟調查局陳局長請教一下。"],["陳局長白立：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：那天我請問你「併同帶回」這件事情，包括部長，其實同一個問題你們那天並沒有給我答案，局長甚至說，這是因為那份公文不應該出現在現場，而且你說我沒有看過公文，其實我看過公文啦！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：你可以質疑這份公文也許不是去領取表格的必要公文，因為第一時間領取的人去問，中選會跟他說，這份公文要帶，所以他們一直認為這一份一定要帶，但是我覺得要不要帶著去請領連署書並不是重點，而是這一份公文是不是應該被扣押。我跟局長報告，扣押的定義是，對於本案或他案的犯罪證物可以扣押，第二是對於違禁品可以扣押，但是對於非違禁品的東西、非本案或他案的犯罪證物，是沒有扣押依據的！再者，你說那份公文不該出現在那裡，我跟局長報告，當天是發起人請一個黨部的人去幫他代領，所以他把身分證、委託書全部都交給黨部的人，所以你一直說這個東西不該出現在那裡，這是沒有任何依據的！"],["陳局長白立：那個現場是因為檢察官帶隊嘛，所以檢察官……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我懂……"],["陳局長白立：現在委員講的是事後去瞭解……"],["吳委員宗憲：不、不、不，不對、不對！"],["陳局長白立：檢察官在現場覺得他需要釐清，所以檢察官把它扣押回來。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，這個是我事後跟你說，你說這個東西不該出現在那裡，我必須跟你講，第一個，它該不該出現在哪裡，並沒有任何法律說不可以出現在那裡，我的東西……"],["陳局長白立：所以檢察官需要釐清。"],["吳委員宗憲：我的罰單有時候請別人代繳，它可能會因此出現在他家，如果你認為那個不應該出現在我朋友家，你就說要扣走，這其實不符合我國刑事訴訟法的扣押依據。我要跟局長報告，我在國會以來，我講的每句話，歡迎大家去檢視我哪一句話講錯，所以局長您說不該出現在那裡，要扣回去釐清，這個完全沒有法律依據。"],["陳局長白立：這個檢察官在現場判斷。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，你們就推給檢察官，所以說檢察官不應該。而且更何況這是一個合法的公文，它不是違禁品，我在這邊跟各位報告，這個東西根本不應該扣，對於不得查扣的東西進行查扣，這就不對了，所以我禮拜一才會引用總統府的例子，就像你去人家搜索，他犯竊盜罪，你要去搜犯罪工具，結果你把他女朋友寫給他的情書一起扣回去想欣賞一下，這樣就不對了，所以你們說的這個其實我是沒有辦法接受，就好像什麼？","我們再來看一下，最近為什麼我們一直說你們是選擇性辦案？因為你們就大砲打小鳥，違反比例原則，而且違反司法獨立的一致性，所以真正在破壞司法威信的其實就是選擇性辦案的這些人。然後我也跟部長報告一件事情，我一直捍衛檢察官的司法官屬性，一堆人想要把檢察官的司法官屬性拔掉，部長你很清楚，我一直拚了命的希望維持檢察官的司法官屬性，如果再這樣搞下去，人家會覺得你檢察官都是檢察一體，就是直接命令就幹了，然後跟著政治人物搖擺，所以檢察官的司法官屬性還能夠維持嗎？我們已經岌岌可危了，再越多這種案子下來，那將來怎麼辦？","再來，兩位，臺中市黨部被搜索之後扣走什麼？扣走贊助者名冊、動員名冊，還有歷年的戰情分析，請問一下，這個東西跟幽靈連署有什麼關聯性？我想請教兩位。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是個案……"],["陳局長白立：這個都是個案的內容，我們都不知道到底在現場檢察官他指揮扣了什麼東西。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，你們都說不知道，包括宜蘭的那個也都說不知道。我在這邊跟各位報告，這些東西其實都跟幽靈連署無關，甚至有很多金主他的戶籍就不在那裡，根本不可能參與罷免，所以你把這個東西扣回去，只會讓大家懷疑，就算調查官、檢察官沒有惡意，你也會讓民眾懷疑這是怎麼回事，為什麼跟幽靈連署無關的這些重要的支持者資料、動員還有一些戰情分析全部都被扣走了？你要扣給誰看？所以這都會讓民眾非常懷疑到底司法為什麼跟政治綁在一起？就像什麼？就像檢調機關，我今天去查一間公司虛開發票，虛開發票違反商業會計法、稅捐稽徵法，我應該是查它的一些帳冊、傳票、AB帳、進貨單、電腦等沖銷明細，這是我們當檢察官的基本概念，結果你扣完這個之外，你還要把它的機器一起扣回家，原料都要扣回家，這樣對嗎？就像你去查珍珠奶茶有沒有虛開發票，結果連它的牛奶跟珍珠都扣走了，這不對啊！","所以也會讓我想到一件事，我跟兩位報告，我小時候很喜歡看漫畫卡通，還有周星馳的電影，我那天突然想到周星馳有部電影，皇帝叫韋小寶去鰲拜家抄家，扣他的犯罪所得，結果韋小寶把鰲拜漂亮的老婆跟女僕都一起扣走了，然後還叫多隆把鰲拜的媽媽扣回多隆家去服侍，我以前小時候看這個覺得很好笑，看不懂，但今天現在此刻我終於懂了，原來這個就叫做併同帶回，就是宜蘭地檢署說的併同帶回，因為它跟本案無關，它跟去鰲拜家查扣犯罪所得無關，為什麼也被韋小寶併同帶回？所以我現在看到的就是這樣，不管臺中也是這樣，宜蘭也是這樣，你扣了很多跟本案無關的東西，然後給我一句話叫做併同帶回，我到現在還是沒有辦法接受。"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，我想在這個過程裡面，檢察官他也都是依法行政，公正在執法，所以他到底扣了什麼內容，說實在我也不知道。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，謝謝局長。"],["陳局長白立：他依照搜索票的內容去執法，說實在……"],["吳委員宗憲：我知道局長你不知道，因為個案，局長可能不知道。"],["鄭部長銘謙：必須跟委員報告，這個的確是一個個案的問題，那有沒有扣到什麼？這個是現場檢察官審查是不是可得為證據之物或是與案子有關，而且是按照法官的核定……"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係，謝謝部長的解釋。部長跟局長，其實你們比較高位階，你可能不了解個案扣了什麼，那我這邊跟各位報告，他們跟我講被扣了什麼，我聽完這些東西之後，我只覺得不合理，我在這邊跟兩位懇求，司法是百年大計，跟教育一樣，累積人民的信任真的要上百年，但是毀掉可能是幾個案子就毀掉，目前非常多人，包括吳子嘉的美麗島民調，人民對於司法被政治力介入，他認定是如此的比例非常高，這個都不是民進黨口中司法改革該有的樣貌。","我想其實民進黨一直講求言論自由，但是這段時間我們看到的，我如果發言「陳菊走了嗎？」我就會被查辦，或是民進黨在黨綱裡面說，司法應該是跨越黨派要獨立審判，但是我現在其實看不到，很多時候變成是跟自己立場不同就處理，現在給我感覺好像變成這個樣子，像我們最近看到的，英國的經濟學人雜誌還有美國卡內基國際自由基金會他們都提到了賴政府在這段時間的作為，其實造成我們內部的對立，這會影響到美國會不會拋棄臺灣的一個重大變數，這是經濟學人講的，或是他認為這個如果不管，會造成東亞地區兩岸之間的不穩定，然後會影響美國，這都是國外雜誌，譬如說卡內基基金會對美國政府影響力很大，所以我希望不要變成整個配合政府這樣做，還有我也不想跟以前指導我的老師，或者是我以前帶的學習司法官、我以前指導他的這些人，在公務上面針鋒相對，因為私下我們感情都非常好，我真的覺得不應該這樣。","最近很多人覺得不滿或是美麗島民調表示很多人對於司法被政治力介入不滿，為什麼很多人起來反抗？我還是再套一句周星馳電影講的，他說其實反抗人的多少不是藍白政黨決定，是執政者決定，你今天越倒行逆施，反抗的人就越多，我也是希望不要這樣，我們能夠一片和諧，但是我一直等不到這一天的來臨。","我最後請教局長，局長，我看到你們調查局給我的報告，我上次請問你說為什麼偽造文書的案子你要給他選舉查察的核分，然後你給我的理由其中一個是說這跟選罷法有關，我想請問一下，一階的幽靈連署跟選罷法哪一條有關，請教局長第幾條？"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，其實我那天回答的是說，我們這是回歸到選舉查察的績效，本局廉政處在112年10月7號就已經有函頒法務部調查局113年總統、副總統及立法委員選舉查察專案績效考核要點，這是在112年10月就已經函頒了，這裡面的第十九點……"],["吳委員宗憲：不對，你講這個是亂帶風向，不要以為我聽不懂。"],["陳局長白立：你聽我說完，這裡面的第十九點就已經有明定了，本次選舉當選人的罷免程序及當選人因罷免而辦理補選，其績效考核適用本要點規定，所以這個在112年底就已經定了。"],["吳委員宗憲：局長，你說的百分之百正確，我完全認同局長剛剛說的，但是請問這跟幽靈連署有什麼關係？"],["陳局長白立：這個是罷免的程序。"],["吳委員宗憲：你剛剛講的那個是涉犯選罷法。"],["陳局長白立：這個是罷免的程序。"],["吳委員宗憲：那個是涉犯選罷法。"],["陳局長白立：我昨天已經有提供這個要點給委員，委員請回去看第十九點……"],["吳委員宗憲：對，今天我有拿到你們給我的資料，所以我請教你的問題，各地檢署在一階幽靈連署都沒有談到選罷法，各地檢署哦！"],["陳局長白立：這個就是一個罷免程序啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：好，今天為什麼調查局可以把這個東西突然冠上跟選罷法有關，用選舉查察去核積分，突然從一個很低的積分變成好幾萬分的積分。"],["陳局長白立：這個是罷免程序，當然是跟選舉罷免有關。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，局長你這樣說，我請教你過往哪一次罷免……我們之前有罷免韓國瑜市長、有罷免謝國樑市長，成功鎮等很多鎮長都有罷免，請問一下哪一次罷免期間、連署期間，你們有用選舉查察核分？我說連署期間。"],["陳局長白立：這個我們要回去查。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟局長報告，請問一下……"],["陳局長白立：沒有，沒有案子。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有，所以這一次就是史上第一次嘛！"],["陳局長白立：這一次真的是史上第一次發生這樣這麼多的狀況。"],["吳委員宗憲：那是史上第一次罷免嗎？是史上第一次罷免嗎？"],["陳局長白立：以前沒有這樣遍地開花的狀況。"],["吳委員宗憲：我剛剛唸的韓院長、謝市長、臺東有一些鎮長，還有其他人的罷免案，那不都是罷免嗎？如果按照局長您說的對……"],["陳局長白立：最重要的一點，我們的績效裡面沒有分藍跟綠。"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有說藍綠，你不要給我誤導話題……"],["陳局長白立：對，我們沒有分藍跟綠。"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有說藍綠，我只說過往的罷免，如果依照局長您講得這麼振振有詞、這麼有道理，我也認同你，結果過往罷免為什麼沒有辦，今天的罷免突然變成你要用選罷法的績效……"],["陳局長白立：既然委員你也認同沒有分藍跟綠的話，那委員是擔心我們核績效給抓作弊的人，還是委員擔心作弊被抓有績效？"],["吳委員宗憲：所以……"],["陳局長白立：既然沒有分藍綠……"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有，你不要再講作弊了，我上次已經講過一次了，我說這就好像什麼？班上兩個人作弊，一個退學，另外一個罰站5分鐘就坐下，因為他老爸是家長會長，他主子是民進黨，那即使沒有這樣……"],["陳局長白立：沒有，報告委員，現在的狀況已經不是這樣子……"],["吳委員宗憲：報告局長，我們不講藍綠，我只是講例子嘛，為什麼……"],["陳局長白立：現在是有人集體在教室作弊，而且外面還有公務員在配合。"],["吳委員宗憲：局長，你不用亂扯到那邊，我只請教局長，過往的罷免這麼多次了，請問哪一次在連署期間，你們讓調查官大規模出去搜索、大規模讓檢察官羈押，然後再把核分算為選舉查察的核分？請問過去哪一次有？"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，我們其實都沒有大規模，同時在這個階段，我們各類的案件也都同時在執行。"],["吳委員宗憲：你不要再……好，不好意思，對不起，局長，大規模我講錯了，那我只請教一個問題，過去哪一次的罷免連署期間，你們有用這個方式？就是用選舉查察核分，請教局長，問題就這麼簡單。"],["陳局長白立：過去都沒有立案。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，所以這是史上第一次，我要跟各位報告，這是史上第一次。很多時候，就像我講的，一個公司如果突然把某一個項目的績效獎金提高10倍，我跟你講，全公司不會有人做別的事，全部去衝那個績效獎金的項目。所以我覺得這個不應該啦，就是因為過去沒有，現在突然有……"],["陳局長白立：但是委員，這個績效考核的辦法是在……不是突然有，我就跟您報告了嘛，是112年10月7號就已經有這個辦法。"],["吳委員宗憲：我覺得更可笑的是，一階的幽靈連署，各地檢署沒有人用選舉罷免法，我在這邊跟各位強調，沒有人用選舉罷免法，然後你現在在這邊跟我這樣講，我覺得……報告局長，你說112年，對不對？那你去查一下臺東縣成功鎮鎮長是什麼時候罷免的，我印象如果沒有錯是去年罷免的，那為什麼沒有用，這樣你講話不是就矛盾了？你不是剛剛才講嗎？"],["陳局長白立：那時候沒有案件啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：不是啊！你有沒有給這個核分跟有沒有案件是兩回事嘛，我現在說有這個核分……"],["陳局長白立：沒有案件，我們的調查官沒有去調查偵辦，我們是要給他什麼核分？"],["吳委員宗憲：對，這就是今天我有意見的地方，這個你們之前都不用查，這一次開始卯起來查。"],["陳局長白立：那要看有沒有人告發，有沒有檢察官交查，這次所有的案件全部都是檢察官指揮。"],["吳委員宗憲：又來了，又說是沒有人告發，我跟你講，多少公務員貪污根本沒有人告發，你們有資料就下去查辦。"],["陳局長白立：那是要看有沒有偽造文書。"],["吳委員宗憲：局長，我知道局長很不高興，因為禮拜一局長回去的時候，貴司就有兩個人打電話給我說局長很不爽，我說我也沒辦法……"],["陳局長白立：我沒有什麼不爽，我們虛心接受委員的指教啦。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒關係、沒關係，局長，這樣啦，您對我不滿，我也OK啦，但我們就是就事論事。"],["陳局長白立：不會，報告委員，絕對不會，我們都是為了公事。"],["吳委員宗憲：像我跟部長常針鋒相對，但我對部長的關懷部長很清楚，他就是我的長官，公務之外，他就是我尊敬的長官，對您也是，公務之外，我對您的尊敬不會少一分。"],["陳局長白立：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：我覺得如果真的我們要去談妨害選舉，那我在這邊也可以告發啊。選罷法第一百零四條，就罷免的部分如有不實資訊，也會違反第一百零四條第一項。那我們來想一下，之前劉世芳講藍白亂砍租金補貼，後來就被人家踢爆，又說沒有；我剛剛也有提到，洪申翰說育嬰留職停薪補貼被藍白刪光，結果後來查也沒有這件事；林佳龍講的護照，後來也沒有這件事；張惇涵講的中小企業補助款被藍白刪光，後來查也沒有這件事，這些就是為了罷免在添柴火，為什麼沒有人根據第一百零四條第一項來辦呢？所以是不是我這邊就直接告發，麻煩局長這邊能夠來查，因為既然要處理，我們這麼重視司法以及國人，我們就這樣做。","麻煩局長、部長，這幾位部長還有總統府副秘書長，他們的虛假訊息意圖影響到罷免，符合選舉罷免法第一百零四條第一項的規定，是不是就應該要開始查辦這些事情？因為這是虛假訊息，連他們自己後來都承認，所以是不是可以這樣做？","一樣，我這邊跟各位說，我們公務上面針鋒相對，我該講什麼就講什麼，你們也不希望一個國家到最後只剩下一種聲音，我覺得還是要有人挺身而出去點出問題在哪裡，如果對我們不滿，我也覺得不好意思，對各位有所冒犯，但是該講的話我還是會講出來。"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，絕對不會不滿啦，我們一定虛心接受指教。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是啦，因為我會收到很多以前同事的電話，算了，沒關係，這個我不講。"],["陳局長白立：不會、不會。"],["吳委員宗憲：一樣，謝謝三位的辛勞。"],["陳局長白立：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲委員。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：下一位我們請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 有請文化部理院部長好 有請李部長"},{"start":21.994,"end":26.678,"text":"委員你好部長好今天非常感謝趙偉排今天的相關的議程我想我們現在因應到關稅的變局我們的匯率大幅的波動台灣有可能在這個時間點真的是變窮了所以我想我們相關的預算相關的說明我們都積極的來進行"},{"start":42.392,"end":58.222,"text":"那再來我想要請教一下部長就也跟您說明一下其實大阪萬博已經在4月13號開幕那上一次本席有質詢王實施次長當時有跟次長一起呼籲我們的經濟部不要忽略了我們文化部也是有出錢出力的這個我們文化部這一次光是勞務財務"},{"start":62.144,"end":80.478,"text":"就花費了將近兩千萬大概一千九百多萬這個雖然文化部呢八月才要赴日參展但是既然錢已經花了就必須要達到我們台灣的文化宣傳的效果那既然經濟部好像我們是最近都沒有看到有更多的曝光那我想也許背後是不是經濟部忘了給還是不給機會沒有關係本席希望在此給部長三十秒的時間宣傳一下萬博這個大阪萬博的展覽的這樣的一個文化部的參與啦"},{"start":91.767,"end":97.091,"text":"是不是請布展的重點的這個部分呢簡要的向國內外的媒體朋友還有有興趣的民眾做個簡短的說明"},{"start":99.673,"end":124.275,"text":"那時間是在8月2號到8月20號這個範圍內在兩個場地辦然後我覺得我們很不錯就是很早就去跟日本單地的政府接觸然後有些名稱我們就用我們單地的這個日本文化中心去接觸那幾乎是動員到全台灣所有藝文的可能性表演的音樂的演唱會還有這個"},{"start":126.617,"end":138.991,"text":"繪本漫畫幾乎動員到所有台灣能夠表達台灣文化的特色那台灣文化有什麼特色呢就是我們的包容 多元 融合我們的設計的Logo是一個史萊姆那樣的東西非常可愛它隨時可以"},{"start":144.797,"end":167.526,"text":"變形然後吸收別人的文化等等我預期它會效果非常好至於你剛剛講的經濟部那個或者外交部其實我們都有聯絡希望它是一個整個團隊在做的好很好我想除了萬博會以外這個大家持續期待也希望大家民眾也都可以一起參與那本席認為另外一個非常需要好好宣傳的其實就是我們的國片"},{"start":168.746,"end":185.956,"text":"那部長您上任至今呢一直我是沒有機會跟您談談國片政策構想還有相關的撥話那前幾天有看到您出席這個國片的宣傳造勢活動在致詞當中您有提到聽到國片起飛這四個字心中不免泛起一絲感傷因為這句話您聽了很久"},{"start":188.757,"end":195.118,"text":"這個甚至在20多歲的時候變投身這個電影產業希望能夠讓國片真正的起飛我身為國粉這個不是蘋果的果是國片粉其實對於這樣的一句話其實也是非常感同身受的但是我想您就任也將近一年了其實文化部的電影年報的統計數據我們去年國片的市場是大幅衰退的我想43%的衰退真的可以說是大幅近乎腰斬"},{"start":217.862,"end":224.849,"text":"到2024年剩下263萬人次想請教部長您對自己對提振國片的表現打幾分"},{"start":226.752,"end":255.221,"text":"整體來講那個大家都知道關於電影的衰退是因為OTT平台起來以後大家觀影的那個習慣改變所以整體來講國片本身的確總營業額是下降但是它佔在整個台灣的電影的比例是增加的前年大概是佔全台灣的營業額是7%去年是11%這點我當然是非常焦慮所以必須由政府提供一些投資或者是輔導"},{"start":256.962,"end":276.033,"text":"讓這個產業不能夠消失沒錯我想不能說OTT這樣子我們就放手因為確實您講的這個結果也很棒占比是增加的但是我們還是要有中長期的規劃我們不要被這個短期的狀況打亂正腳那我們本席有向文化部所知想要了解部長對於我國片發展的中長程規劃到底是什麼"},{"start":277.915,"end":291.095,"text":"結果文化部的同仁是用一面A4紙拿來給我們做一個回應部長您可以看一下我不確定這份A4你有沒有看過這是我們的國片起飛的中長程規劃嗎"},{"start":292.958,"end":311.816,"text":"事實上我們其實非常驚訝裡面呢這個一共只有407個字我想您是電影人用這樣的一個方式來帶領國片起飛這會不會變成在您的任內變成口號我相信不會我是您的忠實影迷我剛剛也說了我是國粉我們不希望這種態度去影響我們的國片發展"},{"start":314.378,"end":335.419,"text":"文化部會後能不能提供一份完整的部長對於台灣國片發展的中長期規劃我相信你們有可不可以提供給本席辦公室不然這個407個字說是我們國片中長期規劃我覺得有點太精華了齁這個沒問題啊因為我們這個七點是一個大概的每一個項目我們有非常仔細的那個"},{"start":336.912,"end":363.934,"text":"甚至於輔導政策的調整那為什麼我們問的時候不能提供完整的不是 它太多啦它項目太多我們很有時間閱讀因為這是我們的工作好不好請文化部同仁一起配合我事後馬上提供那我想接下來啦關稅的議題大家也很關心那我想我們這一次的談判代表團呢帶隊的是鄭麗君副院長她過去也是前文化部的部長那我們想要請教一下部長有沒有參與行政院對美關稅談判小組"},{"start":367.06,"end":384.781,"text":"這個部分真的是沒有因為文化產業在目前這一波裡面並沒有被列入但是因為最近因為川普的一句話我們就超前部署各部門已經開始討論未來有可能包括電影100%的這種進入美國等等這些我們就開始做一些預備"},{"start":385.802,"end":397.228,"text":"沒錯我想部長您應該也可以發現台灣對美國來講可以說是一個不折不扣的電影入超大國我們也幫忙整理了美國電影在台灣上映的情況這個數字琳瑯滿目2025年光第一季四分之一就99部收入也不錯"},{"start":405.272,"end":411.213,"text":"這個美國說他們都沒有賺我們的錢我們賺他很多錢他賺我們很多錢在數位的在文化上面結果我們台灣根本沒有賣過去我先講我要給這幾部賣到美國的拍拍手謝謝文化部支持但是我們今年還是目前為止掛鈴的但是這些數據都可以幫助我們的行政院在跟美國關稅談判的時候去講說我們台灣買你很多東西你買了你的文化"},{"start":433.198,"end":438.741,"text":"買了你的內容啊不僅如此啦我們就發現我們這一次的特別條例我們的執行部會裡面完全沒有文化部4100億裡面完全沒有文化部難道我們的關稅變局我們的匯率的這個波動就不會影響到文化人嗎就不會影響到文化產業嗎我想我作為一個再講一次我作為一個國粉我作為一個關心台灣文化的人我相信我們都很關心我想要請教一下"},{"start":461.792,"end":477.931,"text":"这个相关的这个特别条例我们能不能列入进去能不能争取一下然后呢我们现在又看到有这个川普的这个电影税要进来了我们中长期的发展里面有一大堆都提到了这个拓展国外的"},{"start":478.291,"end":489.993,"text":"海外市場這個跨國合資合智全部都是在走這個路線啊那所以現在川普這件事情假設成真我們中長期規劃可能還要修改因為他來台灣做反而變貴了我們去跟他合作他可能不願意全部連電影都要美國製造了所以文化可能會遇到所有跟科技業電子業一樣的問題有沒有要做調整能不能去爭取一下列入特別條例"},{"start":504.758,"end":531.246,"text":"其實你講到這一點它這個真的會影響到我們整個產業2001年WTO美國電影全面進台灣的時候我們國片甚至於跌到佔全部電影的0.3%連1%都不到2001年WTO2003年的時候我們已經跌到1%都不到國片甚至於已經被消滅到2011年的時候"},{"start":533.327,"end":547.463,"text":"國變整個又復甦 佔百分之十六所以我在這裡要替台灣的電影人講話就是我們完全靠自己 努力地突破這個所以您剛才講的是 講到我的心裡的要害就是文化產業"},{"start":548.684,"end":554.329,"text":"並沒有被列入第一波所以我剛剛已經講到我們超前部署我們其實開過很多會就是開始把未來有可能跟美國之間涉及到這樣子的文創產業的一些可能發生的狀況更了解"},{"start":564.176,"end":575.403,"text":"上次我幫王十四次長向經濟部喊話不要忽略我們文化部我們幫你們向行政院卓院長喊話不要忽略我們文化部不要忽略文化為什麼因為這張圖我幫你整理了我們現在電子業科技業我們的實體貿易的第一大的對象是中國大陸第二大是美洲美國文化的情況一模一樣我們的電影的產業海外收入來源一樣第一大"},{"start":589.372,"end":596.52,"text":"是我們的中國大陸第二大就是美洲所以如果美國在關稅或全世界關稅有這個變動的時候我們的文化產業是會有變化的我們一起努力最後一個地方也還是要再請教一下部長最後一塊主題就是我們的主權AI我先非常謝謝文化部之前我們質詢說YouTube繁體中文出不來"},{"start":612.256,"end":624.326,"text":"相信應該是文化部有去幫忙溝通一下現在修復了雖然上不完美但持續改進真的非常的感謝但是我想現在的大語言模型AI的工具都有簡體中文覆蓋的問題因為他們讀了十倍甚至百倍以上的簡體資料我們繁中資料不足我在總質詢在許多部會都提到我們應該要有國家層級的AI訓練資料庫"},{"start":637.677,"end":658.218,"text":"那速發部呢有著手在訂定所謂的台灣語料訓練資料庫的授權條款我想請教第一點這個部長讚不讚同有這樣的一個AI訓練資料的資料庫讚成啊太好了那我想問速發部在著手制定這個台灣語料的訓練資料庫有沒有跟您徵詢文化部的意見"},{"start":658.999,"end":686.389,"text":"有 而且我們已經開始進行整理文化部的東西其實非常多那我們其實還看到有一個寶庫叫做中央社其實中央社社長有跟我們來溝通說他有非常多的語料資料歷史的內容可是我們最近看到中央社的方向好像有點多頭馬車好像一下又說要做電視台一下又要做文化內容我想請教文化部部長中央社的定位到底要是什麼"},{"start":687.543,"end":705.154,"text":"中央社會作為一個歷史悠久的媒體它有兩個很重要的任務一個任務就是它本身的資料保存是非常完整的所以你剛才講到AI這個部分它的確是深負重任第二個它是代表國家的媒體它必須向國外發聲"},{"start":708.118,"end":734.148,"text":"國外的駐點 然後國外宣揚台灣的所有狀態所以中央社責任是蠻重大所以他到底是文字媒體 還是網路媒體他現在YouTube也做 還是電視台他現在好像說要做中央社電視台這個太分散了 會不會力量不集中根據我了解 以前中央社就有做一部分YouTube大概是因為 目前大家在瀏覽的情況下還是很習慣看這種影音的"},{"start":734.648,"end":755.984,"text":"他只要不再違反我們本身中央社原來做的事情的話這個部分我不知道結果會如何但是我一再跟你跟委員強調中央社它最大的任務就這兩個嘛好 這個朝偉已經站起來了希望我們能夠一起加速國家級AI訓練資料庫的設立我希望文化部持續有跟速發部來交流"},{"start":757.185,"end":776.578,"text":"把交流結果三個月內以書面提供給本席我們真的非常關心最後提醒部長啦我們的公眾的錢好像下一頁不見了沒關係我們公眾的錢呢就是應該要給公眾public moneypublic knowledge我們的相關的資料歷史的內容文化的內容我們希望讓AI來訓練讓全世界的AI都有台灣語料台灣資料"},{"start":781.481,"end":796.878,"text":"當然也才會有台灣價值我們的主權才能夠確立這樣可以嗎是 文化主權應該是我們文化部最重要的一個任務讓台灣有文化主權的方式就是您剛才講的AI的內容這點我非常同意我們也會努力做謝謝 謝謝召委 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":261,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（10時1分）謝謝主席，有請文化部李遠部長。"],["主席：好，有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：委員你好。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長好。非常感謝召委安排今天相關的議程，我們現在因應到關稅的變局，匯率大幅地波動，臺灣有可能在這個時間點真的是變窮了，所以我想預算相關的說明，我們都積極地來進行。再來，我想要請教一下部長，也跟您說明一下，大阪萬博已經在4月13號開幕，上一次本席有質詢王時思次長，當時有跟次長一起呼籲，經濟部不要忽略了文化部也是有出錢、出力的，文化部這一次光是勞務採購就花費將近2,000萬，大概一千九百多萬，雖然文化部8月才要赴日參展，既然錢已經花了，就必須要達到臺灣文化宣傳的效果，我們最近都沒有看到更多的曝光，我想也許背後是不是經濟部忘了給還是不給機會？