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每個都有發文來但是你需要我引一份給你嗎好 那我們引一份給民進黨團因為已經排了10個案所以說昨天民進黨在下班之前所送過來的案已經非常多我們完全討論不完我們想下一次再來排柯文昭有沒有意見"},{"start":2282.552,"end":2304.004,"text":"我們在剛才你一開始說昨天晚上發文,我說沒有,我們是下班以前發文,你現在又改口了院長,大家都是台行人,說話不要這樣,變成倒式的你要很客觀、忠義來主持每一個A會,所以你講話要很精準我是非常尊敬你的,好不好你當然啦"},{"start":2306.205,"end":2333.6,"text":"我解釋給同事解釋比較好為什麼可以你做上面我們做下面當然受寵弱菌吧是受菌弱寵不是受寵弱菌謝謝柯總召你議事都到了我跟您報告了我還沒講完下次我們一定會排沒有我反對這是從中進去因為今天不可能四個案都走得完先把方面再講我們排第十一個案也無所謂"},{"start":2335.465,"end":2361.092,"text":"如果同意的話,民進黨團在下班之前第3個案,今天就有10個案額外再加沒有意見,我們就往後加當然不是他們同意,要求誰還要誰同意我沒有開會通知那昨天有發通知啊可以加,你再加在我們後面嘛不然我們在黑夜叫啦"},{"start":2362.068,"end":2378.735,"text":"希望現在正是日益在...你以為要亂說話日益不好啦 大家說話叫天龍才好來 總理事長我們現場黨團同意我們就加嘛大家黨團也沒有寶貴的意見這還有什麼寶貴的意見我請問過去你現在...開會通知上沒有...你有來職業審查我拜託請周恩來民事長你解釋清楚好不好"},{"start":2385.984,"end":2398.33,"text":"主席我們也不知道是哪三條主席我們也不知道是哪三條主席我們也不知道是哪三條主席我們也不知道是哪三條主席我們也不知道是哪三條主席我們也不知道是哪三條主席我們也不知道是哪三條主席我們也不知道是哪三條"},{"start":2413.377,"end":2424.133,"text":"教育長請你講一下我覺得在這邊開會喔還是基本上面的規矩文明的秩序要顧到你看過嗎?記得"},{"start":2426.314,"end":2443.03,"text":"那個是不是可以請柯建民總召把他麥克風切掉我問他這一個不行嗎?我現在在發言他不斷的在插嘴為什麼不斷的在插嘴?是不是可以請主席制止你可以講我聽你講但是你不要老是在講都講這一套嘛"},{"start":2443.59,"end":2457.107,"text":"你先把麥克風壓掉要不然是我的事情後面再徵求發言就好了麥克風我不講話可以啊你把麥克風切掉嘛難道你的麥克風可以做成這種質嗎我把它壓下來好不好你可以管他這個事情啦"},{"start":2459.813,"end":2479.198,"text":"黃忠祐如何?黃忠祐如何?好久沒有超越協商了,難得這一次你把麥克風切掉,尊重一下副總裁,好不好?你這樣講我可以接受好,謝謝柯總召,黃總召請發言,對不起那個謝謝主席,還是維持基本上面的規則"},{"start":2481.503,"end":2509.353,"text":"第一個事情是說有黨團希望增加今天協商的事項因為我們今天所收到的開會通知只有開會通知上面所定的十項所以黨團如果希望增加三項的話在徵詢其他黨團的意見之前是不是可以把他們希望增加的請求的通知因為最起碼是其他黨團基本的尊重"},{"start":2510.413,"end":2532.25,"text":"今天開會要討論協商的事項那到底要增加什麼希望我們表達意見以前是不是也讓我們應該最起碼能夠知道這個是蠻基本的啦那第二個事情是說剛剛柯建民總召一直對院長有所指教說你講話要精準"},{"start":2533.55,"end":2554.401,"text":"可是我聽柯建銘總召在講話的時候老實講我就聽不太懂因為他剛剛一直在援引立法院職權刑事法第58條的規定請問立法院職權刑事法第58條的規定跟我們現在在討論的事項到底有什麼關係我完全聽不懂以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":2556.239,"end":2556.899,"text":"謝謝主席喔當然"},{"start":2582.829,"end":2600.001,"text":"剛剛我尊重主席的才是啦就如同我們是經過要求才能夠看到現在也還沒發下來您所說的國民黨團或民眾黨團事前針對今天的議案有事先發函給您所以您今天列的議案是依據"},{"start":2602.475,"end":2613.921,"text":"兩個黨團所提供的第一個我們也沒有看到啊所以說任何一個黨團大家應當是公平的議長在主持排案也應當是公正的不應當選擇性也不應當有優先順序"},{"start":2617.003,"end":2642.241,"text":"那當然我們昨天下班前送出來的是在您的開費通知之後所以說要我們基本上是認為今天我們原本期待說反正已經十案了嘛那十一十二十三列在後面我們就照順序排嘛這個是沒有問題只是今天來到現場並沒有列案但我們要求的是一個公平跟合理如果剛剛的主席的才是說只要民進黨團發函要求列的議案"},{"start":2645.283,"end":2668.032,"text":"要各黨黨團同意的話才能夠列案的話那我想請問現在已經列了十個案事情有徵詢民進黨團同意列案順序是這樣排嗎並沒有啊所以說這是一個合理公平的事情所以我們是希望大家不傷和氣民進黨團所發函的那排到後面至少你排上來"},{"start":2668.832,"end":2693.34,"text":"希望大家就同意這件事情否則我真的要大大argue為什麼我們排案的議程要被看過要經過國民黨民眾黨同意才能夠放上議程然後他們提的案子我們事前完全不知道順序為什麼這樣排這就是一種不平等的待遇這就是一種不公正不中立這就是一種 抱歉"},{"start":2695.641,"end":2720.624,"text":"對他們比較好啊 對我們永遠是這樣為難啊所以是希望說 我尊重主席的才智 印發資訊 大家都資訊 平等公平平等的公開透明 那事前國民黨民眾黨團發函我們也沒有看到 也沒有讓我們資訊分享所以請主席在主持上 我再次希望好久沒有的草野協商一定要做到議事的公正跟公平 謝謝"},{"start":2721.545,"end":2746.107,"text":"那吳世堯幹事長我特別報告一下,你講的都非常有道理可是我們絕對沒有大小言,我絕對沒有大小言那今天這個牌是因為什麼要遵循國民黨跟台灣民眾黨團是因為他們已經先接到了開會通知然後在昨天下班之前,民進黨才把你們要求寫上的議案才送來所以現場我一定要遵循他們兩個黨團的意見你講的都非常有道理,可是這是有個時間差"},{"start":2747.708,"end":2773.022,"text":"如果你是在前天或大前天送來的話,我們當然一定要排進去嘛那他們接到開會通知就完全不一樣,就會有13個案子那我想特別要跟吳士堯幹事長來補充報告一下,好請柯總召請院長,今天我想你來當院長已經一年多了,超過一年了你所主持的院會來自於超越協商,其實從來不照意識規則來我很不客氣的講"},{"start":2777.587,"end":2782.951,"text":"這麼一年多來民進黨所提的要求草席人他從來不立案"},{"start":2783.959,"end":2807.372,"text":"我等到今天還很慎重的跟你們再抗議一次我們昨天下班以前我們是送完的我很清楚因為我昨天我叫我們黨團送完的並不會不可能在下班以後但是即便下班以後還是一樣因為今天的朝陽是今天下午三點"},{"start":2808.493,"end":2834.051,"text":"所以有各黨團發函要求曹學章我在立法院這麼久30年來從來沒有院長說不排的如獨碰到韓院長這麼多一年多來我們一直很可惜的就是說你一直忘記立法院的組織法寫很清楚第三條是寫很清楚的院長要義士忠義的"},{"start":2835.219,"end":2846.5,"text":"但是因為你從來不意思中立,不管是在朝廷,乃至於整個議會的表決上面,你都不理民主黨的意見,你就聽旁邊那兩個。"},{"start":2848.379,"end":2874.858,"text":"周恩來以及這個藝術處長高百強的意見悶得頭很幹而且呢發明了一種前所未有的連建議時期講JSF可以用的所謂的點名表決這在在顯示整個立法院事實上立法院可以廢掉了因為完全不知道藝術規則來而且可以晚上七點半晚上七點半跑來開會"},{"start":2879.172,"end":2904.586,"text":"開會時間大概晚上六點,你可以七點半考慮開會以後就乾脆要晚上七點半開會,你叫國民黨、中央黨部去開會就好啦院長,這些都是事實,全國老百姓都看在眼裡面你這樣的一種作為,乃至於國民黨和民眾黨完全質疑的範圍以為他們國會多數都可以亂幹通,應該要大罷免"},{"start":2908.257,"end":2935.277,"text":"你的大發明因為這樣你提供提供老百姓的憤怒讓老百姓非常憤怒提供大發明的養分今天所有會我們今天可以看到今天5月8號包括我們這邊的王維以及這三個山長全部被提了就成案了所以院長這個是是個禁忌啊我要跟你說你最近就"},{"start":2936.88,"end":2965.68,"text":"你今天當選上院長的時候我們兩個人在一場後面的院長室我就跟你講過我還...我還院長你剛選上我們都同期進來立法院的大家要看你笑話但是你應該做給人家看你說你會的可是你從那一刻開始都沒有這樣做啊就沒有心要把整個立法院院長幹好啊"},{"start":2966.624,"end":2989.152,"text":"因為院長很清楚,立法院組織法第3條很清楚院長就是意識中立以及退出政黨不能有黨職,你是沒有黨職沒有錯但是你從來沒有做到要意識中立搞成這麼一年多來整個立法院是給國民看笑話"},{"start":2990.424,"end":3006.072,"text":"那人民的憤怒已經達到一個極限點所以當我一直講大發明的時候大成功我感覺很端端的這是為什麼會這樣呢其實就是你們自己惹禍來的"},{"start":3007.373,"end":3025.749,"text":"所以到現在已經各黨都提了,我相信只剩下三四個沒有被提而已在這種情況底下,大家是不是好好來思考一下整個立法院何起何從,這比較重要"},{"start":3027.083,"end":3039.392,"text":"當然我講的這個都和現在有關係那所以剛才黃莊委員講說我們提出來你要請求各黨同意吳少偉也講很清楚啊"},{"start":3040.936,"end":3058.554,"text":"我一開始就問你,到底國民黨什麼時候提案你國民黨什麼時候提案,也讓我們知道一下吧它還是你自己主動列的案子,那怎麼弄清楚我們提案本來就是要列入即便我現在當場提,也可以列入臨時動議來處理"},{"start":3060.556,"end":3087.276,"text":"這意識規則何其清楚啊這麼多年來我想副總召以及黃總召過去也當過立委也了解整個立法院的意思運作啊當場提也可以黃總召也曾經第一天來就當場提了當場提案所以我今天要講的就是說意識規則是適用在首爾開會民間團也罷政治團也罷"},{"start":3089.818,"end":3117.163,"text":"立委也把在明天團體開會員大會,乃至禮監事會,也是要有一個議事會的存在所以議事會的講究是什麼?就是公平、平等、公開、透明的因則所以我希望就是說,法院長我剛才講說立委執行審查是六十八條不是八條,六十八條是你最有力量的時候因為整個國會無法在一九九九年的時候修構"},{"start":3118.943,"end":3132.058,"text":"院長我們進來的時候,1993年進來的時候,到1999年國會不法以前,立法院的所有開會和民進團體開會都是一樣,用民進出入,用一般的議事規則來處理。"},{"start":3133.86,"end":3162.422,"text":"但是呢,造成了整個立法院癱瘓所以才有劉孫當院長的時候很積極處理國會無法立法院組織法、各人組織法以及這些刑事法、刑事規則還是立法院行為法,這是所謂國會無法才有的法治局、國會圖書館、一尊中心這樣的成立,當這樣成立的時候是要人好好去弄"},{"start":3163.53,"end":3188.338,"text":"但是我們現在,我很坦白的講,最重要的議事規則當然是議事處處長幹嘛坐在那裡還有我們所謂的什麼周恩來秘書長,什麼侯志廉本席從來不相信什麼侯志廉你自己寫書,就不照你自己的書去進行了"},{"start":3191.857,"end":3212.788,"text":"我也很坦白的講,人這麼一人都來,所以在4月8日的時候,4月9日禮拜二在這裏朝夕,當天4月8日在這裏坐這個位置,那天早上我已經委託律師去台北電話房提告,告警示。"},{"start":3213.849,"end":3230.484,"text":"也就是說,我相信這位秘書長以及我一職高處長,都有接受到我提告的禮告,告訴我,違反公務員服務法,行政不中立,造成整個立法院大亂。"},{"start":3232.233,"end":3254.613,"text":"照你整個國會亂想假如中部議事長你能夠秉持和你書寫的一樣的運作原則假如我們的議事處處長能夠照議事規則來的話我相信今天國會不是現在的國會因為韓院長我們都90年進來了"},{"start":3258.993,"end":3283.348,"text":"能夠和你的同事,又看到你作為院長,當然已有榮焉。那已有榮焉之餘馬上就很失望,怎麼院長是這樣幹話呢?是不是?院長我不是在說你,我講一個很坦白的話,因為經過一年了,現在因為大八美時代來臨的時候,大家都應該冷靜,好好來思考。"},{"start":3284.349,"end":3309.268,"text":"另外左邊右邊的高電數美委員,我們都是老立委我想高委員也很清楚,國際立委不是這樣的不管游說文院長的時期,乃至於王恩基民院長或是游說文院院長大家基本上都有遵守一定的游說規則沒有游說規則,你絕對請加800人"},{"start":3314.392,"end":3343.416,"text":"藍白過半就可以肢毅妄為這天哪沒救得了你啊天哪沒這種事情啊比前途你也不是特別大市長我知道中原總是逆惡的我知道你要謝謝我 但是我還是開始才要進入主席控制一下時間 謝謝柯總長我們還有十個題目要討論你這個十個題目嗎可能要三個了我來講 我只要求你"},{"start":3345.051,"end":3360.678,"text":"照議事規則來就好了沒有什麼時刻題目議事幹掉了謝謝不必謝謝我現在講回到這個主題上面去既然民進黨在昨天下班以前已經行為給你當然你今天就要主動立案了"},{"start":3362.122,"end":3379.759,"text":"這第一次,我第一次也是最後一次,我最後一次再講一次民運黨從來在一年以來,我們提的要求超越行動案子,從來不立案我們昨天只有送一個案子,為什麼突然變成三個案子,是不是以前的"},{"start":3381.04,"end":3396.219,"text":"前一陣子你看到還有兩個案子再往前看的話你會發現更多是有一二十個案子所以這三個案子原來我是當時很悶啦從下半年前我們只送一個案子"},{"start":3396.92,"end":3416.229,"text":"沒有所謂三個案子,當然你買一雙有什麼service但是不需要這種施捨,我們需要的是遊戲規則的透明而已可是今天要講的就是說,一環之音新聞六十八條是你最重要的武器"},{"start":3417.697,"end":3427.881,"text":"你可以主動要求就一直就主動出來協商但是呢請看黃昌維我剛才講的是68條講有時候講68條有時候講68口誤好謝謝就是說讓各黨人要求協商的時候"},{"start":3437.245,"end":3455.381,"text":"院長沒有迴避的潛力,也沒有忽略的潛力,也沒有不處理的潛力但是為什麼這三中來只有你一個人會這樣搞所以我還是要求第一個,沒有所謂說他們同意我們才可以立案這句話請你說回"},{"start":3458.323,"end":3481.089,"text":"這個選項怎麼走下去?那打碎函,讓民進黨黨團比較碎函,比較矮化嘛我們不可能自由矮化的只有五黨籍只有三個人,他一個人來這裡,你也要尊重他這是一個非常透明的,透明的遊戲規則好,謝謝所以,院長,郭文貴考慮不耐煩,我現在是很認真,就您和我講"},{"start":3488.131,"end":3489.973,"text":"到底我們民進黨黨團提案是否要求藍白同意"},{"start":3507.324,"end":3524.878,"text":"第二個,我們昨天下班以前送案,你今天就要列案嗎?好,謝謝,我要回答。好,謝謝自己要回答。第三,即便今天有,不管哪一黨有臨時提案的話,也可以用臨時動議提出來。"},{"start":3526.447,"end":3548.969,"text":"這黃國昌第一天就搞過這個事情了所以院長我們都很尊重所有遊戲規則但是我希望你能夠精確回答我今天的協商不知道要怎麼協商這永遠不對的協商我能在這裡告訴你一次我是一席立委所以一席立委都一樣都不可以忽視"},{"start":3555.327,"end":3574.002,"text":"特別跟柯總召各位黨的報告還有各位關心立法院發展的全國所有的好朋友的報告做立法院長一年三個月來只要坐在這個會議桌上或是在院會我一定秉持議事客觀中立"},{"start":3574.642,"end":3590.387,"text":"也許做的不是盡善盡美但是我跟周秘書長以及我們的團隊都是往這個方向一定盡量要做到公正要中立要不加入自己的價值判斷完全遵照意識規則這是第一個要報告的第二個呢周秘書長跟高處長所有的"},{"start":3591.247,"end":3611.24,"text":"所有的立法院所有這些工作夥伴們我要負最高最終的責任有什麼事情找我就好不要讓這些公務人員一輩子是個循規蹈矩本本分分在進行工作的時候柯總召提出的法律訴訟案我覺得這對他們非常不公平第三有關協商的立案"},{"start":3611.9,"end":3630.895,"text":"本席原則上是依據各黨團所有來函我們一定會把它列進去那如果有協商的必要我會斟酌來跟大家溝通那這一點呢在王金平院長時候就是如此處理我們沒有理由也沒有資格取消任何黨團所提的案子第四昨天這個的確是有個時間差"},{"start":3632.836,"end":3661.226,"text":"在已經發出開會通知之後才接到民進黨黨團這個要求針對案子的所以我們要尊重國民黨團跟民進黨團因為他們接到的開會通知沒有這個案子我必須一定要證明他們請能夠理解最後一點針對立法院這一年多是不是有胡搞亂搞啊我們請了全台灣最會開會的周萬蘭秘書長擔任委員秘書長我們都是希望立法院能夠遵守議事規則好好的走下去柯總召對我的指教呢有些地方我不敢苟同"},{"start":3661.846,"end":3685.713,"text":"就好像一個人生病了自己不吃藥叫別人去吃藥那你每次把草野協商跟樂會鬧成這個樣子然後把責任歸到我身上來這公平嗎那關於這個協商剛才民進黨團團所提的然後呢請大家參考一下要不要列入國民黨團民眾黨團如果要列入那我們就把列入大家同意我要尊重一下國民黨團跟民眾黨團也尊敬民進黨團休息"},{"start":4510.363,"end":4514.465,"text":"主席我想要再做一下釐清跟說明因為剛剛院長一直說民進黨團要求納入今天議程"},{"start":4537.415,"end":4564.3,"text":"是在昨天我們送出的時間收文的時間是5點半5點33分那在下班時間前送到所以您的說法是因為已經事前發出了今天的開會通知而且已經表定有10個議程所以就沒有把它放入您剛的說法是這樣我也沒有曲解但事實上如果以過去的經驗"},{"start":4565.86,"end":4582.812,"text":"我就以同樣是韓院長這裡發出來的院長辦公室的協商通知在民國113年11月11號當天呢您開出的協商通知有四案當天是要協商NCC的這個組織法第16條"},{"start":4585.234,"end":4607.545,"text":"考試院人事同意權然後中央政府總預算的追加預算還有民眾黨所提的這個國發基金不當管理失職調查委員會的成立與否一開始您送出來的開會通知是四個議案但是呢事後隔天就要召開協商了那隔天您在"},{"start":4609.302,"end":4632.834,"text":"當下因為有收到其他的黨團要求增列所以您也在開會前的前一天把四個議案再增列了兩個議案然後當天就在我剛剛說的原始的四項議案之後又增加了選罷法國民黨所提議的選罷法非常沒收人民權利的選罷法"},{"start":4634.791,"end":4645.705,"text":"還有呢同次也納入了民進黨團另外一個開會的要求針對財政委員會第六次會議的議事程序的爭議如果我沒有記錯是財化法所以說過去發生的經驗"},{"start":4649.608,"end":4672.297,"text":"事後在你已經發出開會通知列定協商主題之後因應各黨團又有在補題目確實為什麼各黨團要補題目就是我們看到你的協商通知怎麼沒有民進黨的主張呢所以我們循程序發函所以過去的經驗就發生過協商的前一天您也即刻的增補了其他黨團"},{"start":4673.632,"end":4689.685,"text":"的要求增加協商主題過去就發生過就是這一屆就是上個會期所以為什麼今天民進黨團昨天在下班屆期前發出來的我們真的預期今天應當您就已經列入第十一案了"},{"start":4690.305,"end":4705.05,"text":"可是並沒有這就是兩套標準兩種不同的做法上個會期就曾經納入國民黨要增加臨時最後一刻要求增加對於選罷法加深加難門檻的選罷法臨時擠入協商的議程"},{"start":4709.331,"end":4737.378,"text":"過去您為國民黨可以這樣做您為了國民黨可以把選罷法閹割人民罷免權利的議案趕快加速加緊的排入已經發出的協商通知的議程當中這不是大小眼什麼是大小眼高院長您說您沒有大小眼這不是大小眼不然什麼叫做大小眼所以我以就您擔任韓院長以後不要講再更早的"},{"start":4739.318,"end":4758.563,"text":"時間 以前每一次朝野協商臨時去更動順序 增補議案 這都再正常也不過了報告主席 我們也不想在程序上去做很多這樣子的爭執但是偏偏這一年來 立法院在程序上的不正義 在程序上的不公允"},{"start":4759.443,"end":4778.111,"text":"在對待不同黨團之間有非常明顯的差別待遇我們一定要捍衛程序正義如果沒有程序正義更不會有實質的正義所以院長您剛剛所回答的我們要求的昨天下班前遞案今天沒有排進來"},{"start":4779.372,"end":4796.781,"text":"然後還要徵詢在場的其他黨團的同意民進黨團所提的協商議案才得以列案那這就是另外一個程序委員會囉連列案都不行喔我們的國安法案光一個附中登載已經被擋了377次"},{"start":4800.183,"end":4817.891,"text":"連檔連排案都不行現在不正發生了在朝野協商的成委會檔案的狀況現在就發生啊所以沒有程序的正義哪有實質的正義只要是民進黨團提出來的協商主題您就可以反對就可以還要徵詢其他政黨"},{"start":4820.212,"end":4836.175,"text":"這不是大細膜 什麼叫做大細膜啦所以我以具體過去您主持您發出來的協商也臨時調整過 增補過所以院長請好好的說明沒有程序正義就沒有實質的正義"},{"start":4837.176,"end":4861.628,"text":"好 謝謝吳世耀委員的寶貴的發言剛才吳世耀委員發言裡面已經自己蘊藏了答案只是吳世耀委員自己沒有想清楚去年11月11號發函的時候四個題目然後前兩天 我們是11月9號就發出去所以第二天11月10號 針裂兩案吳世耀幹事長講得非常清楚這兩案 國民黨一個 民進黨一個絕對沒有大小眼 這第一件事情所以過去有做的為什麼今天不行"},{"start":4863.989,"end":4888.127,"text":"第二件事你也承認是昨天下午五點三十三分才把這個議案送進來所以我們因此考量今天的議案非常的多把它往後延那這已經解釋完畢了第三我剛剛在休息期間跟國民黨團 台灣民眾黨團都溝通過他們也都同意那這個事情我們就到此我們增加一個案子 這樣好嗎好 謝謝 其他有沒有寶貴意見請張祺凱委員請發言 副總召請準備"},{"start":4891.547,"end":4915.527,"text":"好 現在我們的講話都前場直播我看很多留言啊都在提兩個很重要的事情第一類的惡忙我們趕快進入十個 十 今天列的十案趕快討論這樣才對得起人民第二個希望我們不要再虛耗時間了裡面人留言說很懷念上次協商的時候的柯總召回來啦柯總召上次"},{"start":4917.947,"end":4944.157,"text":"很理性啊 後面的案子我們都很快的討論嘛 好不好他們甚至講啊 上次這邊要拍桌 拍桌以後有驚嘆幕 你嚇醒了才會開始回到正常今天很正常啊 所以非常非常的期待我們趕快進入這十個案子的討論那我也呼籲民進黨團看一下這十個案子裡面應該很多都是你們要的喔包括司法院人事同意權你們一直在說這個大法官要運作啊現在清德總統把人提名了"},{"start":4945.134,"end":4967.835,"text":"那今天我們就要協調要趕快 如果民進黨今天要擋議程又擋議程 又在這邊拖延了這個議程那就是民進黨去拖延整個司法院的人事同意權喔是不是這樣 這個要快那第二個也要討論的是紀念日跟結束實施條例這個就是所謂的還假移民民進黨之前砍了所有的勞工 我們國人七天的這個假"},{"start":4969.196,"end":4978.868,"text":"現在民眾黨跟國民黨提出了紀念日的這個紀念日的這個條例出來我們至少還給人民五天假我想是大家很期待的還有"},{"start":4981.314,"end":5006.772,"text":"這個核管法現在的這個5月17號馬上核三廠的二號機停電之後就進入了非核的這個家園了我們的電啊 成本會 發電成本會提高電也變髒了我相信全民也希望說這個法趕快來討論還有 這個是行政院自己很關心的中央政府前三預算的這個基礎建設的第五期的特別預算這個是牽扯到整個建設案啊我相信包括柯總召 民進黨團應該不會擋這些案子"},{"start":5008.453,"end":5032.283,"text":"所以我呼籲 我們等一下盡快就進入這十個案的討論另外至於民進黨提出有三個提出來的我覺得可以放在第十一跟十二等一下如果民進黨不是擋前面十個案子譬如說可能十五分鐘二十分鐘討論完我們可以接續來討論這個可是我要提醒兩個很重要的點第一個 請民進黨不要霸凌我們立法院的職員"},{"start":5034.244,"end":5062.325,"text":"好不好你們還對我們立法院的活字典周萬來周秘書長還提出刑事的告發這個非常非常的不好他當過考試委員他來這邊是貢獻國家的他平常在會議上面他只是個幕僚長你們有事剛剛院長已經講了有事衝著韓國瑜去不要圍我我們的秘書長也不要圍攔我們的公務人員拜託民進黨第二個"},{"start":5063.286,"end":5081.14,"text":"民進黨我建議你們看一下你們上次提的三個案子要作案來去你們要圍毆他同時要隔空打這個韓國瑜你們的案子第一個提什麼你要去報告那個立法院的那個空間利用欸這個院長早就早就討論過召集朝野協商都討論過在那裡有個委員會嘛"},{"start":5082.079,"end":5104.337,"text":"那這個叫秘書長去幹什麼呢這個當然是對著韓院長而且韓院長清清楚楚發表了聲明跟你們講你如果是有空間的這個利用問題請韓院長說他會召集朝委會一起協商嘛一討論嘛這問題解決了嘛另外一個很離譜的你什麼排流議程在司法法治委員會叫專案裡去報告什麼預防共諜的滲透"},{"start":5106.428,"end":5135.227,"text":"共諜的滲透 現在共諜不都在民進黨嗎敵人都在本能室啊要查也是民進黨自己先門關起來先好好簽 更重要的同樣司法法治委員會都邀了吳釗燮吳釗燮是國安會秘書長他旁邊有共諜我們的委員會邀他來他怎麼不來民進黨應該不是去圍欄作案的你要你就趕快去請這個吳釗燮趕快來我們的司法法治委員會這個備詢這個才是正辦 好不好所以我具體的建議 趕快我們就進入十個"},{"start":5136.749,"end":5155.17,"text":"重要案子的這個討論我們把握時間那如果有15分鐘20分鐘可以解決前面的那後面有這個三個案子我們進一步來討論把握時間 謝謝張警官委員 一句重點 多拍手少拍桌好 我們請副總召集等一下喔 欸 院長 是我現在他先好 副總 沒問題"},{"start":5157.321,"end":5172.05,"text":"那個我想謝謝院長你也辛苦啦我們整整在一個小時的時間之內都沒有進入正題我想全國人民都等很久了我們是不是 院長你就直接查一次"},{"start":5173.751,"end":5187.521,"text":"這十個今天討論的事由我們就儘快進入主題至於這個民進黨所提出的幾個案子希望能夠排入本日的議程可能在昨天"},{"start":5188.562,"end":5207.157,"text":"這個院方已經發出了這個開會事由之後啊開會通知以後才新要列入的這個案子啊我們尊重院長的才事好不好那我們就盡快進入主題好不好進入主題謝謝好我們現在請柯總統發言發言完畢之後我們開始進入主題好請"},{"start":5210.767,"end":5220.294,"text":"當然是希望找到答案不是發言完畢之後就進入主題發言了半天都沒有用的話當然這個主題要怎麼進入啊"},{"start":5221.417,"end":5246.991,"text":"院長,我現在在講的就是說,你剛才講吳士堯委員,你說這個有關於議案的安排,也有一次,有一案是民進黨的案子,我不跟你講這麼久的事情,我想今天的事情就好今天,我們昨天是五點半準時,三點半準時去定案先說是五點三十三分,也罷,沒有關係"},{"start":5248.376,"end":5274.23,"text":"那你今天早上就可以補發開會通知了嘛對不對因為我剛剛一直在講說假如當場提出來是有臨時通知可以追加的在開會以前都有黨團已經發函檢疫你要尊重就把列入開會通知況且你今天這個你今天這個案子啊是更正版的"},{"start":5275.68,"end":5293.237,"text":"你這樣更正版為什麼沒有把民進黨跟進去呢我不知道你你這更正版你既然可以更正那你應該在以更正才對嘛所以這個我要講的事情就是說所有意識規則假如是透明公平的話"},{"start":5294.658,"end":5312.785,"text":"整個意思都很暢順你不公平透明的話當沒有一個答案的話意思是很難進行下去所以今天要講的是說你現在真的是我牌桌上次我也拿帳子帳打賣國傑我那時候是這樣講的"},{"start":5316.758,"end":5335.388,"text":"你可以你晚上下班已經六點鐘開會已經結束了七點半可以跑來開會當然這我們怎麼可以吞下這口氣呢因為現在都開了你整個國民黨總統都不開了也沒關係啊你開了你本人開了也沒關係啊你可以在電視台可以這樣的已經開會時間已經到中央攔影還坐下去還在翻什麼"},{"start":5342.125,"end":5349.95,"text":"你要不要先接電話你先接電話沒關係先接電話跟上次一樣,什麼都好總之你先接電話,然後我們就趕快進入10個議審、新審你先接電話,然後我們就趕快進入10個議審、新審不要緊啦我已經接完了不要緊張沒有那個齁"},{"start":5370.562,"end":5395.349,"text":"我跟剛才 我要講一句話李競榮中學主任昨天在立法會講說你在講他40年前的事情根本那40年前的事情和今天國民黨的事情在歐元聯署的事情是完全不一樣的事情並沒有辦法掩護你們的罪行所以我什麼時候接電話 坦白講"},{"start":5396.469,"end":5418.369,"text":"並沒有 並不會影響到花園的命運好 謝謝我還沒講完 沒關係 謝謝我還沒講完 沒關係 等我講一下 等我講一下主席如果喔 還是這樣子 一再拖延喔我還沒講完啊那我們真的不同意再排這三個那到底是怎樣對啊 同意不同意啊到底要怎樣啊常委實際上可以已經不同意啊看得到 已經"},{"start":5418.829,"end":5435.659,"text":"不要得寸進尺喔不要得寸進尺好不好我們已經大家願意在協調剛才主席在休息的時候然後吳司堯你自己說嘛你自己說嘛我們大家都可以大舉為重嘛對不對不要得寸進尺嘛"},{"start":5440.081,"end":5461.341,"text":"我們現在只是願意說把你們三個案子排進去你還要這樣子一直不停的說話我們趕快進入實質的討論怎麼會為了一個柯總召你休息也休息大休息也休息不夠是不是為什麼我要住口你不住口"},{"start":5465.004,"end":5485.572,"text":"我講話時間啊講太久了啦我特別報告一下 剛才您不在的時候我們跟吳思瑤 陳柏宇 我們藍白我們全部都溝通完畢 放在後面所以跟您溝通我的意思是說聽主席講啦 聽院長講 講過啦這是好的結果嘛 我跟你溝通說把林映朗昨天5點30"},{"start":5493.666,"end":5503.999,"text":"我沒有要管我剛才說那剛才吳士耀前面在講什麼請問吳士耀前面在講什麼"},{"start":5507.927,"end":5513.912,"text":"我們的議案不需要經過你們的同意才能決定列案從來沒有要尊重各個黨團要一致這是我們在捍衛我們的權益難道說各個黨團的議案一定要大家同意才能夠列上議程這就是議事不公我們在爭取我們的權益"},{"start":5526.001,"end":5534.428,"text":"排議案是主席的權利主席都說把你們列案了你們到底要怎麼樣呢排議案本來是主席的權利啊排議案是主席的權利主席已經才是你們的案子列進去了嘛今天韓國瑜就是主持公正辦案列進去不然排哪個案子是主席的權利啊"},{"start":5548.999,"end":5557.49,"text":"就像今天到委員會一樣 潘先生不就是主席的兄弟就像今天到委員會一樣 潘先生不就是主席的兄弟就像今天到委員會一樣 潘先生不就是主席的兄弟就像今天到委員會一樣 潘先生不就是主席的兄弟就像今天到委員會一樣 潘先生不就是主席的兄弟就像今天到委員會一樣 潘先生不就是主席的兄弟就像今天到委員會一樣 潘先生不就是主席的兄弟"},{"start":5567.503,"end":5572.665,"text":"我真的必須講啦齁今天來這裡齁我們的柯總召齁他要把這個所謂我們的黨團協商變成竹林九賢啊青檀啊沒有關係啦大練修養啦可是要把你講的時間啊到底竹林九賢要講到什麼時候你不要耽誤院長的時間嘛每次都一樣"},{"start":5597.677,"end":5606.124,"text":"對不對 都沒搞清談一清談就兩個半小時全你一個人講不需要這樣啦你剛剛麥克風按掉我看到的喔我剛剛看到的喔我告訴你 總統你休息也休息夠了"},{"start":5616.031,"end":5642.077,"text":"對 你就像上次一樣打他接個電話接個電話 民主配合黨上升今天我們就可以進到十個提案去討論一個小時了 一個小時零三分到現在一個案子都不能討論 提案是什麼司法院大法官人事案是你們在 你這樣子見他那心得不好吧一開始就平等對待我的提案根本不用花這一個小時的時間主席常坐下 提起這語言"},{"start":5644.997,"end":5646.54,"text":"我們是爭取來的我們是努力爭取來的我們是努力"},{"start":5764.326,"end":5768.73,"text":"他故意的在這邊這樣子把一事一成這樣子搞成這樣子"},{"start":6244.053,"end":6245.936,"text":"請民進黨團去請柯總召好嗎"},{"start":6299.324,"end":6300.345,"text":"哎呀嗯"},{"start":6330.64,"end":6357.75,"text":"好 謝謝各位黨團幹部我再一次拜託大家今天難得這樣子好久沒有草以血創這麼多重要案子要拜託大家我們能夠盡量來溝通打成共識接下來我們再請柯總統要繼續發言完畢之後我們就進入第一題討論好嗎請簡短有力二要精確 謝謝我講話都很精確有力沒有力你們自己感受就好了好不好我現在講就是說黨叫得一來就很快"},{"start":6358.908,"end":6377.7,"text":"你不照道理來講的話,根本程序都沒有辦法進行,這是一個很簡單的道理我覺得要講的就是說,我們沒有辦法接受你用個人人身攻擊來當曹雷霄的笑話"},{"start":6379.383,"end":6404.154,"text":"本席並沒有生病,何來生病是有?我生什麼病?所以剛才那個...那個齊凱啊,聲音很膨脹的說,可是怎麼今天很正常啊?啊怎麼你說我生病他說很正常?是兩個完全其他不同的答案,是不是你座位太高,高不勝寒?"},{"start":6406.93,"end":6431.111,"text":"你應該可能要請進一下這個民意一下好不好我何來生病呢我們有同樣的病,我們兩個都沒有頭髮無髮但是不要無天好不好所以這一點我自己表示強烈抗議雖然我語氣很溫柔但是我態度是很堅定的不應該當院長不應該拿這個"},{"start":6435.29,"end":6455.381,"text":"同僚的身體來做攻擊這是犯大忌所以剛才我還拍桌因為這種情形我不拍桌,非人也該笑不笑不是柯建民該怒不怒也不是柯建民所以我今天要跟你講清楚就是這麼一回事情"},{"start":6456.684,"end":6484.433,"text":"因為坦白講整個草野鄉是院長一個很重要的維持整個院會硬轉硬做是一個非常重要的一個倡議這個倡議裡面你是你的主場用之間新的68條你可以做很多事情所以今天要講就是說即便昨天我們5點半送頭去"},{"start":6485.615,"end":6505.649,"text":"今天下午是三點鐘開始協商這中間從早上九點到下午三點你可以主動追加民進黨案子這是一個很重要的你只可以過去訪問院長活動的院長會看到他馬上追加所以到"},{"start":6507.439,"end":6522.588,"text":"會更正朝野協商通知,你這個也有更正過,但是為什麼我們東西又不跟進來了?這一點我就覺得,我不知道你還有多少次讀朝野協商,至少做先合上裝先裝吧,好不好?"},{"start":6523.708,"end":6533.392,"text":"這一點我希望你能夠接受,你的語氣看起來很有誠意,那我們繼續往下走我要駁斥一些事情,剛剛張其凱委員講說今天所有案子都是你民進黨要的,我搞不清楚哪一個是民進黨要的"},{"start":6552.737,"end":6578.586,"text":"司法院人事同意權嗎?等一下吧不要喔?那個什麼前瞻基礎建設你們不要喔?等一下你聽我講好不好?我們先讓柯總統講好不好?你不要做價值判斷喔柯總統請繼續請繼續所謂大法官人事同意權是你們現在國務黨在呼籲中的既然呼籲你還來這裡延長什麼事情?這個邏輯上有問題,你們國務黨提呼籲提問還沒處理啊那你來這裡什麼延長?"},{"start":6580.774,"end":6598.363,"text":"所以這個邏輯都有問題嘛你現在講什麼前端基礎建設前端基礎建設當然是我們要的啊前端基礎建設弄三期8400億是最後一期了最後一期當然一定要處理啊"},{"start":6598.963,"end":6614.591,"text":"但是不是說要處理的錯,就是說這案子要怎麼遂行比較重要當然要有說案子嘛,這個東西比較有正當性今天要講程式性問題,不是講內容性問題張清華你不可以判他刑,我們也無法說你這什麼說實"},{"start":6625.58,"end":6635.366,"text":"法會史是我們要的,其他哪一個是我們要的?說金恩日記、吉祥小禮是我們要的你到底有沒有看過過去的歷史?"},{"start":6639.297,"end":6658.907,"text":"我們根本和你思維不一樣嘛你不想拿這個你們想要的東西來強姦我們要吞下去嘛我請問黃岸四法公認罪你們難道你最喜歡不想修正我不知道黃國昌今晚出差的不知道什麼意思這柯恩的"},{"start":6661.135,"end":6679.587,"text":"柯文哲他已經這麼確鑿,已經檢判起訴,有收到禁卷然後你還說這是赤裸迫害,這樣會不會撐下去?這樣會不會撐下去?是不是這樣?已經收到禁卷,所以你用這個東西一直在配小丑"},{"start":6680.527,"end":6688.659,"text":"坦白講,這毫無正當性的我講完話以後沒有關係他已經收押了嘛"},{"start":6695.319,"end":6720.282,"text":"他沒有確認證據的話檢察官也把他的賴賴之後還原出來嘛所以我跟柯文哲的案子,坦白講我跟他是老朋友柯文哲今天我也覺得怎麼會這樣但是呢凡事自己做自己要擔我今天這樣講那我們看到一些"},{"start":6722.614,"end":6749.542,"text":"目前媒體的報導以及檢察官偵查的作為可以看得出來檢察官自己說是一定有他的根據所以我們不應該對司法尊重因為不應該再去說這是就是用國家機器在做司法的迫害"},{"start":6750.947,"end":6753.374,"text":"這樣講反而對整個民進黨是不利的"},{"start":6758.697,"end":6783.842,"text":"已經兩個小時了,我們開會已經兩個小時了我們今天要講清楚就是說,到底我們今天誰當,我們一定要遵守原則嘛就是要公開透明,大家都一樣的原則方向來走,這樣才走得下去所以我希望說今天總共有十個案子,加上我們列三個案子總要讓我提案說明一下"},{"start":6784.902,"end":6811.61,"text":"我讓他提案說明一下好 稍微等一下好嗎我們先進入一題一題一題我們現在已經兩個小時開會我們現在趕快進入第一題你等一下到了那個題目的時候你再發言嘛 好不好我當然講題目再發言是有方向但是我今天認出來認出來我應該就是我應該可以來做個說明吧是 他照每一個次序的話那我回到好不好 拜託一下 拜託一下 拜託一下"},{"start":6812.75,"end":6838.444,"text":"我針對你的發言,你剛才講說,不管周恩來秘書長,乃至於這個高百祥秘書處長所犯任何錯誤,到你為止你要來承擔我不知道你能承擔什麼事情,你認為他犯了什麼錯誤你認為他犯錯誤你來承擔嘛,到你為止嘛,那代表你主觀認定上他是有錯誤的"},{"start":6840.157,"end":6854.148,"text":"只有錯誤了,他所犯的錯誤,你能夠用什麼來把他的錯誤轉交到你身上?這個機制是什麼機制我聽不大懂你應該說明一下因為坦白講,就在這個地方,中央藍營藝術場也曾經來做過中央報告來這個地方讀過,也來列舉過"},{"start":6867.742,"end":6881.872,"text":"這已經包括過去所有秘書長,一、三秘書長,乃至於林志強秘書長,都來我專案報告的列席可是你欠引用,今天要挑戰你的,就是說你是在上次會議結束的時候,你自己做一個宣告"},{"start":6882.796,"end":6898.306,"text":"那宣告是完全不對,是既違法又違憲了為什麼你引用大完事實事由於?大完事實事由於是當年川普總統要不要來立法院報告類型是1998年的時候"},{"start":6903.226,"end":6931.674,"text":"要不要來,所以我去做大法官解釋,大法官解釋說,超某總長他負責,他必須來對於他預算,對於法案上,必須來立法院備詢好,謝謝所以中央黨秘書長你和那個是不大一樣的好,謝謝中央黨秘書長並不是超某總長那樣的等級,他是整個立法院的議員整個立法院秘書長,他常常都坐在,你坐在他就坐在你旁邊嘛"},{"start":6932.674,"end":6944.926,"text":"所以他必須來做說明嘛為了什麼他必須來說明為了什麼說開會時間已經過了可以積極開會這個很重要嘛好 謝謝不要謝謝講到這個地方你可能會感到比較尷尬一點"},{"start":6951.877,"end":6964.091,"text":"沒有 我不是第十案 因為剛才他自己提過好 謝謝你拜託沒有關係啊 你要替他為事法 你要替他為事也不是這樣為事法因為剛才"},{"start":6969.156,"end":6989.843,"text":"海岸長自己講說他要承擔這個責任我總統要挑戰我問他承認責任的機制要如何轉到你身上你能夠怎麼樣承擔呢是不是這樣而且對於這個有關於國安的問題他還不來那奇怪啊因為立法院簽這個事情"},{"start":6991.482,"end":7008.76,"text":"他也不來報告,當然是立法院秘書長要負責啊立法院簽件是從以前1993年我們來立法院的時候就在討論立法院簽件那時候立法院簽件到華山嘛,要三百多億嘛那時候沒有簽件事"},{"start":7010.482,"end":7033.325,"text":"有新黨的立法委員講說這個立法院簽件的話就代表立法院要代表國民政府不反攻大陸所以這個案子就卡死了這當年的歷史是這樣所以這個案子一直是存在的包括王院長的存在都在研擬中最積極當然是由尤其文院長"},{"start":7034.466,"end":7055.994,"text":"至少他認為他終於一個院長立完這種開會場所是一個過去小學來改裝的是不符合現代化的一個國會這也是有道理啦所以用這個題目請中院院長來做報告何錯之有啊院長你應該面對這些問題來好好示意嘛不是一直謝謝而已嘛"},{"start":7061.856,"end":7082.286,"text":"發言差不多我們要進入主題好不好謝謝柯總召你把麥克風切掉好嗎發言完畢我會尊重你你放心剛剛柯總講人身攻擊這個事情如果讓柯總召有不舒服的感覺我很抱歉因為我是舉一個例子一個人有病叫別人吃藥代表他文不對題他沒有找到主軸我是這個意思並不是攻擊你"},{"start":7082.586,"end":7105.564,"text":"而且我也認為你非常健康非常健康 因為我發言時間那麼長你口才是不錯 而且中氣十足謝謝 我特別要講一聲因為我認為你是一個很誠意的狀態好不好我們都有病啊沒有沒有沒有我們這個製作人頭髮都是很少啊沒有沒有頭髮身心靈最重要身心靈最重要好 那我絕對不值得攻擊你的意思我舉這個例子黃總統請發言 請黃總統請發言來"},{"start":7113.032,"end":7139.026,"text":"那個謝謝院長其實我一直希望開會的時候就針對主題啊來加油發言那有的時候很遺憾啊柯建民總召完全沒有針對主題在發言那利用自己漫長發言的時間進行恣意啊的攻擊我相信全程直播大家都可以看得到今天針對"},{"start":7141.161,"end":7163.23,"text":"我們要討論的事項到目前為止現在已經一個半小時了都還沒有辦法實際上面進行那柯建民總召他要針對各式各樣的議題發表他個人的感想他可以去開記者會他也可以去開直播"},{"start":7164.537,"end":7185.403,"text":"這都是他的自由但問題是在黨團協商的時候 恣意的攻擊其他的人我覺得這不是我們坐在這邊黨團協商的重點那特別說什麼 特別說提到柯文哲主席"},{"start":7186.853,"end":7212.501,"text":"請問柯文哲主席跟妨礙司法公正罪到底有什麼關係什麼是妨礙司法公正罪妨礙司法公正罪是不法去關說司法不法去關說司法什麼叫不法去關說司法自己有刑事案件的時候找人去幫你去跟法務部部長講叫檢察官不要提起上訴這個叫不法關說"},{"start":7214.244,"end":7239.318,"text":"我相信這件事情 柯建民總召 刻骨銘心你等一下喔 你要講話負責講話不要插 人家在講話我叫你講話負責所以啦 對啊我說話我負責啊 但是你講話我為什麼不要跑難不成要跟上次一樣喔你自己關在這個會議室裡面直播到晚上九點半"},{"start":7240.509,"end":7268.248,"text":"其他人都不能跑喔要替你自己在那邊直播喔對啊 現在問題就來了嘛我們的立法院什麼時候可以讓人家大戰會議室啊把門都鎖起來 其他人不能進來立法院的會議室什麼時候成為私人的場所了上一次會議的時候發生了什麼事情我相信全程直播大家看得都非常的清楚上一次會議的爭執"},{"start":7270.689,"end":7298.667,"text":"要測案的也是民主進步黨立法院黨團總召柯建民先生說他要測案整個會議都有記錄啊第二個今天討論在這邊然後結果開始扯到柯文哲了對不起啊我無法認同更無法接受什麼叫做自己的事自己擔檢察官縮壓有他的道理等等的那跟妨礙司法公正罪有什麼關係"},{"start":7300.796,"end":7327.713,"text":"跟妨礙司法公正罪有什麼關係什麼叫妨礙司法公正我再說一次啊去叫法務部部長然後去找檢察官針對自己的刑事案件不要提起上訴這個才叫妨礙司法公正啊這個叫做不法的關說啊今天我坐在這邊是代表台灣民眾黨立法院黨團針對今天院長"},{"start":7329.534,"end":7355.513,"text":"在開會通知上面所要協商的事項包括大法官包括前瞻基礎建設包括國定假日法包括妨礙司法公正罪等等重要的議題來參與協商我們坐在這邊基本上是對於院長的尊重基本上是對於院長的尊重但容我再講一次我們沒有必要坐在這邊"},{"start":7357.501,"end":7366.948,"text":"聽一個人利用自己發言的機會 恣意的攻擊動不動就叫人家不要走 要休息講話跟耍流氓一樣"},{"start":7368.274,"end":7393.924,"text":"我們沒有必要忍受這樣的事情我非常誠懇的跟院長講這件事情特別是我坐在這邊連坐在這邊你都要扯柯文哲對不起啊我無法接受啦我無法接受啦對啊所以跟妨礙施打公認罪有什麼關係人家有去叫檢察官說不要針對我的刑事案件提起上訴啊"},{"start":7395.359,"end":7396.961,"text":"好丟臉喔真的是好丟臉喔"},{"start":7407.738,"end":7422.65,"text":"就放棄言論免責權嘛這裡哪有什麼言論免責權歡迎你去告我啦白紙黑字記載得非常清楚了啦你還有臉坐在這邊講反對司法通證你自己不會臉紅喔自己不會覺得丟臉喔還是自己覺得丟臉硬要扯柯文哲"},{"start":7428.354,"end":7450.73,"text":"丟人現眼啦你看連我現在在講話他都繼續在插嘴欸這個就是民主進步黨立法院黨團總召柯建民的風範只有他發言的時候可以自己的去罵罵別人然後別人在這邊講話的時候他死都不肯把那個麥克風按掉不斷的插嘴不斷的干擾這個是什麼會議秩序啊"},{"start":7455.8,"end":7468.565,"text":"這個是什麼會議秩序啊我們為什麼有必要容忍這樣子的事情啊謝謝院長你趕快走謝謝啊接下來我們請王宏威委員發言請"},{"start":7470.883,"end":7472.485,"text":"今天其實我們很久沒有由院長來召開朝野協商"},{"start":7487.001,"end":7509.591,"text":"所以我們其實累積的案件非常非常之多然後其實在這十個案件裡面有非常重要的包含大法官的人事同意權還有其實我們在昨天在明天已經排入討論事項的前瞻基礎建設的第五期特別預算其實我們"},{"start":7510.431,"end":7513.993,"text":"在國民黨團已經把它列入討論事項那其實我們很遺憾的在星期二的程旭委員會的時候呢民進黨團是反對甚至反對我們把前瞻建設這個第五期特別預算把它列進去然後今天繼續在黨所以呢今天證明的黨預算的是民進黨團"},{"start":7537.142,"end":7558.468,"text":"那另外呢我們這個河管法其實也非常重要大家都知道在5月17號即將河山場就要走入歷史所以我們希望在現在台灣民眾有很多的民調都顯示起碼有六成的民眾希望"},{"start":7558.888,"end":7584.34,"text":"能夠保留在我們的能源裡面能夠保留這個核電能夠核電廠能夠繼續研議所以我們是搶救核三廠但是非常可惜的是現在看起來民進黨團尤其柯總召以冗長的發言而且以公報私仇的方式其實就是想要羞辱周萬蘭秘書長想要羞辱"},{"start":7587.541,"end":7614.777,"text":"我們的院長韓國瑜院長的方式去阻撓我們剛才所講的不管是前瞻基礎建設的預算案或者是合管法還有刑法的修正另外那麼我們還有就是公投案兩個公投案大家都知道我們在法定時間8月23日是公投的法定時間然後一再的阻擋難道是要阻擋"},{"start":7615.837,"end":7637.645,"text":"公民來投這個公投的一個權利嗎另外廣大的勞工希望能夠還假於民所以我們今天也排入了紀念日及節日的實施條例草案希望能夠在國定假日的部分能夠增加能夠回應廣大民眾的需求"},{"start":7638.385,"end":7653.491,"text":"所以我必須說今天我們提了這十個案子其實是各個領域不管是在經濟或在民生上面民眾都高度重視高度關注的可是沒有想到"},{"start":7653.991,"end":7657.193,"text":"民進黨團只是因為自己的提案然後不惜現在我們的時間已經將近兩個小時完全沒有辦法進入政題所以在這邊我們必須在這邊置表遺憾那麼也覺得這個主席非常的辛苦那麼我在這邊也特別的提出來"},{"start":7677.285,"end":7684.59,"text":"如果今天柯總召繼續用這樣的方式在浪費時間他不是只是浪費我們這些黨團幹部的時間他事實上是在浪費全民的時間拖垮台灣的經濟 拖垮台灣的民生如果這樣子繼續下去 我真的覺得我們今天這樣的協商還要不要繼續的延續下去我想就麻煩主席能夠做出裁示 以上謝謝"},{"start":7719.36,"end":7725.222,"text":"有些事情要澄清跟說明朝野協商的場域不應當去做不正當的訊息的散播民進黨沒有在程序委員會去擋前瞻"},{"start":7744.548,"end":7771.905,"text":"反對的是國民黨整包你們是整包把所有的議案綁在一起你們的整包裡面有我們認為目前不妥還要再討論的議案所以我們反對的是你們整包這種包裹式的列案我們並不會也沒有反對前瞻建設前瞻建設是我比你們早一點點在立法院歷經第九屆第十屆被國民黨丟麵粉丟水球我們"},{"start":7772.867,"end":7784.819,"text":"用在這種威脅之下爭取而來的前瞻建設我們怎麼會去反對他呢那另外呢我想也是要再做一下說明喔這剛剛講的這兩個公投案喔這兩個公投案的本質就是一個為了在野黨怕罷免就罷免硬要來操弄公投作為"},{"start":7794.389,"end":7823.24,"text":"政治動員的一個假公投假議題的工具而已所以民進黨當然不認同這種台灣並沒有廢死台灣也沒有戒嚴這種空殼的假議題的為了救罷免而提出來的公投案完全沒有正當性在法裡面也站不住腳我們的立場已經多次說明了這當然是我們會保留意見的還有核管法"},{"start":7823.88,"end":7845.333,"text":"核管法核能是不是要研議一定要兼具三個前提第一個要有社會共識第二個核能安全不能打折第三個核廢料的處置有沒有更好的解方在這三個條件沒有辦法具足之前國民黨要用一個修法的方式就要讓核三來研議"},{"start":7848.255,"end":7866.606,"text":"這是開什麼玩笑把全國人民的生命財產安全置於何處另外呢剛剛黃國昌總召講到妨礙司法公正罪然後他就依舊帥氣的背著他的小包包依舊帥氣的噴完口水然後就離開"},{"start":7868.047,"end":7896.19,"text":"每一次的朝野協商黃國昌總召似乎是三黨總召裡頭最沒有去履行總召職務的你看看到現在柯總召還在現場傅總召也還在現場永遠最早離席的然後把自己都說的都比誰更認真的黃國昌永遠是最早離席的那個人剛剛我們所提到的妨礙司法公正罪什麼叫做妨礙司法公正"},{"start":7897.558,"end":7918.954,"text":"帶著民粹的操弄去衝北檢去衝北院這不就是妨礙司法公正嗎這不就是讓我們的司法人員要受於政治力的干預沒有辦法獨立行使司法的權利嗎黃國昌還敢提妨礙司法公正罪的刑法修法請民眾黨好好去想想"},{"start":7919.835,"end":7930.153,"text":"你們這樣操弄民粹 拿民粹來鬥臭司法還敢提這個法案回到今天協商的主題的第一案也要就教於主席喔"},{"start":7931.263,"end":7952.116,"text":"每一個朝野協商的議程議案是可以調整的就如同你們今天是更正你們更正的是第十案把選罷法本來的更正前的條文是第七十條跟第七十三條等等你們今天更正為第五十七條換言之是可以更正的這是你們的更正"},{"start":7953.297,"end":7974.094,"text":"那所以在更正的同時為什麼沒有把民進黨要求的議案放進來好這個問題我們剛剛已經釐清了好也願意放進來了但是以後請不要再大小眼第二個我也非常的納悶要進入如果稍後可以順利進入這個程序第一案司法院的人事同意權現在我們也非常不解"},{"start":7975.035,"end":7989.248,"text":"民進黨我們認為要來討論司法院人事同意權的後續程序大家可以討論它有法定的期程這確實需要朝野協商可是國民黨明明對於司法院大法官的人事同意權提出了復議案"},{"start":7991.289,"end":8015.094,"text":"這週二國民黨在院會提出了復議案換言之國民黨已經暫時擋下了冷凍住了這個司法院人事同意權的行使的這個程序我也非常不解一個已經被國民黨提出復議案現在在議事的程序上就是沒有辦法進行的時候你居然把它排在協商的第一案"},{"start":8015.914,"end":8045.334,"text":"那國民黨倒是要說說看你們為什麼要把大法官人士同意權提出複議把它停住因為一程序你提出複議就需要在下一次下下次某一次的院會上去解除那個複議這個複議可能很多那個直播的朋友不知道這個是立法院內部的複議跟行政院的複議不一樣那國民黨自己明明對於司法院大法官人士同意權提出複議了那今天你把它列在協商的第一案"},{"start":8046.415,"end":8057.61,"text":"他在議程上就是現在沒有辦法處理嘛所以這倒是院長要說明啊所以說朝野協商的議程因為我們的議案不斷的在變動"},{"start":8059.215,"end":8077.656,"text":"所以朝野協商的議程確實過去都會調來調去這是院長依據各黨提出的議案然後去調配所以說各黨的意見都要被合理的尊重跟相等的對待這是第一點第二點"},{"start":8079.438,"end":8103.976,"text":"應當議事人員 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顧立雄部長"},{"start":2019.896,"end":2044.321,"text":"這個常務市長 我們楊次長中將我們就以主管來做介紹那退不會主任委員 顏德發主委行政院主計總處專門委員 邱碧珠行政院人事行政總處"},{"start":2049.497,"end":2067.882,"text":"記憶福利處曾處長副處長曾益群法務部法紀司副司長謝志敏權系部專門委員朱美英勞動部專門委員侯松妍"},{"start":2076.65,"end":2079.499,"text":"台銀人壽副總陳鴻爵以上"},{"start":2085.148,"end":2109.48,"text":"本日協商會議,請出席的黨團代表表示意見。各黨團輪流發言,每位委員發言時間為5分鐘。那協商時,請參議院進覆二讀提案,關係文書及協商條文對照表。議會委員如有修正動機或機關有建議內容,請提出書面,應發現場進行討論。"},{"start":2116.497,"end":2141.588,"text":"現在開始進行協商第一個主題本院國民黨黨團凝聚金人保險條例第十條及第十六條條文修正草案請各位參與關係文書草案有兩條修正條文我們先討論金人保險條例第十條主要是修正第五項及第六項金人保險至保險費"},{"start":2142.848,"end":2149.493,"text":"前額由政府負擔首先我們先前提提案的國民黨黨團代表發言那大家知道現在國際局勢動盪那兩岸也劍拔弩張那國防的需求持續的增加"},{"start":2161.567,"end":2189.675,"text":"但是國防國防國防萬事其實不離人啦所以現在你也看到國軍邊線筆卻持續下探怎麼樣留住好的我們的國防的人才那變成是當務之急所以除了要提高縫緊之外福利津貼我覺得也要應該同步的跟進所以我們希望今天的這個法案能夠得到我們朝野的黨團以及包括我們政府機關的一起支持以上謝謝"},{"start":2195.256,"end":2219.896,"text":"好 我們沈委員收尾好 謝謝主席那這個我還是比較先這個概括性的講就是說因為我們今天有四個案子那這四個案子呢要嘛就是牽涉到這個軍公教的一個橫頻那另外呢像現在我們討論的這一個案子還有等一下的第三第四都直接牽涉到這一個預算的增加"},{"start":2220.857,"end":2244.084,"text":"那我是覺得當然第一個有沒有侵害到這一個所謂的這一個我們原本的這個財政應該是要由誰來做這個預算的編列等等之類這個我就不多說但我覺得更重要的事情是因為這一些說真的都算是有爭議然後也是應該是有好好的討論那我們這個會期是一個法案會期那照理說應該就是在委員會"},{"start":2245.024,"end":2267.906,"text":"然後不管是透過質詢等等的方式來討論這些事更不要講說其實在上會期的這個組決議的時候其實很多地方我們已經有做過相關的一個組決議那甚至在加級的部分的國防部也已經提出了相關的方案那照理說這應該要聚焦不管是之前的組決議國防部後來的作為然後以及現在這個各立委所提出來的案子"},{"start":2268.266,"end":2296.416,"text":"他應該要能夠在委員會聚焦然後聚焦完之後呢可能發現其中有一個點大家無法協商這個點呢大家無法達成共識然後再進入到現在這一個協商那現在沒有現在全部都近乎二讀那全部都近乎二讀就失去了我們本來在委員會討論的意義所以呢我還是很希望這件事情能夠先在委員會被討論然後聚焦因為他的點太多了就跟上次我們在討論那個反戒嚴公投一樣那裡面的問題大概有十幾個"},{"start":2297.196,"end":2318.946,"text":"那如果能夠在委員會把它限縮成譬如說兩三個點然後再進入協商我覺得這樣的意義會比較大那不然的話這個協商會變得流於過水那我第一次發言 謝謝還有誰願意發言那我們就補充介紹林倩琦委員好 王定一委員發言"},{"start":2321.592,"end":2347.765,"text":"謝謝主席我想不管照顧國軍照顧軍公教照顧農民漁民都是政府跟我們大家的共識所以當我們在討論這樣問題的話其實最坦白講比較廉價的說法就是因為他重要所以我對他好所以我錢就發下去事實上在社會上每個部門的人都同樣重要但是確實工作不同就應該有不同的待遇"},{"start":2348.425,"end":2374.427,"text":"所以像我們當時在處理年金改革的時候因為國軍24小時在營區因為國軍他不是想做到65歲就能做到65歲他有停留年限的問題所以在退休給予的方式我們當時本席當任召委在審查的時候都希望能夠給國軍更好更高的相關那個立場我不認為有黨派之分不分藍綠白大家應該都是一樣的"},{"start":2375.248,"end":2402.453,"text":"所以我們在討論這一個相關的知己或者福利的時候應該要考慮到我們的合法合憲的立法過程以及相關財政的和平性才能夠讓這樣子的相關的給予能夠可長可久而不流於訴諸情緒甚至於社會造成對立的討論方式以這一次四個案子我們來看在"},{"start":2403.894,"end":2418.592,"text":"所謂的照顧的方向我們國防部已經在不管新鳳跟相關的家籍已經給予調高而且今年調高過去有調高每年的3%也會調高我們希望更高"},{"start":2419.113,"end":2437.967,"text":"但是我們希望每一個調高都有財務的基礎來做支撐能夠不僅是軍人的調高也希望在不同的行業別能夠有橫平性這個社會才能夠穩定的進步在教育的部分中校以降當然我們有教育的相關的補助"},{"start":2438.567,"end":2468.027,"text":"那上校也是我們社會的一份子我們也應該給予照顧但是在目前賴清德總統就任開始就是在就任前我們對私立大學的學費補助每學期已經提高到三萬五千元這一個已經把私立大學的學費負擔我們希望盡量把它彌平那我們也可以好好來討論能不能給予更多我認為這個問題是可以討論的不代表它不應該被討論但是我們在立法過程當中"},{"start":2469.067,"end":2492.844,"text":"淨複二讀我們在過去這麼多年來也許一屆的立委淨複二讀的案子可能不會超過十件我們現在幾乎每個案子都淨複二讀而淨複二讀除了展現多數對你有這個能力以外其實它失去一個很重要在議事討論當中重要的精神就是每個案子的法條我們每個人可能都有思慮不周的地方"},{"start":2493.464,"end":2513.077,"text":"透過不同黨派的人在委員會在二讀在黨團協商可以讓這個條文更精準可以讓條文能夠不要顧此失比或者在立法過程當中立了一個不能執行的法這個案子在充分討論上失去了機會直接進負二讀就要來表決"},{"start":2514.358,"end":2534.815,"text":"那第二個在討論的過程當中也可以透過跟行政部門的溝通協調在財務為基準的方式下不管是保險不管是相關的福利的給予可以在財務的考量下取得行政立法的溝通過程達成合憲的立法"},{"start":2535.655,"end":2542.338,"text":"這才會變有用所以不管是根據我們預算法或者憲法第70條或者釋憲文的264號 391號都告訴我們這樣子的立法過程沒有行政部門的參與或者意見"},{"start":2551.181,"end":2571.448,"text":"立法部門做增加預算支出之立法不管是透過法律案透過基金透過預算案這樣子的立法恐有違憲的疑慮那就沒辦法達到我們原來要照顧國軍弟兄的良善的美意所以本先生我們肯定不管是國民黨民眾黨或民進黨"},{"start":2572.808,"end":2589.385,"text":"大家都知道國軍弟兄姊妹的重要我們都希望對他們更好對退休人員也希望給予更好的照顧但是基於財務的橫頻不同行業別的橫頻立法過程充分討論的必要以及立法當中"},{"start":2590.426,"end":2612.337,"text":"合憲合法的討論才能夠訂出一個可執行的法律所以基於以上我建議主席有關這個案子我們不要過水協商應該在更多的討論按照我剛才講的我說這個案子不是不能討論我們就好好回到委員會一個案子一個案子討論財務討論請行政部門提出財務計畫然後進到黨團協商進到三讀那多數的表決還是會贏嘛"},{"start":2619.841,"end":2645.496,"text":"而不是用這種急救章的方式審略了這過程最後這個案子變成了政治攻防的焦點我不認為我們的國軍我們的退休的我們農民的弟兄們希望他們成為這個政治攻防的焦點應該是成為一個制度討論過程當中的受益者以上所以我建議這個案子是不是回到委員會重新一案一案好好來討論審視 以上"},{"start":2648.134,"end":2650.496,"text":"那我們補充介紹 徐巧欣委員那林一欣委員發言原則上我們是不反對啦但基於財政紀律的話我們請部會送來的財政預算上面的經受我們會透過黨團再做一次內部的討論然後再做最後的定調"},{"start":2686.178,"end":2711.156,"text":"我們請謝小新委員發言好 謝謝那這一次的這個我們有好幾個法案那我們有國民黨團的這個提出的版本那首先我想要先說明一下剛才大家在講到的是說是不是我們可以慢慢來做討論但是我已經去詢問了非常多的國軍尤其是基層的弟兄他們對這件事情是非常急迫的"},{"start":2711.856,"end":2725.468,"text":"所以不像刚才讲到的说大家可以慢慢审慢慢慢慢看但我们的这些基层很多人都说如果这个会期没有通过他们都要退了这是我们实际上面去访问基层的声音"},{"start":2727.089,"end":2728.851,"text":"我想我們一項一項來講首先在財務上面我們每年的超收金額稅金其實都是5000億這個案子裡面我大概算過了一下其實跟稅增超收比起來小得很"},{"start":2743.403,"end":2767.515,"text":"所以呢既然我们每年的税增超收都是这么的多那如果我们把一些预算能够给我们的军人尤其是现在两岸之间那个韩国瑜院长也讲嘛三把刀其中一刀是什么军演刀所以呢当我们现在面对两岸之间的兵凶战围的时候我们要如何让我们的国军弟兄他们拥有更好的待遇"},{"start":2768.055,"end":2782.395,"text":"我要告訴大家如果我們是呢最低的這個進來的這個薪資那加一加大概三萬元左右那三萬元左右的這個薪資我們在外面找工作他不需要被綁在軍營裡面他不需要遵守什麼軍神法"},{"start":2783.496,"end":2804.378,"text":"他是一个非常自由的甚至呢我们讲坐Uber也好付Panda也好他如果很认真的去跑的话他一个月跑出7万块钱没有问题可是我们国军弟兄刚进来的时候那他的薪水3万多块这个有合理吗所以呢我想哦分成两个部分第一个呢我们先讲Ewe的薪资哦"},{"start":2804.738,"end":2822.443,"text":"那當初行政院的版本提的是21350元那其實呢如果我們就訂定這個過程跟這個金額的話那未來如果有通貨膨脹呢未來如果就像先前的這個年金改革一樣沒有考慮到通貨膨脹的問題沒有考慮到物價往上的問題"},{"start":2825.424,"end":2848.801,"text":"那是不是到时候我们又要再修改一次又要再住在这里一次所以最低工资我们就直接其实没有差多少钱嘛28590然后跟21350我们把它当成一个一年份的工作当它呢最低薪资往上的时候我们就往上提就把它当成一份工作再来志愿一家级的部分呢我对行政院的版本是不满意的"},{"start":2849.221,"end":2857.728,"text":"因為原本的版本我們的志願役加級不管你是哪一個上校以下中上校跟將官都是一萬塊你現在把它搞成一萬五一萬四一萬三之後它會出現一個亂象就是有的人他軍階比較高"},{"start":2867.216,"end":2892.003,"text":"但他在拿了战斗加急之后呢他的反而领的薪水比较少就会有这样的问题原本既然大家都是一万块那我们就同时的加两万块让大家都平衡在三万块这也不会影响到原本我们在写这个所谓的志愿意加急的时候的原意所以为什么我们特别加了这个志愿意的加急入法的原因就是大家一致"},{"start":2892.643,"end":2916.349,"text":"所以这个当时政院版本提出的不一致性我们问了基层的军官他们反而变成说在军中里面有斗争军中里面各自不满对方那另外一个部分我们在军人待遇条例里面的第五里面我们特别把地域加急战斗部队加急跟超时加急加出来那这个部分我们是完全尊重行政院那他们的这个规划"},{"start":2916.889,"end":2937.768,"text":"所以包含是戰鬥加擠的部分那我們也很肯定這個行政院版本提出來的這個內容那超時加擠的部分呢這是我特別提到的就是我們現在因為兵兇戰委的關係所以很多我們的同仁他是沒有辦法休假的那沒有辦法休假呢其他的我們說公教人員他們都可以怎麼樣可以轉換成比如說薪資或什麼的但是呢我們現在的軍人是沒有這個福利沒有加班費的"},{"start":2943.533,"end":2968.417,"text":"所以要怎么去定定我们交给行政院来决定我们也不坚持一定要怎么样但是我们希望有这一块能够让我们的军人朋友他如果一直都没有休假的时候不要让他这样一直抄下去至少他可以有一些经费的补贴最后我们讲军保补助的部分我们希望能够全额补助这个对军人来说他们在整体而言也会是一个相当大的一个加分"},{"start":2968.837,"end":2987.285,"text":"那最後這個其實退休子女補助費這個部分我們先前就已經討論過了不分藍綠都是支持的所以我們精算過後大概整個版本裡面一年大概是427億元左右那完全在財政負擔上面我認為是沒有問題的所以我們就提供這幾個法案"},{"start":2987.685,"end":3000.637,"text":"那另外到時候我們也有提出一點點的這個臨時提案就是小東西臨時提案不是臨時提案對不起就修正動議的部分那小的修正動議那待會再跟大家做說明謝謝好那我們請機關代表說明針對"},{"start":3011.087,"end":3019.07,"text":"以軍人保險條例的第四條待會再補充齊小卿委員所疑問的顧部長我想我們就請我們的職規司司長說一個招委各位委員大家好喔那我想有關於我先來說明一下就是軍人保險條例"},{"start":3040.887,"end":3066.264,"text":"我先来说明一下那个军人保险条例的部分就是说保费全额由政府负担的这个部分其实它最主要的一个问题是说因为军人保险它的设计是社会保险的一环那它的社会保险它具有一个强制保险的一个特色就是说它不管它保险的时候不需要核保它也不用考虑它的产生的一个风险它要负担就跟它的薪资成比例的一个保费"},{"start":3070.667,"end":3074.069,"text":"所以這個對於各個執域之間的一個保險制度的平衡的確會產生很大的一個衝擊所以這個部分我們是希望能夠審慎的來考慮"},{"start":3101.429,"end":3111.566,"text":"國防部那個機關代表的是你自我介紹一下好不好主席好我是那個資源規劃師司長資源規劃師司長是好那另外我們就針對"},{"start":3113.393,"end":3137.065,"text":"金融保險條例的第16條請機關代表來發言是 那有關於第16條的規定黨團隊這邊的提案是希望說我們軍保可以比照公教滿一年有1.2個基數但事實上我們的設計是公教的保險雖然是滿一年有1.2個基數但是它必須累滿15年"},{"start":3138.246,"end":3157.092,"text":"或65歲以後才可以請領那我們的軍保的設計是滿五年就可以請領那如果你沒有滿到五年你要提前退的話其實你繳的保費我們會退還給保險人所以這個其實我們考我們已經考慮到就是軍人的職業上面的特性來做我們保險制度的一個設計以上報告我們就今天針對"},{"start":3166.027,"end":3183.02,"text":"今天本日協商的第一個主題本院國民黨黨團凝聚金融保險條例第十條及第十六條修正草案那因為無法取得共識所以本案我們就送請院會院長來作為協商接下來進行協商的第二個主題"},{"start":3193.404,"end":3205.208,"text":"這個我們這裡在協商如果是有意義的協商剛才的意見有來有往嘛大家意見不一樣應該可以討論那現在變成大家講完之後就保留了就意思說各書幾字不用討論就直接保留送回來這樣就過水而已啊"},{"start":3210.717,"end":3233.432,"text":"接下来进行协商第二个主题本院国民党党团凝聚国金退除役官兵辅导条例增订第27条之二条文草案请各位参议院关系文书主要是恢复上校以上退股金关之子女教育补助首先我们请提案的国民党党团代表发言"},{"start":3235.152,"end":3251.547,"text":"那我是提案人那这个议题呢我们在上一个会期的时候其实呢蓝绿都有讨论过那当时提案人是我们的翁晓琳翁委员那我们也针对这个议题呢大家都有进行了非常的细致的讨论然后呢还有很多的过程"},{"start":3252.348,"end":3273.706,"text":"那最后呢是提出了一份的临时提案那呢当时的退府会也认为说他们要尽量的来争取恢复退役上校以上的子女补助费好所以呢当退府会说他们要争取的时候呢我们就用临时提案的方式那希望能够增加但是最后呢我们在预算上面是没有看到这一笔的"},{"start":3274.346,"end":3294.5,"text":"所以就变成是说如果我们没有把它入法的话呢基本上不管我们要怎么样争取然后写了临时提案那最后都没有争取成功所以我相信退府会对于这一条就是呢恢复退役上校子女补助费本身是支持的那只是可能在入法上面他们可能是有压力的"},{"start":3295,"end":3312.527,"text":"但是呢如果說我們沒有把它入法的話那就會變成就會變成又來了就是呢我們有了臨時提案我們有了很多的質詢然後最後呢什麼都沒有所以我希望把它入法的原因就是因為只有寫在法律上面那你才必須要編列這樣子的預算"},{"start":3314.988,"end":3330.754,"text":"讓軍人能夠真正的了解說這些福利已經能夠進到他的口袋裡面所以既然藍綠白對於這個子女上下補助費以及我們的行政官員本質上面都是同意的那把它入法我覺得是非常合情合理的事情 以上接下來我們請機關代表說明"},{"start":3336.956,"end":3344.073,"text":"來 先說明身份趙偉好 各位委員 大家午安我是退府會的退出起步處的處長盧馬可"},{"start":3345.526,"end":3374.585,"text":"在這邊針對國民黨黨團提案新增輔導條例增訂第27條之二的條文那退伍會的意見報告如下第一點本會基於照顧榮民袍澤精神自107年1月29日起歷任主委以7次報請行政院恢復上校街領奉人員子女教育補助費本會支持及爭取本項補助之立場從未改變"},{"start":3375.566,"end":3397.923,"text":"第二點本會為行政團隊之一員本案經協調行政院人事總署表示退休人員子女教育補助需通盤研議軍公教朝一致性做法辦理並兼顧軍公教的恆平性本會支持照顧軍公教退休人員之政策"},{"start":3398.706,"end":3411.804,"text":"是軍公教一致性做法研議完成後本會恢復本項子女教育補助以彰顯政府全面照顧軍公教退休人員在職服務期間對國家社會的貢獻以上報告"},{"start":3422.042,"end":3439.054,"text":"本日协商第二个主题本宴国民党党团凝聚国军退出一官兵辅导条例增订的第二十七条之二条文朝案因为无法取得共识本案我们就保留送行院长协商"},{"start":3445.427,"end":3454.255,"text":"我們今天有提出兩個修正動議我想應該也要跟大家說明一下看大家桌面上都有修正動議的內容我來說明一下第一個是在修正動議裡面本來寫的是"},{"start":3461.741,"end":3475.876,"text":"義務役現役軍人薪額月支數額由國防部擬定報請行政院核定那本來呢是寫前項薪額月支數額不得低於最低法定工資之最低工資喔那但是呢我們發現說這樣可能會產生一些問題所以呢我們寫的是改成是叫做期待預總額也就是說呢他"},{"start":3483.223,"end":3500.94,"text":"整個它整個全部加起來呢是不能超過基本工資的所以呢它可能有比如說加給或等等之類都算在這個基本工資以內所以呢我們這裡寫的是期待率的總額來這邊做一個修正那才會符合我們真正想要提案的原意"},{"start":3501.46,"end":3531.08,"text":"那第二个修正动义呢是在第七里面这个第七第五条的第七项里面的超时加级那本来呢我们写的是对于例价有应修而未修者加几支那我们改成呢对于各类修价有应修而未修加几支这样子的写法呢我觉得呢可能我们会比较精准所以呢我们基本上是针对文字做一些修正让它呢能够比较精准那不会有太多的争议以上说明"},{"start":3531.62,"end":3556.082,"text":"好 謝謝那現在是我們繼續進行協商第三個主題本院國民黨黨團以及本院委委員林倩琦等二十人分別凝聚金人待遇條例第五條條文修正草案請各位參與關西文書以及條文對照表主要是新增加擠項目那現在有一件修正動議請議事組而言先讀"},{"start":3560.918,"end":3583.53,"text":"程旭 程旭 那個第二案的結果還沒有講所以就進入到第三案了 是不是可以先就第二案的部分沒有 剛剛已經過了 已經宣讀了我們保留啦 保留第二案直接宣讀保留 對對對對但是宣讀保留的意思不是無法停留公司 到大會 到大會對 但是我們還沒有發言沒有 剛剛沒有舉手就已經宣讀啦 對對對"},{"start":3587.702,"end":3599.434,"text":"是啊,對,那就保留到宴會裡面再做發言好了好,那我,那等一下我們要繼續,因為建籍委員也是提案人嘛然後他完了之後我要針對第三案發言好,那請議事人員先讀"},{"start":3604.895,"end":3631.202,"text":"修正動議軍人待遇條例第五條條文修正動議第五條第一項第一款至第四款通信行法條文增訂第五款至第七款分別為五志願役加給對志願投入軍旅者每月新台幣三萬元加給之六戰鬥部隊加給對戰鬥部隊或戰鬥資源部隊加給之七超時加給對各類休假有應休而未休者加給之"},{"start":3632.282,"end":3654.938,"text":"修正第二項前項第五款外各種加擠之給予有行政院定之第三項第一項所列之加擠發放數額與中央主計機關發布之消費者物價指數累積成長率達30%應與適度調整提案人委員徐巧欣陳永康黃忍等委員等委員宣讀完畢"},{"start":3658.993,"end":3664.718,"text":"接下來由提案人國民黨黨團李倩琦有沒有發言本席針對軍人待遇條例第五條條文修正這邊來做一些說明我們現在知道國防在面臨的挑戰不是只有傳統戰爭的樣態也涵蓋了非對稱作戰灰色地帶的衝突跟科技戰爭的全面升級"},{"start":3682.173,"end":3694.584,"text":"那國軍官兵呢特別是第一線的戰鬥跟戰鬥支援的角色也越來越吃重已經不像以前那樣基層的執行者而是很重要的要快速應變跟現代作戰轉型的一個關鍵戰力那也因為這個結構轉變呢這個修正呢最主要是針對戰鬥家級的法制化"},{"start":3702.208,"end":3720.259,"text":"不僅是補償也是針對我們未來戰略性人力支配的一個未來人力資源配置的一個表現首先我們先談談國防是一個公共財的一個核心命題的話這種公共財的可持續性最重要的要仰賴專業的軍事人員作為基礎"},{"start":3722.72,"end":3726.482,"text":"然後現今高風險的職業薪資補償也已經因應市場變動而提升消防警察醫護等領域都非常的明顯那這個危險加急與津貼制度軍人那尤其是戰鬥部隊的人員面對的風險是很實質的"},{"start":3740.871,"end":3766.658,"text":"譬如說彈藥操作、特戰訓練、高空跳傘等等那它的整個心理性跟戰備性的隱性壓力其實很難在待遇中被反應得清楚所以這不僅是有一點違反了公平的原則那制度上也有一點削弱了戰力持續跟人力穩定的一個根基那第二個部分是兵力結構的角度來看呢當前國軍 我們現在是募兵制"},{"start":3767.478,"end":3777.265,"text":"那志願役士官兵是部隊的一個主體但是立法院掌握的國防部的數據呢多數戰鬥單位常態性的邊線比只有八成那麼顯示基層人力其實有面臨招募困難流財補益的雙重困境這跟我們剛才講的東西有點呼應也造成這樣一個困境的根源所以我們在戰鬥單位長期缺乏額外誘因的補償機制"},{"start":3794.958,"end":3798.98,"text":"那也使得志願役人員多傾向選擇職務相對比較輕鬆然後職癌相對比較穩定的後勤或者是文職的編組那這使得軍中目前的這個結構有點重戰鬥親勤務的職業結構產生跟實職產生很大的落差"},{"start":3813.887,"end":3829.734,"text":"接下來一點是我們在軍事 區域軍事衝突熱點的第一線無論是中共對台軍事壓力的升高然後灰色地帶的操作非常的頻繁像無人機 還有一些認知戰或者是海空域快速升級的實戰的風險戰鬥部隊都是第一線面臨的日常就像作戰一樣的勤務實況"},{"start":3835.797,"end":3863.672,"text":"也不是傳統條例能夠適用跟保障的所以如果沒有具體或制度化的獎勵加擠也不利於年輕人在投入軍旅那也使得資深人員會有一些退役所以戰鬥加擠的制度化可以在這樣一個背景上來發揮功效那至少也緩衝了我們前線的一些壓力所以戰鬥加擠的路法會帶給行政的執行跟預算管理比較有規範然後也會有一些效益"},{"start":3864.292,"end":3866.935,"text":"不會像剛才也有委員這邊提到的那好幾次的提出那臨時性的這沒有辦法成為常態那誘因也不足所以部隊內部對於戰鬥單位官兵的補貼跟加急大多是透過臨時性的專案如剛才所講的"},{"start":3879.927,"end":3901.967,"text":"還有機關內部標準的實施這樣有點不穩定所以缺乏法律基礎的透明性也導致基層常常會有同工不同酬那單位間的一個標準不一的制度的不公平現象所以我們如果把它法制化之後行政院會明定相關的發放標準那在制度落實的一個規範與待遇會一致讓國軍人員對待遇可以預期"},{"start":3905.971,"end":3925.709,"text":"也可以強化這個政策信念跟職癌的安全感那戰鬥家籍的法制化有一種象徵性跟很重要的文化意涵那它是國家向士兵致敬的制度性表現那尤其是那些選擇站在第一線用身體直接為國家擋住子彈的青年是最務實也最直接的"},{"start":3926.269,"end":3943.598,"text":"那這樣的一個修正不僅提升可以提升我們整個戰鬥部隊內部的士氣那也可以在整個社會當中樹立軍人榮譽的正向形象那也對於全民國防的意識跟社會對從軍人員的尊重跟支持以上 謝謝"},{"start":3946.464,"end":3958.05,"text":"針對第三個主題本院國民黨黨團及本院委員林倩熙等二十人分別臨時軍人待遇條例第五條條文修正草案那我們請我們民進黨團沈博洋委員"},{"start":3961.633,"end":3982.495,"text":"好那這個我針對第三案第二案我就不說朋友剛剛沒有聽到這個第二案的這個結束那不過我覺得第二案它的特色就是它至少是在我們上一次這個在做這個組決議的這個過程當中一直在辯論到底要把線畫在中校還是畫在上校所以呢但是其他的這幾個案子就是剛剛講的第一案還有像這一個這個"},{"start":3983.616,"end":4001.747,"text":"五條跟第六條的修正案這個真的都應該去委員會討論我覺得這個在委員會這個禁覆二讀當然這不是趙薇的問題但就是說尤其是現在這個是有院版的那有院版的狀況之下呢剛剛其實小新委員也有提到幾個這個他有認同的地方跟不認同的地方那這些其實都應該能夠在委員會都被辯論"},{"start":4004.208,"end":4020.635,"text":"然後再把它放到這一邊我們就比較能夠聚焦那這邊我是提另外幾個點就是說呢因為其實我們對於原來的條文還沒有討論完畢但是這個再修正東西就已經出來了那因為裡面有幾個在法律上的問題因為這第五條我們現在是把這一個所謂的這個戰鬥加擠然後還有這一個"},{"start":4024.206,"end":4048.605,"text":"這個超時把它變成戰鬥部隊加級跟這個超時把它變成這樣的一個種類那因為就是原本的這一個志願役的加級跟戰鬥部隊的加級我看國防部的報告也有寫到就是已經本來在這個志願役勤務加級的規定所以在法律上這個認定增訂這個項目這樣的一個法律問題我覺得應該是要被解決那另外就是因為超時它真的是屬於補償金的性質這個我在報告中也有看到"},{"start":4049.025,"end":4073.496,"text":"所以如果它是補償金的性質的話它跟這個加擠的定義其實是不同的所以在法律上是否應該適合和定在這一邊這其實是有疑義但說真的這個如果說我覺得這個變成協商的一個主題的話其實變得有點奇怪因為它就只是一個在法律上定義它應該要放在哪一個法條等等之類的問題但因為你一旦進入了協商你就只有特定的法條你也不可能再把另外的辦法或法律現在帶進來因為它並沒有在原來排的這一個"},{"start":4076.657,"end":4094.31,"text":"議程裡面所以我還是再講一次這個那麼如此重要的事情然後呢又跟這一個所謂的這一個預算的增加有關係那剛剛這個小新聞也有提到就是說呢我們有這一個超收但是在預算法裡面這個超收它是有特定的用途它可能拿來還債啊什麼等等之類的不太能夠因為"},{"start":4095.191,"end":4118.241,"text":"用這樣的一個方式我們就說那我們現在切一部分出來然後來做這一個的增加那剛建行我有提到其實我們的軍人的待遇啊等等之類應該給他有更多的信心啊榮譽啊但我說真的就是說除了這個我們一直以來對於福利的部分對於保險還有對於這個薪資的部分有討論之外其實真正的能夠讓他們有信心的應該是讓他們在作戰的時候他們應該要有更好的一些裝備"},{"start":4119.942,"end":4146.221,"text":"然後呢有更好的這些業務執行的一個費用所以呢如果說我們今天在這個總預算的時候呢去動之了這一些項目然後現在又說呢我們要來大量的增加這個待遇其實說真的這整個修法的還有這個從總預算會期一直到現在這其實是彼此矛盾啦那但這個我就不多說我還是希望因為這個在立法例上面其實有點問題尤其是在這個超時的部分還有在我剛剛講到的就"},{"start":4146.661,"end":4162.82,"text":"跟這個志願疫情務加緊這個規定裡面矛盾的部分這個法律的部分其實應該要被解決但是因為我看現在民眾黨的現在也不在了所以我看這個協商應該就是過水而已但是我還是把這個意見發表完畢 謝謝好 接下來我們請機關代表說明"},{"start":4167.919,"end":4190.172,"text":"主席各位委員我是國防部資源規劃司司長其實有關於國民黨團提案有關於軍人待遇條例的一個修正草案國防部的意見如下第一個就是為了提升志願役官兵的薪資待遇其實行政院已經核定了志願役的勤務加給跟戰鬥部隊加給的調整方案在今年的4月1號施行那依目前黨團的一個版本"},{"start":4190.752,"end":4214.847,"text":"支援一家籍調高了三萬元其實會增加了大幅增加了一個預算的支出這個部分需要整體考量政府的一個財政第二點有關於就是軍人待遇的部分其實依軍人待遇條例它的立法體力它的待遇包含了本縫跟家籍家籍的部分又按它的職務種類性質跟服務地區分別區分為"},{"start":4216.589,"end":4237.21,"text":"職務加擠、專業加擠、勤務加擠跟地域加擠所謂的志願役加擠跟戰鬥部隊加擠它其實都屬於勤務加擠的一環而且目前的志願役加擠跟戰鬥部隊加擠它已經在志願役勤務加擠中有訂定明確的一個數額所以還沒有必要把它另行拉出來訂定一個法定的一個項目"},{"start":4238.351,"end":4258.937,"text":"另外超时加给其实它基本上是属于应休假而未休假的一个补助它的性质是属于补偿金的一个或是一个补助的性质它跟加给它必须是定期定额的给予这个定义不一样所以把它直接列为是加给中的一环在法律的适用上可能会有汉格的一个情形"},{"start":4259.657,"end":4281.169,"text":"另外就是有关于基本薪资的一个部分其实依照行政院核定的一年期一物一的基本薪资照今年3%的调薪它的月支数额加上政府补助的提缴的比如说主赋时费健康保险退休金它的总待遇金额已经是30374元已经高于目前的最低的基本工资28590元"},{"start":4287.492,"end":4300.246,"text":"那另外有關於定期調薪的一個部分其實這個部分行政院每年都會參酌經濟的成長率平均的國民所得消費者物價指數民間企業的一個薪資水準還有政府的財政狀況統一對軍公教的薪資來進行調整"},{"start":4304.47,"end":4305.331,"text":"還是跟各位委員報告一下"},{"start":4325.031,"end":4343.353,"text":"把戰鬥部隊加級單純拉出來這樣是不通的啦因為我們現在有十幾項的加級每一個的加級都放在除了剛剛提到的原來法律明定的職務加級地域加級志願役加級之外呢我們就是有一個"},{"start":4344.554,"end":4369.358,"text":"勤務家級那這個勤務家級裡面有很多種比如說隨便講他有空降空投家級等等這些每個部隊都很重要那你現在把一個單純的戰鬥部隊家級把它拉出來事實上這個家級你沒有寫進一定的數字這個數字還是要我們兼顧這個所有家級的橫平性然後我們會來考量啊那你把戰鬥部隊家級單純拉出來那其他的家級呢"},{"start":4370.319,"end":4392.976,"text":"我們有十幾種加擠,那你要每一個都要把它拉出來嗎這我覺得這樣子還是請各位委員考量一下雖然我知道也許我們講了也沒有用就是說還是會送這個宴會鞋子但是要請委員看這個考量我們沒有辦法能夠接受是單獨的戰鬥部隊加擠把它拉出來那所有其他網路戰加擠不重要嗎?戰航管加擠不重要嗎?"},{"start":4393.416,"end":4410.416,"text":"那每一個部隊都非常的重要在我們國防部的立場來看每一個都很重要你不能單獨的戰鬥部隊加級把它拉出來那事實上單獨拉出來的意義在哪裡我不是很清楚那另外我也要說明一下志願役加級是要多少這件事情"},{"start":4413.578,"end":4435.45,"text":"這個應該是不適宜入法的你把他定死說這個資源加息是多少錢這件事情我在立法例上面我還沒有看過說把資源加息單獨說明列是多少錢這個我覺得是已經已經逾越了這個立法跟行政的分際啦這個我想是不宜的我還是肯定的跟各位委員做一個報告以上"},{"start":4436.49,"end":4456.8,"text":"謝謝郭部長的這個發言那本日協商第三個主題本院國民黨黨團以及本院委員林倩琦等二十人分別凝聚金人單一條例第五條條文修正草案那既然無法取得共識這兩個草案及修正動議一併保留我們就並按送請院長協商"},{"start":4462.011,"end":4475.969,"text":"那另外接下來進行協商第四個主題本院國民黨黨團民進軍人代議條例第六條條文修正草案請各位參議院關係文書以及條文對照表主要是義務這個現役這個"},{"start":4480.285,"end":4493.145,"text":"義務役現役金人薪額業之數額不得低於最低工資法所定之最低工資那現在有一個修正動議請議事人員先讀"},{"start":4495.646,"end":4519.524,"text":"局員待遇條例第六條條文修正動議第六條義務役現役軍人薪額月資數額由國防部擬定報請行政院核定其待遇總額不得低於最低工資法所定之最低工資體驗人委員許巧欣陳永康黃仁等委員宣讀完畢那首先我們請提案的國民黨黨團代表發言"},{"start":4524.856,"end":4534.1,"text":"謝謝謝謝主席那這個部分呢是因為就是剛才大家有講嘛就是在我們的薪資算法裡面有包含是專業佳績啊等等等等加在一起之後呢他會變成這個21350元嘛那所以呢為了他讓他不要超過"},{"start":4539.202,"end":4559.234,"text":"所以我们是用改成用期待率总额也就是说所有的加起来之后呢不得超过基本工资但是呢他会是基本工资用这样子的方式呢才能够横平让他的这个薪资上面的是可以有一致性的所以我们用这个期待率总额来取代原本的这个写法谢谢"},{"start":4563.642,"end":4582.569,"text":"什麼人周圍發言我知道這個現在不在所以這是一個過水但我還是再發表一下意見就是說等一下可能王博可不可以說明一下就是說現行的這一個金額跟這個最低工資的這一個差別我覺得這是第一個"},{"start":4583.189,"end":4609.811,"text":"那第二個呢剛剛顧部長也有提到就是說把金額這樣寫死在法律裡面並不是一個正常的立法例那但是我覺得這一個條文相較於剛剛第五條它至少是一個比較能夠聚焦因為它就是一個比較它就是一個修正然後直接直指說這個不能夠低於最低工資法那如果說這一個這個畢竟是個行政立法的分界那這個行政立法的分界在過去一整年來已經被破壞殆盡了所以呢"},{"start":4610.271,"end":4622.465,"text":"我現在再講一次說這一個到底是這個違法還這個違反這個預算法的一個說法還是違憲其實我覺得已經沒有太大的一個意義所以我就不過還是發表一下意見謝謝好接下來我們請機關代表說明"},{"start":4625.311,"end":4643.407,"text":"主席各位委員國防部我想再次報告一下就是剛剛提到那個基本工資的問題那我現在報告就是說其實依照行政院核定的114年的就是他是義務二兵就是最低階的義務二兵他的待遇的總額其實已經到了30374元已經高於114年的勞工的最低的基本工資28590元以上報告"},{"start":4650.952,"end":4664.11,"text":"本日協商第四個主題本院國民黨黨團凝聚金人待遇條例第六條條文修正草案因為無法取得共識本案及修正動議一併保留我們就送請院長協商"},{"start":4670.253,"end":4688.981,"text":"本日協商共有四個主題因為無法取得共識以及草案我們就請送請院長協商後期依立法院執行刑事法第十二章相關規定辦理今天謝謝各黨團代表的出席本日協商會議到此結束謝謝 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大家好今天"},{"start":2164.636,"end":2176.903,"text":"大院第11屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開全體委員會議太陽撐腰列席報告深感榮幸有關專題報告長照2.0執行情形檢討及3.0未來規劃及"},{"start":2182.566,"end":2210.479,"text":"澳洲進口豬腳驗出含萊克多巴胺如何加強肉品食安查驗讓民眾安心敬請參列書面報告以下向各位委員摺要說明首先針對長照2.0執行情形檢討部分長照2.0在公司力公司協力積極推動下已有具體進展長照經費長照照顧人力服務人數服務涵蓋率及長照據據點"},{"start":2213.045,"end":2218.227,"text":"數皆有顯著成長相較於105年經費成長了為17倍達879億人力成長近4倍達10萬421人服務人數成長為8.4倍達75.7萬人服務涵蓋率成長4.2倍達84.86%"},{"start":2236.611,"end":2264.242,"text":"據點成長為20.9倍達15,000處出院準備銜接長照服務之服務效率由平均51天降至4天個案整體服務滿意度達9成針對長照服務強化部分強化縣市督導管理機制輔導服務提供輔導服務提供單位提升服務品質擴增長照服務量能"},{"start":2264.744,"end":2280.011,"text":"提升住宿機構品質多元充實照護能力此外本部應用不同媒體通路持續強化一律多照顧照顧是專業的觀念宣傳其引發民眾共感"},{"start":2280.931,"end":2289.219,"text":"藉以翻轉民眾照顧觀念提高其對長照服務的認識及使用意願其次,針對3.0未來規劃部分124年3月13日行政院第3943次會議決定"},{"start":2297.006,"end":2316.13,"text":"提前自明115年期推動長照3.0計畫本部將與相關部會各地方政府持續合作共同推動長照3.0計畫在2.0以人為本以社區為基礎連續照顧的基礎下以健康促進"},{"start":2317.393,"end":2340.132,"text":"醫療照顧整合、積極互能、提升機構量能強化家庭支持、導入智慧照顧、落實安寧善中及人力專業發展等八大目標打造居家、社區、機構、醫療、社福聯繫性的醫照整合服務本部將結合社會各界力量推動長照3.0"},{"start":2342.054,"end":2368.055,"text":"达成赖总统国家希望工程扩大社会投资减轻家庭负担及强化医疗照顾衔接打造健康台湾的实证目标长寿3.0计划将持续增加服务据点和内容给予家庭照顾者和长照机构更多的支持并结合医疗和社会福利提升对失能者的照顾"},{"start":2369.17,"end":2395.803,"text":"其達成長照3.0、健康老化、在地安老、安寧善終的願景最後針對澳洲進口豬腳驗出含萊克多巴胺如何加強熱品食安查驗讓民眾放心部分本部在食安優先的前提下透過科學分析定定安全且合理的豬牛產品相關管理規範"},{"start":2397.028,"end":2406.449,"text":"牛豬產地標示規範經一體適用於國產及輸入產品並持續依食安法執行邊界食品"},{"start":2408.139,"end":2433.658,"text":"輸入查驗 查驗結果符合規定後 使得輸入豬肉儀錶板是本部一直秉持檢驗結果的透明揭露 讓民眾安心所有放行產品都在科學分析下可接受奉獻未來也持續依食安優先科學分析 國際標準及市場稽查辦理本部持續抽驗市售的"},{"start":2435.193,"end":2457.209,"text":"國產及進口的豬牛肉產品檢驗乙型瘦體素含萊克多巴胺以及茶核原產地標示茶核範圍包括國產及進口產品茶核違規及依法採取以維護民眾知的權益並提升國人對市售食品的信任"},{"start":2458.05,"end":2470.978,"text":"以上為本部針對本次專題報告提出簡料說明感謝各位委員指教及監督在此靜置謝陳並請各位委員繼續予以支持以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝部長那有關本次會議各項"},{"start":2480.638,"end":2508.025,"text":"書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在我們開始巡打 做以下宣告本會委員巡打時間8分鐘 內席委員4分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如果書面質詢 請於上位前提出 預期不受理暫定10點半左右 休息10分鐘迎折上11點半處理臨時提案11點截止登記好 現在我們請第一位委員陳昭芝發言"},{"start":2513.933,"end":2516.315,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩邱部長部長委員長 部長早 民進黨政府長期以來一直非常的驕傲說我們進口的這個豬就是裡面擔心有來他非常的驕傲說我們長期都是零檢出那當然再次破功部長你有信任嗎 你剛正談也很久了一直在強調我們是零檢出嘛"},{"start":2544.073,"end":2570.22,"text":"對不對我總質詢質詢這個剛開始這個陳建仁院長的時候他們也說都一直零檢出嘛就是過去都是這樣引以為榮嘛這次就是破功部長我要請問你被檢出這個就沒有檢出萊克多巴胺是不是表示這隻豬沒有被餵來豬沒有被餵來呢你可以這樣推論嗎沒有檢出是表示他源頭沒有餵這個萊克多巴胺嗎"},{"start":2571.175,"end":2588.32,"text":"你的分業認知呢不一定因為他有參流的一個時間嘛對好就是說當時我也希望食藥署不要一直說台灣沒有萊豬你只是檢驗不出來他源頭是有未來的因為我們法是允許的這是第二個我要跟部長講的"},{"start":2589.46,"end":2618.635,"text":"那多數台灣人是不想要吃萊豬為什麼因為我看過很多影片啊那個民進黨的委員啊包括柯董昭啊什麼蕭美琪當時他們都一直喊我們都要零減豬我們絕不吃萊這表示為什麼他們在反映民意民意是不想要吃萊不管他的這個知識或想法是從以來這是一個沒有辦法改變的這個部分但是這次非常諷刺的是這次是從"},{"start":2619.395,"end":2644.846,"text":"澳豬澳洲來的豬驗出來但是長期那個美豬到目前並沒有驗出對嗎是不是情況是這樣這次驗出來是從澳洲進口的豬以前所有檢查過的都沒有嘛就這次破功但是是從這個只有這三批我沒有在談法律啦我知道江署長你談的是什麼但是我不懂啊如果官方說這是合格的"},{"start":2645.726,"end":2656.899,"text":"然後不需要有流向的告知那為什麼業者他要出來道歉又把他銷毀呢我很怕看到這種場景我一生沒有見識過這個場景官方說你OK然後你出來銷毀又道歉這個發生什麼事呢"},{"start":2661.024,"end":2673.661,"text":"不然這發生什麼事情呢第一個謝謝委員我簡單簡單的回答食安優先這個永遠都是我們不變的真理但是我們會依法嘛依法就是用不然你不覺得很奇怪依法啊OK啊為什麼業者那麼害怕"},{"start":2677.906,"end":2696.421,"text":"那我們尊重業者自主的一個做法跟要求但是我們一切都是按照規定來做我們有守護安全的把關那部長我再問一件事為什麼不公布我當然有看到這個江署長的理由為什麼不"},{"start":2697.081,"end":2721.79,"text":"國人沒有權利知道我吃的東西有沒有來嗎這是第一個你不公佈第二個我要再講蔡政府是如何信誓旦旦的說教育部也跟著發出非常嚴格的一個指令就是說所有的萊豬不准進校園那你現在碰到這個狀況你怎麼知道他不進校園你能保證嗎那還是說他們以前的承諾你要翻頁不管了反正是已經換過人當總統了"},{"start":2724.335,"end":2728.118,"text":"怎麼辦?要不要進校園?我們都一體適用的啦那是不是這個部分請署長回答一下你還沒有就任,但是蔡政府承諾過啊還是同一個執政黨啊"},{"start":2737.328,"end":2755.286,"text":"謝謝委員這邊做簡單的說明就是說萊克多巴胺在我們的用藥裡面動物用藥裡面其實是千千百百種的一種所以每一種其實都經過了食品安全風險評估下來訂下來訂完之後它如果是合於標準的"},{"start":2755.726,"end":2769.772,"text":"我們依法上面對於他的揭露其實對廠商的不利你新上任然後你依法去做事我這次沒有就是但是我要告訴你過去整個政治氛圍不是這樣請部長您好好看這張表左邊這張表圖是2022年行政院的圖卡他為了澄清事實請看中間那個點因為網路說很多國家的萊要進來了萊豬進來但是他說請看紅字只有美國萊豬會進口到"},{"start":2785.154,"end":2790.598,"text":"台灣然後他還做了圖卡行政院的圖卡加拿大出口的豬肉不函來紐西蘭從沒進口澳洲國內生產幾乎不用來進口總量是微乎其微那美國有數字好"},{"start":2800.544,"end":2815.575,"text":"就是說這是行政院寫的圖卡結果現在我們發現不是只有美國萊豬進來澳洲也進來那我可不可以說這四年前五年前行政院說謊說謊成性這個是行政院的圖卡為了查核事實啊"},{"start":2817.813,"end":2831.501,"text":"部長你有看過這個圖齁?也是一樣喔我告訴你不要給我想要翻頁喔還是同一個執政黨在同一個黨在執政喔委員這邊我可以做簡單的回覆因為全世界可以使用萊豬萊特多巴胺在當年有266國有"},{"start":2834.203,"end":2861.721,"text":"20個國家領悟的部分是有6個國家其中呢來到台灣台灣我們進口裡面可以允許他進口的國家裡面豬肉的其實是有6個國家那等一下停下來包括美國、加拿大、澳洲、紐西蘭、韓國你給我們事實但是我追究的是政治承諾這張圖卡是2020年行政院給國人用的而且他還是為了說網友的一些不實的傳和他用事實來講這張圖卡你可以去查"},{"start":2863.642,"end":2881,"text":"他告訴我們的事實不是這樣啊你再看右邊你看蘇貞昌院長信誓旦旦啊為茶廠不給進口就是說需要我國派員赴美茶廠後才可以進口那我想問一下請問石耀署你有沒有去澳洲茶廠這邊跟委員就進入報告因為澳洲是在"},{"start":2889.198,"end":2908.444,"text":"100年以前在經濟部管理的前提之下就已經進來了他已經約定俗成的歷史上他就是已經是既然是安全的那沒關係你現在事務官你沒辦法回答我們未來可以我們未來可以機器人案發蘇貞昌信誓旦旦說沒茶場不能進來那為什麼美豬要茶場那個澳洲"},{"start":2909.204,"end":2926.496,"text":"不用查場的我們去查我們在官網上沒有看到你們有到澳洲去查場的記錄啊沒有啊但是他說的啊說得非常清楚當年是這樣子的那我要再告訴你一件很嚴重的事美國一定會把美牛美豬當作談判的籌碼就非關稅貿易障礙的部分那美國會跟我們講啊為什麼他們美國進來的豬要查場為什麼澳洲進來的豬不用查場為什麼雙重標準"},{"start":2936.343,"end":2939.404,"text":"為什麼在國際上 這個一定是弱點 談判的弱點謝謝委員的提醒因為我們整體對於兩國國一國之間的貿易在我們新的規定之前它就已經是正常在進口的狀況所以你看你國內是騙人的你國內明明告訴我們只有美國來都會進口現在你看到澳洲來不管你合不合格"},{"start":2963.408,"end":2980.634,"text":"就是跟圖卡不一樣,行政院,不然你就從做一張新的圖卡你不要騙人,當時你還是會抵說人家說謊話做的圖卡,這個圖卡你沒辦法否認啊然後現在呢,現在對不對,澳洲不用查藏,美國要查藏我要死了啦,你跟川普要怎麼說,說不清楚啦好啦"},{"start":2982.352,"end":3000.464,"text":"部長好好回去看看怎麼處理這件事接下來謝謝署長我來請教長照問題台灣居家服務政策聯盟在去年提出了這個3.0的版的照顧這個一個政策的建言書希望國家能夠有更完美的完善的一個居家照顧政策當時三個政黨"},{"start":3002.805,"end":3024.546,"text":"七個委員都出席了表示說這個是大家非常重視那裡面有四個部分部長我是希望您可以看一下那個有關這個當然如果你沒有空讀我希望你的部署讀一讀然後把重點這個建言書非常的完整那第四項我今天要跟部長詢問的是第四項改善平建制度這部分我希望長照司可以好好的聽取這個意見他在裡面請你看看"},{"start":3027.248,"end":3053.809,"text":"這改善評鑑制度上面導入專家要業界專家建立社會影響力導向的評鑑模式部長很多陳情單位來跟我們說說在評鑑過程當中發生什麼事委員拍桌打斷說明質疑社工專業甚至提出跟評鑑項目無關的資料要求對現場人員冷嘲熱諷予待羞辱他們沒有辦法申訴就跑來跟在野黨的立委講話"},{"start":3056.158,"end":3065.704,"text":"怎麼會發生這種事情我們絕對不允許這樣的情況發生所以他們希望能夠導入業界專家這個跟很多評鑑一樣你不能讓專家在雲端講話你不能讓學者在雲端講話你要讓業者也進來參與這個評鑑聽聽看他講對不對這個像我們現在的共鳴會也現在都有病人專列正式已經是正式席次了還不是列席所以這個問題就出在這個地方我相信一個在雲端一個在地氣所以他們覺得很差勁"},{"start":3085.257,"end":3104.735,"text":"或是評鑑委員很傲慢就全部用罵的口吻受不了了包委員我想你也了解醫院評鑑的一個制度醫院評鑑委員其實是授信非常的嚴格我向我們政府每一個評鑑的委員都是都是當然也有迴避的機制啦但是如果說"},{"start":3106.476,"end":3114.958,"text":"問的不是那個問題,然後態度又不好,我只有這個沒有人敢檢舉啦,不用檢舉我們就要知道啊現在我給你看一下,請看一下,目前的這個老人住宿型機構它有分等老人福利機構還分從優等到甲乙丙丁,分了五個等級"},{"start":3127.261,"end":3140.691,"text":"但是法人住宿宿的長照機構跟護理之家就是合格或不合格當然如果特別表現優的90分以上又符合必要條件我們就把它列為優等我現在認知沒錯吧你現在的這個評鑑制度是不一樣的"},{"start":3142.432,"end":3152.56,"text":"既然有優甲乙丙丁等那這個出現什麼問題呢你看起來有鑑別度但實際上至少三個問題第一個制度不公嘛你同樣都是住宿式的這個長照機構那為什麼這個護理自家跟法輪長照機構他們就可以用合格或不合格那就可以繼續提供服務甚至拿到這個補助的這個計畫但是老人福利機構因為他被分了等地嘛那在一等其實還是70分啦在另外兩個就還是合格"},{"start":3172.034,"end":3186.837,"text":"但是他就拿不到他就拿不到這個甚至會影響因為他是被當作次等所以拿不到這個沒有辦法接案再回去那個圖給讓部長再看一次第二個社會觀感很惡劣"},{"start":3187.658,"end":3191.702,"text":"平建這個壓力會扭曲這個經營方向因為他可能差一分 79分就在一等80分才能到甲等平建都是這樣他開始美化那個資料圖表書面資料表格把它做美化再加一分他就回去甲等"},{"start":3204.352,"end":3224.082,"text":"那過去已等還是不準備接受這個新增公費住民那當然我也很肯定這個社家署他已經把這個規定改掉可是已等就是一個歧視的概念所以那這個背離這個政策的一致性那業界都知道平建前後他們就是離此的旺潮"},{"start":3225.122,"end":3247.748,"text":"就是會跑掉所以這個等地的評鑑會讓這個品質評估變成行政資料的比賽競賽所以民間團體我這裡要請教部長他們希望能夠一致這三件事一致因為同屬於長照同時屬於住宿型的長照機構可不可以改成合格跟不合格那麼90分以上我們還是可以保留優等"},{"start":3248.568,"end":3270.848,"text":"這樣子你不但是可以有所謂的保留標竿的獎勵也可以避免說壓縮到他們為了應付評鑑不然你知道醫院為了應付評鑑花多少時間我們都心裡有數這些機構他們要準備這個為了加一分能夠上一個級數那可以嗎你今天可以承諾說這個要一致這個是行政執行就可以做到為什麼要分開評鑑"},{"start":3272.349,"end":3292.256,"text":"謝謝委員寶貴的建議我想這個部分我請理事長簡單簡要回答說未來的改進非常感謝委員的關心我想這個方向是對的那個之前其實我們但是現在修老扶法那我跟委員報告我們現在目前已經在研擬那你方向是不是往這個方向對沒錯我們就往這個方向我覺得委員這個建議非常好"},{"start":3294.117,"end":3307.645,"text":"如果你同意的話因為很多機構是在這樣等因為之前那個像我有到那個黃秀芳委員他們有一個方向是這樣就好了我們就是我找一個方向好不好我知道時間有事不好意思那最後我要跟大家看請大家看一下那個長照杯哥這個從2.0到1.02.0到3.0現在是要進步了但是長照杯哥依然持續發生老人受暴的這個"},{"start":3316.57,"end":3333.501,"text":"受到受暴力 受暴的通報這5年增加了5成增加了這個5成而且是來自直系血親啊 配偶等等就是說不同身份的照顧人或相對人都一直在增加那根據這個中華民國家庭照顧者關懷總會他們統計他們只能看報紙統計報紙揭發他才能統計2024年有8件2023年有14件這個"},{"start":3341.926,"end":3366.802,"text":"上個月至少有兩件當然上個月兩件其中一件跟詐騙有關所以我是說在未來的設計上3.0你要對於照顧者的壓力還有照顧者家庭的家庭暴力這個部分可是我怎麼查你都沒有琢磨你就是說下一張這個圖我現在看到你們所有的新聞稿所有公開資訊都沒有對這一點提出改善方案"},{"start":3367.762,"end":3373.954,"text":"就是長哨杯哥的這個部分搞不好你們有更多更真實的資料因為這個他們的統計是根據報紙的報導"},{"start":3377.065,"end":3397.878,"text":"那這個部分要不要納入你們的3.0的版本裡怎麼樣來改善包委員 我們這個部分 委員講得很好那我們這部分是在社安網 社安網裡面其實有關於老人疏忽的辨識工具我們這邊會來加速推動還是要注意這件事 這個是大家看了都很難過啦一定 當然好 謝謝兩位 謝謝主席謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長來 接續我們請林業勤委員質詢"},{"start":3415.101,"end":3443.426,"text":"主席有請那個呂次長好 次長市長早 委員長好市長因應我們的長照需求減輕家庭負擔我們在2017年就推動了長照10年的計畫那現在為了我們的實踐總統的建立台灣的國政願景呢事實上"},{"start":3443.922,"end":3459.215,"text":"要優化長照2.0來啟動長照3.0你們3月份也開始去做這樣子的一個討論希望摒除掉長照2.0的一些比較不OK的狀態裡邊然後能夠去優化然後來提出長照3.0"},{"start":3460.461,"end":3482.266,"text":"所以看起來不只是我覺得量的問題跟值得提升看你們報告看起來事實上是大家滿意度也非常高可是我們當然希望長照3.0可以更好的話那就想來問就是衛福部一直都沒有對社會好好說明就是說社會各界都是對長照3.0有無限美好的想像"},{"start":3483.946,"end":3504.833,"text":"可是大家也有更多的猜測至少明天團體是這樣就請問究竟什麼是長照3.0那是不是可以簡單說明我跟委員報告簡單三個重點第一個事實上就是因為賴先生自己本身也是醫生那邱部長他這邊也非常非常琢磨所以我們第一個重點事實上就是醫療與長照的結合"},{"start":3507.054,"end":3535.117,"text":"那這裡面具體來說就兩個重點第一個就是PAC就是即興後期另外第二個部分事實上就是有跟大家一計畫的導入所以這第一個重點第二個是積極賦能我們希望我們的長輩他不僅僅只是這一個長照而已而且甚至如果盡可能的話他甚至還可以改善他的整個這一個照顧等級所以賦能不光復健是賦能的部分第三個事實上就是整個所謂的我們所謂安寧善終的概念我們希望我們每位長輩"},{"start":3536.238,"end":3552.127,"text":"為我們每位被照顧的一個長輩他都能夠有一個最好的一個照顧所以簡單來說這三個重點次長你這樣講的話就是因為從你的書面報告裡面列出了八大目標嘛所以我就換個角度來問像你剛剛提的"},{"start":3555.77,"end":3575.428,"text":"這到底是不是你的政策亮點 因為我覺得從巴拉目標裡面去看勉強如果講亮點的話就導入智慧照顧跟落實安寧善終之外可是你剛剛講大家醫這些那這是不是你長照3.0的政策亮點嗎或者你現在可不可以講說 具體你們的政策亮點是什麼"},{"start":3576.76,"end":3599.632,"text":"我也必須要跟委員報告啦因為現在目前就是我們現在目前整個的計畫都已經送到行政院那行政院現在目前我們在等待他的這個核定但是如果說我現在可以透露的話主要就是委員剛剛所說的就是剛剛說的大嘉義計畫裡面因為我們現在也會非常重要是希望就是說我們的照顧能夠盡可能的也能夠提供到居家"},{"start":3600.372,"end":3625.217,"text":"所以我們到時候像部長他是就是大家一計畫裡面我們有關於那個有關居家照顧的這部分還有像是崇良市署長他一直都在推動有關HAH的這一個部分我們去年也已經推動了這一個在來急症照護在這個基礎上面我們會來來往就是整個這一個居家的這一個的這一個醫療照顧的部分來推動"},{"start":3627.997,"end":3634.304,"text":"因為在有限的裁員底下勢必要集中資源來擴大服務對象避免重複的開銷然後那個"},{"start":3636.957,"end":3660.303,"text":"同時也可以增加服務項目所以達到1加1等於2的效果這是市政的ABC那所以民間大也是期待就是說醫療跟社福接下來方向長照應該是說醫療跟社福是不是可以整合在社區裡邊那當然我們更希望擴大服務對象兒少老夫這樣是不是可以都納入所以我覺得長照是不是可以去整合到居家社區跟醫療社福"},{"start":3662.062,"end":3684.967,"text":"甚至連續性照顧的服務來擴大服務對象再增加服務項目所以我就要問市長這邊想問的是首先原本整合的事實上是我們的身障跟腸整合進去所以那個身障的服務那同時我們也看到這兩個服務但事實上是某些部分類似的項目可以互相替代可是"},{"start":3685.563,"end":3699.466,"text":"像居家服務跟個住可是實務上卻有我們現在就最近是收到一些案子就是說像成古部全鎮也就俗稱玻璃娃娃的藏友們他本身通過了ICF的鑑定"},{"start":3700.646,"end":3723.957,"text":"也就是它事實上是重度障礙的可是沒有辦法通過你們的CNS因為這個CNS評估說它是健康那就讓民眾無法理解所以我覺得本席是認為說衛福部是不是要先解決你們很多的評估CNS CDR ICF ADL IADL的各種評估相互競合的問題你怎麼做"},{"start":3727.503,"end":3751.928,"text":"這幾個這麼多的不同的那你們這邊有這麼多的那你看評估又不一樣喔那就像我剛剛講這個成果部全證一個評估說他健康一個評估說他重度腸臟那他到底可不可以用腸臟呢報告 包委員威強委員確實也點出一個重點現在目前就是說這個評估的量表非常多不過我也跟委員報告現在就是說就個案的本身而言他的病程其實在每個階段都會有他不同的這個變化"},{"start":3754.127,"end":3765.764,"text":"就是他的整個這個他的病程的發展的階段其實事實上還是 可是不會落差這麼的大因為一個評估事實上是重度產生 一個事實上是"},{"start":3766.674,"end":3788.207,"text":"健康我覺得這落差太大了但我們承認有時候病程不一樣可是他本身的狀態他本來就是玻璃瓦花那所以我覺得你們是不是要去討論一下這評估量表之間的落差度跟進口那另外就是針對於我們的身臟的日照跟長照日照整合"},{"start":3788.767,"end":3811.472,"text":"去年我就提過了照顧人員資格的問題我們有跟你們就交就是衛博部那時候表示說照顧服務人員定義要放寬納入照顧服務員 照保員跟生活服務員不去干涉各項職別的高低因為去年有發生過一些問題所以要去修正我們的長照服務人員訓練認證繼續教育跟登錄辦法請問一下進度如何"},{"start":3815.593,"end":3843.502,"text":"報告委員 我知道委員一直以來都對這個問題非常關心 那我覺得確實這是一個痛點所以我們也根據委員的一個建議 我們現在目前已經在預告我們現在目前已經進入到預告階段 那收集各方意見之後 我想我們就是委員的建議非常好 我們要朝這個方向 我們來推進因為這些人都待在機構裡面 他們真的不太一樣 他們的權益會受到損傷那另外就來問是2023年的話 平均每位照顧服務員的照顧人數是"},{"start":3844.162,"end":3850.674,"text":"平均10.8位個案合理的話事實上是5到7所以這已經超過了可是超過以外"},{"start":3851.806,"end":3874.22,"text":"你的平均喔那台北市苗栗縣雲林縣澎湖縣基隆市新竹市金門連江縣都高過平均數位所以就要想來問部長幾個問題第一個照顧產業的人事成本大概佔六成以上長照就是人力密集的產業當下人力顯然是不足的話政府怎麼去因應這個問題"},{"start":3875.1,"end":3901.53,"text":"包委員我想我們現在目前在整個3.0裡面有三個主要的策略第一個其實主要事實上還是薪資跟這一個勞動條件的一個改善第二個其實最重要事實上沒錯舉世皆然整個照顧服務其實上是一個level intensive是一個高度高度需要勞動力所以這個部分我們主要是希望未來能夠引進這個輔具就是說整個輔具的這個引進能夠來大量引來減輕他的這個他的比如說"},{"start":3902.75,"end":3928.205,"text":"對 沒錯 譬如說現在機構裡面像有關於這個洗澡機這一個的使用第三個跟委員報告我們未來會在整個這個造福園裡面我們事實上是會有分級就是說有高階 有資深 中階 低階然後未來我們也會有一個整個跟這個部分公使彼此之間一個多元的一個交錯的一個策略來解決我們現在人力的問題"},{"start":3929.085,"end":3935.769,"text":"人力事實上還有個錢的問題就是居家服務的照顧服務員的薪資目前月薪是3萬2"},{"start":3937.588,"end":3960.201,"text":"那時薪是200政府有調新的規劃嗎報告委員我們現在目前這個部分我也有心知這個我們大家都非常關心那如果財政上如果可以允許我們當然會但是現在我也必須要報告委員我們現在目前其實居福的部分我想要舉一個最簡單的數據在2.0的時候其實當時是25433我們在去年已經突破10萬"},{"start":3966.192,"end":3990.844,"text":"已經突破10萬了那這個人數增加表示就是說我也跟各位報告他在這一個2.0在1.0的時候平均薪資是25K到現在已經是4萬所以這個事實上薪資事實上是在調升當中那也也顯見就是說他事實上是一個居福事實上是一個未來有前景的一個產業是那我們這個部分意思是說現在目前就是沒還沒有規劃到這邊後邊要看財政的狀況是嗎"},{"start":3991.704,"end":4015.604,"text":"我們會透過各項的一個整個這一個機制也會在也會跟部長部長其實也非常非常關心這個部分他也一直在強調其實要讓我們的這個長照做得好其實事實上整個薪資我們在財政允許的部分我們一定會來全力來推動好的那政府鼓勵我們的住宿型機構提供長照科系的學生"},{"start":4016.144,"end":4022.615,"text":"有實習的機會來提高我們的留用率那請問取得照顧服務員資格的實習生實習過程當中"},{"start":4024.605,"end":4046.45,"text":"得以占機構人力比嗎 這件事有確定嗎我們已經確定了 在本國的這部分我們已經確定了我們也認為這個事實上是應該推動的方向如果沒有得到兆福園資格的實習生占部分人力比目前的研議狀況如何包委員這個部分恐怕就我們現在暫時覺得可能是有疑慮"},{"start":4048.49,"end":4067.053,"text":"那長遠來看的話衛福部將擴大住宿型機構的移工的聘僱人數可是蘭嶺移工的聘僱跟產業類的移工事實上是競爭人數成長有限那中階的技術人力跟在台的留學生人數也有限所以對此衛福部有什麼對策"},{"start":4067.774,"end":4091.63,"text":"包委我們就是陳虎剛剛說的我們未來那個人力裡面除了我們的這個薪資提高之外來流入本勞之外另外我們也會從新南向國家就剛剛說的中介勞動力我們會來加強引進那從去年開始已經從這個越南已經有引進那我們今年也會開始從印尼這邊那他只要在這邊服務滿6年那他就可以取得我們的永居"},{"start":4092.411,"end":4101.03,"text":"我們就要再問一個 居服員大多數是反對機構聘僱移工的衛福部對此有開放移工的規劃嗎"},{"start":4103.539,"end":4123.055,"text":"居府的部分現在目前還沒有居府的部分目前還沒有我們也知道本國我們的這個居府員他是現在這個疑慮但這部分我們當然我們只限住宿的部分而已因為住宿特別是夜間夜間人力的部分所以現在居府的這一塊沒有居府的部分我們是以目前我們現在就是本國"},{"start":4125.726,"end":4149.218,"text":"但是我跟委員報告 現在就是說 但是機構的部分確實在夜間的部分這個我想本國的這一個居服員他可能有一些偏好的問題所以這個部分我們就是優先我們會從這個外籍的中階勞動力來補儲這個部分那再來問 數數型機構量能不足沒有辦法滿足10萬人的需求"},{"start":4150.078,"end":4172.408,"text":"所以政府持續對於公社興建跟公社協力的興建機構做補助去年中旬就有從事長照服務的盈利單位股票上市這是市場自然發生的趨勢之一可是一直以來礙於老服法的三不政策住宿型機構未能納入到長照支付的對象包括"},{"start":4172.908,"end":4191.474,"text":"健保在宅醫療支付項目都受到限制所以想問衛福部面對到我們這種日漸多元的市場經營模式的話實在有必要調整以非營利為主的政策方向來建立適度的引入我們的營利機構服務量能的方法對此政府有沒有什麼樣的規劃包委員"},{"start":4192.894,"end":4210.283,"text":"其實我們在整個49床以下我們在在宅那個部分其實平時提升計畫裡面那邊我們事實上是有的這是第一跟委員說明一下那至於您剛剛所說的就是未來有關於這個機構的部分我們會未來我覺得49床其實也是我們非常重要"},{"start":4210.903,"end":4236.433,"text":"的一個未來3.0非常重要的一個省立軍因為他的加速也事實上夠多那我們未來要建構一個10分鐘照顧圈我覺得一定是這個49床以下這個機構一定要一定要一定要進來所以我們也會加強這部分的一個整個補助跟輔導好最後就請部長是不是可以針對我接下來這3.0的強烈建議希望政策方向請拜託跟人民說明清楚讓人民"},{"start":4236.897,"end":4260.572,"text":"充分的去了解 否則很多民軍團體也在猜到底你們的政策細節內容到底是什麼還有評估量表呢 相互轉換的時候這樣子的話會減少不同服務間重新評估的次數也沒有必要因為各種這麼多的量表 而且評估出來的那個最後的結果也不太一樣還有人力空缺 我覺得禁書要提出解方 沒有人力大家就沒有長照"},{"start":4261.892,"end":4283.356,"text":"移工雇主住宿型機構使用者要給予服務的公平對待還有希望你能夠建立長照制度跟營利機構之間的合作模式我想部長不知道這幾項是不是可以在一個月後大概給我一些你們後來做的做法的報告好的沒問題好謝謝部長謝謝林委員謝謝部長次長好接下來我們請陳欽慧委員質詢"},{"start":4296.526,"end":4314.392,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員 官員的出席然後請邱部長 謝謝好 部長我們先來看一個影片然後想要看您是否認同 請助理撥一下"},{"start":4316.052,"end":4332.637,"text":"五個縣市首長也發出聯合聲明呼籲禁用瘦肉精拒吃毒豬牛如果說為了當總統然後犧牲人民的健康作為交換的條件那我想乾脆不要當也罷了市民 國人都不會肯定也都不會支持"},{"start":4334.136,"end":4353.767,"text":"因為上次我們其實經過這個美國關稅的這個質詢嘛你也不斷一再的提到說國人的健康是你第一個標準所以像賴總統這樣子的態度你是不是認同也會遵守我想我非常支持當時賴總統當時所提的要照顧"},{"start":4357.603,"end":4386.127,"text":"全民的一個食安這個立場跟方向是完全正確的好那我們現在就來看一下目前國人蠻在意的幾個點上次我們有列出一個英文的官方這個提到我們台灣的非關稅壁壘有好幾項是他們在意的其中就包括標示產地嘛因為我們會希望有知的權利而且你們食安五環不斷的在強調溯源的重要性但是"},{"start":4386.667,"end":4400.168,"text":"他長期認為我們標示進口豬牛的產地就是一個目前很可能在關稅戰會談判到的一個問題那你是不是可以為我們據理力爭來守護我們國人的健康呢"},{"start":4401.291,"end":4426.801,"text":"好 守護國人的健康是我們的責任那在食安方面的方面委員隨行 我請那個署長不用不用不用 我請部長因為這個是有政治責任的所以我們還是由部長來回答上次我很幫部長還有署長說話因為關稅戰最後如果我們沒有堅守一些國人健康相關的話那是誰來負責嗎"},{"start":4428.542,"end":4454.358,"text":"因為剛總統有講到說如果為了犧牲國人健康他不做總統也罷我們上次我就有講到啦我說是談判辦公室要負責談判辦公室要下台外交部要下台總統要下台行政院長要下台還是我們的衛福部官員好 我想我們這個產地的標示不管是國內國外是一體私用的"},{"start":4455.512,"end":4481.473,"text":"所以你會在這個標示上退讓嗎因為當這個他的非關稅貿易壁壘他最強調的就是比如說以前有些角落我們不接受或者是說他希望不要再查場了那或者是說標示產地這個部分我只想知道說萬一後面我們有所退讓的話請問負起政治責任的人是誰啊"},{"start":4483.851,"end":4507.105,"text":"我想不管是哪一位政府的官員一定我們的共識就是要守護人民的食安當然最重要就是說要有一個科學的根據標示產地有什麼 標示產地而已我剛剛講得很清楚 我講的是標示產地我們有依法 而且是有法律的規定"},{"start":4509.767,"end":4514.412,"text":"一體的適用我們就按照這樣來執行這個沒有什麼退讓不退讓的問題這個都要堅持的問題"},{"start":4517.623,"end":4538.931,"text":"所以你會堅持標示產地其實大家只想知道原來的規定我們怎麼樣的規定我們原本的規定好那再來這個是非常非常多家長最近有在擔心所以我也把這個疑慮提出來我們現在少子化嘛因此每個人家裡可能只有一個小孩大部分都只有一個小孩他們非常重視營養午餐是不是"},{"start":4541.232,"end":4564.84,"text":"有知的權利還有知道是不是有選擇的權利也有很多人他們是更相信台灣的農產品那當然現在家長就會擔心啦因為我們看到說怎麼關稅團一團變成這個匯率一直台幣不斷在升值大家也覺得很害怕所以裡面有一段就在講說希望可以基改美國的這些基改食品"},{"start":4566,"end":4581.328,"text":"開放到校園營養午餐的這一點也是他們的關稅壁壘裡面那我在這邊提醒您因為這個您還記得齁四年前我們地方政府為了學校的午餐自治條例中想要訂定不得驗出以行受體"},{"start":4582.168,"end":4609.529,"text":"素還有不得使用肉品原料來源非國產之各式肉類加工品都得不到我們中央部會的支持反而要跟行政院打官司那為什麼要打官司如果你想得起來的話2020年的時候包含您在內絕對多數執政黨的席次封殺了學校衛生法第23條修正新增我剛講到的禁止使用以行獸體素還有肉品及加工品的這個條文"},{"start":4612.07,"end":4630.244,"text":"當時呢您在這邊也是跟陳時中部長一搭一唱說透過行政辦法就可以規範了結果你看關稅站他這個宣布32%以後端出來的這個官方文件裡面我們上次一起看英文的那一份他就有講到說飛機感的禁令"},{"start":4631.465,"end":4653.821,"text":"恐怕現在很多家長是怕被消失啊所以我是想問部長的立場我想問部長的立場 如果未來有其他的委員因為我現在知道藍綠白的委員都有提出關於學校營養午餐的這些版本喔都有提出版本裡面也蠻強調基改的請問你會站在什麼立場 你會跟當時的陳時中部長一樣嗎我想"},{"start":4658.484,"end":4685.552,"text":"那個不管說什麼食物我們當然就要比較各種也許他是怎麼樣做怎麼樣的方式製造的都要比較他的一個安全性這是最重要的我們用科學的方法因為這件事情我去查了美國美國兒科醫學會的說法美國兒科醫學會他說因為他沒有長期的追蹤所以這些基凱食品還沒有辦法證實對孩子有影響"},{"start":4686.172,"end":4712.228,"text":"或沒有影響但是他說有疑慮的就不要做這個選擇所以我從前面就講得很清楚了我們現在的家長在意的是透明知道有選擇而不是被硬塞那你因為身為衛生主管機關的大家長所以會不會因為外交部的關係怕這個禁令孔是被消失啊在這個議題上你可不可以跟家長們站在一起"},{"start":4714.646,"end":4729.217,"text":"我們衛福部的立場是依法除了鎖住安全以外當然就是依法行政那如果有特定的場所給予特殊的考量依舊食安法相關的規定給予限制流通我想我們行政部在衛福部這邊"},{"start":4732.619,"end":4748.043,"text":"我希望未來我們不要看到當時您跟陳時中部長說透過行政辦法就可以規範所以不需要修法這件事情也謝謝部長今天在這邊給我們的承諾再來我們要稍微問一下因為部長今年您會出席WHA嗎會的"},{"start":4750.865,"end":4767.462,"text":"我有看到你有很頻繁的在投書那我們要如何具體的讓台灣幫助到世界那目前呢這個是去年的11個友邦還有26個國家發言幫助我們嘛請問今年你有掌握嗎今年你掌握到的是會比較多會不會比較多"},{"start":4770.202,"end":4797.077,"text":"我想我們努力的會讓他更多我想非常感謝陳委員的提案去年陳委員也參加四島團在那邊一起奮鬥非常有成就讓國際間對台灣非常非常的很良好的印象我想這樣的力量 量能我們今年一定會努力好 那去年呢我有跟你做了一小段的質詢我們現在播放一下"},{"start":4799.897,"end":4825.627,"text":"因為我跟王振旭委員有去參觀醫會我有去參觀當地的醫院結果當地的醫院很多醫生告訴我們說你認不認識比如說陳世安認不認識某某某這些都是全球在某一個醫療技術上做到尖峰會列進國際教科書的人他們說假使這些台灣之光都可以跟著一起來的話所有在場的醫生都很願意去聽他們演講跟學習所以其實我們有很多東西可以跟國外分享的這也是你可以善用的資源之一因為我看我們做遊行我們這個遊行非常好"},{"start":4825.967,"end":4841.514,"text":"大家的訴求應該是一致結果你看我們的舉牌亂七八糟有這個政治性的國企然後有這個立法院的事情然後也有WHO那個很混亂啦其實外國人也搞不清楚你的訴求到底是什麼你是要建立一個國家還是你是要爭取台灣的能監督還是你要加入WHO但是既然大家都到國外就應該要團結一致"},{"start":4841.834,"end":4867.225,"text":"我覺得我們先是一定要列入在這邊來發揮我也很感謝衛福部跟外交部這次大家一起辛苦的上次有具體的給您一些建議嗎因為我們現場有很多實體活動但看來看去常常都是自己人在參加我們應該要去思考的是怎麼擴大讓別人真的主動來找我們上次我也給您很具體的建議比如說陳詩安陳詩安她創造了一個台北approach你知道解決心率不整"},{"start":4867.825,"end":4884.215,"text":"所以有至少20個國家曾經求他求他去那邊教當地的心臟醫學會改變他們自己的臨床指引然後教學所以瑞士的醫生跟我講說如果你找陳詩安來一定超多人過來聽你們演講"},{"start":4885.856,"end":4903.363,"text":"因為大家求之不得啊他要走遍所有的國家嘛然後或者是你最熟悉的陳靜心啊陳靜心救了一萬八千個肺癌的病人後來因為他救治這些病人改變了我們台灣追蹤肺腺癌的指引這些你今年來不來得及來不及你要不要明年做"},{"start":4904.603,"end":4923.228,"text":"包委員您提的建議我們真的非常謝謝肯定跟一定要這樣做我們也拜託各個專科醫學會在平常就會做好一個聯繫所以他們在這個部分幫國家做了很多那今年我們也希望要更多的人但是我們國外的理會"},{"start":4923.948,"end":4947.72,"text":"不好意思被刪了六成所以我們今年的團少了十個人十個專家所以我們去年其實是相當要什麼人才有什麼人才但是我們一定會全力來付保持去年的量能那我們還是拜託部長我希望改變的是做法"},{"start":4948.3,"end":4955.043,"text":"然後人數上雖然有所限制現在已經很核心了現在所有的人都是必須要去做外有一點點做國際外交的人那自己專家的話我們很鼓勵如果真的自己有機會的話能夠來加入我們都歡迎"},{"start":4967.108,"end":4987.703,"text":"好我很希望未來你們稍微改變一下做法因為去年你也覺得說我們長期以來似乎沒有什麼太大改變那最後因為這題是基層醫療希望我可以問的不好意思主席我再三分鐘這個護理呢三班戶病比的這個問題我們當時說提出這個政策是為了提高護理人員增聘7500位"},{"start":4989.804,"end":5016.546,"text":"那醫學中心預計新增3545區醫院3455地區醫院582人那我想問一下衛福部因為你們做這個公告的時候醫院其實就已經開始改變他們的醫療環境啊開始增聘人力因為每個人都希望可以得到這個護病比獎勵所以我只是想知道說具體你們發布了這個獎勵制度後成效如何因為你有幫自己設定希望增加多少多少多少所以到目前請問不知道你有這個數據嗎"},{"start":5018.818,"end":5024.143,"text":"這個我們非常努力在進行是不是請市長幫忙回答一下謝謝我們現在在那個監測人力是用每年近增加多少以及因為護理師的那個人力有季節性所以我們會有每年的同期來比較那目前比如說現在4月底我們護理人力大概增加了3600"},{"start":5044.232,"end":5062.225,"text":"那醫院是增加1450左右所以你還沒有區分是醫學中心地區你還沒做區分那我現在記得我現在完整的記得的是整體的那那個比例上是以醫學中心增加我可能會後再跟您要這個增減的那個數據"},{"start":5063.686,"end":5082.522,"text":"下一個是護理師他們現在非常非常在意的因為之前可能曾經有獎勵的這些專款撥進來結果不夠透明也沒有公開所以他們現在很關心衛福部會怎麼做比如說你多久會公佈怎麼公佈公佈的頻率跟形式因為他們想知道他們的醫院到底是實際獲得多少錢"},{"start":5084.944,"end":5101.933,"text":"然後這些錢是怎麼分給大家的有沒有每一筆都花到員工的身上因為你是很籠統的說獎勵資訊要公開啦於院內公開公查詢並主動說明什麼等等這個是有點小含糊所以大家還是會很擔心所以希望我在這邊可以詢問"},{"start":5103.427,"end":5120.796,"text":"好如果是本來就說要給護理同仁的那個一定絕對不能打折那如果整個醫院院內的一個給院內那院內怎麼分配我們當然也有規定譬如說這三班分泌我們就是要以白一班的"},{"start":5122.026,"end":5141.291,"text":"護理人員的一個補助的優先這個已經把辦法寫清楚了所以未來護理師可以他們自己可以查得到說我們醫院因為獎勵領到多少錢這個都會是透明的我們會要求NNA完全公告 透明的好好 謝謝 謝謝而且會將網站來公開好 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長那繼續請王一民委員質詢"},{"start":5157.737,"end":5159.743,"text":"謝謝主席 我們是不是有請邱部長還有食藥署的署長委員長"},{"start":5166.667,"end":5189.06,"text":"部長這個澳洲的萊豬一來再來讓國人現在對於豬肉食品產生了恐慌其實從2020年當時去訂定這個萊豬的相關管理措施到去年為止豬肉儀表板上面沒有任何有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來"},{"start":5191.681,"end":5204.996,"text":"但是今年完全破功了而且是接二連三的來這樣子的一個情況衛福部的態度其實讓大家看了"},{"start":5205.823,"end":5217.593,"text":"覺得更心不安因為這個根據署長對外的說法來了就來了沒有關係一切呢這個吃了吃一輩子也不會怎麼樣這樣的一個說法跟國人對於來際的恐慌跟不安"},{"start":5223.417,"end":5235.448,"text":"事實上差距非常的遙遠面對這樣子的一個食安標準似乎在往下走在下降我要讓部長跟署長看一下現在的卓內閣不如蘇內閣當時在109年11月26號行政院他頒布了一個進口豬肉之全方位管理措施"},{"start":5248.86,"end":5271.993,"text":"當時的這個措施他第一點就要求從源頭管理沒有茶廠的肉品廠不准放行不准進口第一個我就要問請問現在澳洲含有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來的這一些肉品廠你們茶廠了沒"},{"start":5272.795,"end":5291.241,"text":"報告委員剛剛署長已經有跟大家報告過因為澳洲的進口豬肉是在之前就早年已經經過我國行政院農委會的防檢局承諾就是系統性的開放所以那個時候已經同意"},{"start":5292.97,"end":5313.115,"text":"109年11月26號行政院才頒布 頒布沒有茶廠的不准放行委員這邊做一點點 稍微補充那是因為在109年之前 行政院 農委會 防檢局其實"},{"start":5314.622,"end":5338.134,"text":"他就已經承諾系統性的開放基於信賴保護的原則所以就很早很早就開放所以接下來如果委員有這樣子的要求或者希望我們也可以積極來辦理我要求現在澳洲的部分因為已經三批都已經驗出有萊劑了所以他的飼養方式他的相關的豬肉廠你們如果沒有去查場"},{"start":5339.615,"end":5368.733,"text":"這個根本就直接放行進來這是有問題的所以第一個我的要求就是你們要先暫緩澳洲的豬肉的進口因為他是沒有經過查場的所以沒有經過查場你要回到109年行政院所公告的沒有查場的你就不准進口嘛那你現在是沒有查場先進口啊結果發現他這個已經連續三批都有來濟了基於食安更嚴格的標準你的行政權你是可以先暫緩進口的可不可以"},{"start":5369.275,"end":5391.222,"text":"跟委員做這邊報告剛才特別提到農業部房檢局其實在很久以前100年以前就是常態性的進口我們基於信賴保護的原則因為你現在查出萊劑了那還有萊劑啊全世界跟委員報告全世界可以允許豬肉裡面使用萊劑的國家呢其實有27個國家"},{"start":5392.742,"end":5409.801,"text":"我知道其他國家我們有我們的標準嘛109年行政院的標準就是這樣子嘛而且從109年到去年為止包括肉品廠商沒有進口含有來借肉品來到台灣嘛那你今天發現澳洲他們現在在飼養過程"},{"start":5411.322,"end":5416.787,"text":"萊劑有添加然後你們沒有去查過場從109年到現在從來沒有去查過場所以你們應該要重新啟動這個就是你食藥署對於民眾食安的一個把關的標準這個有這麼難辦到嗎在委員這邊做簡單的報告可不可以去查查對整個的"},{"start":5430.977,"end":5456.971,"text":"豬肉牛肉管制是我們是一致啦所以這豬肉其實我們有2493批我們驗到都有微量檢出這從101年 署長我現在問你的產地茶廠你澳洲到底要不要去茶廠你就告訴大家我們這邊可以作為進一步的去做辦理可是基於性愛保護原則的其實對於這些我們是允許他們國家也是同意我們允許相關的使用的好 那我要求你你至少要去茶廠"},{"start":5457.992,"end":5486.523,"text":"茶廠你一定要做到這是你食藥署應該要做的事情第二件事情逐批茶宴在109年裡面行政院對國人的承諾是進口豬肉必須逐批茶宴結果到目前為止現在2023年你們已經下降到2到10%了這件事情下降的比例這麼快現在又發現含有萊克多巴胺的肉品你們要不要回到逐批茶宴的這個標準"},{"start":5487.666,"end":5512.738,"text":"跟委員報告就剛剛我提到的其實有肉品你也含到萊克多巴胺的加上豬的我們有2493加三件的所以對於這樣子的我其實很驕傲要跟委員報告一下所以我們邊境有一個BPI很驕傲這幾個字您可能要小心抱歉因為我們很認真因為同仁很認真做了所謂的BPI所以邊境的我們的人工智慧導入的預測系統"},{"start":5513.999,"end":5527.808,"text":"那對於沒有違規的產品其實我們會降低對於違規產品會做精準的檢驗跟抽驗所以我們這邊可以跟委員報告我們特別還是要推銷一下我們的Border Protection Intelligence目前按照這個比例來進行這個很聰明"},{"start":5530.189,"end":5548.572,"text":"容我提醒你在你們的食安的查驗標準裡面你們的食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法裡面所謂的要不要百分之百逐批查驗它其中有一項是查驗機關認為有必要予以逐批查驗"},{"start":5549.333,"end":5574.786,"text":"就可以煮批查驗在第九條第十條加強這個抽批查驗也一樣查驗機關認為有必要的時候就可以實施事實上賦予食藥署非常大的行政權就是要你們去守護國人的食安但是我覺得你們今天在萊克多巴胺的這個議題上面跟國人的認知差距非常的遙遠當國人是恐慌的時候你不但告訴國人說吃這個是安全的"},{"start":5577.248,"end":5596.863,"text":"當過去都沒有萊豬進來現在被驗出有萊劑的豬肉的時候你還是覺得沒有關係我不需要提高我的逐批查驗這樣的做法我只能告訴署長你沒有辦法安民心過去你們在查一些食安的風暴食安事件你們是怎麼做的"},{"start":5597.583,"end":5613.528,"text":"一旦發現之後你們會去提高邊境的抽驗的比例你們在下游會大幅的去稽查就是要安民心讓大家知道說有公權力在有中央在所以大家安心但是很抱歉我必須講這一次"},{"start":5615.509,"end":5629.715,"text":"來租進來之後你們給外界的態度是沒有關係什麼都沒有關係沒有採取任何行動作為要不要公佈流向說不用公佈要不要逐批查驗說不需逐批查驗那請問我們鑰匙鑰匙所做什麼"},{"start":5633.587,"end":5661.009,"text":"我們要食藥署是你要維持原來國人對於食安的標準要給國人信心但是你都不作為的情況底下國人只會越來越恐慌所以你過去在查蘇丹紅事件你看你們是怎麼做的過去食安事件你們是怎麼做的那你現在是通通不作為到目前為止你沒有要改變任何的做法所以呢就是澳洲的含有萊劑的豬肉可以持續進口"},{"start":5661.75,"end":5688.002,"text":"然後現在已經到了268公噸了其中有三分之一都含有萊劑未來不停止他進口繼續進口繼續流入市面而且流入市面呢而且可以不標示你覺得民眾會不恐慌嗎民眾可以有選擇權吧我可以選擇我不要吃到含有萊劑的這個豬肉吧但是在你們現行的管理辦法裡面沒有辦法"},{"start":5689.022,"end":5698.235,"text":"就會通通流入市面了流入到後端的加工食品廠他需不需要標示在你們現在對外的說明是不用標示"},{"start":5699.693,"end":5723.946,"text":"所以就混著他可以魚目混豬大家吃下去都沒有關係這個就是今天我要告訴你們的事實上食藥署是有工具有方法的我再讓你看食食品衛生管理法22條在22條第一項裡面他講了非常多的食品添加物通通都要標出來包括基改食品"},{"start":5724.58,"end":5746.489,"text":"也要標出來 這個是立法院後來的修法因為國人對於食安的標準越來越嚴格所以我們現在買到任何的加工食品連一個飯糰 你拿到背後所有的食品標示清清楚楚有什麼原料 什麼成品 什麼添加物一清二楚 這個是為什麼因為民眾有知的權利"},{"start":5748.123,"end":5774.323,"text":"但是在萊劑的這一條裡面你現在告訴大家萊劑也不用標肉品含萊劑通通都不用標那這個合理嗎請問萊劑跟基改食品他們對於人體的所造成影響跟傷害如果連營養都要標食品添加物要標含基改食品的原料要標含有萊劑就是這一項肉品裡面含有萊劑不用標嗎"},{"start":5776.829,"end":5792.814,"text":"豬牛其實一體適用那2493筆我們從來沒有標過的牛肉裡面我容我再提醒你你一直要把牛放進來講你是忽略了國人的食品的食用跟豬肉在國內加工食品的應用範圍"},{"start":5793.894,"end":5819.751,"text":"牛肉沒有豬肉那麼廣 這個是為什麼過去大家在談這個議題的時候就是牛肉它比較簡單 你只要標產地 大家就會知道但是豬肉不一樣 豬肉它的應用範圍 它做成貢丸 做成水餃 它做成滷肉飯它只要一加工之後 它就是化整為零整個出去了這個就是我們的國情不同 你不能一直把牛肉跟豬肉擺在一起看"},{"start":5820.171,"end":5835.672,"text":"牛肉在台灣很多人也不吃牛肉所以在豬肉的這個部分他應該是要採取一個更嚴格讓大家更安心的做法但是現在你對外說不公不留下其實很多人很恐慌"},{"start":5836.272,"end":5850.422,"text":"報告委員萊克多巴胺對一個科學家來說以及我希望我把我的食品安全以及獨立學教授我臨床醫師的觀點來帶給國人是他的化學是一樣在豬牛所有的"},{"start":5851.243,"end":5872.661,"text":"它的結構跟效應是一樣的 第一件事情第二個 位於臨床醫師其實職業已經30年從來沒有遇到一位萊克多巴胺的豬肉或者牛肉的到急診裡面就醫的那這個部分呢 其實我們知道所以我如何把安全經過這麼完整的視頻安全風格分析全世界的科學家共同努力台灣的這麼多人的心理指控"},{"start":5873.302,"end":5897.022,"text":"不要去告訴農業部對 進一步去做完之後呢把這個安全我希望我能夠把安全轉換成安心讓國人安心我願意當一個安心的署長讓大家能夠安心我希望能夠往這邊的對 署長我必須告訴你現在國人不安心所以你現在當不了安心的署長因為國人的反應是最直接的那你要理學那一塊專業我尊重但是你忽略了一個在國內我們國內"},{"start":5899.224,"end":5920.701,"text":"的養殖 我們的農業部是完全禁止乙型受體素的它是犯法的 它是要被罰錢的你認為在國人的認知裡面我們的豬跟牛在養殖過程完全不准添加的東西你今天進口的裡面肉品含有這個萊克多巴胺你要我吃下肚你認為國人的認知會是什麼"},{"start":5921.662,"end":5948.037,"text":"所以你的專業那一套我完全尊重但是在國內你可以看到是農業部它是禁止以行獸體塑的那國人的情感你要不要尊重我非常尊重我的情感一切都是國家至上人民優先的想法如果是這樣子的話我覺得你們目前為止對於萊豬的管制事實上你們有更多的工具現在是業者他自己發現進口到有萊雞的豬肉他要道歉他要銷毀"},{"start":5949.153,"end":5964.114,"text":"結果我們的中央食藥署說沒有關係這個是國人沒有辦法接受就是你的標準比業者還要鬆那你有很多的管制工具之前在蘇貞昌院長的時候他們就跟肉品廠商已經達成共識了就是進口"},{"start":5965.095,"end":5967.698,"text":"沒有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來而且施行這麼多年沒有破功那你今年是破功了我覺得這件事情你有很多的行政手段可以讓人民不要那麼的恐慌包括我剛剛講的"},{"start":5979.932,"end":6007.664,"text":"逐批抽驗也是你可以做的然後源頭茶廠也是你可以做的嚴格的把這個標示適時的去公佈流向只要它含有萊劑你有責任讓消費者知道這個也是你可以做的這個都是我們的行政權而且真的可以讓民眾安心也代表你衛福部在把關我覺得這些事情部長你們真的要考慮一個行政單位未有這麼大的權力就是幫人民服務這個部長你回應一下"},{"start":6007.944,"end":6016.191,"text":"好,謝謝委員,我想所以委員的指教,那我們一定是在科學的分析跟"},{"start":6017.945,"end":6042.23,"text":"國際的標準定出來的規定之下來力求剛剛委員提出很多的行政的措施我們利用這些行政措施來力保我們的國人真的是在死的方面能夠真的放心好我就是要求你要回到行政院109年自己所公告的進口豬肉全方位管理措施全面的落實這樣國人才可以心安"},{"start":6042.987,"end":6064.208,"text":"特別跟委員這邊做報告因為目前之前在做食品安全特別有做食品安全風險分析以及食品安全的管理在有台大的摩克斯的課程也在這個機會給全國的擔心的民眾跟委員這邊有機會可以可以一起來去看一下我做的一系列的一些課程那對於"},{"start":6065.149,"end":6080.317,"text":"深刻的了解之後或許可以讓我們心更安我希望我們的風險感知 risk perception 的部分經過我們溝通之後讓大家能夠漸漸安心下來我還是希望我能夠當一個安心的署長謝謝委員好 要民眾認可才可以啦不是自己講的好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝王委員 謝謝部長這個兩個平行線啊好 邱曾經委員質詢"},{"start":6099.537,"end":6110.866,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請江署長安心署長很驕傲的署長剛剛講很驕傲"},{"start":6116.174,"end":6140.02,"text":"蘇長好報告委員謝謝委員我覺得今天食藥署該檢討的不是只有澳洲豬腳的檢驗驗出萊克多巴胺的這件事情我們應該是要檢討整個我們的食安把關的一個原則你身為食品安全守門人但是在萊豬擴關成功的時候你在記者會講的話"},{"start":6142.04,"end":6149.376,"text":"讓人很錯愕啦因為你的回應一直在穿越時空在打民進黨的臉我們先看一下影片好了"},{"start":6164.464,"end":6179.495,"text":"在高達有八成的民力反對之下仍然要來開放美國含有瘦肉精的肉品進口本黨堅決反對這個瘦肉精是為了增加商業的一個利益這些添加物根本就不需要與沒有必要存在這個食物裡面更不必要讓民眾來直接去承擔健康的一個風險民進黨團再次重申"},{"start":6179.975,"end":6197.957,"text":"只有零减除 瘦肉精只有零减除不要 让瘦肉精放大量的东西比较强迟疑政策后是专门的国际领域将能力健康至于未知的东西感觉你觉得我当傻瓜 但是我不想当傻瓜我们台湾人不是笨蛋全国上下一条心 行政部门 立法部门 民间团体大家团结起来像美国人要求说我们要跟欧洲人一样吃到没有瘦肉精 没有灰热膜 那我们等鸡等牛肉"},{"start":6198.177,"end":6226.687,"text":"對於所有的作品絕對不能含有瘦肉精的立場跟態度我們維持一貫的這個原則我沒有辦法接受玩弄民意以及玩弄國民的健康我沒有辦法接受這樣的政府這樣的政府有點像炸黑吉他為了一個政治籌碼或是過去的一個政治交易來忽略掉國民的健康使用署這邊不會硬性規定要公佈有進口萊豬的廠商或人事偶像嗎根據食安法的規定其實不合格的也是要公佈你合格的公佈那大部分都合格了你就公佈"},{"start":6228.632,"end":6229.9,"text":"好 組長 剛剛那些人你都認識啦"},{"start":6232.115,"end":6261.138,"text":"這幾位有些還在立法院這些人有跟你抗議過嗎?郭委員你說吃一輩子都不會吃屎的這個說法當初民進黨的檢驗標準是零檢出那影片裡面就有兩位好像馬上要競爭台南市長的委員當時的賴清德市長以捍衛食安的決心以前他捍衛食安的決心是非常非常堅定的"},{"start":6262.506,"end":6286.601,"text":"那現在想要當賴清德接班的這兩個遊客有沒有跟你表示跟委員這邊做報告剛才那個是在美牛的時代美牛時代世界Codex還沒有訂出標準所以我覺得當時還沒有那麼清楚的情況下有這樣子的一個論述我都保有尊重98年我們12月9號賴清德當時的立委要求國民黨"},{"start":6287.541,"end":6307.231,"text":"主動順應民意禁止獨牛進口在當天民進黨團為了美牛修法也包圍了我們立法院的主席台101年2月9號賴清德市長說執政者不能棄守國人健康那101年2月16賴清德市長就說他在台南市率先執行"},{"start":6309.292,"end":6323.326,"text":"這個禁用瘦肉精 拒吃毒豬牛的政策他說 即使是美國也要尊重我們台灣的國情若硬要用萊克多巴胺就是不尊重台灣的老百姓你還記得他講的這些話嗎"},{"start":6325.517,"end":6349.411,"text":"報告委員 我想當時的時空背景世界還沒有標準標準都一樣的嘛標準那時候還沒有定 Codex 還沒有定標準所以在那樣時空背景如果配合我的課程的課去上完之後對於到現在已經經過十幾年會有新的一個體會跟體驗我們耐心的總統當時還嗆我們的總統說他說如果為了要當總統然後犧牲人民的權益那不如不要當啊"},{"start":6350.478,"end":6376.906,"text":"對不對那我們現在總統有告訴你驗出這個這個來這個來劑他接受嗎我想他有告訴你嗎在萊克多巴胺被開放了一個是在前馬英九前總統的牛肉的開放目前有兩千四百九十三批也有驗到微量其中六批有超標我們把它退運了銷毀豬肉的部分呢從驗了之後有三批那是在一百一十年蔡總統的時候開放蔡總統也講過啊政府做不來就下台嘛"},{"start":6380.479,"end":6408.116,"text":"他的標準你認為你要不要下台對於現在因為我們國家法令上面已經訂定說萊克多巴胺可以在豬肉牛肉裡面有參與的標準有這個標準如果標準超標的我們會推如果沒有銷毀的話就應該在記者上的回應我想請問一下就我們對食安法的認知這食安法立法的精神它是保護消費者還是廠商還是未來拿來當談判的籌碼"},{"start":6410.393,"end":6438.07,"text":"郭委員是以全民的國家至上全民優先的食品安全的食安優先的想法那人民現在會恐慌你知道嗎剛剛都很多人在講這件事情他的原因就是不確定性跟這個未知性他知道我們應該讓他剛剛我們玉敏委員有講到我們要讓人民他有選擇的權利所以我認為你們說這個一直到現在都不願意公佈流向這個原因是什麼"},{"start":6439.639,"end":6456.303,"text":"報告委員因為我們現在面對的是檢驗進來是合格的廠商規定是經過我們大院以及行政部門裡面訂定的他們沒有違規的情形之下它現在驗出來沒有違規嗎它沒有違規 它是檢出違規是0.01ppm以上你在記者會上說如果都要公佈就公佈不完現在驗出只有3p不是嗎"},{"start":6467.721,"end":6493.499,"text":"對 因為還有牛的牛會有兩千多匹我想說對於合格的廠商我們豬肉可以在我們那個那個豬肉魚表板上看到嘛那牛要在哪裡看對 因為牛沒有牛肉魚表板因為當初的背景上面沒有這個其實如果沒有豬肉魚表板豬肉應該是會很安心的牛肉跟那個牛雜碎驗出兩千四百九十三匹退了六匹嘛 對不對六匹 銷毀跟退回嘛"},{"start":6496.102,"end":6497.956,"text":"那這個部分我們民眾要去哪裡看啊"},{"start":6499.646,"end":6527.568,"text":"這個部分其實是在我們的行政上面的因為沒有顯示出來它違規的其實我們就是審查你們四五月這個抽批這個率是多少你說我們現在抽批要邊境因為我們是用人工智慧的所謂人工智慧導入的實案預測抽檢我們希望是精準檢驗所以2%到10%原則上到底是幾%對它符合在標準的範圍我們抽批大概是在10%以下"},{"start":6529.406,"end":6549.287,"text":"對 那我記得剛剛也講到去年蘇丹紅事件我們本來也是2到10後來也改到百分之百嘛對 跟我有報告那個是怎麼調的他是因為他是違規的蘇丹紅是不得檢出是違規的我們就打XX了如果他是合規的我們其實是打圈就放心我們耐心的總統標準是0檢出"},{"start":6551.489,"end":6572.669,"text":"那個在石東的背景底下,對於萊克多灣還沒有定所以經過這麼多年,我請有誰跟萊克多灣一起合作再交流你的專業我們當然是尊重,可是我們一直認為說你應該要把這個產地,或者是它裡面的一些規範就是它的產地的一些數字,要把它標示清楚"},{"start":6574.432,"end":6584.271,"text":"我們現在針對所有的豬肉不管國內國外我們都一體適用都有標示的在這邊跟委員做進一步的說明"},{"start":6585.393,"end":6613.693,"text":"有標示產地嗎?原料的原產地一體試用國內國外的其實都有都有標示的?對都有標示的好那我在想啦因為現在查出這樣的一個問題我希望我們原來的機制就是說當我們的抽檢率它突然抽到非常多的時候我們的那些這個抽檢率就要繼續提高因為你剛剛講的你只抽10%那另外90%你沒抽嘛"},{"start":6614.594,"end":6629.427,"text":"對 報告委員 因為這一次的總共三批其實在澳洲是同一個製造廠所以其實是一個所以我們雖然說它合格我們眼睛有偷偷增大增亮那你剛剛有沒有打算去看看像這樣驗出來的這個產地那我們以後還會讓它進來嗎"},{"start":6634.892,"end":6661.723,"text":"因為進口澳洲的廠商要進口選擇其實是來自於進口貿易商進口貿易商我們其實非常尊重他們我們設的標準之後按照這標準來做管理如果他們送來的東西都是常常出現問題的時候是不是我們應該剛剛我們幾個委員有講到要去茶廠看一下但關於這個茶廠部分剛才特別提到那是在農委會的時代"},{"start":6663.801,"end":6681.451,"text":"豬肉 澳洲豬肉就已經是進來了那基於信賴保護原則我們沒有再進一步的查場而且對豬肉廠在澳洲呢它是牛肉 豬肉 羊肉 鹿肉是一起的那個部分其實我們去查過場所以對於豬的部分那我請問一下我們現在如果有驗出來的我們有驗出來的話我們可不可以標示嗎"},{"start":6686.975,"end":6713.095,"text":"呃 我們剛才提到的其實所有的所有的我們都當作是一體適用的產地的都會做標示不是 我是說有驗出這個萊克多瓦安的這個肉品我想齁 以我是行政的協助國安保安 使安的過程當中如果我設了一個標準 它是合格的不管啊 我把他標示出來你只要驗出來他有嘛那你就標示進去嘛"},{"start":6713.855,"end":6741.746,"text":"我們國人要不要吃他權利啊我想跟委員報告一下因為如果在這個前提之下那我只要驗到草莓有什麼農藥的我就要標示草莓農藥可是它是合格的那其實國人看到更害怕更瘋狂怎麼會有農藥殘餘其實它會有殘餘其實是我們可以理解但是在我們的食品安全風險分析向下想盡辦法訂出一個殘留的標準這個殘留標準按照定義"},{"start":6742.766,"end":6755.073,"text":"劑量會決定毒性因為這個劑量因為現在大家聽到這個萊劑吼有含驗萊劑的肉品大家都恐慌啦吼那所以你們是要告訴大家這個萊劑是可以吃的我先委員報告一下"},{"start":6759.281,"end":6787.392,"text":"大家的恐慌很大一部分是對我在食品安全風險分析這種安全性上面的支持我希望以我的多年來的專業能夠把我的安全轉換成對民眾的安心我一定是以食安優先以人民的優先國家至上的原則來去希望我們站在維護國人這個食安的這個立場我希望我們大家來可以討論我覺得這個部分應該是可以討論希望大家來"},{"start":6788.812,"end":6792.894,"text":"研擬一套辦法讓我們的國人能夠安心那我再請部長一下部長請問一下關於外國學歷認證修法的問題你們認為變嚴格但是一屆一些團體認為你們是在放水那我覺得是不是我們來安排一場跟衛福部跟團體我們直接坐下來溝通你贊成嗎沒有問題可以啦我上任以來最"},{"start":6818.069,"end":6831.248,"text":"溝通最長的時間就是跟那個團體我想EOC家的媒體在旁邊直接播給全國播到最後媒體都一直撤了因為已經太累了這樣子至少有五部派代表好不好"},{"start":6834.132,"end":6849.92,"text":"我們非常樂意來互動而且已經解釋過很多次了如果還有擔心我們不能讓這些年輕的醫師擔心而且會有誤傳這樣也不好啦我們非常願意 謝謝謝謝教育委員 謝謝部長來 接續我們請林淑芬委員質詢"},{"start":6860.967,"end":6888.385,"text":"你感冒啦 別說太久啦好 謝謝召委 是不是請我們部長和署長江署長委員好 委員請多保重對 我也希望不要感冒"},{"start":6891.098,"end":6917.115,"text":"這個署長曾經在2021年說過當時是教授的身份嘛那以Codex的標準每天要吃6公斤的萊豬連續吃好幾年才會超標但這跟中毒優勢兩件事政府會把關請大家買豬肉食的時候要放輕鬆如果依照署長這個標準大概食安就是沒有食安的問題只有吃到毒物才會死的問題那我今天講說"},{"start":6918.996,"end":6941.305,"text":"這六天裡面來從短短六天就有驗出三批來寄的這個豬肉產品雖然都在那個我們的標準裡面但六天就有三批其實我剛才有沒有提到有退回去的有幾批減出啦減出但沒鈔票有三批那有退關的嗎"},{"start":6943.488,"end":6960.789,"text":"從租業方面沒有都沒有好因為署長部長和署長要提醒你喔這個對於食安的態度要兢兢業業尤其是我自己做一個媽媽作為一個家庭裡面會開火的"},{"start":6962.087,"end":6979.014,"text":"食安的把關者其實我的標準我個人的標準不是只有吃了會中毒吃了會有六毒的方向我自己個人是我不想要吃到那我想很多媽媽跟我一樣的心情"},{"start":6979.895,"end":6996.243,"text":"那我們想的說那就是透明知的權利知的權利其實就是這樣子而已你其實對抗WTO的貿易架構就是這樣子你強迫我們開了邊界我們就讓你進來但我消費者可以不買啊"},{"start":6997.321,"end":7025.442,"text":"就是全體的世界貿易都一直都有這種情節啊你強迫我開放那我就是我可以選擇不吃不買但是國家要扮演什麼你沒有去標籤化它但是你不可以講說這個署長你丟了一句說沒見過有人吃萊克多巴胺牛肉中毒的用這種態度來善效擔心的民眾我覺得唯一不需要的是這樣子你應該想的是"},{"start":7026.463,"end":7050.427,"text":"人民真的很擔心因為我有選擇不吃的這個權利啊我自己因為每個人的健康管理風險都是每個人在負責的我不想要而我有慢性的我代謝疾病我慢性三高的所以這種狀況裡面你在講講得很得意洋洋說你們科學的方法在把關你們的這個border protection whatBPI你們在做什麼其實"},{"start":7054.488,"end":7064.234,"text":"我們都希望有政府是邊境裡面源頭把關邊境如果六天就也撿到三批雖然沒有超標那有沒有可能"},{"start":7064.813,"end":7081.701,"text":"在邊境裡面其實就應該要把查驗的這個強度稍微提高一下加強邊境和後市場的稽查那你在這個過程當中你一直以幾個數據來告訴我們譬如說你的新聞稿寫2021年1月1號到2025年4月30邊境報驗的豬肉和豬雜碎共計兩萬"},{"start":7089.404,"end":7091.947,"text":"5466批110年到114年4月間後市場對進口及國產豬肉的產品共檢驗18501件檢驗這個萊克多巴胺結果皆合格"},{"start":7104.956,"end":7119.981,"text":"你是這樣寫的嘛但是我要問你是說你是不是應該公佈的不是這五年裡面我減了多少每一年你減多少因為我們知道剛開始的那一年減的數量是最多的也就是2021年110年減的批次最多那到2024、2025年其實都遞減了"},{"start":7130.003,"end":7144.413,"text":"所以邊境抽驗的比例其實是大幅遞減的在用遞減裡面六天就檢驗出三批含有萊劑雖然沒有超標但是我們說如果在這個主管機關的立場你應該告訴大家說那我來加強邊境的把關我是不是要把抽驗的批次再增加一點當你增加了檢驗出來了覺得風險沒有增加"},{"start":7157.967,"end":7176.835,"text":"那這樣子對人民才有交代啊而不是在這裡說吃了要吃沒多少啦這都合格吃不死啦我們的標準你的如果你要講科學數據科學分析那麼你應該把每一年減幾批公佈出來啊每一年啊讓我們看到從2021到2025是逐年遞減的你就不要糊弄我們用一個總的數據嘛所以"},{"start":7183.298,"end":7201.734,"text":"萊劑的安全容許量是一回事我們有標準也是一回事但我們也有不想吃到的權利所以不要以每天吃也不會死沒看到過有人因為吃萊劑而中毒這樣的說法太輕率了"},{"start":7203.236,"end":7226.131,"text":"這個凸顯了官僚的心態以外也忽視了民眾對於自我健康管理的這個差異和我選擇的自由所以每個人的身體狀況不一樣代謝功能也不一樣你吃了沒事不代表我不會不舒服或不是或者是他不會生病可是我吃了就不舒服我就沒有辦法適應或是我就是根本就不想吃嘛"},{"start":7230.08,"end":7256.84,"text":"所以民眾做飲食選擇的依據食安的標準從來都不該指示會不會吃了會不會死吃了以後會不會生病或者你上次罵我們的是知識的缺乏才會擔心不是不是你上次罵我上次質詢你罵我們的會擔心的都是因為知識的缺乏而非基於科學的風險評估"},{"start":7259.235,"end":7266.906,"text":"我覺得這個態度才是最重要的不然說我吃不死啊我對食安的標準不是吃了會死的也不是說吃了會中毒的不是你要安人民的心啊沒錯你說得對對不對"},{"start":7275.114,"end":7294.363,"text":"報告委員,我想我們都是天下父母親,我完全了解我們吃東西要怎麼吃,那署長他也是人家的天下父母親,但是他以他過去的...對啊,他是食藥署署長啊,你不可以做一個父母說,你快點吃,吃了就不會中毒,吃了就不會死,用這種標準來看待食安啊"},{"start":7297.284,"end":7323.545,"text":"他的意思是說用他的專業事實上如果真的希望讓大家安心好啦 署長你說什麼啦我剛剛講的 當你檢驗你邊境查驗逐年遞減而六天查到3P有減出雖然沒有超標但是不是應該要稍微提高一下你的邊境的抽驗原來你源頭把關好了不要流落到後市場去嘛"},{"start":7324.065,"end":7324.885,"text":"我們最討厭聽到業者自律 因為的確業者不可能自律"},{"start":7347.252,"end":7374.314,"text":"從所有食品安全破功我們都是建立在業者自律結果我們發現屢屢發現業者自律要求業者自律這個事情是不可能存在的都必須要他律啊對我的意思說這次呢業者自己跳出來說他不銷出去然後暫時都沒有要我是說他這個部分他要做這件事其實我們都尊重他們啊對啦我的意思是說你不應該告訴人民說這吃了沒中毒吃了沒死不是用這個標準"},{"start":7376.716,"end":7400.608,"text":"報告委員我們對食安的標準不是這樣子我的意思是說對於食品安全的這個風險的評估裡面我們知道科學上的風險是什麼是是但我們要有知的權利我沒有說不定標準或是不准進來但我可以選擇不要不吃到不買對 我說所以我在也非常同意委員這邊的提點但你政府的責任是你必須要趕快掐牆查驗看看有沒有超標的"},{"start":7406.297,"end":7430.871,"text":"你應該提高查驗的這個批次然後告訴我們超標的幾乎沒有雖然都有檢出但澳洲的全部都有檢出譬如說是不是這樣子讓我們有知道風險把關風險的能力要先有資訊啊我們針對這個抽驗的部分我們會持續的去做一些積極的評估我們也待會去做一些考量謝謝委員的支持好"},{"start":7433.672,"end":7441.909,"text":"因為你的數據其實也有一點玩弄你不敢講逐年遞減這種事好沒關係我來問一下長照的事情部長"},{"start":7444.313,"end":7468.241,"text":"這個台灣進入超高齡社會喔這個平均壽命是80.2男生76.9女生83.7那特別要強調這個數據是因為這個數據關係到整體長照的負荷和效能你從2.0要到3.0但是人力和裁員要同時到位因為他影響到服務的品質還有他的可敬性如果前端階段有效介入"},{"start":7468.681,"end":7496.742,"text":"那麼延後減緩進入長照體系的速度所以資源的配置要很精準要提升照顧的品質這個是制度設計的這個關鍵也是政策精準化的重要方向好 那我現在要跟你討論的是腦中風年輕化這件事腦中風年輕化我們的長照體系可以接得住這一群45歲以下就中風失能的人嗎 你回答我"},{"start":7498.701,"end":7503.826,"text":"45歲以下就失能的人 我們的長照有辦法接得住他們嗎"},{"start":7505.635,"end":7529.062,"text":"那報告委員這個也是很重要的議題所以我們在長照3.0會把這個部分你要怎麼接進去那個請次長回答一下非常感謝委員我想三個重點第一個我們現在3.0我們現在會來放寬就是說如果說有這一個有這個部分的話我們之前大概都是65歲以上對等等那些嘛那我們現在如果說有這個部分的話我們會來放寬"},{"start":7531.203,"end":7551.911,"text":"主席要從年齡去放寬還是要從什麼資格因為你就室內的資格我跟委員報告其實主要是從我們住院那個PAC就是那個基金後期你都青菜公共幫委員這不是青菜公共我也知道就是現在目前中風確實有年輕化的現象你知道有多嚴重中風的人裡面幾個有一個是年輕人45歲以下你知道嗎"},{"start":7553.522,"end":7561.108,"text":"你知不知道以前中風的比例年輕人大概占5到6%現在到幾%你知道嗎你沒有去正視這個問題你連數據都沒有幾%你知道嗎中風的人裡面有幾%是年輕人啊45歲以下你不知道我告訴你不用叫他們給你數據了15到18%而且每七個就有一個是45歲以下而且45歲以下青壯年正值事業的巔峰啊"},{"start":7583.266,"end":7600.873,"text":"在這種狀況對家庭對他個人對整個社會的衝擊何其大那我們在講是說你知道而且都以哪一種中風有兩種出血型還有阻射型你知道年輕人的中風跟老年人的中風有沒有顯著的不一樣你知道嗎年輕人是出血型比較多"},{"start":7601.593,"end":7630.407,"text":"年輕人是出血型比較多年老的人出血型中風只佔了兩成但年輕人的中風大概五六成都是出血性的中風而且男生佔了六七成我講男生而且都是家計負擔者這很重要所以這種狀況裡面他的代謝疾病很多人都不知道自己糖尿病不曉得自己高血脂都不知道自己有三高45歲以下誰會想到自己離死神有多遠或多近"},{"start":7631.721,"end":7646.766,"text":"那我要問你是說 你剛剛講說PAC我現在問你 中豐的黃金復健期是多久半年好 那你的PAC要接觸的人有辦法接觸這一群嗎"},{"start":7647.987,"end":7663.548,"text":"包委我們那個現在目前的做法是這樣現在就是在出院準備之後我們現在目前當然就是說我們現在一方面當然是縮短嘛對不對縮短之後然後現在我們也跟健保署這邊在加強加強合作就是說整個天數上面的那個縮短還有另外一個就是說我們就"},{"start":7665.35,"end":7669.593,"text":"還有中介機構就是說你現在目前整個你要回到家中間呢我們現在也在輔導你們PAC從2014年開始做這個名稱叫腦中風急性後期的照護他要解決住院的天數的問題還有復健連續性的問題然後呢在急性後期的照護"},{"start":7688.767,"end":7706.021,"text":"進入穩定期以後轉介到復健的專門醫院在這種狀況裡面我們要講的是說他為什麼這個東西很好效果很好成效很好可是很多人沒有辦法使用的原因是在他的門檻很高他的門檻有多高你知道嗎"},{"start":7707.23,"end":7731.209,"text":"要使用PAC計畫必須個案本身體力需要承受大量密集的復健運動醫療團隊判斷需要具備積極復健的潛能者第一 要具備基本認知 學習能力和意願第二 要具備足夠的體力支撐下能於輪椅或船員至少維持一個小時的坐姿自己有辦法坐一小時的啦"},{"start":7734.531,"end":7762.453,"text":"我現在要說的是說能夠進入PAC計畫的腦中風患者相對的都是失能的程度沒有那麼嚴重的啦沒有那麼嚴重的所以你這一個條件沒有改變其實年輕人一中風失能程度嚴重他沒有辦法進入PAC啊甚至他沒有任何可以接住他們因為你長照服務的四大類型適用資格是什麼"},{"start":7763.414,"end":7782.297,"text":"幫您保證講一下包委員我們現在主要大概就是那個65歲以上CMS2-8另外就是我們原住民55歲還有那個還有身障身障還有50歲以上失智但是如果年輕的中風者要符合哪一個條件"},{"start":7783.439,"end":7798.779,"text":"請能夠等到身心障礙者的身份我們現在目前在3.0的時候我們現在目前會在整個資格上面來說來做放寬你要放寬到哪裡我現在跟你講你要先知道問題在哪裡因為你要等到他確定是殘障領到殘障所措才能進入失能的體系去"},{"start":7799.7,"end":7823.539,"text":"那要經過半年觀察他不會認為醫療機構還有這個鑑定機構不會認為你一中風就是永久性的失能所以一定要失能一陣子確認你失能了才要給你證明你才有辦法進入長照體系那可是跟我們的黃金復健期剛好是衝突的我必須在黃金復健期馬上做這個復健然後呢否則的話"},{"start":7827.346,"end":7851.146,"text":"可是跟黃金復健期這個年輕的中風者必須要幹什麼嗎他必須要不斷的換醫院不斷的轉換醫院雖然你們從109年開始就刪除了住院日數30天的品質指標但是每個大型醫院都會告訴腦中風的患者管你45歲以下還是45歲以上28天通通要出院"},{"start":7852.026,"end":7879.641,"text":"理由就是病情穩定了你希望後面還有很多人中風的要用這個資源所以這個復健科還不到一個月28天的年輕的中風的人他就要開始找醫院然後呢他的復健之路何其漫長他的黃金復原期很重要可是呢如果一個年輕人你在做黃金復健的時候你沒有接住他你讓他變成永久失能永久躺在那裡"},{"start":7880.922,"end":7892.613,"text":"這個國家的長照 未來的長照體系 國家的醫療資源這樣不好啊 你在黃金時期讓他趕快的復原能夠復原到相當程度 能夠生活自理 能夠照顧自己"},{"start":7895.47,"end":7917.867,"text":"這個頭三個月這樣的一個黃金的恢復期物理治療職能治療語言治療在這種狀況裡面他才是要搶救我們第一優先資源要配置在他們身上可是我們就目前的制度沒有接觸他們沒有所以照顧者45歲以下有可能剛結婚他的配偶或是他的媽媽"},{"start":7918.971,"end":7923.026,"text":"父母誰可以放下手邊的家庭和工作甚至小孩2歲 3歲 5歲 10歲"},{"start":7926.079,"end":7952.574,"text":"誰可以來接住他們然後他光是在都市裡面尋求大型醫院的復健科要銜接黃金復健期都已經很困難了如果你在鄉下地區醫療資源相對不特別充裕的縣市其實這些年輕的中風者會出現不論是醫療體系或是健保甚至是患者家庭最不願意看的狀況他們會躺好躺滿一直躺到生命結束"},{"start":7954.125,"end":7962.69,"text":"這是不應該的所以這是不應該的你覺得我們部長你覺得我們要讓他們這樣子年輕中風七個就有一個"},{"start":7964.166,"end":7984.564,"text":"報告委員真的很感謝您把這個重要的問題 一直長期這幾年來大家心中的覺得比較需要解決的問題提出來沒有啦 講真的講的空的 不好意思我自己跟你講啦所以你們回去要想3.0的會努力3.0要怎麼努力 好好的想一下"},{"start":7985.385,"end":7991.738,"text":"要 第一優先要接觸的是年輕的中風的人我想健保署這個部分也做很多啦中風和醫療和長照的關係是什麼"},{"start":7994.794,"end":8013.69,"text":"跟委員報告這個從開始早先的這個症狀就要警覺然後我們健保現在有擴大那個取酸素的黃金時間最早的那段時間所以取酸素我們擴大到24小時你現在講治療醫療你現在講醫療我現在講的是長照體系要怎麼先接住他們所以我剛剛講幾個課題醫療長照"},{"start":8026.14,"end":8047.562,"text":"醫療和長照和復健所以私能的部分我們現在的PAC有三種樣態有住院PAC有日間照護的PAC跟居家的PAC剛剛委員講的是說要不要再把這個進PAC的條件再放寬一些因為過去大家討論的都是比較有potential"},{"start":8048.522,"end":8072.42,"text":"復健的那些才進PAC相對輕症啦不是POTENTIAL相對輕症因為對你們來講相對輕症這種看起來改善率很好嘛可是我要告訴你是說即使不符合住院型PAC收案的條件但也不代表要放棄他們也不代表說他們沒有需求他也是會進入尋常的復健"},{"start":8074.762,"end":8088.472,"text":"她還是有復健 尋常的哪裡有尋常的復健過去衛福部示範過護理之家的PAC啦但是這個非醫院主導模式的role model沒有後續沒有繼續示範你們的PAC健保給醫院啦你們沒有下放到地區的這種護理之家啦住宿型的復健照顧機構啦你們這個體制"},{"start":8102.882,"end":8111.027,"text":"我不管你怎麼用什麼方法我只想要看到年輕的腦中風的這一些人我們要在黃金時期整個長照體系照護體系要接住他們啊"},{"start":8116.455,"end":8134.005,"text":"對不對我想我們會把醫療跟長照結合起來來 接住如果接不住那些有需求的年輕人未來累積的醫療費用更多長照支出更多社會資源成本更多都變成個人和整個社會難以承擔的壓力"},{"start":8138.666,"end":8162.859,"text":"你要照顧的時間不一樣資源不一樣所以你一定要讓他避免越年輕師能照顧越沉重的狀況所以你PAC跟長照銜接的好你資格要放寬你的3.0就是要計畫到那這裡來如果年輕型的腦中風依然沒有辦法納入的話那這個問題就根本沒有解決我們醫療跟長照接口一定要接住每一個病人"},{"start":8163.579,"end":8191.946,"text":"我現在告訴你這裡就是沒有接觸的啊我現在告訴你這裡就是沒有被接觸的我們來演繹來改善台灣的長照制度已經涵蓋了重症兒童到高齡的長者逐步來形成這個全齡式的照顧的架構可是呢透過早期的復健和這個功能的促進要減少後續的醫療支出和長照的支出而年輕型的腦中風這一類型就是最關鍵的一個族群了"},{"start":8192.486,"end":8206.962,"text":"是 我們台灣醫療水準很高 不能容許讓我們的病人不是醫療水準而已啦醫療跟長照跟長照件我請問一下那個署長 那個復健不是在長照也都有護嗎"},{"start":8210.284,"end":8231.071,"text":"長照機構裡面也有回診那個附件還是有附的因為前三個月前六個月大概都還需要附件床然後住在那裡然後要去附件但是大型的醫院都沒有床位然後這個非大型的醫院的附件人家不會認為他們的附件"},{"start":8233.033,"end":8238.699,"text":"設施專業是到位的而年輕人需要的就是搶救他關鍵那六個月所以這個他的PAC計畫要不要放寬資格因為他很嚴格啊你自己有辦法支撐一點精英嗎"},{"start":8248.15,"end":8273.928,"text":"這中風啦 我就自己自稱1.1以上的中風都是相對比較輕度的再來就是說 你的PAC你只有健保幾戶 連動到大醫院沒有連動到護理之家也沒有連動到長照的機構沒有給 幾戶點數啦都沒有 所以說這個問題很嚴重的就是床也不夠可是我想講是 45歲以下他真的是關鍵啦"},{"start":8275.469,"end":8287.096,"text":"要接住他們啦好的是謝謝委員謝謝我們努力謝謝林委員的用心謝謝部長來接續我們請胡前幾委員質詢好謝謝主席那請邱部長委員好"},{"start":8305.553,"end":8331.079,"text":"部長好那針對過去我國推行長照2.0的檢討還有我們未來3.0預期推動的藍圖那我們本席也跟部長在委員會討論很多次那當然我們也看到衛福部的努力那可是還是每個月都看到一些長照悲歌那部長對我們到現在有長照2.0你覺得執行成果你還滿意嗎"},{"start":8335.226,"end":8363.353,"text":"我想從長照的2.0從不管是在經費、人力、服務人數跟長照的據點還有服務的效率我剛剛在口頭報告的時候都有報告單單服務效率我們從51天變成4天我們長照據點從724變成15000多次都是有幾十很多很多倍的一個成長照顧人力也增加了4倍所以基本上長照2.0的成果"},{"start":8364.218,"end":8379.317,"text":"是應該相當紅色但是一定還是需要再努力對可是我們看到單單上週4月28號到30號就發生兩件長照被割那共有五條性命不堪照護者"},{"start":8380.389,"end":8409.073,"text":"不堪負荷照顧者跟被照顧者一起走上絕路那我們現在的長照制度雖然針對我們失能程度有進行分類給予協助但是對於個案這些多重高風險的身份我們覺得他沒有給相對應更多的關懷暴露我們社安網跟我們長照資源分配在制度性的漏洞那我們之前三個禮拜"},{"start":8410.233,"end":8435.367,"text":"針對新北中和這個個案照顧者非本國籍而且他沒有替代照顧者在語言文化資源各方面邊緣屬於高風險的個案那我們各縣市身障服務中心如果依照政策落實的運作早就應該要全面盤點這一方面需要協助的個案那為什麼都沒有盤點到"},{"start":8437.093,"end":8459.918,"text":"好我想高風險個案的一個盤點我想我們是一直在努力啦那至於說會發生像這樣的狀況我們真的是心裡都非常難過而且在這麼努力之下還是會發生這種情況所以我們還有改進的一個空間啦那這個部分是不是請次長跟我們"},{"start":8462.119,"end":8485.296,"text":"非常感謝圖委員的一個關心那其實這個部分我想我們除了長照之外其實另外一個就是社安網社安網的部分其實主要事實上就是有高負荷您現在所說真是所謂高負荷那我們這裡面其實大概我們的機制主要是透過糧表的這部分他來趕快那個呈報之後然後我們會趕快列入這個整個一心高關懷的這一個的家庭那我想"},{"start":8487.838,"end":8513.037,"text":"這個裡面還有另外一個是包括您剛剛所說的有關於跟跟身障照顧服務身障團體身障服務中心這邊的這個相關人物整合問題那我想這個裡面的一些缺失我們確實應該也要來好好來檢討所以我們想了解一下這個問題是不是因為他出在沒有去實地訪視那沒有實地訪視我們也講過很多次是不是因為社工不足訪視員不足"},{"start":8514.938,"end":8532.392,"text":"你沒有去實際了解掌握他實際的狀況那照護者他的壓力又過重所以針對這些實際的狀況我們衛福部並沒有實際掌控是不是政府對於我們社工訪視員這部分沒有好好去做然後人員不足"},{"start":8533.953,"end":8555.765,"text":"報告委員 我想我們現在目前的機制就正如我剛剛所說的我們現在目前就是有長照的一個機制這邊主要是如果說民眾有任何問題主要都是用1966的專線他來跟我們來提出這個需求另外一個就是剛剛委員您剛剛所說的有關於社工的部分主要是我們的社會安全網"},{"start":8557.666,"end":8570.451,"text":"這邊我們的一個的部分我們會來來加強那我們現在目前的社工人數社安網的部分也從原先是1500我們現在目前呢已經增加到5000到5900那這邊"},{"start":8573.712,"end":8579.796,"text":"其實即使是增加這樣的人數其實事實上真的確實還是不足所以也非常感謝也邀請委員我們這邊我們會來加強推動那這裡面我們主要事實上就是有這一個所謂的系統借街"},{"start":8591.724,"end":8617.454,"text":"系統介接的部分主要事實上是剛剛說的有關於老人保護特別是有關老人保護系統這邊我們主要事實上就是這個系統我們跟照管跟這個剛剛說照管的這個平台之間的一個相互的介接讓我們的社工在受案評估可以看到個案他這裡面剛剛委員您剛剛所提示的長照失能等級還有他的服務狀態我們現在目前是透過這個所謂系統介接"},{"start":8618.294,"end":8634.181,"text":"好 部長 次長其實我們今天最主要我們討論很多次那當然我們也給我們衛福部來肯定針對社工的薪資這次有比照軍公教來調薪那我們是希望這個獎勵制度跟津貼"},{"start":8635.181,"end":8659.351,"text":"還是要注意啦你像針對我們訪視的獎勵制度還有圍牢的津貼這部分應該要給他們多加獎勵要讓更多的人投入社工的行列然後以相對應的薪資來留住這些社工也讓更多的社工來加入避免有太多這些受害者因為社工沒有去訪視而造成這些悲劇"},{"start":8660.686,"end":8688.22,"text":"我跟委員補充一下這個確實就是剛剛委員所說的就是我們有社工還是有欠缺那這個部分主要是要改善他的勞動條件還有最重要是他的薪資這個部分部長他也非常非常支持所以我們在這邊社安網的部分除了原先我們的社工之外另外其他就算是他不是我們的正式社工但是我們有委外的我們現在也一律部長的支持之下我們現在目前就跟軍公教調薪3%"},{"start":8689.241,"end":8700.552,"text":"好 我們希望社工社安網這部分還是要加強因為這講了很多次了好的好 那我們針對我們萊豬的部分我來請問一下好 請示"},{"start":8702.469,"end":8729.698,"text":"那部長當時之前我們農業部陳吉仲部長那之前他在發文有跟在野的立委說沒有全世界的萊豬都會進口台灣這件事情他那時候時空背景他說那台灣允許豬肉進口那時候是13國那這13國裡面有9個國家不允許使用萊克多巴胺那包含丹麥西班牙這些國家那有使用"},{"start":8730.938,"end":8759.243,"text":"萊劑的像紐西蘭澳洲美國跟加拿大這四個國家那當然當時我們紐西蘭因為沒有出口紀錄那加拿大他出口他是不含萊劑那澳洲本身國內生產不使用萊劑所以那個時候只有美國出口到我們台灣含萊劑可是現在我們是不是陳吉仲部長這個說法是不是破功因為你看我們現在澳洲使用萊劑的"},{"start":8760.652,"end":8785.407,"text":"豬肉已經進口到台灣來那我們衛福部是不是針對農業部這部分要做一些調查好 謝謝委員是不是市長來回應一下委員好 這邊跟委員做報告我們國內其實允許豬肉進口的20國牛肉進口其實有6國其中世界裡面允許萊克多巴胺在豬肉使用有27國"},{"start":8786.528,"end":8807.941,"text":"那可以來到台灣的有六國其實這邊提到的我們提到的使用端的跟可以使用端跟進口端大概是以上的說明那進一步的因為我們面對的是現在是進口的這一塊對於我們已經設了國家的標準這國家標準向下我們是針對萊克多巴殘留的標準"},{"start":8808.982,"end":8834.661,"text":"是0.001的標準那0.01的標準PPM的標準那這個標準的前提之下我們會按照這個來做管理那這樣子管理呢其實對國內外的任何的進口的來源都一體在適用但是之前只有美國有來濟那現在澳洲的也驗出來雖然說在我們的標準之內可是現在以前只有美國那現在澳洲也有"},{"start":8835.061,"end":8852.431,"text":"也難保其他的國家不會沒有那是不是針對澳洲的部分我們是不是跟農業部應該要去澳洲實地去做個瞭解是不是他們飼養的方式有加入這些萊劑導致送到台灣來的這些豬肉裡面在邊境查驗的時候驗出這個萊劑"},{"start":8853.679,"end":8877.927,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為澳洲其實是允許使用萊克多巴胺的他們本身飼養就允許了所以在國內是允許的在面對這樣的情形我們過去沒有去澳洲茶廠是因為澳洲豬肉來到台灣的歷史是非常非常長的歷史早在農委會衛福部農委會房檢署的時候就有房檢署的時代裡面就有了"},{"start":8878.487,"end":8896.688,"text":"那就已經進來所以我們就沒有基於信賴保護原則就沒有再進一步去茶廠事實上沒有進一步去茶廠我們針對它的牛豬羊鹿肉在他們國內是一體適用的整體的茶的一個茶廠的狀況所以我們針對那一部分在106年也做過系統性的茶盒"},{"start":8897.188,"end":8920.4,"text":"在系統上查核之後呢在112年的1月13號其實已經公告可以允許雖然我們沒有特別針對豬的但他針對整個在國內的是豬牛羊鹿其實這一體的可是重點我們現在當然有源頭管理跟邊境茶葉那我們豬肉儀表板也有顯示可是現在我們針對這些豬肉"},{"start":8922.581,"end":8944.813,"text":"產地我們有標示可是不標示萊劑那重點我們有查到有萊劑可是我們現在又不公布這個產品的流向是不是造成民眾對於這個汁的權利他喪失了那如果說他不要吃含有萊劑的豬肉那他完全沒辦法掌控那如果你看現在澳洲今年進口"},{"start":8946.774,"end":8962.583,"text":"336.6公噸那我們查驗到70.24公噸就含有萊劑等於五分之一的澳洲豬肉就含有萊劑那你又不公佈流向那如果他擔心吃到的話那是不是你要讓民眾就拒絕吃澳洲豬肉"},{"start":8963.063,"end":8986.69,"text":"我跟委員這邊做報告一下因為這次抽到三批是在澳洲是同一家廠進來的有兩家貿易商同一家廠來這是第一個做說明第二件事情是我們針對這個豬肉牛肉的查查其實從101年的牛肉馬總統的時候開放的時候到110年的蔡總統開放豬肉的時候我們總共查出來有的牛肉是2493件其中"},{"start":8989.291,"end":9009.476,"text":"這查出來是萊克多巴胺是有檢出微量檢但都是合格的0.01ppm以下其中有6批的牛肉是不合格的我知道是合格的可是基本上應該讓民眾有選擇的權利他如果他不要吃有萊劑的他可以挑別的那你又不公布流向他又認為澳洲"},{"start":9010.436,"end":9030.042,"text":"豬肉裡面現在最少有五分之一含有萊劑那你又不公佈流向又不標示這個萊劑那是不是變成說他只能放棄吃澳洲豬肉報告委員其實所謂的所謂的原產地的標示其實在國內國外的豬牛其實一體適用那因為"},{"start":9031.683,"end":9047.423,"text":"牛肉萊克多巴胺的部分2493件裡面其實沒有超標所以沒有特別讓民眾知道那在這種前提之下民眾不至於造成恐慌因為它在我們這邊的歷史已經是14、15年的歷史"},{"start":9049.726,"end":9071.863,"text":"我們是希望還是讓民眾有知的權利有選擇的權利好 那我們衛福部針對這部分我相信其實民眾對這萊劑你說雖然吃了以後不會怎麼樣但是民眾還是會有恐慌他應該有選擇的權利我可以選擇不含萊劑的好 謝謝 讓大家更安心謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝圖委員 謝謝部長"},{"start":9094.414,"end":9097.315,"text":"好 謝謝 接下來請我們蘇清泉委員"},{"start":9108.773,"end":9116.478,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請我們食藥署署長好 請我們食藥署的蔣署長李凱德 李凱德委員好署長 我這陣子看你講話 我替你捏兩汗你學生這樣講很危險"},{"start":9139.113,"end":9165.568,"text":"我看你在政界上還要再磨練你還有石崇亮署長,他是你的標竿他做過次長,他做過次長,他做過署長,一直這樣子他都在做但是你看他prepare,prepare長官學,他都有他的一套這樣講話很危險,什麼吃不死,喝水就死了"},{"start":9169.249,"end":9194.839,"text":"吃飯也會死 吃米也會死所以這樣講是完全很危險的講法我要拜託署署長要自己提點謝謝委員 謝謝我今天早上有跟我們中華民國養豬學會潘連周理事長有跟他聯絡我說你的訴求是什麼這潘連周他是中華民國養豬學會的"},{"start":9196.55,"end":9216.972,"text":"他只有兩個要求因為他說從國外進口的豬肉佔我們不到一成差不多十到十二萬公噸台灣自己的豬肉他們很有信心只有兩個要求第一個要標示產地"},{"start":9219.468,"end":9236.757,"text":"那第二個這個台北市長是炒得太熱了從我第八屆第九屆、第十屆是我們邱太郎部長在做立委第八屆就剪到剛才你看到很多包括田秋晴、陳潔如都在這裡寫名我做教委每天在這裡寫全部都要求"},{"start":9245.851,"end":9268.202,"text":"零檢出好了你看歐盟自己有訂Codex但是他不允許使用萊克多巴胺他也不允許用萊克多巴胺的肉品進口到歐盟現在是這樣喔他雖然他有訂他有訂標準Codex的標準說歐洲華典委員會訂出來那中國"},{"start":9270.329,"end":9280.477,"text":"兩個都禁止所以他從巴西進口牛肉啦從美國進口牛肉豬肉啦他們就乖乖的沒有用萊克多巴胺的農場乖乖的生產過來那俄羅斯沒有那日本有限度使用10個ppp就0.01ppm那有條件進口"},{"start":9295.556,"end":9309.715,"text":"萊克多巴胺的韓國也是一樣那台灣也是這樣被逼的啦差不多也是這個條件那美國他允許30個PVP那進口的也是30個PVP我剛剛"},{"start":9310.896,"end":9331.183,"text":"我剛剛在那邊主持的時候打電話到美國我的親戚舊天山我問他說你們現在那個萊克多巴胺的肉是怎麼做因為我上次去美國看的時候是有標示他有吃瘦肉精的他就標示這邊沒吃瘦肉精的"},{"start":9332.182,"end":9357.913,"text":"然後他說我說現在有沒有改變他說現在就沒有標示了但是他們如果沒有吃瘦肉精的他們會寫Nature就是他的食物是Nature沒有含藥物那個比較貴一點阿其他的什麼牛肉啦鹿肉啦什麼肉都沒有特別的標示因為FDA允許什麼瓦格肉都30個PVP啦美國人就是這樣"},{"start":9360.868,"end":9389.802,"text":"那美國就他們最好的嗎?沒有啦美國都黑白的啦所以給美國現在的標示就是這樣所以你對於這個標示產地你剛剛說我聽你講好像是國內國外都要標示產地有沒有是嗎?沒錯嘛那如果這個這兩天看到這個廠商是說他自己包裝抽屋、印書抽屋或是分裝抽屋是真的有這回事嗎?"},{"start":9393.154,"end":9412.771,"text":"這個我沒有特別去詢問廠商因為有一點敏感的時刻當署長好像不太適合去問廠商說你們的狀況但是他們是有這樣子的宣稱以及有新聞稿我有看到好那這十幾年來所有的藍綠的民意代表包括我們總統當時說我這麼年輕我一定要臨時演出"},{"start":9417.95,"end":9436.423,"text":"那這個題目炒得太熱了這個題目不是用說你說零點零一啦零點零四就吃了安心啦吃了不會死啦吃一輩子都不會死這個是情感問題 感覺的問題所以你說這個要再細緻一點再跟署署長請教一下好 謝謝"},{"start":9444.161,"end":9445.722,"text":"所以這個要很嚴肅的來看待"},{"start":9464.178,"end":9480.837,"text":"因為前一陣子國內的牙醫聯盟歐洲的東歐的牙醫聯盟日本的牙醫的學生的家長有三組人 吼 每天就在那邊忙不定我看你更可憐的啦 每天後面啦那現在"},{"start":9484.624,"end":9510.837,"text":"有經驗的 有那個的 他不去偏鄉偏鄉有幾十個 沒有沒有沒有五十幾個吧五十五個 對 五十五個五十五個 包括屏東就幾大堆啊有走走的 沒走去啊外國回來的 你沒辦法去啊每天就換人家啊總是偏鄉裡頭要人多多的啊"},{"start":9513.223,"end":9530.076,"text":"現在芽衣前年會,我看他討論,他說不然可不可以讓這個芽衣師畢業,我看一年也沒有多少個啦,頂多一百多個啦,難的嘛那用替代役,讓他去山上,他有這招啊,他有這招啊嘛,因為芽衣師出雜,但是經驗可能比較不好,但是總比不好比較好啊,你覺得這個這個這個要怎樣?"},{"start":9545.049,"end":9560.434,"text":"這個當然我們可以做建議啦不過這是內政部的權責所以是一個方式你現在沒有補啊沒有補啊 這裡是偏鄉現在是這樣啦 有那個偏鄉現在亞裔偏鄉這個計畫喔我們有鼓勵我們本國畢業的醫師喔可以去偏鄉我們再鼓勵保障薪水喔現在有這個制度現在就"},{"start":9576.69,"end":9590.338,"text":"現在這部份的價位是行政要去審查,因為包括保障薪水,包括他去到那裡,那個要把那個儀器嘛,設備什麼要處理好,所以我認為課程在衛生所,給他設備,讓他可以去。我先跟大家講,現在立體規定的是要本國畢業的,本國IHC畢業的。"},{"start":9600.817,"end":9619.193,"text":"對啦,你不要在那邊砰砰牙醫師,有經驗的先去,去保障薪水,我是怕還有人要去啦,不然你偏偏的誤導我牙醫師說的那說,如果有一個瘦不可能的,有得人要去啦我不會說的,人家看不定,看不定喔,看不定喔"},{"start":9620.774,"end":9626.278,"text":"要自己中間去看,在那裡也沒有藥醫,平常藥醫師說的去輪,輪,每次也開天窗,那不太簡單啦,藥醫師自己都在診所,自己都沒用,每次都中間"},{"start":9637.026,"end":9656.721,"text":"所以這個替代役這一塊算一算應該可以來補充人力不然的話你國外的不行這個有經驗的沒有人要去這個總是要改革的保證這塊的這塊的檢部有問題嗎?沒有問題嗎?可以嗎?部長當然這有一定的條件,市長講一下"},{"start":9667.653,"end":9686.167,"text":"謝謝委員關心 就是誠如剛剛我們部長講的替代役是市內政部的權責然後再第二點就是說從113年起因為國家常備兵員的有一定的員額的考量所以113年起就只有因為宗教跟家庭的因素可以申請替代役這樣子"},{"start":9687.088,"end":9708.744,"text":"然後再來就是說雅一系的畢業生剛開始畢業的時候他有分有牌的跟沒牌的因為不是每個畢業生都一定可以考上如果說把經驗比較少的把他送到比較偏遠的偏鄉這樣的話他的適當性我們還需要考量再來替代儀的話94年次以後的畢業生只有一年"},{"start":9709.785,"end":9725.391,"text":"所以這個如果說他們一年有可能會造成短比較短期的人力那基本上我們在部長的指導之下我們希望是提供至少要有PGY以上的而且是長期的人力剛剛我們部長也講過了就是說畢業去當PGY"},{"start":9728.616,"end":9746.33,"text":"還沒有PGY喔?是畢業考上就去當兵?還是當替代役?對要跟我PGY,連PGY就沒有我們的偏鄉計畫,就是在部長指導之下,我們的偏鄉計畫是要有PGY以後才會去偏鄉這樣子偏鄉計畫是有完成PGY,當然是一定要用這招"},{"start":9750.232,"end":9767.623,"text":"這修化有靠一項一般醫學的訓練一般牙醫學的訓練可能是比較適合這個替代醫這你要考慮的因素比較多但是是一個很好的方向我們也可以來建議啦好 可以考量這一塊啦好 謝謝趙委員好 謝謝蘇青前委員那下一位請我們黃秀芳委員"},{"start":9783.796,"end":9786.818,"text":"謝謝主席我們請部長好請部長委員好 部長好今天上午很多位委員就是關心我們這個進口豬還有這個萊克多巴胺的事件那我知道就是說我們全台灣進口的豬其實占不到"},{"start":9807.248,"end":9827.326,"text":"差不多一成左右而已啦差不多百分之十啦那國人使用這個豬肉的這個習慣很多都是使用這個溫體豬那其實我會覺得就是說產地標示清楚讓消費者自己做選擇另外就是說有很多進口的這個"},{"start":9828.807,"end":9852.158,"text":"進口肉進口豬肉進來之後很多都是直接到那個加工加工食品貢丸啊肉乾啊之類的那如果說今天我們標示產地如果在超市的話其實你標示這個豬肉的產地民眾消費者可以很容易的去辨識然後可以去選擇我到底要不要吃進口的那如果"},{"start":9853.118,"end":9860.824,"text":"是在加工的食品譬如說貢丸 肉乾之類的這種加工食品那"},{"start":9862.867,"end":9889.163,"text":"如果是散裝的如果今天這個貢丸他在超市在傳統市場他是用散裝的那他是這個用進口的豬肉去做的那你如果完全沒標示的話我消費者完全沒辦法知道這個豬肉的來源所以我這邊是不是可以要求就是說產地的標示除了這個很多都進到這個加工的部分然後那加工食品的這個部分你們要怎麼去規範"},{"start":9890.353,"end":9903.871,"text":"那個市長你要不要先這邊跟委員報告那我們針對所有的原料的豬肉的產地就是豬肉就是豬肉的原產地的標示其實一直都有是在事業進行舉例說剛剛說的散裝的"},{"start":9906.875,"end":9927.631,"text":"豬肉原產地標示跟我們的包裝的貢丸也是都有標示如果今天我在傳統市場我買了貢丸那個散裝的那你們怎麼去規範說我買到的這個是台灣豬做成的貢丸或者是我買到的是進口豬肉做成的貢丸"},{"start":9928.519,"end":9943.712,"text":"消費者要怎麼知道跟在食安法的25條底下我們對於散裝食品的豬肉原料的原產地的標示其實是一直都有在進行的那他在販賣的場所裡面其實就會有揭露這樣子的一個訊息以上"},{"start":9944.372,"end":9952.263,"text":"好我希望就是說衛福部針對這一部分因為國人畢竟國人會擔心那因為國人吃這個豬肉的這個習慣多數都是吃溫體豬而且對台灣的這個豬肉"},{"start":9961.835,"end":9987.803,"text":"它比較不會有那個腥味應該是說腥味那進口的這個豬肉很多都會有那種腥味所以國人還是比較喜歡食用台灣豬而且台灣豬的這個品質也比其他的都還好所以我是希望就是衛福部針對這部分應該是要求標示清楚不論是有包裝的加工的食品"},{"start":9988.243,"end":9994.294,"text":"不是去包裝或者是散裝都一定要要求標示清楚讓消費者自己去做選擇"},{"start":9996.841,"end":10020.923,"text":"我們國內國外都一體適用另外我們也希望也是要嚴格去查畢竟對於國人食的安全衛福部跟食藥署這邊要負很大的責任所以我們也希望除了標示之外嚴加的查查我覺得這個應該也是要做到的"},{"start":10021.838,"end":10046.56,"text":"是邊界的檢查以及市場的一個監測我們都會落實好 那那個署長你可以先回另外我想請教就是說部長我在那個人力銀行上面有看到就是說有醫材公司他們的徵材那他的這個徵材網頁上面就有特別提到就是說配合醫院手術跟刀及條壓"},{"start":10048.561,"end":10070.857,"text":"好那這個是在那個人力銀行應徵的這個工作性質就是配合醫院手術跟刀及調壓那經驗不拘不需要有工作經驗經驗不拘那我實際有請教就是也有問過目前在從事這樣工作的"},{"start":10072.113,"end":10091.565,"text":"的人確實就是醫師開這個腦部腦流那可能會裝一些醫療器材可能有這個醫療器材裝在腦部那引流的部分那這個醫材公司他的業務"},{"start":10093.151,"end":10111.04,"text":"他的業務就會到這個這個手術房裡面跟刀然後未來這個裝完之後可能這個病患的這個調壓腦壓什麼就是調節的部分也是由這個業務來做那部長你覺得這樣是正常的嗎我覺得是醫療是一個團隊也不能說誰單單做那個動作他就是"},{"start":10120.325,"end":10137.716,"text":"完全的負責比如說這個一定是腦外科的主治醫師指導的醫師主導所有一切包括誰要做什麼動作誰要做什麼動作我想應該就是主導者在領導這個團隊所以這個可能要看他"},{"start":10139.658,"end":10158.339,"text":"做的事情是在一種技術的協助還是有特別專業的成分我覺得專業還是在腦外科的一個主導的意思來主導所有的一切這個患者手術完之後回到家裡面"},{"start":10160.682,"end":10174.255,"text":"儀器可能也在他的這個腦部跟他的那個肚子裡面那可能要做一些腦壓的一個調節的部分那也許在短時間內可能有排定回診的時間那這個時間還沒到的時候有時候患者他就會直接請這個醫材公司打個電話然後請業務來幫他做這個調節"},{"start":10184.285,"end":10207.398,"text":"那你覺得這樣是合理的嗎或者是說未來如果這樣子出了問題那這個責任要算誰的我想只要還在調還在等於是說醫療的階段應該都是由主治醫師來負所有照顧的責任"},{"start":10208.721,"end":10235.86,"text":"那至於說各個專業或技術人員他能夠參與的層次我想主治醫師都要掌握而且都要負責我想應該不是由一個某一個成員單單去做那件事情因為那裡面其實是充滿專業的灌注在裡面他才會去做那個動作"},{"start":10237.521,"end":10248.957,"text":"我想這樣子還是我相信每一個那個去做的動作背後也是一個團隊思考那這個東西就是由負責的照顧的醫師應該要去擔負整個醫療的責任好"},{"start":10253.223,"end":10271.54,"text":"部長因為我今天要跟你講的就是說其實現在這個我們所有的醫療醫材真的是日新月異那我現在舉這個例子那另外就是說我們在長照的這個據點上面也有那個機器人嘛也有機器人那"},{"start":10273.381,"end":10290.13,"text":"這個機器人可以跟裡面的這個阿公阿嬤可能聊天或幫他做一些那個送東西送藥那我想請教就是說未來就剛剛講的這個醫材方面或者是類似這樣機器人"},{"start":10291.05,"end":10313.984,"text":"那因為我在一兩個會期之前那時候也有特別提到就是說我們專業的這個醫學工程人員這個可能在這個醫院裡面都有可能負責這些醫療器材的部分那在之前大家會希望就是說因為現在這些儀器真的"},{"start":10315.154,"end":10322.423,"text":"真的確實要有這樣的一個專業的人來從事而不是我覺得就像剛剛講的這個這個醫材裝在腦袋裡面然後這個腦壓的調節"},{"start":10328.683,"end":10351.706,"text":"引流是由一個可能沒有什麼工作經驗的然後也沒有什麼醫療相關背景的人來從事這樣的一個工作那我想請教那個部長未來有沒有可能針對我們這個醫學工程師的這一部分會朝向這樣的這種想法或者是你們也會有"},{"start":10353.188,"end":10358.467,"text":"希望能夠有醫學工程師法這樣的一個立法"},{"start":10359.994,"end":10384.421,"text":"好,我想醫學工程的發展,這30年的發展真的是幫助我們醫療品質,整個團隊的醫療品質幫忙非常大就像今天早上那個江署長、江教授也有說台大他有一國也有相關的一個跨領域的一個相關的課程電子跟醫療"},{"start":10386.481,"end":10405.367,"text":"電子跟醫療其實都是結合在一起那至於說本身這個醫學工程師他要用什麼方式才能夠來肯定他的專業能夠讓專業得到肯定我想我們以前當立委多年來也常常會碰到這個各個"},{"start":10407.679,"end":10420.539,"text":"專業人人他的一個怎麼樣去樹立他的專業當然樹立他的專業裡面對師生都比較好啦他的戲的發展那個生的發展但是怎麼樣但是一"},{"start":10421.538,"end":10438.337,"text":"這樣的一個醫學工程師他的定義還有他的一個背景是應該怎麼樣這個他們的內部都還在討論那我們一直有跟他們在溝通那我們會絕對是尊重醫學工程師的一個專業"},{"start":10440.079,"end":10458.76,"text":"因為我是看到那個人力銀行這樣的應徵我會覺得工作經驗不拘沒有經驗也可以而且沒有相關背景也沒有關係來做這樣從事我們會認為是一個醫療行為啦那如果是這樣子的話其實我覺得是還蠻"},{"start":10460.642,"end":10484.691,"text":"蠻嚴重的一個問題所以我希望就是說因為我們未來可能有更多更多的這個醫療產業智慧型的醫療產業而且現在在民間這種智慧型的醫療產業其實還蠻蓬勃的所以我希望就是衛福部針對這部分應該要去好好的思考好不好好的好我們整體來思考好謝謝謝謝黃委員謝謝部長我們現在要休息一下嗎因為大家等不住了"},{"start":10493.672,"end":10498.674,"text":"休息六分鐘好了我們王振興委員執行完就處理臨時提案"},{"start":10510.113,"end":10510.334,"text":"主席"},{"start":10533.055,"end":10533.255,"text":"後來應該說不是"},{"start":10959.744,"end":10962.595,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會 請王振旭委員質詢"},{"start":10972.329,"end":10994.903,"text":"謝謝主席我們請邱部長難得我們在台下有這麼多委員在同時在這個諮詢的過程當中在我們共同來努力 謝謝那今天看了這個部長的報告前面的部分是針對於我們在長照照顧部分的確在過去"},{"start":10995.743,"end":11021.681,"text":"從那個小英總統到現任的賴總統真的做了非常多的努力不只經費大幅的增加而且這個服務的據點也大幅的擴充同時也贏得了非常好的滿意度表示說這個政策是非常的正確而且服務到該照顧的人民因為我們也知道進入到超高齡社會的確長照尤其是高齡者的協助照顧真的是非常非常的重要"},{"start":11023.028,"end":11041.821,"text":"這部分就在根據後判斷需要注意的事情跟部長這邊再來做討論我們也知道其實長照過程裡面很重要就是疾病本身帶來一些照顧上的問題包括林書文委員也提到中風"},{"start":11042.822,"end":11067.295,"text":"尤其是年輕人的中風如何能夠協助他們能夠穩定病情那同時得到好的復健最後能夠回歸到家庭回歸到社會持續對台灣有所貢獻所以在極限期極限後期的照護到緩加以後呢這個都需要非常好的銜接才能把這個事情做好所以PAC就是極限後期的照護如果能夠做得好的話就能夠"},{"start":11068.635,"end":11096.427,"text":"讓後面的這個長照可以得到很好的改善對於醫療跟整個國家的這個資源的幫助一定是非常非常明顯我想部長一定會很確認這個觀點那再過來我們還是希望照顧不中斷的原則之下那如何針對於持續要努力的長照3.0醫療長照的這個照顧整合能夠做資訊整合的無縫接軌那"},{"start":11097.767,"end":11119.785,"text":"剛剛也有提到那如果我們要擴大這個照顧的量能的話那上游跟承作醫院的負荷我們如何能夠同時來兼顧那最後就是有關於長照這個醫療這個資源的佈局跟銜接這個都是為了我們要共同努力的地方那其實資訊整合我相信大家都非常非常的"},{"start":11121.532,"end":11146.512,"text":"認為是重中之重尤其需要有更好的一個資訊整合的模式那醫療照顧整合依據部長你們今天提供的第七頁有關於醫療照顧整合的資訊的部分醫療跟照顧將透過大家醫計畫來整合在宅醫療在宅責任醫療等等來建構資訊管理平臺"},{"start":11148.153,"end":11162.265,"text":"那這個是希望透過大家的計畫來建置這個資訊管理平臺可是我們現在看到的就是PAC這兩個是不一樣的計畫那這樣的資訊平臺未來可以共用嗎"},{"start":11163.106,"end":11185.502,"text":"在處理上我們需要再注意哪一些的事情這個是我們很擔心如果他只偏待大家一計畫的所建置的這個資訊管理平臺那未來在針對長照PAC的銜接會不會造成資訊上的一些落差變成一個資訊孤島那如果這個落差存在的話"},{"start":11186.383,"end":11203.862,"text":"那我們的這個A個案管理如何能夠正確的落實讓他在這個服務裡面這麼關鍵的一個銜接工作能夠有效的來落實那這部分部長您的意見怎麼樣好 謝謝委員提出了非常重要的關鍵的點我們在3.0方向"},{"start":11207.486,"end":11236.163,"text":"就是把醫療跟長照結合不漏接每一個需要的人甚至讓他更加的富能能夠恢復正常提高生活的品質所以資訊的整合才能夠避免剛剛您提的資訊孤島或者重複的資源的浪費那這個部分在社區過去20年來我們健保署跟衛福部跟政府在社區醫療群的一個"},{"start":11237.523,"end":11262.797,"text":"資訊的努力方面就已經下了很大的功夫那以這樣的一個基礎我是覺得是最聰明跟最有效率的來結合後續不管是更多的預防保健長照的工作以這樣來講是最好的一個方向那至於現在實際上怎麼做是不是我們請健保署署長可以補充一下"},{"start":11263.157,"end":11291.084,"text":"好 委員好現在是這樣我們先雖然叫做大嘉義計畫可是它後面有一個資訊系統叫做嘉義大平台那最主要它就是以人為中心把它的資料整合不論你在哪一個醫療院所看的資料以人為中心整合在一起那同時把預防保健包含CDC國健署的這些預防保健的資料也都整合起來所以是以人歸人歸戶的概念那我們現在先做到的是醫療這一塊"},{"start":11292.344,"end":11310.556,"text":"那接著我們就要去接長照服務那一塊所以等於是我們後面有一個平台一個資訊平台在做整合資訊的整合所以我們下一步現在正在跟長照系統這邊嘗試要把它也把它歸人進來以人為中心做了整合因為這個人會變化"},{"start":11312.117,"end":11335.303,"text":"他本來過去可能是在家庭醫師計畫裡面有一天他中風了他就失能了所以其實他是一個連續性的所以我們才會以一個才不會變成過去這樣好多個系統對其實我們很期待就是透過這樣的資訊平台當一位變換或者是當他要回到社區的時候他可以透過AI的這些媒合的模式"},{"start":11335.743,"end":11364.403,"text":"他要到哪一個據點他應該執行哪一方面的復健或者是回家以後如何安排相關的一些就是從點對點的這種服務模式這樣的話才能夠完整至少就是以人為本的服務模式這個是很期待透過這一次的這個計畫能夠把這方面可以持續的來落實那我們再看再過來就是說有關於這個成長部分因為當初的"},{"start":11366.059,"end":11383.168,"text":"成長的預估是3.85%根據這個長照的需求那PAC的部分如果我們要擴大這個不管是年齡的放寬早發現的失智或者是未滿65歲的中風林書恩委員一直強調小於40歲的中風的這個族群已經占到將近15%那如何能夠讓這樣的服務量能"},{"start":11392.193,"end":11408.918,"text":"在考慮增加的同時也能夠造成因為醫院的負擔的情形之下如何能夠去改善它那人力跟復健的這個部分是不是能夠跟得上支付誘因是不是能夠平衡在這部分不知道部長或署長有沒有規劃"},{"start":11411.145,"end":11432.114,"text":"因為這個部分我們很感謝在健保方面都一直配合在做處理跟委員說明一下以目前我們參加PAC的乘坐醫院大概203家那他們的佔床率現在大概是差不多五成而已所以其實病床空間是有"},{"start":11432.754,"end":11447.995,"text":"那現在接下來當然要調整的就是說他的服務上的那些人力啦人力的標準啊那些那搭配著支付標準我們再來檢討不過呢還是得要有一些條件不然就會變成住院的延長"},{"start":11449.156,"end":11471.293,"text":"我們的PAC還是希望他是有復健的潛能的才進PAC的program不然還是應該要到長照不然就會變成我們PAC有三個月最長可以12週變成以後都變成延長住院的概念也不對那我們再來檢討看看適用上條件的這個調整我們再來檢討"},{"start":11472.693,"end":11499.178,"text":"因為我們也知道203家這樣的這個PAC的團隊可是資源相對可能都會集中在人口集中的都會區所以如何能夠讓這個區域的缺口根據這個需要鼓勵不管是中型或小型的醫院地區醫院等等來增加這方面的服務模式還有剛剛也提到其實包括復健師或者是其他相關的這些人才的"},{"start":11499.838,"end":11527.229,"text":"留置在這個比較偏遠的地方也都是很重要需要請部裡面或者是書裡面這邊來加強處理的部分也希望在未來的規劃上也把這些都考量進來那再過來就是有關於這個積極賦能我們剛有提到其實如果這些在急性期當中能夠積極賦能的話對於未來的這些所需要的資源就可以大幅的下降"},{"start":11528.129,"end":11540.997,"text":"那飲食呢事實上就是讓積極負能裡面在營養的補充得到最好的一個支持的部分我們也知道在日本他們對這個非常非常的重視所以在2002年他們就"},{"start":11543.599,"end":11567.778,"text":"根據這個日本接戶食品協議會去提供非常多的標章的處置或者是協助社會如何能夠知道在需要比較主角能力下降或者是需要有其他方式來進食的民眾有很好的資訊來得到好的這個相關的幫忙跟支持那這部分台灣相對來講"},{"start":11568.939,"end":11592.734,"text":"是沒有那麼樣的進展那麼樣的這個順利所以未來是不是能夠麻煩我們部裡面或者相關的單位能夠針對於這個長照通用設計飲食不管是提供指引也好或者是提供各類的要求讓質地的這個分布可以更符合民眾的期待在處理上有更精進的做法那這部分"},{"start":11593.434,"end":11616.819,"text":"需要的是長照師國健署甚至是營養單位共同來努力那這部分就要麻煩部長來要求相關單位來把這個部分可以精進的做進一步讓國民尤其是需要這一類食品的老人家也好或者是針對這個口腔咀嚼能力變得不好的民眾可以有效的得到指引"},{"start":11619.315,"end":11646.12,"text":"那個謝謝委員能夠關心到這個病人或者是長照的人的一個飲食的狀況因為如果能夠好好的指導他怎麼飲食或者是口腔的衛生把他照顧好然後選擇他想吃的食物以及他可以吃的食物其實我們可以讓我們的病人或者是我們的長者不需要去甕個鼻胃管"},{"start":11646.92,"end":11668.096,"text":"或是不必要的人工輸液營養這是非常重要的照顧的一個模式那這個都就是要有相關的人員的訓練當然以家屬的照顧來講我們也希望有指引就像日本這樣子日本在這方面真的是相當先進值得我們來學習那我們國健署也的確"},{"start":11669.037,"end":11685.517,"text":"也做出了一個比較一般老者長者的一個食品的指引我們未來會把它弄成更個別化來努力那預計什麼時候會是台灣五管人生的元年五管的喔就沒有管制的人生"},{"start":11686.161,"end":11704.936,"text":"我們從30年前就立下誓言表示只要安寧環和醫療的專業能夠更加的發揮讓我們對長者照顧的模式能夠更加的有專業我相信應該有更多的長者或病人"},{"start":11705.737,"end":11728.755,"text":"不太需要去用到不必要痛苦的鼻胃管這是我們台灣人性化的很重要的意義一個里程碑這個感謝王委員多年來的努力好 部長加油謝謝謝謝王委員 謝謝部長來 我們現在處理臨時提案只有一案而已那請宣讀"},{"start":11729.872,"end":11756.097,"text":"交求衛福部食藥署應全面落實行政院109年11月26日公布之進口豬肉汁全方位管理措施以維護國人食安健康及消費選擇權一 未查場不給進口未曾進口來台的肉品廠需經我派員查場後方得進口二 逐批查驗三 產地標示跟著肉品走肉品自大到小從進口商肉品廠"},{"start":11757.518,"end":11772.52,"text":"隨著販售通路一路下到店頭攤商四 政府嚴格稽查對於未依規定標示標示不實或檢驗不符規定的業者一律嚴懲重罰提案人委員王玉敏 陳金輝 陳昭芝宣讀完畢"},{"start":11776.823,"end":11804.753,"text":"黃議員不要說明好這個謝謝召委還有各位委員還有衛福部官員我想我提出來的這個臨時提案其實只是回到行政院在109年11月26號他自己所公布的進口豬肉之全方位管理措施這個完全所有的文字都是當時行政院對外公告的四大措施那"},{"start":11805.833,"end":11831.813,"text":"現在因為澳洲進口含有萊劑的豬肉所以我覺得這個中間從109年到現在我們的確有一些做法就是已經放掉了太鬆散那現在又發現有萊劑的豬肉所以應該要全面落實回到109年11月26號行政院自己所進行公佈的全方位管理措施保障國人的食安所以"},{"start":11832.473,"end":11849.389,"text":"以下的一二三四點 這個都不是我個人意見而是完全都是當時行政院所訂下的規範所以我相信在執行上面 如果政府是一致的那應該在執行上不會有致愛難省之處 以上 謝謝行政單位有沒有意見"},{"start":11855.098,"end":11872.492,"text":"謝謝委員的提案那這邊我們身為針對這個提案我們這邊做一些些研擬就4月29日5月6日衛福部實要屬於邊境抽P驗出高達70.24公噸含有萊克多巴胺之冷凍澳洲豬腳"},{"start":11874.341,"end":11899.329,"text":"且事發後仍維持2至10%一般抽批檢驗率未將強度提高至100%逐批查驗亦未擴大稽查已流入後市場端之肉品並於清查完畢前要求該業者暫停輸入肉品使民眾陷於食安風暴之恐慌中"},{"start":11900.149,"end":11916.229,"text":"有鑑於豬肉食品使用規範的廣泛等等那就國人特別在國人食品安全健康消費的選擇前以下四點做了第一個我們會加強"},{"start":11917.691,"end":11931.759,"text":"加強茶廠針對進口來台的肉品廠加強派員茶廠第二加強茶宴進口豬肉提升茶宴率第三落實產地標示"},{"start":11933.8,"end":11955.855,"text":"肉品自大到小從進口商肉品廠隨著販售通路一路下到店頭攤商會讓消費者一目了然自由選擇同時也清楚標示產地第四政府嚴格稽查不符標準必重罰對於未規定標示"},{"start":11958.417,"end":11980.04,"text":"標示不實或查驗不符規定的業者一定會嚴懲重罰 以上那個有的人需要修正的文字對不對你們修正的文字可以給其他的"},{"start":11981.4,"end":11994.772,"text":"委員看齁那第一個趕快給各位委員看第一個就是茶廠的部分你們會去茶廠嗎齁我們加強茶廠一定會所以澳洲的部分會去嗎我們會積極的規劃好謝謝不好意思先畫給大家先畫給大家這樣才有辦法討論"},{"start":12020.705,"end":12024.709,"text":"所以第二點竹皮查驗不要做嗎?我們一定會加強查驗"},{"start":12031.581,"end":12049.402,"text":"你查到那個人工智慧那個嘛,你如果查越多,比例就越多,到達某個程度就是百分之百了但是它是逐步的,用人工智慧加上精準查驗啦,不是說風吹草動就逐批"},{"start":12050.684,"end":12077.962,"text":"那一定要提高啊一定要提高這一次其實已經查出萊克多巴胺了嘛所以這個食藥署一定要提高你的查驗比例啊這個可以做嘛進口豬肉會提升查驗率這邊有提到這個提高的部分我也要求一定要做然後你那個第三點你剛剛念的就是那個溯源追蹤為什麼要刪除我們會做可以清楚的標示產地它其實的意義是一樣的"},{"start":12080.171,"end":12105.41,"text":"那你就是保留有什麼問題嗎意思一樣我就保留讓大家看起來比較安心吧你就是可以清楚標示產地溯源追蹤這樣可以嗎我們標示的產地的話就會標示說標示在澳洲進口的因為是豬肉的原產地原料之源產地是來自於澳洲來自於美國來自於哪個國家我知道就保留溯源追蹤四個字有什麼問題嗎"},{"start":12107.556,"end":12115.582,"text":"就保留就是說同時也可清除標示產地溯源追蹤這有什麼問題嗎為什麼溯源追蹤一定要刪除我不太懂如果意思是一樣的我是建議保留可以嗎"},{"start":12124.028,"end":12137.594,"text":"我想就按照委員的建議我們可以就保留這個溯源追蹤式對啊好不好越清晰越好嘛好所以我想要釐清一下你只標示產地叫做溯源追蹤嗎"},{"start":12140.263,"end":12166.784,"text":"副委員這部分因為溯源追蹤的時候是我們是在食安法25條跟25條項授權下來的所以我們根據那樣子的溯源追蹤是已經有對豬肉的編號嘛對不對它不是原產地有溯源追蹤是從哪邊來的對對對所以就是它雖然是美國廠美國產地它有不同的不同的廠出來的好像每一批來的不一樣嘛所以這是有溯源追蹤溯源追蹤的"},{"start":12171.587,"end":12194.198,"text":"好陳委員陳昭志委我今天早上第一個質詢我有提出很多的資料這個加強是形容詞加強不是數字因為2020年行政院講這麼清楚那幾個國家加拿大紐西蘭美國澳洲他們都說沒有只准美國的來租進口因為我們立了那個法案"},{"start":12195.439,"end":12204.928,"text":"然後到一直到目前為止他們都說是都是零檢出那這些他的承諾還在嗎然後蘇院長說不查場不准進口而且當時他說要先逐批查場"},{"start":12210.914,"end":12229.883,"text":"但是我查到當時那個豬肉的那個茶廠美豬事實上都沒有把報告放出來我催了很久之後食藥署才把他公告上網但是非常特別的他查了六家廠有五家根本不用來的他去查不要查那個做什麼只有一家用來的"},{"start":12230.623,"end":12248.695,"text":"所以后来我没有继续去追踪认识就逼着他们把茶厂报告放上去那今天我们回到这个原点我刚刚早上咨询讲得很清楚今天不是那个法案的问题法是0.01食药署说它0.01它低于它所以它OK的"},{"start":12249.695,"end":12275.521,"text":"但是民眾不要因為所有民進黨的利用我可以跟你找出至少20個從老柯算起當初都零減出因為民眾不要吃萊豬所以我們確實定的比國際還要嚴格但是突然間不知道為什麼國際的標準他就悄悄的就更動了然後讓這個沒有查場過的澳洲豬肉也進來所以我只是要他們"},{"start":12278.085,"end":12289.992,"text":"兌現他們當年的承諾這第一個不查場不給進口藥品也是這樣啊你沒有查過場不管你用什麼方式去查場我不管你書面查場還是到林場查場沒有查場的東西怎麼可以進口啊去年的那個生理食鹽水就是這樣來啊管理部加整個斷貨啊結果買進來都是沒查場啊沒有許可證的東西這個東西我不能再重演所以沒有查場怎麼准進口這是什麼時候改變的這個要先講清楚"},{"start":12305.522,"end":12321.972,"text":"現在先講清楚那不然就政府道歉好現在我們就先用盡量在後端採查那第二個逐批檢驗那也是蘇貞昌答應的啊逐批檢驗啊逐批檢驗你看就成效還可以還慢慢減少那我們不知道為什麼它突然間變成只剩下2到10%可是一檢出來就量就這麼大"},{"start":12326.455,"end":12332.417,"text":"那那個產地標示我一直在講產地標示這個是邱部長你們這邊要準備的產地標示這個來的含量這個是被列為這個雖然我們要保護我們的食安你一直在講但是你們也講不出來到底你對川普的談判因為美國要我們買美豬美牛他不要我們標示原產地原產地已經被認為說是一個障礙標標準準的貿易障礙就不准標示"},{"start":12352.344,"end":12366.99,"text":"好那你現在聚標示你要有能耐有這個本事去談判的時候你要這個堅守這個立場所以我覺得這個這一次的回覆都是形容詞我個人沒有辦法接受都是形容詞什麼叫加強啊什麼叫加強啊這個標示的東西才會這個這個多加強查驗然後加強這個什麼這個這個然後現在在規劃可是牛那個豬肉都進來了"},{"start":12381.144,"end":12398.252,"text":"所以我王偉宇雖然這樣提可是我還是堅持我還是堅持第一個不然你就要道歉你當初承諾的東西2020年是行政院的圖卡而且那時候他是為了很多他們認為是網路上的謠言他自己做了圖卡我現在沒有帶在身上我早上有秀給大家看"},{"start":12399.642,"end":12414.97,"text":"我們現在的查驗差不多幾%現在是按照我們過去的邊境的查查的狀況之後他其實會調整那目前是2到10%我們會按照委員的意見我們會做一些提升以上"},{"start":12415.31,"end":12443.361,"text":"那如果要做到除皮材那量很大喔對的確是邊境的人力目前其實是相當吃緊一直以來都是這樣子的狀況所以跟委員說明一下我們因為行政端我們就是訂了一個標準之後真的是按照那樣子來去精準的抽驗才是我們現在持續能夠努力的那委員有特別提到要提升我們一定會答應可以提升以上"},{"start":12445.542,"end":12464.213,"text":"你現在要加強查案學差不多提高到幾%啦差不多大約啦我們其實是希望能夠再往上提升在下一個階級其實是他有一個人工智慧的機制嘛你如果想一個沒過的我如果想一個比較壞的我就給你"},{"start":12465.814,"end":12480.095,"text":"加強功課嘛先這樣賣到一個聽到就好不是都要上課啦就是百分之百啦嘛我聽到覺得報告召委這邊這個叫做精準"},{"start":12482.017,"end":12499.646,"text":"原來是2到10%那因為雖然說沒有不及格理論上沒有不及格是一樣會2到10%那因為委員特別提到我們可以把下一個階層到20到50%的針對澳洲來的牛肉做這樣子查查不曉得這樣子的回覆是否合一"},{"start":12500.552,"end":12516.503,"text":"可能還是要有科學的制度啦你查了怎麼樣就幾%如果他的成績比較不好就提升甚至會提升到100%都有可能這個就是精準查驗嘛"},{"start":12517.691,"end":12542.794,"text":"因為現在就是已經查出那個澳洲的別的國家都沒有嘛現在就是澳洲豬肉已經含有萊克多巴胺所以當然在你們的行政權裡面你們自己可以針對高風險國人疑慮高的你們就可以優先去提高比例嗎過去這個向來行政權我今天才跟你們講過在你們的施行辦法裡面食藥署會有非常大的權利你說要"},{"start":12543.474,"end":12560.403,"text":"你說要提高就提高你說要百分之百完全都是決定在你們嘛那你們就應該要根據今天國會委員的關心國人的疑慮針對比較高風險的有疑慮的去提高嘛這個就是你們的權限嘛好不好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":12562.583,"end":12574.287,"text":"我有問題可以請問一下嗎好來請好謝謝主席那個我想要請石耀淑說明一下因為剛剛陳昭資委員堅持說那個零茶廠零進口當年我們在當時蘇院長的承諾應該如果沒有記錯的話應該是針對美國進口的肉品新設的廠廠對不對"},{"start":12582.08,"end":12611.38,"text":"對但是這部分你沒有說明啊然後就你可不可以說明一下到底我當時的理解跟剛剛陳偉文的說法好不好我覺得都還是要給我們一個說明好關於茶廠這件事情有沒有辦法弄出來是2022年行政院的這個自己的圖卡說只有美國來租事實因為他是在反那個謠言事實是只有美國來租會進口我今天早上我可以傳給大家我看現在有什麼方式我可以秀在這裡"},{"start":12615.819,"end":12643.988,"text":"有有有 我知道我知道部長你知道有人真的聽嗎不是啦 委員你現在給他說我現在是在問問題我不是問你 我是問石耀蘇 謝謝謝謝委員那我們對於這個了解是在109年11月26號提到的赴美茶廠是針對美國當時的茶廠有茶廠過後才會進來這個是確實我們有看到那至於澳洲是不能容我有一天點解釋就是說澳洲豬肉齁其實早年很久以前"},{"start":12644.528,"end":12664.526,"text":"在行政院農委會房檢局的時候就承諾系統性的開放同意澳洲豬肉的輸台那時候呢就是基於信賴保護原則輸入食品系統性的查驗辦法實施之前所以實施之後呢就變成柴油之前它就已經來了我們其實就選擇是相信就是信賴保護嘛實施之後呢"},{"start":12665.687,"end":12695.267,"text":"我們沒有針對豬肉但是整體在澳洲系統是牛豬羊鹿肉採認完整的系統性查驗考量我們對澳洲牛豬羊鹿肉的產品受同一個主管機關管理管理的系統相同我們有在106年執行過系統性的實地查核所以也採認了它的系統性查核所以112年1月13號簽合奉可之後所以這個是為什麼澳洲豬肉是可以進口的"},{"start":12695.687,"end":12722.824,"text":"那進口進來的時候出現有萊克多巴胺的其實我們是對於廠商貿易廠商裡面進口哪一家去進來的我們沒有特別因為整個系統性查核所以他們會對接到要進口什麼我們都尊重我們後市場端跟邊境尤其在邊境的時候同仁很努力的就是按照我們的標準在抽所以有抽到跟國人做公告也讓委員能夠了解這是我們現在的做法以上的說明 謝謝"},{"start":12723.684,"end":12751.106,"text":"容我補充一下我想這個議題從第八屆開始在座如果有第八屆的立法委員可能就會知道當時是從美牛都沒有進口所以美豬當然也是禁所以台灣過去其實就是禁止萊克多巴胺我們自己的豬農不能使用美牛也不可以進來美豬當然也不能進來所以在第八屆的時候那時候是全面禁止的一個情況"},{"start":12752.347,"end":12764.913,"text":"到後來美牛開放但是牛豬分離美豬不能開放但是到了民進黨執政的時候美豬要開放美豬要開放所以109年當時蘇貞昌院長才訂了這個管制措施要讓大家安心就是說含有萊劑也不能進來大家如果回過頭去看剛剛陳昭志委員講的是對的陳吉仲主委他對外講的時候他說只有美國的美豬含有萊劑"},{"start":12778.819,"end":12802.335,"text":"所以當時的查場就會特別針對美國但是現在各位連澳洲的也含有萊劑當時農委會告訴大家的是說美國含有萊劑所以當然是美國查場但現在澳洲已經有萊劑澳洲不查場嗎?食安的標準應該是一致的如果我們回到當時行政院109年他公告這幾項措施"},{"start":12803.115,"end":12831.317,"text":"不會說只有要針對美國的美豬要查場是因為當時要進口含有萊劑的美豬所以才特別講美國因為農委會告訴大家其他國家都沒有啦也不會進來那這樣子大家懂了嗎所以我們的食安標準應該是一致如果當時行政院的管制措施他為什麼說就是沒有查場的就不進口他是要給大家安心就是說經過了食藥署的查場確定這一個整個肉品廠"},{"start":12831.997,"end":12860.522,"text":"他這個是符合安全衛生的然後才要放行讓他進來所以剛剛署長提到那個的脈絡在更之前的那個跟這個其實已經是沒有關係就在109年之後如果當時蘇貞昌院長整個行政院做的這個管理措施是對的我覺得不應該因為時間的推移我們就去放鬆而是就是回到109年這樣的一個管制措施"},{"start":12864.038,"end":12889.419,"text":"謝謝周偉這邊我稍微簡單說明一下剛才講第一條加強茶廠那為什麼我講加強茶廠這件事情因為我剛才問同仁我說有錢沒出門嗎他說報告書上你要來種植他跟我說但是我想我們會優先把這個排到我們加強茶廠的一個優先好不好我想我們會加強我請問一下你澳洲的豬肉你以前是有沒有在茶宴"},{"start":12890.621,"end":12905.479,"text":"你說邊境的茶葉嗎 對邊境真的是一體試用我們都是抽茶的都一直在抽的所以你說一開始是農委會同意他們進來嗎對 這個是在幾乎是一百年之前你今天講信賴保護講了差不多十次了"},{"start":12906.707,"end":12932.633,"text":"那農委會准他那你就從來沒有去查過他們的廠我們查他的是查農委會沒有去查他們的牛肉羊肉在106年有去你們是食藥署去對對我們會跟他們一起去然後去查完之後呢因為他們在那邊的牛豬羊鹿肉是一起的所以我們就會變性那這一次三批超量那三批是退還是銷毀"},{"start":12934.113,"end":12949.227,"text":"原則上它沒有超過標準它是沒有違規的行為所以我們其實是會按照我們現在管制標準其實是會放行交由廠商再處理所以都是流露做肉包 貢丸通通照照去早上"},{"start":12950.248,"end":12964.539,"text":"林淑雯講的是我覺得她講的很有道理她說她有資格不吃嘛所以你要標示產地是很起碼的要求那個做得到吧對這個後市場端"},{"start":12965.92,"end":12987.607,"text":"我們對於所謂的散裝的以及對於所謂包裝的其實對於牛肉的原料的原產地其實會標示假如是製造是在台灣製造嘛但是牛肉原料原產地在澳洲我們就標到澳洲去了豬肉牛肉都這樣我們有這樣子的標示的以上說好 還有問題嗎"},{"start":12989.548,"end":12990.21,"text":"這問題太敏感了這已經沒有三個禮物了"},{"start":12999.764,"end":13005.868,"text":"行政院的圖卡行政院的圖卡2020年他告訴我們因為他很多人在謠傳他認為他是事實是什麼只有美國萊豬會進口到台灣然後其他的他說加拿大出口不含有些人從未進來澳洲他說國內市場幾乎不用你這是一查就查這麼多總量是微乎其微所以只有美國會進來只有美國萊豬會進來"},{"start":13029.281,"end":13032.904,"text":"所以不要用這一張說他每個都要裁判這個只是用美國不是用澳洲只有美國來諸位進口2022年我剛剛說請不要翻頁這個還是你們的黨統一黨在執政不要翻這個才是行政院的圖卡好謝謝"},{"start":13047.096,"end":13049.598,"text":"我們沒有開放啊 署長我們沒有開放第一個我們沒有開放我們只開放美國來做進口第二個您剛剛已經查出這麼多批了你這個2到10怎麼沒有立刻矯正呢"},{"start":13077.656,"end":13099.652,"text":"就是說你茶套這麼多量那現在才讓委員說你們要不要提高這個茶葉量現在就是不行再回到我們還是回到左邊行政院為最高指導原則對吧你們不能否認吧行政院是最高指導原則除非行政院出來認錯修改說他當初答應人民的他現在都做不到偷偷巧巧的就有其他的國家的萊豬進來了就這樣就這麼簡單行政院是為了屁啊才做那張卡的"},{"start":13106.063,"end":13116.843,"text":"謝謝委員主席我可以再提問一下嗎根據這張圖卡在左邊跟右邊應該是在講不同的事情吧右邊就是剛剛食藥署說的它是針對美國的部分未成茶廠不可以進口是嗎署長"},{"start":13119.085,"end":13133.958,"text":"是所有沒有進口所有沒有進口可是左邊我們列出來的資料是在那之前你剛說性愛保護原則其實就已經有開始進口澳洲豬肉澳洲一路以來其實都有進口豬肉所以我覺得要理解這個資訊左邊跟右邊邏輯應該是剛說的那樣謝謝"},{"start":13138.322,"end":13161.912,"text":"好那我想是这样当年是不是只有美国有这个来猪那其他国家没有我想或许在当年有当年的时空背景跟状态那现在因为进口商确实他进了澳洲的猪肉那他进口的时候他觉得是没有来迹的但是现在却发现查验却有了那我觉得是这样子啦"},{"start":13163.092,"end":13179.502,"text":"如果大家認為說這個時候可能其他國家會陸續會有這個來株加萊劑的這個狀況那沒關係我們也很贊成就是說食藥署可以到國外去加強你們茶氣的強度"},{"start":13181.463,"end":13206.162,"text":"这个都是可以那我也不晓得是说今年署长有没有时间做这样安排但是呢我想这个旅费统三这件事情它是已经发生了所以搞不好食药署我也不知道你们是不是到底有没有钱可以出去国外茶厂这个你们也要讲清楚你们不能一边说希望人家去国外茶厂结果又把人家旅费全部删光光"},{"start":13207.344,"end":13214.557,"text":"要人家做事又不給人家錢那真的很奇怪的事情啊好所以我就提出我的看法是這樣好"},{"start":13218.564,"end":13233.41,"text":"陳道志委員你有堅持要當初他們答應的是美國萊豬來可以進來那如果是澳洲我們都澳洲可以進口但是澳洲裡面是不能含萊的因為只有來美國萊豬可以進來什麼時候悄悄的悄悄的萊豬就進來了所以沒有茶場嘛一定要茶場"},{"start":13240.339,"end":13265.942,"text":"要查場然後進來那進來之後如果你可以看他你的檢驗率等等等等你可以慢慢放鬆這些規範是可以我現在就是要求這個當初的這麼清楚的政治承諾你不可以當作沒有嘛不可以直接髮夾彎嘛不可以當作沒這件事嘛啊不然行政院要出來道歉啊那趕快查場澳洲趕快去查場然後沒關係啊只要標示清楚大家要吃不吃說不定很好吃說不定大家很願意吃但那不是問題"},{"start":13267.463,"end":13294.456,"text":"那不是問題就是說源頭你答應的是源頭行政院你答應你告訴人民是這樣結果這不知道這幾年來悄悄的什麼時候都進來了連來澳洲的萊豬都進來本來不能進來啊他說只有美國萊豬可以進來啊我的重點就是在這個地方你自己放的圖卡左邊就已經有了嘛我的重點就在這個地方會有半年都看不懂的認識字的都看得懂還有邏輯的應該都看得懂啦來主席我可以再確認一次嗎"},{"start":13295.851,"end":13313.804,"text":"好 現在主席如果剛陳英文說的那個旅費國外旅費通山六成這件事情應該確實是不得了用而且確實是呼應了剛剛署長突然說要去總結那如果要去總結但是我要提的是國外旅費我們還有哪些重要的事情不能今天好像這個事情"},{"start":13314.604,"end":13334.496,"text":"藍白的委員關心我們就把國外旅費放在這裡所以也許也可以請署長告訴我們你們現在謹慎而且不得流用的國外旅費的預算到底還可能用在什麼地方而且是事關國人的食安健康會不會後續其他的事情又出來的時候那國人對你們有所期待我們如何回應國人的期待畢竟所有的公務機關都是要為人民服務"},{"start":13335.276,"end":13355.807,"text":"那接下來我剛講你剛一直強調過去信賴保護原則下在農委會時代我們跟澳洲的合作關係那如果這個你剛講的部分是回應這個圖卡左半邊我還是要拜託署長再清楚說明一次讓更多在場所有關心這個議題不管是現在所有的公務人員或者是委員們理解這件事情然後一路才回溯下來應該這樣才比較合理喔謝謝"},{"start":13359.924,"end":13382.797,"text":"謝謝委員這邊的讓我有機會進一步說明那其實西部的旅費的部分呢我沒有辦法馬上現在馬上call停回來我可以做書面的完整的來去說明整體的那原則上最重要的其實這一次在WHA的會議裡面有跟部內的長官們一起去對於WHA重要的會議我們進去前去宣導宣揚"},{"start":13384.258,"end":13411.829,"text":"那第二部分呢 各位提到說澳洲的這個部分因為澳洲的確在於有一點點我們在做實案的時候特別提到說其實是約定俗成已經是傳統上都接受的所以我們沒有特別在針對這個去查那舉個例子因為澳洲它其實已經可以用所謂的萊克多巴胺這個國家所以我去查的時候它就是可以用萊克多巴胺的國家裡面查的場"},{"start":13412.689,"end":13430.499,"text":"所以我查這場他還是可以用萊克多巴胺他的牛肉還是他的豬肉也還是會有這種東西所以我就變成說我去查的目的性是要去查這個場他的關鍵點是要看他有沒有萊克多巴胺他不用查他就已經告訴我他是有了那個邏輯上面會是這樣因為他就允許嘛"},{"start":13436.417,"end":13455.494,"text":"那對於假如對如他衛生管理的部分這個部分衛生管理部分因為約定俗成的確是因為這麼多年以來澳洲來的牛的豬肉其實在國內相對於其他國家其實更有所謂的reputation他其實是大家大家信任度是更高的所以"},{"start":13455.954,"end":13470.543,"text":"反而是因為這種前提之下一直以來是這樣所以我們就用過去的一個經驗那也過去的一些剛才講的信賴保護的前提之下呢才會沿用然後沒有特別去查藏來來我們是要處理臨時聽不要失焦休息兩分鐘跟他們兩個人說說不然便當了吃便當了吃吃的比較不會火來"},{"start":13484.537,"end":13484.557,"text":"對呀"},{"start":13500.131,"end":13500.471,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":13963.212,"end":13963.272,"text":"主席"},{"start":13985.94,"end":13988.721,"text":"針對國安食安健康及消費選擇前一加強茶廠針對進口來台的肉品廠加強派員茶廠"},{"start":14000.854,"end":14024.029,"text":"二 加強查驗進口豬肉提升查驗比率第三 落實產地標示那最後四個字的部分呢回復到溯源追蹤那第四項呢沒有改變 以上那用加強查想吧"},{"start":14032.292,"end":14043.24,"text":"這包括對因為我就沒有特別針對一個國家但是我們心裡會有一個數那這邊跟委員特別做這樣的報告那王一民委員的臨時提案那我們就"},{"start":14054.076,"end":14062.838,"text":"叫修正通過 沒見好 通過臨時提案全部處理完畢 接下來我們請李坤成委員發言謝謝主席我請"},{"start":14084.269,"end":14087.972,"text":"邱部長先喝口水再上來我們今天約會會通過兒童托育服務法"},{"start":14104.919,"end":14127.911,"text":"有報告 應該會核定那這個我有看到就是說這個就是專為0到2歲的托育利益的專訪然後其中有一項就是說我們保留監視的影像這個儲存30天 然後上傳雲端特別是針對我們的托育機構嘛 對不對其中是不是有這一項那這一項之前是不是也有在做"},{"start":14130.458,"end":14157.751,"text":"我們之前有一個這個拖延中心監視錄影設備設置及資訊管理利用辦法我們之前是不是有這個辦法我們之前就有可是它是儲存在拖延中心裡面沒有上傳雲端所以我們現在有一個監管雲對我們日後就是我們希望是能夠上傳在地方政府的雲端那現在就是說各個這一個不管是公托私托也有對不對應該是全面性的"},{"start":14158.896,"end":14184.579,"text":"目前公司裡在自己的通訊中心都有都有嘛對不對但是他們就是自己保存沒有上傳到雲端所以我們現在是要求是各個縣市政府都要設立這個監管雲嗎那經費就是各個縣市政府自己來處理嗎中央我們補助他們中央會補助中央會補助這個地方政府那是只針對這個托育機構公共的托育機構嗎"},{"start":14186.301,"end":14200.553,"text":"我們法令通過之後我們就會補助他就是公司裡都要上雲端都要上雲端就對了然後就是保存30天30日因為其實其實我們也擔心的其實很多這個案件就是說發現說保存在自己的這一個這個脫鈎機構裡面你萬一啦"},{"start":14204.456,"end":14228.203,"text":"發生事情的時候那通常不知道為什麼這個影片就會找不到所以我們就上場運動當然就是說怎麼去使用它要有相關的配套的措施這個也要兼顧到這一個兒童他們的人權那也包含這個教保員他們的人權我覺得這個就是說這個相關的配套措施要來做好那我再請教一下"},{"start":14228.723,"end":14236.773,"text":"因為現在今天是討論這個長照3.0那我們這一個長期照護師的師長也有來嘛那現在我再討論一個就是獨老的問題獨老的問題那現在就是說按照數據來講的話我這裡有2024年的一個數據新北市是全台灣獨老最多的縣市"},{"start":14247.866,"end":14262.796,"text":"總計有18.9萬人然後其實包含這個台北市高雄市也有那我不知道這個衛福部有沒有去統計就是說那到底我們現在這個獨老的狀況是怎麼樣就是說你超過65歲然後在家裡面只有你一個這個長者在有沒有這個數據"},{"start":14264.827,"end":14285.015,"text":"那請那個理事長非常感謝委員的關心我跟委員報告我們現在對於所謂獨老我們事實上是有一定的定義就主要指的就是說你的譬如你的這一個子女就兩人兩人都65歲以上這是第一個情況第二個情況可能就是說你有子女可是他不在你所居住的這一個縣市縣市喔就是那個"},{"start":14290.726,"end":14306.832,"text":"在你現在目前的縣市之外就是你的那個照管的那一個的這一個區域嘛那以這一個以這個定義來說的話我們現在目前全台有五萬五萬五千一百二十九人這是有列冊的是不是有列冊關懷"},{"start":14308.973,"end":14324.284,"text":"但是我看這個數據也不一樣啊審計部是說五萬多但是你們自己的這個數據是39萬然後內政部更高內政部是六十幾萬報告委員這個事實上是那個定義的問題內政部他們那邊是指就是說你那個是指那個戶是指那個戶數"},{"start":14326.065,"end":14355.383,"text":"那我們的定義比方就是說虛關懷者虛關懷就是我剛剛說的嘛就是說你要符合這兩個要件那其實範圍滿大你們是以縣市比如說好那今天在我三重對然後如果說家裡面有一個65歲自己一個人居住的然後呢可是他子女呢一定要在這一個台北才算嗎那如果說他是在在蘆洲那蘆洲可能稍微近一點啦那在板橋那邊那這樣就這樣就不算了是不是"},{"start":14357.096,"end":14360.809,"text":"那個我們主要的是第一個當然他是自己一個人住"},{"start":14361.462,"end":14388.304,"text":"然後第二個是說他的子女沒有辦法就近的協助他對 可是你們的範圍太大了是跨縣市喔如果跨峽的話大概在鄰近的我們應該是有縣市就是鄰近的部分我們其實是應該是會第一個是他的這個縣市政府可能會評估啦他的子女是不是能夠照顧他如果不能關懷他那他也可以跟我們提出來我們也會列入在我們的獨老的名冊上我意思就是說你們在用跨縣市"},{"start":14389.734,"end":14406.059,"text":"那如果是在不是在是同樣的縣市但是不同區那多少人數應該會更多應該這樣講就是說當然戶籍裡面單獨一戶的人就是剛剛提到的那個大概是戶政的資料他的人數是多的"},{"start":14406.519,"end":14432.295,"text":"可是我們各地方政府在做獨老的這個關懷方式第一個是他可以表達他有需要關懷那這個叫做我們所謂的列冊那我們到今年底大概去年的六月大概是五萬六千人那今年又增加了大概有六萬人那大概我們目前的定義是這個樣子我是討論定義啦我是說你們現在定義是放的就是說比較寬啦就是說你是要跨縣市捏"},{"start":14433.755,"end":14453.052,"text":"是不是 比如說你在新北 三重 你要跨到基隆 跨到台北然後家裡面只有一個人 這才算是獨老那我意思是說 如果他是住三重但是子女可能在板橋 這樣就不算沒有 他也可以說他有需求 我們也會列入第三個條款就是他認為他有需要 我們就會把他列進來"},{"start":14454.233,"end":14475.07,"text":"那現在就是說你們對於獨老的照顧有沒有列在你們這個長照3.0裡面我先做兩個回覆第一個就是說剛剛說的你現在說的這一個39萬跟這一個我們6萬中間有相差28萬那我必須要承認這個我們可能有低估"},{"start":14475.73,"end":14491.642,"text":"所以我們現在目前其實賴清德總統他也非常關心這個問題所以我們現在目前會有一個我們現在目前會有一個計畫跟地方政府這邊大家共同我們必須要來做一次全國性的一個設備然後把這一個人數我想就是說真的需要關心的我們會把它提高我覺得需要做一個調查對 沒錯"},{"start":14494.604,"end":14515.735,"text":"這個部分也跟委員報告我們已經跟內政部那邊已經開過幾次會了我們這個部分計畫會最近會來推出這是第一個重點第二個重點就是說我們現在目前如果說你有這一個如果是其實跟委員報告其實你雖然是獨老可是也不見得就一定會需要受到照顧因為有些長輩可能我覺得他覺得live alone可能"},{"start":14516.275,"end":14531.905,"text":"他自己就想要這樣他也不想要受到人家的打擾所以我們現在最重要是有關懷需求者那有關懷需求的話我們現在目前就是說3號3.0這邊會把他列入那這個列入的話就是除了擴大我們現在目前的1966那個部分之外另外我們會加強有關於這剛剛說的獨老的訪視"},{"start":14535.219,"end":14550.577,"text":"就是說這獨老房子現在是各個縣市政府他們自己社會局在做是他們社會局但是我有一些都是民間自己團體在做像一些獨老送餐那些都是民間團體自己在做的包圍那些有一些是他自己其實因為我在台中當過社會局長"},{"start":14551.818,"end":14570.377,"text":"有很多事實上是我們社會局我們委託我們用那個我們用委辦的方式就是說我們那個名冊給他之後然後呢我們來由他來做送餐我是希望說你們長照3.0把這個獨老這個有需要照顧的要把它列進去啦那有時候他"},{"start":14571.198,"end":14599.611,"text":"他有時候老人家會覺得說我不需要你的照顧但實際上他可能有需要啊所以不是說說我不需要你的照顧那你就啊不用就不用照顧但實際上他可能老人家有說面子或是怎麼樣我覺得這個東西你們自己要去除了他主觀的意願之外一些客觀的一些條件你們也要去做評估啊好的OK好不好好今天就先這樣好謝謝四位理委員謝謝部長翁曉琳翁曉琳翁曉琳委員不在廖偉強委員質詢謝謝"},{"start":14612.043,"end":14613.19,"text":"謝謝主席有請邱部長"},{"start":14618.536,"end":14632.68,"text":"委員好部長好部長長照2.0即將期滿那也要迎接長照3.0是的那也打算放寬我們你們衛福部也打算放寬3.0的試用範圍那在長照3.0上路前因為2.0版本的實施經費從105年開始是從47.97億大概是48億左右到了去年是828億成長了大概17倍"},{"start":14645.003,"end":14658.252,"text":"那我想要請教一下因為我在資料裡面沒有看到請教未來十年的財務規劃跟裁員說明好 謝謝委員的關心是不是容我請理事長跟委員報告"},{"start":14659.678,"end":14688.958,"text":"感謝委員對於這個問題的關心我跟委員報告我們現在目前的長澳基金到今年上個月已經累積到2036億就是說這個是我們現在目前已經有一個長澳基金的一個累積那也這個裡面根據長福法第15條的規定主要事實上是從菸稅還有房地合一稅還有一證稅那我跟委員報告我們以我們現在目前的使用率跟我們現在目前的退估我跟委員報告10年之內沒有問題"},{"start":14689.56,"end":14689.681,"text":"沒有問題 財務"},{"start":14691.915,"end":14715.712,"text":"財源沒有問題財務也無虞嘛那根據第15條第3項第2項第3款的規定就算是這裡面如果說有使用率有增加有出現deficit的話那政府還是我們有多重財源那政府最後會負擔保責任會再去補這樣子會用補的方法財源無虞好財源無虞很好"},{"start":14719.375,"end":14747.935,"text":"那另外大家都知道長照人力也面臨不足那這個年齡層也是逐漸越來越高那所以想要請教未來如果擴大適用的話會需要更多的人力那請問目前增加的長照人力需求推估跟服務需求的人口推估大概是多少那再來就是服務的需求人口推估有沒有包含對於不同失能等級的人數的推估也就是這個研究的部分其實這跟財務都息息相關"},{"start":14750.046,"end":14768.479,"text":"跟委員報告齁 這個裡面牽涉到就是說就是那個需求啦齁那簡單來說一個是供給端一個需求端供給端需求端的部分我們現在目前齁失能力的話我們現在是以這個13.6813.3那失能力是以7.99這樣下去估算我們就可以估算出一個人一個需求的部分"},{"start":14769.44,"end":14795.509,"text":"那供給數的部分的話我們現在目前最主要事實上是造福源造福源我們現在目前是10萬嘛那10萬的部分這裡面我們還會特別是有關機構的部分我們會來強化那現在就是不足啊對不對那我想要另外請問剛剛還有一個問題就是你有針對不同的這個失能等級去做人數的推估嗎因為他可能會需要的需要的服務和細緻度也不一樣嘛好不好所以其實我講我問這個是要提醒你們"},{"start":14796.289,"end":14824.528,"text":"细致的这个需求供给财务都环环相扣那包含提供服务的人这个是一个很大的问题所以我就进一步告诉你因为根据卫福部你们长照2.0的统计居家照顾B等级的部分在全国服务结构中平均是到达了占比是62.2%但他人力的负荷是持续的增加2023年的时候全国平均每位这个照顾服务员需要服务10.8位长辈"},{"start":14825.427,"end":14853,"text":"那甚至在台北市還高達17.7他要照顧17.7位所以目前長照人力負荷已經嚴重的超標那對於這麼高的負荷你們要不要具體的減輕人力負擔的方案好非常感謝委員幫委員那個可能就是我們統計上面我想再跟委員再做一個再請教但是根據我們的一個估計應該是如果是全國的話應該是平均應該是一個造福源服務6.72"},{"start":14855.141,"end":14869.398,"text":"這是2023年的數據2024年是6.88而不是委員剛剛所說10因為你剛剛說10那個可能是以你那個所謂ABC的B據點可是我們要算全國所以我剛剛講的就是特別針對居家照顧的B的部分"},{"start":14870.378,"end":14887.912,"text":"所以我剛剛就說了就是在這個部分也是很就是從我們查到的數據這個部分是特別的高沒關係我告訴你因為根據這個居家服務聯盟的統計指出照顧服務員的結構老化平均年齡也都超過了50歲25歲以下僅佔3%這是居家服務聯盟的統計數據然後你整體的人力成長也才1.3%"},{"start":14893.937,"end":14913.898,"text":"所以我剛剛講的就是看到他已經出現了這個問題所以我現在才說你們有沒有好好的去盤點你們缺了多少你要怎麼增加因為現在看起來就是很困難嘛所以你可能會說有增加待遇啦等等的我看你們報告裡面有可能有提到一些可是我想喔這是短期之內不是這麼簡單可以解決的所以並不是口"},{"start":14914.278,"end":14938.261,"text":"口號式的方式希望可以更細緻去推動因為我現在就要問下一題了因為長照2.0你的給付的薪資實施之後其實我也看到這個居家照服員的薪資也提高了從3.2萬大概提高到5萬到7萬好像我看到的數字是這樣我看到數據有這樣的情況所以它看起來不錯可是其實它同時也引發了一件事情就是"},{"start":14939.122,"end":14959.534,"text":"就是發現這個住宿型的機構跟醫療機構專業人才也是大幅的流失可能會跑到這裡來那所以會導致我們的護理師導致我們職能治療師的短缺那剛好這些也都是我們衛福部在主管的所以它整體而言就是你的供給量就是這麼多結果你裡面的比例就失衡了所以"},{"start":14961.135,"end":14980.467,"text":"我想要告诉你的是那你们要怎么协作或是你要怎么解决这样的问题因为你单点你解决了这个提高他的待遇结果发现这边的人就跑过来了所以这是导致了整个医疗的不平均失衡所以我这个问题就是说那你要怎么去做你要怎么跨单位协调你要怎么样去达到他的平衡是"},{"start":14981.588,"end":15001.46,"text":"包委員我想委員對於這塊真的是非常非常專門而且點出重要的問題那我跟委員報告現在目前就是有關於這個人力的部分我們現在特別是有關於這一個居扶員的部分我們現在有這個策略主要我們現在目前是希望就是說區分這裡面有這個核心跟比較屬於這一個不要說邊"},{"start":15006.103,"end":15029.068,"text":"沒有身體接觸的啦這是一個策略另外第二個就是說在機構的部分夜間的部分我們會來強化從新南向國家像印尼還有還有這一個越南引進中階勞動力好次長我剛先點出問題因為時間有限請你們把你們檢討和具體想要做的具體的實施情況不是大標示的可以交一份報告到本席辦公室"},{"start":15029.428,"end":15056.598,"text":"好的然後以及我另外加一個因為時間有限了其實長照3.0的規劃核心是醫療照顧整合嗎是沒錯那所以包含你們有推出什麼出院準備服務啊大家醫計畫啊資訊管理平台的建置啊我也想要了解一下目前這些整合這個機制的推動進度跟你的關鍵績效指標KPI是什麼你們的你們怎麼去看待這件事情達到有沒有達標先一併的提供給我那另外我要請署長那個我們時效署長"},{"start":15058.399,"end":15059.02,"text":"好 感謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":15077.59,"end":15093.963,"text":"這邊跟委員做報告那我們在邊境抽驗完之後只要抽驗了我們就會上大概是每一個假如放行是前一天放行隔天的上午11點我們就會更動所以我們在這一次兩批的因為抽驗到所以你認為很精準"},{"start":15094.503,"end":15116.438,"text":"我們是盡量能夠達到精準但是抽菸呢是是random的百分比的沒有辦法在百分之百我們盡量能夠接近好那我也問一下部長那我也相信這個我們豬肉儀表板的公信力希望那上週也質詢之前也有問到部長其實農業部網站也有寫其實什麼進口豬肉只佔台灣消費的10%影響不大對嗎"},{"start":15120.666,"end":15143.778,"text":"看起來現在的狀況是這樣子你覺得是這樣嗎整體進口的豬肉跟國內豬肉佔比的確是1比9的比例但是我想要請你們看一下PPT那為什麼豬肉儀表板上面出現的是24%然後何況這幾年三年平均是15%那今年爆成60%到市佔率的24%所以這到底準還是不準"},{"start":15147.119,"end":15160.859,"text":"這邊跟委員說進一步報告那個是國內的豬肉的占比的部分是我們抽驗的時候的比例那其實國內的豬我們放心國外的豬我們沒有那麼放心所以國外的進口就會抽的比例高"},{"start":15161.4,"end":15178.954,"text":"所以這兩個就有一個蠻大的落差對就表示說我們對國外進口的我們其實是眼睛睜得更大抽驗比例會更高的來去做這件事那這兩件事是要統合嗎還是你覺得不需要這兩個數字因為這樣子很讓人覺得很擔憂這個供薪力到底因為兩個數字一個你剛剛說1比90%現在這裡24%那這樣子大家看了會不會覺得說怎麼會這樣一個是實際上的消費端對一個是我們抽驗的"},{"start":15188.382,"end":15214.357,"text":"那你看到抽菸跟消費端有很大的落差嘛這樣會讓人家更擔心喔 署長你這樣講就代表你抽菸就不准嘛就是因為他的邏輯是在因為國外進來的我們比較不放心而且呢因為現在也允許美國相關的豬肉國際的豬肉 雄來克多巴胺等等可是說國外進來比較不放心所以我們就特別會去有比較高一點點的比例來做抽菸"},{"start":15215.017,"end":15232.024,"text":"可是這就是這兩天大家在吵的嘛就是說這個吃了再多也不會有太大的不良影響所以然後你又說對外國其實又很嚴格那這又很好玩了如果說你覺得都沒影響的話那法規上為什麼本土的要臨檢出那這不就是一個雙標的狀況出現了嗎"},{"start":15235.103,"end":15257.813,"text":"我想在訂定這個標準的過程當中其實在110年的時空背景底下我們對於進口豬肉裡面的豬肉的萊克多巴胺的殘留訂了這樣子結果之後那我們有訂標準之後我們就是加強的一個查緝的一個概念因為剛剛這樣子講起來其實邏輯上有一些矛盾啦所以我覺得主要就是要符合民眾安心的標準"},{"start":15258.633,"end":15287.495,"text":"再者剛剛說如果兩種豬肉混在一起那消費者怎麼判斷這兩個豬肉有沒有混到會不會產生他們的疑慮消費者會不知道所以我想因為包含這次的廠商我想這就是一個國人安心的標準你剛才說安心署長不是安全署長安心的標準所以你看這次進口的廠商他說進口到萊豬對他的商譽也有危害所以不僅要求他銷毀不進入市場然後也跟消費者致歉"},{"start":15288.195,"end":15297.7,"text":"所以我覺得這個東西就是我們今天一直在講的事情就是一個是安心民眾安心的狀況那講到安心的話部長這個有關於美國農業行銷署他有一個叫做NFBAP的制度不曉得部長知不知道"},{"start":15307.651,"end":15330.026,"text":"這邊我跟部長報告過好那針對這一塊呢我們覺得我們也非常非常積極的鼓勵未來假如是國內的進口的能夠往這個方向走對樂見其成部長簡單來講署長因為我想可能很多人不見得知道這個叫做就是從未添加乙型受體素的這個深處的養殖場好那這就是所謂的NFBAP的制度"},{"start":15330.726,"end":15359.794,"text":"所以也是說這個2022年的時候農業部跟食藥署有去查場的有六間廠去美國查場的六間廠那在這個NFBAP上面好像都是在這上面的名單請問是不是跟委員做進一步報告我們後來看到的是有特別有這樣子的廠那USDA美國農業部他也是在業者裡面的自主標示我覺得是自主標示那請問你們去查的那六間是不是都屬於在這個名單上的"},{"start":15360.735,"end":15381.289,"text":"有在六間裡面有五間裡面五間嘛然後一間不在你會看到有一間不在對有一間是不在的那我想要問一下所以我國從進口美珠的這些來源的牧場總共有幾場那是不是都在這53個名單裡還是說其實就像你剛剛說有一間不是所以其實是也有沒有參加這個計畫的來源是不是"},{"start":15382.495,"end":15391.735,"text":"我們在按照所謂的系統性查核向下 讓系統查核之後能夠允許的他們就可以做進口 那大概是這樣子的一個狀態"},{"start":15393.297,"end":15414.859,"text":"所以署長我想要講的事情是其實剛剛也是在吵當初所謂行政院他就是說這個所有的萊豬都從美國來那其他的地方都沒有查所以最終我們要講的事情是通過這些事件我們就是再一次的希望我們的食藥署可以讓人家感讓民眾感到安心讓民眾感到安心你應該要"},{"start":15416.021,"end":15430.899,"text":"更加積極因為你一直說安心的署長可是你一開始講的話好像是說這個跟科學違背所以我就好像開放了讓大家感覺到沒有被保護的感覺所以我想要小結一下我是不知道衛福部有沒有什麼壓力"},{"start":15431.92,"end":15441.005,"text":"但我知道這個本來大張旗鼓其實要號稱要保障全民食安的這個安心的主管機關有剛剛講到有這個雙標的狀況出現包含讓人家覺得為什麼外國可以有來濟那國內不一定要零檢出其實這讓民眾也對於食安憂心忡忡"},{"start":15453.132,"end":15478.709,"text":"所以對於國外號稱沒有萊劑的食品又違背了自己過去的承諾雖然當時不是你們做但是沒有好好的去考察跟把關所以希望這一部分請我們衛福部回去檢討並且落實今天的臨時提案那我最後還是要跟署長講一句話還要強調一下其實不是通過一句透過科學檢驗就當作明顯死金牌其實安心跟安全一直是兩回事"},{"start":15479.569,"end":15496.947,"text":"所以部長如果沒有想清楚這件事的話其實讓民眾實在安心這件事情是做不到的所以這部分請我們的部長跟署長回去好好的再去思索一下應該怎麼去做才可以讓民眾安心謝謝謝謝謝謝另外一邊謝謝部長來 接著我們請陳培宇委員質詢"},{"start":15507.91,"end":15526.85,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我先請社家署 謝謝先請部長 抱歉抱歉抱歉 請問就好來好部長我想要跟你討論一下但我相信這個議題應該在衛福部討論過也跟縣市政府討論過就是我現在任養的服務選區是連江縣跟金門縣"},{"start":15527.691,"end":15556.371,"text":"那現在連江縣就是大家認識的馬祖是全台灣唯一沒有部立醫院的縣市那我聽地方人士跟我們討論過說當年也曾經有討論過可是會不會是縣市政府他們沒有這個意願那導致我們現在很多事情都要後送那後送的話可能有很多居民會擔心到會不會是我跟政治人物比較熟我比較容易被後送什麼的好像這個明明是照顧人民的醫療權益卻變成某一種政治工作的福利"},{"start":15557.291,"end":15580.902,"text":"我覺得我們衛福部有需要對這件事情公開說明一下部長你怎麼看過去跟連江縣政府的溝通跟未來我們可以怎麼跟鄉親交代是的非常謝謝委員關心我們連江縣的醫療連江縣的醫療其實是我們投注部裡面投注很多的資源的一個地方包括最近我們跟他們買了一個通貨買CTCT跟"},{"start":15585.08,"end":15605.055,"text":"還有加上AI所以其實可以很清楚的來看出病人的一個問題那至於說身口不利醫院裡面他們我們當然過去幾年都有互動但是後來是連江縣表示就是表示說沒有這種意願這樣子是因為錢的關係嗎部長這個醫療資源的分配的問題你覺得是他們是因為錢的關係嗎"},{"start":15613.383,"end":15637.663,"text":"因為什麼關係我大概也不敢去臆測但是從過去到現在我整個追溯和整個過程原來是有這種意願但是真的討論以後他們還是覺得保持這樣子是好的但是基本上醫護會是絕對就是說有需要我們就待會提供"},{"start":15639.218,"end":15665.107,"text":"媽祖也是在做 其實很多醫院 台北的很多醫院我知道有在做醫療協助 都在做很多的協助如果有任何的需要 會請委員繼續提出來好 沒問題 加強 但現在來講因為那邊的醫師都是我好朋友也許很多是你的學生因為都在台灣來受訓 所以我們都是瞭解所以可以說是溝通無礙 但是我們"},{"start":15666.067,"end":15687.541,"text":"委員要提高他的整個品質這個部分我們一定一起來努力好而且我其實也很擔心後續財化法很多錢回到地方去但是地方上有沒有好的監督機制好的問政施政品質來照顧人民的醫療需求所以我這個部分會持續再跟各位討論好謝謝部長那部長請回那社交署請留步謝謝"},{"start":15689.312,"end":15708.067,"text":"好我想快速跟社交署討論一下關於個人助理協助在自立生活支持的部分因為我們從特教一路走來發現很多身心障礙的朋友他們很希望透過個人助理協助可以自立生活其實也可以減少身邊家人跟社會的負擔而且其實俊翰律師之前有提到過"},{"start":15709.147,"end":15734.084,"text":"目前我们发现几个问题一个是申请的时数跟核定的时数落差很大可能他是我们现在手上好几个案例例如说一个案例他是说他申请了120几个小时但是经过地方政府的审议之后呢他最后只核定了三分之一那我们当然知道资源有限人力有限的情况下我们回过头来看这些个案的困境这个审议的结果他们收到之后基本上在现行的法规里面他们没有"},{"start":15734.884,"end":15760.202,"text":"申訴的機制他們沒有回復這個結果的機制跟管道導致於他們只能默默的接受雖然非常非常的不足所以我剛剛說我不知道是人力的問題還是資源的問題而且假設假設真的有一天他們可以申請救濟那在救濟期間的時數又是如何認定那你可能覺得我提到這個救濟很莫名其妙我等一下會來說另外一個事情還有就是目前我們申請的辦法是這樣"},{"start":15761.943,"end":15783.135,"text":"假設他的戶籍地在台中啊台南啊高雄但是他的工作地可能在台北或是他剛剛講的我說的那些地方以外的地方他在台北工作那但是因為他的戶籍在其他地方所以他就必須送回戶籍地的所在縣市政府去申請那我們現在不確定這個事情有沒有辦法調整因為如果他的工作地在雙北"},{"start":15784.316,"end":15809.083,"text":"現在很多困境是這樣但是他為什麼一定得送回去沒有別的方法嗎我們覺得我剛剛講這個問題其實都對身心障礙的朋友非常不友善但是我們明明希望透過私立生活的協助真的可以讓他們感覺到自己是有能力的而且自己是可以貢獻自己的專業在這個社會上所以我們來問一下你們目前的私立生活需求評估有沒有相關的法源依據我們來看一下下一張"},{"start":15810.143,"end":15832.801,"text":"我們去找了相關的法源依據在身障權法50跟51條你們都只有說要提供自立生活支持服務可是相關的細則其實我們沒有看見在身障權法個人照顧服務辦法裡面呢第71條也有提到類似的事情可是到底整個委員會的組成啊審議的機制啦申訴的機制救濟的機制其實也都講得不清不楚我們覺得很可惜"},{"start":15834.242,"end":15850.831,"text":"第二個現行自立生活需求評估也欠缺讓障礙者個人陳述意見的機制怎麼說呢我們回到我們在照顧特教孩子們在學校生活中的參與在特教法的相關法規裡面都有保障特教生他們可以參與相關的會議跟討論也就是說"},{"start":15853.892,"end":15877.807,"text":"孩子本人或者是法定代理人或是實際照顧者都可以參加相關的專業評估或是相關的會議那我們回到身心障礙者權利公約也就是CRPD裡面其實也提到自立生活跟個人助理協助尤為重要那如果尤為重要身為這個被服務的案主個人他為什麼不能在相關事件上表達他的意見跟他的困境跟他的需求呢我們也覺得很可惜"},{"start":15878.467,"end":15906.558,"text":"我們很多事情都提到公民參與但偏偏身障者這個個人生活自理的部分卻沒有相關的機制還有目前自立生活支持服務的申請是透過戶籍地那我剛剛說那外地工作者的需求又會是什麼那這麼多問題我可不可以快速知道還是說因為我今天時間有限我們沒有辦法立刻回應需要會後跟我們辦公室積極的開會討論呢還是我說的這些事情都不符合你們現在的認知"},{"start":15908.464,"end":15924.778,"text":"那個報告委員我想我先做一點簡單的說明那我們也很願意再跟大家做討論好那第一個是自立生活的這個法源依據其實我們是生存版50條對沒錯就是我列出來的可是我說剛剛實行的這些細則跟細節包含這些會議啊然後申訴的這些機制啊或者是委員會召開組成的辦法啦相關專家學者是如何訂定啊那為什麼他們看了書面報告就可以決定這個時數這樣"},{"start":15937.249,"end":15957.876,"text":"應該這樣說就是我們其實法律上面是各有一些規定譬如說50條是他需求評估那在生存法第7條其實也有訂到說需求評估其實要的內容而且是要團隊那當然我們是沒有要求說各地方的團隊要怎麼建立這是也希望地方政府是可以因地制宜"},{"start":15959.597,"end":15988.31,"text":"我們其實在這個自立生活因為團體也跟我們反映過其實希望是生長者可以參與所以我記得我們在討論自立生活的這個需求評估必須經過團隊的這個決策機制的時候有要求地方政府其實應該邀請生長者一起來參與這個討論那我想我們可以再瞭解地方政府他落實的一個情況那另外一個部分剛剛提到的如果他的戶籍地跟工作地不同的部分確實是我們現在是他必須要跟戶籍地申請因為"},{"start":15989.15,"end":15995.918,"text":"主要是戶籍地我們希望有機會改善因為戶籍地它是要付費我們會後續討論前幾天有個記者會就是有我們共同跟一群12個被性侵的小孩"},{"start":16004.267,"end":16025.379,"text":"的家長共同召開那發生了什麼事情就是一個才藝班的老師在他的教室裡面裝監視器然後把孩子帶到那些角落進行性侵跟性殺後來在進行報案的過程當中我們發現其實在你們衛福部相關的會議裡面也提到這個案子是一個照妖鏡看出整個系統的問題我現在就問一個一站式協助服務的事情我們昨天去問了相關司法法治委員會"},{"start":16025.939,"end":16046.536,"text":"他們告訴我們確實現在的狀況是有一些縣市政府他們有找一些醫院做所謂一站式服務可是假設我報案的地方是A可是提供一站式服務的醫院在轄區B他就沒有辦法提供服務那我知道你們沒有辦法回答可是我要講這個機制有待精進是不是可以給我們一個快速的承諾我們辦公室會跟你們積極的召開相關會議"},{"start":16049.338,"end":16060.041,"text":"好這個部分應該是我們保護室在處理我會帶回去跟他們好沒關係你不用帶回去因為我會找你討論好不好好當然也是希望你帶回去啦好謝謝好謝謝謝謝謝謝陳委員來接續我們請徐護魁委員質詢謝主席有請部長跟政策謝謝"},{"start":16079.915,"end":16107.323,"text":"委員好 部長鄭次 午安好 部長這個禮拜天就是母親節所以大概這段時間我都常跑去關懷據點關心我們的長輩 家裡的長輩媽媽祝他們母親節快樂 但是也發現了一些這個過去這個關懷據點呈現了一些軟硬體的一些問題啦 我想保定照顧今天的老人就是照顧明天的自己 這句話你認同嗎"},{"start":16108.483,"end":16126.695,"text":"我當然認同認同啦我不是到明天今天已經變老了部長我想過去從我們潘孟安秘書長他當縣長的時候他就一直在推動我們一村裡一據點的一個政策那到我們現在周春米縣長上任之後屏東縣443個村裡裡面我們目前已經佈建了415個據點佈建率高達94%我想這在全國各縣市裡面應該是冠軍的人"},{"start":16137.362,"end":16160.442,"text":"但是這個光靠縣政府的能量是有限的所以我想 柏林我們目前盤點出屏東縣目前有超過四成的據點是設在非公有的空間差不多有最快五成是設在我們的廟宇或是教會那其他就是在一般的民宅或是私人空間當然這樣的一個環境一定是有受到一些的限制包含修繕的問題 設備不足的問題柏林"},{"start":16163.464,"end":16190.761,"text":"那我們令人憂心的是我們也發現其中有340處的據點有高達將近九成的空間對我們這些中北市團不友善包含這個無障礙設施啦公共廁所甚至這些廚房都沒有設在外面的住鎮我想這個都是一個隱憂政府針對這樣一個狀況我們是不是有機會我們有機會過去因為衛福部可以補助我們一個活動中心一個修繕甚至興建這部分有機會再來倒三天嗎"},{"start":16193.556,"end":16200.948,"text":"我想如果有需要我們一定全力以赴去協助就是看每一個地方可能有不同的問題"},{"start":16204.674,"end":16230.444,"text":"以屏東方面不曉得那個你是這邊有沒有非常感謝那個徐委員的關心我跟委員報告那個我在前陣子我屏東我也有常常跑那個周主任那個周縣長問一下這個部分也非常用心我知道那個委員你現在所說的最主要是那個據點那個部分那個整個空間啦還有裡面那個修繕的部分我有一件報告這個部分我們現在目前確實當然你如果可以當然"},{"start":16231.624,"end":16246.687,"text":"用那個社區活動中心這最好啦但是沒有辦法大家都有活動中心嗎?阿...委員這個部分我們是不是我們回來其實我們有在研究說是不是可以用租金補貼啦阿但是這個部分部長這次"},{"start":16248.846,"end":16263.275,"text":"趕快提出方案好不好,不要說都研究而已啦,我們的市長不可以斷電啦,你都要研究,要研究多久好,我這部分是不是比較緊張?好,超過一半的據點是在我們的輸贏的場域,這都是三星團是提供的是,我了解,提供好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好,好"},{"start":16269.352,"end":16279.176,"text":"我再提出另外一個數據,在屏東有超過6成5的據點每個月共存的人數超過30個,甚至很多都60個,100個以我們的補助標準,一個團善,一星期吃一天,一人費用多少錢?35塊現在物價35塊是要怎麼吃飯?"},{"start":16296.79,"end":16305.358,"text":"我們的限制不是人數 最主要是時段的問題議員你也知道 你有一個整體的一個...也有做到一個星期有10個時段的啊是 要不然你一個月補助一萬兩千塊沒分製作都一萬兩千塊而已 那是要怎麼處理難道不能有一個分級的制度嗎"},{"start":16320.111,"end":16329.017,"text":"對 我是建議因為畢竟每個村裡就總共沒工啦有的地方比較人比較少三四十的 也有七八十的 也有八幾個你不能用一萬兩千塊去涵蓋社會的服務據點啦 這真的委員 這個分級的保溫我們是不是也一併啦好不好 一併我們來列入"},{"start":16346.388,"end":16359.64,"text":"我想以我們在看那個總共有的所在的那半五天,如果不是很多三星人士在企業家倒三天,那真的支撐不下去啦,那今天應付我們中央市場要吃飯後就成困難了啦。是啦,我也想問問報告,"},{"start":16363.604,"end":16390.076,"text":"當然這是很重要,我們也希望就是說政府來這邊負責來有一個鼓勵嘛,也引進民間的資源,大家到底來關心我們的鄉親企業嘛是啦,另外一個因為你們有一個點名制度,我不知道你們到底有怎麼樣去點名,點名大家都沒什麼,跟我們這個東西我們是在各據點都有那個刷卡,就用健保卡就可以"},{"start":16390.752,"end":16405.75,"text":"這主要是希望大家比較簡單一點就是他刷卡就表示他今天我相信現在沒有人會要做這個做假這個東西啦 大家都沒搞 開沒搞啦那都自己自掏腰包的很多那個志工媽媽都自己做八天做二天在那裡在服務的啦"},{"start":16407.356,"end":16423.801,"text":"所以我想應該是多支持我們這樣一個據點畢竟這個現在年輕人在打拚 長輩在關懷據點大家共餐做遊戲 然後能夠增加健康這年輕人可以去打拚做工作我想這是大家的共同的努力目標部長 那我要特別再強調"},{"start":16425.582,"end":16441.318,"text":"114年我們長照的基金編列879億但是用在我們這個據點跟長照站的整合計畫只有35億整體比例這個預防性的支持比例不到4%這是不是有機會用逐年性的部分來做增加"},{"start":16442.119,"end":16454.505,"text":"不然你做預防的一個照顧,未來就是很大的問題預防性的照顧是現在的趨勢啊對經費就要增加啊提出一個階段性計畫好不好好,提出給你最後我就說,我們都會變老,未來我們都要去據點所以現在做得好,對我們未來也有好處"},{"start":16469.812,"end":16488.808,"text":"希望我相信我們在這個地方政府很努力的狀況之下 中央應該給予更大的一個支持的力道大家來收緊 我想包含空間 包含經費 包含支付上面給予我們更積極正面的一個回應 我想也感謝各位照顧今天的老人 就是照顧現在我們的家庭"},{"start":16490.549,"end":16514.901,"text":"這樣是不是一個月之內將對這個分級的部分給我們一個素面報告好的好謝謝謝謝習主席好謝謝謝謝習主席好謝謝謝謝習主席好謝謝謝謝習主席好謝謝謝謝習主席好謝謝謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主席好謝謝習主�"},{"start":16526.285,"end":16527.847,"text":"謝謝主席 本席邀請部長"},{"start":16535.845,"end":16550.301,"text":"我們也針對最近你們公布澳洲的冷凍豬肉豬腳驗出有含萊克多巴胺瘦肉精的部分一週內累計有3批 總重量是70.24噸"},{"start":16553.965,"end":16580.915,"text":"但是食藥署表示說他沒有超過0.01ppm的限量標準所以沒有辦法去公佈他的流向但是本學要請教如果沒有公佈那未來我們的孩子本學非常重視我們孩子尤其學校營養午餐學童的食安問題所以本學要請教"},{"start":16582.415,"end":16605.712,"text":"那不公佈等於是保障有含萊克多巴胺我們就公告原產地啊公告原產地 不公告流向啊你告訴我們說因為沒有超過所以不公告流向我們不知道他流到哪裡去啊會不會流到學校 會不會流到營養午餐去你賣心就知道他的肉是外來的"},{"start":16606.152,"end":16607.434,"text":"所以我們還是要希望要保護我們的學童的一個食安安全嘛這一點是非常的重要"},{"start":16623.135,"end":16640.549,"text":"那現在我們正值美國的這個關稅談判當中本來還是要說明喔也就是來源的標示這一點是絕對不能退讓的因為這個基本還是有一點點讓人民了解的一個範圍是不是"},{"start":16645.137,"end":16664.134,"text":"請說明委員好 這邊跟委員做進一步的說明剛才提到的我們對於 之前委員有特別提到可能對於到加工製品裡面 包裝的製品裡面我們對豬肉的原料的原產地其實一直有在標示那對散裝我們也是有這樣子的標示"},{"start":16664.754,"end":16688.21,"text":"所以在民眾的資的權利上面其實一直都可以了解那我們對於這個目前看到的一個結果呢也特別鼓勵國內的廠商在進口的時候之前委員特別有提到說沒有特別在萊特多巴胺餵食的一個豬肉的來源未來也是我們加強來去鼓勵你這樣子我們看到了這個問題"},{"start":16689.651,"end":16717.828,"text":"你從源頭去管控從源頭管控是非常的重要這也是政府的責任一定要加油好 接下來本席要請教部長長照3.0那這個計畫我們要115年要啟動了那將原來的2.0社區多元的服務的基礎上去強化整個醫療以及照顧的一個政策其中還針對於中重度的這個中重症的照顧"},{"start":16718.909,"end":16734.101,"text":"所以我們看到現在因為台灣老年人口大概20%了即將會達到所以在安養機構的數量本期看到這個數量我會嚇一跳2017年的1099家到2020年剩下1048家此外全台機構住宿式的長照機構截至去年僅有120餘家"},{"start":16745.39,"end":16766.625,"text":"所以高年齡的人口一直增加那我們的等於是需求大於供給在這樣的一個情況之下我們幾個面向你要怎麼樣去解決這個問題人家願意要做那願意要做你的人力要怎麼樣這個來源同時也就是說你要怎麼樣讓"},{"start":16769.844,"end":16774.91,"text":"這個業者也可以做得下去政府要怎麼去協助去輔導這個非常重要"},{"start":16777.921,"end":16804.926,"text":"非常謝謝委員對長照這些老人的關心然後是請次長非常感謝楊雄英委員對我們的長照3.0的一個關心那我想委員所關心應該兩個問題第一個是機構的量能另外第二個是有關薪資的部分量能的部分我跟委員報告這個數字可能有一些需要我們現在目前其實事實上是增加我們機構的那個數目已經增加2794床"},{"start":16806.966,"end":16823.638,"text":"那我們現在目前在多增加833床之後我們是增加到3627這是第一個床數第二個機構的數目你回答本席的是床數本席要告訴你的就是說因為未來我們之所以在明年要提升為這個長照3.0也就是社會"},{"start":16828.641,"end":16844.27,"text":"市場是有所需求的所以我們要怎麼樣去防範尤其在人力的部分市長人力的部分本期要跟你討論人力的部分有很多因為醫院也缺人"},{"start":16845.23,"end":16871.564,"text":"還有很多醫院的護理人員他也跑到這個美容界去他這個市場是蠻寬廣的那我們也一直在鼓勵我們的護理人員我們要怎麼樣讓他們願意要留下來學校畢業的願意要在這個領域來工作現在在這個領域工作者他願意繼續做所以我們也跟部長一直在討論要怎麼樣"},{"start":16874.265,"end":16891.998,"text":"至少你法你答應 政府黨答應本席說那你這一屆要把這個護病三班比的這個你要入法完成雖然慢了點時間但是我們還是精進去推動但是在他們的薪資我們跟其他國家來比較還是差很多"},{"start":16893.619,"end":16915.598,"text":"所以這個也就是本席認為說我們必須要從根源你如果只有叫私人機構你把它提高薪資那政府的立場在哪裡所以我們看到面臨到社會的面向是迫切需要的所以我就把這個功課給您也就是在我們的量能以及人力方面還有一個次長"},{"start":16916.338,"end":16932.789,"text":"還有一個最重要的在他們整個的行政流程上面可以讓他們怎麼樣去簡化本身認為這必須要去做一個好好的研議尤其在整個行政流程方面怎麼讓他們簡化就像他們說的我們照顧人都照顧得很沒有時間了"},{"start":16938.272,"end":16959.66,"text":"當然你不能完全沒有行政那你這個行政方面可以去再更精進簡化他們的流程減低這些照顧者他們的一個時間的壓縮本席認為應該是全方面的你認同嗎你非常認同你就把資料給本席接下來本席還要跟你討論的一個議題部長"},{"start":16962.381,"end":16979.56,"text":"也就是市長你也先留一下因為現在很多的孩子都到外地去所以我們的長輩已經我們說坐在家裡看天所以失智這些很多我們很不敢好不容易大家推動的關懷戰"},{"start":16981.562,"end":16999.075,"text":"那這個關懷站得非常好你家有菜你拿菜在那邊剪大家聊聊天非常好11點吃完餐回去看個電視他睡覺這個非常好我真的是超級感動的這個政策我也感謝我們所有的廠商界"},{"start":16999.955,"end":17017.684,"text":"善心人士大家來幫忙可是你也不能只有很多的委員都提出你也不能只有依靠民間的來照顧我們的長輩我們必須政府要有這個責任來照顧啊比如說你的這個每個月給人家一萬二"},{"start":17019.225,"end":17043.458,"text":"的這個伙食費像我們有100個 90幾個對不對 那請教那一餐才多少錢雖然你們一餐基本號稱35塊但是實際上我們的通膨問題已經多少了我們還是要讓長者吃的放心吃的營養啊所以你這個12000多久沒調了 市長"},{"start":17047.449,"end":17065.568,"text":"如果說你升格為我們的CG點的話我們事實上我們是會增加到146萬一年146萬現在就是說會看他就是說他當然要看他的時段我們當然鼓勵就是說能夠多開這個時段的話你就可以拿到你從你的吃開始你的伙食費要怎麼調"},{"start":17068.243,"end":17088.56,"text":"這個是最直接的需要啊他長者一定要吃然後我們還要派人把他載回去我們鼓勵他們出來啊付出的是這樣子的愛心所以我們希望大家都有長輩將心比心最重要的他們出來長輩跟長輩講話他很開心甚至我們以前還推動什麼我們還推動幼兒跟長輩一起他很開心"},{"start":17096.346,"end":17109.573,"text":"阿公要講歌給孩子聽孩子聽得很開心他要學台語這個是全世界最美的風景所以在這樣的情況之下你們一直點頭你們到底要不要調聲我們的通本這麼嚴肅"},{"start":17111.854,"end":17126.207,"text":"那部長 要不要調聲你的版理科從什麼時候開始到現在我們的通盤已經增加了多少你們多久研議告訴我們要增加多少你的儘快是多快 給我一個時間點好嗎"},{"start":17132.83,"end":17147.835,"text":"我想這個確實也非常重要啦對啊很重要你告訴我時間沒關係請你告訴我時間我們就一個月好不好一個月告訴我們時間到底關懷據點你們要用什麼方式怎麼樣提升要告訴我們好不好好謝謝好謝謝楊委員謝謝部長那接下來我們請楊耀委員質詢"},{"start":17166.377,"end":17171.18,"text":"好 謝謝主席主席請一下長照師 蘇市長委員好市長好 市長我只有問你讓部長跟市長休息一下你能不能"},{"start":17185.868,"end":17196.228,"text":"用最簡單的方式最少的時間大概跟我講一下長照2.0跟長照3.0最大的區別到底在哪裡"},{"start":17197.145,"end":17206.773,"text":"好那簡單講其實他的基本的理念跟架構其實都是延續的都是以人為本社區為基礎提供連續性的照顧那在3.0要去強化的就是2.0過往跟醫療的那個銜接上面還是沒有很及時所以我們3.0要強化他能夠及時能夠接住銜接上盡量無縫能夠銜接"},{"start":17223.105,"end":17243.917,"text":"醫療面向就有很多元所以這一塊是我們一個強化重點第二個強化重點就是我們要導入一些積極的賦能就是配合在醫療這一端接過來之後不管他今天是在家還是今天在社區在這些相關不同場域裡面怎麼樣透過一些怎麼樣的鼓勵機制讓我們的長輩能夠被訓練讓他可以自主生活盡量減少依賴照顧這是第二個部分"},{"start":17251.721,"end":17275.947,"text":"那第三個部分當然會有伴隨因為2.0這邊有一些的檢討的一些服務的不足那這個部分會來積極強化把這樣的一個資源補起來老師我為什麼這樣子問呢因為就是我們從長照1.0 2.0到3.0其實我個人是不大喜歡這樣子的分類長照制度就是一個制度"},{"start":17276.747,"end":17292.263,"text":"那你剛剛講的也是在長照制度裡面加入醫療體系事實上醫療支撐事實上這個本來也是廣義長照的一環我實在是不知道為什麼為什麼你們會"},{"start":17293.084,"end":17312.869,"text":"一直很喜歡用1.0、2.0、3.0我怕過幾年到10.0所以我才刻意提出這個問題增加醫療的照護其實本身本來就是長照的一環長照是不可能脫離醫療照護的我先問就是說我們長照需求服務的涵蓋率"},{"start":17321.973,"end":17348.355,"text":"是用需求人數推估的需求人數那我問你喔上一次的推估在113年就去年必須要需求的人需求的人數是94萬那衛福部最新的統計數字出來"},{"start":17350.748,"end":17375.377,"text":"只有將近90萬差距超過5%為什麼委員您提的94萬是在長照2.0的核定本裡面的退估數那我們目前的退估數是因應人工普查的資料出來之後那有一些改變因為2.0的時期當時用的一些相關的參數包括失能率那時候是12.6"},{"start":17376.897,"end":17406.164,"text":"那到了這個等於在2.0執行的過程裡面因為人口普查又重新公告了已經從12.6調高到13.3所以我們就是重新把這些參數重算那對於過往2.0裡面有一些這個相關的一些身障的一些推估他採取的是高推估跟衰弱的部分也採取高推估那我們就是在這一批整體重新做一些處理低推估"},{"start":17406.924,"end":17421.69,"text":"我們把它調整因為因為身心障礙者65歲以上的增加幅度高可是他未滿65歲的這一塊他的年輕型的障礙者他其實人數是沒有那樣子的大幅增加所以我們就是改採立推估"},{"start":17422.13,"end":17450.045,"text":"所以才有這個數字的一個變動我這樣子問呢是因為其實事實上就是要推估本身就是一件很困難的事情啦要精準的推估本來就不過呢因為你推估出來的人數會影響到需求服務涵蓋率對不對所以我希望你們就是我不覺得"},{"start":17452.355,"end":17479.765,"text":"政府必須要把很多數字美化我覺得我現在不是在說你這件事我個人覺得就是應該是多少人數就多少人數我們服務的多少就服務多少總是盡可能的把事情做到最完美這個才是對的總比把數字文字"},{"start":17480.885,"end":17506.608,"text":"做的美化這個高明的多好不好我大概就是希望你們以後在在推估的時候可以再精準一點因為這個會影響影響影響到後續很多很多東西包括預算的的編列好不好跟委員報告3.0這邊的退估就是用分零了因為我們後來新的調查有分零的失能率好"},{"start":17508.926,"end":17530.583,"text":"台灣今年開始邁入超高齡社會高齡人口的總數已經超過20%我們目前面臨的有關長照比較有問題的是台灣接受長照服務的平均年齡是76歲"},{"start":17532.847,"end":17556.708,"text":"也就是說在十年後戰後嬰兒潮的人口會在這十年之內會逐步達到長照需求那現在有幾個問題我來人力上你們可能要盡可能的儲備長照所需要的人力另外一個就是我們的財源"},{"start":17560.856,"end":17583.608,"text":"因為戰鬥嬰兒潮的人數太多了占台灣總人口數的占比太高了根據OECD的國家統計長照的支出大概要占GDP的1.8%而且八成為公共長照支出"},{"start":17586.488,"end":17615.556,"text":"事實上我再講一次長照的總體支出要佔到GDP的1.8%而且其中這1.8%要八成是公共長照支出可是台灣這幾年長照的總支出未達GDP的百分之一公共支出更只佔四成"},{"start":17619.844,"end":17638.735,"text":"假如說比照韓國長照支出佔GDP的1.11.1就好了台灣的長照支出必須要有2600億以上可是今年只編列了900多億也就是說900多億是我們用韓國的1.1%來做比例"},{"start":17648.362,"end":17671.27,"text":"其實我們現在編列的只有必須編列的4成市長我這段話你有聽懂嗎有好那我想要問一下就是說面對人口結構的變化未來的支出一定會一直上升"},{"start":17674.734,"end":17701.161,"text":"在財源上我們現在單靠遺產稅、菸稅、菸捐和房地合一稅可以支應嗎目前是無餘因為我們現在累積的盈餘現在有2039億在我們的長照基金那我剛才就講了嘛就是說因為我們的公共支出佔比太低嘛人民自行吸收的太高嘛"},{"start":17703.28,"end":17718.258,"text":"所以你才會覺得夠用嘛你假如說是按照OECD的標準八成必須要是公共長照裁員那你是不夠的嘛"},{"start":17719.654,"end":17743.015,"text":"這部分也要跟委員說明因為畢竟就是我們不管今天是長照還是小朋友幼兒的照顧其實在國家的立場其實是幫忙家庭一起來照顧大概沒有辦法替代家人照顧所以這個跟這個OECD國家有一些是走福利體系的國家的概念其實是不一樣"},{"start":17744.296,"end":17773.439,"text":"就是因為賦稅的問題師長這麼說呢我是覺得台灣這幾年的經濟成長跟台灣邁向高齡化台灣強調福利國政策然後我們把長照做這樣子的定位我覺得我好像不能接受"},{"start":17774.434,"end":17792.629,"text":"因為福利國家的話基本上的稅負每一個民眾的繳稅的稅負要高那現階段我們台灣的整個的一個稅負大概只有佔14%跟福利國家高達三四成以上是截然不同對不是我現在我現在講的是說是說譬如我這樣子講啦市長你把長照定義為個人的"},{"start":17805.019,"end":17830.109,"text":"應該是說政府沒有辦法替代家人照顧沒有辦法替代對 是協助家人一起來做照顧就跟小朋友的照顧是一樣的概念所以我們已經沒有 我們不排付了相關的都補給式的都可以提供只是提供的方式是跟著家人一起來我因為時間的關係啦所以我大概也不想佔用其他的同事太多時間"},{"start":17833.711,"end":17840.557,"text":"就剛剛包括我的題目裡面就大家都覺得你們現在編了900多億從屏東到台中"},{"start":17847.659,"end":17871.804,"text":"到澎湖我相信是全台灣都覺得關懷據點給的經費太少那我也一直強調我向來主張預防勝於治療關懷據點做得好後續的長照支出就會少所以關懷據點這個從伙食到人力這個你們真的必須要很快的把"},{"start":17873.544,"end":17902.182,"text":"把補助金額提高我最後一個問題讓你回去想就是說假如說我們真的真的國家的財政沒有辦法支出很多的長照讓高齡化的台灣可以有一個安定的長照制度來支應老人生活為什麼"},{"start":17903.727,"end":17910.269,"text":"為什麼你們從來不考慮從來不考慮走保險制保險制 長照保險或者是保險跟公務預算雙軌這個我讓你待會去想不過我想我會找一天好好的跟你們討論這個問題謝謝市長 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員"},{"start":17933.374,"end":17939.296,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝市長來 接著我們請劉淑冰委員質詢謝謝主席 那有請邱部長委員好"},{"start":17958.528,"end":17968.04,"text":"部長好根據衛福部的資料顯示在113年的時候我國長照的服務量的人數達到55.8萬但是長照的服務員僅有10萬421人有嚴重的人力短缺這個情形"},{"start":17975.049,"end":17994.001,"text":"衛福部的報告當中對於這個策進規劃裡面有提到說長照人力不足多元充實照顧人力有這個必要性那你們提出的方案當中是說跨國合作擴大招募外籍人力的這個政策呢是在衛福部配合教育部的新南向產學合作國際專班那規劃的是專班的畢業生呢畢業後畢業後續留"},{"start":18000.505,"end":18023.203,"text":"住宿式的機構來做服務那這是一項新的補充照顧人力的這個途徑跟政策就是一個方向我覺得值得再去討論再就問部長那衛福部他預計說這樣的新南向產學合作專班每年要獲得多少的長照的人力來進入到住宿式的機構服務大概多少人力有估量嗎好"},{"start":18026.658,"end":18050.04,"text":"那請理事幫忙好請理事長非常感謝劉委員對於這個問題的關心那這個誠如剛剛委員剛剛所說的我們現在目前確實也因應現在目前這一個整個人力不足所以我們現在目前除了本勞之外我們現在目前整個所謂的那個中階勞動力我們現在會從新南向國家到底多少人我重點是你們知道估計多少人嗎我們現在目前設定是一年120"},{"start":18051.241,"end":18072.007,"text":"我們現在目前是,我們會逐年,我們現在目前是一年一百二的一年一百二,對沒錯因為一班是四十位嘛所以三班而已,可是這個新南向專班是從一百零六年就開始的,因為有畢業生四年是一百一十年畢業後的時候是一百一十年"},{"start":18074.028,"end":18095.154,"text":"那是新的 那你們是應該有弄錯 應該是新型的產業專班才會這種情況那你們是 好 如果是這樣的情況齁 如果是這樣的情況那我們先看看齁那所以這代表說這些人 你剛才說到有120個是在表示說他是在學期間就已經在實習嘛 如果你是真的是新型的部分對不對 等於說他剛剛進入一年級他就再去實習了 是嗎"},{"start":18096.937,"end":18099.1,"text":"我們設定是二專因為這個產業端用人恐急所以我們設計是二專那在二專是長照相關科學的二專所以他在學讀書是一年半"},{"start":18114.14,"end":18125.892,"text":"最後一學期才到媒合的這個機構去做實習那實習就要給付基本工資然後畢業之後跟這個提供實習機構跟相關50%費用的這個機構產業要綁約三年在這個機構裡面服務三年"},{"start":18132.939,"end":18151.107,"text":"但是你們這是新型的因為教育部在這部分已經出現了過去你們是因為是新型的部分但是在更早的情況之下是106年就有所謂國際新南向產學合作專班這部分是106年就在進行你們知道嗎尤其是在報告當中也是提到這邊但是你們現在只針對新的部分去進行這是不為不顧我們是從去年開始新的計畫"},{"start":18155.769,"end":18182.294,"text":"對 那個也是教育部 因為你們都是跟教育部做合作但是事實上因為我們看到的是在監察院在人權委員會的報告當中都有在出現到去年就有人 新南向專班的這個部分就有越南生在工作的場域當中就發生的死亡事件包委員 您現在所說的那應該是教育部那個方案我現在要強調我們現在目前是完完全全只是為我們的長照機構而這個方案是從去年才開始推出"},{"start":18182.754,"end":18199.727,"text":"好所以之前的部分可是那個部分那個好我知道了以前說過去那部分是全部的這個所謂的機構是但是最長照就是只有在今年才拉進來的是這樣子的話那如果這麼少的話你們剛才說現在才缺人地有大概缺人地到底缺多少"},{"start":18200.487,"end":18214.076,"text":"因為不是缺了很多嗎那現在就估計是120人在慢慢在進行就對了跟我們報告外籍人力有兩塊這一塊去年新加的是定位是中階品質這個能力比較好那另外一塊還有藍領的"},{"start":18216.218,"end":18236.137,"text":"藍領的就是依據就業服務法46條引進來的可以到機構裡面來工作那這塊我們也透過勞動部那邊的修法把本來的本國照服員跟引進藍領移工1比1的人力我們已經修法通過了讓他的1比1的算法是本國的照服員加護理人力加起來1比1"},{"start":18236.798,"end":18256.887,"text":"他們的語言能力夠嗎?如果你剛才說像你的二專他們就來一年然後第一年半的時候就進入到語言上去他們語言夠嗎?包括什麼審核標準等等的因為這個新南向的這一塊教育部那邊要求規定他沒有通過語言測驗是要退學的所以是一定會把關讓他語言能夠通過"},{"start":18258.308,"end":18266.91,"text":"好那上次在預算這部分有付了大家多少在這部分的經費在新型產業專班因為我們這塊是跟產業界合作就是住宿機構的這塊他要出50%的經費他提出的需求他是要兩名還是三名還是五名他出50%我們這邊出50%"},{"start":18279.394,"end":18290.088,"text":"那我現在有一個問題現在的是你們對這些外籍的就是所謂實習生的部分你們薪水就給基本工資那我們去問一下我們一般的勞工做長照的他們薪水是多少"},{"start":18291.832,"end":18315.947,"text":"藍嶺移工的這塊我說不要說移工我說一般的我們的正常的長照在機構是住宿室的機構部分薪水是多少在住宿室機構他基本上他的薪資當然因為是本國對他要留住他他的相關的薪資一定會依據他的能力跟條件大概是平均有多少你們應該有這個數據吧因為是長照人力的缺乏也是可能是低薪的緣故啊對"},{"start":18316.587,"end":18325.772,"text":"因為我們住宿型機構大概基本上整個起薪大概都有超過三萬塊可是這個不包括他還會輪班有一些津貼的部分那我們也為了讓本國的資深的這個照服員能夠久任在這個機構所以我們其實從去年就有一支計劃開始就是我們"},{"start":18341.201,"end":18366.371,"text":"推動機構你只要願意推薦你機構裡面大概本國的照服員最多兩成的人力來接受培訓培訓完了之後四年期間我們都會給這名受完訓通過測驗的本國的照服員每個月給他五千塊的這個留任解約但是這一部分你會看到他實際上缺了很多那麼預計長照這服務員你們希望說預期到未來是準備到什麼樣一個需求才是夠的供應才是夠的"},{"start":18368.584,"end":18387.558,"text":"因為整個各行各業他基本上是哪邊的這個職場越友善薪資待遇越高必然流動那這個部分還是整個因為沒有辦法提出來因為他是缺工嘛所以你們還引進外籍的尤其是新南向是屬於GDP比我們低的嘛"},{"start":18388.238,"end":18408.306,"text":"這部分已經呈現很重要的就是長照人員他們薪水基本上是低的本國低那外勞更是用基本工資他們確實是非常勞工的工作這部分其實應該說要去做很大的改進目前你們有沒有預期說未來這個部分外籍的產權站班預計大家希望能夠補到多少人力目標是多少"},{"start":18409.507,"end":18426.641,"text":"這個部分真的也會受到那個黨的到外面去招生能不能順利進來的還是有一些外交的問題所以沒有目標所以我們設的目標不是整個衛福部可以掌控那我們也積極有跟這個外交部這些相關單位來協助能夠讓這些願意報名進來的學生能夠順利入境"},{"start":18433.426,"end":18455.035,"text":"這部分其實有很大的問題我上次在總預算總質詢的時候問到教育部教育部已經發現說如果這邊有些學校的部分遇到問題的時候他就會做處理甚至今年七月份可能不合法就要關閉那我現在重點是說這部分包括預算還有未來的實施這部分希望是不是能夠在大概一個月大概有初步的這個報告跟我們來做本部本期來做報告好沒問題謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝李二位謝謝部長"},{"start":18462.668,"end":18489.104,"text":"蔡宇 蔡宇 蔡宇委員不在王宏威 王宏威 王宏威委員不在何欣淳 何欣淳 何欣淳委員不在林楚瑩 林楚瑩 林楚瑩委員不在顏寬恒 顏寬恒 顏寬恒委員不在黃珊珊 黃珊珊 黃珊珊委員不在鄭振淳 鄭振淳 鄭振淳委員不在"},{"start":18490.472,"end":18493.393,"text":"那接續請劉建國召委資訊好 謝謝主席 有請部長還有署長知道什麼嗎?對 FDA 不好意思召委好部長好"},{"start":18519.714,"end":18545.858,"text":"這個昨天中華民國養豬協會潘連週理事長在媒體上就這樣表示的說看完進口來豬致敬於四年 想要大宗證明對進口豬肉沒有興趣只有加工廠商會給予成本採購所以不用太擔心這個進口內臟豬腳會影響到國內豬肉只要政府嚴格把關並追查豬肉動向但如果是肉品內臟還是加工品都必須要做到產地標示避免有魚目混豬的情況也保障國內豬籠的權益部長對潘理事長的說法有什麼看法"},{"start":18546.418,"end":18560.298,"text":"現在就是這樣在做但是潘理事長還有這段話的一個重點就是政府要嚴格把關並追查豬肉動向我們到底有沒有嚴格把關"},{"start":18561.67,"end":18586.523,"text":"因為他在表示嘛一週內連續有三批萊豬進口不可能是包裝錯誤或是巧合嘛畢竟所有的貨物進口都要經過檢驗封櫃然後報關那這一次一週就有兩次澳洲萊豬進來那代表澳洲端沒有確實檢驗這才是問題的所在嘛所以目前台灣在邊境的把關萊豬抽驗已經過了這四年是不是開始有一些"},{"start":18587.947,"end":18591.98,"text":"怎麼說舒服懈怠不然怎麼會有這種事情發生"},{"start":18592.709,"end":18621.576,"text":"應該不會 是不是 我請署長好 請署長報告委員 有關於澳洲這三批後來我們去追查其實他的後方的製造廠是同一家製造廠 對貿易商的部分是有兩家貿易商進口所以原則上是同一個在同一家製造商的那至於我們在邊境的查查的部分一直以來我們做希望能夠做到更精準智慧型的"},{"start":18622.856,"end":18640.526,"text":"所以因此在過去一路以來我們看到他的風險並都沒有查到所以他的確是從以前逐批查到後來是降到2到10%的一個查查的比例那2到10%查查比例那我們目前看到雖然這次的檢出值是0.01到0.003ppm"},{"start":18643.707,"end":18660.528,"text":"是小於我們的0.01的標準值但是剛才在先前委員會裡面委員們有一些些特別提醒我們要我們增加了我們剛才也有承諾說我們會讓國人更為安心把XX的比例往上提升這邊也跟委員特別做建議我簡單讓署長講完整"},{"start":18662.27,"end":18677.852,"text":"那如果是這個讓就是提高檢驗的這樣的一個量能嘛基本上應該要來嚇阻這些事情是應該是沒有多大的問題啦齁但是我現在用一個例子給你做參考齁那個時候你還沒有來當署長這家齁印度的BOSS的香料與調味料"},{"start":18679.574,"end":18698.173,"text":"這個公司在去年6月18日查出紅膠色素產品有蘇丹隆4號12月17號就是去年又被查到這個紅膠色素檢測出蘇丹隆124三個號然後今年2月11號又有辣椒油素質被檢出蘇丹隆2號跟4號這是幾點"},{"start":18700.735,"end":18724.527,"text":"那去年2月27喔我們消息組的新聞稿寫得很清楚無論是邊境或後市場只要檢出蘇丹紅立即停止輸入查驗那簡單講就是說這家MOS公司在去年6月28被查驗後應該就立即停止輸入查驗為什麼它在12月還是在今年的2月11號都還可以持續進口"},{"start":18726.335,"end":18734.47,"text":"這家BOSS公司是一直在挑戰台灣的邊境茶葉如果說真的他來一次疏忽又被禁來了誰要負責"},{"start":18736.285,"end":18758.812,"text":"這邊跟委員進一步報告這就是因為我們的邊境查驗的系統是智慧型的那它是不得檢出但是檢出了所以我們查驗比例不斷的挑高之後呢是百分之百它其實還沒到港口還沒有進入邊境我們的我們就知道這一家有進馬上就進去去做查查所以才有這個機會能夠這麼精準的把它再查到"},{"start":18759.432,"end":18788.832,"text":"那因為進口商在做這件事情的時候他其實是我們在小署的部分是沒有辦法特別但是我們會予以輔導那因為輔導部分也很困難不在於本署的一個業務的能夠支持但是我們在邊境那決戰在境外的這樣子的心一定是不會改變的以上所以基本上你的意思就是說我們還是有一些防治防備防防制的機制存在但是這好像是廠家就是要跟你賭"},{"start":18789.912,"end":18814.928,"text":"對不對?他就是要跟你賭嘛對,我們看到的情形是這樣的我們食藥署有這麼大的量能可以跟他對賭嗎?我們跟委員報告我們的Border Protection Intelligence就是邊境的智慧茶茶的系統裡面對於這樣子的茶茶已經違規是不得檢出的它自然跳出來的就會變成百分之百只要這個廠家出來馬上就會是每一批"},{"start":18815.788,"end":18839.346,"text":"因為報關的相關資料裡面我們就可以抓得到所以在這邊特別跟委員報告說我們已經在做所謂的精準抽驗上面已經有量能這樣的提升對國人的安全的努力好 現在這樣的場景為什麼不把它列作是一個黑名單對 它就是黑名單OK就是我們知道它是黑名單但是我們就會去你只有它是黑名單它還可以持續的這樣持續的報關來挑戰來跟你賭"},{"start":18842.388,"end":18866.706,"text":"這在貿易的部分他們自由貿易的廠商的部分我覺得應該要有他們我覺得這應該要有個因應之道吧不能這個樣子嘛對不對你當然有相關的機制完備但是他還敢跟你賭那到底是我們我們有什麼調整的空間他連賭都不能賭就是他沒有提供安全足夠的這樣的品質保證的情況之下他都不需要賭了就是主角了啦"},{"start":18867.466,"end":18890.842,"text":"也不用浪費這麼多的人力甚至於還有要用更進步的科技來做專業主角我覺得這樣應該是可以討論的吧謝謝委員我想這個部分我們一定帶回去看怎麼進一步可能不是單單在衛福部事要署這邊我們能夠在跨部會裡面做一些溝通協調看怎麼能夠去努力一個月好不好可以吧問一下這個邊境一個月應該可以吧"},{"start":18894.983,"end":18917.269,"text":"因為我們經生的問題我們經不起任何一次的疏忽嘛然後這廠家就是有就是慣性嘛對報告委員這邊其實剛才提到這家廠商真的是在今年1月24號之後我們有停止其輸入的查驗的是已經有這樣子的阻絕的動作今年的1月嘛有停止輸入的查驗嘛對不對是但是你在發生的時候是今年的2月11號啊對所以"},{"start":18918.749,"end":18938.432,"text":"在這種情形之下可能在時序上面呢還有讓他們有進來那我們也很因為我們有這個系統我們就有把它攔下來這時間沒有是正確的嘛對不對是的這時間沒有問題啊所以在1月已經有做了更完整的這樣的一個組決怎麼2月11號又發生了辣椒油素質蘇丹農2號跟4號"},{"start":18939.953,"end":18961.329,"text":"對我們就回去我們直接來去跟跨部會裡面我們有機會能夠去做進一步的溝通再跟委員處報告說確實還是有問題的存在啦還是有盲點啦一個月裡面提出我們相關的一些因應作為好我們來進一步的去研擬這是下部委例嘛因為實際上的問題我們就是不容許不容許人民百姓就是不容許我們卸貸啊"},{"start":18962.31,"end":18987.492,"text":"我們就說更積極嘛好不好謝謝委員好那第二件事情也是稍微排的這非常重要部長你看一下署長你們請回頭台灣脈絡超高齡社會大家都很清楚65歲已經超過20%長照需求者人數推估也將高達90萬人以上以因此2026的這個造福專員需求人力將達到造福需求人力將達到這一個12萬但是你目前看"},{"start":18988.252,"end":18997.34,"text":"這是往下墜的一個台灣居府人員的成長率從2020年7.79%2021年26%小數領就不再墜數了2022年7.9%2023年1.7%2024年來到1.3%居務員成長率這幾年低迷外我們台灣目前有5萬多的居府嘛然後平均年齡都已經超過50歲未滿25歲才1800僅佔居府的3.6%部長"},{"start":19016.776,"end":19046.196,"text":"還是次長你們怎麼看到現在這個狀況這不僅是會有偏鄉老老照顧現在連居府也都是一樣老老居府的窘境怎麼處理怎麼因應次長非常感謝建國委員對於這個問題的關心我跟委員報告兩個重點第一個其實整個居府現在委員剛剛所說的是2020到2024他那個曲線確實是低但是請委員要注意106年我要注意什麼"},{"start":19046.736,"end":19062.104,"text":"不不不 請委員你就慎重講清楚我會非常注意請委員那個那個圖表再推回去來沒有啦 了解就是說我們從剛開辦的時候 他的曲線是這樣上去的是啊所以我們從剛開始的時候是2.5萬現在是10萬嘛所以現在是4倍所以他的曲線是這樣現在有人說說說說 沒錯 是5年"},{"start":19072.489,"end":19097.297,"text":"現在也許現在到目前為止現在是目前有點就比較平但是這個部分我們也就是這個市場就是前幾年長照2.0在推的時候前8年也成長非常非常非常迅速最近這幾年是有點比較平滑但是第二點我們現在目前我也同意Williams所說的整個居福源它的平均年齡確實也偏高所以我們現在目前"},{"start":19098.237,"end":19115.882,"text":"也希望能夠在這個部分能夠多能夠來來來多推動跟這一個學校學校端這邊的一個合作來來來加強這邊的這一根年輕化你先點出問題的所在嘛對不對先點出問題的所在嘛對不對先點出問題的所在嘛對不對先點出問題的所在嘛對不對先點出問題的所在嘛對不對先點出問題的所在嘛對不對先點出問題的所在嘛對不對先點出問題的所在嘛對不對先點出問題的所在嘛對不對"},{"start":19122.864,"end":19145.27,"text":"你不要用低的才弄出來你要注意一點好不好第二點你就特別提到嘛這個年齡的問題嘛然後再來最主要還是薪資的問題長照大家都非常清楚一年齡的時候平均其實我們都說的比較和緩一些啦說平均還有50億沒有啦 不這麼多啦"},{"start":19147.03,"end":19162.1,"text":"其實拜託市長回去可能要再精算一下1.0之前平均1.0才真正的有付出的是多少錢這是第一第二長照2.0從小英上來之後隔年的長照基金長照福華等等陸續推動我們從50來億應該是40 50億變成320億一直到現在800多要進入900多了對不對"},{"start":19171.005,"end":19194.653,"text":"那將近八年 將近八年的長照相關的幾支戶通通沒有調整這比較有道理 八個黨都沒有人調整你調整什麼 你說我聽因為次長你自己提到薪資的問題嘛 對不對你看喔 小英3年以來 台灣具體工資每年調漲這個表格各位可以看一下嘛一英文的時候 時薪是1220調到126"},{"start":19196.413,"end":19201.978,"text":"然後106的時候月薪從2008調到2019一直到114年的一列以後已經來到28590甚至於這個時薪已經調到190了那長照怎麼會相關的幾支戶到現在8年連一個微調通通沒有這太多了 注意"},{"start":19220.919,"end":19227.61,"text":"你就要特別注意這個事情了啊你可以注意到曲線你怎麼不曉得你那個長照幾十分八年那個曲線是平的"},{"start":19228.726,"end":19251.636,"text":"是平的 一定不會動你叫我去管的 因為我住在街外 港外嘛你要叫我去管的 那個白白白你知不知道 會長是醫師嘛 很清楚到醫院如果看到一個數據是白白白代表什麼 你知道嗎早我已經說了嘛 所以要注意嘛白白白你注意嘛 已經不會有了"},{"start":19253.78,"end":19259.165,"text":"對不對現在是要怎樣CPR要怎樣處理注意怎麼會把你完全都那麼動然後我們現在又針對喔衛部又針對長照3.0將讓入什麼有三項嘛第一經醫師診斷危老狀況且是能影響到日常生活第二經醫師診斷為癌末"},{"start":19277.185,"end":19296.499,"text":"然後預期壽命低於六個月的私人病患那我們現在在第三項是符合前述條件且符合勞動力中階啦這個技術人力的取得永久居留權的外籍專業人士我們要擴大這個對象嘛對不對我們在擴大對象但我們一直不提升相關的集資戶你怎麼有人你怎麼補起來"},{"start":19301.542,"end":19311.97,"text":"你從很多的面向去處理 要讓更多的這個造福人力長照機構人力 我知道都有在做但是你的誘因在什麼地方 你的鼓勵在什麼地方就處理到說是了 你叫我一直注意啊 我也一直注意看你要回答什麼報告委員 我以後一定會自己會好好注意啦"},{"start":19325.234,"end":19329.578,"text":"非常佩服委員長期以來對這個問題的關心我相信真的是確實誠如委員剛才所說的我想這個需求要再提高長照其實最重要的就是人力"},{"start":19341.148,"end":19352.851,"text":"因為我們也知道人力成本占百分之六十所以這個部分我們現在目前會根據我們的組合長照照顧組合的機制來做一個相關的成本效益分析但是我們現在是這樣啦簡單來講就是說業者應該自己的經驗應該最了解裡面的成本的結構所以你只要業者那邊提出來大家都可以來探討嘛注意"},{"start":19370.834,"end":19394.148,"text":"人家早早就這樣提出來了是你們沒有注意到啦報告委員我們也跟這個居民這邊有跟他們拜託大家說請他們提出但是他們沒有提出其實是不會的啦那我就會特別注意居民到底在做什麼是不是沒關係他們沒有提出啦我會注意他們為什麼沒有提出之後來跟你回報"},{"start":19395.134,"end":19423.913,"text":"但是他們如果有提出那就要換你注意了對 沒錯我要提到一點喔我們 我剛才特別用那個就你基本工資來看待整個這個成長嘛那你怎麼可能會成照相關的給支付標準照理講你也應該參考嘛 評估嘛就像可以依照基本工資啦還是勞健保費率啦物價指數來做微調嘛即便居如沒有提出來至少還是可以來做嘛因為你剛剛特別提到的兩個點的中間的一個點薪資問題嘛"},{"start":19425.554,"end":19450.545,"text":"所以不是只有居府 長照機構的人員基本上都是如此嘛所以是整體來做這個面向來做調查 來做相關的這些可以依據的參考我們應該 時間到了啦 要進到3.0之前就應該來做調整了啦 好不好 普通人會這樣嘛 好不好你們來注意喔 謝謝部長一起注意 一個月內"},{"start":19451.525,"end":19463.338,"text":"我們把這個注意事情處理完成,好不好好,謝謝,謝謝大家的注意謝謝,謝謝劉昭偉,全部都在注意啦謝謝部長我們請陳寅委員資訊"},{"start":19480.89,"end":19505.782,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩先請部長跟呂次長部長好 次長好我上個月到成功的時候我在路邊吃海產結果有一個阿公突然走到我前面然後他袖子捲起來我以為他要打我 嚇一跳結果"},{"start":19506.542,"end":19535.621,"text":"他是露出他手腕上面的手錶然後很得意的把他老婆也叫來說他們就是上次我在就是之前我在2022年有幫這個智慧手環計畫有在花園封兵事辦我們有爭取嘛那2023年我又在幫台東的這個成功和長兵的長者在爭取這個智慧手環的部分那現在目前也都在實施當中"},{"start":19537.002,"end":19562.697,"text":"剛好這對老夫妻他們是其實女兒一個嫁到台北一個嫁到澳洲剛好放假可能回來掃墓也跟我講說因為有這個智慧手環他們真的很放心他們住在偏鄉生活的這些長輩們真的幫助非常的大"},{"start":19563.497,"end":19590.225,"text":"所以這樣的一個照顧長者的計畫在偏鄉是相當重要的那麼在去年12月5號衛環委員會也已經要求衛福部要規劃臺東花蓮全縣來辦理智慧手環的計畫的時候部長有特別指示說要在一個月內完成評估那我後來也在預算審查的時候提案要求今年要公告辦理那部長你知道現在的進度嗎"},{"start":19593.442,"end":19619.936,"text":"首先我覺得這樣剛剛那個照片非常的感人真的那也覺得這樣的一個成效很敬佩委員這樣來推動真的是照顧了偏鄉老人那怎麼樣來把它擴大是我們一直在思考的那這是不是醫護會副執行長我再鄭重提醒一下部長你上次就是我們是在12月5號的未還委員會那今天已經幾月幾號了"},{"start":19624.826,"end":19649.399,"text":"今年已經5月8號那整整已經過了半年又三天了那要不要講一下你們的進度我們依附會來報告一下首先的確這個委員非常關心這個成功和長兵這個我們的叫做事辦的這個計畫難怪這個委員名義這麼高這個非常這個受到民眾的這個愛戴"},{"start":19650.799,"end":19672.631,"text":"我覺得這些話都不重要我比較關心他們什麼時候有手環可以帶對那這個計畫就是剛剛我提有特別講到這是一個試辦的計畫我們從去年1月開始做做到現在才做一年三個月那這個為什麼叫試辦呢因為這個計畫目前我們是跟長照師爭取3500萬的經費來做到目前為止才收案大概將近1200個人"},{"start":19674.272,"end":19692.471,"text":"那在實施上的確還是有一些民眾剛剛這兩位民眾是非常滿意可是也有一些民眾他是就是他覺得這個科技的這個部分他可能不太會使用他可能去種田的時候不方便帶著啦或者說帶很久都忘了充電啊什麼有這些這樣的問題這些是很小的問題啊"},{"start":19694.092,"end":19713.753,"text":"我也有跟台東部立醫院的院長我們都有下鄉後來有下鄉去宣導嘛其實這個都小問題啊是是是但是宣導不知道怎麼用宣導一下而已台東王院長也有告訴我們說這個事辦計畫他兩年完成就是到今年底完成的時候會有一個完整的評估報告"},{"start":19714.474,"end":19739.701,"text":"那所以我們想說既然是你現在是在打部長的臉嗎因為部長有跟我講說就是你們一個月內完成評估你現在上來講兩年這樣誰說了算啊因為我們確實有進去開始評估就是說這個台東縣這個超過65歲的老人就有4萬多人那現在將近1100萬人就花了3500萬"},{"start":19741.101,"end":19765.425,"text":"哇 不好意思你講到這個 講到重點了 錢我們台東人的命比較不值錢是嗎當然不是 當然不是 只是說政府經費一定要編預算預先編才會有經費出來嘛那你臨時要生出這麼多錢有時候不太容易這樣子啊我看你很不會說話部長還是次長你要不要救他一下 我完全聽不下去"},{"start":19767.779,"end":19780.425,"text":"就是所以你結論什麼是我們不要辦呢還是怎麼樣不是我們繼續把這個吃飯計畫把它完整評估完整然後再來那如果兩年後還有人不會用我們這個計畫就來取消是嗎"},{"start":19783.15,"end":19808.887,"text":"你在評估的過程當中你發現問題你們有沒有立刻去解決你們有沒有嘗試著去解決發現問題我們再來修正啊 譬如說今天我去我下鄉去看的時候我都有發現說因為你們如果假如是老人家不會使用他是因為講一下你沒有去講啊那畫中那麼多的部落你不會請說有族語的人去講一下"},{"start":19809.787,"end":19834.771,"text":"去示範一下我那天去了那幾個部落那文件站講一下大家就都會了啊那表示在試用帶這麼久的過程當中你們都沒有好好去講去教嘛啊老人家多花一點時間講慢一點給他重複個兩三次也沒有關係啊但是這過程你們有沒有做呢我覺得這個要檢討的好像是你們自己耶不是檢討那些老人會不會用耶"},{"start":19835.391,"end":19859.278,"text":"不是我的意思是說我們現在光做這1200人台中醫院就已經請了9位專門的人力額外多請9個人來負責輔導幫忙這些民眾來使用就是讓這個民眾在使用上可以更順利所以我們有逐步在改善那因為一開始是不是拜託我們再給我們一點時間我們再努力一下這樣子那個市長有沒有要補充什麼你督導負責督導這個業務"},{"start":19862.384,"end":19874.491,"text":"還是應該部長來直接做裁示好我想那個就趕快去檢討那個在推動當中不能說到最後才檢討部長我先跟你講實際的狀況啦在從去年12月"},{"start":19880.114,"end":19893.605,"text":"5號我質詢完而且您才是之後呢截至一直到昨天這整整幾個月當中我不知道你們衛福部總共聚集在一起針對本期這個要求討論了多少次"},{"start":19895.246,"end":19910.909,"text":"有嗎 這個簡單問題醫護會也把這個當成很重要你們很抗拒 我得到的訊息是你們非常抗拒啊就像當初在一開始最初在示範的時候也是大家踢皮球嘛"},{"start":19912.311,"end":19933.726,"text":"啊踢來踢去後來是那個後來是薛部長就指示嘛指示就清楚了所以我不知道這過程現在是不是還有說誰人力不足然後誰錢不夠然後想要又踢給誰有沒有別人來做啊不然你不是一個月你有拍板定案說誰負責就好了做不下去就可能能力有問題"},{"start":19935.101,"end":19958.899,"text":"這個是麻煩衣服會在負責衣服會的示範計畫現在是部立台東醫院在推那也增加了有九位人力在那邊嘛那我想我們即刻檢討部長我覺得你可能不是很清楚因為主要這個計畫當然戴手錶是簡單的事但是"},{"start":19961.861,"end":19988.015,"text":"有狀況的時候訊息通報了那中間的這個接收的這個單位他必須要立刻去通知來急救的單位那這個中間這個單位他必須要24小時所以他們聘了9個人24小時的在輪那當然衣服會不會擔心啊我現在全線花蓮台東辦下去之後我這9個人我要擴大到多少人第一個人力他們會擔心嘛"},{"start":19989.276,"end":20011.644,"text":"再來這個錢是不是要增加嘛那這個部分呢其實我覺得都有可以替大家省錢省人力的方法你們有沒有好好去想一想我們是不是可以配合保全是不是可以配合村里長是不是可以配合造福員有的可以在晚上分擔一點有的白天分擔一點"},{"start":20013.291,"end":20027.23,"text":"阿東也沒有講到重點沒有去動腦筋去想說只有說我們內部人不夠錢不夠就是不夠我才要在這裡提出這樣的計畫難道我們在花東的這些老人家人民就比較不值錢嗎"},{"start":20028.251,"end":20049.208,"text":"要全線這樣辦理起來如果我是獨居的或者是就是說單獨的那種老夫老妻沒有子女照顧的優先這種來處理的話全部全線加起來才多少錢欸可能五億不到欸你花三億救台東救花蓮這些老人家很貴嗎"},{"start":20051.67,"end":20072.278,"text":"我們怕人家那個月台掉下去都可以花那麼多錢去做一個那個那個什麼柵欄什麼連垂下來了啊我們這個可以救更多人這個錢為什麼不花那個比例換算起來就比月台那個還便宜是的你們這樣拖時間真的沒道理耶一轉眼半年又過去了不好意思啊"},{"start":20076.202,"end":20104.002,"text":"我想每一條生命不管它是在都市偏鄉都是我們應該要非常愛惜重視的啦所以不會特別而且我們一定我們在醫界其實也是在偏鄉點子都保障的啦而且有額外的那個所以都是那個一定是關心的那所以這個部分我們馬上來檢討那個哪個地方推動有障礙一個好的計畫也是要去克服很多的困難"},{"start":20104.682,"end":20119.387,"text":"那克服的就是一種經驗就是一種累積智慧那也許是一個很就形成一個好的模式我們應該往正面來來處理部長那個我再提示一件事就是說這個經費在因為畢竟"},{"start":20124.329,"end":20152.848,"text":"我們參考一下啦2023年薛部長當時的財事後來這個是以長照基金來辦理那當初那個封兵的他是用那個花東基金來辦理那因為這個是照顧長者其實也跟長照有關係所以用長照基金也是非常的合理所以這個部分你們也可以朝這個方向去延續去努力我們馬上來給你跟委員報告我請示召委啊因為"},{"start":20153.989,"end":20183.106,"text":"那實在太不像話 用掉我太多時間我本來還有一題有沒有要讓我問這樣子蛤食藥署的我要說萊克多巴胺就等一等 你要讓我問嗎幾分鐘我也是說不完好啦我講一個重要的概念那昭緯先請坐 我怕你太辛苦了"},{"start":20186.155,"end":20200.953,"text":"好 我們就講快一點那因為現在講這個也感謝昭緯安排這個澳洲豬肉檢測萊克多巴胺這樣的題目那我想就是說這個議題它最終的核心價值到底是什麼"},{"start":20202.455,"end":20222.283,"text":"那因為我們其實大家都可以不同有不同的想法但是本席是認為說這是要凸顯一個我們大家可以接受的健康風險的一個概念因為我們訂了一個0.01ppm的檢測標準那我相信這是衛福部跟食藥署很慎重考慮之後的可接受風險"},{"start":20223.163,"end":20242.804,"text":"那江署長也公開對媒體表示說每天吃健康也無虞那我相信說江署長的專業一定是有所依據才會發表這麼有信心的喊話那問題的重點是在於民眾還是會擔心那如果有零減豬的豬肉大家肯定還是會優先去購買"},{"start":20244.425,"end":20270.57,"text":"那我這樣講沒錯啦好那可接受的健康風險可分為說主觀的跟客觀可以接受的那衛福部當你們訂出0.01ppm的檢測標準的時候對民眾而言它就是一個客觀的可接受的健康風險但是呢健康是無價的那健康當然他們是不可替代所以人民最重要的資產這不是你政府說安全我們大家就可以放心的標準"},{"start":20271.05,"end":20289.635,"text":"那對於這些有害健康的這個任何風險任何理性的民眾都不會願意去承擔那台灣民眾他們比較在意的就是說我們大家最在意的是一個零減出的這個健康風險的一個概念也就是說主觀可接受的這個健康風險其實對很多民眾來講它是零"},{"start":20291.776,"end":20317.296,"text":"那所以署長我這樣講也沒錯嘛那到底這也就是為什麼說這個議題明明有的時候就沒有超標你們也都放行了可是還是要你們來立法院做專報嘛然後接受每一位委員對你們的質詢啊我想大家都很想知道說對於這些檢測出來的豬肉即使是放行了那它的流向流向何去何從"},{"start":20318.297,"end":20339.465,"text":"大家都不希望買到這一批豬肉所以你們回答各界的這個態度不要只是告訴民眾說這些豬肉是多麼的合乎標準多麼的無害因為如果你們是這樣的態度這個可能有的這個健康的這些風險你們就是在強迫民眾要拋棄這個民眾自己主觀的這些疑慮然後選擇相信你們自認客觀的專業"},{"start":20345.807,"end":20366.614,"text":"那我想就是說大家在不同的世界不同的語言也就如同這個署長說剛剛署長的這個很一個專業的京劇客觀又專業的京劇就是萊豬殘留量合格每天吃也健康無虞所以同樣的道理對於這個學術文獻上的報告有助於這個民眾"},{"start":20369.315,"end":20386.004,"text":"實質來提升的健康效益的食品民眾都有意願想要購買來使用那你們卻是要用這種就是說落伍的天花板標準去認定這些不實誇張宣稱涉及這個醫療效能然後讓我們民眾還有這些業者無所適從嘛"},{"start":20387.225,"end":20410.946,"text":"那你們就是 這很像是過去那種戒嚴時代對於這個新聞歌曲的政治審查一樣只要提到這個主觀的這些健康效應你們就認為說 啊 阿公阿來啊 阿公會咧 這種宣傳所以沒有辦法容忍大家對於保健食品的主觀感受我今天是特別點出這些也沒有要跟你們做一些專業上的爭論因為這不同世界不同語言嘛 那"},{"start":20411.366,"end":20437.631,"text":"我現在就是說其實一般民眾不是醫療專業的人員他沒有能力沒有那個意圖去聲稱涉及醫療效能這些言論除非說你們對於自己的這個醫療專業是很沒有信心的所以你們不能接受民眾的民眾這些主觀可接受的這些風險是零然後也沒有辦法去接受民眾有權利去購買然後可以提升自己的健康狀態的任何食品"},{"start":20438.531,"end":20461.496,"text":"也不能接受說民眾可以表達自己使用保健食品的這些心得嘛所以我希望透過今天這樣子的這個討論是凸顯你們說可能有比較有正向幫助健康保健食品然後人民使用後產生主觀的這個健康意識其實是被箝制的啦我要點出這些而且不被不被允許被討論那好結論齁"},{"start":20465.854,"end":20494.49,"text":"之前質詢你們有就是說也有認同本席也願意就是說在這個那時候質詢完兩個月內食品宣傳廣告認定的這個準則你們要修改那我也知道在如火如荼的進行當中那現在就是說那新的準則修訂好之前法規的命令是個過渡時期那過渡時期那你們現在接下來是要用哪個標準去執行"},{"start":20495.49,"end":20501.558,"text":"那新的標準出來 近期或之前被裁罰的可不可以申請退回"},{"start":20503.171,"end":20526.514,"text":"這邊先跟委員進一步的報告謝謝委員進來的一些指導特別對於保健食品的功能性的持續的確我們在署內做了非常非常大幅度的一些去討論希望在範圍之內能把它的語句更精準更能夠回到功能性食品上面的能夠標示所以往這邊走是我們持續在努力的"},{"start":20528.035,"end":20556.803,"text":"至於說裁罰這個部分因為是因為釋法性我們是雖然說目前一定是所謂的輔導先行的概念那但是在裁罰部分已經有裁罰的部分可能都在地方的衛生局裡面對衛生局那我們現在那你們有沒有辦法在很短期內譬如一週內呢你們把你們的那個正面表列那些認定準則啊好就是那個譬如說得使用的詞句還有得敘述的生理功能的詞句或"},{"start":20557.923,"end":20582.459,"text":"類似詞句的這個類似詞句你們可以都把它列出來嗎因為這好像文字獄一樣認為中文好難就時間上面我覺得能不能允許多給我們一點時間我覺得因為做一些改變需要稍微更精準一點點的時間那我們會我們盡快有任何的進度都來跟委員這邊跟進一步的一些交流跟溝通我們會所以等一下我確認一下所以你現在是輔導先行嗎"},{"start":20584.98,"end":20611.089,"text":"這個輔導先行是一直以來我們都是輔導先行的那就是說你們以那個新的準則的這個方向去做輔導先行其實是現在的準則也是都是輔導先行的好那沒有辦法把類似詞句那個把它詳細列出來我們會盡快的跟委員這邊我們確立之後比較能夠聚焦之後跟委員之間做完整的好所以未來還有類似詞句這樣的字眼嗎"},{"start":20612.849,"end":20637.167,"text":"呃這些詞句上其實都會有一些修飾之後符合能夠去那你們還是要把它列出來因為我還是回到就是人不一樣的時候你的類似標準就會不一樣就會回到署長用的上次在回答我的質詢的時候用抽象這兩個字但抽象在你罰的時候要明確所以你不能再抽象下去好不好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":20639.733,"end":20647.176,"text":"謝謝陳偉仁、謝謝部長感謝趙薇謝謝不要說得太久啦最後我們請黃國昌主席詢問謝謝趙薇,麻煩有請部長還有廠長事實上"},{"start":20681.744,"end":20695.234,"text":"我還在等時間就開始跑了,沒有關係啦,三一提醒而已啦開始今天質詢的主題以前,我先請教一下朱市長市長現在休息期間的時候,還有要同仁聖敦嗎?"