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謝謝好 謝謝王玉敏委員的發言接下來請台灣民眾黨代表說明今天的朝野協商非常的重要因為再過五天"},{"start":2230.387,"end":2248.281,"text":"17號我們就進入非核家園了本來我們有占我們所有用電17%的核電核一核二核三全部都除億了我們一年增加了將近1000億的發電成本而且取代的是火力發電所以我們的電"},{"start":2250.03,"end":2274.837,"text":"會變成變貴又變髒台灣民眾黨因此提出了這個重要的這個核管法第六條的修正草案原因是全球有很多國家最近這兩三年都已經把他們的核電廠都研議了非常具體的講日本在2023年的2月份通過了他們的核電廠研議法院"},{"start":2276.033,"end":2298.04,"text":"法案他們允許他們核電廠可以延綠20年就從原來的40年可以延長20年變成60年這是日本在2023年2月份做的法案修正美國呢核整延綠的核反應乳啊高達94個他們有些延長到60年甚至有的已經允許延長到"},{"start":2299.88,"end":2322.565,"text":"80年另外比利時更早比利時在2022年的3月份就決定把他們兩座反映爐研立10年到2035年法國政府在2030年投資計畫裡面也強調只要確保安全前提下他們要延長所有可以延長的核子反映爐結果我們台灣現在還在原地踏步"},{"start":2323.365,"end":2334.299,"text":"跟世界的潮流跟先進國家是對撞的大家最近一定也注意到連美國的AIT處長已經三度發文了他說核電是穩定"},{"start":2335.287,"end":2363.889,"text":"而且是低廉的他清楚的講可以幫台灣發展核電包括核廢料的處理另外呢你從最近的這個最近這個民調也看得出來最近這幾年支持要重啟核電的或者延長核電的都有六成以上的支持度我們來通過了以核養綠以核養綠的公投案甚至呢民進黨政府在講說屏東某些民眾反對"},{"start":2365.191,"end":2387.143,"text":"事實上呢 我去年有到了河山場實地去考察河山場所在的四個鄉鎮的鄉鎮長 民意代表 村里長他們都是贊成河山研議的我期待民進黨可以傾聽在地的這個聲音所以台灣民眾黨提出具體的修正草案第一個 我們要求"},{"start":2388.163,"end":2412.154,"text":"延長或者是重啟這個那個核反應爐的時間我們把以前40年延長為每次可以換照換發運轉的有效期限以10年為限就是每次我們可以延長10年那當然裡面很重要一個重點就是一定是安全安全狀況下每次延長10年可以延長10年20年30年一直下去另外呢"},{"start":2412.714,"end":2418.355,"text":"我們現在的規定就是要求執照屆滿前五年就應該提出要換照了這個時間拉得太長了因為最近這幾年美國 日本各國他們大概都壓縮在一到兩年一檢查完只要確定是安全就是可以馬上可以啟用可以重新啟用了或者是在研議所以我們跟世界先進國家要看齊所以我們在民眾黨的提案裡面提到"},{"start":2435.439,"end":2448.547,"text":"執照有效期限借滿前一個月到六個月內就可以跟主管機關提出申請然後只要是檢查無疑的這個狀況之下當然是確定安全的我們這個就可以重啟跟延長和墊長 謝謝好 謝謝台灣民眾黨代表張祺凱委員說明接下來有請民進黨黨團代表說明"},{"start":2461.089,"end":2478.56,"text":"好 主席在場所有的委員大家好我想研議不等於安全修法其實已經逾越了這個監管的專業架空了河岸的一個制度那我剛剛聽到這個在野黨你們在主張這個核電研議的部分甚至拿國外的例子比方說它可以研議到60年到80年請問老舊機組真的可以撐這麼久嗎"},{"start":2483.423,"end":2492.594,"text":"在技術風險的一個評估當中其實我們也還沒有完整的建立就算拿美國的例子NRC其實現在也是階段的審查但是我們是連完整的標準都沒有為什麼我們要用立法先來開綠燈"},{"start":2501.424,"end":2519.372,"text":"監管的職權被立法所取代這個技術的問題已經被政治化來做決定這還會叫做是河岸嗎現在其實當我們的立法的草案直接預設它是可以研議的所以立法就一定能夠取代監管者的角色嗎"},{"start":2520.772,"end":2532.696,"text":"技術上的問題變成政治來做決定我們還能夠確保到底這個核安的獨立性還存在嗎那我想這個連風險的控管的機制都還沒有健全的時候就要來開綠燈來做演繹的這個討論那到目前為止其實都還沒有一套完整的演繹審查的一個準則那請問我們的這個主管機關是要怎麼審要怎麼樣的把關"},{"start":2546.561,"end":2569.225,"text":"已經使用了40年達到使用年限的這個核三廠的這個二號機經濟部其實也都說了這個核三的二號機除液其實接續的電源都已經有了安排包含大潭七號機另外興達新燃氣一號機跟二號機還有台中新燃氣的一號機在遠遠加起來就已經高達481.3萬瓦遠超過核三二號機目前的"},{"start":2577.088,"end":2599.285,"text":"95.1萬瓦將近是5倍將近是5倍那另外一個最重要的一個問題是什麼就是核廢料的處理到底我們核電研議年那核廢料是萬年到底我們的核廢料要去哪裡那在缺乏這個核廢料處置的一個共識之下來推動這個核電廠的研議是不是真的就能夠把這些風險"},{"start":2600.586,"end":2623.917,"text":"能夠不負責任的轉嫁到下一代嗎那研議會產生更多的合費處理方案到底是在哪裡那更不用講這個研議的成本喔台電在2014年的時候就已經出估光是要講到研議至少要580億但現在是幾年啊現在已經是11年過去了在所有的成本原物料全部往上"},{"start":2624.657,"end":2629.522,"text":"目前我們核後端的這個基金的總額是4774億如果按照國際的標準來推估這實際所需要研議的一個費用絕對超過7000億那這個費用又是誰買單是全民是我們的下一代買單我們用蘭嶼來做例子到目前還沒有落實所謂的牽場的承諾"},{"start":2646.539,"end":2666.339,"text":"現在又要增加核廢料但又沒有說明這個核廢料的處置的地點到底是要強迫這些弱勢的地區來承擔這些風險嗎我想這個在沒有任何社會共識之下現在5月17號在即所以現在就要這麼急的就講我們先發電啦核廢料再說啦"},{"start":2667.06,"end":2689.882,"text":"那另外在社會共識下我們的修法的程序有沒有符合民主的原則啊我們提所謂的不記名的表決到底是什麼意思什麼叫做不記名的表決不敢留下名字嗎那核電的研議有聽過公民的聲音嗎聽過真正的民意嗎所以這個部分我覺得大家還是要嚴加的思考啦以上"},{"start":2691.569,"end":2704.896,"text":"好謝謝郭玉琴委員的代表說明我們接下來請國民黨也可以由委員再進行代表說明那汪小林委員我們待會就國民黨民眾黨民進黨好謝謝"},{"start":2713.374,"end":2719.176,"text":"今天有關於核電廠研議條例的討論在這裡也有幾個重點希望委員們還有在座的先進們都可以了解第一個我們就是從國際的趨勢來看其實現在全世界的國家為了要達成淨零碳排的目標基本上都會重新回到核電"},{"start":2740.084,"end":2762.833,"text":"來作為一個最重要的一個能源發展的選項那美國總統川普他前幾天他還在講他們現在美國也是要全面復興核電那麼所以核電是乾淨的能源的這件事情是被確定的而且是唯一能夠這個有效能夠達成淨零碳排的一個重要的一個工具那麼對於台灣來講第一個就是我們現在在民進黨政府執政的這些年"},{"start":2769.196,"end":2782.086,"text":"他完全漠視民意那明明我們的民意就高達六七成都是支持台灣還是必須要有多元的能源發展要有核電可是呢民進黨基本上就是完全忽略大家的民意那再加上我們台灣的替代能源根本趕不上"},{"start":2789.751,"end":2802.336,"text":"原来预期的目标那么现在核三厂二号机即将停止那么代表说我们未来整个的活力发电这个会高达的百分之八八九十的这个比例"},{"start":2803.45,"end":2824.877,"text":"那麼從國家安全還有考慮到國人的健康的角度來看核電都是必要的選項那至於說核電廠安不安全的問題我想我在前幾次的質詢的時候我都有請教原能核安會的主委他就基本上就是在核安會好過去這麼多年來"},{"start":2825.877,"end":2834.931,"text":"基本上都有善盡監督之責我們的核電廠到現在為止並沒有出現什麼很大的危險的危安的狀況都還是屬於安全的都是在安全的"},{"start":2841.201,"end":2855.629,"text":"条件底下然后来去发电那么所以核电厂不安全的问题是不存在的那至于说核电厂延逸那么是不是代表这个未来不会有任何的把关我想我们这次法案"},{"start":2856.69,"end":2873.835,"text":"通过之后那么核电厂可以申请研议的一个重要的条件就是必须要在核电厂是安全无虞的情况之下那么可以重新让它再运转并不是讲说如果核安会有检查出台电的核三厂"},{"start":2875.17,"end":2886.96,"text":"这个万一有什么设备老旧或是有其他的就危险的因子存在的话仍然是不可能给他再运转执照所以我们现在的法规不外乎就是排除过去的一些没有办法克服的障碍那么让核电厂即便是他除役之后再"},{"start":2895.767,"end":2921.923,"text":"各方面技术安全可靠的情况之下还是可以重新再申请运转那么我觉得这个部分的话是很重要的至于核废料的问题我们其实常年以来都有核废料的问题核一核二核三厂那么其实都有核废料的问题核废料不是不能处理我们看到现在北欧很多国家都已经在处理了这个处理的决心还是要看政府他愿不愿意这么做"},{"start":2922.503,"end":2933.171,"text":"他如果他不願意做就算是有好的地點可以去或是好的技術可以去處理核廢料但是政府不想做他什麼都就可以擺爛什麼都不做所以我認為說核電廠研議不是不可行而且是全世界的國家都在做延長20年或延長40年這時候是我們看到美國日本還有很多民主先進的國家裡面"},{"start":2944.56,"end":2963.869,"text":"都已经在做的事情那么我也希望我们台湾的核电厂可以朝向可以演绎再运转的方向去前进谢谢好谢谢汪晓琳委员的发言接下来请民进党党团台湾民众党党团代表说明刘苏冰委员谢谢"},{"start":2965.592,"end":2982.198,"text":"好 謝謝主席今天討論到的是核磁反應器的設施管理法的修正那涉及到的是幾個問題第一個是在於說我們需要的是多元的能源那特別的是需要在氣候變遷的這個情況之下要有朝多方面的需求來討論那在核能這部分我們可以考慮到氣候變遷這裡的淨零碳排跟核電的風險當中"},{"start":2994.482,"end":3000.628,"text":"我記得在上一次河岸會的委員當中河岸會的行政官員已經談到說他們曾經針對核子損害賠償法裡面有談到說1101年的時候有提就說這個要去修法可是後來發現到沒有一個需求性因為它不是緊迫發生的事情所以他就沒有再修法就把它擱置那我就已經提到說這個部分"},{"start":3017.463,"end":3020.586,"text":"核安的風險實際上是非常低低於現在我們每年因為氣候變遷所造成的傷害造成好幾百億的傷害是非常大的第二個部分我們尤其是現在的淨零在化石性能源已經超過百分之八十的狀況來看的話我們對淨零的需求其實是更大的"},{"start":3039.665,"end":3049.171,"text":"第二部分涉及到的是研議核安能不能安全的問題再說廢核那同樣也是在針對核安會的這個質詢當中有提到這個乾式儲存槽的部分事實上是沒有的確是欠缺但是這部分只要是去核安會好好的去做溝通的話本身只要多個糧球場的一個空間等等的就在當地的部分"},{"start":3065.12,"end":3091.558,"text":"核一、核二廠事實上都還有很多的足夠的空間可以做這樣的一個擴張是可以的那最高的核廢料都沒有問題在廠區裡面都沒有問題的話這個就是比較小的問題第二部分是上次我在核安會的詢問當中也提到了是全世界當中目前只有核芬蘭才具備有永久儲存槽那永久儲存槽全世界幾十個國家當中都在使用核能但是只有有一個核芬蘭才有"},{"start":3092.739,"end":3116.028,"text":"他們都可以合併研議 那台灣為什麼不行呢尤其是在河安的風險非常小的情況之下這部分要考慮到第三個 剛剛民進黨委員有提到是說民意的部分民眾黨在台灣研議的事情上面非常的正確的 非常的有一個步驟性就在於我們在四月中旬的時候已經就針對民意做調查了有百分之六七十的民眾是支持核散要去做研議的保留的一個讓"},{"start":3118.849,"end":3141.827,"text":"台灣在核電上面的一種多元可能性是為了一個長久的發展當然更需要是原來的這個管理法當中就有提到是說絕對是要符合到核子安全的核安會的把關之下甚至符合國際標準去做核安的安全符合情況之下才能做所以這部分絕對是沒有問題的時候才能夠再去重啟提供這樣的一個發言供參考 謝謝"},{"start":3144.54,"end":3150.064,"text":"好 謝謝劉淑冰委員接下來請民進黨黨團代表說明吳佩儀好 謝謝主席有關於這個核管法的修法在委員會裡面大家就各自的立場有討論過那我們是反對去延長但是今天的這個協商一般來說協商還是應該會有一個底板因為今天的版本都是國民黨跟民眾黨的版本"},{"start":3172.043,"end":3177.425,"text":"那因為我看了一下在所有的版本當中其實落差很大我們今天還是很負責任來跟大家討論但是落差很大例如說呢這個研議倘若真的要研議他申請的時間究竟呢像民眾黨的版本是說這個期滿要運轉者需執照有效期限屆滿前一個月至"},{"start":3192.751,"end":3208.261,"text":"六個月內要向主管機關來申請那像國民黨邱正軍委員的版本就是說只要事先申請就好沒有任何時間實現的規定那葛如軍委員的版本是看起來是說要經主管機關來確認安全無疑似然後再來剛剛講申請時間再來"},{"start":3212.864,"end":3219.006,"text":"有關於要研議 倘若真的要修法研議研議之後可以運轉的時間 延長的時間到底是多少年呢我看現在今天在我們手邊的版本落差非常多 例如說民眾黨的版本剛有說明是10年嘛那翁小林委員的版本是40年葛瑜軍委員的版本是40年之後可以延長20年邱正軍委員的版本是完全沒有延長時間的上限也就是說是無上限的延長"},{"start":3241.954,"end":3244.017,"text":"所以今天這個版本落差這麼大我覺得至少要一個底版出來才能夠來協商否則我不知道這個協商基礎是什麼我們根本不知道我們現在在協商的是哪一個內容再來除了時間以外有些版本講到的是演繹有些版本講到的是再運轉"},{"start":3258.195,"end":3264.241,"text":"這個落差非常大因為延益說的是現在延三唯一只有我們合一合二合三唯一只有合三是有5月17號能不能夠在這個實現前來申請延益的問題可是倘若你的法案你現在要修法了"},{"start":3273.397,"end":3285.404,"text":"要處理重新修法要處理到再運轉這個版本如果通過的話是連合一合二都可以重新已經借買到已經除役的核電廠都可以再重新來申請再運轉喔這個版本落差真的非常之大"},{"start":3288.766,"end":3306.014,"text":"所以我可以理解說現在因為各位想要這個修法的我原本認為說就是要趕在5月17號之前立法院來修法通過可是如果我們接著協商沒有一個基本的底板我現在不知道我們到底主席想要稍微想要協商底板到底是哪一個你是要處理延益還是再運轉"},{"start":3307.214,"end":3314.601,"text":"這個差別很大 你是要處理核三還是核一 核二通通要一起來處理然後你們研議的時間到底是十年還是修正軍委員版本的無上限今天如果沒有一個底板出來我不知道要如何討論那最後的情況就會如同我們之前看到的難道是明天院會前的十分鐘 五分鐘才要再臨時丟出一個修正動議"},{"start":3328.013,"end":3339.71,"text":"一個最高機密版本然後完全等於今天根本協商沒有討論說要處理演繹還是再運轉今天協商等於也沒有討論說到底是實現是十年四十年還是無上限所以主席我真的要嚴正的表達我們雖然不認同"},{"start":3342.995,"end":3346.816,"text":"要修這個法但是我今天很負責任來跟你們參與協商可是至少要一個底板按照過去協商的這個慣例你們要底板我們根本不知道要怎麼討論我們今天到底是這個我希望說因為現場民眾黨跟國民黨委員代表都有在是不是可以你們先討論出來說就有沒有一個比較共識的版本例如說是以民眾黨黨團的版本這個演繹十年這個版本來討論嗎"},{"start":3366.661,"end":3371.585,"text":"我們用什麼樣一個底板出來我們來進行協商我強烈的要求因為我覺得這樣子這個討論才有辦法下去否則說我根本不知道說我是要對哪一條發表意見研議跟再運轉它的落差非常非常之大到底我們現在要明天你們如果要強行通過的話到底通過的是要處理核三可以研議還是你核一核二通通還要再重啟這個議題對台灣來講影響非常之大你要評估的東西也會非常之不一樣"},{"start":3396.092,"end":3399.087,"text":"有沒有可不可以先協商出一個底板你們有沒有認同哪一個板"},{"start":3401.482,"end":3417.706,"text":"好我們先謝謝吳佩奕委員的發言那我們現在已經兩輪了啦齁那這個我想還有沒有委員要發表新的意見主席不是過水協商不是過水不是幾輪的問題我剛剛這個我剛剛提出來的問題有沒有辦法處理呢如果我們要一個底板請問我們到底今天要協商是要討論什麼我討論的是研議還是再運轉我討論的是十年還是四十年現在一定要一個底板出來啊這樣才是實質的協商好不好這拜託稍微"},{"start":3430.109,"end":3453.019,"text":"好謝謝那我們請徐富奎委員謝謝主席我是屏東在地的立委那我想我應該要表達一下我的想法那今天我們開的是核子反應器的一個設施管制法的協商那我想我們不是看到今天是一個永和大會的一個形態啦那我想研議是研議修法是修法"},{"start":3453.439,"end":3462.77,"text":"那能源政策更是國家長遠的一個規劃這三件事情不能被混為一談那很遺憾的我想過去在野黨的委員一直強調說這個核能發電廠是民進黨政府想關就關"},{"start":3468.737,"end":3492.269,"text":"我想這是很無知的一個說法我們是依法行政的國家時間到了就應該除役第二個根據核官法第六條的規定核能電阻的運轉執照最長就是40年那這個是2002年國民黨跟當時的親民黨多數的時候自己立的法那到現在時間到了當然就應該要停止運轉我想這個國民黨跟現在的民政黨"},{"start":3495.851,"end":3516.898,"text":"要推翻當時這個國慶的決議品德是什麼樣的依據什麼樣的專業我們搞不清楚那第三個在野黨的委員一直強調核三長可以研議請問目前的這個機組安全誰有檢查過燃料棒我們這個核廢料問題誰有辦法來處理今天很遺憾的我想"},{"start":3518.379,"end":3535.391,"text":"河山廠在屏東 但合一合二在新北市 但新北市國民黨的委員沒有一個感覺有限定來說他支持的啦 怕什麼應該出來講啊 不敢講嘛 那我想5月17號我們河山廠二號機依法除役 這是依"},{"start":3535.951,"end":3562.506,"text":"核子反應器設施運轉年限的法定規定屏東人我們不是國民黨跟民眾黨操作這個核電議題的一個犧牲品我們要的是一個安全不是炒作況且過去我們屏東最被我們最被擔心的就是我們有颱風跟地震的這個斷層的因素我們害怕這樣的一個風險的問題所以我想研議不是今天公投通過就可以馬上來做也不是修法通過"},{"start":3563.226,"end":3589.586,"text":"就可以馬上達到藍白藥的目的整個安全設施沒有達成一個評估整個核廢料的處置也沒有一個地方政府願意來承受更何況這樣子的一個議題還沒有達成社會的共識民眾黨你們提出的民意調查是誰做的用什麼基準來做的真的有問過我們屏東人的民意嗎我想都值得令人質疑"},{"start":3590.467,"end":3617.778,"text":"那更何況我想過去我們我們一直主張的這個依法行政我想今天在場所有的行政機關的代表也應該要秉持這樣的精神我不希望再聽到我們有的官員這樣子好像國民黨這樣問的時候就講一套我們民進黨的立委問的時候又講另外一套這樣似是而非的標準我覺得令人遺憾那最後我想今天的協商今天的協商我們也希望今天黨"},{"start":3619.059,"end":3643.515,"text":"包含在野黨的黨團也應該提出一個具體的一個版本像剛剛我們吳佩儀委員講的到底是要說一個版本 什麼沒有第二個我是強調我們這樣的修法不能作為研議的一個快道車應該依相關的一個核安程序 國際標準還有社會共識 地方統一來辦理我想這是對於一個立法程序的尊重也是對我們屏東人民的一個交代 好 謝謝"},{"start":3644.956,"end":3649.102,"text":"謝謝許富奎委員那我們剛剛贏兩輪我們現在再追加那個張雅玲委員 謝謝"},{"start":3651.297,"end":3677.502,"text":"我想因為今天畢竟是要來務實的協商但說我還是要來回應一下剛剛講到的幾個問題就是說剛剛一直不停地講到這個核電應該有多元的發電的一個設備等等的但是我想分享一下就是根據德國聯邦環境署於2023年12月發布的一個核能在實現全球氣候目標扮演的角色為何他們其實做了一些非常嚴謹的研究"},{"start":3678.702,"end":3706.247,"text":"那這個研究裡面呢它評估了十種不同的全球氣候情境那這個報告裡面就說明了這個核電呢核能在模擬的發電占比與發電量有所不同但是結論都表明了確保要達到氣候目標的關鍵不在於核能的角色而是在於再生能源是否能夠充足的擴充"},{"start":3708.277,"end":3721.872,"text":"所以今天在講的一個所有的報告都在強調一個就是再生能源喔那其實呢經濟部在去年的7月15號公布的一個電力資源供需報告也有指出台灣與AI科技相關的用電需求預估會從2023年的24萬瓦"},{"start":3726.245,"end":3751.147,"text":"然後增加到2028年的224所以成長了8倍那如果說呢光電與離岸風力如果可以依據規劃來建置完成就可以增加400億度的發電量讓不管是Amazon Google或是NVIDIA滿足其新增的資料中心的電力全部都會是來自於再生能源再來再強調一下因為"},{"start":3752.268,"end":3777.917,"text":"我們現在其實核能的發電佔比只有3%一直不停的要去強調說什麼AI發展什麼什麼的其實完全都是沒有辦法去這根本是緩不濟急啦因為我們現在也沒有辦法解決我們的核管法的問題然後研議到底會不會有地震因為畢竟災害的變化非常的大強度也在增加我們到底有沒有務實的去面對現在的設備 現在的機組可不可以因應這樣子的一個災難"},{"start":3778.957,"end":3796.463,"text":"我們是一無所知的可是我們就要去來開啟這樣子的一個大門那其實根本也沒有辦法解決我們現在需要的AI嘛而且我們AI科技所需要的用電量而且就以我們現在經濟部所說的報告都已經講是可以滿足而且重點來自於再生能源那最後呢"},{"start":3797.823,"end":3824.705,"text":"再來講一下很喜歡講什麼日本啊其他都重啟了我要講一下現在全日本的33座反應爐大概可以分為六類有一類是在福島核災後加強安全標準要來重啟的可是呢現在在地的民意反彈所以呢可能這都還會持續的延宕所以我要講的是說剛剛民眾黨一直有講說我們有做民意但這個民意到底是怎麼民意調查是怎麼做的"},{"start":3826.166,"end":3843.444,"text":"是不是有能够真的反映现实这是一个大问号那再来就是说日本其实还有一类是已经申请重启但是还没有获准的因为它要重新运转要克服的挑战非常的艰巨像是能登半岛的制核核电厂的二号重启"},{"start":3844.105,"end":3872.255,"text":"在2024年1月發生大地震後發生了許多的變數而與台灣緊鄰恆春斷城的河山相似的敦賀二號機在去年因為無法排除下方存在活斷城而遭原子力管制委員會否決重啟申請所以我覺得我們還是必須要務實的來面對我們現在如何解決核廢料還有我們現在可能潛在的一些災難我們才有可能再來討論這件事情"},{"start":3875.137,"end":3897.7,"text":"謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員剛剛有各黨委員 包括民進黨委員也都表達說這個行政機關也應該要有一些說法那我們現在看到這個行政機關這裡所出具的這個相關的對照表裡面好像並沒有相關的評論我們是不是也聽一下我們行政機關代表的發言那我們先請主委"},{"start":3901.721,"end":3925.583,"text":"有關修法的事情是涉及能源的這方面我們核安會是核能安全主管機關這個問題我是尊重大院的決定我們自己是沒有特別的立場 謝謝"},{"start":3931.476,"end":3946.944,"text":"好 我想行政機關的發言是尊重大院啦那我想這個本日這個協商的過程呢其實也沒辦法取得共識除了這個核安會以外是不是可以請經濟部來回答如果明天要強行通過的話5月17號之前台電自動要來提供什麼文件來申請研議嗎這個經濟部有沒有辦法回答這個國內需要知道啊那我們請經濟部常務次長賴次長 謝謝主席 諸位委員"},{"start":3960.247,"end":3979.406,"text":"大家很關心淨零的部分其實我們國家對於二次能源轉型以多元的綠能包括深度節能搭配電網的強振及科技的儲能為主軸而國家也公布了確實的淨零碳排的一個路徑圖現在我們依照這個路徑圖來實施"},{"start":3981.668,"end":3996.416,"text":"這第一點 第二點對於未來AI的需求或是力能的這個需求的部分經濟部跟台電公司都有詳細的規劃過那這一些的需求我們會加速來改辦那第三點的部分"},{"start":3997.706,"end":4023.479,"text":"雖然說目前大家關心的那5月17號之後那核能的機組若是除役了那是不是用電可不可以穩定其實我們不但是針對這個問題有確實的盤點不但是大潭的7號機組興達的1號2號台中的1號火力的機組它所增加的這個電力也遠比於除役的電力還高"},{"start":4025.1,"end":4041.179,"text":"另外一點是目前的電力的台碳係數每度低於0.5公斤這是低於之前的一個表現的一個狀況那最後跟大家說明的是過去在搭配"},{"start":4042.2,"end":4067.397,"text":"核安会的监管我们依规来办理我们确保核能电厂的安全但是过去很长的一段时间对于核废料的处理发挥相当多的时间在于核废料的处理我们认为也必须要予以正视针对于以上的这些问题我们是建议是必须在技术面"},{"start":4068.598,"end":4076.797,"text":"穩定的有序的來推動來確保核能的安全核廢料的可以處理而社會有共識的情況之下"},{"start":4079.184,"end":4092.168,"text":"好 我們謝謝經濟部次長的說明那我們剛剛已經經歷兩輪這個各黨團的代表說明那我們後來也追加讓民進黨的委員有報答沒有 我們剛剛還沒聽到版本的討論啊請兩輪的說明好 尊重主席那我們范雲委員舉手我們是不是就范雲委員發言"},{"start":4102.256,"end":4123.927,"text":"我想我們教文委員會就是不管是新任的立委或者是說當過立委的一直都是最了解和安的那如果我們今天沒有辦法在教文委員會實質討論的話那我不知道就是說再送出去韓院長那邊協商以前我們看起來就是說那邊是更不可能協商的所以今天剛吳佩儀委員說的要進入條文的實質討論才行嘛"},{"start":4128.55,"end":4132.612,"text":"要不然今天就是葛如君您作為召委那這樣子就只是過水我們要這樣批評那另外就是上次很清楚上次那個那個羅志強不在這邊嗎上次的問題就是審查全部保留國民黨"},{"start":4144.838,"end":4150.683,"text":"舉手通過卻連舉手表決名字都不敢那環壇已經召開記者會痛批說藍白兩黨草率修法 罔顧河安風險要大家一起出來罷免這種連表決的名字都不敢放的那我想對我們來講 我們就是要從河安的角度來談嘛"},{"start":4166.718,"end":4180.783,"text":"上次好像有忘記是藍營還是白營的說別的國家芬蘭不是可以取得據說有所謂處理核廢料的問題那我現在再查一次高階核廢料的最終處置芬蘭"},{"start":4182.043,"end":4203.921,"text":"不知道昭偉知不知道芬蘭花多少時間贏得民眾的信任才能處理50年耶那我們台灣呢現在連第一階都沒有辦法處理連據說對藍營人的承諾到現在跳票就是因為藍營的縣市首長都不敢讓人家去判刊連公投都不敢辦"},{"start":4205.123,"end":4216.479,"text":"核廢料那個是需要公投的所以我不知道我們現在不管是白銀要去公投或者是你們今天要就是舉手通過這個未經實質討論的這個部分而且林沛翔"},{"start":4220.305,"end":4244.074,"text":"他的案子更可怕的是強制要求執照期滿需要繼續運轉者應申請換發執照所以到底我們到時候就是在立院表決的時候是要表決哪個版本如果給大家一個交代那我是希望周圍就是您是AI專家那不是核安專家那我們今天是不是能夠"},{"start":4245.094,"end":4247.115,"text":"大家至少就法條實質討論把這些民眾的疑慮講清楚"},{"start":4274.994,"end":4275.795,"text":"我們今天經歷兩輪的說明我們剛剛主委也作為"},{"start":4299.97,"end":4313.555,"text":"請任機關的代表發言說跟莊院會我想今天我們本日協商過程因無法取得共識根本沒有討論 根本沒有討論不要協商 不是破水馬如君不要打假熊今天到底討論哪一個版本國民黨總不敢出來說明明天要用最高機率版本了嗎明天1204最高機率版本直接舉手強行通過嗎馬如君根本在討論"},{"start":4327.259,"end":4337.252,"text":"學生你們突然在解決問題你們支持邱振均演藝人間吳少憲的版本嗎你們在打支持吳少憲演藝嗎"},{"start":4343.909,"end":4352.295,"text":"連協商都不敢討論連協商都不敢失職討論藍白只會黑箱明天又要黑箱歲月強行表決了嗎叫文輝要送出什麼版本給元慧表決到現在都不知道叫文輝的協商"},{"start":4362.803,"end":4365.106,"text":"今天教文委員會優良的傳統"}]}},{"id":"16665","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16665","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc7f5e9927fcb957775e5a7d9476abbdb352bdb8234cc31cacb5fe892363ece9cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於監察院主管預算凍結項目共1案。\n二、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管預算凍結項目共7案。\n三、審查及處理114年度中央政府總預算關於考試院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。