沒有關係！本席希望在此給部長30秒的時間，宣傳一下大阪萬博展覽文化部的參與，是不是對布展重點的部分簡要向國內外的媒體朋友及有興趣的民眾做個簡短的說明？"],["李部長遠：我們的時間是在8月2號到8月20號範圍內在兩個場地舉辦，我覺得我們很不錯，很早就去跟日本當地的政府接觸，有些名稱我們就與當地的日本文化中心去接觸，幾乎是動員到全臺灣所有藝文的可能性，包括表演的、音樂的、演唱會還有繪本、漫畫，幾乎動員到所有能夠表達臺灣文化的特色，那臺灣文化有什麼特色呢？就是我們的包容、多元、融合，我們設計的logo是一個史萊姆那樣的東西，非常可愛，它隨時可以變形、吸收別人的文化等等，我預期它的效果會非常好。至於你剛剛講的經濟部或者外交部，其實我們都有聯絡，希望它是整個團隊在做的。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，除了萬博會以外，大家持續期待，也希望民眾都可以一起參與。本席認為另外一個非常需要好好宣傳的，其實就是我們的國片，部長，您上任至今，我是一直沒有機會跟您談談國片政策的構想及相關的擘畫，前幾天有看到您出席國片的宣傳造勢活動，在致詞當中，你有提到聽到「國片起飛」這四個字，心中不免泛起一絲感傷，因為這句話您聽了很久，甚至在二十多歲的時候便投身電影產業，希望能夠讓國片真正地起飛。我身為國粉，不是蘋果的「果」，是「國」片粉，對於這樣的一句話，其實也是非常感同身受的，但是，您就任也將近一年了，依據文化部電影年報的統計數據，我們去年國片的市場是大幅衰退的，我想43%的衰退真的可以說是大幅，近乎腰斬，到2024年剩下263萬人次，想請教部長，您自己對提振國片的表現打幾分？"],["李部長遠：大家都知道關於電影的衰退是因為OTT平臺起來以後，大家觀影的習慣改變，所以整體來講，國片本身的確總營業額是下降，但是它占了整個臺灣電影的比例是增加的，前年大概是占全臺灣營業額的7%，去年是11%，這點我當然是非常焦慮，所以必須由政府提供一些投資或者是輔導，讓這個產業不能夠消失。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒錯，我想不能說OTT這樣子，我們就放手，確實您講的這個結果也很棒，占比是增加的，但我們還是要有中長期的規劃，不要被短期的狀況打亂陣腳，本席有向文化部索資，想要了解部長對我國國片發展的中長程規劃到底是什麼，結果文化部的同仁是用一面A4紙拿給我們作為回應。部長，您可以看一下，我不確定這一份A4紙，你有沒有看過？這是我們國片起飛的中長程規劃嗎？事實上，我們其實非常驚訝，裡面一共只有407個字，我想您是電影人，用這樣的方式來帶領國片起飛，這會不會在您的任內變成口號？我相信不會！我是您的忠實影迷，我剛剛也說了我是國粉，我們不希望這種態度去影響我們的國片發展，文化部會後能不能提供一份完整的部長對於臺灣國片發展的中長程規劃，我相信你們有，可不可以提供給本席辦公室？不然，這407字說是我們國片中長期規劃，我覺得有點太精華了。"],["李部長遠：這個沒問題，因為這個起點大概是每一個項目，我們有非常仔細的……甚至於輔導政策的調整。"],["葛委員如鈞：為什麼我們問的時候不能提供完整的？"],["李部長遠：不是，它太多了、它項目太多。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們很有時間閱讀，因為這是我們的工作，好不好？"],["李部長遠：是，沒問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：請文化部同仁一起配合我們。"],["李部長遠：我事後提供。"],["葛委員如鈞：接下來關稅的議題，大家也很關心，我們這次的談判代表團帶隊的是鄭麗君副院長，他過去也是前文化部部長，我們想要請教一下部長，有沒有參與行政院對美關稅談判小組？"],["李部長遠：這個部分真的是沒有，文化產業目前在這一波裡面並沒有被列入，但是最近因為川普的一句話，我們就超前部署，各部門已經開始討論，未來有可能包括電影百分之一百進入美國等等這些，我們都開始做一些預備。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒錯，我想部長，您應該也可以發現臺灣對美國來講，可以說是一個不折不扣的電影入超大國，我們也幫忙整理了美國電影在臺灣上映的情況，這個數字琳瑯滿目，2025年光第一季四分之一就99部，收入也不錯，美國說他們都沒有賺我們的錢，我們賺他很多錢，但他賺我們很多錢啊！在數位、在文化上面啊！結果臺灣根本沒有賣過去，我先講，我要給這幾部賣到美國的拍拍手，謝謝文化部支持，但我們今年到目前為止還是掛零的，這些數據都可以幫助行政院在跟美國關稅談判的時候，去講我們臺灣買了你很多東西，買了你的文化、買了你的內容。不僅如此，我們就發現這一次的特別條例，在執行部會裡面完全沒有文化部，4,100億裡面完全沒有文化部，難道我們的關稅變局、我們的匯率波動就不會影響到文化人嗎？就不會影響到文化產業嗎？","再講一次，我作為一個國粉，我作為一個關心臺灣文化的人，我相信我們都很關心。我想要請教一下相關的特別條例，文化產業能不能列入進去、能不能爭取一下？現在又看到有川普的電影稅要進來了，我們中長期的發展裡面有一大堆都提到拓展國外的海外市場、跨國合資合製，全部都在走這個路線，所以現在川普這件事情假設成真，我們中長期規劃可能還要修改，因為它來臺灣做反而變貴了，我們去跟人家合作，他可能不願意，連電影都要美國製造了，所以文化可能會遇到跟科技業、電子業一樣的問題，有沒有要做調整？能不能去爭取一下列入特別條例？"],["李部長遠：其實你講到這點，它真的會影響到我們整個產業。2001年WTO美國電影全面進臺灣的時候，國片甚至於跌到占全部電影的0.3%，連1%都不到；2003年的時候，我們已經跌到1%都不到，國片甚至於已經被消滅；到了2011年的時候，國片整個又復甦，占16%，所以我在這裡要替臺灣的電影人講話，就是我們完全靠自己努力地突破。您剛剛講到我心裡的要害，就是文化產業並沒有被列入第一波，所以我剛剛已經講了我們超前部署，其實開過很多會，就是開始把未來有可能跟美國之間涉及到文創產業的一些發生狀況更了解。"],["葛委員如鈞：上次我幫王時思次長向經濟部喊話，不要忽略文化部，我們幫你們向行政院卓院長喊話，不要忽略文化部、不要忽略文化，為什麼？因為這張圖，我幫您整理的，我們現在電子業、科技業的實體貿易第一大對象是中國大陸，第二大是美洲、美國。文化的情況一模一樣，我們電影產業的海外收入來源，一樣，第一大是我們的中國大陸，第二大就是美洲，所以如果美國在關稅或全世界關稅有變動的時候，我們的文化產業是會有變化的，我們一起努力。","最後一個地方也還是要再請教一下部長，最後一塊主題就是我們的主權AI，我先非常謝謝文化部，之前我們質詢YouTube繁體中文出不來，相信應該是文化部有去幫忙溝通，現在修復了，雖然尚不完美，但持續改進，真的非常感謝。但是我想現在的大語言模型、AI的工具都有簡體中文覆蓋的問題，因為它們讀了10倍甚至百倍以上的簡體資料，我們繁中資料不足，我在總質詢跟許多部會都提到，我們應該要有國家層級的AI訓練資料庫，數發部有著手在訂定所謂的臺灣語料訓練資料庫的授權條款，我想請教第一點，部長贊不贊同有這樣一個AI訓練資料的資料庫？"],["李部長遠：贊成啊！"],["葛委員如鈞：太好了，那我想問數發部在著手制定臺灣語料訓練資料庫，有沒有跟您徵詢文化部的意見？"],["李部長遠：有，而且我們已經開始進行整理。"],["葛委員如鈞：太好了。"],["李部長遠：文化部的東西其實非常多。"],["葛委員如鈞：是。我們其實還看到有一個寶庫叫做中央社，其實中央社社長有跟我們來溝通說它有非常多的語料資料、歷史的內容，可是我們最近看到中央社的方向好像有點多頭馬車，好像一下又說要做電視台、一下又要做文化內容，我想請教文化部部長，中央社的定位到底是什麼？"],["李部長遠：中央社作為一個歷史悠久的媒體，它有兩個很重要的任務，一個任務就是它本身的資料保存是非常完整的，所以你剛才講的AI這個部分，它的確是身負重任。第二個，它是代表國家的媒體，它必須向國外發聲，作為國外的駐點，然後向國外宣揚臺灣的所有狀態，所以中央社的責任是滿重大的。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以它到底是文字媒體還是網路媒體？它現在YouTube也做還是電視台？它現在好像說又要做中央社電視台，太分散了會不會力量不集中？"],["李部長遠：根據我了解，以前中央社就有做一部分YouTube，大概是因為目前大家在瀏覽的情況下，還是很習慣看這種影音的，它只要不違反本身中央社原來做的事情的話，這個部分我不知道結果會如何，但是我一再跟委員強調中央社它最大任務就這兩個。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，召委已經站起來了，希望我們能夠一起加速國家級AI訓練資料庫的設立，並且文化部持續有跟數發部來交流，再把交流結果3個月內以書面提供給本席，我們真的非常關心。"],["李部長遠：好。"],["葛委員如鈞：最後提醒部長，公眾的錢就是應該要給公眾── public money、public knowledge，我們相關的資料、歷史的內容、文化的內容，希望讓AI來訓練，讓全世界的AI都有臺灣語料、臺灣資料，當然也才會有臺灣價值，我們的主權才能夠確立，這樣可以嗎？"],["李部長遠：是，文化主權應該是文化部最重要的一個任務，讓臺灣有文化主權的方式就是您剛才講的AI內容，這點我非常同意，我們也會努力做。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝召委、謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝葛如鈞召委，部長請回。","接下來請柯志恩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-10","speakers":["林宜瑾","郭昱晴","劉書彬","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","柯志恩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳秀寳","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","葉元之","范雲","蘇巧慧","黃捷","陳培瑜","邱志偉"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算解凍案49案","agenda_id":"1144601_00005"}}},{"id":"160986","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160986","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e0636b4e406a5e3d8101c005f00a3db85f75b504e8793ebcb11c30ece9fadaa79bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:55:20 - 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前一輪的頭四個國家我想他有一個用意是希望先談出一個比較具體的型態那麼後面的國家就可以跟著我們這些型態來走"},{"start":353.693,"end":360.294,"text":"根據昨天好像美國總統川普也有特別接受媒體詢問的時候提到說這個禮拜到週末可能就會有具體的一個結果會出現所以我們就看我們這四個國家包括日本、韓國、越南以及台灣我們這四個國家談判的一個初步的結果結論出來那看看我們這樣的結論呢怎麼樣來因應在其他的國家我們會配合的"},{"start":379.778,"end":397.792,"text":"我們必須對這個西南向越南的這些台商有487家好不好好的都關注因為他是這個關稅最高是我想他們現在面臨的困境在這個地方是的是的請回好謝謝我們請經濟部的次長好"},{"start":409.133,"end":425.123,"text":"川普對宜蘭石化產品祭出了二級的制裁那次長川普日前發出聲明將對任何購買宜蘭石油或石化產品的國家或個人實施二級的制裁這個政策對台灣會產生什麼樣的影響"},{"start":428.32,"end":448.086,"text":"目前為止我們現在關心因為關稅的政策對全球的經濟發展的需求有在觀望甚至有比較降低而現在全球的石化包括石油市場整體的價格從上週來看的話是下降的"},{"start":448.826,"end":468.028,"text":"以經濟部而言我們是密切的關注我們包括石油還有包括我們能源進口的這個價格的這個變動我們希望在這一波的衝擊裡面特別是要穩定我們的民生減少廠商的生產成本這個是為我們所要的工作"},{"start":468.528,"end":480.803,"text":"現在川普不管今天我們對伊朗有任何的投資理念他就是要做二等的二級的制裁所以我們去了解我國目前在伊朗還有大約在1400萬美元的進口貿易額"},{"start":483.666,"end":508.582,"text":"雖然不多,但本席注意到川普的用語是從宜蘭購買任何數量的石油或石化產品代表如果1400萬美元的進口貿易必須完全歸零才會免受制裁如果採購核業是廠業,我國勢必要承擔違約的成本,是不是?"},{"start":510.864,"end":530.32,"text":"謝謝委員的指導我們對於石油或是天然氣長短約的配比我現在要問的就是現在要歸零所以免受制裁但是現在如果我國採購的合約是長約我國勢必要承擔違約的成本是不是"},{"start":531.481,"end":543.674,"text":"跟委員說明第一個你剛剛講的這個假設性的這個問題我們密切的關注但是我們對於長短約的部分我們有一個穩定的配比第三個部分是基於"},{"start":546.087,"end":562.836,"text":"這個貿易的信賴的程度我們對於各個簽約的國家或是簽約的廠商我們必須要服從我們這個所謂的商業的基本的原則這個信用度在對於我們穩定的採購是非常重要的一個事項"},{"start":564.963,"end":578.342,"text":"那另外是主席再給我幾分鐘那有關於次長這個部長日前嗆台電的員工看不下去可以離開你認同這樣的一個說法嗎"},{"start":579.705,"end":604.8,"text":"首先跟委員說明我們部長對於我們國營事業包含台電在內所有員工的福利包括薪水是非常重視的所以他上任了之後就要求對於員工的部分不管是待遇 執己的部分來去加碼甚至讓員工有比較好的這個福利的環境那至於說剛剛這個"},{"start":607.409,"end":635.343,"text":"slide上面有提到的這個缺考率或是可能有跳槽的情況其實在各行各業裡面我們看到因為台灣在這幾年因為政府的所謂的穩定經濟的措施各行各業都有蓬勃的發展今天我講的本席想為台電的員工說一句話公道話台電過去一直是所謂有國營事業中的典範"},{"start":636.423,"end":651.392,"text":"那從孫益賢擔任總經理台電一直是最務實的單位幾乎可以說是台灣經濟發展的命脈台電人也一直在台電服務為榮那所以"},{"start":652.614,"end":673.025,"text":"自從民進黨政府以意識形態操控能源政策後台電虧損嚴重加上民進黨積極推動的綠電弊案重申台電卻被迫配合使得台電的光榮感正在消失所以本席想要說的這個"},{"start":674.085,"end":678.686,"text":"有真憑實際的這個事情台電過去一直是國營事業招考的熱門顯像從108年起報考人數不斷減少從108年的2.6萬人減少到114年的1.1萬人"},{"start":694.571,"end":704.102,"text":"今年考生缺考率更高達一半還有不少原子台電員工跳槽到中華電信所以可見"},{"start":705.339,"end":729.985,"text":"你們在台對台電不但是沒有好好的鼓勵他們來給他們一個支持反而郭部長對員工來嗆說看不下去就可以離開這樣的一個對話我想對整個台電的員工來講真的是一個不公平啊"},{"start":730.425,"end":743.357,"text":"委員是否容我針對你的質詢做以下的這個回答首先台電將近兩萬六千名的員工始終以來就是秉持了剛剛委員所講的孫玉璇的精神"},{"start":744.488,"end":763.623,"text":"在為全國穩定供電甚至是包括近幾年為了能源轉型而努力以火力電廠為例對於污染物的排放台電這幾年的表現非常好從過去遠遠超過4萬噸現在是已經降到3萬噸第二個數據停電的次數從1106年的15000次現在降到7000多次這是第一點"},{"start":773.47,"end":800.328,"text":"第二點我剛剛針對你郭部長講的得不得體看不下去可以離開現在我不要講你別的事情現在針對這個問題就好了你還回答我部長一直支持所有的台電的員工看不下去可以離開的問題你認同這樣的一句話嗎對台電的員工來講有沒有公平我現在要你回答這個不是要你回答別的"},{"start":801.434,"end":812.089,"text":"首先跟委員說明台電的員工在公司內部無論是對於促進公司的治理他有很好的工會的資質好"},{"start":815.239,"end":830.741,"text":"任何一件事要面對不管是委員要執行的麻煩你要一一的來對答對員工來講要好好的來照顧是 我們對員工一直是非常好的照顧謝謝委員的指導 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":187,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（9時55分）請僑委會徐委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：黃召委早安。"],["黃委員仁：早。針對僑臺商的困境被忽視，委員長剛剛出訪到日本、美國，本席想請教一下委員長，這一次出訪有沒有僑臺商向你反映美國對等關稅的衝擊，並向你提出什麼樣的協助需求？"],["徐委員長佳青：有，我這一趟行程大約三個禮拜的時間，基本上也就是一個產業之旅沒有錯。首先到日本跑了六站，我先從九州，包括熊本、福岡等地，當地我們確實有越來越多台積電的上下游供應廠商進場投資，還有在地原來的僑臺商確實都有反映，現在的對等關稅讓他們都暫停下單或者出貨的作為，大家也都在等著觀望。由於日本的談判進度也還不知道進口跟出口關稅要如何，所以這部分大家具體的希望是，能夠儘早得到相關確定的資訊是他們的需求……"],["黃委員仁：後續請委員長多關注一下我們的僑臺商，因為……"],["徐委員長佳青：會、會、會。之後我到美國去……"],["黃委員仁：美國提對等關稅政策後，大家主要討論的都是國內產業的困境，但是我國僑臺商對臺的貢獻多元且深遠，最主要的貢獻除了資金和技術之外，還促進臺灣在全球經濟中的地位和影響力，但是面對這一次對等關稅的衝擊，大家比較忽略他們的困境。本席分析美國對等關稅政策對僑臺商可能產生的衝擊包含：第一個成本增加，競爭力下降；第二，供應鏈面臨調整與遷移；第三，市場策略重新調整；第四，被迫投資高成本的美國市場；第五，法規遵循與風險的管理。請問一下委員長，針對以上的衝擊，僑委會可以給僑臺商什麼樣的協助？","本席比較僑臺商投資家數超過百家以上的國家被課徵對等關稅的數額，第一個是歐盟，在歐盟投資的臺商共593家，歐盟的對等關稅是20%；越南的稅率最高，臺商有487家，他的關稅是46%；新加坡有臺商399家，關稅是10%；日本有370家臺商，關稅是24%；馬來西亞的臺商有284家，關稅是24%；泰國有臺商270家，關稅是36%，排行第二；印度臺商有171家，關稅是26%；英國有147家臺商，關稅是10%；印尼有140家臺商，關稅是32%；菲律賓有117家臺商，關稅是17%；韓國有108家臺商，關稅是25%。","此一比較可以看出，在新南向國家的僑臺商壓力都非常大。尤其近年來我國推動新南向政策，去年臺商在新南向國家投資增幅高達57.42%，其中越南的臺商多，但課稅又重，因為它的關稅達到46%，面臨的挑戰最嚴峻。所以本席建議委員長，應該要針對越南等新南向國家的僑臺商制訂政策，委員長常常出訪，也應該安排拜會這一些僑臺商，了解他們的需求，請你說明。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝委員的垂詢。這一次的對等關稅是幾家歡樂幾家愁，有時候危機也是轉機，比方說，相對來講我們的菲律賓臺商說，因為全球對等關稅大家都很高，相比之下菲律賓算很低，就會使得他們現在反而獲得比較多下單跟投資的機會，所以菲律賓的臺商可能在這一波裡面就相對有利。","相對地剛剛您提到的越南，確實在這個過程當中，他的關稅是很高，不過根據我們了解，最近這一個禮拜當中，美國第一波談判的15個國家裡面，前四個包含日本、韓國、臺灣及越南。這四個國家本身的產業結構就是上下游供應鏈的合作型態，所以美國商業部選擇這四個國家作為第一輪的前first four──第一輪的頭四個國家。我想他有一個用意是希望先談出一個比較具體的型態，那麼後面的國家就可以跟著我們這些型態來走。","昨天美國總統川普在接受媒體詢問的時候也特別提到，這個禮拜到周末可能就會有一個具體的結果出現，所以就看我們這四個國家，包括日本、韓國、越南以及臺灣，我們這四個國家初步的談判結論出來，看看這樣的結論怎麼樣來因應在其他的國家，我們會配合的。"],["黃委員仁：我們必須對新南向國家，尤其要多關注在越南的487家臺商，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：是，好的。"],["黃委員仁：因為他的關稅最高，我想他們現在面臨的困境在這個地方。"],["徐委員長佳青：是的，是的。"],["黃委員仁：好，請回。"],["徐委員長佳青：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員仁：我們請經濟部次長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["黃委員仁：好。川普對伊朗石化產品祭出二級制裁，次長，川普日前發出聲明，將對任何購買伊朗石油或石化產品的國家或個人實施二級制裁，這個政策對臺灣會產生什麼樣的影響？"],["賴次長建信：目前為止我們現在關心，因為關稅政策，全球經濟發展的需求處於觀望甚至有比較降低，而現在全球的石化（包括石油）市場整體的價格，從上週來看的話是下降的，以經濟部而言，我們密切關注包括石油，還有我們能源進口價格的變動，我們希望在這一波的衝擊裡面，特別是要穩定我們的民生，減少廠商的生產成本，這是我們首要的工作。"],["黃委員仁：不管今天我們對伊朗有任何投資，現在川普就是要實施二級制裁，據了解我國目前與伊朗還有大約1,400萬美元的進口貿易額，雖然金額不多，但本席注意到川普的用語是「從伊朗購買任何數量的石油或石化產品」，代表1,400萬美元的進口貿易必須完全歸零才會免受制裁，如果採購合約是長約，我國勢必要承擔違約的成本，是不是？"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員的指導，我們對於石油或是天然氣長、短約的配比……"],["黃委員仁：我問的就是現在要歸零才能免受制裁，但是如果我方的採購合約是長約，我國勢必要承擔違約的成本，是不是？"],["賴次長建信：跟委員說明，第一個，你剛剛講的假設性的問題，我們會密切關注；但是對於長、短約的部分，我們有一個穩定的配比；第三個部分是，基於貿易信賴的程度，我們對於各個簽約的國家或是簽約的廠商，我們必須要服從商業的基本原則，信用度對於我們穩定的採購是非常重要的一個事項。"],["黃委員仁：另外，請主席再給我幾分鐘。次長，有關於部長日前嗆台電的員工，看不下去可以離開，你認同這樣的說法嗎？"],["賴次長建信：首先，跟委員說明，部長對於國營事業，包含台電在內所有員工的福利、包括薪水，是非常重視的，所以他上任之後，就要求對於員工的部分，不管是待遇支給的部分去加碼，甚至是讓員工有比較好的福利這樣的環境。至於剛剛這個slide上面提到的缺考率，或是可能有跳槽的情況，我們看到臺灣在這幾年因為政府所謂的穩定經濟措施，各行各業都有蓬勃的發展……"],["黃委員仁：你不要再繞一大圈。今天本席想為台電的員工說一句公道話，台電過去一直是所有國營事業中的典範，從孫運璿擔任總經理，台電一直是最務實的單位，幾乎可以說是臺灣經濟發展的命脈，台電人也一直以在台電服務為榮；自從民進黨政府以意識形態操控能源政策之後，台電虧損嚴重，加上民進黨積極推動的綠電弊案叢生，台電卻被迫配合，使得台電的光榮感正在消失，本席說的這個事情是有真憑實據的。台電過去一直是國營事業招考的熱門選項，但從108年起，報考人數不斷減少，從108年的2.6萬人，減少到114年的1.1萬人，今年考生缺考率更高達一半，還有不少原任職的台電員工跳槽到中華電信。可見你們對台電不但沒有好好的鼓勵，給他們支持，反而郭部長還對員工嗆說，看不下去就可以離開。這樣的一句話，我想對整個台電的員工來講，真的是不公平！"],["賴次長建信：委員，是否容我針對你的質詢作以下的回答。","首先，台電將近2萬6,000名員工，始終以來就是秉持著剛剛委員所講的孫運璿精神在為全國穩定供電，甚至包括近幾年為了能源轉型而努力。以火力電廠為例，對於污染物的排放，台電這幾年的表現非常好，從過去遠遠超過4萬噸，現在已經降到3萬噸；第2個數據，停電的次數從106年的1萬5,000次，現在降到七千多次，這是第一點。第二點……"],["黃委員仁：我剛剛是針對郭部長講的「看不下去可以離開」得不得體，現在不要講別的事情，針對這個問題就好了，你來回答我。"],["賴次長建信：部長一直支持所有的台電員工……"],["黃委員仁：不是，你要回答「看不下去可以離開」的問題，你認同這樣的一句話嗎？對台電的員工來講，有沒有公平？