},{"start":20698.683,"end":20724.597,"text":"沒有 從那個事件發生之後就先停止了先停止 以後會繼續嗎現在同仁就是都是都是怎麼樣有一些就是自己放音樂他就會自己站起來沒有啦 同仁如果自願做的話沒有人會禁止嘛像我晚上如果要去健身房深蹲那也是我的選擇嘛"},{"start":20726.667,"end":20753.931,"text":"但是我自己要做深蹲 跟我上面的長官用逼迫 可能從你的角度來講太強烈了用你鼓勵 沒有關係啦各方有各方的說法嘛 現在我要確定一件事情你還有繼續鼓勵同仁做深蹲嗎基本上已經沒有了你會不會再要同仁去比福利挺身"},{"start":20755.515,"end":20766.402,"text":"那個真的是誤會但是你不會這樣做嗎本來就沒有這樣做那未來也不會嗎當然不會未來也不會我只是要這個承諾啦"},{"start":20770.695,"end":20792.956,"text":"衛福部的調查報告出來各界有很多指教啦我相信部長有看到啦我相信司長也有看到我今天之所以問這個問題我不是要接以前的倉巴是希望我要確保這件事情不會再發生部長可以承諾齁可以好進入今天的主題啊就有關於啊"},{"start":20794.848,"end":20816.693,"text":"豬肉用萊克多巴胺很多委員大家都很關心今天過一個臨時提案我也看到了從我們所謂的客觀可接受的健康風險管理到底萊克多巴胺的劑量多少是客觀可接受對人體不會造成傷害"},{"start":20820.238,"end":20845.019,"text":"我來跟委員說說目前定起來因為國內針對牛跟豬牛可食的牛肉部分是0.01ppm那豬肉部分跟其他可食部分是0.01ppm所以這是客觀可接受的健康風險嗎就是在很多獨立的專家食安的專家以及在所以這些專家所建立的標準我們的衛福部也是接受嗎"},{"start":20846.543,"end":20871.284,"text":"當初在整個的討論的過程中後來是有通過這樣的標準在消除這邊要按照這樣的基準來做管理對啊所以我就說你就針對問題回答嘛0.01ppm這件事情是我們的衛福部代表我們政府的立場客觀可接受的風險嘛是嗎是的那所以在這個劑量之下對人體健康不會有傷害嗎"},{"start":20872.307,"end":20897.15,"text":"就是沒有證據特別提到他的傷害性是是是我們目前國內養豬的時候可以用來剋奪白鞍嗎目前國內是沒有那為什麼國內要禁止使用剛剛你不是說0.01ppm是客觀的標準是科學的標準是專家討論以後的標準現在我就想不懂了在台灣"},{"start":20898.615,"end":20914.443,"text":"百分之一百禁用萊克多巴胺他的理由是什麼因為台灣的豬一旦有萊克多巴胺不管劑量有多少都對健康有風險嗎我想應該不是這樣子的那是什麼"},{"start":20915.205,"end":20931.795,"text":"那是當初的一個背景之下希望對...當初什麼背景?因為國內的豬肉大概佔百分之九十所以相對於進口的有可能允許的情況之下中間那個競合對國人的選擇上面那有提供不一樣的選擇市場上面齁不一樣的選擇是消費者的選擇啊這跟國家法規範的標準是兩回事啊不要混為一談啊"},{"start":20942.069,"end":20965.206,"text":"您今天作為專家作為政務官那我就希望代表政府的立場告訴全台灣人民我們客觀可接受專家的標準到底是什麼嗎現在我就想不懂了如果我們政府的標準是認為0.01ppm是客觀可接受的風險"},{"start":20966.755,"end":20973.521,"text":"那為什麼國內的豬肉禁止使用萊克多巴胺我只要不要超過0.01ppm就好啦不是這樣嗎"},{"start":20976.101,"end":20996.516,"text":"就這個議題上面可能他決定的層次會超越在食藥署在訂定當時安全的一個標準的一個考量之下講的具體一點所謂超越食藥署的標準是如何的超越法我想他是整個行政團隊從是哪個行政團隊很早以來在租目前的這個行政團隊還是也用這個標準嗎"},{"start":20999.33,"end":21026.63,"text":"我想在整體上在針對美豬的訂定的時候已經訂完標準我們在所以我現在今天在委員會裡面我們要談科學就來談科學嘛我現在搞不懂啊外國的豬肉可以台灣的豬肉不可以外國的豬肉0.01以下的就是安全台灣0.01以下的還是不安全"},{"start":21028.032,"end":21044.095,"text":"理由到底是什麼台灣的是沒有使用是我知道嘛沒有使用跟法規上面不能使用是兩回事嘛剛剛我已經把這個問題的層次剖析得很清楚了嘛消費者的選擇是消費者的選擇啊消費者他當然有選擇的自由啊我們在資訊的提供上有沒有給消費者選擇的自由那是另外一個層次的事情啊"},{"start":21055.202,"end":21079.977,"text":"我現在的問題是規範上面的標準為什麼有這樣的差別對待這邊跟委員做進入報告因為這一點是當初在農業部定下所謂國內養豬不用萊克多巴胺是提到的是說希望能夠確保台灣豬肉競爭力所以這部分其實是跨部會在提到這件事情你的意思是什麼沒有使用萊克多巴胺會比較有競爭力是嗎"},{"start":21083.44,"end":21103.436,"text":"否則你剛講那句話根本不成立啊沒有使用萊克多巴胺會比較有競爭力是這樣嗎這個我不是很確定每一個消費者的想要的奇怪這個不是你剛講的嗎還是你剛的意思是說沒有使用萊克多巴胺會降低競爭力這個是農業部提出來的所以不關衛福部的事情嗎"},{"start":21104.615,"end":21117.474,"text":"這個部分我們是在健康的標準上面的維護所以我今天就跟你討論健康的標準你繞來繞去不敢回答嘛從衛福部的觀點來講0.01ppm以下就是安全的嘛是嗎"},{"start":21118.908,"end":21142.345,"text":"是吧我們在邊境查查的時候一直用這樣的標準在進行那你在邊境查查為什麼用這個標準因為這個標準以下是安全的嘛對嗎那相對我們在國內的後市場端等等的國內的查查也一樣的用同樣的標準你的意思是說在國內也是用一樣的標準對我們都沒有查到目前還未檢出的所以如果在國內裡面查到0.001ppm的話"},{"start":21144.767,"end":21162.965,"text":"在法規上面是允許的嗎我講的是本國的豬肉在法規上面是允許的嗎0.001ppm就像現在澳洲豬腳查到的量是一樣的目前是不行目前是不行嘛對嘛所以我就在問你嘛差別對待的理由在哪裡嘛"},{"start":21165.466,"end":21185.002,"text":"這邊跟委員特別說明了 當初其實應該是在農業部訂下這樣子特別提到了這樣一段話 它是提到說為確保台灣豬肉競爭力 台灣豬絕對不使用瘦肉精對嘛 所以我就問你嘛 確保台灣豬肉競爭力是什麼意思嘛奇怪 打高空 講一些空話"},{"start":21186.645,"end":21212.7,"text":"講一些一般人民聽得懂的好不好什麼叫提升台灣豬肉有競爭力就代表的是說不用萊克多巴胺比較有競爭力嘛是不是這樣是嗎還是農業部這句話什麼意思作為衛福部的官員其實您也不是很清楚這個部分的確我們尊重跨部會農業部的說法對啊所以如果連你都看不懂的話一般的消費者怎麼看得懂"},{"start":21214.452,"end":21235.909,"text":"連我們衛福部的官員都看不懂啊一般的消費者怎麼會看得懂啊還是我們現在在政府當官的專門講抽象的打太極講虛無縹緲的搞到農業部那句話是什麼意思連衛福部的官員都聽不懂那一般的人看得懂嗎一般的人看得懂嗎我打開天窗說亮話"},{"start":21244.045,"end":21250.887,"text":"台灣豬絕不使用瘦肉精提升國產豬肉競爭力為什麼因為消費者不希望有嘛旅遊就是這樣嘛這有什麼好閃躲的本來就是這個樣子嘛那為什麼一般的消費者不喜歡有萊劑的大家會擔心嘛將心比心嘛站在一般人的觀點來思考這個問題嘛這個事情有這麼複雜嗎"},{"start":21274.432,"end":21287.719,"text":"為了要幫一個奇怪的政策辯護繞來繞去 繞來繞去為什麼要做這樣的宣示就是希望台灣的消費者安心事情就這麼簡單嘛部長我說的對不對從民眾的立場來講應該是這樣會比國內做事比較有競爭力"},{"start":21298.618,"end":21321.879,"text":"你覺得消費者會關心台灣的豬肉有沒有競爭力喔?消費者關心的是台灣的豬肉好不好吃?安不安全?是嗎?他們會比較傾向於買這種新豬肉對嘛!阿你覺得消費者應該要有資的權利嗎?到底有還沒有?消費者有沒有權利知道?當然要有資的權利當然要有資的權利嘛!阿所以如果有驗出的話應不應該要標示?"},{"start":21323.066,"end":21349.688,"text":"我們標示原產地就知道他的...你這樣子...部長你這樣回答問題很危險你標的原產地就知道原料的原產地不是啦這樣風險非常的高啦因為有的澳洲的有用有的沒有用嘛那消費者在意的是什麼消費者在意的是說到底有用沒有用嘛剛剛你也承認啊說消費者應該有吃的權利啊所以我才問你啊是不是應該要標示啊"},{"start":21350.848,"end":21377.349,"text":"阿你覺得應不應該標示現在的國內國外的牛豬都是一體試用就是原料原產地的標誌這樣子這個事情未來會不會改變這個事情未來會不會改變現在大家擔心的是第二個層次的事情了啦原產地的標誌會不會堅持我們目前就是啊我知道目前是這樣我的意思是會不會繼續堅持下去啊譬如說美國認為這個是非關稅"},{"start":21380.618,"end":21391.539,"text":"障礙那要求台灣改衛福部的立場會不會鬆動衛福部的立場就是站在維護人民的健康跟食安所以會不會鬆動"},{"start":21394.855,"end":21413.2,"text":"當然還是人民的利益跟國家的發展這個是我們考量的你講的很有藝術啦我拜託你講一些庶民聽得懂的話啦美國要求原產地標示拿掉台灣政府立場會不會鬆動會還是不會"},{"start":21415.95,"end":21440.964,"text":"你有比較有氣魄的說絕對不會鬆動我跟台灣人民保證衛福部的立場很堅定我們為了要捍衛台灣消費者的權益這件事情的立場我們絕對不鬆動你這樣說就好了嘛衛福部一定保證我們一定要堅持食安至上那至於說那個所以原產地標示你會不會堅持我們就按照這個根據國際的標準的一個"},{"start":21445.135,"end":21467.941,"text":"的規定我們按規定來處理啊所以現在的規定是什麼現在的規定是什麼現在的規定就是原料原產地要標示嘛啊這個規定會不會變動會不會隨著美方的壓力而變動其實大家在意的就是這個問題嘛你講的支支吾吾的你直接回答問題有這麼難嗎還是上面有交代這個事情不可以承諾"},{"start":21469.639,"end":21495.708,"text":"是有交代是嗎?沒有啦,你如果說有交代我就算了啦因為我為難你沒有意思嘛這沒有交代,我們只是按照大家的所以如果沒有交代,部長你就不用擔心,你就比較努力在這邊就承諾,我承諾原產地的標示我們現在的標準絕對不會鬆動,好不好因為政府是一體的啦所以是會有哪個部會有意見?"},{"start":21498.567,"end":21525.565,"text":"那這個我也不清楚我們就是一起來討論站在人民第一國家至上的立場我相信含口號都非常會部長真的辛苦真的要擔任這個部長真的很辛苦要想出各式各樣抽象的詞來迴避問題但是我不為難你我只表達一個立場過去"},{"start":21528.874,"end":21545.641,"text":"我們為了國際經貿情勢台灣人讓不過台灣人讓不過為什麼我說是台灣人讓不過從我剛質詢的第一個問題就清楚呈現出來我們讓不過結果換到什麼這個是現在大家在問的問題這是現在大家在問的問題"},{"start":21550.289,"end":21574.046,"text":"現在我們要不要退第二步這個是現在大家關心的問題從我得到民間社會絕大多數的反應認為原產定的標示退無可退不能再退了我希望這些人民的聲音部長要放在心裡面好不好可以嗎你沒有發現我已經退一步沒有讓你承諾了"},{"start":21579.315,"end":21586.9,"text":"我簡單的要你把這句話放在心裡面,這樣沒有很困難吧?黃委員的話,我永遠都放在心裡好,謝謝好,謝謝黃委員,謝謝部長,辛苦了本日會議詢問全部結束委員顏寬恆、張家俊、伍麗華、翁曉琳所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":21608.682,"end":21627.634,"text":"現在作以下決定報告局詢談完畢委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定本次會議到此結束 現在上會"},{"start":21638.922,"end":21640.363,"text":"我以後會注意啦"}]}},{"id":"16657","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16657","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd1a3f2a9ffa300804ad9f551ce5fa921f14bfadd538e1bbbf92803fdb3f397d9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部及教育部就「人本交通」及「交通安全」施行狀況進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計2案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-08","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-08T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-08T13:10:00+08:00","duration":16785,"影片長度":"04:39:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 - 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陳文瑞局長"},{"start":2488.561,"end":2514.983,"text":"高工局趙先華局長運營所林紀國所長國土署都市基礎工程組蔡義強組長警政署交通組陳明志組長教育部宗教師嚴寶岳副市長"},{"start":2518.115,"end":2538.436,"text":"學務及特殊教育師鄭文堯專委專貿委員國民及學前署薛承佑專貿委員主計總署基金預算處李政道科長"},{"start":2542.711,"end":2549.06,"text":"現在先處理報告事項之解凍案共有兩案請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":2554.298,"end":2577.913,"text":"報告事項處理一百一三年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案及二案一交通部函檢送台灣港務股份有限公司新增決議第一項暫處包裝代理及加工費預算凍結兩千萬元書面報告案二交通部函檢送桃園國際機場股份有限公司新增決議第五項一般建築及設備計畫預算凍結一千萬元書面報告案宣讀完畢"},{"start":2584.665,"end":2610.761,"text":"宣讀完畢113年度中央政府總預算案決議個案書面報告已送達均予以被查提報願會本日會議進行人本交通及交通安全實行狀況之類專題報告請交通部陳部長報告"},{"start":2621.926,"end":2630.975,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生今天應邀至貴委員會就人本交通及交通安全實施狀況進行專案專題報告,敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":2635.37,"end":2645.354,"text":"道路交通安全是全民所關切的重要議題113年的30日交通事故死亡人數為2950人相較於112年減少73人減少了2.4%是近三年來的最低此外行人死亡人數為366人相較112年減少14人減少3.7%"},{"start":2662.56,"end":2688.363,"text":"是自97年以來的最低的數字114年1至2月的30日交通事故死亡人數為469人是108年以來也就是6年來最低而行人的死亡在1到2月是62人也是從有記錄以來也是民國97年以來的最低"},{"start":2689.537,"end":2703.903,"text":"近年來交通部攜手中央各相關部會與地方政府積極推動與執行多項提升道路安全措施包含實施道路安全道路交通安全基本法完成路口改善"},{"start":2705.273,"end":2719.074,"text":"行人穿越道退縮以及校園周邊道路改善推動停讓文化修法落實行人優先推動道安總動員平台定期公布道安成效等等的作為為了強化"},{"start":2720.456,"end":2748.874,"text":"行人安全與防制交通事故交通部於114年推動道安三件政策持續推動從工程教育宣導監理等面向推動各項防制作為積極推動人本交通進行行人環境以及道安工程改善工作加重不停讓行人致死傷之罰則以及吊罩的年限"},{"start":2749.835,"end":2773.206,"text":"也強化了停讓文化的宣導擴大高齡者社區宣講以及配發反光帽等等的措施以提升能見度以上僅先摘要說明本部所提出的報告重點接下來要請陸正道安司黃運貴司長向各位委員報告詳細的內容敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2783.548,"end":2807.217,"text":"請黃社長好 主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生今天將依序就113年的道安安全防治作為跟114年的道路安全的精進作為做說明首先說明113年的道路安全的防治作為113年的道安防治作為包括完善的道安政策跟計劃及法規緊齋要說明"},{"start":2810.979,"end":2825.258,"text":"去年3年1月1號施行的道路交通安全基本法1月25號行政院召開了首次的中央大安會報那去年總共召開了4次那在2月7號核定了國家道路安全交通"},{"start":2825.959,"end":2847.954,"text":"到交通安全綱要計畫那5月1號總統公布了行人交通安全設施條例那行人交通安全設施條例的施行細則也以同年的10月1號來施行我們也完成了道路交通標誌標線號誌設置參考指引並且於114年的1月3號含送各縣政府參聚"},{"start":2849.955,"end":2869.963,"text":"交通部也辦了七場的公路道路設計相關的技術標準檢討的精進會議來確定交通工程規範還有公路路線設計規範以行人、庇護島、公路照明及市區與公路共線段之短期的精進措施交通部公路局也完成了整體的道路規劃指引"},{"start":2872.401,"end":2888.55,"text":"在積極辦理工程改善方面中央補助地方799處優先的改善入口截至今年4月底為止已完成了798處那交通部公務局轄管省道入口完成了2978處入口改善"},{"start":2890.731,"end":2906.946,"text":"在行人專用級早開10項全國已經累積完成了5,778處在行人穿越退縮部分全國已經累積完成了2,226處另外在校園周邊道路改善部分已完成了228處"},{"start":2910.188,"end":2933.073,"text":"我們也強力加強教育宣導在停讓文化方面停讓文化已經納入了國家道路交通安全的綱要計畫的子計畫對於各項道安觀念的規劃多面向宣導的作為外並透過多元媒體如電視網路、廣播皆同各縣市政府、民間團體及相關單位共同推廣"},{"start":2934.583,"end":2956.738,"text":"為持續深化全民的停讓文化同時針對行人事故防治作為進行來先導那交通部也攜手各縣政府跟555家的企業或團體以2013年舉辦全國交通安全月主題為停讓行人共辦理了11場實體活動亦有同步使用網路電視等推廣"},{"start":2959.656,"end":2970.001,"text":"在提升高齡到安知識方面我們結合了陸老師及跨機關資源進行交通安全的宣導深入社區林嶺與偏野地區"},{"start":2971.623,"end":2991.235,"text":"我們也編制了營法族的交通安全手冊113年加印了27萬冊跟大型車視野死角以內輪叉掛圖分送給高齡長者及合格路老師教師使用亦將手冊電子檔上傳於交通部的168交通安全路口網"},{"start":2992.396,"end":3020.796,"text":"為增進兒少的安全智能交通部積極加強兒少交通安全教育及先導依照兒少相關交通議題及時事製作多元主題性的檔案文宣另辦理校園交通安全行動劇共試場由專業的兒童劇團演出將學生應學習的交通安全觀念融入劇情中以寓教於樂的劇情演出讓學生們邊看邊學"},{"start":3023.049,"end":3040.005,"text":"我們此外也製作了低中高年級適用的懶人包並將懶人包內容陸續轉換成線上的闖關小遊戲交通安全保衛站低中年級版的已經在去年12月跟今年1月分別上線"},{"start":3040.706,"end":3055.527,"text":"那一高年級版是預計今年6月份推出那交通部以教育部至110年學年度起實施高中以下各級學校交通安全課程模組也就是所謂的五階段課程模組"},{"start":3056.946,"end":3072.033,"text":"在強化監禮作為方面進行了法令修正113年10月31日起 已按駕駛人的違規程度分級恢復換發短期駕照 受吊銷駕照禁考6年以上 受吊銷駕照"},{"start":3073.514,"end":3099.362,"text":"進考未達六年重新考領受調控駕照一年以上後調控駕照未達一年者分別核發後換發效期一年、兩年、三年後六年之駕駛執照並應接受道路交通安全講習、截清交通罰環且統一綠定需以六年觀察期內無再受調控駕照處分方可依規定換發一般駕照"},{"start":3100.917,"end":3124.103,"text":"配合行人交通安全設施條例修正的發布道路交通安全規則部分條文相關行人優先區規定自113年10月1日起施行強化運輸業管理為加強汽車運輸業落實入口停讓行人交通部公路局以透過教育訓練、公司查核及入口稽查等措施督導客戶業者辦理"},{"start":3126.084,"end":3139.929,"text":"由各區監理所致公司查核確認各業者教育訓練辦理情形那交通部公務局業與地方政府合作以重要入口辦理監警聯合稽查113年度共辦理了1518場式的入口稽查那針對貨運商業及遊覽車客運業駕駛人定期透過違規挑檔挑出"},{"start":3150.672,"end":3160.458,"text":"高違規駕駛人每季召回參加各區監獄所佔開設之交通安全教育訓練專班113年開設32班調訓了624名駕駛人加強駕駛訓練方面我們強化汽機車筆試提供的鑑別度自113年3月12日起掏太除了無鑑別題目那113年6月5日起機車筆試納入危險感知影片試題"},{"start":3180.03,"end":3207.526,"text":"配合機車駕駛訓練新增實際道路駕訓需要增訂合法機車學習駕照規定在強化社會溝通及協助地方政府機制部分113年6月24日道安總動員平台上線來強化社會的溝通及管考機制提升揭露資訊的完整性也提供民眾通報入口改善的建議"},{"start":3209.318,"end":3226.625,"text":"除每年提供縣市診斷報告提供研議防治作為參考外令交通部運輸研究所亦透過大安提升行動小組協助成效落後縣市診斷改善並以每月的縣市大安匯報聯繫會議或是中央大安匯報督導"},{"start":3228.866,"end":3246.568,"text":"大灣成效不佳縣市進行簡報每月定期召開大灣記者會公布將近30日死亡人數統計並呈現縣市大灣執行績效以工程改善成果那接下來說明114年大灣路安全的精進作為"},{"start":3248.038,"end":3263.776,"text":"交通部於114年更新具體強化人行交通安全以事故防治也正定了114年交通部道路安全交通安全推動計畫跟道安三界的政策來持續提升道路交通安全"},{"start":3265.202,"end":3294.422,"text":"有關道安三件方面第一支件為增加入口停止線及行川線的最小進去將停止線與行川線同時設置之進去至現行的一至三公尺修正為二至三公尺為原則願以一百一十四年三月二十五日預告修正草案三十天並以四月二十四日預告期滿目前正會診各界的建議辦理相關法制作業預計於六月底前修正發布"},{"start":3295.422,"end":3315.182,"text":"第二支建為省道路口照明改善路口照明改善我們會以路段為黃光路口改為白光為換裝的原則推動路口照明雙色溫示範案以光害影響無疑環境條件下示範讓行人通過路口時更易被察覺"},{"start":3316.423,"end":3339.079,"text":"第三支建為汽車隔熱紙透光力的改善汽車車窗及擋風玻璃連貼隔熱紙的明暗程度對於駕駛人的行車視野辨識及操作能力皆有關聯未來將納管汽車玻璃隔熱紙可見光透光力實施規劃朝提供安全指引"},{"start":3340.9,"end":3352.552,"text":"4年3月啟動了研擬安全指引的相關資訊目前持續與相關單位跟利害關係人溝通並臨近共識預計在6月公布安全指引"},{"start":3354.312,"end":3370.306,"text":"在工程面我們將持續推動永續提升人行安全計畫我們篩選出四項的重點推動項目及年度預計要完成的目標包含入口行人安全設施改善1316處人行道改善長度120.75公里減少入車障礙物703處以及完成校園周邊及行車安全道路159處"},{"start":3381.536,"end":3406.673,"text":"持續推動省道交通工程的改善作業交通部公務局持續針對轄管的省道推動5000處入口的工程改善400處入口的照明強化減少130處的路徹障礙物以及6公里的人行道改善作業來提升省道的整體道路安全更新完善道安政策計畫及法規"},{"start":3408.752,"end":3424.206,"text":"交通部持續透過公路道路設計相關的技術標準的檢討進行會議確認交通工程規範、公路路線設計規範修正條文的可行性另外也辦理了道路交通標誌標線號誌設置規則參考補充指引複雜情境的範例及通盤檢討計畫"},{"start":3431.132,"end":3449.871,"text":"在教育宣導面根據不同目標族群依其特性設計文獻及精準投放媒體通路如高齡者偏好電視年輕人常使用網路社群運輸業駕駛員透過廣播接受即時入況訊息等以下就不同的目標族群規劃辦理說明"},{"start":3452.513,"end":3467.555,"text":"強化兒少安全我們預計在110年5月底完成交通安全保衛戰高年級版的懶人包跟遊戲以系統性的圖文及互動遊戲從小培養兒童交通安全重要的基礎觀念"},{"start":3469.898,"end":3485.529,"text":"113年推動國民小學通學交通安全影片計畫規劃由國小學校依取校園周邊學生通學道路的特性輔助自行自拍以步行、自行車與家訪接送為主題的交通安全影片"},{"start":3486.874,"end":3510.712,"text":"增強高齡安全我們要持續培訓及精進陸老師計畫做互動式的交通安全宣教加強社區與偏鄉宣講在4月已完成的反光棒球帽設計圖稿預計6月底製作完成後分送民眾期盼透過佩戴反光棒球帽強化行人濃健度提醒所有用路人"},{"start":3512.926,"end":3537.859,"text":"維護行人安全我們積極的形塑停讓文化落實車輛停讓行人及停讓的正確用路觀念將加強使用廣播後網路社群通路觸及駕駛人以強化的停讓觀念那9月份我們會舉辦交通安全夜我們設定了車輛停讓行人為主題來結合縣市宣導也鼓勵民間企業團體一起響應"},{"start":3540.954,"end":3568.829,"text":"建立交通安全教育園區去年6月18日啟用了新竹區監理所桃園監理站全國所作監理站交通安全教育園區提供民眾以封閉區域體驗實際道路情境及體驗的互動學習台北市所、志嶺站、台北所、嘉義所、雲林站及高雄所等四個監理所站目前正在興建中預計在今年度下半年陸續完工啟用"},{"start":3570.677,"end":3585.303,"text":"在監裡面嚴厲加重不停讓人不停讓行人自然死傷罰則所涉道路交通管理處罰條例第44條第67條修正草案以違反道路交通管理事件統一罰則"},{"start":3586.724,"end":3613.239,"text":"裁罰基準及處理細則第二條附表修正草案將致人輕傷逾七千兩百元提高至一萬八千元重傷後死亡一例以最高額三萬六千元處罰致人輕傷延吊扣駕駛執照一年檢討延長為吊扣一至兩年致人重傷後死亡吊銷駕照延三年不得考照延長為四到五年不得考照"},{"start":3614.318,"end":3628.492,"text":"在運輸管理業管理部分 持續加強汽車運輸業督導所屬駕駛人落實行車安全 向業者宣導及要求落實針對貨運商業及遊覽車客運業高規規駕駛人檢討專案調訓機制以及在5月底邀集相關單位共同研商討論精進方案"},{"start":3636.86,"end":3652.926,"text":"也辦理推動汽車運輸業建立系統性安全管理制度推動汽車運輸業者自主安全管理制度研議依不同的公司規模要求應由安全管理部門及後負責專責安全管理人員或兼任安全管理人員"},{"start":3654.326,"end":3676.878,"text":"實際提升辦理機車駕訓補助與道路安駕訓練參訓人數機車考照前EA報名時危險感知評量新增加體驗項目提升考生辨識危及行車安全時儘早採取必要措施避免發生危險能力各陣審定機車道路訓練路線規劃事辦考前道路訓練及提供參訓補助"},{"start":3683.055,"end":3696.056,"text":"我們會持續資訊公開 道安總動員持續每頁公布事故數據及工程改善前行也會持續每頁召開道安記者會並新增限制分享道安作為"},{"start":3697.742,"end":3717.936,"text":"交通部114年積極強化行人交通安全與事故防治將透過推動道安三支建政策及道安與交通設施改善提供友善安全之用路環境並透過文宣及媒體強化駕駛正確的用路觀念建立良好的用路文化"},{"start":3718.737,"end":3735.143,"text":"交通部將持續與中央相關部會及地方政府通力合作並與民間企業、全體國民共同參加達成2030年降低整體與行人死亡數50%之目標以上報告敬請各位委員支持指教謝謝"},{"start":3744.386,"end":3766.762,"text":"這一部所送書面報告 請各位參考並列入紀錄 刊登公報現在進行詢問 先宣告以下事項因為今天登記的人數很多 人本交通大家都很重視 所以請大家"},{"start":3767.935,"end":3795.827,"text":"遵截時間 宣達時間出席委員5加1分鐘備席委員4分鐘那我們也請每1分鐘再響鈴一次提醒大家委員發言登記於10點半截止各委員如果有臨時提案請於10點前提出以便醫事人員會診暫定10點半休息10分鐘總委員則上不休息"},{"start":3797.001,"end":3813.175,"text":"現在請登記第一位委員 洪孟凱委員發言主席謝謝 麻煩請陳世凱部長請部長部長"},{"start":3822.745,"end":3838.172,"text":"委員好本席注意到禮拜二的質詢那禮拜三嘉義市政府也先開了記者會說是最好的母親節禮物但沒想到不到半天的時間馬上交通部又出來開記者會說院長是口誤"},{"start":3839.724,"end":3861.619,"text":"院長當時在備詢的時候你有沒有在旁邊我在旁邊你在旁邊那如果院長口誤部長了解的話那從頭到尾的那個質詢裡面有沒有提醒院長說這個是口誤報告委員當時是因為在答詢的過程最後幾秒鐘院長這樣子回答所以有沒有提醒院長說是口誤"},{"start":3863.621,"end":3885.154,"text":"當時因為是最後要結束的時候院長說了這句話所以來不及有來不及嗎後面的時間來我們看一下院長其實講蠻長的院長直接講說中央可以負擔372億院長親口講中央可以負擔372億沒錯嘛我們現在在問的是我們現在在問的是說你也在旁邊是"},{"start":3886.738,"end":3910.104,"text":"一個是行政院長 一個是交通部長兩個人都是我們交通最大這一個是院長 一個是部長結果在立法院接受總執行備詢立法委員的詢答的時候親口講說中央可以負擔372億那你也沒有覺得說有任何的問題也沒有提醒說院長是講錯了那是代表是說你們兩位都狀況壞嗎"},{"start":3911.604,"end":3919.739,"text":"不是 那不是的話為什麼會 院長講了373 那現在請教院長說要給 交通部是不是不同意"},{"start":3921.893,"end":3945.742,"text":"所以讓大家覺得是說這可能是史上最大的詐騙案370億的詐騙案不過最快破案因為不到一天的時間馬上改口各個縣市的交通運輸尤其是輕軌跟捷運我們在100年的時候有公布了一個要點補助跟施作的要點我們全國都是一致性的原則這個不會改變"},{"start":3948.612,"end":3964.688,"text":"部長知不知道這個嘉義輕軌到底過去到現在的一個歷史脈絡知道我想你應該很清楚嘛是因為之前中央就曾經承諾過是說要全額補助嘛那2022年王國才部長你回去看資料啦如果說要再這樣子硬凹的話就真的是太不好看了"},{"start":3965.828,"end":3982.673,"text":"2022年的時候我們交通委員會也有去嘉義市考察那那個時候王國才部長也有提到這個是正式的新聞稿你也可以找到相關資料王國才部長有講過是說如果說現在嘉義市是BRT但是要轉成輕軌運量如果說有足夠的話可以來支持"},{"start":3983.473,"end":3998.631,"text":"中央可以來支持支持 是支持是補助的意思所以到目前為止比如說新北市的輕軌中央也支持部長你現在又要反質詢了是不是我沒有反質詢我是跟委員報告難道我在這邊不用向你報告嗎來啦 部長所以本席想要請教一下啦"},{"start":3999.872,"end":4028.171,"text":"本來以為我們真的可以在交通委員會也好或是說在院會也好看到建設不分藍綠縣市只要對的事情大家能夠支持所以當院長講到中央能夠負擔372億不到一天的時間居然是由交通部出來開記者會澄清那院長要不要為他的口誤來說明跟道歉這個部分我來道歉是幕僚提供的資料讓院長誤解了這個部分我必須道歉我昨天也道歉過"},{"start":4029.718,"end":4056.547,"text":"好所以是院長口誤院長講的話然後部長來幫忙洗地這個我必須要道歉因為是幕僚單位提供的資料讓院長誤解了這個我非常我們還是期待的是地方的建設中央能夠更關懷跟入治了解我們整個地方的發展啦憲北的條件跟嘉義的條件都是一樣所以我只要喊我只要講"},{"start":4057.447,"end":4072.923,"text":"新北也好 嘉義也好 北中南東我們都希望中央能夠看到我們各地的需求來 我想請教一下自由時報今天有一個頭版頭 我覺得很不錯交通部說早推綠燈5秒到10秒的這個號誌是 非常好"},{"start":4079.13,"end":4092.61,"text":"兩個部分行人專用實項跟行人早開事項的一個部分那現在我們有沒有比較具體的規劃因為我看了裡面講是說縣市有獎勵跟補助那補助的一個金額跟規模"},{"start":4094.475,"end":4110.268,"text":"說明一下我們有分三組直轄市是一組那非直轄市的部分我們有1000個入口有號誌的入口1000個以上跟1000個以下分兩組所以我們總共有三組那前兩名的部分就是推動前兩名的部分我們會有一些補助的獎勵"},{"start":4111.909,"end":4134.64,"text":"多少錢啊我現在看到有十五萬十萬十五萬你總共那是獎勵的金額來部長所以說總共在這個計畫裡面你直轄市兩名一個第一名十五萬第二名十萬縣轄市是非直轄市是十萬五萬所以你總共花四十萬元那真的是很"},{"start":4135.93,"end":4159.557,"text":"很偉大的政策本席必須說如果說因為本席我先講我的態度我是認同的因為行人如果說綠燈能夠找5秒到10秒的話行人先行因為有很多車輛是要右轉右轉你就會卡到如果說行人能夠先站上斑馬線要過馬路的時候他就可以先通過那未來很多的行人也有很多的駕駛也有提出來是說當"},{"start":4162.249,"end":4182.657,"text":"這個綠燈的時候 這個行人的號誌能夠也先變成紅燈讓最後有5到10秒的時間 駕駛也可以來右轉 對不對就不要車人相爭道嘛好 那這個做法我支持啊那可是你現在只有提出來說獎勵的部分就是前個 前兩名的縣市一個15萬 一個10萬"},{"start":4184.558,"end":4198.329,"text":"報告委員路口的建置如果需要經費其實內政部跟交通部都有另外的補助方案這個只是針對說如果你可以增加的數字多的話我們給他一個獎勵的機制沒有錯我現在講的是說因為你還有提到達成目標有獎勵跟補助嘛"},{"start":4205.074,"end":4219.776,"text":"那我們現在講說獎勵的部分你是要預計花40萬如果說真的40萬能夠讓所有縣市之前都知道該做這件事情但都沒有做結果現在我們的陳部長只要花40萬的經費就可以達成這樣子的一個"},{"start":4220.905,"end":4241.154,"text":"目標的話那也是非常了不起的一個成就但另外一個部分另外一個部分你要怎麼樣能夠鼓勵我覺得比較實質的是怎麼樣改善各路口其實本期今天提出來是看到目標很好我想要請教的是你實質怎麼做能夠讓各縣市真的來去做這件事情"},{"start":4241.674,"end":4270.479,"text":"有沒有跟各縣市交通局開會過有 我們都有跟他們開會然後也有鼓勵他們必須要這麼做也跟委員報告其實我們之後當然還會再要求跟拜託啦因為地方政府要配合我們才有辦法做到那也跟委員報告其實我們在之前目前以行人早開實項跟專用實項目前我們已經完成了六千個入口已經完成了六千個入口過去在沒有獎勵的過程當中已經完成了六千個那未來我們會獎勵我們希望能夠在更多的這個目標可以提出來"},{"start":4270.959,"end":4295.94,"text":"所以未來希望能夠達到多少目標我們目前是希望能夠推動1700處1765處的樣子在今年年底嗎在今年年底之前好我們來看一下你的執行率那還有更重要的是一定要讓國人更了解這樣子的一個號誌的一個用意以及它真的能夠幫助到行人的安全"},{"start":4296.681,"end":4322.882,"text":"最後簡單一分鐘我想請教一下因為現在遊覽車要強制加設駕駛的身份設備原本是說是今年的年中就要開始實施但去年也有看到有些抗議那其實我們說實在話我想你們一定要很清楚部長也好 司長也好都很清楚現在遊覽車很多的駕駛他其實靠航比較多所以他自己要負擔那台車的成本"},{"start":4323.402,"end":4350.832,"text":"那如果說又再加上的話其實車行是不會去理會的所以變成是說那個價值要自己來增加那現在看到我們的這一個政策可能是要明年一月元旦上路明年一月一號上路我們有沒有相關的配套報告委員這個經費的部分公路局也會提供補助啦就是說有一些是靠行的他自己要負擔那這個部分我們會盡量去補助他讓他的負擔可以減少辦法咧辦法公路局是不是有提供相關的辦法"},{"start":4351.84,"end":4379.858,"text":"到目前為止還沒有看到 不能今年四月的時候再講一次但是我們現在看的比較直接的就是說到目前為止你們要怎麼做能夠讓明年一月上路之後真的符合 因為我想安全最重要駕駛如果安全的話大家都很期待但駕駛一定會講是說那這樣子的成本到最後車行也不理然後結果交通部一個命令下來是要駕駛自行吸收跟負擔而且不只是裝一次費用喔每個月還要管理費用 來"},{"start":4380.967,"end":4398.002,"text":"跟這個部分跟委員報告一下先行遊覽車已經有GPS的所以車輛的動態系統已經重回來那現在只是加一個駕駛人識別的部分那駕駛人識別的部分有幾種方式一種是這個插身分識別卡我們可不可以直接說明 剛剛部長已經講說你們不是已經研擬辦法了嗎 對對對對那辦法咧 這個"},{"start":4400.624,"end":4428.474,"text":"公共總局已經有一個補助這個規定在做這個補助所以因為之前都已經在做補助本來是這個今年7月1號要這個推那後面再調整這個時程到明年1月1號那裡面還包括就是說更大的比如說你除了裝身分識別這個卡之外那另外如果用手機QR code也可以結合這個GPS把家屬的訊息傳回來"},{"start":4429.794,"end":4457.053,"text":"這個都在可以處理的一個範圍重點是要掌握一萬四千多全國的遊覽車如果說真的有些時候禮拜禮拜天出遊旺季的時候他可能在各地那我們可以了解他的狀況那還有更重要的是駕駛員不要有這種超時工作然後疲勞駕駛的部分嘛這個都是利益良善但我現在講的還是一樣回歸到你的"},{"start":4458.393,"end":4486.618,"text":"裝設的機器如果變成是說駕駛要再來負擔那無形當中增加成本那會不會就是有上有政策下有對策你沒有辦法落實這可能我們美意就會打折跟我報告兩個重點第一個部分已經有補助的規定那第二個部分的話裝完之後在車輛驗車的時候都會去看這些相關設備有全額補助嗎補助應該是百分之四十九百分之四十九 五十一嘛我覺得還是要"},{"start":4487.378,"end":4500.69,"text":"部長再了解一下現在的裝機率以及本席提醒現在裝機率以及你只剩半年左右時間如果明年元旦要上路能夠落實還有我之前有提過這一樣的牽連"},{"start":4503.733,"end":4531.181,"text":"國道客運上面能夠有雙層巴士之前部長也承諾會研議那我知道市長也已經開過會其實我最主要強調的還是一樣讓駕駛員能夠有多增加收入以及客一台車裡面能夠多增加的一個載客量讓整個交通空污也好可以下降以及交通的這個衝擊也可以比較縮小那現在我知道3月已經開過會了那現在的推動情形咧"},{"start":4532.197,"end":4560.84,"text":"跟委員報告三月開完會之後車身規格已經完成草案的研擬那接下來就要做法規的預告所以各單位大家回覆是往正向的看待是用麥克風好不好是包括這個路權還有車輛規格大家都已經討論定案都有共識了我們希望也是一起落實如果可以的話在今年年底以前能夠真的讓這樣的一個政策能夠上路可以嗎可以好謝謝"},{"start":4561.937,"end":4573.121,"text":"謝謝我們請李昆哲委員謝謝 請一下陳部長還有陳文睿局長黃英貴市長 陳部長 陳局長 黃市長還有陳市長"},{"start":4592.23,"end":4613.377,"text":"部長好 交通部在今年的二月有提出道安三件那最主要是擴大行人穿越線以及車輛停止線的進去還有要改善路口的這個行人穿越道的相關的一個照明那還有推動汽車隔熱紙透光率的管理升級"},{"start":4616.078,"end":4642.299,"text":"剛剛聽相關的官員報告那我們看到除了擴大行人穿越線以及車輛停止線的進去有初步的規劃之外以及相關的時程那改善路口行人穿越道的這個照明好像是在規劃當中而已還有推動汽車隔熱紙的透光率它的管理升級的部分好像只是在對話的階段看起來這道安三件"},{"start":4643.12,"end":4668.937,"text":"好像只是在跨板而已只是在跨大餅而已還沒有真的看到建來 部長說明一下你們大安山間具體的時程是怎樣報告委員您剛剛說的行人穿越道的部分我們在6月底之前會完成修法並且有發布這個部分是有確定的時程那另外入口的這個照明的部分我們省道優先來做改善"},{"start":4669.557,"end":4694.794,"text":"我們希望在第三季之前完成100處的省道的路口的這個照明改善年底之前完成400處那目前我們已經完成13處所以照明的部分我們自己省道先做不過我們也跟地方政府有在開會在研討如果他們路口需要改善我們跟內政部都會一起來協助他們需要補助的話我們也會協助他們不過有些路口確實是地方政府他們要去協助的這個跟委員報告"},{"start":4696.633,"end":4722.654,"text":"那另外針對隔熱紙的透光率的部分我們在6月份就會有一個指引出來這個指引就是告訴大家說我前檔未來隔熱紙能夠貼百分之幾的透光率跟側檔的部分要貼多少的隔熱紙的這個透光率這個部分指引我們6月就會很確定會出來那明年也就是115年我們會來落實法制化法制化之後就會強制要求大家一定要這麼做"},{"start":4723.294,"end":4743.486,"text":"好 具體的時程必須要讓社會大眾能夠清楚知道大灣三線相關的規劃以及計劃的時程那我們針對一肇事路段的這一些道路改善的相關的作為那我初步的建議就是我們要逐年來盤點各縣市的肇事熱點"},{"start":4744.906,"end":4762.813,"text":"來進行優先的一個改善另外針對現有的這些道安的問題要進行風險因素相關的統計跟分析而且我們針對有些縣市做得比較好的我們要找出它有效的改善作為來納入改善的範本部長簡單說明一下"},{"start":4764.053,"end":4790.26,"text":"好 報告委員 我們目前的路口改善優先確實是以委員所指示的就是用熱點 就是依照式的路口 我們優先來改善那過去一年其實我們也完成了許多的路口的這個改善那未來還是朝這個方向 這個沒有問題 一定會照做那另外 比較有成果的縣市我們其實在道安的總動員的平台都有揭露出來然後我們也會去了解說 他到底為什麼會做得特別好"},{"start":4791.361,"end":4809.918,"text":"因為我們針對一照四路段我們必須要初步的一個檢視然後來督促地方政府來做改善如果他沒有改善的這些項目要列入改善的一個目標更重要我們要滾動檢討這些改善的項目以及他相關的成效"},{"start":4810.959,"end":4832.698,"text":"部長我們繼續來討論剛才也有相關的報告提到說我們以2024年跟2023年的死傷人數來做一個統計那總死亡的人數是減少了2.4這是部長剛才有報告但是死亡的人數雖然是略有下降但是"},{"start":4833.399,"end":4855.197,"text":"部分的死亡案件是增加的那包含青年的死亡13到17歲還有大型車事故導致死亡以及大型車導致行人死亡的部分還有追撞事故還有營業小客車這些導致死亡的案件它其實是增加的受傷的人數總受傷人數"},{"start":4856.838,"end":4875.251,"text":"雖然2024跟2023年來比較減少了2.8但是相關的高齡者以及高齡者機車歧視高齡者入口事故的受傷還有少年自行車的受傷人數都是增加的這個部分我們來看其實有個擔憂就是說長期的趨勢來看"},{"start":4880.775,"end":4905.994,"text":"兒童跟少年還有自行車高齡者的入口路段其次事故的受傷人數是增加而且大型車造成死亡事故造成死亡也是增加的就是說我們來看交通安全好像在這三面是一個很嚴重的趨勢就是說兒童還有高齡者的入口的事故"},{"start":4906.955,"end":4921.998,"text":"還有電動自行車尤其是青少年的電動自行車所造成的事故另外就是部分的大型車還有營業的車輛他駕駛習慣不良所導致的一個事故"},{"start":4923.846,"end":4949.495,"text":"來 部長這個部分讓你簡單說明一下我們針對這個趨勢有沒有初步的作為跟政策包委員我們針對預兆式或者是說高風險的族群我們其實部裡面也都有在做研究看要怎麼樣去做一些改善包含高齡者我們剛剛在簡報裡面有提到除了陸老師的這個道安的教育之外就是包含他的那個棒球帽反光的棒球帽等等的提供我們會盡量來協助"},{"start":4951.135,"end":4967.923,"text":"那青少年的部分確實我們在這幾年有觀察到電動自行車的事故有特別多那這個部分我們未來也會研議看要怎麼樣去做一個宣導或者是做一個管制那大型車的部分其實我們針對高違規的這個駕駛人我們有個專案的調訓也就是說把它調回來再重新訓練那這個過程我們從112年一直到現在已經累計有調訓了1220名的駕駛人"},{"start":4979.289,"end":4989.398,"text":"那我們調訊完之後我們發現比較不會再違規的比例有百分之八十幾也就是說這樣子的調訊確實是有效果那未來我們還會再加強就是說針對這個大型的車輛"},{"start":4992.253,"end":5020.117,"text":"如果未禮讓行人造成死亡的話我們除了調訓駕駛人之外公司的管理人或者負責人也必須要調訓部長我們有幾個數據其實是很嚴肅也讓我們非常擔憂我們來看啊入口的事故啊不管是闖紅燈或是未使用方向燈或者是沒有停讓這樣的案件其實也是持續的增加那警政署的報告啊入口事故的主要肇事人啊"},{"start":5022.117,"end":5046.284,"text":"98%都是駕駛人那主要原因就是闖紅燈還有衛衣規定使用方向燈它的件數都非常的多那這個部分有沒有具體的改善的一個方案報告委員這個部分當然也要拜託警政署在執法面盡量讓我們的駕駛人要有所警惕那當然宣導面的部分交通部會來努力這個相關都要"},{"start":5047.148,"end":5067.326,"text":"更具體的政策對話出來不是只有希望警政署能夠加強執法而已我們針對相關的這些路口的相關以及依照式路段路口相關的這些改善的具體措施耗制等等都必須更明確的讓駕駛人能夠遵守另外"},{"start":5068.027,"end":5085.396,"text":"我們大型車的事故也是非常的多那當然是部分的駕駛他的駕駛習慣不良不好導致死傷者的事故也是持續的增加不管是大型車事故導致死亡或大型車導致行人死亡"},{"start":5085.956,"end":5100.1,"text":"那2024年警政署為統計大型車的事故高達22萬1482件造成的傷亡不管是大車大貨車連結車造成的傷亡都是增加的這是一個讓我們很擔憂的這樣一個趨勢"},{"start":5103.721,"end":5123.566,"text":"那針對駕駛這種行為啊他的這種不良違規人進行駕駛行為的改善訓練是一個很重要的啦那當然我們要強化改善駕駛習慣這個宣導這個宣導是非常重要另外在教育方面我們有大安講習的這些班別"},{"start":5124.286,"end":5142.652,"text":"那目前大概有六個班別那我們針對危險駕駛的行為這種違規是不是要開設危險駕駛行為的相關的講習課程或是在現有的班別中也把這種危險駕駛列入相關的課程來說明一下"},{"start":5144.548,"end":5170.143,"text":"報告委員我是不是可以請好來局長公務員報告講習的這個部分有需要的話其實講習專班沒有問題那一般來說其實對於這種大型車輛的這個高風險我們都會去看他的違規比如說超速啦闖紅燈這些我們都特別調訓所以那個不是在講習那個在一般的這個業者的調訓包括駕駛人跟這個公司老闆其實這個部分我們都會來這個加強"},{"start":5171.755,"end":5186.774,"text":"你有加強但是他還是明顯的違規這個部分我們必須要加強相關的教育跟宣導另外最後一分鐘啊這個很好用最後一分鐘交通改善其實看到各縣市落差非常的大"},{"start":5187.395,"end":5214.6,"text":"那交通部應該要加強督促那有些啊這些改善成效不彰的縣市要怎麼去督促還有交通部有沒有更具體的方式去協助這些地方政府找出相關的原因協助地方政府來做改善有些縣市有改善的成績有出來但是有些縣市我也不點名那其實這些交通部如何去督促這些地方縣市政府"},{"start":5215.948,"end":5240.034,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們除了會跟他們開會之外我們在那個道安的那個匯報裡面也會請他們來說明跟報告他們未來要改善的這個計畫是什麼那我們當然技術面協助那如果入口改善需要經費我們也會協助那也會給他們一些壓力有些縣市做得不錯他改善的項目以及成效也可以列入這些改善的範本"},{"start":5240.994,"end":5248.878,"text":"讓各個縣市來可以做交流 可以做對話 如何提升相關的交通安全是 我會請他們來分享好 以上謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝我們請張祺凱委員"},{"start":5295.729,"end":5302.592,"text":"行政院怎麼可以說話不算話出爾反爾欺負欺騙我們嘉義人"},{"start":5305.649,"end":5327.02,"text":"行政院長我看你打醒的時候你也站在旁邊啊你們兩個很清楚的表達嘉義爭取多年這個輕軌工程會三百七十幾億中央是要承擔的我們嘉義市政府跟嘉義都已經在慶祝了你怎麼可以再怎麼可以把話都說回去呢你看不起我們嘉義人嗎"},{"start":5328.424,"end":5347.949,"text":"報告委員絕對不會看不起嘉義人不是只有行政院長卓榮泰明確對大家宣布耶我看你就要站在旁邊嘛對不對他表示該做啊我們爭取這麼久那你也明確宣布啦報告委員我昨天也很明確的說明了當時我們我先給你看來來當天的質詢狀況是什麼你看你站在旁邊喔時間請暫停一下沒有動的"},{"start":5364.139,"end":5387.759,"text":"還有機場線那些其實都是中央複製來興建的把嘉義縣市擺除在外有點不公平是不是可以請你們再努力做一個討論合法然後研議呢這封城款是370億如果中央可以負擔的話這封城款本身的370億而已地方只負責用地會用的0.66億跟嘉義縣的0.94億"},{"start":5391.659,"end":5392.039,"text":"好 保定"},{"start":5406.553,"end":5425.795,"text":"院長清清楚楚講你是交通部長你要站在旁邊啊這句話不是只有嘉義市人看到的全國都看到的啊怎麼可以再撬回去呢可以反悔呢這是公開的打自己的這個嘴巴第二個沒有更重要更重要院長說真正的癥結卡在哪裡他說用地啊"},{"start":5427.369,"end":5455.05,"text":"嘉義縣跟嘉義市政府都講了我們願意承擔這個費用吧一個0.66億一個0.9億我們都承擔啊那問題就解決啊更重要的來我們來看你是台中人嘛台中嘛台中的那個捷運綠線什麼樣出現的報告委員地方出比較多中央出比較少中央你看看喔我統計給你看來所有高鐵的連外的道路"},{"start":5456.892,"end":5471.88,"text":"不管是鐵路 後來這個捷運都是中央出的錢啊你怎麼可以漏掉 漏掉 漏掉嘉義嘉義縣市咧 嘉義縣市敢不敢說話報告委員台鐵當然是中央但如果是輕軌跟捷運系統都是中央支持地方來興辦"},{"start":5473.444,"end":5499.337,"text":"那個基捷是不是基捷除外基捷是為了機場基捷除外其他的你像台中基捷為什麼要除外因為它是重大工程對不對你剛剛所提到的那是因為國家門戶國家門戶啊嘉義縣市這不重要嗎嘉義縣市很重要啊很重要那你就告訴我為什麼要獨落我們委員您剛剛所提到的台中綠縣地方出的錢也比中央更多啊"},{"start":5500.501,"end":5519.975,"text":"是吧然後台北的捷運台北的捷運串接到台北火車站也是跟高鐵站串接的地方捷運系統也是地方出比較多啊全國都是一支的啊單純是地方的像嘉義市也有規劃以後還有幾條輕軌嘛對不對那個地方我們自己來付啊他說橫跨嘉義縣市而且是一個國家重要的"},{"start":5520.635,"end":5529.339,"text":"那就是應該比照這個集結來做嘛我再給你看一個部長我當然也跨縣市等一下我說比照集結來做第二個我給你看一個公文94年的公文我先問你現在嘉義輕軌還沒做現在有BRT對不對"},{"start":5542.578,"end":5564.151,"text":"當初BRT的錢是誰出的 誰去建的高通伯瑪 跟管境外企業負責的高通伯瑪 對不對BRT是當初是中央做啊 交通部做啊現在輕軌當然也是交通部做啊來 看一下公文當時已經做了BRT啊對啊BRT在這 來來來 保證看公文看公文 看公文 來來來看公文"},{"start":5566.372,"end":5576.506,"text":"當初先做BRT是交通部做的對不對行政院94年來合併喔做了一個很重要的宣示喔來你看 你看文詩這個顏柳規劃輕軌的這個事情考量當初的財政狀況跟運需的 運量的需求"},{"start":5584.318,"end":5597.954,"text":"當初人比較少嘛現在印量已經增加了嘛太保站那邊下來的人現在跟比南港上的人還多所以他的流量是過的嘛對不對有需求的嘛後面這句話請貴部貴部什麼樣交通部對不對"},{"start":5600.267,"end":5616.172,"text":"硬量的成長的情形要適時提出輕軌計畫就是要叫你們做嘛第一個你們現在提了沒有報告委員第二個有沒有叫你 你有沒有說我可以說嗎好 報告委員您大概不了解對行政院來說各縣市的捷運系統都是由交通部提出的"},{"start":5616.972,"end":5644.809,"text":"各縣市送到交通部交通部在提出但交通部提出不代表交通部全部出錢這一點非常清楚各縣市的輕軌或捷運都是一致性的所以不要只有看到這句話就擴大解釋中我看嘉義縣市也開了好幾次會啦包括你們協助專家我們都邀請來了現在兩個點嘛第一個這個公文上面清清楚楚要你要繼續像BRT那樣做嘛對不對不要擴大解釋沒有啦沒有你剛剛講的都是後話啦本來有在討論說要不要對不對"},{"start":5646.05,"end":5673.65,"text":"現在今天就是兩個點嘛第一個我公文都是給你看的我也給你一次公文啊你一記公文你要做啊對行政院來說當初PRT是交通部做的當初的行政院也叫你要做嘛他沒有叫我們要做啊對啊這是第一點第二點我剛剛講你為什麼不能夠比照機場捷運你是看完自己他不看不清楚機場捷運是因為桃園機場是國門保證現在更重要的為什麼行政院長那如果您這樣說的話我是不是也看不起我們自己台中人"},{"start":5674.38,"end":5695.361,"text":"你人家很粗啊 董事長你人家很粗啊是不是啊已經蓋完啦你把蘇國大站起來他們彰化 現在站起來 秀化出來彰化的立委可以幫他們爭取啊為什麼 全國都是一致性的來啦 國立現在統領的來啦 全國都是一致性的部長現在最重要的啦是行政院長清清楚楚在國會跟大家講三八七十日你要出馬 對不對"},{"start":5696.67,"end":5720.9,"text":"報告委員我已經解釋過那是幕僚所提供的資料讓院長誤解了這一點我非常抱歉我昨天道歉過一次我今天再道歉一次嘉義人不要你誤解嘉義人要你解決問題嘛那你行政院長宣布當初你當初有問題那一天你就應該數數他這樣講對不對高雄的左營站他所串接的捷運也是中央補助地方出比較多的錢"},{"start":5721.6,"end":5742.354,"text":"所以你都去挑一部分你為什麼不挑像季節這樣好了明明就可以幫嘉義嘉義縣市一個發展的而又走不動各縣市的捷運只要串接高鐵都是中央出錢並不是這樣這是錯誤的說法來你再回到剛剛那一頁現在最新的保定現在最新的最重要的嘛行政院長公開講了嘛你在旁邊嘛我就解釋過這是口誤我就解釋過這是口誤"},{"start":5746.277,"end":5764.708,"text":"口誤這什麼是口誤呢我們剛剛講依法依公文都可以做的事情為什麼要口誤嘉義縣市爭取這條遷軌已經爭取那麼久了怎麼會是口誤呢而且你只要照那一天的你去承擔你那天講說爭取是用地費那用地費我們就我們來付啊一切照法歸來"},{"start":5767.079,"end":5785.16,"text":"依法辦理依法行政我今天這裡看的就是法規啊對不對哪一個法規剛剛講的是公文講的是其他的公文我也跟您解釋過你還是沒有理解啊講法規我們再來談一個比較重要的交通部的2020版的這個運輸政策白皮書就先是說完整城市的這個網際的這個鐵路的運輸網啊"},{"start":5787.714,"end":5815.366,"text":"要把高鐵跟台鐵做一個串聯是國家的重要政策之一啊你們要去落實這個事情啊大眾捷運法第13條也明確說大眾捷運系統應該是由中央主管機關來辦理啊所以你本來要依法你就可以這樣做啊現在事情怎麼樣你把我們嘉義漏掉嘛是不是這樣我知道法令上你們一直在鑽漏洞在解釋一個不見得你明明是可以照顧嘉義縣市全國性"},{"start":5816.631,"end":5825.615,"text":"統一的原則跟規則我不可能為了嘉義市跟別的地方不一樣全國性統一的規則跟原則就是交通部必須那個是為了桃園機場如果每一個縣市都這麼說交通部該怎麼做"},{"start":5838.274,"end":5865.121,"text":"那你讓他如果你認為整個地區的發展都需要你就應該去做啊為什麼不能做呢那您可以修法啊法律已經有啦現在是你自己的用裁量方式啊我覺得你不要你不要擴大去解釋你在依法可以的狀況之下你要照顧嘉義縣市結果你不照顧嘛國家的重要政策也是嘉義市跟嘉義縣的人家生氣什麼你可以做的還有你行政院長公開講的你現在要吃我還我嗎全國一致性原則我們就欺負我們嘛"},{"start":5865.741,"end":5887.306,"text":"全國一致性原則我還是要強調全國一致性原則我只要時間不要影響到後面啦我告訴大家嘉義人會爭取到底我們不會被欺負也不會被欺騙啦從來沒有欺負過嘉義人這個都是你可以做的事情那嘉義市民已經在慶祝了落實行政院長講的話我今天更指出來你保證那天站在旁邊"},{"start":5889.656,"end":5902.467,"text":"你們的對線你們的諾言要對線不要背信不要欺負不要欺騙嘉義人絕對不會欺負跟欺騙嘉義人 謝謝委員好 謝謝張祺凱委員質詢接下來邀請黃建豪委員質詢"},{"start":5920.663,"end":5942.796,"text":"好謝謝主席主席我們請交通部陳部長請陳部長國賢好部長好這個我想各縣市都很需要交通部的資源是是是簡易建設好不好我們先進到今天的主題今天談論是所謂的這個鞋子安全的部分我想部長我也非常的關注交通部的這個臉書是謝謝國賢"},{"start":5945.137,"end":5974.554,"text":"部長提過這個所謂道岸三支箭有提到說要來改善這個路口的行人穿越道的照明那在先前的這個質詢裡面我也跟部長討論過是不是能夠把這個行人穿越道的照明把它列成一個通案不要只是用示範因為過去台中市在2022年2023年的這個照明的這個示範的成效也都蠻好而且一般民眾的評價也都很高我想部長也知道那我要問的是說部長在這個李教牧業管單位裡面來講你們只有"},{"start":5975.629,"end":5993.508,"text":"以省道路口為主嘛那很多的市區道路我想因為市區道路當然部長好像也會說這是地方政府的這個責任但是我想這個行人安全的道安的部分應該是全國一切的政策所以我要提這個建議說這部分有沒有可能也把這個市區道路口納入整個的改善計畫裡面甚至是說"},{"start":5994.569,"end":6015.048,"text":"編列相關的預算不管是由交通部也好或是隔壁的我們這個內政部的國土署也好因為像很多道路除了交通部管之外在這個都市計畫裡面的道路很多是國土署來管但是因為大家想到交通安全當然會覺得主管機關就是交通部嘛那我們期待說是不是有機會去編列相關就像人行道一樣人行道現在各地方都在做"},{"start":6015.669,"end":6044.202,"text":"那這大概很多錢這個都外屬於交通部都內屬於國土署這個是這樣分的沒錯就是說我希望說這有一個整體的規劃不要說但錢由誰來支出這是你們行政院各部會去分工這個我沒有意見但是我意見是說既然要把這個所謂的行人安全做好的話是不是能夠有一個很明確的專案把所有的至少大型路口或幾公尺以上路口來把它列入所謂的這個行人安全的到案計畫裡面部長"},{"start":6045.917,"end":6067.551,"text":"報告委員您的這個建議很好我們目前所做的當然我們自己轄管的是省道的路口我們會優先來做那我們也透過跟縣市政府的聯繫的匯報裡面我們其實也都拜託縣市政府要去做那剛剛委員有再提醒一點在經費上能不能夠協助其實我們跟國土署在這個行人永續安全提升計畫裡面其實他們還是可以提出申請"},{"start":6068.551,"end":6097.637,"text":"這個部分我們都可以來協助那至於要不要在另外成立一個專案我們來跟國土署這邊來商量或許我們可以做一個專案來鼓勵地方政府針對專門針對這個路口照明的部分我們來做一個計畫我們來延商好 部長謝謝因為之前這個行人道案的部分當然是針對人行道那我現在講的是穿越馬路的部分因為確實有很多地方不管是路燈也好還是晚上有的人沒開車燈也好各種有奇奇怪怪的狀況發生我們期待說所有的至少在"},{"start":6098.317,"end":6121.168,"text":"一定比例的入口的部分至少在市區也好 省道也好它的照明能夠明確一點 至少讓駕駛人能夠看到那當然我有看到說你這個隔熱紙的透光率的管理等等的 這都是一定的啦我是覺得這是整套的要好好去執行好不好部長好 沒有問題接下來我想這也是最近這些新聞可以看到說一些車禍我想是對於這個行人的死傷也造成蠻大的影響就是說這個"},{"start":6124.437,"end":6140.204,"text":"人到車主我跟部長反映一下有的地方是拆了有地方沒有拆那有的地方是自己社區自己裝但是會被檢舉說這個是影響行程通行所以被迫要一定要把它拆掉那有的身障者後來投訴說"},{"start":6141.365,"end":6167.15,"text":"依法他們那個寬度要1.5公尺但是這個車主很多地方在做車主的時候他是可能他的寬度長度大概就是90公分或幾公分而已所以讓很多的可能身心障礙者他沒辦法通行那當然我知道很多人裝這個車主的目的就希望大家不要違規停車嘛這是這個台灣很多這個文化的問題那所以這個到底車主的部分是有沒有一個相關的法令能夠去執行這樣一致的去做"},{"start":6168.05,"end":6182.682,"text":"因為你這個東西保護行人重點還是要保護行人我們在這個人行道上面我們希望能夠保護行人不要讓車子不管是爆衝也好還是不小心也好衝到上面撞到行人這部分的話不知道在整個"},{"start":6183.382,"end":6198.296,"text":"整體的規劃裡面,你們怎麼去規劃這件事情?報告委員,我所知道的是國土署這邊已經有做相關的規劃,也有參考日本他們的模式,那國土署如果可以提供一些資料的話,是不是可以麻煩國土署?"},{"start":6200.127,"end":6215.972,"text":"這個部分國土署他們因為比較市區道路比較會用得到所以國土署這邊目前已經有在做討論了我們所知道的是這個樣子我們看一下下一頁其實確實啦各國有我們的自己的路源設計規範有美國的設計規範也有日本的這個交通安全的對策範例可以請國土署回應 謝謝"},{"start":6219.374,"end":6232.989,"text":"主席委員那針對這個車主的部分其實就剛剛委員講的其實社會有不同的需求那從避免車子上人就來看是應該要做那目前我們有針對其他國家針對車主的強度"},{"start":6235.692,"end":6252.612,"text":"就是說車主設置的強度我們現在在訂一個跟地方政府會檢討出一個設置的規定那第二個問題是剛剛委員所提的說到底哪裡要設那這件事情會比較牽涉到基本上我們是比較贊成在路口轉角都把它設起來因為避免車子上"},{"start":6253.473,"end":6269.27,"text":"但這一塊是在台灣的民警上面有一些路口的店家或者通行的需要要克服那這個可能還是要回到個案去檢討會比較適合一點那在路口的左右兩側我們會優先推動去設置來保障行人跟車子的安全這樣"},{"start":6270.54,"end":6287.273,"text":"因為現在現在已經有所謂的路源設計範例我們現階段就有這東西那美國也有日本也有各國都有這相關的東西我是說我們現在參考的車主的部分那我先確定一下所以車主原則上我們是往要裝的方向做只是要裝什麼樣的材質什麼樣的規範還沒討論出來是這樣嗎"},{"start":6289.831,"end":6318.324,"text":"應該是說車主本來我們現在在推旋轉線退縮那入口本來就會空出來那空出來的部分本來就應該用車主跟能幹去做那避免車子上去是車主本身強度的問題那就是工程設計那要不要設我們是朝向要設的方向在推動那這部分但是因為入口店家各方面比較多我們有一些部分需要地方政府跟民眾來溝通跟客服這樣那這個大概什麼時候你們會有比較具體的方案要多久"},{"start":6319.29,"end":6332.727,"text":"車主本身設置的部分我們在近期就會有一個比較明確的規定把國外對於車主強度設計的東西引用進來那設置的地點這個本來就可以做是持續在各個工程裡面去做推動"},{"start":6335.202,"end":6363.806,"text":"但是他們沒有辦法說一致性啦就是說每一個路口都去做那這件事情在目前來看是會有一點點沒關係我的意思說當然各地方啦知道說執行就是地方政府執行嘛那我說你現在會有一個比較明確的規範出來是什麼時候會有規範出來那各地方政府不管預算也好或是去執行也好我們現在就是說變成現在各地方政府各自各自各各自有的是水泥有的是塑膠有的是別的有的是鐵條那今天"},{"start":6365.026,"end":6390.971,"text":"不管內政部也好還是說交通部也好是會有一個明確的規範說以後用什麼樣的材質在什麼地方多大如果要裝會有這樣的規範出來跟委員報告不會有材質的規定會有強度的規定好什麼時候會有我們在最近這一個月會請地方政府來做討論跟檢討那基本上會先引用國外的規定好謝謝主席謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":6394.069,"end":6401.975,"text":"謝謝黃建豪委員質詢接下來邀請徐富奎委員質詢謝謝主席 我們有請陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":6427.575,"end":6434.039,"text":"我剛剛看了一下我們剛剛有國民黨跟民眾黨的委員提到我們這個嘉義市輕軌的這個事情"},{"start":6437.659,"end":6463.253,"text":"部長應該在記者會也講得很清楚我想說這是一個幕僚作業的一個疏失但是我想國民黨跟民眾的委員應該不會這麼簡單幫你做是不是請部長再說明一下到底這件事情到底是什麼一個情況好不好報告委員其實不管是針對輕軌或者是捷運系統目前像委員就很清楚在屏東也有在爭取捷運系統"},{"start":6464.193,"end":6482.984,"text":"那對交通部來說對中央政府來說我們都是一致性的原則也就是說這是地方主導那中央來補助包含可行性研究這一次的這個嘉義輕軌的這個案子的可行性研究也是嘉義市政府來做也是由嘉義市政府來做所以其實它的主導是由嘉義市政府來主導"},{"start":6483.644,"end":6499.757,"text":"那我們中央的角色除了協助之外還有補助這個部分其實全國性都是一致的那所以剛剛不管是哪位委員所提到的我都講一樣的話你像這個高雄的捷運要接到"},{"start":6501.038,"end":6517.331,"text":"這個高鐵站要接到高鐵站左營高鐵站的那個捷運也是地方出的錢比中央還要多像我自己出生的都市台中市也是一樣我們的捷運綠線要串接到高鐵站一樣是地方出的比較多中央來補助一定的比例"},{"start":6517.791,"end":6540.093,"text":"那所以其實我們全國性都是一致的啦那一天的狀況其實是幕僚準備的那個資料他那個順序的擺法其實讓院長有一些小誤解那這個部分我們非常的抱歉我昨天在面對記者的時候我有先道歉過那我今天也在道歉這個沒有問題這個非常抱歉但我還是必須要謹守一件事就是全國一致性的原則"},{"start":6540.994,"end":6561.973,"text":"部長這個要講清楚啦不然這個責任很重大那我們也看到這個國民黨跟民眾黨的委員一手砍預算所以我相信你現在對整個全國的交通的建設你也偷偷聽啦現在我們就要怎麼處理啦所以該怎麼樣一個公平性的處理真的要一個標準就好了我們大家都好好做事啦是沒有錯"},{"start":6563.354,"end":6589.953,"text":"部長我想最近這個台幣升值帶動這個出國的潮流那會不會對國旅造成一個很嚴重的一個衝擊部長有沒有什麼意義報告委員這個匯率確實會影響到我們的這個觀光以去年來說去年日幣突然跌了非常的多那我們台灣的民眾就會覺得去日本玩好便宜那寧願出國所以去年確實有大量的民眾跑到日本去玩"},{"start":6590.493,"end":6608.011,"text":"那今年日幣稍微比較升值了那台灣的民眾往日本我們看那個數據看起來就會降低一些啦那最近這一兩三天很快速的台幣有一個升值的這個狀況出現那會有兩個層面的影響一個是我們的國人出國會變便宜"},{"start":6608.511,"end":6627.807,"text":"消費會覺得更便宜那另外一個層面是其他國家來到台灣旅遊會覺得比較貴例如說美金現在兌換台幣可能對美金比較不利美國的旅客來到台灣他就會受到一些影響那這個部分當然短期之間看不出那個影響可是長時間我們會有擔心所以我會請這個觀光署"},{"start":6629.929,"end":6649.05,"text":"密切的關注我們目前進出國的這個數據包含來的這些國家的一些數據如果有需要提供一些補助或者是一些協助的話觀光署會很快速的來擬定方案來協助我們的旅行的業者部長這我還是建議我們還是要把這個拉高到我們行政院這個"},{"start":6650.051,"end":6668.82,"text":"觀光產業振興的資訊會議裡面要做一個很詳細的討論尤其在我們相關跨部會的整合上面怎麼樣給予我們國旅業者更多優惠跟補助的方案不能失衡太嚴重這樣真的很危險沒有錯 我們還是希望來台灣玩的旅客可以多一些"},{"start":6669.995,"end":6678.867,"text":"部長我想我們前陣子我們交通委員會也有到大鵬灣去考察嗎那我相信部長也很喜歡我們整個大鵬灣的一個環境那現在大鵬灣面臨幾個問題我還是要請部長這邊來幫忙一下部長因為過去這個我們大鵬灣國家風險區設立的時候"},{"start":6687.098,"end":6708.765,"text":"制定一個都市計畫的理想性太高了所以造成我們周邊土地的使用強度被拉低造成業者跟民眾投入的意願降低很多目前我們油氣區用地的建壁率只有15%容積率45%要開發的時候還必須要退縮道路5公尺"},{"start":6710.086,"end":6729.044,"text":"讓這個開發案困難重重那當然我們目前由一由二由三已經在進行這個BOT招商的一個作業目前進度順利嗎目前官方署給我的回報目前是順利啦所以我們希望說由一由二由三的這個BOT案可以在今年底完成簽約完成簽約之後就可以啟動"},{"start":6730.425,"end":6757.716,"text":"那另外除了郵一郵二郵三之外我想我們周邊包含這個郵四到郵八這部分我們也希望我們民間能夠同步來啟動啦因為不能只有我們這個這三塊起來 其他旁邊又破爛也不對啊所以我們應該是整理開發那但是現在面臨的問題是我們郵七郵八過去有提到我們在這個內政部有提到要辦一個勢力重劃但是我們認為這樣比較不可行"},{"start":6758.516,"end":6779.628,"text":"影響的層面太大而且時間拉長太長而且涉及到超過一千個地主所以我們是建議說如果說由觀光署來主導政府來開闢有七有八的周邊石流條的道路那這樣子是不是可以讓地主能夠後續再做一個整合我想這個方向部長認同嗎"},{"start":6780.949,"end":6801.706,"text":"報告委員,這個部分您有提到過,我邀請觀光署這邊我們再來研議看有沒有這樣的可能性,有沒有這樣的可能性如果可以的話,法令上、法規上可行的話,我們就朝這個方向來推動當然因為我們考慮到我們盆管處的人力比較不足,那如果可行的話,我想我們來協調縣政府也願意來代辦這樣的一個工作"},{"start":6802.106,"end":6819.574,"text":"那大家趕快盡快把這個地方來開發那另外我想不然我們到大鵬灣去的時候都說一時吃喝玩樂都沒問題啦但晚上比較沒有地方可以去那我在交通委員會質詢的時候會特別提到說我們這個"},{"start":6820.354,"end":6844.751,"text":"大鵬灣的這個夜間觀光經濟的部分必須要加快來速度那尤其像我們鵬灣塊大橋這個觀環境的部分那甚至我想我們看到奧地利有一個布雷根茲音樂節有一個水上劇場那我想我們大鵬灣的灣浴是很適合來做這樣一個水上的一個電影劇的一個演出我想可以吸引很多國內外的遊客那部長"},{"start":6845.792,"end":6872.269,"text":"願不願意來促成這樣的一個活動然後把我們東港營網的一個主題可以納入做一個我們的一個表演的一個主題好 包委員我覺得這都是很好的想法跟發想啦那我們當然BOT的案子我們要趕快往前推進那另外就是海上的晚上的一些活動我們其實之前在屏東我們有討論過幾次那當然您所提的這些建議都非常好的建議我們請觀光署這邊來研議看要怎麼協助地方政府來推動"},{"start":6872.469,"end":6886.536,"text":"副長那就請光屬一個月之內給我們一個規劃的報告好不好好我們希望能夠看能不能在暑假的時候就可以來實現這樣一個地木居的表演好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝徐富奎委員發言接下來邀請蔡其昌委員質詢那在這邊先公告一下就是在林俊憲委員質詢後休息10分鐘謝謝"},{"start":6907.084,"end":6910.545,"text":"謝謝主席 請陳部長請陳部長部長早安部長這個前瞻計畫裡面我看了一下應該現在包括現在進行到第五期"},{"start":6930.845,"end":6954.49,"text":"那其中啊這個前瞻計畫當中有編列補助地方政府來興建停車場那這個部分我看大概編了41億嗎是嗎前瞻裡面總共編補助地方政府大概編了多少錢"},{"start":6957.624,"end":6985.152,"text":"260億第五期啦每一期嘛加起來應該是第五期四十幾億對 第五期四十幾億全部加起來兩百多億那這個到目前為止這兩百多億基本上從第一期執行到第五期大概我們都已經核定要給哪一個地方政府去做哪些停車場那已經現在已經全部都核定了那"},{"start":6986.428,"end":7001.566,"text":"部長有沒有考慮就是以現在交通部掌握各地方停車場的空間需求在這五期通通做完之後各地方政府的需求狀況還是存在還是說已經幾乎很少了"},{"start":7003.051,"end":7020.104,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們也認為地方的這個停車的需求其實還蠻多啦所以我們目前還有擬定一個新的計畫要向行政院來爭取預算我們希望可以再匡列一些預算讓我們可以協助地方政府來做這個停車場所以部長你感覺我也是這樣覺得啦我認為這個前瞻計畫"},{"start":7023.486,"end":7041.934,"text":"這個五期當中編兩百多億來協助地方政府蓋停車場我認為這件事情是很重要因為民眾對於停車的需求這個當然跟過去都是計畫整體的發展都有關係啦但畢竟台灣現在就是這個樣子那大家對於停車的需求特別是"},{"start":7042.901,"end":7071.922,"text":"特定地區啦他其實真的有停車的這個需求特別是我們要開始執行對行人友善的這個計畫的時候很多時候他的爭執會出現在於過去停車方便現在可能我們要友善行人所以就導致他不能像過去這麼方便去停車但如果政府又沒有配套讓他有停車的地方那這時候我們友善行人的"},{"start":7073.174,"end":7087.954,"text":"社會對於行人友善的這個政策的美意恐怕又會打折又會挑戰又會質疑因為跟他的這個過去的停車方便習慣甚至有沒有空間可以讓他停車這兩者又會牽扯在一起"},{"start":7088.775,"end":7103.067,"text":"所以持續的去執行這件事情很重要那部長你有沒有預計在下一個階段就是這個前瞻五期做完之後我們還是一樣打算有多少預算規模要來持續對停車場興建做協助"},{"start":7106.197,"end":7132.562,"text":"報告委員我目前是在跟行政院爭取60億的預算希望能夠再多匡列60億的預算來讓我們協助地方的停車需求已經在審查了所以換言之可能是明年的預算應該看起來是這樣我希望這個能夠持續來推動因為前幾天我們跟教育部在清水做會刊"},{"start":7133.595,"end":7161.867,"text":"那我們也發現現在很多的建築物因為要取得土地並不是太容易所以如果大型的建築物大型的公共工程要興建的時候同時考量停車場譬如說過去我們大甲利用國中禮堂興建那禮堂就在操場的旁邊那禮堂的興建同時讓操場的地下室跟"},{"start":7163.845,"end":7187.615,"text":"禮堂的地下室 活動中心的地下室一起同時興建停車場這個其實對於比較難停車的人口較集中的地方其實這是一個很好的方案啦 不然你要再去找一塊停車場用地我看是不容易啦那所以清水有一個大的案子比如說這個叫做要蓋那個室內的自行車館"},{"start":7189.035,"end":7217.609,"text":"那我看台中市政府他也在地下是規劃了停車場那我很支持啦我認為附近啦這個住宅林立那停車空間也不是太夠那如果能夠利用興建這個很大型因為這大型停車館大型的自行車館大概他是一個標準的國際比賽的場地那我相信這個預算大概要有10億的規模啦這個館所以他的地下空間一定很大"},{"start":7218.209,"end":7242.386,"text":"所以他們提出說是不是要連停車場一起來做那我知道前瞻已經結束了所以我們希望說如果未來還有這個60億的預算我們會來積極協助台中市政府來爭取在清水地區興建這個共構型的這種地下停車場域部長到時候我在因為要先有預算我現在跟你講這個也沒用"},{"start":7243.126,"end":7263.52,"text":"到時候預算編了又給這個在黨刪掉我想那也沒用啦所以等預算通過之後我想我們會積極來協助地方政府來將這個停車的問題解決那同時停車的配套解決的好我們對於行人友善這個政策我覺得我們的執行的效率跟速度才會快"},{"start":7264.32,"end":7284.246,"text":"這第一個我想跟部長特別來要求也期待能夠這個預算能夠來通過如果我們爭取到預算的時候呢這個部分我們會優先來考慮好謝謝部長那第二個部分我想這個我在去年有提了一個臨時提案也就是台中這個國道4號下來可不可以直接高速"},{"start":7285.106,"end":7300.462,"text":"用這個快速公路的方式連結現在的西濱也就是台61線那這個是路網的概念就是說台中市的最北邊台中市的最北邊如果國道4號跟"},{"start":7301.483,"end":7329.429,"text":"台61線連結台61線西濱公路就不會成為一條寂寞公路因為西濱在台中一路就是走自己的事情它跟大家都沒有用路網連結的概念所以雖然你走平面道路還是可以到但是我們的概念裡面一個城市快速道路的連結對於交通的疏解城市的發展其實它很重要所以西濱在台中就是一條寂寞公路它跟大家都沒有快速連結"},{"start":7330.609,"end":7356.767,"text":"所以本席過去一直希望北邊可以跟國道4號來連結南邊可以跟生活圈的道路就像部長過去在烏日當議員是一樣就是那個沿著烏溪可以生活圈的道路連結但生活圈的道路不是交通部業務所以我就姑且不提南邊的連結所以如果這個可以做一個連結就把大台中地區的最外環"},{"start":7358.118,"end":7381.36,"text":"最外環可以把它串接起來那這個最外環串接呢因為其中還涉及到台中港也跟部裡面關係有也跟你業務有關那部長你也清楚知道台中港目前正是蓬勃發展的階段我們不斷的在外移就是不斷的在興建新的碼頭在擴大對在擴大台中港的這個範圍所以呢"},{"start":7382.381,"end":7405.717,"text":"表示部裡面預期這個港未來會持續的這個進展發展所以我們事先未雨綢繆因為這個道路就算我臨時提案在交通委員會通過那運營所也提出跟本席回覆嘛說希望對對對說希望請這個高速公路局先啟動掀起評估所以換言之這個一路啊"},{"start":7406.437,"end":7431.773,"text":"本席去年一路到先期評估到後面要做到好這個其實還有一段很長的時間所以我的意思是說該做的先做因為你預期台中港會發展預期台中這個城市會越來越進步越來越發展所以這種路網的事先的預估架構跟評估其實相對是重要的所以部長你覺不覺得應該請高速公路局先來啟動這個先期評估讓國道4號跟"},{"start":7435.795,"end":7461.163,"text":"61線在北邊可以先做連結好 報告委員目前運援署他已經有做過初步的規劃跟研議那研議完之後認為是有這個需要性的所以我也要請高工局來同意這件事情就是先期的評估我們先來啟動那應該高工局也可以做得到先期的評估我們先來啟動先來啟動 先來做OK 好 那我們就是因為我做了這個臨時提案"},{"start":7462.823,"end":7482.253,"text":"運營所也做了專業的評估認為應該要啟動這件事情所以應該沒有問題啦 局長沒問題 這個部分沒有問題好 那就麻煩你們這個對大台中未來的整個路網的建立對台中港未來這個蓬勃發展之後交通運輸的動線其實都很重要現在麻煩大家 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝 我們請林俊憲委員"},{"start":7500.023,"end":7502.47,"text":"好 謝謝主席 本席邀請我們交通部陳部長請部長"},{"start":7511.041,"end":7536.112,"text":"董事長好部長好部長媒體報導交通部也已經同一開始要來推所謂的行人專用實相以及行人早開秒數這樣的一個設置這其實跟我在台南推動的非常吻合我也認為這個很重要為什麼呢因為路權不能用里讓的"},{"start":7538.193,"end":7545.404,"text":"路權不能靠你的道德自我訴求你看這國外的交通耗資沒有看到什麼禮讓行人"},{"start":7546.909,"end":7572.542,"text":"只有注意行人也就是這個時間秒數是屬於車輛的或者是屬於行人的你要分開啦例如在台南市的那個的那個永華路跟西門路口就台南的新光三越以前大愛麗智酒店前面那個路口那個路口車輛要左右轉都轉不過去為什麼 因為在百貨公司前面"},{"start":7573.542,"end":7586.51,"text":"那你要左轉右轉 斑馬線都會有人在行走所以你就要等下來停下來 車輛要停下來 等行人走過去嘛 對不對但是喔 開車一定會後悔整夜啦這人有危險啦"},{"start":7588.17,"end":7611.906,"text":"走路也會後悔走路 所以駕駛就心浮氣躁 是不是這樣所以我認為應該是要把路權分開車輛的時候歸車輛 行人的時候歸行人所以行人專用十項 甚至可以像 就像日本這樣你可以走到對角線去因為行人在走路的時候 就沒有車輛在通行"},{"start":7612.967,"end":7639.36,"text":"那有車輛你在執行的時候你車輛通行的時候你斑馬線都沒有人啦這專用實相那另外一個你要推一個所謂的提早秒數啦那這個我認為當然專用實相效果最好那你行人提早專用秒數也可以解決一部分的這樣的一個問題啦只是交通部說有定一個目標那沒有達目標的縣市你要公佈"},{"start":7640.711,"end":7650.378,"text":"那如果有達目標的直轄市獎勵有獎金,我看獎金只有15萬,幼嬰夠嗎?直轄市15萬,其他我們還有分兩組15萬這樣這樣,這樣獎勵夠嗎?第二個目標是什麼?目標是什麼?沒有達目標你要公布而已,目標是什麼?"},{"start":7660.846,"end":7684.026,"text":"報告委員我們有設定一個目標值啦那各縣市其實也蠻配合也蠻幫忙我們在過去已經專用石巷跟早開石巷已經完成了6000處這個你應該要更強有力一點啦你要要求縣市政府如果支持的話我們這個要求的力道會加強力道加強啦因為這樣對改善交通非常有用"},{"start":7685.144,"end":7699.611,"text":"台北市也很嚴重啊你車輛要右轉根本轉不過去啊寶馬縣都有人在走啊那行人走 行人也會怕啊關於到不守規則的駕駛啊對不對 兩邊都不好啦專用石像是最好啦好 另外喔"},{"start":7703.069,"end":7719.463,"text":"我經常提到交通的三一你要推動一個交通政策以前第一個政府的部分有沒有做到第二個就是要求用路人第三才是處罰我們現在有訂一個行人專區行人專區"},{"start":7729.989,"end":7750.016,"text":"你的專用名詞叫什麼你這個專用名詞啦新人優先區啦你知道新人優先區吧報告委員這個我知道這個是國土署他們去設定的國土署代表人在不在但這個母法是交通部跟內政部一起訂的啦"},{"start":7751.482,"end":7778.113,"text":"你的母帕是高東坡跟內政部一起訂只是你在市區裡面人行道是內政部你管那我跟主席建議一下像這個喔因為你今天的主題是那個人本交通這個內政部應該要有相當層級的代表來出席才對來啦 博鳥你們來這邊看一下跟內政部的各方看一下"},{"start":7781.618,"end":7807.531,"text":"第一個 什麼叫新人優先區在這個區段裡面 新人最大新人沒有照則 新人沒有責任新人可以走全路寬 整條路 新人都可以走進民喇叭車輛前面有人 你不可以民喇叭第二個 速限只限二十第三 整條路都是他的 人最多"},{"start":7809.217,"end":7830.894,"text":"只有車輛讓行人而且喔那個用一點用一些比如減速的減速的材質或路面鋪面全國只有一條路現在市辦就是你現在看到的台北市啦信義區啦部長你這樣還有我們內政部這些組長嘛你看有這些什麼第一個喔你這樣的設計啊"},{"start":7836.098,"end":7841.461,"text":"駕駛也不知道這裡是行人優先區啦走路的人 你走路放心嗎因為第一個 你那個鋪面也是柏油路我給你看一下啦你要訂這個法 當時交通部跟內政部合訂這個母法的時候你的立法的原由 理由你就說要去日本"},{"start":7861.806,"end":7889.31,"text":"那其實 韓國做得比日本還好啦我給你看韓國啦韓國第一個 他的鋪面不會是柏油路啦駕駛到行人走到 走到這段路就知道說欸 這裡的路面不是一般的路面大樹也會更知道不像台灣 台灣你現在 台北市示範的第一條喔它全部都是柏油路啦所以你開車的人喔 你不會知道你進入一個不一樣的路段"},{"start":7890.762,"end":7906.692,"text":"第二個 台北市就是在兩端 個化一個長條形的藍色你如果開過這個長條形的藍色你會知道 你會一直都知道你還在新仁悠仙區嗎現在你跟內政部這個代表說啦你如果要做好 你也要這樣你試試看 我想事情喔你訂這個新仁悠仙區幹嘛 對不對"},{"start":7919.758,"end":7942.231,"text":"第二你路面也沒有寫你要讓駕駛一直知道說他行人都雙方都知道我在行人優先區你怎麼會韓國這樣寫他路面標示很清楚對不對路面鋪設材質不一樣所以車輛跟人都知道我在特殊的地方特殊的路段第三他樹線標在地上樹線只有20甚至他還有照明"},{"start":7946.733,"end":7970.535,"text":"這個照明這個看不清楚啦 它的路面是整個暗紅色的它不是像台灣只有頭尾兩端畫一個藍色的 中間過來就是柏油路它是整個路段 全部 韓國都鋪這種紅色的像磚面所以看到這個地方啊 駕駛行人都會知道所以你要嘛就不要設 要嘛你設了就很危險"},{"start":7972.915,"end":7984.34,"text":"所以這是我跟你說的喔 部長 回到我的觀念你政府要現在訂一個新的規定 沒關係但你政府的工程要先做你的硬體設計要設計就好對你喔 你要把這個納入駕駛手冊甚至納入考試啊不然大家不知道 但是你不是喔我們現在馬上開始要調高罰則了就第三個才是處罰啦"},{"start":8002.847,"end":8030.866,"text":"交通部預告修正的委婉道路交通事件你現在要提高沒有禮讓行人的罰則6月就要實施了莫托你知道現在我們沒有禮讓行人是7200你要調高到18000了導致受傷的18000要到36000然後你如果輕傷 你如果肇事最少扣假照一年"},{"start":8031.786,"end":8060.577,"text":"比較嚴重的直接吊銷你如果要提高到這麼重的罰則可以但是我說的你該做的硬體工程中央跟地方政府該做的你會把它改得好就像你部長我支持這也是我在北京你推薦的一個觀念就是全時向的行人耗資你改全時向駕駛沒有讓行人這個很清楚你根本不能左右轉"},{"start":8061.861,"end":8074.89,"text":"這叫重罰 重罰駕駛嘛你不離讓行人因為我工程做好了對不對但是你現在啊準備要重罰未離讓行人但是在6月要開始實施以前"},{"start":8076.155,"end":8094.104,"text":"在你修改你的行政命令 到你開罰中間中央跟地方政府有去修 你就去做一些工程的改善嗎 交通路口的改善其實工程的改善 我們有一個四年四百億的計畫其實這些年 從去年到今年其實好過交通嗎 你數字會講話 你造勢建樹 受傷的人"},{"start":8100.548,"end":8120.621,"text":"都有在降低啦跟委員報告另外就是說您所提到的這個修更嚴的這個部分是針對行川線也就是斑馬線是針對斑馬線那其他的部分我們沒有改變只有斑馬線而且是撞傷人或者是撞死人沒有沒有你沒有離讓你就重罰了沒有離讓沒有離讓就是說你在6公尺內你如果車沒停這叫沒離讓啦是不是這樣子"},{"start":8130.115,"end":8152.562,"text":"這條適用的規定就是在入口就是在入口當然在入口啊那這個部分的話是在處罰條例現行的裁罰你把他加重嘛然後針對這個受傷跟智能撞傷的部分把他裁罰基準再拉高這個是針對已經撞到人"},{"start":8155.069,"end":8179.874,"text":"已經種到 你知道嗎 你是一個分層級嘛 輕生看重生嘛 對對對對 好啊另外我剛才提的 像你既然要推一個新的政策 新人專用區那就把它好好做好 工程面要做好這樣有沒有 要做好 好另外你要對地方政府要求的新人全時向或者是新人早開綠燈 這個要廣泛去推動啦 好好不好好 謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":8184.326,"end":8210.998,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8216.159,"end":8217.04,"text":"現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":8243.462,"end":8256.967,"text":"今天有熱情的一年六月本期出席那你再去買一支"},{"start":8263.029,"end":8281.966,"text":"另外針對零讓的不整線的部分我們今年的六月就會完成法律計畫不整線只遭到二到三年期居民居民居民居民居會在六月份開放入口的照明其實我們明年都設定一些KTI的用途這個部分我們在今年會完成"},{"start":8288.761,"end":8299.272,"text":"市長 從國內的狀況來看 官方的利益不動的這個案就受到立法院 到我們就受到立法院的制裁 到我們就受到立法院"},{"start":8304.178,"end":8314.588,"text":"我還是希望說這個部分可以往前推進那草外甚至是跟老公說他有政治的討論不是只有教育的問題 但是有教育的問題還有什麼"},{"start":8324.138,"end":8333.262,"text":"我們希望您的行動會成為確實在周圍內自然看到的文化封鎖的一大部分希望您的工作才會成為一件實際的活動"},{"start":8342.188,"end":8356.539,"text":"希望中央市現在的情況下 每次有去療癒然後去處理的情況 例如說外遇的那種 現在的狀態那如果有的話 也要從排除菌的方法去處理"},{"start":8357.439,"end":8364.041,"text":"我們必須要看到時候現在的狀況是什麼譬如說國安公司要來補償我們就會希望說 根據國安公司來的經濟非常好"},{"start":8382.828,"end":8389.017,"text":"那如果是我們營業者可以說同社他們做到很大的營業上面的損害那或許對營業者也會有很大的影響謝謝"},{"start":8400.212,"end":8402.433,"text":"河沙沙沙沙"},{"start":8420.023,"end":8421.904,"text":"哈哈哈哈哈哈"},{"start":8436.89,"end":8436.93,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":8459.157,"end":8462.2,"text":"好久不見了好久不見"},{"start":8486.8,"end":8489.202,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的餐廳"},{"start":8510.478,"end":8511.479,"text":"再給我再給我"},{"start":8526.107,"end":8527.008,"text":"好 好 好"},{"start":8542.086,"end":8546.809,"text":"在最後再拿一片 混著煮的辣椒醬醬醬醬醬醬醬醬醬"},{"start":8573.587,"end":8573.607,"text":"鞭筍"},{"start":8821.752,"end":8834.064,"text":"好,現在開始開會,我們請陳雪生委員好,謝謝抓委,是不是請部長?請部長部長早"},{"start":8844.728,"end":8864.936,"text":"這個電視上都沒有看到你的名字,你面帶微笑正通人和我看藍綠白立委對你都很像沒什麼大的意見謝謝委員恭喜那個高雄飛馬祖航線,謝謝我們召委許智傑召委我們共同努力,還有陳吉邁市長"},{"start":8866.139,"end":8888.454,"text":"這個是藍綠最佳的一個典範、範例所以我昨天也致電陳培宇書記長馬祖還有很多事情我們也希望藍綠共同來合作,這個才很重要上次去高雄飛馬祖好像很可惜我們很辛苦,我在那邊執行台執行了四年"},{"start":8889.557,"end":8906.328,"text":"至於四年好不容易爭取到飛一班才一班當然華信很辛苦他沒有飛機沒有機師在這樣的情況之下你看又燃料油的問題我們都找了中油很多單位幫忙"},{"start":8907.689,"end":8935.465,"text":"部長那邊是最辛苦的幫我們努力部長有沒有機會再增加一班好不好我們現在先看運量就是說我們先一班飛飛看如果是運量很充足或者是需求大於供給的時候我們供給面當然就想辦法來增加因為那裡禮拜五的客人飛過去他沒有飛機回來是不是禮拜五飛過去如果禮拜一禮拜二有飛機回來的話這條線才叫完全打通"},{"start":8937.15,"end":8964.331,"text":"我們確實很努力在做這件事情,我也知道交通部很努力啦我們藍綠白的立委大家都很辛苦在幫我們馬祖爭取,我非常感謝尤其我們地方政府的王中平縣長還有我們張永江議長特別要我在這邊對部長表示感謝好不好大家一起努力,謝謝另外昨天蒙澳港我們西舉這個地方的工程看似不大,但是非常的艱鉅"},{"start":8966.777,"end":8994.909,"text":"它的遊客中心啟用了業局長很辛苦,早上飛過去,下午飛回來把它啟用了但是這個島,我前幾天上島的時候,兩百多個人上去算是非常多的人最近觀光,馬祖不如澎湖跟金門來的預期的那麼好人數非常少所以民眾也抱怨,等於就是做一個旺季的時候才有人去"},{"start":8995.854,"end":9006.987,"text":"要五六個月,可以說非常慘淡的在經營部長能不能督促豐泥管理署,豐泥管理署就是觀光署這兩個島每一年增加一個景點"},{"start":9016.005,"end":9043.206,"text":"景點,因為阿兵哥有分析領域區等等稍微投入一兩千萬弄個景點出來,讓觀光客到那邊有的走好不好這個拜託部長你記下來好,我們來研究一下我們15號要去,14號要去考察,去馬祖考察那這裡面大部分地方政府都是對交通部感謝"},{"start":9044.927,"end":9068.459,"text":"唯一的就是北竿機場還有一點雜音,何局長今天沒有來拜託部長跟何局長講簡報,尤其是配套措施尤其要注意好不好當然港公司委託港公司做,港公司規劃設計還沒有出來有一些施工的期程不是很清楚"},{"start":9069.315,"end":9086.531,"text":"那麼請他們在簡報上,對後續的噪音、一些交通的補助、對居民造成不便的這些配套,都提醒他注意一下好不好好,我請他們做比較詳細的說明主要是由民航局來簡報請他們做更詳細的說明"},{"start":9088.38,"end":9100.835,"text":"還有馬祖大橋,公路局有來嗎今天?馬祖大橋那天我在總諮詢的時候,公路總局委託世西做綜合規劃綜合規劃已經也抱怨了"},{"start":9107.472,"end":9132.99,"text":"那麼這個馬祖大橋,在一百年八月的時候還有一百一十一年六月一百一十一年的十二月,那麼綜合規劃抱怨一百一十二年,北竿的這個月裡面講說施工等到這個因為跟北竿機場有關聯嘛,他要等施工的時候再來做評估"},{"start":9134.571,"end":9154.994,"text":"那麼委託連江線南北塊海大橋的規劃新建的探討報告書報告書,那麼送院目前在被查目前在被審查交通部還沒有接到被查的程序還沒有接到被查的程序,我希望公路總局對這個部分還是緊盯的好不好"},{"start":9155.888,"end":9183.433,"text":"那另外能不能請公務總局給世襲一張韓文因為那天提到288億是你們最後的一個算出來的,是不是這樣對,中規的報告我們是288億那麼後續院長嘴巴吐出來300多億370幾億很像這個數字是殷商那邊提出來的我想殷商提出來的數字絕對沒有世襲準確是不是請交通部再韓文給世襲"},{"start":9184.913,"end":9206.139,"text":"請他們做個精算好不好可是我們中規裡面市區已經做了精算中規裡面是288億但是他卻採用殷商的報告說300多億300多億跟200多億差很多目前我們也沒有急因為院裡面的初估的評估是要等北竿機場"},{"start":9207.552,"end":9227.862,"text":"施工的時候要來討論這件事情但是我們未雨綢繆有一些東西要準備好那局長可以嗎我們會這一個因為那個世襲這邊的話就是說相關的一個計算的部分我想我們會跟他討論那局長你請回齁這些拜託一下好不好弄完以後跟我回報一下齁"},{"start":9229.87,"end":9252.153,"text":"風景管理處那個橋子遊客中心,大概延宕了一兩年,都書觀光署能夠盡快把它完成橋子跟大丘的橋端那邊,頭端,那個遊客中心動作快一點馬祖現在工程很傷腦筋,錢預算來了,工程發包不出去"},{"start":9253.325,"end":9263.254,"text":"我們的中山國中就是北竿的中山國中發報多少次?發報27次發報了27次27次最後憲政委員會為什麼要妥協?因為發報不出去的話預算要繳回"},{"start":9269.414,"end":9285.021,"text":"那這個錢好不容易爭取到手啦這個肉已經到嘴巴口了,你說我們不吞下去嗎所以減相發包,勉強廠商進場所以類似的功能很多,馬祖裡面做功能是非常辛苦所以我拜託就是說"},{"start":9286.941,"end":9311.292,"text":"因為還有沙石的問題等等所以交通部這邊當然對我們很幫忙因為有一些是透過小三通的貨船從大陸沙石運到馬祖來因為馬祖缺工缺料很嚴重所以這個拜託交通部已經幫忙了更進一步好不好還有一個問題就是小三通我們通的非常不好"},{"start":9312.116,"end":9338.457,"text":"五一長假,你看大陸來了很多到金門去我們馬祖去寥寥無幾,倒是我們去的人比較多現在還有一個就是平潭平潭那邊要飛,平潭的船要直航台北港那當初國安的考慮是國安的考慮是什麼呢?國安的考慮是他們的船過來,我們沒有船過去因為要雙向嘛"},{"start":9339.249,"end":9367.372,"text":"那現在我們也大概找了一條船,準備從台北港往平潭那這樣雙向就對等嘛這個部長回去找航港局再研究一下好不好這裡面可能還要跟陸委會磋商因為現在兩岸的形勢非常不好兩岸對峙的非常嚴重因為不是攻台了,現在在圍台嘛,氣氛很不好那我又擔心什麼呢現在台灣很多同胞、鄉親"},{"start":9368.823,"end":9397.171,"text":"去大陸比如老百姓這樣去自由行是沒有問題的如果團去的話或是比如說有一些團體去的話可能會被調查會被問話所以他們有些也不報名了就資助不全那陸客來這裡我們也不放我們也不放為什麼呢他來這邊我們都把他當匪諜我們都把他當匪諜可能是不是刺探軍情或是收買我們人心或是搞一些統戰"},{"start":9398.325,"end":9420.247,"text":"不會啦,觀光客不會把他當廢諜去年也來了三十幾萬人剛才我跟我弟弟在辦公室還在聊天趕快去大陸,不去的話以後去不了因為人都有這樣的一個心理那我們小兩會目前有沒有跟對方去接觸我們有跟他們接觸,但目前他們沒有比較善意的回應"},{"start":9420.936,"end":9450.256,"text":"沒有善意回應,我上次去大陸杭州的時候跟他們聊,他們說他們希望我們小黨會跟他們提出來我們有提啊有嗎?我們有,我們有提好,那我有機會的話碰到他們的這些領導,我也希望能夠把兩岸的緊張情勢逐漸能夠緩和但是希望你們不要把我當匪諜好不好?不會不會啊?等一下用什麼反滲透法,等一下立法院幹不成沒關係,被抓起來關聯一下"},{"start":9451.256,"end":9470.98,"text":"這一點拜託部長,能夠在兩岸旅遊的部分這個部分我還是歡迎,還是歡迎他們來我想謝謝部長的協助,那麼就14號馬祖見考察的時候也拜託部長多費點心好不好,你去馬祖因為沒去過幾次嘛好不好,謝謝部長,謝謝好謝謝大委好謝謝洪恩賢、陳書業委員"},{"start":9482.685,"end":9489.651,"text":"副委員好"},{"start":9502.39,"end":9519.418,"text":"部長早那今天委員會的主題就是針對這個人本交通及交通安全事情的狀況進行尋討那我們也看到賴總統在去年的國慶日的時候也有公開的宣示說要加速提升全國路網的安全"},{"start":9520.078,"end":9548.701,"text":"那這個也是我們交通部的一個重點的政策目標那我們也看到部長在二月初的時候的記者會有宣示就是說要這個道安三支鍵就是針對路口的照明還有就是這個停止線的在退縮還有這個就是隔熱紙的透光率等等要來提升這個交通安全那我在這邊想請教一下部長就是說你這樣子的道安三支鍵"},{"start":9550.362,"end":9575.937,"text":"預計的就是內容或者是說你要怎樣去落實那預計多久的時間要有什麼樣的可以看到這個成果報告委員針對這個行川線的這個跟停止線之間的距離我們在今年的六月底之前我們會完成法制化那完成法制化之後我們也會請地方政府先去盤點因為有些地方我們雖然過去的規定是一到三公尺"},{"start":9576.397,"end":9599.798,"text":"但有些地方政府他們的那個劃設停止線跟行川線的距離可能不到一公尺所以我們會拜託他們優先處理這一塊距離太近的部分會先處理六月份我們法制化之後就會下去拜託地方政府那另外針對這個路口的這個照明的改善我們公路局目前有盤點了400處在今年要來做改善那目前已經完成了13處在第三季我們會完成100處"},{"start":9600.859,"end":9625.838,"text":"那今年會完成400處那另外更關鍵的是地方政府我們也會拜託他們也幫忙如果經費上需要補助我們也可以來協助那希望他們也針對他們自己市區的那些路口的照明的部分能夠來做加強那最後一個就是針對這個隔熱紙的部分我們六月份會有一個這個隔熱紙的指引告訴大家說前檔未來能夠貼的隔熱紙的透光率是多少那側檔的這個前側檔的"},{"start":9628.26,"end":9638.648,"text":"透光率應該是多少那明年115年我們就會進入法制化的階段我們希望在明年完成法制化的推行那之後就會變成強制性要求大家一定要這麼做"},{"start":9639.574,"end":9668.351,"text":"是好那因為一些習慣的改變可能還是需要就是宣導要有一段時間宣導所以我們會先用指引出來對對對因為有些駕駛人就是目前就有針對這個隔熱紙的部分有一些聲音所以我們也希望就是說要盡量的去勸宣導說這個對交通安全的重要性然後也不要說一下子就有罰則然後可以慢慢的去讓"},{"start":9669.712,"end":9696.273,"text":"駕駛人可以習慣改善方委員這個部分我們除了宣導之外我們還會顧慮兩個部分第一個就是說我們希望要考量到我們是東南亞國家所以我們隔熱紙其實有它一定的必要性因為我們比較熱太陽比較大所以我們只是訂一個規範多少的透光率以上但不會告訴大家不能貼所以要考量氣候是第一個第二個考量到不要影響到大家的荷包"},{"start":9697.134,"end":9713.633,"text":"也就是說我們針對舊車的部分我們不會去要求我們會針對未來的新車未來的新車就是說當我們法制化之後你所簽的這個新的車子來要貼隔熱紙或者是說要換隔熱紙的時候你就必須要照我們新的法規來做"},{"start":9714.899,"end":9735.516,"text":"是 好 謝謝部長因為你這樣說明就比較明確因為現在有的駕駛人一看到這個就在擔心說那他們現在是不是還要再去做一個更換或者是說沒有更換就會被罰我們不會要求現在現有的車子去做這個更換隔熱紙的動作因為我知道隔熱紙其實也不便宜不要增加大家的負擔那未來的新車我們就會管制"},{"start":9736.036,"end":9761.698,"text":"是好謝謝部長的說明那我們也看到就是說在這個賴總統在參加有關環路那個什麼環路全漁民的這個活動的時候也有宣示說這個全國799處的這個路口要優先來改善所以我們目前看到就是說這個達成率98%看起來這個達成率是可以說是非常滿意可是"},{"start":9763.419,"end":9785.062,"text":"以各縣市來看的話彰化縣的達成率卻是非常的低不曉得部長有沒有去了解這個部分報告員當時他確實工程發包上面是有一些進度上的問題目前應該他都已經完成了全部完工了嗎?對 全部完成了 那我們799處只剩下一處還沒完成那應該5月20號之前就可以完成"},{"start":9785.422,"end":9802.007,"text":"是好我想說這部分我們也希望就是說中央也可以盡力來協助地方來完成需要改善的這個路口那另外我們也看到就是說運營所在今年就是有公布了這個道路交通標誌標線號誌設置參考指引"},{"start":9804.928,"end":9832.39,"text":"當然我們也很肯定交通部就是做這樣子的一個指引可是我們也知道就是說有些道路的規劃就是有的是地方的權責有的是中央的權責所以難免會有中央地方是權不一的狀況所以有時候在這個指引公布之前其實地方就有他們的標線標誌的畫色那我不曉得說像這個圖片中這樣子的一個標誌標線這是屬於地方的嘛"},{"start":9832.91,"end":9851.54,"text":"那部長你知道這個是什麼這個應該是他前面有一個圈圈的地方如果你要左轉你要越過那個圈圈再左轉他是圓環啊他一個小小很小的一個圓環對他的他的應該是用意是在告訴用這個駕駛人前面有圓環的意思是"},{"start":9851.86,"end":9867.778,"text":"可是這樣子的標誌看起來就是讓網友戲稱為說好像畢卡索的這個比較少見就我們所知這個應該是高雄市政府自己在試辦因為我們看到的圓環是用立體的那個圓環的一個標誌的指示"},{"start":9868.979,"end":9883.312,"text":"所以就是說要怎樣讓這個標誌標線可以一致或者是說我們中央的目前這個指引可以落實我想這個可能也是要交通部再做去進一步的一個檢討那最後一個問題就是說有關"},{"start":9885.174,"end":9898.947,"text":"這個死亡就是交通事故死亡人數的這部分剛剛部長在做報告的時候一開場就有講到就是說2024年對比2023年的這個死傷的人數總死亡人數減少了2.4%那總受傷人數減少了2.8%可是我們就這樣子一個數字來看就是"},{"start":9906.333,"end":9931.064,"text":"針對這個大型車事故導致死亡的人數卻是增加的增加就是2024年比2023年增加了有13.7%所以針對這樣子一個特別的一個車型車種的一個事故我想這樣子也是蠻嚴重的因為即使之前我們為了要降低大型車事故我們在2018年就是有推動就是新車必須裝設行車視野輔助系統這樣子的一個政策"},{"start":9935.827,"end":9955.647,"text":"2020年也把它就是納為監理所要訂檢的一個項目可是到今天2025年就是到去年2024年的統計的一個事故卻沒有減少是增加的所以對這樣子一個狀況我們交通部有沒有一個比較新的一個政策就是說針對這樣的交通事故我們要怎樣去調整"},{"start":9957.06,"end":9979.915,"text":"報告委員這個教育訓練的部分對駕駛的教育訓練的部分也是相當重要所以對於停讓的這個宣導我們當然會加強那另外針對大型車輛的這個駕駛如果他是高違規的這個風險我們都有一個調訓跟回訓的一個機制我們希望能夠讓他們透過重新的訓練讓他們的觀念能夠更好"},{"start":9981.696,"end":10004.699,"text":"那我們現在甚至針對這個行人的這個違規就是不停讓行人造成死傷的話不只是駕駛業者的這個管理者跟他的這個可能他的負責人都必須要來做調訓的部分那我們希望從宣導面也要加強當然輔助的設施要裝但是不一定能夠完全杜絕駕駛人的習慣才是最重要的那這個部分我們會來加強"},{"start":10005.94,"end":10034.989,"text":"對 是在上一次的質詢其實我有提到就是交通安全改善就是要四個面向就是四一就是這個監理 法治 工程還有就是罰則就是處罰四個面向所以這個教育的這個部分也是非常重要所以就是說不管是從工程面的改善或者是教育或者是監理然後最後才是罰則所以我們希望就是說這個四個面向都要"},{"start":10035.729,"end":10062.617,"text":"就是平衡的一個重視好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝我們請魯明哲委員好謝謝主席有請我們交通部陳部長請部長"},{"start":10069.446,"end":10082.304,"text":"部長好委員好這個因為今天時間不多直接進入主題好剛剛很多委員也有特別提到事實上我們當然您是去年才擔任交通部部長"},{"start":10083.601,"end":10104.257,"text":"那一磅接一磅事實上在過去十幾年來不斷的透過我們道路品質的改善標線標誌的優化甚至有些道安的教育講協不斷的推動但是我們看對於整體的一個事故交通事故來講從100年那一年有31.4萬人受傷到"},{"start":10110.322,"end":10127.84,"text":"去年最高點那今年還有52.4萬大概成長了將近超過20萬人受傷那死亡的人數也在上面就感覺起起伏伏的另外一個事故的比例更為明顯100年是20.6萬件"},{"start":10131.764,"end":10145.272,"text":"那到了112年最高峰的時候到達了40.3萬件成長比例高達70%那部長你先整體說一下啦因為我看到你有蠻多的發言就針對但是回歸到"},{"start":10146.474,"end":10165.577,"text":"事故當然有很多價值因素或者什麼其他的因素都有那你覺得這個比去年來講我們是微幅向下修正你覺得現在大概整個有什麼樣的一個方法能夠更有效的去改善這樣的一個情況跟減少這樣傷亡的數字"},{"start":10166.058,"end":10190.717,"text":"您說明一下報告委員其實要改善交通的安全方方面面其實很多事要做我們剛剛最簡單的四個一教育層面然後工程面然後我們執法面監理面各方面我們都必須要做那我們在數據上面看起來確實在一一二年是非常的高那一一三年不管是受傷或者是這個死亡的人數有稍稍的降低那我們當然不滿意也不滿足"},{"start":10191.678,"end":10208.665,"text":"我們必須要加快所有層面的努力那也感謝委員其實你也都一直很關注這個議題大家都關注的狀況底下其實我們在今年的數據看起來會相對於過去看起來趨勢會更好一點那我們要做的路口的設置一定要把它先做好"},{"start":10209.405,"end":10238.388,"text":"所以我們799處的改善已經先做了那我們省道的2000處的這個路口改善我們也先做了不過後續還有更細緻化的內容要去做那很多啦很多事情其實可能三言兩語講不完好 這個部長其實這個中央地方啦因為地方也負責非常多的一個交通的不管是他的規劃設計執法的一個工作啦但是一個整個政策的一個帶動的一個方向我還是希望交通部能夠有具體的一個方向"},{"start":10239.188,"end":10260.162,"text":"第二個我們再把這些事故縮短到在人行道把它縮小人行道發生的交通事故就是人走在正式人行道或者標線人行道等等還發生了事故我們來看一下在過去大概將近10年104年統計到今年的3月將近10年多一點的時間"},{"start":10261.283,"end":10276.256,"text":"先看一下總數總件數5700多件就是發生事故是在行人走在人行道上面發生的其實這是很不應該的其中也造成了48人死亡"},{"start":10278.199,"end":10292.38,"text":"7029人受傷啊這事故造成的一個傷亡的一個比例啊其實我是覺得蠻高的那當然看他的運劇來分類的話機慢車的比例是最多的機慢車包括了因為"},{"start":10292.961,"end":10308.122,"text":"很多是不是因為在人行道或者騎樓停車順便要出入的過程中還是有很多的一個情況發生這樣的一個行人在人行道發生事故這個部分今天營建署有來嗎"},{"start":10310.622,"end":10323.339,"text":"蔡組長你來說一下好不好因為我看到你們的一個數字給我的數字這關鍵點就是說我們這十年發生這樣的一個情況然後呢它的背景因為"},{"start":10324.941,"end":10349.986,"text":"國土署你們是以人本的基礎不管是投入資金希望在整個道路上面分工上面人本的部分跟你關係比較大那你這邊特別數據說從100年開始到113年13年間我們人行道這是不得了從3200多公里到剛剛你給我的數據113年年底的話到了11000"},{"start":10352.079,"end":10364.051,"text":"多公里的人行道所以成長了3.4倍啊成長3.4倍那你要說一下這成長3.4倍對於這個人行道發生事故的話你覺得是主要什麼原因啊"},{"start":10366.274,"end":10395.499,"text":"你來表達一下你們努力了半天也成長了3.4倍那人行道發生事故的話還是你說是交通部的事沒關係我請交通部來說人行道的事故剛剛看委員所提供的這個表格其實看起來確實是汽機車行駛人行道所造成的行人的傷亡好那再一個問題你就可以稍微休息就是你11000多公里在這幾年快速成長有多少是標線型的人行道"},{"start":10397.045,"end":10413.525,"text":"有多少是標線型人行道嘛就加分之加嘛就油漆一劃下去人行道就多個兩公里大概有沒有去統計有統計標線型的嗎標線型目前沒有統計那你要統計一下好不好好那這個部分我再請部長"},{"start":10415.305,"end":10438.277,"text":"我要拜託您一件事啦至少我在桃園跟很多縣市看到這幾年要去突破你必須除了新有新的道路它就有人行道很多老舊的以前已經很有歷史的道路它就是這麼窄啦它真的沒有辦法有時候在水溝蓋弄平整就標線型的人行道就出來了我是不是能拜託您一件事啦"},{"start":10439.257,"end":10466.017,"text":"因為標線性人行道剛開始做先實驗性質我可以接受但是如果半年一年以後發覺確實有功能要長久來做行人通行的這個部分我要再拜託尤其從評估從通過的人最多的開始做起來加什麼第一個要不然最簡單是防撞感但是防撞感只是警示作用不太防撞那第二個是防撞"},{"start":10467.518,"end":10494.143,"text":"這個欄杆這在這個的部分我建議就是當標線型人行道已經劃設成為固定的能不能從人最多通行的評估開始來做防撞桿或者防撞欄杆這個部分我們希望交通部或是說應該是國土署你們未來補助也針對這個議題下去來幫忙甚至也能夠加入原石如果它變固定的"},{"start":10495.003,"end":10521.831,"text":"你要加一個路源時 可不可以朝這個方向來做呢好 報告委員這個部分我們也會來補助地方政府如果地方政府願意這麼做的話在經費上有需要交通部跟內政部國土署我們一起來協助他們好 這個是確實是有需要好的 那我也拜託國土署你要先統計你還是要真的要統計標線型的有多少然後各縣市提供人通行最多的可能學校旁邊或什麼我是覺得要開始去做"},{"start":10522.651,"end":10541.003,"text":"那最後一個還是要拜託這要跟地方政府一起努力因為在比較有歷史的道路在過去的房屋其實它的設計都沒有人行道但是透過騎樓來通行的可是現在狀況因為我前幾天有民眾問我說某一條路奇怪怎麼都走在"},{"start":10542.222,"end":10563.118,"text":"快車道上面然後我就想其實你應該走在騎樓裡面只是因為時代久遠了騎樓它就蓋起來變店面了所以我是覺得第一個針對於有功能的騎樓要拜託要有補助去做一個整平對於重要道路如果被違建"},{"start":10564.039,"end":10589.666,"text":"去無法貫通的我也要建議要鼓勵鼓勵來做至少指標性的這麼多人要通行重點開始去做這就是我個人的一個建議可不可以朝這個政策面去引導一下報告員我所知道國土署他們針對這個騎樓的貫通跟整平他們有一定的預算在補助地方所以可以鼓勵地方盡量做那中央的部分來協助經費的部分我們都會來做"},{"start":10590.728,"end":10598.511,"text":"好來大家一起努力尤其標線型希望能夠加這個好不好謝謝謝謝魯冰哲委員的發言接著有請我們許智傑召委謝謝主席我們請部長有請陳部長"},{"start":10626.317,"end":10636.688,"text":"副院長好部長好那個他山之石可以攻錯那我是覺得有些當然你看了其他的國家的"},{"start":10638.418,"end":10664.509,"text":"畫面你會發現說這個其實我們之前沒有想到所以你可以看到那個剛才林俊憲委員提到的那個兒童專用區那個圖片你把那個image想一下跟我們的就真的不一樣那也許我們以前正好沒有想到說他們我們也可以這麼做所以有些東西其實上我們就換個角度去想看怎麼樣去加強"},{"start":10666.123,"end":10679.629,"text":"你看我們兒童交通公園上面這一個是東京三濱兒童交通公園你看上面那兩個圖馬路就是馬路紅綠燈就是紅綠燈那它那個設計是模擬是跟真的一樣"},{"start":10692.037,"end":10719.183,"text":"所以你看你在做兒童的從小的交通安全嘗試的教育的時候你就可以看到這個圖他們是很真實的那你看底下這兩個是我們交通部補助的就是我們鳳山的新墻公園跟萬華的青年公園這個也是兒童交通公園你就可以發現有它不一樣的地方"},{"start":10720.305,"end":10748.207,"text":"我們都用大人來看孩子你看底下這個,他是一種小朋友的我們大人看小朋友的觀點我們的比例這麼大,你的比例就這麼大事實上小朋友他走到真實的馬路上去的時候你還記得小時候你看到那個很大的廣場,現在長大以後來看,看得這麼小所以他那個小孩子的視野跟視角跟我們大人是不一樣的"},{"start":10749.634,"end":10771.873,"text":"所以他如果要給他交通安全教育 你就是要給他比較真實的交通安全教育所以其實在運動公園 交通安 交通公園部分我是希望交通部觀念可以改變一下那之前其實我一直希望說其實你像日本這些三便交通公園 會有很多孩子去玩"},{"start":10773.911,"end":10794.179,"text":"甚至觀光客也可以去玩他還要準備一些免費的自行車讓你在那遊玩也好 學習也好他就是很認真 還可以玩所以很多 這個是蠻熱門的變成一個小景點那其實我本來在高雄 我們的高雄機場"},{"start":10795.578,"end":10823.965,"text":"現在我們的其邁市長那時候我們有一起在努力現在已經規劃成全國最大的市內親子遊樂區啦當時其實我也曾經提過說有沒有機會用兒童交通公園的概念去設計那當然現在有另外一個不同的概念我們也去推動也不錯不過我是希望說交通部有沒有機會不一定在我家用啦找個地方"},{"start":10825.474,"end":10832.969,"text":"慢慢的就是說這個地方你在台中也好啊在台北也好啊甚至我們在高雄再找一個好的地點也好"},{"start":10833.976,"end":10861.439,"text":"這個其實我說對兒童教育或者是北中南各都有這個對兒童教育來講他才會擬真也才會真的學習我之前還跟你約請委員去看一個那個兒童的視角你蹲下去你蹲下去再看那個路面跟你站著看真的是不一樣然後再來就是說你兒童兒童視角我們現在視角差不多八八度他們視角可能只有九十度而已越久回 越長"},{"start":10863.73,"end":10881.554,"text":"這個有時候我們大人都忘記了小時候那個的感覺所以我是希望說交通部可以做這樣子的規劃現在已經有規劃我們在監理站的部分桃園監理站也會做一個擬真的這個道路的教育設計已經做好了高雄鎖也在做了在哪個點在鎖門部"},{"start":10892.236,"end":10896.939,"text":"因為這個我以前有建議過啦那謝謝我們交通部這樣子有幫我們建議採納因為付諸實險這個是好事啊大概什麼時候會完產"},{"start":10909.594,"end":10929.232,"text":"高雄什麼時候我們都是目前都是在今年年底會完成年底會完成好OK我們總共會有四個點四個點哪裡就是在士林監理站雲林監理站台北鎖跟高雄鎖都在我們的監理所的有一些這個空地我們會在做設計"},{"start":10937.098,"end":10956.666,"text":"我們交通部有採納意見我們也先感謝再來我以前也問過我們交通安全交易車這個在日本其實也還蠻流行的我們交通部也跟我說有做後來有做是什麼呢你看下一張有做的是做這個行動監理車"},{"start":10958.888,"end":10986.037,"text":"跟他們的那個教育巡迴教育車是不一樣的性質那當然就是說我們再來檢討這個行動監理車啦行動監理車這個駕照跟牌照的業務這個都有做這個是好事就是說我們讓偏鄉的長輩可以就是比較方便但是呢現在我們要換照對不對換照比如說高齡換照現在大部分也有在思考換照你要讓長輩更方便"},{"start":10986.977,"end":11000.215,"text":"所以你看這個危險感知體驗跟那個模擬駕駛我舉下面一個例子你看我會比較直接這個AI的實境這個你們現在也有在做嘛對不對有"},{"start":11003.517,"end":11015.095,"text":"就是目前大概有一些這個危險感知的平台對對模擬的實境的一些影片對對對就是這一個嘛這個也是我看那個新聞看到的啦這不是遊戲機高聯換駕照"},{"start":11018.451,"end":11037.396,"text":"那將迎接AI的關卡那我是這樣建議啦就是說交通部再思考一下就是說你這個行動監理車如果加入這個AI實境的模擬或者是說AR這個在裡面將來你要讓長輩去換照就更方便"},{"start":11039.412,"end":11051.368,"text":"他不用再照去健康檢查還是說有幾項比較基本的需求那我們就把他設計在那個行動監理車裡面那長輩將來要換照我想他就很方便嘛"},{"start":11052.488,"end":11080.407,"text":"這個是不是交通部可以考量一下還是我跟會員報告行動監理車因為他就是把監理站延伸所以相關的一些網路設備我們都帶出去高齡患照目前只要做認知功能測驗認知功能測驗基本上在行動監理車上做沒有問題這個更延伸就是說做AI做這個部分目前我們還在做相關的示範並不是說強制說高齡患照一定要經過這樣子的一個關卡"},{"start":11082.348,"end":11109.909,"text":"趕快示範成功嘛因為這個將來這個是全世界的潮流這個很必要嘛AI一定會進入你的生活的嘛那如果說這一個再包括行動間禮車再包括長輩的這個換照的AI的這個試驗那甚至再加上兒童其實兒童現在有很多那個像現在那個什麼方程式賽車啦有很多模擬的"},{"start":11111.26,"end":11123.838,"text":"這是模擬的 孩子其實這個也可以放時間這個部分其實都可以一起去做思考我今天去講 重點就是說第一個謝謝我們提到的這個兒童交通"},{"start":11125.953,"end":11146.462,"text":"這個公園你們也確實有做了這個謝謝我們諮詢總是有看到實質的成績那第二個就是我們繼續再要求希望這個行動監理車可以增加擴大它的功能也許可以適用在老人甚至未來兒童的巡迴交易車也可以一併來做思考好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":11159.205,"end":11167.198,"text":"謝謝我們現在請何欣淳委員謝謝許昭偉那我們是不是請陳部長請部長"},{"start":11180.066,"end":11198.266,"text":"前面有幾位委員在關心我們現在對於整個交通的一些路口的一個改善還有在包括部長你所提到的我們不管是中央的資源要下到地方要協助地方就中央地方一起合作來改善交通"},{"start":11199.127,"end":11225.073,"text":"那也有運營所一個指引我只是提醒我們希望這個指引是要有因地制宜的空間而且是正確的方向只要能夠改善交通的我們要全力支持我為什麼必須要這麼講部長來自台中你也知道台中原縣區跟原市區有都市計畫跟非都地區我想這個參差不齊而且不一定道路連貫"},{"start":11226.013,"end":11251.35,"text":"那所以在這樣子的一個區域性的一個設置我們的指引我認為必須要有這個地方政府的意見第一個第二個這個指引我希望也有因地制宜的一個空間部長這個你應該同意啦報告委員這個我們會同意啦這個沒有問題我們的指引其實都市跟這個鄉村其實是有不一樣的指引"},{"start":11252.17,"end":11266.937,"text":"那每一個地方政府其實我們都一直強調一件事就是因地制宜啦我們有個指引讓大家有個統一的規格跟標準但是在不一樣的路口遇到不一樣的狀況他可以因地制宜去做他的改變只要符合法規以內都可以我只是提醒只要能夠"},{"start":11267.597,"end":11292.868,"text":"改善交通我們都全力支持不管在預算跟法規制度面但是呢我們也會碰到譬如說地方上的這個都市跟非都地區那個道路系統或者是他可能呢在原台中市呢他現在12米的都市界位可能銜接到原台中線的時候他可能變成6米或是8米的一個非都的道路喔所以類似這樣的狀況我想不是只有台中市有"},{"start":11293.728,"end":11317.81,"text":"其他縣市也一定都會有那我希望呢在這個交通這個道路的安全的設施設備的這樣的設置的指引裡面我們交通部的這個原則也應該要考量到地方的一個不同還有地方區域性的一個交通的一個現實的狀況這部長我是提醒的因為呢我很怕地方政府會把你這個指引奉為"},{"start":11319.672,"end":11334.39,"text":"這個唯一的標準那未來在改善入口的時候呢會變成是明明的沒大娘什麼穿在孩子的身上還是說孩子穿大娘什麼就類似這樣的事情發生啦這個我希望能夠跟"},{"start":11335.111,"end":11352.202,"text":"地方政府多做溝通啦這第一個為什麼會關心交通因為呢交通是基礎建設那也是要維護我們國人的人身安全甚至的不是只有國人包括國際觀光客我想我們這個行人地域這樣子的一個"},{"start":11353.263,"end":11377.142,"text":"封號是國際媒體給我們的我覺得那是一個恥辱我們應該要改善沒錯但是呢我們要維護這個交通的安全那我們就要友善行人那要友善行人那我們要發展觀光部長你也是台中人你如果帶國際友人要來台中你會帶他去哪裡台中啊對啊"},{"start":11377.892,"end":11391.285,"text":"台中一中商圈我是比較喜歡去的地方光夜市一中商圈我喜歡吃小吃所以我會帶去那裡我已經不小心給你了一個這樣子的list所以你會這樣子來回答"},{"start":11393.187,"end":11420.283,"text":"一中商圈呢說真的我也喜歡去年輕朋友也喜歡去國際觀光客也喜歡去但是以台中來講我們有很多的美景美食還有很多的地方好山好水但是以過去112年我們十大觀光的油氣區的時候我們都還有三個一中商圈草屋道逢甲夜市都侷限在原市區是"},{"start":11421.744,"end":11438.243,"text":"到了113年我們只剩下一個一中商圈排在全台灣的前十大而且還在第十名那也都局限在原市區那部長你來自大烏龍海線海線有很多的"},{"start":11439.959,"end":11456.44,"text":"美景嘛那比如說高美實地是國際級的觀賞落日的地方人山人海很多人都會去但是我就要跟你講我們提升觀光品質怎麼做第二個我們的景點之間的一個道路"},{"start":11457.381,"end":11472.524,"text":"交通又要如何銜接跟改善我知道這是地方政府的事也許你會這樣回答我但是如果站在中央的角度如何讓台灣成為是一個觀光的一個最好的一個國家"},{"start":11474.385,"end":11500.273,"text":"讓國際觀光客願意選擇來台灣觀光那進來台灣之後又願意選擇台中來觀光我想這個是中央跟地方大家要一起努力的對不對對沒錯我們也跟地方政府其實一直都有在配合可是我就要提醒你一件事喔我非常肯定也謝謝你譬如說在機場你有這樣子的旅客中心但是呢從機場到高美濕地你知道怎麼搭公車嗎"},{"start":11501.853,"end":11520.488,"text":"這個我沒有體驗過,不曉得沒有公車要轉車轉好幾次我們也沒有那個shuttle bus我只是提醒我們可以做什麼那從高鐵站怎麼到高梅斯蒂應該也是要轉車轉好幾次"},{"start":11525.192,"end":11547.414,"text":"報告委員其實在交通面我們有台灣好行,觀光署還有台灣好行在各個縣市我們都透過台灣好行去串接景點之間今天雖然觀光署沒有來,但是因為今天在討論交通嘛那我就說交通跟觀光的連結是互相都非常必要的嘛,不僅僅是國人要去觀光"},{"start":11548.315,"end":11567.137,"text":"要去景點國際觀光客尤其現在自由行的散客越來越多而且我認為絕大部分自由行的散客那自由行的散客我們要規劃的就是觀光路線跟交通安全那交通裡面的道路系統又如何銜接我們的這個觀光景點"},{"start":11569.398,"end":11583.804,"text":"報告委員 我這樣說交通部有台灣好行可以協助地方政府但那只是一部分真正的市區的串接它的公共運輸市區公車市政府要想辦法趕快把它建置更完整"},{"start":11584.344,"end":11610.442,"text":"那它的建制的過程當中我們公路局其實也在經費上給予很多的補助那我們也希望地方政府要積極一點不可能全部都靠我觀光署的台灣好行去串接到所有例如說舉例來講台中不可能所有都是透過我台灣好行來串接那台中市政府它的這個公共運輸跟它的客運系統自己要建制起來如果未來我可以的時候我也要請交通部來幫忙台中市政府可以嗎"},{"start":11611.092,"end":11621.035,"text":"可以啊可以啊我們到現在你一定可以的啦未來有機會的話我們一定在觀光署的部分台灣好險還是會做所以我們現在可以開始來討論啊部長你也是台中人啊對不對那我是台中在地的立委那我也想為台中這個城市做更多事那我們發現的這些問題我們可不可以先開始來進行我們如何來解決如何來改善"},{"start":11635.419,"end":11661.355,"text":"而且觀光跟交通是唇齒相依而且不是國人的人身安全而已還是國際觀光客對台灣對台中的一個印象我們的城市印象不能是不安全的台灣也不能讓國際觀光客認為是不安全的對不對所以拜託部長要全力支持台中那未來我們一起合作好不好以上謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":11669.042,"end":11691.788,"text":"好 謝謝喔部長我那一關的T-pass要結合景點就是這樣啦你來當宿客一下啦現在我們高雄做得不錯我們高雄好玩卡做得不錯其他的城市也可以參加啦T-pass可以再加上那個景點你來跟觀光署再結合一下啦所以我已經建議再倒你來參加一下好 謝謝我們請邱董法院"},{"start":11705.137,"end":11708.32,"text":"謝謝主席 主席請交通部陳部長請部長部長好 本席先問你一個先問部長一個生活化的問題部長小時候有玩過電子遊戲器嗎有啊有玩過嗎那如果現在有機會再玩你認為現在玩起來的反應會跟小時候比起來會是一樣的嗎會差很多會差很多我跟我的兒子玩起來我的反應變很慢"},{"start":11733.14,"end":11743.503,"text":"反應變很慢因為根據我們德國海德堡大學研究分析哈佛資料庫他們將近120萬名10到80歲的受試者反應結果發現10到16歲的反應最快那30歲之後開始變慢那60歲之後明顯是最明顯的變慢也是"},{"start":11752.645,"end":11776.429,"text":"人體自然老化的科學現象之一啊我們的交通也受到這樣的影響也點出一個迫切需要我們來關注的公共安全問題高齡駕駛那部長您本身應該也有駕照吧有駕照也實際開過車那您是否認同當我們在道路上開車的時候突發狀況的應變反應是維護行車安全的關鍵因素之一沒錯嘛那我們來看"},{"start":11776.889,"end":11802.936,"text":"就在上個月在桃園巴德發生一起令人痛心的死亡車禍一名67歲的駕駛他疑似身體不適那因為手部劇烈抖動然後沒辦法控制方向盤事故當下完全沒有減速車輛爆衝釀成一死二傷的悲劇那這樣的事件也不是個案所以請警察部長在高齡化社會中我們對於高齡駕駛者的身體他的狀態變化還有持續駕駛的資格我們有沒有足夠的檢核機制"},{"start":11804.376,"end":11820.321,"text":"報告委員我們針對這個75歲以上有這個換照的機制啦那換照的過程當中我們就會做檢核認知功能的這個檢測我們都會來做所以75歲以上這個部分那其中包含了視力嘛然後還有聽力還有操作能力"},{"start":11821.381,"end":11849.394,"text":"還有一些協調就是認知功能測驗裡面就是說因為他要注意他的腦部跟手眼的協調所以他要有空間時間的相關的一些測驗我們本身交通部跟衛生局他們有沒有我們有沒有來做聯訪機制目前大概就是說有一些其實這個衛福部的一些資料其實我們現在已經有跟他們在討論說要做相關的一個戒節"},{"start":11850.177,"end":11862.459,"text":"OK 好了解那我們接下來看到另外一份數據那數據顯示最多事故的他不是75歲以上他是65歲到74歲那是不是代表我們高齡駕駛的管理起點訂的有點太晚了"},{"start":11865.649,"end":11892.01,"text":"因為這個現象他也間接的說明75歲後強制換照的制度他也確實在程度上提高了風險這個部分我大概跟委員報告一下現在委員提到的這個課題大概就是體格適性駕駛的一個課題那體格適性駕駛的課題基本上分成這個普通駕駛人跟這個職業駕駛人的部分那職業駕駛人這一塊的話三年就要體檢"},{"start":11893.571,"end":11914.611,"text":"這個一次那現在講說這個自用駕駛人的這個部分的話那我們剛剛所提到確實就是說現行這個臨照了之後那在體格的這個部分的話原則上強制的部分是到75歲要這個做適性的一個請教部長一個問題部長你認為我們是不是應該更進一步將這個強制換照的制度往前推進70歲的"},{"start":11915.452,"end":11917.494,"text":"這個部分我們是可以討論因為這個影響的人數其實相當的多那剛剛委員有提供這個數據65歲左右這一段其實還蠻多的但是其實75到84的這一段開車的人數其實相對也是減少"},{"start":11935.835,"end":11952.422,"text":"減少了所以他的事故數當然也是會比較少不過您所提到的65到74的這一段我覺得我們應該可以再更關注一下我們來討論看看看能不能就是往前推到70歲的時候就來開始強制做就是讓這些駕駛者然後回去做"},{"start":11954.705,"end":11971.214,"text":"可是我們來研議這個方面 研議看執行面看要怎麼做因為這個影響的人數其實還蠻多因為同樣是交通工具那大型的職業駕駛他65歲就必須要繳回駕照那一樣一般駕駛他就可以他需要到75歲才開始繳回那再請交通部研議好嗎"},{"start":11972.542,"end":11990.075,"text":"好 那部長我們接著看公務局會宣導高齡駕駛換照制度推出了4支影片那部長您可以看到數字最高的分別是8萬 1.9萬然後還有1.8萬 1.7萬次那每部影片平均1年點閱率都不到1萬5那這樣的政策推廣效果您滿意嗎"},{"start":11991.565,"end":12014.347,"text":"報告委員這個點擊數點閱率我們都希望能夠提高那就看他們做的內容是什麼我不可以說完全滿意因為現在民眾都感覺到說我們的宣導還是不足不過也要跟委員報告就是說我們的宣導的預算其實還真的是蠻有限我們工程做了很多但是我也發現說我們在宣導的經費其實不太足夠"},{"start":12014.667,"end":12027.986,"text":"那今天看到報告交通服務有說要強力加強宣導嗎那也請就是我們的政策不只要做到那也要有效果對要把它做好啦我也在提醒的是要把它做好那部長我們再來看到另外一個"},{"start":12029.451,"end":12055.179,"text":"一個不幸的事故就在本月一日也是一樣桃園八德和平路發生一起重大車禍一輛小客車逆向高速撞上機車造成一名45歲的男騎士當場死亡後座的妻子也多處插傷那經警方調查駕駛者是越南籍的阮興男子他的酒測值是0.49那他早已經就是自台長達7年了那另外同樣兩名乘客也是失聯移工事發後當場逃逸"},{"start":12056.579,"end":12080.966,"text":"那請部長我們看到這封信那這是家屬提供給本席的陳情信那本席想問的是那面對這樣的悲劇到底我們政府要該如何來防毒報告委員失聯移工的部分當然不是交通部來做是 是在移民署來做對 那我們對於道路上面的安全我們要想辦法來維護那交通部有沒有去了解就是這些失聯移工就是他們有取得駕照到底有多少人"},{"start":12082.117,"end":12104.399,"text":"施連移工有駕照嗎?公務員報告 施連移工這個部分因為確實現在我們還沒有跟內政部這邊做相關的借接所以未來如果說這個能夠有借接的話我們比較能夠去比對一下施連移工跟他的一個駕照狀況公務局跟移民署有沒有定期做資料的比對?"},{"start":12106.88,"end":12127.415,"text":"目前就是說我想這個部分的話有這個對接機制嗎這個在移工的資料的部分我們確實現在還沒有所以這就是制度上的漏洞嗎那什麼時候可以把它補起來報告委員我們目前跟移民署正在做借接的這些工作我們會儘速把它借接起來"},{"start":12128.194,"end":12138.758,"text":"是 那請務必要把這個制度上的漏洞補起來我們不希望再看到有這樣的憾事發生移工的部分我們有啦那失聯的移工我們再來商討看要怎麼樣讓他補齊OK 好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝 我們請廖先祥委員"},{"start":12161.431,"end":12168.876,"text":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩我們陳部長請部長我們警政署陳署長陳署長兩位好 今天一個小問題先提啦最近有很多的這個依據我們道路交通安全規則102條的規定那個如果說我們在浩之花的路口有交通指揮人員在指揮的時候那"},{"start":12189.875,"end":12205.121,"text":"這個指揮人員的指示優於號誌這是我們道安交通規則102條的明文規定那現在實務上會有很多民眾檢舉或者是科技執法的一些案件就是通過警方在舉發"},{"start":12206.201,"end":12224.053,"text":"那就會變成說很多民眾都說我會這樣子行使是依據這個警察同仁或者是義交的指揮才做出違反號誌的一些駕駛行為但是被民眾檢舉的時候可能民眾檢舉的影像沒有錄到這個指揮人員"},{"start":12225.174,"end":12242.386,"text":"的指揮或者是我們科技執法沒有拍到這個指揮人員的情況下那這個違規的案件我們警察同仁就會舉發但是我們民眾可能他的行車紀錄器過了什麼他沒有辦法去舉證那這樣子的情況下就會變成說一些駕駛人"},{"start":12244.527,"end":12251.113,"text":"駕駛人的權益受損嘛 因為他是依照指揮 交通指揮人員去指揮那關於這一點啦 我想這是很明確的是我們必須要幫這些駕駛人他的權益去拼犯的部分 我覺得這也沒什麼好討論啦那後續是不是請我們這兩邊喔去 後續去研議一下 針對這類型的交通違規檢舉案件我們怎麼樣去做一些釋法性的"},{"start":12268.428,"end":12276.452,"text":"確認啦就是違規的部分我們是不是要更嚴謹的去檢視這部分那麻煩我們的交通部跟警政署這樣子的樣態去更嚴謹的去檢視駕駛人物違規好不好這兩點以上麻煩謝謝那組長你先回沒關係"},{"start":12284.943,"end":12297.048,"text":"好那部長我今天要跟您也是討論道路交通安全規則那只是我要跟您討論是第99條第一項我們剛剛投影片我們的文字啦那也請我們運安會請我們講出了運研所陳所長"},{"start":12300.97,"end":12315.436,"text":"一統那針對第99條的部分我想先聽我們交通單位的說文解釋我們是怎麼樣子的理解他這樣子的一個條我們看是部長要說明還是你要交給幕僚單位來說明市長來說明一下"},{"start":12319.053,"end":12336.064,"text":"這個部分我大概跟委員報告一下報案規則99條基本上是機車行駛車道的相關的規定那在這個第一項索文裡面就是機車行駛的車道應依標誌標線的規定來行駛那如果沒有標誌標線的話才會有後面通則的一個規定"},{"start":12336.844,"end":12358.841,"text":"那所以就是說這條的規定為什麼會有後面通則的規定就是說可能基於行政成本或等等的部分的話沒有就是說在每條道路沒有辦法去畫標示標線而且這個交通環境比較單純的情況之下不需要特別用標示標線來做處理的時候所以才會有後面的通則規定那目前以"},{"start":12359.721,"end":12386.947,"text":"國內的一個這個情況的話大概就是說像都會區的話大概所有大陸的車道大概這個對於這個不管是汽車或機車使用的車道大概都透過標誌標線的一個方式來所以有標誌標線就是依標誌標線在規範嘛那假設我們現在有三個車道嘛那如果說三個車道他都沒有做進行機車的標示那機車行駛在最內側的車道"},{"start":12388.487,"end":12417.332,"text":"他到底有沒有違規跟這個這一個我也報告一下目前大概就是說如果說這個三個這個車道的話然後都沒有標示這個進行機車就是他他沒有標誌或者是標限規定你不能騎機車嗎沒有進行機車的話基本上機車應該都可以這個行駛可以行駛沒有沒有標誌標限的情況下那他沒有特別所寫禁止的話那原則上"},{"start":12417.972,"end":12437.002,"text":"就是可以的嗎但是現在大概就是三個車道以上的話那大部分大概都那些車道大概都會化進行機車道好沒關係我講的就是剛剛我問的就是如果三個車道的話那如果說都沒有標籤進行機車的話原則上機車行駛每個車道他都是沒有違規的對不對"},{"start":12439.444,"end":12448.496,"text":"後面還有這個第二款的部分還有這個快慢車道的一個這個對如果說有快慢車道那當然慢車道他也會是一個樣態嘛好那"},{"start":12450.686,"end":12466.391,"text":"就這樣的情況下來說我們的地方政府他要怎麼的來看這個解釋我們的道安交通規則的第99條他是給地方政府去畫這個標誌標線的一個依據還是給我們機車駕駛行駛的一個參考的一個準則"},{"start":12471.991,"end":12501.418,"text":"跟委員報告99條基本上是駕駛人遵守的規定並不是道路車道畫色配置的這個原則那所以才會講說機車行駛的車道就要看標誌標線而這個標誌標線基本上就是地方道路主管機關基於車道就是車流的組成然後車種的組成他要去劃分這些車道要如何所以我們機車騎士可以很明確的就是依照現況來看如果說沒有禁止就是可以嘛我們可以這樣理解沒有禁止就是理解"},{"start":12501.798,"end":12529.979,"text":"那我們的機車歧視那我們的道安交通規則它既然是給我們機車歧視看了的話那所以我們常常在我不知道在每個縣市怎麼樣至少在新北市或者甚至是我們交通部的公路局的地方交通單位常常會把道路交通安全規則第99條這一條規定搬出來說因為我們道交規的第99條的第一條下面這個未劃分快慢車道或者自己快慢車道"},{"start":12531.181,"end":12551.3,"text":"反正就是外側兩個車道是可以行機車其他的不能行駛機車地方政府或是我們甚至自己的公路局常常會拿這條規定來說所以我們必須要進行機車那他們這樣子的說法我們交通部可不可以明確的在這邊明確的告知"},{"start":12552.438,"end":12566.19,"text":"明確的告知我們道安交通規則第99條是給機車駕駛人行駛遵循的並不是對地方的交通的地方的政府或者是交通單位去會設交通標誌標線的一個準則"},{"start":12568.212,"end":12587.313,"text":"可不可以這樣做一個宣示報告員道路交通安全規則是給駕駛人看的我相信地方政府也都理解他不可能不理解那過去交通部其實這樣子的函已經發過好多次了那現在地方政府他還是依據他的這個因地制宜在劃設"},{"start":12588.314,"end":12608.215,"text":"那他就劃設有他的理由啦這個我們不會去反對但是他說的理由不能夠拿道路交通安全規程拿出來當理由對不對你剛剛希望我們來函釋嘛這個部分已經函釋好幾次了好沒關係那部長其實不只地方政府包括我們自己的公路局在劃設標線的時候也常常會有拿出我們第99條的規定來說內設不行他"},{"start":12611.698,"end":12635.75,"text":"我們當然各案依照各案適不適合進行機車可以討論但是不可以拿第99條來說當作一個不化車進行機車的理由我們交通部內部啦像公路局這個我們好溝通我們就希望公路局就不要拿這個當理由那但是地方政府我們之前好那拜託我們部長那可不可以我們再一次含釋給地方政府跟我們的公路單位自己的公路局那副本也可能也給我們委員"},{"start":12636.81,"end":12651.44,"text":"那以後如果說地方政府很明確又把這條拿出來的話那至少我有一個交通部的一個函式或公文來跟地方政府講不要再拿道路交通安全規定99條來搪塞了可不可以好我就麻煩部長好謝謝各位謝謝委員謝謝我們請莊嘉斌委員"},{"start":12674.325,"end":12692.019,"text":"主席在場的委員先進列席的政務機關所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們交通部陳部長和公路局的陳局長那也麻煩請正署交通組的陳組長請三層都準備三位都姓陳部長 局長 組長"},{"start":12696.529,"end":12724.984,"text":"部長好局長好還有組長好慢慢來那麼首先謝謝部長上次質詢關於地方的交通建設您馬上有指示同仁來垂詢關心如何辦理那接下來我的標題是改善道路建設降低交通事故非督的用路安全有賴中央挹注我們來看一下部長你看一下我們評論的交通事故的死傷數居然只遜於台中台南然後還排第三"},{"start":12727.824,"end":12736.818,"text":"這個還不低於北北桃都會圈我們113年去年每10萬人的史上還第三高您覺得什麼原因"},{"start":12738.767,"end":12759.412,"text":"報告委員 屏東因為它的鄉村相對是比較多的啦然後我們的老人家其實他要移動的時候他的公共運輸的量體也可能不太夠所以您認為是汽車的事故還是機車的造車事故造成的傷亡多要不要請組長告訴一下部長通常是機車 機車會比較多我們屏東是機車多還是汽車通常是機車會比較多吧這個是不是這樣其實屏東的老"},{"start":12764.353,"end":12784.745,"text":"年長者的案件也蠻多的是好謝謝謝謝部長的關心表示部長非常的了解我們來看一下為什麼我們會提到機車呢你看一般的十字路口如果說像我們平地方上常常有大型的連結車如果路口的路弧缺乏不夠或者缺乏喇叭彎他會跑到了"},{"start":12786.001,"end":12802.477,"text":"交錯的對向車道是不是這樣子那這樣是誰受害很多時候就是內輪差的機車或是對岸的等候的機車騎士嘛所以是不是我們未來道路在拓寬的時候這些標線要考慮到大型車的內輪差那您覺得地方政府有沒有辦法做到這個"},{"start":12806.207,"end":12823.467,"text":"報告員如果內輪叉的標線也要做下去的話那個應該寬度會很寬我的意思是說就是路幅要足夠啦再交叉路幅是不是這樣那因為地方政府他會負責道路的用地徵收但是我們很多的工程建設機會需要中央支持部長要不要幫忙來考慮一下"},{"start":12824.472,"end":12848.39,"text":"可以 這個我們可以來思考好 那我們來看一下再舉例截角的問題這個可以對 那像道路問題出在哪裡呢這是在我們停止線已經內縮但是沒有設置截角路寬 這個是路寬不符這兩車道交會車的時候常常會發生事故所以我們的一般非都的鄉間道路也常常出現路符不夠那一旦出事是怎麼樣是不是大車及小車"},{"start":12849.953,"end":12861.988,"text":"那往下看所以呢包括路寬不夠會倒成大車及小車所以這種情況之下真的我們的道路交通安全需要有效的道路建設來支持部長同意嗎"},{"start":12863.238,"end":12887.823,"text":"同意好那尤其剛剛我在往上一張像這一張因為它鄰近了一個工業區它鄰近了這個工業區所以大型車輛特別多路幅不足的問題大車及小車問題就更加容易發生事故好往下看所以往下所以我們屏東的鄉村道路多設施跟建設不比都市那麼這個我是告訴您這個也是我上星期才去看的"},{"start":12888.503,"end":12915.057,"text":"這邊是台塘地這邊呢是這個往六堆客家文化園區這條路是兩個鄉的一個非常便利的道路你看看您覺得這有可能交會車嗎應該困難很困難嘛所以他是需要拓寬可是拓寬呢就遇到用地取得的問題往下看所以過去我也曾經跟你請教過屏東未來有一個產業園區的擴大設置那你也認同交通路網要一併升級是嗎"},{"start":12916.84,"end":12923.63,"text":"所以是不是除了我們中央支持的屏東科學園區之外其他屬於地方型的工業區也能夠一併來檢討"},{"start":12925.98,"end":12946.711,"text":"這個部分就看地方政府他們怎麼樣解決是所以我的結論就來我們給你看一下這個部分譬如說這是農科這是中央設置的這邊有長治工業區那麼它的瓶頸需要更順暢那所以往下看所以是不是請部長指示公路局協同地方政府就上述的路段了解地方的用路需求可以嗎"},{"start":12948.278,"end":12964.405,"text":"了解這個可以啊那也請交通部協同相關單位去檢討我們屏東各產業園區周邊道路的負載能量必要的時候由中央來協助提升可以嗎可以我們先了解地方政府他的需求啦好謝謝部長謝謝局長也謝謝組長謝謝好謝謝中嘉賓委員現在請林怡瑾委員執行"},{"start":12980.321,"end":12981.766,"text":"謝主席 有請陳部長陳部長"},{"start":12992.175,"end":13011.547,"text":"本席曾經向你們交通部提出書面質詢跟臨時提案要求交通部要盤點全國各路段的合理速限那根據公路局探討就是有一本資料就是探討國內外道路速限訂立原則這個成果報告"},{"start":13012.327,"end":13028.774,"text":"那這份資料其實有許多可以參考的資料可以來做研究那我想我今天就透過這個資料來跟您探討就是科學化的速限調整跟檢討那我想成果報告裡面有指出"},{"start":13029.594,"end":13058.377,"text":"因為台灣的地形多變化然後道路的形態也很多元那有市區啊 郊區啊 山區啊高快速道路等等那所以如果全面統一調整的話那可能反而會造成很多的路段不適用可是報告有說明喔 他說美國 歐洲 日本他們的國家都強調所謂的操作速率速線 速率 操作速率就所謂的八五百分位速率"},{"start":13060.234,"end":13078.404,"text":"部長你剛剛講到85%的速率的意思我不知道 請局長85%的速率他是說在道路上面行駛的車輛大概就85%的車輛大概用就是說那樣子的一個速度低於85% 低於這個速限的速度那這個速限就適合"},{"start":13083.667,"end":13086.23,"text":"同時也根據道路功能、路形、事故紀錄、周邊環境做一些精細的分級然後定期來檢討速限"},{"start":13098.664,"end":13116.631,"text":"所以最後報告是建議說我國應該要針對速限明顯與實際操作速率的落差太大還有事故率偏高還有興建跟改善道路這些重點的路段我們要進行專案的檢討跟"},{"start":13118.152,"end":13142.587,"text":"跟調整所以想要請教部長的是說目前我們針對所謂的這些科學化數據化的這種檢討特定道路的速限我們有沒有什麼樣的規劃跟安排因為既然做出這個報告有沒有根據這個報告做一些執行的規劃跟安排另外就是說我國的道路那麼多樣的樣態那是不是有要細緻化去分級檢討的必要 部長"},{"start":13143.247,"end":13166.316,"text":"我們依據剛剛的研究的結果我們自己所管轄的省道我們全部都有檢視過一遍省道的部分我們有檢視過一遍但是縣市政府他們的檢視可能要透過他們自己的方法下去做那這個部分我們可以把資料提供給縣市政府請縣市政府依據這個原則這個研究的結果也依據我們現在省道的這個檢視的經驗也下去做"},{"start":13167.136,"end":13176.362,"text":"那其實 對 那你們要給縣市政府指引啊或者說你們要發函去給他們讓他們有這樣的指引可以做這個改善的這個依據"},{"start":13178.45,"end":13206.89,"text":"這是一個研究的結果還沒有到指引的程度因為當初其實就是大概在省道上面大概大家對於速限上面也有一些就是說希望檢討所以我們特別做了一個研究然後大概有一些原則那所以透過這原則其實我們自己公務局所主管的所有的省道我們自己做了一些檢討那有一些可以放寬速限的我們都放寬了那相關的這個部分的話我想基本上其實各地方政府他們的交通單位跟"},{"start":13207.31,"end":13219.691,"text":"公務單位其實對相關的原則其實是熟悉的那不過我想我們有更新的一個這個結果的話我想我們會提供給他們好所以這個生活報告都會提供給地方政府"},{"start":13220.507,"end":13244.338,"text":"對 我們會提供給地方政府因為我們台灣現行的一些道路這個速限的制度我們是所謂的設計速率那就是說它其實我們當然有它的歷史背景跟它的基礎可是隨著我們車輛的性能越來越好啊然後道路的設計越來越進步還有國際標準的演進我們部分的路段如果速限還沒有檢討的話確實是造成很多行人的不便"},{"start":13245.098,"end":13265.469,"text":"所以我覺得檢討確實是很必要那我覺得其實可以優先來針對一些像說速限跟實際車流明顯不符的路段或者是說一些事故的熱點我想這些真的要好好的因為人民的感受每天在開車那有的確實速限他就是設的太低"},{"start":13266.249,"end":13287.209,"text":"那你動不動就變成超速那也造成很多民眾的困擾那確實這個路段可能他或許他後面拓寬了可是他出現並沒有去做調整所以這個很多的零零鐘鐘的問題所以是不是企業請中央跟地方政府交通局去做比較好的溝通那讓全國都可以感受到"},{"start":13288.57,"end":13315.731,"text":"是不會中央政府啦因為他們搞不清楚這個地方的這個所謂的這個市道啦縣道是所謂的那個地方政府所訂定的速限所以這部分大部分民眾遇到的道路都是地方政府啦除了省道跟國道以外當然可是他們我覺得他們不是那麼理解速限的訂定是地方政府訂定的他們認為這個可能是中央政府因為他們我接收到的訊息都是這樣所以這部分再請"},{"start":13317.012,"end":13331.286,"text":"我們這個資料會提供給各個地方政府讓他們去做參考那可不可以一個月內就是說我們做一些全面啟動各類型的速限的檢討因為你們說你們所管轄的速限我們的已經檢討完畢而且修正完畢了全部檢討完畢"},{"start":13332.607,"end":13354.541,"text":"那可不可以給我你們檢討完畢的報告上次我們這個報告做完以後我們自己就做了省道的檢討那我想地方道路因為有縣道、市道、鄉道、區道那這些部分的話我想就把我們的相關的好 你們把你們檢討的報告給我好不好就所謂的根據科學化、數據化的報告是是是OK 好 謝謝謝謝部長"},{"start":13361.909,"end":13363.73,"text":"好 謝謝 我們請黃婕蔚言好 謝謝主席 我們請部長請部長"},{"start":13387.693,"end":13412.671,"text":"好部長好昨天高雄的一件大事你們到高雄考察這個我們的航廈嘛那也準備把第一期的計畫準備要端出來了還有這個停車場也動工了那當然是很感謝對我們高雄的照顧但是我還是想要在這邊再提一下關於新的國際機場的事這個我們跟許志傑召委也都非常的積極的在爭取那其實我們陳其邁市長也提了非常多次"},{"start":13413.251,"end":13423.552,"text":"那上一次總質詢的時候我們部長其實也有提到說會準備來進行可行性的相關評估那我不知道說有沒有在準備了期程是什麼"},{"start":13424.38,"end":13446.64,"text":"委員您所指的是24小時的機場嗎沒錯24小時的機場其實過去交通部已經做過12次的研究那地方也非常殷切的需求沒錯希望能夠有24小時的機場所以我們現在交通部也內部也開始請民航局再繼續再做盤點跟研究看有沒有哪一個地方是適合的那目前已經開始在做這個這方面的研討"},{"start":13447.657,"end":13465.297,"text":"好 那我的意思是說那我們這個具體的可行性的評估是有沒有準備要用一個計畫來進行還是說就是你們內部自己的一個討論而已呢報告委員 我們過去做了12次啦我們最近會來啟動新的一次會來啟動新的一次可行性研究"},{"start":13465.737,"end":13477.248,"text":"好 謝謝那我就是希望至少要有一個具體的可行性研究如果真的要往下走的話這件事情非常重要那因為其實還是很多人在說高雄真的有需要一個新機場嗎"},{"start":13479.079,"end":13494.689,"text":"部長認為有需要嗎報告委員我目前看高雄的那個運量一直是在上升的所以我們也才會做這個機場的更新的整建第一期跟第二期的更新總共投入了881我們希望把運量能夠拉到1650萬的這個運量"},{"start":13497.771,"end":13516.415,"text":"那我們就是因為看到這個需求有在所以才會做這件事那如果長期來看的話確實是有需要因為24小時的機場它的好處是對於一些越洋的航班來說會比較方便有時候它會用到宵禁的時間如果你沒有24小時的機場越洋的航班飛過來剛好是宵禁的時間它就會受到限制"},{"start":13517.938,"end":13526.169,"text":"謝謝所以呢高雄有沒有需要一個24小時的新機場有需要非常有需要那我還是再簡單補充是因為其實現在的空貨運的貨的貨量非常需求非常大尤其是在我們南部因為我們現在南科的"},{"start":13534.479,"end":13552.248,"text":"這個產值已經超越主科了然後再加上現在其實我們這邊非常重要的是因為桃園的機場已經飽和了就是所以我們才一直說接下來是不是應該看一下南部這邊的需求然後再加上你看往前看50年就是真的有這個需求"},{"start":13552.748,"end":13581.007,"text":"那另外還有另外一件事情就是第五航權因為其實我們現在高雄的國際機場也有努力的在爭取這件事情那其實最近包括有一個美聯航的高雄到成田對 那我覺得這是一個好的例子那接下來這個第五航權的部分也希望我們部長然後請我們民航軍再多加的協助好 這個我們來努力好 那再來進到這個人本交通的部分我不知道說部長知不知道我們現在台灣的停讓率是多少"},{"start":13581.767,"end":13594.182,"text":"也就是說你看到無號誌的人行穿越道的時候會停下來這樣的停讓率是看到有人還是看到沒人的時候"},{"start":13594.983,"end":13616.237,"text":"去看到有行人的時候市長這邊應該有數字如果按照目前調查看個縣市比如如果在無號字化入口據我們先前調查有些甚至達到100%沒有停讓行人不過大部分是在八九成我還想說我以為你要說百分之百有停讓停讓率百分之百我想說怎麼可能"},{"start":13617.808,"end":13636.098,"text":"百分之百沒有停讓行人無號誌化的路口百分之百沒有停讓行人哇 這個數據聽起來多麼恐怖啊我不是要講就連在日本喔無號誌的行人穿越道的停讓率也只有五成也就是說我們光是要達到五成都還要有一點"},{"start":13637.219,"end":13661.472,"text":"困難那這個就是我們要努力的所以還是希望我們可以透過更多的交通工程的設計看是不是可以讓大家自動的有意識必須要停下來這件事情不然這個停讓率光是你看日本我們以為他們看到行人一定會自動停下來但其實他們計算出來的數據也是只有五成那剛剛其實請問這位是市長"},{"start":13665.095,"end":13682.454,"text":"師長就說了我是百分之百不會停下來有一些路口啦有一些路口沒有好處這個很慘啦那這個部分委員所提醒的就是說工程面的部分是改善了一方面那更重要的其實是駕駛人的習慣啦所以駕駛人的習慣跟教育這才是更重要的"},{"start":13682.754,"end":13697.128,"text":"當然啦當然是雙向進行那當然所以在這邊我也想要再補充一個小的意見就是說我們現在看到很多交通事故啊他的原因可能會寫說是因為可能什麼行人沒有"},{"start":13697.848,"end":13724.33,"text":"行人沒有注意車前的狀況或者是說駕駛人沒有注意道路的狀況左右來車所以造成了車禍的原因但事實上很多原因是因為道路的設計不良就例如說我們一些行人的設施不足甚至是路口的窄幅等等的這些如果交通工程改善了或許能夠去讓去他們不會有這些視線的死角"},{"start":13725.151,"end":13738.544,"text":"所以我是在想說接下來我們在盤點這些交通事故的原因的時候有沒有機會把交通設計不良放進去報告委員這個一直都有一直都有可是很常我們在調地方的車禍的原因"},{"start":13740.666,"end":13758.693,"text":"都會寫說沒有注意來車然後行人或者是駕駛人因為他們自己沒有注意但事實上很多他們視線不良並不是他們自己的我們每次在造勢之後的那個調查都會把那個道路設計也放入其中一個檢討的項目所以這個部分我們會持續滾動來處理"},{"start":13759.793,"end":13781.155,"text":"好 這個真的要拜託那我認為不管怎麼樣我們交通部能做的就是把交通工程的設計做得更好這才是人本交通的根本是好 這個真的要拜託部長那拜託機場我們跟張偉都超級關心的對不對所以真的要拜託我們希望高雄的新的機場有一些新的進度可行性評估報告再拜託部長好 謝謝"},{"start":13788.732,"end":13816.199,"text":"好謝謝部長那個我們希望禁訴啦那個禁訴有可行性報告給我們好我們現在請林國成召委好謝謝主席請交通部陳部長 秦部長黃英貴司長 黃司長 林福山司長 林司長"},{"start":13817.627,"end":13818.109,"text":"還有我們警訊署陳組長陳組長"},{"start":13829.537,"end":13854.094,"text":"好 部長辛苦了其實一向本席對於交通部都持有支持的態度但是該講的我還是會講那我請教一下上一次因為我當主席所以無法親自執行但是我有私面執行我比較在乎的也就是行人專用十項這個政策"},{"start":13855.253,"end":13883.29,"text":"那部長也私底下跟我講你們有開檢討會那我看過全國的這些縣市政府那確實是良幼不起有些是做得積極有些是做得不積極那我不曉得部長你私底下跟我講說要檢討那到底結論是如何報告委員我們不但有檢討我們昨天也有特別針對這件事在道安記者會上面也有做了說明"},{"start":13884.17,"end":13899.245,"text":"那行人早開實相跟行人專用實相一直對我們來講都是一個很重要的政策跟努力的方向所以我們現在有設定一個新的目標我們希望在114年行人專用的實相我們希望能夠做到100"},{"start":13902.328,"end":13916.884,"text":"198處行人專用實相行人早開實相的部分我們也會有一個1558的目標值希望能夠來完成總共加起來就是1700多處我們會做行人早開跟行人專用實相"},{"start":13917.344,"end":13942.046,"text":"是 這個特別提醒部長跟市長啦當然因為六都啊是較為妥當啦那當然其他縣市有必要但是一個是一個重點的地方但是六都還是要推啦這個我特別拜託因為我看我們台北市推得很認真那有學校的地方確實這個效果是"},{"start":13943.767,"end":13967.497,"text":"真的是有效的 不但不塞車然後行人跟車輛他互相的這種禮讓的情況之下交通秩序確實是好的人人行的安全也是受保障所以這點要拜託部長要督促一下來另外一個我想我還是要談我很關心啊"},{"start":13968.197,"end":13984.607,"text":"就是大型車輛車貨比非常之高非常之高因為這個小數據或什麼我們本會其他委員也有點出問題但是我在這裡就特別要提醒部長因為我們從11年到現在連續三年"},{"start":13987.669,"end":14011.144,"text":"預算 我們編列3.3億要去做這些大貨車的這些視野補助啊 主動依靠補助這些等等的計畫 等等喔 那個陳局長 不好意思不好意思 沒碰到跟你有關的所以這個補助是3.3億但是看起來已經實行兩年效果是不髒的"},{"start":14015.171,"end":14030.159,"text":"不但這些大貨車大客車車後還不斷的成長百分之十幾那這代表問題在哪邊到底我們警察機關執行不力或者我們的政策有問題部長你知道這個問題嗎"},{"start":14031.681,"end":14049.241,"text":"報告委員這個部分應該是一個科研的計畫科技研究的一個計畫那實際上落實了多少這個我們應該也還沒有完全去落實到這一點但是我們有想辦法要克服這個問題所以我們在監理面的部分監理的層面我們有努力包含說"},{"start":14050.683,"end":14066.68,"text":"比較高造勢的這個高違規的這個駕駛我們有調訓的工作會把他調回來再做訓練那目前我們在訓練完之後他違規的機率有降了蠻多的啦有86%但是車禍比還是提升啦但車禍比還是提升所以這個還是要加強"},{"start":14067.361,"end":14093.925,"text":"是好啦這個最主要是這樣啦那個主動警系統的政策當然問題很多啦就像使用者的不佳啦或者越專業糟糕這類的東西啊特別司長跟部長可能要了解還有這裡面啊那裡面是操作非常困難所以陳局長可能也要去了解一下所以駕駛人接受率是蠻低的啦"},{"start":14094.045,"end":14114.824,"text":"好那我把這個問題提出來就是要希望我們部裡面特別要去注意這些那當然因為交通的東西啊並非啊並非一朝一夕就可以馬上改變但是有問題要去追蹤要去改進我想政府最大的"},{"start":14116.061,"end":14132.65,"text":"其存在的目的就是有問題解決問題這是很重要所以既然有這個政策但是效果不佳是事實車禍也不斷在其身所以在這個部分要拜託部長責成師長他們要特別去留意這些"},{"start":14134.965,"end":14146.753,"text":"錢開下去好過又不好這樣就換效果所以這個我要特別提醒那另外一個我還要再提醒就是在整個交通部這個部分也就是過勞駕駛的問題"},{"start":14149.975,"end":14167.185,"text":"尤其是刻印的部分我要拜託我們主管師長要特別去針對這個問題因為所有車禍的花生過勞駕駛是非常嚴重的比例非常之高的所以我希望師長"},{"start":14169.995,"end":14189.459,"text":"我常講部長是管政策但是督導也是屬於你所以我把這個問題點出來我希望部長也要特別去留意這些好不好好 另外一個就是自行車也就是單車事故三年來都增加這個問題比較嚴重的當然因為包括戴安全帽"},{"start":14196.541,"end":14218.431,"text":"包括未成年這是非常之多的非常之多所以我還是要拜託這是一個政策既然單車自行車無法去嚇阻跟禁掉但是你最起碼安全要去考慮所以這個包括未成年還有有沒有必要就帶"},{"start":14219.511,"end":14233.985,"text":"在這種自行車的安全帽視同機車的安全帽這個安全所以我記得當初大家在推機車安全帽的時候我就極力支持為什麼可以從車後發生死亡腦震盪"},{"start":14238.171,"end":14257.87,"text":"的事件以後那大大降低啊有待總比沒待好啊所以在這個車子當然年輕人啊小孩子他騎得蠻快的所以這個部分我也要拜託有沒有研究不管是黃師長也好林師長也好研究哪一個法規"},{"start":14259.051,"end":14278.355,"text":"可以在這個部分去加強這樣的話會更完整部長你的看法是 報告委員有佩戴安全帽當然相對會更安全那不過這件事因為牽涉到的層面其實蠻廣的我們來做研議以外也要去收攏一下大概社會大家對這件事情的共識跟想法"},{"start":14278.755,"end":14303.524,"text":"好 所以要特別拜託一個是大貨車 既然補助那要嘛就通通補助就全部要貫徹要嘛 你說實在的就沒有必要再花這種補助那另外一個就那個 自行車的問題少年的問題 戴帽的問題要不要推展到這裡我希望拜託我們去做一個專案研究好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":14311.943,"end":14312.945,"text":"主席麻煩我們的陳部長請部長"},{"start":14335.377,"end":14351.295,"text":"部長午安今天是5月8號嘛那三個禮拜前我有在這邊質詢我們交通部對於我們的慢車的管理政策包含電幅啊電動滑板車在內的行動個人的行動器具規"},{"start":14353.147,"end":14369.845,"text":"的一個執行跟推動情形那我請交通部呢兩個禮拜內提出書面報告回覆我不過部長現在已經幾個禮拜了而且當時事實上是有承諾至今到現在還沒有收到報告不知道部長你能不能掌握到現在進度是什麼"},{"start":14370.225,"end":14390.32,"text":"是 報告委員 如果這個部分還沒有給您回應的話 那是我們的不對 給您抱歉那我回去趕快去追 看什麼時候可以趕快給您報告因為我覺得過去我針對執行 然後稿子收到有時候是叫我讀法條 現在反而稿子都還不給我了我不知道為什麼會有這樣 麻煩江部"},{"start":14390.8,"end":14397.63,"text":"那信守承諾那今天是我們來談人本交通跟交通安全過去這30年我是非常關心這個課題的首先我要針對於我們的宣傳經費"},{"start":14403.206,"end":14430.997,"text":"那這個部分的確這是被刪掉一千兩百萬可是還是有經費預算不過在宣傳的管道跟我們的方式上我是有點意見的比如說過去我們常常看到很多有時候是廠商他根本不懂得交通安全可是他卻要來承辦這樣子的業務的時候有時候活動內容坦白講事實上是跟安全是脫鉤的甚至宣傳的管道也非常重要可是會看到的是什麼"},{"start":14432.316,"end":14457.91,"text":"行人密集活動的場域裡面很少看到像譬如大眾運輸站就很少看到你談人本交通這些相關的觀念我覺得有點可惜所以難怪我們就來看數據也就是說前幾天媒體自己也有報導我想部長應該有看到這個人本交通政策在民間的知曉度非常的低只有高達八成的民眾是不知道"},{"start":14458.67,"end":14477.715,"text":"什麼叫做人本交通啊根本不知道政策內容是什麼我想這也是一個警訊所以部長我知道交通部非常努力也很願意做公眾教育跟宣傳能不能針對這個部分回過頭去看看你委託的廠商到底懂不懂交通安全"},{"start":14478.454,"end":14491.465,"text":"內容上會不會事實上是反向反而對於安全沒有幫助還有一個管道方式是不是應該去思考一下人多密集的地方來做我覺得這部長可不可以說明一下"},{"start":14492.426,"end":14520.905,"text":"是 報告委員兩個部分因為宣導面確實委員一直在希望我們能夠加強也確實應該加強那兩個部分一個部分是執行的層面到底效果好不好內容好不好看然後我們投放的點對不對這個部分我們要來做檢討這個沒有問題包含您在提醒的我們所委託的單位他對於內容到底了不了解這個部分我們會來做檢討那二方面其實因為交通的宣導的面向可以說是非常的多"},{"start":14522.306,"end":14539.302,"text":"對客運業者啦對客運駕駛啦對各個方方面面非常多那我們也希望說預算能夠增加一些不過很可惜我們的預算沒有辦法增加被刪以外也被動那每次只要提到說我們宣傳預算要增加大家就意見很多"},{"start":14540.023,"end":14552.491,"text":"那這個部分我們在有限的預算我們盡量把它做好委員您剛剛提醒的我們來把它關注一下該檢討的部分把它檢討修正我覺得尤其你現在講說人本交通可是大家都不知道的話大概你要在民間去推就有點困難"},{"start":14553.681,"end":14567.773,"text":"接下來我們來談一個我想今天報紙上也大家都在看載了也就是大家都很支持我們的行人專用10項支持度有84.7%行人早開10項89.6%這也是為什麼要去推動"},{"start":14575.017,"end":14590.414,"text":"你們報告已經寫很多那媒體也報導很多可是我們也要來看我回頭去看14期的院班方案裡邊我也看到確實交通部有規劃要普設型的號誌燈打算因時因地"},{"start":14591.235,"end":14608.255,"text":"質疑的去調整實質就是那個實質開啟的方式我認為這是很好的一步我也相當支持畢竟有耗制用路人才能夠依循才能夠兼顧效率跟安全不過很好奇的是現在耗制登的普及率如何部長你有沒有掌握數據"},{"start":14609.277,"end":14623.076,"text":"報告委員,其實我們現在有新的綱要,道路交通安全的整體的綱要,那所有地方政府其實有朝這個方向在做,那到底他們的數據上有沒有辦法掌握這個,有嗎?我們有統計這個數據?"},{"start":14624.578,"end":14652.56,"text":"我們再來看 就是部長我也不是要去考你 為難你因為時間緊迫我來不及要可是我手邊上就是17期院班方案的計畫規劃時的統計那時候當時的耗資設置比例真的只能說產息息只有4成除了雙北呢僅基隆跟新竹有超過5成六都只有雙北只有5成以上那除了雙北之外就六都以外的話只有基隆"},{"start":14653.52,"end":14658.865,"text":"和新竹有超過五成其他的市都的狀況都非常的慘那我們就來問囉 剛剛你講說要早開啊 專用啊沒有耗資燈怎麼去推動這些呢這些是要搭配耗資燈的所以我不知道這個有沒有要去考慮啊"},{"start":14670.495,"end":14691.238,"text":"因為你的實相和專用都要考慮耗資的我們會協助地方政府讓他能夠增加這些耗資不只是交通部內政部國土署也在幫忙這件事然後我們一起合作來協助地方政府因為這些的設置大部分是地方政府的權責那我們會協助他們那經費上需要補助我們也都會幫忙"},{"start":14691.578,"end":14705.866,"text":"我說你說要給做得比較好的獎金可是問題是他沒有耗資燈他就沒有用沒辦法去做專用跟找開實相這個我覺得也要去提醒那再來我想部長不知道"},{"start":14706.886,"end":14724.313,"text":"有沒有印象我上次在問是說你會在哪邊你很乾脆的回答是說如果你開車的話會在A那當時的確交通部事實上法令常常在法令規範的時候都對於現實層面事實上是好像沒有"},{"start":14724.973,"end":14741.345,"text":"考量到真實的那個狀況而且我覺得有點獨步全球的狀況為什麼因為今天講人本交通政策那個人本並不是只有講到行人而是所有的用路人那當時修法的時候我就提醒就你們還是按照這樣修就是新條文定義是說"},{"start":14742.265,"end":14765.953,"text":"接下來黃網線通通要進空的狀態可是你去相對看其他國家來看的話他們可以在黃網線然後等待車輛才知道你要過嘛否則我們就在看下一個畫面的時候台灣這種狀況來四邊如果沒有到黃網線誰知道誰要過因為這時候沒有號誌燈誰知道誰要過那就反而是這樣大家就等著那變成是我這個梗圖裡面談的"},{"start":14767.754,"end":14794.311,"text":"敵不動 我不動 大家都不動那就不知道誰 因為沒有號誌燈嘛所以我們再來看到如果這樣子的狀況裡面到底對學童的保護會更好嗎而且法規之間互相自己打架道路交通安全規則第111條裡面第一項就規定說交叉入口 公共汽車招呼這個是不得零停車量可是我們的處罰條例竟然是說可以匯至停車處所"},{"start":14795.552,"end":14810.137,"text":"那我就會擔心說因為加上前一陣子又有入口的那個交通事故事實上對學童來講傷害是比較大的那如果這兩個法規事實上是互為抵觸的時候放在一起的話又不能臨停可是又可以劃停車格"},{"start":14811.218,"end":14827.336,"text":"這不是互相抵觸嗎所以部長這部分是不是可以針對這個去盤點去改善然後去確定否則的話根本沒有辦法幫助尤其事實上我覺得兒少交通事故事實上也是一直我很關心的一個議題那也期待"},{"start":14828.53,"end":14846.261,"text":"部長這邊能夠多著一些力 不好意思我覺得稍微再給我一點時間來再看下一項我覺得交通部有掌握到充足人力跟可是有時候在訂定法規可不可以有自信一點就是像當初在談的時候我們希望事實上是我們的"},{"start":14848.055,"end":14863.25,"text":"所謂也就是行人庇護島是不是可以15到20比照國外那可是好像而且上方因為還要放一些東西所以可以去考慮這樣就最後你們還是按照國土署的他們訂定的法規我覺得如果要"},{"start":14864.386,"end":14879.048,"text":"調整就應該要去調整可能會事實上是比較適合的因為正確的事情的話應該要去全力去推動而不是因為國土署有這樣子的規範而反而是這樣這邊可能是不敢動"},{"start":14880.629,"end":14905.076,"text":"那最後就是我還是希望說是不是在人本交通這邊希望能夠重新檢討宣導那也希望能夠盡速提升我們的行人號誌登錄的普及率還有列管考核還有交通部在遵循意見的時候可不可以多參考國外跟民間團體的意見檢討一下我剛剛講的那個入口周邊的至少10公尺到底要停車還是要"},{"start":14905.566,"end":14918.625,"text":"是讓人家臨庭還是停車格位劃下去我想部長大家都對你有很高的期待因為我們也覺得你來做交通部主政之後真的很多東西有提升我們也期待這部分保障學童安全這一塊再麻煩謝謝趙偉 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":14929.164,"end":14935.767,"text":"好 謝謝因為我們後面還有很多人 所以拜託大家稍微掌握一下時間好 謝謝我們請張雅琳委員現在主席 我們有請部長請部長"},{"start":14955.575,"end":14976.828,"text":"部長好今天也是要來針對人本交通的一些執行的細節想要來跟部長做討論那就是說我知道在看今天的報告我們是有跟教育部來合作針對於各個高中小校甚至到大專我們都有一些安全教育的交通宣導的一些課程跟規劃那我覺得想提供一個建議給部長就是說"},{"start":14980.205,"end":14995.869,"text":"我們現在有非常多這個跟教育部來合作這個交通安全種子的師資培訓研習那這是一個很好的開始但是夏業就是說我們是不是有可能因為這些大學生他們都是可能在20歲的時候18歲的時候就會去考照了對不對"},{"start":14997.85,"end":15027.599,"text":"我們是不是可以讓他更了解兒童的視角是什麼讓他在開車的時候更有一些警覺不是只有說小孩自己要怎麼助力而是每個駕駛人他都應該要去了解所以我在網路上面看到有個團體他們在做這樣子的一個工作坊然後他們也是對大學生做那就會讓大學生更了解說原來小孩子看不到我們是不是有可能把這樣子的體驗課程放在大專學校的安全教育課程裡面呢有沒有可能"},{"start":15028.24,"end":15037.776,"text":"這個部分是很值得參考的一個建議那教育部也應該會做這方面的協助教育部可以簡單回應一下嗎"},{"start":15040.4,"end":15057.529,"text":"跟委員報告部分我想針對委員所提的部分我們會把它納入到我們相關的那個交通安全的研習的部分然後來提供有這樣子的一個體驗的經驗對 因為這個是一個全球城市設計倡議組織他們其實最主要一開始就是北美的交通安全委員會"},{"start":15059.031,"end":15076.472,"text":"開始的就是有關於就是回到從最脆弱的兒童怎麼樣去照顧他們大人應該要做到哪些事情那這個部分詳細的資訊我們也可以再pass給你們好不好謝謝那下一個就是來講就是交通公園今天我們的主席剛好也有來質詢到這一題那我就是繼續下去就是"},{"start":15077.514,"end":15096.916,"text":"據我所知啦齁 全台灣有很多交通公園但是只有這一個是擬真的交通公園也就是說它是真的號誌燈會亮的讓孩子在真實的情境裡面下去學習的但我不確定我的數據是不是正確的所以我不曉得說交通部有沒有掌握我們全台灣有多少的一個交通公園呢"},{"start":15097.216,"end":15125.464,"text":"報告員這一個擬真公園我有去過這個台南的這個我有去過那目前我們有13處的交通公園那真正擬真的可能沒有這麼多那我們現在桃園監理站監理站已經有做了一個擬真的那我們現在在高雄在雲林還有士林士林也就是我們台北的監理站都是在監理站嘛對不對台北都在做我懂那我先確認一件事就是我們在監理站有做但是交通公園擬真的就這個對不對"},{"start":15126.744,"end":15143.189,"text":"那其他的12個都是交通公園其他縣市我們都是補助啦他們是做交通公園但是真正擬真的我目前只有看到這一點好那這部分我就是想要來跟部長爭取我們可不可以有更多的擬真雖然說我們有監理所但是我想要跟部長說明的就是說他怎麼沒有辦法"},{"start":15143.709,"end":15158.974,"text":"你真的部分的您看喔在我們的監理所部分他比較是把一個月來每個月讓大家來預約他比較是像是一個校外教學的課程好然後呢在東京呢其實光一個東京市他就20個"},{"start":15160.955,"end":15186.537,"text":"20個交通公園了那其實去年聯合國也都是在講說讓孩子透過遊戲來學習這些東西的話效果會更好那我們有沒有可能讓交通公園有更多呢因為那個是小孩可能每一天或是每一個禮拜他都可以去的這樣子的學習效果絕對比他一個禮拜或是一個學期甚至一個學期吧老師了不起大家去一次了不起對所以這樣子我們是不是可以來跟各個縣市"},{"start":15188.138,"end":15212.484,"text":"看是要提供什麼樣子的講座補助辦法讓大家都來以現在像左邊這個就是台中泉源公園新竹也有台北也有我們是可不可以以現在幫他upgrade就好讓他變接近擬真了這可不可以做到這個建議我們一定會參考就是說以現有的還有12個沒有擬真的我們就跟縣市政府來溝通有沒有需要怎麼樣的補助可以讓他做得更符合實際道路的現況"},{"start":15213.564,"end":15221.538,"text":"對 因為還有一件事情來 部長您看這一張這也是一個交通公園但是真實的路面上面會有這麼多交通耗製嗎"},{"start":15224.042,"end":15251.064,"text":"不是吧對不對這個是哪一個縣市新北市的新店交通公園他很早期做我覺得我肯定當時大家來做這件事情但是我們是不是可以更優化因為我們最主要交通公園就是幫助孩子在真實的環境下面學會如何的安全過馬路好那這件事情我想大家現場都有笑不太可能有這麼多號誌對不對到底要注意落實還是當心台車不可能所以是不是有可能來提除了我們來"},{"start":15251.744,"end":15277.392,"text":"upgrade之外我們可不可以來跟各縣市的請各縣市的我們這些交通主管機關來協助排列我們現在的交通公園裡面還有沒有哪些要來做調整修正接近我們來跟他們討論看怎麼優化好不好優化的層面我們盡量來協助地方政府好那這部分我們大概什麼時候可以來跟部長再追再下一次的進度呢我們最近是有跟地方政府都有在開道安的聯繫的這個會議啦另外再找"},{"start":15280.015,"end":15303.907,"text":"我們找各縣市來討論大概三個月的時間好不好跟各縣市溝通完畢可以再快一點嗎再快一點 那兩個月的時間好不好好 兩個月 好 謝謝那我最後一個非常簡單的問題 很快好 趙委在看我就是我們有一個全民參與街道改善平台的一個計畫平台我覺得這是一個很好的讓全民一起來參與可是我發現裡面有一些問題"},{"start":15304.927,"end":15330.145,"text":"就是第一個提示有八個案子喔可是有七個案子都有狀況欸而且這七個案子都預期了而且再進去看喔很多案件完全沒有任何的資料欸所以這個平台到底實際上是照理來講他應該要讓民眾知道我提了這個案子之後我的進度是什麼可是好像完全沒有達到這個效果欸可不可以簡單說明一下為什麼這是國土署的一個平台我是不是請國土署好 謝謝"},{"start":15333.46,"end":15353.602,"text":"委員這邊報告因為我們這個是大概半年前先公告地點那現在地方政府大概都還在做規劃跟民眾溝通的階段那如果有申請規劃案的部分我們就會在網路上公開這樣子但是問題是你看嘉義市案件就非常的齊全新竹市是什麼都沒有"},{"start":15355.397,"end":15376.709,"text":"因為新竹書這個案子當地反彈力量很大對 民眾抗議的非常嚴重對 那我想問一下那我們這樣沒關係 我想時間可能有限啦我們會會約時間來詳細的討論好不好因為不能讓這種參與形同虛設嘛 好不好其實我們是想製造大家對話的機會對 可是現在看起來是好像沒有任何進度啊 好不好 謝謝"},{"start":15387.58,"end":15399.387,"text":"謝謝 我們請楊瓊英委員好 謝謝主席 楊瓊發言 邀請部長請部長委員好"},{"start":15412.683,"end":15427.661,"text":"我們繼續討論行人地域改善的議題過去台灣被外媒封為行人地域後來我們草野所有的同仁也好大家一起要求改善"},{"start":15428.041,"end":15449.835,"text":"那我們那今年的死亡率也有數字也有下降但是成效仍舊還不至於我們的一個理想那政府也喊出了2030年的死亡人數要下降50%你認為我們目前的這些的政策措施教育安全的一個宣導"},{"start":15450.915,"end":15470.586,"text":"會不會達到 這是本席 首先要請教的因為我們政府規劃在2025年的時候 死亡人數你是要下降10%但是行人 我特別強調的是 行人死亡人數是要下降到15%2027年是要下降18%跟30%"},{"start":15472.987,"end":15483.473,"text":"所以換句話說跟本席所一直非常在意的行人的這個部分安全本席非常非常的重視喔所以首先想請教部長您的看法"},{"start":15484.733,"end":15513.64,"text":"是 報告委員您所說的這個是我們的目標我們希望能夠達成那過去的一年多來其實全民都很努力包含中央政府跟地方政府也都在努力那目前看起來以今年的數據來看以今年的數據來看我們一到二月目前統計起來的數據看起來是應該是可以達標應該是可以達標就114年整體死亡要下降10%那行人死亡的下降幅度15%這個至少在一到二月的數據看起來"},{"start":15514.56,"end":15534.593,"text":"很好也就是本席說的我們既然定了這個標準但是因應我們目前所總統計似乎還達不到這個完整的理想所以在整個方案方面要怎麼樣去精進我們可以滾動式的去檢討所以本席要請教方法我們來討論方法"},{"start":15536.414,"end":15555.369,"text":"您也宣布了今年會修法祭出更嚴厲的罰則那麼讓未庭讓行人致輕傷起罰的金額由原本的7200塊那麼你們要上調到1.8萬那麼致行人重傷從原本的1.8萬要"},{"start":15557.95,"end":15578.438,"text":"上調到3.6萬的這個金額那吊銷這個駕照的部分呢由原本的3年你們有意要提高這個年限也就是4到5年所以本市要請教因為據報導我們看到是說預估是會在6月份的時候要執行那請教部長"},{"start":15579.138,"end":15600.113,"text":"什麼時候要上路那你們修法的內容因為我們只是側面的了解依照你們修法的這個內容你預估可以評估到怎麼樣的一個成效請說說明報告委員我們在五月會送行政院轉立法院所以在立法的過程當中我們希望六月能夠來落實這件事情"},{"start":15600.413,"end":15626.701,"text":"六月落實 時間點還是在六月份來執行之另外就是說成效的部分其實坦白講我們有很多的面向要去做包含建設也就是設置的工程面教育層面 監理面執法面也是其中一項而已我們這次比較針對的是行川縣也就是斑馬縣上面而且我們的處罰加重是針對已經撞傷人"},{"start":15628.342,"end":15656.416,"text":"或者是已經撞死人的這個罰則那這個部分其實我們認為如果加重的話大家其實是個提醒坦白說用懲罰的方式都只是個提醒告訴大家說這件事很嚴重很好 部長你所說的也就是本席的一個觀念點重罰不是唯一的一個解方你認同重罰不是唯一的解方因此我們要必須相關的配套"},{"start":15657.176,"end":15686.301,"text":"因為道路交通安全的一個管理以及行人環境的一個改善還有標誌保險的一個設置甚至在整個安全教育意識的這個宣導上面去琢磨這非常重要那我們有了這個共識點本席要跟你繼續討論也就是學區限速的這個部分本席上一次也跟你討論過目前因為本席非常的關心我們的學童通勤安全"},{"start":15686.841,"end":15699.597,"text":"就像他上下學的安全我認為下一代的安全是非常的重要也是一個依據程式最重要的KPI非常非常的重要所以本席也一再跟交通部你們來討論過我看到韓國"},{"start":15702.481,"end":15732.021,"text":"他們在學區限速30公里的執行之後呢他們的學童喔他們的學童交通傷亡的大幅下降我看了很感動所以本席要請教台灣我們目前也有這樣的方案而且我們從108年就開始來執行之到現在將近7年我們的成效究竟是如何呢為什麼會這樣子上一次本席問你請教的時候您告訴我這幾十%那現在的進度有增加嗎"},{"start":15732.841,"end":15740.648,"text":"請說明好 報告委員這個部分其實我們都一直希望能夠執行台灣也有相關的法令現在進度如何呢我們也希望是30的這個時數請教現在的進度進展如何呢"},{"start":15744.977,"end":15761.57,"text":"目前在學區的改善的部分我請市長回答跟委員報今年我們是預計是要完成159處的在學區周邊道路的改善當然這裡面也包括有個限速這樣一個政策目前為止是統計只有43處已經完成"},{"start":15763.988,"end":15780.517,"text":"好 部長您聽到了也就是我們還有很大的成長空間上一次告訴我的是大概只有30%左右我希望每一次我質詢的時候都能夠看到一個進展所以因此我要告訴你你既然你的答案"},{"start":15781.557,"end":15808.187,"text":"是不理想的你要怎麼樣有方法去解決所以本席認為你們應該也可以在日後的道安匯報當中列為你的一個考核指標這一個同時你們可以協助指派了專人來協助各方面來落實這個政策你覺得呢報告委員這個沒有錯這是地方政府要做的那我們未來道安匯報裡面也會把它納入"},{"start":15808.387,"end":15837.85,"text":"一定要納入 你同意納入 當然會報所以本席在這邊最後跟你討論的也就是說我們有一致的觀念做法它不是唯一的解決方法所以本席必須要提醒要落實整個學區的安全也應該要有其他的配套比如說在我們學校的路口的300公尺這個範圍你的紅綠燈的設置以及你限速的標誌下坡的部分那麼要設置降速的設置"},{"start":15838.91,"end":15854.784,"text":"道路的標誌以及人行道的一個設置保護措施人行道的寬度要比你車輛的寬度還要更寬嚴禁在學校主要的出入口的地方他不能作為這個停車阻擾了學童的一個通學的安全還有一個"},{"start":15859.568,"end":15884.607,"text":"降低車輛靠近跟兒童間接接觸的一個衝擊這一點非常的重要因為每一個環境的基礎建設是不一致的但是我們絕對不容許這些的道路這些的車輛直接跟我們的孩童直接去衝突直接去接觸這是我非常非常的嚴謹的要求所以本期提出了這幾項也敬請這個部長你認同嗎"},{"start":15887.306,"end":15900.236,"text":"這個我們都很認同都很認同要執行喔好要執行那道路交通安全的你們的這個要放入我們學童安全的這個考核指標之一一起加油謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝我們請李坤城委員"},{"start":15918.634,"end":15921.086,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請交通部陳部長陳部長"},{"start":15928.33,"end":15940.6,"text":"部長好 辛苦了這個我想請教一下就是說針對這個兒童還有青少年交通事故我們來看一下 應該是左手邊這邊這是這個2024年去年的一個數據我們看兒童0到12歲他其實這一個死傷人數是增加的增加了1.5%那雖然是這個少年是13到17歲有降的6.8%"},{"start":15953.03,"end":15972.267,"text":"但是呢 就是在兒童這部分12歲以下的他的這個數據還是呈現這一個死傷人數還是成長那我不曉得說部長或市長這邊有去研究過就是說討論過就是說這兒童的這個交通事故他那個死傷人數他仍然降不下來的原因在哪裡嗎"},{"start":15973.488,"end":16000.878,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們都一直有掌握所以我每次在開這個我們每個月的這個道路安全的這個記者會的時候看到數據也都很關心兒少的部分那兒少的部分有幾個層面一個是有可能他是爸爸媽媽在或者是由別人來在那這個過程當中的安全性其實要想辦法去加強包含安全座椅也好或者是安全帽也好那另外有一些所謂的兒少的部分也包含了少年"},{"start":16001.718,"end":16023.024,"text":"那青少年有一些是因為騎自行車或者是無照騎機車的這個比例其實是相當的高那這個部分我們也特別關注在無照駕駛的部分看要怎麼從學校的層面去輔導他不要做這樣的事那另外就是說我們在罰則上面也希望能夠加重應該說他的監護人也要去注意到這個問題"},{"start":16024.204,"end":16046.78,"text":"因為最主要你說12歲以下的 比如說那當然就是說我會把焦點再放在說在往上學的途中的這個區域我不曉得你們有沒有做過這方面的研究因為剛剛部長是提出很多的因素嘛那如果是在學校周圍這附近你們有沒有做過這個研究跟調查我們有沒有這方面的數據學校附近的受傷比例"},{"start":16047.868,"end":16061.238,"text":"我想說比例可能還在統計不過也跟委員報告基本上我們現在跟國土署也非常重視校園周邊道路的一個改善尤其是那個通學校現在據我了解國土署在今年被要求"},{"start":16062.739,"end":16092.079,"text":"直轄市先從直轄市說每個直轄市有兩個示範區做出來讓做出來以後如果成效會讓其他縣市來效法那此外我們也注意到就是說可能讓小朋友了解說他從他家裡到學校一些通學路徑上的一些潛在的危險地點在哪裡如果經過那邊要注意哪些事項所以我們現在也補助地方政府去拍攝這學校這邊這樣一個通學的一個叫安全影片"},{"start":16092.999,"end":16117.703,"text":"在拍攝過程中我們也希望說學生還有家長跟老師都能夠共同穿希望說拍攝影片讓學生能更了解在通學過程中要注意哪些交安全指示通學從家裡到這個學校的這一段我們希望是安全的不論是去或是回來但是就是說你們不論是提到說有這個示範區或是說有特定的學校的這個"},{"start":16118.303,"end":16133.423,"text":"周邊的這個道路環境的改善我覺得那都有經費有投進去但是我是覺得說那個點太少比如說像我自己三重圍裡你大概有幾間學校他們這一個學校旁邊的這一個人行道或是說接送區其實都做得很好"},{"start":16133.983,"end":16149.309,"text":"但是如果沒有在這個示範區裡面這個前面有進去的話很多還是有學校連這個學校的學生要走出來都沒有一個綠色的一個人行道我們就是說這個你已經沒辦法去做這個人行道我們只能做這個"},{"start":16150.189,"end":16172.694,"text":"路面上我們就畫色 你是屬於綠色人行道的這部分有些都畫不出來 所以我是希望說這個東西不是只有城鄉差距 就是說光是在新北市裡面那其實就是你有示範的 有經費補助的 那真的是做得不錯但是有些學校沒有在這個補助裡面你要讓他畫一條安全的路回家 其實都畫不太出來"},{"start":16173.314,"end":16187.603,"text":"包圍這個部分如果學校有需求地方政府有需求他們可以向中央來申請補助我們都會來協助但是現在就是要看地方政府他們能做的量能到哪裡然後再來就是學校有沒有提出這樣的需求"},{"start":16188.462,"end":16203.187,"text":"有啦其實我們都也是有跟地方政府講啦但是說這個東西就是說當然地方政府也要做但是我是希望說中央的這個經費能夠再多挹注一點啦如果地方政府來申請的話我們大部分都是會協助的好"},{"start":16203.727,"end":16221.382,"text":"不過財化法通過之後可能又是另外一回事了好 那另外一個我再請教就是說就是說我們在2023年道路交通管理罰則這個有把它變得比較這個處罰會比較嚴重但是我看了一下數據2024年的這個行人死傷人數是17162人那當然叫2023年有減少498人然後死亡人數有380人減少至366人"},{"start":16232.091,"end":16249.039,"text":"但是呢我是看這個數據當然就是重罰之下當然數據上面有稍微下降死亡人數稍微下降但是如果要達到你們2030年死亡人數降50%其實還是有一場蠻長的距離要走耶這個你們要怎麼去做改善方方面面該做的事實在是很多"},{"start":16250.62,"end":16269.211,"text":"從工程層面我們要做的各方面就已經非常多教育層面也是得做因為駕駛人他的習慣跟他的觀念然後監理面我們也在努力那還有就是執法面這個執法面大概我們會放在最後我們都希望罰則只是一個提醒希望大家不要去犯到這個罰則"},{"start":16270.091,"end":16298.188,"text":"但是方方面面其實交通部一直都在努力各方面都在努力所以我們在今年的一到二月看到那個整體的這個車禍的死亡人數跟行人的這個死亡人數其實有降到10%整體來說降到10%左右那行人的部分降到15%以下所以這個部分的成效其實初步是有看到的那我們會繼續努力對啊因為這個數據看起來加油的空間還蠻大那我最後再問一個問題"},{"start":16298.988,"end":16307.344,"text":"就是說有關這個地下停車場我們前瞻的這個預算是不是已經到今年就結束了那接下來你們是不是有一個4年60億的這個計畫"},{"start":16310.469,"end":16337.235,"text":"我們目前還要再努力爭取那這到底有沒有列進去這個預算裡面今年還沒有那明年呢我們在爭取因為我們自己像三重就是說至少還有三個停車場上代努力爭取當然中了那現在就是說這個前瞻沒有了然後這四年六十億又不知道說有沒有人確定要拉進去局長能夠確定有拉進去嗎"},{"start":16338.809,"end":16360.802,"text":"就是目前就是已經有報行政院在審查中不過就是還沒有確定但是這個我是覺得有這個需求不是只有我三重或是新北我覺得就是說因為前瞻計畫裡面這個地下停車場興建是一個非常有感的一個政策那我希望說是有感政策能夠延續下去那當然我也會為我自己三重三座地下停車場努力再來爭取當中再麻煩了好謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":16371.892,"end":16396.968,"text":"好謝謝陳培宇陳培宇陳培宇委員不在王美惠王美惠王美惠委員不在我們請土千祺委員好謝謝主席我請我們那個國土署國土署蔡組長請國土署蔡組長"},{"start":16413.303,"end":16438.209,"text":"志祺 會員好 蔡組長 我想請問一下那當然這幾年我們行政院針對我們推動人本交通政策有在強力推動那在本席的選區也有開花結果那在去年7月1號我們內政部國土署有推動一個全民參與街道改善平台那這個案子 組長知道嗎我瞭解"},{"start":16439.269,"end":16465.709,"text":"那這個案子那時候也有在我們的選區陽梅針對中心路人本環境多目標改善工程那個時候有進行上網投票那當然本席也有在跟民眾請大家來針對這部分盡量去投那當然後來也爭取到我們這一梯次的第一名那所以後來這個案子有在進行那後來也針對這個部分"},{"start":16467.27,"end":16486.038,"text":"我們也辦了一場會刊跟一場說明會然後到今年3月的時候也特別邀請我們的路權團體來到服務處那針對負責規劃的桃園市政府來進行對話那把這個人本交通的理念設計在我們的工程裡面"},{"start":16486.698,"end":16501.956,"text":"那可是最主要就是說我們在這個案子通過補助之後其實在地方上也有一些雜音像我們去年通過的時候在10月份辦說明會的時候那有些在地的"},{"start":16502.817,"end":16530.111,"text":"電家因為憂慮這個工程會影響他的生意也對人本交通這個遠景勸缺想像那甚至有些民代還懷疑是網路外地人灌票那當然在這部分進行的時候我開說明會的時候也有跟他們講那當然我們就針對願意施作的部分我們先施工如果沒有爭議我們才會優先來施作"},{"start":16530.871,"end":16551.73,"text":"那今天會講的這一部分就是其實這個部分人本交通當然這理念是很好但是在推動的過程中跟民眾之間可能有很多的地方是需要溝通有很多的疑慮那像這一部分我們對於地方工作坊的部分我們像這部分會針對這個預算會對他們有補助讓他們去協調溝通這部分的問題嗎會"},{"start":16559.122,"end":16586.156,"text":"所以我們本身國土署也針對地方工作坊這部分預算補助是有編列的因為我們在補助工程的貴大設計費用裡面它本來就可以做工作坊經費是可以含在裡面好 所以因為我們是有碰到這樣的問題因為我覺得這個補助施作法是另外一個問題反而溝通協調好像反而是我們所面臨到最大的問題所以希望我們地方工作坊"},{"start":16586.576,"end":16601.966,"text":"把這些疑義喔能夠讓他跟民眾說清楚因為這好的東西有時候沒有講清楚反而會得到一些更負面的阻力所以我也希望說我們在施作的時候這部分也要來編列預算去排除這些問題沒問題 這我們會全力支持"},{"start":16604.127,"end":16630.596,"text":"還有我們全民參與街道改善平台這一部分因為我們當初有講要做已經在設計規劃當中那地方政府也針對目前的工作設計進度可是因為民眾會覺得說從說明會之後也看到我們這個平台當初也很多人去投票後來也有很多的鄉親也很關注可是發現我們這個平台對於一些進度"},{"start":16631.516,"end":16649.12,"text":"好像都沒有去更新是不是這部分可以在平台上稍微注意讓我們有一些進度能夠讓民眾去知道再回去我會加強就是會我們會跟地方政府保持更密切的聯繫把相關的說明會會刊之類的訊息都把它PO上來"},{"start":16649.78,"end":16661.779,"text":"對 因為我們是想說本來已經有設計這個改善平台其實這是很好啦而且我們國土署本身也有這個追蹤機制那所以我們希望這個平台齁能夠"},{"start":16663.015,"end":16686.046,"text":"好好的去使用對於當初有投票還有關心的鄉親我們都能夠適時讓他瞭解我們地方的進度也知道我們政府一直在持續在進行這一部分那希望這部分也來幫我們來好好的瞭解一下因為我們這個中心路我們那時候通過之後我們發現"},{"start":16687.307,"end":16716.627,"text":"在陽梅埔心的中心路通過之後周邊很多的道路很多的里長很多的民眾都覺得這是一個很好的政策而且大家對於人本交通人行道的改善設置都非常的注重所以除了中心路之外現在很多周邊的民眾也要求希望能夠做這個人行道的改善那所以這部分好像我們國土署也有請我們市政府養工處在納入設計是不是"},{"start":16717.927,"end":16737.861,"text":"好 那這部分也感謝我們國土署那也希望持續來幫我們追蹤進行 希望盡快來完成沒問題 我們一定全力協助好 謝謝組長好 謝謝邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉 委員不在"},{"start":16739.978,"end":16760.593,"text":"郵號 郵號 郵號委員不在林楚瑩 林楚瑩 林楚瑩委員不在鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在柴宇 柴宇 柴宇委員不在徐欣盈 徐欣盈 徐欣盈委員不在鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在登記委員經理發言完畢做以下決定"},{"start":16762.017,"end":16782.847,"text":"報告及諮詢完畢委員蘇清泉有號徐清穎所提書面諮詢列入紀錄並刊登公報委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請交通部及相關機關盡速以書面答覆本日會議結束 散會"},{"start":16786.582,"end":16797.865,"text":"這就是三九天的風景阿我老前後,一眼看傻帥,然後就說我要過關了就丟過了等一下,等一下"},{"start":16819.398,"end":16819.418,"text":"好"},{"start":16840.916,"end":16841.697,"text":"感谢观看"}]}},{"id":"16654","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16654","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e1a3f2a9ffa30080490a0be61fea1481814bfadd538e1bbbfdf93bb500e163b015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、國家發展委員會劉主任委員鏡清、勞動部洪部長申翰、銓敘部施部長能傑就「我國如果要設立國家主權基金，中央銀行與政府相關基金（如四大基金等）所扮演的角色為何？」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【5月7日及8日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-08","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-08T08:30:30+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-08T13:03:00+08:00","duration":16350,"影片長度":"04:32:30","委員發言時間":"08:30:30 - 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報告委員會"},{"start":1843.796,"end":1862.151,"text":"報告完後我們繼續繼續開會現在請議事人員宣讀今日議程也拜託各位媒體帥哥美女們給我們開會好不好這是能夠退到你們的席位好不好不要圍在總裁旁邊拜託拜託我們請議事人員幫忙這個維持持續謝謝"},{"start":1869.872,"end":1895.229,"text":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑芝財政部莊部長翠雲中央銀行楊總裁金融國家發展委員會劉竹任委員晉卿勞動部洪部長申翰權序部司部長能潔就我國如何要設立國家主權基金中央銀行與政府相關基金瓜湖四大基金等所扮演的角色為何進行專庭報告並被質詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":1900.333,"end":1921.226,"text":"好這個拜託我們請議事委員維持我們持續請那個媒體的帥哥民運們我們是不是回到你們的位置上我們要開會了現在介紹原例介紹在場的委員與政府的官員我們首先介紹我們今天的"},{"start":1927.318,"end":1943.5,"text":"中央銀行總裁 楊金龍總裁 業務局的謝局長 外匯局的蔡局長經濟研究處的吳處長 秘書處的梁處長 行政院主計總處的陳主計長"},{"start":1947.216,"end":1974.697,"text":"基金預算處的潘處長財政部阮政務次長因為莊部長出國去請假國務署陳署長護稅署宋署長官務署潘署長國務財政署的曾署長財政資訊中心張主任國發會的高副主委"},{"start":1976.498,"end":2003.746,"text":"經濟發展處的邱處長行政院國發基金管理委員會的施副執行秘書下午是葉副執行秘書來出席勞動部李政務次長勞動基金運用局蘇局長全訓部張政務次長公務人員退服基金管理局陳局長"},{"start":2006.973,"end":2021.143,"text":"經理安排邀請了行政院主席總署主席長陳主席長蜀芝財政部的部長莊翠雲中央銀行總裁楊金榮國安會主委劉敬欽勞動部部長"},{"start":2024.565,"end":2040.591,"text":"洪森翰 全巡部司部長就如果要設立國家主權基金中央銀行與政府相關基金如四大基金等所扮演的角色如何"},{"start":2042.336,"end":2063.366,"text":"進行專題報告因為今天這個題目這個央行的角色比較吃重我們請央行的總裁先報告然後其他每個部會等一下每一個相關的部會我們報告兩分鐘央行總裁這邊時間你自己掌握我們盡量簡短請"},{"start":2076.292,"end":2097.338,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 先生今天呈邀前來貴委員會報告我國如果要設立國家主權基金專銀行與政府相關基金如世大基金等所扮演的角色為何專題自感榮幸以下僅就本行業務相關部門提出報告 敬請會事指教"},{"start":2099.287,"end":2112.233,"text":"1基於主權基金的投資目的操作原則及投資標的均與外匯存底不同他國或以專法或以公司法規範主權基金管理機構之設立及運作"},{"start":2116.062,"end":2126.853,"text":"請翻開第二頁二央行對我國設立國家主權基金向來持正面態度主張一定立專法設立獨立的專責之主權基金管理機構"},{"start":2133.612,"end":2151.431,"text":"第三,我國若成立國家主權基金,建立定立專法,由政府權而出資,設立具獨立法人資格的專業管理機構,且明定該機構的營運目標,並於專法制定完善的治理及監理架構,"},{"start":2152.592,"end":2180.98,"text":"使该机构的董事会能确保营运目标与政府政策目标一致并以市场化薪资延展国际专业人才强化该专业管理机构的经营能力第四 三 我国主权基金管理机构之设立资本及其投资资金来源可借鉴亚洲邻近国家的经验为不宜由外汇存抵直接无偿拨用"},{"start":2182.281,"end":2208.022,"text":"第五頁中上央行對於政府成立主權基金持正向態度建立先定立專法設立獨立專責之主權基金管理機構其設立資本及其投資資金來源可借盡亞洲鄰近國家經驗為不宜由外存體直接無償購用以上謝謝各位"},{"start":2212.679,"end":2217.226,"text":"謝謝楊總裁精簡的報告我們下一位請總署的主席長在兩分鐘內報告請按下時間"},{"start":2228.679,"end":2243.841,"text":"主席 各位委員先生女士 大家好那今天應邀來報告我國設立國家主權基金中央銀行以政府世納基金扮演的角色提出報告那這個部分基金的主權基金是由"},{"start":2244.321,"end":2261.193,"text":"國家政府來設立基金的來源主要是國家財政的盈餘還有一個相關的一個政府退休的一個基金那用以長期策略性的投資那國際上主要是主權基金有新加坡挪威和韓國那透過多元投資來獲取長期的利益"},{"start":2261.853,"end":2288.993,"text":"中央銀行的職權主要任務是審度國內經濟金融的動態採行貨幣政策回復國內物價按幣值的穩定還有協助金融的一個安定和經濟的一個發展所以本身在政府世納基金和其投資運用的情形政府世納基金裡面它主要是分別由勞動部和考試院海權序部代管理或者是由勞動部和勞工局"},{"start":2289.213,"end":2311.955,"text":"保業作業基金和中華股份有一線公司所收的民眾存款那四大基金目的是提供勞工和公務人員一個退休的生活保障所以為了要獲取長期穩定收益的目標辦理投資的業務所以勞保基金這個部分勞動局是來擬定資產分配和運用的一個計畫所以今年平均的收益是6.88"},{"start":2313.476,"end":2340.942,"text":"那我國成立國家主權基金的應該取得共識並訂定專法所以主權基金目的在創造更多的財富所以我們長期可提升投資運用的效益但是如果景氣下滑同時面對虧損和擴大的風險所以我們這個部分呢應該取得社會的共識訂定專法建立風險管控的機制和完成的治理架構公開透明有效監督管理基金的一個投資運用以上"},{"start":2342.442,"end":2358.083,"text":"請各位委員先生指教好 謝謝我們現在介紹這場有林德福委員好 現在請財政部的阮次長做總理報告6分鐘"},{"start":2367.216,"end":2391.436,"text":"主席 各位委員先進大家早今天貴委員會邀請相關部會就如果我國要設立國家主權基金中央銀行與政府相關基金所扮演的角色為何提出專案提報告本部請檢要報告如下 敬請指教依據美國等國透過國際貨幣基金組織提出倡議的聖地雅各原則"},{"start":2392.476,"end":2411.316,"text":"將主權基金定義為政府基於總體經濟的特殊目的發起並持有投資基金採取包括投資國外金融資產之各種投資策略投資管理資產以求達成財務目標另外IMF定義"},{"start":2412.037,"end":2434.544,"text":"主權基金為政府所擁有或控制之特殊用途基金或機構以原油、天然氣等能源收入、財政盈餘、預算編列、外匯準備以民營化收入或外來援助等作為資金來源進行海內外投資活動成立主權基金涉及設立目的、制定專法"},{"start":2435.944,"end":2448.952,"text":"監督管理機制 資金來源 主管機關等面向首先須擬各界的共識 審慎考量成立之必要性依照國發會跨部會的言商"},{"start":2449.751,"end":2478.184,"text":"的初步結論 儲錢基金設立的目的有其策略性及特殊性的要求涉及整合各界意見及拟據社會共識且需制定專法調整法制 將根據進行研議成立儲錢基金除需就基金的規模投入財源等審慎規劃之外更需要有掌握產業趨勢金融市場投資與風險管理等專業未來本部將配合行政院及責任之主管"},{"start":2480.341,"end":2481.802,"text":"機關參與政策研議 以上報告 進行執照 謝謝"},{"start":2502.297,"end":2516.488,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進國防會就本會的報告簡要的說明有關於主權基金的定義跟國際的運作概況請大家參閱資料然後第二個我們就說明本會其實奉前"},{"start":2517.528,"end":2539.768,"text":"行政院的指示呢在2023年10月跟11月有邀集相關部會來討論主權基金的這個設置的情況那我有三點結論第一個呢事實上是國內在四大基金還有國發基金已經有類主權基金的機制第二呢是如果四大基金跟國發基金要轉型為主權基金的話"},{"start":2541.169,"end":2565.742,"text":"必須要就現有的這些法規進行修正第三是主權基金的收益波動性較大應該先凝聚社會共識再拒以執行我想卓院長在日前已經表示恆濁現在的國家的財力產業還有國際情勢已經具備主權基金成立的條件然後我們國盼會認為如果主權基金要成立需要考慮四個議題第一個是要確立"},{"start":2569.223,"end":2595.638,"text":"設立的目的是屬於財務型的還是策略型的第二個是資金的規模也應該要確保範圍及財源來兼顧財政的紀律跟穩健的經營第三個主權基金需要仰賴專業管理來確保投資收益所以我們認為必須要建立專業的管理機制所以事實上目前的主權基金的國家韓國挪威等都有專法來設立所以我們認為如果要"},{"start":2598.239,"end":2621.944,"text":"主權基金成立的時候 應制定專法 設立專責主管機關 明定主權基金的設立的目的 資金來源完善治理跟監理機制 以確保主權基金的公開透明並符合政策的目標 以上報告好 謝謝國務卿的高福祝會的進展報告下一位是勞動部的李政務次長 請"},{"start":2631.338,"end":2647.21,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家早感謝各位貴文會邀請本部向各位進行我國如果要設立國家主權基金中央銀行跟政府相關基金如四大基金扮演角色為何做專題報告請各位委員給予指教"},{"start":2647.89,"end":2666.557,"text":"那關於主權基金的定義跟特性前面相關部會有相關說明本部呢在書面報告也有相關的說明那就不再贅述以下僅就本部所管理的新制與舊制勞工退休基金跟勞保基金資金來源、制度特性還有法規規範規定向各位來做報告"},{"start":2669.358,"end":2696.238,"text":"第一有關新制勞工退休金是依照勞工退休金條例來成立是一種確定提撥制每一個勞工都有專屬的退休金帳戶那雇主呢要依勞工薪資每月按月提撥至少6%退休金的金額到勞工的個人帳戶那麼勞工也可以自願提撥1到6%的退休金所以新制退休金的基金來源是勞工雇主提繳退休金"},{"start":2697.498,"end":2717.579,"text":"請翻次頁就職勞工退休金是依照勞基法還有勞工退休金準備金提撥管理辦法成立主要是雇主依勞工薪資總額的2%到15%的範圍按月提繳退休準備金形成勞工退休金資金主要來源是雇主"},{"start":2719.591,"end":2739.482,"text":"請看下一段那勞保基金主要是依勞保條例設立依法是勞僱政府三方分別負擔保費的兩層七層跟一層雖然有一層是不由政府來撥付但主要的來源還是僱主跟勞工那近年呢政府雖然已經有"},{"start":2741.423,"end":2767.797,"text":"透過預算來撥補勞保基金減緩財務的壓力但是呢原則上還仍然不是政府出資成立的基金那綜合以上主權基金是國家所有但新制就制退休金跟勞保基金是來自雇主勞工不是國家所有他的目的主要是為了保障勞工退休生活跟經濟安全跟主權基金以國家投資目的不同"},{"start":2769.138,"end":2794.214,"text":"為維護勞保基金新舊勞工退休金的穩定運作保障勞工的權益本部認為這三個基金不應該作為主權基金的主要來源以上好 謝謝所以各位聽清楚喔這個勞動部的勞退新舊制勞退以及勞保他們認為不適宜拿出來當主權基金的一個資金來源"},{"start":2796.516,"end":2799.559,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生 大家早"},{"start":2818.267,"end":2838.773,"text":"這次的專題報告本部有提出書面報告請各位委員參考那在這裡我有三點口頭的這個扼要的說明那第一點是按照現行的退伏法規以及公務員退休撫恤基金管理條例的相關規定"},{"start":2840.57,"end":2867.889,"text":"本部所屬的退伏基金管理局是以受託人的身份來管理退伏基金那基金所有權的部分是屬於全體參加基金的人所有因此基金的運用就必須要兼顧到安全性、收益性以及流動性以保障退休軍公教同仁的退休輔具的權益那第二點"},{"start":2870.575,"end":2898.374,"text":"就是退府基金等等的相關的政府基金其實它設立都有不同的目的基於各政府基金的投資屬性投資政策以及相關給付義務的不同所以這個案子一定會涉及到各政府基金的運作模式的整體規劃考量以及相關法令的修改所以必須要審慎的去做通盤的考量第三點基金管理局"},{"start":2899.415,"end":2917.111,"text":"是受託管理基金的這個身份所以我們目前針對他的投資策略資產配置以及適用的範圍都定有嚴謹的作業規範並且具以嚴格來遵循所以今天討論到的這個案子"},{"start":2919.363,"end":2945.991,"text":"我們會認為會涉及到各政府基金的整體運作模式以及相關法令的修改以及參加這個基金人員的權益等等的通盤考量所以如果社會有共識那政府的政策方向也很明確那退伏基金在保障我們的公共交通人員權益的前提之下我們就配合政策來辦理 以上"},{"start":2947.732,"end":2967.782,"text":"你把這個講清楚喔 勞動部講得很清楚你們贊不贊成退府基金拿出來當作國家主權基金的基金賴元勞動部是反對 你們贊不贊成講清楚 你這個話講不清楚跟委員報告"},{"start":2971.462,"end":2997.633,"text":"看整個制度的設計啦因為我們退伏基金當然是希望對我們的參加人創造他最大的權益那如果這個機制的設計可以穩健的讓我們多了一個這個等於是投資的管道在安全的前提之下這個算不算國家的錢啊這個算不算國家的錢算不算國家的錢"},{"start":3002.489,"end":3028.145,"text":"我剛剛已經報告了 這個是所有參加基金的人的所以一定要確保我們的這個要講跟沒有講一樣嘛 謝謝謝謝好 報告五位 現在所有的部會所長都已經報告完畢了我們現在開始詢答 做以下的宣布還有剛才還沒有介紹 我們顏光和文雲也到場"},{"start":3032.99,"end":3050.742,"text":"現在開始審討作為現在宣布每位出席委員發言時間8分鐘不要時間延長2分鐘列席委員4分鐘上午10點截止發言登記現在按照登記順序請登記地位的林德武委員咨詢請"},{"start":3065.245,"end":3076.758,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席與會各部會首長還有在座的媒體記者女士先生本院的同仁是不是來請這個楊總裁來 總裁請"},{"start":3092.881,"end":3114.359,"text":"林委員早總裁你好總裁我想請教因為三個月底外貿協會董事長黃志荒在中央廣播電台與東吳大學商學院舉辦的論壇演講時就表示川普2.0為了重建整個世界的秩序以關稅為戰術"},{"start":3117.435,"end":3136.993,"text":"打破現有整個貿易秩序後續會以匯率為戰略來建立新的秩序那總裁對於外界認為川普以關稅匯率的手段試圖來重建美國主導整個世界的秩序請問總裁你認為有這種可能性嗎"},{"start":3141.477,"end":3155.451,"text":"我跟文報告齁剛剛你就說是黃志芳輸出這個董事長這是他個人的看法啦那你認為呢"},{"start":3157.812,"end":3164.375,"text":"我想關稅,關稅現在就是在談嘛只有關稅而已,沒有匯率就對了但是我們在5月1號、5月2號、5月5號我們都澄清了"},{"start":3172.847,"end":3190.423,"text":"我們沒有受到美國的施壓說新台幣要升值所以針對這個主題呢我想委員是不是讓我來有一個澄清再還有一個聲明可以嗎"},{"start":3192.802,"end":3213.95,"text":"好第一個我要澄清的就是說我在5月5號的時候啊因為我要承認我的口才不好所以有些時候呢在答詢的時候啊我會結結巴巴的但是這個結結巴巴不代表說我有藍顏之隱那也不就是說我"},{"start":3218.51,"end":3234.103,"text":"好像是不善於說謊所以呢這個結結巴巴是因為苦才不好而這個跟我說謊或說是藍蓮之影一點關係都沒有所以說你認為那個沒有絕對沒有所以我就說"},{"start":3234.844,"end":3250.633,"text":"我要再澄清我要澄清然後我要另外一個聲明我們5月1號到5月2號到5月5號我們的新聞稿所敘述的都是真實的好 那個總裁因為你已經敘述過了"},{"start":3251.994,"end":3276.719,"text":"那我請教為了建立新的秩序總裁你認為美國又會有哪些我們會面臨有哪些的挑戰我想現在據我了解美國最主要的他現在的重點還是在關稅關稅所以說你認為匯率並不是這個就是美國有對我們沒有 絕對沒有所以我就說一直在澄清嘛"},{"start":3277.239,"end":3303.111,"text":"好 那我再請教因為那個黃志荒董事長表示台灣啦 經濟需要 要是他的觀點啦對啦 需要轉型啦那對外佈局不因此有製造啦 製造業啦還要參與新金融科技產業操作最重要要盡快成立主權基金啦來掌握強而有力的武器以協助這些業者來海外佈局那我請問總裁"},{"start":3305.152,"end":3322.349,"text":"主權基金扮演的角色或功能啊是不是如同黃董事長 黃志芳所說的那麼多元透過主權基金來因應關稅戰 匯率戰是不是就是萬無一失 你的看法呢我個人也是覺得那是他的觀點他的觀點那我請教"},{"start":3324.731,"end":3339.604,"text":"總裁事實上新台幣暴利升值已經引起民眾的恐慌和疑慮甚至於賴總統星期一也親自對外來說明整個匯率飆升的原因強調台灣經濟基本變良好"},{"start":3340.625,"end":3357.556,"text":"並否認台美談判有觸及匯率的議題那呼籲社會理性團結別散播謠言那我請問總裁為什麼匯率飆升政府就要強調經濟的基本面良好呢為什麼我想就是說"},{"start":3359.377,"end":3381.315,"text":"我想包括我個人 我們的新聞稿也都是有在強調說我們的基本面都還算還不錯你看看就是說主計總數第一4月30號它所發布的我們第一季的經濟成長率是調升了一點多現在它是多少呢 是5.37%"},{"start":3383.396,"end":3394.401,"text":"5.37%我覺得就是說以5.37%都比鄰近的國家都好所以講這個就是說是這個基本面良好我覺得這個是我也算是信心喊話的一種啊我請教總裁對面對匯率飆升多數民眾擔心的是就算現在基本面良好"},{"start":3405.746,"end":3421.79,"text":"短期內的未來經濟是否有可能好轉壞的可能那新台幣匯率飆升到底是警訊或者是根本轉壞的催化劑所以說才希望政府提出有效的解決方法以及對策"},{"start":3422.15,"end":3426.832,"text":"我覺得新台幣升到30塊左右的話我們如果說來看看歷史那麼短的時間看看我們就是說在以前的時間事實上我們新台幣Touch到30塊的"},{"start":3443.584,"end":3444.965,"text":"所以我還是要跟委員報告"},{"start":3467.944,"end":3483.643,"text":"短期內啦那個匯率有升有貶那有升有貶他真的是還是很難去預測他很難預測那你如果說我現在在升那說不定有一天他會貶都有可能啊"},{"start":3484.364,"end":3486.125,"text":"我請問總裁你認為光是喊話呼籲社會理性團結別散播謠言就能夠平息民眾對匯率飆升所造成未來不確定性的餘力嗎會不會"},{"start":3514.584,"end":3532.947,"text":"因為因為我們在這個新聞稿也講得很清楚啊就是說因為他的預期的心理非常強二月非常強的時候呢好那時候所以市場會有一個shock但是之後你看看他這個就是說這個那個那個市場的一個負"},{"start":3535.249,"end":3557.471,"text":"他的那個什麼那個非理性的這個負能量呢他就釋放了所以短短兩天你看看他後來這兩天三天他的那個什麼外資市場的供需就去平衡了那央行有沒有更明確的對策能夠指點國人來穩定民心有沒有辦法我想我們還是在呼籲就是說第一個不要就是說就沒有基本"},{"start":3557.811,"end":3575.779,"text":"沒有根據的然後這個就是說我們在第六點我們在5月5號的新聞稿裡面我們的第六點跟第七點都講得很清楚就是說評論市場的評論人員他要節制因為他很容易會導致非理性市場的非理性那我請問總裁"},{"start":3578.54,"end":3597.096,"text":"對於南韓央行的行長表示近期包括韓元在內的亞洲貨幣普遍走強背後原因之一正是美方對各國匯率政策的干預壓力對於這個說法外交部引用韓國媒體的報導來表示國內報導過度的詮釋"},{"start":3603.382,"end":3610.169,"text":"總裁美國對亞洲國家匯率政策的甘於利道外交部為什麼會拿韓國媒體的報導內容來指責我們國內報導過度詮釋這個我不曉得"},{"start":3618.038,"end":3628.921,"text":"我不曉得但是據我了解好像我不曉得外交部的這件事但是好像我們的中經院還有韓國的半島電視台都認為這個翻譯好像有一點出入"},{"start":3638.343,"end":3652.272,"text":"有點出入那基本上呢那個Bank of Korea的那個Governor他怎麼來說這個呢我也不太清楚但是但是我還是要強調的"},{"start":3653.843,"end":3659.388,"text":"就我們來講的話 沒有就你的看法到底國內報導有沒有過度詮釋干預美國干預匯率的政策 依您的看法"},{"start":3673.62,"end":3698.492,"text":"這個就是說我們有沒有我們從那個市場的一個預期心理我們可以看得到就是說這個疫情心理是非常強的那要是說那個總裁如果沒有過度的詮釋外交部為何要替美國施壓整個匯率來護航如果真的要過度詮釋那麼到底造成新台幣匯率短期飆升的元兇到底是誰"},{"start":3699.832,"end":3724.297,"text":"我想我現在還是在講啊你就說禿鷹啊對不對不是說禿鷹啦我還是說市場的預期心理是很強啦因為我們還是在認為是這樣子總裁因為本期在質疑說為什麼只有台灣會市有禿鷹難道其他亞洲國家都沒有嗎我跟委員報告啦就是說事實上其他的國家的會市也有升值啦"},{"start":3724.537,"end":3745.914,"text":"也不是說沒有 也不是說沒有 還是你看他生殖的幅度雖然是沒有比我們大 但是基本上也差沒有多少啦還是那些禿鷹借由美國關稅談判 亞洲國家貨幣穩定度不夠那趁機空手套白狼 咬到肉就我沒有說 就說一定是禿鷹"},{"start":3746.815,"end":3769.42,"text":"我有說是草匯的要進來那我沒有緊盯的插所以媒體也就說就是吐音事實上我也沒有是這個意思你經常說新台幣匯率由市場來決定如果過度的波動央行會進去調節減緩匯率波動弧度那按照央行禮拜二公布四月底整個匯"},{"start":3771.36,"end":3799.117,"text":"就是我們外匯的存底5228.32億美元就是創歷史的新高月增48.1億美元那總裁近期匯率飆升央行基於穩定匯價一方面要達到政策目的一方面又要顧及央行的損益那請問你認為央行外匯存底到底應該繼續增加創新高還是會考量調降外匯存底的規模"},{"start":3800.017,"end":3815.37,"text":"那另外央行最近為穩定匯率的標準會不會從匯率操縱國家的觀察名單來升級為匯率操縱國會不會啊不會啦你很有信心啦對這不會啦"},{"start":3818.533,"end":3842.098,"text":"我是希望說那央行外匯局蔡局長表示外匯存底五千八百多億的美元估算兩天以累計升值兩元來估算外匯外幣兌換損失準備將破兆那雖然央行目前帳面能維持獲利的狀態而且央行持有的外匯部分部位"},{"start":3843.318,"end":3856.143,"text":"只會用準備項目來列記在資產負債表上不會影響央行每個月或每年的損益那本席想請問總裁央行的資產負債表因為匯率波動然後產生數字上的差異你認為外界會怎麼來解讀央行的財務狀況我跟委員報告"},{"start":3870.959,"end":3886.446,"text":"中央銀行的資產負債表非常健全就是這樣子非常健全希望如此我可以私下來跟你說明可以吧好 謝謝林德偉委員質詢下一位請顏光榮委員質詢主席各位理事官員大家早主席有請央行總裁好 這個央行總裁請"},{"start":3911.492,"end":3926.283,"text":"閻委員早總裁早是總裁這個新台幣開啟了這個時速列車的模式瘋狂的升值5月6號以30.280做收那甚至出現到新台幣兌換28元的狀況連網營都進不去"},{"start":3931.207,"end":3950.003,"text":"台灣是出口導向的國家這種過度的生死對我們一點好處都沒有過去央行的態度我們都知道就是主升不主貶但這一次央行卻一反常態已經連續生死好幾天就算央行出手調節生死的狀態也沒有什麼"},{"start":3950.883,"end":3972.714,"text":"變化沒有什麼趨緩那是不是因為跟剛剛這個談判關稅談判有關那你預計這一波的升值會多少我再次再跟委員報告我剛剛有一個澄清有一個聲明也許委員沒有聽到基本上是"},{"start":3974.355,"end":3991.481,"text":"關稅的談判沒有涉及到會議的問題這個我還是要澄清那第二個就是說我也是要建議就是說在我們的新聞稿裡面就是說市場的評論所以我覺得委員的一個"},{"start":3992.967,"end":4009.736,"text":"提問 槌尋我覺得這個是對我們全體都好為了全國的那個出口商 進口商都好但是啊 涉及到這個匯率的問題啊我是不是也可以建議就是說我們委員就是說"},{"start":4011.095,"end":4032.827,"text":"有些時候因為委員沒有在市場上那我們是每天在盯在市場所以我們知道市場的他的敏感度總裁南韓的央行總裁李昌雍他說亞洲各國的貨幣走勢部分原因是因為美國政府施壓我們楊總裁你跟他不同調"},{"start":4033.968,"end":4059.99,"text":"那也是剛剛這個說法嗎我跟委員報告就是說剛剛委員也有另外委員也有講到李昌雍就是他的Governor這個事實上Governor這個事實上有媒體也是說好像是把他翻譯錯了跟他的原意不是這樣子的謝謝總裁我們剛剛對你談判首輪剛剛結束那央行就放手讓新台幣升值"},{"start":4060.47,"end":4081.824,"text":"你也不要就是說是放鎖啦事實上中央議會是事實在調整你們沒有公示也沒有協議然後沒有施壓現在確實是難以相信啦所以我就是還是在我說我還是要再澄清我們5月1號5月2號所以也就是說這兩天是因為市場的預期太強烈了總裁這個你昨天說過了對"},{"start":4087.208,"end":4111.81,"text":"台幣、新台幣不是全球大量流通的貨幣啦最大的莊家就是你就是我們中央銀行那銀行沒有放行對不對要怎麼樣在短時間之內我跟委員報告啦事實上你都說中央銀行是最大的莊家我跟委員報告事實上市場的力量是很大的"},{"start":4112.799,"end":4130.638,"text":"現在市場厲害現在這個跟二三十年以前的事情就完全都不一樣了以前就是中央銀行莊家我們來講啦但是現在就不是了回到這個現況啦過度升值對我國是沒有什麼好處啦我們出口導向嘛對不對那也會因為"},{"start":4132.139,"end":4160.868,"text":"這個進口成本降低然後打壓到國內的產業那這樣子的情況企業面臨獲利下降就會降低成本我跟委員報告會議都是深深扁扁的對啦沒有錯我說這樣大幅的上升嘛大幅的分子那就是說未來包括無薪假財源失業率這些問題一定會接近發生嘛現在就發生了嘛委員現在所說的大部分都是負面的啦但是你也沒有想到就是正面的是什麼"},{"start":4162.949,"end":4175.418,"text":"如果說委員到國外去旅遊,你的購買力就提高了我們有多少時間可以常常去旅遊?你是工作的時間比較多還是旅遊的時間比較多?你是生產的時間多還是消費的時間多?"},{"start":4185.625,"end":4200.502,"text":"學者也提到說這波升值會重演1985年匯率作變造成製造業倒閉的產況近期台幣升值過快對這些企業都造成嚴重衝擊如果持續下去"},{"start":4201.483,"end":4216.298,"text":"會引發這些內需萎縮還有緊急翻轉的風險那央行到底是不是出手央行出手了嗎我跟委員報告啦我要跟委員報告事實上我們的企業他的人性非常強"},{"start":4218.928,"end":4227.274,"text":"從COVID-19之後到2024年我們的經濟成長率都比其他國家都好台企我們這些台灣的企業很強所以就讓他們自己去面對我還是在強調說匯率是有生來源"},{"start":4241.977,"end":4256.485,"text":"董事長 總裁 你在這個崗位對不對 該出手就出手我們專案銀行會盡我們的執著來維持市場的秩序所以說該出手就出手對 會 會那個委員 你的聲音非常好對 穩定金融 這就是我們的責任嘛 是不是這樣是是是 沒有錯 沒有錯對啦 對啦 好啦 那個總裁請回好不好好 謝謝好 那個主席有請那個國發會高副主委"},{"start":4283.163,"end":4299.034,"text":"我們雖然還沒有成立主權基金但是政府基金也有類似的功能那勞保、勞退、國民年金還有退伏基金沒有主權基金之名但有主權基金之實那國發基金也有類似的功能"},{"start":4299.975,"end":4304.736,"text":"國發會在2016年間已經提出新來幣1000億設立國發基金政府針對想要從事轉型、結構改造、併購等可誘發新投資行為的企業注資副主委你認為說國發基金是否有可能轉型為主權基金簡單的說明好不好"},{"start":4322.981,"end":4343.368,"text":"我想國發基金要轉型為主權基金因為國發基金是按照產創條例設立的那產創條例第29條事實上就是我們要從事產業的創新價值這一點基本上是符合所謂的主權基金裡面的所謂策略性投資為目的的可是因為它不以盈利為目的所以不符合所謂的財務型的主權基金"},{"start":4344.949,"end":4371.096,"text":"那第二個呢就是說我們國發基金的資金來源是國庫撥款跟作業盈餘的循環運用那這一塊呢就會受限在主權基金就如果主權基金金額要很大的話那這一塊如果由國庫撥款這一塊可能就會盈餘這個就不夠所以不同的國家主權基金設立的時候他有不同的法源依據啊所以說像我們就是像我們的這個我們剛剛提到的"},{"start":4375.974,"end":4388.563,"text":"這些也都要通過預算法、中央營養法或者是公司法、專法這些來設立所以一些學者的看法就是說多數民主化程度比較高的國家會設立專法來規範主權機制的管理"},{"start":4392.586,"end":4414.546,"text":"法律的明確規定讓各機關之間的這個合作跟分工啦對不對那如果要設立主權基金也可以選擇用外匯存底或者是現有的政府基金來進行轉型那因為有不同的法源依據跟主管部門所以如果沒有明確的法律依據實在是難以實現就像妳剛剛提到的有些是從"},{"start":4417.21,"end":4428.966,"text":"這個稅收盈餘去做一個提撥那要設立主權基金應該要制定專門的法律來規範所以這個你也同意嗎是我同意委員的意見好那如果是這樣子的話我們"},{"start":4431.83,"end":4444.819,"text":"主權基金的本質是盈利就是有不同的目的有的基金是所謂財務型的有些是策略型的投資重點就是獲利他的運作也需要具備一個相當高的獨立性如果主權基金"},{"start":4453.425,"end":4472.908,"text":"有時候如果受到政治因素的干擾或者是外交因素那這樣子的話有外交利益或者是政治目的的這樣子來影響他會讓這個主權基金變成說沒有辦法去獨立兼具他的獨立兼具他的市場的一個投資的目的跟標的"},{"start":4473.709,"end":4498.045,"text":"所以他必須要有完善的治理跟建立的價格尤其我國啦我國在國際舞台上處境就非常特殊不管是在外交上面面臨的一些挑戰或者是在政治上的這些會受到一些干涉外交的干涉都有那選擇因為這樣子外交的干涉所以我們去選擇某些國家或者是企業來做投資對象"},{"start":4499.826,"end":4523.574,"text":"所以這些考量就會跟純粹的一個財務利益互相衝突跟其他國家新加坡的這些這些一個主權基金就不一樣了我想我們可以試我們國內我們自己的情況我們來設定我們設立的部分能夠保持主權基金的專業性跟長期發展這最重要好不好是好謝謝副主委謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":4553.479,"end":4567.262,"text":"請麥思白委員質詢謝謝主席以及各位先進有請央行的楊總裁以及國發會的高副主委有請楊總裁高副主委"},{"start":4576.647,"end":4594.052,"text":"兩位長官好 我就請教剛才兩位長官都有提到好像特別是國發基金這個國會你也是主張跟楊總裁講的一樣還有我們請財政部的次長一起來"},{"start":4595.697,"end":4610.354,"text":"就是主權基金應該是政府出錢的所以國發基金其實很適合來成立主權基金這個總裁同意嗎"},{"start":4612.556,"end":4617.277,"text":"主權基金的規模通常會比較大所以我們用國庫撥款跟作業營運來循環運用這一點不夠主權基金很重要就是專業的管理經濟"},{"start":4633.263,"end":4662.597,"text":"所以我們的人員聘用跟薪資我們目前國發基金是要符合公務人員的任用法所以這個可能也會受限財政部啊如果這個成立因為大家現在好像一直有這個聲音說成立國家主權基金了財政部一天把它挑起來怎麼樣財政部急啊這個可能還要再討論啦基本上就是有關這個裁員的這一部分當然央行是有一些建議比如說"},{"start":4663.637,"end":4674.247,"text":"有財政部發債 或者是財政部出資成立 或者是財政部委託來經營等等就發行公債來講 現在目前我們的公債法規定只有兩種一種是假種公債 只是用來貼補財政收支差短"},{"start":4687.139,"end":4702.406,"text":"那另外一種公債是作為資產性的財源那如果是說要在成立主權基金要透過發債的方式的話那一定要透過專案的立法充分的討論而且要取得各界的共識"},{"start":4703.579,"end":4729.138,"text":"對我就問你了因為總裁一直反對這個因為現在很多人在打他主意要撥外匯存底來成立這個主權基金他強調今天報告也強調他反對無償使用外匯存底來成立主權基金要的話就產生不你要去發債就發債你要發債你去發債政府的錢成立主權基金"},{"start":4730.198,"end":4745.949,"text":"國外基金金額太少而且因為我們在講城鎮不入發債也發太少了要是多發一點也不是壞事 台灣有錢嗎發債我們目前就是依照公債法的規定來發債可不可以發債成立主權基金"},{"start":4750.452,"end":4764.296,"text":"發財主權基金的話我剛才講就是說一定要大家因為股權基金他基本上是創富基金你不用再講了因為我不是在問你你請回總裁啊你們其他兩位都請回"},{"start":4770.875,"end":4788.973,"text":"總理你強調這幾個原則你要堅守到底喔就是反對無償使用立專法財政部最好財政部出錢政府的錢成立你要堅守喔我們是支持你的喔你不要支持你到時候你跑掉了喔"},{"start":4789.694,"end":4814.014,"text":"我們 不可以這樣子喔 你不會跑掉喔委員 事實上呢 我們的一貫的立場都是一直 一路走來都是一樣的不管行政院給你什麼壓力喔好 你剛才講的一句話聽了有一點不知道怎麼講啦我覺得總裁是老實人啦 故意人啦昨天 你剛才講的是什麼一個聲明 一個什麼"},{"start":4815.448,"end":4833.393,"text":"一個商名 一個澄清一個澄清一個商名 對那個我給你另外白話文詮釋就是說你的表達方式也許有些人不滿意但是你很真誠 你很實在 資料很管用這樣對嗎對啦這樣對啦 我要清釋給你清楚對啦 對啦"},{"start":4839.375,"end":4844.619,"text":"我就說我的口才不好嘛但是委員的口才非常好啊所以你看看你幾句話就把我想要說的就想要說出來了所以我非常謝謝你"},{"start":4854.98,"end":4861.066,"text":"這樣說就好啊你不要說你口才不好你說我表達方式大家不一定滿意因為他說我結結巴巴的還有一個就說我是史詩級的結結巴巴他聽了非常害怕"},{"start":4873.789,"end":4883.457,"text":"所以我就說我必須要澄清啊我要這個場合來澄清啊你會不會我覺得我讓他心生害怕那這好像就是說那市場的人士一聽到我的講話大家都很害怕反而那個預期心理會更強烈沒有啊你看後面這邊反而就是整個整個傷亡了啊"},{"start":4902.632,"end":4926.253,"text":"你聽了那些的 不管哪一個台啦 其實這部分人力啦你聽了很生氣是不是我也不是說很生氣 因為我總覺得所以我還在說說 我還必須要做一個澄清就是我們的新聞那我是要請問你 你講話還是有用的啦你講話 當然"},{"start":4928.475,"end":4957.408,"text":"講話完畢你看三十塊就穩下來也不是你講話有用啦是開心你就下手下去了啊就有調節了啊請問有沒有調節沒有調節啊我要跟委員報告就是說疫情心理很強的時候調節是比較是必要的啊對調節是必要的但是比較沒有用但是啊你看看說讓那個價格下來了以後呢你看看我們的調節就變得非常的順利"},{"start":4957.708,"end":4965.895,"text":"那我問你 你是不是外界可以解讀說因為你已經出手了而且你發這麼大的脾氣大概30塊錢可以暫時穩定一段時間可以這樣講嗎"},{"start":4971.203,"end":4975.805,"text":"所以30塊錢應該可以穩定一段時間我沒有發那麼大的脾氣啦我只是說跟市場一個訊息就是說到此為止那個非理性的"},{"start":4997.377,"end":5011.029,"text":"我說非理性的預期到此為止我都查了資料啦我們現在外匯存底多少錢?5800億一天的外匯交易量多少?"},{"start":5016.474,"end":5042.287,"text":"我們一天的外交運量 平常齁 就是說 如果說是大概是20億到30億最多是10億啦 大概25億啦25億 要運付這個Tissue of Cake啊Tissue of Cake 你現在講 吐運到底有沒有吐運我跟委員報告齁 就是說我在那個5月5號的記者會 我是講就是說"},{"start":5044.413,"end":5054.503,"text":"那個草匯的進來 但是他parking在那邊那什麼意思所以我就說 有一點類似那個什麼 類似禿鷹的我警惕他 我警告他"},{"start":5061.415,"end":5090.504,"text":"那這樣的話事實上就像委員所說的一樣的我們講了有效有效他就不會就說緊急妄動那當然啊所以最近你看看他最近你看看他那個買鈔都買了好幾百億啊就他進來就說要買股票他就乖乖的買股票不能夠趴在那裡等著台幣升值就不要parking在那邊他說他的目的呢跟他所那個的不一樣那這不好"},{"start":5092.744,"end":5112.809,"text":"都盯得住吧所以總裁啊難怪人家這樣子質疑嘛五千八百多億VS一天二三十億對不對他如果搞怪你馬上開始阻殺就好了"},{"start":5113.809,"end":5139.139,"text":"以前1997年的亞洲金融風暴彭總裁就這樣子啊這樣子接近來給我們阻殺跟他對殺就把他殺掉就好啦是啦我還是謝謝委員的鼓勵我也還是謝謝委員的建議我還沒講完但是我要強調就是所以可見難怪外界會質疑你"},{"start":5141.02,"end":5153.174,"text":"過去你只要那個外匯市場只要台幣一趴你大概就會去拋棄了結果這次這樣三趴四趴你動都不動"},{"start":5155.717,"end":5160.382,"text":"絕對沒有美國的壓力所以就說是因為美國壓力所以外資市場才會做這樣的波動 也不是是因為評論人都說美國施壓 美國一定會怎麼樣怎麼樣結果導致我們的出口商還有外資都有一種恐慌"},{"start":5179.56,"end":5205.366,"text":"特別是我們出口商所以我們的第六點我們就在講啊我們的第六點就要講到就是說如果說他這樣的疫情心理大家都拋的話到最後傷到的是誰傷到他自己啊美國即便沒有施壓啦但最少你心裡有一個壓力你自己有一個壓力因為六月份他們美國要宣布匯率操縱口"},{"start":5207.525,"end":5218.268,"text":"6月份要宣布這個按照道理按照正常的應該是在4月底之前不過到目前為止他還沒有他還沒有所以現在不曉得所以你講到這裡的時候就是說我今天看到媒體媒體就是說到6月底6月的時候我們會被宣布為嚴重的"},{"start":5236.433,"end":5257.798,"text":"匯率操縱國或是後來他標題說嚴重的匯率觀察名單沒有所謂的嚴重不嚴重觀察名單就是觀察名單匯率操縱就是匯率操縱沒有所謂嚴重的就好像特別對我們台灣所設立的沒有這回事沒有這回事那我覺得時間到了我就問你確定一下"},{"start":5259.895,"end":5277.203,"text":"就是台灣只是被列為觀察民間絕對不會被列為操縱國對不對我們應該這麼說就是說按照以前的標準是那三項我們到目前我們就只有達到"},{"start":5278.644,"end":5289.08,"text":"就經常這樣佔GDP的比重是3%那還有就是說對美國出超過150至於就是匯率的這個部分沒有他又說我們要買貨2%佔GDP的比重沒有"},{"start":5294.026,"end":5322.142,"text":"我只能跟最後一句話就是你在那個三趴那個洞一下子一天漲一塊錢你至少沒有出手主要就是你會擔心被列為匯率操作官我想我都一直這一個原則美國有他的一個法定職責就是說譬如說FED他有法定的職責台灣中英行也有法定職責"},{"start":5323.303,"end":5336.75,"text":"大家就不懂了那幾天你怎麼動都不動沒有說不動就不動沒有沒有我們還要適度調節只是說那時候的回完那時候的預期心理非常的非理性而且非常強就這樣子"},{"start":5338.991,"end":5365.709,"text":"所以你暫時非理性非理性就是那非理性不過現在就是說喔好那這樣價格下來的又他的那個戶的能量呢已經釋放了所以現在我們在炒賭的話就很順暢我聽你講我請你一次你後面那一句話我看你到底對我沒有說服力啦你五千八百億VS一天二三十億你打不過他笑死人啦我跟委員報告啦"},{"start":5369.511,"end":5378.755,"text":"那個央行 央行的調節也是要有節制啦好 謝謝賴思寶委員質詢接下來請吳秉瑞委員質詢主席麻煩請央行楊總裁有請央行楊總裁"},{"start":5405.849,"end":5431.022,"text":"吳委員早總裁好今天雖然是題目是要研究要成立國發基金與否但是我看今天主題的焦點都在你身上那就是因為大家關心匯率是啦那先講我們今天的主題我看到你的報告裡面有主張說這個不能不贊成由外匯存底來撥但是有幾個方式包括是不是可以發行"},{"start":5432.863,"end":5449.762,"text":"像民間募資或是說像財政部出錢等等幾個你們列個方式其實我覺得那個像民間募資是一個不錯的方法如果大家對於這個政府將來成立的這個專門機構他的投資有信心那民間募資等於是國債嘛"},{"start":5450.763,"end":5477.957,"text":"那至少讓我們現在台灣充沛的這個超額儲蓄或是這個想要投資的金額有地方去啊有很多人還去買美債咧那如果我對中華民國有信心對台灣有信心我買台灣國債也是一個不錯的方法只是以前我們對於這一方面國債這個發行的控制一直很嚴格啊所以這個我覺得這也是一個不錯的方法你們的看法呢"},{"start":5480.092,"end":5499.753,"text":"委員在講這個的時候,我也覺得就是說,如果就我們中央的債務佔ZDP的比重以目前來看的話,差不多是25、29左右而已"},{"start":5500.834,"end":5523.533,"text":"跟其他的國家來比較的話我們說實話我們的財政紀律非常嚴謹嚴謹的意思就是說事實上財政還是有空間的所以如果我這個是專門為國發基金發行要發行國發基金我向民間募資所發行的國債如果你要算入這個債務總量那就"},{"start":5526.363,"end":5542.215,"text":"那就不一定很好用啦因為在馬政府的時代曾經舉借高達百分之三十八點多你知道嗎總共就三千就四十點七而已啊那時候剩下兩二點多個將近三個百分點就"},{"start":5543.191,"end":5569.247,"text":"就破表啦是現在這些年來的努力之後近十幾年來的努力之後現在才降到這25點多的狀況那如果要走國債發行這一個路子是不是這個那一部分的發行的這個公債喔應該不要去記錄這個總債總量裡面為什麼因為那個不是國家國家只是發行之後把你的錢拿來當國發機器"},{"start":5572.79,"end":5592.854,"text":"這個機器它並沒有把它拿去花掉它並不是負債的觀念我是覺得這樣子才會比較有空間那我是贊成這樣的方式不過這個目前只是在研議階段將來離這個要具體成案還有應該還要花很多的心力所以我們就回到現在的熱點上面來談這個規律的問題"},{"start":5595.947,"end":5616.716,"text":"如果單只有兩個國家的貿易因為匯率其實非常的複雜而且是整個世界跟不同國家之間的變動如果單純就國際貿易兩個國家之間的匯率如果是長期的出超國它的貨幣本來就是應該慢慢要升值的"},{"start":5619.218,"end":5643.779,"text":"這個入超國它本來就是貨幣會比較弱勢啦正常狀況是這樣講所以台灣如果長程一直對美國一直加大這個出超 順差然後一直持續的話那台幣的走強是可以預期嘛其實這幾年來喔台幣在周遭國家相對我們的匯率是比較強的我們的幣值也比較強嘛 對不對"},{"start":5645.461,"end":5654.673,"text":"我跟委員報告 就是說委員的分析是沒有錯不過就是說現在決定匯率的因素不是"},{"start":5657.677,"end":5680.056,"text":"不是就貿易的這個部分因為我們也是一直在就是說說明事實上現在的外匯市場我們現在外匯市場那個資金的移動這個部分所佔的比重非常高全球我就跟委員報告全球就是說資金的移動的這種金融帳的這個外匯的交易呢"},{"start":5682.778,"end":5704.785,"text":"所佔的比重超過95%以上是啦 這個是我後面要說的 我說正常如果以長程的理論來講是這樣但是因為因素非常的複雜在央行剛剛講的啊 這個跟基金有關啊全世界這麼大金額的基金這麼多我舉個例子 以前索羅斯曾經要來舉起台幣嘛那也是他用大量的資金"},{"start":5705.565,"end":5723.985,"text":"這基金來 其實個人財富要去撼動匯率那是很困難的但是要有大量的基金來做這種巨額的進入 巨額的離開之前有發生亞洲金融危機不是就是為了匯率的聚集而來的那是大量的金額的移動"},{"start":5726.448,"end":5737.899,"text":"我覺得這次楊朗也注意到說對於這個大筆金額的移動你們有在盯嘛也表達有盯嘛也表達說要跟他溝通嘛講難聽點就要請他喝咖啡嘛你剛剛也有講到你進來如果是為了要買股票"},{"start":5743.945,"end":5768.931,"text":"那我們不反對啊但是你如果進來 parking 在那邊大量一直進來準備要賺會差這個我們就不能同意啦對對沒有錯那個委員謝謝謝謝你在這邊來宣示這一次的問題我想到的是另外的問題因為這一次有非常大的這個預期心理不是只有基金的移動另外還有"},{"start":5770.563,"end":5799.775,"text":"我不知道為什麼有很多人就是對於川普完全就抱著非常懷疑非常不信任認為他做的都是壞事這樣的角度在看待事情所以他就去拿什麼海湖莊園啊什麼新台幣會升值到13.3比1啊他用大麥克指數所謂大麥克指數當然內行人知道他用大麥克指數去認為台幣的這個購買力等於是應該對美金是13.3用這樣的角度來看的話台幣一定會巨幅升值"},{"start":5800.535,"end":5824.503,"text":"就引發了群眾心理這個就某種角度類似銀行的擠兌同一個時間大家都要去領錢同一個時間大家都要去換費就還引起網路塞車我現在想到這當然是金融網路的課題現在有網路銀行已經有三家這個問題不是只有塞車如果你在那邊流量"},{"start":5825.723,"end":5839.174,"text":"很大上次美國倒了幾家銀行尤其是矽谷的銀行就是同一時間大家都是因為網路的關係所有的大公司都是網路立刻把錢轉走等於是"},{"start":5840.526,"end":5858.728,"text":"以前擠兌還要人工去銀行分行排隊領錢你要領大量的錢你要派卡車運鈔車來載現在的網路銀行因為網路的關係我會走多少錢是根本只是一個案件的動作"},{"start":5860.666,"end":5882.499,"text":"所以我是覺得這一方面金融機構要有新的想法面對網路暢通無阻之後如果同時大量的預期行李同時去進行網路的動作的話一方面網路塞車被罵爆了我要辦 辦不到但是如果你都完全順暢的話"},{"start":5884.073,"end":5910.93,"text":"很可能會引起這種災難委員你的分析我非常佩服確實是這樣子就是說像美國的那個最近那個錢搬出去速度之快一樣的就是說你外匯的買賣呢一個訊息呢他就能夠有那個羊群的那個效應大家一窩蜂的確實您的分析是非常正確的"},{"start":5912.55,"end":5939.319,"text":"過去台灣的外匯資料看起來緩升跟急升各有利弊緩升的最大的弊弊是有預期心理所以不會停我不知道你要緩步升到哪裡所以我每天投入都會賺那就導致大家都每天都在玩這個長期而言政府就大失血而且終點在哪裡不知道緩升就緩升的困難"},{"start":5940.239,"end":5967.62,"text":"提升的困難在哪裡呢是做這些外做這些出口的進口的他因為對於這個匯率要多少不清楚他報價很困難所以導致他短期之間的營運困難第二個困難就是說他可能他的避險成本要花很多所以這個其實如果匯率在上漲或是下跌無論是緩跟急喔都各有利弊啦但是你們央行就是要"},{"start":5968.641,"end":5993.284,"text":"很注意這個是不是有惡意性的人為操控譬如說要外大量的基金要來套現要來套利所以要注意防止這個東西是是是 沒有錯沒有錯所以我就覺得應該要讓媒體知道啊其實即生如果是確定進來幣的幣值假設是假設是30點多即生不見得比返生不好欸"},{"start":5994.185,"end":6008.126,"text":"如果我知道現在的幣值從33塊要升到30點多而且是慢慢升的話那我每天進去都賺錢啊是 沒有錯啦所以委員的這個說法我非常贊同這個也就是說為什麼我們在"},{"start":6009.387,"end":6028.126,"text":"我們在禮拜一就5月5號的時候我們出來臨時的記者會那也非常好的就是說立法院就是財委會呢也給我們的這個機會來充分再次的說明再次的澄清好那就加油這個方面的控制就是對於那個"},{"start":6029.327,"end":6040.633,"text":"大量的資金突然之間來突襲的我們還是要有以待之的 小心防備是是是好 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝委員的諮詢下一位請賴慧雲委員諮詢請謝謝主席請央行總裁財政部次長央行總裁財政部委員次長國安會副主委國安會高副主委"},{"start":6064,"end":6080.349,"text":"賴委員早是 三位早安那首先我先跟財政部次長請教一下這個我們2000年開始就是設立的這個國發基金那它的資本額是那個五發基金是吧"},{"start":6084.57,"end":6108.735,"text":"國安基金這個五千億到目前就是說第九次第九次就是進來護盤那我們也知道就是說其實這個是一個非常穩定的一個力量是不是有機會我想再跟你討教一下這個五千億要提高到一兆以前這個是我們有提出這樣子的一個計畫"},{"start":6110.035,"end":6131.345,"text":"那現在的進度怎麼樣?現在事實上基本上因為目前真的是我們的股市的市值比剛成立的時候就增加大概9倍那外資大概本來從大概10幾%到現在就40幾%所以的確是跟過去成立的時候不一樣"},{"start":6132.625,"end":6157.79,"text":"但是我們那個基金一直都是維持在五千億那真正可以用的就只有兩千億所以就操作上真的是有壓力啦有沒有打算提升當然能夠提升的話如果大家有共識可以提升的話那最好事實上就是說我們有提出這樣子的一個計劃案我要知道現在的進度到哪裡"},{"start":6158.933,"end":6183.603,"text":"目前還在溝通的階段那如果有機會我們把它提升到一兆的時候像目前這樣的一個金融狀況就有大筆資金的一個移動它有沒有可能進來就是說不管是在股市還是透過不同的一個方式然後就是穩定國內的一個金融秩序"},{"start":6185.161,"end":6201.289,"text":"基本上我們是當然我們是管股市嘛就穩定股市那穩定股市當然可能會涉及到外資的這個進出這個都會涉及到那基本上這個有關資金的進出這部分還是央行的權責還是央行的權責好市長你請回謝謝"},{"start":6205.211,"end":6230.801,"text":"那總裁我想還是大家還是把這個就是說指向於就是那個國內的金融秩序我們還是要有央行來就是統籌啦那就是說美元的一個就是趨勢就是我們知道在這兩週內它其實就是新台幣大幅的升值那我們看到就是在4月28跟5月"},{"start":6232.082,"end":6247.178,"text":"那個5月5號這兩週甚至就是說在5月2號這個單日的那個調幅還是最高那其實這個也造成了就是說國內就是整個這個金融市場那個就是大地震"},{"start":6247.728,"end":6272.963,"text":"那我們就是說把這幾個這個造成那個台幣的大地震裡頭我們把這幾個因素放進來不管是外資大量的一個流入還是出口商加速的一個結匯還是市場的意氣心理還是央行他你當天你沒有明顯的干預的一個動作那如果這四個因素裡頭總裁你怎麼看這個是"},{"start":6274.343,"end":6297.904,"text":"這四個因素裡頭,你認為這四個因素裡頭最大的原因是什麼?是央行沒有進去?我還剛剛已經有說明了事實上就是說是因為預期薪禮預期薪禮所以那個出口商他的一個拋匯非常的他的供給大幅的增加"},{"start":6299.464,"end":6318.532,"text":"剛好也是因為美國的股市慢慢在恢復所以外資也進來我們台灣為什麼大家會這麼害怕因為大家會有這樣的一個意期心理就是說我們不要去怕鬼"},{"start":6319.792,"end":6344.429,"text":"那我們從1985年到1992年這個美元從一美元換40塊的台幣一美元換25塊的台幣這個其實在這一波裡頭大家震盪也非常大那1987年到1990年那時候都說台灣錢比較多可是短短的8個月在1990年的10月就跌到了股市跌到了2485點"},{"start":6350.273,"end":6371.984,"text":"這個其實讓很多老一輩的台灣人最後這個玩股票玩的是傾家蕩產所以為什麼大家會這麼害怕大家就是有一個義氣的心理啊如果不會的話我跟你講如果經濟不是那麼可怕的話那我們如果從政治的一個角度裡頭那我請教你美國有沒有對我們台灣施壓"},{"start":6372.924,"end":6375.566,"text":"我剛剛就已經有一個一個澄清還有一個所以是你認為是沒有是沒有我們5月1號5月2號5月5號做的那個媒體把那個南韓的一個就是說他的一個大標然後來跟這個你的話做一個很大的對所以我也看到媒體他也就說他"},{"start":6396.42,"end":6400.843,"text":"他就是說是韓國的Governor打我一巴掌確實這個是有點形容過度啦應該是沒有啦沒有這回事所以我總覺得就是說要節制有些時候就是說在報導上要節制啦"},{"start":6419.473,"end":6446.226,"text":"報導上要節制這個是你跟媒體喊話啦好那我們提到了一個認知的一個作戰認知的一個作戰其實我覺得為什麼媒體會誤會你其實我們都一直建議就是說我們參會會其實從去年下半年我們一直就是在關注川普上任的時候的對等關稅的一個議題那像本席也緩緩互互的跟行政院跟央行財政部金管會討論了"},{"start":6447.907,"end":6467.302,"text":"就是建議了就是在質詢裡頭也一直在告訴你們說央行的經濟分析其實我們是很肯定的因為你們每一次的報告其實是做的最詳細的謝謝你們在執行面上相形是弱了一點是不是有機會不要蓋牌"},{"start":6471.586,"end":6489.14,"text":"你不要蓋牌的話是不是會讓你這個蓋牌會讓大家更緊張如果說你透過一個更透明的一個操作方式的話是不是大家這個意氣心裡就可以降低一點我們來改進我們來改進謝謝我們的指教我想啦這個其實在這麼震盪的一個大環境裡頭"},{"start":6495.905,"end":6515.554,"text":"這個大家要看得準的沒有幾個可是我相信你應該是其中會看得準的其中一個因為台灣其實過去20多年來對於外債的一個持有其實已經就是是等級的就是一直跳一直跳一直跳甚至海外的資產累積高達到1.7兆的美元這個1.7兆的美元就是以保險業者佔多"},{"start":6523.337,"end":6545.705,"text":"那保險業者面臨到這麼大的一個困難的時候你怎麼去看待你有什麼好的因應方式呢事實上保險業的這個他的投資投資情況雖然我們中央銀行也有一些的掌握不過這個主要的還是在金管會"},{"start":6547.245,"end":6559.423,"text":"不過根據因為媒體也是有在做這樣的一個報導所以我們也有跟這個金管會做一些的溝通到目前為止我第一個要說的就是說"},{"start":6562.908,"end":6590.594,"text":"第一個事實上我剛剛也講過了新台幣的匯率是在30塊左右事實上前面這個不是第一次如果說這個是第一次的話那麼就是說30塊這個很可怕沒有不會因為前面很長的時間30塊的左右的都很多那時候他也度過了"},{"start":6591.714,"end":6605.962,"text":"是不是那這一次呢大家就說又把他就說那30塊他非常危險所以我就說第一個30塊以前就很多的時候都是30塊左右啊那我請教你"},{"start":6608.663,"end":6630.543,"text":"對於就是台幣在這一波的一個升值你認為是短期的還是是這個中長期的一個趨勢呢所以委員我還是要強調的就是說匯率是第一個它比較難捉摸它有升有貶那我們中央銀行也是不希望我們的市場"},{"start":6634.446,"end":6649.739,"text":"單邊的預期所以基本上我們中央銀行也就希望就是說我們的匯率能夠在一個範圍之內能夠穩定那至於就是說它會怎麼樣它未來會怎麼樣說實在的中央銀行也說不准"},{"start":6650.94,"end":6656.904,"text":"所以我現在要跟委員報告的就是說以目前這一波的強烈的預期心理經過了這幾天我總覺得上一次我們就說應該要到此為止這個非理性的預期希望再到此為止不過這幾天我們觀察的結果我們覺得供需是趨於平衡的"},{"start":6677.361,"end":6682.883,"text":"我們的調節也蠻順暢的所以應該就放心了謝謝總裁主席再給我一分鐘我在針對的就是說後續後續就是說我們要因應川普的一個對等關稅那國防會你有沒有就是說在根本上減輕保險業者的一個匯兌的一個風險"},{"start":6706.929,"end":6721.977,"text":"重點就是說將他們的資金拉回來台灣那其實我們在推動這個兆元投資國家發展的方案的時候這些方案你們有沒有實際做了一些什麼先來看我們看到了沒有看到了一個很具體的"},{"start":6723.417,"end":6745.264,"text":"我跟委員報告一下的確我們就是看到其實我們現在受險業者很多都是去買美債那我們希望這些受險業者有多一些投資的工具也就是說他可以回到台灣來投資我們的公共建設的計畫所以我們現在其實我們有一個那個促穿的一個平台是產官學就是受險業也在裡面"},{"start":6747.285,"end":6775.939,"text":"非常明確的就是國花會就是說你這個整體來講的話我們看不到一些具體的非常具體的一個案例如果我們用一個就是之前納曼台三線它其實很具體就是這七十億裡頭它就把它很明確的就是說用台三線的這個客家主體來做一個花展的話那有沒有機會就是往南部走那南部走的時候我們的中小型移感的一個"},{"start":6776.499,"end":6798.954,"text":"升級還是說我們中小型水庫的一個硬體強化這個都是會就是針對了就是說近期的那個氣候變遷他所帶來的這一這些就是不管是地震還是土石流這些問題都會造成我們非常大的一個需要所以在這裡我要要求央行國發會跟軍管會合作評估是不是"},{"start":6799.614,"end":6814.032,"text":"可能經濟的一個因應經濟的一個情勢跟作為在兩週內以書面的一個回復那就說央行如果強化公開的外匯相關的一個資訊台幣升值的一個趨勢是短期還是中長期那"},{"start":6814.713,"end":6835.257,"text":"我們海外的一個投資是不是因為這樣產生大額的一個賄損但你如何因應是不是禁止上市櫃保險業者就是說在花換股利還是如何積極引導保險業者的一個基金回到台灣投入遲遲都沒有發展的兆元投資國家發展的一個方案"},{"start":6835.777,"end":6850.468,"text":"那在對於台灣地方就是觀光、社宅、交通等等的一個需求一直都是非常高的請中央銀行積極的嚴厲相關的一個規劃好 謝謝主席好 謝謝內委員的質詢現在有請郭國文委員質詢請謝謝主席有請楊總裁跟阮次楊總裁"},{"start":6864.188,"end":6865.214,"text":"還有軟刺 軟刺長 財政部軟刺長"},{"start":6871.497,"end":6897.975,"text":"郭委員早總裁最近辛苦了總裁其實就美元的部分的這個走勢本席曾經在委員會當中就教於您您兩次都斬釘截鐵回答本席說一定是強勢美元但是呢我就這個美元的這一個指數它對照六個國際貨幣的指數加權平均來計算它從川普上任的時候是108目前一路一直走走走走到100喔"},{"start":6899.316,"end":6915.069,"text":"顯然你也預測跟你的這個現在事實的發展有一些不一樣的地方這是第一個那第二個你也常常在引述說這個美國財政部的說法為什麼財政部是財政部啊商業部是商業部啊商業部希望走扁財政部希望走強啊"},{"start":6915.809,"end":6937.652,"text":"那依照這一波下來之後 它還是一直在盤旋在100左右可能因為一個訊息就跑上去 可能因為一個訊息跑下來那我就想要救教 第三次救教於總裁 你認為美元會走強還是走弱所以我剛剛在答覆其他委員的時候 我就說匯率說實在是很難去預測的啦"},{"start":6938.493,"end":6957.237,"text":"沒有不好意思可是你上次講了斬釘截鐵沒有沒有沒有我剛剛上次的講法是3月13號我上次的講法是說美國的財政部呢都每一個財政部的部長都希望強烈去年10月我改天掉袋子給你看我跟你argue這個沒意思啦去年10月我待會事後給媒體你斬釘截鐵會說左強"},{"start":6960.158,"end":6984.856,"text":"為什麼問這個 這個跟匯率有所相關那這一波的匯率來說的話我也對照你的臉書上面來看我們是急升到8.26然後日本是緩升到8.99那緩升跟急升之間結果還是相同那為什麼我們突然之間急升呢我不曉得你有沒有想過這個原因但是你有講出來幾個一個可能性"},{"start":6985.316,"end":7002.207,"text":"第一個當然就是外資匯入買股第二個是進出口商拋售美元第三個就是所謂的熱錢跟禿鷹可是我想這些你現在的說法都是一些貨幣因素可是與其心理應該是心理因素我抓兩個東西 總裁"},{"start":7004.488,"end":7021.454,"text":"我認為貨幣因素當中的炒匯突入因當你講這個或許有這個可能停留過久但我就就教於你還有兩個可能性會造成這個預期心理第一個也就是廣場協議的部分1.0可能會產生2.0的版本你是到5月初才說嘛對不對"},{"start":7024.584,"end":7039.851,"text":"因為我一直聽到你是五月出台書但是這個1.0的這個印象對台灣人來說其實衝擊實在太大了除了日本之外就是我們嘛這是第一個我覺得你的表態跟說明太晚"},{"start":7040.151,"end":7055.659,"text":"因為大家不是所有人對整體經濟都對你這麼熟悉嗎這是第一個第二個呢有人提到所謂的這一個那個經濟學人的大麥克指數的時候直接抵明台灣會升值到13.3的時候老師說我沒有看到央行有任何的一個反駁跟說明啊"},{"start":7057.349,"end":7073.172,"text":"而且媒體一直燒燒燒 燒了好多天了到昨天謝金河還在講央行有沒有在這個進行反駁 也沒有所以以至於這種媒體的推波助瀾之下再加上這個突應來襲就造成了這一波的急漲啊"},{"start":7074.133,"end":7089.655,"text":"我看法是這樣子是啦那個委員說的也沒有錯不過我們也有事實上就是說當然就是說就是說第一時間來澄清是效果會更好啦"},{"start":7090.035,"end":7105.1,"text":"對啊當然啦你沒有神經啊但是呢我們就是說只有在私下跟這些市場的評論者太保守了啦對啦這個是有一點我們以後又會要記取這個教訓你知道商業週刊的那個渲染力有多強"},{"start":7105.86,"end":7120.309,"text":"他還有一定的權威性13.3%裡面沒有任何的反駁結果讓他燒來燒去燒了半個月第二個你也是五月初的時候才開始講說所謂的廣場協定的2.0%我是前幾天的時候在聽你講說廣場協定2.0%不可能出現那我對照現在的資本規模確實你講的有道理"},{"start":7126.232,"end":7149.699,"text":"我不是否認 但是至少你的時間點 時間點要抓好嘛是是是 早分預期性越來越大 你不否認吧對對 委員的一個建議啊 我們來 我們吸取教訓以後就是說對於這個 就是說這個就是說 星星之火可以燎原對 沒有錯嘛那確實啦確實啦 那在這一個 在這方面呢 我想我們應該就是說"},{"start":7153.362,"end":7167.08,"text":"另外有說以前要及時撲滅猩猩之火對不對沒有錯啦沒有錯啦你以後成為機構所有的消防車都在你那邊隨便灑一下就熄啦第三個部分就是禿鷹"},{"start":7168.061,"end":7188.24,"text":"那我問一下這波禿鷹你們做調查你們做精檢啊你會不會使出楊金龍三個方式說命他離開或命他馬上我現在我們前一次在說的時候啊就是說我們有觀察到這個但是我們也沒有說他就是禿鷹啦但是呢我們就說有這個跡象"},{"start":7189.741,"end":7206.65,"text":"疑似禿鷹疑似禿鷹的定義跟我所說的禿鷹疑似禿鷹你定義侵告我們應該說是他草匯如果再不走的時候但是這個我們就盯得很緊現在我們就是去我們昨天就開始我們就去專案檢查"},{"start":7213.815,"end":7230.714,"text":"對 我們就現在專案檢查以前彭總裁的方式就要拿出來了對 我覺得就是說我們有做這一點好 這個就希望看到有破裂的做法才會有遏制的效果啦好不好 總裁另外一個部分就教育您的部分"},{"start":7231.835,"end":7252.041,"text":"有關於這個總量管制的部分總量信用管制的部分我記得我們第一波的時候當初的基本職中率我去查過是36.64你開始啟動的時候我最近調查最新的是36.89你上一波的檢討的時候認為37.1啟動度還是太高對不對好現在當下來了我們現在時間點這個時間點不過是5月8號"},{"start":7261.294,"end":7289.381,"text":"到你六月的時候你監視還有一段時間對如果按照這種抖降的趨勢的話他Maybe是有可能是低於第一波的這個時間點你會不會重新做一些政策上的考量我們會看看啦因為我們給他要一年的時間去自己調整啦對 當然是要調先調整對對對我其實問一下你一直有一個量化考學的指標嘛現在如果低於第一波"},{"start":7290.181,"end":7301.511,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說我們都一直在強調我們會滾動式的檢討對 滾動式的檢討滾到後來你也是要好好的面對這個問題滾到現在已經快過36.64%差不多啦我們會再檢討繼續滾"},{"start":7310.158,"end":7312.499,"text":"按照這個趨勢快要滾下去了啦 滾到36.64的時候 你現在心裡頭的想法是什麼"},{"start":7332.543,"end":7360.222,"text":"六月份的李監事會不會討論大家都會看而且我還跟你對照一個史上最大的家屋潮單季喔破三萬一千戶這剛發生為什麼這樣講呢因為你的命令啊就像聖旨一樣銀行都要遵守後面就有軟刺在那邊每個月的房地產新作額度不能超過預款的這個這個還款的額度為限那其實啊有打到"},{"start":7361.502,"end":7382.394,"text":"誰 打到那種換屋主換屋主現在銀行都不想要借啦都要竊竊幹嘛有的沒有的這個其實民間是有怨言的然後這一波的三萬一千戶當中到底有多少戶你可能要請財政部 請金管會去了解一下不要打到無辜你可以打投資客但是你不要打到換屋主"},{"start":7383.234,"end":7402.736,"text":"我現在有聽到類似這樣的那個民怨出現所以說總裁我才特別來這邊提醒你法人的部分你要繼續原格我沒有意見法人要拿到資本槓桿操作的可能性很大而且他們還款能力很強我認為甚至要屈原的都OK但是你不要打到自然人你不要打到幻物族可以嗎"},{"start":7403.837,"end":7430.584,"text":"對 我們會檢討好 麻煩檢討一下好 麻煩檢討一下總裁我最後看到你這個報告當中寫到的這個所謂的主權基金三個來源三個來源 三種方式一 財政部發債二 財政部撥款三 財政部出資設資那軟刺我就問你了那個總裁稍坐一下軟刺好像已經講了三種方式了嘛結果軟刺你們財政部出來的這個報告實在是"},{"start":7432.785,"end":7441.132,"text":"老實講齁 以不變應萬變總裁稍等咧 我還有一個問題要請教咧 抱歉 我是偏要休訓一下以不變應萬變你們怎麼可以這樣子 部長去開亞營 啊你們就不變應萬變你們至少要跟他賴一下嘛你們這幾次的報告當中 從來沒有變而且 還是蘇建榮咧 財政部長呼籲咧你們前陣子財政部長咧"},{"start":7459.348,"end":7485.935,"text":"還說要主權基金要成立咧你們連跟他A口一下都沒有沒有跟他捧場一下都沒有這個跟委員報告這基本上對這個主權基金這一部分因為目前還在討論當中所以我們對啊你們後來就寫行政院指示啊你們連行政院還是交給你們做評估行政院指示你們連評估都沒有評估這一點我老實講很不滿啊好 請你回去請你回去我請那個總裁一下總裁我最後超時一分鐘一下"},{"start":7487.175,"end":7506.306,"text":"兩個模式啦 一個新加坡模式 一個韓國模式啦總裁 你比較該哪個模式如果依照我們現在的這個央行有2.7%的外匯存體委外操作的話大約金額有140到150億美元的話你這個模式聽起來是委託給主權基金操作我看起來好像是比較偏韓國模式的是不是"},{"start":7507.851,"end":7523.004,"text":"我想就是說主權基金的一個成立先就是說因為現在政府我聽他們就說現在要來確定就是說是不是要成立那成立了以後慢慢他的步驟他就慢慢的會明瞭出來"},{"start":7523.584,"end":7540.059,"text":"到最後資金的來源的時候我們再來我們再來用什麼確定就是說一定要設立那中央銀行呢用什麼方式來協助好就不管黑貓白貓只要會抓老鼠就好貓不管新加坡或韓國模式都可以是不是OK好謝謝總裁的回顧謝謝謝謝國國委員的資訊下回信羅明才委員資訊"},{"start":7554.798,"end":7556.279,"text":"我們今年的經濟成長率是多少?"},{"start":7577.458,"end":7598.949,"text":"主席好 我們是預估我是委員委員好 今年我們是有預估預估是3.14這是我們一處預估那假設新台幣兌美元匯率跌破澎湃南房線的話那你的經濟成長率大概是抓多少"},{"start":7599.98,"end":7613.27,"text":"因為我們還會要看整個一個那個就是關稅的一個情形還有其他一些相關的因素在做評估如果就澎湃南的防線突破的話那你覺得對國內的經濟成長的影響情況是如何應該是會有我們這個部分我們預估是會再降低一點的"},{"start":7627.93,"end":7646.912,"text":"降低一點點,會不會降低0.1還是0.01降0.1%一個百分點百分之0.1,所以你們是有沙盤推演那請問澎淮南防線是新台幣多少對一美元多少,這個部分要"},{"start":7648.869,"end":7653.532,"text":"你剛剛怎麼會有零點零一的那個數字怎麼來的當然我不曉得他們怎麼做一個假設我不曉得他的假設"},{"start":7665.798,"end":7684.45,"text":"不過呢 我答覆委員你在說澎懷蘭黃線的時候呢我會有一個疑問我就說好像從來我們總裁也都從來沒有講過他的黃線是在哪裡的所以那個委員在講說澎懷蘭的黃線的時候我就總覺得我就是怎麼會怎麼會有這個澎懷蘭黃線的這個字眼出現那你請幕僚"},{"start":7694.437,"end":7704.961,"text":"沒有啊中央銀行裡面的我們從來從不談都沒有就是說而且這個房間你如果說是這樣我再猜可能是那個事務僚查一下過去歷史的報章"},{"start":7711.844,"end":7736.977,"text":"大概都是市場就說彭永才的那個什麼黃線事實上我跟委員報告我跟委員誠實的報告人家當然就更沒有更不可能都沒有那這樣子總裁韓國的央行總裁李昌雍你熟悉嗎我熟悉啊"},{"start":7737.857,"end":7750.785,"text":"他為什麼說這一波亞幣的大幅上漲是因為來自美國的壓力啊我這個前幾個委員都問過了你怎麼回答不是我怎麼回答因為他講了這個的時候有很多人確定包括學者有去"},{"start":7760.951,"end":7779.482,"text":"包括就是說他們去從他的講話裡面去好好的這個是韓國人的去翻譯好好的翻譯說這個報導跟他所說的是根本就是說差距很大所以又是一場誤會我也不敢這麼說因為我不曉得韓語一場誤會就是一場夢啦可是總裁如果說委員要做這樣的一個說法的話我也贊同"},{"start":7789.749,"end":7805.177,"text":"你覺得這個是一場夢那總是要有夢醒時刻啊夢醒時分就是總裁你在前幾天我看到你大家都那麼熟我覺得你有苦難掩所以我剛剛所以我剛剛我就說一開始的時候我有一個澄清有一個聲明澄清就是說"},{"start":7816.903,"end":7825.609,"text":"因為我的口才不好所以有些時候講話我講話的時候會結結巴巴他們都把他解釋說我有藍炎之癮那我就馬上要澄清那確實沒有這回事然後他又說因為有藍炎之癮所以我不善於說謊這個說謊又把他放進來確實沒有這回事那總裁如果你沒有藍炎之癮的話"},{"start":7847.803,"end":7873.454,"text":"看強美元還是看弱美元所以我剛剛就又再回答了我說歷任的財政部長都說要強勢美元那只有一個財政部長就前任的財政部長他稍微改口他認為說匯率是由市場供需來決定沒有所謂的強勢美元只有弱勢美元總裁就聽聽就好了"},{"start":7877.413,"end":7884.22,"text":"現在你說的也不算葉門說的也不算現在全世界只有一個人說的算我同意你的說法川普說了才算川普為了要讓美國偉大那你覺得美國為了走勢會強勢嗎"},{"start":7899.336,"end":7902.177,"text":"我跟委員報告啦我的邏輯啦我請教嘛總裁他如果說你是說可能他強勢好那如果美元如果強勢的話那請問美國怎麼樣偉大美國製造的東西他怎麼賣出口啊沒有出口他怎麼製造順差啊"},{"start":7920.765,"end":7941.116,"text":"所以這是一個很簡單的邏輯那我想請問一下總裁就是說你現在外匯存底是跟2300萬的國民息息相關你保管處理這些資產央行中央銀行法的第二條寫得很清楚有一條是什麼"},{"start":7942.276,"end":7958.584,"text":"會不會要維持穩定嘛對 那既然要維持穩定你為什麼不在這個幣別裡面在我兩年前三年前我就建議啊總裁你考不考慮買一些比特幣那時候是一個是六千塊美金啊"},{"start":7959.284,"end":7982.942,"text":"我還曾經多次的建議央行不論是在這邊或在文園我說這個黃金看起來閃閃發光每盎司是一千兩百七十塊的時候我說那可不可以說基建賣幾百個賣五百個因為你們那個台灣銀行有一個什麼楊天立不是承認部的"},{"start":7983.903,"end":7992.548,"text":"那個黃金網子啊他們都有研究我都請教了所以假設1780塊1270塊每盎司的時候你買進1000億台幣那1000億的話"},{"start":8003.895,"end":8010.94,"text":"請問總裁,今天的話你等於是賺了多少錢?是啦,我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我..."},{"start":8023.83,"end":8045.469,"text":"總裁那個委員好 我要答問你兩個問題啦兩個 第一個第一個呢 你就說那個為什麼不買比特幣不買黃金那我上次事實上呢 委員啊上一次呢 也回答 也提問了這個 槌尋了這個問題那我也就是說 我非常佩服委員的"},{"start":8047.029,"end":8068.737,"text":"的遠見但是呢我就說從中央銀行的一個manage叫我們外存體的一個準則來看的話那又是另外一回事我記得我有做這樣的一個說明第一個我要謝謝我就佩服你啊第一個我謝謝總裁對我的佩服我也接受嘛"},{"start":8069.557,"end":8083.915,"text":"可是面對外在情懷的變化我要提醒總裁全世界包括日本包括挪威包括很多國家現在美國公債的部分他們全部開始套跑一步一步的解決請問"},{"start":8089.201,"end":8103.395,"text":"請問總裁你對於央行現在所持有的美國公債你會不會採取減持的動作你現在那個委員你又再講就是說92%的我們都持有公債不對"},{"start":8104.517,"end":8105.838,"text":"副總裁講的不是我講的嗎副總裁講92他說80幾減少了啦92現在剩80幾"},{"start":8121.838,"end":8129.225,"text":"所以我也不必要再重複不過呢我跟委員報告啦至於就是說你說我們也回答啦就是說要調整中央銀行要調整我們都是很靈活的我們現在手上有沒有人民幣我們也有一些幾%"},{"start":8147.706,"end":8171.682,"text":"不高你為什麼不高一點呢因為他的利率現在第一個我要說明的就是說第一個人民幣我們為什麼握有人幣最主要是因為我們台商跟台商他有人民幣的需求他的settlement需要到人民幣所以他的一個流動性我們必須要我們必須要握有這樣的一個流動性這是第一點"},{"start":8172.542,"end":8191.163,"text":"但是呢我們也不能就說我們隨時我就像你說的啊我們隨時在調整你看看那個人民幣的利率一直掉啊利率一直掉你沒有發現到嗎那美國的利率會不會掉目前他還是點幾啊可是下個月呢"},{"start":8192.145,"end":8203.397,"text":"我不曉得那這樣子總統我跟你賭一碗牛肉麵今年美國的利率一定會往下調這個我想我不必要我們不用賭我來請你一碗牛肉麵我們不用賭那你請我我來請大家"},{"start":8214.168,"end":8236.366,"text":"那個因為時間關係最後就問一下謝謝楊總裁我問一下那個財政部那個阮市長那你每次官基金啟動都是互足有功啊都穩住了那你現在其實目前進場大概多少金額這個包委員這個不方便在這邊說明但是私底下我再那這次應該也會賺錢吧會不會"},{"start":8239.149,"end":8256.16,"text":"國安基金不是以賺錢為目的啦我想委員很清楚嘛我們最主要是要穩定股價我知道你們這一波又買了很多台積電因為畢竟他的權值比較高好 謝謝 那請國發會那我就要請一下那個高副主委我們手上很多的台積電"},{"start":8258.683,"end":8273.449,"text":"從兩年前到現在有沒有賣過沒有一張都沒賣是因為他是我們的護國神山所以不會賣基本上因為是我們的關鍵產業可是我們的護國神山已經變成美積電了"},{"start":8275.245,"end":8278.829,"text":"不會所以台積電會守住會不會跌我們對台積電有充分的信心"},{"start":8294.71,"end":8315.769,"text":"我覺得我們國人都應該要有這樣的信息另外一個就是國發基金現在整個加起來總市值是多少兩兆 其實我們的資產有兩兆有兩兆 對去年表現的情況是平均的嗎我們營養有三百多億 去年OK 好 謝謝是 謝謝好 謝謝林平強委員的質詢我們就要休息十分鐘"},{"start":8955.492,"end":8959.976,"text":"好 現在我們報告我們繼續開會下一位請李燕秀委員質詢請我是不是可以請總裁總裁"},{"start":8978.286,"end":9006.886,"text":"您很早午安 總裁這一連串辛苦了最近非常非常辛苦您辛苦 我們中小企業更辛苦所以這個議題實在是太重要總裁 這個五月初的兩天時間我們新台幣升值10%雖然剛才你回覆幾位委員說沒有所謂的洋金農防線沒有但是兩天升10%是總裁 你自己對於這個數字你有沒有非常驚訝"},{"start":9008.642,"end":9027.743,"text":"有沒有什麼樣的有沒有surprise兩天升10%你突然看到連續兩天升10%你是不是 我想喔 我想喔有沒有措手不及第一個就市場的一個觀點來看就像純如那個 就有一個shock"},{"start":9028.773,"end":9031.738,"text":"是一個shock但是就中央銀行的立場來看不是說立場因為我們時常在觀看這個市場所以市場的波動有些時候的波動比這個多還大的"},{"start":9042.281,"end":9044.623,"text":"不過委員 我跟您報告就是說即使是這兩天做比較大的"},{"start":9059.494,"end":9082.36,"text":"波動但是呢他釋放出來的一個釋放出來的一個能量呢讓後面這邊呢他的一個市場呢就回歸比較正常我覺得這個也是他另一方面的一個正面的一個看法我不是來跟你吵架這整件事情對台灣台灣中小企業占全台灣的98%"},{"start":9084.961,"end":9105.644,"text":"我們雇用的員工佔將近八成很多中小企業朋友跟我講只做進出口他說他什麼都沒做一下子我們中小企業很多都是我們都講毛三道是利率大概只有3%到4%的毛利率而已什麼都不做就損失一兩千萬他可能第一季或上半年"},{"start":9106.425,"end":9110.389,"text":"他本來預估賺的錢就全部都吐出去甚至在財務槓桿上他本來要付錢給上游廠商一下子少了那麼多錢他借錢來周轉你即便後續有什麼補充政府有什麼措施跟政府借錢是要還的不用還的但是"},{"start":9125.945,"end":9143.039,"text":"一下子兩天的利率升到10%對我們中小企業是嚴重的衝擊否則你不會在那一天下午四點半馬上開了記者會所以你剛才回應說對市場來說可能是surprise那"},{"start":9144.438,"end":9166.329,"text":"難道對我們來說沒有 對您來說沒有措手不及嗎你沒有措手不及 怎麼會下午四點漫開記者館所以 我才會跟委員報告嘛就是說事實上呢 專業銀行也不是說沒有事實的介入來調解啦只是說是因為它的市場的"},{"start":9168.029,"end":9171.992,"text":"不理性的預警我都同意市場我們有一些調節總裁我再問一件事情這個衝擊對我們中小企業影響太大有些小的進出口廠商一下子"},{"start":9187.521,"end":9205.666,"text":"萬一現在什麼都沒做就損失一兩千萬所以你個人認為你最近無論賴總統也好我們各縣市首長或者我們重要的部會跟財經有關的你覺得中小企業那個區間到底我們的台我們的升值多少30塊28塊31塊什麼樣是一個比較合理或比較好的一個區間數字"},{"start":9214.289,"end":9230.461,"text":"他們能夠承受的,你知道我的意思嗎?因為我們台灣靠進出口,90%都是中小企業所以我問你,什麼是一個比較合理的一個...我跟委員報告啦"},{"start":9233.843,"end":9244.843,"text":"事實上呢 我剛剛也跟其他的委員 我也說明了30塊的左右的這個價位呢 也不是第一次啦我知道 但以前就好幾次了"},{"start":9245.947,"end":9246.667,"text":"我跟委員報告說實在的"},{"start":9274.295,"end":9280.346,"text":"每一家的企業它對匯率的一個承受的程度不一樣"},{"start":9281.89,"end":9298.526,"text":"總裁那你就在浪費我的時間政府應該有一個比較理想的數字就是說理想的數字對大多數的我們還就是說會試是由供需來決定的你如果說是像這樣的話我就說我來報個名牌他30塊總裁你不願意講沒關係啦"},{"start":9306.192,"end":9330.847,"text":"我只覺得你心裡應該要有一個你不能講也好或你不願意講也好但是我覺得你心裡應該是要有一個什麼樣的一個數字對我們中小企業是一個衝擊不會太大這我要提醒你的我要轉到我的第二個問題 仲裁94歲的索羅斯他有一個外號你應該非常清楚叫金融巨噩他的量子基金是全世界最有名的對沖基金"},{"start":9331.587,"end":9335.992,"text":"那在97年當時1997年的時候你當時是剛從倫敦回到我們央行擔任行務委員所以你應該對當時的對沖基金量子基金應該是非常熟悉當然這次"},{"start":9346.804,"end":9368.163,"text":"現在的這一次的禿鷹的狀況也好跟當時1997年狀況有很大的不同剛才結委委員也問了一些問題但我想很具體的問就是說總裁因為環境不一樣這跟1997年環境不一樣這一波的禿鷹的炒匯從匯市到底賺了多少錢"},{"start":9371.101,"end":9389.837,"text":"我說實在的就是說因為我在記者會裡面呢我提到了tune這兩個字所以提到這兩個字的時候呢所以才有媒體報導了就是說把這個tune變成好像是一個重點事實上呢我當時呢我只是說"},{"start":9391.198,"end":9405.268,"text":"我們在就是說在這個波動的過程當中我們也發現了就是說外資呢他進來他沒有買股他沒有買股我直接再問你是拖音還是用這個對沖基金在後面炒孔"},{"start":9406.169,"end":9410.574,"text":"你所知道 因為你有說 你在媒體上你有說你請他出去所以現在就是說 到底你說你有查到 你也請他出去 你有查決那到底他獲利了結多少 到底是秃嬰還是對沖基金有好幾個對沖基金嗎不是 我跟委員報告啦 就是說"},{"start":9429.255,"end":9440.084,"text":"這個資金進來了以後parking就一兩天的時候呢我們就趕快第一個我們會告訴他你如果沒有買股票的時候你就趕快出去那你如果說進來的話"},{"start":9443.607,"end":9458.159,"text":"他是好幾個對沖基金嗎那我只能說我的類似但是我怎麼能說他就是禿鷹我知道那他是用對沖基金嗎沒關係總裁我知道好來那到底他是好幾個對沖基金還是只有一個對沖基金沒有啦我們看到了那個資金那麼龐大我們只是"},{"start":9468.688,"end":9477.294,"text":"跟Custodian就是我們的保管銀行我們告訴他你就是只有大德勸說因為我們以前也都是說你要進來你就是要買股票"},{"start":9485.74,"end":9486.941,"text":"總裁 我知道對於禿鷹的判斷標準 他要進來就趕快買股 獲利了結就趕快請他出去"},{"start":9508.743,"end":9521.31,"text":"但是我們現在只有道德勸說這件事情我覺得恐怕是不夠因為外界包括媒體都笑我們說我們只能道德勸說只剩下一張嘴所以未來我們會不會訂定規則或法則來去對於就是你資金進來你又不買股賺了錢你也不趕快出去我們應該要有一個規範出來你會不會制定這樣的一個規範"},{"start":9535.539,"end":9549.814,"text":"我覺得就是說第一個我們如果跟他的Custodian 我們有一個很好的一個很密切的一個協調 我覺得這樣也是足夠啦"},{"start":9550.755,"end":9556.358,"text":"所以不打限制立法則不打限制立規範你這樣的話你會嚇跑外資因為我們都好不容易就說我們市場都是那麼的自由你是一個自由的氣氛那我就只能請總裁那你最後的任務就沒有殺掉那以後他不敢進來好 總裁我知道所以未來你就只能持續的道德勸說不是說道德勸說我們密切觀察"},{"start":9578.869,"end":9603.175,"text":"那如果說你這樣的話 那所以我就說我們會密切的跟那個Custodian那總裁我請問這一波的外資的規模 進來炒貨的規模到底有多大數字有多大你不能講我也不便跟委員報告好 那另外一個 我們現在央行要啟動經營檢我們什麼時候會啟動我們昨天就啟動了好 預計執行多久我們至少 我們今天還是去啦"},{"start":9604.429,"end":9621.056,"text":"我們今天也去啦時間多久沒有 我們也沒有就說我們看看情況如何如果說覺得市場都已經會平靜而且是市場的秩序都已經良好的時候我們為什麼要一定查下去如果這個炒賣的對象也包含我們的進口廠商我們會怎麼處理對 我們也會對這個進出口廠商我知道 那如果有發現也有我們的進出口廠商會怎麼處理這個呢"},{"start":9629.959,"end":9643.447,"text":"這個呢我們對銀行因為銀行他要KYC而且我們相關的規定那這個是可以的你就跟財政部連結沒有不必要我們就本身就可以好謝謝謝謝總裁好謝謝李委員之請下一位請鍾嘉斌李昆哲委員之請請"},{"start":9658.919,"end":9668.351,"text":"謝謝主席我們先讓總裁喝口水可以嗎好 那就請總裁總裁請喝完水就可以上來"},{"start":9680.441,"end":9705.588,"text":"委員早總裁好 辛苦了謝謝那當然大家都很關心說最近這個台北升職的問題那剛剛很多委員也都有在問了那這個也因為情況波動比較大升職的力道比較大那所以在5月5號的時候包含總統跟總裁都出來這個講話啦總統是用錄影的方式那總裁是簽字召開這個記者會那我有看到這個總統他有特別提到說"},{"start":9706.548,"end":9730.168,"text":"第一個它可能是市場預期的心理第二個可能是不實的訊息企圖來操縱市場那我先想請教一下這個總裁那總統所說的這個市場的預期的心理是指什麼預期台幣會升值對啦所以我們就是說我們在這個我們在5月5號的新聞稿裡面我們的第六點就講得很清楚"},{"start":9730.828,"end":9756.176,"text":"我們講得很清楚就是說我們欲請市場評論人員切勿以臆測的方式評論國內會市相關議題避免影響國內會市的秩序及穩定這個我有看到這個所以我們裡面是寫的稍微比較溫和一點事實上我們也希望他們節制啦不要導致這個市場的非理性的預期那非理性的預期會導致兩個現象"},{"start":9757.816,"end":9771.832,"text":"第一個現象就是說市場秩序會亂掉第二個會不穩定波及到我們的經濟的層面中央銀行要維持市場秩序的職者變得更困難這是第一點"},{"start":9772.813,"end":9793.066,"text":"第二點我們也呼籲就是說我們的廠商你也不必要太親信的這些的市場的謠言那這樣的話呢你一直拋拋拋中央銀行我們也是我們也是盡我們的職責我們要來調整但是呢因為他的預期心理太強了所以呢我們也就呼籲我們的廠商呢你也要"},{"start":9793.786,"end":9816.389,"text":"也要注意因為到最後你如果說一直在啪啪啪的時候呢到最後呢你會傷到我我問一下總裁大概哪時候開始觀察到台幣升值的力道開始逐漸加強事實上呢4月30號左右就大概就所以呢所以剛剛有一個委員我覺得他的建議也很好啦"},{"start":9816.889,"end":9837.603,"text":"就是說事實上這個運量新台幣升值的預期事實上在4月中以後事實上在4月8號以後就是川普的4月2號以後大概就是慢慢的慢慢你看看就是說這個評論員就是說會在到哪裡啊用大麥克的指數啊什麼的所以那個時候就是開始在運量了"},{"start":9847.149,"end":9871.159,"text":"對啊 那時候就開始在講台幣會不斷的升值甚至有人提到說九十幾塊所以呢 我剛剛那個委員就說建議我們就是說這個新興之火啊 也應該要趕快撲滅那這個就當然了就是說 我們認為就是說這怎麼有可能怎麼有可能到那個總裁這樣講好像當時候央行有點輕忽了這種新興之火可以燎原的這個趨勢啊"},{"start":9872.259,"end":9887.67,"text":"當然啦 不過我們也是有私下跟這些評論員接觸啦希望他們不要這樣子啦但是已經造成了這個效果啦最後升到29.5%左右啊所以呢 也就是說 我說我們也會記取教訓啦對於這個新興之火我們也必須要立即的"},{"start":9896.736,"end":9913.885,"text":"我覺得這個教訓真的要繼續啦因為接下來我又看到說這個包含這個國民黨的主席啊他講說這個接下來不是只有關稅戰是貨幣戰然後他又講說那接下來呢可能在本週或是下週呢"},{"start":9915.165,"end":9932.611,"text":"這個我們就會接到美國財政部的匯率報告他說台灣一定會被列明為觀察名單而且是嚴重的觀察名單所以我是不曉得誰在講這個因為今天那這件事我就是要主要要總裁要注意對對對好那我也剛剛我也藉這個機會也在澄清了"},{"start":9933.231,"end":9954.376,"text":"所以我想委員給我讓我有這個機會再來重申就是說因為我們也有這個教訓所以你讓我有這個時間來說明第一個就是說嚴重的我不曉得是誰因為今天早上我很匆匆忙忙因為要來趕趕是誰不管我就說事實上絕對沒有所謂的嚴重的操縱匯率"},{"start":9963.622,"end":9970.124,"text":"後來好像我看了那個小標題它是大標題是嚴重的匯率超重但是它的小標題裡面是講就是說嚴重的匯率的觀察列為嚴重的觀察名單但是沒有這回事不會有這回事"},{"start":9984.75,"end":10004.122,"text":"類似這一種的我敢這樣的澄清這是第一點第二點就是說又有市場的人士就是說六月的時候會有美債的危機所以我就說我必須要我剛剛的另外一個說明"},{"start":10005.283,"end":10020.28,"text":"5月1號、5月2號、5月5號我們說的都事實事實上呢這個海湖的那個莊園的那個協定根本就是到目前為止都沒有這個我知道那個央行新聞稿都有寫但是我就是要提醒總裁要注意"},{"start":10021.261,"end":10039.273,"text":"就是說台幣的升值它其實也有脈絡可循你剛剛講說4月8號之後然後不斷在市場就有人放出這個消息出來那現在包含這一個連在野黨的黨主席都出來講說接下來就是貨幣戰了接下來台灣就會被列為這個嚴重的觀察名單了這個要注意啊"},{"start":10040.473,"end":10042.515,"text":"所以我也非常謝謝財委會今天安排這個議題讓我們來報告但是裡面雖然是主權基金的一個議題但是呢"},{"start":10055.422,"end":10083.688,"text":"很大部分的委員都是對這個匯率有一些的關心那我覺得我也非常感謝蔡委會給我們這個機會除了我們在5月5號的時候那個記者會我們來澄清事實上這一次也是很好的機會讓我們再次的澄清那我請教一下總裁那您認為說這個台幣的合理匯率大概是"},{"start":10084.208,"end":10111.708,"text":"所以我還是就對這個來講的話我不能抱名牌啊事實上那個名牌不是名牌所以我就說事實上匯率是供需來決定的它有上有下你現在就是說是在升但是有一天有一天它會扁啊對不對所以也不要就是說它會升到什麼樣才是合理的Who knows誰曉得"},{"start":10112.65,"end":10113.533,"text":"但是我要強調的就是說"},{"start":10116.175,"end":10145.895,"text":"本波的新台幣的升值的非理性的預期心理到目前呢是so far so good已經就把那個負的能量已經釋放出來so far so good就對了就是可以控制掌握就對了應該是我們的調解呢已經就是說幾乎是供需是平衡了所以我們的調解呢就不像前幾天這樣的那麼的辛苦所以呢我想呢我們在這邊再做一次澄清我是覺得是非常好的"},{"start":10146.135,"end":10171.298,"text":"好那我再問一下主權基金那這個主委院長他是比較積極的態度在推動這個主權基金那我也看到這一個央行的報告那我想請教一下那央行也是認為說是可以設主權基金但是要用專法的方式來做處理就對了那你認為說主權基金規模大概要多大這個所以我就說嘛我還是覺得就是說"},{"start":10172.299,"end":10194.514,"text":"要設立主權基金這個是我們政府必須要他做的決定中央銀行應該就說所以很多市場很多都說以前都是中央銀行反對啦所以才沒辦法成立主權基金說實在不對我看你們是支持的嘛對阿但是就是設專法嘛而且不要動到外匯嘛對不對我們就說外匯"},{"start":10202.379,"end":10226.436,"text":"不能無償的撥用我們只是強調這裡所以也就是說成立主權基金這個是政府的事政府呢應該要怎麼來研議那至於我們中央銀行呢我們也不便在這邊說它的規模要多少啊那你要怎麼樣怎麼樣我覺得那個涉及到說它的這個主權基金的這個基金的來源啊是是是那我們提到就是跟財政部有相關的發債撥款"},{"start":10229.938,"end":10241.104,"text":"然後出資這都是跟財政部相關的啦那除了這個財政部之外那其他委員有提到說譬如說四大基金也有提到國發基金那他們適合投資嗎所以國發基金有他們的立場"},{"start":10245.506,"end":10273.698,"text":"他的意見他真正的意見是怎麼樣他們也要必須要再嚴厲那至於四大基金他們態度是如何他們自己也要就是說因應如果說政府要成立主權基金的時候他們要如何來協助假設說政府是這樣但是呢決定都是由他們的中央銀行不能就說他一定要加入中央銀行沒有這個權利確實都沒有這個權利好那我最後一點時間就請這個國發會的這個副主委好了"},{"start":10274.598,"end":10293.312,"text":"因為我剛剛聽很多的委員都有問到相關的問題總裁先請回好了那國發會對於這個設立主權基建的態度是怎麼樣我想剛剛總裁也說明了我們建議還是用專法的方式來做那基金的來源呢"},{"start":10294.011,"end":10315.476,"text":"資金的來源 齊總才有講到可以用發債的方式用發債的方式所以國發委認為說用發債方式是一個做的是國庫撥補其實有 因為到時候會成立一個專案小組我們會就資金來源的投措的方式還有資金的金額等等我們會進行相關的討論那不建議動用到目前的四大基金就對了"},{"start":10318.678,"end":10326.422,"text":"就是如果發債的話,有可能市場基金也可以購買債券還有很多方式可以來運用"},{"start":10349.901,"end":10363.234,"text":"主席在場的委員先進 列席的政府相關所長 官員會長 公共夥伴記者媒體女士先生有請我們中央銀行楊總裁國發會的高副主委還有邀請勞動部的理事長各位長官請中央人早"},{"start":10372.083,"end":10382.601,"text":"總裁好 副主委好 次長好今天主題呢 籌建主權基金專法專責專才 樣好任務強化關注就業薪資來 先請教總裁是你有宗教信仰嗎"},{"start":10384.654,"end":10408.193,"text":"我覺得每一個人都要有宗教信仰那你知道台灣社會有兩種非宗教信仰嗎我講給你聽上班族有土地信仰相信房地產只會漲產業界有一個央行信仰相信央行台幣主升不主貶你同意嗎我覺得房地產只會漲央行信仰你同意嗎"},{"start":10409.202,"end":10433.662,"text":"有這樣的央行信仰嗎沒有啊因為這個這是明顯的台幣升了嘛對不對你看我們前一波我們才逐點啊所以央行信仰呢被一個修正了我們央行還是會有升有貶的對對對但是呢過去這個央行信仰在的時間啊我們的產業界我們的壽險界因為這個信仰所以呢這邊壽險業他們的美金的避險做得不夠"},{"start":10434.463,"end":10447.653,"text":"所以這連續幾天的升值他們就嘩嘩叫但是我們來看一下我比較驚訝的坦白說這個過程迅速的升值有包有扁但我個人比較傾向是正面肯定因為您提到了防止突襲"},{"start":10450.035,"end":10478.414,"text":"這在過去台幣緩慢升值的信仰當中給很多人有可乘之機這次突破傳統的想法認為央行就算是會升也是慢慢的升結果沒有這樣的情況所以出乎人家意料破除人家的央行信仰我覺得這個值得肯定謝謝 非常謝謝這個對我們是一個很大的鼓勵但是我有一個疑惑為什麼你們央行表示台幣升值不影響央行的腳庫盈餘"},{"start":10480.055,"end":10508.536,"text":"他說報紙上報導台幣升值不會影響央行的損益淨值跟腳庫盈餘這怎麼回事啊我跟委員報告我很簡單的講就是說因為我們匯率就是說匯率會有這樣的一個如果說貶值的時候呢貶值的時候呢我們的現在升值我們貶值的時候呢升值的時候你的盈餘會不會縮水我們就有盈餘對上一上一上一陣子我們到一兆多現在台幣升值你的盈餘會不會縮水"},{"start":10509.637,"end":10536.095,"text":"不會 因為為什麼 因為這個那盈餘怎麼來的不 我先來說我先問你腳褲盈餘怎麼來的我們腳褲的盈餘就是我們的收益啊你們的收益怎麼來的 主要收益在哪裡我們收益的就是投資各個幣別的 是嗎我們來看一下 各個幣別的啊央行握有美債超過4600多億對不對如果台幣升值了你這樣的一個透過美債持有美債的收益就會縮水嘛 是不是這樣子是不是這樣 同不同意"},{"start":10537.034,"end":10542.1,"text":"那今天的而且你還不是一次喔國庫金基努啊央行盈餘繳庫連續兩年超過兩千億請問一下盈餘繳庫"},{"start":10547.947,"end":10569.101,"text":"腳褲盈餘是用央行的錢賺來的嗎是啊沒有錯啊是央行的錢喔不是外匯存底外匯存底是全民的資產對啦沒有錯啊那怎麼是央行的錢因為我們也好既然央行用來賺腳褲盈餘的錢是外匯存底持有的美債為主那請問一下你用大家的錢賺的錢腳褲盈餘是你央行的經營目標嗎"},{"start":10572.023,"end":10587.992,"text":"沒有不是你的目標嗎對沒有那很奇怪耶但是每次我聽你們央行在講的好像把腳褲盈餘神聖不可侵犯啊沒有如果要維持這個腳褲盈餘沒有財政部同意嗎沒有財政部市長絕對沒有你們同意嗎財政部市長對沒有沒有以後你們腳褲盈餘變少了財政部不會講話嗎絕對沒有請問市長央行的盈餘腳褲是他的使命嗎"},{"start":10600.516,"end":10624.653,"text":"我就了解各國的央行幾乎都會把那英語都會攪哭了好來我們看各國的你既然講到來央行總裁看一下這是美國的聯準會他說他的使命是有效促進充分就業為什麼請勞動部長來市長來物價穩定和長期利率的適度央行法寫什麼金融穩定健全銀行幣值的穩定以及經濟發展"},{"start":10626.374,"end":10646.896,"text":"有沒有寫到腳步盈餘?沒有那請問一下美國的聯準會關心的問題央行有沒有關心就業跟物價?你關不關心就業跟物價?剛剛財政部長說各國的央行都有做的事情那我想我們台灣的央行也會做你有關心物價跟就業嗎?"