\n四、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於法務部及所屬主管預算凍結項目共23案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-12","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-12T08:30:45+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-12T12:25:00+08:00","duration":14055,"影片長度":"03:54:15","委員發言時間":"08:30:45 - 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各位女士 各位先生感謝48委員會 招委還有所有的委員讓我們今天來報告114年預算解凍的情況那其實相對的監察院的預算解凍比較單純因為我們大部分是被刪除的"},{"start":2190.689,"end":2194.951,"text":"那預算解凍只有兩項一項是統三項目統動項目我們編載這個財產申報處的業務費用總共468萬那現在的影響就是這468萬被凍結以後我們所有的廉政專刊就沒有辦法印所以我們現在只有"},{"start":2211.698,"end":2225.45,"text":"上網公告但是大家要查的話必須到我們監察院去查所以我們希望這個可以趕快解凍解凍完以後我們可以把廉政專刊依照法定規定來印出來那第二個部分是營建工程550萬是這樣"},{"start":2227.031,"end":2244.417,"text":"我們監察院是一個國定古蹟所以我們每年分年分區會做一個維修那我們每年也利用維修的時候檢視看看我們的線路是不是過於老舊那如果更新線路的話會有助於我們的節約能源那所以過去"},{"start":2245.437,"end":2249.901,"text":"特別是在113年我們因為這樣陸陸續續的減修電路的話我們在113年總共節省了15萬度的電所以我們的營建工程550萬這個也是被凍結的我們希望在這個古蹟整修的時候可以同時來處理這個管線線路的問題這是營建工程550萬所以監察院的部分預算解凍的部分只有兩條一條是財產申報處的468萬這個是要印廉政專刊用的"},{"start":2274.761,"end":2282.423,"text":"一個是營建工程我們希望更新線路所以希望貴會能夠幫助我們來預算解凍以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝我們李俊英秘書長的報告接下來我們請任總任市長"},{"start":2296.967,"end":2323.179,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生、大家早大院審查114年度中央政府總預算有關本總署暨首屬機構稅出部分通過結議預算凍結項目暨有7個案子那總署已分別於114年4月24日、5月1日、2月2日還有5月2日含送大院共有15份的書面報告以下緊究凍結案簡要說明"},{"start":2325.78,"end":2332.966,"text":"為了強化公務人員執行職務的安全與衛生防護規範總署積極與保訓會研議研議過程也邀請警消等基層團體討論已經在公務人員保障法徵修機關違反公務人員安慰辦法的"},{"start":2343.894,"end":2358.622,"text":"罰款處罰 以及在安慰辦法 增訂相關的監督檢查與苛責機制 那考試院也同時在這個月的5月6號將保障法修正草案 含送大院審議安慰辦法草案 目前也"},{"start":2359.542,"end":2381.787,"text":"正在會選行政院另外在精進勤修新制的部分已經在114年2月3號在總署網站勤修新制專期公告113年勤修管理的實地訪視報告114年根系辦理實地訪視及召開座談會訪視報告將以今年的下半年公告"},{"start":2382.387,"end":2409.538,"text":"那有關本總處資訊預算編列專案採購部分因本總處負責全國人事業務目前已提供40多個全國各機關人事業務所需的資訊系統系統必須因應法規修訂政策推動及個人事單位建議辦理功能徵修另外因應薪資上漲及資通安全強化等因素何時來編列所有的預算經以遵截預算節省公帑來辦理"},{"start":2410.558,"end":2434.976,"text":"另外總署已經研擬經公教人員大意調整條例的草案依法治作業規定完成相關評估送行政院或續將依程序送請大院審議在行政院模範公務人員臨選機制方面總署已經以113年10月4日修正要點增訂不得參與選拔的消極條件同時以今年2月26號修正要點"},{"start":2435.576,"end":2447.807,"text":"增訂撤銷及匯值獲獎資格相關規定持續完備要點相關規定那總數以今年度的業務預算1億1772萬5千元凍結30%如未能技術易以解凍將影響全國各機關及公教人事資訊業務的推動永續公務人才的一個培育"},{"start":2460.638,"end":2485.624,"text":"另外總署會與北東大樓管理會除了支付水電費外 上有設施的維護及太儲如果沒有辦法解凍 將影響我們整體的辦公環境安全及大樓維營的永續那總署及首署機構各項施政計畫 系配合國家政策發展實為業務實際需要 懇請各位委員支持並同意解凍 必力各項業務推動 以上報告"},{"start":2486.806,"end":2492.313,"text":"好 謝謝任社長 那請問人種所屬機關有沒有補充報告沒有 沒有 好 謝謝那我們接下來請考試院秘書長劉建新秘書長來報告請一併就所屬主管預算凍結的項目來做報告"},{"start":2511.422,"end":2533.376,"text":"主席各位委員 女士先生 大家早安感謝貴委員安排審查考試院及所屬114年度的預算解凍項目有關考試院部分的預算解凍案 相關的決議包含業務費30%第一幕一般行政100萬 第三幕的法治業務4萬1000元還有第四幕的施政業務及督導 兩案分別是20%跟75萬"},{"start":2535.897,"end":2554.809,"text":"相關專案的報告跟書面報告我們都已經在4月22號送到貴院來審議針對委員先進門所關心的這些稅出項目包含我們老舊空調設備的汰換資訊系統的建置跟維護還有會議語音系統的採購等等我們都已經在報告中詳細說明編列的必要性"},{"start":2555.709,"end":2570.002,"text":"此外 貴院委員高度關切的公部門職場霸凌的法制化這也是本院周洪憲院長在就職時候所宣示的重要工作就在上個禮拜5月6號本院已經依照先前承諾將保障法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":2570.683,"end":2589.751,"text":"跟考機法第十二條修正草案函送貴院審議也把這個安慰辦法修正草案函請行政院會嫌後續將依程序送請貴院備查那如果能夠順利完成法治作業的話將可以完善公部門職場霸凌的法治規範並且達到有效的防治"},{"start":2590.631,"end":2615.247,"text":"至於其他在預算項目決議當中各位委員先進所關心的重要議題例如考計制度的精進、退伏基金的投資效率跟決策監督、公務人員官職等結構的分析等等我們在書面報告中都有說明考試院感謝立法院對本院業務的支持委員先進的建議與關切都是我們業務推動的動力和決策的重要參據"},{"start":2616.528,"end":2638.646,"text":"那考試院一百四年度所編列的業務經費只有五千七百多萬凍結三成之後正常維運只能支應到今年九月如果無法順利解凍那後續除了影響考卷保訓政策的業務推動也不利於我們資通安全的確保同仁辦公環境的安全維護以及對同仁的照顧福利跟教育訓練"},{"start":2639.767,"end":2659.323,"text":"那致盼各位委員先進能夠同意於解凍維持本院業務順利的運作那至於本院所屬今天考選部全序部跟保訓會的首長也都在場那如果可以請他們做補充報告的話那就請他們由他們來說明那或者請各位參閱書面資料以上報告謝謝好謝謝我們劉天興秘書長那請問考試院所屬機關有沒有補充報告沒啦沒搞的"},{"start":2670.689,"end":2687.074,"text":"來由於我們這個議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢尚未確定我們現在最美麗的翁小玲委員跟最帥氣的羅志強已經到現場了人數夠了上次的會議的議事錄有無錯誤跟遺漏"},{"start":2688.454,"end":2699.134,"text":"沒有的話我們議事錄就確定那接下來我們請法務部長鄭文謙部長來報告那請一併就所屬主管預算凍結的項目來做報告"},{"start":2704.039,"end":2724.65,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生今天應邀至貴委員會就本部主管114年度預算凍結事項決議提出報告那有關大院所做預算凍結決議報告事項既有4項討論事項既有19項本部於114年4月23日將報告含送大院"},{"start":2725.615,"end":2748.613,"text":"在案其中討論事項部分 只向各位委員二要說明 敬請指教第一 民眾檢舉妨礙選舉及組織犯罪獎勵金增累原因及強化犯罪偵查手段這部分提供的一個證據跟線索是至關重要 另將加強機關教育訓練提升自主偵查能力 滾動檢討群之部件及搜報"},{"start":2749.594,"end":2772.622,"text":"二集會遊行法草案此會通過本部將請集會遊行法主管機關內政部加速修法的一個進度每位追蹤進度加並與人權大步走徒步專區網站公佈修訂的一個進度第三法務行政編列內容有詳細說明必要法務行政六百四十一萬七千元系辦理律師考試錄取人事參訊"},{"start":2774.724,"end":2800.844,"text":"人員參訊 因應亞太防治洗錢族第四輪消費評鑑向民眾推廣法治交易僅屬必要的業務那本部第四案本部編列參與國際組織或會議經會為台灣國際司法地位為因此提升部分因為近年成果包括成功押解外逃通緝犯跨國引渡及聽證並守自於美方"},{"start":2802.333,"end":2820.705,"text":"資產分享等 展現臺灣國際司法合作的成果第五案 毒品遏制與源頭檢測措施部分本部將持續折騰 抬高檢數 要求各企圖單位加強毒品的查緝將犯案毒品類為安居企圖上的查緝重點第六案 AI"},{"start":2822.653,"end":2851.466,"text":"AI智慧輔助系統警二家地檢署事辦未見成效這一案新世代智慧檢查AI科技計畫擴大至台北地檢署新北地檢14年度規劃統計事辦機關使用次數及滿度的調查精進本計畫第七案各監獄的假釋制度規定方面我們訂定累計處於作業預警作為實施計畫落實改善並督促工作"},{"start":2852.711,"end":2872.404,"text":"防範疏漏第八強化兒少保護及協助兒少矯正不當行為矯正學校透過個案轉型會議連結交易等資源協助少年出校後順利回歸社會第九案矯正機關自營產品現行展售方式先反自營商"},{"start":2873.365,"end":2902.561,"text":"附近上限持續檢視辦理成效及消費者反映來開發專用APP哪個評估第十一案預證管理的部分未杜絕類似案件發生執行擴大安檢無預警突襲的安檢強化廉政風險控管及內控機制第十一案保外就醫一致審查機制繳交一件新法第六十三條第一項規定辦理保外就醫的一致第十二案偵查不公開的提出的改善作為"},{"start":2903.414,"end":2931.089,"text":"最高檢已經就正常不公的部分 以從法治之外來研理改善方案 第十三 審視新冠疫情後國外旅會必要性尋找替代方案 現代科技所以提供新型代的交流模式為清理現場 更能清楚瞭解新科技在運用上的一個細節有助於建立身後的人際關係 第十四 科技科控設備的使用率目前114年1到4月的開發已經"},{"start":2932.509,"end":2945.737,"text":"到一一零件了超過整個一三年的整年的一個看是第四要辦理司法精神病患的設置已經配合衛福部建制進度了那配合腳踏機構根據督導相關"},{"start":2947.625,"end":2974.516,"text":"的為例的措施 第十六 司法監控病患集中受治的原則已經針對高風險受處分人集中來受治 第十七案 抬高監控通緝犯查詢系統未刊登部分 本部督導抬高監署 積極規劃優化及整合查詢系統第十八 調查與通緝系統未刊登部分 調查已經一一四年三月四日修正法務部調查局追緝外逃通緝犯的作為要點規範了"},{"start":2975.578,"end":2991.963,"text":"第十九案 國安犯罪防治等媒體的宣導部分調查一項秉持創新創意 育教育樂的方式以前行的易懂方式向國內宣傳二十案 調查及編列建置網路流量記錄前後端 後端分析系統經費"},{"start":2993.543,"end":2997.385,"text":"法務部政府長報告完畢請問法務部所屬機關有沒有補充報告沒有了"},{"start":3018.797,"end":3036.329,"text":"那機關代表報告完畢相關署名報告的內容請各位來做參閱並列入公報記錄那我們現在開始來進行巡打由於今天的巡打後將接續來處理預算的一個解凍案那時候針對討論事項的個案還有討論的一個機會那本委員會我們今天的巡打時間就6分鐘得延長2分鐘那非本委員會"},{"start":3050.638,"end":3063.283,"text":"詢問時間我們就不再延長了我們上午十點半十點三十分截止發言的一個登記現在我們請登記第一位王逸川委員質詢"},{"start":3077.816,"end":3104.27,"text":"好我們請監察院秘書長還有人事行政總書人事長謝謝請李秘書長蘇人事長好在詢問兩位之前今天在場的所有的這個首長在凍結案裡頭我看到很多委員都有給一些這個要改進的意見那要補充的資料書面報告"},{"start":3106.051,"end":3127.358,"text":"譬如說像法務部,請你們改的東西非常多,要改進的東西很多那這些委員當時的建議,看起來都還蠻良善的所以請你們記得務必,這個委員給的建議,務必這個報告要好好寫,要做改進,這第一個"},{"start":3128.206,"end":3136.896,"text":"第二個,請問監察院的李秘書長,媒體都說你現在監察院都沒有代記者,什麼委員、村盟什麼沒有郵局,有司機、有車沒有郵局,現在監察委員都停擺了嗎?有在運作嗎?"},{"start":3150.606,"end":3172.396,"text":"或是說影響很大,你們的做法有很多的調整,業務的工作量有什麼改變嗎,跟大家講一下王議員報告,自從立法院刪除預算以後,我們業務費用被刪了96%所以我們現在很多費用是由監委自行出資,包括我們的郵費"},{"start":3176.016,"end":3197.043,"text":"真的啦 保險費 這都自己出錢另外我們堅持的原則就是憲法跟法律賦予我們的職責我們還是要做所以我們繼續繼續在這個艱苦的環境下我們希望維持這個監察院的順利運作那到目前為止我們的案量並沒有減少好 那第二請教一下財產申報"},{"start":3199.264,"end":3207.022,"text":"因為我前一陣子因為他想不去用台,所以我就用網路用自然人憑證炒菜就炒菜"},{"start":3209.229,"end":3235.76,"text":"那現在也是這樣嗎現在還是要改手寫還是怎樣現在有困難因為監察院的這個所謂的所有的資訊系統都擺在我們的一般行政業務費用裡面那一般行政的業務費用全部被刪除所以我們現在維護系統有困難那如果現在財產申報的話恐怕要手動一本一本去刷簿子一本一本一筆那有可能啦阿不然我們現在的系統就沒辦法"},{"start":3237.641,"end":3253.323,"text":"那你怎麼報給法局?我也沒辦法,我也沒希望,現實上最困難的其實是法務部跟司法院他們現在就開始在申報了,所以他們現在叫苦連天那我們真的愛莫能助,因為預算被砍掉啦"},{"start":3253.922,"end":3258.004,"text":"你像我自己以前有做工讀生,去一間公司就叫我去開一個戶,薪水就放在裡面當然錢不多啦,可是我可能會漏報,當然這個錢太少啦,你如果不會怎麼樣啦可能裡面存幾萬塊、幾千塊在裡面,有時候有些數量很小,可是因為有這個系統啊"},{"start":3280.194,"end":3294.888,"text":"大家很方便嘛我查下去之後政府跟我說我對不起我哪裡有什麼東西很清楚我跟王議員報告大家住的情形都一樣其實本來用自然人憑證插進去你哪裡戶頭有多少錢都非常清楚"},{"start":3295.268,"end":3304.991,"text":"那像我這樣常常調動植物的人我的帳戶很多我自己都不記得你也不知道那個存摺是...存摺到底在哪裡 我要存在哪裡 我都不知道過去就自然而然就可以解決我們一筆一筆去聯絡各個銀行那現在因為這個系統的預算被刪除所以我們現在沒有辦法做維護的費用所以現在這個系統是停擺大家必須用手動去一筆一筆報"},{"start":3322.076,"end":3332.886,"text":"所以你們現在這個預算是被刪除的,也不是凍結的?也不是凍結所以現在來的各個必須申報財產,有些要年度申報的,有些有異動要申報的就要手工來處理"},{"start":3337.233,"end":3353.701,"text":"OK 好那接下來我請問一下人事總署的這個我們人事長因為我們今天就是說這個立院如果五六月把這個案子解掉了比如說各部會案子解掉那因為裡面有一些預算"},{"start":3354.821,"end":3383.453,"text":"有一些預算是裡面跟人有關的他的計算可能是人月譬如說各單位可能有一些委託研究計畫有一些委託學術機關委託大學教授那他可能當時裡面有編這個這個行政助理啦 研究生啦那他現在這個計畫如果在年底一定要執行完畢那顯然他現在能夠用的費用可能只剩6個月"},{"start":3385.131,"end":3395.221,"text":"那你們在接下來進行相關的委託計畫這些招標的過程會不會就把這些預算給砍了那解凍的金額你還是用不到"},{"start":3397.487,"end":3424.978,"text":"謝謝委員這個問題大概分兩個部分一個是以前業的部分以前業的部分大概把那個預算凍結這我們直接就把這個人力的需求直接就降低那另外一種情況可能是在解凍之後我們6月開始簽如果這個計畫是到年底為止的話我們在人事會的本來是使用12個月我們會把它收為7個月就是在人力的那種費用上面就是按照他服務的業數來去估算"},{"start":3426.499,"end":3454.14,"text":"嗯那如果說是這個還沒圈的就減少啦那如果還沒圈的就減少好了人事總署有沒有去統計過啊像這一種比如說大學的研究生他們因為這個預算凍結嘛學校老師的研究金會變少了嘛他可能前面這幾個月啊老師說你不用來啊我沒可能一個月給你顧六千因為本來有編八千啊一萬每個月那現在這種狀況啊"},{"start":3456.221,"end":3471.689,"text":"因為剛開始談這個凍結談預算審查的時候聽說學校哀鴻遍野很多學校的老師就跟研究生說我沒辦法跟你搶這個單位應該是這個數字有沒有一個大概的波及的範圍"},{"start":3473.639,"end":3490.745,"text":"那個委員報告,那委員會計較這部分大概以教育部到國科會這種情況會比較多啦那公務機關基本上這種問題碰到的會比較少因為剛才說的,好好裡面一開始,你有些是擺專案的嘛"},{"start":3491.745,"end":3516.582,"text":"阿有些是我用業務會去聘一些研究助理或者業用人員嘛阿他的進展委員會就自己再訂上有可能的就是減聘啦減聘這個人數啦阿現在如果經費解凍以後他們會針對業務的需要性怕不怕有這個需要他可以去請教但是那個聘期本身就看六月開始就存請各位請各位開始就存啦"},{"start":3521.885,"end":3546.708,"text":"可能跟這個主計總署啊 帶回去一下因為這個可能各單位都有一個依詢嘛 尤其就是說之前沒聘的這些研究生啊 這些走歷 這些就相關用業務費支應的這個總是要有一個依據啦 也就是依據的說一個指引各單位在編這個錢的時候 大家知道原來我們可以把它補回來 或者是可以延伸 或者是怎樣"},{"start":3547.769,"end":3569.885,"text":"不然各單位啊 我知道很多公務同仁啊現在開始我們這裡解凍過後 去到他們手裡的時候他還是問他單位的財主人員說 啊這個到底被弄掉那六個月啊 現在到底怎麼補回來所以待會去院裡頭 請這個主計總處給大家一個指引啦就是說以後這種費用 接下來這幾個月要怎麼處理啦"},{"start":3570.385,"end":3586.214,"text":"好 我就同意跟主席總署 我們跟他訂出一個概賴出來讓大家來有一個共同的標準依詢好 謝謝好 謝謝韋好 謝謝王一川委員接下來請黃國昌委員質詢"},{"start":3605.386,"end":3613.073,"text":"謝謝主席 事事麻煩有請法務部部長最高檢察署刑檢察總長以及高等檢察署張檢察長請鄭部長還有我們刑檢察總長高檢署"},{"start":3640.479,"end":3654.89,"text":"三位早 時間的關係不亦問候過去在2017年世改國是會議的時候做成一個非常重要的決議嚴肅的追究違反偵查不公開的責任因為長期以來偵查不公開變成偵查亂公開"},{"start":3662.321,"end":3669.861,"text":"在2017年世凱國事會議以後我們本來期待這樣的亂象可以獲得改善結果沒想到是越來越誇張了"},{"start":3671.24,"end":3687.725,"text":"在今天法務部所提出的解凍報告當中針對最高檢察署已經就偵查不公開的亂象就違反偵查不公開的個案有督導該一二審檢察署確實查明來請檢察總長跟高檢署的張檢察長兩位來請"},{"start":3694.588,"end":3702.814,"text":"你們說就目前違反偵查不公開的個案有督導該一二審檢察署確實查明那目前的進度如何"},{"start":3708.496,"end":3724.863,"text":"沒關係啊 看是要檢察總長回答還是檢察長回答因為有時候你們的權責到底是怎麼劃分的在相關的作業辦法裡面說最高檢察總長也好上級檢察署的檢察長也好都有這個職責要依照職權來查明嘛"},{"start":3725.743,"end":3740.794,"text":"那有的時候你們在這邊回答的時候皮球踢來踢去我也不曉得到底是誰負責啦今天竟然在書面報告裡面說針對違反偵查不公開的個案有督導一二審檢察署確實查明嗎那現在確實查明的進度是什麼"},{"start":3742.035,"end":3768.149,"text":"報告委員這一部分我們台高軍署非常的重視依照法務部以及最高檢察署的一個指示除了召開多次的會議以及舉行的相關這個座談會之外我們要求我們所屬的地檢署務必依照我們目前的那個政策不公開的相關的一個規定來去注意的落實至於相關的具體的數據資料我們會後是不是在那個在送那委員這邊參考講具體的啦來"},{"start":3771.246,"end":3790.216,"text":"之前啊就有記者說經營減掉至少7年嘛消息來源200%正確嘛這應該是有包括在你們今天所提出來的書面報告針對個案有要求一二審確實查明那上一次"},{"start":3791.448,"end":3818.104,"text":"我在質詢的時候我提出來的重點是北檢洩密結果自己查自己自己發新聞稿當天傳喚當天就發新聞稿說絕對沒有這樣子的事情請外界不要再用臆測的方式無端指責這個個案我上一次請教部長的時候部長說沒有簽結現在還在偵辦當中目前偵辦的進度如何"},{"start":3820.369,"end":3846.056,"text":"跟委員報告 目前還在偵辦中 還沒有簽結目前還在偵辦中 來 請高檢署這個算是你們督導的範圍嗎是我們督導的範圍我們一般檢察官辦案的期限多長一般是八個月一般八個月 這個案子超過八個月沒有應該是還沒有應該是還沒有我們具體 經濟等接下來的結果"},{"start":3848.618,"end":3864.693,"text":"社會大眾對於這種亂象大家是深惡痛絕結果看到北檢自己發新聞稿說沒有這樣子的事情結果北檢自己查自己現在還是繼續北檢自己查自己嗎還是高檢署有下去督導"},{"start":3866.46,"end":3881.799,"text":"報告委員 因為這屬於個案的偵查 那是屬我們的地檢署的一個偵辦的一個範圍那我們太高檢署 不用行政 我們會來去持續來去多到了解好 分兩個部分嘛 刑事偵查的部分交由個案的檢察官偵辦 這沒有問題嗎"},{"start":3883.775,"end":3911.76,"text":"下一個問題那你說就行政的部分高檢署要持續了解現在了解的進度如何這部分我們進行相關的了解因為這部分有關於刑事的一個偵查的個案偵查的一個結果我們目前還不知道那等到偵查的結果出來的話當然我們就會依照偵查的結果啟動相關的行政所以要等到偵查的結果出來了以後才會啟動行政程序對因為這一般是先偵查後面才去行政的一個"},{"start":3911.94,"end":3925.622,"text":"因為現在社會大眾非常的困惑北檢說他們自己沒有洩密但很奇怪在偵查的期間當中這些資料基本上就只有檢察官才有"},{"start":3927.777,"end":3950.036,"text":"辯護連月卷都沒有辦法月在這樣的情況之下這些偵查當中的秘密怎麼洩漏出去的到目前為止沒有給社會大眾一個清楚的交代那既然說還在偵辦當中還沒有結案那我們就拭目以待看這個案子要拖多久接下來第二個問題我之前有請教過部長"},{"start":3951.742,"end":3974.198,"text":"為什麼我們的共諜案在偵辦的期間當中結果總統府在具體無上語之前就知道了提前一天解除他的職務那個時候部長不斷的說明這個絕對沒有洩密那我的問題就來了那總統府怎麼知道的是通靈嗎來請教一下高檢署檢察長"},{"start":3976.872,"end":3982.88,"text":"針對這個案子有開始分案調查了嗎報告委員我們這部分台高監署並沒有啟動行政的調查"},{"start":3983.906,"end":4010.119,"text":"並沒有啟動行政的調查我今天可以公開檢舉請你們啟動調查嗎這很嚴重啊在偵辦共諜的案件當中偵辦到一半結果就有人洩密洩密了以後總統府可以提前一簽解除他的職務這裡面一定有鬼嘛來請問一下高檢署的檢察長這個案子我今天我上一次在部長在這邊的時候其實我就已經公開檢舉了嘛"},{"start":4011.941,"end":4032.518,"text":"針對這樣子的事情來高檢署的檢察長你認為有沒有洩密的問題報告委員這部分台北地檢署已經分案來依法偵辦了台北地檢署有分案依法偵辦我希望好好偵辦因為這個事情大家看不懂啊大家看不懂啊為什麼總統府提前一天知道解除職務是通靈嗎"},{"start":4036.004,"end":4055.529,"text":"一樣 我們接下來看 偵辦的結果以後 拭目以待接下來 今天在解凍第二個重要的問題是有關於棄保潛逃的問題在問棄保潛逃的問題之前 我先請教檢察官視察被告的處所應不應該要通知法院來 請檢察長報告委員 這部分我們會依照刑事訴訟法第106條的規定來去處理"},{"start":4063.649,"end":4080.683,"text":"那我現在的問題來了台北地檢署最近五年八十四次視察只有兩次通知法院而且兩次通知法院剛好都是林俊炎去醫院的時候都是林俊炎去醫院的時候"},{"start":4081.724,"end":4109.353,"text":"他是不是在那個中間的過程當中被辯護人檢舉啦所以趕快補報法院我不願意多做揣測啊但接下來的問題是啊我請他們函附給我我請他們函附給我北檢最近84次視察只有兩次通知法院這樣有符合刑事訴訟法的規定嗎來 請教檢察長報告委員啦 這部分我們要求那個所屬的檢察署這已經不是要求不要求了嘛"},{"start":4110.621,"end":4134.34,"text":"過去84次 幾乎都沒有通知法院這有沒有違反刑事訴訟法這部分我們要求所屬的法院 檢察署 依照規定來辦理對 我現在就問你嘛你一直跟我說 你會要求所屬的檢察署依照規定來辦理那現在的問題是 他們有依照規定在辦理嗎顯然沒有嘛我有沒有說錯 檢察長目前好像是沒有徹底的落實"},{"start":4136.872,"end":4163.577,"text":"您講話還蠻有藝術的所以目前沒有徹底的落實你看連昭緯都在笑了除了林俊元去醫院那兩次其他通通都沒有通知法院是絕大多數都沒有按照規定來處理針對這樣明顯違反刑事訴訟法的狀況高檢署打算怎麼處理既往不咎之前違反就違反了沒有關係我們之後大家不要這樣幹就可以了是這樣嗎"},{"start":4166.992,"end":4182.496,"text":"報告委員 這部分我們台高建署會通案要求我們所屬檢察署來落實來去辦理好來 接下來 撮文字 落跑的事情我現在在政策面上面 再請教一下部長法務部 贊不贊成訂氣保檢討罪"},{"start":4186.292,"end":4213.61,"text":"這部分我們有提出法案現在那個行政已經審訊了所以政策立場上面是贊成的嗎是贊成那行政院審訊的條文什麼時候會提出來即將要送那個院會來所以還沒有送院會來處理嗎上次那個委員有詢問的時候那個有行政有承諾就是說明天啊我現在直接跟部長講明天就要處理了到目前為止"},{"start":4214.471,"end":4236.2,"text":"我們都還沒有看到法務部具體條文的建議希望法務部把握時間盡快把它提出來因為這件事情我們不是最近才問從去年就開始問了一路問到今年在委員會審查的時候在黨團協商的時候請法務部提出條文來一直都不願意提出來"},{"start":4237.759,"end":4260.157,"text":"明天就要處理啦我希望法務部啊能夠把握機會把你們建議的條文啊趕快提出來來最後請請檢察總長最後一個問題就好了中文字的案子啊最高檢察署之前有發新聞稿說這件事情嘛你們非常的重視要立案調查目前調查的結果如何來請檢察總長"},{"start":4269.795,"end":4296.212,"text":"那個委員是指哪一方面來請看一下最高檢察署新聞稿你是指哪一方面的調查人為什麼把他放掉為什麼檢察官沒有在這個過程當中表達意見這個台北地檢署跟台高檢署分別在進行調查那至於那個鍾先生的逃亡現在台北地檢署也在偵辦中來請一下高檢署"},{"start":4297.999,"end":4316.91,"text":"剛剛檢查總長說高檢署也有在進行調查嗎報告委員我們台高檢署分調案進行相關的一個調查什麼時候分調案進行調查的已經從案發之後我們就分調案來進行調查還需要多久應該在這個月有機會我們會去調查完畢"},{"start":4319.296,"end":4340.597,"text":"這個月嘛對 這個月高檢署進行的是行政調查吧對 高檢署是行政調查不是刑事調查嗎不是 這是台北地檢署目前正在沒有關係啊 刑事調查的部分我們尊重啊刑事調查的部分我們尊重啊行政調查的部分這個月完成了以後是不是可以把調查報告給本委員會的委員"},{"start":4342.907,"end":4365.956,"text":"這部分我們如果調查報告的話那個依照相關的規定我們也會送到委員會來送到委員會來因為這些我今天質詢的案子都是社會大眾關心有重大的公益性但到目前為止都沒有給國人一個合理的交代希望高檢署這個月完成了行政調查報告了以後送到本委員會來好 謝謝"},{"start":4367.797,"end":4374.02,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員接下來我們有請吳宗憲委員質詢謝謝主席那我們麻煩請部長還有檢察總長還有調局局長請鄭部長 新檢察總長還有程局長你覺得"},{"start":4400.68,"end":4404.926,"text":"你感冒,感冒可以給你檢測,少問兩分鐘沒關係謝謝你的好意"},{"start":4409.11,"end":4429.952,"text":"好三位早我想請問一下就是你們這次解凍的部分那因為我之前一直有在詢問那個AI解凍的專案報告那我想請問一下因為我看到這次法務部的報告他並沒有一個你們這個沒有使用的數據啊那因為過去三年總共花了3169萬"},{"start":4432.25,"end":4440.817,"text":"那該不會也有要求說要有那個滿意滿意度的報告那我現在我都沒有看到我想請問一下你們有沒有準備"},{"start":4442.152,"end":4469.705,"text":"那個跟委員報告好那因為114年新世代智慧檢查AI的科技計畫現在目前在招標中所以第一季我們沒辦法還沒辦法提供這個數據因為你們這次的報告齁它只有在第三頁第三頁裡面只有半頁嘛但是已經花了三千它是花三千多萬的計畫所以我要了解一下它的滿意度到底是怎麼樣還有它的"},{"start":4471.491,"end":4492.501,"text":"你只有說成功率是多少但是你並沒有告訴我大家使用的比例是多高我想這個也很重要因為我聽到很多檢察官說他覺得這不好用都不想用那當然我可以了解一個新的系統剛開始一定使用率不高但是你們有沒有去研究一下要怎麼樣讓檢察官使用率能夠變高謝謝韋瑜"},{"start":4495.262,"end":4522.121,"text":"那這部分那個剛才委員關心的就是使用次數就使用率跟那個滿意度的這部分我們會做調查當然因為上一次是上一次是一個輔助系統那個比較不滿意大家的反應當然就委員有講的還要可以在優化的地方所以這一次的我們一個科技計畫就是在優化這樣處理那目前就是在研發的一個階段在招標研發導入人工智慧協助檢察官辦案或製作書類我絕對是"},{"start":4523.982,"end":4550.165,"text":"完全支持的但是數據上面要給我那我們在預算上面我們當然只要是好的東西對檢查系統好的我一定都會支持啦但你數據給我那我們研究一下沒有問題我們這邊一定是一定會配合配合這個法務部的這個要求好嗎好謝謝 麻煩部長數據要給我好那這樣我請教一下那個因為總長很難得來嘛那我幫人民詢問總長還有"},{"start":4551.986,"end":4574.767,"text":"局長幾個問題因為立法院的委員對於所謂的偵查不公開的範圍他們從來沒有研究偵查不公開作業辦法他都搞不懂所以我們在這裡很常遇到委員動不動說你幹嘛干涉個案你幹嘛破壞偵查不公開我想我也懶得跟這些委員去從法制面去討論"},{"start":4576.923,"end":4592.838,"text":"那我請教一下就是總長因為最近我們發現有檢察官他在偵辦個案的時候我們不談哪個地檢我們不談個案他把跟本案無關的證物一起帶回了而且是用扣押的方式帶回我先跟總統報告"},{"start":4594.349,"end":4613.874,"text":"我自己在辦偵查案件的時候如果有一個東西我覺得奇怪但是他跟本案無關也不是違禁品也不是另案因扣押之物我絕對不會扣押我會請他帶著來跟我製作筆錄的時候問他這個東西是怎麼回事這是實務的做法我想總長一定很清楚但是我們在"},{"start":4614.824,"end":4639.925,"text":"我們發現有檢察官把非本案的證物也不是違禁品也不是另案的證物把它扣回去了那這個跟我國的扣押制度完全不符但是到目前為止他都沒有給我們一個合理的說法那請問總長您認為我剛講的本案因扣押的證物他因扣押的證物違禁品或因沒收之物這四種以外請問總長還有其他的扣押目的嗎"},{"start":4650.799,"end":4669.431,"text":"據我們了解他這個案子這個宜蘭地緣署已經發表新聞稿了就是說他們是依照法院核發的不不不 他沒有在搜索票內啊你不能在扯法院核發如果說有一些其他的物品他們也依規定來發款的嘛"},{"start":4671.589,"end":4684.841,"text":"因為...好 總長沒關係喔 但是我在這邊跟總統報告一下喔就是說可能總統是不是在跟其他檢察官說明一件事就我剛剛講那四種得扣押之外都屬於不得扣押之物 這是人民的權益嘛"},{"start":4686.024,"end":4706.339,"text":"尤其你第一時間還出來發新聞稿說說沒有這件事就那天我是說那天晚上我電話被打爆了就是說東西沒有該怎麼辦事實上那個跟本案完全無關那當天局長也有說啊這個東西不應該出現在現場所以檢察官扣回去了解這個也不是屬於扣押得扣押的理由我們在這邊依法論法"},{"start":4707.887,"end":4730.507,"text":"不能出現在現場的除非是違禁物你才可以扣回一份合法的公文不管目的是什麼不能扣回那我也跟局長報告以前實務的做法一定是請他帶著當事人帶在身上來做筆錄的時候說明說明完我們覺得合理我們就不會有任何做法這才是目前實務的作風而不是扣回去了"},{"start":4731.414,"end":4754.721,"text":"然後又然後後來解封發還又不知道有沒有進行合理的程序這是請那個總長因為您是檢察官的大家長教育訓練麻煩要做到不要製造大家的困擾然後再來我那天有提到一個東西啦就是其實我那天有談到就是有幾位部長還有總統府副秘"},{"start":4755.933,"end":4782.405,"text":"他們可能有涉犯刑法那個選罷法104條的案子那我不知道局長你們那邊我那天說告發不知道局長那邊有沒有動作包委員在上次會議的時候有指示那我們有現在目前正在收集這個相關的資料我也進到一個國人的義務那我這邊也在整理會診相關的資料我覺得可以提供那請我去做筆錄也可以所以"},{"start":4783.766,"end":4800.799,"text":"我想這是一個我現在講雖然說有人認為我在破壞司法違信但是其實我在拯救司法違信因為司法的平等原則以及司法獨立中立信以及一致信是我們法律人在追求的如果你今天的所作所為"},{"start":4802.83,"end":4818.561,"text":"美麗島民調出來的那個數字不好看啊然後在最近也有很多訪問我有看了他們對於司法的中立性其實都打出問號的時候這時候我們更希望說有所補救來去讓人民能夠繼續的信任司法"},{"start":4819.381,"end":4841.986,"text":"所以我再麻煩局長這部分該辦的還是要辦而且這幾位部長他們說的東西像譬如說洪森漢後來他也有來講說是口誤可是你要知道我現在在路上遇到那個霸團拿著麥克風在那邊高喊的他們引用就是這些部長說出來自稱口誤或什麼自稱是我引述的是去年12月的數據"},{"start":4843.789,"end":4872.807,"text":"這些霸團在引用這個我不忍對那些霸團自稱為公民團體那些民眾我不忍去苛責他們因為他們就是聽這些部長那邊鬼扯蛋亂說話之後的東西拿出來講但是對於這些部長們該究責還是究責因為司法面前人人平等啊我們不分貧富貴賤啊該辦的就是要辦然後我也請問一下那這段時間像一百零那個"},{"start":4874.332,"end":4881.86,"text":"我做違反104條這個齁 這假訊息的部分你們是不是也會用選舉查查來核分 如果有查辦的話"},{"start":4883.548,"end":4911.937,"text":"如果是跟那個選舉罷免有關的話我們都是在這個選舉查查的因為上次你有跟我講112年之後用的那一套核分制度每次在選舉的時候都會那其實謝國良他罷免案其實也應該是使用那個112年成立的新的制度但是你們沒有用所以你們沒有這麼做而且那天有跟委員報告你講的這一案當時沒有案地檢署沒有發查"},{"start":4912.757,"end":4939.435,"text":"不是啦 這就更奇怪您在視訊會議這次有要求大家要趕快去辦這次的幽靈連署但是在謝國良那個案子 您當時又沒有人叫全國的調查官要這麼做所以這個就是司法給人家感覺的另外一個雙標所以我覺得司法就是前後沒有一致啦所以現在讓我一個感覺就是罷綠的就是槍斃 罷藍的都不斃 都沒事啦現在給我一個感覺 不會有這種狀況我們不分藍綠"},{"start":4942.617,"end":4961.866,"text":"最近還有發生一件事情跟局長跟總長報告就是現在又有人在談那個簡訊的問題有很多地方都收到很多簡訊說請大家去罷免連署那這個部分請問你們有沒有開始去調查因為人民開始在質疑了那我不知道兩位有沒有在調查好吧那沒有的話那我想跟各位報告一下"},{"start":4969.608,"end":4995.058,"text":"雖然電信業者說這個是供企業商務使用但是什麼時候變成拿來可以做政治聯署使用這個企業上面要不要處罰NCC也不見了所以這是我一直覺得還是做任何事情都雙標然後那這些民眾他的資訊他的個資被拿去這樣使用你們有沒有去調查"},{"start":4996.291,"end":5018.944,"text":"那有沒有用選舉查查來合分我不知道你們有沒有這麼做然後另外其實最近有很多人討論到霸統為什麼這麼有錢可以在有線電視花三分鐘四分鐘去拍播放一個廣告可以到處霸免戰到處什麼LED的車子然後到處激發這些傳單錢從哪裡來這也是國人的一個問號嘛"},{"start":5025.39,"end":5041.606,"text":"那會不會是境外勢力送來的錢這個也是我們擔心的那尤其是罷免對國家安全是有影響的啊對整個社會的安定是有影響那為什麼好像也都不當一回事這個就是我個人覺得"},{"start":5044.279,"end":5056.728,"text":"這就是一個雙標嘛那我不管怎麼樣我個性我就是忠於這個國家我不忠於任何一個政黨國家一定是放在我所屬的政黨之前我忠於這個國家所以是不是麻煩總長局長"},{"start":5059.301,"end":5088.621,"text":"你們也要去查辦這個啊 至少你要告訴國人沒有違反個資法嘛你要有一個結論出來也可以 但是不能不查嘛那104條那個也要麻煩你們真的都要做到啦 不能很多事情遇到立場不同 狀況就不一樣那現在喔 因為新北 雙河 新店板橋 淡水還有平鎮 龍潭 台中都有收到這個簡訊這不是沒有 這是一件已經存在的事實 