我現在是要你回答這個，不是要你回答別的。"],["賴次長建信：首先，跟委員說明，台電員工在公司內部……"],["黃委員仁：所以郭部長在講這句話的時候有欠思考，麻煩你轉達一下……"],["賴次長建信：對於促進公司治理，有工會很好的支持……"],["黃委員仁：麻煩次長轉達一下郭部長……"],["賴次長建信：好。"],["黃委員仁：任何一件事要面對，對委員的質詢，麻煩要一一來對答，對員工，要好好來照顧，以上。"],["賴次長建信：是，我們對員工一直是非常好的照顧，謝謝委員的指導，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請沈伯洋委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":234,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-11","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王定宇","徐巧芯","葉元之","陳永康","林憶君","馬文君"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長、經濟部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委員報告「美國對等關稅政策對僑\n台商全球布局之挑戰，及我政府協助僑台商之具體策略與措施」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00004"}}},{"id":"160985","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160985","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e06a00bbd5cd81006a26a086056f51b23eb5b504e8793ebcb11f27cb3eae2286e0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"09:50:17 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我請文化部部長有請李部長"},{"start":20.633,"end":33.578,"text":"吳委員你好部長好國人呢對於黃牛票的查緝都相當的關心那我想請教部長因為依照我們文創法屬於文創產業的其實至少15項15項以上相當之廣泛現在有一種樣態是很多是國外的影集或電影的演員來台灣舉辦粉絲見面會像這樣類型的見面會屬不屬於是例如他是電影或電視產業相關的"},{"start":49.884,"end":66.808,"text":"你認為這一點我們完全釐清剛剛我也有講到文創法裡面限制要真正的表演舞蹈戲劇還有演唱會才歸文創法所管那你剛剛講到這種說見面會拍拍照"},{"start":67.368,"end":86.294,"text":"或者別的方式的見面他只能算是廠商在促銷增加他的粉絲的商業行為這真的不是屬於文化部的文篆法裡面規範的他應該是社會秩序維護法這點我們對文化部來講是非常清楚而具體的"},{"start":87.076,"end":91.878,"text":"這個呢 我認為啦像針對這種影視 電影的演員它相關衍生的這些活動裡面也包括有一些是表演我認為它屬不屬於我們文創法所歸納的範疇這應該是在文化部裁量認定的範圍之內也就是說法規並沒有限制但是在我們的裁量權之內所以我認為文化部應該要跟上時代"},{"start":113.306,"end":119.047,"text":"這種影視演員的粉絲見面會其實它數量越來越多尤其是很多是國外的特別來到台灣舉辦這對我們來講也是我們很重要的一個文創產業所以部長你知道最近有一個個案嗎這個個案現在就出現了有民眾發現可能疑似有黃牛票這樣的行為"},{"start":137.532,"end":138.314,"text":"部長你認為這能不能夠來未來研議納入我們文創法規範的範圍之內"},{"start":143.939,"end":169.979,"text":"目前我們的進度是按照原來的文創法裡面剛剛規定的是一定要有表演過程我剛剛一再強調音樂舞蹈等等要表演過程才屬於文創法但是如果剛剛委員講到那個現象我們也可以接受個案的檢舉來做判斷那至於要修文創法這件事情是知識非常體大因為我剛剛一再強調官司把黃流這件事情是是部長你聽清楚我剛剛講的"},{"start":170.72,"end":175.984,"text":"所以我認為目前其實按照既有法規我們在認定裁量上如你剛所說的依個案來看嘛它裡面如果確實有表演的活動行為我們就可以納入文創法來規範目的是什麼文創法當初的設立就是為了來能夠去防堵黃牛票對不對所以呢我希望文化部"},{"start":191.616,"end":198.383,"text":"可以按照現行文創法的法規更去仔細的去分析跟了解我們現在這種影視產業所衍生活動的樣態倘若是屬於我們文創法的範圍我們應當在有黃牛票一律的時候就要開始來關注部長這可不可以做到"},{"start":211.215,"end":229.678,"text":"環流票本身如果它是一個還是回到剛才那個三頁行為它自己有票捐的話它違反的不是我們文創法它違反的是它三頁行為我們可以接受個別檢舉在檢舉中我們再慢慢去了解這個算不算文創所以在個案的檢舉當中如果你們認定它裡面的這個活動確實屬於我們文創產業相關的母花不就可以來關注嗎是不是這個樣子如果說它跟那個"},{"start":238.78,"end":254.253,"text":"那我就告訴部長我希望未來這些個案你們不要說還沒有開始了解個案就直接說這不屬於文創法的範圍你必須要了解嘛 如同剛剛部長所說那了解裡面的內容再來看是不是屬於文創法的範圍倘若屬於我們範圍文化部就當然要來專心好不好譬如說簽名會有沒有唱歌啊唱一首啊兩首啊等等我們會來了解我就是這個意思所以希望文化部要更廣泛跟細節的來了解"},{"start":264.141,"end":282.98,"text":"除了個案以外黃牛票的查緝文化部給我們數字今年三月底我們總共收到檢舉案件是將近一萬件那最後呢這個處於文創法管轄範圍又完備是兩千多件這個比例大概就是四分之一也就是說事件裡面有三件是不符合我們的範圍的"},{"start":284.542,"end":296.565,"text":"那這個不符合當中呢有很多最大宗的你們是認為說他的這個資料不完備不全啊這個部分我們在行政的措施上面能不能透過再來加強的宣導然後讓民眾提供完備的資料讓確實有收到黃牛票影響受害的個案他能夠有一個申訴的空間"},{"start":309.54,"end":324.263,"text":"你是說我們好像只能加強宣導對啊我的意思就是說我認為你們宣導不足啊就是在這一萬件裡面有這麼大量的都是因為資料不全所以根本沒有辦法申訴跟究竟"},{"start":324.764,"end":334.95,"text":"那這個當中有可能是可以救回來的個案有可能民眾是真的因為黃牛票而受害只是資料不全這部分我希望文化部跟我們地方政府可以再來加強好 那關於這個預算的解凍案我們今天要處理的解凍案總共有49案"},{"start":341.494,"end":358.525,"text":"那我覺得呢其中最嚴重的是我們當時在委員會只刪除了兩千萬凍結了五億但是跑到院會去了之後凍結立刻膨脹到了六倍刪除更是這個膨脹的數字更是達數十倍這個我認為簡直是亂山亂洞一通"},{"start":362.538,"end":366.781,"text":"這樣子的結果其實等於我們委員會中心主義整個心痛虛設因為我們在委員會是經過仔細的來討論的其中我舉兩個最不合理的這個公視今年被凍結5億凍結理由是因為台灣plus"},{"start":378.403,"end":406.965,"text":"這個可以說是根本是走錯棚三錯筆 動錯筆太陽PLUS有另外一筆預算那造成什麼的影響呢不只是公視台本身包括台語台小公視的營運一併受影響然後呢我們今年有一些新的節目新的動畫在預算解凍前到現在不敢來啟動那我們公視有很多相關的協力團隊例如跨年度的專案像什麼書畫等等這些到現在都受到影響那事實上真正到院會去"},{"start":408.165,"end":422.294,"text":"這個當時提案的委員是國民黨陳玉珍委員然後後來由國民黨黨團提案 凍結事實上真正跟台灣安排是引以有相關的是另外一筆預算嘛是發展國際數位傳播嘛這怎麼會這個理由跟預算科目根本倒不起來這我覺得非常的可惡"},{"start":423.214,"end":426.476,"text":"不應該出現這種錯誤那真正在這筆預算呢 原列是10億最後呢 被刪減跟凍結加走是6億多 也就是有7乘57乘5 都是要刪凍造成什麼影響這個台灣PLUS本來是由公司跟文化部簽約嘛到現在簽約了沒有 還沒"},{"start":442.103,"end":449.065,"text":"沒簽約會造成什麼影響 台灣Plus不敢做新節目啊都還沒簽約 怎麼去跟廠商簽約所以更不敢 台灣Plus也不敢去找廠商 不敢簽約然後呢 這個我們每日 台灣Plus總是要每日新聞常常新內容這些日常營運經費嘛結果甚至有由公視先行墊付的情況所以這個我認為立法院我們對於這個文化部預算 尤其我剛剛覺得這兩筆我覺得最荒謬的"},{"start":470.37,"end":489.691,"text":"不成比例不合比例原則的煽動它造成的不是幾個數字的改變而是連日常的營運然後整個我們執行過去的這個節奏通通都受到影響今年已經過到五月了到現在今年度的計畫還沒有簽約"},{"start":492.325,"end":516.021,"text":"這可想而知受到的影響之大所以呢我希望台灣Plus它的定位目前是我們台灣唯一對國際發聲的全英語平台我個人也認為台灣Plus它有很多改進的空間但是我希望我們委員會在針對預算的動山的時候第一個理由跟預算科目至少要合一"},{"start":517.102,"end":531.961,"text":"怎麼會去出現理由根本跟預算科目不合的情況相當之荒謬 對不起國人對我們的期待第二個 要提出具體可改善的理由依我現在看到的情況去年對文化部這預算的動山造成的結果不是讓我們業務的"},{"start":533.983,"end":543.67,"text":"進步成長反而是造成我們業務的阻礙所以我希望文化部你們也有責任未來再加強跟立法院再加強跟國人的說明在預算審查的時候就不只要跟委員說明我期待你們在預算審查的期間就可以更積極的向社會來說明為什麼文化部需要這些預算我們打算為國家台灣帶來怎麼樣的文化的進步"},{"start":561.121,"end":579.411,"text":"不只跟委員說明 要跟民眾說明因為他們是真正的民意不希望說之後再有已經預算被錯誤的被立法院動山之後社會才開始了解到原來我們哪些的文化預算已經遭受到災難性的動山 好不好"},{"start":581.801,"end":599.984,"text":"委員說得非常好就是他三道的項目是不相同的那這個是非常荒謬的他去三道公共電視的所有頻道的錢你剛才講的就是真的最荒謬那我們文化部也努力的去跟所有本來對文化部"},{"start":600.985,"end":614.302,"text":"預算結構不太懂的民眾其實我非常努力的去解釋到底什麼是文化預算到底要怎麼用這點我們導致在這一次因為被刪減的這一次的機會 我們的確有努力對外宣導解釋"},{"start":617.29,"end":641.688,"text":"是那我的期待就是未来我们可以在审查的期间在委员会审查期间我们可以再积极的跟民众来说明因为其实很多国人都相当关心我们的政府的预算到底是如何被运用他们也相当关心立委当然是要监督预算但是监督的理由要合理这是国人的标准所以我们可以更积极的向民众来说明好不好好谢谢好谢谢谢谢好谢谢谢谢吴佩奕"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":226,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（9時50分）謝謝主席，我請文化部部長。"],["主席：好，有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：吳委員，你好。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長好。國人對於黃牛票的查緝都相當關心，我想請教部長，因為依照文創法，屬於文創產業的部分其實至少15項以上，相當之廣泛。現在有一種樣態，很多是國外影集或電影演員來臺灣舉辦粉絲見面會，像這樣類型的見面會，你認為屬不屬於比如是電影或電視產業相關？"],["李部長遠：這一點我們完全釐清，剛剛我也有講到文創法裡面有限制要真正的表演，如舞蹈、戲劇，還有演唱會才歸文創法所管，你剛才講到這種見面會拍拍照或者別的方式的見面，它只能算是廠商在促銷、增加粉絲的商業行為，這真的不是屬於文化部文創法裡所規範的，它應該是屬社會秩序維護法，這一點對文化部來講是非常清楚而具體的。"],["吳委員沛憶：我認為，針對這種影視、電影演員相關衍生的這些活動，也包括有一些表演，屬不屬於文創法所歸納的範疇應該是在文化部裁量認定的範圍之內，也就是說，法規並沒有限制，但卻是在我們的裁量權之內。所以我認為文化部應該要跟上時代，這種影視演員的粉絲見面會其實數量越來越多，尤其很多是國外特別來到臺灣舉辦，這對我們來講也是很重要的文創產業。部長，你知道最近有一個個案，現在這個個案就有民眾發現可能疑似有黃牛票這樣的行為，部長，你認為能不能夠在未來研議納入文創法規範的範圍之內？"],["李部長遠：目前我們的進度，按照原來文創法所規定的是一定要有表演過程，我剛剛一再強調音樂、舞蹈等等，要有表演過程才屬於文創法，但是如果是剛剛委員講到的那個現象，我們也可以接受個案的檢舉來做判斷，至於要修文創法這件事情非常茲事體大，因為我剛剛一再強調，光是把黃牛這件事情……"],["吳委員沛憶：是，部長，你聽清楚我剛剛講的，所以我認為目前其實按照既有法規，我們在認定裁量上，如你剛剛所說依個案來看，裡面如果確實有表演的活動行為，我們就可以納入文創法來規範，目的是什麼？文創法當初設立就是為了能夠防堵黃牛票，對不對？所以我希望文化部可以按照現行文創法的法規，更仔細去分析跟了解現在這種影視產業所衍生的活動樣態，倘若是屬於文創法的範圍，我們應當在有黃牛票疑慮的時候就要開始來關注，部長，這可不可以做到？"],["李部長遠：黃牛票本身，如果它是一個……還是回到剛才那個商業行為是自己有票券的話，它違反的不是文創法，它違反的是它的商業行為，我們可以接受個別檢舉，在檢舉中，我們再慢慢去了解這算不算文創，因為……"],["吳委員沛憶：所以在個案的檢舉當中，如果你們認定它裡面的活動確實屬於文創產業相關的，文化部就可以來關注嘛，是不是這樣子？"],["李部長遠：對，就是剛才講到，如果它跟……"],["吳委員沛憶：好，我要告訴部長，未來這些個案，我希望你們不要還沒開始了解就直接說這不屬於文創法的範圍，如同剛剛部長所說，你必須要了解裡面的內容，再來看是不是屬於文創法的範圍。"],["李部長遠：對，我們去瞭解。"],["吳委員沛憶：倘若屬於我們的範圍，文化部當然就要來關心，好不好？"],["李部長遠：比如他的簽名會有沒有唱歌，唱一首或兩首等等，我們會來了解。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，我就是這個意思，所以希望文化部要更廣泛就細節來了解。除了個案以外，黃牛票的查緝，文化部給我們的數字在今年3月底總共收到的檢舉案件將近1萬件，最後屬於文創法管轄範圍又完備的是兩千多件，這個比例大概就是四分之一，也就是說4件裡面有3件是不符合我們的範圍，不符合當中有很多、最大宗的是因為你們認為它的資料不完備、不全，這個部分我們在行政的措施上面能不能再透過加強宣導，讓民眾提供完備的資料，讓確實有受到黃牛票影響的受害個案能夠有一個申訴的空間？"],["李部長遠：你是說我們好像只能加強宣導。"],["吳委員沛憶：對啊，我的意思就是說我認為你們宣導不足。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：就是在這1萬件裡面有這麼大量都是因為資料不備、不全，所以根本沒有辦法申訴跟救濟。"],["李部長遠：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：這當中有可能是可以救回來的個案。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：有可能民眾是真的因為黃牛票而受害，只是資料不全，這部分我希望文化部和地方政府可以再來加強，好不好？"],["李部長遠：好、是。"],["吳委員沛憶：關於這個預算的解凍案，我們今天要處理的總共有49案，其中最嚴重的是，當時我們在委員會只刪除了2,000萬、凍結了5億，但是跑到院會去之後，凍結立刻膨脹到6倍，而刪除的部分，膨脹的數字更是達數十倍，我認為簡直是亂刪、亂凍一通，這樣的結果其實等於我們整個委員會中心主義形同虛設，因為我們在委員會是經過仔細討論的。","其中我舉兩個最不合理的，公視今年被凍結5億，凍結理由是因為TaiwanPlus，可以說根本是走錯棚、刪錯筆、凍錯筆，TaiwanPlus有另外一筆預算，這會造成什麼樣的影響呢？不只是公視臺本身，包括台語台、小公視的營運一併受影響，然後我們今年有一些新的節目、新的動畫在預算解凍前到現在不敢來啟動，公視有很多相關的協力團隊，例如跨年度的專案，像什麼梳化等等這些到現在都受到影響，但真正到院會去，當時提案委員是國民黨陳玉珍委員，由國民黨黨團提案凍結，但事實上真正跟TaiwanPlus營運有相關的是另外一筆預算──發展國際數位傳播，怎麼會理由跟預算科目根本搭不起來？我覺得非常可惡，不應該出現這種錯誤。","真正的這筆預算原列10億，最後被刪減跟凍結加總是六億多，也就是有七成五都遭刪凍，造成什麼影響？TaiwanPlus本來是由公視跟文化部簽約，到現在簽約了沒有？還沒！沒簽約會造成什麼影響？TaiwanPlus不敢做新節目，都還沒簽約，怎麼去跟廠商簽約？所以TaiwanPlus更不敢去找廠商、不敢簽約，而且TaiwanPlus總是要有每日新聞、常態性內容這些日常營運經費，結果甚至有公視先行墊付的情況，所以立法院對於文化部預算，尤其我剛剛舉的這兩筆，我覺得最荒謬的是不成比例、不合比例原則的刪凍，它造成的不是幾個數字的改變，而是連日常營運、整個過去執行的節奏通通都受到影響，今年已經過到5月了，到現在今年度的計畫還沒有簽約，可想而知受到的影響之大。","有關TaiwanPlus的定位，目前它是我們臺灣唯一對國際發聲的全英語平臺，我個人也認為TaiwanPlus有很多改進的空間，但是我希望我們委員會在針對預算凍刪的時候，第一個，理由跟預算科目至少要合一，怎麼會出現理由跟預算科目根本不合的情況？相當之荒謬，對不起國人對我們的期待。第二個，要提出具體可改善的理由，依我現在看到的情況，去年對於文化部預算的凍刪造成的結果，不是讓我們業務進步成長，反而是造成業務的阻礙，所以你們文化部也有責任，我希望未來再加強跟立法院、再加強跟國人的說明，在預算審查的時候不只要跟委員說明，我期待你們在預算審查的期間，就可以更積極的向社會說明為什麼文化部需要這些預算，你們打算為國家、為臺灣帶來怎麼樣的文化進步。不只跟委員說明，要跟民眾說明，因為他們是真正的民意，不希望之後再有預算錯誤被立法院凍刪之後，社會才開始了解到，原來我們哪些文化預算已經遭受到災難性的凍刪，好不好？"],["李部長遠：委員說得非常好，他刪到的項目是不相同的，這個是非常荒謬的，想刪TaiwanPlus，卻刪到公共電視所有頻道的錢，如你剛才講的真的最荒謬。文化部也努力跟所有本來對文化部預算結構不太懂的民眾，其實我非常努力去解釋，到底什麼是文化預算、到底要怎麼用，這點我們倒是因為在這一次被刪減的機會，我們的確有努力對外宣導、解釋。"],["吳委員沛憶：是。我的期待是未來我們可以在委員會審查期間，你們可以再積極地跟民眾來說明，因為其實很多國人都相當關心政府的預算到底是如何被運用，他們也相當關心，立委當然是要監督預算，但是監督的理由要合理，這是國人的標準，所以我們可以更積極地向民眾來說明，好不好？"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員，部長請回。","接下來請葛如鈞召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-10","speakers":["林宜瑾","郭昱晴","劉書彬","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","柯志恩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳秀寳","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","葉元之","范雲","蘇巧慧","黃捷","陳培瑜","邱志偉"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算解凍案49案","agenda_id":"1144601_00005"}}},{"id":"160984","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160984","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e06f71ca7029006d2d31c005f00a3db85f7c49de4876f6fadf4488b4bbe387a048b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:45:02 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謝謝主席我們先請我們許家青委員長"},{"start":9.768,"end":36.382,"text":"委員長早委員長早安對於這個對等關稅的因應措施我想來就教我們委員長那因為這個海外的橋台商遍佈全球那橋委會一直以來都是扮演著整合平台的角色來推動我們海外橋台商和國內公司部門聯繫的相關工作那針對近期因應這個對等關稅的政策橋委會是否已經搭建"},{"start":38.303,"end":57.714,"text":"這個資訊傳遞的平台能夠及時來收集我們橋台商的意見並提供給我們行政院及相關部會來做參考那也可以將我們國內相關的政策是不是也同步提供反饋給我們相關的橋界能夠知道目前國內的情形有沒有"},{"start":58.214,"end":74.224,"text":"有跟委員報告就是在今年的4月2號當美國公布了這個對等關稅的相關這個措施之後呢我們在第一階段4月中旬就已經針對各國的台商會會長先進行了第一次的這個問卷的這個了解請他們先針對說可能受影響的情形來提供一些資訊提示也詢問他們說他們覺得怎麼樣的一個這個"},{"start":87.532,"end":105.977,"text":"服務跟協助方向是對於他們有利的這部分也請他們分別有提供一些相關的資訊所以這個第一步的這個調查已經進行那接下來我們在五月我們也要進行第二階段的調查就是我們會跟所有的台商會包括五月份馬上歐洲台商總會要開會六月亞洲台商總會要開會"},{"start":109.498,"end":112.92,"text":"還有這個北美洲台灣商會要開會還有大洋洲剛好這幾個洲際總會通通要開會所以他們會有非常多的會員以及理監事會都會參加這個大會那我們會藉由這個大會的時間呢就來進行各種座談會以及包括問卷調查所以現在這個都已經密齊的在進行中"},{"start":130.011,"end":146.98,"text":"好 也請我們僑委會要把握機會啦就是剛剛委員長講的這個時間點如果能夠掌握的話也可以相互來把這個資訊傳達是 我們也覺得很重要因為我們海外的僑台商跟國內台商不一樣的地方是說"},{"start":148.02,"end":165.245,"text":"國內的台商是以國內的資金以在本地製造或者在第三國製造然後來輸出到市場端那我們的這些海外橋台商基本上他們是已經早年就移居他國那他們的資金呢都是他們在第三國的這個資金來進行投資但是由於近年來的全球供應鏈的這個變化"},{"start":172.867,"end":184.197,"text":"他們事實上也有很多人除了他在僑居國的這個事業以外呢他在第三國也都有新的投資或者貿易採購等等這樣的一個變化所以受到美國對等關稅的影響跟衝擊確實是相當的大所以這部分我們也會進一步來分門別類分別就製造業或服務業或者相關不同的這個產業來瞭解他們關稅衝擊的影響"},{"start":199.81,"end":222.646,"text":"好 那各國對於關稅的危機也陸續推出因應的措施及紓困的政策包括我們國家也提出編列特別的條例要來強化我們產業的韌性橋台商耕耘各地的市場都能適用當地政府的紓困政策但可能礙於語言方面"},{"start":223.427,"end":244.325,"text":"的這個隔閡或是資訊的不流通無法即使取得正確的資訊那我想就叫我們委員長是否能夠這個和我們經濟部來協助會診即時的更新各國的這個紓困的相關措施並統一官方的資訊給僑界以減少我們資訊的一個落差的情形"},{"start":244.912,"end":246.753,"text":"謝謝陳委員的提醒我們確實目前在25個國家有51個合作的金融機構所以它也可以運用國內31個OBU的國際貸款的業務部門來進行貸款所以語言的障礙應當不會有問題"},{"start":266.078,"end":269.279,"text":"那麼重點是我們因應這一次的對等關稅如果我們比較中小型的海外橋台商因為這樣子的變化需要有資金的融資我們也會規劃特殊的專案讓這些橋台商可以在短期內獲得立即性的這個協助那如果說需要比較長期性的投資要擴大這個投資的金額的話"},{"start":292.365,"end":298.951,"text":"因為我們海外信保基金的陸上限在東南亞的南向國家是250萬美金那其餘的地方是200萬美金我們也會跟國內的金融機構來討論如果他們過去的信用貸款的績效良好事實上他們都可以貸更多並沒有這方面的問題所以國內31個OBU的組織金融機構是可以提供他們更多的資金貸款的"},{"start":321.909,"end":334.524,"text":"好,那就這個信保基金的部分,我們是不是可以比照COVID-19時期啟動對於就有貸款能夠展延的措施,來舒緩企業在資金周轉上的一個壓力?"},{"start":335.343,"end":338.647,"text":"確實我們現在有在因應不過因為現在是90天的寬限期我們也是在等待相關的這個對美談判的進一步結果出來我們比較好針對那個具體的結論來制定這個因應的貸款措施不過"},{"start":355.183,"end":369.126,"text":"初步的方案我們有在規劃中只是還沒有做定案那目前我想對於橋台商如果要移轉投資基地或者是他要對採購的對象有所轉變確實他的資金的調度是會需求會變得比較高所以這一部分我們會盡可能來提供相關的方便或展言展言的部分避免在這個雨天收傘這個我們也會立即的來協助"},{"start":380.669,"end":403.934,"text":"那另外是否也可以啟動一個小額貸款的一個申請小額貸款一直都有,這個沒有問題我們沒有金額上限那這部分再請我們僑委會持續關心好的,謝謝陳委員那接下來我再請我們國發會的我們的高副主委及經濟部的賴次長"},{"start":412.269,"end":432.68,"text":"市長我們副主委早市委好那我先就叫我們這個國發會就這個關稅的還是就這個關稅的問題因為目前我們還在談判當中因應這次關稅政策所帶來的供應鏈重組的趨勢那國發會我們"},{"start":434.261,"end":447.156,"text":"之前游主委曾經表示過,有部分的台商有可能會在這個時間點回到台灣來生產那我想請教我們副主委,預期有哪些產業有可能會回流到台灣?"},{"start":448.734,"end":471.409,"text":"我想我們台灣的那個半導體的供應鏈其實是非常的完整所以我們大概是我們會預期說ICT半導體的相關產業還有現在因為我們在推動五大信賴產業那我們政府也有相關的一些支持的措施所以我們認為說五大信賴產業的相關的軍工啊或者是無人機等等產業有可能也會回到台灣來"},{"start":474.196,"end":490.995,"text":"再請教我們經濟部,若要讓關鍵產業回流到台灣,相信我們政府有責任將國內的投資環境來做好之前我們有提出一個投資台灣的三大方案,現在是不是已經確定可以延續到2027年?"},{"start":493.151,"end":521.261,"text":"謝謝委員 這個部分我們確定是延長但是相關的具體的措施我們會聆聽業者更多的意見之後詳細的規劃再做一個宣布那除此之外的話我們為了改善我們的投資環境我們對接的國發會的六大區域發展計畫不管是從水電包括廠商的投資環境的優化的工作我們持續的在進行 以上"},{"start":521.772,"end":532.124,"text":"好,那我們目前對於關稅的相關政策,是不是有規劃進一步能夠擴大來辦理協助產業回流,有沒有可能?"},{"start":534.544,"end":559.861,"text":"擴大協助產業回流的部分我們對於剛剛所講的三大投資方案的這個部分會予以延長那除此之外的話這個延長的類別剛剛副主委有講包括五代信賴產業包括大健康包括服務業那這些都是我們所關注的一個部分好 謝謝次長跟主委"},{"start":560.903,"end":583.937,"text":"對於剛剛的這個部分,在政策上如果有更新,我在此也請我們僑委會一定要及時的向我們海外的僑台商來進行宣傳,讓他們也知道說我們國內的相關政策已經在做調整了。可以讓他們也可以因應相關的這個政策的變化之後,他們要如何去推動他們的商業行為這樣子。好,以上謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":163,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（9時45分）謝謝主席，先請徐佳青委員長。委員長早。"],["徐委員長佳青：陳委員早安。"],["陳委員俊宇：對於對等關稅的因應措施，我想來就教委員長。因為海外僑臺商遍布全球，僑委會一直以來都是扮演著整合平臺的角色，來推動海外僑臺商和國內公私部門聯繫的相關工作，針對近期因應對等關稅的政策，僑委會是否已經搭建資訊傳遞的平臺，能夠即時來蒐集我們僑臺商的意見，並提供給我們行政院及相關部會來做參考，也可以將我們國內相關的政策同步提供反饋給相關的僑界，讓他們能夠知道目前國內的情形，有沒有？"],["徐委員長佳青：有，跟委員報告，在今年4月2號美國公布了對等關稅的相關措施之後，我們在第一階段4月中旬就已經針對各國的臺商會會長先進行了第一次的問卷了解，請他們先針對可能受影響的情形來提供一些資訊，其次也詢問他們怎麼樣的服務跟協助方向是對於他們有利的，這部分也請他們分別提供一些相關的資訊，所以第一步的調查已經進行。接下來，我們在5月也要進行第二階段的調查，就是我們會跟所有的臺商會，因為5月份歐洲臺商總會要開會了，6月份亞洲臺商總會要開會，還有北美洲臺灣商會要開會，還有大洋洲，剛好這幾個洲際總會通通要開會，所以他們會有非常多的會員以及理監事會都會參加這個大會，我們會藉由這個大會的時間來進行各種座談會，以及包括問卷調查，所以現在這個都已經密集的在進行中。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，也請僑委會要把握機會，剛剛委員長講的這個時間點，如果能夠掌握的話，也可以相互把這個資訊傳達。"],["徐委員長佳青：是，我們也覺得很重要，因為海外僑臺商跟國內臺商不一樣的地方是說，國內的臺商是以國內的資金在本地製造或者在第三國製造，然後輸出到市場端；而我們的這些海外僑臺商，基本上是早年就移居他國，他們都是以在第三國的資金來進行投資，但是由於近年來全球供應鏈的變化，事實上也有很多人除了在僑居國的事業以外，在第三國也都有新的投資或者貿易採購等等這樣的變化，所以受到美國對等關稅的影響跟衝擊確實是相當的大，這部分我們也會進一步來分門別類，分別就製造業或服務業或相關不同的產業，來了解他們受到關稅衝擊的影響。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。各國對於關稅的危機也陸續推出因應的措施及紓困的政策，包括我們國家也提出特別條例要來強化我們產業的韌性，僑臺商耕耘各地的市場，都能適用當地政府的紓困政策，但可能礙於語言方面的隔閡或是資訊的不流通，無法即時取得正確的資訊，我想就教委員長，是否能夠和經濟部來協助彙整即時更新各國的紓困相關措施，並統一官方的資訊給僑界，以減少我們資訊的落差情形？"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝陳委員的提醒，我們確實目前在25個國家有51個合作的金融機構，他們也可以運用國內31個OBU的國際貸款業務部門來進行貸款，所以語言的障礙應當不會有問題。重點是我們因應這一次的對等關稅，如果是比較中小型的海外僑臺商因為這樣的變化而需要資金的融資，我們也會規劃特殊的專案，讓這些僑臺商可以在短期內獲得立即性的協助；如果需要比較長期性的投資，要擴大投資金額的話，因為我們海外信保基金的額度上限在東南亞的南向國家是250萬美金，其餘的地方是200萬美金，我們也會跟國內的金融機構來討論，如果他們過去信用貸款的績效良好，事實上他們都可以貸更多，並沒有這方面的問題，所以國內31個OBU的金融機構是可以提供他們更多的資金貸款的。"],["陳委員俊宇：就信保基金的部分，我們是不是可以比照COVID-19時期，啟動對於舊有貸款能夠展延的措施，來紓緩企業在資金周轉上的壓力？"],["徐委員長佳青：確實，我們現在有在因應，不過因為現在是90天的寬限期，我們也在等待相關對美談判的進一步結果出來，才比較好針對那個具體的結論來制定因應的貸款措施，不過初步的方案我們有在規劃中，只是還沒有定案。目前對於僑臺商如果要移轉投資基地，或者是採購對象要有所轉變，確實他的資金調度需求會變得比較高，所以這一部分我們會儘可能來提供相關的方便或展延的部分，避免在雨天收傘，這個我們會立即的來協助。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，是否也可以啟動小額貸款的申請？"],["徐委員長佳青：小額貸款一直都有，這個沒有問題，我們沒有金額上限。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，這部分再請我們僑委會持續關心。"],["徐委員長佳青：好的，謝謝陳委員。"],["陳委員俊宇：接下來我要請國發會高副主委及經濟部賴次長。