},{"start":10649.218,"end":10665.306,"text":"我們的物價是在幣值的穩定那邊啦對內對外穩定因為購買力的問題後面再講往下看但是呢我們過去本席也跟很多委員有提過立法院也曾經多次提過要用外匯存底來提撥成立主權基金你還記得吧"},{"start":10666.026,"end":10688.547,"text":"您是不是堅定的反對對但是你現在堅決反對但是現在堅持不反對沒有你從堅決反對到堅持不反對我們堅決反對是說無償的不用我們是堅決反對但是你不是反對拿外匯存底就對了你的反對是反對不是反對拿外匯存底為什麼"},{"start":10689.847,"end":10718.74,"text":"因為其他的國家都是用外匯存體做沒有韓國就是嘛對不對沒有不是我來問你韓國是不是用外匯存體我說韓國是用外匯存體委託他對委託他嘛那委託呢往下看好過去堅持反對現在堅持不反對你堅持什麼沒有第一主權基金未來不虧央行款對不對對第二個可以用外匯存體但是要有償使用對不對"},{"start":10720.37,"end":10742.604,"text":"第三要有專法這是你的堅持嘛堅持不歸央行款堅持外匯存體要有償使用堅持要有專法是不是這樣子所以我說嘛過去你堅決反對大家誤會你了嘛你不是堅決反對你是堅持但不反對來往下看那現在呢我們財政部說成立主權接近要設定專法來次長為什麼要有專法"},{"start":10745.201,"end":10769.41,"text":"基本上因為他是一個創富基金創富基金所以他要監督因為他的風險比較高有賺有虧所以有賺有虧有風險但不能說賺就是有功賠就是要法要專法要依法來管不是依盈虧賺賠來管專法的目的不是依賺賠盈虧來管是依法來管理"},{"start":10773.712,"end":10785.535,"text":"要對依法來觀察好 那這也同意說 違不宜由外匯子體直接無藏不用那請問我們國防外部主委你們這個議題是誰在主管主權基金現在行政院交給誰來研究"},{"start":10786.826,"end":10805.192,"text":"現在就是國發會嘛目前還沒有定案是有哪一個主管機關我們猜應該是國發會管啊對 還是要等行政院決定那假設未來國發會管來 請問一下剛剛我們總裁跟財政部長說的外匯存體要怎麼有償的使用"},{"start":10806.517,"end":10826.237,"text":"基本上如果按照那個新加坡的例子的話是他們是用發債的方式那是發債 我說外匯存底呢 有啥使用發債 然後呢他們就是外匯存底 有部分是他們是做財務性的操作那他就可以外匯存底 跟央行拿外匯存底使用後要付央行錢 簡單講是這樣"},{"start":10827.859,"end":10854.029,"text":"就是說其實因為央行裡面它基本上來我請問一下總裁如果要央行要有償使用我想就是說基本上用你的外匯存頂你管外匯存頂要多少錢新加坡它如果說要用動用我問新加坡我說你說的有償使用使用央行管你的外匯存頂要多少錢就是兩個途徑第一個途徑就是說你要買匯你要跟專營買匯這個才有償對不對"},{"start":10857.23,"end":10877.247,"text":"所以央行可以透過買匯拿到錢就對了所以未來我們就這樣結論了主權基金成立之後他的盈餘他負責繳庫因為怎麼樣本來央行拿去操作美債賺的錢繳庫的錢現在換成主權基金跟你有償使用後他負責錢那請問是你繼續繳庫還是他來繳庫"},{"start":10880.657,"end":10883.739,"text":"你會不會因為主權基金使用你的外匯存底而"},{"start":10900.507,"end":10918.974,"text":"有收益要繳庫沒有就是我們的外匯存底就還是主席不要緊張但是他現在就是說他如果說是用新台幣來跟我們買的時候我簡單問你如果未來主席願意成立動用到你的外匯存底你會收到他付的錢對不對這個是不是你的盈餘要繳庫你說什麼"},{"start":10921.974,"end":10943.563,"text":"我已經問了三次了 再說一次你竟然主張外匯存底使用 主均均使用要有償不管他用什麼方式 你會有一筆錢 有一筆收益嘛這個收益就是你要小庫的嘛 對不對那以後這個錢呢 多或少就不那麼重要了嘛至少不是你的使命嘛 你的使命怎麼樣要不要促進充分就業 沒有錯 那請問次長 理事長"},{"start":10947.384,"end":10976.232,"text":"那你覺得央行是不是應該跟聯準會一樣關心就業也關心我們的薪資水平呢?保偉我了解美國的Faith他是很關心就業水準特別是失業率是他們的一個重要的衡量指標是那我覺得我想我們的央行他本於他的職權也是會關注這一塊好也會關注期待啦我們下一頁因為時間關係好央行怎麼保持我們新台幣的幣值穩定第一個你要匯率"},{"start":10977.048,"end":10992.17,"text":"就是對美金的匯率對不對這是我們對外國財貨的購買力第二個是我們的CPI我們的物價指數物價不能太上漲不能購買力會下降是不是那請問央行為了維持幣值穩定台幣的主升容易還是主貶容易"},{"start":10993.581,"end":11006.648,"text":"我想呢兩個都不太容易啦如果比較起來,你老師問我兩個的答案比較起來哪個比較容易比較起來的時候呢,我覺得主生比較難主生比較難,來我們看一下"},{"start":11008.106,"end":11028.701,"text":"今天如果美金要貶值你要防止台幣升值你只要釋出台幣就好了嘛你發行國庫券從銀行把新台幣拿出來交給持有外匯的業者增加新台幣供給台幣會不會升值你要怎麼阻止台幣貶值你能夠阻止台幣貶值嗎你阻止台幣貶值要拋售美金啊對不對"},{"start":11031.663,"end":11045.795,"text":"你的美金如果有限 你拋售能力有限但是台幣 竹餅權 台幣竹餅在你手上對啦 那個委員這樣講的話那我稍微修改我的答案啦事實上呢 竹生跟竹餅都不大容易啦"},{"start":11051.7,"end":11065.618,"text":"因為主生容易 所以你只要發行新台幣 擴大新台幣就好了不加薪 結果我們新台幣通過增加的結果我們的薪水沒有增加 物價是微微的上漲但是我們的房地產上漲了 往下看"},{"start":11066.739,"end":11074.263,"text":"這是一個很重要的資產負債表央行過去在2017年到2024年我們的資產負債表從2017年的8.5兆到21.1兆我們的名目GDP是從18.6上升到26.5我們央行的資產負債表的佔比在我國的GDP從45上升到快80上升了33"},{"start":11086.269,"end":11101.616,"text":"美國上次的貨幣寬鬆QE1到QE3他從2007到2014他也只不過了他們的聯準會的資產副照表也不過的戰機率的戰品呢增加了不到20他目前的戰品只有25這什麼意思我們往下看"},{"start":11102.959,"end":11121.866,"text":"台美的貨幣擴張的規模台灣在最近7年來我們的M2貨幣供給量從44.5兆增加到64.5兆增加20兆美國在上市的貨幣寬鬆時期也不過增加了3.5兆美金指標我們看一下台幣跟美國的比較是107.5兆對23.8兆請問一下李市長"},{"start":11126.087,"end":11142.735,"text":"您覺得貨幣擴張這麼多時間超過很多了時間超過很多了一天快結束了結束了結束了你覺得有可能的營養是什麼包委員你剛剛問的是往下一頁來如果基礎貨幣大幅上漲導致物價跟房地產過度膨脹你覺得對我們社信階級有什麼影響"},{"start":11149.181,"end":11167.036,"text":"就勞動部立場當然物價上漲勞工的實質薪資率就會那麼高那房地產上漲呢我要結論了我要結論了主席你剛剛突然站起來害我嚇一跳精神損壞前面兩分鐘沒有前面十幾分鐘了我已經給你十幾分鐘了可以了可以了不要兩分鐘了換接位好不好兩條前面的人繼續我把它做個結論嘛"},{"start":11169.578,"end":11188.675,"text":"結束了好不好結束了對不對我給你十二分鐘了你啊你剛剛八分鐘就站起來了我已經給你十二分鐘你不要這樣子了你請往前上一張以GDP的規模做比較過去台灣七年比美國規模還大的QE結果結論我要講出來的結論總裁請你注意一下拜託"},{"start":11189.736,"end":11204.284,"text":"如果要成立國家主權基金央行法的第二條你的經營的目標請你要考慮放進有效促進充分就業提高薪資水準以及物價穩定可不可以往這個目標去研議你們央行法的修改"},{"start":11206.006,"end":11206.606,"text":"我試下來跟委員報告很細節的報告"},{"start":11232.988,"end":11240.252,"text":"我希望委員尊重主席 你超過20分鐘了 這個過分了吧站起來說我坐下來了啊你一定要這樣變嗎我站起來 你時間超過20分鐘 我一直讓你講站起來 我馬上坐下來啊哪有結束 再講20分鐘啊"},{"start":11256.783,"end":11264.39,"text":"我不尊重主席 這樣準備這麼多很好但是你要考慮其他人嘛 後面的人怎麼辦好 謝謝主席 邀請財政部委員好"},{"start":11279.546,"end":11300.541,"text":"市長好 針對於我們面臨的長期的人口老化以及財政壓力產業升級的需求那麼大家一直在討論設立主權基金所以本席首先要請教到底我們財政部有沒有做這樣子的一個評估跟規劃 請說明"},{"start":11302.622,"end":11327.627,"text":"這個基本上我們行政機關都有一些跨部會的協商已經開始在協商是嗎對那財政部一直都有參與財政部一直有參與那現在的方向呢現在當時是還沒有很確定的方向不過現在是大家比較偏向就是要成立從什麼時候開始大家偏向要成立"},{"start":11328.207,"end":11349.141,"text":"慢慢的,他覺得說有這個需求所以我們現在就是說如果要成立的話因為主權基金它是一個創富基金它是要投資很多的權益證券很多高風險的一些資產所以會有賺有虧所以基本上我們是希望說是要有共識而且要立專法"},{"start":11350.001,"end":11371.828,"text":"就有關的比如說裁員或者是立專法裁員來源那依照次長你剛才所說的也就是目前政府的方向是朝向要設的一個階段當中是嗎是會思考這個問題會思考這個問題那方向是朝這個方向"},{"start":11373.468,"end":11399.723,"text":"會研議它的可行性研議要設的可行性因為也有人說這個主權基金它是提升的資產操作的一個效率跟強化了整個政策性投資工具的重要手段那也看到目前全球大概有90多個主權基金它總管理的額度大概有8兆的美元"},{"start":11400.663,"end":11416.152,"text":"但是我們國家到目前為止當然您剛才的回答當中也就是說現在是朝這個藥舍的評估當中我這麼解讀正確吧是所以我們也考量我們現在現行的四大基金"},{"start":11417.032,"end":11435.039,"text":"我們現行的四大基金現在也沒有一個統一的戰略架構沒有一個統一的戰略架構所以你們現在在討論這一些但是本身還是要跟你討論也就是說我們目前為止你們設的可行性評估"},{"start":11436.039,"end":11451.977,"text":"是朝要設的方向那但是在主權基金如果順利之後他會不會排擠到現行的其他各項的這個基金來源就證如剛剛央行我們一直在聽取的從以前他們所謂的還不是很贊成"},{"start":11456.241,"end":11468.258,"text":"到現在也是模糊的空間所以這其中還是有很多必須要去釐清楚跟論述所以特別強調也就是說成立之後當然會不會排擠到現行的各項的基金財源"},{"start":11472.884,"end":11495.019,"text":"如果是從現在其他國家的經驗來看主權基金他投資的方向除了國內的市場之外最主要著重的是國際市場所以在這種情況之下目前的世大基金大概比較著重的是國內的市場所以基本上應該是會相輔相成不會有互相矛盾的問題"},{"start":11495.879,"end":11498.644,"text":"不會有矛盾的這個問題那請教次長在這個議題當中你們設定的KPI時間點會預估落點在什麼時候設 或者是不設"},{"start":11509.138,"end":11527.15,"text":"這個跟委員報告 基本上我們要配合行政院的政策基本上我們財政部沒辦法因為這是跨部會的事因為你們都參與其中在討論嗎對 這跨部會的事所以還沒有定點在什麼時間要配合行政院的政策配合行政院的政策好 李警衛最後本期邀請央行"},{"start":11538.487,"end":11547.895,"text":"我本席辦公室在兩週前就已經關切的我們外資的熱錢進出台灣市場的潛在異常情況當時詢問關於整個資金流動的監理作為一直到了5月6號 您終於說了已發現禿鷹的蹤跡"},{"start":11561.667,"end":11576.758,"text":"而且他出去時是慢吞吞那外匯的這個蔡局長他也進一步表示近期有針對於保管銀行以及遠期外匯避險廠商啟動了全面的一個徹查"},{"start":11577.558,"end":11603.896,"text":"那麼央行本身也掌控了熱錢流入流出的即時動態那在即時介入防範這個炒匯套利跟違反的停泊行為那反觀本期在兩週前就已經提示出但是我們到現在才啟動專案精檢那是不是我們整個在制度面裡頭有明顯的這個落後 請說明"},{"start":11606.638,"end":11610.161,"text":"對 我想委員就是說是不是我們明顯的落後應該是還好啦我們如果說就我們自己的一個判斷來講的話 還好啦沒有就是說是明顯的落後啦沒有明顯 就算還好 還好就是還是"},{"start":11626.155,"end":11632.378,"text":"有討論的空間不是就是說我所謂的還好我現在就是說所謂的還好就是說這個議題我們看到的時候呢我們馬上就去注意它了然後呢我們第二個呢我們就趕快配合就是說金錢去更深入的了解所以我覺得到目前為止經過幾天了以後呢我們也會覺得我們都覺得就是說外資呢進來呢他買股票呢"},{"start":11654.83,"end":11674.642,"text":"他就買股票了所以沒有就像我們上一次所發現到的他進來了以後他就parking在那邊所以呢我才會就是說這個parking在那邊停泊一週以上是屬於不正常的對不對以在這個目前的情況來講的話呢停泊在那邊一週我是覺得不正常"},{"start":11675.282,"end":11694.116,"text":"是不正常的所以我們本來就是設定如此是不正常的所以我們在這個屯博天書當然我們已經很明顯的設定你認為不正常就是一週很清楚這個時間點所以在我們的處置機制這個機制裡頭我們更應當要嚴謹更應當要嚴謹我們有如同委員所說的我們是會更嚴謹更嚴謹一定要更嚴謹謝謝會會會謝謝"},{"start":11704.485,"end":11706.087,"text":"我們現在可以發放便當需要的人可以啟用總裁請"},{"start":11734.424,"end":11754.769,"text":"我想這兩天大家對台幣的匯率都非常的關心你也講了非常多的話它的升值快速到沒有辦法承擔的原因是它升太快你可以同意嗎因為短短幾天大幅升值的狀況然後沒有看到央行出手所以大家對央行有一些疑慮我想問一下原因找到了沒"},{"start":11755.249,"end":11771.526,"text":"我們也沒有就是說沒有出手啦 是有啦原因找到了沒原因最主要的還是就是說他的預計是太強了然後美國沒有施壓嘛然後台灣央行也沒有介入嘛答案是這樣 是嗎"},{"start":11772.407,"end":11783.323,"text":"所有的沒有介入,你的意思是說我們沒有適度調節嗎?你們沒有調整嗎?有啊,我沒有調整我沒有施壓,這個我一直在澄清所以總裁我可以說30塊現在熟住了嗎?"},{"start":11787.84,"end":11795.985,"text":"匯率呢我只能跟委員報告就是說匯率有聲有扁但目前是供需你不會說30塊叫做楊金龍防線沒有也不會所以長期會怎樣你的判斷是什麼"},{"start":11804.594,"end":11812.185,"text":"匯率還是供需決定啊有升有貶啊升的時候呢全世界都知道川普在玩關稅遊戲啦關稅遊戲這個玩下去你覺得長期會怎麼樣"},{"start":11818.192,"end":11832.617,"text":"我覺得美國他有很多的金融工具他有關稅 他有美元 他最大的還有白債所以我才會說現在目前他是已經針對關稅來沒有報費率的問題"},{"start":11838.639,"end":11852.493,"text":"你認為他沒有弄匯率的問題但是沒有沒有總裁很簡單我想問個簡單的問題是在台美貿易談判正在如火如荼的進行中你覺得匯率會不會是貿易談判的一個障礙或者是該不該在裡面不會不會"},{"start":11854.054,"end":11868.742,"text":"那你認為台美之間匯率不是問題也不是貿易障礙的壁壘也沒有任何問題所以不需要跟美國談我跟委員報告就是說剛好就是這個關稅的談判我們從來也沒有跟美國談到匯率的問題我跟委員報告要強調的一點就是我的時間很有限我就直接說你認不認為在貿易談判的時候匯率台灣跟美國"},{"start":11883.05,"end":11907.33,"text":"要不要談 或者是我們要不要參與 或者是你央行要不要派員嘛我跟委員報告啦 我們一直在強調就是說我們跟美國財政部的溝通非常良好你們跟美國財政部的溝通很好 非常良好但是跟美國貿易代表處的溝通不怎麼好我們談齁 我跟委員報告齁這個他每年齁 都是會兩次 固定兩次我知道啦 現在"},{"start":11908.231,"end":11923.413,"text":"總裁你們很厲害但是我說現在台美貿易談判對我個人來說我認為不可能不談也必然會提到只是有沒有公開如果真的要當成我們談判的籌碼之一可以但是要讓國人安心對對"},{"start":11925.135,"end":11930.321,"text":"就算是要犧牲掉匯率也要讓國人清楚知道所以我們希望維持台幣的穩定至少讓國人知道它的趨勢跟將來應該怎麼樣的避險"},{"start":11941.672,"end":11964.507,"text":"讓台幣動態穩定這是我們的職責穩定的台幣才是國人安心的保障第二個部分現在台幣升值有很多人受損出口商但是有幾個人應該很高興的就是進口商尤其是我們最高興的應該是幾家國營事業吧我們台電中油買的東西都是用"},{"start":11965.546,"end":11978.42,"text":"新台幣換美金去買這樣的話他們的虧損是不是可以減少一點對啦也沒有錯所以他會不會是你在匯率調整時候你們出手的好幫手變成你的互惠國家隊"},{"start":11981.028,"end":12007.077,"text":"因為他如果繼續換美金的話他也許可以幫你併出一些台幣的匯率因為他一年買兩千億的天然氣啊對啦就是說如果說需求跟總裁我的意思是說當匯率在調整的時候我們有人受害有人受賄受賄的產業如果是國營事業他應該要成為他將來他也可能有一天貶值的時候他要花更多的錢去買美金一樣的他應該要做避險"},{"start":12008.258,"end":12027.518,"text":"這也是我覺得央行跟整個政府團隊都應該要好好一起來規劃在這個升值跟貶值的過程中我們的國營事業既然在這中間有受到衝擊也有受到優惠這些東西應該是總裁應該考慮找他們當你的互惠國家隊"},{"start":12030.1,"end":12044.044,"text":"讓他去幫你多買點美金你就不用花那麼多錢那個委員是這個建議是非常好啦是他們現在油價要跌啦台電的虧損可能也會彌補啦好接下去我們重點是我希望"},{"start":12044.924,"end":12066.649,"text":"如果長期的穩定台幣不管它是多少錢都應該很清楚在過程裡面讓所有的廠商有時間去適應甚至有時間政府的補貼可以到位否則像這樣一天兩天就突然急升的情況下我覺得央行還是必須要不管人家要不要罵你出手該有匯率你還是要有一定的作為"},{"start":12067.489,"end":12090.245,"text":"否則會讓大家擔心說就看著他生然後全世界都知道在生但是我們自己沒有任何疑點就看看他在生事實上我們也有適當的感覺你有動啦但是沒人看到大家就覺得是不是你沒動好我還是希望不要變成是被質疑或被讓大家自己去面對這件事情很重要接下來我們有請國發會的"},{"start":12099.409,"end":12113.693,"text":"主權基金是民眾黨的政見而且在上個會期我們提出法案上一屆吳欣怡委員也提出法案所以現在突然間本來"},{"start":12115.188,"end":12133.459,"text":"行政院給我們的答案就是我們已經有了然後央行繼續把外匯存體委員會投資比例提高就好了而且國發基金跟台商公司也有了怎麼現在又冒出來支持所謂的主權基金我想問一下這是百年大計還是現在只是應付立法院或者是應付關稅的緩兵之計"},{"start":12136.482,"end":12146.031,"text":"我想那個院長其實他在院長是隨口說說嗎不是他是說衡量現在多大的財力今年1月你給我的報告還是沒有必要"},{"start":12148.07,"end":12174.918,"text":"應該是說其實這個議題我們一直都有在研議所以三四個月突然間大變化沒有是因為因為現在的國家的財力產業發展還有國際有需要了突然間變得有需要也不是就是卓院長因為其實也是因應另外一個立法委員他在質詢的時候那卓院長其實有說我實習了一年了也沒有聽到你們正確的回答好 直接在那個等一下總裁我們民眾黨的版本是主權基金運用"},{"start":12176.846,"end":12197.432,"text":"所謂的你的外匯存底我知道你一直抵死不從但是外匯存底裡面我們的版本是大概抓10%也就是500多億請問總裁從你的理解裡面你認為主權基金它應該有的規模大概是多少這個我沒有辦法回答你們預計的規模是多少國發會呢"},{"start":12205.123,"end":12221.218,"text":"目前 如果前十大的話 妳的構想是多少如果前十大的話大概都會有大概有幾千億不過他們每個組員已經開始的時候我們有五百億的話大概排名第三十名啦但是以你們之前告訴我說台山公司的部分它只有四百億台幣啦"},{"start":12221.958,"end":12247.006,"text":"連10億都不到 因為台山基金不是家族權基金的所以我的意思是說你們之前跟我說台山已經有啦其實如果我們要做資金的來源的確要立專法所以我希望我們民眾黨的版本我們希望跟你們討論我們放在中央銀行法裡面修因為我們認為專法就叫做患不濟疾而且專法可能就是以拖待變的藉口"},{"start":12247.546,"end":12261.892,"text":"中央銀行不想要自己管,但是借他的錢沒意見但是借他的錢拿出來用的話,他要有償嘛,總裁要有償嘛,不能給你無償借用嘛你要有償,那請問如果我們真的要撥這些錢出來的話,國發會還有央行,你們對這筆錢要用舉債的方式發債嗎?"},{"start":12269.537,"end":12294.683,"text":"對啦 所以也就是說我們要發債來跟你借錢就對了那個就是說他因為主權財富基金財富分伍的規模應該是跟中央銀行的資產入債比還有分開規模多少規模多少基金不用的方式基金還款的方式你們有答案了嗎國發會央行總裁已經講了啦他不會無償借你錢啦你是要發債嗎"},{"start":12295.723,"end":12322.033,"text":"委員其實各界還有不同的想法跟看法所以你們只是隨口說說不是我們要凝聚社會的共識那我們社會的共識我們這個版本已經提出來三四年了很多的內容都已經公開很久了可以參考我們的版本可以討論但是之前說不行的理由現在不存在了就以後不要再拿出來鬼扯了好嗎是因為其實也"},{"start":12323.213,"end":12342.844,"text":"情勢變了所以主權基金是政府考慮的內容但是不能去否定大家對於主權基金這樣子的規劃我們會集各界的意見我們來通盤考量所以我還是講這是百年大計不要做成緩兵之計也就是說主權基金是一個國家長期發展很重要的"},{"start":12344.325,"end":12364.713,"text":"來源 尤其是像其他國家已經有成功的案例我們怎麼樣讓他不要像國發基金一樣投資一些亂七八糟血本無歸的你就算了 還投資到一些犯罪基金來有一些狀況 所以要更完整的管理 尤其是由央行來做把關 我們是比較放心的 好嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員的質詢 下一位請王世堅委員質詢"},{"start":12390.15,"end":12392.332,"text":"我一向認為央行有兩個特權第一"},{"start":12411.54,"end":12435.974,"text":"說謊第二插手會試為什麼很簡單維持匯率的穩定對於我們是以出口為導向的國家而言那太重要了我們出口的金額佔我們台灣的出口佔整個GDP的60.82我們很清楚"},{"start":12437.622,"end":12464.928,"text":"數十年來我們台灣就是出口導向的國家因為我們台灣沒有天然資源嘛我們沒有油沒有煤沒有稀土金屬我們靠的就是我們台灣人的智慧努力勤勞所以我們這樣子加工製造出口那這是正確的事情啊所以央行來保護"},{"start":12467.977,"end":12489.928,"text":"這個匯市的穩定是正確的所以我認為在這一個部分那美國當然他是提美國就是說希望這些貿易夥伴不要藉著匯率政策來從事不公平貿易但是他祭出三個標準而這三個標準要通通達到"},{"start":12491.61,"end":12508.778,"text":"才叫做他們所謂的他叫做我們是操縱匯率國所以他才要用高關稅來懲罰但是這三個這是我今天要請教你的第一項我們沒話講他說貿易順差在200億美元這個我們沒話講他說第二點說巨額的經常性"},{"start":12518.582,"end":12544.722,"text":"經常漲的順差他說順差金額高過GDP的3%這個部分我們現在也超過了這個我是沒話講但是第三點我們這個淨值的部分我們不是都整天都在買匯每天都在買匯我們是為了匯率的穩定我們往往也賣匯不是嗎所以在這一個部分我認為淨額的部分這個"},{"start":12549.022,"end":12574.218,"text":"我覺得我們努力而且有操作的空間之下所以我認為我們不必不必為美國之命侍從因為他訂了三項的標準那我們在這當中當然我們要為我們全民為我們國家的生計著想所以我認為第三點我不曉得第三點"},{"start":12577.168,"end":12601.74,"text":"這個我們重複進外匯這個部分我們有超過嗎就我知道這樣是沒有嘛不是嗎委員分析的非常正確就是說因為我們第一項第二項我們長期以來我們就都是超過了那第三項的這個部分呢你剛剛也講到就是說事實上中央銀行呢前一陣子都是在賣匯"},{"start":12603.101,"end":12607.085,"text":"現在因為你也強調是進額 他也是強調進額 沒有錯所以也就是說中央銀行也不是說遵守因為我們也有我們的mandate 我們也有我們的職責所以剛剛委員做這樣的分析確實是沒有錯的 是沒有錯的"},{"start":12623.314,"end":12639.611,"text":"所以我是希望說中央銀行現在的首要任務就是要頂住頂住各方的壓力頂住各方的譴責罵聲我覺得就是簡單講中央銀行繼續做"},{"start":12643.975,"end":12648.537,"text":"過去幾十年來你們該做的那個委員分析的是沒有錯我們會接受你的建議也就是我剛剛說的那兩項那兩項你該做"},{"start":12660.001,"end":12670.39,"text":"就是要去存第二點對於說這個主權基金的事情我的看法導致認為我認為啦我們有這麼龐大5838億的外匯存底那麼其實"},{"start":12676.776,"end":12689.293,"text":"如果要設主權基金我們當然用外匯存體這是理所當然只是我非常同意說外匯存體不能無償撥用而且也應該先立專法"},{"start":12693.379,"end":12698.701,"text":"所以這一個部分我不曉得你的看法怎麼樣你的看法還是認為說這個是不是財政部國外的例子說財政部先去發債券那由財政部再來撥款那你的看法呢"},{"start":12709.344,"end":12723.074,"text":"是 我覺得委員你所分析的跟我們的報告應該是幾乎是差不多這個同樣的意見啦事實上你的分析是沒有錯的啦是沒有錯的用外匯存底來成立這是正確的這是正確的事情你看像我們鄰近的國家 韓國 馬來西亞 香港"},{"start":12733.201,"end":12743.451,"text":"他們都是 除了中國以外他們馬來西亞 香港 韓國不但用外匯存頂而且他們這個組織機構他們這幾年來他們的操作都很成功"},{"start":12748.816,"end":12764.587,"text":"更何況我們外匯存底因為為了安全跟穩定而言我們那個資息其實不高啦我們平均大概2.6%嘛那你看這幾個國家你看人家連香港喔連香港"},{"start":12765.54,"end":12784.113,"text":"他獲利都大概5.8%左右5.8%左右你看在我這一份的說明這是引用經濟日報香港香港他們這20年期間啊竟然都可以維持5.8%的報酬率等於是我們這個"},{"start":12786.424,"end":12807.145,"text":"外匯存底平均支息的兩倍以上所以這個部分我希望說我們央行就堅持住這一點就是堅持不要無常包容就好但是要由外匯存底來這個成立這個國家發展基金那至於組織機關"},{"start":12809.403,"end":12830.769,"text":"提了這四個機關我不是認為說那兩個機關就不好不是啦另外那兩個機關齁其實有他們努力的地方但是我認為由央行或者財政部來做組織機關這個比較精準啦比較精準因為畢竟國發會"},{"start":12833.069,"end":12853.263,"text":"跟這個經濟部他們有時候思考必須比較活躍也會比較跳躍式啦但是在這個主權基金這個部分的維護管理控制的部分我還是認為要央行跟財政部"},{"start":12853.883,"end":12880.875,"text":"但是我看到你們兩央行跟財政部的報告裡面你們兩個都推來推去都好像互相都不太願意所以這個部分總裁你看法呢事實上委員的這個過想事實上跟我們裡面好像是沒有講得很清楚我們意思就是說事實上你成立了主權基金的時候你上面會有一個board"},{"start":12882.014,"end":12897.595,"text":"有一個Board有一個就是說是就像董事會或理事會那在這裡面呢中央銀行會介入中央銀行會參與會參與那其他部會其他的部會也可以參與"},{"start":12899.732,"end":12902.854,"text":"所以你就說那個財政部事實上財政部也要參與啊莊營郎也不容辭所以莊營郎只是參與我們也可以參與那這樣的意思誰來主導所以這個問題就在這裡也就是說就我們的立場來看的話呢就是說主權基金這是政府的"},{"start":12920.828,"end":12925.916,"text":"那政府的中央銀行是可以參與,但是我們應該是由政府自己來參與他是由他來主掌"},{"start":12934.918,"end":12959.157,"text":"中央銀行就是政府的一個重大部門中央銀行不能置外於政府所以政府來主導是它政府的哪一個單位中央銀行主責還是財政部那這個就由行政院來決定了行政院決定所以行政院怎麼決定總裁你這邊跟財政部這邊就怎麼接受"},{"start":12961.089,"end":12988.82,"text":"對啊應該是啊應該是這樣我認為在這個部分喔既然外匯存底是由央行來主導主控那我希望央行在這個部分能夠更主動一點來更主動一點當然財政部也有很多這一部分的專業的人才但是所以啊我推崇財政部跟央行但是互相就不要"},{"start":12989.82,"end":13002.546,"text":"這麼客氣啦 不要互相推來推去啦 好嗎那外匯的部分 我希望你堅持到底好不好好 委員的建議非常好 謝謝你好 謝謝委員質詢 下一位是林思明委員質詢請"},{"start":13020.681,"end":13027.224,"text":"謝謝主席總裁先喝口水啦你面前出現沒關係 慢慢來我請楊總裁楊總裁請"},{"start":13042.678,"end":13050.862,"text":"總裁好 辛苦了啦因為這個議題太重要了 還是要救救總裁總裁我們新台幣對美元的匯率從4月24號的32.529一路走到5月5號昨天的收盤價昨天是30.295元已經升值超過兩塊"},{"start":13068.329,"end":13089.815,"text":"總裁也在5月5號下午召開記者會做出七點說明表示說最近新台幣的匯率的急劇波動主要的原因是因為外資匯入資金投資台股以及廠商因新台幣升值的預期心理而增加美元的供給"},{"start":13091.835,"end":13110,"text":"總裁你知不知道我們中華民國的央行跟其他國家的央行最獨特的差異是什麼可能你不知道我告訴你答案那就是中華民國的央行也是雙總裁制"},{"start":13111.578,"end":13127.489,"text":"那怎麼說呢?因為我看到你在5月5號記者會後,我們的總統,另外一位總裁,也就是賴清德總統,他不落你後,他接著發布了五點談話,總裁你了解我們賴總統五點談話的內容嗎?"},{"start":13130.711,"end":13155.569,"text":"你了解他五點談話的內容嗎後來我也稍微有看了一下稍微了解了我也稍微看了一下我想主要總統在五點談話中說新台幣最近的急劇升值其中一個原因就是因為有政治人物竟然鎖定匯率議題來炒作導致市場被誤導"},{"start":13156.61,"end":13179.817,"text":"以及非理性的預期心理總統這樣說總裁我看您發布的七點談話中並沒有談到這一點什麼政治人物介入來談論匯率炒作的議題所以總統的話不在你的七點的說明之中"},{"start":13180.937,"end":13208.434,"text":"這是我們央行分析的疏漏還是根本沒有這個原因存在總統後面講的我跟委員說明一下剛剛你講到的就是說有兩位總裁我也覺得很驚訝那個就是說有兩個總裁那不 所以我就說有一點你這個好像有一個暗示"},{"start":13209.966,"end":13235.962,"text":"就我的解讀啊你的暗示就是說周恩來的總裁他背後有一個指揮他的另外一個總裁要是讓新來幣貶就貶讓他新來幣升就升我在這一個場合呢我跟委員鄭重的聲明絕對沒有這回事絕對沒有這回事"},{"start":13239.403,"end":13256.571,"text":"那我請教你就總統在一個談話那他講說是有政治人物就匯率的議題鎖定匯率議題來炒作那我請教你因為你的七點談話裡面沒有嘛那你看到哪一位政治人物在炒作匯率的議題"},{"start":13257.671,"end":13274.618,"text":"有嗎我跟委員報告就是說因為在炒作的不是說炒作我就說是市場所以我們用說市場評論人因為每一個都可以當作市場評論人不是政治人物嗎這要講清楚啊沒有政治人物嘛你回答我"},{"start":13281.061,"end":13299.155,"text":"應該我是覺得就是說只要就說是評論了這個議題的話呢那都是包括在我們的這個市場評論人員是啊對那根本是誰是誰是誰我們沒有看到吧沒有任何政治人物去炒這個規律的議題"},{"start":13301.856,"end":13327.841,"text":"所以我其實我會這樣暗示我是要告訴那個總裁總統似乎不應該去干預這樣的央行的獨立性他去講說這個匯率炒作是因為有政治人物炒作你總統的層級你去干預央行的整個對匯率的這個整個判斷要如何來這個穩定我們的匯率總統他要出來說明他要出來講話嗎"},{"start":13329.921,"end":13351.302,"text":"他要蓋密你嗎?他要暗示你嗎?這個就是說委員的一個解讀啦不過我要尊重央行的草蘭地位剛剛我也已經就是說鄭重的一個聲明沒有兩位總裁啦這個一直到這裡 沒有就好謝謝 謝謝總裁我想我也看到"},{"start":13352.283,"end":13372.604,"text":"當新台幣兌美元在5月5號早上升破30元的時候登日最高是29.59下午我們央行才終於出來對外喊話那本席可不可以認定新台幣兌美元匯價的洋金融防線就是30元"},{"start":13374.979,"end":13391.11,"text":"我剛剛也有一個委員在提到這個彭淮南彭淮南彭淮南彭淮南的防線我也就說我從來沒有聽我們前總裁呢他提到他有他的"},{"start":13391.71,"end":13417.069,"text":"他的防線你的因為我現在觀察你的那然後呢就是說你的你的我現在我在這邊回答的時候呢我也就否定了就是說確實都沒有說我更具體的問你啦就是到今年年底到年底喔我們央行啊對這個新台幣的美元的匯價匯率價的紅燈底線是否就是1比30"},{"start":13422.038,"end":13432.403,"text":"我一直在強調就是說中央銀行不能報名牌事實上這個名牌也不是真的是名牌因為這個是由供需來決定"},{"start":13441.067,"end":13464.973,"text":"供需來決定那中央銀行適時的做一些調節讓匯率能夠動態穩定我們的職責就是這樣子所以你要講到就是說是要升到哪裡或是貶到哪裡不懂不曉得今天大家會有這個疑慮因為我們看到這一次的匯率突然的"},{"start":13466.773,"end":13492.078,"text":"會升值那麼快大家一個疑慮喔是不是央行啊你是不是一開始就一路的開綠燈只是你沒有想到說竟然衝破30的這樣一個紅燈的底線我還是一直在強調的就是說就是因為他的預期心理太強烈了那中央銀行呢就是說我們有事實調整但是呢這個事實調整呢底線呢"},{"start":13496.341,"end":13510.42,"text":"就是說這個調整就是說是因為就疫情心理太過強烈了但是我說是或我們看這個結果但是就是說是當然就是說是市場的一個shock"},{"start":13511.081,"end":13515.903,"text":"兩塊錢但是下來了以後我們總覺得我們中央銀行的一個我們因為就是說這個能量已經釋放出去了就是說預期心理已經釋放了所以我們的操作就比較它的供需是接近於平衡我們的操作就比較比較比較容易其實你一直沒有回答我的"},{"start":13532.33,"end":13535.052,"text":"所以我就說這個不是在報名牌啊所以我剛剛在回答另外一個委員的時候我就說最好就是說"},{"start":13556.269,"end":13567.212,"text":"因為委員是重要的人物 你的意願都足以影響這個會事好啦 總裁好你不演講就好啦 因為市場都在看市場還是因為你不講 市場還是繼續在議題好啦 這問題講到這裡就好了 就讓大家去猜吧"},{"start":13578.755,"end":13594.524,"text":"另外我們看到新台幣走深這個議題總裁你表示說美國沒有提出要求沒有沒有絕對沒有我剛剛在第一個就是說我在澄清然後一個聲明我就一直在講就說絕對沒有你聽我問你的問題"},{"start":13597.626,"end":13619.775,"text":"賴總統他也表示說台美關稅談判沒有觸及匯率的議題但主任長他昨天在總諮詢的時候他卻說台美關稅談判可能列匯率為談判的範圍說可能喔因為因為你會對我現在問你的立場所以我要我也藉這個機會來說明你是拒絕還是會派人去匯這個談判我們"},{"start":13626.498,"end":13644.622,"text":"長久以來因為美國的匯率報告我們是跟他討論的對象所以我們基本上我們每年都會最少都是會有兩次的討論討論的內容是什麼討論的內容就是說全球的總體經濟環境是怎麼樣"},{"start":13650.703,"end":13663.976,"text":"美國的經濟情況是怎麼樣台灣的經濟情況是怎麼樣那匯率的情況是怎麼樣大概就是這樣子我們是每年匯率的議題每年都會討論會 會 會我們都會正式因關稅談判所以我跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":13672.424,"end":13677.293,"text":"剛好就這個時候剛好就這個時候就關稅的談判沒有沒有我就說意思就是說事實上這個是Regular"},{"start":13685.546,"end":13711.027,"text":"是經常性的啦 對啦 是正常性的啦我們每年都是兩次 最少是兩次那我們隨時都會可以跟他們溝通的這個有利於我們國人 有利於中小企業的各種規定好 謝謝 謝謝我還在強調就是說 中央銀行跟美國財政部呢我們的溝通都是非常的順暢好 謝謝好 謝謝林市民委員的質詢下一位請圖全紀委員質詢"},{"start":13723.117,"end":13724.96,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那麻煩請一下我們楊總裁總裁請"},{"start":13735.701,"end":13764.922,"text":"土耳其早總裁那今天應該很多人都跟你討論有關匯率的問題那當然我們也很多要提出可是我這邊還有自己選區比較重要的來跟總裁這邊來請託那我們桃園市大園盧竹地區桃園航空城機場園區特定區土地改良區段徵收案那這個案子總裁應該知道吧我也知道"},{"start":13765.662,"end":13792.815,"text":"那這當然是配合國家重大建設辦理的都市開發計畫那這個也是涉及我們數萬人民家園財產這個案子從2010年到現在已經十幾年了那當初我們政府是承諾先建後簽的方式鼓勵大家放棄家園拆除房屋把土地交給國家做建設那當然我們國家也承諾要蓋新房子給他們成構"},{"start":13794.035,"end":13815.867,"text":"或者發土地讓他們自建可是總裁那現在重劃區的居民這些徵收戶面臨一個問題那就是我們桃園市蓋的新房現在完工準備讓售還有重建的街廓土地也分配好準備要給他們蓋新房子可是現在他們要跟銀行"},{"start":13817.528,"end":13840.362,"text":"貸款申請買屋或蓋房的這些貸款的時候發現現在貸不到錢那2月份的時候我們那時候主責航空城計畫的那時候我們政務委員是陳金德陳金德政務委員那時候在召開25次專案小組會議的時候有協調他有表示說要協調我們"},{"start":13841.483,"end":13868.491,"text":"央行跟金管會針對貸款陳書的限制與優先核貸的可行性那不知道總裁這一部分有來幫我們這些徵收物來協助是啦我想就是說第一個就是說他受到了限制因為現在就是說專業銀行有對選擇性信用管制有一些的限制那除了這個以外呢"},{"start":13868.951,"end":13894.67,"text":"事實上呢有一些的部分呢自然人他如果說沒有第一戶的話沒有自己的房子的那些事實上呢那些都沒有受到限制這是第一點那第二點呢如果說他後面的這些他有他以前都有房子啦那現在是因為就是說這個要搬進去發生一些的就是說他受到了限制那我們呢中央銀行這個我記得啊"},{"start":13895.55,"end":13898.872,"text":"桃園市政府都有發函給我們中央銀行在陳委員那邊討論的時候我們也有參與所以第一個我們有回覆桃園市政府"},{"start":13913.758,"end":13930.626,"text":"這個議題那其中呢我們強調的是什麼強調就是說對如果說有問題的話因為每一個房貸戶他的個案都不一樣啊不是說所有的你這些的裡面的這些的他的那個個案都是一致的"},{"start":13931.306,"end":13951.713,"text":"如果說個案都是一致而且是需要幫忙的那當然是沒有問題問題是在於說他每一戶每一戶的情況都不太一樣所以呢我們就有一個有一個全變我們有一個全理的方法個案如果你有問題的話桃園市政府呢整個收集起來來給我們讓我們來協助"},{"start":13955.954,"end":13982.342,"text":"就是這樣子總裁其實你針對這部分我也知道你們的回函但是你們其實你們的回函針對我們航空城這些居民其實它是本身既有的排除規定不然其實它甚至這個安置住宅的時候還是受到現代令的管制所以我剛剛才會一直在我剛剛才一直在強調就是說因為每戶每戶的情況都不太一樣"},{"start":13983.442,"end":14008.579,"text":"那所以呢也就是說你針對每一戶就是說受到他合理的我們需要幫忙的在裡面的假設說好200戶那裡面呢有100戶或是50戶他是確實是受到就是說他是應該要我們來協助的那你就把他抱過來好那總裁我也說明一下那航空城裡面這個居民他的情況是比較特殊他現在是"},{"start":14009.439,"end":14028.32,"text":"當初你國家重大建設就是他就是以一屋換一屋的方式把自己現有的房子換成政府興建的安置住宅而且是採取先買再拆的方式是真的有實質換屋的需求他並不是買新房所以"},{"start":14028.88,"end":14052.535,"text":"你們的切結規定是要求賣舊屋 賣土地那跟我們航空城居民拆舊屋 交土地的狀態不一樣那請問這種買新拆舊的狀態是不是也可以接受在現代定的規範可以不受現代定的規範我就說嘛 每一個個案都不大一樣嘛"},{"start":14053.555,"end":14082.393,"text":"因為這個是航空城裡面它的樣態因為你們裡面的規範是一屋換一夫但是因為你們規範是賣舊屋賣土地但是我要講的是航空城它是特別是拆舊屋交土地所以這一部分你們這個規範一定要讓他們知道它是配合我們航空城是配合國家重大建設跟你們一般投資客他為了去"},{"start":14083.214,"end":14090.71,"text":"去投資買房賺錢的形態不一樣所以這個你們應該要規範在排除現代定之外"},{"start":14092.262,"end":14113.82,"text":"我們也有協處措施這個總裁部分你幫我們研議一下一定要針對他這個是國家重大建設他並不是去買房要去賺這個錢他是完全配合政府所以針對你們這個規範你要針對航空城這些徵收物來放寬請總裁來趕快幫我們研議一下謝謝圖委員的質詢下一位請王鴻薇委員質詢請"},{"start":14127.749,"end":14132.853,"text":"好謝謝主席我請央行 楊總裁好總裁好 王委員早剛才齁 我們陳玉珍委員"},{"start":14150.154,"end":14156.515,"text":"代理那個召委主席之後讓他坐回來他說這個楊金龍總裁實在很不善於說謊他說只要你一涉及到說謊就結結巴巴包含在記者會還有包括呢剛才我們林思敏委員說有沒有楊金龍防線那總裁竟然說有沒有這個彭南華防線"},{"start":14175.959,"end":14201.313,"text":"所以總裁我覺得我們還是應該要為所當為 言所當言總裁今天討論到國家主權基金我看到央行的報告裡面在最後的部分這個就重點了意思說央行對於成立主權基金是持正向態度但是"},{"start":14202.213,"end":14222.828,"text":"不能由外匯存底直接無償撥用所以這個是我們中央銀行的態度這個部分我是肯定的也希望我們總裁能夠守住央行防線主權基金當然不能由外匯存底直接的來撥用"},{"start":14225.478,"end":14230.9,"text":"最近我們面對美國的貿易戰經濟部長郭志輝說未來十年我們要投資美國兩千億美元我很擔心這個會不會跟主權基金會有任何的相關聯"},{"start":14244.685,"end":14260.342,"text":"然後呢這兩千億美元我們很多人都在問啊兩千億美元錢從哪裡來我們擔心有人動腦筋動到了我們的外匯存底的身上所以總裁在這邊可不可以給我們一個承諾第一"},{"start":14260.922,"end":14279.012,"text":"主權基金不要由外匯存底直接無償撥用這個是報告第二未來如果有兩千億美元要去投資美國解決有關於美國的貿易戰也不能動用外匯存底"},{"start":14280.112,"end":14308.724,"text":"總裁可不可以做出這樣的承諾那當然啊就是說那個主權基金我們就是說無償不能無償多用嘛那另外你就說是就是說要投資美國兩千億的這個嘛那當然就不可能啊不能夠直接拿紋外匯存你絕對是多餘的不然的話這個大家都隨便喊價嘛兩千億變三千億反正我們有五千八百億可以用另外總裁請問一下我們持有美國"},{"start":14309.904,"end":14322.191,"text":"美債到底是多少我們上因為就是說上一次在講就是說是是佔的比重有多少我要這個數字金額多少我們的有沒有3000億如果說是公債的話如果說我們純粹就公債的話沒有3000億"},{"start":14338.151,"end":14358.767,"text":"純粹就公債的話 美債的話那就要包 因為我們有一些的我們有一些的那個我們有一些的那個債券呢它不是公債的而是另外的 譬如說我舉一個例子我們也有持有BIS它的一個發行的債券那是以美元做計價的"},{"start":14359.548,"end":14365.072,"text":"那這個就不是這個就不是公債啦就不是美國的公債啊所以我就說如果嚴格來定義的話呢我們持有美國公債的話呢是應該就是低於三千億以下那大概多少呢低於三千億是多少這個我私下再說這是根據美國財政部的這個他的這個資料來源是到今年的年初我們是持有美國政府公債"},{"start":14389.848,"end":14416.207,"text":"前第11名金額2900億美元這個數字對的但是我跟委員報告我要澄清一點這個數據是包括中央銀行跟民間部門的所以也不是說這個2900多億美元我就中央銀行的部分來請教總裁因為其實現在很多人都在關心也就是擔心一件事情"},{"start":14417.068,"end":14441.484,"text":"就是所謂的海湖莊嚴協議這裡面提及到就是要讓外國投資美國債券的可以轉換成百年長期債券甚至是零利率所以我想請問中央銀行我現在不管民間的中央銀行所持有的美國政府公債"},{"start":14443.065,"end":14455.591,"text":"當到期的時候如果他把轉換成非常長期比如說百年長期債券尤其現在提出所謂的零利率債券央行會不會斷然拒絕"},{"start":14457.439,"end":14464.602,"text":"我跟委員報告啦就是說這個議題呢我們基本上我們在我們在我們新聞稿裡面呢我們講了好幾次了沒有這個議題啦這個是就市場的傳聞這個是這個是他這個史蒂文當有這個議題的時候當美國提出來的時候我們會不會斷然拒絕把我們持有的美國債券轉換成"},{"start":14483.39,"end":14486.432,"text":"這樣百年長計債券我跟委員就是說我答覆了因為委員的這是假設性的議題假設性的議題我覺得我也不便在這邊回答這是第一點第二點我們又緊張了你跟卓榮泰院長一樣啊不不不"},{"start":14507.945,"end":14525.397,"text":"我總覺得就是說我們會密切注意因為事實上這個所以我以前我才會很那個因為我就不佔據時間因為今天關心匯率啦還關心那個美債的我們委員非常多"},{"start":14526.158,"end":14539.814,"text":"不過這樣的話我就來考慮來研究一下那也歡迎大家提供給我意見我們看怎麼樣用從法規的面向去阻止未來有可能的罰身"},{"start":14541.335,"end":14542.156,"text":"謝謝委員對這個議題的關心所以總裁也很贊成"},{"start":14576.825,"end":14579.806,"text":"主席我請總裁總裁請市委員早 姚總裁早"},{"start":14595.049,"end":14607.616,"text":"我講給你講,你有沒有困難?沒有啊,沒困難啊,沒困難你不是用台語,人就不會這樣嗎?沒有啦,我幫你報告啦事實上啊,我國語沒講到連頓,我的台語也沒講到連頓啊因為齁,我們的腔調齁,台南的腔調跟我們的腔調又不大一樣你德文?我屏東"},{"start":14619.523,"end":14644.381,"text":"畢竟結婚一樣沒有啦,他還說我沒什麼感情我今天沒什麼感情兩件事要來跟你討論好,那你,那你,好你先說好,那你我們古早人說的,水不寒,無意地相撇水不燃,無意地滾煮所以看你在印度的過程中,我感覺你擔當很多啦所以我是很欠佩你謝謝,當然有些我看你過的啦"},{"start":14646.082,"end":14656.411,"text":"五個的報告你可以做一些說明這沒問題台灣的利益跟美國的利益衝突的時候請教你你會站在什麼人的利益當然啊 都是我們的利益啊我們的利益是什麼人的利益全民的利益啊我今天就基金跟匯率你可以報告說基金"},{"start":14671.977,"end":14679.424,"text":"不應該有外匯,不是說不應該,是說外匯絕對不能無所謂給你們提供的嘛是是是,對啦對啦,沒有不對啦那這樣就是說,這次的談判,其實是我們的老總統因為他看美國人一直找不到門路,最後美國的工資"},{"start":14693.72,"end":14703.35,"text":"如果要求無息不要說一百年 五十年 或者是三十年 二十年只要是沒理息要求我們高級的工程把它轉換過來"},{"start":14705.824,"end":14716.79,"text":"這個發生的時候你如何面對我跟委員報告基本上你這是假設議題不是假設喔不不不 我要再跟你報告美國的財政部你的立場很清楚就是外匯不能無雙使用所以我認為你很好啊所以如果是這樣"},{"start":14732.578,"end":14734.501,"text":"總統要求無線購買美國的工資的時候 你是要選擇下台還是選擇尊重我跟委員報告"},{"start":14744.844,"end":14758.337,"text":"我跟他說總統不會有這種要求你有比我更了解你讓他更了解,我看那是另外一個議題我跟你說,你問單純出家中我跟你說,總統就是有可能這樣做嘛"},{"start":14766.704,"end":14789.174,"text":"空氣不來風啦 這個基金啦 其實不在於台灣啦 台灣人很多 台灣人比較淫褐但是 監督的機制如果沒有出來 這八檔的 最高級的 我跟你講 像太陽能光電那樣游到整個燈去 綠色綠色的出來 這是專民 不能忍受的好 來 給你就是這個法律啦 很困難 我很多 這裡的中小企業 我過去也做過什麼"},{"start":14796.637,"end":14817.481,"text":"這半的高趴 坦白說在我揮草 揮過頭面不用講忍耐 大家可以渡過渡過之後當然你有你的內部 你有你的盤算但是關稅大概就是25%啦企業對美國這些賣家來說收到的 應該差不多是一人一半啦所以吸收一半12.5% 恆恆你這個9.5%就可以大分 率頂加算了"},{"start":14825.442,"end":14843.994,"text":"企業的危難就是說我可以不談我拚四五十年了我三台車沒問題啊但是我請我的員工一個員工一個家庭我不能讓失業現在企業的煩惱是這個社會責任跟社會得益加在兩天失業的問題OK來 現在我請教你很嚴肅的很多企業叫我說一定要怎樣因為大家在問的都這樣沒重要是這個"},{"start":14853.84,"end":14876.959,"text":"因為他所有的頂端 整個年底就說你今天如果可以做一個保證這樣他們到明年第一季所有的頂端 他可以去安排他的風險要怎麼來拼所以我正式在這裡跟你請教一個問題到今年十二月底 十二月三十一以前新代表二十九口本 你想得到嗎"},{"start":14881.221,"end":14891.586,"text":"非常簡單的問題對啦 我說匯率它是有升有貶啦我知道啦 因為你這個答案 我沒有給你為難喔是是是我沒有給你為難 因為你今天這個答案出來 他們可以告到明年第一季他知道他要怎麼撇不用風險 這樣台灣可以往來10個月"},{"start":14904.712,"end":14920.616,"text":"不過不如我跟委員報告啦事實上到現在30塊已經有很多人你不要要求很多人總裁啊 你跟總裁請教一下你對疫情29個月收的到嗎這個我要跟委員報告這個我沒有辦法回答你"},{"start":14930.939,"end":14950.377,"text":"我們這裡所有的黨主席,可以你告訴我嗎?我已經問完了十二月三十一疫情,有總裁說二十九個月,代表二十九個月,他不一定收得到,他如果收不到了,你現在也沒辦法保證我沒有說我收得到,收不到了,我只是說你這個問題,我沒辦法跟你回答"},{"start":14957.128,"end":14970.219,"text":"我沒有說我收不收不收,這是兩位事,這個是兩位事,所以……總裁,你告訴我,這兩個你講的一個問題,就是有機的心理,所以不一定是馬祖豪,要自己手上手來我的炮喔?我會,我會再給他回顧"},{"start":14977.965,"end":14991.359,"text":"你一直在這裏著墨這個匯率你是立法委員的大員所以你一直在這裏說話會影響市場的預期所以我告訴你不要在這個時候一直在著墨"},{"start":14998.175,"end":15003.341,"text":"今天我告訴你200元就會有議席今天是對30元到29元你還要請求這個50元來賺你說20元給你 你說19元給我 要不要收工"},{"start":15016.434,"end":15030.379,"text":"不敢不敢不敢 總裁不敢 二十九個月跟二百個月一樣所以正式的答案就是二十九個月他收不掉沒有 我沒有這樣說沒有沒有 那是你的意錯沒有 我沒有這個意思"},{"start":15037.262,"end":15044.75,"text":"你沒這個意思 你說什麼 台南外交有兩種意思所以喔 我要慎重跟委員來討論在國會議場 討論會議比較serious"},{"start":15056.643,"end":15074.957,"text":"這要謹慎 要謹慎 要節制你不知道我出高雄有一點兩趴三趴 丟錢變丟錢耶我都知道 這事情我都知道委員你...我當然關心我當然關心但是你現在在說的時候 我不是說你關心一定是你害他不是啊 你要這樣說今天你說的那些不值錢就賣了喔我覺得...我覺得...今天你說的那些不值錢就賣了 修來的民間的喔 他就賣了喔"},{"start":15087.094,"end":15105.908,"text":"所以 我跟你說的就是29個月你一定收不掉OK 謝謝我沒有這個意思好 謝謝 謝委員的諮詢下一位請 陳玉珍委員諮詢請蔡玉宇 蔡玉宇 蔡宇文不在陳玉珍委員請諮詢謝謝主席我們讓那個央行總裁休息一下"},{"start":15117.472,"end":15145.812,"text":"那個請主席長主席長我看到這個在總質詢的時候這個我們院長有說啦115年的總算是依照新的裁劃法編列沒錯吧你們說裁劃法要提釋憲對不對已經提了嗎"},{"start":15148.313,"end":15166.939,"text":"已經提出來了就對了會照新的來編政院的發言人李慧芝有說新版財化法裡面地方的政府財源會大幅增加所以會研議優先減劣地方補助款對不對你戴口罩大聲一點我聽不太見"},{"start":15171.851,"end":15178.726,"text":"優先檢列地方補助款優先檢列地方補助款是一般性補助款還是計畫性補助款"},{"start":15180.07,"end":15202.93,"text":"兩個都有兩個都會減劣就對了是不是不是我們新版的財富法第30條第三項有規定啊你知道啊我們有這個規定啊中央政府給予地方政府之一般性補助款向金額不得少於修正實行前一年預算編列數啊意思說一般性補助款你們是不能減的啊但是一般性補助款有很多種啊什麼意思"},{"start":15205.801,"end":15224.118,"text":"一般性補助款的項目非常的多對 我不管一般性補助款有幾種項目但裁判法 新的我們通過這個裁判法有明文規定是 那我們也會違規不得少於修正施行前一年的預算編列數所以你不要遵守我們會遵守所以一般性補助款你不能減你可以減計劃型補助"},{"start":15225.609,"end":15234.964,"text":"我們可以減項目用其他的來彌補啊減什麼項目不同的因為他有很多不同的項目項目沒關係但是金額啊當然這說是金額啊"},{"start":15238.379,"end":15239.48,"text":"請問中央對各地方統籌分配稅款的額度什麼時候會出來?"},{"start":15258.641,"end":15272.926,"text":"什麼時候出來地方才好做他們115年地方的這個編列一些計畫什麼來做什麼時候會出來因為現在已經已經在邊蓋算了4月到5月在邊蓋算了這是財政部的業務請財政部來說明財政部市長什麼時候會出來市長"},{"start":15278.735,"end":15306.357,"text":"就對於這個各縣市的統籌分配款稅的那個額度什麼時候會出來因為第一五年你們在編了嘛地方也要開始那個嘛 準備對 因為現在有兩個問題啦因為現在就是說今年剛好就是因為出口旺盛所以呢 營業稅退稅特別多那另外呢 所留稅我們結算申報延後一個月所以目前啦 我們的裁員是不足的所以我們現在有找這個地方政府來開會"},{"start":15307.478,"end":15322.191,"text":"所以我們目前這個有關這個統籌分稅款這部分現在是目前是有一點打折啦但是等到這個結算申報結束以後有裁員之後我們會全部補足好沒關係那是什麼時候幾月份可以編出來"},{"start":15324.216,"end":15337.311,"text":"幾月 幾月 最慢是八月份啦八月喔 所以八月才可以算最慢 最慢 最慢半應該說這樣 八月以前你會給這個答案我相信應該會早一點八月以前會給這個地方 各個地方因為各個地方也要編他們的計畫各方面要給地方一點時間"},{"start":15343.876,"end":15365.585,"text":"那請問主計總署 你沒有發函給各個縣市還有直轄政府說114年中央對地方政府一般性補助款5月到12月的分配數改為未分配數嘛 對不對就是這個因為你們現在在財務法在做一些有一些總預算啦 總預算也在做救濟嘛 對不對是不是總預算也在做救濟嘛 也在申請這個市縣是不是"},{"start":15367.26,"end":15389.283,"text":"以我們基本來講 本來一般性補助款5到12月本來分配數是10億多現在改成5億多其他改為未分配數那你說要等救濟結果而定是等釋憲 救濟結果是釋憲嗎對等釋憲 如果今年底都沒辦法釋憲呢沒有結果咧這筆錢是要不要分 要不要發出來"},{"start":15390.103,"end":15412.272,"text":"因為這筆我們是對 原來我們 比如以金門來講 十一變五億嘛 十一變五億那你要等救濟結果 如果救濟到原體都沒有視線呢 都沒有結果呢要不要這個五億 就是這個原來的十一變五億這個分不分那到時候再看什麼叫再看看那個三減 要三減哪一項 因為現在三減 要三減636還沒有確認嘛"},{"start":15414.076,"end":15432.346,"text":"不是啊 你這樣子地方怎麼施政呢現在5月到12月要怎麼施政你都給一半 對不對那到底地方不就整個政務會停頓嗎整個都會影響啊所以你什麼時候 有一個時間吧如果到年底都沒有咧所以也是會給是不是 你也是會給"},{"start":15434.767,"end":15462.343,"text":"也不一定會給,也有可能變零就對了有可能變零因為如果說到時候要刪減的話,那就會刪減所以有可能,所以他的本來是50%也可能會變成零嘛那你們如果有這樣方向打算也要早一點讓地方政府知道啊不然地方政府到底他現在5月到12月要怎麼施政嘛是,我們會盡量,盡量這個要早一點嘛,好那接著,謝謝主委長,接著我們請這個總裁辛苦了,總裁"},{"start":15463.942,"end":15465.643,"text":"所以我一開始我的聲明就是說因為我口才不好所以呢會有結紮的現象"},{"start":15490.518,"end":15495.786,"text":"所以也不是說因為我結結巴巴才會言不可忠而且又說我就是因為我不善於說謊才會這樣結結巴巴好像就是說我就是說謊"},{"start":15505.6,"end":15516.544,"text":"沒有啦 沒有說你說謊啦你直接叭叭嘛 就是你不想說謊 但是又不知道怎麼回答嘛有提問也沒有辦法回答沒關係啦 不正義這個齁 來星哥 我要問你實質的問題齁這個 剛剛也很多人問過啦 也沒有所謂的澎懷蘭防線啦也沒有所謂楊金龍防線 也沒有什麼利守30塊大關啦齁這些防線都沒有啦齁那但是 你也知道現在很多這個"},{"start":15530.552,"end":15542.036,"text":"商人出貨商很辛苦對你很嚴重的挑戰那這個台幣升值是不是台美的談判議題這個我們也問了我們也問了那這個這個卓榮泰院長有說未來不敢動我問他的時候他說你看我們在中央是說沒有觸及這個議題卓院長是說"},{"start":15550.579,"end":15551.059,"text":"所以你可以承諾匯率不會是台美談判議題嗎"},{"start":15566.266,"end":15581.225,"text":"不是 我現在又要回過頭來要講就是說事實上我們跟美國財政部有兩次 我剛聽到我剛在講 請問你這一題哪兩次 每年兩次嘛請問分別是什麼 大概是什麼時候因為我們固定是兩次 但是"},{"start":15582.006,"end":15598.275,"text":"我們大部分就是說他的匯率報告出來之前會有一次所以他一年是兩個匯率報告那有固定大概幾月跟美國討論以前他都是在四月中以前一個是在十月中以前"},{"start":15599.155,"end":15614.962,"text":"所以我要跟委員報告就是說事實上我們一直在強調就是說我們跟美國財政部溝通良好我的意思是說什麼就是說我們在這個議題方面我們都互相的信任"},{"start":15616.383,"end":15640.354,"text":"第二點我們隨時有什麼問題要跟他請教的時候我們都隨時都可以去所以熱線不斷沒有問題有熱線就對了中美是跟他們的總裁意思所以我們說溝通良好就是這個意思但是我們的總統也好我們的院長也好都說這次談判是沒有談到匯率是沒有你也說沒有那南韓央行的總裁是說謊"},{"start":15649.278,"end":15670.746,"text":"你認識他嗎?我認識他你認識他?我認識他所以但他說美國有他沒有說什麼施壓啦他就說是不一定是會這樣但是有談到這一題所以我應該要相信你啦不過我跟委員報告啦就是說所以南韓這位央行總裁可能說的不是實話"},{"start":15671.892,"end":15675.855,"text":"我不曉得因為他有說台灣啊他說美國和日本、台灣、馬來西亞也有談到嘛所以要嘛就是耐心的這種說法要嘛就是這個央行的這種說法因為他對我們台灣他不曉得啊"},{"start":15690.988,"end":15693.409,"text":"我也不曉得說他們藍藍有沒有跟他談那他有提到啊反正要嘛就戴總統說謊要嘛就央行我覺得誰說謊誰不說謊我也沒有辦法判斷沒關係我要強調的就是我要講的實話我講的是實話"},{"start":15715.522,"end":15726.67,"text":"你講的是實話 你講的一定是實話 只要不結結巴巴的時候總裁我想請教你一題 最後一題上一次辦了一次匯率報告 上次是11月5號繼續被列為匯率超重國的觀察名單請問這一次你預測會繼續列還是會升級這一次 因為有匯率報告 美國財政部那個"},{"start":15742.364,"end":15751.157,"text":"如果說據他這三個三項標準的話呢我們還是觀察名單啦所以你覺得應該還是會在觀察名單是啦是啦好 謝謝總裁"},{"start":15753.899,"end":15772.675,"text":"好 謝謝陳益智委員的質詢蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉 委員不在林楚英 林楚英 林楚英 委員不在邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉 委員不在鄭振前 鄭振前 鄭振前 委員不在陳冠廷 陳冠廷 請"},{"start":15781.138,"end":15784.094,"text":"你好我們請中央銀行總裁用座頭去"},{"start":15794.827,"end":15822.48,"text":"常委早長總裁好首先我想針對最近新台幣大幅升值的情況來跟總裁來請教看他的影響層面比方說這個近期的這個匯率市場已經從3月底的33塊對1美元到現在是升值到29.6一度啦 一度到29.6所以他短期內的升值的幅度已經接近4%所以有一些媒體他用暴力升值來講到這個對我們出口產業的這個"},{"start":15825.842,"end":15845.892,"text":"那從數據上來看的話對半導體產業來講的話新台幣每升值大概1%台積電的營業利率就會下降大概0.4個百分點所以說如果以五月初的匯率來去計算的話第二季生產可能會造成的匯兌的損失大概是700到864億左右那傳統的製造產業當然更是首當其衝"},{"start":15849.594,"end":15868.959,"text":"所以有台灣的這個機械工業同業工會有警告如果說再繼續升值的話可能會引發這個產業的倒閉潮那不同的產業高科技業傳統產業等等它會有不同的影響我想請教一下這個總裁央行有沒有對不同的產業的具體影響進行全面的評估"},{"start":15870.686,"end":15890.853,"text":"事實上就誠如我剛剛說的事實上30塊也不是現在才第一次碰到不是第一次碰到不是以前就好幾次我跟委員報告事實上108年的下半年都是30塊左右那個時候108年12月31號我的資料是30.106"},{"start":15898.223,"end":15924.632,"text":"在111年12月30號的時候那個年底的匯率是30.708所以還有就是說好幾個事實上就是說30塊這個不是第一次30塊事實上前面以前就好幾次都碰到30塊了所以這個也就是說不必要就是說是"},{"start":15926.236,"end":15934.901,"text":"我的意思不是說不必要 是說這30塊不是第一次所以委員就是說 現在媒體也講到像這個台積電它就虧了 它就損失了780億到800億所以我們都是從"},{"start":15949.128,"end":15965.709,"text":"他現在這樣下來他如果說我們如果說是從剛剛那個以前呢他是從30塊點值到33塊的時候呢那個時候呢都沒有報紙都沒有在分析說他這個是賺了多少錢"},{"start":15966.79,"end":15991.492,"text":"沒有所以呢也就是說企業的一個經營啊他不是在短期的不是就是企業的經營不是在短期他除了他營利之外他同時也必須要避險所以說總裁講的沒有錯就是說企業他除了營利之外他必須要也想著說怎麼樣去避險因為匯率的這個市場他是他是會有波動的那本身就應該要做好一些準備是"},{"start":15991.772,"end":16018.377,"text":"但是工業部門那不同的這個次產業它會受到影響的程度也不同那比如說像是這個螺絲的擴建產業它的平均的這個毛利率是大概15%那如果考量到美國已經實施基礎關稅下那這一波的這個新台幣的急升它可能會造成它的利潤是轉為零甚至是負數那另外一方面科技產業雖然有受到影響就是我們剛才講的利潤"},{"start":16020.757,"end":16035.888,"text":"他的空間比較大而且他有比較強的避險能力為什麼因為就如同剛剛講的他們同時他們整個集團內部一定會有在針對匯損或者匯率的變化來去要做調控的那這樣子講起來的話我就必須要特別強調"},{"start":16036.969,"end":16053.419,"text":"中小企業在匯率避險上面就面臨到這個專業不足還有成本過高的這種困境所以我想請教一下這未來有沒有辦法考慮央行是不是有跟銀行業者合作來提供更友善成本更低的避險方案"},{"start":16055.361,"end":16070.352,"text":"至於就是說這個委員這個諮詢是很對的就是說銀行是不是也可以提供這個中小企業他避險的時候成本會能夠降低一點我想這個是很好的一個建議這個我們會來跟他們來討論討論好不好"},{"start":16074.274,"end":16094.233,"text":"謝謝總裁那拜託再給我30秒我再把農業的部分把它做一個結束那總裁再來就是農業的部分農業部分可能會有一些分化效應為什麼一方面我們特定種類的水果像是蘭花的生產者它會因為國際市場的競爭力因為它的這個匯率的關係它可能會下降而受創但是另一方面畜牧業"},{"start":16095.174,"end":16120.673,"text":"還有這個水產的養殖業它是進口的飼料所以像是玉米黃豆成本降低它可能會受益所以我是說央行應該要去評估這一段匯率的變動對所有農產品國內價格的出口競爭力的進影響好不好提供這樣的相關的這些資訊給我們這樣子未來我們做整體的產業我們就是說委員做這樣的一個建議我們可以start一下啦好 謝謝總裁我們可以start一下"},{"start":16121.474,"end":16145.705,"text":"好 謝謝陳冠廷委員的資訊現在翁曉琳 翁曉琳 翁曉琳委員不在何欣淳 何欣淳 何欣淳委員不在張祺凱 張祺凱 張祺凱委員不在黃國昌 黃國昌 黃國昌委員不在那麼報告委員會 今日登記的發言委員 經已巡打完畢"},{"start":16147.499,"end":16159.354,"text":"現在處理臨時提案總共有一案請議事人員宣讀也請央行的長官看一下這針對你們的提案好不好看一下"},{"start":16161.037,"end":16178.606,"text":"臨時提案案由介於中央銀行對其從業人員提供員工福利優惠存款利率然身為央行所屬的中央印製廠員工卻未享有同等福利恐有差別待遇之嫌考量印製廠員工向來積極配合央行指示"},{"start":16179.286,"end":16204.841,"text":"在工作崗位上鞠躬尽瘁以及过往被视为铁饭碗的国营事业今日亦面临铁饭碗生锈人才流失的难题原要求中央银行应该本与行场一家照顾员工的经营理念提供印制厂员工相同的员工福利优惠存款利率以其留住人才吸引人才提案人罗明才、赖世宝、林德福宣读完毕"},{"start":16205.785,"end":16224.889,"text":"那個現在科技總管報告這個因為我們不夠不夠是不是總裁要不要說明一下好不好就真的這個案子跟我們說明一下看看可以的話就因為他只是提報告而已啦如果可以的話就也不要說因為不要處理但是你只要答應了就可以我們就是說我們也會來聽聽他的意見啦我們會來研議啊我們也會研議這個主題啦好不好就是硬製廠對"},{"start":16235.752,"end":16263.16,"text":"要比照什麼就是說我們會跟中央印製廠的工會來協議一下然後我們來研議看看是這個委員的提議我們來在一個月內來提出書面報告好不好就是你們找印製廠的員工代表談一下然後在一個月內把報告給我們一份就這樣子謝謝"},{"start":16266.616,"end":16288.008,"text":"那麼報告委員會本日會議做如下之決定第一報告及詢答全部完畢第二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會在一週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定"},{"start":16288.968,"end":16315.795,"text":"第三委員林柱英翁曉琳所提的書面報告列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆第四本次會議議程已全部進行完畢假如有不在場委員不提書面質詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理三位"},{"start":16321.903,"end":16328.2,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16658","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16658","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea1a3f2a9ffa30080483679203eefbeec014bfadd538e1bbbf58c8c67674b1d1865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請內政部部長、國家住宅及都市更新中心董事長就「都市更新與危老重建之執行成效及未來展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「都市更新條例增訂第四十四條之一條文草案」案。三、審查委員賴惠員等23人擬具「都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例第三條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。【第一案至第三案綜合詢答並處理法律提案。】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-08","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-08T08:31:32+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-08T11:39:00+08:00","duration":11248,"影片長度":"03:07:28","委員發言時間":"08:31:32 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谢谢议事录确定继续进行本次议程请宣读"},{"start":1986.107,"end":2010.994,"text":"报告事项二邀请内政部部长国家住宅及都市更新中心董事长就都市更新与为老重建之执行成效及未来展望进行专题报告并被质询讨论事项一审查委员牛许婷等17人拟据都市更新条例增订第44条之一条文草案案二审查委员赖会员等23人拟据都市危险及老旧建筑物加速重建条例第三条及第11条条文修正草案案宣读完毕"},{"start":2012.554,"end":2038.198,"text":"本日議程所列報告事項與討論事項我們合併詢答現在介紹在場委員及列席官員首先是張志倫委員黃美惠委員李柏毅委員還有黃婕委員官員部分我們內政部劉思芳部長國土管理署吳興修署長還有我們國家住宅及都更中心花敬群董事長"},{"start":2039.801,"end":2056.818,"text":"還有我們的老朋友法務部參事廖蔣賢好現在我們賴慧如委員今天有過來嗎好那我們提案就暫不先進行說明沒關係我們先直接就請內政部長劉思芳針對今天的題目進行報告"},{"start":2062.523,"end":2080.039,"text":"各位委員大家早主席各位委員女士先生因為今天早上有兩個報告案成了委員會的指示我就把兩個報告案非常簡單的跟大家做一下報告首先是報告有關於都市更新及危勞重建政策的部分"},{"start":2080.7,"end":2105.452,"text":"那因為本部就這個執行成效及未來展望要進行專題報告所以我就先把這個部分跟大家做一個扼要的說明第一個就是有關於都市更新的部分那為了改善都市機體的衰退的問題內政部從健全重要機制解決實務困境強化程序正義等三大面向全面檢討都市更新條例"},{"start":2106.132,"end":2127.754,"text":"那簡稱都更條例在108年公佈修正權文為了強化公辦都更機制及擴大政府的量能在107年制定公佈國家住宅及都市更新中心設置條例並且成立了行政法人國家住宅及都市更新中心那簡稱國家住住中心投入有關於"},{"start":2128.695,"end":2151.764,"text":"公辦都市更新事業的整合投資及實施又為了精進都市更新的推動政策並且訂定了都市更新發展計畫從112年到115年的各項執行策略那有關於持續檢討都市更新相關法令的部分在110年修正公佈都更條例第57條及第65條針對海沙屋或者耐震不足等有危險疑慮的建築物"},{"start":2158.047,"end":2182.13,"text":"地方政府得免經協調程序禁與強制拆除放寬容積額度到1.3倍原建築容積113年修正公佈都更條例第65條放寬實施容積管制前合法建築物的原容積適用範圍協助有危險疑慮建物加速更新第二是有關於持續推動都市更新發展的計畫"},{"start":2183.191,"end":2201.813,"text":"以檢討強化政府主導都市更新機制精進專責機構推動都更模式還有改善民間都市更新輔導機制都更知識推廣及人才培育執行並檢討中高樓層危險建築物都市更新推動機制等五大策略持續來推動"},{"start":2203.888,"end":2225.294,"text":"第三有關於精進簡化都更流程的部分都更條例以簡化作業無爭議者即可免除一定的程序另外已經完成修訂都市更新作業手冊讓作業程序標準化明確化以減少執行的疑義第四延長都更稅捐減徵實施的期限行政院在112年12月29日發布"},{"start":2228.675,"end":2249.235,"text":"命令延长减增房屋税土增税及契税实施期限自112年2月1日至118年1月30日止以鼓励所有权人参与都市更新第五有关推动0403赠灾重建的部分0403赠灾奉行政院指示"},{"start":2249.815,"end":2274.863,"text":"内政部立即成立0403花莲赈灾重建专案办公室辅导花莲县政府健全都更为老重建机制以及成立辅导团目前已经协助天王星大楼及统帅大楼寻自办都更方式重建并且已经成立更新会并取得花艺尊社区北洞全部所有权人同意以公办都更方式办理重建"},{"start":2275.563,"end":2295.283,"text":"第六,有关于都市更新执行成效的部分,截至114年3月底止,全国累计核定的都更案即1222件,成效稳健成长当中。二,在公办都更方面,目前全国招商成功案件即89件,投资金额即6004亿元。"},{"start":2297.405,"end":2325.2,"text":"其中国家住住中心已经完成公开评选并签约案件计14案投资金额达898亿元114年预计公开评选案件计6案预估投资金额有230.1亿元第三每年都更案取得绿建筑标章者占86.43%预计平均每年减碳成效计0.10万公顿"},{"start":2326.755,"end":2355.363,"text":"第四113年訂定大專院校開設都市更新學分學程補捐助要點並且補助了五所大專院校開設都市更新學分學程第二有關圍牢重建的部分為都市建物因為潛在的災害風險加速危險及老舊建築物重建並且改善居住環境在106年5月10日公佈施行都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例"},{"start":2356.403,"end":2372.3,"text":"具申请简单快速核准奖励明确这些优点并且提供税间减免及金融协助等措施鼓励都市计划范围内的维老可以加速重建持续检讨维老条例的相关法令"},{"start":2373.481,"end":2393.109,"text":"109年5月6日因應違老條例三年實成獎勵屆期修正了第3條第6條第8條延長實成獎勵到114年5月11日及新增規模獎勵112年12月6日新增第5條之一明定公有土地及建築物原則參與重建"},{"start":2395.15,"end":2418.286,"text":"114年3月4日修正都市危险及老旧建筑物建筑容积奖励办法第二条及第12条之一扩大原建筑容积的认定范围第二有关于提供建筑物耐震能力评估重建计划成立为老重建辅导团等经费补助以及重建融资信用保证信用保证等协助自108年起"},{"start":2420.868,"end":2442.991,"text":"内政部每年编列7000余万元补助建筑物耐震能力评估,3000万元补助宁定重建计划,2000万元补助各地方政府成立专业辅导团队,培训维老人才总共有2.3万人次,及协助了538件维老重建计划提案的申请。"},{"start":2443.672,"end":2462.54,"text":"并且以中央都市更新基金提拨1亿元作为重建工程融资贷款的信用保证给予民众财务协助迄今核准78件民众贷款信用保证保证金额约1.3亿元第三推广维老重建政策维老重建案稳定成长"},{"start":2463.44,"end":2481.5,"text":"內政部持續每年辦理法令講習透過多元宣傳管道跟產業界的合作宣導危老重建的政策在中央地方政府及各界積極的推動之下到114年3月抵止全國累計完成結構安全性能評估有"},{"start":2481.84,"end":2501.772,"text":"一万九千九百二十八件受理重建计划申请案四千五百零八件核准案有四千一百九十七件重建计划案逐年稳定成长另外国家驻足中心办办理围牢协参案件有十五案另有两案于前期作业阶段"},{"start":2502.492,"end":2521.803,"text":"第四有關協助0403鎮後重建的部分透過危老重建簡便快速的申請程序協助0403花蓮鎮災建築物並且補助地方政府成立輔導團鎮災後立即對受災民眾提供重建評估及相關法令諮詢服務逐步的輔導個案規劃重建"},{"start":2524.705,"end":2541.632,"text":"在未来展望的部分,透过检讨都更及维老重建相关法令及机制,补助地方政府相关经费,以及提供支持民众参与都市更新维老重建,还有透过举办教育讲习增进全民都更知能及知识。"},{"start":2542.412,"end":2566.139,"text":"持续补助大专院校开设都市更新学分学程以提供都更人才的值与量在公办都更已经辅导地方政府成立专案办公室推动公办都更相关政策增加公办都更的效益国家住住中心也持续朝向强化政府推动都市更新量能建构完善民间辅导"},{"start":2566.479,"end":2567.94,"text":"继续的适用范围容积奖励"},{"start":2592.408,"end":2610.896,"text":"機制與項目及配套獎勵措施等修法方向並且持續與外界進行意見交流跟溝通未來的法制作業程序為依序報送大院來審查再來因應有關高齡者及老屋內政部將推動老宅延壽計畫針對無危險疑慮的老舊建宅補助"},{"start":2614.797,"end":2641.964,"text":"民众修缮房屋公共区域及室内空间并且结合卫福部长照3.0使长者在宅安心养老避免患物的困扰同时配合国家净零检探政策会持续与各界沟通内容完备以后将报请行政院核定具以执行以上是有关于第一案在展望的部分以及在检讨过去的部分提供给各位委员女士先生参考"},{"start":2645.547,"end":2656.1,"text":"謝謝 沒關係 第二段我們參酌書面好不好條例不用報告對 條例的部分我們書面的部分來參酌就可以了好 那報告委員會現在謝謝劉思芳部長的報告"},{"start":2657.489,"end":2681.126,"text":"其他單位報告自行參閱並刊登公報現在我們進行詢答委員諮詢前原力做一下幾點宣告第一本會委員發言時間五分鐘必要時延長兩分鐘非本會委員發言時間五分鐘上午十點三十分截止發言登記今天法案處理我們就不處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見沒有好謝謝現在進行詢答我們首先請登記第一位蘇巧慧委員發言"},{"start":2693.444,"end":2696.307,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請劉世芳劉部長劉部長有請今天我們要談這個都市更新的部分那其實我想大家都非常的重視那其實我們可以看到其實在行政院的網站上面呢都市更新條例這個也甚至是一個非常"},{"start":2718.628,"end":2742.617,"text":"行政院列為重要的政策就是希望能夠全面提升都更的量能那部長剛剛也報告很多可是我們再繼續看下去都市更新條例裡面重要修法面向有減民都更程序強化都更審議建立協商平台強化政府主導這四個面向部長你覺得現在是穩健的四個方向都做得很好還是有哪一個方向比較帶加強的嗎"},{"start":2743.897,"end":2748.982,"text":"我想在 不然修法要修哪一個方向在公部門跟民間企業就是有意願推動的這個都更的部分這個部分可能還多做溝通因為這持續要了解有意願 你認為是民間意願不夠嗎不是 有意願"},{"start":2759.411,"end":2773.52,"text":"但是他們對於了解行政程序上面的問題包括容積啦或者是整個的建築法令上面的規範一般人啦比較沒有這個專業的譬如說建築師或者是其他的這些公會了解那麼多那必須要多溝通但是我們也很樂見看到說地方政府"},{"start":2778.603,"end":2795.025,"text":"陸陸續續也都成立有關都市更新的專責單位包括北市新北市都有成立都市更新處那其他有八個縣市政府也成立都市更新的相關的科組我覺得這樣子對民眾有意願的來講的話他們在諮詢層面上可以提供相當好的法令上的支持"},{"start":2795.305,"end":2823.324,"text":"好部長我接受你這段談話不過你現在的講法呢正是我今天想要跟你討論的問題因為從你剛剛的這段談話我中整起來一句話應該是你認為讓我們都市更新加快加大其實是擴大案量也就是擴大讓民間的熟識度以至於進來的案量更大我可以簡化成這樣嗎你是要鼓勵民間更快送大進來以加快都更當然我們不只鼓勵還有講理解"},{"start":2825.785,"end":2852.812,"text":"因為我今天想要告訴你討論討論的其實就是我們這個都市更新條例是從1998制定到現在經歷了13次修法然後2019全文修正後每年都在修嘛每次其實這是一個算是良性的修法因為它都是在精進可見得我們重視可是你看看我們現在各縣市的都市更新案件是什麼狀況呢在四大階段裡面按照這個網站上面我們這樣看到的狀況其實"},{"start":2854.873,"end":2881.088,"text":"在等待都委會審定的案件量反而是最多的以全國來講停留在就是他成立了這個都市更新會這是整合民間意見嘛送件然後再來的話報縣市政府的都市更新委員會等待審議這是第二階段然後都委會審議完成之後送地方政府的核定是第三階段嘛然後就核定然後就可以開始開工嘛我沒有搞錯的話確實是這樣"},{"start":2882.529,"end":2898.75,"text":"那麼現在大部分的案件其實是停在都委會的審議當中啊而且如果我們從2021年到2024年這樣來看的話其實等待都委會審定的案量是一直在增加的而核定的案件量"},{"start":2899.631,"end":2921.389,"text":"和等待審議的數字其實顯不相當那這個狀況會是什麼就是部長您剛剛所說的其實民間已經在政府這幾年的鼓勵甚至是告知之下大部分的人已經有這個了解有這個意願而且一直在進來了所以案件量反而是一直在進來但後面塞車了啊"},{"start":2922.584,"end":2947.919,"text":"我認為是塞車了所以我們也接到不少的陳情暗示到底要怎麼去加速整個都市更新的程序那我現在就是看到政府這邊提出的我覺得政府也很有誠意啦因為剛剛在說的這個減民都更程序強化都更審議建立協商平台強化這麼多這都是為了要促進它的速度嘛可是事實上"},{"start":2949.387,"end":2972.932,"text":"數字就是呈現在給我們看部長或者是署長你怎麼看這樣的現象感謝委員垂詢的確因為在整個都更的審議過程當中其實往往不是只有都市計劃審議也有包含都更審議也有包含交評在有些案子大的時候甚至會涉及到環評所以過去的地方政府他們比較習慣就是線性式的審查"},{"start":2973.852,"end":2989.485,"text":"那先進式的審查就很容易因為各委員會之間的意見不一致往往會讓很多文件來來回回的退主要講到重點了嘛所以其實我們在逛當中其實都有鼓勵地方能夠併審的話就併審尤其是都市設計跟交評兩個如果可以併審其實是會減低很多的困擾"},{"start":2994.309,"end":3000.971,"text":"署長你在這裡的話就是確實把他這個內行人講門道啦剛剛在等待都市更新委員會地方政府這一層的審議其實就拆成了這麼多細項這樣子要分頭下去審如果是線性審查和能夠整併加速時間這個就不一樣所以這個是否包含在你的簡化審議程序當中呢看起來是不像不是喔 不一樣喔因為像交品跟都市設計它就是純屬地方事務的"},{"start":3022.157,"end":3031.188,"text":"我們在中央的法規裡面比較沒有辦法規範所以我們過去在檢討作業當中都是用鼓勵的方式鼓勵他們把這些部分能夠併審的話就併審來減輕這過程中這個申請人的苦難好署長我覺得你現在的回答很好"},{"start":3037.836,"end":3054.889,"text":"但是能不能你這段話是到地方政府執行我覺得如果只有鼓勵的話那現在已經實施了幾年就是現在這樣的狀況嘛所以我作為立法委員我在這裡就是看到這樣的現象我提出垂詢嘛我提出質詢嘛那我認為既然內政部是作為這整件事情的中央主管機關那現在鼓勵不夠了"},{"start":3057.61,"end":3085.681,"text":"問題還在那我們是不是可以提出指引啊或者有什麼其他的方向我們現在簡單講就是要去等待排隊收銀的人要去付錢的人太多了結果收銀台塞住了現在就是廣播在請求資源嘛對啊 就是請求收銀資源現在就是請求審議資源這樣的狀態所以到底有什麼方式甚至是根本你的審議委員會的量能是不是應該增加一個縣市可以多成立幾組我覺得這都是可行的方法啊"},{"start":3086.701,"end":3109.375,"text":"如果我們一直鼓勵民間那按量一直來對不對那中間這段卡住了那其實反而是造成民怨的狀況因為一等都是用年計算的我覺得這個狀況實在是值得考慮啊署長甚至部長你覺得今天這段談話你們會做什麼樣的反饋感謝啦感謝委員我想我們第一個當然是在檢討會裡面主要提出來第二個"},{"start":3110.049,"end":3126.409,"text":"我想在我們過去有很多審議的注意事項那我們或許在跟地方政府協調我們更改成相關的作業指引那尤其是在做相關的程序的時候能夠簡化或是併審的制度兩個併行"},{"start":3128.631,"end":3142.58,"text":"變成說在你最好三四個委員會一次提出來讓這個業主能夠做一次性比較一致性的修正我覺得你今天講得非常清楚甚至連提出指引都講出來了那這樣的話是不是可以有明確的啟程"},{"start":3144.069,"end":3162.223,"text":"我想我們今年這個年度就來做這樣就是半年左右嘛今年年底前完成指引啦好不好而且甚至是已經就應該開始實施順便一邊看有什麼要檢討的一邊走一邊做指引然後年底前提出指引好我們來做這樣好謝謝署長謝謝署長謝謝蘇強惠委員下一位我們請張志倫委員質詢"},{"start":3175.387,"end":3182.858,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早有請劉世芳部長跟吳興修署長謝謝 劉部長吳署長有請張委員早"},{"start":3188.439,"end":3207.387,"text":"好 部長好 署長好好 今天要討論的是這個都市更新跟危老重建的相關的議題那剛剛公安部長特別提到在這個內政部在明年度即將推動老宅延壽計劃這是一個新的計劃我覺得非常好"},{"start":3207.927,"end":3232.447,"text":"主要是為了讓民眾修善房屋公共區域以及室內空間提供補助以及未來會結合衛福部長照3.0讓長者在宅安心養老那我們也可以看到齁最近的這個新聞稿齁我放在桌上我去拿一下時間暫停一下抱歉時間暫停資料太多了好謝謝主席齁"},{"start":3237.625,"end":3265.631,"text":"那我們在這個內政部在3月5號的新聞稿裡面更明確的講出內政部在今年2月的時候的記者會有宣布要全新的一個政策叫做老屋延壽計劃針對30年以上四到六樓的房子初步提供全面的這個住宅提供室內外的修繕經費包含管線更新建物立體立面修繕就是我們俗稱的拉皮"},{"start":3268.252,"end":3293.149,"text":"屋頂防水增設電梯增加無障礙設施等等補助上限是50%屆時想要延長我們建屋的使用年限我覺得這些都非常利益良善那這個內容其實剛剛部長有特別提到內政部會與這屆持續溝通在內容完備以後會請行政院核定必據執行那現在的狀況來講應該是還在研議當中嘛"},{"start":3296.062,"end":3316.813,"text":"那可是我們現在因為看到因為川普的關稅政策我們編列了一個4100億的一個特別預算我們看到裡面的老宅修繕這個部分就是內政部現在還在研議的這個部分有規劃了50億鎖定了500棟的老舊集合住宅來去做這樣子的一個補助"},{"start":3318.237,"end":3336.249,"text":"現在我先跟部長報告這個計劃因為我相信這個4100億的現在特別預算這個三個黨都有提出版本那本黨現在也是支持這樣老一年瘦的一個部分不過因為這個計劃原本是在115年要來推的這個計劃不管是放在公務預算公建計劃還是放在基金裡面"},{"start":3336.849,"end":3359.784,"text":"那現在是要把它提早列為特別預算裡面那所以等一下要請教部長就是說是不是因為特別預算會有一個急迫性或是一個特別必要性那是不是就是在內政部裡面就準備好了要把它放在特別預算的裡面嗎那民眾可以來運用的時候它的整體的計畫你們是不是已經整個都已經規劃好了請部長回答"},{"start":3361.505,"end":3364.508,"text":"謝謝張委員的關心也非常謝謝張委員的支持確實沒有錯我們在跟國發會請議的時候有提到老宅延壽原先是要放到115年開始的年度預算但是後來因為國發會他也發布了現在我們台灣已經進入超高齡的社會"},{"start":3380.126,"end":3407.745,"text":"那我們也提到就是有關社宅的部分社宅在請這個老人家自己在搬出去到社宅的時候他們不願意離開原來的這個生活區域所以我們就提到老宅延壽這樣子的一個概念那獲得各界的支持因為我們跟相關的工會跟單位都有進行過這方面的溝通那所以現在老宅延壽牽涉到三個面向第一個就是我們自己在內政部裡面有關於建築物本體是否安全可以做這個老宅延壽的工程"},{"start":3408.666,"end":3432.893,"text":"第二個就是衛福部因為他們在長照3.0的時候也要照顧老人家所以老人家在居家裡面的修繕室內修繕也會列入是屬於這個老宅延壽裡面重要的一部分那再來就是有關於老宅延壽也會牽涉到我們應應氣候變遷的節能減碳譬如說老宅有老的電線那個地方一定是非常耗電然後也非常危險性會高"},{"start":3433.433,"end":3460.951,"text":"所以我們這個三項一起進行的時候呢行政院認為可以列入這次的特別預算所以給予50億元這樣子的Quota讓內政部跟其他部位來解釋的確啦因為這4100億原本是因應川普的關稅政策那剛剛在部長解釋雖然說跟川普的關稅政策的相連性不是那麼的高可是因為現在其實台灣社會因為老宅比較多是有需要的所以部長的解釋是OK不過現在要請教部長的就是說因為是列在特別的預算"},{"start":3461.511,"end":3477.309,"text":"那剛剛我剛有特別跟您報告過在115年的時候補助上限以每一個民眾來講補助上限是50%那請教一下在特別預算的裡面因為過去在特別預算裡面如果申請補助的時候補助的上限都是100%"},{"start":3478.59,"end":3499.676,"text":"就我的了解是不是都百分之百那這樣子補助會不會有一個這個網內互打一個問題就是我去申請特別預算的時候補助會提較高那我去115年申請公務預算的時候補助只有50%這樣子的落差還有裡面中間的還有等一下請教這些是補助預算的部分先來做請教等一下再做細項的部分來去做請教"},{"start":3500.696,"end":3508.544,"text":"其實我們有設算 這兩者之間應該不會有矛盾內容詳細大概補助的金額的比例大概是怎麼樣我們會訂高限其實要不要50%不是特別預算的問題說明一下 因為它過程當中是會有發包的問題"},{"start":3523.999,"end":3552.448,"text":"所以我們現在在定這個部分的時候我們大概會區分為公共區域跟市內區域來做不同的設算比例設算因為公共區域是屬於整棟大樓要共有所以它會有所謂是不是屬於公共發包的問題那但是市內修繕的部分它屬於個案申請的部分那是可以作為調整的所以這個部分我們會有做好比較詳細的設算以後也會跟行政院做報告所以它是可以允許不同比例"},{"start":3552.908,"end":3572.718,"text":"所以我的意思是說會不會在115年的時候老屋延壽計劃因為這次115年老屋延壽計劃你們的新聞稿說補助上限就50%那現在在特別預算的裡面因為特別預算是比較寬鬆的允許有不同射算所以有不同射算所以民眾會不會申請特別預算的時候的補助會比較高比較多會不會有這樣的問題是有可能"},{"start":3574.119,"end":3591.468,"text":"這邊就是我要請署長跟部長去了解的那這樣子的話大家都會趕著去申請特別預算那特別預算有個特別的點是在116年的12月31號到期所以變成說可能就是說那這樣我們的公務預算可能就會兩邊會有一個差異就民眾會覺得說用特別預算的話"},{"start":3592.208,"end":3606.185,"text":"可能補助比較多就一股大家就申請特別預算那公務預算的部分就可能沒有人申請那這樣會變成這個內政部在編列預算的時候會使用這個執行率會稍微較差一點所以這邊提醒署長一下好不好那第二個問題就是說"},{"start":3607.901,"end":3633.507,"text":"老屋老宅延售這個計畫非常的好那可是過去民眾都知道就是說在一些比較舊型社區的部分過去政府的一些補助就是比如說外牆拉皮或是一些電梯等等的一個部分那我請教說以項目來講會不會過去的一些我們有一些老屋拉皮或是電梯跟現在我們新的這個全新的這個老屋老宅延售的部分"},{"start":3634.187,"end":3656.121,"text":"他的申請的項目是不是有些重複那未來內政部或國土署這邊是不是可以做一個區分跟我們報告最主要他是因為程序上不同他程序上就有點像現在的都更裡面有分都更跟危老兩種制度一樣那第一個對象不同因為我們大概是四到六樓他比較沒有內政疑慮的那第二個"},{"start":3656.781,"end":3672.508,"text":"就是說他是不一定要經過管委會的那都更整委他是必須要透過管委會所以他相對是規模比較大那這種是允許小規模的可能他是十幾戶或甚至只有八戶那這樣的方式其實是可以加速他來申請"},{"start":3673.248,"end":3696.903,"text":"那第三個就是說內容上其實對這一個特別條例來講它可以整修的項目範圍更廣那同意比例是不是比如說未來使用老屋顏色同意比例是不是要百分之百以一整棟樓來講同意比例大概多少大概百分之百嘛所以應該還是有它的困難不過我很樂見不管是內政部或國土署放寬未來老屋"},{"start":3697.903,"end":3725.203,"text":"導入整修的一個整個範圍那過去其實大家也有說很多公共空間比如說連燈都沒有辦法燈都是不亮的其實這些都有機會納入整個未來的整個範圍內是好謝謝那我本席是樂見這樣子的一個測試那最後的問題就是再請教一下因為剛剛也特別提到零四零三大地震那已經從去年已經發生了一年那請教部長跟署長有沒有統計"},{"start":3726.244,"end":3752.932,"text":"之前被列成紅單跟黃單的部分現在整個的處理進度如何是不是還是很多的房子想要重建或者是現在很多的住戶因為已經被列成紅單跟黃單不管是他的這個所持有的財產的資產的價值減損那現在也沒有辦法住在裡面等等問題那現在這樣子的問題是不是你們統計還有多少那未來你們會考慮要怎麼樣解決這些這些受災戶"},{"start":3753.832,"end":3781.853,"text":"了解 感謝委員 其實在因為本部大概專注在處理這一個花蓮的部分花蓮目前大概都有進入程序當中不管他是走那一陣補強或者是走重建的部分都有進入到程序那我知道現在在新北那也有部分在桃園因為住戶意見整合的過程當中有比較辛苦所以縣市政府都很努力但是也有卡到意見整合的這個部分"},{"start":3782.313,"end":3804.564,"text":"你們有沒有想說剛剛有說當然我是一個大家可以討論剛剛有提到特別的要公辦督工不知道是不是一個很好的方式那在其他縣市是不是慢慢有機會就是說政府怎麼樣去協助有沒有一些考量這個部分我想我們來了解一下看雙北就是新北跟桃園看它目前的過程當中大致上有遇到什麼樣的問題那我們看來了解看看是不是要"},{"start":3805.52,"end":3828.459,"text":"能夠給予一些協助主席最後一個問題我常跟部長跟署長建議跟拜託的因為因應0403大地震之後其實很多的房子尤其台灣很多的年紀比較已經三四十年以上的屋齡的房子非常的多我一直在討論像現在這樣的特別條例特別的預算"},{"start":3829.019,"end":3855.071,"text":"或是未來的整個的公務預算是不是有可能加入一些老屋建檢一些初檢的一個方式來把它擴大到就是說我不知道我的房子未來這個比如說四層樓五層樓六層樓的老宅未來能不能因應幾級的地震那比如說我的房子我可以來跟政府單位申請這個老屋建檢的一些補助然後未來可以知道說我的房子現在未來的狀況怎麼樣讓整個"},{"start":3858.013,"end":3881.113,"text":"跟委員報告啦 其實我們現在就有這樣的一個制度啦 因為那每年大家編入多少預算 民眾好不好申請我們其實都是受理 然後每年額度其實都夠那但是目前來講 全台灣申請大概只有接近兩萬件兩萬件 因為大概出品的部分大概是一萬二到一萬五那當然普遍 可能會是有些民眾會擔心 會"},{"start":3884.035,"end":3906.433,"text":"建檢出來的結果如果不理想的話很可能會影響自己的房屋價值所以我們到目前編列有預算但是事實上申請的數量沒有很多那署長這邊未來要推廣嗎還是說未來總不能說每次遇到地震以後在這些受災戶都很辛苦根文報告我們在做老宅延壽這個案子的時候其實同步也是在做這個建檢"},{"start":3907.864,"end":3922.394,"text":"也就是說他有耐震的出品出品這一個部分都有納入一起來實施所以民眾如果有興趣的話其實都來申請我想我們都會所以在做老宅健檢的時候意思就是說你們會推廣就是老屋健檢好 謝謝部長署長 謝謝謝謝張志倫委員下一位我們請張宏祿召委質詢"},{"start":3938.818,"end":3963.745,"text":"請署長請吳署長委員長保證你先休息來署長就剛剛大家說老宅延壽的一個問題是其實也有人在問啊我們的這個政策是好但是老宅延壽是一戶還是要一棟"},{"start":3965.691,"end":3994.37,"text":"說明一下他有分兩塊因為我們希望讓老宅能夠作為這個尤其是老人家或小孩他的一個無障礙的空間的通行是最重要不能只有在室內而是整個公共區域的無障礙通行跟安全是首要所以整棟的這個改造是一定需要的那除此之外如果各戶有室內修繕的必要我們也是朝向以無障礙跟安全性的設施"},{"start":3995.211,"end":4003.663,"text":"為主來進行補貼所以我想這是我們在做這方面的時候是考量到整棟大樓的一個安全性為主"},{"start":4005.462,"end":4025.429,"text":"主長最主要的是很多市民會問我一戶可不可以申請就這麼簡單的問題所以它如果是整棟還是要整棟出來申請那會改善它的公共區域因為如果只有你自己的室內的話其實是不知道整棟一定符合標準整棟一定可以申請"},{"start":4027.779,"end":4056.286,"text":"不一定整棟的人每個人都要啊是阿他如果一戶可不可以申請一戶目前來講我們會覺得比較不符合這整個原來希望整個公共區域安全的這樣的一個一個標準對是啦齁所以如果這樣子的話我跟你講這個啊效率可能會打折扣真的會打折扣因為我跟你講如果整棟啊齁都可以申請都同意的話啦"},{"start":4057.591,"end":4085.874,"text":"照這種條件的房子幾乎都有可以圍牢了跟我們報告其實因為分擔的比例其實差距很大因為圍牢的部分很多都還有分擔的問題那分擔的量是蠻大的那因為我們剛剛提到這些整修的部分它的負擔金額是相對比較低的那所以我們是希望不一定要走到圍牢但是它如果能夠改善讓它方便住在裡面其實相對是比較好的"},{"start":4086.745,"end":4102.031,"text":"我利你們的方向你們什麼的我不是反對我也很支持但是你也知道其實如果以這個為以你們這個老巫岩獸其實啊"},{"start":4103.271,"end":4131.177,"text":"比較需要的大概都是在都會區啦是整個沒有什麼他也不可能給你申請啦是對不對所以在都會區裡面如果因為一戶他不同意他不想分攤那些啊我可能我住一樓的我幹嘛跟你分攤電梯啊我也用不到這個是以前就遇到的問題了嘛以前就遇到的問題了嘛所以"},{"start":4132.817,"end":4153.278,"text":"我覺得啦如果我們真的要來推這個可能可以思考一下因為你真的要解決這個無障礙解決什麼的這些東西當然利益良善但我怕我怕你做了一年之後你來檢討你的執行進度哇可能不高喔"},{"start":4154.499,"end":4179.212,"text":"這點我是先提醒了解委員的意思因為過程中過去的執行經驗大概就是一樓的反對是最大的所以這個部分我想我們現在是有顧問團這樣的一個做法那我們會來整合一下過去大家的經驗來看是不是有機會適度修正當然不一定說只要一戶就可以申請但是同一比例的部分我想我們可以來做檢討"},{"start":4180.373,"end":4207.11,"text":"可以啦,因為你也知道以前的經驗大家都知道,也不用講我就是不要,我幹嘛我用不到的我幹嘛去配合這個這個是這樣,那另外再來署長你可能也有很多食物的經驗台北、新北、桃園、台中我們如果要都更、要什麼的,條件會一樣嗎?"},{"start":4209.009,"end":4224.491,"text":"不一樣對嘛 一定不一樣嘛對 狀況都有不太一樣土地的價值跟你的這個基地的面積跟你的等等的所有的條件都考慮進去這一定是不一樣的條件嘛對嘛"},{"start":4225.692,"end":4240.439,"text":"那如果不一樣的條件我今天看了這個修法這個裡面有的人好像是會想說用一個比較像租賃比較公平的契約大家這樣子有個遵循那出發點"},{"start":4242.08,"end":4261.131,"text":"不能說不對啦出發點也好像是讓大家有所依循不過就沒有考慮到每個的差異性那你這樣子的話這跟租房子不一樣喔可能到時候你會不會擔心到時候所有都跟反而因為這樣卡住"},{"start":4262.29,"end":4278.792,"text":"感謝委員 因為的確合建 協議合建這件事情這麼多年來在都更條例裡面一直不太想去處理是因為它是純屬私契約之間的約定方式第二個就是說它的約定的內容越來越多變"},{"start":4279.713,"end":4294.799,"text":"越來越多變從早期的單純協議合建變化成有合夥有換地那有合建分屋合建分售合建分成那甚至還有跑出新的共同入股那這樣的方式的話其實變化多到"},{"start":4296.14,"end":4320.939,"text":"讓這樣的契約其實它在已經變成純屬私契約裡面各種不同形態的變化那很難在公部門訂定相關的法規裡面能去包含如果萬一沒有包含到的話反而會容易限制住那個案件的發展那所以在這過程當中我們也是非常謹慎就是說如果未來朝向是以目前的案例來訂定相關的注意事項"},{"start":4322.06,"end":4345.811,"text":"那或許對民眾來講還比較有實質上的一個協助那但是如果一定去強制入法的話反而我覺得會第一個綁手綁腳第二個呢未來對於在如果這類案件是走到消保消保的這個部分的話反而會更不利於這一個雙方在做一個位置上的一個判讀所以這也是我們在這過程當中會相對比較謹慎"},{"start":4347.558,"end":4371.295,"text":"我個人反而啦如果在不涉及不涉及其他的法令的情況之下國土署你甚至可以適度的公佈人家幾個案例人家的這個條件的什麼什麼我跟你講這個最清楚你大家都可以有一個這個條件去看"},{"start":4376.493,"end":4389.405,"text":"這類型態通常還會涉及到個人的財務狀況所以他們才會有這麼多不同型態的變化那另外一個當然就是時間的改變是對雙方對這個實施者最大的考驗"},{"start":4390.146,"end":4415.814,"text":"那糾紛往往也會出現在因為時間的改變 政策的改變雙方都希望更動合約但這個就沒有辦法由公部門的法規來處理所以我們盡可能舉出不同的樣態讓實施者跟地主來做了解也希望他們在走這方面的時候呢他能夠注意到裡面的風險你可能誤會我的意思喔我抱歉喔 再借我30秒部長"},{"start":4419.812,"end":4439.858,"text":"我必須要講我不是要你公布他所有的這個就像你剛講的你一兩個比較這個例子然後公布這個樣態讓大家可以知道一個issue我不是要你公布他所有的東西啊對不對他們的那些一些那個我們當然不能公布但"},{"start":4441.041,"end":4453.055,"text":"最在乎的是他分回多少嘛對不對 最在乎嘛那如果說有幾個例子這樣子公布的話我覺得可以有所依循啊布丁你覺得這個可以回去研究看看嗎"},{"start":4455.051,"end":4476.421,"text":"如果是屬於行政上面的部分我們給我們一點時間跟各縣市地方政府在推動都更的人把所有的樣態整理出來那如果需要有一項依循的程序或是提出一個類似指導的原則的話不要先入法那其實我們是可以同意的因為我們也是希望都更可以往前走"},{"start":4477.321,"end":4496.517,"text":"我的意思就是這樣啦你至少讓大家有一個你用契約定的太死了你完全沒有空間了反而會阻礙但你把這些可能的例子給大家看大家大概就會比較清楚法律什麼多少幾趴沒人看得懂啦可以嗎好謝謝我們來改進謝謝"},{"start":4514.147,"end":4517.028,"text":"主席好有請部長劉部長有請委員長部長好部長看一下這個特別條例有通過了嗎還有預算可以大內宣了嗎問部長一下特別條例有過了嗎"},{"start":4539.758,"end":4553.996,"text":"目前在大院好像是有附委但是還沒有做報告還有做審查還沒有過但是就在好像都在宣傳所以說這個部分我們是還沒過"},{"start":4555.952,"end":4563.356,"text":"還在審查中但是我們就看到就是大家都在我們內政部這邊在做宣傳所以依據我們的危老條例門檻屋齡30年以上未老舊房屋內政部統計的屋齡資料顯示目前全國超過30年以上的房屋也有將近600萬戶"},{"start":4585.054,"end":4611.062,"text":"所以占全國全體住宅的60%請問截止目前各縣市已經完成都市更新還有危老重建的屋數分別為多少比較潛在的老屋的技術還有實際的推動比例為何中央是否定有具體的中長期的推動目標還有時程嗎"},{"start":4617.032,"end":4643.107,"text":"好 沒問題感謝委員 其實因為都更條例跟都更條例後面我們接著一個危老那到截至目前為止都更的案件大概有1200多件那危老的案件大概有4600多件那所以這一些案子其實在過去的努力當中其實速度有逐漸在加快因為我們把一些法規做修正那但是呢 我想在危老他的部分呢 因為"},{"start":4644.108,"end":4657.983,"text":"我們已經即將要借起時間快到那所以當然各界期待我們把危老條例再做修正跟延長這部分我們也目前已經正在研擬相關的一個草案所以這個部分我們會讓他把它"},{"start":4659.164,"end":4682.669,"text":"往前推但是如果是屬於在這個10成獎勵的部分我們在原來訂定的時候就希望它改成用規模獎勵那所以也就是說我們不希望過去那種規模太小的重建案還去用那麼高的容積獎勵所以在規模獎勵上面呢我們是把它納進去來取代這一個10成獎勵這個部分我想在後續的這個修法裡面我們也會把它一併來納進去"},{"start":4683.971,"end":4692.374,"text":"好我們知道就是危老條件就是獎勵到今年五月份到齊 它是指時程獎勵所以但是目前我們有接續的政策嘛剛才你說的是政府有很多的問題但是都到齊了在想辦法展演所以不願意提前想好問題怎麼解決啊這個就是我們"},{"start":4707.395,"end":4715.566,"text":"想要的所以在我們的這屆期後中央是否已經是接續獎勵的機制草案嗎有了嗎還有什麼原則啊或者說有沒有說新的獎勵是否等於說危老的政策"},{"start":4726.56,"end":4742.149,"text":"這實質上有沒有終止這樣如何整理就是說我們整理中的案件有嗎 有沒有是這樣子的一個完整的根文報告啦 因為其實在修法要去延長的這一個部分"},{"start":4742.609,"end":4764.675,"text":"我們的確都在進行當中那獎勵的部分就會像我們剛剛所講的我們會是以規模獎勵為主就是原來的10成獎勵會落日取消但是規模獎勵會繼續延續這第一個第二個就是說我們也會檢討過程當中是不是還有程序可以簡化的部分這個部分我們也會在這一個修法裡面呢"},{"start":4765.275,"end":4783.607,"text":"來一併來提出我們希望能夠協助這一類的危老案件後面的速度能夠越來越快這一定是我們在目前正在進行的這個作業這沒有問題所以說我們希望是說真的是有解決方式啦不只是說到了再來去水到腳了再來跳這樣子的意思啦所以剛剛問的就是危老重建的制度嘛接下來想要請教一下我們的"},{"start":4793.092,"end":4815.787,"text":"都跟整合的问题目前主要的瓶颈就是说住户医院就是同诊的困难所以目前我们租同意的比例还有是否修法我们精简的制度是可能性吗或者考虑说区段同意的比例分流或者整合奖励的扎码"},{"start":4816.645,"end":4822.087,"text":"等這樣子的彈性的制度政府是考慮說設置的協調平台有沒有納入說第三方的調解的機制來協助就是澄清的爭議或者是降低這樣子的對抗除了願意整合以外呢為什麼我們很多的住戶不願意的主因所以部長我們署長這邊有沒有知道為什麼"},{"start":4844.554,"end":4870.907,"text":"了解跟委員報告啦因為其實都更案過程當中的確就像委員所講的中間會存在的資訊不對稱還有住戶的同意比例那所以我們在過程當中其實因為各縣市的量能跟形態都不一樣所以基本上我們在過程當中有鼓勵地方政府是否在整合到一定比例的時候就應該主動來介入也就是說協助譬如說你已經達到三分之二或四分之三那"},{"start":4871.927,"end":4893.636,"text":"政府要不要進來再做協助因為怕最後有時候最後一關不好送或是還有人堅持那所以在這過程當中政府的地方政府的適度介入其實有必要的第二個就是說過程當中其實也存在了很多的爭議所以在我們在法規裡面都已經有訂定地方可以成立都更都是更新的一個審議跟這個爭議爭議協調委員會的機制去處理那所以未來在做法上"},{"start":4899.958,"end":4919.59,"text":"我想我們每年都有持續的檢討就是會希望地方政府是否能夠調降那個進入的時機因為地方政府都希望到八九十的時候再進入但是如果可以的話再早一點介入的話或許可以讓這些案件的通過的時間能夠再加快這個我們會來跟地方政府再來開會來檢討"},{"start":4921.551,"end":4940.518,"text":"謝謝署長因為我們是希望知道是主要的原因因為我們就是你講的就是你們過程的處理因為要有這些處理才能協助他們往前對我們希望說有哪一些主要的原因我們才能知道說我們也是因為民意代表我們就是幫忙溝通來問解決的問題但是你們是"},{"start":4945.28,"end":4960.726,"text":"行政的過程你們去處理你們去做啦我們是希望想要的是說知道的什麼主因所以我們是資訊不對稱還有就是就是有這樣的不信任感所以我們希望才導致就是意願降低嘛所以我們是有的時候就是"},{"start":4963.007,"end":4976.763,"text":"建商變奸商所以變成我們導致就是很多屋子被騙或者是說掛了一間類似的案件都市更新又馬上就是就是含痰的效應"},{"start":4978.064,"end":4992.876,"text":"挖來挖去 民眾所獲得資訊跟建商的就是有很大的落差所以我們希望的是說你要知道的原因的落實來去做溝通才不會說資訊落差太大我們務主就對我們政府沒有信任感所以才會產生就很大的問題所以我們目前就是沒有標準化也沒有說都是更新的一個"},{"start":5006.039,"end":5020.295,"text":"計畫的範本所以財務的模式的工具所以我們希望說這樣子的話我們是不是這也有一個是有效益的讓我們的民眾他們知道說不是任何都是透過建商"},{"start":5020.735,"end":5031.178,"text":"才知道要怎麼去做他們是不是可以直接就會有說比如說我們現在社區有就是更新的顧問制度對待還有就是說我們的社區醫師或者公開社區的都更諮詢師等等提供但是我們現在目前是沒有沒有完整的"},{"start":5043.627,"end":5062.528,"text":"讓我們的個別的租屋他們真的是有一個求助管道都會透過建商來去幫忙寫計劃送計劃等於就是他們都沒有完整我們希望是有沒有完整有效的範本讓大家可以去做參考這個部分"},{"start":5063.407,"end":5091.215,"text":"好所以第二個的話我想說就是因為時間的關係我希望說我們就是希望有在22的縣市中有沒有成立就是專者就是推動的單位也有陣地這樣子的標準的考慮的機制因為我們希望說計劃掌力補助方式對我們的地方還有中央的明確的目標因為我們有很多的"},{"start":5092.035,"end":5121.415,"text":"我以前都是在台中中區那邊我們了解就是這樣子的老屋啊都更但是呢因為政府有這樣的好意但是呢我們的要有沒有說我們的中小企業有我們中小企業的信用保證基金但是我們有沒有可以說用一個都更金融就是都市更新融資保證的基金讓我們想要都更的人"},{"start":5122.355,"end":5139.283,"text":"這樣子我們政府做一個保障讓他們可以去有這個經費來可以去做我們希望說這個部分是不是可以感謝委員其實我們大概各縣市有成立相關的輔導團來做協助第二個就是說在危老的部分其實已經有所謂的"},{"start":5140.513,"end":5163.538,"text":"信用信保的制度那都更的部分其實過程當中很多縣市政府也都會有做類似信託的動作那所以這個部分我想我們在整個制度我們會整整體在持續的檢討那會有輕的進步進一步的話會跟大會這邊再來做說明我們這邊就是要送我們的就是立院有相關這些的資訊讓我們可以做參考"},{"start":5166.32,"end":5183.833,"text":"因為在台中真的是要都更也好為老也好是在中期是最多的所以我們希望我們可以幫得上忙一起來去推動以上謝謝好謝謝麥立貞委員相關資料請單位會後回覆下一個我們請徐議貞委員質詢謝謝主席我們請內政部劉部長還有住都中心花董事長劉部長花董事長有請"},{"start":5198.707,"end":5226.489,"text":"委員長部長早還有董事長早我想當時我們成立這個住都中心當然主要就是要推動都市內老舊建築物的重建還有強化政府主導都市更新的機制而且擴大我們執行都市更新的量能所以今年住都中心在2月12的時候有對外宣布有一個新聞稿就是中央興建首座運用預住公法的新辦的社會住宅萬華安居"},{"start":5227.096,"end":5256.323,"text":"那二月底預計要公開招租總共戶數有300戶有三種房型那除了套房195戶兩房的89戶三房的16戶那當然預租工法依照當時花董事長的說法是其實現在是一個比較可以節省人力而且呢又可以讓我們的工期能夠加速進行然後另外還有呢就是可以提升施工品質所以現在租屋中心也在推這個預租工法"},{"start":5257.079,"end":5265.231,"text":"我看到目前除了萬華安居還有新竹的中亞安居桃園的普興安居跟新竹的京城安居目前是這四個是嗎那未來會繼續推動嗎"},{"start":5267.943,"end":5289.774,"text":"謝謝委員的關注我想預租工法絕對是國內不管是社宅或一般民間的開發案應該要擴大推動的那我們當然希望透過社宅的推動來示範讓這些營造廠跟民間都能夠了解那後續我們預計每年至少要以兩處社宅來推動預租工法"},{"start":5290.074,"end":5310.422,"text":"那因為當時用玉柱工法主要就是覺得它可以縮短工期嘛對不對可以縮短時間我想不僅是這樣因為它其實是比較先進的營造工法對於未來台灣營造人力的短缺絕對是越來越嚴重所以說我們透過玉柱工法的推動希望讓玉柱的產業在台灣能夠擴大"},{"start":5313.424,"end":5338.346,"text":"當時您是說2月底就會公開遭租了但是到目前為止都還沒有的原因是什麼其實確實我們也跟一些我們其他的今年要遭租的案子做了整體的檢討現在預計應該在5月的下旬應該就會公告請問一下因為我上你們的網站看您可以看一下這個圖片4月13日就已經竣工了"},{"start":5338.826,"end":5356.137,"text":"那為什麼要到五月底才能招租因為你本來預計的是二月底我們竣工其實只是工程的一個階段後面還有一些最後的細節那還要申請死照等等等等那你那時候說二月底可以辦理招租現在要到五月底"},{"start":5356.777,"end":5373.471,"text":"因為實質上可以實質入住啦大概還是要到可能10月到年底才是實質可以入住所以我5月遭住其實還是來得及那你當時2月12的時候說2月要遭住那現在延宕了三個月的理由是什麼"},{"start":5375.334,"end":5400.461,"text":"其實我剛剛跟委員報告過實際上我們就是我們把今年預計要可能要完工我們做了一次的整理那我們分階段因為我們有十幾個案子今年要招租因為其實對於每一個需要社會住宅大部分其實都是比較弱勢的家庭晚一天完工晚一天招租對他們來說他們就必須要負擔更多的租金因為他必須在外面租所以我們希望說這個部分是不是這個時間"},{"start":5402.782,"end":5423.534,"text":"不要再延宕因為我也有聽到一種聲音就是說是不是要等到520之後要等我們的賴總統或卓院長去檢採所以才要延到5月底呢跟這個有關對我希望不要這樣所以希望在這邊我們可以加速的這個前進那另外就是根據萬華安居預計要收多少租金"},{"start":5425.235,"end":5441.73,"text":"這個其實我們跟部裡面其實都在檢討討論當中那原則上當然是以符合住戶可負擔這個標準這是一定要遵守的好 依照這個估價師的推算租金可能會超過4萬元是不是有這麼一回事"},{"start":5442.69,"end":5464.839,"text":"目前我想這不會發生這絕對不會發生因為依照我們目前的社會住宅的租金來說剛剛也提到其實會去需要社會住宅的這些住戶大部分都是比較弱勢他們也有這個需要所以那個租金對他們來說當然相對高低對他們來說相對重要所以目前我們大概是"},{"start":5465.619,"end":5490.835,"text":"這個社會住宅的租金比如說如果由估價式來估算通常是會用市場租金的七到八折雖然是低於市場行情啦但是對於在都會區來說事實上這個租金的壓力也是非常的大那相對於我們可以比較一下日本韓國跟香港他們的社會住宅租金多半是以收入能力來去估算所以計算之後大概會是我們"},{"start":5491.515,"end":5507.566,"text":"地區租金的四到五折所以要這邊實質上又未必是這樣其實日本的UR guide住宅其實就是市場租金在租並沒有用市場租金的四到五折在租那另外呢台灣確實是比較好啦那日本呢你剛剛講韓國呢"},{"start":5510.247,"end":5526.222,"text":"韓國其實有很多種在這邊我想提出這個問題就是希望部長跟這個董事長就是定價的部分因為既然是要幫助弱勢的團體還是希望能夠定價既然盡量符合各地的一個標準依地區別好嗎還有依他的收入"},{"start":5527.594,"end":5554.509,"text":"然後另外再請教一下這個部長就是我們現在台灣我們現在都市更新因為我們現在老宅大概超過30年有超過500萬戶所以現在在都市更新的這個危老都市更新其實有一點緩慢那請問部長這個是不是我們現在的這個都跟的這個在推動的時候我們是不是比較注重能不能談的成而不是關心地主跟住戶分的公不公平"},{"start":5559.056,"end":5576.386,"text":"在我們的都更違老條例裡面比較側重的是屬於程序上面的合乎我們的行政規範所以對於實質上就是能不能有分多少的利潤或者我們比較沒有介入也就是我們剛剛所說的要把這樣子各種不同的合建合夥甚至入股把它放到"},{"start":5576.946,"end":5604.785,"text":"法條裡面啦對公部門來講確實在處理上有點困難因為一般的我說一般我們的人民啦針對面對這樣的更新的時候其實他們都很多的疑問而且因為不熟悉所以比如說像我們租賃的時候有租賃定型化契約範本然後咧我們在這個預售屋的時候預售屋的定型化契約範本那我們是不是可以針對都市更新的契約也訂一個範本呢跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":5606.131,"end":5634.77,"text":"也就是因為在尤其是合建這個部分形態太多種那我剛說明就是說從早期很單純的協議合建其實延伸到最後有這個協議有這個合建分屋合建分層合建分售甚至有用入股合資或是異地的方式所以就是因為類型太多種所以在過程當中而且都純屬私人之間的一個權力交換"},{"start":5635.991,"end":5662.206,"text":"權力交換所以變成說所以署長的意思說要用一個這個要用一個範本去約束他們其實反而會造成因為那其實是一個參考嘛雙方的我說明一下所以為什麼過去在我們跟地方政府討論的過程當中大家比較傾向用注意事項也就是說把可能的樣態那現在有注意事項嗎用注意事項的方式提醒雙方要簽這一類的時候那現在有注意事項嗎現在雙北有"},{"start":5664.407,"end":5682.185,"text":"雙北有 那全國我們也有針對這個部分是國土署這邊在推動還是地方自己推動因為地方政府對這一類的法規跟處理機制不太一樣所以我們一般傾向由地方政府自己去訂比較能符合他們自己的實務上的一個運作的方式 是這樣"},{"start":5682.685,"end":5705.014,"text":"那目前只有雙倍就代表還有很多縣市是還沒有推動所以我說明一下就是說我們比較不贊成修法是因為修法太剛性了反而會限制了雙方的發展那改用注意事項或者是提醒他們有所謂風險控管的時候那不管是注意事項或是其他我是認為說既然包括租屋期幾千塊的事情幾萬塊的事情就有一個定型化契約"},{"start":5705.774,"end":5726.191,"text":"然後我們預售戶有一個定型化的機會反而是都跟這麼重要的事情牽扯的可能上千萬幾百萬的這種都目前是沒有那剛剛署長如果說的這個定型化的辦法嘛你們現在說地方的是就是注意事項是不是可以加速來去推動各縣市來這個我們有正在研議這個"},{"start":5727.652,"end":5735.956,"text":"那有沒有預計大概多久可以完成我想我們今年度來跟地方政府在廣為在開會大家一起來希望今年度可以完成好嗎是謝謝然後另外最後一個問題就是要請教一下就是因為其實我們目前就像我剛剛講的我想要都更的這些住戶或者是說我們這些相關的民眾他們其實對於市場的不管是產業啦"},{"start":5749.341,"end":5770.627,"text":"然後有多少業者 怎麼整合 產業規模有多少其實大家都不了解所以住都中心有沒有可能可以成立一個這樣子的共享平台讓我如果需要都更的人可以到這個平台裡去查詢到相關的資料包括比如說公司的名冊 顧問庫或是跟地方政府共享的協力平台可不可以成立一個這樣的平台"},{"start":5771.345,"end":5800.105,"text":"包委員因為國家都督中心在都更的業務上比較是公辦都更為主所以民間的都更案原則上我們比較不會去介入和參與不是要介入參與我的意思是說成立一個這樣的平台讓我們如果有需要的民眾他可以上網去看那因為其實都督中心當時成立的目的就是希望能夠有做一些比如說是相關的分析資料收集統計分析研究規劃跟教育訓練嘛"},{"start":5801.225,"end":5817.194,"text":"感謝委員 這個我們會來我們現在本來就有收集資料啦我想我們來修正我們的一些網站的資料然後推廣給所有的這個民眾來了解我們一樣在今年就已經都有陸陸續續在做一些修改那是不是今年年底可以完成嗎"},{"start":5818.034,"end":5842.34,"text":"應該可以好那就麻煩一下就是說我們這個讓我們一些需要用到這個更新條例的人或是需要更新的這些民眾能夠有所許委員那個是不是這樣子就是國土署長剛已經有提到我們是不是盡量把這些資訊能夠公開讓放在國土署的網站可以可以其實放在哪都沒有問題處理公辦都跟比較不太一樣其實放在哪裡都沒有問題只是主要讓大家可以看得到好這個我們來努力來做好謝謝徐議貞委員的資訊下一位我們請王美惠委員資訊"},{"start":5848.387,"end":5849.048,"text":"主席 我們這裡 保證 保證喝一杯 沒關係 保證 喝一杯 喝一杯都沒吹"},{"start":5866.741,"end":5872.504,"text":"蘇長有請 蕃姓好 美鳳在今天我們討論的當中我們全國有五百萬戶差不多都在三十年以上 佔一半 老齡尤其加上去以後都說是木都木都就是代表他的地方的古厝"},{"start":5896.409,"end":5900.153,"text":"在這個規定當中 家裡的房子的平均年費是35費我們全國的是33費所以在這裏面 你就看得出來 家裡是30"},{"start":5915.29,"end":5916.651,"text":"林依雄的就佔62%啦在全國的我們到55%多啦所以說在這個規定當中部長跟署長也很用心的要準備推出我們的樓房讓它恢復恢復在這個"},{"start":5941.059,"end":5952.526,"text":"過程當中三宗五十億要不然我要補充跟署長說的就是這個流出過程最重要的一個是安全、防震、流水因為它的結構很流亡所有問題也這麼多所以有需要改善所有本身的體積"},{"start":5969.892,"end":5972.512,"text":"我們這裡的鄉鄉不要遭福氣因為我認為用心要讓這裡的老鼠還可以讓牠恢復生命讓牠可以吃飽,這樣這間老鼠可以再做到可以保守繼續長的安全,我們都要考慮下去"},{"start":5997.557,"end":6002.361,"text":"尤其我會跟他一起大的都差不多年尾和年尾跟年尾的經歷事實都在外面吃透了應該我們有這個心 要做這件事我們應該是心情好 要辦才可以"},{"start":6024.883,"end":6031.924,"text":"這裡的老闆讓他能夠先進來補助的時候他的規則、他的申請要更簡單因為我認為有時候我們辦的時候你讓人這麼早早的要再去申請這裡申請這裡 要再去申請那裡沒有差你們的美意也沒有差你們的用心所以"},{"start":6053.388,"end":6063.613,"text":"順序和補充,本席跟你說,這個公司很不簡單,像咖啡廚你看你如果有經過咖啡廚,你去咖啡廚看,那個夢都的稱呼是非常地不簡單所以你如果能夠協助咖啡廚這裡的老廚的時候應該我們的環境更好,是不是這個你來報告一下"},{"start":6084.312,"end":6100.982,"text":"感謝委員 加議區這幾宗我們很努力的就是競爭和危牢重建我們渡江的案件和危牢的案件在全國都差不多百千名所以新青榮都算不錯因為我們過去有補助這個企業創立這個專案辦公室所以在這個專案辦公室的合作之下"},{"start":6106.205,"end":6111.028,"text":"其實案件在推動上不錯那未來在做這個勞財研修的部分我們就要一樣在地方把這個專業團體跟企戶構造會用一個福德團就是說民眾家屬有沒了解或是有想要申請的我們會先透過這個福德團規劃做規格看看他要怎麼去處理這個事情未來這個制度上我想我們要透過這個"},{"start":6128.617,"end":6134.443,"text":"這個福德團給我們歡迎有一些制度上我們可以來做一些修正我們要來修正總之我們希望我們這個市長在住在家裡他不用說我一定要搬去北部住我在這裡把家裡整理好這個無障礙空間安全的設施做好他就可以在這裡安心地繼續住"},{"start":6147.375,"end":6149.036,"text":"我想這是這個政策最大的目的,我們一定會向這個方向發表因為我想我們中央可以想出這個方法,可能跟地方的政府都差不多"},{"start":6158.922,"end":6161.243,"text":"有這個想法 因為老廚的時候 他的電費都很高有時候我們燒炸燈的時候 那個老廚的時候 不是這樣燒而已有時候整排都燒光了 自己有錢也買不到 才會老廚 所以說我們也"},{"start":6181.174,"end":6183.535,"text":"我們這個小細節的問題,我們要看過後,做好後因為署長我也知道你很用心的,為這個區塊給我們補充的感動,但是我覺得"},{"start":6196.801,"end":6204.142,"text":"一定要便民的啊 剛才聽你這樣說應該是越便民越多要去請感恩感謝我們地方政府的投協助我們才有那個申告出來啦本席再跟你談到一個土耕條例的問題1999年的時候我們在修法的時候本席有提一個復議的"},{"start":6224.778,"end":6233.021,"text":"附帶結議的問題,說我們都跟農基地多大的選,對社區的回饋,但是署長,一定會交給的,會附帶結議"},{"start":6242.245,"end":6249.187,"text":"我要請問,到現在你們辦到哪裡來?跟委員報告啦,其實那個休館這個榮獎的這個回饋啦榮獎的回饋,我相信這個部門,我們目前已經有在檢討那第二,也已經有跟這個院裡面跟行政院裡面有做一些報告包括說,尤其大規模的這個渡工榮獎,過去都用"},{"start":6267.972,"end":6286.799,"text":"有的甚至用交集,有的去做一些其他的,去對社區、對地方不實際的幫助所以未來,因為都更的引進,尤其重大的建設、重大都更的案子如果類似能夠引進社宅,來回饋地方,給一些地方可以照顧更多需要的人"},{"start":6287.395,"end":6293.841,"text":"或是說它還可以做更多的社福設施,這部分我們已經有在研議這個方案有啦齁,不然等一等多一等多這樣就沒有了有啦,我那個社宅的部分已經有先預告了有先預告了,我相信後面還有需要檢討的部分我們還會繼續"},{"start":6310.836,"end":6317.379,"text":"因為署長這個 我覺得對主委也好對健康要去的也好 因為大家互相可以相迎對不然你跟他說 你給健康有農基率 跟你沒有回饋北省也會覺得 跟你怎麼做這麼奇怪在這個過程中 我們也 署長這件事要要求不是說有得做 有得做"},{"start":6339.068,"end":6344.03,"text":"來這裡補充 委員你所關心這個都更榮獎的部分我們已經完成預告 現在法規程序做完了以後就可以對外公告實施這樣很好 因為 感謝日程再跟委員來補充這樣感謝補充在這裡我還有一個問題就是跟市長談到的就是危老的條例在這個過程當中"},{"start":6366.878,"end":6370.683,"text":"我們在186年實施的 要實施10年 現在剩2年在這2年到目前 我們的規約 你們有可能再延長嗎"},{"start":6383.834,"end":6400.781,"text":"感謝 因為其實我們地方國家都有希望這個危老條例再來延長主要是它的程序減變它的程序開始減變小規模的基地不用到都更那麼大範圍小規模的基地也會造成所以我們目前已經有延宜車案要延長 第二就是說這個中壢保安也是維持我們基準的規模獎勵給繼續希望大家去整併出來 危老也不會太少"},{"start":6414.147,"end":6421.51,"text":"稍微給更多假日 把這個社區的經關改造得更好因為署長本市會跟你談到這個圍牢的條例是不是可以再延長因為我認為在申請的當中 你會看到出來圍牢的申請有65件"},{"start":6435.095,"end":6440.918,"text":"剛才才申請兩件啦所以說這個圍繞的選對北省也願意去參與電商也願意去做所以我覺得說不要逗留他人的時候我覺得有需要扁平有需要延長我們要延長因為當時是本市長會幫你探討的選你就說"},{"start":6463.251,"end":6467.572,"text":"圍繞這個問題是非常重要所以大家願意朝這個方向去做所以說兩黨很快也會搞所以署長保證,我們要先研議開不然時間夠了,要到最後說只有這麼多人想要請,但是我們沒有人的時間"},{"start":6489.276,"end":6489.976,"text":"謝謝王美惠委員 下一位我們請黃婕委員質詢"},{"start":6523.922,"end":6526.344,"text":"好謝謝主席我們先請部長劉部長有請部長好因為其實大家都在討論這個危老條例即將落日的問題那其實我也看到說內政部有先提了一個新的政策就是關於老屋延壽那當然老屋延壽是三年五十億可是呢其實它的內容大概就是四到六樓"},{"start":6551.024,"end":6556.767,"text":"那比較是單元式的而且只有大概拉皮拉管這一些比較小型的一些補助跟跟就是處理這些小型的問題那我的問題還是說那接下來這個危老條例即將落日了就是在2027年的5月嗎那"},{"start":6568.453,"end":6593.887,"text":"我擔心的是說在落日之後接下來還有什麼新的政策是我們政府有準備好要端出來的嗎可不可以先請部長跟大家簡單的說明一下接下來長期的策略我們剛在報告的時候就是有關都更危老條例即將要落日的部分也提出來包括簡化裡面的審議程序加快它的速度也就是都更跟危老不管是公辦或者是私人民辦的部分我們都會繼續來推動"},{"start":6595.828,"end":6623.47,"text":"那再來就是您剛剛所提到的目前我們這個行政院要求我們把50億的特別預算把它拿來處理這個有關老宅延售的部分應該是我們在今年年初的時候各界都有反映有關人老屋老的部分所以那時候內政部就想要推老宅延售那因為推老宅延售本來放在公務預算裡面我們也考慮到說老宅延售要不要推出專章放在都更違老條例裡面"},{"start":6624.771,"end":6653.124,"text":"現在行政院覺得說我們要加速進行所以他就是用特別預算三年的方式先讓內政部來推動所以我們推動的時候目前我們就是會跟衛福部一起推出一個類似一個行政命令或措施的方式來推動這個部分這裡面大概第一個四到六樓的部分這是外面的外觀的安全跟硬體設備但是大家忘了這裡面最重要的措施其實也就是我們在社會福利上照顧老人家最重要就是"},{"start":6653.564,"end":6676.22,"text":"各宅裡面的老人家他自己本身的無障礙設施不會只有我們以前所說的像什麼電梯啦或者是這個無障礙的樓梯間不是這樣子包括剛剛所在乎的譬如說整個的那個電線的維護甚至燈光照明或者是老人家在衛浴裡面不要有那個這個滑倒這樣的措施啊這個我們就必須要跟衛福部一起來處理也就是說"},{"start":6679.199,"end":6700.087,"text":"內政部所處理的是整個的外面看的耐震的一定的程度之下怎麼樣讓老人家可以在整棟大樓裡面是可以安全的活動但是另外一個在住宅生活品質上面能夠讓老人家可以在一般年紀比較大的要注意一下不要有其他的跌倒受傷或者是受到其他的因素"},{"start":6700.927,"end":6717.882,"text":"這兩個合在一起所以行政院認為說值得把它放在我們這次的特別預算來推動那特別預算如果通過的話其實我們按照現在衛福部跟衛福部的長照計畫跟那個內政部所提的部分就可以來辦理這個推動讓大家一起來申請"},{"start":6718.362,"end":6739.422,"text":"好謝謝部長的說明我認為這是一個非常好的政策也希望接下來推行可以順利那這個特別預算可以順利通過那我還是想請教一下剛剛其實部長有說所以危老條例因為其實裡面的這個時程容積獎勵本來前三年是10%嘛那到現在已經是第八年了剩下1%那所以是接下來還打算繼續延長這個獎勵嗎是不是請署長補充說明一下感謝委員因為"},{"start":6743.886,"end":6768.532,"text":"我們過去就認為10成獎勵它是一個比較像鼓勵性質的空白授權它是應該要結束掉但是我們同時也看到危老因為當時搶著申請所以太多的小基地去申請然後有獎勵那在結構它相對比較會讓外界質疑所以我們很快就提出了規模獎勵也就是說你至少要在60平方公尺以上才能夠來申請"},{"start":6769.592,"end":6785.226,"text":"那他有一點就變成取代這個施政獎勵那未來在修法裡面我想我們這一個部分我們也會繼續鼓勵他但是施政獎勵的部分我們就會直接把它做取消好 那我了解 謝謝署長的說明那再來請教一下 也是請署長"},{"start":6786.927,"end":6801.965,"text":"那署長跟你請教一下因為接下來其實我們高雄啊我們高雄其實做危老的比做都更的多很多那當然是條件的不同啦就是我們單元的這種比較多然後也比較便利那大規模都更也"},{"start":6803.026,"end":6825.132,"text":"確實推動不易所以我在這邊還是想要再請教一下啦就是像這種自辦都更像我們谷山就有一個非常長期無法處理的自辦都更那也是基於這種住戶跟建商之間的資訊不透明或者是彼此的不信任等等的原因到現在也沒有辦法有個好的結果那我們也協調過很多次了那其實很多案例都是類似這樣"},{"start":6826.212,"end":6849.61,"text":"所以想請署長是針對這樣子的案例到底有沒有比較好的方式可以推進自辦都更的進度呢跟委員報告啦其實就法規上來講其實現在程序是完備的但事實上就會像委員所講的資訊不透明跟建商住戶之間的不信任感往往是這中間比較大的兩個因素"},{"start":6850.174,"end":6862.086,"text":"所以我們過去都有提供給地方政府類似輔導團跟專案辦公室就是希望除了政府部門以外有其他的單位能夠進入來做一些協助那所以像這一類的案子過去"},{"start":6862.842,"end":6883.086,"text":"在各地方政府其實都有類似用這樣的機制來處理啦那不過或許委員這個案子相對可能複雜度更高那所以這個部分我想如果有機會我想我們來了解看看他真正要怎麼樣去介入做一些協助那我們也來指導市府看看市府的以市府的角度跟專案辦公室要怎麼樣來幫忙這些住戶來做溝通"},{"start":6885.421,"end":6906.2,"text":"好這個真的要拜託那另外一件事情是這個公辦都更雖然跟國土署沒有什麼關係但是因為這是接下來高雄最大型的都更計畫就是我們高鐵高雄站那接下來會把地下連通道的都納進都更的計畫那周邊包括很多商辦然後一些旅宿還有捷運輕軌都會納進這整個大都更計畫的範圍裡面"},{"start":6910.143,"end":6930.437,"text":"那當然這主要是台鐵要處理啦包括專事專武的部分那如果接下來有一些包括如果他的一些都計的變更需要單元的需要我們國土署協助的這個也要拜託我們國土署大力來協助好嗎在這邊先拜託你們的成員如果都市計畫會送到內政部來的設計主計的話我想我們會全力來協助"},{"start":6930.697,"end":6946.193,"text":"好太好了謝謝署長因為這會是接下來高雄非常最重點的一個計畫甚至我們卓榮泰院長稱這個會是城市的靈魂高雄城市的靈魂他是這樣子說明的那最後一點時間我們跟署長請教一下就是"},{"start":6946.993,"end":6975.115,"text":"關於這個都市更新跟氣候變遷的調適因為其實我有看到說當然這個氣候變遷之下我們城市是越來越熱加上都市的熱島效應等等所以其實我有看到德國有一個他們在把這個風浪城市的風浪有納進他們一些城市的規劃裡面那我認為是一個蠻值得參考的尤其是我們現在各縣市尤其是我們南部縣市超級熱那這種在如何不要讓城市裡面的風浪被阻塞"},{"start":6975.936,"end":6978.037,"text":"我覺得把風狼的規劃納進去是蠻好的一個指標所以是不是如果接下來有一些包括可能容積獎勵的指標啊或者是有什麼一些設計準則裡面也可以把這個城市風狼納進去呢"},{"start":6991.774,"end":7006.529,"text":"感謝委員 其實城市封廊的這個概念其實在各縣市的都市設計準則裡面通常都會去做考慮但是就是看在實質審議的時候你能怎麼樣去考慮到個案那第二個就是說"},{"start":7007.129,"end":7032.485,"text":"其實城市風浪的一個氣候模擬那其實部長也非常關心所以也有指示建研所都有進行這一類的研究那我想我們到時候也可以適時的把一些研究的成果來提供給各縣市政府那他們在訂定相關的都市設計準則跟審議規範的時候能夠一併納入我想再把它放到個案的基地去做審議去做協調我想這是我們可以接下來可以努力的"},{"start":7032.685,"end":7053.589,"text":"是啊非常好那除了說給他們參考之外我相信如果有更多的鼓勵措施是更好啦畢竟很多時候如果他們有其他考量的話這一些風狼的洞據之間他們可能就會犧牲掉了或者是就沒有辦法依照來實施對就是我們會鼓勵更多元的設計方法對更多元的設計方法來解決它好謝謝謝謝署長謝謝部長謝謝黃婕委員下一位我們請李博義委員質詢"},{"start":7074.318,"end":7075.181,"text":"來 謝謝有請吳署長吳署長有請委員好謝謝署長"},{"start":7080.714,"end":7106.441,"text":"今天我們雖然是討論都市更新跟危老重建但是近年高雄除了這個危老重建執行的非常多之外那都市更新其實都是非常大型那非常大型都是用公辦而且涉及的單位如果沒有中央政府的協助的話這是非常非常高雄建設幾十年來都沒有辦法達成的包含我在畫面上給署長參考的"},{"start":7107.506,"end":7128.763,"text":"雅灣特茂山的三個基地這三個基地其實你也知道台電有60%的土地那沒有經過中央政府的協調沒有經濟部台電的首肯這個不可能可以執行的好那你看第五個我接下來講我們左營TSMC旁邊"},{"start":7130.063,"end":7155.131,"text":"那也是因為中央有協助讓中油可以加速土屋整治而且讓台積電進來才有這麼大的需求量那這麼大需求量那高雄市政府又跟從G20G20是整個是高雄市政府的包含水肥廠、瀝青廠整個公辦都跟那包含高鐵之心高鐵之心又更困難了它包含國產署"},{"start":7156.381,"end":7173.62,"text":"鐵道局國防部那整個把它整合那還有包含高鐵之星就有兩個那還有包含最近一塊剛剛執行出來的其實是在呃劉思芳部長擔任高雄市副市長期間把國防部呃"},{"start":7175.242,"end":7198.317,"text":"保留下來的眷村文化保留園區五十幾公頃然後裡面現在因為已經經過了十多年沒有辦法開發那也逐漸荒廢那也跟國防部達成協議做文化都更那這個是非常特殊的那文化都更也已經順利招商了在多新開闢一條尾六路以北的地方來做文化都更"},{"start":7199.237,"end":7212.267,"text":"以南的地方大概有三分之二的園區繼續保留眷村文化園區的一個風貌也跟國防部有合作有這些相關的進度"},{"start":7214.308,"end":7234.319,"text":"高雄的都更比起現在國土署在審核的還有很多都正在進行但是我們現在發現一個問題要趕快跟署長這邊來做討論我們現在剛剛部長也講我們已經預告要修正的都市更新建築容積獎勵辦法裡面"},{"start":7237.045,"end":7264.847,"text":"我們現在還有一個正在剛剛公告上個禮拜公告的一個基地他其實也是跟中油拿來的他其實就是高雄捷運R17A5街廓的公辦都更案那這個都更案呢他面積有4200坪總開發可能會到38000坪他離台積電有多近其實就是同一個基地啦那未來可能有一些要做企業安家宅做一些"},{"start":7266.087,"end":7293.303,"text":"可能就是沒有要賣的那作為臨時的比如說某公司啦不管是TSMC的員工也好或者是未來中油企業總部的員工來也好那可以臨時的做這些臨時的住宅實用的但是這一個財務的規劃跟我們即將要公告的這個草案可能沒有辦法符合但是你回頭要看署長"},{"start":7294.833,"end":7320.573,"text":"左營已經興建這麼多社宅了花董事長在這裡 花董事長請你也上來左營已經興建這麼大量的社宅跟台中的狀況完全不一樣啊我們的社宅比例已經這麼高了那我們即將要公布的這個農長辦法裡面會限制到已經公布的這一些現在比如說這個R17的案子署長你覺得這個有沒有解"},{"start":7322.857,"end":7338.863,"text":"其實我想我們這一個是本來就是全國性的那今天如果但是我們社宅的一個追求其實大家都希望照顧各個行政區的這一些需要的人那第二個我們在社宅的標準當然以最高標是5%5%其實現在各區"},{"start":7342.507,"end":7362.59,"text":"應該都還不太可能達成但是我想我想在這執行的過程當中我想說明一下執行的過程當中當然對於既有的都更已經在執行中的或是已經簽約或是已經決標的剛公告在招商所以我才說明以簽約的或是說以決標的那當然就是"},{"start":7363.23,"end":7383.101,"text":"要另外做一個處理因為我不可能去更改雙方的一個行政行政行政的相關的責任所以我想說這是第一個啦那第二個就是說對於這一類的企業因為我想你提到企業安家債我非常理解因為對於這一個高科技廠商他們的這個招商他們的招財"},{"start":7385.382,"end":7413.308,"text":"增才培訓其實大致上都會有需要所以這一個部分我想在這過程當中我們是非常認同的那所以在這過程當中我們會訂定他的所謂的除外的一個條款就是你在時程上你已經進到哪一個階段了事實上呢就不適用我想我們不會去做這類的影響所以我才會剛報告說如果他是已經絕標了沒有沒有沒有公告正在遭傷因為現在還沒有法規還沒有公告"},{"start":7413.948,"end":7434.757,"text":"所以我想我們在做這個理解上我們其實市府也有跟我們反映啦所以我們理解這個過程那我想這一個部分因為在院裡面還要再討論因為我們現在初步這個預告完成那也有各界都有提出意見我們還要進行做一些草案的一個修正方向上我還是這裡可以建議我們這乖寶寶條款跟這個壞學生條款"},{"start":7437.93,"end":7464.097,"text":"高雄就是乖寶寶條款應該給予相似度的優惠你用比例來算就知道了嘛那台中市就是顯然的壞學生嘛那整個設宅的進度然後整個房價也好等等的我覺得國路署建議國路署可以做這一個方向的研議難得今天花董事長來那也針對中油目前我們談了很久的這個幼充宿舍"},{"start":7464.677,"end":7483.577,"text":"那希望可以也有住住中心還有包含中遊跟市政府的合作那來可以跟地方的居民來做一些說明那給大家一點想像在這邊還是邀請花董另外從實設宅今年可能就即將要遭到"},{"start":7484.948,"end":7498.734,"text":"可能即將有人入住 招租大量的代管業務我那天內政委員會進行考察的時候高雄市督發局也給予很多的這些意見"},{"start":7499.813,"end":7521.325,"text":"那可能在近期也要邀請花董事長一併的來說明並且對於這些代管業提早的做一些佈局 謝謝好 謝謝委員我想高雄電油總廠 紅藍釉蔥宿舍其實我上個月才去那他們資產管理處的處長一路陪著我們這樣看"},{"start":7522.305,"end":7550.278,"text":"後面有很多可以大家一起合作的空間和機會那我們也會進行整理規劃那重石安居今年會遭租那當然我們都準備了差不多了後續因為高雄會有大量的社宅完工所以我們會有一個整大更大有系統的管理方案到時候還是跟委員報告這一次R17的這個名稱企業安家宅我覺得很可以參考啦因為未來對於紅藍社區等等的保留現有的這些應該保留的那其他"},{"start":7550.838,"end":7557.68,"text":"有空間發展的我也建議我們駐駐中心我們持續的跟中流來接洽了解 謝謝委員謝謝李博弈委員 接下來請劉許廷召委謝謝主席 吳署長有請請署長 吳署長召委好 署長早安"},{"start":7579.899,"end":7601.255,"text":"這個本期這次有提出這個都市更新條例的新增條例的這個提案那大體上都市更新基本上以權力變換的方式為之但是還是有所謂的合建等等這樣子的一個機制但是因為都市更新它其實是一門非常專業的學士所以在實務上從事都市更新的過程之中常常會因為資訊不對稱的問題去衍生很多的糾紛那麼這樣的糾紛"},{"start":7605.692,"end":7619.814,"text":"輕則影響單一都市更新的推動重則被擴散然後造成整體大家對於都市更新的不信任然後造成這個通案的難以推動我想這件事情是值得大家好好來商討的"},{"start":7620.655,"end":7644.057,"text":"那麼現在雖然有台北市政府跟新北市政府有所謂的注意事項要來調整這個資訊不對稱的問題但是強度夠不夠這我想是我提出這一次法律修正案的一個非常重要的一個原因那所以我們有參酌消費者保護法跟租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例的規定作為定型化契約的概念那麼這件事情其實就是拋磚引玉我們希望可以在討論法條的過程之中"},{"start":7645.417,"end":7666.487,"text":"去讓這個資訊不對稱的問題可以凸顯而且有一個務實的解決方案這是我想這是提案的部分那我就順著這個話我們今天質詢就來談這樣子的一個問題在合建的都跟合建契約裡面其實常常出現因為資訊不對稱所以所造成的一些衝擊比如說我舉個例子就是說要合建一定是我地主跟想要"},{"start":7667.152,"end":7687.022,"text":"從事都更的這個建商一起商量嘛對不對那在商量過程中當然就有權利物關係啊我要出多少地元啊我可以分配回來多少等等當然它是一個私契約的合意行為這個您剛剛回答很多委員質詢的時候就講得非常的清楚但就是在這個私人契約達成的過程之中有可能會出現一些狀況我就舉例跟你說比如說"},{"start":7688.102,"end":7702.607,"text":"這個有很多這個核建的都更案他們會在裡面自己訂契約啊裡面會講說比如說地主我可以撤地主啊我如果要撤銷我的都更同意書我要負賠償責任因為你說我們案子都開始了你頭都洗了對不對可是其實從都更條例第37條裡面來講你如果說這個"},{"start":7705.993,"end":7733.943,"text":"除了有特殊的規定之外可以撤銷之外也有啊比如說所有權人如果在公開展覽計畫所載更新之後分配的權利價值是低於出去同意書者所以就是地主的保障條款嘛你不能說公展之後反而條件變更差嘛如果條件變更差你就允許地主退出嘛對不對這其實是對於願意出地的地主的一個保障條款對不對可是很多地主不見得知道這件事啊他不見得了解獨根條例37條有規定有保障他的條款"},{"start":7734.423,"end":7750.36,"text":"以至於他在跟建商跟開發商定義讀跟契約的時候就說好我如果撤回同意書我要負賠償責任好問題就出現了嘛如果真的出現這樣的狀況的時候變成要嘛他要忍受不平等的待遇要嘛他撤銷要負責賠償法律之間彼此也會出現衝突的情況"},{"start":7751.961,"end":7766.312,"text":"這就是我覺得資訊不對稱會帶來的問題其他的相關的樣態還有包含比如說額外的容積獎勵他們自己協議說我地主是不能分享的多賺的都算建商的或者是說也禁止這個地主去找其他的建商來做洽談"},{"start":7767.333,"end":7792.054,"text":"那就造成所謂的不公平的競爭就是壟斷的這樣一個概念這些都是在目前的機制下用合議方式處理的時候可能會對於相對來講地主出現保障不足資訊不對稱造成不公平契約的這樣子的一個狀況那請問署長遇到這些狀況這些樣態應該要怎麼辦如果我們不用定型化契約的方式來處理有沒有好的方法來處理請署長回答"},{"start":7792.899,"end":7810.44,"text":"也跟委員報告的確也是這幾年來這個這個樣態已經太多樣化那所以導致說他很難用公法的定義去把它框住因為框住的時候有好有壞壞的時候就是你雙方的協議內容他就不一定能夠成為計劃書的一個"},{"start":7812.881,"end":7823.318,"text":"的標準因為我們在相關的權力變換價值上面都有固定的計算法但是合建是他允許雙方用協議的方式這也是我們在為什麼一開始也不太"},{"start":7823.976,"end":7843.579,"text":"想去推因為你你影響了現在雙方在執行中的協議的內容那但是委員所提到的的確就是尤其在地主端比較容易有資訊不對稱他不曉得在法規如果回歸到都更條例他有哪一些是可以受保障雙方應該要納進去的那這也是我們為什麼在"},{"start":7844.4,"end":7861.98,"text":"跟各縣市政府討論的時候大家都傾向去嚴定出更多的注意事項那但是呢只要有案件在談協議的時候我們就主動提供給雙方去作為在簽訂協議的時候的一個認知那第二個呢就是有所謂的風險控管事項"},{"start":7863.301,"end":7890.833,"text":"風險控管事項就是會回應到剛剛委員所提到的我過程當中可能因為政策或法規的更動導致雙方的權利義務關係有可能產生變化那這一些要怎麼去因應那第三個也就是甚至也有人提到要不要所謂的強制信託的概念但是因為強制信託又屬於民的部分所以我們會傾向把它都列入到相關的風險控管機制裡面那提供給雙方去做彈性調整"},{"start":7891.773,"end":7903.1,"text":"那因為合建的形態太多,包含我們剛剛所講的,從早期協議合建,到了分屋,甚至有分屋還有分售,還有投資的分層,那這些我們變成說樣態太多,但是我們很難去單一,所以我們會列舉各類型的注意事項。"},{"start":7912.766,"end":7928.739,"text":"然後提供給這個提供給雙方讓他們在這過往當中這樣也能夠保障他們在既有的制度下能夠繼續去推動這樣子好了啦就是說你因為也有很多人提醒就是說你如果用一種定型化契約就要規範所有的樣態他可能會造成"},{"start":7929.159,"end":7951.669,"text":"溝通上的困難這個本席願意理解但是我們一定要開始討論這個題目這是我們提案的這個初衷我一向都會給行政單位時間我剛剛聽了很多委員也對這個東西有提出想法那署長的回應其實也蠻清楚就是說樣態很多還有待整理那也希望是不是要剛剛有回答其他委員您有講問一問地方政府的意見那我就直接那我就乾脆開功課啦"},{"start":7952.549,"end":7973.769,"text":"核建糾紛的各種樣態各種樣態是什麼你署裡面總要做一個調查吧對不對哪一些是因為資訊不對稱大概大的類別是哪幾種都抵觸了哪些法規你總要做一個完整研究報告我想這第一個功課第二個功課了解一下各地方政府的執行狀況現在台北市新北市有注意事項這個注意事項好不好用"},{"start":7974.429,"end":8003.16,"text":"有沒有有效的降低核建的糾紛有沒有讓資訊的揭露更加的透明讓雙方在這個資訊不對稱的狀況有沒有改善這我覺得也要有一個完整的說明如果有 其他縣市政府其實應該跟上嘛對不對 因為到處都有督更案慢慢遲早我們要把這個遊戲規則建立好嘛對不對 就這兩個大的功課那這些的報告可以做為未來我們要怎麼來修正法律作為很重要的一個參考來 部長 我要麻煩你一下這你要特別督導因為我覺得這是蠻重要的"},{"start":8004.039,"end":8020.116,"text":"我們現在這個要立個小軍令狀這其實不用那麼嚴肅但多少時間之內我們國督署可以把這個功課做出來作為我們討論這個法案的參考部長您心裡有沒有數對 報告委員您提的這個修正草案其實我們部裡頭跟署裡頭花很多時間來討論"},{"start":8021.798,"end":8031.48,"text":"所以我們原則上是希望第一個給我們一點時間跟地方主管機關把所有的樣態以及主管機關他現在有的職權跟我們國土署所授予的職權要能夠弄清楚這是一個那再來就是有關您剛剛所提到的這個都更條例調次的安排是不是放在四條之一啊這個有關合建契約剛剛那個我們署長講得非常清楚必須要再討論一下講清楚一點"},{"start":8046.804,"end":8071.864,"text":"那這個部分呢我們第一個就是我不曉得大院有沒有可能開公聽會按照地方政府上面對於都市更新以及剛剛有提到我們未來的發展還包括我們都更跟危老條例要做那個延長或是要做其他的這個更動部分全部包在一起的話我們是樂觀其成那如果沒有的話就是國土署自己來跟地方政府來處理有關於這個尤其是這一條都更條例裡面"},{"start":8073.345,"end":8090.312,"text":"我們覺得要成就這樣子法條裡面所欠缺的部分來做補足所以時間你大概要多少時間去做這個事我們在今年內應該可以完成今年內半年內可以完成我希望啦反正這個會期看起來還要繼續延長啦我就希望"},{"start":8091.164,"end":8118.276,"text":"早一點有好的消息啦因為我覺得這是民生的事情嘛早一點討論然後也許有一個大家好的平衡我們就早一點讓這樣的新的制度可以上路我覺得這是我的期待好不好 這我覺得晚年太久了我想我也會主動跟地方政府還有相關的公會團體那甚至有一些案例我們也會邀請案例的地主都一起過來大家來表達一些意見那我們把問題都中整清楚三個月啦 好不好 三個月"},{"start":8119.076,"end":8142.027,"text":"或者是你要有隨時報告的這樣子的一個準備啊對不對了解我想我們三個月內先完成相關的開會跟意見的收整好你會後提供一個三個月的時間的時間表啦就是說你可能三個月內不見的會馬上有一個明確的結論但你這三個月你要做什麼嘛好對不對我能夠把研究報告做出來嗎我能夠統審樣態嗎我能夠跟地方政府開多少次會排個時間表出來會後來做參考可以嗎"},{"start":8143.208,"end":8157.52,"text":"好那最後我只有一句話提醒你那個老屋延壽的部分補助不是解決根本問題的方法根本問題方法之前我們在這邊開公聽會有討論其實應該設計公寓大廈的長期修繕計畫這我們後面有時間再來探討好不好請做好準備謝謝好謝謝牛許廷召委謝謝下一位我們請徐欣英委員質詢"},{"start":8175.148,"end":8179.81,"text":"好謝謝主席本席有請劉部長劉部長有請佑文好部長好本席就先就剛剛有關我們這個合建契約的問題直接再追問就是說我們在這個合建契約"},{"start":8199.079,"end":8227.796,"text":"是否內政部有一些數據統計可以佐證就是說合建契約是否會因為行政審議的意見不一致導致履約過程中出現大量的訴訟爭端有沒有這種情況我請署長回答署長好感謝啦因為合建契約它內容不會反映不一定會反映在杜庚的計劃書裡面它往往都是雙方私人合議的一些內容"},{"start":8229.317,"end":8248.736,"text":"過去的經驗有沒有過去的經驗就是很容易因為資訊不對稱他不曉得都更的條例裡面有什麼樣的保障第二個呢過程當中有遇到政策或法令的修正導致雙方的權利義務會發生改變那這些就是一般在合建契約裡面最常出現的問題"},{"start":8249.657,"end":8272.107,"text":"那內政部有沒有規劃建立那種合建契約的參考版本或資訊平台讓各類型契約有指引就是因為樣態太多種我們樣態太多種沒有辦法用範本的方式因為你就依據不同樣態開始來做跟委員報告因為第一個這是私人契約我們不曉得他們中間的協議內容因為協議內容甚至從"},{"start":8276.649,"end":8296.304,"text":"單純的分屋分地道我沒辦法建立參考版本有沒有諮詢平台所以我根本報告就是說過去我們跟地方政府討論像雙北他們就是去訂出所謂的注意事項那我們覺得注意事項是一個非常好的機制那本席的問題就是說那有沒有要請各縣市政府他可以有一些諮詢平台"},{"start":8298.085,"end":8313.86,"text":"報告一下我們本來就有補助各縣市政府有相關的輔導團跟專案辦公室那你們的指導有沒有要他成立這個諮詢平台說明一下現在就是透過輔導團跟專案辦公室他們本身就可以做這些事情"},{"start":8314.594,"end":8331.092,"text":"那現在只是說他們可以做但是他們有沒有做是一回事其實都有他們都有在接受做這些那接著本席繼續問針對核建爭議較多的類型是否可以先行分類建議原則性的指導"},{"start":8333.371,"end":8349.438,"text":"報告就是說我們現在就是跟地方政府討論雙北現在是用注意事項也就是說你在訂定這個合建契約的時候雙方要注意哪些內容那第二個呢我們現在還有在討論就是說另外叫做風險控管事項"},{"start":8350.998,"end":8379.013,"text":"風險控管制也就把過去常發生的樣態你們在執行過程當中要注意哪些執行的風險那提醒雙方在這合約裡面都應該要去注意或建立一些制度那目前部內有沒有五年合建案件爭議類型的分類統計報告目前是沒有但是我們都是透過這個部分我想我剛剛的意思就是說我們透過在跟地方開會請他們把這一類的案件"},{"start":8379.893,"end":8395.619,"text":"過去所發生的糾紛通通大家統整起來我們來進行做一些分類那也可以提供作為後面我們要訂定相關注意事項跟風險控管事項的這個依據好那最後合建契約協議的輔導小組這一個可以來成立嗎"},{"start":8400.209,"end":8408.631,"text":"包括就是我們會如果這個內容出來我們一樣會交給地方政府你會不會明確的規範請他們有這樣的一個小組對對應該這麼說啦就是我們目前的預算來講是用輔導團跟專案辦公室的形式那未來我們就再來跟在後面的委託裡面呢就會請他們把這些要輔導這個這個協議合建的部分一併都納進來"},{"start":8427.554,"end":8453.972,"text":"好謝謝那接著本席要接著問請教部長現在我們整個耐震弱成補強的這樣的一個推動成效好像不是很好報告因為其實我們每年都有編這個成效然後再來就是你一年也沒編多少錢我們一年有大概一億多一億多你看一年只可以補助幾戶你自己說應該這麼說我跟委員報告因為其實耐震補強的過程"},{"start":8455.473,"end":8465.502,"text":"就會從出箱品開始那目前來講有一些民眾是不太願意是因為他們很擔心列出來的時候狀況沒有很好"},{"start":8467.1,"end":8489.142,"text":"中環沒有很好所以他沒辦法他會影響他的房價所以他不太願意跨出第一步但是因為從921之後然後陸續一些大地震我們都知道說我們事先的補強會有助於未來就是說預防災害的發生那如果你一年一億多我算了一下大概幾十戶"},{"start":8492.097,"end":8506.195,"text":"我們大概一年大概是五到七件五到七件對啊一年才五到七件一年大概是五到七件那你看全國一個縣是分不到一件所以這個我覺得很值得"},{"start":8507.556,"end":8534.493,"text":"檢討啊那因為我們有感覺到你在都會區或在非都會區應該是有它的差異像我們部長當過副市長嘛這光是高雄市區跟有沒有以前的高雄縣它就不一樣還有像我們其他非六都的縣市那其實有這種資訊落差的問題所謂資訊落差就是可能有些民眾他不知道"},{"start":8535.333,"end":8562.494,"text":"其实以一般非都会区它也没有什么会影响它地价你这个可能还是都市思维所以这个部分我们是希望你这样一亿多真的太少好像只是点缀式的没有真的要做那这一块其实也是民众的权益民众的权益健全我们整个都市的发展我们都应该要兼顾所以这个部分应该要来加强吧"},{"start":8563.212,"end":8583.72,"text":"這跟文報告啦其實我們大概每年都有去各縣市做推廣各縣市做推廣那其實我們剛剛講的是一個沒有各縣市推廣可是你一年只有幾間大概過去的經驗就去推廣大概民眾的反應是這樣啦因為尤其大概對於老舊的公寓大概都會有整合的問題因為要提到那陣補強"},{"start":8584.929,"end":8596.884,"text":"那其實大家都要共同出資啦因為不會政府不可能百分之百還是會有共同出資的問題但是就會就會出現有人願意出資 有人不願意出資所以我們過去的輔導案件很多 整合的問題嘛對 也會出現整合的問題所以"},{"start":8601.325,"end":8615.873,"text":"過去在這個案例當中公寓大廈的管理組織其實是非常重要他要能夠去溝通所有的住戶大家一起願意來做那這也是一個很重要的成敗關鍵所以過去曾經我們也高達一年要編師幾億"},{"start":8617.054,"end":8638.717,"text":"但是慢慢減少也是因為實際上就是因為你們落實不了所以一直減少應該是說在民眾這兩步要能跨得出去這樣會比較容易來執行那我們的宣導還有我們很多的溝通甚至我們的協助也很重要啊是譬如說我們有沒有考慮那種一站式的服務窗口讓各直轄市也好縣市政府"},{"start":8639.378,"end":8662.748,"text":"我們應該就是說這個政策我們利益非常好剛剛署長講了本來一年可能十幾億甚至我們如果做得好幾十億我們就應該為民眾的這種耐震的弱成補強來加強那可是呢就實施的不好實施不好是因為什麼是因為我覺得有資訊的落差"},{"start":8664.274,"end":8690.08,"text":"還有我們沒有確實去落實所以今天因為剛好有類似的議題所以本席也在這邊要特別的來強調部長加油一點可以嗎我們會來跟地方來加強第一個溝通第二個是宣傳把問題找出來然後我們應該要加強宣導然後地方政府他也應該要有一些這種服務的窗口要做好我想這我們後面會來加強宣導感謝"},{"start":8693.464,"end":8702.407,"text":"謝謝徐欣穎委員 報告委員會 我們在林郡縣委員諮詢完後休息五分鐘下一位請鄭振淺委員諮詢鄭振淺委員 鄭振淺委員不在下一位我們請林郡縣委員諮詢謝主席 本席邀請我們內政部的劉部長劉部長有請還有我們國土署吳署長有請"},{"start":8720.936,"end":8740.373,"text":"林委員好保證你好 部長部長我現在要講的是對於南科周邊交通非常重要的建設這相關地理位置部長不一定清楚啦 但吳署長非常了解那只要拜託部長 部長你負責支持就好了第一個 南科啊"},{"start":8744.81,"end":8774.15,"text":"南科現在發展非常快速他去年產值就已經超過足科了而且就業人口飛來越來越多但是他周邊的交通趕不上他的發展所以其實從賴清德總統擔任市長的時候他就準備要再多建幾條橋跨過曾文溪其中南科那條烏橋中路這輸掉你知道嗎烏橋中路現在從南科幾乎是由南向西北"},{"start":8774.77,"end":8774.804,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":8775.339,"end":8804.338,"text":"由南向西北喔 將它弄到曾文溪變成不飛行啦我們現在要起一條橋由烏橋中路喔 建一條跨曾文溪的大橋 到麻豆讓南科的人到麻豆 十分鐘啦 一樣啦 麻豆要來南科也十分鐘啦所以說你現在烏橋中路從南科到麻豆 過溪溪邊一條防汛道路喔 叫南四十嘛我們要先平安嘛 南四十你現在"},{"start":8805.697,"end":8826.167,"text":"目前的計畫喔 蘇長 我們是向北走啦是先走到第一階段 走到麻山大橋嘛是對不對 對但是到麻山大橋是還不夠啦它的效應應該在麻山大橋再往東北去走到北阿西啦接到八十四快速道路啦是後面這一段喔 我們趕快再納入新的計畫啦但是 這整個經緯喔"},{"start":8832.878,"end":8859.305,"text":"差不多要30倍的話那我們地方自籌8億8千萬的話可能需要中央補助大概有29億多了那現在也感謝啦 我知道部長有給我們支持部長也有支持我們這條橋的計劃所以希望在今年能夠先核定我們的先期的工程款"},{"start":8861.035,"end":8864.978,"text":"OK 因為這 開始那個委員 跟貴委員兩個 都有去現場有請出國立便 都有來請出國立便 其實這幾天來 市府都有站出來所以在這個新澤當中 列到生活圈的部分 我們大概從兩年前就開始"},{"start":8879.769,"end":8902.019,"text":"協助市府在提出相關的申請那所以在今年的部分我們都有簽報到部裡面那因為審議會的部分大概沒有問題因為所有的審查委員都認同這條道路的這個烏橋中路的一個重要性還有這個南市市的這個拓寬我想這部分我們後續都會持續來協助好 非常感謝署長 保證再拜託"},{"start":8904.681,"end":8923.204,"text":"這個其實喊了很多年啦你看從賴總統當賴市長的時候就開始規劃那地方聽到這樣的一個無潮中路的跨西大橋跨正溫區大橋大概五六年前一直到現在啦現在我們才總算有核定下來報告林委員我在上個禮拜已經有批准了"},{"start":8924.035,"end":8947.833,"text":"對 我知道 你有就批的是第一期的先期工程款啦對當然我後面會是滾動式來進行啦對 因為土地取得的部分還要再處理啦對其他的都不是困難的地方說明會也已經在開完了啦對那我會請市政府的相關單位公務局等來全力配合我們內政部這裡是那也感謝部長的支持啦但是一條橋要不夠啦其實要再需要另外一條橋啦這條橋叫做南41啦"},{"start":8956.529,"end":8963.575,"text":"因為現在台南南柯對外的一條命脈叫西港大橋西港大橋最塞車的橋有15名公務總局的統計早上七點到八點上班時間一個小時超過三千輛車上橋"},{"start":8976.889,"end":8983.111,"text":"所以我剛才說的烏橋中路就要解決舒緩西港大橋的塞車 還有這條橋這條就是嘉麗的南40號直接往南來跨過曾文溪 走到台南才有新街"},{"start":8999.683,"end":9011.472,"text":"讓嘉麗要過來到市區往南道市區不必再走西港大橋同樣可以減緩西港大橋的塞車我們辦過幾次的會跟內政部國土署"},{"start":9016.581,"end":9033.755,"text":"我在上個月也在我辦公室召開協調會我們書裡面也表達同意今天在這裡拜託保證我再讓你知道這個事情也請保證要支持了解因為剛起步我想我們都會一路協助市府逐步來提"},{"start":9034.395,"end":9056.054,"text":"那他或許在甚至在這一期還來不及但是我想有提案的話有提案的話就算這一期來不及也會把它延續到下一期去執行對因為南科一定非常重要全世界最重要的高科技的半導體相關東西都在南科生產所以我們必須要改善它已經非常嚴重的對外交通所以這條橋再做起來的話"},{"start":9059.416,"end":9078.77,"text":"那對於當地交通的改善喔 這個也非常有用拜託請主席再給我一分鐘啦喔 另外一個喔這條路就輸掉了 我知道 這個非常地方啦 就像溪水路喔 古溪水路到明陵路路口就是說你走明陵路 你要往裡面溪水路喔 這喜思路它有兩節嘛"},{"start":9080.151,"end":9085.296,"text":"那裡只有8米啦進去又變成18米啦所以經常發生車禍啦所以我們以前有說這個明天喔 我禮拜那時候這才有700多米喔要把它拓乾到18米"},{"start":9096.633,"end":9120.685,"text":"市長你 我覺得你在台南的選擇 何時選擇你廢坑也把你提到這條路有 你之前廢坑的選擇就提出來 企務也有提出來所以他前面那個擁地的部分 他已經在進行了市府提出來是因為市府要負責土地對所以他們現在已經在進行了所以這個部分在生活圈的審查裡面大概也沒有問題因為這個是很明確屬於平井路段要打通"},{"start":9121.705,"end":9139.674,"text":"這條我拜託保庭,保庭有答應把它框架起來,不想要把它框架下來現在就等我們地方完整相關土地的地格,我們就可以來做了這個沒有問題,因為剛好灣里的重劃也要,洗漱灣里的重劃也要完成喔,它在陽果地啦,以前我告訴你,它在陽果地現在種的要好了,所以它會長很多人啦"},{"start":9142.876,"end":9160.652,"text":"所以這條路的拓寬是適合的那我們感謝部長的支持那或許的話在地方的用地取得然後再跟內政部這裡來配合好不好是好感謝部長感謝署長好謝謝主席好謝謝林俊憲委員我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":9555.717,"end":9565.34,"text":"報告委員會我們繼續開會我們今天中午不休息現在我們請鄭天才委員質詢鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在下一位我們請徐富貴委員質詢謝主席有請我們劉部長跟我們國度署吳署長劉部長吳署長有請徐委員好"},{"start":9586.235,"end":9613.805,"text":"部長我想我們過去謝謝部長一直關心我們屏東縣的各項建設但是我們現在還是有幾個問題要請部長再繼續給我們支持部長我們去年成功達成八年二十萬的社宅的一個政策目標那我們目前訂立的新的目標是2032年要達到一百萬那目前這個案子"},{"start":9614.52,"end":9637.45,"text":"看起來大概是六度的比例比較高那非六度的部分加起來好像連第四名的桃園市都還有一點落差那我想當然區域均衡發展是一個未來我們很重要的一個政策我想也是我們賴總統一直要求的一個處理的一個機制那針對屏東縣的部分部長這部分能不能再給我們怎麼樣的一個協助好謝謝感謝委員因為"},{"start":9642.068,"end":9650.257,"text":"其實我們在非六都也沒有放棄因為我們也參考地方的實際需求來做佈建以屏東來講在屏東市區還有內埔、潮州"},{"start":9657.185,"end":9675.573,"text":"那還有到到這個恆春那甚至到相關的這個萬丹什麼也都在有研力在設置那所以我們這樣用逐步的佈建只要地方需求是很明確的這我們都會去努力我想我們都市的一個進步我們也需要做很多的一個超前的規劃跟部署啦那當然目前"},{"start":9676.273,"end":9693.333,"text":"我們屏東市跟潮州都已經在興建當中那另外還有規劃了三個地方那其中恆春的部分112年就已經我們已經完成絕標待開工但到目前為止好像還沒有一個進度目前有遇到什麼困境嗎"},{"start":9695.103,"end":9719.362,"text":"我們說因為他前期就會有這一個呃相關的這個規劃設計還有這一個都市設計的審查那所以我們大概都會有給他一個預定的期間啦所以不會說絕標完馬上開工因為他後面還有細部設計跟相關的審查進行有有都有照進度在執行蘇良大概什麼時候可以動工這部分看住都這邊有沒有呃名比較明確的時間恆春的部分對"},{"start":9727.489,"end":9741.39,"text":"八五園恆春當然絕標 現在在設計中要申請建造 那個通過之後就會舉辦開工典禮 今年會有機會嗎我們拚看看 拚今年 拚這個 其他的部分包含我們潮州還有其他"},{"start":9742.06,"end":9753.986,"text":"科學園區周邊的萬丹 我想未來我們都是有計劃能夠希望再配合縣政府 我們就繼續研議看適合的地點跟那個需求啦我想還是我們趕快來盤點啦 那這部分我也會請我們縣政府這邊來配合一下啦那另外我想"},{"start":9762.199,"end":9776.464,"text":"要謝謝部長我們去年的時候針對我們這個整個墾丁國家公園有一些的洋傘之亂這些問題我想都有目前都有一個很好的一個改善的一個方案那但是現在還是有幾個問題要請部長這邊來幫忙部長我想過去我們國家公園這個"},{"start":9780.712,"end":9802.315,"text":"墾丁國家公園已經成立41年了也是我們全國第一個國家公園但是過去因為我們著重在一個生態保育的一個觀念裡面但是現在我們的觀光發展已經到一個階段了那我想我們國家公園署成立之後也應該把觀光的一個要件應該併在我們的一個工作的一個項目裡面部長認同嗎"},{"start":9805.117,"end":9824.327,"text":"謝謝因為國家公園署也剛成立不久那我們一定會配合包括地方上面在墾丁國家公園的部分那其實兩個禮拜前我們也在那邊有辦過音樂祭的活動可能許委員非常清楚目前洋傘的之亂其實獲得比較大的改善但是還仍然還有精進的空間"},{"start":9825.68,"end":9846.811,"text":"我們也是希望加快我們整個因為跟交通部我們陳部長有提過我們希望跨部會來整合尤其我們這個整個棚管處的範圍一直到我們坑管處的範圍其實都可以連成一個袋裝的觀光地帶那當然我們一定贊成生態保護一點愛者這是我們最重要的一個資源但是觀光的部分一定要跨部會來整合"},{"start":9847.794,"end":9857.143,"text":"那部長另外一個很嚴重的問題是說我們的米耗跟梅花路數量太多而且把我們的這個農作物破壞得很嚴重我們到底有沒有一個策略可以來處理"},{"start":9858.609,"end":9877.451,"text":"是 報告委員那個墾丁國家公園的部分跟其他國家公園都一樣都有碰到這個猕猴或者是梅花鹿甚至還有綠烈蜥這個部分那因為目前我們的主管機關大概是農業部我們會配合農業部因為它既然是生態保育"},{"start":9877.991,"end":9878.992,"text":"這真的很困難"},{"start":9903.148,"end":9908.631,"text":"這真的比較困難所以我想說 是不是可以 屏東管政部跟農業部的林保署可以共同來配合 我們一定會配合 這部分我們希望部長你有那個高度 我相信大家會來合作一下怎麼樣有效地來遏止這樣的一個生態的浩劫好 謝謝"},{"start":9932.02,"end":9934.465,"text":"謝謝徐副委員下一位我們請張雅玲委員質詢"},{"start":9942.092,"end":9966.878,"text":"謝謝主席 那麼有請署長吳署長有請部長可以先休息部長先休息一下好 我很好好 謝謝謝謝署長那主要就是說因為根據都市計畫法第45條裡面它一條規定叫做公園 體育場所 綠地 兒童遊戲場等等因依計畫人口密度及自然環境作為系統之部件除具有特殊情形外"},{"start":9967.558,"end":9989.415,"text":"其佔有地面積總面積不得少於全部計劃的面積10%這是目前我們的都市計劃法有一這樣子的規定但是我調閱了相關國土署的一些統計資料從110年到112年基本上最高的只有澎湖縣達到接近10%就是9.6%其他都是低於的"},{"start":9990.877,"end":10013.636,"text":"第二個就是高雄市有到8.7那許多縣市大概是持平或是維持逐步微微的上漲但是有三個縣市第一個就是嘉義縣它從3.3到現在已經只剩2.9那嘉義市也是那其中彰化縣是從6降到2.4%那我想了解因為我們做這些"},{"start":10014.817,"end":10041.5,"text":"調查應該是逐步的希望說我們可以達到10%嘛那現在針對於這些掉下來的我們沒有去了解原因是什麼報告因為這一個10%這一個的確當時的定義是希望台灣的這個都市計畫區的公共設施品質尤其是公園綠地方面能夠逐步的成長那事實上在但真的在修法之後回過頭去檢視才發現既有的都市計畫區幾乎都不太可能"},{"start":10042.24,"end":10070.226,"text":"那後來有些為了要補足這樣一個面積在規劃的過程當中去大肆做了很多的補正補強去規劃但是事實上又面對了它化了以後又要面臨徵收的問題那所以在長期間這樣二三十年下來也發現確實是難以執行那所以後來在相關的公設保留地的策略裡面呢去允許他做一些檢討所以他做一些檢討就如果確實難以執行的部分"},{"start":10070.806,"end":10097.906,"text":"可能必須要檢討去取消那所以才會有這樣的一個政策的循環但是另外一個就是說大家對於可以取得的這樣的一個項目裡面就透過去加強做建設來希望來補足對這一個都市計畫區內民眾的一個實際需要那其他的部分就透過比較大型的開放空間的設計才去做要求也就是說你有大的建案那我就鼓勵你去做留設開放空間出來來"},{"start":10099.656,"end":10117.234,"text":"另外一種類型的去補足公園綠地的一個不足是這樣的一個概念但是我想了解就是說最主要是我們今天為什麼要公園綠地或是兒童遊戲場的空間最主要是提升生活品質嘛對不對這是世界的一些要求嘛但是我想針對的是彰化縣它從6它原本可以做到6可是它降到2.4%"},{"start":10119.092,"end":10140.512,"text":"這或許是一個統計上的一個落差啦因為我們不太可能讓他減那麼多這部分是不是容我們回去再調查清楚再回來告訴再給我們一個簡單的說明好不好那第二個部分就是說因為剛剛有講到說現在要達到這10%非常難但是你們有透過一些方法怎樣去爭取一些開放空間那我想了解一下更精確的我們如果針對一些重劃區我們有一些重劃區的案子"},{"start":10140.872,"end":10166.358,"text":"是不是可以從這裡面也去來要求呢有沒有一些更積極的作為可以去要求他們去開設出這樣子的綠地特別是兒童遊戲場的部分跟委員報告的確因為委員這樣的要求我覺得事實上是可行的只是說過去在相關重化的公共建設的項目裡面是公園綠地通常都是先以綠地化的方式配上少部分的油氣設施去執行"},{"start":10167.958,"end":10186.061,"text":"他當時擔心的就是說我做了以後萬一五年內人口不夠多我很可能又要面臨設施更新所以他在早期的這個重化工程的項目裡面並不會特別去做那通常都是透過事後的追加也就是透過這個重化工程的盈餘再去做補足這樣的設施"},{"start":10187.322,"end":10197.694,"text":"那有關這一點我想我們可以再跟地政司再跟地政司去討論看看是不是請他來要求各地方政府在執行公園 純化區的公園綠地的工程項目裡面主動把兒童遊戲設施"},{"start":10202.339,"end":10224.091,"text":"把他納進去那這樣他在第一時間就可以執行不然這就會變成是說你等到都已經蓋好了之後你這一塊又變成是你要到你只能在那個很有限的面積裡面去做對又到時候又變成大家互爭空間互相爭空間這個部分大概我們什麼時候可以來追相關的進度的我想委員這個存語我想我來跟地政司討論一下因為地政司他必須要找各縣市政府"},{"start":10224.651,"end":10232.943,"text":"去討論把它納到項目裡面去好那我們一個月之後我們再來跟您了解一下進度好嗎好那謝謝那我們先找一下都督中心抱歉剩下24秒很快請花董事長"},{"start":10236.055,"end":10259.695,"text":"好 謝謝喔 董事長好 就是說因為住宿中心就是管我們很多的社宅的建制嘛那但是因為我之前看了一些社宅的建案裡面通常兒少休息設施是比較少的 比較說是一些可能是一些開放空間啊 有一些步道那這個部分我們是不是也可以在相關的社宅把兒少遊戲空間這東西把它納入呢 主動納入這個部分當然就我們的"},{"start":10261.136,"end":10289.251,"text":"開放的空間的部分我們會做一些整理規劃那委員今天提起來我們回去就來規劃檢討那最後一點時間就是說我希望這次可以來把它納入因為竟然社宅就是會很多年輕家庭那也有可能是長照的設施大家會需要一些休憩的設備這個部分應該要主動納入那同時我也希望在做這些相關規劃的時候我們可以找一些兒少的專家團體一起來看這些設施是不是有符合那邊未來的一些需求好不好"},{"start":10289.491,"end":10291.172,"text":"OK好謝謝謝謝委員指導好謝謝我們張雅玲委員剛剛委員詢答要提的相關資料請部會會後提供好下一位我們請吳啟明委員質詢"},{"start":10311.52,"end":10321.325,"text":"好 主席 我們與會同仁 請我們內政部不用 部長不用我們花俊請請花董事長好 發誓還有我們國土署署長吳組長有請好 兩位市長針對我們的都市老舊建築物"},{"start":10338.686,"end":10343.308,"text":"的整建,因為這是我們上會期,發展前還沒當董事長所以那時候我們要補助這圍爐,圍爐的費用現在我看,全國的超過30年的已經"},{"start":10357.412,"end":10362.975,"text":"還有存在喔非常的多那尤其雙北就佔了150萬戶那未來呢我們這補助的經費沒有了那未來我們推動可能又會自愛燃省"},{"start":10375.764,"end":10393.46,"text":"因為危老重建條例的部分因為到116年就落日所以各界其實都希望我們來延長這部分我們已經有在研擬修法的內容就可以來推出第二個就是說我們也會把原來的相關的規模獎勵來做一些延續當然都會經過檢討看看大家實施的狀況我們會來做一個調整"},{"start":10400.467,"end":10406.308,"text":"那大致上朝向修法延長的部分大概沒有問題會朝這個方向來進行因為我們台灣是在我們的地層 地層帶上面所以說你超過30年的維羅這都是急迫性我們要去推動所以說你在補助的方面要是缺少了那民間投資意願又減少那你這個推動就自愛人心"},{"start":10428.506,"end":10454.907,"text":"這一點是我們中央政府要去考量所以在這裡我也要拜託說有錢的你看現在我們很多地震包含在我們新北到過去我們的花蓮新北這裡他的房子已經都不能住了,他也都可以退房單但是你說他還存在台灣存在非常多所以說這個部分"},{"start":10456.636,"end":10465.119,"text":"也拜託我們中央政府,拜託國土署,大家共同推動好,那署長你先等我,我問花次好,董事長,現在我們社會住宅,尤其在我的選區裡面現在目前要推動,尤其,我說過去在我們中央路的一間市村,延滅機會最大"},{"start":10482.384,"end":10508.237,"text":"那些都是原地的,現在沒錢,那些地會幾位有辦法落實下去推動嗎?所以我請這幾位來問這個OK,跟委員報告,那個我們的名稱叫做土城熱力段那一塊我們已經朝用我們自己出資來做都更的方式來蓋社會住宅現在已經整合的比例非常高,我們暗算應該是"},{"start":10510.305,"end":10510.686,"text":"因為我們社會住宅"},{"start":10519.946,"end":10543.22,"text":"普遍的民眾 大家的接受度都非常高所以說接受度高 我們如果推動了讓我們能夠顧到 大家可以居住正義也顧到很多年輕人 很多弱勢的人因為大家有一個好處因為你現在說要買一般的住宅現在先去的 根本你如果說上班族的啦還是弱勢的 他們根本就買不起"},{"start":10544.521,"end":10563.255,"text":"所以說你社會住宅一推動普遍接受度都是非常高所以說在這個部分我們一定要說冠軍來推動 尤其我們現在有很多從化區從化區的比例 社會住宅的比例一定要把"},{"start":10563.895,"end":10586.573,"text":"再加進去還有我們一些國有土地國有土地其實很多啊國有土地因為你社會住宅既然接受度高又可以壓制於房價所以現在推動普遍民眾接受度是我們鋪裡面跟署裡面都有在盤點然後就只是我們住入中心來辦"},{"start":10587.881,"end":10597.948,"text":"對 因為我們大家對我們政府也很有信心不然你說很多人買不起房子到時候也說中央的政策是不是有問題你有問題 我們就趕快說朝廷說一般他們的需求"},{"start":10603.021,"end":10625.276,"text":"這是我們中央政府要來推動的目標啦 好不好好 謝謝委員好 感謝 謝謝也感謝召委啦好 謝謝吳清明委員的諮詢辛苦 喘口氣 喘口氣好 下一位我們請蔡易瑜委員諮詢蔡易瑜委員 蔡易瑜委員不在下一位我們請王宏威委員諮詢"},{"start":10632.622,"end":10636.333,"text":"好謝謝主席我請部長還有署長吳署長有請"},{"start":10641.104,"end":10660.036,"text":"王委員好 部長好 署長好延續剛才吳委員特別提到的危老的時程獎勵事實上在去年的4月份同樣在內政委員會我就特別的提及有關於我們的危老因為我們的時程獎勵遞減一直到5月10號之後也就現在事實上已經沒有時程獎勵了"},{"start":10668.121,"end":10694.113,"text":"所以當時在一年之前我就提出因為在尤其在都會區尤其在雙北因為我們的老舊房子非常非常之多那麼危老重建其實有其必要所以我當時就要求我們內政部還有我們國土署要針對危老的部分在實成獎勵應該提出新的辦法但是非常可惜一年過去了"},{"start":10694.973,"end":10721.662,"text":"一年過去了時辰獎勵歸為零了就是歸為零他事實上就已經沒有誘因了當然我知道你們現在提出來所謂的規模獎勵可是確實危老獎勵就是因為他沒有有的是比較小範圍他可以趕快的去做重建因為你要把它變得更大的一個範圍的話其實他要去協調的人"},{"start":10723.042,"end":10750.212,"text":"就住戶就非常多好我們來看因為我們知道在今年就是因為實產獎勵即將落日所以呢在今年年初那麼整個的危老重建的計畫這個案子就來得非常非常之多所以如果你可以看六都來說以危老重建計畫跟都市更新的進度危老的件數要遠遠大於都市更新對不對"},{"start":10751.132,"end":10773.097,"text":"他為什麼不走都市更新都市更新因為他的產權複雜所以就圍牢他比較容易嘛當然我們做整個的都更我知道你們希望能夠他的範圍大一點讓整個市容變得比較漂亮可是其實我們做圍牢有一個非常非常重要就是防災"},{"start":10774.057,"end":10799.676,"text":"就是防災所以到现在为止为老的时辰奖励已经完全没有了只剩下时辰奖励但是你的对不起只剩下规模奖励你的规模奖励真的能够去促进这些为老的重建吗你知道以我们台北市我们台北市好多其实很多的案子因为到了5月10号临了他们就通通都没有了"},{"start":10800.436,"end":10817.026,"text":"但我剛才看大概有起碼一百多件將近兩百件很可惜啊他們本來也希望趕快跟時間賽跑所以請問我一年前就提出來你不要跟我講一年後你還在研擬中那個這個就要昏倒啦"},{"start":10820.162,"end":10837.459,"text":"其實我們當時在提出以這個規模獎勵來取代實成獎勵大概就是一個概念因為實成獎勵是一個空白授權的容積獎勵空白授權的容積獎勵它對於實施者來講不需要付出其他任何代價就直接拿到的容積獎勵"},{"start":10838.806,"end":10866.272,"text":"那所以對於過去長期有出現這一種已經類似紙片屋的這個房子其實不太對於它的結構安全甚至像剛剛委員所提到的防災其實它沒有辦法有任何的幫助那規模獎勵其實我們也沒有說規模獎勵要大到很大其實它只要有提到200平方公尺所以你這個意思就是說我說明一下大概60坪的土地就可以申請到規模獎勵大概200平方公尺60坪左右"},{"start":10866.972,"end":10884.54,"text":"所以他沒有很大就可以申請到規模獎勵此外他原有的30%的容積獎勵還是都保留著所以我們是用這差距的10%我們就是用規模獎勵來做取代這一點是沒有變的因為大致上過去找地方政府來談他們也贊成其實"},{"start":10886.361,"end":10899.905,"text":"那我就要看你們最後的成果所以我剛剛講 圍牢就是因為有實成獎勵所以它的數量真的就比都更來得多很多也加速了重建因為時間關係 另外請教一下"},{"start":10902.665,"end":10917.006,"text":"去年0403花蓮地震一周年當時有很多開紅單黃單的建樹然後當時也提出了我們有補強的補貼但是我們如果來看全"},{"start":10917.907,"end":10923.389,"text":"台灣來說我們現在顯然去當時核定的這些紅單黃單的動數那麼以目前來講那麼真正核定的件數事實上呢是低於真的是遠遠低於當時的紅黃單的件數然後呢在應該上個月"},{"start":10941.394,"end":10957.9,"text":"在整個的檢討的時候那麼說在這些的補強案件裡面呢有很多在花蓮有半數呢是在卡在中央審查那我想請問一下這個進度可不可以可不可以加強加快加快進度"},{"start":10959.781,"end":10985.952,"text":"好 感謝委員因為在過程當中的確因為耐震補強的部分它要經過這個結構的設計還有結構的審查那在之前也有反應就是希望國政中心這裡能夠再提供更多的人力因為他們分三組結果民眾是認為你現在是說人數不足對 國政中心後來有加快因為它本來是三組人後來有增加到五組人"},{"start":10986.852,"end":11001.903,"text":"就是希望透過這種方式來加快審查第二個就是說跟民眾的溝通因為民眾有一些對於哪些可以列入耐震補強項目哪一些不屬於那過去一直有意見那我們前一陣子也都有請他們跟民眾做溝通"},{"start":11002.563,"end":11019.369,"text":"我覺得在台灣地震常常就是好了傷疤忘了痛在一次大電震之後過一段時間呢大家好像有點遺忘然後整個的進度就開始牛步化甚至是龜步化可是我們永遠不知道下一場大地震什麼時候來什麼時候來"},{"start":11021.65,"end":11048.425,"text":"所以你剛剛在講人數的問題我也覺得很驚訝就是說其實我們應該全力的尤其這邊已經開紅單跟黃單開紅單黃單那老實講最近花蓮附近還是一直不停的有地震頻傳所以在這個部分我希望在因為如果說還有半數都在中央卡在中央你可不可以給我一個時間你多久時間可以把它消化完成"},{"start":11049.325,"end":11050.527,"text":"我想我趕快來找這個國政中心來看看他們最近的執行進度在會後我想提供給委員這個報告提出有關於花蓮地震"},{"start":11067.546,"end":11083.028,"text":"目前的耐震補強相關不是只有花蓮我關心台北也很多台北還有新北其實老實講並不容易啦我們自己選區裡面會也是因為它不同的洞然後它就是在那一部分它很複雜"},{"start":11084.61,"end":11104.989,"text":"但是我們都很怕下一次地震來因為它會影響到其他隔壁棟它有些是連結的這邊貼黃單那邊沒有貼黃單可是旁邊沒有貼黃單也非常擔心所以這個部分請加快腳步那拜託在我們會後你可不可以一個禮拜之內給我們至少書面的說明"},{"start":11108.031,"end":11135.271,"text":"謝謝王文威委員下一位我們請邱志偉委員質詢邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在下一位我們請蘇清泉委員質詢蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在下一位我們請林楚英委員質詢林楚英委員林楚英委員不在下一位我們請楊瓊英委員質詢楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在下一位我們請何新淳委員質詢何新淳委員何新淳委員不在下一位我們請陳冠廷委員質詢陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員不在"},{"start":11135.911,"end":11159.364,"text":"最後我們請鍾嘉斌委員質詢鍾嘉斌委員不在登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢我們詢答到此結束高金素美委員 邱振軍委員 丁學忠委員所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":11161.525,"end":11178.964,"text":"報告委員會剛剛討論事項因為我們在詢答的時候已經跟國土署這邊達成共識三個月內這個政府提具相關的報告跟資料以立法案的後續審查因此討論事項所列議案另定期繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"16656","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16656","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db1a3f2a9ffa300804b6918ac9a813397514bfadd538e1bbbf94caf5a3eeb1249e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員李坤城等16人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（本日僅進行詢答；第三案及第四案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查。））","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-08","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-08T08:31:01+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-08T11:17:00+08:00","duration":9959,"影片長度":"02:45:59","委員發言時間":"08:31:01 - 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審查本院委員林一錦等22人拟據動物保護法部分條件修正草案等26案討論事項 合併詢答 委員洪孟凱 蘇巧慧 郭益晴 羅廷偉 李坤成 楊瓊英及張綺凱說明提案要旨 農業部部長陳俊記報告後 委員林戴化等18人提出質詢"},{"start":1937.672,"end":1955.238,"text":"經由農業部部長陳俊記等及其答覆登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘經與發言完畢 詢答結束委員 邱益穎 張雅玲及徐欣穎所提書面質詢列入記錄 刊登公報書面質詢核位及答覆部分及相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會決議詢答結束 令定期繼續審查"},{"start":1960.727,"end":1977.195,"text":"114年5月1日星期四討論事項審查本院委員魯明哲等19人委員謝一鳳等17人分別擬據再生能源發展條例第13條條例修正草案等二案討論事項合併詢答經濟部部長郭志輝報告後委員陳廷輝等14人提出"},{"start":1978.415,"end":1993.405,"text":"經由經濟部部長郭志輝及相關人員及其答覆登記發言委員除不在場者外 其議均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員林黛嬅所提書面質詢列入記錄 刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分 請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":1995.406,"end":2016.363,"text":"決議一第十三條條文照委員謝一鳳等人提案及委員楊強英等人所提修正動議通過二並按審查文件擬拒審查報告提報院會討論不需交由黨團協商並推起謝昭吉委員一鳳與院會討論時作補充說明主席宣告通過這條文相關法制擁有授權主席及議事人員整理、散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":2025.472,"end":2052.298,"text":"好 我們待會再來處理議事錄繼續進行討論事項 請宣讀討論事項 審查行政行政審議個人資料保護法部分條件修正查案二 本院委員王美惠等18人拟據個人資料保護法部分條件修正查案三 本院委員羅定偉等17人拟據個人資料保護法部分條件修正查案四 本院委員李坤成等16人拟據個人資料保護法部分條件修正查案 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2057.026,"end":2076.956,"text":"本日議程所討論事項個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案共計有四個版本那我們先來介紹我們今天列席的機關首長那首先由我們個人資料保護委員會的籌備處主任李仕德李主任好"},{"start":2080.888,"end":2101.964,"text":"那還有我們司法院民事廳我們的法官張宇家張法官謝謝那數位發展部法制處副處長吳怡倫國家通訊傳播委員會法律事務處處長蔡志儒謝謝"},{"start":2106.004,"end":2135.368,"text":"那國家通訊傳播委員會平台事業管理處副處長黃天陽謝謝經濟部法制司副司長黃婉玉衛生福利部資訊處副處長王美珠謝謝國家安全局秘書室副主任李沒有寫名字李副主任"},{"start":2140.713,"end":2164.543,"text":"內政部資訊服務司有列席的相關官員那還有我們交通部科技及資訊司副司長王東琦法務部法治司副司長兼參事謝志明"},{"start":2166.937,"end":2178.029,"text":"好 那以上的機關就有 皆有率相關的人員來列席那我就沒有再一一介紹那我們現在現場與會的委員有我們邱義營邱委員"},{"start":2184.036,"end":2197.133,"text":"那本案有四個版本我們現在先請提案的委員來說明提案要旨那第一個是請王美惠委員那王美惠委員是王美惠委員不在請羅廷偉委員"},{"start":2198.454,"end":2213.825,"text":"羅廷維委員羅廷維委員不在請李坤城委員李坤城委員李坤城委員不在好那我們現在請個人資料保護委員會籌備處李仕德主任就行政院版本及委員提案進行報告"},{"start":2224.868,"end":2250.366,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生媒體早我們今天奉邀列席貴委員會就審查行政院函請審議個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案還有委員王美惠等人還有委員羅廷瑋等人及委員李坤成等人共事案的個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案代表本籌備處報告並被質詢深感榮幸"},{"start":2254.429,"end":2271.136,"text":"本籌備處緊究個人資料保護法研修的政策及會診 答應各委員會所擬版本質修法重點 檢要報告如下 請請指教1.個人資料保護法之研修政策的說明 按各執法的適用對象廣泛"},{"start":2271.756,"end":2288.939,"text":"涵蓋全國公務機關及非公務機關其中公務機關含全國各機關構及公立學校數已經有8000多餘個那目前言而上的話是由他們依各執法來進行自我的管理非公務機關部分"},{"start":2289.84,"end":2313.254,"text":"就非常廣泛若僅以營利事業登記為例目前的統計數據已經達165萬餘個目前皆由各目的事業主管機關中央跟地方來分別管理當然還有包含其他各類的非營利事業團體還有廣大可能會利用個人資料收集資料來進行相關業務執行的這些業者"},{"start":2318.057,"end":2334.786,"text":"那鉴于各自法修法的政策影响层面非常广大本筹备处为任务型机关以建置个人制药保护委员会相关的监管机构为最优先的任务所以各自法应分阶段来进行修正规划"},{"start":2335.586,"end":2355.203,"text":"本階段的修正主要是配合各自會的成立賦予各自會相關的執法權限那包含對公務機關與非公務機關之行政監督以及公務機關之上級或監督機關非公務機關之中央或地方目的世界主管之協力合作的機制等配套規定"},{"start":2356.087,"end":2376.824,"text":"那至於下一階段還有很多各自法要修正的這個實質的議題本籌配處會持續的進行研議規劃會交由給正式成立的各自會以各自法主法及官制地位跟續的進行通盤修正研議及立法政策的決定那本次"},{"start":2377.725,"end":2395.357,"text":"行政院通過審議的各自法部分條文修正常有三個重點以下簡單敘述依我們賦予給各自會必要的監管權限那除增訂第三章之一行政監督外那其他例如有關於"},{"start":2397.045,"end":2412.92,"text":"碰到有各自外界事故目前我們的修正草案是規定都要應通報主管機關在一定範圍之內那其餘也有包含授權各自會去訂定各類公務機關非公務機關之基礎版的安全維護辦法"},{"start":2414.482,"end":2429.753,"text":"那也還包含到由各自會來召開個人資料保護推進會議的這個權限第二點強化公務機關之各自保護監管那目前這邊公務機關的部分"},{"start":2430.293,"end":2446.389,"text":"他是全面就納入由各執會來進行監管那為了要配合一個很重要的這些內部監管的事務的推動我們優先先在公務機關裡面推動個人治療保護長的這個制度"},{"start":2447.774,"end":2472.23,"text":"來負責推動及督導考核機關內部所屬的個資保護事務那此外還有很多包含個資保護管理事項的實施提出在我們相關的條文裡面也有去規範給公務機關必須要去執行的相關個資保護的一個新的制度所以我們來優先在公務機關先設計這樣的一個制度"},{"start":2476.172,"end":2502.788,"text":"那至於非公務機關是不是也要有個人資料保護長我們目前這個版本的草案雖然暫時還沒有先放入但我們剛才已經提到說二階段的修法在下一階段因為這個影響會更大所有非公務機關的個人資料保護長的制度的一個研議跟推動我們會再多廣征各界的共識之後再來推行這樣的一個修法研議那畢竟"},{"start":2505.25,"end":2521.74,"text":"組織的一個變革它是需要有一個組織文化的一個配合那這樣子整個推動起來才會產生它原本預期的這樣一個效益好那三優先納管無人監理的這個業務分階段集中事權"},{"start":2523.713,"end":2538.114,"text":"剛剛再提到另外一面非公務機關的這部分我們目前原則上先採用一個分階段再把這些個人資料監管的這個權限一一再回收再沒有先公告這個"},{"start":2541.322,"end":2560.369,"text":"這個變動說前期規管之前我們會先鎖定幾個重要的這些已經目前進階段分別監管的情況之下已經有實際在做監管的重點工作內容的這些行業先暫時還是維持有現有的分管機關來主管"},{"start":2561.969,"end":2582.249,"text":"那由行政院公告一定範圍的公務機關我們在6年的過渡期間之內會逐步的檢討再回收到由個人資料保護委員會來做統一監管那其餘若沒有列在這個公告範圍的話就各種的非公務機關原則上就是由個人資料保護委員會來進行監管"},{"start":2584.349,"end":2597.11,"text":"那相關六年過渡時間裡面各個目的世界主管機關跟個人資料保護會彼此之間的配套執法的機制在我們這次修正查案也有列入"},{"start":2598.663,"end":2622.664,"text":"那以上是整個修正查案我們先大概摘出三個重點那二就是有關於大便委員組領據的修正案那在這部分目前也都是先根據行政院審議通過的版本來做修正跟調整那我們節省時間我就把它再分類成三個部分 檢要跟委員"},{"start":2623.524,"end":2639.272,"text":"來做說明一就是有關於各自外洩的事故發生之後通知當事人部分在這邊相關的提案有委員王美惠等人所提出來的領據案裡面有提到說因於窒息後24小時內通知當事人"},{"start":2639.952,"end":2665.64,"text":"那本籌配數的意見是先考量到各自事故的樣態不同各個事故機關能夠有效掌握的資訊也不同所以事故發生時優先防範事故的擴大在這邊可能會比較是主要緊急需要先去處理的情況所以我們對於說在進行相關通知當事人的這個部分"},{"start":2666.34,"end":2681.107,"text":"原則上我們現在先把它留在執法裡面再來做一個彈性的一個規定說他的通知的一個目前性就在那個期限安排那先不硬性的在母法先放一個劃一的這個時間點那"},{"start":2683.448,"end":2703.105,"text":"以這樣子的一個考量,我們覺得說榮獲在未來在研定執法的時候,我們再看不同的事態跟樣態,再來處理通知當事人的這樣一個時間跟時效但是目前我們的修法方向呢,就是先原則上我們把現行法說要經查明之後再通知當事人"},{"start":2703.565,"end":2717.675,"text":"的這個門檻我們會先把它拿掉以避免以前一直都有一個爭議說那要查到多久那至少我們先以這樣的一個方式來先做規劃那二對於公務機關的監管部分"},{"start":2718.174,"end":2743.209,"text":"那相關提案有委員李昆成等人還有網美會委員等人所凝聚的這個修正草案分別都有提到說對於公務機關的這個監管那主管機關每年每兩年就要辦理一次的這樣的一個集合的這樣的規劃然後這些相關集合結果定期公開那另外也有提到"},{"start":2744.898,"end":2770.044,"text":"對於各支會有關於公務機關未依各支法的這個各支會的這個命令去限期改正的話要因公佈其名稱跟違法情節那這部分投配處的意見是認為現階段因為對於各支的監管能量有限是不是要硬性的先去訂一個很平凡的說幾年就是一定要進行一個這樣的一個"},{"start":2772.566,"end":2776.735,"text":"我們的這樣的一個集合的一個程序我們榮獲是希望說這部分"},{"start":2777.819,"end":2804.829,"text":"先不要把它定職因為這裡面公務機關有中央地方的這樣的一個差異性又很大那輪候在我們在訂相關的執法裡面再用彈性的方法來做處理那若是集合的一個結果我們是用一個統計數據去做一個公布的情況之下我們這部分當然是建議就用現用的統計法的相關規定來做公布即可"},{"start":2805.729,"end":2829.614,"text":"那至於說另外要去對於說公務機關的違法情節是應公佈其名稱跟違法情節那這部分投杯處的意見是這一個所謂的公佈名稱跟違法情節它是一個行政處分它不是一個資訊公開那這個行政處分本來就是要看它的一個情況來做決定所以我們"},{"start":2830.314,"end":2845.997,"text":"也認為說這方面能不能先用我們目前現在行政院版本的一個處理模式是把它定位成是一個行政組份的一個裁量那這部分當然就要看個案再來做決定那三"},{"start":2847.318,"end":2869.465,"text":"委員的提案裡面有一塊是在處理非公務機關監管事權集中的過渡期間的安排這裡面有委員王美惠等人還有委員羅廷瑋等人分別有去提到說是不是過渡期間縮短成4年然後每一年檢討回報或者是過渡期間把它縮短成5年"},{"start":2870.385,"end":2886.593,"text":"那籌備署對於這一點我們的意見是有關於這些過渡時間這6年安排我們也參考了國外個人資料保護的獨立監察機關他們在進行整個規劃過程那這裡面日本是一個我們主要參考的一個對象"},{"start":2887.794,"end":2914.168,"text":"那日本從原本也是跟我們一樣是分別監管的情況之下而且他還要納管公務機關所以他們當時候採取從所有這些分身到最後公務機關跟非公務機關統一納管也大概花了6年的時間逐步去做這樣的安排那所以我們考量到說各自會的監管能量今天需要持續的累積那若是把"},{"start":2916.731,"end":2927.607,"text":"這個檢列分管的時間又檢的非常的緊密每年要去做檢討是時間縮得很短總時就縮得很短那對於未來再檢說非公務機關因為還要跟現有"},{"start":2930.944,"end":2936.87,"text":"還維持分管協作下的這些中央目的之間進行調試還有行業本身也要去做這樣的一個調試的時間確實會比較趕所以我們建議目前現在的一個檢討檢列頻率還是定為兩年"},{"start":2946.561,"end":2972.535,"text":"那總長就是不會超過6年那因為畢竟這是我們國家第一次有一個個人資料保護獨立監督的一個機關的這個機制所以我們期盼說能夠先在前期的這個規劃盡量還是凝聚共識把這個整個籌設的工作等到個人資料保護會籌設出來這一部分的安排"},{"start":2973.115,"end":3000.22,"text":"我們就還是希望說依照現有的一個規劃來處理那最後還是感謝各委員對於國人隱私還有個人資料保護的一個重視我們本次各自法修正涉及到說從分散式的管理走向獨立機關的一個體制的一個重大的變革希望未來擔任各自法主管機關的獨立機關各自會能夠及早成立那在大院本屆會期"},{"start":3001.48,"end":3026.936,"text":"再來接續推動各司法全盤的現代化的修正工程那也懇請各委員黨團支持目前行政院的草案相關規劃 以上好 謝謝我們籌備處理事的主任那我們另外有經濟部司法院數位發展部國家通訊傳播委員會衛生福利部及交通部的書面報告我們請委員自行參閱並刊登公報"},{"start":3031.176,"end":3057.811,"text":"來 那現在先來確定議事錄請問各位議員議事錄有錯誤或疑漏沒有好 那我們議事錄確定本日議程討論事項合併詢答委員詢答前原例做以下宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員4分鐘必要使得延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記請登記第一位林戴華委員發言"},{"start":3062.13,"end":3069.622,"text":"先請籌備處主任那這個國安局速發部衛福部先準備"},{"start":3070.282,"end":3091.883,"text":"好本期針對個資法當中特別是國人基因的部分來做討論我國精準醫療的檢驗檢體資訊外流看不見的國安風險因為個資外洩而正在發生個資被利用產業被犧牲健康被腐蝕"},{"start":3092.643,"end":3106.587,"text":"好本席針對幾個案例第一個新疆種族的滅絕的警示第二個中國自基因地區設備服務的風險第三我們中央各相關單位應作為而未作為的實際的狀態以及產業政策在行政單位缺少聯動最後本席有個具體建議"},{"start":3114.449,"end":3135.9,"text":"在具體建議當中剛才所點的幾個單位就要上來做回應第一個新疆種族滅絕的警示從2014年中共中央發起嚴厲的打擊暴力恐怖活動他建立起了新疆在教育營2017年營地規模化並迅速擴大隨之建立起達到高潮2019年聯合國人權理事會發生集體的討論"},{"start":3140.003,"end":3159.959,"text":"2020年美国国会调查报告他说了中国政府于新疆地区针对少数民族以药物及疫苗进行新疆民族种族灭绝举绝育这样的药物跟医疗的疫苗是针对新疆民族的基因"},{"start":3161.414,"end":3171.788,"text":"特種他的這個民族的基因所做的藥物跟醫療來做種族的滅絕而我國國人的基因是融合了什麼原住民太平洋南島"},{"start":3172.486,"end":3198.108,"text":"闽南客家国共内战撤退后来到台湾以及新住民已经形成具有高度特色化的基因也就是说我说汉民族到底汉民族他到底汉民族就很广东北亚也是汉民族我觉得与其说汉民族比如说我们黄种人我们黄种人在中国东北亚东南亚"},{"start":3199.29,"end":3212.745,"text":"甚至上到歐美各國移民出去的所謂的黃種人其實在國人台灣國人的這樣的一個基因在我們這個國家都已經有高度特色化的基因族群"},{"start":3213.806,"end":3237.539,"text":"好那中國呢實施這個種族滅絕國際專家報告也講了習近平就是設計者這是2021年的報導那這個也講到這樣的新疆維吾爾族的人權是種族滅絕而且他是以這個基因來進行這個絕育跟病癮的相關的藥物跟疫苗來做的種族滅絕"},{"start":3238.439,"end":3259.689,"text":"好我們看在前幾年2023年也不過是前年現在2025年前年2023年的3月7號英國國會英國國會當中多位議員聯同世界維吾爾代表大會敦促英國政府對中國基因公司巨頭華大集團"},{"start":3261.19,"end":3277.106,"text":"這個我會特別講就是等一下各單位你要去回應的啟動了國安評估中國在這個報導我左邊這一份報告是英國議員們他們提出來的這幾個重點我畫出來中國已將基因組學列為國家安全"},{"start":3278.728,"end":3298.507,"text":"关注的领域并将遗传数据和基因组作为优先产业目标作为Made in China 2025的计划之一在国家支持下华大基因等公司已成为基因主学领域的全球参与者习近平他说了称赞中国的生物资源"},{"start":3298.587,"end":3317.586,"text":"技術成就是最重要的武器這都有英文在上面再來第三個重點基因組織和基因技術的應用對國家安全經濟競爭力及數據隱私具有重大影響應被視為英國重要的國家基礎設施所以我們在指他們呼籲"},{"start":3318.206,"end":3328.294,"text":"英國國會的議員呼應他們的政府在這個採購法案通過國會的時候努力的將中國政府有關基因設備例如BGI這樣的一個品牌從政府的採購供應鏈中移除這等一下經濟部要回應的"},{"start":3335.699,"end":3357.407,"text":"經濟部因作為而沒作為我們還敦促了政府對於就是他們講英國政府對BGI進行全國的國家安全評估所以等下國安局要回應以確定他們從英國金融機構適應部門合約和英國各大學的研究合作是否過程國家安全挑戰英國國會已經就做這樣的一個"},{"start":3359.268,"end":3364.229,"text":"國安層級的呼籲來看中國製的基因定序設備跟服務風險來這個是中國人體基因檢測法令這是中國的法令他講到什麼基因定序儀器依靠內建工業級的電腦提供運算並具備通訊傳輸的主模資料上傳軟體下載"},{"start":3384.033,"end":3405.131,"text":"所有設備均是中國製造與生產也就是中國對他中國自己的檢測一律用中國製的好相關檢測的結果呢還要上傳專屬的雲端雲端機房我們現在嚴重性的是台灣現在等一下我會提出數據現在台灣一半以上都是中國製的檢測"},{"start":3406.972,"end":3434.765,"text":"基因檢測也好或者相關的檢測也好一半以上好他們現在是雲端就在中國台灣就是備份這是現況中國人體基因的檢測法在這個法當中他還強制喔右邊這個法令我查出來第7條我們有他的第34條講到什麼程度他們中國官方啊可以含中央地方政府可以查閱複製查封扣押有關人類的基因"},{"start":3435.265,"end":3454.087,"text":"也就是我們現在一半以上中國製的這樣的基因檢測或相關檢測機器充斥在台灣我們現在國人所有的基因數據全部也透過這樣的機制都在中國機房在中國備份在台灣好再來"},{"start":3457.828,"end":3486.248,"text":"這個呢是一個私人的食藥署這個衛福部核准的私人的實驗室這樣的資料我都有提供給衛福部好這個資料當中中間這個這個MGI這是華大設備這個資料詳細的部分我可以再提供但在衛福部這邊我早就提供了我說這個是你們核定的私人的實驗室用的是次世代定序的這樣的一個技術項目是中國製的我也給他了好"},{"start":3487.549,"end":3493.511,"text":"那你知道我們呢他怎麼做呢我們缺乏聯動什麼樣的聯動法那這個他這個衛福部在精準醫療必須的次世代分子的檢測上漏洞百出就本席情資的掌握中國這個分子檢驗設備是以非常低的金額他怎麼跟我們所有的實驗室公司力實驗公司力的醫院公司力的大學講說你都不用錢我們這裡設備都提供給你"},{"start":3516.278,"end":3532.683,"text":"免費提供給業者使用並提供醫療院所的服務業者在賺取健保支出的情況之下這個做基因檢測是政府有支持這個健保點數的將國人的基因資料資訊大量的洩漏給中國特定的團體"},{"start":3533.803,"end":3558.455,"text":"我國從2017年起推動的 尤其我本身來自高雄南部智慧生醫產業聚落推動計畫 本期大力支持以及你們接續要推動的南部精準健康產業聚落推動計畫本能更是樂見其成 重點在我高雄路主希望導入的就是ICT 這個資通訊的技術發展精準健康產業好 這樣的政策"},{"start":3559.335,"end":3564.598,"text":"我們國發會主導的5加2 國發會跟你們有關係 這個是你們現在籌備處5加2的產業發展計畫就有包含生醫產業及精準醫療當中的癌醫治療機會使用到基因檢測設備 其對國人基因各自保護確實是產生了以下的問題 什麼問題呢 第一個"},{"start":3582.487,"end":3591.976,"text":"相關跨部會在產業政策上並未做聯動 什麼意思 我告訴了衛福部 衛福部說他就附了一個公文公文就給了經濟部 告訴經濟部說你禁止進口喔經濟部有沒有作為 完全沒作為"},{"start":3597.481,"end":3615.089,"text":"好那如果說要下去測長了衛福部又說話了啊這個雲端的技術我們不太懂這個是屬於速發不管的所以相關跨部會光是在產業政策上並會做聯動協作所以很明顯的行政單位默示附踢皮球我現在講的是基因檢測這件事情"},{"start":3617.05,"end":3625.493,"text":"第二個扼殺國內生醫生技產業的發展我國人體基因缺乏完整的收集每一個實驗室可能幾千筆可能多著了不起幾萬筆所以我們沒有一個這個整個基因檢測如果它是一個國安議題"},{"start":3633.996,"end":3637.719,"text":"我們台灣國人的基因要不要整體的數據的完整的收集在哪一個單位他是屬於公開還不公開那誰要來做完整 那要做什麼用因為有了數據規模我就可以導入預防醫學"},{"start":3649.947,"end":3662.976,"text":"也可以導入在後續的精準治療比如說哪些基因的人他特別會有糖尿病的症狀哪些基因人特別有腎臟病的症狀哪些基因的人都要可能會有失智症的症狀這都要長期基因規模才有可能對台灣2300萬人民以及未來的新生兒等等我們可以啟動早期預防"},{"start":3672.503,"end":3694.922,"text":"甚至後續的癌症基因的分子檢測我們更能夠導入精準治療所以這是二殺國內生技第三個健保精準醫療的醫療準確性就本席了解雖然我國已經要進入到精準醫療中國自分子檢驗設備相較於國際先進的設備不管是美國 日本 德國"},{"start":3696.144,"end":3711.105,"text":"他的準確度是較低的這是業界給我的訊息那你們可以去查更恍若我健保的資源是漸漸挹注解放軍基石的企業現在從事半數以上"},{"start":3712.006,"end":3714.348,"text":"檢測機器都在我們國內還用我們的健保資源去檢測本席這邊沒有苛責任何的單位我希望能夠喚起我們本國在國安單位跟相關部會的重視而且是要積極的處理經外洩國安形成危機民間的實驗室"},{"start":3732,"end":3753.617,"text":"大學實驗室大量使用中國的設備承接國內公私立大公私立大小醫療機構我講到公私立大小醫療機構什麼意思因為我們都是委外連公立的醫療也是委外給民間或公立的醫療的實驗室而且這不僅重大疾病甚至產檢"},{"start":3755.198,"end":3770.668,"text":"我們的罕見疾病都要做到檢測啊他有些是基因檢測有些是一般的檢測取得國人巨量基因的資訊將協助中國可能對我國形成生物戰的威脅形成嚴重的國安漏洞好國安局請上來衛福部抒發部請上來經濟部請上來"},{"start":3774.21,"end":3785.48,"text":"基於國家安全及 啊 主席對不起 特別有請國安局衛福部 速發部 還有經濟部 謝謝主席好 來 林委員剛所點到的部會 請到備舉行台"},{"start":3788.598,"end":3803.979,"text":"那對於籌備處目前你們只做法令的解釋但是未來如果你成為獨立機關的時候在相關我看你們這邊來的有法制事務組 查核規劃組 綜合企劃組我不曉得未來的執行單位你要怎麼處理"},{"start":3804.72,"end":3831.256,"text":"但是至少現在還是可以做一些事情國安局在今天本席要求在國個資法中將國人基因視為特種個資我現在講的都是個資法現有的規定建起參照英國國會及各先進國家在保護他們國人基因的作為上評估提升為國安層級的議題並採取對應的作為這是第一個本席的要求第二個衛福部主責接同速發部三個月內"},{"start":3832.196,"end":3852.181,"text":"完成查查依特管法特管法的管轄範圍業務你的特管法就已經包括私立的我確認三公私立醫院公私立大學實驗室公私立實驗室的業者在病歷及檢測資料事後外流至境外雲端儲存及資料安全狀況並依法辦理特管法就已經有規定了如果是"},{"start":3858.523,"end":3879.26,"text":"這個有外流到境外的部分你是可以停業的停止使用還甚至可以停業這特管法就規定了好 第三個經濟部一 衛福部的公函衛福部已經給你們公函了一個月內完成限制中國自次世代地序儀含四季及周邊設備進口作業的相關的法規的完備好 請回應來 國安局"},{"start":3889.289,"end":3893.874,"text":"因為本局是主管國家安全情報協會工作那對於有關於"},{"start":3895.945,"end":3922.592,"text":"涉及到對於本國家的有相關的國安威脅的相關情緒我們都會有所展望並且提供給相關的機關做參考以上報告所以針對這個議題國人的這個特種個資的部分你們要不要帶回去研議我只請你們研議喔我還沒說你們那個我已經很客氣了這樣子剛才的爬梳您這樣子要不要帶回去研議一下正式的提案在你們的局本部來做討論"},{"start":3924.827,"end":3940.961,"text":"有關於委員的建議我們會進行相關的我會帶回去給因為是國安所以我也不要求你在這邊做相關什麼的回應我不會像衛福部或是外部這麼的明確我相信我還是尊重國安內部的機制你應該啟動的一個國家層級是否要這樣所以在這邊請你帶回去"},{"start":3946.605,"end":3965.637,"text":"好衛福部主責接同速發布這就是特管法規定的了三個月內完成這些公私立醫院公私立公大學實驗室公私立實驗室業者在病例檢測資料事後外流至境外雲端儲存及資料安全的狀態可以處理嗎衛福部接同速發布來衛福部"},{"start":3967.902,"end":3983.75,"text":"衛生部你們來的醫事師 這應該像醫事師來做你們因為有資訊處 雖然關節比較大但是主責上應該是醫事師檢任記證社會保險師林科長 是科長來嘛醫事師回應一下啦"},{"start":3986.604,"end":4013.366,"text":"那針對於人體資料庫我們是這些相關的傳輸我們是有這個人體這個生物資料庫的這個管理條例那我們相關的輸出都會依條例他要報我們申請核准才可以去做輸出這個剪輯這個我從去年開始我就關心了我不是現在才關心只是你們毫無動作我現在是依客管法請你們三個月完成你現在公立的醫院有處理"},{"start":4015.007,"end":4035.826,"text":"公立的實驗室有沒有處理我不曉得所以我說公私立本身你特管法就包括私立的醫療院所也有包括私立的大學的實驗室私立的實驗室本身特管法就要求了是你不作為喔所以我三個月內要求你查處而且我說你接同訴發布你就沒有意見了可以嗎"},{"start":4038.899,"end":4058.306,"text":"好 謝委員我們會盡快去處理好 謝謝 好 經濟部一個月內完成 限制中國製 你總是對現有的狀況他們去做查你對新的你不能再進啊你的相關的這個限制的中國製製的這個次世代地區你的進口作業相關的法規一個月完成 可以嗎"},{"start":4059.533,"end":4083.22,"text":"關於委員的要求我們會帶回去給貿易署做相關的評估我隨便完備我可以接受你不用到公告但是你的完備的所有的文字要做公告前的文字一個月內完成可以嗎我們會帶回去好謝謝以上好謝謝戴華委員我們下一位請邱益穎委員質詢"},{"start":4095.946,"end":4108.473,"text":"謝謝主席 這個我請一下李主任好 請主任 李主任委員長"},{"start":4109.825,"end":4133.305,"text":"主任早主任我想我們今天在討論這個個資法那我們曾經在2023年的5月的時候當時是本席在當召委我們就通過了這個要增加這個個資保護委員會的這樣的一個單位那所以您今天是以這個籌備處主任的身份來我還是想要再更深"},{"start":4134.306,"end":4156.514,"text":"部的請教到底這個個資保護委員會你們是只是形式上有這樣的一個組織呢還是能夠實體上去做一些進行我們大概舉了幾個兩個例子啦這個也讓您看一下這個是2023年1月在華航有一些會員資料外洩的狀態"},{"start":4157.754,"end":4184.627,"text":"那會員資料外洩呢華航證實這個他並沒有證實這個是從他的資料庫來但是我們可以看得出來其實像這些大型公司會員資料外洩很顯然他們在對於個資保護加密的這個整體的防治工作並沒有做得特別好那又也沒有罰則也沒有通報採取的任何的機關所以這件事情可能也就這樣子不了了之"},{"start":4185.487,"end":4206.509,"text":"第二個是有很多的學校的校務系統透過這樣的一個業者資訊的業者被駭客入侵所以有大量的學生的個資外洩那這個個資外洩的程度基本上因為在法令也不完備之下而且學校的校務系統缺乏資安的集合"},{"start":4207.392,"end":4223.572,"text":"所以也是不了了之那您剛剛的幾個報告裡面我其實想要進一步的請教就是說在我們修正草案第12條裡頭有說符合一定通報範圍請問什麼叫做一定通報範圍它的範圍涵蓋有多廣"},{"start":4226.255,"end":4248.297,"text":"第二所謂的這一些資訊長我們現在要求各部會各單位都必須要設立資訊長那這些資訊長的設立現在有哪一些公務機關已經設立了這些資訊長依照現行的法令規定他是兼任那如果資訊長的這個職務是兼任的話"},{"start":4249.653,"end":4262.126,"text":"他到底對於資安對於個資的保護能夠執行到什麼樣的一個程度來主任我請就這幾個問題先回答好謝謝委員指教就是先回答剛剛"},{"start":4263.956,"end":4282.423,"text":"委員所提到說這個未來獨立這個機關它是一個形式的還是實質的那我們現在當然是朝向它是實質的那它的監管的一個權限在於我們目前現在所剛剛舉的這兩個例子然後扣除掉剛剛我們已經有報告說"},{"start":4283.703,"end":4300.154,"text":"我們會設計一個六年的一個回收的那個權限回收機制那理論上假設我說以後全部都回收的情況下這些實質的監管是當然是沒問題那在還在分管的時候我們還是會跟現有的中央目的實驗室去做一個協作"},{"start":4300.814,"end":4317.23,"text":"那委員剛才請教我們說有關於第12條這邊所謂的一定通報的那個範圍那本質上通報的義務是未來這個新法的要求是一定都要有所有的這些所有東西都要通報而且是直接通報到我們這邊來"},{"start":4318.291,"end":4340.417,"text":"不分大小一律都是要通報到你們這裡那你們的工作量呢可以涵蓋這麼多的範圍嗎不論大小因為你把調寫的是一定的範圍嘛一定通報範圍但是你現在講不論大小都要報到你們這裡來就是在我們所歸之的那個範疇跟範圍當然這個在執法的時候還在做一次討論說所以你們的執法還在作業當中執法還沒有徵定完成"},{"start":4344.758,"end":4371.016,"text":"母法事先規定說在這個一定範圍的話當然就是適用對象全部都要通報到個人資料保護委員會是好我在想啊這個因為你們有6年的所謂的這個過渡期當然你還是要必須要很多的資訊收集是公務單位的這個資訊長的設立這件事情您剛還沒有回答我這些資訊長的設立包括他的定義跟人員的編列每一個公家機關裡頭會"},{"start":4373.558,"end":4385.437,"text":"設立一個資訊長他底下會有多少人員的編制這個也會是在你們的執法訂定的範圍之內嗎是沒有錯那現在各機關裡頭在你的執法還沒有明訂出來你的執法什麼時候可以訂出來"},{"start":4386.712,"end":4405.706,"text":"因為這個法假如通過的話後面會有一個行政院指定實行日期所以會有一個準備期你可以預估一下大概多久嗎我覺得假設以一般還要包含組織去籌測應該至少還有一個半年的時間吧還要再多半年的時間嗎那這半年內的這個空窗期各自如何保護"},{"start":4407.488,"end":4421.868,"text":"你在整個這個範疇之內會不會有人說那我就等資訊長這個所謂的個資保護長出來以後我們再來處理等那個單位設立以後我們再來處理很多東西會不會有一個空窗的部分"},{"start":4422.751,"end":4437.728,"text":"是會不會跟委員報告不會有空窗因為現行的規定是像剛剛說公務機關你就用現行的法條現行的規定去做是是是可以無縫接軌是沒有錯您可以保證可以是無縫接軌現在對於非公務機關這邊已經有成立一個協調聯繫會議去加強監管現有的非公務機關我想"},{"start":4443.755,"end":4472.43,"text":"公務跟非公務機關其實這個機關團體非常的多未來的整個個資保護委員會看起來業務應該也會相當的繁雜所以在執法的訂定上如果時程上可以加快的話我期待其實也應該要加快另外要跟您再請教一個比較專業的現在大家一直在講AI AI我們講的個資保護其實在生成式AI"},{"start":4473.75,"end":4493.244,"text":"風行之後很多的跨境資料的這個風險其實變成會變成是各自保護委員會或者是各自監管很重要的一個步驟現在我們我們一直在懷疑包括很多的這一些APP很多的社群媒體social media他們裡頭"},{"start":4495.874,"end":4516.708,"text":"存取我們的這些資料我們要我們要當到很多的APP啦或者是要使用都必須要輸入一些個人的資料但是這個資料有訊息來源是說他是回傳跨境回傳到某一些地方因為他的伺服器他的server是在境外的某些地方"},{"start":4517.148,"end":4539.933,"text":"那這個變成我們管不到那未來在這樣的一個個資監管我想深層式的AI這AI時代下的個資監管變成是很重要的一環了我不曉得在個資保護委員會或者是在籌備處你們針對這個部分有沒有什麼比較具體的想法跟具體未來可能可以在法令上推動的"},{"start":4541.667,"end":4564.796,"text":"的這一些方針、政策,有沒有?這個就會涉及到我們剛剛在說第二階段要全面修正的各執法的內容裡面就會包含這一點那你這個還要再等第二階段我覺得這個整個AI的這個跨境資料的傳輸其實它已經是到一個高風險的階段啦你的二階段不知道還要再等多久搞不好這一屆還不一定能夠完成"},{"start":4566.016,"end":4591.25,"text":"這一屆已經會讓他完成你確定這一屆能夠讓他完成但你可不可以透露一下在這個生成式AI盛行的時代這一些跨境的個資傳輸或者是說有沒有可能透過我們政府跟這一些社群媒體的溝通讓這一些個資能夠留在台灣接受台灣的這個個資的保護有沒有這樣的"},{"start":4595.595,"end":4619.742,"text":"有沒有這樣的想法跟這樣的作為因為這個問題當然現行我們分管的時候其實也是會面臨到那有關於這類所謂的社群平台裡面或許有些選擇會在中央目的事業主管機關的角色之下來做那剛剛我當然是說未來要另外處理一個議題就是這個管轄權要如何把它擴大 包含說要指定你落地"},{"start":4620.882,"end":4634.912,"text":"確實現在是沒有規定落地我只是說這種比較明確的機制在下一階段當然最好像炸方條例所以這個會變成你們下一階段一個很重要的議題對 就是指定你業者落地然後這樣子才有一個對話機制"},{"start":4636.013,"end":4661.428,"text":"但是現行其實假如說中央目的世界主管機關在他自己所能夠掌握的這些是 所謂的跨平台業者裡面他當然我們還是期許說現有的這樣的一個議題中央目的世界大家要注意因為時間已經到了我不耽誤大家時間但我還是要建議一下這個部分其實應該要列為你們下一個階段很重要的各自保護的重點這個是要特別提醒的地方感謝 感謝委員"},{"start":4665.984,"end":4691.783,"text":"好 謝謝邱益穎委員那我們下一位請陳廷飛委員發言謝謝主席我們先請這個書發部法治處還有我們的數位產業署還有知通安全署"},{"start":4692.793,"end":4720.455,"text":"好 請速發部法治處數位安全署跟直通安全署我們今天剛好在談法我想請教我們三位副處長還有副組長我想請教一下現在馬上不論是在這個所謂的國際情勢或是國內情勢"},{"start":4722.216,"end":4745.551,"text":"基本上馬上在很多的狀態會慢慢浮現尤其又選舉要到了我想請教一下對於目前如果有假帳號假帳號假帳號反串攻擊然後用所謂的一條龍的方式再去做散播請問我們現在有法可管嗎有嗎"},{"start":4751.018,"end":4778.417,"text":"我們如果依照數位部有嗎報告委員如果依照委員剛剛所說在打詐的部分的話我們目前打詐條例還是針對詐欺妨害的狀況不是打詐不是打詐不是打詐就是說一般現在如果在所有的狀況他是用假帳號反串攻擊我們現在有法可管嗎"},{"start":4779.813,"end":4808.027,"text":"目前我們還是透過跟業者的合作的部分來處理這方面的事情那假帳號反串等已經跟業者合作然後呢業者再傳給所有相關調查完之後回來這所有的一條龍的局勢就已經不知道跑到哪裡去了所以表示我們現在假帳號反串攻擊然後再做散播這是無法可管的"},{"start":4809.116,"end":4837.75,"text":"是不是我們目前還是要依照個案的狀況來判斷就是這樣的行為有沒有符合其他法令上的那如果2018那時候非常嚴重的內容農場再現當時候就是莫名其妙這個所有的中共的網軍全部做內容農場的生產然後一條龍一條鞭整個往外擴"},{"start":4839.932,"end":4849.413,"text":"當時候的狀況是如此所以那時候還沒有書發布那現在有了之後還是無法可管嗎"},{"start":4851.585,"end":4877.753,"text":"還是無法可管嗎跟委員報告這個部分在當時行政院的督導之下其實各部會都有成立各部會一起成立了一個就是針對訊息的一個市詐跟房詐跟賭詐一個相關的一個綱領那還是會依照這個部分然後大家再去做一個精進的措施怎麼精進的措施現在所有的手法是越來越厲害他用假帳號反串"},{"start":4878.854,"end":4903.34,"text":"然後深入到每一個粉絲專頁裡面比之前2018的內容農場更厲害囉結果如果我剛問書發布我們這幾位可能比較有相關的表示現在也是一樣沒有任何的方式是不是有嗎有嗎 現在有嗎"},{"start":4910.008,"end":4927.478,"text":"我們目前這個部分針對訊息的部分我們還是從訊息的本身內容來判斷是不是事先是假之後我們才會去做相關的訊息是不是有假訊息這個部分還是仍然在個案我們會先去做判斷"},{"start":4928.218,"end":4954.792,"text":"你要怎麼判斷是不是假訊息你要怎麼判斷有窗口嗎我們其實是依照行政院當時訂的綱領那各部會根據他各自的領域去針對這個訊息判斷是否為假那你怎麼判斷是否為假可能要看具體的內容的部分涉及哪一個部會的權責那我們書發布就是會跟其他的平台業者採取合作的管道可是當時候2018的內容農場"},{"start":4957.433,"end":4982.764,"text":"都是針對個人都是針對政府的政策然後去污蔑 去扭曲那你怎麼判斷這個何以為真這個部分其實我們仍然還是跟各部會就是在行政院杜老師做一個合作措施所以你還是一樣2018到現在 別人一直在精進"},{"start":4984.434,"end":5012.871,"text":"科技網路一直在經濟假訊息一直在經濟但是呢我們政府沒有經濟你們所回答的跟2018有什麼不同2018的內容農場那時候的嚴重程度應該你們還記憶猶新吧是不是可是現在是越來越變本加厲可是"},{"start":5013.888,"end":5030.978,"text":"你們束手無策啊還是以當時候的綱領啊然後辨別是否為真啊等你辨別出來你知道嗎現在的LINE現在的粉絲專頁都已經傳過好幾波連好幾波了2018當時候LINE還沒有這麼樣的發展的這麼樣的快速2018還沒有現在LINE"},{"start":5042.026,"end":5067.066,"text":"無遠弗屆在第一時間傳出去你怎麼收回來沒辦法收了可是人民已經很直接看到這些訊息錯誤訊息的傳遞抒發部如果還是這樣的一個態度那我們請問成立抒發部有什麼用有什麼用"},{"start":5069.003,"end":5087.617,"text":"報委員這個部分如果在技術部分我們有經濟我們也會跟資安院有共通的合作措施那這個部分可能就是我們會持續根據外面就是外在環境然後做持續上技術的精進那另外在實質內容的判斷仍然還是要回到各部會的一個權責部處長今天在整個過程到現在"},{"start":5092.699,"end":5121.333,"text":"整個科技的一個展現跟它不一樣的一個轉變速度是比我們政府還快我們頭腦還沒到那裡人家早就已經作為一條龍一條鞭然後從假帳號反串攻擊甚至給假訊息等你要去辨別早在賴的群組當中已經不知傳多少波出去了你要擋要怎麼擋"},{"start":5122.847,"end":5139.439,"text":"然後從我們的臉書、粉絲帳號也是一樣不知道你要多久啦我今天正式要求在這部分的一個假帳號的反傳跟廣傳"},{"start":5143.535,"end":5159.447,"text":"錯誤訊息的傳遞你們何時要給我們一個比較確切的處理方式窗口在哪裡否則你說要查我們連窗口都不知道在哪裡我們要怎麼查怎麼給資料沒辦法給資料啊副處長多久多久要給我們一個資料一個月"},{"start":5170.194,"end":5193.175,"text":"報告委員 這部分可能涉及跨部份可不可以給我們比較長一點的時間兩個月 三個月 沒關係你要多長有總比沒有好啦謝謝委員 這個部分可不可以給我們大概三個月的時間好 三個月我們研議一下這樣好 三個月再跟委員報告好 三個月麻煩 這太重要了"},{"start":5194.657,"end":5214.027,"text":"三個月 2018內容農場我們發現已經在 正在猖狂當中結果你們還是這樣的態度好 三個月 請你把假帳號的反串 假訊息的傳遞這個部分我們要怎麼遏止 要怎麼去做單一窗口的管理"},{"start":5214.927,"end":5226.405,"text":"你說各部會各部會散播在各部會無法可管單一窗口要怎麼處理三個月來我們請那個呃理事的主任來請李主任"},{"start":5236.994,"end":5261.07,"text":"委員長 主任我想在整個個人資料保護委員會的籌備處跟我們個人資料保護委員會這當中到底我們在打炸綱領當中要扮演什麼角色到底如果依照你講的說你們也希望你們是可以有關鍵性積極性的可是"},{"start":5262.111,"end":5278.238,"text":"我們看所有的資料你們現在只有在一個個資法的法律解釋跟提供各單位的個資事件的諮詢就只有這個樣子這是很被動非常被動極度被動我們個資法它是一個防詐的源頭"},{"start":5285.575,"end":5300.766,"text":"如果你們這麼被動我們怎麼強化保護去避免我們各自的外洩然後你要怎麼去監督各部會去作為我們各自的管理跟防範外洩很重要的一個關鍵你要怎麼變成這個角色"},{"start":5301.787,"end":5326.236,"text":"是 跟委員報告就是目前我們規劃的版本裡面本身我們這邊會形成一個很重要的個資保護政策的一個推進會議的這個架構那原則上就是由我們來做主導那相關中央地方的這個機關會納入在我們這個平台我們以這樣一個平台在為了規劃好啊 納入這個平台之後"},{"start":5327.216,"end":5348.859,"text":"那你只是給他們諮詢還是說你有強化性可以要求各單位去作為防詐的源頭去保護我們各自不要外洩然後去要求我們可以監督各個機關可以去在打詐的部分去做一個保護人民的一個堅決立場"},{"start":5350.32,"end":5372.023,"text":"對跟委員報告未來這一個政策推進的一個會議他不是一個諮詢他會以我們為主因為在修法裡面第一條之二的第一項就已經強烈的規定了一個很重要原則所有的中央地方各級機關都有義務要來協助整個個人資料保護的一個信賴環境的一個建置"},{"start":5372.903,"end":5381.013,"text":"話大家都會講是是是原則大家都會定是執行呢是我們未來在這裡面你認為你有辦法嗎各部會"},{"start":5384.11,"end":5403.303,"text":"你有辦法去要求各部會去做到你們的到位打詐的一個關鍵嗎畢竟未來它是一個獨立機關本身在各自法裡面所賦予給職權以及中央地方各級機關要配合的義務還是會嶄明在法律裡面"},{"start":5404.201,"end":5424.835,"text":"所以這一點上面我們以這樣的一個未來的政策推進的一個會議他不會淪落只是一個被動的諮詢的角色主任我要問的就是這一點今天我們在法過了之後我們到底可以給予你們什麼樣的武器你沒有武器"},{"start":5428.632,"end":5456.984,"text":"你要怎麼動誰要聽你的如果各部位都不聽你的你要怎麼去保護所有的人民個資現在是尚未每一樣東西只要跟個資牽扯到它是非常嚴重的事情更何況現在在打詐的一個關鍵時間為什麼一直在催促你知道這個保護法我們已經催促多久了"},{"start":5458.939,"end":5483.17,"text":"好不容易今天看到開始審了所以我們期望這個各自保護法給你們之後你們是有武器的是而不是只是一個被諮詢的單位不會不會不會喔你保證喔你要保證喔你們還要訂一個執法就是有關政策推進會議他的執法你們還要去規範如何來運作剛剛所說的這樣一個機制"},{"start":5483.49,"end":5505.189,"text":"今天我們這樣的質詢就是希望你要給自己非常重要的一個壓力在這個執法當中你要定到什麼樣的程度才能給你有任何保護人民各自的立場這才是重要我們把委員這個意思會在定這個執法的時候也一定會把再麻煩是拜託謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":5510.472,"end":5530,"text":"好謝謝陳廷飛委員那下一位請鄭正前委員發言謝謝主席我想請一下各自保護委員會籌備處的李士德主任來請李主任"},{"start":5536.5,"end":5558.68,"text":"莊委長早莊委長早我在想說因為憲法法庭在111年憲判當中的時候有特別一道台灣健保資料庫其實的運用有部分違憲的事情而且要求三年內要改善那我想說我想這次我們行政院這次提出了一個院版的個資法修法應該跟這有很密切的關係應該是這樣子吧"},{"start":5562.248,"end":5576.31,"text":"你可以用跟委員報告就是當時候一年的宪判十三次他有主文二跟主文三四那三跟四目前現在就是由衛福部正在炒你一個很重要的衛福專訪那"},{"start":5577.432,"end":5594.485,"text":"二的這一塊它當然是獨立進行啦但是等到個人治療保護人員會未來成立之後這個健保的一個未來這個衛生福利專法它的運作過程因為畢竟它也是一個公務機關它在應照對法規的個人治療保護人員還是要去監督它對於這一個專法的"},{"start":5596.667,"end":5616.308,"text":"所以我在想說我們這次修法當中的時候因為當時當時憲判當中提到兩個第一個是我們要成立一個獨立的監督機制因為不夠所以要有一個獨立監督機制另外就是我們對於各自個人退出權的這個部分對不對所以我在想說所以各自會目前的時候"},{"start":5617.169,"end":5629.036,"text":"正在積極籌備當中那我知道說組織法也送到執法法治委員會我們有沒有預計大概什麼時候這個各自會能夠順利成立"},{"start":5630.1,"end":5656.674,"text":"這邊有沒有具體抓一個時間點我們當然是也期盼在這個會期能夠審議通過但是因為審議通過之後未來還有一段的時間通過之後的這個法還要再去執行所以你希望這個會期這個法通過之後就可以開始成立嘛就開始去規劃那因為行政院會再去指定修正過後的個資法的實行時間我們現在這個時間把它說越短越好"},{"start":5656.994,"end":5682.043,"text":"OK 理解那我在想說因為在那個憲判當中的時候也特別提到了就是退出權的問題那健保署這邊很清楚的提到說相關的一個健保署的退出權大概八月份可以實施嘛對不對可以實施具體時間點是這樣的是不是是不是要衛福部要先做說明因為這是他們專法裡面規劃的OK"},{"start":5686.698,"end":5687.224,"text":"透過麥克風講好不好"},{"start":5698.536,"end":5720.499,"text":"報導委員 依照我們憲法判決第4項的說法就是不管我們專法有沒有通過然後退出權民眾都可以向健保署去申請那這一塊的部分我們健保署已經有在做相關的規劃那未來不管我的健保資料管理條例能不能在這個會期通過 健保署都會對外宣布"},{"start":5721.219,"end":5750.179,"text":"有關健保是要申請退出的機制我簡單講你剛剛提到說不管專訪有沒有過其實民眾都可以去要求退出權我想特別請教一下李主任您繼續在這位副部這邊因為其實跟我們有相關的個資的部分包括國健署的癌症登記包括我們社會安全網的個資包括我們醫護集法統計法精神衛生法等等很多的部分這個部分的時候我們民眾是不是一樣有退出權的一個"},{"start":5751.019,"end":5765.376,"text":"可以使用李主任嘿跟委員報告目前111年13號的判決裡面他的退出權的這個其實現在是先苛責說衛福專法就是健保資料庫"},{"start":5766.036,"end":5787.371,"text":"因為剛剛衛福部這邊有提到說不管專法有沒有過他們現在民眾都可以去要求退出權那按照這樣子的一個原則當中的時候只要像其他的部會牽涉到各自的部分我們民眾是不是也能夠這樣去行使各退出權好 因為宣判的那個退出權現在是先鎖定是一個資料庫所以沒有說叫各自法要去訂一個"},{"start":5787.711,"end":5806.143,"text":"那這個部分我們希望說那個就是各自會這邊的時候我其實針對這部分趕快去因為你剛剛在回答其他委員我有聽到一個點就是說你希望按照兩階段修法其實這兩階段修法其實坦白說我有特別注意到其實原本我們召委他原本排的那個"},{"start":5807.794,"end":5827.132,"text":"議程的時候本來是院版加上11個委員的版本結果現在後來只剩下院版加3個委員的版本那顯然的時候我想應該是你這邊特別去拜託把一些相關的跟這一次行政院院版沒有關係的法案都先不排列是這樣子的一個情況嗎"},{"start":5828.548,"end":5850.53,"text":"跟委員報告 當然排案是召委的權利啦但是以目前現在的一個規劃的方式 反而我們就是兩階段那還有其他委員的一些提案 我們當然是希望說我們目前第二階段的 我們還在持續在籌備所在所研議那也沒有說要等到說個人資料保安會成立之後 他才開始去接手"},{"start":5851.03,"end":5866.735,"text":"我們希望他趕快成立然後下一階段這邊來接手能夠無縫接口因為我針對這個北方樹原本這是一個委員當中的版本當中我看到了就是家福中心他最近有一個民調出來的時候就是台灣就是"},{"start":5869.4,"end":5886.796,"text":"接觸網路的年紀越來越小然後比例越來越高然後各自曝光的風險其實也越來越高針對這樣的情況的時候所以我發現數位足跡很重要通信紀錄很重要可是"},{"start":5887.657,"end":5902.771,"text":"在其他有很多的委員本來都提到了相關的部分可是在這一次修法當中都沒有提我在想可能就是你剛剛提到說想要二階段修法的時候所以這個部分可能都沒有排到今天的一個修法版本當中"},{"start":5903.471,"end":5923.68,"text":"對 因為跟委員報告我們是期盼因為其實未來真正要對話是長射機關獨立機關 而不是籌備處我知道各個委員都期盼最後各支法還是要做很多大的修正所以我們現在的目標是當然趕快先把這個機關籌設必要配套各支法這個第一階段先通過"},{"start":5924.44,"end":5953.849,"text":"然後二階段的這個修法內容所以你的意思是說你的責任就是就把這個這個委員會籌設起來之後修法的部分就是以後人家的事情是這個意思嗎我們現在籌備處在還沒有也同時在做嘛對不對所以我認為其實很多委員的版本當中都有提到了一個數位組織跟通訊記錄這相關的問題我覺得是非常重要的包括徐真委員也特別提到沒有錯徐真委員也提到黃靖遠他們都提到這部分所以我們也希望"},{"start":5954.289,"end":5977.907,"text":"就是現在能夠做的就馬上去做不要等到推到第二階段才不會這樣子嘛第二階段的工作我們現在已經在開始進行那我另外要特別提到因為經濟部不斷的在推AI這部分那確實也非常的蓬勃那AI這邊可能會牽涉到的一些個資的一些問題"},{"start":5980.185,"end":6007.485,"text":"我們這邊要怎麼處理打算要在什麼時候的時候能夠把這個部分把它處理好好 當然這邊有一個重要的所謂的人工智慧基本法也同時正在進行人工智慧基本法裡面很重要就是個資保護是現在在規劃的一個方向有關於涉及到人工智慧的個資保護是要由未來的這個個人資料保護委員會"},{"start":6009.066,"end":6026.892,"text":"那您剛有提到我剛聽到你在回答另外一個委員提到說這個部分如果牽涉到公司他如果沒有在台灣落地的時候我們要怎麼處理因為你剛有特別提到公司有沒有落地在台灣很關鍵對於我們各自的保障能不能真正的保障到那我們這個部分我們要怎麼去做"},{"start":6027.692,"end":6047.448,"text":"對 當然就是下一階段在處理我們剛才說管轄權的部分要把它明確出來那指定落地現在已經有一個不錯的經驗在那個炸打的這個條例裡面它是採用指定你落地的方法那我們覺得這是一個很好的一個立法的法治經驗我們在剛剛所說的二階段這部分我們會把它參酌進來是"},{"start":6048.769,"end":6074.342,"text":"OK那我在想說二階段這邊希望該保障各自的部分我們趕快做能夠做就做不要把很多的事情都推到了二階段之後我覺得這樣其實是不適合的我們繼續希望就是說我們繼續做做到說他成立之後把我們這個任務型機關他會裁撤相關的業務會移撥到那邊在這之前我們能做的還是要繼續進行"},{"start":6075.858,"end":6093.115,"text":"最後我要特別提到因為這次院滿當中的時候它對於非公務機關的對個資保障如果沒有落實的時候會罰則而且範圍擴大可是對於公務機關的部分一樣沒有任何的罰則那這個部分我們要怎麼處理"},{"start":6094.534,"end":6109.801,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們現在的規定當還是內部的這個懲戒懲處這個機制我們還是有辦法補進來那公務機關的一個處方也參照我們最近在看外國的立法尤其是英國他們就是經驗之下他們發覺"},{"start":6111.542,"end":6129.631,"text":"不是說處罰公務機關直接就可以產生很多的一個廣泛的效應因為公務機關就這樣你處罰他他還是會去進行徵送所以變成耗費很多時間在進行徵送所以英國最近他們也在考量說這個處罰公務機關這件事情到底他的實際性有到多高"},{"start":6130.571,"end":6147.116,"text":"這部分還是得要去處理因為當我們這次修法的時候針對非公務機關的處罰是提高的狀態大幅提高狀態然後我們對於之前2300萬筆護證資料外洩的事情到現在感覺也都沒有任何的一個懲處"},{"start":6148.576,"end":6170.708,"text":"那感覺好像就是公務機關如果說洩漏個資的時候好像也都無所謂那我覺得這樣其實是有問題的那我們也希望主任在這個部分的時候當我們要成立個資會的時候這個機制我們現在已經把它放進來在上次你也知道委員有就教我們所以我們就把委員的這個希望說對於人員的懲戒懲處要放進來所以我們這次修法有把它先放進來"},{"start":6171.488,"end":6192.533,"text":"OK好那這個部分的時候我們也希望能夠好好去落實然後對於我們個資的部分不只是只要求非公務機關我們公務機關也能夠給就是台灣的個資做最好的一個保障好不好謝謝委員支持好謝謝好謝謝鄭正前委員那下一位請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":6206.462,"end":6222.496,"text":"好主席各位有請主任來請李主任好主任好今天在場的都是公務員公務員這個"},{"start":6226.995,"end":6255.83,"text":"個人資料保護法這個次上法務部以前是法務部嘛法務部84年8月就公布施行這麼長時間確實也需要去做修正也修正過112年上一次修正是112年5月31號做了這樣的一個修正修正當然就條文不多很重要的就是"},{"start":6256.877,"end":6283.342,"text":"有一些條文像這個48條修正之後就公佈日施行那這個第一條之一很重要的第一條之一當初修正主要的目的應該就是第一條之一但是施行日期由行政院定制也就是這個個人資料保護法第一條之一"},{"start":6284.775,"end":6306.899,"text":"第一項本法之主管機關為個人資料保護委員會也就是要把這個法本來是法務部主管的要移到成立一個新的機關因為當初就是考量到非常非常多個資的問題那我一直很納悶102"},{"start":6312.872,"end":6329.416,"text":"112年5月31號公布施行然後由行政院認定施行日期對於這個第一條之一為什麼會這麼久了112年113、114兩年了兩年多了請問一下為什麼"},{"start":6336.849,"end":6354.798,"text":"對跟委員報告中間因為還有一個這邊條文看不到就是這裡面一個很重要一個大的變革是我們國家要成立一個新的獨立機關這以前從來沒有過然後是瞬間直接是又獨立又專管那個變化真的是很大"},{"start":6356.799,"end":6380.017,"text":"是因為憲法判決的關係憲法判決是一個回應本來行政院已經自己在110年就有一個規劃人權行動方案裡面就已經在思考說是不是要去成立比憲法判決更早就是要去成立一個我們自己國家的個人資料保護隱私的一個獨立專責機關所以後來這裡面因為實事求是還是要有一個籌備處"},{"start":6382.779,"end":6411.578,"text":"所以行政院在112年的12月5號先成立一個籌備處是要把這個組織先籌設出來所以這中間還有一個在條文裡面看不到的就是要籌設一個機關所成立的這個籌備處就是我們現在正在做的工作我知道這個因為這個籌備處畢竟人力有限是錢則有限它主要不是要執法它是要把機關伸出所以真的是有限對對所以"},{"start":6412.418,"end":6432.053,"text":"你自己去查從過去到現在籌備處你從什麼時候開始成立的籌備處112年的12月5號對嘛恐怕是最久的籌備處也不會啦以往都沒有那麼久啦有些籌備處十幾年也有但是我們這個有時間性的重點是在於這個"},{"start":6437.47,"end":6446.038,"text":"這個個資法嚴重才會去修正嘛就大家都有這個方式而事實上台灣成為一個詐騙國家詐騙非常的"},{"start":6453.007,"end":6480.216,"text":"去年五百多億去年被詐騙的五百多億其中很大的因素就是個資啦其中很大的因素就是個資我們的人民常常就接到電話就被騙了對不對個資就是個資嘛對不對所以這個部分連博士教授都被騙了"},{"start":6481.277,"end":6507.711,"text":"對不對就是個資嘛所以這個部分是很嚴重的所以我才會說怎麼會112年修法要成立個資保護委員會到現在不成立所以當然你很難去回應啦因為你這個不是行政院院長不是行政院秘書長我們問你也是很難這個我們腳步都一直在加快沒有停歇"},{"start":6509.071,"end":6533.241,"text":"這個我是認為成立了之後才能夠有人力事實上如果我們這個從公務體系來看為了跟這個個資有關的其實國家通信傳播委員會然後也成立了速發部速發部像這樣的"},{"start":6535.888,"end":6562.738,"text":"我們一個機關一個機關其實都成立了很多啦但是我們的個資所影響的除了個資所影響的之外所謂的詐騙的一個金額逐年的逐年的提高去年就五百多萬五百多億所以這個部分是一個當然不是全部是個資的問題但是個資是一個"},{"start":6563.373,"end":6590.02,"text":"很重要的因素常常很多電話就接到電話所以這個部分是一個需要去加強的部分所以從今天的報告裡面也提到相關的這些需要去積極加強的部分然後未來這個相關的重大的面向也都提到了所以我建議你回去跟"},{"start":6591.542,"end":6614.854,"text":"行政院院長說趕快到這個委員會那個那個組織法要去協調是沒問題司法法治委會趕快安排好不好好共同努力好謝謝委員執教好謝謝鄭天才委員那我們下一位請張祺凱委員發言那張祺凱委員發言後我們休息5分鐘"},{"start":6635.845,"end":6647.53,"text":"來 請跟時間賽跑的主任 來你是德里主任嗎請李主任謝謝委員在加冕主任 你這個"},{"start":6649.369,"end":6676.935,"text":"雖然籌備那麼久啦 不過你這個委員會非常非常重要是 沒錯對國家社會有很大貢獻因為第一個 台灣第一次有這個那麼重要的人權關懷的這樣一個因為現在我們說個資洩漏是很嚴重的連國防部 個資都可以洩漏內政部啦 什麼一堆衛福部全部都有 華航你看連賴清德賴總統的個資也都外漏過郭台銘啊什麼林志玲啊所以今天那個 我們今天巡打就很重要啦"},{"start":6677.675,"end":6701.651,"text":"我是看你們在3月份提出來這個3月27號的行政院這個版本做了一部分的修正我發現有些地方我們要進一步來討論好 謝謝委員執教你在12月 去年12月20號有做一個預告吧我發現你後來3.27提出來的時候把它刪掉了保存相關的紀錄 本來說預告說要保存三年"},{"start":6702.608,"end":6720.194,"text":"對不對?對,沒有刪掉,我們是會在執法裡面再去訂,相關保存的期間。執法啊?對。那就訂在這麼重要,為什麼衛界要拉低呢?因為不是,在預告期間裡面,各界的意見都不同,有人要拉長,有人說要拉短。"},{"start":6720.894,"end":6741.977,"text":"那我們會覺得說這部分可能還需要濃縮共識所以我們是先在模仿裡面先去提到在授權指板說期限這個一定會一定會保存是需要的還是要認為要拉長要多久要縮短還要討論你要盡快把它開完會把它定下來現在它的重點是應該有一個法律位階的"},{"start":6743.338,"end":6760.966,"text":"重視 執法基本上就是它是具體授權 所以它是相當有法律的效力一個這樣好不好 我們說兩個處理一個就是要加速去 你說有不一樣意見嘛要趕快去審核啦 不能丟在那裡第二個再想一想 是不是位階還是要拉回來放在"},{"start":6761.997,"end":6788.121,"text":"法律比較好 你再想一下啦當然我沒有完全反對執法可是老實講 這個是很重要的一件事情了解 沒錯 沒錯 那個重要就用法律來定啊就不要到執法去 這疊雷那第二個我發現你把它刪掉一個比較這個通用 那個你看一下中間那個 預告板裡面有提到說有前項情形且對當事人權利有重大危害之餘者"},{"start":6789.383,"end":6793.81,"text":"重大危害之餘的 這個很重要啊你為什麼後來也刪掉了 又放到"},{"start":6796.335,"end":6817.81,"text":"跟委員報告就是在預告時間當然也有給一個意見尤其是人權團裡面是認為說是不是只限於一個說這個門檻好像是說還要去判斷重大危害才能去做這個通知跟通告他覺得這樣子好像已經把那個範圍縮得太小了但是那個門檻要怎麼樣去處理"},{"start":6820.552,"end":6847.16,"text":"所以我們是覺得說 假設大家覺得這個共識度加這個門檻是不是加太高了所以我們就暫時好原則上這個門檻的問題先到執法裡面先來先不要現在在母法的時候就因為大家的所以要趕快嘛對對對沒有錯跟剛剛的問題一樣所以不能一直拖這是一次第二個這個解決方案更重要了因為你這樣就會造成一個你都用執法來定那那個通報範圍就會變得很空洞外界就會關心不知道怎麼辦"},{"start":6847.74,"end":6860.251,"text":"不會空洞那時候就是一個具體要去討論說到目前為止我為什麼問你說你把重大危害這個拿掉或拿到執法那邊去像這個本來就很明確對不對是那你今天能不能比較明確跟我講你這個範圍會涵蓋哪一些好"},{"start":6863.214,"end":6878.93,"text":"我們目前的規劃當事人的通知的這部分原則上我們現在先不放門檻了對當事人通知甚至我們把那個本來現行的規定說要查明後那一直都有人說要查多久啊這個當然要刪掉現前條文這個太晚了這個不符合跟實際賽跑沒錯沒錯要刪掉我們就是這個修法是對的啦我現在是說"},{"start":6885.899,"end":6914.531,"text":"沒有一個是當然要及時嘛對不對是是是可是更重要現在人民還在看你這個範圍啦你今天我剛剛講的那個就是個範圍嘛對不對沒錯沒錯對不對重大危害嘛那你把它拿掉那我現在就要問你你現在初步你訂的有哪些範圍是比較明確的好假如說我們現在分兩個啦一個是通知主管機關一個是通知當事人那那是通知我說範圍你要界定的所謂通範圍是怎麼樣現在範圍我們是只有我們現在範圍是只有先放在"},{"start":6916.001,"end":6934.245,"text":"通報主管機關的這部分哪些事情要通報嘛 對不對所以都要有重大危害這一點嘛 我也說你把它放到執法去除了這個之外還有哪些是你本來要定的事項然後第二個才是你講的要通報到機關或者是非公務機關怎麼通報嘛OK 我請我們同仁先做補充說明"},{"start":6934.929,"end":6951.428,"text":"是委員因為我們當時在修法的時候其實有參考這個日韓的立法例那日韓他們其實在他們的個資法母法其實對於這個通報的範圍他們也是授權另外去訂他們的命令用命令的方式來去明確化他那個通報的範圍"},{"start":6952.629,"end":6976.143,"text":"可能就是例如像他可能是說譬如說他的這個資料是涉及到可能1000名以上的當事人的個資或是說他是涉及到敏感的資料或是說他可能是因為駭客違法犯法所去竊取的這種資料的這種情況他才會說在列為他們這個命令裡面所要通報的範圍這是日韓對就是像這樣的範圍"},{"start":6977.163,"end":7000.528,"text":"人家國外可以跟國外的事可以做一部分的參考嘛沒錯影響有多大對不對或者民不民感嘛對不對金額什麼那些可以所以到時候這個範圍會非常的明確就對了沒錯那包括剛剛講的被刪掉可能要放回去好不好OK我們會例如那你剛剛講到一個時間點問題然後我給你談一個跟時間很有關的你最近有注意嗎最近那個LINE啊帳號被盜用那個"},{"start":7002.594,"end":7020.002,"text":"最近增加了80%所以連賴都在官方上面他都趕快公告了然後社會發展部也去找他趕快去跟時間賽跑結果現在花蓮啊你說賴配到用了真正能夠去要回來主任你知道要多久嗎你知道嗎 要再久嗎你要了解一下一方面這個跟你的業務有關一方面這牽扯到每個人的利益嘛對不對"},{"start":7030.697,"end":7051.059,"text":"那麼多人那個賬號被以前一週只能去要100筆回來了那些社會發展部趕快去催催催催催到現在啊說可能可以到250可是要到7月份才到400我告訴你結果啊被盜用的人太多了如果用400去省你知道嗎要多久你知道嗎多久才能夠回來"},{"start":7053.537,"end":7077.69,"text":"兩個半月會太久嗎有點久啦不是有點久 非常非常 太久了嘛對不對這不行啊這個你去跟他們談一下好不好是 因為這部分現行院是分管是數位部在主政我們也會再跟他們做協力的一個聯繫要快要快 我記得大概三天都太久了啦大家知道嗎我們也去做一個統計給大家看一下那個統計表"},{"start":7079.5,"end":7085.786,"text":"你如果你的貸啊被或者是那個帳號被倒走之後啊一個小時內27%錢就轉走了一個小時內喔然後幾個小時大概12個小時之內到"},{"start":7093.463,"end":7112.6,"text":"幾天內大概都是大概一兩天內一半以上全部都被轉走了結果你現在搞我剛講三天已經太久了結果你現在搞到兩個半月好不好這個把它列為重點的工作即時趕快去處理好不好盡量能夠看能不能在三天內完整把這個LINE要回來這個好另外有一個最近啊"},{"start":7113.905,"end":7122.933,"text":"我們要求Google跟YT跟LINE還有臉書他們要設法律代表這個已經設了然後開始我們把這個廣告這個實名制了可是就發現了詐騙"},{"start":7125.868,"end":7147.899,"text":"越打越炸不是沒有減少還增加了這個也是現在民眾現在最關心的那這部分你跟蘇阿波那邊也進一步再檢討 好不好好 阿卓恩這是一個重要的工作好 一起加油 德家希望你有做出很好的成績這個籌備數真的老講是籌備的有點久了趕快正式成立好 我們持續一直講謝謝委員執將"},{"start":7152.639,"end":7156.643,"text":"好謝謝張七開委員那我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":7179.693,"end":7179.934,"text":"这里塔"},{"start":7478.833,"end":7482.395,"text":"好那我們繼續開會那下一位請賴瑞榮委員質詢"},{"start":7489.758,"end":7494.891,"text":"好 謝謝召委 請李主任跟秀發部的吳副處長請李主任"},{"start":7501.893,"end":7523.725,"text":"這個法案內容我支持沒有特別意見但我想要關心一下反倒是TikTok的一些用戶的個資的問題這個部分全世界世界各國大家也高度在重視那我先問一下主任中共能不能取得TikTok的個資就你的了解因為畢竟是他們國家的非公務機關"},{"start":7525.236,"end":7547.072,"text":"理論上我覺得應該他們對於他要求提出資料在他們的國家法制是應該是可以達到的可以達到啦他也很難拒絕啦因為在專制共產的國家他很難拒絕光馬雲都無法抵抗的TikTok應該很難抵抗他們有一個數據安全法是國家可以要求他們所以他們的數據安全法是直接可以要求的"},{"start":7548.471,"end":7566.352,"text":"所以這個部分Ttalk是可以直接取得相關這些個資的那這樣的狀況下大家就會高度的擔憂了那我們的很多的包括世界各國包括台灣自己也會關心我們的個資會不會因為在Ttalk這邊而被中共所取得主任擔不擔心這樣的狀況的發生"},{"start":7568.243,"end":7597.062,"text":"是當然這個也是應該一樣會被各自保護議題要被關注的那我們在未來的部分我們會有沒有辦法來強化這一塊的一個安全的維護的工作在資訊安全各自的安全的部分會 剛剛在前面委員在追尋這樣的一個說其他境外的這些業者當然一個就是管轄權的部分現階段因為畢竟現行的各自法以及整個發展過程裡面就是一個內國法"},{"start":7598.483,"end":7614.133,"text":"那像這種完全不落地的這樣的管轄權要來形成我剛剛也有說明說在第二階段的各自法的大修裡面會處理這個議題就是對這種他完全不落地的所以主任會要求這個將來必須要落地嗎"},{"start":7614.833,"end":7630.802,"text":"我覺得現在因為炸房已經有這樣子的一個你如果不落地的話你詐騙的一堆或什麼的你對他幾乎完全是沒有約束力嘛是是是美國都還可以要求聽證位要求他來談台灣你要TikTok我不知道處長如果現在要TikTok是要誰來"},{"start":7632.383,"end":7661.312,"text":"現在因為現場只要按照是分管機制所以就要再請這類的我問您就您的了解如果是要邀請TikTok的人認為他有相關的疑慮要來台灣做說明政府來做說明邀請誰來他來不來可能以這部分當然可能等一下先請問一下以處長主委你的了解有沒有現在有沒有被邀還是如果要邀的話可以邀誰來他願不願意來是"},{"start":7663.331,"end":7678.512,"text":"有嗎是希望他進來落地投資還是說進來說明再說明就好了假如我們有一個任何一個聽證或任何一個公聽會的時候要他來說明的時候這部分我看是不是等一下請那個書發部書發部要不要說明一下有嗎有這樣的人可以說明嗎"},{"start":7681.523,"end":7705.219,"text":"我們補充報告目前在打炸條例的部分我們是針對國際版的T-talk的部分它現在我們還在審查中但他們在台灣有聯絡人因此在打炸的事務上台灣的聯絡人是誰 什麼樣的層級他們有一個台灣的連聯絡人是誰都還不是那麼清楚現在委員報告他就是會有一位就是在台灣這邊負責去做"},{"start":7706.448,"end":7711.534,"text":"那個是就是業務接洽的部分所以是做業務接洽所以他的職稱是這個就是最大的問題那我問你啦他不來的話我們有辦法約束他嗎"},{"start":7720.778,"end":7748.837,"text":"市報委員現在他其實我們在審核他的資格當中就針對國際版TikTok有沒有要設法律代表部分這個我們現在也在這個就是我提到的問題我請包括主任包括那個書發部都是要思考的如果我們連人美國至少聽證會的他的執行長還要來做個說明任何的都做說明如果來到了台灣賺台灣人的錢賺台灣的所有利益的時候然後你連請他來請誰來都還請不清楚"},{"start":7750.658,"end":7768.164,"text":"他一個代表可能某某先生而已他能不能代表Ttalk也沒有人知道能不能對他有任何約束行為也沒有甚至於如果我們認為他有相關的要約束他的話也沒有那這樣的狀況下你怎麼Ttalk等於是形同如入無人之境形同沒有管轄一樣"},{"start":7769.741,"end":7795.077,"text":"那我沒有認為剛剛主任講到了TikTok所有的東西資訊是為中共政府是可以掌握得到的那到底對台灣的權益保障在哪裡所以我認為這個部分請資訊包括我們的訴發部要加快這個相關的動作如果這樣的話形同他可以賺台灣人的利益進入台灣的市場就完全不用負擔任何責任的義務的這是沒有辦法接受的"},{"start":7795.877,"end":7819.291,"text":"這沒有辦法接受的所以我希望這一塊部分要盡快來做處理我們也盡快提出來相關部分法制要盡快把它驅離下來我們沒有辦法接受這樣的狀況一再發生我們看一下其他國家印度它為了防止這樣的狀況它是全面禁止的對TikTok是全面禁止TikTok現在已經產生很多的效應很多人喜歡看TikTok裡面有產生很多的"},{"start":7819.631,"end":7838.858,"text":"它只要詐騙的也會出現甚至虐待動物的也會出現甚至奇怪的很多東西都會出現在這個地方而TikTok只要它有商業的利益它就會進行那我們對這一塊甚至有很多設計它可以用大數據去取得你台灣人民的喜好你喜歡什麼東西你喜歡什麼樣的都可以取得大數據"},{"start":7839.838,"end":7856.868,"text":"那甚至於他可以穿透他的政策的宣導出去給你那我們對這個是完全沒有防禦機制所以其他的 像印度已經全面封禁了 其他國家政府禁止而憲政現在也是嚴厲 其他國家也要禁止台灣作為中共的第一線面對中共的這個"},{"start":7858.589,"end":7887.276,"text":"這個作戰的第一線不管是網路作戰、認知作戰第一線我們若連基本的防衛能力都沒有連保護能力都沒有我們其實很難對台灣人民交代也很難對世界民主同盟來交代人家怎麼看你台灣在第一線大家都已經關注到這個問題了你在第一線被攻擊得最厲害你竟然完全毫無防衛的機制我希望相關單位要加快這個速度啦那再來我們來看一下TikTok傳送到中國去了有單位能查嗎?沒有嘛對不對現在的機制裡面是沒有的嘛"},{"start":7888.376,"end":7897.139,"text":"主任有嗎?有機制可以查嗎?他資料如果把我們的個資洩漏到中國去,我們有資料可查嗎?主任,要不要說明一下?有嗎?"},{"start":7898.732,"end":7928.092,"text":"目前這部分還是循同剛剛所說的那樣一個狀態假如說在我們納管的這樣一個說標的在做確定的這個過程可以去進行納管主任你剛剛說了嘛這資料是有可能會洩漏到那邊去的嘛但是我們現在有沒有機制可以防堵這事情發生沒有嘛沒有機制嘛那所以連人家歐洲愛爾蘭都已經有那個可以重罰他的我們連個機制都沒有我們連罰他的機制都沒有"},{"start":7929.032,"end":7944.626,"text":"所以我們落後非常的多啦我希望這一塊要加速包括如果他傳送到有沒有違反個資法的規定我認為是有啦但是這個法要修得要更清楚因為中國在對個資的保護是不完善的"},{"start":7945.347,"end":7963.643,"text":"但是我認為這個已經嚴重違反了這一條規定了但我認為可以再訂得更清楚啦所以我希望修法的動作要加快確保消費者保護權益幫我們各自的保護權益這塊動作要加快更不要講好不好更不要講連查處能力我們事實上是沒有查處能力的所以"},{"start":7966.536,"end":7991.594,"text":"另外你看連很多研究都已經提出來T-talk在演算法裡面有親中以美的疑慮所有的T-talk裡面的很多的都會看得出來對中國的好感度是刻意的提升的對中國對台灣經濟的正面影響是刻意提升的對經濟的失敗論是提升的台灣的經濟失敗論是提升的對於政府親美可能引發兩岸戰爭這個是提升的"},{"start":7992.014,"end":8011.237,"text":"所以可以看得出來T-talk其實在執行某些的兩岸之間的政治作戰或政治的任務的這跟前面的推論都是一模一樣所以在這樣的狀況下的時候我們對這樣的行為必須要更多這個防止跟防堵的行為好不好書法部要不要說明一下好不好後面出現了什麼樣的處理的方式"},{"start":8015.379,"end":8026.678,"text":"速發部要不要說明一下對於Ttalk這些部分未來速發部在這一塊Ttalk這些平台上面的有沒有更強而有力的一些監督監管的一些機制"},{"start":8029.257,"end":8053.506,"text":"各位有沒有報告因為這個部分目前如果如果根據以前的部分可能應該比較像是對於平台平台的監理這部分那我們目前只是就打詐的條例裡面的網路廣告我希望加快啦好不好書發部的成立其實要處理的有一部分就在處理現在的數位時代數位平台這個問題這是重要的一個工作啦如果大家這個時間互相還丟來丟去的話那這個業務是丟歸給誰好不好"},{"start":8056.227,"end":8071.964,"text":"現在數發部要加快這樣的一個工作的一個成立然後把相關該建立起來對數數位平台的這一塊的那個包前陣子大家常常講數位平台的做政治審查的部分甚至於很多的一些貼文還會被審查甚至於被"},{"start":8072.984,"end":8101.083,"text":"降流這些等等我認為這個都因為沒有落地了之後你沒有一個機制在的時候你就更難去約束他的行為我希望這塊訴罰部要負起你們責任盡快的完成這相關的一些工作要讓相關這些平台有一定的壓力你不能來只想賺台灣人的錢卻不想要受到任何的約束甚至於傷害到台灣的國家利益這是沒有辦法接受的訴罰部這塊要加油要趕快把它處理起來我們來看一下連包括"},{"start":8102.103,"end":8121.828,"text":"數位平台審查這個詐騙 寫入詐騙繳訊網警政署臉書有三萬八千則詐騙廣告 到現在為止零開罰包括從去年到今年有一萬三千件零開罰書法部現在是零開罰嗎報告委員 我們現在有一些案子在調查中那什麼時候會完成調查"},{"start":8124.845,"end":8142.597,"text":"應該這個月我希望盡快了好不好這個如果連開罰都沒有所有的詐騙這麼多三萬八千則的詐騙包括從去年到今年一萬三千件的詐騙警政署抓都抓不完然後大家房子抓都抓不完然後詐騙的平台如同共犯一樣這個詐騙賺詐騙的錢然後平台賺詐騙人的這個錢"},{"start":8146.799,"end":8175.056,"text":"這樣的行為如果連我們連對這張平台都沒有辦法開罰的話那形同沒有工具嘛 形同沒有嚇阻力嘛那當然難怪平台業者根本懶得理你嘛你政府的公信力跟威權力沒有詐騙已經是人民最深惡痛絕的一件事情了如果書法部還這麼消極我希望盡快的開罰出來讓大家看到已經有三萬多件的這個連檢舉進來都有一千多件一萬多件了應該要趕快有所作為有所動作好不好"},{"start":8176.376,"end":8198.986,"text":"好 謝謝委員指導好 謝謝 加油 蘇鴻加油好謝謝賴隊長委員下一位請邱志維委員質詢謝主席請籌備處理主任跟護證師書視察好 請李主任"},{"start":8204.93,"end":8226.819,"text":"還有蘇市長這個我先請教一下這個護證師蘇市長這個護證事務所上級主管機關是不是民政署是民政署署長是政務官嘛民政署長是政務官也有可能是事務官嘛"},{"start":8228.597,"end":8255.979,"text":"是 以這個基隆來看看這個 他是應該是政務官那戶所主任是公務人員嘛 事務官嘛 對不對是那政務官跟事務官 然後把各自啊洩密做政治用途該當何罪這個是 這很嚴重的事情耶是 公權力去侵犯個人的這個資料是由主管機關洩漏"},{"start":8258.206,"end":8272.798,"text":"那民政處上面的這個戶政事務所中央主管局就戶政事嘛如何防備還是這是單就那個處長個人的行為以及這個兩個戶所主任去配合是相關的細節現在檢調正在進行偵查你想為什麼會會出現這種狀況戶政事務所主任是公務人員對不對"},{"start":8288.049,"end":8317.419,"text":"那後來他做那個那麼嚴重違法事項那當然是上面指示嘛那上面是處長嘛那處長他有沒有這個權力可以指揮這個護生室有時候不一定有也許有更上面對不對公務機關竟然帶頭去侵害個人的這個資料這非常嚴重的事情啊你護生室主管機關在中央啊我只能監督你我不能監督高雄基隆市啊所以這部分啊你們看怎麼去防弊"},{"start":8318.98,"end":8346.796,"text":"是跟委員報告就是我們已經在5月1號的時候有發文通令全國的互證機關就是說他們在執行相關的業務的時候必須依照相關的法規譬如說個人資料保護法就是說他們在查詢戶籍資料的時候是必須是在法定職權裡面才能夠去進行的然後我們這是基本的你還在通令這代表說這個螺絲鬆了"},{"start":8348.869,"end":8377.684,"text":"我當過民政處長四年民政局長一年我對護證事務所當然業務它的服務它的便民各項這個檢證措施一定要做好因為會民服務嘛但對個人的資料保護一定要遵守相關法律規定如果有任何一點我知道我一定嚴辦每次開主管護證主管會報我都三聲五令"},{"start":8378.835,"end":8394.731,"text":"所有的戶籍同仁啊 是為民服務你有任何客訴 或者你有任何資料外洩 或者你有不當使用個人資料會用你的護證系統 去查個人的個資啊如果讓我知道 我另研辦不僅烤雞打餅啊 我移送檢調"},{"start":8403.484,"end":8410.606,"text":"這個可能中央要更嚴厲一點,謝謝蘇市長。請問一下李主任,針對Data Branch整個外洩的部分,有沒有相關的分級管理的機制?"},{"start":8425.937,"end":8451.507,"text":"比如說這個你GDPR或者日本的個資保護法 韓國的PIPA這些他們都有通報的實現而且有分級管理那麼現行的相關的規定 現行的法規如果你們成立之後這個相關的草案內容我看不出有通報實現也看不出有分級管理你們目前的相關怎麼樣"},{"start":8453.24,"end":8465.855,"text":"跟委員報告現在當然是規劃母法剛剛所關切的這幾個問題要再執法那邊有一個授權的執法要再去訂剛剛所說的那個通報實現分體管理母法裡面不會訂"},{"start":8469.161,"end":8492.27,"text":"母法裡面規定母法裡面已經有先處理到說通報的這個範圍所以會有產生一個分級的概念到底是哪些重大的這個情況比如說是你假如說是特種個人資料的或者說比數比較大的這些目前階段的處理有明文規定嗎會在那個執法裡面把它具體明文規定出來是執法還是母法是沒有錯執法嘛對"},{"start":8493.75,"end":8518.26,"text":"你執法也要趕快這個有相關的配方出來通報實現呢通報實現目前也是要在執法裡面去規範所以現在母法通過你執法就馬上要產生嘛對不對是它產生後之後才可以決定你執法有沒有相關的概念你在用歐盟模式還是用韓國新加坡的模式是我們先請同仁先補充"},{"start":8519.8,"end":8544.982,"text":"是 報告委員因為其實像通報實現的部分像我們其實是有參考日本跟韓國的規定那其實他們在通報實現方面因為其實會有一些狀況比如說他可能有一些不可抗力的室友的時候他可能會有一些需要做彈性的處理所以如果一旦在母法裡面把他釘死了其實在實用運作上會比較所以我說你執法要有相關的這個方向嘛是"},{"start":8545.783,"end":8570.493,"text":"那你看是5日內還是72小時還是更久應該是說原則上可能會朝向72小時但是會有一些歐盟模式會有一些例外的情況要去做彈性處理好這個部分你們在執法裡面不管是分級管理或者是這個通報時間都會在執法裡面定定會把它定清楚 對那DPO的部分我們討論DPO你現在在條文裡面"},{"start":8571.311,"end":8593.192,"text":"你規定這個特定的公務機關特定公務機關跟高風險處理者需要設置什麼叫特定公務機關我們目前是所有公務機關都要設所有公務機關包括地方政府對中央跟地方一二三級都要目前的規劃是都要設戶政事務所都要"},{"start":8594.099,"end":8621.333,"text":"要 但是會先以地方來講的話是先應該是以機關的形態先去呈現的所以所有公共機關一二三級你知道最這個比方說民政署下面的負責事務所或者地政事務所只要是機關形態的都要設置這個DPO目前的規劃是這樣所以這個部分是在母法裡面就會規定"},{"start":8623.22,"end":8629.448,"text":"母法已經規定是公務機關都要設所有公務機關都要是好那另外能不能委外"},{"start":8631.906,"end":8652.991,"text":"你要找那麼多DPO人才何其容易目前現在他是用一個任務型去兼任的任務型他就有內部他的這個行政的這個層級或者行政的規範你如果他層級不夠高你上面壓力下來他就不敢辦對不對"},{"start":8654.693,"end":8669.225,"text":"是不是這樣子我們現在的寫法是副首長跟適當的人員那因為這邊執法我們還要這裡面也有一個執法要去訂明正處長都可以公然違法了那你要不要考慮到委外DPO那部分的一個很多國家包括德國包括韓國新加坡都有讓DPO的管道能夠多元化"},{"start":8683.717,"end":8704.631,"text":"韓國在公部門的這部分還是維持是他們內部人員因為這有組織文化又怕說外部去瞭解但是你看新加坡新加坡他是允許聘用外部的顧問新加坡因為只有非公務機關各執法只有非公務機關適用那歐盟模式也是可以委由第三方啊"},{"start":8705.231,"end":8720.816,"text":"是 但是因為他是給各個會員國 他只是說現在規定各個會員國的你應該很清楚說能不能委外 委外的機制是什麼條件是什麼 可能要講清楚不能完全沒有DPA DPA不能委外 不能叫第三方那獨立性的保障呢"},{"start":8721.789,"end":8750.557,"text":"當然他這部分在執行的時候他需要一些外部的資源協助是OK啦但是我們目前你如果全部內部你不要說你副首長擔任他那個獨立性就會受到影響嘛對不對目前現在這個DPO我們不是說朝向說他要變成是一個小的獨立機關的概念最主要是先要有一個這個人在組織裡面要專門去負責有關於個資保護管理的一個文化的推進所以我們先朝兼任的方式先處理"},{"start":8751.477,"end":8767.666,"text":"那下一階段要不要繼續再去把他的強化有這個職位就要發揮功能另外這個你要有專業的要求這個也沒有明定這個在執法裡面也沒有定你若副所長擔任他的副所長也許也是政務官也有可能啊"},{"start":8768.615,"end":8789.129,"text":"對不對 那也不是 工人掉下去也不是這方面專業啊所以你們對這個資格跟他的專業啊你不能說一律就是由副所長來擔任會在執法裡面把這部分要如何去指定相當的人員裡面執法會再定出來 不會說隨意派一個來做這個我質詢不會無邊際的時間到了我就會應該喔 這個"},{"start":8796.051,"end":8823.078,"text":"國會的質詢應該在委員會的質詢應該比照這個院會時間到了就斷麥否則這個無邊際質詢齁這個高鐵我一言再言也要也要邀請委員要上來啦我要必須要來我要遵守邀請委員所以不能無邊際質詢啦我不是跟你說我是跟那個趙偉說啦我剛剛有一瞬間想說那我是不是要斷麥啊"},{"start":8826.84,"end":8853.373,"text":"不過我沒有這樣做謝謝請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席 本席邀請李主任好 請李主任楊委員早"},{"start":8855.647,"end":8871.715,"text":"我國個資外洩的事件層出不窮從健保、勞保、戶政體系、民間金融以及網路的平台民眾對於整個個資幾乎認為是沒有安全可言"},{"start":8872.535,"end":8895.027,"text":"在這樣的情況之下 雖然政府宣誓在今年的8月要設立個人資料保護委員會來回應憲法法庭要求建立獨立監督機制的裁定但是根據目前儲備處所揭示的資料顯示各支會不僅在組織層級方面"},{"start":8896.688,"end":8919.711,"text":"他是偏低因為是三級單位那僅為行政院下面剛剛本席所說的三級機關他的人力編制監管以及法權那麼的一個線的一個權限都遠低於國際的一個標準甚至連基本的獨立性"},{"start":8920.552,"end":8944.539,"text":"大家都高度的質疑是不是能夠有所保障那所以呢更遑論真正的擔任起保護全民各自安全的一個責任所以本席要在這邊請教在這邊請教也就是各自會未來是否會具備獨立調查約談甚至對大型的平台跟企業進行採訪的法定權限請說明"},{"start":8949.497,"end":8976.29,"text":"好 謝謝委員因為這是法律規定出來的一個獨立機關然後這個個資法有賦予給它的獨立調查的這個權限所以它本身是一個實質的一個工作機關它不是一個只是做一個協調或是說實質的獨立機關本身再請教主任你認為列為三級單位它的層級是不是"},{"start":8977.689,"end":9002.964,"text":"陳吉太提請說明我也是不會影響因為在我們這兩個層次一個是這是法律賦予的他要去執法那不管是公務機關非公務機關因為他是有法律賦予的當然是法律賦予所以你認為不會那也很好我們希望在8月份成立的時候我們有所作為但是如果沒有實質的監督的力道"},{"start":9003.524,"end":9028.761,"text":"那各支會呢他不僅沒有辦法去回應憲法法庭對於獨立監督的機制的要求也沒有辦法讓民眾對於政府有能力守住他們各支個人的資料的一個安全性的一個信任所以這一點非常的重要一定要謹慎之那接下來本校要請教也就是說國內各支外卸我們進來討論目前的樣態"},{"start":9037.248,"end":9055.247,"text":"1660萬筆的病患資料外洩到最近的張機因為駭客攻擊導致整個系統癱亂人民對於這個個資是焦慮不斷的在提升所以行政院在3月27號通過了個人資料保護法的修正草案"},{"start":9057.747,"end":9076.814,"text":"針對於非公務機關的行政檢查權並加強對私部門各自使用的一個監管但是我們看到目前許多的中小企業他們沒有資源去建構完整的資安管理體系那政府你如果以高密度"},{"start":9077.834,"end":9098.226,"text":"以反法的這個方式來進行稽查它可能會導致於它整個營運的一個負擔甚至相對會讓這個數位發展成為它另類的一個經濟壓力的一個來源所以本席要請教各自會定有明定六年過渡期六年的過渡期讓民眾"},{"start":9102.389,"end":9116.727,"text":"不知道你這個過渡期是要做什麼所以未來你是否會對於中小企業進行這個輔導讓中小企業它能夠有完整的一個治安你的六年過渡期到底是什麼請教"},{"start":9118.922,"end":9137.754,"text":"各位報告 那個六年是某些目前已經有在進行具體監管的比如說都有定 中央目的世界原來都有定安危辦法的這些業者我們會在這個過渡期因為這個機關剛投射它也是需要很多經驗人力的成長那對於我們中小企業呢是"},{"start":9138.971,"end":9160.316,"text":"中小企業假如說目前沒有列在未來這個公告六年還沒有回收的其他部分就全部都是個人資料保護人員會來進行監管都會來監管對啊那你這個六年到底我們因為很多人打電話來問中小企業他說這個到底是要做什麼因為六年的過渡期我們可以做什麼政府可以協助我們什麼請說明"},{"start":9161.536,"end":9188.79,"text":"就是那個所謂的六年是指會先公告某些行業還是先由現有的中央目的事業主任跟地方政府什麼時候會公告就等到這個法要實施了8月份會同步嗎會同步公告嗎我們努力大法官當時候的期盼是說能夠盡早啦當然大法官沒有說已經宣告了8月那請教8月要成立那這個相關的你說的行業別"},{"start":9189.89,"end":9200.26,"text":"你們有沒有規管 到底你們一定有KPI啊 現在已經五月了有 是 我們也在跟各個中央目的地正在討論就是現在還在討論 難怪民眾這麼害怕什麼時候會告訴我們當然這個法通過的時候 接下來這幾個都會進行都會進行什麼都會進行我們剛才所說的 因為要做這個公告啊 是 那什麼時候要公告"},{"start":9215.305,"end":9239.694,"text":"公告當然是要先配合我們現在行政院指定施行日期的時間指定施行日期所以現在沒有辦法告訴社會大眾什麼時候公告我覺得還是要準備期啦要準備期讓我們民眾也不安的一個時期希望你們要依照法令好好趕快去歸管公告讓民眾了解"},{"start":9241.1,"end":9245.733,"text":"了解 你現在沒有辦法告訴本席那最後我請書法部請書法部"},{"start":9253.897,"end":9277.587,"text":"蘇花部 本席要跟你討論的是 最近來詐騙的犯罪 橫行非常的多那被害人數跟金額一直在增加李主任你可以坐 謝謝那社群平台上面的詐騙廣告更是層出不窮 但是依照詐騙犯 這個詐欺犯罪違反條例裡頭的第39條蘇花部的角色是什麼 你是主管機關"},{"start":9278.567,"end":9299.882,"text":"對不對 你是主管機關應對於未合理期間內移除的違法廣告的業者依法裁決但是到目前為止 包括Facebook等這些大型的投資詐騙廣告橫行這麼多年 冒用的這麼多很多的名人都被冒用但是速發部你到目前為止是都沒有開罰"},{"start":9301.738,"end":9326.188,"text":"但是我們社會上就明明樣態是這麼多你是主管機關單位 更離譜的是刑事局北京給你一個數字 刑事局在今年1月到3月只有這三個月通報臉書下架 高達3.8萬則的詐騙廣告但是書發部你告訴我們的是說你尚未收到違法"},{"start":9327.168,"end":9340.056,"text":"的樣態違法的樣態那等於是讓放任讓詐騙廣告不斷的去重複來刊登啊你毫無實質的作為啊所以請教副座訴法部針對於臉書3.8萬則的詐騙廣告卻是零開罰的情況之下你們的作為是什麼請做說明"},{"start":9353.727,"end":9370.771,"text":"謝謝委員 請做說明有關這3.8萬則的部分因為我們有規定的下架時間那臉書都在法定的時間內已經下架處理那這個部分就是我們也都有陸續的追蹤那這個很糟糕 本席跟你實質討論你說他在這個範圍內就下架那你不是平白讓他們就當這個是溫床嗎打詐是法的目的是什麼"},{"start":9382.696,"end":9405.287,"text":"打造書法的目的是什麼是希望讓書發部你針對於這些的平台你更有監管的一個權利啊讓民眾可以安心啊你明明看到數量增加人數增加被詐騙的金額增加那你到底是你的法律面不夠還是你的執行面不夠"},{"start":9406.691,"end":9418.355,"text":"請做說明包委員這個部分首先還是要說明它已經在規定的時間下架這個部分規定的時間下架現在社會的樣態這麼嚴肅那你們要不要去討論要怎麼樣解決3.8萬刑事局要3.8萬則的廣告要下架那我們出發部毫無作為"},{"start":9430.82,"end":9453.369,"text":"要不要去檢討你的法律面跟你的執行面我們在執行面的部分也都有持續在跟業者溝通針對某些廣告特定的類型它內部的審查的部分的作為的精進這個部分我們產業署的部分也都有持續在跟業者溝通高高於尺 磨高於杖 本席具體建議針對於目前被詐騙的人數增加 金額增加"},{"start":9454.449,"end":9468.185,"text":"造成社會的不安請訴法部針對於你們的法律去研議你們的執行力去研議怎麼樣可以保障我們的人民啊不然我們通過打仗司法要做什麼"},{"start":9470.53,"end":9493.108,"text":"包委員這部分其他的目前刑事局有近期4月25號還有一些案件移送過來那這個相關的行政調查程序我們也在進行中那有確切違法行為的時候如果調查屬實我們還是會執行開放謝謝 趕快加油執行力要大 法不夠趕快提出讓人民詐騙的事件可以降低好不好 謝謝委員謝謝請回座下面執行請蔡議員"},{"start":9509.577,"end":9533.357,"text":"謝謝主席是不是有請這個李主任 理事長李主任主任早那針對早上有部分委員諮詢過基隆市這個民政處"},{"start":9534.907,"end":9559.918,"text":"就是公部門直接去非法利用民眾的個資這件事情我想要再具體問主任如果將來我們成立了個人資料的一個委員會那針對這樣的行為由公務員甚至機關的首長直接非法利用民眾的個資那未來我們要怎樣去處理這類似的事件跟委員報告"},{"start":9560.796,"end":9573.675,"text":"那在個資法的目前現行已經有的框架就已經規定的公務機關他在相關依法收集的這個可能要在原本的特定目的之內來進行的一個利用那"},{"start":9576.207,"end":9593.59,"text":"個人資料保護委員會成立之後對於公益機關的這個監管是一天又一天全部納管那剛剛講到說在看這個各樣的過程裡面他同時會很快處理到說這邊有沒有刑事責任 民事責任還有那個我想刑事責任這個"},{"start":9594.591,"end":9617.33,"text":"不會有問題嘛 因為你說這個處長也收押了嘛那使用個資會有刑事責任這件事但是我們從這裡看到一個很大的問題就是機關在使用民眾的個資這件事情看起來他的監管非常的薄弱是 所以現在要再形成公部門的這部分所謂的個人資料保護長這個機制要先帶進來"},{"start":9619.031,"end":9644.019,"text":"公部門的個人資料保護長保護長這個機制要先帶進來那如果個人資料保護長也因為機關的內部的一個文化他也被他也他就是使用這個啊照理民政處長他就是當然要保護個人個資啊如果民政處長帶頭去使用他人個資違法使用那未來如何確保個人資料保護長不會做出類似這樣的違法行徑"},{"start":9645.512,"end":9662.554,"text":"在我們現在的規劃公務機關業本來就是全民先納管有事前跟事後當然這個案子假如發生之後事後的檢查機制調查那當然會出來但是現在的規劃是會在事前我們會去做一個"},{"start":9663.195,"end":9686.722,"text":"公部門的部分我們有所謂的事前的一個計劃去落實現有的資料像尤其在這個個案裡面最主要看到他本來就已經有個作用法戶籍法那戶籍法裡面去規定相關的戶籍資料你各級人員去動用這個資料是用在哪個目的這些當然稽查的一個頻率跟過程他們用在目的就是用在罷免的連署啊"},{"start":9689.565,"end":9714.301,"text":"他應該只能用在正式假設說當然就是說使用民眾的個資如果是站在他的他要一個合法使用嘛那我現在想要請教的就是說那如果我是被利用的民眾第一個我可以自吸嗎我有辦法自吸我的個資是在這一次被非法利用的"},{"start":9715.686,"end":9737.797,"text":"裡面之一,我有辦法知道嗎?第二個,如果我知道了,我可以申請國賠嗎?是,剛剛說的第一個未來的運作的話,就是12條所說的那個通知當事人,因為它會變成是屬於個人資料安全維護的事故,包含裡面有人員把資料拿出去,那這個部分的話就會進到那個機制,要去通知當事人,那國賠本來現行規定28條就有啦,"},{"start":9740.938,"end":9769.777,"text":"那若是因為公務機關它裡面的公務員執行的職務去造成對於個人資料的一個侵害現有的規定我想基隆這個案例就很清楚啊你剛講的它都構成啊違反使用啊那現在只是說我個別被利用的人我沒有辦法知道所以這是我們的修法我們要求要通知那到底是多久的時間通知這個可能未來在處理法案的時候我們要討論就是通知的時間點然後第二個"},{"start":9770.698,"end":9790.656,"text":"好如果我個人我有辦法去查詢嗎就比方說我想要從去看我自己的健保資料這段期間有多少人查詢我或者是我要去看我的戶證資料我的我自己的房產資料或者是我的年增資料"},{"start":9792.066,"end":9806.005,"text":"因為我們知道說現在像聯合信用中心像銀行都會去查個人的年增資料那我有辦法知悉我在這段時間有多少人查我的資料這個我可以去有辦法去做查詢嗎"},{"start":9806.986,"end":9822.647,"text":"是 當然現在這個畫面有顯示另外一個資訊說蘇發部有去承諾未來當然他跟我們去討論說現有的平台我沒記錯 因為本來就有一個所謂的MyData這樣的一個平台也正在運作中"},{"start":9823.267,"end":9848.79,"text":"那如何去結合把這些深化到說他自己的一個跟他有關的個人資料相關的利用的一些內容假如在那個平台未來的發展可以去做當然我們當然也樂見這對於民眾的權益保障是我想就是說到底誰查詢我這件事情這個是可能再需要再進一步的調查可是民眾至少有權益可以去知道我被查詢幾次吧"},{"start":9850.211,"end":9877.362,"text":"我被查詢的次數至少要這一點先讓我知道至於到底是誰有一些可能是基於犯罪的偵訪這個調查官或是檢察官或者是其他的單位在查的那他們要有他們的目的那之後是不是要有一個回報機制讓人民知道我的資料被查詢了這個是第一個第二個我還是很在意的像這一次基隆的事件這些被查詢然後被用不當用在"},{"start":9878.567,"end":9884.679,"text":"這一個個資被用在跟罷免有關的那這個是不是符合郭培的要件"},{"start":9886.667,"end":9909.914,"text":"這件事情我覺得這個未來都要研究 多少人被處理這個法案就有這麼明目張膽這麼經典的盜用各自的案件在這裡這個狀況我覺得要好好研究而且未來要怎麼杜絕公部門不要再發生類似的狀況是 我們這個案例也會把它列為未來在修法過程裡面很重要的一個重點好 謝謝好 謝謝趙偉好 謝謝陳議員 請回座"},{"start":9916.096,"end":9937.618,"text":"蔡委員資訊真是經典 時間掌握又有效率 俗稱本委員會的楷模好 委員謝謝邱志維委員"},{"start":9940.017,"end":9961.788,"text":"下来请苏清泉委员苏清泉委员苏清泉委员不在请李坤成委员李坤成委员李坤成委员不在请钟嘉斌委员钟嘉斌委员钟嘉斌委员不在请李玉玲委员李玉玲委员李玉玲委员不在请林楚英委员林楚英委员林楚英委员不在请何新淳委员何新淳委员何新淳委员不在"},{"start":9962.691,"end":9983.641,"text":"好 登記發言委員除不在場者外均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員呂玉玲 謝一鳳 張家俊 陳超明所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢及未答覆部分請相關單位於一周內以書面答覆並複製本會本日議程詢答完畢我們則期再繼續審查現在散會"}]}},{"id":"16659","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16659","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d1a3f2a9ffa30080469e13353c436ea8514bfadd538e1bbbf720fa78d008f55635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長、原住民族委員會主任委員報告「運用總合外交理念結合南島語系國家，以發揮價值外交願景之規劃與策略」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-08","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-08T08:31:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-08T11:33:00+08:00","duration":10903,"影片長度":"03:01:43","委員發言時間":"08:31:17 - 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習世民主計處處長 李佩華資訊及電務處副處長 羅倩薇公眾外交協調會執行長 蕭光維非政府組織國際事務會執行長 江振維台灣日本關係協會秘書長 范振國"},{"start":1987.383,"end":2011.819,"text":"台灣美國事務委員會秘書長邱高維外交及國際事務學院副院長陳文藝領事事務局代理局長陳善友財團法人國際合作發展基金會副秘書長石立軍財團法人台灣民主基金會執行長廖達祺"},{"start":2015.7,"end":2036.391,"text":"裁判法人太平洋經濟合作理事會秘書長徐俊斌顏族民族委員會主任委員另有要工請假本席已准假由副主任委員鍾欣華代理綜合公開處處長"},{"start":2041.892,"end":2068.186,"text":"雅柏昇勇博伊哲怒經濟發展署副助長高文斌教育文化署專門委員馬勒夫勒夫杜納杜坦利茂社會福利署副助長董敬峰"},{"start":2069.844,"end":2097.274,"text":"原住民文化發展中心組長謝美蘭本會邀請外交部原住民委員會報告應用總和外交理念結合南島以西國家以發展價值外交願景之規劃以策略並備執行首先請外交部陳政務次長上台報告"},{"start":2108.789,"end":2135.936,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士各位先生大家早非常感謝貴委員會的一個邀請那麼請代表外交部就今天的主題運用總和外交理念結合南大陸語系國家以發揮價值外交願景的規劃跟策略提出報告那麼我就則要的就口頭來向各位委員報告那相關的細節敬請各位委員參考本部完整的書面報告"},{"start":2137.864,"end":2165.378,"text":"那援助民族社群是我們國家的重要成員所屬的南島語系跟太平洋地區共享種族、語言、文化根源外交部持續以總和外交、民主、和平、繁榮三大支柱建構全球民主價值鏈的策略以創新的思維與包括南島語系國家在內的所有區域夥伴緊密合作"},{"start":2166.198,"end":2191.512,"text":"外交部的具體的作為跟規劃說明如下第一,我們結合南島元素推動高層外交蔡前總統在2017年跟2019年兩次出訪太平洋友邦賴總統在去年的時候也以繁榮南島智慧永續之旅都邀請了原住民委員會"},{"start":2192.552,"end":2220.355,"text":"主任委員擔任訪團的成員歷次的出訪也都將這個南島文化元素融入到我們的參訪行程裡面另外去年帛琉慶祝獨立30週年的時候總統也指派了原住民委員會曾志勇主任委員擔任總統的特使充分展現台灣跟太平洋友邦共享南島文化的深厚連結"},{"start":2221.857,"end":2241.271,"text":"二,我們會強化這個南島語系各友邦的經濟韌性,並且建立南島文化交流合作的一個機制。面臨到國際局勢的一個變動,外交部在總和外交的架構下,積極地推動跟太平洋區域南島語系各友邦間以數位、"},{"start":2242.652,"end":2252.2,"text":"綠色健康任性為主軸的榮邦計畫具體包括推動帛琉的永續觀光計畫跟馬紹爾群島經濟合作協定ECA在本年生效"},{"start":2258.965,"end":2282.03,"text":"以及協助土瓦魯填海造陸以及建置海底電纜等等此外外交部持續跟原民會合作推動與南島語系國家建立機制文化交流機制建構了文化交流的機制比如說馬薩爾群島跟馬薩爾群島簽署了南島民族文化事務合作協定"},{"start":2282.87,"end":2293.695,"text":"我們跟帛琉也簽署了原民事務合作備忘錄持續建立並且擴大台灣跟南島友邦的交流機制跟管道"},{"start":2295.441,"end":2313.076,"text":"那麼也推動太平洋區多邊參與以強化連結外交部持續透過太平洋島國論壇PIF以及這個太平洋海洋專員辦公室OPOC以及APEC架構之下在兩千"},{"start":2314.737,"end":2331.963,"text":"22年生效的援助民族經濟貿易合作協議等區域多邊機制積極強化跟南島語系國家連結。此外,我們也積極協助原民會辦理南島民族論壇。"},{"start":2334.044,"end":2338.806,"text":"2018年這個論壇從起到現在已經在我們太平洋兩個友邦包括帛琉跟馬薩爾群島各辦理過一次"},{"start":2349.77,"end":2375.804,"text":"那麼我們也促進南島文化價值融入外交人力建構外交部持續的辦理太平洋島國青年領袖培育計畫PILP那麼邀請10個太平洋島國派員來台參訓以具體的行動來推動我原名外交另外我們也十分注重將南島文化元素融入新進外交人員的培訓體系那麼"},{"start":2378.886,"end":2404.205,"text":"也安排了 比如說我們在本部訓練新進同仁的課程中安排了原民會來講授我國原住民族政策與原住民外交的課程並計劃安排新進人員陪同外賓赴我原民部落交流以提升總和外交之下原民外交的總體的效益"},{"start":2406.035,"end":2409.388,"text":"為用多軌外交深化南島民族文化交流跟連結"},{"start":2410.598,"end":2438.281,"text":"外交部一直透過民間交流的二軌外交促進我國跟南島與系國家之間的交流就以2024年為例我們就已經補助了15個原住民族民間團體進行國際交流那麼也支持我國的這個民間團體拓展國際參與空間此外我們也跟具有這個原住民族身份的這個無論所大使"},{"start":2439.982,"end":2456.168,"text":"這個富阿布達爾大使跟布辛大利大使合作以更靈活那麼以更務實的方式來推動我國跟這個南島文化國家之間的交流合作他們也拓展這個多元領域的交流"},{"start":2457.088,"end":2470.915,"text":"外交部持續透過運動外交、文化外交等方式深化我國跟各個原住民合作夥伴的關係原民會從2021年開始每年辦理全國原住民運動會"},{"start":2472.896,"end":2500.532,"text":"今年這個運動會也會邀請我國的8個友邦的留學生組隊參加另外該會也將於今年11月底到12月初舉行國際援助民族運動會外交部正在協助洽邀地區內各個國家組隊來參與並且將會跟原民會合作接待各國的代表隊並且提供行政的支持"},{"start":2501.432,"end":2517.25,"text":"透過運動外交建構南島語系國家向心力最後我們也曾在全球合作級訓練架構GCTF的架構之下在帛琉舉辦了南島語言副鎮國際論壇"},{"start":2519.713,"end":2533.573,"text":"那麼在之後每年協助人民會以這個南島民族語言附贈為題舉辦大型的國際研討會促進南島語系南島語言保存並且展現文化多元化"},{"start":2535.623,"end":2555.819,"text":"結論,台灣跟南島語系的國家不僅是一個共享文化、語言跟民主的夥伴,更是在地緣上共同面對威權挑戰的同盟夥伴。外交部會持續透過行政院的經濟外交工作小組平台整合跨部會的資源,"},{"start":2556.739,"end":2577.94,"text":"透過總和外交的價值理念實踐人人都是外交官步步都是外交部的精神打造台灣新世界世界新台灣謝謝接著請原住民委員會中副主委進行報告"},{"start":2587.506,"end":2610.845,"text":"主席各位委員大家早首先感謝大院外交及國防委員會邀請原住民主委員會列席報告讓我們有機會就本會就國際交流政策與執行現況向各位委員報告以下就簡要的說明台灣原住民族與太平洋多數島國同屬南島與西的民族"},{"start":2611.886,"end":2638.297,"text":"彼此在語言上文化上有深厚的連結自本會成立以來即以南島文化為基礎推動國際交流並在107年重啟南島民主論壇搭建與南島與西國家的合作平台近年來在政策交流青年與女性的賠利業務文化博物館合作以及產業發展等領域取得了豐碩的成果"},{"start":2639.751,"end":2652.734,"text":"儘管今年部分經費減少,我們仍將堅持三大原則,以南島文化為基礎,原住民族為主體,並配合國家總和外交策略,讓台灣原住民族文化走向世界。"},{"start":2653.939,"end":2676.951,"text":"第一 在深化南島連結方面今年12月本會將首度舉辦世界原住民族傳統運動會邀請來自太平洋、中美洲、紐西蘭、加拿大、澳洲等11個國家組隊與我國原住民族運動員共襄盛舉透過傳統禁忌連結海洋文化與族群的情誼"},{"start":2678.51,"end":2701.047,"text":"巴西瓦里的國際音樂節是我們從107年就開始推動的重要活動每年都吸引超過數萬人士參與今年12月也將首度安排音樂走入部落企劃讓國際業務團隊深入部落與族人實質交流共創音樂文化對話的可能在博物館的國際合作方面"},{"start":2702.029,"end":2729.776,"text":"國立原住民族博物館已經在今年4月正式進入籌備階段我們積極與馬紹爾阿雷雷博物館紐約大都會博物館洽談合作並與紐西蘭、日本等地持續深化博物館交流期望未來再成為南島語族共同的文化平台另外透過文化專屬的翻譯計畫我們已出版多本南島文化書籍今年也首度參與"},{"start":2731.254,"end":2742.877,"text":"台北國際書展獲得熱烈迴響我們也期待持續透過出版書籍讓全球的華語讀者更認識太平洋文化的豐富內涵第二"},{"start":2743.635,"end":2769.838,"text":"在青年與女性培力方面本會持續培養具國際視野的青年人才並將於今年辦理世界青年論壇暨部落社區服務計畫加強青年與部落的連結也將在今年12月辦理原住民族女性論壇以女性的任性的世代合作為題邀請各國原住民族女性領袖來台探討部落自覺與社會的發展"},{"start":2771.659,"end":2786.655,"text":"擴展女性父權的影響力第三在經貿合作部分本會與紐西蘭毛利發展部每年輪流舉辦台紐經濟合作協定原住民族專章的協調會議今年也一致討論推動繪本計畫出版"},{"start":2789.378,"end":2809.156,"text":"青年交流、企业对话、对接等合作另外在原住民族经济贸易合作协议的机制下本会也将与其他经济体合作规划在今年的8月大办了世界博览会相关活动让台湾的原住民族在国际经贸合作中发挥更重要的角色"},{"start":2810.188,"end":2833.46,"text":"主席還有各位委員台灣原住民族的文化是我們與世界交流的重要資產本會將持續以實際的行動落實總統原住民族政策與價值外交並善用現有的資源深耕南島文化的連結與外交部配合讓台灣的原住民族在國際舞台上發光發熱以上的報告謝謝各位委員"},{"start":2838.57,"end":2856.748,"text":"现在开始询答本会委员6加2分钟非本会委员5分钟10点半发言登记截止如有临时提案请以10点半以前提出11点左右处理现在请陈俊仪委员上台之行"},{"start":2872.193,"end":2887.276,"text":"好謝謝主席在場各位我們外交部及我們園民會的夜席的主管大家早安大家好那我先請我們外交部的陳次長次長早委員早"},{"start":2897.363,"end":2916.531,"text":"市長我想就這個台販我們跟范締剛的外交相關的發展走向來請教我們市長那在這個教宗方濟各的喪禮在4月26號已經舉行了那包括台灣在內有160個"},{"start":2919.719,"end":2931.316,"text":"160幾個國家的領袖及特使參加我們台灣則是派出陳建仁前副總統因為他與梵蒂岡"},{"start":2932.113,"end":2958.199,"text":"有一個深遠的關係那也在這一次的代表出席過程裡面收獲蠻豐碩的與多國的元首包括拜登前總統都有機會能夠來做意見交換那在這之前中共曾經要求叫停禁止台灣的代表團派員參加"},{"start":2959.861,"end":2964.892,"text":"但是被教廷以外交管道拒絕但是這個中共"},{"start":2966.263,"end":2992.065,"text":"最後就決定他們缺席來抵制這場的典禮那我想就這個問題就叫我們次長外交部在和教廷交涉的過程當中是否有感受到中共所帶來的壓力那在這一次中國的缺席事件是否會影響過去幾年台灣與范緹剛之間所建立的關係甚至會影響到新任教宗的選舉"},{"start":2993.379,"end":3019.879,"text":"是 那麼我們是一個正式的這個使團嘛那麼因為這個我們台泛的關係這個非常的長久已經83年了雙方的互動也都一直很密切那麼經過雙方的討論之後那麼因為陳前總統陳前副總統曾經六度的進建教宗方濟各並且獲得教宗親自來頒授教廷宗座"},{"start":3021.16,"end":3046.122,"text":"這個科學院的院士的證章那跟教宗的關係非常的深厚所以我們最後決定由陳前總統陳前副總統對不起代表我國的出席的這個教宗的一個上禮我相信說他的一個參與那麼其實也證實了說台灣跟范帝章之間的關係非常的這個兩邊的關係非常的好那麼這個是毋庸置疑的"},{"start":3046.742,"end":3066.721,"text":"至於這個是不是有感受到這個中方的來自於中國大陸的壓力那麼就我們來說我們不是去感受到壓力的一方而是這個范麗鋼那我們也很高興范麗鋼能夠還是堅持雖然是說這個放棄各教宗放棄各的喪禮當然是對於這個全球的這個"},{"start":3067.842,"end":3083.104,"text":"天主教徒尤其對於梵蒂岡來說是一個悲傷的事情但是他們在這個時候還是能夠基於台灣跟梵蒂岡之間深厚的友誼做出一個很好的決定好,就是不是我們的壓力"},{"start":3085.37,"end":3107.61,"text":"我們並沒有感受到這樣的壓力新任的教宗也在選舉當中今天臺灣時間凌晨應該到目前為止是沒有明確的結果我想在2013年方濟各教宗宣誓就職的典禮"},{"start":3109.191,"end":3125.935,"text":"所派出的是當時的馬英九總統伉儷那陳建仁副總統在日前也接受訪問的時候表示說我們希望在新任教宗就職典禮能有我們的賴清德總統能夠代表出席"},{"start":3126.735,"end":3149.089,"text":"對於這個部分,我們對於新任教宗就職的特使團,外交部是不是已經在進行相關的規劃內容?並且與教廷保持密切的聯繫,同樣會以安排我們總統出席作為最終的一個目標,有沒有可能?"