好不好這部分麻煩你們一定要做到"},{"start":5090.022,"end":5110.419,"text":"然後最後我還是要再提醒一個啦一階的連署根本沒有違反選舉罷免法很多人講翁小林委員立了一個法砸自己的腳那個是對於法律完全不理解因為一階就沒有選罷法98之二的適用"},{"start":5113.874,"end":5140.663,"text":"所以在沒有選罷法適用的情況下你們用選舉查核分這就是我原本不理解的一個地方第二個跟選舉有關的好像像你說不實訊息這幾位部長發布的不實訊息然後在罷免的活動上面這樣講這反而跟選罷法有關呢卻沒有人管再來局長你也知道您是國安站出來的"},{"start":5141.944,"end":5164.788,"text":"資安等於國安那這些簡訊為什麼可以這樣發這個有沒有資安上的問題這應該是調查局非常重視的一件事啊那也都沒有查那我點出這東西其實我一直在講啦我就包括總長我也跟您報告不要說我在傷害司法的威信我是在我是希望能夠維護司法的尊嚴維護司法的威信"},{"start":5166.798,"end":5188.476,"text":"司法的平等原則這個是最基本的所以當你在辦這一群人的時候大家質疑說為什麼只辦這一群人那是不是我們可以努力再平衡一下那當我提出事實的時候反而是說我在破壞司法維新為什麼點出事實人士在破壞司法維新因為我今天喉嚨比較沒聲音那我就質詢到這邊謝謝吳宗憲委員你敢不敢講兩句就算假講"},{"start":5194.744,"end":5208.654,"text":"因為境外勢力確實可以好好查一查查出來的結果跟你想像的不一樣好 請回那接下來請審發會委員質詢王一川你來代理要給他頭酸了"},{"start":5228.516,"end":5255.659,"text":"主席各位同仁我們今天本委會安排了要處理這個114年度中央政府總預算有關監察院、行政院、人事行政總署還有考試院、法務部所屬主管機關的這些相關的預算凍結案件我們要來進行討論跟處理這樣子我們就看到說在去年的預算審查過程中我們今天只找四個單位來"},{"start":5257.52,"end":5274.204,"text":"我們這個預算凍結案就高達39案,總共加起來監察院1案、人事行政總署7案、考試院8案、法務部23案,加起來39案39案只有6加2,8分鐘的時間,要討論39案實在是質短情長"},{"start":5282.276,"end":5305.045,"text":"所以我們沒有辦法一個一個來討論今天我們非常難得監察院的李秘書長還有考試院的劉秘書長來到立法院來到我們司法法治委員會但是很抱歉,今天沒有辦法讓你們上台沒有時間,39案討論不到你們的案子現在主流,我是不是先請調查局的陳局長好,請陳局長"},{"start":5318.812,"end":5344.99,"text":"委員好區長好很抱歉我們今天今天這個這個有39案但是我個人39案裡面有一個案子我個人特別關心因為這個從立法開始就是我們這個司法法治委員會這樣子過程到你們編列預算到他被凍結到現在要看看能不能執行這正好是我們屬於調查局的預算所以今天就請陳局長上來跟陳局長請教"},{"start":5349.933,"end":5366.079,"text":"這個我們就是我們本委員會在這個去年7月31號我們總統公布有關通訊保障監察法是去年7月我們本委員通過總統公告的,公告實施的這個"},{"start":5367.822,"end":5394.552,"text":"統計保障監察法裡面的第十四支一條第十四支一條裡面有關於這個相關有關網路流量的這個記錄這些系統第十四支一條的第六項裡面有法源的依據網路流量系統的這個設置方式保存方式保存期間查詢作業程序調取的項目監督廢額及其他相關事項辦法由法務部會同內政部並"},{"start":5395.772,"end":5418.181,"text":"會商這個國家通訊傳播委員會相關機關定資也就是說這個是法源依據有關於為我們現在要執行網路流量紀錄的相關的這些作業這個是現在目前是有法源對法源依據有法源依據但是有法源依據我們必須要有後製後續的這些這些這個預算對你要你要這個相關的設備你要設置"},{"start":5419.321,"end":5434.17,"text":"不是說我有一個法說我要保留這些網路流量記錄結果我不用設備就可以保留嗎所以接下來我們就是應該法源通過有法源依據之後我們就應該要盡速的編列跟設置相關設備的這些經費"},{"start":5436.852,"end":5450.988,"text":"那這一次的法務部的這些凍結案裡面我看到我們的書面報告的第20案尤其是我們近日網路的犯罪可以說是它不像傳統的這些犯罪形態"},{"start":5453.611,"end":5472.349,"text":"本來要怎麼樣偵辦這些網路犯罪它就是一個重大挑戰所以在這個重大挑戰裡面這些相關的經費我個人認為是相當的重要啦那這樣的經費被凍結被刪除我個人都認為說我們大家每一個委員不分黨派都在這裡講喊要打炸要打炸我們也大家"},{"start":5473.19,"end":5486.362,"text":"在很短的時間內很高度的公司通過打炸釋法通訊檢查法給了法源依據但是在設置相關設備的時候預算編出來就把有的就砍掉了刪除了有的就給它凍結了像今天我要討論這個就是凍結的那這個"},{"start":5490.58,"end":5517.498,"text":"我知道這個有一筆我剛剛講的第二十案它是由我們調查局來主管但是它整個我看這整個它是在一個大計畫大計畫在網路科技運用精進計畫這個計畫不是我們調查局主政的是警政署主政的一個大的網路科技運用精進計畫裡面很小一部分由我們調查局這邊來執行"},{"start":5519.383,"end":5540.749,"text":"那整個這個我看這個原本的這個預算齁整個整個計劃的預算裡面這個我們調查局今年本來是編5億零4百萬最早整個計劃當時你們提報的建設費用是到12億的最早是12億8千3百萬對不對 但是分年分年 對分年 對但是整個總計劃原本是12億但是後來我們因為這個"},{"start":5546.391,"end":5563.985,"text":"我們為什麼後來在最後計畫核定之後降到8億是吧對是後來降成8億最主要原因是什麼因為其實整個就是設備啦還有這個技術等等的投資啦那我們也就是說盡量跟這個原先跟外部機關大家共用啦對不對原本想投資的設備後來"},{"start":5566.027,"end":5582.746,"text":"大家共用的一些設備所以你們自己其實在這個計畫從12億從12億8300萬你們在正式合訂的時候其實你們已經調降了調到最小的8億了啦那8億裡面你們分年執行今年這個今年114年度的預算是多少"},{"start":5583.526,"end":5597.091,"text":"本來是編5億零4百萬5億零4百萬統三的時候其實這一筆預算其實統三的時候已經被刪了3944.8萬了統三的時候剩下4億6455萬對不對對然後又被動了2500對所以我們今天要處理這2500嘛那這整個建制我覺得這個大家都在講說這個這個要打詐啦這個網路犯罪啦嚴重啦"},{"start":5610.675,"end":5626.793,"text":"但是我們要建制的預算卻把我們凍結了我現在最重要的就是說我們現在整個八億的部分到底是要做什麼"},{"start":5627.506,"end":5657.046,"text":"我們這個主要就是這個整個計劃是前端是警政署建置的所以是包括他是把所有三大電信業者的這些網路的這些資訊流量全部通通都儲存起來那我們後端就是去抓那個資料來我們後端這邊來做分析那這個分析會可以讓我們得到什麼得到比如說我們現在有很多這個網路的犯罪他的IP的位置是在哪裡然後如果是不同的IP的話他有沒有勾連到相同"},{"start":5657.746,"end":5684.178,"text":"所以這個後端的這些整個是由警政署做但後端的不只我們法務部調查局要做後端分成兩部分警政署它也有做後端的分析調查局也有做後端的分析那我們就是只取後端的分析那一小部分出來做而已所以我們這個後端這個主要就是但這個部分我看到說你們事實上"},{"start":5685.33,"end":5698.201,"text":"是不是原本有關電我看到你們有一個電信網路流量記錄系統的一個概念驗證事實上已經發包執行對這個部分不包括在這個預算裡面這個沒有這個等於就是有點像這個工程的這個前期的這個設計規劃"},{"start":5706.768,"end":5723.535,"text":"你們招標的預算是1790萬那個已經執行掉了我們一定要先做一個概念驗證看看我們這樣子想的到底實際上能不能做得到那這個概念驗證已經告訴我們說這個是可以做到那這次的預算"},{"start":5725.175,"end":5738.727,"text":"這個我們跟之前採購的我們這個具體內容它效益有沒有重複投資有沒有資源浪費就是我們過去已經執行跟中華電信執行過了沒有那後續的這些是不是你除了中華電信以外你還有其他的"},{"start":5739.835,"end":5764.472,"text":"這些電信系統業者我們也要進行這樣的相關驗證嗎不用我們這個系統最主要是要剛剛你有提到強調就是它有關這些網路行為的這些關聯分析有關一些多重事件的比對大概就是這些資安事件的追查還有這些假訊息、認知作戰還有這些最重要的"},{"start":5765.593,"end":5791.423,"text":"使用這個VPN的這種匿蹤工具你剛剛講說要查出他的IP位置這些相關都是用這筆預算嘛對不對那這些這個系統建置以後我們預期有哪些類型的案件有沒有評估過我們能夠如何提升我們這個只要是在網路上他整個犯罪的過程有經過網路了其實在這一個後端的分析系統都是一個很強的工具"},{"start":5792.344,"end":5801.136,"text":"這個部分我是希望說等一下我們如果說進入預算解凍的階段這個大家每一個部分黨派來上來都說要打炸要打炸"},{"start":5802.048,"end":5827.642,"text":"那我們也通過了這些法源依據也都給了但圖有法源依據你沒有這些相關的不給經費沒有相關的這些設備來執行這個網路流量這個未來這等於是大家都嘴巴講空話所以我希望說等一下在這個預算解凍的時候這個部分大家能夠讓這個相關的這些治安機關能夠順利的來執行最後我再一點點時間"},{"start":5828.923,"end":5845.532,"text":"我過去一直很關心因為這個也是跟這個案子相關啦齁我過去一直很關心我們那個2017年2017年我們思改國事會議的時候提出這個應該要設置國家級的政務保管機關啦齁那這個國家級的政務保管機關齁我們現在要做的這個這個"},{"start":5848.715,"end":5876.929,"text":"這個有關網路的流量記錄的調取他的這些相關這些整合數位證據的這些監管我們要在納入我們整個我剛所講的這個國家級證據保管中心的這樣的看法之下有沒有我們有沒有制定這些相關的這些內部的資料使用的分析資料使用分析跟保存銷毀的相關流程這些相關流程的辦法我們有沒有制定"},{"start":5878.724,"end":5890.637,"text":"這個就是說將來這個資料的分析這個都是要另狀主義然後這些資料取下來了以後會有一個完整的一個資料的保存的一個相關的規定"},{"start":5891.953,"end":5911.162,"text":"有一些辦法要訂定啦現在是沒有的我剛講的這些資料他如何使用分析他如何保存如何銷毀這些相關的執法規定都還沒有這個部分我特別希望這些證據監管的這些技術標準 集合機制這些我們能夠"},{"start":5912.262,"end":5925.533,"text":"能夠盡快的先制定這些相關的辦法啦那我是希望你們能夠在三個月內針對你們訂定的計畫這個你們要制定的情形提交一個書面報告來給我是 好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝省發會委員接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":5939.039,"end":5940.66,"text":"上個禮拜好多假日來得又急又快"},{"start":5962.129,"end":5986.649,"text":"大家都懷疑了 懷疑人家他唱歌 有人幫歌的當然也唱那針對這個新增國定假日這件事情講得更直接一點 就是說其實就剩下總統公告而已嘛對 總統公告之後 這個整個新的制度就要來上路了時間緊 那應該是挑戰也大 大家好奇就是說你們人總 你們這樣準備好嗎"},{"start":5990.265,"end":6017.419,"text":"這個要當總統三度過,我們也要再簽行政委因為這裡面以今年三個假日來講,一個是禮拜六、一個禮拜天、一個禮拜四嘛對啊,拜時的到底要不要補假,因為有的人是很不需要補假的如果可以補假,不要他們補上班啦,代表人家的期待啦像這樣的話,因為雖然也是有一天禮拜五要上班,這些細節我們還是要簽行政院啦"},{"start":6018.079,"end":6041.222,"text":"所以這個其實我看幾乎快定案了啦就有待總統去做一個公告但是你們該準備的還是要準備啦你像譬如說你這個這也不是明年的事情是今年你就要去實施像你提到了三個節日的問題有一個禮拜六有一個是禮拜天這個不只是公務機關啦還包括"},{"start":6042.723,"end":6051.552,"text":"民間的公司 學校 醫療 院所 又交通單位你們這就不怕排成調人力 調人力 甚至有預算譬如說 你剛提到那兩個會不會補放的問題或是說你會把整個連續假期你要是往前還是往後去挪"},{"start":6064.554,"end":6089.482,"text":"人總這邊其實應該是要未雨綢繆啦你自己創作好資料 讓民眾可以一清二楚簡單又明瞭 事先做一個規劃這個就是一個生活的一個秩序嘛我不知道你的看法是怎麼樣啦這我是覺得你要提早去做一個準備另外就是說 你看人總每一年大約就是在年中去公告隔年的辦公日曆啦"},{"start":6090.562,"end":6099.472,"text":"你每年的日曆是不是一併去做公告那你今年修正版的日曆 你當時的功課是不是跟每年的 你做回去的功課 還是要分開去做一個功課這有一個好處啦你這個喔 本來你的職長本來就是擇無旁貸"},{"start":6108.541,"end":6110.282,"text":"他們好好去盤點所有的配套統一規劃這樣有一個節奏清楚對外說明各單位也好 企業也好 他們也要知道要怎麼安排不然大家各自解讀 到時候又亂成一團來 任市長我給委員報告 目前今年度的規定是"},{"start":6132.526,"end":6151.918,"text":"那架就是拜五寶架 你如果要拜 那架不就要拜 就是拜陰嘛那就是目前的情形 剛才委員講的那其實就是我們目前已經在作業 在規劃階段因為我們要處理的一個是 今年在總統公告之後 三讀公告之後"},{"start":6152.598,"end":6169.084,"text":"後來就是三個階段我們要處理,同時明年的,事實上明年的我們大概在三月份就已經炒泥好了啦但是,不然這次我們會重新整理一下,不然表應該是看六月第一天,因為委員報告,因為剛才委員說的是跟金融有關"},{"start":6174.326,"end":6202.924,"text":"跟教育部有關 經濟部也有關勞動部 很多部會都有關我們會先跟他們一起開會討論找出一個共識節 最大公約數啦 這樣這叫做沐浴成熟這通過後 假多了這麼多天以後放假的人一定會很開心 可是該規劃的要未雨綢繆好 好不好OK 沒問題 好 謝謝董事長請回 請我們法務部正部長還有我們矯正署署長"},{"start":6204.572,"end":6205.138,"text":"部長、署長"},{"start":6214.686,"end":6230.113,"text":"本席在去年12月諮詢過我們署長就關於整個累進廚藝的一個問題那這個會期其實我也排了很多的一個監所去做一個考察就是要了解現行累進廚藝的一個機制的一個問題所以今天我來繼續追蹤我一直都認為說這個"},{"start":6237.093,"end":6250.722,"text":"案件一發生尤其是刑事犯罪發生以後社會常常是軒然大波但是等到這個法案判決確定以後我想這是已經到一個段落那是另外一個階段的一個開始也就是說我一直都認為"},{"start":6252.182,"end":6275.575,"text":"你犯罪者你受到應有的應報 應有的處罰 法案的一個判決這個其實都很合理啊 可是呢 當他成為一個受刑人到監獄去以後啊監獄應該就不是一個人性的一個終點反而他是一個救贖的一個起跑線那應該連續一個多年嘛所以呢 怎樣去構築更安全的一個社會安全網"},{"start":6276.636,"end":6278.398,"text":"不要說這些社會亂亂的了 選舉一個軒然大波你亂社會 國家給你硬爆 給你處罰 這合理啊可是呢 就是說 你這個監獄的門 你要關注這個罪犯 關注這些犯罪"},{"start":6294.229,"end":6312.535,"text":"可是他進去你也要敞開一個希望,給他一個希望所以我想請教署長,我剛才說的累進儲備的部分,外資電解你也說往廢除的方向去做一個前進那你們現在的進度,現在是到哪一個階段,是不是也跟大家來做一個報告"},{"start":6313.18,"end":6328.07,"text":"是 報告委員 我們本署在明天會針對離境處議再召開一次的會議我們希望在明天召開之後就可以等於可以完成 之後我們會盡快來報佈"},{"start":6330.894,"end":6355.415,"text":"是 我相信都是你們法務部你們做一些報告之後我們辦公室來討論 我覺得你們有道理我們持續跟你們追蹤這個其實都是整個獄政的一個改革立法院對你們表達一個支持另外我要繼續講的就是說這個以現在來看的話 雷神廚藝將壽星人按照不同的等級給予相應的一個權利你去看這個壽星人剛進去監獄的時候"},{"start":6357.617,"end":6383.564,"text":"有時候你會覺得那是跟受刑人之間那種連動覺得受刑人這個時候反而是最需要家人的一個支持你初期在服刑的時候你跟家人聯繫深刻去反省的階段但是我們現在的一個累進處役剛好相反你去限縮接近跟通信的一個機會跟教化的初衷其實我覺得都要背道而馳署長你的看法"},{"start":6386.741,"end":6412.715,"text":"我是同意委員的意見因為累進廚藝是在民國35年那時候制定的那現在因為時空的變化所以剛剛委員提的那個親情的關懷是很重要的我們將來在修法裡面除了這個之外包括說不合理的現象市級可以看電視 三級反而"},{"start":6414.795,"end":6437.883,"text":"收音機這個是以前是留聲機留聲機又等於收音機是三級才可以持有那我們現在的社會電視很普遍所以它四級就可以持有反過來會問說四級可以持有電視那三級才能夠持有收音機這個好像怪怪的"},{"start":6438.323,"end":6460.592,"text":"所以類似這種我們都會一併來檢討另外跟委員報告我們這個連線處理的重點會縮短刑期把他拉高跟外遇間一般間跟外遇間差異不要那麼大另外就是要跟假釋來脫鉤那這樣子我想對於我們整個管理運作會有正面的幫助"},{"start":6461.331,"end":6474.266,"text":"其實你有講到一個重點了啦,就是說,你說要這個跟假式來做一個透過,以你目前來看的話,你看那個教會師啊,這柏林你剛才聽到書長在說,就是變大就好像每一個教會師都變成一個,好像數學老師一樣,大家都在玩數字遊戲啊。"},{"start":6481.476,"end":6497.048,"text":"檢察官或者我們檢調人員司法機關去打擊犯罪這個都是符合社會的一個期待可是當他是一個受刑人進入到另外一個階段除非你要把他擁事把他做一個隔絕不然你不是要讓他再社會化嗎"},{"start":6498.129,"end":6505.192,"text":"是不是這樣說你現在來看的話你像刑刑累進處以裡面你根據的等級越高你那個縮刑的日數本來就越高的一個規定你只要要求達到二級才能提報去做一個假釋也就是說我們現在刑法七十七條的一個假釋你本來受徒刑的執行而有圈毀實據的話"},{"start":6517.037,"end":6529.345,"text":"有基督行你說二十五宗 有基督行二分之一累進到這個累犯是三分之二那你做監獄報警法務部的時候 那得以假釋來出獄可是以現在來看的話 你又要達到滿二級這就像書長你剛才說到的這個整個方向你要往哪裡去走我反而會覺得啊 這個都是值得我們修法的一個思考的一個方向不知道書長你會看我是怎樣"},{"start":6545.791,"end":6567.324,"text":"我們這一套累進除也好假釋也好是行之很久了當然我們會把它做適當的修正但是我們不是完全把它匯除我們是在監獄學習法有一個專章把可以適用的一些條文把它匯整後納進去當然不會自愛難行"},{"start":6569.105,"end":6587.819,"text":"我現在擔心的就是說其實這一套考核的一個制度啊你也很清楚了就變成混亂掉了你受刑人沒有辦法去了解到自己的一個分數的一個情況之下你整個變成大家在玩數字的一個遊戲啊那我在想啊就是說以現行的這一行政來看的話"},{"start":6589.025,"end":6607.117,"text":"不應該像以現在來看的話 就大部分都是比較類似於那種壓迫性的一個服從啦 倒不是從教化這個部分去造一個著眼講這個社會大政未必聽得下去啦 有的人認為說你這個犯罪啦 你本來就是受到這個報應 這個我都贊成"},{"start":6609.699,"end":6626.145,"text":"但是我都認為有好幾個階段好幾個階段除非啊監獄是完全要關注犯罪的地方不給這些受刑人敞開任何希望的地方那我就沒話講但是呢這個都值得我們這整個掌管最高這監獄行政的"},{"start":6627.405,"end":6641.586,"text":"法務部或者我們家政署這個地方一併來做一個思考啦畢竟我們也我看學者專家還有法務部我們都有那麼多的一個學者專家去做一個研究往更好的一個方向去走啦有時候"},{"start":6643.368,"end":6666.918,"text":"我們有委託兩家大學去研究我們得出一個很重要的結論我們會簡化考核制度因為我們經過幾次的一些修法確實太複雜了有的新任的教委師他還搞不太清楚所以我們會朝著簡化考核制度讓每個教委師更有效率更能夠保障受用人的權益"},{"start":6667.418,"end":6681.971,"text":"所以我該講的還是要講啦 不然我今天本集講的這一句話哪一天又有一個重大案件發生的時候把這句話又連結的話 那個都又是政治口水啦可是呢 該改革的方向還是要改革 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝莊瑞雄委員來 接下來請吳思瑤委員"},{"start":6703.663,"end":6722.778,"text":"好今天阿川朱祁那是不是多寬限一點時間因為有39案好有請李俊逸秘書長請劉建新秘書長還有任市長跟施部長都一起好了等一下就不用不好意思好請四位一起"},{"start":6724.209,"end":6744.381,"text":"好 大家早安喔 推動政策不應該有空窗期喔雖然是凍結 但凍結其實就是造成我們摯愛難行到現在今天已經是5月12號了我們對於很多業務 事實上已經有5個月半的時間沒有辦法如常來運作"},{"start":6745.942,"end":6758.274,"text":"那我特別也要說在野黨的委員說送來送來解凍案送來就解凍了事實上現在各個委員會在排審的只不過加總起來是11%的凍結數因為呢多數高達89%的凍結數必須送院會或者是設下更複雜的解凍門檻"},{"start":6769.244,"end":6780.776,"text":"所以現在即便我們今天在這裡快速的排案不過這只是一小小部分的解凍案但我們還是希望能夠順利來通過下一頁再下一頁"},{"start":6782.569,"end":6808.04,"text":"監察院李秘書長先你們針對總預算被惡棟惡山提出了釋憲事實上不只是惡山構成你們摯愛難行我這段時間去研究了包括蔡茂穎教授黃世新教授徐仁輝教授他們都提出了憲政的新的觀點他們主張凍結預算掩飾逾越憲法賦予立法院的預算審議權"},{"start":6809.921,"end":6835.215,"text":"以動帶刪是立法權侵犯行政權立法院就成了太上院甚至徐仁慧教授說凍結預算就是毀損預算的契約這些都違反了大法官264391520號解釋您可不可以再具體針對監察院提出的釋憲案我想應當除了刪解預算也還有凍結預算的部分您簡單說明一下"},{"start":6837.413,"end":6851.122,"text":"跟委員報告我們監察院有關憲法訴訟案我們已經在3月24號正式提出我們認為這一次立法院刪減預算違反到司法官大法官解釋的4至391還有585"},{"start":6853.843,"end":6875.174,"text":"然後613 632特別是632所謂的憲政機關的忠誠義務就是不能因為你的作為或不作為造成其他憲政機關無法運作那我們認為立法院所做的預算審查確實有這樣的效果所以我們監察院別無選擇我們只能提出憲法訴訟你們確實是下一頁"},{"start":6878.971,"end":6882.416,"text":"再下一頁你們確實是受災程度NO.198%喔我非常好奇啊今天雖然兩岸大概1036萬解凍但無助於你們98%山洞被你們這段時間監察院"},{"start":6894.331,"end":6913.292,"text":"能夠做什麼呢我跟吳委員報告一下今天的解凍案我們其實只有兩案一個是我們財申處印這個廉政專刊的錢468萬公職人員財產申報對公職人員財產申報另外是這個所謂的營建工程就是普及的維護嘛普及維護我們改管線"},{"start":6914.092,"end":6938.253,"text":"該管線我們去年省了15萬度所以我們還是希望它會通過那其他被刪除的部分其實是我們非常困擾所以現在包括我們所有的會議我們今年還有一個這個世界性的年會我們現在還在追這個預算到底要從何而來因為這是18個會員國參加那我們也希望趕快把這些預算能夠把它追回APOR年會"},{"start":6941.255,"end":6957.173,"text":"那個是750萬所以我們整個業務如果吳委員看到我手上這張表會很清楚我們議事業務被刪了百分之百調查巡查被刪了百分之百一般行政刪了百分之百我們國家人權刪了百分之九十七"},{"start":6958.134,"end":6976.105,"text":"那我們唯一留下的是財產申報但是財產申報所需要用的系統因為放在一般行政裡面也被全數刪除所以我們實在非常辛苦我們現在所有的調查還有我們的公務車都是靠我們委員自己支撐的那你現在每天隨身攜帶衛生紙嗎我衛生紙都擺在辦公室裡"},{"start":6981.209,"end":7009.584,"text":"非常的辛苦喔希望能夠順利解凍不過監察院只解凍了1036萬我們堅持的是我們要做到憲法賦予我們的責任還有陽光司法交代我們的任務其他你們98%的刪減我看根本就沒頂沒當我們很遺憾但是我們還是盡力爭取好這就是立法院成了太上院來癱瘓其他的憲法機關監察院我們認為每個憲政機關都有它的功能"},{"start":7010.845,"end":7025.078,"text":"在上會期用這個職權行使法來讓我們調查權不能動那我們只好訴訟,那訴訟我們也贏了第二會期用預算讓我們監察院不能動那我們希望也是透過憲法訴訟的部分來爭取我們的權益"},{"start":7027,"end":7045.657,"text":"好那監察院是開第一槍針對總預算來提出釋憲這一週民進黨團也會跟進好那請林秘書長請回接下來是考試院下一頁考試院我先聚焦你們被凍結的很大一筆主要在野黨的委員是說要"},{"start":7046.758,"end":7062.185,"text":"反霸凌可是卻來動相關可以做霸凌的預算第二個呢是我們軍公教的退府基金的改進方案但非常遺憾警察人員人事條例被二修通過了年改走回頭路下一頁再下一頁"},{"start":7063.991,"end":7092.157,"text":"我想問一下喔你們已經送出了公務人員保障法考機法還有安慰辦法嗎如果沒有被凍結預算你們就會Pending就會擺爛嗎還是原本你們就會負責任的把它送出來我記得還沒審預算之前我就一直在關心你們一開始就保證再保證這是重要的事情反霸凌制度下手相關的手法你們就會做在野黨委員為什麼要"},{"start":7093.157,"end":7121.316,"text":"用反霸凌的名義來動你們的預算呢來 米少我們周鴻健院長在立法院人事統一權的時候被質詢到相關的議題就已經承諾了嘛對 那時候大家就很關切這個霸凌法制化的問題那我們在立法院來備詢的時候也都有做相關的承諾所以當時我們抓的進度就是大概半年在這個會期五月上旬送過來所以我們在五月一號院會通過之後"},{"start":7121.876,"end":7150.127,"text":"5月6號送進來換言之在野黨委員去動這筆預算毫無道理因為原本你們的time table就是要做嘛立法委員的監督可以用各種方法包括本席我也這張PPT是我早就在業務報告的時候質詢你們的我也早就追蹤到你們會在這個會期送書我們希望下個會期完成修法甚至如果這個會期有研會的話也許更快也不一定嘛好 下一頁"},{"start":7151.147,"end":7171.616,"text":"那現在我問一下市部長這跟人事總署一起的私謠一直在催生的心理假這也是落實賴總統的這個心理健康的相關政策我們研議了請假辦法什麼時候可以上路這個比加發加增4加1天假我認為更重要"},{"start":7172.51,"end":7197.987,"text":"我想總署那邊完成那個研議完以後就送到我們這邊那我們現在正在進行預告預告完以後呢我們就會送到考試院去做最後的一個確認考試院確認以後再跟行政院做會嫌我想應該不會太慢啦所以現在布送到院考試院要快一點喔然後考試院再送到行政院來會嫌我想那個蘇人事長我們都同意吧兩位"},{"start":7199.775,"end":7212.748,"text":"都是主事者 明年上路公務體系的薪禮價是不是可以期待 是不是 YES一定是的 肯定是的好 很好 謝謝你們的答案我不需要凍結預算我也可以催生公務人員的薪禮價因為我可以透過我"},{"start":7217.828,"end":7232.124,"text":"鍥而不捨的監督各項會議達到這個政策的目的下一頁還有一件事情我要提醒一下退府基金我多次來說退府基金我們需要下一頁做到"},{"start":7234.968,"end":7255.955,"text":"退府基金呢對於投資碳足跡居然是所有的高包括勞保新制的勞退就制的勞退郵政儲金我們都是投資金額裡頭投資碳足跡最高的所以用國家的退府基金來投資高碳產業我們一定要檢討下一頁"},{"start":7257.916,"end":7278.616,"text":"所以氣候相關財務揭露TCFD國內各金控已經上路了綠色金融3.0也納入了退府基金要跟上我質詢過今天有一筆解凍案就是跟退府基金的管理相關可不可以正面的告訴我你們這方面已經在努力跟上了是 部長"},{"start":7279.316,"end":7305.585,"text":"剛剛委員報我們已經在努力而且我們已經正式出版一個報告那我們也要召開一個會議那未來我們的投資策略組合裡面就會把這議題也一併會拿進去也謝謝委員一直在關心這個比今天在野黨委員凍結你們退府基金要你們針對投資的決策會議紀錄公開還重要的多還重要的多我希望你們能夠趕快跟上好我最後一個題目再佔用我一分鐘來人事長來我到國會"},{"start":7309.881,"end":7326.817,"text":"下一頁 下一頁 下一頁人事總長 人事長最近大家都在關心國安漏洞所以針對公務體系的一般忠誠查核或是特查一般查核是你們進行特查是調查局那最近我們都針對國會"},{"start":7329.42,"end":7346.983,"text":"國會成為國安漏洞的死角那天我們在質詢了調查局他們希望能夠針對現在1328個特查的職位要擴充到2336個但是還是沒有納入立法院的職員工那您的看法呢"},{"start":7348.179,"end":7359.108,"text":"我想這個部分還是要尊重立法院內部的一個規範那您也支持如果立法院訂定自己的特查辦法那後續你們跟調查局分工上大家來協力進行"},{"start":7360.205,"end":7382.381,"text":"如果是立法院通過的話我想特查這部分就是調查局他一定會按照整個規定去執行那需要的人力缺口我們會給現在您是督導管理所有公務體系人員的這個大家長您認為立法院的職員工現在被排除在特查之外"},{"start":7383.442,"end":7398.418,"text":"立法院的職員工接觸機密的機會非常高您認不認為來督促立法院訂定特查辦法基本上我們還是要尊重立法院的你知不支持嘛否則國安漏洞就在立法院嘛"},{"start":7399.267,"end":7421.154,"text":"因為委員也講得很清楚 因為在立法院接觸到精品資料的場合還有那個人員也非常的多啦我希望任市長您要更積極正面一點不能因為特查辦法是調查局在進行你就好像沒藥沒金我要說的是所有公務體系同仁都適用於公務人員任用法"},{"start":7421.914,"end":7449.753,"text":"公務人員服務法它適用的法規是一致的沒有道理只有立法院的職員工語文機密這麼高他們卻長期被排除所以我具體要求調查局已經從1328個特查職位要擴充到2336個但是還是排除了立法院的職員工我要求要納入而我也支持立法院要自行來克責自我的自律來訂定特查辦法"},{"start":7450.353,"end":7457.397,"text":"我會支持我會努力希望人事總署也更正向我們也會支持我們也會支持好謝謝那就質詢到這謝謝好謝謝吳思耀委員質詢接下來請王洪威委員質詢好謝謝主席我請我們的人事總請人事長人事長"},{"start":7484.895,"end":7499.571,"text":"委員長好 委員長早在上個星期五那麼立法院通過了4加1的方案那麼就是增加了國定假日那我想請問一下到目前為止"},{"start":7500.832,"end":7510.477,"text":"到目前為止人事長有沒有接獲行政院的任何的指示或者我們人事總處有提出應該對立法院上個星期五的這個法案的決議要提出附議"},{"start":7519.11,"end":7545.778,"text":"跟委員報告這兩個部分第一個部分行政院沒有做任何指示那第二個部分是我們人總已經針對跟今年有關的三個節日一個是928 1025還有1225那這三個節日剛好一個是禮拜六一個禮拜天一個禮拜禮拜四那我們也內部在檢討今年的廉價的方法那個總統三讀公告以後我們要怎麼進行"},{"start":7547.178,"end":7574.532,"text":"這是第一個部分第二個部分同樣按照往例的話明年的行事例我們會在6月30號以前簽行政院對外公告所以我們現在是分兩個部分一個是針對今年下半年一個是針對明年上半年對然後這是我們現在已經在做一些幕僚作業好所以到目前為止在行政院至少您所聽到的沒有要復議的這個任何的規劃跟想法"},{"start":7575.411,"end":7582.64,"text":"我都沒有聽過這個如果行政院來問您的意見您知不支持就是贊成要提出復印呢"},{"start":7584.385,"end":7608.607,"text":"我覺得這是行政院會去中整考量他不會問我這個啦好 所以那對上個星期五我們所通過的法案您個人是支持的嗎 人事總署是支持的嗎我想公務員有依法按照法律的規範去執行相關公務的一個責任而且這個法的主管機關事實上是在內政部啦"},{"start":7609.548,"end":7613.61,"text":"那我們是背著我們這樣的一個法來去做相關的規劃可是人事總署到時候要排駕齁 待會我會提到就是說其實在整個修法過程裡面那主管機關是內政部但是勞動部其實人事總署的意見也非常重要那當時勞動部跟人事這個內政部之間是怎麼樣踢皮球"},{"start":7628.419,"end":7643.327,"text":"那因為大家還是關心假的問題如果以我們下半年來看的話下半年來看就是可能是十月份十月份因為碰到中秋節跟雙十節所以呢在一個星期會出現兩個連假對不對"},{"start":7646.303,"end":7672.717,"text":"包括大概九月底一直到十月份這裡面會有三次的連假所以再加上十月二十五號光復節的部分放假的話那是不是十月份會出現比較多的連假是不是會集中在九月底跟十月份還是說你會把它有可能把它分散到十一月因為現在十一月沒有任何的連假"},{"start":7676.949,"end":7693.459,"text":"詳細的情況我們還是會找教育部啦還有經濟部啦 相關部會來因為你只要一調整的話像國際金融市場你如果一調整的話跟國際沒有辦法接軌對整個金融的運作事實上都會有一些影響跟衝擊"},{"start":7694.36,"end":7700.662,"text":"好 了解 所以因為我在現在看我們的形勢力應該是在 您說在9月底到到這個10月初這段時間的廉價比較多所以我覺得這個部分可能就是怎麼樣這個廉價放起來 包含就是各行各業還有勞工能夠能夠充分的利用好不好 因為10月25號其實因為928是因為"},{"start":7720.329,"end":7734.947,"text":"就是本來是只有老師放假 928他就會面臨到所以怎麼樣把它調整 讓大家能夠很珍惜這真的很得來不易的這麼多年 