次長、副主委早。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：我先就教國發會的還是關稅的問題，因為目前還在談判當中，因應這次關稅政策所帶來的供應鏈重組的趨勢，國發會劉主委之前曾經表示過，有部分的臺商有可能會在這個時間點回到臺灣來生產，我想請教副主委，預期有哪些產業有可能會回流到臺灣？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想臺灣的半導體供應鏈其實是非常的完整，所以我們會預期ICT半導體的相關產業，還有現在因為我們在推動五大信賴產業，政府也有相關的一些支持措施，所以我們認為五大信賴產業相關的軍工或者是無人機等等產業有可能也會回到臺灣來。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。再請教經濟部，如果要讓關鍵產業回流到臺灣，相信我們政府有責任將國內的投資環境做好，之前我們有提出投資臺灣的三大方案，現在是不是已經確定可以延續到2027年？"],["賴次長建信：謝謝委員，這個部分我們確定是要延長，但是相關的具體措施，我們會在聆聽業者更多的意見之後去做詳細的規劃，然後再做一個宣布。除此之外，為了改善投資環境，我們對接的國發會六大區域發展計畫，不管是從水、電，包括廠商投資環境的優化工作，我們是持續的在進行。以上。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。我們目前對關稅的相關政策是不是有規劃進一步能夠擴大辦理協助產業回流？有沒有可能？"],["賴次長建信：擴大協助產業回流的部分，我們對於剛剛所講的三大投資方案這個部分會予以延長。除此之外，延長的類別剛剛副主委也有講，包括五大信賴產業、包括大健康產業、包括服務業，這些都是我們所關注的部分。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝次長跟副主委。對於剛剛的這個部分，在政策上如果有更新，我在此也請僑委會一定要即時的向我們海外的僑臺商去進行宣傳，讓他們也知道我們國內的相關政策已經在做調整了，讓他們可以因應相關政策變化之後要如何去推動他們的商業行為。以上，謝謝。"],["主席（徐委員巧芯代）：現在先作一個宣告：待會在沈伯洋委員質詢完畢之後，我們先休息10分鐘。","接下來我們就請黃仁委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":234,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-11","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王定宇","徐巧芯","葉元之","陳永康","林憶君","馬文君"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長、經濟部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委員報告「美國對等關稅政策對僑\n台商全球布局之挑戰，及我政府協助僑台商之具體策略與措施」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00004"}}},{"id":"160983","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160983","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e061d5a6b843f24c2f2115e7528c8151ef5c49de4876f6fadf40b1eef77ac16b5045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:42:21 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在場委員先進 列席政府金管署長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體 記者女士先生有請打造中心指揮官 馬事員 馬指揮官請馬指揮官那麼另外警政署 速發部 通傳會和金管會都有一位來協助我們指揮官來答覆金管會可能是跟銀行局比較有關"},{"start":41.352,"end":59.636,"text":"我們要完善農會帳戶系統關懷機制還有我們實名制下架的廣告其實防詐是名存實亡對不起是名是實名制的名來我們看一下其實跟馬哲端說一下我在院會的時候有問過我們院長跟我們今晚會的主委"},{"start":60.436,"end":88.403,"text":"我問說 是不是全部的金融機構都有加入一個金融資料暨聯防通報電子平台這個平台 指揮官熟悉吧指揮官我們知道 指揮官知道喔 好 那麼其實我直觸的是說 是不是所有的金融機構有沒有金融機構未加入的那麼 左院長是說 欸 應該要求全部加入主委回去答覆說 我會回去再確認那請問金管會"},{"start":89.673,"end":113.021,"text":"你們主委交辦下來是不是全部都加入了 有沒有辦法確認銀行局報告委員 這個部分我是不是可以再確認一下所以你們還沒確認嘛是我是在4月29號就親自在院會問卓院長也要求你們主委你們主委的承諾會再跟我確認你們到現在還沒有確認"},{"start":120.436,"end":145.623,"text":"還沒有確認 好 那我會再跟你們主委提醒你們答應我要確認的來 那個馬祖陽我跟你說明一下為什麼這個事情重要 來我們看一下這個你就很熟悉了現在所有的銀行帳戶或零貴轉帳會在銀行之間做匯款那麼只要進入過這個系統因為我們有這個平台所以這個平台會去偵測疑似交易它會經過系統通報通報給誰 通報給警方警方接到通報之後就會透過這個系統"},{"start":146.863,"end":171.094,"text":"去通知銀行那總行就會查出是哪個分行然後告知分行去做臨櫃關懷如果他是臨櫃的話指揮官是不是這樣子報告委員正確那但是如果有銀行或金融機構沒有加入這個平台系統我們警方就沒有辦法即時的偵測也沒有辦法經過通報後提醒他是不是這樣所以很重要嘛好 那我再告訴你另外一個"},{"start":171.934,"end":177.317,"text":"有加入但是出現問題的就是農漁會的帳戶農會的帳戶不管是在帳戶臨櫃轉帳還是非臨櫃的ATM轉帳舉例來講我舉三個農會內埔農會它的編號是74901高雄地區農會是60501台南新化是51901他們各自有各自的編號但是他們會透過誰"},{"start":195.046,"end":221.54,"text":"透過一個叫做我們的農經公司農經資訊公司他是由農業金庫在108年的時候成立的他會把他們的資訊呢整合起來用一個600的代號去進行匯款進入我們的平台我們如果偵測到疑似的可疑交易系統會通報警方警方後呢就要透過系統回去通知糟糕了通知誰只能通知到農經資訊公司因為"},{"start":224.021,"end":232.767,"text":"600嘛那是哪一家的匯款不知道指揮官有沒有發現問題在哪裡了老爸我們看到問題了好那怎麼解決"},{"start":233.962,"end":257.547,"text":"是不是 我們跟金管會這邊來討論這個部分的諮詢要能夠暢通這個呢 因為今天主席只有邀請沒有邀請農業部的農經署農業金庫跟財經公司 農經公司不知道所以這個東西要在行政院透過指揮官你們的系統去要求農業部農經署趕快要求農經諮詢公司怎麼去解決這個問題 可以嗎"},{"start":258.587,"end":285.236,"text":"好的沒問題多久可以給我一個明確的結果跟委員報告我們一個禮拜之內我們會把它列管到行政院裡面好所以呢這個要有一個精進的作為謝謝往下看接下來我們網路平台廣告實名證的成效我們看到一個新聞就在上一星期速發部主要納管了四大網路的廣告平台結果有人說臉書5月被質疑速發部說我們5月的時候會提計畫檢討"},{"start":286.596,"end":311.808,"text":"我也問過書發佈 他說Google臉書LINE跟TikTok配合度都很高 結果觀察詐騙廣告有下降 財損金額也有下滑是這樣嗎 指揮官小紅書有配合嗎報告委員 小紅書目前沒有落地小紅書沒有落地 所以沒有辦法要求他配合沒有配合好 那沒有落地的怎麼辦報告委員 目前我們只能做網路上的監控網路上的監控 好 那小紅書這個我沒有想辦法 來往下看"},{"start":312.951,"end":339.84,"text":"結果我們看一下我們從一月底開始實施實名之後的確通報平台下降的數量馬上從一萬三掉到了八千九下降了可是到了四月底的統計回升了還更高到一萬八回復到之前的水準我們看到Meta臉書在一月的時候有一萬三實名之後馬上掉下來升一萬出頭結果到了三月四月又漲回去了"},{"start":340.808,"end":342.774,"text":"受詐金額從95億掉到60億結果又回升到70億 76億請問是不是詐團找到了對付實名制的對策"},{"start":350.277,"end":372.177,"text":"這裡面有兩個因素 一個就是說二月份剛好是農曆春節二月份不是我們實名制的效果 是農曆春節的效果對 但是如果說長期來看的話 我們實名制是有效的有效嗎 因為跟委員報告 他的這個通報平台下架就表示這一些廣告已經被我們偵測到 而且下架了好 那我告訴你炸團怎麼做 往下看"},{"start":373.298,"end":392.45,"text":"現在呢 我們警方跟Meta 跟我們那個速發部啊發現疑似詐騙廣告就通到平台嘛 因為有實名制嘛 對不對所以我們網路平台就把它下架了嘛下架之後 詐團怎麼處理同一個實身份證的身份 ID 同一個人頭 同一個戶口的方式再來一次 無限循環啊你們知道嗎 速發部知道嗎速發部知不知道這個情況"},{"start":399.394,"end":400.655,"text":"怎麼做怎麼做就這樣評估然後呢我告訴你幾個問題"},{"start":419.517,"end":432.572,"text":"同樣的人頭同樣的付款方式他沒有成本嘛你幫我下架我再報名一次嘛下架再報名一次嘛然後呢而且我下架之後呢因為廣告投放啊你下架之後你就不會跟我收錢啊他不只沒有時間人頭的成本他連財務的成本都沒有那這樣子嚇阻什麼用"},{"start":438.075,"end":465.283,"text":"是 報告委員 事實上以這個Meta跟Line他們都已經有在開始做自己內部因為主動防範的這個部分喔雖然那個防炸計畫書目前還在送我們省當中但是據我們了解這個Line的部分呢他們也有用機器人工的方式只要我們通報過的然後他就會自動的去掃描然後呢 他再來一次不是 然後掃描以後他就會他再來一次啊他就會把它下架下架後再來一次啊"},{"start":467.845,"end":478.81,"text":"無限循環嘛來 馬子維哥你們討論的結果 對不起齁發生問題沒有人家說到高一尺磨高一丈啊怎麼辦你們什麼時候可以分一丈變兩丈"},{"start":480.526,"end":504.477,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在的重點在於裁罰也就是說未來我們跟速發部合作那包括速發部跟內政部我們一旦發現這個在實名制投放廣告有違規的部分還有剛剛委員所講到的情況裁罰誰裁罰平台嗎裁罰業者裁罰平台嗎對有能力裁罰嗎有沒有能力裁罰他如果這個循環循環你能裁罰他他嗎"},{"start":505.461,"end":525.436,"text":"有的有有辦法我們只要就是說他的那個證據如果是確實的話我們就會可以去做好我等著看成效指揮官這個部分的就兩個要求了第一個馬上將農會賬戶非零貴匯款發生可疑的交易的時候呢對賬戶持有人的關懷及聯邦性能精進您說下週就會提報嗎我們下週會提報我們的內部事務會議請農業部來列席然後我們請一個月內改善好不好對可以好"},{"start":531.721,"end":543.112,"text":"那第二個針對實名制已經疑似詐騙的廣告他們的購買者你們說要處罰平台嘛那也是一樣一個月內對於平台的因應方式提出來可以嗎好沒問題好謝謝好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":671,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時42分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請打詐中心馬士元指揮官。"],["主席：好，請馬指揮官。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外，警政署、數發部、通傳會和金管會，都請一位來協助指揮官答復。金管會可能跟銀行局比較有關。"],["主席：麻煩請上台。"],["馬指揮官士元：委員早安。"],["鍾委員佳濱：馬指揮官早。今日我要質詢的議題是：完善農會帳戶系統及關懷機制，實名制下架廣告防詐名存實亡。首先要跟馬指揮官說明，我在院會的時候有問過院長和金管會主委，全部金融機構是不是都有加入「金融資料暨聯防通報電子化平臺」，這個平臺指揮官熟悉吧？"],["馬指揮官士元：報告委員，我們知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：知道？好，我詢問兩位有沒有金融機構未加入這個平臺的？卓院長說應該要求全部加入；主委的答復是回去會再確認。請問金管會，你們主委交辦下來的，是不是全部都加入了？有沒有辦法確認？銀行局？"],["王副局長允中：報告委員，這個部分我是不是可以再確認一下？"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們還沒有確認？"],["王副局長允中：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是在4月29號親自在院會詢問卓院長，也要求你們主委，你們主委承諾會再跟我確認，你們到現在還沒有確認？"],["王副局長允中：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還沒有確認？好，那我會再提醒主委，這是你們答應我要確認的。","馬指揮官，我跟你說明為什麼這個事情重要？這個你應該很熟悉，現在所有銀行帳戶的非臨櫃轉帳，在銀行間匯款，只要進入過這個系統，因為我們有這個平臺，這個平臺就會去偵測疑似可疑交易，經過系統通報，會通報給誰？通報給警方，警方接到通報之後，就會透過這個系統通知銀行，而總行查出是哪個分行後，會告知分行進行臨櫃關懷，如果他是臨櫃的話。指揮官是不是這樣子？"],["馬指揮官士元：報告委員，正確。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是如果有銀行或金融機構沒有加入這個平臺系統，警方就沒有辦法即時偵測，也沒有辦法經過通報後提醒他，是不是這樣？"],["馬指揮官士元：沒有錯，這個我們會偵測。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以很重要嘛！"],["馬指揮官士元：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我來告訴你另外一個有加入但是出現問題的，那就是農漁會的帳戶，農會帳戶不管是在帳戶臨櫃轉帳還是非臨櫃的ATM轉帳，我舉三個農會來講，內湖農會的編號是74901，高雄地區農會是60501，臺南新化是51901，他們各自有各自的編號，但是他們會透過農金資訊公司，這是由農業金庫在108年成立的，它會把他們的資訊整合起來，用600的代號去進行匯款。當進入這個平臺，如果我們偵測到疑似可疑交易，系統會通報警方，警方就要透過系統回去通知，糟糕了！通知誰？只能通知到農金資訊公司，因為代號是600，但是哪一家的匯款不知道，指揮官有沒有發現問題在哪裡了？"],["馬指揮官士元：報告委員，我們看到問題了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那怎麼解決？"],["馬指揮官士元：我們跟金管會來討論這個部分的資訊要能夠暢通。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為今天主席沒有邀請農業部農金署，農業金庫跟農金公司都不知道，所以這個東西要在行政院透過指揮官你們的系統去要求農業部農金署，趕快要求農金資訊公司怎麼去解決這個問題，可以嗎？"],["馬指揮官士元：好的，沒問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：多久可以給我一個明確的結果？"],["馬指揮官士元：跟委員報告，我們一個禮拜之內會把它列管到行政院裡面。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這方面要有精進的作為，謝謝。","接下來是網路平臺廣告實名制的成效，我們看到上星期的一個新聞，數發部納管四大網路廣告平臺的成效被質疑，數發部說他們5月的時候會提計畫檢討，我也問過數發部，他們說包括Google、臉書、LINE跟TikTok配合度都很高，結果觀察詐騙廣告有下降，財損金額也有下滑，是這樣嗎？小紅書有配合嗎？"],["馬指揮官士元：報告委員，小紅書目前沒有落地。"],["鍾委員佳濱：小紅書沒有落地，所以沒有辦法要求它配合？"],["馬指揮官士元：沒有配合。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那沒有落地的怎麼辦？"],["馬指揮官士元：報告委員，目前我們只能做網路上的監控。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那小紅書的部分我們要想辦法。","我們來看一下結果，從1月底開始實施實名制之後，的確通報平臺下架的數量馬上從一萬三掉到八千九，可是到4月底的統計卻回升了，而且還高到一萬八，回復到之前的水準。我們看到Meta臉書在1月的時候有一萬三，實名制之後馬上掉下來，剩一萬出頭，結果到了3月、4月又漲回去了，原本受詐金額從95億掉到60億，結果又回升到70億、76億，請問是不是詐團找到了對付實名制的對策？"],["馬指揮官士元：跟委員報告，這裡面有兩個因素，一個是因為2月份剛好是農曆春節……"],["鍾委員佳濱：2月份是嗎？2月份不是實名制的效果，而是農曆春節的效果？"],["馬指揮官士元：對，但如果長期來看的話，實名制是有效的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有效嗎？我們來看一下……"],["馬指揮官士元：我跟委員報告，通報平臺下架就表示這一些廣告已經被我們偵測到而且下架了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我告訴你詐團怎麼做？現在警方跟數發部發現疑似詐騙廣告就通報平臺，因為有實名制，所以網路平臺就給它下架了，下架之後詐團怎麼處理？同一個身分證ID、同一個人頭、同樣的付款方式再來一次，無限循環啊！你們知道嗎？數發部知道嗎？數發部知不知道這個情況？"],["黃副署長雅萍：是，我們知道這個部分，所以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：怎麼做？"],["黃副署長雅萍：針對這個部分，我們有跟幾個網路廣告平臺業者一起討論，就是類似這樣的狀況應該要把它列到防詐計畫書裡面去做風險評估，所以以目前……"],["鍾委員佳濱：怎麼做？就這樣子？評估之後呢？"],["黃副署長雅萍：是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我告訴你幾個問題，同樣的人頭、同樣的付款方式，他沒有成本嘛！你把我下架，我下架之後再報名一次嘛！而且因為廣告投放，下架之後你又不會跟我收錢。他不只沒有時間、人頭的成本，他連財務的成本都沒有，這樣子嚇阻有什麼用？"],["黃副署長雅萍：報告委員，事實上Meta跟LINE都已經開始在做自己內部主動防範的部分，雖然防詐計畫書目前還在送審當中，但是據我們了解，LINE也有用機器、人工的方式，只要我們通報過的，它就會自動去掃描……"],["鍾委員佳濱：然後呢？他再來一次？"],["黃副署長雅萍：掃描以後它就會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他再來一次啊！"],["黃副署長雅萍：它就會把他下架。"],["鍾委員佳濱：下架後再來一次啊！"],["黃副署長雅萍：是，這個部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：無限循環嘛！","對不起，馬指揮官，你們討論的結果發現問題沒有？人家說道高一尺魔高一丈，怎麼辦？你們什麼時候可以從一丈變兩丈？"],["馬指揮官士元：跟委員報告，我們現在的重點在於裁罰，也就是說，未來我們會跟數發部及內政部合作，一旦發現在實名制投放廣告有違規的部分，還有剛剛委員所講到的情況……"],["鍾委員佳濱：裁罰誰？裁罰平臺嗎？"],["馬指揮官士元：裁罰業者。"],["鍾委員佳濱：裁罰平臺嘛！"],["馬指揮官士元：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有能力裁罰嗎？有沒有能力裁罰？他如果一直循環，你能裁罰他嗎？"],["黃副署長雅萍：有的，有辦法，如果證據確實的話，我們就可以去做裁罰……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我等著看成效。"],["黃副署長雅萍：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：指揮官，這個部分只有兩個要求，第一個是當農會帳戶非臨櫃匯款發生可疑交易的時候，對於帳戶持有人的關懷及聯防系統必須馬上精進，您說下週就會提報嘛！"],["馬指揮官士元：我們下週會提報我們的內部事務會議，請農業部來列席，然後我們請……"],["鍾委員佳濱：一個月內改善好不好？"],["馬指揮官士元：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第二個，針對實名制疑似詐騙廣告的購買者，你們說要處罰平臺，也是一樣在一個月內對於平臺的因應方式提出來可以嗎？"],["馬指揮官士元：好，沒問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["馬指揮官士元：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請王鴻薇委員代理主席。"],["主席（王委員鴻薇代）：接下來請吳宗憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra 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有請林部長劉園你好你好"},{"start":25.474,"end":47.308,"text":"想要跟部長就是溝通一個很重要的問題我們現在立法院立法委員來這邊針對凍結預算的部分要做質詢等等的是我們的法定職權因為在立法院的在預算法當中說了立法院如果在針對省區預算當中有一些疑義的時候是要請"},{"start":48.789,"end":74.449,"text":"透過凍結預算的方式請行政部門或是來做專案報告這部分是我們的法定職權是吧是當然是對所以這邊有一的部分我覺得這非常好所以有一的部分我們現在看到的是剛才我有聽到部長您提到說文化部隊公管集團都沒有加一些政治上面的指令我覺得這是非常重要的事情對吧"},{"start":75.677,"end":104.856,"text":"你們沒有下政治的指令就是要怎麼樣對 我們文化部針對包括中央社也好或者是剛才講的公廣集團也好我們絕對沒辦法下指令好 這樣非常好但是下面的公廣集團或是中央社有遇到有問題的情況例如說在川普這邊在美選的一個議題上面我知道你們有處理這就是說你們如果沒辦法透過新聞自律的問題呈現新聞自律來去達到效果的時候媒體或是立法院的監督事實上是有必要的不是嗎"},{"start":106.117,"end":134.406,"text":"是吧 是 沒問題那另外的 包括在戲劇節目在那邊 聽海詠 公廣集團這部分 聽海詠這邊也有針對這個 佛州的這個領事 羅領事他的夫人的事情這個史實也不同 所以在徵選的部分廠商如果是 他沒有在徵選的過程當中對內容史實的部分涉及 應該做更多的偵查的時候立法委員 或者是媒體 這些報導事實上是很必要的 對吧"},{"start":135.883,"end":158.753,"text":"講到這裡我要想跟委員報告一下最近聽到的從斯卡羅到聽海湧到幾個歷史劇都是我心目中最棒的拍得非常好的而且包括他已經拍到台灣所有戲劇裡面最高的那個境界我不太知道為什麼民間會有一些人從歷史的角度去挑剔他"},{"start":159.753,"end":174.459,"text":"所以這個 不是不是因為這是有涉及到史實因為那個佛羅州領事這部分但是因為我自己是做電影出身的台灣的劇集跟電影能夠拍到這樣子我們要給他拍拍手我覺得這部分我可以跟郭董講我們是讓他好上加好"},{"start":175.779,"end":197.451,"text":"部長你承認吧 好上加好好上加好就是包括品質嘛對 品質我是覺得不錯但是我覺得好上加好如果有史實不符的部分真的要做一個更正因為他對後面的他的後代或是在對外交官的影響是非常大的他基本上我們只要透過小說也好 電影也好創作不能夠違背史實這是很重要的原則"},{"start":199.591,"end":215.278,"text":"它是歷史劇不是紀錄片基本上我們講那個小說也好我們講fiction就是虛構我們一定要接受那個虛構的部分但是如果你們特別要想到說可能要必須要做一些更正這邊部分它有涉及到史實的部分那這一部分我再繼續往下去看到"},{"start":215.578,"end":222.643,"text":"因為這是今天是解凍報告齁在台灣plus的這部分呢我們看下去他有一個擴散國際鏈的這個規劃當中呢可以看到齁他有提到的是這個如何加強台灣plus的影響力那我們再看下一頁可是在這裡面當中呢並沒有針對他怎麼樣去擴展國際鏈結的這樣的內容的規劃包括在地區啊騎乘人力跟法規地方因為他也涉及到說像有些國家在馬來西亞印度等等"},{"start":246.259,"end":255.147,"text":"那這些還包括喬加拿大跟英法等國那請問這個台灣PLUS這邊有針對這些的國際鏈結未來規劃地區期程這邊有做一下事實上的內容的一個了解嗎"},{"start":262.014,"end":281.596,"text":"有我是不是請直接請執行長講更仔細謝謝委員報告就是主要鏈接的部分有兩種管道主要的是在傳播的方式比方說傳播我們如何讓節目新聞內容能夠到當地去落地這是一種第二種是合作製作節目比方說我們的戲劇或"},{"start":282.857,"end":306.218,"text":"節目或者新聞合制像現在我們一直在跟日本韓國還有馬來西亞還有這個新加坡還有在英國方面我們都開始在做接觸那因為這些都需要預算的這個進度跟對但是你沒有提出來您的這個詳細的規模在你的報告書當中因為目前沒有辦法知道預算規模所以我那個具體還沒有辦法跟人家談判如果說能夠有具體的規模的話我們這期程是抓得出來沒有問題可以報告給委員的"},{"start":306.598,"end":311.161,"text":"那好 你就是報告委託的論席那我們繼續再看這樣同樣是台灣Plus的部分在根據立法院跟審計部的審核的報告當中有這個通知說應該要將KPI調整為觀看次數影音觀看時數還滿意度還有就是說APP的下載的次數那你們這部分呢卻是把剛才四項當中第四項的APP的這個次數這邊把它刪除掉而且你們存現三項的那個這些次數滿意度等等"},{"start":335.717,"end":347.646,"text":"都是累計啊可是這個產生的效果是你們從大概110年就把這些這些樹木的這個累計出來順出來可是如果你沒有算到每年度的這部分的話它的效果是不彰的啊"},{"start":348.666,"end":374.727,"text":"包委員每年度都有算可是你們在上面並沒有呈現出來我可以把資料再補給委員沒有問題因為每年度都在成長至於那個APP它本身是因為在疫情過後全世界國際媒體的趨勢不太要用APP作為收視管道因此我們改記國際常用的觀看次數觀看時數來作為統計那觀眾滿意就是公廣集團本身在自律還有在評量本身的這個公共性來講很重要的指標所以我們就符合國際趨勢因應來做調整來報請文化部核准"},{"start":378.372,"end":392.323,"text":"那如果你這邊應該要說明一下跟審計部跟立法院做一個說明但我們現在知道審計部可能要再做說明那另外一部分就在黃流票的這個地方黃流票的情況我們看到的是說在"},{"start":394.265,"end":411.786,"text":"因為特別是這個文創法嘛這邊的所有的藝文票卷可是有一些比較大型的活動等等藝文活動當中你們甚至涉及到流行音樂的部分對不對那流行的節目可是其他的內容為什麼沒有想要幫助沒有把它納入到所謂在實名制的這個部分呢"},{"start":413.018,"end":428.986,"text":"一些所有表演藝術都算吧 包括那個舞蹈只要這次的演出 音樂各方面都算啊沒有沒有沒有 你們現在在因為根據這個文化創意產業這個法 還有關你們的各個辦法當中不是喔 並沒有是 只是在針對"},{"start":431.468,"end":457.364,"text":"只針對流行音樂我希望能夠擴展到其他的領域上面尤其是有些熱門的國際性的像有些像大型的國際的舞台劇或者是知名的部分都希望有的但他們應該也是有問題我希望能夠您承諾是不是可以再擴展到其他大型的這種的國際性的節目的需求原來我們的文創法裡面音樂 戲劇 舞蹈都算"},{"start":458.344,"end":485.894,"text":"對但是你們的辦法目前我希望他能夠擴展可以承諾可以擴展到其他的也是屬於大型的嗎所以我們再來考慮在法律裡面另外我看到你們透過的這個實名制的掌握部分有補助那補助發現到有34場的情況然後包括甚至有實名制不只是有人沒有透過你的補助但是在其他的自己用實名制的這個效果倒是不錯那你們在做要杜絕黃牛票的"},{"start":487.455,"end":502.744,"text":"這有兩種方式有的是蘿蔔就是用的補助讓他在有一些讓他可以採取實名制但有些部分是在用棍棒就是要檢取的那我們現在看到的是說有掌握到想請問一下去年的這樣子的關於"},{"start":503.624,"end":518.009,"text":"沒有申請到演唱會有申請就是演唱會但是他沒有採取實名制的這一部分包括在大巨蛋還有包括小台北小巨蛋或是高雄的小巨蛋這邊部分的情況他們有些沒有採取實名制你們知道理由是什麼嗎"},{"start":519.076,"end":540.766,"text":"因為實名制本身它的進場手續非常麻煩我們沒有辦法強迫它用實名制所以我們除了鼓勵之外其實文化部最近做的最具體就是跟各大場館比如大巨蛋、小巨蛋、南港表演場等等希望他們用租給對方的時候就用一些折扣"},{"start":541.566,"end":565.051,"text":"換句話說這個部分我們做的已經比過去有進步所以願意用實名制的表演越來越多然後也越來越多的場館願意用譬如小巨蛋用八五折來鼓勵他用實名制等等那剩下的部分如果他不用實名制我們就回到用黃牛去檢舉可是那個過程說句實話是用了很多人用非常麻煩的"},{"start":566.171,"end":574.535,"text":"這就是我想要問的部分啦因為呢在沒有做實名制的活動當中就有八千件的檢舉就想問你剛才說人力不夠那怎麼辦呢其實八千件檢舉裡面我可以跟委員報告我們必須從裡面去找他的資料看是不是真的有這個人從開始找資料到補件"},{"start":587.202,"end":615.147,"text":"到去平台確定他是誰再到地方上有警察來抓抓到之後罰他多少錢之後如果他不服的話他還可以行使訴願文化部就說這個方法其實已經把文化部搞到非常吃力最後我們在訴願開訴願委員會我有時候覺得黃牛我們如果不從原始來杜絕的話我們快是用抓他包括地方政府也一直哀哀叫人力不夠"},{"start":617.067,"end":642.132,"text":"所以我想部長你也已經發現問題了應該就是朝向鼓勵的或是說像你剛才說的那個場館的這個節目活動場地上面就是合作部分對就是這樣子的部分那希望說您繼續往這部分那如果是預算在明年度的預算當中去編往這邊我想我們的我們立法委員會做支持的因為這個地方才覺得公平性這邊的一個效果存在著好那就這樣謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":647.056,"end":647.279,"text":"好 谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":171,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（9時39分）請李部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：劉委員，你好。"],["劉委員書彬：你好。