},{"start":3149.929,"end":3172.361,"text":"當然我們這個跟教廷隨時保持一個良好的溝通那畢竟現在教廷的最重要的一個事情是要選出新的這個教宗他們也很忙齁那麼後續的安排我們會密切的跟那麼我們跟這個教廷會保持好的聯繫那至於人選上面那個是主要是由這個總統府這邊來因為是這個不管是總統自己"},{"start":3173.742,"end":3188.175,"text":"這個去或者是說要派代表去我想都是由總統府來做決定那外交部是完全配合那麼盡力的爭取那麼達成這個總統所交付的使命為最高的指導原則好 很保守"},{"start":3190.38,"end":3218.042,"text":"並沒有保守 這個大概是因為這個牽涉到雙方嘛我想是說我們這一個也是總統府有做決策那麼軍外交部的角色來說我們就是全力的爭取然後跟對方能夠有好的一個溝通互動然後能夠確保我們的這一個雙邊的關係也能夠保持平衡那畢竟我們是這一個宗教自由的國家我想教廷對這個也非常的了解那麼台灣也有相當數量的這個天主教徒也需要"},{"start":3220.544,"end":3242.52,"text":"教宗的牧羊我想這些東西都是考慮在內那麼我們也把這些訊息傳達給教廷來做那現在也跟委員報告現在梵蒂岡他最重要的工作就是透過這個書密會議來選出新的教宗這是他們的最重要的工作然後後續再來安排他的相關的疑點市長 積極爭取"},{"start":3247.244,"end":3251.995,"text":"一定,全力爭取,我們全力爭取好,那在過去幾年齁,我們跟這個台灣的這個外交關係齁"},{"start":3257.113,"end":3280.918,"text":"有不穩的傳言不穩定的傳言包括之前我們林佳永部長也在節目上曾提及需要特別關注我們和教廷的關係但同時也看到台灣與范締剛之間保持密切的交流尤其是在宗教的對話合作上這幾天教廷跨宗教對話部的副秘書長"},{"start":3282.399,"end":3298.673,"text":"這個包林神父也來到台灣那有關下個階段要如何來加強鞏固我們與范緹剛的這個邦誼外交部有沒有具體的一個規劃我們這個都持續在做啦那也還是跟委員報告一下那麼有一些基本的"},{"start":3299.454,"end":3326.912,"text":"工作一直在進行包括護房那麼包括一起辦活動那麼也一直在傳達我們是一個尊重宗教自由的國家我想教廷對這個有完全的一個了解跟掌握那麼另外一個就是說新的這個教宗選舉出來之後他的整個的相關的教廷的一些安排那麼也緊密的來我們就非常這個注意相關的這個事情的發展"},{"start":3329.513,"end":3347.612,"text":"台灣與梵蒂岡的情誼、邦誼已經83年了我們也希望外交部能夠持續強化和教廷在各個領域上的合作讓我們能夠穩固兩國的邦誼共同保障宗教信仰的自由一定另外"},{"start":3348.172,"end":3361.182,"text":"就美國挺台灣參與國際的部分,我想就叫次長,在上個月美國代表在聯合國安理會批評中國誤用2758號的決議,到這個禮拜美國眾議院通過兩項重要的友台法案,包括"},{"start":3371.213,"end":3395.662,"text":"台灣保證落實法案最主要是要強化美台行政部門的交流另外還有一個是台灣國際團結法案它的內容非常清楚的表示聯合國2758號決議未處理台灣在聯合國及其相關組織中的代表權的問題也未對台灣的主權做出任何的表述"},{"start":3397.383,"end":3417.557,"text":"我想結合安理會與眾議院兩個事件是不是代表美國的行政和立法部門有共識會以實際的行動來支持台灣積極參與國際的機會能否有效來抵制中共的相關論述"},{"start":3418.698,"end":3438.744,"text":"是,那麼有關2758,那麼這個聯合國2758決議,那麼中共一直在國際上面散播很多的曲解,那麼那個錯誤的這個解讀,那麼也強壓它的這個國際社會接受,那我們在這上面結合理念相近的國家,全力的來"},{"start":3439.804,"end":3465.222,"text":"正確的去詮釋那我們也很高興看到這個美國在這個眾院裡面跨黨派的議員支持用兩個法案就像剛才委員所提到的那最重要當然提到了這一個27584這個台灣國際團結法案這個台灣International Solidarity Act這上面的東西那麼我想這個都充分的展示了那其實不是只有"},{"start":3466.142,"end":3489.786,"text":"這個立法部門包括行政部門也一再的在重複的傳達一個清楚的訊息還包括您剛才提到在安理會上面就是2758這樣的一個決議並不涉及這個台灣而且也沒有排除台灣有異議的參與那麼這個是這個我們跟理念相近的國家共同努力的一個結果好"},{"start":3490.832,"end":3499.746,"text":"這部分我想也是請外交部能夠對於美國的友好的表述,我們應該要積極的來做一個"},{"start":3501.717,"end":3527.586,"text":"這個回應,也要讓這個國際感受到我們對於這個美國的這種對我們的友好,我們希望所有的友邦或是一些國家都能夠認同也能夠來對於台灣的一個支持我想這樣才能夠增加我們台灣在國際上的一個能見度,也可以讓我們與其他的國家有一個更好的一個邦誼"},{"start":3528.57,"end":3551.281,"text":"絕對謝謝委員長我們外交部長我們林部長已經在這個具體的感謝這個行政部美國行政部門跟跨黨派這個對台灣的這個支持那麼事實上也跟委員報告不只是只有美國歐洲很多的國家很多世界上理念相近的國家就一而再再而三的強調2758沒有這個處理台灣的問題那麼也沒有排除台灣有異議的國際參與好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝市長"},{"start":3558.766,"end":3582.183,"text":"好謝謝陳靜雲委員好下面我們請黃仁委員質詢我們請顏明慧副主任委員委員好"},{"start":3584.057,"end":3607.57,"text":"剛剛我聽到這個外交部次長所提到的就是我國的我國總共有個八個邦交那後來你再也有報告之後你也報告說台灣原住民族與太平洋區域多數島國地區的人民同屬南島與西的民族OK好待會我來問"},{"start":3609.281,"end":3618.268,"text":"我們屬於南太平洋這個太平洋以多數的島國的地區那既然"},{"start":3620.017,"end":3646.544,"text":"既然是以國際交流的項目經費只不過是1976萬這哪像是一個國際外交的經費這個是我要跟你提醒的今天不是因為加減的問題是因為你們沒有前瞻性而且是只是做格式化"},{"start":3647.324,"end":3656.438,"text":"沒有突破性沒有前瞻性當然經費就會有縮減所以這個是要提醒你們的等一下我要講的是我們"},{"start":3658.049,"end":3678.375,"text":"依照延民會目前的組織編列編制負責延民外交或者是國際事務的組織單位是哪一個每年用以延民外交的預算有多少剛剛我提的對不對好那延民會的業務單位包含圖管處、工建處、經發處、社福處"},{"start":3682.233,"end":3695.35,"text":"教文處、中規處、所有圖館處及工建處其他業務單位都有可能接觸到原民外交的事務是原住民外交是一個原住民事務"},{"start":3698.482,"end":3721.778,"text":"再提的外交議題然後最主要的價值是在以利益而利益為主軸的外交戰場上以原住民的情感連結化解各自國家利益間的衝突所以本席特別強調的我們應該以原民外交為外交困境的突破口"},{"start":3723.459,"end":3741.674,"text":"不只是因為本席具有原住民的身份那主要的原民外交是以人而非以國家為交往的主體這也是顯示原民外交有非常多內涵可以跨口"},{"start":3744.177,"end":3765.973,"text":"找出一个共通性那因此本席再请教言明会副主委如果言明外交可以涉及到语言情感文化经济等内涵言明会是不是需要一个专者的业务单位以统合这些可以外交上发挥的内涵本席建议言明会思考成立国际处"},{"start":3767.249,"end":3788.602,"text":"的可能性這樣才能發揮到力量請問剛剛我們邦交有八個邦交可是我們屬於太平洋南太平洋的民主的一個南歐以西的民主你們只有在這八個裡面的範圍內而沒有突破性到其他的"},{"start":3790.302,"end":3805.41,"text":"這個屬於這個南島語系的民主嗎所以這個就是你們現在要有突破性要有前瞻性你只有一個一年的預算一千九百多萬而已這什麼叫國際外交你如何突破"},{"start":3806.667,"end":3820.999,"text":"傅志偉你來說明一下是跟委員報告陳副委員所提到的台灣的原住民族是屬於南島語族的地區的發源地我想大家都有這樣的一個認知所以我們在107年就重啟了南島論壇這樣的一個NGO組織那這個部分"},{"start":3824.793,"end":3847.184,"text":"已經有15個會員然後一個觀察員那除了這16個之外還有包括澳洲、美國、加拿大也都會參與我們的一些交流所以我們也在語言、文化、產業跟學術、政策的研究都有每年這樣的一個工作在推動那我們現在已經很早就成立一個中和規劃處裡面的一個國際事務科"},{"start":3849.665,"end":3875.567,"text":"我想我們事務科的工作人力以目前這樣的一個狀況來推動現在還算是很順利而且也推動了不少在南島以西國家的這樣的一個交流的工作我跟你講剛剛我已經說明你們都是一個格式化對不對格式化沒有突破性現在原民外交是最重要的一環因為它不是以國家的利益以原住民的利益"},{"start":3876.848,"end":3890.394,"text":"跟我們整個南島語系的民主做一個連結性、語言性跟共通性的結合這也是在外交以外的能夠讓我們外交突破的一個重點"},{"start":3892.575,"end":3916.254,"text":"所以這個就是我要建議的是不是要建立一個成立一個國際處而讓它的編制讓它的藝創會有更多的然後推動我們這些原民外交這才是真正要推展的因為現在我們的外交現在美當初是一個困境搞不好還要斷了一個外交"},{"start":3918.393,"end":3932.567,"text":"我們原名外交非常重要的一環所以我建議是不是你們責成跟各部會跟外交部跟其他的部會裡面做一個聯繫是不是成立一個國際處的"},{"start":3935.65,"end":3946.017,"text":"可能性,這是我特別提出來的那另外就是,聯合國在經濟社會理事會底下的一個機構為聯合國土問題常設論壇功能是專門為聯合國機構提供原住民問題的專業意見"},{"start":3960.956,"end":3979.023,"text":"請問外交部次長和嚴明會副主委我國在這個論壇參與程度為何出席演講發言還是參與討論而已外交部要如何強化我國在此論壇的參與那外交部你先回答一下長生論壇"},{"start":3987.339,"end":4011.758,"text":"聯合國經濟及社會理事會底下的一個機構為聯合國獨駐問題常識論壇這已經是一個專責的一個機構了專責的一個機構了所以功能是專門在聯合國機構提供原住民問題的專業意見請問外交部你來問一下我想外交部是最外行提到這個問題的來問一下是"},{"start":4016.116,"end":4038.917,"text":"是 那麼因為是聯合國的這個組織那當然我們這個在中共的阻撓之下那麼不好直接參加但是我們包括我們這個我現在先馬上糾正你的這些什麼中共第一個我們在聯合國裡面就是一個少數民族的一個"},{"start":4042.458,"end":4057.071,"text":"這個少數民族的一些關係的一個夥伴關係怎麼會是跟中共有關係呢聯合國已經設定我們在台灣的少數民族是一個夥伴關係的一個角色那既然今天他已經"},{"start":4058.071,"end":4074.845,"text":"設出了一個經濟及社會理事會底下的一個機構為聯合國土住問題常識的論壇它就是一個專制機構門給你打開了但問題是我們嚴明會我們嚴明外交根本沒有涉入這樣的一個重點第二個"},{"start":4075.906,"end":4095.465,"text":"為什麼要讓你成立一個國際處就是要把預算增加然後編制增加讓他們真正的對於外交以外原民跟聯合國南太平洋這樣的一個國家裡面做一個連結做一個聯通這才是真正可以發揮"},{"start":4097.507,"end":4118.083,"text":"也謝謝委員對原民在國際事務上的推動的關心那有關聯合國的長壽議題論壇其實我們每年都會有原住民租人參加像今年的部分四月份舉辦我們有三個團體我們都補助他們來參與這樣的一個活動剛剛我就講了嘛你們都是格式化嘛現在你有沒有突破性的一個方法你現在回答我"},{"start":4119.461,"end":4132.668,"text":"還是你現在下次麻煩你用書面詳細詳查的未來你們要推動的原民外銷現在我們已經有無認所的大使"},{"start":4133.821,"end":4151.617,"text":"現在我剛剛我在兩屆的上一屆的外交部長包含這一屆的林佳龍部長我都會提希望還有一個有認手的大使希望你提出一個原住民的有認手的大使真正能夠拓展到我說"},{"start":4153.049,"end":4171.799,"text":"我們外交部麻煩你們重視我們原民外交因為我常提的原民外交現在你們外交部現在也沒有辦法再突破能夠跟建立跟其他國家裡面再做一個邦交而且甚至可能會有斷交的可能"},{"start":4172.459,"end":4196.801,"text":"所以要借用原住民的原民外銷跟南太平洋的立場拓展這樣的一個業務這才是真正你們要重視的好不好是 那副主委麻煩你書面的詳查詳密給我有沒有可能成立一個國際處好不好好 我們會書面報告送給委員來讓委員了解因為你們這些報告裡面就已經提出來了嘛"},{"start":4198.561,"end":4226.183,"text":"台湾原住民以太平洋区域多数岛国地区的人民同属南岛语系的民族不是只有八个邦交你们应该这一句话就是要拓展更多的邦交的以外的南岛语系的民族 好不好好 谢谢是 谢谢委员 谢谢好 谢谢黄仁委员下面我们请罗密尤林委员发言 谢谢"},{"start":4237.865,"end":4241.149,"text":"謝謝主席 有請袁銘慧中副主委羅委員好"},{"start":4246.48,"end":4268.548,"text":"副主委好副主委為了今天的這個議題本席有上網搜尋了南島民族論壇的這個網站結果一直都沒有辦法連上這個網站甚至還有顯示說下架了怎麼回事啊我們這論壇已經執行了五年居然連個網站都連不上去到底怎麼回事請問副主委"},{"start":4269.088,"end":4289.037,"text":"是 根據委員報告因為在我們這一次的經費的部分有減列了一千九百多萬那包括網站的違印這個部分當然也是涵蓋在裡面所以我們本年度的網站無法進行在治安的檢查跟更新的違印工作所以我們為了治安的考量先暫時關閉"},{"start":4291.705,"end":4314.703,"text":"所以是因為我們被刪了一千九百七十六萬跟這個有關係因為網站無法維護所以我們就停掉了這個網站因為這個中維署裡面大概一千九百多萬這個包括開一些會議的部分維持營運的部分的經費我們這個部分就剪裂了所以我們就沒有辦法只好做一個為了治安的考量"},{"start":4316.053,"end":4340.374,"text":"那這樣子 我們今年的南島民族論壇還有辦法辦下去嗎 請問各位報告 我們還是有 因為還有部分的經費也還在因為剛剛也提到我們的南島論壇或國際事務的部分不是只有在中規處 包括教育文化處 經濟發展處 社會福利處都有相關的一些經費在做國際交流或者世界研究民族的合作的相關工作"},{"start":4340.839,"end":4356.739,"text":"所以這個論壇還是可以繼續下去論壇的部分部分的工作可以繼續下去我們說你想的會有哪一些啊因為本席在想本來想說連這個網站都我本來想說看看過去五年來我們這執行的內容是什麼結果完全看不到所以除了臉書之外"},{"start":4357.359,"end":4368.003,"text":"這個我本來想說這裡面自己的專網可能會比較清楚結果完全連不上去結果是跟這個經費被刪有關係那我們這次如果是這樣子刪了1976萬將近2000萬的這個經費那我們這個六年計劃南島民族論壇六年計劃會受影響的項目會有哪一些呢"},{"start":4376.165,"end":4404.74,"text":"對這一次因為檢列了1900多萬大概都是在中規處裡面的業務費用中規處裡面的很多業務幾乎都沒有辦法進行了是不是包括所謂的可能執行委員會的會議還有論壇大會可能就會停辦論壇大會對還有包括帛琉總部以及台北秘書處可能暫時先停止營運大概是這樣子那這個部分也是因為檢列之後也要符合預算法的相關規定來做執行"},{"start":4405.359,"end":4419.735,"text":"所以目前這個都沒有辦法因為它是整個就刪掉了所以就沒有辦法挽回了對 如果是說凍結的話它有解凍可是這個是整個刪除所以目前今年度次勢必這些副主委剛才所講的部分是完全沒有辦法執行的"},{"start":4420.456,"end":4442.074,"text":"是 因為也要符合預算法的相關規定 既然沒有 既然是檢驗的話這個部分的業務大概要推動比較不容易OK 那當然剛剛我們莊委 黃元莊委剛剛有提到就是南島民族論壇計畫這個部分已經執行五年了 當然有很多需要檢討的這個地方因為像之前我們也看到這個立法院這個"},{"start":4443.435,"end":4464.004,"text":"也有提出來一些我們有些成果型跟效率型的這個績效這個指標需要去去做調整去做加強因為再來我們後面還有115年到120年的第二期的這個計劃那這個第二期的計劃能不能獲得支持我想未來調整的方向很重要這部分我在想黃榮主委剛才講趙董講的部分就是說績效的部分我覺得這個是有它的道理在"},{"start":4470.807,"end":4490.386,"text":"這個部分的話 我在想原民會這個部分要來做調整只是比較可惜就是說我們說我們比較擔心就是說會影響到我們這個國際交流的這個部分那剛剛一開始我們原民會就有提到就是說我們跟很多南島國家其實呢在語言文化上面有很多相似的這個地方那本席呢也是來自我們我在這個"},{"start":4492.388,"end":4509.479,"text":"南島語系國家出生長大所以也很清楚就是說我們的馬來語馬來西亞的馬來語其實跟台灣原住民的語言很類似是副主委您是排灣族嗎我排灣族屏東的那像這個數字我講四好了排灣族怎麼說四百四百我們馬來語叫N百然後五呢數字五呢五阿美族也是五對不對那十呢雙倍"},{"start":4521.49,"end":4537.19,"text":"那馬來西亞語 馬來語叫所以其實是非常相近的那我再請問一下我們 趙偉我們怎麼說阿美族 吉他我們也是吉他 或是咖咪對不對咖咪也是一樣對不對那你們呢"},{"start":4538.978,"end":4541.641,"text":"跟馬來語幾乎都是一樣嘛那周偉 姐姐 我 姐姐 怎麼稱呼 姐姐 哥哥馬來西亞語 馬來語也是哥哥"},{"start":4558.735,"end":4570.198,"text":"我們也叫嘎嘎 兄弟姊妹都叫嘎嘎 加名字就知道是哪一個嘎嘎眼睛都不用說了 嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎嘎"},{"start":4583.609,"end":4611.222,"text":"我们也叫Hujan,马来语也叫Hujan这样讲一讲,十几二十个单字是一样的所以你看我来自于马来西亚我们国家的马来语跟台湾族语跟阿美族语几乎都是一样嘛对不对那当然我知道像过去有很多马来西亚的这个原住民其实也到访台湾像我们马来西亚砂劳越的伊班族其实跟台东我们蓝语的这个达沃族"},{"start":4611.882,"end":4630.501,"text":"語言文化服飾幾乎都是一樣的所以我們跟這些南島國家的這個交流絕對不能夠斷這個因為說實在可能都還是有很濃密的這個血緣的這個關係所以我在想說我們真的是要善用我們在這些南島國家的這些資源"},{"start":4631.301,"end":4650.058,"text":"也許在國際上面有一些困難可是我們甚至可以經過民間的資源來拓展我們的原民文化我們原民的外交跟國際來做接軌那當然我必須要強調就是說其實我們不單單只有跟八個邦交國互動我們跟很多南岛"},{"start":4651.119,"end":4676.539,"text":"語系的國家互動印尼、馬來西亞、菲律賓我們都有很多很多的互動我在想說我們經過文化語言的共通性我們可以共同來建造一個台灣跟原民更加美好更加國際化的一個未來這是我在這裡很期待的一部分當然這也跟我自己的背景出身有很大的關係"},{"start":4677.72,"end":4698.884,"text":"那尤其是我在台灣跟很多的原民朋友在聊天的時候堂堂會發現說我們有很多的語言其實是非常的類似所以以本席的立場當然很希望就是說原民會這邊還有外交部這邊能夠積極地來拓展這個南島文化我想這是台灣一個很重要很美的一個資源啦"},{"start":4699.364,"end":4714.418,"text":"對啊那當然最後我還想問主委喔您認為說南島國家像太平洋很多小島都有很多南島民族他們到底起源是來自於哪裡大家都在討論您覺得是來自於哪裡"},{"start":4715.154,"end":4731.243,"text":"我想我們比較認同的論說是台灣是南島起源說因為從語言的複雜性還有植物的原生種很多都是來自於台灣那從語言學家植物學家甚至基因的研究台灣應該是起源我想有這樣的一個說法"},{"start":4733.965,"end":4750.901,"text":"民族的起源嘛所以像我知道說最近也有一些中國的統戰言論也就是說他們東南沿海才是可是我們可以發現那我自己本身來自於南海國家我們很清楚不管是在語言民族上面其實我們跟中國東南沿海其實有很大的這個相差很大"},{"start":4752.663,"end":4776.319,"text":"所以其實台灣應該還是真正的這個起源因為台灣的原名算是南島語系民族它跟漢藏語系民族的確是不太一樣是完全不一樣那剛剛委員特別提到的有關我們六年中長城計畫的部分我想我們也正在炒您下一期的六年那我們也會把委員還有主席剛剛的建議我們都會納入我們的新的計畫裡面OK 好 這個應該要改善了讓它更好 謝謝副主委謝謝"},{"start":4782.199,"end":4808.504,"text":"謝謝羅美玲嘎嘎的發言接下來由陳冠廷委員上台發言我們請次長蔡委員早"},{"start":4809.448,"end":4827.683,"text":"市長好市長最近我們阿里山它受到國際的矚目我看2025年5月6號國家地理雜誌它選列阿里山為台灣五大秘境那強調我們是雲海啊日出啊還有從日治時代到現在的這個檜木的歷史文化"},{"start":4828.103,"end":4852.978,"text":"他說阿里山是外國旅客除了台北之外最值得造訪的世外桃源那2025年也是今年的1月10號那在紐約時報也有公布2025年最值得去的52個地方那阿里山也是名列第19位那2024年10月那還有專文來介紹阿里山的這個神木的遺跡高山鐵道雲海日出等等那最近這一個這個升鐵"},{"start":4854.679,"end":4873.067,"text":"那重新請用那包含戴金德總統也還有行政院院長都有來嘉義我們一起來促進這些觀光我想請教一下外交部有沒有掌握這些近期的國際這些媒體對阿里山的正面報導有沒有考慮說讓邀請過去也有過2017年"},{"start":4877.028,"end":4892.177,"text":"現在跟過去2017年台灣的在國際的能見度是完全不一樣是增加很高的能見度所以我想請教一下有沒有儘速邀請駐台的使節包含眷屬來阿里山來參訪再一次來擴大辦理呢"},{"start":4892.952,"end":4911.702,"text":"如果我們一定會往這個方向來規劃那麼有的時候這個駐台的使節這個比較容易時間比較在都在這裡那麼另外說我國外的訪兵如果來台訪問那麼我們都會鼓勵他在台灣如果多留一下可以多看看那我們常提到是說這個阿里山的這個"},{"start":4914.564,"end":4936.705,"text":"這個阿里山跟蘭嶼這兩個是一個很好的應該要去訪問的地方那麼還有台南的這個台灣的這個最古老的那種文化傳承阿里山的這個山林之美那麼在這個蘭嶼的這個海洋之美我想這些地方我們都是希望能夠外國訪兵可以多探訪的地方"},{"start":4937.185,"end":4954.546,"text":"之後我們一定會安排這個駐台的使節去阿里山再去能夠去那邊看一看那麼了解台灣的這個很特別的地方配合今年這些重大的這些媒體的這些報導我覺得是可以好好的來去宣傳一波"},{"start":4955.046,"end":4980.88,"text":"那除了這個之外阿里山的森林鐵路也是我們台灣推展世界遺產的一個重要的潛力點那當然包含文化資產的保存法第11條之一要求政府繼續推動這個我國的世界遺產潛力點還有一些非物質文化遺產的潛力點等等的那我希望外交部也來全力協助好不好因為這個是已經不是我們嘉義我們的選區的這一個重要的一個"},{"start":4981.72,"end":5005.659,"text":"警官而已他甚至是具備台灣挑戰世界遺產的潛力點那我們這些能做的我們就把它再擴大辦理好不好一定那另外就是我們今天有提到原住民族那包含原住民原民會有邀請駐台使節來參與這個座主年度的大型祭典表示說這些跟其他國家的這些原住民族也有這個交流的可能性"},{"start":5006.099,"end":5024.449,"text":"所以這部分是不是也跟跨部會一起來協助協調當然那麼這也是我們部長的理念我們部長才在提到就是剛才所說的總和外交那我們也把這個原民外交能夠放在這個裡面第一個是推廣我們的原住民文化它的這個豐富跟它的美以及對於整個台灣"},{"start":5025.149,"end":5051.073,"text":"文化的這個豐富多樣性的一個充實這是一個命案第二個是說那麼像我們讓這個更多的原住民參與到這樣就好像剛才趙偉所提到的那麼很多時候我們在國際上面可能遇到一些困境但是從文化的角度從這個民族的角度切近我想是一個非常好的一個方向這我們就在總和的外交裡面我們都把它放在一起來思考"},{"start":5053.052,"end":5062.59,"text":"市長這個歐洲的這個勝利日是在幾月幾號歐洲的勝利日二戰的這個勝利日5月8號那今天是"},{"start":5063.57,"end":5091.819,"text":"今天是5月8號所以我們今天有規劃總統我規劃這個相關的活動對這是一個很重要的一個活動因為過去我們應該沒有這樣的潛力嘛對不對今年是因為是80年齁那麼他的意義比較重大那麼也在說說明了一個事情就是說其實這二次大戰的一個基因就是那麼侵略必敗嘛齁那麼這個這個各個國家那個民眾他的自發性的這個抵抗那麼我覺得這是一個意義重大的一個事情"},{"start":5092.579,"end":5111.894,"text":"對 意義重大的事情那中共它是長年去壟斷它二段的敘事就是它們的這種它們的敘事前把勝利歸功於是中共它自己但是事實上大家都知道在不管是整個對二次世界大戰對這個反抗極權的這一個努力來說的話基本上"},{"start":5113.033,"end":5132.965,"text":"中共基本上都是在國軍的後面所以透過這種類似用我們跟這個二戰勝利80週年的紀念活動把這個話語權拿回來對我國的敘事模式是非常重要的這個部分今天有沒有掌握大概我們會不會用什麼樣的方式去詮釋我們這個二戰勝利的意義"},{"start":5135.006,"end":5161.404,"text":"我們了解到今天這個總統會發表相關的演說那重新定義我們中華民國在整個二次世界大戰之中的一個地位尤其要再一次的提醒國際社會那麼在這個中國在土地上面領導這個軍民那麼去打贏的這個二次世界大戰是在這個中華民國政府的領導之下那麼中共就像剛才委員所說的"},{"start":5161.964,"end":5181.852,"text":"中共從那個時候的策略都講得很清楚,最重要是要保存實力,也要跟國民黨在鬥爭,我想這個東西必須要很清楚的做。今天我們注意到習近平在去莫斯科參加二次大戰勝利日的文章也指出了,"},{"start":5185.553,"end":5199.725,"text":"扭曲了這個歷史第一個是說當然是中華民國領導這樣的一個二次世界大戰這個中國地區的人民的軍民的這個反抗第二個很重要的是我們跟理念相近的國家結合一起的取得了這個勝利"},{"start":5200.575,"end":5224.706,"text":"好 謝謝次長 另外就是說最近包含美國的這些參眾議員的這些國會議員都有一再強調還有包含2758號決議文的中共的這個錯誤詮釋我覺得已經開始起到效果了 這已經有國際上面慢慢有創造出新的這個共識那過去他們想要用自己的敘事權來扭曲2758號決議文已經有 已經被我們相當程度的來去破解了"},{"start":5224.966,"end":5245.969,"text":"所以這部分也請次長跟這個外交部來一起去把這個2758號決定的物用物體來形成全球民主國家要聯手的一個修正錯誤認知的一個趨勢再來最後韌性台灣的論述我想次長應該有看到最近的一期的經濟選是在以台灣為封面"},{"start":5246.837,"end":5271.763,"text":"那我要講一件事情就是說當我們講到以色列的時候我們會不會覺得說他怎麼一直都面對著這一個很多的這種周圍國家的挑戰你會覺得他是一個風險很大你就會覺得他是一個很危險的一個地方嗎還是你會覺得以色列是一個有能力面對這些挑戰有能力面對這些風險可以管理這些風險還可以運用自己的科技來去反制這些風險的一個國家"},{"start":5273.325,"end":5297.591,"text":"我想委員說得很正確就是說其實以色列一直被當成是一個在強靈還世的情況之下能夠那麼自詡保持自己自身的獨立那麼能夠面臨到任何的因應任何的挑戰包括您所說的就是總體的這個國力科技等等的這的確是台灣的模範我們也希望台灣之後會被人家看到那這也是說在這個賴總統的帶領之下"},{"start":5299.711,"end":5321.243,"text":"在這個內容的帶領之下我們要增加韌性台灣要增加國防要能夠全社會韌性這種種的東西我們希望讓人家知道我們是一個能夠堅持我們的國際地位堅持我們的國家主權堅持我們的民主生活方式的一個國家所以說你們要特別是外交部就必須要把這個論述講清楚"},{"start":5321.863,"end":5349.809,"text":"就是說我們不會否認風險的存在但我們不是一個被動等待風險的一個受害者而是一個能夠管理風險然後來去面對風險然後來去可以面對強權的時候還能夠有韌性去定謀的一個力量這個論述外交部要趕快統整好 跨國部會統整好好 謝謝謝謝陳冠廷委員的諮詢接下來有徐巧欣委員上台諮詢"},{"start":5359.223,"end":5362.786,"text":"謝謝主席那我們有請這個外交部的次長委員好"},{"start":5370.67,"end":5389.555,"text":"你好,那對於這個教皇的離開,我想大家都感到非常的難過,因為這個梵蒂岡是我們在歐洲的唯一而且重要的友邦。那我想要詢問這次教皇的喪禮,為何我們的賴總統是沒有辦法出席的?"},{"start":5392.659,"end":5414.33,"text":"第一個是基於陳前副總統陳建仁是教廷的長期這邊然後他跟教宗有非常密切的關係我們跟教廷協調了之後畢竟他們是因為教宗逝世他們是主要的"},{"start":5416.351,"end":5440.826,"text":"我們大概講的就是商家尊重他的一個意願尊重對方的意願然後能夠有給我們好的一個安排所以對方認為說尊重他們的意願是陳建仁前總統、副總統去而不是我們的賴金德總統去嗎因為呢當時2005年我們教宗這個《若望保祿二世事事》的時候是由前總統陳水扁總統到梵蒂岡參加追思彌撒的"},{"start":5446.169,"end":5464.363,"text":"那所以呢那當時都有報導說呢這次的出訪簽證到通關都讓這個義大利政府的最高得到這樣子的領域因為他也有過境的這樣子的一個狀況那我想要問說為什麼這一次那就只有層級上比過去還要來的低"},{"start":5465.723,"end":5488.091,"text":"我想應該不能夠這樣看啦 層級上面齁 那麼這是一個國家的象徵第二個 但是它是一個宗教的一個國家齁 那麼梵蒂岡 所以是說我們有沒有提出說我們希望賴總統去 還是說我們也沒有做這樣的提議我覺得這個是都是由總統來決定齁 這個由誰他自己或是由這個他指派的誰來當代表 這個決定權是在總統"},{"start":5490.9,"end":5509.836,"text":"所以你不確定總統有沒有提出他希望可以參加喪禮他也有可能他提出來就是不希望參加由陳建仁去就好了我相信這都是在雙方的一個好的溝通互動的協調裡面是嗎那陳建仁在擔任特使那請問他有沒有見到川普總統本人呢"},{"start":5511.603,"end":5530.204,"text":"據我們的這個媒體的掌握是沒有沒有那只有跟前總統拜登合照是那麼這次是否跟美國前總統合影你們認為叫做重要的外交突破那如果是的話為什麼我們在新聞稿裡面呢是沒有提到的"},{"start":5532.711,"end":5553.825,"text":"您說說我們不會把教宗的喪禮當成是一個純粹外交的堂合跟前總統拜登的合影那變成是說我們在外交上有重要的突破這跟所謂的出席喪禮是不一樣兩件事情"},{"start":5555.166,"end":5582.677,"text":"我們是跟這個陳前副總統代表總統主席之後可是你上面都有提到啦我們跟巴拉圭然後呢其他的這個部長啊我們都有交流之意啊所以如果您說您看齁如果您你看這是我們的新聞稿啊然後我們有哀悼之意嘛然後叫停統計嘛有多少人去嘛陳特使抵達的時候呢引導然後呢跟哪一些人都有見面之外呢還有跟巴拉圭的眾議長"},{"start":5584.378,"end":5588.459,"text":"然後伉儷瓜地馬拉文化系體育部長及邦交國及有盟國家代表交流之意所以跟您剛剛講的是不一樣的啊您剛剛說我們因為去參加這是人家的喪禮所以我們不會把這個跟對方可能有其他的國家有合影啊或者是有互動啊寫出來"},{"start":5608.226,"end":5632.895,"text":"可是不對啊我們的新聞稿上面就寫了我們跟巴拉圭以及瓜地馬拉這樣子互相交流之意的部分但是我們見了這個拜登前總統卻完全沒有提到為什麼會這樣為什麼會要做這樣的決定呢沒有沒有我覺得這個事情不是這樣就是說我們是自然的互動然後我們那跟拜登總統就不自然嗎"},{"start":5633.988,"end":5640.655,"text":"很自然啊很自然嘛對啊所以自然所以我們有照片也有照片露出啊欸不是啊我就問嘛為什麼我們的新聞稿沒有發"},{"start":5642.475,"end":5661.263,"text":"的原因 理由是什麼啊就是你們因為你剛剛告訴我說你們沒有發的原因在於你們沒有發的原因在於這是人家的這個告別式所以呢我們所有的這一些跟其他的友邦也都不會寫出來可是沒有啊你們新聞稿上有寫啊所以你剛剛說的並不是實話啊那所以說既然今天有跟這個這個我們拜登前總統合照那為什麼不放呢"},{"start":5673.014,"end":5701.093,"text":"我想一個照片應該說明了很多的事情是嗎那新聞稿沒有寫那又說明了什麼呢好有2013年我們方濟哥就職的時候前總統馬英九也到了梵蒂岡觀禮在教廷人員引導之下呢一起見到這個我們的教宗然後呢有熱情的握手好那在這個就職儀式上面馬英九前總統被安排在第一排的位置那我再請問喔"},{"start":5702.134,"end":5727.51,"text":"接下來他們正在進行改選請問賴清德總統會不會到梵蒂岡我們盡力的盡全力來跟對方協調但是那個現在教廷最重要的事情並不是來處理這個外交的疑解而是要先透過書密會議選出新的教宗我當然知道啊但我問的是接下來因為前面我告訴你啊那前面呢這個是陳前總統喔"},{"start":5729.972,"end":5746.102,"text":"那他呢都會去參加了這樣子的一個喪禮然後呢這個呢上任新的教宗呢前馬總統呢也都有去那問題是這樣子兩次的就是說如果說這個告別式的部分那我們"},{"start":5748.124,"end":5764.277,"text":"這個我們的賴總統沒有去那呢人家新任的教宗上任了之後我們也沒有去會不會覺得那中間是發生了什麼樣的事情導致於導致於說都沒有辦法參加是我們不願意去參加還是別人沒讓我們參加"},{"start":5765.837,"end":5783.214,"text":"跟委員報告 這個還牽涉到是說其實總統他的行程的安排那麼他的這個整個總統的安排行程的安排有比參加這個重要嗎他有什麼行程是賴總統是有什麼行程是比參加我們的友邦教皇的這個告別式還要來得重要的"},{"start":5784.335,"end":5804.041,"text":"我想不透欸我們 鮑偉勇我們一定全力的爭取跟對方的協調能夠促成適當的由總統指派或是總統親自出席這個我們一定會全力的來拍對啊 那你們都說全力會了那可是我們在教皇喪禮上面那就沒有看到這個賴總統嘛所以賴總統沒有去是派我們的這個副總統去陳副總統去是因為他行程太忙"},{"start":5813.922,"end":5823.603,"text":"我想這個總統沒有告訴我們他的考量是什麼我們雙方一定是有好的協調那你們好的協調那是不是請問義大利有沒有反對"},{"start":5825.567,"end":5845.026,"text":"義大利沒有義大利那個教廷這還是主要是跟教廷的這個互動你們因為但是會經過義大利嗎對一定會經過義大利對啊所以我問的是義大利有沒有反對義大利有沒有跟你們協調我們主要還是跟教廷協調之後再來跟這個義大利協調所以嘛我問了我想是包括我問了嘛義大利部分"},{"start":5845.626,"end":5859.898,"text":"有沒有反對沒有反對沒有聽說沒有聽說所以完全就是因為賴清德總統他自己有行程所以沒有參加不是 我也不是這樣說我想是總統有他的來決定所以總統決定不參加的"},{"start":5861.829,"end":5883.698,"text":"總統覺得是說陳前總統陳前副總統跟教宗的實際的這個有個人的情誼本身又是天主教徒非常受到教廷的重視我想這是一個陳前副總統是一個尊重商家的決定但是問題是賴總統如果去的話成績更高啊"},{"start":5884.656,"end":5904.532,"text":"那當然都很好那我覺得就是說總統有他的一個想法跟他的決定那所以說未來我們如果說選出新的教宗也一樣是派陳前副總統去賴清德總統身為這個很重要的我們的歐洲的友邦結果呢他都不去參加因為他行程很忙然後他認為說這個呢這個陳前副總統那跟這個教宗然後跟教廷比較熟就派他去那問題是這樣子的話對我們國家的友邦"},{"start":5914.94,"end":5935.175,"text":"當然我知道陳前副總統他跟梵蒂岡他是天主教的那是有好的關係但是更重要的是我們如果是賴總統去的話他的層級更高能夠代表我們中華民國去致意那是更重要而且更讓對方感受到這是我們友邦"},{"start":5935.755,"end":5942.058,"text":"這一定是如此的嘛所以我才會覺得說為什麼第一個我再把問題講一次那時間到了也不用特別回答就是第一個為什麼我們的賴總統是不是自己去參加而是呢請了我們陳前副總統去參加第二個我們在過程當中呢總統是怎麼樣去決策的是行程太忙還是受到什麼樣的一個打壓"},{"start":5960.726,"end":5967.891,"text":"第三個前面的包含是陳前總統就是陳水扁總統以及馬英九總統都有親自到了這個梵蒂岡那為什麼我們到現在我們的賴總統都沒有去過再來呢跟拜登拍照前總統拜登拍照為什麼我們沒有放在我們的新聞稿裡面而是放了其他的一些我們的友邦的互動最後我們也要強調的是那接下來接下來"},{"start":5988.624,"end":6008.83,"text":"如果教宗選出來之後我們要到就職的官裡那到底是賴清的總統他去或是不去那我們當然都希望賴清的總統可以爭取去而不是像這次這樣子我知道陳前副總統他跟教宗他跟這些梵蒂岡的官員是非常親近的"},{"start":6009.85,"end":6022.84,"text":"但是他身為我們的友邦我國的元首出席那是更重要的一件事情所以我們也希望就是說呢我們能夠在接下來的這個官裡的部分因為總是會選出來嘛那還有一段時間選出來官裡的時候我們是由賴總統親自到"},{"start":6029.125,"end":6052.777,"text":"而不是說呢哎呀我行程很忙那所以呢就沒辦法去就再請別人那因為我覺得你呢你們比較熟我就請你去不是的梵蒂岡是我們在歐洲重要的友邦應該由我們的元首出席這才是我們中華民國對梵蒂岡最大的敬重所以我希望外交部可以有機會的話也要跟總統溝通這一點"},{"start":6055.638,"end":6079.35,"text":"不是說因為你跟他們很熟就這樣不是我們是元首代表中華民國到梵蒂岡跟我們的友邦致意無論是喪禮或者是觀禮都是一樣的所以我們希望能夠外交部能夠促成這樣子的一個行程才能展示出我們對於梵蒂岡作為一個友邦的最高重視謝謝謝謝謝小新的資訊接下來有馬文金上台資訊"},{"start":6094.948,"end":6096.774,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請次長沒關係 慢慢喝"},{"start":6106.505,"end":6116.85,"text":"市長好市長今天我們特別在外交部的議題上面可是剛剛也有委員關切到就是包括2758號決議的這個部分其實它對我們來說其實影響是非常大"},{"start":6126.415,"end":6154.746,"text":"看到索馬利亞民航局在4月底的時候他通告索馬利亞政府根據聯合國大會第2758號決議堅持一個中國的原則通知所有航空公司的營運商還有就是所有由台灣或其附屬機構所簽發的護照跟相關的旅行證件他都不得再用於進出及過境索馬利亞的聯邦"},{"start":6155.782,"end":6171.1,"text":"也就是說它禁止持台灣護照入境或過境外交部對此事其實已經有提出強烈譴責而且也要求立即撤銷禁令也呼籲我們國人暫務前往索馬利亞跟索馬利蘭"},{"start":6172.882,"end":6202.066,"text":"那就我們跟索馬利蘭在2020年7月的時候我們已經有互設代表處然後其實在這過程當中我們也捐助了一些糧食還有其他的可能一些資源我們有協助興建台灣大道那現在發生這樣的事情我們目前要怎麼因應除了我們去抗議或者要求他撤銷禁令那他如果不願意呢那我們目前住管的人員有多少"},{"start":6205.562,"end":6232.968,"text":"你回答一下委員好我們目前在那邊駐館人員包含我們技術團跟那個對在索馬利蘭原則大概20位左右包含技術團及醫療團的人員那他們現在可以自由進出嗎他目前的話呢因為他目前都還沒有進出的這樣子需求那我們因為這個事情是在發生在4月底的時候目前跟我們一些理念相關的還有索馬利蘭政府我們共同的一直在解決這個問題希望可以進出有一個比較好的一個結果"},{"start":6233.408,"end":6251.966,"text":"因為他現在限制我們使用我們的護照那會是很大的麻煩而且我們也互設了這樣子的代表處所以他今天這樣的作為他雖然現在還沒有立即可能要離開這樣子的需求可是他遲早一定要回來那就這個部分我們希望可以有更積極的作為那"},{"start":6253.087,"end":6273.144,"text":"要怎麼樣去維護他們的權益跟安全這個可能因為也剛發生可是我們特別提到這個部分我們也希望就這個我們接下來也一起討論好了因為近期如果有什麼樣的進展再提供給我們我知道美方可能也有一些動作可是能夠達到什麼樣的效果我們不知道"},{"start":6275.202,"end":6294.568,"text":"我們相信應該是會有效果的那麼我們當然也跟這個索馬利亞表達強烈的一個抗議尤其是遺憾的是他們錯誤的去扭曲解釋2758號決議文然後用這樣以為理由來禁止我們持有我國的護照的這個民眾"},{"start":6295.128,"end":6299.089,"text":"經過這個索馬利亞進出索馬利蘭那這是一個遺憾的事情剛剛提到這樣子因為我們在國內我們怎麼樣去譴責或者我們要去訴求其實都沒有用因為事實上它不斷的在發生就像之前南非我們本來也是設代表處後來"},{"start":6313.394,"end":6320.198,"text":"把它降成經濟文化辦事處這個也是因為他們大概也是以2758號決議這個來做決定的另外有很多我們參與國際組織的障礙大概也都是因為這樣包括國際刑警組織過去我們也曾經以中華民國的名義其實曾經是正式會員"},{"start":6334.605,"end":6339.247,"text":"可是後來被排除了那還有國際民航組織還有世界衛生組織等等我們至少在WHA其實我們也曾經還是觀察員可是現在什麼都不是所以在我們就這些發生的事情"},{"start":6353.58,"end":6378.719,"text":"顯然大家沒有辦法去同時去認可2758號決議的這個部分所以就這個發生的這些我只是舉例那其他還有更多因為我們面對國際非常多的國家大概都是以這個他們自己國家的解釋我們沒有辦法去改變那對我們來說就會線索越來越大影響越來越深而且我們可能也會受到更多的一些傷害"},{"start":6380.26,"end":6388.181,"text":"那在4月底的時候美國在聯合國安理會會議中他就2758號決議美中在對此有激烈的辯論代表這個議題其實在安理會至少被實質討論而不是只有在每年的聯合國大會裡面靠友邦或者友好國家的發言支持而已這可能也是開啟我們能否參與國際組織實質的第一步這是其中一個另外"},{"start":6409.465,"end":6430.945,"text":"在去年5月巴勒斯坦在聯合國會議會員的聯合國會員議題上面也被聯合國大會以壓倒性的多數通過決議雖然最後認定他符合聯合國憲章應該是要被接納雖然最後這個案子被安理會否決可是至少巴勒斯坦"},{"start":6432.346,"end":6440.452,"text":"獲得了國際上普遍的一個支持跟認定這是他們努力的結果我們很希望如果我們可以得到國際的認可這個還有很多要努力的方向就我們剛剛提到的一個就美國在安理會的這個部分他們做了實質的討論那我們不要每年都是只計算多少友邦幫我們發言然後我們不斷的在原地踏步另外還有一個就是"},{"start":6461.026,"end":6474.117,"text":"日前美國眾議院他通過台灣國際團結法案那在這個部分他強調2758號決議沒有處理台灣或台灣人民在聯合國或相關組織的代表權問題他們現在主張是這樣可是這個在"},{"start":6480.462,"end":6499.61,"text":"過去2023年吧他們也曾經通過對不對後來他沒有成為正式的法案是為什麼因為既然美國這麼支持我們眾議院也通過了可是他也沒有成為正式的一個可以執行的法案那時候是為什麼那你現在又提出來他不會面對同樣的問題嗎那我們請北美司來回答一下"},{"start":6505.031,"end":6524.318,"text":"那我以為那個美國國會的立法它必須要透過就是它一個法案必須要是從這個要參院跟這種兩院都要通過要這種生效2023年你講那個它應該是一個決議案啦決議案基本上是它不是沒有法律拘束力的這樣所以其實那個並不是說有沒有這個生效的問題這樣子"},{"start":6525.498,"end":6529.94,"text":"因為就是他提出來他們也希望也是一樣通過那就跟現在一樣那當然還需要參議院然後最後還要總統他支持通過他可能才可以執行可是如果我們一直重複在這些動作剛剛我們講的其實2758號對我們所有的線索越來越嚴重"},{"start":6545.006,"end":6570.647,"text":"包括我們在民航組織裡面其實我們現在很多航空公司已經把我們的名稱全部都改掉了越來越矮化可是我們也拿他們一點辦法都沒有包括過去其實甚至在川普總統第一任的時候他對於中方這樣的要求其實他是有強力去抗衡的可是現在還是全部都被改掉了那我們有什麼樣因應的做法"},{"start":6571.167,"end":6585.563,"text":"因為他都改成中國台北我們還是一樣結合理念也跟委員報告像剛才您所說的這個眾院通過了一個非具有強制力的這樣的一個決議文之後我們也看到了"},{"start":6586.404,"end":6614.296,"text":"雖然他沒有變成一個法案他本來就是設計是這個樣子但重點是在於是說我們看到在聯合國那個上面的時候美國的代表美國的這個政治參事就像您這上面所說的這個吳庭他也很正式的來在上面表達美國的一個立場然後在美國的行政單位也多次的表達他們對2758他們的詮釋他們的立場其實是跟眾院參院所提出來的決議文是接近的所以這是我們的努力的話"},{"start":6614.716,"end":6616.657,"text":"還有更多的國家因為時間的關係我覺得不用用文字上的敘述我們要的是實質的結果就像我們為什麼特別提巴勒斯坦來做一個對照其實主要就是這樣因為你今天如果已經有"},{"start":6632.721,"end":6658.477,"text":"這樣子的一個方向那可以做到什麼樣的程度因為你要受到國際普遍的認同我們現在是越來越限縮它不像是有被更認可的一個現象發生所以這是我們現在困境這也是外交部要努力的部分不然我們編了那麼多的預算我想在重要的這個部分其實它是沒有被山東預算這個部分如果要把它做到更好這個才是一個好的成績好不好"},{"start":6659.818,"end":6684.426,"text":"好 謝謝委員的鼓勵 這也是我們外交部的未來努力的方向後續的進度 剛好我們講的蘇瑪麗蘭這個部分可能提供一些書面 比如說現在應該要怎麼做那會有什麼樣的一個因應的措施我們現在在那裡的人員包括技術團還有我們的駐在的一些相關的人員他們的處置方式提供書面資料 謝謝"},{"start":6687.861,"end":6690.703,"text":"謝謝馬文君的質詢 接下來由沈伯陽召委質詢謝謝主席 有請次長"},{"start":6713.267,"end":6727.69,"text":"因為這次今天的題目是跟這些南島國家南島於西的國家有關所以我先稍微問幾個小細節但是在這個之前剛好昨天發生了一件事情就是德國在台協會有特別發文針對國民黨的主席去指控對方是納粹這樣的用語"},{"start":6735.672,"end":6747.324,"text":"那我覺得說真的啦大家對外都是要一致所以這雖然這是一個國民黨的行為但畢竟這是一個等於是德國在野協會等於是一個外交上他們提出這樣的一個譴責那我們應該用什麼樣的態度來回應"},{"start":6748.476,"end":6772.217,"text":"那麼想說德國在戰後對於他們自己過去這個侵略別的國家那麼對內發展這個極權統治然後壓迫國內民眾深刻的一個反省這個我想這個應該是世界的一個共識那麼昨天的這個德國在台協會也說不要做一個不當的類比我想這也是一個很好的呼籲當然我們沒有"},{"start":6773.178,"end":6794.441,"text":"這個透過這個東西來介入到這個國內的政黨之間的競爭或者他們互相的一些這個說法但我覺得是說對於就外交的這個觀點來看的時候那麼我們尊重別的國家歷史尤其一個國家能夠深刻的反省他們過去的侵略的行為他們過去的這個獨裁統治我覺得這是我們要必須尊重的地方"},{"start":6795.081,"end":6822.436,"text":"對 因為我覺得這件事情畢竟它就是一個我覺得算是一個外交事件那我現在覺得比較困擾的地方就是說像我前陣子在接待這些外賓的時候他們也會問說那為什麼你們在這個立法院的黨編會說你是美國的間諜那因為他這樣講好像把美國當作是一個很負面的名詞那今天這個等於是國民黨的主席在用這樣的一個詞語的時候其實在當然是在外交上面我認為當然是一定是不當啦但是我們要怎麼去解釋說現在台灣產生這樣的一個現象"},{"start":6824.977,"end":6847.955,"text":"為什麼會有這一個國會的最大黨然後會用這樣的方式來指責有時候我們可能還是需要一個對其他國家的一個完整的說明因為我覺得當然我們可以講說這是一個政治上的對方在攻防但我覺得就是說台灣在尤其是這個歷史脈絡尤其這五六年以來到底為什麼這樣的一個用詞可能變多了那我們應該要怎麼去做因為這個最早期這些用語都是中國在講的"},{"start":6848.975,"end":6867.238,"text":"中國很愛用這些什麼納粹、蓋世太保等等的用語所以就是說這種因素是怎麼進入到台灣社會今天我覺得其實我們也是可以去做一個說明讓國外的人知道現在台灣產生的一個現象小小的建議因為回到今天的題目因為今天題目最主要還是這個"},{"start":6868.789,"end":6892.798,"text":"我們的這個南島語系相關的一個國家那第一個呢這也是最近的一個新聞就是說這個中國對帛琉的滲透手法的一個系統化就是說那這個當然因為是我們的邦交國他想要去爭取想要去滲透這個所在多有但我想要問的反而是另外一個就是我想次長也應該知道我們之前都有在做這一個所謂的中國滲透指數是那我稍微在這個review的過程當中我就發現這個"},{"start":6897.181,"end":6915.698,"text":"這個以新加坡、馬來西亞、印尼等等這些國家為例這個印尼的排名在我們的指數裡面開始往前了然後即使其他的國家看起來稍微掉了一點比如說馬來西亞等等但是其他的分數其實都還是很高所以我把它幾個稍微做了一下盤點這個今天有點蕩蕩的"},{"start":6918.56,"end":6941.539,"text":"第一個呢這個是印尼的部分那個比較深顏色的那個圈圈是這一次那比較淡顏色的那一個紅色呢是上一次2022啦也就是說這兩年之內呢印尼呢在那個中國對印尼的影響力軍事還有一般的這種社會比如說像TikTok的使用等等之類還有在學術它就變得比較強了那另外呢我們再看到這個"},{"start":6943.438,"end":6967.993,"text":"這個新加坡新加坡反而是媒體的影響變強我覺得這是一個警訊然後最後呢我記得這邊有列了馬來西亞就是馬來西亞是在軍事然後還有在這一個媒體之內都變多了然後還有科技所以就是說呢像他們這種滲透尤其是在這幾個說真的對我們來講也都是要爭取的國家那這個都有在特定的幾個面向增強那這個針對這一點外交部有沒有什麼策略"},{"start":6969.145,"end":6990.458,"text":"當然我們這個就整個的媒體我想重要的東西對於FIMI那麼剛才委員所提到像對於媒體對於各界的這個進行的這種滲透的這樣的一個事情或是透過影響力作戰來進行的這種對於他的這個認知的這個形塑那麼我們一定要提供一個另外一個另類的論述"},{"start":6991.138,"end":7012.591,"text":"我們希望能夠分享我們怎麼樣子在台灣能夠去跟這個外國的這個影響力的這個作戰能夠對抗的過程我想這個很多的單位在做我們政府也結合了民間的一個力量同時他也是在我們全社會任性的這個考量裡面那麼希望能夠透過我們的公司合作透過我們的外交上面的交換的關係"},{"start":7013.672,"end":7038.549,"text":"也跟委員報告是說這是一個完整的東西包括從智庫包括從為學者學術的交流到政府的這個組織的互動我們希望能夠來跟這個友邦在這上面理念相近的國家能夠有好的一個互動能夠共同的來對抗這個中國在這個地方進行的這個認知作戰以這個菲律賓為例那麼他們非常重視這樣的一個問題他們也尋求跟我們能夠"},{"start":7040.23,"end":7068.931,"text":"經驗分享那麼菲律賓我們剛才不在這個委員的這個提到這個裡面來說他們也面對到非常多的這個媒體的這個滲透那麼有利於這個大陸的這樣的一個言論的一個形塑那麼像在您所提到的馬來西亞這個印尼跟這個新加坡那都會面對到同樣的一個問題我想這個透過公司公司協力透過這樣的很好多層次的一個互動我們希望大家能夠共同面對到這樣"},{"start":7069.711,"end":7087.626,"text":"但做最後面來說的話,一個還是一個他們的執政的想法,他們選擇跟誰站得比較近。第二個是我們很願意跟他們的各個層面的交流,如果說他們的執政黨對於這個東西比較不重視的話,我們希望能夠跟他們的民間社會跟他們的學術界能夠有多的互動。"},{"start":7088.106,"end":7104.344,"text":"對我覺得跟民間的交流真的很重要因為我覺得像這個軍事的增強外交部大概不太能做什麼啦但是譬如說媒體的部分假如他們媒體的滲透變多就表示他們在當地接收資訊的時候可能中國的資訊就變多了這也是說真的就是過去台灣就是我剛剛前面那個問題過去台灣這個"},{"start":7106.526,"end":7135.425,"text":"幾年以來中國的資訊在台灣變得非常非常的多所以才會像那種中國像納粹啊什麼等等的用語真的是非常滲透到我們整個台灣人對於這個彼此之間的攻擊那其他的國家也可能會有面臨一樣的狀況因為它等於中國的媒體變多嘛那我們在做這一個總和外交的時候我們非常強調像剛剛提到智庫啊學者啊等等的交流但是就是對於一般人民這一個部分我就好幾次在這一個外交部的質詢都一再的強調就是因為"},{"start":7136.566,"end":7155.455,"text":"因為剛剛我們講的這幾個媒體的中國滲透的加強他們的人民會被影響那我們要怎麼去反過來能夠去影響他們也會變得非常的重要不然他們就偏聽嘛他們可能就只會聽其中一邊的聲音那我們的聲音會變少那這當然跟我們的預算有很大的關係啦但是無論如何就是要怎麼去加強這一塊我覺得應該是最重要的"},{"start":7156.275,"end":7171.336,"text":"我們最近在跟外館的這個溝通互動上面我也請他們特別注意到有關於這個所謂的社群媒體上面我們是不是能夠找一些網紅能夠比較是客觀中立的網紅然後把我們的資料提供給他們"},{"start":7172.137,"end":7196.921,"text":"但是事實上有的時候就是說在社交媒體上面的這個空間畢竟很多的網紅還是有他的流量的一個需求還有他的一個可能有一些精神的考慮那這個方面因為的確像委員所說的我們很多的預算比較有困難所以我們希望我也鼓勵我們的外館能夠用比較有創意的做法比如說找"},{"start":7197.601,"end":7213.001,"text":"更多的網紅來報導我們的這個活動這個東西我們在這個努力加強對 因為我覺得齁這個內容的本身應該是非常的重要因為中國在砸這樣的東西的時候它的錢會越砸越多那如果我們跟它變成一種金錢上的軍備競賽我看大概也是贏不了"},{"start":7213.582,"end":7240.07,"text":"所以就是說外館在這件事情上面要怎麼多多去跟當地的NGO合作因為這個NGO有動能那NGO的動能它可能雖然只佔當地的社會不到百分之一但是它是能夠常常上街頭的它講話可能會有對人民的說服力我覺得這方面的加強可能甚至會比學者來得更為重要那麼我們就遵照委員的指導我們在加強跟公民社會的互動上面"},{"start":7240.41,"end":7267.682,"text":"我們也請我們這個台灣的公民社會團體關心這個問題的公民團體包括增加媒體嗜讀提升媒體嗜讀的公民團體一起來合作努力對然後這個我剛好就連結到不好意思再給我30秒就是說呢我們看到我外交部有這個海外青年宣傳的先鋒人才啦那這先鋒人才其實是對對方對方的那個人才來做培育我覺得這個應該就是可以加強的部分因為他們很有可能他的出身本身他可能就是NGO然後呢他又有動人"},{"start":7268.422,"end":7286,"text":"然後如果他能夠進入這樣的一個專案他就能夠在當地對於我們台灣到底現在在國際社會的處境我們台灣目前主張的這個民主的價值有多重要啊為什麼我們在對抗中國這樣遏止的這樣的一個侵略其實這個對他們來講在這樣的一個專案裡面我認為是應該可以再往下發展"},{"start":7286.431,"end":7309.967,"text":"我們完全認同,那麼事實上就好像以今天的這個主題,原住民外交為例那麼我們也找了很多特別很多的太平洋島國的青年領袖來台灣一段時間跟我們的公民社會團體,跟外交部,跟我們的政府,跟我們的民意代表能夠互動,能夠提升就像剛才委員所說,我們不太可能跟他玩金錢遊戲"},{"start":7311.388,"end":7337.324,"text":"那麼中國的這個整個的經濟量體那麼大他可以做這個很多用黨活的力量我們希望能夠建構跟這個民間社會跟這個社區領袖未來的社區領袖之間緊密的關係我們在我常常提到是說如果他們在做一帶一路這些大的這種土木工程的話那麼我們希望能夠增加他的苛責性有公民社會的accountability是我們能夠著重的重點"},{"start":7338.024,"end":7365.795,"text":"對啦 因為我覺得像今天排這個題目它之所以還有一個重要性就是原民來講說真的這個因為中國現在對原民也是做出很多的動作他們嘗試要把原住民做重新的定義嘛而且是對台灣的原住民做重新的定義那如果我們這邊沒有一個相對應的對策它應該就不是單純原民會的事情了它應該會是跟外交部有關的因為它這個定義是要對其他的國際社會說我能夠去定義台灣的原住民這個對我們來講是危險的是 這非常重要的問題那我想說"},{"start":7367.435,"end":7388.206,"text":"這個中國人看跟我們這邊看原住民的事情是不一樣他們是用所謂的少數民族對我們來說原住民不是少數民族原住民是這個地方他的原來的主人那麼說面臨到後來的社會的變遷所以我們對於原住民看著他的地位他是原來的這個地方的主人跟他說"},{"start":7388.686,"end":7410.511,"text":"它只是一個少數的一個必要所以我們也希望在國際上面能夠結合有同樣的想法的這個國家或者是民間公民社會的領袖原住民的這個領袖原住民的這個社群一起來Promote這樣的一個概念好 那謝謝市長 謝謝縣長 謝謝主席謝謝沈榮亮召委的資訊接下來有林楚英委員上台資訊"},{"start":7413.635,"end":7435.306,"text":"在上海執行之前 待會王定宇委員執行完畢之後休息五分鐘謝謝主席 有請陳正次委員好"},{"start":7435.831,"end":7460.483,"text":"你好 早安 正是我要延續剛剛沈伯陽委員的話題就是有關於昨天這個中國國民黨的主席朱立倫因為用不當的類比把這個台灣目前的政治跟希特勒來做惡意的連結以至於在昨天晚上的時候德國在台協會很罕見的是在下班時間而且用英文原文的方式直接點名批判來看一下下一張這個是個最新的圖片"},{"start":7465.442,"end":7490.8,"text":"我必須要講法國在台協會也連結了德國在台協會他們的聲明荷蘭在台協會也連結了德國在台協會的聲明剛剛我特別去看了一下還有另外歐洲經貿辦事處其實也在昨天晚上連結了德國在台協會的聲明我不知道外交部有沒有看到這些連結"},{"start":7491.963,"end":7517.013,"text":"有有是我必須要強調這有可能形成一個外交災難我為什麼這樣講因為過去在立法院當中國民黨每一次都對外強調他們佔有60%的民意言下之意這一個一直強調自己擁有60%民意的在野黨正在引發外交危機因為"},{"start":7518.353,"end":7539.539,"text":"從德國到法國再到荷蘭再到剛剛我看到的歐洲經貿辦事處我知道身為外交人員是國家的你們剛剛包括您的回答都說這個是別的政黨的政爭但是我現在給你看到的是外交部要動起來喔"},{"start":7541.159,"end":7557.465,"text":"這個顯然已經引發了歐洲其他國家的不滿因為對於歐洲的民眾來說這是一段慘痛的歷史當他們被惡意的扭曲跟曲解而且是一個自稱在台灣擁有60%民意支持的政黨的時候這個會不會是跟國際社會說台灣有60%的民意同意這樣的講法"},{"start":7568.128,"end":7590.398,"text":"這會不會形成一個新的外交災難尤其是在現在此時此刻是一個歐戰結束80週年的時刻尤其是在歐戰結束80週年這個時刻我想大家都應該要稍微重新來這個審視一下這樣的一個歷史那麼這樣的一個侵略者侵略國家別的國家"},{"start":7591.438,"end":7612.005,"text":"在國內極權壓迫造成了很多傷痛的事情人類也為此經歷了一個世界大戰 死傷無數我想我們必須要嚴肅的來面對到這樣的一個問題我們是希望不會造成其他的外交的災難外交部也會盡全力來跟其他的"},{"start":7613.426,"end":7630.561,"text":"這個國外駐台的這個辦事處能夠說明這個絕非台灣的主流的一個民意同時我們也會跟其他的部會結合加強台灣民眾那麼尤其是年輕的人對於這個歷史的一個正確的認識正確的一個解讀"},{"start":7631.141,"end":7636.542,"text":"好我覺得這非常重要本席也不認同國民黨擁有台灣60%的民意的支持更不認同這個是一個台灣60%民意所會講出來的話台灣人民沒有像他們這樣這麼沒有歷史常識但是這個確實是一個非常危險的事情喔因為"},{"start":7650.426,"end":7667.272,"text":"對於外交部來講最近真的很忙啦來下一張本席其實發現外交部現在對於我們國內不斷的有造謠的情況發生比如像昨天外交部必須要及時來澄清就是有關於這個美台談判當中沒有涉及匯率"},{"start":7668.012,"end":7684.125,"text":"那這個部分呢都是外銷轉內銷直接引發國內的恐慌或者是製造事端那麼另外就是在更早之前國民黨的前立委蔡正元不時指控日本前防衛副大臣中山泰秀"},{"start":7685.166,"end":7698.476,"text":"然後去造謠這個無中生有的事情來抹黑賴清德總統我看到外交部也都第一時間有澄清這個我予以肯定但是其實本席也發現就是鄭次您過去也在國防院當任過執行長你也當過國安會的諮詢委員"},{"start":7701.918,"end":7722.524,"text":"在這樣的過程當中,我必須要提醒的是從剛剛的希特勒的說法,我不知道你有沒有注意過在2024年的6月12號海峽之聲就曾經用標題說越來越多的證據表明賴清德正在向希特勒靠攏我想你一定知道海峽之聲是一個什麼樣的媒體是,當然,這是中國的統戰媒體"},{"start":7725.885,"end":7748.772,"text":"而且也是跟解放軍有密切的關係所以本席其實要提醒的是在這麼多的國際的亂局當中這個如果也包含著中共聯手內外夾擊一方面中國在國際上面要前置台灣的聲音包括現在外交部你們知道嘛114年度的對外宣傳的總預算是被在野黨砍到一毛不剩"},{"start":7749.693,"end":7763.833,"text":"當中國在對外發聲而我們國內又有在野黨或者是有心人士在跟中國協同作戰的時候這個時候就變成是外交危機或是外交必須要有所警醒喔鄭次有沒有觀察"},{"start":7764.955,"end":7783.552,"text":"有,那麼也跟委員報告,如果容我再稍微說一下那麼在這個俄國侵略烏克蘭之前也是用同樣的一個說法那麼指控一個猶太背景的一個總統是納粹那我想這是一個非常不好的一個說法"},{"start":7783.732,"end":7811.852,"text":"而且是說用這樣的一個說法這個尤其是用海峽之聲這樣的一種管道來指控那麼我們的總統不時的指控我們總統我覺得是不是釋放出一種什麼樣的一個特別的訊息我們會非常的小心第二個是說我們也會跟這個國際社會再一次的澄清這個絕對不是台灣的主流民意那我們知道是說其實政黨之間有競爭這是一個民主社會裡面才會有存在的一個現象"},{"start":7812.452,"end":7841.306,"text":"像這樣的一些東西的存在正式證明了我們的國家非但不是一個極權統治的國家是一個這個民主自由的一個典範我們可以溝通這樣的一個概念好 謝謝鄭次的回應這非常的重要喔當這個中國的戰狼在國際上面不斷的咆哮要升高對立的同時如果台灣內部也變成是戰狼化而且不斷的附和中國這個是一個非常危險的尤其是我剛剛特別提到的那就是"},{"start":7842.086,"end":7845.749,"text":"現在外交部是沒有對外發聲的經費被砍到剩下付的那這個是相對的困難我們只能再利用更多的宣傳但是可能跟中國對比這種砸錢的遊戲我們是實在也沒辦法玩了來下一張"},{"start":7858.957,"end":7877.532,"text":"但是我們看到的是說至少過去台灣因為外交不同人的努力以及大家齊心協力我們確實還是看到了一些績效包括這一陣子以來我特別整理了從3月20號比利時聯邦眾議院關切中國持續對台灣的威脅的法案決議案再到這個歐洲議會"},{"start":7881.743,"end":7903.96,"text":"波蘭的友台小組捷克的參議院到5月5號也就是前幾天美國的眾議院都通過了台灣保證落實法案跟台灣的國際團結法案等等這都證明了就是中國的戰狼外交是失敗的所以他們現在想要用這種扭曲歷史或者是國際上面的決議的方式來"},{"start":7905.725,"end":7933.222,"text":"讓台灣在國際上消失是越來越沒有辦法是但是在這個部分本席還是要提醒就是當更多的國際友人支持我們的時候我們在對外發聲的部分還是要持續加強是好那麼繼續的我想最後利用土西我利用一點時間就是我們其他的民主夥伴相繼的發聲的時候那這個在我們參與國際組織包括接下來的WHO的會議當中我們是不是可能有更多的進展"},{"start":7934.281,"end":7960.373,"text":"那麼WHO一直是我們努力的一個方向我們希望WHO、WHA能夠秉持的這一個為所有人的健康那麼也讓沒有不落下任何不落下任何的一個人這樣的一個精神那麼尤其是說在疫情期間台灣的表現也再一次的說明台灣can help那麼我們參與到這樣的一個國際組織絕對是有正面的對於國際社會有正面的幫助那我們也透過兩個事情嘛"},{"start":7961.533,"end":7990.437,"text":"第一個是對於2758號的一個正確的一個詮釋各個國家紛紛的發聲第二個是說對於我們台灣能夠對於國際社會做出實質貢獻這兩點上面直接說服這個東西不是一個容易的路尤其是在於我們的外交經費被刪減的一個情況之下尤其是在這個國際的宣傳上面有它困難量但是外交部絕對不會放棄我們的職責我們會做所有的方法想出有創意的一些做法來能夠增加國際的支持"},{"start":7990.697,"end":8015.731,"text":"好 我不希望 我剛剛前面問的第一個問題有關一個德國在台協會這樣的一個聲明包括其他歐洲國家都串聯會影響到我們後續參與國際組織在這裡雖然歐洲是 夏思黨不在然後因為運功請假但是我要提醒歐洲絲必須要好好的來關注這個事情因為它已經是造成了歐洲國家的大串聯這個不可以等閒視之好嗎"},{"start":8016.874,"end":8039.58,"text":"好,我們今天就會跟所有的相關的這個歐洲駐台的這些辦事處能夠有一個互動然後跟他們再次的說明那麼我們會注意這樣的一個事情然後我們也跟他表達說這個一定不是台灣的主流民意好,謝謝謝謝林淑英的質詢接下來有王定宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":8049.509,"end":8074.93,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩政次市長我還是先從德國的駐台協會這個聲明來先講起在外交場域上其實駐地單位使館代表處"},{"start":8076.591,"end":8094.497,"text":"點名該帝國的特定政黨進行所謂的批評其實是非常罕見非常罕見那這已經是第二次是上一次是所謂的特定政黨就國民黨的上次一個年輕人穿著納粹衣服去法院"},{"start":8095.928,"end":8121.544,"text":"這一次是直接點名國民黨跟朱立倫喔我看德國在來協會的那個聲明裡面是點名台灣的特勤政黨跟黨主席然後用詞呢很重叫做失望與不安不僅是德國在來協會歐盟分享了德國在來協會的官方的這個聲明那我們都知道他們的態度那這其實是一個"},{"start":8122.952,"end":8140.48,"text":"有人說德國沒有權力干涉台灣內政這毫無國際觀反對納粹反對侵害人權是國際普世價值如果講到這個叫做侵害他國內政之鬧第二次笑話那我們知道以色列現在有一個國衛團在台灣"},{"start":8142.598,"end":8169.258,"text":"裡面有一個擔任過國防部長有一個擔任過農業部長有一個擔任過通訊部長三個內閣承認部長的重量級國會議員然後這個團呢我印象涵蓋三個到五個政黨人現在正在台灣所以我們看到歐洲的態度了請問一下以色列來到台灣訪問的團對這件事情目前有沒有態度或者Maya駐台代表有沒有態度"},{"start":8169.858,"end":8186.711,"text":"我們請亞非斯來報告委員,目前我們還沒有看到他們這個團有相關的一些態度的說明那以色列駐台協會呢?目前我們還沒有收到相關的一些資訊因為通常他們會是第一個反應可是講納粹,這一次是德國先有反應所以這會變成國際事件,這會上國際媒體"},{"start":8190.174,"end":8204.385,"text":"那我也相信這些駐台的代表們他們對狀況是很了解的他們其實就是怕國際誤以為台灣都這樣子他才點名特定政黨以免國際以為台灣人都這麼丟臉"},{"start":8205.766,"end":8234.159,"text":"而這個特定政黨不思反省還用網軍點名去攻擊德國駐台協會我覺得這個是本來是各政黨的內部我不想講但這個影響到台灣的國際形象所以外交部要妥適的處理是我們一定會跟這個各個國家能夠說明這個不是台灣的主流因為它裡面也特別提到在國際的評比不管是言論自由或者是所謂的施政的透明度反貪腐指數"},{"start":8235.259,"end":8255.533,"text":"或者是民主的排名台灣幾乎都亞洲排名前兩名國際排名我們甚至於是網路自由度亞洲的排名第一名這樣的國家去類比二戰時候的納粹已經是不倫不類了那如果要攻擊所謂的獨裁我們隔壁那個國家中國最獨裁你就拿那個類比就好了"},{"start":8256.618,"end":8271.591,"text":"所以這個事情不僅是把內政政黨的惡鬥搞到鬧國際笑話傷害的不是政黨之間的利益傷害的是台灣國際形象所以這個事情本席在這邊第一題就拿出來請外交部"},{"start":8272.472,"end":8296.562,"text":"可能有一個縮帖好好說明那這些政黨我相信這些駐台代表包含歐洲各國他特別會點名政黨其實相當程度是認同台灣整體不會這樣子我認識的台灣人民甚至我認識的國民黨朋友也沒有人這麼假的我不知道這個政黨怎麼會這樣子好我第二個要請問的是北美斯各位先請回北美斯有沒有注意到"},{"start":8298.035,"end":8324.014,"text":"在美國國務院有一個所謂的各國的關係的有個定義表比方說這個United StatesTaiwan Relations這個United States Relations with Taiwan有一個定義表那他們不是針對台灣啦他對全世界各地各國都會有這樣的定義表這個定義表上一次review更新是什麼時候"},{"start":8327.202,"end":8341.868,"text":"在台灣的部分是今年年初的時候2月嘛我印象川普就任後1月20號就職2月份才剛更新對台對中國大概對130幾國的關係表有重新定義那昨天"},{"start":8343.078,"end":8362.829,"text":"這一個國務院的對各國的關係表通通撤下來我看到有有媒體報導說台灣的被這個拉下來不是我看起來他是全部都有重新更新在更新中的時候二月份更新的頁面現在都看不見了北美是有沒有掌握了解目前是什麼狀況"},{"start":8364.843,"end":8392.432,"text":"其實這個情形已經有好幾個禮拜了那我們其實之前就已經問過就是透過AIT還有華府都有了解那美方的回應是說其實這個並不是針對台灣或任何是全面性的他們因為主要是那裡面它是美國100那裡面有100多個國家的專門關於介紹它是全面下架因為它說裡面很多國家的這些資訊都是兩年以上都沒有再更新"},{"start":8392.912,"end":8407.669,"text":"把國務院二月份剛更新嘛現在在五月份才過了不到一季他又全部重新要review一次他是把所有的他現在所有全部在更新所以全部先拉下來那台灣的頁面會不會有所變動"},{"start":8409.25,"end":8429.316,"text":"這個我們還要再繼續了解但目前就是說他們是要全面檢視然後在最後再重新把可能要掌握一下有關台灣的部分有關對亞洲各國日本中國我們台灣第一島鏈相關國家我們不能等它發生可能要先了解它大概有些更新如果台灣就跟二月份一樣不變能夠事前掌握"},{"start":8431.488,"end":8460.026,"text":"這一個川普在5月6號說了一件我覺得蠻有意思的就是這標準的川普風格說這兩天會宣布一個他用的英文叫做Earth Shattering就是地球會動的就震動地球的大消息而且告訴大家這跟貿易無關那而且對那個國家他有個特定國是一個他們想要得到卻一直沒有得到的一個大消息大發展"},{"start":8461.772,"end":8491.201,"text":"你們有沒有試著去猜謎看看或掌握這個情資他在講什麼這個我們大概不太好去猜啦但是說就這個台美關係的部分我們現在看到的包括他在這個聯合國首次的發聲這個聯合國我要糾正一下2758號決議文事實上從Greenfield擔任美國駐聯合國大使是一直到之前之前川普第一任的最後一任駐聯合國大使"},{"start":8492.486,"end":8520.62,"text":"都有講過2758號決議文在兩年前兩個助理次卿來到台灣把所有駐台的外國辦事處韓邦邦交國邀集開會請他們就2758號決議文的正確決議呢進行詮釋鼓勵大家認知到當年的2758號決議文那個文本大家隨便網路調都有了裡面根本沒有提到台灣講的是中國代表權由"},{"start":8521.32,"end":8539.528,"text":"所謂的毛澤東的中華人民共和國所取代結束完全沒有提到台灣所以2758號決議文無赦台灣這也就是這兩天剛通過的一個台灣國際團結法案的根本精神而台灣國際團結法案是美國的國會通過的"},{"start":8544.79,"end":8557.053,"text":"那在國際社會上大家現在包含了英國、澳洲、加拿大、美國、荷蘭、比利時、捷克、歐盟各國、馬紹爾群島都通過2758號決議文無色台灣美國有好幾個州的州議會也通過2758號決議文無色台灣你知道這是什麼嗎"},{"start":8563.775,"end":8583.785,"text":"這是台灣2300萬人參與國際社會的法律基礎那中國當然緊張因為中國就是從1971年開始拿2758號決議文說你們台灣已經被中國代表了所以你沒有資格參與國際社會任何跟台灣建交的或者跟中國建交的都要跟台灣斷交它的根基就是2758號"},{"start":8585.026,"end":8589.372,"text":"所以2758號決議文就是阻止台灣2300萬人國際參與的法律戰中國已經濫用了將近40年他亂搞這個東西錯誤的扭曲用這個阻止台灣參加IKEA INTERPOL"},{"start":8603.953,"end":8627.579,"text":"包含我們一直要參加的世界衛生組織都是跟2758號有關所以當你看到國際主流社會都在通過說對啊那個文字內容根本沒有談到台灣那中國會反擊索馬利亞就是一個反擊他叫他那個胡仔國叫中國的附庸國胡仔國索馬利亞出來說什麼"},{"start":8628.559,"end":8638.133,"text":"根據2758號決議文持台灣的護照的不得入境索馬利亞誰要去他那裡啊索馬利亞那海盜國我坦白講台灣去那邊很少啊"},{"start":8639.096,"end":8666.756,"text":"索馬利亞是一個不值得尊重國家但是他這個動作就顯示中國想要利用他的胡宰國來玩2758號決議文的法律戰而這法律戰建立在事實的根基上本來就無色台灣如果無色台灣美國兩年前兩位助理次卿來到台灣鼓勵世界各國了解2758號決議文的真實"},{"start":8667.697,"end":8677.19,"text":"然後鼓勵大家跟台灣可以進行官方的往來這是一個很大的突破所以我現在你剛才提到2758號我先跳離開那一題"},{"start":8678.462,"end":8698.334,"text":"根據不管是美國剛通過的國際團結法案或者美國在聯合國的大使我印象有三次提到27582的原文而且是跨民主共和黨兩任政府那目前這個國際法理戰中國除了用索馬利亞以外它還會你們有沒有掌握情資它還會叫哪些胡宰國出來講"},{"start":8700.866,"end":8726.085,"text":"你不好用這個字啊他其他的相關的邦交國因為我想他在全球南方喔那麼在這個索馬利亞這個事情並不是單獨的例子當然那包括之前跟我們斷交的南泰很多的國家跟他建交的時候都重新的在陳述了他每一個國家建交都會拿2758號出來說出來但我說會做大動作說禁止持我們國家護照的人不能入境目前還有沒有其他國家"},{"start":8726.724,"end":8744.661,"text":"目前我們並沒有感覺到有這樣的一個跡象會擴大那麼畢竟每個國家跟中國的這個關係因為禁止台灣拿台灣護照的路徑以現在國際社會來講損失的可能是那個國家這絕對是 台灣的經貿實力你不來就不來 不來就不來我們台灣是有實力的國家所以因為時間的關係"},{"start":8747.644,"end":8765.898,"text":"這個2758號決議文世界各國都根據事實做出對台灣國際參與有利的決議我本心很遺憾我們在立法院只有全世界民主國家現在我們台灣的國會無法就這個通過在來黨要提出的是恢復一中的決議文那個會鬧國際笑話所以2758號決議文在國際的氛圍這樣的狀況下我們在"},{"start":8771.002,"end":8798.529,"text":"這一次不管是世衛大會或者是Interpol ICAO這些相關民航組織等等兩年一次的會議各國應該會在那邊再重申2758號不應該作為阻止台灣參與的法律基礎是那我們外交部應該加大一些遊說的動作但我還是很遺憾我們對國際發聲的沒宣相關的費用被藍白刪到變零元你們是砍到零嗎是有沒有剩一塊"},{"start":8799.605,"end":8815.134,"text":"有沒有剩一塊好像沒有你知道砍到零跟剩一塊差別在哪裡剩一塊還可以追加還可以救回來砍到變零根據預算法我們還不能找其他理由編回來一個國家的外交是代表國家的聲音聲音被"},{"start":8816.095,"end":8839.411,"text":"把喉嚨聲帶都割掉了竟然是我們自己國家國會所為這個是比較遺憾但是外交人員辛苦了還是要幫國家發聲因為今天時間太短沒辦法把題目問完但是請注意到就是目前美國正在發聲的國際重新定義以及當然川普個人主義個人色彩很重所以他所有重新定義創下了一些先例"},{"start":8840.211,"end":8855.965,"text":"要往對台灣有利走如果對台灣不利的時候這個先例一旦設下來我們可能將來會費很大的力氣才能拉回來可能北美斯跟相關同仁要加油一下謝謝謝謝王定一委員的諮詢現在休息五分鐘五分鐘之後繼續詢問"},{"start":9215.812,"end":9220.775,"text":"現在開始開會我們請陳貝育委員上台置信好謝謝主席有請次長"},{"start":9236.158,"end":9264.577,"text":"委員好好 次長早安我想跟次長繼續來討論外交部可以做的運動外交是那運動外交這件事情其實我屢次的質詢都已經講過我們來看下一張在九月MLB海盜隊會有一個台灣日那除了台灣日這件事情我之前已經跟外交部討論我認為外交部可以做更多事情但很令人開心的事情我們台灣的無人鎖大使劉伯鈞他將擔任開球的來賓那我不知道次長您知不知道他為什麼會成為這個開球的來賓"},{"start":9266.738,"end":9288.104,"text":"我覺得她是表現非常傑出的一個女性她同時也是首個重要的一個女的裁判我想她具有代表意義市長講到部分的正確第一個其實是因為MLB海盜隊是第一個設置女性裁判室的大聯盟球場這是第一個"},{"start":9288.684,"end":9312.232,"text":"第二個 去年他們還舉辦了美國女裁判的主題活動所以對柏軍大使發出了這個邀請那當天他除了去開球之外我其實非常好奇我們外交部在這件事情上有什麼可以助力的可能或者是如何讓這個活動以外他除了去開球之外我們可以讓相關的效益放大我們有沒有可能有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":9314.928,"end":9336.886,"text":"除了我們的一般的行政協助之外我們也希望那麼劉伯鈞大使去這一趟能夠發揮最大的一個效應那麼就是說我們進行運動外交那麼一個具有代表性的人物在這麼具有一個重要性的一個球場做開球的這樣的一個事情我們希望能夠把它相關的效應能夠做到最大但是"},{"start":9338.155,"end":9365.693,"text":"還是遇到一個問題是說我們的的確是這個對外宣傳的一個這個經費非常的不是非常有限是沒有嘛所以我們希望能夠透過更加有創意的一些活動不只是跟這個橋界的互動也希望能夠跟這個美國主流社會能夠傳達這樣一個訊息我們是個非常重視體育的國家我們是非常重視運動的國家不過次長你剛講到了已經有兩個很有創意的方法一個是也許可以辦跟橋界的交流是"},{"start":9365.973,"end":9392.828,"text":"那甚至是呢跟當地的中小學辦交流我覺得這應該也是一個可能不需要花經費我們在沒有經費的節居的困難的情況下運用我們的創意讓台灣的運動外交可以擴及到在美國當地不同的生活圈不同的族群不同的文化生活經驗裡面所以剛剛你講到跟僑界交流也好啦跟當地的學府交流啦辦相關的演講啦座談會應該也是我們可以做的事情"},{"start":9393.308,"end":9412.966,"text":"那因為現在其實時間還早還有一點時間喔後續這邊我希望可以看到外交部更積極的規劃讓這件事情的效益放大好嗎是我們一定會這樣來做那因為你們外交部自己其實有一個外交部國際青年大使計畫是他有沒有機會做一個整合或是做一個結合"},{"start":9416.963,"end":9444.005,"text":"沒關係 讓您的幕僚來幫您回答委員好 我是NGO國際會執行長江振偉有關於外交部國際青年大使我先報告一下 今年的部分大概是在八月下旬會到馬紹爾跟關島進行相關青年大使的訪問團計畫今年的部分比較放在原住民的主軸上面"},{"start":9444.665,"end":9463.499,"text":"那有關於就是說是不是在明年可以結合相關的這個運動外交的國際賽事來辦理的話我們現在可以考慮朝這個方向來做思考那我們現在就是說明年的這個國際青年大使計畫我們會有把它擴大的一個想法"},{"start":9464.059,"end":9484.898,"text":"沒關係 我先尊重你們的工作期程安排喔確實我們提早規劃是對的但是因為我已經提到了外交部國際青年大使那就算錯過跟博軍今年到美國去的時間但我相信我們持續用運動外交作為主題應該是一個好的方向那不要忘記了美加墨2026世界盃也是可以提早規劃的事情好不好好 我們一定照辦"},{"start":9485.438,"end":9512.263,"text":"好 謝謝喔 來最後一個來第二個我們還有另外一個非常優秀的無人鎖大使戴茲穎那我想喔今天的主題是南島的問題嘛我們來看一下關於南島語系國家的總和外交我認為戴茲穎大使可以發揮很重要的角色在印尼跟馬來西亞這些國家他們對於語球的熱愛這件事情我相信如果透過運動外交的策略或者是相關有創意的方法應該也可以促成更多的互動對不對"},{"start":9513.733,"end":9531.378,"text":"絕對是好那就拜託你們要納入相關的規劃當中不管是透過剛剛這個執行長這邊你們必須用這個管道或者是其他的管道所以我想我就具體的要求外交部應該要持續跟MLB各對台灣日的規劃的可能性我覺得這個我們一起加油再來搭配既有的青年大使計畫不管是在"},{"start":9531.778,"end":9553.948,"text":"今年看起來來不及了 明年或者是後年還有所謂的美加末世節盃最後運動外交要拜託你們納入相關外交部持續長期推動的規劃因為它絕對不會只有運動部的事情 好嗎完全認可 而且要往這個方向來努力好 那我剛說的相關的事情有機會在一個月內給我們相關的規劃報告嗎可以 我們以書面來回答好 沒問題 謝謝市長 謝謝執行長謝謝 謝謝主席"},{"start":9558.062,"end":9581.399,"text":"謝謝陳培宇的質詢接下來有曾振全委員上台質詢曾振全委員曾振全委員曾振全委員不在接下來有李坤成委員上台質詢李坤成委員李坤成委員李坤成委員不在接下來有鄭天才委員上台質詢"},{"start":9593.406,"end":9621.475,"text":"主席 各位委員有請這個次長 陳次長還有這個中副主委次長好 中副主委好委員好你好 你好嗎的意思你好剛才這個羅美玲委員是這個用馬來西亞的語言"},{"start":9622.659,"end":9629.21,"text":"跟我們中副主委對話還有我們的召委是你的感受是怎麼樣"},{"start":9629.961,"end":9657.154,"text":"非常精彩喔那麼我們也認識到是說其實南島語系包括說這個馬來語裡面也有相當的一個成分我覺得那就讓我們對於所謂的南島的外交也能夠擴及到更大的一個範圍我覺得這是非常正面而且我也體會到是說其實台灣的這個原住民族還是有很多共同的地方然後跟在境外這也是昭偉剛才所提到的不是只有國對國我想說這一個民族文化"},{"start":9657.634,"end":9671.047,"text":"也是我們外交重要的一個資源完全認可這個我們委員會這樣的一個想法認同這個這個召委這樣的一個想法好,非常謝謝你這個從美國的語言學家"},{"start":9672.233,"end":9697.045,"text":"或是其他国家的演习家都认为台湾是南岛民主的发言地这个不是我们自己说的那我自己也是公务员出身我在人民会服务的时候民国88年开始在人民会服务当时"},{"start":9699.076,"end":9726.199,"text":"只要是跟南島民族國家我們的邦交國有相關的這些民族文化的活動或是需要去交流的部分外交部都會請人民會指派人員是然後帶我們相關的原住民的團體到這個相關的國家我自己啊"},{"start":9727.967,"end":9756.718,"text":"在這個當處長教育文化處長後來當副主委就去了這個諾魯瓦魯斐濟紐西蘭等國家當然其他的這個副主委或者是其他的主委也去過其他地方是所以這個部分我們去真的是"},{"start":9758.7,"end":9786.83,"text":"非常非常的我們就用自己的語言去跟他們對話非常非常的親切是我們被外交部邀請去參加經費都是外交部的是不是不是嚴明會的是外交部的經費所以這樣的一個互動對兩國之間不管是政府機關"},{"start":9788.513,"end":9806.579,"text":"或是這個人民都有非常非常好的一個互動對外交的這個非常非常的有幫助所以這個部分這個外交部這幾年做得不夠我來說這個也要透過部長去跟總統報告過去啊無論是"},{"start":9816.588,"end":9844.184,"text":"這個前任的李登輝總統他比較少後面的陳水扁總統或是馬英九總統他去這些南島國家都會請原住民的立委或是地方政府的相關的人員一起去這個就是能夠更好的一個"},{"start":9846.67,"end":9874.939,"text":"外交的一個交流所以這個部是一個很重要的請這個外交部來做參考是好 這個次長請回座來 中副主委委員好剛才漏了這個我也跟次長講漏了一個中華民國台灣的原住民也曾經駐斐濟的代表尤哈尼伊斯卡卡夫的也請這個跟部長講"},{"start":9876.465,"end":9889.995,"text":"好這個南島民族的交流我剛才有講過去都是外交部那當然從這個人民會編列了這個擬定了這個南島民族論壇的計畫108年合定當初合定的計畫是7億3千多萬109到114年度"},{"start":9904.81,"end":9923.073,"text":"那當然這個到今年年度請問一下明年的你們還要訂嗎明年我們現在正在訂新的計劃好這個可能會變成是要訂可以訂但是千萬一定要審慎而且不要"},{"start":9924.195,"end":9949.721,"text":"因為我們研明會的預算已經夠少了啦是是研明會的預算夠少你應該積極的去想辦法去協調外交部提供相關的經費我剛講過過去都是外交部出的所以這個部分連那個你看對語言你都還要對國外的建築語言我們台灣現在是十六組對不對四十幾個方圓北"},{"start":9952.034,"end":9980.707,"text":"下次加上今年年底啊十月以後今年十月以後會增加什麼組十月二十八號按照憲判十七號可能會增加平埔相關族群對 平埔族群有幾個學者按照大概九到十六之間啦也是十幾個啊是那議員更是他們議員更是所以我們經費已經不夠啦他們的議員大概也都已經是兵委或是嘛你還要把經費給這個帛琉"},{"start":9982.143,"end":10007.192,"text":"你看 帛琉的辭典 我們還要協助可以請外交部協助啦我們協助 經費要由外交部啊所以這個部分 要花六百多萬對於原住民族而言我們的語言是瀕臨消失啊 對不對更需要去加強 這個時間的關係"},{"start":10013.37,"end":10015.311,"text":"接下來有鍾嘉斌委員上台諮詢 鍾嘉斌委員上台諮詢 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌不在 蘇青前委員上台諮詢"},{"start":10034.917,"end":10057.877,"text":"蘇欽前委員蘇欽前委員蘇欽前委員不在楊瓊英上台諮詢楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英不在那蔡玉瑜委員上台諮詢蔡玉瑜委員上台諮詢蔡玉瑜委員蔡玉瑜委員不在接下來有林郁君委員上台諮詢"},{"start":10071.718,"end":10073.499,"text":"謝謝主席有請次長委員好次長好教宗方濟各安息主懷之後教廷預計今天開始繼任的教宗的選舉會議據瞭解因為教宗的會議大部分都是高度的秘密的會議所以一般外界大部分都"},{"start":10098.577,"end":10119.187,"text":"不太可以有機會掌握整個事前的情節知道繼任的教宗是誰但是目前全世界的主流媒體已經整理出九位繼任的人選請次長看一下外交部目前有沒有預測可能會是哪一個人選是比較有可能成為下一任的教宗的繼任人選呢"},{"start":10120.135,"end":10148.086,"text":"報告委員沒有耶這個我們對於這個教宗的這個繼任人選不做任何的猜測我們重點在於第一個是說能夠繼續的傳達我國是一個那麼重視宗教自由的國家第二個我們也有相當顯著的天主教的這個信徒需要牧羊第三個是說我們跟教廷維持良好的關係那我們對於個別的一個人選那麼也沒有什麼猜測也沒有這個特別的這個"},{"start":10149.647,"end":10150.029,"text":"要去影響"},{"start":10151.309,"end":10175.642,"text":"因為畢竟教廷是我們台灣現在歐洲唯一的邦交國也是台灣現在僅存的邦交的12個國家之一但是因為有中國的因素所以未來繼任教宗會不會有轉變影響到教廷未來的兩岸政策進而影響到我們台灣和教廷的關係所以請次長一定要密切的注意這些千萬不要因為教宗換人到時候我們兩國的邦交又出了問題"},{"start":10179.724,"end":10182.868,"text":"還有本席是期許外交部可以風光的成為一個為台灣增加的邦交國的建交部千萬不要跟前部長吳釗燮一樣被共諜滲透讓外交部變成了斷交部那可以嗎當然"},{"start":10196.525,"end":10223.796,"text":"那我們現在在這個林部長的這個帶領之下那我們在三個面向上面繼續努力第一個是在於這個故邦、榮邦、拓邦第三個拓邦就是希望能夠開拓更多的我們的國際友人讓大家能夠認同台灣的一個民主自由的一個理念那我們在這上面也跟委員報告我們盡了所有的努力那我們希望那麼很快的能夠有好的消息但是"},{"start":10224.296,"end":10246.904,"text":"也請委員了解到說這是一個不是很容易的一個過程尤其是中國在全世界所有的可能的場合都打壓台灣我們的駐外的工作人員非常的辛苦也非常的努力但是我們會全面的加把勁希望能夠很早日帶給國人同胞好的消息"},{"start":10247.662,"end":10259.024,"text":"好 謝謝那在接下來請問次長我們現在的外交理念是不是已經從過去最被批評的金錢外交已經把它轉成了價值外交了呢"},{"start":10260.117,"end":10281.878,"text":"報告委員我們中華民國的外交一直不是用金錢為重心我們對於理念價值那麼尊重中華民國的自由民主我想這才是最重要的現在來說的話我們的這個部長林部長現在有三三條鏈第一個是說這個民主價值鏈第二個是所謂的這個第一島第一島"},{"start":10282.819,"end":10297.062,"text":"第一島鏈這個所謂的地緣政治上面的重要性第三個很重要的是我們的在整個全球的這個供應鏈上面的關鍵位置那我們透過這三條鏈三鏈能夠推動我們外交的工作"},{"start":10297.984,"end":10314.295,"text":"那我想請問一下就是說,在太平洋地區,現在仍然與台灣維持外交關係的國家有哪幾個國家?南泰有三個國家,帛琉、這個馬紹爾群島以及這個土瓦魯。那他們各維持了多少年呢?具體的來,我們請我們的亞太司的司長回答。"},{"start":10320.605,"end":10339.375,"text":"跟委員報告一下那個馬紹爾是進入26年那那個柏流是25年然後那個土華魯是46年所以本席相信我們的雙方其實都能建交維持到25年其實那麼多年的感情應該都是真心的吧是"},{"start":10341.038,"end":10359.768,"text":"所以我再請問次長我們台灣是不是也有屬於藍島語族的26也是屬於藍島語族的26個國家之一嘛對不對雖然我今天有看到今天的報告發現外交部的確做了不少的努力但還是希望外交部還是可以再做更多的交流還有互動因為來深化我們台灣跟藍島語族國家的文化上面的連結"},{"start":10366.172,"end":10383.503,"text":"是那就好像剛才那個包括昭緯包括其他的委員也提到我們想說外交部會跟原民會一起配合在整個經費上面在努力上面一起的這一個合作能夠這個透展我們的原民外交這也是我們的這個部長他的總和外交裡面重要的部分"},{"start":10384.25,"end":10386.731,"text":"因為去年2024年的時候舉辦的第53屆太平洋島國的論壇所以聽說它這裡面有包含澳洲和紐西蘭在內的國家都很肯定我們台灣的貢獻還有參與而且非常的支持我們台灣在PIF的參與的地位還有去年7月12號和9月10號本席在立法院有陪同韓院長分別接待了"},{"start":10408.643,"end":10409.744,"text":"那個馬紹爾群島共和國的國會的議長還有土瓦魯的議長對他們長期支持台灣在太平洋島國的論壇的國際參與甚至聯合國有些WHA等國際場合為我國來發聲我們都是"},{"start":10425.733,"end":10430.956,"text":"給予特別的感謝所以次長本席非常的希望以後外交部邀請外賓來訪時尤其是和我們台灣原住民語言相近的藍島語族的國家我們可以在國內參訪那時候同時除了接待他們享用我們台灣的美食之外"},{"start":10443.865,"end":10445.286,"text":"更有機會可以帶著這些外賓到花蓮台東觀光舉辦更多的交流活動因為這樣可以趁機做好的國際外交也因為這樣也可以在我們花東地區因為0403的地震過後的經濟重新振興還有帶動整個景氣"},{"start":10462.057,"end":10466.539,"text":"此外我也發現我們和這個蘭島語族的吐瓦魯國的雙方的情誼可能不限在此還有更緊密的關係因為吐瓦魯的主要的語言是吐瓦魯語但是好像跟我們台灣幾個原住民族像魯凱族、卑蘭族所用的母語有比較接近還有卑蘭族這些大部分都是在台東還有魯凱族有些有分布在台東的嘉蘭村還有卑蘭村、卑蘭鄉這樣這是本席住的花東的地區"},{"start":10491.232,"end":10498.914,"text":"我想也是我們召委黃人委員居住的地方和選區所以你知道去年的時候土瓦魯的和馬紹爾群島的議長來國會拜訪的時候他們非常的熱情的邀請我們院長他還有邀請我們台灣的立委能夠有機會可以去他們國家進行一些交流這樣所以我想說我們已經跟他們維持那麼多年的友邦是不是應該再積極交流更多的深化的關係呢是"},{"start":10520.74,"end":10522.562,"text":"那本席想要建議一下請外交部可以安排國會外交到土瓦魯還是馬紹爾群島還是這些藍島語族的國家進行國會外交否則每次都是對方非常熱情的來台結果我們自己的國會都無動於衷"},{"start":10535.572,"end":10538.293,"text":"這樣是非常沒有禮貌的啦其實有時候是要禮尚往來嘛不然我們會非常的失禮啦還是請我們的原住民委員黃仁昭委主動安排一下考察到那個國家去我們可以進行一些交流不論是文化方面"},{"start":10553.058,"end":10582.524,"text":"語言方面還是醫療交流方面畢竟我們台灣的醫療那麼先進其實也是有機會進行一些國會上面的交流看看他們國家是不是需要台灣進一步的協助還是合作的地方讓雙方的友情更加堅定不移畢竟我們台灣現在應該沒有任何斷交的本錢了所以可以沒有辦法再繼續有人跟我們斷交了所以我們也不能有這種邦交國有分手的意外所以我們也更需要在這方面做更大的努力"},{"start":10583.308,"end":10604.932,"text":"我們外交部主動規劃積極配合如果說大院決定是說要去這些我們南泰的友邦來訪視的話我們一定會全力的配合做好規劃那麼讓雙方的這個交流達到更加有意義然後也提升雙方的邦誼到更高的一個層次這我們絕對要一起來努力謝謝好 謝謝謝謝林醫師的委員質詢"},{"start":10612.845,"end":10620.51,"text":"現在蔡議員委員在現場,我們尋慮給三分鐘的諮詢我請蔡議員委員上台諮詢好,謝謝主席,因為來不及,剛剛有被跳號的來,我們是不是有請我們外交部我們次長,陳次長"},{"start":10645.122,"end":10660.163,"text":"市長請問市長你知道跟台灣跟中華民國好了跟中華民國最近的國家是哪一個國家距離最近物理的距離物理的距離最近"},{"start":10662.861,"end":10679.614,"text":"哪一個國家是離中華民國最近的國家跟台灣啊 跟台灣島跟台灣島日本日本對 它最南邊的 雲納古島跟台灣島啦 因為還有金門馬祖所以跟台灣島最近的就是日本是"},{"start":10680.254,"end":10696.05,"text":"日本與納國島跟台灣距離111公里這個與納國島過去在二戰前二戰前台灣跟日本就同一個日本日治時代所以二戰前台灣跟這個與納國島"},{"start":10701.516,"end":10716.089,"text":"通商很頻繁,人跟人的交流也很多所以雲澳國島現在有很多他們地方的棋老,是都會說台語的二戰後,一邊為中華民國,一邊就是變美軍託管的就是Okinawa,琉球群島這裡所以貿易就變遭殊,人的交流就叫做託度所以這兩個國家就拆開了"},{"start":10729.654,"end":10749.968,"text":"現在很多人都忘了離台灣這麼近的一個日本的領土日本都把與那國叫做他們最後的太陽最後的日落啦因為它是在日本的最西側所以這個次長你剛才都說你都知道那我想要請教次長就是說因為我從過去兩屆我都會問台灣跟與那國的執行"},{"start":10758.447,"end":10777.864,"text":"到底現在推動的怎樣?從游錫堃前院長發動的那一次WeSooOut到UNAGO的直航之後,那後續呢?後續現在到底推動的怎樣呢?那麼在直航我們的推動,我們最近新宇航空開了這個新的班機嘛"},{"start":10779.785,"end":10800.524,"text":"你意思是說海運的部分嗎不管是海運還是空運空運的部分我們跟這個西蘭諸島現在有開了一個新的一個它是到宮古島是啊宮古島是啊就是我比較遺憾因為都要到宮古島它現在就是直航都是兩個啦一個就是到石岩島就是宮古島另外一個就是到沖繩縣因為它整個雲納國也是他們的沖繩縣嘛"},{"start":10804.127,"end":10819.162,"text":"所以你就要先到食鹽島,先到這個Okinawa,再轉機回到與那國所以它這樣繞一圈,變得我們台灣到與那國之間的因為這樣的轉機的因素,誘因變得很少"},{"start":10820.143,"end":10843.12,"text":"我覺得這個好可惜喔因為曾經這一個島跟台灣就是這麼的親近那我們現在跟日本竟然有這樣的一個良好的互動去推動我們跟與那國的直航對於未來我們兩個國家的友誼的交易一定是更往上提升的啊尤其是像我剛才說的與那國那附近是所有潛水者最愛去的地方你知不知道與那國旁邊是什麼"},{"start":10847.637,"end":10853.059,"text":"那裡是過去有金字塔的地方,海底遺跡所有的潛水者一輩子的夢想就是去那裡潛水結果你就要飛到食鹽島轉機回來,那裡潛水開了就沒有了"},{"start":10871.855,"end":10891.02,"text":"動機就少很多所以我是覺得說外交部我們努力這一塊所以這個如果推動成功台日關係更加提升而且對於整體的這個這個不管是希望透過平民的外交的方式都是很好好不好努力一下啦我們遵照辦理我講很久了我講很久了打拚一下是好 謝謝"},{"start":10894.975,"end":10907.754,"text":"謝謝蔡英宇委員質詢以登記執行的委員處不在場軍外發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有林倩琦委員吳麗華委員"},{"start":10909.858,"end":10929.857,"text":"提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢的為其答覆部分會要補充資料者請相關單位以書面以兩周內答覆委員另約訂期限者從期所定本會會議到此結束 散會"},{"start":10941.188,"end":10947.581,"text":"剪刀 剪刀剪"},{"start":10955.509,"end":10955.729,"text":"關一下"}]}},{"id":"161136","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161136","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c123986714bea75842bf088656e97d3403c59ceea3ce0d89f75d0c75dcc8d4630c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"14:14:16 - 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xt":"是的那所以在這個劑量之下對人體健康不會有傷害嗎就是沒有證據特別提到他的傷害性是是是我們目前國內養豬的時候可以用來各多白案嗎目前國內是沒有那為什麼國內要禁止使用剛剛你不是說0.01ppm是客觀的標準是科學的標準是專家討論以後的標準現在我就想不懂了"},{"start":242.332,"end":256.443,"text":"在台灣100%禁用萊克多巴胺它的理由是什麼?是因為台灣的豬一旦有萊克多巴胺不管劑量有多少都對健康有風險嗎?"},{"start":257.523,"end":279.127,"text":"我想應該不是這樣子的那是什麼那是當初的一個背景之下希望對當初什麼背景因為國內的豬肉大概佔百分之九十所以相對於進口的有可能允許的情況之下中間那個競合對國人的選擇上面那有提供不一樣的選擇那市場上面齁不一樣的選擇是消費者的選擇啊這跟國家法規範的標準是兩回事啊都要混為一談啊"},{"start":287.427,"end":310.561,"text":"您今天作為專家作為政務官那我就希望代表政府的立場告訴全台灣人民我們客觀可接受專家的標準到底是什麼嗎現在我就想不懂了如果我們政府的標準是認為0.01ppm是客觀可接受的風險"},{"start":312.11,"end":318.912,"text":"那為什麼國內的豬肉禁止使用萊克多巴胺我只要不要超過0.01ppm就好啦不是這樣嗎"},{"start":321.477,"end":341.871,"text":"就這個議題上面可能他決定的層次會超越在食藥署在訂定當時安全的一個標準的一個考量之下講的具體一點所謂超越食藥署的標準是如何的超越法我想他是整個行政團隊從是哪個行政團隊很早以來在租目前的這個行政團隊還是也用這個標準嗎"},{"start":344.688,"end":372.006,"text":"我想在整體上在針對美豬的訂定的時候已經訂完標準我們在所以我現在今天在委員會裡面我們要談科學就來談科學嘛我現在搞不懂啊外國的豬肉可以台灣的豬肉不可以外國的豬肉0.01以下的就是安全台灣0.01以下的還是不安全"},{"start":373.407,"end":399.432,"text":"理由到底是什麼台灣的是沒有使用是我知道嘛沒有使用跟法規上面不能使用是兩回事嘛剛剛我已經把這個問題的層次剖析得很清楚了嘛消費者的選擇是消費者的選擇啊消費者他當然有選擇的自由啊我們在資訊的提供上有沒有給消費者選擇的自由那是另外一個層次的事情啊"},{"start":400.578,"end":425.349,"text":"我現在的問題是規範上面的標準為什麼有這樣的差別對待這邊跟委員做進度報告因為這一點是當初在農業部定下所謂國內養豬不用萊克多巴胺是提到的是說希望能夠確保台灣豬肉競爭力所以這部分其實是跨部會在提到這件事情你的意思是什麼沒有使用萊克多巴胺會比較有競爭力是嗎"},{"start":428.818,"end":448.814,"text":"否則你剛講那句話根本不成立啊沒有使用萊克多巴胺會比較有競爭力是這樣嗎這個我不是很確定每一個消費者的想要的奇怪這個不是你剛講的嗎還是你剛的意思是說沒有使用萊克多巴胺會降低競爭力這個是農業部提出來的所以不關衛福部的事情嗎"},{"start":449.993,"end":467.761,"text":"這個部分我們是在健康的標準上面的維護所以我今天就跟你討論健康的標準你繞來繞去不敢回答嘛從衛福部的觀點來講0.01ppm以下就是安全的嘛是嗎是吧我們在邊境查查的時候一直用這樣的標準是"},{"start":468.683,"end":495.305,"text":"那你在邊境查查為什麼用這個標準因為這個標準以下是安全的嘛 對嗎那相對我們在國內的後市場端等等的國內的查查也一樣的用同樣的標準你的意思是說在國內也是用一樣的標準對 我們都沒有查到目前是會檢出的所以如果在國內裡面查到0.001ppm的話在法規上面是允許的嗎我講的是本國的豬肉在法規上面是允許的嗎"},{"start":497.35,"end":525.984,"text":"0.001ppm就像現在澳洲豬腳查到的量是一樣的目前是不行目前是不行嘛對嘛所以我就在問你嘛差別對待的理由在哪裡嘛這邊跟委員特別說明了當初其實應該是在農業部訂下這樣子特別提到了這樣一段話他是提到說為確保台灣豬肉競爭力台灣豬絕對不使用瘦肉精對嘛所以我就問你嘛確保台灣豬肉競爭力是什麼意思嘛"},{"start":527.15,"end":547.473,"text":"奇怪打高空講一些空話講一些一般人民聽得懂的好不好什麼叫提升台灣豬肉有競爭力就代表是說不用萊克多巴胺比較有競爭力嘛是不是這樣是嗎還是農業部這句話什麼意思作為衛福部的官員其實你也不是很清楚"},{"start":549.04,"end":568.45,"text":"這個部分的確我們尊重跨部會農業部的說法對啊 所以如果連你都看不懂的話一般的消費者怎麼看得懂連我們衛福部的官員都看不懂啊一般的消費者怎麼會看得懂啊還是我們現在在政府當官的"},{"start":570.171,"end":583.716,"text":"專門講抽象的打太極講虛無縹緲的搞到農業部那句話是什麼意思連衛福部的官員都聽不懂那一般的人看得懂嗎一般的人看得懂嗎我打開天窗說亮話台灣豬絕不使用瘦肉精提升國產豬肉競爭力為什麼因為消費者不希望有嘛"},{"start":597.981,"end":600.502,"text":"旅遊就是這樣嘛這有什麼好閃躲的本來就是這個樣子嘛那為什麼一般的消費者不喜歡有來濟的大家會擔心嘛將心比心嘛站在一般人的觀點來思考這個問題嘛這個事情有這麼複雜嗎為了要幫一個奇怪的政策辯護繞來繞去繞來繞去"},{"start":626.122,"end":640.385,"text":"為什麼要做這樣的宣示就是希望台灣的消費者安心 事情就這麼簡單嘛部長我說的對不對從民眾的立場來講 應該是這樣會比國內比較有競爭力你覺得消費者會關心台灣的豬肉有沒有競爭力喔消費者關心的是台灣的豬肉好不好吃 安不安全"},{"start":652.563,"end":666.063,"text":"是不是他們會比較傾向於買這種對嘛那你覺得消費者應該要有資的權利嗎到底有還沒有消費者有沒有權利知道當然要有資的權利當然要有資的權利嘛所以如果我驗出的話應不應該要標示"},{"start":668.442,"end":695.063,"text":"我們標示原產地就知道...你這樣子...部長你這樣回答問題很危險你標的原產地就知道原料的原產地不是啦,這樣風險非常的高啦因為有的澳洲的有用,有的沒有用嘛那消費者在意的是什麼消費者在意的是說到底有用沒有用嘛剛剛你也承認啊,說消費者應該有吃的權利啊所以我才問你啊,是不是應該要標示啊"},{"start":696.223,"end":721.376,"text":"阿你覺得應不應該標示現在的國內國外的牛豬都是一體試用就是原料原產地的標誌這樣子這個事情未來會不會改變這個事情未來會不會改變現在大家擔心的是第二個層次的事情了啦原產地的標誌會不會堅持我們目前就是啊我知道目前是這樣我的意思是會不會繼續堅持下去啊譬如說美國認為這個是非關稅"},{"start":727.114,"end":736.824,"text":"那要求台灣改衛福部的立場會不會鬆動衛福部的立場就是站在維護人民的健康跟食安所以會不會鬆動"},{"start":740.21,"end":758.578,"text":"當然還是人民的利益跟國家的發展這個是我們考量的你講的很有藝術啦我拜託你講一些庶民聽得懂的話啦美國要求原產地標示拿掉台灣政府立場會不會鬆動會還是不會"},{"start":761.328,"end":786.372,"text":"你有比較有氣魄的說絕對不會鬆動我跟台灣人民保證衛福部的立場很堅定我們為了要捍衛台灣消費者的權益這件事情的立場我們絕對不鬆動你這樣說就好了嘛衛福部一定保證我們一定要堅持食安至上那至於說那個所以原產地標示你會不會堅持我們就按照這個根據國際的標準的一個"},{"start":790.513,"end":813.332,"text":"的規定我們按規定來處理啊所以現在的規定是什麼現在的規定是什麼現在的規定就是原料原產地要標示嘛啊這個規定會不會變動會不會隨著美方的壓力而變動其實大家在意的就是這個問題嘛你講的支支吾吾的你直接回答問題有這麼難嗎還是上面有交代這個事情不可以承諾"},{"start":815.017,"end":842.227,"text":"是有交代是嗎?沒有啦,你如果有交代我就算了啦因為我為難你沒有意思嘛這沒有交代,我們只是按照大家的...所以如果沒有交代,部長就不用擔心你比較氣派在這邊就承諾,我承諾原產地的標示我們現在的標準絕對不會鬆動,好不好因為政府是一體的啦,尊重各個...所以是會有哪個部會有意見?"},{"start":843.925,"end":870.919,"text":"那這個我也不清楚我們就是一起來討論站在人民第一國家至上的立場我相信含口號都非常會部長真的辛苦真的要擔任這個部長真的很辛苦要想出各式各樣抽象的詞來迴避問題但是我不為難你我只表達一個立場過去"},{"start":874.229,"end":882.132,"text":"我們為了國際經貿情勢台灣人讓不過台灣人讓不過為什麼我說是台灣人讓不過從我剛質詢的第一個問題就清楚呈現出來我們讓不過結果換到什麼這個是現在大家在問的問題這是現在大家在問的問題"},{"start":895.647,"end":919.914,"text":"現在我們要不要退第二步這個是現在大家關心的問題從我得到民間社會絕大多數的反應認為原產定的標示退無可退不能再退了我希望這些人民的聲音部長要放在心裡面好不好可以嗎你沒有發現我已經退一步沒有讓你承諾了"},{"start":924.693,"end":931.779,"text":"我簡單的要你把這句話放在心裡面,這樣沒有很困難吧?黃委員的話,我永遠都放在心裡好啦好啦,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1412,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（14時14分）謝謝召委，麻煩請部長和長照司司長。"],["主席：部長、祝司長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：本席還沒有開始問，時間就開始跑了。真的啊！本席還在等，可是時間就開始跑了！沒有關係啦！只是善意提醒而已！在開始今天質詢的主題之前，本席先請教一下祝司長。司長，現在休息時間還有要同仁深蹲嗎？"],["祝司長健芳：沒有，那個事件發生之後就先停止了。"],["黃委員國昌：先停止？以後會繼續嗎？"],["祝司長健芳：現在同仁都是……"],["黃委員國昌：都是怎麼樣？"],["祝司長健芳：有一些是放音樂之後，他們就會自己站起來。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦！同仁如果是自願做的話，沒有人會禁止嘛！像本席晚上如果要去健身房深蹲，那也是我的選擇，但這是自己要做深蹲，和上面長官用逼迫的方式不同。可能從你的角度來說，這樣說太強烈了，你用鼓勵……"],["祝司長健芳：我們真的是鼓勵。"],["黃委員國昌：對，沒有關係啦！各方有各方的說法嘛！現在本席要確定一件事情，你還有繼續鼓勵同仁做深蹲嗎？"],["祝司長健芳：基本上已經沒有了。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有了？"],["祝司長健芳：對。"],["黃委員國昌：你會不會再要求同仁比伏地挺身？"],["祝司長健芳：那個真的是……"],["黃委員國昌：誤會？"],["祝司長健芳：對，沒有這樣的事。"],["黃委員國昌：好，你不會這樣做嗎？"],["祝司長健芳：本來就沒有這樣做。"],["黃委員國昌：未來也不會嗎？"],["祝司長健芳：當然不會，健康是自己的。"],["邱部長泰源：未來也不會啦！"],["黃委員國昌：本席只是要這個承諾啦！衛福部的調查報告出來之後，各界有很多指教，本席相信部長有看到啦！相信司長也有看到。本席今天之所以問這個問題，不是要揭以前的瘡疤，是要確保這件事情不會再發生。"],["邱部長泰源：沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：部長可以承諾嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好。進入今天的主題，有關豬肉含有萊克多巴胺，很多委員都很關心，今天有通過一項臨時提案，本席也看到了。從所謂的客觀可接受的健康風險管理來說，到底含有多少萊克多巴胺的劑量是客觀可接受，對人體不會造成傷害？"],["姜署長至剛：這部分由我來向委員說明。國內針對牛和豬，牛肉和其他可食部分是0.01ppm，豬肉和其他可食部分是0.01ppm。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這是客觀可接受的健康風險嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：很多毒理專家、食安專家以及……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這些專家所建立的標準，衛福部是接受的？"],["姜署長至剛：當初經過討論，後來是有通過這樣的標準，食藥署要按照這樣的基準管理。"],["黃委員國昌：對。所以請你針對問題回答，0.01ppm是衛福部代表政府的立場，訂定的客觀可接受的風險嘛！是嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以在這個劑量之下，對人體健康不會有傷害嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：沒有證據特別提到它的傷害性。"],["黃委員國昌：是，目前國內養豬可以使用萊克多巴胺嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：目前國內是沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼國內禁止使用？"],["姜署長至剛：這對……"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛你不是說0.01ppm是客觀的標準、是科學的標準、是專家討論以後的標準？那本席就不懂了，在臺灣，百分之百禁用萊克多巴胺的理由是什麼？"],["姜署長至剛：就我個人的……"],["黃委員國昌：是因為臺灣的豬肉一旦含有萊克多巴胺，不管劑量有多少，都對健康有風險嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我想應該不是這樣子的……"],["黃委員國昌：那是什麼？"],["姜署長至剛：那是在當初的背景之下，希望對……"],["黃委員國昌：當初是什麼背景？"],["姜署長至剛：因為國內的豬肉大概占90%，相對於進口的量，在有可能允許的情況之下，經過競合之後，提供國人不一樣的選擇，這大概是當初的……"],["黃委員國昌：市場上所謂的不一樣選擇，這都是消費者的選擇，和國家法令規範的標準是兩回事，不要混為一談。您今天做為專家、政務官，本席希望你能代表政府的立場告訴全臺灣的人民，客觀可接受的專家標準到底是什麼？現在本席不懂的是，如果政府的標準是認為0.01ppm是客觀可接受的風險，為什麼國內的豬肉禁止使用萊克多巴胺？因為只要不超過0.01ppm就好啦！不是這樣嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：這個議題思考的層次，可能超越食藥署訂定的安全標準，是在這樣的考量之下。"],["黃委員國昌：說具體一點。所謂的超越食藥署的標準，是如何的超越法？"],["姜署長至剛：我想它是整個行政團隊從……"],["黃委員國昌：是哪個行政團隊？"],["姜署長至剛：很早以來，在美豬……"],["黃委員國昌：目前這個行政團隊仍然是沿用這個標準嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我想整體上在美豬進口時就已經訂完標準，我們在……"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！因此，今天在委員會我們要談科學就來談科學嘛！我現在搞不懂啊！外國的豬肉可以，臺灣的豬肉不可以？外國豬肉在0.01ppm以下就是安全的，臺灣豬肉在0.01ppm以下的還是不安全，理由到底是什麼？"],["姜署長至剛：臺灣的豬肉是沒有使用、不准使用……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我知道嘛！沒有使用與法規上不能使用是兩回事，剛剛我已經把這個問題的層次剖析得很清楚了。消費者的選擇是消費者的選擇，消費者當然有選擇的自由，我們在資訊的提供上有沒有給消費者選擇的自由，那是另外一個層次的事情。我現在的問題是、我現在的問題是，為什麼在規範的標準上有這樣的差別對待？"],["姜署長至剛：在此向委員做進一步的報告，當初農業部訂下這一點，國內養豬不用萊克多巴胺是希望能夠確保臺灣豬肉的競爭力，這個部分其實是跨部會時提到這件事情……"],["黃委員國昌：你的意思是什麼？沒有使用萊克多巴胺會比較有競爭力，是嗎？否則，你剛剛講的那句話根本不成立啊？沒有使用萊克多巴胺會比較有競爭力，是這樣嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我不是很確定每一個消費者想要的……"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪，這不是你剛剛講的嗎？或者你剛剛的意思是沒有使用萊克多巴胺會降低競爭力？"],["姜署長至剛：這是農業部提出來的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以不關衛福部的事情嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：關於這個部分，我們是在健康的標準上來維護……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我就是與你討論健康的標準，但你繞來繞去就是不敢回答嘛！從衛福部的觀點來講，0.01ppm以下就是安全的，是嗎？是吧？"],["姜署長至剛：我們在邊境查察時一直是用這樣的標準去執行。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼你們在邊境查察要使用這個標準，因為在這個標準以下是安全的，對嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：相對的，我們在國內後市場端等等的查察也是採取同樣的標準。"],["黃委員國昌：你的意思是在國內也用一樣的標準？"],["姜署長至剛：是，我們都沒有查到，目前都是未檢出的狀況。"],["黃委員國昌：如果在國內查到超出0.001ppm的話，在法規上是允許的嗎？我講的是本國的豬肉，在法規上是允許的嗎？0.001ppm，就像現在澳洲豬腳查到的量是一樣的？"],["姜署長至剛：目前是不行，因為國內……"],["黃委員國昌：目前是不行嘛！對嘛！所以我就問你，差別對待的理由在哪裡？"],["姜署長至剛：這邊向委員特別說明，當初應該是農業部訂下的規定，他們特別提到一段話：為確保臺灣豬肉競爭力，臺灣豬絕對不使用瘦肉精……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我就問你，確保臺灣豬肉競爭力是什麼意思？奇怪！打高空！講一些空話！講一些一般人民聽得懂的，好不好？什麼是提升臺灣豬肉的競爭力？是不是表示不用萊克多巴胺比較有競爭力，是不是這樣？是嗎？或者農業部的這句話是什麼意思？作為衛福部的官員，你其實也不是很清楚。"],["姜署長至剛：的確，關於這個部分，我們尊重跨部會農業部的說法。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！如果連你都看不懂的話，一般消費者怎麼看得懂？連我們衛福部的官員都看不懂，一般的消費者怎麼會看得懂？或是現在政府部門當官的都專門講抽象的、打太極、講虛無飄渺的，搞到連衛福部官員都聽不懂農業部的那句話是什麼意思，這樣一般人看得懂嗎？一般人看得懂嗎？我們打開天窗說亮話，臺灣豬絕不使用瘦肉精，提升國產豬肉競爭力，為什麼？因為消費者不希望有嘛！理由就是這樣，有什麼好閃躲的？本來就是這個樣子嘛！為什麼一般消費者不喜歡有萊劑的？因為大家會擔心，所以要將心比心，站在一般人的觀點來思考這個問題。這件事情有這麼複雜嗎？為了要幫一個奇怪的政策辯護，繞來繞去、繞來繞去，為什麼要做這樣的宣示？就是希望臺灣的消費者安心，事情就是這麼簡單嘛！部長，我說的對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：從民眾的立場來講，應該是這樣做在國內會比較有競爭力。"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得消費者會關心臺灣的豬肉有沒有競爭力嗎？消費者關心的是臺灣豬肉好不好吃、安不安全，是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：他們會比較傾向於買這種……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！你覺得消費者應該要有知的權利嗎？到底是有或沒有？消費者有沒有權利知道？"],["邱部長泰源：當然要有知的權利。"],["黃委員國昌：當然要有知的權利，因此，如果有驗出的話，應不應該要標示？"],["邱部長泰源：我們標示原產地就知道它的……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，你這樣回答問題很危險喔！你標示原產地就知道……"],["邱部長泰源：原料的原產地。"],["黃委員國昌：不是，這樣風險非常的高啦！因為同樣是澳洲的生產地，但有的有使用、有的沒有使用，然而消費者在意的是什麼？消費者在意的是到底有沒有使用嘛！剛剛你也承認消費者應該要有知的權利，所以我才問你是否應該要標示，你認為應不應該要標示？"],["邱部長泰源：現在國內外的牛豬都是一體適用原料原產地的標示。"],["黃委員國昌：這個事情在未來是否會改變？這個事情在未來是否會改變？現在大家擔心的是第二個層次的事情，也就是原產地的標示是否會堅持？"],["邱部長泰源：我們目前就衛福部……"],["黃委員國昌：是啊！我知道目前是這樣，但我的意思是之後會不會堅持下去？譬如美國認為這是非關稅障礙，要求臺灣改變作法，衛福部的立場會不會鬆動？"],["邱部長泰源：衛福部的立場就是要維護人民的健康與食安。"],["黃委員國昌：所以會不會鬆動？"],["邱部長泰源：人民的利益與國家的發展是我們考量的，當然我們也是遵照……"],["黃委員國昌：你講得很有藝術，我拜託你講一些庶民聽得懂的話啦！美國要求將原產地標示拿掉，臺灣政府的立場會不會鬆動？會或不會？你就有氣魄的講，絕對不會鬆動！你可以向臺灣人民保證，衛福部的立場很堅定，為了要捍衛臺灣消費者的權益，這件事情的立場絕對不鬆動！你只要這樣講就好了嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：衛福部保證一定會堅持食安至上，至於……"],["黃委員國昌：你對於原產地標示會不會堅持？"],["邱部長泰源：我們就按照這個……"],["黃委員國昌：按照什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：根據國際的標準，我們按照規定來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：現在的規定是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：我們按照規定來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：現在的規定是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：現在的規定就是原料原產地……"],["黃委員國昌：要標示嘛！這個規定會不會變動？會不會隨著美方的壓力而變動，其實大家在意的就是這個問題嘛！你講得支支吾吾的，直接回答問題有這麼難嗎？還是上面有交代，不可以承諾這件事情？是有交代嗎？如果你說是有交代，那麼我就算了，因為我為難你沒有意思嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：沒有交代，我們只是按照大家的……"],["黃委員國昌：如果沒有交代，部長就不必擔心，你就有氣魄一點，直接就在這裡承諾，現在原產地標示的標準絕對不會鬆動，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：因為政府是一體的……"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我們要尊重大家討論的……"],["黃委員國昌：所以是哪個部會有意見？"],["邱部長泰源：這個我也不清楚，我們就是一起討論，站在人民第一、國家至上的立場……"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是，我相信啦！喊口號真的都非常會啦！部長，真的辛苦了！擔任這個部長真的很辛苦，必須想出各式各樣抽象的詞語來迴避問題，但是我不為難你，我只是要表達一個立場，過去我們為了國際經貿情勢，臺灣人讓步過、臺灣人讓步過，為什麼我說臺灣人讓步過？從剛才我質詢的第一個問題就清楚呈現出來，我們讓步過，結果換到了什麼？這是現在大家要問的問題、這是現在大家要問的問題。現在我們要不要退第二步？這是現在大家關心的問題。根據我從民間社會獲得的絕大多數反映，認為原產地的標示退無可退，不能再退了，我希望部長要將這些人民的聲音放在心裡面，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：一定放在心裡。"],["黃委員國昌：你沒發現我已經退一步，沒有要你承諾了，只是簡單地要你把這些話放在心裡面，這樣沒有很困難吧？"],["邱部長泰源：黃委員的話，我永遠都放在心裡。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃委員、謝謝部長，辛苦了。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員顏寬恒、張嘉郡、伍麗華及翁曉玲所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員顏寬恒書面質詢：","澳洲進口豬腳驗出萊克多巴胺，如何加強肉品查驗專報","委員：請教邱泰源部長，5/6日新增2批澳洲進口「冷凍豬腳」檢出萊克多巴胺，目前累計3批，公布的這2批「冷凍豬腳」跟首批萊豬為同一製造廠，但屬不同進口貿易商，請教衛福部，未來我們有可能針對這家廠商的進口至台灣的豬肉進行逐批查驗嗎？","委員：本席要在幫大家恢復記憶一下這份農業部部公文，清清楚楚的公告，國內禁止製造、調劑、輸入、輸出、販賣「乙型受體素」也就是所謂的瘦肉精！","但是台灣的豬肉市場已經被民進黨政府給破壞了！國內禁止使用，國外的廠商卻可以進口，但是進口之後流向不明，讓國內的民眾已經失去信心了，衛福部真的責無旁貸，不是只有做一個網站草草了事！","委員：國內的民眾都很擔心，豬肉真的是國內民眾經常食用的食材，查驗是不是有疏漏，本席認為民眾對於政府的查驗能力一定是打了一個大大的問號！","請教部長，也跟標章有關，過去政府推出使用台灣豬的標章，上網就可以下載，大家都可以取得，也因此爆發了不肖的廠商用進口豬肉，但是卻還是貼著使用台灣豬的標章！","請教部長，這是國外市場對於沒有使用萊克多巴胺的標章貼紙，我們有沒有辦法做到這樣的標章？政府認證的標章！","委員：民眾的食用安全絕對是要擺在第一的，民進黨政府既然要開放進口含有萊克多巴胺的豬肉，我們當然就要要求查驗要做到100%，同時保障國內的豬肉業者，讓他們可以有天然台灣豬的專屬標章！","本席建議，衛福部應該要跨部會研議，比照國外，有不含萊克多巴胺的天然台灣豬肉標章！","既然我們國內有出現含有瘦肉精的豬肉，就應該讓乾淨、天然的豬肉作出區別，方法就是有認證、專屬的標章！讓民眾可以買的安心、吃得安心！"],["委員張嘉郡書面質詢：","一、近期連續驗出三批含有萊克多巴胺的豬肉產品，政府卻拒絕公布流向資訊，也未要求標示，甚至可能流入學校營養午餐，影響學童健康。請問部長：政府能否承諾公布萊豬流向，保障民眾知情權與選擇權？","二、目前邊境僅採2%至10%的抽批查驗，卻已驗出多批問題產品，若在低抽驗率下已連續驗出含藥豬肉，請問部長能否承諾恢復「100%逐批查驗」制度？若否，請說明為何仍認為現行標準足以保護食安。","三、國內豬農嚴格遵守禁用萊劑規定，政府卻放任含藥豬肉進口、資訊不透明，請問部長是否認為此舉對本國養豬產業公平？是否願意提出具體配套保障產業發展與民眾健康，以釐清萊豬進口與國人健康保障之間的政策優先順序？"],["委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe書面質詢：","案由：本院委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe，長期關心山地原鄉長照資源，多次質詢家托24小時與住宿式機構之佈建情形，值長照2.0檢討與長照3.0推動之際，本人提出以下質詢，請於1周內提出書面報告回復本席，特向衛福部提出質詢。","說明：","一、長照3.0對於山地原鄉長照有何規劃？","二，本次衛福部專題報告第一頁提及「積極布建各類長照服務資源」包含長照ABC、居家服務資源、日間照護中心、家庭托顧服務、住宿式機構，請問上述服務在山地原鄉的建置數量？衛福部有無評估目前各項服務數量在山地原鄉地區是否足夠？如何強化各項資源在山地原鄉的佈建，確保山地原住民族人在長照3.0能獲得適當的長照資源？","三本席多次關心山地原鄉未被納入「長照住宿式服務資源獎助布建區域」，目前是否已納入？依據衛福部網站114.05.02公布之獎勵布建住宿式長照機構資源計畫-114年度待獎勵區域，仍未見山地原鄉，請問在長照3.0裡對於山地原鄉住宿式機構有何規劃？","四，關於山地原鄉長照住宿式機構，牡丹鄉公所願意提供臨199縣道之適當公有土地做為基地，爭取衛福部補助，建置結合長照（含住宿型）、衛生所及醫療之設施，以供牡丹鄉族人得就近享受長照及醫療資源。請問衛福部是否願意支持山地原鄉首個住宿式機構落腳屏東牡丹鄉？","五、「家托24小時」為本席從第10屆起即積極推動，請問目前家托24小時在山地原鄉的辦理情形。"],["委員翁曉玲書面質詢：","案由：本院翁曉玲委員，有鑑於萊克多巴胺豬肉（萊豬）流向攸關民眾食品安全與健康，特於立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議，向衛生福利部提出書面質詢。","說明：為保障民眾食品安全與健康，請於衛生福利部就以下問題提出說明，並於兩週內回覆：","一、　貴部曾表示，萊豬風險低、產品符合進口標準即不公開其流向資料；「在容許值範圍內，即使吃一輩子也不會超標」。為避免民眾恐慌，讓國人充分了解政府的風險管理依據與科學判斷依憑，請提供相關評估報告與統計資料，以釐清此一說法的依據。","二、消費者有知情權與選擇權利，食品是否含有萊劑應充分揭露，就萊豬比照基因改造食品，於產品成分中明確標示含有萊克多巴胺，或直接於豬肉外包裝上加註「含有萊劑」等警示，我國之立場或政策。"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於2周內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本次會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（14時30分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳瑩","廖偉翔","陳培瑜","李坤城","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","劉書彬","劉建國","黃國昌","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲"],"page_start":163,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「長照2.0執行情形檢討及3.0未來規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長就「澳洲進口豬腳驗出含萊克多巴胺，如何加強肉品食安查驗，讓民眾\n放心」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00004"}}},{"id":"161135","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161135","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c12f18b6b44bc8d768bf088656e97d3403c59ceea3ce0d89f70ca9a1ea8bb929be5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"13:54:30 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麻煩先請部長跟呂次長部長好 次長好我上個月到成功的時候我在路邊吃海產結果有一個阿公突然走到我前面然後他袖子捲起來我以為他要打我 嚇一跳結果"},{"start":38.126,"end":67.191,"text":"他是露出他手腕上面的手錶然後很得意的把他老婆也叫來說他們就是上次我在就是之前我在2022年有幫這個智慧手環計畫有在花園封兵事辦我們有爭取嘛那2023年我又在幫台東的這個成功和長兵的長者在爭取這個智慧手環的部分那現在目前也都在實施當中"},{"start":68.591,"end":94.284,"text":"剛好這對老夫妻他們是其實女兒一個嫁到台北一個嫁到澳洲剛好放假可能回來掃墓也跟我講說因為有智慧手環他們真的很放心他們住在偏鄉生活的這些長輩們真的幫助非常的大"},{"start":95.084,"end":121.812,"text":"所以這樣的一個照顧長者的計畫在偏鄉是相當重要的那麼在去年12月5號衛環委員會也已經要求衛福部要規劃臺東花蓮全縣來辦理智慧手環的計畫的時候部長有特別指示說要在一個月內完成評估那我後來也在預算審查的時候提案要求今年要公告辦理那部長你知道現在的進度嗎"},{"start":125.026,"end":151.522,"text":"首先我覺得這樣 剛剛那個照片非常的感人真的 那也覺得這樣的一個成效 很敬佩委員這樣來推動真的是照顧了偏鄉老人 那怎麼樣來把它擴大是我們一直在思考的那這是不是義福會副執行長我再鄭重提醒一下 部長你上次就是我們是在12月5號的未還委員會 那今天已經幾月幾號了"},{"start":156.414,"end":181.069,"text":"今年已經5月8號那整整已經過了半年又三天了那要不要講一下你們的進度我們衣服回來報告一下首先的確這個委員非常關心這個成功和長兵這個我們的叫做事辦的這個計畫難怪這個委員名義這麼高這個非常這個受到民眾的這個愛戴"},{"start":182.386,"end":204.215,"text":"我覺得這些話都不重要我比較關心他們什麼時候有手環可以帶對那這個計畫就是剛剛我提有特別講到這是一個試辦的計畫我們從去年1月開始做做到現在才做一年三個月那這個為什麼叫試辦呢因為這個計畫目前我們是跟長照師爭取3500萬的經費來做到目前為止才收案大概將近1200個人"},{"start":205.876,"end":222.593,"text":"那在實施上的確還是有一些民眾剛剛這兩位民眾是非常滿意可是也有一些民眾他是就是他覺得這個科技的這個部分他可能不太會使用他可能去種田的時候不方便帶著啦或者說帶很久都忘了充電啊什麼有這些這樣的問題這些是很小的問題啊"},{"start":225.676,"end":245.357,"text":"我也有跟台東部立醫院的院長我們都有下箱後來有下箱去宣導嘛其實這個都小問題啊是是是但是宣導不知道怎麼用宣導一下而已台東王院長也有告訴我們說他這個事辦計畫他兩年完成就到今年底完成的時候會有一個完整的評估報告"},{"start":246.078,"end":271.287,"text":"那所以我們想說既然是你現在是在打部長的臉嗎因為部長有跟我講說就是你們一個月內完成評估你現在上來講兩年這樣誰說了算啊因為我們確實有進去開始評估就是說這個台東縣這個超過65歲的老人就有4萬多人那現在將近1100萬人就花了3500萬"},{"start":272.908,"end":296.995,"text":"不好意思 你講到這個 講到重點了 錢我們台東人的命比較不值錢 是嗎當然不是 當然不是 只是說政府經費一定要編預算 預先編才會有經費出來嘛那你臨時要生出這麼多錢 有時候不太容易這樣子啊我看你很不會說話部長還是次長 你要不要救他一下 我完全聽不下去"},{"start":299.366,"end":312.893,"text":"就是所以你結論什麼是我們不要辦呢還是怎麼樣不是我們繼續把這個吃飯計畫把它完整評估完整然後再來那如果兩年後還有人不會用我們這個計畫就來取消是嗎"},{"start":314.737,"end":340.494,"text":"你在評估的過程當中你發現問題你們有沒有立刻去解決你們有沒有嘗試著去解決發現問題我們再來修正啊 譬如說今天我去我下鄉去看的時候我都有發現說因為你們如果假如是老人家不會使用他是因為講一下你沒有去講啊那畫中那麼多的部落你不會請說有族語的人去講一下"},{"start":341.374,"end":366.356,"text":"去示範一下我那天去了那幾個部落那文件站講一下大家就都會了啊那表示在試用帶這麼久的過程當中你們都沒有好好去講去教嘛啊老人家多花一點時間講慢一點給他重複個兩三次也沒有關係啊但是這過程你們有沒有做呢我覺得這個要檢討的好像是你們自己耶不是檢討那些老人會不會用耶"},{"start":366.976,"end":390.724,"text":"不是我的意思是說我們現在光做這1200人台中醫院就已經請了9位專門的人力額外多請9個人來負責輔導幫忙這些民眾來使用就是讓這個民眾在使用上可以更順利所以我們有逐步在改善那因為一開始是不是拜託我們再給我們一點時間我們再努力一下這樣子市長有沒有要補充什麼你負責督導這個業務"},{"start":393.971,"end":405.995,"text":"還是應該部長來直接做裁示好我想那個就趕快去檢討那個在推動當中不能說到最後才檢討部長我先跟你講實際的狀況啦在從去年12月"},{"start":411.698,"end":425.192,"text":"5號我質詢完而且您才是之後呢截至一直到昨天這整整幾個月當中我不知道你們衛福部總共聚集在一起針對本期這個要求討論了多少次"},{"start":426.833,"end":442.493,"text":"有嗎 這個簡單問題醫護會也把這個當成很重要你們很抗拒 我得到的訊息是你們非常抗拒啊就像當初在一開始最初在示範的時候也是大家踢皮球嘛"},{"start":443.895,"end":465.313,"text":"啊踢來踢去後來是那個後來是薛部長就指示嘛指示就清楚了所以我不知道這過程現在是不是還有說誰人力不足然後誰錢不夠然後想要又踢給誰有沒有別人來做啊不然你不是一個月你有拍板定案說誰負責就好了做不下去就可能能力有問題"},{"start":466.691,"end":491.867,"text":"這個是麻煩衣服會在負責衣服會的示範計畫現在是部立台東醫院在推那也增加了有9位人力在那邊我想我們即刻檢討部長我覺得你可能不是很清楚因為主要這個計畫當然戴手錶是簡單的事但是"},{"start":493.448,"end":507.255,"text":"有狀況的時候訊息通報了那中間的這個接收的這個單位他必須要立刻去通知來急救的單位那這個中間這個單位他必須要24小時所以他們聘了9個人24小時的在輪"},{"start":511.337,"end":532.068,"text":"那當然衣服會不會擔心我現在全線花蓮台東辦下去之後我這九個人我要擴大到多少人第一個人力他們會擔心再來這個錢是不是要增加那這個部分其實我覺得都有可以替大家省錢省人力的方法你們有沒有好好去想一想"},{"start":533.646,"end":558.816,"text":"我們是不是可以配合保全 是不是可以配合村里長是不是可以配合造福源有的可以在晚上分擔一點 有的白天分擔一點都也沒有講到重點 沒有去動腦筋去想說只有說我們內部人不夠 錢不夠就是不夠我才要在這裡提出這樣的計畫難道我們在花東的這些老人家 人命就比較不值錢嗎"},{"start":559.676,"end":580.798,"text":"你知道全縣這樣辦理起來如果我是獨居的或者是就是說單獨的那種老夫老妻沒有子女照顧的優先這種來處理的話全部全縣加起來才多少錢欸可能五億不到欸你花三億救台東救花蓮這些老人家很貴嗎"},{"start":583.257,"end":598.283,"text":"我們怕人家那個月台掉下去都可以花那麼多錢去做一個那個那個什麼柵欄什麼連垂下來了啊我們這個可以救更多人這個錢為什麼不花那個比例換算起來就比月台那個還便宜是的你們這樣拖時間真的沒道理耶一轉眼半年又過去了不好意思啊"},{"start":607.789,"end":632.024,"text":"我想每一條生命不管它是在都市偏鄉都是我們應該要非常愛惜重視的所以不會特別而且我們一定我們在醫界其實也是在偏鄉點子都保障的而且有額外的那個所以都是那個一定是關心的那所以這個部分我們馬上來檢討那個哪個地方推動有障礙"},{"start":632.944,"end":650.593,"text":"一個好的計畫也是要去克服很多的困難那克服的就是一種經驗就是一種累積智慧那也許是一個很就形成一個好的模式我們應該往正面來來處理部長那個我再提示一件事就是說這個經費在因為畢竟"},{"start":655.916,"end":684.435,"text":"我們參考一下啦2023年薛部長當時的財事後來這個是以長照基金來辦理那當初那個封兵的他是用那個花東基金來辦理那因為這個是照顧長者其實也跟長照有關係所以用長照基金也是非常的合理所以這個部分你們也可以朝這個方向去延續去努力我們馬上來給你跟委員報告我請示召委啊因為"},{"start":685.576,"end":714.696,"text":"黑起來太不像話 用掉我太多時間我本來還有一題有沒有要讓我問這樣子蛤食藥署的我要說萊克多巴胺 點一下 你要讓我問嗎幾分鐘我也是說不完好啦 我講一個重要的概念那 昭緯先請坐 我怕你太辛苦了"},{"start":717.742,"end":732.54,"text":"好 我們就講快一點那因為現在講這個也感謝昭緯安排這個澳洲豬肉檢測萊克多巴胺這樣的題目那我想就是說這個議題它最終的核心價值到底是什麼"},{"start":734.042,"end":753.873,"text":"那因為我們其實大家都可以不同有不同的想法但是本席是認為說這是要凸顯一個我們大家可以接受的健康風險的一個概念因為我們訂了一個0.01ppm的檢測標準那我相信這是衛福部跟食藥署很慎重考慮之後的可接受風險"},{"start":754.753,"end":774.391,"text":"那江署長也公開對媒體表示說每天吃健康也無虞那我相信說江署長的專業一定是有所依據才會發表這麼有信心的喊話那問題的重點是在於民眾還是會擔心那如果有零減豬的豬肉大家肯定還是會優先去購買"},{"start":776.012,"end":801.94,"text":"那我這樣講沒錯啦好那可接受的健康風險可分為說主觀的跟客觀可以接受的那衛福部當你們訂出0.01ppm的檢測標準的時候對民眾而言它就是一個客觀的可接受的健康風險但是呢健康是無價的那健康當然他們是不可替代所以人民最重要的資產這不是你政府說安全我們大家就可以放心的標準"},{"start":802.64,"end":821.22,"text":"那對於這些有害健康的這個任何風險任何理性的民眾都不會願意去承擔嘛那台灣民眾他們比較在意的就是說我們大家最在意的是一個零減出的這個健康風險的一個概念嘛也就是說主觀可接受的這個健康風險其實對很多民眾來講他是零"},{"start":823.362,"end":845.828,"text":"那孫署長我這樣講也沒錯嘛那到底這也就是為什麼說這個議題明明有的時候就沒有超標你們也都放行了可是還是要你們來立法院做專報嘛然後接受每一位委員對你們的質詢啊我想大家都很想知道說對於這些檢測出來的豬肉即使是放行了"},{"start":846.468,"end":861.544,"text":"那它的流向流向何去何從大家都不希望買到這批豬肉所以你們回答各界的這個態度不要只是告訴民眾說這些豬肉是多麼的合乎標準多麼的無害因為如果你們是這樣的態度"},{"start":862.666,"end":879.984,"text":"這個可能有的這個健康的這些風險你們就是在強迫民眾要拋棄這個民眾自己主觀的這些疑慮然後選擇相信你們自認客觀的專業那我想就是說大家在不同的世界"},{"start":880.825,"end":906.236,"text":"不同的語言也就如同這個署長說剛剛署長的這個很一個專業的金句啦客觀又專業的金句就是萊豬殘留量合格每天吃也健康無虞嘛所以同樣的道理對於這個學術文獻上的報告有助於這個民眾他實質來提升的健康效益的食品民眾都有意願想要購買來使用那你們卻是要用這種"},{"start":907.296,"end":927.585,"text":"就是說落伍的天花板標準去認定這些不實誇張宣稱涉及這個醫療效能然後讓我們民眾還有這些業者無所適從嘛那你們就是 這很像是過去那種戒嚴時代對於這個新聞歌曲的政治審查一樣只要提到這個主觀的這些健康效應你們就認為說 啊 嚇我一跳 怎麼嚇壞咧 這種宣傳"},{"start":931.747,"end":946.395,"text":"所以沒有辦法容忍大家對於保健食品的主觀感受我今天是特別點出這些也沒有要跟你們做一些專業上的爭論因為這不同世界不同語言嘛那我現在就是說其實一般民眾不是醫療專業的人員"},{"start":948.516,"end":974.7,"text":"沒有能力沒有那個意圖去宣稱涉及醫療效能這些言論除非說你們對於自己的這個醫療專業是很沒有信心的所以你們不能接受民眾的民眾這些主觀可接受的這些風險是零然後也沒有辦法去接受民眾有權利去購買然後可以提升自己的健康狀態的任何食品也不能接受說民眾可以表達自己使用保健食品的這些心得嘛"},{"start":975.16,"end":993.098,"text":"所以我希望透過今天這樣子的這個討論是凸顯你們說可能有比較有正向幫助健康保健食品然後人民使用後產生主觀的這個健康意識其實是被箝制的啦我要點出這些而且不被不被允許被討論那好結論"},{"start":997.441,"end":1026.317,"text":"之前質詢你們有就是說也有認同本席也願意就是說在這個那時候質詢完兩個月內食品宣傳廣告認定的這個準則你們要修改那我也知道在如火如荼的進行當中那現在就是說那新的準則修訂好之前法規的命令是個過渡時期那過渡時期那你們現在接下來是要用哪個標準去執行"},{"start":1027.077,"end":1033.158,"text":"那新的標準出來 近期或之前被裁罰的可不可以申請退回"},{"start":1034.755,"end":1058.084,"text":"這邊先跟委員進一步的報告謝謝委員進來的一些指導特別對於保健食品的功能性的持續的確我們在署內做了非常非常大幅度的一些去討論希望在範圍之內能把它的語句更精準更能夠回到功能性食品上面的能夠標示所以往這邊走是我們持續在努力的"},{"start":1059.605,"end":1088.406,"text":"至於說裁罰這個部分因為是因為司法性我們是雖然說目前一定是所謂的輔導先行的概念那但是在裁罰部分已經有裁罰的部分可能都在地方的衛生局裡面那你們有沒有辦法在很短期內比如一週內呢你們把你們的那個正面表列那些認定準則啊就是那個比如說得使用的詞句還有得敘述的生理功能的詞句或"},{"start":1089.507,"end":1115.103,"text":"類似詞句的這個類似詞句你們可以都把它列出來嗎因為這好像文字獄一樣中文好像就時間上面我覺得能不能允許多給我們一點時間我覺得因為做一些改變需要稍微更精準一點點的時間那我們會我們盡快有任何的進度都來跟委員這邊跟進一步的一些交流跟溝通我們會所以等一下我確認一下所以你現在是輔導先行嗎"},{"start":1116.564,"end":1142.673,"text":"這個輔導先行是一直以來我們都是輔導先行的那就是說你們以那個新的準則的這個方向去做輔導先行其實是現在的準則也是都是輔導一路輔導先行的好那沒有辦法把類似詞句那個把它詳細列出來我們會盡快的跟委員這邊我們確立之後比較能夠聚焦之後跟委員這邊做完整的好所以未來還有類似詞句這樣的字眼嗎"},{"start":1144.436,"end":1168.733,"text":"呃這些詞句上其實都會有一些修飾之後符合能夠去那你們還是要把它列出來因為我還是回到就是人不一樣的時候你的類似標準就會不一樣就會回到署長用的上次在回答我的質詢的時候用抽象這兩個字但抽象在你罰的時候要明確所以你不能再抽象下去好不好謝謝委員謝謝謝謝陳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1330,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時54分）謝謝主席，麻煩先請部長跟呂次長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["呂次長建德：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好、次長好。我上個月到成功，在路邊吃海產的時候，有一個阿公突然走到我前面，把袖子捲起來，我以為他要打我、嚇了一跳，結果他露出手腕上的手錶，還很得意地把他老婆也叫來，跟我說我在2022年幫他們爭取智慧手環計畫在花蓮豐濱試辦，2023年我又再幫臺東成功和長濱的長者爭取智慧手環計畫，目前也都在實施當中。這對老夫妻的女兒一個嫁到臺北、一個嫁到澳洲，剛好放假……可能是回來掃墓啦！他們也跟我講，因為有這個智慧手環，他們真的很放心，對於在偏鄉生活的長輩們的幫助非常大，所以這樣照顧長者的計畫在偏鄉是相當重要的。","去年12月5日，我在衛環委員會已經要求衛福部規劃在臺東、花蓮全縣辦理智慧手環計畫，那時候部長特別指示，要在1個月內完成評估，我後來也在預算審查的時候提案要求今年公告辦理。部長，那你知道現在的進度嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：首先，我覺得剛剛那個照片非常感人，有這樣的成效，我也很敬佩委員的推動，真的照顧了偏鄉的老人，怎麼擴大是我們一直在思考的，是不是容我請醫福會王副執行長……"],["陳委員瑩：我再鄭重提醒一下部長，上次是在12月5日的衛環委員會，今天已經幾月幾號了？"],["邱部長泰源：5月8日。"],["陳委員瑩：已經5月8日，整整過了半年又3天，要不要講一下你們的進度？"],["邱部長泰源：我請副執行長。"],["王副執行長裕煒：委員好，醫福會來報告一下。首先，委員的確非常關心成功和長濱的試辦計畫，難怪委員民意這麼高，非常受到民眾的愛戴。"],["陳委員瑩：這些話都不重要，我比較關心他們什麼時候有手環可以戴。"],["王副執行長裕煒：關於這個計畫，剛剛我其實特別講到這是一個試辦計畫，我們從去年1月開始做，到現在才1年3個月。為什麼叫試辦計畫呢？因為針對這個計畫，我們是跟長照司爭取3,500萬元的經費，做到目前為止才收案將近1,200人，實施上的確還是有一些民眾……剛剛這兩位民眾是非常滿意，可是也有一些民眾覺得科技產品不太會使用，種田的時候不方便戴著，或者戴很久忘了充電等，有這樣的問題。"],["陳委員瑩：這些是很小的問題啊！我跟部立臺東醫院院長後來也都有下鄉宣導，這些其實都是小問題啊！"],["王副執行長裕煒：是。"],["陳委員瑩：他們只是不知道怎麼用，宣導一下而已。"],["王副執行長裕煒：臺東醫院王院長也告訴我們，這個試辦計畫兩年完成，也就是今年底完成的時候會有一個完整的評估報告，所以我們想，既然……"],["陳委員瑩：你現在是在打部長的臉嗎？部長有跟我講，你們會在1個月內完成評估，而你現在上來講2年？這樣誰說了算啊？"],["王副執行長裕煒：我們確實也已經開始評估，臺東縣超過65歲的老人就有四萬多人，現在將近1,200人就花了3,500萬元。"],["陳委員瑩：啊！不好意思，你這個就講到重點了──錢，我們臺東人的命比較不值錢是嗎？"],["王副執行長裕煒：當然不是，只是政府經費一定要預先編預算才會有經費出來嘛！臨時要生出這麼多錢不太容易啦！"],["陳委員瑩：我覺得你很不會講話！部長、還是次長，你們要不要救他？我完全聽不下去，所以你的結論是什麼？是不要辦？還是要怎麼樣？"],["王副執行長裕煒：我們會繼續把這項試辦計畫完成……"],["陳委員瑩：繼續、評估？"],["王副執行長裕煒：評估完整，然後再……"],["陳委員瑩：那如果兩年後還有人不會用，這個計畫就取消，是嗎？"],["王副執行長裕煒：不是，就是……"],["陳委員瑩：你們在評估的過程中發現問題，有沒有立刻解決？你們有沒有嘗試解決？"],["王副執行長裕煒：發現問題我們再來修正，譬如……"],["陳委員瑩：本席下鄉去看的時候就發現，例如老人家不會使用，其實只是因為沒有人教，但你們也沒有去教。花東那麼多部落，你們不會請會族語的人去教一下、示範一下？本席那天去的時候就在幾個部落文健站說明，最後大家都會了啊！表示在試辦這麼久的過程當中，你們都沒有好好去說明、去教嘛！老人家需要多花一點時間，那就說慢一點，重複兩、三次也沒有關係啊！在這個過程中，你們有沒有做呢？本席覺得要檢討的好像是你們自己耶！而不是檢討那些老人會不會用。"],["王副執行長裕煒：不是的。我的意思是說，我們現在光是做這1,200人，臺中醫院就已經額外多請了9位專門的人力，負責輔導、幫忙這些民眾，讓民眾在使用上可以更順利，我們有在逐步改善。因為現在才剛開始，是不是拜託委員再給我們一點時間？我們再努力一下。"],["陳委員瑩：次長有沒有要補充什麼？因為你負責督導這個業務，還是由部長直接裁示？"],["邱部長泰源：在推動當中就要趕快檢討，不能到最後才檢討。"],["陳委員瑩：部長，本席先告訴你實際的狀況啦！去年12月5日本席質詢完，而且經您裁示之後，一直到昨天，在這幾個月當中，衛福部總共針對本席這個要求討論多少次？有嗎？這是一個簡單的問題。"],["王副執行長裕煒：有。"],["邱部長泰源：醫福會也把這個當成很重要的……"],["王副執行長裕煒：我們一直持續在做這個計畫。"],["陳委員瑩：但是你們很抗拒！本席得到的訊息是你們非常抗拒！就像最初試辦的時候，大家也是互踢皮球，後來是因為薛部長有所指示，所以才有比較清楚的劃分。試辦的過程如何？現在是不是還有人力不足或是誰錢不夠的問題？或者又想踢給別人做？部長，你直接一句話拍板定案由誰負責就好，如果他們做不下去，可能就是能力有問題。"],["邱部長泰源：這件事是麻煩醫福會負責。是不是？"],["王副執行長裕煒：這是醫福會的試辦計畫。"],["邱部長泰源：這是醫福會的試辦計畫，現在是部立臺東醫院在推動，也增加了9位人力，我們會即刻檢討它的困難在哪裡。"],["陳委員瑩：部長，本席覺得你可能不是很清楚，因為這個計畫不是由你主要負責。當然，戴手錶是一件簡單的事，但是有狀況的時候，訊息通報了，中間的接收單位必須立刻通知急救單位，因為這個接收單位必須24小時待命，所以他們聘了9個人24小時輪值。醫福會當然會擔心啊！等花蓮、臺東全縣辦理之後，要從9個人擴大到多少人？第一個，他們會擔心人力嘛！再來，錢是不是要增加？針對這個部分，其實有一些可以替大家省錢、省人力的方法，你們有沒有好好去想一想？","我們是不是可以配合保全？是不是可以配合村里長？是不是可以配合照服員？有的人晚上可以分擔一點，有的則是白天分擔一點。你們都沒有說到重點，也沒有動腦筋去想，只會說內部人不夠、錢不夠，就是因為不夠，本席才要在這裡提出這樣的計畫，難道我們花東這些老人家的人命比較不值錢嗎？你知道全縣辦理起來，例如獨居或是單獨居住沒有子女照顧的老夫妻，如果這一類的優先處理的話，全縣全部加起來才多少錢？可能連5億元都不到。只要花3億元救臺東、花蓮這些老人家，這樣很貴嗎？我們怕民眾從月台掉下去，都可以花那麼多錢去做柵欄，這個計畫可以救更多人，這筆錢為什麼不花？那個比例換算起來，其實比做月台的柵欄還便宜。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。每一條……"],["陳委員瑩：你們這樣拖時間真的沒有道理耶！一轉眼半年又過去了，你們好意思嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想每一條生命，不管他是在都市或偏鄉，我們都應該非常愛惜、重視啦！我們也一定會重視。其實在醫界，偏鄉的點值都是受到保障的，而且有額外的補助，我們一定都是關心的。所以這個部分我們馬上檢討，看看哪個地方推動時有障礙，因為一個好的計畫也需要克服很多困難，這就是一種經驗，也是一種智慧的累積，這樣也會形成一個好的模式，我們應該正面處理，為我們……"],["陳委員瑩：部長，本席再提示一件事，關於這筆經費，我們可以參考一下2023年薛部長的裁示，後來這部分是用長照基金辦理，當初豐濱的計畫是用花東基金辦理。因為這是在照顧長者，其實也和長照有關係，所以用長照基金非常合理，這個部分你們也可以朝這個方向去延續、努力，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。我們馬上研議後向委員報告。"],["陳委員瑩：請示召委，因為他們實在太不像話了，用掉本席太多時間，本來還有一題，是否讓本席問完？就是食藥署的部分，本席要說的是萊克多巴胺的問題，要修理一下他們。你要讓本席問嗎？"],["主席：1分鐘。"],["陳委員瑩：1分鐘說不完。"],["主席：說重點就好了啦！不要說那麼多。"],["陳委員瑩：好啦！本席就說一個重要的概念，召委先請坐，本席怕你太辛苦了，我們說快一點。感謝召委安排澳洲豬肉檢測出萊克多巴胺這樣的題目，這個議題最終的核心價值到底是什麼？大家可以有不同的想法，但是本席認為，這是要凸顯一個大家可以接受的健康風險概念。我們有訂一個0.01ppm的檢測標準，本席相信這是衛福部和食藥署慎重考慮之後的可接受風險，姜署長也公開對媒體表示，即使每天吃，健康也無虞。","本席相信姜署長的專業，你們一定是有所依據才會發表這麼有信心的喊話，但問題是民眾還是會擔心，如果有零檢出的豬肉，大家肯定會優先購買，本席這麼說沒錯嘛？好。可接受的健康風險，可分為主觀和客觀可以接受的，當衛福部訂出0.01ppm的檢測標準時，對民眾而言，它就是一個客觀的、可接受的健康風險。但是健康是無價的，也是不可替代的，是人民最重要的資產，不是政府說安全，大家就可以放心的。","對於有害健康的任何風險，任何理性的民眾都不會願意承擔。臺灣民眾最在意的，就是零檢出的健康風險概念，也就是說，主觀可接受的健康風險，其實對很多民眾來說是零。署長，本席這麼說也沒錯嘛！這也是為什麼明明沒有超標，你們也放行了，可是還是要你們來立法院做專報，接受每一位委員對你們的質詢，因為大家都很想知道，這些檢測出來的豬肉，即使放行了，但它的流向呢？它何去何從？因為大家都不希望買到這批豬肉。","所以你們回答各界時，不要只是告訴民眾這些豬肉多麼合乎標準、多麼無害，如果你們是這樣的態度，面對可能存在的健康風險，其實你們就是在強迫民眾拋棄自己主觀的疑慮，選擇相信你們自認客觀的專業，大家是處在不同的世界，使用不同的語言，也就如同署長說的，因為剛剛署長說了一句客觀又專業的金句就是「萊豬殘留量合格，每天吃也健康無虞」。","所以同樣的道理，對於有學術文獻報告的支持，有助於民眾實質提升健康效益的食品，民眾也有意願購買、食用，但你們卻用這種落伍的天花板標準，認定這些是不實、誇張、宣稱涉及醫療效能，讓民眾和業者無所適從。這很像過去戒嚴時代對新聞、歌曲的政治審查，只要提到這些主觀的健康效應，你們就認為這種宣傳像在說中共來了一樣，將它認定為共匪，沒有辦法容忍大家對保健食品的主觀感受。","本席今天特別點出這些問題，並不是要和你們做一些專業上的爭論，因為這就好像處在不同世界，使用不同的語言。其實一般民眾不是醫療專業人員，他們沒有能力，也沒有意圖宣稱涉及醫療效能的言論，除非你們對自己的醫療專業很沒有信心，所以不能接受民眾主觀可接受的風險是零，沒有辦法接受民眾有權利去購買可以提升自己健康狀態的任何食品，也不能接受民眾可以表達自己使用保健食品的心得。","所以本席希望透過今天的討論凸顯這個問題，讓你們能夠比較正向的看待健康保健食品，因為現在人民使用後所產生的主觀健康意識，其實是被箝制的，本席要點出這些問題，因為這些是不被允許討論的。最後的結論，之前質詢時，你們也認同本席的意見，願意在質詢之後的兩個月內修改食品宣傳廣告認定準則，本席也知道你們在如火如荼進行當中。但是在新的準則修訂好之前，因為現在是過渡時期嘛！你們接下來要用哪個標準執行？等新的標準出來，近期或之前被裁罰的，可不可以申請退回？"],["姜署長至剛：先向委員做進一步的報告，謝謝委員近來的一些指導，特別是對於保健食品的功能性詞句。的確，我們在署內也做了非常大幅度的討論，希望限定在一定的範圍之內，讓它的語句更精準的回到功能性食品的標示，往這邊走是我們持續在努力的。至於裁罰的部分，因為適法性的問題，雖然目前是所謂的輔導先行概念，但是已經裁罰的部分，因為案件都是在地方衛生局……"],["陳委員瑩：所以就是不行嘛？"],["姜署長至剛：對，因為在衛生局。"],["陳委員瑩：你們有沒有辦法在短期內，比如一週內正面表列那些認定準則，例如「得使用」的詞句，還有「得敘述」的生理功能詞句或類似的詞句，你們可以都把它列出來嗎？因為現在就好像文字獄一樣，中文好難喔！"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員，就時間上面，能不能允許多給我們一點時間？"],["陳委員瑩：兩週嗎？列出類似詞句。"],["姜署長至剛：因為要做大一點的改變，所以需要稍微多一點點的時間。我們會儘快，有任何進度會和委員做進一步的交流和溝通，我們會確實……"],["陳委員瑩：等一下，本席確認一下，你們現在是輔導先行嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：一直以來都是輔導先行。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你們要以新準則的方向去做輔導先行。"],["姜署長至剛：其實現在的準則也是輔導先行，我們一直都是輔導先行。"],["陳委員瑩：沒有辦法把類似詞句詳細列出來嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我們會儘快向委員報告。我們確立之後，也比較能夠聚焦，之後再向委員做完整的說明。"],["陳委員瑩：所以未來還會有類似詞句這樣的字眼嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：這些詞句都會做一些修飾，符合規定才能夠做功能性的說明。"],["陳委員瑩：你們還是要把它列出來，因為當執行的人不一樣的時候，你們所謂的「類似」標準就會不一樣，就會回到署長上次回答本席質詢時使用「抽象」這兩個字，因為裁罰時要明確，所以不能再抽象下去，好不好？"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長。"],["陳委員瑩：感謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝，下次不要說那麼久啦！","最後請黃國昌主席質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳瑩","廖偉翔","陳培瑜","李坤城","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","劉書彬","劉建國","黃國昌","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲"],"page_start":163,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「長照2.0執行情形檢討及3.0未來規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長就「澳洲進口豬腳驗出含萊克多巴胺，如何加強肉品食安查驗，讓民眾\n放心」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00004"}}},{"id":"161134","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161134","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1ae42befe85c4ffaabf088656e97d34035710b400f5dcf92418318873d924b4585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"13:38:15 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請署長"},{"start":128.398,"end":146.231,"text":"所以因此在過去一路以來我們看到他的風險並都沒有查到所以他的確是從以前逐批查到後來是降到2到10%的一個查查的比例那2到10%查查比例那我們目前看到雖然這次的檢出值是0.01到0.003ppm"},{"start":149.253,"end":167.199,"text":"是小於我們的0.01的標準值但是剛才在先前委員會裡面委員們有一些些特別提醒我們要我們增加的我們剛才也有承諾說我們會讓國人更為安心把叉叉的比例往上提升這邊也跟委員特別做建議目前讓署長講得完整"},{"start":167.819,"end":183.125,"text":"那如果是這個讓就是提高檢驗的這樣的一個量能嘛基本上應該要來嚇阻這些事情是應該是沒有多大的問題啦齁但是我現在用一個例子給你做參考齁那個時候你還沒有來當署長這家齁印度的Boss的香料與調味料"},{"start":185.105,"end":203.336,"text":"這個公司在去年6月18日查出紅膠色素產品有蘇丹隆4號12月17號就是去年又被查到這個紅膠色素檢測出蘇丹隆1、2、4三個號然後今年2月11號又有辣椒油素質被檢出蘇丹隆2號跟4號這是幾點"},{"start":206.278,"end":230.074,"text":"那去年2月27喔我們消息組的新聞稿寫得很清楚無論是邊境或後市場只要檢出蘇丹紅立即停止輸入查驗那簡單講就是說這家MOS公司在去年6月18被查驗後應該就立即停止輸入查驗為什麼它在12月還是在今年的2月11號都還可以持續進口"},{"start":231.861,"end":240.019,"text":"這家BOSS公司一直在挑戰台灣的邊境茶葉如果說真的他來一次疏忽又被禁來了誰要負責"},{"start":241.811,"end":264.358,"text":"這邊跟委員進一步報告這就是因為我們的邊境查驗的系統是智慧型的那它是不得檢出但是檢出了所以我們查驗比例不斷的挑高之後呢是百分之百它其實還沒到港口還沒有進入邊境我們的我們就知道這一家有進馬上就進去去做查查所以才有這個機會能夠這麼精準的把它再查到"},{"start":264.958,"end":294.358,"text":"那因為進口商在做這件事情的時候他其實是我們在小署的部分是沒有辦法特別但是我們會予以輔導那因為輔導部分也很困難不在於本署的一個業務的能夠支持但是我們在邊境那決戰在境外的這樣子的心一定是不會改變的以上所以基本上你的意思就是說我們還是有一些防治防備防防制的機制存在但是這好像是廠家就是要跟你賭"},{"start":295.438,"end":320.476,"text":"對不對 他就是在被堵嘛對 我們看到的情形是這樣的然後我們食藥署有這麼大的量能可以跟他對堵嗎我們跟委員報告我們的Border Protection Intelligence就是邊境的智慧茶茶的系統裡面對於這樣子的茶茶已經違規是不得檢出的它自然跳出來的就會變成百分之百只要這個廠家出來馬上就會是每一批"},{"start":321.337,"end":344.892,"text":"因為報關的相關資料裡面我們就可以抓得到所以在這邊特別跟委員報告說我們已經在做所謂的精準抽驗上面已經有量能這樣的提升對國人的安全的努力現在這樣的場景為什麼不把它列作是一個黑名單對它就是黑名單就是我們知道它是黑名單但是我們就會去你覺得它是黑名單它還可以持續的這樣持續的報關來挑戰來跟你賭"},{"start":347.914,"end":372.252,"text":"這在貿易的部分他們自由貿易的廠商的部分我覺得應該要有他們我覺得這應該要有個因應之道吧不能這個樣子嘛對不對你當然有相關的機制完備但是他還敢跟你賭那到底是我們有什麼調整的空間他連賭都不能賭就是他沒有提供安全足夠的這樣的品質保證的情況之下他都不需要賭了就是主角了啦"},{"start":373.012,"end":394.398,"text":"也不用浪費這麼多的人力甚至於還有要用更進步的科技來做專業主角我覺得這應該是可以討論的吧謝謝委員我想這個部分我們一定帶回去看怎麼進一步可能不是單單在衛福部事要署這邊我們能夠在跨部會裡面做一些些溝通協調看怎麼能夠去努力一個月好不好問一下這個邊境一個月應該可以吧"},{"start":400.529,"end":422.815,"text":"因為我們經生的問題我們經不起任何一次的疏忽嘛然後這廠家就是有就是慣性嘛對報告委員這邊其實剛才提到這家廠商真的是在今年1月24號之後我們有停止其輸入的查驗的是已經有這樣子的阻絕的動作今年的1月嘛有停止輸入的查驗嘛對不對是但是你在關稅的時候是今年的2月11號啊對所以"},{"start":424.275,"end":443.978,"text":"在這種情形之下可能在時序上面呢還有讓他們有進來那我們也很因為我們有這個系統我們就有把他攬下來這時間沒有是正確的嘛對不對是的這時間沒有問題啊所以在1月已經有做了更完整的這樣的一個組決怎麼2月11號又發生了辣椒油素質蘇丹農2號跟4號"},{"start":445.479,"end":466.875,"text":"對我們就回去我們直接來去跟跨部會裡面我們有機會能夠去做進一步的溝通再跟委員處報告所以這顯然還是有問題的存在啦還是有盲點啦一個月裡面提出我們相關的一些因應作為好我們來進一步的去研擬這是下部委例嘛因為實際上的問題我們就是不容許不容許農民百姓就是不容許我們卸貸啊"},{"start":467.856,"end":493.001,"text":"我們就是更積極嘛 好不好 謝謝委員好 那第二件事情也是稍微排的 這個非常重要部長你看一下 署長你們請回頭台灣賣入超高齡社會大家都很清楚 65歲已經超過20%長照需求者的人數推估也將高達90萬人以上以因此2026的這個造福專員需求人率將達到造福需求人率 將達到這一個12萬但是你目前看"},{"start":493.801,"end":503.528,"text":"這是往下墜的一個台灣居府人員的成長率從2020年7.79%2021年26%小數領就不再墜數了2022年7.9%2023年1.7%2024年來到1.3%居務員成長率這幾年低迷外我們台灣目前有5萬多的居府然後平均年齡都已經超過50歲未滿25歲才1800僅佔居府的3.6%"},{"start":522.322,"end":551.742,"text":"還是次長你們怎麼看到現在這個狀況這不僅是會有偏鄉老老照顧現在連居府也都是一樣老老居府的窘境怎麼處理怎麼因應次長非常感謝建國委員對於這個問題的關心我跟委員報告兩個重點第一個其實整個居府現在委員剛剛所說的是2020到2024他那個曲線確實是低但是請委員要注意106年我要注意什麼"},{"start":552.282,"end":568.288,"text":"不不不 請委員你就順順講清楚我會非常注意請委員那個那個圖表再貼回去來沒有啦 了解就是說我們從剛開辦的時候 他的曲線是這樣上去的是啊所以我們從剛開始的時候是2.5萬現在是10萬嘛所以現金是4倍所以他的曲線是這樣現在有人說說說說 沒錯 是5年"},{"start":578.032,"end":602.843,"text":"現在也許現在到目前為止現在是目前有點就比較平但是這個部分我們也這個市場就是前幾年長照2.0在推的時候前8年也成長非常非常非常迅速最近這幾年是有點比較平滑但是第二點我們現在目前我也同意整個居福原它的平均年齡確實也偏高所以我們現在目前"},{"start":603.783,"end":628.03,"text":"也希望能夠在這個部分能夠多能夠來來來多推動跟這一個學校學校端這邊的一個合作來來來加強這邊的這一根年輕化當然最重要的還是薪資啦沒錯啦好了好你已經提出問題的所在嘛對不對通常要是薪資嘛所以兩個問題你都講了嘛那第一個問題我們會注意嘛你要注意那個你要把高峰的曲線不要弄出來"},{"start":628.41,"end":649.738,"text":"你不要因為低的才弄出來你要注意一點好不好第二點你就特別提到嘛這個年齡的問題嘛然後再來最主要還是薪資的問題長照長照大家都非常清楚一年的時候平均其實我們都我們都說的比較比較比較和緩一些的說成就還有還有50億沒啦沒這麼多啦"},{"start":652.559,"end":667.647,"text":"其實拜託市長回去可能要再精算一下1.0之前平均1.0才真正的有付出的是多少錢這第一第二長照2.0從小英上來之後隔年的長照基金長照福華等等陸續推動我們從50來億應該是40 50億變成320億一直到現在800多要進入900多了對不對"},{"start":676.551,"end":700.199,"text":"那將近8年 將近8年的長照相關的幾支戶 通通沒有調整這比較有道理 八個黨都沒有人調整你調整什麼 你說我聽因為次長你自己提到薪資的問題嘛 對不對你看喔 小英3年以來 台灣聚力工資每年調漲這個表格各位可以看一下嘛一英文的時候 時薪是1220調到126"},{"start":701.959,"end":707.221,"text":"然後106的時候月薪從20008調到2019一直到114年的一列以後已經來到28590甚至於這個時薪已經調到190了長照怎麼會相關的幾支戶到現在8年連一個微調通通沒有"},{"start":722.842,"end":733.15,"text":"這太過頭注意你就要特別注意這個事情啊你可以注意到曲線你怎麼不曉得你那個長照幾十或八年那個曲線是平的"},{"start":734.252,"end":757.188,"text":"是平的 一定不會動你叫我注意管的因為我注意雞肋的 港肋的嘛你要叫我注意管的 那個白白白你知不知道部長是醫師嘛 很清楚到醫院有讀我看到一個數據是白白白代表什麼你知道嗎早我已經說了嘛所以要注意嘛白白白你注意嘛 已經不會有啊"},{"start":759.326,"end":764.707,"text":"對不對現在要怎麼處理注意怎麼會把你完全都沒有動然後我們現在又針對喔衛部又針對長照3.0將讓入什麼有三項嘛第一經醫師診斷危老狀況且是能影響到日常生活第二經醫師診斷為癌末"},{"start":782.731,"end":802.027,"text":"然後預期壽命低於六個月的私人病患那我們現在在第三項是符合前述條件且符合勞動力中階啦這個技術人力的取得永久居留權的外籍專業人士我們要擴大這個對象嘛對不對我們在擴大對象但我們一直不提升相關的給支付你怎麼有人你怎麼補起來"},{"start":807.551,"end":817.498,"text":"你從很多的面向去處理 要讓更多的這個造福人力長照機構人力 我知道都有在做但是你的誘因在什麼地方 你的鼓勵在什麼地方處長都說是了 你叫他去注意啊我以後自己會好好注意啦"},{"start":831.221,"end":835.124,"text":"非常佩服委員長期以來對這個問題的關心我相信真的是確實誠如委員剛才所說的我想這個需求要再提高長照其實最重要的就是人力"},{"start":846.694,"end":862.104,"text":"因為我們也知道人力成本佔百分之六十嘛所以這個部分我們現在目前會根據我們的那個組合長照照顧組合的機制來做一個相關的一個成本效益分析但是我們現在是這樣啦簡單來講就是說業者應該自己的經驗應該最了解裡面的成本的那個結構所以你只要業者那邊拿出來大家都可以來探討嘛注意"},{"start":876.38,"end":899.694,"text":"人家早早就已經提出來了市民們沒有注意到啦報告委員我們也跟這個居民這邊有跟他們拜託但他們說請他們提出但是他們到目前為止其實是不會的啦那我就會特別注意居民到底在做什麼是不是沒關係他們沒有提出啦我會注意他們為什麼沒有提出之後來跟你回報"},{"start":900.68,"end":929.437,"text":"但是他們如果有提出那就要換你注意了對 沒錯我要提到一點喔我們 我剛才特別用那個就是基本工資來看待整個這個成長嘛那你怎麼可能會成照相關的幾支或標準照理講你也應該參考嘛 評估嘛就像可以依照基本工資啦還是勞健保費率啦 物價指數來做微調嘛即便居如沒有提出來至少還是可以來做嘛因為你剛剛特別提到的兩個點的中間的一個點薪資問題嘛"},{"start":931.098,"end":956.096,"text":"所以不是只有居府 長照機構的人員基本上都是如此嘛所以是整體來做這個面向來做調查 來做相關的這些可以依據的參考我們應該 時間到了啦 要進到3.0之前就應該來做調整啦好不好 不然這樣等嘛好不好 會啦 你們來注意齁謝謝部長 一起注意 一個月內"},{"start":957.057,"end":960.603,"text":"我們把這個注意事情處理完成 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝大家的注意"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1219,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時38分）謝謝主席，有請部長還有署長。"],["邱部長泰源：食藥署嗎？"],["劉委員建國：對，FDA。"],["邱部長泰源：召委好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。昨天中華民國養豬協會潘連周理事長在媒體上表示：開放進口萊豬至今已經四年，消費大眾證明對進口豬肉沒有興趣，只有加工廠商會基於成本採購，所以不太擔心進口內臟和豬腳會影響國產豬肉，只要政府嚴格把關並追查豬肉動向，但無論是肉品、內臟還是加工品都需要做到產地標示，避免有魚目混珠的情況，也保障國內豬農的權益。部長對潘理事長的說法有什麼看法？"],["邱部長泰源：現在就是這樣在做。"],["劉委員建國：好，現在就是這樣做，但是潘理事長這段話的重點就是政府要嚴格把關並追查豬肉動向，我們到底有沒有嚴格把關？因為他表示：一週內連續有三批萊豬進口不可能是包裝錯誤或是巧合，畢竟所有貨物進口都要經過檢驗、封櫃然後報關，這次一週就有兩次澳洲萊豬進來，代表澳洲端沒有確實檢驗，這才是問題所在。所以目前臺灣在邊境的把關，萊豬抽驗已經過了這4年，是不是開始有一些疏忽懈怠？不然怎麼會有這種事情發生？"],["邱部長泰源：好，應該不會，是不是容我請署長說明？"],["劉委員建國：好，請署長。"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，關於澳洲這3批，後來我們追查發現，其實後方製造廠是同一家，貿易商的部分，是由2家貿易商進口，所以原則上是來自同一家製造商的產品。至於在邊境查察的部分，我們一直以來都希望做到更精準、智慧型的抽驗，過去一路以來也都沒有查到它的風險，所以的確是從以前的逐批查察降為現在2%到10%的查察比率。以2%到10%的查察比率，照我們目前看到的，雖然這次檢出值0.001ppm到0.003ppm小於我們的0.01ppm標準值，但是剛才在委員會裡，有一些是委員們特別提醒我們、要我們增加的，我們也承諾會讓國人更為安心，把查察比率往上提升，這邊也特別向委員做進一步報告。"],["劉委員建國：好，我是儘量讓署長講得完整啦！如果是這樣，也就是提高檢驗量能，要嚇阻這些事情基本上應該沒有多大的問題啦！","但我再引用一個例子給你參考，那時你還沒有當署長。這家印度BOS香料與調味料公司在去年6月18日被查出紅椒色素產品有蘇丹紅4號，同樣是去年12月17號，又被查到紅椒色素檢測出蘇丹紅1、2、4號三種，今年2月11日又有辣椒油樹脂被檢出蘇丹紅2號跟4號，這是今年。去年2月27日，食藥署新聞稿寫得很清楚，無論是邊境或後市場，只要檢出蘇丹紅，立即停止輸入查驗。那簡單來講，這家BOS公司在去年6月18日被查驗之後，就應該立即停止輸入查驗，為什麼在12月與今年2月11日都還可以持續進口？這家BOS公司一直在挑戰臺灣的邊境查驗，如果哪一次真的疏忽，又讓它進來了，誰要負責？"],["姜署長至剛：我在這邊跟委員進一步報告，其實就是因為我們的邊境查驗系統是智慧型的，它是不得檢出但檢出了，所以我們把查驗比率不斷調高之後，達到百分之百，其實產品還沒到港口、還沒進入邊境，我們一知道這家公司有進口就馬上查察，所以才有這個機會能夠精準地再次查到。進口商在做這件事情的時候，其實我們食藥署沒有辦法特別處理，而是予以輔導，輔導部分也很困難，不是本署的業務能夠支持，但我們在邊境、決戰於境外的心是一定不會改變的，以上。"],["劉委員建國：所以基本上你的意思是，我們還是有一些防制機制存在，但是這個廠家就是好像要跟你賭，對不對？他們就是在跟你賭嘛！"],["姜署長至剛：對，我們看到的情形是這樣。"],["劉委員建國：那食藥署有這麼大的量能可以跟他們對賭嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：在我們的border protection intelligence，也就是邊境智慧查察系統的查察，面對已經違規、不得檢出者，跳出來的標準自然就會變成百分之百，只要是這家廠商出來的每一批產品，馬上就是……因為我們從報關相關資料裡面就可以抓到，所以我在這邊要特別跟委員報告，我們在精準抽驗上已經有量能的提升，這是我們對國人安全的努力。"],["劉委員建國：好，像這樣的廠家為什麼不把他列為黑名單？"],["姜署長至剛：他就是黑名單。"],["劉委員建國：OK。"],["姜署長至剛：我們知道他是黑名單，只要進口就一定會……"],["劉委員建國：你知道他是黑名單，他們還可以這樣持續報關、挑戰、來跟你賭？"],["姜署長至剛：在自由貿易上，應該要由自由貿易的廠商回饋給他們。"],["劉委員建國：我覺得應該要有因應之道吧？不能這樣嘛！對不對？當你相關機制完備，他們卻還敢跟你賭，那我們到底有什麼調整的空間？讓他連賭都不能賭，也就是在沒有提供足夠安全品質保證的情況之下，他都不需要賭了，就是阻絕了啦！也不用浪費這麼多人力，甚至用更進步的科技做阻絕嘛！我覺得這應該是可以討論的吧？"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員，這麼部份我們一定帶回去，看看怎麼進一步處理。可能不單單是在衛福部食藥署這邊，應該能夠跨部會做一些溝通、協調，看看能夠怎麼努力。"],["劉委員建國：1個月，好不好？可以吧？"],["姜署長至剛：我要問一下邊境……"],["劉委員建國：1個月應該可以吧！因為生命問題禁不起任何一次疏忽，而且這個廠家就是慣性違規嘛！"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，其實針對剛才提到這家廠商，我們已經在今年1月24日之後停止廠家其輸入查驗，已經有這樣的阻絕動作了。"],["劉委員建國：今年1月停止輸入查驗嘛！"],["姜署長至剛：是。"],["劉委員建國：但再發生的時間是今年2月11日啊！"],["姜署長至剛：對，這種情形可能是因為時序上的關係讓他們還有產品持續進來，但也因為我們有這個查驗系統，所以把它攔下來。"],["劉委員建國：這個時間是正確的，對不對？"],["姜署長至剛：是的，這是正確的。"],["劉委員建國：所以時間沒有問題啊！既然1月已經做了更完整的阻絕，怎麼會在2月11日又發生辣椒油樹脂含蘇丹紅2號和4號的事件？"],["姜署長至剛：我們回去會直接跨部會處理，等我們有機會進一步溝通再跟委員報告。"],["劉委員建國：顯然這裡還是有問題存在啦！還是有盲點啦！請在1個月內提出相關的因應作為。"],["姜署長至剛：好，我們進一步研擬跟報告。"],["劉委員建國：下不為例嘛！對於食安問題，人民、百姓就是不容許我們懈怠啊！就是要更積極嘛！好不好？"],["姜署長至剛：是，謝謝委員。"],["劉委員建國：好。第二件事情也是召委排的，這非常重要啦！部長，你看一下，署長請回。臺灣邁入超高齡社會大家都很清楚，65歲以上人口已經超過20%，長照需求者人數推估將高達90萬人以上，也因此2026年照服專員需求人力將達到12萬人，但是目前來看，臺灣居服人員的成長率是往下墜的，從2020年的79%、2021年26%，小數點我就不再贅述了，2022年7.9%、2023年1.7%，2024年來到1.3%。除了這幾年居服員成長率低迷以外，臺灣目前有五萬多名居服人力，平均年齡已經超過50歲，未滿25歲者才1,800人，僅占居服人力的3.6%。部長或次長，你們怎麼看待現在這個狀況？不僅會有偏鄉老老照顧的現象，現在連居服也一樣有老老居服的窘境嘛！怎麼處理、怎麼因應？"],["邱部長泰源：我請次長。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝建國委員對於這個問題的關心，我跟委員報告兩個重點。第一，其實看整個居服，在委員剛剛所說的是從2022年到2024年，曲線確實是低，但是請委員注意，106年……"],["劉委員建國：我要注意什麼？你慎重講清楚，我會非常注意。"],["呂次長建德：不，是請委員了解，我們剛開辦的時候，它的曲線是上去的，剛開始的時候是2.5萬人，現在是10萬人，所以成長了4倍。"],["劉委員建國：是啦！"],["呂次長建德：所以它的曲線是這樣，現在委員講的沒有錯，以曲線來看，目前確實比較平，這部分是因為市場上在推動長照2.0，前8年成長非常迅速，最近這幾年是比較平緩。","第二點，我也同意委員所講的，目前居服員的平均年齡確實偏高，所以我們也希望在這個部份多推動，跟學校端合作，加強這部分的年輕化。當然最重要的也是薪資，沒錯啦！"],["劉委員建國：好，你已經點出問題所在了，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["劉委員建國：最重要的是薪資嘛！"],["呂次長建德：沒有錯。"],["劉委員建國：所以兩個問題你都講了嘛！第一個問題我們會注意，助理要注意，你要把高峰的曲線表弄出來……"],["呂次長建德：是我要注意啦！抱歉！"],["劉委員建國：不要低的才弄出來，你要注意一點好不好？我已經提醒他了。"],["呂次長建德：對，我會注意。"],["劉委員建國：第二點就是剛剛特別提到的年齡問題。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["劉委員建國：再來，最主要的還是薪資問題嘛！"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：對於長照，大家都非常清楚，長照1.0的時候平均……其實我們都說得比較和緩一些，稱平均還有50億元，其實沒有，沒有這麼多啦！拜託次長，回去以後可能要再精算一下，長照1.0之前，平均一年真正付出的是多少錢？這是第一點。","第二，長照2.0從小英總統上來之後，隔年有長照基金、長照服務法等陸續推動，從五十來億元……應該是四、五十億元變成320億元，一直到現在的八百多億元、要進入九百多億元了吧！對不對？"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：將近8年的長照相關給支付統統沒有調整，這有道理嗎？8年都沒有調整！不然調整了什麼？你講給我聽。次長，你自己提到薪資的問題嘛！對不對？你看，小英上任以來，臺灣最低工資每年調漲，這個表格各位可以看一下，105年時薪從120元調到126元，106年，月薪從2萬8元調到2萬1,009元，一直到114年1月1日，已經來到2萬8,590元，時薪甚至已經調到190元了，那長照相關給支付到現在已經8年，怎麼會連微調統統沒有？這太……注意！你已經特別注意到這件事情了啊！"],["呂次長建德：對啊！"],["劉委員建國：你可以注意到曲線，怎麼會不曉得長照給支付8年來的曲線是平的？是平的，動也不動！你只叫我注意高的，因為我注意走低的、降下來的，所以你要我注意高的，那這條曲線則是平平的，你可知道……部長，你是醫師嘛！你很清楚。"],["呂次長建德：我知道。"],["劉委員建國：到了醫院，如果看到一個數據平平的，代表什麼你知道嗎？"],["主席：死掉了。"],["劉委員建國：對啊！召委已經說了，所以要注意嘛！"],["呂次長建德：沒有錯。"],["劉委員建國：不過等到曲線平平的才注意也已經來不及了啊！對不對？"],["呂次長建德：是啦！"],["劉委員建國：那現在要怎麼辦？CPR？還是要怎麼處理？注意！怎麼會8年來完全沒有動？然後衛福部現在針對長照3.0將納入什麼？有3項，第一是經醫師診斷為腦中風且失能、影響到日常生活；第二是經醫師診斷為癌末、預期壽命低於6個月的失能病患，第三項是符合前述條件且符合勞動部中階技術人力條件，取得永久居留權的外籍專業人士，也就是要擴大對象，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：好，我們在擴大對象，但一直不提升相關給支付，那怎麼會有人？人力怎麼補得起來？你從很多面向處理，要增加更多照服人力、長照機構人力，我知道都有在做，但是誘因在什麼地方、鼓勵在什麼地方？"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["劉委員建國：次長一直說是，還叫我注意，我也一直注意看你要回答我什麼啊！"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我自己以後一定會好好注意。"],["劉委員建國：好。"],["呂次長建德：我非常佩服委員長期以來對這個問題的關心，確實誠如委員剛剛所講的，需求在提高，其實長照最重要的就是人力，我們也知道人力成本占60%嘛！"],["劉委員建國：是啊！"],["呂次長建德：所以在這個部分，我們會根據照顧組合的機制做相關的成本效益分析。簡單來說，業者自己在經營應該最了解其中的成本結構，所以只要業者那邊提出來，大家都可以探討嘛！"],["劉委員建國：注意！人家早就已經提出來了，是你們沒有注意到啦！"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們也向居盟拜託，請他們提出，但是他們到目前為止其實還沒啦！"],["劉委員建國：那我就要特別注意居盟到底在做什麼，是不是？"],["呂次長建德：不用啦！我們自己會……"],["劉委員建國：沒關係，是他們沒有提出，我會注意他們為什麼沒有提出之後再跟你回報，但如果他們有提出，那就換你要注意了。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：我要提到一點喔！我剛才特別用最低基本工資來看待整體成長，那長照相關給支付標準怎麼可能會不動？照理講你也應該參考、評估嘛！"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：就像可以依照基本工資、勞健保費率、物價指數微調嘛！即便居盟沒有提出來，次長還是可以做嘛！因為在你剛剛特別提到的兩個點當中，就有一個點是薪資問題嘛！對吧？"],["呂次長建德：對啦！"],["劉委員建國：不是只有居服，長照機構的人員基本上都是如此嘛！所以要就這個面向整體調查，作為相關依據、參考，進到3.0之前就應該調整啦！好嗎？"],["呂次長建德：OK。"],["劉委員建國：部長，這樣可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們來注意。"],["劉委員建國：好啦！你們來注意喔？好，謝謝部長一起注意，我們一起在1個月內把這件要注意的事情處理完成，這樣好嗎？"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝大家的注意。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉召委，全部都在注意啦！謝謝部長。","最後一位請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳瑩","廖偉翔","陳培瑜","李坤城","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","劉書彬","劉建國","黃國昌","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲"],"page_start":163,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「長照2.0執行情形檢討及3.0未來規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長就「澳洲進口豬腳驗出含萊克多巴胺，如何加強肉品食安查驗，讓民眾\n放心」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00004"}}},{"id":"161133","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161133","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c160d612a423958c56ebbe9609d4ca09835710b400f5dcf924d3c8be10e344e7af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"12:06:35 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有請陳部長陳部長"},{"start":12.294,"end":31.666,"text":"本席曾經向你們交通部提出書面質詢跟臨時提案要求交通部要盤點全國各路段的合理速限那根據公路局探討就是有一本資料就是探討國內外道路速限訂立原則這個成果報告"},{"start":32.446,"end":48.913,"text":"那這份資料其實有許多可以參考的資料可以來做研究那我想我今天就透過這個資料來跟您探討就是科學化的速限調整跟檢討那我想成果報告裡面有指出"},{"start":49.713,"end":78.496,"text":"因為台灣的地形多變化然後道路的形態也很多元那有市區啊 郊區啊 山區啊高快速道路等等那所以如果全面統一調整的話那可能反而會造成很多的路段不適用可是報告有說明喔 他說美國 歐洲 日本他們的國家都強調所謂的操作速率速線 速率 操作速率就所謂的八五百分位速率"},{"start":80.353,"end":98.542,"text":"部長你剛剛講到85%的速率的意思我不知道 85%的速率他是說在道路上面行駛的車輛大概就85%的車輛大概用就是說那樣子的一個速度低於85% 低於這個速限的速度那這個速限就適合"},{"start":103.784,"end":106.348,"text":"同時也根據道路功能、路形、事故紀錄、周邊環境做一些精細的分級然後定期來檢討速限"},{"start":118.766,"end":136.751,"text":"所以最後報告是建議說我國應該要針對速限明顯與實際操作速率的落差太大還有事故率偏高還有興建跟改善道路這些重點的路段我們要進行專案的檢討跟"},{"start":138.271,"end":162.712,"text":"跟調整所以想要請教部長的是說目前我們針對所謂的這些科學化數據化的這種檢討特定道路的速限我們有沒有什麼樣的規劃跟安排因為既然做出這個報告有沒有根據這個報告做一些執行的規劃跟安排另外就是說我國的道路那麼多樣的樣態那是不是有要細緻化去分級檢討的必要 部長"},{"start":163.372,"end":186.439,"text":"我們依據剛剛的研究的結果我們自己所管轄的省道我們全部都有檢視過一遍省道的部分我們有檢視過一遍但是縣市政府他們的檢視可能要透過他們自己的方法下去做那這個部分我們可以把資料提供給縣市政府請縣市政府依據這個原則這個研究的結果也依據我們現在省道的這個檢視的經驗也下去做"},{"start":188.12,"end":214.521,"text":"那你們要給縣市政府指引啊或者說你們要發函去給他們讓他們有這樣的指引可以做這個改善的依據這是一個研究的結果還沒有到指引的程度因為當初其實就是大概在省道上面大概大家對於速限上面也有一些就是說希望檢討所以我們特別做了一個研究然後大概有一些原則那所以透過這個原則其實我們自己"},{"start":215.541,"end":239.811,"text":"公務局所主管的所有的省道我們自己做了一些檢討那有一些可以放寬速限的我們都放寬了那相關的這個部分的話我想基本上其實各地方政府他們的交通單位跟公務單位其實對相關的原則其實是熟悉的那不過我想我們有更新的一個這個結果的話我想我們會提供給他們好所以這個生活報告都會提供給地方政府"},{"start":240.627,"end":264.47,"text":"對 我們會提供給地方政府因為我們台灣現行的一些道路這個速限的制度我們是所謂的設計速率那就是說它其實我們當然有它的歷史背景跟它的基礎可是隨著我們車輛的性能越來越好啊然後道路的設計越來越進步還有國際標準的演進我們部分的路段如果速限還沒有檢討的話確實是造成很多行人的不便"},{"start":265.211,"end":285.587,"text":"所以我覺得檢討確實是很必要那我覺得其實可以優先來針對一些像說速限跟實際車流明顯不符的路段或者是說一些事故的熱點我想這些真的要好好的因為人民的感受每天在開車那有的確實速限他就是設的太低"},{"start":286.368,"end":307.328,"text":"那你動不動就變成超速那也造成很多民眾的困擾那確實這個路段可能他或許他後面拓寬了可是他出現並沒有去做調整所以這個很多的林民眾都有問題所以是不是企業請中央跟地方政府交通局去做比較好的溝通那讓全國都可以感受到"},{"start":308.689,"end":335.865,"text":"是不會中央政府因為他們搞不清楚這個地方的這個所謂的這個市道啦縣道是所謂的那個地方政府所訂定的速限所以這部分大部分民眾遇到的道路都是地方政府啦除了省道跟國道以外當然可是他們我覺得他們不是那麼理解速限的訂定是地方政府訂定的他們認為這個可能是中央政府因為他們我接收到的訊息都是這樣所以這部分再請"},{"start":337.126,"end":351.422,"text":"我們這個資料會提供給各個地方政府讓他們去做參考那可不可以一個月內就是說我們做一些全面啟動各類型的樹線的檢討因為你們說你們所管轄的樹線我們已經檢討完畢而且修正完畢了全部檢討完畢"},{"start":352.723,"end":374.664,"text":"那可不可以給我你們檢討完畢的這個的報告上次我們這個報告做完以後我們自己就做了省道的檢討那我想地方道路因為有縣道市道鄉道區道那這些部分的話我想就把我們的相關的好 你們把你們檢討的報告給我好不好就所謂的根據科學化數據化的報告是是是OK好 謝謝謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":981,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（12時6分）謝謝主席。有請陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長好。本席曾經向你們交通部提出書面質詢跟臨時提案，要求交通部盤點全國各路段的合理速限。公路局有一本資料，是探討國內外道路速限訂定原則的成果報告，這份資料其實有許多可以參考的資料，可以來做研究，我今天就透過這個資料，跟您探討科學化的速限調整跟檢討。成果報告裡面指出，因為臺灣的地形多變化，然後道路的型態也很多元，有市區、郊區、山區、高快速道路等等，所以如果全面統一調整的話，可能反而會造成很多路段不適用。可是報告中有說明，美國、歐洲、日本等國都強調操作速率，就是所謂的第85百分位速率部長，你知道第85百分位速率的意思嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我不知道。請局長。"],["陳局長文瑞：是。第85百分位速率是說，在道路上面行駛的車輛，大概有85%的車輛用那樣子的速率……"],["林委員宜瑾：有85%低於這個速限的速度，那這個速限就適合。"],["陳局長文瑞：對。這個是學理上面有這樣子的說法。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。同時也根據道路功能、路形、事故紀錄、周邊環境做一些精細的分級，定期檢討速限，所以最後報告建議，我國應該要針對速限明顯與實際操作速率的落差太大，還有事故率偏高、興建跟改善道路等，這些重點的路段，進行專案的檢討跟調整。所以想要請教部長的是，目前我們針對這些科學化、數據化檢討特定道路的速限，有沒有什麼樣的規劃跟安排？既然做出這個報告，有沒有根據這個報告做一些執行的規劃跟安排？另外，我國的道路那麼多的樣態，是不是有細緻化分級檢討的必要？部長。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，依據剛剛的研究結果，我們自己管轄的省道全部都有檢視過一遍，但是縣市政府的檢視可能要透過他們自己的方法下去做。這個部分我們可以把資料提供給縣市政府，請縣市政府依據這個原則、這個研究結果，也依據我們現在省道檢視的經驗下去做。"],["林委員宜瑾：對。那你們要給縣市政府指引，或者是你們要發函給他們，讓他們有這樣的指引可以作為改善的依據。"],["陳部長世凱：這是一個研究的結果，還沒有到指引的程度。"],["陳局長文瑞：對，因為當初其實就是在省道上面，大家對於速限也有一些希望檢討的地方，所以我們特別做了一個研究，然後有一些原則，透過這些原則，其實我們公路局針對主管的所有省道，我們自己做了一些檢討，有一些可以放寬速限的，我們都放寬了。相關的部分，基本上各地方政府的交通單位跟工務單位，對於相關的原則其實是熟悉的，如果有更新的結果，我們會提供給他們。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，所以這個成果報告都會提供給地方政府。"],["陳部長世凱：對。我們提供給地方政府。"],["林委員宜瑾：我們臺灣現行的一些道路速限的制度，是所謂的設計速率，當然有它的歷史背景跟它的基礎，可是隨著車輛的性能越來越好，道路的設計越來越進步，還有國際標準的演進，部分路段的速限如果還沒有檢討的話，確實造成很多行人的不便，所以我覺得檢討確實是很必要的。我覺得其實可以優先針對速限跟實際車流明顯不符的路段或一些事故的熱點，這些真的要好好的設計，因為人民的感受是，每天在開車時，有的道路速限就是設得太低，開車動不動就變成超速，造成很多民眾的困擾。這個路段或許後面拓寬了，可是速限並沒有調整，這些林林總總的問題，也請中央跟地方政府交通局去做比較好的溝通，讓全國都可以感受到，因為民眾罵都是罵中央政府，他們搞不清楚地方的市道、縣道的速限是地方政府所定的。"],["陳部長世凱：大部分民眾遇到的道路都是地方政府管轄的，除了省道跟國道以外，都是地方政府管的。"],["林委員宜瑾：當然，可是我覺得他們不是那麼理解速限是地方政府訂定的，他們認為可能是中央政府訂定的，我接收到的訊息都是這樣。"],["陳部長世凱：是啊。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以這部分再請部長關注。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個資料我會提供給各地方政府，讓他們參考。"],["林委員宜瑾：可不可以一個月內，做一些全面啟動各類型速限的檢討？因為你們說你們管轄的速限……"],["陳部長世凱：我們已經檢討完畢，而且修正完畢了。"],["林委員宜瑾：全部檢討完畢？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員宜瑾：那他可不可以給我你們檢討完畢的報告？"],["陳局長文瑞：可以，上次這個報告做完以後，我們自己就做了省道的檢討。地方道路因為有縣道、市道、鄉道、區道，這些部分的話，我就把我們相關的研究成果給他們。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，你們把你們檢討的報告給我，好不好？"],["陳局長文瑞：好。"],["林委員宜瑾：就是根據科學化、數據化的報告。"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK。好，謝謝。謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（許委員智傑）：好，謝謝。我們請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":162,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-10","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","張啓楷","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","林俊憲","陳雪生","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","黃捷","林國成","林月琴","張雅琳","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","涂權吉","蘇清泉","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部及教育部就「人本交通」及「交通安全」施行狀況進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計\n2案","agenda_id":"1144701_00003"}}},{"id":"161132","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161132","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c14a91628c2b3415f2ebbe9609d4ca09835710b400f5dcf92406b889c0fce998ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:01:29 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在場的委員先進 列席的政務機關首長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請我們交通部陳部長和公路局的陳局長那也麻煩請正署交通組的陳組長請三層的準備三位都姓陳 部長 局長 組長"},{"start":22.624,"end":51.05,"text":"部長好局長好還有組長好慢慢來那麼首先謝謝部長上次質詢關於地方的交通建設您馬上有指示同仁來垂詢關心如何辦理那接下來我的標題是改善道路建設降低交通事故非督的用路安全有賴中央挹注我們來看一下部長你看一下我們屏東的交通事故的死傷數居然只遜於台中台南然後還排第三"},{"start":53.917,"end":62.893,"text":"這個還不低於北北桃都會圈我們113年去年每10萬人的死傷還第三高您覺得什麼原因"},{"start":65.019,"end":85.486,"text":"報告委員 屏東因為它的鄉村相對是比較多的啦然後我們的老人家其實他要移動的時候他的公共運輸的量體也可能不太夠所以您認為是汽車的事故還是機車的造車事故造成的傷亡多要不要請組長告訴一下部長通常是機車 機車會比較多我們屏東是機車多還是汽車通常是機車會比較多吧這個是不是這樣 其實屏東的老"},{"start":90.448,"end":110.823,"text":"年長者的案件也蠻多的是好謝謝謝謝部長的關心表示部長非常的了解我們來看一下為什麼我們會提到機車呢你看一般的十字路口如果說像我們平地方上常常有大型的連結車如果入口的路弧缺乏不夠或者缺乏喇叭彎他會跑到了"},{"start":112.076,"end":128.544,"text":"交錯的對向車道是不是這樣子那這樣是誰受害很多時候就是內輪差的機車或是對岸的等候的機車騎士嘛所以是不是我們未來道路在拓寬的時候這些標線要考慮到大型車的內輪差那您覺得地方政府有沒有辦法做到這個"},{"start":132.299,"end":149.539,"text":"報告員如果內輪叉的標線也要做下去的話那個應該寬度會很寬我的意思是說就是路幅要足夠啦在交叉路口是不是這樣那因為地方政府他會負責道路的用地徵收但是我們很多的工程建設機會需要中央支持部長要不要幫忙來考慮一下"},{"start":150.564,"end":174.487,"text":"可以 這個我們可以來思考好 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我們請部長有請陳部長委員好 部長好那個他山之石可以攻錯 那我是覺得有些當然你看了其他的國家的"},{"start":23.45,"end":49.558,"text":"畫面你會發現說這個其實我們之前沒有想到所以你可以看到那個剛才林俊憲委員提到的那個兒童專用區那個圖片你把那個image想一下跟我們的就真的不一樣那也許我們以前正好沒有想到說他們我們也可以這麼做所以有些東西其實上我們就換個角度去想看怎麼樣去加強"},{"start":51.177,"end":64.681,"text":"你看我們兒童交通公園上面這一個是東京三濱兒童交通公園你看上面那兩個圖馬路就是馬路 紅綠燈就是紅綠燈它那個設計模擬是跟真的一樣"},{"start":77.089,"end":104.25,"text":"所以你看你在做兒童的從小的交通安全嘗試的教育的時候你就可以看到這個圖他們是很真實的那你看底下這兩個是我們交通部補助的就是我們鳳山的新墻公園跟萬華的青年公園這個也是兒童交通公園你就可以發現有它不一樣的地方"},{"start":105.356,"end":133.256,"text":"我們都用大人來看孩子你看底下這個,他是一種小朋友的我們大人看小朋友的觀點我們的比例這麼大,你的比例就這麼大事實上小朋友他走到真實的馬路上去的時候你還記得小時候你看到那個很大的廣場,現在長大以後來看,看得這麼小所以他那個小孩子的視野跟視角跟我們大人是不一樣的"},{"start":134.685,"end":156.924,"text":"所以他如果要給他交通安全教育 你就是要給他比較真實的交通安全教育所以其實在運動公園 交通安 交通公園部分我是希望交通部觀念可以改變一下那之前其實我一直希望說其實像日本這些三便交通公園會有很多孩子去玩"},{"start":158.962,"end":179.244,"text":"甚至觀光客也會去玩 他還要準備一些免費的自行車 遊玩也好 學習也好他就是很認真 還可以玩 所以很多 這個是滿熱門的變成一個小景點 那其實我本來在高雄 我們的高雄機場"},{"start":180.509,"end":209.014,"text":"現在我們的其邁市長那時候我們有一起在努力現在已經規劃成全國最大的市內親子遊樂區啦當時其實我也曾經提過說有沒有機會用兒童交通公園的概念去設計那當然現在有另外一個不同的概念我們也去推動也不錯不過我是希望說交通部有沒有機會不一定在我家用啦就找個地方"},{"start":210.526,"end":218.026,"text":"慢慢的就是說這個地方你在台中也好啊在台北也好啊甚至我們在高雄再找一個好的地點也好"},{"start":219.028,"end":246.63,"text":"這個其實我說對兒童教育或者是北中南各都有這個對兒童教育來講他才會擬真也才會真的學習我之前還跟你約請委員去看一個那個兒童的視角你蹲下去你蹲下去再看那個路面跟你站著看真的是不一樣然後再來就是說你兒童兒童視角我們現在視角差不多八百度他們視角可能只有九十度而已越久回越小"},{"start":248.782,"end":266.611,"text":"這個有時候我們大人都忘記了小時候那個的感覺所以我是希望說交通部可以做這樣子的規劃現在已經有規劃我們在監理站的部分桃園監理站也會做一個擬真的這個道路的教育設計已經做好了高雄鎖也在做了在哪個點在鎖本部"},{"start":278.437,"end":286.346,"text":"監理所裡面啦鳳山 高雄監理所裡面鳳山因為這個我以前有建議過啦那謝謝我們交通部這樣子有幫我們建議採納因為付諸實險這個是好事那大概什麼時候會完產"},{"start":294.645,"end":314.389,"text":"高雄什麼時候目前都是在今年年底會完成我們總共會有四個點四個點 哪裡就是在士林監理站 雲林監理站 台北鎖跟高雄鎖都在我們的監理所的有一些空地我們會在做設計"},{"start":322.151,"end":341.716,"text":"我們交通部有採納意見我們也先感謝再來我以前也問過我們交通安全交易車這個在日本其實也還蠻流行的我們交通部也跟我說有做後來有做是什麼呢你看下一張有做的是做這個行動監理車"},{"start":343.942,"end":371.089,"text":"跟他們的那個教育巡迴教育車是不一樣的性質那當然就是說我們再來檢討這個行動檢理車啦行動檢理車這個駕照跟牌照的業務這個都有做這個是好事就是說我們讓偏鄉的長輩可以就是比較方便但是呢現在我們要換照對不對換照比如說高齡換照現在都會不會有在思考換照你要讓長輩更方便"},{"start":372.029,"end":385.224,"text":"所以你看這個危險感知體驗跟那個模擬駕駛我舉下面一個例子你看我會比較直接這個AI的實境這個你們現在也有在做嘛對不對有"},{"start":388.568,"end":400.133,"text":"就是目前大概有一些這個危險感知的平台對對模擬的實境的一些影片對對對就是這一個嘛這個也是我看那個新聞看到的啦這不是遊戲機高齡換駕照"},{"start":403.502,"end":422.464,"text":"那將迎接AI的關卡那我是這樣建議啦就是說交通部再思考一下就是說你這個行動監理車如果加入這個AI實境的模擬或者是說AR這個在裡面將來你要讓長輩去換照就更方便"},{"start":424.464,"end":436.419,"text":"他不用再照去健康檢查還是說有幾項比較基本的需求那我們就把他設計在那個行動監理車裡面那長輩將來要換照我想他就很方便嘛"},{"start":437.542,"end":466.141,"text":"這個是不是交通部可以考量一下還是我跟會員報告行動監理車因為他就是把監理站延伸所以相關的一些網路設備我們都帶出去高齡患兆目前只要做認知功能測驗認知功能測驗基本上在行動監理車上做沒有問題這個更延伸就是說做AI做這個部分目前我們還在做相關的試辦不是說強制說高齡患兆一定要經過這樣子的一個關卡"},{"start":467.402,"end":494.954,"text":"趕快示範成功嘛因為這個將來這個是全世界的潮流這個很必要嘛AI一定會進入你的生活的那如果說這一個再包括行動間旅車再包括長輩的這個換照的AI的這個試驗那甚至再加上兒童其實兒童現在有很多那個像現在那個什麼方程式賽車啦有很多模擬的"},{"start":496.312,"end":518.935,"text":"這是模擬的 孩子其實這個也可以放時間這個部分其實都可以一起去做思考我今天去講 重點就是說第一個謝謝我們提到的這個兒童交通這個公園你們也確實有做了這個謝謝我們諮詢總是有看到實質的成績那第二個就是我們繼續再要求"},{"start":519.435,"end":530.846,"text":"希望這個行動經理車可以增加擴大它的功能也許可以適用在老人甚至未來兒童的巡迴交易車也可以一併來做思考好不好好 謝謝好 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那有請邱部長委員好部長好根據衛福部的資料顯示在113年的時候我國長照的服務量的人數達到55.8萬但是長照的服務員僅有10萬421人有嚴重的人力短缺這個情形"},{"start":34.628,"end":54.12,"text":"那衛福部的報告當中對於這個策進規劃裡面有提到說長照人力不足多元充實照顧人力有這個必要性那你們提出的方案當中是說跨國合作擴大招募外籍人力的這個政策呢是在衛福部配合教育部的新南向產學合作國際專班那規劃的是專班的畢業生呢畢業後畢業後續留"},{"start":60.624,"end":83.094,"text":"住宿式的機構來做服務那這是一項新的補充照顧人力的這個途徑跟政策就是一個方向我覺得值得再去討論就問部長那衛福部他預計說這樣的新南向產學合作專班每年要獲得多少的長照的人力來進入到住宿式的機構服務大概多少人力有估量嗎我沒有"},{"start":86.778,"end":110.16,"text":"那請理事幫忙好 請理事長非常感謝劉委員對於這個問題的關心那這個誠如剛剛委員剛剛所說的我們現在目前確實也因應現在目前這一個整個人力不足所以我們現在目前除了本勞之外我們現在目前整個所謂的中階勞動力我們現在會從新南向國家到底多少人 我重點是你們知道估計多少人嗎我們現在目前設定是一年120"},{"start":111.361,"end":132.149,"text":"我們現在目前是,我們會逐年,我們現在目前是一年一百二的一年一百二,對沒錯因為一班是四十位嘛所以在三班而已,對沒錯可是這個新南向專班是從一百零六年就開始的,因為有畢業生四年是一百一十年畢業後的時候是一百一十年"},{"start":134.15,"end":155.277,"text":"那是新的 那你們是應該有弄錯 應該是新型的產業專班才會這種情況那你們是好 如果是這樣情況齁 如果是這樣情況那我們先看看齁那所以這代表說這些人 你剛才說到有120個是代表是說他是在學期間就已經在實習嘛 如果你是真的是新型的部分對不對 等於說他剛剛進入一年級他就再去實習了 是嗎"},{"start":157.056,"end":159.218,"text":"我們設定是二專因為這個產業端用人恐急所以我們設計是二專那在二專是長照相關科學的二專所以他在學讀書是一年半"},{"start":174.252,"end":180.373,"text":"最後一學期才到媒合的這個機構去做實習那實習就要給付基本工資然後畢業之後跟這個提供實習機構跟相關50%費用的這個機構產業要綁約三年在這個機構裡面服務三年好但是你們這是新型的因為教育部在這部分已經出現了過去你們是因為是新型的部分"},{"start":199.497,"end":228.499,"text":"但是在更早的情況之下是106年就有所謂的國際新南向產學合作專班這部分是106年就在進行的你們知道嗎尤其是在報告當中也是提到這邊但是你們現在只針對新的部分去進行這是不為不顧我們是從去年開始新的計畫對那個也是教育部因為你們都是跟教育部做合作但是事實上因為我們看到的是在監察院在人權委員會的報告當中都有在出現到去年就有人新南向專班的這個部分就有越南生在"},{"start":229.46,"end":252.299,"text":"工作的場域當中就發生的死亡事件包委員您現在所說的那應該是那教育部那個方案我現在要強調我們現在目前是完完全全只是為我們的長照機構而這個方案是從去年才開始推出好所以之前的部分可是那個部分那個好我知道以前說過去那部分是全部的這個所謂的機構但是對長照就是只有在今年才拉進來的是這樣子的話那如果這麼少的話你們剛才說現在才"},{"start":257.483,"end":274.19,"text":"缺人力有大概缺人力到底有缺多少你們不是缺了很多嗎那現在就估計是120人在慢慢在進行就對了跟我們報告外籍人力有兩塊這一塊去年新加的是定位是中階品質這個能力比較好那另外一塊還有藍領的"},{"start":276.331,"end":294.164,"text":"藍領的就是依據就業服務法46條引進來的可以到機構裡面來工作那這塊我們也透過勞動部那邊的修法把本來的本國照服員跟引進藍領移工1比1的人力我們已經修法通過了讓他的1比1的算法是本國的照服員加"},{"start":295.184,"end":306.596,"text":"護理人力加起來一比一 他們的語言能力夠嗎如果你剛才說像你的二專他們就來一年然後第一年半的時候就進入到語言上去他們語言夠嗎 包括什麼審核標準等等的因為這個新南向的這一塊教育部那邊要求規定他沒有通過語言測驗是要退學的所以是一定會把關讓他語言能夠通過"},{"start":318.427,"end":322.871,"text":"因為我們這一塊是跟產業界合作就是住宿機構的這一塊他要出50%的經費他提出的需求他是要兩名還是三名還是五名他出50%我們這邊出50%"},{"start":339.548,"end":350.196,"text":"那我現在有一個問題現在的是你們對這些外籍的就是實習生的部分你們薪水是給基本工資那我們去問一下我們一般的勞工做長照的他們薪水是多少"},{"start":351.951,"end":376.064,"text":"藍領移工的這塊我說不要說移工我說一般的我們的正常的長照在機構是住宿室的機構部分薪水是多少在住宿室機構他基本上他的薪資當然因為是本國對他要留住他他的相關的薪資一定會依據他的能力跟條件大概是平均有多少你們應該有這個數據吧因為是長照人力的缺乏也是可能是低薪的緣故啊對"},{"start":376.704,"end":400.561,"text":"因為我們住宿型機構大概基本上整個起薪大概都有超過三萬塊可是這個不包括他還會輪班有一些津貼的部分那我們也為了讓本國的資深的這個照服員能夠久任在這個機構所以我們其實從去年就有一支計劃開始就是我們"},{"start":401.321,"end":426.486,"text":"推動機構你只要願意推薦你機構裡面大概本國的照服員最多兩成的人力來接受培訓培訓完了之後四年期間我們都會給這名受完訓通過測驗的本國的照服員每個月給他五千塊的這個留任解約但是這一部分你會看到他實際上缺了很多那麼預計長照這服務員你們希望說預期到未來是準備到什麼樣一個需求才是夠的供應才是夠的"},{"start":428.706,"end":435.311,"text":"因為整個各行各業他基本上是哪邊的這個職場越友善薪資待遇越高必然流動那這個部分還是整個因為沒有辦法提出來因為他是缺工嘛所以你們還引進外籍的尤其是新南向是屬於GDP比我們低的嘛"},{"start":448.36,"end":468.425,"text":"這部分已經呈現很重要的就是長照人員他們薪水基本上是低的本國低那外勞更是用基本工資他們確實是非常勞工的工作這部分其實應該說要去做很大的改進目前你們有沒有預期說未來這個部分外籍的產學專班預計大家希望能夠補到多少人力目標是多少"},{"start":469.626,"end":486.757,"text":"這個部分真的也會受到那個到外面去招生能不能順利進來的還是有一些外交的問題所以沒有目標所以我們設的目標不是整個衛福部可以掌控那我們也積極有跟這個外交部這些相關單位來協助能夠讓這些願意報名進來的學生能夠順利入境"},{"start":493.562,"end":515.308,"text":"這部分其實有很大的問題因為我上次在總預算總質詢的時候問到教育部教育部已經發現說如果這邊有些學校的部分遇到問題的時候他就會做處理甚至今年七月份可能要不合法就要關閉那我現在重點是說這部分包括人家預算還有未來的實施這部分希望是不是能夠在大概一個月大概有初步的這個報告跟我們來做本部本期來做報告好沒問題謝謝好謝謝謝謝謝謝第二個"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1154,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（13時29分）謝謝主席，有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["劉委員書彬：部長好。根據衛福部的資料顯示，在113年的時候，我國長照服務量的人數達到55.8萬，但是長照服務員僅有10萬421人，有嚴重人力短缺的情形。那衛福部的報告當中，在策進規劃裡面提到長照人力不足，有多元充實照顧人力的必要性，而你們提出的方案是說，跨國合作擴大招募外籍人力這個政策是在衛福部配合教育部的新南向產學合作國際專班，規劃專班畢業生畢業後續留住宿式機構來做服務，這是補充照顧人力一個新的途徑與政策，就是一個方向，我覺得值得再去討論。請問部長，衛福部預計這樣的新南向產學合作專班每年要獲得多少長照人力進入住宿式機構服務？大概有多少人力？有估量嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，請呂次幫忙說明。"],["劉委員書彬：好，請呂次長。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝劉委員對於這個問題的關心，誠如委員剛剛所說的，我們目前確實也因應整個人力不足，所以除了本勞之外，所謂的中階勞動力現在會從新南向國家，這個現在……"],["劉委員書彬：到底多少人？我的重點是，你們估計有多少人？"],["呂次長建德：我們會逐年，目前這個數字是一年120人。"],["劉委員書彬：一年120人。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["劉委員書彬：好，那是……"],["呂次長建德：因為一班是40位，我們目前是以……"],["劉委員書彬：所以才3班而已。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["劉委員書彬：可是這個新南向專班是從106年就開始了，有畢業生是110年，4年後畢業是110年。"],["呂次長建德：沒有，我們這個是從去年，這是從去年全新的一個措施。"],["劉委員書彬：這是新的措施，那你們應該有弄錯，應該是新型的產業專班才會是這種情況。好，如果是這樣的情況，那我們先看看，你剛才說有120人，代表他是在學期間就已經在實習嘛！如果真的是新型的部分，對不對？等於說他才剛進入一年級就去實習了，是嗎？"],["祝司長健芳：能不能容許我跟委員說明？"],["劉委員書彬：好。"],["祝司長健芳：我們設定是二專，因為產業端用人孔亟，所以我們設計是二專，長照相關科系的二專。他在學讀書是一年半，最後一學期才到媒合的機構去實習，實習就要給付基本工資，畢業之後跟這個提供實習機構及相關50%費用的機構產業要綁約3年，在這個機構裡面服務3年。"],["劉委員書彬：好，你們這是新型的，但是教育部在這部分過去已經出現了，你們因為是新型的部分。"],["祝司長健芳：去年。"],["劉委員書彬：但是在更早的情況之下，在106年就有所謂的國際新南向產學合作專班，這個部分是106年就在進行了，你們知道嗎？"],["祝司長健芳：對。"],["劉委員書彬：尤其在報告當中也是提到這邊，但是你們現在只針對新的部分去進行。"],["呂次長建德：但是我們這個計畫是從去年。"],["祝司長健芳：去年。"],["呂次長建德：這是衛福部，我們是從去年開始新的計畫。"],["劉委員書彬：對，那個也是教育部，因為你們都是跟教育部合作。"],["呂次長建德：那當然，沒錯。"],["劉委員書彬：但是事實上我們看到的是，監察院在人權委員會的報告當中有提到，去年在新南向專班這個部分，有越南生在工作場域發生了死亡事件。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，您所說的應該是教育部那個方案，我現在要強調的是，我們目前完完全全只是為我們的長照機構，而這個方案是從去年才開始推出。"],["劉委員書彬：好，我知道了，過去那部分是所謂的機構，但是對長照是只有在今年才拉進來，是這樣的狀況？"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["劉委員書彬：那如果這麼少的話，現在缺人力到底有缺多少？你們不是缺了很多嗎？現在就是預計120人在慢慢進行就對了？"],["祝司長健芳：跟委員報告，外籍人力有兩塊，這一塊是去年新加的，它的定位是中階，所以能力比較好。另外一塊是藍領的，藍領的就是依據就業服務法第四十六條引進來的，可以到機構裡面來工作，針對這一塊我們也透過勞動部那邊的修法，把本國照服員跟引進的藍領移工1比1的人力，我們已經修法通過了，而它1比1的算法是本國的照服員和護理人力加起來1比1的引進。"],["劉委員書彬：那他們的語言能力夠嗎？如果像你剛才說的二專，他們就只來一年，然後一年半的時候就進入機構實習，他們的語言能力夠嗎？你們有沒有什麼審核標準等等的？"],["祝司長健芳：因為新南向的這一塊，依教育部那邊的要求規定，他們沒有通過語言測驗是要退學的，所以一定會把關，讓他們語言能夠通過。"],["劉委員書彬：好，你們在預算這部分，大概付了多少的經費？對於新型產業專班，應該是新型。"],["祝司長健芳：因為我們這一塊是與產業界合作，所以住宿機構要出50%的經費，依照他們提出的需求，看他們是要2名還是3名還是5名，他們出50%，我們這邊出50%。"],["劉委員書彬：我現在有一個問題，對這些外籍實習生的部分，你們薪水就是給基本工資，那我們問一下，一般勞工做長照的，他們薪水是多少？"],["祝司長健芳：藍領移工的這一塊……"],["劉委員書彬：不要說移工，我是說一般的，正常的長照在住宿式機構的部分，薪水是多少？"],["祝司長健芳：在住宿式機構，基本上他的薪資因為是本國……"],["劉委員書彬：本國勞工。"],["祝司長健芳：對，要留住他們，所以相關的薪資一定會依據他們的能力跟條件去議定。"],["劉委員書彬：大概平均有多少？你們應該有這個數據吧？因為長照人力的缺乏可能是低薪的緣故啊！"],["祝司長健芳：對，我們住宿型機構基本上起薪大概都有超過3萬元。"],["劉委員書彬：3萬元。"],["祝司長健芳：對，都有超過3萬元。"],["劉委員書彬：長照3萬元，那現在……"],["祝司長健芳：可是這個不包括他們還會輪班的一些津貼。我們為了讓本國資深的照服員能夠久任在這個機構，所以從去年就有一支計畫開始推動，機構只要願意推薦機構裡面本國的照服員最多兩成的人力來接受培訓，培訓完了之後，4年期間我們都會給這名受完訓通過測驗的本國照服員每個月5,000元的留任津貼。"],["劉委員書彬：對，但是這一部分你可以看到，它實際上缺了很多，你們預計長照的服務員未來要準備到什麼樣程度的供應才是夠的？"],["祝司長健芳：因為各行各業基本上是哪邊的職場越友善，薪資待遇越高，必然流動，這個部分因為現階段……"],["劉委員書彬：所以你們還是沒有辦法提出來，因為它就是缺工嘛！所以你們要引進外籍的，尤其新南向是屬於GDP比我們低的嘛！這部分已經呈現很重要的問題，就是長照人員他們的薪水基本上是低的，本國低，外勞更是用基本工資，他們做的是非常勞動的工作，這部分應該要去做很大的改進，目前你們有沒有預期未來這個外籍的產學專班能夠補到多少人力？目標是多少？"],["祝司長健芳：這個部分等於是到外面去招生，能不能順利進來，還是有一些外交的問題。"],["劉委員書彬：所以沒有目標？沒有目標值？"],["祝司長健芳：我們即使設了目標，也不是整個衛福部可以掌控，所以我們有積極請外交部這些相關單位來協助，讓願意報名進來的學生能夠順利入境。"],["劉委員書彬：這一部分其實有很大的問題，因為我上次在總質詢的時候問到教育部，教育部已經發現，如果有一些學校遇到問題的時候，它就會做處理，甚至在今年7月份有不合法就要關閉，我現在的重點是說，包括你們在預算還有未來實施這部分，是不是能夠在一個月內向本席做初步的報告？"],["祝司長健芳：好，沒問題，謝謝。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉委員，謝謝部長。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘，蔡易餘委員不在。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇，王鴻薇委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","顏寬恒、顏寬恒，顏寬恒委員不在。","黃珊珊、黃珊珊，黃珊珊委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","接續請劉建國召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳瑩","廖偉翔","陳培瑜","李坤城","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","劉書彬","劉建國","黃國昌","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲"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謝謝主席主席請一下長照師 處市長委員好市長好 市長我只有問你讓部長跟市長休息一下你能不能"},{"start":27.762,"end":38.116,"text":"用最簡單的方式最少的時間大概跟我講一下長照2.0跟長照3.0最大的區別到底在哪裡"},{"start":39.056,"end":48.664,"text":"好那簡單講其實他的基本的理念跟架構其實都是延續的都是以人為本社區為基礎提供連續性的照顧那在3.0要去強化的就是2.0過往跟醫療的那個銜接上面還是沒有很及時所以我們3.0要強化他能夠及時能夠接住銜接上盡量無縫能夠銜接"},{"start":64.997,"end":85.835,"text":"醫療面向就有很多元所以這一塊是我們一個強化重點第二個強化重點就是我們要導入一些積極的賦能就是配合在醫療這一端接過來之後不管他今天是在家還是今天在社區在這些相關不同場域裡面怎麼樣透過一些怎麼樣的鼓勵機制讓我們的長輩能夠被訓練讓他可以自主生活盡量減少依賴照顧這是第二個部分"},{"start":93.621,"end":117.86,"text":"那第三個部分當然會有伴隨因為2.0這邊有一些的檢討的一些服務的不足那這個部分會來積極強化把這樣的一個資源補起來老師我為什麼這樣子問呢因為就是我們從長照1.0 2.0到3.0其實我個人是不大喜歡這樣子的分類長照制度就是一個制度"},{"start":118.641,"end":136.676,"text":"那你剛剛講的也是在長照制度裡面加入醫療體系事實上醫療支撐事實上這個本來也是廣義長照的一環我實在是不知道為什麼你們會一直很喜歡用1.0、2.0、3.0我怕過幾年到10.0所以我才刻意提出這個問題"},{"start":144.522,"end":171.513,"text":"就是增加醫療的照護其實本身本來就是長照的一環長照是不可能脫離脫離醫療照護的好那我我先問就是說我們長照需求服務的涵蓋率是用需求人數推估的需求人數好那我問你"},{"start":174.614,"end":193.554,"text":"上一次的推估在113年就去年必須要需求的人需求的人數是94萬那衛福部最新的統計數字出來只有將近90萬差距超過5% 為什麼"},{"start":198.986,"end":217.276,"text":"委員您提的94萬是在長照2.0的核定本裡面的退估數那我們目前的退估數是因應人工普查的資料出來之後那有一些改變因為2.0的時期當時用的一些相關的參數包括失能率那時候是12.6"},{"start":218.797,"end":247.457,"text":"那到了這個等於在2.0執行的過程裡面因為人口普查又重新公告了已經從12.6調高到13.3所以我們就是重新把這些參數重算那對於過往2.0裡面有一些這個相關的一些身障的一些推估他採取的是高推估跟衰弱的部分也採取高推估那我們就是在這一批整體重新做一些處理低推估"},{"start":248.838,"end":263.621,"text":"我們把它調整因為因為身心障礙者65歲以上的增加幅度高可是他未滿65歲的這一塊他的年輕型的障礙者他其實人數是沒有那樣子的大幅增加所以我們就是改採低推估"},{"start":264.022,"end":291.931,"text":"所以才有這個數字的一個變動我這樣子問呢是因為其實事實上就是要推估本身就是一件很困難的事情啦要精準的推估本來就不過呢因為你推估出來的人數會影響到需求服務涵蓋率對不對所以我希望你們就是我不覺得"},{"start":294.249,"end":321.679,"text":"政府必須要把很多數字美化我覺得我現在不是在說你這件事我個人覺得就是應該是多少人數就多少人數我們服務的多少就服務多少總是盡可能的把事情做到最完美這個才是對的總比把數字文字"},{"start":322.779,"end":348.486,"text":"做的美化這個高明的多好不好我大概就是希望你們以後再推估的時候可以再精準一點因為這個會影響影響影響到後續很多很多東西包括預算的的編列好不好跟委員報告3.0這邊的退估就是用分零了因為我們後來新的調查有分零的失能率好"},{"start":350.818,"end":372.491,"text":"台灣今年開始邁入超高齡社會高齡人口的總數已經超過20%我們目前面臨的有關長照比較有問題的是台灣接受長照服務的平均年齡是76歲"},{"start":374.738,"end":398.883,"text":"也就是說在十年後戰後嬰兒潮的人口在這十年之內會逐步達到長照需求那現在有幾個問題我來人力上你們可能要盡可能的儲備長照所需要的人力另外一個就是我們的財源"},{"start":402.77,"end":425.522,"text":"因為戰鬥嬰兒潮的人數太多了占台灣總人口數的占比太高了根據OECD的國家統計長照的支出大概要占GDP的1.8%而且八成為公共長照支出"},{"start":428.382,"end":457.447,"text":"事實上我再講一次長照的總體支出要佔到GDP的1.8%而且其中這1.8%要八成是公共長照支出可是台灣這幾年長照的總支出未達GDP的百分之一公共支出更只佔四成"},{"start":461.735,"end":481.707,"text":"假如說比照韓國長照支出佔GDP的1.11.1就好了台灣的長照支出必須要有2600億以上可是今年只編列了900多億也就是說900多億是我們用韓國的1.1%來做比例"},{"start":490.256,"end":513.178,"text":"其實我們現在編列的只有必須編列的四成市長我這段話你有聽懂嗎有好那我想要問一下就是說面對人口結構的變化未來的支出一定會一直上升"},{"start":516.628,"end":543.076,"text":"在財源上我們現在單靠遺產稅、菸稅、菸捐和房地合一稅可以支應嗎目前是無餘因為我們現在累積的盈餘現在有2039億那我剛才就講了嘛因為我們的公共支出佔比太低嘛人民自行吸收的太高嘛"},{"start":545.175,"end":560.149,"text":"所以你才會覺得夠用嘛你假如說是按照OECD的標準八成必須要是公共長照裁員那你是不夠的嘛"},{"start":561.549,"end":584.89,"text":"這部分也要跟委員說明因為畢竟就是我們不管今天是長照還是小朋友幼兒的照顧其實在國家的立場其實是幫忙家庭一起來照顧大概沒有辦法替代家人照顧所以這個跟OECD國家有一些是走福利體系的國家的概念其實是不一樣"},{"start":586.191,"end":593.434,"text":"就是因為賦稅的問題師長這麼說呢我是覺得台灣這幾年的經濟成長跟台灣邁向高齡化台灣強調福利國政策然後我們把長照做這樣子的"},{"start":610.953,"end":635.612,"text":"的定位我覺得我覺得我好像不能介紹因為福利國家的話基本上的稅負每一個民眾的繳稅的稅負要高那現階段我們台灣的整個的一個稅負大概只有佔14%跟福利國家高達三四成以上是截然不同對對不是我現在我現在我現在講的是說是說"},{"start":637.625,"end":643.824,"text":"譬如我這樣子講啦市長你把長照定義為個人的"},{"start":646.91,"end":672.02,"text":"應該是說政府沒有辦法替代家人照顧沒有辦法替代對 是協助家人一起來做照顧就跟小朋友的照顧是一樣的概念所以我們已經沒有 我們不排富了相關的都普及式的都可以提供只是提供的方式是跟著家人一起來我因為時間的關係啦所以我大概也不想佔用其他的同事太多時間"},{"start":675.604,"end":682.454,"text":"就剛剛包括我的題目裡面就大家都覺得你們現在編了900多億從屏東到台中"},{"start":689.551,"end":713.712,"text":"到澎湖我相信是全台灣都覺得關懷據點給的經費太少那我也一直強調我向來主張預防勝於治療關懷據點做得好後續的長照支出就會少所以關懷據點這個從伙食到人力這個你們真的必須要很快的把"},{"start":715.433,"end":744.093,"text":"把補助金額提高我最後一個問題讓你回去想就是說假如說我們真的真的國家的財政沒有辦法支出很多的長照讓高齡化的台灣可以有一個安定的長照制度來支應老人生活為什麼"},{"start":745.638,"end":752.18,"text":"為什麼你們從來不考慮從來不考慮走保險制保險制 長照保險或者是保險跟公務預算雙軌這個我讓你待會去想不過我想我會找一天好好的跟你們討論這個問題謝謝市長 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員"},{"start":774.582,"end":774.683,"text":"謝謝袁偉仁 謝謝市長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1114,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（13時16分）謝謝主席，主席請一下長照司祝司長。"],["主席：請祝司長。"],["祝司長健芳：委員好。"],["楊委員曜：司長好。司長，我直接問你，讓部長跟次長休息一下。"],["祝司長健芳：好。"],["楊委員曜：你能不能用最簡單的方式、最少的時間，大概跟我講一下長照2.0跟長照3.0最大的區別到底在哪裡？"],["祝司長健芳：簡單講他的基本理念跟架構其實都是延續的，都是以人為本，社區為基礎，提供連續性的照顧。在3.0要去強化的就是2.0過往跟醫療的銜接上還是沒有很及時，所以我們3.0要強化並能夠及時接住，銜接上儘量能夠無縫銜接，因為醫療面向很多元，所以這塊是我們的一個強化重點。","第二個強化重點是我們要導入一些積極的賦能，就是配合醫療端接過來之後，不管今天是在家還是社區，在這些相關不同的場域裡面，如何透過一些鼓勵機制，讓我們的長輩能夠被訓練到可以自主生活，儘量減少依賴照顧，這是第二個部分。第三個部分是伴隨因為2.0一些檢討和服務的不足，這個部分會來積極強化，把這樣的資源補起來。"],["楊委員曜：司長，我為什麼這樣子問，因為我們從長照1.0、2.0到3.0，其實我個人是不太喜歡這樣子的分類。長照制度就是一個制度，你剛剛講的也是在長照制度裡面加入醫療體系，事實上醫療的支撐本來也是廣義長照的一環。我實在是不知道為什麼，你們一直很喜歡用1.0、2.0、3.0，我怕過幾年到10.0，所以我才刻意提出這個問題，增加醫療的照護本來就是長照的一環，長照是不可能脫離醫療照護的。我先問，我們長照需求服務的涵蓋率，是用需求人數跟……"],["祝司長健芳：推估的需求人數。"],["楊委員曜：那我問你，上一次的推估是113年，也就是去年，需求的人數是94萬，但衛福部最新的統計數字出來只有將近90萬，差距超過5%，為什麼？"],["祝司長健芳：委員，您提的94萬是在長照2.0核定本裡的推估數。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["祝司長健芳：我們目前的推估數，是因應人口普查的資料出來之後有一些改變，因為2.0時期用的一些相關參數，包括失能率當時是12.6，後來在2.0執行的過程中，因為人口普查又重新公告了，已經從12.6調高到13.3。所以我們就重新把這些參數重算，對於過往2.0裡面有一些身障相關的推估，它採取的是高推估，在衰弱的部分也採取高推估，那我們就是在這一批整體重新做一些處理，包括……"],["楊委員曜：低推估。"],["祝司長健芳：我們把它調整，因為身心障礙者65歲以上的增加幅度高，可是未滿65歲的這一塊，年輕型的障礙者其實人數是沒有那樣子的大幅增加，所以我們就是改採低推估，才會有數字的變動。"],["楊委員曜：我這樣子問是因為要精準地推估本身就是一件很困難的事情，不過你推估出來的人數會影響到需求服務涵蓋率，對不對？"],["祝司長健芳：是。"],["楊委員曜：我不覺得政府必須要把很多數字美化，我現在不是在說你這件，我個人覺得應該是多少人數就多少人數，我們服務了多少就服務多少，總是盡可能地把事情做到最完美，這個才是對的，總比把數字、文字美化高明得多，好不好？我希望你們以後在推估的時候可以再精準一點，因為這個會影響到後續很多東西，包括預算的編列，好不好？"],["祝司長健芳：跟委員報告，我們3.0這邊的推估就是用分齡了，因為我們後來新的調查有分齡的失能率。"],["楊委員曜：好，臺灣今年開始邁入超高齡社會，高齡人口的總數已經超過20%，我們目前面臨長照比較有問題的是，臺灣接受長照服務的平均年齡是76歲，也就是說，戰後嬰兒潮的人口在10年之內會逐步達到長照需求，那現在有幾個問題，在人力上，你們要盡可能地儲備長照所需要的人力，另外一個就是我們的財源，因為戰後嬰兒潮的人數太多了，占臺灣總人口數的占比太高了。","根據OECD國家統計，長照支出大概要占GDP的1.8%，而且八成為公共長照支出。司長，我再講一次，長照的總體支出占GDP的1.8%，而且這1.8%要有八成是公共長照支出，可是臺灣這幾年的長照總支出未達GDP的1%，公共支出更只占四成。假如說比照韓國長照支出占GDP的1.1%就好了，臺灣的長照支出必須要有2,600億以上，可是今年只編列了九百多億，也就是說，我們假如用韓國的1.1%來做比例，其實我們現在編列的只有必須編列的四成，司長，我這一段話你有聽懂嗎？"],["祝司長健芳：有。"],["楊委員曜：好，那我想要問一下，面對人口結構的變化，未來的支出一定會一直上升，在財源上我們現在單靠遺產稅、菸稅菸捐和房地合一稅，可以支應嗎？"],["祝司長健芳：目前是無虞，因為我們現在累積的盈餘……"],["楊委員曜：目前是什麼？"],["祝司長健芳：現在有2,039億在我們的長照基金裡面。"],["楊委員曜：好，那我剛才就講了嘛！因為我們的公共支出占比太低，人民自行吸收得太高，所以你才會覺得夠用嘛！假如說你按照OECD的標準，八成必須要是公共長照財源，那這樣是不夠的嘛！"],["祝司長健芳：是，這個部分也要跟委員說明，不管今天是長照還是小朋友幼兒的照顧，在國家的立場其實是幫忙家庭一起來照顧，大概沒有辦法替代家人照顧，所以這個跟OECD國家有一些是走福利體系的概念其實是不一樣，就是因為賦稅的問題。"],["楊委員曜：司長這麼說的話，我是覺得臺灣這幾年的經濟成長跟臺灣邁向高齡化，臺灣強調福利國政策，然後我們把長照做這樣子的定位，我覺得我好像不能接受耶！"],["祝司長健芳：因為福利國家基本上它的稅賦，每一個民眾繳稅的稅賦要高，現階段我們臺灣整個稅賦大概只有占14%，與福利國家高達三、四成以上是截然不同。"],["楊委員曜：不是，我現在講的是說，我這樣子講啦！司長，你把長照定義為個人的……"],["祝司長健芳：應該是說政府沒有辦法替代家人照顧。"],["楊委員曜：沒有辦法替代。"],["祝司長健芳：對，是協助家人一起來照顧，就跟小朋友的照顧是一樣的概念，所以我們已經不排富了，相關的都普及式的可以提供，只是提供的方式是跟著家人一起來。"],["楊委員曜：因為時間的關係，我也不想占用其他同事太多時間，你看啦！包括我剛剛的題目裡面，大家都覺得你們現在編了九百多億，從屏東到臺中到澎湖，我相信是全臺灣都覺得關懷據點給的經費太少，而且我也一直強調，我向來主張預防勝於治療，關懷據點做得好，後續的長照支出就會少，所以關懷據點從伙食到人力，你們真的必須要很快地把補助金額提高。","我最後一個問題讓你回去想，假如說國家的財政真的沒有辦法支出很多的長照，讓高齡化臺灣可以有一個安定的長照制度來支應老人生活，為什麼你們從來不考慮走保險制、長照保險？或者是保險跟公務預算雙軌，這個我讓你帶回去想，不過我會找一天好好地跟你們討論這個問題，謝謝司長，謝謝主席。"],["祝司長健芳：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員，謝謝司長。","接續我們請劉書彬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳瑩","廖偉翔","陳培瑜","李坤城","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","劉書彬","劉建國","黃國昌","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲"],"page_start":163,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「長照2.0執行情形檢討及3.0未來規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長就「澳洲進口豬腳驗出含萊克多巴胺，如何加強肉品食安查驗，讓民眾\n放心」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00004"}}},{"id":"161128","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161128","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c15984ef59ce82e1aebf088656e97d34035710b400f5dcf9244763dcd5b5be02255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"13:05:16 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邱部長答應本席說那你這一屆要把這個護病三班比的這個你要入法完成雖然慢了一點時間但是我們還是精進去推動但是在他們的薪資我們跟其他國家來比較還是差很多"},{"start":379.148,"end":401.124,"text":"所以這個也就是本席認為說我們必須要從根源你如果只有叫私人機構你把它提高薪資那政府的立場在哪裡所以我們看到面臨到社會的面向是迫切需要的所以我就把這個功課給您也就是在我們的量能以及人力方面還有一個次長"},{"start":401.884,"end":418.317,"text":"還有一個最重要的在他們整個的行政流程上面可以讓他們怎麼樣去簡化本身認為這必須要去做一個好好的研議尤其在整個行政流程方面怎麼讓他們簡化就像他們說的我們照顧人都照顧得很沒有時間了"},{"start":423.801,"end":445.189,"text":"當然你不能完全沒有行政那你這個行政方面可以去再更精進簡化他們的流程減低這些照顧者他們的一個時間的壓縮本席認為應該是全方面的你認同嗎你非常認同你就把資料給本席接下來本席還要跟你討論的一個議題部長"},{"start":447.91,"end":465.086,"text":"也就是我 次長你也先留一下因為現在很多的孩子都到外地去所以我們的長輩 以前我們說坐在家裡看天所以失智啊 這些很多 我們很不敢好不容易大家推動的關懷戰"},{"start":467.088,"end":484.604,"text":"那這個關懷站的非常好你家有菜你拿菜在那邊剪大家聊聊天非常好11點吃完餐回去看個電視他睡覺這個非常好我真的是超級感動的這個政策我也感謝我們所有的廠商界"},{"start":485.485,"end":503.247,"text":"善心人士大家來幫忙可是你也不能只有很多的委員都提出你也不能只有依靠民間的來照顧我們的長輩我們必須政府要有這個責任來照顧啊比如說你的這個每個月給人家一萬二"},{"start":504.761,"end":529.003,"text":"的這個伙食費像我們有100個 90幾個對不對 那請教那一餐才多少錢雖然你們一餐基本號稱35塊但是實際上我們的通膨問題已經多少了我們還是要讓長者吃的放心吃的營養啊所以你這個16000多久沒調了 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請國土署蔡組長主席 委員"},{"start":21.517,"end":44.899,"text":"好 蔡組長我先請問一下那當然這幾年我們行政院針對我們推動人本交通政策有在強力推動那在本席的選區也有開花結果那在去年7月1號我們內政部國土署有推動一個全民參與街道改善平台那這個案子組長知道嗎我瞭解"},{"start":45.919,"end":70.509,"text":"那這個案子那時候也有在我們的選區陽梅針對中心路人本環境多目標改善工程那個時候有進行上網投票那當然本席也有在跟民眾請大家來針對這部分盡量去投那當然後來也爭取到我們這一梯次的第一名那所以後來這個案子有在進行"},{"start":71.189,"end":92.708,"text":"那後來也針對這個部分我們也辦了一場會刊跟一場說明會然後到今年3月的時候也特別邀請我們的路權團體來到服務處那針對負責規劃的桃園市政府來進行對話那把這個人本交通的理念設計在我們的工程裡面"},{"start":93.368,"end":108.608,"text":"那可是最主要就是說我們在這個案子通過補助之後其實在地方上也有一些雜音像我們去年通過的時候在10月份辦說明會的時候那有些在地的"},{"start":109.489,"end":136.786,"text":"電家因為憂慮這個工程會影響他的生意也對人本交通這個遠景勸缺想像那甚至有些民大還懷疑是網路外地人灌票那當然在這部分進行的時候我開說明會的時候也有跟他們講那當然我們就針對願意施作的部分我們先施工如果沒有爭議我們才會優先來施作"},{"start":137.526,"end":158.38,"text":"那今天會講的這一部分就是其實這個部分人本交通當然這理念是很好但是在推動的過程中跟民眾之間可能有很多的地方是需要溝通有很多的疑慮那像這一部分我們對於地方工作坊的部分我們像這一部分會針對這個預算會對他們有補助讓他們去協調溝通這一部分的問題嗎會 會"},{"start":165.778,"end":192.811,"text":"所以我們本身國土署也針對地方工作坊這部分預算補助是有編列的因為我們在補助工程的貴大設計費用裡面它本來就可以做工作坊經費是可以含在裡面好 所以因為我們是有碰到這樣的問題因為我覺得這個補助施作法是另外一個問題反而溝通協調好像反而是我們所面臨到最大的問題所以希望我們地方工作坊"},{"start":193.231,"end":209.76,"text":"把這些疑義能夠讓他跟民眾說清楚因為這好的東西有時候沒有講清楚反而會得到一些更負面的阻力所以我也希望說我們在施作的時候這部分也要來編列預算去排除這些問題因為你這個我們會全力支持"},{"start":210.78,"end":237.248,"text":"還有我們全民參與街道改善平台這一部分因為我們當初有講要做已經在設計規劃當中那地方政府也針對目前的工作設計進度可是因為民眾會覺得說從說明會之後也看到我們這個平台當初也很多人去投票後來也有很多的鄉親也很關注可是發現我們這個平台對於一些進度"},{"start":238.188,"end":255.775,"text":"好像都沒有去更新 是不是這部分可以在平台上稍微注意讓我們有一些進度能夠讓民眾去知道這我回去我會加強就是我們會跟地方政府保持更密切的聯繫把相關的說明會會刊之類的訊息都把它拋上來"},{"start":256.435,"end":268.45,"text":"對 因為我們是想說本來已經有設計這個改善平台其實這是很好啦而且我們國土署本身也有這個追蹤機制那所以我們希望這個平台齁能夠"},{"start":269.67,"end":292.701,"text":"好好的去使用對於當初有投票還有關心的鄉親我們都能夠適時讓他瞭解我們地方的進度也知道我們政府一直在持續在進行這一部分那希望這部分也來幫我們來好好的瞭解一下因為我們這個中心路我們那時候通過之後我們發現"},{"start":293.962,"end":322.901,"text":"在楊梅埔興的中心路通過之後周邊很多的道路很多的里長很多的民眾都覺得這是一個很好的政策而且大家對於人本交通人行道的改善設置都非常的注重所以除了中心路之外現在很多周邊的民眾也要求希望能夠做這個人行道的改善那所以這部分好像我們國土署也有請我們市政府養工處在納入設計是不是"},{"start":324.603,"end":333.757,"text":"好那這部分也感謝我們國土署那也希望持續來幫我們追蹤進行希望盡快來完成沒問題我們一定全力協助好 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我們請交通部陳部長"},{"start":14.379,"end":24.747,"text":"我想請教一下 就是說針對這個兒童還有青少年交通事故我們來看一下 應該是左手邊這邊 這是這個2020年去年的一個數據我們看兒童0到12歲 他其實這一個死傷人數是增加的 增加了1.5%那雖然是這個少年是13到17歲有降的6.8%"},{"start":37.157,"end":56.414,"text":"但是呢 就是在兒童這部分12歲以下的他的這個數據還是呈現這一個死傷人數還是成長那我不曉得說部長或市長這邊有去研究過就是說 討論過就是說這兒童的這個交通事故他那個死傷人數他仍然降不下來的原因在哪裡嗎"},{"start":57.635,"end":85.033,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們都一直有掌握啦所以我每次在開這個我們每個月的這個道路安全的這個記者會的時候看到數據也都很關心兒少的部分那兒少的部分有幾個層面一個是有可能他是爸爸媽媽在或者是由別人來在那這個過程當中的安全性其實要想辦法去加強包含安全座椅也好或者是安全帽也好那另外有一些所謂的兒少的部分也包含了少年"},{"start":85.874,"end":107.173,"text":"那青少年有一些是因為騎自行車或者是無照騎機車的這個比例其實是相當的高那這個部分我們也特別關注在無照駕駛的部分看要怎麼從學校的層面去輔導他不要做這樣的事那另外就是說我們在罰則上面也希望能夠加重應該說他的監護人也要去注意到這個問題"},{"start":108.354,"end":130.901,"text":"因為最主要你說12歲以下的 比如說那當然就是說我會把焦點再放在說在往上學的途中的這個區域我不曉得你們有沒有做過這方面的研究因為剛剛部長是提出很多的因素嘛那如果是在學校周圍這附近你們有沒有做過這個研究跟調查我們有沒有這方面的數據學校附近的受傷比例"},{"start":131.995,"end":145.388,"text":"我想說比例可能還在統計不過也跟委員報告基本上我們現在跟國土署也非常重視校園周邊道路的一個改善尤其是那個通學校現在據我了解國土署在今年被要求"},{"start":146.889,"end":176.229,"text":"直轄市先從直轄市說每個直轄市有兩個示範區做出來讓做出來以後如果成效會讓其他縣市來效法那此外我們也注意到就是說可能讓小朋友了解說他從他家裡到學校一些通學路徑上的一些潛在的危險地點在哪裡如果進入那邊要注意哪些事項所以我們現在也補助地方政府去拍攝這學校這邊這樣一個通學的一個叫安全影片"},{"start":177.129,"end":201.832,"text":"在拍攝過程中我們也希望說學生還有家長跟老師都能夠共同穿希望說拍攝影片讓學生能更了解在通學過程中要注意哪些交安全指示通學就是從家裡到這個學校的這一段我們希望是安全的不論是去或是回來但是就是說你們不論是提到說有這個示範區或是說有特定的學校的這個"},{"start":202.452,"end":217.567,"text":"周邊的這個道路環境的改善我覺得那都有經費有投進去但是我是覺得說那個點太少比如說像我自己三重圍裡你大概有幾間學校他們這一個學校旁邊的這一個人行道或是說接送區其實都做得很好"},{"start":218.127,"end":233.459,"text":"但是如果沒有在這個示範區裡面這個前面有進去的話很多還是有學校連這個學校的學生要走出來都沒有一個綠色的一個人行道我們就是說這個你已經沒辦法去做這個人行道我們只能做這個"},{"start":234.319,"end":256.961,"text":"路面上我們就畫色這個 你是屬於綠色這個人行道的這部分有些都畫不出來耶 所以我是希望說 這個東西不是只有城鄉差距就是說光是在新北市裡面 那其實就是你有示範的 有經費補助的 那真的是做得不錯但是呢 有些學校 沒有在這一個補助裡面你要讓他畫一條安全的這個路回家 其實都畫不太出來耶"},{"start":257.461,"end":271.762,"text":"包委員這個部分如果學校有需求地方政府有需求他們可以向中央來申請補助我們都會來協助但是現在就是要看地方政府他們能做的量能到哪裡然後再來就是學校有沒有提出這樣的需求"},{"start":272.609,"end":287.337,"text":"有啦其實我們都也是有跟地方政府講啦但是說這個東西就是說當然地方政府也要做但是我是希望說中央的這個經費能夠再多挹注一點啦如果地方政府來申請的話我們大部分都是會協助的好"},{"start":287.877,"end":305.528,"text":"不過財化法通過之後可能又是另外一回事了好那另外一個我再請教就是說就是說我們在2023年道路交通管理罰則這個有把它變得比較這個處罰會比較嚴重但是我看了一下數據2024年的這個行人死傷人數是17162人那當然叫2023年有減少498人然後死亡人數有380人減少至366人"},{"start":316.235,"end":333.183,"text":"但是呢我是看這個數據當然就是重罰之下當然數據上面有稍微下降死亡人數稍微下降但是如果要達到你們2030年死亡人數降50%其實還是有一場蠻長的距離要走耶這個你們要怎麼去做改善方方面面該做的事實在是很多"},{"start":334.764,"end":353.357,"text":"從工程層面我們要做的各方面就已經非常多教育層面也是得做因為駕駛人他的習慣跟他的觀念然後監理面我們也在努力那還有就是執法面這個執法面大概我們會放在最後我們都希望罰則只是一個提醒希望大家不要去犯到這個罰則"},{"start":354.218,"end":382.315,"text":"但是方方面面其實交通部一直都在努力各方面都在努力所以我們在今年的一到二月看到那個整體的這個車禍的死亡人數跟行人的這個死亡人數其實有降到10%整體來說降到10%左右那行人的部分降到15%以下所以這個部分的成效其實初步是有看到的那我們會繼續努力對啊因為這個數據看起來加油的空間還蠻大那我最後再問一個問題"},{"start":383.135,"end":391.488,"text":"就是說有關這個地下停車場我們前瞻的這個預算是不是已經到今年就結束了那接下來你們是不是有一個4年60億的這個計畫"},{"start":394.616,"end":420.842,"text":"我們目前還要再努力爭取那這到底有沒有列進去預算裡面今年還沒有那明年呢我們在爭取因為我們自己像三重至少還有三個停車場上代努力爭取當然中了那現在就是說這個前瞻沒有了然後這四年六十億又不知道說有沒有人確定能拉進去局長能夠確定有能拉進去嗎"},{"start":422.956,"end":447.092,"text":"就是目前就是已經有報行政院在審查中不過就是還沒有確定但是這個我是覺得有這個需求啦不是只有我三重或是新北我覺得就是說因為前瞻計畫裡面這個地下停車場興建是一個非常有感的一個政策啦那我希望說這個有感政策能夠延續下去啦那當然我也會為我自己三重三座地下停車場努力再來爭取當中啦再麻煩了好謝謝謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1182,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時55分）謝謝主席，請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好，辛苦了！我想請教一下，針對兒童還有青少年交通事故，我們來看一下，左手邊這個是2024年去年的一個數據，看兒童0歲到12歲的死傷人數其實是增加的，增加了1.5%，雖然13歲到17歲少年的部分有降了6.8%，但是在兒童部分12歲以下死傷人數這個數據還是呈現成長。我不曉得部長或是次長有沒有去研究過、討論過兒童交通事故死傷人數仍然降不下來的原因在哪裡？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分我們一直都有掌握，所以我每次在開每個月道路安全記者會的時候，看到數據也都很關心兒少的部分。兒少的部分有幾個層面，一個是有可能他是由爸爸媽媽載或者是由別人來載，這個過程當中的安全性其實要想辦法去加強，包含安全座椅或者是安全帽。另外有一些所謂兒少的部分也包含了少年，青少年有一些騎自行車或者是無照騎機車的比例其實相當高，這個部分我們也特別關注，在無照駕駛的部分，看要怎麼從學校層面去輔導他不要做這樣的事。另外就是在罰則上面我們也希望能夠加重，應該要讓他的監護人也要去注意到這個問題。"],["李委員坤城：最主要12歲以下的我會把焦點放在上學途中的這個區域，我不曉得你們有沒有做過這方面的研究？剛剛部長提出很多的因素，如果是在學校周圍附近，你們有沒有做過這個研究跟調查？"],["黃司長運貴：我想受傷比例可能還在統計，不過也跟委員報告，基本上我們現在跟國土署也非常重視校園周邊道路的改善，尤其是通學巷。現在據我了解，國土署在今年被要求先從直轄市……每個直轄市做兩個示範區出來，做出來以後如果有成效，可以讓其他縣市效法。此外我們也注意到，可能讓小朋友了解他從家裡到學校通學路徑上的一些潛在危險地點在哪裡，如果經過那邊要注意哪些事項，所以我們現在也補助地方政府，拍攝學校周邊通學的交通安全影片，在拍攝過程中，我們也希望學生還有家長跟老師都能夠共同參與，希望拍攝這個影片讓學生們更了解在通學過程中要注意哪些交通安全。"],["李委員坤城：好，通學從家裡到學校的這一段，我們希望是安全的，不論是去或是回來。你們不論是提到有示範區或是特定學校周邊的道路環境改善，那都有經費投進去，但是我是覺得點太少。比如我以三重為例，大概有幾間學校，他們學校旁邊的人行道或是接送區其實都做得很好，但是如果沒有在這個示範區裡面，錢沒有進去的話，還是有很多學校連學生走出來都沒有一個綠色的人行道，就是已經沒辦法去做這個人行道，只能做在路面上劃設屬於綠色人行道的這部分，但有些都劃不出來耶！所以我是希望這個東西不是只有城鄉差距，光是在新北市裡面其實就有示範的、有經費補助的真的是做得不錯，但是有些學校沒有在這個補助裡面，你要讓他劃一條安全的路回家其實都劃不太出來。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分如果學校有需求、地方政府有需求，他們可以向中央申請補助，我們都會協助，現在就是要看地方政府能做的量能到哪裡，再來就是學校有沒有提出這樣的需求。"],["李委員坤城：有啦！其實我們也有告訴地方政府，這部分地方政府當然也要做，但本席希望中央的經費能夠再多挹注一點啦！"],["陳部長世凱：如果地方政府來申請的話，我們大部分都會協助。"],["李委員坤城：好，不過財劃法通過之後，可能又是另外一回事了。另外本席再請教一下，2023年道路交通管理處罰條例的罰則修訂的比較重，本席看了數據，2024年行人死傷人數是1萬7,162人，較2023年減少498人，死亡人數由380人減少至366人。當然，在重罰之下，死亡人數有稍微下降，但如果要達到你們2030年死亡人數降50%的目標，其實還有一段滿長的距離，你們要怎麼改善？"],["陳部長世凱：其實方方面面該做的事情很多，從工程層面來說，我們要做的事情就非常多；另外教育層面也得做，因為關係到駕駛人的習慣和觀念；至於監理面，我們也在努力；還有執法面，這部分我們大概會放在最後，因為我們希望罰則只是一個提醒，提醒大家不要觸犯這個罰則，針對方方面面，其實交通部一直在努力。今年一到二月的車禍死亡人數和行人死亡人數，整體來說降到10%左右，行人的部分降到15%以下，所以這個部分的初步成效是有看到的，我們會繼續努力。"],["李委員坤城：對啦！但是就這個數據看起來，加油的空間還是滿大的。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們要努力。"],["李委員坤城：本席最後再問一個問題，有關地下停車場的部分，前瞻預算是不是到今年就結束了？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員坤城：接下來你們是不是有一個4年60億元的計畫？"],["陳部長世凱：目前我們還在努力爭取。"],["李委員坤城：到底有沒有列入預算裡面？"],["陳部長世凱：今年還沒有。"],["李委員坤城：明年呢？"],["陳部長世凱：我們在爭取。"],["李委員坤城：因為像三重，至少還有三個停車場尚待努力爭取，現在前瞻預算沒有了，這個4年60億元的計畫又不知道能不能確定納入。局長，能夠確定納入嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：目前已經報行政院審查中，不過還沒有確定。"],["李委員坤城：本席覺得有這個需求啦！不是只有三重或是新北，在前瞻計畫裡面，地下停車場興建是一個非常有感的政策啦！本席希望這個有感的政策能夠延續下去，當然，本席也是會為三重的三座地下停車場努力爭取，再麻煩了，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","陳培瑜委員、陳培瑜委員，陳培瑜委員不在。","王美惠委員、王美惠委員，王美惠委員不在。","請涂權吉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":162,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-10","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","張啓楷","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","林俊憲","陳雪生","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","黃捷","林國成","林月琴","張雅琳","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","涂權吉","蘇清泉","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部及教育部就「人本交通」及「交通安全」施行狀況進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計\n2案","agenda_id":"1144701_00003"}}},{"id":"161125","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161125","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1224ac39407e03d60ebbe9609d4ca09835710b400f5dcf9248c09dfcc218e895f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:46:50 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謝謝主席 楊全發言 邀請部長請部長委員好部長好 我們繼續來討論行人地域改善的議題那過去呢 台灣被外媒就封為說是行人地域那後來我們朝野所有的這個同仁也好 大家一起要來要求改善"},{"start":34.679,"end":56.473,"text":"那我們那今年的死亡率也有數字也有下降但是成效仍舊還不至於我們的一個理想那政府也喊出了2030年的死亡人數要下降50%你認為我們目前的這些的政策措施教育安全的一個宣導"},{"start":57.553,"end":77.227,"text":"會不會達到 這是本席 首先要請教的因為我們政府規劃在2025年的時候 死亡人數你是要下降10%但是行人 我特別強調的是 行人死亡人數是要下降到15%2027年是要下降18%跟30%"},{"start":79.628,"end":90.114,"text":"所以換句話說跟本席所一直非常在意的行人的這個部分安全本席非常非常的重視喔所以首先想請教部長您的看法"},{"start":91.371,"end":120.278,"text":"是 報告委員您所說的這個是我們的目標我們希望能夠達成那過去的一年多來其實全民都很努力包含中央政府跟地方政府也都在努力那目前看起來以今年的數據來看以今年的數據來看我們一到二月目前統計起來的數據看起來是應該是可以達標應該是可以達標就114年整體死亡要下降10%那行人死亡的下降幅度15%這個至少在一到二月的數據看起來"},{"start":121.198,"end":141.229,"text":"很好也就是本席說的我們既然定了這個標準但是因應我們目前所總統計似乎還達不到這個完整的理想所以在整個方案方面要怎麼樣去精進我們可以滾動式的去檢討所以本席要請教方法我們來討論方法"},{"start":143.05,"end":162.002,"text":"您也宣布了今年會修法祭出更嚴厲的罰則那麼讓未庭讓行人致輕傷起罰的金額由原本的7200塊那麼你們要上調到1.8萬那麼致行人重傷從原本的1.8萬要"},{"start":164.591,"end":178.499,"text":"上調到3.6萬的這個金額那吊銷這個駕照的部分呢由原本的3年你們有意要提高這個年限也就是4到5年所以本席要請教"},{"start":179.54,"end":198.472,"text":"因為據報導我們看到是說預估是會在六月份的時候要執行那請教部長我們什麼時候要上路那你們修法的內容因為我們只是側面的了解依照你們修法的這個內容你預估可以評估到怎麼樣的一個成效請說說明"},{"start":199.352,"end":226.419,"text":"報告委員我們在五月會送行政院轉立法院所以在立法的過程當中我們希望六月能夠來落實這件事情六月落實時間點還是在六月份對我們還是希望在六月份那另外就是說成效的部分其實坦白講我們有很多的面向要去做包含建設也就是設置的工程面那教育層面那監理面執法面也是其中一項而已"},{"start":227.199,"end":247.722,"text":"那我們這次比較針對的是行川縣也就是斑馬縣上面而且我們的處罰加重是針對已經撞傷人或者是已經撞死人的這個罰則那這個部分其實我們認為如果加重的話大家其實是個提醒坦白說用懲罰的方式都只是個提醒告訴大家說這件事很嚴重"},{"start":248.543,"end":271.289,"text":"很好 部長你所說的也就是本席的一個觀念點重罰不是唯一的一個解方你認同重罰不是唯一的解方因此我們要必須相關的配套因為道路交通安全的一個管理以及行人環境的一個改善還有標誌保險的一個設置"},{"start":272.609,"end":292.959,"text":"甚至在整個安全教育意識的這個宣導上面去琢磨這非常重要那我們有了這個共識點本席要跟你繼續討論也就是學區限數的這個部分本席上一次也跟你討論過目前因為本席非常的關心我們的學童通勤安全"},{"start":293.479,"end":306.224,"text":"就像他上下學的安全我認為下一代的安全是非常的重要也是一個依據程式最重要的KPI非常非常的重要所以本席也一再跟交通部你們來討論過我看到韓國"},{"start":309.125,"end":323.642,"text":"他們在學區限速30公里的執行之後呢他們的學童喔他們的學童交通傷亡的大幅下降我看了很感動所以本席要請教台灣我們目前也有這樣的方案"},{"start":324.062,"end":350.212,"text":"而且我們從108年就開始來執行支到現在將近7年我們的成效究竟是如何呢為什麼會這樣子上一次本席問你請教的時候您告訴我這幾十趴那現在的進度有增加嗎請說明好 報告委員這個部分其實我們都一直希望能夠執行台灣也有相關的法令在公學區的部分我們也希望是30的這個時數請教現在的進度進展如何呢"},{"start":351.598,"end":368.204,"text":"目前在學區的改善的部分我請市長回答跟委員報今年我們是預計是要完成159處的在學區周邊道路的改善當然這裡面也包括有個限速這樣一個政策目前為止是統計只有43處已經完成"},{"start":370.643,"end":387.137,"text":"好 部長您聽到了也就是我們還有很大的成長空間上一次告訴我的是大概只有30%左右我希望每一次我質詢的時候都能夠看到一個進展所以因此我要告訴你你既然你的答案"},{"start":388.178,"end":414.823,"text":"是不理想的你要怎麼樣有方法去解決所以本席認為你們應該也可以在日後的道安匯報當中列為你的一個考核指標這一個同時你們可以協助指派了專人來協助各方面來落實這個政策你覺得呢報告委員這個沒有錯這是地方政府要做的那我們未來道安匯報裡面也會把它納入"},{"start":415.043,"end":444.491,"text":"一定要納入 你同意納入 答案會報所以本席在這邊最後跟你討論的也就是說我們有一致的觀念做法它不是唯一的解決方法所以本席必須要提醒要落實整個學區的安全也應該要有其他的配套比如說在我們學校的路口的300公尺這個範圍你的紅綠燈的設置以及你限速的標誌下坡的部分那麼要設置降速的設置"},{"start":445.551,"end":461.421,"text":"道路的標誌以及人行道的一個設置保護措施人行道的寬度要比你車輛的寬度還要更寬嚴禁在學校主要的出入口的地方他不能作為這個停車阻擾了學童的一個同學的安全還有一個"},{"start":466.204,"end":491.232,"text":"降低車輛靠近跟兒童間接接觸的一個衝擊這一點非常的重要因為每一個環境的基礎建設是不一致的但是我們絕對不容許這些的道路這些的車輛直接跟我們的孩童直接去衝突直接去接觸這是我非常非常的嚴謹的要求所以本期提出了這幾項也敬請這個部長你認同嗎"},{"start":493.945,"end":505.824,"text":"這個我們都很認同都很認同要執行喔好要執行那道路交通安全的你們的這個要放入我們學童安全的這個考核指標之一一起加油謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1147,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時46分）好，謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。我們繼續討論行人地獄改善的議題。過去臺灣被外媒封為行人地獄，後來朝野所有的同仁大家一起要求改善，今年的死亡率數字也有下降，但是成效仍舊還不盡理想。政府也喊出了2030年的死亡人數要下降50%，你認為目前的這些政策措施、教育安全的宣導會不會達到？這是本席首先要請教的，因為政府規劃在2025年死亡人數要下降10%，但是行人，我特別強調的是行人死亡人數要下降到15%，2027年要下降18%跟30%。本席一直非常在意的行人安全，本席非常非常重視，所以首先想請教部長的看法。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您所說的這個是我們的目標，我們希望能夠達成。過去的一年多來其實全民都很努力，包含中央政府跟地方政府也都在努力。目前以今年1月到2月統計的數據看起來應該是可以達標，114年整體死亡要下降10%、行人死亡的下降幅度15%，這個至少在1月到2月的數據看起來是達成的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：很好，也就是本席說的，我們訂了這個標準，但是目前統計的數字似乎還達不到完整的理想，在整個方案方面要怎麼樣去精進可以滾動式的檢討，所以本席要請教方法，我們來討論方法。您也宣布了今年會修法祭出更嚴厲的罰則，讓未停讓致行人輕傷起罰的金額由原本的7,200元上調到1.8萬元，致行人重傷從原本的1.8萬元上調到3.6萬元，吊銷駕照的部分由原本的3年有意要提高年限至4年到5年。本席要請教，據報導預估會在6月份的時候執行，請教部長，什麼時候要上路？你們修法的內容我們只是側面的了解，依照你們修法的內容，你預估可以到怎麼樣的成效？請說明。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們在5月會送行政院轉立法院，在立法的過程當中，我們希望6月能夠落實這件事情。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：6月落實？時間點還是在6月份執行？"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們還是希望在6月份。另外就是成效的部分，其實坦白講我們有很多的面向要去做，包含建設，也就是設置的工程面、教育層面、監理面，執法面也是其中一項而已。我們這次比較針對的是行穿線，也就是斑馬線上面，而且我們的處罰加重是針對已經撞傷人或者是已經撞死人的罰則，這個部分我們認為如果加重的話其實是個提醒，坦白說用懲罰的方式都只是個提醒，告訴大家這件事很嚴重，大家在進入行穿線的時候要注意。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：很好，部長所說的也就是本席的觀點，重罰不是唯一的解方。"],["陳部長世凱：對，不是唯一。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你認同重罰不是唯一的解方，因此我們必須要有相關的配套。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為道路交通安全的管理以及行人環境的改善，還有標誌標線的設置，甚至在整個安全教育意識的宣導上面去著墨，這非常重要。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們有了這個共識點，本席要跟你繼續討論的就是學區限速的部分，本席上一次也跟你討論過，目前本席非常關心學童的通勤安全，就像他上下學的安全。我認為下一代的安全非常的重要，這也是一個宜居城市最重要的KPI，非常、非常的重要，所以本席也一再跟交通部討論。我看到韓國在學區限速30公里執行之後，他們學童的交通傷亡大幅下降，我看了很感動。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請教，臺灣目前也有這樣的方案，而且從108年就開始執行，到現在將近7年，我們的成效究竟是如何呢？為什麼會這樣子？上一次本席請教你的時候，你告訴我只有幾十%，現在的進度有增加嗎？請說明。"],["陳部長世凱：好，報告委員，這個部分其實我們都一直希望能夠執行，臺灣也有相關的法令，在通學區我們也希望是30的時速，但是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在的進度、進展如何呢？"],["陳部長世凱：目前在學區改善的部分，我請司長回答。"],["黃司長運貴：跟委員報告，今年我們預計要完成159處學區周邊道路的改善，當然這裡面也包括限速政策，目前為止統計只有43處已經完成。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，部長聽到了，我們還有很大的成長空間，上一次告訴我的是大概只有30%左右，我希望每一次我質詢的時候都能夠看到進展，因此我要告訴你，既然你的答案是不理想的，你要怎麼樣有方法去解決？本席認為你們應該也可以在日後的道安會報當中把這一個列為你的考核指標，同時你們可以指派專人協助各方面，以落實這個政策，你覺得呢？"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，沒有錯，這是地方政府要做的，我們未來道安會報也會把它納入。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一定要納入，你同意納入道安會報。"],["陳部長世凱：好，一定納入，這沒有甚麼問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席在這邊最後跟你討論的也就是我們有一致的觀念，重罰不是唯一的解決方法。本席必須提醒，要落實整個學區的安全也應該要有其他的配套，比如在學校路口300公尺範圍設置紅綠燈、限速的標誌、下坡的部分要有降速設置、道路標誌以及人行道設置保護措施、人行道的寬度要比車輛的寬度還要更寬、在學校主要出入口的地方，不能做為停車而阻撓學童通學的安全，還有一個，降低車輛靠近跟兒童間接接觸的衝擊，這一點非常重要，因為每一個環境的基礎建設是不一致的，我們絕對不容許這些道路的車輛跟我們的孩童直接衝突、直接接觸，這是我非常、非常嚴謹的要求。本席提出了這幾項，敬請部長採納。你認同嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個我們都很認同。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都很認同，那要執行喔！"],["陳部長世凱：所以我們在指引的部分也都有放進去。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，要執行，道路交通安全你們要放入學童安全為考核指標之一。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個都會。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一起加油，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們請李坤城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":162,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-10","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","張啓楷","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","林俊憲","陳雪生","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","黃捷","林國成","林月琴","張雅琳","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","涂權吉","蘇清泉","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部及教育部就「人本交通」及「交通安全」施行狀況進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計\n2案","agenda_id":"1144701_00003"}}},{"id":"161124","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161124","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c18a3cd25cc2a45b87ebbe9609d4ca09835710b400f5dcf924ac136d7d602a4a755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"12:39:23 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因為這個是一個全球城市設計倡議組織他們其實最主要一開始就是北美的交通安全委員會"},{"start":112.136,"end":129.562,"text":"開始的就是有關於就是回到從最脆弱的兒童怎麼樣去照顧他們大人應該要做到哪些事情那這個部分詳細的資訊我們也可以再pass給你們好不好謝謝那下一個就是來講就是交通公務員今天我們的主席剛好也有來質詢到這一題那我就是繼續下去就是"},{"start":130.603,"end":150.005,"text":"據我所知啦齁 全台灣有很多交通公園但是只有這一個是擬真的交通公園也就是說它是真的號誌燈會亮的讓孩子在真實的情境裡面下去學習的但我不確定我的數據是不是正確的所以我不曉得說交通部有沒有掌握我們全台灣有多少的一個交通公園呢"},{"start":150.165,"end":178.63,"text":"報告員這一個擬真公園我有去過這個台南的這個我有去過那目前我們有13處的交通公園那真正擬真的可能沒有這麼多那我們現在桃園監理站監理站已經有做了一個擬真的那我們現在在高雄在雲林還有士林士林也就是我們台北的監理站都是在監理站嘛對不對好我懂那我先確認一件事就是我們在監理站有做但是交通公園擬真的就這個對不對"},{"start":179.85,"end":196.295,"text":"那其他的12個都是交通公園其他縣市我們都是補助啦他們是做交通公園但是真正擬真的我目前只有看到這一點好那這部分我就是想要來跟部長爭取我們可不可以有更多的擬真雖然說我們有監理所但是我想要跟部長說明的就是說他怎麼沒有辦法"},{"start":196.815,"end":212.08,"text":"你真的部分的您看喔在我們的建立所部分他比較是一個月來每個月讓大家來預約他比較是像是一個校外教學的課程好然後呢在東京呢其實光一個東京市他就20個"},{"start":214.061,"end":239.64,"text":"20個交通公園了那其實去年聯合國也都是在講說讓孩子透過遊戲來學習這些東西的話效果會更好那我們有沒有可能讓交通公園有更多呢因為那個是小孩可能每一天或是每一個禮拜他都可以去的這樣子的學習效果絕對比他一個禮拜或是一個學期甚至一個學期吧老師了不起大家去一次了不起對所以這樣子我們是不是可以來跟各個縣市"},{"start":241.241,"end":265.598,"text":"看是要提供什麼樣子的講座補助辦法讓大家都來以現在像左邊這個就是台中泉源公園新竹也有台北也有我們是可不可以以現在幫他upgrade就好讓他變接近擬真了這可不可以做到這個建議我們一定會參考就是說以現有的還有12個沒有擬真的我們就跟縣市政府來溝通有沒有需要怎麼樣的補助可以讓他做得更符合實際道路的現況"},{"start":266.659,"end":274.643,"text":"對 因為還有一件事情來 部長您看這一張這也是一個交通公園但是真實的路面上面會有這麼多交通耗製嗎"},{"start":277.148,"end":296.919,"text":"不是吧 對不對這個是哪一個縣市新北市的新店交通公園他很早期做我覺得我肯定當時大家來做這件事情但是我們是不是可以更優化因為我們最主要交通公園就是幫助孩子在真實的環境下面學會如何的安全過馬路那這件事情我想大家現場都有笑不太可能有這麼多號誌"},{"start":298.18,"end":321.393,"text":"對不對他到底要注意落實還是當心台車不可能嘛所以是不是有可能來提除了我們來upgrade之外我們可不可以來跟各縣市的請各縣市的我們這些交通主管機關來協助排列我們現在的交通公園裡面還有沒有哪些要來做調整修正接近我們來跟他們討論看怎麼優化好不好優化的層面我們盡量來協助地方政府"},{"start":321.817,"end":338.455,"text":"好 那這部分我們大概什麼時候可以來跟部長再追 再 下一次的進度呢我們最近是有跟地方政府都有在開到岸的聯繫的這個會議啦另外再找各縣來我們找各縣市來討論大概三個月的時間好不好三個月喔 跟各縣市溝通完畢可以再快一點嗎"},{"start":349.482,"end":362.366,"text":"我們有一個全民參與街道改善平台的一個計畫平台我覺得這是一個很好的讓全民一起來參與可是我發現裡面有一些問題就是第一個提示有八個案子喔可是有七個案子都有狀況"},{"start":363.826,"end":383.216,"text":"而且這七個案子都預期了而且再進去看喔很多案件完全沒有任何的資料所以這個平台到底實際上是照理來講他應該要讓民眾知道我提了這個案子之後我的進度是什麼可是好像完全沒有達到這個效果可不可以簡單說明一下為什麼這是國土署的一個平台我是不是請國土署好 謝謝"},{"start":386.068,"end":406.696,"text":"委員這邊報告因為我們這個是大概半年前先公告地點那現在地方政府大概都還在做規劃跟民眾溝通的階段那如果有申請規劃案的部分我們就會在網路上公開這樣子但是問題是你看嘉義市案件就非常的齊全了新竹市是什麼都沒有"},{"start":408.503,"end":429.828,"text":"因為新竹市這個案子當地反彈力量很大對 民眾抗議的非常嚴重對 那我想問一下 那我們這樣沒關係 我想時間可能有限啦我們會會約時間來詳細的討論好不好因為不能讓這種參與形同虛設嘛 好不好其實我們是想製造大家對話的機會對 可是現在看起來是好像沒有任何進度啊 好不好 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報告委員 如果這個部分還沒有給您回應的話 那是我們的不對 給您抱歉那我回去趕快去追 看什麼時候可以趕快給您報告因為我覺得過去我針對執行 然後稿子收到有時候是叫我讀法條 現在反而稿子都還不給我了我不知道為什麼會有這樣 麻煩江部"},{"start":66.489,"end":73.818,"text":"那信守承諾那今天是我們來談人本交通跟交通安全過去這30年我是非常關心這個課題的首先我要針對於我們的宣傳經費那這個部分的確這是被刪掉1200萬可是還是有經費預算不過在宣傳的管道跟"},{"start":85.911,"end":106.693,"text":"我們的方式上我是有點意見的比如說過去我們常常看到很多有時候是廠商他根本不懂得交通安全可是他卻要來承辦這樣子的業務的時候有時候活動內容坦白講事實上是跟安全是脫鉤的甚至宣傳的管道也非常重要可是會看到的是什麼"},{"start":108.015,"end":133.612,"text":"行人密集活動的場域裡面很少看到像譬如大眾運輸站就很少看到你談人本交通這些相關的觀念我覺得有點可惜所以難怪我們就來看數據也就是說前幾天媒體自己也有報導我想部長應該有看到這個人本交通政策在民間的知曉度非常的低只有高達八成的民眾是不知道"},{"start":134.352,"end":156.014,"text":"什麼叫做人本交通啊根本不知道政策內容是什麼我想這也是一個警訊所以部長我知道交通部非常努力也很願意做公眾教育跟宣傳能不能針對這個部分回過頭去看看你委託的廠商到底懂不懂交通安全內容上會不會是上市"},{"start":156.573,"end":167.167,"text":"反向反而對於安全沒有幫助還有一個管道方式是不是應該去思考一下人多密集的地方來做我覺得這部長可不可以說明一下"},{"start":168.126,"end":196.607,"text":"是 報告委員兩個部分因為宣導面確實委員一直在希望我們能夠加強也確實應該加強那兩個部分一個部分是執行的層面到底效果好不好內容好不好看然後我們投放的點對不對這個部分我們要來做檢討這個沒有問題包含您在提醒的我們所委託的單位他對於內容到底了不了解這個部分我們會來做檢討那二方面其實因為交通的宣導的面向可以說是非常的多"},{"start":198.008,"end":214.995,"text":"對客運業者啦對客運駕駛啦對各個方方面面非常多那我們也希望說預算能夠增加一些不過很可惜我們的預算沒有辦法增加我知道被刪了被刪以外也被動那每次只要提到說我們宣傳預算要增加大家就意見很多"},{"start":215.715,"end":228.19,"text":"那這個部分我們在有限的預算我們盡量把它做好委員您剛剛提醒的我們來把它關注一下該檢討的部分把它檢討修正我覺得尤其你現在講說人本交通可是大家都不知道的話大概你要在民間去推就有點困難"},{"start":229.264,"end":242.835,"text":"那接下來我們來談一個就是我想今天報紙上也大家都在看載了也就是大家都很支持就是我們的行人專用10項那支持度有84.7%還行人早開10項89.6%"},{"start":247.512,"end":263.197,"text":"相信這也是為什麼要去推動我想你們報告已經寫很多那媒體也報導很多可是我們也要來看我回頭去看14期的院班方案裡邊我也看到確實交通部有規劃要普設型的號誌燈"},{"start":264.818,"end":283.935,"text":"打算因時因地質疑的去調整就是那個實質開啟的方式我認為這是很好的一步我也相當支持畢竟有耗資用路人才能夠依循才能夠兼顧效率跟安全不過我很好奇的是現在耗資等等的普及率如何部長你有沒有掌握數據"},{"start":284.976,"end":298.772,"text":"報告委員,其實我們現在有新的綱要,道路交通安全的整體的綱要,所有的地方政府其實有朝這個方向在做,到底他們的數據上有沒有辦法掌握這個,有嗎?我們有統計這個數據嗎?"},{"start":300.273,"end":328.257,"text":"我們再來看 就是部長我也不是要去考你 為難你因為時間緊迫 我來不及要可是我手邊上就是17期院班方案的計畫規劃時的統計那時候當時的耗資設置比例真的只能說產息息只有4成 除了雙北呢僅基隆跟新竹有超過5成六都只有雙北 只有5成以上那除了雙北之外 就六都以外的話 只有基隆"},{"start":329.217,"end":345.509,"text":"和新竹有超過五成其他的市都的狀況都非常的慘那我們就來問囉 剛剛你講說要找開啊 專用啊沒有耗資燈怎麼去推動這些呢這些是要搭配耗資燈的所以我不知道這個有沒有要去考慮啊因為你的實相和專用都要考慮耗資燈"},{"start":351.973,"end":376.674,"text":"協助地方政府讓他能夠增加這些耗資不只是交通部內政部國土署也也在幫忙這件事好對然後我們一起合作來協助地方政府因為這些的設置大部分是地方政府的權責那我們會協助他們那經費上需要補助我們也都會幫忙我說你說要給比較做得比較好的獎金可是問題是他沒有耗資燈他就沒有用沒辦法去做專用跟找開始想好這個我覺得也要去"},{"start":377.194,"end":400.013,"text":"提醒那再來我想部長不知道有沒有印象我上次在問是說你會在哪邊你很乾脆的回答是說如果你開車的話會在A那當時的確交通部事實上法令常常在法令規範的時候都對於現實層面事實上是好像沒有"},{"start":400.673,"end":429.166,"text":"考量到真實的那個狀況而且我覺得有點獨步全球的狀況為什麼因為今天講人本交通政策那個人本並不是只有講到行人而是所有的用路人那當時修法的時候我就提醒就你們還是按照這樣修就是新條文定義是說接下來環網線通通要進空的狀態可是你去相對看其他國家來看的話他們可以在環網線然後等待車輛才知道你要過嘛否則我們就在看下一個畫面的時候"},{"start":430.126,"end":455.781,"text":"台灣這種狀況來四邊如果沒有到黃網線誰知道誰要過因為這時候沒有號誌燈誰知道誰要過那就反而是這樣大家就等著那變成是我這個梗圖裡面談的敵不動我不動大家都不動那就不知道誰因為沒有號誌燈所以我們再來看到如果這樣子的狀況裡面到底對學童的保護會更好嗎而且"},{"start":456.721,"end":478.787,"text":"法規之間互相自己打架道路交通安全規則第111條裡面第一項就規定說交叉入口公共汽車招呼這個是不得零停車量可是我們的處罰條例竟然是說可以匯至停車處所那我就會擔心說因為加上前一陣子又有入口的那個交通事故事實上對學童來講傷害是比較大的"},{"start":479.187,"end":503.017,"text":"那如果這兩個法規事實上是互為抵觸的時候放在一起的話又不能臨庭可是又可以劃停車格這不是互相抵觸嗎所以部長這部分是不是可以針對這個去盤點去改善然後去確定否則的話根本沒有辦法幫助尤其事實上我覺得兒少交通事故事實上也是一直我很關心的一個議題那也期待"},{"start":504.229,"end":522.352,"text":"部長這邊能夠多著一些力 不好意思我覺得稍微再給我一點時間來 再看下一頁我覺得交通部有掌握到充足人力跟可是有時候在訂定法規可不可以有自信一點就是像當初在談的時候我們希望事實上是我們的"},{"start":523.735,"end":538.952,"text":"所謂也就是行人庇護島是不是可以15到20比照國外那可是好像而且上方因為還要放一些東西所以可以去考慮這樣就最後你們還是按照國土署的他們訂定的法規我覺得如果要"},{"start":540.087,"end":554.722,"text":"調整就應該要去調整可能會事實上是比較適合的因為正確的事情的話應該要去全力去推動而不是因為國土署有這樣子的規範而反而是這樣這邊可能是不敢動"},{"start":556.323,"end":571.123,"text":"那最後就是我還是希望說是不是在人本交通這邊希望能夠重新檢討宣導那也希望能夠儘速提升我們的行人號誌登錄的普及率還有列管考核還有交通部在遵循意見的時候"},{"start":572.045,"end":594.31,"text":"可不可以多參考國外跟民間團體的意見來檢討一下我剛剛講的那個入口周邊的至少10公尺到底要停車還是要是讓人家臨停還是停車格位劃下去我想部長大家都對你有很高的期待因為我們也覺得你來做交通部主政之後真的很多東西有提升我們也期待這部分保障學童安全這一塊再麻煩謝謝趙偉 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1082,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（12時29分）主席，麻煩請陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長午安。今天是5月8日，三個禮拜前我有在這邊質詢交通部，對於慢車的管理政策，包含電輔、電動滑板車在內個人的行動器具，規範的執行跟推動情形，請交通部兩個禮拜內提出書面報告回復我。現在已經幾個禮拜了？當時事實上有承諾，但是到現在還沒有收到報告，不知道部長能不能掌握現在的進度是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，如果這個部分還沒給您回應的話，那是我們不對，跟您抱歉，我回去趕快去追，看什麼時候可以趕快給委員回應，不好意思。"],["林委員月琴：過去我針對質詢，收到稿子有時候是叫我讀法條，現在連稿子都不給我了，不知道為什麼會這樣？麻煩交通部要信守承諾。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員月琴：今天我們來談人本交通跟交通安全，過去三十年我非常關心這個課題，首先我要針對我們的宣傳經費，這部分的確這次被刪掉1,200萬，但還是有經費預算。不過宣傳的管道方式我是有意見的，比如過去我們常看到，很多時候廠商根本不懂交通安全，卻要來承辦這樣的業務，坦白講有時候活動內容事實上是跟安全脫鉤的。另外，宣傳的管道也非常重要，可是行人密集活動的場域裡卻很少看到，像大眾運輸場站就很少看到談人本交通這些相關的觀念，我覺得有點可惜。","我們來看數據，前幾天媒體也有報導，我想部長應該有看到。"],["陳部長世凱：是，有看到。"],["林委員月琴：人本交通政策在民間的知曉度非常低，高達八成的民眾不知道什麼叫做人本交通，根本不知道政策內容是什麼，我想這也是一個警訊。部長，我知道交通部非常努力，也很願意做公眾教育跟宣傳，能不能針對這個部分回過頭去看看，你委託的廠商到底懂不懂交通安全？內容會不會事實是反向的，反而對於安全沒有幫助？還有管道跟方式是不是也應該去思考一下，找人多密集的地方來做？部長可不可以說明一下？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，宣導面確實委員一直希望我們能夠加強，也確實應該加強。兩個部分，一個部分是執行的層面，到底效果好不好、內容好不好看、投放的點對不對？這個部分我們要檢討，這個沒有問題。包含您提醒的委託單位，它對於內容到底了不了解，這部分我們會檢討。另一方面，其實因為交通宣導的面向可以說非常多，對客運業者、駕駛等方方面面都非常多，我們也希望預算能夠增加一些，不過很可惜我們的預算沒有辦法增加……"],["林委員月琴：我知道，被刪了。"],["陳部長世凱：被刪以外也被凍，每次只要提到我們宣傳預算要增加，大家意見就很多，這個部分我們在有限的預算下儘量把它做好。委員剛剛提醒的我們會關注，該檢討的部分我們會檢討修正。"],["林委員月琴：尤其你現在講人本交通，可是大家都不知道的話，要在民間去推就有點困難。","接下來我們來談另一個部分，我想今天報紙也都刊載了，大家都很支持行人專用時相，支持度有84.7%，還有行人早開時相是89.6%，相信這也是你為什麼要去推動的原因。我想你的報告已經寫很多，媒體也報導很多，可是我回頭去看14期的院頒方案，確實交通部有規劃要普設行人號誌燈，打算因時、因地制宜去調整時制開啟的方式，我認為這是很好的一步，我也相當支持，畢竟有號誌，用路人才能夠依循，才能夠兼顧效率跟安全。不過我很好奇的是，行人號誌燈的普及率如何？部長有沒有掌握數據？"],["陳部長世凱：其實我們現在有新的道路交通安全整體綱要，所有地方政府其實都有朝這個方向在做，至於他們的數據到底有沒有辦法掌握，這個……"],["林委員月琴：沒關係，部長，我也不是要去考你、為難你，因為時間緊迫我來不及要，我手邊的就是14期院頒方案計畫規劃時的統計，當時的號誌設置比例，真的只能說慘兮兮，只有四成，除了雙北，僅基隆跟新竹有超過五成，六都只有雙北有五成以上，六都以外的話只有基隆和新竹有超過五成，其他的狀況都非常慘。那我就要問了，剛才你說要早開、專用，沒有號誌燈要怎麼去推動這些呢？這些都是要搭配號誌燈的，所以我不知道這部分有沒有考慮進去？因為你的時相和專用，都要考慮號誌燈。"],["陳部長世凱：委員，我們會協助地方政府增加這些號誌，不只是交通部，內政部國土署也在幫忙，我們一起合作協助地方政府。因為這些設置大部分是地方政府的權責，我們會協助他們，經費上需要補助我們也都會幫忙。"],["林委員月琴：否則你說要給做得比較好的獎金，問題是他沒有號誌燈，他就沒辦法去做專用跟早開時相，這個我覺得也要提醒。","再來，不知道部長有沒有印象，我上次問你會站在哪邊，你很乾脆的回答，如果你開車的話會在A。事實上交通部常常在規範法令的時候，對於現實層面好像都沒有考量到真實的狀況，而且我覺得有點獨步全球。為什麼？因為今天講人本交通政策，那個「人本」並不是只有講到行人，而是所有的用路人，當時修法的時候我就有提醒，結果你們還是按照這樣修。新條文的定義是說，接下來黃網線統統要淨空，可是相對其他國家，他們可以在黃網線等待車輛，才知道你要過。下一個畫面就是臺灣的狀況，四邊如果沒有到黃網線，誰知道誰要過？這時候沒有號誌燈，誰知道誰要過？反而讓大家就等著，變成這個梗圖的樣子，敵不動我不動，大家都不動，因為沒有號誌燈。","我們再來看，法規之間自己互相打架，這樣的狀況對學童的保護會更好嗎？道路交通安全規則第一百十一條第一項規定，交岔路口、公共汽車招呼站十公尺內不得臨停車輛，可是我們的處罰條例竟然是說可以設置停車處所。那我就會擔心，加上前陣子又有入口的交通事故，事實上對學童來講，傷害是比較大的。兩個法規互相牴觸的時候，放在一起看，不能臨停，可是又可以劃停車格，這不是互相牴觸嗎？部長，是不是可以針對這部分去盤點、改善，然後確定？否則的話根本沒有辦法幫助。事實上，兒少交通事故也是我一直很關心的議題，也期待部長能夠多著一些力。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員月琴：不好意思，召委，再給我一點時間，我們再看下一頁。我覺得交通部有掌握到充足人力，可是有時候在訂定法規，可不可以有自信一點？就像當初在談的時候，我們事實上是希望所謂的行人庇護島可以比照國外15到20公分，而且上方因為還要放一些東西，所以可以去考慮這樣做，結果最後你們還是按照國土署訂定的法規。我覺得如果要調整，就應該調整成實際上比較適合的，正確的事情應該要全力去推動，而不是因為國土署有這樣的規範，反而讓這邊不敢動。","最後我還是希望，在人本交通這塊能否重新檢討、宣導，也希望能夠儘速提升號誌燈的普及率，還有列管考核，以及交通部在徵詢意見的時候，可不可以多參考國外跟民間團體的意見？另外，檢討一下我剛剛講的入口周邊至少10公尺，到底要劃停車格還是要讓人臨停？部長，大家都對你有很高的期待，因為我們也覺得你來交通部主政之後，真的很多東西有提升，我們也期待保障學童安全這部分，再麻煩部長。謝謝召委、謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來努力，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，因為我們後面還有很多人，所以拜託大家稍微掌握一下時間，謝謝。","我們請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":162,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-10","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","張啓楷","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","林俊憲","陳雪生","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","黃捷","林國成","林月琴","張雅琳","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","涂權吉","蘇清泉","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部及教育部就「人本交通」及「交通安全」施行狀況進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計\n2案","agenda_id":"1144701_00003"}}},{"id":"161122","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161122","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1f6518cbb8e762f2abf088656e97d34035710b400f5dcf9246365cf59414950575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"12:57:48 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部長正次 午安好 部長這個禮拜天就是母親節所以大概這段時間我都常跑去關懷據點關心我們的長輩 家人家的長輩媽媽祝他們母親節快樂 但是也發現了一些這個過去關懷據點呈現了一些軟硬體的一些問題 我想保定照顧今天的老人就是照顧明天的自己 這就讓你認同嗎"},{"start":41.449,"end":63.202,"text":"我當然認同我不是到明天今天已經變老了部長我想過去從我們潘孟安秘書長他當縣長的時候他就一直在推動我們一村裡一據點的一個政策那到我們現在周春米縣長上任之後屏東縣443個村裡裡面我們目前已經佈建了415個據點佈建率高達94%我想這在全國各縣市裡面應該是冠軍的人"},{"start":70.346,"end":93.55,"text":"但是這個光靠縣政府的能量是有限的所以我想 柏林我們目前盤點出屏東縣目前有超過四成的據點是設在非公有的空間差不多有最快五成是設在我們的廟宇或是教會那其他就是在一般的民宅或是私人空間當然這樣的一個環境一定是有受到一些的限制包含修繕的問題 設備不足的問題柏林"},{"start":96.451,"end":123.75,"text":"那我們令人憂心的是我們也發現其中有三百四十處的據點有高達將近九成的空間對我們這些中北市團不友善包含這個無障礙設施啦公共廁所甚至這些廚房都沒辦法設在外面還在租駕我想這個都是一個隱憂老闆娘針對這樣一個狀況我們是不是有機會我們有機會過去因為衛福部可以補助我們一個活動中心一個修繕甚至興建這幫我們有機會再來倒三天嗎"},{"start":126.524,"end":133.928,"text":"我想如果有需要我們一定全力以赴去協助就是看每一個地方可能有不同的問題"},{"start":137.023,"end":150.827,"text":"以屏東方面不曉得,你是這邊有沒有非常感謝徐委員的關心,我跟委員報告,我在前陣子,我屏東也有經驗照做主任、做縣長,這個部分也非常用心,我知道委員你現在所說的最主要是據點的部分,整個空間,還有裡面修繕的部分"},{"start":160.809,"end":179.634,"text":"這個部分我們現在目前確實當然你如果可以當然用社區活動中心這最好啦但是沒有辦法大家都有活動中心嗎?對啦 阿...委員這個部分我們是不是我們回來其實我們有在研究說是不是可以用租金補貼啦阿但是這個部分部長這次"},{"start":181.813,"end":196.266,"text":"趕快提出方案好不好,不要說都研究而已啦,我們的市場不能暫停啦,你都要研究,要研究久久好,我這部分是不是比較緊,我...好,超過一半的據點是在我們的輸贏的場域,這都是善心人士提供的耶是,我了解,是,好好,好,另外齁,我先...我講,各位委員謝謝好,柏林,另外齁是,是"},{"start":202.321,"end":212.151,"text":"我再提出另外一個數據,在屏東有超過6成5的據點每個月共存的人數超過30個,甚至很多都60個,100個以我們現在的補助標準,一個團善,一星期吃一天,一人費用多少錢?35塊現在物價這35塊是要怎麼吃飯?"},{"start":231.357,"end":242.283,"text":"我們的限制不是人數,最主要是時段的問題議員你也知道,也有一個整體的一個...也有做到一個星期的10個時段而已是,不然你一個月補助一萬兩千塊沒分,製作都一萬兩千塊而已,那是怎麼處理?難道不能有一個分級的制度嗎?"},{"start":253.163,"end":261.988,"text":"對 我是建議因為畢竟每個村裡的總共沒有工有的地方比較少三四十的也有七八十的也有八幾個你不能用一萬兩千塊去涵蓋社會的服務據點這真的委員 這個分級的保溫我們是不是也一併好不好一併我們來列入"},{"start":279.358,"end":286.662,"text":"我想以我們在看那個狀況,有的地方那些半五天,如果不是很多三星人士在那裡企業倒三天,那真的支撐不下去啦,那今天應付我們中央市場要吃飯後就成困難了啦。是啦,我也有一個報告,當然這是很重要,我們也希望就是說政府來這邊負責,來有一個鼓勵嘛,"},{"start":303.032,"end":323.066,"text":"也引進民間的資源 大家到底來關心我們的方針起端嗎是啦 另外一個因為你們有一個點名制度 我不知道你們到底有怎麼樣去點名 點名大家都沒什麼跟我們這個東西我們是在各據點都有刷卡 就用健保卡就可以"},{"start":323.721,"end":337.79,"text":"這主要是希望大家比較簡單一點就是他刷卡就表示他今天我相信現在沒有人會要做這個做假這個東西啦 大家都沒搞 開沒搞啦那都自己自掏腰包的很多 那個志工媽媽都自己做八天做二天在服務的啦"},{"start":340.325,"end":356.774,"text":"所以我想應該是多支持我們這樣一個據點畢竟這個現在年輕人在打拚喔長輩在公開據點大家共餐做遊戲然後能夠增加健康這年輕人可以讓人家打拚做工作啦我想這是大家的共同的努力目標部長那我要特別再強調齁"},{"start":358.554,"end":379.523,"text":"114年我們長照的基金編列879億但是用在我們這個據點跟長照站的整合計畫只有35億整體比例這個預防性的支持比例不到4%這是不是有機會用逐年性的部分來做增加你不做預防的一個照顧這未來就是很大的問題我想預防性這個照顧是現在的趨勢現在的趨勢啊"},{"start":387.626,"end":395.532,"text":"提出一個階段性計劃好不好?好,好,提出結尾最後我就說,我們都會變老啦,未來我們都要去據點啦所以現在做得好,對我們未來都有好處啦"},{"start":402.778,"end":421.875,"text":"希望我相信我們在這個地方政府很努力的狀況之下 中央應該給予更大的一個支持的力道大家來收緊 我想包含空間 包含經費 包含支付上面給予我們更積極正面的一個回應 我想也是同一句話照顧今天的老人就是照顧現在我們的自己"},{"start":423.536,"end":428.902,"text":"這樣是不是一個月之內針對這個分期的部分給我們一個素面報告好的好謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1027,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（12時57分）謝謝主席，有請部長跟政次，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長、政次，午安。"],["邱部長泰源：午安。"],["呂次長建德：午安。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，這個禮拜天就是母親節，這段時間我都常跑去關懷據點關心我們的長輩，跟我們的長輩、媽媽，祝他們母親節快樂，但是也發現了過去這個關懷據點呈現了軟硬體的一些問題。部長，照顧今天的老人，就是照顧明天的自己，這句話你認同嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我當然認同。"],["徐委員富癸：認同吧？"],["邱部長泰源：我不是到明天，今天已經變老人了。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，過去從潘孟安秘書長當縣長的時候，他就一直在推動一村里一據點的政策，到現在周春米縣長上任之後，屏東縣443個村里裡面，我們目前已經布建了415個據點，布建率高達94%，我想這在全國各縣市裡面應該是冠軍啦！但是光靠縣政府的能量是有限的，部長，我們目前盤點出屏東縣有超過四成的據點是設在非公有的空間，差不多將近五成是設在廟或是教會，其他就是在一般的民宅或是私人空間，當然這樣的環境一定會受到一些限制，包含修繕的問題、設備不足的問題。部長，令人憂心的是，我們也發現其中有340處的據點、有高達將近九成的空間對我們這些長輩不友善，包含無障礙設施、公共廁所，甚至有些連廚房都沒辦法設置，要在外面煮飯，我想這些都是隱憂。部長，針對這樣的狀況，我們是不是有機會……過去因為衛福部可以補助活動中心的修繕，甚至興建，這部分有機會再來幫忙嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想如果有需要，我們一定全力以赴去協助，每一個地方可能有不同的問題，屏東方面請呂次長補充說明。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝徐委員的關心，屏東我也常去，周春米縣長對這個部分也非常用心。我知道委員現在所說的主要是據點的部分，整個場域空間還有裡面的修繕。當然有社區活動中心是最好……"],["徐委員富癸：但是沒辦法大家都有活動中心。"],["呂次長建德：委員，其實我們有在研究是不是可以用租金補貼，但是這個部分……"],["徐委員富癸：部長跟政次趕快提出方案好不好？不要只是研究而已，我們的長輩不能等，說要研究是要研究多久？"],["呂次長建德：是，我瞭解，這部分我們會儘快。"],["徐委員富癸：超過一半的據點是在私人場域，這都是善心人士提供的。"],["呂次長建德：我瞭解，感謝委員。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，我再提出另一個數據，在屏東有超過六成五的據點，每個月共餐的人數超過三十個，甚至很多都是六十個、一百個。依我們現在的補助標準，一個禮拜吃一天團膳，一個人費用多少錢部長知道嗎？35元。"],["呂次長建德：我們補助35元。"],["徐委員富癸：現在的物價35元是要怎麼吃飯？"],["呂次長建德：我們的限制不是人數，最主要是時段的問題，委員也知道，有一個禮拜兩個時段，也有做到一個禮拜四個時段的。"],["徐委員富癸：是，但目前你一個月不分多、少，都是補助1萬2,000元而已，這樣要怎麼處理？難道不能有一個分級的制度嗎？"],["呂次長建德：這樣好了，委員剛才說的部分……"],["徐委員富癸：我是建議，因為畢竟每個村、里的狀況不同，有的地方人比較少，有三十、四十個，有七十、八十個，也有一百多個，你不能用1萬2,000元去涵蓋所有的服務據點。"],["呂次長建德：委員，分級的部分我們是不是也一併列入？"],["徐委員富癸：甚至以我們在看實際的狀況，有的地方要辦五天，如果不是很多善心人士和企業來幫忙，真的支撐不下去，光要張羅我們長輩吃飯的部分就很困難。"],["呂次長建德：當然這很重要，我們也希望政府負責鼓勵，也引進民間的資源，大家一起來關心我們的鄉親長輩。"],["徐委員富癸：另外你們有一個點名制度，我不知道你們怎麼點名？點名大家都不敢來，有這件事嗎？"],["呂次長建德：點名？"],["張副署長美美：我們在據點都有刷卡，用健保卡就可以，主要是希望大家比較簡單一點，刷卡就表示他今天有來參加活動。"],["徐委員富癸：我相信現在沒有人會做假，大家的經費都不夠，自掏腰包的人很多，志工媽媽都自己做白工、做義工在服務的。所以我想應該是多支持我們這樣一個據點，畢竟現在年輕人在外努力，長輩在關懷據點，大家共餐、做遊戲，然後能夠增加健康，這樣年輕人才可以認真努力工作，我想這是大家共同的努力目標。部長，我要特別再強調，114年我們長照基金編列879億元，但是用在我們這個據點跟長照站的整合計畫只有35億元，整體預防性的支持比率不到4%，是不是有機會用逐年的方式來增加？不然你沒做預防性照顧，未來就是很大的問題。"],["邱部長泰源：我想預防性照顧是現在的趨勢。"],["徐委員富癸：是，所以經費就要增加啊！"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["徐委員富癸：提出一個階段性計畫好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["徐委員富癸：最後，我們都會變老，未來我們也是需要這些據點，所以現在做好，對我們未來也都有好處。我相信在地方政府很努力的狀況之下，中央應該給予更大的支持力道，包含空間、經費、實務上面，給予我們更積極正面的回應。我還是那句話，照顧今天的老人就是照顧明天的自己。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["徐委員富癸：是不是一個月之內，針對分級的部分給我們一個書面報告，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員，可能可以用人數啦！看要用45人或30人，可以研究。"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["主席：接續我們請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳瑩","廖偉翔","陳培瑜","李坤城","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","劉書彬","劉建國","黃國昌","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲"],"page_start":163,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「長照2.0執行情形檢討及3.0未來規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長就「澳洲進口豬腳驗出含萊克多巴胺，如何加強肉品食安查驗，讓民眾\n放心」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00004"}}},{"id":"161121","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161121","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1ab447346f92a1bc8e0059966c803d0e95710b400f5dcf924235d1795ffdf2ae75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:53:24 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是說這30塊不是第一次所以委員就是說 現在媒體也講到像這個台積電它就虧了 它就損失了780億到800億"},{"start":174.115,"end":181.678,"text":"所以我們都是從他現在這樣下來如果說我們是從以前他是從30塊貶值到33塊的時候那個時候報紙都沒有再分析說他這個是賺了多少錢"},{"start":194.042,"end":218.745,"text":"沒有所以呢也就是說企業的一個經營啊他不是在短期的不是就是企業的經營不是在短期他除了他盈利之外他同時也必須要避險所以說總裁講的沒有錯就是說企業他除了盈利之外他必須要也想著說怎麼樣去避險因為匯率的這一個市場他是他是會有波動的那本身就應該要做好一些準備是"},{"start":219.025,"end":245.63,"text":"但是工業部門那不同的這個次產業它會受到影響的程度也不同那不像是這個螺絲的擴建產業它的平均的這個毛利率是大概15%那如果考量到美國已經實施基礎關稅下那這一波的這個新台幣的急升它可能會造成它的利潤是轉為零甚至是負數那另外一方面科技產業雖然有受到影響就是我們剛才講的利潤"},{"start":247.99,"end":263.14,"text":"他的空間比較大而且他有比較強的避險能力為什麼因為就如同剛剛講的他們同時他們的整個集團內部一定會有在針對匯損或者匯率的變化來去要做調控的那這樣子講起來的話我就必須要特別強調"},{"start":264.221,"end":280.672,"text":"中小企業在匯率避險上面就面臨到這個專業不足還有成本過高的這種困境所以我想請教一下這未來有沒有辦法考慮央行是不是有跟銀行業者合作來提供更友善成本更低的避險方案"},{"start":282.594,"end":297.605,"text":"至於就是說這個委員這個諮詢是很對的就是說銀行是不是也可以提供中小企業他避險的時候成本會能夠降低一點我想這個是很好的一個建議這個我們會來跟他們來討論討論好不好"},{"start":301.528,"end":321.469,"text":"謝謝總裁那拜託再給我30秒我再把農業的部分把它做一個結束那總裁再來就是農業的部分農業部分可能會有一些分化效應為什麼一方面我們特定種類的水果像是蘭花的生產者它會因為國際市場的競爭力因為它的這個匯率的關係它可能會下降而受創但是另一方面畜牧業"},{"start":322.41,"end":347.922,"text":"還有這個水產的養殖業它是進口的飼料所以像是玉米黃豆成本降低它可能會受益所以我是說央行應該要去評估這一段匯率的變動對所有農產品國內價格的出口競爭力的進影響好不好提供這樣的相關的這些資訊給我們這樣子未來我們做整體的產業我們就是說委員做這樣的一個建議我們可以start一下啦好 謝謝總裁我們可以start一下"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1744,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（12時53分）您好，我請中央銀行總裁。"],["主席：楊總裁，請。"],["楊總裁金龍：陳委員早。"],["陳委員冠廷：楊總裁好。首先我想針對最近新臺幣大幅升值的情況向總裁請教其影響層面。近期匯率市場已經從三月底的33塊兌一美元，到現在升值到29.6塊。一度啦！一度到29.6塊，短期內的升值幅度已經接近10%，所以有一些媒體用暴力升值講對我們出口產業的衝擊。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：從數據上來看，對半導體產業來講，新臺幣每升值1%，台積電的營業利益率就會下降大概0.4個百分點。如果以五月初的匯率計算的話，對第二季生產可能造成的匯兌損失大概是700到864億左右。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：傳統的製造產業當然更是首當其衝，所以臺灣機械工業同業公會警告，如果再繼續升值的話，可能會引發產業的倒閉潮。匯率對於不同產業，如高科技業、傳統產業等等會有不同影響，那我想請教總裁，央行有沒有對不同產業受到的具體影響進行全面評估？"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上，誠如我剛剛說的，30塊也不是現在才第一次碰到啦！"],["陳委員冠廷：對，不是第一次碰到。"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，以前就有好幾次。我跟委員報告，事實上，108年下半年都在三十塊左右，據我的資料，108年12月31日是30.106，在111年12月31日年底的匯率是30.708。還有好幾次，也就是說三十塊這個價位不是第一次，事實上以前就有好幾次碰到三十塊了，所以不必要……我的意思不是不必要，而是三十塊不是第一次！委員說、媒體也講，像台積電就虧了、損失了780億到800億，都是因為匯率這樣下來造成。但如果是以前從30塊貶值到33塊的時候呢？那個時候報紙都沒有分析他們賺了多少錢，沒有！也就是說，企業的經營不是短期的！"],["陳委員冠廷：企業的經營不在於短期。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，因為是長期的。"],["陳委員冠廷：除了營利之外，同時也必須注重避險。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，所以……"],["陳委員冠廷：總裁講得沒有錯，企業除了營利之外，必須也想著怎麼避險，因為匯率這個市場是會有波動的，企業本身就應該做好準備。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：但是在工業部門，不同的次產業會受影響的程度也不同喔！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯，委員講的都沒有錯。"],["陳委員冠廷：像螺絲扣件產業的平均毛利率大概是15%，如果考量美國已經實施基礎關稅，這一波新臺幣急升就可能造成其利潤轉為零、甚至是負數。","另一方面，科技產業雖然受到影響，但就如同我們剛才講的，它的利潤空間比較大，而且有比較強的避險能力。為什麼呢？如同剛剛講的，他們整個集團內部一定同時需要針對匯損或匯率變化作調控的。這樣講起來，我就必須特別強調，中小企業在匯率避險上面臨專業不足還有成本過高這種困境。所以我想請教一下，央行未來有沒有辦法考慮是否會跟銀行業者合作，提供更友善、成本更低的避險方案？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員這個質詢是很對的，也就是銀行是不是也可以提供中小企業協助，讓它在避險時成本能夠降低一點，我想這是很好的建議啦！我們會跟他們討論討論，好不好？"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝總裁。召委，拜託再給我30秒，我就農業部分做個結束。總裁，再來就是農業部分。農業部分可能會有一些分化效應，為什麼？一方面，特定種類水果，像是蘭花生產者，其國際市場競爭力可能會因為匯率的關係下降、受創。但是另一方面，畜牧業還有水產養殖業使用進口飼料，所以像玉米、黃豆成本降低，業者可能受益。我是說央行應該評估這一段匯率變動對所有國內農產品出口價格競爭力的淨影響，好不好？並提供相關資訊給我們，這樣我們可以了解未來整體產業的狀況。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，委員做這樣的建議，我們可以study一下啦！好不好？"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝總裁。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員的質詢。","下一位請翁曉玲、翁曉玲，翁曉玲委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","張啓楷、張啓楷，張啓楷委員不在。","黃國昌、黃國昌，黃國昌委員不在。","報告委員會，今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢。","現在處理臨時提案，總共1案，請議事人員宣讀，也請央行長官看一下，這是針對你們的提案。","案由：鑑於中央銀行對其從業人員提供員工福利「優惠存款利率」，然身為央行所屬的中央印製廠員工卻未享有同等福利，恐有差別待遇之嫌。考量印製廠員工向來積極配合央行指示，在工作崗位上鞠躬盡瘁，以及過往被視為鐵飯碗的國營事業，今日亦面臨鐵飯碗生鏽、人才流失的難題，爰要求中央銀行應該本於「行廠一家」，照顧員工的經營理念，提供印製廠員工相同的員工福利「優惠存款利率」，以期留住人才，吸引人才。","提案人：羅明才　　賴士葆　　林德福"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","王世堅","林思銘","涂權吉","王鴻薇","謝龍介","陳玉珍","陳冠廷","林楚茵","翁曉玲"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、國家發展委員會\n劉主任委員鏡清、勞動部洪部長申翰、銓敘部施部長能傑就「我國如果要設立國家主權基金，中\n央銀行與政府相關基金（如四大基金等）所扮演的角色為何？」