將近十年這樣的大家爭取來的一個假期"},{"start":7735.968,"end":7739.69,"text":"那另外我要特別講到就是說我剛才為什麼去問要不要復議因為柯總召接受媒體的訪問的時候他竟然說如果因為我們知道馬上就有一個大罷免他說哎呀不用提復議反正等到國民黨這些立委被罷免之後那麼明年可以把這些價再改回來所以很多的勞工朋友擔心"},{"start":7761.142,"end":7763.824,"text":"擔心是不是到時候整個大罷免的這個之後然後呢如果在野黨立委如果因為這個罷免之後席次變少然後又由民進黨團取得多數席次然後再把價收回去"},{"start":7778.052,"end":7796.854,"text":"又把原來我們的4加1的價收回去我想任市長你覺得這樣子合理嗎因為如果最後行政院是沒有提出復議的話然後把價收回去合理嗎我覺得這個應該直接問柯總召比較清楚因為他也沒有跟我講"},{"start":7797.515,"end":7799.976,"text":"他也沒有跟你講你同意他這種謬論嗎你同意他這種意見嗎每一個委員的聲音我們都非常尊重我不能用正面跟負面的方式來評價這樣非常不禮貌"},{"start":7811.423,"end":7827.986,"text":"我覺得柯總召這種方式事實上真的沒有尊重我們廣大的勞工另外就是這一次的4加1的方案老師說我覺得行政院目前的表現是比較正常的其實我基本上肯定我們人事總署立刻針對可能馬上面臨的928教師節跟10月25號的光復節這些假期趕快再做規劃但是我要特別提到了"},{"start":7839.508,"end":7860.838,"text":"就是說在這個我們整個的法案的過程裡面我剛才在講其實呢在因為這個法案不是現在突然憑空冒出來的其實呢在從上上會期就已經開始有委員相繼提出來不同的法案那而且呢可能各個委員提出來說實在的可以說是"},{"start":7861.158,"end":7874.443,"text":"其實是五花八門因為每一位委員他在乎的這個放假日是不一樣的別原住民委員他比較在意的是原住民紀念日那別說陳一貞委員他在意823他認為對金門是比較有意義的譬如說像麥一貞委員因為他是新移民他對於這個移民日國際移民日他認為應該放假我們尊重"},{"start":7886.448,"end":7895.572,"text":"每一位委員他的一個價值觀但是我們都做出了整合也非常感謝各位委員他們在提案的過程中我講的這幾個委員他們都有提案所以都可以進行討論但是我們可以看到在整個的法案通過之後民進黨立委竟然說他們提的假日都被拒絕了"},{"start":7913.579,"end":7926.601,"text":"被國民黨在野黨封殺了 這個我們就不理解了第一個 有沒有提案 沒有提案第二個 有提案自己又撤案第三個 在過程裡面 你有沒有提到臨時動議或者修正動議 通通都沒有提到也就是事實上在整個的這個法案的過程裡面民進黨團沒有任何的提案"},{"start":7939.904,"end":7943.725,"text":"也沒有修正動議事實上甚至有四個法案原來有提案自己又撤回了自己撤回所以我必須要講在這個過程裡面那麼行政院我覺得到目前為止是有尊重立法院最後的我們的一個法案的審查權"},{"start":7961.07,"end":7989.692,"text":"但是在民進黨黨團裡面提到說民進黨團提到的假日民進黨委員是完全被拒絕錯這完全是造謠因為你沒有提案請問如何被拒絕我剛才舉的這幾個例子這些委員他們自己都有提案但是我們感謝他們在這個提案的過程裡面那麼大家意見可以被整合大家意見可以被討論"},{"start":7991.013,"end":8002.122,"text":"我覺得這才是一個修法過程裡面應該有的態度所以在最後呢一點點時間所以我想請教一下那個任市長所以我們現在這個整個的以現在來講到目前為止行政院針對4加1的這些國定假日放假日那麼現在目前是會執行嘛對不對"},{"start":8017.202,"end":8044.149,"text":"我跟委員報告一下 事實上我們這兩天的幕僚週月已經排好未來的十年的假大概原來是每一年的休假會115、116嘛那現在排出未來十年從明年開始大概會120到121大概每一年會落在120點跟121點我們有先試排出來好 所以就是根據我們星期五所通過的法案來做來做排好 謝謝我覺得"},{"start":8046.95,"end":8057.78,"text":"這樣子人事總署現在的這個態度基本上我們我想所有的勞工朋友是非常感謝也不只勞工朋友包含公務人員嘛我記得那時候我還問過那個人事長說針對勞動節的部分是不是應該全國性放假 對不對"},{"start":8066.147,"end":8072.992,"text":"或者是教師節的部分是不是應該全國性放假因為我剛剛在講就是說因為這兩個節日常常一個家庭裡面同時還有勞工他同時有那個教師那這樣的話這個價都會不一樣讓大家不要有困擾所以我覺得基本上我支持跟肯定現在人事總署的一個態度"},{"start":8089.242,"end":8098.85,"text":"當然我也希望任市長如果行政院有任何這種複製的提議的話您可以本於你的專業然後提出不用複製了因為事實上人事總署已經在做一些相當好的一個安排 好不好謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":8106.196,"end":8120.26,"text":"好 謝謝王宏威委員接下來我先做會議程序的宣告啦稍後在我們鄭天才委員詢答完畢以後我們休息五分鐘接下來請陳培宜委員來進行詢答"},{"start":8132.588,"end":8139.092,"text":"好 謝謝主席 這邊要先請人事總長 謝謝請人事長好你叫總長 你長而已 你叫總長人事長啦 抱歉抱歉我不總啦 是人比較總而已 人比較總而已說得好 不然你衝到變大了 總長的外公沒有人事長好好 來 謝謝"},{"start":8161.088,"end":8179.462,"text":"我們來往下看第一張我想要跟你討論其實因為面對境外勢力的關係那我們不斷在談公務員相關的查核但是過往我們只要聽到查核兩個字好像其實就會有不好的印象我們來看一下這個歷史背景我之前看到你們說要請調查局擴大查核範圍"},{"start":8183.325,"end":8209.721,"text":"还要针对所谓涉及国家安全重大利益的各个部会的幕僚长以上的人员还有相关的机要聘雇人员还有他的财务状况有亲密互动状况都要列入查核内容而且还要增加查核频率我觉得这个态度是对的也是好的可是我们来往下看如果因为当时你们说要在两周内有相关的办法我自己有点担心两周内"},{"start":8210.481,"end":8227.087,"text":"其實是有困難的怎麼說如果我們要開始做這件事情我們都會希望它可以越來越好而且這個做下去的事情是真的有意義的那根據施老師也就是現在的權序部部長施老師的一篇文章我們可以看到假設我們要借鏡"},{"start":8227.987,"end":8243.013,"text":"美國的經驗我們來看一下有哪些美國的經驗現在在台灣實施可能會有相關的困難而那個困難可能來自於國人的見解或者是公務人員的理解或者是大家有沒有社會共識來第一個"},{"start":8244.874,"end":8263.319,"text":"時間有點太短了我來看一下這個是美國聯邦政府用人查核資訊網頁前一頁這個網頁裡面他談了非常多的事情他們做了一個很重要的示範用人查核不限於公務員他必須要有好的分級分等查核這件事情我認為我們國人可能都還沒有共識"},{"start":8264.219,"end":8287.339,"text":"接下來看到查核對象的設定在美國目前是用所擔任的職務工作內容來決定應受查核的強度不管他是不是公務人員可是在台灣我們是以僱傭關係來決定有沒有受到規範目前只有公務人員的身份其他身份幾乎都不用再來就是我剛剛一直跟您說的社會的態度"},{"start":8289.08,"end":8316.013,"text":"過往台灣對於這件事情認為是一種政治監管政治的控制這當然是來自於戒嚴時代大家對戒嚴時代所遺留下來的恐懼跟認知導致於我們相關的行政作為很寬鬆內容也相對簡單也就因為如此我剛剛才會跟您說我們看到你們新聞稿對外說兩個禮拜內會有相關進度其實我是擔心的也就是說如果我們希望做得更全面"},{"start":8316.733,"end":8330.633,"text":"其實兩個禮拜內可以是一個短時間的規劃但是長期來看如果為了面對這麼複雜的國安情勢我認為我們要做更多的努力跟功課我們來看一下用美國案例再往下看"},{"start":8331.969,"end":8354.298,"text":"任職前他們要做基本背景調查我們往下看發現這個基本背景非常的多包含曾經居住曾經工作曾經求學的地方還有他們的名稱還有任何軍職的經歷警方曾經留下來的記錄點點點點點點甚至第一次入職的人都還要留下指紋而這個表格SF85要寫到十幾頁"},{"start":8357.159,"end":8373.514,"text":"我認為這件事情真的在台灣還沒有共識但我們是支持的前提之下如何一讓社會有共識二讓公務人員還有不限於公務人員的人都必須要有這個認知什麼叫做不限於公務人員的人我們來看一下"},{"start":8374.755,"end":8390.303,"text":"現在在美國的分類我們可以看到它分成非機敏的位置或者是可以接觸到所謂公眾資料資訊的人的位置或者是接觸國安等級而把人做分級甚至是他們已經做到的事情講到這邊我想要問人長"},{"start":8393.646,"end":8420.74,"text":"我剛說這是來自於全序部施部長他的一個臉書發文所以我們再去做了很多的研究去看了美國的資料下一張我想要問我講了這麼多你可以聽得出來我是支持的但我認為我們要更多進一步的規劃跟討論讓這件事情不管是短期中期長期我們如何建立一套台灣適用全方位的政府雇用人員安全查核可不可以請您說說看"},{"start":8421.809,"end":8447.859,"text":"我跟委員報告因為剛好六七年前我有接觸過美國的這一套那查核的就是以國防相關的因為美國國防工業很多都是委託民間在做它相關的一個查核的一個procedure事實上一個人最少要三個月的一個特查的時間包含健康、情況、財務它的面向非常多我看過那個每一個人的查核大概一分錢這樣"},{"start":8449.359,"end":8468.546,"text":"SS80是10幾頁然後更多就是像你說的一分錢這樣所以我們都認同嘛這個強度很重要但是我們如何在未來促成我們有沒有機會往這裡去規劃我覺得這一次一個很大的一個突破就是我們不用人眼生分而是他接觸機密的等級"},{"start":8469.326,"end":8491.379,"text":"因為有些是業用人員主任秘書以上的他裡面有可能有一些業聘顧問一些業用這些臨時事實上都會進來就以他赦密的程度我覺得這一步是一個非常重要同樣的我們也有把財務查核在經過當事人同意以後我們再去進行因為財務"},{"start":8493.06,"end":8508.411,"text":"財務的這一塊以前沒有特別去highlight那有些是財務有問題的所以他可能會變成對方的一個設定的一個標的啦所以我想這一次也做了很多的一個進步的地方"},{"start":8510.264,"end":8537.431,"text":"我剛說沒有錯 就這個部分我絕對是認同可是我認為更長期來看我們可以做得更完整所以這個部分也要拜託你們帶回去研議如同你剛說的 你自己都看過美國相關的資料厚厚的一本十幾頁甚至幾十頁他所希望建立的就是所有這些公務機關的相關人員他必須要對國家有所忠誠而且因為他領的是納稅人的薪水不管他在哪一個位置上只要他有相關的可能性我們就必須要做防範 好不好好 謝謝喔 來"},{"start":8542.334,"end":8548.243,"text":"謝謝主席好 聲音還給我好 接下來我要先請保訓會 謝謝你稍等一下 看那個關你有沒有關來 保訓會 謝謝"},{"start":8557.227,"end":8582.332,"text":"好我要跟你們討論關於公務員員現場職場霸凌的問題之前我已經提醒過了關於霸凌這個問題絕對不要台灣有兩個制度一個是公務員一個是勞工那目前在保訓會的資料裡面我們看到面對職場霸凌受害人如果要救濟只能內部申訴而沒有辦法向保訓會提出外部救濟來看下一張對不對我現在講的資料是對的對不對主委"},{"start":8591.02,"end":8607.757,"text":"對我們關於性平的部分我們可以做行政處分可是在職場霸凌的部分因為之前我們知道要修職安衛辦法還有公務人員權益保障法我們要談到所謂霸凌的定義然後相關的程序還有可不可以納入免職的要件這是我們未來要修法的方向"},{"start":8608.217,"end":8629.009,"text":"但是在修法之前 因為修法可能還要一段時間 半年到一年不等喔你們可能還在蒐集相關意見 還有相關程序要跑可是在這之前 職場霸凌在保訓會內部的相關人事行政行為一覽表裡面 它是一個管理措施也就是它只能在自己的整個機關裡面 不斷不斷 最多就是到部長"},{"start":8630.029,"end":8641.174,"text":"然後就沒有了 沒有辦法做外部的行政處分我認為這個對於現在公務人員的士氣是一個打擊我想要請保勛會員回答一下你們怎麼看這一題我們可不可以有機會做更友善的設計"},{"start":8642.52,"end":8666.66,"text":"好 跟委員報告目前的現行法制呢 它現在機關裡面呢進行了這個申訴之後 如果它對於這個申訴是不服的 它可以向保訓會進行這個再申訴那它如果再不服的話呢 它可以走行政救濟那當然因為這個目前的人事行政的行政行為裡面呢 過去在"},{"start":8667.18,"end":8693.854,"text":"有關於職場霸凌的部分呢他是要看他主要的這個救濟的標的是屬於人事行政的部分還是屬於管理措施對所以呢他也一樣當他不服這個保訓會所做出來的這個審議決定他可以走行政救濟那如果行政救濟他再不服他也可以像一般的這個部分呢進行這個透過民事形式"},{"start":8694.634,"end":8716.261,"text":"的這個就是去找行政訴訟嘛對不對對可是我認為這個相對現在對公務人員其實是不友善的因為你們是透過4字7785的解釋做出這個決議對嗎是對就是人事行政行為的這個修訂在100這個09年的時候我們根據這個行政程序法裡面對於哪些是屬於可以列為這個"},{"start":8718.062,"end":8734.928,"text":"人事行政的行政行為哪些是列為管理的措施來進行了一個比較全盤的檢視但是的確像委員所提到的未來有關於職場霸凌它的成立與否"},{"start":8735.945,"end":8744.568,"text":"是不是也要納為所謂的這個副省的項目目前會裡頭也正在研議當中目前正在研議所以你們有規劃相關進度嗎研議的結果你們本來壓在什麼時間點會有相關結果或者是修正討論的可能性跟委員報告因為我們這個考試院呢這一個陳榮剛秘書長提到那"},{"start":8755.911,"end":8780.508,"text":"保訊會目前最重要的事情就是已經把這個安慰辦法送行政院會嫌然後送立法院那接著回來的這當中會涉及到很多的相關的執法我們目前已經盤點出相關的執法要修哪些也包括委員所提到的這一個有關職場霸凌未來是不是這個申訴跟它的成立與否未來是不是也要變成是人事行政的"},{"start":8781.969,"end":8795.564,"text":"這個一覽表裡面的一項對目前這個也在我們的盤點規劃裡面好所以聽起來你剛回應我的是修法的部分啦但是我說其實這個內部人事行政行為一覽表其實你們就可以做一個比較快速的決定啦是"},{"start":8796.124,"end":8825.223,"text":"因為時間有限我們也許之後會後再討論好嗎但是我認為在修法之前我們就可以有比較積極的動作為什麼讓人事長留在你身邊是因為其實在人事總署裡面就有一個相關的案例他後來是被計量搭過免職相關的那個案例我就不再細講所以我認為其實已經構成相關要件可以往下討論不要只有等到修法我們給基層的公務員更多的鼓勵在這件事情上我認為這絕對是一個正面加分的行為好不好"},{"start":8825.723,"end":8849.928,"text":"好 謝謝那保訊這邊請回那人長 不好意思 再留一會兒主席給我一點時間 謝謝保訊還是要留著 對不起我要講那個友善育兒職場的事情我每次來這邊 只要你們有出現我就會問到友善育兒職場因為這個是非常重要的政策它不會只有在私人企業它在公務機關也非常的重要之前我們看到有一個個案"},{"start":8850.868,"end":8864.517,"text":"有一個外交部的同仁他在他派駐在俄羅斯然後他的過往的工作狀況也非常好一向都是被打假等可是在他懷孕那一年請生產假的時候呢卻接到他的主管電話他當時給他打了一個疑等甚至在相關電話的對話過程當中呢這個主管還跟他說相對起來就是因為你有請假嘛相對比起來真的工作量減少了嘛打烤雞這個比例喔"},{"start":8879.187,"end":8903.189,"text":"從來沒有行諸於文字的比例 你也是知道的啦而且還有一定的比例要給一等我沒有要拿個案跟你們討論我要談的是 過往在公務員職場當中的文化確實對於生育這件事情是比較不友善的但是這幾年整個行政團隊 整個行政院機關 包含總統都公開宣示我們要做一個友善育兒這件事情 它需要逐步推進"},{"start":8903.869,"end":8919.603,"text":"逐年改善甚至所有第一線基層公務人員的主管們他們也要建立這個認知而這件事情我想要拜託任總跟保訓你們可不可以公開告訴我們公開的呼籲這件事情真的不要再發生"},{"start":8921.922,"end":8945.99,"text":"這個我們一定會再加強宣導就如同委員剛才提的啦這幾年我們一而再再而三再宣導你針對請異因的啦生產的啦或者賠產的產檢的這一些不得為不利的處分嘛我們一直在強調如果有這樣的案子的時候我們一定會去查清楚因為我覺得不能因為人家"},{"start":8949.671,"end":8975.783,"text":"穿甲、顧孩子還是性善,你又去人家打口氣而且還有一點,這些營養裡面我們都不列入我們家庭的比例裡面所以它的影響是很大的當然會有一種情況,當事人的表現,而不是因為他請異因留庭或者他的生產、或者賠產、或者產檢這一些我們會有一套很客觀的標準"},{"start":8977.308,"end":8985.798,"text":"謝謝袁市長你這麼正面公開的承諾跟回應我認為這件事情真的對公務員很重要保訓這邊呢可不可以說一下你們的態度跟立場"},{"start":8986.773,"end":9011.932,"text":"跟委員報告這個有關於這個支持我們這個公務人員他行使他應有的權利呢這絕對是保訓會呢最關切的事情那當他因為他行使他的權利而遭受到不利對待的時候呢他就可以來申請這個附審他可以打救濟好那這個我們呢有關於這個部分呢今天陳委員的提醒我們在未來的這個"},{"start":9012.712,"end":9021.374,"text":"今年的宣福島案例裡面也會特別去提醒人事人員有關於這方面的注意以上 謝謝好 謝謝你們這麼正面的回應最後一個友善職場這個要給我們很重要的空間友善職場的職場托育空間之前我已經問過人事長保訓請回 謝謝我之前已經問過人事長你跟我說他其實是一個很重要的行政參考"},{"start":9034.557,"end":9048.056,"text":"但是因為它不是硬的規定所以目前大家真的就只有拿來做參考我幫您整理出來目前在近三到五年的公共興建工程裡面在人口稠密區連淡水這個地方114年啟動的"},{"start":9049.838,"end":9063.13,"text":"招標作業裡面都沒有列入所謂有篩育的空間那甚至在新竹市北區我相信你相信新竹市北區絕對是人口稠密116年完工一樣近三到五年招標一樣也沒有整個十個案子裡面呢"},{"start":9065.812,"end":9089.157,"text":"只有四個他有列入他有把這個友善職場的職場托育空間列入空間規劃而且他有真的去規劃但是有六個是沒有的我要講這件事情其實真的很可惜我知道已經有相關的辦法但是各個單位甚至國發會或是工程會都只當成參考我們沒有列為一個重要的推動的政策任長可不可以講一下你的態度"},{"start":9091.83,"end":9119.587,"text":"謝謝委員給我這樣的一個資料我想會後我們會親自去查因為政部長也在這裡我剛才看到有幾個是華為部的我們一起來處理應該是說這件事情它跟工程會跟國發會有關我認為我們更積極的去宣導這件事情甚至列為一個重要的考核絕對是一個對基層公務人員非常友善的事情還有我剛剛說了關於內部針對生育育兒不友善我們相關的規劃報告有機會在一個月內給我們辦公室嗎"},{"start":9121.362,"end":9142.518,"text":"好 OK 沒問題好 謝謝委員長 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝陳培宇委員都要不小心把你按到你的聲音所以多還你一分鐘這個友善職場生育當然不能是一個扣分的理由不加分國安危機都已經說不過去了來 接下來請鄭天才委員詢答你給我笑一笑 多給你一分鐘"},{"start":9151.212,"end":9175.649,"text":"好 稍微我們各位委員有請這個人事長請人事長還有考選部部長考選部情緒部也一起上來委員早好 早這個公務員服務法第二條我先請教那個人事長人事長"},{"start":9177.042,"end":9203.861,"text":"公務員服務法第二條本法適用於受有奉給之無五職公務員及公務員事業機構純勞工以外之人員這個在人事行政總署的系統裡面除了這個公務員你們有對不對有嗎公務員的資料有那個公務員事業的這個部分你們有嗎"},{"start":9206.755,"end":9234.488,"text":"在你們的系統裡面我請教一下委員你指的是公營事業是哪一方面的資料就是公務員服務法第二條所定義的公務員公營事業就是從勞工以外的人員都是都是公務員因為公務員服務法第二條是很廣義的前序部有嗎你們的系統裡面有嗎"},{"start":9236.897,"end":9263.568,"text":"我們只會有要送省的一個資料好 所以人事好 我的我的這樣啦 董事長我們先看接下來的公職人員選舉罷免法第77條規定現役軍人服替代役之現役役男或公務人員不得為罷免提議被罷免案的提議人所以呢"},{"start":9265.451,"end":9281.186,"text":"這個中央選舉委員會或是地方選舉委員會收到罷免案的時候會請人事行政總署查核這個提議人有沒有剛才所講的公務員服務法的第二條"},{"start":9284.335,"end":9302.416,"text":"我跟委員報告我們部確實有接受這個中選會如果他們覺得有會送給我們查他是不是公務人員這個事情對那你們有查核到因為你剛已經說明嘛你的系統只有我們只有有送審的嘛送審的公務人員我們確實有這我了解對對"},{"start":9303.337,"end":9330.046,"text":"那我是要我們沒有在查核這個你們沒有在查核這個因為中選會也沒有命當好這個我有打電話給中選會過他說他們都有跟今年就起碼今年有跟你們開過會回去查核我們是有開過會但是他沒有幫我們去查所以是給前西部前西部有收到這樣人事行政總署確定一下"},{"start":9332.381,"end":9334.903,"text":"所以我才問你人事行政總署到底有沒有公營事業機構的廣義的公務人員你們有沒有這個資料"},{"start":9358.547,"end":9386.15,"text":"供應事業蠻好查的供應事業的部分也有一併查了我們系統裡面我們去串聯也有去查以後這個早一點同仁要早一點跟你講不然浪費時間我們看這個人事行政總署跟那個情緒部就請回座考險部這個有關上次我在這裡也質詢了"},{"start":9388.842,"end":9399.429,"text":"針對公務人員特考 原住民公務人員特考 從110年不足而入企57111年不足而入企55名 112年不足而入企77名 113年不足而入企79名"},{"start":9410.899,"end":9439.91,"text":"都是非常高的一個不足額入企非常可惜有這些缺額卻沒有入企原住民很重要的就是像土木工程是最多的財稅行政、經建行政、農業行政這些的額都很多非常可惜上次你的報告裡面也特別提到"},{"start":9442.801,"end":9467.135,"text":"說這個兩院院級院級的協商怎麼樣去協助促成能夠解決這些問題這是今年3月27號因為我之前有關心過所以你們有特別提到這個在報告裡面請問一下現在目前進度怎麼樣公務員報告5月5號有特別在行政工程委員會要召開一個跨院的會議"},{"start":9468.035,"end":9482.998,"text":"那裡面有特別針對原住民特別是土木工程類科那目前我們會希望說這個要結合教育端然後最好也能夠跟原民會一起看有沒有動用資源特別是針對因為我們大概知道是東部那邊的那一個"},{"start":9484.92,"end":9499.699,"text":"那因為那邊的目前缺乏高等教育大專校園缺乏對應科系或對應的學程專門針對原住民來強化培育我們希望能夠下一步朝這個方向來努力所以這個上次的會議是你們主動的嗎"},{"start":9501.176,"end":9528.618,"text":"那個是由跨 然後5月5號這個是由跨院兩個院一起召開那是由公共工程委員會是公共工程委員會召集對 那行政院是由公共工程委員會好 那個 這個部長因為行政 公共工程委員會我認為它主要是針對土木工程的啦所以事實上還有其他的類科所以這個部分 這個部分要請這個因為他們不會知道"},{"start":9529.618,"end":9553.974,"text":"所以要請這個考選部這邊能夠把這樣的資訊能夠讓他們知道譬如說這個農業部或者是這個用人的單位這個部分當然因為高目考都沒有問題啦可能啦我不知道但是基層的像原住民行政特考就有這方面這個切合都很可惜好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":9557.622,"end":9577.939,"text":"好 謝謝鄭天才委員 你說的有什麼 你那是不足而已你看台東那個國產署 高考 普考 放榜都有了 都舉辦了 入局 台東沒人要去社會不一樣啦 進步了啦 所以這個公務人員的能力確實要珍惜啦 來 接下來"},{"start":9583.583,"end":9607.929,"text":"好 謝謝我們鄭天才委員接下來我們請鄭 鄭全我剛才是宣告鄭天才委員耍了休息五分鐘下次鄭天才的質詢耍手也不必 不能讓你來好 我們現在休息五分鐘吧謝謝"},{"start":9973.248,"end":9990.021,"text":"好 我們現在繼續詢答 接下來請鄭正全 鄭正全委員鄭委員不在 鄭正全 鄭正全委員鄭正全委員不在好 接下來有請我們最有氣質的翁曉琳委員詢答你又笑 我覺得俄羅斯人就少受罪"},{"start":9998.091,"end":10013.367,"text":"謝謝莊委員每次都給我鼓勵這是真心的今天因為是針對整個預算的詢答所以我就事論事就是針對預算的部分那首先我想先請人事長請蘇人事長"},{"start":10020.342,"end":10042.947,"text":"委員長人事長好我想我首先先問您一個就是我們在上禮拜通過了今年日與假日實施條例那麼我有看到新聞上面您有說這次的這個通過的國定假日的修法會有一些治案難行的地方是不是可以請您說明一下為什麼會有治案難行"},{"start":10044.149,"end":10052.534,"text":"沒有自然難行所以我們現在多增加的五天的國定假日人事總署這裡應該是可以做適當的安排嗎"},{"start":10053.732,"end":10082.098,"text":"因為整個法令就是等總統三讀通過以後我們會按照整個法令的規定怎樣我們就事實上我們前幾天事實上已經有示牌了一些可能未來假日的一些他會落在哪一個位置然後相關的細節我們已經有做第一版的一個示牌好那所以聽您這樣說的話應該行政院不會針對這個案子提起復議案吧"},{"start":10083.954,"end":10103.892,"text":"很抱歉我沒有辦法幫行政院來答候這個不過好我從您剛剛的回答理念大概可以知道現在民進黨政府應該是不會針對這個案提起復議如果提起復議的話不就是成為全民公敵了嗎好那接下來呢我有接下來就針對兩個預算案的部分在這次審查預算的"},{"start":10105.933,"end":10133.454,"text":"其實有兩個當然跟人總的案子很多啦那麼其中有兩個案子是本行比較關心的就是當時我們有這個凍結一個人總的有關於人事行政政策規劃執行及發展案的這1000萬的案子那時候就是有請人總可以盡速的提出軍公教人員待遇調整條例那請問一下你們現在這樣子的一個法案的進度如何"},{"start":10134.192,"end":10152.384,"text":"我跟委員報告因為在整個上一年三一夜的時候在大宴有提這樣的一個要求以後我們就開始進行一些邀請這些利害團體來開會然後也公聽會各方面都已經完成"},{"start":10152.924,"end":10169.043,"text":"在上一年年底我們已經把整個草案送已經完成人權跟姓名的評估嘛然後也政委也開會那現在就等行政院排入整個院會議程然後會送大院整個程序已經進行到這裡了"},{"start":10170.027,"end":10198.097,"text":"只是進行到行政院所以根本還沒有送到立法院所以我們根本還沒有看到你們的草案草案我們有對外公告大概有八點因為我想很多委員很關心的是參與的那個諮詢會本來是基層的公教人員代表是沒有我們這次增加了四位進來這是當初的一個要求我們都已經列入到整個新的這個八"},{"start":10199.657,"end":10216.636,"text":"八點裡面都已經把他拉進來了因為這涉及到就是這一千萬到底能不能解凍那麼當時的要求是說你們要把草案送到立法院可是看起來你們現在都還在行政院會議裡面可能都還沒有排入行政院的會議"},{"start":10218.007,"end":10237.062,"text":"所以我想這個部分可能之後要請你們把這個草案送到立法院之後那麼我們才可以來做預算案的解凍否則的話不給你們壓力也不知道這個軍公教人員的待遇調整條例草案會什麼時候才會送到立法院"},{"start":10241.465,"end":10253.828,"text":"不過我這裡真的要拜託委員要支持因為就像學生在寫考卷一樣考卷我已經交到老師那裡老師還沒有批我想責任不能怪在學生嘛"},{"start":10256.288,"end":10263.434,"text":"因為老師有時候什麼時候改什麼時候你們是公正的第三方我們當時給你們要求是說是你們要盡速的要提出軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案我們已經提出了你們提出又不是提出道立法院"},{"start":10279.407,"end":10290.199,"text":"因為裡面會有一些行政程序要走啊所以就是說你們要盡速的跟行政院院長反映到行政院會那裡要盡速排案有跟行政院那邊報告過了然後也請求盡快能夠排入整個院會的議程"},{"start":10297.366,"end":10306.253,"text":"因為排入行政院院會議程以後才會送到大院已經有拜託好幾次了因為行政院會有公正的考量今天我是在幫忙人事長非常謝謝委員這個議題應該要讓院長知道不要一天到晚都只是會去下鄉宣講搞大罷免"},{"start":10314.458,"end":10333.813,"text":"這重要的案子又會該排就排而不是一直拖拖拉拉的從去年到現在已經有多久的時間了除了這個案子之外還有另外一個就是有關於職安的防護辦法修正草案跟軍公教人員的公務人員有關的這個其實只是辦法啦當時也是說希望人事總署這邊能夠盡速提出你們什麼時候會提呢"},{"start":10337.789,"end":10362.045,"text":"這個保訓會裡面在公務人員保障法已經在5月6號送到大宴來了5月6號已經送到大宴來了所以你的意思講說這個職安的就公務人員的安全及衛生防護辦法的話這個部分的話就跟人種沒有關係是嗎不是沒有關係有關係可是這個法規的主管機關在考試宴那考試宴已經在5月6號已經送到大宴來了"},{"start":10363.325,"end":10391.803,"text":"好那所以你的意思講說就你們的部分你們的階段已經完成了嗎安慰辦法要會辦我們行政院然後因為會選而已因為安慰辦法是在兩院會選那他的上有的那個法例公務人員保障法已經5月6號送到大院來的好的了解了好OK那接下來呢我要請法務部對好是謝謝任市長"},{"start":10399.866,"end":10402.648,"text":"是 部長在這邊有一個議題我想要請您再幫忙澄清事實上這次的預算凍結案裡面有一個是涉及到律師職前訓練的當時法務部這裡應該是編了三百多萬後來我們是凍結了五十萬"},{"start":10420.797,"end":10428.345,"text":"可是在今年3月初的時候全聯會自己就發了一個新聞稿講說我們這次有關於律師職權訓練的預算案因為"},{"start":10437.543,"end":10463.145,"text":"法務部刪除了該部的檢查行政業務的費用的10%所以呢整個的職前訓練的預算就下修為297萬然後看起來又把這個責任又怪罪到立法院請問一下我想請問部長你們現在是對於律師職前訓練的這個經費是不是真的是有下修"},{"start":10464.401,"end":10475.648,"text":"是有少給全綠會嗎跟委員報告原來編的預算是331萬因為統三的關係所以是統三版之始所以變成是預算是297合定是2979000元那這邊是有有凍結50萬可是統三的部分的話你們自己中間可以去做一些調配嘛對不對你們為什麼要去刪這個"},{"start":10492.479,"end":10495.041,"text":"律師值錢委外訓練費用我們當時並沒有說要統刪並沒有刪這個部分如果要刪50萬的話我當時就直接我們就刪了我們只是凍結"},{"start":10503.476,"end":10524.654,"text":"跟委員報告因為這一次去年以上次上個年度來講的話因為預算不符因為實際核算的決算的是386他是預算數是331但是覺得是386萬餘元那預算不準是有檢察室的業務費的流但是這一次是沒辦法沒辦法流用的"},{"start":10528.546,"end":10546.284,"text":"因為最主要是沒辦法留用那另外這次那個委辦的預算我們是編了687萬4千元律師職員訓練是佔了48%所以這份的確是因為不足所以這次我們就減減了變成是辦五次的一個職權的一個訓練的一個梯次"},{"start":10546.584,"end":10562.476,"text":"部長我想要講的就是我們其實當時每一筆預算都好好看包含項目細項的部分我們刪的是檢查事務費用包含宣傳費或是其他一些費用並沒有要去刪這個律師的委外訓練費用當時只是說凍結50萬可是因為你們的捅刪而且你們釋放出錯誤的訊息以至於讓外界認為說是我們立法院刪了這個律師之前訓練的費用這50萬"},{"start":10576.397,"end":10605.04,"text":"對我之前我就已經有說這防部次長的這種說法根本就是在造謠你們自己內部的調整跟我們立法院有什麼關係是你們認為說律師值錢訓練費用這部分是可以少所以你們自己把它又刪了然後讓人家本來是一年半六次在去年就已經宣告說一年半六次的這個踢訓後來變成是就是少一個踢次變成是五個踢次那中間又有一些踢次的時間的日期不是很恰當"},{"start":10605.76,"end":10607.503,"text":"經過本席請你們法務部來協調後來才調整出一個比較適當的梯次但是現在仍然是辦五個梯次"},{"start":10615.421,"end":10625.028,"text":"就是用線上跟那個實體的一個上測對現在總之就是辦五個梯次嘛所以我們原來的意思是說你們331萬的預算我們凍結50萬你們結出專案報告之後就可以解凍還是應該要以辦六個梯次為主結果你們現在自己刪了刪了之後又已經公告現在只辦五個梯次所以本席的想法是說那現在我給你解凍這50萬是什麼意義"},{"start":10637.057,"end":10659.646,"text":"沒有意義啦 你這五十萬看起來你們又流去做什麼宣傳費沒有沒有 跟委員報告因為它這個 我們是一個委辦會用是編了六百八十七萬四千元那我們現在是統三 百分之十所以其他的各項的委辦會都是全部都是三 百分之十所以 那個律師職權的那個訓練費正好佔這一筆的委辦會的百分之四十八"},{"start":10661.068,"end":10673.127,"text":"48%所以這邊如果全部統三的話我們沒辦法再去從其他的委辦的項目再去去支應就是這樣去留意我跟你講就算是你刪了10%的部分"},{"start":10675.906,"end":10699.626,"text":"這個事實上你們現在第一次也都縮減了所以看起來也沒有解凍這50萬的必要因為你們就少辦了好我跟你講這個部分我們之後再來談那更重要的是說按照律師法的規定我之前就已經講了109年通過的律師法當時說之前訓練的這個辦理律師之前訓練是要由全國律師公會來辦理"},{"start":10701.508,"end":10712.052,"text":"所以相關的辦法也應該要提早要提出來那你們的公告呢 之前一直沒有公告那我最近看到了 行政院現在已經公告了嘛116年要實施"},{"start":10714.729,"end":10727.618,"text":"這已經報行政院核定已經報行政院核定嗎 