想要跟部長溝通一個很重要的問題，立法委員針對凍結預算要質詢等等是我們的法定職權，因為在預算法當中說了，立法院如果針對預算有一些疑義的時候，要透過凍結預算的方式，請行政部門來專案報告。這部分是我們的法定職權，是吧？"],["李部長遠：是，當然是。"],["劉委員書彬：對，所以針對有疑義的部分，我覺得這樣非常好。剛才我聽到部長提到，文化部對公廣集團都沒有下一些政治上面的指令，這是非常重要的事情，對吧？你們沒有下政治指令，就是說要怎麼樣，對不對？"],["李部長遠：對。文化部針對包括中央社也好或者是剛才講的公廣集團也好，絕對沒辦法下指令。"],["劉委員書彬：這樣非常好，但是下面的公廣集團或是中央社遇到有問題的情況，例如TaiwanPlus在美選的議題上面有爭議，我知道你們有處理，如果你們沒辦法透過新聞自律達到效果的時候，媒體或立法院的監督事實上是有必要的，不是嗎？是吧？"],["李部長遠：是，沒問題。"],["劉委員書彬：非常好。另外，公廣集團的戲劇節目聽海湧有提到婆羅洲羅領事夫人的事情，雖然還原史實不容易，但廠商在徵詢的過程當中，對內容涉及史實的部分應該做更多的偵查，而媒體的這些報導事實上是很必要的，對吧？"],["李部長遠：講到這裡，我想跟委員報告一下，最近從斯卡羅到聽海湧等幾個歷史劇，都是我心目中最棒的，拍得非常好。"],["劉委員書彬：我也覺得蠻棒的。"],["李部長遠：而且已經拍到臺灣所有戲劇裡面最高的境界，我不太知道為什麼民間會有一些人從歷史的角度去挑剔，所以這個……"],["劉委員書彬：不是！因為婆羅州領事這部分有涉及到史實。"],["李部長遠：對，因為我自己是做電影出身的，臺灣的劇集跟電影能夠拍到這樣，我們要給它拍拍手。"],["劉委員書彬：這部分我可以跟你溝通一下，我們是要讓它好上加好。部長，你承認吧？好上加好這部分需要……"],["李部長遠：好上加好就是包括品質，譬如……"],["劉委員書彬：對，我覺得品質不錯，但是要好上加好，如果有不符史實的部分真的要更正，因為對外交官的後代影響是非常大的。"],["李部長遠：基本上，我們只要透過小說也好、電影也好，它就是有……"],["劉委員書彬：創作不能夠違背史實，這是很重要的原則。"],["李部長遠：它是歷史劇，不是紀錄片，基本上我們講小說、fiction就是虛構，我們一定要接受虛構的部分。"],["劉委員書彬：沒有！你們可能必須要做一些更正，因為這部分有涉及到史實。我就繼續往下看，因為今天是解凍報告，在TaiwanPlus的部分，我們看到有一個擴散國際鏈的規劃，當中有提到如何加強TaiwanPlus的影響力，可是裡面並沒有針對怎麼樣擴展國際鏈結有內容規劃，包括地區、期程、人力跟法規，因為它也涉及到有些國家，像馬來西亞、印度，還包括加拿大跟英、法等國。請問TaiwanPlus有針對國際鏈結未來規劃的地區、期程，做一下事實內容的了解嗎？"],["李部長遠：有，我是不是請執行長直接講更仔細？"],["劉委員書彬：好。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["余執行長佳璋：主要鏈結的部分有兩種管道，主要的是在傳播的方式，比方我們如何讓節目新聞內容能夠到當地落地，這是一種。第二種是合作製作節目，比方戲劇、節目或者新聞合製，像現在我們一直在跟日本、韓國、馬來西亞、新加坡，還有英國方面都開始接觸。因為這些都需要預算的進度跟有把握……"],["劉委員書彬：對，但是你沒有提出詳細的規劃，在你的報告書當中沒有看到。"],["余執行長佳璋：因為目前沒有辦法知道預算規模，所以我還沒有辦法跟人家談判，如果能夠有具體的規模，這個期程是抓得出來的，沒有問題，可以報告給委員。"],["劉委員書彬：好，你就報告給本席。我們繼續再看一下，同樣是TaiwanPlus的部分。根據立法院的提案與審計部的審核通知有說，應該要將KPI調整為觀看次數、影音觀看時數、滿意度，還有app下載的次數。你們卻把剛才四項當中第四項的app次數刪除，而且呈現其他三項的次數、滿意度等等都是累計。可是這樣產生的效果是，你們大概從110年就把這些數目累計，如果沒有算每年度的，它的效果是不彰的！"],["余執行長佳璋：每年度都有算，每年度都在成長……"],["劉委員書彬：可是你們在上面並沒有呈現出來，給我們的是累計數。"],["余執行長佳璋：有，我可以把資料再補給委員，沒有問題，因為每年度都在成長。至於app本身，因為在疫情過後，全世界國際媒體的趨勢都不太用app作為收視管道，因此，我們改計國際常用的觀看次數、觀看時數作為統計。觀眾滿意度是公廣集團本身在自律還有評量公共性來講很重要的指標，所以我們就符合國際趨勢因應來調整，報請文化部核准。"],["劉委員書彬：你應該要說明一下，跟審計部、立法院做個說明，但我們現在知道了，所以對審計部可能要再說明。","另外一部分就是黃牛票，我們看到的黃牛票情況，特別是文創法規範的應該是所有藝文票券，包括一些比較大型的藝文活動，可是現在只涉及到所謂流行音樂的部分，對不對？為什麼其他內容沒有納入所謂的實名制呢？"],["余執行長佳璋：所有表演藝術都算吧？包括舞蹈，只要是正式演出，音樂各方面都算。"],["劉委員書彬：沒有！根據文化創意產業發展法，還有你們的各個辦法當中並沒有，而是只針對流行音樂，我希望能夠擴展到其他領域，尤其是有些國際性的熱門表演、大型的或者是知名的舞臺劇，都希望有。我希望您能夠承諾，是不是可以再擴及到其他大型的、國際性的節目？"],["李部長遠：原來文創法裡面，音樂、戲劇、舞蹈都算，有列入這個法裡面。"],["劉委員書彬：對，但是我希望能夠擴展，可以承諾擴展到其他也是屬於大型的嗎？"],["李部長遠：是，我們再來考慮，在法律裡面……"],["劉委員書彬：另外，我看到透過實名制的部分，你們有補助的方式，發現到補助有34場，但是有人沒有透過補助，自己用實名制的效果倒是不錯，你們要杜絕黃牛票只有兩種方式，一個是蘿蔔，就是用補助，讓有些可以採取實名制；有些則是用棍棒，就是要檢舉。想請問去年有演唱會沒有採取實名制，包括在大巨蛋，還有臺北小巨蛋、高雄小巨蛋，你們知道有些沒有採取實名制的理由是什麼嗎？"],["李部長遠：因為實名制本身的進場手續非常麻煩，我們沒有辦法強迫他們用實名制，所以除了鼓勵之外，其實文化部最近做得最具體的就是跟各大場館溝通，比如大巨蛋、小巨蛋、南港表演場等等，希望他們租給對方的時候就給一些折扣。換句話說，這個部分我們做的已經比過去有進步，所以願意用實名制的表演越來越多，也越來越多的場館願意用，譬如小巨蛋用85折來鼓勵用實名制等等，剩下的部分如果不用實名，就回到用黃牛去……"],["劉委員書彬：檢舉？"],["李部長遠：對，可是那個過程說句實話，是很多人用非常麻煩的，譬如……"],["劉委員書彬：這就是我想要問的部分，因為在沒有實名制的活動當中，就有8,000件的檢舉，部長剛才說人力不夠，怎麼辦呢？"],["李部長遠：其實8,000件檢舉裡面，我可以跟委員報告，我們必須從裡面去找資料看是不是真的有這個人，從開始找資料到補件、到去平臺確定是誰，再到地方由警察來抓，抓到之後罰多少錢，如果不服還可以行使訴願，文化部……"],["劉委員書彬：所以曠日費時嘛？"],["李部長遠：對，這個方法其實已經把文化部搞到非常吃力，最後我們在開訴願委員會，我有時候覺得黃牛如果不從原始來杜絕的話，光是用抓他，包括地方政府也一直哀哀叫人力不夠。事實上，文化……"],["劉委員書彬：部長也已經發現問題了，應該就是朝向鼓勵的，或是像你剛才說的，跟場館、節目活動場地合作……"],["李部長遠：從根本杜絕它。"],["劉委員書彬：對，就是這樣子，希望您繼續往這部分，如果是在明年度的預算當中編列，我想我們立法院會支持的，因為在這個地方才有一個公平性。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["劉委員書彬：也有一個效果存在，那就這樣，謝謝。"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝劉書彬委員，部長請回。","接下來請吳沛憶委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-10","speakers":["林宜瑾","郭昱晴","劉書彬","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","柯志恩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳秀寳","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","葉元之","范雲","蘇巧慧","黃捷","陳培瑜","邱志偉"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算解凍案49案","agenda_id":"1144601_00005"}}},{"id":"160981","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160981","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e06df7f10640704c9681c005f00a3db85f7c49de4876f6fadf48c2082ecc2dcd8fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:32:49 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有請經濟部賴次長委員好"},{"start":13.087,"end":23.999,"text":"次長好次長根據這個外媒的報導美國政府預計會在美東時間5月7號也就是今天要公布這個半導體關稅的這個細節那過去川普一直認為說台灣竊取了"},{"start":31.827,"end":60.766,"text":"这个美国的这个半导体所以他说对台湾征收百分之百半导体的这个关税呢是合理的那当然外媒也认为说如果确定实施的话呢对整体的这个科技产业的发展会带来毁灭性的这个后果那刚刚我也看到那个国防会有提到就是说美国商务部呢会依据这个贸易扩张法第232条呢分别针对一些产业的来做这个"},{"start":62.246,"end":85.297,"text":"那我昨天本席也看到卓主席卓院長他也有提出就是說這個半導體的談判也會依據貿易擴張法第232條來做談判所以這就是讓我們所擔心的就是美國像川普他一直認為就是說台灣竊取了這個美國的半導體所以變成就是說我們半導體的這個出口關稅這高額關稅是"},{"start":89.918,"end":115.609,"text":"難以避免對不對他已經提出要課百分之百如果說談判下來的話所以次長您認為呢我們是難以避免這個無法避免這個高關稅嗎半導體的部分首先跟委員報告我國半導體產業它不論是在產業競爭力或是在研發製造包括關鍵的製程的部分它立足於台灣當然未來我們也希望說"},{"start":116.943,"end":144.744,"text":"美國對等關稅的影響對於相關的這個業者除了半保體業者之外還有EMS的這個業者的影響衝擊影響降到最低所以剛剛在跟委員報告的我們採取了三項的措施不光是行政的支持金融的支持多元的拓銷那至於說你剛剛所詢問的這個部分我們這個美國政府部門他有接受公眾評論的意見那政府也把相關公眾的評論的意見"},{"start":146.465,"end":167.699,"text":"送交美國商務部那對於過去一段時間以來那我們經濟部跟廠商多次的這個座談的這個意見廠商 個別的廠商也發表了他的意見說他們也會透過他們的公司來提送相關的意見送交美國政府做參考"},{"start":169.091,"end":192.516,"text":"是 因為美國自己商務部其實它也有針對這個半導體的這個徵收這個高額度的這個關稅其實他們也有提出一些徵詢那現在就是說問題就是說他們只收到十份的這個意見書所以在美國商務部的解讀就是說其實沒有很多反對的意見基本上大家好像還蠻支持這個半導體要課這個高額的這個關稅所以這個部分的話"},{"start":198.877,"end":221.863,"text":"好像跟那國內當然有國內的意見可是美國本身商務部就收到只有十份跟過去像過去的話他們也會針對類似的這個高額關稅的這個提出這個爭取可是相對跟過去比較的話這一次只有十份意見書所以我們怎麼看這個部分呢"},{"start":222.908,"end":249.907,"text":"第一個這個委員現在所畫面中所提出來的這個資料是媒體的報導那事實上沒有確實嗎美國的政府確實在多方的收集的意見剛剛公委員說明了出了政府提出政府部門的這個意見提供美國商務部參考之外廠商也會提供他的意見那至於說對於未來的這個美國公布了之後的這個狀況"},{"start":252.09,"end":254.454,"text":"廠商他會去利用說"},{"start":256.267,"end":281.025,"text":"盡量減少他的成本的方式然後甚至接近客戶端的這個方式第一個盡量減少成本所以我們這一次再提出了這個特別條例行政院通過的草案裡面特別是對於穩定民生減少廠商的生產的成本的這個部分特別予以列入那除此之外的話對於他若是有受到一個衝擊"},{"start":283.487,"end":304.745,"text":"我們也針對於說大廠的部分坦白講大廠它的因應調適的能力是比較好的我們關切的是它所連動的下游的供應鏈所以對於中小企業還有包括供應鏈的轉型的部分這也是我們特別注意的所以這一次我們在研發的轉型的部分特別的加碼"},{"start":306.753,"end":334.523,"text":"因為時間的關係我們都知道半導體是我國的經濟命脈像美國的關稅政策或最近我們台幣升值超過10%這對我們的出口來講其實造成了很大的壓力所以我想政府應該需要戰戰兢兢針對這所有可能發生的狀況我們都要有一個推出一些比較可以應處的一些政策來降低整個系統性的風險"},{"start":335.723,"end":340.257,"text":"OK好 那次長請回喔那再來我要邀請的是我們僑委會區委員長"},{"start":352.497,"end":361.226,"text":"委員長早安,妳的手好了沒?謝謝關心真的非常的辛苦,因為我們的業務費被砍的關係所以我知道委員長現在出國跟喬介這邊聯繫其實都自己一個人,只剩一個人,出國沒有辦法帶這個隨行的"},{"start":373.538,"end":384.727,"text":"呃這個這個人員所以前兩天我有發現委員長的手呢腫起來了而且呢還弄了這個護腕所以非常的這個辛苦啊所以我希望說在野黨能夠理性來看待這部分呢因為這個呃跟橋界還有跟這個呃全世界僑胞的這個交流對台灣來講是非常重要的"},{"start":391.912,"end":393.253,"text":"那再來還有就是說前天很謝謝我們僑委會邀請我參加了2025年畢業僑生的委員長獎的頒獎典禮這對畢業僑生來講這是一個非常大的肯定"},{"start":410.664,"end":417.347,"text":"那再來我也發現當天呢有很多獲獎的這個學生呢僑生大部分都是馬來西亞的這個僑生讓我覺得非常的這個光榮那可是呢我們如果回去看這個數據的話馬來西亞的僑生過去一直以來都是台灣很重要的這個僑生的這個生源的來源可是我們可以發現說最近這幾年來馬來西亞的僑生的人數呢卻一直在下降"},{"start":440.137,"end":443.641,"text":"那當然我們面臨的是鄰國也許還有中國的這個搶僑生的這個原因那再來還有馬來西亞學制的這個改變比如說他們三年制的這個學制呢也讓很多這個僑生也許就留在馬來西亞就學了"},{"start":456.897,"end":479.944,"text":"那面臨這樣子我們馬來西亞的僑生一直在減少這部分的話我們到底有沒有什麼對策因為像過去馬來西亞的這個招生我們大部分都以這個六十級所的華文獨立中學的畢業生為主要的招生的對象那可是我們知道其實有很多華裔子弟都是在當地一般的中學來就讀那像這個部分的我們有沒有加強去做招生請問委員長"},{"start":481.985,"end":499.657,"text":"謝謝羅委員關心我們的畢業生頒獎典禮也都邀了我們所有外委會的委員謝謝您那天特別有出席我們在馬來西亞的部分有經過長期七八年的觀察意識到包括馬來西亞的六十所讀中他們在招生上面也都源而不足"},{"start":500.518,"end":504.121,"text":"因為馬來西亞的華裔人口已經從8年前的25%下降為22%所以他們自己的獨立中學也開始招收馬來裔以及印度裔的學生所以馬來西亞等於華裔人口是一直在下降的"},{"start":516.713,"end":519.735,"text":"學生人數當然也是下降加上它當地的國際型大學設立越來越多所以因為這樣子的一個變數呢我想這個是客觀局勢的一個轉變並非是我們的這個方案不足以吸引他們那所以近年來確實在僑生人數的變動上過去都是馬來西亞是第一名那今年到目前為止馬來西亞已經退到第三名了"},{"start":541.568,"end":560.196,"text":"第一名變成是越南第二名是印尼那第三名是馬來西亞但我們還有另外一個驚喜是日本居然衝到第四名了那所以有增有減的過程當中呢事實上馬來西亞是有微幅下降但是下降的趨勢還沒有非常的劇烈聯邦的部分好像下降的比較多"},{"start":560.656,"end":564.237,"text":"連招的部分有微幅下降微幅而已因為我們的產息班這種比較是專案型的絕大多數的學生比較沒有太大的興趣但是我們去年前年都有擴大往東馬沙巴這個區域因為東馬沙巴基本上它還是沒有什麼大學"},{"start":582.003,"end":589.685,"text":"他或是選擇來台灣或是選擇去馬來西亞西馬來就學我們招生還是東馬的多立中學所以我們現在是東華東馬的部分我們會加強招生因為這邊的學生人數確實有一定的可以在鼓勵的地方但是東馬的整體人口也是不過在300萬到400萬之間在整個馬來西亞的人口並不是非常非常的多數"},{"start":607.97,"end":629.949,"text":"不過這一區塊呢是有相當的學生有興趣來參加一些專班這樣子像產息班的這些學生的數額所以我們想未來可能會有增加這一部分的聲援會往上走那不只是馬來西亞的學生聲援我們也會持續拓展其他國家當然越南印尼因為他人口紅利很多那我們比較驚喜的是"},{"start":630.769,"end":647.334,"text":"日本近年來來台灣升學的這個人數快速的在增加從2022年不到千人到2023破千到去年一口氣三千多人所以這樣子的一個持續變化也是我們在國際社會裡面跟我們的經濟發展結構有非常大的一個關聯性所以後來後面我們也會持續的跟勞動部經濟部等相關單位來密切的這個聯繫了解各國的這個僑身的"},{"start":660.237,"end":664.878,"text":"發展動向那也盡可能把他們留下來那當天我們這些優秀的僑生呢在領獎的時候我都已經跟他們做過問卷了口頭馬上問卷十個裡面呢有八個會留在台灣兩個會回去那留下來的呢兩位會留下來大概繼續念研究所其餘的六位呢就進入就業市場那我想這樣子一個初步初略的這個優秀學生願意做出這麼多留台的這個"},{"start":688.406,"end":712.223,"text":"我相信這表示台灣還是有相當的吸引力是 因為我有看到就是說其他國家就如委員長所提的人數有增加可是馬來西亞喬生呢這是在下降對 在下降所以我覺得這個部分對我我自己來自於馬來西亞所以我覺得這部分應該還有努力的空間那當然因為時間的關係我想後面還有很多細節找機會再跟委員長這邊來做討論好 以上謝謝謝謝 謝謝羅委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":135,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時32分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部賴次長。"],["賴次長建信：委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：次長好。次長，根據外媒報導，美國政府預計在美東時間5月7號，也就是今天要公布半導體關稅的細節，過去川普一直認為臺灣竊取了美國的半導體，所以他說對臺灣徵收百分之百半導體的關稅是合理的。當然外媒也認為如果確定實施的話，對整體科技產業的發展會帶來毀滅性的後果。剛剛我也看到國發會有提到，美國商務部會依據貿易擴張法第二百三十二條分別針對一些產業課稅，昨天本席看到卓院長也提出半導體談判亦會依據貿易擴張法第二百三十二條來進行，這讓我們所擔心的就是，美國像川普一直認為臺灣竊取了美國的半導體，所以變成我們半導體的出口關稅，面臨高額關稅是難以避免，對不對？他已經提出要課百分之百，如果談判下來的話，所以次長您認為呢？我們半導體的部分是無法避免高關稅嗎？"],["賴次長建信：首先跟委員報告，我國半導體產業不但在產業競爭力或是在研發、製造，包括關鍵製程的部分，它立足於臺灣，當然未來我們也希望美國對等關稅的影響對於相關業者，除了半導體業者之外，還有EMS業者的衝擊影響降到最低，所以剛剛跟委員報告的，我們採取了3項措施，不管是行政的支持、金融的支持、多元的拓銷。至於剛剛所詢問的部分，美國政府部門有接受公眾評論的意見，政府也把相關公眾評論意見送交美國商務部，對於過去一段時間以來，我們經濟部跟廠商多次座談的意見，個別廠商也發表意見說他們也會透過他們的公司提送相關意見給美國政府做參考。"],["羅委員美玲：因為美國自己商務部針對半導體徵收高額度的關稅，其實他們也有提出一些徵詢，現在問題就是他們只收到10份意見書，所以恐會被美國商務部解讀為沒有很多反對意見，基本上，大家好像還滿支持半導體要課高額的關稅，這部分當然國內有國內的意見，可是美國商務部只有收到10份。過去他們也會針對類似的高額關稅提出徵詢，可是相對與過去比較，這次只有10份意見書，所以我們怎麼看這個部分呢？"],["賴次長建信：第一個，現在委員畫面中所提出來的資料是媒體的報導。"],["羅委員美玲：你有確實嗎？"],["賴次長建信：事實上，美國政府確實在多方地蒐集意見，剛剛跟委員說明了，除了政府提出政府部門的意見，提供美國商務部參考之外，廠商也會提供他的意見。至於未來美國公布之後，廠商會利用儘量減少成本的方式，甚至以接近客戶端的方式，儘量減少成本，所以我們這一次提出經行政院通過的特別條例草案裡面，對於穩定民生、減少廠商生產成本的部分，特別予以列入。除此之外，對於受到衝擊的部分，我們也針對大廠……坦白講大廠因應調適的能力是比較好的，我們所關切的是它所連動的下游供應鏈，所以對於中小企業還有包括供應鏈的轉型，也是我們特別注意的，因此這次在研發轉型的部分特別加碼。"],["羅委員美玲：因為時間的關係，我們都知道半導體是我國的經濟命脈，像美國的關稅政策，或是最近臺幣升值超過10%，這對我們的出口來講，其實是造成了很大的壓力。所以我想政府應該要戰戰兢兢、要針對所有可能發生的狀況，推出一些比較可以應處的政策，來降低整個系統性的風險。","OK，好，那次長請回。那再來我要邀請的是僑委會徐委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：羅委員早安。"],["羅委員美玲：委員長早安。你的手好了沒？"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝關心。"],["羅委員美玲：真的非常的辛苦，因為業務費被砍的關係，所以我知道委員長現在出國跟僑界聯繫，其實都是自己一個人出國，沒有辦法帶隨行的人員。前兩天我有發現委員長的手腫起來了，而且還弄了護腕，非常的辛苦，所以我希望在野黨能夠理性來看待這部分，因為跟僑界還有跟全世界僑胞的交流，對臺灣來講是非常重要的。","前天很謝謝僑委會邀請我參加了2025年畢業僑生委員長獎的頒獎典禮，這對畢業僑生來講是非常非常大的肯定。再來我也發現當天有很多獲獎的僑生，大部分都是馬來西亞的僑生，讓我覺得非常的光榮。馬來西亞的僑生一直以來都是臺灣很重要的僑生生源，可是如果去看數據的話，我們可以發現最近這幾年來，馬來西亞的僑生人數卻一直在下降。當然我們面臨的是鄰國，也許還有中國搶僑生的原因，再來還有馬來西亞學制的改變，就是他們的三年制學制，也讓很多僑生可能留在馬來西亞就學。針對馬來西亞的僑生一直在減少這個部分，我們到底有沒有什麼對策？因為過去對馬來西亞的招生，我們大部分都以六十幾所華文獨立中學的畢業生為主要的招生對象，可是其實有很多華裔子弟都是在當地一般中學就讀，針對這個部分，我們有沒有加強招生？請問委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝羅委員關心。我們的畢業生頒獎典禮也邀請了所有外委會的委員，謝謝您那天特別出席。我們在馬來西亞的部分經過長期七、八年的觀察，意識到包括馬來西亞的六十所獨中，他們在招生方面也都員額不足。因為馬來西亞的華裔人口已經從八年前的25%下降為22%，所以他們的獨立中學也開始招收馬來裔以及印度裔的學生。馬來西亞的華裔人口是一直在下降的，學生人數當然也是下降，加上當地的國際型大學越設立越多，我想這樣的變數是客觀局勢的轉變，並非是我們的方案不足以吸引他們。","近年來在僑生人數的變動上，過去馬來西亞確實都是第一名，但今年到目前為止馬來西亞已經退到第三名了，第一名變成是越南，第二名是印尼，第三名是馬來西亞，但讓我們驚喜的是，日本居然衝到第四名了。在有增有減的過程中，事實上馬來西亞是微幅下降，但是下降的趨勢還沒有非常的劇烈。"],["羅委員美玲：聯招的部分好像下降得比較多。"],["徐委員長佳青：聯招的部分有微幅下降，微幅而已。因為我們的產攜班這種比較專案型的，絕大多數的學生沒有太大的興趣，但是我們今年、去年及前年都有擴大往東馬、沙巴這個區域，因為東馬、沙巴基本上還沒有什麼大學，他們的學生或是選擇來臺灣或是選擇去西馬就學。"],["羅委員美玲：我們招生還是以東馬的獨立中學為主嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：對，我們現在在東馬的部分會加強招生，因為這邊的學生人數確實有可以再努力的地方，但是東馬的整體人口也不過是在三百萬到四百萬之間，占整個馬來西亞的人口並不是非常多。不過這個區塊是有相當多的學生有興趣來參加一些專班，像產攜班的學生數額，我們想未來可能會增加這一部分的生源。","另外不只是馬來西亞的學生生源，我們也會持續拓展其他國家，當然像越南、印尼因為人口紅利很多，那我們比較驚喜的是，日本近年來來臺灣升學的人數快速的增加，從2022年不到千人到2023破千，至去年一口氣三千多人，這樣子的持續變化，跟我們在國際社會中的經濟發展結構有非常大的關聯性。所以未來我們也會持續跟勞動部、經濟部等相關單位密切的聯繫，瞭解各國的僑生發展動向，儘可能把他們留下來。","當天這些優秀的僑生在領獎的時候，我已經跟他們做過問卷了，口頭馬上做問卷，十個裡面有八個會留在臺灣，兩個會回去，那留下來的兩位大概繼續念研究所，其餘的六位進入就業市場。我想這樣一個初步、粗略的口頭問卷調查，也有這麼多優秀學生願意做出留臺的承諾，我相信這表示臺灣還是有相當的吸引力。"],["羅委員美玲：是，因為我有看到，其他國家就如委員長所提的人數有增加，可是馬來西亞僑生卻在下降，因為我自己也是來自於馬來西亞，所以我覺得這部分應該還有努力的空間，因為時間的關係，我想後面還有很多細節，再找機會跟委員長來討論，好，以上謝謝。