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00006"}}},{"id":"161120","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161120","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c142e7c564135afbebbf088656e97d3403567847e18f9cb58794c2a44ecd674d185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:48:25 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謝謝主席 那我先請社家署 謝謝先請部長不好意思 不好意思 不好意思 請問就好 來好 部長我想要跟你討論一下但我相信這個議題應該在衛福部討論過 也跟縣市政府討論過就是我現在任養的服務選區是連江縣跟金門縣"},{"start":24.202,"end":52.867,"text":"那現在連江縣就是大家認識的馬祖是全台灣唯一沒有部立醫院的縣市那我聽地方人士跟我們討論過說當年也曾經有討論過可是會不會是縣市政府他們沒有這個意願那導致我們現在很多事情都要後送那後送的話可能有很多居民會擔心到會不會是我跟政治人物比較熟我比較容易被後送什麼的好像這個明明是照顧人民的醫療權益卻變成某一種政治工作的福利"},{"start":53.827,"end":61.975,"text":"我覺得我們衛福部有需要對這件事情公開說明一下部長你怎麼看過去跟連江縣政府的溝通跟未來我們可以怎麼跟鄉親交代"},{"start":63.68,"end":85.561,"text":"非常謝謝委員關心我們連江縣的醫療,連江縣的醫療其實是我們部裡面投注很多資源的一個地方,包括最近我們跟他們通貨買CT,還有加上AI,所以其實可以很清楚的來看出病人的一個問題。"},{"start":86.738,"end":115.285,"text":"那至於說深口部醫院裡面他們我們當然過去幾年都有互動但是後來的後來是連江縣表示就是表示說沒有這種意願這樣子是因為錢的關係嗎部長這個醫療資源的分配的問題你覺得是他們是因為錢的關係嗎就這個什麼因為什麼關係我大概也不敢去臆測但是從過去到現在我們"},{"start":116.477,"end":134.162,"text":"我整個追溯過程原來是有這種意願但是真的討論以後他們還是覺得保持這樣子是好的但是基本上醫護會是絕對就是說有需要我們就待會提供"},{"start":135.717,"end":161.629,"text":"媽祖也是在做 其實很多醫院 臺北的很多醫院我知道有在做醫療協助 都在做很多的協助如果有任何的需要 會請委員繼續提出來好 沒問題 加強 但現在來講因為那邊的醫師都是我好朋友因為都是在 也許很多是你的學生因為都在臺灣來受訓 所以我們都是瞭解所以可以說是溝通無礙 但是我們"},{"start":162.589,"end":184.061,"text":"委員要提高他的整個品質這個部分我們一定一起來努力好 而且我其實也很擔心後續財化法很多錢回到地方去但是地方上有沒有好的監督機制好的施政品質來照顧人民的醫療需求所以我這個部分會持續再跟各位討論好 謝謝部長 那部長請回那社家署請留步 謝謝"},{"start":185.831,"end":204.847,"text":"好我想快速跟社交署讨论一下关于个人助理协助在自立生活支持的部分因为我们从特教一路走来发现很多身心障碍的朋友他们很希望透过个人助理协助可以自立生活其实也可以减少身边家人跟社会的负担而且其实俊翰律师之前也有提到过"},{"start":205.667,"end":230.603,"text":"目前我们发现几个问题一个是申请的时数跟核定的时数落差很大可能他是我们现在手上好几个案例例如说一个案例他是说他申请了120几个小时但是经过地方政府的审议之后呢他最后只核定了三分之一那我们当然知道资源有限人力有限的情况下我们回过头来看这些个案的困境这个审议的结果他们收到之后基本上在现行的法规里面他们没有"},{"start":231.383,"end":255.08,"text":"申訴的機制他們沒有回復這個結果的機制跟管道導致於他們只能默默的接受雖然非常非常的不足所以我剛剛說我不知道是人力的問題還是資源的問題而且假設假設真的有一天他們可以申請救濟那在救濟期間的時數又是如何認定那你可能覺得我提到這個救濟很莫名其妙我等一下會來說另外一個事情還有就是目前我們申請的辦法是這樣"},{"start":258.462,"end":279.654,"text":"假設他的戶籍地在台中啊台南啊高雄但是他的工作地可能在台北或是他剛剛講的我說的那些地方以外地方他在台北工作那但是因為他的戶籍在其他地方所以他就必須送回戶籍地的所在縣市政府去申請那我們現在不確定喔這個事情有沒有辦法調整因為如果他的工作地在雙北"},{"start":280.835,"end":305.601,"text":"現在很多困境是這樣但是他為什麼一定得送回去沒有別的方法嗎我們覺得我剛剛講的這些問題其實都對生性障礙的朋友非常不友善但是我們明明希望透過私立生活的協助真的可以讓他們感覺到自己是有能力的而且自己是可以貢獻自己的專業在這個社會上所以我們來問一下你們目前的私立生活需求評估有沒有相關的法源依據我們來看一下下一張"},{"start":306.661,"end":329.322,"text":"我們去找了相關的法源依據在身障權法50跟51條你們都只有說要提供自立生活支持服務可是相關的細則其實我們沒有看見在身障權法個人照顧服務辦法裡面呢第71條也有提到類似的事情可是到底整個委員會的組成啊審議的機制啦申訴的機制救濟的機制其實也都講得不清不楚我們覺得很可惜"},{"start":330.763,"end":347.174,"text":"第二個現行自立生活需求評估也欠缺讓障礙者個人陳述意見的機制怎麼說呢我們回到我們在照顧特教孩子們在學校生活中的參與在特教法的相關法規裡面都有保障特教生他們可以參與相關的會議跟討論也就是說"},{"start":350.416,"end":374.306,"text":"孩子本人或者是法定代理人或是實際照顧者都可以參加相關的專業評估或是相關的會議那我們回到身心障礙者權利公約也就是CRPD裡面其實也提到自立生活跟個人助理協助尤為重要那如果尤為重要身為這個被服務的案主個人他為什麼不能在相關事件上表達他的意見跟他的困境跟他的需求呢我們也覺得很可惜"},{"start":374.986,"end":403.571,"text":"我們很多事情都提到公民參與但偏偏身障者這個個人生活自理的部分卻沒有相關的機制還有目前自立生活支持服務的申請是透過戶籍地那我剛剛說那外地工作者的需求又會是什麼那這麼多問題我可不可以快速知道還是說因為我今天時間有限我們沒有辦法立刻回應需要會後跟我們辦公室積極的開會討論呢還是我說的這些事情都不符合你們現在的認知"},{"start":404.98,"end":418.424,"text":"那個報告委員我想我先做一點簡單的說明那我們也很願意再跟大家做討論好那第一個是自立生活的這個法源依據其實我們是生存版50條對沒錯就是我列出來的可是我說剛剛實行的這些細則跟細節包含這些會議啊然後申訴的這些機制啊或者是委員會召開組成的辦法啦相關專家學者是如何訂定啊那為什麼他們看了書面報告就可以決定這個時數這樣"},{"start":433.769,"end":455.098,"text":"呃應該這樣說就是說我們其實法律上面是各有不有一些規定了譬如說五十條是他應需求評估那在生存法第七條其實也有訂到說需求評估其實要的內容而且是要團隊那當然我們是沒有要求說各地方的團隊要怎麼建立這是呃也也希望地方政府是可以因地制宜啊那呃"},{"start":456.118,"end":484.94,"text":"我們其實在這個自立生活因為團體也跟我們反映過其實希望是生長者可以參與所以我記得我們在討論自立生活的這個需求評估必須經過團隊的這個決策機制的時候有要求地方政府其實應該邀請生長者一起來參與這個討論那我想我們可以再瞭解地方政府他落實的一個情況那另外一個部分剛剛提到的如果他的戶籍地跟工作地不同的部分確實是我們現在是他必須要跟戶籍地申請因為"},{"start":485.66,"end":492.61,"text":"主要是戶籍地我們希望有機會改善因為戶籍地它是要付費我們會後續討論前幾天有個記者會就是有我們共同跟一群12個被性侵的小孩"},{"start":500.782,"end":516.202,"text":"的家長共同召開那發生了什麼事情就是一個才藝班的老師在他的教室裡面裝監視器然後把孩子帶到那些角落進行性侵跟性殺後來在進行報案的過程當中我們發現其實在你們衛福部相關的會議裡面也提到這個案子是一個照妖鏡看出整個系統的問題"},{"start":517.003,"end":543.055,"text":"我現在就問一個一站式協助服務的事情我們昨天去問了相關司法法治委員會他們告訴我們確實現在的狀況是有一些縣市政府他們有找一些醫院做所謂一站式服務可是假設我報案的地方是A可是提供一站式服務的醫院在轄區B他就沒有辦法提供服務那我知道你們沒有辦法回答可是我要講這個機制有待精進是不是可以給我們一個快速的承諾我們辦公室會跟你們積極的召開相關會議"},{"start":545.856,"end":553.93,"text":"好 這個部分應該是我們保護室在處理我會帶回去跟他們好 沒關係 你不用帶回去因為我會找你討論 好不好OK 好好 當然也是希望你帶回去啦好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝 謝謝陳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":989,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時48分）謝謝主席，我先請部長，1分鐘就好。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，我想要和你討論一下，我相信這個議題應該在衛福部討論過，也跟縣市政府討論過，因為我現在認養的服務選區是連江縣和金門縣，連江縣就是大家認識的馬祖，它是全臺灣唯一沒有部立醫院的縣市。我聽地方人士跟我們討論，他們說當年曾經有討論過，可是會不會是縣市政府沒有這個意願，導致於現在很多事情都要後送？那後送的話，可能有很多居民會擔心是不是跟政治人物比較熟會比較容易被後送什麼的，這個明明是在照顧人民的醫療權益，卻變成某一種政治工作的福利，我覺得衛福部有需要對這件事情公開說明一下，部長，你怎麼看過去與連江縣政府的溝通，以及未來我們可以怎麼跟鄉親交代？"],["邱部長泰源：是的，非常謝謝委員關心馬祖連江縣的醫療，連江縣的醫療其實是我們部裡面投注很多資源的一個地方，包括最近我們通過買CT，還有加上AI，所以可以很清楚地看出病人的問題。至於升格部立醫院，當然過去幾年我們都有互動，後來是連江縣表示沒有這種意願。"],["陳委員培瑜：是因為錢的關係嗎？部長，這個醫療資源分配的問題，你覺得他們是因為錢的關係嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：因為什麼關係我大概也不敢去臆測，但是從過去到現在，追溯這整個過程，原來是有這種意願，但是真正討論以後，他們還是覺得保持這樣子是好的，但是基本上醫福會是絕對……"],["陳委員培瑜：醫福會，是。"],["邱部長泰源：就是說有需要我們大概會提供，其實臺北的很多醫院都有在馬祖那邊做很多協助。"],["陳委員培瑜：我知道，有在做醫療協助嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：如果有任何的需要，可以請委員繼續提出來，我們再來加強。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒問題。"],["邱部長泰源：現在來講，因為那邊的醫師都是我的好朋友……"],["陳委員培瑜：好朋友，也許很多是你的學生。"],["邱部長泰源：因為都是到臺灣來受訓，所以我們都瞭解，可以說是溝通無礙啦！但是委員要提高它整個品質，這個部分我們一定一起來努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，而且我其實也很擔心，後續財劃法很多錢回到地方去，但是地方上有沒有好的監督機制、好的施政品質來照顧人民的醫療需求，這個部分我會持續再跟衛福部討論。"],["邱部長泰源：好，是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長，部長請回。社家署請留步。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：我想快速跟社家署討論一下，關於個人助理協助在自立生活支持的部分，因為我們從特教一路走來，發現很多身心障礙的朋友很希望透過個人助理協助可以自立生活，也可以減少身邊家人和社會的負擔，其實俊翰律師之前也有提到過。目前我們發現幾個問題，一個是申請的時數跟核定的時數落差很大，我們現在手上有好幾個案例，例如說有一個案例他是申請了一百二十幾個小時，但是經過地方政府的審議之後，最後只核定了三分之一。","我們當然知道資源有限、人力有限的情況下，我們回過頭來看這些個案的困境，這個審議的結果他們收到之後，基本上在現行的法規裡面他們沒有申訴的機制，他們沒有回復這個結果的機制和管道，導致於他們只能默默地接受，雖然非常非常的不足，所以我剛剛說我不知道是人力的問題還是資源的問題，而且假設真的有一天他們可以申請救濟，在救濟期間的時數又是如何認定？你可能覺得我提到救濟很莫名其妙，我等一下會來說另外一件事情。","還有就是目前我們申請的辦法是這樣，假設他的戶籍地在臺中、臺南、高雄，但是他的工作地可能在臺北，或是我剛剛說的那些地方以外的地方，他在臺北工作，但是因為他的戶籍在其他地方，所以他就必須送回戶籍地的所在縣市政府去申請。我們現在不確定這件事情有沒有辦法調整，因為如果他的工作地在雙北，現在很多困境是這樣，但是他為什麼一定得送回去？沒有別的方法嗎？我覺得剛剛講的這些問題其實都對身心障礙的朋友非常不友善，但是我們明明希望透過自立生活的協助真的可以讓他們感覺到自己是有能力的，而且可以貢獻自己的專業在這個社會上，所以我們來問一下，你們目前的自立生活需求評估有沒有相關的法源依據？","我們來看一下，我們去找了相關的法源依據，在身障權法第五十條及第五十一條，你們都只有說要提供自立生活支持服務，可是相關的細則其實我們沒有看見。在身障者個人照顧服務辦法第七十一條也有提到類似的事情，可是整個委員會的組成、審議的機制、申訴的機制、救濟的機制，其實也都講得不清不楚，我們覺得很可惜。","第二個，現行自立生活需求評估也欠缺讓障礙者個人陳述意見的機制，怎麼說呢？我們回到我們在照顧特教孩子們在學校生活中的參與，在特教法的相關法規裡面都有保障特教生可以參與相關的會議跟討論，也就是說，孩子本人或者是法定代理人或是實際照顧者都可以參加相關的專業評估或相關的會議。我們回到身心障礙者權利公約，也就是CRPD裡面其實也提到自立生活跟個人助理協助尤為重要，那如果尤為重要，身為這個被服務的案主個人，他為什麼不能在相關事件上表達他的意見、困境跟需求呢？我們也覺得很可惜。我們很多事情都提到公民參與，但偏偏身障者個人生活自理的部分卻沒有相關的機制，還有目前自立生活支持服務的申請是透過戶籍地，那我剛剛說外地工作者的需求又會是什麼？這麼多問題我可不可以快速知道？因為我今天時間有限，還是你們沒有辦法立刻回應，需要會後跟我們辦公室積極地開會討論呢？"],["張副署長美美：委員……"],["陳委員培瑜：還是我說的這些事情都不符合你們現在的認知？"],["張副署長美美：報告委員，我先做一點簡單的說明，我們也很願意再跟大家做討論。第一個，自立生活的法源依據其實是身權法第五十條……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，沒錯，就是我列出來的，可是我剛剛說實行的這些細則跟細節，包含這些會議、申訴的這些機制或者是委員會召開組成的辦法，相關專家、學者是如何訂定，為什麼他們看了書面報告就可以決定這個時數？"],["張副署長美美：應該這樣說，其實法令上面是各有一些規定，譬如說第五十條是應依需求評估，在身權法第七條其實也有訂需求評估的內容，而且是要團隊，當然我們是沒有要求各地方的團隊要怎麼建立，也希望地方政府可以因地制宜。我們其實在自立生活……因為團體也跟我們反映過，希望身障者可以參與，所以我記得我們在討論自立生活的需求評估必須經過團隊的決策機制的時候，有要求地方政府其實應該邀請身障者一起來參與討論，我想我們可以再了解地方政府落實的情況。","另外一個部分，剛剛提到的，如果他的戶籍地跟工作地不同，確實現在是他必須要跟戶籍地申請，因為主要是戶籍地……"],["陳委員培瑜：我們希望有機會改善，好不好？"],["張副署長美美：因為戶籍地是要付費啦！所以我想這個我們可以再討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們會後續討論。主席，再1分鐘就好。前幾天有個記者會，就是我們跟12個被性侵的小孩的家長共同召開，那發生了什麼事情呢？就是一個才藝班的老師在他的教室裡面裝監視器，然後把孩子帶到那些角落進行性侵跟性騷，後來在進行報案的過程當中，我們發現其實在衛福部相關的會議裡面也提到這個案子是一個照妖鏡，看出整個系統的問題，我現在就問一站式協助服務的事情，我們昨天去問了司法及法制委員會相關問題，他們告訴我們，確實現在的狀況是有一些縣市政府有找一些醫院做所謂一站式服務，可是假設他報案的地方是A，但提供一站式服務的醫院在轄區B，它就沒有辦法提供服務，我知道你們沒有辦法回答，可是我要講這個機制有待精進，是不是可以給我們一個快速的承諾？我們辦公室會跟你們積極召開相關會議。"],["張副署長美美：好，這個部分應該是我們保護司在處理，我會帶回去跟他們討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒關係，你不用帶回去，因為我會找你討論，好不好？"],["張副署長美美：OK，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：當然也是希望你帶回去啦！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","接續我們請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳瑩","廖偉翔","陳培瑜","李坤城","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","劉書彬","劉建國","黃國昌","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲"],"page_start":163,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「長照2.0執行情形檢討及3.0未來規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長就「澳洲進口豬腳驗出含萊克多巴胺，如何加強肉品食安查驗，讓民眾\n放心」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00004"}}},{"id":"161119","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161119","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c18306a2a8f1bd81a3e0059966c803d0e9567847e18f9cb5878fc881b9a350622d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:42:26 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請主席長主席長我看到這個在總質詢的時候這個我們院長有說啦115年的總運算是依照新的財化法編列沒錯吧你們說財化法要提釋憲對不對"},{"start":29.963,"end":51.848,"text":"有 已經提了嗎有 已經提出來了就對了是不是會照新的來編 政院的發言人李慧芝有說新版財化法裡面 地方的政府財源會大幅增加所以會研議優先減劣地方補助款對不對對不起 你戴口罩大聲一點 我聽不太見"},{"start":56.75,"end":63.141,"text":"優先檢列地方補助款優先檢列地方補助款是一般性補助款還是計畫性補助款"},{"start":64.985,"end":87.84,"text":"兩個都有兩個都會減劣就對了是不是但是我們新版的採訪法第30條第三項有規定啊你知道嗎我們有這個規定吧中央政府給予地方政府之一般性補助款向金額不得少於修正實行前一年預算編列數啊意思說一般性補助款你們是不能減的啊但是一般性補助款有很多種啊什麼意思"},{"start":90.699,"end":112.794,"text":"一般性補助款的項目非常的多對,我不管一般性補助款有幾種項目但採訪法新的我們通過這個採訪法有明文規定不得少於修正施行前一年的預算編列數所以你不要遵守我們會遵守所以一般性補助款你不能減你可以減計劃型補助我們可以減項目用其他的來彌補減什麼"},{"start":115.417,"end":142.136,"text":"項目不同的 因為它有很多不同的項目項目沒關係 但是金額 當然這說的是金額金額會維持金額會照這個 照這個心法 那好那現在因為在 現在時程來講現在在編概算了嘛正常是4月到5月吧 對吧我這個中央政府總預算的編成一個時間表現在是4月到5月那請問這個中央對我們地方各地方的統籌分配稅款的額度什麼時候會出來"},{"start":143.553,"end":157.841,"text":"什麼時候出來地方才好做他們一百一十五年地方的這個編列一些計畫什麼來做什麼時候會出來因為現在已經已經在邊蓋算了四月到五月在邊蓋算了這是財政部的業務請財政部來說明財政部市長什麼時候會出來市長"},{"start":163.632,"end":191.238,"text":"就對於這個各縣市的統籌分配款稅的那個額度什麼時候會出來因為第一五年你們在編了嘛地方也要開始那個嘛 準備對 因為現在有兩個問題啦因為現在就是說今年剛好就是因為出口旺盛所以呢 營業稅退稅特別多那另外呢 所留稅我們結算申報延後一個月所以目前啦 我們的裁員是不足的所以我們現在有找這個地方政府來開會"},{"start":192.378,"end":207.105,"text":"所以我們目前這個有關這個統籌分稅款這部分現在是目前是有一點打折啦但是等到這個結算申報結束以後有裁員之後沒關係那是什麼時候幾月份可以編出來"},{"start":209.13,"end":224.746,"text":"幾月 幾月 最慢是八月份啦八月喔 所以八月才可以算最慢 最慢 最慢半應該說這樣 八月以前你會給這個答案啦我相信應該會早一點啦好 八月以前會給這個地方 各個地方因為這個地方也要編他們的其他各方面要給地方一點時間"},{"start":228.788,"end":250.497,"text":"那請問主計總署你們有發行給各個縣市還有直轄政府說114年中央對地方政府一般性補助款5月到12月的分配數改為未分配數嘛對不對就是這個因為你們現在在財務法在做一些有一些總預算啦總預算也在做救濟嘛對不對是不是總預算也在做救濟嘛也在申請這個市縣是不是"},{"start":252.178,"end":274.198,"text":"以我們基本來講 本來一般性補助款5到12月本來分配數是10億多現在改成5億多其他改為未分配數那你說要等救濟結果而定是等釋憲 救濟結果是釋憲嗎對等釋憲 如果今年底都沒辦法釋憲呢沒有結果咧這筆錢是要不要分 要不要發出來"},{"start":274.957,"end":277.518,"text":"那到時候再看 要三減哪一項 因為現在要三減636還沒有確認"},{"start":298.991,"end":317.241,"text":"不是啊 你這樣子這個地方怎麼施政呢現在5月到12月要怎麼施政你都給一半 對不對那到底地方不就整個政務會停頓嗎整個都會影響啊所以你什麼時候 有一個時間吧如果到年底都沒有咧所以也是會給是不是 你也是會給"},{"start":319.685,"end":347.257,"text":"也不一定會給,也有可能變零就對啊有可能變零因為如果說到時候要刪減的話,那就會刪減所以有可能,所以他的本來是50%也可能會變成零嘛那你們如果有這樣方向打算也要早一點讓地方政府知道啊不然地方政府到底他現在5月到12月要怎麼施政嘛是,我們會盡量,盡量這個那早一點嘛,好那接著,謝謝主委長,接著我們請這個總裁辛苦了,總裁"},{"start":348.857,"end":350.498,"text":"所以我一開始我的聲明就是說因為我口才不好所以呢會有結痂的現象"},{"start":375.409,"end":380.691,"text":"所以也不是說因為我結結巴巴才會言不可忠而且又說我就是因為我不善於說謊才會這樣結結巴巴好像就是說我就是說謊"},{"start":390.515,"end":413.941,"text":"沒有啦 沒有說你說謊啦你直接叭叭嘛 就是你不想說謊 但是又不知道怎麼回答嘛有提問你也沒有辦法回答沒關係啦 不正義這個齁 來星哥 我要問你實質的問題齁這個 剛剛也很多人問過啦 也沒有所謂的澎懷蘭防線啦也沒有所謂楊金總防線 也沒有什麼利守30塊大關啦齁這些防線都沒有啦齁那但是 你也知道現在很多這個"},{"start":415.47,"end":423.237,"text":"商人出貨商很辛苦啊對你很嚴重的挑戰那這個台幣升值是不是台美的談判議題呢這個我們也問了我們也問了那這個這個卓榮泰院長有說未來不敢動我問他的時候他說"},{"start":430.864,"end":455.803,"text":"你看我們在中央是說沒有觸及這個議題啦卓院長是說我那天問他說沒有啦現在說未來不一定啦好那你也說你們沒有參加台美金剛工作小組對沒有你們沒有美國也沒有要求你們嘛對沒有那所以你可以承諾匯率不會是台美談判議題嗎不是我現在又要回過頭來要講就是說事實上我們跟美國財政部"},{"start":456.684,"end":463.305,"text":"因為我們固定是兩次但是我們大部分就是說它的匯率報告出來之前會有一次所以它一年是兩個匯率報告以前它都是在四月中以前一個是在十月中以前"},{"start":484.069,"end":486.351,"text":"所以我要跟委員報告就是說事實上我們一直在強調就是說我們跟美國財政部溝通良好我的意思是說什麼就是說我們在這個議題方面我們都互相的信任"},{"start":501.28,"end":503.162,"text":"第二點我們隨時有什麼問題要跟他請教的時候我們都隨時都可以熱線不斷沒有問題有熱線就對了中美是跟他們的總裁所以我們說溝通良好就是這個意思"},{"start":518.556,"end":547.049,"text":"但是那個 我們的總統也好 我們的院長也好都說這次談判是沒有談到匯率吧是沒有啊你也說沒有嘛 對那那個 南韓那個央行的那個總裁是說謊的嗎我就說 我就說這個前面你認識他嗎我認識他我認識他你認識他啊我認識他所以 所以 但他說美國有他沒有說什麼施壓啦他只有說是不一定是會這樣但是有談到這一題所以 所以"},{"start":547.489,"end":575.062,"text":"所以我應該比較相信你啦不過我跟委員報告啦就是說所以南韓這個央行總裁可能說的不是實話啊我不曉得這些只有一個人說的是實話嘛因為他有說台灣啊他說美國和日本、台灣、馬來西亞也有談到嘛他不知道所以要嘛就是耐心的這種說法要嘛就是南韓這個央行總裁說法因為他對我們台灣他不曉得啊"},{"start":576.763,"end":589.352,"text":"我現在 我也不曉得說他們滿欄有沒有跟他談 我也不曉得啊那他有提到啊所以我就覺得奇怪反正要嘛就戴總統說謊 要嘛就央行我覺得誰說謊 誰不說謊你沒有辦法判斷喔 我也沒有辦法判斷 沒關係喔不過我要強調的就是說 我要講的實話我講的是實話"},{"start":600.44,"end":611.588,"text":"你講的是實話你講的一定是實話不是要不結結巴巴的時候總裁我想請教你一題最後一題來上一次半年一次匯率報告上次是11月5號繼續被列為匯率超重國的觀察名單請問這一次你預測會繼續列還是會升級你說什麼這一次因為匯率報告美國財政部那個"},{"start":627.279,"end":636.325,"text":"如果說據他這三個三項標準的話呢我們還是觀察名單啦所以你覺得應該還是會再觀察名單啦是啦是啦好 謝謝總裁好 謝謝陳益智委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1571,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（12時42分）謝謝主席，我們讓央行總裁休息一下，請主計長。"],["主席：主計長，請。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：主計長，我看到院長在總質詢的時候說115年總預算是依照新財劃法編列的嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們說針對財劃法要提釋憲對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：已經提了嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["陳委員玉珍：啊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["陳委員玉珍：已經提出來了是不是？好，會照新的來編？但政院發言人李慧芝說，在新版財劃法裡面，地方政府的財源會大幅增加，所以會研議優先減列地方補助款，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：對不起，因為你戴口罩，大聲一點，否則我聽不太見。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係，你可以戴著啦！但大聲一點，所以會優先減列地方補助款喔！你們說優先減列地方補助款的時候，所說的是一般性補助款還是計畫型補助款？"],["陳主計長淑姿：兩個都有。"],["陳委員玉珍：兩個都會減列是不是？但是新版財劃法第三十條第三項有規定啊！你知道有這個規定吧！中央政府給予地方政府之一般性補助款項金額不得少於修正實行前一年預算編列數啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：意思是一般性補助款你們是不能減的啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是一般性補助款有很多種啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：啊？什麼意思？"],["陳主計長淑姿：一般性補助款的項目非常多。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，但我不管一般性補助款有幾種項目啦！新的、我們通過的這個財劃法有明文規定啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們也會維持……"],["陳委員玉珍：不得少於修正施行前一年的預算編列數嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你們要遵守嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們會遵守啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：所以一般性補助款不能減啊！你們可以減計畫型補助款啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們可以減項目，用其他的來彌補啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：減什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：項目不同的，因為有很多不同項目……"],["陳委員玉珍：項目沒關係，問題是金額啊！這裡說的當然是金額啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：金額我們會維持啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：啊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：金額會維持。"],["陳委員玉珍：金額會照新版財劃法規定？那好。","以時程來講，現在在編概算了嘛！正常是四月到五月，對吧？我說中央政府總預算編成的時間表，現在是四月到五月，請問中央對各地方的統籌分配稅款額度什麼時候會出來？知道什麼時候出來，地方才好做他們115年的編列計畫啊！什麼時候會出來？現在是四月到五月，應該在編概算了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：那是財政部的業務，要請財政部說明。"],["陳委員玉珍：財政部？次長，什麼時候會出來？各縣市統籌分配稅款的額度什麼時候會出來？因為115年的概算你們在編了，那地方也要開始準備。"],["阮次長清華：現在有兩個問題，就是今年剛好出口旺盛，所以營業稅退稅特別多；另外，所得稅結算申報也延後1個月，所以目前財源是不足的。我們現在找地方政府來開會，有關統籌分配稅款這部分目前是有一點打折啦！但是等到結算申報結束、有財源之後，我們會全部籌足。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係，那是什麼時候？幾月份可以編出來？"],["阮次長清華：統籌……"],["陳委員玉珍：幾月？幾月？"],["阮次長清華：最慢是八月份啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：八月喔？"],["阮次長清華：最慢是八月。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以八月才可以……"],["阮次長清華：最慢。"],["陳委員玉珍：喔！最慢八月？所以應該這樣說，你們八月以前會給這個檔案啦！"],["阮次長清華：對，但是我相信應該會早一點。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，八月以前會給各個地方？因為各個地方也要編他們自己的計畫。"],["阮次長清華：對，他們也要編。"],["陳委員玉珍：也要給地方一點時間。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：八月以前？謝謝次長。","請問主計總處，你們發函給各個縣市還有直轄市政府，說114年中央政府對地方政府一般性補助款中五月到十二月的分配數改為未分配數，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是因為你們現在正對財劃法……是總預算啦！你們針對總預算也在做一些救濟，對不對？是不是？針對總預算也在走救濟嘛！在聲請釋憲是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：以我們金門來講，本來五到十二月的一般性補助款分配數是十億多，現在改成五億多，其他改為未分配數。那你說要視救濟結果而定，救濟結果是指釋憲嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：等釋憲？如果到今年底都沒辦法釋憲、沒有結果呢？這筆錢要不要分？要不要發出來？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這筆……"],["陳委員玉珍：以金門來講，從10億變成5億，那你說要等救濟結果，如果救濟到年底都沒有釋憲、都沒有結果呢？原來10億變5億這筆錢分不分？"],["陳主計長淑姿：到時候再看，看……"],["陳委員玉珍：什麼叫「再看」？"],["陳主計長淑姿：看要刪減哪一項，因為現在要刪減的636億還沒有確認嘛！"],["陳委員玉珍：你這樣叫地方怎麼施政呢？現在五月到十二月要怎麼施政？你給一半，那地方政務不就會停頓嗎？整個都會受影響啊！所以什麼時候？總有個時間吧？如果到年底都沒有呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們會儘快……"],["陳委員玉珍：也是會給，是不是？你們是不是會給？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不一定。"],["陳委員玉珍：也不一定會給？也可能變成零就對了？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，因為……"],["陳委員玉珍：有可能變成零？"],["陳主計長淑姿：如果到時候要刪減的話，就會刪減。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以也有可能？本來是50%，也可能變成零嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：那你們如果有這樣的方向、打算，也要早一點讓地方政府知道啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：不然地方政府五月到十二月到底要怎麼施政嘛？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，我們會儘量……"],["陳委員玉珍：要早一點嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝主計長。","接著請總裁。"],["主席：請總裁。"],["陳委員玉珍：我看那天記者訪問、問問題的時候，您結結巴巴，今天應該不會啦！我都是講國語啦！只是如果要說比較言不由衷的話，就會「哇、哇、哇……」。"],["楊總裁金龍：我一開始的聲明就是說我口才不好，所以會有結巴的現象，也不是因為我結結巴巴就代表言不由衷。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是言不由衷喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得不要這樣……"],["陳委員玉珍：你不好意思說謊啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：而且外界又說就是因為我不善於說謊，才會這樣結結巴巴，好像認定我就是說謊。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有啦！沒有說你說謊啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我才會……"],["陳委員玉珍：你結結巴巴就是因為不想說謊，但是又不知道怎麼回答嘛！有提問也沒辦法回答。"],["楊總裁金龍：也不是，我只是說我的口才不好。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係啦！不爭議這個，辛苦了，我要問你實質的問題。剛剛也有很多人問過有沒有所謂彭淮南防線、有沒有所謂楊金龍防線、有沒有什麼力守30塊大關等等，你說所有防線都沒有啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是你也知道現在很多出口商很辛苦，面臨很嚴重的挑戰。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：對於臺幣升值是不是臺美談判的議題，我們也問了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：卓榮泰院長說未來不……賴總統是說沒有觸及這個議題，我那天問卓院長，卓院長也說沒有，但未來不一定。你也說你們沒有參加臺美經貿工作小組嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們沒有，而美國也沒有要求你們嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你可以承諾匯率不會是臺美談判議題嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，我現在又要回過頭來講，事實上，我們跟美國財政部……"],["陳委員玉珍：有兩次對不對？我剛剛聽到，所以我也想問你這一題，是哪兩次？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，只是說……"],["陳委員玉珍：每年兩次嘛！請問分別大概是什麼時候？"],["楊總裁金龍：每年至少兩次，固定是兩次，但是……"],["陳委員玉珍：幾月？"],["楊總裁金龍：大部分是在匯率報告出來之前會有一次。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那是去年十一月？"],["楊總裁金龍：而一年會有兩個匯率報告……"],["陳委員玉珍：那你們大概都固定在幾月跟美國討論？"],["楊總裁金龍：以前都是在四月中以前，另一次是在十月中以前。"],["陳委員玉珍：四月中跟十月中？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，但是我也要跟委員報告，我們一直強調，事實上我們跟美國財政部溝通良好，我的意思是什麼？就是在這個議題方面，我們都互相信任，這是第一點。第二點，我們若有什麼問題要跟他們請教，隨時都可以……"],["陳委員玉珍：可以熱線不斷啦！有問題就用熱線就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，就是這樣子。"],["陳委員玉珍：是跟美國的總裁嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們說的溝通良好就是這個意思啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：好，但是我們的總統也好、我們的院長也好，都說這次談判是沒有談到匯率的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有。"],["陳委員玉珍：你也說沒有嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：那是南韓央行總裁說謊嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我就不知道啊！我之前就說……"],["陳委員玉珍：你認識他嗎？因為你們有時候會開會。"],["楊總裁金龍：我認識他。"],["陳委員玉珍：你認識他喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：我認識他。"],["陳委員玉珍：但他說美國有，他沒有說什麼施壓啦！他只說不一定是要升或降，但是有談到這個議題，我應該會比較相信你啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我跟委員報告，就是……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以南韓這位央行總裁所說的可能不是實話？"],["楊總裁金龍：我不曉得……"],["陳委員玉珍：這些人當中只有一個人說的是實話嘛！因為他有說到臺灣啊！他說美國和日本、臺灣、馬來西亞也有談到嘛！而我們的總統說沒有。"],["楊總裁金龍：不會啦！因為他不知道我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：要麼就是賴清德總統說謊，要麼就是南韓央行總裁說謊。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，因為他對於我們臺灣的情況不曉得啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：所以是他信口開河喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也不曉得南韓有沒有跟美國談，我也不曉得啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：但他有提到啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我覺得很奇怪啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係啦！反正要麼就是賴總統說謊，要麼就是南韓央行這邊……"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得誰說謊或誰不說謊……"],["陳委員玉珍：你沒有辦法判斷喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我沒辦法判斷。"],["陳委員玉珍：我也沒有辦法判斷，不過沒關係，我們用歷史記錄。我再請問一題……"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我要強調的就是我講的是實話！我講的是實話。"],["陳委員玉珍：你講的是實話？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：你講的一定是實話喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：只要是不結結巴巴的時候。","總裁，我想請教你一題，是最後一題。美國半年發布一次匯率報告，上一次是11月5號嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：我國繼續被列為匯率操縱國的觀察名單，請問你預測這一次會繼續列還是會升級？因為也快要公布了。"],["楊總裁金龍：你說什麼？"],["陳委員玉珍：這一次匯率報告，就是美國財政部半年發布一次那個報告。"],["楊總裁金龍：如果據他們這3項標準的話，我們還是在觀察名單啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你覺得應該還是會在觀察名單？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝總裁。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉，邱志偉委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","請陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","王世堅","林思銘","涂權吉","王鴻薇","謝龍介","陳玉珍","陳冠廷","林楚茵","翁曉玲"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、國家發展委員會\n劉主任委員鏡清、勞動部洪部長申翰、銓敘部施部長能傑就「我國如果要設立國家主權基金，中\n央銀行與政府相關基金（如四大基金等）所扮演的角色為何？」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00006"}}},{"id":"161118","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161118","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c17ad41dcec0ba641ebf088656e97d3403567847e18f9cb587a3b85e23f7c4a8dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"12:33:23 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有請邱部長"},{"start":16.983,"end":31.128,"text":"委員好部長好部長長照2.0即將期滿那也要迎接長照3.0是的那也打算放寬我們你們衛福部也打算放寬3.0的試用範圍那在長照3.0上路前因為2.0版本的實施經費從105年開始是從47.97億大概是48億左右到了去年是828億成長了大概17倍"},{"start":43.453,"end":56.84,"text":"那我想要請教一下因為我在資料裡面沒有看到請教未來十年的財務規劃跟財源說明好 謝謝委員的關心是不是容我請理事長跟委員報告"},{"start":58.125,"end":87.408,"text":"感謝委員對於這個問題的關心我跟委員報告我們現在目前的長澳基金到今年上個月已經累積到2036億就是說這個是我們現在目前已經有一個長澳基金的一個累積那也這個裡面根據長福法第15條的規定主要事實上是從菸稅還有房地合一稅還有一正稅那我跟委員報告我們以我們現在目前的使用率跟我們現在目前的退估我跟委員報告10年之內沒有問題"},{"start":88.009,"end":88.13,"text":"沒有問題 財務"},{"start":90.202,"end":93.844,"text":"財源沒有問題財務也無虞根據第15條第3項第2項第3款的規定就算是這裡面如果說有使用率有增加有出現deficit的話那政府還是我們有多重財源那政府最後會負擔保責任會再去補這樣子會用補的方法財源無虞財源無虞很好"},{"start":117.819,"end":146.374,"text":"那另外大家都知道長照人力也面臨不足那這個年齡層也是逐漸越來越高那所以想要請教未來如果擴大適用的話會需要更多的人力那請問目前增加的長照人力需求推估跟服務需求的人口推估大概是多少那再來就是服務的需求人口推估有沒有包含對於不同失能等級的人數的推估也就是這個研究的部分其實這跟財務都息息相關"},{"start":148.493,"end":166.926,"text":"跟委員報告齁 這個裡面簽署要就是說就是那個需求啦齁那簡單來說一個是供給端一個需求端供給端需求端的部分我們現在目前齁失能力的話我們現在是以這個13.6813.3那失能力呢是以7.99這樣下去估算我們就可以估算出一個人一個需求的部分"},{"start":167.887,"end":193.954,"text":"那供給數的部分的話我們現在目前最主要事實上是造福源造福源我們現在目前是10萬嘛那10萬的部分這裡面我們還會特別是有關機構的部分我們會來強化那現在就是不足啊對不對那我想要另外請問剛剛還有一個問題就是你有針對不同的這個失能等級去做人數的推估嗎因為他可能會需要的需要的服務和細緻度也不一樣嘛所以其實我問這個是要提醒你們"},{"start":195.154,"end":221.508,"text":"細緻的這個需求供給財務都環環相扣那包含提供服務的人這個是一個很大的問題所以我就進一步告訴你因為根據衛福部你們長照2.0的統計居家照顧B等級的部分在全國服務結構中平均是到達了佔比是62.2%但他人力的負荷是持續的增加2023年的時候全國平均每位這個照顧服務員需要服務10.8位長輩"},{"start":223.874,"end":251.457,"text":"那甚至在台北市還高達17.7他要照顧17.7位所以目前長照人力負荷已經嚴重的超標那對於這麼高的負荷你們要不要具體的減輕人力負擔的方案好非常感謝委員幫委員那個可能就是我們統計上面我想再跟委員再做一個再請教但是根據我們的一個估計應該是如果是全國的話應該是平均應該是一個造福源服務6.72"},{"start":253.579,"end":268.617,"text":"這是2023年的數據2024年是6.88而不是委員剛剛所說10因為你剛剛說10那個可能是以你那個所謂ABC的B據點可是我們要算全國所以我剛剛講的就是特別針對這個居家照顧的B的部分B的部分的話"},{"start":268.837,"end":286.375,"text":"所以我剛剛就說了就是在這個部分也是很就是從我們查到的數據這個部分是特別的高沒關係我告訴你因為根據這個居家服務聯盟的統計指出照顧服務員的結構老化平均年齡也都超過了50歲25歲以下僅佔3%這是居家服務聯盟的統計數據然後你整體的人力成長也才1.3%"},{"start":292.401,"end":316.463,"text":"所以我剛剛講的就是看到它已經出現了這個問題所以我剛才說你們有沒有好好的去盤點你們缺了多少你要怎麼增加因為現在看起來就是很困難嘛所以你可能會說有增加待遇啦等等的我看你們報告裡面有可能有提到一些可是我想喔這是短期之內不是這麼簡單可以解決的所以並不是口號式的方式希望可以更細緻去推動因為我現在就要問下一題了嘛因為"},{"start":318.605,"end":336.708,"text":"長照2.0你的給付的薪資實施之後其實我也看到這個居家兆福園的薪資也提高了嘛從3.2萬大概提高到5萬到7萬好像我看到的數字是這樣啊我看到的數據有這樣的情況所以它看起來很不錯可是其實它同時也引發了一件事情就是"},{"start":337.569,"end":357.981,"text":"就是發現這個住宿型的機構跟醫療機構專業人才也是大幅的流失可能會跑到這裡來那所以會導致我們的護理師導致我們職能治療師的短缺那剛好這些也都是我們衛福部在主管的所以它整體而言就是你的供給量就是這麼多啊結果你裡面的比例就失衡了所以"},{"start":359.582,"end":378.91,"text":"我想要告诉你的是那你们要怎么协作或是你要怎么解决这样的问题因为你单点你解决的这个提高他的待遇结果发现这边的人就跑过来了所以这是导致了整个医疗的不平均失衡所以我这些问题就是说那你要怎么去做你要怎么跨单位协调你要怎么样去达到他的平衡是"},{"start":380.03,"end":400.029,"text":"包委員我想委員對於這塊真的是非常非常專門而且點出重要的問題那我跟委員報告現在目前就是有關於這個人力的部分我們現在特別是有關於這一個居扶員的部分我們現在有的一個策略主要我們現在目前是希望就是說區分這裡面有這個核心跟比較屬於這一個不要說邊"},{"start":404.533,"end":422.106,"text":"沒有身體接觸的啦這是一個策略另外第二個就是說在機構的部分夜間的部分我們會來強化從新南向國家像印尼還有還有這一個越南引進中階勞動力好次長我剛先點出問題因為時間有限請你們把你們檢討和具體想要做的"},{"start":422.666,"end":441.236,"text":"具體的實施情況不是大標示的可以交一份報告到本席辦公室好的好的然後以及我另外加一個因為時間有限了其實長照3.0的規劃核心是醫療照顧整合嘛是沒錯好那所以包含你們有推出什麼出院準備服務啊大家醫計畫啊資訊管理平台的建置啊"},{"start":441.676,"end":457.46,"text":"我也想要了解一下目前這些整合這個機制的推動進度跟你的關鍵績效指標KPI是什麼你們的你們怎麼去看待這件事情達到有沒有達標先一併的提供給我那另外我要請署長那個我們時效署長感謝委員謝謝"},{"start":467.355,"end":492.408,"text":"好 署長好 我想要請問一下豬肉儀錶板揭露資訊的更新及之為何 認為有沒有足夠的透明度跟公信力這邊跟委員做報告 那我們在邊境抽驗完之後 只要抽驗了我們就會上大概是每一個 假如放行是前一天放行 隔天的上午11點我們就會更動所以我們在這一次的兩批的 因為抽驗到了所以你認為很精準"},{"start":492.948,"end":511.703,"text":"我們是盡量能夠達到精準但是抽驗呢是是random的百分比的沒有辦法在百分之百我們盡量能夠接近好那我也問一下部長那我也相信這個我們豬肉儀表板的公信力希望那上週也質詢之前也有問到部長其實農業部網站也有寫其實什麼進口豬肉只佔台灣消費的10%影響不大對嗎"},{"start":519.13,"end":542.391,"text":"看起來現在的狀況是這樣子你覺得是這樣嗎整體進口的豬肉跟國內豬肉佔比的確是1比9的比例但是我想要請你們看一下PPT喔那為什麼豬肉以表板上面出現的是24%然後何況這幾年三年平均是15%喔那今年爆成60%到市佔率的24%所以這到底準還是不準啊"},{"start":545.564,"end":559.29,"text":"這邊跟委員說進一步報告那個是國內的豬肉的占比的部分是我們抽驗的時候的比例那其實國內的豬我們放心國外的豬我們沒有那麼放心所以國外的進口就會抽的比例高"},{"start":559.85,"end":577.444,"text":"所以這兩個就有一個蠻大的落差對就表示說我們對國外進口的我們其實是眼睛睜得更大抽驗比例會更高的來去做這件事那這兩件事是要統合嗎還是你覺得不需要這兩個數字因為這樣子很讓人覺得很擔憂這個供薪力到底因為兩個數字一個你剛剛說1比90%現在這裡24%那這樣子大家看了會不會覺得說怎麼會這樣一個是實際上的消費端對一個是我們的抽驗"},{"start":586.832,"end":612.802,"text":"那你看到抽驗跟消費端有很大的落差嘛這樣會讓人家更擔心喔 署長你這樣講就代表你抽驗就不準嘛就是因為他的邏輯是在因為國外進來的我們比較不放心而且呢因為現在也允許美國相關的豬肉國際的豬肉 雄來克多巴胺等等可是說國外進來比較不放心喔所以我們就特別會去有比較高一點點的比例來做抽驗"},{"start":613.482,"end":630.494,"text":"可是這就是這兩天大家在吵的嘛就是說這個吃了再多也不會有太大的不良影響所以然後你又說對外國其實又很嚴格那這又很好玩了如果說你覺得都沒影響的話那法規上為什麼本土的要臨檢出那這不就是一個雙標的狀況出現了嗎"},{"start":633.55,"end":656.26,"text":"我想在訂定這個標準的過程當中其實在110年的時空背景底下我們對於進口豬肉裡面的豬肉的萊克多巴胺的殘留訂了這樣子的結果之後那我們有訂標準之後我們就是加強的一個查緝的一個概念因為剛剛這樣子講起來其實邏輯上有一些矛盾啦所以我覺得主要就是要符合民眾安心的標準"},{"start":657.08,"end":685.939,"text":"再者剛剛說如果兩種豬肉混在一起那消費者怎麼判斷這兩個豬肉有沒有混到會不會產生他們的疑慮消費者會不知道所以我想因為包含這次的廠商我想這就是一個國人安心的標準你剛才說安心署長不是安全署長安心的標準所以你看這次進口的廠商他說進口到萊豬對他的商譽也有危害所以不僅要求他銷毀不進入市場然後也跟消費者致歉"},{"start":686.639,"end":696.163,"text":"所以我覺得這個東西就是我們今天一直在講的事情就是一個是安心民眾安心的狀況那講到安心的話部長這個有關於美國農業行銷署他有一個叫做NFBAP的制度不曉得部長知不知道"},{"start":706.098,"end":728.473,"text":"這邊我跟部長報告過好那針對這一塊呢我們覺得我們也非常非常積極的鼓勵未來假如是國內的進口的能夠往這個方向走對樂見其成部長簡單來講署長因為我想可能很多人不見得知道這個叫做就是從未添加乙型受體素的這個深處的養殖場好那這就是所謂的NFBAP的制度"},{"start":729.173,"end":758.239,"text":"所以也是說這個2022年的時候農業部跟食藥署有去查場的有六間廠去美國查場的六間廠那在這個NFBAP上面好像都是在這上面的名單請問是不是跟委員做進一步報告我們後來看到的是有特別有這樣子的廠那USDA美國農業部他也是在業者裡面的自主標示我覺得是自主標示那請問你們去查的那六間是不是都屬於在這個名單上的"},{"start":759.179,"end":779.727,"text":"有在六間裡面有五間五間嘛然後一間不在你會看到有一間不在對有一間是不在那我想要問一下所以我國從進口美珠的這些來源的牧場總共有幾場那是不是都在這53個名單裡還是說其實就像你剛剛說有一間不是所以其實是也有沒有參加這個計畫的來源是不是"},{"start":780.902,"end":790.179,"text":"我們在按照所謂的系統性查核向下讓系統查核之後能夠允許的他們就可以做進口那大概是這樣子的一個狀態"},{"start":791.747,"end":813.37,"text":"所以署長我想要講的事情是其實剛剛也是在炒當初所謂行政院他就是說這個所有的萊豬都從美國來那其他的地方都沒有查所以最終我們要講的事情是通過這些事件我們就是再一次的希望我們的食藥署可以讓人家感讓民眾感到安心讓民眾感到安心你應該要"},{"start":814.472,"end":829.867,"text":"更加積極喔因為你一直說安心的署長嘛可是你一開始講的話好像是說這個跟科學違背啦所以我就好像開放了讓大家感覺到沒有被保護的感覺喔所以我想要小結一下我是不知道衛福部有沒有什麼壓力啊"},{"start":830.367,"end":835.491,"text":"但我知道這個本來大張旗鼓其實要號稱要保障全民食安的這個安心的主管機關有剛剛講到有這個雙標的狀況出現包含讓人家覺得為什麼外國可以有來濟那國內不一定要零檢出其實這讓民眾也對於食安憂心忡忡"},{"start":851.562,"end":863.591,"text":"所以對於國外號稱沒有來機的食品又違背了自己過去的承諾雖然當時不是你們做但是沒有好好的去考察跟把關所以希望這一部分請我們衛福部回去檢討並且落實今天的臨時提案"},{"start":866.593,"end":891.648,"text":"那我最後還是要跟署長講一句話還要強調一下其實不是通過一句透過科學檢驗就當作明顯死金牌其實安心跟安全是一直是兩回事所以部長如果沒有想清楚這件事的話其實讓民眾實在安心這件事情是做不到的所以這部分請我們的部長跟署長回去好好的再去思索一下應該怎麼去做才可以讓民眾安心謝謝謝謝謝謝六位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":896,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（12時33分）謝謝主席，有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。部長，長照2.0即將期滿，要迎接長照3.0。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["廖委員偉翔：你們衛福部也打算放寬3.0的適用範圍，在長照3.0上路前，因為2.0版本的實施經費從105年開始是47.97億，大概48億左右，到了去年是828億，成長了大概17倍，我想要請教一下，因為我在資料裡面沒有看到，請教未來10年的財務規劃跟財源說明。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員的關心，是不是容我請呂次長跟委員報告？"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員對於這個問題的關心，我跟委員報告，長照基金到上個月已經累積到2,036億，我們目前已經有一個長照基金的累積，這個是根據長服法第十五條的規定，主要是從菸稅、房地合一稅及遺贈稅，依我們目前的使用率跟目前的推估，我跟委員報告，10年之內沒有問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有問題？"],["呂次長建德：沒有問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：財源沒有問題。"],["呂次長建德：財源無虞。"],["廖委員偉翔：財務也無虞嘛？財務規劃也無虞。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。根據第十五條第二項第三款的規定，這裡面如果使用率有增加，有出現deficit的話，我們有多重財源，政府最後會負擔保責任。"],["廖委員偉翔：會再去補這樣子。"],["呂次長建德：會用補的方式，我也跟委員報告，財源無虞。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，財源無虞，很好。","另外，大家都知道長照人力面臨不足，年齡層也是逐漸越來越高，所以想要請教，未來如果擴大適用會需要更多的人力，請問目前增加的長照人力需求推估跟服務需求人口推估大概是多少？再來，服務需求人口推估有沒有包含對於不同失能等級人數的推估？也就是研究的部分，其實這與財務都息息相關。"],["呂次長建德：對，當然。好，跟委員報告，這裡面牽涉到需求，簡單來說，一個是需求端，一個是供給端，需求端的部分，目前的失能率是13.3%，我們是以7.99%去估算，這樣就可以估算出一個需求數。"],["廖委員偉翔：需求的部分。"],["呂次長建德：至於供給數的話，目前最主要是照服員，照服員目前是10萬人，那10萬的部分，這裡面特別是有關機構的部分，我們會來強化。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是現在就是不足啊！對不對？"],["呂次長建德：對，當然不足。"],["廖委員偉翔：另外請問，剛剛還有一個問題，就是你有針對不同的失能等級去做人數的推估嘛？"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為他可能需要的服務和細緻度也不一樣，好不好？"],["呂次長建德：當然。"],["廖委員偉翔：其實我問這個是要提醒你們，細緻的需求供給、財務都環環相扣。"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["廖委員偉翔：包含提供服務的人，這是一個很大的問題，所以我進一步告訴你，根據衛福部長照2.0的統計，居家照顧B等級的部分，在全國服務結構中的占比是62.2%，但是人力的負荷是持續地增加。2023年的時候，全國平均每位照顧服務員需要服務10.8位長輩，甚至在臺北市還要照顧17.7位，所以目前長照人力負荷已經嚴重超標，對於這麼高的負荷，你們有沒有減輕人力負擔具體的方案？"],["呂次長建德：好，非常感謝委員，可能在統計上面要再跟委員做一個請教，因為根據我們的估計，如果以全國來講，平均應該是一個照服員服務6.72，這是2023年的數據，2024年是6.88，而不是委員剛剛所說的10。因為你剛剛說10，那個可能是以所謂ABC的B據點。"],["廖委員偉翔：對。"],["呂次長建德：可是我們要算是算全國。"],["廖委員偉翔：我剛剛講的就是特別針對居家照顧B的部分。"],["呂次長建德：對，B的部分應該也不是……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我剛剛就說了，從我們查到的數據，這個部分是特別高。沒關係，我告訴你，根據居家服務聯盟的統計指出，照顧服務員的結構老化，平均年齡也都超過了50歲，25歲以下僅占3%，這是居家服務聯盟的統計數據。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["廖委員偉翔：然後你整體的人力成長也才1.3%，已經看到它出現了這個問題，所以我剛剛才說你們有沒有好好地去盤點你們缺了多少、你要怎麼增加，因為現在看起來就是很困難嘛！你可能會說有增加待遇等等的，我看你們報告裡面有提到一些，可是在短期之內不是這麼簡單就可以解決的，所以並不是口號式的方式。"],["呂次長建德：當然、當然。"],["廖委員偉翔：希望可以更細緻去推動。我現在就要問下一題了，在長照2.0的給付新制實施之後，我看到居家照服員的薪資也提高了嘛！"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：從3.2萬大概提高到5萬至7萬，好像我看到的數字是這樣啦！我看到的數據有這樣的情況，所以看起來很不錯，可是它同時也引發了一件事情，就是發現住宿型機構及醫療機構的專業人才大幅地流失，可能會跑到這裡來，所以導致護理師、職能治療師的短缺，剛好這些也都是衛福部主管的，所以整體而言，你的供給量就是這麼多，結果你裡面的比例就會失衡。","我想要告訴你的是，你們要怎麼協作或是你要怎麼解決這樣的問題？因為你單點解決了這個，提高他的待遇，結果發現這邊的人就跑過來了，這就導致了整個醫療的不平均、失衡，所以我這邊的問題是說，你要怎麼去做？你要怎麼跨單位協調？你要怎麼樣去達到平衡？"],["呂次長建德：是，我想委員對於這一塊真的是非常非常專門，而且也點出重要的問題，我跟委員報告，有關於人力的部分，特別是有關於居服員的部分，我們現在有策略，目前是希望區分這裡面的核心跟比較屬於……不要說邊陲，沒有身體接觸的啦！這是一個策略。第二個，在機構的部分、夜間的部分我們會來強化，從新南向國家，向印尼還有越南引進中階勞動力。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，次長，我剛剛先點出問題，因為時間有限，請你們把你們檢討和具體想要做的，具體的實施情況而不是大標式的，可不可以交一份報告到本席辦公室？"],["呂次長建德：好的。"],["廖委員偉翔：然後我另外加一個，因為時間有限，其實長照3.0的規劃核心是醫療照顧整合嘛！"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯。"],["廖委員偉翔：包含你們有推出什麼出院準備服務、大家醫計畫、資訊管理平臺的建置，我也想要瞭解一下目前這個整合機制的推動進度跟你的關鍵績效指標KPI是什麼，你們怎麼去看待這件事情有沒有達標，請一併提供給我。"],["呂次長建德：OK。"],["廖委員偉翔：另外，我要請食藥署署長。"],["呂次長建德：好，感謝委員，謝謝。"],["姜署長至剛：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：署長好。我想要請問一下，豬肉儀表板揭露資訊的更新機制為何？你認為有沒有足夠的透明度和公信力？"],["姜署長至剛：這邊跟委員做報告，我們在邊境抽驗完之後，只要抽驗的我們就會上，假如是前一天放行，隔天的上午11點我們就會更動，所以在這一次的兩批，因為抽驗到的時間不同……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你認為很精準？"],["姜署長至剛：我們是儘量能夠達到精準，但是抽驗是random的、百分比的，沒有辦法百分之百，我們儘量能夠接近。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，那我問一下部長，我也相信我們豬肉儀表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還有少許沒什麼感情我今天沒什麼感情兩件事要來跟你討論好嗎好 哪裡哪裡好你行嗎好 哪裡我們古早人說的 水不寒 霧雨滴 雙撇水不燃 霧雨滴 滾煮所以看你在印度的過程中 我感覺你擔當很多啦所以我是很欠佩你謝謝當然有我顧你的啦"},{"start":74.563,"end":97.901,"text":"五個的報告你可以做一些說明這沒問題台灣的利益跟美國的利益衝突的時候請教你 你會站在什麼人的利益當然啊 都是我們的利益啊我們的利益 是什麼人的利益全民的利益啊好全民的利益我今天就基金跟法律你可以報告說 基金"},{"start":100.458,"end":107.925,"text":"不應該有外匯,不是說不應該,是說外匯絕對不能無所謂給你們提供的嘛是是是,對啦對啦,沒有不對啦那這樣就是說,這次的談判,其實是我們的老總統因為他看美國人一直找不問路,最後,最後,美國的工資"},{"start":122.202,"end":132.112,"text":"如果要求無息不要說一百年 五十年 或者是三十年 二十年只要是沒理息要求我們高級的公司把它退換過來"},{"start":134.125,"end":146.315,"text":"這個我選的時候 你如何面對我跟委員報告 基本上你不要說 你如何面對你這是假設議題啦不是假設喔不不不 我要再跟你報告因為你的立場 美國的財政部啦你的立場很清楚就是 外匯不能無雙使用所以我認為你很好啊所以 如果是這樣"},{"start":161.747,"end":165.249,"text":"總統要求無線告白美國的工程,你是要選擇下台還是選擇尊重?我跟委員報告"},{"start":173.325,"end":188.597,"text":"我敢說總統不會有這種要求你有比我更了解他?你讓他更了解,我看那是另外一個議題我告訴你,你問單純出家長,我告訴你,總統就是有可能這樣做嘛"},{"start":195.185,"end":217.157,"text":"空氣不來風啦這基金啦其實不在於台灣啦台灣錢很多 台灣錢比較少但是監督的機制如果沒有出來這八檔的外商高級 我跟你講 像太陽能光電這樣游到整個燈去 綠油油的出來這是專民 不能忍受的好 來 給你就是這個法律啦 對很困難 我很多這裡的中小企業 我過去也做過 是是是"},{"start":225.121,"end":244.054,"text":"這半的高趴 坦白說在我揮擦 揮過頭面不用講忍耐 大家可以渡過渡過之後當然你有你的內部 你有你的盤算但是關稅大概就是25%啦企業對美國這個賣壓來說收到的應該差不多是一人一半啦所以吸收一半12.5% 恆恆你這個9.5%就可以大分 率先加算了"},{"start":253.94,"end":271.454,"text":"企業的危難就是說我可以不談我百四五十年了我三台車沒問題啊但是我請外的員工一個員工一個家庭我不能讓失業現在企業的煩惱是這個社會責任跟社會得益加上流行失業的問題OK來 現在我請教你很嚴肅的很多企業叫我說一定要怎樣因為大家在問的都這樣沒重要是這個"},{"start":282.322,"end":299.696,"text":"因為他所有的頂端 整個年底就說你今天如果可以做一個保證這樣他們到明年第一季所有的頂端 他可以去安排他的風險要怎麼來拼所以我正式在這裡跟你請教一個問題到今年12月底 12月30日以前 新代表29口本你收得到嗎"},{"start":306.741,"end":312.822,"text":"非常簡單的問題對啦 我說匯率它是有升有貶啦我知道啦 因為你這個答案 我沒有給你為難喔是是是我沒有給你為難 因為你今天這個答案出來 他們能夠到明年第一季他知道他要怎麼拚不用風險 這樣台灣能夠往來十個月"},{"start":333.187,"end":343.311,"text":"不過不然我跟委員報告事實上到現在30塊已經有很多...你不要要求很多人 總裁啊 你跟總裁請教一下你對以前29號沒有收的到嗎這個我要跟委員報告這個我沒有辦法回答你"},{"start":359.358,"end":378.875,"text":"我們這裡所有的黨主席,可以你跟我說的話我已經忘了十二月三十一疫情,由總裁說二十九個月,代表二十九個月他不一定收得到,他如果收不到了,他現在也沒辦法保證我沒有說我收得到收不到了,我只是說你這個問題我沒辦法跟你回答"},{"start":385.621,"end":390.023,"text":"我沒有說我收不收不收,這是兩回事,這個是兩回事所以這兩天你講的一個問題,就是有機的心理,所以不一定是馬祖豪,要自己手上手來我會拋喔我會再給他回顧"},{"start":406.449,"end":419.839,"text":"你一直在這裏著墨這個匯率你是立法委員的大員所以你一直在這裏說話會影響市場的預期所以我告訴你不要在這個時候一直在著墨"},{"start":426.417,"end":431.321,"text":"今天我告訴你200元就會有議席今天是對30元到29元不然你還要請求這個國務卿來代你講20元給人家 你講19元給人家 要不要收工"},{"start":445.092,"end":452.634,"text":"總裁沒有說過29個月跟200個月會一樣的所以正式的答案就是29個月他收不掉沒有 我沒有這樣說沒有 我沒有這個意思"},{"start":465.758,"end":469.521,"text":"你沒有這個意思 你說台灣外交有兩種藝術所以我要慎重跟委員來討論在國會議場討論匯率比較serious"},{"start":484.893,"end":487.935,"text":"這要謹慎 謹慎要節制我們都知道 這事情我們都知道我們當然關心但是你現在在說的時候 我不是說你關心一定會害他"},{"start":515.573,"end":519.855,"text":"所以我跟你們說的就是29個月你一定收不掉OK 謝謝我沒有這個意思"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1487,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（12時33分）主席，請總裁。"],["主席：總裁請。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝委員早。"],["謝委員龍介：楊總裁早。"],["楊總裁金龍：早。"],["謝委員龍介：我講河洛語，你有困難嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有困難。"],["謝委員龍介：你不會用臺語回答啊！那就不會這樣了。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我跟你報告，事實上，我的國語不是很輪轉，但是我的臺語也不是很輪轉。"],["謝委員龍介：你說的國語跟我一樣。"],["楊總裁金龍：因為你們臺南的腔調跟我們的腔調又不大一樣。"],["謝委員龍介：你是哪裡人？"],["楊總裁金龍：我是屏東人。"],["謝委員龍介：屏東就在隔壁，一樣啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，還是有些不一樣。"],["謝委員龍介：我今天有2件事情要就教你。"],["楊總裁金龍：哪裡！哪裡！"],["謝委員龍介：你辛苦了！古人說「水不寒，不易得傷病；事不難，不易得君子」，從你的應對過程裡，我覺得你承擔了很多事情，所以我很欽佩你。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["謝委員龍介：當然，五界八道說的，你也知道，你也有做一些說明，這個沒有問題，當臺灣的利益和美國的利益相衝突的時候，請教你，你會站在哪一方的利益上？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然是我方的利益。"],["謝委員龍介：我方的利益是誰的利益？"],["楊總裁金龍：全民的利益。"],["謝委員龍介：好，那我今天就要就基金和匯率來請教你，早上你的報告是說，基金不應該由外匯存底……也不是說不應該啦！是外匯存底不能無償給你們拿去用，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["謝委員龍介：所以這一次的談判或是賴總統，因為他和美國人一直找不到出路，如果最後他們要求美國公債無息，也不用說100年，就50年、30年或20年沒有利息，如果他們要求我們到期的公債要兌換成無息公債，當這種事情發生時，你要如何面對？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，基本上……"],["謝委員龍介：沒有，你要如何面對？"],["楊總裁金龍：你這是假設性的議題。"],["謝委員龍介：不是假設的。"],["楊總裁金龍：不，我跟你報告，因為美國財政部……"],["謝委員龍介：你的立場很清楚，就是外匯存底不能無償撥用，我認為你做得很好。如果是這樣，如果總統要求你無息購買美國公債時，你要選擇下臺還是選擇順從？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，我敢說總統不會做這樣的要求。"],["謝委員龍介：你有比我更瞭解他嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：你比較瞭解他是另外一個議題。"],["謝委員龍介：我跟你說，你問陳淑姿主計長，總統就是有可能這樣做，空穴不來風，這是第一點。第二點，其實這個基金不缺財源，臺灣錢很多，「臺灣錢，淹跤目」，但是監督的機制如果沒有出來，那這8年的官商勾結就會像太陽能光電那樣全部都到綠油油的手中，這是全民都無法忍受的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["謝委員龍介：第二是匯率，現在大環境很困難，過去我也是做外銷的，坦白講，這次升值9%在我結匯的過程中，我勉強還可以忍耐，大家都可以渡過，但是渡過之後，當然，你有你的內線和盤算，但是關稅大概就是25%，企業從美國所收到的利潤差不多就是一人一半，所以吸收一半後就只剩下12.5%，但是你匯率一下子就升值9.5%，說實在的，這會讓他們雪上加霜。企業為難的是，我可以不賺錢，因為我已經努力了四、五十年，我吃三代都沒有問題，但是我有上千名的員工，一個員工一個家庭，我不能讓他們失業。現在企業煩惱的是社會責任、社會道義和勞工失業的問題。","OK！來，我現在請教你，這個問題很嚴肅，很多企業都叫我一定要問你，因為大家問的那些都不重要，實質的，因為他們到年底的所有訂單，只要你今天能夠做出保證，那他們到明年第一季所有的訂單，他們就能夠去安排要如何避免風險，所以我在這裡要正式地跟你請教一個問題，到今年12月31日之前，新臺幣29.5元你守得住嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：前面……"],["謝委員龍介：這是很簡單的問題。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！匯率有升有貶……"],["謝委員龍介：我知道，總裁，我沒有要為難你。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["謝委員龍介：因為今天你這個答案一出來，明年第一季前的訂單就能夠顧到，他們就知道要如何避免風險，這樣臺灣就能夠換來10個月的安定哦！"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我要跟委員報告，事實上，現在30元，以前很多時間都在三十多元。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有，他們沒有要求很多，總裁，他們請我跟總裁請教一下，年底以前29.5元守得住嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我要跟委員報告，這個我沒辦法回答你。"],["謝委員龍介：啊！慘！"],["楊總裁金龍：我沒辦法回答你。"],["謝委員龍介：在場所有的董事長，早上你們跟我講的，我已經問完了，楊總裁說12月31日以前新臺幣29.5元他不一定守得住，如果他守不住，他現在也沒有辦法保證，這事情大條了。"],["楊總裁金龍：我沒有說我守不守得住，我是說你這個問題我沒辦法回答，這是兩回事。"],["謝委員龍介：29.5塊欸！不是啦！總裁，你可知道這兩天你提了一個問題很對？就是有預期心理。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員講……"],["謝委員龍介：所以不一定是外資喔！我們自己廠商手裡的也會拋售喔！"],["楊總裁金龍：我再向委員報告，對於你一直在這裡著墨匯率，由於你是立法委員的大員，所以你在這裡講的會影響市場預期。"],["謝委員龍介：是啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我才說你不宜這個時候一直在這邊著墨。"],["謝委員龍介：不！你這樣講不好、我不認同。"],["楊總裁金龍：我國匯率……"],["謝委員龍介：你聽我講。如果我今天是跟你談28塊，就會有預期，但今天我是問從30塊到29.5塊，企業就是從這5角裡面緩衝欸！"],["楊總裁金龍：你說28塊跟29.5塊不是一樣？"],["謝委員龍介：不同。"],["楊總裁金龍：相同。"],["謝委員龍介：總裁，不同喔！29.5塊跟28塊怎麼會相同呢？正式的答案就是29.5塊他守不住！變成這樣了嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有！我沒有這麼說。"],["謝委員龍介：你就是這樣……"],["楊總裁金龍：不！那是你的臆測啦！"],["謝委員龍介：你就是沒辦法保證守住29.5塊啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我沒有這個意思。"],["謝委員龍介：你沒有這個意思，那你又說出……臺灣話難道有兩種意思？"],["楊總裁金龍：不，我沒這個意思。我要慎重向委員……"],["謝委員龍介：現在要慎重？那你用國語講。我們現在用國語講，你認為29.5塊扛不住？"],["楊總裁金龍：我是說不必要談論，在國會議場談論匯率比較serious，要謹慎、要節制。"],["謝委員龍介：不是喔！你不知道，廠商可能因為2%、3%，從賺錢變成賠錢欸！"],["楊總裁金龍：我們都知道，這樣的事情我們都知道。委員，你這樣……"],["謝委員龍介：你們沒有關心這些百姓啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：我們當然關心！"],["謝委員龍介：你要隨他們死活？"],["楊總裁金龍：你在這邊講，我認為是關心他反而等於害他。"],["謝委員龍介：不是喔！今天你這樣講，他們明天就賣了喔！今天你這樣講，民間明天就把手上的賣了喔！所以我在跟你講的就是29.5塊你確定守不住。OK，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：我沒這個意思。"],["主席：謝謝謝委員的質詢。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘，蔡易餘委員不在。","請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","王世堅","林思銘","涂權吉","王鴻薇","謝龍介","陳玉珍","陳冠廷","林楚茵","翁曉玲"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、國家發展委員會\n劉主任委員鏡清、勞動部洪部長申翰、銓敘部施部長能傑就「我國如果要設立國家主權基金，中\n央銀行與政府相關基金（如四大基金等）所扮演的角色為何？」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00006"}}},{"id":"161116","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161116","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c16a4dafae97dfb96fbf088656e97d3403567847e18f9cb587a4b7ee112536bc485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:24:33 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應該會核定那這個我有看到就是說這個就是專為0到2歲的托育利益的專訪然後其中有一項就是說我們保留監視的影像這個儲存30天 然後上傳雲端特別是針對我們的托育機構嘛 對不對其中是不是有這一項那這一項之前是不是也有在做"},{"start":58.427,"end":85.72,"text":"我們之前有一個這個拖音中心監視錄影設備設置及資訊管理利用辦法我們之前是不是有這個辦法我們之前就有可是它是儲存在拖音中心裡面沒有上傳雲端所以我們現在有一個監管雲對我們日後就是我們希望是能夠上傳在地方政府的雲端那現在就是說各個這一個不管是公托私托也有對不對應該是全面性的"},{"start":86.862,"end":110.755,"text":"目前公司立在自己的通運中心都有都有嘛對不對但是他們就是自己保存沒有上傳到雲端所以我們現在是要求是各個縣市政府都要設立這個監管雲嗎那經費就是各個縣市政府自己在處理嗎中央我們補助他們中央會補助中央會補助這個地方政府那是指針對這個通運機構公共的通運機構嗎"},{"start":114.298,"end":128.535,"text":"我們法令通過之後我們就會補助他就是公司裡都要上雲端都要上雲端就對了然後就是保存30天30日因為其實其實我們也擔心其實很多這個案件就是說發現說保存在自己的這一個這個脫肉機構裡面你萬一啦"},{"start":132.439,"end":156.213,"text":"發生事情的時候那通常不知道為什麼這個影片就會找不到所以我們就上場運動當然就是說怎麼去使用它要有相關的配套的措施這個也要兼顧到這一個兒童他們的人權那也包含這個教保員他們的人權我覺得這個就是說這個相關的配套措施要來做好那我再請教一下"},{"start":156.693,"end":164.524,"text":"因為現在今天是討論這個長照3.0那我們這一個長期照護師的師長也有來嘛那現在我再討論一個就是獨老的問題獨老 獨老的問題那現在就是說按照數據來講的話我這裡有2024年的一個數據新北市是全台灣獨老"},{"start":174.457,"end":190.797,"text":"最多的縣市總計有18.9萬人然後其實包含這個台北市高雄市也有那我不知道這個衛福部有沒有去統計就是說那到底我們現在這個獨老的狀況是怎麼樣就是說你超過65歲然後在家裡面只有你一個這個長者在有沒有這個數據"},{"start":192.813,"end":213.004,"text":"那請那個理事長非常感謝委員的關心我跟委員報告我們現在對於所謂獨老我們事實上是有一定的定義就主要指的就是說你的譬如你的這一個子女就兩人兩人都65歲以上這是第一個情況第二個情況可能就是說你有子女可是他不在你所居住的這一個縣市縣市喔就是那個"},{"start":218.712,"end":234.822,"text":"在你現在目前的縣市之外就是你的那個照管的那一個區域以這個定義來說的話我們現在目前全台有五萬五千一百二十九人這是有列冊的是不是有列冊關懷"},{"start":237.203,"end":251.09,"text":"但是我看這個數據也不一樣啊審計部是說五萬多但是你們自己的這個數據是39萬然後內政部更高內政部是六十幾萬報告委員這個事實上是那個定義的問題內政部他們那邊是指就是說你那個是指那個戶是指那個戶數"},{"start":254.051,"end":283.366,"text":"那我們的定義比方就是說虛關懷者虛關懷就是我剛剛說的嘛就是說你要符合這兩個要件那其實範圍滿大你們是以縣市譬如說好那今天在我三重對然後如果說家裡面有一個65歲自己一個人居住的然後呢可是他子女呢一定要在這一個台北才算嗎那如果說他是在在蘆洲那蘆洲可能稍微近一點啦那在板橋那邊那這樣就這樣就不算了是不是"},{"start":285.083,"end":288.779,"text":"那個我們主要的事大概是第一個當然他是自己一個人住"},{"start":289.431,"end":316.282,"text":"然後第二個是說他的子女沒有辦法就近的協助他對 可是你們的範圍太大了是跨縣市喔如果跨峽的話大概在鄰近的我們應該是有縣市就是鄰近的部分我們其實是應該是會第一個是他的這個縣市政府可能會評估啦他的子女是不是能夠照顧他如果不能關懷他那他也可以跟我們提出來我們也會列入在我們的獨老的名冊上我意思就是說你們在用跨縣市"},{"start":317.703,"end":334.044,"text":"那如果是在不是在是同樣的縣市但是不同區那多少人數應該會更多應該這樣講就是說當然戶籍裡面單獨一戶的人就是剛剛提到的那個大概是戶政的資料他的人數是多的"},{"start":334.505,"end":360.281,"text":"可是我們各地方政府在做獨老的這個關懷方式第一個是他可以表達他有需要關懷那這個叫做我們所謂的列冊那我們到今年底大概去年的六月大概是五萬六千人那今年又增加了大概有六萬人那大概我們目前的定義是這個樣子我是討論定義啦我就是說你們現在定義是放的就是說比較寬啦就是說你是要跨縣市捏"},{"start":361.741,"end":387.208,"text":"是不是 比如說你在新北 三重你要跨到基隆 跨到台北然後家裡面只有一個人 這才算是獨老那我意思就是說如果他是住三重但是子女可能在板橋 這樣就不算沒有 他也可以說他有需求我們也會列入第三個條款就是他認為他有需要我們就會把他列進來好 那現在就是說那你們現在對於這種獨老的照顧有沒有列在你們這一個長照3.0裡面"},{"start":390.269,"end":418.289,"text":"報告委員我先做兩個回覆第一個就是說剛剛說的你現在說的這一個39萬跟這一個我們6萬中間有相差28萬那我必須要承認這個我們可能有低估所以我們現在目前其實賴清德總統他也非常關心這個問題所以我們現在目前會有一個我們現在目前會有一個計畫跟地方政府這邊大家共同我們必須要來做一次全國性的一個設備然後把這一個人數我想就是說真的需要關心的我們會把它"},{"start":419.169,"end":439.705,"text":"我覺得需要做一個調查啦這個部分也跟委員報告我們跟內政部那邊已經開過幾次會了我們這個部分計畫會最近會來推出這是第一個重點第二個重點就是說我們現在目前如果說你有這一個其實跟委員報告其實你雖然是獨老可是也不見得就一定會需要受到照顧"},{"start":440.946,"end":458.472,"text":"有些長輩可能我覺得他覺得Live Along可能他自己就想要這樣他也不想要受到人家的打擾所以我們現在最重要是有關懷需求者那有關懷需求的話我們現在目前就是說3號3.0這邊會把他列入那這個列入的話就是除了擴大我們現在目前的1966那部分之外另外我們會加強有關於這剛剛說的獨老的訪視"},{"start":463.206,"end":478.543,"text":"就是說這獨老房子現在是各個縣市政府他們自己社會局在做是他們社會局但是我有一些都是民間自己團體在做像一些獨老送餐那些都是民間團體自己在做的包圍那些有一些是他自己其實因為我在台中當過社會局長"},{"start":479.784,"end":491.116,"text":"有很多事實上是我們社會局我們委託我們用那個我們我們有委辦的方式就是說我們那個名冊給他之後然後呢我們來由他來做送餐我是希望說你們長照3.0把這個獨老這個這個這個有需要照顧的要把它列進去那有時候他他"},{"start":499.484,"end":520.361,"text":"有時候老人家會覺得說我不需要你的照顧但實際上他可能有需要啊所以不是說我不需要你的照顧那你就不用照顧但實際上他可能老人家有說面子或是怎麼樣我覺得這個東西你們自己要去除了他主觀的意願之外一些客觀的一些條件你們也要去做評估啊OK 好吧今天就先這樣好 謝謝李委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":828,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時24分）謝謝主席。邱部長先喝口水再上來，沒關係，你慢慢喝，沒關係。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好，辛苦了。今天院會會通過兒童托育服務法，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：有報告，應該會核定。"],["李委員坤城：好。我有看到，專為0到2歲的托育立一個專法，然後其中有一項就是保留監視的影像，儲存30天，然後上傳雲端，特別是針對我們的托育機構嘛，對不對？其中是不是有這一項？"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["李委員坤城：這一項之前是不是也有在做？我們之前有一個托嬰中心監視錄影設備設置及資訊管理利用辦法，之前是不是有這個辦法？"],["張副署長美美：我們之前就有了，可是是儲存在托嬰中心裡面。"],["李委員坤城：沒有上傳雲端嘛。"],["張副署長美美：對。"],["李委員坤城：所以現在有一個監管雲嘛，是不是？"],["張副署長美美：對，我們希望日後能夠上傳到地方政府的雲端。"],["李委員坤城：現在就是公托有，私托也有嘛，對不對？應該是全面性的，對不對？"],["張副署長美美：目前公私立托嬰中心都有。"],["李委員坤城：都有嘛，對不對？但是他們就是自己保存，沒有上傳到雲端，所以我們現在是要求各個縣市政府都要設立監管雲嗎？"],["張副署長美美：對。"],["李委員坤城：經費就是各個縣市政府自己處理嗎？"],["張副署長美美：中央補助他們。"],["李委員坤城：中央會補助地方政府，那是只針對公共的托育機構嗎？"],["張副署長美美：法令通過之後，我們就會補助，就是公私立都要上雲端。"],["李委員坤城：都要上雲端就對了？"],["張副署長美美：是。"],["李委員坤城：然後就是保存30天。"],["張副署長美美：30日。"],["李委員坤城：其實我們也很擔心，在很多案件中，發現保存在托幼機構裡面，萬一發生事情的時候，通常不知道為什麼影片就會找不到，所以我們就上傳雲端。當然怎麼去使用它，要有相關的配套措施，也要兼顧到兒童的人權，也包含教保員他們的人權，就是相關的配套措施也要做好。","我再請教一下，因為今天是討論長照3.0，今天長期照顧司的司長也有來。現在我再討論一個問題，就是獨老的問題，按照數據來講的話，我這裡有一個2024年的數據，新北市是全臺灣獨老最多的縣市，總計有18.9萬人，包含臺北市、高雄市也有，我不知道衛福部有沒有去統計到底現在獨老的狀況是怎麼樣，就是超過65歲、家裡只有一個長者在，有沒有這個數據？"],["邱部長泰源：有。請呂次長說明。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員的關心。我跟委員報告，我們現在對於獨老事實上是有一定的定義，主要指的是家中兩個人都是65歲以上，這是第一個情況；第二個情況可能就是雖然有子女，可是子女不在父母居住的這個縣市……"],["李委員坤城：縣市喔？"],["呂次長建德：就是不在父母現在居住的縣市，就是父母接受照管的那一個區域，以這個定義來說的話，目前全臺有5萬5,129人。"],["李委員坤城：這是有列冊的是不是？"],["呂次長建德：這是有列冊關懷的部分。"],["李委員坤城：但是我看這個數據也不一樣啊，審計部是說五萬多，但是你們自己的數據是39萬，然後內政部更高，內政部是六十幾萬。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這個事實上是定義的問題，內政部那邊是指戶數，我們的定義比較像是需關懷者，就是我剛剛說的，就是要符合這兩個要件。"],["李委員坤城：其實範圍滿大的，你們是以縣市來看，比如說，今天如果在三重有一個65歲的長者自己一個人居住，可是他的子女一定要在臺北才算嘛，如果是在蘆州，但蘆州比較近一點，如果說他是在板橋，那這樣就不算了，是不是？"],["張副署長美美：主要第一個當然是自己一個人住，然後第二個就是他的子女沒有辦法就近協助。"],["李委員坤城：對，可是你們的範圍太大了，是要跨縣市嗎？"],["張副署長美美：如果跨轄的話，鄰近的部分，縣市政府可能會評估他的子女是不是能夠照顧他，如果不能關懷他，那他也可以跟我們提出來，我們也會列入在我們的獨老名冊上。"],["李委員坤城：我的意思是說，你們現在是用跨縣市？"],["張副署長美美：對。"],["李委員坤城：如果是在同縣市，但是不同區，那獨老人數應該會更多。"],["張副署長美美：戶籍裡面單獨一戶的人，就是剛剛提到的，其實那個是戶政的資料，這類人數是多的；可是各地方政府在做獨老的關懷訪視，第一個是他可以表達他有需要關懷，這個部分就是我們所謂的列冊，到去年6月大概是5萬6,000人，今年又增加了，大概有6萬人，我們目前的定義是這個樣子。"],["李委員坤城：我是討論定義啦，我是說你們現在的定義放得比較寬，就是說你是要跨縣市，是不是？比如說，長者在新北三重，而子女要跨到基隆、跨到臺北，然後家裡面只有長者一個人，這樣才算是獨老，我的意思是說，如果他是住三重，但是子女可能在板橋，這樣就不算？"],["張副署長美美：沒有，他也可以說他有需求，我們也會列入，有第三個條款，就是他認為他有需要，我們就會把他列進來。"],["李委員坤城：好。你們現在對於這種獨老的照顧，有沒有列在你們的長照3.0裡面？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我先做兩個回復，第一個就是說，你現在說的39萬跟我們的6萬中間相差28萬，我必須要承認，這個我們可能有低估，其實賴清德總統也非常關心這個問題，所以我們現在會有一個計畫，跟地方政府必須共同來做一次全國性的survey，然後把真正需要關心的人數提高。"],["李委員坤城：我覺得需要做一個調查。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯，這個部分也跟委員報告，我們已經跟內政部那邊開過幾次會了，這個部分的計畫最近會推出，這是第一個重點。","第二個重點就是說，跟委員報告，其實有些人雖然現在是獨老，可是也不見得就一定會需要受到照顧，因為有些長輩可能覺得live alone也可以，他自己就想要這樣，他也不想要受到人家的打擾，所以我們現在最重要的是有關懷需求者，有關懷需求的話，現在長照3.0會把他列入，整個列入的話，就是除了擴大目前的1966的部分之外，另外我們會加強剛剛說的獨老的訪視。"],["李委員坤城：獨老的訪視現在是各個縣市政府的社會局在做？"],["呂次長建德：對，是他們社會局。"],["李委員坤城：但是有一些都是民間自己團體在做，像一些獨老送餐，那些都是民間團體自己在做的。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，那一些裡面，有一些是他們自己在做，因為我在臺中當過社會局長，有很多事實上是我們社會局委託他們做，我們用委辦的方式，把名冊給他們之後，然後由他們來送餐。"],["李委員坤城：我是希望你們長照3.0把需要照顧的獨老列進去。"],["呂次長建德：OK。"],["李委員坤城：有時候老人家會覺得不需要你的照顧，但是實際上他可能有需要啊。"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["李委員坤城：所以不是他們說不需要你們照顧，你們就不用照顧，實際上老人家有時候可能因為愛面子或是怎麼樣，我覺得這個東西你們自己要去注意，除了他們主觀的意願之外，客觀的一些條件，你們也要去做評估。"],["呂次長建德：好的，OK。"],["李委員坤城：好不好？"],["呂次長建德：好。"],["李委員坤城：好，那今天就先這樣，謝謝。"],["呂次長建德：感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李委員，謝謝部長。","翁曉玲、翁曉玲，翁曉玲委員不在。","請廖偉翔委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳瑩","廖偉翔","陳培瑜","李坤城","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","劉書彬","劉建國","黃國昌","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲"],"page_start":163,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「長照2.0執行情形檢討及3.0未來規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長就「澳洲進口豬腳驗出含萊克多巴胺，如何加強肉品食安查驗，讓民眾\n放心」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00004"}}},{"id":"161115","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161115","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1f34f5673247327e3e0059966c803d0e9567847e18f9cb587555062629d9f47525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:26:05 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總裁好 王委員早剛才齁 我們陳宇峥委員代理那個召委主席之後 讓他坐回來他說 這個楊金龍總裁實在很不善於說謊他說只要你一涉及到說謊 就結結巴巴"},{"start":30.006,"end":31.027,"text":"包含在記者會還有包括剛才我們市民委員說有沒有楊金龍防線總裁竟然說有沒有澎南華防線所以總裁我覺得"},{"start":47.526,"end":68.244,"text":"我們還是應該要為所當為 言所當言總裁今天討論到國家主權基金我看到央行的報告裡面在最後的部分這個就重點了意思說央行對於成立主權基金是持正向態度但是"},{"start":69.145,"end":89.734,"text":"不能由外匯存底直接無償撥用所以這個是我們中央銀行的態度這個部分我是肯定的也希望我們總裁能夠守住央行防線主權基金當然不能由外匯存底直接的來撥用"},{"start":92.406,"end":97.829,"text":"最近我們面對美國的貿易戰經濟部長郭志輝說未來十年我們要投資美國兩千億美元我很擔心這個會不會跟主權基金會有任何的相關聯"},{"start":111.616,"end":127.271,"text":"然後呢這兩千億美元我們很多人都在問啊兩千億美元錢從哪裡來我們擔心有人動腦筋動到了我們的外匯存底的身上所以總裁在這邊可不可以給我們一個承諾第一"},{"start":127.851,"end":145.94,"text":"主權基金不要由外匯存底直接無償撥用這個是報告第二未來如果有兩千億美元要去投資美國解決有關於美國的貿易戰也不能動用外匯存底"},{"start":147.04,"end":175.649,"text":"總裁可不可以做出這樣的承諾那當然啊就是說那個主權基金我們就是說無償不能無償多用嘛那另外你就說是就是說要投資美國兩千億的這個嘛那當然就不可能啊不能夠直接拿外匯存你絕對是多的不然的話這個大家都隨便喊價嘛兩千億變三千億反正我們有五千八百億可以用另外總裁請問一下我們持有美國"},{"start":176.829,"end":195.363,"text":"美債到底是多少因為上一次在講就是說是佔的比重有多少我要這個數字金額多少有沒有三千億如果說是公債的話如果說我們純粹就公債的話沒有三千億"},{"start":205.082,"end":225.697,"text":"純粹就公債的話 美債的話那就又包 因為我們有一些的我們有一些的那個我們有一些的那個債券呢他不是公債的而是另外的 譬如說我舉一個例子我們也有持有BIS他的一個發行的債券那是以美元做計價的"},{"start":226.477,"end":231.981,"text":"那這個就不是這個就不是公債啦就不是美國的公債啊所以我就說如果嚴格來定義的話呢我們持有美國公債的話呢是應該就是低於三千億以下那大概多少低於三千億是多少這個我私下再說這是根據美國財政部的這個他的這個資料來源是到今年的年初我們是持有美國政府公債"},{"start":256.777,"end":264.563,"text":"前第11名金額2900億美元這個數字對的但是我跟委員報告我要澄清一點這個數據是包括中央銀行跟民間部門的所以也不是說這個2900多億美元我就中央銀行的部分來請教總裁因為其實現在很多人都在關心也就是擔心一件事情"},{"start":283.996,"end":308.412,"text":"就是所謂的海湖莊嚴協議這裡面提及到就是要讓外國投資美國債券的可以轉換成百年長期債券甚至是零利率所以我想請問中央銀行我現在不管民間的中央銀行所持有的美國政府公債"},{"start":309.993,"end":322.961,"text":"當到期的時候如果他把轉換成非常長期比如說百年長期債券尤其現在提出所謂的零利率債券央行會不會斷然拒絕我跟委員報告就是說這個議題呢我們基本上我們在我們在我們新聞稿裡面呢我們講了好幾次了沒有這個議題這個是就市場的傳聞這個是這個是他這個"},{"start":339.411,"end":342.832,"text":"當有這個議題的時候當美國提出來的時候我們會不會斷然拒絕把我們持有的美國債券轉換成這樣百年長期債券我跟委員就是說我答覆的因為委員這是假設性的議題假設性的議題我覺得我也不便在這邊回答這是第一點"},{"start":365.538,"end":369.96,"text":"我們又緊張了你跟卓榮泰院長一樣啊不不不我總覺得就是說我們會密切注意因為事實上所以我以前我才會很因為我就不佔據時間因為今天關心匯率還關心美債我們委員非常多"},{"start":393.089,"end":406.945,"text":"不過這樣的話我就來考慮來研究一下那也歡迎大家提供給我意見我們看怎麼樣用從法規的面向去阻止未來有可能的發生"},{"start":408.266,"end":409.086,"text":"謝謝委員對這個議題的關心所以總裁也很贊成"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1449,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時26分）謝謝主席，請央行楊總裁。"],["主席：請央行楊總裁。"],["王委員鴻薇：總裁好。"],["楊總裁金龍：王委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：剛才我們陳玉珍委員代理召委之後坐回來，他說「楊金龍總裁實在是很不善於說謊」，他說你只要一涉及到說謊，就結結巴巴，包含在記者會，也包括剛才林思銘委員說「有沒有楊金龍防線？」，總裁竟然說「有沒有彭『南淮』防線？」所以總裁，我覺得我們還是應該要為所當為、嚴所當嚴。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：總裁，今天討論的是「國家主權基金」，我有看到央行的報告，在報告最後的部分，這個就是重點了，意思是說，央行對於成立主權基金是持正向的態度，但是不能由外匯存底直接無償撥用，所以這是中央銀行的態度？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：這部分我是肯定的，也希望我們總裁能夠守住央行防線，主權基金當然不能由外匯存底直接撥用。最近我們面對美國的貿易戰，經濟部長郭智輝說：「未來10年我們要投資美國2,000億美元」，我很擔心，這個會不會跟主權基金有任何的相關聯？然後很多人都在問，這2,000億美元的錢要從哪裡來？我們擔心有人動腦筋，動到了我們的外匯存底上，所以總裁在這邊可不可以給我們一個承諾？第一，主權基金不要由外匯存底直接無償撥用，這個是報告，白紙黑字。第二，如果未來要用2,000億美元去投資美國、解決美國有關的貿易戰，也不能動用外匯存底，總裁可不可以做出這樣的承諾？"],["楊總裁金龍：那當然，主權基金不能由外匯存底無償撥用。另外，你又說，投資美國的這個2,000億美元不能動用外匯存底，當然，這是不可能的。"],["王委員鴻薇：不能夠直接拿我們的外匯存底。"],["楊總裁金龍：這絕對不會。"],["王委員鴻薇：不然大家都隨便喊價，2,000億變3,000億，反正我們有5,800億可以用。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外，總裁，請問一下，到底我們持有多少的美債？"],["楊總裁金龍：上一次有問過美債的占比是多少。"],["王委員鴻薇：我要數字，金額是多少？有沒有3,000億？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果純粹就公債的話，沒有3,000億。"],["王委員鴻薇：不止公債，還有美債。"],["楊總裁金龍：美債的話，因為我們還有一些債券，它不是公債，而是另外的，我舉一個例子，我們也持有BIS所發行的債券，它是以美元計價，但是這個就不是美國的公債，所以我才會說，如果嚴格地定義我們所持有的美國公債的話，應該是低於3,000億以下。"],["王委員鴻薇：那大概是多少？低於3,000億是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我私下再說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：這個資料來源是美國財政部，到今年年初，我們是持有美國政府公債的第11名，金額是2,900億美元，這個數字是對的？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，正確。"],["楊總裁金龍：但是我要跟委員報告，我要澄清一點，這個數據包含中央銀行跟民間部門的，所以這二千九百多億美元不都是我們的。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那我就僅針對中央銀行的部分來請教總裁，其實現在很多人都在關心和擔心一件事情，就是所謂的「海湖莊園協議」裡面提及，要讓外國投資的美國債券可以轉換成百年長期債券，甚至是零利率，所以我想要請問中央銀行，我先不管民間的，當中央銀行所持有的美國政府公債到期的時候，如果它要求我們要把它轉換成非常長期，比如說百年長期債券，尤其是現在提出來的「零利率」債券，央行會不會斷然拒絕？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，基本上，這個議題我們已經在我們的新聞稿裡面講過好幾次了，我們沒有這個議題，這個是市場的傳聞，這是……"],["王委員鴻薇：當美國提出這個議題時，我們會不會斷然拒絕要把我們所持有的美國債券轉換成百年長期債券或零利率債券？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為委員說的這個是假設性的議題，所以我不便在這裡回答，這是第一點。第二點，針對……"],["王委員鴻薇：哦！那這樣我們又緊張了，你跟卓榮泰院長一樣，未來什麼事情都有可能會發生。"],["楊總裁金龍：不、不、不，我們會密切注意，事實上，所以我以前才會……"],["王委員鴻薇：總裁，我就不佔據時間了，因為今天關心匯率和美債的委員非常多，不過這樣我就要考慮和研究一下，也歡迎大家提供我意見，我們看要怎麼樣從法規面來阻止未來有可能的發生，好不好？對不對？這個很重要，雖然現在沒有發生。"],["楊總裁金龍：我只能說謝謝委員對這個議題的關心。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以總裁也很贊成嘛！謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：我是謝謝委員的關心。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員的質詢。","下一位請謝龍介委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","王世堅","林思銘","涂權吉","王鴻薇","謝龍介","陳玉珍","陳冠廷","林楚茵","翁曉玲"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、國家發展委員會\n劉主任委員鏡清、勞動部洪部長申翰、銓敘部施部長能傑就「我國如果要設立國家主權基金，中\n央銀行與政府相關基金（如四大基金等）所扮演的角色為何？」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00006"}}},{"id":"161114","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161114","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c16677cb511c3a7859ebbe9609d4ca0983567847e18f9cb5877e16859af7a544885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"12:20:24 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沒碰到跟你有關的所以這個補助是3.3億但是看起來已經實行兩年效果是不髒的"},{"start":207.369,"end":222.389,"text":"不但這些大貨車 大客車車貨還不斷地成長百分之十幾那這代表問題在哪邊到底我們警察機關執行不力或者我們的政策有問題部長 你知道這個問題嗎"},{"start":223.91,"end":241.44,"text":"報告委員這個部分應該是一個科研的計畫科技研究的一個計畫那實際上落實了多少這個我們應該也還沒有完全去落實到這一點但是我們有想辦法要克服這個問題所以我們在監理面的部分監理的層面我們有努力包含說"},{"start":242.901,"end":255.696,"text":"比較高造勢的這個高違規的這個駕駛我們有調訓的工作會把他調回來再做訓練那目前我們在訓練完之後他違規的機率有降了蠻多的啦有86%但是車禍比還是提升所以這個還是要加強"},{"start":259.58,"end":274.499,"text":"是好啦這個最主要是這樣啦那個主動警系統的政策當然問題很多啦就像使用者的不佳啦或者越專業糟糕這類的東西啊特別施掌"},{"start":275.04,"end":301.777,"text":"跟部長可能要了解還有這裡面那裡面是操作非常困難所以陳局長可能也要去了解一下所以駕駛人接受率是蠻低的那我把這個問題提出來就是要希望我們部裡面特別要去注意這些那當然因為交通的東西並非一朝一夕就可以馬上改變但是有問題"},{"start":303.058,"end":324.865,"text":"要去追蹤要去改進我想政府最大的存在的目的就是有問題解決問題這是很重要所以既然有這個政策但是效果不佳是事實車禍也不斷在其身所以在這個部分要拜託部長責成師長他們要特別去留意這些"},{"start":327.183,"end":338.951,"text":"錢開下去好過又不好這樣就換效果所以這個我要特別提醒那另外一個我還要再提醒就是在整個交通部這個部分也就是過勞駕駛的問題"},{"start":342.193,"end":359.408,"text":"尤其是刻印的部分我要拜託我們主管師長要特別去針對這個問題因為所有車禍的花生過勞駕駛是非常嚴重的比例非常之高的所以我希望師長"},{"start":362.213,"end":381.686,"text":"我常講部長是管政策但是督導也是屬於你所以我把這個問題點出來我希望部長也要特別去留意這些好不好好 另外一個就是自行車也就是單車事故三年來都增加這個問題比較嚴重的當然因為包括戴安全帽"},{"start":388.759,"end":410.65,"text":"包括未成年這是非常之多的非常之多所以我還是要拜託這是一個政策既然單車自行車無法去嚇阻跟禁掉但是你最起碼安全要去考慮所以這個包括未成年還有有沒有必要就帶"},{"start":411.73,"end":426.198,"text":"在這種自行車的安全帽視同機車的安全帽這個安全所以我記得當初大家在推機車安全帽的時候我就極力支持 為什麼可以從車後發生死亡腦震盪"},{"start":430.85,"end":450.085,"text":"這個事件以後那大大降低啊有帶總比沒帶好啊所以在這個車子當然年輕人啊小孩子他騎得蠻快的所以這個部分我也要拜託有沒有研究不管是黃師長也好林師長也好研究哪一個法規"},{"start":451.266,"end":470.553,"text":"可以在這個部分去加強這樣的話會更完整部長你的看法是 報告委員有佩戴安全帽當然相對會更安全那不過這件事因為牽涉到的層面其實蠻廣的我們來做研議以外也要去收攏一下大概社會大家對這件事情的共識跟想法"},{"start":470.973,"end":495.739,"text":"好 所以要特別拜託一個是大貨車 既然補助那要嘛就通通補助就全部要貫徹要嘛 你說實在的就沒有必要再花這種補助那另外一個就那個 自行車的問題少年的問題 戴帽的問題要不要推展到這裡我希望拜託我們去做一個專案研究好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1056,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（12時20分）謝謝主席，請交通部陳部長、黃運貴司長、林福山司長，還有警政署陳組長。"],["主席：請部長、黃司長、林司長和陳組長。"],["林委員國成：部長辛苦了。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員國成：其實本席對交通部一向持支持態度，但是該講的我還是會講。請教一下，上次因為我當主席，所以無法親自質詢，但是我有書面質詢，我比較在乎的是行人專用時相這個政策，部長私底下也跟我說你們有開檢討會。我看過全國的縣市政府，確實是良莠不齊，有些做得很積極，有些是不積極。部長私下跟我說要檢討，到底結論如何？"],["陳部長世凱：我們不但有檢討，昨天也特別針對這件事，在道安記者會上做了說明，行人早開時相跟行人專用時相一直都是我們很重要的政策跟努力方向，所以我們現在有設定一個新目標，希望在114年，行人專用時相能夠做到198處。行人早開時相的部分，我們也會有一個1,558的目標值希望能夠完成，總共加起來就一千七百多處，我們會做行人早開跟行人專用時相。"],["林委員國成：特別提醒部長跟司長，當然六都較為妥當，其他縣市有必要，會是在重點的地方，但六都還是要推，這個我要特別拜託，因為我看臺北市推得很認真，有學校的地方確實是有效的。"],["陳部長世凱：這個效果很好，民眾真的很在乎。"],["林委員國成：不但不塞車，行人跟車輛也互相禮讓，交通秩序確實是好的，行的安全也受到保障，所以要拜託部長督促一下。"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題。"],["林委員國成：另外一個我還是要談，我很關心的就是大型車輛車禍比非常高，這個數據本會其他委員也有點出問題。特別提醒部長，我們從111年到現在連續三年編列預算3.3億元，要去做這些大貨車的視野補助、主動預告補助等計畫。陳局長，不好意思，沒點到你，這跟你有關，這個補助是3.3億元，已經實行兩年，但看起來效果不彰，大貨車、大客車車禍率還成長百分之十幾，問題在哪？是警察機關執行不力，還是我們的政策有問題？部長知道這個問題嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這部分應該是一個科技研究的計畫，實際上落實了多少，這個我們應該也還沒完全落實，但是我們有想辦法要克服這個問題。所以我們在監理的層面有努力，包含較高肇事、高違規的駕駛，我們有做調訓的工作，會把他調回來再訓練。目前訓練完之後，違規的機率有降滿多的，有86%的比例改善。"],["林委員國成：但是車禍比還是提升了。"],["陳部長世凱：所以這個還是要加強。"],["林委員國成：最主要是主動預警系統的政策，當然問題很多，像使用者反饋不佳或越裝越糟糕這類的問題，司長跟部長可能要了解。還有，駕駛抱怨操作非常困難，所以陳局長可能也要去了解一下，駕駛人的接受率滿低的。我把這個問題提出來，就是希望我們部裡特別要去注意這些。當然交通的東西並非一朝一夕就可以馬上改變，但是有問題要去追蹤、要去改進，我想政府最大的存在目的，就是有問題解決問題，這很重要。既然有這個政策，但效果不佳是事實，車禍比也不斷在提升，所以這個部分要拜託部長，責成司長他們特別去留意這些，不要錢花下去又沒效果，這樣就是反效果，這點我要特別提醒部長。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員國成：我還要再提醒過勞駕駛的問題，尤其是客運的部分，主管司長要特別針對這個問題，因為所有車禍的發生，過勞駕駛是非常嚴重的，比例非常高。我常講部長是管政策，但是督導也是你，所以我把這個問題點出來，希望部長也要特別去留意這些，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員國成：另外一個是自行車的部分，單車事故三年來都增加，這個問題比較嚴重，當然包括不戴安全帽、未成年騎行非常之多。所以我還是要拜託部長，這是一個政策，既然無法嚇阻跟禁止，最起碼要考慮安全問題，包括未成年，以及有沒有必要戴自行車的安全帽，視同機車安全帽。我記得當初大家在推機車安全帽的時候，我就極力支持，為什麼？因為車禍發生死亡跟腦震盪的事件就大大降低啊！有戴總比沒戴好啊！而且年輕人、小孩子都騎滿快的，這部分有沒有研究？不管是黃司長或林司長也好，研究哪一個法規可以在這個部分去加強，這樣的話會更完整。部長你的看法？"],["陳部長世凱：有佩戴安全帽當然相對會更安全，不過這件事因為牽涉到的層面其實滿廣的，我們研議以外也要去收攏一下社會大眾對這件事的共識跟想法。"],["林委員國成：所以要特別拜託，一個是大貨車既然補助，要麼就統統補助，全部要貫徹，不然就沒必要再花這種補助。另外一個是自行車的問題、少年的問題、戴帽的問題，要不要推展到這裡，希望你們去做一個專案研究好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員國成：謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們請林月琴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":162,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-10","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","張啓楷","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","林俊憲","陳雪生","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","黃捷","林國成","林月琴","張雅琳","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","涂權吉","蘇清泉","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部及教育部就「人本交通」及「交通安全」施行狀況進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計\n2案","agenda_id":"1144701_00003"}}},{"id":"161113","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161113","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1517b8aeb3f85eabfebbe9609d4ca0983567847e18f9cb58797110b78856a118c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"12:13:04 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謝謝主席 我們請部長請部長"},{"start":20.351,"end":45.316,"text":"好 部長好 昨天高雄的一件大事你們到高雄考察這個我們的航廈嘛那也準備把第一期的計畫準備要端出來了還有這個停車場也動工了那當然是很感謝對我們高雄的照顧但是我還是想要在這邊再提一下關於新的國際機場的事這個我們跟許志傑召委也都非常的積極的在爭取那其實我們陳其邁市長也提了非常多次"},{"start":45.916,"end":56.211,"text":"那上一次總質詢的時候我們部長其實也有提到說會準備來進行可行性的相關評估那我不知道說有沒有在準備了期程是什麼"},{"start":57.042,"end":79.32,"text":"委員您所指的是24小時的機場嗎沒錯24小時的機場其實過去交通部已經做過12次的研究那地方也非常殷切的需求沒錯希望能夠有24小時的機場所以我們現在交通部也內部也開始請民航局再繼續再做盤點跟研究看有沒有哪一個地方是適合的那目前已經開始在做這個這方面的研討"},{"start":80.319,"end":97.979,"text":"好 那我的意思是說那我們這個具體的可行性的評估是有沒有準備要用一個計畫來進行還是說就是你們內部自己的一個討論而已呢報告委員 我們過去做了12次啦我們最近會來啟動新的一次會來啟動新的一次可行性研究"},{"start":98.399,"end":109.912,"text":"好 謝謝那我就是希望至少要有一個具體的可行性研究如果真的要往下走的話這件事情非常重要那因為其實還是很多人在說高雄真的有需要一個新機場嗎"},{"start":111.741,"end":127.351,"text":"部長認為有需要嗎報告委員我目前看高雄的那個運量一直是在上升的所以我們也才會做這個機場的更新的整建第一期跟第二期的更新總共投入了881我們希望把運量能夠拉到1650萬的這個運量"},{"start":130.433,"end":149.077,"text":"那我們就是因為看到這個需求有在所以才會做這件事那如果長期來看的話確實是有需要因為24小時的機場它的好處是對於一些越洋的航班來說會比較方便有時候它會用到宵禁的時間如果你沒有24小時的機場越洋的航班飛過來剛好是宵禁的時間它就會受到限制"},{"start":150.6,"end":158.829,"text":"謝謝所以呢高雄有沒有需要一個24小時的新機場有需要非常有需要那我還是再簡單補充是因為其實現在的空貨運的貨的貨量非常需求非常大尤其是在我們南部因為我們現在南科的"},{"start":167.138,"end":184.355,"text":"這個產值已經超越主科了然後再加上現在其實我們這邊非常重要的是因為桃園的機場已經飽和了就是所以我們才一直說接下來是不是應該看一下南部這邊的需求然後再加上你看往前看50年就是真的有這個需求"},{"start":185.416,"end":213.669,"text":"那另外還有另外一件事情就是第五航權因為其實我們現在高雄的國際機場也有努力的在爭取這件事情那其實最近包括有一個美聯航的高雄到成田對 那我覺得這是一個好的例子那接下來這個第五航權的部分也希望我們部長然後請我們民航軍再多加的協助好 這個我們來努力好 那再來進到這個人本交通的部分我不知道說部長知不知道我們現在台灣的停讓率是多少"},{"start":214.429,"end":226.845,"text":"也就是說你看到無號誌的人行穿越道的時候會停下來這樣的停讓率是看到有人還是看到沒人的時候"},{"start":227.645,"end":248.894,"text":"去看到有行人的時候市長這邊應該有數字如果按照目前調查看個縣市比如如果在無號字化入口據我們先前調查有些甚至達到100%沒有停讓行人不過大部分是在八九成我還想說我以為你要說百分之百有停讓停讓率百分之百我想說怎麼可能"},{"start":250.473,"end":268.761,"text":"百分之百沒有停讓行人無耗制化的路口百分之百沒有停讓行人哇 這個數據聽起來多麼恐怖啊我不是要講就連在日本喔無耗制的行人穿越道的停讓率也只有五成也就是說我們光是要達到五成都還要有一點"},{"start":269.881,"end":294.278,"text":"困難那這個就是我們要努力的所以還是希望我們可以透過更多的交通工程的設計看是不是可以讓大家自動的有意識必須要停下來這件事情不然這個停讓率光是你看日本我們以為他們看到行人一定會自動停下來但其實他們計算出來的數據也是只有五成那剛剛其實請問這位是"},{"start":297.76,"end":315.113,"text":"師長師長就說了我是百分之百不會停下來有一些路口啦有一些路口這個很慘啦那這個部分委員所提醒的就是說工程面的部分是改善了一方面那更重要的其實是駕駛人的習慣啦所以駕駛人的習慣跟教育這才是更重要的"},{"start":315.413,"end":329.787,"text":"當然啦當然是雙向進行那當然所以在這邊我也想要再補充一個小的意見就是說我們現在看到很多交通事故啊他的原因可能會寫說是因為可能什麼行人沒有"},{"start":330.507,"end":356.99,"text":"行人沒有注意車前的狀況或者是說駕駛人沒有注意道路的狀況左右來車所以造成了車禍的原因但事實上很多原因是因為道路的設計不良就例如說我們一些行人的設施不足甚至是路口的窄幅等等的這些如果交通工程改善了或許能夠去讓去他們不會有這些視線的死角"},{"start":357.791,"end":371.216,"text":"所以我是在想說接下來我們在盤點這些交通事故的原因的時候有沒有機會把交通設計不良放進去這個一直都有一直都有可是很常我們在調地方的車禍的原因"},{"start":373.337,"end":391.351,"text":"都會寫說沒有注意來車然後行人或者是駕駛人因為他們自己沒有注意但事實上很多他們視線不良並不是他們自己的我們每次在肇事之後的那個調查都會把那個道路設計也放入其中一個檢討的項目所以這個部分我們會持續滾動來處理"},{"start":392.472,"end":414.543,"text":"好這個真的要拜託那我認為不管怎麼樣我們交通部能做的就是把交通工程的設計做得更好這才是人本交通的根本好這個真的要拜託部長那拜託機場我們跟張偉都超級關心的對不對所以真的要拜託我們希望高雄的新的機場有一些新的進度可行性評估報告再拜託部長好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1016,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（12時13分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：好。部長好。昨天高雄的一件大事，你們到高雄考察航廈，也準備把第一期的計畫端出來，停車場也動工了。我當然很感謝交通部對我們高雄的照顧，但是我還是想要在這邊再提一下關於新的國際機場的事。我們跟許智傑召委也都非常積極地在爭取，其實我們陳其邁市長也提了非常多次，上一次總質詢的時候，部長也有提到會準備進行可行性評估，我不知道有沒有在準備？期程是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：委員，您所指的是24小時的機場嗎？"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["陳部長世凱：24小時的機場其實過去交通部已經做過12次研究了，地方也非常殷切地需求，希望能夠有24小時的機場，所以我們現在交通部內部也開始請民航局再繼續盤點跟研究，看有沒有哪一個地方是適合的，目前已經開始在做這方面的研討。"],["黃委員捷：好。我的意思是說，這個具體的可行性評估有沒有準備要用一個計畫來進行？還是說，就是你們內部自己的一個討論而已呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們過去做了12次，我們最近會啟動一次新的可行性研究。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。我就是希望至少要有一個具體的可行性研究，如果真的要往下走的話，這件事情非常重要。還是有很多人在說，高雄真的需要一個新機場嗎？部長，你認為有需要嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我目前看高雄的運量是一直在上升的，所以我們才會做機場的更新和整建，第一期跟第二期的更新總共投入了880億，我們希望能夠把運量拉到1,650萬，我們就是因為看到有這個需求在，所以才會做這件事。如果長期來看的話，確實是有需要，因為24小時機場的好處是對於一些越洋的航班來說會比較方便，有時候會用到宵禁的時間，如果沒有24小時的機場，越洋的航班飛過來，剛好是宵禁的時間，就會受到限制。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝。高雄有沒有需要一個24小時的新機場？有需要，非常有需要。我還是再簡單補充，因為現在的空運貨運量需求非常大，尤其是在我們南部，現在南科的產值已經超越竹科了，再加上非常重要的是，因為桃園的機場已經飽和，所以我們才一直說接下來是不是應該看一下南部這邊的需求，再加上往前看50年，就是真的有這個需求。另外一件事情就是第五航權，現在高雄國際機場也有努力在爭取這件事情，最近有一個新航線是美聯航的高雄到成田。"],["陳部長世凱：7月會飛。"],["黃委員捷：對。我覺得這是一個好的例子。接下來第五航權的部分，也希望部長請民航局再多加協助。"],["陳部長世凱：這個我們來努力。"],["黃委員捷：好，再來進到人本交通的部分，部長，你知不知道現在臺灣的停讓率是多少？也就是說，駕車時看到無號誌的人行穿越道會停下來這樣的停讓率。"],["陳部長世凱：是看到有人還是看到沒人的時候？"],["黃委員捷：看到有行人的時候。"],["陳部長世凱：好，司長這邊應該有數字。"],["黃司長運貴：跟委員報告，按照目前的調查看各縣市，如果在無號誌的入口，據我們先前調查，有些甚至達到100%沒有停讓行人，不過大部分是八、九成。"],["黃委員捷：我以為你要說百分之百有停讓，停讓率百分之百，我還想說怎麼可能，竟是百分之百沒有停讓行人！"],["黃司長運貴：對，無號誌化的路口。"],["陳部長世凱：無號誌化的路口。"],["黃委員捷：百分之百沒有停讓行人，哇！這個數字聽起來有多麼恐怖啊！我必須要講，就連在日本，無號誌的行人穿越道停讓率也只有五成。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員捷：也就是說，我們光是要達到五成都還有一點困難，這個就是我們要努力的，所以還是希望我們可以透過更多交通工程的設計，看是不是可以讓大家自動地有意識必須要停下來這件事情，不然這個停讓率，你看日本，我們以為他們的駕駛看到行人一定會自動停下來，但其實他們計算出來的數據也是只有五成。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員捷：剛剛司長就說了，在臺灣是百分之百不會停下來。"],["陳部長世凱：有一些路口啦，有一些路口在沒有號誌的情況下。"],["黃委員捷：這個很慘啊！"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分委員提醒的就是，工程面的部分是改善的一方面，更重要的其實是駕駛人的習慣，所以駕駛人的習慣跟教育才是更重要的，我們會來加強。"],["黃委員捷：當然是雙向進行。在這邊我也想要再補充一個小的意見，我們現在看到很多交通事故，原因可能會寫是因為行人沒有注意車前的狀況，或者是說駕駛人沒有注意道路的狀況和左右來車，所以造成了車禍，但事實上很多原因是因為道路的設計不良，例如一些行人的設施不足，甚至是路口的窄幅等等。如果交通工程改善了，或許能夠讓他們不會有這些視線的死角。所以我是在想，接下來我們在盤點這些交通事故原因的時候，有沒有機會把交通設計不良放進去？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個一直都有。我們去年針對799處……"],["黃委員捷：一直都有？可是我們在調地方的車禍原因，都會寫「沒有注意來車」，然後說是因為行人或駕駛人自己沒有注意，但事實上很多他們視線不良的情況，並不是他們自己造成的。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們每次在肇事之後的調查，都會把道路設計也放入其中一個檢討的項目，所以這個部分我們會持續滾動處理。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個真的要拜託。我認為不管怎麼樣，交通部能做的就是把交通工程的設計做得更好，這才是人本交通的根本。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個真的要拜託部長。我們跟召委都超級關心機場，對不對？所以真的要拜託，我們希望高雄的新機場有一些新的進度，可行性評估報告再拜託部長，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝部長，我們希望儘速啦！儘速有可行性報告給我們。","現在請林國成召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":162,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-10","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","張啓楷","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","林俊憲","陳雪生","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","黃捷","林國成","林月琴","張雅琳","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","涂權吉","蘇清泉","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部及教育部就「人本交通」及「交通安全」施行狀況進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計\n2案","agenda_id":"1144701_00003"}}},{"id":"161112","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161112","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c11582264c9260ff53ebbe9609d4ca0983567847e18f9cb5879616e932440b99205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"12:06:37 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有請陳部長陳部長"},{"start":12.242,"end":31.592,"text":"本席曾經向你們交通部提出書面質詢跟臨時提案要求交通部要盤點全國各路段的合理速限那根據公路局探討就是有一本資料就是探討國內外道路速限訂立原則這個成果報告"},{"start":32.412,"end":48.839,"text":"那這份資料其實有許多可以參考的資料可以來做研究那我想我今天就透過這個資料來跟您探討就是科學化的速限調整跟檢討那我想成果報告裡面有指出"},{"start":49.659,"end":78.445,"text":"因為台灣的地形多變化然後道路的形態也很多元那有市區啊 郊區啊 山區啊高快速道路等等那所以如果全面統一調整的話那可能反而會造成很多的路段不適用可是報告有說明喔 他說美國 歐洲 日本他們的國家都強調所謂的操作速率速線 速率 操作速率就所謂的八五百分位速率"},{"start":80.319,"end":98.49,"text":"部長 你剛剛講到85%的速率的意思我不知道 請局長85%的速率 它是說在道路上面行駛的車輛大概就85%的車輛大概用就是說那樣子的一個速度低於85% 低於這個速限的速度那這個速限就適合"},{"start":104.434,"end":116.329,"text":"對 這個是學理上面有這樣子的規範那同時也根據道路功能 路形 事故紀錄 周邊環境做一些細 精細的分級 然後定期來檢討速限"},{"start":118.732,"end":136.697,"text":"所以最後報告是建議說我國應該要針對速限明顯與實際操作速率的落差太大還有事故率偏高還有興建跟改善道路這些重點的路段我們要進行專案的檢討跟"},{"start":138.237,"end":162.675,"text":"跟調整所以想要請教部長的是說目前我們針對所謂的這些科學化數據化的這種檢討特定道路的速限我們有沒有什麼樣的規劃跟安排因為既然做出這個報告有沒有根據這個報告做一些執行的規劃跟安排另外就是說我國的道路那麼多樣的樣態那是不是有要細緻化去分級檢討的必要 部長"},{"start":163.315,"end":186.405,"text":"我們依據剛剛的研究的結果我們自己所管轄的省道我們全部都有檢視過一遍省道的部分我們有檢視過一遍但是縣市政府他們的檢視可能要透過他們自己的方法下去做那這個部分我們可以把資料提供給縣市政府請縣市政府依據這個原則這個研究的結果也依據我們現在省道的這個檢視的經驗也下去做"},{"start":187.225,"end":196.464,"text":"那其實 對 那你們要給縣市政府指引啊或者說你們要發函去給他們讓他們有這樣的指引可以做這個改善的這個依據"},{"start":198.535,"end":226.959,"text":"這是一個研究的結果還沒有到指引的程度因為當初其實就是大概在省道上面大概大家對於速限上面也有一些就是說希望檢討所以我們特別做了一個研究然後大概有一些原則那所以透過這原則其實我們自己公務局所主管的所有的省道我們自己做了一些檢討那有一些可以放寬速限的我們都放寬了那相關的這個部分的話我想基本上其實各地方政府他們的交通單位跟"},{"start":227.399,"end":228.661,"text":"所以這個稱呼報告都會提供給地方政府"},{"start":240.573,"end":264.411,"text":"對 我們會提供給地方政府因為我們台灣現行的一些道路這個速限的制度我們是所謂的設計速率那就是說它其實我們當然有它的歷史背景跟它的基礎可是隨著我們車輛的性能越來越好啊然後道路的設計越來越進步還有國際標準的演進我們部分的路段如果速限還沒有檢討的話確實是造成很多行人的不便"},{"start":265.191,"end":285.537,"text":"所以我覺得檢討確實是很必要那我覺得其實可以優先來針對一些像說速限跟實際車流明顯不符的路段或者是說一些事故的熱點我想這些真的要好好的因為人民的感受每天在開車那有的確實速限他就是設的太低"},{"start":286.337,"end":307.274,"text":"那你動不動就變成超速那也造成很多民眾的困擾那確實這個路段可能他或許他後面拓寬了可是他出現並沒有去做調整所以這個很多的零民眾都有問題所以是不是企業請中央跟地方政府交通局去做比較好的溝通那讓全國都可以感受到"},{"start":308.635,"end":335.811,"text":"是不會中央政府因為他們搞不清楚這個地方的這個所謂的這個市道啦縣道是所謂的那個地方政府所訂定的速限所以這部分大部分民眾遇到的道路都是地方政府啦除了省道跟國道以外當然可是他們我覺得他們不是那麼理解速限的訂定是地方政府訂定的他們認為這個可能是中央政府因為他們我接收到的訊息都是這樣所以這部分再請"},{"start":337.092,"end":351.371,"text":"我們這個資料會提供給各個地方政府讓他們去做參考那可不可以一個月內就是說我們做一些全面啟動各類型的速限的檢討因為你們說你們所管轄的速限我們的已經檢討完畢而且修正完畢了全部檢討完畢"},{"start":352.672,"end":374.63,"text":"那可不可以給我你們檢討完畢的報告上次我們這個報告做完以後我們自己就做了省道的檢討那我想地方道路因為有縣道、市道、鄉道、區道那這些部分的話我想就把我們的相關的研究程度給他好 你們把你們檢討的報告給我好不好就所謂根據科學化、數據化的報告是是是OK 好 謝謝謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":981,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（12時6分）謝謝主席。有請陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長好。本席曾經向你們交通部提出書面質詢跟臨時提案，要求交通部盤點全國各路段的合理速限。公路局有一本資料，是探討國內外道路速限訂定原則的成果報告，這份資料其實有許多可以參考的資料，可以來做研究，我今天就透過這個資料，跟您探討科學化的速限調整跟檢討。成果報告裡面指出，因為臺灣的地形多變化，然後道路的型態也很多元，有市區、郊區、山區、高快速道路等等，所以如果全面統一調整的話，可能反而會造成很多路段不適用。可是報告中有說明，美國、歐洲、日本等國都強調操作速率，就是所謂的第85百分位速率部長，你知道第85百分位速率的意思嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我不知道。請局長。"],["陳局長文瑞：是。第85百分位速率是說，在道路上面行駛的車輛，大概有85%的車輛用那樣子的速率……"],["林委員宜瑾：有85%低於這個速限的速度，那這個速限就適合。"],["陳局長文瑞：對。這個是學理上面有這樣子的說法。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。同時也根據道路功能、路形、事故紀錄、周邊環境做一些精細的分級，定期檢討速限，所以最後報告建議，我國應該要針對速限明顯與實際操作速率的落差太大，還有事故率偏高、興建跟改善道路等，這些重點的路段，進行專案的檢討跟調整。所以想要請教部長的是，目前我們針對這些科學化、數據化檢討特定道路的速限，有沒有什麼樣的規劃跟安排？既然做出這個報告，有沒有根據這個報告做一些執行的規劃跟安排？另外，我國的道路那麼多的樣態，是不是有細緻化分級檢討的必要？部長。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，依據剛剛的研究結果，我們自己管轄的省道全部都有檢視過一遍，但是縣市政府的檢視可能要透過他們自己的方法下去做。這個部分我們可以把資料提供給縣市政府，請縣市政府依據這個原則、這個研究結果，也依據我們現在省道檢視的經驗下去做。"],["林委員宜瑾：對。那你們要給縣市政府指引，或者是你們要發函給他們，讓他們有這樣的指引可以作為改善的依據。"],["陳部長世凱：這是一個研究的結果，還沒有到指引的程度。"],["陳局長文瑞：對，因為當初其實就是在省道上面，大家對於速限也有一些希望檢討的地方，所以我們特別做了一個研究，然後有一些原則，透過這些原則，其實我們公路局針對主管的所有省道，我們自己做了一些檢討，有一些可以放寬速限的，我們都放寬了。相關的部分，基本上各地方政府的交通單位跟工務單位，對於相關的原則其實是熟悉的，如果有更新的結果，我們會提供給他們。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，所以這個成果報告都會提供給地方政府。"],["陳部長世凱：對。我們提供給地方政府。"],["林委員宜瑾：我們臺灣現行的一些道路速限的制度，是所謂的設計速率，當然有它的歷史背景跟它的基礎，可是隨著車輛的性能越來越好，道路的設計越來越進步，還有國際標準的演進，部分路段的速限如果還沒有檢討的話，確實造成很多行人的不便，所以我覺得檢討確實是很必要的。我覺得其實可以優先針對速限跟實際車流明顯不符的路段或一些事故的熱點，這些真的要好好的設計，因為人民的感受是，每天在開車時，有的道路速限就是設得太低，開車動不動就變成超速，造成很多民眾的困擾。這個路段或許後面拓寬了，可是速限並沒有調整，這些林林總總的問題，也請中央跟地方政府交通局去做比較好的溝通，讓全國都可以感受到，因為民眾罵都是罵中央政府，他們搞不清楚地方的市道、縣道的速限是地方政府所定的。"],["陳部長世凱：大部分民眾遇到的道路都是地方政府管轄的，除了省道跟國道以外，都是地方政府管的。"],["林委員宜瑾：當然，可是我覺得他們不是那麼理解速限是地方政府訂定的，他們認為可能是中央政府訂定的，我接收到的訊息都是這樣。"],["陳部長世凱：是啊。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以這部分再請部長關注。"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個資料我會提供給各地方政府，讓他們參考。"],["林委員宜瑾：可不可以一個月內，做一些全面啟動各類型速限的檢討？因為你們說你們管轄的速限……"],["陳部長世凱：我們已經檢討完畢，而且修正完畢了。"],["林委員宜瑾：全部檢討完畢？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員宜瑾：那他可不可以給我你們檢討完畢的報告？"],["陳局長文瑞：可以，上次這個報告做完以後，我們自己就做了省道的檢討。地方道路因為有縣道、市道、鄉道、區道，這些部分的話，我就把我們相關的研究成果給他們。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，你們把你們檢討的報告給我，好不好？"],["陳局長文瑞：好。"],["林委員宜瑾：就是根據科學化、數據化的報告。"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK。好，謝謝。謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（許委員智傑）：好，謝謝。我們請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":162,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-10","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","張啓楷","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","林俊憲","陳雪生","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","黃捷","林國成","林月琴","張雅琳","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","涂權吉","蘇清泉","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部及教育部就「人本交通」及「交通安全」施行狀況進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計\n2案","agenda_id":"1144701_00003"}}},{"id":"161111","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161111","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1ec6b0c84c0aa9198ebbe9609d4ca0983567847e18f9cb5879616e932440b99205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:53:00 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今天一個小問題先提最近有很多的這個依據我們道路交通安全規則102條的規定那個如果說我們在浩之花的路口有交通指揮人員在指揮的時候那"},{"start":26.753,"end":42.034,"text":"這個指揮人員的指示優於號誌這是我們道安交通規則102條的明文規定那現在實務上會有很多民眾檢舉或者是科技執法的一些案件就是透過警方在舉發"},{"start":43.075,"end":58.846,"text":"那就會變成說很多民眾都說我會這樣子行使是依據這個警察同仁或者是義交的指揮才做出違反號誌的一些駕駛行為但是被民眾檢舉的時候可能民眾檢舉領域像沒有錄到這個指揮人員"},{"start":62.048,"end":79.287,"text":"的指揮或者是我們科技執法沒有拍到這個指揮人員的情況下那這個違規的案件我們警察同仁就會舉發但是我們民眾可能他的行車紀錄器過了什麼他沒有辦法去舉證那這樣子的情況下就會變成說一些駕駛人"},{"start":81.429,"end":91.774,"text":"駕駛人的權益受損嘛 因為他是依照指揮 交通指揮人員去指揮那關於這一點啦 我想這是很明確的是我們必須要幫這些駕駛人他的權益去拼犯的部分 我覺得這也沒什麼好討論啦那後續是不是請我們這兩邊喔去 後續去研議一下 針對這類型的交通違規檢舉案件我們怎麼樣的去做一些釋法性的"},{"start":105.32,"end":113.191,"text":"確認啦就是違規的部分我們是不是要更嚴謹的去檢視這部分那麻煩我們的交通部跟警政署這樣子的樣態去更嚴謹的去檢視價值有沒有違規好不好這兩點以上麻煩謝謝那組長你先回沒關係"},{"start":121.817,"end":133.464,"text":"好那部長我今天要跟您也是討論道路交通安全規則那只是我要跟您討論是第99條第一項我們剛剛投影片我們的文字啦那也請我們運安會請我們講錯了運研所陳所長"},{"start":137.844,"end":152.29,"text":"一統那針對第99條的部分我想先聽我們交通單位的說文解釋我們是怎麼樣子的理解他這樣子的一個條我們看是部長要說明還是你要交給幕僚單位來說明市長來說明一下"},{"start":155.944,"end":173.258,"text":"這個部分我大概跟委員報告一下道安規則99條基本上是機車行駛車道的相關的規定那在這個第一項索文裡面就是機車行駛的車道應依標誌標線的規定來行駛那如果沒有標誌標線的話才會有後面通則的一個規定"},{"start":173.738,"end":195.738,"text":"那所以就是說這條的規定為什麼會有後面通則的規定就是說可能基於行政成本或等等的部分的話沒有就是說在每一條道路沒有辦法去畫標示標線而且這個交通環境比較單純的情況之下不需要特別用標示標線來做處理的時候所以才會有後面的通則規定那目前以"},{"start":196.618,"end":223.858,"text":"國內的一個這個情況的話大概就是說像都會區的話大概所有大陸的車道大概這個對於這個不管是汽車或機車使用的車道大概都透過標誌標線的一個方式來所以有標誌標線就是依標誌標線在規範嘛那假設我們現在有三個車道嘛那如果說三個車道他都沒有做進行機車的標示那機車行駛在最內側的車道"},{"start":225.379,"end":254.227,"text":"他到底有沒有違規跟這個這一個我也報告一下目前大概就是說如果說這個三個這個車道的話然後都沒有標示這個進行機車就是他沒有標誌或者是標限規定你不能騎機車嘛沒有進行機車的話基本上機車應該都可以這個行駛啦可以行駛 沒有沒有標誌標限的情況下那他沒有特別所寫禁止的話那原則上"},{"start":254.867,"end":273.884,"text":"就是可以的嗎但是現在大概就是三個車道以上的話那大部分大概都內側車道大概都會化進行機車道好沒關係我講的就是剛剛我問的就是如果三個車道的話那如果說都沒有標籤進行機車的話原則上機車行駛每個車道他都是沒有違規的對不對"},{"start":276.347,"end":299.746,"text":"後面還有這個第二款的部分還有這個快慢車道的一個這個對如果說有快慢車道那當然慢車道他也會是一個樣態嘛好那就這樣的情況下來說我們的地方政府他要怎麼的來看這個解釋我們的道安交通規則的第99條他是給地方政府去劃這個"},{"start":302.208,"end":303.271,"text":"標誌表現的一個依據還是給我們機車駕駛行駛的一個參考的一個準則"},{"start":308.888,"end":313.571,"text":"所以我們的機車歧視可以很明確的就是依照現況來看如果說沒有禁止就是可以嘛 我們可以這樣理解沒有禁止就是可以理解"},{"start":339.168,"end":359.012,"text":"那我們的機車歧視 那我們的道安交通規則它既然是給我們機車歧視看了的話那所以我們常常在我不知道在每個縣市怎麼樣至少在新北市或者甚至是我們交通部的公路局的地方交通單位常常會把道路交通安全規則第99條這一條規定搬出來說因為我們道交規的第99條的第一條下面為劃分快慢車道或者是以快慢車道"},{"start":368.075,"end":381.208,"text":"反正就是外側兩個車道是可以行機車其他的不能行駛機車地方政府或者是我們甚至自己的公路局常常會拿這條規定來說所以我們必須要進行機車那他們這樣子的說法我們交通部可不可以明確的在這邊明確的告知"},{"start":389.312,"end":403.079,"text":"明確的告知我們道安交通規則第99條是給機車駕駛人行駛遵循的並不是對地方的交通的地方的政府或者是交通單位去會設交通標誌標線的一個準則"},{"start":405.1,"end":424.191,"text":"可不可以這樣做一個宣示報告員道路交通安全規則是給駕駛人看的我相信地方政府也都理解他不可能不理解那過去交通部其實這樣子的函已經發過好多次了那現在地方政府他還是依據他的這個因地制宜在劃設"},{"start":425.191,"end":445.1,"text":"那他就劃設有他的理由啦這個我們不會去反對但是他說的理由不能夠拿道路交通安全規程拿出來當理由對不對你剛剛希望我們來函釋嘛這個部分已經函釋好幾次了好沒關係那部長其實不只地方政府包括我們自己的公路局在劃設標線的時候也常常會有拿出我們第99條的規定來說內設不行"},{"start":448.582,"end":472.719,"text":"我們當然各案依照各案適不適合進行機車可以討論但是不可以拿第99條來說當作一個不劃設進行機車的理由我們交通部內部啦像公路局這個我們好溝通我們就希望公路局就不要拿這個當理由那但是地方政府我們自己好那拜託我們部長那可不可以我們再一次含釋給地方政府跟我們的公路單位自己的公路局那副本也可能也給我們委員"},{"start":473.699,"end":484.216,"text":"那以後如果說地方政府很明確又把這條拿出來的話那至少我有一個交通部的一個含釋或公文來跟地方政府講不要再拿道路交通安全規定99條來搪塞了可不可以好我就麻煩部長好謝謝各位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":914,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時52分）謝謝主席。麻煩陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["廖委員先翔：警政署陳組長一起。"],["主席：陳組長。"],["廖委員先翔：兩位好。這邊一個小問題先提，依據道路交通安全規則第一百零二條規定，如果我們在號誌化路口有交通指揮人員在指揮的時候，指揮人員的指示優於號誌，這是道路交通安全規則第一百零二條的明文規定。現在實務上會有很多民眾檢舉或科技執法的一些案件透過警方舉發，變成很多民眾都說他會這樣子行駛是依據警察同仁或義交的指揮，才做出違反號誌的一些駕駛行為，但是被民眾檢舉的時候，可能民眾檢舉裡的影像沒有錄到指揮人員的指揮，或者科技執法沒有拍到指揮人員，導致有違規案件警察同仁就會舉發，但是可能民眾的行車紀錄器被複寫，所以他沒有辦法去舉證，這樣子的情況下就會造成一些駕駛人的權益受損，因為他是依照交通指揮人員的指揮。我想關於這一點這是很明確的，我們必須要幫這些駕駛人的權益去平反，我覺得這也沒什麼好討論，後續是不是請交通部跟警政署研議針對這類型的交通違規檢舉案件，怎麼樣去做一些適法性的確認，就違規的部分是不是要更嚴謹地檢視？這部分麻煩交通部跟警政署，針對這樣子的樣態更嚴謹的檢視駕駛人有沒有違規，好不好？以上，這兩點再麻煩，謝謝。組長，你先回沒關係。","部長，我今天也是要跟您討論道路交通安全規則，只是我要跟您討論的是第九十九條第一項，也請運研所陳所長一同討論。針對第九十九條的部分，我想聽交通單位說文解字，我們是怎麼樣理解這樣的一個條文，看是部長要說明，還是要交給幕僚單位來說明？"],["林司長福山：這個部分我大概跟委員報告一下，道安規則第九十九條基本上是機車行駛車道的相關規定，在第一項內文機車行駛的車道應依標誌標線的規定行駛，如果沒有標誌標線的話，才會有後面通則的規定。這條為什麼會有後面通則的規定，可能基於行政成本等等原因，沒有辦法在每一條道路去劃標誌、標線，而且交通環境比較單純的情況之下，不需要特別用標誌、標線處理的時候，才會有後面通則的規定。目前以國內像都會區的話，不管是汽車或機車使用的車道，都會透過標誌、標線的方式處理。"],["廖委員先翔：所以有標誌、標線，就依標誌、標線在規範。假設現在有3個車道，如果3個車道都沒有做禁行機車的標示，那機車行駛在最內側的車道，他到底有沒有違規？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，如果3個車道都沒有標示……"],["廖委員先翔：禁行機車，沒有標誌或標線規定不能騎機車。"],["林司長福山：沒有禁行機車標誌的話，基本上機車應該都可以行駛。"],["廖委員先翔：可以行駛，沒有標誌、標線的情況下，也沒有特別標示禁止的話，原則上就是可以。"],["林司長福山：但是現在大概3個車道以上的話，大部分內側車道都會劃禁行機車道。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，剛剛我問的就是如果3個車道的道路都沒有禁行機車標誌，原則上機車行駛在每個車道都是沒有違規的，對不對？"],["林司長福山：委員，後面還有第二款的部分，還有快慢車道的規定。"],["廖委員先翔：對，如果有快慢車道，當然慢車道也是一個樣態。好，就這樣的情況下，地方政府要怎麼解釋道路交通安全規則第九十九條，是給地方政府去劃標誌、標線的依據，還是給機車駕駛人行駛的參考準則？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，第九十九條基本上是駕駛人遵守的規定，並不是道路車道劃設配置的原則，所以才會講機車行駛的車道就要看標誌、標線，而標誌、標線，基本上就是地方道路主管機關基於車流、車種的組成去劃分車道要如何規劃。"],["廖委員先翔：所以我們的機車騎士可以很明確地依照現況來看，如果沒有禁止標誌就是可以，我們可以這樣理解。"],["林司長福山：對！"],["廖委員先翔：道路交通安全規則既然是給機車騎士看的話，我不知道在每個縣市是怎麼樣，至少在新北市，甚至是交通部公路局的地方交通單位，常常會把道路交通安全規則第九十九條規定搬出來說，因為道路交通安全規則第九十九條第一款在未劃分快慢車道或已劃分快慢車道，反正就是外側兩個車道可以行駛機車，其他的不能行駛機車，地方政府，甚至公路局常常會拿這條規定來說，我們必須要劃禁行機車標誌。對於他們這樣子的說法，交通部可不可以明確的在這邊告知道路交通安全規則第九十九條是給機車駕駛人行駛遵循的，並不是給地方政府或交通單位去繪設交通標誌、標線的一個準則，可不可以做這樣的宣示？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，道路交通安全規則是給駕駛人看的，我相信地方政府也都理解，它不可能不理解，過去交通部這樣子的函已經發過好多次了，現在地方政府還是依據因地制宜原則在劃設，它劃設有它的理由，這個我們不會去反對……"],["廖委員先翔：但是它說的理由不能夠拿道路交通安全規則出來當理由，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：您剛剛希望我們來函釋，這個部分已經函釋好幾次了。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係。部長，其實不只地方政府，包括我們自己的公路局在劃設標線的時候，也常常會拿出第九十九條的規定說內側不行，當然個案是依照個案適不適合禁行機車可以討論，但是不可以拿第九十九條當作劃設禁行機車的一個理由。"],["陳部長世凱：我們交通部內部向公路局溝通，這個我們好溝通，希望公路局就不要拿這個當理由，但是地方政府……"],["廖委員先翔：好。那拜託部長，可不可以再一次函釋給地方政府跟我們的公務單位、自己的公路局，副本也給我們委員？以後如果地方政府又很明確地把這條拿出來的話，至少我有一個交通部的函釋或公文跟地方政府講，不要再拿道路交通安全規則第九十九條來搪塞了。可不可以？"],["陳部長世凱：沒有問題。"],["廖委員先翔：好。就麻煩部長。好，謝謝各位。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。我們請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":162,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-10","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","張啓楷","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","林俊憲","陳雪生","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","黃捷","林國成","林月琴","張雅琳","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","涂權吉","蘇清泉","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部及教育部就「人本交通」及「交通安全」施行狀況進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計\n2案","agenda_id":"1144701_00003"}}},{"id":"161110","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161110","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c11f18d7d475cf2ffcebbe9609d4ca0983567847e18f9cb5875d0c75dcc8d4630c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:45:21 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主席請交通部陳部長請部長部長好 本席先問你一個先問部長一個生活化的問題部長小時候有玩過電子遊戲器嗎有啊有玩過嗎那如果現在有機會再玩你認為現在玩起來的反應會跟小時候比起來會是一樣的嗎會差很多會差很多我跟我的兒子玩起來我的反應變很慢"},{"start":28.479,"end":38.845,"text":"反應變很慢因為根據我們德國海德堡大學研究分析哈佛資料庫他們將近120萬名10到80歲的受試者反應結果發現10到16歲的反應最快那30歲之後開始變慢那60歲之後明顯是最明顯的變慢也是"},{"start":47.99,"end":67.735,"text":"人體自然老化的科學現象之一我們的交通也受到這樣的影響也點出一個迫切需要我們來關注的公共安全問題高齡駕駛那部長您本身應該也有駕照吧有駕照也實際開過車那您是否認同當我們在道路上開車的時候突發狀況的應變反應是維護行車安全的關鍵因素之一沒錯嘛那我們來看"},{"start":72.236,"end":98.27,"text":"就在上個月在桃園巴德發生一起令人痛心的死亡車禍一名67歲的駕駛他疑似身體不適那因為手部劇烈抖動然後沒辦法控制方向盤事故當下完全沒有減速車輛暴衝量成一死二傷的悲劇那這樣的事件也不是個案所以請警察部長在高齡化社會中我們對於高齡駕駛者的身體他的狀態變化還有持續駕駛的資格我們有沒有足夠的檢核機制"},{"start":99.711,"end":115.684,"text":"報告委員我們針對這個75歲以上有這個換照的機制換照的過程當中我們就會做檢核認知功能的這個檢測我們都會來做所以75歲以上這個部分其中包含的視力還有聽力還有操作能力"},{"start":116.725,"end":144.736,"text":"還有一些協調就是認知功能測驗裡面就是說因為他要注意他的腦部跟手眼的協調所以他要有空間時間的相關的一些測驗那我們本身交通部跟衛生局他們有沒有來做聯訪機制目前大概就是說有一些其實這個衛福部的一些資料其實我們現在已經有跟他們在討論說要做相關的一個戒節"},{"start":145.518,"end":157.801,"text":"OK 好了解那我們接下來看到另外一份數據那數據顯示最多事故的他不是75歲以上他是65歲到74歲那是不是代表我們高齡駕駛的管理起點訂的有點太晚了"},{"start":160.987,"end":187.332,"text":"因為這個現象他也間接的說明75歲後強制換照的制度他也確實在程度上提高了風險這個部分我大概跟委員報告一下現在委員提到的這個課題大概就是體格適性駕駛的一個課題那體格適性駕駛課題基本上分成這個普通駕駛人跟這個職業駕駛人的部分那職業駕駛人這一塊的話三年就要體檢"},{"start":188.912,"end":209.953,"text":"這個一次那現在講說這個自用駕駛人的這個部分的話那我們剛剛所提到確實就是說現行這個臨照了之後那在體格的這個部分的話原則上強制的部分是到75歲要這個做適性的一個請教部長一個問題部長你認為我們是不是應該更進一步將這個強制換照的制度往前推進70歲的"},{"start":210.894,"end":225.668,"text":"如果照這個數據來看的話我們是可以討論啦因為這個影響的人數其實相當的多那剛剛委員有提供這個數據65歲左右這一段其實還蠻多的但是其實75到84的這一段開車的人數其實相對也是減少的"},{"start":231.173,"end":247.763,"text":"減少了所以他的事故數當然也是會比較少不過您所提到的65到74的這一段我覺得我們應該可以再更關注一下我們來討論看看看能不能就是往前推到70歲的時候就來開始強制做就是讓這些駕駛者然後回去做"},{"start":250.263,"end":266.553,"text":"我們來研議這個方面 研議看執行面看要怎麼做啦因為這個影響的人數其實還蠻多那本席會這樣提 因為同樣是交通工具那大型的職業駕駛他65歲就必須要繳回駕照那一樣一般駕駛他就可以他需要到75歲才開始繳回那再請交通部研議好嗎"},{"start":267.883,"end":285.419,"text":"好 那部長我們接著看喔公務局為了宣導高齡駕駛換照制度推出了4支影片那部長您可以看到數字最高的分別是8萬 1.9萬然後還有1.8萬 1.7萬次那每部影片平均一年點閱率都不到1萬5那這樣的政策推廣效果您滿意嗎"},{"start":286.907,"end":309.689,"text":"報告委員這個點擊數點閱率我們都希望能夠提高那就看他們做的內容是什麼我不可以說完全滿意因為現在民眾都感覺到說我們的宣導還是不足不過也要跟委員報告就是說我們的宣導的預算其實還真的是蠻有限我們工程做了很多但是我也發現說我們在宣導的經費其實不太足夠"},{"start":310.009,"end":323.33,"text":"那今天看到報告交通服務有說要強力加強宣導嗎那也請就是我們的政策不只要做到那也要有效果對要把它做好啦我也在提醒的是要把它做好那部長我們再來看到另外一個"},{"start":324.793,"end":350.52,"text":"一個不幸的事故就在本月一日也是一樣桃園八德和平路發生一起重大車禍一輛小客車逆向高速撞上機車造成一名45歲的男騎士當場死亡後座的妻子也多處插傷那經警方調查駕駛者是越南籍的軟性男子他的酒測值是0.49那他早已經就是自台長達7年了那另外同樣兩名乘客也是失聯移工事發後當場逃逸"},{"start":351.92,"end":376.324,"text":"那請部長 我們看到這封信 那這是家屬提供給本席的澄清信那本席想問的是 那面對這樣的悲劇到底我們政府該如何來防毒報告委員 失聯移工的部分當然不是交通部來做是 是在移民署來做對 那我們對於道路上面的安全 我們要想辦法來維護那交通部有沒有去了解 就是這些失聯移工就是他們有取得駕照的到底有多少人"},{"start":377.458,"end":399.735,"text":"施連移工有駕照嗎?公務員報告,施連移工這個部分因為確實現在我們還沒有跟內政部這邊做相關的借接所以未來如果說這個能夠有借接的話我們比較能夠去比對一下施連移工跟他的一個駕照的狀況公務局跟移民署有沒有定期做資料的比對?"},{"start":402.226,"end":422.74,"text":"目前就是說我想這個部分的話有這個對接機制嗎這個在移工的資料的部分我們確實現在還沒有所以這就是制度上的漏洞嗎那什麼時候可以把它補起來報告委員我們目前跟移民署正在做借接的這些工作我們會儘速把它借接起來"},{"start":423.536,"end":433.986,"text":"是 那請務必要把這個制度上的漏洞補起來我們不希望再看到有這樣的憾事發生移工的部分我們有啦那失聯的移工我們再來商討看要怎麼樣讓他補齊OK 好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":855,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時45分）謝謝主席。主席，請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱委員若華：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：部長，本席先問部長一個生活化的問題，部長小時候有玩過電子遊戲器嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：有啊！"],["邱委員若華：有玩過嘛，如果現在有機會再玩，你認為現在玩起來的反應跟小時候比起來會是一樣的嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：會差很多。"],["邱委員若華：會差很多喔！"],["陳部長世凱：我跟我兒子玩起來，我的反應變很慢。"],["邱委員若華：OK，根據德國海德堡大學研究，他們分析哈佛資料庫將近120萬名10到80歲受試者的反應，結果發現10到16歲的反應最快，30歲之後開始變慢，60歲之後是最明顯的變慢，也是人體自然老化的科學現象之一。我們的交通也受到這樣的影響，也點出一個迫切需要我們來關注的公共安全問題──高齡駕駛。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["邱委員若華：部長，您本身應該有駕照吧？"],["陳部長世凱：有。"],["邱委員若華：有駕照，也實際開過車，您是否認同當我們在道路上開車的時候，突發狀況的應變反應是維護行車安全的關鍵因素之一？"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。"],["邱委員若華：沒錯嘛！我們來看，就在上個月桃園八德發生一起令人痛心的死亡車禍，一名67歲的駕駛疑似身體不適，因為手部劇烈抖動，沒辦法控制方向盤，事故當下完全沒有減速，車輛爆衝，釀成一死二傷的悲劇，這樣的事件也不是個案。所以請問部長，在高齡化社會中，對於高齡駕駛者的身體狀態變化，還有持續駕駛的資格，我們有沒有足夠的檢核機制？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們針對75歲以上有換照的機制，換照的過程當中我們就會檢核，認知功能的檢測我們都會來做，所以75歲以上這個部分，我們是有做的。"],["邱委員若華：其中包含了視力，還有聽力和操作能力。"],["陳局長文瑞：對，還有一些協調，就是認知功能測驗裡面，因為要注意腦部跟手眼的協調，所以會有空間、時間相關的一些測驗。"],["邱委員若華：交通部跟衛生局有沒有做聯防機制？"],["陳局長文瑞：目前就是衛福部有一些資料，其實我們現在已經跟他們討論要做相關的介接。"],["邱委員若華：OK，了解。我們接下來看到另外一份數據，數據顯示，最多事故不是發生在75歲以上，而是65歲到74歲，這是不是代表我們對高齡駕駛的管理起點訂得有點太晚了？因為這個現象也間接說明75歲以後強制換照的制度……"],["陳部長世凱：75歲開車的比較少。"],["邱委員若華：它也確實在程度上提高了風險。"],["林司長福山：針對這個部分，我大概跟委員報告一下，現在委員提到的這個課題，大概就是體格適性駕駛的一個課題，體格適性駕駛課題基本上分成普通駕駛人跟職業駕駛人的部分，職業駕駛人這塊，3年就要體檢一次。現在講自用駕駛人這個部分，委員剛剛所提到的確實是現行領照之後，在體格這個部分，原則上是75歲要強制做適性檢查。"],["邱委員若華：這邊請教部長一個問題，部長，你認為我們是否應該更進一步將強制換照制度往前推進到70歲？如果照這個數據來看。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分我們可以討論，因為這個影響的人數其實相當的多。剛剛委員有提供這個數據，65歲左右這一段其實還滿多的。"],["邱委員若華：肇事率最高。"],["陳部長世凱：其實75到84這一段，開車的人數其實相對也是減少了。"],["邱委員若華：對。"],["陳部長世凱：減少了，所以它的事故數當然也會比較少。不過您所提到的65到74這一段，我覺得我們應該可以再更關注一下，看怎麼樣降低它的肇事率。"],["邱委員若華：是，我們來討論看看，看能不能往前推到70歲的時候就開始強制讓這些駕駛者回去做……"],["陳部長世凱：我們可以研議這個方面。"],["邱委員若華：好。"],["陳部長世凱：看執行面要怎麼做，因為這個影響的人數其實還滿多的。"],["邱委員若華：本席會這樣提，因為同樣是交通工具，大型的職業駕駛65歲就必須繳回駕照，但是一般駕駛卻是到75歲才開始繳回。這再請交通部研議，好嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["邱委員若華：部長，我們接著看公務局為了宣導高齡駕駛人駕照管理制度，推出了4支影片，您可以看到數字最高的觀看次數分別是8萬次、1.9萬次、1.8萬次，還有1.7萬次，每部影片平均一年點閱率都不到1萬5,000次，這樣的政策推廣效果，您滿意嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，點閱率我們都希望能夠提高，就看他們做的內容是什麼，我不可以說完全滿意，因為現在民眾都感覺到我們的宣導還是不足。不過也要跟委員報告，我們宣導的預算其實真的是滿有限，我們工程做了很多，但是我也發現宣導的經費其實不太足夠，宣導經費其實只要拉高一點……"],["邱委員若華：今天看到交通部報告有說要加強宣導，我們的政策不只要做到，也要有效果。"],["陳部長世凱：我們會加強宣導，要把它做好，委員在提醒的是要把它做好。"],["邱委員若華：部長，我們再來看另外一個不幸的事故，在本(5)月1日桃園八德和平路發生一起重大車禍，一輛小客車逆向高速撞上機車，造成一名45歲男騎士當場死亡，後座的妻子也多處擦傷，經警方調查駕駛者是越南籍的阮姓男子，他的酒測值是0.49，且早已經滯臺長達7年了，另外同車兩名乘客也是失聯移工，事發後當場逃逸。請部長看看這封信，這是家屬提供給本席的陳情信，本席想問的是，面對這樣的悲劇，政府到底應該如何來防堵？"],["陳局長文瑞：報告委員，失聯移工的部分，當然不是交通部來做。"],["邱委員若華：是，是在內政部移民署。"],["陳局長文瑞：對，我們對於道路上面的安全要想辦法來維護。"],["邱委員若華：交通部有沒有去了解這些失聯移工，到底多少人有取得駕照？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，失聯移工這個部分，確實現在我們還沒有跟內政部做相關資訊的介接，未來如果能夠介接的話，我們比較能夠比對失聯移工跟駕照的狀況。"],["邱委員若華：是，公路局跟移民署有沒有定期比對資料？"],["陳局長文瑞：目前這個部分的話……"],["邱委員若華：有這個對接機制嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：在移工資料的部分，我們確實現在還沒有，我們大概有其他的……"],["邱委員若華：所以這就是制度上的漏洞，那什麼時候可以把它補起來？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們目前跟移民署正在做介接的這些工作，會儘速把它介接起來。"],["邱委員若華：是，請務必要把這個制度上的漏洞補起來，我們不希望再看到有這樣的憾事發生。"],["陳部長世凱：我們有移工的部分，失聯移工的部分，我們再來商討看要怎麼樣補齊。"],["邱委員若華：OK，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們請廖先翔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":162,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-10","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","張啓楷","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","林俊憲","陳雪生","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","黃捷","林國成","林月琴","張雅琳","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","涂權吉","蘇清泉","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部及教育部就「人本交通」及「交通安全」施行狀況進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計\n2案","agenda_id":"1144701_00003"}}},{"id":"161109","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161109","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1841d377dd7804457ebbe9609d4ca0983567847e18f9cb5874159dd19c61a0ed75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"11:36:23 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沒錯 我們也跟地方政府其實一直都有在配合可是我就要提醒你一件事 我非常肯定也謝謝你譬如說在機場 你有這樣子的旅客中心但是呢 從機場到高美濕地 你知道怎麼搭公車嗎這個我沒有體驗過 不曉得沒有公車 是要轉車轉好幾次 我們也沒有那個shuttle bus"},{"start":346.744,"end":354.354,"text":"我只是提醒我們可以做什麼那從高鐵站怎麼到高梅斯蒂應該也是要轉車轉好幾次"},{"start":359.086,"end":381.305,"text":"報告委員其實在交通面我們有台灣好行,觀光署還有台灣好行在各個縣市我們都透過台灣好行去串接景點之間今天雖然觀光署沒有來,但是因為今天在討論交通嘛那我就說交通跟觀光的連結是互相都非常必要的嘛,不僅僅是國人要去觀光"},{"start":382.206,"end":401.025,"text":"要去景點國際觀光客尤其現在自由行的散客越來越多而且我認為絕大部分自由行的散客那自由行的散客我們要規劃的就是觀光路線跟交通安全那交通裡面的道路系統又如何銜接我們的這個觀光景點"},{"start":403.288,"end":417.674,"text":"報告委員我這樣說交通部有台灣好行可以協助地方政府但那只是一部分真正的市區的串接它的公共運輸市區公車市政府要想辦法趕快把它建置更完整"},{"start":418.234,"end":444.313,"text":"那它的建制的過程當中我們公路局其實也在經費上給予很多的補助那我們也希望地方政府要積極一點不可能全部都靠我觀光署的台灣好行去串接到所有例如說舉例來講台中不可能所有都是透過我台灣好行來串接那台中市政府它的這個公共運輸跟它的客運系統自己要建制起來如果未來我可以的時候我也要請交通部來幫忙台中市政府可以嗎"},{"start":444.98,"end":453.89,"text":"可以啊可以啊我們到現在你一定可以的啦未來有機會的話我們一定在觀光署的部分台灣好險還是會做所以我們現在可以開始來討論啊部長你也是台中人啊對不對那我是台中在地的立委"},{"start":460.057,"end":485.322,"text":"那我也想為台中這個城市做更多事那我們發現的這些問題我們可不可以先開始來進行我們如何來解決 如何來改善而且呢 觀光跟交通是存此相依而且不是國人的人身安全而已還是國際觀光客對台灣對台中的一個印象我們的城市印象不能是不安全的啊台灣也不能讓國際觀光客認為是不安全的啊"},{"start":488.243,"end":495.091,"text":"對不對 所以拜託部長要全力支持台中那未來我們一起合作好不好 好 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那麻煩請一下我們楊總裁"},{"start":18.042,"end":47.259,"text":"土耳其早總裁那今天應該很多人都跟你討論有關匯率的問題那當然我們也很多要提出可是我這邊還有自己選區比較重要的來跟總裁這邊來請託那我們桃園市大園盧竹地區桃園航空城機場園區特定區土地改良區段徵收案那這個案子總裁應該知道吧我也知道"},{"start":47.979,"end":66.368,"text":"那這當然是配合國家重大建設辦理的都市開發計畫那這個也是涉及我們數萬人民家園財產這個案子從2010年到現在已經十幾年了那當初我們政府是承諾先見後簽的方式鼓勵大家"},{"start":67.028,"end":84.364,"text":"放棄家園拆除房屋把土地交給國家做建設那當然我們國家也承諾要蓋新房子給他們成構或者發土地讓他們自建可是總裁那現在重化區的居民這些徵收戶面臨一個問題"},{"start":85.465,"end":103.741,"text":"那就是我們桃園市蓋的新房現在完工準備讓售還有重建的接擴土地也分配好準備要給他們蓋新房子可是現在他們要跟銀行貸款申請買屋或蓋房的這些貸款的時候"},{"start":105.122,"end":117.741,"text":"發現現在帶不到錢那2月份的時候我們那時候主責航空城計畫的那時候我們政務委員是陳金德陳金德政務委員那時候在召開25次專案小組會議的時候"},{"start":120.365,"end":133.753,"text":"有協調他有表示說要協調我們央行跟金管會針對貸款陳述的限制與優先核貸的可行性那不知道總裁這一部分有沒有來幫我們這些徵收部來協助是啦"},{"start":136.294,"end":161.434,"text":"我想就是說第一個就是說他受到了限制因為現在就是說專業銀行有對選擇性信用管制有一些的限制除了這個以外事實上有一些的部分自然人他如果說沒有第一戶的話沒有自己的房子的那些事實上那些都沒有受到限制這是第一點"},{"start":163.135,"end":181.229,"text":"那第二點呢如果說他後面的這些他有他以前都有房子啦那現在是因為就是說這個要搬進去發生是一些的就是說他受到了限制那我們呢中央銀行這個我記得啊桃園市政府呢都有發函給我們中央銀行也在那個陳委員那邊的討論的時候呢也都有我們也有參與所以呢我們呢第一個"},{"start":189.895,"end":212.967,"text":"我們有回覆桃園市政府這個議題那其中我們強調的是什麼強調就是說對如果說有問題的話因為每一個房貸戶他的個案都不一樣不是說所有的你這些的裡面的這些的他的那個個案都是一致的"},{"start":213.627,"end":234.031,"text":"如果說個案都是一致而且是需要幫忙的那當然是沒有問題問題是在於說他每一戶每一戶的情況都不太一樣所以呢我們就有一個有一個全變我們有一個全理的方法個案如果你有問題的話桃園市政府呢整個收集起來來給我們讓我們來協助"},{"start":238.292,"end":264.68,"text":"就是這樣子總裁其實你針對這部分我也知道你們的回函但是你們其實你們的回函針對我們航空城這些居民其實它是本身既有的排除規定不然其實它甚至這個安置住宅的時候還是受到現代令的管制所以我剛剛才會一直在我剛剛才一直在強調就是說因為每戶每戶的情況都不太一樣"},{"start":265.76,"end":290.897,"text":"那所以呢也就是說你針對每一戶就是說受到他合理的我們需要幫忙的在裡面的假設說好200戶那裡面呢有100戶或是50戶他是確實是受到就是說他是應該要我們來協助的那你就把他報過來好那總裁我也說明一下那航空城裡面這個居民他的情況是比較特殊他現在是"},{"start":291.778,"end":310.66,"text":"當初你國家重大建設就是他就是以一屋換一屋的方式把自己現有的房子換成政府興建的安置住宅而且是採取先買再拆的方式是真的有實質換屋的需求他並不是買新房所以"},{"start":311.221,"end":334.853,"text":"你們的切結規定是要求賣舊屋 賣土地那跟我們航空城居民拆舊屋 交土地這狀態不一樣那請問這種買新拆舊的狀態是不是也可以接受在現代令的規範可以不受現代令的規範我就說嘛 每一個個案都不大一樣嘛"},{"start":335.893,"end":363.513,"text":"因為這個是航空城裡面它的樣態因為你們裡面的規範是一屋換一夫但是因為你們規範是賣舊屋賣土地但是我要講的是航空城它是特別是拆舊屋交土地所以這一部分你們這個規範一定要讓他們知道它是配合我們航空城是配合國家重大建設跟你們一般投資客他為了去"},{"start":365.555,"end":373.031,"text":"去投資買房賺錢的形態不一樣所以這個你們應該要規範在排除現代定之外"},{"start":374.343,"end":402.373,"text":"好 我們也有協處措施好 這個總裁部分你幫我們研議一下一定要針對他這個是國家重大建設他並不是去買房要去賺這個錢他是完全配合政府所以針對你們這個規範你要針對航空城這些徵收物來放寬是 好 我們來研議好 請總裁來趕快幫我們研議一下好 謝謝圖委員的質詢下一位請王鴻薇委員質詢請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1425,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（12時19分）謝謝主席，麻煩請一下楊總裁。"],["主席：總裁請。"],["楊總裁金龍：涂委員早。"],["涂委員權吉：總裁，今天應該很多人都跟你討論有關匯率的問題。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["涂委員權吉：當然我們也有很多要提出的，可是我這邊還有我自己選區比較重要的，要來跟總裁請託，就是我們桃園市大園、蘆竹地區桃園航空城機場園區特定區土地改良區段徵收案，這個案子總裁應該知道吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也知道。"],["涂委員權吉：當然，這是配合國家重大建設辦理的都市開發計畫，這個也涉及到數萬人民的家園和財產，這個案子從2010年到現在已經十幾年，當初政府是承諾先建後遷的方式，鼓勵大家放棄家園、拆除房屋，把土地交給國家來做建設。當然，國家也承諾要蓋新房子給他們承購，或者發土地讓他們自建。可是，總裁，現在重劃區的居民、這些徵收戶都面臨一個問題，那就是桃園市蓋的新房現在完工準備讓售，重建的街廓土地也都分配好，準備要給他們來蓋新房子，可是現在他們要跟銀行申請買屋或是蓋房的貸款時，卻發現貸不到錢。2月份時，那時候主責航空城計畫的是陳金德政務委員，那時候在召開第25次的專案小組會議時，他有表示會協調央行跟金管會針對貸款成數的限制與優先核貸的可行性，不知道這部分總裁有沒有幫忙協助我們這些徵收戶？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦！我想，第一個，它受到了限制，因為現在中央銀行有對選擇性信用管制做出一些限制。除了這個之外，事實上，如果自然人沒有擁有自用住宅，那他就不會受到限制，這是第一點。","第二點，如果是以前擁有房子的，但現在因為要搬進去新房子而受到限制的，我記得這些桃園市政府都有發函給我們中央銀行，這個在政務委員那邊討論時，我們也都有參與，所以第一個，我們有回復桃園市政府這個議題，其中我們強調的是什麼？我們強調的是，對，如果有問題的話，因為每一個房貸戶的個案都不一樣，不是說這裡面所有的房貸戶個案都是一致的，如果個案都是一致的，而且是需要幫忙的，那當然沒有問題，問題是在於，這每一戶的情況都不大一樣，所以我們有一個權宜的方法，如果個案有問題的話，桃園市政府整個蒐集後交給我們，我們再來協助，就是這樣子。"],["涂委員權吉：好，總裁，其實針對這部分，我也知道你們的回函，但是你們針對航空城計畫居民的回函，其實它本身就有既有的排除規定，甚至他們在安置住宅的時候，還是有受到限貸令的管制。"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛一直在強調的就是，因為每一戶的情況都不大一樣嘛！也就是說，合理的、需要我們幫忙的，假如200戶裡面有100戶或是50戶確實是需要我們來協助的，那你就把他報過來。"],["涂委員權吉：好，總裁，我也說明一下航空城裡面的這個居民，他的情況比較特殊，當初國家這個重大建設是讓他以一屋換一屋的方式，把自己現有的房子換成政府興建的安置住宅，而且是採取先買再拆的方式，他是真的有實質換屋需求，他並不是買新房，但是你們的切結規定是要求「賣舊屋、賣土地」，這跟我們航空城居民的「拆舊屋、交土地」的狀態不一樣，請問這種「買新拆舊」的狀態是不是可以不受限貸令所規範？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我說了，每一個個案都不大一樣嘛！"],["涂委員權吉：因為這是航空城裡面的樣態，因為你們的規範是「一屋換一屋」、「賣舊屋、賣土地」，但是我要講的是，航空城比較特別，它是「拆舊屋、交土地」，所以這部分的規範你們一定要讓他們知道，航空城是配合國家重大建設，這跟一般投資客為了投資買房賺錢的型態不一樣，所以這個你們應該要排除在限貸令之外。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，我們有協處的措施。"],["涂委員權吉：好，這個部分請總裁幫我們研議一下。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["涂委員權吉：這是國家重大建設，他並不是要買房子去賺這個錢，他完全是配合政府，所以針對你們這個規範，你們要針對航空城的這些徵收戶來放寬相關的規定。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我們來研議。"],["涂委員權吉：請總裁趕快幫我們研議一下。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝涂委員的質詢。","下一位請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","王世堅","林思銘","涂權吉","王鴻薇","謝龍介","陳玉珍","陳冠廷","林楚茵","翁曉玲"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、國家發展委員會\n劉主任委員鏡清、勞動部洪部長申翰、銓敘部施部長能傑就「我國如果要設立國家主權基金，中\n央銀行與政府相關基金（如四大基金等）所扮演的角色為何？」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00006"}}},{"id":"161107","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161107","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c15700734b10e7c3a1e0059966c803d0e9567847e18f9cb587444a855be115db145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"12:07:29 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明天慢慢來OK好 我們請楊總裁楊總裁請"},{"start":24.692,"end":43.798,"text":"總裁好 辛苦了 早上到現在因為這個議題太重要了 就叫總裁總裁 我們新台幣對美元的匯率從4月24號的32.529 一路走到5月5號昨天的收盤價 昨天是30.295元已經升值超過兩塊"},{"start":50.34,"end":71.846,"text":"總裁也在5月5號下午召開記者會做出七點說明表示說最近新台幣的匯率的急劇波動主要的原因是因為外資匯入資金投資台股以及廠商因新台幣升值的預期心理而增加美元的供給"},{"start":73.866,"end":92.011,"text":"總裁你知不知道我們中華民國的央行跟其他國家的央行最獨特的差異是什麼可能你不知道我告訴你答案那就是中華民國的央行也是雙總裁制"},{"start":93.592,"end":108.16,"text":"那怎麼說呢因為我看到你在5月5號記者會後我們的總統啊另外一位總裁啊也就是賴清德總統啊他不落你後他接著發布了五點談話總裁你了解我們賴總統五點談話的內容嗎"},{"start":112.743,"end":137.583,"text":"你了解他五點談話的內容嗎後來我也稍微有看了一下稍微了解了我也稍微看了一下我想主要總統在五點談話中說新台幣最近的急劇升值其中一個原因就是因為有政治人物竟然鎖定匯率議題來炒作導致市場被誤導"},{"start":138.624,"end":161.851,"text":"以及非理性的預期心理總統這樣說總裁我看您發布的七點談話中並沒有談到這一點什麼政治人物介入來談論匯率炒作的議題所以總統的這個話不在你的七點的說明之中"},{"start":162.971,"end":190.445,"text":"這是我們央行分析的疏漏還是根本沒有這個原因存在總統亂講的我跟委員說明一下剛剛你講到的就是說有兩位總裁我也覺得很驚訝那個就是說有兩個總裁那不 所以我就說有一點你這個好像有一個暗示"},{"start":191.98,"end":217.971,"text":"就我的解讀啊你的暗示就是說周恩來的總裁他背後有一個指揮他的另外一個總裁要是讓新來幣貶就貶讓他新來幣升就升我在這個場合呢我跟委員鄭重的聲明絕對沒有這回事絕對沒有這回事"},{"start":221.414,"end":238.942,"text":"那我請教你就總統這個談話那他講說是有政治人物就匯率的議題決定匯率議題來炒作那我請教你因為你的七點談話裡面沒有那你看到哪一位政治人物在炒作匯率的議題"},{"start":239.682,"end":256.64,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說因為在炒作的 不是說炒作啦我就說是市場 所以我們用說市場評論人因為每一個都可以當作市場評論人不是政治人物嗎 這要講清楚啊沒有政治人物嘛 你回答我"},{"start":263.085,"end":280.849,"text":"應該我是覺得就是說只要就說是評論了這個評論了這個這個議題的話呢那都是包括在我們的這個市場評論人員是啊對那你也沒看到政治人物吧是誰是誰我們沒有沒有看到吧我們沒有任何政治人物去炒這個會議"},{"start":283.891,"end":309.892,"text":"所以我其實我會這樣暗示我是要告訴那個總裁總統似乎不應該去干預這樣的央行的獨立性他去講說這個匯率炒作是因為有政治人物炒作你總統的層級你去干預央行的整個對匯率的這個整個判斷要如何來這個穩定我們的匯率總統他要出來說明他要出來講話嗎"},{"start":311.954,"end":320.703,"text":"他要干預你嗎?他要暗示你嗎?這個就是說委員的一個解讀要尊重央行的超然地位剛剛我也已經就說鄭重的一個聲明沒有兩位總裁啦這個一直到這裡了 謝謝總裁我想我也看到"},{"start":334.296,"end":354.615,"text":"當新台幣兌美元在5月5號早上升破30元的時候登日最高是29.59下午我們央行才終於出來對外喊話那本席可不可以認定新台幣兌美元匯價的洋金融防線就是30元"},{"start":356.632,"end":360.414,"text":"我剛剛就有一個委員在提到這個就說彭懷蘭彭懷蘭彭懷蘭彭懷蘭的黃線我也就說我從來沒有聽我們前總裁呢他提到他有他的"},{"start":373.74,"end":399.099,"text":"他的防線你的 因為我現在觀察他不一樣那然後呢就是說 你的 你的那我現在我在這邊回答的時候呢我也就否定了就是說確實都沒有什麼防線這樣啦 我更具體的問你啦就是到今年年底 到年底喔我們央行啊對這個新台幣的美元的匯價 匯率價的紅燈底線是否就是1比30"},{"start":402.29,"end":414.375,"text":"我一直在強調就是說中央銀行不能報名牌事實上這個名牌也不是真的是名牌不能讓匯率一直波動因為匯率是由供需來決定"},{"start":423.078,"end":428.901,"text":"供需來決定那中央銀行適時的做一些調節讓匯率能夠動態穩定我們的職者就是這樣子所以呢你要講到就是說是要升到哪裡啦或是貶到哪裡啊Who knows"},{"start":441.966,"end":461.158,"text":"今天大家會有這個疑慮因為我們看到這一次的這個匯率突然的會升值那麼快大家一個疑慮喔是不是央行啊你是不是一開始就一路的開綠燈只是你沒有想到說竟然衝破30的這樣一個紅燈的底線你才出手來阻止"},{"start":463.739,"end":492.429,"text":"我還是一直在強調的就是說就是因為他的預期心理太強烈了那專案銀行呢就是說我們有事實調整但是呢這個事實調整呢就是說這個調整呢就是說是因為就預期心理太過強烈了但是呢我說事後我們看這個結果但是呢就是說是當然就是說是市場的一個shock"},{"start":494.29,"end":516.48,"text":"兩塊錢但是下來了以後呢我們總覺得我們中央銀行的一個我們中央銀行因為就是說這個能量已經釋放出去了就是說預期心理已經釋放了所以我們的操作就比較它的供需是接近於平衡我們的操作就比較比較比較容易其實你一直沒有回答我的問題你認為新台幣的對美元的匯率到底你的底線"},{"start":522.063,"end":526.628,"text":"所以我就說這個不是在報名牌啊所以我剛剛在回答另外一個委員的時候我就說最好就是說"},{"start":538.3,"end":549.223,"text":"因為委員是重要的人物 你的意願都足以影響這個會事好啦總裁好這可能如果說委員你如果說繼續再講下去市場還是因為你不講了市場還是繼續在議題好啦 這問題到這裡就好了就讓大家去猜吧"},{"start":560.786,"end":576.537,"text":"另外我們看到新台幣走深這個議題總裁你表示說美國沒有提出要求沒有沒有沒有絕對沒有我剛剛在第一個就是說我在澄清然後一個聲明我就一直在講就說絕對沒有你聽我問你的問題"},{"start":579.639,"end":601.954,"text":"賴總統他也表示說台美關稅談判沒有觸及匯率的議題但主任長他昨天在總諮詢的時候他卻說台美關稅談判可能列匯率為談判的範圍喔說可能喔因為因為喔那列立定我現在就問你的立場所以我要我也藉這個機會來說明你是拒絕還是會派人去我跟問我們"},{"start":609.339,"end":625.872,"text":"因為美國的匯率報告我們是跟他討論的對象所以我們基本上我們每年都會最少都是會有兩次的一個討論討論的內容是什麼討論的內容就是說全球的總體經濟環境是怎麼樣"},{"start":632.717,"end":645.99,"text":"美國的經濟情況是怎麼樣台灣的經濟情況是怎麼樣那匯率的情況是怎麼樣大概就是這樣子我們是每年匯率的議題每年都會討論會 會 會我們都是正式因關稅談判嘛所以我看的一個議題裡面報告就是說"},{"start":654.438,"end":659.963,"text":"剛好就這個時候有你剛才怎麼講剛好就這個時候就關稅的談判才會沒有沒有我就說意思就是說事實上這個是Regular是經常性的啦對啦是正常性的啦"},{"start":670.773,"end":688.445,"text":"我們每年都是兩次 最少是兩次那我們隨時都會可以跟他來溝通的有利於我們國人 有利於中小企業的各種規定的控制我還在強調就是說 中央銀行跟美國財政部我們的溝通都是非常的順暢好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1328,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（12時7分）謝謝主席，請楊總裁。"],["主席：楊總裁請。"],["楊總裁金龍：林委員好。"],["林委員思銘：總裁好，辛苦了啦！早上到現在。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員關心。"],["林委員思銘：因為這個議題太重要了，還是要請教一下總裁，我們新臺幣對美元的匯率，從4月24日的32.529元一路走到5月5日，昨天的收盤價是30.295元，已經升值超過2元，總裁也在5月5日下午召開記者會作出7點說明，表示說最近新臺幣匯率的急遽波動，主要的原因是因為外資匯入資金投資臺股以及廠商因新臺幣升值的預期心理，而增加美元的供給。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["林委員思銘：總裁知不知道我們中華民國的央行跟其他的國家的央行，最獨特的差異是什麼？可能你不知道，我跟你說啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝你。"],["林委員思銘：我告訴你答案，就是中華民國的央行是雙總裁制啊！這怎麼說呢？因為我看到你在5月5日記者會後，我們的總統，另外一位總裁啊！也就是賴清德總統，他不落你後，接著發布了5點談話，總裁了解我們賴總統5點談話的內容嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：後來我也稍微有看了一下。"],["林委員思銘：稍微了解了。"],["楊總裁金龍：稍微看了一下。"],["林委員思銘：我想主要總統這5點談話中說新臺幣最近的急遽升值，其中一個原因就是因為有政治人物竟然鎖定匯率議題來炒作，導致市場被誤導以及非理性的預期心理，總統這樣說啦！總裁，我看您發布的7點談話中並沒有談到這一點，什麼政治人物介入、談論匯率炒作的議題，所以總統這個話不在你的7點的說明之中，這是央行分析的疏漏，還是根本沒有這個原因存在，總統亂說的？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員說明一下，剛剛你也講到了，有兩位總裁，我也覺得很驚訝。"],["林委員思銘：是啊！總統後面竟然講這種話。"],["楊總裁金龍：就是說有兩個總裁，不，所以我就說你好像有一個暗示，就我的解讀啦！"],["林委員思銘：你說明沒關係。"],["楊總裁金龍：你的暗示就是說中央銀行的總裁背後有指揮他的另外一個總裁，要讓新臺幣貶就貶，讓新臺幣升就升，我在這個場合跟委員鄭重地聲明，絕對沒有這回事，絕對沒有這回事。"],["林委員思銘：好，那我請教你，就總統這個談話，他說是有政治人物鎖定匯率議題來炒作，但你的7點談話裡面沒有，你看到哪一位政治人物在炒作匯率的議題？有嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，因為在炒作的，不是說炒作，所以我們說市場評論人，因為每一個人都可以當作市場評論人，委員也是。"],["林委員思銘：所以不是政治人物，這要講清楚啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：委員也是，我們就說市場評論人。"],["林委員思銘：沒有政治人物嘛，你回答我！就是市場人士嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：我是覺得只要評論了這個議題的話，都包括在市場評論人員裡面。"],["林委員思銘：是啊，你也沒看到政治人物吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：至於是誰，我們沒有說。"],["林委員思銘：沒有看到吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是說沒有看到……"],["林委員思銘：沒有任何政治人物去炒作匯率的議題。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們沒有那個啦。"],["林委員思銘：所以其實我會這樣暗示是要告訴總裁，總統似乎不應該去干預央行的獨立性，去講匯率是因為有政治人物炒作，以總統的層級去干預央行對匯率的判斷，要如何來穩定我們的匯率，總統要出來說明、要出來講話嗎？他要干預你嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，不過……"],["林委員思銘：他要暗示你嗎？不應該嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：這個就是委員的解讀，不過……"],["林委員思銘：要尊重央行的超然地位嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，剛剛我也已經鄭重地聲明，沒有兩位總裁。"],["林委員思銘：好啦，這個議題就到這裡，沒有就好了。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝！謝謝！"],["林委員思銘：總裁，當新臺幣兌美元在5月5號早上升破30元的時候，當日最高是29.59，下午我們央行才終於出來對外喊話，那本席可不可以認定新臺幣兌美元匯價的楊金龍防線就是30元？"],["楊總裁金龍：剛剛也有一個委員提到這個，就是彭南淮……彭淮南防線，我從來沒有聽到我們前總裁提到他有他的防線。"],["林委員思銘：因為我現在觀察到是這樣，你的。"],["楊總裁金龍：現在我在這邊回答的時候，我也就否定了，就是確實沒有所謂的防線啦。"],["林委員思銘：這樣啦，總裁，我更具體地問你，就是到今年年底，我們央行對新臺幣的美元匯率價的紅燈底線是否就是1比30？"],["楊總裁金龍：我一直在強調，中央銀行不能報明牌，事實上這個明牌也不是真的是明牌。"],["林委員思銘：不是報明牌，這個是你要給國人信心，要給我們中小企業信心啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：因為這個……不是。"],["林委員思銘：不能讓匯率這樣一直波動，這樣大家要怎麼做生意？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為匯率是由供需來決定，中央銀行適時地做一些調節，讓匯率能夠動態穩定，我們的職責就是這樣。"],["林委員思銘：對啦。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以你要講到是要升到哪裡或貶到哪裡，who knows？"],["林委員思銘：其實，總裁，今天大家會有這個疑慮，是因為我們看到這一次的匯率突然升值那麼快，大家有一個疑慮，央行是不是一開始就一路開綠燈？只是你沒有想到竟然衝破30這樣一個紅燈底線。"],["楊總裁金龍：不會啦，我還是……"],["林委員思銘：所以你才出手來阻升。"],["楊總裁金龍：我還是一直強調，就是因為預期心理太強烈了，中央銀行也適時調整，但是這個適時調整會要……"],["林委員思銘：底線呢？你的底線是不是30？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個調整就是因為預期心理太過強烈了，但是事後我們看這個結果，當然給市場一個shock，兩塊錢，但是下來了以後，我們中央銀行覺得這個能量已經釋放出去了，預期心理已經釋放了，它的供需接近於平衡，我們的操作就比較容易。"],["林委員思銘：總裁，其實你一直沒有回答我的問題。"],["楊總裁金龍：不，我們的原則就是這樣。"],["林委員思銘：我是想要了解，你認為新臺幣兌美元的匯率，你的底線不能跟國人講嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我就說這個不是在報明牌啊！"],["林委員思銘：這怎麼是報明牌呢？這是對國人一個安定的心理。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我剛剛在回答另外一個委員的時候我就說，最好就是……因為委員是重要的人物，你的一言都足以影響匯市。"],["林委員思銘：好啦，總裁……"],["楊總裁金龍：這個就可能……"],["林委員思銘：你不願意講就好啦！因為市場都在看啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：如果委員繼續再講下去，我總覺得就有一點……"],["林委員思銘：你不講，市場還是繼續在預期啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：就有一點符合我們的第六點。"],["林委員思銘：好啦，這個問題到這裡就好了，就讓大家去猜吧！","另外，我們看到新臺幣走升這個議題，總裁表示美國沒有提出要求……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，沒有，絕對沒有，我剛剛第一個就說，我再澄清，然後一個聲明，我就一直在講絕對沒有。"],["林委員思銘：好啦，你聽我問你的問題，賴總統也表示說臺美關稅談判時沒有觸及匯率的議題，但卓院長昨天在總質詢的時候，卻說臺美關稅談判可能把匯率列為談判的範圍喔，說可能喔，我現在就問你的立場。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我也借這個機會來說明……"],["林委員思銘：你的立場是拒絕，還是會派人去參與匯率的談判？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們長久以來因為美國的匯率報告，我們是跟他討論的對象，所以基本上我們每年最少都會有兩次的討論。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["楊總裁金龍：那討論的內容是什麼呢？討論的內容就是全球的總體經濟環境是怎麼樣，美國的經濟情況是怎麼樣，臺灣的經濟情況是怎麼樣，匯率的情況是怎麼樣，大概就是這樣子，我們是每年……"],["林委員思銘：所以匯率的議題每年都會討論？"],["楊總裁金龍：會、會、會，我們都會。"],["林委員思銘：因為這一次因應關稅談判嘛，所以特別把匯率列入我們談判的議題裡面。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我才會跟委員報告，剛好就這個時候……"],["林委員思銘：有，你剛才怎麼跟我們說沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：剛好就這個時候就關稅的談判，才會……"],["林委員思銘：所以匯率議題也會列入吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有，我的意思就是，事實上這個是regularly。"],["林委員思銘：是經常性的啦，每年固定性的啦。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，是正常性的啦。"],["林委員思銘：好啦。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們每年就是兩次，最少是兩次。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝你。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們隨時都可以跟他來溝通的。"],["林委員思銘：要能夠做出有利於我們國人、有利中小企業的各種匯率的控制。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝，我還要再強調，中央銀行跟美國財政部的溝通都非常地順暢。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林思銘委員的質詢。","下一位請涂權吉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","王世堅","林思銘","涂權吉","王鴻薇","謝龍介","陳玉珍","陳冠廷","林楚茵","翁曉玲"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、國家發展委員會\n劉主任委員鏡清、勞動部洪部長申翰、銓敘部施部長能傑就「我國如果要設立國家主權基金，中\n央銀行與政府相關基金（如四大基金等）所扮演的角色為何？」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00006"}}},{"id":"161106","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161106","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1007053c8950cd614e0059966c803d0e9567847e18f9cb5876365cf59414950575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:56:53 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說謊第二 插手會試"},{"start":33.505,"end":54.62,"text":"為什麼很簡單維持匯率的穩定對於我們是以出口為導向的國家而言那太重要了我們出口的金額佔我們台灣的出口佔整個GDP的60.82我們很清楚"},{"start":56.274,"end":83.588,"text":"數十年來我們台灣就是出口導向的國家因為我們台灣沒有天然資源嘛我們沒有油沒有煤沒有稀土金屬我們靠的就是我們台灣人的智慧努力勤勞所以我們這樣子加工製造出口那這是正確的事情啊所以央行來保護"},{"start":86.611,"end":108.578,"text":"這個匯市的穩定是正確的所以我認為在這一個部分啦那美國當然他是提啦美國就是說希望這些貿易夥伴不要藉著匯率政策來從事不公平貿易但是他祭出三個標準而這三個標準要通通達到"},{"start":110.262,"end":127.434,"text":"才叫做他們所謂的他叫做我們是操縱匯率國所以他才要用高關稅來懲罰但是這三個這是我今天要請教你的第一項我們沒話講他說貿易順差在200億美元這個我們沒話講他說第二點說巨額的經常性"},{"start":137.234,"end":163.354,"text":"經常漲的順差他說順差金額高過GDP的3%這個部分我們現在也超過了這個我是沒話講但是第三點我們這個淨值的部分我們不是都整天都在買匯每天都在買匯我們是為了匯率的穩定我們往往也賣匯不是嗎所以在這一個部分我認為淨額的部分這個"},{"start":167.677,"end":192.856,"text":"我覺得我們努力而且有操作的空間之下所以我認為我們不必不必為美國之命侍從因為他訂了三項的標準那我們在這當中當然我們要為我們全民為我們國家的生計著想所以我認為第三點我想第三點"},{"start":195.818,"end":220.392,"text":"這個我們重複進外匯這個部分我們有超過嗎就我知道這樣是沒有嘛不是嗎委員分析的非常正確就是說因為我們第一項第二項我們長期以來我們就都是超過了那第三項的這個部分呢你剛剛也講到就是說事實上中央銀行呢前一陣子都是在賣匯"},{"start":221.753,"end":225.777,"text":"現在因為你也強調是進額 他也是強調進額 沒有錯所以也就是說中央銀行也不是說遵守因為我們也有我們的mandate 我們也有我們的職責所以剛剛委員做這樣的分析確實是沒有錯的 是沒有錯的"},{"start":241.946,"end":258.263,"text":"所以我是希望說中央銀行現在的首要任務就是要頂住頂住各方的壓力頂住各方的譴責罵聲我覺得就是簡單講中央銀行繼續做"},{"start":262.627,"end":272.191,"text":"過去幾十年來你們該做的你們該做的那個委員分析的是沒有錯啦好不好我們會接受你的建議也就是我剛剛說的那兩項那兩項你該做"},{"start":278.653,"end":289.101,"text":"就是要去做第二點對於說這個主權基金的事情我的看法導致認為我認為啦我們有這麼龐大5838億的外匯存底那麼其實"},{"start":295.425,"end":307.93,"text":"如果要設主權基金我們當然用外匯存體這是理所當然只是我非常同意說外匯存體不能無償撥用而且也應該先立專法"},{"start":312.031,"end":324.015,"text":"所以這一個部分我不曉得你的看法怎麼樣因為你的看法還是認為說這個是不是財政部國外的例子說財政部申去發債券那由財政部再來撥款那你的看法呢"},{"start":327.976,"end":341.846,"text":"是 我覺得委員你所分析的跟我們的報告應該是幾乎是差不多這個同樣的意見啦事實上你的分析是沒有錯的啦是沒有錯的用外匯存底來成立這是正確的這是正確的事情你看像我們鄰近的國家 韓國 馬來西亞 香港"},{"start":351.853,"end":381.113,"text":"他們都是 除了中國以外他們馬來西亞 香港 韓國不但用外匯存底而且他們這個組織機構他們這幾年來他們的操作都很成功更何況我們外匯存底因為為了安全跟穩定而言我們那個資息其實不高啦我們平均大概2.6%嘛那你看這幾個國家你看人家連香港喔"},{"start":382.754,"end":402.768,"text":"連香港他獲利都大概5.8%左右5.8%左右你看在我這一份的說明這是引用經濟日報香港他們這20年期間竟然都可以維持5.8%的報酬率等於是我們這個"},{"start":405.075,"end":426.217,"text":"外匯存底平均支息的兩倍以上所以這個部分我希望說我們央行就堅持住這一點就是堅持不要無常包容就好但是要由外匯存底來這個成立這個國家發展基金那至於組折機關"},{"start":428.035,"end":449.436,"text":"提了這四個機關我不是認為說那兩個機關就不好不是啦另外那兩個機關齁其實有他們努力的地方但是我認為由央行或者財政部來做組織機關這個比較精準啦比較精準因為畢竟國發會"},{"start":451.698,"end":471.904,"text":"跟這個經濟部他們有時候思考必須比較活躍也會比較跳躍式啦但是在這個主權基金這個部分的維護管理控制的部分我還是認為要央行跟財政部"},{"start":472.544,"end":499.527,"text":"但是我看到你們兩央郎跟財政部的報告裡面你們兩個都推來推去都好像互相都不太願意所以這個部分總裁你看法呢事實上委員的這個過想事實上跟我們裡面好像是沒有講得很清楚我們意思就是說事實上你成立了主權基金的時候你上面會有一個board"},{"start":500.649,"end":516.241,"text":"有一個Board有一個就是說是就像董事會或理事會那在這裡面呢中央銀行會介入中央銀行會參與會參與那其他部會其他的部會也可以參與"},{"start":518.386,"end":521.508,"text":"所以你就說那個財政部事實上財政部也要參與啊莊銀行也不容辭我們也可以在這個部裡面我們也可以參與那這樣的意思誰來主導那這個就說對對對所以這個就問題就在這裡也就是說就我們的立場來看的話呢就主權基金這是政府的"},{"start":539.483,"end":546.943,"text":"那政府的中央銀行是可以參與但是我們應該就是說是應該是由政府自己來那個那我們來參與"},{"start":549.417,"end":577.811,"text":"他是由他來主掌中央銀行就是政府的一個重大部門耶中央銀行不能置外於政府所以政府來主導啊是他政府的哪一個單位中央銀行主責還是財政部那這個就由行政院來決定了行政院決定所以行政院怎麼決定總裁你這邊跟財政部這邊就怎麼接受"},{"start":579.741,"end":607.471,"text":"對啊 應該是啊應該是這樣 可是我希望說在這個部分 既然外匯存底是由央行來主導 主控那我希望央行在這個部分能夠更主動一點當然財政部也有很多這一部分的專業的人才但是所以啊 我推崇財政部跟央行但是互相就不要"},{"start":608.471,"end":620.789,"text":"這麼客氣啦 不要互相推來推去啦 好嗎那外匯的部分 我希望你堅持到底好不好好 委員的建議非常好 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沒有"},{"start":123.943,"end":138.214,"text":"你認為他沒有弄匯率的問題沒有沒有總裁很簡單我想問個簡單的問題是在台美貿易談判正在如火如荼的進行中你覺得匯率會不會是貿易談判的一個障礙或者是該不該在裡面不會不會"},{"start":139.355,"end":142.098,"text":"那你認為台美之間匯率不是問題也不是貿易障礙的壁壘也沒有任何問題所以不需要跟美國談我跟委員報告就是說剛好就是這個關稅"},{"start":156.271,"end":157.211,"text":"我跟委員報告啦我們一直在強調就是說"},{"start":177.937,"end":199.592,"text":"我們跟美國財政部的溝通你們跟美國財政部的溝通很好但是跟美國貿易代表處的溝通不怎麼好我們談我跟委員報告這個他每年都是會兩次固定兩次我知道啦現在你們很厲害但是我說現在台美貿易談判對我個人來說我認為不可能不談"},{"start":200.413,"end":211.424,"text":"也必然會提到只是有沒有公開如果真的要當成我們談判的籌碼之一可以但是要讓國人安心就算是要犧牲掉匯率也要讓國人清理得很好所以我們希望維持台幣的穩定至少讓國人知道它的趨勢跟將來應該怎麼樣的避險"},{"start":226.998,"end":249.671,"text":"台幣動態穩定才是國人安心的保障第二個部分現在台幣升值有很多人受損出口商但是有幾個人應該很高興的就是進口商尤其是我們最高興的應該是幾家國營事業吧我們台電中油買的東西都是用"},{"start":250.871,"end":263.717,"text":"新台幣換美金去買這樣的話他們的虧損是不是可以減少一點對啦也沒有錯所以他會不會是你在匯率調整時候你們出手的好幫手啊變成你的互惠國家隊"},{"start":266.336,"end":292.411,"text":"因為他如果繼續換美金的話他也許可以幫你穩定一些台幣的匯率因為他一年買兩千億的天然氣啊對啦就是說如果說需求跟總裁我的意思是說當匯率在調整的時候我們有人受害有人受賄受賄的產業如果是國營事業他應該要成為他將來他也可能有一天貶值的時候他要花更多的錢去買美金一樣的他應該要做避險"},{"start":293.571,"end":312.823,"text":"這也是我覺得央行跟整個政府團隊都應該要好好一起來規劃在這個升值跟貶值的過程中我們的國營事業既然在這中間有受到衝擊也有受到優惠這些東西應該是總裁應該考慮找他們當你的互惠國家隊"},{"start":315.264,"end":329.371,"text":"他拿去幫你多買點美金你就不用花那麼多錢那個委員是這個建議是非常好啦是他們現在油價要跌啦台電的虧損可能也會彌補啦好接下去我們重點是我希望"},{"start":330.231,"end":351.985,"text":"如果長期的穩定台幣不管它是多少錢都應該很清楚在過程裡面讓所有的廠商有時間去適應甚至有時間政府的補貼可以到位否則像這樣一天兩天就突然急升的情況下我覺得央行還是必須要不管人家要不要罵你出手該有匯率你還是要有一定的作為"},{"start":352.805,"end":375.55,"text":"否則會讓大家擔心說就看著他生然後全世界都知道在生但是我們自己沒有任何一點就看看他在生事實上我們也有適當的感覺你有動啦但是沒人看到大家就覺得是不是你沒動好我還是希望不要變成是被質疑或被讓大家自己去面對這件事情很重要接下來我們有請國發會的"},{"start":382.076,"end":399,"text":"主權基金是民眾黨的政見而且在上個會期我們提出法案上一屆吳欣怡委員也提出法案所以現在突然間本來"},{"start":400.512,"end":418.784,"text":"行政院給我們的答案就是我們已經有了然後央行繼續把外匯存體委員會投資比例提高就好了而且國發基金跟台商公司也有了怎麼現在又冒出來支持所謂的主權基金我想問一下就是百年大計還是現在只是應付立法院或者是應付關稅的緩兵之計"},{"start":421.802,"end":431.349,"text":"我想那個院長其實他在院長是隨口說說嗎不是他是說衡量現在國家的財力今年1月你給我的報告還是沒有必要"},{"start":433.374,"end":460.022,"text":"應該是說其實這個議題我們一直都有在演繹當中所以三四個月突然間大變化沒有是因為因為現在的國家的財力產業發展還有國際有需要了突然間變得有需要也不是就是卓院長因為其實也是因應另外一個立法委員他在質詢的時候那卓院長其實有說我實施了一年了也沒有聽到你們正確的回答好直接在那個等一下總裁我們民眾黨的版本是主權基金運用"},{"start":462.153,"end":482.741,"text":"所謂的你的外匯存底我知道你一直抵死不從但是外匯存底裡面我們的版本是大概抓10%也就是500多億請問總裁從你的理解裡面你認為主權基金它應該有的規模大概是多少這個我沒有辦法回答你們預計的規模是多少國發會呢"},{"start":490.444,"end":506.528,"text":"目前 如果前十大的話 如果前十大的話大概都會有大概有幾千億不過他們每個組員已經開始的時候我們有五百億的話大概排名第三十名啦但是以你們之前告訴我說台山公司的部分他只有四百億台幣啦"},{"start":508.449,"end":532.328,"text":"因為台山基金不是家族權基金的所以我的意思是說你們之前跟我說台山已經有啦我怕今天也有啦其實如果我們要救資金的來源的確要利益專法所以我希望我們民眾黨的版本我們希望跟你們討論我們放在中央銀行法裡面修因為我們認為專法就叫做患不自已而且專法可能就是以拖待變的藉口"},{"start":532.868,"end":542.853,"text":"中央銀行不想要自己管但是借他的錢沒意見但是借他的錢拿出來用的話他要有償嘛 總裁要有償嘛 不可以無償借用嘛你要有償 那請問如果我們真的要撥這些錢出來的話國發會還有央行你們對這筆錢要用舉債的方式發債嗎"},{"start":554.861,"end":579.99,"text":"對啦 我們要發債來跟你借錢就對了那個就是說他因為主權財經財是分五的規模多少規模多少基金撥用的方式基金還款的方式你們有答案了嗎國發會央行總裁已經講了啦他不會無償借你錢啦你是要發債嗎"},{"start":581.03,"end":607.341,"text":"委員其實各界還有不同的想法跟看法所以你們只是隨口說說我們要凝聚社會的共識那我們社會的共識我們這個版本已經提出來三四年了很多的內容都已經公開很久了可以參考我們的版本可以討論但是之前說不行的理由現在不存在了就以後不要再拿出來鬼扯了好嗎是因為其實也"},{"start":608.534,"end":628.162,"text":"情勢變了所以主權基金是政府考慮的內容但是不能去否定大家對於主權基金這樣子的規劃我們會集各界的意見我們來通盤考量所以我還是講這是百年大計不要做成緩兵之計也就是說主權基金是一個國家長期發展很重要的"},{"start":629.343,"end":629.363,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1150,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時45分）謝謝主席，我先請總裁。"],["主席：總裁請。"],["楊總裁金龍：黃委員早。"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁，這兩天大家對臺幣的匯率都非常關心，你也講了非常多話，這次升值大家沒有辦法承擔的原因是它升得太快，你可以同意嗎？因為短短幾天內就大幅升值，然後我們沒有看到央行出手，所以大家對央行有一些疑慮。我想問一下，原因找到了沒？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們也不是沒有出手啦，是有啦，我剛剛……"],["黃委員珊珊：原因找到了沒？"],["楊總裁金龍：原因最主要的還是他的預期心理，認為臺幣會轉強嘛。"],["黃委員珊珊：有人是禿鷹嘛，然後美國沒有施壓嘛……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：然後臺灣央行也沒有介入嘛，答案是這樣，是嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：所謂的「沒有介入」，你的意思是說我們沒有適度調節嗎？"],["黃委員珊珊：你們沒有調整嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：有啊！有，我們有調節。"],["黃委員珊珊：有，好，所以大幅升值……"],["楊總裁金龍：美國沒有施壓，這個我一直在澄清，那……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以，總裁，我可以說30塊現在守住了嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：有關於匯率，我只能跟委員報告，匯率有升有貶，但目前是供需……"],["黃委員珊珊：可不可以說30塊叫做楊金龍防線？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，也不會，也不會啦，因為我還會……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有？好，所以新臺幣匯率長期會怎樣，你的判斷是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：匯率還是由供需決定，有升也有貶，升的時候升，貶的時候……"],["黃委員珊珊：供需決定？所以，總裁，全世界都知道川普在玩關稅遊戲啦……"],["楊總裁金龍：是是是。"],["黃委員珊珊：關稅遊戲玩下去，你覺得長期會怎麼樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得美國他要這個關稅政策……"],["黃委員珊珊：他有很多的金融工具，他有關稅，他有美元，他最大的還有美債……"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我才會說現在目前，他已經針對關稅來……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以沒有保匯率的問題？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：你認為他沒有弄匯率的問題，但是……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁，很簡單，我想問個簡單的問題，臺美貿易談判正在如火如荼的進行中，你覺得匯率會不會是貿易談判的一個障礙？或者是該不該在裡面談？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會、不會、不會，我還是就是說……"],["黃委員珊珊：你認為臺美之間匯率不是問題，也不是貿易障礙的壁壘，也沒有任何問題，所以不需要跟美國談？"],["楊總裁金龍：不，我跟委員報告，剛好就是關稅的談判……"],["黃委員珊珊：就是我們從來也沒有跟美國談過匯率的問題？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，要強調的一點就是……"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁，我的時間很有限啦！我就直接說……"],["楊總裁金龍：是是是。好。"],["黃委員珊珊：你認不認為在貿易談判的時候，匯率臺灣跟美國要不要談，或者是我們要不要參與，或者是你央行要不要派員嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，我們一直在強調的就是，我們跟美國財政部的溝通非常良好……"],["黃委員珊珊：你們跟美國財政部的溝通很好……"],["楊總裁金龍：非常良好，所以我們談……"],["黃委員珊珊：但是跟美國貿易代表處的溝通不怎麼好？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們談……跟委員報告，它每年都會固定兩次，談的議題……"],["黃委員珊珊：我知道啦！總裁，你們很厲害，但是我說現在臺美貿易談判，對我個人來說，我認為不可能不談，也必然會提到，只是有沒有公開，如果真的要當成我們談判的籌碼之一，可以但是要讓國人安心。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有。對對，所以我才……"],["黃委員珊珊：就算要犧牲掉匯率，也要讓國人清楚地知道。"],["楊總裁金龍：不會啦！不會啦！所以我才會一開始的時候就說……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們希望維持臺幣的穩定，至少讓國人知道它的趨勢跟將來應該怎麼樣避險，這不是只有央行的責任，也是國家的責任。"],["楊總裁金龍：讓新臺幣動態穩定，這是我們的職責……"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，穩定的臺幣才是讓國人安心的保障。"],["楊總裁金龍：是是是，沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個部分，現在臺幣升值有很多人就是出口商受損，但是有幾個人應該很高興的就是進口商……"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦、是啦。"],["黃委員珊珊：尤其最高興的應該是我們幾家國營事業吧，我們台電、中油買的東西都是用新臺幣換美金去買，這樣的話，他們的虧損是不是可以減少一點？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以它會不會是你在匯率調整的時候，你們出手的好幫手，變成你的護匯國家隊？因為它如果繼續換美金的話，也許可以幫你穩定住一些臺幣的匯率，因為它一年買2,000億的天然氣。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，就是說如果需求跟供給……"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁，我的意思是說，當匯率在調整的時候，我們有人受害，有人受惠，受惠的產業如果是國營事業，它應該要成為……將來可能有一天貶值的時候，它要花更多的錢去買美金，一樣的，它應該要做避險。"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對。"],["黃委員珊珊：這也是我覺得央行跟整個政府團隊都應該要好好一起來規劃的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是。"],["黃委員珊珊：在這個升值跟貶值的過程中，我們的國營事業在這中間有受到衝擊也有受到優惠，這些東西應該是……總裁應該考慮找他們當你的護匯國家隊。"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上，我跟委員……"],["黃委員珊珊：讓它去幫你多買點美金，你就不用花那麼多錢。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員這個建議是非常好啦。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，他們現在油價要跌啦，台電的虧損可能也會彌補啦。"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來我們的重點是，我希望如果長期地穩定臺幣，不管它是多少錢，都應該很清楚，在過程裡面讓所有廠商有時間去適應，甚至有時間讓政府的補貼可以到位，否則像這樣一天、兩天就突然急升的情況下，我覺得央行還是必須有作為，不管人家要不要罵你出手干預匯率，你還是要有一定的作為，否則會讓大家擔心說，就看著它升，然後全世界都知道在升，但是我們自己沒有任何應變。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有啦！沒有說就看它在升，事實上我們也有做適當的調節。"],["黃委員珊珊：你有動啦，但是沒人看到，大家就覺得是不是你沒動？我還是希望不要變成被質疑或是讓大家自己去面對，這件事情很重要。"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來我們也請國發會。"],["主席：副主委。"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁你也要在，因為是談主權基金。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：兩位，我想主權基金是民眾黨的政見，而且在上個會期我們提出法案，上一屆吳欣盈委員也提出法案，現在突然間……本來行政院給我們的答案就是我們已經有了，然後央行繼續把外匯存底委外投資比例提高就好了，而且國發基金跟台杉公司也有了，怎麼現在又冒出來支持所謂的主權基金？我想問一下，這是百年大計，還是現在只是應付立法院，或者是應付關稅的緩兵之計？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想院長其實上次他在立法院有表示……"],["黃委員珊珊：院長是隨口說說嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：不是，他是說衡量現在國家的財力……"],["黃委員珊珊：今年1月你給我的報告還是沒有必要欸。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：應該是說其實這個議題我們一直都有在研議當中。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以三、四個月突然間大變化？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：沒有，是因為現在國家的財力、產業發展，還有國際局勢……"],["黃委員珊珊：有需要了？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：突然間變得有需要？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：也不是，其實也是因應另外一個立法委員在質詢的時候，卓院長有作這樣的表示。"],["黃委員珊珊：我質詢1年了，也沒有聽到你們正確的回答。等一下，總裁，我們民眾黨的版本是主權基金，運用所謂的你的外匯存底，我知道你一直抵死不從，但是外匯存底裡面，我們的版本是大概抓10%，也就是五百多億，請問總裁，就你的理解裡面，你認為主權基金應該有的規模大概是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我沒辦法回答，我沒辦法回答委員的……"],["黃委員珊珊：副主委，你們預計的規模是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我就……"],["黃委員珊珊：國發會呢？你們的構想是多少？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：如果前十大的話大概有幾千億，不過，他們每個主權基金開始的時候金額都不一定。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們如果是500億的話，大概排名第30名啦，但是以你們之前告訴我說台杉公司的部分，它只有400億臺幣，連10億都不到啦。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：因為台杉基金不是國家主權基金的……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以我的意思是說，你們之前跟我說，台杉已經有啦！國發基金已經有啦！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：報告委員，其實如果我們要就資金的來源，的確要立專法來做才有可能執行。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以對於我們民眾黨的版本，我們希望跟你們討論，我們是放在中央銀行法裡面修，因為我們認為專法就叫做緩不濟急，而且專法可能就是以拖待變的藉口。中央銀行不想要自己管，借它的錢沒意見，但是借它的錢拿出來用的話要有償，總裁，要有償，不能無償借用嘛，你要有償，那請問如果我們真的要撥這些錢出來的話，國發會還有央行，你們對這筆錢要用舉債的方式發債嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，所以就是說……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們要發債來跟你借錢就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為主權財富基金是政府的……"],["黃委員珊珊：規模多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該是跟中央銀行的資產負債表要分開……"],["黃委員珊珊：規模多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：規模多少這個是……"],["黃委員珊珊：基金撥用的方式、基金還款的方式，你們有答案了嗎？國發會，央行總裁已經講了，他不會無償借你錢，你是要發債嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員，其實各界還有不同的想法跟看法，所以我們會凝聚社會的共識。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你們只是隨口說說？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：不是、不是，我們要凝聚社會的共識。"],["黃委員珊珊：社會的共識？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們這個版本已經提出來三、四年了，很多內容都已經公開很久了，你可以參考我們的版本，可以討論，但是之前說不行的理由現在不存在了，以後就不要再拿出來鬼扯了，好嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，因為情勢也不同了。"],["黃委員珊珊：情勢變了，所以主權基金是政府考慮的內容，但是不能去否定大家對於主權基金這樣子的規劃。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們會彙集各界的意見，我們來通盤考量。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我還是要講，這是百年大計，不要做成緩兵之計，也就是說，主權基金是一個國家長期發展很重要的來源，尤其是其他國家已經有成功的案例。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，我想院長也表示……"],["黃委員珊珊：你們怎麼樣讓它不要像國發基金一樣，投資一些亂七八糟、血本無歸的也就算了，還投資到一些犯罪集團。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我覺得委員這樣說有點不太公平，對國發基金來說。"],["黃委員珊珊：有一些狀況，所以要更完整的管理，尤其是由央行來做把關，我們是比較放心的，好嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員的質詢，下一位請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城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或者是不設"},{"start":239.909,"end":257.895,"text":"這個跟委員報告基本上我們要配合行政院的政策基本上我們財政部沒辦法因為這是跨部會的事因為你們都參與其中在討論嗎對 這跨部會的事所以還沒有定點在什麼時間要配合行政院的政策配合行政院的政策好 李警衛最後本期邀請央行"},{"start":269.238,"end":275.262,"text":"我本席辦公室在兩週前就已經關切的我們外資的這個熱錢進出台灣市場的潛在異常情況當時詢問關於整個資金流動的監理作為一直到了5月6號您終於說了已發現突應的蹤跡"},{"start":292.415,"end":307.165,"text":"而且他出去時是慢吞吞那外匯的這個蔡局長他也進一步表示近期有針對於保管銀行以及遠期外匯避險廠商啟動了全面的一個徹查"},{"start":308.306,"end":334.664,"text":"那麼央郎本身你也掌控了熱錢流入流出的即時動態那在即時介入防範這個草匯套利跟違反的停泊行為那反觀本席在兩週前就已經提示出但是我們到現在才啟動專案精檢那是不是我們整個在制度面裡頭有明顯的這個落後 請說明"},{"start":338.367,"end":341.65,"text":"對 我想到委員就是說是不是我們明顯的落後應該是還好啦我們如果說就我們自己的一個判斷來講的話還好啦沒有就是說是明顯的落後啦沒有明顯就是還好 還好就是還是有討論的空間因為當時提出你們都說沒有沒有"},{"start":362.386,"end":380.178,"text":"我現在就說所謂的還好就是說這個議題我們看到的時候我們馬上就去注意它了然後我們第二個我們就趕快配合經檢去更深入的了解所以我覺得到目前為止經過幾天以後我們都覺得就是說外資進來他買股票他就買股票了"},{"start":387.623,"end":397.527,"text":"所以沒有就像我們上一次所發現到的他進來了以後他就parking在那邊所以呢我才會就是說這個parking在那邊停泊一週以上是屬於不正常的對不對以在這個目前的情況來講的話呢停泊在那邊一週我是覺得不正常"},{"start":406.03,"end":424.866,"text":"所以我們本來就是設定如此是不正常的所以我們在這個同伯添書當然我們已經很明顯的設定你認為不正常就是一週很清楚這個時間點所以在我們的處置機制這個機制裡頭我們更應當要嚴謹我們有如同委員所說的我們是會更嚴謹更嚴謹一定要更嚴謹謝謝會會會謝謝"},{"start":435.236,"end":436.1,"text":"好 謝謝原委員的資訊 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謝謝今天看了這個部長的報告前面的部分是針對於我們在長照的照護部分的確在過去"},{"start":29.822,"end":55.757,"text":"從那個小英總統到現任的賴總統真的做了非常多的努力不只經費大幅的增加而且這個服務的據點也大幅的擴充同時也贏得了非常好的滿意度表示說這個政策是非常的正確而且服務到該照顧的人民因為我們也知道進入到超高齡社會的確長照尤其是高齡者的協助照顧真的是非常非常的重要"},{"start":57.109,"end":75.882,"text":"這部分就在根據後判斷需要注意的事情跟部長這邊再來做討論我們也知道其實長照過程裡面很重要就是疾病本身帶來一些照顧上的問題包括林書文也提到中風"},{"start":76.903,"end":101.373,"text":"尤其是年輕人的送風如何能夠協助他們能夠穩定病情那同時得到好的復健最後能夠回歸到家庭回歸到社會持續對臺灣有所貢獻所以在極限期極限後期的照護到緩加以後呢這個都需要非常好的銜接才能把這個事情做好所以PAC就是極限後期的照護如果能夠做得好的話就能夠"},{"start":102.713,"end":130.511,"text":"讓後面的這個長照可以得到很好的改善對於醫療跟整個國家的這個資源的幫助一定是非常非常明顯我想部長一定會很確認這個觀點那再過來我們還是希望照顧不中斷的原則之下那如何針對於持續要努力的長照3.0醫療長照的這個照顧整合能夠做資訊整合的無縫接軌那"},{"start":131.832,"end":153.873,"text":"剛剛也有提到那如果我們要擴大這個照顧量能的話那上游跟乘坐醫院的負荷我們如何能夠同時來兼顧那最後就是有關於長照這個醫療這個資源的布局跟銜接這個都是為了我們要共同努力的地方其實資訊整合我相信大家都非常非常的"},{"start":155.614,"end":180.568,"text":"認為是重中之重尤其需要有更好的一個資訊整合的模式那醫療照顧整合依據部長你們今天提供的第七頁有關於醫療照顧整合的資訊的部分醫療跟照顧將透過大家醫計畫來整合在宅醫療在宅責任醫療等等來建構資訊管理平臺"},{"start":182.209,"end":194.162,"text":"那這個是希望透過大家的計畫來建置這個資訊管理平臺可是我們現在看到的就是PAC這兩個是不一樣的計畫那這樣的資訊平臺未來可以共用嗎"},{"start":197.165,"end":219.58,"text":"在處理上我們需要再注意哪一些的事情這個是我們很擔心如果他只偏待大家一計畫的所建置的這個資訊管理平臺那未來在針對長照PAC的銜接會不會造成資訊上的一些落差變成一個資訊孤島那如果這個落差存在的話"},{"start":220.461,"end":237.941,"text":"那我們的這個A個案管理如何能夠正確的落實讓他在這個服務裡面這麼關鍵的一個銜接工作能夠有效的來落實那這部分部長您的意見怎麼樣好 謝謝委員提出的非常重要的關鍵的點我們在3.0方向"},{"start":241.565,"end":270.222,"text":"就是把醫療跟長照結合不漏接每一個需要的人甚至讓他更加的富能能夠恢復正常提高生活的品質所以資訊的整合才能夠避免剛剛您提的資訊孤島或者重複的資源的浪費那這個部分在社區過去20年來我們健保署跟衛生部跟政府在社區醫療群的一個"},{"start":271.602,"end":296.859,"text":"資訊的努力方面其實已經下了很大的功夫那以這樣的一個基礎我是覺得是最聰明跟最有效率的來結合後續不管是更多的預防保健長照的工作以這樣來講是最好的一個方向那至於現在實際上怎麼做是不是我們請健保署署長可以補充一下"},{"start":297.219,"end":325.145,"text":"好 委員好現在是這樣我們先雖然叫做大嘉義計畫可是它後面有一個資訊系統叫做嘉義大平台那最主要它就是以人為中心把它的資料整合不論你在哪一個醫療院所看的資料以人為中心整合在一起那同時把預防保健包含CDC國健署的這些預防保健的資料也都整合起來所以是以人歸人歸戶的概念那我們現在先做到的是醫療這一塊"},{"start":326.425,"end":355.785,"text":"那接著我們就要去接長照服務那一塊所以等於是我們後面有一個平台一個資訊平台在做整合啦資訊的整合所以我們下一步現在正在跟長照系統這邊嘗試要把它也把它歸人進來以人為中心做整合因為這個人會變化嘛他本來過去可能是在家庭醫師計畫裡面有一天他中風了他就失能了所以其實他是一個連續性的所以我們才會以一個才不會"},{"start":356.605,"end":383.558,"text":"變成過去這樣好多個系統對其實我們很期待就是透過這樣的資訊平台當一位病患或者是當他要回到社區的時候他可以透過AI的這些媒合的模式他要到哪一個據點他應該執行哪一方面的復健或者是回家以後如何安排相關的一些就是從點對點的這種服務模式這樣的話才能夠完整至少就是"},{"start":384.298,"end":398.474,"text":"以人為本的服務模式這個是很期待透過這一次的這個計畫能夠把這方面可以持續的來落實那我們再看再過來就是說有關於這個成長部分因為當初的"},{"start":400.141,"end":422.948,"text":"成長的預估是3.85%根據這個長照的需求那PAC的部分如果我們要擴大這個不管是年齡的放寬早發現的失智或者是未滿65歲的中風那林書分委一直強調小於40歲的中風的這個族群已經占到將近15%那如何能夠讓這樣的服務量能"},{"start":426.263,"end":442.815,"text":"在考慮增加的同時也能夠造成因為醫院的負擔的情形之下如何能夠去改善它那人力跟復健的這個部分是不是能夠跟得上支付誘因是不是能夠平衡在這部分不知道部長或署長有沒有規劃"},{"start":445.206,"end":466.192,"text":"因為這個部分我們很感謝在健保方面都一直配合在做處理跟委員說明一下以目前我們參加PAC的乘坐醫院大概203家那他們的戰床率現在大概是差不多五成而已所以其實病床空間是有"},{"start":466.812,"end":489.928,"text":"那現在接下來當然要調整的就是說他的服務上的那些人力啦人力的標準啊那些搭配著支付標準我們再來檢討不過呢還是得要有一些條件不然就會變成住院的延長我們的PAC還是希望他是有復健的潛能的才進PAC的Program"},{"start":490.228,"end":505.151,"text":"不然還是應該要到長照不然就會變成我們PAC有三個月最長可以12週以後都變成延長住院的概念也不對所以我們再來檢討看看適用上條件的這個調整我們再來檢討"},{"start":506.776,"end":533.257,"text":"因為我們也知道203家這樣的這個PAC的團隊可是資源相對可能都會集中在人口集中的都會區所以如何能夠讓這個區域的缺口根據這個需要鼓勵不管是中銜或小銜的醫院地區醫院等等來增加這方面的服務模式還有剛剛也提到其實包括復健師或者是其他相關的這些人才的"},{"start":533.897,"end":561.308,"text":"留置在這個比較偏遠的地方也都是很重要需要請部裡面或者是書裡面這邊來加強處理的部分也希望在未來的規劃上也把這些都考量進來那再過來就是有關於這個積極賦能我們剛有提到其實如果這些在急性期當中能夠積極賦能的話對於未來的這些所需要的資源就可以大幅的下降"},{"start":562.208,"end":575.061,"text":"那飲食呢事實上就是讓積極富農裡面在營養的補充得到最好的一個支持的部分我們也知道在日本他們對這個非常非常的重視所以在2002年他們就"},{"start":577.663,"end":601.837,"text":"根據這個日本接戶食品協議會去提供非常多的標章的處置或者是協助社會如何能夠知道在需要比較主角能力下降或者是需要有其他方式來進食的民眾有很好的資訊來得到好的這個相關的幫忙跟支持那這部分台灣相對來講"},{"start":603.018,"end":626.812,"text":"是沒有那麼樣的進展那麼樣的這個順利所以未來是不是能夠麻煩我們部裡面或者相關的單位能夠針對於這個長照通用設計飲食不管是提供指引也好或者是提供各類的要求讓質地的這個分布可以更符合民眾的期待在處理上有更精進的做法那這部分"},{"start":627.492,"end":650.9,"text":"需要的是長照師國健署甚至是營養單位共同來努力那這部分就要麻煩部長來要求相關單位來把這個部分可以精進的做進一步讓國民尤其是需要這一類食品的老人家也好或者是針對這個口腔組結能力變得不好的民眾可以有效的得到指引"},{"start":653.373,"end":680.199,"text":"那個謝謝委員能夠關心到這個病人或者是長照的人的一個飲食的狀況因為如果能夠好好的指導他怎麼飲食或者是口腔的衛生把他照顧好然後選擇他想吃的食物以及他可以吃的食物其實我們可以讓我們的病人或者是我們的長者不需要去甕個鼻胃管"},{"start":680.999,"end":694.775,"text":"或是不必要的人工輸液營養這是非常重要的照顧的一個模式那這個都就是要有相關的人員的訓練當然以家屬的照顧來講我們也希望有指引"},{"start":696.056,"end":719.597,"text":"就像日本這樣子 日本在這方面真的是相當先進 值得我們來學習那我們國建署的確也做出了一個比較一般老者長者的一個食品的指引我們未來會把它弄成更個別化來努力那預計什麼時候會是台灣無管人生的元年無管的喔就沒有管制的人生"},{"start":720.237,"end":739.014,"text":"我們從30年前就立下誓言,表示只要安年緩和醫療的專業能夠更加的發揮,讓我們對長者照顧的模式能夠更加的有專業,我相信應該有更多的長者或病人"},{"start":739.815,"end":753.609,"text":"不太需要去用到不必要痛苦的鼻胃管這是我們台灣人性化很重要的一個里程碑感謝王委員多年來的努力"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":676,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時32分）謝謝主席，請邱部長。"],["主席：部長，請。"],["王委員正旭：難得臺下有這麼多委員同時在場，在這個質詢的過程當中，我們共同來努力。謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：今天看了部長的報告，銜接前面的部分是針對於我們在長照的照護部分，的確過去從小英總統到現任的賴總統真的做了非常多的努力，不只經費大幅的增加，而且服務據點也大幅的擴充，同時也贏得非常好的滿意度，表示這個政策非常的正確，而且也服務到該照顧的人民。因為我們也知道，進入到超高齡社會後，的確長照、尤其是高齡者的協助照顧，真的是非常非常的重要，這部分我就根據後半段需要注意的事情跟部長來做討論。"],["邱部長泰源：好，請指教。"],["王委員正旭：我們也知道，其實長照過程裡面很重要的就是疾病本身帶來的一些照護上的問題，包括林淑芬委員提到的中風，尤其是年輕人的中風，如何協助他們能夠穩定病情，同時得到好的復健，最後能夠回歸到家庭、回歸到社會，持續對臺灣有所貢獻。所以在急性期、急性後期照護到返家以後都需要非常好的銜接，才能把這個事情做好，所以PAC（急性後期之醫療整合照護）如果能夠做得好的話，就能夠讓後面的長照可以得到很好的改善，對於醫療跟整個國家資源的幫助一定是非常非常明顯，我想部長也一定會確認這個觀點。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["王委員正旭：再過來，我們還是希望在照顧不中斷的原則之下，如何持續努力於長照3.0醫療照顧整合的資訊整合無縫接軌，剛剛也有提到，如果我們要擴大照顧的量能，上游跟承作醫院的負荷如何能夠同時兼顧，最後就是有關於長照醫療整體資源的布局跟銜接，這個都是未來我們要共同努力的地方。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["王委員正旭：其實資訊整合，我相信大家都非常非常認同這是重中之重，尤其需要有更好的資訊整合模式。在醫療照護整合的部分，依據部長今天提供的報告第7頁「醫療照顧整合」的資訊部分提到，醫療與照顧將透過「大家醫計畫」整合在宅醫療、在宅責任醫療等等，並建構資訊管理平臺，你們是希望透過大家醫計畫來建置資訊管理平臺，可是我們現在看到的就是PAC，這兩個是不一樣的計畫，這樣的資訊平臺未來可以共用嗎？在處理上，我們需要再去注意哪一些事情？我們很擔心如果他只偏賴大家醫計畫所建置的資訊管理平臺，未來在針對長照PAC的銜接會不會造成資訊上的落差，變成一個資訊孤島？如果這個落差存在的話，我們的這個A個案管理如何能夠正確地落實？如何在這個服務裡面讓這麼關鍵的一個銜接工作能夠有效地來落實？對於這個部分，部長，您的意見怎麼樣？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員提出非常重要的關鍵點，我們在3.0的方向就是把醫療跟長照結合，不漏接每一個需要的人，甚至讓他更加的復能，能夠恢復正常，提高生活的品質，所以資訊的整合才能夠避免剛剛您提的資訊孤島或者重複的資源浪費。關於這個部分，過去二十年來，健保署、衛福部及政府在社區醫療群的資訊的努力方面，其實已經下了很大的功夫，以這樣的一個基礎，我覺得是最聰明跟最有效率的來結合。後續不管是更多的預防保健以及長照的工作，以這樣來講是最好的一個方向。至於現在實際上怎麼做，是不是請健保署署長補充一下？"],["石署長崇良：委員好，現在是這樣，我們雖然叫做大家醫計畫，可是後面有一個資訊系統叫做家醫大平臺，最主要就是以人為中心，把他的資料整合，不論你在哪一個醫療院所看的資料，以人為中心整合在一起，那同時把預防保健，包含CDC、國健署的這些預防保健資料也都整合起來，所以是歸人歸戶的概念。我們現在先做到的是醫療這一塊，接著我們就要去接長照服務那一塊，所以等於是我們後面有一個資訊平臺在做資訊的整合，我們下一步正在跟長照系統這邊嘗試也把它歸人進來，以人為中心去做整合，因為這個人會變化嘛，他過去可能是在家庭醫師計畫裡面，有一天他中風了，就失能了，所以其實這是連續性的，所以我們這樣做才不會像過去那樣好多個系統。"],["王委員正旭：對，其實我們很期待透過這樣的資訊平臺，當一位病患要回到社區的時候，他可以透過AI的媒合模式，他要到哪一個據點、他應該執行哪一方面的復健，或者是回家以後如何安排相關的一些點對點的服務模式，這樣才能夠完整，至少是以人為本的服務模式，我很期待透過這次的計畫能夠把這方面持續的來落實。","再過來就是有關於成長部分，因為當初的成長預估是3.85%，根據這個長照的需求，那PAC的部分，如果我們要擴大長照年齡的放寬，納入早發性的失智或者是未滿65歲的中風，林淑芬委員一直強調小於40歲的中風族群已經占到將近15%，如何能夠讓這樣的服務量能，在考慮增加的同時，也能夠去改善醫院的負擔，人力跟復健的部分是不是能夠跟得上？支付誘因是不是能夠平衡？這部分不知道部長或署長有沒有規劃？"],["邱部長泰源：這個部分我們很感謝健保方面都一直配合在做處理，是不是請石署長報告一下？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員說明一下，目前參加PAC的承作醫院大概203家，他們的占床率現在差不多五成而已，所以其實病床空間是有的。現在接下來要調整的是服務上的人力標準、搭配的支付標準，這部分我們再來檢討，不過還是得要有一些條件，不然就會變成住院的延長，我們還是希望是有復健潛能的才進入PAC的program，不然還是應該要到長照。否則我們的PAC有3個月，最長可以12週，以後都變成延長住院的概念也不對，我們再來檢討看看，適用上條件的調整我們再來做檢討。"],["王委員正旭：好，我們也知道有203家的PAC團隊，可是資源相對可能都集中在人口集中的都會區，所以如何能夠讓區域的缺口根據需要，鼓勵不管是中型或小型醫院、地區醫院等等來增加這方面的服務模式。還有剛剛也提到的，包括復健師或者是其他相關人才留置在比較偏遠的地方也都是很重要的，需要請部裡面或者署裡面來加強處理，也希望在未來的規劃上把這些都考量進來。","再過來就是有關於積極復能的部分，我們剛剛有提到，如果在急性期當中能夠積極復能的話，對於未來所需要的資源就可以大幅下降，飲食事實上就是讓積極復能裡面在營養的補充上得到最好的一個支持。我們也知道，日本對這個部分非常非常的重視，所以在2002年日本食品產業界就成立了日本介護食品協議會，去提供非常多的標章處置，或者是協助社會如何能夠知道，咀嚼能力下降或者是需要透過其他方式來進食的民眾有很好的資訊來得到相關的幫忙跟支持；相對來講，臺灣這部分的進展沒有那麼的順利，所以未來是不是麻煩部裡面或者相關的單位能夠針對長照設計通用飲食，不管是提供指引也好，或者是提供各類的要求，讓食物質地的分布可以更符合民眾的期待，在處理上有更精進的作法，這部分需要的是長照司、國健署、甚至是營養單位共同來努力，麻煩部長要求相關單位精進這個部分並進一步提供，讓國民，尤其是需要這類食品的老人家也好，或者是針對口腔咀嚼能力變得不好的民眾可以有效地得到指引。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員關心到病人或者是長照者的飲食狀況，因為如果能夠好好的指導他怎麼飲食或者是口腔的衛生，把他照顧好，選擇他想吃的食物以及他可以吃的食物，其實就可以讓我們的病人或者長者不需要去插鼻胃管，或是不必要的人工輸液營養，這是非常重要的照顧模式，這個就是要有相關人員的訓練。當然，以家屬的照顧來講，我們也希望有指引，就像日本這樣子，日本在這方面真的是相當先進，值得我們來學習，我們國健署的確也做出了一般長者的食品指引，我們未來會來努力把它弄得更個別化。"],["王委員正旭：預計什麼時候會是臺灣無管人生的元年？"],["邱部長泰源：無管喔？"],["王委員正旭：就是沒有管子的人生。"],["邱部長泰源：我們從30年前就立下誓言，表示只要安寧緩和醫療的專業能夠更加發揮，我們對長者照顧的模式能夠更加專業，我相信應該有更多長者或病人不太需要去用到不必要、痛苦的鼻胃管，這是我們臺灣人性化很重要的一個里程碑，這個部分也感謝王委員多年來的努力。"],["王委員正旭：好，部長加油，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。","現在處理臨時提案，只有1案而已，請宣讀。（參閱附錄）","4月29日、5月6日衛福部食藥署於邊境抽批驗出高達70.24公噸含有「萊克多巴胺」之冷凍澳洲豬腳，經查，食藥署竟未事先赴澳洲查廠就同意肉品進口，並放行於後市場端，完全違反行政院109年11月26日所公布的「進口豬肉之全方位管理措施」。且事發後仍維持2至10%一般抽批檢驗率，未將強度提高至100%逐批查驗，亦未擴大稽查已流入後市場端之肉品，並於清查完畢前要求該業者暫停輸入肉品，使民眾陷於食安風暴之恐慌中。","有鑑於豬肉食品使用範圍廣泛，於市場擴散速度遠較其他食品更為快速，消費者吃下肚後亦難以追蹤，爰要求衛福部食藥署應全面落實行政院109年11月26日公布之「進口豬肉之全方位管理措施」，以維護國人食安健康及消費選擇權：","一、未查廠不給進口：未曾進口來臺的肉品廠，需經我派員查廠後方得進口。","二、逐批查驗：進口豬肉必須逐批查驗。","三、產地標示跟著肉品走：肉品自大到小，從進口商、肉品廠，隨著販售通路，一路下到店頭、攤商，會讓消費者一目瞭然，自由選擇，同時也可清楚溯源追蹤。","四、政府嚴格稽查：不符標準必重罰：對於未依規定標示、標示不實或檢驗不符規定的業者，一律嚴懲重罰。","提案人：王育敏　　陳菁徽　　陳昭姿"],["主席：王委員要不要說明？"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝召委、各位委員還有衛福部官員。我想我提出來的臨時提案，其實只是回到行政院在109年11月26號自己所公布的進口豬肉之全方位管理措施，所有的文字完全都是當時行政院對外公告的四大措施，現在因為從澳洲進口的豬肉含有萊劑，我覺得從109年到現在，我們的確有些作法已經放掉了、太鬆散，因為現在又發現有萊劑的豬肉，所以更應該要全面落實回到109年11月26號行政院自己所公布的全方位管理措施，保障國人的食安。我提案所列的一、二、三、四點都不是我個人意見，完全都是當時行政院所訂下的規範，我相信在執行上面如果政府是一致的，應該在執行上不會有窒礙難行之處，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：行政單位有沒有意見？"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員的提案，針對提案，我們這邊有做一些研擬，4月29日、5月6日衛福部食藥署於邊境抽批驗出高達70.24公噸含有萊克多巴胺之冷凍澳洲豬腳，且事發後仍維持2至10%一般抽批檢驗率，未將強度提高至100%逐批查驗，亦未擴大稽查已流入後市場端之肉品，並於清查完畢前要求該業者暫停輸入肉品，使民眾陷於食安風暴之恐慌中。鑑於豬肉食品使用範圍廣泛等等，特別在國人食品安全、健康消費的選擇權，我們會做以下四點，第一、加強查廠：針對進口來臺的肉品廠，加強派員查廠；第二、加強查驗：進口豬肉提升查驗率；第三、落實產地標示：肉品自大到小，從進口商、肉品廠，隨著販售通路一路下到店頭、攤商，會讓消費者一目瞭然，自由選擇，同時也可清楚標示產地；第四、政府嚴格稽查：不符標準必重罰，對於未依規定標示、標示不實或查驗不符規定的業者，一律嚴懲重罰。以上。"],["王委員育敏：有的委員需要修正的文字對不對？"],["陳委員瑩：你們修正的沒有給各委員看。"],["邱部長泰源：修正的要不要copy給大家？"],["王委員育敏：你們修正的文字可以給其他的委員看。"],["姜署長至剛：趕快給各位委員，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：第一個就是查廠的部分，你們會去查廠嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我們加強查廠，一定會！"],["王委員育敏：所以澳洲的部分會去嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我們會積極的規劃。"],["王委員育敏：好。"],["主席：所以第二點逐批查驗不做，變成加強查驗這樣嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我們一定會加強查驗。"],["邱部長泰源：這有一定的程序，就是說人工智慧，你如果查越多比例就越多，你如果到達某個程度就是百分之百了。但他是逐步用人工智慧，叫做精準查驗，不是說風吹草動就逐批。"],["王委員育敏：那一定要提高啊、一定要提高！這次其實已經查出萊克多巴胺了嘛，所以食藥署一定要提高查驗比例啊，這個可以做嘛？對不對？"],["姜署長至剛：進口豬肉會提升查驗率，這邊有提到。"],["王委員育敏：好，這個提高的部分，我也要求一定要做。然後你剛剛唸的第三點，「溯源追蹤」為什麼要刪除？"],["姜署長至剛：我們會做可以清楚的標示產地，其實意義是一樣的。"],["王委員育敏：那你就保留，有什麼問題嗎？意思一樣，我覺得保留讓大家看起來比較安心吧？就是可以清楚標示產地，溯源追蹤，這樣可以嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我們標示的產地，就會標示是澳洲進口的，因為是豬肉之原產地，就是會標原料之原產地是來自於澳洲、來自於美國、來自於哪個國家、來自於巴拉圭等等，所以會有……"],["王委員育敏：我知道，就保留「溯源追蹤」四個字有什麼問題嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：這兩個有時候不一樣的意思。"],["王委員育敏：對，就是保留，就是「同時也可清楚標示產地，溯源追蹤」，這有什麼問題嗎？為什麼溯源追蹤一定要刪除？我不太懂。如果意思是一樣的，我是建議保留，可以嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我想就按照委員的建議，我們可以保留「溯源追蹤」四個字。"],["王委員育敏：對啊，好不好？越清晰越好嘛。"],["姜署長至剛：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我想要釐清一下，你只標示產地叫做溯源追蹤嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，因為溯源追蹤是食安法第二十五條授權下來的，所以我們根據那樣子的溯源追蹤是已經有對於豬肉的原產地……"],["廖委員偉翔：就是有編號嘛，對不對？它不是原產地……"],["姜署長至剛：有溯源追蹤是從哪邊來的。"],["廖委員偉翔：對、對、對，所以就是它雖然美國是產地，但有不同的廠出來，每一批來的不一樣嘛，所以這是有溯源追蹤？"],["姜署長至剛：有溯源追蹤。"],["廖委員偉翔：OK，好。"],["主席：好，陳昭姿委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：我今天早上第一個質詢，有提出很多的資料，加強是形容詞，加強不是數字，因為2020年行政院講這麼清楚，那幾個國家：加拿大、紐西蘭、美國、澳洲，他們都說沒有，只准美國的萊豬進口，因為我們立了法案，一直到目前為止，他們都說是零檢出，他的這些承諾還在嗎？然後蘇院長說不查廠不准進口，而且當時他說要先逐批查廠，但是我查到當時對於美豬的查廠，事實上都沒有把報告放出來，我催了很久之後，食藥署才把它公告上網；但是非常特別，他查了六家廠，有五家根本不用「萊」的，他去查那個做什麼？只有一家用「萊」的，所以後來我沒有繼續去追蹤這件事，就是說逼著他們把查廠報告放上去。今天我們回到原點，我早上質詢講得很清楚，今天不是法案的問題，法是規定0.01，食藥署說是低於法規的0.01，所以是OK的，但是民眾不要，因為所有民進黨立委，我可以幫你找出至少20個，從老柯算起，當初說零檢出、零檢出、零檢出，因為民眾不要吃萊豬，所以我們確實訂得比國際還要嚴格，但是突然間不知道為什麼國際的標準就悄悄地更動了，讓沒有查廠過的澳洲豬肉也進來，所以我只是要他們兌現當年的承諾，第一點的未查廠不給進口，藥品也是這樣啊！你沒有查過廠，不管你用什麼方式去查廠，不管是書面查廠還是臨場查廠，沒有查廠的東西怎麼可以進口啊？去年的生理食鹽水就是這樣，管理不佳，整個斷貨啊！結果買進來都是沒查廠、沒有許可證的東西，這件事情不能再重演。沒有查廠怎麼准進口？這是什麼時候改變的要先講清楚，現在先講清楚，不然政府就道歉，現在我們就先用，儘量在後端才查。","第二個，逐批檢驗也是蘇貞昌答應的啊！逐批檢驗成效還可以，才慢慢減少，我們不知道為什麼它突然間變成只剩下2%到10%，可是一檢出來量就這麼大。另外，產地標示我一直在講，產地標示是邱部長你們這邊要準備的，產地標示「萊」的含量，這個是被列為……雖然我們要保護我們的食安，你一直在講，但是你們也講不出來到底對川普的談判如何，因為美國要我們買美豬、美牛啊，他不要我們標示原產地，原產地已經被認為說是一個障礙、標標準準的貿易障礙，就不准標示，好，那你現在繼續標示，你要有能耐、有這個本事，去談判的時候你要堅守這個立場。所以我覺得這一次的回復都是形容詞，我個人沒有辦法接受，都是形容詞，什麼叫加強？這個標示的東西，然後加強查驗，加強什麼……現在在規劃，可是那個豬肉都進來了，王委員雖然這樣提，可是我還是堅持第一個，不然你就要道歉，你當初承諾的東西，2020年是行政院的圖卡，而且那時候他是為了很多他們認為是網路上的謠言，還自己做了圖卡，我現在沒有帶在身上，我早上有show給大家看，還特別這樣講。"],["主席：我們現在的查驗差不多幾percent？"],["姜署長至剛：按照我們過去的邊境查察狀況，其實會調整，目前是2%到10%，在10%以下，我們會按照委員的意見做一些提升，以上。"],["主席：那如果要做，要逐批查驗，那量很大。"],["姜署長至剛：對，的確是，邊境的人力目前其實是相當吃緊，一直以來都是這樣的狀況，所以跟委員說明一下，因為行政端訂了一個標準之後，真的是按照那樣子來精準的抽驗，這是我們現在持續能夠努力的，委員有特別提到要提升，我們一定會答應可以提升，以上。"],["主席：那你現在要加強查驗，是差不多要提高到幾percent？差不多大約啦！"],["姜署長至剛：我們其實是希望能夠再往上提升，在下一個階級其實……"],["邱部長泰源：它有一個人工智慧的機制，你如果太多沒過、成績比較差的，我就給你加強功課，成績如果差到一個程度，你就連晚上都要來上課了，就是百分之百了，這個叫做精準查驗。"],["姜署長至剛：報告召委，原來是2%到10%，雖然理論上沒有不及格一樣是2%到10%，因為委員特別提到我們可以到下一個階層即20%到50%，針對澳洲來的牛肉做這樣子的查察，不曉得這樣子的回復是否合宜？"],["邱部長泰源：可能還是要有科學的制度啦！"],["姜署長至剛：對。"],["邱部長泰源：就是你查得怎麼樣，幾percent，如果他的成績比較不好就提升，甚至會提升到100%都有可能，這個就是精準查驗。"],["王委員育敏：因為現在別的國家都沒有查出，就是澳洲的豬肉查出含有萊克多巴胺，當然在你們的行政權裡面，你們自己可以針對高風險、國人疑慮高的，可以優先提高比例，過去向來行政權……我今天才跟你們講過，在你們的施行辦法裡面，食藥署握有非常大的權力，你說要提高就提高，或是你說要百分之百，完全都是你們在決定，那你們就應該要根據今天國會委員的關心、國人的疑慮，針對比較高風險的、有疑慮的去提高，這個就是你們的權限，好不好？"],["姜署長至剛：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：我有問題，可以請問一下嗎？"],["主席：好，請陳委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主席。我想要請食藥署說明一下，因為剛剛陳昭姿委員堅持說零查廠零進口，當時蘇院長的承諾，如果沒有記錯的話，應該是針對美國進口的肉品新設的廠場，對不對？但是這部分你沒有說明，你可不可以說明一下，到底我當時的理解跟剛剛陳委員的說法……好不好？我覺得都還是要給我們一個說明，關於查廠這件事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個圖檔有沒有辦法弄出來？2020年行政院自己的圖卡說，事實是只有美國萊豬會進口，因為他是在反那個謠言，事實是只有美國萊豬會進口，我可以傳給大家，我看現在有什麼方式可以show出來。"],["陳委員培瑜：陳委員，可不可以讓他們說明一下？"],["王委員育敏：恐怕署長也不知道。"],["姜署長至剛：有，我知道。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你早上有認真聽嗎？"],["陳委員培瑜：不是啦，委員，你現在讓他講，現在是我要問問題，我不是問你，我是問食藥署，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：好，讓署長講。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員。我們對於這個部分的了解是在109年11月26號提到的赴美查廠，是針對美國有查廠過後才會進來，這個確實我們有看到。","至於澳洲這部分，容我解釋，就是澳洲豬肉其實很久以前，在行政院農委會防檢局的時候就承諾系統性開放，同意澳洲豬肉輸臺，那時候是基於信賴保護原則，在輸入食品系統新的查驗辦法實施之前它就已經進來了，我們其實是選擇相信就是因為信賴保護，實施之後，我們沒有針對豬，但是整體在澳洲系統是牛、豬、羊、鹿肉採認完整的系統性查驗，考量到對於澳洲牛、豬、羊、鹿肉的產品是依同一個主管機關管理，管理的系統相同，我們有在106年執行過系統性的實地查核，也採認了它的系統性查核，所以112年1月13號簽奉核可之後，這是為什麼澳洲豬肉是可以進口的，進口進來之後出現有萊克多巴胺的，對於貿易廠商裡面哪一家去進口的，我們沒有特別……因為整個系統性查核，所以他們會對接到要進口什麼，我們都尊重。而在後市場端跟邊境，尤其在邊境的時候，同仁很努力的按照標準在抽，有抽到就跟國人公告，也讓委員能夠了解，這是我們現在的作法。以上的說明，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：好。容我補充一下，我想這個議題從第8屆開始，在座如果有第8屆的立法委員可能就會知道，當時是美牛都沒有進口，所以美豬當然也是禁止，所以臺灣過去其實就是禁止萊克多巴胺，我們自己的豬農不能使用，美牛也不可以進來，美豬當然也不能進來，所以在第8屆那時候是全面禁止的情況。","到後來美牛開放，但是牛、豬分離，美豬不能開放，但是到了民進黨執政的時候，美豬要開放，所以當時109年蘇貞昌院長才訂了這個管制措施，要讓大家安心，就是含有萊劑也不能進來。大家如果回過頭去看，剛剛陳昭姿委員講的是對的，陳吉仲主委對外講的時候，他說只有美國的美豬含有萊劑，所以當時的查廠就會特別針對美國，各位，但是現在連澳洲的也含有萊劑，當時農委會告訴大家的是說美國含有萊劑，所以當然是美國查廠，但現在澳洲已經有萊劑，澳洲不查廠嗎？","食安的標準應該是一致的，如果我們回到當時109年行政院所公告的這幾項措施，不會說只有針對美國的美豬要查廠，是因為當時要進口含有萊劑的美豬，所以才特別講美國，因為農委會告訴大家說其他國家都沒有，也不會進來，這樣子大家懂了嗎？所以我們的食安標準應該是一致，當時行政院的管制措施為什麼說沒有查廠的就不進口？他是要給大家安心，就是經過了食藥署的查廠，確定這整個肉品廠是符合安全衛生的，才要放行讓他進來。所以剛剛署長提到的那個脈絡，在更之前，那個跟這個其實是沒有關係，就在109年之後，如果當時蘇貞昌院長、整個行政院做的這個管理措施是對的，我覺得不應該因為時間的推移就放鬆，而是回到109年的管制措施。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝召委。我稍微簡單說明一下，剛才講的第一點加強查廠，為什麼講加強查廠這件事情？因為我剛才問了同仁，我說有經費，不出門嗎？他說：報告署長，你要來籌錢。但是我想我們會把加強查廠排為優先順序，好不好？我想我們會加強……"],["主席：我請問一下，澳洲的豬肉以前有沒有在查驗？"],["姜署長至剛：你說邊境的查驗嗎？"],["主席：對。"],["姜署長至剛：邊境是一體適用，我們都是抽查的，一直都是抽的。"],["主席：所以你說一開始是農委會同意他們進來？"],["姜署長至剛：對，這個幾乎是在100年之前就有。"],["主席：你今天講信賴保護講了差不多十次了，那農委會准他，你就從來沒有去查過他們的廠？"],["姜署長至剛：我們查他的是查……"],["主席：農委會沒有去查他的廠？"],["姜署長至剛：我們是查牛肉、羊肉，在106年有去。"],["主席：你們是食藥署去？"],["姜署長至剛：對，我們會跟他們一起去，查完之後，因為他們那邊是牛、豬、羊、鹿肉是一起的，所以我們就會變系統性地同意它。"],["主席：那這一次3批超量，那3批是退還是銷毀？"],["姜署長至剛：原則上他沒有超過標準，他是沒有違規的行為，所以我們是會按照管制標準，其實是會放行，交由廠商在處理。"],["主席：所以牛肉做肉包、貢丸，都跑掉了。早上林淑芬講的我覺得很有道理，他說他有資格不吃，所以標示產地是很起碼的要求，那個做得到吧？"],["姜署長至剛：對，就是後市場端，我們對於散裝的及有包裝的牛肉原料原產地會標示，假如是在臺灣製造的，但是牛肉的原料原產地在澳洲，我們就標示在澳洲生產。"],["主席：豬肉、牛肉都一樣？"],["姜署長至剛：豬肉、牛肉都有，我們有這樣子的標示。以上說明。"],["主席：還有問題嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：主席，請允許我要求秀證據。"],["主席：這個問題太敏感了，已經經過三屆立委了。"],["陳委員昭姿：行政院的2020年圖卡告訴我們，因為很多人在謠傳，他們認為事實是什麼？只有美國萊豬會進口到臺灣，其他的產地沒有，他們說加拿大出口的豬肉不含萊劑，紐西蘭豬肉從未進來，又說澳洲國內生產幾乎不用萊劑，可是這次一查就查這麼多，圖卡上說澳洲進口總量是微乎其微，所以只有美國萊豬會進來，所以不要用這一張說到美國查廠只適用美國，不適用澳洲，只有美國萊豬會進口，這是2020年的圖卡，我剛剛說請不要翻頁，這個還是你們的黨，同一個黨在執政，這個才是行政院的圖卡。好，謝謝。"],["姜署長至剛：召委，我可以簡單說明。剛才提到的澳洲的部分，其實在右下角那裡特別有一個叫做未曾進口來臺的豬肉品廠，因為澳洲已經進來很久了，所以在這種前提之下，才沒有去，可是這次委員特別提醒我們，我們剛才有提到我們會加強。"],["陳委員昭姿：我們沒有開放啊！署長，我們沒有開放，第一個，我們沒有開放，我們只開放美國萊豬進口。第二個，已經查出這麼多批了，那這個2%到10%的部分怎麼沒有立刻矯正呢？你查到這麼多量，現在才讓委員說你們要不要提高查驗率。但現在就是不行，還是回到圖卡左邊的部分，行政院為最高指導原則，對吧？你們不能否認吧？行政院是最高的，雖然行政院出來認錯、修改，說當初答應人民的他們現在都做不到，偷偷地、悄悄地就讓其他國家的萊豬進來，就這樣，就這麼簡單，行政院是為了闢謠才做那張卡的耶！"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員，那我們這邊……"],["陳委員培瑜：主席，我可以再提問一下嗎？根據這張圖卡，左邊跟右邊應該是在講不同的事情吧？右邊就是剛剛食藥署說的，是針對美國的部分，未查廠不可以進口，是嗎？署長。"],["姜署長至剛：是所有沒有進口過的。"],["陳委員培瑜：是所有沒有進口的，可是左邊列出來的資料是，在那之前，就是你剛剛說的信賴保護原則，其實就已經有開始進口澳洲的豬肉。"],["姜署長至剛：其實一路以來都有進口澳洲豬肉。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。所以我覺得要理解這個資訊，左邊跟右邊的邏輯，應該是剛剛說的那樣。謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：我想是這樣，當年是不是只有美國有萊豬，其他國家沒有？我想或許在當年有當年的時空背景跟狀態，那現在因為進口商確實進了澳洲的豬肉，他們進口的時候覺得是沒有萊劑的，但是現在查驗卻發現有了，我覺得是這樣子，如果大家認為其他國家可能會陸續有加萊劑的狀況，那沒關係，我們也很贊成食藥署可以到國外去，加強查緝的強度，這個都是可以，那我也不曉得今年署長有沒有時間做這樣的安排，但是我想旅費統刪這件事情已經發生了，所以我也不知道食藥署你們到底有沒有錢可以出去國外查廠，這個你們也要講清楚。不能一邊說希望人家去國外查廠，結果又把人家旅費全部刪光光，要人家做事，又不給人家錢，這是很奇怪的事情，所以我就提出我的看法。"],["主席：好。陳昭姿委員，你有堅持要……"],["陳委員昭姿：當初他們答應的是美國萊豬可以進來，那如果是澳洲豬肉，澳洲豬肉可以進口，但是裡面是不能含萊劑的，因為只有美國萊豬可以進來，什麼時候悄悄地萊豬就進來了？所以沒有查廠嘛，一定要查廠，要查廠，然後進來，進來之後，你可以看它的狀況，再把檢驗率等等的規範慢慢放鬆，這是可以的。但我現在就是要求，當初這麼清楚的政治承諾，你不可以當作沒有嘛！不可以直接髮夾彎嘛！不可以當作沒這件事嘛！不然行政院要出來道歉啊！趕快查廠，趕快去澳洲查廠，然後只要標示清楚，再看大家要吃不吃，說不定很好吃，說不定大家很願意吃，但那不是問題，那不是問題，就是說源頭你答應的事，源頭行政院答應的事，你告訴人民是這樣，結果不知道這幾年來悄悄地都進來了，連澳洲的萊豬都進來，本來不能進來，說只有美國萊豬可以進來，我的重點就是在這個地方。"],["陳委員培瑜：你自己放的圖卡左邊就已經有了嘛。"],["陳委員昭姿：我的重點就在這個地方，認識字的都看得懂。"],["陳委員培瑜：有邏輯的應該都看得懂啦。來，主席，我可以再確認一次嗎？"],["主席：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主席。剛剛陳瑩委員說的國外旅費通刪六成這件事情，且不得流用，確實是呼應了剛剛署長突然說要去籌錢，那如果要去籌錢，但是我要提的是國外旅費的部分，我們還有哪些重要的事情，不能今天藍白的委員關心這個事情，我們就把國外旅費放在這裡，所以也許也可以請署長告訴我們，你們現在僅剩而且不得流用的國外旅費預算到底還可能用在什麼地方？而且是事關國人的食安健康，會不會後續又有其他的事情出來？國人對你們有所期待，我們如何回應國人的期待？畢竟所有的公務機關都是要為人民服務。","接下來，我剛剛講，你剛剛一直強調，在過去信賴保護原則下，在農委會時代我們跟澳洲的合作關係，如果你剛剛講的那個部分是回應這個圖卡的左半邊，我還是要拜託署長再清楚說明一次，讓更多在場所有關心這個議題的人，不管是所有的公務人員，或者是委員們，理解這件事情，然後一路回溯下來，應該這樣才比較合理。謝謝。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員讓我有機會進一步說明。其實細部的旅費部分，我沒有辦法馬上counting，我可以做書面的完整說明，原則上最重要的是，其實在這一次WHA的會議裡，我有跟部內長官們一起去WHA重要的會議裡面進行宣導、宣揚。第二部分特別提到澳洲的這個部分，我們在做食安的時候，特別會提到，澳洲這部分其實是約定俗成，已經是傳統上都接受的，所以我們沒有特別再針對這個去查。舉個例子，因為澳洲已經可以用萊克多巴胺，所以我去查的時候，澳洲就是被歸類在可以用萊克多巴胺的國家裡面，所以我查澳洲的廠，它還是可以用萊克多巴胺，它的豬肉也還是會有這種東西，所以就會變成說，我去查的目的是要查這個廠的關鍵點是要看它有沒有萊克多巴胺，但不用查它就已經告訴我，它是有的，邏輯上面會是這樣，因為它就允許嘛；假如是對於它衛生管理的部分，衛生管理的部分，因為是約定俗成，這麼多年以來，相對於其他國家，澳洲來的豬肉在國內，其實更有所謂的reputation，其實大家的信任度是更高的，所以在這樣的前提之下，一直以來是這樣，所以我們就是用過去的經驗，還有剛才講的信賴保護的前提之下，才會沿用，然後沒有特別去查廠。"],["主席：我們是要處理臨時提案，不要失焦了。","休息2分鐘。跟他們兩個人說一說。發便當，吃便當，吃一吃比較不會吵。","休息（12時14分）","繼續開會（12時23分）"],["主席：來，你再把這些有爭議的再唸一次。"],["姜署長至剛：好，針對國人食安健康及消費選擇權：一、加強查廠：針對進口來臺的肉品廠，加強派員查廠。二、加強查驗：進口豬肉提升查驗比率。三、落實產地標示。最後4個字的部分回復到「溯源追蹤」。第四項沒有改變。以上。","我們沒有特別針對一個國家，但是我們心裡會有一個數，這邊跟委員特別做這樣的報告。"],["主席：王育敏委員的臨時提案，我們就修正通過，有沒有意見？（無）好，通過。","臨時提案全部處理完畢。","接下來我們請李坤城委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳瑩","廖偉翔","陳培瑜","李坤城","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","劉書彬","劉建國","黃國昌","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲"],"page_start":163,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「長照2.0執行情形檢討及3.0未來規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長就「澳洲進口豬腳驗出含萊克多巴胺，如何加強肉品食安查驗，讓民眾\n放心」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00004"}}},{"id":"161102","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161102","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c16f33c16e438c8ab6e0059966c803d0e997e39277836b040f861507bed890295c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:22:51 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這邊有售險業他們的美金的避險做得不夠"},{"start":95.126,"end":120.618,"text":"所以這連續幾天的升值他們就嘩嘩叫但是我們來看一下我比較驚訝的坦白說這個過程迅速的升值有包有扁但我個人比較傾向是正面肯定因為您提到了房子突暈的突擊這在過去台幣緩慢升值的信仰當中給很多人有可趁之機這次呢突破傳統的想法認為央行呢就算是會升也是慢慢的升"},{"start":121.378,"end":139.094,"text":"結果沒有這樣的情況所以出乎人家意料破除人家的央行信仰我覺得這個值得肯定謝謝非常謝謝這個對我們是一個很大的鼓勵但是我有一個疑惑為什麼你們央行表示台幣升值不影響央行的腳庫盈餘"},{"start":140.748,"end":169.188,"text":"他說報紙上報導台幣升值不會影響央行的損益淨值跟腳庫盈餘這怎麼回事啊我跟委員報告我很簡單的講就是說因為我們匯率就是說匯率會有這樣的一個如果說貶值的時候呢貶值的時候呢我們的現在升值我們貶值的時候呢升值的時候你的盈餘會不會縮水我們就有盈餘對上一上一上一陣子我們到一兆多現在台幣升值你的盈餘會不會縮水"},{"start":170.309,"end":196.769,"text":"不會因為為什麼因為這個那英語怎麼來的不我先來先說我先問你腳褲英語怎麼來的我們腳褲的英語就是我們的收益啊你們的收益怎麼來的主要收益哪裡我們收益的就是投資各個幣別的是嗎我們來看一下各個幣別的啊央行握有美債超過4600多億對不對如果台幣升值了你這樣的一個透過美債持有美債的收益就會縮水嘛是不是這樣子是不是這樣同不同意"},{"start":197.71,"end":202.8,"text":"那今天呢 而且你還不是一次喔國庫金基努啊央行盈餘繳庫連續兩年超過兩千億請問一下盈餘繳庫"},{"start":208.809,"end":231.368,"text":"繳固盈餘是用央行的錢賺來的嗎是啊沒有錯啊是央行的錢喔不是不是外匯存底外匯存底是全民的資產啊對啦沒有錯啊那怎麼是央行的錢是啦因為我們也好既然央行用來賺繳固盈餘的錢是外匯存底持有的美債為主那請問一下你用大家的錢賺的錢繳固盈餘是你央行的經營目標嗎"},{"start":232.689,"end":249.396,"text":"沒有不是你的目標嗎對沒有那很奇怪但是每次我聽你們央行在講的好像把腳褲盈餘神聖不可侵犯沒有如果要維持這個腳褲盈餘沒有財政部有同意嗎沒有財政部市長絕對沒有你們同意嗎財政部市長對沒有沒有以後你們腳褲盈餘變少了財政部不會講話沒有絕對沒有請問市長央行的盈餘腳褲是他的使命嗎"},{"start":261.502,"end":285.336,"text":"據我了解各國的央行幾乎都會把那英語都會攪哭了好來我們看各國的你既然講到來央行總裁看一下這是美國的年準會他說他的使命是有效促進充分就業為什麼請勞動部長來市長來物價穩定和長期利率的市住對央行法寫什麼金融穩定健全銀行幣值的穩定以及經濟發展對"},{"start":287.037,"end":307.579,"text":"有沒有寫到腳步盈餘沒有那請問一下美國的聯準會關心的問題央行有沒有關心就業跟物價你關不關心就業跟物價剛剛財政部長說各國的央行都有做的事情那我想我們台灣的央行也會做你有關心物價跟就業嗎"},{"start":309.881,"end":325.988,"text":"我們的物價是在幣值的穩定那邊啦幣值的穩定因為購買力的問題我們再講啦往下看但是呢我們過去本席也跟很多委員有提過立法院也曾經多次提過要用外匯存底來提撥成立主權基金你還記得吧"},{"start":326.708,"end":349.466,"text":"你是不是堅定的反對對你堅定的反對嗎對那但是呢你現在呢堅決反對但是現在堅持不反對啊沒有你從堅決反對到堅持不反對我們堅決反對是說無償的不用我們是堅決反對但是你不是反對拿外匯存底就對了但是呢你的反對是反對不是反對拿外匯存底為什麼因為"},{"start":350.509,"end":379.425,"text":"因為其他的國家都是用外匯存體做沒有韓國就是嘛 對不對沒有 不是我來問你 韓國是不是用外匯存體我說韓國是用外匯存體委託他對 委託他嘛那委託呢過去堅持反對 現在堅持不反對你堅持什麼沒有沒有沒有第一 主權基金未來不虧央行款 對不對對第二個可以用外匯存體但是要有償使用 對不對"},{"start":381.055,"end":403.289,"text":"第三要有專法這是你的堅持嘛堅持不歸央行款堅持外匯存體要有償使用堅持要有專法是不是這樣子所以我說嘛過去你堅決反對大家誤會你了嘛你不是堅決反對你是堅持但不反對來往下看那現在呢我們財政部說成立主權接近要設定專法來次長為什麼要有專法"},{"start":405.886,"end":412.07,"text":"基本上因為它涉及因為它是一個創富基金那創富基金所以它是在所以要監督"},{"start":414.015,"end":434.053,"text":"他要監督 因為他的風險比較高 有賺有虧嘛所以有賺有虧有風險嘛但不能說賺就是有功 賠就是要法要專法 要依法來管 不是依盈虧賺賠來管專法的目的不是依賺賠盈虧來管 是依法來管理對 依法來管理"},{"start":435.934,"end":446.201,"text":"那這也同意說違不宜由外匯質疑直接無藏不用那請問我們國防外部主委你們這個議題是誰在主管主權基金現在行政院交給誰來研究"},{"start":447.509,"end":465.877,"text":"現在就是國發會嘛目前還沒有定案是有哪一個管機關我們猜應該是國發會管啊對 還是要等行政院決定那假設未來國發會管來 請問一下剛剛我們總裁跟財政部長說的外匯存體要怎麼有償的使用"},{"start":467.183,"end":486.921,"text":"基本上如果按照那個 新加坡的例子的話是他們用發債的方式那是發債 我說外匯存底呢 有啥使用發債 然後呢他們就是外匯存底 有部分是他們是做財務性的操作那他就可以 聽不太懂外匯存底 跟央行拿外匯存底使用要付央行錢 簡單講是這樣"},{"start":488.542,"end":514.835,"text":"就是說其實因為央行裡面它基本上來我請問一下總裁如果要央行要有償使用我想就是說基本上用你的外匯存體你管外匯存體要多少錢新加坡它如果說要用動物我問新加坡我說你說的有償使用使用央行管你的外匯存體要多少錢就是兩個途徑第一個途徑就是說你要買匯你要跟專案銀行買匯這個才有償對不對"},{"start":517.916,"end":539.008,"text":"所以央行可以透過買匯拿到錢就對了所以未來我們就這樣結論了主權基金成立之後他的盈餘他負責繳庫嘛因為怎麼樣本來央行拿去操作美債賺的錢繳庫的錢現在換成主權基金跟你有償使用後他負的錢那請問是你繼續繳庫還是他來繳庫"},{"start":541.34,"end":544.402,"text":"你會不會因為主權基金使用你的外匯存底而"},{"start":561.192,"end":579.513,"text":"有收益要繳庫沒有就是我們的外匯存底主席不要緊張但是他現在就是說他如果說是用新台幣來跟我們買的時候我簡單問你如果未來主席成立動用到你的外匯存底你會收到他付的錢對不對這個是不是你的營運要繳庫你說什麼"},{"start":582.659,"end":604.246,"text":"我已經問了三次了 再說一次你竟然主張外匯存底使用 主均均使用要有償不管他用什麼方式 你會有一筆錢 有一筆收益嘛這個收益就是你要小庫的嘛 對不對那以後這個錢呢 多或少就不那麼重要了嘛至少不是你的使命嘛 你的使命怎麼樣要不要促進充分就業跟副業沒有錯 那請問次長 理事長"},{"start":608.047,"end":635.538,"text":"那你覺得央行是不是應該跟聯儲會一樣關心就業也關心我們的薪資水平呢保委我了解美國的FED他是很關心就業水準特別是失業率是他們的一個重要的衡量指標是那我覺得我想我們的央行他本於他的職權也是會關注這一塊好也會關注期待啦我們下一頁因為時間關係好央行怎麼保持我們新台幣的幣值穩定第一個"},{"start":636.53,"end":652.816,"text":"你要匯率就對美金的匯率對不對這是我們對外國財貨的購買力第二個是我們的CPI我們的物價指數物價不能太上漲不能購買力會下降是不是那請問央行為了維持幣值穩定台幣的主升容易還是主貶容易"},{"start":654.246,"end":665.163,"text":"我想兩個都不太容易啦如果比較起來,你老師問我們兩個的答案比較起來兩個比較容易比較起來的時候呢,我覺得組生比較難組生比較難,我們看一下"},{"start":668.772,"end":691.636,"text":"今天如果美金要貶值你要防止台幣升值你只要釋出台幣就好了嘛你發行國庫券從銀行把新台幣拿出來交給持有外匯的業者增加新台幣供給台幣會不會升值你要怎麼阻止台幣貶值你能夠阻止台幣貶值嗎你阻止台幣貶值要拋售美金啊對不對"},{"start":692.336,"end":706.479,"text":"你的美金如果有限 你拋售的能力有限但是台幣 竹筆權 台幣竹筆在你手上對啦 委員這樣講的話 那我稍微修改我的答案事實上呢 竹升跟竹貶都不大容易啦"},{"start":712.381,"end":726.265,"text":"因為主生容易所以你只要發行新台幣擴大新台幣就好了不加薪結果我們新台幣通過增加的結果我們的什麼薪水沒有增加物價是微微的上漲但是我們的房地產上漲了往下看"},{"start":727.425,"end":734.948,"text":"這是一個很重要的資產負債表央行過去在2017年到2024年我們的資產負債表從2017年的8.5兆到21.1兆我們的明目GDP是從18.6上升到26.5我們央行的資產負債表的占比占我國的GDP從45上升到快80上升了33"},{"start":746.952,"end":762.299,"text":"美國上次的貨幣寬鬆QE1到QE3他從2007到2014他也只不過了他們的聯準會的資產副照表也不過的戰機率的占比呢增加了不到20他目前占比只有25這什麼意思我們往下看"},{"start":763.622,"end":782.549,"text":"台美的貨幣擴張的規模台灣在最近7年來我們的M2貨幣供給量從44.5兆增加到64.5兆增加20兆美國在上市的貨幣寬鬆時期也足夠增加3.5兆美金指標我們看一下台幣跟美國的比較是107.5兆對23.8兆請問一下李市長"},{"start":786.75,"end":791.153,"text":"如果基礎貿易大幅擴張導致物價跟房地產過度膨脹你覺得對我們社信階級有什麼影響"},{"start":809.864,"end":828.2,"text":"就勞工部立場當然物價上漲勞工的實質薪資率就會那麼高那房地產上漲呢我們現在是可以罵這個我要結論了我要結論了主席你已經超過十幾分鐘了好不好你剛剛突然站起來害我嚇一跳精神損失前面兩分鐘超過十幾分鐘了我已經給你十幾分鐘了可以了可以了不要兩分鐘了好兩分鐘就好換接位好不好兩條前面的人繼續我們要做個結論嘛"},{"start":830.081,"end":832.944,"text":"請往前上一張以GDP的規模做比較過去台灣7年比美國規模還大的QE結論我要講出來總裁請你注意一下拜託"},{"start":850.422,"end":864.972,"text":"如果要成立國家主權基金央行法的第二條你的經營的目標請你要考慮放進有效促進充分就業提高薪資水準以及物價穩定可不可以往這個目標去研議你們央行法的修改"},{"start":866.674,"end":870.416,"text":"呃...我覺得是不...呃...不...呃...是不...所以你不擔心就是了...就是了現在請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請楊瓊議員諮詢請�"},{"start":893.672,"end":899.761,"text":"我希望委員尊重夫妻了你超過20分鐘了這個過分了吧站起來說我坐下來了啊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":865,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時23分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生，有請中央銀行楊總裁、國發會高副主委，還有勞動部的李次長。"],["主席：各位長官請。"],["楊總裁金龍：鍾委員早。"],["鍾委員佳濱：總裁好、副主委好、次長好。今天的主題是籌組主權基金專法專責專財，央行任務強化關注就業薪資。先請教總裁，你有宗教信仰嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得每一個人都要有宗教信仰。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，有宗教信仰。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你知道臺灣社會有兩種非宗教信仰嗎？我講給你聽。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：上班族有土地信仰，相信房地產只會漲；產業界有央行信仰，相信央行，臺幣阻升，不阻貶。你同意嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得房地產只會漲……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我說央行信仰，你同意嗎？有這樣的央行信仰嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有啊！因為臺幣阻升……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這次明顯臺幣升了，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會啊！你看我們前一波才阻貶。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以央行信仰的部分被修正了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：央行還是會有升有貶。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是過去這個央行信仰還在的時間，我們的產業界、壽險界因為有這個信仰，所以壽險業的美金避險做得不夠，這連續幾天的升值，他們就哇哇叫，但是我們來看一下，我比較驚訝的是，坦白說，這個迅速升值的過程有褒有貶，但我個人比較傾向是正面肯定，因為您提到了防止禿鷹的突擊，這在過去臺幣緩慢升值的信仰當中，給很多人可乘之機，這次突破傳統的想法，認為央行就算會升，也是慢慢地升，結果沒有這樣的情況，所以出乎人家意料，破除人家的央行信仰，我覺得這個值得肯定。"],["楊總裁金龍：非常謝謝，這對我們是一個很大的鼓勵。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是我有一個疑惑，為什麼你們央行表示臺幣升值不影響央行的繳庫盈餘？報紙上報導，臺幣升值不會影響央行的損益、淨值跟繳庫盈餘，這是怎麼回事？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告……"],["鍾委員佳濱：簡單講。"],["楊總裁金龍：我很簡單地講，因為我們的匯率會有這樣的一個……如果貶值的時候，我們的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在升值，升值的時候我們的盈餘會不會縮水？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們貶值的時候就會有mark to market，我們就有盈餘。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：前一陣子我們到一兆多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在臺幣升值，你的盈餘會不會縮水？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會，因為這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不會喔？那盈餘怎麼來的？"],["楊總裁金龍：不，我現在先說明……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我先問你，繳庫盈餘怎麼來的？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們繳庫的盈餘就是我們的收益。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們的收益怎麼來的？主要收益在哪裡？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的收益就是投資各個幣別……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嗎？我們來看一下。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，各個幣別的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：央行握有的美債超過四千六百多億，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果臺幣升值了，你持有美債的收益就會縮水，是不是這樣子？同不同意？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：而且你還不是一次喔，「國庫金雞母！央行盈餘繳庫連續兩年超過2,000億」。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以才……"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下，繳庫盈餘是用央行的錢賺來的嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啊，沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是央行的錢喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，不是央行的錢……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你不是說外匯存底？"],["楊總裁金龍：外匯存底……"],["鍾委員佳濱：外匯存底是全民的資產。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對嘛，怎麼是央行的錢！"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦，因為我們有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，既然央行用來賺繳庫盈餘的錢是外匯存底，持有的以美債為主。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，美債為主。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下，你用大家的錢賺繳庫盈餘，是你央行的經營目標嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是你的目標嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那很奇怪！每次我聽你們央行在講，好像繳庫盈餘是神聖不可侵犯的，無論如何要維持這個繳庫盈餘。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有！"],["鍾委員佳濱：財政部同意嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有，我們絕對沒有！"],["鍾委員佳濱：財政部次長，你們同意嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：以後你們繳庫盈餘變少了，財政部不會講話？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，絕對沒有！"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問次長，央行的盈餘繳庫是它的使命嗎？"],["阮次長清華：據我了解，各國的央行幾乎都會把盈餘繳庫。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們看各國的，你既然講到了，來，央行總裁看一下。這是美國的聯準會，它說它的使命是有效促進充分就業。為什麼我請勞動部次長來？物價穩定和長期利率的適度，央行法寫什麼？金融穩定、健全銀行、幣值的穩定以及經濟發展。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有寫到繳庫盈餘？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下，美國聯準會關心的問題，央行有沒有關心就業跟物價？你關不關心就業跟物價？"],["楊總裁金龍：第一個，我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛剛財政部次長說各國央行都有做的事情，我想我們臺灣的央行也會做，你有關心物價跟就業嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，我們的物價是在幣值的穩定那邊，對內對外幣值穩定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：幣值的穩定，是因為購買力的問題，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們後面會講，往下看。過去本席跟很多委員提過，立法院也曾經多次提過，要用外匯存底來提撥成立主權基金，你還記得吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：您是不是堅定地反對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我們堅定反對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你現在說過去是堅決反對，但是現在堅持不反對？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你從堅決反對到堅持不反對。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我們堅決反對是說，無償的撥用我們是堅決反對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是你不是反對外匯存底就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你的反對不是反對拿外匯存底，為什麼？因為其他的國家都是用外匯存底做。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：韓國就是，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，不是！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我要問你，韓國是不是用外匯存底？"],["楊總裁金龍：我說韓國是用外匯存底委託它……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以我就一項一項把你的反對釐清，往下看。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：過去堅決反對，現在堅持不反對。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你堅持什麼？這三個，第一，主權基金未來不歸央行管，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第二個，可以用外匯存底，但是要有償使用，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：要有償使用，對啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：第三，要有專法，這是你的堅持嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：堅持不歸央行管，堅持外匯存底要有償使用，堅持要有專法，是不是這樣子？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我說嘛，過去你堅決反對，大家誤會你了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你不是堅決反對，你是堅持，但不反對。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，往下看。現在財政部說成立主權基金要訂立專法，來，次長，為什麼要有專法？"],["阮次長清華：基本上，因為它是一個創富基金，所以它是試圖在國內……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以要有監督嘛，是不是？"],["阮次長清華：對，它要有監督……"],["鍾委員佳濱：要有資金來源的規範嘛。"],["阮次長清華：因為它的風險比較高，有賺有虧。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以有賺有虧，有風險。"],["阮次長清華：對，有風險。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但不能說賺就是有功，賠就是要罰，要有專法、要依法來管，不是依盈虧賺賠來管，是不是這樣子？"],["阮次長清華：對，所以一定要明確。"],["鍾委員佳濱：專法的目的不是依賺賠盈虧來管，是依法來管理？"],["阮次長清華：對，依法來管理，包括……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這也同意說「惟不宜由外匯存底直接無償撥用」，請問我們國發會副主委，這個議題是誰在主管？主權基金現在行政院交給誰來研究？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：現在就是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：國發會嘛？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：目前還沒有定案是由哪一個主管機關……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那為什麼今天你會出現在這裡？我們都猜應該是國發會管啊！"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，還是要等行政院決定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，假設未來國發會管，請問一下，剛剛我們總裁跟財政部次長說的，外匯存底要有償撥用，怎麼有償地使用？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上，如果按照新加坡的例子，他們是用發債的方式，然後由……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是發債，我說外匯存底有償使用，發債然後呢？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：他們外匯存底有一部分是做財務性的操作，它就可以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我聽不太懂，跟央行拿外匯存底使用後要付央行錢，簡單講是這樣？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：其實因為央行裡面，它基本上……"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，我請一下總裁。總裁，如果要有償使用……"],["楊總裁金龍：我想基本上新加坡……"],["鍾委員佳濱：用你的外匯存底，你管的外匯存底要不要付錢？"],["楊總裁金龍：新加坡如果說要動用……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我不問新加坡，我是問你說的有償使用央行管理的外匯存底要付錢？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，就是兩個途徑，第一個途徑就是你要買匯，你要跟中央銀行買匯，這個才有償，對不對？"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以買匯，央行可以透過買匯拿到錢就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊！我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，所以未來我們就這樣結論，主權基金成立之後的盈餘它負責繳庫嘛！因為怎麼樣？本來央行拿去操作美債賺的錢、繳庫的錢，現在換成這個主權基金，跟你有償使用後它付的錢，請問是你繼續繳庫還是它來繳庫？"],["楊總裁金龍：那當然啊……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是誰？是誰繳庫？"],["楊總裁金龍：它如果……對，主權基金繳庫啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你要不要繳庫？它也付你們錢啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，因為它已經用新臺幣給我們啦！它給我們新臺幣啦！我們給它……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你會不會因為主權基金使用你的外匯存底有收益而要繳庫？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，就是我們的外匯存底還是會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席不要緊張啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：但是它現在如果是用新臺幣來跟我們買的時候，我們外幣……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我簡單問你啦，如果未來主權基金成立，動用到你的外匯存底，你會收到它付的錢嘛，對不對？這個是不是你的盈餘要繳庫？"],["楊總裁金龍：你說什麼？"],["鍾委員佳濱：我已經問了三次了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，你說。"],["鍾委員佳濱：再說一次，你既然主張外匯存底使用、主權基金使用要有償……"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：不管它用什麼方式，你會有一筆錢、有一個收益嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個收益就是你要繳庫的嘛，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：以後這個錢多或少就不那麼重要了嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：至少不是你的使命嘛，你的使命怎麼樣？要不要促進充分就業跟物價穩定？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問李次長，你覺得央行是不是應該跟聯準會一樣關心就業，也關心我們的薪資水平呢？"],["李次長健鴻：報告委員，我了解美國的Fed是很關心就業水準，特別是失業率是他們重要的一個衡量指標，我想我們的央行本於它的職權也是會關注這一塊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，也會關注，期待啦！央行怎麼保持我們新臺幣的幣值穩定？第一個，你對美金的匯率，這是我們對外國財貨的購買力；第二個是我們的CPI物價指數，物價不能太上漲，不然購買力會下降，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問央行為了維持幣值穩定，臺幣阻升容易還是阻貶容易？