我已經看到了嘛116年才公告實施嘛 核定了 核定了那個116年會1月1號嘛 1月1號會來對 所以也就是說從109年到115年這麼多年的時間都是法務部在出這筆費用而不是由全國律師公會出這筆費用對不對這個是一個委辦的一個費用委辦的費用 我沖對 沒有沖 就是由法務部來支應這個委辦費"},{"start":10744.181,"end":10766.308,"text":"可是從律師法當時的修正裡面看不出來是由法務部要委辦而是由律師公會自己要去出這筆錢至於說辦理之前訓練的費用是不是要由律師自己負擔一些費用這個是當時你們在修法時候的情況嘛你當時修法為什麼要修法"},{"start":10767.128,"end":10784.2,"text":"就是因為想說之後這個基礎訓練一個月的基礎訓練上課的費用可能就是由全國律師公會來辦理那麼至於他要不要跟這些來授訓的學生然後來收一些上課的費用就是當時的想法他們可能會要來授律師訓練這些"},{"start":10788.583,"end":10804.278,"text":"這個才剛考上的律師學生們他們要自己要負擔一些費用結果呢你們一直遲遲的不去公告相關的這個辦法不去公告這個相關的作業規則那麼反而都是由國家一直來出這筆錢"},{"start":10805.543,"end":10830.251,"text":"那個更委員報告那個已經公告了那再來的話就是要有全聯會來我希望這個辦法趕快提出來因為本行也要看已經施行了這辦法已經施行了那不好意思那之後再提出來你們的辦法給我來看好謝謝部長那接下來我要問一下矯正署最後矯正署今天有來嗎"},{"start":10842.438,"end":10849.845,"text":"針對矯正署的部分本席在之前有看到我們上次的預算案第398項的預算案你們有提個專案報告在當時的預算是凍結"},{"start":10857.632,"end":10881.033,"text":"辦理矯正醫療及訓練業務3000萬這筆錢本來是編了9億我們凍結了3000萬然後希望你們能夠提出一個專案報告那麼特別是針對矯正署保外醫治的審查機制來做一個專案報告請問署長你有看到你們提出的專案報告內容嗎有你們寫了多少字你知道嗎"},{"start":10889.731,"end":10906.463,"text":"可能這個委員看的那個是比較簡要的我們有一個專案報告專案報告呢9頁我怎麼沒有看到我這裡只有只有兩頁而且呢不到400字你們是今天才提的嗎"},{"start":10909.605,"end":10931.258,"text":"是什麼時候寫 是跟我這邊講的398的這個案子一樣嗎專案報告可是你們提供給我們的書面資料就是這兩頁啊而且這兩頁裡面你們只寫了不到400個字耶然後就要解凍3000萬然後內容非常的空白你們法規抄給我 抄給我們這些委員們看因為就整個法務部有很多案子我們這邊業數是蠻多的"},{"start":10940.063,"end":10967.569,"text":"別的解凍案其實也都是寫得很完整你們這個時代是太草率了然後你們說截至到114年3月31號保外醫治的在外人數504人在外超過9年的有32人你們總是要列個表大概是什麼樣的情況竟然有保外就醫超過9年而且甚至更長的你們都沒有寫出來"},{"start":10968.942,"end":10989.887,"text":"你們這樣子的一個專案報告方式 讓本席非常不能認同報告委員 這個專案報告裡面有列表委員可以再詳細看一下好 希望你待會把你們所謂的9頁的報告 應得所有委員看好 沒問題可能放水這樣的一個解凍案是 沒問題好 以上 謝謝委員好 謝謝翁曉琳委員接下來來請"},{"start":10997.048,"end":11001.692,"text":"最帥氣的羅志強委員有請蘇仁市長請仁市長"},{"start":11017.796,"end":11035.237,"text":"人事長早 那個立法院我們上週通過了紀念日及節日實施條例增加了五個國定假日那我想請教人事長 那人事總署何時會重新公告今年新的行政機關辦公日曆表"},{"start":11038.37,"end":11054.199,"text":"這個大概分成幾個部分第一個就是35通過以後要總統要公告嘛那總統公告之後我們就實施可是事實上在上個禮拜五之後我們人總已經有試泥今年"},{"start":11055.36,"end":11078.277,"text":"因為今年下半年大概有三個節日一個禮拜六一個禮拜天一個禮拜四那禮拜四的部分大家就會來討論要不要移動下的問題事實上我們已經有做一些初步的一個規劃到最後還是要簽行政院核定那今年同樣的我們也在做一些按照"},{"start":11079.258,"end":11101.514,"text":"往常明年的一個行事曆的排定會在今年的六月底那我們現在也試著看看把今年下半年的異動跟明年的一併在六月底前要送行政院讓行政院核定公告因為大家要明年的班表要怎樣排會比較方便不過這個過程中可能也要跟委員報告因為這個牽涉到"},{"start":11103.055,"end":11114.107,"text":"金融業還有整個廣大的中小企業各個行業還有我們可能會找相關部會大家一起來討論行程共識聽聽看大家的意見尤其"},{"start":11116.721,"end":11131.075,"text":"明年增加了五天,事實上對偏鄉的小孩子的受教權事實上是有影響還有他們明年一些國中小的那種上課過年的時間我們要跟教育部來協調,要怎樣會比較"},{"start":11133.837,"end":11156.112,"text":"一個 大家的共識度會比較高啦共識度會比較高非常謝謝我們的任市長可見任市長已經有開始做充分的一個規劃跟準備了嘛因應現在一個我們新通過的紀念日跟節日實施條例實際上我覺得全國民眾現在也對任市長有很大的一個期盼就是很多細節趕快把它擬定好 好不好"},{"start":11157.273,"end":11177.234,"text":"那我想請教 具體來說 你剛才已經講到了嘛比方說今年下半年新增教師節台灣光復祭 金門古寧頭大節紀念日還有行縣紀念日 這三個國定假日那教師節是遇到禮拜天嘛 對不對然後光復節是遇到禮拜六嘛那補假的規劃會是怎麼樣去做補假"},{"start":11177.754,"end":11206.048,"text":"按照目前的按照目前還沒有修改的規定是如果是禮拜六的話會前面那一天放假如果是禮拜天是後面一天就禮拜一放假所以就在前後找一天那另外一個大家也關切那就是小年夜小年夜是以彈性過去修法前是以彈性放假的方式處理那就是還要補班但是明年2026年小年夜是週日那"},{"start":11207.108,"end":11227.954,"text":"請問他的補假會補在哪一天 因為剛好是放在禮拜天嘛會補在哪一天 那明年的農曆初四是星期五是不是就會補在這個星期五這一天那這樣的話就可以讓明年的春節假期從六天增加為九天那如果不補假是不是在初四就實施所謂的彈性放假呢"},{"start":11229.307,"end":11246.338,"text":"這個人事長有這部分有討論規劃有有有這個有討論過這個部分我們已經內部有開過好幾次會啦那現在可能再去找相關單位大家因為遊戲規則有沒有傾向目前以所謂的人事處總處的"},{"start":11248.28,"end":11269.301,"text":"目前沒有傾向因為我覺得很多議題要討論應該不要自己太多的定見去干擾別人的一些想法事實上我們的角色就是傾聽像經濟部或者勞動部或者金管會或者教育部相關部會的聲音然後我們來找一個最"},{"start":11270.362,"end":11288.424,"text":"最大公約數因為時間還有啦坦白講也沒有那麼急迫要人事長馬上做出規劃但是你要多聽幾個單位也可以但是民眾確實對於這個小年夜是不是變成是連續的假期一定是很關心嘛對不對這應該是人之常情嘛"},{"start":11288.544,"end":11306.468,"text":"我已經收到很多的關心了我也收到很多的關心大家已經開始預劃明年的休假這是大家都引頸氣盼的事情所以任市長如果各單位的意見徵詢完之後能夠趕快讓國人知道那好規劃明年的假期我們會盡快來處理"},{"start":11308.809,"end":11336.822,"text":"那另外在這邊我也必須要說一件事就是說這次在野黨來一起為民眾爭取到還假漁民增加五天假那我其實有一點遺憾啦因為我每次發言我都是希望說民進黨的朋友能夠一起來支持那到底要放哪些天作為放假是可以討論的可是呢我想要請教人事長請問行政院有沒有版本在這一次的這個紀念日跟節日實施條例有沒有行政院版本"},{"start":11337.707,"end":11358.989,"text":"我覺得這個可能要問內政部因為這一個不會啦 人事長沒有沒有 我要說我不知道法律主管機關是內政部啦我當然知道 可是假日這個是內政部有關你也有關係我剛其實上來就知道你可能要推給內政部啦我不是推 因為你講準中法律一定好料他是上游我是下游啊就沒有嘛"},{"start":11359.904,"end":11379.035,"text":"沒錯吧那委員的情報比我還完整我不曉得所以我要講一件事情就是說如果說今天如果行政院反對這件事情民進黨反對這件事情那就直接說反對然後一直說我們的民進黨主張的假日版本沒有被討論"},{"start":11380.115,"end":11386.757,"text":"問題是行政院連版本都沒有請問哪裡討論那另外一件事情因為這過程其實人事長你也上來被詢過幾次雖然說是內政部主導的業務但因為人事總處還是有業務相關所以這題目其實上我們也會來詢問人事總處的意見"},{"start":11398.18,"end":11427.38,"text":"那我也要跟大家講很抱歉民進黨雖然有版本但是在我們修法的過程當中直接就撤案啦所以我回頭還是要講一件事情就是說到底該不該放假當然會有兩面意見嘛對不對有人贊成有人反對這個其實那個無可厚非啦那我們認為說過去我的主張一直是一貫啦如果今天台灣我就問人事長台灣現在我們的工時在亞洲號就只輸給新加坡嘛排行第二名嘛對不對"},{"start":11432.844,"end":11446.034,"text":"全球排行第六如果我們的公司是全球倒數第六名然後是亞洲倒數第二名說真的我也會舉雙手雙腳反對今天來增加國定假日"},{"start":11446.534,"end":11469.583,"text":"為什麼因為我們工時已經是最低了沒有資格來談增加國定假日可是事實就不是這樣嘛那高工時變成國恥的時候我們要貫徹蔡英文前總統說勞工是心裡最軟的一塊那就要消滅這個國恥那增加國定假日減少大家工時確實是一個辦法當然我們也認為有不同意見也是好事情可是"},{"start":11470.123,"end":11490.321,"text":"今天最忌諱的事情 最遺憾的事情是那你明明就是反對這件事情 那你就直接跟我講說其實勞工的工時 亞洲第二 全球第六這是國家無上的光榮 勞工不值得放假我們就是堅決反對增加國定假日如果說今天行政院把這個態度拿出來那就是大家好好讓人民來決定誰的立場比較對"},{"start":11492.102,"end":11516.422,"text":"那不能夠說過程當中你連版本都沒有然後你有版本把它撤掉最後通過了在野黨的版本然後跟我講說你沒有讓我們的這個假日能夠得到討論我覺得這樣是不公道的總而言之不管怎麼樣講反正現在已經通過修法期待我們任市長把休假規劃做出來讓全民一起來擁有這一個小確幸謝謝您 謝謝"},{"start":11520.747,"end":11530.119,"text":"謝謝羅志強委員尋答接下來請徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在"},{"start":11532.287,"end":11549.718,"text":"那所有登記發言的委員都已發言完畢 詢答結束那委員質詢時要求提供相關的資料 會議書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交 各位委員及本會那剛剛翁曉琳委員 其實你提到的那個部分 就這樣"},{"start":11551.259,"end":11570.859,"text":"他們幫你詢問不清楚 其他提供的報告是比較簡略的另外我們現在來進行議程所列預算的解凍案解凍前請議事人員一併宣讀報告事項跟討論事項之預算解凍案請宣讀"},{"start":11572.1,"end":11586.833,"text":"報告事項二行政院人事行政總處函為一百二十四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送決議一第一幕一般行政預算凍結二十萬元書面報告請查照案三考選部函為一百二十四年度中央政府總預算決議檢送該部決議一二三及"},{"start":11590.492,"end":11608.342,"text":"一二及三預算凍結書面報告請查照案四全區部函為一百日四年度中央政府總預算決議減送公務人員退休撫恤基金管理局決議一預算凍結書面報告請查照案第五案至第八案分別為五法務部函為一百日四年度中央政府總預算決議"},{"start":11609.322,"end":11627.696,"text":"減送該部決議二第二幕向下補助毒品防治特別收入基金預算凍結100萬元書面報告請查照案六減送該部決議三第五幕向下新世代智慧檢查AI科技計劃預算凍結50萬元書面報告請查照案七減送廉政署決議一第二幕廉政業務"},{"start":11628.736,"end":11655.663,"text":"預算凍結50萬元書面報告請查照案8.檢送行政執行署及所屬決議1.第三目執行案件處理預算凍結100萬元書面報告請查照案討論事項第一案監察院函為114年度中央政府總預算決議檢送稅出第六款第一項新增決議255及312預算凍結中案報告請查照案第二案至第七案分別為二人事行政"},{"start":11656.403,"end":11682.191,"text":"行政院人事行政總署 含為114年度中央政府總預算決議檢送決議二 第二幕 人事行政之政策規劃執行及發展預算凍結1000萬元書面報告 請查照案三 檢送決議三 第二幕 人事行政之政策規劃執行及發展預算凍結1100萬元書面報告 請查照案四 檢送決議四 第二幕 人事行政之政策執行規"},{"start":11683.59,"end":11710.725,"text":"人事行政制政策規劃執行及發展預算凍結三百萬元書面報告請查照案五檢送新增決議九十三九十七及一一六預算凍結報告請查照案六檢送新增決議九十八預算凍結書面報告請查照案七檢送公務人力發展學院新增決議一二五第二幕資訊服務費預算凍結五十萬元專案報告請查照案第八案至第九案分別為八考試院含為"},{"start":11712.566,"end":11722.849,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算決議減送決議12及3預算凍結書面報告請查照案9減送新增決議212預算凍結中案報告及新增決議219預算凍結書面報告請查照案10考選不含為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部新增決議226預算凍結中案報告請查照案11全區不含為114年度中央政府總預算決議"},{"start":11741.614,"end":11748.4,"text":"減送該部新增決議232 業務費預算凍結30% 專案報告請查照案第12案至第13案分別為 12 公務人員保障及培訓委員會 含為114年度 將政府總預算決議減送決議1 預算凍結書面報告請查照案13 減送新增決議247 預算凍結專案報告請查照案"},{"start":11765.782,"end":11784.407,"text":"第十四案至第三十二案分別為十四法務部函為一百一十四年度當政府總預算決議檢送該部決議一第二幕向下辦理檢查行政業務中獎補助費預算凍結兩百萬元書面報告請查照案十五檢送該部行政決議三二九第一幕向下"},{"start":11784.927,"end":11802.115,"text":"基本行政工作維持預算凍結百分之二十專案報告請查找案十六檢送該部新增決議三四三第二幕法務行政預算凍結六百四十一萬七千元專案報告請查找案十七檢送該部新增決議三七二第二幕向下辦理國際"},{"start":11803.155,"end":11830.105,"text":"及兩岸法律事務之國外旅費預算總結30%專案報告請查照案18.檢送該部新增決議375第二幕向下補助毒品防治特別收入基金中獎補助費預算總結10%專案報告請查照案19.檢送該部新增決議376第5幕向下新時代智慧檢查AI科技計畫預算總結20%專案報告請查照案20.檢送矯正署及所屬決議1第二幕向下"},{"start":11830.605,"end":11858.143,"text":"辦理矯正行政業務預算凍結兩百萬元書面報告請查照案二十一檢送矯正署及所屬新增決議三八八預算凍結一億元書面報告請查照案二十二檢送矯正署及所屬新增決議三九零第一目一般行政扣除人事費預算凍結百分之十專案報告請查照案二十三檢送矯正署及所屬新增決議三九四第二目向下辦理矯正"},{"start":11858.903,"end":11877.774,"text":"行政業務預算凍結500萬元書面報告請查照案二十四檢送矯正署及所屬新增決議398第二幕向下辦理矯正醫療及訓練業務預算凍結3000萬元專案報告請查照案二十五檢送最高檢查署新增決議404第二幕向下督導速攤暨重大刑事案件辦理中"},{"start":11878.754,"end":11895.881,"text":"業務費預算凍結百分之二十專案報告請查照案二十六檢送最高檢查署新增決議四零六第二幕向下督導速淡計重大刑事案件辦理至國外旅費預算凍結百分之三十專案報告請查照案二十七檢送台灣高等檢查署決議一第二幕向下辦理刑事案件偵查及"},{"start":11896.501,"end":11912.86,"text":"執行等業務預算凍結三千四百九十一萬七千元書面報告請查照案二十八檢送臺灣高等檢察署決議二第二幕向下強化社會安全網第二期計劃預算凍結五百萬元書面報告請查照案二十九檢送臺灣高等檢察署新生決議四零八第二幕向下"},{"start":11913.38,"end":11932.242,"text":"基本行政工作維持至資訊服務費預算凍結200萬元專案報告請查照案30.檢送調查局新增決議428第一幕向下資訊作業中業務費凍結500萬元專案報告請查照案31.檢送調查局新增決議436第二幕向下國家安全維護及安全防護工作中"},{"start":11932.782,"end":11936.487,"text":"媒體政策及業務宣導費預算凍結50萬元專案報告請查詢案32.檢訟調查局新增決議441第三目向下通訊監察工作中設備及投資預算凍結2500萬元專案報告請查詢案宣讀完畢"},{"start":11954.281,"end":11970.005,"text":"好 謝謝主席在這邊做宣告啦我們今天看起來就溝通的也蠻順利啦中午我們就不休息上午的會議進行到議程所列的四項均處理完畢為止那本次的議程所列的預算解凍案"},{"start":11970.345,"end":11994.805,"text":"都已經宣讀完畢我們現在來進行處理那依例照議程所列的順序我們就先處理報告事項按機關別先處理行政院人事行政總署跟所屬機關的議程報告事項的第二案那有關人總114年度預算解凍書面報告案該案已列入議程提出書面報告並經宣讀"},{"start":11998.872,"end":12025.099,"text":"溝通的差不多了吧 有沒有跟你說明有沒有什麼意見好來 翁委員針對那個討論事項人種的那個案子第六案那個那個 翁委員我先來講報告事項 報告事項而已好啦 報告事項呢我們就都已經提出書面報告了畢竟宣讀我們就做以下的決定准與被查來提報院會"},{"start":12028.379,"end":12052.129,"text":"那接著我們來處理考試院跟所屬主管114年度預算解凍書面報告案報告事項第三四案該兩案已經列入議程提出書面報告並經宣讀那我們就做如下的決定報告事項第三案第四案均準於被查提報院會沒有異議沒有異議我們就通過"},{"start":12056.124,"end":12079.136,"text":"那接著我們處理法務部及所屬主管114年度預算解凍的書面報告案報告事項第五到第八案該四案都已經列入議程並提出書面報告並經宣讀來做如下的決定報告事項第五到第八案均准予被查提報院會"},{"start":12083.883,"end":12087.365,"text":"這個都是報告事項沒有異議我們就通過那個討論事項一定會讓大家來討論報告事項預算解凍宿命報告案都已經處理完畢後續處理來討論事項無關的機關代表可以先請離席"},{"start":12107.695,"end":12130.993,"text":"報告事項處理完畢我們繼續進行討論事項由於法務部下午需要列席憲法法庭希望說可以提前處理請問在場委員是否同意提前讓法務部來進行處理法務部及所屬主管的預送解凍案請問在場委員有意見嗎"},{"start":12134.837,"end":12150.905,"text":"沒有異議的話我們討論事項就先處理法務部跟所屬主管的預算解凍案我們先進行討論事項有關法務部跟所屬主管的預算解凍案的部分請各位參閱關西文書的合訂版整份在這討論事項第14到第32案"},{"start":12160.43,"end":12164.816,"text":"法務部的跟所屬主管在114年度預算解凍案裡面已經報告及詢答完畢都已經宣讀了請問在場委員有沒有"},{"start":12174.04,"end":12198.011,"text":"來 翁小玲委員剛剛講的那二十四案就是有關於矯正署的辦理矯正醫療及訓練業務凍結三千萬的專案報告因為其實在我們這本這個這麼多的這個預算報告關係文書裡面它其實真的就只有寫兩頁後來的這個剛剛說的這九頁的報告不曉得是什麼時候才交的來 矯正署請說明"},{"start":12209.728,"end":12227.186,"text":"請拿麥克風好不好是我們有透過國會組這跟那個辦公室我們辦公室那邊聯繫了那得到的是說我們就拿在我們會場備用備著這樣子是"},{"start":12229.308,"end":12247.642,"text":"請問是跟哪一個委員辦公室?是跟我辦公室嗎?不是吧?因為這個是你們所有的委員都要看的就算是我之前我曾經有關心過這個案子可是你也不是用這種方式來呈現更何況就是你們寫的內容仍然是非常的簡略喔你們雖然說後來這邊看起來有列了"},{"start":12253.467,"end":12271.228,"text":"羊羊大概有列了大概五六页但实际上的内容仍然是罚散可成我现在要求就是说是包含就是有多少的受刑人他们曾经有提出申请保外就医以及保外就医被驳回的次数比例"},{"start":12273.118,"end":12284.173,"text":"這些都要做詳細的統計啊否則我們根本不知道說到底現在受刑人保外醫治的情況是如何報告委員我們這個有我手上這邊有這個資料"},{"start":12286.124,"end":12313.04,"text":"沒關係 有資料沒關係那特別小林委員所提出來的這些資料是不是也再馬上做一個提供好不好可以 或者可以齁 這樣翁委員這樣啦 我的建議是說你愛都交你要求 我准你動資啦好不好就是我現在是動三千萬但是因為我覺得還是要給他們貼壓力否則他們不會寫好報告我的想法是說是給他改的我會替你給他要求"},{"start":12316.482,"end":12343.381,"text":"那個署長這個我已經講好幾次了所以還是莊委員比較有面子他們都不說甩我的面子我要求的事情他們都沒有做那個書面資料快速提供啦好不好那我們這個預算我們就準與動之提報院會翁曉琳委員所要求的資料要加條件啊等一下他什麼時候提供給我而且我這邊我會"},{"start":12345.663,"end":12349.226,"text":"三綱三綱寫得出來沒署長幾天寫得出來今天下班以前可以寫這麼快 這樣做五品書了啦只有黃曉玲才有啦好不好"},{"start":12359.838,"end":12379.108,"text":"你看嘛就只有翁小玲委員有這麼大的面子下班以前沒有只有莊委員有這個面子買買買好了那我們就主委動之提報院會那今天下午以前資料趕快提供這個在外面在長達九年的三十二個受刑人他們的病情狀況是怎麼樣為什麼這麼久到最長是多幾天都要寫出來啊"},{"start":12380.469,"end":12383.91,"text":"主席 吳宗憲委員第十九案因為當初我要的資料還沒有全部給剛剛已經有跟我說了 是不是請"},{"start":12408.957,"end":12425.415,"text":"請法務部這邊可以說明一下我要的一些譬如說滿意度調查等等的都沒有那正確率這個我沒有意見啦正確率的比例那是不是請法務部說明一下說明讓我覺得如果有理由的話我這邊就沒有意見好 法務部請說明我請檢察司說明"},{"start":12428.045,"end":12449.834,"text":"跟委員報告有關這個AI科技的計畫因為過去我們的事辦機關是中檢跟桃檢所以沒有全國的資料可以來提供經過委員提醒之後我們今年會就因為也增加了北檢跟新北檢的事辦所以我們會就這四個地檢署來召集相關的會議同時隨時的請他們提供使用者的意見來給我們"},{"start":12456.437,"end":12476.472,"text":"那會針對這個委員要求要提供這個滿意度調查以及使用次數的部分我們都會做一個統計之後然後再來提供以上那這個部分我想就是能不能大概給我一個可能可以做的這個時間大概要多久"},{"start":12477.253,"end":12490.388,"text":"因為那個今年我們的那個計畫就是目前是招標中那我們今年就會做對今年就會做有關的這個滿意度的調查那針對這幾個事辦機關詳細日期還沒有辦法給譬如說幾月間可以給有沒有辦法告訴我"},{"start":12494.272,"end":12521.037,"text":"那或者是我們一季提供就是每三個月提供給委員好然後這樣就是說但是你那個問卷我希望說至少你統計上面要顯著就是讓我們知道不要說問個十個人然後就給我們了解這部分就麻煩你你們一定要給如果說十九案這邊我如果說要解凍我沒有意見但是就麻煩你們承諾的事情要做到謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝你還有錢"},{"start":12524.881,"end":12531.305,"text":"法務部及所屬主管114年度預算解凍案已處理完畢機關代表就先請離席"},{"start":12548.447,"end":12565.204,"text":"接續我們來進行監察院主管的預算解凍案的部分討論事項第一案是監察院主管114年度預算解凍案都已經報告及詢查完畢並已宣讀 請問各位委員有無疑"},{"start":12567.682,"end":12588.26,"text":"沒有異議的話我們就準以動之提報院會那監裁院主管114年度預算解凍案已處理完畢機關代表可先行離席那接下來我們來進行討論事項有關行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管的預算解凍案的部分"},{"start":12589.18,"end":12604.906,"text":"討論事項第二到第七案人總及所屬主管114年度預算解凍案業經報告及詢問完畢並與宣讀請問各位委員有異議沒有異議的話我們就准以動之提報院會剛剛是講人總嗎"},{"start":12606.417,"end":12614.904,"text":"人總我們剛剛已經達成協議了我再排個時間叫他回來 酸尼啊你還理我 我說你酸尼啊 你不要走開跟人事長有講了 本來是凍結一千萬那現在就是改凍成一百萬他會三年不夠啦"},{"start":12637.105,"end":12648.9,"text":"我們希望院長能夠重視這個事情卓榮泰能夠重視軍公教人員調整條例草案要趕快排入院會送到立法院來審議要給卓榮泰一點壓力"},{"start":12654.298,"end":12661.599,"text":"因為我剛有宣告啦所以這個宣告了這樣叫你們自己趕下去不趕啦好不好要不然我宣告了 對你也抱歉因為我剛已經提出反對了我剛 抱歉如果你剛我還沒宣告以前齁你這樣說我一定百分之一百來尊重一百萬而已不算我的問題是說我剛已經有給人家宣告沒有吧有有有"},{"start":12683.823,"end":12685.604,"text":"我們跟人事長都已經講好了沒有什麼特別委員跟人事長講好了大家就要聽特別委員的 你有程序啊"},{"start":12699.332,"end":12706.116,"text":"因為我有特別有講而且有講說討論事項的這個案子我有特別要做剛主席一直在詢問沒有意見你沒有意見嗎我的問題 我剛有詢問大家我不知道這一趴啦所以我就問大家有沒有意見我才說大家沒有意見我才宣告所以我現在很快就提出我有意見了啊"},{"start":12717.904,"end":12720.267,"text":"唉唷 我就算夠了 你怎麼這麼說 別這樣我一個主席主席我剛剛在質詢的時候 您有聽到就說我很在意這件事情所以當時就說凍結一千萬 我甚至還不肯"},{"start":12734.382,"end":12756.201,"text":"這個不肯放寬說變成只改動100萬後來剛剛跟人事長我們有講好了就是私底下有協調有關於這個凍結1000萬到底要不要放行這件事情因為我還是很在意就是人事總署他們已經很努力的提出來了這個草案到行政院行政院趕快要支持讓他們的案子送到立法院來啊"},{"start":12757.122,"end":12764.324,"text":"王委員你給他動一聲我也沒意見就是說你剛才在我宣告之後我才知道有1%啦啊這個錯都是人事長的錯啦他也沒來跟我講啦所以要打屁股就給他打屁股因為我宣告完了我對整個委員會我沒有辦法說因為你宣告准以動之以後啊然後因為你再提出來我就說再給他動一個100萬不好意思我剛剛真的沒有聽到你有講說是問有沒有意見"},{"start":12785.014,"end":12802.627,"text":"可能我講得太小聲了 麥克風的問題這麥克風不好 我們下次再修理麥克風好不好這個就這樣啦 一條一百萬就這樣這個吳宗憲委員 如果你宣告一樣嘛我們也不好意思說碰到這種情況沒有 我遇到這種狀況 你們早就鬧翻了就是不會不會不會鬧翻而且我們只是 欸 這麼多的案子我們只是動 動不是要買到百萬嗎那個"},{"start":12809.071,"end":12829.197,"text":"不是啦我覺得不能這樣做其實今天解動案你看我們都非常的善意剛剛所有包括AI那個我本來覺得要動我也覺得OK我就希望行政能夠更順遂我們都是這樣今天我們大家來都是維持一個善意啦他們說話已經談妥了我跟你說我剛剛不就不知道"},{"start":12830.818,"end":12839.363,"text":"沒有了解到這個翁委員跟任市長你們有講凍結一百萬這一趴嗎所以我不敢問你們在場有沒有異議你們告訴我沒有異議我沒有說沒有異議啊沒有人講有異議啦這個有異議真的確實要提出來啦因為那個時候我就趕快提出來了啦哎呀主席不要這樣子我跟您說一下你剛剛這個次序又交換又顛倒那本來一開始是說先處理人種的"},{"start":12860.297,"end":12861.759,"text":"明天一早去跟院長報告這件事啊這樣可以嗎 好不好"},{"start":12880.587,"end":12891.622,"text":"沒有用我現在不相信卓榮泰講的話啦一定要送過來之後白紙黑色才看到當時的解凍的條件就是這樣啊要送立法院"},{"start":12893.308,"end":12913.8,"text":"同意要送立法院才會解凍嗎我做主席的時候我都很尊重每個委員嘛那有時候我們做了一個裁示之後有委員說他剛剛沒有聽到或什麼我們都會盡量滿足大家的要求我現在也是在跟你們滿足所以說今天我覺得我們來我們只有解凍案我們都非常的善意那我們也放得很寬那不然這樣啦這樣啦 算我不對啦一百萬影響也不大啦你們趕快上行政院"},{"start":12924.791,"end":12943.448,"text":"報告委員因為進就是要單行正義排到院會啊我上一年已經完成所有的程序啦因為行政院他會有很多案子在那裡Q行政院會去排那個優先順序那現在行政院有綜合考量無事啊 委員"},{"start":12945.683,"end":12948.525,"text":"因為第一個部分是程序剛剛主席是一案一案有問在場有沒有異議那個時候可能中線委員跟翁委員可能在討論其他事情所以沒有聽到所以現場沒有異議就通過了所以還原程序是這樣那我想我們質詢是質詢但是審查是審查"},{"start":12970.66,"end":12995.856,"text":"沒有說我在質詢台上我說了怎樣就要怎樣或者是我私下跟某個部會講好了就要照我的那個原本的協議因為為什麼大家質詢完個別委員都回到現場就是要在審查的過程再去make sure而且這是一個集體的合議而不是個別委員的意見所以程序上我的主張是這樣第二個就實質上溫委員所在意的那個法案"},{"start":12996.496,"end":13017.767,"text":"好那當然人事長已經承諾他也已經送到院裡頭那去督促院裡頭趕快排案但如果翁委員剛剛要繼續再凍結一百萬的這個的理由是不滿意行政院還沒有排您對卓院長不信任您對於卓院長有意見那也不應當是對人事總處的預算嗎因為人事總處法案已經處理好"},{"start":13018.527,"end":13040.809,"text":"所以後續行政院也還是有行政院的解凍案嘛好 如果說這個冤有頭債有主如果剛剛翁委員您具體說您是不滿意左院長行政院的部分那真的也不 就是說對上也不對啦實質的 克責的對象也不對啦但我講這一part是這是補充我第一part是認為程序是如何就應該是如何"},{"start":13041.714,"end":13070.327,"text":"剛剛主席已經主持很清楚的問現場有沒有意義 沒有意義那補救的話 其實文委員後面還有行政院的預算嘛還是可以處理啦所以我是尊重主席的才是主席也很努力在在在磋商了好 謝謝 您都不要說 我跟您說其實我都 你們的發言我都沒有半點去做負面的解讀啦都盡量 都給您收音 讓您變正面其實院會交下來這種的一個解讀案"},{"start":13071.227,"end":13080.23,"text":"也沒有辦法來部分解凍啦重點是在這個地方啦所以我不能跟你說沒有意義通過是給大家都維持的彼此都很專業啦好不好這個部分就這樣子啦我們就這個部分就準以動之提報院會來來來 再說來"},{"start":13095.526,"end":13117.636,"text":"第一個 剛剛到底主席宣告的時候我們在做什麼 我們有沒有提出異議我覺得這個如果不清楚的話 那麻煩把剛剛的錄影帶再調出來看然後第二個就是 明明當時解凍的條件很清楚 就是草案要送到立法院草案要送到立法院 就是沒有送到立法院"},{"start":13119.013,"end":13140.716,"text":"所以我現在只是看了這個法案草案有沒有送過來那麼至於行政院院會排什麼時候坦白說那就是看人事長跟行政院院長你怎麼去跟他請求排入院會然後才能送到立法院這事實是很清楚的它就是沒有符合我們當時的解凍條件"},{"start":13142.281,"end":13152.45,"text":"那麼我們剛剛私底下那個人事長有來跟我說明這個狀況我說OK我可以理解但是我還是認為說因為我的條件寫得非常的清楚"},{"start":13154.854,"end":13167.641,"text":"就是沒有送過來那麼為什麼我們要這樣放水如果這樣的話那其實以後所有的案子都沒有完成我們全部都解凍那凍結就沒有什麼意義了所以我希望主席能夠了解就是今天我不是說是整個凍一千萬也不是說凍五百萬只是小凍一百萬希望他們能夠趕快送過來假設你們下禮拜你們就已經排了就能夠上院會送過來我相信吳昭偉這裡也可以盡速的幫忙"},{"start":13183.55,"end":13197.251,"text":"來提這個案子的解凍案對我不要大家爭執在這個案子上面然後搞得本來今天朝委其實從頭到尾都是很體面然後對我們大家都是出善意然後我們好好的把這些案子談那現在就剩下這個案子"},{"start":13198.473,"end":13205.317,"text":"我跟委員會來報告啦 其實院會這個決議交辦的這種凍結案 這個我們委員會沒有辦法來部分解凍啦所以你們剛才在那裡說一巴掌 我是好意跟你們說 我都不知道你們有一巴其實就算你們彼此同意也沒有用 就只有X跟NO而已嘛所以我不能調理都讓你們這樣那如果是全然的話"},{"start":13224.827,"end":13247.462,"text":"如果不能夠部分解凍的話,那就是全案,它就是沒有符合這個條件因為你們提到那個部分解凍,那個條件我抱歉跟你們說,那是不行的,那個對於整個委員會裡面的解凍案,那個是無效的條件怎麼會是無效的條件,我們都是在讀通過的法律預算案,這怎麼會是無效的"},{"start":13248.682,"end":13263.286,"text":"願廢絕育的凍結案,就是說,買的你就給通過,不然你就是繼續凍結,不然就說,你這樣沒有頭上那些願廢,過去凍一億,還是凍一千,你說不然就凍幾百萬就好,就不可以這樣處理了。所以任市長,你實在是黑白大英,你是黑白大英長。"