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝，謝謝羅委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅美玲上臺質詢，接下來由陳俊宇上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":234,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-11","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王定宇","徐巧芯","葉元之","陳永康","林憶君","馬文君"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長、經濟部次長、國家發展委員會副主任委員報告「美國對等關稅政策對僑\n台商全球布局之挑戰，及我政府協助僑台商之具體策略與措施」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00004"}}},{"id":"160980","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160980","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e06b8e83cdf0dc72985115e7528c8151ef5c49de4876f6fadf406c20c6f6eca227a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"09:27:19 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那我可不可以知道哪一個第三方支付業者透過那個出去最多這會不會是公開資訊啊"},{"start":266.295,"end":284.078,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分我們可以跟金管會來研商你們研商一下因為既然你們開會也不是秘密你們也不是秘密會議與會的人也應該蠻多的大家都看過那看過口耳相傳透過那個最危險以後大家不要再用那一種支付了"},{"start":284.398,"end":296.504,"text":"那不可以怕你們知道啊 不可以怕你們開胃的知道我們不去開胃的我們都不知道啊那到底可以公開到什麼地步 再請你們去研究一下好 謝謝委員第二個啊 我請問一下這個警政署這個警示帳戶啊 就是說有人去用詐騙啊早去派出所 早去分局報案嘛去報案之後就報案去跟偵查隊嘛 一般都跟偵查隊"},{"start":311.845,"end":325.357,"text":"請問署長你知不知道現在各分局偵查隊今天在辦詐騙的這個員警啊 批御本命你知道嗎知道 確實是非常嚴重非常嚴重嘛齁 所以很多人都不可以去偵查隊嘛 對不對沒有錯也不可以去白鴨嘛 也不可以去偵查隊因為那個公文往返啦"},{"start":331.242,"end":334.464,"text":"確實是目前的狀況對不對 調這個資料 調那個資料有時候都跨出警政署 都要調來調去都沒辦法結案嘛 一個案子都要補很久的民眾也沒辦法諒解 說你警察一個創下位 把你報案背了久 都查不到這個怎麼解決"},{"start":348.971,"end":365.648,"text":"包委員現在對於政黨隊這個警力我們有在做這一個研議補充的這個措施包括如果說有缺有不足的會用替代的這個警力會先補不足未來在訓練的部分"},{"start":366.289,"end":388.939,"text":"啊或者是留住人才的部分會再提高他的業務的工作的簡化或者是這一些提高他的這個行事家庭現在正在營利當中那我們在上次的一個在這邊的一個內委會的時候也有委員做這樣的執行我們在三個月裡面會來研議這個整個的一個一個促進行事的這個區塊加速來做解決這個問題偵查隊同仁喔 給我歡迎啦 說好啊這樣喔"},{"start":394.601,"end":401.326,"text":"那你們提到2月4號你們現在已經有一些電子化了的一個平台我們直接給它動來以前是紙本現在用電子化就減少這個就是這個公文往返的效率我現在另外一個課題是這樣這個我最近啊在做選民服務的時候啊"},{"start":422.964,"end":433.63,"text":"一堆民眾 他就描述 他說有一間投資公司啦這投資公司一開始賺20萬 又拿著錢 又賺50萬 又拿著錢他如果說30秒後 整群都說你當了詐騙民眾都知道 你當了詐騙 可是那個人堅持他說我沒有詐騙 我沒有被詐騙"},{"start":446.516,"end":467.481,"text":"啊我現在人家跟我說我如果再繼續投入那個錢就可以拿回來了然後全部人阻止他喔那是一個選民服務的場合喔好我現在講的是這個那你到了金融機構以後金融機構我們現在我們現在的客人去嫁郵局啦譬如說我現在幾十萬人去嫁郵局郵局很不便宜嘛就說你錢哪裡來的你怎麼有這個錢啊你怎麼這麼多錢啊問這些問題問題是為什麼有民眾"},{"start":476.403,"end":488.591,"text":"他領了十萬 又再領了二十萬 又再領了五十萬總共被騙了一兩百萬結果我們的金融機構 也是陸陸續續被抓了這警政署你們有辦法做什麼嗎"},{"start":506.663,"end":510.625,"text":"我們的行員我知道 他們的功課都有我現在的事也是這樣做的我知道 因為我去嫁錢 我如果去嫁錢他也會吃垃圾啦 這我都知道現在連開戶也很垃圾的 他說奇怪 你也沒有住一家 你也沒有一家吃頭"},{"start":526.812,"end":529.916,"text":"啊你如果早來我們這裡開口,就要問這些問題市長,這都善意了啦好,對,我知道,這個大家都理解,因為走去回到那些詐騙可是我的意思是說,為什麼有那個民眾啊他領了,可能一個年十萬,年二十萬"},{"start":544.31,"end":555.872,"text":"那這個行員可能就提醒他說你這個領了領了可是這個行員看不到他在別的金融機構的記錄嘛對不對他可能這個領十五萬 那個領十萬 那個領十萬他陸陸續續去領差不多一兩百萬出來系統也不會警示啊 現在要怎麼改觀委員現在系統會警示啦"},{"start":564.594,"end":591.229,"text":"現在金管會現在就是對於這些金融機構對於這些警示帳戶有可疑的或透過我們的這個通報的就是有警示的帳戶他就知道說這個虎頭是有可能是做人就是詐騙的這個帳戶有人回錢進來不是 他捏錢出去不是回錢進來捏錢出去 領錢出去可能就是他會看他的這個領出去的這個動機到底是怎麼樣不是 我現在說我在A銀行領了15萬"},{"start":594.512,"end":601.179,"text":"過了一個禮拜我在B銀行領了20萬再過三天我在C銀行領了10萬系統會不會警示"},{"start":603.827,"end":608.952,"text":"這個部分恐怕就 如果說不是警示賬戶的話就不會解釋警示賬戶叫什麼被騙的人啦 投資詐騙嘛被騙的人要10萬 20萬 可能分成 可能去這間銀行有時那間銀行說你訂在百貨公司要20萬你這個不能再唸喔 你這個復營派出所的人說你不能再唸 他就回去了嘛"},{"start":624.285,"end":645.061,"text":"他跑去北京這幾個名詞 這種投資詐騙一個名詞叫做潛在的被害人他被騙的時間大概長達兩個月或甚至半年以上我們去跟他勸了之後他也認為我們是阻止他投資的對就撐不起來嘛這個區塊我們現在有兩個層次就是我們發現這個就是這潛在被害人我們拍照第一時間就去跟他說你這是詐騙的因為他不想聽的時候我們就把他趕走"},{"start":652.648,"end":671.338,"text":"因為量有時候是多 就是員警先 第一時間先去去勸不行的時候幹部再去勸 再來配合他的家屬去勸不然他就回去了嘛 你這間不可以這樣我就去北京借定存 我定存出來之後我也是去投資 再20萬 再投資下去所以到最後那會是一個累積一個數字啦那這種"},{"start":673.799,"end":687.71,"text":"應該有打造中心指揮官在這,這研究一下,因為這種案子現在算蠻多的我覺得這個部分就是有,因為這個部份主要是金融事故,這個各銀行的這個整個連線那些東西我們要提打造中心來研究啦,來研究看這個可以連線嗎因為聽起來很可憐的啦"},{"start":693.476,"end":706.659,"text":"阿他喔 我跟他說 我跟他說他在說的時候 全場的人都知道他是欺凌詐騙喔他還問我說 委員你怎麼幫我請律師 要請到一個律師我說你律師他還開下去 你又再一條就是他不知道啊 他自己簽不起來啊所以我說喔 你們現在選團做得不錯所以全場的民眾都知道他講的是欺凌詐騙啊可是怕那個人不知道阿我覺得這種現在的狀況啊 搞不好還是很嚴重然後到最後就是"},{"start":722.014,"end":729.72,"text":"成立自救會啦 到最後也拿不回什麼錢啦我跟委員報告 我把委員今天這個執行議題非常好我們把這個潛在備案拿到行政院去做專報我們在這個議題有請行政院做專報要來做怎麼樣各部會來做一起來共同解決好 最後一個課題 主席再給我三分鐘就是說我們現在有加一個人要去參加什麼員工旅遊 去泰國"},{"start":750.199,"end":759.783,"text":"阿瑪對朋友的公司去泰國的公寓喔,到這裡幾公里再去不是泰國的地方嘛,跑去的什麼園區裡面就對了我們在機場啊,在台灣的機場,有沒有成功攔下多少人?說你不用去,這團是詐騙的,有沒有能夠攔下來?委員,整團是沒有的,但是個別攔了很多"},{"start":774.844,"end":795.977,"text":"各培就是從今年的元月到四月我們基金我們透過選投透過他要去買票到比較高風險的國家我不要講對的國家高風險的國家 東南亞這些國家我們南道的大概目前有幾個南道八九個都各培的但是整團的沒有啦"},{"start":797.998,"end":815.267,"text":"沒有那個整團啊整團目前為止是沒有遇到整團事實上去到東南寮有一些比較這些那個詐團的這個地方平常講他們要去的只是自己本身都知道他出去是要去做詐騙的工作"},{"start":818.092,"end":828.247,"text":"本身就知道他就是要去做詐騙的方法大部分所以說像這種零星個案的這一種是會有但是我們"},{"start":829.668,"end":836.393,"text":"目前為止沒有發現整團,整團都爆起了我聽過一種是這樣,就是說他現在這間公司在辦員工旅遊嘛這個員工他就借他們朋友啊朋友就帶他們公司去員工旅遊,也就是什麼普及島,幾天幾夜的那些都寫得很好聽,去到後面就坐遊覽車嘛我們出國去,我們怎麼知道遊覽車在哪一國,我們搞不清楚啊就坐坐坐,就坐到哪裡去"},{"start":856.747,"end":868.376,"text":"那些人是對他們的朋友去員工旅遊 家庭也跟他們說要對他們的朋友出國去旅遊我沒有接受整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團的簿 整團"},{"start":883.689,"end":883.849,"text":"我們會努力來繼續做"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":573,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時27分）主席，我們請打詐中心的指揮官跟警政署署長。"],["主席：麻煩署長還有打詐中心。"],["馬指揮官士元：召委早、委員早安。"],["王委員義川：指揮官好。請問一下打詐中心具體的工作內容是什麼？"],["馬指揮官士元：跟委員報告，因為我們是行政院的幕僚協調單位，所以我們最主要的工作是各部會有關打詐相關的工作，如果有跨部會協調的需要，我們會配合行政院的政委來跟各部會協調，而且管控我們在打詐綱領2.0裡面所有的工作指標。"],["王委員義川：好，你們在報告裡頭寫到第三方支付業者、電商跟線上遊戲業者必須善盡善良管理人的責任，對不對？這部分的成效怎麼樣？"],["馬指揮官士元：跟委員報告，我們現在在這個部分是分別由各部門、各部會……"],["王委員義川：我知道，但是你是一個平臺嘛！"],["馬指揮官士元：是。"],["王委員義川：成效怎麼樣？"],["馬指揮官士元：目前在打電商的部分，我們現在打詐的成果是它已經在下降，有關於剛剛提到第三方支付的部分，我們現在還有一些灰色地帶還要處理，尤其是現在有所謂的網購平臺上面利用第三方支付詐騙的，這個部分我們現在在跟第三方支付的主管機關……"],["王委員義川：他們有善盡善良管理人責任嗎？"],["馬指揮官士元：跟委員報告，那個可能要看個案，因為……"],["王委員義川：不是，你當一個指揮官，你整體評價業者有沒有善盡責任嘛？如果沒有善盡責任，我們在法規上要怎麼處理、在行政上要怎麼處理？"],["馬指揮官士元：報告委員，現在依法它一定要善盡責任。"],["王委員義川：我知道它要善盡責任，你報告也寫叫它善盡責任，但是你是指揮官，你總可以給現在的狀況一個評價，說他們還沒有善盡、還沒有做好啊，不然那個錢為什麼會一直被騙出去，就叫它善盡責任了，然後它說它有善盡，可是錢還一直出去、一直騙出去。我們的指揮官總要有一個態度，說他們這樣做不夠啦！"],["馬指揮官士元：跟委員報告，我們如果有發現任何的業者在善盡責任這塊不足的時候，我們一定會要求主管機關去處理。"],["王委員義川：好，這句話很好！你們要求了多少次？對方做了什麼事？"],["馬指揮官士元：跟委員報告，每兩個月我們都會有跨部會的協調會議，還有跟地方政府的協調會議，所以在每一次的協調會議裡面，我們都會列管，只要是跟部會執行打詐四法有關的，我們都會要求。"],["王委員義川：好。請問第三方支付電商跟線上遊戲業者最沒有善盡善良管理人責任的業者是公開資訊嗎？你們可以提醒國人用哪一個第三方支付有危險，叫他們善盡責任，他們都沒有；玩哪一個線上遊戲有危險，錢會被騙走。這個是公開資訊嗎？"],["馬指揮官士元：跟委員報告，這個部分如果主管機關有裁罰的話，就是公開資訊，所以要等主管機關裁罰。"],["王委員義川：有彙整到你們這裡來嗎？"],["馬指揮官士元：目前我們還沒有收到，我們有請主管機關要裁罰。"],["王委員義川：這什麼時候開始做的？"],["馬指揮官士元：這是打詐四法通過之後，我們會要求，已經在要求了。"],["王委員義川：你們會公開嗎？你們會統計嘛！"],["馬指揮官士元：我們會。"],["王委員義川：好，你們內部會議的時候會呈現嗎？"],["馬指揮官士元：我們會。"],["王委員義川：內部會議呈現會是公開資訊嗎？"],["馬指揮官士元：目前內部會議的資訊，我們沒有辦法公開。"],["王委員義川：好，我剛剛提到彙整完到內部會議，你們打詐中心相關的會議，各部會有來的這個會議，這些資訊我可以看得到哪一個第三方支付業者從那裡轉走最多錢嗎？不要講我，就說國人，國人可以看得到嗎？"],["馬指揮官士元：跟委員報告，因為第三方支付業者轉走錢的前端，它還有受詐的那個過程，就是詐騙集團本身是利用第三方支付業者。"],["王委員義川：對，我可不可以知道哪一個第三方支付業者，透過那個出去最多？這會不會是公開資訊？"],["馬指揮官士元：跟委員報告，有關這個部分，我們可以跟數發部來研商。"],["王委員義川：好，你們研商一下，因為既然你們開會也不是秘密，你們也不是秘密會議，與會的人也應該滿多的，大家都看過，看過口耳相傳，知道透過那個最危險，以後大家不要再用那一種支付了，這不能只有你們知道，不能只有你們開會知道，我們沒去開會，我們都不知道。到底可以公開到什麼地步，再請你們去研究一下。"],["馬指揮官士元：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員義川：第二個，我請問一下警政署。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["王委員義川：警示帳戶，就是有人被詐騙，跑去派出所、跑去分局報案，報案之後，案件就到偵察隊，一般都是到偵察隊，請問署長知不知道現在各分局偵察隊在辦詐騙的員警疲於奔命，你知道嗎？"],["張署長榮興：知道，確實是非常嚴重。"],["王委員義川：非常嚴重嘛！所以很多人都不要去偵察隊對吧？"],["張署長榮興：沒有錯。"],["王委員義川：寧願去別的地方，也不要去偵察隊，因為公文往返……"],["張署長榮興：確實是目前的狀況。"],["王委員義川：調這個資料、調那個資料，有時候都跨出警政署，在那邊調來調去都沒辦法結案，一個案子都要弄很久，民眾也沒辦法諒解你們警察在做什麼，跟你們報案報那麼久了都查不到，這個怎麼解決？"],["張署長榮興：報告委員，現在對於偵察隊的警力，我們有在研議補充的措施，包括如果有缺額不足的，會用替代的警力先補不足，未來在訓練的部分或者是留住人才的部分，會再提高他業務工作的簡化或者是提高他的刑事加給，現在正在研擬當中。我們上次在內委會這邊的時候，也有委員做這樣的質詢，我們在三個月裡面會研議整個促進刑事的這個區塊……"],["王委員義川：好，加速啦！"],["張署長榮興：加速解決這個問題。"],["王委員義川：不然偵察隊同仁跟我反映詐騙的事件一直來報案，他們又不是不辦，但是會文給各單位，各單位再回來都要時間。"],["張署長榮興：對，稍微要一點時間。"],["王委員義川：要一點時間嘛！你們提到2月4日，你們現在已經有一些電子化的平臺，可以直接把它擋下來。"],["張署長榮興：對，以前是紙本，現在用電子化，減少公文往返的時間，增加效率。"],["王委員義川：好，我現在另外一個課題是這樣，我最近在做選民服務的時候，一堆民眾就描述，他說有一間投資公司，他一開始對那間投資公司投入20萬，都有領到錢，再來又投入50萬，也有領到錢。他差不多說了30秒以後，整群人都說他遇到詐騙，民眾都知道他遇到詐騙，可是那個人堅持他沒有被詐騙。現在人家跟他說他如果再繼續投入，那個錢就可以拿回來了，然後全部的人都阻止他，那是一個選民服務的場合。我現在講的是這個，到了金融機構以後，像我們現在把錢存在郵局，譬如我拿幾十萬到郵局存，郵局很囉唆，會問錢從哪裡來、怎麼有這麼多錢等，都問這些問題，問題是為什麼有民眾領了10萬，再領20萬，又再領50萬，總共被騙了1、200萬，結果我們的金融機構也是讓他陸陸續續領出去，這部分警政署有辦法幫忙嗎？"],["張署長榮興：有啦！報告委員，現在有關金融機構的阻詐，我們跟金管會有合作，當行員覺得這有詐騙現象時，第一時間一定會通知派出所到達現場解決。"],["王委員義川：行員的部分我知道，這……"],["張署長榮興：他們會通知派出所到現場處理。"],["王委員義川：對，這個你們的廣告都有，我都知道。"],["張署長榮興：現在也都是這樣做。"],["王委員義川：對，我知道、我知道，因為我去存錢，他們都很囉唆，這我都知道，現在連開戶也很囉唆，他會說：奇怪！你又沒有住在這裡，也沒有在這裡工作，怎麼會跑來我們這裡開戶？他會問這些問題……"],["張署長榮興：委員，這都是善意的。"],["王委員義川：對，我知道，這個大家都理解，因為怕遇到詐騙，但我的意思是，為什麼有民眾可能一天領10萬、20萬，這樣陸陸續續慢慢領，行員可能有提醒他，但是行員看不到他在別的金融機構的紀錄，對不對？他可能這裡領15萬，那裡領10萬，陸陸續續差不多領了1、200萬出來，系統也不會警示，這要怎麼解決？"],["張署長榮興：沒有，委員，現在系統會警示，金管會現在對於金融機構會有這些警示帳戶，就是有可疑的或透過我們通報的，就有警示帳戶，然後它就知道這個戶頭有可能是詐騙帳戶，有人匯錢進來……"],["王委員義川：不是，他是領錢出去，不是匯錢進來。"],["張署長榮興：領錢出去，可能也會看領出去的動機到底是怎麼樣，會看他的動機。"],["王委員義川：譬如我在A銀行領了15萬，過了一個禮拜，在B銀行領了20萬，再過三天，在C銀行領了10萬，系統會不會警示？"],["張署長榮興：這個部分恐怕……如果不是警示帳戶，就不會警示，要警示帳戶才可以。"],["王委員義川：對嘛！因為是投資詐騙，被騙的人領10萬、20萬，可能還是去這間銀行領錢，銀行會告訴他上禮拜才領20萬，有危險性，不要再領了等等，然後派出所也勸他不要再領，所以他就回去了，但他跑去別間金融機構啊！"],["張署長榮興：委員，這有一個名詞，這種投資詐騙的一個名詞叫「潛在的被害人」，他被騙的時間大概長達兩個月或甚至半年以上，我們勸他的時候，他也認為我們是阻止他投資，他就醒不過來啊！"],["王委員義川：這部分要怎麼處理？"],["張署長榮興：這個區塊我們現在有兩個層次，就是我們發現潛在被害人時，派出所第一時間會跟他說這是詐騙，他如果不聽，會改由我們的幹部前往。因為數量多的時候，會由員警第一時間先勸，勸不醒的時候，幹部再去勸，再來就是配合他的家屬去勸。"],["王委員義川：不是，因為這間銀行不讓他領，他就去別間解定存，定存解出來之後，也是20萬再投資下去，到最後會是一個累積的數字。現在打詐中心的指揮官也在場，這部分應該要研究一下，因為這種案子現在算蠻多的。"],["張署長榮興：這部分主要涉及金融機構各銀行的連線要重新規劃，我們會把問題提到打詐中心，研究看看這塊是否可以連線。"],["王委員義川：因為這聽起來很可憐，全場的人都知道他被詐騙，他還問我說：委員，你可不可以幫我請律師，要請哪一個律師？我只能回說請律師你又要再花一筆錢。"],["張署長榮興：就是他不知道，他自己醒不起來啊！"],["王委員義川：其實你們現在宣傳做得不錯，全場民眾都知道他就是被詐騙……"],["張署長榮興：沒有錯。"],["王委員義川：就只有那個人不知道，我覺得這種狀況還是很嚴重，到最後就只能成立自救會，也拿不回什麼錢啊！"],["張署長榮興：委員今天這個質詢議題非常好，我們也有把這個潛在被害人的問題提到行政院做專報，由各部會一起討論，共同來解決。"],["王委員義川：好，最後一個問題，就是現在有很多人參加員工旅遊到泰國去，有的是跟朋友的公司到泰國員工旅遊，下車之後，整群被載到不是泰國的什麼園區，請問，我們在臺灣的機場有沒有成功攔下這些人，要他們不要去，告訴他們這一團是詐騙的？有沒有攔下來的？"],["張署長榮興：委員，團體是沒有，但是個別攔了很多，從今年元月到4月，我們在機場透過宣導，如果旅客買票到比較高風險的國家，我不要說是哪個國家，就是高風險的東南亞這些國家，目前航警局給我們的資料顯示，大概攔到8、9位，這些都是個別的。"],["王委員義川：會不會太少了？"],["張署長榮興：團體的沒有啦！沒有整團的，目前為止是沒有遇到整團的，事實上，要到東南亞這些比較是詐團的地方，憑良心講，他們自己本身都知道是出去做詐騙的工作。"],["王委員義川：是喔？"],["張署長榮興：本身就知道是要去做詐騙的工作，大部分啦！"],["王委員義川：噢！大部分喔！"],["張署長榮興：大部分，所以像這種零星個案的會有，但目前為止，我們沒有發現整團去東南亞的。"],["王委員義川：我聽過一種情形，就是公司辦員工旅遊，員工就找朋友一起去，然後朋友就跟著他們公司去員工旅遊，也是什麼普吉島幾天幾夜的，都寫得很好聽，到了之後就坐上遊覽車，我們出國玩，怎麼知道遊覽車在哪一國，我們搞不清楚，然後就坐、坐，不知道坐到哪裡，之後就進去那個園區，那個人是跟著朋友去員工旅遊，家長也覺得是跟著朋友出國玩，這種……"],["張署長榮興：委員，我跟你報告，我們沒有接獲這種整團的報案，整團的沒有。"],["王委員義川：整團的沒有？"],["張署長榮興：沒有啦！整團的沒有，如果是整團，最後新聞都會報出來啊！沒有整團的，就是一些個別零星的。"],["王委員義川：好，我是希望在機場能夠攔阻多少算多少，不然到時候家長又說小孩跟人家去哪裡玩沒有回來，也連絡不到等等。"],["張署長榮興：是，是，我們會繼續努力。"],["王委員義川：OK，謝謝。"],["張署長榮興：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","吳思瑤","麥玉珍","李坤城","林月琴","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","林倩綺","沈發惠","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":423,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心指揮官、內政\n部警政署署長、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就\n「臺灣遭聯合國警示為東亞、東南亞跨國詐欺集團據點之檢討與防範，及打詐四法與相關子法施\n行後之具體成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00008"}}},{"id":"160979","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160979","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e06137fe9b8c21884986a086056f51b23ebc49de4876f6fadf460660e2fbd13dbfe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"09:29:55 - 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谢谢委员问这个问题因为基本上"},{"start":181.91,"end":193.722,"text":"這個這次的事件真的是的確在過去沒有發生過我們也展開非常清楚的去了解像那個易上有限公司他本身是在台灣負責一些活動"},{"start":195.623,"end":221.955,"text":"然後另外那一家超級娛樂它是一個澳門公司它負責在境外負責找一些藝人的聯絡所以我們就去找經濟部來詢問超級娛樂並沒有在台灣設立分公司或子公司也沒有辦法得到它的股權結構所以它本身在台灣是不能經營這個的那根據我們這個文創法第十條之一我們文化部所管轄的這個"},{"start":224.11,"end":228.296,"text":"活動是非常具體的定義在有音樂戲劇舞蹈"},{"start":230.632,"end":256.076,"text":"這些形式的表演中間發生這種黃牛事件那這些事情我想委員知道我們這些年來已經花了很大力氣在阻止這個事情所以部長的意思是說在台灣正式售票是由益尚公司來做主導那也就是說現在目前粉絲在網路上看到的境外的售票的部分是不受保障的是這意思嗎"},{"start":257.737,"end":279.331,"text":"應該這樣講 因為我們對於藝術公司在這邊辦這個活動見面會也好 其他會也好我們可能要呼籲網路上叫大家不要去買這個網路上販售不明票券可能會是一個詐欺之外我們還有一個社會秩序維護法可以用來作為一個消費者權益的保障"},{"start":280.25,"end":302.218,"text":"那至於環牛票本身的檢舉案我們會看他這個個案來處理不過委員問到這個問題我覺得的確是一個灰色地帶因為我們不知道就是剛剛我所提到的這個超級娛樂澳門文化傳播公司雖然這個藝商公司是跟我們文化部來提及這個屬於澳門就是剛剛講的這個超級娛樂"},{"start":304.179,"end":328.925,"text":"他雖然沒有介入到票券的一個處理他是處理藝人的部分但我們怎麼知道說藝商公司跟這間公司有沒有相關聯性在網路上來做直接黃牛就直接檯面化了啦這個部分我們是不是應該要更嚴謹的去查核然後再來剛剛有提到所謂的粉絲見面會喔或者是我們現在其實規範的其實沒有包含粉絲見面會但是這個沒有見"},{"start":330.925,"end":351.267,"text":"但這個其實是蠻大的一塊需要被約束需要被查核的一塊我們的法規是不是應該文傳法要把這個類的部分的藝文的相關的表演的活動因為粉絲見面會當中其實還是會有表演的性質在裡面這個部分是不是應該之後也要與時俱進的一個來修法"},{"start":353.417,"end":379.129,"text":"當初我們設立文創法其實是本來是都是在鼓勵文創事業後來是因為黃流發生之後把它定在十條之一但是我剛剛有提到我們一直侷限在音樂戲劇舞蹈的正式表演那剛剛衍生出來非常多為了要吸引粉絲的見面會啊簽名會啊或者怎樣怎樣這些可能是社會秩序維護法之外我想我們"},{"start":380.009,"end":387.055,"text":"因為我們也擔心這些所謂的有中資背景的一些平台他們其實是會繞道來做操作等於是他們繞道做這個所謂的票券上的一個販賣的一個銷售掌控的一個操作所以這個部分這個灰色地帶我們想這個文化部可能我們還要再加把勁來杜絕"},{"start":398.144,"end":412.472,"text":"也就是說來保障更多的消費者的權益因為可想而知就算他是5月10號開始正式由這個藝商公司來做開賣的一個動作但可能在之前已經有很多人是在網路上用加價的方式來選位來做這樣子的一個"},{"start":415.373,"end":434.599,"text":"到時候如果真的產生所謂的消費者的糾紛那這個意商公司他可能講說這個不關我管啊這個其實是境外的這個公司的問題啊是你自己活該上當啊那如果這樣子的話其實在法規上的規避我們其實無法可管的一個情況之下其實就有可能會發生很多類似的糾紛這個部分我們文化部再來研議好嗎"},{"start":435.564,"end":441.231,"text":"沒問題 我們再來去演繹像他這樣的行為好 那這個時間有限我想這個最新的一個媒體報導就是川普他再次的拋出相當強硬的一個政策就主張對所謂的境外製作的一個電影要苛徵百分之百的一個關稅來保護好萊塢跟這個美國本土的一些內容的產業"},{"start":456.588,"end":478.898,"text":"但針對這一點我們有沒有因應的方法因為現在其實有很多的台灣的一些戲劇的一些作品或者是影音上的一個作品其實我們都是到美國去取景或者是跟美國相關的一些合作跟發行那也有很多部的戲劇或者是類似的這樣子的一個作品是跟這個ODT平台來做合作那如果說這類的作品將來也可能會面臨到這個部分的一個課稅的重稅的部分"},{"start":484.64,"end":499.65,"text":"會不會失去國際的競爭力我們有沒有因應之道其實基本上美國電影來台灣的比例遠遠高過我們台灣電影去美國的比例我們大概這五年大概只有五部電影去到美國但是未來的確會有很多國際合作"},{"start":501.611,"end":514.008,"text":"還有就是剛剛講OTT才是更嚴重比如Netflix它大部分都是在國外拍那我們已經其實我們這幾天已經進行了一個重新盤點所有未來的可能因為川普講這個100%之後他"},{"start":516.511,"end":544.69,"text":"附帶的其他細節包括OTT或者是合拍等等他還沒有講出來但是我想我們整個文化部因為不只是在那邊拍才叫做這個作品他有可能有很多的後製有可能很多的其他的部分其實都是在那個地方做的包括動畫在台灣後製也蠻多所以剛剛委員講的這些東西我們已經在盤點各單位我們自己部門未來萬一有新的狀況發生我們有些因應之道"},{"start":545.66,"end":559.259,"text":"所以其實如果我們現在開始來做盤點其實也不能做個靜觀其變因為我們永遠趕不上這個川普他隨時說的這些變化所以可能要隨時都要ready好隨時準備好好那今天因為時間的關係就問到這裡謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":147,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（9時29分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請李部長。"],["李部長遠：委員，你好。