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想兩個都不太容易啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果比較起來呢？你老是回答這種模稜兩可的答案，比較起來哪個比較容易？"],["楊總裁金龍：比較起來我覺得阻升比較難。"],["鍾委員佳濱：阻升比較難，我們看一下，今天如果美金要貶值，你要防止臺幣升值只要釋出臺幣就好了嘛！你發行國庫券從銀行把新臺幣拿出來交給持有外匯的業者增加新臺幣供給，臺幣會不會升值？那你要怎麼阻止臺幣貶值？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，不過我總覺得……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你能夠阻止臺幣貶值嗎？你阻止臺幣貶值，要拋售美金，對不對？你的美金如果有限那拋售能力有限，但是臺幣鑄幣權在你手上，可以拋售臺幣……"],["楊總裁金龍：委員這樣講的話，那我稍微修改我的答案，事實上阻升跟阻貶都不太容易啦！都不太容易！"],["鍾委員佳濱：你是把大家……「裝肖仔」喔！"],["楊總裁金龍：因為相對的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我跟你講阻升容易，所以你只要發行新臺幣、擴大新臺幣就好了，不加薪，結果我們新臺幣通貨增加的結果，我們的薪水沒有增加，物價是微微地上漲，但是我們的房地產上漲了。這是一個很重要的資產負債表，央行過去在2017年到2024年，我們的資產負債表從2017年的8.5兆到21.1兆，我們的名目GDP是從18.6上升到26.5，我們央行資產負債表在我國GDP占比從45%上升到接近80%，上升了33%。美國上次的貨幣寬鬆QE1到QE3，從2007到2014，他們聯準會的資產負債表也不過在GDP的占比增加了不到20%，目前占比只有25%，這什麼意思？"],["主席：時間到了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：臺美貨幣擴張的規模，臺灣最近7年來，我們的M2貨幣供給量從44.5兆增加到64.5兆，增加了20兆；美國在上次貨幣寬鬆時期也不過增加了3.5兆美金。我們看一下指標，臺幣跟美國的比較是107.5%對23.8%，請問一下李次長，您覺得貨幣擴張這麼多……"],["主席：時間超過很多了……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道。"],["主席：時間超過很多了啦！結束啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，快結束了，您覺得有可能的影響是什麼？"],["李次長健鴻：報告委員，你剛剛問的是？"],["主席：時間到了，我們換下一位。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果基礎貨幣大幅擴張導致物價跟房地產過度膨脹，你覺得對我們受薪階級有什麼影響？"],["李次長健鴻：就勞動部立場，物價上漲當然勞工的實質薪資率就會沒有那麼高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那房地產上漲呢？"],["主席：好了，我們下次再問可以嗎？"],["鍾委員佳濱：我要結論了，主席。"],["主席：你已經超過十幾分鐘了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你剛剛突然站起來，害我嚇一跳，精神損失給我兩分鐘。"],["主席：你已經超過十幾分鐘了，我已經給你十幾分鐘了，可以了，可以了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：再給我兩分鐘。"],["主席：不要兩分鐘了，可以了，換下一位好不好？","楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席，我把它做個結論嘛！"],["主席：結束了好不好？結束了可不可以？"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席，我把它做個結論。"],["主席：我已經給你12分鐘了，你還……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你剛剛8分鐘就站起來了。來，我們把它講完……"],["主席：我已經給你12分鐘，你不要這樣……"],["鍾委員佳濱：以GDP的規模做比較，等同臺灣過去7年進行了比美國規模還大的QE。我要講結論，總裁請你注意一下，拜託，如果要成立國家主權基金，央行法第二條經營的目標請你要考慮放進有效促進充分就業、提高薪資水準以及物價穩定方案，可不可以往這個目標去研議你們央行法的修改？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得是不……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你不擔心……"],["主席：好了，結束了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：提高薪資水準以及物價穩定……"],["主席：請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"],["楊總裁金龍：我想……"],["鍾委員佳濱：請書面答復好不好？"],["主席：請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。你已經超過20分鐘了。"],["楊總裁金龍：我想委員做的這個建議，我私下來跟委員報告，好不好？"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：我私下跟委員報告，好不好？很detail的報告，好不好？"],["主席：我希望委員尊重主席啦，你超過20分鐘，過分了啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：你剛剛8分鐘就站起來。"],["主席：所以我坐下來了啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你講我就結束了啊！"],["主席：你一定要這樣辯嗎？我站起來你時間到了超過20分鐘，我一直讓你講……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你剛剛站起來啦！"],["主席：站起來後來馬上坐下來啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：你講我就結束了啊！"],["主席：哪裡有結束？再講20分鐘啊！不尊重主席，準備這麼多很好，但是你要考慮其他人嘛，後面的人怎麼辦？好，請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","王世堅","林思銘","涂權吉","王鴻薇","謝龍介","陳玉珍","陳冠廷","林楚茵","翁曉玲"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、國家發展委員會\n劉主任委員鏡清、勞動部洪部長申翰、銓敘部施部長能傑就「我國如果要設立國家主權基金，中\n央銀行與政府相關基金（如四大基金等）所扮演的角色為何？」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00006"}}},{"id":"161101","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161101","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c14f1f73e924d339e2cf7df95ebd13a46f97e39277836b040f03e26e77da1de7db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:28:40 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謝謝主席 我請部長還有署長 吳署長有請 王委員好好 部長好 署長好 延續剛才吳委員特別提到的危老的師承獎勵事實上呢 在去年的四月份 同樣在內政委員會 我就特別的提及"},{"start":29.466,"end":54.088,"text":"有關於我們的危老因為我們的時辰獎勵遞減一直到5月10號之後也就現在事實上已經沒有時辰獎勵了所以當時在一年之前我就提出因為在尤其在都會區尤其在雙北因為我們的老舊房子非常非常之多那麼危老重建其實有其必要"},{"start":54.688,"end":70.136,"text":"所以我當時就要求我們內政部還有我們國獨署要針對危老的部分在實成獎勵應該提出新的辦法但是非常可惜一年過去了一年過去了實成獎勵歸為零了就是歸為零"},{"start":73.698,"end":95.077,"text":"他事實上就已經沒有誘因了當然我知道你們現在提出來所謂的規模獎勵可是確實危老獎勵就是因為他沒有有的是比較小範圍他可以趕快的去做重建因為你要把它變得更大的一個範圍的話其實他要去協調的人"},{"start":96.438,"end":123.605,"text":"就住戶就非常多好我們來看因為我們知道在今年就是因為實產獎勵即將落日所以呢在今年年初那麼整個的危老重建的計畫這個案子就來得非常非常之多所以如果你可以看六都來說以危老重建計畫跟都市更新的進度危老的件數要遠遠大於都市更新對不對"},{"start":124.545,"end":146.507,"text":"他為什麼不走都市更新?都市更新因為他的產權複雜所以就圍牢他比較容易嘛當然我們做整個的都更我知道你們希望能夠他的範圍大一點讓整個市容變得比較漂亮可是其實我們做圍牢有一個非常非常重要就是防災"},{"start":147.448,"end":173.088,"text":"就是防災所以到现在为止为老的时辰奖励已经完全没有了只剩下时辰奖励但是你的对不起只剩下规模奖励你的规模奖励真的能够去促进这些为老的重建吗你知道以我们台北市台北市好多其实很多的案子因为到了5月10号临了他们就通通都没有了"},{"start":173.829,"end":190.432,"text":"但我剛才看大概有起碼一百多件將近兩百件很可惜啊他們本來也希望趕快跟時間賽跑所以請問我一年前就提出來你不要跟我講一年後你還在研擬中那個這個就要昏倒啦"},{"start":193.554,"end":210.844,"text":"其實我們當時在提出以這個規模獎勵來取代實成獎勵大概就是一個概念因為實成獎勵是一個空白授權的容積獎勵空白授權的容積獎勵它對於實施者來講不需要付出其他任何代價就直接拿到的容積獎勵"},{"start":212.199,"end":237.564,"text":"那所以對於過去長期有出現這一種已經類似紙片屋的這個房子其實不太對於它的結構安全甚至像剛剛委員所提到的房災其實它沒有辦法有任何的幫助那規模獎勵其實我們也沒有說規模獎勵要大到很大其實它只要有提到200平方公尺所以你這個意思就是說我說明一下大概60坪的土地就可以申請到規模獎勵大概200平方公尺60坪左右"},{"start":240.385,"end":248.271,"text":"所以他沒有很大就可以申請到規模獎勵此外他原有的30%的容積獎勵還是都保留著所以我們是用這差距的10%我們就是用規模獎勵來做取代這一點是沒有變的因為大致上過去找地方政府來談他們也贊成其實那我就要看你們最後的成果喔 是所以我剛剛講嘛"},{"start":264.222,"end":279.925,"text":"就是因為有時辰獎勵 所以它的數量真的就比都更來得多很多 也加速了重建因為時間關係 另外請教一下去年0403花蓮地震一周年 當時有很多開紅單黃單的建樹然後當時也提出了我們有補強的補貼"},{"start":288.507,"end":296.81,"text":"那麼但是我們如果來看全台灣來說我們現在顯然去當時核定的這些紅單黃單的動數那麼以目前來講那麼真正核定的件數事實上呢是低於真的是遠遠低於當時的紅黃單的件數然後呢在應該上個月"},{"start":314.776,"end":328.732,"text":"在整個的檢討的時候那麼說在這些的補強案件裡面呢在花蓮有半數呢是卡在中央審查那我想請問一下這個進度可不可以加強加快加快進度"},{"start":333.177,"end":359.351,"text":"好 感謝委員因為在過程當中的確因為耐震補強的部分它要經過這個結構的設計還有結構的審查那在之前也有反應就是希望國政中心這裡能夠再提供更多的人力因為他們分三組結果民眾是認為你現在是說人數不足對 國政中心後來有加快因為它本來是三組人後來有增加到五組人"},{"start":360.251,"end":375.124,"text":"就是希望透過這種方式來加快審查第二個就是說跟民眾的溝通因為民眾有一些對於哪些可以列入耐震補強項目哪一些不屬於那過去一直有意見那我們前一陣子也都有請他們跟民眾做溝通"},{"start":375.965,"end":392.781,"text":"我覺得在台灣地震常常就是好了傷疤忘了痛在一次大電震之後過一段時間呢大家好像有點遺忘然後整個的進度就開始牛步化甚至是龜步化可是我們永遠不知道下一場大地震什麼時候來什麼時候來"},{"start":395.043,"end":421.841,"text":"所以你剛剛在講人數的問題我也覺得很驚訝就是說其實我們應該全力的尤其這邊已經開紅單跟黃單開紅單黃單那老實講最近花蓮附近還是一直不停的有地震頻傳所以在這個部分我希望在因為如果說還有半數都在中央卡在中央你可不可以給我一個時間你多久時間可以把它消化完成"},{"start":422.541,"end":423.922,"text":"我想我趕快來找這個國政中心來看看他們最近的執行進度在會後我想提供給委員這個報告提出有關於花蓮地震"},{"start":440.959,"end":456.406,"text":"目前的耐震補強相關不是只有花蓮我關心台北也很多台北還有新北很多而且其實老實講並不容易啦我們自己選區裡面會也是他因為他不同的洞然後他就是在那一部分他很複雜"},{"start":458.006,"end":468.556,"text":"但是我們都很怕下一次地震來因為它會影響到其他隔壁棟它有些是連結的這邊貼黃單那邊沒有貼黃單可是旁邊沒有貼黃單也非常擔心所以這個部分請加快腳步好不好那拜託在我們會後你可不可以一個禮拜之內給我們至少書面的說明好不好好 謝謝謝謝王文威委員下一位我們以邱志偉委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":692,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時28分）謝謝主席，我請部長還有署長。"],["主席：劉部長有請、吳署長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長好、署長好。延續剛才吳委員特別提到的危老時程獎勵，事實上在去年的4月份，同樣在內政委員會，我就特別提及有關於我們的危老，因為我們的時程獎勵遞減，一直到5月10號之後，也就是現在，事實上已經沒有時程獎勵了。當時在一年之前我就提出，尤其在都會區，尤其在雙北，因為我們的老舊房子非常非常多，危老重建其實有其必要，所以我當時就要求內政部還有國土署要針對危老的部分，在時程獎勵應該提出新的辦法，但是非常可惜，一年過去了，時程獎勵歸為零了，事實上它就已經沒有誘因了，當然我知道你們現在提出所謂的規模獎勵，可是確實危老獎勵就是因為它沒有……有的是比較小範圍，它可以趕快去重建，因為你要把它變得更大的一個範圍的話，其實要協調的住戶就非常多。","我們知道今年時程獎勵即將落日，所以在今年年初，整個危老重建計畫的案子就來得非常非常多，如果以六都來說，危老重建計畫跟都市更新的進度相比，危老的件數要遠遠大於都市更新，對不對？它為什麼不走都市更新？因為它的……"],["吳署長欣修：產權複雜。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，複雜，所以危老比較容易嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：當然我們整個都更，我知道你們希望它的範圍能夠大一點，讓整個市容變得比較漂亮。其實我們做危老有一個非常非常重要的目的就是防災，可是到現在為止，危老的時程獎勵已經完全沒有了，只剩下時程獎勵。"],["吳署長欣修：規模。"],["王委員鴻薇：對不起，只剩下規模獎勵，你的規模獎勵真的能夠促進這些危老的重建嗎？以臺北市為例，其實很多案子因為到了5月10號停了，他們通通都沒有了，我剛才看大概起碼一百多件，將近兩百件，很可惜啊！他們本來也希望趕快跟時間賽跑，所以請問，我一年前就提出來，你不要跟我講一年後你還在研擬中，我聽了就要昏倒啦！署長。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實我們當時提出以規模獎勵取代時程獎勵，大概就是一個概念，因為時程獎勵是一個空白授權的容積獎勵，它對於實施者來講，不需要付出其他任何代價就直接拿到容積獎勵，所以過去長期出現這一種、類似紙片屋的這個房子，對它的結構安全，甚至像剛剛委員提到的防災，其實它沒有辦法有任何的幫助。至於規模獎勵，其實我們也沒有說規模獎勵要大到很大，其實它只要有提到200平方公尺……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你的意思就是說……"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，大概60坪的土地就可以申請到規模獎勵，就200平方公尺，60坪左右，所以它沒有很大就可以申請到規模獎勵。此外，它原有30%的容積獎勵還是都有保留著，所以這差距的10%我們就是用規模獎勵取代，這一點是沒有變的，因為大致上過去找地方政府來談，他們也贊成，其實……"],["王委員鴻薇：那我就要看你們最後的成果。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛剛講了嘛，危老就是因為有時程獎勵，所以它的數量真的就比都更來得多很多，也加速了重建。","因為時間的關係，另外請教一下，去年0403花蓮地震一週年，當時有很多開紅單、黃單的件數，當時我們也提出了有補強的補貼，但是如果來看全臺灣，顯然當時核定的這些紅單、黃單的棟數，以目前來講，真正核定的件數事實上真的是遠遠低於當時紅、黃單的件數。應該是在上個月，在整個檢討的時候，在這一些補強案件裡面，花蓮有半數是卡在中央審查，我想請問一下進度，可不可以加強、加快進度？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，在過程當中，耐震補強的部分要經過結構的設計還有審查，在之前也有反映希望國震中心能夠再提供更多的人力，因為他們分3組，結果民眾認為還要再……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你現在是說因為人數不足？"],["吳署長欣修：對，國震中心後來有加快，因為它本來是3組人，後來有增加到5組人，就是希望透過這種方式加快審查。第二個是跟民眾溝通，因為有一些民眾對於哪些可以列入耐震補強項目、哪一些不屬於，過去一直有意見，我們前一陣子也都有請他們跟民眾溝通。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得在臺灣地震常常就是好了傷疤忘了痛，在一次大地震之後，過一段時間，大家好像有點遺忘，然後整個進度就開始牛步化，甚至是龜步化，可是我們永遠不知道下一場大地震什麼時候來。你剛剛在講人數的問題，我也覺得很驚訝，其實我們應該全力的，尤其這邊已經開紅單跟黃單。老實講，最近花蓮附近還是一直不停地有地震頻傳，所以在這個部分我希望……如果還有半數都卡在中央，你可不可以給我一個時間，你多久時間可以把它消化完成？譬如說兩個月、三個月？"],["吳署長欣修：我趕快找國震中心，看看他們最近的執行進度。"],["王委員鴻薇：給我一個時間吧！我必須要一個時間……"],["吳署長欣修：好，我會後提供委員這個報告。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那你就提出有關於花蓮地震目前耐震補強相關的資料，而且不是只有花蓮，我也關心臺北，臺北也很多耶！"],["吳署長欣修：對，臺北還有新北。"],["王委員鴻薇：很多！而且其實老實講並不容易，我們自己選區裡面，因為是不同的棟，然後它就是在那一部分，其實它很複雜，我們都很怕下一次地震來，因為它會影響到其他隔壁棟，它有些是連結的，這邊貼黃單，那邊沒有貼黃單，可是旁邊沒有貼黃單的也非常擔心，所以這個部分請加快腳步，好不好？拜託在我們會後，你可不可以一個禮拜之內給我們至少書面的說明？好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：OK！"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。下一位我們請邱志偉委員質詢，邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。","下一位我們請蘇清泉委員質詢，蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","下一位我們請林楚茵委員質詢，林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","下一位我們請楊瓊瓔委員質詢，楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","下一位我們請何欣純委員質詢，何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","下一位我們請陳冠廷委員質詢，陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員不在。","最後我們請鍾佳濱委員質詢，鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，我們詢答到此結束。高金素梅委員、邱鎮軍委員、丁學忠委員所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":46,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-18","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","麥玉珍","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","林俊憲","徐富癸","張雅琳","吳琪銘","王鴻薇","高金素梅","邱鎮軍","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、國家住宅及都市更新中心董事長就「都市更新與危老重建之執行成效及未\n來展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「都市更新條例增訂第四十\n四條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等23人擬具「都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例\n第三條及第十一條條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案綜合詢答並處理法律提案】","agenda_id":"1144701_00001"}}},{"id":"161100","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161100","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1fb392a95dfaf0c28d3023b910515704e97e39277836b040fe3908d7ab787057b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:28:26 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謝謝主席 因為來不及 剛剛有被跳號的來 我們是不是有請我們外交部我們次長 陳次長市長 請你請教一個問題是請問次長你知道 跟台灣 跟中華民國好了跟中華民國最近的國家是哪一個國家 距離最近"},{"start":30.305,"end":52.017,"text":"物理的距離 物理的距離最近哪一個國家是離中華民國最近的國家跟台灣啊 跟台灣島 跟台灣島 日本日本 它最南邊的雲南國島跟台灣島啦 因為還有金門馬祖所以跟台灣島最近的就是日本 是"},{"start":52.657,"end":67.964,"text":"日本與納國島跟台灣距離111公里這個與納國島過去在二戰前二戰前台灣跟日本就同一個日本日治時代所以二戰前"},{"start":70.265,"end":85.186,"text":"阿台灣跟這個羽納國島齁哇這個通商很平凡是人跟人的交流也很多對所以羽納國島現在有很多他們地方的棋佬是都會講台語的齁是齁都講台語是阿二戰後 娃 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部長好今天上午很多位委員就是關心我們這個進口豬還有這個萊克多巴胺的事件那我知道就是說我們全台灣進口的豬其實占不到"},{"start":30.525,"end":50.602,"text":"差不多一成左右而已啦差不多百分之十啦那國人使用這個豬肉的這個習慣很多都是使用這個溫體豬那其實我我會覺得就是說產地標示清楚讓消費者自己自己做選擇另外就是說有很多進口的這個"},{"start":52.083,"end":75.432,"text":"進口肉進口豬肉進來之後很多都是直接到那個加工加工食品貢丸啊肉乾啊之類的那如果說今天我們標示產地如果在超市的話其實你標示這個豬肉的產地民眾消費者可以很容易的去辨識然後可以去選擇我到底要不要吃進口的那如果"},{"start":76.393,"end":84.112,"text":"是在加工的食品譬如說貢丸肉乾之類的這種加工食品那"},{"start":86.144,"end":112.44,"text":"如果是散裝的如果今天這個貢丸他在超市在傳統市場他是用散裝的那他是這個用進口的豬肉去做的那你如果完全沒標示的話我消費者完全沒辦法知道這個豬肉的來源所以我這邊是不是可以要求就是說產地的標示除了這個很多都進到這個加工的部分然後那加工食品的這個部分你們要怎麼去規範"},{"start":113.609,"end":128.337,"text":"那個市長你要不要先這邊跟委員報告那我們針對所有的原料的豬肉的產地就是豬肉就豬肉的原產地的標示其實一直都有是在世界進行舉州剛才說的散裝的"},{"start":130.159,"end":150.921,"text":"豬肉原產地標示跟我們的包裝的貢丸也是都有標示如果今天我在傳統市場我買了貢丸散裝的那你們怎麼去規範說我買到的這個是台灣豬做成的貢丸或者是我買到的是進口豬肉做成的貢丸"},{"start":151.812,"end":167.007,"text":"消費者要怎麼知道跟在食安法的25條底下我們對於散裝食品的豬肉原料的原產地的標示其實是一直都有在進行的那他在販賣的場所裡面其實就會有揭露這樣子的一個訊息以上"},{"start":167.668,"end":179.661,"text":"好我希望就是說衛福部針對這一部分因為國人畢竟國人會擔心嘛那因為國人吃這個豬肉的這個習慣多數都是吃溫體豬而且對台灣的這個豬肉"},{"start":184.867,"end":211.077,"text":"它比較不會有那個腥味應該是說腥味那進口的這個豬肉很多都會有那種腥味所以國人還是比較喜歡食用台灣豬而且台灣豬的這個品質也比其他的都還好所以我是希望就是衛福部針對這部分應該是要求標示清楚不論是有包裝的加工的食品"},{"start":211.517,"end":217.568,"text":"不是去包裝或者是散裝都一定要要求標示清楚讓消費者自己去做選擇"},{"start":220.117,"end":244.196,"text":"我們國內國外都一體適用另外我們也希望也是要嚴格去查畢竟對於國人食的安全衛福部跟食藥署這邊要負很大的責任所以我們也希望除了標示之外嚴加的查查我覺得這個應該也是要做到的"},{"start":245.118,"end":269.833,"text":"是邊界的檢查以及市場的一個監測我們都會落實好 那署長你可以先回另外我想請教就是說部長我在那個人力銀行上面有看到就是說有醫材公司他們的徵材那他的這個徵材網頁上面就有特別提到就是說配合醫院手術跟刀及條壓"},{"start":271.837,"end":294.134,"text":"好那這個是在那個人力銀行應徵的這個工作性質就是配合醫院手術跟刀及調壓那經驗不拘不需要有工作經驗經驗不拘那我實際有請教就是也有問過目前在從事這樣工作的"},{"start":295.39,"end":314.85,"text":"的人確實就是醫師開這個腦部腦流那可能會裝一些醫療器材可能有這個醫療器材裝在腦部那引流的部分那這個醫材公司他的業務"},{"start":316.428,"end":334.321,"text":"他的業務就會到這個這個手術房裡面跟刀然後未來這個裝完之後可能這個病患的這個調壓腦壓什麼就是調節的部分也是由這個業務來做那部長你覺得這樣是正常的嗎我覺得是醫療是一個團隊也不能說誰單單做那個動作他就是"},{"start":343.601,"end":361.003,"text":"完全的負責 譬如說這個一定是腦外科的主治醫師指導的醫師 主導所有一切包括誰要做什麼動作 誰要做什麼動作我想應該就是主導者在領導這個團隊所以這個可能要看他"},{"start":362.943,"end":381.616,"text":"做的事情是在一種技術的協助還是有特別專業的成分我覺得專業還是在腦外科的一個主導的意思來主導所有的一切這個患者手術完之後回到家裡面"},{"start":383.957,"end":397.52,"text":"儀器可能也在他的這個腦部跟他的那個肚子裡面那可能要做一些腦壓的一個調節的部分那也許在短時間內可能有排定回診的時間那這個時間還沒到的時候有時候患者他就會直接請這個醫材公司打個電話然後請業務來幫他做這個調節"},{"start":407.562,"end":430.477,"text":"那你覺得這樣是合理的嗎或者是說未來如果這樣子出了問題那這個責任要算誰的我想只要還在調還在等於是說醫療的階段應該都是由主治醫師來負所有照顧的責任"},{"start":432,"end":459.137,"text":"那至於說各個專業或技術人員他能夠參與的層次我想主治醫師都要掌握而且都要負責我想應該不是由一個某一個成員單單去做那件事情因為那裡面其實是充滿專業的灌注在裡面他才會去做那個動作"},{"start":460.798,"end":472.094,"text":"我想這樣子還是我相信每一個那個去做的動作背後也是一個團隊思考那這個東西就是由負責的照顧的醫師應該要去擔負整個醫療的責任好"},{"start":476.5,"end":494.811,"text":"部長因為我今天要跟你講的就是說其實現在這個我們所有的醫療醫材真的是日新月異那我現在舉這個例子那另外就是說我們在長照的這個據點上面也有那個機器人也有機器人那"},{"start":496.652,"end":513.405,"text":"這個機器人可以跟裡面的這個阿公阿嬤可能聊天或幫他做一些那個送東西送藥那我想請教就是說未來就剛剛講的這個醫材方面或者是類似這樣機器人"},{"start":514.326,"end":537.262,"text":"那因為我在一兩個會期之前那時候也有特別提到就是說我們專業的這個醫學工程人員這個可能在這個醫院裡面都有可能負責這些醫療器材的部分那在之前大家會希望就是說因為現在這些儀器真的"},{"start":538.43,"end":545.698,"text":"真的確實要有這樣的一個專業的人來從事而不是我覺得就像剛剛講的這個這個醫材裝在腦袋裡面然後這個腦壓的調節"},{"start":551.96,"end":575.002,"text":"引流是由一個可能沒有什麼工作經驗的然後也沒有什麼醫療相關背景的人來從事這樣的一個工作那我想請教那個部長未來有沒有可能針對我們這個醫學工程師的這一部分會朝向這樣的這種想法或者是你們也會有"},{"start":576.464,"end":581.738,"text":"希望能夠有醫學工程師法這樣的一個立法"},{"start":583.271,"end":607.7,"text":"好,我想醫學工程的發展,這30年的發展真的是幫助我們醫療品質,整個團隊的醫療品質幫忙非常大就像今天早上那個江署長、江教授也有說台大他有一國也有相關的一個跨領域的一個相關的課程電子跟醫療"},{"start":609.774,"end":628.643,"text":"電子跟醫療其實都是結合在一起那至於說本身這個醫學工程師他要用什麼方式才能夠來肯定他的專業然後專業得到肯定這是我想我們以前當立委多年來也常常會碰到這個各個"},{"start":630.955,"end":643.505,"text":"專業人人他的一個怎麼樣去樹立他的專業當然樹立他的專業裡面對師生都比較好啦他的戲的發展那個生的發展但是怎麼樣但是"},{"start":644.832,"end":661.634,"text":"這樣的一個醫學工程師他的定義還有他的一個背景是應該怎麼樣這個他們的內部都還在討論那我們一直有跟他們在溝通那我們會絕對是尊重醫學工程師的一個專業"},{"start":663.356,"end":682.035,"text":"因為我是看到這個那個人力銀行這樣的應徵我會覺得工作經驗不拘沒有經驗也可以而且沒有相關背景也沒有關係來做這樣從事我們會認為是一個醫療行為那如果是這樣子的話其實其實我覺得是還蠻"},{"start":683.916,"end":702.066,"text":"蠻嚴重的一個問題所以我希望就是說因為我們未來可能有更多更多的這個醫療產業智慧型的醫療產業而且現在在民間這種智慧型的醫療產業其實還蠻蓬勃的所以我希望就是衛福部針對這部分應該要去好好的思考好的我們整體來思考謝謝黃委員謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":644,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時13分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，今天上午很多位委員關心進口豬還有萊克多巴胺的事件，我們全臺灣進口的豬其實差不多一成左右而已，差不多10%，而國人食用豬肉的習慣很多都是食用溫體豬，我會覺得產地標示清楚讓消費者自己做選擇；另外，有很多進口豬肉進來之後都是直接做加工食品，例如貢丸、肉乾之類的。假設今天我們能夠標示產地，如果在超市的話，標示豬肉產地可以讓民眾、消費者很容易辨識，然後可以選擇自己到底要不要吃進口的。關於加工食品，譬如說貢丸、肉乾之類的加工食品，如果是散裝的，例如今天這個貢丸在超市、在傳統市場是用散裝的，它是用進口的豬肉去做的，如果完全沒標示的話，消費者完全沒辦法知道這個豬肉的來源。","所以我這邊是不是可以要求，產地的標示除了……因為很多都進到加工的部分，那加工食品這個部分你們要怎麼去規範？"],["邱部長泰源：署長，你要不要先回答？"],["姜署長至剛：這邊跟委員報告，我們針對豬肉的原產地標示其實一直都有持續進行，比如剛才說散裝豬肉的原產地標示，以及包裝的貢丸也都有標示，目前一直在進行當中。"],["黃委員秀芳：假設今天我在傳統市場買了散裝的貢丸，那你們怎麼去規範，究竟我買到的這個是臺灣豬做成的貢丸或者我買到的是進口豬肉做成的貢丸，消費者要怎麼知道？"],["姜署長至剛：依據食安法第二十五條，我們對於散裝食品的豬肉原料原產地標示其實一直都有在進行，在販賣場所裡面其實就會揭露這樣子的訊息，以上。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我希望衛福部針對這一部分，畢竟國人會擔心，因為國人吃豬肉的習慣多數都是吃溫體豬，而且臺灣的豬肉比較不會有腥味，進口的豬肉很多都會有那種腥味，所以國人還是比較喜歡食用臺灣豬，而且臺灣豬的品質也比其他的都還好，所以我希望衛福部針對這部分應該要求標示清楚，不論是有包裝的加工食品、不論是包裝或者是散裝，都一定要要求標示清楚，讓消費者自己去做選擇。"],["邱部長泰源：有，這部分國內、國外都一體適用。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外，我們也希望要嚴格去查，畢竟對於國人食的安全，衛福部跟食藥署要負很大的責任，所以我們也希望除了標示之外，嚴加查察我覺得應該也是要做到的。"],["邱部長泰源：是，邊界的嚴查以及市場的監測我們都會落實。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，署長可以先回。","另外我想請教部長，我在人力銀行上面有看到醫材公司的徵才，徵才網頁上面就有特別提到：配合醫院手術跟刀及調壓，這個是在人力銀行應徵的工作性質，就是配合醫院手術跟刀及調壓；還提到「經驗不拘」，不需要有工作經驗。我有實際請教，也有問過目前在從事這樣工作的人，確實就是醫師開腦瘤可能會裝一些醫療器材，可能有醫療器材裝在腦部需要引流的部分，這個醫材公司的業務就會到手術房裡面跟刀，未來這個裝完之後，可能這個病患的調壓、腦壓調節的部分也是由這個業務來做。部長，你覺得這樣是正常的嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我覺得醫療是一個團隊，也不能說誰單單做那個動作就是完全的負責，譬如說這個一定是腦外科的主治醫師、執刀的醫師主導所有一切，包括誰要做什麼動作、誰要做什麼動作，我想應該就是主刀者在領導這個團隊，所以這個可能要看他做的事情是一種技術的協助，還是有特別專業的成分，我覺得專業還是在腦外科的主刀醫師來主導所有的一切。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，患者手術完之後回到家裡面，那這個儀器在他的腦部跟肚子裡面可能要做一些腦壓調節的部分，也許在短時間內可能有排定回診的時間，那這個時間還沒到的時候，有時候患者他就會直接打電話請醫材公司的業務來幫他做調節，你覺得這樣是合理的嗎？未來如果因為這樣出了問題，這個責任要算誰的？"],["邱部長泰源：我想只要還在醫療的階段，應該都是由主治醫師來負所有的照顧責任，至於各個專業或技術人員能夠參與的層次，我想主治醫師都要掌握，而且都要負責，應該不是由某一個成員單單去做那一件事情，因為那裡面其實是充滿專業的灌注在裡面，他才會去做那一個動作，我相信那個人去做的動作背後也是一個團隊的思考，這個就是由負責照顧的醫師應該要去擔負整個醫療的責任。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，部長，我今天要跟你講的就是說，其實現在所有的醫療、醫材真的是日新月異，除了我現在舉的這個例子，另外我們在長照據點上也有機器人嘛，這個機器人可以跟裡面的阿公阿嬤聊天，或是幫忙送東西、送藥，我想請教的是，剛剛所講的醫材方面或者是類似這樣的機器人，因為我在一、兩個會期之前也有特別提到，我們專業的醫學工程人員可能在醫院裡面都有，他們可能是負責相關醫療器材的部分。在之前大家會希望的是，因為現在這些儀器真的確實要有這樣的專業人員來從事操作，而不是像剛剛講的，醫材裝在腦袋裡面，然後腦壓的調節引流可能是由沒有什麼工作經驗的、也沒有什麼醫療相關背景的人來從事這樣的工作，我想請教部長，未來有沒有可能朝向設置醫學工程師這樣的想法，或者是你們也會希望能夠有醫學工程師法的立法？"],["邱部長泰源：我想醫學工程這30年的發展真的是對整個團隊的醫療品質幫忙非常大啦，就像今天早上姜署長、姜教授也有說，臺大有一個跨領域的相關課程，電資跟醫療其實都是結合在一起。至於說這個醫學工程師要用什麼方式才能夠讓他的專業得到肯定，我想我以前當立委多年來也常常會碰到各專業人員要怎麼樣去樹立其專業的問題，當然，能樹立他們的專業對師、生都比較好啦，對於相關科系的發展、對於學生的發展都比較有利，但是對於這樣一個醫學工程師的定義、背景應該怎麼樣，他們內部都還在討論，我們一直有跟他們在溝通，我們絕對尊重醫學工程師的專業。"],["黃委員秀芳：因為我是看到人力銀行的應徵條件要求在「工作經驗」的部分是「不拘」，也就是沒有經驗的人可以，沒有相關背景的也沒有關係，我會認為這是一個醫療行為啦，如果是這樣子的話……"],["邱部長泰源：這是比較奇怪一點。"],["黃委員秀芳：其實我覺得這是一個滿嚴重的問題，因為我們未來可能有更多智慧型的醫療產業，而且現在民間這種智慧型的醫療產業其實還滿蓬勃的，所以我希望衛福部針對這部分應該要好好的思考，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的，我們整體來思考。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：謝謝黃委員，謝謝部長。","現在休息6分鐘，稍後於王正旭委員質詢完畢就處理臨時提案。","休息（11時25分）","繼續開會（11時32分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳瑩","廖偉翔","陳培瑜","李坤城","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","劉書彬","劉建國","黃國昌","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲"],"page_start":163,"meetingDa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這個部長其實這個中央地方啦因為地方也負責非常多的一個交通的不管是他的規劃設計執法的一個工作啦但是因為整個政策的一個帶動的一個方向我還是希望交通部能夠有具體的一個方向"},{"start":179.171,"end":200.148,"text":"第二個我們再把這些事故縮短到在人行道把它縮小人行道發生的交通事故就是人走在正式人行道或者標線人行道等等還發生了事故我們來看一下在過去大概將近10年104年統計到今年的3月將近10年多一點的時間"},{"start":201.269,"end":216.22,"text":"先看一下總數總件數5700多件就是發生事故是在行人走在人行道上面發生的其實這是很不應該的其中也造成了48人死亡"},{"start":218.161,"end":232.327,"text":"7029人受傷這事故造成的一個傷亡的比例我是覺得蠻高的那當然看他的運劇來分類的話機慢車的比例是最多的機慢車包括了因為"},{"start":232.927,"end":260.825,"text":"很多是不是因為在人行道或者騎樓停車順便要出入的過程中還是有很多的一個情況發生這樣的一個行人在人行道發生事故這個部分今天營建署有來嗎營建署 蔡組長你來說一下好不好因為我看到你們的一個數字給我的數字這關鍵點就是說我們這十年發生這樣的一個情況然後呢"},{"start":262.028,"end":289.971,"text":"他的背景因為國土署你們是以人本的基礎不管是投入資金希望在整個道路上面分工上面人本的部分跟你關係比較大那你這邊特別數據說從100年開始到113年13年間我們人行道這是不得了從3200多公里到剛剛你給我的數據113年年底的話到了11000"},{"start":292.062,"end":304.034,"text":"多公里的人行道所以成長了3.4倍啊成長3.4倍那你要說一下這成長3.4倍對於這個人行道發現事故的話你覺得是主要什麼原因啊"},{"start":306.26,"end":335.465,"text":"你來表達一下你們努力了半天也成長了3.4倍那人行道發生事故的話還是你說是交通部的事沒關係我請交通部來說人行道的事故剛剛看委員所提供的這個表格其實看起來確實是汽機車行駛人行道所造成的行人的傷亡好那再一個問題你就可以稍微休息就是你11000多公里在這幾年快速成長有多少是標線型的人行道"},{"start":337.008,"end":353.508,"text":"有多少是標線型人行道嘛就加分之加嘛就油漆一劃下去人行道就多個兩公里大概有沒有去統計有統計標線型的嗎標線型目前沒有統計那你要統計一下好不好好那這個部分我再請部長"},{"start":355.267,"end":378.263,"text":"我要拜託您一件事啦至少我在桃園跟很多縣市看到這幾年要去突破你必須除了新有新的道路它就有人行道很多老舊的以前已經很有歷史的道路它就是這麼窄啦它真的沒有辦法有時候在水溝蓋弄平整就標線型的人行道就出來了我是不是能拜託您一件事啦"},{"start":379.243,"end":406.004,"text":"因為標線性人行道剛開始做先實驗性質我可以接受但是如果半年一年以後發覺確實有功能要長久來做行人通行的這個部分我要再拜託尤其從評估從通過的人最多的開始做起來加什麼第一個要不然最簡單是防撞感但是防撞感只是警示作用不太防撞那第二個是防撞"},{"start":407.484,"end":434.109,"text":"這個欄杆這在這個的部分我建議就是當標線型人行道已經劃設成為固定的能不能從人最多通行的評估開始來做防撞桿或者防撞欄杆這個部分我們希望交通部或是說應該是國土署你們未來補助也針對這個議題下去來幫忙甚至也能夠加入原石如果它變固定的"},{"start":434.989,"end":461.797,"text":"你要加一個路源時 可不可以朝這個方向來做呢好 報告委員 這個部分我們也會來補助地方政府如果地方政府願意這麼做的話在經費上有需要 交通部跟內政部國土署我們一起來協助他們好 這個是確實是有需要好的 那我也拜託國土署你要先統計啊你還是要真的要統計標線型的有多少然後各縣市呢 提供人通勤最多的可能學校旁邊或是什麼我是覺得要開始去做"},{"start":462.617,"end":480.971,"text":"那最後一個還是要拜託這要跟地方政府一起努力因為在比較有歷史的道路在過去的房屋其實它的設計都沒有人行道但是透過騎樓來通行的可是現在狀況因為我前幾天有民眾問我說某一條路奇怪怎麼都走在"},{"start":482.192,"end":503.082,"text":"快車道上面然後我就想其實你應該走在騎樓裡面只是因為時代久遠了騎樓它就蓋起來變店面了所以我是覺得第一個針對於有功能的騎樓要拜託要補助去做一個整平對於重要道路如果被違建"},{"start":504.002,"end":529.629,"text":"去無法貫通的我也要建議要鼓勵鼓勵來做至少指標性的這麼多人要通行重點開始去做這就是我個人的一個建議可不可以朝這個政策面去引導一下報告員我所知道國土署他們針對這個騎樓的貫通跟整平他們有一定的預算在補助地方所以可以鼓勵地方盡量做那中央的部分來協助經費的部分我們都會來做"},{"start":530.694,"end":534.888,"text":"好 來大家一起努力尤其標線型希望能夠加這個好不好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":748,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時17分）謝謝主席，有請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["魯委員明哲：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：因為今天時間不多，直接進入主題，剛剛很多委員有特別提到，當然您是去年才擔任交通部部長，一棒接一棒，事實上在過去十幾年來，有不斷地透過道路品質的改善、標線標誌的優化，甚至有些道安的教育講習，不斷地推動。但是我們來看整體的交通事故，從100年，那一年有31.4萬人受傷，到去年最高點，今年還有52.4萬，成長了將近超過20萬人受傷，死亡的人數也在上面，就感覺起起伏伏的。另外，事故的比率更為明顯，100年是20.6萬件，而112年最高峰的時候到達了40.3萬件，成長比率高達70%。部長請你先整體說一下，因為我看到你有蠻多的發言，但是回歸到事故，當然有很多駕駛因素或是什麼其他的因素，都有，那跟去年比起來是微幅向下修正，你覺得現在整體上大概有什麼樣的方法，能夠更有效地改善這樣的情況，以及減少傷亡的數字？請您說明一下。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實要改善交通的安全，方方面面很多事都要做，我們剛剛有提到最簡單的就是4個E，也就是教育層面、工程面、執法面、監理面，各方面我們都必須要做，在數據上面看起來確實112年是非常的高，113年不管是受傷或者是死亡人數有稍稍降低，我們當然不滿意也不滿足，我們必須要加快所有層面的努力，也感謝委員，其實你都一直很關注這個議題，在大家都關注的狀況底下，我們今年的數據看起來相對於過去的趨勢會更好一點。我們要做的路口設置一定要把它先做好，所以我們799處的改善已經先做了，省道的2,000處路口改善也先做了，不過後續還有更細緻的內容要去做，很多事情可能三言兩語講不完，跟委員做以上報告。"],["魯委員明哲：部長，其實中央、地方……因為地方也負責非常多交通規劃、設計、執法的工作，但是因為整個政策帶動的方向，我還是希望交通部能夠有具體的方向。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["魯委員明哲：第二個，我們再把這些事故縮小到人行道，關於人行道發生的交通事故，也就是人走在正式人行道或者標線人行道發生事故，我們來看一下，過去將近十年，自104年統計到今年的3月，將近十年多一點的時間，先看一下總數，總件數有五千七百多件是行人走在人行道上面發生事故，其實這是很不應該的。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["魯委員明哲：其中造成了48人死亡，7,029人受傷，我覺得這類事故造成的傷亡比例蠻高的，從運具來分類的話，機慢車的比例是最多的，機慢車包括了……因為很多是在人行道或者騎樓停車順便要出入的過程中發生的，還有很多情況會讓行人在人行道發生事故，關於這個部分，今天營建署有來嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：有。","魯委員明哲；請營建署蔡組長來說一下，好不好？因為我看到你們給我的數字，這個關鍵點就是這十年發生這樣的情況，然後它的背景……國土署是以人本為基礎，不管是投入資金，希望在整個道路分工上面，人本部分跟你們的關係比較大，特別是你們提供的數據，從100年開始到113年這13年間，我們的人行道真是不得了！這是剛剛你給我的數據，截至113年底，人行道從三千兩百多公里增加到一萬一千多公里，成長了3.4倍，你要說明一下，成長了3.4倍之於人行道發生事故，你覺得主要是什麼原因？來，表達一下，你們努力了半天成長了3.4倍嘛！對於人行道發生的事故……還是你覺得是交通部的事？沒關係啊！我請交通部來說。"],["蔡組長亦強：關於人行道的事故，剛剛看委員所提供的表格，看起來確實是汽機車行駛人行道所造成的行人傷亡。"],["魯委員明哲：好，我再問一個問題之後你就可以稍微休息了，一共是一萬一千多公里，人行道在這幾年快速成長，有多少是標線型的人行道？就是一直加嘛，油漆一劃下去，人行道就多個2公里，有沒有去統計？有統計標線型的嗎？"],["蔡組長亦強：標線型目前沒有統計。"],["魯委員明哲：那你要統計一下，好不好？這部分我再請部長……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["魯委員明哲：我要拜託你們一件事，至少我在桃園跟很多縣市看到，這幾年你們必須要去突破，有新的道路就有人行道，但有很多老舊的，以前很有歷史的道路就是這麼窄，它真的沒有辦法，有時候把水溝蓋弄平整，標線型的人行道就出來了，我是不是能拜託你們一件事，因為標線型人行道剛開始做，先以實驗性質，我可以接受，但是如果半年、一年以後發覺確實有功能，要長久來做行人通行的部分，我要再次拜託，可以評估從最多人通過的地方開始做起，要加什麼呢？第一個，最簡單的就是防撞桿，但是防撞桿只是警示作用，不太防撞；第二個是防撞欄杆，這個部分我建議，當標線型人行道已經劃設成為固定的，能不能從最多人通行的地方開始評估，開始來做防撞桿或者防撞欄杆，我希望交通部或者是國土署未來補助也要針對這個議題幫忙，甚至也能夠加路緣石，如果它變固定的，可以加路緣石，可不可以朝這個方向來做呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分我們也會補助地方政府，如果地方政府願意這麼做的話，在經費上有需要的話，交通部跟內政部國土署會一起來協助他們，這個確實是有需要的。"],["魯委員明哲：好的，我也拜託國土署要先統計，你們真的要統計標線型的有多少，然後請各縣市提供通行人數最多的地方，可能在學校旁邊等等，我覺得要開始去做。","最後一個還是要拜託，這要跟地方政府一起努力，因為在比較有歷史的道路，其實過去房屋的設計都沒有人行道，都是透過騎樓來通行，可是現在狀況……因為前幾天有民眾問我：某一條路很奇怪，怎麼都走在快車道上面？然後我就跟他講：其實你應該走在騎樓裡面，只是因為時代久遠，騎樓就蓋起來變店面了。所以我覺得，第一個，針對有功能的騎樓，也拜託要有補助去整平；對於重要道路，如果被違建影響到無法貫通的，我也要建議你們要鼓勵去做，至少做指標性的，這麼多人要通行，從重點開始去做，這就是我個人的建議，可不可以朝這個政策面去引導一下？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，就我所知，國土署針對騎樓的貫通跟整平有一定的預算在補助地方，所以可以鼓勵地方儘量做，中央來協助，對於經費的部分，我們都會來做。"],["魯委員明哲：好，大家一起努力，尤其是標線型，希望能夠加這個，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席（徐委員富癸代）：謝謝魯明哲委員的發言。","接著有請許智傑召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":162,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-10","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","張啓楷","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","林俊憲","陳雪生","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","黃捷","林國成","林月琴","張雅琳","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","涂權吉","蘇清泉","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部及教育部就「人本交通」及「交通安全」施行狀況進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計\n2案","agenda_id":"1144701_00003"}}},{"id":"161097","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161097","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1d5429a710db662ceebbe9609d4ca098397e39277836b040f8a3474509b675d045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"11:08:26 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好 謝謝部長因為你這樣說明就比較明確因為現在有的駕駛人一看到這個就在擔心說那他們現在是不是還要再去做一個更換或者是說沒有更換就會被罰我們不會要求現在現有的車子去做這個更換隔熱紙的動作因為我知道隔熱紙其實也不便宜不要增加大家的負擔那未來的新車我們就會管制"},{"start":246.602,"end":272.262,"text":"是好謝謝部長的說明那我們也看到就是說在這個賴總統在參加有關環路那個什麼環路全漁民的這個活動的時候也有宣示說這個全國799處的這個路口要優先來改善所以我們目前看到就是說這個達成率98%看起來這個達成率是可以說是非常滿意可是"},{"start":273.983,"end":295.588,"text":"以各縣市來看的話彰化縣的達成率卻是非常的低不曉得部長有沒有去了解這個部分報告員當時他確實工程發包上面是有一些進度上的問題目前應該他都已經完成了全部完工了嗎?對 全部完成了 那我們799處只剩下一處還沒完成那應該5月20號之前就可以完成"},{"start":295.968,"end":312.313,"text":"是好我想說這部分我們也希望就是說中央也可以盡力來協助地方來完成需要改善的這個路口那另外我們也看到就是說運營所在今年就是有公布了這個道路交通標誌標線號誌設置參考指引"},{"start":315.474,"end":338.199,"text":"當然我們也很肯定交通部就是做這樣子的一個指引可是我們也知道就是說有些道路的規劃就是有的是地方的權責有的是中央的權責所以難免會有中央地方事權不一的狀況所以有時候在這個指引公布之前其實地方就有他們的標線標誌的畫色那我不曉得說像"},{"start":339.76,"end":344.65,"text":"這個圖片中這樣子的一個標誌標線這是屬於地方的嘛那部長你知道這個是什麼"},{"start":346.527,"end":372.346,"text":"這個應該是他前面有一個圈圈的地方如果你要左轉你要越過那個圈圈再左轉那是圓環啊他一個小小很小的一個圓環我看對他的他的應該是用意思在告示用這個駕駛人前面有圓環的意思可是這樣子的標誌看起來就是讓網友戲稱為說好像畢卡索這個比較少見啊就我們所知這個應該是高雄市政府自己在示範"},{"start":373.326,"end":393.885,"text":"示範 因為我們看到的圓環是用立體的那個圓環的一個標誌的一個指示所以就是說要怎樣讓這個標誌標線可以一致或者是說我們中央的目前這個指引可以落實我想這個可能也是要交通部再做去進一步的一個檢討那最後一個問題就是說有關"},{"start":395.746,"end":409.493,"text":"這個死亡就是交通事故死亡人數的這部分剛剛部長在做報告的時候一開場就講到就是說2024年對比2023年的這個死傷的人數總死亡人數減少了2.4%那總受傷人數減少了2.8%可是我們就這樣子一個數字來看就是"},{"start":416.897,"end":441.61,"text":"針對這個大型車事故導致死亡的人數卻是增加的增加就是2024年比2023年增加了有13.7%所以針對這樣子一個特別的一個車型車種的一個事故我想這樣子也是蠻嚴重的因為即使之前我們為了要降低大型車事故我們在2018年就是有推動就是新車必須裝設行車視野輔助系統這樣子的一個政策"},{"start":446.373,"end":466.196,"text":"2020年也把他就是納為監理所要定檢的一個項目可是到今天2025年就是到去年2024年的統計的一個事故卻沒有減少是增加的所以對這樣子一個狀況我們交通部有沒有一個比較新的一個政策就是說針對這樣的交通事故我們要怎樣去調整"},{"start":467.623,"end":477.289,"text":"報告委員這個教育訓練的部分對駕駛的教育訓練的部分也是相當重要所以對於停讓的這個宣導我們當然會加強那另外針對大型車輛的這個駕駛如果他是高違規的這個風險我們都有一個調訓跟回訓的一個機制我們希望能夠讓他們透過重新的訓練讓他們的觀念能夠更好"},{"start":492.259,"end":515.249,"text":"那我們現在甚至針對這個行人的這個違規就是不停讓行人造成死傷的話不只是駕駛業者的這個管理者跟他的這個可能他的負責人都必須要來做調訓的部分那我們希望從宣導面也要加強當然輔助的設施要裝但是不一定能夠完全杜絕駕駛人的習慣才是最重要的那這個部分我們會來加強"},{"start":516.489,"end":545.572,"text":"對 是在上一次的質詢其實我有提到就是交通安全改善就是要四個面向就是四一就是這個監理 法治 工程還有就是罰則就是處罰四個面向所以這個教育的這個部分也是非常的重要所以就是說不管是從工程面的改善或者是教育或者是監理然後最後才是罰則所以我們希望就是說這個四個面向都要"},{"start":546.293,"end":549.546,"text":"就是平衡的一個重視好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":713,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（11時8分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：部長早。今天委員會的主題就是針對人本交通及交通安全施行的狀況進行詢答。我們也看到賴總統在去年國慶日的時候，有公開宣示要加速提升全國路網的安全。這個也是我們交通部的重點政策目標，我們也看到部長2月初的時候，在記者會宣示要道安三支箭，就是針對路口的照明、停止線再退縮，還有隔熱紙的透光率等等，要來提升交通安全。我在這邊想請教一下部長，你這樣子的道安三支箭，預計的內容或者是說你要怎樣去落實，預計多久的時間可以看到成果？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，針對行穿線跟停止線之間的距離，我們在今年的6月底之前會完成法制化，完成法制化之後，我們也會請地方政府先去盤點，因為有些地方雖然過去的規定是1到3公尺，但有些地方政府所劃設的停止線跟行穿線的距離可能不到1公尺，所以我們會拜託他們優先處理這一塊，距離太近的部分會先處理，6月份法制化之後，我們就會下去拜託地方政府。","另外，針對路口照明的改善，我們公路局目前有盤點了400處，在今年要來改善，目前已經完成了13處，在第3季我們會完成100處，今年會完成400處。另外，更關鍵的是地方政府，我們也會拜託他們幫忙，如果經費上需要補助，我們也可以協助，希望他們也針對自己市區的路口照明部分能夠加強。","最後一個就是針對隔熱紙的部分，我們6月份會有一個隔熱紙的相關指引，告訴大家未來前擋能夠貼的隔熱紙的透光率是多少、前側擋的透光率應該是多少，明(115)年我們就會進入法制化的階段，希望在明年完成法制化的推行，之後就會變成強制性要求大家一定要這麼做。"],["陳委員素月：好。因為一些習慣的改變可能還是需要宣導……"],["陳部長世凱：是，要有一段時間的宣導，所以我們會先有指引出來。"],["陳委員素月：對，因為有些駕駛人目前針對隔熱紙的部分有一些聲音，所以我們也希望要儘量去宣導這個部分對於交通安全的重要性，也不要說一下子就有罰則，可以慢慢地讓駕駛人習慣、改善。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分除了宣導之外，我們還會顧慮兩個部分，第一個就是，我們要考量到我們是東南亞國家，所以其實隔熱紙有它一定的必要性，因為我們這裡比較熱，太陽比較大，所以我們只是訂一個規範，規定多少的透光率以上，但不會告訴大家不能貼，所以要考量氣候，這是第一個。第二個考量到不要影響到大家的荷包，也就是說我們針對舊車的部分不會去要求，會針對未來的新車，就是當我們法制化之後，你牽的新車要貼隔熱紙，或是當要換隔熱紙的時候，就必須要照我們新的法規來做，這樣就不會造成民眾荷包的負擔。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝部長，你這樣說明就比較明確，因為現在有的駕駛人一看到這個就在擔心他們是不是還要再去更換，或是說沒有更換就會被罰。"],["陳部長世凱：我們不會要求現有的車子更換隔熱紙，因為我知道隔熱紙其實也不便宜，不要增加大家的負擔，未來的新車我們就會管制。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝部長的說明。我們也看到，賴總統在參加有關還路於民的活動時，也有宣示全國799處的路口要優先改善，我們目前看到達成率達98%，看起來達成率可以說是非常滿意啦！可是以各縣市來看的話，彰化縣的達成率卻非常低，不曉得部長有沒有去了解這個部分？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，當時它確實在工程發包上是有一些進度上的問題，目前應該都已經完成了，所以……"],["陳委員素月：全部完工了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：對，全部完成了，799處中只剩下1處還沒完成，應該在5月20號之前就可以完成。"],["陳委員素月：好，我想說這部分我們希望中央也可以盡力協助地方完成需要改善的路口。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有問題。"],["陳委員素月：另外我們也看到，運研所在今年有公布了道路交通標誌標線號誌設置參考指引，當然我們也很肯定交通部做這樣的一個指引，可是我們也知道有些道路規劃有的是地方的權責，有的是中央的權責，所以難免會有中央、地方事權不一的狀況，而在這個指引公布之前，其實地方就有他們自己的標線標誌劃設，像圖片中這樣的標誌標線是屬於地方的，部長，你知道這個是代表什麼嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這應該是它前面有一個圈圈的地方，如果你要左轉，要越過那個圈圈再左轉。"],["陳委員素月：那是圓環。"],["陳部長世凱：它有一個小小的、很小的圓環，我看起來是這樣。"],["陳委員素月：對，它的用意是在告示駕駛人前面有圓環的意思，可是這樣子的標誌就讓網友戲稱好像是畢卡索的畫。"],["陳部長世凱：這個比較少見，就我們所知，這個應該是高雄市政府自己在試辦。"],["陳委員素月：因為我們看到的圓環是用立體的圓環標誌指示，所以就是說要怎麼樣讓標誌標線可以一致，或是怎麼樣讓中央的指引可以落實，我想這個部分可能也是要交通部再去做進一步的檢討。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員素月：最後一個問題就是有關交通事故死亡人數的部分，剛剛部長在報告的時候，一開場就有講到，2024年對比2023年的死傷人數，總死亡人數減少了2.4%，總受傷人數減少了2.8%，可是我們就這樣的數字來看，針對大型車事故導致死亡的人數卻是增加的，2024年比2023年增加了13.7%，所以針對這樣一個特別的車型、車種的事故，我想也是蠻嚴重的。其實之前為了要降低大型車事故，在2018年就有推動新車必須裝設行車視野輔助系統的政策，2020年也納為監理所要定檢的項目，可是到今天2025年，就是到去年2024年的事故統計數字卻沒有減少，而是增加的，對於這樣的狀況，交通部有沒有一個比較新的政策？針對這樣的交通事故要怎麼樣去調整？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，對駕駛的教育訓練部分也是相當重要，所以對於停讓的宣導我們當然會加強。另外，針對大型車輛的駕駛，如果他是高違規風險的，我們都有調訓跟回訓的機制，希望能夠透過重新訓練，讓他們的觀念能夠更好。我們現在甚至針對對於行人的違規，就是不停讓行人造成死傷的話，不只是駕駛，業者的管理者以及他的負責人都必須要來做調訓。我們希望從宣導面加強，當然輔助設施要裝，但不一定能夠完全杜絕，駕駛人的習慣才是最重要的，這個部分我們會來加強。"],["陳委員素月：對。在上一次的質詢其實我有提到，交通安全的改善要四個面向，就是4E，就是監理、教育、工程還有罰則也就是處罰這四個面向，所以教育的部分也是非常重要。"],["陳部長世凱：是，教育也要做。"],["陳委員素月：不管是從工程面的改善或是教育或是監理，最後才是罰則，所以我們希望這四個面向都要平衡重視。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們請魯明哲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":162,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-10","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","張啓楷","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","林俊憲","陳雪生","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","黃捷","林國成","林月琴","張雅琳","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","涂權吉","蘇清泉","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部及教育部就「人本交通」及「交通安全」施行狀況進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計\n2案","agenda_id":"1144701_00003"}}},{"id":"161096","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161096","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c18ad81d49aedc4be7ebbe9609d4ca098397e39277836b040f3309862b0372d3b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"10:57:26 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{"start":630.969,"end":639.708,"text":"那麼就14號馬祖見,考察的時候也拜託部長多費點心好不好,你去馬祖因為沒去過幾次嘛好不好,謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":662,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（10時57分）謝謝召委。是不是請部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：部長早。電視上都沒有看到你的名字，你面帶微笑，政通人和。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：我看藍綠白立委對你好像沒什麼大的意見，恭喜！"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：高雄飛馬祖航線，謝謝我們許智傑召委，我們共同努力，還有陳其邁市長，這個是藍綠最佳的一個典範、範例，所以我昨天也致電陳培瑜書記長，馬祖還有很多事情，我們也希望藍綠共同來合作，這個很重要。上次去高雄飛馬祖航線，很可惜！我們很辛苦，我在這邊質詢台質詢了4年，好不容易爭取到飛一班，才一班！當然華信很辛苦，它沒有飛機、沒有機師，在這樣的情況之下，你看又是燃料油的問題，我們都找了中油等很多單位幫忙，部長那邊是最辛苦的，幫我們努力。"],["陳部長世凱：委員比較辛苦。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，有沒有機會再增加一班，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在先看運量，我們先一班飛飛看，如果是運量很充足，或者是需求大於供給的時候，我們供給面當然就想辦法來增加。"],["陳委員雪生：因為禮拜五這裡的客人飛過去，他沒有飛機回來，是不是？禮拜五飛過去，如果禮拜一、禮拜二有飛機回來的話，這一條線才叫完全打通。我們確實很努力在做這件事情，我也知道交通部很努力，我們藍綠白的立委大家都很辛苦在幫我們馬祖爭取，我非常感謝，尤其我們地方政府的王忠銘縣長，還有我們張永江議長，特別要我在這邊對部長表示感謝，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：大家一起努力，謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：另外，猛澳港到西莒這個地方的工程看似不大，但是非常艱巨，它的遊客中心啟用，葉局長很辛苦，早上飛過去，下午飛回來，把它啟用了。但是這個島，我前幾天上島的時候，兩百多個人上去，算是非常多的人，最近觀光，馬祖不如澎湖跟金門來得預期的那麼好，人數非常少，所以民眾也抱怨，等於就是旺季的時候才有人去，要5、6個月，可以說非常慘淡地經營。部長能不能督促觀光署風景管理處，這兩個島每一年增加一個景點，因為阿兵哥有廢棄的營區等等，稍微投入一、兩千萬弄個景點出來，讓觀光客到那邊有得走嘛！好不好？這個拜託部長好不好？你記下來。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來研究一下。"],["陳委員雪生：我們14號要去馬祖考察，這裡面大部分地方政府都是對交通部感謝啦，唯一的就是北竿機場還有點雜音，何局長今天沒有來，拜託部長跟何局長講，尤其是配套措施要注意好不好？委託港公司做嘛！港公司規劃設計還沒有出來，有一些施工的期程不是很清楚，請他們在簡報上對後續的噪音、一些交通的補助、對居民造成不便的，這些配套都提醒它注意一下好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我請他們儘量做比較詳細的說明。"],["陳委員雪生：因為這個說明會部長可能不參加，主要是由民航局來簡報。"],["陳部長世凱：請他們做更詳細的說明。"],["陳委員雪生：還有馬祖大橋，今天公路局有來嗎？馬祖大橋那天我在總質詢的時候，公路總局委託世曦做綜合規劃，綜合規劃已經也報院了，馬祖大橋在100年8月的時候，還有111年6月、111年12月，綜合規劃報院，112年，院裡面講說施工等到……因為跟北竿機場有關聯，它說等施工的時候再評估。另委託「連江縣南北竿跨海大橋規劃興建之探討」報告書，報告書送院，目前在行政院審查，交通部還沒有接到備查的程序嘛，我希望公路總局對這個部分還是緊盯著，好不好？另外能不能請公路總局給世曦一張函文？因為那天提到288億，是你們最後算出來的，是不是這樣？"],["陳局長文瑞：對，綜規的報告我們是288億。"],["陳委員雪生：後續院長嘴巴吐出來三百多億，很像是三百七十幾億，這個數字是英商那邊提出來的，我想英商提出來的數字絕對沒有世曦準確，是不是請交通部再函文給世曦，請他們精算好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：可是我們綜規裡面世曦已經做了精算。"],["陳委員雪生：綜規裡面是288億，但是它卻採用英商的報告說三百多億，三百多億跟兩百多億差很多，目前我們也沒有急，因為院裡面的粗估評估是要等北竿機場施工的時候討論這件事情，但是我們未雨綢繆，有一些東西先把它準備好，局長可以嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：世曦這邊相關計算的部分，我想我們會跟他們討論。"],["陳委員雪生：好，局長請回，這些拜託一下好不好？弄完以後跟我回報一下。風景管理處的橋仔遊客中心大概延宕一、兩年了，督促觀光署儘快把它完成，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：橋仔跟大坵的頭端，那個遊客中心動作快一點。馬祖現在工程很傷腦筋，錢、預算來了，工程發包不出去，我們的中山國中，就是北竿的中山國中，發包多少次？發包27次，最後縣政府為什麼要妥協呢？因為這個發包不出去的話，預算要繳回，那個錢好不容易爭取到手，肉已經到嘴巴口了，你說我們不吞下去嗎？所以減項發包，勉強廠商進場。類似的工程很多，馬祖那邊做工程非常辛苦，所以我拜託，因為還有砂石的問題等等。交通部這邊當然對我們很幫忙，有一些是透過小三通的貨船從大陸運砂石到馬祖來，馬祖缺工缺料很嚴重，所以拜託交通部，已經幫忙了，再更進一步好不好？","還有一個問題就是小三通我們通得非常不好，五一長假你看大陸來了很多到金門去，我們馬祖寥寥無幾，倒是我們去的人比較多。現在還有一個就是平潭，平潭的船要直航臺北港，當初國安的考慮是什麼呢？國安的考慮是他們的船過來，我們沒有船過去，因為要雙向嘛！但現在我們也大概找了一條船，準備從臺北港往平潭，這樣雙向就對等嘛！部長回去找航港局再研究一下好不好？這裡面可能還要跟陸委會磋商啦，因為現在兩岸的情勢非常不好啊！兩岸對峙得非常嚴重，因為不是攻臺了，現在在圍臺嘛！是不是？氣氛很不好，那我又擔心什麼呢？現在臺灣很多同胞、鄉親去大陸，比如老百姓這樣去自由行沒有問題，如果團去的話，或是比如說有一些團體去的話，可能會被調查、會被問話，所以他們有些也不報名了，就躊躇不前。陸客來這裡咧？我們也不放，為什麼咧？他來這邊我們都把他當匪諜啊！可能是不是刺探軍情或是收買我們人心或是搞一些統戰。"],["陳部長世凱：不會啦，不會把觀光客當匪諜。"],["陳委員雪生：所以這個兩岸的問題……"],["陳部長世凱：去年也來了三十幾萬人。"],["陳委員雪生：剛才我跟我弟弟在辦公室還在聊天，趕快去大陸，不去的話以後去不了了，因為人都有這樣的一個心理嘛！小兩會目前有沒有跟對方去接觸？"],["陳部長世凱：我們有跟他們接觸，但目前他們沒有比較善意的回應。"],["陳委員雪生：沒有善意回應啊？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：我上次去大陸杭州的時候，跟他們聊，他們說希望我們小兩會跟他們提出來。"],["陳部長世凱：我們有提啊！"],["陳委員雪生：有嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們有，我們有提。"],["陳委員雪生：好，我碰到他們的這些領導，有機會的話，我也希望能夠把兩岸的緊張情勢逐漸緩和，但是希望你們不要把我當匪諜好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：不會啦！"],["陳委員雪生：會不會？"],["陳部長世凱：不會。"],["陳委員雪生：用什麼反滲透法，等一下人家立法委員幹不成沒關係，被抓起來關了一下。這一點拜託部長，能夠在兩岸旅遊的部分努力，因為觀光業最近很慘。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分還是歡迎他們來。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝部長的協助，那麼就14號馬祖見，好不好？考察的時候也拜託部長多費點心，好不好？你去馬祖……因為沒去過幾次嘛！好不好？謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：好，謝謝召委。"],["主席：好，謝謝，我們請陳素月委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":162,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-10","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","張啓楷","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","林俊憲","陳雪生","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","黃捷","林國成","林月琴","張雅琳","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","涂權吉","蘇清泉","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部及教育部就「人本交通」及「交通安全」施行狀況進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計\n2案","agenda_id":"1144701_00003"}}},{"id":"161095","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161095","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1bc91eb9f6702466aebbe9609d4ca098397e39277836b040f76b3930739f4ced85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:35:16 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謝謝主席 本席邀請我們交通部陳部長請部長"},{"start":11.573,"end":36.641,"text":"董事長好部長好部長媒體報導交通部也已經同意開始要來推所謂的行人專用實相以及行人早開秒數這樣的一個設置這其實跟我在台南推動的非常吻合我也認為這個很重要為什麼呢因為路權不能用里讓的"},{"start":38.72,"end":45.932,"text":"路權不能靠你的道德自我訴求你看這國外的交通號誌沒有看到什麼禮讓行人"},{"start":47.438,"end":73.053,"text":"只有注意行人也就是這個時間秒數是屬於車輛的或者是屬於行人的你要分開啦例如在台南市的那個的那個永華路跟西門路口就台南的星光三越以前大愛麗智酒店前面那個路口那個路口車輛要左右轉都轉不過去為什麼 因為在百貨公司前面"},{"start":74.073,"end":87.029,"text":"那你要左轉右轉斑馬線都會有人在行走所以你就要等下來停下來 車輛要停下來 等行人走過去嘛對不對但是喔 開車一定會後悔整夜啦這人有危險啦"},{"start":88.702,"end":112.438,"text":"走路也會亂走 所以駕駛就心浮氣躁 是不是這樣所以我認為應該是要把路權分開車輛的時候歸車輛 行人的時候歸行人所以行人專用時向 甚至可以像就像日本這樣你可以走到對角線去因為行人在走路的時候 就沒有車輛在通行"},{"start":113.479,"end":139.866,"text":"那有車輛你在執行的時候你車輛通行的時候你斑馬線都沒有人這專用實相那另外一個你要推一個所謂的提早秒數那這個我認為當然專用實相效果最好那你行人提早專用秒數也可以解決一部分的這樣的一個問題只是交通部說有定一個目標那沒有達目標的縣市你要公佈"},{"start":141.243,"end":146.763,"text":"那如果有達目標的直轄市有獎金我看獎金只有15萬"},{"start":148.492,"end":149.172,"text":"直轄市15萬 其他我們還有分兩組15萬這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣這樣"},{"start":173.179,"end":184.561,"text":"更強有力一點你要要求縣市政府如果支持的話我們這個要求的力道會加強因為當然力道要加強因為這樣對改善交通非常有用"},{"start":185.673,"end":200.14,"text":"台北市也很嚴重啊你車輛要右轉都轉不過去啊寶馬縣都有人在走啊那行人走 行人也會怕啊會遇到不守規則的駕駛啊對不對 兩邊都不好啦專用石像是最好啦好 另外喔"},{"start":203.598,"end":219.972,"text":"我經常提到交通的三一你要推動一個交通政策以前第一個政府的部分有沒有做到第二個就是要求用路人第三才是處罰我們現在有訂一個行人專區行人專區"},{"start":230.518,"end":250.165,"text":"你的專用名詞叫什麼你這個專用名詞新人優先區你知道新人優先區吧報告委員這個我知道這個是國土署他們去設定國土署代表人在不在但這個母法是交通部跟內政部一起訂的"},{"start":252.011,"end":276.167,"text":"你的母法是高通鋪跟內政部一起訂只是你在市區內內政部你管那我跟主席建議一下像這個 因為你今天的主題是人本交通內政部應該要有相當層級的代表來出席才對"},{"start":277.612,"end":296.639,"text":"來啦 博鳥你們要做個看看 跟內政部的各方面看看第一個 什麼叫行人優先區在這個區段裡面 行人最大行人沒有造責 行人沒有責任行人可以走全路寬 幾條路行人都可以走 進民喇叭車輛前面有人 你不可以民喇叭第二個 速限只限20"},{"start":305.373,"end":325.8,"text":"第三 整條路都是他的 人最多只有車輛讓行人而且用一些 比如減速的減速的材質或路面鋪面全國只有一條路 現在事項你現在看到的 台北市啦 信義區啦部長你這樣 我們內政部的組長嘛 你看有這些什麼"},{"start":332.941,"end":341.966,"text":"第一個 你這樣的設計駕駛也不知道這裡是行人優先區走路的人 你走的放心嗎第一個 你那個鋪面也是柏油路我給你看一下你要訂這個法 當時交通部跟內政部合訂這個母法的時候你的立法的原由 理由你就說要二立本"},{"start":362.335,"end":389.839,"text":"那其實 韓國做得比日本還好我給你看韓國的韓國第一個 它的鋪面不會是柏油路啦駕駛到行人走到 走到這段路就知道說 欸 這裡的路面不是一般的路面大樹也會更知道不像台灣 台灣你現在 台北市事辦的第一條喔 它全部都是柏油路啦所以你開車的人喔 你不會知道你進入一個不一樣的路段"},{"start":391.274,"end":407.382,"text":"第二個 台北市就是在兩端 個化一個長條形的藍色你如果開過這個長條形的藍色你會知道 你會一直都知道你還在行人遊閒區嗎現在你告訴我 現在沒有這個代表說啦你如果要做得好 你也要這樣你試試看 我想問一件事喔你訂這個行人遊閒區幹嘛 對不對"},{"start":420.27,"end":442.76,"text":"第二你路面也沒有寫你要讓駕駛一直知道說他的行人都 雙方都知道我在行人優先區你怎麼會韓國這樣寫他路面標示很清楚對不對路面鋪設材質不一樣所以車輛跟人說知道我在特殊的地方特殊的路段第三 樹線標在地上樹線只有20甚至還有照明"},{"start":447.262,"end":471.064,"text":"這個照明這個看不清楚啦 它的路面是整個暗紅色的它不是像台灣只有頭尾兩端畫一個藍色的 中間過來就是柏油路它是整個路段 全部 韓國都鋪這種紅色的像磚面所以看到這個地方啊 駕駛行人都會知道所以你要嘛就不要設 要嘛你設了就很危險"},{"start":473.444,"end":485.231,"text":"所以這是我跟你說的喔 部長 回到我的觀念你政府要現在訂一個新的規定 沒關係但你政府的工程要先做你的硬體設計要設計好在你喔 你要把這個納入駕駛手冊甚至納入考試啊不然大家不知道 但是你不是喔我們現在馬上開始要調高罰則了喔就第三個才是處罰啦"},{"start":503.376,"end":531.398,"text":"交通部預告修正違反道路交通事件你現在要提高沒有禮讓行人的罰則6月就要實施了莫同你知不知道現在我們沒有禮讓行人是7200你要調高到18000了導致受傷的18000要到36000然後你如果輕傷 你如果肇事最少扣假照一年"},{"start":532.315,"end":561.109,"text":"比較嚴重的直接吊銷你如果要提高到這麼重的罰則可以但是我說的你該做的硬體工程中央跟地方政府該做的你應該做得好就像你部長我支持這也是我在北京推薦的一個觀念就是全時向的行人耗資你改全時向駕駛沒有讓行人這個很清楚你根本不能左右轉"},{"start":562.39,"end":575.416,"text":"這叫重罰 重罰駕駛嘛你不離讓行人因為我工程做好了對不對但是你現在啊準備要重罰未離讓行人但是在6月要開始實施以前"},{"start":576.684,"end":596.294,"text":"在你修改你的行政命令 到你開罰中間中央跟地方政府有去修 你有去做一些工程的改善嗎 交通路口的改善其實工程的改善 我們有一個四年四百億的計畫其實這些年 從去年到今年其實好過交通嗎 你數字會講話 你造勢建樹 受傷的人"},{"start":601.077,"end":620.049,"text":"都有在降低跟委員報告另外就是說您所提到的這個修更嚴的這個部分是針對行川線也就是斑馬線是針對斑馬線那其他的部分我們沒有改變只有斑馬線而且是撞傷人或者是撞死人沒有你沒有離讓你就中法了沒有離讓沒有離讓就是說你在6公尺內你如果車沒停這叫沒離讓是不是這樣子"},{"start":630.644,"end":653.089,"text":"這條適用的規定就是在入口就是在入口當然在入口啊那這個部分的話是在處罰條例現行的裁罰你把他加重嘛然後針對這個受傷跟智能撞傷的部分把他裁罰基準再拉高這個是針對已經撞到人"},{"start":655.578,"end":679.625,"text":"已經種到 你是一個分層級嘛 輕生跟重生嘛 好啊另外我剛剛提的 像你既然要推一個新的政策 新人專用區那就把它好好做好 工程面要做好 要做好另外你要對地方政府要求的新人全時向或者是新人早開利潤 這個要廣泛去推動了 好不好好 謝謝 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":586,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時35分）謝謝主席。本席邀請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長好。媒體報導交通部已經同意開始推動行人專用時相以及行人早開時相秒數的設置。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員俊憲：這其實跟我在臺南推動的非常吻合，我也認為這個很重要。為什麼呢？因為路權不能用禮讓的啦！路權不能靠道德自我約束，你看國外的交通號誌沒有什麼「禮讓行人」，只有「注意行人」，也就是這個時間、秒數是屬於車輛或者是屬於行人的，你要分開啦！例如臺南市的永華路跟西門路口，也就是臺南的新光三越（以前大億麗緻酒店）前面那個路口，那裡車輛要左、右轉都轉不過去，為什麼？因為在百貨公司前面，車輛要左轉、右轉時，斑馬線都會有人在行走，所以車輛要停下來，等行人走過去，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員俊憲：但是開車一定有人亂開，所以行人有危險；走路也有人亂走，所以駕駛就心浮氣躁，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：所以我認為應該要把路權分開，車輛的時候歸車輛，行人的時候歸行人，就是行人專用時相甚至可以像日本那樣，可以走到對角線去。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員俊憲：行人在走路的時候，就沒有車輛在通行，車輛通行的時候，斑馬線都沒有人，這是專用時相。另外就是推動所謂的提早秒數，我認為這樣的專用時相效果最好。行人時相提早專用秒數也可以解決一部分這樣的問題，只是交通部說有訂一個目標，沒有達到目標的縣市要公布，如果有達到目標的，直轄市有獎金，我看獎金只有15萬，這樣誘因夠嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：直轄市15萬，其他我們還有分2組。"],["林委員俊憲：第一，15萬的獎勵夠嗎？第二，目標是什麼？沒有達到目標你要公布而已，那目標是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們有設定一個目標值，各縣市其實也滿配合、滿幫忙的，專用時相和早開時相我們過去已經完成了6,000處……"],["林委員俊憲：你應該要更強有力一點，要求縣市政府……"],["陳部長世凱：委員如果支持的話，我們要求的力道會加強。"],["林委員俊憲：力道當然要加強啊！"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員俊憲：這樣對改善交通非常有用。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我們……"],["林委員俊憲：臺北市也很嚴重啊！車輛要右轉根本轉不過去，斑馬線都有人在走啊！行人走，心裡也會怕遇到不守規則的駕駛，兩邊都不好啦！專用時相是最好的啦！","另外，我經常提到我們的「交通3 E」，在推動一項交通政策以前，第一個，政府的部分有沒有做到？第二個就是要求用路人；第三才是處罰。我們現在有訂一個行人專區，部長知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：行人專區？"],["林委員俊憲：不是，你的專用名詞叫什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：行人優先區吧？"],["林委員俊憲：你這個專用名詞啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：行人優先區。"],["陳部長世凱：對，行人優先區。"],["林委員俊憲：你知道行人優先區吧？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個我知道，這是國土署他們去設置的。"],["林委員俊憲：我知道，國土署代表在不在？"],["陳部長世凱：有，今天……"],["林委員俊憲：但是這個母法是交通部跟內政部一起定的，只是在市區裡面，人行道是內政部在管。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：我跟主席建議一下，因為你今天的主題是人本交通，內政部應該要有相當層級的代表來出席才對啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是，有。"],["林委員俊憲：來啦！部長也一起看一下，內政部的官員也看一下。第一個，什麼叫行人優先區？就是這個區段裡面，行人最大，行人沒有肇責，行人沒有責任，行人可以走全路寬，整條路行人都可以走，並且禁鳴喇叭，車輛前面有人時，不可以鳴喇叭；第二個，速限只限20公里；第三個，整條路都是他的，人最大！只有車輛讓行人，而且用一些比如減速的材質或路面鋪面，全國只有一條路現在在試辦，就是你現在看到的臺北市信義區。部長還有內政部的組長，你看得懂這是什麼嗎？第一個，這樣的設計，駕駛也不知道這裡是行人優先區，走路的人走得放心嗎？另外，鋪面也是柏油路。我給你看一下，你要定這個法，當時交通部跟內政部核定這個母法的時候，立法緣由、理由就說要學日本，其實韓國做得比日本還好。","我給你看韓國的，第一個，它的鋪面不會是柏油路，讓駕駛跟行人走到走在這段就知道這裡的路面不是一般的路面，駕駛也會比較知道。不像臺灣，現在臺北市試辦的第一條全部都是柏油路，所以開車的人不會知道他進入一個不一樣的路段。第二個，臺北市就是在兩端各畫一個長條形的藍色，你如果開過這個長條形的藍色，你會一直都知道你還在行人優先區嗎？","部長，你現在跟內政部這位代表說，你如果要做就做好，不要這樣，萬一到時候發生事情，那麼你定這種行人優先區幹嘛，對不對？再來，你路面也沒寫，你要讓駕駛和行人雙方一直都知道他們在行人優先區，就要像韓國這樣寫，它的路面標示很清楚，對不對？路面鋪設材質不一樣，所以車輛跟人都知道他們在特殊的地方、特殊的路段。第三個，它的速限標在地上，速限只有20公里，甚至還有照明。這個照明在照片上看不清楚，它的路面是整個暗紅色的，不是像臺灣只有頭尾兩端畫一個藍色的，中間過來就是柏油路，韓國是整個路段全部都鋪設這種紅色的，像磚面，所以開到這個地方，駕駛、行人都會知道。所以你要麼就不要設，要麼你設了就很危險。","所以這像我在說的，部長，回到我的觀念，政府現在要定一個新的規定沒關係，但是政府的工程要先做好，你的硬體設計要設計好。第二，你要把這個納入駕駛手冊，甚至納入考試，這樣大家才會知道。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["林委員俊憲：但是你不是，我們現在馬上開始要調高罰則了，我認為第三個才是處罰啦！交通部預告修正，違反道路交通事件，你現在要提高沒有禮讓行人的罰則，6月就要實施了，部長知道嗎？現在我們沒有禮讓行人是罰7,200元，你要調高到1萬8,000元；導致受傷的，1萬8,000元要調高到3萬6,000；如果造成輕傷，你如果肇事，最少吊扣駕照一年，比較嚴重的是直接吊銷。你如果要提高到這麼重的罰則是可以啦，但是如同我說的，中央跟地方政府該做的硬體工程，你要去把它改好。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員俊憲：部長，我支持，這也是我在地方推動的一個觀念，就是全時相的行人號誌嘛！你改全時相，駕駛沒有讓行人，這個很清楚，你根本不能左右轉，這個叫重罰，重罰駕駛不禮讓行人，因為我們的工程做好了嘛！但是你現在準備要重罰未禮讓行人，在6月要開始實施以前，在你修改你的行政命令到你開罰中間，中央跟地方政府有去做一些工程的改善嗎？有做交通路口的改善嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實工程的改善，我們有一個4年400億的計畫，這些年從去年到今年，其實不少路口……"],["林委員俊憲：數字會講話啊！肇事的件數、受傷的人，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：都有在降低啦！跟委員報告，另外就是您提到修更嚴的這個部分是針對行穿線，也就是斑馬線，是針對斑馬線。"],["林委員俊憲：我知道。"],["陳部長世凱：其他的部分，我們沒有改變，只有斑馬線，而且是撞傷人或者是撞死人。"],["林委員俊憲：沒有，如果沒有禮讓，你就重罰了啦，沒有禮讓就是……"],["陳部長世凱：不是……"],["林委員俊憲：你在距離他6公尺內，如果車沒停下來，這就叫沒禮讓啦，是不是這樣子？不然請司長說一下。"],["陳部長世凱：司長講一下。"],["林司長福山：報告委員，這一條適用的規定就是在路口。"],["林委員俊憲：當然在路口啊！不然要在哪裡？當然是在斑馬線，我知道！"],["林司長福山：對、對。這個部分是在處罰條例現行的裁罰基準……"],["林委員俊憲：你把它加重嘛！"],["林司長福山：然後針對受傷跟致人重傷的部分，把它裁罰基準再拉高。"],["陳部長世凱：這個是針對已經撞到人的情形。"],["林委員俊憲：我知道，你是分層級，輕傷跟重傷。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["林委員俊憲：好。另外我跟你提的，你既然要推一個新的政策行人專用區，那就把它好好做好。"],["陳部長世凱：工程面要做好。"],["林委員俊憲：這樣好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["林委員俊憲：好。部長，另外你要對地方政府要求的行人全時相或者是行人早開綠燈，這個要廣泛去推動啦，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個我們來處理。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時47分）","繼續開會（10時57分）"],["主席：現在開始開會。","我們請陳雪生委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":162,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-10","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","張啓楷","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","林俊憲","陳雪生","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","黃捷","林國成","林月琴","張雅琳","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","涂權吉","蘇清泉","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部及教育部就「人本交通」及「交通安全」施行狀況進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計\n2案","agenda_id":"1144701_00003"}}},{"id":"161094","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161094","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1fda75469613f1bcbebbe9609d4ca098397e39277836b040f2368db663b262ab65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"10:25:22 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每一期嘛加起來應該是四十幾億 全部加起來兩百多億那這個到目前為止這兩百多億基本上從第一期執行到第五期大概我們都已經核定要給哪一個地方政府去做哪些停車場那現在已經全部都核定了"},{"start":80.54,"end":95.638,"text":"部長有沒有考慮就是以現在交通部掌握各地方停車場的空間需求在這五期通通做完之後各地方政府的需求狀況還是存在還是說已經幾乎很少了"},{"start":97.146,"end":114.197,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們也認為地方的這個停車的需求其實還蠻多啦所以我們目前還有擬定一個新的計畫要向行政院來爭取預算我們希望可以再匡列一些預算讓我們可以協助地方政府來做這個停車場所以部長你感覺我也是這樣覺得啦我認為這個前瞻計畫"},{"start":117.579,"end":136.026,"text":"這個五期當中編兩百多億來協助地方政府蓋停車場我認為這件事情是很重要因為民眾對於停車的需求這個當然跟過去計畫整體的發展都有關係啦但畢竟台灣現在就是這個樣子那大家對於停車的需求特別是"},{"start":136.986,"end":166.025,"text":"特定地區啦他其實真的有停車的這個需求特別是我們要開始執行對行人友善的這個計畫的時候很多時候他的爭執會出現在於過去停車方便現在可能我們要友善行人所以就導致他不能像過去這麼方便去停車但如果政府又沒有配套讓他有停車的地方那這時候我們友善行人的"},{"start":167.269,"end":182.067,"text":"社會對於行人友善的這個政策的美意恐怕又會打折又會挑戰又會質疑因為跟他的這個過去的停車方便習慣甚至有沒有空間可以讓他停車這兩者又會牽扯在一起"},{"start":182.868,"end":197.178,"text":"所以持續的去執行這件事情很重要那部長你有沒有預計在下一個階段就是說這個前瞻的五期做完之後我們還是一樣打算有多少預算規模要來持續對停車場興建做協助"},{"start":200.293,"end":226.691,"text":"報告委員 我目前是在跟行政院爭取60億的預算希望能夠再多匡列60億的預算來讓我們協助地方的停車需求已經在審查了所以換言之可能是明年的預算應該看起來是這樣我希望這個能夠持續來推動因為前幾天我們跟教育部在清水做會刊"},{"start":227.711,"end":255.983,"text":"那我們也發現現在很多的建築物因為要取得土地並不是太容易所以如果大型的這個建築物大型的公共工程要興建的時候同時考量停車場譬如說過去我們大甲利用國中禮堂興建那禮堂就在操場的旁邊那禮堂的興建同時讓操場的地下室跟"},{"start":257.941,"end":281.711,"text":"禮堂的地下室 活動中心的地下室一起同時興建停車場這個其實對於比較難停車的人口較集中的地方其實這是一個很好的方案啦 不然你要再去找一塊停車場用地我看是不容易啦那所以清水有一個大的案子 譬如說這個叫做要蓋那個室內的自行車館"},{"start":283.131,"end":311.696,"text":"那我看台中市政府他也在地下市規劃了停車場那我很支持啦我認為附近啊這個住宅林立那停車空間也不是太夠那如果能夠利用興建這個很大型因為這大型停車館大型的自行車館大概他是一個標準的國際比賽的場地那我相信這個預算大概要有10億的規模啦這個館所以他的地下空間一定很大"},{"start":312.316,"end":336.102,"text":"所以他們提出說是不是要連停車場一起來做那我知道前瞻已經結束了所以我們希望說如果未來還有這個六十億的預算我們會來積極協助台中市政府來爭取在清水地區興建這個共構型的這種地下停車場域部長到時候我在因為要先有預算我現在跟你講這個也沒用"},{"start":337.222,"end":357.641,"text":"到時候預算編了又給這個在黨刪掉我想那也沒用啦所以等預算通過之後我想我們會積極來協助地方政府來將這個停車的問題解決那同時停車的配套解決的好我們對於行人友善這個政策我覺得我們的執行的效率跟速度才會快"},{"start":358.421,"end":378.357,"text":"這第一個我想跟部長特別來要求也期待能夠這個預算能夠來通過如果我們爭取到預算的時候這個部分我們會優先來考量好謝謝部長那第二個部分我想這個我在去年有提了一個臨時提案也就是台中這個國道4號下來可不可以直接高速"},{"start":379.559,"end":395.039,"text":"用這個快速公路的方式連結現在的西濱也就是台61線那這個是路網的概念就是說台中市的最北邊台中市的最北邊如果國道4號跟"},{"start":395.599,"end":423.561,"text":"台61線連結台61線西濱公路就不會成為一條寂寞公路因為西濱在台中一路就是走自己的事情它跟大家都沒有用路網連結的概念所以雖然你走平面道路還是可以到但是我們的概念裡面一個城市快速道路的連結對於交通的疏解城市的發展其實它很重要所以西濱在台中就是一條寂寞公路它跟大家都沒有快速連結"},{"start":424.722,"end":450.858,"text":"所以本席過去一直希望北邊可以跟國道4號來連結南邊可以跟生活圈的道路就像部長過去在烏日當議員是一樣就是那個沿著烏溪可以生活圈的道路連結但生活圈的道路不是交通部業務所以我就姑且不提南邊的連結所以如果這個可以做一個連結就把大台中地區的最外環"},{"start":452.211,"end":475.453,"text":"最外環可以把它串接起來那這個最外環串接呢因為其中還涉及到台中港也跟部裡面關係有也跟你業務有關那部長你也清楚知道台中港目前正是蓬勃發展的階段我們不斷的在外移就是不斷的在興建新的碼頭在擴大對在擴大台中港的這個範圍所以呢"},{"start":476.494,"end":499.829,"text":"表示部裡面預期這個港未來會持續的這個進展發展所以我們事先未雨綢繆因為這個道路就算我臨時提案在交通委員會通過那運營所也提出跟本席回覆嘛說希望對對對說希望請這個高速公路局先啟動掀起評估所以換言之這個一路啊"},{"start":500.529,"end":525.975,"text":"本席去年一路到先期評估到後面要做到好這個其實還有一段很長的時間所以我的意思是說該做的先做因為你預期台中港會發展預期台中這個城市會越來越進步越來越發展所以這種路網的事先的預估架構跟評估其實相對是重要的所以部長你覺不覺得應該請高速公路局先來啟動這個先期評估讓國道4號跟"},{"start":529.897,"end":554.695,"text":"61線在北邊可以先做連結好 報告委員目前運援署他已經有做過初步的這個規劃跟研議啦那研議完之後認為是有這個需要性的所以我也要請高工局來同意這件事情就是先期的評估我們先來啟動那應該高工局也可以做得到啦先期的評估我們先來啟動先來啟動 先來做OK 好 那我們就是因為我做了這個臨時提案"},{"start":556.916,"end":575.771,"text":"運營所也做了專業的評估 認為應該要啟動這件事情對 應該要啟動所以應該沒有問題啦 局長沒有問題 這個部分沒有問題好 那就麻煩你們這個對大台中未來的整個路網的建立對台中港未來這個蓬勃發展之後交通運輸的動線其實都很重要現在麻煩大家 謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":536,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時25分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長早安。部長，我看了一下前瞻計畫，現在應該是進行到第5期了，在前瞻計畫當中，有編列補助地方政府興建停車場，這個部分大概編了41億，是嗎？前瞻裡面總共編了補助地方政府大概多少錢？"],["陳部長世凱：260億。"],["蔡委員其昌：兩百六十幾億？第5期啦！"],["陳部長世凱：中央編260億。"],["蔡委員其昌：每一期加起來應該是……"],["林司長福山：第5期四十幾億。"],["蔡委員其昌：全部加起來兩百多億嘛！"],["林司長福山：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：到目前為止，這兩百多億從第1期執行到第5期，大概我們都已經核定好要給哪一個地方政府去做哪些停車場，現在已經全部都核定了。部長，以現在交通部掌握各地方停車場的空間需求，在這5期通通做完之後，各地方政府的需求狀況是仍存在，還是已經幾乎很少了？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，有關這個部分，我們也認為地方的停車需求其實還滿多的，所以我們目前還有擬定一個新的計畫，要向行政院爭取預算，我們希望可以再匡列一些預算，讓我們可以協助地方政府設置停車場。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，我也是這樣覺得……"],["陳部長世凱：對，有需要、有需要。"],["蔡委員其昌：前瞻計畫這5期共編兩百多億協助地方政府蓋停車場，我認為這件事情很重要，因為民眾對於停車的需求，這個當然跟過去都市計畫的整體發展都有關係，但畢竟臺灣現在就是這個樣子，大家對於停車的需求，特別是特定地區真的有停車的需求。特別是我們要開始執行對行人友善計畫的時候，很多時候，它的爭執會出現在過去停車方便，現在可能因為我們要友善行人，所以就導致民眾不能像過去這麼方便停車。如果政府又沒有配套讓他們有停車的地方，這時候我們對行人友善的政策美意恐怕又會打折，又會被挑戰、又會被質疑，因為這跟民眾過去停車方便的習慣，甚至有沒有空間可以讓他們停車，這兩者又會牽扯在一起，所以持續地執行這件事情很重要。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，你有沒有預計在下一個階段，就是前瞻第5期做完之後，我們預計會有多少預算規模持續協助興建停車場？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我目前在跟行政院爭取60億的預算，希望能夠再多匡列60億的預算，讓我們協助地方的停車需求，這個已經在審查了。"],["蔡委員其昌：已經在審查了？換言之可能是明年的預算？"],["陳部長世凱：看起來是這樣。"],["蔡委員其昌：看起來是這樣？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：我希望這個能夠持續來推動。","因為前幾天我們跟教育部在清水做會勘，也發現現在要取得土地並不是太容易，所以大型公共工程要興建的時候要同時考量停車場，譬如過去我們大甲利用國中禮堂（活動中心）興建，禮堂就在操場旁邊，興建禮堂同時讓操場的地下室和活動中心的地下室興建停車場，這對比較難停車、人口較集中的地方其實是一個很好的方案。"],["陳部長世凱：沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：不然要再去找一塊停車場用地，我看是不容易的。所以清水有一個大的案子，譬如說這個是要蓋室內自行車館，我看臺中市政府也在地下室規劃了停車場，我很支持，我認為附近住宅林立，停車空間也不是太夠，如果能夠利用興建這個很大型的建築物，因為這個自行車館是一個標準的國際比賽的場地，預算大概有10億規模，所以它的地下空間一定很大，他們提出是不是要連停車場一起來做，而我知道前瞻計畫已經結束了……"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以我們希望如果未來還有這個60億的預算，可以積極協助臺中市政府來爭取在清水地區興建這個共構型的地下停車場域。部長，到時候我再……"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為要先有預算，我現在跟你講這個也沒用，到時候預算編了又被在野黨刪掉，我想那也沒用啦！"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以等預算通過之後，我們會積極來協助地方政府解決停車的問題，我覺得停車配套解決得好，對行人友善這個政策的執行效率和速度才會高又快。這是第一個我想跟部長特別要求，也期待這個預算能夠通過的。"],["陳部長世凱：好，就是爭取到預算的時候，這個部分我們會優先來考量。"],["蔡委員其昌：謝謝部長。第二個部分是我去年提了一個臨時提案，就是臺中國道4號下來可不可以直接用快速公路的方式連結現在的西濱，也就是臺61線？這個是路網的概念，就是臺中市的最北邊如果國道4號跟臺61線連結，臺61線西濱公路就不會成為一條寂寞公路，因為西濱在臺中一路就是走自己的，它跟大家都沒有路網連結的概念，雖然走平面道路還是可以到，但是在我們的概念裡面，城市快速道路的連結對於交通的紓解、城市的發展是很重要的，所以西濱在臺中就是一條寂寞公路，它跟大家都沒有快速公路連結。本席過去一直希望它北邊可以跟國道4號連結，南邊可以跟生活圈道路連結，就像部長過去在烏日當議員的主張是一樣的，就是沿著烏溪可以跟生活圈道路連結。當然，生活圈道路不是交通部的業務，所以我就姑且不提南邊的連結。如果這個可以做一個連結，就可以把大臺中地區的最外環串接起來，這個最外環的串接還涉及臺中港，這就跟你的業務有關了。部長也清楚知道臺中港目前正是蓬勃發展的階段，我們不斷在外移，就是不斷在興建新的碼頭……"],["陳部長世凱：在擴大。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，在擴大臺中港的範圍，表示部裡面預期這個港未來會持續進展、發展，所以我們未雨綢繆，因為這個道路就算我的臨時提案在交通委員會通過，運研所也跟本席回復，說希望……"],["陳部長世凱：有這個研究計畫。"],["蔡委員其昌：對、對、對，說希望請高速公路局先啟動先期評估。換言之，本席去年提案之後，一路從先期評估再到後面要做到好，其實還有一段很長的時間，所以我的意思是該做的先做，因為你預期臺中港會發展，預期臺中這個城市會越來越進步、越來越發展，所以這種路網的事先預估、架構和評估相對是重要的。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長，你覺不覺得應該請高速公路局先來啟動這個先期評估，讓國道4號跟臺61線在北邊可以先做連結？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前運研所已經做過初步的規劃和研議，研議完之後認為是有這個需要性的，所以我也要請高公局來同意這件事情，就是先期的評估先來啟動，應該高公局也可以做得到，先期評估先來啟動、先來做。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK，因為我提了這個臨時提案，運研所也做了專業的評估，認為應該要啟動這件事情。"],["陳部長世凱：對，應該要啟動。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以應該沒有問題啦！局長？"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題，這個部分沒有問題，我們會來做。"],["蔡委員其昌：那就麻煩你們，這個對大臺中未來整個路網的建立、對臺中港未來蓬勃發展之後的交通運輸動線都很重要。再麻煩大家，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席（許委員智傑）：謝謝。","我們請林俊憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":162,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-10","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","張啓楷","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","林俊憲","陳雪生","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","黃捷","林國成","林月琴","張雅琳","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","涂權吉","蘇清泉","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部及教育部就「人本交通」及「交通安全」施行狀況進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計\n2案","agenda_id":"1144701_00003"}}},{"id":"161093","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161093","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1340b77edeee9d185ebbe9609d4ca098397e39277836b040fe07d3bc095bcb0085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"10:17:08 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我們有請陳部長請陳部長委員好 部長長 部長我剛剛看了一下我們剛剛有國民黨跟民眾黨的委員提到我們這個嘉義市輕委的這個事情"},{"start":25.287,"end":50.878,"text":"部長應該在記者會也講得很清楚我想說這是一個幕僚作業的一個疏失但是我想國民黨跟民眾的委員應該不會這麼簡單幫你做是不是請部長再說明一下到底這件事情到底是什麼一個情況好不好報告委員其實不管是針對輕軌或者是捷運系統目前像委員就很清楚在屏東也有在爭取捷運系統"},{"start":51.818,"end":70.617,"text":"那對交通部來說對中央政府來說我們都是一致性的原則也就是說這是地方主導那中央來補助包含可行性研究這一次的這個嘉義輕軌的這個案子的可行性研究也是嘉義市政府來做也是由嘉義市政府來做所以其實它的主導是由嘉義市政府來主導"},{"start":71.278,"end":87.386,"text":"那我們中央的角色除了協助之外還有補助這個部分其實全國性都是一致的那所以剛剛不管是哪位委員所提到的我都講一樣的話你像這個高雄的捷運要接到"},{"start":88.666,"end":107.515,"text":"這個高鐵站要接到高鐵站左營高鐵站的那個捷運也是地方出的錢比中央還要多像我自己出生的都市台中市也是一樣我們的捷運綠線要串接到高鐵站一樣是地方出的比較多中央來補助一定的比例那所以其實我們全國性都是一致的啦"},{"start":108.115,"end":127.722,"text":"那一天的狀況其實是幕僚準備的那個資料他那個順序的擺法其實讓院長有一些小誤解那這個部分我們非常的抱歉我昨天在面對記者的時候我也有先道歉過那我今天也再道歉這個沒有問題這個非常抱歉但我還是必須要謹守一件事就是全國一致性的原則"},{"start":128.622,"end":149.161,"text":"部長這個要講清楚啦不然這個責任很重大那我們也看到這個國民黨跟民眾黨的委員一手砍預算所以我相信你現在對整個全國的交通的建設你也偷偷聽啦現在我們就不能處理啦所以該怎麼樣一個公平性的處理真的要一個標準就好了我們大家都好好做事啦"},{"start":152.083,"end":162.088,"text":"最近台幣升值帶動出國的潮流,會不會對國旅造成很嚴重的衝擊?報告委員,匯率確實會影響到我們的觀光以去年來說,去年日幣突然跌了非常多"},{"start":171.013,"end":191.392,"text":"那我們台灣的民眾就會覺得去日本玩好便宜那寧願出國所以去年確實有大量的民眾跑到日本去玩那今年日幣稍微比較升值了那台灣的民眾往日本我們看那個數據看起來就會降低一些啦那最近這一兩三天很快速的台幣有一個升值的這個狀況出現那會有兩個層面的影響一個是我們的國人出國會變便宜"},{"start":196.136,"end":213.075,"text":"消費會覺得更便宜那另外一個層面是其他國家來到台灣旅遊會覺得比較貴例如說美金現在兌換台幣可能對美金比較不利美國的旅客來到台灣他就會受到一些影響那這個部分當然短期之間看不出那個影響可是長時間我們會有擔心所以我會請這個觀光署"},{"start":217.56,"end":236.679,"text":"密切的關注我們目前進出國的這個數據包含來的這些國家的一些數據如果有需要提供一些補助或者是一些協助的話觀光署會很快速的來擬定方案來協助我們的旅行的業者部長這我還是建議我們還是要把這個拉高到我們行政院這個"},{"start":237.559,"end":256.461,"text":"觀光產業振興的諮詢會議裡面要做一個很詳細的討論沒錯尤其在我們相關跨部會的整合上面怎麼樣給予我們國旅業者更多的優惠跟補助的一個方案不能失衡太嚴重這樣真的很危險沒有錯我們還是希望來台灣玩的旅客可以多一些"},{"start":257.623,"end":266.786,"text":"部長我想我們前陣子我們交通委員會也有到大鵬灣去考察嗎那我相信部長也很喜歡我們整個大鵬灣的一個環境那現在大鵬灣面臨幾個問題我還是要請部長這邊來幫忙一下部長因為過去這個我們大鵬灣國家風景區設立的時候"},{"start":274.729,"end":293.556,"text":"制定一個都市計畫的理想性太高了那所以造成這個我們周邊土地的使用強度被拉低那造成這個業者跟民眾這個投入的意願降低很多那目前我們油氣區用地的建壁率只有15%容積率45%那要開發的時候"},{"start":294.836,"end":316.672,"text":"還必須要退縮道路5公尺讓這個開發案困難重重那當然我們目前有1、有2、有3已經在進行這個BOT照商的一個作業目前進度順利嗎目前官方署給我的回報目前是順利啦所以我們希望說有1、有2、有3的這個BOT案可以在今年底完成簽約完成簽約之後就可以啟動"},{"start":318.053,"end":345.344,"text":"那另外除了郵一郵二郵三之外我想我們周邊包含這個郵四到郵八這部分我們也希望我們民間能夠同步來啟動啦因為不能只有我們這個這三塊起來 其他旁邊又破爛也不對啊所以我們應該是整理開發那但是現在面臨的問題是我們郵七郵八過去有提到我們在這個內政部有提到要辦一個勢力重劃但是我們認為這樣比較不可行"},{"start":346.144,"end":367.265,"text":"影響的層面太大而且時間拉長太長而且涉及到超過一千個地主所以我們是建議說如果說由觀光署來主導政府來開闢有七有八的周邊石流條的道路那這樣子是不是可以讓地主能夠後續再做一個整合我想這個方向部長認同嗎"},{"start":368.565,"end":384.404,"text":"報告委員 這個部分您有提到過啦那我又請觀光署這邊我們再來研議看有沒有這樣的可能性有沒有這樣的可能性如果可以的話 法令上法規上可行的話我們就朝這個方向來推動當然因為我們考慮到我們捧館處的人力比較不足"},{"start":385.205,"end":402.705,"text":"那如果可行的話我想我們來協調縣政府也願意來代辦這樣的一個工作那大家趕快盡快把這個地方來開吧那另外我想不然我們到大鵬灣去的時候都說一時吃喝玩樂都沒問題啦但晚上比較沒有地方可以去"},{"start":403.286,"end":432.365,"text":"那我在交通委員會質詢的時候我也特別提到說我們這個大鵬灣的這個夜間觀光競技的部分必須要加快來速度那尤其像我們鵬灣塊大橋這個光環境的部分那甚至我想我們看到奧地利有一個布雷根茲音樂節有一個水上劇場那我想我們大鵬灣的灣浴室很適合來做這樣一個水上的一個電幕劇的一個演出我想可以吸引很多國內外的遊客那部長"},{"start":433.326,"end":458.492,"text":"願不願意來促成這樣的一個活動然後把我們東港營網的一個主題可以納入做一個我們的一個表演的一個主題好 包委員我覺得這都是很好的想法跟發想啦那我們當然BOT的案子我們要趕快往前推進那另外就是海上的晚上的一些活動我們其實之前在屏東我們有討論過幾次那當然您所提的這些建議都非常好的建議我們請觀光署這邊來研議看要怎麼協助"},{"start":459.252,"end":471.324,"text":"地方政府來推動 部長那就請國防署一個月之內給我們一個規劃的一個報告好不好好 我們希望能夠看能不能在暑假的時候就可以來實現這樣一個地務局的一個表演好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":498,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（10時17分）謝謝主席，我們有請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長早。部長，我剛剛看了一下，因為剛剛有國民黨跟民眾黨的委員提到嘉義市輕軌的事情，我想部長在記者會上應該也講得很清楚了，這是一個幕僚作業的疏失嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["徐委員富癸：但是我想國民黨跟民眾黨的委員應該不會這麼簡單就放過你，是不是請部長再說明一下這件事情到底是怎麼一個情況？好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實不管是針對輕軌或者是捷運系統，委員就很清楚，像屏東也有在爭取捷運系統，對交通部來說、對中央政府來說，我們都是一致性的原則，也就是說，這是地方主導，中央來補助，包含可行性研究。這一次嘉義輕軌案的可行性研究也是由嘉義縣市政府來做，所以其實是由嘉義市政府來主導，我們中央的角色除了協助之外，還有補助，這個部分其實全國性都是一致的。所以剛剛不管是哪位委員提到的，我都講一樣的話，像高雄的捷運要接到高鐵站……"],["徐委員富癸：要跟我們屏東……"],["陳部長世凱：要接到左營高鐵站的那個捷運也是地方出的錢比中央還要多。像我自己出生的都市──臺中市也是一樣，我們的捷運綠線要串接到高鐵站，一樣是地方出的錢比較多，中央來補助一定的比例，所以我們全國性其實都是一致的。那一天的狀況其實是幕僚準備的資料，它的順序跟擺法讓院長有一些小誤解，這個部分我們非常地抱歉，我昨天在面對記者的時候已經有先道歉過，我今天也再道歉，這個沒有問題，這個非常抱歉，但我還是必須要謹守一件事，就是全國一致性的原則。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，這個要講清楚，不然到時候這個責任很重大。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["徐委員富癸：我們也看到國民黨跟民眾黨的委員一手砍預算，我相信你現在對整個全國的交通建設也很頭痛，可能也不知道要怎麼處理了，該怎麼公平性地來處理，真的是一個標準就好了，這樣大家都比較好做事。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，最近臺幣升值帶動了出國潮，這樣會不會對國旅造成嚴重的衝擊？部長有沒有什麼因應的方案？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，匯率確實會影響到我們的觀光。以去年來說，去年日幣突然跌了非常多，臺灣的民眾就會覺得去日本玩好便宜，寧願出國，所以去年確實有大量的民眾跑到日本去玩；今年日幣稍微比較升值了，我們看到臺灣民眾往日本去的數據就會降低一些。","最近這兩、三天，很快速地臺幣有升值的狀況出現，這樣會有兩個層面的影響，一個是我們的國人出國會變便宜，消費會覺得更便宜；另外一個層面是其他國家的人來到臺灣旅遊會覺得比較貴，例如說美金，現在兌換臺幣可能對美金比較不利，美國的旅客來到臺灣就會受到一些影響。這個部分當然短期之間看不出那個影響，可是長時間我們會有擔心，所以我會請觀光署密切關注我們目前進出國的數據，包含來的這些國家的數據，如果有需要提供補助或者是協助的話，觀光署會很快速擬訂方案協助我們的旅行業者。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我還是建議我們要把這個拉高到行政院觀光產業振興諮詢會議裡面，做很詳細的討論。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["徐委員富癸：尤其在相關跨部會的整合上面，怎麼樣給予我們國旅業者更多的優惠跟補助方案，絕對不能失衡得太嚴重，這樣真的很危險。"],["陳部長世凱：沒有錯，我們還是希望來臺灣玩的旅客可以多一些。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，前陣子我們交通委員會也有到大鵬灣去考察，我相信部長也很喜歡整個大鵬灣的環境，但是現在大鵬灣面臨幾個問題，我還是要請部長來幫忙一下。部長，因為過去大鵬灣國家風景區設立時所制定的都市計畫的理想性太高了，使得周邊土地的使用強度被拉低，造成業者跟民眾投入的意願降低很多。目前我們遊憩區用地的建蔽率只有15%、容積率45%，要開發的時候還必須要退縮道路5公尺，使得相關開發案困難重重。當然，目前遊一、遊二、遊三已經在進行BOT招商的作業……"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們正在招商。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，目前進度順利嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：觀光署給我的回報目前是順利的，我們希望遊一、遊二、遊三的BOT案可以在今年底完成簽約，完成簽約之後就可以啟動。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，除了遊一、遊二、遊三之外，周邊包含遊四到遊八的部分，也希望我們民間能夠同步啟動，因為不能只有這三塊動起來，其他旁邊的土地卻只能荒廢也不對啊，所以我們應該是整體開發。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["徐委員富癸：但是現在面臨的問題是，針對遊七、遊八，過去內政部有提到要辦理市地重劃，但是我們認為這樣比較不可行，這個影響的層面太大、時間拉得太長，而且涉及到超過1,000個地主。所以我們建議如果由觀光署來主導，政府來開闢遊七、遊八周邊16條道路，然後讓地主在後續再整合，請問這樣的方向，部長認同嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分您有提到過，我也有請觀光署研議看看有沒有這樣的可能性，如果可以的話，法令上、法規上可行的話，我們就朝這個方向推動。"],["徐委員富癸：當然，考慮到鵬管處的人力比較不足，如果可行的話，我想我們來協調縣政府，也願意來代辦這樣的工作，大家儘快把這個地方來開發。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，部長，我們到大鵬灣去的時候，都說白天的吃喝玩樂沒有問題，但晚上就比較沒有地方可以去。我在交通委員會質詢的時候，也特別提到大鵬灣夜間觀光、競技的部分必須要加快速度，尤其像我們鵬灣跨海大橋光環境的部分。甚至我們看到奧地利的布雷根茲音樂節有一個水上劇場，我想我們大鵬灣的灣域很適合做這樣水上定目劇的演出，應該可以吸引很多國內外的遊客。部長願不願意促成這樣的活動，然後把我們東港迎王納入做為表演的主題？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我覺得這都是很好的想法跟發想，當然，BOT的案子我們要趕快往前推進。另外就是海上的、晚上的一些活動，我們其實之前在屏東有討論過幾次，當然您所提的這些建議都是非常好的建議，我們請觀光署這邊來研議看要怎麼協助地方政府來推動。"],["徐委員富癸：好，那就請觀光署一個月之內給我們一個規劃報告，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒有問題。"],["徐委員富癸：我們希望看看能不能在暑假的時候就可以實現這樣一個定目劇的表演。謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員發言。","接下來請蔡其昌委員質詢。在這邊先宣告一下：林俊憲委員質詢後休息10分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":162,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-10","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","張啓楷","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","林俊憲","陳雪生","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","黃捷","林國成","林月琴","張雅琳","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","涂權吉","蘇清泉","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部及教育部就「人本交通」及「交通安全」施行狀況進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計\n2案","agenda_id":"1144701_00003"}}},{"id":"161092","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161092","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1016e17198ae073bbebbe9609d4ca098397e39277836b040f32fe287ba23c3e1c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"10:08:57 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謝謝主席 主席我們請交通部陳部長請陳部長國賢好 部長好我想各縣市都很需要交通部的資源 節育建設好不好我們先進到今天的主題 今天談論是所謂的這個鞋子安全的部分我想部長我也非常的關注交通部的這個臉書是 謝謝國賢"},{"start":25.222,"end":54.634,"text":"部長提過這個所謂道岸三支箭有提到說要來改善這個路口的行人穿越道的照明那在先前的這個質詢裡面我也跟部長討論過是不是能夠把這個行人穿越道的照明把它列成一個通案不要只是用示範因為過去台中市在2022年2023年的這個照明的這個示範的成效也都蠻好而且一般民眾的評價也都很高我想部長也知道那我要問的是說部長在這個李教牧夜館單位裡面來講你們只有"},{"start":55.714,"end":73.65,"text":"以省道路口為主嘛那很多的市區道路我想因為市區道路當然部長我剛才連說這是地方政府這個責任但是我想這個行人安全的道安的部分應該是全國一切的政策所以我要提這個建議說這部分有沒有可能也把這個市區道路口納入整個的改善計畫裡面甚至是說"},{"start":74.651,"end":95.13,"text":"編列相關的預算不管是交通部也好或是隔壁的我們這個內政部的國土署也好因為像很多道路除了交通部管之外在這個都市計畫裡面的道路很多是國土署來管但是因為大家想到交通安全當然會覺得主管機關就是交通部嘛那我們也期待說是不是有機會去編列相關就像人行道一樣人行道現在各地方都在做"},{"start":95.751,"end":124.305,"text":"那這帶很多錢這個都外屬於交通部都內屬於國土署這個是這樣分的沒錯就是說我希望說這有一個整體的規劃不要說但錢由誰來支出這是你們行政院各部會去分工這個我沒有意見但是我意見是說既然要把這個所謂的行人安全做好的話是不是能夠有一個很明確的專案把所有的至少大型路口或幾公尺以上路口來把它列入所謂的這個行人安全的道安計畫裡面部長"},{"start":126.019,"end":147.635,"text":"報告委員您的這個建議很好我們目前所做的當然我們自己轄管的是省道的路口我們會優先來做那我們也透過跟縣市政府的聯繫的匯報裡面我們其實也都拜託縣市政府要去做那剛剛委員在提醒一點在經費上能不能夠協助其實我們跟國土署在這個行人永續安全提升計畫裡面其實他們還是可以提出申請"},{"start":148.636,"end":177.722,"text":"這個部分我們都可以來協助那至於要不要在另外成立一個專案我們來跟國土署這邊來商量或許我們可以做一個專案來鼓勵地方政府針對專門針對這個路口照明的部分我們來做一個計畫我們來延伸好 部長謝謝因為之前這個行人道案的部分當然是針對人行道那我現在講的是穿越馬路的部分因為確實有很多地方不管是路燈也好還是晚上有的人沒開車燈也好各種有奇奇怪怪的狀況發生我們期待說所有的至少在"},{"start":178.402,"end":200.833,"text":"一定比例的入口的部分 至少在市區也好 省道也好它的照明能夠明確一點 至少讓駕駛人能夠看到 那當然我有看到說你這個隔熱紙的透光率的管理等等的 這都是一併的啦我是覺得這是整套的要好好去執行 好不好部長好 沒有問題接下來我想這也是最近這些新聞可以看到說一些車禍我想是對於這個行人的死傷也造成蠻大的影響就是說這個"},{"start":204.52,"end":220.299,"text":"人到車主我跟部長反映一下有的地方是拆了有地方沒有拆那有地方是自己社區自己裝好但是會被檢舉說這個是影響性的通行所以被迫要一定要把它拆掉那有的身障者會來投訴說"},{"start":221.46,"end":247.237,"text":"依法他們那個寬度要1.5公尺但是這個車主很多地方在做車主的時候他是可能他的寬度差不多大概就是90公分或幾公分而已所以讓很多的可能身心障礙者他沒辦法通行那當然我知道很多人裝這個車主的目的就希望大家不要違規停車嘛這是這個台灣很多這個文化的問題那所以這個到底車主的部分是有沒有一個相關的法令能夠去執行這樣一致的去做"},{"start":248.138,"end":262.764,"text":"因為你這個東西保護行人重點還是要保護行人我們在這個人行道上面我們希望能夠保護行人不要讓車子不管他爆衝也好還是不小心也好衝到上面撞到行人這部分的話不知道在整個"},{"start":263.484,"end":278.539,"text":"整體的規劃裡面,你們怎麼去規劃這件事情?報告委員,我所知道的是國土署這邊已經有做相關的規劃,也有參考日本他們的模式,那國土署如果可以提供一些資料的話,是不是可以麻煩國土署?"},{"start":280.212,"end":296.841,"text":"這個部分國土署他們因為比較市區道路比較會用得到所以國土署這邊目前已經有在做討論了我們所知道的是這個樣子我們看一下下一頁其實確實啦各國有我們的自己的路源設計規範有美國的設計規範也有日本的這個交通安全的對策範例好 國土署可以請國土署回應 謝謝"},{"start":299.451,"end":313.071,"text":"主席委員那針對這個車主的部分其實就剛剛委員講的其實社會有不同的需求那從避免車子上人就來看是應該要做那目前我們有針對其他國家針對車主的強度"},{"start":315.775,"end":341.836,"text":"就是說車主設置的強度我們現在在訂一個跟地方政府會檢討出一個設置的規定那第二個問題是剛剛委員所提的說到底哪裡要設那這件事情會比較牽涉到基本上我們是比較贊成在路口轉角都把它設起來因為避免車子上但這一塊是在台灣的民警上面有一些路口的店家或者通行的需要要克服那這個可能還是要回到個案去檢討會比較適合一點"},{"start":343.317,"end":367.315,"text":"那在入口的左右兩側我們會優先推動去設置來保障行人跟車子的安全這樣因為像現在啦現在已經有所謂的路源設計範例嘛我們現階段就有這個東西那美國也有日本也有各國都有這相關的東西我是說我們現在參考的車主的部分那我先確定一下所以車主原則上我們是往要裝的方向做啊只是要裝什麼樣的材質什麼樣的規範還沒討論出來是這樣嗎"},{"start":369.917,"end":398.409,"text":"應該是說車主本來我們現在在推行段線退縮那入口本來就會空出來那空出來的部分本來就應該用車主跟能幹去做那避免車子上去是車主本身強度的問題那就是工程設計那要不要設我們是朝向要設的方向在推動那這部分但是因為入口店家各方面比較多我們有一些部分需要地方政府跟民眾來溝通跟客服這樣那這個大概什麼時候你們會有比較具體的方案要多久"},{"start":399.395,"end":412.812,"text":"車主本身設置的部分我們在近期就會有一個比較明確的規定把國外對於車主強度設計的東西引用進來那設置的地點這個本來就可以做是持續在各個工程裡面去做推動"},{"start":415.287,"end":443.88,"text":"但是它沒有辦法說一致性啦就是說每一個路口都去做那這件事情在目前來看是會有一點點沒關係我的意思說當然各地方啦知道說執行就是地方政府執行嘛那我說你現在會有一個比較明確的規範出來是什麼時候會有規範出來那各地方政府不管預算也好或是去執行也好我們現在就是說變成現在各地方政府各自各自各各自有的是水泥有的是塑膠有的是別的有的是鐵條那今天"},{"start":445.111,"end":471.013,"text":"不管內政部也好還是說交通部也好是會有一個明確的規範說以後用什麼樣的材質在什麼地方多大如果要裝會有這樣的規範出來跟委員報告不會有材質的規定會有強度的規定好什麼時候會有我們在最近這一個月會請地方政府來做討論跟檢討那基本上會先引用國外的規定好謝謝主席謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":462,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（10時8分）謝謝主席，主席，我們請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好。我想各縣市都很需要交通部的資源，尤其是捷運建設，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員健豪：我們先進入今天的主題，今天要談的是所謂行人安全的部分，部長，我也非常關注交通部的臉書……"],["陳部長世凱：是，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員健豪：部長提過所謂道安三支箭，有提到要改善路口行人穿越道的照明，在先前的質詢時，我也跟部長討論過是不是能夠把行人穿越道的照明列成一個通案，不要只是試辦，因為過去臺中市在2022年、2023年時照明試辦的成效也都滿好的，而且一般民眾的評價也都很高，我想部長也知道。部長，我要問的是，以交通部這個業管單位來講，你們只有以省道路口為主嘛……"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["黃委員健豪：至於市區道路，當然我知道部長會說這是地方政府的責任，但是我想行人安全的道安部分應該是全國一致性的政策，所以我要提的建議是，有沒有可能把市區道路的路口也納入整個改善計畫裡面？甚至編列相關的預算，不管是由交通部也好，或是由內政部國土署也好，因為現在很多道路除了交通部管之外，都市計畫裡面的道路有很多是歸所謂國土署來管，不過因為大家想到交通安全當然會覺得主管機關就是交通部，我們也期待是不是有機會去編列相關預算，就像人行道一樣，人行道現在各地方都在做，這當然需要很多的錢，都外的部分屬於交通部，都內的部分屬於國土署……"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["黃委員健豪：這個是這樣分配沒錯，只是我希望這個能有一個整體的規劃。當然，錢由誰來支出是由行政院各部會去自行分工，這個我沒有意見，但是我的意見是，既然要把所謂行人安全做好的話，是不是能夠有一個很明確的專案，把所有的……至少大型路口或幾公尺以上的路口要列入行人安全的道安計畫裡面？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您提的這個建議很好，我們目前所做的，當然，我們自己轄管的是省道的路口，這個我們會優先來做。但我們透過與縣市政府的聯繫會報，其實也都有拜託縣市政府要去做，剛剛委員有再提醒一點，在經費上能不能夠協助？其實在我們跟國土署的「永續提升人行安全計畫」裡面，他們還是可以提出申請，這個部分我們都可以來協助。至於要不要再另外成立一個專案，我們跟國土署這邊來做商量，或許我們可以做一個專案，鼓勵地方政府專門針對路口照明的部分，我們來做一個計畫，我們來研商。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長，謝謝。之前行人道安的部分是針對人行道，我們現在講的是穿越馬路的部分，因為確實有很多地方，不管是路燈也好，還是晚上有的駕駛沒開車燈也好，會有各種奇奇怪怪的狀況發生，我們期待至少能有一定比例的路口，不論是市區也好或省道也好，它的照明能夠明確一點，至少讓駕駛能夠看到。當然，我看到道安三箭還包括隔熱紙透光率的管理等等，這些都是一併的，我覺得這是整套的，要好好的去執行，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，沒問題，我們會努力。"],["黃委員健豪：接下來，從最近的新聞可以看到車禍對於行人的死傷也造成滿大的影響。關於人行道車阻的部分，我跟部長反映一下，有的地方是拆了，但有的地方沒有拆，有的地方是社區自己裝的，但是被檢舉會影響行人通行，所以被迫一定要把它拆掉，有的身障者會來投訴，因為依法那個部分的寬度要1.5公尺，但是很多地方所做的車阻的寬度大概就是90公分或幾公分而已，導致很多身心障礙者沒辦法通行。當然，我們知道很多人裝車阻的目的是希望大家不要違規停車，這是臺灣的文化問題，部長，車阻的部分到底有沒有相關法令能夠去執行，然後一致地去做？因為這個東西的重點還是要保護行人，我們在人行道上面設的車阻是希望能夠保護行人，不要讓車子不管是暴衝也好還是不小心也好，不要衝到上面撞到行人，針對這個部分，不知道在整體的規劃上，你們是怎麼去規劃這件事情的？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我所知道的是國土署已經有做相關的規劃了，也有參考日本的模式，國土署如果可以提供一些資料的話，是不是可以麻煩國土署？"],["黃委員健豪：好。"],["陳部長世凱：因為市區道路比較會用得到，所以國土署目前已經有在做討論了，我們所知道的是這個樣子。"],["黃委員健豪：確實啦，螢幕上的簡報有列出了我們自己的路緣設計範例，還有美國規範設計範例及日本交通安全對策範例。"],["陳部長世凱：委員，需要國土署回答嗎？"],["黃委員健豪：好，可以請國土署回應，謝謝。"],["蔡組長亦強：主席、委員。針對車阻的部分，其實就如剛剛委員所講的，社會有不同的需求，從避免車子上人行道來看是應該要做。目前我們有參考其他國家針對車阻的強度，就是針對車阻設置的強度，我們現在跟地方政府會檢討出一個設置的規定。","第二個問題是剛剛委員提到的到底哪裡要設？這件事情基本上我們是比較贊成在路口轉角都設置起來，以避免車子上來，但這一塊在臺灣的民情上，可能有一些路口店家或者通行需要的問題要克服，這個可能還是要回到個案去檢討會比較適合一點。在路口的左右兩側，我們會優先推動去設置，來保障行人跟車子的安全。"],["黃委員健豪：因為現在已經有所謂的路緣設計範例，我們現階段就有這個東西，美國也有，日本也有，各國都有這個相關的東西，我是說我們現在參考的車阻的部分，我先確定一下，針對車阻，原則上我們是往要裝的方向做，只是要裝什麼樣的材質、什麼樣的規範還沒討論出來，是這樣嗎？"],["蔡組長亦強：應該是說，我們現在在推行穿線退縮，那麼路口本來就會空出來，空出來的部分本來就應該用車阻跟欄杆去做，避免車子上去是車阻本身強度的問題，那是屬於工程設計，至於要不要設，我們是朝向要設的方向在推動，這個部分因為路口店家、各方面比較多，有些部分還需要地方政府跟民眾來溝通跟克服。"],["黃委員健豪：這個大概什麼時候你們會有比較具體的方案？要多久？"],["蔡組長亦強：車阻本身設置的部分，我們在近期就會有一個比較明確的規定，把國外對於車阻強度設計的東西引用進來。至於設置的地點，這個本來就可以做，是持續在各個工程裡面去做推動，但是它沒有辦法一致性，就是每一個路口都去做，這件事情在目前來看是會有一點點……"],["黃委員健豪：沒關係，我的意思是說，當然我們知道執行是由地方政府執行，你說現在會有一個比較明確的規範出來，請問什麼時候會有規範出來，讓各地方政府不管預算也好或是去執行？現在變成各地方政府各自做各自的，有的是水泥，有的是塑膠，有的是別的材質，有的是鐵條。今天不管內政部也好，還是交通部也好，是不是會有一個明確的規範，規定以後車阻要用什麼樣的材質、在什麼樣的地方、多大的路口要裝？會有這樣的規範出來嗎？"],["蔡組長亦強：跟委員報告，不會有材質的規定，會有強度的規定。"],["黃委員健豪：好，什麼時候會有？"],["蔡組長亦強：我們在最近這一個月會請地方政府討論跟檢討，基本上會先引用國外的規定。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。主席，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員質詢。","接下來邀請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":162,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-10","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","張啓楷","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","林俊憲","陳雪生","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","黃捷","林國成","林月琴","張雅琳","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","涂權吉","蘇清泉","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部及教育部就「人本交通」及「交通安全」施行狀況進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計\n2案","agenda_id":"1144701_00003"}}},{"id":"161091","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161091","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c15a8f523232157d80ebbe9609d4ca098397e39277836b040fa478bf4b7292ce505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:58:20 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還有機場線那些其實都是中央組織來興建的齁把嘉義縣市排除在外 有點不公平是不是可以請你們再努力做一個討論辦法然後研議呢有一個徵集喔 這個工程款是374億如果中央可以負擔的話 是工程款本身的374億地方只負責用地會用的0.66億跟嘉義縣的0.94億"},{"start":107.394,"end":107.774,"text":"好 保定"},{"start":122.287,"end":141.526,"text":"院長清清楚楚講 你是交通部長 你要站在旁邊啊這句話 不是只有嘉義市人看到的 全國都看到的啊怎麼可以再撬回去呢可以反悔呢 這是公開的打自己的這個嘴巴第二個沒有 更重要 更重要院長說真正的癥結卡在哪裡他說用地啊"},{"start":143.1,"end":170.784,"text":"嘉義縣跟嘉義市政府都講了我們願意承擔這個費用吧一個0.66一個0.6億一個0.9億我們都承擔啊那問題就解決啊更重要的來我們來看你是台中人嘛台中嘛台中的那個捷運綠線什麼樣出現的報告委員地方出比較多中央出比較少中央你要看看喔我統計給你看來所有高鐵的另外的道路"},{"start":172.642,"end":187.634,"text":"不管是鐵路 後來這個捷運都是中央出的錢啊你怎麼可以漏掉 漏掉 漏掉嘉義嘉義縣市咧嘉義縣市可不可以省錢報告委員台鐵當然是中央但如果是輕軌跟捷運系統都是中央支持地方來興辦"},{"start":189.178,"end":215.071,"text":"那個基捷是不是基捷除外基捷是為了機場基捷除外其他的你像台中基捷為什麼要除外因為它是重大工程對不對那是因為國家門戶國家門戶啊嘉義縣市這不重要嗎嘉義縣市很重要啊很重要那你就告訴我為什麼要獨落我們委員您剛剛所提到的台中綠線地方出的錢也比中央更多啊"},{"start":216.235,"end":235.708,"text":"是吧然後台北的捷運台北的捷運串接到台北火車站也就是跟高鐵站串接的地方捷運系統也是地方出比較多全國都是一線的單純是地方的像嘉義市也有規劃以後還有幾條輕軌對不對那個地方我們自己來付他說橫跨嘉義縣市而且是一個國家重要的"},{"start":236.368,"end":255.394,"text":"那就是應該比照這個季節來做嘛我再給你看一個台北的體育運用跨縣市不是嗎部長我當然也跨縣市等一下我說比照季節來做第二個我給你看一個公文94年的公文我先問你現在嘉義輕軌還沒做現在有BRT對不對"},{"start":258.331,"end":276.023,"text":"當初BRT的錢是誰出的 誰去建的高通伯瑪 剛管境外企業負責的高通伯瑪對不對BRT是當初是中央做啊 交通部做啊現在輕軌當然也是交通部做啊來看一下高滾當時已經做了BRT啊"},{"start":276.343,"end":281.405,"text":"當初先做BRT是交通部做的對不對行政院94年來合併喔做了一個很重要的宣示喔這個顏柳規劃清軌的這個事情考量當初的財政狀況跟運量的需求"},{"start":300.049,"end":313.687,"text":"當初人比較少嘛現在印量已經增加了嘛太保站那邊下來的人現在跟比南港上的人還多所以他的流量是夠的嘛 對不對有需求了嘛後面這句話請貴部貴部什麼樣交通部對不對"},{"start":316.021,"end":331.921,"text":"硬量的成長的情形要適時提出輕軌計畫就是要叫你們做嘛第一個你們現在提了沒有報告委員第二個有沒有叫你們要你們說我可以說嗎好報告委員您大概不了解對行政院來說各縣市的捷運系統都是由交通部提出的"},{"start":332.702,"end":361.444,"text":"各縣市送到交通部交通部在提出但交通部提出不代表交通部全部出錢這一點非常清楚各縣市的輕軌或捷運都是一致性的所以不要只有看到這句話就擴大解釋中...我看嘉義縣市也開了好幾次會啦包括你們協助專家都邀請來了現在兩個點嘛第一個 這個公文上面清清楚楚要你要繼續像BRT那樣做嘛對不對 不要擴大解釋沒有啦沒有你剛剛講的那些都是後話啦本來有在討論說要不要第一點嘛"},{"start":361.784,"end":389.384,"text":"現在今天就是兩個點嘛第一個我公文都是給你看的我也給你一次公文啊你要 你依據公文你要做啊對行政院來說當初PRT是交通部做的當初的行政院也叫你要做嘛他沒有叫我們要做啊對啊這是第一點第二點我剛剛講你為什麼不能夠比照機場捷運你是看我自己他不看不清楚機場捷運是因為桃園機場是國門保證現在更重要的為什麼行政院長那如果您這樣說的話我是不是也看不起我們自己台中人"},{"start":390.271,"end":410.376,"text":"你人家很粗啊 董事長你人家很粗啊是不是啊 已經蓋完了啊你把手給我站起來他們彰化 他們現在站起來彰化的立委可以幫他們爭取啊為什麼 全國都是一致性的來啦 國進現在同情了啦 全國都是一致性的部長現在最重要的啦是行政院長清清楚楚在國會跟大家講372個你要出嘛 對不對"},{"start":412.404,"end":436.63,"text":"報告委員我已經解釋過那是幕僚所提供的資料讓院長誤解了這一點我非常抱歉我昨天道歉過一次我今天再道歉一次嘉義人不要你誤解嘉義人要你解決問題嘛啊你行政院長宣布當初你當初有問題那天你就應該數數他這樣講對不對高雄的左營站他所串接的捷運也是中央補助地方出比較多的錢"},{"start":437.11,"end":458.082,"text":"都是一樣的所以你都去挑一部分你為什麼不挑像季節這樣好了明明就可以幫嘉義嘉義縣市一個發展的為什麼不動各縣市的捷運只要串接高鐵都是中央出錢並不是這樣這是錯誤的說法來來來 柏定現在最新的柏定現在最新的最重要的嘛行政院長公開講了嘛那你在旁邊嘛不是 我就解釋過這是口誤我就解釋過這是口誤"},{"start":462.028,"end":477.718,"text":"口誤這什麼是口誤呢我們剛剛講依法依公文都可以做的事情為什麼要口誤嘉義縣市爭取這條輕軌已經爭取那麼久了啊怎麼會是口誤呢而且你只要照那一天的你去承擔你那天講說爭取是用地費那用地費我們就我們來付啊"},{"start":482.83,"end":484.591,"text":"交通部的2020版的這個運輸政策白皮書就先是說完整城市的這個網際的這個鐵路的運輸網啊"},{"start":503.445,"end":531.102,"text":"要把高鐵跟台鐵做一個串聯是國家的重要政策之一啊你們要去落實這個事情啊大眾決議法第13條也明確說大眾決議系統應該是由中央主管機關來辦理啊所以你本來要依法你就可以這樣做啊現在事情怎麼樣你把我們嘉義漏掉嘛是不是這樣我知道法令上你們一直在鑽漏洞在解釋一個不見得你明明是可以照顧嘉義縣市全國性"},{"start":532.385,"end":541.351,"text":"統一的原則跟規則我不可能為了嘉義市跟別的地方不一樣全國性統一的規則跟原則就是交通部必須那個是為了桃園機場如果每一個縣市都這麼說交通部該怎麼做"},{"start":554.008,"end":580.892,"text":"那你讓他如果你認為整個地區的發展都需要你就應該去做啊為什麼不能做呢那您可以修法啊法律已經有啦現在是你自己的用裁量方式啊你不要擴大去解釋你在依法可以的狀況之下你要照顧嘉義縣市結果你不照顧嘛國家的重要政策也是嘉義市跟嘉義縣的人家生氣什麼你可以做的還有你行政院長公開講的你現在要吃我玩我嗎全國一致性原則我們就欺負我們嘛"},{"start":581.492,"end":603.042,"text":"全國一致性原則我還是要強調全國一致性原則我不要 我知道時間不要影響到後面啦我告訴你第一 嘉義人會爭取到底我們不會被欺負也不會被欺騙啦從來沒有欺負過嘉義人這個都是你可以做的事情那嘉義市民已經在慶祝了落實行政院長講的話我今天更指出來你保證那天站在旁邊"},{"start":605.41,"end":613.643,"text":"你們的對線你們的諾言要對線不要背信不要欺負不要欺騙嘉義人謝謝絕對不會欺負跟欺騙嘉義人謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":351,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時58分）請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，行政院怎麼可以說話不算話，出爾反爾，欺負、欺騙我們嘉義人？前天行政院長總質詢，我看答詢的時候，你也站在旁邊，你們兩個很清楚地表達，嘉義爭取多年的輕軌工程費372億，中央是要承擔的，我們嘉義市政府跟嘉義縣都已經在慶祝了，你怎麼可以把話又收回去呢？你看不起我們嘉義人嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，絕對不會看不起嘉義人。"],["張委員啓楷：那天不是只有行政院長卓榮泰明確對大家宣布，我看你就站在旁邊，對不對？那表示該做了啊！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：我們爭取這麼久，你們也明確宣布了啊！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我昨天也很明確地說明了，當時我……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我先給你看看當天質詢的狀況，你看，你就站在旁邊喔！","（播放影片）"],["張委員啓楷：部長，院長清清楚楚地講了，你是交通部長，你還站在旁邊，這句話不是只有嘉義市人看到，是全國人民都有看到，怎麼可以再縮回去呢？可以反悔嗎？這是公開的……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，不是反悔啦……"],["張委員啓楷：公開地打自己的嘴巴。第二個更重要……"],["陳部長世凱：這個當時我們已經很清楚地說明……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我問你更重要的，院長說真正的癥結卡在哪裡？卡在用地，嘉義縣跟嘉義市政府都講了，願意承擔這個費用，一個0.66億、一個0.94億，我們都願意承擔，問題不就解決了！更重要的是，你是臺中人嘛！臺中的捷運綠線是什麼人出錢的？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，地方出比較多，中央出比較少。"],["張委員啓楷：你看看喔！我統計給你看，所有高鐵聯外道路，不管是鐵路或是後來的捷運，都是中央出的錢，你怎麼會漏掉嘉義縣市呢？難道嘉義縣市比較「細漢」？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，臺鐵當然是中央，但如果是輕軌跟捷運系統，都是中央支持地方興辦。"],["張委員啓楷：機捷是不是捷運？"],["陳部長世凱：機捷除外，機捷是為了機場，其他像臺中……"],["張委員啓楷：機捷為什麼要除外？因為它是重大工程，對不對？為什麼嘉義比較「細漢」，嘉義也是重大工程啊！"],["陳部長世凱：因為那是國家門戶。"],["張委員啓楷：國家門戶？那嘉義縣市都不重要嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：嘉義縣市很重要，所以中央會支持啊！"],["張委員啓楷：很重要，那你就要落實，為什麼獨漏我們？我們有比較「細漢」嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：沒有漏，委員，您剛剛所提到的臺中綠線，地方出的錢也比中央更多啊！是吧？然後臺北的捷運，臺北的捷運串接到臺北火車站，也串接高鐵站，但捷運系統也是地方出比較多錢，這是全國都一致的。"],["張委員啓楷：單純是地方的，像嘉義市也有規劃以後有幾條輕軌，對不對？那個部分我們自己付，但現在是橫跨嘉義縣市，而且是國家重要的工程，就應該比照機捷來做。我再給你看一個……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，臺北的捷運也有跨縣市，不是嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：當然也是跨縣市，部長，等一下，我說是比照機捷來做。第二個，我給你看一個94年的公文，我先問你，嘉義輕軌還沒做，現在是BRT，對不對？當初BRT的錢誰出的、誰去建的？交通部嘛！難道是縣政府、市政府做的嗎？是交通部嘛！對不對？BRT當初就是中央、交通部做的，現在輕軌當然也是交通部做，來！看一下公文。"],["陳部長世凱：所以當時已經做了BRT啊！"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！BRT裡面……"],["陳部長世凱：當時聯外的設計就是BRT啊！"],["張委員啓楷：來！部長請看公文。當初先做BRT，是交通部做的，對不對？行政院94年核定，做了一個很重要的宣示，你看文字，「原有規劃輕軌捷運之議，考量政府財政狀況及運量需求」，當初人比較少，現在運量增加了，太保站那邊下來的人比南港站的人還多，所以它的流量是夠的，對不對？有需求了嘛！後面這句話：「請貴部」，貴部是什麼？是交通部，對不對？「請貴部參考本路廊運量之成長情形，再適時提出輕軌計畫。」這就是叫你們做嘛！第一個，你們現在提了沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，你有沒有做？"],["陳部長世凱：我可以說明嗎？報告委員，您大概不了解，對行政院來說，各縣市的捷運系統都是由交通部提出，各縣市送到交通部，交通部再提出，但交通部提出不代表交通部全部出錢，這一點非常清楚，各縣市的輕軌或捷運都是一致性的，所以不要只看到這句話就擴大解釋……"],["張委員啓楷：我們嘉義縣市也開了好幾次會，包括學者專家，我們都有邀請，現在有兩個點，第一，公文上清清楚楚要你繼續像BRT那樣做，對不對？這是第一點……"],["陳部長世凱：委員，不要擴大解釋。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有、沒有，你剛剛講的那個都是後話……"],["陳部長世凱：不是後話……"],["張委員啓楷：本來有在討論要不要……現在就是兩個點，第一個，我公文都給你看了……"],["陳部長世凱：我也跟你解釋公文……"],["張委員啓楷：依據公文你要做啊！"],["陳部長世凱：對行政院來說，所有的交通跟……"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，當初BRT是交通部做的，當初行政院也叫你要做，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：它沒有叫我們要做。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！這是第一個，第二個，我剛剛講的，為什麼不能夠比照機場捷運？你是比較看不起我們嘉義嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：機場捷運是因為桃園機場是國門。"],["張委員啓楷：然後第三個更重要，部長，現在更重要的是，為什麼行政院長……"],["陳部長世凱：如果您這樣說的話，我是不是也看不起我們自己臺中人？"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！你也可以爭取啊！當然你要爭取啊！是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：已經蓋完了啊！"],["張委員啓楷：你看素月主席已經站起來了，他們彰化也是彰化的立委幫他們爭取啊！為什麼……"],["陳部長世凱：全國都是一致性的。"],["張委員啓楷：來啦！部長，現在是最重要的……"],["陳部長世凱：全國都是一致性的。"],["張委員啓楷：部長、部長，現在最重要的是，行政院長清清楚楚在國會跟大家講，372億你們要出，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我已經解釋過了，那是幕僚所提供的資料讓院長誤解了，這一點我非常抱歉，我昨天道歉過一次，今天再道歉一次。"],["張委員啓楷：嘉義人不要你誤解，嘉義人要你解決問題，行政院長宣布，當初你……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：當初有問題，那天你就應該阻止他這樣講，對不對？結果你站在旁邊……"],["陳部長世凱：高雄左營站所串接的捷運，也是中央補助，地方出比較多的錢，都是一樣。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你都挑那一部分，你為什麼不挑像機捷這樣好的……"],["陳部長世凱：不是，您剛剛一開始不是說……"],["張委員啓楷：明明就可以幫嘉義縣市發展，為什麼不做？"],["陳部長世凱：您剛剛開始不是說各縣市的捷運只要串接高鐵，都是中央出錢，但其實並不是這樣，這是錯誤的說法，你可以回到剛剛那一頁。"],["張委員啓楷：來！部長，現在最新的、最重要的，就是行政院長公開講了，而你就在旁邊嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：不是，我就解釋過這是口誤。"],["張委員啓楷：啊？"],["陳部長世凱：我就解釋過這是口誤。"],["張委員啓楷：口誤？這怎麼是口誤呢？我們剛剛講……"],["陳部長世凱：就是院長誤解了資料，這點我非常抱歉！"],["張委員啓楷：依法、依公文都可以做的事情，為什麼是口誤？嘉義縣市爭取這條輕軌已經爭取那麼久了，怎麼會是口誤呢？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，輕軌跟捷運興建有一定的法規限制。"],["張委員啓楷：而且你只要照那一天的說法，去承擔……"],["陳部長世凱：一切照法規來……"],["張委員啓楷：他那天講說癥結是用地費，那用地費我們來付啊！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，一切照法規來，依法辦理、依法行政。"],["張委員啓楷：我今天給你看的就是法規，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：哪一個法規？"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛講的是公文，講的是其他的……"],["陳部長世凱：公文我也跟你解釋過，你還是沒有理解。"],["張委員啓楷：我們再來談一個比較重要的，交通部「2020年版運輸政策白皮書」已明示建立完整城際鐵路運輸網，將高鐵跟臺鐵做一個串聯，這是國家重要政策之一，你們要去落實。大眾捷運法第十三條也明確指出，大眾捷運系統建設應由中央主管機關辦理。所以依法你們本來就可以這樣做，現在是你把我們嘉義漏掉了，是不是這樣？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個是有待處理的……"],["張委員啓楷：我知道法令上你們一直在鑽漏洞，在解釋一個對……"],["陳部長世凱：沒有、沒有在鑽漏洞。"],["張委員啓楷：你明明可以照顧嘉義縣市。"],["陳部長世凱：委員，全國性統一的原則跟規則，我不可能為了嘉義市跟別的地方不一樣，全國性統一的規則跟原則是交通部必須……"],["張委員啓楷：桃園機捷你就可以照顧，但嘉義不能照顧，你是怎樣？"],["陳部長世凱：那是為了桃園機場……"],["張委員啓楷：你剛才說的，那是國家門面，沒有錯，我們這邊也很重要啊！好啦！我們嘉義人會爭到底！"],["陳部長世凱：如果每一個縣市……"],["張委員啓楷：主席又站起來了。"],["陳部長世凱：如果每個縣市都這麼說，交通部該怎麼做？"],["張委員啓楷：如果你認為整個地區的發展都需要，就應該去做，為什麼不能做呢？是不是這樣？"],["陳部長世凱：那您可以修法，讓全國的捷運全部給中央做。"],["張委員啓楷：法令已經有了，現在是你自己用裁量方式……"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得你不要擴大去解釋……"],["張委員啓楷：現在在依法可以的狀況之下，你要照顧嘉義縣市，結果你不照顧，這是現在的癥結嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：國家的重要政策，也是中央跟地方一起處理。"],["張委員啓楷：嘉義市跟嘉義縣的人在生氣什麼？明明你可以做的，行政院長還公開講，結果你現在要吃我、玩我嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：全國一致性原則。"],["張委員啓楷：你是欺騙我們，又欺負我們嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：全國一致性原則，我還是要強調，全國一致性原則。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，主席已經站起來了，我知道時間到了，不要影響後面的委員，不過我還是要跟你說，第一，嘉義人會爭取到底，我們不會被欺負，也不會被欺騙……"],["陳部長世凱：從來沒有欺負過嘉義人。"],["張委員啓楷：第二，剛才說的，法律上都是你可以做的事情，嘉義市民已經在慶祝了，你要落實行政院長講的話，我今天要特別指出來，部長那天就站在院長旁邊，你們的諾言要兌現，不要背信，不要欺負、不要欺騙嘉義人，謝謝！"],["陳部長世凱：絕對不會欺負跟欺騙嘉義人，謝謝委員。"],["主席（陳委員素月代）：好，謝謝張啓楷委員的質詢。","接下來請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":162,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-10","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","張啓楷","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","林俊憲","陳雪生","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","黃捷","林國成","林月琴","張雅琳","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","涂權吉","蘇清泉","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":9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稍微請一下陳部長 還有陳文睿局長 黃英貴市長 陳部長 陳局長 黃市長 還有陳市長"},{"start":12.691,"end":33.84,"text":"部長好 交通部在今年的二月有提出道安三件那最主要是擴大行人穿越線以及車輛停止線的進去還有要改善入口的這個行人穿越道的相關的一個照明那還有推動汽車隔熱紙透光率的管理升級"},{"start":36.542,"end":62.76,"text":"剛剛聽相關的官員報告那我們看到除了擴大行人穿越線以及車輛停止線的進去有初步的規劃之外以及相關的時程那改善路口行人穿越道的這個照明好像是在規劃當中而已還有推動汽車隔熱紙的透光率它的管理升級的部分好像只是在對話的階段看起來這道安三件"},{"start":63.581,"end":89.394,"text":"好像只是在跨板而已只是在跨大餅而已還沒有真的看到建來 部長說明一下你們大安山間具體的時程是怎樣報告委員您剛剛說的行人穿越道的部分我們在6月底之前會完成修法並且有發布這個部分是有確定的時程那另外入口的這個照明的部分我們省道優先來做改善"},{"start":90.014,"end":115.254,"text":"我們希望在第三季之前完成100處的省道的路口的這個照明改善年底之前完成400處那目前我們已經完成13處所以照明的部分我們自己省道先做不過我們也跟地方政府有在開會在研討如果他們路口需要改善我們跟內政部都會一起來協助他們需要補助的話我們也會協助他們不過有些路口確實是地方政府他們要去協助的這個跟委員報告"},{"start":117.093,"end":143.116,"text":"那另外針對隔熱紙的透光率的部分我們在6月份就會有一個指引出來這個指引就是告訴大家說我前檔未來隔熱紙能夠貼百分之幾的透光率跟側檔的部分要貼多少的隔熱紙的這個透光率這個部分指引我們6月就會很確定會出來那明年也就是115年我們會來落實法制化法制化之後就會強制要求大家一定要這麼做"},{"start":143.757,"end":161.938,"text":"好 具體的時程必須要讓社會大眾能夠清楚知道大灣三線相關的規劃以及計畫的時程那我們針對一造勢路段的這一些道路改善的相關的作為那我初步的建議就是我們要逐年來盤點各縣市的造勢熱點"},{"start":165.361,"end":183.433,"text":"來進行優先的一個改善另外針對現有的這些道安的問題要進行風險因素相關的統計跟分析而且我們針對有些縣市做得比較好的我們要找出它有效的改善作為來納入改善的範本部長簡單說明一下"},{"start":184.754,"end":210.721,"text":"報告委員我們目前的路口改善優先確實是以委員所指示的就是用熱點就是依照式的路口我們優先來改善那過去一年其實我們也完成了許多的路口的這個改善那未來還是朝這個方向這個沒有問題一定會照做那另外比較有成果的縣市我們其實在道安的總動員的平台都有揭露出來然後我們也會去了解說他到底為什麼會做得特別好"},{"start":211.822,"end":230.376,"text":"因為我們針對一照四路段我們必須要初步的一個檢視然後來督促地方政府來做改善如果他沒有改善的這些項目要列入改善的一個目標更重要我們要滾動檢討這些改善的項目以及他相關的成效"},{"start":231.417,"end":253.159,"text":"部長我們繼續來討論剛才也有相關的報告提到說我們以2024年跟2023年的死傷人數來做一個統計那總死亡的人數是減少了2.4這是部長剛才有報告但是死亡的人數雖然是略有下降但是"},{"start":253.86,"end":276.562,"text":"部分的死亡案件是增加的那包含青年的死亡13到17歲還有大型車事故導致死亡以及大型車導致行人死亡的部分還有追撞事故還有營業小客車這些導致死亡的案件它其實是增加的受傷的人數總受傷人數"},{"start":277.302,"end":295.711,"text":"雖然2024跟2023年來比較減少了2.8但是相關的高齡者以及高齡者機車歧視高齡者入口事故的受傷還有少年自行車的受傷人數都是增加的這個部分我們來看其實有個擔憂就是說長期的趨勢來看"},{"start":301.233,"end":326.455,"text":"兒童跟少年還有自行車高齡者的入口路段其次事故的受傷人數是增加而且大型車造成死亡事故造成死亡也是增加的就是說我們來看交通安全好像在這三面是一個很嚴重的趨勢就是說兒童還有高齡者的入口的事故"},{"start":327.436,"end":342.443,"text":"還有電動自行車尤其是青少年的電動自行車所造成的事故另外就是部分的大型車還有營業的車輛他駕駛習慣不良所導致的一個事故"},{"start":344.308,"end":369.969,"text":"來部長這個部分讓你簡單說明一下我們針對這個趨勢有沒有初步的作為跟政策包偉勇我們針對異造式或者是說高風險的族群我們其實部裡面也都有在做研究看要怎麼樣去做一些改善包含高齡者我們剛剛在簡報裡面有提到除了陸老師的這個道安的教育之外就是包含他的那個棒球帽反光的棒球帽等等的提供我們會盡量來協助"},{"start":371.61,"end":388.394,"text":"那青少年的部分確實我們在這幾年有觀察到電動自行車的事故有特別多那這個部分我們未來也會研議看要怎麼樣去做一個宣導或者是做一個管制那大型車的部分其實我們針對高違規的這個駕駛人我們有個專案的調訓也就是說把它調回來再重新訓練那這個過程我們從112年一直到現在已經累計有調訓了1220名的駕駛人"},{"start":399.756,"end":409.86,"text":"那我們調訊完之後我們發現比較不會再違規的比例有百分之八十幾也就是說這樣子的調訊確實是有效果那未來我們還會再加強就是說針對這個大型的車輛"},{"start":412.714,"end":440.377,"text":"如果未禮讓行人造成死亡的話我們除了調訓駕駛人之外公司的管理人或者負責人也必須要調訓部長我們有幾個數據其實是很嚴肅也讓我們非常擔憂我們來看路口的事故不管是闖紅燈或是未使用方向燈或者是沒有停讓這樣的案件其實也是持續的增加警政署的報告路口事故的主要肇事人"},{"start":442.579,"end":470.113,"text":"98%都是駕駛人那主要原因就是闖紅燈還有衛衣規定使用方向燈它的件數都非常的多那這個部分有沒有具體的改善的一個方案報告委員這個部分當然也要拜託警政署在執法面盡量讓我們的駕駛人要有所警惕那當然宣導面的部分交通部會來努力這個相關都要更具體的政策對話出來不是只有"},{"start":470.613,"end":487.787,"text":"希望警政署能夠加強執法而已我們針對相關的這些路口的相關以及依照式路段路口相關的這些改善的具體措施耗制等等都必須更明確的讓駕駛人能夠遵守另外"},{"start":488.487,"end":508.419,"text":"我們大型車的事故也是非常的多那當然是部分的駕駛他的駕駛習慣不良不好導致死傷者的事故也是持續的增加不管是大型車事故導致死亡或大型車導致行人死亡那2024年警政署的統計"},{"start":509.56,"end":520.611,"text":"大型車的事故高達22萬1482件造成的傷亡不管是大車大貨車連結車造成的傷亡都是增加的這是一個讓我們很擔憂的這樣一個趨勢那"},{"start":526.696,"end":544.044,"text":"針對駕駛這種行為啊他的這種不良違規人進行駕駛行為的改善訓練是一個很重要的啦那當然我們要強化改善駕駛習慣這個宣導這個宣導是非常重要另外在教育方面我們有大安講習的這些班別"},{"start":544.744,"end":563.113,"text":"那目前大概有六個班別那我們針對危險駕駛的行為這種違規是不是要開設危險駕駛行為的相關的講習課程或是在現有的班別中也把這種危險駕駛列入相關的課程來說明一下"},{"start":570.051,"end":590.604,"text":"講習的這個部分有需要的話其實講習專班沒有問題那一般來說其實對於這種大型車輛的這個高風險我們都會去看他的違規比如說超速啦闖紅燈這些我們都特別調訓所以那個不是在講習那個在一般的這個業者的調訓包括駕駛人跟這個公司老闆其實這個部分我們都會來這個加強"},{"start":592.216,"end":607.235,"text":"你有加強但是他還是明顯的違規這個部分我們必須要加強相關的教育跟宣導另外最後一分鐘啊這個很好用最後一分鐘交通改善其實看到各縣市落差非常的大"},{"start":607.856,"end":635.061,"text":"那交通部應該要加強督促那有些啊這些改善成效不彰的縣市要怎麼去督促還有交通部有沒有更具體的方式去協助這些地方政府找出相關的原因協助地方政府來做改善有些縣市有改善的成績有出來但是有些縣市我也不點名那其實這些交通部如何去督促這些地方縣市政府"},{"start":636.389,"end":660.571,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們除了會跟他們開會之外我們在那個道安的那個匯報裡面也會請他們來說明跟報告他們未來要改善的這個計畫是什麼那我們當然技術面協助那如果入口改善需要經費我們也會協助那也會給他們一些壓力有些縣市做得不錯他改善的項目以及成效也可以列入這些改善的範本"},{"start":661.453,"end":668.758,"text":"讓各個縣市來可以做交流可以做對話如果提升相關的交通安全是 我請他們來分享好 以上謝謝 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":317,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時46分）謝謝召委，請陳部長、陳文瑞局長、黃運貴司長、林福山司長。"],["主席：請陳部長、陳局長、黃司長、林司長。"],["李委員昆澤：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：交通部在今年2月有提出道安三箭，最主要是擴大行人穿越線與車輛停止線的淨距、改善路口行人穿越道照明，以及推動汽車隔熱紙透光率的管理升級。剛剛聽到相關官員報告，我們看到除了擴大行人穿越線與車輛停止線的淨距有初步的規劃以及相關的時程之外，在改善路口行人穿越道照明部分好像還在規劃當中而已，至於推動汽車隔熱紙透光率管理升級的部分，也好像只是在對話的階段，看起來這道安三箭好像只是在畫靶而已、只是在畫大餅而已，還沒有真的看到箭耶！請部長說明一下，你們道安三箭的具體時程是怎樣？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您剛剛說的行人穿越道的部分，我們在6月底之前會完成修法並且發布，這個部分是有確定的時程。另外，路口照明的部分，我們會從省道優先來做改善，我們希望在第三季之前完成100處省道路口的照明改善，年底之前完成400處，目前我們已經完成13處，所以照明的部分，我們自己省道先做。不過我們也跟地方政府有在開會研討，如果他們的路口需要改善，我們跟內政部都會一起來協助他們，需要補助的話，我們也會協助他們，不過有些路口確實是地方政府要去協助的，這個跟委員報告。","另外，針對隔熱紙透光率的部分，我們在6月份就會有一個指引出來，這個指引就是告訴大家，前擋未來能夠貼百分之幾透光率的隔熱紙，側擋的部分要貼百分之幾透光率的隔熱紙，這個部分的指引我們6月也很確定會提出來，明年也就是115年，我們會落實法制化，法制化之後就會強制要求大家一定要這麼做。"],["李委員昆澤：好，必須要讓社會大眾能夠清楚知道道安三箭相關的規劃及計畫具體的時程。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員昆澤：針對易肇事路段的道路改善相關作為，我初步的建議是，我們要逐年盤點各縣市的肇事熱點優先改善。另外，針對現有的道安問題，要進行風險因素相關的統計跟分析，而且針對有些縣市做得比較好的，我們要找出它有效的改善作為，納入改善的範本。部長簡單說明一下。"],["陳部長世凱：好，報告委員，我們目前的路口改善優先確實是以委員所指示的，就是用熱點、易肇事的路口，我們優先改善，過去一年其實我們也完成了許多路口的改善，未來還是朝這個方向，這個沒有問題，一定會照做。另外，比較有成果的縣市，我們其實在道安總動員的平臺都有揭露出來，我們也會去了解它到底為什麼會做得特別好，我們跟地方縣市政府開會……"],["李委員昆澤：對，針對易肇事路段，我們必須要初步檢視，然後督促地方政府改善，如果它沒有改善的項目，要列入改善的目標，更重要的是，我們要滾動檢討這些改善項目及相關的成效。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員昆澤：部長，我們繼續來討論，剛才也有相關的報告提到以2024年跟2023年的死傷人數統計，總死亡的人數減少了2.4%，這是部長剛才有報告的，而死亡的人數雖然是略有下降，但是部分的死亡案件是增加的，包含13到17歲青年的死亡，還有大型車事故導致死亡以及大型車導致行人死亡的部分，還有追撞事故，還有營業小客車，這些導致死亡的案件其實是增加的。至於受傷的人數，雖然2024年跟2023年來比較，總受傷人數減少了2.8%，但是相關的高齡者受傷人數及高齡者機車騎士受傷人數、高齡者路口事故受傷人數，還有少年自行車的受傷人數都是增加的。","我們來看這個部分，其實有個擔憂，以長期的趨勢來看，兒童跟少年自行車、高齡者的路口路段事故，以及騎士事故的受傷人數是增加的，而且大型車事故造成死亡也是增加的。我們來看交通安全好像在這上面是一個很嚴重的趨勢，就是兒童還有高齡者路口的事故，還有電動自行車，尤其是青少年的電動自行車所造成的事故，另外就是部分的大型車還有營業車輛駕駛習慣不良所導致的事故。部長，這個部分讓你簡單說明一下，針對這個趨勢，你們有沒有初步的作為跟政策？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，針對易肇事或者是高風險的族群，其實部裡面也都有在研究，看要怎麼樣去做一些改善。包含高齡者，我們剛才在簡報裡面也有提到，除了路老師的道安教育之外，包含他的棒球帽、反光的棒球帽等等的提供，我們會儘量協助。至於青少年的部分。確實我們在這幾年有觀察到電動自行車的事故有特別多，關於這個部分，我們未來也會研議看要怎麼樣宣導或者是管制。有關大型車的部分，其實我們針對高違規的駕駛人有個專案的調訓，也就是把他調回來再重新訓練，這個過程從112年一直到現在，已經累計調訓了1,220名駕駛人。我們調訓完之後，發現比較不會再違規的比例有百分之八十幾，也就是這樣子的調訓確實是有效果，未來我們還會再加強。針對大型的車輛如果未禮讓行人造成死亡的話，我們除了調訓駕駛人之外，公司的管理人或者負責人也必須要調訓。"],["李委員昆澤：部長，我們有幾個數據其實是很嚴肅的，也讓我們非常擔憂，我們來看路口的事故，不管是闖紅燈，或者是未使用方向燈，或者是沒有停讓，這樣的案件其實也是持續增加。警政署的報告顯示路口事故的主要肇事人，98%都是駕駛人，主要原因就是闖紅燈，還有未依規定使用方向燈，件數都非常多，這個部分有沒有具體改善的方案？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分當然也要拜託警政署在執法面儘量讓我們的駕駛人有所警惕，當然宣導面的部分，交通部會努力。"],["李委員昆澤：這個相關的都要有更具體的政策對話出來，不是只有希望警政署能夠加強執法而已，我們針對路口相關以及易肇事路段路口相關的改善具體措施、號誌等等，都必須更明確地讓駕駛人能夠遵守。另外，我們大型車的事故也非常多，當然是部分駕駛的駕駛習慣不良、不好，導致死傷者的事故也是持續增加，不管是大型車事故導致死亡或大型車導致行人死亡。2024年警政署也統計，大型車的事故高達22萬1,482件，不管是大客車、大貨車、連結車造成的傷亡都是增加的，這是一個讓我們很擔憂的趨勢。針對駕駛這種不良違規人進行駕駛行為的改善訓練是很重要的，當然我們要強化改善駕駛習慣的宣導，這個宣導非常重要。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["李委員昆澤：另外，在教育方面，我們有道安講習的班別，目前大概有六個班別，針對危險駕駛的行為這種違規，是不是要開設危險駕駛行為相關的講習課程，或是在現有的班別中，也把這種危險駕駛列入相關的課程？請說明一下。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我是不是可以請……"],["李委員昆澤：好，請局長。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，講習這個部分有需要的話，其實講習專班沒有問題，一般來說，其實對於這種大型車輛的高風險，我們都會去看他的違規，比如超速、闖紅燈，這些我們都特別調訓，所以那個不是在講習，那個在一般業者的調訓，包括駕駛人跟公司老闆，其實這個部分，我們都會加強。"],["李委員昆澤：你有加強，但是他還是明顯的違規，針對這個部分，我們必須要加強相關的教育跟宣導。"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["李委員昆澤：另外，最後1分鐘，針對交通改善，其實看到各縣市落差非常大，交通部應該要加強督促，有些改善成效不彰的縣市，要怎麼去督促，還有交通部有沒有更具體的方式，去協助這些地方政府找出相關的原因，協助地方政府來改善？有些縣市改善的成績有出來，但是有些縣市我也不點名，交通部如何去督促這些地方縣市政府？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個部分，我們除了會跟他們開會之外，在道安會報裡面也會請他們來說明跟報告他們未來改善的計畫是什麼。當然技術面，我們會協助，如果入口改善需要經費，我們也會協助，也會給他們一些壓力，如果做得不好，我們請他們來報告。"],["李委員昆澤：有些縣市做得不錯，它改善的項目及成效也可以列入這些改善的範本，讓各個縣市可以交流、可以對話，以提升相關的交通安全。"],["陳部長世凱：是，我會請他們來分享。"],["李委員昆澤：好，以上。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們請張啓楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":162,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-10","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","張啓楷","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","林俊憲","陳雪生","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","黃捷","林國成","林月琴","張雅琳","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","涂權吉","蘇清泉","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部及教育部就「人本交通」及「交通安全」施行狀況進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計\n2案","agenda_id":"1144701_00003"}}},{"id":"161089","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161089","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1e73b3870cf0cbe4aebbe9609d4ca098397e39277836b040f96ef8369fd87006b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:33:49 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我想請教一下自由時報今天有一個頭版頭 我覺得很不錯交通部說早推綠燈5秒到10秒的這個號誌是 非常好"},{"start":267.338,"end":280.818,"text":"兩個部分行人專用實項跟行人早開事項的一個部分那現在我們有沒有比較具體的規劃因為我看了裡面是講是說縣市有獎勵跟補助喔對好 那補助的一個金額跟規模"},{"start":284.082,"end":298.496,"text":"我們有分三組直轄市是一組那非直轄市的部分有一千個路口有號誌的路口一千個以上跟一千個以下分兩組所以我們總共有三組前兩名的部分就是推動前兩名的部分我們會有一些補助的獎勵"},{"start":300.117,"end":322.845,"text":"多少錢啊我現在看到有十五萬十萬十五萬你總共那是獎勵的金額來部長所以說總共在這個計畫裡面你直轄市兩名一個第一名十五萬第二名十萬縣轄市是非直轄市是十萬五萬所以你總共花四十萬元那真的是很"},{"start":324.138,"end":347.768,"text":"很偉大的政策喔 本席必須說喔如果說 因為本席我先講我的態度喔 我是認同的因為行人如果說綠燈能夠找5秒到10秒的話行人先行 因為有很多車輛車要右轉右轉你就會卡到 如果說行人能夠先站上斑馬線要過馬路的時候 他就可以先通過那未來很多的行人也有提很多的駕駛也有提出來 是說當"},{"start":350.457,"end":370.863,"text":"這個綠燈的時候這個行人號字能夠也先變成紅燈讓最後有5到10秒時間駕駛也可以來右轉對不對就不要車人相爭道嘛好那這個做法我支持啊那可是你現在只有提出來說獎勵的部分就是前個前兩名的縣市一個15萬一個10萬"},{"start":372.763,"end":386.897,"text":"報告委員路口的建置如果需要經費其實內政部跟交通部都有另外的補助方案這個只是針對說如果你可以增加的數字多的話我們給他一個獎勵的機制沒有錯我現在講的是說因為你還有提到達成目標有獎勵跟補助嘛是是是"},{"start":393.283,"end":407.968,"text":"那我們現在講說獎勵的部分你是要預計花40萬如果說真的40萬能夠讓所有縣市之前都知道該做這件事情但都沒有做結果現在我們的陳部長只要花40萬的經費就可以達成這樣子的一個"},{"start":409.113,"end":429.362,"text":"目標的話那也是非常了不起的一個成就但另外一個部分另外一個部分你要怎麼樣能夠鼓勵我覺得比較實質的是怎麼樣改善各路口其實本期今天提出來是看到目標很好我想要請教的是你實質怎麼做能夠讓各縣市真的來去做這件事情"},{"start":429.882,"end":458.704,"text":"有沒有跟各縣市交通局開會過有 我們都有跟他們開會然後也有鼓勵他們必須要這麼做也跟委員報告其實我們之後當然還會再要求跟拜託啦因為地方政府要配合我們才有辦法做到那也跟委員報告其實我們在之前目前以行人早開實項跟專用實項目前我們已經完成了六千個入口已經完成了六千個入口過去在沒有獎勵的過程當中已經完成了六千個那未來我們會獎勵我們希望能夠在更多的這個目標可以提出來"},{"start":459.164,"end":484.13,"text":"所以未來希望能夠達到多少目標我們目前是希望能夠推動1700處1765處的樣子在今年年底嗎在今年年底之前好我們來看一下你的執行率那還有更重要的是一定要讓國人更了解這樣子的一個號誌的一個用意以及它真的能夠幫助到行人的安全"},{"start":484.87,"end":511.093,"text":"最後簡單一分鐘我想請教一下因為現在遊覽車要強制加設駕駛的身份設備原本原本是說是今年的年中就要開始實施但去年也有看到有些抗議那其實我們說實在話我想你們一定要很清楚部長也好司長也好都很清楚現在遊覽車很多的駕駛他其實靠航比較多所以他自己要負擔那台車的成本"},{"start":511.613,"end":538.86,"text":"那如果說又再加上的話其實車行是不會去理會的所以變成是說那個價值要自己來增加那現在看到我們的這一個政策可能是要明年一月元旦上路明年一月一號上路我們有沒有相關的配套報告委員這個經費的部分公路局也會提供補助啦就是說有一些是靠行的他自己要負擔那這個部分我們會盡量去補助他讓他的負擔可以減少辦法咧公路局是不是有提供相關的辦法"},{"start":540.029,"end":568.06,"text":"到目前為止還沒有看到 不能今年四月的時候再講一次但是我們現在看的比較直接的就是說到目前為止你們要怎麼做能夠讓明年一月上路之後真的符合 因為我想安全最重要駕駛如果安全的話大家都很期待但駕駛一定會講是說那這樣子的成本到最後車行也不理然後結果交通部一個命令下來是要駕駛自行汽車跟負擔而且不只是裝一次費用喔每個月還要管理費用 來"},{"start":569.175,"end":585.049,"text":"跟這個部分跟委員報告一下先行遊覽車已經有GPS的所以車輛的動態系統已經重回來那現在只是加一個駕駛人識別的部分那駕駛人識別的部分有幾種方式一種是這個插生命識別卡我們可不可以直接說明剛剛部長已經講說你們不是已經研擬辦法了嗎對對對對阿所以這個"},{"start":588.832,"end":616.682,"text":"公共總局已經有一個補助這個規定在做這個補助所以因為之前都已經在做補助本來是這個今年7月1號要這個推那後面再調整這個時程到明年1月1號那裡面還包括就是說更大的比如說你除了裝身分識別這個卡之外那另外如果用手機QR code也可以結合這個GPS把家屬的訊息傳回來"},{"start":618.002,"end":645.258,"text":"這個都在可以處理的一個範圍重點是要掌握一萬四千多全國的遊覽車如果說真的有些時候禮拜禮拜天出遊旺季的時候他可能在各地那我們可以了解他的狀況那還有更重要的是駕駛員不要有這種超時工作然後疲勞駕駛的部分嘛這個都是利益良善但我現在講的還是一樣回歸到你的"},{"start":646.598,"end":674.826,"text":"裝設的機器如果變成是說駕駛要再來負擔那無形當中增加成本那會不會就是有上有政策下有對策你沒有辦法落實這可能我們美意就會打折跟我們報告兩個重點第一個部分已經有補助的規定那第二個部分的話裝完之後在車輛驗車的時候都會去看這些相關設備有全額補助嗎補助應該是一半百分之四十九百分之四十九 五十一嘛我覺得還是要"},{"start":675.586,"end":688.898,"text":"部長再了解一下現在的裝機率以及本席提醒現在裝機率以及你只剩半年左右時間如果明年元旦要上路能夠落實還有我之前有提過這一樣的牽連"},{"start":691.941,"end":719.389,"text":"國道客運上面能夠有雙層巴士之前部長也承諾會研議那我知道市長也已經開過會其實我最主要強調的還是一樣讓駕駛員能夠有多增加收入以及客一台車裡面能夠多增加的一個載客量讓整個交通空污也好可以下降以及交通的這個衝擊也可以比較縮小那現在我知道3月已經開過會了那現在的推動情形咧"},{"start":720.406,"end":749.035,"text":"跟委員報告三月開完會之後車身規格已經完成草案的研擬那接下來就要做法規的預告所以各單位大家回覆是往正向的看待是用麥克風好不好是包括這個路權還有車輛規格大家都已經討論定案了都有共識了我們希望也是一起落實如果可以的話在今年年底以前能夠真的讓這樣的一個政策能夠上路可以嗎可以好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":204,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時33分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請陳世凱部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席注意到禮拜二的質詢，禮拜三嘉義市政府也先開了記者會，說這是最好的母親節禮物，但是沒想到不到半天的時間，交通部又出來開記者會說院長是口誤。院長當時備詢的時候，你有沒有在旁邊？"],["陳部長世凱：我在旁邊。"],["洪委員孟楷：你在旁邊，如果院長口誤，部長了解的話，從頭到尾在那個質詢裡面有沒有提醒院長說這個是口誤？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，當時因為是在答詢過程的最後幾秒院長這樣子回答。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以有沒有提醒院長說是口誤？沒有？"],["陳部長世凱：當時因為是最後要結束的時候院長說了這句話，所以來不及。"],["洪委員孟楷：有來不及嗎？後面的時間……來，我們看一下，院長其實講的滿長的，院長直接說中央可以負擔372億，院長親口講中央可以負擔372億……"],["陳部長世凱：院長當時所看的資料是看……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒錯嘛！我們現在在問的是你也在旁邊，一個是行政院長，一個是交通部長，兩個人都是我們交通最大的首長，一個是院長、一個是部長，結果在立法院接受總質詢對立法委員詢答的時候，親口說中央可以負擔372億，你也沒有覺得有任何的問題，也沒有提醒院長是講錯了，這是代表你們兩位都狀況外嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：不是，報告委員，不是。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是的話，為什麼會院長講了372億？現在請教部長，院長說要給，交通部是不是不同意？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，當時是口誤……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以讓大家覺得這可能是史上最大的詐騙案，372億的詐騙案！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，各個縣市……"],["洪委員孟楷：不過最快破案，因為不到一天的時間馬上改口。"],["陳部長世凱：各個縣市的交通運輸，尤其是輕軌跟捷運，我們在100年的時候有公布了一個補助跟施作的要點，全國都是一致性的原則，這個不會改變。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，知不知道嘉義輕軌從過去到現在的一個歷史脈絡？"],["陳部長世凱：知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：我想你應該很清楚嘛，因為之前中央就曾經承諾過要全額補助嘛，2022年王國材部長……"],["陳部長世凱：當時沒有這樣的承諾。"],["洪委員孟楷：你回去看資料，如果要再這樣子硬拗的話，就真的是太不好看了！2022年的時候，我們交通委員會也有去嘉義市考察，那個時候王國材部長也有提到，這個是正式的新聞稿，你也可以找到相關資料，王國材部長有講過，現在嘉義市是BRT，但是要轉成輕軌，運量如果有足夠的話，可以來支持，中央可以來支持。"],["陳部長世凱：支持？"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["陳部長世凱：支持是補助的意思。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以到目前為止……"],["陳部長世凱：比如說新北市的輕軌，中央也支持，我們是用補助的方式……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你現在又要反質詢了，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：我沒有反質詢，我是跟委員報告，難道我在這邊不用向委員報告嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：來啦，部長，所以本席想要請教一下，本來以為我們真的可以在交通委員會也好，或是在院會也好，看到建設不分藍綠縣市，只要對的事情，大家能夠支持，所以當院長講到中央能夠負擔372億，不到一天的時間，居然是由交通部出來開記者會澄清，院長要不要為他的口誤來說明跟道歉？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我來道歉，是幕僚提供的資料讓院長誤解了，這個部分我必須道歉，我昨天也道歉過。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以是院長口誤，院長講的話，然後部長來幫忙洗地，好！"],["陳部長世凱：這個我必須要道歉，因為是幕僚單位提供的資料讓院長誤解了，這個我非常抱歉。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們還是期待地方的建設中央能夠更關懷……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，全國性一致……"],["洪委員孟楷：……跟深入了解我們整個地方的發展啦！"],["陳部長世凱：新北的條件跟嘉義的條件都是一樣的，中央支持的模式都是一樣，都是補助……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我只要喊、我只要講，新北也好，嘉義也好……"],["陳部長世凱：都一樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：北、中、南、東，我們都希望中央能夠看到我們各地的需求。"],["陳部長世凱：這個沒問題，都一樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，我想請教一下，自由時報今天有一個頭版頭，我覺得很不錯，交通部說要推早亮綠燈5秒到10秒及設置專用號誌……"],["陳部長世凱：行人早開時相。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，非常好，這有兩個部分，行人專用時相跟行人早開時相的部分，現在我們有沒有比較具體的規劃？因為我看有新聞提到的是縣市有獎勵跟補助，補助的金額跟規模能不能說明一下？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們有分三組，直轄市是一組，非直轄市的部分，我們以1,000個路口來區分，有號誌的路口1,000個以上跟1,000個以下分兩組，所以我們總共有三組，推動前兩名的部分，我們會有一些補助的獎勵。"],["洪委員孟楷：多少錢？我現在看到……"],["陳部長世凱：有10萬，有15萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：10萬、15萬？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：那是獎勵的金額？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，所以在這個計畫裡面，直轄市兩名，第一名15萬，第二名10萬……"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：非直轄市是10萬跟5萬。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你總共花40萬元？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那真的很偉大的政策啊！本席必須說，我先講我的態度，我是認同的，行人的綠燈如果能夠早5秒到10秒的話，行人先行，因為有很多車輛是要右轉，右轉就會卡到，如果行人能夠先站上斑馬線，要過馬路的時候就可以先通過。很多駕駛也有提出來的是，在綠燈要轉為紅燈的時候，行人的號誌也能先變紅燈，最後還有5到10秒時間讓駕駛可以右轉，對不對？就不要車人相爭道嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，這個作法我支持，可是你現在只有提出獎勵的部分，就是各組前兩名的縣市，一個15萬，一個10萬，誘因大嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，路口的建置，如果需要經費，其實內政部跟交通部都有另外的補助方案，這個只是針對如果縣市增加的數字多的話，我們給它一個獎勵的機制。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，沒有錯，我看得很清楚啊……"],["陳部長世凱：當然，在有限的預算裡面，我們希望能夠……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為你還有提到達成目標有獎勵跟補助嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在說的是，獎勵的部分你預計是要花40萬，如果真的40萬能夠讓所有縣市，之前都知道該做這件事情但沒有做，結果現在我們的陳部長只要花40萬的經費就可以達成這樣一個目標的話，那也是非常了不起的一個成就！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這是六都……"],["洪委員孟楷：另外一個部分，你要怎麼樣能夠鼓勵，我覺得比較實質的是怎麼樣改善各路口，其實本席今天提出來的是，看到目標很好，但我想要請教的是你實質怎麼做，能夠讓各縣市真的去做這件事情，有沒有跟各縣市交通局開會過了？"],["陳部長世凱：有，我們都有跟他們開會，然後也有鼓勵他們必須要這麼做。也跟委員報告，其實我們之後當然還會再要求跟拜託啦，因為地方政府要配合，我們才有辦法做到。也跟委員報告，其實以行人早開時相跟專用時相來說，目前我們已經完成了6,000個路口，過去在沒有獎勵的過程當中已經完成了6,000個路口，未來我們會獎勵，希望能夠有更多的目標可以提出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以未來希望能夠達到多少目標？"],["陳部長世凱：我們目前是希望能夠推動1,765處的樣子。"],["洪委員孟楷：在今年年底嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：對，在今年年底之前。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我們來看一下你的執行率，還有更重要的是，一定要讓國人更了解這樣一個號誌的用意，以及這真的能夠幫助到行人的安全。","最後簡單一分鐘，我想請教一下，因為現在遊覽車要強制加設駕駛的身分識別設備，原本是說今年的年中就要開始實施，但去年也看到有些抗議。其實我們說實在話，我想你們應該很清楚，部長也好，司長也好，應該都很清楚，現在很多遊覽車的駕駛其實是靠行的比較多，所以他自己要負擔那一輛車的成本，如果要再加裝相關設備的話，其實車行是不會去理會的，變成那個駕駛要自己來增加設備，現在看到我們這個政策可能是要明年元旦上路……"],["陳部長世凱：對，明年1月1號上路。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們有沒有相關的配套？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，對於相關經費的部分，公路局也會提供補助，就是說，有些是靠行的，他自己要負擔，對於這個部分，我們會儘量去補助他，讓他的負擔可以減少。"],["洪委員孟楷：辦法呢？"],["陳部長世凱：我請司長說明公路局是不是有提供相關的辦法。"],["洪委員孟楷：到目前為止還沒有看到，今年4月的時候有再講一次，但是我們現在看的比較直接的就是說，到目前為止，你們要怎麼做才能在明年1月上路之後能真的符合？因為我想安全最重要，駕駛的安全大家都很期待，但駕駛一定會講說，這樣的成本到最後車行也不理，結果交通部一個命令下來是要駕駛自行吸收跟負擔，而且不只是裝一次的費用，每個月還要管理費用。"],["林司長福山：這個部分跟委員報告一下，現行遊覽車已經有GPS了，所以車輛的動態系統已經傳回來，現在只是加一個駕駛人識別的部分，駕駛人識別的部分有幾種方式，一種是插身分識別卡……"],["洪委員孟楷：可不可以直接說明？剛剛部長已經說你們已經研擬辦法了！"],["林司長福山：對，所以……"],["洪委員孟楷：辦法呢？"],["林司長福山：公路總局已經有一個補助規定在做這個部分的相關補助，因為之前都已經在做補助，本來是今年7月1號要推，後來再調整這個時程到明年1月1號，裡面還包括更大的，除了裝身分識別卡之外，另外如果用手機QR code也可以結合GPS，把駕駛人的訊息傳回來，這個都在可以處理的一個範圍內。"],["洪委員孟楷：重點是要掌握全國一萬四千多輛的遊覽車，如果真的，有時候在禮拜六、禮拜天出遊旺季的時候，他可能在各地，我們可以了解他的狀況，還有更重要的是駕駛員不要有超時工作、疲勞駕駛的部分嘛！"],["林司長福山：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個都是立意良善，但我現在講的還是一樣，回歸到裝設的機器如果變成是由駕駛要來負擔的話，無形當中就會增加成本，那會不會出現上有政策下有對策的情況，造成你沒有辦法去落實，我們的美意就可能會打折。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告兩個重點，第一個部分，已經有補助的規定；第二個部分，裝完之後，在車輛驗車的時候都會去看這些相關設備。"],["洪委員孟楷：有全額補助嗎？"],["林司長福山：補助應該是一半、49%。"],["洪委員孟楷：49%？所以要自負51%嘛，我覺得部長要再了解一下現在的裝機率，本席提醒的是現在的裝機率，因為只剩半年左右的時間，如果明年元旦要上路要能夠落實。"],["陳部長世凱：對，要落實。"],["洪委員孟楷：還有，我之前有提過，是一樣的牽連啦，國道客運上面能夠有雙層巴士，之前部長也承諾會研議，我知道司長也已經開過會，其實我最主要強調的還是一樣，讓駕駛員能夠多增加收入，以及一輛車裡面能夠多增加載客量，讓整個交通的空污可以下降，交通的衝擊也可以比較縮小，我知道3月已經開過會了，現在的推動情形如何？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，3月開完會之後……"],["主席：回答簡短，好不好？"],["林司長福山：車身規格已經完成草案的研擬，接下來就要做法規的預告。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以各單位大家的回復是往正向的看待？"],["林司長福山：是。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：用麥克風回答，好不好？"],["林司長福山：包括路權還有車輛規格，大家都已經討論定案了。"],["洪委員孟楷：都有共識了？"],["林司長福山：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們希望能夠一起落實，如果可以的話，在今年年底以前，能夠真的讓這樣一個政策上路，可以嗎？"],["林司長福山：可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","請李昆澤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":162,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-10","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","張啓楷","黃健豪","徐富癸","蔡其昌","林俊憲","陳雪生","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","鍾佳濱","林宜瑾","黃捷","林國成","林月琴","張雅琳","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","涂權吉","蘇清泉","游顥","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":91,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、內政部及教育部就「人本交通」及「交通安全」施行狀況進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計\n2案","agenda_id":"1144701_00003"}}},{"id":"161088","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161088","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1d8f4d1a3fe232d47cf7df95ebd13a46f97e39277836b040f458456231790284f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"11:23:24 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主席 我們與會同仁 請我們內政部 不用 部長不用我們花俊請請花董事長好 花次還有我們國土署署長吳署長有請好 兩位市長針對我們的都市為老舊建築物"},{"start":28.433,"end":31.714,"text":"的整建,因為這是我們上會期發展前還沒當董事長所以那時候我們要補助這圍爐,圍爐的費用現在我看過全國的超過30年的已經"},{"start":47.139,"end":52.481,"text":"還有存在喔非常的多那尤其雙北就佔了150萬戶那未來呢我們這補助的經費沒有了那未來我們推動可能又會自愛燃省"},{"start":65.511,"end":83.205,"text":"因為危老重建條例的部分因為到116年就落日所以各界其實都希望我們來延長這部分我們已經有在研擬修法的內容就可以來推出第二個就是說我們也會把原來的相關的規模獎勵來做一個延續當然都會經過檢討看看大家實施的狀況我們會來做一個調整"},{"start":90.191,"end":95.916,"text":"那大致上朝向修法延長的部分大概沒有問題,會朝這個方向來進行因為我們台灣是在我們的地層,地層帶上面所以說你超過30年的圍爐這都是急迫性,我們要去推動所以說你在補助的方面"},{"start":111.141,"end":138.251,"text":"要是缺少了那民間投資意願又減少那你這個推動就自愛人性這點是我們中央政府我們要去考量所以在這裡我也要拜託說最近你看說現在我們很多地震包含在我們新北到過去我們的花蓮新北這裡房子已經都不能住了他也要退房單"},{"start":139.787,"end":148.039,"text":"但是你說它還存在台灣存在非常多所以說這個部分也拜託我們中央政府,拜託國土署大家共同推動好,那署長你先等我,我問花次"},{"start":157.233,"end":179.724,"text":"好 董事長 現在我們社會住宅 尤其在我的選區裡面現在目前要推動有機的 我說過去在我們中央路的一間市村 延滅跡非常大那都是滾的地 現在目前那些地的整個有辦法落實下去推動嗎 就要請這幾位來問這個"},{"start":186.133,"end":196.463,"text":"那一塊我們已經朝用我們自己出資來做都更的方式來蓋社會住宅現在已經整合的比例非常高應該是"},{"start":200.812,"end":227.784,"text":"國營計畫已經開始在跟新北市政府在討論了啦所以這個問題應該速度已經快了因為我們社會住宅普遍的民眾大家的接受度都非常高所以說接受度高我們如果推動了讓我們可以顧到說大家可以資助正義也顧到很多年輕人很多弱勢的人他們大家有一個好處因為你現在你說要買一般的住宅現在先去的"},{"start":229.545,"end":243.655,"text":"你如果說上班族的啦 或是弱勢的 他們根本就買不起所以說你社會住宅 我們一推動 普遍接受度都是非常高所以說在這個部分 我們一定要說 關鍵來推動 尤其呢 我們現在有很多從話區 從話區的比例 我們社會住宅的比例 一定要把它"},{"start":253.622,"end":276.3,"text":"再加進去還有我們一些國有土地國有土地其實很多啊國有土地因為你社會住宅既然接受度高又可以壓制於房價所以我們來推動普遍民眾接受度是 本文部裡面跟署裡面都有在盤點然後就指示我們住入中心來辦"},{"start":277.608,"end":296.474,"text":"對 因為我們大家對我們政府也很有信心不然你說很多人買不起房子到時也說中央的政策是不是有問題你有問題 我們就沒關係 朝向說一般他們的需求這是我們中央政府要推動的目標啦 好不好好 謝謝委員好 感謝 謝謝也感謝召委啦好 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謝謝署長那主要就是說因為根據都市計畫法第45條裡面它一條規定叫做公園體育場所綠地兒童遊戲場等等因依計畫人口密度及自然環境作為系統之部件出具有特殊情形外其佔有地面積"},{"start":27.994,"end":47.485,"text":"总面积不得少于全部计划的面积10%这是目前我们的都市计划法有一这样子的规定但是我调阅了相关国土署的一些统计资料从110年到112年基本上最高的只有澎湖县达到接近10%就是9.6%其他都是低于的"},{"start":48.946,"end":71.727,"text":"第二個就是高雄市有到8.7那許多縣市大概是持平或是維持逐步微微的上漲但是有三個縣市第一個就是嘉義縣它從3.3到現在已經只剩2.9那嘉義市也是那其中彰化縣是從6降到2.4%那我想了解因為我們做這些"},{"start":72.888,"end":99.559,"text":"調查應該是逐步的希望說我們可以達到10%嘛那現在針對於這些掉下來的我們沒有去了解原因是什麼報告因為這一個10%這一個的確當時的定義是希望台灣的這個都市計畫區的公共設施品質尤其是公園綠地方面能夠逐步的成長那事實上在但真的在修法之後回過頭去檢視才發現既有的都市計畫區幾乎都不太可能"},{"start":100.299,"end":122.374,"text":"那後來有些為了要補足這樣一個面積在規劃的過程當中去大肆做了很多的補正補強去規劃但是事實上就面對了它化了以後又要面臨徵收的問題那所以在長期間這樣二三十年下來也發現確實是難以執行那所以後來在相關的公設保留地的策略裡面呢"},{"start":122.854,"end":148.392,"text":"去允許他做一些檢討所以他做一些檢討就如果確實難以執行的部分可能必須要檢討去取消那所以才會有這樣的一個政策的循環但是另外一個就是說大家對於可以取得的這樣的一個項目裡面就透過去加強做建設來希望來補足對這一個都市計畫區內民眾的一個實際需要那其他的部分就透過比較大型的開放空間的設計"},{"start":150.052,"end":175.301,"text":"來去做要求也就是說你有大的建案那我就鼓勵你去做留設開放空間出來來另外一種類型的去補足公園綠地的一個不足是這樣子的概念但是我想了解就是說最主要是我們今天為什麼要公園綠地或是兒童遊戲場的空間最主要是提升生活品質嘛對不對就是世界的一些要求嘛但是我想針對的是彰化縣它從6它原本是6可是它降到2.4%"},{"start":177.163,"end":198.58,"text":"這或許是一個統計上的一個落差啦因為我們不太可能讓他減那麼多這部分是不是容我們回去再調查清楚再給我們一個簡單的說明好不好那第二個部分就是說因為剛剛有講到說現在要達到這10%非常難但是你們有透過一些方法怎樣去爭取一些開放空間那我想了解一下更精確的我們如果針對一些重劃區我們有一些重劃區的案子"},{"start":198.94,"end":224.527,"text":"是不是可以從這裡面也去來要求呢有沒有一些更積極的作為可以去要求他們去開設出這樣子的綠地特別是兒童遊戲場的部分跟委員報告的確因為委員這樣的要求我覺得事實上是可行的只是說過去在相關重化的公共建設的項目裡面是公園綠地通常都是先以綠地化的方式配上少部分的油氣設施去執行"},{"start":226.047,"end":244.125,"text":"他當時擔心的就是說我做了以後萬一五年內人口不夠多我很可能又要面臨設施更新所以他在早期的這個重劃工程的項目裡面並不會特別去做那通常都是透過事後的追加也就是透過這個重劃工程的盈餘再去做補足這樣的設施"},{"start":245.386,"end":272.597,"text":"那有關這一點我想我們可以我再跟地政司我再跟地政司去討論看看是不是請他來要求各地方政府在執行公園重劃區的公園綠地的工程項目裡面主動把兒童遊戲設施把他納進去那這樣他在第一時間就可以執行不然這就會變成是說你等到都已經蓋好了之後你這一塊又變成是你要到你只能在那個很有限的面積裡面去做對又到時候又變成大家互爭"},{"start":273.277,"end":290.806,"text":"空間互相爭空間這個部分大概我們什麼時候可以來追相關的進度呢我想我來跟地政司討論一下因為地政司他必須要找各縣市政府去討論把它納到項目裡面去好那我們一個月之後我們再來跟您了解一下進度好嗎好那謝謝那我們先找一下住都中心抱歉剩下24秒很快請花董事長"},{"start":294.127,"end":318.05,"text":"好 謝謝喔 董事長好 就是說因為住宿中心就是管我們很多的社宅的建制嘛那但是因為我之前看了一些社宅的建案裡面通常兒少休息設施是比較少的 比較說是一些可能是一些開放空間啦 有一些步道那這個部分我們是不是也可以在相關的社宅把兒少遊戲空間這東西把它納入呢 主動納入這個部分當然就我們的"},{"start":319.211,"end":333.397,"text":"開放的空間的部分我們會做一些整理規劃那委員今天提起來我們回去就來規劃檢討好那最後一點時間就是說我希望這次可以來把它納入因為既然社宅就是會很多年輕家庭那也有可能是長照的設施大家會需要一些休憩的"},{"start":334.437,"end":349.008,"text":"的設備這個部分應該要主動那如果同時呢我也希望在做這些相關規劃的時候我們可以找一些兒少的專家團體一起來看這些設施是不是有符合那邊未來的一些需求好不好OK好謝謝先有人知道好謝謝我們張雅玲委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":639,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時17分）謝謝主席。有請署長。"],["主席：吳署長有請。"],["張委員雅琳：部長可以先休息一下。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝署長。根據都市計畫法第四十五條的規定，公園、體育場所、綠地、廣場及兒童遊樂場，應依計畫人口密度及自然環境，作有系統之布置，除具有特殊情形外，其占用土地總面積不得少於全部計畫面積10%。但是我調閱國土署相關的統計資料，從110年到112年，基本上最高的只有澎湖縣達到接近10%，也就是9.6%，其他都是低於的；第二高的是高雄市，有到8.7%，許多縣市大概是持平或是維持逐步微微的上漲。但是有三個縣市，第一個是嘉義縣，從3.3%到現在已經只剩2.9%，包括嘉義市也是；其中彰化縣是從6%降到2.4%。我想我們做這些調查應該是希望能夠逐步達到10%，針對這些比率掉下來的，你們有沒有去了解原因是什麼？"],["吳署長欣修：報告委員，針對10%的比率，的確當時的定義是希望臺灣都市計畫區的公共設施品質，尤其是公園、綠地能夠逐步成長，但是在修法之後，回過頭去檢視才發現既有的都市計畫區幾乎都不太可能，後來有些為了要補足這樣的面積，在規劃的過程當中大肆地做了很多的補強規劃，但是事實上劃了以後，又要面臨徵收的問題。長期間二、三十年下來，也發現確實是難以執行，所以後來在相關的公設保留地策略裡面，允許它做一些檢討，如果確實難以執行的部分，可能必須要檢討去取消，所以才會有這樣的政策循環。但是另外一點，大家對於可以取得的項目就加強做建設，希望補足都市計畫區內民眾的實際需要，其他部分就透過比較大型的開放空間的設計去做要求，也就是說，你有大的建案，我就鼓勵你留設開放空間出來，這是另外一種類型的補足公園綠地的不足。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我想要了解的是，今天為什麼要公園、綠地或是兒童遊戲場的空間？最主要是為了提升生活品質對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員雅琳：這是世界的一些要求嘛！但是我想針對的是彰化縣原本是做到6%，可是現在卻降到2.4%……"],["吳署長欣修：這或許是統計上的落差，因為我們不太可能讓它減那麼多，這部分是不是容我們回去再調查清楚。"],["張委員雅琳：這個部分是不是可以詳細了解一下，然後再給我們一個簡單的說明好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["張委員雅琳：第二個部分，因為剛剛有講到現在要達到10%非常難，但是你們有透過一些方法，設法爭取一些開放空間，我想了解一下更精確的部分，針對一些重劃區的案子，是不是可以從這裡面也來要求呢？有沒有一些更積極的作為可以要求他們開設這樣子的綠地，特別是兒童遊戲場的部分？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，關於委員這樣的要求，我覺得事實上是可行的，只是過去在相關重劃的公共建設項目裡面，公園、綠地通常都是先以綠地化的方式配上少部分的遊憩設施去執行，當時擔心的是做了以後，萬一5年內人口不夠多，很可能又要面臨設施更新，所以在早期重劃工程的項目裡面並不會特別去做，通常都是透過事後的追加，也就是透過重劃工程的盈餘再去補足這樣的設施。有關這一點，我想我們可以再跟地政司……"],["張委員雅琳：有沒有可能再更積極的……"],["吳署長欣修：我們會再跟地政司討論，看看是不是請他們來要求各地方政府，在執行重劃區公園、綠地的工程項目裡面，主動把兒童遊戲設施納進去，這樣他在第一時間就可以去執行。"],["張委員雅琳：對，不然就會變成等到都已經蓋好了之後，這一塊又變成只能在那個很有限的面積裡面去做。"],["吳署長欣修：對，到時候又變成大家互爭空間。"],["張委員雅琳：是，沒錯，所以這個部分我們大概什麼時候可以來追相關的進度？"],["吳署長欣修：關於委員的垂詢，我想我來跟地政司討論一下，因為地政司必須找各縣市政府討論把它納到項目裡面去。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那一個月之後我們再來跟您了解一下進度好嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。","接著我問一下住都中心，抱歉，剩下24秒。"],["主席：請花董事長。"],["花董事長敬群：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：董事長好。因為住都中心就是管很多社宅的建置，但是我之前看了一些社宅的建案裡面，通常兒少休憩設施是比較少的，可能是一些開放空間或是有一些步道。針對這個部分，我們是不是也可以在相關的社宅把兒少遊戲空間主動納入呢？"],["花董事長敬群：跟委員報告，當然就開放空間的部分，我們會做一些整體規劃，委員今天提起來，我們回去就來規劃檢討。"],["張委員雅琳：最後一點時間，我希望這次可以把它納入，因為既然是社宅，就會有很多年輕家庭，也有可能是長照的設施，大家會需要一些休憩的設備，這個部分應該要主動納入。同時我也希望在做這些相關規劃的時候，我們可以找一些兒少的專家團體，一起來看這些設施是不是有符合那邊未來的需求好不好？"],["花董事長敬群：好，謝謝委員指導。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，剛剛委員詢答要求提供的相關資料，請部會會後提供。","下一位請吳琪銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":46,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-18","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","麥玉珍","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","林俊憲","徐富癸","張雅琳","吳琪銘","王鴻薇","高金素梅","邱鎮軍","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、國家住宅及都市更新中心董事長就「都市更新與危老重建之執行成效及未\n來展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「都市更新條例增訂第四十\n四條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等23人擬具「都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例\n第三條及第十一條條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案綜合詢答並處理法律提案】","agenda_id":"1144701_00001"}}},{"id":"161086","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161086","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c10298eca4a7979405cf7df95ebd13a46f97e39277836b040fc9b4925af52c8bb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:10:59 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對"},{"start":161.96,"end":175.884,"text":"八五園恆春當然絕標現在在設計中要申請建造那那個通過之後就會舉辦開工典禮 今年會有機會嗎我們拚看看 拚今年 拚這個其他的部分包含我們潮州還有其他"},{"start":176.528,"end":188.096,"text":"科學園區周邊的萬丹我想未來我們都是有計畫能夠進行配合縣政府我們就建議研議看適合的地點跟那個需求啦我想還是我們趕快來盤點啦那這部分我也會請我們縣政府這邊來配合一下啦那另外我想"},{"start":196.69,"end":209.446,"text":"要謝謝部長我們去年的時候針對我們這個整個肯定國家公園有一些的洋傘之論這些問題我想都有目前都有一個很好的一個改善的一個方案那但是現在還是有幾個問題要請部長這邊來幫忙部長我想過去我們國家公園這個"},{"start":215.2,"end":236.787,"text":"墾丁國家公園已經成立41年了也是我們全國第一個國家公園但是過去因為我們著重在一個生態保育的一個觀念裡面但是現在我們的觀光發展已經到一個階段了那我想我們國家公園署成立之後也應該把觀光的一個要件應該併在我們的一個工作的一個項目裡面部長認同嗎"},{"start":239.588,"end":258.811,"text":"謝謝因為國家公園署也剛成立不久那我們一定會配合包括地方上面在墾丁國家公園的部分那其實兩個禮拜前我們也在那邊有辦過音樂祭的活動可能許委員非常清楚目前洋傘的之亂其實獲得比較大的改善但是還仍然還有精進的空間"},{"start":259.591,"end":281.279,"text":"部長那我們也是希望加快我們整個因為跟交通部我們陳部長有提過我們希望跨部會來整合尤其我們這個整個棚管處的範圍一直到我們坑管處的範圍其實都可以連成一個袋裝的觀光地帶那當然我們一定贊成生態保護一點愛者這是我們最重要的一個資源但是觀光的部分一定要跨部會來整合"},{"start":282.265,"end":308.092,"text":"那部長另外一個很嚴重的問題是說那麋猴跟梅花鹿數量太多而且把我們的這個農作物破壞的很嚴重我們到底有沒有一個策略可以來處理是 報告委員那個墾丁國家公園的部分跟其他國家公園都一樣都有碰到這個麋猴或者是梅花鹿甚至還有綠烈溪這個部分那因為目前我們的主管機關大概是農業部我們會配合農業部因為"},{"start":310.593,"end":335.272,"text":"它既然是生態保育的動物如果我們沒有配合它的話隨便濫捕濫殺的話反而我們會遭受到比較大的責難那我所了解說現在那個專家學者有在做族群的監測的工作但是要研發更有效率的捕捉技術就是說比較人道或是比較可以考慮到生態保育兩者之間的平衡這真的比較困難"},{"start":337.634,"end":343.357,"text":"但是那煤化路在樓屋被撞,不是就發生車禍啦,這很難聽的我聽過,我聽過所以我想說,是不是可以屏東管政部跟農業部的林保署可以共同來配合,我們一定會配合,沒問題這部分我們希望部長,你有那個高度啦,我相信大家作為來合作一下然後怎麼樣有效地來遏止這樣的一個生態的浩劫好,謝謝"},{"start":366.491,"end":366.875,"text":"謝謝徐富格委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":602,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時11分）謝謝主席，有請劉部長跟國土署吳署長。"],["主席：劉部長、吳署長，有請。"],["劉部長世芳：徐委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長、署長午安。部長，過去謝謝部長一直關心我們屏東縣的各項建設，我們現在還是有幾個問題要請部長再繼續給我們支持。部長，我們去年成功達成8年20萬的社宅政策目標，我們目前訂定新的目標是2032年要達到100萬，目前這個案子看起來六都的比例比較高，非六都的部分加起來好像連第4名的桃園市都還有點落差。當然，區域均衡發展是未來我們很重要的政策，我想也是賴總統一直要求的處理機制。針對屏東縣，部長，這部分能不能再給予我們怎麼樣的協助？謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，在非六都我們其實也沒有放棄，我們也會參考地方的實際需求布建。以屏東來講，在屏東、屏東市區還有內埔、潮州，還有到恆春，甚至到相關萬丹等等也都有研議設置，所以我們逐步的布建，只要地方需求是很明確的，我們都會去努力。"],["徐委員富癸：我們都市的進步也需要做很多的超前規劃跟部署。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["徐委員富癸：當然目前我們屏東市跟潮州都已經在興建當中，另外還有規劃了三個地方，其中恆春的部分112年已經完成決標待開工，但到目前為止好像還沒有進度，目前有遇到什麼困境嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，因為它前期就會有相關的規劃設計，還有都市設計的審查，所以我們大概都會給它一個預定期間，不會決標完馬上開工，後面還有細部設計跟相關的審查在進行。"],["徐委員富癸：所以有照我們的進度在走？"],["吳署長欣修：有、有，都有照進度在執行。"],["徐委員富癸：所以大概什麼時候可以動工？"],["吳署長欣修：這個部分看住都中心有沒有比較明確的時間。"],["徐委員富癸：恆春的部分，對。"],["花董事長敬群：報告委員，恆春當然決標了，現在正在規劃設計中，要申請建照，通過之後就會舉辦開工典禮。"],["徐委員富癸：今年會有機會？"],["花董事長敬群：我們拚看看。"],["徐委員富癸：拚今年啦！"],["花董事長敬群：拚一下。"],["徐委員富癸：其他的部分，包含我們潮州還有其他科學園區周邊的萬丹，未來我們都是有計畫，希望來配合縣政府。"],["吳署長欣修：我們就繼續研議看看適合的地點跟需求，周圍的部分，我們都會繼續研議。"],["徐委員富癸：好啊！我們還是趕快來盤點，這部分我也會請縣政府這邊來配合一下！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，我要謝謝部長在去年的時候，針對整個墾丁國家公園有一些陽傘之亂，這些問題目前都有很好的改善方案，但是現在還是有幾個問題，要請部長來幫忙。部長，墾丁國家公園已經成立41年了，也是我們全國第一個國家公園，過去我們著重在生態保育的觀念，但是現在的觀光發展已經到一個階段，國家公園署成立之後也應該把觀光的要件併在我們的工作項目裡面，部長認同嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝，因為國家公園署也剛成立不久，我們一定會配合地方在墾丁國家公園的部分，其實兩個禮拜前，我們也在那邊辦過音樂祭的活動，可能徐委員也非常清楚，目前陽傘之亂已經獲得比較大的改善，但是仍然還有精進的空間。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我們希望能夠加快腳步，其實我跟交通部陳部長提過我們希望跨部會整合，尤其從鵬管處一直到墾管處的範圍，其實可以連成帶狀的觀光地帶，當然我們贊成生態保育一定要做，這是我們最重要的資源，但是觀光的部分一定要跨部會來整合。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，另外一個很嚴重的問題就是獼猴跟梅花鹿的數量太多，而且把我們的農作物破壞得很嚴重，這部分到底有沒有策略可以來處理？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，墾丁國家公園跟其他國家公園都一樣，都有碰到獼猴或者是梅花鹿的問題，甚至還有綠鬣蜥，因為目前的主管機關是農業部，我們會配合農業部，因為牠既然是生態保育的動物，如果我們沒有配合，隨便濫捕、濫殺的話，反而我們會遭受到比較大的責難。就我所了解，現在專家學者有在做族群監測的工作，但是要研發更有效率的捕捉技術，也就是比較人道或是比較可以考慮到生態保育兩者之間的平衡，這真的比較困難。"],["徐委員富癸：梅花鹿在路上亂跑，常常發生車禍，這真的很嚴重。"],["劉部長世芳：我有聽過，所以我想屏東縣政府是不是可以跟農業部林保署共同配合？我們一定會配合，這沒有問題。"],["徐委員富癸：針對這部分，部長你有那個高度，我希望大家能夠一起合作，看看能夠怎麼樣有效遏止這樣的生態浩劫。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。","下一位請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":46,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-18","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","麥玉珍","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","林俊憲","徐富癸","張雅琳","吳琪銘","王鴻薇","高金素梅","邱鎮軍","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、國家住宅及都市更新中心董事長就「都市更新與危老重建之執行成效及未\n來展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「都市更新條例增訂第四十\n四條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等23人擬具「都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例\n第三條及第十一條條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案綜合詢答並處理法律提案】","agenda_id":"1144701_00001"}}},{"id":"161085","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161085","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1b288114ef8483f37cf7df95ebd13a46f97e39277836b040f4318f82bdde02a7a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:56:37 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本席邀請我們內政部的劉部長劉部長有請還有我們國土署吳署長有請林委員好保證你好 部長部長我現在要講的是對於蘭科周邊交通非常重要的建設這相關地理位置部長不一定清楚但吳署長非常了解那只要拜託部長部長你負責支持就好了"},{"start":38.632,"end":40.06,"text":"第一個,南科啊"},{"start":41.158,"end":70.501,"text":"南科現在發展非常快速他去年產值就已經超過足科了而且就業人口飛來越來越多但是他周邊的交通趕不上他的發展所以其實從賴清德總統擔任市長的時候他就準備要再多建幾條橋跨過曾文溪其中南科那條烏橋中路這輸掉你知道嗎烏橋中路現在從南科幾乎是由南向西北"},{"start":71.101,"end":71.135,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":71.687,"end":100.686,"text":"由南向西北喔 跟他弄到正文西邊就沒飛行啦我們現在要騎一條橋由烏橋中路喔 建一條跨正文西的大橋到麻豆 到讓南科的人到麻豆 十分鐘啦 一樣啦喔麻豆要過來南科也十分鐘啦 是啊 所以你現在烏橋中路從南科到麻豆 過溪溪邊一條防汛道路喔 叫南四十嘛我們要先平安嘛喔 南四十你現在"},{"start":102.045,"end":122.513,"text":"目前的計畫喔 蘇長 我們是向北走啦是先走到 第一階段走到麻山大橋嘛是對不對對到麻山大橋是還不夠啦它的效應應該在麻山大橋再往東北去走到北阿西啦接到八十四快速道路啦是後面這一段喔 我們趕快再納入新的計畫啦但是 這整個經緯喔"},{"start":129.209,"end":155.829,"text":"差不多要30倍的話那我們地方自籌8億8千萬的話可能需要中央補助大概有29億多那現在也感謝啦 我知道部長有給我們支持部長也有支持我們這條的計畫所以希望在今年能夠先核定我們的先期的工程款"},{"start":157.363,"end":161.308,"text":"OK 因為這 開始那個委員 跟貴委員兩個 都有去現場有請出過來邊 都有來請出過來邊 其實這幾天來市府都有站出來啦所以在這個新澤當中 列到生活圈的部分 我們大概從兩年前就開始"},{"start":176.127,"end":198.727,"text":"協助市府再提出相關的申請那所以在今年的部分我們都有簽報到部裡面那因為審議會的部分大概沒有問題因為所有的審查委員都認同這條道路的這個烏橋中路的一個重要性還有這個南市市的這個拓寬我想這部分我們後續都會持續的來協助好 非常感謝署長阿伯 再拜託"},{"start":201.028,"end":219.535,"text":"這個其實喊了很多年啦你看從賴總統當賴市長的時候就開始規劃那地方聽到這樣的一個無潮中路的跨西大橋跨正溫區大橋大概五六年前一直到現在現在我們才總算有核定下來報告林委員我在上個禮拜已經有批准了"},{"start":220.383,"end":244.172,"text":"對 我知道 你有就批的是第一期的先期工程款啦對當然我後面會是滾動式來進行啦對 因為土地取得的部分還要再處理啦對 其他的都不是困難地方說明會也已經在開完了 對那我會請市政府的相關單位公務局等來全力配合我們內政部這裡是那也感謝部長的支持啦但是一條橋要不夠啦其實還要再需要另外一條橋啦這條橋叫做南41啦"},{"start":252.877,"end":270.807,"text":"因為現在台南南柯對外的一條命脈叫西港大橋西港大橋 北斗立山西港大橋 大家專講喔最塞車的橋 要前五名公務總局的統計 早上七點到八點 上班時間一個小時 超過三千輛車上橋"},{"start":273.217,"end":279.58,"text":"所以我剛才說的那個烏橋中路的跨增雲溪大橋就是要解決舒緩西港大橋的塞車 還有這條橋啦這條就是嘉麗的南四時雲直接往南來跨過增雲溪 接到台南才有新街啦"},{"start":296.031,"end":307.82,"text":"讓嘉麗要過來到市區往南道市區不必再走西港大橋同樣可以減緩西港大橋的塞車我們辦過幾次的會跟內政部國土署"},{"start":312.93,"end":330.108,"text":"我在上個月 也在我辦公室召開協調會我們書裡面也表達同意今天在這裡 拜託保證我再讓你知道這個事情 也請保證要支持因為剛起步我想我們都會一路協助市府逐步來提"},{"start":330.749,"end":352.495,"text":"那他或許在甚至在這一期還來不及但是我想有提案的話有提案的話就算這一期來不及也會把它延續到下一期去執行對因為南科一定非常重要全世界最重要的高科技的半導體相關東西都在南科生產所以我們必須要改善它已經非常嚴重的對外交通所以這條橋再做起來的話"},{"start":355.756,"end":375.113,"text":"那對於當地交通的改善喔 這個也非常有用拜託請主席再給我一分鐘啦喔 另外一個喔這條就輸掉我才知道 這個非常地方啦 就在溪石瓦路喔 古溪石瓦路到明陵路路口就是說你走明陵路 你要往裡面溪石瓦路喔 這喜思路它有兩節嘛"},{"start":379.675,"end":391.499,"text":"那裡只有8米啦進去又變成18米啦所以經常發生車禍啦所以我們那時候有說這個明天我禮拜那時候這差不多700多米喔要把它拓乾到18米"},{"start":392.441,"end":417.034,"text":"市長你 我覺得你在台南的選擇我們選擇你 廢坑也把你提到這條路有 你之前廢坑的選擇就提出來 企務也有提出來所以他前面那個擁地的部分 他已經有在進行了市府提出來是因為市府要負責土地對 他們現在已經在進行了所以這個部分 在生活圈的審查裡面大概也沒有問題因為這個是很明確 屬於平井路段要打通"},{"start":417.754,"end":423.036,"text":"這條我有拜託保庭,保庭有答應把它框架起來了,部長也把它框架下來了現在就等我們地方完整相關土地的地格,我們就可以來做了這個沒有問題,因為剛好灣里的重劃也要,洗漱灣里的重劃也要完成他那邊用瓜地啦,他那邊用瓜地現在種的要好了,所以他要住很多人啦"},{"start":439.221,"end":453.615,"text":"所以這條路的拓寬是適合的那我們感謝部長的支持那或許的話在地方的用地取得然後再跟內政部這裡來配合好不好是好感謝部長感謝署長好謝謝主席好謝謝林俊秀"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":550,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時56分）謝謝主席，本席邀請內政部劉部長，還有國土署吳署長。"],["主席：有請劉部長，有請吳署長。"],["劉部長世芳：林委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長你好。部長，我現在要講的是對於南科周邊交通非常重要的建設，相關地理位置部長不一定清楚，但吳署長非常了解，只要拜託部長負責支持就好了。第一個，南科現在發展非常快速，它去年產值就已經超過竹科了，而且就業人口越來越多，但是它周邊的交通趕不上它的發展，其實從賴清德總統擔任市長的時候，他就準備要再多建幾條橋跨過曾文溪，其中南科那條烏橋中路，署長，你知道嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["林委員俊憲：烏橋中路現在從南科幾乎是由南向西北，當它撞到曾文溪，變成沒尾巷，我們現在要蓋一條橋，由烏橋中路建一條跨曾文溪的大橋到麻豆，讓南科的人到麻豆10分鐘，相同的，麻豆要過來南科也10分鐘。接下來，烏橋中路從南科到麻豆跨過溪，溪邊那條防汛道路叫南40線，我們新編南40線目前的計畫，署長，我們是向北走啦！第一階段先到麻善大橋，對嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：是，對。"],["林委員俊憲：但延伸到麻善大橋還是不夠啦！它的效益應該在麻善大橋再往東北，接到台84線快速道路，後面這一段我們趕快再納入新的計畫，但是這整個經費差不多要三十八億多，地方自籌8億8,000萬的話，可能需要中央補助大概有二十九億多。"],["吳署長欣修：了解。"],["林委員俊憲：現在也感謝啦！我知道部長有給予我們支持，部長也有支持我們這條橋的計畫，所以希望在今年能夠先核定我們先期的工程款。"],["吳署長欣修：了解，因為確實委員跟郭委員兩位都有到現場爭取好幾次了。"],["林委員俊憲：你有來過嘛！對。"],["吳署長欣修：都有來爭取好幾次了，這個案子在這幾年來，市府也都有提出，所以在審查當中，它列到生活圈的部分，我們大概從兩年前就開始協助市府再提出相關的申請，所以在今年的部分，我們都有簽報到部裡面，審議會的部分大概沒有問題，因為所有的審查委員都認同烏橋中路的重要性，還有南40線的拓寬，我想這部分我們後續都會持續協助。"],["林委員俊憲：好，非常感謝署長。部長，再拜託！這個其實喊了很多年，你看從賴總統當賴市長的時候就開始規劃，地方聽到烏橋中路的跨曾文溪大橋大概是五、六年前，一直到現在，我們才總算有核定下來。"],["劉部長世芳：報告林委員，我在上個禮拜已經有批准了。"],["林委員俊憲：對，我知道，你批的是第一期的先期工程款。"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["林委員俊憲：當然後面會滾動式來進行。"],["劉部長世芳：對，因為土地取得的部分還要再處理，其他的都不是困難。"],["林委員俊憲：地方說明會也已經開完了？"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["林委員俊憲：我會請市政府相關單位、工務局等全力配合內政部。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["林委員俊憲：也感謝部長的支持，但是一條橋還不夠，其實還需要另外一條橋，這條橋叫做南41，署長，你知道嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：我了解。"],["林委員俊憲：因為現在臺南南科對外的一條命脈叫西港大橋，部長，你知道西港大橋名列全國最塞車的橋差不多前五名，據公路局統計，早上7點到8點上班時間一個小時，超過3,000輛車上橋，1秒就有1臺車上去，很恐怖，所以我剛才說的烏橋中路的跨曾文溪大橋，就是要解決舒緩西港大橋的塞車，還有這條橋，這條橋就是佳里的南41直接往南，跨過曾文溪接到臺南，差不多到新吉，讓佳里往南到市區不必再走西港大橋，同樣可以減緩西港大橋的塞車，這部分我們跟國土署辦過幾次會勘，我在上個月也在我的辦公室召開協調會，署裡面也表達同意，今天在這裡再拜託部長，讓你知道這件事情，也請部長要支持。"],["吳署長欣修：了解，這個案子剛開始起步，我想我們都會一路協助市府逐步來提，或許這一期還來不及，但是若有提案的話，就算這一期來不及，我們也會把它延續到下一期去執行。"],["林委員俊憲：對，因為南科已經非常重要，全世界最重要的高科技半導體相關產品都在南科生產，所以我們必須改善它已經非常嚴重的對外交通問題。這條橋再做起來的話，對於當地交通的改善會非常有用。","請主席再給我1分鐘。另外，這一條可能署長比較知道，這個非常地方，就是在舊喜樹路跟明興路口，如果你走明興路，要轉進去喜樹路，喜樹路有兩節，喜樹路接明興路那裡只有8米。"],["吳署長欣修：是啊！"],["林委員俊憲：進去又變成18米。"],["吳署長欣修：我了解。"],["林委員俊憲：所以經常發生車禍，我們以前有提到明興路轉進去喜樹路差不多有七百多米，要把它拓寬到18米。署長，我請你來臺南會勘，那時候也跟你提起這條路。"],["吳署長欣修：有，你之前會勘的時候就有拿出來，市府也有拿出來，所以前面用地的部分，他們已經有在進行了。"],["林委員俊憲：市府提出來是因為市府要負責土地，因為牽涉到周遭土地。"],["吳署長欣修：對、對、對，他們現在已經在進行了，所以這個部分在生活圈的審查大概也沒有問題，因為這個很明確屬於瓶頸路段要打通，而且我們要……"],["林委員俊憲：這條我有拜託部長，部長有答應把它匡列起來。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["林委員俊憲：就等我們地方完成相關土地的取得，我們就可以來做。"],["吳署長欣修：對、對，這個沒有問題，剛好喜樹、灣裡的重劃也完成，大概延續起來交通的部分……"],["林委員俊憲：對，喜樹和灣裡中間那塊鹽窟仔地現在要重劃好了，以後那邊會住很多人，這條路拓寬的效應就會出來了。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["林委員俊憲：我們感謝部長的支持，後續地方的用地取得再跟內政部這裡來配合，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["林委員俊憲：好，感謝部長，感謝署長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝林俊憲委員，休息5分鐘。","休息（11時4分）","繼續開會（11時10分）"],["主席：報告委員會，我們繼續開會，今天中午不休息。","現在我們請鄭天財委員質詢，鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員不在。","下一位我們請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":46,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-18","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","麥玉珍","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","林俊憲","徐富癸","張雅琳","吳琪銘","王鴻薇","高金素梅","邱鎮軍","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、國家住宅及都市更新中心董事長就「都市更新與危老重建之執行成效及未\n來展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「都市更新條例增訂第四十\n四條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等23人擬具「都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例\n第三條及第十一條條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案綜合詢答並處理法律提案】","agenda_id":"1144701_00001"}}},{"id":"161084","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161084","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c16ebeb7415857c3d2cf7df95ebd13a46f97e39277836b040f5a549a2cf34375e35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"10:47:45 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我們本來就有補助各縣市政府有相關的輔導團跟專案辦公室那你們的指導有沒有要他成立這個諮詢平台說明一下現在就是透過輔導團跟專案辦公室他們本身就可以做這些事情"},{"start":143.467,"end":159.965,"text":"那現在只是說他們可以做但是他們有沒有做是一回事嗎其實都有 都有在接受做這些那接著本席繼續問針對核建爭議較多的類型是否可以先行分類建議原則性的指導"},{"start":162.249,"end":178.33,"text":"報告就是說我們現在就是跟地方政府討論雙北現在是用注意事項也就是說你在訂定這個合建契約的時候雙方要注意哪些內容那第二個呢我們現在還有在討論就是說另外叫做風險控管事項"},{"start":179.871,"end":207.864,"text":"風險控管制也就把過去常發生的樣態你們在執行過程當中要注意哪些執行的風險那提醒雙方在這合約裡面都應該要去注意或建立一些制度那目前部內有沒有五年合建案件爭議類型的分類統計報告目前是沒有但是我們都是透過這個部分我想我剛剛的意思就是說我們透過在跟地方開會請他們把這一類的案件"},{"start":208.744,"end":224.496,"text":"過去所發生的糾紛通通大家統整起來我們來進行做一些分類那也可以提供作為後面我們要訂定相關注意事項跟風險控管事項的這個依據好那最後合建契約協議的輔導小組這一個可以來成立嗎"},{"start":229.086,"end":237.488,"text":"包括就是我們會如果這個內容出來我們一樣會交給地方政府你會不會明確的規範請他們有這樣的一個小組對對應該這麼說啦就是我們目前的預算來講是用輔導團跟專案辦公室的形式那未來我們就再來跟在後面的委託裡面呢就會請他們把這些要輔導這個這個協議合建的部分一併都納進來"},{"start":256.432,"end":266.921,"text":"好謝謝那接著本席要接著問請教部長現在我們整個耐震弱成補強的這樣的一個推動成效好像"},{"start":267.697,"end":294.394,"text":"不是很好報告因為其實我們每年都有編然後再來就是你一年也沒編多少錢我們一年有大概一億多一億多你看一年只可以補助幾戶你自己說應該這麼說我跟委員報告因為其實耐震補強的過程就會從出產品開始目前來講有一些民眾是不太願意是因為他們很擔心列出來的時候狀況沒有很好"},{"start":295.393,"end":318.016,"text":"所以往往都是第一步所以他沒辦法他會影響他的房價所以他不太願意第一步跨出第一步但是因為從921之後然後陸續一些大地震我們都知道說我們事先的補強會有助於未來就是說預防災害的發生那如果你一年一億多我算了一下大概幾十戶"},{"start":322.312,"end":344.807,"text":"一年大概是五到七件一年大概是五到七件你看全國一個縣是分不到一件所以這個我覺得很值得檢討因為我們有感覺到你在都會區或非都會區應該是有它的差異像我們部長當過副市長"},{"start":347.709,"end":363.366,"text":"這光是高雄市區跟以前的高雄縣它就不一樣還有像我們其他非六都的縣市那其實有這種資訊落差的問題所謂資訊落差就是可能有些民眾他不知道"},{"start":364.207,"end":391.364,"text":"其实以一般非都会区它也没有什么会影响它地价你这个可能还是都市思维所以这个部分我们是希望你这样一亿多真的太少好像只是点缀式的没有真的要做那这一块其实也是民众的权益民众的权益健全我们整个都市的发展我们都应该要兼顾所以这个部分应该要来加强吧"},{"start":392.069,"end":412.712,"text":"這根文報告啦 其實我們大概每年都有去各縣市做推廣各縣市做推廣那其實我們剛剛講的是一個沒有各縣市推廣 可是你一年只有幾間大概過去的經驗就去推廣大概民眾的反應是這樣啦因為尤其大概對於老舊的公寓大概都會有整合的問題因為要提到那一陣補強"},{"start":413.803,"end":431.363,"text":"那其實大家都要共同出資啦因為不會政府不可能百分之百還是會有共同出資的問題但是就會就會出現有人願意出資有人不願意出資所以我們過去的輔導案件很多 整合的問題嘛對 也會出現整合的問題所以過去在這個案例當中"},{"start":432.479,"end":448.781,"text":"公寓大廈的管理組織其實是非常重要他要能夠去溝通所有的住戶大家一起願意來做那這也是一個很重要的成敗關鍵所以過去曾經我們也高達一年要鞭屍幾億但是慢慢減少也是因為實際上就是因為你們落實不了"},{"start":449.201,"end":467.571,"text":"所以一直減少應該是說在民眾這兩步要能跨得出去這樣會比較容易來進行所以好 那我們的宣導還有我們很多的溝通甚至我們的協助也很重要啊是譬如說我們有沒有考慮那種一站式的服務窗口讓各直轄市也好縣市政府"},{"start":468.251,"end":491.619,"text":"我們應該就是說這個政策我們利益非常好剛剛署長講了本來一年可能十幾億甚至我們如果做得好幾十億我們就應該為民眾的這種耐政的弱成補強來加強那可是呢就實施的不好實施不好是因為什麼是因為我覺得有資訊的落差"},{"start":493.148,"end":518.961,"text":"還有我們沒有確實去落實所以今天因為剛好有類似的議題所以本席也在這邊要特別的來強調部長加油一點可以嗎我們會來跟地方來加強第一個溝通第二個是宣傳把問題找出來然後我們應該要加強宣導然後地方政府他也應該要有一些這種服務的窗口要做好我想這我們後面會來加強宣導感謝"},{"start":521.861,"end":521.901,"text":"謝謝徐馨"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":486,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時47分）謝謝主席。本席有請劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。本席先就剛剛有關合建契約的問題直接再追問，在合建契約的部分，內政部是否有一些數據統計可以佐證，合建契約是否會因為行政審議的意見不一致，導致履約過程中出現大量的訴訟爭端，有沒有這種情況？"],["劉部長世芳：我請署長回答。"],["吳署長欣修：因為合建契約的內容不一定會反映在都更的計畫書裡面，它往往都是雙方私人合意的一些內容，最容易……"],["徐委員欣瑩：有沒有過去的經驗或相關數據？"],["吳署長欣修：過去經驗就是很容易因為資訊不對稱，就是他不曉得都更條例裡面有什麼樣的保障。第二個，過程當中有遇到政策或法令的修正，導致雙方的權利義務會發生改變，這些就是一般在合建契約裡面最常出現的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：內政部有沒有規劃建立合建契約的參考版本或是諮詢平臺，讓各類型契約有指引？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，就是因為樣態太多種，沒有辦法用範本的方式，因為合建……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你就依據不同樣態開始來做啊！沒有辦法？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為第一個，這是私人契約，我們不曉得他們中間的協議內容，因為協議內容，甚至從單純的分屋、分地到還要去賣……"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果沒辦法建立參考版本，有沒有諮詢平臺？"],["吳署長欣修：所以我跟委員報告，過去我們跟地方政府討論的時候，像雙北就是去訂注意事項，我們覺得注意事項是一個非常好的機制……"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席的問題是，有沒有要請各縣市政府來提供一些諮詢平臺，或是你們這裡有沒有辦法怎麼樣來進行？"],["吳署長欣修：我們本來就有補助各縣市政府有相關的輔導團跟專案辦公室，其實這就是提供諮詢……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們的指導有沒有要他建立這個諮詢平臺？"],["吳署長欣修：說明一下，現在就是透過輔導團跟專案辦公室，他們本身就可以做這件事情，現在只是說……"],["徐委員欣瑩：他們可以做，但是他們有沒有做是一回事。"],["吳署長欣修：其實都有，他們都有接受做這件事。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，本席接著繼續問，針對合建爭議較多的類型，是否可以先行分類建立原則性的指導？"],["吳署長欣修：我們跟地方政府討論過，雙北現在是用注意事項，也就是說，你在訂定合建契約的時候，雙方要注意哪些內容。第二個，我們現在還有在討論的是風險控管事項，也就是把過去常發生的樣態，你們在執行過程當中要注意哪些執行的風險，提醒雙方在合約裡面都應該要去注意或建立一些制度。"],["徐委員欣瑩：目前部內有沒有5年合建案件爭議類型的分類統計報告？"],["吳署長欣修：目前是沒有，但是我們都是透過……"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以提供嗎？可以去著手……"],["吳署長欣修：關於這個部分，我剛剛的意思就是，我們透過再跟地方開會，請他們把這一類案件過去所發生的糾紛統整起來，我們來做一些分類，也可以提供作為後面我們要訂定相關注意事項跟風險控管事項的依據。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後，可以成立合建契約協議的輔導小組嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：如果這個內容出來，我們一樣會交給地方政府，他們有相關的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你會不會明確的規範，請他們成立一個這樣的小組？"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，以我們目前的預算來講，是用輔導團跟專案辦公室的形式，而未來我們在後面的委託裡面，就會請他們把要輔導協議合建的部分一併都納進來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。本席要接著請教部長，現在我們耐震弱層補強的推動成效好像不是很好？"],["吳署長欣修：其實我們每年都有編……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我先講，一個是成效，再來就是你一年也沒編多少錢嘛？"],["吳署長欣修：我們一年有大概一億多。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你看一億多一年只可以補助幾戶？你自己說。"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，我跟委員報告，其實耐震補強的過程就會從初詳評開始，目前有些民眾會不太願意，是因為他們很擔心列出來的時候狀況沒有很好，所以往往都是第一步……"],["徐委員欣瑩：狀況沒有很好，所以呢？所以他沒辦法……"],["吳署長欣修：這會影響他的房價，所以他不太願意跨出第一步。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是從921以及陸續一些大地震以後，我們都知道事先補強有助於未來預防災害的發生，如果你一年一億多，我算了一下，大概幾十戶……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有那麼少。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有那麼少嗎？部長說沒有那麼少。"],["吳署長欣修：一年大概是5到7件啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！你看全國一個縣市分不到一件。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這個我覺得很值得檢討，因為我們有感覺到在都會區或在非都會區應該有它的差異，像我們部長當過副市長，光是高雄市區跟以前的高雄縣就不一樣，還有像其他非六都的縣市，其實有這種資訊落差的問題，所謂資訊落差就是可能有些民眾不知道，以一般非都會區也沒有什麼會影響它的地價，你講的可能還是都市思維，所以這個部分，這樣一億多真的太少……"],["吳署長欣修：我了解。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好像只是點綴式的，沒有真的要做，這一塊其實也是民眾的權益啊！"],["吳署長欣修：了解。"],["徐委員欣瑩：民眾的權益、健全整個都市的發展，我們都應該要兼顧，所以這個部分應該要來加強吧！"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我們每年都有去各縣市推廣，其實我們剛剛講的是一個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們有去各縣市推廣，可是一年就只有幾件。"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，過去的經驗就是去推廣，民眾的反映是這樣，尤其是對於老舊的公寓，大概都會有整合的問題，因為要提到耐震補強，其實大家就要共同出資，政府不可能百分之百負擔，還是會有共同出資的問題，但是就會出現有人願意出資、有人不願意出資。我們過去的輔導案件很多……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以是整合的問題嘛。"],["吳署長欣修：對，也會出現整合的問題。過去在案例當中，公寓大廈的管理組織其實非常重要，它要能夠去溝通所有的住戶，大家願意一起來做，這也是一個很重要的成敗關鍵我們過去也曾經一年編高達十幾億，但是慢慢減少，也是因為實際上的案件數……"],["徐委員欣瑩：就是因為你們落實不了，所以一直減少、一直減少。"],["吳署長欣修：應該是說民眾這兩步要能跨得出去，這樣會比較容易執行。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們的宣導，還有你們很多的溝通，甚至你們的協助也很重要啊！譬如說，你們有沒有考慮一站式服務窗口，讓各直轄市、縣市政府也好，你們應該……這個政策立意非常好，剛剛署長講了，本來一年可能十幾億，甚至如果做得好是幾十億，我們就應該為民眾的耐震弱層補強來加強，可是實施的不好，實施的不好是因為我覺得有資訊的落差，還有我們沒有確實去落實。今天因為剛好有類似的議題，所以本席也要在這邊特別強調，部長加油一點，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：我們會跟地方加強，第一個是溝通，第二個是宣傳。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對！把問題找出來，然後我們應該要加強宣導。"],["吳署長欣修：去宣傳，是！"],["徐委員欣瑩：地方政府也應該有一些服務的窗口要做好。"],["吳署長欣修：是，我們後面會加強宣導，感謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。","報告委員會，我們在林俊憲委員質詢完後，休息5分鐘。","下一位請鄭正鈐委員質詢，鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","下一位我們請林俊憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":46,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-18","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","麥玉珍","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","林俊憲","徐富癸","張雅琳","吳琪銘","王鴻薇","高金素梅","邱鎮軍","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、國家住宅及都市更新中心董事長就「都市更新與危老重建之執行成效及未\n來展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「都市更新條例增訂第四十\n四條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等23人擬具「都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例\n第三條及第十一條條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案綜合詢答並處理法律提案】","agenda_id":"1144701_00001"}}},{"id":"161083","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161083","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1428fc886938f9436cf7df95ebd13a46f97e39277836b040f07ad72fc102174e05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:37:42 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吳署長有請請署長 吳署長署長早安"},{"start":12.373,"end":33.713,"text":"這個本期這次有提出這個都市更新條例的新增條例的這個提案那大體上都市更新基本上以權力變換的方式為之但是還是有所謂的合建等等這樣子的一個機制但是因為都市更新它其實是一門非常專業的學士所以在實務上從事都市更新的過程之中常常會因為資訊不對稱的問題去衍生很多的糾紛那麼這樣的糾紛"},{"start":38.169,"end":52.278,"text":"輕則影響單一都市更新的推動重則被擴散然後造成整體大家對於都市更新的不信任然後造成這個通案的難以推動我想這件事情是值得大家好好來商討的"},{"start":53.118,"end":76.532,"text":"那麼現在雖然有台北市政府跟新北市政府有所謂的注意事項要來調整這個資訊不對稱的問題但是強度夠不夠這我想是我提出這一次法律修正案的一個非常重要的一個原因那所以我們有參酌消費者保護法跟租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例的規定作為定型化契約的概念那麼這件事情其實就是拋磚引玉我們希望可以在討論法條的過程之中"},{"start":77.892,"end":98.961,"text":"去讓這個資訊不對稱的問題可以凸顯而且有一個務實的解決方案這是我想這是提案的部分那我就順著這個話我們今天質詢就來談這樣子的一個問題在合建的都跟合建契約裡面其實常常出現因為資訊不對稱所以所造成的一些衝擊比如說我舉個例子就是說要合建一定是我地主跟想要"},{"start":99.626,"end":117.932,"text":"從事都更的這個建商一起商量嘛對不對那在商量過程中當然就有權利物關係啊我要出多少地元啊我可以分配回來多少等等當然它是一個私契約的合意行為這個您剛剛回答很多委員質詢的時候已經講得非常的清楚但就是在這個私人契約達成的過程之中有可能會出現一些狀況我就舉例跟你說比如說"},{"start":120.573,"end":135.251,"text":"這個有很多這個核建的都更案他們會在裡面自己訂契約啊裡面會講說比如說地主我可以撤 地主啊我如果要撤銷我的都更同意書我要負賠償責任因為你說我們案子都開始了你頭都洗了對不對可是其實從都更條例第37條裡面來講你如果說這個"},{"start":138.467,"end":162.811,"text":"除了有特殊的規定之外可以撤銷之外也有啊比如說所有權人如果在公開展覽計畫所載更新之後分配的權利價值是低於出具同意書者所以就是地主的保障條款嘛你不能說公展之後反而條件變更差嘛如果條件變更差你就允許地主退出嘛對不對這其實是對於願意出地的地主的一個保障條款對不對可是很多地主不見得知道這件事啊"},{"start":163.231,"end":183.692,"text":"他不見得了解獨根條例37條有規定有保障他的條款以至於他在跟建商跟開發商定義獨根契約的時候就說好我如果撤回同意書我要負賠償責任好問題就出現了嘛如果真的出現這樣的狀況的時候變成要嘛他要忍受不平等的待遇要嘛他撤銷要負責賠償法律之間彼此也會出現衝突的情況"},{"start":184.432,"end":198.786,"text":"這就是我覺得資訊不對稱會帶來的問題其他的相關的樣態還有包含比如說額外的容積獎勵他們自己協議說我地主是不能分享的多賺的都算建商的或者是說也禁止這個地主去找其他的建商來做洽談"},{"start":199.807,"end":224.529,"text":"那就造成所謂的不公平的競爭就壟斷的這樣一個概念這些都是在目前的機制下用合議方式處理的時候可能會對於相對來講地主出現保障不足資訊不對稱造成不公平契約的這樣子的一個狀況那請問署長遇到這些狀況這些樣態應該要怎麼辦如果我們不用定型化契約的方式來處理有沒有好的方法來處理請署長回答"},{"start":225.374,"end":242.9,"text":"也跟委員報告的確也是這幾年來這個這個樣態已經太多樣化那所以導致說他很難用公法的定義去把它框住因為框住的時候有好有壞壞的時候就是你雙方的協議內容他就不一定能夠成為計劃書的一個"},{"start":245.362,"end":255.772,"text":"的標準因為我們在相關的權力變換價值上面都有固定的計算法但是合建是他允許雙方用協議的方式這也是我們在為什麼一開始也不太"},{"start":256.451,"end":278.734,"text":"想去推 因為你你影響了現在雙方在執行中的協議的內容那但是委員所提到的的確就是尤其在地主端比較容易有資訊不對稱他不曉得在法規如果回歸到都更條例他有哪一些是可以受保障雙方應該要納進去的那這也是我們為什麼在跟各縣市政府討論的時候大家都傾向"},{"start":279.655,"end":294.435,"text":"去嚴定出更多的注意事項那但是呢只要有案件在談協議的時候我們就主動提供給雙方去作為在簽訂協議的時候的一個認知那第二個呢就是有所謂的風險控管事項"},{"start":295.776,"end":323.302,"text":"風險控管事項就是會回應到剛剛委員所提到的我過程當中可能因為政策或法規的更動導致雙方的權利義務關係有可能產生變化那這一些要怎麼去因應那第三個也就是甚至也有人提到要不要所謂的強制信託的概念但是因為強制信託又屬於民的部分所以我們會傾向把它都列入到相關的風險控管機制裡面那提供給雙方去做彈性調整"},{"start":324.242,"end":345.709,"text":"那因為合建的形態太多包含我們剛剛所講的從早期協議合建到了分屋甚至有分屋還有分售還有投資的分層那這些我們變成說樣態太多但是我們你很難用一個單一的方式去對你很難去單一所以我們會列舉各類型的注意事項然後提供給"},{"start":347.33,"end":362.006,"text":"這個提供給雙方讓他們在這過往當中這樣也能夠保障他們在既有的制度下能夠繼續去推動這樣子好了啦就是說你因為也有很多人提醒就是說你如果用一種定型化契約就要規範所有的樣態他可能會造成溝通上的困難"},{"start":362.686,"end":390.36,"text":"這個本席願意理解但是我們一定要開始討論這個題目這是我們提案的這個初衷我一向都會給行政單位時間我剛剛聽了很多委員也對這個東西有提出想法那署長的回應其實也蠻清楚就是說樣態很多還有待整理那也希望剛剛有回答其他委員也有問一問地方政府的意見那我就乾脆開功課啦核建糾紛的各種樣態各種樣態是什麼你署裡面總要做一個調查吧"},{"start":390.78,"end":406.242,"text":"對不對哪一些是因為資訊不對稱大概大的類別是哪幾種都抵觸了哪些法規你總要做一個完整研究報告我想這第一個功課第二個功課了解一下各地方政府的執行狀況現在台北市新北市有注意事項這個注意事項好不好用"},{"start":406.903,"end":435.629,"text":"有沒有有效的降低核建的糾紛有沒有讓資訊的揭露更加的透明讓雙方在這個資訊不對稱的狀況有沒有改善這我覺得也要有一個完整的說明如果有 其他縣市政府其實應該跟上嘛對不對 因為到處都有督更案慢慢遲早我們要把這個遊戲規則建立好嘛對不對 就這兩個大的功課那這些的報告可以做為未來我們要怎麼來修正法律作為很重要的一個參考來 部長 我要麻煩你一下這你要特別督導因為我覺得這是蠻重要的"},{"start":436.513,"end":452.591,"text":"我們現在這個要立個小軍令狀這其實不用那麼嚴肅但多少時間之內我們國督署可以把這個功課做出來作為我們討論這個法案的參考部長您心裡有沒有數對 報告委員您提的這個修正草案其實我們部裡頭跟署裡頭花很多時間來討論"},{"start":454.273,"end":474.484,"text":"所以我們原則上是希望第一個給我們一點時間跟地方主管機關把所有的樣態以及主管機關他現在有的職權跟我們國土署所授予的職權要能夠弄清楚這是一個那再來就是有關您剛剛所提到的這個都更條例調次的安排是不是放在四條之一啊這個有關合建契約剛剛那個我們署長講得非常清楚必須要再再討論一下講清楚一點那這個部分呢我們"},{"start":481.207,"end":509.201,"text":"第一個就是我不曉得大院有沒有可能開公聽會按照地方政府上面對於都市更新以及剛剛有提到我們未來的發展還包括我們都更跟危老條例要做那個延長或是要做其他的這個更動部分全部包在一起的話我們是樂觀其成那如果沒有的話就是國土署自己來跟地方政府來處理有關於這個尤其是這一條都更條例裡面我們覺得要成就這樣子的法條裡面所欠缺的部分來做補足"},{"start":510.327,"end":522.797,"text":"所以時間 你大概要多少時間去做這個事我們在今年內應該可以完成今年內半年內可以完成我希望啦反正這個會期看起來還要繼續延長啦我就希望"},{"start":523.621,"end":550.748,"text":"早一點有好的消息啦因為我覺得這是民生的事情嘛早一點討論然後也許有一個大家好的平衡我們就早一點讓這樣的新的制度可以上路我覺得這是我的期待好不好 我覺得滿年太久啦我想我也會主動跟地方政府還有相關的公會團體那甚至有一些案例我們也會邀請案例的地主都一起過來大家來表達一些意見那我們把問題都中整清楚三個月啦好不好 三個月"},{"start":551.548,"end":574.502,"text":"或者是你要有隨時報告的這樣子的一個準備啊 對不對了解 我想我們三個月內先完成相關的開會跟意見的收整好 你會後提供一個三個月的時間的時間表啦就是說你可能三個月內不見的會馬上有一個明確的結論但你這三個月你要做什麼嘛 對不對我能夠把研究報告做出來嗎 我能夠統審樣態嗎我能夠跟地方政府開多少次會 排個時間表出來會後來做參考 可以嗎"},{"start":575.683,"end":589.454,"text":"好 那最後我只有一句話提醒你那個老屋延壽的部分補助不是解決根本問題的方法根本問題的方法之前我們在這邊開公聽會有討論其實應該設計公寓大廈的長期修繕計畫這我們後面有時間再來探討好不好 請做好準備 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":453,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時37分）謝謝主席。吳署長有請。"],["主席：請吳署長。"],["吳署長欣修：召委好。"],["牛委員煦庭：署長早安。本席這次有提出都市更新條例增訂條文的提案，都市更新基本上以權利變換的方式為之，但是還是有所謂合建等等的機制，因為都市更新其實是一門非常專業的學識，所以在實務上從事都市更新的過程之中，常常會因為資訊不對稱的問題去衍生很多的糾紛，這樣的糾紛輕則影響單一都市更新的推動；重則被擴散，造成大家整體對於都市更新的不信任，使通案難以推動，我想這件事情是值得大家好好來商討的。現在雖然臺北市政府跟新北市政府有所謂的注意事項，要來調整資訊不對稱的問題，但是強度夠不夠？這是我提出這次法律修正案一個非常重要的原因。我們有參酌消費者保護法跟租賃住宅市場發展及管理條例的規定中定型化契約的概念，這件事情其實就是拋磚引玉，我們希望可以在討論法條的過程之中，凸顯資訊不對稱的問題，而且有一個務實的解決方案，我想這是提案的部分。","我就順著這個話題，今天的質詢就來談這樣的問題。在都更合建契約裡面其實常常出現因為資訊不對稱所造成的一些衝擊，我舉個例子，要合建一定是地主跟想要從事都更的建商一起商量，在商量過程中當然就有權利義務關係，我要出多少地，然後我可以分配回來多少等等。當然這是一個私契的合意行為，剛剛你回應很多委員質詢的時候就講得非常清楚，但在這個私人契約達成的過程之中有可能會出現一些狀況，我就舉例說明，比如有很多合建的都更案，它們會在自己訂定的契約裡面講，地主如果要撤銷都更同意書就要負賠償責任，因為都更案都開始了，頭都洗了。可是其實從都更條例第三十七條來講，除了有特殊的規定可以撤銷之外，其他也有，比如說，所有權人如果在公開展覽計畫所載更新之後，分配的權利價值低於出具同意書者，這就是地主的保障條款，不能說公展之後反而條件變更差，如果條件變更差，就允許地主退出，這其實是對於願意出地的地主的一個保障條款。可是很多地主不見得知道這件事，他不見得了解都更條例第三十七條規定有保障地主的條款，以致於他在跟建商、跟開發商定義都更契約的時候就說，好，我如果撤回同意書要負賠償責任。問題就出現了，如果真的出現這樣狀況的時候，變成他要忍受不平等的待遇，不然就撤銷要負責賠償，法律之間彼此也會出現衝突的情況，這就是我覺得資訊不對稱帶來的問題。","其他相關的樣態還有包含額外的容積獎勵他們自己協議，地主是不能分享的，多賺的都算建商的，或者也禁止地主去找其他的建商洽談，造成所謂不公平的競爭，就類似壟斷的概念，這些都是在目前的機制下，用合意方式處理的時候，相對來講，對於地主出現保障不足、資訊不對稱、造成不公平契約的狀況。請問署長，遇到這些狀況、這些樣態，應該要怎麼辦？如果我們不用定型化契約的方式，有沒有好的方法來處理？請署長回答。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，的確這幾年來這個樣態已經太多樣化。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["吳署長欣修：所以導致很難用公法的定義去把它匡住，匡住的時候有好有壞，壞的時候，雙方協議的內容就不一定能夠成為計畫書的標準，因為我們在相關的權利變換價值上都有固定的計算法，但是合建是允許雙方用協議的方式，這也是為什麼我們在一開始也不太想去推，因為會影響雙方在執行中協議的內容。但是委員所提到的，尤其在地主端比較容易有資訊不對稱，如果回歸到都更條例，他不曉得有哪些法規是他可以受保障且雙方應該要納進去的，這也是為什麼我們在跟各縣市政府討論的時候，大家都傾向去研訂出更多的注意事項，只要有案件在談協議的時候，我們就會主動提供給雙方作為簽訂協議時候的認知；第二個，有所謂的風險控管事項，風險控管事項就會回應到剛剛委員所提到的，過程當中可能因為政策或法規的更動，導致雙方的權利義務關係有可能產生變化，這一些要怎麼去因應？第三個，甚至也有人提到要不要用所謂強制信託的概念，但是因為強制信託又屬於……所以我們會傾向把它都列入到相關的風險控管機制裡面，提供給雙方去做彈性調整。因為合建的型態太多，包含我剛剛所講的，從早期協議合建到分屋、分售，甚至還有投資的分成，變成說樣態太多，但是我們盡可能……"],["牛委員煦庭：你很難用單一的方式去……"],["吳署長欣修：對，所以我們會列舉各類型的注意事項，提供給雙方，讓他們在這過程當中……這樣也可以保障他們在既有的制度下能夠繼續去推動。"],["牛委員煦庭：這樣子好了，也有很多人提醒，如果只用一種定型化契約就要規範所有的樣態，可能會造成溝通上的困難，這個本席願意理解，但是我們一定要開始討論這個題目，這是我們提案的初衷。我一向都會給行政單位時間，我剛剛聽到很多委員也對這個東西有提出想法，署長的回應其實還滿清楚的，就是樣態很多，還有待整理。剛剛你在回答其他委員時也有講，要問一問地方政府的意見。那我就乾脆開功課，合建糾紛的各種樣態是什麼？署裡面總要做一個調查，哪一些是因為資訊不對稱、大概大的類別是哪幾種、都牴觸了哪些法規？你總要做一個完整研究報告，這是第一個功課。第二個功課，了解一下各地方政府的執行狀況，現在臺北市、新北市有注意事項，這個注意事項好不好用、有沒有有效的降低合建的糾紛、有沒有讓資訊的揭露更加透明、雙方資訊不對稱的狀況有沒有改善？這我覺得也要有一個完整的說明，如果有，其他縣市政府應該跟上，因為到處都有都更案，我們遲早要把這個遊戲規則建立好。就這兩個大功課，這些報告可以作為未來我們要怎麼來修這個法律的一個很重要的參考。部長，我要麻煩你一下，你要特別督導，因為我覺得這是滿重要的，我們現在要立個小軍令狀，其實不用那麼嚴肅，在多少時間之內國土署可以把這個功課做出來，作為我們討論這個法案的參考？部長，你心裡有沒有數？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，您提的這個修正草案，其實我們部裡跟署裡都花了很多時間來討論，原則上我們是希望，第一個，給我們一點時間跟地方主管機關去把所有的樣態，以及主管機關現在有的職權跟我們國土署所授予的職權要能夠弄清楚，這是一個。再來，有關您剛剛所提到的，都更條例條次的安排是不是放在第四十四條之一？有關合建契約，剛剛署長講得非常清楚了，必須要再……"],["牛委員煦庭：再討論一下？"],["劉部長世芳：要再講清楚一點，關於這個部分，第一個，我不曉得大院有沒有可能開公聽會？按照地方政府上面，對於都市更新，以及剛剛有提到我們未來的發展，還包括都更跟危老條例要做延長或做其他更動的部分，全部包在一起的話，我們是樂觀其成；如果沒有的話，就是國土署自己跟地方政府來處理，尤其是這一條都更條例裡面，我們覺得要成就這樣子的法條所欠缺的部分來做補足。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以時間上，你大概要多少時間去做這件事？"],["吳署長欣修：我們在今年內應該可以完成。"],["牛委員煦庭：今年內？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：半年內可以完成？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：反正這個會期看起來還要繼續延長，我希望早一點有好的消息，因為我覺得這是民生的事情，早一點討論，也許大家有一個好的平衡，我們就早一點讓這樣的新制度可以上路，這是我的期待，所以我覺得半年太久了。"],["吳署長欣修：我也會主動跟地方政府及相關的工會團體，甚至有一些案例，我們也會邀請案例的地主都一起過來，大家來表達一些意見，我們把問題都綜整清楚就可以……"],["牛委員煦庭：三個月啦，好不好？或者是你要有隨時報告的準備啊！"],["吳署長欣修：了解，我們三個月內先完成相關的開會跟意見的蒐整，這樣可以嗎？"],["牛委員煦庭：好，你會後提供一個三個月的時間表，就是說，你不見得三個月內會馬上有一個明確的結論，但這三個月你要做什麼？我能夠把研究報告做出來嗎、我能夠統整樣態嗎、我能夠跟地方政府開多少次會？排個時間表出來，會後來做參考，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：好，沒問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：最後我只有一句話提醒，老屋延壽的部分，補助不是解決根本問題的方法，解決根本問題的方法，我們之前在這邊開公聽會時有討論過，其實應該設計公寓大廈的長期修繕計畫，這部分我們後面有時間再來探討。"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：請做好準備，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭召委。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭）：下一位請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":46,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-18","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","麥玉珍","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","林俊憲","徐富癸","張雅琳","吳琪銘","王鴻薇","高金素梅","邱鎮軍","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、國家住宅及都市更新中心董事長就「都市更新與危老重建之執行成效及未\n來展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「都市更新條例增訂第四十\n四條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等23人擬具「都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例\n第三條及第十一條條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案綜合詢答並處理法律提案】","agenda_id":"1144701_00001"}}},{"id":"161082","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161082","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c19fee2b99226ebd90cf7df95ebd13a46f97e39277836b040ffa45173602f404955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:29:16 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招租大量的代管業務我那天內政委員會進行考察的時候高雄市督發局也給予很多的這些意見"},{"start":437.796,"end":459.068,"text":"那可能在近期也要邀請花董事長一併的來說明並且對於這些代管業提早的做一些布局 謝謝好 謝謝委員我想高雄煉油總廠 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那我了解 謝謝署長的說明那再來請教一下 也是請署長"},{"start":267.422,"end":282.46,"text":"那署長跟你請教一下因為接下來其實我們高雄啊我們高雄其實做圍牢的比做都更的多很多那當然是條件的不同啦就是我們單元的這種比較多然後也比較便利那大規模都更也"},{"start":283.521,"end":305.63,"text":"確實推動不易所以我在這邊還是想要再請教一下啦就是像這種自辦都更像我們谷山就有一個非常長期無法處理的自辦都更那也是基於這種住戶跟建商之間的資訊不透明或者是彼此的不信任等等的原因到現在也沒有辦法有個好的結果那我們也協調過很多次了那其實很多案例都是類似這樣"},{"start":306.71,"end":330.105,"text":"所以想請署長是針對這樣子的案例到底有沒有比較好的方式可以推進自辦都更的進度呢跟委員報告啦其實就法規上來講其實現在程序是完備的但事實上就會像委員所講的資訊不透明跟建商住戶之間的不信任感往往是這中間比較大的兩個因素"},{"start":330.669,"end":345.75,"text":"所以我們過去都有提供給地方政府類似輔導團跟專案辦公室就是希望除了政府部門以外有其他的單位能夠進入來做一些協助那所以像這一類的案子過去在各地方政府其實都有類似用這樣的機制來處理"},{"start":347.052,"end":363.581,"text":"那不過或許委員這個案子相對可能複雜度更高那所以這個部分我想如果有機會我想我們來了解看看他真正要怎麼樣去介入做一些協助那我們也來指導市府看看市府的以市府的角度跟專案辦公室要怎麼樣來幫忙這些住戶來做溝通"},{"start":365.922,"end":385.755,"text":"好 這個真的要拜託那另外一件事情是這個公辦都更雖然跟國土署沒有什麼關係但是因為這是接下來高雄最大型的都更計畫就是我們高鐵高雄站那接下來會把地下連通道的都納進都更的計畫那周邊包括很多商辦然後一些旅宿還有捷運輕軌都會納進這整個大都更計畫的範圍裡面"},{"start":390.638,"end":406.989,"text":"那當然這主要是台鐵要處理啦包括專事專武的部分那如果接下來有一些包括如果他的一些都計的變更需要單元的需要我們國土署協助的這個也要拜託我們國土署大力來協助好嗎在這邊先拜託都市計畫會送到內政部來的設計主計的話我想我們會全力來協助"},{"start":411.192,"end":416.857,"text":"好太好了謝謝署長因為這會是接下來高雄非常最重點的一個計畫甚至我們卓榮泰院長稱這個會是城市的靈魂高雄城市的靈魂他是這樣子說明的那最後一點時間我們跟署長請教一下就是"},{"start":427.505,"end":455.591,"text":"關於這個都市更新跟氣候變遷的調適因為其實我有看到說當然這個氣候變遷之下我們城市是越來越熱加上都市的熱島效應等等所以其實我有看到德國有一個他們在把這個風浪城市的風浪有納進他們一些城市的規劃裡面那我認為是一個蠻值得參考的尤其是我們現在各縣市尤其是我們南部縣市超級熱那這種在如何不要讓城市裡面的風浪被阻塞"},{"start":456.451,"end":458.492,"text":"我覺得把風狼的規劃納進去是蠻好的一個指標所以是不是如果接下來有一些包括可能容積獎勵的指標啊或者是有什麼一些設計準則裡面也可以把這個城市風狼納進去呢"},{"start":472.269,"end":487.023,"text":"感謝委員 其實城市封廊的這個概念其實在各縣市的都市設計準則裡面通常都會去做考慮但是就是看在實質審議的時候你能怎麼樣去考慮到個案那第二個就是說"},{"start":487.623,"end":512.98,"text":"其實城市風浪的一個氣候模擬那其實部長也非常關心所以也有指示建研所都有進行這一類的研究那我想我們到時候也可以適時的把一些研究的成果來提供給各縣市政府那他們在訂定相關的都市設計準則跟審議規範的時候能夠一併納入我想再把它放到個案的基地去做審議去做協調我想這是我們可以接下來可以努力的"},{"start":513.18,"end":532.853,"text":"是啊 非常好 那除了說給他們參考之外我相信如果有更多的鼓勵措施是更好啦畢竟很多時候如果他們有其他考量的話這一些風狼的洞據之間他們可能就會犧牲掉了或者是就沒有辦法依照來實施對 就是我們會鼓勵更多元的設計方法對 更多元的設計方法來解決它好 謝謝 謝謝署長 謝謝部長謝謝黃絕委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":396,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時20分）謝謝主席。我先請部長。"],["主席：有請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長好。大家都在討論危老條例即將落日的問題，我也看到內政部有先提了一個新的政策，就是關於老屋延壽。雖然老屋延壽是三年50億，可是它的內容大概就是4到6樓比較單元式的，而且大概只有拉皮、拉管這一些比較小型的補助跟處理這些小型的問題。我的問題是接下來危老條例即將落日，就是在2027年5月，我擔心在落日之後，接下來還有什麼新的政策是政府有準備好要端出來的嗎？可不可以先請部長跟大家簡單說明一下接下來長期的策略？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝黃委員。我剛剛在報告的時候，有關都更危老條例即將要落日的部分也提出，包括簡化裡面的審議程序、加快它的速度，也就是都更跟危老不管是公辦或者私人民辦，我們都會繼續來推動。再來就是您剛剛所提到的，目前行政院要求我們把50億的特別預算拿來處理有關老宅延壽的部分，應該是今年年初各界都有反映人老屋老，所以那時候內政部就想要推老宅延壽。因為推老宅延壽本來是放在公務預算裡面，我們也考慮到老宅延壽要不要推出專章，放在都更危老條例裡面。現在行政院覺得我們要加速進行，所以就用三年特別預算的方式，先讓內政部來推動。","目前我們會跟衛福部一起推出類似行政命令或措施的方式來推動這個部分，其中第一個、4到6樓的部分是外觀的安全跟硬體設備。但是大家忘了這裡面最重要的措施，其實也就是我們在社會福利上照顧老人家最重要的，就是個宅裡面的老人家本身需要的無障礙設施，不會只有我們以前所說的電梯或者是無障礙的樓梯間，不是這樣子！包括剛剛所在乎的，譬如電線的維護，甚至燈光、照明，或者是老人家在衛浴避免滑倒的設施，這些我們就必須要跟衛福部一起來處理。也就是說，內政部所處理的是整個外面、耐震一定程度之下，怎麼樣讓老人家在整棟大樓裡面可以安全的活動，但是另外一個，在住宅生活品質上面，能夠讓一般年紀比較大的老人家注意一下，不要跌倒、受傷，或者是受到其他因素，這兩個合在一起。所以行政院認為值得把它放在這次的特別預算來推動，特別預算如果通過的話，其實我們按照現在衛福部的長照計畫跟內政部所提的部分，就可以辦理推動，讓大家一起來申請。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長說明，我認為這是一個非常好的政策，也希望接下來推行可以順利，這個特別預算可以順利通過。","我還是想請教一下，剛剛部長有說，危老條例裡面的時程容積獎勵本來前三年是10%，到現在已經是第八年了，剩下1%，接下來打算繼續延長這個獎勵嗎？是不是請署長補充說明一下。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員。因為我們過去就認為時程獎勵是一個比較像鼓勵性質的空白授權。"],["黃委員捷：對。"],["吳署長欣修：它是應該要結束掉，但是我們同時也看到危老因為當時搶著申請，所以太多小基地提出申請，然後有獎勵，可是在結構上相對比較會讓外界質疑，所以我們很快就提出了規模獎勵，也就是說至少要在60平方公尺以上才能夠來申請，它有一點變成取代時程獎勵。未來在修法裡面，我想這個部分我們也會繼續鼓勵，但是時程獎勵的部分，我們就會直接把它取消。"],["黃委員捷：好，那我了解，謝謝署長說明。","再來也是請教署長，我們高雄其實做危老的比做都更的多很多，當然是條件的不同，就是我們單元的這種比較多，然後也比較便利，大規模都更也確實推動不易，所以我在這邊還是想要再請教一下有關自辦都更。像我們鼓山就有一個非常長期無法處理的自辦都更，也是基於住戶跟建商之間的資訊不透明，或者是彼此不信任等等原因，到現在也沒有辦法有個好的結果，我們也協調過很多次了，其實很多案例都是類似這樣。所以想請問署長，針對這樣子的案例，到底有沒有比較好的方式可以推進自辦都更的進度呢？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，就法規上來講，其實現在程序是完備的，但事實上就會像委員所講的，資訊不透明跟建商、住戶之間的不信任感，往往是這中間比較大的兩個因素，所以我們過去都有提供給地方政府類似輔導團跟專案辦公室，就是希望除了政府部門以外，有其他的單位能夠進入做一些協助，所以像這類案子，過去在各地方政府其實都有用類似這樣的機制處理。不過，或許委員這個案子相對可能複雜度更高，所以這個部分，如果有機會，我想我們來了解看看真正要怎麼樣介入做一些協助。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝署長。"],["吳署長欣修：我們也來指導市府，看看以市府的角度跟專案辦公室要怎麼樣來幫忙這些住戶溝通。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個真的要拜託。另外一件事情是公辦都更雖然跟國土署沒有什麼關係，但是這是接下來高雄最大型的都更計畫，就是高鐵高雄站。接下來會把地下連通道都納進都更計畫，周邊包括很多商辦、一些旅宿，還有捷運、輕軌都會納進這整個大都更計畫的範圍裡面，當然這主要是臺鐵要處理，包括專四、專五的部分，如果接下來有一些包括都計變更、單元需要國土署協助的，也要拜託國土署大力協助，好嗎？在這邊先拜託你們承諾。"],["吳署長欣修：這沒有問題，如果都市計畫送到內政部來的話，我想我們會全力協助。"],["黃委員捷：太好了，謝謝署長。因為這會是接下來高雄最重點的一個計畫，甚至卓榮泰院長稱這個會是城市的靈魂，高雄城市的靈魂，他是這樣子說明的。","最後一點時間，我們跟署長請教一下，關於都市更新跟氣候變遷的調適。在氣候變遷之下城市越來越熱，加上都市的熱島效應等等，我看到德國有把城市的風廊納進一些城市規劃裡面，我認為這滿值得參考的，現在尤其我們南部縣市超級熱，如何不要讓城市裡面的風廊被阻塞，我覺得把風廊的規劃納進去是滿好的一個指標。如果接下來有一些包括容積獎勵的指標或者是一些設計準則，是否也可以把城市風廊納進去呢？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員。其實城市風廊這個概念在各縣市都市設計準則裡面，通常都會去考慮，但就是看實質審議的時候能夠怎麼樣去考慮到個案。第二個，城市風廊的氣候模擬，部長也非常關心，所以也有指示建研所進行這一類的研究。我想我們到時候也可以適時地把一些研究成果提供給各縣市政府，他們在訂定相關都市設計準則跟審議規範的時候能夠一併納入，再把它放到個案的基地去審議、協調，我想這是我們接下來可以再努力的。"],["黃委員捷：是，非常好，除了給他們參考之外，我相信如果有更多鼓勵措施更好，畢竟很多時候如果有其他考量的話，這一些風廊的棟距，它們可能就會犧牲掉了，或者就沒有辦法依照準則施行。"],["吳署長欣修：對，我們會鼓勵更多元的設計方法，以更多元的設計方法來解決它。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝署長、謝謝部長。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員。","下一位請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":46,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-18","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","麥玉珍","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","林俊憲","徐富癸","張雅琳","吳琪銘","王鴻薇","高金素梅","邱鎮軍","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、國家住宅及都市更新中心董事長就「都市更新與危老重建之執行成效及未\n來展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「都市更新條例增訂第四十\n四條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等23人擬具「都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例\n第三條及第十一條條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案綜合詢答並處理法律提案】","agenda_id":"1144701_00001"}}},{"id":"161080","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161080","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c15ee878a53ccfcf5bcf7df95ebd13a46f97e39277836b040f539f966d37fd65f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:09:22 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其實那個加疫區這幾天我們很努力的就是精心跟危老重建啦我們的渡工的案件跟危老的案件 全國都差不多百千名所以新清隆都算不錯我們過去有補助這個企護 剩下這個專案辦公室"},{"start":234.961,"end":241.326,"text":"所以在這個專業辦公室的合作之下 其實案件推動性不錯未來在做這個勞財延遲的部分 我們就要一樣在地方把這個專業團體跟企護構作會 用一個副德團就是說民眾家屬有沒了解的 還是有想要申請的我們會先透過這個副德團 過合作過去看 看他要怎麼去處理這個事情"},{"start":257.677,"end":263.021,"text":"未來這個制度上 我想我們可以透過這個福德團 給他們歡迎有一些制度上我們可以做一些修正的 我們要來修正總之我們希望我們這個市長在住在家裡他不用說我一定要搬去北部住我在這裡把家裡整理好 無障礙空間 安全的設施做好他就可以在這裡安心繼續住我想這是這個政策最大的目的 我一定會向這個"},{"start":283.254,"end":287.856,"text":"因為 我想我們中央可以想出這個方法可能跟地方的政府都差不多有這個想法因為老廚的時候 他的電費算 都那麼高啊有時候我們燒炸燈的時候 那個老廚的時候 不是說這樣燒而已有時候整排都燒而已 跟你有錢也買不到 才會老廚所以說 我也"},{"start":312.91,"end":314.05,"text":"我們這個小細節這個問題,我們要看過後,做好後因為署長我也知道你很用心的,為這個區塊,給我們補充的感受,但是我覺得"},{"start":328.935,"end":335.758,"text":"一定要便民的啊 剛才聽你這樣說應該是越便民越多 要去請感恩感謝我們地方政府的投協助我們才有那個申告出來啦本席再跟你談到一個土耕條例的問題在九年到尾的時候 我們在修改的時候本席有提一個"},{"start":356.932,"end":362.533,"text":"附帶結議的問題,說我們都跟農基地過大的時候,就對社區的回饋,但是署長,在正當的狗尾,會附帶結議,我要請問,到現在你們辦到哪裡來?"},{"start":377.717,"end":382.939,"text":"跟委員報告啦 其實那個休館這個榮獎的這個回饋啦榮獎的回饋 我想這個補分我們目前已經有在檢討那第二 也已經有跟這個院裡面跟行政院裡面有做一些報告因為包括說 尤其大規模的這個渡工榮獎過去都用"},{"start":400.106,"end":418.944,"text":"有的甚至用交集的,有的去做一些其他的,他對社區、對地方沒有太多的幫助所以未來如果可以因為都更的引進,尤其重大的建設、重大都更的案子如果類似能夠引進社宅,來回饋地方,給一些地方可以照顧更多需要的人"},{"start":419.548,"end":425.973,"text":"或是說它還可以做更多的社福設施,這部分我們已經有在研議這個方案有啦齁,我們不要等了一等多,一等多這樣就不好了有啦,我那個設施的部分已經有先預告了,有先預告了我相信後期還有需要檢討,我們還會繼續"},{"start":442.987,"end":449.329,"text":"因為署長這個 我覺得對主委也好對這個健身要去的也好因為大家互相可以相迎對不然你跟他說 你給健身有農基率 跟你沒有回饋白痴也會覺得跟你怎麼做這麼奇怪在這個過程中 我們也署長這件事要要求不是說有得做有得做"},{"start":471.218,"end":476.18,"text":"來這裡補充 委員你所關心這個都更榮獎的部分我們已經完成預告完成預告 現在法規程序走完了以後就可以對外公告實施這樣很好很好 因為 詳細的日程再跟委員來補充這樣感謝補充在這裡我還有一個問題就是跟市長談到的就是危老的條例在這個規定當中"},{"start":499.029,"end":502.832,"text":"我們在186年實施的 要實施10年 現在剩2年 在這2年到目前 我們的規約 你們有可能再延長嗎"},{"start":515.964,"end":520.485,"text":"感謝 因為其實我們地方國家都有希望這個危老條例再來延長 主要是程序減變小規模的基地 不用到都更那麼大範圍 小規模的基地也會走進所以我們目前已經有在研議車案"},{"start":533.929,"end":538.632,"text":"要延長 第二就是中壢保安也是維持我們基準的規模獎勵 給繼續希望大家去整併出來 圍牢也不能太小檔 稍微多給加進去把社區的經關改造得更好"},{"start":550.939,"end":553.541,"text":"因為署長本身會跟你談到這個圍牢的條例是不是可以再延長因為我覺得在申請的當中你會看到出來圍牢的申請有65件"},{"start":566.929,"end":569.231,"text":"剛才才申請兩件啦,所以說這個維吾爾維新,對北省也願意去參與,電商也願意去做所以我覺得說,不要逗留他人的時候,我覺得有需要扁平,有需要延長"},{"start":588.411,"end":591.993,"text":"我們要延長 因為當時是本市經常跟你探討的時候你就說 維繞這個問題是非常重要所以 大家願意朝這個方向去做所以說兩黨很快也黏在一起所以署長跟部長 我們要先研議開 不能時間久了"},{"start":613.926,"end":617.168,"text":"要跟委員說,只有這麼多人想要請,但是我們沒有時間做報告的時候,這樣就不好所以本席跟你談到這裡的問題,你要去研議一下,因為我覺得時間很快你看過八天了,春兩天而已,要好好去做,跟自己的建設拜託繼續再合作,以上感謝委員,謝謝"},{"start":643.732,"end":644.868,"text":"好 沒問題"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":369,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時9分）主席，請部長。等一下，讓部長喝個茶，沒關係！部長喝個茶。"],["主席：劉部長有請、署長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：部長，在今天我們討論的議題當中，全國有500萬戶的老宅差不多都是30年以上，占了一半，尤其嘉義市一向被稱為木都，木都就是代表它的老宅比較多。在這個過程當中，嘉義房子的平均年齡是35歲，全國平均則是33歲，由此可見，嘉義市30年以上的老宅就占了62%，全國才百分之五十五點多。當然在這個過程當中，部長和署長也很用心，準備要推出老宅延壽計畫，預計匡列3年50億的預算。不過我要跟部長跟署長說的是，老宅最重要的問題是安全、防震、漏水，因為它的結構比較老，問題也會比較多，所以有需要改善。因此，本席也提醒這些種種的問題不要疏忽了，我覺得既然你們用心要把這些老宅延壽，讓它可以「呷百二」，要把老宅再造，讓民眾可以維持住的安全，那這些我們都要考慮進去。尤其住在嘉義市的大多是年紀較大的，有的子孫都在外面工作，既然你們有心要做這件事情，要讓這些老宅可以再生存下去，你們補助的時候，它的規劃、它的申請就要再簡單一點。因為有時候民眾在辦的時候，你叫人家東奔西跑，一下子申請這個，一下子申請那個，這樣枉費你們的美意，也枉費你們的用心。所以署長和部長，說起來這個很不簡單，像嘉義市，你如果有經過甚至進去嘉義市看過，木都的稱號是非常不簡單的，所以如果你們能多協助嘉義市的這些老宅，相信我們的環境應該會更好，是不是？你來報告一下。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，確實嘉義市這幾年很努力在都市更新跟危老重建，都更跟危老案件在全國都差不多排前十名，所以申請量都算不錯。我們過去也有補助市府成立專案辦公室，在專案辦公室的協助之下，其實案件推動得算不錯，未來做老宅延壽，我們也一樣會在地方把專業團體跟市府結合在一起，成立一個輔導團。也就是民眾如果有不了解的，還是有想要申請的，我們會先透過這個輔導團協助，看要怎麼處理這些事情。我相信未來也會透過這個輔導團跟我們反映，如果制度可以做一些修正，我們也會來修正。總之，我們希望這些長輩可以住在自己的房子，不用一定要搬去別的地方住，把房子整理好、無障礙空間、安全設施做好，他們就可以在原地安心繼續住，我想這是這個政策最大的目的，我們一定會往這個方向去打拚。"],["王委員美惠：中央可以想出這個方法，地方政府可能也有這種想法，因為老房子的電線都那麼舊了，如果電線走火，不只是老房子本身燒掉而已，有時候是整排都會被燒掉。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["王委員美惠：就算有錢也買不回這些老房子，所以希望這些小細節、這些問題你們要看顧好、做好，雖然我也知道署長為了這個區塊很用心，又有部長在監督，不過我覺得一定要便民。剛才聽你這樣說，應該是越來越便民、越來越多人要去申請，也感謝地方政府協助，才能有這樣的成果。","本席再與你探討一個都更條例的問題，去年9月修法的時候，本席有提一個附帶決議，提到如果都更容積率到多高的程度就會對那個社區回饋。請問去年9月的附帶決議，到現在你們辦得怎麼樣？"],["吳署長欣修：有關容獎的回饋，這個部分我們目前已經有在檢討。第二、也已經有跟行政院做一些報告。尤其是大規模的都更容獎，過去有的甚至用繳錢的，有的則去做一些其他的，其實對社區、地方都沒有實際的幫助。如果未來能因為都更引進，尤其是重大都更案能夠引進類似社宅來回饋地方，讓地方可以照顧更多需要的人，或是還可以做更多的社福設施，這個部分我們已經有在研議方案。"],["王委員美惠：有嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：有。"],["王委員美惠：不要等了又等、期待再期待，又過了半年、一年，這樣就不好了！"],["吳署長欣修：社宅的部分已經有先預告，後續還有需要檢討的部分，我們還會繼續。"],["王委員美惠：因為我覺得這個對住戶也好，對這些要去興建的建商也好，大家互惠互利才可以雙贏。不然讓建商有容積率卻沒回饋，百姓會覺得你的政策怎麼做得這麼奇怪。在這個過程中，我希望署長要注意這件事情，而不是有在做就好。請部長答復。"],["劉部長世芳：委員所關心的都更容獎，我們已經完成子法預告，現在等法規程序走完了以後，就可以對外公告實施。"],["王委員美惠：這樣很好！"],["劉部長世芳：詳細日程再跟委員補充。"],["王委員美惠：感謝部長。我在這裡還有一個問題要跟署長探討，就是危老條例。在這個過程當中，我們從106年起實施，要實施十年，現在只剩兩年，目前你們有可能規劃延長嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝。地方各界確實都希望危老條例再延長，主要是它的程序簡便，因為不用到都更那麼大的範圍，所以小規模的基地也可以做，目前我們已經有在研議要延長的草案。第二、獎勵的部分也盡量維持現在的規模獎勵，讓它繼續，希望大家整併出來的危老範圍不要太小，讓比較多戶加入，把城市景觀改造得好一點。"],["王委員美惠：本席會跟你探討危老條例是不是可以再延長，是因為從申請過程的當中看得出來，危老申請有65件，都更申請才2件，所以百姓願意參與危老，建商也願意去做，雖然不可以圖利他人，但有需要便民就要延長。本席上次跟你探討的時候，你就說危老這個問題非常重要，大家也願意朝這個方向去做。而兩年很快就馬上到了，你們要先研議，不要最後時間到了才驚覺怎麼有這麼多人想要申請，時間卻沒有延長、不夠，這樣就不好！本席跟你探討的這些問題，你們要去研議一下，因為我覺得時間很快，你看過了八年，剩兩年而已，要好好去做。"],["吳署長欣修：沒問題。"],["王委員美惠：拜託繼續協助嘉義的建設。"],["吳署長欣修：是，感謝委員。"],["王委員美惠：主席，抱歉！"],["主席：沒關係。謝謝王美惠委員。","下一位請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":46,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-18","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","麥玉珍","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","林俊憲","徐富癸","張雅琳","吳琪銘","王鴻薇","高金素梅","邱鎮軍","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、國家住宅及都市更新中心董事長就「都市更新與危老重建之執行成效及未\n來展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「都市更新條例增訂第四十\n四條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等23人擬具「都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例\n第三條及第十一條條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案綜合詢答並處理法律提案】","agenda_id":"1144701_00001"}}},{"id":"161079","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161079","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c100946fd1de07d270d3023b910515704e97e39277836b040f4ac9ba3278b278f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"11:19:10 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謝謝那在接下來請問次長我們現在的外交理念是不是已經從過去最被批評的金錢外交已經把它轉成了價值外交了呢"},{"start":188.086,"end":209.144,"text":"報告委員我們中華民國的外交一直不是用金錢為重心我們對於理念價值那麼尊重中華民國的自由民主我想這才是最重要的現在來說的話我們的這個部長林部長現在有三條鏈第一個是說這個民主價值鏈第二個是所謂的這個第一島"},{"start":210.805,"end":225.025,"text":"第一島鏈這個所謂的地緣政治上面的重要性第三個很重要的是我們的在整個全球的這個供應鏈上面的關鍵位置那我們透過這三條鏈三鏈能夠推動我們外交的工作"},{"start":225.97,"end":242.264,"text":"那我想請問一下就是說在太平洋地區現在仍然與台灣維持外交關係的國家有哪幾個國家南泰有三個國家 帛琉 這個馬紹爾群島以及這個土瓦魯他們各維持了多少年呢具體的來我們請我們的亞太司的司長回答"},{"start":248.594,"end":267.345,"text":"跟委員報告一下那個馬紹爾是進入26年那那個柏流是25年然後那個土瓦魯是46年所以本席相信我們的雙方其實都能建交維持到25年其實那麼多年的感情應該都是真心的吧是"},{"start":269.025,"end":287.755,"text":"所以我再請問次長我們台灣是不是也有屬於藍島語族的26也是屬於藍島語族的26個國家之一嘛對不對雖然我今天有看到今天的報告發現外交部的確做了不少的努力但還是希望外交部還是可以再做更多的交流還有互動因為來深化我們台灣跟藍島語族國家的文化上面的連結"},{"start":294.159,"end":311.469,"text":"是那就好像剛才那個包括昭緯包括其他的委員也提到我們想說外交部會跟原民會一起配合在這個經費上面在努力上面一起的這個合作能夠這個透展我們的原民外交這也是我們的這個部長他的總和外交裡面重要的部分"},{"start":312.239,"end":316.26,"text":"因為去年2024年的時候舉辦的第53屆太平洋島國的論壇所以聽說它這裡面有包含澳洲和紐西蘭在內的國家都很肯定我們台灣的貢獻還有參與而且非常的支持我們台灣在PIF的參與的地位還有去年7月12號和9月10號本席在立法院有陪同韓院長分別接待了"},{"start":336.944,"end":338.826,"text":"那個馬紹爾群島共和國的國會的議長還有土瓦魯的議長對他們長期支持台灣在太平洋島國的論壇的國際參與甚至聯合國有些WHA等國際場合為我國來發聲我們都是"},{"start":353.181,"end":358.924,"text":"給他給予以後特別的感謝所以次長本席非常的希望以後外交部邀請外賓來訪時尤其是和我們台灣原住民語言相近的南島語族的國家我們可以在國內參訪那時候同時除了接待他們享用我們台灣的美食之外"},{"start":371.949,"end":376.672,"text":"更有機會可以帶著這些外賓到花蓮台東觀光舉辦更多的交流活動因為這樣可以趁機做好的國際外交也因為這樣也可以在我們花東地區因為0403的地震過後的經濟重新振興還有帶動整個景氣此外我也發現我們和這個南島語族的土蛙魯國的雙方的情誼可能不限在此還有更緊密的關係喔"},{"start":398.286,"end":401.949,"text":"因為吐瓦魯的主要的語言是吐瓦魯語但是好像跟我們台灣幾個原住民族像魯凱族、卑蘭族所用的母語有比較接近還有卑蘭族這些大部分都是在台東還有魯凱族有些有分布在台東的嘉蘭村還有卑蘭村、卑蘭鄉這樣這是本席住的花東的地區我想也是我們昭緯黃人委員居住的地方"},{"start":423.324,"end":430.308,"text":"和選區所以你知道去年的時候土瓦魯的和馬紹爾群島的議長來國會拜訪的時候他們非常的熱情的邀請我們院長還有邀請我們台灣的立委能夠有機會可以去他們國家進行一些交流這樣所以我想說我們已經跟他們維持那麼多年的友邦是不是應該再積極交流更多的深化的關係呢是"},{"start":448.738,"end":450.54,"text":"那本席想要建議一下請外交部可以安排國會外交到土瓦魯還是馬紹爾群島還是這些藍島語族的國家進行國會外交否則每次都是對方非常熱情的來台結果我們自己的國會都無動於衷"},{"start":463.575,"end":466.276,"text":"這樣是非常沒有禮貌的啦其實有時候是要禮尚往來嘛不然我們會非常的失禮啦還是請我們的原住民委員黃仁昭委主動安排一下考察到那個國家去我們可以進行一些交流不論是文化方面"},{"start":481.044,"end":510.51,"text":"語言方面還是醫療交流方面畢竟我們台灣的醫療那麼先進其實也是有機會進行一些國會上面的交流看看他們國家是不是需要台灣進一步的協助還是合作的地方讓雙方的友情更加堅定不移畢竟我們台灣現在應該沒有任何斷交的本錢了所以可以沒有辦法再繼續有人跟我們斷交了所以我們也不能有這種邦交國有分手的意外所以我們也更需要在這方面做更大的努力"},{"start":511.294,"end":531.981,"text":"我們外交部主動規劃積極配合如果說大院決定是說要去這些我們南泰的友邦來訪視的話我們一定會全力的配合做好規劃那麼讓雙方的這個交流達到更加有意義那也提升雙方的邦誼到更高的一個層次這我們絕對要一起來努力謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":594,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（11時19分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["陳次長明祺：委員好。"],["林委員憶君：次長好。