},{"start":13272.043,"end":13275.407,"text":"過去都有這樣子的案例而且這個本來就是很清楚就草案不受立法院啊我真的不會去放水我每一案我一定跟大家如實的報告完問大家的意見好不好"},{"start":13290.367,"end":13315.197,"text":"主席我先請教一下這聽起來是洞中之洞那我們過去在教文從來沒有聽過這樣的慣例或者是案例那我不知道是不是在司法法是有這樣的可能性好有人跟我說沒有所以我想就是請主席在座說明那我要提醒一下剛剛確實那個時間點如果歐美人非常堅持那是不是也許就休息兩分鐘去看一下那個IBOD因為剛剛第一時間我們已經喊出沒有"},{"start":13316.318,"end":13329.629,"text":"然後主席就宣告了然後宣告之後翁委員才突然不知道是因為忙完手上的事情還是突然聽到了還是突然想到了所以才喊出來所以按照剛剛的程序確實習這件事情已經不應該再處理我們已經過了好那這是我剛剛在現場一直從剛剛做到現在我所聽到的狀況麻煩主席做出明確的採釋謝謝"},{"start":13341.181,"end":13353.897,"text":"是啦,我們真的是沒有辦法去併跟院會凍結的一個標的啦所以這個阿祥主要就是我問大家說沒有意義,有沒有意義,大家就說沒有意義,我不知道通過好不好,歐元不要緊張啦,這讓他再看要求他怎麼樣的時候"},{"start":13360.974,"end":13381.585,"text":"法律的啦 中委員 對不對 今天條件寫在那裡是很清楚如果你說沒有辦法說是變成說小範圍 只改動一百萬那如果這樣子的說法的話 那動一千萬就一千萬就是等到草案送到立法院之後就立刻解動那一千萬 就這麼簡單啊"},{"start":13383.206,"end":13400.962,"text":"是 我懂你的意思我的意思就是我完全尊重這個跟我們是不是學法律真的無關因為院會做的決議它是凍結這個凍結數就是擺在那個地方那我們委員會你要去解凍的話就是要不要解凍"},{"start":13402.023,"end":13412.49,"text":"就是要嘛就全部給他 不要嘛就全部都沒有那是因為你們說你們選一個一百萬這個不可以你說你要一千萬 我就給你一百萬就好或是因為這個原因這個條件其實它不應該成為一個解凍案的一個條件重點是在這個地方不然你說你要一千萬 我就給你一千萬那基本上我也不同意解凍"},{"start":13427.593,"end":13433.494,"text":"這一千萬是 因為就是說你剛如果跟他說不同意我這一案我真的就會另案處理啦"},{"start":13435.194,"end":13446.237,"text":"對 所以我就是沒有聽到你在唸這一案啊不是主席 剛剛你不是說下次開會注意聽好嗎下次開會注意聽就好 不會再辣掉了我們這邊很快的地方就唸過了而且剛剛一開始現在處理是法務部的對不對 然後你一下又跳回到監察院然後又人事行政總處你中間要有個時間讓大家可以回過神來然後知道說你現在唸哪邊啊好 我的錯 我的錯 好不好 拜託你"},{"start":13461.261,"end":13461.761,"text":"主席沒有錯啊 主席你幹嘛"},{"start":13491.161,"end":13494.443,"text":"討論他 怎麼會是主席的責任呢從來就沒有 從來就沒有您的解凍條件我委員可能是比較沒有審查預算的經驗我委員恐怕比較沒有審查預算的經驗因為每一次的凍結你期待的條件不是啦 你剛剛沒有真心聽嘛剛剛我們四個人"},{"start":13517.095,"end":13523.543,"text":"那難道只有我們四個專心到嗎這不是很奇怪嗎我們都坐在這裡認真聽啊反正所有的案都要解凍不是嗎"},{"start":13525.33,"end":13529.912,"text":"如果您這麼在乎 您剛剛為什麼不具履歷在剛剛開會的時候不專心聽呢從您剛剛開始 主席在講報告事項跟討論事項的時候您剛剛就沒有搞清楚 主席還跟您說前面是報告事項 後面才是討論事項所以主席我們要換駕啦我們希望這台車已經開走的過程先休息五分鐘 好 再溝通一下 休息五分鐘"},{"start":13549.099,"end":13557.857,"text":"沒有啦 那真的是因為絕育的數那個數額 我們委員會不能用打折的方式啦休息一下 休息一下"},{"start":13921.82,"end":13948.886,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會啦因為有委員對第六案提出異議仍有意見啦那討論事項人總跟所屬及主管的預算解凍案我們就這樣子啦我們就做如下的決議啦第六案我們定期繼續處理啦一到五 七案 准以動之提拔願意 好不好好"},{"start":13951.89,"end":13976.066,"text":"這樣都有大家的意思啦OK來我們接續來進行討論事項有關考試院及所屬主管之預算解凍案的部分討論事項第8到第13案考試院及所屬主管114年度預算解凍案也已經報告及詢答完畢並已宣讀請問各位委員有無異議"},{"start":13978.274,"end":13993.43,"text":"好 如沒有異議的話我們就准予動之來提報院會那議程所列的事項均已處理完畢我們今天會議就到此結束我還沒發散會喔有準備便當來 我們現在散會 謝謝大家王委員這樣可以啦"}]}},{"id":"16664","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16664","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea7f5e9927fcb957774a0b64e919a43a5f52bdb8234cc31cac124f3a4de1c047705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算解凍案。二、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關不當黨產處理委員會預算解凍案。三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關中央選舉委員會及所屬預算解凍案。四、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關大陸委員會預算解凍案。五、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關客家委員會及所屬預算解凍案。\n\n【5月12日（星期一）、14日（星期三）、15日（星期四）三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-12","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-12T08:38:10+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-12T14:16:00+08:00","duration":20270,"影片長度":"05:37:50","委員發言時間":"08:38:10 - 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議事錄確定那繼續進行報告事項和討論事項請宣讀"},{"start":1655.365,"end":1679.349,"text":"報告事項一 宣讀上次會議事務二 處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關海洋文匯及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計三案三 處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央選舉文匯及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計一案四 處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關客家文匯及所屬預算凍結書面報告案計三案討論事項一 處理114年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":1683.49,"end":1693.453,"text":"有關海洋委員會預算凍結專題報告專案報告案計8案二處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結專案報告案計1案三處理審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央選舉委員會預算凍結專案報告案計4案四處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關大陸委員會預算凍結專案報告案計5案"},{"start":1708.797,"end":1717.201,"text":"五处理审查一百一十四年度中央政府总预算案有关客家委员会预算冻结专案报告书面报告案即期案宣读完毕"},{"start":1718.925,"end":1742.383,"text":"好那報告事項第二案處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關海洋委員會預算凍結書面報告案計三案報告事項第三案處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央選舉委員會預算凍結書面報告案計一案報告事項第四案處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關客家委員會預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":1746.385,"end":1771.653,"text":"記三案 軍系提送書面報告後 使得動之的案子跟委員會報告 現在書面報告已經提送預算就可以動之 請問各位委員有沒有意見沒有好 沒有意見 預算得以動之 提報院會那本日議程所討論事項 何並詢答那我們現在介紹在場委員及列席官員我們在場委員有黃婕委員"},{"start":1776.483,"end":1802.584,"text":"王美惠委員吳清明委員李柏毅委員張志倫委員好我們在場的官員有我們海委會的主委我們管碧玲主委我們不當黨產處理委員會主任委員林峰正主委"},{"start":1805.785,"end":1826.734,"text":"我們中央選舉委員會主任委員 李基隆委員我們大陸委員會主任委員 邱隨正主委我們客家委員會主任委員 谷秀飛好 那我們現在進行報告"},{"start":1832.654,"end":1839.414,"text":"請各組委 我們就折要報告好 我們先請海委會管弊人組委"},{"start":1848.939,"end":1877.818,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生各位官員同仁各位媒體朋友大家早安今天很榮幸應邀列席大院貴委員會就本會主管114年度預算解凍案進行報告首先感謝各位委員在上個會期對本會及所屬機關業務預算的指導與支持首先就大院上會期審議本會主管114年度預算解凍凍結情形進行說明"},{"start":1879.299,"end":1890.687,"text":"本院审议本会主管114年度预算案通过冻结14项预算合计11.9亿元其中预算解冻条件"},{"start":1908.999,"end":1920.873,"text":"通案部分針對總共合計凍結三成合計11.6億元項目包括基本行政運作必須經費業務推動氣需的經費業務預算本會一項秉持"},{"start":1929.841,"end":1955.44,"text":"刀口上運用而且加強執行本會所屬在近年來業務費預算的執行率都達98%以上尤其海巡署因應兩岸情勢情務激增常需申請第二預備金方能免利支應因此上階預算遭凍結三成影響基本行政運作與業務規劃推動情形"},{"start":1958.283,"end":1969.113,"text":"經推估本機關僅能夠維持基本行政運作到七、八月底至於業務推動執行的部分因為凍結金額龐大難以通盤規劃辦理"},{"start":1972.916,"end":2001.361,"text":"若未及於本會期完成預算解凍延到下個會期再行辦理解凍完成時恐已屆年底本會期所屬將面臨預算執行的壓力導致預算保留過多或因計劃未及執行僅能停辦而有預算剩餘無法有效運用經費如果無法確定經費到位採購標案之執行與預約付款亦存有不確定的風險"},{"start":2002.722,"end":2020.742,"text":"對相關協力廠商與團體權益也將造成實質的影響,卻有緊迫解凍預算之期需。那麼如果以機關別災報專案報告的部分的話,本會海洋業務凍結一千萬元的部分委員共提三十四案。"},{"start":2021.923,"end":2035.49,"text":"本会海保署海巡署有关于海巡一般行政冻结3500万元的部分委员共提5案有关海巡署海巡业务冻结3500万的部分委员共提61案"},{"start":2037.071,"end":2064.846,"text":"有關海洋保育署海洋保育署海洋保育業務凍結兩千萬元的部分委員共提二十二案另外有關書面報告的部分本會一般行政凍結兩百萬元委員共提六案海洋保育署海洋保育署一般行政凍結一百萬元的部分委員共提五案有關國家海洋研究院海洋研究業務凍結兩千萬的部分委員共提九案"},{"start":2065.546,"end":2086.016,"text":"以上有關於專案報告與書面報告相關的我們所需要解凍預算的內容請委員參閱報告本位及所屬114年度預算遭凍結除了直接影響機關行政的順暢運作以外亦將延遲海洋重要施政及推動其程"},{"start":2086.656,"end":2105.06,"text":"在此懇請委員支持早日完成預算解凍讓本會及所處的機關能夠如期如質的推動各項海洋的事務最後再次感謝委員對本會的愛護與指導以上請再要報告 敬請指教並敬祝各位委員身體健康 萬事如意 謝謝好 我們請不當黨產處理委員會林主委"},{"start":2121.049,"end":2123.88,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士各位先生大家早"},{"start":2127.407,"end":2141.27,"text":"大院在審查114年度本會的預算關於一般行政向下有關於業務費原來編列795萬2千元經過決議凍結該預算30%是本會向內政委員會提出專案報告後並經同意時的動之本會已經遵照決議提出書面的資料的專案報告現口頭說明如下"},{"start":2157.438,"end":2178.606,"text":"本會是在一百零五年八月三十一號設立依照檔案條例來調查政黨及賦水組織不當取得財產情形及後續的處置到現在為止本會已經認定十個政黨的賦水組織並作出十一個處分要求不當取得財產遺傳國有或予以追徵"},{"start":2181.309,"end":2191.214,"text":"現在本會在進行的重要的業務有以下幾項第一個是有關於調查的業務這當然是本會最核心的業務收集各種證據來調查聽證程序來進行行政處分"},{"start":2195.779,"end":2218.937,"text":"第二個是有關於文檔的整治本會在調查期間會取得大量的檔案包括過往的公文會議紀錄還有各種史料這些都是非常珍貴的史料我們予以數位化所以有大批的文檔要等待我們來處理第三有關於許可的業務按照檔檔條約的規定經認定為政黨附屬組織他們要進行財產的處分的時候必須得到本會的許可"},{"start":2226.969,"end":2243.938,"text":"這個有大量的許可案件等待我們處理那第四當然就是大家常常在媒體上看到我們有關的訴訟業務本會在認定負責組織命移轉或追偵的時候被處分的人都會向行政法院申請停止執行或者提起訴訟"},{"start":2245.814,"end":2275.414,"text":"那本會就剛才講的有關於負責組織的財務要進行處分的許可業務那麼在決定的時候也有部分的被處分的人向法院來提起訴訟那成立以來到現在為止我們已經有超過90件的訴訟那現在完全終結的還是非常少數那這個整個法院的這個審理的進度也不是本會可以掌握所以本會仍然要進行大批的訴訟準備的工作"},{"start":2276.855,"end":2299.32,"text":"本會是一個任務型的機關會努力來完成人民賦予本會的使命早日達成政黨公民競爭的目標使我國的政治運作不再受到不當黨產的干預落實轉型正義以上說明請委員可以支持來解凍此項預算引力本會業務的推動謝謝我們請中選會李金勇主委"},{"start":2314.781,"end":2334.298,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士各位先生大院審查第114年度中央政府總預算稅出第二款第11項中央選舉委員會及所屬通過決議括弧一就是凍結中央選舉委員會及所屬國外旅費20萬元括弧四凍結選舉業務500萬元新增決議括弧335凍結"},{"start":2342.867,"end":2363.385,"text":"選舉業務一千五百零七萬元四項貴委員會提出專案報告並經同意之後 使得動之本會經以一百一四年四月二十三日中選組置地一一四三八五零零六二號函檢送二十四件專案報告函送大院在案"},{"start":2364.326,"end":2375.172,"text":"決議括弧二凍結第一幕一般行政向下基本行政工作維持費值一般事務費10%四項貴委員會提出專案報告並經同意之後 始得凍資本會經以114年4月23日中選組織第1143850059號函檢送專案報告函送大院在案"},{"start":2389.119,"end":2396.36,"text":"新增決議括弧329凍結業務費70%是執行30%之後才可以申請解凍並行經院會的同意本會經以114年4月23日中選組置地1143850061號函將業務費執行情形表函送大院在案新增決議括弧345凍結選舉業務"},{"start":2418.985,"end":2429.534,"text":"選務撤禁業務費10%是一個月內提出罷免連署書新格式並經內政委員會同意之後 使得動之本會經以114年4月23日中選組織第114385 0063號函"},{"start":2436.54,"end":2445.868,"text":"送專案報告 函送大院再案 另決議 關乎三凍結第一幕一般行政向下的召開委員會議50%四項貴委員會提出書面報告之後 始得動之"},{"start":2451.618,"end":2475.153,"text":"依上開決議本會已經在114年4月25日以中選組置地143850060號函提交書面報告函送大院在案那跟各位委員特別報告就是因為這個報告書面的報告一共達到二十五一共達到二十六案"},{"start":2476.013,"end":2494.799,"text":"那如果說要逐案的來說明即便是簡要的說明也要耗時甚久為了不耽誤各位寶貴的時間所以有關於書面報告的部分也請各位委員能夠參閱那我特別在口頭補充就是最後一案26案本會及所屬114年度業務費的執行情形"},{"start":2500.801,"end":2504.985,"text":"114年度各項工作計畫業務費合計預算數是8,1409,000元依照立法院新增決議括弧329凍結70%截至4月底為止實質數是1,6462,000元"},{"start":2519.338,"end":2523.019,"text":"預付數225萬4千元執行率是達到23%若含預估全責發生或即將辦理項目1949萬8千元合計是3821萬4千元執行率就達到46.9%"},{"start":2540.504,"end":2557.554,"text":"另外跟各位報告就是各位也知道目前正在辦理罷免案各項的前置的作業那因為罷免案我們並沒有編列年度的預算所以有很多前置作業所需支出的費用"},{"start":2558.574,"end":2576.062,"text":"就這個捉襟見肘尤其是特別我們跟地方選委會之間諸多的聯繫那很多的同仁因為公務必須要出差跟地方選委會大家共同執行罷免相關的業務"},{"start":2577.142,"end":2605.707,"text":"那也另外包括我們的委員會議事實都必須要增開以應付這個突發各種議題必須要來做討論所以增加的各項費用非常的耗煩所以我們也特別拜託這個貴委員會特別拜託大院能夠就解凍案能夠迅速的處理以便於我們各項選務的工作能夠順利的進行以上報告跟拜託敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2612.033,"end":2634.502,"text":"好 請陸委會邱主委主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生 大家早安這門貴委員會的邀請向大院提出本會今年度的預算解凍報告共計五案總計有七千兩百一十二萬"},{"start":2635.629,"end":2651.484,"text":"那這些金額影響本會正常運作甚至懇請大會會議解凍那針對這五個案子分別類跟大家報告有關本會業務費凍結20%這20%的業務費用主要是因應台海情勢動態變化中共對台作為以及推動"},{"start":2660.452,"end":2682.114,"text":"務實穩健的兩岸政策及未來所需發展所需那這裡面有相當多的形式延期第二是為促進兩岸青年學子相互理解及維護在中國大陸台商子弟的教育權益持續推動中國大陸的試讀跟辦理兩岸青年學生延期營的活動"},{"start":2683.42,"end":2698.722,"text":"第三是為了審慎因應中國大陸對台的經貿作為持續關注陸方經貿政策對台商的影響及台商在中國大陸投資經營的相關情形以協助台商多元佈局"},{"start":2699.463,"end":2715.26,"text":"第四 為了促進兩岸及台港澳健康有序加強安全管理第六 並持續透過多元管道向社會各界說明政府兩岸政策立場最後 為了確保本會辦公室"},{"start":2716.301,"end":2732.114,"text":"處所能夠正常維運及安全防護那需要在一般行政幕僚及事務管理等工作必須提供必要的資源與服務因此及需要這些費用來維持正常的基本營運"},{"start":2733.951,"end":2759.496,"text":"第二本會的業務法證業務被凍結20%那重點在於推動兩岸締結協議處理及監督條例草案研議進度那麼我們在過去草野推動兩岸協議監督條例立法在立法院第九屆以及第十屆的會期均有立委個人或黨團提出不同版本之兩岸協議監督條例草案"},{"start":2760.576,"end":2777.468,"text":"由於涉及到爭點甚多不易形成共識那麼2019年政府因應中共所提出的兩制台灣方案之民主協商程序我們優先推動增訂兩岸條例第五條之三針對涉及政治協議之"},{"start":2779.369,"end":2805.721,"text":"協議建立了高標準高門檻的民主監督法制至於非涉及政治議題的兩岸協議依現行兩岸條例第五條規定來辦理那過去行政跟立法部門已經完成了26項協議之審查與被查程序執行上多有經驗尚無治案因兩岸條例以明定政治性及非政治性議題的相關處理跟監督機制"},{"start":2808.482,"end":2831.574,"text":"本會認為兩岸協議監督條例相關的草案暫時無急迫性及必要性那另外因為這個案子涉及到國會監督的權限已由國會的角度提案立法再以如果說仍然需要有專法明定兩岸協議審查本會都予以尊重另外"},{"start":2832.314,"end":2839.456,"text":"第三本會的經濟業務被凍結10%我們要強調因應國際經貿局勢的巨變以及中共加大對台經貿脅迫及統戰融合作為本會持續強化對國際兩岸以及中國大陸經濟議題的掌握與研析評估對中國大陸對兩岸經貿及台商的影響配合主管機關政策措施協助台商"},{"start":2860.22,"end":2879.192,"text":"以及研議應對及安全與風險的控管機制使兩岸政策跟規劃可以來參考所以請大院給予支持第四有關於港澳門站業務凍結10%疫後台港澳人流巨增"},{"start":2880.032,"end":2894.473,"text":"我們駐港澳住處提供民眾及時服務至關重要未來本會將配合兩岸情勢的發展密駐港澳情勢動向努力透過溝通儘早恢復住處人員及業務如常"},{"start":2896.243,"end":2915.572,"text":"五,有關於本會的文教業務凍結五百萬目前兩岸我們積極在推動兩岸校際師生的互訪辦理、研討、論壇、研習會等各類學術性的交流活動"},{"start":2916.352,"end":2945.25,"text":"均正常持续进行两岸校际间的教育学术交流以及研修生来台也渐需稳定发展也需要大院的支持最后面对两岸的情势变化以及中共对台复合性的施压我们会审慎因应台海的情势管控风险务实推动两岸关系良性互动维护台湾永续发展"},{"start":2946.089,"end":2965.462,"text":"本會各項經費編列都秉持著尊決預算的原則且為各項業務根本所需要所需懇請大院同意檢動並予以動之以利本會業務順利進展以上報告 敬請各位委員指教謝謝好 請柯委會主委"},{"start":2982.436,"end":3005.506,"text":"主席各位委員大家好很榮幸今天受邀過委員會就客家委員會及所屬114年度業務費凍結30%以及客家語言發展預算通過決議9項提出專題報告使得解凍以下就口頭報告詳細資料請參與書面報告"},{"start":3009.587,"end":3035.896,"text":"針對客家文匯及所屬業務費凍結百分之三十案以下報告一百一十四年度預算總編列十二億六百四十一萬元主要會判理及指涉體內發展管理計劃以及白宮政府簽附託團計劃一百一十四年度行業年齡應徵以及一百一十四年度全國總社會及英文經濟行業兌換年齡經濟"},{"start":3038.561,"end":3046.805,"text":"還有2005年,僅致學家台系贊揚協議,以及114年度傳統協議,在今後延推動叛逆法律,叛逆國中學家建築文化資産部署計劃,以及學種存落專項,以及出版叛逆學種創新環境計劃。"},{"start":3064.294,"end":3081.534,"text":"復讀、推廣、汎用、合格文化秘書以及裁剔成功以及讀念、推廣、合格樣式應用產業以及文學推廣計劃而有關客家語言發展預算執行及業務推動專案報告如下"},{"start":3082.975,"end":3110.528,"text":"一百一四年科語科家語言發展科家語言升職計劃預算約為六億九千萬元主要在推動行業形成使譬如跟香港的計劃提升行業成本同行業以及行業服務普及化輔導團計劃內部行業能量增加推動強化民眾共學意識等計劃"},{"start":3111.989,"end":3119.275,"text":"還有持續建設行業醫療及移營治療庫,來開發移營便士以及學生內託。那麼也針對政府機關行業能力認證提升進行措施,鼓勵公務員參與行業認證提供認證的方便性。"},{"start":3134.434,"end":3142.657,"text":"至於好商業行業認證通過立體嚴重責任問題也提出歸三邊共提供行業認證學習教材來鼓勵行業輔助學校開設行業認證板來變遷行業屬於學習教材 也叫哈克"},{"start":3156.321,"end":3163.288,"text":"名錄學研提供基礎書院學習教材來編織行為批准學習平台以及行為顧問實施教材的學習職業懲罰學生對行為因素提供學習考慮"},{"start":3175.459,"end":3190.405,"text":"也提出行政院高職普遍政策的規劃兩位方面也運用多年重新模式來推動強生園學習行業興趣和能力來協助強生園出權同工認證對非持續盤利行業成績是高好推動實施計劃來擁立也要擴敞"},{"start":3202.794,"end":3214.862,"text":"另外也推動了行為實體培養和法治法的工作,本行為替高科技用醫療方法中責任。本會議在123年2月開始開放西營強和學術強的醫療資料,提供國家的生產使用。"},{"start":3223.988,"end":3232.976,"text":"本會及所屬114年度單位預算業經大院審議審定支持通過本會當權力積極推辦各項業務有關前階預算凍結案施設本會業務推廣"},{"start":3241.242,"end":3256.927,"text":"各項計劃正在積極籌備規劃當中敬請各委員同意動之以利業務推動順利讓客語發展得以永續使客家語言文化能夠傳揚以上報告請國民委員職高聖文特加安智晟 勞勞"},{"start":3266.465,"end":3292.431,"text":"好 我們現在進行詢答委員質詢前原例做以下幾點宣告本會委員發言時間5加1分鐘那非本會委員發言時間4分鐘因為今天處理預算本次會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見沒有好 謝謝那我們現在進行詢答請登記第一位的王美惠委員發言"},{"start":3299.693,"end":3303.714,"text":"主席我們請黨長會好 請黨長會委員長在這裡告訴你我本席要跟你談到這個我們的審查凍結預算裡面本席要請教我們黨長會我們最主要背山跟背凍"},{"start":3329.246,"end":3358.987,"text":"你剛才說的是不是還要補充一下來黨產會的預算其實也很簡單只有兩幕一個是一般行政一個是黨產處理我剛才報告的是一般行政的業務費的部分被凍結三分之一也就是原來其他另外一幕叫做黨產處理這一幕是已經在院會去年省預算院會的時候完全全數被刪除所以我已經都沒有了"},{"start":3360.068,"end":3372.174,"text":"所以剩下一般行政裡面的業務會少少的然後還被凍結三分之一因為我又要跟你討論跟剛才聽你的報告跟你主流的可能有些關於的問題在這裡我覺得這麼嚴肅的像剛才所說的差不多不用做了啦就等於這個單位沒好位啦"},{"start":3388.8,"end":3395.145,"text":"因為在古早到現在這個黨黨會的成立就是以前就是我們的國家的財產變成別人黨的財產所以在民主這個國家該處理的我們就要處理啦因為本身所了解像你們最近在國會會這個案子的時候我們是敗訴"},{"start":3417.481,"end":3426.185,"text":"但是我們還可以享受 因為我看是不是贏就是輸也不一定都輸 也不一定都贏就是看我們的經濟搞對"},{"start":3431.38,"end":3451.251,"text":"就是他會猜我搞錯啦在這個中華救濟總會的時候我們是贏的本來我們是輸的是不是這樣來 回答一下中華救濟總會是贏的因為它只是在高等行政法院等於是第一審的狀況我們是贏的"},{"start":3453.232,"end":3472.038,"text":"這個是沒有問題但我們有輸了幾件其實都集中在一個類型就是國民黨以前取得的財產它已經賣掉的部分法院現在有不同的意見但是法院從來沒有針對我們的證據的部分有任何的質疑也是因為我們調查是詳實的法院也接受我們調查的事實"},{"start":3473.078,"end":3487.735,"text":"現在問題出在法院跟我們意見不一樣的地方在於說已經處分掉的黨產要怎麼追 範圍怎麼樣那按照黨產條例的規定不當黨產的定義是在第四條它是指政黨為他自己或他的附屬組織"},{"start":3489.036,"end":3512.914,"text":"以違反政黨本質或其他背於民主法治原則之方式取得的財產他就這樣子而已他從剛才我的敘述裡面幾乎聽不到說我們黨產條約在立法的時候對於不當黨產的定義有關於價錢的取得是聚焦在價錢的取得上 沒有他只是說違反政黨本質譬如說政黨本來就不應該經營商業嘛那你經營商業這個是違反政黨本質"},{"start":3515.616,"end":3536.395,"text":"或背於其他民主法治原則的方式譬如說有違法的狀況有其他脫法的狀況只是這樣子而已但是法院現在的意見在我們帶的幾個案子同一個類型就是處分掉的黨產它要求說是以前無償取得的或者我們可以證明它又很便宜的價錢取得這個部分才能去追回來"},{"start":3537.682,"end":3541.825,"text":"所以問題聚焦在這一點,但我們對他意見不一樣所以我們在上述當中本席再跟你請教一下,如果在這個過程當中我們的預算不夠,你們會去追加預算嗎?因為現在已經五月了,已經超過40%"},{"start":3559.144,"end":3584.875,"text":"這個過程當中我們有發動去追加預算來 回答一下我們 因為剛才我報告過了我們有有發動沒發動那看行政院的態度 行政院有問我們我們當然表達我們必須 因為連請律師都請不起沒有啦 要你們的意思跟你們的意思跟行政院說啊我們有去爭取啦有去爭取 好來請安路委會主委"},{"start":3588.415,"end":3594.983,"text":"來請 主委因為時間 我要請教公務人員任用的第28條有酸重的國籍來賓 不可以擔任我們的公務人員已經違反了對台灣的"},{"start":3605.936,"end":3616.172,"text":"中產的義務嘛,在這裡你們立委推出裡面要求大家都要有聚集,去簽這個方式,但是在你們這一波的查裡面"},{"start":3621.94,"end":3626.001,"text":"有37萬人喔已經有99%都已經有做這個動作出來是但是有剩2.7%他不願意做,他也不願意做因為某一間學校的教授,大學的教授他不...要教他也不做像這樣你要怎麼處理啦"},{"start":3651.852,"end":3664.505,"text":"我們在整個清查軍公教核心人員第一波其實絕大部分的軍公教人員都非常的高度配合沒有啦 我知道高度配合就是有99%嘛我們要配合的要怎麼處理啦"},{"start":3669.85,"end":3692.867,"text":"我們最後盤點剩下500多件這500多件就是說他這個清查作業沒有完成因為我們用拒絕的方法是最尊重當事人成本最低那如果他不用這個方式那我們也會請人事主管機關繼續跟他請教他任職的消極資格有沒有完成"},{"start":3693.527,"end":3699.191,"text":"持續用其他的方法來做調查因為我覺得你們這個動作出來就是一定有的你看其中裡面有人去中國的新聞局還有那個居住證是很多的我們台灣人去那裡放這些資料所以我覺得你們要好好去查好好去做我們還會有第二波 第三波 循序漸進"},{"start":3716.502,"end":3729.275,"text":"再來一件 我要來證告我們兩岸人民法的關係的條例裡面在高調的一三在18.8年定的 但是當時我們定的就是退將役 移到"},{"start":3733.158,"end":3739.744,"text":"中國 聽他們 聽他們講話 唱他們的歌 聽他們講話在那裡做什麼但是我覺得這個的情形我們一定要看著也要剝奪他的退休金在這裡面本席剛才說的這個條款本席也有提出但是在每個星期"},{"start":3758.559,"end":3766.544,"text":"我們就已經在宴會給他們呼籲,在那邊站著,這個本席站著,這個母校站著,就要在這裡站著你對本席所提出的這個條例,你認為怎麼做比較好來"},{"start":3777.337,"end":3797.53,"text":"感謝議員 我們感謝委員的努力您的立法的精神跟我們未來行政院版本的精神態度是一樣的有關於這個第九條之三對於指標性人物賦入參加中國大陸重要的黨政軍所辦理的"},{"start":3798.611,"end":3816.353,"text":"典禮,對他們的祈輝歌,請禮致敬這些形式,我們會加強立法而且也把...