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長早安。本席現在要質詢的其實不單純是黃牛的問題，而是是否有所謂的境外中資要透過港澳的空殼公司，到臺灣來主辦相關的藝文活動。因為這一陣子我們接到不少相關的陳情，當然也會擔心類似這樣子的藝文活動會有壟斷票源、規避法規，甚至破壞我們的文化治理和消費者權益的重大漏洞。近期我們接獲的陳情以LING 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ORM的見面會為例，主辦單位是超奇娛樂澳門文化傳播有限公司宣布5月10日（禮拜六）才要在臺灣正式售票。但是目前我們在網路上看到一些中國相關的境外平臺已經在預售大量高價票券，甚至還附加選位或加價服務。這種完全跳過臺灣的票務系統跟管道的做法，會不會讓文化部原本應有的監管功能失去效果？講白一點，就是消費者其實沒得選擇，也沒有辦法保障自己的權益，那麼我們的藝文產業是不是也有可能被這樣的境外資本牽著鼻子走？這是我們比較擔心的。","過去我們碰到的黃牛大部分是用搶票程式取得票券，再釋放到網路上轉賣，對此，目前我們是根據文創法第十條之一來開罰，效果當然是有，但抓到的可能還是有限。以我剛剛講的5月10日即將舉辦的見面會的售票狀況而言，如果它的操作完全發生在境外，我們根本監管不到，屆時如果發生消費糾紛，消費者會不會沒有申訴管道和任何保障，以致其權益形同處在真空狀態？","我們知道文化部其實從去年12月開始就推廣票券實名制，也跟六都開過會，針對萬人以上的大型活動進行相關的補助。但是如果從這次的事件來看，針對境外主辦繞過正規售票，甚至大規模黃牛化的行為，文化部要怎麼正視這個問題？怎麼補上這個缺口？將來是不是也會主動和投審會及陸委會成立跨部門的稽核機制？"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員問這個問題，這次的事件過去的確沒有發生過，我們也展開非常清楚的瞭解，藝尚有限公司本身是在臺灣負責一些活動，另外那家超奇娛樂是一家澳門公司，負責在境外和藝人聯絡，所以我們就去找經濟部詢問，超奇娛樂並沒有在臺灣設立分公司或子公司，沒有辦法得到它的股權結構，所以它本身在臺灣是不能經營這個的。根據文創法第十條之一，文化部所管轄的活動非常具體地定義在音樂、戲劇、舞蹈這些形式的表演，中間發生這種黃牛事件，委員知道我們這些年來已經花了很大的力氣在阻止這些事情，尤其是……"],["郭委員昱晴：所以部長的意思是在臺灣正式售票是由藝尚公司主導，也就是說，目前粉絲在網路上看到的境外售票是不受保障的，是這個意思嗎？"],["李部長遠：應該這樣講，因為我們對藝尚公司在這邊辦這個活動，見面會也好、其他的會也好，我們可能要呼籲大家不要去買網路上販售的不明票券，除了可能是詐欺之外，我們還有一個社會秩序維護法可以用來保障消費者的權益。對於黃牛票本身的檢舉案，我們會視個案來處理，不過委員問到這個問題，我覺得的確是一種灰色地帶……"],["郭委員昱晴：對，因為我們不知道剛剛我所提到的超奇娛樂澳門文化傳播公司的狀況，雖然藝尚公司跟文化部提及超奇娛樂公司是處理藝人的部分，並沒有介入票券的處理，但我們怎麼知道藝尚公司和這家公司有沒有關聯性，就是在網路上直接讓黃牛檯面化了！這個部分是不是應該要更嚴謹地去查核？","再來是剛剛有提到的粉絲見面會，現在我們的規範並沒有包含粉絲見面會，但這其實是滿大一塊需要被約束、被查核的部分，我們的文創法是不是應該把相關的藝文表演活動納進去？因為粉絲見面會還是具有表演的性質，所以之後是不是應該針對這個部分與時俱進地進行修法？"],["李部長遠：當初制定文創法本來是在鼓勵文創事業，後來是因為黃牛的問題而增訂第十條之一，但是我剛剛也有提到，我們一直侷限在音樂、戲劇、舞蹈的正式表演，至於衍生出來的非常多為了吸引粉絲的見面會、簽名會等等，這些可能是社會秩序維護法之外……"],["郭委員昱晴：因為我們也擔心這些具有中資背景的平臺會繞道掌控票券販賣的操作，針對這個灰色地帶，文化部可能還要再加把勁予以杜絕，以保障更多消費者的權益。可想而知，就算這個活動的票券是在5月10開始正式由藝尚公司開賣，但在這之前可能已經有很多人在網路上用加價的方式來選位，到時候如果真的產生消費糾紛，藝尚公司可能會說不歸它管、這是那家境外公司的問題、是你自己活該上當啊！而我們在法規上確實又無法可管，就有可能發生很多類似的糾紛，這個部分請文化部再來研議，好嗎？"],["李部長遠：沒問題，我們再來研議像它這樣的行為……"],["郭委員昱晴：時間有限，最新一則媒體報導指出，川普再次拋出一個相當強硬的政策，就是他主張對境外製作的電影課徵100%的關稅，來保護好萊塢和美國本土的內容產業，針對這一點，我們有沒有因應的方法？因為現在臺灣有很多戲劇或影音作品會到美國取景，或者是和美國方面有相關的合作、發行，也有很多部戲劇或類似作品是跟OTT平臺合作，如果這類作品將來也會被課重稅，我們會不會失去國家競爭力？文化部有沒有因應之道？"],["李部長遠：其實基本上美國電影來臺灣的比例遠遠高過我們臺灣電影去美國的比例，這5年我們大概只有5部電影去美國，但是未來的確會有很多國際合作，還有就是剛剛講的OTT才更嚴重，譬如Netflix，它大部分的影片都是在國外拍的，其實我們這幾天已經重新盤點未來所有的可能，因為川普講了100%關稅之後，它所附帶的其他細節，包括OTT或者是合拍等等還沒有講出來，但是我想我們整個文化部……"],["郭委員昱晴：因為不只是在那邊拍才叫做這樣的作品，可能很多後製或者是很多其他的部分都是在那個地方做的。"],["李部長遠：沒錯！包括動畫在臺灣後製也滿多的，所以剛剛委員講的這些東西我們已經請部內各單位在盤點，未來萬一有新的狀況發生，我們有一些因應之道。"],["郭委員昱晴：如果我們現在開始來做盤點，其實也不能靜觀其變，因為我們永遠趕不上川普隨時說出來的這些變化，所以可能隨時都要準備好。"],["李部長遠：好！"],["郭委員昱晴：今天因為時間的關係，我就問到這裡。謝謝。"],["李部長遠：謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員。部長請回。","接下來請劉書彬委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-10","speakers":["林宜瑾","郭昱晴","劉書彬","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","柯志恩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳秀寳","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","葉元之","范雲","蘇巧慧","黃捷","陳培瑜","邱志偉"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算解凍案49案","agenda_id":"1144601_00005"}}},{"id":"160978","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160978","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e06941e4838e6362d0b115e7528c8151ef5c49de4876f6fadf4e86ae137a36932bf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:10:11 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POC是什麼這個這個這個這個我我我對這個我沒有去注意到這個POC的這個"},{"start":194.805,"end":222.617,"text":"部長你不是說你看過報告嗎我看過就是最主要的是因為我們有做一個來來來我再往下看你說你地圖沒看沒有關係來看一下內文右上角BG1是一個被他所沒有點名的集團他那個集團來你看右上角他說這是在二十幾年前在台灣POC所設立的"},{"start":223.681,"end":244.048,"text":"部長看到這個POC的時候不會覺得很奇怪嗎?這POC指的是什麼?很抱歉我是看那個範例的你是看翻譯的,那部裡面的同仁他怎麼翻譯給你的?台灣POC他怎麼翻的?"},{"start":250.629,"end":257.155,"text":"布長你跟我說你看過,你看翻譯本沒有關係,我好奇的是布裡面的統人,台灣POC是怎麼翻給你看的?"},{"start":259.019,"end":287.328,"text":"這我想這個委員吼不會在這個我有看過整個一個一個整個鑰匙吼這個裡面就是說他這跟台灣有關其實他講這四個案例這個四個案例就是說他比如說他那個負責人他那個一個一個一個部長對不起我還是打斷一下啦我們一個城市一個城市的問題啦我想我們不要再去談這個POCPOC他對我們中華民國是一個是一個不禮貌的一個稱呼啦"},{"start":287.648,"end":306.835,"text":"那所以部長你顯然知道POC是什麼嗎?這個我想這個委員你是何必在這邊問我齁那我想奇怪我在這邊問你這個問題有很過分嗎?對你要問的不是這樣問說我們跟台灣就是我們國家這四個案例最主要是四個案例不是啊剛剛部長你說我不必要在這邊問你但"},{"start":308.876,"end":331.216,"text":"這個牽涉到台灣的國格啊這個聯合國它這裡面的一個寫法本來就是對台灣是不友善的是 非常好 你說得非常好嘛所以部長你明明就知道POC是什麼 這個我才說台灣跟這個辦公室是不是有任何的互動當出現這樣子的國家報告對台灣不友善的時候別人對我們不友善 我們自己要有立場嘛"},{"start":332.037,"end":348.302,"text":"其實我要講的就是這一句話啦這個就是我們是標示我們是中華民國嘛是啊那他顯然就不是這樣標示嘛這個我想這個委員都清楚我想這個不禮貌的這個對台灣很不友善的一個稱呼那我想這部分"},{"start":349.698,"end":374.846,"text":"所以我們就這部分的我們就來研究說這部分到底裡面到底四個案例嘛那我們有看過這四個案例委員大概也應該也看過嘛這個是案例就是說他的負責人或者是說那些跟台灣以前有二十幾年就以前有關這裡面我們很注意看這裡面到底有沒有人名有沒有公司的名稱有沒有查證的方向這個對我們來講我們是很有興趣去做一個瞭解啦"},{"start":375.066,"end":399.841,"text":"所以到目前為止了解的狀況怎麼樣我現在就一個問題一個問題來啦剛第一個我其實要跟部長講的是說啊聯合國這樣標示我們任何台灣人看了都會不高興嗎其實我只是要make一個point我們的政府要有反應如此而已第二個部分就剛剛啊部長說要去了解這個business group one他們所標示的"},{"start":400.885,"end":408.914,"text":"BG1指的是哪一個集團現在法務不了解的狀況如何有辦法特定是哪一個集團嗎"},{"start":410.063,"end":436.296,"text":"他這個因為他這個沒辦法去查證去查證因為他是有提到聯合國出的報告沒有辦法查證那問題大了那這個20多年前在台灣成立嘛那也移到中南亞或其他國家那我國只是早期的註冊來看一下部務長請你看一下我為什麼要把原文標出來你看一下右下角的"},{"start":437.95,"end":453.004,"text":"你看右上角沒錯啊,它是二十幾年前在台灣成立的嘛一個非常線上,非常大的博弈集團嘛線上非常大的博弈集團從台灣出發然後擴展到東南亞各國,這個是右上角那段講的嘛"},{"start":454.212,"end":468.357,"text":"我有興趣的是右下角的那一段右下角的那一段說這個集團到目前為止包括在台灣還設立了非常多的紙上公司在從事非法的活動"},{"start":469.517,"end":488.335,"text":"今天我們看一個聯合國的報告第一個如果這個聯合國的報告寫得不實那我們應該要有國家的態度嘛第二個如果這個聯合國的報告寫出了我們自己的檢調沒有掌握的部分那我們就應該要去了解嘛這個才是實事求是的方法嘛"},{"start":489.216,"end":505.643,"text":"所以第三個我要問的事情是說他說BG1的這個集團在目前在台灣還設有很多紙上公司這件事情法務部我們的檢調或者是行政院打詐中心還是警政署有進行任何了解嗎"},{"start":507.524,"end":533.166,"text":"這個裡面有提到就是有些集團齁上海集團就是跟以台灣為基地的三合會那這部分那個那個是下一頁啦請你針對一個一個問題回答嘛你講的這些都是什麼這都是沒有具體的一個所以你認為這個聯合國的報告沒有具體的內容嗎沒有具體的一個一個人名公司名嘛那當然所以無從追查嗎"},{"start":533.726,"end":538.67,"text":"聯合國這份報告的品質顯然大有問題嘛按照部長你今天的態度基本上就是這個樣子嘛這個我們會請調查局來持續今天調查局有來嗎來請調查局"},{"start":556.533,"end":567.601,"text":"部長看起來不是很熟啦局長應該比較熟啊他右下角所講的說在台灣還有一些紙上公司調查局有去了解嗎我們現在正在試圖要去了解當中需要多久"},{"start":569.579,"end":595.08,"text":"呃...這個我不敢給委員一個很明確的...我這樣說好了啦我會認真的...認真的去...今天...沒有關係啦你...你可以繼續講形容詞這個我都尊重啦我只想跟法務部跟調查局講一個共同的概念任何看完這一份聯合國調查報告的人會覺得你們今天所提出來的書面報告沒有回應到它裡面所指出來的問題"},{"start":596.503,"end":618.132,"text":"第一個任何看完這份報告的人會覺得你們今天所提出來的報告沒有回應到他的問題那當然我這樣的評價對還是不對所有的人大家都有眼睛都可以去閱讀都可以去思考有人會說看完了以後如果我講的不對那我自然而然會受到社會輿論的指責嗎"},{"start":620.392,"end":648.464,"text":"說黃國昌你胡說八道我們法務部的報告我們調查局的報告對聯合國的這份報告其實做了非常充分的回應有人或許會有這樣的想法我不知道但我負責任的講我看完這份報告了以後我必須要說不管是法務部的報告還是調查局今天提出來的報告其實都沒有在回應講不及格三個字或許太沉重了來第二個問題"},{"start":649.824,"end":673.811,"text":"BG-1他上面提到跟台灣黑道目前的合作關係這個合作關係調查局有去了解嗎我們現在都是這個報告對我們來說其實都很新我們之前確實是沒有去注意到這一份報告這個報告什麼時候出版的四月的時候四月嘛所以 昭緯其實"},{"start":676.414,"end":694.379,"text":"也蠻有眼光的啊挑了一份你們之前沒有注意到的報告提醒你們注意這份報告是在上次委員會的時候好像是王宏威委員他第一次提出我們才注意到有這份報告我們必須要很誠實的說那我們也馬上去找到這份報告來看"},{"start":695.879,"end":713.689,"text":"那報告的內容其實他聯合國他也有一個很明確的說法說這個是他的員工還有就是說他聯合國也沒有經過證實這一整個報告的內容但是我們還是很重視等一下局長我去建議你啦你的意思是說聯合國出了這個報告"},{"start":714.77,"end":740.688,"text":"但他沒有確認這個報告的內容 這個事情很大條喔是在他報告裡面寫的 我們都看過了但是我們對他報告的內容所指出跟我們台灣有關的部分我們仍然相當相當的重視OK 沒關係啦 之前沒有注意到嘛因為委員的質詢讓你們注意到嘛我們很謝謝委員 謝謝那現在開始要去追蹤啦 我們拭目以待啦給你們一點時間啦 讓你們有時間去注意到"},{"start":741.909,"end":765.864,"text":"因為包括了裡面這個Red Dragon到底指的是哪一個幫派以及接下來在這個聯合國的報告下面台灣的國際形象我必須要說啦對台灣的國際形象傷害蠻大的如果裡面的報告有不實的部分那就希望法務部跟調查局發一個正式的聲明嚴正"},{"start":766.772,"end":776.546,"text":"的駁斥那如果裡面有報告是你們該知道卻沒有知道的事情有這個情資啊就進一步繼續啊往下追因為"},{"start":778.145,"end":803.168,"text":"針對有關於來台灣這一邊設立不管是詐騙集團洗錢的網絡利用金融科技當作名義成立的公司事實上在報告裡面甚至連公司的名字你真的要去找的話其實是找得出來的其實是找得出來在台灣設立了好幾年到去年的時候10月才突然宣布停業但沒有關係"},{"start":804.409,"end":819.344,"text":"法務部也好 調查局也好說上個月之前沒有注意到最近注意到這個報告 願意去蒐集是好事最後的時間我只想請問一下法務部我們吹哨者保護法如期上路準備好了沒有"},{"start":820.625,"end":843.121,"text":"這不有廉政署在準備執法的一個釘釘吹哨者保護法是為了保護吹哨人嗎如果今天吹哨者向廉政署去檢舉的話廉政署應該揭露吹哨者的身份嗎這個吹哨者身份是要保密的啊這個吹哨者身份是要保護的嗎好來 請部長看一下"},{"start":845.865,"end":866.122,"text":"民眾向廉政署檢舉說請政署有人扶抱加班費那剛剛部長回答了我第一個問題廉政署不應該洩漏檢舉員的身份給原單位這個基本的原則沒有問題嗎這個檢舉的 如果說檢舉原單位當然是不應該去是嗎 是不適合去"},{"start":874.285,"end":900.305,"text":"那個不是不適合根本就不應該嘛剛剛你回答的答案就很標準嘛來請部長回去瞭解結果聯政署處理的方式是直接叫內政部警政署保安警察第二大隊第二總隊第一大隊直接回函給檢舉員直接告訴警政署"},{"start":901.499,"end":928.047,"text":"保安警察隊到底是誰檢舉的啊?這個是現在廉政署處理事情的SOP嗎?那個公文的字號114年3月19號保二一督制地114001942號函廉政署轉給保二直接請保二回函給檢舉人我現在就看不懂了"},{"start":929.264,"end":944.86,"text":"因為有人來跟我投訴啊跟廉政署檢舉結果廉政署處理的方法是叫寶二回函給檢舉人那不就讓寶二知道是誰檢舉的嗎這個是目前廉政署處理的SOP嗎這個是不是屬於"},{"start":946.519,"end":971.747,"text":"接避者保護法裡面的檢舉齁這個我不清楚齁這要做一個個案齁那這一件所以你的意思是什麼這一件事不是我不清楚齁那沒有關係你不清楚我給你時間了解部長一個禮拜之內回覆好不好可以嗎這個這個是不是我們再請那個那個廉政署來是啊廉政署不是在法務部轄下嗎我有理解錯誤嗎"},{"start":973.331,"end":1000.809,"text":"所以我這個事情問法務部部長很過分嗎我給法務部一個禮拜的時間回去了解清楚廉政署可以這樣幹嗎這樣時間還不夠這樣時間還不夠充分嗎這個是不是一個月這麼簡單的事情要一個月喔這個還要公文王牌因為這已經到那個警政署沒關係啊看多少時間啊我讓昭偉裁示這麼簡單的事情要一個月好謝謝那我們盡快啊"},{"start":1007.593,"end":1010.882,"text":"請教部長可以加快速度嗎那我們就半個月兩個禮拜黃委員部長說兩週給你那再麻煩部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":468,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時10分）謝謝主席，有請法務部部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：部長早。今天召委針對聯合國4月時所出的調查報告排了這個專案，我看了法務部的報告，我必須要說，我看完聯合國的報告後，認為兩者之間有嚴重的斷裂感，為什麼我說兩者之間有嚴重的斷裂感？因為在聯合國的報告當中所呈現出來的一些關鍵問題，在法務部的報告當中，我都沒有看到一些適度的回應，所以我一開始問一個最基本的問題，法務部在準備今天的專案報告以前，有看過這份聯合國的報告嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有，這部分我有看過。"],["黃委員國昌：你有看過嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["黃委員國昌：部長看完這個報告以後，覺得這個報告有沒有問題？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分的確是有提到四個案例跟臺灣有關，我們有試圖去做了解，這裡面有四個案，第一個是……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，我們一個一個來好了，這樣子問題的層次會比較清楚。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["黃委員國昌：聯合國出這份報告的單位，應該是打擊毒品跟犯罪的辦公室嘛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我們國家跟這個辦公室有聯繫過嗎？有任何的互動交流嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們沒有……這個沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：從來沒有任何互動交流？有嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要由警政署說明，因為法務部……這要看警政署有沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：警政署有跟他們互動過嗎？沒有嘛，剛剛署長在下面說沒有。我們一個一個來啦！我老實說，身為一個臺灣人，我看完聯合國的這份報告以後，我心情很難過，臺灣怎麼會被聯合國的報告描述成這樣的地方，我為什麼說我心情很難過？我一個一個帶部長看，在這個聯合國的報告當中，對於臺灣它是怎麼標示的，請部長看右下角的地圖，這個報告你看過，你應該熟，它在Taiwan後面寫PoC，PoC是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有注意到PoC。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，你不是說你看過報告嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我看過最主要是因為我們有做一個重點的……"],["黃委員國昌：我們再往下看，你說你地圖沒看，沒有關係，來看一下內文右上角，BG1是一個它沒有點出名字的集團，你看右上角，它說那個集團是二十幾年前由臺灣PoC所設立的，部長看到這個PoC的時候，不會覺得很奇怪嗎？這個PoC指的是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：很抱歉，我是看翻譯的，我沒有看……"],["黃委員國昌：你是看翻譯的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["黃委員國昌：部裡面的同仁怎麼翻譯給你的？Taiwan PoC他怎麼翻的？部長，你跟我說你看過，你看翻譯本沒有關係，我好奇的是部裡面的同仁對於Taiwan PoC是怎麼翻給你看的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，我有看過整個要旨，這裡面就是說它這個跟臺灣有關，其實它講這四個案例，譬如它的負責人……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，對不起，我還是打斷一下，我們一個層次、一個層次的問題來看啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想我們不要再去談PoC，PoC對我們中華民國是一個不禮貌的稱呼啦！"],["黃委員國昌：所以部長顯然知道PoC是什麼嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員你何必在這邊問我？我想……"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪！我在這邊問你這個問題有很過分嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，你要問的不就是我們國家，臺灣最主要是這四個案例……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦，剛剛部長說我沒必要在這邊問你，但這個牽涉到臺灣的國格啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：聯合國這裡面的寫法，本來就對臺灣是不友善的、不友善的嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：是，非常好，你說得非常好嘛！所以部長明明就知道PoC是什麼，所以我才說臺灣跟這個辦公室是不是有任何的互動？當出現這樣子的國家報告，對臺灣不友善的時候，別人對我們不友善，我們自己要有立場嘛，其實我要講的就是這句話啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是標示……我們是中華民國嘛，對不對？"],["黃委員國昌：是啊，但它顯然就不是這樣標示嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想委員都清楚，這個不禮貌的、對臺灣很不友善的一個稱呼，所以我們就來研究這部分裡面有四個案例嘛，當然我們有看過這四個案例，委員應該也看過嘛，就是它的負責人或者是那些跟臺灣以前、二十幾年以前有關，我們很注意去看這裡面到底有沒有人名、有沒有公司的名稱、有沒有查證的方向，這個對我們來講是很有興趣去做了解啦！"],["黃委員國昌：所以到目前為止了解的狀況怎麼樣？我現在就一個問題一個問題來啦，第一個，我其實剛剛要跟部長講，聯合國這樣標示我們，任何臺灣人看了都會不高興嘛！其實我只是要make a point，我們的政府要有反應，如此而已。第二個部分，就剛剛部長說要去了解這個「Business Group 1」，他們所標示的BG1，指的是哪一個集團？現在法務部了解的狀況如何？有辦法鎖定是哪一個集團嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為它沒辦法去查證，它是有提到……"],["黃委員國昌：聯合國出的報告沒有辦法查證？那問題大了！"],["鄭部長銘謙：它是二十多年前在臺灣成立嘛！有些也移到中南亞或其他國家，我國只是早期的註冊之地而已嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：部長，請你看一下，我為什麼要把原文標出來？你看一下右下角的，右上角沒錯啊，它是二十幾年前在臺灣成立的，一個線上非常大的博弈集團，這個線上非常大的博弈集團從臺灣出發，然後擴展到東南亞各國，這個是右上角那段講的嘛！我有興趣的是右下角的那一段，那一段說這個集團到目前為止，包括在臺灣還設立了非常多紙上公司在從事非法的活動。今天我們看一個聯合國的報告，第一個，如果這個聯合國的報告寫得不實，那我們應該要有國家的態度嘛！第二個，如果這個聯合國的報告寫出了我們自己的檢調沒有掌握的部分，那我們就應該要去了解，這個才是實事求是的方法嘛！所以第三個，我要問的事情是，它說BG1這個集團目前在臺灣還設有很多紙上公司，這件事情法務部、我們的檢調或者是行政院打詐中心還是警政署，有進行任何了解嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個裡面有提到有些集團、上開集團，就是以臺灣為基地的三合會，這部分調查……"],["黃委員國昌：那個是下一頁啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：對啦，我要講……"],["黃委員國昌：請你針對一個一個問題回答嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以委員你講的這些都是沒有具體的一個……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你認為這個聯合國的報告沒有具體的內容嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有具體的一個人名、公司名嘛，當然我們……"],["黃委員國昌：所以無從追查嘛？聯合國的這份報告……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是請調查局密切在注意這一部分嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：品質顯然大有問題嘛！按照部長今天的態度基本上就是這個樣子，是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會請調查局持續或請……"],["黃委員國昌：今天調查局有來嗎？