教宗方濟各安息主懷之後，教廷預計今天開始繼任教宗的選舉會議。"],["陳次長明祺：是，書面會議。"],["林委員憶君：據了解，因為教宗的選舉會議大部分都是高度的秘密會議，所以一般外界不太有機會掌握整個事前的情資，知道繼任的教宗是誰，但是目前全世界的主流媒體已經整理出9位繼任人選，請次長看一下，目前外交部有沒有預測可能會是哪一個人選比較有可能成為下一任教宗的繼任人選呢？"],["陳次長明祺：報告委員，沒有欸！我們對於教宗的繼任人選不做任何的猜測，我們重點在於，第一個，能夠繼續的傳達我國是一個重視宗教自由的國家；第二個，我們也有相當顯著的天主教信徒需要牧羊；第三個，我們跟教廷維持良好的關係，我們對於個別的人選沒有什麼猜測，也沒有特別要去影響的。"],["林委員憶君：好，畢竟教廷是我們臺灣現在在歐洲唯一的邦交國，也是臺灣現在僅存有邦交的12個國家之一，但是因為中國的因素，所以未來繼任教宗會不會有轉變，影響到教廷未來的兩岸政策，進而影響到我們臺灣和教廷的關係，所以請次長一定要密切注意這些，千萬不要因為教宗換人了，到時候我們兩國的邦交又出了問題。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["林委員憶君：還有，本席期許外交部可以風光的成為一個為臺灣增加邦交國的建交部，千萬不要跟前部長吳釗燮一樣，被共諜滲透，讓外交部變成了斷交部，可以嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：當然，現在在林部長的帶領之下，我們在三個面向上面繼續努力，第一個，固邦、榮邦、拓邦，第三個的拓邦就是希望能夠開拓更多我們的國際友人，讓大家能夠認同臺灣民主自由的理念。也跟委員報告，在這上面我們盡了所有的努力，希望很快能夠有好的消息，但是也請委員了解，這是一個不是很容易的過程，尤其是中國在全世界所有可能的場合都在打壓臺灣，我們駐外的工作人員非常的辛苦也非常的努力，但是我們會全面的加把勁，希望能夠早日帶給國人同胞好的消息。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。","接下來請問次長，我們現在的外交理念是不是從過去最被批評的金錢外交，已經把它轉成價值外交了呢？"],["陳次長明祺：報告委員，我們中華民國的外交一直都不是以金錢為重心，我們對於理念、價值相同且尊重中華民國的自由民主，我想這才是最重要的。","以現在來說，我們的林部長現在有所謂的三條鏈，第一個是民主價值鏈；第二個是所謂的第一島鏈，所謂的地緣政治上面的重要性；第三個，很重要的是我們在整個全球供應鏈上面的關鍵位置，我們透過這三條鏈、三鏈來推動我們外交的工作。"],["林委員憶君：我想請問一下，在太平洋地區現在仍然與臺灣維持外交關係的國家有哪幾個？"],["陳次長明祺：南太有3個國家，帛琉、馬紹爾群島以及吐瓦魯。"],["林委員憶君：跟他們各維持了多少年的邦交呢？"],["陳次長明祺：我請我們亞太司司長回答。"],["藍司長夏禮：跟委員報告一下，馬紹爾是進入第26年；帛琉是25年；吐瓦魯是46年。"],["林委員憶君：所以本席相信，我們雙方建交能維持到25年，其實那麼多年的感情，應該都是真心的吧？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["林委員憶君：所以我再請問次長，我們臺灣是不是也是屬於南島語族的26個國家之一？"],["陳次長明祺：對。"],["林委員憶君：我有看到今天的報告，發現了外交部的確做了不少的努力，但還是希望外交部可以再做更多的交流及互動，以深化臺灣跟南島語族國家在文化上面的連結。"],["陳次長明祺：是，剛才召委與其他委員也提到，外交部會跟原民會一起配合，在整個經費上面、努力上面一起合作，能夠拓展我們的原民外交，這也是部長的總合外交裡面重要的部分。"],["林委員憶君：好，去年（2024年）的時候舉辦的第53屆太平洋島國論壇，聽說這裡面有包含澳洲和紐西蘭在內的國家都很肯定臺灣的貢獻與參與，而且非常支持臺灣在PIF的參與地位。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["林委員憶君：去年7月12號和9月10號，本席在立法院陪同韓院長分別接待了馬紹爾群島共和國的國會議長及吐瓦魯的議長，對於他們長期支持臺灣在太平洋島國論壇的國際參與，甚至在聯合國、WHA等國際場合為我國發聲，我們都對他們給予特別的感謝。次長，本席非常希望以後外交部邀請外賓來訪時，尤其是與臺灣原住民語言相近的南島語族國家，我們可以在國內參訪，那時除了接待他們享用臺灣的美食之外，同時更有機會可以帶著這些外賓到花蓮、臺東觀光，舉辦更多的交流活動，這樣可以趁機做好國際外交，也可以為花東地區在0403地震過後的經濟重新振興及帶動整個景氣。","此外，我也發現我們和南島語族吐瓦魯的雙方情誼可能不限於此，還有更緊密的關係，吐瓦魯的主要語言是吐瓦魯語，但好像跟臺灣幾個原住民族，像魯凱族、卑南族所用的母語比較接近，卑南族大部分都是在臺東，魯凱族有些分布在臺東的嘉蘭村及卑南鄉，就是在本席住的花東地區，也是黃仁召委居住的地方及選區。去年吐瓦魯和馬紹爾群島議長來國會拜訪的時候，他們非常熱情地邀請院長及臺灣的立委有機會能夠去他們國家進行一些交流，我想我們已經跟他們維持那麼多年的友邦，是不是應該再積極交流，有更多的深化關係呢？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["林委員憶君：本席想要建議一下，請外交部可以安排國會外交到吐瓦魯或是馬紹爾群島，又或是跟這些南島語族國家進行國會外交，否則每次都是對方非常熱情地來臺，結果我們自己的國會都無動於衷，這樣是非常沒有禮貌的，其實有時候是要禮尚往來，不然我們會非常地失禮。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["林委員憶君：或是請原住民委員的黃仁召委主動安排一下考察，到這些國家我們可以進行一些交流，不論是文化方面、語言方面或是醫療方面的交流，畢竟臺灣的醫療那麼先進，其實也是有機會進行一些國會上面的交流，看看他們國家是不是需要臺灣進一步的協助或是合作的地方，讓雙方的友情更加堅定不移，畢竟臺灣現在應該沒有任何斷交的本錢，沒有辦法再繼續有人跟我們斷交了，所以我們也不能有這種與邦交國分手的意外，我們更需要在這方面做更大的努力。"],["陳次長明祺：當然，外交部主動規劃、積極配合，如果大院決定要去這些南太的友邦訪視，我們一定會全力配合，做好規劃，讓雙方的交流達到更加有意義，也提升雙方的邦誼到更高的層次，這我們絕對一起來努力，謝謝。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林憶君委員質詢。","現在蔡易餘委員在現場，我們援例給3分鐘的質詢時間，請蔡易餘委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-12","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","馬文君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra 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甚至有人提到說50幾塊所以剛剛那個委員就說建議我們就是說這個星星之火啊 也應該要趕快撲滅那這個當然就是說 我們認為就是說這怎麼有可能 怎麼有可能到那個總統剛剛講好像當時候央行有點輕忽了這種星星之火可以燎原的趨勢"},{"start":211.641,"end":227.315,"text":"當然啦 不過我們也是有私下跟這些評論員接觸啦希望他們不要這樣子啦但是已經造成了這個效果啦最後升到29.5%左右啊所以呢 也就是說 我說我們也會記取教訓啦對於這個新興之火 我們也必須要立即的做"},{"start":235.982,"end":253.273,"text":"我覺得這個教訓真的要繼續啦是是是因為接下來我又看到說這個包含這個國民黨的主席啊他講說這個接下來不是只有關稅戰是貨幣戰然後又講說那接下來呢可能在本週或是下週呢"},{"start":254.554,"end":268.472,"text":"這個我們就會接到美國財政部的匯率報告他說台灣一定會被列明為觀察名單而且是嚴重的觀察名單所以我是不曉得誰在講這個因為今天那這次我就是要主要讓總裁要注意對對對好那我也剛剛我也藉這個機會也在澄清"},{"start":272.617,"end":293.752,"text":"所以我想委員給我讓我有這個機會再來重申就是說因為我們也有這個教訓所以你讓我有這個時間來說明第一個就是說嚴重的我不曉得是誰因為今天早上我很匆匆忙忙因為要來趕趕是誰不管我就說事實上絕對沒有所謂的嚴重的操縱匯率"},{"start":303.01,"end":309.478,"text":"後來好像我看了那個小標題呢它是大標題是嚴重的匯率超重但是呢它的小標題裡面呢是講就是說嚴重的匯率的觀察列為嚴重的觀察名單但是沒有這回事啦"},{"start":321.231,"end":342.422,"text":"不會有這回事我敢這樣的澄清這是第一點第二點就是說又有市場的人士就說六月的時候會有美債的危機所以我就說我必須要我剛剛的另外一個說明"},{"start":344.643,"end":359.629,"text":"5月1號5月2號5月5號我們說的都事實事實上呢這個海湖的那個莊園的那個協定根本就是到目前為止都沒有這個我知道那個央行新聞稿都有寫但是我就是要提醒總裁要注意"},{"start":360.629,"end":378.642,"text":"就是說台幣的升值它其實也有脈絡可循你剛剛講說4月8號之後那不斷在市場就有人放出這個消息面出來那現在包含這一個連在野黨的黨主席都出來講說接下來就是貨幣戰了接下來台灣就會被列為這間政府觀察名單的這個要注意啊"},{"start":379.842,"end":381.883,"text":"所以我也非常謝謝財委會今天安排這個議題讓我們來報告但是裡面雖然是主權基金的一個議題但是"},{"start":394.787,"end":423.056,"text":"很大部分的委員都是對這個匯率有一些的關心那我覺得我也非常感謝就是說財委給我們這個機會除了我們在5月5號的時候那個記者會我們來澄清事實上這一次也是很好的機會讓我們再次的澄清那我請教一下總裁那您認為說這一個台幣的合理匯率大概是"},{"start":423.576,"end":451.093,"text":"所以我還是對這個來講的話我不能抱名牌啊事實上那個名牌不是名牌所以我就說事實上匯率是供需來決定的它有上有下你現在就是說是在升但是有一天有一天它會扁啊對不對所以不要就是說它會升到什麼樣才是合理的Who knows誰曉得"},{"start":452.035,"end":452.898,"text":"但是我要強調的就是說"},{"start":455.54,"end":485.283,"text":"本波的新台幣的升值的規理性的預期心理到目前呢是so far so good已經就把那個負的能量已經釋放出來so far so good就對了就是可以控制掌握就對了應該是我們的調解呢已經就是說幾乎是供需是平衡了所以我們調解呢就不像前幾天這樣的那麼的辛苦所以呢我想呢我們在這邊再做一次澄清我是覺得是非常好的"},{"start":485.743,"end":510.686,"text":"那我再問一下主權基金那那個卓院長他是比較積極的態度在推動這個主權基金那我也看到這一個央行的報告那我想請教一下那央行也是認為說是可以設主權基金但是要用專法的方式來做處理就對了那您認為說主權基金規模大概要多大這個所以我就說嘛我還是覺得就是說"},{"start":511.667,"end":533.902,"text":"要設立主權基金這個是我們政府必須要他做的決定中央銀行應該就說市場很多都說以前都是中央銀行反對啦所以才沒辦法成立主權基金說實在不對我看你們是支持的嘛對啊但是就是設專法嘛而且不要動到外匯嘛對不對我們就說外匯"},{"start":541.747,"end":567.523,"text":"不能無償的撥用我們只是強調這裡所以也就是說成立主權基金這個是政府的事政府呢應該要怎麼來研議那至於我們中央銀行呢我們也不便在這邊說它的規模要多少啊那你要怎麼樣怎麼樣我覺得那個涉及到說它的這個主權基金的這個基金的來源啊是是是那我們有提到就是說不是跟財政部有相關的嗎發債撥款"},{"start":569.304,"end":580.53,"text":"然後出資這都是跟財政部相關的啦那除了這個財政部之外那其他委員有提到說譬如說四大基金有提到國發基金那他們適合投資嗎所以國發基金有他們的立場"},{"start":584.892,"end":613.083,"text":"他的意見他真正的意見是怎麼樣他們也要必須要再嚴厲那至於四大基金他們態度是如何他們自己也要就是說因應如果說政府要成立主權基金的時候他們要如何來協助假設說政府是這樣但是呢決定都是由他們的中央銀行不能就說他一定要加入中央銀行沒有這個權利確實都沒有這個權利好那我最後一點時間就請這個國發會的這個副主委好了"},{"start":613.723,"end":632.694,"text":"因為我剛剛聽很多的委員都有問到相關的問題總裁先請回好了那國發會對於這個設立主權基建的態度是怎麼樣我想剛剛總裁也說明了我們建議還是用專法的方式來做那基金的來源呢"},{"start":633.38,"end":654.865,"text":"資金的來源齊總才有講到可以用發債的方式用發債的方式所以國發委認為說用發債的方式是一個做的是國瀑布其實有因為到時候會成立一個專案小組我們會就資金來源的投措的方式還有資金的金額等等我們會進行相關的討論那不建議動用到目前的四大基金就對了"},{"start":658.058,"end":665.763,"text":"就是如果發債的話,有可能市場基金也可以購買債券還有很多方式可以來運用"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":780,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時11分）謝謝主席，我們先讓總裁先喝口水，可以嗎？好，那就請總裁。"],["主席：請總裁。"],["李委員坤城：喝完水就可以上來了。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員早。"],["李委員坤城：總裁好，辛苦了！"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：當然大家都很關心最近臺幣升值的問題，剛剛很多委員也都有在問了，也因為波動比較大、升值的力道比較大，所以在5月5號的時候，包含總統跟總裁都有出來講話，總統是用錄影的方式，那總裁是親自召開記者會，我看到總統有特別提到說，第一個，它可能是市場預期的心理；第二個，可能是不實的訊息企圖來操縱市場。我想先請教一下總裁，總統所說的市場預期心理是指什麼？預期臺幣會升值？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！所以我們在5月5號的新聞稿裡面的第六點就講得很清楚，我們籲請市場評論人員切勿以臆測的方式評論國內匯市相關議題，避免影響國內匯市的秩序及穩定，這會波及到……"],["李委員坤城：我有看到央行的新聞稿。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，所以我們裡面是寫得稍微比較溫和一點，事實上，我們也希望他們節制，不要導致市場非理性的預期，非理性的預期會導致兩個現象，第一個現象就是市場秩序會亂掉，第二個會不穩定，波及到我們的經濟層面，讓中央銀行維持市場秩序的職責變得更困難，這是第一點。第二點，我們也呼籲我們的廠商也不必要太聽信這些市場謠言，如果這樣的話，你一直拋拋拋，中央銀行也是盡我們職責，我們要來調節，但是因為他的預期心理太強了，所以我們也呼籲我們的廠商也要注意，你如果一直在拋拋拋的時候，到最後你也會傷到你自己。"],["李委員坤城：我問一下總裁，大概哪時候開始觀察到臺幣升值的力道開始逐漸加強？"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上，4月30號左右大概就……"],["李委員坤城：可是大概……"],["楊總裁金龍：所以剛剛有一個委員，我覺得他的建議也很好啦！醞釀新臺幣升值的預期，事實上在4月中，即在4月8號以後，就是在川普的那個4月2號以後，大概就慢慢地、慢慢地形成，你看看評論員就說匯率到哪裡，要用大麥克指數啦、什麼的，所以那時候就開始……"],["李委員坤城：我覺得央行那時候就應該……"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對，所以那個時候就開始在醞釀了。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！那時候就開始在講臺幣會不斷地升值，甚至有人提到什麼十幾塊……"],["楊總裁金龍：所以剛剛那個委員建議我們，對此星星之火應該要趕快撲滅，當然我們認為這怎麼有可能到那個，所以我們只是……"],["李委員坤城：總裁這樣講，好像當時候央行有點輕忽了星星之火可以燎原的趨勢啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：當然啦！不過，我們也有私下跟這些評論員接觸，希望他們不要這樣子……"],["李委員坤城：但是已經造成了這個效果啦！最後升到29.5左右啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是！我說我們也會記取教訓啦！對於這個星星之火，我們也必須要立即做一些澄清。"],["李委員坤城：我覺得這個教訓真的要記取啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是！"],["李委員坤城：因為接下來我看到包含國民黨的主席，他講接下來不是只有關稅戰，是貨幣戰，然後又講接下來可能在本週或是下週，我們就會接到美國財政部的匯率報告，他說臺灣一定會被列名為觀察名單，而且是嚴重的觀察名單。"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦，我是不曉得誰在講這個啦，因為今天……"],["李委員坤城：但我覺得總裁就是要處理！"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對！好，剛剛我藉這個機會也再澄清了，所以我想委員也讓我有這個機會再來重申，因為我們也有這個教訓嘛，所以你讓我有這個時間來說明，第一個，我不曉得是誰，因為今天早上我很匆匆忙忙，因為要趕著來會議，不管是誰……"],["李委員坤城：沒有，我就是說國民黨黨主席欸！"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上，我就說絕對沒有所謂的嚴重的操縱匯率，後來好像我看了那個小標題，它的大標題是嚴重的匯率操縱，但它的小標題裡面是講嚴重的匯率觀察……"],["李委員坤城：他說會被列為嚴重的觀察名單。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！嚴重的觀察名單，但是沒有這回事，不會有這回事。"],["李委員坤城：不會有這回事？但是類似這一種……"],["楊總裁金龍：不會有這回事。我敢這樣澄清，這是第一點；第二點，又有市場人士說6月的時候會有美債的危機。"],["李委員坤城：對！"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛另外一個說明，5月1號、5月2號、5月5號我們說的都是事實，事實上，海湖莊園協定根本到目前為止都沒有這個……"],["李委員坤城：我知道，央行的新聞稿都有寫。"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對！"],["李委員坤城：但我就是要提醒總裁要注意，臺幣的升值其實也有脈絡可循，你剛才講在4月8號之後，在市場就有人不斷放出這個消息面出來，現在連在野黨的黨主席都出來講接下來就是貨幣戰了，接下來臺灣就會被列為嚴重的觀察名單了，這都要注意啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，所以我也非常謝謝財委會今天安排這個議題讓我們來報告，裡面雖然是主權基金的議題，但很大部分的委員都是對匯率有一些關心，我也非常感謝財委會給我們這個機會，除了我們在5月5號的記者會來澄清，事實上，這一次也是很好的機會，讓我們再次澄清。"],["李委員坤城：好，我請教一下總裁，您認為臺幣合理的匯率大概是？"],["楊總裁金龍：對這個來講的話，我不能報明牌啊！事實上，那個明牌也不是明牌。"],["李委員坤城：總是有一個區間嘛，你覺得比較合理的……"],["楊總裁金龍：所以，事實上匯率是供需來決定的，它有上有下，你說現在是在升……"],["李委員坤城：但是到29.5元，你就覺得升到有不合理的情況會出來嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：但是有一天它會貶啊！對不對？所以也不要認為它會升到哪裡才是合理的，who knows，誰曉得。但我要強調的就是本波新臺幣升值的非理性預期心理，到目前是so far so good，已經把負的能量釋放走了。"],["李委員坤城：OK，so far so good就對了，就是可以控制、掌握就對了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對！應該是我們的調節，幾乎供需是平衡了，所以我們的調節就不像前幾天這樣的辛苦，所以我想我們在這邊再做一次澄清，我覺得是非常好的。"],["李委員坤城：好，我再問一下主權基金，卓院長是比較積極的態度在推動主權基金，我也看到央行的報告，我想請教一下，央行也認為是可以設主權基金，但是要用專法的方式來做處理就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員坤城：您認為主權基金規模大概要多大？"],["楊總裁金龍：我還是覺得要設立主權基金，這個是我們政府必須要做的決定，中央銀行應該……"],["李委員坤城：對，我的意思是說看起來卓院長的態度是想要設立主權基金。"],["楊總裁金龍：市場很多都說以前是中央銀行反對，所以才沒辦法成立主權基金，說實在的，這不對。"],["李委員坤城：我看你們是支持的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊，我們一直說我們的態度是開放的。"],["李委員坤城：你們是支持的，但就是設專法嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我們……"],["李委員坤城：而且不要動到外匯，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們就是說外匯不能無償的撥用，我們只是強調這個，也就是說成立主權基金，這個是政府的事，政府應該要怎麼來研議，至於我們中央銀行也不便在這邊說它的規模要多少，要怎麼樣、怎麼樣，我覺得那就是政府的事。"],["李委員坤城：那就涉及到這個主權基金的資金來源。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，那我們也做，在我們的……"],["李委員坤城：因為你們提到的都是跟財政部有相關的，發債、撥款、出資這些都是跟財政部相關的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員坤城：除了財政部之外，其他委員也有提到，譬如四大基金，也有提到國發基金，他們適合投資嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：國發基金有他們的立場、意見，它真正的意見是怎麼樣，他們也必須要再研議。至於四大基金，他們的態度是如何，他們自己也要因應，如果政府要成立主權基金，他們要如何來協助？假設政府的政策是這樣，但是決定都是由他們來做，中央銀行不能說它一定要加入，中央銀行確實沒有這個權力。"],["李委員坤城：好，我最後一點時間就請國發會副主委，因為我剛聽很多的委員都有問到相關的問題。"],["主席：副主委請。"],["李委員坤城：總裁先請回。國發會對於設立主權基金的態度是怎麼樣？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我想剛剛總裁也說明了，我們建議還是用專法的方式來做。"],["李委員坤城：資金的來源呢？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：資金的來源其實總裁有講到，可以用發債的方式。"],["李委員坤城：用發債的方式？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是。"],["李委員坤城：國發會也認為用發債的方式是一個……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：或者是國庫撥補，因為到時候會成立一個專案小組，我們會就資金來源的籌措方式，還有資金的金額等等進行相關的討論。"],["李委員坤城：不建議動用到目前的四大基金就對了？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：如果發債的話，有可能四大基金也可以購買債券，間接的引入。"],["李委員坤城：用這種方式？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對。"],["李委員坤城：OK。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：其實還有很多方式可以來運用。"],["李委員坤城：好，我知道了，謝謝。也謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝李委員的質詢。","下一位請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","王世堅","林思銘","涂權吉","王鴻薇","謝龍介","陳玉珍","陳冠廷","林楚茵","翁曉玲"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、國家發展委員會\n劉主任委員鏡清、勞動部洪部長申翰、銓敘部施部長能傑就「我國如果要設立國家主權基金，中\n央銀行與政府相關基金（如四大基金等）所扮演的角色為何？」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00006"}}},{"id":"161077","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161077","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1f17cce5da7e939dad3023b910515704e97e39277836b040fe5ef2ea4dde02c8b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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這個次長請回座來 中副主委委員好剛才漏了這個我也跟次長講漏了一個中華民國台灣的原住民也曾經駐斐濟的代表尤哈尼伊斯卡卡夫德也請這個跟部長講"},{"start":283.885,"end":297.435,"text":"好這個南島民族的交流我剛才有講過去都是外交部那當然從這個人民會編列了這個擬定了這個南島民族論壇的計畫108年合定當初合定的計畫是7億3千多萬109到114年度"},{"start":312.233,"end":330.49,"text":"那當然這個到今年年度請問一下明年的你們還要訂嗎明年我們現在正在訂新的計劃好這個可能會變成是要訂可以訂但是千萬一定要審慎而且不要"},{"start":331.618,"end":355.566,"text":"因為我們延命會的預算已經夠少了延命會的預算夠少了你應該積極的去想辦法去協調外交部提供相關的經費我剛講過過去都是外交部出的所以這個部分連那個你看對語言你都還要對國外的建築語言我們台灣現在是16組對不對四十幾個方圓北"},{"start":359.457,"end":388.333,"text":"下次加上今年年底啊十月以後今年十月以後會增加什麼組十月二十八號按照憲判十七號可能會增加平埔相關族群對 平埔族群有幾個學者按照大概九到十六之間啊也是十幾個啊是那議員更是他們議員更是所以我們經費已經不夠啦他們的議員大概也都已經是兵委或是嘛你還要把經費給這個伯留"},{"start":389.563,"end":414.613,"text":"你看 帛琉的池點我們還要協助可以請外交部協助啦我們協助 經費要由外交部啊所以這個部分 要花六百多萬對於原住民族而言我們的語言是瀕臨消失啊 對不對更需要去加強 這個時間的關係"},{"start":420.812,"end":422.515,"text":"百萬祖的話 宰責任什麼時候?"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":562,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時11分）主席、各位委員。有請陳次長及鍾副主委。次長好、鍾副主委好。"],["陳次長明祺：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：Nga'ay 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Kacaw委員：剛才我也跟次長講漏了一個，中華民國臺灣的原住民也曾經是駐斐濟的代表──尤哈尼‧伊斯卡卡夫特，也請跟部長講。","關於南島民族的交流，我剛才有講，過去都是外交部的經費，當然原民會也編列經費擬定了南島民族論壇計畫，108年核定。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：當初核定的計畫經費是七億三千多萬，時間是109到114年度，就是到今年年度，請問一下明年的你們還要訂嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：明年的部分，我們現在正在訂新的計畫，可能會變成……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：要訂可以訂，但是千萬、一定要審慎，因為我們原民會的預算已經夠少了，你應該要積極想辦法去協調外交部來提供相關的經費，我剛剛講過，過去都是外交部出的，所以這個部分，像語言，連語言你都還要對國外捐助，我們臺灣現在是16族、四十幾個方言別，下次、今年年底、今年10月以後，會增加什麼族？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：10月28號，按照憲判字第17號可能會增加平埔相關族群。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對！平埔族群有幾個？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：按照學者的說法，大概是9到16之間，目前還不曉得。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：也是十幾個。語言更是如此，所以我們經費已經不夠了。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：他們的語言大概也都已經是瀕危或死亡。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你還要把經費給帛琉，你看！帛琉語的辭典，我們還要協助他經費！這可以請外交部協助，有外交部啊！而且這個部分要花六百多萬，對原住民族而言，我們的語言也是瀕臨消失，更需要去加強，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：時間的關係，排灣族語的加油怎麼說？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：masalu、saicelen。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員質詢。","接下來由鍾佳濱委員上臺質詢，鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員上臺質詢，蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員上臺質詢，楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員上臺質詢，蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","接下來由林憶君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-12","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","馬文君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林憶君","蔡易餘","林倩綺","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長、原住民族委員會主任委員報告「運用總和外交理念結合南島語系國家，以發揮\n價值外交願景之規劃與策略」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144601_00006"}}},{"id":"161076","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161076","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1cfce9ae3224f967086c15394cd5fc90197e39277836b040fe63f43b907692b255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:09:24 - 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理事長李主任主任早那針對早上也有部分委員質詢過基隆市這個民政處"},{"start":33.423,"end":58.459,"text":"就是公部門直接去非法利用民眾的個資這件事情我想要再具體問主任如果將來我們成立了個人資料的一個委員會那針對這樣的行為由公務員甚至機關的首長直接非法利用民眾的個資那未來我們要怎樣去處理這類似的事件跟委員報告"},{"start":59.332,"end":72.194,"text":"那在個資法的目前現行已經有的框架就已經規定的公務機關他在相關依法收集的這個可能要在原本的特定目的之內來進行的一個利用那"},{"start":74.722,"end":92.103,"text":"個人資料保護委員會成立之後對於公益機關的這個監管是一天又一天全部納管那剛剛講到說在看這個各樣的過程裡面他同時會很快處理到說這邊有沒有刑事責任 民事責任還有那個我想刑事責任這個"},{"start":93.124,"end":115.845,"text":"不會有問題嘛 因為你說這個處長也收押了嘛那使用個資會有刑事責任這件事但是我們從這裡看到一個很大的問題就是機關在使用民眾的個資這件事情看起來他的監管非常的薄弱是 所以現在要再形成公部門的這部分所謂的個人資料保護長這個機制要先帶進來"},{"start":117.546,"end":142.531,"text":"公部門的個人資料保護長保護長這個其實要先帶進來那如果個人資料保護長也因為機關的內部的一個文化他就是使用這個啊照理民政處長他就是當然要保護個人個資啊如果民政處長帶頭去使用他人個資違法使用那未來如何確保個人資料保護長不會做出類似這樣的違法行徑"},{"start":144.025,"end":161.073,"text":"在我們現在的規劃公務機關業本來就是全民先納管有事前跟事後當這個案子假如發生之後事後的檢查機制調查那當然會出來但是現在的規劃是會在事前我們會去做一個"},{"start":161.713,"end":185.252,"text":"公部門的部分我們有所謂的事前的一個計劃去落實現有的資料像尤其在這個個案裡面最主要看到它本來就已經有個作用法戶籍法那戶籍法裡面去規定相關的戶籍資料你各級人員去動用這個資料是用在哪個目的這些當然稽查的一個頻率跟過程他們用在目的就是用在罷免的連署啊"},{"start":188.077,"end":212.833,"text":"他應該只能用在正式假設說當然就是說使用民眾的個資如果是站在他的他要一個合法使用嘛那我現在想要請教的就是說那如果我是被利用的民眾第一個我可以自習嗎我有辦法自習我的個資是在這一次被非法利用的"},{"start":214.222,"end":236.309,"text":"裡面之一,我有辦法知道嗎?第二個,如果我知道了,我可以申請國賠嗎?是,剛剛說的第一個未來的運作的話就是12條所說的那個通知當事人因為他會變成是屬於個人資料安全維護的事故包含裡面有人員把資料拿出去那這個部分的話就會進到那個機制要去通知當事人那國賠本來現行規定28條就有啦"},{"start":239.45,"end":268.289,"text":"那若是因為公務機關它裡面的公務員執行的職務去造成對於個人資料的一個侵害現有的規定我想基隆這個案例就很清楚啊你剛講的它都構成啊違反使用啊那現在只是說我個別被利用的人我沒有辦法知道所以這一次我們的修法我們要求要通知那到底是多久的時間通知這個可能未來在處理法案的時候我們要討論就是通知的時間點然後第二個"},{"start":269.23,"end":289.178,"text":"好如果我個人我有辦法去查詢嗎就比方說我想要從去看我自己的健保資料這段期間有多少人查詢我或者是我要去看我的戶證資料我的我自己的房產資料或者是我的年增資料"},{"start":290.601,"end":304.52,"text":"因為我們知道說現在像聯合信用中心像銀行都會去查個人的年增資料那我有辦法知悉我在這段時間有多少人查我的資料這個我可以去有辦法去做查詢嗎"},{"start":305.501,"end":321.162,"text":"是 當然現在這個畫面有顯示另外一個資訊說蘇發部有去承諾未來當然他跟我們去討論說現有的平台我們技術方面本來就有一個所謂的MyData這樣的一個平台也正在運作中"},{"start":321.782,"end":347.293,"text":"那如何去結合把這些深化到說他自己的一個跟他有關的個人資料相關的利用的一些內容假如在那個平台未來的發展可以去做當然我們當然也樂見這對於民眾的權益保障主任我想就是說到底誰查詢我這件事情這個是可能再需要再進一步的調查可是民眾至少有權益可以去知道我被查詢幾次吧"},{"start":348.753,"end":375.895,"text":"我被查詢的次數至少要這一點先讓我知道至於到底是誰有一些可能是基於犯罪的偵訪這個調查官或是檢察官或者是其他的單位在查的那他們要有他們的目的那之後是不是要有一個回報機制讓人民知道我的資料被查詢了這個是第一個第二個我還是很在意的像這一次基隆的事件這些被查詢然後被用不當用在"},{"start":377.082,"end":383.191,"text":"這一個個資被用在跟罷免有關的那這個是不是符合國賠的要件"},{"start":385.183,"end":408.135,"text":"這件事情我覺得這個未來都要研究多好讓我們處理這個法案就有這麼明目張膽這麼經典的盜用各自的案件在這裡這個狀況我覺得要好好研究而且未來要怎麼杜絕公部門不要再發生類似的狀況是好不好我們這個案例也會把它列為未來在修法過程裡面很重要的一個重點好 謝謝好 謝謝趙偉好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":718,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時9分）謝謝主席，是不是有請李主任？"],["主席：請籌備處李主任。"],["李主任世德：召委早。"],["蔡委員易餘：主任早。早上也有部分委員質詢過，就是基隆市民政處、公部門直接非法利用民眾的個資這件事情，我想要再具體問主任，如果將來我們成立了個人資料保護委員會，針對由公務員甚至機關首長直接非法利用民眾個資這樣的行為，未來我們要怎麼樣去處理這種類似的事件？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，目前在個資法現行的框架裡面就已經規定公務機關依法蒐集的相關資料可能也要在原本的特定目的之內來進行利用。個人資料保護委員會成立之後對於公務機關的監管是優先全部納管，剛剛講到在看這個個案的過程裡面，它同時會很快處理到這邊有沒有刑事責任、民事責任還有行政……"],["蔡委員易餘：主任，我想刑事責任這個部分不會有問題嘛！"],["李主任世德：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為你說這個處長也被收押了嘛！"],["李主任世德：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：那使用個資會有刑事責任這件事。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是我們從這裡看到一個很大的問題，就是機關使用民眾的個資這件事情看起來它的監管非常的薄弱。"],["李主任世德：是，所以現在要形成公部門的這個部分，先把所謂的個人資料保護長這個機制帶進來。"],["蔡委員易餘：公部門的個人資料保護長……"],["李主任世德：保護長這個機制要先帶進來。"],["蔡委員易餘：那如果個人資料保護長也因為機關內部的文化……他就是使用這個啊！照理說民政處長當然要保護個人個資啊！"],["李主任世德：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：如果民政處長帶頭去違法使用他人個資，那未來如何確保個人資料保護長不會做出類似這樣的違法行徑？"],["李主任世德：在我們現在的規劃裡面，公務機關本來就是全面性的納管，有事前跟事後，假如發生這種案子，事後的檢查機制、調查當然會出來，但是現在的規劃是我們會對公部門的部分有所謂的事前稽查，去落實現有的資料，尤其是在這個個案裡面，最主要看到它本來就已經有一個作用法也就是戶籍法，戶籍法裡面有規定相關的戶籍資料，各級人員去動用這個資料是用在哪個目的，這些當然稽查的頻率跟過程……"],["蔡委員易餘：他們的目的就是用在罷免的連署啊！"],["李主任世德：是，但是他應該只能用在……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啦！就是使用民眾的個資必須是一個合法使用嘛！"],["李主任世德：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：那我現在想要請教的就是，如果我是資料被利用的民眾，第一個，我可以知悉嗎？我有辦法知悉我的個資是在這一次被非法利用的其中一部分，我有辦法知道嗎？第二個，如果我知道了，我可以申請國賠嗎？"],["李主任世德：委員剛剛說的第一個，假如未來開始運作的話，就是第十二條所規定的通知當事人，因為它會變成是屬於個人資料安全維護的事故，包含裡面有人員把資料拿出去，這個部分就會進到那個機制，要去通知當事人。那現行的國賠法本來在第二十八條就有規定了，如果因為公務機關裡面的公務員執行職務造成對於個人資料的侵害，現行的國賠法第二十八條是有規定。"],["蔡委員易餘：主任，我想基隆這個案例就很清楚，你剛剛講的，它都有構成，就是違法使用啊！那現在問題只是我個別被利用的人沒有辦法知道，所以這一次我們的修法有要求要通知，那到底是在多久的時間內通知，這個可能在未來處理法案的時候我們要討論。"],["李主任世德：沒錯。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是通知的時間點。第二個，我個人有辦法去查詢嗎？比方說，我想要去看在這段期間有多少人查詢我自己的健保資料，或者是我要去看我的戶政資料、我自己的房產資料或者是我的聯徵資料，因為我們知道現在像聯合信用中心、銀行都會去查個人的聯徵資料，那我有辦法知悉在這段時間有多少人去查我的資料，這個我有辦法去做查詢嗎？"],["李主任世德：是，現在這個畫面有顯示另外一個資訊，就是數發部有去承諾未來……當然它有跟我們討論現有的平臺，如果我沒記錯的話，因為本來就有一個所謂的MyData這樣一個平臺正在運作中，那如何去結合把這些深化到跟他自己的個人資料相關利用的一些內容，假如在那個平臺未來的發展可以去做到，我們當然也樂見，這對於民眾的權益保障是好的。"],["蔡委員易餘：主任，我想就是說到底誰查詢我的資料這件事情，這個可能需要再進一步的調查，可是民眾至少有權利可以知道自己被查詢了幾次吧？就是我被查詢的次數。"],["李主任世德：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：至少這一點可以讓我知道，至於到底是誰查的，有一些可能是基於犯罪的偵防，是調查官、檢察官或者是其它的單位在查，他們有他們的目的，那之後是不是要有一個回報機制讓人民知道自己的資料被查詢了，這個是第一個。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個，我還是很在意一點，就是像這一次基隆的事件，這些被查詢的個資被不當用在跟罷免有關的，那這個是不是符合國賠的要件？我覺得這個未來都要研究。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：剛好我們要處理這個法案，就發生了這麼明目張膽、這麼經典的盜用個資的案件，我覺得對這個狀況要好好研究，而且未來要怎麼杜絕公部門不要再發生類似的狀況，好不好？"],["李主任世德：是，我們未來在修法過程裡面一定會把這個案例列為很重要的一個重點。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["李主任世德：謝謝召委。"],["主席：好，謝謝蔡易餘委員，請回座。蔡易餘委員的質詢真的是經典，充分掌握時間又有效率，足稱本委員會的楷模。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘）：謝謝邱志偉委員。","接下來請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","請李坤城委員、李坤城委員、李坤城委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請呂玉玲委員、呂玉玲委員、呂玉玲委員不在。","請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","請何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員呂玉玲、謝衣鳯、張嘉郡、陳超明所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-12","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我請我們食藥署署長好 請我們食藥署 蔣署長李凱德 李凱德委員好署長 我這十萬看你講話 我替你捏兩汗你學者這樣講很危險"},{"start":37.031,"end":64.869,"text":"我看你在那個在政界上還要再磨練謝謝委員,謝謝石崇良署長他是你的標竿你做過次長做過次長,現在做過署長,一直這樣子他都在做但是你看他prepare,prepare長官學他都有他的一套這樣講話很危險,什麼吃不死,喝水就死"},{"start":67.165,"end":92.783,"text":"吃飯也會死 吃米也會死所以這樣講是完全很危險的講法我要拜託署署長要自己提點謝謝委員 謝謝我今天早上有跟我們中華民國養豬學會潘連周理事長有跟他聯絡我說你的訴求是什麼這潘連周他是中華民國養豬學會的"},{"start":94.468,"end":114.896,"text":"他只有兩個要求因為他說從國外進口的豬肉佔我們不到一成差不多十到十二萬公噸台灣自己的豬肉他們很有信心只有兩個要求第一個要標示產地"},{"start":117.526,"end":136.131,"text":"第二個,這個台北市長是炒得太熱了從我第八屆,第九屆、第十屆是我們邱太闘部長在做立委第八屆就剪到,剛才你看到很多包括田秋晴、陳潔如,都在下面我做教委,每天在前面全部都要求"},{"start":143.769,"end":166.114,"text":"零檢出好了你看歐盟自己有訂Codex但是他不允許使用萊克多巴胺他也不允許用萊克多巴胺的肉品進口到歐盟現在是這樣喔他雖然他有訂他有訂標準Codex的標準是歐洲華典委員會訂出來那中國"},{"start":168.247,"end":178.395,"text":"兩個都禁止所以他從巴西進口牛肉啦從美國進口牛肉豬肉啦他們就乖乖的沒有用萊克多巴胺的農場乖乖的生產過來那俄羅斯沒有那日本有限度使用10個ppp就0.01ppm他有條件進口"},{"start":193.471,"end":207.651,"text":"萊克多巴胺的韓國也是一樣那台灣也是這樣被逼的啦差不多也是這個條件那美國他允許30個PVP那進口的也是30個PVP我剛剛"},{"start":208.812,"end":229.073,"text":"我剛剛在那邊主持的時候打電話到美國我的親戚舊天山我問他說你們現在那個萊克多巴胺的肉是怎麼做因為我上次去美國看的時候是有標示他有吃瘦肉精的他就標示這邊沒有吃瘦肉精的"},{"start":230.114,"end":243.332,"text":"然後他說我說現在有沒有改變他說現在就沒有標示了但是他們如果沒有吃瘦肉精的他們會寫Nature就是他的食物是Nature沒有含藥物那個比較貴一點"},{"start":246.856,"end":254.482,"text":"其他的什麼牛肉、鹿肉、什麼肉都沒有特別的標示,因為FDA允許什麼蛙殼肉都30個PVP啦,美國人就是這樣啦美國肝臟他們最好的沒有啦,美國都黑皮膚的啦,所以給美國人的標示就是這樣"},{"start":268.444,"end":287.743,"text":"你對於這個標示產地你剛剛說我聽你講好像是國內國外都要標示產地有沒有是嗎沒錯嘛那如果這個這兩天看到這個廠商是說他自己包裝抽屋印書抽屋或是分裝抽屋是真的有這回事嗎"},{"start":289.771,"end":310.721,"text":"這個我沒有特別去詢問廠商因為有一點敏感的時刻當署長好像不太適合去問廠商說你們的狀況但是他們是有這樣子的宣稱以及有新聞稿我有看到好那這十幾年來所有的藍綠的民意代表包括我們總統當時說我這麼年輕一定要臨檢出"},{"start":315.871,"end":336.501,"text":"那這個題目炒得太熱了這個題目不是用說你說零點零一啦零點零四就吃了安心啦吃了不會死啦吃一輩子都不會死這個是情感問題 感覺的問題所以你說這個就要比較細緻了再跟署長簽稿一下好 謝謝"},{"start":342.099,"end":343.66,"text":"所以這個要很嚴肅的來看待"},{"start":362.116,"end":380.928,"text":"因為前一陣子國內的牙醫聯盟歐洲的東歐的牙醫聯盟日本的牙醫的學生的家長有三組人 齁 每天就在那邊忙不定我看你更可憐的啦 每天五枚啦那現在"},{"start":382.542,"end":408.337,"text":"有經驗的有那個的他不去偏鄉啊偏鄉有幾十個沒有沒有沒有五十幾個吧五十五個對五十五個啊包括我們屏東就幾大堆啊啊有經驗的沒經驗去啊外國回來的你沒辦法去啊每天就換人家啊總是偏鄉裡頭要擔該關啊"},{"start":411.141,"end":427.986,"text":"現在亞裔前年會,我看他討論,他說不然可不可以讓這個亞裔系畢業,我看一年也沒有多少個啦,頂多一百多個啦,難的嘛那用替代役,讓那邊是三桑,他有這招啊,他有這招啊嘛,因為亞裔是出雜,但是經驗可能比較不好,但是裝逼不好比較好啊,你覺得這個這個這個怎麼樣?"},{"start":442.967,"end":453.869,"text":"這個當然我們可以做建議啦不過這是內政部的權責所以是一個方式你現在沒有補啊沒有補啊,這裡是偏鄉現在是這樣啦,現在亞裔偏鄉這個計畫我們鼓勵本國畢業的醫師可以去偏鄉我們再鼓勵保障薪水現在有這個制度現在就"},{"start":475.846,"end":488.271,"text":"這部份的結尾是行政要去審查,因為包括保障薪水,包括去到那裡那個要把那個儀器嘛,設備什麼要處理好所以我認為課程在衛生所設備,讓他們可以去我先跟大家說,現在立體規定的是要本國畢業的本國衛生事業畢業的"},{"start":498.752,"end":516.81,"text":"對啦,你不要變成本國爺爺是要有經驗的先去,去保障薪水,我是怕還有人要去啦,不然你偏偏的...那爺爺是說,如果有一個瘦不可能就有得人要去啦?我不會說的,人家靠電,靠電喔,靠電齁,"},{"start":518.832,"end":523.996,"text":"要自己中間去看,在那裡也沒有藥醫,平常藥醫師說的去輪,輪,每次也開天窗,那不那麼簡單啦,藥醫師自己都在診所,自己都沒有藥醫師,"},{"start":534.964,"end":548.573,"text":"所以這個替代役這一塊算一算應該可以來補充人力不然的話你國外的不行這個有經驗的沒有人要去這總是要改革的這塊的檢部有問題嗎 不有問題嗎可以嗎 部長當然這有一定的條件 市長講一下"},{"start":565.591,"end":584.46,"text":"謝謝委員關心 就是誠如剛剛我們部長講的替代役是市內政部的權責然後再第二點就是說從113年起因為國家常備兵員的有一定的員額的考量所以113年起就只有因為宗教跟家庭的因素可以申請替代役這樣子"},{"start":585.36,"end":606.682,"text":"再來就是亞裔系的畢業生剛開始畢業的時候他有分有牌的跟沒牌的不是每個畢業生都一定可以考上如果說把經驗比較少的把他送到比較偏遠的偏鄉這樣的話他的適當性我們還需要考量再來替代儀的話94年次以後的畢業生只有一年"},{"start":607.703,"end":623.307,"text":"所以這個如果說他們一年有可能會造成短比較短期的人力那基本上我們在部長的指導之下我們希望是提供至少要有PGY以上的而且是長期的人力剛剛我們部長也講過了就是說畢業去當賓士還沒有PGY喔"},{"start":626.534,"end":644.246,"text":"還沒有PGY喔?是畢業考上就去當兵?還是當替代役?畢業就一顆對要給我PGY,連PGY就沒有我們的偏鄉計畫就是在部長指導之下,我們的偏鄉計畫是要有PGY以後才會去偏鄉這樣子偏鄉計畫是有完成PGY,當然是一定要用這招"},{"start":648.149,"end":663.609,"text":"這稍微有靠一般醫學的訓練、一般牙醫學的訓練可能是比較適合這個替代醫這個考慮的因素比較多,但是是一個很好的方向,我們也可以來建議啦好,可以考量這一塊啦"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":601,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（11時1分）謝謝主席，我請食藥署署長。"],["主席：請食藥署姜署長。"],["姜署長至剛：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：署長，這陣子看你在講話，我替你捏把冷汗，學者這樣講，很危險，我看你在政界上還要再磨練。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：你要學石崇良署長，他是你的標竿，他當過次長，現在又當署長，他是降級來做，但是你看他在prepare產官學都有他的一套。你這樣講話很危險，什麼吃不死？喝水就會死了，吃飯也會死，吃米也會死，所以這樣講完全是很危險的講法，我再拜託石署長給你提點。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：我今天早上有跟中華民國養豬協會潘連周理事長聯絡，我說你的訴求是什麼？潘連周是中華民國養豬協會的，他只有兩個要求，因為他說從國外進口的豬肉占我們不到一成，差不多10到12萬公噸，臺灣自己的豬肉他們很有信心，他只有兩個要求，第一個，要標示產地；第二個，萊克多巴胺炒得太熱了啦！從我第8屆、第9屆，第10屆是邱泰源部長在當立委，第8屆就戰到……剛剛你看到很多，包括田秋堇、陳節如，都在這邊互罵，我也做召委，每天在那邊戰，全部都要求零檢出。","好了，你看，歐盟自己有訂CODEX，但是它不允許使用萊克多巴胺，它也不允許用萊克多巴胺的肉品進口到歐盟，現在還是這樣喔！它雖然禁，它有訂CODEX的標準，是歐洲法典委員會訂出來的。那中國兩個也都禁止，所以他從巴西進口牛肉、從美國進口牛肉、豬肉，他們就乖乖的不用萊克多巴胺的農場，乖乖的生產過來。俄羅斯沒有，那日本有限度使用10個ppb嘛！就是0.01ppm，有條件進口萊克多巴胺，韓國也是一樣，臺灣也是這樣被逼的，差不多也是這個條件。美國允許30個ppb，進口的也是30個ppb。我剛剛在主持的時候打電話到美國，我的親戚在舊金山，我問他說你們現在萊克多巴胺的肉是怎麼做，因為我上次去美國看的時候是有標示，有吃瘦肉精的就有標示，這邊沒吃瘦肉精的，然後我說現在有沒有改變，他說現在就沒有標示了，但是他們如果沒有吃瘦肉精的會寫natural，就是牠的食物是natural，沒有含藥物，那個比較貴一點，其他的牛肉、鹿肉等都沒有特別再標示，因為FDA允許任何肉品通通30個ppb，美國現在就是這樣。難道美國他們那邊是最好的？沒有啦！美國都是亂搞的啦！所以美國現在的標示就是這樣。因此你對於標示產地，你剛剛說，我聽你講好像是國內、國外都要標示產地，有沒有？是嘛？沒錯嘛！"],["姜署長至剛：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：這兩天看到廠商是說他自己包裝錯誤、運輸錯誤或是分裝錯誤，是真的有這回事嗎？還是他亂說？"],["姜署長至剛：這個我沒有特別去詢問廠商，因為有點敏感時刻，當署長好像不太適合去問廠商他們的狀況，但是他們是有這樣子的宣稱，以及有新聞稿，我有看到。"],["蘇委員清泉：這十幾年來所有的藍綠民意代表，包括總統，當時說得這麼硬，一定要零檢出，這個題目炒得太熱了，這個題目不是你說0.01、0.04就吃得安心、吃得不會死、吃一輩子不會死，這個是情感問題、感覺的問題，所以你說這個話要小心一點。"],["姜署長至剛：是，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：再跟石署長請教一下。"],["姜署長至剛：好，謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以這個要很嚴肅的看待，好，你請回吧！"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：我請部長跟口腔司。"],["邱部長泰源：召委好。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為前一陣子國內的牙醫聯盟、東歐牙醫聯盟、日本牙醫的學生家長，有3組人每天都在舞弄你，部長，我看你有夠可憐，每天被罵。現在有經驗的不去偏鄉，偏鄉有五十幾個吧？"],["邱部長泰源：55個。"],["蘇委員清泉：55個，包括屏東就一大堆了，有經驗的不肯去，外國回來的你不讓他去，每天都在吵架，偏鄉離島總是要幫人家解決。我有跟牙醫全聯會討論，他說不然可不可以讓這些牙醫系畢業的，我看一年也沒有多少個，頂多一百多個，男的用替代役讓他們去山上，他有執照了嘛！他有牙醫師執照，但是經驗可能比較沒有，但是總比沒有好，你覺得這個方式怎麼樣？"],["邱部長泰源：當然我們可以做這樣的建議，不過這是內政部的權責，這也是一個方式啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：你要主動，不然你現在沒有對策啊！那這些偏鄉……"],["邱部長泰源：有啦，現在是這樣，現在牙醫偏鄉計畫鼓勵本國畢業的醫師可以去偏鄉，我們鼓勵他，還保障薪水，現在有這個制度。"],["蘇委員清泉：有人要去嗎？沒有嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：現在這部分的計畫是在行政院審查，因為這個包括保障薪水，包括他去到那邊，儀器設備等要處理好，所以我們覺得可能在衛生所，有設備讓他可以去，我先在這裡說，現在規定是要本國牙醫系畢業的。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，你現在就用本國牙醫系畢業，然後有經驗的先去，並且保障薪水，我是怕仍舊沒人要去，不然明明就有55……"],["邱部長泰源：牙醫師公會說，如果到一個數目可能就有人要去。"],["蘇委員清泉：亂說！連東港快到潮州中間的崁頂都沒牙醫，也是屏東牙醫師公會去那邊輪，常常也開天窗！沒那麼簡單啦，對不對？牙醫師大家都在診所，自己都很忙、行程綁很緊。所以替代役這一塊算一算應該可以來補充人力，不然的話，國外的不行、有經驗的也沒有人要去，這部分總是要解決，部長，健保有問題嗎？沒問題吧？沒問題嘛，可以嗎？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：當然這有一定的條件，司長說一下。"],["張司長雍敏：謝謝委員關心，誠如剛剛我們部長講的，替代役是內政部的權責；第二點，從113年起，因為國家常備兵源有一定員額的考量，所以113年起就只有宗教跟家庭的因素可以申請替代役；再來，牙醫系畢業生剛開始畢業的時候有分有牌的跟沒牌的，因為不是每個畢業生都一定可以考上，如果把經驗比較少的送到比較偏遠的偏鄉，這樣的話，適當性我們還需要考量；再來關於替代役，94年次以後的畢業生只有1年，1年可能會造成比較短期的人力，基本上在部長的指導之下，我們希望提供至少要有PGY以上的而且是長期的人力，剛剛我們部長也講過了，就是說……"],["蘇委員清泉：沒有，他們畢業去當兵的時候還沒有PGY喔！"],["張司長雍敏：對，所以我們……"],["蘇委員清泉：是畢業考照考上就去當兵、當替代役。"],["邱部長泰源：畢業就去考……"],["蘇委員清泉：對，他還有沒有PGY、連PGY都沒有。"],["張司長雍敏：對，在部長的指導之下，我們的偏鄉計畫是要有PGY以後的才會去偏鄉。"],["邱部長泰源：偏鄉計畫的是要完成PGY，當然一定要有執照，這些有一般牙醫學訓練的可能比較適合，而替代役要考慮的因素比較多，不過是一個很好的方向，我們也可以來建議。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，可以考量這一塊，以上。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員。","下一位請黃秀芳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳瑩","廖偉翔","陳培瑜","李坤城","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","劉書彬","劉建國","黃國昌","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲"],"page_start":163,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「長照2.0執行情形檢討及3.0未來規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長就「澳洲進口豬腳驗出含萊克多巴胺，如何加強肉品食安查驗，讓民眾\n放心」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00004"}}},{"id":"161074","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161074","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1e8bcb04f7a032737e0059966c803d0e997e39277836b040fdc5543f29fdbc7c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:59:54 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你自己對於這個數字你有沒有非常驚訝?"},{"start":45.706,"end":64.793,"text":"有沒有什麼樣的 有沒有surprise兩天升10% 你突然看到連續兩天升10%你是不是 我想喔 我想喔 有沒有措手不及第一個就市場的一個觀點來看 就像純如那個 就有一個shock"},{"start":65.818,"end":68.8,"text":"是一個shock但是就中央銀行的立場來看不是說立場因為我們時常在觀看這個市場所以市場的波動有些時候的波動比這個多還大的"},{"start":79.349,"end":82.051,"text":"不過委員 我跟您報告就是說即使是這兩天做比較大的"},{"start":96.559,"end":119.481,"text":"波動但是呢他釋放出來的一個釋放出來的一個能量呢讓後面這邊呢他的一個市場呢就回歸比較正常我覺得這個也是他另一方面的一個正面的一個看法我不是來跟你吵架這整件事情對台灣台灣中小企業占全台灣的98%"},{"start":122.023,"end":142.69,"text":"我們雇用的員工佔將近八成很多中小企業朋友跟我講只做進出口他說他什麼都沒做一下子我們中小企業很多都是我們都講毛三道是利率大概只有3%到4%的毛利率而已什麼都不做就損失一兩千萬他可能第一季或上半年"},{"start":143.49,"end":146.673,"text":"他本來預估賺的錢就全部都吐出去甚至在財務槓桿上他本來要付錢給上游廠商蝦子少了那麼多錢他借錢來周轉你即便後續有什麼補充政府有什麼措施跟政府借錢是要還的不用還的但是"},{"start":163.007,"end":180.079,"text":"一下子兩天的利率升到10%對我們中小企業是嚴重的衝擊否則你不會在那一天下午四點半馬上開了記者會所以你剛才回應說對市場來說可能是surprise那"},{"start":181.503,"end":203.491,"text":"難道對我們來說沒有 對您來說沒有措手不及嗎沒有措手不及怎麼會下午四點半開記者會所以 我才會跟委員報告嘛就是說事實上呢 專業銀行也不是說沒有事實的介入來調解啦只是說是因為它的市場的"},{"start":205.071,"end":209.354,"text":"不理性的預警我都同意市場我們有一些調節總裁我再問一件事情這個衝擊對我們中小企業影響太大了有些小的進出口廠商一下子"},{"start":224.463,"end":243.549,"text":"我們現在什麼都沒做就損失一兩千萬所以你個人認為你最近無論賴總統也好我們各縣市首長或我們重要的部會跟財經有關的你覺得中小企業那個區間到底我們的台我們的升值多少30塊28塊31塊什麼樣是一個比較合理或比較好的一個區間數字"},{"start":251.331,"end":279.323,"text":"他們能夠承受的 你知道我的意思嗎因為我們台灣進出口靠進出口耶 剛才8%都是中小企業所以我問你 什麼是一個比較合理的一個我跟委員報告啦事實上呢 我剛剛也跟其他的委員 我也說明了30塊的左右的這個價位呢 也不是第一次啦"},{"start":280.083,"end":281.888,"text":"我知道他以前就好幾次了"},{"start":283.012,"end":283.712,"text":"我跟委員報告說實在的"},{"start":311.36,"end":317.397,"text":"每一家的企業它對匯率的一個承受的程度不一樣"},{"start":318.955,"end":329.54,"text":"總裁 你就在浪費我的時間政府應該有一個比較理想的數字理想的數字最大多數的我們還就是說會試是由供需來決定的你如果說是像這樣的話我就說我來報個名牌他30塊總裁你不願意講沒關係啦"},{"start":343.465,"end":367.901,"text":"我只覺得你心裡應該要有一個你不能講也好或你不願意講也好但是我覺得你心裡應該是要有一個什麼樣的一個數字對我們中小企業是一個衝擊不會太大這我要提醒你的好我要轉到我的第二個問題總裁94歲的索羅斯他有一個外號你應該非常清楚叫金融巨鱷他的量子基金是全世界最有名的對沖基金"},{"start":368.641,"end":372.125,"text":"那在97年當時1997年的時候你當時是剛從倫敦回到我們央行擔任行務委員所以你應該對當時的對沖基金量子基金你應該是非常熟悉當然這一次"},{"start":383.858,"end":405.208,"text":"現在的這一次的禿鷹的狀況也好跟當時1997年狀況有很大的不同高大集會委員 集會集會委員也問了一些問題但我想很具體的問就說 總裁因為環境不一樣這跟1997年環境不一樣這一波的禿鷹的炒匯從匯市到底賺了多少錢"},{"start":408.149,"end":426.905,"text":"我說實在的就是說因為我在記者會裡面呢我提到了禿鷹這兩個字所以就是說提到這兩個字的時候呢所以才有媒體報導了就是說把這個禿鷹變成好像是一個重點事實上我當時我只是說"},{"start":428.266,"end":437.131,"text":"我們在就是說在這個鋪洞的過程當中我們也發現了就是說外資呢他進來他沒有買股我直接再問你是禿鷹還是用這個對沖基金在後面炒孔"},{"start":443.234,"end":447.317,"text":"你所知道 因為你有說 你在媒體上 你有說你請他出去現在用說 到底你說你有查到 你也請他出去 你有查決那到底他獲利了結多少 背後到底是秃嬰還是對沖基金有好幾個對沖基金嗎不是 我跟委員報告啦 就是說"},{"start":466.313,"end":477.428,"text":"這個資金進來了以後parking就一兩天的時候呢我們就趕快第一個我們會告訴他你如果沒有買股票的時候你就趕快出去那你如果說進來的話"},{"start":480.672,"end":494.702,"text":"他是好幾個對沖基金嗎那我只是說我的類似但是我怎麼能說說他就是禿鷹我知道那他是用對沖基金嗎沒關係總裁我知道好來那到底他是好幾個對沖基金還是這一個對沖基金沒有啦我們看到了那個資金那麼龐大我們只是"},{"start":505.75,"end":514.358,"text":"跟Custodian就是我們的保管領導我們告訴他你就是只有大德勸說因為我們以前也都是說你要進來你就是要買股票"},{"start":522.805,"end":526.589,"text":"總裁我知道我們不要浪費因為我還有一分半鐘我知道對於禿鷹的標準判斷標準他要進來他就趕快買股要獲利了結我們就趕快請他出去"},{"start":545.808,"end":550.611,"text":"但是我們現在只有道德勸說這件事情我覺得恐怕是不夠因為外界包括媒體都笑我們說我們只能道德勸說只剩下一張嘴所以未來我們會不會訂定規則或法則來去對於就是你資金進來你又不買股賺了錢你也不趕快出去我們應該要有一個規範出來你會不會制定這樣的一個規範"},{"start":572.604,"end":586.638,"text":"我覺得就是說第一個我們如果跟他的Custodian我們有一個很好的一個很密切的一個協調我覺得這樣也是足夠"},{"start":587.819,"end":605.949,"text":"所以不打算施行罰則 不打算使用規範你這樣的話 你會嚇跑外資因為我們都好不容易就說 我們的市場都是那麼的自由你是一個自由的氣氛那我就只能請總裁 總裁你可有聽到的那以後他不敢進來好 總裁我知道 所以未來你就只能持續的道德勸說不是說道德勸說 我們密切觀察"},{"start":615.934,"end":640.22,"text":"那如果說你這樣的話 那所以我就說我們會密切的跟那個Custodian那總裁我請問這一波的外資的規模 進來炒貨的規模到底有多大數字有多大你不能講我也不便跟委員報告好 那另外一個 我們現在央行要啟動經檢我們什麼時候會啟動我們昨天就啟動了好 預示執行多久我們至少 我們今天還是去啦"},{"start":641.494,"end":658.123,"text":"我們今天也去啦 時間多久沒有 我們也沒有 所以我們看看情況如何如果說覺得市場都已經會平靜而且是市場的秩序都已經良好的時候我們為什麼要一定查下去如果這個炒賣的對象也包含我們的進口廠商我們會怎麼處理對 我們也會對這個進出口廠商我知道 那如果有發現也有我們的進出口廠商會怎麼處理這個呢"},{"start":667.028,"end":679.326,"text":"這個呢我們對銀行因為銀行他要KYC而且我們相關的規定那這個是可以的你就跟財政部連結沒有不必要我們就本身就可以好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":709,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時59分）我是不是可以請總裁？"],["主席：請總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：李委員早。"],["李委員彥秀：午安，總裁。這一連串辛苦了，最近非常非常辛苦。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員關心。"],["李委員彥秀：你辛苦了，我們中小企業更辛苦，所以這個議題實在是太重要了，總裁，在5月初這兩天時間新臺幣升值10%，剛才你回復幾位委員說沒有所謂的楊金龍防線。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：但是兩天升值10%，總裁，你自己對於這個數字有沒有非常surprise？"],["楊總裁金龍：有沒有什麼樣的……"],["李委員彥秀：有沒有surprise？兩天升10%，你突然看到連續兩天升10%，你有沒有措手不及？"],["楊總裁金龍：第一個，就市場的觀點來看，誠如……就是有一個shock。"],["李委員彥秀：是一個shock？"],["楊總裁金龍：是一個shock，但是就中央銀行的立場來看，不是立場，因為我們時常在觀看這個市場的波動，有些時候的波動比這個都還大。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道你時常在看市場，但是對臺灣來說，你身為央行總裁，主計長也在現場，財政部同仁我不知道有沒有在現場。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，我跟你報告，即使是這兩天有比較大的波動，但是它釋放出來的能量，讓後面的市場回歸比較正常，我覺得這個也是另一方面的正面看法。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，我不是來跟你吵架的，這整件事情對臺灣來講，中小企業占全臺灣的98%，其所僱用的員工占將近八成，很多中小企業朋友跟我講他是做進出口的，他什麼都沒做，中小企業很多都是毛三到四，大概只有3%到4%的毛利率而已，他什麼都不做就損失一、兩千萬，他可能第一季或上半年本來預估賺的錢全部都吐出去，甚至在財務槓桿上，他本來要付現金給上游廠商，一下子少了那麼多錢，還要借錢來周轉。即便後續有什麼補充，政府有什麼措施，跟政府借錢是要還的，不是不用還，但是兩天的匯率一下子升了10%，對於我們中小企業是嚴重的衝擊。否則你不會在那一天下午四點半馬上開了記者會，所以你剛才回應對市場來說可能是surprise，難道對你來說沒有措手不及嗎？你沒有措手不及，怎麼會下午四點半開記者會？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我才會跟委員報告，事實上，中央銀行也不是沒有適時地介入來調節，只是因為市場不理性的預期太強烈，這太強烈了。"],["李委員彥秀：我都同意，這個有很多的操作，你剛才說市場有一些調節。總裁，我再問一件事情，這個衝擊對我們的中小企業實在影響太大了，我剛剛提到有些小的進出口廠商，莫名其妙什麼都沒做，一下子就損失一、兩千萬，所以你個人認為，最近無論賴總統也好，各縣市首長或者跟財經有關的重要部會，對中小企業來講，你覺得我們的臺幣要升值多少？30塊、28塊、31塊？什麼樣的區間是一個比較合理或比較好的數字，也是他們能夠承受的，你知道我的意思嗎？因為我們臺灣是靠進出口，98%都是中小企業。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，所以我問你什麼是一個比較合理的區間，是31，還是30.5？"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，事實上，我剛剛也跟其他的委員說明過了，30塊左右這個價位也不是第一次。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道。"],["楊總裁金龍：以前就有好幾次了。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，我知道有好幾次，我們不要浪費時間，你直接告訴我，就以現在，總統也好，他也去看了中小企業，還有你應該有整合各部會的意見，依現在整個國際的處境、環境，臺幣什麼樣的數字是一個比較合理、中小企業能夠承受的？"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，說實在的，每一家企業對匯率的承受程度不一樣。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，那你就在浪費我的時間了，政府應該有一個比較理想的數字，這個理想的數字對大多數的……"],["楊總裁金龍：匯市是由供需來決定的，如果是像這樣的話，我就來報個明牌，30塊才是……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，你不願意講沒關係，我只是覺得你心裡應該要有一個數字，你不能講也好，或是你不願意講也好，但是我覺得你心裡應該是要有一個什麼樣的數字，對我們中小企業的衝擊不會太大，這是我要提醒你的。我要轉到我的第二個問題，總裁，94歲的索羅斯有一個外號叫金融巨鱷，你應該非常清楚，他的量子基金是全世界最有名的對沖基金，在1997年的時候，你當時剛從倫敦回到央行擔任行務委員，所以你應該對當時的對沖基金、量子基金非常熟悉，這一次的禿鷹狀況也好，跟1997年當時的狀況有很大不同，剛才前面幾位委員也問了一些問題，但我想很具體地問，總裁，因為環境不一樣，這跟1997年的環境不一樣，這一波禿鷹的炒匯，從匯市到底賺了多少錢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我說實在的，因為我在記者會裡面提到了「禿鷹」這兩個字，提到這兩個字的時候，所以媒體報導才會把禿鷹變成好像是一個重點，事實上，我當時只是說在這個波動的過程當中，我們也發現了有外資進來沒有買股票。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，因為時間有限，我直接再問你，是禿鷹還是用對沖基金在後面操控？就你所知道的，因為你在媒體上有說你請他出去，所以我現在問你，你說你有查到，你也請他出去了，因為你有察覺，到底他獲利了結多少？最後到底是禿鷹還是對沖基金？有好幾個對沖基金嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上不是，我跟委員報告，這個資金進來了以後parking一、兩天的時候，我們就趕快，第一個，我們會告訴他，你如果沒有改買股票的時候就趕快出去，你如果進來的話……"],["李委員彥秀：你是在道德勸說是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：啊？"],["李委員彥秀：他是禿鷹，還是好幾個對沖基金嗎？你不能講，是嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我只是說類似，但是我怎麼能說他就是禿鷹。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，他是用對沖基金嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：在做這樣的認定要非常地……"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係！總裁，我知道，到底他是好幾個對沖基金還是只有一個對沖基金？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我們看到那個資金那麼龐大，我們只是跟custodian，就是我們的保管銀行，我們告訴他這個要……"],["李委員彥秀：你就是只有道德勸說，你也只能道德勸說嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，因為我們以前也都是你要進來就是要買股票，但是有一些……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，你獲利了結就趕快出去。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！所以我們也不能這樣就說他就是禿鷹。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，我知道，我們不要浪費時候，我還有一分半鐘，我知道對於禿鷹的判斷標準，他要進來就趕快買股，獲利了結我們就會趕快請他出去，但是我們現在只有道德勸說這件事情，我覺得恐怕是不夠的。因為外界包括媒體都在笑我們只能道德勸說，只剩下一張嘴，所以未來我們會不會訂定規則或罰則，對於資金進來又不買股，賺了錢你也不趕快出去，我們應該要有一個規範出來，你會不會制定這樣的一個規範？"],["楊總裁金龍：第一個，我們如果跟他的custodian有一個很好、很密切的協調，我覺得這樣也是足夠，也不必要……"],["李委員彥秀：所以不打算制定罰則、不打算制定規範？"],["楊總裁金龍：這樣的話會嚇跑外資，因為我們好不容易說我們市場都是那麼自由，是一個自由的氣氛，如果你縱使要……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，你的回應我聽到了……"],["楊總裁金龍：以後他不敢進來。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，我知道了，所以未來你只能持續地道德勸說，好，我了解……"],["楊總裁金龍：不是說道德勸說啦！我們密切觀察，如果你這樣的話，所以我說我們會密切地跟custodian……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，我請問這一波外資進來炒匯的規模到底有多大？數字有多大？你不能講？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也不便跟委員報告。"],["李委員彥秀：好，另外一個現在央行要啟動金檢，我們什麼時候會啟動？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們昨天就啟動了。"],["李委員彥秀：好，預計執行多久？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們今天還是去了，我們今天也去了，所以……"],["李委員彥秀：時間多久？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我們也沒有……"],["李委員彥秀：就會持續地？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們看看情況如何，如果覺得市場都已經恢復平靜，而且市場秩序都已經良好的時候，我們為什麼一定要查下去？"],["李委員彥秀：如果這個炒匯的對象也包含我們的進口廠商，我們會怎麼處理？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我們也會對進出口廠商來……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，如果有發現也有我們的進出口廠商，我們會怎麼處理？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我們是對銀行，因為銀行要有KYC，而且我們有相關的規定，這個是可以的。"],["李委員彥秀：你就跟財政部連結？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，不必要，我們本身就可以。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李委員質詢。","下一位請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","王世堅","林思銘","涂權吉","王鴻薇","謝龍介","陳玉珍","陳冠廷","林楚茵","翁曉玲"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、國家發展委員會\n劉主任委員鏡清、勞動部洪部長申翰、銓敘部施部長能傑就「我國如果要設立國家主權基金，中\n央銀行與政府相關基金（如四大基金等）所扮演的角色為何？」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00006"}}},{"id":"161073","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161073","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c11f2a35549892f149d3023b910515704e97e39277836b040f9bf675f76cd7c0d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:05:06 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次長早安我想跟次長繼續來討論外交部可以做的運動外交運動外交這件事情其實我屢次的質詢都已經講過我們來看下一張在九月MLB海盜隊會有一個台灣日除了台灣日這件事情我之前已經跟外交部討論我認為外交部可以做更多事情但很令人開心的事情我們台灣的無人鎖大使劉柏君他將擔任開球的來賓我不知道次長您知不知道他為什麼會成為開球的來賓"},{"start":38.568,"end":59.945,"text":"我覺得她是表現非常傑出的一個女性她同時也是首個重要的一個女的裁判我想她具有代表意義市長講到部分的正確第一個其實是因為MLB海盜隊是第一個設置女性裁判室的大聯盟球場這是第一個第二個"},{"start":61.346,"end":61.546,"text":"我們當然對"},{"start":86.72,"end":108.667,"text":"除了我們的一般的行政協助之外我們也希望那麼劉伯鈞大使去這一趟能夠發揮最大的一個效應那麼就是說我們進行運動外交那麼一個具有代表性的人物在這麼具有一個重要性的一個球場做開球的這樣的一個事情我們希望能夠把它相關的效應能夠做到最大但是"},{"start":109.964,"end":137.485,"text":"還是遇到一個問題是說我們的的確是這個對外宣傳的一個這個經費非常的不是非常有限是沒有嗎所以我們希望能夠透過更加有創意的一些活動不只是跟這個橋界的互動也希望能夠跟這個美國主流社會能夠傳達這樣的一個訊息我們是個非常重視體育的國家我們是非常重視運動的國家不過次長你剛講到了已經有兩個很有創意的方法一個是也許可以辦跟橋界的交流是"},{"start":137.765,"end":164.611,"text":"那甚至是呢跟當地的中小學辦交流我覺得這應該也是一個可能不需要花經費我們在沒有經費的節居的困難的情況下運用我們的創意讓台灣的運動外交可以擴及到在美國當地不同的生活圈不同的族群不同的文化生活經驗裡面所以剛剛你講到跟僑界交流也好啦跟當地的學府交流啦辦相關的演講啦座談會應該也是我們可以做的事情"},{"start":165.111,"end":184.759,"text":"那因為現在其實時間還早還有一點時間後續這邊我希望可以看到外交部更積極的規劃讓這件事情的效益放大好嗎是我們一定會這樣來做因為你們外交部自己其實有一個外交部國際青年大使計畫是他有沒有機會做一個整合或是做一個結合"},{"start":188.772,"end":215.794,"text":"沒關係 讓您的幕僚來幫您回答委員好 我是NGO國際會執行長江振偉有關於外交部國際青年大使我先報告一下 今年的部分大概是在八月下旬會到馬紹爾跟關島進行相關青年大使的訪問團計畫今年的部分比較放在原住民的主軸上面"},{"start":216.474,"end":242.935,"text":"那有關於就是說是不是在明年可以結合相關的這個運動外交的國際賽事來辦理的話我們現在可以考慮朝這個方向來做思考那我們現在就是說明年的這個國際青年大使希望我們會有把它擴大的一個想法好沒關係我先尊重你們的工作期程安排確實我們提早規劃是對的但是因為我已經提到了外交部國際青年大使"},{"start":243.035,"end":262.929,"text":"那就算錯過跟博軍今年到美國去的時間但我相信我們持續用運動外交作為主題應該是一個好的方向那不要忘記了美加墨2026世界盃也是可以提早規劃的事情好不好好我們一定照辦好謝謝喔來最後一個來第二個我們還有另外一個非常優秀的無人鎖大使戴資穎那"},{"start":264.15,"end":284.071,"text":"我想今天的主題是南島的問題我們來看一下關於南島語系國家的總和外交我認為戴茲隱大使可以發揮很重要的角色在印尼跟馬來西亞這些國家他們對於語求的熱愛這件事情我相信如果透過運動外交的策略或者是相關有創意的方法應該也可以促成更多的互動對不對"},{"start":285.525,"end":302.275,"text":"絕對是好那就拜託你們要納入相關的規劃當中不管是透過剛剛這個執行長這邊你們必須用這個管道或者是其他的管道所以我想我就具體的要求外交部應該要持續跟MLB各對台灣日的規劃的可能性我覺得這個我們一起加油再來搭配既有的青年大使計畫不管是在"},{"start":303.576,"end":322.661,"text":"今年看起來來不及了,明年或者是後年還有所謂的美加末世界盃最後運動外交要拜託你們納入相關外交部持續長期推動的規劃因為它絕對不會只有運動部的事情,好嗎?完全認可,而且我要往這個方向來努力那我剛說的相關的事情,有機會在一個月內給我們相關的規劃報告嗎?可以,我們以書面來回答好,沒問題,謝謝市長,謝謝執行長,謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":533,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時5分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["陳次長明祺：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長早安。我想跟次長繼續討論外交部可以做的運動外交。運動外交這件事情其實我屢次質詢都已經講過，在9月MLB海盜隊會有一個台灣日，針對台灣日，我之前已經跟外交部討論，我認為外交部可以做更多事情，很令人開心的是臺灣的無任所大使劉柏君將擔任開球來賓，不知道次長知不知道他為什麼會成為開球的來賓？"],["陳次長明祺：我覺得他是表現非常傑出的女性，同時也是首位重要的女裁判，具有代表意義。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，次長講到部分的正確，第一個，其實是因為MLB海盜隊是第一個設置女性裁判室的大聯盟球場，這是第一個；第二個，去年他們還舉辦了美國女裁判的主題活動，所以對柏君大使發出了這個邀請。當天他除了去開球之外，我非常好奇外交部在這件事情上有什麼可以助力的可能，或者是如何在這個活動以外、他除了去開球之外，我們可以讓相關的效益放大？我們有沒有可能有什麼樣的想法或作為？"],["陳次長明祺：除了一般的行政協助之外，我們也希望劉柏君大使這趟能夠發揮最大的效應，就是我們進行運動外交，一個具有代表性的人物，在這麼具有重要性的球場做開球的事情，我們希望能夠把相關的效應做到最大。但是還是遇到一個問題，就是我們對外宣傳的經費不是非常有限，是沒有，所以我們希望能夠透過更加有創意的活動，不只是跟僑界的互動，也希望能夠跟美國主流社會傳達這樣的訊息──我們是一個非常重視體育的國家、我們是非常重視運動的國家。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。不過次長你剛剛講到已經有兩個很有創意的方法，一個是也許可以辦跟僑界的交流，甚至是跟當地的中小學辦交流，我覺得這應該也是一個可能不需要花經費，我們在沒有經費、拮据困難的情況下運用我們的創意，讓臺灣的運動外交可以擴及到美國當地不同的生活圈、不同的族群、不同的文化生活經驗。剛剛你講到跟僑界交流也好、跟當地學府交流、辦相關的演講或座談會，應該也是我們可以做的事情。"],["陳次長明祺：完全是。"],["陳委員培瑜：因為現在時間還早，還有一點時間，後續我希望可以看到外交部更積極的規劃，讓這件事情的效益放大，好嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：是，我們一定會這樣來做。"],["陳委員培瑜：你們外交部自己其實有一個外交部國際青年大使計畫，有沒有機會做一個整合或是做一個結合？沒關係，讓您的幕僚幫您回答。"],["江執行長振瑋：委員好。我是NGO國際會的執行長江振瑋。有關於外交部的國際青年大使，我先報告一下，今年的部分大概是在8月下旬會到馬紹爾及關島進行相關的青年大使訪問團計畫，今年的部分比較放在原住民的主軸上面。有關於是不是在明年可以結合相關運動外交的國際賽事來辦理，我們現在可以考慮朝這個方向思考擴大明年國際青年大使的想法。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒關係，我先尊重你們的工作期程安排，確實我們提早規劃是對的。我已經提到外交部國際青年大使，就算錯過跟柏君今年到美國去的時間，但我相信我們持續用運動外交作為主題應該是一個好的方向。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：不要忘記了，美加墨2026世界盃也是可以提早規劃的事情，好不好？"],["陳次長明祺：好，我們一定照辦。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。第二個，我們還有另外一個非常優秀的無任所大使戴資穎，今天的主題是南島的問題，我們來看一下，關於南島語系國家的總合外交，我認為戴資穎大使可以發揮很重要的角色。有鑑於印尼及馬來西亞這些國家對於羽球的熱愛，我相信如果透過運動外交的策略或相關有創意的方法，應該也可以促成更多的互動，對不對？"],["陳次長明祺：絕對是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那就拜託你們納入相關的規劃當中，不管是透過剛剛執行長這邊，你們必須用這個管道……"],["陳次長明祺：青年大使。"],["陳委員培瑜：或者是其他的管道。我想我就具體地要求外交部應該要持續跟MLB各隊台灣日規劃的可能性，我覺得我們一起加油。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：再來，搭配既有的青年大使計畫，今年看起來來不及了，明年或者後年還有美加墨世界盃。最後，運動外交要拜託你們納入相關外交部持續長期推動的規劃，因為它絕對不會只有運動部的事情，好嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：完全認可，而且我們會往這個方向來努力，謝謝委員的指導。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。我剛剛說的事情有機會在1個月內給我們相關的規劃報告嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：可以，我們以書面來回答委員辦公室。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒問題，謝謝次長，謝謝執行長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員的質詢。","接下來由鄭正鈐委員上臺質詢。鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來由李坤城委員上臺質詢。李坤城委員，李坤城委員，李坤城委員不在。","接下來由鄭天財委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-12","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","馬文君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra 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本席邀請李主任好 請李主任"},{"start":16.824,"end":32.893,"text":"我國個資外洩的事件層出不窮從健保、勞保、戶政體系、民間金融以及網路的平台民眾對於整個個資幾乎認為是沒有安全可言"},{"start":33.713,"end":56.187,"text":"在這樣的情況之下 雖然政府宣誓在今年的8月要設立個人資料保護委員會來回應憲法法庭要求建立獨立監督機制的裁定但是根據目前審備處所揭示的資料顯示各支會不僅在組織層級方面"},{"start":57.848,"end":80.869,"text":"他是偏低因為是三級單位那僅為行政院下面剛剛本席所說的三級機關他的人力編制監管以及法權那麼的一個權限都遠低於國際的一個標準甚至連基本的獨立性"},{"start":81.73,"end":105.731,"text":"大家都高度的質疑是不是能夠有所保障那所以呢更遑論真正的擔任起保護全民各自安全的一個責任所以本席要在這邊請教在這邊請教也就是各自會未來是否會具備獨立調查約談甚至對大型的平台跟企業進行採訪的法定權限請說明"},{"start":110.674,"end":137.468,"text":"好 謝謝委員因為這是法律規定出來的一個獨立機關然後這個各司法有賦予給它的獨立調查的一個權限所以它本身是一個實質的一個工作機關它不是一個只是做一個協調或是說實質的獨立機關本身再請教主任你認為列為三級單位它的層級是不是"},{"start":138.886,"end":164.145,"text":"陳吉太提請說明我也是不會影響因為在我們這兩個層次一個是這是法律賦予的他要去執法那不管是公務機關非公務機關因為他是有法律賦予的當然是法律賦予所以你認為不會那也很好我們希望在八月份成立的時候我們有所作為但是如果沒有實質的監督的力道"},{"start":164.685,"end":184.578,"text":"那各支會呢他不僅沒有辦法去回應憲法法庭對於獨立監督的機制的要求也沒有辦法讓民眾對於政府有能力守住他們各支個人的資料的一個安全性的一個信任所以這一點非常的重要一定要謹慎之"},{"start":198.427,"end":217.279,"text":"1660萬筆的這個病患資料外洩到最近的張機因為駭客攻擊導致整個系統癱亂人民對於這個個資呢是焦慮不斷的在提升所以行政院在3月27號通過了這個個人資料保護法的修正草案那他"},{"start":218.924,"end":237.991,"text":"針對於非公務機關的行政檢查權並加強對私部門各自使用的一個監督監管但是我們看到目前許多的中小企業他沒有資源去建構完整的資安管理體系那政府你如果以高密度"},{"start":239.011,"end":259.404,"text":"以反法的這個方式來進行稽查它可能會導致於它整個營運的一個負擔甚至相對會讓這個數位發展成為它另類的一個經濟壓力的一個來源所以本席要請教各自會定有明定六年過渡期六年的過渡期讓民眾"},{"start":263.564,"end":277.734,"text":"不知道你這個過渡期是要做什麼所以未來你是否會對於中小企業進行這個輔導讓中小企業它能夠有完整的一個治安你的六年過渡期到底是什麼"},{"start":279.199,"end":298.932,"text":"請教各位報告這個六年是某些目前已經有在進行具體監管的比如說都有定中央目的世界院都有定安危辦法的這些業者我們會在這個過渡期因為這個機關剛投射它也是需要很多經驗人力的成長那對於我們中小企業呢是"},{"start":300.148,"end":321.254,"text":"中小企業假如說目前沒有列在未來這個公告六年還沒有回收的其他部分就全部都是個人資料保護人員會來進行監管都會來監管對啊那你這個六年到底我們因為很多人打電話來問中小企業他說這個到底是要做什麼因為六年的過渡期我們可以做什麼政府可以協助我們什麼請說明"},{"start":322.714,"end":349.967,"text":"就是那個所謂的六年是指會先公告某些行業還是先由現有的中央目的事業主任跟地方政府什麼時候會公告就等到這個法要實施了8月份會同步嗎 會同步公告嗎我們努力 大法官當時候的期盼是說能夠盡早啦當然大法官沒有說已經宣告了8月 那請教8月要成立那這個相關的 你說的行業別"},{"start":351.067,"end":366.591,"text":"你們有沒有規管 到底你們一定有KPI啊 現在已經五月了有 是 我們也在跟各個中央目的地正在討論就是哪些現在還在討論 難怪民眾這麼害怕什麼時候會告訴我們當然這個法通過的時候接下來這幾個都會進行都會進行什麼都會進行我們剛才所說的 因為要做這個公告啊公告也是一個 是 那什麼時候要公告"},{"start":376.482,"end":400.876,"text":"公告當然是要先配合我們現在行政院指定施行日期的時間指定施行日期所以現在沒有辦法告訴社會大眾什麼時候公告我覺得還是要準備期啦要準備期讓我們民眾也不安的一個時期希望你們要依照法令好好趕快去歸管公告讓民眾了解"},{"start":402.079,"end":406.911,"text":"喔 了解齁 好你現在沒有辦法告訴本席齁那最後我請書法部請書法部 書法部"},{"start":415.078,"end":438.781,"text":"蘇花部我本期要跟你討論的是 最近來詐騙的犯罪橫行非常的多那被害人數跟金額一直在增加李主任你可以坐 謝謝那社群平台上面的詐騙廣告更是層出不窮 但是依照詐騙犯這個詐欺犯罪危害防治條例裡頭的第39條蘇花部的角色是什麼 你是主管機關"},{"start":439.762,"end":461.059,"text":"對不對 你是主管機關應對於未合理期間內移除的違法廣告的業者依法裁決但是到目前為止 包括Facebook等這些大型的投資詐騙廣告橫行這麼多年 冒用的這麼多很多的名人都被冒用但是速發部你到目前為止是都沒有開罰"},{"start":462.912,"end":487.36,"text":"但是我們社會上就明明樣態是這麼多你是主管機關單位更離譜的是刑事局本席給你一個數字刑事局在今年1月到3月只有這三個月通報臉書下架高達3.8萬則的詐騙廣告但是書發部你告訴我們的是說你尚未收到違法"},{"start":488.34,"end":501.368,"text":"的樣態 違法的樣態那等於是讓放任讓詐騙廣告不斷的去重複來刊登啊 你毫無實質的作為啊所以請教副座訴法部針對於臉書3.8萬則的詐騙廣告卻是零開罰的情況之下你們的作為是什麼請做說明"},{"start":515.531,"end":532.275,"text":"請做說明有關這3.8萬則的部分因為我們有規定的下架時間那臉書都在法定的時間內已經下架處理那這個部分就是我們也都有陸續的追蹤那這個很糟糕 本席跟你實質討論你說他在這個範圍內就下架那你不是平白讓他們就當這個是溫床嗎打炸釋法的目的是什麼"},{"start":543.874,"end":566.468,"text":"打造司法的目的是什麼是希望讓司法部你針對於這些的平台你更有監管的一個權利啊讓民眾可以安心啊你明明看到數量增加人數增加被詐騙的金額增加那你到底是你的法律面不夠還是你的執行面不夠"},{"start":567.871,"end":579.543,"text":"請做說明包委員這個部分首先還是要說明它已經在規定的時間下架這個部分規定的時間下架現在社會的樣態這麼嚴肅那你們要不要去討論要怎麼樣解決3.8萬刑事局要3.8萬則的廣告要下架那我們出發部毫無作為"},{"start":591.997,"end":614.549,"text":"要不要去檢討你的法律面跟你的執行面我們在執行面的部分也都有持續在跟業者溝通針對某些廣告特定的類型它內部的審查的部分的作為的精進這個部分我們產業署的部分也都有持續在跟業者溝通高高一尺 磨高一杖 本席具體建議針對於目前被詐騙的人數增加 金額增加"},{"start":615.629,"end":629.362,"text":"造成社會的不安請訴法部針對於你們的法律去研議你們的執行力去研議怎麼樣可以保障我們的人民啊不然我們通過打仗司法要做什麼"},{"start":631.704,"end":654.284,"text":"包委員這部分其他的目前刑事局有近期4月25號還有一些案件移送過來那這個相關的行政調查程序我們也在進行中那有確切違法行為的時候如果調查屬實我們還是會執行開放謝謝 趕快加油執行力要到法不夠趕快提出讓人民詐騙的事件可以降低好不好謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":671,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時58分）謝謝主席，本席邀請李主任。"],["主席：請李主任。"],["李主任世德：楊委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主任好。我國個資外洩的事件層出不窮，從健保、勞保、戶政體系、民間金融以及網路的平臺，對於整個個資，民眾認為幾乎是沒有安全可言。在這樣的情況之下，雖然政府宣示在今年8月要設立個人資料保護委員會來回應憲法法庭要求建立獨立監督機制的裁定，但是根據目前籌備處所揭示的資料顯示，個資會不僅在組織層級方面偏低，僅為行政院下面的三級機關，它的人力編制、監管以及權限都遠低於國際的標準，甚至連基本的獨立性，大家都高度的質疑是不是能夠有所保障，更遑論真正的擔任起保護全民個資安全的責任。所以本席要在這邊請教，個資會未來是否會具備獨立調查、約談甚至對大型平臺跟企業進行裁罰的法定權限？請說明。"],["李主任世德：好，謝謝委員，因為這是法律規定出來的一個獨立機關，然後個資法有賦予它獨立調查的權限，所以它本身是一個實質的工作機關，它不是只做協調或……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你說是實質的獨立機關，本席再請教主任，你認為它被列為三級單位，這樣的層級是不是太低？請說明。"],["李主任世德：不會，這不會影響，這有兩個層次，一個是這是法律賦予的，它要去執法，不管是公務機關、非公務機關，因為它是有法律賦予的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然是法律賦予的，所以你認為不會，那也很好，我們希望在8月份成立以後能夠有所作為，但是如果沒有實質監督的力道，個資會不僅沒有辦法去回應憲法法庭對於獨立監督機制的要求，也沒有辦法讓民眾信任政府有能力守住他們個人資料的安全性，所以這一點非常的重要，一定要謹慎。"],["李主任世德：我們會朝向獨立的監督。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要請教，近年來國內個資外洩，我們來討論目前的樣態，馬偕醫院有1,660萬筆的病患資料外洩，最近彰基因為駭客攻擊而導致整個系統癱瘓，人民對於個資安全的焦慮不斷地在提升，所以行政院在3月27號通過了個人資料保護法的修正草案，針對非公務機關的行政檢查權，並加強對私部門個資使用的監督、監管，但是我們看到目前許多的中小企業沒有資源去建構完整的資安管理體系，政府如果以高密度、頻繁的方式來進行稽查，可能會導致它整個營運的負擔加重，甚至會相對讓數位發展成為它另類的經濟壓力來源。所以本席要請教，對個資會有明定6年的過渡期，但是民眾不知道這個過渡期是要做什麼，所以未來你是否會對於中小企業進行輔導，讓中小企業能夠有完整的資安，請教你的6年過渡期到底是什麼？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，這個6年是某些目前已經有在進行具體監管的，比如說中央目的事業主管機關有訂安維辦法的這些業者，我們會在這個過渡期……因為這個機關剛籌設，它也需要很多經驗、人力的成長，所以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那對於我們的中小企業呢？"],["李主任世德：假如目前沒有列在未來這個公告6年還沒有回收的其它部分，就全部都是個人資料保護委員會來進行監管。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！都會來監管。有很多中小企業打電話來問：這個到底是要做什麼，在這6年的過渡期我們可以做什麼，政府可以協助我們什麼？請說明。"],["李主任世德：是，那個所謂的6年是指會先公告某些行業還是先由現有的中央目的事業主管機關跟地方政府……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候會公告？"],["李主任世德：就等到這個法要實施……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你是預計8月份，8月份會同步公告嗎？"],["李主任世德：我們努力，當然大法官當時是期盼能夠儘早，但是大法官沒有說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：已經宣告了8月要成立，那你們對這個相關的行業別有沒有規管？你們一定有KPI了，現在已經5月了啊！"],["李主任世德：是，我們正在跟各個中央目的事業主管機關討論……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在還在討論，難怪民眾這麼害怕，什麼時候會告訴我們你的目標？"],["李主任世德：當然在這個法通過之後，這幾個都會進行。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都會進行什麼？"],["李主任世德：都會進行我們剛才所說的，因為要做這個公告，公告也是一個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那什麼時候要公告？"],["李主任世德：公告當然是要配合行政院指定施行日期的時間。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你說指定施行日期，所以現在沒有辦法告訴社會大眾什麼時候公告。"],["李主任世德：我覺得還是要有準備期。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要有準備期，這是我們民眾也很不安的一個時期，所以希望你們要依照法令好好趕快去規管。"],["李主任世德：我們會加強跟外界的溝通。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要公告來讓民眾了解。"],["李主任世德：了解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你現在沒有辦法告訴本席，那最後我請數發部。"],["主席（邱委員志偉代）：請數發部。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席要跟數發部討論的是最近詐騙犯罪橫行，案件非常的多，被害人數跟金額一直在增加，在社群平臺上面的詐騙廣告更是層出不窮，但是依照詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第三十九條，數發部的角色是主管機關，對不對？你是主管機關，應對未於合理期間內移除違法廣告的業者依法裁罰，包括Facebook等大型平臺的投資詐騙廣告橫行這麼多年，很多的名人都被冒用，但是數發部到目前為止都沒有開罰。我們社會上明明有這麼多的樣態，你是主管機關，本席跟你講一個更離譜的數字，刑事局在今年1月到3月只有這3個月通報臉書下架高達3.8萬則的詐騙廣告，但是數發部卻跟我們說你尚未收到違法的樣態，那等於是放任讓詐騙廣告不斷地重複刊登，你毫無實質的作為啊！請教副座，在數發部針對臉書3.8萬則的詐騙廣告零開罰的情況之下，你們的作為是什麼？請做說明。"],["吳副處長宜倫：謝謝委員，有關這3.8萬則的部分，因為我們有規定下架的時間，那臉書已經都在法定的時間內下架處理，對這個部分我們也都有陸續地追蹤。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那這個很糟糕喔！本席跟你做實質的討論，你說它在這個範圍內就下架，那你不是平白讓他們就當這個是溫床嗎？打詐四法的目的是什麼？就是希望讓數發部針對這些平臺更有監管的權力，讓民眾可以安心，你明明看到數量增加、人數增加、被詐騙的金額增加，那到底是你的法律面不夠還是你的執行面不夠？請做說明。"],["吳副處長宜倫：報告委員，對這個部分首先還是要說明，就是它已經在規定的時間下架，因此沒有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你說在規定的時間下架，可是現在社會的樣態這麼嚴肅，那你們要不要去討論要怎麼樣解決？刑事局通報3.8萬則的廣告要下架，可是數發部毫無作為，要不要去檢討你的法律面跟你的執行面？"],["吳副處長宜倫：我們在執行面的部分都有持續在跟業者溝通，針對某些特定類型廣告內部審查作為的精進，這個部分我們產業署也都有持續在跟業者溝通。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：道高一尺魔高一丈，本席具體建議，目前被詐騙的人數增加、金額增加，造成社會的不安，請數發部針對你們的法律去研議你們的執行力、去研議怎麼樣可以保障我們的人民，要不然我們通過打詐四法要做什麼？"],["吳副處長宜倫：報告委員，這部分目前刑事局近期在4月25號還有一些案件移送過來，相關的行政調查程序我們也在進行中，如果有確切的違法行為經調查屬實，我們還是會執行開罰的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝，趕快加油，執行力要到，如果法不夠，就趕快提出，讓人民被詐騙的事件可以降低，好不好？"],["吳副處長宜倫：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，請回座。","下一位質詢請蔡易餘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-12","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 那請邱部長委員好"},{"start":17.314,"end":44.12,"text":"部長好 針對過去我國推行長照2.0的檢討還有我們未來3.0預期推動的藍圖我們本席也跟部長在委員會討論很多次當然我們也看到衛福部的努力可是還是每個月都看到一些長照悲歌部長對我們到現在有長照2.0你覺得執行成果你還滿意嗎"},{"start":46.966,"end":75.094,"text":"我想從長照的2.0從不管是在經費、人力、服務人數跟長照的據點還有服務的效率我剛剛在口頭報告的時候都有報告單單服務效率我們從51天變成4天我們長照據點從720次變成15000多次都是有幾十很多很多倍的一個成長照顧人力也增加了4倍所以基本上長照2.0的成果"},{"start":75.979,"end":91.074,"text":"是應該相當紅色但是一定還是需要再努力對可是我們看到單單上週4月28號到30號就發生兩件長照被割那共有五條性命不堪照護者"},{"start":92.129,"end":120.825,"text":"不堪負荷照顧者跟被照顧者一起走上絕路那我們現在的長照制度雖然針對我們失能程度有進行分類給予協助但是對於個案這些多重高風險的身份我們覺得他沒有給相對應更多的關懷暴露我們社安網跟我們長照資源分配在制度性的漏洞那我們之前三個禮拜"},{"start":121.985,"end":147.125,"text":"針對新北綜合這個個案照顧者非本國籍而且他沒有替代照顧者在語言文化資源各方面邊緣屬於高風險的個案那我們各縣市身障服務中心如果依照政策落實的運作早就應該要全面盤點這一方面需要協助的個案那為什麼都沒有盤點到"},{"start":148.834,"end":171.696,"text":"好我想高風險個案的一個盤點我想我們是一直在努力啦那至於說會發生像這樣的狀況我們真的是心裡都非常難過而且在這麼努力之下還是會發生這種情況所以我們還有改進的一個空間啦那這個部分是不是請次長跟我們"},{"start":173.877,"end":198.337,"text":"非常感謝圖委員的一個關心那其實這個部分我想我們除了長照之外其實另外一個就是社安網社安網的部分其實主要事實上就是有高負荷您現在所說真是有高負荷那我們這裡面其實大概我們的機制主要是透過糧表的這部分他來趕快呃那個呃呈報之後然後我們會趕快列入這個整個一些高關懷的這一個的呃的那家庭那這個機那我想"},{"start":199.578,"end":224.772,"text":"這個裡面還有另外一個是包括您剛剛所說的有關於跟跟身障照顧服務身障團體身障服務中心這邊的這個相關的整合問題那我想這個裡面的一些缺失我們確實應該也要來好好來檢討所以我們想了解一下這個問題是不是因為他出在沒有去實地訪視那沒有實地訪視我們也講過很多次是不是因為社工不足訪視員不足"},{"start":226.693,"end":244.152,"text":"你沒有去實際了解掌握他實際的狀況那照護者他的壓力又過重所以針對這些實際的狀況我們衛福部並沒有實際掌控是不是政府對於我們社工訪視員這部分沒有好好去做然後人員不足"},{"start":245.693,"end":267.532,"text":"報告委員 我想我們現在目前的機制就正如我剛剛所說的我們現在目前就是有長照的一個機制這邊主要是如果說民眾有任何問題主要都是用1966的專線他來跟我們提出這個需求另外一個就是剛剛委員您剛剛所說的有關於社工的部分主要是我們的社會安全網"},{"start":269.414,"end":282.209,"text":"這邊我們的一個部分我們會來加強那我們現在目前的社工人數社安網的部分也從原先是1500我們現在目前已經增加到5000到5900那這邊"},{"start":285.473,"end":291.557,"text":"其實即使是增加這樣的人數其實事實上真的確實還是不足所以也非常感謝也邀請委員我們這邊我們會來加強推動那這裡面我們主要事實上就是有這一個所謂的系統借街"},{"start":303.464,"end":329.214,"text":"系統介接的部分主要事實上是剛剛說的有關於老人保護特別是有關老人保護系統這邊我們主要事實上就是這個系統我們跟照管跟這個剛剛說照管的這個平台之間的一個相互的介接讓我們的社工在受案評估可以看到個案他這裡面剛剛委員您剛剛所提示的長照失能等級還有他的服務狀態我們現在目前是透過這個所謂系統介接"},{"start":330.034,"end":345.944,"text":"好部長次長其實我們今天最主要我們討論很多次那當然我們也給我們衛福部來肯定針對社工的薪資這次有比照軍公教來調薪那我們是希望這個獎勵制度跟津貼"},{"start":346.924,"end":371.089,"text":"還是要注意啦你像針對我們訪視的獎勵制度還有圍牢的津貼這部分應該要給他們多加獎勵要讓更多的人投入社工的行列然後以相對應的薪資來留住這些社工也讓更多的社工來加入避免有太多這些受害者因為社工沒有去訪視而造成這些悲劇"},{"start":372.844,"end":400.175,"text":"跟委員補充一下這個確實就是剛剛委員所說的就是我們有社工還是有欠缺那這個部分主要是要改善他的勞動條件還有最重要是他的薪資這個部分部長他也非常非常支持所以我們在這邊社安網的部分除了原先我們的社工之外另外其他就算是他不是我們的正式社工但是我們有委外的我們現在也一律部長的支持之下我們現在目前就跟軍公教調薪3%"},{"start":401.015,"end":407.182,"text":"好 我們希望社工社安網這部分還是要加強因為這講了很多次了好 那我們針對我們萊豬的部分我來請問一下好 請示"},{"start":414.229,"end":441.439,"text":"那部長當時之前我們農業部陳吉仲部長那之前他在發文有跟在野的立委說沒有全世界的萊豬都會進口台灣這件事情他那時候時空背景他說那台灣允許豬肉進口那時候是13國那這13國裡面有9個國家不允許使用萊克多巴胺那包含丹麥西班牙這些國家那有使用"},{"start":442.679,"end":470.998,"text":"萊劑的像纽西兰澳洲美国跟加拿大这四个国家那当然当时我们纽西兰因为没有出口记录那加拿大它出口它是不含萊劑那澳洲本身国内生产不使用萊劑所以那个时候只有美国出口到我们台湾含萊劑可是现在我们是不是陈吉仲部长这个说法是不是破功因为你看我们现在澳洲使用萊劑的"},{"start":472.393,"end":497.145,"text":"豬肉已經進口到台灣來那我們衛福部是不是針對農業部這部分要做一些調查好 謝謝委員是不是署長來回應一下委員好 這邊跟委員做報告我們國內其實允許豬肉進口的20國牛肉進口其實有6國其中世界裡面允許萊克多巴胺在豬肉使用有27國"},{"start":498.266,"end":519.702,"text":"那可以來到台灣的有六國其實這邊提到的我們提到的使用端的跟可以使用端跟進口端大概是以上的說明那進一步的因為我們面對的是現在是進口的這一塊對於我們已經設了國家的標準這個國家標準向下我們是針對萊克多巴殘留的標準"},{"start":520.743,"end":542.171,"text":"是0.001的標準那0.01的標準PPM的標準那這個標準的前提之下我們會用到這個來做管理那這樣子管理呢其實對國內外的任何的進口的來源都一體在私有但是之前只有美國有來濟那現在澳洲的也驗出來雖然說在我們的標準之內"},{"start":542.831,"end":564.168,"text":"可是現在以前只有美國那現在澳洲也有也難保其他的國家不會沒有那是不是針對澳洲的部分我們是不是跟農業部應該要去澳洲實地去做個瞭解是不是他們飼養的方式有加入這些萊劑導致送到台灣來的這些豬肉裡面在邊境查驗的時候驗出這個萊劑"},{"start":565.419,"end":589.685,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為澳洲其實是允許使用萊克多巴胺的他們本身飼養就允許了所以在國內是允許的所以在面對這樣的情形我們過去沒有去澳洲茶廠是因為澳洲豬肉來到台灣的歷史是非常非常長的歷史早在農委會衛福部 農委會房檢署的時候就有房檢署的時代裡面就有了"},{"start":590.245,"end":608.423,"text":"那就已經進來所以我們就沒有基於信賴保護原則就沒有再進一步去查查事實上沒有進一步去查查我們針對他的牛豬羊鹿肉在他們國內是一體適用的整體的查的一個查查的狀況所以我們針對那一部分在106年也做過系統性的查核"},{"start":608.943,"end":617.913,"text":"在系統上查核之後呢在112年的1月13號其實已經公告可以允許雖然我們沒有特別針對豬的但他針對整個在國內的是豬牛羊鹿其實是一體的"},{"start":624.139,"end":644.529,"text":"可是重點我們現在當然有源頭管理跟邊境茶葉那我們豬肉儀表板也有顯示可是現在我們針對這些豬肉產地我們有標示可是不標示萊劑那重點我們有查到有萊劑可是我們現在又不公布這個產品的流向是不是造成"},{"start":645.089,"end":674.324,"text":"民眾對於這個汁的權利他喪失了那如果說他不要吃含有萊劑的豬肉那他完全沒辦法掌控那如果你看現在澳洲今年進口336.6公噸那我們查驗到70.24公噸就含有萊劑等於五分之一的澳洲豬肉就含有萊劑那你又不公布流向那如果他擔心吃到的話那是不是你要讓民眾就拒絕吃澳洲豬肉"},{"start":674.804,"end":698.057,"text":"我跟委員這邊做報告一下因為這次抽到3批是在澳洲是同一家廠進來的有兩家貿易商同一家廠來這是第一個做說明第二件事情是我們針對這個豬肉牛肉的查查其實從101年的牛肉馬總統的時候開放的時候到110年的蔡總統開放豬肉的時候我們總共查出來有的牛肉是2493件"},{"start":699.958,"end":721.233,"text":"其中這查出來是萊克多巴胺是有檢出微量檢但都是合格的0.01ppm以下其中有6批的牛肉是不合格的我知道是合格的可是基本上應該讓民眾有選擇的權利他如果他不要吃友來記得他可以挑別的那你又不公佈流向他又認為澳洲"},{"start":722.194,"end":741.81,"text":"豬肉裡面現在最少有五分之一含有萊劑那你又不公佈流向又不標示這個萊劑那是不是變成說他只能放棄吃澳洲豬肉報告委員其實所謂的所謂的原產地的標示其實在國內國外的豬牛其實一體適用那因為"},{"start":743.411,"end":759.162,"text":"牛肉萊克多巴胺的部分2493件裡面其實沒有超標所以沒有特別讓民眾知道那在這種前提之下民眾不至於造成恐慌因為它在我們這邊的歷史已經是14、15年的歷史"},{"start":761.464,"end":783.536,"text":"我們是希望還是讓民眾有知的權利有選擇的權利我們衛福部針對這部分我相信其實民眾對這萊劑你說雖然吃了以後不會怎麼樣但是民眾還是會有恐慌他應該有選擇的權利我可以選擇不含萊劑的讓大家更安心謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":567,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（10時48分）謝謝主席。請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：部長好。針對過去我國推行長照2.0的檢討，還有未來3.0預期推動的藍圖，本席跟部長在委員會討論很多次，當然也看到衛福部的努力，可是還是每個月都看到一些長照悲歌。現在長照2.0的執行成果，你還滿意嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：長照2.0不管是在經費、人力、服務人數跟長照的據點，還有服務的效率，我剛剛在口頭報告的時候都有報告，單單服務效率從51天變成4天，長照據點從724個變成一萬五千多個，都是有很多倍的成長，照顧人力也增加了4倍，基本上長照2.0的成果應該是相當豐碩，但一定還是需要再努力。"],["涂委員權吉：可是我們看到單單上週的4月28號到30號就發生兩件長照悲歌，共有五條性命喪失，都是照護者不堪負荷，導致照顧者跟被照顧者一起走上絕路。現在的長照制度雖然針對失能程度有進行分類、給予協助，但是對於個案多重高風險的身分，沒有給相對應更多的關懷，暴露社安網跟長照資源分配制度性的漏洞。上個禮拜新北中和這個個案，照顧者非本國籍而且沒有替代照顧者，在語言、文化、資源各方面邊緣，屬於高風險個案。各縣市身障服務中心如果依照政策落實運作，早就應該要全面盤點這方面需要協助的個案，為什麼都沒有盤點到？"],["邱部長泰源：有關高風險個案的盤點，我們一直在努力，至於發生像這樣的狀況，我們心裡真的都非常難過，而且在這麼努力之下，竟還會發生這種情況，所以還有改進的空間。這個部分是不是請次長具體回答一下？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝涂委員的關心。這個部分除了長照之外，另外一個就是社安網，社安網主要就是針對高負荷，您現在所說的這個個案屬於高負荷，裡面的機制主要是透過量表，陳報之後會趕快列入高關懷家庭等等。還有另外一個是您剛剛所說的，有關身障服務中心相關人員的整合問題，針對這裡面的一些缺失，我們確實也應該要好好來檢討。"],["涂委員權吉：我想了解一下這個問題是不是因為出在沒有去實地訪視？我們也講過很多次，沒有實地訪視是不是因為社工不足、訪視員不足，沒有去實際了解、掌握實際的狀況，照護者的壓力又過重？所以針對這些實際的狀況，衛福部並沒有實際掌控，是不是政府對於社工、訪視員這部分沒有好好去做，然後人員不足？"],["呂次長建德：誠如我剛剛所說，目前有長照的機制，如果民眾有任何問題，主要都是用1966專線跟我們提出需求。另外一個就是委員剛剛所說的，有關社工的部分主要是在社會安全網，我們會來加強。目前社安網的社工人數從原先1,500人，已經增加到5,900人，即使增加這樣人數，事實上真的、確實還是不足……"],["涂委員權吉：還是不夠，對不對？"],["呂次長建德：所以我們會來加強推動。這裡面主要就是有所謂的系統介接，系統介接事實上是剛剛說的，特別是有關老人保護系統，主要是這個系統跟照管平臺之間的相互介接，讓社工在受案評估可以看到委員剛剛所提示的個案長照失能等級，還有服務狀態，我們目前是透過這個系統介接。"],["涂委員權吉：今天有個議題我們討論很多次，當然我也要肯定衛福部，就是這次社工的薪資有比照軍公教來調薪。"],["呂次長建德：是，沒錯，這是部長……"],["涂委員權吉：我們希望還是要注意這個獎勵制度跟津貼，針對訪視獎勵制度，還有危勞津貼，應該要給他們多加獎勵，讓更多的人投入社工的行列，以相對應的薪資留住這些社工，也讓更多社工加入，避免有太多受害者因為社工沒有去訪視而造成悲劇。"],["呂次長建德：我也跟委員補充一下，確實就是剛剛委員所說的，社工還是有欠缺，這個部分主要是要改善勞動條件，還有最重要的是薪資。這個部分部長也非常支持，所以在社安網的部分，除了原先的社工之外，另外就算是委外、不是我們的正式社工，在部長的支持之下，現在也一律跟軍公教一樣調薪3%。"],["涂委員權吉：我們希望社工、社安網還是要加強，因為講了很多次。"],["呂次長建德：好的。"],["涂委員權吉：針對萊豬，我來請問一下部長，之前農業部陳吉仲部長有發文跟在野立委說，沒有全世界的萊豬都會進口臺灣這件事情，他說臺灣允許豬肉進口，那時候的時空背景是13國，這13國裡面有9個國家不允許使用萊克多巴胺，包含丹麥、西班牙這些國家，有使用萊劑的是紐西蘭、澳洲、美國跟加拿大這4個國家。當時紐西蘭沒有出口紀錄，加拿大出口的不含萊劑，澳洲國內本身生產不使用萊劑，所以那個時候只有美國出口到臺灣含萊劑。可是現在陳吉仲部長的這個說法是不是破功？因為你看現在澳洲使用萊劑的豬肉已經進口到臺灣，衛福部是不是針對農業部這部分要做一些調查？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，由署長來回應一下。"],["姜署長至剛：委員好。國內允許豬肉進口有20國，牛肉進口有6國，其中世界上允許萊克多巴胺在豬肉使用的有27國，可以來到臺灣的有6國，這邊提到的是可以使用端跟進口端，大概是以上說明。進一步說明，因為我們現在面對的是進口的這一塊，而我們已經設了國家標準，在這個國家標準項下，針對萊克多巴胺殘留的標準是0.01ppm。在這個標準的前提之下，我們會照這個來管理，這樣的管理對國內外任何的進口來源都一體適用。"],["涂委員權吉：但是之前只有美國的有萊劑，現在澳洲的也驗出來，雖然在標準之內，可是以前只有美國，現在澳洲也有，難保其他國家沒有。針對澳洲的部分，你們是不是應該跟農業部去澳洲實地了解？是不是他們飼養的方式有加入萊劑，導致送到臺灣的這些豬肉，在邊境查驗的時候驗出萊劑？"],["姜署長至剛：因為歐洲允許使用萊克多巴胺，他們本身飼養就允許了，所以在國內是允許的。在面對這樣的情形，我們過去沒有去澳洲查廠，因為澳洲豬肉來到臺灣是非常長的歷史，早在農委會防檢局的時代就有。"],["涂委員權吉：可是以前查驗是沒有的，對不對？"],["姜署長至剛：防檢局的時代就有了、就已經進來，所以基於信賴保護原則，我們就沒有再進一步去查廠。事實上，雖然沒有進一步去查廠，但他們的牛、豬、羊、鹿肉在他們國內是一體適用整體查廠的狀況，所以我們針對那部分在106年也做過系統性的查核，在系統性查核之後，在112年1月13號已經公告可以允許。雖然我們沒有特別針對豬，但針對整個在國內的豬、牛、羊、鹿是一體的，所以我們才沒去。"],["涂委員權吉：雖然現在有源頭管理跟邊境查驗，豬肉儀表板會顯示，也有標示豬肉的產地，可是不標示萊劑。重點在於我們有查到有萊劑，可是現在又不公布產品流向，是不是造成民眾喪失了知的權利？如果不想要吃含有萊劑的豬肉，卻完全沒辦法掌控。今年從澳洲進口336.6公噸，查驗到70.24公噸含有萊劑，等於五分之一的澳洲豬肉含有萊劑，但你們又不公布流向，如果民眾擔心吃到的話，是不是要讓他就拒絕吃澳洲豬肉？"],["姜署長至剛：這次抽到三批是澳洲同一家廠進來的，有兩家貿易商從同一家廠來，這是第一個說明。第二件事情是針對豬肉、牛肉的查察，從101年馬總統時代開放牛肉進口之後，到110年蔡總統開放豬肉，總共查出有萊劑的牛肉是2,493件，其中查出有萊克多巴胺的都是微量檢出，但都是合格的，0.01ppm以下，其中有6批的牛肉是不合格的，被退驗。"],["涂委員權吉：我知道是合格的，可是基本上應該讓民眾有選擇的權利，如果他不要吃有萊劑的，他可以挑別的，那你又不公布流向，他又認為澳洲豬肉裡面現在最少有五分之一含有萊劑，你不公布流向，又不標示萊劑，是不是變成他只能放棄吃澳洲豬肉？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，其實所謂的原產地標示，在國內、國外的豬、牛一體適用，因為牛肉萊克多巴胺的部分2,493件裡面就是沒有超標，所以沒有特別讓民眾知道，那在這種前提之下，民眾不至於造成恐慌，因為它在我們這邊的歷史已經是14、15年的歷史，這個14、15年的歷史，我希望他們能夠安心。"],["涂委員權吉：我們是希望還是讓民眾有知的權利、有選擇的權利，衛福部，針對這部分，我相信其實民眾對萊劑，你說雖然吃了以後不會怎麼樣，但是民眾還是會恐慌，他應該有選擇的權利，他可以選擇不含萊劑的。謝謝。"],["姜署長至剛：讓大家更安心，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝涂委員，謝謝部長。"],["主席（涂委員權吉代）：謝謝，接下來請蘇清泉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳瑩","廖偉翔","陳培瑜","李坤城","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","劉書彬","劉建國","黃國昌","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲"],"page_start":163,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"11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這毫無國際觀反對納粹 反對侵害人權是國際普世價值如果講到這個叫做侵害他國內政 這是鬧第二次笑話那我們知道以色列現在有一個國會團在台灣"},{"start":93.57,"end":120.228,"text":"裡面有一個擔任過國防部長有一個擔任過農業部長有一個擔任過通訊部長三個內閣承認部長的重量級國會議員然後這個團我印象涵蓋三個到五個政黨人現在正在台灣所以我們看到歐洲的態度請問一下以色列來到台灣訪問的團對這件事情目前有沒有態度或者Maya駐台代表有沒有態度"},{"start":120.828,"end":137.701,"text":"我們請亞非斯,來請說。報告委員,目前的話我們還沒有看到他們這個團有相關的一些態度的一個說明。那以色列駐台協會呢?目前我們還沒有收到相關的一些資訊。因為通常他們會是第一個反應,可是講納粹,這一次是德國先有反應,所以這會變成國際事件,這會上國際媒體。"},{"start":141.164,"end":155.355,"text":"那我也相信這些駐台的代表們他們對狀況是很了解的他們其實就是怕國際誤以為台灣都這樣子他才點名特定政黨以免國際以為台灣人都這麼丟臉"},{"start":156.756,"end":185.131,"text":"而這個特定政黨不思反省還用網軍點名去攻擊德國駐台協會我覺得這個是本來是各政黨的內部我不想講但這個影響到台灣的國際形象所以外交部要妥適的處理是我們一定會跟這個各個國家能夠說明這個不是台灣的主流因為它裡面也特別提到在國際的評比不管是言論自由或者是所謂的施政的透明度反貪腐指數"},{"start":186.252,"end":206.5,"text":"或者是民主的排名台灣幾乎都亞洲排名前兩名國際排名我們甚至於是網路自由度亞洲的排名第一名這樣的國家去類比二戰時候的納粹已經是不倫不類了那如果要攻擊所謂的獨裁我們隔壁那個國家中國最獨裁你就拿那個類比就好了"},{"start":207.591,"end":222.563,"text":"所以這個事情不僅是把內政政黨的惡鬥搞到鬧國際笑話傷害的不是政黨之間的利益傷害的是台灣國際形象所以這個事情本席在這邊第一題就拿出來請外交部"},{"start":223.444,"end":247.532,"text":"可能有一個縮帖好好說明那這些政黨我相信這些駐台代表包含歐洲各國他特別會點名政黨其實相當程度是認同台灣整體不會這樣子我認識的台灣人民甚至我認識的國民黨朋友也沒有人這麼傻我不知道這個政黨怎麼會這樣子好我第二個要請問的是北美斯各位先請回北美斯有沒有注意到"},{"start":249.008,"end":274.986,"text":"在美國國務院有一個所謂的各國的關係的有個定義表比方說這個United StatesTaiwan Relations這個United States Relations with Taiwan有一個定義表那它不是針對台灣啦它對全世界各地各國都會有這樣的定義表這個定義表上一次review更新是什麼時候"},{"start":277.494,"end":292.843,"text":"包委員那是在台灣部分是今年年初的時候二月嘛我印象川普就任後1月20號就職二月份才剛更新對台對中國大概對130幾國的關係表有重新定義那昨天"},{"start":294.131,"end":313.822,"text":"這一個國務院的對各國的關係表通通撤下來我看到有有媒體報導說台灣的被這個拉下來不是我看起來他是全部都有重新更新在更新中的時候二月份更新的頁面現在都看不見了北美是有沒有掌握了解目前是什麼狀況"},{"start":315.813,"end":343.505,"text":"其實這個情形已經有好幾個禮拜了那我們其實之前就已經問過就是透過AIT還有就是華府都有了解那美方的回應是說其實這個並不是針對台灣或任何是全面性的因為主要是那裡面它是美國100那裡面有100多個國家的外面關係介紹它是全面下架因為它說裡面很多國家的這些資訊都是兩年以上都沒有再更新"},{"start":343.905,"end":358.639,"text":"把國務院二月份剛更新嘛現在在五月份才過了不到一季他又全部重新要review一次他是把所有的他現在所有全部在更新所以全部先拉下來那台灣的頁面會不會有所變動"},{"start":360.221,"end":380.294,"text":"這個我們還要再繼續了解但目前就是說他們是要全面檢視然後在最後再重新把可能要掌握一下有關台灣的部分有關對亞洲各國日本中國我們台灣第一島鏈相關國家我們不能等它發生可能要先了解它大概有些更新如果台灣就跟二月份一樣不變能夠事前掌握"},{"start":382.461,"end":411.276,"text":"這一個川普在5月6號說了一件我覺得蠻有意思的就是這標準的川普風格說這兩天會宣布一個他用的英文叫做Earth Shattering就是地球會打球會噹噹就震動地球的大消息而且告訴大家這跟貿易無關那而且對那個國家他有個特定國是一個他們想要得到卻一直沒有得到的一個大消息大發展"},{"start":412.745,"end":442.171,"text":"你們有沒有試著去猜謎看看或掌握這個情資他在講什麼這個我們大概不太好去猜啦但是說就這個台美關係的部分我們現在看到的包括他在這個聯合國首次的發聲這個聯合國我要糾正一下2758號決議文事實上從Greenfield擔任美國駐聯合國大使是一直到之前之前川普第一任的最後一任駐聯合國大使"},{"start":443.459,"end":456.693,"text":"都有講過2758號決議文是在兩年前兩個助理次卿來到台灣把所有駐台的外國辦事處韓邦邦交國邀集開會請他們就2758號決議文的正確"},{"start":460.256,"end":475.461,"text":"決議呢進行詮釋鼓勵大家認知到當年的2758號決議文那個文本大家隨便網路調都有了裡面根本沒有提到台灣講的是中國代表權由所謂的毛澤東的這個中華人民共和國所取代"},{"start":476.54,"end":482.266,"text":"結束完全沒有提到台灣所以2758號決議文無赦台灣這也就是這兩天剛通過的一個台灣國際團結法案的根本精神而台灣國際團結法案是美國的國會通過的"},{"start":495.78,"end":508.023,"text":"那在國際社會上大家現在包含了英國、澳洲、加拿大、美國、荷蘭、比利時、捷克、歐盟各國、馬紹爾群島都通過2758號決議文無色台灣美國有好幾個州的州議會也通過2758號決議文無色台灣你知道這是什麼嗎"},{"start":514.745,"end":534.758,"text":"這是台灣2300萬人參與國際社會的法律基礎那中國當然緊張因為中國就是從1971年開始拿2758號決議文說你們台灣已經被中國代表了所以你沒有資格參與國際社會任何跟台灣建交的或者跟中國建交的都要跟台灣斷交它的根基就是2758號"},{"start":535.999,"end":540.345,"text":"所以2758號決議文就是阻止台灣2300萬人國際參與的法律戰中國已經濫用了將近40年他亂搞這個東西錯誤的扭曲用這個阻止台灣參加IKEA INTERPOL"},{"start":554.926,"end":578.587,"text":"包含我們一直要參加的這個世界衛生組織都是跟2758號有關所以當你看到國際主流社會都在通過說對啊那個文字內容根本沒有談到台灣那中國會反擊索馬利亞就是一個反擊他叫一個虎仔國叫中國的附庸國虎仔國索馬利亞出來說什麼"},{"start":579.548,"end":589.123,"text":"根據2758號決議文持台灣的護照的不得入境索馬利亞誰要去他那裡啊索馬利亞那個海盜國我坦白講台灣去那邊很少啊"},{"start":590.069,"end":617.751,"text":"索馬利亞是一個不值得尊重國家但是他這個動作就顯示中國想要利用他的胡宰國來玩2758號決議文的法律戰而這法律戰建立在事實的根基上本來就無色台灣如果無色台灣美國兩年前兩位助理次卿來到台灣鼓勵世界各國了解2758號決議文的真實"},{"start":618.672,"end":628.18,"text":"然後鼓勵大家跟台灣可以進行官方的往來這是一個很大的突破所以我現在你剛才提到2758號我先跳離開那一題"},{"start":629.434,"end":649.307,"text":"根據不管是美國剛通過的國際團結法案或者美國在聯合國的大使我印象有三次提到27582的原因文而且是跨民主共和黨兩任政府那目前這個國際法理戰中國除了用索馬利亞以外它還會你們有沒有掌握情資它還會叫哪些胡宅國出來講"},{"start":651.856,"end":677.075,"text":"你不好用這個字啊他其他的他的相關的邦交國我想他在全球南方喔那麼在這個索馬利亞這個事情並不是單獨的例子那包括之前跟我們斷交的南泰的很多的國家跟他建交的時候都重新的在陳述了他每一個國家建交都會拿2758號出來說出來但我說會做大到動作說禁止持我們國家護照的人不能入境目前還有沒有其他國家"},{"start":677.697,"end":695.633,"text":"目前我們並沒有感覺到有這樣的一個跡象會擴大那麼畢竟每個國家跟中國的關係禁止台灣拿台灣護照的路徑以現在國際社會來講損失的可能是那個國家這絕對是 台灣的經貿實力你不來就不來 不來就不來我們台灣是有實力的國家所以因為時間的關係"},{"start":698.616,"end":716.889,"text":"這個2758號決議文世界各國都根據事實做出對台灣國際參與有利的決議我本心很遺憾我們在立法院全世界民主國家現在我們台灣的國會無法就這個通過在來黨要提出的是恢復一中的決議文那個會鬧國際笑話所以2758號決議文在國際的氛圍這樣的狀況下我們在"},{"start":721.992,"end":749.499,"text":"這一次不管是世衛大會或者是Interpol ICAO這些相關民航組織等等兩年一次的會議各國應該會在那邊再重申2758號不應該作為阻止台灣參與的法律基礎是那我們外交部應該加大一些遊說的動作但我還是很遺憾我們對國際發聲的沒宣相關的費用被藍白刪到變零元你們是砍到零嘛是有沒有剩一塊"},{"start":750.598,"end":766.107,"text":"有沒有剩一塊好像沒有你知道砍到零跟剩一塊差別在哪裡剩一塊還可以追加還可以救回來砍到變零根據預算法我們還不能找其他理由編回來一個國家的外交是代表國家的聲音聲音被"},{"start":767.088,"end":790.384,"text":"把喉嚨聲帶都割掉了,竟然是我們自己國家國會所為,這個是比較遺憾但是外交人員辛苦了,還是要幫國家發聲月間時間太短,沒辦法把題目問完但是請注意到就是,目前美國正在發聲的國際重新定義以及當然川普個人主義,個人色彩很重所以他所有重新定義,創下了一些先例"},{"start":791.184,"end":800.322,"text":"要往對台灣有利走如果對台灣不利的時候這個先例一旦設下來我們可能將來會費很大力氣才能拉回來可能北美斯跟香港同仁要加油一下謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":478,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時45分）謝謝主席，麻煩政次。"],["陳次長明祺：委員好。"],["王委員定宇：次長，我先從德國在臺協會這個聲明講起，在外交場域上，其實駐地單位、使館、代表處點名該國的特定政黨進行批評非常罕見，這已經是第二次。所謂的特定政黨就是國民黨上次有一個年輕人穿著納粹衣服去法院，這一次是直接點名國民黨跟朱立倫，我看德國在臺協會的那個聲明裡面，是點名臺灣的特定政黨跟黨主席，用詞很重，叫做失望與不安，不僅是德國在臺協會，歐盟分享了德國在臺協會的這個官方聲明，那我們都知道他們的態度，有人說德國沒有權力干涉臺灣內政，這毫無國際觀，反對納粹、反對侵害人權，是國際普世價值，如果講到這個叫做侵害他國內政，是鬧第二次笑話。","我們知道以色列現在有一個國衛團在臺灣，裡面有一個擔任過國防部長，有一個擔任過農業部長，有一個擔任過通訊部長，三個內閣曾任部長的重量級國會議員，我印象這個團涵蓋三個到五個政黨，人現在正在臺灣，所以我們看到歐洲的態度了。請問一下，以色列來到臺灣訪問的團對這件事情目前有沒有態度？或者駐臺代表瑪雅有沒有態度？"],["陳次長明祺：我請亞非司來說明。"],["王委員定宇：請說。"],["陳副司長詠博：報告委員，目前的話，我們還沒有看到這個團有相關態度的說明。"],["王委員定宇：那以色列駐臺協會呢？"],["陳副司長詠博：目前我們還沒有收到相關的一些資訊。"],["王委員定宇：因為通常他們會是第一個有反應的，可是講納粹這一次是德國先有反應，所以這個會變國際事件，這會上國際媒體，我也相信這些駐臺的代表們，他們對狀況是很了解的。他們其實就是怕國際誤以為臺灣都這樣子，才點名特定政黨，以免國際以為臺灣人都這麼丟臉，而這個特定政黨不思反省，還用網軍點名去攻擊德國在臺協會，我覺得這個本來是各政黨的內部，我不想講，但這個影響到臺灣的國際形象，所以外交部要妥適處理。"],["陳次長明祺：我們一定會跟各個國家說明，這個不是臺灣的主流。"],["王委員定宇：因為它裡面特別提到在國際的評比，不管是言論自由或是施政透明度、反貪腐指數、民主排名，臺灣幾乎都亞洲排名前兩名，甚至我們的網路自由度是亞洲排名第一名，把這樣的國家去類比二戰時候的納粹已經是不倫不類了，如果要攻擊所謂的獨裁，我們隔壁那個國家──中國最獨裁，你就拿那個類比就好了。這個事情不僅是把內政政黨的惡鬥搞到鬧國際笑話，傷害的不是政黨之間的利益，傷害的是臺灣國際形象，所以這個事情本席在這邊第一題就拿出來討論，請外交部可能要有一個說帖好好說明，我相信這些歐洲各國駐臺代表，會特別點名政黨，其實相當程度是認同臺灣整體不會這樣子。我認識的臺灣人民，甚至我認識國民黨朋友也沒有人「低路」了，我不知道這個政黨怎麼會這樣子。","第二個要請問的是北美司，各位先請回。北美司有沒有注意到美國國務院有一個所謂各國關係的定義表？比方說U.S Relations With Taiwan有一個定義表，當然他們不是針對臺灣，它對全世界各地、各國都會有這樣的定義表，這個定義表上一次review（更新）是什麼時候？"],["焦副司長國祐：報告委員，臺灣的部分是今年年初。"],["王委員定宇：2月。我印象川普1月20日就任後，2月份才剛更新對臺灣、對中國等，大概對一百三十幾國的關係表有重新定義，昨天國務院對各國的關係表通通撤下來，我看到有媒體報導說臺灣被拉下來，不是！我看起來是全部都重新更新，2月份更新的頁面現在都看不見了，北美司有沒有掌握、了解目前是什麼狀況？"],["焦副司長國祐：報告委員，有的，其實這個情形已經有好幾個禮拜了，我們之前就已經透過AIT還有華府都有了解，美方回應這個並不是針對臺灣或任何國家，是全面性的，主要是那裡面有一百多個國家的對美關係介紹，是全面下架，因為它說裡面很多國家的資訊兩年以上都沒有更新。"],["王委員定宇：國務院2月份剛更新。"],["焦副司長國祐：是。"],["王委員定宇：現在才5月份，才過了不到一季，又全部重新要review一次。"],["焦副司長國祐：他是把所有的這個……"],["王委員定宇：我知道，現在所有全部在更新，所以全部都先拉下來，那臺灣的頁面會不會有所變動？"],["焦副司長國祐：這個我們還要再繼續了解，但目前就是他們要全面檢視，然後最後再重新放上去。"],["王委員定宇：那可能要掌握一下有關臺灣的部分、有關對亞洲各國、日本、中國、臺灣及第一島鏈相關國家，不能等它發生，要先了解大概有哪些更新，如果臺灣就跟2月份一樣不變，也要能夠事前掌握。"],["焦副司長國祐：是。"],["王委員定宇：川普5月6號說了一件我覺得蠻有意思的事，這是標準的川普風格，川普說這兩天會宣布一個事情，他用的英文叫做earth-shattering，就是地球會震動的大消息，並告訴大家這跟貿易無關，而且對那個國家，他有個特定國是一個他們常想要得到，卻一直沒有得到的一個大消息、大發展，你們有沒有試著去猜謎看看或掌握這個情資，他在講什麼？"],["陳次長明祺：這個我們大概不太好去猜，但是就臺美關係的部分，我們現在看到，包括他在聯合國首次的發聲……"],["王委員定宇：我要糾正一下，聯合國2758號決議文，事實上，從Greenfield擔任美國駐聯合國大使一直到之前川普第一任的最後一任駐聯合國大使都有講過2758號決議文，在兩年前兩個助理次卿來到臺灣，把所有駐臺的外國辦事處，含邦交國邀集開會，請他們就2758號決議文的正確決議進行詮釋，鼓勵大家認知當年的2758號決議文，那個文本大家隨便網路調就有了，裡面根本沒有提到臺灣，講的是中國代表權由毛澤東的中華人民共和國所取代，結束，完全沒有提到臺灣，所以2758號決議文無涉臺灣。"],["陳次長明祺：對。"],["王委員定宇：這也就是這兩天剛通過臺灣國際團結法案的根本精神。"],["陳次長明祺：沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：而臺灣國際團結法案是美國的國會通過的，在國際社會上，現在包含了英國、澳洲、加拿大、美國、荷蘭、比利時、捷克、歐盟各國、馬紹爾群島都通過2758號決議文無涉臺灣，美國有好幾個州的州議會也通過2758號決議文無涉臺灣，你知道這是什麼嗎？這是臺灣2,300萬人參與國際社會的法律基礎，中國當然緊張，因為中國就是從1971年開始拿2758號決議文說，臺灣已經被中國代表了，所以沒有資格參與國際社會，任何跟中國建交的都要跟臺灣斷交，他的根基就是2758號，所以2758號決議文就是阻止臺灣2,300萬人國際參與的法律戰，中國已經濫用了將近40年，就是他亂搞這個東西。"],["陳次長明祺：沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：錯誤的扭曲，用這個阻止臺灣參加ICAO、INTERPOL，包括我們一直要參加的世界衛生組織，都是跟2758號有關，所以當你看到國際主流社會都通過文字內容根本沒有談到臺灣，中國會反擊，索馬利亞就是一個反擊，叫中國的附庸國「虎仔國」索馬利亞出來說，根據2758號決議文，持臺灣護照的，不得入境索馬利亞。誰要去他那裡？索馬利亞那個海盜國，我坦白講，臺灣去那邊的很少，索馬利亞是一個不值得尊重國家，但是這個動作就顯示中國想要利用他的「虎仔國」來玩2758號決議文的法律戰，而這法律戰建立在事實的根基上，本來就無涉臺灣，如果無涉臺灣，美國兩年前兩位助理次卿來到臺灣，鼓勵世界各國了解2758號決議文的真實，鼓勵大家跟臺灣可以進行官方的往來，這是一個很大的突破。你剛才提到這個2758號，我先跳離開那一題。","不管是根據美國剛通過的國際團結法案或者美國在聯合國的大使，我印象有三次提到2758號決議文，而且是跨民主、共和黨兩任政府，目前這個國際法理戰，中國除了用索馬利亞以外，你們有沒有掌握情資，他還會叫哪些「虎仔國」出來講？你不好用這個字，他的其他相關邦交國……"],["陳次長明祺：我想他在全球南方，在索馬利亞這個事情並不是單獨的例子。"],["王委員定宇：當然。"],["陳次長明祺：包括之前跟我們斷交的很多南太國家跟他建交的時候，都重新再陳述了他的所謂……然後他會……"],["王委員定宇：他每一個國家建交，都會拿2758號出來說嘴，但我的意思是，目前還有沒有其他國家會做大動作禁止持我們國家護照的人不能入境？"],["陳次長明祺：目前我們並沒有感覺到這樣的跡象會擴大，畢竟每個國家跟中國的關係不太……"],["王委員定宇：禁止拿臺灣護照的入境，以現在國際社會來講，損失的可能是那個國家。"],["陳次長明祺：這絕對是。"],["王委員定宇：以臺灣的經貿實力，你不要就不要，不然來試試看嘛！臺灣還是有實力的國家。針對這個2758號決議文，世界各國都根據事實做出對臺灣國際參與有利的決議，本席很遺憾，全世界民主國家，現在大概就臺灣的國會無法就這個通過，在野黨要提出的是恢復一中的決議文，那個會鬧國際笑話，所以2758號決議文，在這樣的國際氛圍下，不管是世衛大會或是INTERPOL、ICAO這些相關民航組織等等兩年一次的會議，各國應該會在那邊再重申，2758號不應該作為阻止臺灣參與的法律基礎，外交部應該加大一些遊說的動作。但我還是很遺憾，我們對國際發聲的媒宣相關費用被藍、白刪到變0元，你們是砍到0元嘛？有沒有剩1塊？"],["陳次長明祺：有沒有剩1塊？好像沒有？"],["王委員定宇：你知道砍到0元跟剩1塊差別在哪裡？剩1塊還可以追加、還可以救回來。"],["陳次長明祺：項目還在。"],["王委員定宇：砍到變0，根據預算法，我們還不能找其他理由編回來。一個國家的外交是代表國家的聲音，把喉嚨、聲帶都割掉了，竟然是我們自己國家的國會所為，這個是比較遺憾，但是外交人員辛苦了。"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝。"],["王委員定宇：還是要幫國家發聲。因為今天時間太短，沒辦法把題目問完，但是請注意目前美國正在發生的國際重新定義，當然川普個人色彩很重，所以他所有重新定義創下了一些先例，要往對臺灣有利走，如果對臺灣不利的時候，這個先例一旦設下來，我們可能將來會費很大力氣才能拉回來，北美司跟相關同仁要加油一下，謝謝。"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇委員的質詢。","現在休息5分鐘，5分鐘之後繼續詢答。","休息（10時58分）","繼續開會（11時4分）"],["主席：現在開始開會。","請陳培瑜委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-12","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","馬文君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra 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疏視察好 請李主任還有...疏視察這個...我先請教一下這個護證師疏視察這個..."},{"start":28.439,"end":58.062,"text":"護身事務所上級主管機關是不是民政處是民政處處長是政務官嘛民政處長是政務官也有可能是事務官嘛是以這個基隆來看看這個他應該是政務官啦那護所主任是公務人員嘛事務官嘛對不對是那政務官跟事務官然後把各自啊洩密做政治用途該當何罪"},{"start":60.653,"end":84.967,"text":"這很嚴重的事情耶公權力去侵犯個人的資料是由主管機關洩漏那民政處上面的護證事務所中央主管機關就是護證師嘛如何防備還是單就處長個人的行為以及兩個護所主任去配合"},{"start":87.535,"end":114.599,"text":"是相關的細節現在檢調正在進行偵查你想為什麼會會出現這種狀況護身事務所主任是公務人員欸對不對那後來他做那個那麼嚴重違法事項那當然是上面指示嘛那上面是處長嘛那處長他有沒有這個權力可以指揮這個護身事務所有時候不一定有也許有更上面對不對"},{"start":115.956,"end":130.695,"text":"公務機關竟然帶頭去侵害個人的這個資料這非常嚴重的事情啊你護身師主管機關在中央啊我只能監督你我不能監督高雄基隆市啊所以這部分啊你們看怎麼去防弊是"},{"start":131.997,"end":158.639,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們已經在5月1號的時候有發文通令全國的互證機關就是說他們在執行相關的業務的時候必須依照相關的法規譬如說個人資料保護法就是說他們在查詢戶籍資料的時候是必須是在法定職權裡面才能夠去進行的這是基本的你還在通令這代表說這個螺絲鬆了"},{"start":160.712,"end":189.527,"text":"我當過民政處長四年民政局長一年我對護證事務所當然業務它的服務它的便民各項這個檢證措施一定要做好因為會民服務嘛但對個人的資料保護一定要遵守相關法律規定如果有任何一點我知道我一定嚴辦每次開主管護證主管會報我都三聲五令"},{"start":190.675,"end":206.571,"text":"所有的戶籍同仁啊 是為民服務你有任何客訴 或者你有任何資料外洩 或者你有不當使用個人資料會用你的護證系統 去查個人的個資啊如果讓我知道 我另研辦不僅烤雞打餅啊 我移送檢調"},{"start":215.324,"end":236.513,"text":"這個可能中央要更嚴厲一點好 謝謝蘇市長來 請問一下李主任針對這個Data Branch你這個整個外洩的這個部分這個有沒有相關的分級管理的機制"},{"start":237.78,"end":263.353,"text":"比如說這個你GDPR或者日本的個資保護法 韓國的PIPA這些他們都有通報的實現而且有分級管理那麼現行的相關的規定 現行的法規如果你們成立之後這個相關的草案內容我看不出有通報實現也看不出有分級管理你們目前的相關怎麼樣"},{"start":265.083,"end":277.698,"text":"跟委員報告 現在當然是規劃 某法剛剛所關切的這幾個問題要在執法 那邊有一個授權的執法要再去訂剛剛所說的那個通報實現 封禁管理 封禁法裡面不會訂"},{"start":281.004,"end":304.126,"text":"母法裡面規定母法裡面已經有先處理到說通報的這個範圍所以會有產生一個分級的概念到底是哪些重大的這個情況比如說是你假如說是特種個人資料的或者說比數比較大的有明文規定嗎會在那個執法裡面把它具體明文規定出來是執法還是母法是沒有錯執法嘛對"},{"start":305.587,"end":329.595,"text":"你執法也要趕快這個有相關的配方出來通報實現呢?通報實現目前也是要在執法裡面去規範所以現在母法通過你執法就馬上要產生嘛對不對?是,它產生之後才可以決定這個法怎麼做但你執法有沒有相關的概念?你在用歐盟模式還是用韓國新加坡的模式?是,我們先請同仁補充"},{"start":331.656,"end":356.586,"text":"是 報告委員 因為其實像通報實現的部分像我們其實是有參考日本跟韓國的規定那其實他們在通報實現方面 因為其實會有一些狀況比如說他可能有一些不可抗力的室友的時候他可能會有一些需要做彈性的處理所以如果一旦在母法裡面把他定死了其實在實務運作上會比較所以我說你司法要有相關的這個方向嘛"},{"start":357.626,"end":379.775,"text":"那你看是5日內還是72小時還是更久應該是說原則上可能會朝向72小時但是會有一些歐盟模式吧會有一些例外的情況要去做彈性處理好這個部分你們在執法裡面不管是分級管理或者是這個通報時間都會執法裡面訂定會把它訂清楚 對那DPO的部分我們討論DPO你現在在條文裡面"},{"start":383.154,"end":405.029,"text":"你規定這個特定的公務機關特定公務機關跟高風險處理者需要設置什麼叫特定公務機關我們目前是所有公務機關都要設所有公務機關包括地方政府對中央跟地方一二三級都要目前的規劃是都要設戶政事務所都要"},{"start":405.942,"end":433.299,"text":"要 但是會先以地方來講的話是先應該是以機關的形態先去呈現的所以所有公務機關一二三級你知道最這個比方說民政署下面的負責事務所或者地政事務所只要是機關形態的都要設置這個DPO目前的規劃是這樣所以這個部分是在母法裡面就會規定"},{"start":435.063,"end":441.294,"text":"母法已經規定是公務機關都要設所有公務機關都要?是好 那另外能不能委外?"},{"start":443.769,"end":464.73,"text":"你要找那麼多DPO人才何其容易目前現在他是用一個任務型去兼任的任務型他就有內部他的這個行政的這個層級或者行政的規範你如果他層級不夠高你上面壓力下來他就不敢辦"},{"start":466.536,"end":481.068,"text":"是不是這樣子 我們現在的寫法是副首長跟適當的人員那因為這邊執法我們還要 這裡面也有一個執法要去訂明正處長都可以公然違法了那你要不要考慮到委外DPO那部分的一個 很多國家包括德國 包括韓國 新加坡都有讓DPO的管道能夠多元化"},{"start":495.56,"end":516.454,"text":"韓國在公部門的這部分還是維持是他們內部人員因為這有組織文化又怕說外部去了解但是你看新加坡新加坡他是允許聘用外部的顧問新加坡因為只有非公務機關各執法只有非公務機關適用那歐盟模式也是可以委由第三方啊"},{"start":517.074,"end":532.662,"text":"是 但是因為它是給各個會員國 它只是說現在規定各個會員國的你應該很清楚說能不能委外 委外的機制是什麼條件是什麼 可能要講清楚不能完全沒有DPA DPA不能委外 不能叫第三方那獨立性的保障呢"},{"start":533.629,"end":562.28,"text":"當然他這部分在執行的時候他需要一些外部的資源協助是OK啦但是我們目前你如果全部內部你不要說你副首長擔任他那個獨立性就會受到影響嘛對不對目前現在這個DPO我們不是說朝向說他要變成是一個小的獨立機關的概念最主要是先要有一個這個人在組織裡面要專門去負責有關於各自保護管理的一個文化的推進所以我們先朝兼任的方式先處理"},{"start":563.32,"end":579.522,"text":"那下一階段要不要繼續再去把他的強化有這個職位就要發揮功能另外這個你要有專業的要求這個也沒有明定這個在執法裡面也沒有定你若副所長擔任他的副所長也許也是是政務官也有可能啊"},{"start":580.475,"end":600.969,"text":"對不對 那也不是 工人掉下去也不是這方面的專業啊所以你們對這個資格跟他的專業啊你不能說一律就是由副所長來擔任會在執法裡面把這部分要如何去指定相當的人員裡面執法會再定出來 不會說隨意派一個來做這個我質詢不會無邊際的時間到了我就會應該喔 這個"},{"start":607.894,"end":634.928,"text":"國會的質詢應該在委員會的質詢應該比照這個院會時間到了就斷麥否則這個無邊際質詢齁這個高鐵我一言再言也要也要邀請委員要上來啦我要必須要齁來我要遵循邀請委員所以不能無邊際質詢啦我不是跟你說我是跟那個趙偉說啦我剛剛有一瞬間想說那我是不是要斷麥啊"},{"start":638.683,"end":639.205,"text":"不過我沒有這樣做謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":587,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（10時47分）謝謝主席，請籌備處李主任跟戶政司蘇視察。"],["主席：請李主任還有蘇視察。"],["李主任世德：委員早。"],["邱委員志偉：我先請教一下戶政司蘇視察，戶政事務所的上級主管機關是不是民政處？"],["蘇簡任視察誌盟：是。"],["邱委員志偉：民政處處長是政務官，也有可能是事務官。"],["蘇簡任視察誌盟：是。"],["邱委員志偉：以基隆來看，他應該是政務官，那戶所主任是公務人員、事務官，對不對？"],["蘇簡任視察誌盟：是。"],["邱委員志偉：那政務官跟事務官把個資洩漏出去做政治用途，該當何罪？這是很嚴重的事情，公權力去侵犯個人資料，是由主管機關洩漏，那民政處下面的戶政事務所，中央主管機關就戶政司，如何防弊？還是這是單就那個處長個人的行為，以及這兩個戶所主任去配合？"],["蘇簡任視察誌盟：相關的細節現在檢調正在進行偵查。"],["邱委員志偉：為什麼會出現這種狀況？戶政事務所主任是公務人員耶！他做那麼嚴重的違法事項，當然是上面指示嘛！上面是處長，處長他有沒有權力可以指揮戶政事務所？有時候不一定有，也許有更上面的，對不對？公務機關竟然帶頭去侵害個人的資料，是非常嚴重的事情，戶政司是在中央的主管機關，我只能監督你，我不能監督到基隆市，所以這部分你們看看怎麼去防弊。"],["蘇簡任視察誌盟：是，跟委員報告，我們已經在5月1號發文通令全國的戶政機關，在執行相關業務的時候必須依照相關的法規，譬如個人資料保護法，就是他們在查詢戶籍資料的時候必須在法定職權裡面才能夠去進行，然後我們……"],["邱委員志偉：這是基本的，你還在通令！就代表這個螺絲鬆了。我當過民政處長4年、民政局長1年，對於戶政事務所，當然它的業務、它的服務、它的便民，各項簡政措施一定要做好，因為是為民服務，但是對個人的資料保護一定要遵守相關的法律規定，如果有任何一點讓我知道，我一定嚴辦，每次開戶政主管會報我都三申五令，所有的戶政同仁是為民服務，你有任何客訴，或者你有任何資料外洩，或者你有不當使用個人資料，或用你的戶政系統去查個人的個資，如果讓我知道，我一定嚴辦，不僅考績打丙，我移送檢調，這個可能中央要更嚴厲一點。"],["蘇簡任視察誌盟：是。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝蘇視察。請問李主任，針對data breach（個資外洩）的這個部分有沒有相關的分級管理機制？比如GDPR或者日本的個資保護法、韓國的PIPA都有通報時限，而且有分級管理，我們現行的相關規定、現行的法規，如果你們成立之後，在相關的草案內容裡我看不出有通報時限，也看不出有分級管理，你們目前的想法是怎麼樣？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，剛剛所關切的這幾個問題，現在是規劃在母法那邊要有一個授權的子法再去訂剛剛所說的時限……"],["邱委員志偉：通報時限、分級管理，所以母法裡面不會訂？"],["李主任世德：因為母法裡面已經有先處理到通報的範圍，所以會產生一個分級的概念，到底是哪些重大的情況，比如是特種個人資料的或者是筆數比較大的，這些目前是這樣處理。"],["邱委員志偉：有明文規定嗎？"],["李主任世德：會在子法裡面把它具體列入。"],["邱委員志偉：是子法還是母法？"],["李主任世德：是，沒有錯。"],["邱委員志偉：子法嘛！"],["李主任世德：對。"],["邱委員志偉：你的子法也要趕快有相關的配套方案出來。"],["李主任世德：會。"],["邱委員志偉：通報時限呢？"],["李主任世德：通報時限目前也是要在子法裡面去規範……"],["邱委員志偉：所以現在母法通過，你的子法馬上就要產生，對不對？"],["李主任世德：是，它產生之後才可以決定這個法……"],["邱委員志偉：那你的子法有沒有相關的概念，你是用歐盟模式，還是用韓國、新加坡的模式？"],["李主任世德：我們先請同仁補充說明。"],["林組長裕嘉：報告委員，通報時限的部分我們其實是有參考日本跟韓國的規定，因為他們在通報時限方面其實會有一些狀況，比如說有一些不可抗力的事由時，他可能會有一些需要去做彈性的處理，所以如果一旦在母法裡面把它定死了，其實在實務運作上……"],["邱委員志偉：我是說你的子法要有相關的方向嘛！"],["林組長裕嘉：是。"],["邱委員志偉：那是5日內還是72小時？還是更久？"],["林組長裕嘉：原則上可能會朝向72小時，但是會有一些……"],["邱委員志偉：就是歐盟模式嘛！"],["林組長裕嘉：但是會有一些例外的情況要去做彈性處理。"],["邱委員志偉：好，不管是分級管理或者是通報時限都會在子法裡面訂定。"],["李主任世德：是，會把它定清楚。"],["邱委員志偉：那我們討論一下DPO，現在在條文裡面規定特定公務機關跟高風險處理者需要設置，什麼叫特定公務機關？"],["李主任世德：我們目前是所有的公務機關都要設。"],["邱委員志偉：所有的公務機關，包括地方政府？"],["李主任世德：對，中央跟地方。"],["邱委員志偉：一、二、三級都要？"],["李主任世德：目前的規劃是都要設。"],["邱委員志偉：戶政事務所要不要？"],["李主任世德：要喔！但是以地方來講的話，應該是以機關的型態先去呈現，所以地方政府也要設。"],["邱委員志偉：所以所有一、二、三級的公務機關，比如說民政處下面的戶政事務所或者地政事務所都要設置這個DPO？"],["李主任世德：是，只要是機關型態的都要，目前的規劃是這樣。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得戶政很需要，這個部分是在母法裡面就會規定？"],["李主任世德：母法已經規定公務機關都要設。"],["邱委員志偉：所有的公務機關都要？"],["李主任世德：是。"],["邱委員志偉：好，另外，能不能委外？你要找那麼多DPO人才，何其容易。"],["李主任世德：對，目前他是用一個任務型去兼任的，但因為這有涉及到……"],["邱委員志偉：任務型有內部行政的層級或者行政的規範，如果他的層級不夠高，上面的壓力下來，他就不敢辦，是不是這樣子？"],["李主任世德：我們現在的寫法是副首長跟適當的人員，因為這裡面又有一個子法要去定。"],["邱委員志偉：民政處長都可以公然違法了，那你有沒有考慮過委外DPO？"],["李主任世德：那部分的……"],["邱委員志偉：很多國家，包括德國、韓國、新加坡都有，讓DPO的管道能夠多元化。"],["李主任世德：韓國在公部門的部分還是維持內部人員，因為這有組織文化，又怕外部去了解機關的……"],["邱委員志偉：對啦！但是你看新加坡，他是允許聘用外部的顧問擔任DPO。"],["李主任世德：因為新加坡的個資法只有非公務機關適用。"],["邱委員志偉：歐盟的模式也是可以委由第三方啊！"],["李主任世德：是，但是因為它是給各個會員國，只是說這樣規定各個會員國的……"],["邱委員志偉：你應該很清楚能不能委外，委外的機制是什麼、條件是什麼可能要講清楚，不能說DPO完全不能委外、不能交由第三方，那獨立性的保障呢？"],["李主任世德：當然這部分在執行的時候，他需要一些外部的資源協助是OK，但是我們目前……"],["邱委員志偉：如果全部是內部，你說由副首長擔任，他的獨立性就會受到影響，對不對？"],["李主任世德：目前這個DPO我們不是朝向又變成一個小的獨立機關的概念，最主要是先要有一個人在組織裡面專門去負責有關於個資保護管理的文化推進，所以我們先朝兼任的方式處理，下一階段要不要繼續再去強化……"],["邱委員志偉：有這個職位就要發揮功能嘛！"],["李主任世德：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，這個資格要有專業的要求，這個有沒有明定？"],["李主任世德：會，這個在子法裡面也會定。"],["邱委員志偉：如果是由副首長擔任，副首長也有可能是政務官，公務人員調來調去，他可能也不是這方面專業，所以你們對資格跟專業方面要有要求，不能一律就是由副首長來擔任。"],["李主任世德：這部分要如何去指定相當的人員，子法會再定出來，不會隨意派一個來做。"],["邱委員志偉：我質詢不會無邊際的，時間到了，我就會……"],["李主任世德：謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：在委員會的質詢應該比照院會，時間到了就斷麥，否則無邊際質詢，高鐵我一延再延……","楊瓊瓔委員要上來了，我要尊重楊瓊瓔委員，所以不能無邊際質詢啦！我不是跟你說，我是跟召委說。"],["主席：我剛有一瞬間想說那我是不是要斷麥啊！不過我沒有這樣做。謝謝。","請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-12","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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我們是預估我是委員委員好 今年我們是有預估預估是3.14這是我們一處預估那假設新台幣兌美元匯率跌破澎湃南房線的話那你的經濟成長率大概是抓多少"},{"start":50.458,"end":68.331,"text":"因為我們還會要看整個一個那個就是關稅的一個情形還有其他一些相關的因素在做評估如果就澎湃南的防線突破的話那你覺得對國內的經濟成長的影響情況是如何應該是會有我們這個部分我們預估是會再降低一點的"},{"start":78.407,"end":97.373,"text":"降低一點點,會不會降低0.1還是0.01降0.1%一個百分點百分之0.1,所以你們是有沙盤推演那請問澎淮南防線是新台幣多少對一美元多少,這個部分要"},{"start":99.344,"end":112.954,"text":"你剛剛怎麼會有0.01的那個數字怎麼來的?我再想,當然我不曉得他們怎麼做一個假設,我不曉得他的假設"},{"start":116.276,"end":134.919,"text":"不過我答覆委員你在說彭淮南黃線的時候我會有一個疑問我就說好像從來我們總裁也都從來沒有講過他的黃線是在哪裡的所以那個委員在講說彭淮南黃線的時候我就總覺得怎麼會有這個彭淮南黃線的這個字眼出現那你請幕僚"},{"start":144.921,"end":159.394,"text":"沒有啊中央銀行裡面的我們從來從不談這個沒有就是說而且這個防線你如果說是這樣我再猜可能是那個幕僚財下過去歷史的報章那大概都是市場就是說蓬蓬財的那個什麼防線事實上我跟委員報告"},{"start":169.824,"end":173.046,"text":"韓國的央行總裁李昌雍你熟悉嗎我熟悉啊"},{"start":188.334,"end":203.307,"text":"他為什麼說這一波亞幣的大幅上漲是因為來自美國的壓力啊我這個前幾個委員都問過了你怎麼回答不是我怎麼回答因為他講了這個的時候有很多人確定包括學者有去"},{"start":211.414,"end":230.089,"text":"包括就是說他們去從他的講話裡面去好好的這個是韓國人的去翻譯好好的翻譯說這個報導跟他所說的是根本就是說差距很大所以又是一場誤會我也不敢這麼說因為我不曉得韓語一場誤會就是一場夢啦可是總裁如果說委員要做這樣的一個說法的話我也贊同"},{"start":240.227,"end":253.274,"text":"你覺得這是一場夢那總是要有夢醒時刻夢醒時分就是總裁你在前幾天我看到你大家都那麼熟我覺得你有苦難掩所以我剛剛所以我剛剛我就說一開始的時候我有一個澄清有一個聲明澄清就是說"},{"start":267.381,"end":275.827,"text":"因為我的口才不好所以有些時候講話我講話的時候會結結巴巴他們都把他解釋說我有藍炎之癮對啊 那我就馬上要澄清他確實沒有這回事然後他又說因為有藍炎之癮所以我不善於說謊這個說謊又把他放進來確實沒有這回事沒有這回事總裁如果你沒有藍炎之癮的話"},{"start":298.283,"end":309.842,"text":"看強美元還是看弱美元所以我剛剛就又再回答了我說歷任的財政部長都說要強勢美元"},{"start":310.785,"end":322.857,"text":"那只有一個財政部長就前任的財政部長他稍微改口他認為說匯率是由市場供需來決定沒有所謂的強勢美元缺弱勢美元總裁就聽聽就好了"},{"start":327.891,"end":334.698,"text":"現在你說的也不算,葉門說的也不算,現在全世界只有一個人說的算,川普為了要讓美國偉大,那你覺得美國為了走勢會強勢嗎?"},{"start":349.814,"end":352.655,"text":"我跟委員報告啦我的邏輯啦我請教嘛總裁他如果說你是說可能他強勢好那如果美元如果強勢的話那請問美國怎麼樣偉大美國製造的東西他怎麼賣出口啊沒有出口他怎麼製造順差啊"},{"start":371.243,"end":391.594,"text":"所以這是一個很簡單的邏輯那我想請問一下總裁就是說你現在外匯存底是跟2300萬的國民息息相關你保管處理這些資產央行中央銀行法的第二條寫得很清楚有一條是什麼"},{"start":392.754,"end":409.061,"text":"貨幣要維持穩定嘛對那既然要維持穩定你為什麼不在這個幣別裡面在我兩年前三年前我就建議啊總裁你考不考慮買一些比特幣那時候是一個是六千塊美金啊"},{"start":409.761,"end":433.423,"text":"我還曾經多次的建議央行不論是在這邊或在文園我說這個黃金看起來閃閃發光每盎司是一千兩百七十塊的時候我說那可不可以說基建賣幾百個賣五百個因為你們那個台灣銀行有一個什麼楊天立不是承認部的"},{"start":434.366,"end":443.029,"text":"那個黃金網子啊他們都有研究我都請教了所以假設1780塊1270塊每盎司的時候你買進1000億台幣那1000億的話"},{"start":454.373,"end":461.418,"text":"請問總裁,今天的話,你等於是賺了多少錢?是啦,我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我...我..."},{"start":474.308,"end":495.924,"text":"總裁 那個委員 我要答問你兩個問題第一個 你就是說為什麼不買比特幣 不買黃金那我事實上 委員上一次也回答 提問了這個問題那我也就是說 我非常佩服委員的"},{"start":497.507,"end":510.992,"text":"的遠見但是呢我就說從中央銀行的一個manage叫我們外存體的一個準則來看的話那又是另外一回事我記得我有做這樣的一個說明第一個我要謝謝總裁對我的佩服我也接受嘛"},{"start":520.055,"end":534.393,"text":"可是面對外在情懷的變化我要提醒總裁全世界包括日本包括挪威包括很多國家現在美國公債的部分他們全部開始套跑一步一步的解決請問"},{"start":539.679,"end":553.868,"text":"請問總裁你對於央行現在所持有的美國公債你會不會採取減持的動作你現在那個委員你又再講就是說92%的我們都持有公債不對"},{"start":554.988,"end":567.596,"text":"這個副總裁講的不是我講的嗎沒有我們副總裁他在市長在主席的在啊我上一次的時候他已經糾正了有糾正是副總裁講的我們已經澄清了嘛副總裁講92他說80幾這樣減少了啦92現在剩80幾"},{"start":572.299,"end":579.681,"text":"所以我也不必要再重複不過呢我跟委員報告啦至於就是說你說我們也回答啦就是說要調整中央銀行要調整我們都是很靈活的我們現在手上有沒有人民幣我們也有一些幾%"},{"start":598.175,"end":622.179,"text":"不高你為什麼不高一點呢因為他的利率現在第一個我要說明的就是說第一個人民幣我們為什麼握有人幣最主要是因為我們台商跟台商他有人民幣的需求他的settlement需要到人民幣所以他的一個流動性我們必須要我們必須要握有這樣的一個流動性這是第一點"},{"start":623.019,"end":641.641,"text":"但是呢我們也不能就說我們隨時我就像你說的啊我們隨時在調整你看看那個人民幣的利率一直掉啊利率一直掉那美國的利率會不會掉目前他還是點幾啊可是下個月呢"},{"start":642.622,"end":655.986,"text":"我不曉得那這樣子總統我跟你賭一碗牛肉麵今年美國的利率一定會往下調這個我想我不必要那個啦我們不用賭啦我來請你一碗牛肉麵我們不用賭那你請我我來請大家啦"},{"start":664.649,"end":686.845,"text":"那個因為時間關係最後就問一下謝謝楊總裁我問一下那個財政部那個阮市長那你每次官基金啟動都是互足有功啊都穩住了那你現在其實目前進場大概多少金額這個包委員這個不方便在這邊說明但是私底下我再那這次應該也會賺錢吧會不會"},{"start":688.866,"end":706.641,"text":"國安基金不是以賺錢為目的啦我想委員很清楚嘛我們最主要是要穩定股市我知道你們這一波又買了很多台積電因為畢竟他的權值比較大好 謝謝 那請國發會那我就要請一下那個高副主委我們手上很多的台積電"},{"start":709.162,"end":723.94,"text":"從兩年前到現在有沒有賣過沒有一張都沒賣是 因為它是我們的護國神山所以不會賣基本上因為是我們的關鍵產業OK 可是我們的護國神山已經變成美積電了"},{"start":725.722,"end":729.263,"text":"不會所以台積電會守住會不會跌我們對台積電有充分的信心"},{"start":745.188,"end":765.621,"text":"我覺得我們國人都應該要有這樣的信息另外一個就是國發基金現在整個加起來總市值是多少兩兆 因為我們的資產有兩兆對去年表現的情況是平均的嗎我們營養有三百多億去年OK 好 謝謝是 謝謝好 謝謝林平強委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":566,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（10時36分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，可否請主計長及財政部次長？"],["主席：請主計長還有財政部。"],["羅委員明才：還有央行楊總裁、國發會高副主委。"],["主席：請楊總裁及國發會副主委。"],["羅委員明才：首先請問一下主計長，我們今年的經濟成長率是多少？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。今年我們有預估是3.14%，這是我們主計處的預估。"],["羅委員明才：假設新臺幣兌美元匯率跌破彭淮南防線的話，那你的經濟成長率大概是抓多少？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：因為我們還要看整個的關稅情形，還有其他相關的因素再做評估，第1季其實是很好。"],["羅委員明才：是，那如果就彭淮南防線突破的話，你覺得對國內經濟成長的影響情況是如何？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：應該是會有……這個部分我們預估是會再降低一點點。"],["羅委員明才：降低一點點？會不會降低0.1%，還是0.01%？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：0.1%。"],["羅委員明才：0.1%，所以你們是有沙盤推演。那請問彭淮南防線是新臺幣多少兌一美元？那你剛剛怎麼會有0.01%的那個數字，是怎麼來的？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！當然……"],["羅委員明才：楊總裁，從哪裡來的？"],["楊總裁金龍：當然我不曉得他們做什麼假設……"],["羅委員明才：那央行算的經濟……"],["楊總裁金龍：我不曉得他的假設，不過我答復委員，你在說彭淮南防線的時候，我也有一個疑問，我就說好像我們總裁也都從來沒有講過他的防線是在哪裡。"],["羅委員明才：報紙都看見了，是26塊半，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以委員在講彭淮南防線的時候我總覺得，我就說怎麼會有彭淮南防線的這個字眼出現？"],["羅委員明才：那你請幕僚看看……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有啊！中央銀行裡面，我們從來不談這個，沒有，而且這個防線，你如果說是這樣，我在猜可能是那個……"],["羅委員明才：你就請你的幕僚查一下過去歷史的報章雜誌。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，那大概都是市場……就是說彭總裁的那個什麼防線是……事實上我跟委員報告……"],["羅委員明才：所以沒有彭淮南防線？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我跟委員誠實地報告……"],["羅委員明才：那有沒有楊金龍防線？"],["楊總裁金龍：那當然就更沒有，更不可能。"],["羅委員明才：都沒有？這樣子，總裁，韓國的央行總裁李昌鏞，你熟悉嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我熟悉。"],["羅委員明才：他為什麼說這一波亞幣大幅上漲是因為來自美國的壓力？"],["楊總裁金龍：前幾個委員也都問過了。"],["羅委員明才：都問過了，那你怎麼回答？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為他講了這個，有很多人確定……包括學者有去……包括就是他們從他的講話裡面去好好地……這個是韓國人，去好好翻譯，這個報導跟他所說的根本就是差距很大。"],["羅委員明才：所以又是一場誤會？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也不敢這麼說。"],["羅委員明才：那就是一場誤會？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為我不曉得韓語。"],["羅委員明才：一場誤會就是一場夢了啊！可是總裁……"],["楊總裁金龍：那如果委員要做這樣一個說法的話，我也贊同。"],["羅委員明才：你覺得這個是一場夢？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒錯。"],["羅委員明才：好，那總是要有夢醒時分啊！就是在前幾天我看到你……大家都那麼熟喔！我覺得你……"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟他熟啊！"],["羅委員明才：有苦難言耶！"],["楊總裁金龍：是嘛！所以我剛剛……"],["羅委員明才：一個記者會……"],["楊總裁金龍：所以剛剛我就說，一開始的時候我有一個澄清、有一個聲明，澄清說因為我的口才不好……"],["羅委員明才：你客氣了。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以有時候我講話的時候會結結巴巴，他們都解釋成我有難言之隱，那我就馬上要澄清啊！確實沒有這回事。"],["羅委員明才：那好……"],["楊總裁金龍：然後他又說，因為我有難言之隱，我不善於說謊，他又把說謊放進來。"],["羅委員明才：所以總裁……"],["楊總裁金龍：確實沒有這回事。"],["羅委員明才：所以沒有這回事。總裁，如果你沒有難言之隱的話，你是會看強美元還是看弱美元？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我剛剛就又再回答了，我說歷任的財政部長都說要強勢美元，只有一個財政部長，就是前任的葉倫財政部長稍微改口，他認為匯率是由市場供需決定，沒有所謂的強勢美元、弱勢美元。"],["羅委員明才：等一下，總裁，這個聽聽就好了。現在你說的也不算，葉倫說的也不算，現在全世界……"],["楊總裁金龍：那當然，因為他已經是前朝的財政部長。"],["羅委員明才：全世界只有一個人說了算，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我同意你的說法。"],["羅委員明才：是誰？就是川普說了才算。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["羅委員明才：川普為了要讓美國偉大，那你覺得美國未來走勢會強勢嗎？如果強勢……"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，我的邏輯……"],["羅委員明才：我請教總裁，你是說可能它強勢，美元如果強勢的話，那請問美國怎麼樣偉大？美國製造的東西怎麼賣出口？沒有出口，他要怎麼製造順差？所以這是一個很簡單的邏輯。我想請問總裁，現在你外匯存底是跟2,300萬國民息息相關……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["羅委員明才：你保管、處理這些資產，中央銀行法第二條寫得很清楚，有一條是什麼？貨幣要維持穩定。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["羅委員明才：既然要維持穩定，你為什麼不在這個幣別裡面……兩年前、三年前我就建議：總裁，你考不考慮買一些比特幣？那時候一個是6,000塊美金。我還曾經多次建議央行，不論是在這邊或在……我說黃金看起來閃閃發光，每盎司是1,270塊的時候，我說那可不可以加減買幾百億、買500億？因為臺灣銀行有一個楊天立，他不是財政部的黃金王子嗎？他們都有研究，我都請教了。所以假設每盎司是1,270塊的時候，你買進1,000億的話，請問總裁，今天你等於是賺了多少錢？賺1,000億嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦！委員，我跟你報告……"],["羅委員明才：可是我一直搞不清楚的就是，為什麼央行要把92%的外匯存底全部押在美元公債或美元的資產上面？"],["楊總裁金龍：我答復你兩個問題。第一個，你說為什麼不買比特幣、不買黃金，事實上委員上一次也垂詢了這個問題，那我也說我非常佩服委員的遠見。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：但是我就說從中央銀行的manage，就是我們外匯存底的準則來看的話，那又是另外一回事。我記得我有做這樣的說明，這是第一點。我就佩服你啊！"],["羅委員明才：第一個，我要謝謝總裁對我的佩服，我也接收，可是面對外在情況的變化，我要提醒總裁，全世界包括日本、挪威等很多國家，在美國公債的部分，他們全部開始落跑，一步一步地解約，請問總裁，對於央行現在所持有的美國公債，你會不會採取減持的動作？"],["楊總裁金龍：我先回答你這個問題，委員，你現在又在講我們92%都持有公債，不對！"],["羅委員明才：這個是副總裁講的，不是我講的。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我們副總裁在……"],["羅委員明才：賴士葆主席也在。"],["楊總裁金龍：我上一次的時候……"],["羅委員明才：這是誰講的？"],["主席：他已經糾正了，這是副總裁講的。"],["楊總裁金龍：我已經澄清了。"],["主席：副總裁講92%，他講百分之八十幾。"],["羅委員明才：減少了，92%現在剩百分之八十幾？"],["主席：92%是錯的。"],["楊總裁金龍：我已經講了，所以我也不必要再重複了。"],["主席：沒有92%。"],["羅委員明才：沒有92%，那是哪一位副總裁，今天有沒有來？"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我跟委員報告，至於你說的我們也回答了，就是中央銀行要調整，我們都是很靈活的。"],["羅委員明才：我們現在手上有沒有人民幣？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們也有一些。"],["羅委員明才：百分之幾？"],["楊總裁金龍：不高。"],["羅委員明才：為什麼不高一點？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為它的利率，第一個，我要說明的是，我們為什麼握有人民幣，最主要是因為我們的臺商有人民幣的需求，它的settlement需要人民幣，所以為了它的流動性，我們必須要握有這樣的流動性，這是第一點。但是就像你說的，我們隨時在調整，人民幣的利率一直掉，你沒有發現到嗎？"],["羅委員明才：美國的利率會不會掉？"],["楊總裁金龍：目前它還有百分之四點幾。"],["羅委員明才：可是下個月呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我不曉得。"],["羅委員明才：總裁，我跟你賭一碗牛肉麵，今年美國的利率一定會往下調。"],["楊總裁金龍：我想不必要，我們不用賭，我來請你一碗牛肉麵，我們不用賭。"],["羅委員明才：你要請我吃喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們不用賭，我請你吃。"],["羅委員明才：你請我，我請大家。因為時間關係，謝謝楊總裁，我最後問一下財政部阮次長，每次國安基金啟動都是護主有功，都穩住了。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員明才：截至目前進場大概多少金額？"],["阮次長清華：報告委員，這個不方便在這邊說明，私底下我再跟你報告。"],["羅委員明才：這一次應該也會賺錢，會不會？"],["阮次長清華：國安基金不是以賺錢為目的，我想委員很清楚，我們最主要是要穩定股市。"],["羅委員明才：我知道你們這一波又買了很多台積電。"],["阮次長清華：因為畢竟它的權值比較大。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。","請國發會高副主委。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：我們手上有很多台積電，從兩年前到現在有沒有賣過？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：沒有。"],["羅委員明才：一張都沒賣？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是，因為它是我們的護國神山。"],["羅委員明才：所以不會賣？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：基本上，因為它是我們的關鍵產業。"],["羅委員明才：可是我們的護國神山已經變成「美積電」了。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：不會。"],["羅委員明才：所以台積電……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：它的關鍵技術還是會根留臺灣。"],["羅委員明才：所以台積電會守住？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：是的。"],["羅委員明才：會不會跌？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：股價我們不會預測。"],["羅委員明才：這是一個理財操作，如果你覺得它會跌……"],["高副主任委員仙桂：因為我們對台積電有充分的信心，我覺得我們國人都應該要有這樣的信心。"],["羅委員明才：另外，國發基金現在整個加起來的總市值是多少？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們的資產有兩兆。"],["羅委員明才：去年表現的情況是平均多少？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我們去年的盈餘有三百多億。"],["羅委員明才：OK，謝謝。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才委員的質詢。","我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時49分）","繼續開會（10時59分）"],["主席：報告委員會，我們繼續開會。","下一位請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","王世堅","林思銘","涂權吉","王鴻薇","謝龍介","陳玉珍","陳冠廷","林楚茵","翁曉玲"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00007"],"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謝謝召委是不是請我們部長和署長江署長委員好 委員請多保重對 我也希望不要感冒"},{"start":30.242,"end":56.318,"text":"這個署長曾經在2021年說過當時是教授的身份嘛那以Codex的標準每天要吃6公斤的萊豬連續吃好幾年才會超標但是這跟中毒優勢兩件事政府會把關請大家買豬肉食的時候要放輕鬆如果依照署長這個標準大概食安就是沒有食安的問題只有吃到毒物才會死的問題那我今天講說"},{"start":58.16,"end":80.482,"text":"這六天裡面來從短短六天就有驗出三批來寄的這個豬肉產品雖然都在那個我們的標準裡面但六天就有三批其實我剛才有沒有提到有退回去的有幾批減出啦減出但沒鈔票有三批那有退關的嗎"},{"start":82.652,"end":99.953,"text":"從租業方面沒有都沒有好因為署長部長和署長要提醒你喔這個對於食安的態度要兢兢業業尤其是我自己做一個媽媽作為一個家庭裡面會開火的"},{"start":101.252,"end":118.188,"text":"食安的把關者其實我的標準我個人的標準不是只有吃了會中毒吃了會有落毒的方向我自己個人是我不想要吃到那我想很多媽媽跟我一樣的心情"},{"start":119.039,"end":135.412,"text":"那我們想的說那就是透明知的權利知的權利其實就是這樣子而已你其實對抗WTO的貿易架構就是這樣子你強迫我們開了邊界我們就讓你進來但我消費者可以不買啊"},{"start":136.485,"end":164.605,"text":"就全體的世界貿易都一直都有這種情節啊你強迫我開放那我就是我可以選擇不吃不買但是國家要扮演什麼你沒有去標籤化它但是你不可以講說這個署長你丟了一句說沒見過有人吃萊克多巴胺牛肉中毒的用這種態度來善效擔心的民眾我覺得唯一不需要的是這樣子你應該想的是"},{"start":165.626,"end":189.596,"text":"人民真的很擔心因為我有選擇不吃的這個權利啊我自己因為每個人的健康管理風險都是每個人在負責的我不想要而我有慢性的我代謝疾病我慢性三高的所以這種狀況裡面你在講講得很得意洋洋說你們科學的方法在把關你們的這個border protection whatBPI你們在做什麼其實"},{"start":193.652,"end":203.414,"text":"我們都希望有政府是邊境裡面源頭把關邊境如果6天就也撿到3批雖然沒有超標那有沒有可能"},{"start":203.959,"end":220.871,"text":"在邊境裡面其實就應該要把查驗的這個強度稍微提高一下加強邊境和後市場的稽查那你在這個過程當中你一直以幾個數據來告訴我們譬如說你的新聞稿寫2021年1月1號到2025年4月30邊境報驗的豬肉和豬雜碎共計兩萬"},{"start":228.556,"end":231.098,"text":"5466批110年到114年4月間後市場對進口及國產豬肉的產品共檢驗18501件檢驗這個萊克多巴胺結果皆合格"},{"start":244.103,"end":259.151,"text":"你是這樣寫的嘛但是我要問你是說你是不是應該公佈的不是這五年裡面我減了多少每一年你減多少因為我們知道剛開始的那一年減的數量是最多的也就是2021年110年減的批次最多那到2024、2025年其實都遞減了"},{"start":269.167,"end":283.571,"text":"所以邊境抽驗的比例其實是大幅遞減的在用遞減裡面六天就檢驗出三批含有萊劑雖然沒有超標但是我們說如果在那個主管機關的立場你應該告訴大家說那我來加強邊境的把關我是不是要把抽驗的批次再增加一點當你增加了檢驗出來了覺得風險沒有增加"},{"start":297.13,"end":315.956,"text":"那這樣子對人民才有交代啊而不是在這裡說吃了要吃沒多少啦 這都合格吃不死啦我們的標準你的 如果你要講科學數據 科學分析那麼你應該把每一年減幾批公佈出來啊 每一年啊讓我們看到從2021到2025是逐年遞減的你就不要糊弄我們用一個總的數據嘛所以"},{"start":322.459,"end":339.075,"text":"萊劑的安全容許量是一回事我們有標準也是一回事但我們也有不想吃到的權利所以不要以每天吃也不會死沒看到過有人因為吃萊劑而中毒這樣的說法太輕率了"},{"start":342.398,"end":365.284,"text":"這個凸顯了官僚的心態以外也忽視了民眾對於自我健康管理的這個差異和我選擇的自由所以每個人的身體狀況不一樣代謝功能也不一樣你吃了沒事不代表我不會不舒服或不是或者是他不會生病可是我吃了就不舒服我就沒有辦法適應或是我就是根本就不想吃嘛"},{"start":369.245,"end":395.984,"text":"所以民眾做飲食選擇的依據食安的標準從來都不該指示會不會吃了會不會死吃了以後會不會生病或者你上次罵我們的是知識的缺乏才會擔心不是不是你上次罵我上次質詢你罵我們的會擔心的都是因為知識的缺乏而非基於科學的風險評估"},{"start":398.218,"end":406.689,"text":"我覺得這個態度才是最重要的不然說我吃不死啊我對食安的標準不是吃了會死的也不是說吃了會中毒的不是你要安人民的心啊 沒錯你說看嘛 對不對"},{"start":414.278,"end":436.148,"text":"報告委員,我想我們都是天下父母親,我完全了解我們吃東西要怎麼吃,那署長他也是人家的天下父母親,但是他以他過去的...對啊,他是食藥署署長啊,你不可以做一個父母說你快點吃,吃了就不會中毒,吃了就不會死,用這種標準來看待食安啊"},{"start":436.448,"end":462.706,"text":"他的意思是說他用的專業 事實上真的希望讓大家安心好啦 署長你再看一下啦我剛剛講的 當你檢驗你邊境查驗逐年遞減 而六天查到3P有減出雖然沒有超標 但是不是應該要稍微提高一下你的邊境的抽驗原來你源頭把關好了 不要流落到後市場去嘛"},{"start":463.226,"end":464.047,"text":"我們最討厭聽到業者自律,因為的確業者不可能自律"},{"start":486.415,"end":513.26,"text":"從所有食品安全破功我們都是建立在業者自律結果我們發現 屢屢發現業者自律 要求業者自律這個事情是不可能存在的都必須要他律啊對 我的意思是說這次呢 業者自己跳出來說他不需要銷出去 然後暫時都沒有要我是說他這個部分 他要做這件事其實我們都尊重他們啊對啦 我的意思是說你不應該告訴人民說這吃了沒中毒 吃了沒死不是用這個標準"},{"start":515.88,"end":539.767,"text":"報告委員我們對食安的標準不是這樣子我的意思是說對於食品安全的這個風險的評估裡面我們知道科學上的風險是什麼是是但我們要有知的權利我沒有說不定標準或是不准進來但我可以選擇不要不吃到不買對我說所以我在也非常同意委員這邊的提點但你這我責任是你必須要趕快掐牆查驗看看有沒有超標的"},{"start":545.441,"end":572.159,"text":"你應該提高查驗的這個批次然後告訴我們超標的幾乎沒有 雖然都有檢出但澳洲的全部都有檢出 譬如說是不是這樣子讓我們有知道風險 把關風險的能力要先有資訊啊我們針對這個抽驗的部分我們會持續的去做一些積極的評估我們也待會去做一些考慮謝謝委員的支持好"},{"start":572.839,"end":588.522,"text":"因為你的數據其實也有一點玩弄你不敢講逐年遞減這種事好沒關係我來問一下長照的事情部長這個台灣進入超高齡社會這個平均壽命是80.2男生76.9女生83.7那特別要強調這個數據是因為這個數據關係到整體長照的負荷和效能你從2.0要到3.0但是人力和財源要同時到位"},{"start":602.085,"end":621.78,"text":"因為它影響到服務的品質還有它的可進性如果前端階段有效介入那麼延後減緩進入長照體系的速度所以資源的配置要很精準要提升照顧的品質這個是制度設計的這個關鍵也是政策精準化的重要方向好 那我現在要跟你討論的是腦中風年輕化這件事"},{"start":625.622,"end":651.233,"text":"腦中風年輕化我們的長照體系可以接得住這一群45歲以下就中風失能的人嗎你回答我45歲以下就失能的人我們的長照有辦法接得住他們嗎那報告委員喔這個也是很重要的議題所以我們在長照3.0會把這個部分你要怎麼接進去"},{"start":652.25,"end":668.588,"text":"那個請次長回答一下非常感謝委員我想三個重點第一個我們現在3.0我們現在會來放寬就是說如果說有這一個有這個部分的話我們之前大概都是65歲以上對等等那些嘛那我們現在如果說有這個部分的話我們會來放寬"},{"start":670.35,"end":691.091,"text":"你是要從年齡去放寬還是要從什麼資格因為你就室內的資格我跟委員報告其實主要是從我們住院那個PAC就是那個基金後期你都青菜公共幫委員這不是青菜公共我也知道就是現在目前中風確實有年輕化的現象你知道有多嚴重中風的人裡面幾個有一個是年輕人45歲以下你知道嗎"},{"start":692.686,"end":721.769,"text":"你知不知道以前中風的比例年輕人大概占5到6%現在到幾%你知道嗎你沒有去正視這個問題你連數據都沒有幾%你知道嗎中風的人裡面有幾%是年輕人啊45歲以下你不知道我告訴你不用叫他們給你數據了15到18%而且每七個就有一個是45歲以下而且45歲以下青壯年正值事業的巔峰啊"},{"start":722.429,"end":738.166,"text":"在這種狀況對家庭對他個人對整個社會的衝擊何其大那我們在講是說你知道而且都以哪一種中風有兩種出血型還有阻射型嘛你知道年輕人的中風跟老年人的中風有沒有顯著的不一樣你知道嗎"},{"start":738.966,"end":755.483,"text":"年輕人是出血型比較多年輕人是出血型比較多年老的人出血型中風只佔了兩成但年輕人的中風大概五六成都是出血性的中風而且男生佔了六七成我講男生而且都是家計負擔者"},{"start":756.984,"end":785.933,"text":"這很重要所以在這種狀況裡面他的代謝疾病很多人都不知道自己糖尿病不曉得自己高血脂都不知道自己有三高45歲以下誰會想到自己離死神有多遠或多近那我要問你一次說你剛剛講說PAC我現在要問你喔中風的黃金復健期是多久半年半年好那你的PAC要接觸的人有辦法接觸這一群嗎"},{"start":787.151,"end":806.486,"text":"包委我們現在目前的做法是這樣現在就是在出院準備之後我們現在目前當然就是說我們現在一方面當然是縮短嘛對不對縮短之後然後現在我們也跟健保署這邊在加強加強合作就是說整個天數上面的那個縮短還有另外一個就是說我們就是沒有啦你不是天數而已啦"},{"start":806.886,"end":814.85,"text":"還有中介機構就是說你現在目前整個你要回到家中間呢我們現在也在輔導你們PAC從2014年開始做這個名稱叫腦中風急性後期的照護他要解決住院的天數的問題還有復健連續性的問題然後呢在急性後期的照護進入穩定期以後轉介到復健的專門醫院在這種狀況裡面我們要講的是說他為什麼"},{"start":835.88,"end":845.165,"text":"這個東西很好 效果很好 成效很好可是很多人沒有辦法使用的原因是在他的門檻很高他的門檻有多高 你知道嗎"},{"start":846.394,"end":870.373,"text":"要使用PAC計畫必須個案本身體力需要承受大量密集的復健運動醫療團隊判斷需要具備積極復健的潛能者第一要具備基本認知學習能力和意願第二要具備足夠的體力支撐下能於輪椅或船員至少為止一個小時的坐姿自己有辦法坐一小時的啊"},{"start":873.695,"end":901.617,"text":"我現在要說的是說能夠進入PAC計畫的腦中風患者相對的都是失能的程度沒有那麼嚴重的啦沒有那麼嚴重的所以你這一個條件沒有改變其實年輕人一中風失能程度嚴重他沒有辦法進入PAC啊甚至他沒有任何可以接住他們因為你長照服務的四大類型適用資格是什麼"},{"start":902.738,"end":921.441,"text":"保委我們現在主要大概就是那個65歲以上CMS2-8另外就是我們原住民55歲還有那個還有身障身障還有50歲以上失智但是如果年輕的中風者要符合哪一個條件"},{"start":922.362,"end":937.916,"text":"只能夠等到身心障礙者的身份我們現在目前在3.0的時候我們現在目前會在整個資格上面來說來做放寬你要放寬到哪裡我現在跟你講你要先知道問題在哪裡因為你要等到他確定是殘障領到殘障所措才能進入失能的體系去"},{"start":938.857,"end":962.688,"text":"那要經過半年觀察他不會認為醫療機構還有這個鑑定機構不會認為你一中風就是永久性的失能所以一定要失能一陣子確認你失能了才要給你證明你才有辦法進入長照體系那可是跟我們的黃金復健期剛好是衝突的我必須在黃金復健期馬上做這個復健然後呢否則的話"},{"start":966.512,"end":990.29,"text":"可是跟黃金復健期這個年輕的中風者必須要幹什麼嗎他必須要不斷的換醫院不斷的轉換醫院雖然你們從109年開始就刪除了住院日數30天的品質指標但是每個大型醫院都會告訴腦中風的患者管你45歲以下還是45歲以上28天通通要出院"},{"start":991.19,"end":1018.805,"text":"理由就是病情穩定了你希望後面還有很多人中風的要用這個資源所以這復健科還不到一個月28天的年輕的中風的人他就要開始找醫院然後呢他的復健之路何其漫長他的黃金復原期很重要可是呢如果一個年輕人你在做黃金復健的時候你沒有接住他你讓他變成永久失能永久躺在那裡"},{"start":1020.086,"end":1031.783,"text":"這個國家的長照 未來的長照體系 國家的醫療資源這樣不好啊 你在黃金時期讓他趕快的復原能夠復原到相當程度 能夠生活自理 能夠照顧自己"},{"start":1034.631,"end":1057.052,"text":"這個頭三個月這樣的一個黃金的恢復期物理治療職能治療語言治療在這種狀況裡面他才是要搶救我們第一優先資源要配置在他們身上可是我們就目前的制度沒有接觸他們沒有所以照顧者45歲以下有可能剛結婚耶他的配偶或是他的貓"},{"start":1058.134,"end":1062.157,"text":"父母誰可以放下手邊的家庭和工作甚至小孩2歲 3歲 5歲 10歲"},{"start":1065.243,"end":1091.741,"text":"誰可以來接住他們他光是在都市裡面尋求大型醫院的復健科要銜接黃金復健期都已經很困難了如果你在鄉下地區醫療資源相對不特別充裕的縣市其實這些年輕的中風者會出現不論是醫療體系或是健保甚至是患者家庭最不願意看的狀況他們會躺好躺滿一直躺到生命結束"},{"start":1093.286,"end":1116.615,"text":"這是不應該的所以這是不應該的你覺得我們 部長你覺得我們要讓他們這樣子吧年輕中風七個就有一個這麼嚴重 報告委員真的很感謝齁您把這個重要的問題也是一直長期這幾年來大家心中的覺得比較需要解決的問題提出來沒有啦 說真的 說的空的我沒理由 我就跟你說啦所以你們回去要想3.0的會努力"},{"start":1121.437,"end":1128.401,"text":"3.0要怎麼努力好好的想一下要第一優先要接觸的是年輕的中風的人中風和醫療和長照的關係是什麼"},{"start":1133.957,"end":1153.14,"text":"跟委員報告這個從開始早先的這個症狀就要警覺啦然後呢我們健保現在有擴大那個取栓數的黃金時間最早的那段時間所以取栓數我們擴大到24小時血栓溶解劑你現在講治療醫療你現在講醫療我現在講的是長照體系要怎麼先接住他們所以我剛剛講了幾個課題嘛醫療長照"},{"start":1163.363,"end":1163.384,"text":"哼"},{"start":1165.306,"end":1191.66,"text":"醫療和長照和復健所以私能的部分我們現在的PAC有三種樣態啦有住院PAC有日間照護的PAC跟居家的PAC那剛剛委員講的是說要不要再把這個進PAC的條件再放寬一些因為過去呢大家討論的都是比較有potential復健的那一些才進PAC相對輕症啦不是potential啦"},{"start":1193.911,"end":1210.134,"text":"相對輕症 因為對你們來講相對輕症這種看起來改善率很好嘛可是我要告訴你是說即使不符合住院型PAC 收案的條件但也不代表要放棄他們也不代表說他們沒有需求"},{"start":1210.615,"end":1218.262,"text":"他也是會進入尋常的復健他還是有復健尋常的哪裡有尋常的復健過去衛福部示範過護理之交的PAC啦但是這個非醫院主導模式的role model"},{"start":1225.908,"end":1230.269,"text":"沒有後續沒有繼續試辦你們的PAC健保給醫院你們沒有下放到地區的這種護理之家住宿型的復健照顧機構你們這個體制我不管你用什麼方法我只想要看到年輕的腦中風的這一些人我們要在黃金時期整個長照體系照護體系要接住他們"},{"start":1255.619,"end":1275.084,"text":"對不對我想我們會把醫療跟長照結合起來如果接不住那些有需求的年輕人未來累積的醫療費用更多長照支出更多社會支援成本更多都變成個人和整個社會難以承擔的壓力一個是走壞地方跟一個不會走壞地方"},{"start":1277.826,"end":1295.483,"text":"你要照顧的時間不一樣資源不一樣所以你一定要讓他避免越年輕師能照顧越沉重的狀況所以你PAC跟長照銜接的好你資格要放寬你的3.0就是要計畫到那這裡來如果年輕型的腦中風依然沒有辦法納入的話"},{"start":1297.125,"end":1317.034,"text":"那這個問題就根本沒有接觸我們醫療跟長照結合一定會接觸每一個病人我現在告訴你這裡就是沒有接觸的啊我現在告訴你這裡就是沒有被接觸的我們來演繹來改善台灣人長照制度已經涵蓋了重症兒童到高齡的長者逐步來形成這個全民式的照顧的架構可是呢"},{"start":1317.554,"end":1346.127,"text":"透過早期的復健和這個功能的促進要減少後續的醫療支出和長照的支出而年輕型的腦狀風這一類型就是最關鍵的一個族群了是我們台灣醫療水準很高不能不容許讓我們的病人不是醫療水準而已啦醫療跟長照跟長照我請問一下那個署長那個復健不是在長照也都有護嗎"},{"start":1347.387,"end":1376.094,"text":"你們不是都有延伸到那個長照機構裡面也有回診那個附件還是有附的你去看也要擺落骨 因為都需要大附件因為前三個月前六個月大概都還需要附件床然後住在那裡然後要去附件但是大型的醫院都沒有床位啦然後這個非大型的醫院的附件人家不會認為他們的附件設施專業是到位的而年輕人需要的就是"},{"start":1376.814,"end":1389.401,"text":"搶救他關鍵那六個月所以這個他的PAC計畫要不要放寬資格因為他很嚴格你自己我都支撐1.1億以上這中方我都自己支撐1.1億以上的中方都是相對比較輕度的再來就是說你的PAC你只有健保給付連動到大醫院沒有連動到護理之家也沒有連動到這個長照的機構沒有給沒有給付點數啦"},{"start":1404.929,"end":1413.601,"text":"都沒有,所以這問題很嚴重,就是床也不夠可是我想講的是,45歲以下,他真的是關鍵啦要接觸他們啦"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":462,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時24分）謝謝召委，請部長和姜署長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。委員請多保重，多喝開水。"],["林委員淑芬：對，我也希望不要感冒。署長曾經在2021年說過，當時是教授身分，以CODEX標準，每天吃6公斤萊豬，連續吃好幾年才會超標，但這跟中毒又是兩件事，政府會把關，請大家買豬肉時要放輕鬆。如果依照署長這個標準，大概就沒有食安問題，只有吃到毒物才會死的問題。我今天要講的是，短短6天驗出三批含有萊劑的豬肉產品，雖然都在標準裡面，但6天就有三批，剛才有沒有提到退回去的有幾批？喔！是檢出啦！檢出但沒超標的有三批，有退關的嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：豬肉方面沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：都沒有？好，我要提醒部長和署長，對於食安的態度要兢兢業業，尤其我自己作為一個媽媽、作為一個會開伙家庭的食安把關者，我個人的標準不是只有吃了會中毒、吃了會有多大風險，我自己個人是不想要吃到，我想很多媽媽跟我一樣的心情，所以我們想要的就是透明、知的權利，就是這樣子而已。","其實對抗WTO貿易架構就是這樣子，你強迫我們開了邊界，我就讓你進來，但消費者可以不買，這是整體世界貿易一直有的情節，你強迫我開放，那我可以選擇不吃、不買，但是國家要扮演什麼角色？你沒有去標籤化它，但是你不可以講說……署長，你丟出一句話：沒見過有人吃萊克多巴胺牛肉中毒的。用這種態度來訕笑擔心的民眾，我覺得唯一不需要的是這樣子，你應該想的是人民真的很擔心，因為我有選擇不吃的權利，因為每個人的健康管理風險都是每個人要負責，我不想要、我有代謝疾病、我有慢性三高等，在這種狀況之下，你講得很洋洋得意，說你們有科學方法在把關，你們的Border Prediction Intelligent、BPI在做什麼，其實我們都希望有政府在源頭、邊境把關，因為如果6天就檢出三批，雖然沒有超標，那有沒有可能邊境的查驗強度應該稍微提高，加強邊境和後市場的稽查？在這個過程當中，你一直以幾個數據告訴我們，譬如你在新聞稿寫：2021年1月1號到2025年4月30號，邊境報驗的豬肉和豬雜碎共計2萬5,466批；110年到114年4月間，後市場對進口及國產豬肉的產品共檢驗1萬8,501件，檢驗萊克多巴胺結果皆合格。你是這樣寫的，但是我覺得你應該公布的不是這五年裡檢了多少，而是每一年你檢多少？因為我們知道剛開始的那一年，檢的數量是最多的，也就是2021年、110年檢的批次最多，到2024、2025年其實都遞減了，就是邊境抽驗的比例其實是大幅遞減，在這種遞減之下，6天還檢驗出三批含有萊劑，雖然沒有超標，但站在主管機關立場，應該是告訴大家會加強邊境把關，把抽驗的批次再增加一點，當你增加了、檢驗出來了，覺得風險沒有增加，這樣對人民才有交代，而不是在這裡說沒吃那麼多、這都合格、吃不死的！如果要講科學數據、科學分析，那麼應該把每一年檢幾批公布出來，是每一年，讓我們看到從2021到2025是逐年遞減，而不是用一個總的數據唬弄我們嘛！","萊劑的安全容許量是一回事，我們有標準也是一回事，但我們也有不想吃到的權利，所以不要以每天吃也不會死、沒看過有人因為吃萊劑而中毒的說法告訴民眾，這樣的說法太輕率了，除了凸顯官僚心態外，也忽視了民眾對於自我健康管理的差異和選擇的自由，每個人的身體狀況不一樣，代謝功能也不一樣，你吃了沒事，不代表我不會不舒服或不適；或者他不會生病，可是我吃了就不舒服，我就沒有辦法適應，或是我根本就不想吃！民眾選擇飲食的依據，食安的標準從來都不該只是吃了會不會死、吃了以後會不會生病，或者你上次罵我們的：是知識的缺乏才會擔心。不是！不是！我上次質詢時，你罵我們：會擔心的，都是因為知識的缺乏，而非基於科學的風險評估。我覺得這個態度才是最重要的，不能說反正吃不死，我對食安的標準不是吃了會不會死，也不是吃了會不會中毒，都不是！你要安人民的心吶！部長，你講看看，是不是這樣？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想我們都是天下父母心，我完全瞭解我們吃東西要怎麼吃，署長也是人家的……也是天下父母心，但是他以他過去……"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！他是食藥署署長，他不能當人家父母卻說，趕快吃，反正吃了也不會中毒，吃了也不會死，不能用這種標準來看待食安。"],["邱部長泰源：他的意思是說，他會用他的專業、數十年來的經驗，希望讓大家安心，所以在用詞上面……"],["林委員淑芬：好啦，署長你說說看好了。我剛剛講了，當你邊境查驗逐年遞減，6天查到3批有檢出，雖然沒有超標，但是不是應該要稍微提高一下你的邊境抽驗？你源頭把關好了，不要流落到後市場嘛！"],["姜署長至剛：我先跟委員做個簡單的報告，因為邊境查到的3批其實是同一家製造廠，由兩家貿易商代理進來。原則上，業者的自制跟自主的……我們其實是給予高度的尊重，這是第一件事情。"],["林委員淑芬：我們最討厭聽到業者自律，因為業者的確不可能自律。所有食品安全的破功，都是建立在業者自律上，結果我們卻屢屢發現要求業者自律這個事情是不可能存在的，都必須要他律啦！"],["姜署長至剛：我的意思是說，這次業者自己跳出來說，他不會銷出去，暫時都沒有要……我是說他在這個部分要做這件事情，其實我們都會尊重他們。"],["林委員淑芬：對，但我的意思是，你不應該告訴人民，這個吃了不會中毒，吃了不會死，不是用這個標準，我們對食安的標準不是這樣子的。"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，不是這個意思，我的意思是說，對於食品安全風險的評估……"],["林委員淑芬：我們知道科學上的風險是什麼，但我們要有知的權利，我們沒有說不定標準或是不准進來，但我可以選擇不要、不吃到、不買。"],["姜署長至剛：所以我也非常同意委員這邊的提點，就是從安全跟安心的……"],["林委員淑芬：但你政府有責任，你必須趕快加強查驗看看有沒有超標的，你應該提高查驗的批次，然後告訴我們超標的幾乎沒有，雖然都有檢出，像是澳洲的就是全部都有檢出，是不是這樣子？讓我們有知道風險、把關風險的能力，要先有資訊啊！"],["姜署長至剛：我們針對抽驗的部分會持續去做積極的評估，也會帶回去做一些考量，謝謝委員的支持。"],["林委員淑芬：因為你的數據其實也有一點玩弄，你不敢講逐年遞減這種事。","好，沒關係，我來問一下長照的事情。部長，臺灣進入超高齡社會，平均壽命是80.2歲，男生是76.9歲，女生是83.7歲，特別要強調這個數據是因為這個數據關係到整體長照的負荷和效能，你從2.0要到3.0，但是人力和財源要同時到位，因為它會影響到服務的品質，還有它的可近性。如果前端階段有效介入，就會延後減緩進入長照體系的速度，所以資源的配置要很精準。要提升照顧的品質，這個是制度設計的關鍵，也是政策精準化的重要方向。","我現在要跟你討論的是，腦中風年輕化這件事。因為腦中風年輕化，我們的長照體系可以接得住這一群45歲以下就中風失能的人嗎？你回答我。45歲以下就失能的人，我們的長照有辦法接得住他們嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這個也是一個很重要的議題，所以我們在長照3.0會把這個部分納進來。"],["林委員淑芬：你要怎麼接進去？"],["邱部長泰源：我請次長回答一下。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員，我想有三個重點：第一個，現在的3.0會放寬，之前大概都是65歲以上的那些……"],["林委員淑芬：對。"],["呂次長建德：現在如果有這個部分的話，我們會來放寬。"],["林委員淑芬：你要從年齡去放寬，還是要從什麼資格？因為只有四類資格。"],["呂次長建德：我跟委員報告，其實主要是從……我們住院的PAC就是急性後期……"],["林委員淑芬：你都是隨便講講的。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這不是隨便講講的，我也知道現在中風確實有年輕化的現象……"],["林委員淑芬：你知不知有多嚴重？中風的人裡面，幾個有一個是年輕人（45歲以下），你知道嗎？你知不知道？以前中風的比例，年輕人大概占5%到6%，現在到百分之幾你知道嗎？你沒有去正視這個問題，你連數據都沒有，百分之幾你知道嗎？中風的人裡面，有百分之幾是年輕人在45歲以下啊？你不知道，我告訴你，不用叫他們給你數據了，是15%到18%。"],["呂次長建德：OK。"],["林委員淑芬：而且每7個人就有1個在45歲以下，45歲以下的是青壯年，正值事業的巔峰，這種狀況對他的家庭、對他個人、對整個社會的衝擊何其大！我要講的是，你也知道中風有兩種，分別出血性還有阻塞性嘛！"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["林委員淑芬：你知道年輕人的中風跟老年人的中風有沒有顯著的不一樣？你知道嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：年輕人是出血性比較多。"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["林委員淑芬：年輕人是出血性比較多，年老的人出血性的中風只占了兩成，但年輕人的中風大概有五、六成都是出血性的，而且男生占了六、七成。我要講的是男生，而且都是家計負擔者，這很重要，所以在這種情況裡面，他有代謝疾病，很多人都不知道自己的糖尿病、不曉得自己有高血脂，都不知道自己有三高，45歲以下誰會想到自己離死神有多遠？或多近？","你剛剛講到PAC，我現在問你，中風的黃金復健期是多久？"],["呂次長建德：半年。"],["林委員淑芬：半年？"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["林委員淑芬：好，你的PAC要接住的人，有辦法接住這一群嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們目前的作法是這樣，現在就是在出院準備之後，現在一方面當是縮短，縮短之後我們跟健保署也在加強合作，就是在整個天數上面的縮短，還有另外一個，我們最重要的是……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦！不是只有天數而已啦！"],["呂次長建德：委員，還有中介機構，就是說，你要回到家，中間我們現在也在輔導……"],["林委員淑芬：你們PAC從2014年開始做，這個名稱叫「腦中風急性後期照護」。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯。"],["林委員淑芬：它要解決住院天數的問題，還有復健連續性的問題。"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["林委員淑芬：然後呢？在急性後期的照護進入穩定期以後，就會轉介到復健的專門醫院。"],["呂次長建德：是的，沒錯。"],["林委員淑芬：在這種狀況裡面，我們要講的是，這個東西效果很好、成效很好，可是很多人沒有辦法使用的原因是在於它的門檻很高。它的門檻有多高，你知道嗎？要使用PAC計畫，必須個案本身的體力要能承受大量密集的復健運動，醫療團隊判斷須具備積極復健的潛能者。第一，要具備基本認知、學習能力和意願；第二，要具備足夠的體力，支撐能於輪椅或床緣至少維持1個小時的坐姿。要自己有辦法坐1個小時啊！我現在要說的是，能夠進入PAC計畫的腦中風患者，相對都是失能程度沒有那麼嚴重的啦！所以你這一個條件沒有改變，其實年輕人一中風，失能程度嚴重，他就沒有辦法進入PAC，甚至也沒有任何可以接住他們的地方，因為你長照服務的四大類型適用資格是什麼？跟你們部長說一下。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們現在主要大概就是65歲以上……"],["林委員淑芬：65歲以上。"],["呂次長建德：CMS，2到8，還有另外就是……"],["林委員淑芬：原住民要55歲。"],["呂次長建德：對，還有身障。"],["林委員淑芬：還有身障，還有50歲以上的失智。"],["呂次長建德：對，沒錯，還有失智的部分。"],["林委員淑芬：但是年輕的中風者，要符合哪一個條件？只能夠等到身心障礙者的身分啦！"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們目前在3.0的時候，會就整個資格上面做放寬。"],["林委員淑芬：你要放寬到哪裡，我現在跟你講，你要先知道問題在哪裡。"],["呂次長建德：是。"],["林委員淑芬：因為你要等到他確定領到殘障手冊了，才能進入失能體系去，這要經過半年觀察，醫療機構還有鑑定機構不會認為你一中風就是永久性的失能，所以一定要失能一陣子，確認失能了，才要給你證明，你才有辦法進入長照體系。"],["呂次長建德：對。"],["林委員淑芬：可是這跟黃金復健期剛好是衝突的，我必須在黃金復健期馬上做這個復健，否則……在這個黃金復健期，年輕的中風者必須幹什麼？他必須不斷地換醫院、不斷地轉換醫院。雖然你們從109年開始就刪除了住院日數30天的品質指標，但是每個大型醫院都會告訴腦中風的患者，不管你是45歲以下還是45歲以上，28天就通通要出院，理由就是病情穩定了，後面還有很多中風的人要用這個資源，所以在復健科28天、還不到一個月，中風的年輕人就要開始找醫院，他的復健之路何其漫長？他的黃金復原期很重要，可是一個年輕人在做黃金復健的時候，你沒有接住他，讓他變成永久失能、永久躺在那裡，這樣對國家未來的長照體系、醫療資源沒有比較好！你讓他在黃金時期趕快復原，復原到相當程度能夠生活自理、照顧自己。從3個月的黃金恢復期進行物理治療、職能治療、語言治療，在這種狀況裡面，他們才是第一優先要搶救，資源要配置在他們身上，可是目前的制度沒有接住他們。45歲以下有可能剛結婚，所以照顧者可能是他的配偶或他的父母，誰可以放下手邊的家庭和工作？甚至小孩2歲、3歲、5歲、10歲，誰可以來接住他們？光是在都市裡面尋求大型醫院的復健科要銜接黃金復健期，都已經很困難了，如果在鄉下地區、醫療資源相對不特別充裕的縣市，其實這些年輕的中風者會出現不論是醫療體系或健保，甚至患者家庭最不願意看的狀況──他們會躺好躺滿，一直躺到生命結束，這是不應該的！部長，你覺得我們要讓他們這樣嗎？年輕中風7個就有1個，這麼嚴重！"],["邱部長泰源：真的很感謝您把這個重要的問題，也是這幾年來大家心中覺得比較需要解決的問題提出來。"],["林委員淑芬：不！說這個就是空的。我要問你，我都跟你說了，所以你們回去要想……"],["邱部長泰源：3.0會努力，現在……"],["林委員淑芬：好好想一下3.0要怎麼努力，第一優先要接住的是中風的年輕人……"],["邱部長泰源：健保署在這個部分也做很多。"],["林委員淑芬：中風和醫療、長照的關係是什麼？"],["石署長崇良：這個從開始、有早先的症狀就要警覺，健保現在有擴大取栓術的黃金時間，即最早的那段時間，所以取栓術擴大到24小時，血栓溶解劑……"],["林委員淑芬：你現在講的是醫療，我講的是長照體系要怎麼銜接住他們。"],["石署長崇良：我知道前面要強化、減少失能的機會，接著失能的……"],["林委員淑芬：我剛剛講幾個課題，醫療、長照和復健……"],["石署長崇良：對，有關失能的部分，現在PAC有三種樣態，有住院PAC、日間照護PAC跟居家PAC。剛剛委員講的是，要不要再把進PAC的條件再放寬一些，因為過去大家討論的都是比較有potential、復健的那一些才進PAC，不然的話，他可能……"],["林委員淑芬：相對輕症，不是potential。"],["石署長崇良：那就得是有辦法改善的。"],["林委員淑芬：對你們來講，相對輕症這種看起來改善率很好。"],["石署長崇良：對，要能夠改善。"],["林委員淑芬：可是我告訴你，即使不符合住院型PAC收案的條件，但不代表要放棄他們，也不代表他們沒有需求。"],["石署長崇良：他也是可以進入尋常的復健，他還是有復健……"],["林委員淑芬：哪裡有尋常的復健？過去衛福部試辦過護理之家的PAC，但是這個非醫院主導模式的role model，後續沒有繼續試辦。"],["石署長崇良：我們再找專家，大家來討論一下……"],["林委員淑芬：你們的PAC健保給付只付給醫院，沒有下放到地區的護理之家、住宿型的復健照顧機構，我不管你們這個體制用什麼方法，我只想要看到這一些腦中風的年輕人在黃金時期，整個長照體系、照護體系要接住他們，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會把醫療跟長照結合起來，接住這些年輕人。"],["林委員淑芬：如果接不住那些有需求的年輕人，未來累積的醫療費用更多、長照支出更多、社會資源成本更多，都變成個人和整個社會難以承擔的壓力。40歲中風跟80歲中風要照顧的時間不一樣、資源不一樣，所以一定要避免越年輕失能照護越沉重的狀況，所以PAC跟長照要銜接得好、資格要放寬，3.0就是要進化到這裡。如果年輕型的腦中風依然沒有辦法納入，這個問題就根本沒有解決，我們不認為……"],["邱部長泰源：醫療跟長照結合一定會接住每一個需要的病人。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在告訴你，這裡就是沒有被接住的。"],["邱部長泰源：我們來努力，我們來研議改善。"],["林委員淑芬：臺灣的長照制度已經涵蓋了重症兒童到高齡長者，逐步形成全齡式的照顧架構，透過早期的復健和功能的促進可以減少後續的醫療支出和長照支出，而年輕型的腦中風這一類型就是最關鍵的族群了。"],["邱部長泰源：是，臺灣醫療水準很高，不容許我們的病人求醫無門，我們一定要努力。"],["林委員淑芬：不是醫療水準而已，醫療跟長照、復健……"],["邱部長泰源：後續的照護……"],["主席：我請問一下署長，復健不是在長照也都有付嗎？你們不是都有延伸到？"],["石署長崇良：長照機構裡面也有回診，復健還是有付的。"],["林委員淑芬：你去看看要排多久，他們都還需要住院，因為前三個月、前六個月，大概都還需要復健床，住在那裡然後去復健，但是大型的醫院都沒有床位。人家不會認為非大型醫院的復健設施、專業是到位的，而年輕人需要的就是搶救關鍵那六個月，所以PAC計畫要不要放寬資格？因為它很嚴格，規定自己有辦法支撐1小時以上，如果有辦法自己支撐1小時以上的中風都是相對比較輕度的。再來，PAC的健保給付只有連動到大醫院，沒有連動到護理之家，也沒有連動到長照機構，都沒有給付點數，所以這個問題很嚴重，床也不夠。可是我跟你講，45歲以下真的是關鍵，要接住他們！"],["邱部長泰源：是，謝謝委員，我們努力。"],["主席：謝謝林委員的用心，謝謝部長。","接續請涂權吉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳瑩","廖偉翔","陳培瑜","李坤城","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","劉書彬","劉建國","黃國昌","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲"],"page_start":163,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「長照2.0執行情形檢討及3.0未來規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長就「澳洲進口豬腳驗出含萊克多巴胺，如何加強肉品食安查驗，讓民眾\n放心」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00004"}}},{"id":"161062","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161062","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c10416a2cca6210b6386c15394cd5fc9015f5e885147c9c9bc7676b3772217087c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:35:48 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謝謝召委 請李主任跟秀發部的吳副處長請李主任"},{"start":16.466,"end":38.276,"text":"這個法案內容我支持沒有特別意見但我想要關心一下反倒是TikTok的一些用戶的個資的問題這個部分全世界世界各國大家也高度在重視那我先問一下主任中共能不能取得TikTok的個資就你的了解因為畢竟是他們國家的非公務機關"},{"start":39.81,"end":61.623,"text":"理論上我覺得應該他們對於他要求提出資料在他們的國家法制是應該是可以達到的可以達到啦他也很難拒絕啦因為在專制共產的國家他很難拒絕光馬雲都無法抵抗的TikTok應該很難抵抗他們有一個數據安全法是國家可以要求他們所以他們的數據安全法是直接可以要求的"},{"start":63.027,"end":80.923,"text":"所以這個部分Ttalk是可以直接取得相關這些個資的那這樣的狀況下大家就會高度的擔憂了那我們的很多的包括世界各國包括台灣自己也會關心我們的個資會不會因為在Ttalk這邊而被中共所取得主任擔不擔心這樣的狀況的發生"},{"start":82.819,"end":111.638,"text":"是當然這個也是應該一樣會被各自保護議題要被關注的那我們在未來的部分我們會有沒有辦法來強化這一塊的一個安全的維護的工作在資訊安全各自的安全的部分會 剛剛在前面委員在追尋這樣的一個說其他境外的這些業者當然一個就是管轄權的部分現階段因為畢竟現行的各自法以及整個發展過程裡面就是一個內國法"},{"start":113.039,"end":128.689,"text":"那像這種完全不落地的 他的管轄權要來形成我剛剛也有說明說在第二階段的各自法的大修裡面會處理這個議題 就是對這種他完全不落地的所以主任會要求這個將來必須要落地嗎"},{"start":129.389,"end":145.356,"text":"我覺得現在因為炸房已經有這樣子的一個你如果不落地的話你炸片的一堆或什麼的你對他幾乎完全是沒有約束力嘛是是是美國都還可以要求聽證位要求他來談台灣你要TikTok我不知道處長如果現在要TikTok是邀誰來"},{"start":146.956,"end":169.905,"text":"現在因為現場只要按照是分管機制所以就要再請這類的我問您就您的了解如果是要邀請TikTok的人認為他有相關的疑慮要來台灣做說明政府來做說明邀請誰來他來不來可能以這部分當然可能等一下先請問一下以處長主委你的了解有沒有"},{"start":171.765,"end":193.067,"text":"現在有沒有被邀還是 如果要邀的話可以邀誰來 他願不願意來喔是有嗎 是希望他進來落地投資還是說 進來說明再說明就好了 假如我們有一個任何一個聽證或是一個公聽會的時候 要他來說明的時候這部分我看 是不是等一下請那個書發部書發部要不要說明一下 有嗎 有這樣的人可以說明嗎"},{"start":196.096,"end":211.647,"text":"我們補充報告 目前在打詐條例的部分我們是針對國際版的T-talk的部分 它現在我們還在審查中但他們在台灣有聯絡人 因此在打詐的事務上台灣的聯絡人是誰 什麼樣的層級他們有一個台灣的連聯絡人是誰都還不是那麼清楚現在委員報告他就是會有一位就是在台灣這邊負責是做"},{"start":221.021,"end":226.087,"text":"那個是就是業務接洽的部分所以是做業務接洽所以他的指稱是這個就是最大的問題啦那我問你啦 他不來的話我們有辦法約束他嗎"},{"start":235.351,"end":263.413,"text":"市報委員現在他其實我們在審核他的資格當中就針對國際版TikTok有沒有要設法律代表部分這個我們現在也在想這個就是我提到的問題我請包括主任包括那個書法部都是要思考的如果我們連人家美國是要聽證會的他的執行長還要來做個說明任何的都做說明如果來到了台灣賺台灣人的錢賺台灣的所有利益的時候然後你連請他來請誰來都還請不清楚"},{"start":265.214,"end":282.72,"text":"他一個代表可能某某先生而已他能不能代表Ttalk也沒有人知道能不能對他有任何約束行為也沒有甚至於如果我們認為他有相關的要約束他的話也沒有那這樣的狀況下你怎麼Ttalk等於是形同如入無人之境形同沒有管轄一樣"},{"start":284.295,"end":309.653,"text":"那我沒有認為剛剛主任講到了TikTok所有的東西資訊是為中共政府是可以掌握得到的那到底對台灣的權益保障在哪裡所以我認為這個部分請資訊包括我們的訴發部要加快這個相關的動作如果這樣的話形同他可以賺台灣人的利益進入台灣的市場就完全不用負擔任何責任的義務的這是沒有辦法接受的"},{"start":310.453,"end":333.847,"text":"這沒有辦法接受的所以我希望這一塊部分要盡快來做處理我們也盡快提出來相關部分法制要盡快把它驅離下來我們沒有辦法接受這樣的狀況一再發生我們看一下其他國家印度它為了防止這樣的狀況它是全面禁止的對TikTok是全面禁止TikTok現在已經產生很多的效應很多人喜歡看TikTok裡面有產生很多的"},{"start":334.187,"end":353.412,"text":"它只要詐騙的也會出現甚至虐待動物也會出現甚至奇怪的很多東西都會出現在這個地方而TikTok只要它有商業的利益它就會進行那我們對這一塊甚至有很多設計它可以用大數據去取得你台灣人民的喜好你喜歡什麼東西你喜歡什麼樣的都可以取得大數據"},{"start":354.412,"end":371.453,"text":"那甚至於他可以穿透他的政策的宣導出去給你那我們對這個是完全沒有防禦機制所以其他的像印度已經全面封禁了其他國家政府禁止而憲政現在也嚴厲其他國家也要禁止台灣作為中共的第一線面對中共的這個"},{"start":373.154,"end":401.852,"text":"這個作戰的第一線不管是網路作戰、認知作戰第一線我們若連基本的防衛能力都沒有連保護能力都沒有我們其實很難對台灣人民交代也很難對世界民主同盟來交代人家怎麼看你台灣在第一線大家都已經關注到這個問題了你在第一線被攻擊得最厲害你竟然完全毫無防衛的機制我希望相關單位要加快這個速度啦那再來我們來看一下TikTok傳送到中國去了有單位能查嗎?沒有嘛對不對現在的機制裡面是沒有的嘛"},{"start":402.932,"end":411.712,"text":"主任有嗎 有機制可以查嗎他資料如果把我們的個資洩露到中國去 我們有資料可查嗎主任 要不要說明一下有嗎"},{"start":413.305,"end":442.665,"text":"目前這部分還是循同剛剛所說的那樣一個狀態假如說在我們納管的這樣一個說標的在做確定的這個過程可以去進行納管主委你剛剛說了嘛這資料是有可能會洩漏到那邊去的嘛但是我們現在有沒有機制可以防堵這事情發生沒有嘛沒有機制嘛那所以連人家歐洲愛爾蘭都已經有那個可以重罰他的我們連個機制都沒有我們連罰他的機制都沒有"},{"start":443.605,"end":459.183,"text":"所以我們落後非常的多啦我希望這一塊要加速包括如果它傳送到有沒有違反各自法的規定我認為是有啦但是這個法要修得要更清楚因為中國在對各自的保護是不完善的"},{"start":459.904,"end":478.197,"text":"但是我認為這已經嚴重違反了這條規定了但我認為可以再訂得更清楚啦所以我希望修法的動作要加快確保消費者保護權益幫我們各自的保護權益這塊動作要加快更不要講更不要講連查處能力我們事實上是沒有查處能力的所以"},{"start":481.089,"end":502.285,"text":"另外你看連很多研究都已經提出來T-talk在演算法裡面有親中以美的疑慮所有的T-talk裡面的很多的都會看得出來對中國的好感度是刻意的提升的對中國對台灣經濟的正面影響是刻意提升的對經濟的失敗論是提升的台灣的經濟失敗論是提升的對於政府親美可能引發兩岸戰爭這個是提升的"},{"start":506.568,"end":525.81,"text":"所以可以看得出來T-talk其實在執行某些的兩岸之間的政治作戰或政治的任務的這跟前面的推論都是一模一樣所以在這樣狀況下的時候我們對這樣的行為必須要更多防止跟防堵的行為書法部要不要說明一下後面出現了什麼樣的處理的方式"},{"start":529.935,"end":541.252,"text":"速發部要不要說明一下對於TikTok這些部分未來速發部在這一塊TikTok這些平台上面的有沒有更強而有力的一些監督監管的一些機制"},{"start":543.81,"end":568.059,"text":"各位有沒有報告因為這個部分目前如果如果根據以前的部分可能應該比較像是對於平台平台的監理這部分那我們目前只是就打詐的條例裡面的網路廣告我希望加快啦好不好書發部的成立其實要處理的有一部分就在處理現在的數位時代數位平台這個問題這是重要的一個工作啦如果大家這個時間互相還丟來丟去的話那這個業務是丟歸給誰好不好"},{"start":570.78,"end":586.514,"text":"現在數法部要加快這樣的一個工作的一個成立然後把相關該建立起來對數數位平台的這一塊的那個包前陣子大家常常講數位平台的做政治審查的部分甚至於很多的一些貼文還會被審查甚至於被"},{"start":588.015,"end":615.656,"text":"降流這些等等我認為這個都因為沒有落地了之後你沒有一個機制在的時候你就更難去約束他的行為我希望這塊訴發部要負起你們責任盡快的完成這相關的一些工作要讓相關這些平台有一定的壓力你不能來只想賺台灣人的錢卻不想要受到任何的約束甚至於傷害到台灣的國家利益這是沒有辦法接受的訴發部這塊要加油要趕快把它處理起來我們來看一下連包括"},{"start":616.677,"end":636.405,"text":"數位平台審查這個詐騙 寫入詐騙繳訊網警政署臉書有三萬八千則詐騙廣告到現在為止零開罰包括從去年到今年有一萬三千件零開罰書法部現在是零開罰嗎報告委員我們現在有一些案子是在調查中什麼時候會完成調查"},{"start":639.579,"end":657.15,"text":"我希望盡快啦好不好 這個如果連開罰都沒有所有的詐騙這麼多 3萬8千則的詐騙包括從去年到今年 1萬3千件的詐騙警政署抓都抓不完 然後大家房子抓都抓不完然後詐騙的平台如同共犯一樣這個詐騙賺詐騙的錢 然後平台賺詐騙人的這個錢"},{"start":661.232,"end":689.609,"text":"那這樣的行為如果連我們連對那平台都沒有辦法開罰的話那形同沒有工具嘛 形同沒有嚇阻力嘛那當然難怪平台業者根本懶得理你嘛你政府的公信力跟威權力沒有詐騙已經是人民最深惡痛絕的一件事情了如果書法部還這麼消極我希望盡快的開罰出來讓大家看到已經有三萬多件的這個 連檢舉進來都有一千多件一萬多件的應該要趕快有所作為 有所動作 好不好"},{"start":690.19,"end":692.177,"text":"謝謝 加油 蘇豪加油"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":523,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時35分）好，謝謝召委，請李主任及數發部吳副處長。"],["主席：請李主任及吳副處長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主任好。"],["李主任世德：賴委員早安。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個法案內容我支持啦！沒有特別意見，但我想要關心一下的反倒是TikTok一些用戶個資的問題。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：全世界各國大家也高度在重視這個問題啦！我先請教主任，就你的了解，中共能不能取得TikTok的個資？"],["李主任世德：因為畢竟是他們國家的非公務機關，理論上，我覺得應該他們對於它要求提出資料，依照他們國家的法制應該是可以達到的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：可以達到，它也很難拒絕啦！因為在專制共產的國家，它很難拒絕……"],["李主任世德：他們有一個……"],["賴委員瑞隆：光馬雲都無法抵抗了，TikTok應該很難抵抗。"],["李主任世德：他們有一個數據安全法是國家可以要求他們所有這些……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以他們的數據安全法是直接可以要求的？"],["李主任世德：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以TikTok是可以直接取得相關這些個資的，在這樣的狀況下，大家就會高度的擔憂了，包括世界各國，也包括臺灣自己也會關心我們的個資會不會因為在TikTok這邊而被中共所取得。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主任擔不擔心這樣狀況的發生？"],["李主任世德：是，當然這個也是一樣，應該是要被關注的個資保護議題。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們在未來有沒有辦法來強化這一塊的維護安全工作？在資訊安全及個資安全的部分。"],["李主任世德：會，剛剛因為在前面有委員在垂詢其他境外這些業者，當然就是有關管轄權的部分，現階段因為現行的個資法以及整個發展過程就是一個內國法嘛！像這種完全不落地的，要來形成管轄權，我剛剛也有說明，在第二階段個資法的大修裡面會處理這個議題，對於這種完全不落地的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以主任會要求這部分將來必須要落地嗎？"],["李主任世德：我覺得現在針對詐防已經有詐防條例了……"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果不落地的話，詐騙的一堆或什麼的，你對他們幾乎完全是沒有約束力嘛！"],["李主任世德：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：美國都還可以透過聽證會要求他們來談，臺灣要求TikTok……我不知道，主任，如果現在要求TikTok，是要邀誰來？"],["李主任世德：現行按照的是分管機制，就要再請這類的行業……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我問你，就您的了解，待會再問數發部，如果現在邀請TikTok的人，認為他們有相關安全的疑慮，需要他們來臺灣跟政府做說明，邀請誰來？他們來不來？"],["李主任世德：這部分可能等一下要請數發部說明。"],["賴委員瑞隆：以主任的了解，有沒有？邀誰來？"],["李主任世德：現在有沒有被邀？還是……"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果要邀的話，可以邀誰來？他們願不願意來？有嗎？"],["李主任世德：是希望他們進來落地投資，還是說……"],["賴委員瑞隆：進來說明就好了，假如我們有任何的聽證或是公聽會要他們來說明的時候。"],["李主任世德：這部分我看是不是等一下請數發部……"],["賴委員瑞隆：數發部要不要說明一下？有這樣的人可以說明嗎？"],["吳副處長宜倫：是，謝謝委員垂詢，我補充報告，目前在打詐條例的部分，我們是針對國際版TikTok的部分，現在我們還在審查中，但他們在臺灣有聯絡人，因此在打詐的事務上……"],["賴委員瑞隆：臺灣的聯絡人是誰？什麼樣的層級？"],["吳副處長宜倫：他們有一個臺灣的……"],["賴委員瑞隆：連聯絡人是誰都還不是那麼清楚？"],["陳簡任視察妍靜：向委員報告，它就是會有一位設在臺灣這邊負責去做業務接洽的部分，做為聯絡窗口……"],["賴委員瑞隆：業務接洽，所以他的職稱是？這個就是最大的問題。我問你，他不來的話，我們有辦法約束他嗎？"],["吳副處長宜倫：是，報告委員，現在其實我們在審核它的資格當中，就是針對國際版TikTok有沒有要設法律代表部分，我們現在也在……"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個就是我提到的問題，我請主任、數發部都要思考，在美國的聽證會至少它的執行長還要來做說明，如果來到了臺灣，賺臺灣人的錢，然後你連請誰來都還不清楚，他一個代表可能只是某某先生而已，他能不能代表TikTok也沒有人知道，也不能對他有任何約束行為，甚至於如果我們認為要約束它也沒有，在這樣的狀況下，TikTok如入無人之境，形同沒有管轄一樣，剛剛主任又講到，TikTok所有資訊是中共政府可以掌握得到的，那到底對臺灣的權益保障在哪裡？所以這個部分請個資會籌備處、數發部要加快相關的動作，否則它可以賺臺灣人的利益，進入臺灣的市場，卻完全不用負擔任何責任跟義務，這是沒有辦法接受的。所以我希望這塊要儘快來做處理，法制要儘快確立下來，我沒有辦法接受這樣的狀況一再發生。","我們看一下其他國家，印度為了防止這樣的狀況，全面禁止TikTok，TikTok現在已經產生很多的效應，很多人喜歡看TikTok，詐騙也會出現，虐待動物也會出現，很多奇怪的東西都會出現，而TikTok只要有商業利益，它就會進行，甚至它可以用大數據去取得你臺灣人民的喜好，甚至於它可以穿透它的政策宣導給你，我們對這個完全沒有防禦機制，所以像印度已經全面封禁了，其他國家也要禁止，臺灣作為面對中共作戰的第一線，不管是網路作戰或認知作戰，我們若連基本的防衛能力都沒有，連保護能力都沒有，我們其實很難對臺灣人民交代，也很難對世界民主同盟來交代。人家會怎麼看你臺灣在第一線，大家都已經關注到這個問題了，你在第一線被攻擊得最厲害，竟然完全毫無防衛的機制，我希望相關單位要加快速度。","再來，我們來看一下TikTok傳送到中國去的，有單位能查嗎？現在的機制裡面是沒有的，對不對？主任，有機制可以查嗎？它如果把我們的個資洩漏到中國去，我們有資料可查嗎？主任要不要說明一下？"],["李主任世德：目前這部分還是如同剛剛所說的那樣一個狀態，假如在我們納管的這樣一個標的在做確定的過程，可以去進行納管……"],["賴委員瑞隆：主任，你剛剛說了嘛，這資料是有可能會洩漏到那邊去的，但是我們現在有沒有機制可以防堵這事情發生？沒有嘛，所以連歐洲、愛爾蘭都已經可以重罰它了，我們連個機制都沒有，我們連罰它的機制都沒有，所以我們落後非常多，我希望這一塊要加速。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果它傳送到了有沒有違反個資法的規定，我認為是有，但是這個法要修得更清楚。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為中國對個資的保護是不完善的，但是我認為這已經嚴重違反了這條規定了，但我認為可以再訂得更清楚，所以我希望修法的動作要加快，以確保消費者權益和個資。"],["李主任世德：好，我們把它納進來。"],["賴委員瑞隆：更不要講查處能力，我們事實上是沒有查處能力的。很多研究都已經提出來，TikTok在演算法裡面有親中疑美的疑慮，TikTok的內容很多都看得出來，對中國的好感度是刻意提升的，對中國對臺灣經濟的正面影響是刻意提升的，對臺灣經濟的失敗論是提升的，對於政府親美可能引發兩岸戰爭是提升的，所以可以看得出來，TikTok其實是在執行某些兩岸之間的認知作戰或政治任務，這跟前面的推論都一模一樣，在這樣的狀況下，我們對這樣的行為必須要更多的防止跟防堵，好不好？後續有沒有什麼樣的處理的方式？數發部要不要說明一下？未來數發部對TikTok這些平台有沒有更強而有力的監督、監管機制？"],["吳副處長宜倫：跟委員報告，這部分根據以前應該比較像是對於平台的監理這部分，我們目前只是就打詐條例裡面的網路廣告……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望加快啦，好不好？數發部的成立，其實有一部分就是要處理數位平台這個問題，這是一個重要的工作，如果現在大家還互相推來推去的話，那這個業務要歸給誰？現在數發部一定要加快這個工作，然後把數位平台這一塊相關機制建立起來，包括前陣子大家常在講的對數位平台做政治審查，貼文會被審查甚至於被降流等等，我認為落地之後，如果沒有一個機制在，你就更難去約束它的行為，我希望數發部要負起你們責任，儘快的完成相關的工作，讓這些平台有一定的壓力，不能來只想賺臺灣人的錢，卻不想要受到任何的約束，甚至於傷害到臺灣的國家利益，這是沒有辦法接受的，數發部這一塊要加油，要趕快處理好。","我們來看一下，包括數位平台審查用戶言論助長詐騙，警政署臉書有三萬八千則詐騙廣告，到現在為止零開罰，包括從去年到今年有一萬三千件零開罰，數發部，現在是零開罰嗎？"],["吳副處長宜倫：報告委員，我們現在有一些案子在調查中。"],["賴委員瑞隆：什麼時候會完成調查？"],["吳副處長宜倫：應該這個月……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望儘快，好不好？如果連開罰都沒有，詐騙這麼多，三萬八千則的詐騙廣告，包括從去年到今年一萬三千件的詐騙，警政署抓都抓不完，然後大家防不勝防，然後平台如同共犯一樣，詐騙賺詐騙的錢，然後平台賺詐騙人的錢，如果我們連對平台都沒有辦法開罰的話，那就形同沒有工具、沒有嚇阻力嘛！難怪平台業者根本懶得理你，你政府的公信力跟公權力都沒有。詐騙已經是人民最深惡痛絕的一件事情了，如果數發部還這麼消極，我希望儘快開罰，讓大家看到，已經有三萬多件，連檢舉都有一萬多件了，應該要趕快有所作為、有所動作，好不好？"],["吳副處長宜倫：好，是，謝謝委員指導。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝，數發部加油！"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","下一位請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-12","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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早安 正是我要延續剛剛沈伯陽委員的話題就是有關於昨天這個中國國民黨的主席朱立倫因為用不當的類比把這個台灣目前的政治跟希特勒來做惡意的連結以至於在昨天晚上的時候德國在台協會很罕見的是在下班時間而且用英文原文的方式直接點名批判來看一下下一張這個是個最新的圖片"},{"start":41.056,"end":66.415,"text":"我必須要講法國在台協會也連結了德國在台協會他們的聲明荷蘭在台協會也連結了德國在台協會的聲明剛剛我特別去看了一下還有另外歐洲經貿辦事處其實也在昨天晚上連結了德國在台協會的聲明我不知道外交部有沒有看到這些連結"},{"start":67.597,"end":92.63,"text":"有有是我必須要強調這有可能形成一個外交災難我為什麼這樣講因為過去在立法院當中國民黨每一次都對外強調他們佔有60%的民意言下之意這一個一直強調自己擁有60%民意的在野黨正在引發外交危機因為"},{"start":93.99,"end":115.156,"text":"從德國到法國再到荷蘭再到剛剛我看到的歐洲經貿辦事處我知道身為外交人員是國家的你們剛剛包括您的回答都說這個是別的政黨的政爭但是我現在給你看到的是外交部要動起來喔"},{"start":116.796,"end":133.22,"text":"這個顯然已經引發了歐洲其他國家的不滿因為對於歐洲的民眾來說這是一段慘痛的歷史當他們被惡意的扭曲跟曲解而且是一個自稱在台灣擁有60%民意支持的政黨的時候這個會不會是跟國際社會說台灣有60%的民意同意這樣的講法"},{"start":143.762,"end":160.288,"text":"這會不會形成一個新的外交災難尤其是在現在此時此刻是一個歐戰結束80週年的時刻尤其是在歐戰結束80週年這個時刻我想大家都應該要稍微重新來審視一下這樣的一個歷史"},{"start":163.149,"end":184.459,"text":"那麼這樣的一個侵略者 侵略國家 別的國家在國內集權壓迫 造成了很多傷痛的事情那麼人類也為此經歷了一個世界大戰 死傷無數我想我們必須要嚴肅的來面對到這樣的一個問題我們是希望不會造成其他的外交的災難 那外交部也會盡全力"},{"start":185.94,"end":206.195,"text":"來跟其他的國外駐台的辦事處能夠說明這個絕非台灣的主流的一個民意同時我們也會跟其他的部會結合加強台灣民眾尤其是年輕的人對於歷史的一個正確的認識正確的一個解讀"},{"start":206.755,"end":219.431,"text":"好 我覺得這非常重要 本席也不認同國民黨擁有台灣百分之六十的民意的支持更不認同這個是一個台灣百分之六十民意所會講出來的話台灣人民沒有像他們這樣這麼沒有歷史常識但是這個確實是一個非常危險的事情喔 因為"},{"start":226.038,"end":242.887,"text":"對於外交部來講最近真的很忙啦來下一張本席其實發現外交部現在對於我們國內不斷的有造謠的情況發生比如像昨天外交部必須要及時來澄清就是有關於這個美台談判當中沒有涉及匯率"},{"start":243.627,"end":259.462,"text":"那這個部分呢都是外銷轉內銷直接引發國內的恐慌或者是製造事端那麼另外就是在更早之前國民黨的前立委蔡正元不時指控日本前防衛副大臣中山泰秀"},{"start":260.783,"end":270.714,"text":"然後去造謠這個無中生有的事情來抹黑賴清德總統我看到外交部也都第一時間有澄清這個我予以肯定但是其實本席也發現就是鄭次您過去也在國防院當任過執行長你也當過國安會的諮詢委員"},{"start":277.541,"end":298.157,"text":"在這樣的過程當中,我必須要提醒的是從剛剛的希特勒的說法,我不知道你有沒有注意過在2024年的6月12號海峽之聲就曾經用標題說越來越多的證據表明賴清德正在向希特勒靠攏我想你一定知道海峽之聲是一個什麼樣的媒體是,當然,這是中國的統戰媒體"},{"start":301.499,"end":324.411,"text":"而且是跟解放軍有密切的關係所以本席其實要提醒的是在這麼多的國際的亂局當中這個如果也包含著中共聯手內外夾擊一方面中國在國際上面要前置台灣的聲音包括現在外交部你們知道嘛114年度的對外宣傳的總預算是被在野黨砍到一毛不剩"},{"start":325.331,"end":339.448,"text":"當中國在對外發聲而我們國內又有在野黨或者是有心人士在跟中國協同作戰的時候這個時候就變成是外交危機或是外交必須要有所警醒喔政策有沒有觀察"},{"start":340.569,"end":354.956,"text":"有,那麼也跟委員報告,如果容我再稍微說一下那麼在這個俄國侵略烏克蘭之前也是用同樣的一個說法那麼指控一個猶太背景的一個總統是納粹"},{"start":356.477,"end":385.466,"text":"那我想這是一個非常不好的一個說法而且是說用這樣的一個說法這個尤其是用海峽之聲這樣的一種管道來指控那麼我們的總統不時的指控我們總統我覺得是不是釋放出一種什麼樣的一個特別的訊息我們會非常的小心第二個是說我們也會跟這個國際社會再一次的澄清這個絕對不是台灣的主流民意那我們知道是說其實政黨之間有競爭這是一個民主社會裡面"},{"start":386.286,"end":404.053,"text":"才會有存在的一個現象像這樣的一些東西的存在正是證明了我們的國家非但不是一個極權統治的國家是一個這個民主自由的一個典範我們可以溝通這樣的一個概念好 謝謝鄭次的回應這非常的重要當這個中國的戰狼在國際上面"},{"start":404.793,"end":419.421,"text":"不斷的咆哮要升高對立的同時如果台灣內部也變成是戰狼化而且不斷的附和中國這個是一個非常危險的尤其是我剛剛特別提到的那就是現在外交部是沒有對外發聲的經費被砍到剩下副的"},{"start":422.622,"end":446.578,"text":"那這個是相對的困難我們只能再利用更多的宣傳但是可能跟中國對比這種砸錢的遊戲我們是實在也沒辦法玩了來下一張但是我們看到的是說至少過去台灣因為外交不同人的努力以及大家齊心協力我們確實還是看到了一些績效包括這一陣子以來我特別整理了從3月20號比利時聯邦眾議院關切中國持續對台灣的威脅的"},{"start":452.462,"end":479.585,"text":"法案決議案再到這個歐洲議會和波蘭的友台小組捷克的參議院到5月5號就是前幾天美國的眾議院都通過了台灣保證落實法案跟台灣的國際團結法案等等這都證明了就是中國的戰狼外交是失敗的所以他們現在想要用這種扭曲歷史或者是國際上面的決議的方式來"},{"start":481.339,"end":508.857,"text":"讓台灣在國際上消失是越來越沒有辦法是但是在這個部分本席還是要提醒就是當更多的國際友人支持我們的時候我們在對外發聲的部分還是要持續加強是好那麼繼續的我想最後利用主席我利用一點時間就是我們其他的民主夥伴相繼的發聲的時候那這個在我們參與國際組織包括接下來的WHO的會議當中我們是不是可能有更多的進展"},{"start":509.892,"end":535.944,"text":"那麼WHO一直是我們努力的一個方向我們希望WHO、WHA能夠秉持的這一個為所有人的健康那麼也讓沒有不落下任何不落下任何的一個人這樣的一個精神那麼尤其是說在疫情期間台灣的表現也再一次的說明台灣can help那麼我們參與到這樣的一個國際組織絕對是有正面的對於國際社會有正面的幫助那我們也透過兩個事情"},{"start":537.145,"end":566.031,"text":"第一個是對於2758號的一個正確的一個詮釋各個國家紛紛的發聲第二個是說對於我們台灣能夠對於國際社會做出實質貢獻這兩點上面直接說服這個東西不是一個容易的路尤其是在於我們的外交經費被刪減的一個情況之下尤其是在這個國際的宣傳上面有它困難量但是外交部絕對不會放棄我們的職責我們會做所有的方法想出有創意的一些做法來能夠增加國際的支持"},{"start":566.311,"end":589.922,"text":"好 我不希望 我剛剛前面問的第一個問題有關一個德國在台協會這樣的一個聲明包括其他歐洲國家都串聯會影響到我們後續參與國際組織在這裡 雖然歐洲是 夏思黨不在啦因為運功請假但是我要提醒歐洲絲必須要好好的來關注這個事情因為它已經是造成了歐洲國家的大串聯這個不可以等閒視之 好嗎"},{"start":592.486,"end":609.392,"text":"好 我們今天就會跟所有的相關的這個歐洲駐台的這些辦事處能夠有一個互動然後跟他們再次的說明那麼我們會注意這樣的一個事情然後我們也跟他表達說這個一定不是台灣的主流民意好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":450,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時35分）謝謝主席，有請陳政次。"],["陳次長明祺：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：你好，早安政次。我要延續剛剛沈伯洋委員的話題，就是有關昨天中國國民黨主席朱立倫，因為用不當的類比，把臺灣目前的政治跟希特勒「惡意」連結，以至於在昨天晚上的時候，德國在臺協會很罕見的在下班時間，而且用英文原文的方式，直接點名批判。這是最新的圖片，我必須要講法國在臺協會也連結了德國在臺協會的聲明，荷蘭在臺協會也連結了德國在臺協會的聲明。剛剛我特別去看了一下，另外還有歐洲經貿辦事處其實也在昨天晚上連結了德國在臺協會的聲明，我不知道外交部有沒有看到這些連結？"],["陳次長明祺：有。"],["林委員楚茵：有。我必須要強調，這有可能形成一個外交災難，我為什麼這樣講？因為過去在立法院當中，國民黨每一次都對外強調他們占有60%的民意，言下之意，這個一直強調自己擁有60%民意的在野黨，正在引發外交危機。因為從德國到法國、再到荷蘭、再到剛剛我看到的歐洲經貿辦事處，我知道身為外交人員是代表國家，剛剛包括您的回答都說這個是別的政黨的政爭，但是我現在給你看到的是外交部要動起來哦！這個顯然已經引發了歐洲其他國家的不滿，因為對於歐洲的民眾來說，這是一段慘痛的歷史。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["林委員楚茵：當他們被惡意的扭曲跟曲解，而且是被一個自稱在臺灣擁有60%民意支持的政黨所為，這個會不會是跟國際社會說臺灣有60%的民意同意這樣的講法？這會不會形成一個新的外交災難？尤其是在現在、此時此刻是歐戰結束80週年的時刻。"],["陳次長明祺：尤其是在歐戰結束80週年這個時刻，我想大家都應該要稍微重新來審視歷史，侵略者侵略別的國家、在國內極權壓迫，造成了很多傷痛的事情，人類也為此經歷了世界大戰，死傷無數。我們必須要嚴肅地面對這樣的問題，我們希望不會造成其他外交的災難，外交部也會盡全力來跟其他國外駐臺的辦事處說明，這個絕非臺灣主流的民意。同時我們也會跟其他部會結合，加強臺灣民眾，尤其是年輕人對於這個歷史正確的認識、正確的解讀。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我覺得這非常重要。本席也不認同國民黨擁有臺灣60%民意的支持，更不認同這是臺灣60%民意會講出來的話，臺灣人民沒有像他們這麼沒有歷史常識，但這確實是一個非常危險的事情。對於外交部來講，最近真的很忙，本席發現現在國內不斷地有造謠的情況發生，比如像昨天外交部必須要及時來澄清，就是關於美臺談判當中沒有涉及匯率，這個部分都是外銷轉內銷，直接引發國內恐慌或者製造事端。另外，更早之前國民黨的前立委蔡正元不實指控日本前防衛副大臣中山泰秀，造謠無中生有的事情抹黑賴清德總統，我看到外交部也都在第一時間有澄清，這個我予以肯定。但是本席也發現，政次過去也在國防院擔任過執行長，也當過國安會的諮詢委員，在這樣的過程當中，我必須要提醒的是剛剛的希特勒的說法，我不知道你有沒有注意過，在2024年6月12號海峽之聲就曾經用標題說，越來越多的證據表明賴清德正在向希特勒靠攏，我想你一定知道海峽之聲是一個什麼樣的媒體。"],["陳次長明祺：是，當然，這是中國的統戰媒體。"],["林委員楚茵：而且也是跟解放軍有相關。"],["陳次長明祺：是，有密切的關係。"],["林委員楚茵：好，本席其實要提醒的是，在這麼多國際的亂局當中，這個如果也包含中共聯手內外夾擊，一方面中國在國際上面要箝制臺灣的聲音，包括外交部知道114年度對外宣傳的總預算是被在野黨砍到一毛不剩，當中國在對外發聲，而我們國內又有在野黨或是有心人士在跟中國協同作戰，這個時候就變成是外交危機，外交部必須要有所警醒。政次，有沒有觀察？"],["陳次長明祺：有，跟委員報告，容我再稍微說一下，俄國侵略烏克蘭之前也是用同樣的說法，指控一個猶太背景的總統是納粹，我想這是一個非常不好的說法。尤其是用海峽之聲這樣的管道不實指控我們的總統，是不是釋放出一種什麼樣的特別訊息，我們會非常小心。","第二個，我們也會跟國際社會再一次澄清，這個絕對不是臺灣的主流民意。我們知道其實政黨之間有競爭是民主社會才會存在的現象，像一些這樣的東西存在，正是證明我們國家非但不是一個集權統治的國家，而是一個民主自由的典範，我們會溝通這樣的概念。"],["林委員楚茵：謝謝政次的回應，這非常的重要。當中國的戰狼在國際上面不斷地咆哮，要升高對立的同時，如果臺灣內部也變成是戰狼化，而且不斷地附和中國，這個是非常危險的，尤其是我剛剛特別提到的，就是現在外交部沒有對外發聲的經費，被砍到剩下負的，這個是相對困難，我們只能再利用更多的宣傳，但是對比中國這種砸錢的遊戲，我們實在也沒辦法玩了。","但是至少過去臺灣因為外交部同仁的努力，以及大家齊心協力，我們確實還是看到了一些績效。包括這陣子以來，我特別整理從3月20號比利時聯邦眾議院關切中國持續對臺灣威脅的決議案，再到歐洲議會和波蘭友臺小組、捷克參議院，到5月5號，也就是前幾天美國眾議院都通過了臺灣保證落實法案跟臺灣國際團結法案等等，這都證明了中國的戰狼外交是失敗的，所以他們現在想要用這種扭曲歷史或是國際上面決議的方式，讓臺灣在國際上消失是越來越沒有辦法，但是在這個部分本席還是要提醒，當更多的國際友人支持我們的時候，我們在對外發聲的部分還是要持續加強。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["林委員楚茵：主席，最後我利用一點時間。我們其他的民主夥伴相繼發聲的時候，在參與國際組織，包括接下來的WHA會議當中，我們是不是可能有更多的進展？"],["陳次長明祺：WHO一直是我們努力的一個方向，我們希望WHA能夠秉持為所有人的健康，不落下任何一個人這樣的精神，尤其在疫情期間，臺灣的表現也再一次的說明Taiwan Can Help，我們參與到這樣的國際組織，絕對是對於國際社會有正面的幫助。我們也透過兩個事情，第一個是對於2758號正確的詮釋，各個國家紛紛發聲。第二個，臺灣能夠對於國際社會做出實質貢獻，這兩點上面持續地說服各國。這不是一個容易的路，尤其是在外交經費被刪減的情況之下，在國際宣傳上面有它的困難，但是外交部絕對不會放棄我們的職責，我們會用所有的方法，想出有創意的一些做法增加國際的支持。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我剛剛前面問的第一個問題，有關德國在臺協會這樣的聲明，包括其他歐洲國家都串聯，不希望會影響到我們後續參與國際組織。雖然歐洲司司長不在，因公請假，但是我要提醒歐洲司，必須要好好的關注這個事情。"],["陳次長明祺：一定。"],["林委員楚茵：因為它已經造成了歐洲國家的大串聯，這個不可以等閒視之，好嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：好，我們今天就會跟所有相關歐洲駐臺辦事處能夠有互動，跟他們再次說明，我們會注意這樣的事情，我們也會表達這個一定不是臺灣的主流民意。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵的質詢。","接下來由王定宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-12","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","馬文君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra 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總裁"},{"start":145.666,"end":162.751,"text":"我認為貨幣因素當中的草匯突入因當你講這個或許有這個可能停留過久但我就就教於你還有兩個可能性會造成這個預期新齡第一個也就是廣場協議的部分1.0可能會產生2.0的版本你是到五月初才說嘛對不對"},{"start":165.761,"end":181.028,"text":"因為我一直聽到你是五月出台書但是這個1.0的這個印象對台灣人來說其實衝擊實在太大了除了日本之外就是我們嘛這是第一個我覺得你的表態跟說明太晚"},{"start":181.308,"end":196.907,"text":"因為大家不是所有人對整體經濟都對你這麼熟悉嗎這是第一個第二個呢有人提到所謂的這一個那個經濟學人的大麥克指數的時候直接抵明台灣會升值到13.3的時候老師說我沒有看到央行有任何的一個反駁跟說明啊"},{"start":198.507,"end":214.313,"text":"而且媒體一直燒燒燒燒好多天了到昨天謝金河還在講央行有沒有在這個進行反駁也沒有所以以至於這種媒體的推波助瀾之下再加上這個突應來襲就造成了這一波的急漲啊"},{"start":215.313,"end":230.812,"text":"我看法是這樣子那個委員說的也沒有錯不過我們也有事實上就是說當然就是說就是說第一時間來澄清是效果會更好啦"},{"start":231.192,"end":246.271,"text":"對啊當然啊你沒有神經啊但是我們就是說只有在私下跟這些市場的評論者太保守了啦對啦 這個是有一點我們以後又會要記取這個教訓你知道商業週刊的那個渲染力有多強"},{"start":247.012,"end":261.486,"text":"他還有一定的權威性13.3%裡面沒有任何的反駁結果讓他燒來燒去燒了半個月然後第二個你也是五月初的時候才開始講說所謂的廣場協定的2.0我是前幾天的時候在聽你講說廣場協定2.0不可能出現那我對照現在的資本規模確實你講的有道理"},{"start":267.412,"end":293.317,"text":"我不是否認但是至少你的時間點timing點要抓好嘛是是是找個份預期性越來越大你不否認吧對對 委員的一個建議啊我們來我們吸取教訓我們會以後就是說對於這個就是說這個就是說星星之火可以燎原對 沒有錯嘛那確實啦確實啦那在在這一個在這方面呢我想呢我們應該啊就是說因為"},{"start":294.517,"end":316.995,"text":"另外有說以前要及時撲滅猩猩之火沒有錯啦你現在成為機構所有的消防車都在你那邊隨便灑一下就熄啦第三個部分就是禿鷹那我問一下這波禿鷹你們做調查你們做精檢你會不會使出楊金榮三個方式說命他離開或命他馬上"},{"start":317.655,"end":345.794,"text":"我現在我們前一次在說的時候就是說我們有觀察到這個但是我們也沒有說他就是禿鷹但是我們就說有這個跡象疑似禿鷹疑似這個禿鷹的現象當然我們說禿鷹禿鷹的定義跟我所說的禿鷹疑似禿鷹你定義侵告我們應該就是說是他吵過如果再不走了是嗎對但是這個我們就盯得很緊"},{"start":346.334,"end":372.011,"text":"對 如果再不走的時候呢然後呢 現在呢 現在呢 我們就是去我們昨天就開始 我們就去專案檢查對 我們就去專案檢查以前彭總裁的方式就要拿出來了對 我覺得就是說 我們有做這一點好 這個就希望看到有破裂的做法才會有遏制的效果啦 好不好另外一個部分喔 就教育您的部分喔"},{"start":373.012,"end":396.768,"text":"有關於這個總量管制的部分總量信用管制的部分我記得我們第一波的時候當初的基本職中率我去查過是36.64你開始啟動的時候我最近調查最新的是36.89你上一波的檢討的時候認為37.1集中度還是太高對不對好現在當下來了我們現在時間點這個時間點不過是5月8號"},{"start":402.455,"end":430.542,"text":"到你六月的時候你監視還有一段時間對如果按照這種抖降的趨勢的話他Maybe是有可能是低於第一波的這個時間點你會不會重新做一些政策上的考量我們會看看啦因為我們給他要一年的時間去自己調整啦對 當然是要調整時間對我只是問一下你一直有一個量化考學的指標嘛現在如果低於第一波"},{"start":431.363,"end":442.674,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說我們都一直在強調我們會滾動式的檢討對 滾動式的檢討滾到後來你也是要好好的面對這個問題滾到現在已經快36.6是差不多啦我們會再檢討繼續滾"},{"start":451.943,"end":473.064,"text":"再檢討啊如果滾下去的時候怎麼辦不會我就問你這個問題啊不會不會不會不會滾下去不我意思就是說我們對於這個我看喔快要滾下去了啦按照這個趨勢快要滾下去了滾到36.64的時候你現在心裡頭的想法是什麼"},{"start":473.704,"end":501.379,"text":"六月份的李監事會不會討論大家都會看而且我還跟你對照一個史上最大的家屋草單季喔破三萬一千戶這剛發生為什麼這樣講呢因為你的命令啊就像聖旨一樣銀行都要遵守後面就有軟刺在那邊每個月的房地產新作額度不能超過預款的這個這個還款的額度為限那其實啊有打到"},{"start":502.68,"end":523.577,"text":"誰 打到那種患無主啊患無主現在銀行都不想要借啦都要竊竊幹嘛有的沒有的這個其實民間是有怨言的然後這一波的三萬一千戶當中到底有多少戶你可能要請財政部 請金管會去了解一下不要打到無辜你可以打投資客但是你不要打到患無主"},{"start":524.398,"end":543.894,"text":"我現在有聽到類似這樣的那個民怨出現所以說總裁我才特別來這邊提醒你法人的部分你要繼續原格我沒有意見法人要拿到資本槓桿操作的可能性很大而且他們還款能力很強我認為甚至要屈原也都OK但是你不要打到自然人你不要打到幻物族可以嗎"},{"start":545.014,"end":571.761,"text":"對 我們會檢討好 麻煩檢討一下好 麻煩檢討一下總裁我最後看到你這個報告當中寫到的這個所謂的主權基金三個來源三個來源 三種方式一 財政部發債二 財政部撥款三 財政部出資設資那軟刺我就問你了那個總裁稍坐一下轉場上已經講了三種方式了嘛結果軟刺你們財政部出來的這個報告實在是"},{"start":573.962,"end":598.408,"text":"老實講齁 以不變應萬變總裁稍等一下 我還有一個問題要請教你 抱歉 我是偏要休息一下以不變應萬變你們怎麼可以這樣子 部長去開亞營啊你們就不變應萬變你們至少要跟他賴一下嘛你們這幾次的報告當中從來沒有變而且 還是蘇建榮財政部長呼籲你們前任財政部長"},{"start":600.508,"end":627.095,"text":"還說要主權基金要成立咧你們連跟他A口一下都沒有沒有跟他捧場一下都沒有這個跟委員報告這基本上對這個主權基金這一部分因為目前還在討論當中所以我們對啊你們後來就寫行政院指示啊你們連行政院還是交給你們做評估行政院指示你們連評估都沒有評估這一點我老實講很不滿啊好 請你回去請你回去我請那個總裁一下總裁我最後超時一分鐘一下"},{"start":628.335,"end":647.464,"text":"兩個模式啦 一個新加坡模式 一個韓國模式啦總裁 你比較該哪個模式如果依照我們現在的這個央行有2.7%的外匯存體委外操作的話大約金額有140到150億美元的話你這個模式聽起來是委託給主權基金操作我看起來好像比較偏韓國模式 是不是"},{"start":649.032,"end":676.513,"text":"我想就是說主權基金的一個成立先就是說因為現在政府我聽他們就說現在要來確定就是說是不是要成立那成立了以後慢慢他的步驟他就慢慢的會明瞭出來到最後資金的來源的時候我們再來用什麼確定就是說一定要設立那中央銀行用什麼方式來協助好就不管黑貓白貓只要會抓老鼠就好貓"},{"start":677.153,"end":681.35,"text":"不管新加坡或韓國模式都可以是不是OK 謝謝總裁的回顧 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":479,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時24分）謝謝主席，有請楊總裁跟財政部阮次長。"],["主席：請楊總裁、財政部阮次長。"],["楊總裁金龍：郭委員早。"],["郭委員國文：總裁最近辛苦了。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：其實就美元部分的走勢，本席曾經在委員會當中就教於你，你兩次都斬釘截鐵回答本席一定是強勢美元，但是美元指數是美元對六種國際貨幣的加權平均計算來的，它從川普上任的時候是108，目前一路一直走到100，顯然你的預測跟現在事實的發展有一些不一樣的地方，這是第一個。第二個，你也常常引述美國財政部的說法，問題是財政部是財政部，商業部是商業部啊！商業部希望走貶，財政部希望走強，依照這一波下來之後，它還是一直盤旋在100左右，可能因為一個訊息就跑上去，可能一個訊息跑下來。我想要第三次就教總裁，你認為美元會走強還是走弱？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我剛剛在答復其他委員的時候，我就說匯率說實在是很難去預測的。"],["郭委員國文：不好預測？可是你上次講的斬釘截鐵啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，沒有，我剛剛也跟……"],["郭委員國文：你上次的講法是3月13號……"],["楊總裁金龍：我上次的講法是說……"],["郭委員國文：去年是……"],["楊總裁金龍：美國的財政部，每一個財政部的部長都希望……"],["郭委員國文：我改天調帶子給你看，我跟你argue這個沒有意思啦！我待會事後給媒體，去年10月你斬釘截鐵說會走強，為什麼問這個？這個當然跟匯率有所相關啊！就這一波的匯率來說，我也對照你的臉書，我們是急升到8.26%嘛，然後日本是緩升到8.99%，緩升跟急升之間就結果來說是相同，那為什麼我們突然之間急升呢？我不曉得你有沒有想過這個原因？但是你有講出來幾個可能性，第一個，當然就是外資匯入買股；第二個，是進出口商拋售美元；第三個，就是所謂的熱錢跟禿鷹嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["郭委員國文：我想你現在這些說法都是一些貨幣因素，可是預期心理應該是心理因素啊！我抓兩個東西啦，總裁，我認為貨幣因素當中的炒匯禿鷹，你講或許有這個可能、停留過久，但我要就教於你，還有兩個可能性會造成這個預期心理，第一個就是廣場協議的部分，1.0可能會產生2.0的版本，你是到5月初才說嘛，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：我一直……沒有……"],["郭委員國文：因為我一直聽到你是5月初才說，但是1.0的這個印象對臺灣人來說其實衝擊實在太大了，除了日本之外就是我們嘛，我覺得你表態跟說明太晚，因為不是所有人對總體經濟都像你這麼熟悉嘛，這是第一個。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["郭委員國文：第二個，有人提到所謂經濟學人的大麥克指數直接點名臺灣會升值到13.3的時候，老實說我沒有看到央行有任何的反駁跟說明，結果媒體一直燒、燒了好多天了，到昨天謝金河還在講，央行有沒有進行反駁？也沒有！以致於在媒體的推波助瀾之下，再加上禿鷹來襲，結果就造成了這一波的急漲，我的看法是這樣子啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦，委員說的也沒有錯，事實上我們當然第一時間來澄清效果會更好啦，這是第一個……"],["郭委員國文：對啊，當然啊，你沒有澄清嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：我們只有在私下跟這些市場的評論者……"],["郭委員國文：太保守了啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦，這個是有一點，我們以後會記取這個教訓。"],["郭委員國文：你知道商業周刊渲染力有多強？它還有一定的權威性耶！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["郭委員國文：對啊，講13.3但你們沒有任何的反駁，結果任它燒來燒去、燒了半個月！"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦！"],["郭委員國文：第二個，你也是5月初的時候才開始講所謂的廣場協定2.0，老實講，我是前幾天在聽你講廣場協定2.0不可能出現，然後我對照現在的資本規模，確實你講的有道理，我不是否認，但是至少你的時間點、timing要抓好嘛！早知道預期性越來越大，你不否認嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對，委員的建議我們會來吸取教訓，以後……「星星之火，可以燎原」這個確實啦！"],["郭委員國文：確實啦，而且你是……"],["楊總裁金龍：在這方面，我想我們應該要……"],["郭委員國文：要及時撲滅星星之火啦，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對，沒有錯啦！"],["郭委員國文：你現在是權威機構，所有的消防車都在你那邊，隨便灑一下就熄啦！第三個部分就是禿鷹，那我問一下，這一波禿鷹你們做調查、你們做金檢啊！你會不會使出楊金龍三個方式，逼它離開或命他馬上……有沒有可能？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們前一次在說的時候，我們有觀察到這個，但是我們也沒有說他就是禿鷹啦！但是我們就是說有這個跡象……"],["郭委員國文：疑似禿鷹？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，疑似禿鷹的現象，當然我們說禿鷹的定義跟我所說的是稍微……"],["郭委員國文：疑似禿鷹，你必須警告！"],["楊總裁金龍：疑似啦，我們應該說他炒匯啦！"],["郭委員國文：如果再不走的時候呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，但是這個我們就盯得很緊……"],["郭委員國文：對，如果再不走的時候呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：然後我們昨天就開始去專案檢查。"],["郭委員國文：對，就要求……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們去專案檢查……"],["郭委員國文：以前彭總裁的方式就要拿出來了？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我覺得我們有做這一點。"],["郭委員國文：好，就希望看到有魄力的作法，才會有遏止的效果啦，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，委員這個建議很好。"],["郭委員國文：另外一個就教於您的是有關於信用總量管制的部分，我記得我們第一波的時候，我去查過當初你開始啟動時的基本集中度是36.64%，我最近調查最新的是36.89%，但你上一波檢討的時候認為37.1%集中度還是太高，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["郭委員國文：好，現在down下來了，現在的這個時間點不過是5月8號，到你6月理監事會還有一段時間，如果按照這種陡降的趨勢的話，它maybe是低於第一波的，這個時間點你會不會重新做一些政策上的考量？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們會看看啦，因為我們給它一年的時間自己去調整啦！"],["郭委員國文：對，當然是要時間調整，我只是問一下，你一直有一個量化、科學的指標嘛！現在如果低於第一波……"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，我們都一直在強調會滾動式的檢討。"],["郭委員國文：對，滾動式的檢討，滾到後來你也是要好好地面對這個問題啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊！所以……"],["郭委員國文：滾到現在已經36.64%，差不多了啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：我們會檢討。"],["郭委員國文：還在滾？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們會再檢討。"],["郭委員國文：繼續滾？"],["楊總裁金龍：再檢討……"],["郭委員國文：如果滾下去的時候怎麼辦？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會。"],["郭委員國文：我就問你這個問題啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：不會。"],["郭委員國文：不會？不會滾下去？"],["楊總裁金龍：不，我的意思是說我們對於房……"],["郭委員國文：我看快要滾下去了啦！按照這個趨勢快要滾下去了啦！滾到36.64%的時候，你現在心裡頭的想法是什麼？6月份的理監事會不會討論？大家都會看。而且我讓你對照看一個史上最大的交屋潮，單季破3萬1,000戶，這剛發生，為什麼這樣講呢？因為你的命令就像聖旨一樣，銀行都要遵守，後面阮次在，每個月的房地產新作額度以不能超逾還款額度為限，其實有打到誰？打到換屋族啊！換屋族現在銀行都不想要借啦，因為都要切結有的沒的，這個其實民間是有怨言的。然後這一波3萬1,000戶當中到底有多少戶，你可能要請財政部、請金管會去了解一下，不要打到無辜，你可以打投資客，但是你不要打到換屋族，我現在有聽到類似這樣的民怨出現，所以總裁我特別來這邊提醒你啦！法人的部分你要繼續嚴格，我沒有意見，法人要拿資本槓桿操作的可能性很大，而且還款能力很強，我認為甚至要趨嚴也都OK，但是你不要打到自然人，你不要打到換屋族，可以嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，我們會檢討，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：麻煩檢討一下。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員的提醒。"],["郭委員國文：總裁，最後，我看到你報告當中寫到所謂主權基金三個來源、三種方式，一是財政部發債；二是財政部撥款；三是財政部出資設置。阮次我就問你，總裁已經講了三種方式了，結果阮次你們財政部出來的這個報告老實講實在是以不變應萬變……總裁等一下，我還有一個問題要請教你，不好意思，先旁邊休息一下。你們以不變應萬變，怎麼可以這樣子？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告……"],["郭委員國文：部長去開亞銀，你們就以不變應萬變，你們至少要跟他LINE一下嘛！你們這幾次的報告當中從來沒有變，而且還是蘇建榮耶！前財政部長呼籲耶！你們前任的財政部長耶！還說主權基金要成立，你們連跟他echo一下都沒有，跟他捧場一下都沒有？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，基本上對主權基金這一部分，因為目前還在討論當中，所以我們在報告當中沒有寫得太細太多。"],["郭委員國文：對，你們後來就寫行政院指示啊！行政院還是交給你們做評估，行政院指示，你們連評估都沒有評估，老實講這一點我很不滿！好，請你回去。","我請一下總裁。我最後超時1分鐘。兩個模式，一個是新加坡模式，一個是韓國模式，總裁，你比較喜歡哪個模式？如果依照現在央行有2.7%的外匯存底委外操作，大約金額有140到150億美元的話，你這個模式聽起來是委託給主權基金操作，我看起來好像比較偏韓國模式，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想主權基金的成立，因為我聽他們就是說，現在要來確定是不是要成立，那成立了以後，它的步驟就慢慢地會明瞭出來，到最後資金來源的時候我們再來用什麼……確定就是一定要設立，那中央銀行用什麼方式來協助。"],["郭委員國文：好，就是不管黑貓、白貓，只要會抓老鼠的就是好貓，不管新加坡或韓國模式都可以，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，看看到時候……"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝總裁的回復。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員的質詢。","下一位請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","王世堅","林思銘","涂權吉","王鴻薇","謝龍介","陳玉珍","陳冠廷","林楚茵","翁曉玲"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、國家發展委員會\n劉主任委員鏡清、勞動部洪部長申翰、銓敘部施部長能傑就「我國如果要設立國家主權基金，中\n央銀行與政府相關基金（如四大基金等）所扮演的角色為何？」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00006"}}},{"id":"161059","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161059","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1a2a31c59529e7a6bd3023b910515704e5f5e885147c9c9bcb70c920121590e455ea18f28b6918d91.mp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有請次長 謝謝"},{"start":12.601,"end":32.814,"text":"因為這次今天的題目是跟這些南島國家南島於西的國家有關所以我先稍微問幾個小細節但是在這個之前剛好昨天發生了一件事情就是德國在台協會有特別發文針對國民黨的主席去指控對方是納粹這樣的用語"},{"start":34.995,"end":46.678,"text":"那我覺得說真的啦大家對外都是要一致所以這雖然這是一個國民黨的行為但畢竟這是一個等於是德國在海協會等於是一個外交上他們提出這樣的一個譴責那我們應該用什麼樣的態度來回應"},{"start":47.81,"end":67.291,"text":"那麼想說德國在戰後對於他們自己過去這個侵略別的國家那麼對內發展這個極權統治然後壓迫國內民眾深刻的一個反省這個我想這個應該是世界的一個共識那麼昨天的這個德國在台協會也說不要"},{"start":67.791,"end":93.758,"text":"做一個不當的類比我想這也是一個很好的呼籲當然我們沒有透過這個東西來介入到這個國內的政黨之間的競爭或者他們互相的一些這個說法但我覺得是說對於就外交的這個觀點來看的時候那麼我們尊重別的國家歷史尤其一個國家能夠深刻的反省他們過去的侵略的行為他們過去的這個獨裁統治我覺得這是我們要必須尊重的地方"},{"start":94.398,"end":121.76,"text":"對 因為我覺得這件事情畢竟它就是一個我覺得算是一個外交事件那我現在覺得比較困擾的地方就是說像我前陣子在接待這些外賓的時候他們也會問說那為什麼你們在這個立法院的黨邊會說你是美國的間諜那因為他這樣講好像把美國當作是一個很負面的名詞那今天這個等於是國民黨的主席在用這樣的一個詞語的時候其實在 當然是在外交上面我認為當然是一定是不當啦但是我們要怎麼去解釋說現在台灣產生這樣的一個現象"},{"start":124.302,"end":147.407,"text":"為什麼會有這一個國會的最大黨然後會用這樣的方式來指責有時候我們可能還是需要一個對其他的國家的一個完整的說明因為我覺得當然我們可以講說這是一個政治上的對方在攻防但我覺得就是說台灣在尤其是這個歷史脈絡尤其是這五六年以來到底為什麼這樣的一個用詞可能變多了那我們應該要怎麼去做因為這個最早期這些用語都是中國在講的"},{"start":148.307,"end":166.54,"text":"中國很愛用這些納粹、蓋世太保等等的用語所以這種因素是怎麼進入到台灣社會今天我覺得其實我們也是可以去做一個說明讓國外的人知道現在台灣產生的一個現象小小的建議回到今天的題目因為今天題目最主要還是"},{"start":168.141,"end":192.141,"text":"我們的這個南島語系相關的一個國家那第一個呢這也是最近的一個新聞就是說這個中國對帛琉的滲透手法的一個系統化就是說那這個當然呢因為是我們的邦交國他想要去爭取想要去滲透這個所在多有但我想要問的反而是另外一個就是我想次長也應該知道我們之前都有在做這一個所謂的中國滲透指數是那我稍微在這個review的過程當中我就發現這個這個"},{"start":196.524,"end":214.828,"text":"以新加坡、馬來西亞、印尼等等這些國家為例這個印尼的排名在我們的指數裡面開始往前了然後即使其他的國家看起來稍微掉了一點比如說馬來西亞等等但是其他的分數其實都還是很高所以我把它幾個稍微做了一下盤點這個今天有點蕩蕩的"},{"start":217.89,"end":240.871,"text":"第一個呢這個是印尼的部分那個比較深顏色的那個圈圈是這一次那比較淡顏色的那一個紅色呢是上一次2022啦也就是說這兩年之內呢印尼呢在那個中國對印尼的影響力軍事還有一般的這種社會比如說像TikTok的使用等等之類還有在學術它就變得比較強了那另外呢我們再看到這個"},{"start":242.752,"end":267.305,"text":"這個新加坡新加坡反而是媒體的影響變強我覺得這是一個警訊然後最後呢我記得這邊有列了馬來西亞就是馬來西亞是在軍事然後還有在這一個媒體之內都變多了然後還有科技所以就是說呢像他們這種滲透尤其是在這幾個說真的對我們來講也都是要爭取的國家那這個都有在特定的幾個面向增強那這個針對這一點外交部有沒有什麼策略"},{"start":268.463,"end":283.754,"text":"當然我們這個就整個的媒體,我想重要的東西對於FEMI,那麼剛才委員所提到,像對於媒體對於各界的這個進行的這種滲透的這樣的一個事情,或是透過影響力作戰來進行的這種對於他的這個認知的這個形塑。"},{"start":287.717,"end":303.679,"text":"那麼我們一定要提供一個另外一個另類的論述我們希望能夠分享我們怎麼樣子在台灣能夠去跟這個外國的這個影響力的這個作戰能夠對抗的過程我想這個很多的單位在做我們政府也結合了民間的一個力量"},{"start":304.079,"end":331.771,"text":"同時他也是在我們全社會任性的這個考量裡面那麼希望能夠透過我們的公司合作透過我們的外交上面的交換的關係同時也跟委員報告是說這是一個完整的東西包括從智庫包括從為學者學術的交流到政府的這個組織的互動我們希望能夠來跟這個友邦在這上面理念相近的國家能夠有好的一個互動能夠共同的來對抗這個中國在這個地方進行的這個認知作戰"},{"start":332.851,"end":347.366,"text":"以菲律賓為例他們非常重視這樣的一個問題他們也尋求跟我們能夠經驗分享那麼菲律賓我們剛才不在委員的提到裡面來說他們也面對到非常多的媒體的滲透"},{"start":350.409,"end":376.381,"text":"有利於這個大陸的這樣的一個言論的一個形塑那麼像在您所提到的馬來西亞這個印尼跟這個新加坡那都會面對到同樣的問題我想這個透過公司公司協力透過這樣的很好多層次的一個互動我們希望大家能夠共同面對到這樣但是最後面來說的話一個還是一個他們的執政的這個想法他們選擇跟誰站得比較近第二個是我們"},{"start":376.901,"end":403.528,"text":"很願意跟他們的各個層面來交流如果說他們的執政黨對於這個東西比較不重視的話我們希望能夠跟他們的民間社會跟他們的學術界能夠有多的互動對我覺得跟民間的交流真的很重要因為我覺得像這個軍事的增強外交部大概不太能做什麼啦但是譬如說媒體的部分假如他們媒體的滲透變多就表示他們在當地接收資訊的時候可能中國的資訊就變多了這也是說真的就是過去台灣就是我剛剛前面那個問題過去台灣這個"},{"start":405.869,"end":434.769,"text":"幾年以來中國的資訊在台灣變得非常非常的多所以才會像那種中國像納粹啊什麼等等的用語真的是非常滲透到我們整個台灣人對於這個彼此之間的攻擊那其他的國家也可能會有面臨一樣的狀況因為它等於中國的媒體變多嘛那我們在做這個總和外交的時候我們非常強調像剛剛提到智庫啊學者啊等等的交流但是就是對於一般人民這一個部分我就好幾次在這個外交部的質詢都一再的強調就是因為"},{"start":435.889,"end":455.603,"text":"因為剛剛我們講的這幾個媒體的中國聲道的加強他們的人民會被影響那我們要怎麼去反過來能夠去影響他們也會變得非常的重要不然他們就偏聽嘛他們可能就只會聽其中一邊的聲音那我們的聲音會變少那這當然跟我們的預算有很大的關係啦但是無論如何就是要怎麼去加強這一塊我覺得應該是最重要的"},{"start":455.623,"end":470.658,"text":"我們最近在跟外館的這個溝通互動上面我也請他們特別注意到有關於這個所謂的社群媒體上面我們是不是能夠找一些網紅能夠比較是客觀中立的網紅然後把我們的資料提供給他們"},{"start":471.479,"end":496.224,"text":"但是事實上有的時候就是說在社交媒體上面的這個空間畢竟很多的網紅還是有他的流量的一個需求還有他的一個可能有一些精誠的考慮那這個方面因為的確像委員所說的我們很多的預算比較有困難所以我們希望我也鼓勵我們的外館能夠用比較有創意的做法比如說找"},{"start":496.924,"end":512.31,"text":"更多的網紅來報導我們的這個活動這個東西我們在這個努力加強對 因為我覺得齁這個內容的本身應該是非常的重要因為中國在砸這樣的東西的時候它的錢會越砸越多那如果我們跟它變成一種金錢上的軍備競賽我看大概也是贏不了"},{"start":512.91,"end":539.413,"text":"所以就是說外館在這件事情上面要怎麼多多去跟當地的NGO合作因為這個NGO有動能那NGO的動能它可能雖然只佔當地的社會不到百分之一但是它是能夠常常上街頭的它講話可能會有對人民的說服力我覺得這方面的加強可能甚至會比學者來得更為重要那麼我們就遵照委員的指導我們在加強跟公民社會的互動上面"},{"start":539.733,"end":567.036,"text":"我們也請我們這個台灣的公民社會團體關心這個問題的公民團體包括增加媒體識讀提升媒體識讀的公民團體一起來合作努力對然後這個我剛好就連結到不好意思再給我30秒就是說呢我們看到我外交部有這個海外青年宣傳的先鋒人才啦那這先鋒人才其實是對對方對方的那個人才來做培育我覺得這個應該就是可以加強的部分因為他們很有可能他的出身本身他可能就是NGO然後呢他又有動人"},{"start":567.757,"end":582.632,"text":"然後如果他能夠進入這樣的一個專案他就能夠在當地對於我們台灣到底現在在國際社會的處境啊我們台灣目前主張的這個民主的價值有多重要啊為什麼我們在對抗中國這樣遏止的這樣的一個侵略啊其實這個對他們來講在這樣的一個專案裡面我認為是應該可以再往下發展"},{"start":585.765,"end":609.299,"text":"我們完全認同,那麼事實上就好像以今天的這個主題原住民外交為例那麼我們也找了很多特別很多的太平洋島國的青年領袖來台灣一段時間跟我們的公民社會團體跟外交部跟我們的政府跟我們的民意代表能夠互動,能夠提升就像剛才委員所說,我們不太可能跟他玩金錢遊戲"},{"start":610.72,"end":636.682,"text":"那麼中國的這個整個的經濟量體那麼大他可以做這個很多用黨活的力量我們希望能夠建構跟這個民間社會跟這個社區領袖未來的社區領袖之間緊密的關係我們在我常常提到是說如果他們在做一帶一路這些大的這種土木工程的話那麼我們希望能夠增加他的苛責性有公民社會的負擔是我們能夠著重的重點"},{"start":637.342,"end":665.129,"text":"對啦 因為我覺得像今天排這個題目它之所以還有一個重要性就是原民來講說真的這個因為中國現在對原民也是做出很多的動作他們嘗試要把原住民做重新的定義嘛而且是對台灣的原住民做重新的定義那如果我們這邊沒有一個相對應的對策它應該就不是單純原民會的事情了它應該會是跟外交部有關的因為它這個定義是要對其他的國際社會說我能夠去定義台灣的原住民這個對我們來講是危險的是 這非常重要的問題那我想說"},{"start":666.769,"end":687.541,"text":"這個中國人看跟我們這邊看原住民的事情是不一樣他們是用所謂的少數民族對我們來說原住民不是少數民族原住民是這個地方他的原來的主人那麼說面臨到後來的社會的變遷所以我們對於原住民看著他的地位他是原來的這個地方的主人跟他說"},{"start":688.021,"end":702.677,"text":"它只是一個少數的一個必要所以我們也希望在國際上面能夠結合有同樣的想法的這個國家或者是民間公民社會的領袖原住民的這個領袖原住民的這個社群一起來promote這樣的一個概念好那謝謝市長謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":428,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時22分）謝謝主席。有請次長。"],["陳次長明祺：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：次長好。因為今天的題目是跟南島語系國家有關，所以我先稍微問幾個小細節，但是在此之前，昨天剛好發生了一件事情，就是德國在臺協會特別發文，主要是針對國民黨主席指控對方是納粹的用語。說真的，我覺得大家對外要一致，雖然這是國民黨的行為，但畢竟這等於是德國在臺協會在外交上提出的譴責，我們應該要用什麼樣的態度來回應？"],["陳次長明祺：德國在戰後對於他們過去侵略別的國家、對內發展極權統治壓迫國內民眾深刻的反省，這應該是世界的共識，昨天德國在臺協會也說不要做不當的類比，這也是一個很好的呼籲。當然我們沒有透過這個東西介入國內政黨之間的競爭或是他們互相的一些說法，我覺得就外交的觀點來看，我們尊重別的國家的歷史，尤其一個國家能夠深刻反省他們過去的侵略行為以及他們過去的獨裁統治，我覺得這是我們必須尊重的地方。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，這件事情事實上算是一個外交事件，我現在覺得比較困擾的地方是，像我前陣子在接待外賓的時候，他們也會問為什麼你們在立法院的黨鞭會說你是美國的間諜，他這樣講好像是把美國當作一個很負面的名詞。今天國民黨主席用這樣詞語的時候，當然我認為在外交上面一定是不當的，但是我們要怎麼去解釋為什麼現在臺灣產生這樣的現象？為什麼國會的最大黨會用這樣的方式來指責？有時候我們可能還是需要對其他國家作完整的說明，當然我們可以說這是對方在政治上攻防，但我覺得就臺灣的歷史脈絡，尤其這五、六年以來，到底為什麼這樣的用詞變多了？我們應該要怎麼去做？因為最早期這些用語都是中國在講的，中國很愛用納粹、蓋世太保等等的用語，究竟這種因素是怎麼進入到臺灣社會的，我覺得其實我們也可以去說明，讓國外的人知道現在臺灣產生的現象。這是一個小小的建議。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：回到今天的題目，今天的題目最主要還是南島語系相關的國家，最近有一個新聞是關於中國對帛琉的滲透手法系統化，當然因為帛琉是我們的邦交國，他想要去爭取、想要去滲透所在多有，我想要問的反而是另外一個問題，次長應該知道我們之前都有在做所謂的中國滲透指數，我在review的過程當中發現，以新加坡、馬來西亞、印尼等國家為例，印尼的排名在我們的指數裡面開始往前了，即使其他國家看起來稍微掉了一點，比如馬來西亞等等，但它的分數其實都還是很高，所以我稍微做了一下盤點。第一個是印尼的部分，比較深顏色的圈圈代表這一次，比較淡顏色的紅色是上一次（2022年），也就是這兩年之內，中國對印尼的影響力，包括軍事以及一般社會對TikTok的使用等等之類，還有在學術方面就變得比較強了。另外我們再看到新加坡，新加坡反而是媒體的影響變強，我覺得這是一個警訊。最後我列了馬來西亞，馬來西亞在軍事、媒體方面都變多了，另外還有科技方面。像他們這種滲透，尤其是在這幾個我們也要爭取的國家，都有在特定的幾個面向增強，針對這一點，外交部有沒有什麼策略？"],["陳次長明祺：當然就整個的媒體，我想重要的是對於FIMI，以及剛才委員所提到對於媒體與各界進行滲透或者是透過影響力作戰來進行其認知的形塑，我們一定要提供另類的論述，我們希望能夠分享我們在臺灣怎麼樣能夠跟外國影響力作戰、對抗的過程，我想很多單位都在做，我們的政府也結合了民間的力量，同時這也是在我們全社會韌性的考量裡面，希望能夠透過公私合作、透過在外交上面交換的關係。同時也跟委員報告，這是一個完整的東西，包括從智庫、包括從學者學術的交流到政府的組織互動，我們希望能夠跟友邦或理念相近的國家能夠在這上面有好的互動，能夠共同對抗中國在這個地方進行的認知作戰。以菲律賓為例，他們非常重視這樣的問題，他們也尋求能夠跟我們經驗分享，菲律賓不在委員剛才提到的範圍裡面，但其實他們也面對非常多的媒體滲透都是有利於大陸的言論形塑。像您所提到的馬來西亞、印尼和新加坡也都面對同樣的問題，我想透過公私協力、透過多層次的互動，我們希望大家能夠共同面對這樣的問題，但最後還是他們執政黨的想法，也就是他們選擇跟誰站得比較近。第二個，我們很願意跟他們進行各個層面的交流，如果他們的執政黨對於這個東西比較不重視，我們希望能夠跟他們的民間社會、學術界多多互動。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，我覺得跟民間的交流真的很重要，像軍事的增強，外交部大概不太能做什麼，但譬如媒體的部分，假如他們的媒體滲透變多，就表示他們在當地接收資訊的時候，可能中國的資訊就變多了。說真的，這就是我前面提到的問題，過去這幾年以來，中國的資訊在臺灣變得非常非常的多，所以像中國會用的納粹等等的用語，已經嚴重滲透到臺灣人對於彼此之間的攻擊，其他國家也可能會面臨一樣的狀況，因為等於中國的媒體變多。我們在做總和外交的時候非常強調，像剛剛提到智庫、學者等等的交流，但是對於一般人民的部分，我好幾次質詢外交部都一再強調，就是因為剛剛我們講的中國加強滲透這幾個媒體，他們的人民會被影響，我們要怎麼反過來能夠去影響他們也會變得非常的重要，不然他們就會偏聽，他們可能就只會聽其中一邊的聲音，我們的聲音會變少，這當然跟我們的預算有很大的關係，但是無論如何要怎麼去加強這一塊，我覺得應該是最重要的。"],["陳次長明祺：有，我們最近在跟外館的溝通互動上面，我也請他們特別注意有關所謂的社群媒體，我們是不是能夠找一些比較客觀、中立的網紅，把我們的資料提供給他們。但是事實上，有的時候在社交媒體上面的空間，畢竟很多的網紅還是有流量的需求，還有可能有一些金錢的考慮。這個方面，因為的確像委員所說的我們很多的預算比較有困難，所以我也鼓勵外館能夠用比較有創意的做法，比如找更多的網紅來報導我們的活動，我們再努力加強。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，我覺得這個內容的本身應該非常重要，因為中國在砸這樣的東西的時候，他的錢會越砸越多，如果我們跟他變成一種金錢上的軍備競賽，我看大概也是贏不了，所以外館在這件事情上面要多多跟當地的NGO合作，因為NGO有動能。"],["陳次長明祺：沒錯。"],["沈委員伯洋：NGO的動能雖然可能只占當地社會不到1%，但是它能夠常常上街頭，它講話可能會對人民有說服力，我覺得這方面的加強甚至可能會比學者來得更為重要。"],["陳次長明祺：是。我們就遵照委員的指導，再加強跟公民社會的互動，我們會請臺灣的公民社會團體、關心這個問題的公民團體，包括增加媒體識讀、提升媒體識讀的公民團體，一起來合作努力。"],["沈委員伯洋：對。這個剛好就連結到外交部有海外青年宣傳的先鋒人才，先鋒人才其實是對「對方」的人才來培育，我覺得這個應該就是可以加強的部分，因為他的出身本身可能就是NGO，他又有動能，如果他能夠進入這樣的專案，就能夠在當地宣傳臺灣現在在國際社會的處境，臺灣目前主張的民主的價值有多重要，以及為什麼我們在對抗中國、遏止這樣的侵略。其實對他們來講，我認為這樣的專案應該可以再往下發展。"],["陳次長明祺：我完全認同，事實上就好像今天的主題以原住民外交為例，我們也找了很多太平洋島國的青年領袖來臺灣一段時間，跟我們的公民社會團體、外交部、政府、民意代表能夠互動，就像剛才委員所說，我們不太可能跟他玩金錢遊戲，畢竟中國整個的經濟量體那麼大，他可以用黨國的力量做很多。我們希望能夠建構跟民間、社會、跟社區領袖，尤其是未來的社區領袖之間緊密的關係。我常常提到，如果他們在做一帶一路這些大的土木工程，那麼我們希望能夠增加他的課責性，有公民素養、accountability是我們能夠著重的重點。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，因為我覺得像今天排這個題目之所以還有一個重要性，以原民來講，說真的因為中國現在對原民也是做出很多的動作，他們嘗試要把原住民重新定義，而且是對臺灣的原住民重新定義，如果我們沒有一個相對應的對策，它應該就不是單純原民會的事情，應該會是跟外交部有關，因為這個定義是要對國際社會說他能夠去定義臺灣的原住民，這個對我們來講是危險的。"],["陳次長明祺：是，這是非常重要的問題。中國那邊跟我們這邊看原住民的事情不一樣，他們是用所謂的少數民族，對我們來說，原住民不是少數民族，原住民是這個地方原來的主人，因為面對後來社會的變遷，所以對於原住民，我們看他們的地位是原來這個地方的主人，跟他們說只是少數並不一樣，所以我們也希望在國際上面能夠結合有同樣想法的國家或者是民間、公民社會的領袖、原住民的領袖、原住民的社群，一起來promote這樣的概念。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝。謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋召委的質詢。","接下來由林楚茵委員上臺質詢。待會兒王定宇委員質詢完畢之後，休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-12","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","馬文君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra 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請跟時間賽跑的主任 來你是德里主任嗎請李主任謝謝委員在加冕主任 你這個"},{"start":26.796,"end":54.369,"text":"雖然籌備那麼久啦 不過你這個委員會非常非常重要是 沒錯對國家社會有很大貢獻因為第一個 台灣第一次有這個那麼重要的人權關懷的這樣一個因為現在 若是說個資洩漏 若是說很嚴重的連國防部 個資都可以洩漏內政部啦 什麼一堆衛福部全部都有 華航你看連賴清德 賴總統的個資也都外漏過郭台銘啊什麼 林志玲啊所以今天那個 我們今天巡打就很重要啦"},{"start":55.089,"end":79.064,"text":"我是看你們在3月份提出來這個3月27號的行政院這個版本做了一部分的修正我發現有些地方我們要進一步來討論好 謝謝威延執教你在12月 去年12月20號有做一個預告吧我發現你後來327提出來的時候把它刪掉了保存相關的紀錄 本來說預告說要保存三年"},{"start":80.851,"end":97.617,"text":"沒有刪掉,我們是會在執法裡面再去訂,相關保存的期間這麼重要,為什麼要未接要拉低呢?因為在預告期間裡面,各界的意見都不同有人要拉長,有人說要拉短"},{"start":98.317,"end":119.384,"text":"那我們會覺得說這部分可能還需要濃縮共識啦所以我們是先在母法裡面先去提到在授權指板的時候期限這個一定會保存是需要的還是要認為要拉長要多久要縮短還要討論主席你要盡快把它開完會把它訂起來現在它的重點是應該有一個法律位階的"},{"start":120.504,"end":138.395,"text":"重視是是是內涵是執法基本上就是它是具體授權所以它是相當有法律的這個效率一個這樣好不好等一下我們做兩個處理一個就是要加速去你說有不一樣意見嘛要趕快去審核啦是不能丟在那裡啊第二個再想一想是不是位階還是要拉回來放在"},{"start":139.4,"end":165.524,"text":"法律比較好 你再想一下啦當然我沒有完全反對執法可是老實講 這個是很重要的一件事情那重要就用法律來定啊就不要到執法去 這跌壞第二個我發現你把它刪掉一個比較這個通用 你看一下中間那個預告板裡面有提到說有前項情形且對當事人權利有重大危害之餘者"},{"start":166.809,"end":171.224,"text":"重大危害之一的 這個很重要啊你為什麼後來也刪掉了 又放到"},{"start":173.739,"end":195.213,"text":"跟委員報告就是在預告時間當然也有給一個意見尤其是人權團裡面是認為說是不是只限於一個說這個門檻好像是說還要去判斷重大危害才能去做這個通知跟通告他覺得這樣子好像已經把那個範圍縮得太小了但是那個門檻要怎麼樣去處理"},{"start":197.955,"end":214.542,"text":"所以我們是覺得說 假設大家覺得這個共識度加這個門檻是不是加太高了 所以我們就暫時好原則上這個門檻的問題先到執法裡面先來先不要現在在母法的時候就因為大家這樣所以要趕快嘛對對對 沒有錯 更剛剛的問題第二個 這個解決方案更重要啦因為你這樣就會造成一個你都用執法來定 那個通報範圍就會變得很空洞 外界就會關心不知道怎麼辦"},{"start":225.146,"end":237.657,"text":"不會空洞那時候就是一個具體要去討論說到目前為止我為什麼問你說你把重大危害這個拿掉或拿到執法那邊去像這個本來就很明確嘛對不對那你今天能不能比較明確跟我講你這個範圍會涵蓋哪一些好"},{"start":240.62,"end":258.734,"text":"我們目前的規劃當事人的通知的這部分原則上我們現在先不放門檻了對當事人通知甚至我們把那個本來現行的規定說要查明後那一直都有人說要查多久啊這個當然要刪掉現前條文這個太晚了所以我們先把查明後這個就先拿掉這個不符合跟實際賽跑沒錯沒錯要刪掉我們就是這個修法是對的啦我現在是說"},{"start":263.305,"end":291.935,"text":"沒有 一個是當然要及時嘛 對不對可是更重要現在人民也在看你這個範圍啦你今天我剛剛講的那個就是個範圍嘛對不對沒錯沒錯對不對 重大危害嘛那你把它拿掉那我現在就要問你你現在初步擬定的有哪些範圍是比較明確的好 假如說我們現在分兩個啦一個是通知主管機關一個是通知當事人那是通知我說範圍你要界定的所謂範圍是怎麼樣現在範圍我們是只有我們現在範圍是只有先放在"},{"start":293.427,"end":311.645,"text":"通報主管機關的這部分哪些事情要通報嘛 對不對說的話有重大危害之一嘛我也說你把它放到執法去除了這個之外還有哪些事你本來要定的事項然後第二個才是你講的要通報到機關或者是非公務機關怎麼通報嘛OK 我請我們同仁先做補充說明"},{"start":312.335,"end":328.931,"text":"是委員因為我們當時在修法的時候其實有參考這個日韓的立法例那日韓他們其實在他們的個資法母法其實對於這個通報的範圍他們也是授權另外去訂他們的命令用命令的方式來去明確化他那個通報的範圍"},{"start":330.032,"end":346.864,"text":"可能就是例如像他可能是說比如說他的這個資料是涉及到可能1000名以上的當事人的個資或是說他是涉及到敏感的資料或是說他可能是因為駭客違法犯法所去竊取的這種資料的這種情況他才會說在列為他們這個命令裡面所要通報的範圍就是像這樣的範圍"},{"start":354.569,"end":377.934,"text":"人家國外可以跟國外的事可以做一部分的參考嘛沒錯影響有多大對不對或者民不民感嘛對不對金額什麼那些可以所以到時候這個範圍會非常的明確就對了沒錯OK那包括剛剛講被刪掉的可能要放回去好不好OK我們會留那你剛剛講到一個時間點問題然後我跟你談一個跟時間很有關的你最近有注意嗎最近那個LINE啊帳號被盜用那個"},{"start":380,"end":397.41,"text":"最近啊 增加了80%所以連賴都在官方上面他都趕快公告了然後社會發展部也去找他趕快去跟時間賽跑結果現在花蓮啊你說賴配到用了真正能夠去要回來主任你知道要多久嗎你知道嗎 要再久嗎你要了解一下 一方面這個跟你的業務有關一方面就牽扯到每個人的利益嘛 對不對"},{"start":408.123,"end":428.465,"text":"那麼多人那個賬號被以前一週只能去要100筆回來了那些社會發展部趕快去催催催催催到現在啊說可能可以到250可是要到7月份才到400我告訴你結果啊被盜用的人太多了如果用400去省你知道嗎要多久你知道嗎多久才能夠回來"},{"start":430.94,"end":455.11,"text":"兩個半月 會太久嗎有點久啦不是有點久 非常非常 太久了嘛 對不對這不行啊 這個你去跟他們談一下好不好是 因為這部分現行院是分管是數位部在主政我們也會再跟他們做協力的一個聯繫要快 要快 我記得大概三天都太久了啦大家知道嗎 我們也去做一個統計 給大家看一下那個統計表"},{"start":456.923,"end":463.192,"text":"你如果你的財啊被或者是那個帳號被倒走之後啊一個小時內27%錢就轉走了一個小時內喔然後幾個小時 大概12個小時之內到"},{"start":470.866,"end":490.023,"text":"幾天內大概都是大概一兩天內一半以上全部都被轉走了結果你現在搞我剛講三天已經太久了結果你現在搞到兩個半月好不好這個把它列為重點的工作即時趕快去處理好不好盡量能夠看能不能在三天內完整把這個LINE要回來這個好另外有一個最近啊"},{"start":491.328,"end":500.215,"text":"我們要求Google跟YT跟LINE還有臉書他們要設法律代表這個已經設了然後開始我們把這個廣告實名制了可是現在發現詐騙"},{"start":503.271,"end":525.222,"text":"越打越炸不是沒有減少還增加了這個也是現在民眾現在最關心的那這部分你跟蘇阿波那邊也進一步再來檢討好不好好 阿卓恩這是一個重要的工作好 一起加油大家希望你有做出很好的成績這個籌備數真的老講是籌備的有點久了趕快正式成立好 我們持續一直講謝謝委員一直講"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":448,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時21分）請跟時間賽跑的李世德主任。"],["主席：請李主任。"],["李主任世德：謝謝委員的嘉勉。"],["張委員啓楷：主任，雖然籌備那麼久，不過你這個委員會非常非常重要。"],["李主任世德：是，沒錯。"],["張委員啓楷：對國家社會有很大貢獻。"],["李主任世德：是第一個、是臺灣第一次有那麼重要的人權關懷……"],["張委員啓楷：老實說，現在個資洩漏情況實在很嚴重，連國防部個資都可以洩漏，還有內政部、衛福部等等全部都有，還有華航等等，連賴清德賴總統的個資也都外漏過，還有郭台銘、林志玲等等，所以我們今天的詢答就很重要了。我看到你們3月27號提出的行政院版本做了一部分的修正，我發現有些地方要進一步來討論。"],["李主任世德：好，謝謝委員指教。"],["張委員啓楷：你在去年12月20號有做一個預告，我發現後來3月27號提出來的時候，就把它刪掉了，保存相關的紀錄，本來預告時說要保存3年，對不對？"],["李主任世德：沒有刪掉，我們會在子法裡面再去訂定相關保存的期間。"],["張委員啓楷：子法？這麼重要，為什麼位階要拉低呢？"],["李主任世德：不是，在預告期間裡面各界的意見都有不同，有人說要拉長，有人說要拉短，我們後來覺得這部分可能還需要濃縮共識，所以我們是先在母法裡面提到，然後再授權子法，期限是一定會把它呈現出來的。"],["張委員啓楷：所以保存是需要的。"],["李主任世德：還是需要。"],["張委員啓楷：現在有人認為要拉長，有人認為要縮短。"],["李主任世德：要多久，這個還要討論。"],["張委員啓楷：主任，你要儘快開完會把它定下來，現在的重點是它應該有一個法律位階的重視，子法基本上就比較……"],["李主任世德：它是具體授權，所以它是相當有法律效力的。"],["張委員啓楷：我們做兩個處理，好不好？第一個是要加速，剛才你說有不一樣的意見，所以要趕快去審核，不能丟在那裡啊！第二個，再想一想是不是位階還是拉回來放在法律比較好呢？你再想一下，當然我沒有完全反對放在子法，但老實講這是很重要的一件事情。"],["李主任世德：了解，沒錯。"],["張委員啓楷：既然重要就用法律來訂定，就不要放到子法去，這是第一個。第二個，我發現你也刪掉一個部分，預告版裡面有提到：有前項情形且對當事人權益有重大危害之虞者。這個很重要啊！為什麼你後來將其刪掉了？然後又放到……"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，在預告期間當然也是給了一些意見，尤其是人權團體認為，是不是只限於一個狀況，就是這個門檻好像還要去判斷是重大危害才能去做通知跟通告，他覺得這樣子好像已經把那個範圍縮得太小，所以那個門檻要怎麼樣去處理一事，我們是覺得，假設大家覺得共識度的部分，加這個門檻是不是加太高了，這樣的話我們就暫時、原則上把這個門檻的問題先放到子法裡面，先不要在母法的時候，就因為大家的……"],["張委員啓楷：所以一樣，要趕快嘛！"],["李主任世德：對，沒有錯，跟剛那個問題一樣。"],["張委員啓楷：你說一直在賽跑，所以不能一直拖，這是一定的。"],["李主任世德：是，母法趕快通過。