不是啦,我覺得要加強,因為這種的意見越來越嚴重了過中國威規範的人員,這是我們立法的方向,跟委員做法一樣"},{"start":3816.894,"end":3820.737,"text":"因為我覺得越來越嚴重,一個國家你不愛國家,你承認國家的體育金,說國家的不是,這樣你承認國家的體育金,這樣非常不該所以本省在這個時候,不問你們的條例,趕緊來看什麼要保障的,不能聽信這個不愛國家,這個人,我們不愛"},{"start":3845.578,"end":3856.188,"text":"請你趕快離開台灣沒關係 但是不要捏台灣的體育金啦這才是一種讓他們做不對的事以上好 謝謝委員好 我們補充宣告 我們上午10點半截止發言登記那我們繼續請張志倫委員"},{"start":3876.837,"end":3883.749,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位委員 各位官員大家早有請邱垂政 陸委會邱垂政主委 謝謝好 請邱主委"},{"start":3891.286,"end":3909.053,"text":"主委早 首先要給我們今天所有來報告 尤其陸委會一些肯定那非常感謝 其實本席針對陸委會的部分常常請教陸委會主委就是希望說現在台灣人到大陸觀光旅遊的人次一年大概是280萬人左右"},{"start":3911.954,"end":3929.29,"text":"路方來台灣的大概每年大概二十幾萬人所以比例相當不對稱那我們現在希望說台灣人去大陸觀光旅遊或是洽工可以得到一個完整的保護機制那我們也知道說現在陸委會有推出一個赴陸港澳動態登陸系統"},{"start":3932.133,"end":3951.85,"text":"的一個系統那可是在去年12月4號的時候我就本席就有質詢有請這個主委來解釋說為什麼我們現在的附陸港澳系統他的防呆機制還沒有完全解決就是說他在登錄裡面的資料的時候發現說沒有一個防呆機制輸入任何的資料"},{"start":3952.591,"end":3980.766,"text":"都可以來輸都可以吸引進去所以我們很擔心這個登錄系統是不是有誤而且他的防呆機制不完備那過去我們也跟主委討論過用這個登錄系統真的入委會可以來協助的民眾的數量好像不是那麼多所以第一個我們想要請主委我們其實這是本黨團針對很多的凍結案第一個我們所有都解凍案我們都沒有提出復議我覺得這是一個非常"},{"start":3981.246,"end":3999.537,"text":"理性而且是對各單位是一個很好的一件事情所以是不是可以請教一下我們這個赴陸港澳的動態登陸系統到底現在的整個成效如何防災機制是否可以如期完成能真正能達到它的功效"},{"start":4000.357,"end":4022.933,"text":"謝謝委員強化我們登錄系統的建置跟效率特別您提到防災機制我們預祝更多的解凍之後預祝更多的經費可以強化這個機制另外上網去登錄的人也越來越增加大概人數有增加多少"},{"start":4023.713,"end":4049.313,"text":"我們今年而言就比去年又增加了2.4倍我們也不斷的利用各種機會去做宣導加上中國大陸對台灣這個人身安全風險一直提高我們國人也有這個警覺意識要去登陸那我們也不放棄任何的對外這個宣導的場合去強調那所以這個登陸的這種情形有明顯的成長"},{"start":4050.054,"end":4071.524,"text":"好當然因為過去的登錄的數字是偏低那我很開心聽到現在登錄的比例有稍微增高可是本席這邊想要跟主委討論我私下有聽到旅行業者來跟本席透露也反映他們的心聲因為大家都知道現在台灣是有禁團令的一個想法所以基本上"},{"start":4072.584,"end":4087.449,"text":"就旅行業跟一般民眾的想法是覺得說好像不能組團到大陸去可是現在陸委會為了提高一些比如說我們的動態系統的登錄反而請這個旅行業要協助來請這些民眾或是代委來登錄這樣的問題"},{"start":4088.849,"end":4112.696,"text":"那所以這些旅行業者覺得他覺得腦袋很混亂的我又沒有要我又不準備帶團到大陸去旅遊那你怎麼又要叫我協助旅客來登錄這樣的登錄系統這樣會不會讓他們覺得腦袋很混亂是不是可以請所以他們有跟我反映會不會讓我覺得說有點政策前後不一然後導致政策混亂的一些問題謝謝委員指教吉哥"},{"start":4113.936,"end":4129.289,"text":"第一個重點是說我們並沒有您所說的完全禁團令剛剛你提到的我們一年還有去中國大陸去年一年277萬對岸的來我們這裡只有34萬其中11.6萬人還是從第三地來的就剛剛委員講的數字是對的他來的"},{"start":4139.657,"end":4162.024,"text":"將近30萬而已在這種情況底下人數如此的少是誰在阻礙兩岸的交流第二個我們這個動態登錄系統基本上是呼籲還有組團附入的這些旅行社應該告知他所屬的這些團員為了自己安全多一份登錄就多一份安全"},{"start":4162.924,"end":4176.822,"text":"那希望呢他們協助這個當事人來鼓勵他們登錄但是是鼓勵性質並沒有強制我們其實目前為止都是鼓勵的所以等一下還要問主委先問一個比較重要的問題就是說"},{"start":4178.964,"end":4194.981,"text":"賴清德總統即將520就職滿一週年那大家都可以看到過去的新聞不管中國發動文攻武嚇或策動台灣藝人轉發統一的帖文引發外界關注那我相信在之前也有相關的這個新聞等等出現"},{"start":4195.862,"end":4218.654,"text":"那陸委會宣稱在這些這個中國發展矮化台灣的言論的藝人要依法查處這我們都同意可是現在還沒有看到具體的任何的案例跟懲處的成效我們可以請教主委那是不是到底有沒有相關的法律的依據或執行力來介入這些這樣子的行為還有說你們是不是說有明確"},{"start":4219.795,"end":4245.045,"text":"明確的到底要怎麼樣的處罰怎麼樣的言論要多少怎麼樣的處罰是不是可以在這邊統一來跟這個讓民眾來知道也讓大家知道怎麼樣可以處罰我們都支持陸委會的行為好不好請主委謝謝張委員給我們這次機會說明對於我們附路發展的藝人由於在中國大陸被可能疑似被強制的政治表態"},{"start":4245.945,"end":4250.755,"text":"那對於這種情形我們從歷次都可以發現在特定時刻"},{"start":4251.69,"end":4280.543,"text":"他們都勇於政治表態那有些呢到底是不是經紀公司的問題還是當事人的問題但是都在特定時刻那配合中國大陸矮化或是傷害我們國家主權甚至呼應對岸這個軍演台灣轉貼圖文這個對於我們的民進世紀的打擊啊固然有但是其實我們全體國人是對這個是相當反感也有很多檢舉案所以我們跟"},{"start":4281.601,"end":4298.393,"text":"文化部有一個行政查處的小組最近也會準備好之後就可能會鎖定一些目標進行查處那這個部分一定會落實大概整個時間大概會多久因為過去已經有這個案子跟檢舉案了"},{"start":4299.033,"end":4315.421,"text":"那我們都做好了各種的行政修正準備然後最主要是說他是依照兩樣條例你有沒有跟中國大陸的黨政軍包括官媒有任何的合作行為那這個可能就涉及到我們剛剛說的"},{"start":4316.661,"end":4338.066,"text":"兩條例33條之一那當然我們也了解有些藝人在中國大陸發展真是蠻困難的他被迫要去有一些政治方面的被他們中國大陸政府要求要強制政治表態如果他真的有這些問題的話我們文化部也提供了很多計畫來輔導他們回到台灣來發展"},{"start":4341.287,"end":4359.326,"text":"畢竟台灣的這個創作自由的空間是遠遠比大陸更優越那麼我們有一些輔助藝人的這些計畫可以落實所以我們會趁著這一次行政查處的作業了解他是不是有涉及違法大概會多久一個月內會出來嗎這幾個禮拜應該會很快520之前會出來嗎"},{"start":4365.211,"end":4376.818,"text":"因為我已經快到了不敢在這邊跟委員承諾因為涉及到主管機關文化部不過我們已經討論很久了應該要開始行動了好我們努力好謝謝謝謝謝謝張志倫委員接下來我們請張宏祿召委好"},{"start":4395.066,"end":4397.627,"text":"我請陸委會邱主委邱主委我想請教,最近大家在講的福建的赴美工這件事情你知道嗎?是,能夠了解"},{"start":4421.371,"end":4443.474,"text":"如果說中國的宮廟來台灣參與遶境或什麼的,有違法嗎?我們現在是不樂見他們來這裡進行遶境那最主要是說,他們以主神的地位來我們地方巡視他連在神的世界都要矮化台灣"},{"start":4444.315,"end":4457.775,"text":"那這個部分我們就希望宗教交流能夠回歸到宗教的專業交流所謂專業交流它在儀軌上面在儀式方面在這個"},{"start":4460.399,"end":4476.653,"text":"研議方面能夠進行專業交流不要要去統戰化去政治化回歸到專業化單純化的專業交流不是真正的專業宗教人士我們都會提高審查的門檻強化審查的力度"},{"start":4481.381,"end":4496.338,"text":"主委我覺得你跟我的看法是一樣啦但我覺得就只要白話的講啦神的交流也是要平等啦對不對就是這樣嘛神的交流你也不能用統戰的矮話但"},{"start":4497.679,"end":4511.212,"text":"我必須要說這只是冰山的一角你應該也知道有更多的他們跟台灣的宮廟的這些交流然後有很多的問題出現那我想請問一下我們現在兩岸"},{"start":4515.356,"end":4539.598,"text":"除了飛機 航空業的直航之外 我們的海運目前有直航嗎是 貨運有直航不是啊 我當然知道 我說人啦喔 客運沒有客運沒有嘛 對不對那所以在這種情況之下這個福建的這個廟 他們的神像來台灣對 他怎麼來的"},{"start":4540.993,"end":4559.635,"text":"是,跟委員報告,我們也在清查,因為您剛剛講的那個赴美工,我們並沒有他申請來台的申請記錄。但是他卻用他的神教,在我們這次的媽祖的繞行活動出現。"},{"start":4560.736,"end":4580.752,"text":"甚至到不同宮廟不同縣市的宮廟去做遶境這個我們深感覺得這是到底是在規定審查呢還是一種虛假的一種交流我們正在會從主管機關查處當中對我覺得這要快第一個是"},{"start":4582.756,"end":4602.675,"text":"海運沒有客運對不對那一般我們所了解的如果神像你是坐飛機的話幾乎大部分的也都會買一個位置吧那你從航空公司去清查去什麼我覺得一個很重要的一點"},{"start":4603.922,"end":4616.218,"text":"到底是不是真的有中國的這個赴美工這個他的神像有來台灣還是一切根本就是一個一個幌子我覺得這點才要查清楚"},{"start":4617.239,"end":4637.977,"text":"是 跟委員報告 事實上我們跟移民署合作在錦町這個有人的檢舉我們已經都有直接到現場去追蹤那我們現在還要進一步的去了解到底是由國人"},{"start":4639.258,"end":4657.888,"text":"是國人代替拿進來或是由國人負責去繞行但是有沒有中國大陸人士他沒有經過申請這個以不符合用其他的名義進來但是卻在繞行這些宗教交流這個是我們查處的重點"},{"start":4659.734,"end":4686.086,"text":"我覺得啦台灣是一個宗教信仰自由的國家啦你不管全世界各國的神明或什麼的他要來台灣只要通過合法的管道我覺得我們都應該歡迎啦我們是一個宗教自由的國家但是我們不歡迎就是他不是我們核准自由進行的這個教育對我的意思就是這樣所以你這個要查很好查啊對不對是"},{"start":4688.087,"end":4717.415,"text":"有沒有入出境紀錄有沒有什麼的這個很好查嘛我覺得就給國人一個很明確的他到底有沒有這件事這件事是不是事實我個人以這樣來判斷我覺得裡面問題很有很多啦所以你應該跟各單位去把它查清楚讓國人知道我覺得這是今天要跟你說的好不好謝謝 謝謝委員那來我再請來請回我再請客委會"},{"start":4731.727,"end":4752.355,"text":"這個那個谷主委我覺得這個我們現在客委會配合文化部國家語言整體發展方案其實在很多地方行政區排上有加注客語拼音的標示對不對可是"},{"start":4754.195,"end":4762.82,"text":"主委我不知道你自己有沒有去現場看你在這些的地方其實車流量應該是蠻大或什麼但"},{"start":4765.525,"end":4793.732,"text":"車速也很快其實來不及看我不知道主委你有沒有注意到這個我注意到了是那個去年有發生過這樣的情況那所以我們我請我們那個副主委跟單位同仁還有邀請各縣市的交通單位還有那個相關的單位一起來會商其實這個要改進確實是有改進的空間是做得不夠好不夠"},{"start":4794.785,"end":4812.583,"text":"不是 我不是要說你們做得不夠好啦我是覺得啦齁這個一開始的出發點是對的是對 是啊但你用在那邊那個齁車速都很快根本來不及看是我覺得啦那你不如齁比如說有"},{"start":4813.618,"end":4832.55,"text":"你要進去的時候進去客家莊的時候你要這個那我覺得你不如在客家莊裡面的很多你們現在辦的很多活動不如多一點這些客語的這些注音或什麼的我覺得反而大家慢慢走或是在逛的時候更容易看清楚"},{"start":4834.19,"end":4852.075,"text":"我的建議是這樣,不要主委的看法它有分好幾種,一種是路標,一種是地名的標示好幾種,人行可以停留的跟車行觀看的指標不一樣所以這有很多的分類,我們去年已經開始在著手討論這個部分了我們確實有注意到這是很細緻的問題,所以應該要改善"},{"start":4861.377,"end":4864.939,"text":"好 好 你們知道 你們去改善就好是 好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝張宏祿召委接下來我們請徐宇貞委員謝謝主席 我們請中選會李主委"},{"start":4897.918,"end":4917.197,"text":"委員好主委早主委我想請教一下就是我們現在其實全世界都在面臨川普高關稅而且匯率戰的關係所以全世界其實都在這個全力應戰但是呢我想現在民進黨的我們的執政黨還是全心全意在搞大罷免所以"},{"start":4917.857,"end":4940.363,"text":"現在我看今年中選會的預算只有編列四億八千六百六十六萬並沒有編列罷免立委跟新竹市長罷免所需要的經費那今年是公投年也沒有看到編列相關的經費那最近我們可以參考的罷免案大概就是去年基隆市長的一個罷免案請問主委那一次的基隆市長的罷免案花了多少錢"},{"start":4941.803,"end":4966.499,"text":"經費從哪裡來基隆的罷免案中央沒出錢因為那個經費是必須要地方政府來負擔那一次基隆市政府支出的費用大概是兩千七百多萬那我有看到你們中選會發的新聞稿說這一次的立委的選舉的經費大概是一千七百到一千八百萬"},{"start":4967.72,"end":4984.95,"text":"我們是根據去年有兩個罷免案 一個是台北第五選舉區那個花的費用大概是一千五百萬左右另外就是中市二選區大概是一千九百 將近兩千萬這樣不算了"},{"start":4986.551,"end":5003.956,"text":"所以說如果假設這次全部都通過的話要進行罷免的投票總共需要經費是多少那要從哪裡來指引一個案子剛剛跟委員報告就是一千七到一千八但是多少個案子會成案我們現在還不敢說那經費要從哪裡來"},{"start":5005.816,"end":5026.407,"text":"經費因為罷免案你沒有辦法變入這個年度的預算因為有沒有有多少都不知道所以我請教你罷免案的經費向來罷免案的經費都是申請行政院動資第二預備金所以罷免案會用行政院的第二預備金是嗎也就是我們俗稱的救命錢是嗎"},{"start":5027.567,"end":5044.275,"text":"我們會向行政院申請動用第二預備金就是第二預備金好那我再跟主委請教一下因為大家都知道中選會就是一個中立的國家的選務的一個機構那上次我在詢問您的時候"},{"start":5046.156,"end":5072.792,"text":"主委特別提到說國民黨有涉入組織性的犯罪其實您不是政治評論員也不是執政黨的打手講這樣子好像說這個國民黨就是好像鋪天蓋地的組織犯罪說得好像只要有三個人以上就可以從事某項政治活動那我現在要提醒你法律不能雙標政治更不能雙標我們可以看一下最近很有名的這個民進黨直接相關的共諜案"},{"start":5073.993,"end":5095.062,"text":"已經陸續的爆出瞎臉的名單有立法院前院長游錫坤的助理聖楚音有總統府辦公室的國安資義吳尚宇有民進黨中央黨部的民主學院的副主任邱士源有新北市民進黨籍的市議員領餘點的特助黃曲榮還有外交部長吳釗燮任內的助理"},{"start":5097.603,"end":5121.595,"text":"和仁傑所以這些人都不是犯犯之輩也不是無黨不派都是民進黨的黨員分別擔任黨務幹部府會的機要黨公職的助理所以如果依照組織犯罪防制條例第二條的定義只要三人以上涉犯五年以上的本罪即可認定為組織犯罪那請教主委民進黨這連串的這個涉共諜的情資是不是已經具備組織性結構性如果依你給國民黨貼的標籤來看民進黨是不是更符合組織性的犯罪"},{"start":5128.013,"end":5152.75,"text":"我第一點跟委員報告的就是我上次答覆委員質詢的時候我所用的詞應該是組織性的犯罪組織性的犯罪對啊組織性的犯罪所以我現在請教您啊依照剛剛講的這些人是不是民進黨更符合您所謂的組織性的犯罪我第二點跟委員報告的我上一次之所以講出那樣子的話其實我內心是有糾結的"},{"start":5154.091,"end":5176.937,"text":"為什麼我內心糾結呢因為那個事件牽涉到的是中選會作為捍衛人民參政權而這個參政權受到傷害的時候不管你有沒有糾結都不該在你口中說出這樣子的一個其實我相信你看到一般的言論大家都看到是非常的失職又失格這不該是一個獨立中立的"},{"start":5179.238,"end":5199.258,"text":"中選會的主委該講出這樣的話如果有時間我會再跟委員做更進一層的說明那第三點我剛剛正提到您的是民進黨的共諜案您認不認為更符合您所謂的組織性犯罪那個跟我要捍衛的中選會的價值無關所以我就不便評論所以"},{"start":5200.859,"end":5223.468,"text":"在這邊告訴李建永主委其實您上次的發言其實非常的失職又失格我相信您也感受到了全體人民對您的這個疑問那我想身為民進黨中選會的主委您不是民進黨的主委而已您是整個中選會的主委希望您要秉持中立公正公開的方式不要辦藍不辦綠"},{"start":5224.968,"end":5229.55,"text":"對於執行我們的選務 中立的執行因為時間的關係我想請教陸委會邱主委謝謝委員"},{"start":5244.15,"end":5269.767,"text":"主委好邱主委好我想請教一下喔就是之前呢您有受訪有提到說這個民進黨政府以保防清查為名擴大針對軍公教進行中國身份證跟居住證的清查那您接受媒體的專訪有提到說到4月底已經有37萬人完成拒絕其中有2人持有中國身份證有75人持有中國的居住證"},{"start":5270.967,"end":5285.276,"text":"這個數字我想對大家來說都很震驚喔因為在我們的軍公教體系居然有這麼多人是有這個居住證有中國身份證那請問一下邱主委那兩位擁有中國身份證的軍公教人員在哪個單位任職跟吳委員"},{"start":5290.021,"end":5304.622,"text":"報告 確實這兩位有中國身份證的兩位同仁經過我們的協助依照我們兩案條例第九條之一第二項"},{"start":5306.003,"end":5331.056,"text":"我們認為是一個特殊案件所以他可以保留我們國人的身份協助他已經把註銷放棄了我剛剛問你的是他在哪個單位任職他有沒有涉及有關機密的業務目前都已排除都已排除就是曾經涉及囉都已排除了現在那就是有涉及整個機密的業務是嗎"},{"start":5334.468,"end":5337.664,"text":"因為已排除嘛代表曾經涉及嘛是"},{"start":5339.56,"end":5364.07,"text":"我想他相關的機關已經把他排除掉了相關的機關是什麼機關委員是不是我們不方便在這邊說好那你私底下告訴我但是我想剛剛主委的答案已經告訴我們了他們曾經涉及機密的業務現在已經排除那另外還有就是有75個擁有居住這個身份證的又是在哪些單位有沒有接觸到機密的業務"},{"start":5366.031,"end":5380.327,"text":"我想我們為什麼要做這個清查跟宣導還有通過一個專案讓大家來拒絕就是讓各個機關透過這個清查的作業當中所以你這個是用專案幫助他協助註銷拒絕對不對"},{"start":5382.809,"end":5400.356,"text":"他未來是公務人員對我們國家有忠誠義務的話我們一定要來協助他處下主委您一定要徹查清楚因為剛不管是那兩個擁有身分證或是75位擁有居住權的他們的業務是不是有涉及機密這我們會來這個不是只是一句已排除就可以處理的是"},{"start":5400.936,"end":5417.683,"text":"一定要先嚴格的查到底有多少的業務機密已經被洩漏出去然後另外針對您這樣講的話之前針對一萬兩千名的陸配發出的那個通知要求他補繳初級證明是不是就可以比照來幫他們專案協助來去處理呢"},{"start":5418.183,"end":5434.5,"text":"是 公委員報告因為我們過去在2004年3月1號實施的這個兩岸條例之前已經取得台灣身份了由於他們年紀可能比較資深我們都做了很多完整的配套措施跟替代方案"},{"start":5435.02,"end":5459.79,"text":"那現在有四項替代的那個嗎 措施嗎不只 就是可以用替代方案有六個標準那另外還有可以延展時間的有三套類型我們盡全力的來協助這些有需要的希望標準要一致啦 好嗎因為陸配在我們這邊這麼久他都擁有我們的身份證 其實他就是我們的家人就是我們的國民 希望標準要一致是 我們希望他在身份上"},{"start":5460.41,"end":5471.015,"text":"都是不要被人家質疑都是合法在合法的前提他未來才能安居樂業合法的前提不要造成民怨不要造成他們的困擾我們會全力來協助他們謝謝好 謝謝委員好 我們請高金素門委員"},{"start":5491.389,"end":5498.904,"text":"今天我們審六個部會的解凍案然後一個部會一分鐘請問一下今天召委是整個都要處理嗎"},{"start":5500.655,"end":5527.647,"text":"我們看情況啊可是你看你們講我都沒有都讓你們講啊我想在這個我們所有這個不管是透過立法院這個直播系統或者是網路上的朋友他們也覺得很疑惑今天要這麼嚴重重大的解凍案然後我們六分鐘然後今天是六個部會那事實上真的是有很多的問題還沒有辦法問完那等於說一分鐘一個部會"},{"start":5528.928,"end":5555.37,"text":"好吧那沒關係既然這也是立法院長期的不過今天我的建議是如果我們對各部會還有意見的話我覺得還是先讓他不要解凍啦我們讓形成更多的社會共識之後讓更多的繳納稅錢的我們的全國百姓能夠清楚知道他們的納稅錢怎麼使用然後在立法院我們立法委員是如何監督他們的納稅錢我覺得這比較合理謝謝"},{"start":5558.352,"end":5576.965,"text":"我先請選委會的李敬勇主委好 請李主委主委你在立法院六年了你算是從蔡政府一直到賴政府當中一直在被任用的選委會主委你認為這六年你做得好嗎"},{"start":5578.056,"end":5602.284,"text":"我非常的努力跟我的同仁大家共同來把事做得好努力跟做得好是兩回事情你覺得你有中立嗎?我中立本席是無黨籍的我沒有任何政黨的奧援沒有任何政黨的支持可是我發現你是非常的不中立喔那我先請問你一下今天我有凍結你的預算對於原住民長期來選舉的困境請問你知道我們的困境有什麼嗎?"},{"start":5603.966,"end":5624.212,"text":"我想第一個經常被關心的就是有關原住民投票的秘密性你一講話我就去掉了一分鐘你快一點好不好我已經告訴你了投票秘密的問題最近關心的還包括原住民例如立法委員他的補選缺額補選的問題等等還有呢還有不在籍投票"},{"start":5631.821,"end":5657.311,"text":"這個已經是在立法院了耶不再舉投票對已經在立法院準備要政黨協商了耶那麼重要好我告訴你吧有幾個部分第一個是原住民的投票率非常的低對不對為什麼會低因為投票秘密的問題然後第二個就是因為不再舉投票的問題然後第三個就是我們要投票的時候現場人根本不曉得原住民是哪一個顏色甚至於把我們的票放在抽屜裡面"},{"start":5658.351,"end":5677.013,"text":"然後看到的是原住民的之後跟他說我是原住民然後才從抽屜裡面拿出這樣子的票來給我們原住民的族人投票這不僅僅是很久的問題了我在上一屆的時候已經在上個會期我已經說了而且我也凍結你的預算結果呢你給我的書面報告是什麼您知道嗎"},{"start":5680.363,"end":5697.899,"text":"過去我們有若干的瑕疵對原住民投票的部分是有若干的瑕疵但是我們也有一些改進以及精進的作為我提出凍結案要希望你提出具體可行改善的專案報告請問一下你今天的專案報告是什麼"},{"start":5699.653,"end":5723.313,"text":"你們說明一下既然你說你跟你的同仁都很努力都很認真原住民投票的問題不是一兩天的問題已經是那麼多次了您說一下有關於這個不在籍投票的部分其實這個牽涉到我們一貫的這個選務的這個進程的問題所以不在籍投票我們是認為應該是要從對市比較單純的這個"},{"start":5728.477,"end":5753.703,"text":"公民投票來開始而且這個不在籍投票它有很多的方式我們認為在這個移轉投票的部分是已經有實施的經驗我們就從移轉投票來開始進行那這樣子的案子在上一屆提進來了屆期不連續這一屆我們也再提進來了那是不是可以請委員也幫忙這部分我們先來推動"},{"start":5754.763,"end":5773.029,"text":"你自己給我的報告你看了沒有我現在告訴你吧你的報告裡面講原住民不在局投票報告中提到的確會降低族人的交通成本這有助於族人參與投票理論上是雖屬可行的當然可是對不對是可行的嘛對吧"},{"start":5775.249,"end":5801.995,"text":"有各方面的考量理論上是可行的嘛然後你們告訴我說因為內政部他們認為有投票秘密的問題請問主委投票秘密的問題有數據來支持你的論述嗎還是你自己的想像從制度上的設計當然我們可以來討論也許它會有一些疑慮是有待於澄清的"},{"start":5802.935,"end":5826.994,"text":"請問一下你們報告裡面承認不再提投票是可以改善原住民投票率那你們具體改善的作為是什麼不再提投票的部分嗎我想這個不再提投票的部分需要更進一步的討論你知不知道我們已經提案了而且我做召委的時候已經審過了然後現在已經在朝野協商了那你認為我們的版本你支持嗎"},{"start":5827.734,"end":5850.469,"text":"如果朝野協商大院形成共識你們經過這個院會通過的話作為執行機關我們就按照法律規定來執行所以您認為我們只要在大院裡面通過你們就認為沒問題對不對那當然我們必須要依法執行謝謝你的尊重同樣的問題在選務疏失上面你們提出的是要加強宣導請問你們要怎麼樣實際改善選務疏失的問題"},{"start":5854.837,"end":5877.195,"text":"我們不斷地來進行各項的一個教育訓練那除了這個...將你任內就教育訓練六年啦沒有錯但是我也請...可是還是沒有改善啊我有請...是有改善啦有改善這個...沒有改善啊每一次的選舉它動員...沒有改善這一次立法委員總統的選舉我們還收到投訴書"},{"start":5880.644,"end":5903.793,"text":"每一次的選舉啦 動員的人數達到那請你告訴我 要怎麼樣具體提出可行改善的改善方案你就只是告訴我說 你要持續的宣導那以前也在宣導啊訓練不只是宣導啦 我們加強訓練那要怎麼訓練 請你告訴我現在請你告訴我要怎麼訓練我已經透過今天要解凍你的案啦"},{"start":5907.486,"end":5909.128,"text":"加強訓練怎麼樣 加強訓練嗎我們每次選務辦理之前都會把選務人員的訓練列為考核很重要的項目"},{"start":5921.584,"end":5928.129,"text":"那然後呢如果出錯的話他考核就有問題嗎然後你認為就是說我們如果原住民在現場看到又有這種情況我們要記他的名字嗎用手機把它錄下來嗎這個在整個考核法整個過程都是公開透明的包括如果有一些疏失的話選民都會"},{"start":5942.96,"end":5971.432,"text":"選民也都會給我們主委今天我要解凍你的預算啦你怎麼考合法請你告訴我我們在考積的部分也都會做考量怎麼樣考積嘛只要原住民投訴就有問題是不是投訴之後我們要去調查調查完了之後呢調查完了如果是有疏失的話我們在考積的部分啊都會做適當的處置主席啊你看一下我們今天要怎麼解凍他的案子啊"},{"start":5974.547,"end":6001.036,"text":"在書面報告我也沒有看到今天我在這邊質詢他他還講不出個所以然來所以主委你根本沒有把原住民這樣子長期以來選務的問題放在您的心上你還算中立嗎我看到的是你當中選會你只挑你想做的東西然後呢你想做的東西你就趕快來處理甚至於根本不適任您的位置你講出這些一些不合理的話請你不要講話我還沒有請你回答"},{"start":6003.957,"end":6018.434,"text":"我請你回答的時候你說不出個所以然來然後不讓你回答的時候你又在這邊不具你的身份在這邊回答你認為你是合格嗎?合適嗎?我合格我要再講的是中選會李主委我在這邊真的奉勸你"},{"start":6021.01,"end":6046.718,"text":"全國人民都在看全國人民也都認為你是一個不適任的中選會主委因為為什麼你挑你想做的事情然後呢就特別專心做你的問題原住民選務的問題我們已經是長期以來沒有辦法解決的問題你在這裡任職六年了而我在立法院23年了我不斷的質詢"},{"start":6049.228,"end":6055.893,"text":"為什麼我們原住民投票率那麼低就剛剛回到那個問題嘛低咪咪投票嘛"},{"start":6056.84,"end":6086.34,"text":"秘密投票解決了沒有解決了你就藝人的問題請問一下藝人才是秘密投票嗎兩人不是秘密投票嗎三個人不是秘密投票嗎所以中規的問題原住民為什麼投票率低跟秘密投票有問題有關係既然你們不願意解決所謂的不在局投票我們就從秘密投票開始可是秘密投票開始你們進度又非常非常的緩慢"},{"start":6086.842,"end":6086.863,"text":"好"},{"start":6088.018,"end":6116.275,"text":"那講不在籍投票吧跟我們所謂的公投把它脫鉤你們有很多的意見中選會推給內政部很抱歉喔主委我不僅僅凍結你的預算我也凍結了內政部的預算我要讓你們兩個這部會好好的坐下來談尤其不在籍投票已經在朝野政黨協商了我們更希望你剛剛告訴我只要立法院三讀通過"},{"start":6117.659,"end":6140.086,"text":"你們就尊重我們希望協商能夠順利你們就尊重吧通過當然我們依法來執行謝謝您在這邊我還是誠懇的建議您主委我在這邊還是誠懇的建議您希望你作為一個知識分子的良知希望你作為一個全體人民的中選會"},{"start":6142.026,"end":6168.215,"text":"希望你站在這個位置上是領人民的納稅錢是要替全民做事而不是替政黨做事你的年紀非常大了我希望在你退休之後能夠留一個好名聲而不是讓全國的百姓認為最不中立的中選會就是您全國百姓不會看到我全國百姓是每一個政治人物他都會檢驗"},{"start":6170.305,"end":6187.915,"text":"我這次就檢驗你我不是任何政黨的我覺得你非常的不中立今天呢我對於中選會的預算我還是認為我必須要凍結以上 謝謝好 請劉許廷召委"},{"start":6199.639,"end":6204.08,"text":"好 謝謝主席還有會主委有請好 請管處委委員好主委早安這個我們之前討論海巡署的一個凍結的預算其實裡面有一個非常重要的理由就是在於有關於人力的增補嘛我們都知道海巡其實這幾年幾乎變成所謂的第二海軍嘛擔負海防的重任"},{"start":6228.607,"end":6248.555,"text":"那您在各式各樣的報告新聞也好其實也都在在強調這個海巡的重要性這甚至我們在這個上個禮拜通過的紀念日及節日實施條例裡面我們都要寫海巡節對不對所以說我們都非常重視海巡同仁的這個工作待遇喔那我看了一下你們這個解凍的專案報告的一些內容當然啦就是說有談"},{"start":6250.135,"end":6269.416,"text":"要如何來增加這個海巡人力的增補嘛但之前我們提質疑並且討論的時候就有講嘛就是說你本來就有規劃從111年開始用五年為期要逐年來增補一萬三千多名的員額缺口嘛是不是但是按照現在來講是補足而不是有一萬多個缺口"},{"start":6269.616,"end":6293.199,"text":"是一萬多人啊但是還有缺口對不對按照你的執行我更正一下按照你的那個數字啊111年還有571位112年848位113年1272位所以這個缺口不但沒有縮小反而越來越大所以我們那時候才提了所謂的預算凍結案就希望說你有提出一套完整的配套措施可以來改善這樣的問題嘛對不對是"},{"start":6294.58,"end":6314.834,"text":"那我看了你專案報告裡面的一些內容當然有提了一些方法但是沒有把具體的數字寫出來本行是覺得比較可惜的你們預期啊這個114年你們可以補到多少人這個缺口有沒有辦法縮小你們心中預期的數字是多少公務員報告我們的預算我們的原額的缺口呢其中有一個部分440個原額是即將要由國防部由"},{"start":6320.018,"end":6333.135,"text":"義務役來給我們補足那以海巡目前來講的話最主要的人力的缺口是在岸巡所以岸巡主要都是軍職而且都是義務役因此在義務役全面徵兵"},{"start":6335.457,"end":6360.643,"text":"恢復了以後我們全面招募的情況之下我們已經取得了有440個元額可以來挹注我們海巡那這個部分對於缺口是很有幫助的那另外就是說我們今年開始的加薪也已經很明顯的看到我們甚至於有一些離職的同仁都很希望能夠回流所以今年在這個數字我們希望會有比較好的成果"},{"start":6361.656,"end":6368.263,"text":"所以你現在按你111年的五年計劃就是你目標要達成13,091名的原額目標對不對那今年是114年你現在的數字是多少"},{"start":6372.199,"end":6396.784,"text":"我們現有是一萬一千七百多名一萬一千七嘛所以還差一千多對不對一千 接近兩千左右嘛我們補足了這四十四十個人而補四百四十個但是我們的離退率會下降然後我們今年也會有招募的成果那今年到目前為止的招募的成果我目前還在等海巡做一個記報過來是不是那個署長今天來你們旁邊幕僚可不可以要說明一下好來我們請署長說明"},{"start":6399.168,"end":6413.047,"text":"根據近三年的自營士兵禁用我們是逐年增加的那退損的部分人員逐年減少也就是說我們現在招募的成效是比退損的是好的"},{"start":6413.467,"end":6434.424,"text":"那所以預估我們未來的這個人員補足部分啦是再過一兩年我們就可以全部把它補足另外這中間有一部分的是那個艦艇的艦隊分組艦艇的人員那這個部分是根據他交艦的情形期程不同那我們會跟人事長做其實我要聽的就是實際上的數字嘛你115年的目標是13091嘛那你114年會是多少115年會是多少其實就這樣子而已啊你們有辦法給出這樣的數字嗎"},{"start":6442.945,"end":6468.944,"text":"關乎預算能不能順利解凍 因為我們就是要明確嘛其實就是監督嘛 對不對來 主委 114年的話預計是多少我們希望你剛剛有明確講一個400多 我覺得很OK但是其他的咧我們以111年的退損跟113年的退損來講的話我們的退損已經減少了20%你不要再跟我講別人 你跟我講那個到底會補多少就好"},{"start":6469.524,"end":6478.029,"text":"你如果現在因為你說你要等季報對不對你趕快回去蒐集一下但你趕快再因為我們今天開會還要討論解凍趕快把書面補上來好不好我想除了這440個元我們的離退率有改善就是你剛剛講的離退率的結論我們算一個數字來對你要算一個簡單的數字也就是說114年是多少115年可以達到13,091"},{"start":6489.637,"end":6501.25,"text":"我們當然目標值是13,118但是我們希望能夠補足這個剩下來的對嘛 我就是要知道你逐年補打算補多少 能補到多少我數字最後會算給委員好 