來，請調查局。"],["陳局長白立：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長看起來不是很熟，局長應該比較熟，它右下角所講的，在臺灣還有一些紙上公司，調查局有去了解嗎？"],["陳局長白立：我們現在正在試圖要去了解當中。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["陳局長白立：我不敢給委員一個很明確的答案……"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了……"],["陳局長白立：但是我們會認真的去了解。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！你可以繼續講形容詞，這個我都尊重啦！我只想跟法務部、調查局講一個共通的概念，任何看完這份聯合國調查報告的人，都會覺得你們今天所提出來的書面報告沒有回應到它裡面所指出來的問題。第一個，任何看完這份報告的人，都會覺得你們今天所提出來的報告沒有回應到它的問題。當然，我這樣的評價對還是不對，所有的人、大家有眼睛都可以去閱讀，都可以去思考，看完以後如果我講得不對，那我自然而然會受到社會輿論的指責說黃國昌胡說八道，我們法務部的報告、我們調查局的報告，對聯合國的這份報告其實做了非常充分的回應，有人或許會有這樣的想法，我不知道。但我負責任的講，我看完這份報告了以後，我必須要說，不管是法務部的報告還是調查局今天提出來的報告，其實都沒有在回應，講「不及格」三個字或許太沉重了。","第二個問題，BG1上面提到跟臺灣黑道目前的合作關係，這個合作關係調查局有去了解嗎？"],["陳局長白立：我們現在……這個報告對我們來說其實都很新，我們之前確實是沒有去注意到這份報告。"],["黃委員國昌：這個報告什麼時候出版的？"],["陳局長白立：4月的時候。"],["黃委員國昌：4月嘛！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["黃委員國昌：所以召委其實也蠻有眼光的，挑了一份你們之前沒有注意到的報告要提醒你們注意，我覺得召委也是善意啦！"],["陳局長白立：這份報告是在上次委員會的時候，好像是王鴻薇委員第一次提出來……"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["陳局長白立：我們才注意到有這份報告，我們必須要很誠實地說。我們也馬上去找到這份報告來看，報告的內容其實聯合國也有一個很明確的說法，說這個是它的員工還有……就是聯合國也沒有經過證實這整個報告的內容啦！但是我們還是很重視……"],["黃委員國昌：哈？哇！等一下、等一下。局長，我建議你啦，你的意思是說聯合國出了這個報告，但它沒有確認這個報告的內容，這個事情很大條喔！"],["陳局長白立：是在它的報告裡面寫的，我們都看過了、我們都看過了，但是我們對它報告內容所指跟我們臺灣有關的部分，我們仍然相當相當地重視。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，沒關係啦！之前沒有注意到嘛！因為委員的質詢讓你們注意到嘛！"],["陳局長白立：我們很謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：現在開始要去追蹤，我們拭目以待啦！"],["陳局長白立：謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：給你們一點時間，讓你們有時間去注意到，因為包括了裡面這個Red Dragon到底指的是哪一個幫派？以及在聯合國的報告下面，我必須要說，對臺灣的國際形象傷害蠻大的，如果裡面的報告有不實的部分，希望法務部跟調查局發一個正式的聲明嚴正駁斥；如果報告裡面有你們該知道卻不知道的事情，有這個情事就該進一步繼續往下追。因為針對有關來臺灣設立不管是詐騙集團、洗錢的網絡，利用金融科技當作名義成立的公司，事實上在報告裡面，甚至連公司的名字，你真的要去找其實是找得出來的，其實是找得出來的，在臺灣設立了好幾年，到去年10月的時候才突然宣布停業。但是沒有關係，法務部也好，調查局也好，說上個月、之前沒有注意到，但最近注意到這個報告後願意去蒐集，這是好事。","最後的時間，我只想請問一下法務部，我們吹哨者保護法如期上路準備好了沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分廉政署在準備子法的訂定。"],["黃委員國昌：吹哨者保護法是為了保護吹哨人嗎？如果今天吹哨者向廉政署檢舉的話，廉政署應該揭露吹哨者的身分嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：吹哨者身分是要保密的啊！"],["黃委員國昌：這個吹哨者身分是要保護的嘛！好，請部長看一下，民眾向廉政署檢舉警政署有人浮報加班費，剛剛部長回答了我第一個問題，廉政署不應該洩漏檢舉人的身分給原單位，這個基本的原則沒有問題嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果檢舉原單位當然是不應該、不適合去……是要個案的處理。"],["黃委員國昌：不是不適合，根本就不應該嘛！剛剛你回答的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：他那個是揭弊者保護法……"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛你回答的答案就很標準嘛！請部長回去了解。廉政署處理的方式是直接叫內政部警政署保安警察第二總隊第一大隊直接回函給檢舉人，直接告訴警政署保安警察隊到底是誰檢舉的，這是現在廉政署處理事情的SOP嗎？公文的字號114年3月19日保二(一)督字第1140001942號函，廉政署轉給保二，直接請保二回函給檢舉人。我現在就看不懂啦！因為有人跟我投訴，民眾跟廉政署檢舉，結果廉政署處理的方法是叫保二回函給檢舉人，那不就讓保二知道是誰檢舉的嗎？這是目前廉政署處理的SOP嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是不是屬於揭弊者保護法裡面的檢舉，我不清楚，這要做一個個案，這一件……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的意思是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這一件我不清楚，是不是……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你不清楚，我給你時間了解。部長，一個禮拜之內回復好不好？可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是不是我們再請廉政署來……"],["黃委員國昌：是啊！廉政署不是在法務部轄下嗎？我有理解錯誤嗎？所以我這件事情問法務部部長很過分嗎？我給法務部一個禮拜的時間回去了解清楚，廉政署可以這樣幹嗎？這樣時間還不夠充分嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是不是可以一個月？"],["黃委員國昌：這麼簡單的事情要一個月？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這還要公文往返，因為這已經到警政署。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啦！看多少時間，我讓召委裁示，這麼簡單的事情要一個月？好，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們儘快。"],["主席：請教部長可以加快速度嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們就半個月、兩個禮拜好嗎？"],["主席：兩週？黃委員，部長說兩週給你。好，再麻煩部長，謝謝部長。","現在補充宣告：上午10時30分截止發言登記。","我們接著請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":512,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","吳思瑤","麥玉珍","李坤城","林月琴","黃珊珊","陳培瑜","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","林倩綺","沈發惠","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":423,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心指揮官、內政\n部警政署署長、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就\n「臺灣遭聯合國警示為東亞、東南亞跨國詐欺集團據點之檢討與防範，及打詐四法與相關子法施\n行後之具體成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00008"}}},{"id":"160977","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160977","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0a74d2e02c378e06a6faf33ebc301a426a086056f51b23ebc49de4876f6fadf4d4739e4e9503208b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"09:16:42 - 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董事長"},{"start":25.14,"end":48.107,"text":"委員好部長好進入質詢前我想首先還是要跟大家說明一下為什麼本週的議程直到禮拜一才終於正式決定那這其實就跟黨團簽預算解斷不附議同意書的進度有關那本來預期上週五就能確定各黨的同意可以同意"},{"start":48.687,"end":73.677,"text":"解凍案的那個不復翼那畢竟早日審查這個解凍案其實是大家的共識那民進黨當然沒有反對的理由那同時也是國民黨在本會期每次質詢都強烈要求你們要趕快送出這個解凍案的那可是在國民黨上個禮拜五下班後才簽出不復翼的同意書那"},{"start":77.297,"end":100.726,"text":"這個禮拜一又把不附議書抽回那直到昨天教委會才正式收到公文說他們同意不附議的同意書所以確定這個今天可以來解凍文化部的預算其實是考量到諸多的不確定性那所以本席才會用這個黃牛的專報來當預備的議程我想透過這個機會跟大家說明一下"},{"start":105.247,"end":122.064,"text":"文化部我們的預算解凍案49案那其中有29案就是要求提出書面報告20案是要提出專案報告那剛剛我們書面報告已經處理完畢那我們等一下來處理所謂的專案報告的部分"},{"start":122.745,"end":142.963,"text":"那我想total剛剛部長也有報告我們這次的解凍案的總金額是34億其中有5億2400多萬是在委員會凍結的那其他的28億8千多萬是在院會被凍結的所以其實想到這個就覺得說其實我們"},{"start":144.707,"end":170.364,"text":"今年度教育委員會在審查預算的時候其實我們是零案保留也就是說我們沒有一個任何的預算案是要進到協商程序那這是我們不分黨派所有教育委員會的最大的共識而且花了一整個會期努力的討論努力的這個大家研究之下的結果可是換句話說在院會被凍結將近29億的預算等於是"},{"start":175.387,"end":200.078,"text":"這個被本委員會同意的那所以這個其實我們是覺得很當然對這個過程覺得很不滿那當然今天我們還是要呼籲一下我們一定要無條件攜手來支持這個解凍案全數可以解凍那第二點我是希望大家能考量是說文化部除了預算被凍結了34億另外我們還被刪掉11億那"},{"start":202.319,"end":227.079,"text":"不只文化部的宣傳費被刪掉作為第四權的公共電視喔台灣Plus也被刪了2.4億那中央社也被刪了1600萬喔所以連最基本的文化部的事務費、旅費、水電費這些行政的必要資源也都被刪了5.9億所以今天處理的解凍案其實就算是委員會"},{"start":228.16,"end":257.31,"text":"解凍的部分我們也希望說大家能夠評估綜合評估我國這個文化預算的整體損失然後做最大程度的給予解凍因為其實也是解一時的燃眉之急而已好 那我想針對剛剛部長其實當然也有提到說在報告有提到說今天面對這樣的解凍的那個態度是不是你再請你說明一下跟所有委員做一些呼籲關於今天的解凍案"},{"start":260.475,"end":284.22,"text":"謝謝委員其實我剛一直強調本來我們在我們的委員會裡只被三兩千萬然後動五億左右我本來以為這樣子一個是蠻合理的後來得到這樣一個結果那其實這個結果對我們來講影響太大譬如說我們每一個管所他的錢都用在一些像業務費這種都是一個水電清潔保全景觀等等還有"},{"start":285.02,"end":309.603,"text":"我們很多的錢如果在不解凍的情況下在8月之後就完全沒有辦法營運了還有一些是跟國際簽約這些合約我們也沒辦法付款其實我講一個蠻實際的就是當我們被刪以後被凍以後其實我們有些活動已經透過企業募款才能夠出去因為"},{"start":310.911,"end":334.996,"text":"所有的活動都從去年就開始簽約所以我們不可能等到錢下來所以我們開始跟企業募款包括在台中那個那一場那個跟龐貝都的一個展覽我們也是透過企業募款所以講到這裡我就覺得說我們大家都很努力所以請求大家一定要把這個這個錢要給我們不然我們八月份以後真的是會停擺"},{"start":336.383,"end":363.462,"text":"當然啦剛剛部長有提到其實我們所有的這個所謂的文化部轄下的藝文管社也都被無差別凍結了30%那當然今天因為時間的關係我沒有辦法一一請這個藝文管社這些館長或主任上台那可是我想還是要請部長代表說明如果這30%的業務費沒有順利解凍的話那這些管社的影響部長"},{"start":365.765,"end":383.005,"text":"其實每一個管事他都有一定的功能譬如說有一些是保存一些很重要的史料他需要的經費還有就是他每一檔每一檔的活動都排下去如果你這個錢不給的話我們那個檔可能要縮減然後對民眾來講他會覺得我們一直在變動其實說穿了"},{"start":387.591,"end":402.096,"text":"文化部的預算非常的緊他每一筆錢都用在剛剛好所以而且全世界的國家都會把錢用在文化部所以為什麼我們這次文化部被砍這些錢或者凍這些錢整個文化界會覺得非常"},{"start":402.987,"end":419.247,"text":"那個驚訝就是因為這個錢尤其是這些管所都分布在每一個縣市直接跟每一個地方上每一個人的禁用是切身關係的所以我剛才解釋了每一個管的要付的錢"},{"start":420.589,"end":429.475,"text":"你聽起來好像說保全 清潔什麼要那麼少錢包括薪水 很多都是我們的外部人員基本的那個維勻費用啊對 這個都發不出來那我這樣講其實是真的所以希望大家給我們趕快過好 那我們再來先請教一下公共電視胡董事長"},{"start":438.061,"end":464.928,"text":"就公共電視跟Town Plus的預算遭刪除跟凍結的數目相加總共有10億多想要請董事長說明就少了這些預算在目前為止在目前為止就你在媒體經營上遇到什麼樣的困難跟挑戰還有就是另外就你服務與這個媒體跟學業的學界的專業也請你說明一下就什麼叫做政治與媒體互動的必據原則"},{"start":468.157,"end":487.942,"text":"謝謝委員的關心這一次我們在凍結的部分台灣Plus大概有四億三千多萬那麼在公視小公視還有台語台的部分大概凍結了有六億三千多萬那這些比例呢事實上對我們影響是很大的"},{"start":488.402,"end":506.35,"text":"那以舉例來講我們幾乎所有要新開發的項目因為這樣的凍結我們都很多都已經把它暫停或者取消那對立場的業務來講其實它會構成很大的一個影響就是說我們很多的作業您知道影視的產品它是分年期在進行"},{"start":507.19,"end":529.231,"text":"所以我們對於在未來要如何進行下一期的作為我們都非常謹慎所以這一塊我們要小心那有關於這個必據原則的部分謝謝委員的關心那當然在一般運用到媒體領域最簡單的說法就是因為媒體跟政治力的關係非常密切但是因為這樣的密切所以它需要"},{"start":529.952,"end":551.065,"text":"政府對於媒體有一定的尊重跟這個保障他的自由所以在這個角度上來講就好像類似我們的幣手幣看起來就幣巨之搖但事實上他一定要有這樣的一個距離來保持政治跟媒體之間敏感的那種微妙關係對公共電視來講尤其如此因為任何一個作業的"},{"start":552.066,"end":577.506,"text":"副作用它是很微妙的所以這種政治上的BG原則對我們來講也是全球民主國家的公共媒體都在重視的一個基本原則跟慧恩報告一下好 謝謝董事長的說明所以就是說其實這個不能用政治去干涉剛剛部長在報告的時候也有說就不能用政治去干涉我們這個G要怎麼樣做這個G不能這樣做 對不對"},{"start":580.049,"end":591.562,"text":"這個某個程度就是說我們媒體跟戲劇這個的角色是這樣就是說政治跟媒體其實這個距離其實就是一個手臂的距離可是這個手臂的距離雖然不長可是它確實是有一定的距離對不對"},{"start":597.248,"end":612.53,"text":"其實自從黨政軍退出媒體之後我個人在這些年當評審從來沒有人干預過要選哪一部或者怎樣新聞要怎麼報這點外界一直誤會我們這點做得非常好"},{"start":613.351,"end":641.802,"text":"就至少我個人的經驗從來沒有干預過任何一個戲任何一則新聞我實際上在最後才看到哪些戲要拍通過了我們的補助等等這點是我在這裡保證我們其實這方面從戒嚴以後解除戒嚴以後走到今天算是一個自由民主的國家所有的媒體都謹守分寸文化部也絕對謹守分寸不會去干預到跟政治意識形態等等都不會干預"},{"start":642.762,"end":659.281,"text":"所以因為這樣被成為凍結的理由其實我們會覺得其實是非常的不合理啦好 另外30秒的時間不好意思就是說跟部長討論的是說在台南喔這個國家美術館籌備處揭牌的那天我們包括陳承波啊"},{"start":660.683,"end":683.155,"text":"郭雪狐在內很多台灣的前輩藝術家的後代都有共同簽署這些前輩藝術家的作品的捐贈的這個典藏的意象那其實這是台南人的榮幸也是台灣人的幸福喔那可是我們現在遇到一個很嚴重的問題是說就典藏空間不足那新成立的這個台南國家美術館的庫房其實非常的不足"},{"start":683.675,"end":708.567,"text":"所以我們為了解決這個問題文化部有決定要在台南首府大學的這個退場的這個校地要興建一個聯航聯合的典藏中心那也編了一筆預算總共一億多那可是要做清洗的規劃可是這個一億多現在被全部刪掉那請問部長因為面對這些珍貴的藝術品那這個經費又被刪掉那你打算要怎麼因應的怎麼解決這點其實我們很著急因為"},{"start":712.81,"end":730.569,"text":"很多很多前輩藝術家都在這幾年宣布他們願意把他的後代願意把他的父母親啊或者祖父母的精彩作品捐給我們我們必須有責任保存所以我們其實如果還沒有南北館之前我們就不太夠"},{"start":731.71,"end":752.544,"text":"然後每蓋一個這個管設要非常長的時間規劃到設計到蓋那這點真的是我們心裡很著急只能去盤點現在現有的空間看能不能夠保存或者甚至於有一些還是保存在家屬那一邊他們用他們的庫房再保存我們付錢這樣子"},{"start":754.525,"end":761.95,"text":"好 那就期待明年再續編把這個先行規劃再把它做好是好 謝謝部長 謝謝董事長 謝謝謝謝主席好 我們再來請郭育晴委員謝謝主席 有請部長好 有請李部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":115,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（9時16分）謝謝主席，有請李遠部長及公共電視胡元輝董事長。"],["主席：請部長、董事長。"],["李部長遠：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長好。進入質詢前，我首先還是要跟大家說明一下，為什麼本週的議程直到禮拜一才終於正式決定？這其實跟黨團簽預算解凍案不復議同意書的進度有關，本來預期上週五就能確定各黨可以同意解凍案的不復議，畢竟早日審查解凍案是大家的共識，民進黨當然沒有反對的理由，同時也是國民黨在本會期每次質詢都強烈要求你們要趕快送出解凍案。可是國民黨在上個禮拜五下班後才簽出不復議的同意書，這個禮拜一又把不復議書抽回，直到昨天教文委員會才正式收到公文是他們不復議的同意書，所以確定今天可以來解凍文化部的預算，其實是考量到諸多的不確定性，因此本席才會用黃牛的專報來當預備的議程，我想透過這個機會跟大家說明一下。","文化部的預算解凍案有49案，其中有29案是要求提出書面報告，20案是要提出專案報告，剛剛書面報告已經處理完畢，我們等一下來處理所謂的專案報告部分。我想total剛剛部長也有報告，這次解凍案的總金額是34億，其中有五億兩千四百多萬是在委員會凍結的，其他的二十八億八千多萬是在院會被凍結的，其實想到這個就覺得，今年度教文委員會在審查預算的時候，我們是零案保留，也就是說，沒有任何的預算案是要進到協商程序，這是不分黨派、教文委員會的最大共識，而且花了一整個會期努力的討論，是大家努力研究之下的結果。換句話說，在院會被凍結將近29億的預算，等於是非本委員會同意的，所以其實我們對這個過程覺得很不滿。當然，今天我們還是要呼籲一下，我們一定要無條件攜手來支持這個解凍案全數可以解凍。","第二點，我是希望大家能考量，文化部除了預算被凍結了34億，另外我們還被刪掉11億，不只文化部的宣傳費被刪掉，作為第四權的公共電視及TaiwanPlus被刪了2.4億、中央社也被刪了1,600萬，連最基本的文化部的事務費、旅費、水電費，這些行政的必要資源也都被刪了5.9億。所以今天處理的解凍案，其實就算是委員會解凍的部分，我們也希望大家能夠綜合評估我國文化預算的整體損失，以最大程度地給予解凍，因為也是解一時的燃眉之急而已。","剛剛部長在報告提到，今天面對這樣解凍的態度，是不是再請你說明一下，跟所有的委員做一些呼籲？關於今天的解凍案。"],["李部長遠：好，謝謝委員。我剛剛一直強調，本來我們在委員會裡只被刪2,000萬，然後凍5億左右，我以為這樣子是蠻合理的，後來得到這樣的一個結果。其實這個結果對我們來講影響太大，譬如我們每一個館所的錢都用在像業務費這種是水電、清潔、保全、景觀等等，還有我們很多錢如果在不解凍的情況下，在8月之後就完全沒有辦法營運了。還有一些是跟國際簽約，這些合約我們也沒辦法付款。我講一個蠻實際的就是，當我們被刪以後、被凍以後，其實我們有些活動已經透過企業募款……"],["林委員宜瑾：是。"],["李部長遠：才能夠出去，因為所有的活動都從去年就開始簽約。"],["林委員宜瑾：對。"],["李部長遠：我們不可能等到錢下來，所以開始跟企業募款，包括在臺中那一場跟龐畢度的展覽，我們也是透過企業募款。講到這裡我就覺得，我們大家都很努力，所以請求大家一定要把這個錢給我們，不然我們8月份以後真的是會停擺。"],["林委員宜瑾：當然，剛剛部長提到，所有文化部轄下的藝文館舍也都被無差別凍結了30%，今天因為時間的關係，我沒有辦法一一請這些藝文館舍的館長或主任上臺，可是我還是要請部長代表說明，如果這30%的業務費沒有順利解凍的話，對這些館社的影響。"],["李部長遠：每一個館舍都有一定的功能，譬如有的是保存一些很重要的史料所需要的經費，還有就是它每一檔、每一檔的活動都排下去，如果你這個錢不給的話，我們那個檔可能要縮減，對民眾來講會覺得我們一直在變動。其實說穿了，文化部的預算非常地緊。"],["林委員宜瑾：對。"],["李部長遠：每一筆錢都用到剛剛好，而且全世界國家都會把錢用在文化部，所以為什麼這次文化部被砍或者凍這些錢，整個文化界會覺得非常驚訝，就是因為這筆錢，尤其是這些館所分布在每一個縣市，直接跟地方上每一個人的近用有切身關係。所以我剛剛解釋了，每一個館要付的錢，聽起來好像說保全、清潔什麼的要那麼少的錢，包括薪水，很多都是我們的外僱人員……"],["林委員宜瑾：那都是基本的維運費用。"],["李部長遠：對，這個都發不出來。我這樣講其實是真的，所以希望大家趕快讓我們過。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，那我們再來先請教一下公共電視胡董事長，公共電視跟TaiwanPlus的預算遭刪除及凍結的數目相加總共有十億多，想請董事長說明，少了這些預算，到目前為止，你在媒體經營上遇到什麼樣的困難跟挑戰？另外，就你服務於媒體跟學界的專業，也請你說明一下什麼叫做政治與媒體互動的臂距原則？"],["胡董事長元輝：謝謝委員的關心。這一次我們在凍結的部分，TaiwanPlus大概有四億三千多萬，在公視、小公視還有台語台的部分大概凍結了六億兩千多萬。這些比例事實上對我們的影響是很大的，舉例來講，我們幾乎所有要新開發的項目，因為這樣的凍結，很多都已經把它暫停或者取消。對於例常業務來講，其實它會構成很大的一個影響，就是我們很多的作業，您知道影視產品是分年期進行，對於在未來要如何進行下一期的作業我們都非常謹慎，所以這一塊我們也要小心。","那有關於臂距原則的部分，謝謝委員的關心，當然一般運用到媒體領域最簡單的說法就是，因為媒體跟政治力的關係非常密切，但是因為這樣地密切，所以需要政府對於媒體有一定的尊重跟保障它的自由。所以在這個角度上來講，就類似我們的手臂，看起來只有臂距之遙，但事實上一定要有這樣的一個距離，保持政治跟媒體之間敏感的那種微妙關係。對公共電視來講尤其如此，因為任何一個作業的副作用是很微妙的，所以這種政治上的臂距原則對我們來講，也是全球民主國家的公共媒體都在重視的一個基本原則，跟委員報告。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝董事長的說明，所以就是不能用政治去干涉。剛剛部長在報告時也說，不能用政治去干涉這個劇要怎麼樣做、那個劇不能這樣做，某個程度上，媒體跟戲劇的角色是這樣，政治跟媒體的距離其實就是一個手臂的距離，這個手臂的距離雖然不長，可是確實有一定的距離，對不對？"],["李部長遠：其實自從黨政軍退出媒體之後，我個人在這些年當評審，從來沒有人干預過要選哪一部或者新聞要怎麼報，這點外界一直誤會，我們這點做得非常好。至少就我個人的經驗，從來沒有干預過任何一部戲、任何一則新聞，我時常在最後才看到哪些戲要拍、通過了補助等等。這點我在這裡保證，其實這方面從解除戒嚴以後走到今天算是一個自由民主的國家，所有媒體都謹守分寸，文化部也絕對謹守分寸，跟政治意識型態等等都不會干預。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以因為這樣成為凍結的理由，我們會覺得其實是非常不合理。","另外30秒時間，不好意思。跟部長討論在臺南國家美術館籌備處揭牌那天，包括陳澄波、郭雪湖在內，很多臺灣前輩藝術家的後代都共同簽署這些前輩藝術家作品捐贈典藏的意向，這是臺南人的榮幸，也是臺灣人的幸福。可是我們現在遇到一個很嚴重的問題，典藏空間不足，新成立的臺南國家美術館的庫房非常不足，所以為了解決這個問題，文化部也決定要在臺南的首府大學退場校地興建一個聯合典藏中心，也編了一筆預算，總共一億多，可是要做遷徙的規劃，這一億多現在被全部刪掉。請問部長，面對這些珍貴的藝術品，這個經費又被刪掉，那你打算要怎麼因應、怎麼解決？"],["李部長遠：這點其實我們很著急，因為很多前輩藝術家這幾年都有宣布，就是後代願意把他父母親或者祖父母的精彩作品捐給我們，我們有責任保存。還沒有南美館之前我們就不太夠，每蓋一個館舍需要非常長的時間規劃、設計到蓋，這點真的是我們心裡很著急，只能盤點現有的空間看還能不能夠保存。甚至於有一些還是保存在家屬那邊，他們用他們的庫房在保存，我們付錢。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，那就期待明年再續編，把先期規劃做好。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝部長。"],["李部長遠：謝謝。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝董事長，謝謝主席。"],["主席（林委員宜瑾）：再來請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-10","speakers":["林宜瑾","郭昱晴","劉書彬","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","柯志恩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳秀寳","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","葉元之","范雲","蘇巧慧","黃捷","陳培瑜","邱志偉"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2025-05-07"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關文化部主管預算解凍案49案","agenda_id":"1144601_00005"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}