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個解決方案更重要，因為你這樣就會造成……你都用子法來定，那個通報範圍就變得很空洞，外界就會關心，不知道怎麼辦。"],["李主任世德：不會空洞，那時候就是具體要去討論大家的共識到哪方面。"],["張委員啓楷：到目前為止，我為什麼問說你把重大危害拿掉或拿到子法那邊去，像這個本來就很明確，對不對？"],["李主任世德：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你今天能不能比較明確跟我講，這個範圍會涵蓋哪一些？"],["李主任世德：好，我們目前規劃對當事人通知的部分，原則上我們現在先不放門檻，甚至我們把原來現行的規定說要「查明後」，一直都有人說要查多久？"],["張委員啓楷：這現行條文當然要刪掉。"],["李主任世德：對，所以我們先把這「查明後」這文字拿掉。"],["張委員啓楷：這太晚了，不符合跟時間賽跑。"],["李主任世德：沒錯，我們就是會……"],["張委員啓楷：要刪掉，這個修法是對的啦！我現在是說當然要及時嘛，對不對？"],["李主任世德：是。"],["張委員啓楷：可是更重要的，現在人民也在看你這個範圍，我剛剛講的就是那個範圍，對不對？"],["李主任世德：沒錯。"],["張委員啓楷：重大危害嘛！你把它拿掉，我現在就要問你，你現在初步擬定的有哪些範圍是比較明確的？"],["李主任世德：好，假如我們現在分兩個，一個是通知主管機關，一個是通知當事人……"],["張委員啓楷：那是通知，我說範圍，你要界定所謂的範圍是怎麼樣？"],["李主任世德：現在範圍我們是只有先放在通報主管機關的這部分。"],["張委員啓楷：主任，哪些事情要通報嘛，對不對？剛剛說有重大危害這些部分，我認為把它放到子法去，除了這個之外，還有哪些是你們本來要訂的事項？第二個才是你講的要通報到機關或者是非公務機關是怎麼通報。"],["李主任世德：委員，我請我們同仁先做補充說明。"],["張委員啓楷：請。"],["林組長裕嘉：委員，因為我們當時在修法的時候，其實有參考日韓的立法例，日韓在他們的個資法母法對於通報的範圍，他們也是授權另外去訂命令，用命令的方式來明確化它通報的範圍，比如它的資料是涉及到可能1,000名以上當事人的個資，或是它涉及到敏感的資料，或是它可能是因為駭客違法、犯法所去竊取資料的這種情況，才會列為他們這個命令裡面所要通報的範圍。"],["李主任世德：這是日韓的子法。"],["張委員啓楷：很好，就是像這樣的範圍，可以參考國外在這部分的做法！"],["李主任世德：沒錯。"],["張委員啓楷：影響有多大或者敏不敏感，對不對？金額那些……"],["李主任世德：是，這我們會把它納入來作參考。"],["張委員啓楷：所以到時候這個範圍會非常的明確就對了？"],["李主任世德：沒錯。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，剛剛講的被刪掉的可能要放回去，好不好？"],["李主任世德：OK，我們會列入……"],["張委員啓楷：你剛剛講到時間點的問題，我跟你談一個跟時間很有關的，你最近有沒有注意到LINE帳號被盜用的通報數增加了80%，嚴重到連LINE官方趕快在官網上面公告，然後數位發展部也去找他們，趕快跟時間賽跑，結果現在發現，你說LINE被盜用了，真正能夠去要回來的，主任知道要多久嗎？你要了解一下。"],["李主任世德：我也有朋友的帳號被盜用。"],["張委員啓楷：一方面這個跟你的業務有關，一方面牽扯到每個人的利益，對不對？那麼多人LINE的帳號被盜，以前一週只能去要100筆回來啦！數位發展部趕快去催，催到現在可能可以到250筆，可是要到7月份才到400筆，我跟你說，結果被盜用的人太多了，如果用400筆計算，你知道要多久，你知道嗎？多久才能拿得回來？是兩個半月，是否太久？"],["李主任世德：有點久啦！"],["張委員啓楷：不只有點久，是非常非常久，太久了嘛，對不對？"],["李主任世德：是。"],["張委員啓楷：這不行啊！這個你們去跟他們談一下，好不好？"],["李主任世德：訊息的分管是數位部在主政，我們也會再跟他們作協力的聯繫。"],["張委員啓楷：要快，我記得大概3天都太久了啦！大家知道嗎？我們有去做統計，給大家看一下統計表，如果你的LINE帳號被盜走之後，在1個小時內有27%，錢就被轉走了，一個小時內喔！然後大概12個小時到1、2天內有一半以上的錢全部都被轉走了，我剛講3天已經太久了，結果你現在搞到要兩個半月，請把這個列為重點的工作，要及時趕快去處理，好不好？儘量能夠看能不能完整在3天內把LINE帳號要回來。另外，最近我們要求Google、YouTube、LINE及臉書要設法律代表，他們已經設了，也開始把廣告實名制了，可是現在發現詐騙越打越詐，不只沒有減少還增加了，這個也是現在民眾最關心的，這部分你們跟數發部也進一步再來檢討，好不好？"],["李主任世德：好。"],["張委員啓楷：主任，這是一個重要的工作，一起加油。很希望你能做出很好的成績，這個籌備處老實講真的籌備了有點久，趕快正式成立，謝謝。"],["李主任世德：好，我們會持續一直加快，謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：好，謝謝張啓楷委員。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時30分）","繼續開會（10時35分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","下一位請賴瑞隆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-12","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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那麼就說 30塊這個很可怕沒有 不會 因為前面很長的時間 30塊左右的很多那時候他也度過了"},{"start":547.479,"end":560.897,"text":"那這一次呢大家就說那30塊他非常危險所以我就說第一個30塊以前就很多的時候都是30塊左右那我請教你"},{"start":563.66,"end":585.543,"text":"對於就是台幣在這一波的一個升值你認為是短期的還是這個中長期的一個趨勢呢所以委員我還是要強調的就是說匯率是第一個它比較難捉摸它有升有貶那我們中央銀行也是不希望我們的市場"},{"start":587.445,"end":604.721,"text":"單邊的預期所以呢基本上我們中央銀行也就希望就是說我們的匯率能夠在一個範圍之內能夠穩定那至於就是說它會怎麼樣它未來會怎麼樣說實在的中央銀行也說不准"},{"start":605.402,"end":611.647,"text":"市場我們所以說所以我現在要跟委員報告的就是說以目前這一波的預期心理強烈的預期心理經過了這幾天我總覺得上一次我們就說應該要到此為止這個非理性的預期希望再到此為止不過這幾天我們觀察的結果我們覺得供需是趨於平衡的"},{"start":632.364,"end":637.885,"text":"我們的調節也蠻順暢的所以應該就放心了主席再給我一分鐘我在針對的就是說後續後續就是說我們要因應川普的一個對等關稅那國防會你有沒有就是說在根本上減輕保險業者的一個匯兌的一個風險"},{"start":662.669,"end":676.794,"text":"將他們的資金拉回來台灣那其實我們在推動這個造園投資國家發展的方案的時候這些方案你們有沒有實際做了一些什麼顯然看我們看到了沒有看到了一個很具體的"},{"start":678.414,"end":701.625,"text":"我跟委員報告一下的確我們就是看到其實我們現在受險業者很多都是去買美債那我們希望這些受險業者有多一些投資的工具也就是他可以回到台灣來投資我們的公共建設的計畫所以我們現在其實我們有一個那個促穿的一個平台是產官學就是受險業也在裡面我們現在看到"},{"start":702.265,"end":730.922,"text":"非常明確的就是國花會就是說你這個整體來講的話我們看不到一些具體的非常具體的一個案例如果我們用一個就是之前納曼台三線它其實很具體就是這七十億裡頭它就把它很明確的就是說用台三線的這個客家主體來做一個花展的話那有沒有機會就是往南部走那南部走的時候我們的中小型移感的一個"},{"start":731.482,"end":753.952,"text":"升級還是說我們中小型水庫的一個硬體強化這個都是會就是針對了就是說近期的那個氣候變遷他所帶來的這一這些就是不管是地震還是土石流這些問題都會造成我們非常大的一個需要所以在這裡我要要求央行國會跟軍管會合作評估是不是"},{"start":754.613,"end":769.015,"text":"可能經濟的一個因應經濟的一個情勢跟作為在兩週內以書面的一個回復那就說央行如果強化公開的外匯相關的一個資訊台幣升值的一個趨勢是短期還是中長期那"},{"start":769.696,"end":790.223,"text":"我們海外的一個投資是不是因為這樣產生大額的一個賄損但你如何因應是不是禁止上市櫃保險業者就是說在花旱鼓勵還是如何積極引導保險業者的一個基金回到台灣投入遲遲都沒有發展的造源投資國家發展的一個方案"},{"start":790.763,"end":799.522,"text":"那在對於台灣地方就是觀光、社宅、交通等等的一個需求一直都是非常高的請中央銀行積極的嚴厲相關的一個規劃好 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":423,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時11分）謝謝主席。請央行總裁、財政部次長還有國發會副主委。"],["主席：請楊總裁、財政部阮次長、國發會高副主委。"],["楊總裁金龍：賴委員早。"],["賴委員惠員：三位早安。首先我請教一下財政部阮次長，我們2000年開始設立國安基金，資本額是5,000億，日前第9次進場護盤，我們也知道這是一個非常穩定的力量，那麼是不是有機會……跟你討教一下，在這5,000億要提高到1兆以前，我們有提出這樣子的一個計畫，現在進度怎麼樣？"],["阮次長清華：目前我們股市的市值比國安基金剛成立的時候增加大概9倍，外資從本來的百分之十幾變成百分之四十幾，所以的確跟過去成立的時候不一樣，但是我們那個基金一直維持在5,000億，真正可以用的只有2,000億，所以操作上真的是有壓力。"],["賴委員惠員：有沒有打算提升？"],["阮次長清華：當然，如果大家有共識，可以提升的話，那最好，特別是關於貸款那部分……"],["賴委員惠員：事實上我們有提出這樣子的計畫案，我要知道現在的進度到哪裡。"],["阮次長清華：目前還在溝通的階段。"],["賴委員惠員：還在溝通的階段？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["賴委員惠員：如果有機會把它提升到1兆的話，以目前的金融狀況，就是有大筆資金的移動，有沒有可能不管是在股市還是透過不同的方式來穩定國內的金融秩序呢？"],["阮次長清華：基本上我們是管股市，就是要穩定股市，當然可能會涉及外資的進出，有關資金進出的部分是央行的權責，我們尊重。"],["賴委員惠員：既然是央行的權責，次長請回。謝謝。","總裁，大家還是說國內的金融秩序要由央行來統籌，新臺幣在4月28日和5月5日這兩週內大幅升值，甚至5月2日當日的升值幅度還最高！其實這也造成國內整個金融市場的大地震，在這個大地震裡頭，我們把這四個因素放進來，不管是外資大量流入、出口商加速結匯、市場預期心理或央行當天沒有明顯的干預動作，請問總裁認為最大的原因是什麼？這四個因素裡頭，總裁你怎麼看這四個元素？你認為這四個因素裡頭，最大的原因是什麼？是央行沒有進去？"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛已經有說明了，事實上是因為預期心理，所以……"],["賴委員惠員：預期心理？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，預期心理，所以出口商拋匯非常的……它的供給大幅增加，也剛好因為美國的股市慢慢在恢復，所以外資也進來我們臺灣。"],["賴委員惠員：總裁，為什麼大家會這麼害怕呢？因為大家會有這樣的預期心理，就是我們曾經嚇到。1985年到1992年，從1美元換40塊臺幣到1美元換25塊臺幣，其實在這一波裡頭，震盪也非常大。1987年到1990年那時候都說「臺灣錢淹腳目」，可是短短的8個月，在1990年10月股市就跌到了2,485點，其實很多老一輩的臺灣人最後玩股票賠到傾家蕩產，所以為什麼大家會這麼害怕？因為大家就是有一個預期的心理，我跟你講，如果經濟不是那麼可怕的話，如果我們從政治的角度來看，我請教你，美國有沒有對我們臺灣施壓？"],["楊總裁金龍：我剛剛就已經有澄清，還有一個……"],["賴委員惠員：所以你認為沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，真的，我們5月1號、5月2號、5月5號做的……"],["賴委員惠員：那是媒體害你？媒體把南韓新聞的大標跟你的話做一個很大的……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，所以我也看到媒體說Bank of Korea的governor打我一巴掌，確實這個是有點形容過度。"],["賴委員惠員：形容過度？其實沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，應該是沒有啦，沒有這回事，所以我總是覺得要節制，有些時候在報導上要節制。"],["賴委員惠員：報導上要節制，這個是你跟媒體喊話啦！再來，我們談認知作戰的部分，其實我覺得為什麼媒體會誤會你……我們財委會從去年下半年就一直在關注有關川普上任後的對等關稅議題，像本席也反覆地跟行政院、央行、財政部、金管會討論、建議了，在質詢裡頭也一直在告訴你們，央行的經濟分析其實我們是很肯定的，因為你們每一次的報告是做得最詳細的。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員惠員：可是你們在執行面上相形是弱了一點。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，這個我們來改進。"],["賴委員惠員：是不是有機會不要蓋牌？你不要蓋牌的話，是不是會讓……你蓋牌會讓大家更緊張，如果你透過一個更透明的操作方式，是不是大家的預期心理就可以降低一點？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們來改進，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：會改進喔？"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員的指教。"],["賴委員惠員：我想其實在這麼震盪的一個大環境裡頭，看得準的沒有幾個，可是我相信你應該是看得準的其中一個。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：其實臺灣過去二十多年來，對於外債持有的規模一直跳升，甚至海外的資產累計高達1.7兆美元，這1.7兆美元以保險業者占多數，保險業者面臨到這麼大的困難的時候，你怎麼去看待？你有什麼好的因應方式呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上，保險業的投資情況，雖然中央銀行也有一些掌握，但主要還是在金管會。不過因為媒體也是有在做這樣的報導，所以我們也有跟金管會做一些溝通。我第一個要說的是，其實我剛剛也講過了，到目前為止，新臺幣的匯率是在30塊左右，事實上這也不是第一次，如果這個是第一次的話，那麼30塊這個很可怕？沒有，不會，因為前面一段很長的時間是30塊左右的情況很多，那時候也度過啦！是不是？"],["賴委員惠員：是。"],["楊總裁金龍：這一次大家又說30塊非常危險！所以我就說，第一個，以前很多時候都是30塊左右。第二個……"],["賴委員惠員：好，總裁，我請教你，對於臺幣在這一波的升值，你認為是短期的，還是中長期的趨勢？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，我還是要強調，第一個，匯率比較難捉摸。"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：它有升有貶，中央銀行也不希望我們的市場單邊預期，基本上中央銀行也希望我們的匯率在一個範圍之內能夠穩定。至於它未來會怎麼樣，說實在的，中央銀行也說不準。市場我們只會說……"],["賴委員惠員：那你認為它是短期的機率會比較高，還是中長期的？"],["楊總裁金龍：我現在要跟委員報告的就是，以目前這一波強烈的預期心理，經過了這幾天，我總覺得……上一次我們就說應該要到此為止了，希望這個非理性的預期到此為止，不過就這幾天我們觀察的結果，我們覺得供需是趨於平衡的，我們的調節……"],["賴委員惠員：所以你認為這個空襲是短期的，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的調節也滿順暢的，所以也就應該可以放心了。"],["賴委員惠員：好，是短期的，謝謝總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：主席，再給我1分鐘，我要再講一下後續我們因應川普對等關稅的部分。國發會有沒有在根本上減輕保險業者匯兌的風險？重點就是將他們的資金拉回來臺灣，我們在推動兆元投資國家發展方案的時候，這些方案你們有沒有實際做了些什麼，顯然我們沒有看到一個很具體的目標。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我跟委員報告一下，的確，我們就是看到，現在壽險業者很多都是去買美債，我們希望這些壽險業者多一些投資工具，也就是說，它可以回到臺灣來投資我們的公共建設計畫，所以我們現在其實有一個促參平臺，是產官學的，壽險業也在裡面。"],["賴委員惠員：我們現在看到非常明確的就是，整體來講，我們看不到國發會有非常具體的案例，像之前「浪漫臺三線」其實很具體，就是這70億裡頭，它就很明確的用臺三線的客家主體來做發展。有沒有機會往南部走？往南部走的時候，我們中小型漁港的升級，還有中小型水庫硬體的強化，這個針對的就是近期氣候變遷所帶來的衝擊，不管是地震還是土石流，這些問題都會造成我們有非常大的需求。","所以在這裡我要求央行跟國發會、金管會合作，評估可能的經濟情勢跟因應作為，並在兩週內以書面回復。第一個，央行如何強化公開外匯的相關決策資訊？臺幣升值的趨勢是短期還是中長期？我國海外的投資是不是因為這樣產生大額匯損，應如何因應？是不是禁止上市櫃保險業者發放股利？還是如何積極引導保險業者的基金回到臺灣，投入遲遲都沒有發展的兆元投資國家發展方案？臺灣的地方對於觀光、社宅、交通等等需求，一直都是非常高的，請中央銀行積極研擬相關的規畫。好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝賴委員的質詢。","下一位請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","王世堅","林思銘","涂權吉","王鴻薇","謝龍介","陳玉珍","陳冠廷","林楚茵","翁曉玲"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、國家發展委員會\n劉主任委員鏡清、勞動部洪部長申翰、銓敘部施部長能傑就「我國如果要設立國家主權基金，中\n央銀行與政府相關基金（如四大基金等）所扮演的角色為何？」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00006"}}},{"id":"161056","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161056","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1c46ab487e18b57e9bf088656e97d34035f5e885147c9c9bc3f3c00194d6c03235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:11:34 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剛剛那些人你都認識啦"},{"start":140.053,"end":169.057,"text":"這幾位有些還在立法院,這些人有跟你抗議過嗎?郭委員你說吃一輩子都不會吃屎的這個說法當初民進黨的檢驗標準是零檢出那影片裡面就有兩位好像馬上要競爭台南市長的委員當時的賴清德市長以捍衛食安的決心以前他捍衛食安的決心是非常非常堅定的"},{"start":170.424,"end":194.516,"text":"那現在想要當賴清德接班的這兩個遊客有沒有跟你表示跟委員這邊做報告剛才那個是在美牛的時代美牛時代世界Codex還沒有訂出標準所以我覺得當時還沒有那麼清楚的情況下有這樣子的一個論述我都保有尊重98年我們12月9號賴清德當時的立委要求國民黨"},{"start":195.476,"end":215.166,"text":"主動順應民意禁止毒牛進口在當天民進黨團為了美牛修法也包圍了我們立法院的主席台101年2月9號賴清德市長說執政者不能棄守國人健康那101年2月16賴清德市長就說他在台南市率先執行"},{"start":217.207,"end":231.266,"text":"禁用瘦肉精拒吃毒豬牛的政策他說即使是美國也要尊重我們台灣的國情勒印要用萊克多巴胺就是不尊重台灣的老百姓你還記得他講的這些話嗎"},{"start":233.452,"end":257.323,"text":"報告委員 我想當時的時空背景世界還沒有標準標準都一樣了嘛標準那時候還沒有定Codex還沒有定標準所以在那樣時空背景如果配合我的課程的課去上完之後對於到現在已經經過十幾年會有新的一個體會跟體驗我們耐心的總統當時還嗆我們的總統說他說如果為了要當總統然後犧牲人民的權益那不如不要當啊"},{"start":258.393,"end":284.824,"text":"對不對那我們現在總統有告訴你驗出這個這個來這個來劑他接受嗎我想他有告訴你嗎在萊克多巴胺被開放了一個是在前馬英九前總統的牛肉的開放目前有兩千四百九十三批也有驗到微量其中六批有超標我們把它退運了銷毀豬肉的部分呢從驗了之後有三批那是在一百一十年蔡總統的時候開放蔡總統也講過政府做不來就下台嘛"},{"start":288.394,"end":316.208,"text":"對他的標準你認為你要不要下台對於現在因為我們國家法令上面已經訂定說萊克多巴胺可以在豬肉牛肉裡面有參與的標準有這個標準如果標準超標的我們會退役如果沒有消費的話就就應該在記者上的回應我想請問一下就我們對食安法的認知這食安法立法的精神他是保護消費者還是廠商還是未來拿來當談判的籌碼"},{"start":318.329,"end":346.008,"text":"郭委員是以全民的 國家至上全民優先的 食品安全的 食安優先的想法那人民現在會恐慌 你知道嗎剛剛都很多人在講這件事情他的原因就是不確定性跟這個未知性他知道我們應該讓他 剛剛我們玉敏委員有講到我們要讓人民他有選擇的權利所以我認為你們說這個一直到現在都不願意公佈流向這個原因是什麼"},{"start":347.554,"end":364.241,"text":"報告委員因為我們現在面對的是檢驗進來是合格的廠商規定是經過我們大院以及行政部門裡面訂定的他們沒有違規的情形之下他現在驗出來沒有違規嗎他沒有違規他是檢出違規是0.01ppm以上你在記者會上說如果都要公佈就公佈不完現在驗出只有3p不是嗎"},{"start":375.656,"end":401.432,"text":"對 因為還有牛的牛會有兩千多匹我想說對於合格的廠商我們豬肉可以在我們那個那個豬肉魚錶板上看到嘛那牛要在哪裡看對 因為牛沒有牛肉魚錶板因為當初的背景上面沒有特別其實如果沒有豬肉魚錶板你們網站上說牛肉跟那個牛雜碎驗出兩千四百九十三匹退了六匹嘛 對不對六匹 銷毀跟退回嘛"},{"start":404.033,"end":405.882,"text":"那這個部分我們民眾要去哪裡看啊"},{"start":407.56,"end":436.018,"text":"這個部分其實是在我們的行政上面的因為沒有顯示出來它違規的其實我們就是審查你們四五月這個抽批這個率是多少你說我們現在抽批要邊境因為我們是用人工智慧的所謂人工智慧導入的實案預測抽檢我們希望是精準檢驗所以2%到10%原則上到底是幾%對它符合在標準的範圍我們抽批大概是在10%以下"},{"start":437.324,"end":458.303,"text":"對 那我記得剛剛也講到去年蘇丹紅事件我們本來也是2到10後來也改到百分之百嘛對 跟我有報告那個是怎麼後來怎麼調的它是因為它是違規的蘇丹紅是不得檢出是違規的我們就打XX了如果它是合規的我們其實是打圈就放心我們耐心的總統標準是零檢出"},{"start":459.424,"end":480.602,"text":"那個在石東的背景底下,對於萊克多灣還沒有定所以經過這麼多年,我會請有相應的代表同事來交流你的專業,我們當然是尊重,可是我們一直認為說,你應該要把這個產地或者是它裡面的一些規範,就是它的產地的一些數字,要把它標示清楚"},{"start":483.165,"end":492.413,"text":"我們現在針對所有的豬肉不管國內國外我們都一體適用都有標示的在這邊跟委員做進一步的說明"},{"start":493.328,"end":521.646,"text":"有標示產地嗎?原料的原產地一體試用國內國外的其實都有都有標示的好那我在想啦因為現在查出這樣的一個問題我希望我們原來的機制就是說當我們的抽檢率它突然抽到非常多的時候我們的那些這個抽檢率就要繼續提高因為你剛剛講的你只抽10%那另外90%你沒抽嘛"},{"start":522.507,"end":536.441,"text":"報告委員因為這一次的總共3批其實在澳洲是同一個製造廠所以其實是一個所以我們雖然說他合格我們眼睛有偷偷增大增量那你剛剛有沒有打算去看看像這樣驗出來的這個產地那我們以後還會讓他進來嗎"},{"start":542.827,"end":569.662,"text":"因為進口澳洲的廠商要進口選擇其實是來自於進口貿易商進口貿易商我們其實非常尊重他們我們設的標準之後按照這標準來做管理如果他們送來的東西都是常常出現問題的時候是不是我們應該剛剛我們幾個委員有講到要去茶廠看一下但關於這個茶廠部分剛才特別提到那是在農委會的時代"},{"start":571.736,"end":593.291,"text":"豬肉 澳洲豬肉就已經是進來了那基於性耐保護原則我們沒有再進一步的查查而且對豬肉廠在澳洲呢它是牛肉 豬肉 羊肉 鹿肉是一起的那個部分其實我們去查過查所以對於豬的部分其實查是同樣的我們現在如果有驗出來的我們有驗出來的話我們可不可以標示嗎"},{"start":594.873,"end":621.013,"text":"呃 我們剛才提到的其實所有的你可以標示嗎所有的我們都當作是一體適用的產地的都會做標示不是 我是說有驗出這個萊克多萊基的這個萊克多瓦安的這個肉品我想喔 以我我是行政的協助國安保安使安的過程當中如果我設了一個標準它是合格的不管啦 然後我把標示出來你只要驗出來它有法源的依據那你就標示進去嘛"},{"start":621.773,"end":649.661,"text":"我們國人要不要吃他的權利啊我想跟委員報告一下因為如果在這個前提之下那我只要驗到草莓有什麼農藥的我就要標示草莓農藥可是它是合格的那其實國人看到更害怕更瘋狂怎麼會有農藥殘餘其實它會有殘餘其實是我們可以理解但是在我們的食品安全風險分析向下想盡辦法訂出一個殘留的標準這個殘留標準按照定義"},{"start":650.701,"end":663.018,"text":"劑量會決定毒性因為這個劑量因為現在大家聽到這個萊劑吼有含驗萊劑的肉品大家都恐慌啦吼那所以你們是要告訴大家這個萊劑是可以吃的我先委員報告一下"},{"start":667.216,"end":692.228,"text":"大家的恐慌很大一部分是對我在食品安全風險分析這種安全性上面的支持我希望以我的多年來的專業能夠把我的安全轉換成對民眾的安心我一定是以食安優先以人民的優先國家至上的原則來去希望我們站在維護國人這個食安的這個立場我希望我們大家來可以討論我覺得這個部分應該是可以討論希望大家來"},{"start":696.73,"end":700.832,"text":"研擬一套辦法讓我們的國人能夠安心那我再請部長一下部長請問一下關於外國學歷認證修法的問題你們認為變嚴格但是一屆一些團體認為你們是在放水那我覺得是不是我們來安排一場跟衛福部跟團體我們直接坐下來溝通你贊成嗎沒有問題可以啦我上任以來最"},{"start":725.983,"end":741.07,"text":"溝通最長的時間就是跟那個團體我想EOS家的媒體在旁邊直接播給全國播到最後媒體都一直撤了因為已經太累了這樣子那如果我們安排的話至少有五部派代表好不好"},{"start":742.07,"end":755.001,"text":"我們非常樂意來互動而且已經解釋過很多次了如果還有擔心我們不能讓這些年輕的醫師擔心而且會有誤傳這樣也不好啦我們非常願意謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":379,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時11分）謝謝主席，我們請姜署長。"],["主席：請署長，安心署長。"],["邱委員鎮軍：很驕傲的署長，剛剛講很驕傲嘛，署長好。"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得今天食藥署該檢討的不是只有澳洲豬腳驗出萊克多巴胺這件事情，我們應該是要檢討整個食安把關的原則，你身為食品安全守門人，但是在萊豬叩關成功的時候，你在記者會講的話讓人很錯愕，因為你的回應一直在穿越時空、在打民進黨的臉，我們先看一下影片。","（播放影片）"],["邱委員鎮軍：署長，剛剛那些人你都認識啦，這幾位有些還在立法院，這些人有跟你抗議過嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你說吃一輩子都不會吃死的這個說法，當初民進黨的檢驗標準是零檢出，影片裡面就有兩位好像馬上要競爭臺南市長的委員，當時的賴清德市長捍衛食安的決心是非常非常堅定的，現在想要當賴清德接班的這兩個人有沒有跟你表示？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員做報告，剛才那個是在美牛的時代，那時候CODEX還沒有訂出標準，所以我覺得當時還沒有那麼清楚的情況下，有這樣子的一個論述，我都尊重。"],["邱委員鎮軍：98年12月9號，當時的賴清德立委要求國民黨主動順應民意，禁止毒牛進口，當天民進黨黨團為了美牛修法也包圍我們立法院的主席臺；101年2月9號，賴清德市長說，執政者不能棄守國人健康；101年2月16日，賴清德市長又說，他在臺南市率先執行禁用瘦肉精、拒吃毒豬牛的政策，他說即使是美國也要尊重我們臺灣的國情，如果硬要用萊克多巴胺就是不尊重臺灣的老百姓。你還記得他講的這些話嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，我想當時的時空背景，世界還沒有標準……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那個標準都一樣的嘛。"],["姜署長至剛：那時候CODEX還沒有訂標準，所以在那樣的時空背景，如果配合我的課程，上完之後對於到現在已經經過十幾年，會有一個新的體會跟體驗。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們賴清德總統當時還嗆我們的總統說，如果為了要當總統，然後犧牲人民的權益，那不如不要當，對不對？我們現在總統有告訴你，驗出萊劑他接受嗎？他有告訴你嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我想萊克多巴胺被開放，一個是在馬英九前總統的牛肉開放，目前有2,493批有驗到微量，其中有6批有超標，我們把它退運、銷毀，而豬肉的部分，從驗了之後有3批，那是在110年，蔡總統的時候……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那個我知道，蔡總統也講過，政府做不來就下臺，以他的標準，你認為你要不要下臺？"],["姜署長至剛：現在因為我們國家的法令上面已經訂定萊克多巴胺在豬肉、牛肉裡面的殘留標準，有這個標準，如果是超標的，我們會退運，如果沒有銷毀的話，那就不行。"],["邱委員鎮軍：署長，你在記者上的回應，我想請問一下，就我們對食安法的認知，食安法的立法精神是保護消費者還是廠商？還是未來拿來當談判的籌碼？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，是以國家至上、全民優先的食品安全的食安優先。"],["邱委員鎮軍：很好。人民現在會恐慌，你知道嗎？剛剛很多人在講這件事情，它的原因就是不確定性跟未知性。剛剛育敏委員有講到，我們要讓人民有選擇的權利，那你們一直到現在都不願意公布流向的原因是什麼？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，因為我們現在面對的是檢驗進來的是合格的廠商，規定是經過我們大院以及行政部門裡面訂定的，在他們沒有違規的情形之下……"],["邱委員鎮軍：他現在被驗出來，沒有違規嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：他沒有違規，是檢出。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，檢出來了。"],["姜署長至剛：違規是0.01ppm以上，他是0.001。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你在記者會上說，如果都要公布就公布不完。"],["姜署長至剛：對，因為都是合格的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在驗出只有3批，不是嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：對，因為還有牛的部分，牛的部分有兩千多批，我想說對於合格的廠商，適當的尊重他們。"],["邱委員鎮軍：豬肉的部分可以在我們的豬肉儀表板上看到，那牛要在哪裡看？"],["姜署長至剛：牛的部分沒有牛肉儀表板，因為當初的背景上面沒有這個，其實如果沒有豬肉儀表板……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們的網站上說牛肉跟牛雜碎驗出2,493批，退了6批，對不對？6批是銷毀跟退回嘛。"],["姜署長至剛：是的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個部分我們民眾要去哪裡看？"],["姜署長至剛：這個部分其實是在我們行政上面的，因為沒有顯示出他是違規的，其實我們就是存查。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們四、五月的抽批、抽檢率是多少？"],["姜署長至剛：我們現在抽批要由邊境，因為我們是用人工智慧，所謂的人工智慧導入的食安預測抽檢，我們希望是精準檢驗。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以是2%到10%嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：原則上……"],["邱委員鎮軍：到底是幾趴？"],["姜署長至剛：他符合在標準的範圍，我們抽趴大概是在10%以下。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我記得剛剛也講有到，去年的蘇丹紅事件，我們本來也是2%到10%，後來也改到百分之百嘛，那後來是怎麼調的？"],["姜署長至剛：對，跟委員報告，因為他是違規的，蘇丹紅是不得檢出，是違規的，我們就打叉叉了，如果他是合規的，我們其實是打圈，那就會放行。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們賴清德總統的標準是零檢出欸！"],["姜署長至剛：在那個時空背景底下，對萊克多巴胺還沒有訂出標準，所以經過這麼多年，有機會的話可以跟賴總統再做交流。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你的專業我們當然是尊重，可是我們一直認為你應該把產地或者是裡面的一些規範，就是它的產地的一些數字要把它標示清楚，這個我們為什麼不能做？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，我們現在針對所有的豬肉，不管國內、國外，我們都一體適用，都有標示，在這邊跟委員做進一步的說明。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有標示產地嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：原料的原產地一體適用，國內、國外的其實都有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：都有標示？"],["姜署長至剛：對，都有標示。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我在想，因為現在查出這樣一個問題，我希望我們原來的機制，就是關於我們的抽檢率，當他突然被抽檢到非常多的時候，我們的抽檢率就要繼續提高，因為你剛剛講的，你只抽10%，另外90%你沒抽，對不對？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，因為這次總共有3批，其實在澳洲是同一個製造廠，所以其實是1個，我們雖然說他合格，但我們的眼睛有偷偷睜大、睜亮盯了一下。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你有沒有打算去看？像這樣驗出來的產地，我們以後還會讓他進來嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：因為廠商若要進口澳洲的，選擇權其實是來自於進口貿易商，我們其實非常非常尊重進口貿易商，我們設了標準之後，按照這個標準來做管理，他們要進口的，我們都要尊重他們。"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果他們送來的東西都是常常出現問題的時候，剛剛我們幾個委員也有講到要去查廠、看一下。"],["姜署長至剛：關於查廠部分，剛才特別提到，那是在農委會的時代，澳洲豬肉已經進來了，基於信賴保護原則，我們沒有再進一步查廠，而且對於豬肉的查廠，在澳洲是牛肉、豬肉、羊肉、鹿肉一起的，那個部分其實我們去查過廠，所以對於豬的部分……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那我請問署長，現在如果有驗出來，我們可以標示嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我們剛才提到的，其實所有的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：可以標示嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：所有的我們都是一體適用，產地的都會標示……"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，我是說有驗出萊克多巴胺的肉品。"],["姜署長至剛：行政院協助國人在食安把關的過程當中，如果設了一個標準，它是合格的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：不管啦！只要驗出來它有……"],["姜署長至剛：然後我把它標示出來，我們沒有法源依據。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你就標示出來，國人要不要吃，是他的權利啊！"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，如果在這個前提之下，只要驗到草莓有什麼農藥，我就要標示草莓農藥，可是它是合格的，其實會讓國人看到更害怕、更瘋狂，質疑怎麼會有農藥殘餘呢？其實會有殘餘我們是可以理解的，但是在食品安全風險分析項下，我們想盡辦法訂出一個殘留標準，這個殘留標準按照定義，劑量會決定毒性，因為這個劑量在我們評估下是在安全的範圍。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，因為現在大家聽到有含萊劑的肉品，都覺得很恐慌，所以你是要告訴大家萊劑是可以吃的？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，大家的恐慌，很大一部分是對我們在食品安全風險分析這種安全性上面的支持，我希望以我多年來的專業，能夠把我的安全轉換成民眾的安心，我一定是以食安優先、以人民優先，以國家至上的原則來扮演這樣的角色。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦！站在維護國人食安的立場，希望大家可以來討論，我覺得這個部分應該是可以討論的，希望大家研擬出一套辦法，讓我們的國人能夠安心。","我再請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：請問部長，關於外國學歷認證修法的問題，你們認為變嚴格，但是醫界一些團體認為你們是在放水，我建議是不是安排一場衛福部跟團體的會議，大家直接坐下來溝通？您贊成嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：可以啦！好，那我們再……"],["邱部長泰源：我上任以來，溝通最長的時間就是跟那個團體，當時有一、二十家媒體在旁邊直接錄播到全國，播到最後媒體都陸續撤了，因為已經太累了……"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，那我們安排好，再請衛福部派代表，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題，沒問題，我們非常樂意來互動，而且已經解釋過很多次了，如果還有擔心，我們不能讓這些年輕的醫師擔心，而且會誤傳，這樣也不好，所以我們非常願意，謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員，謝謝部長。","接續請林淑芬委員質詢，感冒了，不要說太久。"]],"agen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剛剛提到這樣子因為我們在國內我們怎麼樣去譴責或者我們怎麼樣去訴求其實都沒有用因為事實上它不斷的在發生就像之前南非我們本來也是設代表處後來把它降成經濟文化辦事處這個也是因為他們大概也是以2758號決議這個來做決定的另外有很多我們參與國際組織的障礙"},{"start":232.316,"end":239.2,"text":"大概也都是因為這樣包括國際刑警組織過去我們也曾經以中華民國的名義其實曾經是正式會員可是後來被排除了那還有國際民航組織還有世界衛生組織等等我們至少在WHA其實我們也曾經還是觀察員可是現在什麼都不是所以在我們就這些發生的事情"},{"start":258.511,"end":283.648,"text":"顯然大家沒有辦法去同時去認可2758號決議的這個部分所以就這個發生的這些我只是舉例那其他還有更多因為我們面對國際非常多的國家大概都是以這個他們自己國家的解釋我們沒有辦法去改變那對我們來說就會線索越來越大影響越來越深而且我們可能也會受到更多的一些傷害"},{"start":285.189,"end":293.131,"text":"那在4月底的時候美國在聯合國安理會會議中他就2758號決議美中在對此有激烈的辯論代表這個議題其實在安理會至少被實質討論而不是只有在每年的聯合國大會裡面靠友邦或者友好國家的發言支持而已這可能也是開啟我們能否參與國際組織實質的第一步這是其中一個另外"},{"start":314.417,"end":335.896,"text":"在去年5月巴勒斯坦在聯合國會議會員的聯合國會員議題上面也被聯合國大會以壓倒性的多數通過決議雖然最後認定他符合聯合國憲章應該是要被接納雖然最後這個案子被安理會否決可是至少巴勒斯坦"},{"start":337.297,"end":345.243,"text":"獲得了國際上普遍的一個支持跟認定這是他們努力的結果我們很希望如果我們可以得到國際的認可這個還有很多要努力的方向就我們剛剛提到的一個就美國在安理會的這個部分他們做了實質的討論那我們不要每年都是只計算多少友邦幫我們發言然後我們不斷的在原地踏步另外還有一個就是"},{"start":365.958,"end":369.381,"text":"日前美國眾議院他通過台灣國際團結法案那在這一個部分他強調2758號決議沒有處理台灣或台灣人民在聯合國或相關組織的代表權問題他們現在主張是這樣可是這個在"},{"start":385.414,"end":404.602,"text":"過去2023年吧他們也曾經通過對不對後來他沒有成為正式的法案是為什麼因為既然美國這麼支持我們眾議院也通過了可是他也沒有成為正式的一個可以執行的法案那時候是為什麼那你現在又提出來他不會面對同樣的問題嗎那我們請北美斯來回答一下"},{"start":411.16,"end":429.247,"text":"美國國會的立法 它一個法案必須要是從參院跟兩院都要通過 要都有生效2023年你講的那個 它應該是一個決議案啦決議案基本上是沒有法律拘束力的所以其實那個並不是說有沒有生效的問題"},{"start":430.427,"end":433.508,"text":"因為就是他提出來他們也希望也是一樣通過嘛那就跟現在一樣那當然還需要參議院然後最後還要總統他支持通過他可能才可以執行可是如果我們一直重複在這些動作剛剛我們講的其實2758號對我們所有的線索越來越嚴重"},{"start":449.955,"end":475.575,"text":"包括我們在民航組織裡面其實我們現在很多航空公司已經把我們的名稱全部都改掉了越來越矮化可是我們也拿他們一點辦法都沒有包括過去其實甚至在川普總統第一任的時候他對於中方這樣的要求其實他是有強力去抗衡的可是現在還是全部都被改掉了那我們有什麼樣因應的做法"},{"start":476.115,"end":496.637,"text":"因為他都改成中國台北我們還是一樣結合理念也跟委員報告像剛才您所說的這個眾院通過了一個non-binding的這個非具有強制力的這樣的一個決議文之後我們也看到了那個雖然他沒有變成一個法案他本來就是設計是這個樣子但重點是在於是說我們看到在聯合國"},{"start":497.578,"end":520.772,"text":"那個上面的時候美國的代表美國的這個政治參事就像您這上面所說的這個吳廷他也很正式的來在上面表達美國的一個立場然後在美國的行政單位也多次的表達他們對2758他們的詮釋他們的立場其實是跟眾院參院所提出來的決議文是接近的所以這是我們的努力的那還有更多的國家"},{"start":521.172,"end":522.613,"text":"因為時間的關係我覺得不用用文字上的敘述我們要的是實質的結果就像我們為什麼特別提巴勒斯坦來做一個對照其實主要就是這樣因為你今天如果已經有"},{"start":537.679,"end":563.407,"text":"這樣子的一個方向那可以做到什麼樣的程度因為你要受到國際普遍的認同我們現在是越來越限縮它不像是有被更認可的一個現象發生所以這是我們現在困境這也是外交部要努力的部分不然我們編了那麼多的預算我想在重要的這個部分其實它是沒有被山東預算這個部分如果要把它做到更好這個才是一個好的成績好不好"},{"start":565.347,"end":589.36,"text":"謝謝委員的鼓勵這也是我們外交部的後續的進度剛好我們講的蘇瑪麗蘭這個部分可能提供一些書面比如說現在應該要怎麼做那會有什麼樣的一個因應的措施我們現在在那裡的人員包括技術團還有我們的住在的一些相關的人員他們的處置方式提供書面資料謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":387,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時12分）謝謝主席，麻煩請次長。沒關係，慢慢喝。"],["陳次長明祺：委員好。"],["馬委員文君：次長好。次長，今天我們特別在外交部這個議題上面，只是剛剛也有委員關切到包括第2758號決議的部分。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["馬委員文君：其實它對我們來說影響非常大，我們看到索馬利亞民航局在4月底通告，根據聯合國大會第2758號決議，堅持一個中國的原則，通知所有航空公司的營運商，還有所有由臺灣或其附屬機構所簽發的護照跟相關的旅行證件，都不得再用於進出及過境索馬利亞聯邦。也就是說，它禁止持臺灣護照入境或過境，外交部對此事其實已經有提出強烈譴責。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["馬委員文君：而且也要求立即撤銷禁令，也呼籲國人暫勿前往索馬利亞跟索馬利蘭，對不對？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["馬委員文君：就我們跟索馬利蘭在2020年7月已經有互設代表處。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["馬委員文君：其實在這過程當中，我們也捐助了一些糧食，還有其他的一些資源……"],["陳次長明祺：我們有協助興建臺灣大道。"],["馬委員文君：現在發生這樣的事情，我們目前要怎麼因應？除了我們去抗議或者要求它撤銷禁令，它如果不願意呢？我們目前駐館的人員有多少？"],["陳副司長詠博：委員好。目前在那邊的駐館人員，包含我們的技術團在索馬利蘭，原則上大概20位左右，包含技術團及醫療團的人員。"],["馬委員文君：他們現在可以自由進出嗎？"],["陳副司長詠博：因為他們目前都還沒有進出的需求，因為這個事情發生在4月底，目前我們跟一些理念相近國家還有索馬利蘭政府，一直共同在解決這個問題，希望可以儘速有一個比較好的結果。"],["馬委員文君：因為它現在限制使用我們的護照，這會是很大的麻煩，而且我們也互設代表處，所以它今天這樣的作為，雖然現在可能還沒有立即要離開的需求，可是他遲早一定要回來，就這個部分，我們希望可以有更積極的作為。至於要怎麼樣去維護他們的權益跟安全，因為才剛發生，而我特別提到這個部分是希望接下來也一起討論，近期如果有什麼樣的進展再提供給我們。我知道美方可能也有一些動作，可是能夠達到什麼樣的效果，我們不知道。"],["陳次長明祺：是，我們相信應該是會有效果的，我們當然也跟索馬利亞表達強烈的抗議，尤其遺憾的是，他們錯誤的扭曲解釋第2758號決議文，利用這樣的理由來禁止持有我國護照的民眾經過索馬利亞進出索馬利蘭，這是一個遺憾的事情。"],["馬委員文君：好，次長，剛剛提到這樣的情形，我們在國內不管怎麼樣去譴責或怎樣去訴求其實都沒有用，因為事實上，它不斷地在發生。就像之前南非，我們本來也是設代表處，後來把它降成經濟文化辦事處，因為他們也是以第2758號決議來決定。另外，有很多我們參與國際組織的障礙大概也都是因為這樣，包括國際刑警組織，過去我們也曾經以中華民國的名義作為正式會員。"],["陳次長明祺：對。"],["馬委員文君：可是後來被排除了，還有國際民航組織、世界衛生組織等等。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["馬委員文君：至少在WHA，其實我們也曾經是觀察員，可是現在什麼都不是，所以就這些發生的事情，顯然大家沒有辦法同時去認可第2758號決議。就發生的這些狀況，我只是舉例，其他還有更多，因為我們面對國際非常多的國家，大概都是以他們自己國家的解釋，我們沒有辦法去改變，對我們來說，就會限縮越來越大、影響越來越深，而且我們可能也會受到更多的傷害。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["馬委員文君：4月底美中在聯合國安理會會議中，就第2758號決議。有激烈的辯論，代表這個議題其實在安理會至少被實質討論，而不是只有在每年的聯合國大會裡面靠友邦或者友好國家的發言支持而已，這可能也是開啟我們能否參與國際組織實質的第一步，這是其中一個。另外，在去年5月巴勒斯坦在聯合國會員議題上面，也被聯合國大會以壓倒性的多數通過決議，認定它符合聯合國憲章，應該要被接納。雖然最後這個案子被安理會否決，可是至少巴勒斯坦獲得了國際上普遍的支持跟認定，這是他們努力的結果。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["馬委員文君：我們很希望可以得到國際的認可，雖然還有很多要努力的方向，即我們剛剛提到的美國在安理會做了實質的討論。我們不要每年都是只計算多少友邦幫我們發言，而不斷地在原地踏步。另外還有一個，日前美國眾議院通過了臺灣國際團結法案，這個部分強調第2758號決議沒有處理臺灣或臺灣人民在聯合國或相關組織的代表權問題，他們現在的主張是這樣。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["馬委員文君：可是這個在過去、2023年，他們也曾經通過，對不對？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["馬委員文君：後來沒有成為正式的法案是為什麼？既然美國這麼支持我們，眾議院也通過了，可是沒有成為正式可以執行的法案，那時候是為什麼？現在又提出來，不會面對同樣的問題嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：請北美司來回答一下。"],["焦副司長國祐：報告委員，美國國會法案的立法必須由參議院跟眾議院兩院都要通過才生效，你講的2023年的那個應該是一個決議案，決議案基本上是沒有法律拘束力的，所以並不是有沒有生效的問題。"],["馬委員文君：因為它提出來他們也是一樣通過嘛！那就跟現在一樣，當然還需要經過參議院，最後還要總統支持通過才可以執行。如果我們一直重複在這些動作……剛剛講的2758號對我們的限縮越來越嚴重，包括我們在民航組織裡面，其實現在很多航空公司已經把我們的名稱全部都改掉了，越來越矮化，可是我們拿他們一點辦法都沒有。其實在川普總統第一任的時候，對於中方這樣的要求有強力去抗衡，可是現在還是全部都被改掉了，請問我們有什麼因應的作法？因為都被改成中國臺北了。"],["陳次長明祺：我們還是一樣結合理念相同的國家。也跟委員報告，像剛才您所說的，眾院通過了非具有強制力的決議文之後，我們也看到雖然它沒有變成一個法案，它本來的設計就是這個樣子，但重點在於我們看到在聯合國當中，美國的政治參事吳婷也很正式表達美國的立場，包括美國行政單位也多次表達他們對2758號的看法，他們的詮釋和立場其實是跟眾院、參院所提出來的決議文接近的，所以這是我們努力的方向，還有更多的國家繼續來……"],["馬委員文君：次長，因為時間的關係，我覺得不需要用文字上的敘述，我們要的是實質的結果，就像我們為什麼特別提巴勒斯坦來對照，其實主要就是如果今天已經有這樣子的方向，到底可以做到什麼樣的程度？其實應該是要受到國際普遍認同，我們現在卻是越來越限縮，不像是有被更認可的現象發生，所以這是我們現在的困境，這也是外交部要努力的部分，不然我們編了那麼多的預算，重要的預算其實並沒有被刪凍，這個部分要設法做到更好，才是一個好的成績，好不好？"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝委員的鼓勵，這也是外交部未來努力的方向。"],["馬委員文君：關於後續的進度，剛剛我們講的索馬利蘭的部分，請你們提供一些書面，比如現在應該要怎麼做、會有什麼樣的因應措施，以及我們現在在那裡的人員，包括技術團及派駐相關人員的處置方式，麻煩提供書面資料，謝謝。"],["陳次長明祺：一定。好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員的質詢。","接下來由沈伯洋召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-12","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","馬文君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra 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去年五百多億去年被詐騙的五百多億其中很大的因素就是個資啦"},{"start":267.115,"end":287.723,"text":"其中很大的因素就是個資 是 我們的人民常常就接到電話就被騙了對不對 個資就是個資嘛 對不對所以這個部分連博士教授都被騙了 對不對 就是個資嘛"},{"start":289.321,"end":312.554,"text":"所以這個部分是很嚴重的所以我才會說怎麼會112年修法要成立各支保護委員會到現在不成立所以當然你很難去回應啦因為你這個不是行政院院長不是行政院秘書長我們問你也是很難我們腳步都一直在加快沒有停歇"},{"start":313.935,"end":338.09,"text":"這個我是認為成立了之後才能夠有人力事實上如果我們這個從公務體系來看為了跟這個個資有關的其實國家通信傳播委員會然後也成立了速發部速發部像這樣的"},{"start":340.734,"end":360.161,"text":"我們一個機關一個機關其實都成立很多啦但是我們的各支所影響的除了各支所影響的之外所謂的詐騙的一個金額逐年的逐年的提高去年就500多億所以這個部分是一個"},{"start":364.943,"end":385.562,"text":"不是全部是個資的問題,但是個資是一個很重要的因素常常很多電話,就接到電話所以這個部分是一個需要去加強的部分所以從今天的報告裡面也提到相關的這些需要去積極加強的部分"},{"start":387.825,"end":411.301,"text":"然後未來這個相關的重大的面向也都提到了所以我建議你回去跟行政院院長說趕快到這個委員會那個組織法要去協調是 沒問題司法法治委員會趕快安排好不好好共同努力好 謝謝委員執照"},{"start":415.711,"end":417.004,"text":"好 謝謝政天財"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":420,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時14分）主席、各位委員。有請主任。"],["主席：請李主任。"],["李主任世德：鄭委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主任好。今天在場的都是公務員，個人資料保護法事實上以前是法務部主管，84年8月就公布施行，過了這麼長的時間，確實也需要去做修正，然後也修正過，上一次修正是112年5月31號，但修正的條文不多，很重要的就是有一些條文，像第四十八條修正之後就自公布日施行。很重要的第一條之一，當初修正主要的目的應該就是第一條之一之施行日期，由行政院定之；然後個人資料保護法第一條之一第一項規定，本法之主管機關為個人資料保護委員會。也就是說，這個法本來是法務部主管的，現在要移到一個新成立的機關，當初是因為考量到有非常非常多個資的問題。我一直很納悶，112年5月31號公布施行，然後也規定由行政院另定施行日期，對於這個第一條之一，為什麼會這麼久了，112年到113年、114年有兩年多了，請問一下，為什麼呢？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，中間還有一個是這邊條文看不到的，這裡面有一個很重要的、很大的變革，就是我們國家要成立一個新的獨立機關，這是以前從來沒有過的，是瞬間、直接，然後又獨立、又專管，那個變化真的是很大，所以這裡面還有……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：是因為憲法判決的關係嗎？"],["李主任世德：憲法判決是一個回應，本來行政院自己在110年就已經有一個規劃，在人權行動方案裡面就已經在思考要不要去成立，所以這比憲法判決更早，就是要成立我們自己國家就個人資料保護隱私的一個獨立專責機關，後來因為要實事求是，還是要有一個籌備處，所以行政院在112年12月5號先成立一個籌備處，希望把這個組織先籌設出來，所以這中間還有一個部分在條文裡面是看不到的，就是因為要籌設一個機關所成立的籌備處，就是我們現在正在做的工作。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道，但畢竟籌備處人力有限，權責有限。"],["李主任世德：是，它主要不是要執法，是要把機關生出來。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以真的是有限，你自己可以去查，從過去到現在，請問籌備處是從什麼時候開始成立的？"],["李主任世德：112年12月5號。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，恐怕是成立最久的籌備處。"],["李主任世德：也不會啦！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：以往都沒有那麼久啦！"],["李主任世德：有些籌備處成立十幾年的也有，但是我們這個有時間性的問題。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：重點是在於個資法的嚴重性，所以才會去修正。"],["李主任世德：就是大家都有這個共識。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：事實上，臺灣成為一個詐騙國家，詐騙非常的多，像去年被詐騙的有五百多億，其中很大的因素就是個資，我們的人民常常會接到電話，然後就被騙了，個資就是個資，連博士、教授都被騙了，對不對？就是個資嘛！所以這個部分是很嚴重的，所以我才會說，怎麼會112年修法要成立個資保護委員會，但到現在還不成立？當然你很難去回應，因為你不是行政院院長，不是行政院秘書長，我們問你也很難得到答案。"],["李主任世德：我們腳步一直都在加快，沒有停歇。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我是認為成立之後才能夠有人力，事實上，如果我們從公務體系來看，為了跟個資有關而成立的，其實有國家通訊傳播委員會，然後也成立了數發部，像這樣的一個機關、一個機關，我們其實都成立了很多，但是除了我們的個資所影響的之外，所謂詐騙的金額，是逐年的提高，像去年就有五百多億，這個部分當然不是全部都是個資的問題，但是個資是一個很重要的因素，常常很多情況就是接到了電話就被騙了，所以這是一個需要去加強的部分。","今天你的報告裡面也提到相關需要去積極加強的部分，然後未來相關的重大面向也都提到了，所以我要建議你回去跟行政院院長說，這個委員會的組織法要趕快去協調。"],["李主任世德：是，沒問題。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：請司法及法制委員會也會趕快安排，好不好？"],["李主任世德：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：大家共同努力。"],["李主任世德：好，謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。下一位請張啓楷委員發言，張啓楷委員發言後，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-12","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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理解那我在想說因為在那個憲判當中的時候也特別提到了就是退出權的問題那健保署這邊很清楚的提到說相關的一個健保署的退出權大概八月份可以實施嘛對不對可以實施具體時間點是這樣的是不是是不是要衛福部要先做說明因為這是他們專法裡面規劃的OK"},{"start":168.198,"end":168.724,"text":"透過麥克風講好不好"},{"start":180.037,"end":204.814,"text":"報導委員依照我們憲法判決第四項的說法就是不管我們專法有沒有通過然後退出權民眾都可以向健保署去申請那這一塊的部分我們健保署已經有在做相關的規劃那未來不管我的健保資料管理條例能不能在這個會期通過健保署都會對外宣布有關那個健保資料申請退出的機制"},{"start":210.318,"end":232.992,"text":"那我想特別請教一下李主任那個您繼續在這位副部這邊因為其實跟我們有相關的個資的部分包括國健署的癌症登記包括我們社會安全網的個資包括我們醫護集法統計法精神衛生法等等很多的部分這個部分的時候我們民眾是不是一樣有退出權的一個可以使用"},{"start":234.053,"end":257.096,"text":"李主任跟委員報告目前111年13號的判決裡面他的退出權的這個其實現在是先苛責說衛福專法就是健保資料庫因為剛剛衛福部這邊有提到說不管專法有沒有過他們現在民眾都可以去要求退出權那按照這樣子的原則當中的時候只要像其他的部會"},{"start":258.517,"end":286.972,"text":"牽涉到各自的部分 我們民眾是不是也能夠這樣去行使退出權好 因為憲判的那個退出權現在是先鎖定是這個資料庫所以沒有說叫各自法要去訂一個那這個部分我們希望說那個就是各自會這邊的時候其實針對這部分趕快去因為你剛剛在回答其他委員我有聽到一個點就是說你希望按照兩階段修法其實這兩階段修法其實坦白說我有特別注意到其實原本我們召委他原本排的"},{"start":287.592,"end":308.608,"text":"那個議程的時候本來是院版加上11個委員的版本結果現在後來只剩下院版加3個委員的版本那顯然的時候我想應該是你這邊特別去拜託把一些相關的跟這一次行政院院版沒有關係的法案都先不排列是這樣子的一個情況嗎"},{"start":310.03,"end":332.001,"text":"跟委員報告 當然排案是召委的權利啦但是以目前現在的一個規劃的方式版我們就是兩階段那還有其他委員的一些提案我們當然是希望說我們目前第二階段的我們還在持續在籌備出來這個研議那也沒有說要等到說個人資料保安會成立之後他才開始去接手"},{"start":332.521,"end":347.435,"text":"我們希望他趕快成立然後下一階段這邊的接手能夠無縫接夥因為我針對這個比方說原本這是一個委員當中的版本當中我看到了就是家福中心他最近有一個民調出來的時候就是台灣就是"},{"start":350.905,"end":368.298,"text":"接觸網路的年紀越來越小然後比例越來越高然後各自曝光的風險其實也越來越高針對這樣的情況的時候所以我發現數位足跡很重要通信紀錄很重要可是"},{"start":369.139,"end":384.273,"text":"在其他有很多的委員本來都提到了相關的部分可是在這一次修法當中都沒有提我在想可能就是你剛剛提到說想要二階段修法的時候所以這個部分可能都沒有排到今天的一個修法版本當中"},{"start":384.973,"end":405.188,"text":"對 因為跟委員報告 我們是期盼 因為其實未來真正要對話是長射機關努力機關 而不是籌備處 我知道各個委員都期盼最後各支法還是要做很多大的修正所以我們現在的目標是 當然趕快先把這個機關籌設 必要配套各支法這個第一階段先通過"},{"start":406.469,"end":428.167,"text":"然後二階段的這個修法內容所以你的意思是說你的責任就是就把這個委員會籌設起來之後修法的部分就是以後人家的事情是這個意思嗎我們現在籌備處在還沒有也同時在做嘛對不對所以我認為其實很多委員的版本當中都有提到了一個數位主機跟通訊記錄這相關的問題我覺得是非常重要的"},{"start":431.929,"end":459.406,"text":"所以我們也希望就是現在能夠做的就馬上去做不要等到推到第二階段不會這樣子嘛第二階段的工作我們現在已經在開始進行那我另外要特別提到因為經濟部不斷的在推AI這部分那確實也非常的蓬勃那AI這邊可能會牽涉到的一些個資的一些問題"},{"start":461.69,"end":488.99,"text":"我們這邊要怎麼處理打算要在什麼時候的時候能夠把這個部分把它處理好好 當然這邊有一個重要的就所謂的人工智慧基本法也同時之內進行人工智慧基本法裡面很重要就是個資保護是現在在規劃的一個方向有關於涉及到人工智慧的個資保護是要由未來的這個個人資料保護委員會"},{"start":490.571,"end":508.411,"text":"那您剛有提到我剛聽到你在回答另外一個委員提到說這個部分如果牽涉到公司他如果沒有在台灣落地的時候我們要怎麼處理因為你剛有特別提到公司有沒有落地在台灣很關鍵對於我們各自的保障能不能真正的保障到那我們這個部分我們要怎麼去做"},{"start":509.191,"end":528.949,"text":"對 當然就是下一階段在處理我們剛才說管轄權的部分要把它明確出來那指定落地現在已經有一個不錯的經驗在那個炸打的這個條例裡面它是採用指定你落地的方法那我們覺得這是一個很好的一個立法的法治經驗我們在剛剛所說的二階段這部分我們會把它參酌進來是"},{"start":530.85,"end":555.781,"text":"那我在想說二階段這邊希望該保障各自的部分我們趕快做能夠做就做不要把很多的事情都推到了二階段之後我覺得這樣其實是不適合的我們繼續希望就是說我們繼續做做到說他成立之後把我們這個任務型機關他會裁測相關的業務會移波到那邊在這之前我們能做的還是要繼續進行"},{"start":557.34,"end":574.586,"text":"最後我要特別提到因為這次願滿當中的時候它對於非公務機關的對個資保障如果沒有落實的時候會罰則而且範圍擴大可是對於公務機關的部分一樣沒有任何的罰則那這個部分我們要怎麼處理"},{"start":576.038,"end":591.306,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們現在的規定還是內部的這個懲戒懲處這個機制我們還是有把他補進來那公務機關的一個處方也參照我們最近在看外國的立法尤其是英國他們就是經驗之下他們發覺"},{"start":593.027,"end":611.147,"text":"不是說處罰公務機關直接就可以產生很多的一個廣泛的效應因為公務機關就這樣你處罰他他還是會去進行徵送所以變成耗費很多時間在進行徵送所以英國最近他們也在考量說這個處罰公務機關這件事情到底他的實際性有到多高"},{"start":611.607,"end":628.613,"text":"OK 那這部分還是得要去處理因為當我們這次修法的時候針對非公務機關的處罰是提高的狀態大幅提高的狀態然後我們對於之前2300萬筆護證資料外洩的事情到現在感覺也都沒有任何的一個懲處"},{"start":630.074,"end":652.214,"text":"那感覺好像就是公務機關如果說洩漏個資的時候好像也都無所謂那我覺得這樣其實是有問題的那我們也希望主任在這個部分的時候當我們要成立個資會的時候這個機制我們現在已經把它放進來在上次你也知道委員有就教我們所以我們就把委員的這個希望說對於人員的懲戒懲處要放進來所以我們這次修法有把它先放進來"},{"start":653.001,"end":666.288,"text":"OK好那這個部分的時候我們也希望能夠好好去落實然後對於我們個資的部分不只是只要求非公務機關我們公務機關也能夠給就是台灣的個資做最好的一個保障好不好是是是謝謝委員支持好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":362,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時3分）謝謝主席，我想請個資保護委員會籌備處的李世德主任。"],["主席：請李主任。"],["李主任世德：鄭委員早。"],["鄭委員正鈐：李主任早。憲法法庭在111年憲判當中有特別提到臺灣健保資料庫的運用有部分違憲，而且要求三年內要改善，這次行政院提出了院版的個資法修法，應該跟這有很密切的關係，應該是這樣吧？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，111年當時的憲判字第13號有主文二跟主文三、四，三跟四目前是由衛福部正在草擬一個很重要的衛福專法。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["李主任世德：二的這一塊當然是獨立進行，但是等到個人資料保護委員會未來成立之後，對於健保的衛生福利專法在運作過程中，因為畢竟它也是一個公務機關，個人資料保護委員會還是要去監督它對於這一個專法的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，理解，因為當時憲判當中提到兩個，第一個是要成立一個獨立的監督機制，因為不夠，所以要有一個獨立監督機制，另外就是對於個人退出權的部分，個資會目前正在積極籌備當中，我知道組織法也送到司法及法制委員會了，請問有沒有預計大概什麼時候這個個資會能夠順利成立？你這邊有沒有具體抓一個時間點？"],["李主任世德：我們當然期盼在這個會期能夠審議通過……"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個會期嘛？"],["李主任世德：但是因為審議通過之後，未來還有一段時間，通過之後的法還要再去執行。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，所以你希望這個會期這個法通過之後就可以開始成立，對不對？"],["李主任世德：就開始去規劃，因為行政院會再去指定修正過後的個資法施行時間，我們希望把這個時間縮得愈短愈好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，理解。憲判當中特別提到退出權的問題，健保署很清楚地提到該署的退出權大概8月份可以實施，對不對？具體時間點是這樣子，是不是？"],["李主任世德：是不是衛福部要先做說明？因為這是他們專法裡面規劃的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。透過麥克風講，好不好？"],["林科長秋碧：報告委員，依照憲法判決主文第四項的說法，不管專法有沒有通過，基於退出權，民眾都可以向健保署去申請。我們健保署已經有在做相關的規劃，未來不管健保資料管理條例能不能在這個會期通過，健保署都會對外宣布有關健保資料申請退出的機制是怎麼樣施行。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，簡單講，你剛才提到不管專法有沒有過，其實民眾都可以去要求退出權，對不對？"],["林科長秋碧：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我想特別請教一下李主任，請衛福部的代表繼續留下來。其實跟個資相關的部分，包括國健署的癌症登記、社會安全網的個資，包括依戶籍法、統計法、精神衛生法等等其他法律，請問李主委，民眾是不是一樣有退出權可以使用？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，目前依111年憲判字第13號的判決，退出權的機制現在是先課責於衛福專法，就是健保資料庫這些專法……"],["鄭委員正鈐：剛剛衛福部有提到不管專法有沒有過，現在民眾都可以去要求退出權。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：按照這樣的原則，像其他部會只要牽涉到個資的部分，民眾是不是也能夠去行使退出權？"],["李主任世德：因為憲判的退出權現在是先鎖定那個資料庫，所以沒有叫個資法要去訂一個退出權……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我們希望個資會針對這部分趕快去處理。你剛剛在回答其他委員的時候，我有聽到一個點，就是你希望按照兩階段修法。坦白說，我有特別注意到召委原本排的議程是院版加上11個委員的版本，結果現在只剩下院版加3個委員的版本，顯然應該是你這邊特別去拜託把跟這次行政院院版沒有關係的法案都先不排入，是這樣子的情況嗎？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，排案是召委的權利，但是以目前規劃的方式，本來我們就是兩階段，還有其他委員的一些提案，我們當然是希望……目前第二階段我們還持續在籌備，還是會研議，也沒有要等到個人資料保護會成立之後才開始去接手，我們希望它趕快成立，讓下一階段的接手能夠無縫接軌，包括剛剛委員說的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，比方在原本這11個委員版本當中，我看到家扶中心最近有一個民調出來，就是臺灣接觸網路的年紀愈來愈小，比例愈來愈高，個資曝光的風險確實也愈來愈高，針對這樣的情況，我發現數位足跡很重要、通信紀錄很重要，其他有很多委員本來都提到相關的部分，可是在這次的修法當中都沒有提，我在想可能就是你剛才提到想要二階段修法，所以這個部分可能都沒有排今天的修法版本當中。"],["李主任世德：對，跟委員報告，我們是期盼，因為未來真正要對話的是那個常設的獨立機關，而不是籌備處。我知道各個委員都期盼最後個資法還是要做大的修正，所以我們現在的目標是趕快先把這個機關籌設，其必要配套、個資法修正等第一階段先通過，二階段的修法內容……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你的意思是你的責任就是把這個委員會籌設起來之後，修法的部分就是以後人家的事情，你是這個意思嗎？"],["李主任世德：不會、不會，現在我們籌備處在還沒有……"],["鄭委員正鈐：也同時在做，對不對？"],["李主任世德：同時在做。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我認為很多委員的版本當中都有提到數位足跡跟通信紀錄相關的問題，我覺得這非常重要……"],["李主任世德：是，這很重要，這很重要。"],["鄭委員正鈐：包括許宇甄委員也特別提到……"],["李主任世德：沒有錯。"],["鄭委員正鈐：賴瑞隆委員、黃捷委員他們都提到這部分。"],["李主任世德：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以我們也希望現在能夠做的就馬上去做，不要等到、推到第二階段才……"],["李主任世德：不會、不會。"],["鄭委員正鈐：不會這樣子嘛？"],["李主任世德：第二階段的工作我們現在已經在開始進行了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，好。我另外要特別提到，經濟部不斷地在推AI的部分，確實也非常地蓬勃，AI的部分可能會牽涉到一些個資的問題，我們要怎麼處理？打算在什麼時候能夠把這個部分處理好？"],["李主任世德：這邊有一個重要的人工智慧基本法也同時正在進行，人工智慧基本法裡面很重要的就是個資保護，現在規劃的方向是，涉及到人工智慧的個資保護要由未來的個人資料保護委員會去主責推動。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我剛剛聽到你在回答另外一位委員時提到，這個部分如果牽涉到公司沒有在臺灣落地的時候，我們要怎麼處理？你剛剛有特別提到，公司有沒有落地在臺灣對於我們的個資能不能真正地保障到很關鍵，這個部分我們要怎麼去做？"],["李主任世德：下一階段在處理剛才說的管轄權的部分要明確出來，指定落地現在已經有一個不錯的經驗在詐打的條例裡面，它是採用指定落地的方法，我們覺得這是一個很好的立法法制經驗，我們在剛剛所說的二階段部分會參酌進來。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。我在想二階段針對希望該保障個資的部分趕快做，能夠做就做，不要把很多的事情都推到了二階段之後，我覺得這樣其實是不適合的。"],["李主任世德：不會、不會，我們希望我們繼續做，做到它成立之後，我們這個任務型機關會裁撤，相關的業務會移撥到那邊，在這之前我們能做的還是要繼續進行。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。最後我要特別提到，這次院版當中對於非公務機關的個資保障如果沒有落實會有罰則，而且範圍擴大，可是對於公務機關的部分一樣沒有任何的罰則，這個部分我們要怎麼處理？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，我們現在的規定是，對於內部的懲戒、懲處機制還是有補進來，公務機關的處罰也參酌我們最近在看其他外國的立法例，尤其是英國，他們從經驗中發覺不是處罰公務機關，就可以直接產生很多廣泛的效應，因為公務機關被處罰之後，還是會去進行爭訟，變成耗費很多時間在進行爭訟，所以英國最近也在考量處罰公務機關這件事情到底實益性有多高，最後又變成法律爭訟。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，這部分還是得去處理，因為當我們這次修法的時候，針對非公務機關的處罰是提高的狀態，而且是大幅提高的狀態，但是我們之前2,300萬筆戶政資料外洩的事情到現在也都沒有任何的懲處，感覺公務機關如果洩漏個資的時候好像也都無所謂，我覺得這樣其實是有問題的，我們也希望主任在這個部分，當我們要成立個資會的時候……"],["李主任世德：有，有關個資會這個機制，我們現在已經放進來，上次委員有就教我們，委員希望對於人員的懲戒、懲處要放進來，所以我們這次修法有先放進來。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，好。這個部分我們也希望能夠好好去落實，對於個資的部分，不只是要求非公務機關，對於公務機關也要讓臺灣的個資做最好的保障，好不好？"],["李主任世德：是，謝謝委員支持。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員。","下一位請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-12","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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層級上面齁 那麼這是一個國家的象徵第二個 但是它是一個宗教的一個國家齁 那麼梵蒂岡 所以是說...那我們有沒有提出說我們希望賴總統去 還是說我們也沒有做這樣的提議我覺得這個是都是由總統來決定齁 這個由誰 他自己或是由這個他指派的誰來當代表 這個決定權是在總統"},{"start":132.572,"end":151.512,"text":"所以你不確定總統有沒有提出他希望可以參加喪禮他也有可能他提出來就是不希望參加由陳建仁去就好了我相信這都是在雙方的一個好的溝通互動的協調裡面是嗎那陳建仁在擔任特使那請問他有沒有見到川普總統本人呢"},{"start":153.276,"end":171.879,"text":"據我們的媒體的掌握是沒有那只有跟前總統拜登合照那麼這次是否跟美國前總統合影你們認為叫做重要的外交突破那如果是的話為什麼我們在新聞稿裡面是沒有提到的"},{"start":176.004,"end":201.752,"text":"您說說這個我們不會把這個教宗的這個喪禮當成是一個同槌外交的場合不是我是說跟前總統拜登的這個合影那變成是說我們呢在外交上有重要的突破這跟所謂的出席這個喪禮是不一樣兩件事情不是還是就是說我們是跟這個陳前副總統代表這個出席可是你上面都有提到啦"},{"start":202.292,"end":211.199,"text":"我們跟巴拉圭然後其他的部長我們都有交流之意所以如果您說您看這是我們的新聞稿然後我們有哀悼之意然後教廷統計有多少人去陳特使抵達的時候引導然後跟哪一些人都有見面之外還有跟巴拉圭的眾議長"},{"start":226.03,"end":230.131,"text":"然後伉儷 瓜地馬拉 文化系體育部長等邦交國及有盟國家代表交流之意所以跟您剛剛講的是不一樣的啊您剛剛說我們因為去參加這個世事人家的喪禮所以我們不會把這個跟對方可能有其他的國家有合影啊或者是有互動啊寫出來"},{"start":249.878,"end":274.567,"text":"可是不對啊我們的新聞稿上面就寫了我們跟巴拉圭以及瓜地馬拉這樣子互相交流之意的部分但是我們見了這個拜登前總統卻完全沒有提到為什麼會這樣為什麼會要做這樣的決定呢沒有沒有我覺得這個事情不是這樣就是說我們是自然的互動然後我們那跟拜登總統就不自然嗎"},{"start":275.72,"end":282.304,"text":"很自然啊很自然嘛對啊所以自然所以我們有照片也有照片露出啊欸不是啊我就問嘛為什麼我們的新聞稿沒有發"},{"start":284.148,"end":302.215,"text":"的原因理由是什麼啊就是你們因為你剛剛告訴我說你們沒有發的原因在於你們沒有發的原因在於這是人家的這個告別式所以呢我們所有的這一些跟其他的友邦也都不會寫出來可是沒有啊你們新聞稿上有寫啊所以你剛剛說的並不是實話啊那所以說既然今天有跟這個這個我們拜登前總統合照那為什麼不放呢"},{"start":314.686,"end":336.378,"text":"我想一個照片應該說明了很多的事情是嗎 那新聞稿沒有寫 那又說明了什麼呢好 還有2013年我們方濟哥就職的時候前總統馬英九也到了梵蒂岡觀禮在教廷人員引導之下一起見到我們的教宗然後有熱情的握手"},{"start":336.998,"end":363.233,"text":"那在這個就職儀式上面馬英九前總統被安排在第一排的位置那我再請問喔接下來他們正在進行改選請問賴清德總統會不會到梵蒂岡我們盡力的盡全力來跟對方協調但是那個現在教廷最重要的事情並不是來處理這個外交的疑節而是要先透過書密會議選出新的教宗"},{"start":363.473,"end":381.333,"text":"我当然知道啊但我问的是接下来因为前面我告诉你啊那前面呢这个是陈前总统那他呢都会去参加了这样子的一个丧礼然后呢这个呢上任新的教宗呢前马总统呢也都有去是"},{"start":381.894,"end":405.932,"text":"那問題是這樣子兩次的就是說如果說這個告別式的部分那我們的賴總統沒有去那人家新任的教宗上任了之後我們也沒有去會不會覺得那中間是發生了什麼樣的事情導致於說都沒有辦法參加是我們不願意去參加還是別人沒讓我們參加"},{"start":407.509,"end":419.541,"text":"跟委員報告這個還確認到是說其實總統他的行程的安排那麼他的這個整個總統的安排有比參加這個重要嗎他有什麼行程是賴總統是有什麼行程是比參加我們的友邦教皇的這個告別式還要來的重要的"},{"start":426.007,"end":445.713,"text":"我想不透我們 鮑偉勇我們一定全力的爭取跟對方的協調能夠促成適當的由總統指派或是總統親自出席這個我們一定會全力的來吧對啊 那你們都說全力會了那可是我們在教皇喪禮上面那就沒有看到這個賴總統嘛所以賴總統沒有去是派我們的這個副總統去陳副總統去是因為他行程太忙"},{"start":455.595,"end":465.275,"text":"我想這個總統沒有告訴我們他的考量是什麼我們雙方一定是有好的協調那你們好的協調那是不是請問義大利有沒有反對"},{"start":467.223,"end":486.676,"text":"義大利沒有義大利那個教廷這還是主要是跟教廷的這個互動你們因為單是會經過義大利嗎對一定會經過義大利對啊所以我問的是義大利有沒有反對義大利有沒有跟你們協調我們主要還是跟教廷協調之後再來跟這個義大利下去所以嘛我問了我想是包括我問了嘛義大利部分"},{"start":487.296,"end":501.565,"text":"有沒有反對沒有反對沒有聽說沒有聽說所以完全就是因為賴清德總統他自己有行程所以沒有參加不是 我也不是這樣說我想是總統有他的來決定那麼人選為何所以總統決定不參加的"},{"start":503.501,"end":520.366,"text":"總統覺得是說陳前副總統跟教宗的實際的這個有個人的情誼本身又是天主教徒非常受到教廷的重視我想這是一個陳前副總統是一個尊重商家的決定但是問題是賴總統如果去的話成績更高啊"},{"start":526.311,"end":547.188,"text":"那當然都很好那我覺得就是說總統有他的一個想法跟他的決定那所以說未來我們如果說選出新的教宗也一樣是派陳前副總統去賴清德總統身為這個很重要的我們的歐洲的友邦結果呢他都不去參加因為他行程很忙然後他認為說這個呢這個陳前副總統那跟這個教宗跟教廷比較熟就派他去那問題是這樣子的話對我們國家的友邦"},{"start":555.655,"end":576.824,"text":"那如果當然我知道陳前副總統他跟梵蒂岡他是天主教的那是有好的關係但是更重要的是我們如果是賴總統去的話他的層級更高能夠代表我們中華民國去致意那是更重要而且呢更讓對方感受到這是我們友邦"},{"start":577.424,"end":583.708,"text":"這一定是如此的嘛所以我才會覺得說為什麼第一個我再把問題講一次那時間到了也不用特別回答就是第一個為什麼我們的賴總統是不是自己去參加而是呢請了我們陳前副總統去參加第二個我們在過程當中呢總統是怎麼樣去決策的是行程太忙還是受到什麼樣的一個打壓"},{"start":602.398,"end":628.515,"text":"第三個前面的包含是陳前總統就是陳水扁總統以及馬英九總統都有親自到了這個梵蒂岡那為什麼我們到現在我們的賴總統都沒有去過再來呢跟拜登拍照前總統拜登拍照為什麼我們沒有放在我們的新聞稿裡面而是放了其他的一些我們的友邦的互動最後我們也要強調的是那接下來接下來"},{"start":630.296,"end":650.505,"text":"如果教宗選出來之後我們要到管理的這個就職的管理那到底是賴清德總統他去或是不去那我們當然都希望賴清德總統可以爭取去而不是像這次這樣子我知道陳前副總統他跟教宗他跟這一些梵蒂岡的國家是非常親近的"},{"start":651.505,"end":664.541,"text":"但是他身為我們的友邦我國的元首出席那是更重要的一件事情所以我們也希望就是說呢我們能夠在接下來的這個官裡的部分因為總是會選出來嘛那還有一段時間選出來官裡的時候我們是由賴總統親自到"},{"start":670.788,"end":694.268,"text":"而不是說我行程很忙所以就沒辦法去就請別人因為我覺得你們比較熟我就請你去不是的梵蒂岡是我們在歐洲重要的友邦應該由我們的元首出席這才是我們中華民國對梵蒂岡最大的敬重所以我希望外交部可以有機會的話也要跟總統溝通這一點"},{"start":697.31,"end":720.854,"text":"不是说哎呀这个我因为你跟他们很熟就这样不是我们是元首代表中华民国到梵蒂冈跟我们的友邦致意无论是丧礼或者是官礼都是一样的所以我们希望能够外交部能够促成这样子的一个行程才能展示出我们对于梵蒂冈作为一个友邦的最高重视谢谢谢谢谢谢西小新的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":301,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時）謝謝主席，有請外交部次長。"],["陳次長明祺：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：你好。對於教皇的離開，我想大家都感到非常難過，因為梵蒂岡是我們在歐洲唯一而且重要的友邦。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：我想要詢問這次教皇的喪禮為何賴總統沒有辦法出席？"],["陳次長明祺：第一個是基於陳建仁前副總統是教廷長期的朋友，他跟教宗有非常密切的關係，我們跟教廷協調了之後，因為教宗逝世，他們是主要我們所說的喪家……"],["徐委員巧芯：是，我懂。"],["陳次長明祺：尊重他的一個……"],["徐委員巧芯：尊重對方的意願，所以對方認為……"],["陳次長明祺：然後能夠給我們好的安排。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以對方認為尊重他們的意願是陳建仁前總統……"],["陳次長明祺：副總統。"],["徐委員巧芯：前副總統去而不是賴清德總統去嗎？因為當時、2005年，教宗若望保祿二世逝世的時候，是由陳水扁前總統到梵蒂岡參加追思彌撒的，當時都有報導那次的出訪，從簽證到通關都有得到義大利政府最高的禮遇，因為也有過境義大利的狀況。我想要問，為什麼這次層級上比過去還要來得低？"],["陳次長明祺：我想應該不能夠用層級這樣看，這是一個國家的象徵。第二個，梵蒂岡是一個宗教的國家，所以……"],["徐委員巧芯：那我們有沒有提出希望賴總統去？還是也沒有做這樣的提議？"],["陳次長明祺：我覺得這個都是由總統來決定，無論是他自己或是由他指派誰來當代表，這個決定權是在總統。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你不確定總統有沒有提出希望可以參加喪禮，他也有可能提出來就是不希望參加，由陳建仁去就好了。"],["陳次長明祺：我相信這都是在雙方好的溝通、互動的協調裡面。"],["徐委員巧芯：是嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：陳建仁擔任特使，請問他有沒有見到川普總統本人呢？"],["陳次長明祺：據媒體的掌握是沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有？"],["陳次長明祺：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：只有跟前總統拜登合照？"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：這次跟美國前總統合影，你們是否認為叫做重要的外交突破？如果是的話，為什麼在新聞稿裡面沒有提到？"],["陳次長明祺：我們不會把教宗的喪禮當成是一個純粹外交的場合。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是，我是說跟前總統拜登的合影，是我們在外交上有重要的突破，這跟所謂的出席喪禮是不一樣的兩件事情。"],["陳次長明祺：陳前副總統代表總統出席之後……"],["徐委員巧芯：可是你上面都有提到啊！我們跟巴拉圭、其他的部長都有交流、致意。你看你們的新聞稿，被有哀悼之意，教廷統計有多少人去，陳特使抵達的時候引導，跟哪一些人都有見面之外，還有跟巴拉圭的眾議長伉儷、瓜拉馬……"],["陳次長明祺：瓜地馬拉。"],["徐委員巧芯：對不起！瓜地馬拉文化暨體育部長、邦交國及友盟國家代表交流致意，所以跟您剛剛講的不一樣。您剛剛說，因為是參加人家的喪禮，所以我們不會把跟其他國家合影或是有互動寫出來，可是不對！你們的新聞稿上面就寫了跟巴拉圭以及瓜地馬拉互相交流、致意，而見了拜登前總統，卻完全沒有提到，為什麼要做這樣的決定呢？"],["陳次長明祺：沒有，我覺得這個事情不是這樣，我們是自然的互動，然後我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：那跟拜登總統就不自然嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：很自然啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：很自然，對啊，所以自然互動……"],["陳次長明祺：所以我們也有照片露出。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是，我就問為什麼你們的新聞稿沒有發？原因、理由是什麼？"],["陳次長明祺：沒有特別的理由。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為你剛剛告訴我說，你們沒有發的原因在於這是人家的告別式，所以所有跟其他的友邦互動也都不會寫出來，可是沒有啊！你們的新聞稿上有寫，所以你剛剛說的並不是實話。既然有跟拜登前總統合照，那為什麼不放呢？"],["陳次長明祺：我想一張照片應該說明了很多的事情。"],["徐委員巧芯：是嗎？那新聞稿沒有寫，那又說明了什麼呢？還有2013年方濟各就職的時候，前總統馬英九也到了梵蒂岡觀禮，在教廷人員引導之下，見到教宗有熱情的握手，在這個就職儀式上面，馬英九前總統被安排在第一排的位置。我再請問，接下來他們正在進行改選，請問賴清德總統會不會到梵蒂岡？"],["陳次長明祺：我們盡全力來跟對方協調，但是現在教廷最重要的事情，並不是來處理外交的儀節，而是要先透過樞密會議選出新的教宗。"],["徐委員巧芯：我當然知道，但我問的是接下來。我告訴過你，因為陳前總統都會去參加這樣的喪禮，然後新的教宗上任，馬前總統也都有去。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：問題是如果告別式，賴總統沒有去，新任的教宗上任了之後，也沒有去，會不會覺得中間是發生了什麼事情，導致都沒有辦法參加？是我們不願意參加，還是別人不讓我們參加？"],["陳次長明祺：跟委員報告，這個還牽涉到總統行程的安排，整個總體的跟對方……"],["徐委員巧芯：行程的安排有比參加這個重要嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：當然，我們把它當成最重要的。"],["徐委員巧芯：賴總統有什麼行程是比參加友邦教皇的告別式還要來得重要？我想不透。"],["陳次長明祺：報告委員，我們一定全力爭取，也跟對方協調能夠促成適當的安排，由總統指派或是總統親自出席，這個我們一定會全力的來……"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊，那你們都說會盡全力了。可是我們在教皇喪禮上面就沒有看到賴總統，所以賴總統沒有去，是派我們的副總統去。"],["陳次長明祺：陳前副總統。"],["徐委員巧芯：派陳前副總統去，是因為他行程太忙？"],["陳次長明祺：我想總統沒有告訴我們他的考量是什麼，但我們雙方一定是有好的協調。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們好的協調，請問義大利有沒有反對？"],["陳次長明祺：義大利？這主要還是跟教廷的互動。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是會經過義大利嘛？"],["陳次長明祺：對，一定會經過義大利。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊，所以我問的是，義大利有沒有反對？義大利有沒有跟你們協調？"],["陳次長明祺：按照之前的……我們主要還是跟教廷協調之後，再來跟義大利協調。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我問了……"],["陳次長明祺：我想是包括陳前總統……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問了嘛，義大利有沒有反對？"],["陳次長明祺：沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有反對？"],["陳次長明祺：沒有聽說。"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有聽說？"],["陳次長明祺：沒有這樣的……"],["徐委員巧芯：完全就是因為賴清德總統自己有行程，所以沒有參加。"],["陳次長明祺：不是，委員不是這樣說，是由總統來決定人選為何。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以是總統決定不參加的？"],["陳次長明祺：總統覺得陳前副總統跟教宗有實際的個人情誼，本身又是天主教徒，非常受到教廷的重視，我想這是一個尊重……"],["徐委員巧芯：陳前副總統。"],["陳次長明祺：派陳前副總統去是一個尊重喪家的決定，也是一個最適當的人選。"],["徐委員巧芯：但問題是賴總統如果去的話，層級更高啊！"],["陳次長明祺：當然都很好。但我覺得總統有他的想法跟決定。"],["徐委員巧芯：未來如果選出新的教宗，也一樣是派陳前副總統去，梵蒂岡是歐洲很重要的友邦，結果賴總統都不去參加，因為他行程很忙，他認為說陳前副總統跟教宗、教廷比較熟，就派他去。問題是這樣子的話，對我們國家的友邦，當然我知道陳前副總統跟梵諦岡有好的關係，他是天主教的，但更重要的是，如果是賴總統去的話，他的層級更高，能夠代表中華民國去致意，是更重要而且更讓對方感受到我們是友邦，這一定是如此的嘛！"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：我再把問題講一次，時間到了，也不用特別回答。第一個，為什麼賴總統不是自己去參加，而是請陳前副總統去參加？第二個，在過程當中，總統是怎麼樣去決策的？是行程太忙，還是受到什麼樣的打壓？第三個，前面包含陳前總統，就是陳水扁總統及馬英九總統都有親自到了梵蒂岡，為什麼到現在賴總統都沒有去過？再來，前副總統跟拜登拍照，為什麼你們沒有放在新聞稿裡面，而是放了一些與其他友邦的互動？最後，我要強調的是，接下來如果教宗選出來之後的就職觀禮，到底賴清德總統去或是不去？我們當然都希望賴清德總統可以爭取去。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：而不是像這次這樣子，我知道陳前副總統跟教宗、跟梵蒂岡是非常親近的，但是它身為我們的友邦，我國的元首出席是更重要的一件事情。我們希望接下來觀禮的部分，因為總是會選出來，還有一段時間，等到觀禮的時候，是由賴總統親自到，而不是說：哎呀！我行程很忙，所以沒辦法去就請別人，因為我覺得你們比較熟，我就請你去。不是的！梵蒂岡是我們在歐洲重要的友邦，應該由我們的元首出席，這才是中華民國對梵蒂岡最大的敬重，所以我希望外交部有機會的話，也要跟總統溝通這一點，不是說：哎呀！因為你跟他們很熟，就這樣。不是！我們是元首代表中華民國到梵蒂岡跟我們的友邦致意，無論是喪禮或者是觀禮都是一樣的，所以我們希望外交部能夠促成這樣的行程，才能展示出我們對於梵蒂岡作為友邦的最高重視，謝謝。"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯的質詢。","接下來請馬文君上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-12","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","馬文君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra 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我們是不是有請邱部長還有食藥署的署長"},{"start":16.567,"end":38.94,"text":"部長這個澳洲的萊豬一來再來讓國人現在對於豬肉食品產生了恐慌其實從2020年當時去訂定這個萊豬的相關管理措施到去年為止豬肉儀表板上面沒有任何有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來"},{"start":41.562,"end":49.451,"text":"但是今年完全破功了而且是接二連三的來這樣子的一個情況衛福部的態度其實讓大家看了"},{"start":55.704,"end":60.865,"text":"覺得更心不安因為這個根據署長對外的說法來了就來了沒有關係一切呢這個吃了吃一輩子也不會怎麼樣這樣的一個說法跟國人對於來際的恐慌跟不安事實上差距非常的遙遠面對這樣子的一個食安標準似乎在往下走在下降"},{"start":81.371,"end":82.792,"text":"我要讓部長跟署長看一下現在的卓內閣不如蘇內閣當時在109年11月26號行政院他頒布了一個進口豬肉之全方位管理措施"},{"start":98.74,"end":121.865,"text":"當時的這個措施他第一點就要求從源頭管理沒有茶廠的肉品廠不准放行不准進口第一個我就要問請問現在澳洲含有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來的這一些肉品廠你們茶廠了沒"},{"start":122.675,"end":141.133,"text":"報告委員剛剛署長已經有跟大家報告過因為澳洲的進口豬肉是在之前就早年已經經過我國行政院農委會的防檢局承諾系統性的開放所以那個時候已經同意"},{"start":142.851,"end":162.996,"text":"109年11月26號行政院才頒布 頒布沒有茶廠的不准放行委員這邊做一點點 稍微補充那是因為在109年之前 行政院 農委會 防檢局其實"},{"start":164.5,"end":188.032,"text":"他就已經承諾系統性的開放基於信賴保護的原則所以就很早很早就開放所以接下來如果委員有這樣子的要求或者希望我們也可以積極來辦理我要求現在澳洲的部分因為已經三批都已經驗出有萊劑了所以他的飼養方式他的相關的豬肉廠你們如果沒有去查場"},{"start":189.493,"end":218.613,"text":"這個根本就直接放行進來這是有問題的所以第一個我的要求就是你們要先暫緩澳洲的豬肉的進口因為他是沒有經過查場的所以沒有經過查場你要回到109年行政院所公告的沒有查場的你就不准進口嘛那你現在是沒有查場先進口啊結果發現他這個已經連續三批都有來濟了基於食安更嚴格的標準你的行政權你是可以先暫緩進口的可不可以"},{"start":219.155,"end":241.378,"text":"跟委員做這邊報告剛才特別提到農業部房檢局其實在很久以前100年以前就是常態性的進口我們基於信賴保護的原則因為你現在查出萊劑了那還有萊劑啊全世界跟委員報告全世界可以允許豬肉裡面使用萊劑的國家呢其實有27個國家"},{"start":242.619,"end":259.788,"text":"我知道其他國家我們有我們的標準嘛109年行政院的標準就是這樣子嘛而且從109年到去年為止包括肉品廠商沒有進口含有萊劑的肉品來到台灣嘛那你今天發現澳洲他們現在在飼養過程萊劑有添加"},{"start":262.449,"end":266.671,"text":"然後你們沒有去查過場從109年到現在從來沒有去查過場所以你們應該要重新啟動嘛這個就是你食藥署對於民眾食安的一個把關的標準啦這個有這麼難辦到嗎在委員這邊做簡單的報告可不可以去查查對對整個的"},{"start":280.858,"end":306.852,"text":"豬肉牛肉管制是我們是一致啦所以這豬肉其實我們有2493批我們驗到都有微量檢出這從101年 署長我現在問你的產地茶廠你澳洲到底要不要去茶廠你就告訴大家我們這邊可以作為進一步的去做辦理可是基於信賴保護原則的其實對於這些我們是允許他們國家也是同意好 那我要求你你至少要去茶廠"},{"start":307.873,"end":336.401,"text":"茶廠你一定要做到這是你食藥署應該要做的事情第二件事情逐批茶宴在109年裡面行政院對國人的承諾是進口豬肉必須逐批茶宴結果到目前為止現在2023年你們已經下降到2到10%了這件事情下降的比例這麼快現在又發現含有萊克多巴胺的肉品你們要不要回到逐批茶宴的這個標準"},{"start":337.546,"end":362.639,"text":"跟委員報告就剛剛我提到的其實有肉品你也含到萊克多巴胺的加上豬的我們有2493加3件的所以對於這樣子的我其實很驕傲要跟委員報告一下所以我們邊境有一個BPI很驕傲這幾個字您可能要小心抱歉因為我們很認真因為同仁很認真做了所謂的BPI所以邊境的我們的人工智慧導入的預測系統"},{"start":363.88,"end":377.691,"text":"那對於沒有違規的產品其實我們會降低對於違規產品會做精準的檢驗跟抽驗所以我們這邊可以跟委員報告我們特別還是要推銷一下我們的Border Protection Intelligence目前按照這個比例來進行這個很聰明"},{"start":380.073,"end":398.452,"text":"容我提醒你 在你們的食安的查驗標準裡面 你們的食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法裡面所謂的要不要百分之百逐批查驗 其中有一項是查驗機關認為有必要予以逐批查驗"},{"start":399.213,"end":403.976,"text":"就可以煮批查驗在第九條第十條加強這個抽批查驗也一樣查驗機關認為有必要的時候就可以實施事實上賦予食藥署非常大的行政權就是要你們去守護國人的食安但是我覺得你們今天在萊克多巴胺的這個議題上面跟國人的認知差距非常的遙遠當國人是恐慌的時候你不但告訴國人說吃這個是安全的"},{"start":427.129,"end":446.743,"text":"當過去都沒有萊豬進來現在被驗出有萊劑的豬肉的時候你還是覺得沒有關係我不需要提高我的逐批查驗這樣的做法我只能告訴署長你沒有辦法安民心過去你們在查一些食安的風暴食安事件你們是怎麼做的"},{"start":447.463,"end":449.445,"text":"一旦發現之後你們會去提高邊境的抽驗的比例你們在下游會大幅的去稽查就是要安民心讓大家知道說有公權力在有中央在所以大家安心但是很抱歉我必須講這一次"},{"start":465.382,"end":479.136,"text":"來租進來之後你們給外界的態度是沒有關係什麼都沒有關係沒有採取任何行動作為要不要公布流向說不用公布要不要逐批查驗說不需逐批查驗"},{"start":480.728,"end":494.357,"text":"那請問我們要食藥署做什麼我們要食藥署是你要維持原來國人對於食安的標準要給國人信心但是你都不作為的情況底下國人只會越來越恐慌"},{"start":495.427,"end":510.395,"text":"所以你過去在查蘇丹紅事件你看你們是怎麼做的過去食安事件你們是怎麼做的那你現在是通通不作為到目前為止你沒有要改變任何的做法所以呢就是澳洲的含有萊劑的豬肉可以持續進口"},{"start":511.636,"end":537.886,"text":"然後現在已經到了268公噸了其中有三分之一都含有萊劑未來不停止他進口繼續進口繼續流入市面而且流入市面呢而且可以不標示你覺得民眾會不恐慌嗎民眾可以有選擇權吧我可以選擇我不要吃到含有萊劑的這個豬肉吧但是在你們現行的管理辦法裡面沒有辦法"},{"start":538.906,"end":548.126,"text":"就會通通流入市面了流入到後端的加工食品廠他需不需要標示在你們現在對外的說明是不用標示"},{"start":549.574,"end":571.466,"text":"所以就混著他可以魚目混豬大家吃下去都沒有關係這個就是今天我要告訴你們的事實上食藥署是有工具有方法的我再讓你看食食品衛生管理法22條在22條第一項裡面他講了非常多的食品添加物通通都要標出來"},{"start":572.466,"end":596.783,"text":"包括基改食品也要標出來這個是立法院後來的修法因為國人對於食安的標準越來越嚴格所以我們現在買到任何的加工食品連一個飯糰你拿到背後所有的食品標示清清楚楚有什麼原料什麼成品什麼添加物一清二楚 這個是為什麼因為民眾有知的權利"},{"start":598.004,"end":624.204,"text":"但是在萊劑的這一條裡面你現在告訴大家萊劑也不用標肉品含萊劑通通都不用標那這個合理嗎請問萊劑跟基改食品他們對於人體的所造成影響跟傷害如果連營養都要標食品添加物要標含基改食品的原料要標含有萊劑就是這一項肉品裡面含有萊劑不用標嗎"},{"start":626.709,"end":642.695,"text":"豬牛其實一體適用那2493筆我們從來沒有標過的牛肉裡面我容我再提醒你你一直要把牛放進來講你是忽略了國人的食品的食用跟豬肉在國內加工食品的應用範圍"},{"start":643.775,"end":669.629,"text":"牛肉沒有豬肉那麼廣 這個是為什麼過去大家在談這個議題的時候就是牛肉它比較簡單 你只要標產地 大家就會知道但是豬肉不一樣 豬肉它的應用範圍 它做成貢丸 做成水餃 它做成滷肉飯它只要一加工之後 它就是化整圍裂整個出去了這個就是我們的國情不同 你不能一直把牛肉跟豬肉擺在一起看"},{"start":670.049,"end":685.332,"text":"牛肉在台灣很多人也不吃牛肉所以在豬肉的這個部分他應該是要採取一個更嚴格讓大家更安心的做法但是現在你對外說不公不留下其實很多人很恐慌"},{"start":686.133,"end":700.303,"text":"報告委員萊克多巴胺對一個科學家來說以及我希望我把我的食品安全以及獨立學教授我臨床醫師的觀點來帶給國人是他的化學是一樣在豬牛所有的"},{"start":701.124,"end":722.537,"text":"它的結構跟效應是一樣的 第一件事情第二個 位於臨床醫師其實職業已經30年從來沒有遇到一位萊克多巴胺的豬肉或者牛肉的到急診裡面就醫的那這個部分呢 其實我們知道所以我如何把安全經過這麼完整的視頻安全風格分析全世界的科學家共同努力台灣的這麼多人的心力之後"},{"start":723.097,"end":745.895,"text":"然後不要去告訴農業部對 進一步去做完之後呢把這個安全我希望我能夠把安全轉換成安心讓國人安心我宣誼當一個安心的署長讓大家能夠安心我希望能夠往這邊對 署長我必須告訴你現在國人不安心所以你現在當不了安心的署長因為國人的反應是最直接的那你要理學那一塊專業我尊重但是你忽略了一個在國內我們國內"},{"start":749.117,"end":769.302,"text":"的養殖我們的農業部是完全禁止以行獸體數的他是犯法的他是要被罰錢的你認為在國人的認知裡面我們的豬跟牛在養殖過程完全不准添加的東西你今天進口的裡面肉品含有這個萊克多巴胺你要我吃下肚你認為國人的認知會是什麼"},{"start":771.543,"end":797.134,"text":"所以你的專業那一套我完全尊重但是在國內你可以看到是農業部它是禁止以行獸體數的那國人的情感你要不要尊重我非常尊重我的情感一切都是國家至上人民優先的想法如果是這樣子的話我覺得你們目前為止對於萊豬的管制事實上你們有更多的工具現在是業者他自己發現進口到有萊雞的豬肉他要道歉 他要銷毀"},{"start":799.035,"end":812.586,"text":"結果我們的中央食藥署說沒有關係這個是國人沒有辦法接受就是你的標準比業者還要鬆那你有很多的管制工具之前在蘇貞昌院長的時候他們就跟肉品廠商已經達成共識了就是進口沒有萊劑的豬肉進到台灣來"},{"start":818.03,"end":821.491,"text":"而且施行這麼多年沒有破功那你今年是破功了我覺得這件事情你有很多的行政手段可以讓人民不要那麼的恐慌包括我剛剛講的逐批抽驗也是你可以做的然後源頭茶廠也是你可以做的"},{"start":835.235,"end":859.277,"text":"嚴格的把這個標示適時的去公布流向 只要它含有萊劑你有責任讓消費者知道 這個也是你可以做的這個都是我們的行政權 而且真的可以讓民眾安心也代表你衛福部在把關我覺得這些事情 部長 你們真的要考慮一個行政單位未有這麼大的權力 就是幫人民服務這個部長你回應一下好 謝謝委員 我想"},{"start":860.998,"end":866.062,"text":"所以我的指教,那我們一定是在科學的分析跟"},{"start":867.826,"end":892.125,"text":"國際的標準定出來的規定之下來力求剛剛委員提出很多的行政的措施我們利用這些行政措施來力保我們的國人真的是在死的方面能夠真的放心好 我就是要求你要回到行政院109年自己所公告的進口豬肉全方位管理措施全面的落實 這樣國人才可以心安"},{"start":892.885,"end":914.088,"text":"特別跟委員這邊做報告因為墨學之前在做食品安全特別有做食品安全風險分析以及食品安全的管理在有台大的摩克斯的課程也在這個機會給全國的擔心的民眾跟委員這邊有機會可以可以一起來去看一下我做的一系列的一些課程那對於"},{"start":915.029,"end":929.924,"text":"深刻的了解之後或許可以讓我們心更安我希望我們的風險感知 risk perception 的部分經過我們溝通之後讓大家能夠漸漸安心下來我還是希望我能夠當一個安心的署長謝謝委員好 要民眾認可才可以啦不是自己講的好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝王委員 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":331,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（9時55分）謝謝主席，我們是不是有請邱部長還有食藥署的署長？"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長，澳洲的萊豬「一萊再萊」，讓國人現在對於豬肉食品產生了恐慌，其實從2020年訂定萊豬的相關管理措施，到去年為止，豬肉儀表板上面沒有任何有萊劑的豬肉進到臺灣來，但是今年完全破功了，而且是接二連三的來。這樣子的情況，衛福部的態度其實讓大家看了覺得更不安心，因為根據署長對外的說法，來了就來了，沒有關係，這個吃一輩子也不會怎麼樣。這樣的一個說法，跟國人對於萊劑的恐慌跟不安，事實上差距非常的遙遠。面對食安標準似乎在往下走、在下降，我要讓部長跟署長看一下，現在的卓內閣不如蘇內閣，當時在109年11月26號行政院頒布了一個「進口豬肉之全方位管理措施」，當時的這個措施第一點就要求從源頭管理，沒有查廠的肉品廠不准放行、不准進口。","第一個，我就要問，請問現在進口澳洲含有萊劑的豬肉到臺灣來的這一些肉品廠，你們查廠了沒？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，剛剛署長已經有跟大家報告過，因為澳洲的進口豬肉是早年就已經經過我國行政院農委會防檢局承諾系統性的開放，所以那個時候已經同意了。"],["王委員育敏：109年11月26號行政院才頒布，沒有查廠的不准放行。"],["姜署長至剛：委員，這邊稍為補充，那是因為在109年之前行政院農委會防檢局都已經承諾系統性的開放，基於信賴保護的原則，所以很早、很早就開放。接下來如果委員有這樣子的要求或者希望，我們也可以積極來辦理。"],["王委員育敏：我要求現在針對澳洲的部分，因為已經三批都驗出有萊劑了，所以它的飼養方式、相關的豬肉廠，你們如果沒有去查廠就直接放行進來，這是有問題的。所以我的要求，第一個就是你們要先暫緩澳洲豬肉的進口，因為它是沒有經過查廠的，你要回到109年行政院所公告的，沒有查廠的，你就不准進口。你現在是沒有查廠先進口，結果發現它已經連續三批都有萊劑了，基於食安更嚴格的標準，你的行政權是可以先暫緩進口的，可不可以？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，剛才特別提到農業部防檢局其實在很久以前、在100年以前就是常態性的進口，我們基於信賴保護的原則……"],["王委員育敏：因為你現在查出它含有萊劑了。"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，全世界可以允許豬肉裡面使用萊劑的國家其實有27個國家……"],["王委員育敏：我知道，我們有我們的標準，109年行政院的標準就是這樣子，而且從109年到去年為止，包括肉品廠商沒有進口含有萊劑的肉品來到臺灣，你今天發現澳洲現在在飼養的過程中有添加萊劑，然後你們沒有去查過廠，從109年到現在從來沒有去查過廠，所以你們應該要重新啟動嘛！這個就是食藥署對於民眾食安把關的一個標準，這個有這麼難辦到嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員這邊做簡單的報告……"],["王委員育敏：可不可以去查廠？"],["姜署長至剛：對整個豬肉、牛肉管制我們是一致的，所以其實有2,493批豬肉我們都有微量檢出，這從101年……"],["王委員育敏：署長，我現在問你的是產地查廠，澳洲你到底要不要去查廠？你就告訴大家。"],["姜署長至剛：我們這邊可以進一步去做辦理，可是基於信賴保護原則，其實對於這些我們已經允許，他們國家也是同意，我們也允許相關的使用……"],["王委員育敏：好，那我要求你至少要去查廠，查廠你一定要做到，這是你食藥署應該要做的事情。","第二件事情，逐批查驗，在109年當時，行政院對國人的承諾是進口豬肉必須逐批查驗，結果到目前為止，現在2023年你們的查驗率已經下降到2%到10%了。這件事情下降的比率這麼快，現在又發現含有萊克多巴胺的肉品，你們要不要回到逐批查驗這個標準？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，就剛剛我提到的，有肉品裡面含有萊克多巴胺的，加上豬的，我們有2,493加3件，所以對於這樣子的情況，我其實很驕傲要跟委員報告一下，其實我們邊境有一個BPI……"],["王委員育敏：署長，注意你的用詞，「很驕傲」這幾個字您可能要小心。"],["姜署長至剛：抱歉，因為我們同仁很認真做了所謂的BPI，就是邊境人工智慧導入預測系統，對於沒有違規的產品，我們會降低查驗率，對於違規的產品會做精準的檢驗跟抽驗，所以我們可以跟委員報告，我們特別還是要推銷一下我們的Border Prediction Intelligent system（BPI），目前是按照比例來進行，跟委員說明。"],["王委員育敏：署長，容我提醒你，在你們的食品及相關產品輸入查驗辦法裡面，所謂要不要百分之百逐批查驗，其中有一項是查驗機關認為有必要予以逐批查驗就可以逐批查驗，在第九條；第十條的加強抽批查驗也一樣，查驗機關認為有必要的時候就可以實施。這個辦法賦予食藥署非常大的行政權，就是要你們去守護國人的食安，但是我覺得今天你們在萊克多巴胺這個議題上面，跟國人的認知差距非常的遙遠。當國人恐慌的時候，你不斷告訴國人說，吃這個是安全的，當過去都沒有萊豬進來，現在被驗出有萊劑的豬肉進口的時候，你還是覺得沒有關係，不需要提高為逐批查驗，這樣的作法，我只能告訴署長，你沒有辦法安民心。","過去你們在查一些引發食安風暴的食安事件，你們是怎麼做的？一旦發現之後，你們會提高邊境的抽驗比例，在下游你們會大幅的去稽查，就是要安民心，讓大家知道有公權力在，有中央在，所以大家安心。但是很抱歉，我必須講，這一次萊豬進來之後，你們給外界的態度是沒有關係，什麼都沒有關係，沒有採取任何行動、作為，要不要公布流向？你們說不用公布；要不要逐批查驗？你們說不須逐批查驗，那請問我們要食藥署做什麼？我們要食藥署是你要維持原來國人對於食安的標準，要給國人信心，但是你都不作為的情況底下，國人只會越來越恐慌。","過去在查蘇丹紅事件，你看你們是怎麼做的，過去食安事件你們是怎麼做的，那你現在是通通不作為，到目前為止，你沒有要改變任何的作法。所以就是澳洲含有萊劑的豬肉可以持續進口，然後現在已經到了268公噸，其中有三分之一都含有萊劑，未來不停止它進口，繼續進口，繼續流入市面，而且流入市面還可以不標示，你覺得民眾會不恐慌嗎？民眾可以有選擇權吧？我可以選擇我不要吃到含有萊劑的豬肉吧？但是在你們現行的管理辦法裡面，沒有辦法，就會通通流入市面了，流入到後端的加工食品廠，他需不需要標示？你們現在對外的說明是不用標示，所以就混著，它可以魚目混珠，大家吃下去都沒有關係。","這就是今天我要告訴你們的，事實上食藥署是有工具、有方法的，我再讓你看食品衛生管理法第二十二條，在第二十二條第一項裡面列了非常多食品添加物，通通都要標出來，包括基改食品也要標出來。這個是立法院後來的修法，因為國人對於食安的標準越來越嚴格，所以我們現在買到任何的加工食品，連一個飯糰背後所有的食品標示清清楚楚，有什麼原料、什麼成品、什麼添加物一清二楚，這是為什麼？因為民眾有知的權利。但是在萊劑的這一條裡面，你現在告訴大家萊劑也不用標，肉品含萊劑通通都不用標，這個合理嗎？請問萊劑跟基改食品對於人體所造成的影響跟傷害，如果連營養成分都要標、食品添加物要標、含基改食品的原料要標，那這一項肉品裡面含有萊劑，不用標嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：其實豬牛都一體適用，那2,493筆我們從來沒有標過牛肉裡面的萊劑，所以就豬肉的部分，我們……"],["王委員育敏：署長，容我再提醒你，你一直把牛放進來講，你是忽略了國人食品的食用跟豬肉在國內加工食品的應用範圍，牛肉沒有豬肉那麼廣，這是為什麼過去大家在談這個議題的時候，牛肉就是比較簡單，你只要標產地，大家就會知道，但是豬肉不一樣，豬肉的應用範圍太廣，它會做成貢丸、做成水餃、做成滷肉飯，只要一加工之後它就是化整為零整個出去了。因為我們的國情不同，你不能一直把牛肉跟豬肉擺在一起看，在臺灣很多人也不吃牛肉……"],["姜署長至剛：對，報告委員……"],["王委員育敏：所以在豬肉的部分，應該要採取一個更嚴格，讓大家更安心的作法，但是現在你對外說不公布流向，其實很多人很恐慌。"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，萊克多巴胺對一個科學家來說，以及我希望把我的食品安全以及毒理學教授跟臨床醫師的觀點來帶給國人的是，它的化學式是一樣的，它在豬牛裡面的結構跟效應是一樣的，這是第一件事情。第二個，我以臨床醫師身分已經執業30年，從來沒有遇到一位因食用含萊克多巴胺的豬肉或者牛肉的患者到急診就醫的，這個部分其實我們知道，所以我如何把經過這麼完整的食品安全風險的分析、全世界科學家共同努力、臺灣這麼多人的心力之後，進一步……"],["王委員育敏：署長，那你要不要去告訴農業部？"],["姜署長至剛：對，進一步去做完之後，我希望能夠把安全轉換成安心，讓國人安心，我願意當一個安心的署長讓大家能夠安心，我希望能夠往這邊來推下去。謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：但是署長，我必須告訴你，現在國人不安心，所以你現在當不了安心的署長，因為國人的反應是最直接的。你藥理學那一塊的專業我尊重，但是你忽略了一個，在國內我們國內的養殖，我們的農業部是完全禁止添加乙型受體素的，它是犯法的，它是要被罰錢的。你認為在國人的認知裡面，我們國內的豬跟牛在養殖過程完全不准添加的東西，今天在進口的肉品裡面含有萊克多巴胺，你要我吃下肚，你認為國人的認知會是什麼？"],["姜署長至剛：我希望我繼續努力。"],["王委員育敏：所以你的專業那一套，我完全尊重，但是在國內，你可以看到農業部是禁止乙型受體素的，那國人的情感你要不要尊重？"],["姜署長至剛：我非常尊重國人的情感，一切都是以國家至上、人民優先的想法來進行。"],["王委員育敏：好，如果是這樣的話，我覺得目前為止，對於萊豬的管制事實上你們有更多的工具。現在是業者自己發現進口到有萊劑的豬肉，他要道歉、他要銷毀，結果我們的中央食藥署說沒有關係，這個是國人沒有辦法接受的，就是你的標準比業者還要鬆。你有很多的管制工具，之前在蘇貞昌院長的時候就已經跟肉品廠商達成共識了，就是進口沒有萊劑的豬肉到臺灣來，而且施行這麼多年沒有破功，那你今年是破功了。","我覺得這件事情，你有很多行政手段可以讓人民不要那麼的恐慌，包括我剛剛講的逐批抽驗也是你可以做的，然後源頭查廠也是你可以做的，嚴格的把肉品的標示適時的去公布流向，只要它含有萊劑，你有責任讓消費者知道，這個也是你可以做的，這個都是我們的行政權，而且真的可以讓民眾安心，也代表你衛福部在把關。我覺得這些事情，部長，你們真的要考慮，一個行政單位握有這麼大的權力，就是幫人民服務，這個部長你回應一下。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員的指教，我們一定是在科學分析跟國際標準所定的規定之下來力求，剛剛委員提出很多的行政措施……"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會運用這些行政措施來力保，我們的國人在食的方面能夠真的放心。"],["王委員育敏：好，我就是要求你要回到行政院109年自己所公告的，進口豬肉全方位管理措施，全面的落實，這樣國人才可以心安。"],["姜署長至剛：特別跟委員這邊報告，因為末學之前在做食品安全，特別有做食品安全的風險分析以及食品安全的管理，在臺大的MOOCs（磨課師）課程，也藉這個機會給全國擔心的民眾、委員有機會可以一起去看一下我做的一系列課程，在深刻了解之後，或許可以讓我們的心更安，我希望我們風險感知（risk perception）的部分經過我們溝通之後，讓大家能夠漸漸安心下來，我還是希望我能夠當一個安心的署長，謝謝委員。"],["王委員育敏：好，要民眾認可才可以啦，不是自己講的，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員、謝謝部長，這個是兩條平行線。","請邱鎮軍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳瑩","廖偉翔","陳培瑜","李坤城","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","劉書彬","劉建國","黃國昌","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲"],"page_start":163,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「長照2.0執行情形檢討及3.0未來規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長就「澳洲進口豬腳驗出含萊克多巴胺，如何加強肉品食安查驗，讓民眾\n放心」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00004"}}},{"id":"161050","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161050","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1ac058db390288077cf7df95ebd13a46f5f5e885147c9c9bc3b970c124de97d675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:58:00 - 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花董事長有請"},{"start":12.546,"end":40.309,"text":"委員長部長早還有董事長早我想當時我們成立這個住都中心當然主要就是要推動都市內老舊建築物的重建還有強化政府主導都市更新的機制而且擴大我們執行都市更新的量能所以今年住都中心在2月12的時候有對外宣布有一個新聞稿就是中央興建首座運用預住公法的新辦的社會住宅萬華安居"},{"start":40.919,"end":70.143,"text":"那二月底預計要公開招租總共戶數有300戶有三種房型那除了套房195戶兩房的89戶三房的16戶那當然預租工法依照當時花董事長的說法是其實現在是一個比較可以節省人力而且呢又可以讓我們的工期能夠加速進行然後另外還有呢就是可以提升施工品質所以現在租屋中心也在推這個預租工法"},{"start":70.902,"end":79.051,"text":"我看到目前除了萬華安居還有新竹的中亞安居桃園的普興安居跟新竹的京城安居目前是這四個是嗎那未來會繼續推動嗎"},{"start":81.765,"end":103.594,"text":"謝謝委員的關注我想預租工法絕對是國內不管是社宅或一般民間的開發案應該要擴大推動的那我們當然希望透過社宅的推動來示範讓這些營造廠跟民間都能夠了解那後續我們預計每年至少要以兩處社宅來推動預租工法"},{"start":103.894,"end":122.804,"text":"那因為當時用預注工法主要就是覺得它可以縮短工期嘛對不對可以縮短時間我想不僅是這樣因為它其實是比較先進的營造工法對於未來台灣營造人力的短缺絕對是越來越嚴重所以說我們透過預注工法的推動希望讓預注的產業在台灣能夠擴大"},{"start":127.246,"end":144.574,"text":"當時您是說2月底就會公開遭租了那但是到目前為止都還沒有的原因是什麼其實確實我們也跟一些我們其他的今年要遭租的案子做了整體的檢討那現在預計應該在這個5月的下旬應該就會公告請問一下因為我上你們的網站看您可以看一下這個圖片4月13日就已經竣工了"},{"start":152.657,"end":169.979,"text":"那為什麼要到五月底才能招租因為你本來預計的是二月底我們竣工其實只是工程的一個階段後面還有一些最後的細節那還要申請死照等等等等那你那時候說二月底可以辦理招租現在要到五月底"},{"start":170.599,"end":187.288,"text":"因為實質上可以進入實質入住啦大概還是要到可能10月到年底才是實質可以入住所以我5月遭住其實還是來得及那你當時2月12的時候說2月要遭住那現在延宕了三個月的理由是什麼"},{"start":189.156,"end":205.24,"text":"其實我剛剛跟委員報告過實際上我們就是我們把今年預計要可能要完工了我們做了一次的整理那我們分階段因為我們有十幾個案子今年要招租因為其實對於每一個需要社會住宅大部分其實都是比較弱勢的家庭"},{"start":205.86,"end":233.486,"text":"晚一天完工晚一天遭租對他們來說他們就必須要負擔更多的租金因為他必須在外面租所以我們希望說這個部分是不是這個時間不要再延宕因為我也有聽到一種聲音就是說是不是要等到520之後要等我們的賴總統或卓院長去檢採所以才要延到5月底跟這個有關對我希望不要這樣所以希望在這邊我們可以加速的這個前進那另外就是"},{"start":234.346,"end":255.556,"text":"根據萬華安居預計要收多少租金這個其實我們跟部裡面其實都在檢討討論當中那原則上當然是以符合住戶可負擔這個標準這是一定要遵守的好 依照這個估價師的推算租金可能會超過4萬元是不是有這麼一回事"},{"start":256.516,"end":278.661,"text":"目前我想這不會發生這絕對不會發生因為依照我們目前的社會住宅的租金來說剛剛也提到其實會去需要社會住宅的這些住戶大部分都是比較弱勢他們也有這個需要所以那個租金對他們來說當然相對高低對他們來說相對重要所以目前我們大概是"},{"start":279.441,"end":304.677,"text":"這個社會住宅的租金比如說如果由估價式來估算通常是會用市場租金的七到八折雖然是低於市場行情啦但是對於在都會區來說事實上這個租金的壓力也是非常的大那相對於我們可以比較一下日本韓國跟香港他們的社會住宅租金多半是以收入能力來去估算所以計算之後大概會是我們"},{"start":305.357,"end":320.264,"text":"地區租金的四到五折所以要這邊實質上又未必是這樣其實日本的UR guide的住宅其實就是市場租金在租並沒有用市場租金的四到五折在租那另外呢台灣確實是比較好啦那日本呢你剛講韓國呢"},{"start":324.067,"end":340.067,"text":"韓國其實有很多種在這邊我想提出這問題就是希望部長跟這個董事長就是定價的部分因為既然是要幫助弱勢的團體還是希望能夠定價既然盡量符合各地的一個標準依地區別好嗎還有依他的收入"},{"start":341.434,"end":368.357,"text":"然後另外再請教一下這個部長就是我們現在台灣我們現在都市更新因為我們現在老宅大概超過30年有超過500萬戶所以現在在都市更新的這個危老都市更新其實有一點緩慢那請問部長這個是不是我們現在的這個都跟的這個在推動的時候我們是不是比較注重能不能談的成而不是關心地主跟住戶分的公不公平"},{"start":371.637,"end":390.202,"text":"在我們的都更違老條例裡面比較側重的是屬於程序上面的合乎我們的行政規範所以對於實質上就是能不能有分多少的利潤或者我們比較沒有介入也就是我們剛剛所說的要把這樣子各種不同的合建合夥甚至入股把它放到"},{"start":390.782,"end":418.605,"text":"法條裡面啊對公部門來講確實在處理上有點困難因為一般的我說一般我們的人民啊針對面對這樣的更新的時候其實他們都很多的疑問而且因為不熟悉所以比如說像我們租賃的時候有租賃定型化契約範本然後呢我們在這個預售屋的時候預售屋的定型化契約範本那我們是不是可以針對都市更新的契約也訂一個範本呢跟委員報告就是說"},{"start":419.954,"end":448.593,"text":"也就是因為在尤其是合建這個部分形態太多種那我剛剛說明就是說從早期很單純的協議合建其實延伸到最後有這個協議有這個合建分屋合建分層合建分售甚至有用入股合資或是異地的方式所以就是因為類型太多種所以在過程當中而且都純屬私人之間的一個權利交換"},{"start":449.814,"end":476.026,"text":"權力交換所以變成說所以署長的意思說要用一個這個要用一個範本去約束他們其實反而會造成因為那其實是一個參考嘛雙方的我說明一下所以為什麼過去在我們跟地方政府討論的過程當中大家比較傾向用注意事項也就是說把可能的樣態那現在有注意事項嗎用注意事項的方式提醒雙方要簽這一類的時候那現在有注意事項嗎現在雙北有"},{"start":478.027,"end":483.971,"text":"因為地方政府對這一類的法規跟處理機制不太一樣所以我們一般傾向由地方政府自己去訂比較能符合他們自己的實務上的一個運作的方式是這樣"},{"start":496.519,"end":518.854,"text":"那目前只有雙倍嘛 就代表還有很多縣市是還沒有推動對 所以我說明一下就是說我們比較不贊成修法是因為修法太剛性了反而會限制了雙方的發展那改用注意事項或者是提醒他們有所謂風險控管的時候那不管是注意事項或是其他我是認為說既然包括租屋期幾千塊的事情幾萬塊的事情就有一個定型化契約"},{"start":519.614,"end":538.509,"text":"然後我們預售戶有一個定型化機會反而是都跟這麼重要的事情牽扯的可能上千萬幾百萬的這種都目前是沒有那剛剛署長如果說的這個定型化的辦法嘛你們現在說地方的是就是注意事項是不是可以加速來去推動各縣市來這個我們有正在研議當中"},{"start":541.491,"end":549.553,"text":"那有沒有預計大概多久可以完成我想我們今年度來跟地方政府在廣為在開會大家一起來研討希望今年度可以完成好嗎是謝謝然後另外最後一個問題就是要請教一下就是因為其實我們目前就像我剛剛講的我想要都更的這些住戶或者是說我們這些相關的民眾他們其實對於市場的不管是產業啦有多少業者啦怎麼整合啦產業規模有多少"},{"start":566.557,"end":584.444,"text":"其實大家都不了解所以住都中心有沒有可能可以成立一個這樣子的共享平台讓我如果需要都更的人可以到這個平台裡去查詢到相關的資料包括比如說公司的名冊顧問庫或是跟地方政府共享的協力平台可不可以成立一個這樣的平台"},{"start":585.168,"end":613.802,"text":"包委員因為國家都督中心在都更的業務上比較是公辦都更為主所以民間的都更案原則上我們比較不會去介入和參與不是要介入參與我的意思是說成立一個這樣的平台讓我們如果有需要的民眾他可以上網去看那因為其實都督中心當時成立的目的就是希望能夠有做一些比如說是相關的分析資料收集統計分析研究規劃跟教育訓練"},{"start":615.062,"end":639.359,"text":"感謝委員 這個我們會來我們現在本來就有收集資料啦我想我們來修正我們的一些網站的資料然後推廣給所有的這個民眾來瞭解我們一樣在今年就已經都有陸陸續續在做一些修改那是不是今年年底可以完成嗎應該可以那就麻煩一下就是說我們這個讓我們一些需要用到這個更新條例的人或是需要更新的這些民眾能夠有所"},{"start":640.84,"end":655.271,"text":"徐委員那個是不是這樣子就是國土署長剛已經有提到我們是不是盡量把這些資訊能夠公開放在國土署的網站可以可以其實放在哪都沒有問題處理公辦都跟比較不太一樣其實放在哪裡都沒有問題只是主要讓大家可以看得到好謝謝徐議政委員的資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":279,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（9時58分）謝謝主席。我們請內政部劉部長，還有住都中心花董事長。"],["主席：劉部長、花董事長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員早。"],["許委員宇甄：部長早，還有董事長早。我想當時我們成立這個住都中心，當然主要是推動都市內老舊建築物的重建，還有強化政府主導都市更新的機制，而且擴大執行都市更新的量能，所以住都中心在今年2月12日的時候有對外發布一個新聞稿，就是中央興建首座運用預鑄工法興辦的社會住宅「萬華安居」，2月底預計要公開招租，總共戶數300戶，有三種房型，套房195戶、兩房89戶、三房16戶。當然依照當時花董事長的說法，預鑄工法其實比較節省人力，而且能讓工期加速進行，另外還可以提升施工品質，所以現在住都中心也在推預鑄工法。我看到目前除了「萬華安居」，還有新竹的「中雅安居」、桃園的「埔心安居」跟新竹的「金城安居」，目前是這4個，是嗎？"],["花董事長敬群：是。"],["許委員宇甄：未來會繼續推動嗎？"],["花董事長敬群：謝謝委員的關注，我想預鑄工法絕對是國內不管是社宅或一般民間的開發案應該要擴大推動的，我們當然希望透過社宅的推動來示範，讓這些營造廠跟民間都能夠了解，後續我們預計每年至少要以兩處社宅來推動預鑄工法。"],["許委員宇甄：當時用預鑄工法主要就是覺得它可以縮短工期、可以縮短時間。"],["花董事長敬群：我想不僅是這樣，它其實是比較先進的營造工法，而且未來臺灣營造人力短缺絕對是越來越嚴重，所以我們一直透過預鑄工法的推動，希望讓預鑄的產業在臺灣能夠擴大，讓未來的前景會比較好。"],["許委員宇甄：當時您說2月底就會公開招租了，但是到目前為止，都還沒有的原因是什麼？"],["花董事長敬群：跟委員報告，確實我們也跟今年要招租的其他案子做了整體的檢討，現在預計在5月下旬應該就會公告。"],["許委員宇甄：好，請問一下，我上你們的網站看，你看一下這個圖片，4月13日就已經竣工了，為什麼要到5月底才能招租？因為你本來預計的是2月底。"],["花董事長敬群：其實竣工只是工程的一個階段，後面還有一些最後的細節，還要申請使照等等，所以真正可以入住要到……"],["許委員宇甄：你那時候說2月底可以辦理招租，現在要到5月底的原因是什麼？"],["花董事長敬群：可能還是要到10月至年底才是實質可以入住，竣工……"],["許委員宇甄：我現在是指招租。"],["花董事長敬群：所以我5月招租，其實還是來得及。"],["許委員宇甄：那你當時2月12日的時候說2月要招租，現在延宕了三個月的理由是什麼？"],["花董事長敬群：我剛剛跟委員報告過，實際上我們把今年預計可能要完工的案子做了一次整理，我們分階段處理，因為我們有十幾個案子今年要招租……"],["許委員宇甄：其實需要社會住宅的大部分都是比較弱勢的家庭。"],["花董事長敬群：是。"],["許委員宇甄：晚一天完工、晚一天招租，對他們來說就必須要負擔更多的租金，因為他必須在外面租屋。"],["花董事長敬群：了解。"],["許委員宇甄：所以我們希望這個時間不要再延宕。"],["花董事長敬群：好。"],["許委員宇甄：我也有聽到一種聲音，是不是要等到520之後、要等賴總統或卓院長去剪綵，所以才要延到5月底？"],["花董事長敬群：跟這個無關。"],["許委員宇甄：對，我希望不要這樣，在這邊希望我們可以加速前進。"],["花董事長敬群：好，謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：另外，「萬華安居」預計要收多少租金？"],["花董事長敬群：其實我們跟部裡面都在討論當中，原則上然是符合住戶可負擔的標準，這是一定要遵守的。"],["許委員宇甄：好，依照估價師的推算，租金可能會超過4萬元，是不是有這麼一回事？"],["花董事長敬群：我想這不會發生。"],["許委員宇甄：這絕對不會發生？"],["花董事長敬群：這不會發生。"],["許委員宇甄：依照目前社會住宅的租金來說，剛剛也提到會需要社會住宅的這些住戶，大部分都是比較弱勢，他們也有這個需要。"],["花董事長敬群：是。"],["許委員宇甄：所以租金高低對他們相對重要。"],["花董事長敬群：了解，部長也非常關心。"],["許委員宇甄：所以目前社會住宅的租金如果由估價師來估算，通常會是市場租金的七到八折，雖然是低於市場行情，但是在都會區來說，事實上這個租金的壓力也是非常地大，相對我們可以比較日本、韓國跟香港，他們的社會住宅租金多半是以收入能力來去估算，所以計算之後，大概會是地區租金的四到五折。"],["花董事長敬群：應該不是這樣，實質上未必是這樣。"],["許委員宇甄：沒關係，董事長說明一下。"],["花董事長敬群：其實日本的UR蓋的住宅就是市場租金在租，並沒有用市場租金的四到五折在租。"],["許委員宇甄：是，另外日本呢？"],["花董事長敬群：臺灣確實是比較好。"],["許委員宇甄：日本呢？"],["花董事長敬群：我剛剛講的是日本。"],["許委員宇甄：韓國呢？"],["花董事長敬群：韓國其實有很多種。"],["許委員宇甄：我之所以提出這個問題，就是希望部長跟董事長要注意定價的部分，既然是要幫助弱勢團體，還是希望定價能夠儘量符合各地的標準，可以依地區別及收入來訂定。","另外再請教部長，現在臺灣在都市更新，因為目前超過30年的老宅大概超過500萬戶，所以現在危老都市更新的速度其實有一點緩慢。請問部長，現在在推動都更的時候，我們是不是比較注重能不能談得成，而不是關心地主跟住戶分得公不公平？"],["劉部長世芳：在我們的都更危老條例裡面，比較側重的是屬於程序上有合乎我們的行政規範，所以對於實質上分多少利潤等等，我們比較沒有介入，也就是我們剛剛所說的，要把這樣子各種不同的合建、合夥，甚至入股放到法條裡面，對於公部門來講，確實在處理上有點困難。"],["許委員宇甄：因為一般人民在面對更新的時候，其實他們都有很多的疑問，因為不熟悉。比如說，租賃的時候有租賃定型化契約範本，在預售屋的時候有預售屋定型化契約範本，我們是不是可以針對都市更新的契約也訂一個範本？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，尤其是合建這部分，型態太多種了，我剛剛說明過，從早期很單純的協議合建，衍生到最後有合建分屋、合建分成、合建分售，甚至有用入股合資或是易地的方式，就是因為類型太多種，而且都純屬私人之間的權利交換，所以變成說……"],["許委員宇甄：所以署長的意思是，要用一個……"],["吳署長欣修：要用一個範本去約束他們，其實反而會造成雙方的……"],["許委員宇甄：因為那其實是一個參考。"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，為什麼過去我們跟地方政府討論的過程當中，大家比較傾向用注意事項？也就是說，把可能的樣態用注意事項的方式提醒雙方要簽這類的時候……"],["許委員宇甄：現在有注意事項嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：現在雙北有。"],["許委員宇甄：那全國呢？"],["吳署長欣修：我們也有……"],["許委員宇甄：針對這個部分，是國土署在推動，還是地方政府自己在推動？"],["吳署長欣修：是這樣子，我們有跟地方……因為地方政府對於這一類的法規跟處理機制不太一樣，所以我們一般傾向由地方政府自己去訂，比較能符合他們自己實務上運作的方式，所以我們才會建議……"],["許委員宇甄：目前只有雙北有，就代表還有很多縣市還沒有推動，是不是可以加速這樣的推動？"],["吳署長欣修：對，所以我說明一下，我比較不贊成修法，是因為修法太剛性了，反而會限制雙方的發展，如果改用注意事項，或者是提醒他們有所謂風險控管的時候……"],["許委員宇甄：好，不管是注意事項或是其他，我是認為像租屋這種值幾千塊、幾萬塊的事情，就有一個定型化契約，然後預售屋也有一個定型化契約，反而是都更這麼重要的事情，可能會牽扯到上千萬、幾百萬的，反而目前沒有。剛剛署長說的辦法，你剛剛說地方的是……"],["吳署長欣修：注意事項。"],["許委員宇甄：對，注意事項，是不是可以加速來去推動各縣市來成立？"],["吳署長欣修：這個我們正在研擬當中。"],["許委員宇甄：大概預計多久可以完成？"],["吳署長欣修：我們今年度再跟地方政府廣為開會，大家一起來檢討。"],["許委員宇甄：希望今年度可以完成，好嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["許委員宇甄：是，謝謝。最後一個問題，就像我剛剛講的，都更的住戶或者相關的民眾，他們對於市場的產業、有多少業者、怎麼整合、產業規模有多少，其實大家都不了解，所以住都中心有沒有可能成立一個這樣子的共享平臺，讓需要都更的人可以到這個平臺去查詢到相關的資料，包括公司的名冊、顧問庫或是跟地方政府共享的協力平臺？可不可以成立一個這樣的平臺？"],["花董事長敬群：報告委員，因為國家住都中心在都更的業務上比較是以公辦都更為主，所以原則上我們比較不會去介入和參與民間的都更案，當然如果部裡面指示我們，我們就來研議。"],["許委員宇甄：不是要介入、參與，我的意思是，成立一個這樣的平臺，讓有需要的民眾可以上網去看。其實住都中心當時成立的目的就是希望做一些相關的分析、資料蒐集、統計分析、研究規劃跟教育訓練，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，我們本來就有蒐集資料，我們來修正我們一些網站的資料，然後推廣給所有的民眾來了解。"],["許委員宇甄：預計多久可以完成？"],["吳署長欣修：我們一樣在今年就已經……都有陸陸續續在做一些修改。"],["許委員宇甄：今年年底可以完成嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：應該可以。"],["許委員宇甄：那就麻煩一下，讓需要用到這個更新條例的人或是需要更新的民眾能夠有所依循。"],["劉部長世芳：許委員，是不是這樣子，就是國土署署長剛剛已經有提到，我們是不是儘量把這些資訊公開，放在國土署的網站，好嗎？"],["許委員宇甄：可以，其實放在哪都沒有問題。"],["劉部長世芳：因為住都中心是處理公辦都更，比較不太一樣。"],["許委員宇甄：其實放在哪裡都沒有問題，主要是讓大家可以看得到，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：這個我們會努力來做。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員質詢。","下一位請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":46,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-18","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","麥玉珍","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","林俊憲","徐富癸","張雅琳","吳琪銘","王鴻薇","高金素梅","邱鎮軍","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、國家住宅及都市更新中心董事長就「都市更新與危老重建之執行成效及未\n來展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「都市更新條例增訂第四十\n四條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等23人擬具「都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例\n第三條及第十一條條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案綜合詢答並處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順差然後一直持續的話那台幣的走強是可以預期嘛其實這幾年來喔台幣在周遭國家相對我們的匯率是比較強的我們的幣值也比較強嘛 對不對"},{"start":258.122,"end":267.313,"text":"我跟委員報告 就是說委員的分析是沒有錯不過就是說現在決定匯率的因素不是"},{"start":270.339,"end":296.211,"text":"不是就貿易的這個部分因為我們也就一直在就是說說明事實上現在的外匯市場我們現在外匯市場那個資金的移動這個部分所佔的比重非常高全球我就跟委員報告全球就是說資金的移動的這種金融帳的這個外匯的交易所佔的比重"},{"start":297.051,"end":324.688,"text":"超過95%以上是啦這就是我後面要說的我說正常如果以長程的理論來講是這樣但是因為因素非常的複雜在剛剛講的啊這個跟基金有關啊全世界這麼大金額的基金這麼多我舉個例子以前索羅斯曾經要來舉起台幣嘛那也是他用大量的基金來啊其實這個個人財富要去撼動匯率那是很困難的但是要有大量的基金來做這種"},{"start":325.789,"end":348.071,"text":"巨額的進入 巨額的離開之前有發生亞洲金融危機不是就是為了匯率的咀嚼而來的而是大量的金額的移動所以我覺得這次央行有注意到說對於大筆金額的移動你們有在盯也表達有盯 表達說要跟他溝通"},{"start":349.552,"end":372.865,"text":"講難題就是要請他喝咖啡嘛你來的原因是什麼你剛剛也有講到你進來如果是為了要買股票那我們不反對但是你如果進來parking在那邊大量一直進來準備要賺會差這個我們就不能同意啦對對沒有錯那個委員謝謝謝謝你在這邊來宣示這一次的問題我想到的是另外的問題"},{"start":375.186,"end":381.572,"text":"因為這次有非常大的這個預期心理不是只有基金的移動另外還有"},{"start":383.208,"end":412.45,"text":"我不知道為什麼有很多人就是對於川普完全就抱著非常懷疑非常不信任認為他做的都是壞事這樣的角度在看待事情所以他就去拿什麼海湖莊園啊什麼新台幣會升值到13.3比1啊他用大麥克指數所謂大麥克指數當然內行人知道他用大麥克指數去認為台幣的這個購買力等於是應該對美金是13.3用這樣的角度來講的話台幣一定會巨幅升值"},{"start":413.191,"end":437.167,"text":"結果就引發了群眾心理這個就某種角度類似銀行的擠兌同一個時間大家都要去領錢同一個時間大家都要去換費就還引起網路塞車我現在也想到這當然是金融網路的課題現在有網路銀行已經有三家這個問題不是只有塞車如果你在那邊流量"},{"start":438.388,"end":451.834,"text":"很大上次美國倒了幾家銀行尤其是矽谷的銀行就是同一時間大家都是因為網路的關係所有的大公司都是網路立刻把錢轉走等於是"},{"start":453.168,"end":471.377,"text":"以前擠兌還要人工去銀行分行排隊領錢你要領大量的錢你要派卡車運鈔車來載現在的網路銀行因為網路的關係我會走多少錢是根本只是一個案件的這個動作"},{"start":473.328,"end":495.141,"text":"所以我是覺得這一方面金融機構要有新的想法面對網路暢通無阻之後如果同時大量的預期心理同時去進行網路的動作的話一方面網路塞車被罵爆了我要辦 辦不到但是如果你都完全順暢的話"},{"start":496.738,"end":523.532,"text":"很可能會引起這種災難委員你的分析我非常佩服確實是這樣子就是說像美國的那個最近那個錢搬出去速度之快一樣的就是說你外匯的買賣呢一個訊息呢他就會能夠有那個羊群的那個效應大家一窩蜂的確實您的分析是非常正確的"},{"start":525.193,"end":540.624,"text":"過去台灣的外匯資料看起來緩升跟急升各有利弊緩升的最大的弊弊是有預期心理所以不會停我不知道你要緩步升到哪裡所以我每天投入都會賺"},{"start":542.085,"end":570.197,"text":"那就導致大家都每天都在玩這個就長期而言就政府就大失血而且終點在哪裡不知道緩身就緩身的困難提升的困難在哪裡呢是做這些外做這些出口的進口的他因為對於這個匯率要多少不清楚他報價很困難所以導致他短期之間的營運困難第二個困難就是說他可能他的避險成本要花很多"},{"start":571.798,"end":597.04,"text":"所以這個其實如果匯率在上漲或是下跌無論是緩跟急喔都各有利弊啦但是你們央行就是要很注意這個是不是有惡意性的人為操控譬如說要外大量的基金要來套現要來套利就要注意防止這個東西是是是沒有錯沒有錯所以我就覺得應該要讓媒體知道啊對"},{"start":598.061,"end":613.631,"text":"其實集生如果是確定進來幣的幣值假設是30點多集生不見得比返生不好如果我知道現在的幣值從33塊要升到30點多而且是慢慢升的話讓我每天進去都賺錢是 沒有錯"},{"start":615.772,"end":640.768,"text":"所以委員的這個說法我非常贊同這個也就是說為什麼我們在我們在禮拜一就5月5號的時候我們出來臨時的記者會那也非常好的就是說立法院就是財委會呢也給我們的這個機會來衝刃再次的說明再次的澄清好那就加油這個方面的控制就是對於那個"},{"start":641.99,"end":646.723,"text":"大量的資金 突然之間來突襲的我們還是要有以待之啦 小心防備"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":376,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（10時）主席，麻煩請央行楊總裁。"],["主席：有請央行楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：吳委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：總裁好。今天雖然題目是研究要成立基金與否，但是我看今天主題的焦點都在你身上，因為大家關心匯率。先講我們今天的主題，我看到你的報告裡面主張，不贊成由外匯存底撥，但有幾個方式，包括是不是可以向民間募資，或是像財政部出錢等等幾個你們列的方式。其實我覺得向民間募資是一個不錯的方法，如果大家對於政府將來成立這個專門機構的投資有信心，民間募資等於是國債，至少讓現在臺灣充沛的超額儲蓄或想要投資的金額有地方去。因為有很多人還去買美債，如果對中華民國有信心、對臺灣有信心，買臺灣國債也是一個不錯的方法，只是以前我們對於這方面國債發行的控制一直很嚴格。我覺得這也是一個不錯的方法，你的看法呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也覺得如果只有就那個debt，就是我們中央的債務占GDP的比重，以目前來看差不多是25、29%左右而已，跟其他國家比較，說實在我們的財政紀律非常嚴謹。"],["吳委員秉叡：是，這個我知道。"],["楊總裁金龍：嚴謹的意思就是，事實上財政還是有空間的。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以如果這個是專門為國發基金而向民間募資所發行的國債，如果你要算入這個債務總量，那就不一定很好用，因為在馬政府時代曾經舉借高達百分之三十八點多，你知道嗎？上限就40.7%而已，那時候剩下將近三個百分點就破表了，是近十餘年的努力之後，現在才降到百分之二十五點多的狀況。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果要走發行國債這個路子，是不是那一部分發行的公債應該不要計入總量裡面，為什麼？因為國家只是發行之後，把你的錢拿來當國發基金，他並沒有把它拿去花掉，並不是負債的觀念喔！我是覺得這樣子才會比較有空間，我是贊成這樣的方式，不過這個目前只是在研議階段。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：距離具體成案應該還要花很多的心力。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我們就回到現在的熱點上面來談匯率的問題。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果單只有兩個國家的貿易，因為匯率其實非常複雜，而且是整個世界的、跟不同國家之間的變動。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：單純就國際貿易，兩個國家之間的匯率，如果是長期的出超國，他的貨幣本來就是應該慢慢要升值。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：入超國本來就是貨幣會比較弱勢，正常狀況是這樣講。所以臺灣如果長程對美國是一直加大出超、順差，一直持續的話，那臺幣的走強是可以預期的。其實這幾年來，臺幣在周遭國家中，相對地我們的匯率是比較強的，我們的幣值也比較強，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，委員的分析沒有錯，不過現在決定匯率的因素不是只有貿易的這個部分，我們也都一直在說明，事實上，現在外匯市場資金移動所占的比重非常高，我跟委員報告，全球資金移動這種金融帳的外匯交易所占的比重超過95%。"],["吳委員秉叡：是啦，這是我後面要說的。我是說，正常如果以長程的理論來講是這樣，但是因為因素非常複雜，再加上剛剛講的，這個跟基金有關啊！全世界這麼大金額的基金這麼多，我舉一個例子，以前索羅斯曾經要來狙擊臺幣，他也是用大量的基金來啊！其實要以個人財富去撼動匯率是很困難的，而是要有大量的基金來做這種巨額的進入、巨額的離開，之前發生亞洲金融危機不就是為了匯率的狙擊而來的嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：那是大量金額的移動。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，委員說的沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我覺得這次央行有注意到，對於大筆金額的移動，你們有在盯嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：你表達有盯嘛！你表達說要跟他溝通嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對、對。"],["吳委員秉叡：講得難聽一點，就是要請他喝咖啡，問他來的原因是什麼。你剛剛也有講到，進來如果是為了要買股票，我們不反對，但是如果進來之後parking在那邊，大量一直進來，準備要賺匯差，這個我們就不能同意了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。謝謝委員在這邊宣示這件事情。"],["吳委員秉叡：這次的事情我想到的是另外的問題，因為這次有非常大的預期心理，不是只有基金的移動，另外還有……我不知道為什麼，有很多人就是對川普完全抱著非常懷疑、非常不信任的想法，認為他做的都是壞事，以這樣的角度在看待事情，所以就去拿什麼海湖莊園、新臺幣會升值到13.3比1，運用大麥克指數（總裁是內行人，當然知道什麼是大麥克指數），認為臺幣的購買力對美金等於13.3，用這樣的角度來說臺幣一定會巨幅升值，結果就引發了群眾心理，某種角度就類似銀行的擠兌，同一個時間大家都要去領錢，同一個時間大家都要去換匯，還引起網路塞車耶！這當然是金管會的課題，現在已經有3家網路銀行，這個問題不是只有塞車，如果讓它流量很大，上次美國倒了幾家銀行？尤其是矽谷的銀行，就是同一時間因為網路的關係，所有的大公司都透過網路立刻把錢轉走。以前擠兌還要人工去銀行、分行排隊領錢，領大量的錢要派卡車、運鈔車去載，現在因為網路銀行的關係，要匯走多少錢根本就是幾個按鍵的動作而已，所以我是覺得這方面金融機構要有新的想法。面對網路暢通無阻之後，如果基於大量的預期心理，同時去進行網路的動作的話，一方面網路塞車被罵爆，有人想辦卻辦不到，但是如果完全順暢的話，很可能會引起金融災難耶！"],["楊總裁金龍：委員的分析我非常佩服，確實是這樣，像美國最近錢搬出去的速度之快也是一樣，就是外匯買賣只要一個訊息就能產生羊群效應，大家一窩蜂。您的分析確實是非常正確的。"],["吳委員秉叡：從臺灣過去的外匯資料看起來，緩升和急升各有利弊，緩升最大的弊病是有預期心理，所以它不會停，因為我不知道你要緩步升到哪裡，所以我每天投入都會賺，那就導致大家每天都在玩這個，長期而言，政府就會大失血。"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：而且終點在哪裡？不知道。緩升就有緩升的困難。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：急升的困難在哪裡呢？就是這些做出口、進口的，因為對於匯率多少不清楚，他報價很困難，導致他短期之間營運困難，第二個困難就是他的避險成本可能要花很多。所以匯率的上漲、下跌，無論緩或急都各有利弊，但是你們央行就是要很注意其中是否有惡意的人為操控，譬如大量基金要來套現、要來套利，要注意防止這個東西嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是，沒有錯、沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我是覺得應該要讓媒體知道啊！其實急升如果確定新臺幣的幣值，假設是三十點多，急升不見得比緩升不好耶！如果我知道現在幣值從三十三塊要升到三十點多，而且是慢慢升的話，那我每天進去都賺錢啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯啦！所以委員的這個說法我非常贊同，這也就是為什麼我們在禮拜一（5月5日）的時候出來召開臨時記者會，同時非常好的就是，立法院財委會也給我們機會來充分地再次說明、再次澄清。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，那就加油！"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝！"],["吳委員秉叡：這方面的控制，就是對於大量資金突然之間來突襲，我們還是要有以待之、小心防備。好，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（賴委員士葆）：謝謝吳委員的質詢。","下一位請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","王世堅","林思銘","涂權吉","王鴻薇","謝龍介","陳玉珍","陳冠廷","林楚茵","翁曉玲"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、國家發展委員會\n劉主任委員鏡清、勞動部洪部長申翰、銓敘部施部長能傑就「我國如果要設立國家主權基金，中\n央銀行與政府相關基金（如四大基金等）所扮演的角色為何？」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00006"}}},{"id":"161048","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161048","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c15fb4fa871df1cd3086c15394cd5fc9015f5e885147c9c9bc13064af4447e51475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:48:54 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現在有嗎"},{"start":238.367,"end":255.823,"text":"我們目前這個部分針對訊息的部分我們還是從訊息的本身內容來判斷是不是事先是假之後我們才會去做相關的訊息是不是有假訊息這個部分還是仍然在個案我們會先去做判斷"},{"start":256.563,"end":283.134,"text":"你要怎麼判斷是不是假訊息你要怎麼判斷有窗口嗎我們其實是依照行政院當時訂的綱領那各部會根據他各自的領域去針對這個訊息判斷是否為假那你怎麼判斷是否為假可能要看具體的內容的部分涉及哪一個部會的權責那我們書發布就是會跟其他的平台業者採取合作的管道可是當時候2018的內容農場"},{"start":285.775,"end":311.1,"text":"都是針對個人都是針對政府的政策然後去污蔑 去扭曲那你怎麼判斷這個何以為真這個部分其實我們仍然還是跟各部會就是在行政院杜老師做的措施所以你還是一樣2018到現在 別人一直在精進"},{"start":312.779,"end":341.21,"text":"科技網路一直在經濟假訊息一直在經濟但是呢我們政府沒有經濟你們所回答的跟2018有什麼不同2018的內容農場那時候的嚴重程度應該你們還記憶猶新吧是不是可是現在是越來越變本加厲可是"},{"start":342.23,"end":359.323,"text":"你們束手無策啊還是以當時候的綱領啊然後辨別是否為真啊等你辨別出來你知道嗎現在的LINE現在的粉絲專頁都已經傳過好幾波連好幾波了2018當時候LINE還沒有這麼樣的發展的這麼樣的快速2018還沒有現在LINE"},{"start":370.371,"end":395.408,"text":"無遠弗屆在第一時間傳出去你怎麼收回來沒辦法收了可是人民已經很直接看到這些訊息錯誤訊息的傳遞書發部如果還是這樣的一個態度那我們請問成立書發部有什麼用有什麼用"},{"start":397.348,"end":415.96,"text":"報委員這個部分如果在技術部分我們有經濟我們也會跟資安院有共通的合作措施那這個部分可能就是我們會持續根據外面就是外在環境然後做持續上技術的經濟那另外在實質內容的判斷仍然還是要回到各部會的一個權責部處長今天在整個過程到現在"},{"start":421.044,"end":449.681,"text":"整個科技的一個展現跟它不一樣的一個轉變速度是比我們政府還快我們頭腦還沒到那裡人家早就已經作為一條龍一條鞭然後從假帳號反串攻擊甚至給假訊息等你要去辨別早在賴的群組當中已經不知穿多少破出去了你要擋要怎麼擋"},{"start":451.192,"end":469.148,"text":"然後從我們的臉書粉絲帳號也是一樣不知道你要多久啦我今天正式要求在這部分的一個假帳號的一個反傳跟廣傳"},{"start":471.879,"end":487.79,"text":"錯誤訊息的傳遞你們何時要給我們一個比較確切的處理方式窗口在哪裡否則你說要查我們連窗口都不知道在哪裡我們要怎麼查怎麼給資料沒辦法給資料啊副處長多久多久要給我們一個資料一個月"},{"start":498.521,"end":521.519,"text":"報告委員 這部分可能涉及跨部份可不可以給我們比較長一點的時間兩個月 三個月 沒關係你要多長有總比沒有好啦謝謝委員 這個部分可不可以給我們大概三個月的時間好 三個月我們研議一下這樣好 三個月再跟委員報告好 三個月麻煩 這太重要了"},{"start":523.001,"end":542.371,"text":"三個月 2018內容農場我們發現已經在 正在猖狂當中結果你們還是這樣的態度好 三個月 請你把假帳號的反串 假訊息的傳遞這個部分我們要怎麼遏止 要怎麼去做單一窗口的管理"},{"start":543.271,"end":554.742,"text":"你說各部會各部會散播在各部會無法可管單一窗口要怎麼處理三個月來我們請那個呃理事的主任來請李主任"},{"start":565.959,"end":589.415,"text":"主任我想在整個個人資料保護委員會的籌備處跟我們個人資料保護委員會這當中到底我們在打炸綱領當中要扮演什麼角色到底如果依照你講的說你們也希望你們是可以有關鍵性積極性的可是"},{"start":590.436,"end":606.584,"text":"我們看所有的資料你們現在只有在一個個資法的法律解釋跟提供各單位的個資事件的諮詢就只有這個樣子這是很被動非常被動極度被動我們個資法它是一個防詐的源頭"},{"start":613.939,"end":629.631,"text":"如果你們這麼被動我們怎麼強化保護去避免我們各自的外洩然後你要怎麼去監督各部會去作為我們各自的管理跟防範外洩很重要的一個關鍵你要怎麼變成這個角色"},{"start":630.131,"end":654.598,"text":"是 跟委員報告就是目前我們規劃的版本裡面本身我們這邊會形成一個很重要的各自保護政策的一個推進會議的這個架構那原則上就是由我們來做主導那相關中央地方的這個機關會納入在我們這個平台我們以這樣一個平台在為了規劃納入這個平台之後"},{"start":655.578,"end":677.184,"text":"那你只是給他們諮詢還是說你有強化性可以要求各單位去作為防詐的源頭去保護我們各自不要外洩然後去要求我們可以監督各個機關可以去在打詐的部分去做一個保護人民的一個堅決立場"},{"start":678.664,"end":706.187,"text":"對跟委員報告未來這一個政策推進的一個會議它不是一個諮詢它會以我們為主因為在修法裡面第一條之二的第一項就已經強烈的規定了一個很重要原則所有的中央地方各級機關都有義務要來協助整個個人資料保護的一個信賴環境的一個建置話大家都會講是是是原則大家都會定是執行呢"},{"start":706.647,"end":731.373,"text":"是 我們未來在這裡面你認為你有辦法嗎 各部會你有辦法去要求各部會去做到你們的到位打詐的一個關鍵嗎是 畢竟它是一個 未來它是一個獨立機關本身在各自法裡面所賦予給職權以及中央地方各級機關要配合的義務還是會嶄明在法律裡面"},{"start":732.546,"end":753.17,"text":"所以這一點上面我們以這樣的一個未來的政策推進的一個會議他不會淪落只是一個被動的諮詢的角色主任我要問的就是這一點今天我們在法過了之後我們到底可以給予你們什麼樣的武器你沒有武器"},{"start":756.977,"end":785.332,"text":"你要怎麼動誰要聽你的如果各部位都不聽你的你要怎麼去保護所有的人民個資現在是尚未每一樣東西只要跟個資牽扯到它是非常嚴重的事情更何況現在在打詐的一個關鍵時間為什麼一直在催促你知道這個保護法我們已經催促多久了"},{"start":787.281,"end":811.514,"text":"好不容易今天看到開始審了所以我們期望這個各自保護法給你們之後你們是有武器的 是而不是只是一個被諮詢的單位 不會 不會不會喔 你保證喔 你要保證喔你們還要訂一個執法 就是有關政策推進會議他的執法你們還要去規範如何來運作剛剛所說的這樣一個機制"},{"start":811.834,"end":833.523,"text":"今天我們這樣的質詢就是希望你要給自己非常重要的一個壓力在這個執法當中你要定到什麼樣的程度才能給你有任何保護人民各自的立場這才是重要我們把委員這個意思會在定這個執法的時候也一定會把好再麻煩是拜託謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":308,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時49分）謝謝主席，先請數發部的法制處、數位產業署及資通安全署。"],["主席：請數發部的法制處、數位產業署及資通安全署。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們今年剛好在談法，我想請教你們三位副處長，還有副組長。現在不論是在所謂的國際情勢或是國內情勢，基本上，馬上很多狀態會慢慢浮現，尤其選舉又要到了，我想請教一下，對於目前如果有假帳號、假帳號喔！假帳號反串攻擊，用所謂一條龍的方式再去做散播，請問我們現在有法源可管嗎？有嗎？如果依照數位部，有嗎？"],["吳副處長宜倫：報告委員，如果依照委員剛剛所提在打詐部分的話，我們目前的打詐條例還是針對詐欺妨害的狀況。"],["陳委員亭妃：不是打詐、不是打詐。"],["吳副處長宜倫：對，如果是有關……"],["陳委員亭妃：不是打詐，就是一般現在如果在所有的狀況，他是用假帳號反串攻擊，我們現在有法源可管嗎？"],["吳副處長宜倫：目前我們還是透過跟業者的合作來處理這方面的事情。"],["陳委員亭妃：假帳號反串等你已經跟業者合作，然後業者再傳給所有相關調查完之後回來，這所有一條龍的局勢，都已經不知道跑到哪裡去了，所以表示我們現在假帳號反串攻擊，然後再做散播，這是無法可管的，是不是？"],["吳副處長宜倫：我們目前還是要依照個案的狀況來判斷，就這樣的行為有沒有符合其他法令上的適用。"],["陳委員亭妃：如果2018年那時候非常嚴重的內容農場再現，當時候就是莫名其妙，所有中共的網軍做內容農場的生產，然後一條龍、一條鞭，整個往外擴，當時候的狀況是如此，那時候還沒有數發部，現在有了之後，還是無法可管嗎？還是無法可管嗎？"],["吳副處長宜倫：跟委員報告，這個部分在當時行政院的督導之下，其實各部會一起制定了針對訊息的「識詐、堵詐、阻詐、懲詐」相關的綱領，還是會依照這個綱領，大家再去做一個精進的措施。"],["陳委員亭妃：怎麼精進的措施？現在所有的手法是越來越厲害，他用假帳號反串，然後深入到每一個粉絲專頁裡面，比之前2018年的內容農場更厲害囉！我剛剛問數發部，你們這幾位可能比較有相關的，表示現在也是一樣沒有任何的方式，是不是？有嗎？現在有嗎？"],["吳副處長宜倫：報告委員，我們目前針對訊息的部分，還是要從訊息的本身內容來判斷是真是假之後，我們才會去做相關的……"],["陳委員亭妃：就訊息是不是怎麼樣？"],["吳副處長宜倫：是不是假訊息這個部分還是仍然在個案，我們會先去做判斷，會依照……"],["陳委員亭妃：你要怎麼判斷？是不是假訊息，你要怎麼判斷？有窗口嗎？"],["吳副處長宜倫：我們其實是依照行政院當時訂的綱領，各部會根據它各自的領域去針對這個訊息判斷是否為假，我們會再跟……"],["陳委員亭妃：你怎麼判斷是否為假？"],["吳副處長宜倫：可能要看具體內容的部分是涉及哪一個部會的權責，我們數發部是會跟其他平臺業者採取合作的管道，再儘速對這個部分提出……"],["陳委員亭妃：可是2018年當時候的內容農場都是針對個人、都是針對政府的政策，然後去污衊、去扭曲，你怎麼判斷這個何以為真？"],["吳副處長宜倫：這個部分其實我們仍然還是在行政院督導之下，跟各部會去做合作的措施。"],["陳委員亭妃：對嘛！所以你還是一樣。2018年到現在，別人一直在精進，科技網路一直在精進，假訊息一直在精進，但是我們政府沒有精進，你們所回答的跟2018年有什麼不同？2018年的內容農場，那時候的嚴重程度你們應該還記憶猶新吧？是不是？現在是越來越變本加厲，可是你們束手無策，還是以當時候的綱領，然後辨別是否為真，等你辨別出來，你知道嗎？現在的LINE及現在的粉絲專頁都已經傳過好幾波、連好幾波了，2018年LINE還沒有發展得這麼樣快速，現在LINE無遠弗屆，訊息在第一時間傳出去，你怎麼收回來？沒辦法收了，可是人民已經很直接看到錯誤訊息的傳遞，數發部如果還是這樣的態度，那請問成立數發部有什麼用？"],["吳副處長宜倫：報告委員，如果在技術部分我們有精進，我們也會跟資安院有共通的合作措施，這個部分我們會持續根據外在環境做技術的精進。另外，在實質內容的判斷仍然還是要回到各部會的權責，而去對內容做判斷。"],["陳委員亭妃：副處長，從整個過程到現在，科技的發展跟不一樣的轉變，速度比我們政府還快，我們頭腦還沒想到那裡，人家早就已經作為一條龍、一條鞭，然後從假帳號反串、攻擊，甚至給假訊息，等你要去辨別的時候，早已經在LINE的群組當中不知傳多少波出去了，你要怎麼擋？我們的臉書、粉絲帳號也是一樣。副處長，你要多久啦？我今天正式要求，有關假帳號的反串跟廣傳、錯誤訊息的傳遞，你們何時要給我們一個比較確切的處理方式？窗口在哪裡？否則你說要查，我們連窗口都不知道在哪裡，我們要怎麼查？要怎麼給出資料？沒辦法給資料啊！副處長，多久要給我們一個資料？一個月？"],["吳副處長宜倫：報告委員，這個部分可能涉及跨部會，可不可以給我們比較長一點的時間？"],["陳委員亭妃：兩個月？三個月？沒關係，你要多長嘛？有總比沒有好啦！"],["吳副處長宜倫：謝謝委員，這個部分可不可以給我們大概三個月時間？"],["陳委員亭妃：好，三個月。"],["吳副處長宜倫：我們研議一下再跟委員報告。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，三個月，麻煩！這太重要了！我們發現2018年內容農場已經非常猖狂，結果你們還是這樣的態度，好，三個月，請你把假帳號的反串、假訊息的傳遞這部分要怎麼遏止、要怎麼去做單一窗口的管理，給我們一個報告。你說各部會，各部會散播在各部會，無法可管，單一窗口要怎麼處理，三個月。","接下來請李世德主任。"],["主席：請李主任。"],["李主任世德：委員早。"],["陳委員亭妃：主任，個人資料保護委員會的籌備處跟個人資料保護委員會到底要在打詐綱領當中扮演什麼角色？如果依照你講的，你們也希望可以有關鍵性、積極性，可是我們看所有的資料，你們現在只有提供個資法的法律解釋和各單位個資事件的諮詢，就只有這個樣子，這是很被動的，非常被動！極度被動！個資法算是防詐的源頭，如果你們這麼被動，我們怎麼強化保護，去避免個資的外洩？然後你又怎麼去監督各部會去管理個資跟防範外洩？你們是很重要的一個關鍵，你要怎麼扮演這個角色？"],["李主任世德：是，跟委員報告，在目前我們規劃的版本裡面，我們本身會形成一個很重要的個資保護政策推進會議的架構，原則上就是由我們來做主導，中央、地方的相關機關會納入我們這個平台，我們以這樣一個平台……"],["陳委員亭妃：好啊，納入這個平台之後，你只是給他們諮詢，還是你有強化性，可以要求各單位作為防詐的源頭，去保護我們的個資不要外洩，然後要求、監督各個機關在打詐的部分必須要有保護人民的堅決立場？"],["李主任世德：對，跟委員報告，未來這個政策推進會議不是只有諮詢，它會以我們為主，因為在修法裡面第一條之二的第一項就已經強烈規定了一個很重要的原則，所有中央、地方各級機關都有義務要來協助個人資料保護信賴環境的建置。"],["陳委員亭妃：話大家都會講，原則大家都會訂，執行呢？"],["李主任世德：是，我們未來在這裡面……"],["陳委員亭妃：你認為你有辦法嗎？你有辦法要求各部會做到位，成為打詐的關鍵嗎？"],["李主任世德：是，畢竟未來它是一個獨立機關，本身在個資法裡面所賦予的職權，以及中央、地方各級機關要配合的義務，還是會載明在法律裡面，基於這一點，未來的政策推進會議不會淪落到只是一個被動諮詢的角色，這邊還會再訂一個子法。"],["陳委員亭妃：主任，我要問的就是這一點，今天法過了之後，我們到底可以給予你們什麼樣的武器？你沒有武器，你要怎麼動？誰要聽你的？如果各部會都不聽你的，你要怎麼去保護所有的人民？個資現在是上位，每一樣東西只要牽扯到個資，就是非常嚴重的事情。"],["李主任世德：是，了解。"],["陳委員亭妃：更何況現在在打詐的關鍵時間。為什麼我一直在催促？你知道這個保護法我們已經催促多久了？好不容易今天看到要開始審了，所以我們期望個資保護法給你們之後，你們是有武器的，而不是只是一個被諮詢的單位。"],["李主任世德：不會，不會。"],["陳委員亭妃：不會哦？你保證，你要保證喔！"],["李主任世德：是，裡面還要訂一個子法，就是有關政策推進會議，它的子法還要規範如何來運作剛剛所說的這樣一個機制。"],["陳委員亭妃：今天我們這樣的質詢，就是希望你要給自己非常重要的一個壓力，在這個子法當中，你要訂到什麼樣的程度，才能給你保護人民個資的立場，這才重要。"],["李主任世德：我們會把委員的意思在訂這個子法的時候也一定會納入。"],["陳委員亭妃：再麻煩，拜託！謝謝。"],["李主任世德：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳亭妃委員。","下一位請鄭正鈐委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-12","speakers":["蔡易餘","林岱樺","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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度所以我想請教一下有沒有儘速邀請駐台的時節包含眷屬來阿里山來參訪再一次來擴大辦理呢"},{"start":94.178,"end":112.948,"text":"如果我們一定會往這個方向來規劃那麼有的時候這個駐台的使節這個比較容易時間比較在都在這裡那麼另外說我國外的訪兵如果來台訪問那麼我們都會鼓勵他在台灣如果多留一下可以多看看那我們常提到是說這個阿里山的這個"},{"start":115.788,"end":142.655,"text":"這個阿里山跟蘭嶼這兩個是一個很好的應該要去訪問的地方那麼還有台南的這個台灣的這個最古老的那種文化傳承阿里山的這個山林之美那麼在這個蘭嶼的這個海洋之美我想這些地方我們都是希望能夠外國訪兵可以多探訪的地方之後我們一定會安排這個駐台的使節去阿里山再去"},{"start":143.775,"end":159.8,"text":"能夠去那邊看一看那麼了解台灣的這個很特別的地方配合今年這些重大的這些媒體的這些報導我覺得是可以好好的來去宣傳一波那除了這個之外那阿里山的森林鐵路也是我們台灣"},{"start":161.26,"end":182.108,"text":"這個推展世界遺產的一個重要的潛力點那當然是包含文化資產的保存法第11條之一要求政府繼續推動這個我國的世界遺產潛力點還有一些非物質文化遺產的潛力點等等的那我向外交部也來旋力協助好不好因為這個是已經不是我們嘉義我們的選區的這一個重要的一個"},{"start":182.948,"end":210.177,"text":"景觀而已他甚至是具備台灣挑戰世界遺產的潛力點那我們這些能做的我們就把它來擴大辦理好不好一定那另外就是我們今天有提到原住民族那包含原住民原民會有邀請駐台使節來參與這個座主年度的大型祭典表示說這些跟其他國家的這些原住民族也有這個交流的可能性所以這部分是不是也跟跨部會一起來協助協調"},{"start":211.377,"end":225.693,"text":"當然那麼這也是我們部長的理念我們部長才在提到就是剛才說說的總和外交那我們也把這個原民外交能夠放在這個裡面第一個是推廣我們的原住民文化他的這個豐富跟他的這個美以及對於整個台灣"},{"start":226.394,"end":252.305,"text":"文化的這個豐富多樣性的一個充實這是一個命案第二個是說那麼像我們讓這個更多的原住民參與到這樣就好像剛才昭偉所提到的那麼如果說我們在國際上面可能遇到一些困境但是從文化的角度從這個民族的角度切近我想是一個非常好的一個位置一個方向這我們就在總和的外交裡面我們都把它放在一起來思考"},{"start":254.298,"end":263.853,"text":"市長這個歐洲的勝利日是在幾月幾號歐洲的勝利日二戰的這個勝利日5月8號那今天是"},{"start":264.795,"end":293.047,"text":"今天是5月8號所以我們今天有規劃總統我規劃這個相關的活動對這是一個很重要的一個活動因為過去我們應該沒有這樣的潛力嘛對不對今年是因為是80年那麼他的意義比較重大那麼也在說說明了一個事情就是說其實這二次大戰的一個基因就是那麼侵略必敗嘛那麼這個這個各個國家那個民眾他的自發性的這個抵抗那麼我覺得這是一個意義重大的一個事情"},{"start":293.807,"end":313.148,"text":"對 意義重大的事情那中共它是長年去壟斷它二段的敘事就是他們的這種他們的敘事前把勝利歸功於是中共它自己但是事實上大家都知道在不管是整個對二次世界大戰對這個反抗極權的這一個努力來說的話基本上"},{"start":314.262,"end":334.214,"text":"中共基本上都是在後面,都是在國軍的後面嘛所以透過這種類似用我們跟這個二戰勝利八十週年的紀念活動把這個話語權拿回來對我國的敘事模式是非常重要的這個部分今天有沒有掌握大概我們會不會用什麼樣的方式去詮釋我們這個二戰勝利的意義"},{"start":336.255,"end":362.63,"text":"我們了解到今天這個總統會發表相關的演說那重新定義我們中華民國在整個二次大戰之中的一個地位尤其要再一次的提醒國際社會那麼在這個中國這塊土地上面領導這個軍民那麼去打贏了這個二次世界大戰是在這個中華民國政府的領導之下那麼中共就好像剛才委員所說的"},{"start":363.19,"end":383.957,"text":"中共從那個時候的策略都講得很清楚,最重要是要保存實力,也要跟國民黨在鬥爭,我想這個東西必須要很清楚的做。今天我們注意到習近平在去莫斯科參加二次大戰勝利日的文章也指出了,"},{"start":386.798,"end":400.937,"text":"扭曲了這個歷史第一個是說當然是中華民國領導這樣的一個二次世界大戰這個中國地區的人民的軍民的這個反抗第二個很重要的是我們跟理念相近的國家結合一起的取得了這個勝利"},{"start":401.82,"end":425.958,"text":"好 謝謝次長 另外就是說最近包含美國的這些參眾議員的這些國會議員都在強調還有包含2758號絕育文的中共的這個錯誤詮釋我覺得已經開始起到效果了 這已經有國際上面慢慢有創造出新的這個共識那過去他們想要用自己的敘事權來扭曲2758號絕育文已經有 已經被我們相當程度的來去破解了"},{"start":426.198,"end":447.193,"text":"所以這部分也請次長跟外交部來一起去把2758決定為物用物體來形成全球民主國家要聯手的一個修正錯誤認知的一個趨勢再來最後任性台灣的論述我想次長應該有看到最近的一期的經濟選是在以台灣為封面"},{"start":448.086,"end":473.008,"text":"那我要講一件事情就是說當我們講到以色列的時候我們會不會覺得說他怎麼一直都面對著這一個很多的這種周圍國家的挑戰你會覺得他是一個風險很大你就會覺得他是一個很危險的一個地方嗎還是你會覺得以色列是一個有能力面對這些挑戰有能力面對這些風險可以管理這些風險還可以運用自己的科技來去反制這些風險的一個國家"},{"start":474.571,"end":498.569,"text":"我想委員說得很正確就是說其實以色列一直被當成是一個在強靈還世的情況之下能夠那麼自詡保持自己自身的獨立那麼能夠面到任何的因應任何的挑戰包括您所說的就是總體的這個國力科技等等的這的確是台灣的模範我們也希望台灣之後會被人家看到那這也是說在這個賴總統的帶領之下"},{"start":500.951,"end":522.489,"text":"在這個內容的帶領之下我們要增加韌性台灣要增加國防要能夠全社會韌性這種種的東西我們希望讓人家知道我們是一個能夠堅持我們的國際地位堅持我們的國家主權堅持我們的民主生活方式的一個國家所以說你們要特別是外交部就必須要把這個論述講清楚"},{"start":523.109,"end":541.966,"text":"就是說我們不會否認風險的存在但我們不是一個被動等待風險的一個受害者而是一個能夠管理風險然後來去面對風險然後來去可以面對強權的時候還能夠有韌性去定謀的一個力量這個論述外交部要趕快統整好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":259,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（9時51分）請次長。"],["陳次長明祺：陳委員早。"],["陳委員冠廷：次長好。次長，最近阿里山受到國際矚目，2025年5月6號國家地理雜誌選列阿里山為臺灣五大秘境，強調雲海、日出，還有從日治時代到現在的檜木歷史文化，它說阿里山是外國旅客除了臺北之外，最值得造訪的世外桃源。2025年（今年）1月10號，紐約時報也公布2025年最值得去的52個地方，阿里山也名列第19位。2024年10月還有專文介紹阿里山神木的遺跡、高山鐵道、雲海、日出等等。最近森鐵重新啟用，包含賴清德總統，還有行政院院長都有來嘉義，一起促進觀光。我想請教一下，外交部有沒有掌握近期這些國際媒體對阿里山的正面報導？有沒有考慮邀請，過去也有過……"],["陳次長明祺：是，2017年。"],["陳委員冠廷：現在跟過去（2017年）臺灣在國際的能見度完全不一樣。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：增加很高的能見度，所以我想請教一下，有沒有儘速邀請駐臺的使節，包含眷屬來阿里山參訪，再一次擴大辦理呢？"],["陳次長明祺：我們一定會往這個方向來規劃。有的時候駐臺使節的時間比較彈性、比較容易。另外，國外的訪賓如果來臺訪問，我們也會鼓勵在臺灣多留一下可以多看看，我們常提到阿里山跟蘭嶼這兩個都是很好的、應該要去訪問的地方。包括臺南代表臺灣最古老的文化傳承、阿里山的山林之美、蘭嶼的海洋之美，這些地方我們都希望外國訪賓能夠多探訪，之後我們一定會安排駐臺的使節能夠再去阿里山看一看，了解臺灣這些很特別的地方。"],["陳委員冠廷：配合今年這些重大的媒體報導，我覺得可以好好地宣傳一波。除了這個之外，阿里山的森林鐵路也是一個臺灣推展世界遺產重要的潛力點，當然包含文化資產保存法第十一條之一，要求政府繼續推動我國的世界遺產潛力點，還有一些非物質文化遺產的潛力點等等，我希望外交部也全力協助，好不好？"],["陳次長明祺：一定。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為這已經不只是嘉義、我的選區重要的一個景觀而已，甚至是具備臺灣挑戰世界遺產的潛力點，能做的就把它擴大辦理，好不好？"],["陳次長明祺：一定。"],["陳委員冠廷：另外就是我們今天有提到原住民族，包含原民會有邀請駐臺使節參與年度的大型祭典，表示跟其他國家的原住民族也有交流的可能性，所以這部分是不是也可以跨部會一起來協助、協調？"],["陳次長明祺：當然，這也是我們部長的理念，部長才提到，就是剛才所說的總和外交，我們也希望把原民外交能夠放在裡面。第一個，是推廣原住民文化的豐富跟美，以及對於充實整個臺灣文化豐富的多樣性，這是一個面向。第二個，是讓更多的原住民參與，就好像剛才召委所提到的，很多時候我們在國際上面可能遇到一些困境，但從文化的角度、從民族的角度切進，我想是一個非常好的方向，我們都把它放在總和外交裡面一起來思考。"],["陳委員冠廷：次長，歐洲的勝利日是幾月幾號？"],["陳次長明祺：歐洲的勝利……"],["陳委員冠廷：二戰的勝利日。"],["陳次長明祺：5月8號。"],["陳委員冠廷：今天是？"],["陳次長明祺：今天是5月8號，所以今天總統有規劃相關的活動。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，這是一個很重要的活動，因為過去我們應該沒有這樣的潛力嘛，對不對？"],["陳次長明祺：因為今年是80年，它的意義比較重大。也在說明一個事情，其實二次大戰的經驗就是侵略必敗，各個國家、民眾自發性的抵抗，我覺得這是一個意義重大的事情。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，意義重大的事情。中共長年壟斷二戰的敘事，就是他們的敘事權把勝利歸功於中共自己。事實上大家都知道，不管是對二次世界大戰、對反抗極權的努力來說，中共基本上都是在國軍的後面。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以透過這種二戰勝利80週年的紀念活動，把話語權拿回來對我國的敘事模式是非常重要的。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：這個部分，今天有沒有掌握？大概我們會用怎麼樣的方式去詮釋二戰勝利的意義？"],["陳次長明祺：我們了解到今天總統會發表相關的演說，重新定義中華民國在整個二次大戰之中的地位，尤其要再一次的提醒國際社會，在中國這塊土地上面領導軍民打贏二次世界大戰是在中華民國政府的領導之下。中共就像剛才委員所說的，中共從那個時候的策略都講得很清楚，只是最重要是要保存實力，也要跟國民黨在鬥爭，我想這個東西必須要很清楚地注意。今天我們注意到習近平去莫斯科參加二次大戰勝利日，在人民日報上面的文章上面也扭曲了歷史，第一個，當然是中華民國領導二次世界大戰中國地區軍民的反抗；第二個，很重要的是我們跟理念相近的國家結合，一起取得了勝利。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝次長。另外就是說，最近包含美國參眾議院的國會議員都有一再強調，還有包含2758號決議文中共的錯誤詮釋，我覺得已經開始起到效果了，已經在國際上面慢慢創造出新的共識，過去他們想要用自己的敘事權來扭曲2758號決議文，已經被我們相當程度地破解，所以也請次長跟外交部一起把2758號決議文的誤用、誤提，形成全球民主國家要聯手修正錯誤認知的趨勢。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：最後，關於韌性臺灣的論述，我想次長應該有看到最近的一期的經濟學人是以臺灣為封面。我要講一件事情，就是說當我們講到以色列的時候，你會不會覺得他怎麼一直面對很多周圍國家的挑戰？你會覺得他風險很大？你會覺得他是一個很危險的地方嗎？還是你會覺得以色列是一個有能力面對挑戰、有能力面對風險，可以管理風險，還可以運用自己的科技去反制這些風險的國家？"],["陳次長明祺：沒有，我想委員說得很正確！其實以色列一直被當成是一個在強鄰環伺的情況之下，能夠自詡保持自身的獨立、能夠面對任何的挑戰，包括您所說的就是總體的國力、科技等等，的確是臺灣的模範。我們也希望臺灣之後會被人家看到。在賴總統帶領之下，我們要增加韌性臺灣、要增加國防、要能夠全社會韌性，這些種種的東西都是我們希望讓人家知道，我們是一個堅持國際地位、堅持國家主權、堅持民主生活方式的國家。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，所以特別是外交部就必須要把這個論述講清楚。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：就是我們不會否認風險的存在，但我們不是一個被動等待風險的受害者，而是一個能夠管理風險，面對風險、面對強權的時候，還能夠有韌性去定錨的力量，這個論述外交部要趕快統整好。"],["陳次長明祺：一定。"],["陳委員冠廷：跨部會統整好。"],["陳次長明祺：一定。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員質詢。","接下來由徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":352,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-12","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","馬文君","沈伯洋","林楚茵","王定宇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra 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我就請教剛才兩位長官都有提到好像特別是國發基金"},{"start":31.975,"end":53.813,"text":"國會你也是主張跟楊總裁講的一樣還有我們請財政部的次長一起來就是主權基金應該是政府出錢的所以國發基金其實很適合來成立主權基金這個總裁同意嗎"},{"start":56.014,"end":62.817,"text":"主權基金的規模通常都會比較大所以我們用國庫撥款跟作業營運來循環運用這一點不夠第二個就是主權基金很重要就是專業的管理經濟"},{"start":76.721,"end":106.064,"text":"所以我們的人員聘用跟薪資我們目前國發基金是要符合公務人員的任用法所以這個可能也會受限財政部啊如果這個成立因為大家現在好像一直有這個聲音說成立國家主權基金了財政部一間把它挑起來怎麼樣財政部急啊這個可能還要再討論啦基本上就是有關這個裁員的這一部分當然央行是有一些建議比如說"},{"start":107.092,"end":117.697,"text":"有財政部發債 或者是財政部出資成立 或者是財政部委託來經營等等就發行公債來講 現在目前我們的公債法規定只有兩種一種是假種公債 只是用來貼補財政收支差短"},{"start":130.603,"end":145.87,"text":"那另外一種公債是作為市場性的財源那如果是說要在成立主權基金要透過發債的方式的話那一定要透過專案的立法要充分的討論而且要取得各界的共識"},{"start":147.046,"end":172.583,"text":"對 我就問你了因為總裁一直反對這個因為現在很多人在打他主意要撥外匯存底來成立這個主權基金他強調 今天報告也強調他反對無償使用外匯存底來成立主權基金要的話就產生不你要去發債就發債你要發債你去發債政府的錢成立主權基金"},{"start":173.303,"end":192.919,"text":"國會這個金額 一個國會基金金額太少而且因為我們還講到城市部署發債也發太少了嘛這個要是多發一點也不是壞事 台灣有錢啊不是 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但是委員的口才非常好啊所以你看看你幾句話就把我想要說的就想要說出來了所以我非常謝謝你"},{"start":298.424,"end":302.325,"text":"你不要說你口才不好,你說我表達方式大家不一定滿意因為他說我結結巴巴的還有一個就說我是史詩級的結結巴巴他聽了非常害怕"},{"start":317.093,"end":326.14,"text":"所以我就說我必須要澄清這個場合來澄清啊你會不會我覺得我讓他心生害怕那這好像就是說那市場的人士一聽到我的講話大家都很害怕反而那個預期心理會更強烈沒有啊你看後面這邊反而就是整個消化了啊"},{"start":346.096,"end":369.357,"text":"你聽了那些的不管哪一個台啦其實這個部分藍綠啦你聽了很生氣是不是我也不是說很生氣因為我總覺得所以我還在說說我還必須要做一個澄清就是我們的新聞那我是要請問你你講話還是有用的啦你講話當然"},{"start":371.939,"end":384.305,"text":"講話完畢你看三十塊就穩下來也不是你講話有用啦是開心你就下手下去了啊就有調節了啊請問有沒有調節沒有調節我跟委員報告就是說疫情心理很強的時候調節是比較是必要的啊對調節是必要的但是比較沒有用但是啊你看看說讓那個價格下來了以後呢你看看我們的調節就變得非常的順利"},{"start":401.172,"end":409.339,"text":"那我問你 你是不是外界可以解讀說因為你已經出手了而且你發這麼大的脾氣大概30塊錢可以暫時穩定一段時間可以這樣講嗎"},{"start":414.65,"end":418.851,"text":"所以30塊錢應該可以穩定一段時間我沒有發那麼大的脾氣啦我只是說跟市場一個訊息就是說到此為止"},{"start":439.318,"end":445.824,"text":"我跟妳講一個東西啊我都查了資料啦我們現在外匯存底多少錢我們5800億啊5800億一天的外匯交易量多少"},{"start":459.938,"end":485.203,"text":"我們一天的外交運量 平常就是說 如果說是大概是20億到30億最多是10億啦 大概25億啦25億 要應付這個Taste of Cake啊Taste of Cake 你現在講 突運到底有沒有突運我跟委員報告就是說 我在那個5月5號的記者會 我是講就是說"},{"start":487.877,"end":510.298,"text":"那個草匯的進來 但是他parking在那邊那什麼意思所以我就說有一點類似那個什麼 類似禿鷹的那樣我警惕他 我警告他那這樣的話事實上就像委員所說的一樣的我們講了有效"},{"start":511.578,"end":528.57,"text":"他就不會堅持晃動所以最近你看看他買鈔都買了好幾百億啊就他進來就說要買股票 他就乖乖的買股票不能夠趴在那裡等著台幣升值他就說他的目的跟他所不一樣 那這不好"},{"start":534.534,"end":556.272,"text":"這個你都盯得住吧 都盯得住吧可以啊 我們可以盯得住所以總裁啊 難怪人家這樣子質疑嘛你走不走嘛 五千多 五千八百多億VS一天二三十億 對不對他如果搞怪 你馬上開始阻殺就好了"},{"start":557.273,"end":582.603,"text":"以前1997年的亞洲金融風暴彭總裁就這樣子啊這樣子接近來給我們阻殺跟他對殺就把他殺掉就好啦是啦我還是謝謝委員的鼓勵我也還是謝謝委員的建議我話還沒講完但是我要強調就是所以可見難怪外界會質疑你"},{"start":584.484,"end":590.772,"text":"過去你只要那個外匯市場只要台幣1%你大概就會去拋棄了結果這次這樣這次3%4%你動都不動難怪人家說這就是"},{"start":599.181,"end":603.763,"text":"絕對沒有美國的壓力所以說是因為美國壓力所以外資市場才會做這樣的波動 也不是是因為評論人都說美國施壓 美國一定會怎麼樣怎麼樣結果導致我們出口商還有外資都有一種"},{"start":623.032,"end":648.824,"text":"特別是我們的出口商所以我們的第六點我們就在講啊我們的第六點就要講到就是說如果說他這樣的疫情心理大家都拋的話到最後傷到的是誰他就傷到他自己啊美國即便沒有施壓啦但最少你心裡有一個壓力你自己有一個壓力因為六月份他們美國要宣布匯率操縱口"},{"start":650.989,"end":656.951,"text":"6月份要宣布這個按照道理按照正常的應該是在4月底之前不過到目前為止他還沒有他還沒有所以現在不曉得所以你講到這裡的時候就是說我今天看到媒體媒體就是說到6月底6月的時候我們會被宣布為嚴重的"},{"start":679.897,"end":701.247,"text":"匯率操縱國或是後來他標題說嚴重的匯率觀察名單沒有所謂的嚴重不嚴重觀察名單就觀察名單匯率操縱就匯率操縱沒有所謂嚴重的就好像特別對我們台灣所設立的沒有這回事那我覺得因為時間到了我就是問你確定一下"},{"start":703.359,"end":720.868,"text":"就是台灣只是被列為觀察名單絕對不會被列為操縱國對不對我們應該這麼說啦就是說按照以前的標準是那三項我們到目前呢我們就只有達到那"},{"start":722.089,"end":732.525,"text":"就經常這樣佔GDP的比重是3%那還有就是說對美國出超過150至於就是匯率的這個部分沒有他又說我們要買貨2%佔GDP的比重沒有"},{"start":737.49,"end":765.601,"text":"我只能跟最後一句話就是你在那個三趴那個洞一下子一天漲一塊錢你至少沒有出手主要就是你會擔心被列為匯率最重我都一直都一個原則美國有他的一個法定職責譬如說FED他有法定的職責台灣中英行也有法定職責"},{"start":766.761,"end":780.316,"text":"大家就不懂了啊那幾天你怎麼動都不動沒有說不動就不動沒有沒有我們還要適度調節只是說那時候的回完那時候的預期心理呢非常的非理性而且非常強就這樣子"},{"start":782.455,"end":809.173,"text":"所以你暫時非理性非理性就是那非理性不過現在就是說喔好那這樣價格下來的又他的那個戶的能量呢已經釋放了所以現在我們在超過的話就很順暢我聽你說我見你幾回了你後面那幾回我跟你講對我沒有說服力啦你五千八百億VS一天二三十億你打不過他笑死人啦我跟委員報告啦"},{"start":814.599,"end":816.723,"text":"央行的調節也是要有節制的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":261,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時46分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請央行楊總裁、國發會高副主委。"],["主席：有請楊總裁、高副主委。"],["楊總裁金龍：賴委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：兩位長官好。剛才兩位長官都有提到，特別是國發基金，國發會的主張跟楊總裁講的一樣……請財政部次長一起來。主權基金應該是政府出錢，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：由政府出錢，所以國發基金其實很適合成立主權基金，這點總裁同意嗎？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：剛才已經向顏委員說明過，第一個，因為主權基金的規模通常都比較大……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你的太小？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：對，我們用國庫撥款跟作業盈餘來循環運用，所以不夠。"],["賴委員士葆：太小。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：第二個，主權基金很重要的一點就是專業管理。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：至於人員聘用跟薪資方面，由於國發基金要符合公務人員任用法……"],["賴委員士葆：這個剛剛有講過，不用再講。"],["高副主任委員仙桂：所以這點可能也會受限。"],["賴委員士葆：我請教財政部，如果國家主權基金成立了，因為現在好像一直有這樣的聲音，所以財政部一肩挑起，如何？財政部有錢啊！"],["阮次長清華：這個可能還要再討論。有關財源這部分央行有一些建議，比如由財政部發債，或財政部出資成立，或財政部委託經營等等……"],["賴委員士葆：我請問單獨的……"],["阮次長清華：就發行公債來講，目前公債法的規定只有兩種：一種是甲種公債，只用來貼補財政收支差短；另外，乙種公債是為了作為自償財源……"],["賴委員士葆：這個沒關係……"],["阮次長清華：如果要再成立主權基金並透過發債的方式，就一定要透過專案立法，充分討論，且要取得各界共識。"],["賴委員士葆：我就問你，總裁一直反對，因為現在有很多人在打他主意，說要撥外匯存底來成立主權基金。他在今天的報告中強調，反對無償使用外匯存底來成立主權基金！要的話就請財政部發債，用政府的錢成立主權基金，畢竟光國發會的國發基金金額太少，其實以我們的情況來講，財政部發債發得太少了，要就多發一點，這也不是壞事，臺灣有錢啊！"],["阮次長清華：有關發債，我們目前就是依照公債法的規定來發債，所以剛才我講……"],["賴委員士葆：可不可以發債成立主權基金？"],["阮次長清華：發債成立主權基金的話，我剛才講過，一定要大家有共識……"],["賴委員士葆：立專法。"],["阮次長清華：因為主權基金基本上是創富基金……"],["賴委員士葆：你不用再講了，我也不是要問你。兩位請回。","總裁，你強調的幾個原則要堅守到底。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員士葆：也就是反對無償使用？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：立專法，由財政部出錢，以政府的錢成立，這些你要堅守，我們是支持你的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["賴委員士葆：不要我們支持你，結果到時候你跑掉了，你不可以這樣子！你不會跑掉吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，事實上，我們一貫的立場這一路走來都是一樣的。"],["賴委員士葆：不管行政院給你什麼壓力！你剛才講了一句話，我聽了有點不知該怎麼講。我覺得總裁是老實人、「古意人」，你剛才講一個什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：一個聲明，一個澄清。"],["賴委員士葆：我另外用白話文幫你詮釋，也就是你的表達方式也許有些人不滿意，但你很真誠、很實在，而且資料很管用，這樣對嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對！"],["賴委員士葆：對？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員是……"],["賴委員士葆：我詮釋得比你清楚？"],["楊總裁金龍：對！我就說我的口才不好，而委員口才非常好，幾句話就把我想要說的說出來了，所以非常謝謝你！"],["賴委員士葆：對不對？這樣講就好了！"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對。"],["賴委員士葆：你不要說口才不好，你要說我的表達方式大家不一定滿意。"],["楊總裁金龍：因為他說我結結巴巴，還說我是史詩級的結巴，他聽了非常害怕。我就說我要澄清，也藉這個場合來澄清。畢竟我讓他心生害怕，好像市場人士一聽到我講話大家都很害怕，反而預期心理會更強烈。沒有啊！後面反而就好了，整個都消化了。"],["賴委員士葆：你看了那些報導，不分藍綠、不管哪一台，你聽了很生氣是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也不是很生氣，因為我總覺得……"],["賴委員士葆：很不爽？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我說我必須要做澄清，就是我們的……"],["賴委員士葆：那個已經講夠了，不過你講話還是有用的！"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：你講完話，30塊就穩下來了！其實也不是你講話有用，而是你開始下手調節了。請問有沒有調節？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，預期心理很強的時候，調節是比較……"],["賴委員士葆：是必要的。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，調節是必要的……"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：但比較沒有用。"],["賴委員士葆：美國有action你就調節啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：但是價格下來以後，我們的調節就變得非常順利。"],["賴委員士葆：我問你，外界是不是可以解讀說，因為你已經出手了，而且發這麼大的脾氣，所以30塊錢大概可以暫時穩定一段時間，可以這樣講嗎？可以嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：什麼？我沒有聽清楚。"],["賴委員士葆：我剛剛說你發這麼大的脾氣，然後講話了，所以30塊錢應該可以穩定一段時間？"],["楊總裁金龍：我沒有發那麼大的脾氣，我只是跟市場傳遞一個訊息：到此為止，所以非理性的……"],["賴委員士葆：到此為止？所以就是30塊了？"],["楊總裁金龍：我是說非理性的預期到此為止。"],["賴委員士葆：總裁，我跟你講，我已經查資料了。我們現在有多少外匯存底？"],["楊總裁金龍：5,800億。"],["賴委員士葆：5,800億？那麼一天的外匯交易量是多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：平常一天的外匯交易量大概是20億到30億……"],["賴委員士葆：最多40億？"],["楊總裁金龍：大概25億。"],["賴委員士葆：25億要應付這個？a piece of cake！到底有沒有禿鷹？"],["楊總裁金龍：跟委員報告，在5月5日的記者會上我是說，炒匯的資金進來後卻parking在那邊，這什麼意思？"],["賴委員士葆：他parking進來又不買股票，你就可以叫他出去啊！你可以趕他出去！"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對，所以我說有點類似禿鷹，並緊盯他、警告他，事實上就像委員所說的，我們講了有效！"],["賴委員士葆：有效？"],["楊總裁金龍：他就不會輕舉妄動！"],["賴委員士葆：請問你有沒有請……"],["楊總裁金龍：當然，所以最近你看看他那個買超都買了好幾百億。"],["賴委員士葆：他進來說要買股票，他就乖乖地買股票。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["賴委員士葆：不能夠parking在那裡等著臺幣升值，對不對？他這樣子……"],["楊總裁金龍：就不要parking在那邊，就是他的目的跟他所說的不一樣，這樣不好。"],["賴委員士葆：這個你都盯得住吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：可以，我們可以盯得住。"],["賴委員士葆：所以總裁，難怪人家這樣子質疑，要做不做嘛！五千八百多億vs.一天二、三十億，對不對？他如果搞怪，你馬上開始狙殺就好啦！以前1997年的亞洲金融風暴，彭總裁就這樣子啊！量子基金來給我們狙殺，我們跟他對殺，就把他殺掉就好了啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦！我還是謝謝委員的……"],["賴委員士葆：對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：我還是謝謝委員的鼓勵，我也謝謝委員的建議。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，我話還沒講完，我要強調的就是，難怪外界會質疑你，過去外匯市場只要臺幣plus、minus1%，你大概就會去調節，結果這一次，一下子3%、4%，你動都不動！難怪人家說……"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！所以我就說……"],["賴委員士葆：美國壓力就在這裡……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，絕對沒有美國的壓力，有人說是因為美國的壓力，所以外匯市場才會這樣波動，也不是，其實是因為評論人都說美國施壓、美國一定會怎麼樣、怎麼樣，結果導致我們的出口商還有外資也都有一種……"],["賴委員士葆：但是……"],["楊總裁金龍：特別是我們的出口商。所以第六點我們就講到，如果這樣的預期心理，大家都拋的話，到最後傷到的是誰？還是傷到他自己，對不對？"],["賴委員士葆：對啦！好啦！美國即便沒有施壓，最少你心裡有一個壓力、你自己有一個壓力，因為6月份美國要宣布匯率操縱國，對吧？6月份要宣布。"],["楊總裁金龍：按照道理，按照他正常……"],["賴委員士葆：他每年只宣布兩次。"],["楊總裁金龍：按照正常的應該是在4月底之前，不過到目前為止還沒有，所以現在不曉得。你講到這裡，我今天也看到媒體說，到6月的時候，我們會被宣布為嚴重的匯率操縱國，或是後來他的標題就是嚴重的匯率觀察名單。其實沒有所謂的嚴重不嚴重，觀察名單就是觀察名單、匯率操縱就是匯率操縱，沒有所謂嚴重的，就好像特別對我們臺灣所設立的，沒有這回事！沒有這回事。"],["賴委員士葆：因為時間到了，我就是問你，確定一下，就是我們臺灣只是會被列為觀察名單……"],["楊總裁金龍：對啊！因為……"],["賴委員士葆：絕對不會被列為操縱國，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們應該這麼說，按照以前的標準是那三項，到目前我們只有達到就是經常帳占GDP的比重為3%，還有對美國出超超過150億，至於匯率這個部分沒有，就是說我們要買匯2%，占GDP的比重……沒有，我只能跟您報告……"],["賴委員士葆：最後一句話，就是針對那3%，那個動一下子，一天漲1塊錢，你之所以沒有出手，主要就是你會擔心被列為匯率操縱國，對吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會，我一直都是一個原則，美國有他的法定職責，譬如Fed有法定職責，臺灣中央銀行也有我們的法定職責。"],["賴委員士葆：這樣大家就不懂了，那幾天你怎麼動都不動？平常隨便就動啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我沒有說不動就不動，我們還要適度調節，只是那時候的預期心理非常地非理性，而且非常強，就是這樣子。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你戰輸非理性？"],["楊總裁金龍：就是那非理性，不過現在價格上來以後，那個負能量已經釋放了，所以現在我們操作就很順暢。"],["賴委員士葆：總裁，枉費我替你說這麼多話，你後面那一句話，說到底對我沒有說服力！你5,800億vs.一天二、三十億，你打不過他？笑死人啦！這個就是心裡有罣礙嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，央行的調節也是要有節制。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員的質詢。","接下來請吳秉叡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-11","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴惠員","郭國文","羅明才","李彥秀","李坤城","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃珊珊","王世堅","林思銘","涂權吉","王鴻薇","謝龍介","陳玉珍","陳冠廷","林楚茵","翁曉玲"],"page_start":287,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、財政部莊部長翠雲、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、國家發展委員會\n劉主任委員鏡清、勞動部洪部長申翰、銓敘部施部長能傑就「我國如果要設立國家主權基金，中\n央銀行與政府相關基金（如四大基金等）所扮演的角色為何？」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00006"}}},{"id":"161045","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161045","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1d960229fa2cd0250cf7df95ebd13a46f5f5e885147c9c9bc2f3849b7c75922ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:46:41 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但是還沒有做報告 還有做審查對 還沒有過 但是就好像都在宣傳 所以說這個部分我們是還沒過嘛對 還在審查中 但是我們就看到就是大家都在 我們內政部這邊在做宣傳"},{"start":55.684,"end":58.065,"text":"所以依據我們的危老條例門檻屋齡30年以上未老舊房屋內政部統計的屋齡資料顯示目前全國超過30年以上的房屋也有將近600萬戶"},{"start":77.58,"end":103.585,"text":"所以占全國全體住宅的60%請問截止目前各縣市已經完成都市更新還有危老重建的屋數分別為多少比較潛在的老屋的技術還有實際的推動比例為何中央是否定有具體的中長期的推動目標還有時程嗎"},{"start":109.558,"end":135.638,"text":"好 沒問題感謝委員 其實因為都更條例跟都更條例後面我們接著一個危老那到截至目前為止都更的案件大概有1200多件那危老的案件大概有4600多件那所以這一些案子其實在過去的努力當中其實速度有逐漸在加快因為我們把一些法規做修正那但是呢 我想在危老他的部分呢 因為"},{"start":136.639,"end":150.514,"text":"我們已經即將要借起時間快到那所以當然各界期待我們把危老條例再做修正跟延長這部分我們也目前已經正在研擬相關的一個草案所以這個部分我們會讓他把它"},{"start":151.696,"end":175.194,"text":"往前推但是如果是屬於在這個10成獎勵的部分我們在原來訂定的時候就希望它改成用規模獎勵那所以也就是說我們不希望過去那種規模太小的重建案還去用那麼高的容積獎勵所以在規模獎勵上面呢我們是把它納進去來取代這一個10成獎勵這個部分我想在後續的這個修法裡面我們也會把它一併來納進去"},{"start":176.836,"end":184.179,"text":"我們知道就是危老條件就是獎勵到今年五月份到齊但是目前我們有接續的政策嘛剛才你說的是政府有很多的問題但是都到齊了在想辦法展演所以不願意提前想好問題怎麼解決啦這個就是我們"},{"start":199.921,"end":206.464,"text":"想要的所以在我們的這屆期後中央是否已經是接續獎勵的機制草案嗎有了嗎還有什麼原則啊或者說有沒有說新的獎勵是否等於說危老的政策"},{"start":219.089,"end":234.675,"text":"這實質上有沒有終止這樣如何整理就是說我們整理中的案件有嗎有沒有是這樣子的一個完整的根文報告因為其實在修法要去延長的這一個部分"},{"start":235.135,"end":257.201,"text":"我們的確都在進行當中那獎勵的部分就會像我們剛剛所講的我們會是以規模獎勵為主就是原來的10成獎勵會落日取消但是規模獎勵會繼續延續這第一個第二個就是說我們也會檢討過程當中是不是還有程序可以簡化的部分這個部分我們也會在這一個修法裡面呢"},{"start":257.801,"end":272.724,"text":"來一併來提出我們希望能夠協助這一類的危老案件後面的速度能夠越來越快這一定是我們在目前正在進行的這個作業這沒有問題所以說我們希望是說真的是有解決方式啦不只是說到了再來去水到腳了再來跳這樣子的意思啦所以剛剛問的就是危老重建的制度嘛是那接下來想要請教一下我們的"},{"start":285.633,"end":308.292,"text":"都跟整合的问题目前主要的瓶颈就是说住户医院就是同诊的困难所以目前我们租同意的比例还有是否修法我们精简的制度是可能性吗或者考虑说区段同意的比例分流或者整合奖励的扎码"},{"start":309.171,"end":312.892,"text":"等這樣子的彈性的制度政府是考慮說設置的協調平台有沒有納入說第三方的調解的機制來協助就是澄清的爭議或者是降低這樣子的對抗除了願意整合以外呢為什麼我們很多的住戶不願意的主因所以部長我們署長這邊有沒有知道為什麼"},{"start":337.079,"end":363.429,"text":"了解跟委員報告啦因為其實都更案過程當中的確就像委員所講的中間會存在的資訊不對稱還有住戶的同意比例那所以我們在過程當中其實因為各縣市的量能跟形態都不一樣所以基本上我們在過程當中有鼓勵地方政府是否在整合到一定比例的時候就應該主動來介入也就是說協助譬如說你已經達到三分之二或四分之三那"},{"start":364.449,"end":386.161,"text":"政府要不要進來再做協助因為怕有時候最後一關不好送或者是還有人堅持那所以在這個過程當中地方政府的適度介入其實是有必要的第二個就是說過程當中其實也存在了很多的爭議所以我們在法規裡面都已經有訂定地方可以成立都更新的一個審議跟這個爭議協調委員會的機制去處理那所以未來在做法上"},{"start":392.484,"end":412.115,"text":"我想我們每年都有持續的檢討就是會希望地方政府是否能夠調降那個進入的時機因為地方政府都希望到八九十的時候再進入但是如果可以的話再早一點介入的話或許可以讓這些案件的通過的時間能夠再加快這個我們會來跟地方政府再來開會來檢討"},{"start":414.096,"end":433.043,"text":"謝謝署長因為我們是希望知道是主要的原因因為我們就是你講的就是你們過程的處理因為要有這些處理才能協助他們往前對我們希望說有哪一些主要的原因我們才能知道說我們也是因為民意代表我們就是幫忙溝通來問解決的問題但是你們是"},{"start":437.805,"end":453.251,"text":"行政的過程你們去處理你們去做啦我們是希望想要的是說知道的什麼主因所以我們是資訊不對稱還有就是就是有這樣的不信任感所以我們希望才導致就是意願降低嘛所以我們是有的時候就是"},{"start":455.552,"end":468.827,"text":"建商變奸商所以變成我們導致就是很多屋主被騙或者是說掛了一間類似的案件都市更新又馬上就是就是含痰的效應"},{"start":470.589,"end":485.401,"text":"挖來挖去 民眾所獲得資訊跟建商的就是有很大的落差所以我們希望的是說你要知道的原因的落實來去做溝通才不會說資訊都他太大我們務主就對我們政府沒有信任感所以才會產生就很大的問題所以我們目前就是沒有標準化也沒有說都是更新的一個"},{"start":498.548,"end":512.82,"text":"計畫的範本所以財務的模式的工具所以我們希望說這樣子的話我們是不是這也有一個是有效益的讓我們的民眾他們知道說不是任何都是透過建商"},{"start":513.26,"end":520.122,"text":"才知道要怎麼去做他們是不是可以直接就會有說比如說我們現在社區有就是更新的顧問制度對待還有就是說我們的社區醫師或者公開社區的都更諮詢師等等提供但是我們現在目前是沒有沒有完整的"},{"start":535.973,"end":555.051,"text":"让我们的个别的租屋他们真的是有一个求助管道都会透过建商来去帮忙写计划送计划等于就是他们都没有完整我们希望是有没有完整有效的范本让大家可以去做参考这个部分"},{"start":555.953,"end":583.741,"text":"好所以第二個的話我想說就是因為時間的關係我希望說我們就是希望有在22的縣市中有沒有成立就是專者就是推動的單位也有陣地這樣子的標準的考慮的機制因為我們希望說計劃掌力補助方式對我們的地方還有中央的明確的目標因為我們有很多的"},{"start":584.561,"end":613.941,"text":"我以前都是在台中中區那邊我們了解就是這樣子的老屋啊都更但是呢因為政府有這樣的好意但是呢我們的要有沒有說我們的中小企業有我們中小企業的信用保證基金但是我們有沒有可以說用一個都更金融就是都市更新融資保證的基金讓我們想要都更的人"},{"start":614.881,"end":631.646,"text":"這樣子我們政府做一個保障讓他們可以去有這個經費來可以去做我們希望說這個部分是不是可以感謝委員其實我們大概各縣市有成立相關的輔導團來做協助第二個就是說在危老的部分其實已經有所謂的"},{"start":633.039,"end":656.079,"text":"信用信保的制度那都更的部分其實過程當中很多縣市政府也都會有做類似信託的動作那所以這個部分我想我們在整個制度我們會整整體在持續的檢討那會有進一步的話會跟大會這邊再來做說明我們這邊就是要送我們的就是立院有相關這些的資訊讓我們可以做參考"},{"start":658.806,"end":668.341,"text":"因為在台中真的是要渡耕也好圍牢也好是在中期是最多的所以我們希望我們可以幫得上忙一起來去推動以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":246,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時46分）主席好，有請部長。"],["主席：劉部長，有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員早。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好。部長看一下，特別條例通過了嗎？還有預算可以大內宣？問部長一下，特別條例有過了嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：目前在大院好像是有付委，但是還沒有進行報告和審查。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以還沒有過，但是好像都已經在宣傳了，所以這個部分是還沒過，還在審查中，但是我們就看到內政部已經在宣傳了。","根據我們的危老條例門檻，屋齡30年以上為老舊房屋，內政部統計的屋齡資料顯示，目前全國超過30年以上的房屋約有將近600萬戶，占全國全體住宅的60%。請問截至目前，各縣市已經完成都市更新與危老重建的戶數分別為多少？相較於潛在老屋基數，實際推動比例為何？中央是否訂有具體的中長期推動目標和時程？"],["劉部長世芳：是不是請署長答復？"],["麥委員玉珍：好，沒問題。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員。都更條例後面接著一個危老，截至目前為止都更案件大概有一千兩百多件，危老案件大概有四千六百多件，這一些案子在過去的努力當中，其實速度有逐漸在加快，因為我們把一些法規修正了。但是我想在危老的部分，因為已經即將要屆期，時間快到了，所以各界當然期待我們把危老條例再修正跟延長。這部分我們目前正在研擬相關草案，我們會把它往前推，但是如果屬於時程獎勵的部分，我們原來訂定的時候就希望改成用規模獎勵，也就是說，我們不希望過去那種規模太小的重建案還去用那麼高的容積獎勵，所以在規模獎勵上面，我們是把它納進去取代時程獎勵，關於這個部分，我想在後續的修法，我們也會把它一併納進去。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，我們知道危老條例獎勵到今年5月份到期。"],["吳署長欣修：它是指時程獎勵。"],["麥委員玉珍：好。但是目前有接續的政策，如同剛才你說的。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：其實政府有很多的問題都是到期了再想辦法展延，不願意提前想好問題怎麼解決，這個就是我們想要說的。屆期後中央是否已經有接續獎勵機制的草案？有了嘛？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["麥委員玉珍：有什麼原則？如果沒有新的獎勵，是否等於危老政策將實質終止？要如何處理正在整合中的案件？有沒有一個完整的……"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實在修法要延長的這個部分，我們的確都在進行當中，獎勵的部分就會像我們剛剛所講的，我們會以規模獎勵為主，就是原來的時程獎勵會落日取消，但是規模獎勵會繼續延續，這第一個。第二個就是，我們也會檢討在過程當中是不是還有程序可以簡化，這個部分我們也會在修法裡面一併提出，我們希望能夠協助這一類危老案件後面的速度能夠越來越快，這一定是我們目前正在進行的作業，這沒有問題。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們希望真的有解決方式，不是時間到了才要處理，就是水到腳邊了才要跳這樣子的意思。"],["吳署長欣修：不會。"],["麥委員玉珍：剛剛問的是危老重建的制度。接下來想要請教一下有關都更整合的問題，目前主要瓶頸就是住戶意願統整困難，目前「住戶同意比例」是否有修法或精簡機制的可能性？或者考慮「區段同意比例分流」，或者整合獎勵加碼等彈性制度？政府是否考慮設置協調平臺或納入第三方調解機制協助釐清爭議，或者是降低對抗？除了意願整合困難以外，很多住戶不願意的主因是什麼？部長、署長這邊有沒有知道是為什麼？"],["吳署長欣修：了解。跟委員報告，其實都更案過程當中的確就像委員所講的，中間會存在資訊不對稱，還有住戶的同意比例，因為各縣市的量能跟型態都不一樣，所以我們在過程當中有鼓勵地方政府，是否在整合到一定比例的時候就應該主動介入，譬如說已經達到三分之二或四分之三，政府要不要進來再協助？因為有時候怕最後一關不好送，或者是還有人堅持。在這過程當中，地方政府的適度介入其實是有必要的；第二個，過程當中其實也存在很多的爭議，所以我們在法規裡面都已經有訂定地方政府可以成立都市更新審議跟爭議協調委員會的機制去處理爭議。未來在作法上，我想我們每年都有持續的檢討，希望地方政府是否能夠調降進入的時機，因為地方政府都希望到8、90的時候再進入，但是如果可以再早一點介入的話，或許可以讓這些案件通過的時間能夠再加快，這個我們會跟地方政府再來開會檢討。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝署長，因為我們希望知道主要的原因，你講的都是你們處理的過程，主要的原因……"],["吳署長欣修：因為要有這些處理，才能協助它們繼續往前。"],["麥委員玉珍：對！我們希望知道有哪些主要的原因，因為我們是民意代表，就是要來幫忙溝通解決問題。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：行政的過程由你們去處理、去做，我們希望知道什麼是主因，其實就是資訊不對稱與不信任感，所以才導致意願降低，有的時候建商變奸商，導致很多屋主被騙，或者是發生過一件類似的案件，都市更新市場又馬上產生寒蟬效應。民眾所獲得的資訊跟建商有很大的落差，所以我們希望知道原因並落實溝通，才不會因為資訊落差太大，導致屋主對政府沒有信任感，產生很大的問題。我們目前就是沒有標準化，也沒有都市更新的計畫範本、財務模擬工具等，能協助民眾了解其效益，而不是任何資訊都要透過建商才知道要怎麼去做。未來是不是可以讓民眾直接去取得資訊，比如設置「社區更新顧問制度」，如同社區醫師或公派社區都更諮詢師等等？但是目前還是沒有一個完整的求助管道提供給個別住戶，都只能透過建商幫忙寫計畫、送計畫，等於他們都沒有完整的資訊，我們希望有完整、有效的範本，讓大家可以去參考。","第二個，因為時間的關係，請問在22個縣市中有沒有成立專責推動的單位？有無最低標準與考核機制？中央是否以「計畫獎補助」的方式，讓地方提出明確的目標？","最後，因為我以前都在臺中中區服務，我們了解有很多的老屋進行都更，因為政府有這樣的好意，像中小企業有中小企業信用保證基金。我們有沒有辦法設立「都市更新融資擔保基金」，讓想要都更的人由政府做一個保障？這個部分是不是可以讓他們有經費去做？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，其實各縣市有成立相關的輔導團協助；第二個，在危老的部分，其實已經有所謂的信保制度；都更的部分，其實很多縣市政府在過程當中也都有做類似信託的動作。這個部分我想在整個制度會整體再持續的檢討，有進一步消息的話會再跟大會說明。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，再請提供立院相關的資訊，讓我們可以參考，因為在臺中不論是都更也好、危老重建也好，在中區是最多的，所以我們希望可以幫得上忙，一起來推動，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員。相關資料再請單位會後回復。","下一位我們請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":46,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-18","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","麥玉珍","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","林俊憲","徐富癸","張雅琳","吳琪銘","王鴻薇","高金素梅","邱鎮軍","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、國家住宅及都市更新中心董事長就「都市更新與危老重建之執行成效及未\n來展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「都市更新條例增訂第四十\n四條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等23人擬具「都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例\n第三條及第十一條條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案綜合詢答並處理法律提案】","agenda_id":"1144701_00001"}}},{"id":"161044","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161044","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c1557828cad76de0ffcf7df95ebd13a46f5f5e885147c9c9bca0f504e0321c6ed85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:37:05 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跟我們報告齁其實因為分擔的比例其實差距很大因為圍牢的部分齁很多都還有分擔的問題那分擔的量是蠻大的那因為我們剛剛提到這些整修的部分齁他的負擔金額是相對比較低的那所以我們是希望不一定要走到圍牢但是他如果能夠改善讓他方便住在裡面其實相對是比較好的哇 我"},{"start":155.788,"end":170.137,"text":"立你們的方向你們什麼的我不是反對我也很支持但是你也知道其實如果以這個為以你們這個老巫岩獸其實啊"},{"start":171.357,"end":199.282,"text":"比較需要的大概都是在都會區啦是整個沒有什麼他也不可能來給你申請啦所以在都會區裡面如果因為一戶他不同意他不想分攤那些啊我可能我住一樓的我幹嘛給你分攤電梯啊我也用不到這個是以前就遇到的問題了嘛以前就遇到的問題了嘛所以"},{"start":200.902,"end":221.364,"text":"我覺得啦,如果我們真的要來推這個,可能可以思考一下啦因為你真的要解決吼,這個無障礙,解決什麼的這些東西當然利益良善,但我怕,我怕你做了一年之後,你來檢討你的執行進度,哇,可能不高喔"},{"start":222.605,"end":247.095,"text":"這點我是先提醒了解委員的意思因為過程中過去的執行經驗大概就是一樓的反對是最大的所以這個部分我想我們現在是有顧問團這樣的一個做法那我們會來整合一下過去大家的經驗來看是不是有機會適度修正當然不一定說只要一戶就可以申請但是同一比例的部分我想我們可以來做檢討"},{"start":248.456,"end":275.213,"text":"可以啦,因為你也知道以前的經驗大家都知道,也不用講我就是不要,我幹嘛我用不到的我幹嘛去配合這個這個是這樣,那另外再來署長你可能也有很多食物的經驗台北、新北、桃園、台中我們如果要都更、要什麼的,條件會一樣嗎?"},{"start":277.114,"end":292.596,"text":"不一樣對嘛 一定不一樣嘛對 狀況都有不太一樣土地的價值跟你的這個基地的面積跟你的等等的所有的條件都考慮進去這一定是不一樣的條件嘛對嘛"},{"start":293.777,"end":308.532,"text":"那如果不一樣的條件我今天看了這個修法這個裡面有的人好像是會想說用一個比較像租賃比較公平的契約大家這樣子有個遵循那出發點"},{"start":310.174,"end":329.245,"text":"不能說不對啦出發點也好像是讓大家有所依循不過就沒有考慮到每個的差異性那你這樣子的話這跟租房子不一樣喔可能到時候你會不會擔心到時候所有都跟反而因為這樣卡住"},{"start":330.396,"end":344.97,"text":"感謝委員因為的確合建協議合建這件事情這麼多年來在都更條例裡面一直不太想去處理是因為他是純屬失契約之間的約定方式第二個就是說他的約定的"},{"start":345.991,"end":365.391,"text":"內容喔越來越多變越來越多變從早期的單純協議合建呃變化成有合夥有換地那有合建分屋合建分售合建分成那甚至還有跑出新的共同入股那這樣的方式的話其實變化多到讓這樣的契約其實他"},{"start":366.161,"end":389.026,"text":"在已經變成純屬私契約裡面各種不同形態的變化那很難在公部門訂定相關的法規裡面能去包含如果萬一沒有包含到的話反而會容易限制住那個案件的發展那所以在這過程當中我們也是非常謹慎就是說如果未來朝向是以目前的案例來訂定相關的注意事項"},{"start":390.146,"end":413.914,"text":"那或許對民眾來講還比較有實質上的一個協助但是如果一定去強制入法的話反而我覺得會第一個綁手綁腳第二個未來對於在如果這類案件是走到消保消保的這個部分的話反而會更不利於這一個雙方在做一個位置上的一個判讀所以這也是我們在這過程當中會相對比較謹慎"},{"start":415.667,"end":439.394,"text":"我個人反而啦如果在不涉及不涉及其他的法令的情況之下國土署你甚至可以適度的公佈人家幾個案例人家的條件的什麼什麼我跟你講這個最清楚你大家都可以有一個條件去看"},{"start":444.578,"end":457.508,"text":"這類型態通常還會涉及到個人的財務狀況所以他們才會有這麼多不同型態的變化那另外一個當然就是時間的改變是對雙方對這個實施者跟地主最大的考驗"},{"start":458.248,"end":484.287,"text":"那糾紛往往也會出現在因為時間的改變 政策的改變雙方都希望更動合約但這個就沒有辦法由公部門的法規來處理所以我們盡可能舉出不同的樣態讓實施者跟地主來做了解也希望他們在走這方面的時候呢他能夠注意到裡面的風險你可能誤會我的意思喔我抱歉喔 再借我30秒部長"},{"start":487.918,"end":507.954,"text":"我必須要講我不是要你公布他所有的這個就像你剛講的你一兩個比較這個例子然後公布這個樣態讓大家可以知道一個issue我不是要你公布他所有的東西啊對不對他們的那些一些那個我們當然不能公布但"},{"start":509.15,"end":521.024,"text":"最在乎的是他分回多少嘛是對不對最在乎嘛那如果說有幾個例子這樣子公布的話我覺得可以有所依循啊不然妳覺得這可以回去研究看看嗎"},{"start":523.14,"end":544.527,"text":"如果是屬於行政上面的部分我們給我們一點時間跟各縣市地方政府在推動都更的人把所有的樣態整理出來那如果需要有一項依循的程序或是提出一個類似指導的原則的話不要先入法那其實我們是可以同意的因為我們也是希望都更可以往前走"},{"start":545.407,"end":563.268,"text":"我的意思就是這樣啦你至少讓大家有一個你用契約定得太死了你完全沒有空間了反而會阻礙但你把這些可能的例子給大家看大家大概就會比較清楚法律什麼多少幾趴沒人看得懂啦可以嗎好謝謝謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":205,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時37分）請署長。"],["主席：請吳署長。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：部長你先休息。署長，就剛剛大家所說老宅延壽的問題，其實也有人在問，我們這個政策是好，但老宅延壽是一戶還是要一棟？"],["吳署長欣修：說明一下，它有分兩塊，因為我們希望讓老宅能夠作為……尤其老人家或小孩在無障礙空間通行最重要，不能只有在室內，而是整個公共區域的無障礙通行跟安全是首要，所以整棟改造一定需要。除此之外，如果各戶有室內修繕的必要，我們也朝向以無障礙跟安全性的設施為主進行補貼，我們做這方面是考量到整棟大樓的安全性為主。"],["張委員宏陸：署長，最主要很多市民會問，自己一戶可不可以申請？就這麼簡單的問題。"],["吳署長欣修：如果是整棟的話還是要整棟出來申請，會改善他的公共區域，因為如果只有自己室內的話其實不足。"],["張委員宏陸：不是！我知道整棟一定符合標準、整棟一定可以申請，但不一定整棟的每個人都要，如果一戶可不可以申請？"],["吳署長欣修：目前來講，我們會覺得一戶比較不符合原來希望整個公共區域安全的標準。"],["張委員宏陸：是啦，如果這樣子的話，我跟你講，這個效率可能會打折扣，真的會打折扣！我跟你講，如果要整棟都同意的話，有這種條件的房子幾乎都可以申請危老了，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實分擔的比例差距很大，因為危老的部分很多都還有分擔的問題，那個分擔的量是滿大的，而我們剛剛提到這些整修的部分，負擔金額是相對比較低的，所以我們是希望不一定要走到危老，但是他如果能夠改善、讓他方便住在裡面，其實相對是比較好的。"],["張委員宏陸：我不反對你們的方向，我也很支持，但是你也知道，如果以你們這個老屋延壽，其實比較需要的大概都是在都會區，鄉下也不可能跟你申請，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以在都會區裡面，如果因為一戶不同意、他不想分擔那些，他可能是住一樓的，他幹嘛要分攤電梯，他也用不到，這個是以前就遇到的問題了！"],["吳署長欣修：是，我了解委員的意思。"],["張委員宏陸：所以我覺得如果我們真的要來推這個，可能可以思考一下，因為你真的要解決無障礙等等這些東西，當然立意良善，但我怕你做了一年之後，你來檢討你的執行進度，哇，可能不高！這點我是先提醒。"],["吳署長欣修：了解委員的意思，因為過去的執行經驗大概就是一樓的反對最大，這部分我們現在有顧問團這樣的作法，我們會來整合一下過去大家的經驗，看是不是有機會適度修正，當然不一定只要一戶就可以申請，但是同意比例的部分我想我們可以檢討。"],["張委員宏陸：可以啦，因為你也知道以前的經驗，這個大家都知道，也不用講，他就是不要，他用不到的幹嘛去配合，這部分是這樣。","再來，署長，你可能也有很多實務的經驗，例如臺北、新北、桃園、臺中，我們如果要都更，條件會一樣嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：不一樣。"],["張委員宏陸：對，一定不一樣嘛。"],["吳署長欣修：對！狀況都不太一樣。"],["張委員宏陸：包含土地價值跟基地面積等等所有的條件都考慮進去，這一定是不一樣的條件。"],["吳署長欣修：是！"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛，如果是不一樣的條件，我今天看了這些修法內容，有的人好像想用類似租賃、比較公平的契約，讓大家有個遵循，出發點不能說不對，出發點是要讓大家有所依循，不過就沒有考慮到個別的差異性。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員宏陸：這跟租房子不一樣，你會不會擔心到時候所有的都更反而因為這樣卡住？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，的確關於協議合建這件事情，這麼多年來在都更條例裡面一直不太想去處理，因為它是純屬私契約之間的約定方式；第二個就是它的約定內容越來越多變，從早期的單純協議合建，變化成有合夥、有換地、有合建分屋、合建分售、合建分成，甚至還有跑出新的共同入股，這樣的方式變化多到讓這樣的契約已經變成純屬私契約裡面各種不同型態的變化，很難在公部門訂定的相關法規裡面去包含，萬一沒有包含到的話，反而容易限制住那個案件的發展。所以在這過程當中，我們也是非常謹慎，如果未來朝向以目前的案例訂定相關的注意事項，或許對民眾來講，還比較有實質上的協助，但是如果強制入法的話，反而我覺得第一個會綁手綁腳；第二個，未來如果這類案件走到消保這個部分的話，反而會更不利於雙方做位置上的判讀，所以這也是我們在這過程當中相對會比較謹慎。"],["張委員宏陸：我個人反而認為，如果在不涉及個資、不涉及其他法令的情況之下，國土署甚至可以適度公布幾個案例，人家的條件等等。我跟你講，這個最清楚，大家都可以去看到這些條件，你覺得呢？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為這類型態通常還會涉及到個人的財務狀況，所以它們才會有這麼多不同型態的變化。另外一個當然就是時間的改變是對實施者跟地主最大的考驗，糾紛往往也會出現在因為時間的改變、政策的改變，雙方都希望更動合約，但這個就沒有辦法由公部門的法規處理。所以我們盡可能舉出不同的樣態，讓實施者跟地主了解，也希望他們在走這方面的時候能夠注意到裡面的風險。"],["張委員宏陸：不，你可能誤會我的意思。不好意思，再借我30秒。","部長，我必須要講，我不是要你公布所有的內容，就像你剛剛講的，就是一、兩個例子，然後公布這個樣態，讓大家可以知道、有個依循，我不是要你公布他所有的東西啊！他們一些狀況當然不能公布，但最在乎的是他分回多少嘛！對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員宏陸：最在乎嘛！如果有幾個例子這樣公布的話，我覺得可以有所依循啊！部長，你覺得這可以回去研究看看嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：如果是屬於行政上的部分，給我們一點時間跟各縣市地方政府在推動都更的人，把所有的樣態整理出來，如果需要有這樣依循的程序，或是提出一個類似指導的原則，不要先入法，其實我們是可以同意的，因為我們也是希望都更可以往前走。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我的意思就是這樣啦！至少讓大家有一個依循，用契約訂得太死，完全沒有空間，反而會阻礙。把這些可能的例子給大家看，大家大概就會比較清楚，法律什麼、多少、百分之幾，沒人看得懂啦！可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：好，我們來改進，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸召委。","下一位請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":46,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-18","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","麥玉珍","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","林俊憲","徐富癸","張雅琳","吳琪銘","王鴻薇","高金素梅","邱鎮軍","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、國家住宅及都市更新中心董事長就「都市更新與危老重建之執行成效及未\n來展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「都市更新條例增訂第四十\n四條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等23人擬具「都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例\n第三條及第十一條條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案綜合詢答並處理法律提案】","agenda_id":"1144701_00001"}}},{"id":"161043","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161043","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c137e1b2a7b56023e6cf7df95ebd13a46f5f5e885147c9c9bcbfcdbd1d32fe68635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:24:28 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部長好 署長好好 今天要討論的是這個都市更新跟危老重建的相關的議題那剛剛公安部長有特別提到在這個內政部在明年度即將推動老宅延壽計畫這是一個新的計畫我覺得非常好"},{"start":33.797,"end":53.807,"text":"主要是為了讓民眾修善房屋公共區域以及室內空間提供補助以及未來會結合衛福部長照3.0讓長者在宅安心養老那我們也可以看到齁最近的這個新聞稿齁我放在桌上我去拿一下時間暫停一下抱歉時間暫停資料太多了好謝謝主席齁"},{"start":63.476,"end":91.481,"text":"那我們在這個內政部在3月5號的新聞稿裡面更明確的講出內政部在今年2月的時候的記者會宣布要全新的一個政策叫做老屋顏色計劃針對30年以上四到六樓的房子初步提供全面的這個住宅提供室內外的修繕經費包含管線更新建物立體立面修繕就是我們俗稱的拉皮"},{"start":94.102,"end":118.982,"text":"屋頂防水增設電梯增加無障礙設施等等補助上限是50%屆時想要延長我們建屋的使用年限我覺得這些都非常利益良善那這個內容其實剛剛部長有特別提到內政部會與這屆持續溝通在內容完備以後會請行政院核定必據執行那現在的狀況來講應該是還在研議當中"},{"start":121.912,"end":142.663,"text":"那可是我們現在因為看到因為川普的關稅政策我們編列了一個4100億的一個特別預算我們看到裡面的老宅修繕這個部分的就是內政部現在還在研議的這個部分有規劃了50億鎖定了500棟的老舊集合住宅來去做這樣子的一個補助"},{"start":144.11,"end":161.238,"text":"現在我先跟部長報告這個計劃因為我相信這個4100億的現在特別預算這個三個黨都有提出版本那本黨現在也是支持這樣老於年瘦的一個部分不過因為這個計劃原本是在115年要來推的這個計劃不管是放在公務預算公建計劃還是放在基金裡面"},{"start":162.719,"end":185.637,"text":"那現在是要把它提早列為特別預算裡面那所以等一下要請教部長就是說是不是因為特別預算會有一個急迫性或是一個特別必要性那是不是就是在內政部裡面已經有準備好了要把它放在特別預算的裡面嗎那民眾可以來運用的時候它的整體的計畫你們是不是已經整個都已經規劃好了請部長回答"},{"start":187.378,"end":190.381,"text":"謝謝張委員的關心也非常謝謝張委員的支持確實沒有錯我們在跟國發會請議的時候有提到老宅延壽原先是要放到115年開始的年度預算但是後來因為國發會他也發布了現在我們台灣已經進入超高齡的社會"},{"start":205.976,"end":233.399,"text":"那我們也提到就是有關社宅的部分社宅在請這個老人家自己在搬出去到社宅的時候他們不願意離開原來的這個生活區域所以我們就提到老宅延壽這樣子的一個概念那獲得各界的支持因為我們跟相關的公會跟單位都有進行過這方面的溝通那所以現在老宅延壽牽涉到三個面向第一個就是我們自己在內政部裡面有關於建築物本體是否安全可以做這個老宅延壽的工程"},{"start":234.54,"end":258.4,"text":"第二個就是衛福部因為他們在長照3.0的時候也要照顧老人家所以老人家在居家裡面的修繕室內修繕也會列入是屬於這個老宅延壽裡面重要的一部分那再來就是有關於老宅延壽也會牽涉到我們因應氣候變遷的節能減碳譬如說老宅有老的電線那個地方一定是非常耗電然後也非常危險性會提高"},{"start":259.281,"end":286.467,"text":"所以我們是這個三項一起進行的時候呢行政院認為可以列入這次的特別預算所以給予50億元這樣子的Quota讓內政部跟其他部位來解釋的確啦因為這4100億原本是因應寬普的關稅政策那剛剛在部長解釋雖然說跟寬普的關稅政策的相連性不是那麼的高可是因為現在其實台灣社會因為老宅比較多是有需要的所以部長的解釋是OK不過現在要請教部長的就是說因為是列在特別的預算"},{"start":287.367,"end":303.168,"text":"那剛剛我剛有特別跟您報告過在115年的時候補助上限以每一個民眾來講補助上限是50%那請教一下在特別預算的裡面因為過去在特別預算裡面如果申請補助的時候補助的上限都是100%"},{"start":304.449,"end":325.548,"text":"就我的了解是不是都百分之百那這樣子的補助會不會有一個這個網內互打的一個問題就是我去申請特別預算的時候補助會提較高那我去115年申請公務預算的時候補助只有50%這樣子的落差還有裡面中間的還有等一下還有請教這是補助預算的一個部分先來做請教等一下再做細項的部分來去做請教"},{"start":326.549,"end":332.671,"text":"其實我們有設算 這兩者之間應該不會有矛盾內容詳細大概補助的金額的比例大概是怎麼樣我們會定高限其實要不要50%不是特別預算會多少不是說明一下 因為它過程當中是會有發包的問題"},{"start":349.858,"end":378.321,"text":"所以我們現在在訂立這一個部分的時候我們大概會區分為公共區域跟市內區域來做不同的設算比例設算因為公共區域是屬於整棟大樓要共有所以它會有所謂是不是屬於公共發包的問題那但是市內修繕的部分它屬於個案申請的部分那是可以作為調整的所以這個部分我們會有做好比較詳細的設算以後也會跟行政院做報告所以它是可以允許不同比例"},{"start":378.781,"end":397.299,"text":"所以我的意思是說會不會在115年的時候老屋延壽計畫因為這是115年老屋延壽計畫你們的新聞稿說補助上限就50%那現在在特別預算的裡面因為特別預算是比較寬鬆的允許有不同射算所以有不同射算所以民眾會不會申請特別預算的時候的補助會比較高"},{"start":397.619,"end":417.34,"text":"比較多會不會有這樣的問題是有可能所以這邊就是我要請署長跟部長去了解的那這樣子的話大家都會趕著去申請特別預算那特別預算有個特別的點是在116年的12月31號到期所以變成說可能就是說那這樣我們的公務預算可能就會兩邊會有一個差異就民眾會覺得說用特別預算的話"},{"start":418.081,"end":432.036,"text":"可能補助比較多就一股大家就是申請特別預算那公務預算的部分就可能沒有人申請那這樣會造成這個內政部在編列預算的時候會使用這個執行率會稍微較差一點所以這邊提醒署長一下好不好那這第二個問題就是說"},{"start":433.772,"end":459.357,"text":"老屋老宅延售這個計畫非常的好那可是過去民眾都知道就是說在一些比較舊型社區的部分過去政府的一些補助就是比如說外牆拉皮或是一些電梯等等的一個部分那我請教說以項目來講會不會過去的一些我們有一些老屋拉皮或是電梯跟現在我們新的這個全新的這個老屋老宅延售的部分"},{"start":460.057,"end":485.462,"text":"他的申請的項目是不是有些重複那未來內政部或國土署這邊是不是可以做一個區分跟我們報告最主要他是因為程序上不同他程序上就有點像現在的都更裡面有分都更跟危老兩種制度一樣那第一個對象不同因為我們大概是四到六樓他比較沒有內政疑慮的那第二個就是說他是不一定要經過管委會的"},{"start":485.902,"end":504.493,"text":"那都更整委他是必須要透過管委會所以他相對是規模比較大那這種是允許小規模的可能他是十幾戶或甚至只有八戶那這樣的方式其實是可以加速他來申請那第三個就是說內容上其實對這一個特別條例來講他可以整修的項目範圍更廣"},{"start":506.094,"end":530.333,"text":"好 我要解釋過去擴大範圍嘛那同一比例是不是 比如說未來使用老屋顏色同一比例是不是要百分之百以一整棟樓來講 同一比例大概多少大概百分之百嘛 所以應該還是有它的困難不過我很樂見 不管是內政部或國土署放寬未來老屋整修的一個整個範圍那過去其實大家也說嘛 很多公共空間比如說連燈都沒有辦法"},{"start":530.993,"end":559.852,"text":"都燈都是不亮的其實這些都有機會納入整個未來的整個範圍內是好謝謝那我本席是樂見這樣子的一個測試那最後的問題就是再請教一下因為剛剛也講特別提到零四零三大地震那已經從去年已經發生了一年那請教部長跟署長有沒有統計之前被列成紅單跟黃單的部分現在整個的處理進度如何是不是還算很多的房子"},{"start":561.222,"end":578.818,"text":"想要重建或是現在很多的住戶因為已經被列成紅單跟黃單不管是他的所持有的財產的資產的價值減損那現在也沒有辦法住在裡面這等問題那現在這樣子的問題是不是你們統計還有多少那未來你們會考慮要怎麼樣解決這些這些受災戶"},{"start":579.699,"end":607.715,"text":"了解 感謝委員其實在因為本部大概專注在處理花蓮的部分花蓮目前大概都有進入程序當中不管他是走耐震補強或者是走重建的部分都有進入到程序了那我知道現在在新北那又或在桃園因為住戶意見整合的過程當中有比較辛苦所以縣市政府都很努力但是也有卡到意見整合的這個部分"},{"start":608.175,"end":630.435,"text":"你們有沒有想說剛剛有說當然我是一個大家可以討論剛剛有提到特別的要公辦督工不知道是不是一個很好的方式那在其他縣市是不是慢慢有機會就是說政府怎麼樣去協助有沒有一些考量這個部分我想我們來了解一下看雙北就是新北跟桃園看它目前的過往當中大致上有遇到什麼樣的問題那我們看來了解看看是不是要"},{"start":631.393,"end":654.318,"text":"能夠給予一些協助主席最後一個問題就是我常跟部長跟署長建議跟拜託的因為因應0403大地震之後其實很多的房子尤其台灣很多的年紀比較已經三四十年以上的屋齡的房子非常的多我一直在討論像現在這樣的特別條例特別的預算"},{"start":654.878,"end":680.923,"text":"或是未來的整個的公務預算是不是有可能加入一些老屋建檢一些初檢的一個方式來把它擴大就是說我不知道我的房子未來這個比如說四層樓五層樓六層樓的老宅未來能不能因應幾級的地震那比如說我的房子我可以來跟政府單位申請這個老屋建檢的一些補助然後未來可以知道說我的房子現在未來的狀況怎麼樣讓整個"},{"start":683.864,"end":706.863,"text":"跟委員報告啦 其實我們現在就有這樣的一個制度啦 因為那每年大家編入多少預算 民眾好不好申請我們其實都是受理 然後每年額度其實都夠那但是目前來講 全台灣申請大概只有接近兩萬件兩萬件 因為大概出品的部分大概是一萬二到一萬五那當然普遍 可能會是有些民眾會擔心 會"},{"start":709.885,"end":726.779,"text":"建檢出來的結果如果不理想的話很可能會影響自己的房屋價值那所以我們到目前編列有預算但是事實上申請的數量沒有很多那署長這邊未來要推廣嗎還是說未來總不能說每次遇到地震以後在這些受災戶都很辛苦"},{"start":727.119,"end":747.999,"text":"根文報告我們在做老宅延壽這個案子的時候其實同步也是在做這個健檢也就是說他有耐震的出品出品這個部分都有納入一起來實施所以民眾若有興趣的話其實都來申請我想我們都會所以在做老宅健檢的時候意思就是說你們會推廣就是老屋健檢好謝謝部長署長謝謝謝謝張志倫委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":157,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時24分）謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員大家早。有請劉世芳部長跟吳欣修署長，謝謝。"],["主席：劉部長、吳署長，有請。"],["劉部長世芳：張委員早。"],["張委員智倫：部長好，署長好。今天要討論的是都市更新跟危老重建的相關議題。剛剛部長有特別提到，內政部在明年度即將推動老宅延壽計畫，這是一個新的計畫，我覺得非常好，主要是為了讓民眾修繕房屋公共區域及室內空間，提供補助，以及未來會結合衛福部長照3.0，讓長者在宅安心養老。我們也可以看到最近內政部在3月5號的新聞稿裡面更明確提到，內政部在今年2月的記者會宣布一個全新的政策，叫做老屋延壽計畫，針對30年以上4到6樓的房子提供室內外全面的修繕經費，包含管線更新、建物立面修繕，就是我們俗稱的拉皮，還有屋頂防水、增設電梯、增加無障礙設施等等，補助上限是50%，藉此延長建物的使用年限，我覺得這些都非常地立意良善。有關於這些內容，其實剛剛部長有特別提到，內政部會與各界持續溝通，在內容完備以後會請行政院核定，並據以執行。以現在的狀況來講，應該是還在研議當中，可是現在因為川普的關稅政策，政府編列了一個4,100億的特別預算，我們看到裡面的老宅修繕這個部分，就是內政部現在還在研議的這個部分，有規劃了50億，鎖定500棟的老舊集合住宅做這樣的補助。","我先跟部長報告，因為這個4,100億的特別預算，三個黨都有提出版本，本黨現在也是支持這個老屋延壽的部分，不過因為這個計畫原本是在115年要推的，不管是放在公務預算公建計畫還是放在基金裡面，現在是要把它提早列在特別預算裡面，所以要請教部長的就是，因為特別預算會有急迫性或是特別必要性，內政部是不是已經準備好要把它放在特別預算裡面？民眾來運用的時候，整體計畫你們是不是都已經規劃好了？請部長回答。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝張委員的關心，也非常謝謝張委員的支持，確實沒有錯，我們在跟國發會請益的時候有提到老宅延壽，原先是要放到115年開始的年度預算，但是後來因為國發會發布臺灣已經進入超高齡社會，我們也提到有關社宅的部分，當我們請老人家搬出去到社宅時，他們不願意離開原來的生活區域，所以我們就提到老宅延壽這樣的概念，獲得各界的支持，我們跟相關的公會及單位都有去進行過這方面的溝通。現在老宅延壽牽涉到三個面向，第一個就是我們自己內政部的部分，有關於建築物本體是否安全、可以做老宅延壽的工程；第二個就是衛福部的部分，因為他們的長照3.0是要照顧老人家，所以老人家的居家修繕、室內修繕也會列入老宅延壽裡面重要的一部分；再來就是有關於老宅延壽也會牽涉到我們因應氣候變遷的節能減碳，譬如說老宅有老的電線，那個地方一定是非常耗電，危險性也會增高。這三項一起進行的時候，行政院認為可以列入這次的特別預算，因此給予50億元的quota，讓內政部跟其他部會來進行。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。的確這4,100億原本是因應川普的關稅政策，剛剛部長的解釋，雖然跟川普的關稅政策的相連性不是那麼高，可是因為現在臺灣社會的老宅比較多，是有需要的，所以部長的解釋是OK。不過現在要請教部長的是，因為是列在特別預算裡面，我剛剛有特別跟您報告過，在115年的時候，以每一個民眾來講，補助上限是50%，請教一下，在特別預算裡面，過去在特別預算裡面如果申請補助，補助的上限都是100%，就我的了解是不是都是100%，這樣的補助會不會有網內互打的問題？就是我去申請特別預算，補助會比較高，但我115年申請公務預算的時候，補助只有50%，有這樣的落差，還有裡面的相關部分等一下還要請教，這是就補助預算的部分先請教，等一下再就細項的部分請教。"],["劉部長世芳：好，其實我們有設算，這兩者之間應該不會有矛盾，我請署長先說明。"],["張委員智倫：所以詳細內容、補助的金額比例大概是怎麼樣？"],["劉部長世芳：最高我們會定上限。"],["張委員智倫：好。請署長說明。"],["吳署長欣修：其實要不要補助50%不是特別預算的問題……"],["張委員智倫：你們新聞稿有寫50%，特別預算的話會多少？"],["吳署長欣修：不是，說明一下，因為過程當中會有發包的問題，所以我們現在訂定這個部分時，大概會區分為公共區域及室內區域做不同的比例設算，因為公共區域是屬於整棟大樓共有，所以會有是否屬於公共發包的問題；但是室內修繕的部分是屬於個案申請的部分，是可以調整的，這個部分我們會做好比較詳細的設算以後，也跟行政院報告，它是可以允許不同比例存在的。"],["張委員智倫：所以我的意思是說，會不會在115年老屋延壽計畫……因為你們的新聞稿說115年老屋延壽計畫的補助上限就是50%，而現在在特別預算裡面，特別預算是比較寬鬆的。"],["吳署長欣修：對，它是允許有不同設算的。"],["張委員智倫：有不同設算，民眾會不會申請特別預算的補助會比較高、比較多？會不會有這樣的問題？"],["吳署長欣修：是有可能。"],["張委員智倫：所以這邊就是我要請署長跟部長去了解的，這樣的話大家就會趕著去申請特別預算，特別預算有個特別的點是它會在116年的12月31號到期，所以可能變成跟公務預算會有差異，民眾會覺得用特別預算的話補助比較多，大家就去申請特別預算，公務預算的部分可能就沒有人申請，這樣會造成內政部在編列預算的時候，執行率會稍微較差一點，所以這邊提醒署長一下，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員智倫：第二個問題就是，老宅延壽這個計畫非常好，可是民眾都知道，在一些比較舊型社區的部分，過去政府的一些補助，比如說外牆拉皮或是電梯等等，我想請教，以項目來講，過去有一些老屋拉皮或是電梯，跟現在全新的老宅延壽計畫，申請的項目是不是有些重複？未來內政部或國土署是不是可以區分？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，最主要是因為程序上的不同，程序上就有點像現在的都更裡面有分都更跟危老兩種制度一樣，第一個是對象不同，這個計畫是針對4到6樓，這是比較沒有耐震疑慮的；第二個就是它是不一定要經過管委會的，而都更整危則是必須要透過管委會，所以相對規模比較大，那這種是允許小規模的，可能它是十幾戶或甚至只有八戶，這樣的方式其實可以加速他們來申請；第三個是內容上，其實對這一個特別條例來講，可以整修的項目範圍更廣，用這樣的方式……"],["張委員智倫：對比過去擴大範圍嘛，比如未來使用老屋延壽，同意比例是不是要100%，以一整棟樓來講，同意比例大概多少，大概百分之百嘛？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員智倫：所以應該還是有其困難。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員智倫：不過我很樂見，不管是內政部或國土署放寬未來老屋整修的範圍，過去大家也提到很多公共空間的問題，比如說連燈都是不亮的，其實這些都有機會納入未來的整個範圍內嘛？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝，本席樂見這樣子的措施。","最後一個問題再請教一下，因為剛剛也講特別提到0403大地震，從去年已經發生了1年，請教部長跟署長，有沒有統計之前被列成紅單跟黃單的部分現在整個的處理進度如何，是不是還是很多的房子想要重建？或者很多住戶因為已經被列成紅單跟黃單，不管是他持有資產的價值減損、現在也沒辦法住在裡面等等問題，現在這樣子的問題你們統計還有多少？未來你們有沒有考慮要怎麼樣解決這些受災戶？"],["吳署長欣修：了解，感謝委員，本部大概專注在處理花蓮的部分。"],["張委員智倫：對，那其他縣市……"],["吳署長欣修：花蓮目前大概都有進入程序當中，不管他是走耐震補強或者是走重建的部分，都有進入到程序了。當然我知道現在在新北，也有部分在桃園……"],["張委員智倫：沒錯，我們新北還滿多的。"],["吳署長欣修：因為住戶意見整合的過程當中比較辛苦，所以縣市政府都很努力，但是也有卡到意見整合的部分。"],["張委員智倫：當然這個大家可以討論，剛剛有特別提到公辦都更，不知道是不是一個很好的方式？在其他縣市是不是慢慢有機會政府怎麼樣去協助，有沒有一些考量？"],["吳署長欣修：這個部分我想我們來了解一下，看看新北跟桃園在目前的過程當中大致上遇到什麼樣的問題，我們來了解看看是不是能夠給予一些協助……"],["張委員智倫：主席，最後一個問題，我常跟部長、署長建議及拜託的就是，0403大地震之後，尤其臺灣屋齡已經3、40年以上的房子非常多，我一直在討論像現在這樣的特別條例、特別預算或是未來整個公務預算，是不是有可能加入一些老屋健檢、初檢的方式把它擴大？比如我我的房子是這種4層樓、5層樓、6層樓的老宅，未來不知道能因應幾級的地震，假設我可以向政府單位申請老屋健檢的一些補助，可以知道我的房子未來的狀況怎麼樣，讓整個……"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實我們現在就有這樣的一個制度，因為……"],["張委員智倫：每年大概編列多少預算？民眾好不好申請？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我們都有受理，然後每年的額度其實都夠，但是目前來講，全臺灣大概只有接近2萬件申請，初評的部分大概是1萬2,000到1萬5,000，普遍因為有些民眾會擔心健檢出來的結果不理想的話，很可能會影響自己的房屋價值，所以我們到目前有編列預算，但是事實上申請的數量沒有很多。"],["張委員智倫：署長未來願意推廣嗎？總不能每次遇到地震以後，這些受災戶都很辛苦，"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我們在做老宅延壽這個案子的時候，其實同步也在做這個健檢，也就是說它有耐震的初評，初評這一個部分都有一起納入實施，民眾若有興趣的話其實都來申請，我想我們都會……"],["張委員智倫：所以在做老宅健檢的時候……意思就是你們會推廣老屋健檢。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長、署長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員。","下一位我們請張宏陸召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":46,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-18","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","麥玉珍","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","林俊憲","徐富癸","張雅琳","吳琪銘","王鴻薇","高金素梅","邱鎮軍","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、國家住宅及都市更新中心董事長就「都市更新與危老重建之執行成效及未\n來展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「都市更新條例增訂第四十\n四條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等23人擬具「都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例\n第三條及第十一條條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案綜合詢答並處理法律提案】","agenda_id":"1144701_00001"}}},{"id":"161042","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161042","video_url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09:24:20","影片長度":"00:08:03","會議時間":"2025-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請內政部部長、國家住宅及都市更新中心董事長就「都市更新與危老重建之執行成效及未來展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢。二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「都市更新條例增訂第四十四條之一條文草案」案。三、審查委員賴惠員等23人擬具「都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例第三條及第十一條條文修正草案」案。【第一案至第三案綜合詢答並處理法律提案。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-08","start_time":"2025-05-08T09:16:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-08T09:24:20+08:00","duration":483,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-18"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.76784375,"end":11.961593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.04596875,"end":12.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.42534375,"end":14.661593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.54284375,"end":33.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.017218750000005,"end":34.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.135343750000004,"end":59.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.072218750000005,"end":61.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.88221875000001,"end":62.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.70909375,"end":61.759718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.979093750000004,"end":71.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.22659375,"end":73.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.03221875,"end":112.72221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.73221875,"end":76.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.76159375,"end":76.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.56721875000001,"end":79.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.04346875,"end":82.38096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.03471875000001,"end":84.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.27784375,"end":94.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.31784375000001,"end":108.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.72221875000001,"end":112.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.77284375,"end":112.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.78971875,"end":112.95846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.95846875000001,"end":112.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.97534375000001,"end":139.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.18659375000001,"end":138.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.03034375000001,"end":139.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.11471875,"end":215.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.19909375,"end":140.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.06471875000003,"end":216.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.43596875,"end":237.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.59284375000001,"end":263.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.56784375,"end":264.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.45784375,"end":270.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.27971875000003,"end":310.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.97846875,"end":282.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.73971875,"end":300.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.86096875000004,"end":305.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.61534375,"end":332.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.21534375000005,"end":343.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.02534375000005,"end":334.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.80096875000004,"end":338.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.43721875,"end":349.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.37721875,"end":352.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.70596875,"end":420.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.56534375,"end":387.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.63659375000003,"end":417.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.06659375000004,"end":429.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.65159375,"end":437.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.96284375000005,"end":436.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.03034375000004,"end":436.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.90784375000004,"end":436.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.43096875000003,"end":454.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.15846875000005,"end":459.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.06034375,"end":465.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.65909375,"end":475.87221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.48971875,"end":469.15596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.07471875000005,"end":478.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.51346875,"end":476.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.64409375,"end":478.82534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.04034375000003,"end":482.97659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.793,"end":12.656,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請劉世芳劉部長劉部長有請部長好部長今天我們要談這個都市更新的部分那其實我想大家都非常的重視那其實我們可以看到其實在行政院的網站上面呢都市更新條例這個也甚至是一個非常"},{"start":34.996,"end":58.966,"text":"行政院列為重要的政策就是希望能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部長我接受你這段談話不過你現在的講法呢正是我今天想要跟你討論的問題因為從你剛剛的這段談話我中整起來一句話應該是你認為讓我們都市更新加快加大其實是擴大案量也就是擴大讓民間的熟識度以至於進來的案量更大我可以簡化成這樣嗎你是要鼓勵民間更快送大進來以加快都更當然我們不只鼓勵"},{"start":142.153,"end":169.481,"text":"因為我今天想要告訴你討論啦討論的其實就是我們這個都市更新條例是從1998制定到現在經歷了13次修法然後2019全文修正後每年都在修嘛每次其實這是一個算是良性的修法因為它都是在精進可見得我們重視可是你看看我們現在各縣市的都市更新案件是什麼狀況呢在四大階段裡面按照這個網站上面我們這樣看到的狀況其實"},{"start":171.221,"end":197.479,"text":"在等待都委會審定的案件量反而是最多的以全國來講停留在就是他成立了這個都市更新會這是整合民間意見嘛送件然後再來的話報縣市政府的都市更新委員會等待審議這是第二階段然後都委會審議完成之後送地方政府的核定是第三階段嘛然後就核定然後就可以開始開工嘛我沒有搞錯的話確實是這樣"},{"start":198.9,"end":215.098,"text":"那么现在大部分的案件其实是停在都委会的审议当中啊而且如果我们从2021年到2024年这样来看的话其实等待都委会审定的案量是一直在增加的而核定的案件量"},{"start":215.999,"end":235.891,"text":"和等待審議的數字其實顯不相當那這個狀況會是什麼就是部長您剛剛所說的其實民間已經在政府這幾年的鼓勵甚至是告知之下大部分的人已經有這個了解有這個意願而且一直在進來了所以案件量反而是一直在進來但後面塞車了啊"},{"start":238.932,"end":264.295,"text":"我認為是塞車了所以我們也接到不少的陳情暗示到底要怎麼去加速整個都市更新的程序那我現在就是看到政府這邊提出的我覺得政府也很有誠意啦因為剛剛在說的這個簡明都更程序強化都更審議建立協商平台強化這麼多這都是為了要促進它的速度嘛可是事實上"},{"start":265.756,"end":289.316,"text":"數字就是呈現在給我們看啊部長或者是署長你怎麼看這樣的現象好 感謝委員垂詢的確因為在整個都更的審議過程當中其實往往不是只有都市計畫審議也有包含都更審議 也有包含交評那有些案子大的時候甚至會涉及到環評那所以過去的地方政府他們比較習慣就是線性式的審查"},{"start":290.197,"end":301.268,"text":"那先進式的審查就很容易因為各委員會之間的意見不一致往往會讓很多文件來來回回的退主要講到重點了嘛所以其實我們在過程當中其實都有鼓勵地方能夠併審的話就併審尤其是都市設計跟交評兩個如果可以併審其實是會減低很多的困擾"},{"start":310.677,"end":331.793,"text":"署長你在這裡的話就是確實把他這個內行人講門道啦剛剛在等待都市更新委員會地方政府這一層的審議其實就拆成了這麼多細項這樣子要分頭下去審如果是線性審查和能夠整併加速時間這個就不一樣所以這個是否包含在你的簡化審議程序當中呢看起來是不像"},{"start":332.673,"end":334.895,"text":"因為像礁品跟都市設計它就是純屬地方事務的我們在中央的法規裡面比較沒有辦法規範所以我們過去在檢討作業當中都是用鼓勵的方式鼓勵他們把這些部分能夠併審的話就併審來減輕"},{"start":349.964,"end":371.142,"text":"這過程中這個這個申請人的好署長我覺得你現在的回答很好但是能不能你這段話是到地方政府執行我覺得如果只有鼓勵的話那現在已經實施了幾年就是現在這樣的狀況嘛所以我作為立法委員我在這裡就是看到這樣的現象我提出垂詢嘛我提出質詢嘛那我認為既然內政部是作為這整件事情的中央主管機關那現在鼓勵不夠了"},{"start":373.964,"end":402.029,"text":"問題還在那我們是不是可以提出指引啊或者有什麼其他的方向我們現在簡單講就是要去等待排隊收銀的人要去付錢的人太多了結果收銀台塞住了現在就是廣播在請求資源嘛對啊 就是請求收銀資源現在就是請求審議資源這樣的狀態所以到底有什麼方式甚至是根本你的審議委員會的量能是不是應該增加一個縣市可以多成立幾組我覺得這都是可行的方法啊"},{"start":402.449,"end":414.657,"text":"不然的話如果我們一直鼓勵民間那按量一直來對不對那中間這段卡住了那其實反而是造成民怨的狀況因為一等都是用年計算的我覺得這個狀況實在是值得考慮署長甚至部長你覺得今天這段談話你們會做什麼樣的反饋感謝啦感謝委員我想我們第一個當然是在檢討會裡面主要提出來第二個"},{"start":426.397,"end":442.749,"text":"我想在我們過去有很多審議的注意事項那我們或許在跟地方政府協調我們把它更改成相關的作業指引那尤其是在做相關的程序的時候能夠簡化或是併審的制度兩個併行"},{"start":444.23,"end":458.945,"text":"那變成說在你最好三四個委員會一次提出來那讓這個業主能夠做一次性比較一致性的修正我覺得你今天講得非常清楚甚至連提出指引都講出來了那這樣的話是不是可以有明確的啟程"},{"start":460.097,"end":478.572,"text":"好 這我想我們今年這個年度就來做這樣一個就是半年左右嘛 是年底前 今年年底前完成指引啦好不好我們再來去檢討做這樣的修正而且甚至是已經就應該開始實施順便一邊看有什麼要檢討的一邊走一邊做指引然後年底前提出指引好 這我們來做這樣好 謝謝署長 謝謝署長謝謝蘇曉慧委員下一位我們請張志倫委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":120,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時16分）謝謝主席。我們請劉世芳劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長，有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員早。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長好。今天我們要談都市更新，這部分我想大家都非常重視。其實我們可以看到，在行政院的網站上面，都市更新條例的修法被列為重要政策，希望能夠全面提升都更的量能。","部長剛剛也報告了很多。都市更新條例重要的修法面向包括簡明都更程序、強化都更審議、建立協商平臺、強化政府主導，部長覺得這四個面向現在是都穩健地做得很好，還是有哪一個方向比較有待加強？不然修法要修哪一個方向？"],["劉部長世芳：在公部門和民間企業，就是有意願推動都更的部分可能還要多做溝通，因為要持續瞭解……"],["蘇委員巧慧：有意願？你認為是民間意願不夠嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：不是，是有意願者，但是他不瞭解行政程序上面的問題，包括容積或者是整個建築法令上的規範。一般人比較沒有像這個專業，譬如說建築師或其他公會瞭解得那麼多，必須要多溝通。但是我們也很高興看到地方政府陸陸續續成立有關都市更新的專責單位，包括臺北市、新北市，都有成立都市更新處，其他有8個縣市政府也成立都市更新相關科、組，我覺得這樣對有意願的民眾來講，在諮詢層面可以提供相當好的法令上的支持。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，我接受你這段談話，不過你現在的講法正是我今天想要跟你討論的問題，因為從你剛剛這段談話，我綜整起來的一句話應該是，你認為讓我們都市更新加快、加大，其實是擴大案量，也就是擴大民間的熟識度，讓進來的案量更大。我可是簡化成這樣嗎？你是要鼓勵民間更快送案進來以加快都更？"],["劉部長世芳：當然，我們不只鼓勵，還有獎勵。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我的方向恰好跟你相反。我今天想要跟你討論的是，都市更新條例從1998年制定到現在，經歷13次修法，2019年全文修正後，每年都在修，其實這算是一個良性的修法，因為它都是在精進，也可見我們對它的重視。可是你看看，現在各縣市的都市更新案件是什麼狀況呢？按照我們在網站上看到的狀況，在四大階段裡面，「等待都委會審定」的案件量反而是最多的。以全國來講，成立都市更新會整合民間意見後送件，再來是報縣市政府的都市更新委員會等待審議，這是第二階段；都委會審議完成後，送地方政府核定是第三階段，核定後就可以開工。如果我沒有搞錯的話，確實是這樣。現在大部分的案件其實是停在都委會審議當中，如果我們從2021年到2024年來看，等待都委會審定的案件量是一直在增加的，而核定的案件量和等待審議的數字顯不相當。這個狀況就是部長剛剛所說的，其實民間已經在政府這幾年的鼓勵甚至告知之下，大部分的人已經有這個瞭解、有這個意願，而且一直送件進來了，所以案件量一直增加，但是後面塞車了啦！我認為是塞車了！所以我們也接到不少陳情案是到底要怎麼去加速整個都市更新的程序。","現在看到政府這邊提出的，我覺得政府也很有誠意，因為剛剛在說的簡明都更程序、強化都更審議、建立協商平臺、強化政府主導，都是為了要促進它的速度嘛！可是事實上就是呈現這樣的數字給我們看啊！部長或署長，你們怎麼看這樣的現象？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員垂詢，的確在整個都更的審議過程當中，往往不是只有都市計畫審議，也有包含都更審議，也有包含交評，有些大的案子甚至會涉及環評，所以過去地方政府比較習慣線性式的審查，線性式的審查就很容易因為各委員會之間的意見不一致，而讓很多文件來來回回地退……"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長講到重點了嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：所以我們在過程當中其實都有鼓勵地方，能夠併審的話就併審，尤其是都市設計跟交評，兩個如果可以併審，其實會減少很多困擾。"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長確實是內行人，懂得其中的門道。在等待地方政府這一層的都市更新委員會審議，其實就拆成這麼多細項要分頭下去審，如果是線性審查，和能夠整併、加快速度、縮短時間，這個就不一樣了。所以這是否包含在你們所說的簡化審議程序當中呢？看起來是不像！"],["吳署長欣修：報告……"],["蘇委員巧慧：不是喔！不一樣喔！"],["吳署長欣修：因為交評和都市設計就是純屬地方事務的部分，我們在中央的法規裡面比較沒有辦法規範，所以我們過去在檢討作業當中，都是用鼓勵的方式，鼓勵他們把這些部分能夠併審的話就併審，來減輕申請人在這個過程中的困擾。"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長，我覺得你現在的回答很好，但是你這段話能不能在地方政府執行？我覺得如果只有鼓勵的話，實施了幾年就是現在這樣的狀況嘛！身為立法委員，我就是因為看到這樣的現象而在這裡提出質詢。我認為既然內政部是這件事情的中央主管機關，現在鼓勵不夠了，問題還在，那麼你們是不是可以提出指引或者是有什麼其他的方向？現在簡單講就像是要去付錢的人太多，結果收銀臺塞住了，所以廣播「請支援收銀」嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解。"],["蘇委員巧慧：現在就是和「請支援收銀」一樣，處在請求支援審議的狀態，所以到底有什麼方式？甚至審議委員會的量能是不是應該增加？一個縣市可以多成立幾組，我覺得這都是可行的方法，不然的話，如果我們一直鼓勵民間，案量就一直來，對不對？而中間這段卡住了，其實反而造成了民怨，因為一等都是用年來計算的，我覺得這個狀況實在是值得考慮。署長、部長，今天這段談話，你們會做什麼樣的反饋？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，我想第一個當然是在檢討會裡面要去提出來；第二個，我們過去有很多審議的注意事項，在跟地方政府協調時，或許我們能夠更改成相關的作業指引……"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，明確訂出指引。"],["吳署長欣修：尤其是鼓勵他們在做相關的程序時能夠簡化，或是用併審的制度，兩個併行，變成最好在三、四個委員會一次提出來，讓這個業主能夠一次性做比較一致性的修正，這樣的話……"],["蘇委員巧慧：署長，我覺得你今天講得非常清楚，甚至連提出指引都講出來了，這樣的話是不是可以有明確的期程？"],["吳署長欣修：好，我想我們今年度就來做這樣的一個……"],["蘇委員巧慧：就是半年左右嘛。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：今年年底前完成指引，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：我們再協助他們做這樣的修正。"],["蘇委員巧慧：而且甚至應該就開始實施了，一邊看有什麼要檢討的，一邊走一邊做指引，然後年底前提出指引。"],["吳署長欣修：好，這個我們來做。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝署長，謝謝部長。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員。","下一位我們請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":46,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-18","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","麥玉珍","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","林俊憲","徐富癸","張雅琳","吳琪銘","王鴻薇","高金素梅","邱鎮軍","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請內政部部長、國家住宅及都市更新中心董事長就「都市更新與危老重建之執行成效及未\n來展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查委員牛煦庭等17人擬具「都市更新條例增訂第四十\n四條之一條文草案」案；三、審查委員賴惠員等23人擬具「都市危險及老舊建築物加速重建條例\n第三條及第十一條條文修正草案」案【第一案至第三案綜合詢答並處理法律提案】","agenda_id":"1144701_00001"}}},{"id":"161041","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161041","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/26c557d936b203c128f4f18b91521badbf088656e97d3403ae5f659dc2fb3fa7a3e401defcf2fd2e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:41:32 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謝謝各位委員 官員的出席然後請邱部長 謝謝委員長好 部長我們先來看一個影片然後想要看您是否認同 請助理撥一下"},{"start":25.796,"end":42.381,"text":"五個縣市首長也發出聯合聲明呼籲禁用瘦肉精拒吃毒豬牛如果說為了當總統然後犧牲人民的健康作為交換的條件那我想乾脆不要當也罷了市民國人都不會肯定也都不會支持"},{"start":43.66,"end":63.52,"text":"好因為上次我們其實經過這個美國關稅的這個質詢嘛你也不斷一再的提到說國人的健康是你第一個標準所以像賴總統這樣子的態度你是不是認同也會遵守好我想我非常支持當時賴總統當時所提的要照顧"},{"start":67.33,"end":95.874,"text":"全民的一個食安這個立場跟方向是完全正確的好那我們現在就來看一下目前國人蠻在意的幾個點上次我們有列出一個英文的官方這個提到我們台灣的非關稅壁壘有好幾項是他們在意的其中就包括標示產地嘛因為我們會希望有知的權利而且你們食安五環不斷的在強調溯源的重要性但是"},{"start":96.414,"end":109.909,"text":"他長期認為我們標示進口豬牛的產地就是一個目前很可能在關稅站會談判到的一個問題那你是不是可以為我們據理力爭來守護我們國人的健康呢"},{"start":111.035,"end":136.547,"text":"好 守護國人的健康是我們的責任那在食安方面的方面委員隨行 我請那個署長不用不用不用 我請部長因為這個是有政治責任的所以我們還是由部長來回答上次我很幫部長還有署長說話因為關稅戰最後如果我們沒有堅守一些國人健康相關的話那是誰來負責嗎"},{"start":138.288,"end":156.656,"text":"因為剛總統有講到說如果為了犧牲國人健康他不做總統也罷我們上次我就有講到啦我說是談判辦公室要負責談判辦公室要下台外交部要下台總統要下台行政院長要下台還是我們的衛福部官員好 我想我們這個產地的標示不管是國內國外是一體私用的"},{"start":165.256,"end":190.993,"text":"所以你會在這個標示上退讓嗎因為當這個他的非關稅貿易壁壘他最強調的就是比如說以前有些角落我們不接受或者是說他希望不要再查場了那或者是說標示產地這個部分我只想知道說萬一後面我們有所退讓的話請問負起政治責任的人是誰啊"},{"start":193.598,"end":218.548,"text":"我想不管是哪一位政府的官員一定我們的共識就是要守護人民的食安那當然最重要就是說要有一個科學的一個根據標示產地有什麼 標示產地而已我剛剛講得很清楚 我講的是標示產地我們有按照有依法 而且是有法律的規定然後也有"},{"start":219.528,"end":224.155,"text":"一體的適用我們就按照這樣來執行這個沒有什麼退讓不退讓的問題這個都要堅持的問題"},{"start":227.348,"end":248.662,"text":"所以您會堅持標示產地其實大家只想知道這個堅持我們原來的規定我們怎麼樣的規定原本的規定再來這個是非常非常多家長最近有在擔心所以我也把這個疑慮提出來我們現在少子化嘛因此每個人家裡可能只有一個小孩大部分都只有一個小孩他們非常重視營養午餐"},{"start":250.183,"end":274.583,"text":"是不是有知的權利還有知道是不是有選擇的權利也有很多人他們是更相信台灣的農產品那當然現在家長就會擔心啦因為我們看到說怎麼關稅團一團變成這個匯率一直台幣不斷在升值大家也覺得很害怕所以裡面有一段就在講說希望可以基改美國的這些基改食品"},{"start":275.744,"end":291.069,"text":"開放到校園營養午餐的這一點也是他們的關稅壁壘裡面那我在這邊提醒您因為這個您還記得齁四年前我們地方政府為了學校的午餐自治條例中想要訂定不得驗出以行受體"},{"start":291.909,"end":310.2,"text":"素還有不得使用肉品原料來源非國產之各式肉類加工品都得不到我們中央部會的支持反而要跟行政院打官司那為什麼要打官司如果你想得起來的話2020年的時候包含您在內絕對多數執政黨的席次"},{"start":310.72,"end":340,"text":"封殺了學校衛生法第23條修正新增我剛講到的禁止使用以行獸體素還有肉品及加工品的這個條文喔那當時呢您在這邊也是跟陳時中部長一搭一唱說透過行政辦法就可以規範了結果你看關稅站他這個宣布32%以後端出來的這個官方文件裡面我們上次一起看英文的那一份他就有講到說飛機感的禁令"},{"start":341.22,"end":341.481,"text":"好 我想"},{"start":368.228,"end":372.999,"text":"那個不管說什麼食物齁我們當然就要比較各種"},{"start":374.221,"end":404.021,"text":"也許他是怎麼樣做怎麼樣的方式製造都要比較他的一個安全性這是最重要的我們用科學的方法因為這件事情我去查了美國美國兒科醫學會的說法美國兒科醫學會他說因為他沒有長期的追蹤所以這些基凱食品還沒有辦法證實對孩子有影響或沒有影響但是他說有疑慮的就不要做這個選擇所以我從前面就講得很清楚了我們現在的家長在意的是透明"},{"start":404.661,"end":421.972,"text":"知道有選擇而不是被硬塞那你因為身為衛生主管機關的大家長所以會不會因為外交部的關係怕這個禁令孔是被消失啊在這個議題上你可不可以跟家長們站在一起"},{"start":424.391,"end":438.971,"text":"我們衛福部的立場是依法除了守住安全以外當然就是依法行政那如果有特定的場所基於特殊的考量依舊食安法相關的規定可以限制流通我想我們行政部在衛福部這邊"},{"start":442.354,"end":457.809,"text":"我希望未來我們不要看到當時您跟陳時中部長說透過行政辦法就可以規範所以不需要修法這件事情也謝謝部長今天在這邊給我們的承諾再來我們要稍微問一下因為部長今年您會出席WHA嗎會的"},{"start":460.611,"end":477.206,"text":"我有看到你有很頻繁的在投書那我們要如何具體的讓台灣幫助到世界那目前呢這個是去年的11個友邦還有26個國家發言幫助我們嘛請問今年你有掌握嗎今年你掌握到的是會比較多會不會比較多"},{"start":479.946,"end":506.821,"text":"我想我們努力的會讓他更多我想非常感謝陳委員的提案去年陳委員也參加四島團在那邊一起奮鬥非常有成就讓國際間對台灣非常非常的很良好的印象我想這樣的力量 量能我們今年一定會努力好 那去年呢我有跟你做了一小段的質詢我們現在播放一下"},{"start":509.621,"end":535.377,"text":"因為我跟王振旭委員有去參觀醫會也有去參觀當地的醫院結果當地的醫院很多醫生告訴我們說你認不認識比如說陳世安認不認識某某某這些都是全球在某一個醫療技術上做到尖峰會列進國際教科書的人他們說假使這些台灣之光都可以跟著一起來的話所有在場的醫生都很願意去聽他們演講跟學習所以其實我們有很多東西可以跟國外分享的這也是你可以善用的資源之一因為我看我們做遊行我們這個遊行非常好"},{"start":535.717,"end":551.256,"text":"大家的訴求應該是一致結果你看我們的舉牌亂七八糟有這個政治性的國旗然後有這個立法院的事情然後也有WHO那個很混亂啦其實外國人也搞不清楚你的訴求到底是什麼你是要建立一個國家還是你是要爭取台灣的能堅度還是你是要加入WHO但是既然大家都到國外就應該要團結一致"},{"start":551.916,"end":576.963,"text":"我覺得我們現在是一定要列入來這邊來發揮好 我也很非常謝謝衛福部跟外交部這次大家一起辛苦的上次有具體的給您一些建議嗎因為我們現場有很多實體活動但看來看去常常都是自己人在參加我們應該要去思考的是怎麼擴大讓別人真的主動來找我們上次我也給您很具體的建議比如說陳世安陳世安他創造了一個台北approach你知道 解決心律不整"},{"start":577.563,"end":593.964,"text":"所以有至少20個國家曾經求他求他去那邊教當地的心臟醫學會改變他們自己的臨床指引然後教學所以瑞士的醫生跟我講說如果你找陳詩安來一定超多人過來聽你們演講"},{"start":595.606,"end":613.127,"text":"因為大家求之不得啊他要走遍所有的國家嘛然後或者是你最熟悉的陳靜心啊陳靜心救了一萬八千個肺癌的病人後來因為他救治這些病人改變了我們台灣追蹤肺腺癌的指引這些你今年來不來得及來不及你要不要明年做"},{"start":614.328,"end":632.981,"text":"包委員您提的建議我們真的非常謝謝肯定跟一定要這樣做我們也拜託各個專科醫學會在平常就會做好一個聯繫所以他們在這個部分幫國家做了很多那今年我們也希望要更多的人但是我們國外的理會"},{"start":633.681,"end":657.464,"text":"不好意思被刪了六成所以我們今年的團少了十個人十個專家所以我們去年其實說是相當要什麼人才有什麼人才但是我們一定會全力來付保持去年的量能那我們還是拜託部長我希望改變的是做法"},{"start":658.044,"end":664.767,"text":"當然當然人數上雖然有所限制現在已經很核心了現在所有的人都是必須要去做外有一點點做國際外交的人那自己專家的話我們很鼓勵如果真的自己有機會的話能夠來加入我們都歡迎"},{"start":677.092,"end":697.309,"text":"我很希望未來你們稍微改變一下做法因為去年你也覺得說我們長期以來似乎沒有什麼太大改變那最後因為這一題是基層醫療希望我可以問的不好意思主席我再來三分鐘這個護理呢三班護病比的這個問題我們當時說提出這個政策是為了提高護理人員增聘7500位"},{"start":699.551,"end":726.29,"text":"那醫學中心預計新增3545區醫院3455地區醫院582人那我想問一下衛福部因為你們做這個公告的時候醫院其實就已經開始改變他們的醫療環境啊開始增聘人力因為每個人都希望可以得到這個護病比獎勵所以我只是想知道說具體你們發布了這個獎勵制度後成效如何因為你有幫自己設定希望增加多少多少多少所以到目前請問不知道你有這個數據嗎"},{"start":729.686,"end":733.889,"text":"這個我們非常努力在進行是不是想市長幫忙回答一下 謝謝我們現在在那個監測人力是用每年淨增加多少以及因為護理師的那個人力有季節性所以我們會有每年的同期來比較那目前比如說現在4月底我們護理人力大概增加了3600"},{"start":753.976,"end":772.874,"text":"那醫院是增加1450左右所以你還沒有區分是醫學中心地區你還沒做區分那我現在記得我現在完整的記得的是整體的那那個比例上是以醫學中心增加我可能會後再跟您要這個增減的那個數據可以可以"},{"start":773.414,"end":793.28,"text":"下一個是護理師他們現在非常非常在意的因為之前可能曾經有獎勵的這些專款撥進來結果不夠透明也沒有公開所以他們現在很關心衛福部會怎麼做比如說你多久會公佈怎麼公佈公佈的頻率跟形式因為他們想知道他們的醫院到底是實際獲得多少錢"},{"start":794.68,"end":811.696,"text":"然後這些錢是怎麼分給大家的有沒有每一筆都花到員工的身上因為你是很籠統的說獎勵資訊要公開啦於院內公開公查尋病主動說明什麼等等這個是有點小含糊所以大家還是會很擔心所以希望我在這邊可以詢問"},{"start":813.168,"end":830.539,"text":"好如果是本來就說要給護理同仁的那個一定絕對不能打折那如果整個醫院院內的一個總給院內那院內怎麼分配我們當然也有規定譬如說這三班分泌我們就是要以白一班的"},{"start":831.77,"end":848.699,"text":"護理人員的一個補助的優先這個已經把辦法寫清楚了所以未來護理師可以他們自己可以查得到說我們醫院因為獎勵領到多少錢這個都會是透明的我們會要求NNA完全公告 透明的好 謝謝 謝謝而且會將網站來公開好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":279,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時41分）謝謝主席，謝謝各位委員、官員的出席，有請邱部長，謝謝。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，我們先來看一個影片，然後想看您是否認同，請助理播一下。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員菁徽：上次我們經過美國關稅一事的質詢，你也不斷地一再提到，國人的健康是你第一個的標準，所以像賴總統這樣的態度，你是不是認同也會遵守？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我非常支持賴總統當時所提的，要照顧全民的食安，這個立場跟方向是完全正確的。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們現在就來看一下目前國人滿在意的幾個點。上次我們有列出一個英文的官方……提到我們臺灣的非關稅壁壘，有好幾項是他們在意的，其中就包括標示產地。因為我們希望有知的權利，而且你們食安五環也不斷地在強調溯源的重要性，但它長期認為我們標示進口豬、牛的產地就是一個目前很可能在關稅戰會談判到的問題，你是不是可以為我們據理力爭，以守護國人的健康呢？"],["邱部長泰源：守護國人的健康是我們的責任，在食安方面，有關委員的垂詢，我請署長……"],["陳委員菁徽：不用，我請部長，因為這是有政治責任的，所以我們還是由部長來回答。上次我很幫部長還有署長說話，因為關稅戰最後如果我們沒有堅守一些國人健康相關的話，那是誰來負責？剛剛總統也有講到，如果會犧牲國人健康，他不做總統也罷。上次我就有講到，我說是談判辦公室要負責？談判辦公室要下台？外交部要下台？總統要下台？行政院長要下台還是我們的衛福部官員？"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個產地的標示，不管是國內、國外都是一體適用的。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你會在這個標示上退讓嗎？因為它的非關稅貿易壁壘最強調的就是，比如說以前有些絞肉我們不接受，或者是說，它希望不要再查廠了，或者是說，標示產地這個部分，我只想知道，萬一後面我們有所退讓的話，請問要負起政治責任的人是誰？"],["邱部長泰源：我想不管是哪一位政府的官員，我們的共識一定是要守護人民的食安，當然最重要的就是要有一個科學的根據。"],["陳委員菁徽：標示產地有什麼……"],["邱部長泰源：科學根據……"],["陳委員菁徽：只是標示產地而已，我剛剛講得很清楚，我剛剛講的就是標示產地。"],["邱部長泰源：我們有依法，而且是有法律的規定，也有一體適用，我們就是按照這樣去執行，這個沒有什麼退讓不退讓的問題，這個都是要堅持的問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：要堅持，所以您會堅持標示產地？大家只想知道這個。"],["邱部長泰源：堅持我們原來的規定，我們是怎麼規定就怎麼做。"],["陳委員菁徽：是指原本的規定？"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：再來這個是非常非常多家長最近在擔心的，所以我也把這個疑慮提出來。我們現在是少子化，因此每個人家裡可能只有一個小孩，大部分都只有一個小孩，他們非常重視營養午餐，所以是不是有知的權利？還有知道是不是有選擇的權利？也有很多人更相信臺灣的農產品。當然，現在家長會擔心，因為我們看到怎麼關稅談一談就變成匯率一直……臺幣不斷在升值，大家也覺得很害怕，所以裡面有一段就是在講，美國希望他們的基改食品可以開放到校園的營養午餐，這一點也在他們的關稅壁壘裡面。我在這邊要提醒您，因為您還記得，4年前地方政府想在學校午餐自治條例中訂定不得驗出乙型受體素，還有不得使用肉品原料來源非國產之各式肉類加工品，都得不到中央部會的支持，反而要跟行政院打官司。為什麼要打官司？如果你想得起來的話，2020年的時候，包含您在內，執政黨以絕大多數的席次封殺了學校衛生法第二十三條修正新增我剛剛講到的禁止使用乙型受體素，還有肉品及加工品的條文。當時您在這邊也跟陳時中部長一搭一唱，說是透過行政辦法就可以規範了，結果你看，關稅戰宣布要課32%以後，在端出來的官方文件裡面，我們上次一起看英文的那一份就有講到，非基改的禁令恐怕……現在很多家長是怕「被消失」，所以我想問部長的立場，如果未來有其他的委員，就我現在知道的，藍、綠、白的委員都有提出關於學校營養午餐的版本，在版本裡面也滿強調基改的，請問你會站在什麼立場？你會跟當時的陳時中部長一樣嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：不管什麼食物，我們當然要比較各種……也許它是以什麼樣的方式製造的，都要比較它的安全性，這是最重要的，我要用科學的方法……"],["陳委員菁徽：我因為這件事情去查了美國兒科醫學會的說法，美國兒科醫學會說，因為它沒有長期追蹤，所以這些基改食品還沒有辦法證實對孩子有影響或沒有影響，但是它說有疑慮的就不要作這個選擇，所以我從前面就講得很清楚了，我們現在的家長在意的是透明、知道、有選擇，而不是被硬塞。你身為衛生主管機關的大家長會不會因為外交部的關係，恐怕這個禁令會被消失？在這個議題上，你可不可以跟家長們站在一起？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們衛福部的立場是依法，除了守住安全以外，當然就是依法行政，如果有特定的場所，基於特殊的考量，欲就食安法相關的規定予以限制流通，我想我們行政院在衛福部這邊……"],["陳委員菁徽：我希望未來不要看到當時您跟陳時中部長說，透過行政辦法就可以規範，所以不須要修法這件事情，也謝謝部長今天在這邊給我們的承諾。","再來，我要稍微問一下，部長，今年您會出席WHA嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：會的。"],["陳委員菁徽：我看到你有很頻繁地在投書，我們要如何具體地讓臺灣幫助到世界？去年有11個友邦，還有26個國家發言幫助我們。請問今年你有掌握嗎？今年您掌握到的，會不會比較多？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們會努力地讓它更多，也非常感謝陳委員的提醒，去年陳委員也參加視導團，在那邊一起奮鬥，非常有成就，也讓國際間對臺灣有非常非常良好的印象，我想有這樣的力量、量能，我們今年一定會努力。"],["陳委員菁徽：去年我有跟你做了一小段的質詢，我們現在來播放一下。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員菁徽：上次有具體地給你一些建議，因為我們現場有很多實體活動，但看來看去常常都是自己人在參加，我們應該思考如何去擴大讓別人真的主動來找我們，上次我也給你很具體的建議，比如說陳適安，他創造了一個「Taipei Approach」，解決心律不整，所以至少有20個國家曾經求他去當地的心臟醫學會，改變他們自己的臨床指引，然後教學。瑞士的醫生跟我講，如果你找陳適安來，一定超多人來聽你們演講，因為大家求之不得，他要走遍所有的國家。或者是你最熟悉的陳晉興，救了1萬8,000個肺癌的病人，因為他救治這些病人，後來改變了我們臺灣追蹤肺腺癌的指引，這些你今年來不來得及？來不及你要不要明年做？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，您提的建議，我們真的非常謝謝、肯定，也一定要這樣做，我們也拜託各個專科醫學會在平常就做好聯繫，他們在這個部分幫國家做了很多，今年我們也希望邀更多人，但是我們國外的旅費被刪了六成，所以我們今年的團少了10個專家，反觀我們去年其實是要什麼人才有什麼人才，但是我們一定會全力來保持去年的量能，我們還是拜託，今年……"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，我希望改變的是作法，人數上雖然有所限制……"],["邱部長泰源：但是現在已經很核心了，現在所有的人都是必須要有一點點做國際外交的人，至於專家的部分，我們很鼓勵專家如果真的自己有經費的話能夠來加入，我們都歡迎。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我很希望未來你們稍微改變一下作法，因為去年你也覺得長期以來我們似乎沒有什麼太大改變。","最後，因為這一題是基層醫療希望我可以問的，不好意思，主席，我再3分鐘。有關護理三班護病比的這個問題，你們當時說提出這個政策是為了提高護理人力，要增聘7,500位，醫學中心預計新增3,545人、區域醫院3,455人、地區醫院582人。請問衛福部，因為你們做這個公告的時候醫院其實已經開始改變他們的醫療環境，開始增聘人力，因為每個人都希望可以得到這個護病比的獎勵，所以我只是想知道你們發布了這個獎勵制度後具體的成效如何？因為你有幫自己設定目標，希望增加多少，到目前你們有這個數據嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：這個我們非常努力在進行，是不是請司長幫忙回答一下？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我們現在在監測人力是用每年淨增加多少，以及因為護理師的人力有季節性，所以我們會以每年的同期來比較，比如說現在是4月底，我們護理人力大概增加了3,600人，醫院是增加一千四百五十人左右。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以醫學中心、地區醫院你還沒有做區分？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：有分，我現在記得的是整體的，比例上是醫學中心增加最多。"],["陳委員菁徽：我會後再跟您要那個增減的數據。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：可以。"],["陳委員菁徽：下一個問題是護理師他們現在非常非常在意的，因為之前可能曾經有這些獎勵的專款撥進來，結果不夠透明，也沒有公開，所以他們現在很關心衛福部會怎麼做，比如說你多久會公布、怎麼公布、公布的頻率跟形式為何？因為他們想知道他們的醫院到底實際獲得多少錢，然後這些錢是怎麼分給大家的，有沒有每一筆都花到員工的身上？因為你是很籠統的說獎勵資訊要公開，於院內公開供查詢並主動說明等等，這個有點小含糊，所以大家還是會很擔心，希望我在這邊可以詢問。"],["邱部長泰源：如果是本來就說要給護理同仁的，那個絕對不能打折；如果是給整個醫院的，院內怎麼分配我們當然也有規定，比如三班護病比，我們就是要以白班護理人員的補助為優先，這個已經把辦法寫清楚了……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以未來護理師他們自己可以查得到自己的醫院因為獎勵領到多少錢，這個都會是透明的？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會要求院內完全透明，而且會在網站上公開，謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長。","接續請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","陳瑩","廖偉翔","陳培瑜","李坤城","徐富癸","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","劉書彬","劉建國","黃國昌","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","翁曉玲"],"page_start":163,"meetingDate":["2025-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1144701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「長照2.0執行情形檢討及3.0未來規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長就「澳洲進口豬腳驗出含萊克多巴胺，如何加強肉品食安查驗，讓民眾\n放心」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1144701_00004"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}