再來我要問第二個問題是"},{"start":6503.913,"end":6525.525,"text":"現在不管是軍職或者是警職其實在待遇的部分其實都是用授權條款的方式來處理但我相信管主委也知道這過去我在質詢的時候也提過現在大院裡面有在討論這個軍人待遇條例要做修正也就是說所有的志願役未來可能都會一致來做大幅的加薪當然就是可以強化軍職人員入這個大家投身軍旅的這個待遇嘛"},{"start":6525.965,"end":6549.851,"text":"那我想這個對於軍職人員來說是很大的一個振奮對不對那問題又要來了嘛因為海巡狀況比較特殊嘛我軍警文都有那我們現在先以內外情來分大概外情部分以軍職跟警職為主如果這個軍人待遇條例順利的在大院修正通過是不是軍職的待遇會大幅上升加兩萬加三萬等等會有一個調升那請問警職的海巡會不會出現相對剝奪感"},{"start":6551.187,"end":6574.58,"text":"跟委員報告我們在僅職的福利的部分其實晚期我們也已經爭取到兩個加級很有可能要被核定那因為現在正在走程序我就比較不便對外來說明那除此以外呢我們還有一個僅僅加級的部分是三十幾年沒有調整過那這個部分也是我們下個階段要來跟行政總署溝通的一個很重要的一個品"},{"start":6575.02,"end":6596.252,"text":"所以我現在要問你的問題就是比你講的要更深水區因為過去在授權的時候你行政院之前也幫志願役調過戰鬥加急對不對但因為他沒有辦法一體施用就產生了很多混亂現在是有可能我們在這個部分有進展有可能會有你今天聽我把話講完就是說現在有可能是軍人待遇條例會有一個明定所有志願役可能加2萬或3萬這樣子的一個數字對不對"},{"start":6598.473,"end":6627.002,"text":"其實各種家籍加起來以後我們過去相當程度是所有各種不同的身份各種不同類型的家籍加總以後相當程度是有達到某種程度的平衡你現在的意思是說你譬如說以行政院他們自己調的對不對你們互相處理可以達到一個平衡但現在是有立法對不對所以立法的強度更高然後針對軍人會更高這對你海巡軍職人員是有幫忙的但是海巡警職人員那我們是不是也要比照辦理我現在問你這個的意見"},{"start":6628.463,"end":6648.937,"text":"很難說比照辦理因為加急的項目不一樣所以剛剛我跟委員講的有兩項是用在緊實同仁身上的那我們晚近的溝通已經有成果目前在走程序那第三項就是緊情加急我們如果能夠在緊情加急的部分三十幾年沒有調也再度調整的話相當程度之間的落差就比較不會成"},{"start":6649.377,"end":6670.603,"text":"就是說你的意思是說你這三項對不對按照你的試算結果加上去之後會跟也許通過的軍人待遇條例會一樣嗎會對稱嗎目前我們在海上的待遇的總體跟在陸域待遇的總體海上就比較高了我不是問你海上跟陸上是軍職跟警職的待遇會不會差很多海上就是警職陸上就是軍職居多所以你認為說不會出現相對剝奪感嗎但是前提是你剛剛講那三項加薪要通過嘛對不對"},{"start":6677.826,"end":6692.403,"text":"目前有兩項已經有共識兩項有共識一項要因為是涉及緊急加急還有警政署另外一項緊急加急我們持續再溝通那你這三項海上加急我簡單做個小結論海上加急緊急加急已經調過了海上加急的部分我簡單做個結論就是說你現在"},{"start":6697.429,"end":6718.921,"text":"在你可以授權的範圍內你做了若干的努力對不對所以可能有幾項有達成共識但是還有一項緊緊加緊我要問的問題是這三項加起來跟可能通過軍人待遇你認為不會有落差我再跟你確認一次跟主席報告我們本來喔在海上就會比在陸上所以再多一點是是是是你這樣好那那我再來就要再追問你這三項最後可以拍板上路的時間是什麼"},{"start":6720.926,"end":6741.467,"text":"我們公開行政程序前兩項目前在走行政程序那因為他跟軍職的專業的這個家綺呢要一起來處理所以到時候可能就看人總走這個行政院的程序因為我是覺得你們如果對基層弟兄要好其實也沒有必要什麼保密到家但是齊成其實是最重要的嘛"},{"start":6741.687,"end":6766.219,"text":"我要抓的是時間是什麼主要談的跟國防部在一起的是戰航管家級戰航管家級會調這個因為今天的時間比較短你很難講清楚一樣這個比較剛剛你有一個缺額的逐年補足的這樣子的一個KPI這是第一個第二個你相對來講幫海巡的軍警職如何來提升待遇如何來做平衡他的其成是什麼好不好你一樣會後你要補報告來喔"},{"start":6767.94,"end":6790.155,"text":"會 但是我跟委員報告我們海巡整體來講目前是處在士氣非常高昂的階段所以福利是一個問題沒有錯他們都知道長官有盡力在幫他們爭取而且委員也都很支持能夠提升待遇我相信不管是你做委還有會主委或是我們做立法委我們都會支持但是我就希望這件事情明確然後它可以落地嘛"},{"start":6790.495,"end":6809.572,"text":"對不對因為我之所以這麼急著要這份資料是萬一軍人待遇條例通過萬一出現落差然後你行政機關沒有辦法用授權條款去處理這個問題的時候我可能我這邊就要啟動警察這邊我就要再修法啦對不對但你能不能做到我會給行政機關時間嘛但是你要明確的可以講出你到底調生了多少哪些人受惠了"},{"start":6809.932,"end":6831.483,"text":"平不平衡有沒有辦法這個讓警察人員也一樣得到好的待遇就這樣子而已最主要是合理化最主要是合理化而不是說比較啊剝奪感啊我比較不希望大家到像這裡去思考數額時間好不好你這個會後提供你如果覺得說現在壓力很大你要給我個密件你讓我自己要知道也可以好不好但是你要讓我知道"},{"start":6832.143,"end":6850.109,"text":"這樣我們才知道未來我們要不要透過修法的方式來解決這個問題還是大家可以透過我們就是詢答透過溝通的方式就讓海巡的待遇提升方向都是一樣的好不好這個請主委多用點心因為我覺得把待遇弄好其實是補足一萬三千多這個讓你可以達標一萬三千多人最重要的事情嘛主委應該不反對這樣說吧好那就請主委趕快提供資料可以嗎好謝謝"},{"start":6861.462,"end":6862.703,"text":"好 請蔓越真委員謝謝主席 有請陸委會的主委好 請邱主委蔓越真好主委好"},{"start":6886.891,"end":6909.562,"text":"今天我是針對幾個議題而請教我們的主委我們是不是說我們學生要繳作業的時候是不是天經地義的老師要給學生打分數的時候是不是要看到作業但是學生不想給作業卻要求老師要給"},{"start":6912.583,"end":6917.546,"text":"及格還有滿分如果你是老師你覺得這樣合理嗎當然不合理當然不合理對不對 你也認同嘛所以我們今天要看到陸委會的法證業務預算凍結20%條件為三個月內提出"},{"start":6934.757,"end":6937.838,"text":"兩岸協調監督條例研議進度報告應該雖然是期限內報告但不僅是陳述研議的歷程為明確提出法條的草案或版本的表層所以我想要問你說自從103年起"},{"start":6957.705,"end":6968.327,"text":"已經大家都在關注這件事情入委會到今天仍無明確的法案的明定的版本請問這樣是什麼理由"},{"start":6969.461,"end":6987.48,"text":"跟委員報告 我們在今天早上的書面報告也有很清楚的表述就是兩岸協議監督條例在當年2016年的時候 各黨團也有提出相關的版本但是由於爭點甚多 那麼當時候未達成共識"},{"start":6990.163,"end":7006.414,"text":"另外一方面就是那時候兩岸關係啊也不是在處理這個做焦點那我們基於在2019年元月二號那麼習五條提出兩制台灣方案我們認為有關於民主協商的這個對台灣的統戰這個比較嚴重所以我們"},{"start":7010.197,"end":7024.525,"text":"有優先去推動兩條例第五條之三有十項這個民定的條文來處理涉及到政治議題的協商我們建立了高標準高門檻的民主監督法制"},{"start":7025.245,"end":7045.917,"text":"至於您剛剛提到的非涉及政治議題的兩岸協議監督條例以我們的做法因為我們把最重要的核心的法治工作做完了那其他的部分我們認為按照現行的兩岸條例第五條規定那麼過去呢我們行政部門跟立法部門都已經完成了"},{"start":7046.357,"end":7066.031,"text":"二十六項的協議的審查跟備查的程序那麼我們也有很多的經驗所以尚無至愛那麼所以我們會認為現階段兩岸制定兩岸協議監督條例暫無它的急迫性跟必要性但是我們也認為如果因為這個涉及國會監督的權限"},{"start":7069.153,"end":7092.794,"text":"幾位 幾位我要問你的東西不是你要問你的東西你回我不是回答的是你其他的業務我們問的是說因為我看到你的報告中還有沒有看到任何具體法案內容的草案還有就是說委員報告持續以行政演繹"},{"start":7094.195,"end":7104.123,"text":"言商 難道只會是言喻再言商 再協商再言商我看到你的裡面是這樣子 不像你現在說的我們時間可限 因為我們就"},{"start":7108.746,"end":7113.27,"text":"五分鐘六個單位我問你已經超過多少分鐘了你報告的我要問你但是你的資料沒有齊全啊所以說要版本解凍但是你講的跟你你給我們的報告裡面多寫說在延伤在延益所以我們沒有看到啊我們給你三個月但是你講的"},{"start":7132.325,"end":7142.913,"text":"你要我們提出版本我們有研議我們認為現階段先沒有急後性跟必要性明確的版本啦不要一直在研議研商已經三個月了請我們研議並不是要我們提出來所以我們一直認為如果有需要的話"},{"start":7150.338,"end":7178.047,"text":"應該是由立法院從國會的角度來提審查我們由行政部門來說來審查的強度這個似乎已經第九屆第十屆都有其他委員提出到現在為止我們黨部很重視這個也教你提出但是你的報告裡面就是言商言議在言議我們認為現行的法制作業已足以來處理這一塊"},{"start":7181.009,"end":7196.443,"text":"所以說我們今天是要來解凍你的法案你沒有報告你的法案也沒有寫我們的法案這樣就叫我們怎麼樣給你解凍呢所以說如果是這樣的案如果委員要提出我們尊重我們也提供我們的意見"},{"start":7198.144,"end":7219.493,"text":"對不對 是不是這樣子的意思所以我覺得你真的沒有提出我們要求的我們是要求的解凍的案你就是要把解凍的案來去做報告說明還有說有明確的不是說你講其他的業務其他業務給你三天三夜講不完我們的看法以及我們整體的評估作業"},{"start":7220.413,"end":7232.445,"text":"同時我們也跟委員報告但是我們要求的看法要求的我們需要的你沒有去講啊我們問A要叫你解剖的東西你要給我們提出行政院版本的兩岸協議監督條例我們經過非常認真的評估認為現階段沒有急迫性跟必要性如果委員你要來提出的話我們會尊重我們也會到時候提供我們的"},{"start":7244.677,"end":7273.832,"text":"所以我們要求的就是你認為不要就是不用解凍我們認為現階段沒有急迫性跟必要性所以這樣你就是不要我們要求的你覺得不要所以我們就不用解凍但是你們交付我們評估的我們要很認真報數我聽起來是這樣所以因為時間的關係但是呢因為我們有六個單位我們主席一定要讓我們最少要問到三個吧不能說六分鐘就是就變成一個單位"},{"start":7274.252,"end":7279.016,"text":"沒有解釋清楚沒有做清楚就沒有了我們接下來我想要請教一下我們的海洋委員會的我們的主委"},{"start":7290.247,"end":7295.868,"text":"委員好 主委好因為我們的業務費預算凍結了30%就是等於說我們的海洋政策的整體推動 欠缺效果我們的海委會內執行的計畫協同不足等於是質疑所以其實我們解凍報告卻有說"},{"start":7316.413,"end":7343.009,"text":"參與會議等空泛的文字作為就是效果的呈現所以這些會議的實質產出為何如何促成具體法案或個跨部會的政策的推動是否有量化的指標或者比如說新進計劃的執行或者政策執行的實效還有縮短的效率等等所以可以說明一下嗎"},{"start":7343.929,"end":7362.749,"text":"各位委員報告如果說我們沒有在8月以前完成解凍的話我們大概所有的包括醫務費跟一般基本的運作到8月份的時候我們大概就會遇到非常非常重大的困難我們現在就是有辦法維持到8月份那8月份以後就會遇到非常重大的困難"},{"start":7363.53,"end":7385.883,"text":"所以我們很希望說能夠盡速給予我們來解凍那因為到八月份的時候各項的包括本會包括所有的附屬機關我們的執行率都會達到95%以上所以在這個部分我們有時間上的急迫性因此很希望我們這一次的解凍能夠得到委員的支持"},{"start":7387.173,"end":7402.518,"text":"所以我們今天才要來說來審查來解凍希望說我們提出有具體的嘛這樣子我們才能是解凍因為給我們就是三天三天讓我們去看"},{"start":7403.058,"end":7430.755,"text":"所以呢我們如果資料不齊全啊我們就問的時間又那麼短缺所以我們希望說開會的理由還有說的介紹的依據還有說我們那麼認真大家就是希望把它解凍嘛齁我們一直來我都幫你額略啦全部會 你就不會去講一些有的沒有的認真去做事的的人齁所以我們就監督在野榜的委員就是無法要"},{"start":7432.196,"end":7456.916,"text":"看的資料就不齊全我們才要想說如果有這樣子的相關的話是不是可以給我們我們才能說就是你講的是我們說因為凍結預算所以你們沒辦法但是現在是解凍所以我們希望說有這樣子的具體的資料再麻煩你舉一個例子譬如說我們東沙的同仁他如果要放假的話我們現在是給他們搭飛機回來"},{"start":7458.937,"end":7477.35,"text":"那如果說我們沒有如期來解凍的話呢他們搭飛機回來就馬上會遇到困難了那這就會影響他們休假的...是啊 所以我們現在就是要積極來解凍嘛我們的書面報告...我們朝委才安排就是一天就六個案就是因為就是要搓營銷飛車了嘛還不是要想要解凍嗎所以我們...你這樣講我抗議喔"},{"start":7485.572,"end":7491.234,"text":"不是 我們解凍就是要一起嘛所以說想要更清楚我們才會說我們要讓這個費用趕快解凍讓大家去做嘛好 再來我們就問接下來說我們的海巡業務費這樣子的凍結也是30%我們報告裡面就是說完成"},{"start":7508.3,"end":7514.025,"text":"演訓練的就是很多的場次但是我們辦理教育訓練的裝備添購但我們必須要追問的是說我們教育訓練場次是否是人數是否的那個預算還有就是規模有沒有相符訓練後的成效或者評估有這樣子的報告"},{"start":7532.762,"end":7534.284,"text":"因為我們要解凍就要了解所以說我們的裝備要購買還有說公開採購的程序有沒有時機交付投入的這樣子的運用所以因為我們"},{"start":7550.039,"end":7565.085,"text":"我們的採購都是公開採購我們一定都走公開採購的程序因為目前報告裡面沒有看到走證的資料所以說想要再確認有沒有具體的因為委員關心了以後我們有準備一個公開採購的項目的報告我們會後再給委員"},{"start":7571.468,"end":7579.431,"text":"好 這樣就麻煩我們主委好 謝謝再來最後一分鐘我想要問一下我們的那個中選會我們請"},{"start":7594.042,"end":7613.39,"text":"我想要請教一下我們有針對就是裡面就一個小項而已基本行政作業維護就是維持費就是說一般事務費編列了759萬4千多其中凍結了10%但是當解凍報告裡面聲稱說以"},{"start":7622.453,"end":7644.158,"text":"預算編列原則與節約的規定使用但是我們在說明具體的時候沒有看到就是支出的明細還有績效的效果我們看到的就是依據你寫的最大的目標就是說列為合理編列就是合理的"},{"start":7645.219,"end":7658.893,"text":"編列合理就是這四個字就可以能解凍就是形同我們就是形式的審查而已因為我們這個案子其中就是有我們的有七"},{"start":7661.175,"end":7667.297,"text":"七萬五 七十五萬七十五萬我們只有結凍說七十五萬的對於就是選務的設備精進或者系統的就是資訊的系統安全更新等重要的業務但是我們沒有看到具體的投入啦所以這個部分我們希望說我們的中選會這邊有比較具體一點我們才知道因為我們已經在今天"},{"start":7689.005,"end":7694.05,"text":"我們要給大家的是三個月來去寫解凍的報告我們給各個部會是三個月但是今天我們給我們的資料只有三天還有我們要有教授只有六分鐘來去問各個部會"},{"start":7711.385,"end":7718.389,"text":"但是我們看到一張紙就是一億兩張兩億三張三億所以我們政府的預算就是這樣子審查的嗎所以我們希望各個部會真真的這個都是都是我們血汗錢我們解凍不應該刑事審查所以是應該要有效率的展現各部會應該是依據我們要求的就是"},{"start":7741.24,"end":7747.842,"text":"凍結的要有具體的來去說明所以我們已經沒時間了大家都在加班來去看了但是看你們要給我們的資料就讓我們很失望所以說因為時間的關係我們希望說大家就是有具體的再來給我們因為今天就一天這樣子去解決我覺得真的我們在把關在審查我們的預算真的是太"},{"start":7770.54,"end":7773.963,"text":"我們在做社團的在每一個社團要去爭取經費兩萬塊就要去說明還要去報告但是我們一張說明就一億我們沒辦法接受這個部分我們再請我們各部會再來去真正的是把"},{"start":7793.823,"end":7805.728,"text":"所有的計畫真的具體讓我們了解讓我們真的是知識才不會造成後面再花一筆錢這樣子到最後變成什麼怪我們沒有審查還是怪你們亂花所以這個就是我的要求以上 謝謝"},{"start":7813.809,"end":7817.012,"text":"我不用回答我們請吳清明委員"},{"start":7831.141,"end":7855.283,"text":"好 各位我們主席 我們議會同仁我們各單位我們的主管請我們今天是我們的解凍案的解決包括海洋委員會 不當黨產中選會 還有陸委會 還有客委會今天我們真的非常高興能看到我們的預算的解凍案"},{"start":7856.004,"end":7868.224,"text":"我們今天希望能順利的來處理啦讓各部會有正常的運作那我現在我先請我們的中選委我們的主委好 請李主委"},{"start":7872.762,"end":7890.115,"text":"委員好好主委好主委我還是針對上個禮拜上個禮拜我提出的我們現在又面臨了那個罷免案那我實際上看到我們中選會的一倍金剩下一百萬那行政院的第二一倍金又"},{"start":7891.476,"end":7906.807,"text":"僅以六千七百萬那針對我們未來這個罷免案那麼多人的罷免那經費又那麼龐大那未來這個經費的來源要怎樣來取得這是我們目前最頭痛要去思考的問題"},{"start":7907.968,"end":7934.794,"text":"是的 的確這個罷免案的進行需要經費的支撐但是因為罷免案我們在邊概算的時候沒有辦法預料他到底有沒有或者是有幾個案子因此往例呢都是在罷免案成立的時候呢我們向行政院來申請第二預備金動資那第二預備金才六千七百萬那也不過啊"},{"start":7936.806,"end":7942.486,"text":"那可能行政院這邊會跟立法院來磋商吧請立法院也能夠支持"},{"start":7943.865,"end":7965.919,"text":"好的 因為本席看到這個預算 看到未來的經費比較擔憂那你未來你整個罷免案的再實施的話你經費來源還是有問題 那也是自愛難行啊這個是法定必須支出的事項 而且權責是在中央政府所以我們希望這個問題能夠大家來圓滿的解決"},{"start":7969.465,"end":7976.589,"text":"好的那主委辛苦了謝謝主委你請回那我請陸委會好請就主委主委好好主委好主委我看到我們的手邊的預算兩岸的中介事務的預算高達2億5957萬"},{"start":7995.373,"end":8015.689,"text":"那也超過較去年的成長了40%那本席比較想了解的現在我們港澳這一邊我們港澳這一邊的辦事處現在有沒有正常在運作公務員報告我們在香港目前沒有派駐同仁在澳門有兩位同仁"},{"start":8016.565,"end":8040.172,"text":"那我們處理這個港澳業務呢我們都有一個後端的一個監督小組來處理港澳的政策目前還正常運作我們勉勵來維持我們駐館的業務我們希望能夠服務我們台港的民眾特別是國人赴港澳"},{"start":8041.292,"end":8058.77,"text":"都有一個辦事處可以服務他們同時我們沒有策管的原因也是增加我們在香港澳門我們很多的投資企業的一些信心讓他們能夠在當地持續的安居樂業"},{"start":8059.721,"end":8089.541,"text":"那香港跟澳門,澳門兩個那香港沒有,那香港的辦事處還存在嗎?有,我們有40幾位的僱員仍然在處理各種文書驗證以及急難救助還有鎮灶核發等相關業務還在正常進行也跟委員報告我們這兩年的香港的觀光客人數不是第一位就第二位那麼也有賴我們駐港人員的權利的投入"},{"start":8091.462,"end":8112.378,"text":"對因為我們不管是台商也好不管是觀光客也好他那邊還是要有必要的我們台灣的辦事處在那邊做協助這是本市比較關心的因為畢竟我們台灣在香港澳門那邊還是很多人是那有增長運作這是我們所期待的好謝謝謝謝我們主委謝謝好現在請我們海洋委員會好請管主委"},{"start":8124.571,"end":8143.879,"text":"好 主委 是現在海洋司法會具體的推展那本市還是很肯定啦因為我們海巡 以及海洋委員會很多的業務的推動 也需要說主委的帶動啦因為畢竟我們有地方有很多非法的漁船在台灣海峽附近"},{"start":8150.141,"end":8176.411,"text":"不管是挑釁也好 不管說從事非法的補餘也好我們海神都要秉持著說 要維持著我們的潛力啦所以說海神是非常辛苦這點本身是非常重點 非常非常關心我們的預算沒有解凍未來對我們整個海神的推動都是自愛難惜所以說今天我們看到說"},{"start":8178.752,"end":8195.645,"text":"交易來辦這個翁的結凍案我認為這一定要趕快解決不然你後面還有半年的時間你根本就沒辦法去推動是我們到8月的時候就完成不下去了請大家注意未來結凍是不是說推動來的會更加順利謝謝委員支持好謝謝感謝翁主委好那現在我請我們客委會"},{"start":8210.994,"end":8211.377,"text":"好請客"},{"start":8217.981,"end":8246.274,"text":"好 委員好好 主委好主委我看我們那個客家客家的語言的流失的效法的幅度非常的大這針對我們客家的語言未來我們要怎麼去讓客家語言能夠從下扎根讓你一些小朋友你就要讓他去熟悉我們的客家語言這是本席比較注重因為包括說本席每一年都"},{"start":8247.034,"end":8261.751,"text":"我們的新北市都在辦童話祭嘛童話祭其實越來人口非常多尤其結合我們的客家一些社團包括客使會啊包括說很多我們的客家族群讓他們可以來社攤可以在那裡來推動"},{"start":8264.554,"end":8289.866,"text":"所以說未來我們的客家語言我認為還是要透過一些試劑透過一些社團共同讓我們客家人的下一代他們能接觸我們的客家語言不然你流失的速度非常快今天出來外面大家都沒有人在說客語包括說客家客家人他下一代他也不教他客家語言這是未來我們要去重視的"},{"start":8290.889,"end":8296.132,"text":"是那個很同意委員的說法現在流失率這麼的嚴重確實我們很多經費都是在學校的教育上從幼兒園或者是國小端的教學這個我們相當重視那同時也觸及到社會跟家庭"},{"start":8312.381,"end":8338.119,"text":"那但是還是沒有辦法全面這個我們承認這個確實在整體上的推動還需要很大的力量去推動所以我們的各項的推廣只要是對小朋友他們有學習的能力可以多接觸最相信對未來我們客家語言推動會更加順利好不好是好謝謝主委謝謝委員好謝謝因為時間到了"},{"start":8343.936,"end":8357.963,"text":"好 我們請黃建斌委員謝謝主席 我們有請陸委會主委好 請邱主委"},{"start":8368.602,"end":8390.12,"text":"黃委員好所以首先本席要表達的內容其實是要針對我們各部會來做溝通不是只有針對陸委會那今天是審查我們海委會、各委會、中選會、陸委會總預算報告的結通案那本席相信內政委員會的委員態度都一致就是希望中央能夠儘速送結通報告來我們這樣可以儘速來審議儘速的趕快來動之預算"},{"start":8393.283,"end":8422.248,"text":"但我們攤開整個時間表來看114年年度我們中央政府總預算在今年的1月21號三讀通過2月19號立法院知情賴總統公布那賴總統則是在3月21日才公布那依照過去我們的慣例那當總統公布之後各部會應該就會著手提交相關的這個解凍的專案報告或者是書面報告給立法院那不過這段時間有公務人員吹哨者爆料有高層要求部會押注預算的解凍報告"},{"start":8423.248,"end":8452.387,"text":"那甚至文化部內部的信件更直接說請確認解凍報告不會被解讀成早早就寫好現在才送來的這個字眼而行政院主任長甚至到1月22號才公布表示要各部會解凍案一律全部送出來這有趣的是說當院長這句話一講完立法院就收到各部會的預算解凍報告我想這根本就是坐實各部會其實確實早就準備好這個解凍報告但因為高層的壓力才不敢送"},{"start":8453.488,"end":8478.064,"text":"中央政府是不是政治操作而刻意拖延預算凍結那我想國人的眼睛都是雪亮的那根據中華民國憲法第六條的規定立法院有議決法律案、預算案、建案等重要事項之權這也代表立法院身負憲法賦予的預算審查權目的就是為了要為我們人民守住納稅人的錢因此才會要求各部會"},{"start":8479.554,"end":8501.864,"text":"提出相關的報告跟國人說清楚說我們的錢到底要怎麼用我想這才是政府負責任的一個態度的表現那然而我們立法院在聽取各部會預算解凍報告的內容之後只要預算運用合理我相信絕對都會支持預算解凍讓各部會可以盡快來執行因此本席在這邊要跟各部會再一次表達"},{"start":8502.964,"end":8520.781,"text":"只要合理的使用預算本席絕對支持也希望能夠盡速審議盡速解凍使用我們也希望各部會可以跟立法院積極來溝通不要因為特定高層的壓力而選擇讓政治掛帥製造更多的爭議甚至也讓我們的公務員為難"},{"start":8522.122,"end":8542.361,"text":"那針對今天的專題報告我想因為質詢時間有限本席要特別針對農產的部分為台東的農民來請命我想因為如果兩岸的關係持續的冰凍對台東的農產品衝擊非常大我想這個本席在散會期都不斷的質詢那對於如何要來改善我們從今天陸委會提出的報告仍然看不出有更好的方法"},{"start":8543.393,"end":8561.772,"text":"那主委你在報告中一直強調陸委會跟農業部非常的努力但本席要跟主委報告我相信你們願意努力但是問題是從目前的結果來看農民真的很難感受到那也因為這樣地方政府跟農友必須要自立自強台東縣在饒縣長不斷的如下積極溝通"},{"start":8564.335,"end":8590.294,"text":"好不容易終於才幫助台東的私家恢復銷售往中國大陸那今年初遼縣長也帶團到對岸行銷農產品本席也跟親農也一起過去我想大家的心態都很單純就是我們只想要幫農民找出路那結果沒有想到說居然有往今側翼把這些親農的照片放到網路上說他們是去向中國下跪"},{"start":8591.807,"end":8602.632,"text":"我想這個害無辜的青農又被這些青鳥出征我想這個真的是已經瘋狂到一個極點那地方首長幫農民賣農產品有錯嗎農民幫自己找出物有錯嗎"},{"start":8607.094,"end":8634.996,"text":"我們台灣不能因為政治惡鬥剝奪民生造成人民之間的仇恨跟堆積這是本市一直在要求的那最後本席最後要跟陸委會來表達就是我們千萬不要忘記你們重要的職責之一就是維持兩岸的互動跟關係協助我們兩岸的關係能夠良性的發展那當地方政府願意來分擔部分的責任那協助政府改善兩岸經濟貿易的同時也請中央政府應該要扮演隊友的角色而不是在旁邊"},{"start":8635.797,"end":8656.863,"text":"人眼反光 人言人語甚至攻擊我想要呼籲大家請務必放下政治鬥爭注重民生經濟跟我們地方政府還有民間團體共同來打開產業的活路讓台東的農業觀光可以恢復往日的榮景以上我想跟主委來說這些我心裡的話 謝謝主委"},{"start":8659.224,"end":8674.243,"text":"謝謝黃委員有關於這個台中的這個農業也好觀光也好我想我也多次跟委員說明我們確實要保護我們的農民守護我們的農業那麼由於中國大陸對台還是有很多區別對待"},{"start":8675.004,"end":8698.034,"text":"還是有很多統戰的思考我們怕他說斷就斷反而讓農民更加的血本無歸還有我們公安業者更加的投訴我們所以我們要保障他維護他恐怕對於中國大陸的交流我們要非常審慎以對不過就站在委員這個服務鄉親立場我們也是一樣我們都跟主管部會農業部來保護農民跟我們公安署一樣來協助我們業者我們會全力以赴謝謝委員資訊"},{"start":8704.953,"end":8732.448,"text":"謝謝主委把我們老百姓放在心裡面那本市未來我們也期待能夠一起努力讓我們的人民過更好的生活謝謝主委 謝謝主席好 我們請丁學忠委員感謝主席我要邀請我們這個陸委會的邱主委好 請邱主委"},{"start":8739.434,"end":8753.799,"text":"主委好,主委好,我們定日改,我們陸委會有召開這個記者會,說有接到協議,說有大陸的宗教團體有依據規定申請來台灣,來進行這個宗教的交流,我們陸委會說會依法查判,現在兩方的交流,很侵犯,像這個馬祖、翁爺的信仰,這麼多的交流,"},{"start":8766.044,"end":8767.889,"text":"大陸那些宗教都有關係,也都有在互動,像這樣"},{"start":8773.598,"end":8780.403,"text":"大陸那間的宗教交流,台灣的教育生意都要申請,如果沒有申請,我們算違法?"},{"start":8805.279,"end":8828.712,"text":"這個儀軌的交流典禮的交流或者教育研修的這個交流這涉及到我們台灣也是一個宗教自由的國家我們歡迎做這個交流但是他如果是他本身不具有專業的身份他純粹就是想來參訪 遶境不是專業的這個宗教交流那我們就會審慎看待"},{"start":8829.252,"end":8846.987,"text":"他是不是藉由宗教文化交流來進行統戰或滲透分化我們過去在很多例子當中發現有一些違規違常的現象我們希望是塑造一個健康有序的交流環境也請委員支持我們"},{"start":8848.857,"end":8853.4,"text":"我們現在宗教,是都比較怕去用鐵矯錢,說去用統戰我們宗教信仰,都是一些民間的一個活動當國會 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 進行這個合作的勞勤奮鬥的這個活動有國連團體,去跟我們各國 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、 、"},{"start":8877.94,"end":8878.723,"text":"幾十年來到北京的時候 他們在那裡做事"},{"start":8883.063,"end":8888.304,"text":"結果 國安公司跟他們說 那個時間 鄉下車車 鄉下車車都會進到那個國安地區而且 國安的國共委員 國安警 所有人員 大家都出來發聲來迎接一年一度過三個月的這個改造的這個廢墟的活動非常努力的一個活動"},{"start":8911.05,"end":8926.926,"text":"跟他們說請他們這裡的國務院團隊延遲結果國務院團隊在臉書在網絡說各港人都是中共同路人的中共同路人說我們各港人都會去通戰這種惡質的公法"},{"start":8931.311,"end":8943.703,"text":"主委你有沒有什麼想法?跟委員報告,我們認為任何的政治活動啊,這個不當藉口宗教幾宗教,政敵幾政敵,怎麼可以這樣把我們國家安危?怎麼可以免於我們媽祖?這真的是非常惡劣的一種作法"},{"start":8950.26,"end":8959.924,"text":"我們也希望兩岸的交流不要有統戰化、政治化、風險化那我們都來協助我們相關的團體在進行這個交流能夠降低風險,讓它專業化、單純化"},{"start":8963.049,"end":8966.411,"text":"我們希望我們希望說我們這個宗教交流我們應該要把可行不可行我們把明文規定給很清楚不是用這個個案處理的方式讓人無所適從我們防範統戰當然是重要的但是真正這樣做"},{"start":8986.584,"end":8989.367,"text":"應該要從法律上去認定交流的規範,不是用我們現金手段來對這個個案做研查所以我們會制度化、機制化我們移民署上面會有要求大概一萬兩千台幣的人"},{"start":9006.542,"end":9018.308,"text":"要公告這個已喪失中國戶籍的證明對象是2004年進行就拿到台灣新聞局的大陸去或是說出事在我們中國的主陸有這麼多人都已經在台灣生活了二三十年了早就對大陸一些行政程序比較好實施不知道怎麼找人倒三天"},{"start":9034.856,"end":9042.48,"text":"這個地區,如果有一些地區沒有要出這個證明,這樣人家怎麼來幫我們協助?是,委員你如果不出案,今天都交給我們來幫你處理,跟委員報告是這樣因為我們是依法,必須取得我們台灣身份的人,必須要放棄中國大陸的身份然後把這個放棄中國大陸原籍證明,再繳回來"},{"start":9062.41,"end":9082.744,"text":"這才會合法取得他台灣的身份我們這個是依法行政那過去可能沒有落實我們現在全面來清查但是中華會員說的很重要我們要協助那個不方便的目前現階段沒有能力回去中國大陸或是遇到有什麼自愛難行的我們都來協助他"},{"start":9083.965,"end":9100.662,"text":"我們會看到他的類型看能不能適用我們的這種替代方案或是配套措施能夠在他有能力的時候再回去放棄我們都會來每個個案的輔導如果服務處有相關的案件我們都很願意來協處"},{"start":9101.983,"end":9107.325,"text":"感謝主委 我知道主委都非常願意來協助到一些困難的國分 我在這裡建議 主要我在這裡建議我們政府 針對我們這裡的政策 第一我們是要把它弄清楚這個規矩再來 主要我府府長 第二是各種款項 尤其是這個宗教自由和法治穩定的議題 再來"},{"start":9129.395,"end":9132.559,"text":"就應該要從這個法律面訂出一套清楚的一個制度不是說用我們憲政的方針來對著這個五清五楚的這個制度雙方來給他們做一個抵制還是做一個這個勘決"},{"start":9149.179,"end":9156.762,"text":"希望說我們宗教交流可以給一個查核,我們政府應該站起來,我們這個協助運動的角度來做事情,為他講清楚整個基地的運動,才可以讓兩方交流,有這個秩序,有這個秩序啦,讓他們知道,不會說感覺自己,不然他們奇妙的說,就去抽籤去查查,這樣啦。"},{"start":9172.489,"end":9177.89,"text":"請我們主委在這個部分先講一下好 還有感謝主委 謝謝謝謝主席好 我們請李博義委員好 謝謝先有請海委會主委好 請管主委李委員好"},{"start":9202.301,"end":9212.272,"text":"主委謝謝那今天內政委員會特別到這個大會議室來做這些預算的煽動應該是解凍的這些會議的討論那我想要強調一件事情"},{"start":9219.6,"end":9237.066,"text":"就是主委在4月17號的時候在質詢台上在內政委員會的質詢台上那有表示因為我們在去年做的這些決議裡面刪減預算的部分不得留用那所以今天就算解凍"},{"start":9238.366,"end":9253.09,"text":"希望可以順利解凍11億 海委會的預算裡面但是被刪掉10億不得流用的部分600噸的蘭嶼艦跟1000噸的花蓮艦是不是還是沒辦法交船 主委"},{"start":9253.875,"end":9274.552,"text":"各位委員報告因為我們還有其他被刪減的部分我們真的是在刀口上的錢所以我們要想辦法把它們補足所以在可以留用而被刪減但是又非常有高度急迫性的部分我們給予它補足了以後"},{"start":9275.032,"end":9286.466,"text":"到最後我們總共處理的結果就是有這兩艘艦艇年底的時候我們確實是會延遲交貨所以我要在這邊很嚴正的跟"},{"start":9287.682,"end":9308.849,"text":"曾經刪減過這些預算的藍白委員說今天的解凍希望可以順利解凍的順利其實可以讓我們所有的海巡人員包含油料包含所有的這些包含岸上的這些基地等等的可以有充分的包含水電物資"},{"start":9309.949,"end":9319.358,"text":"可以使用甚至加班費等等是可以使用的如果今天可以解凍順利的話但是刪掉的還是救不回來主委是吧"},{"start":9320.64,"end":9340.311,"text":"刪除的部分我們能救的挪一挪以後就是有這麼多的缺口那其實是不止這一個部分第二個統三的部分國外旅費還有國內旅費還有出國教育訓練費用這個也是在委員會裡面非常熱烈討論的還是被統三了"},{"start":9340.911,"end":9370.242,"text":"所以對於解凍還是會影響到我們的國際交流派員赴美訓練還有相關的這些工程建設的進度這個部分不能留用的項目比較多因此我們遇到的困難也比較大那譬如說國外的授訓旅費等等的話我們確實是必須要縮小規模那以國內旅費來講的話譬如我們海巡署其實已經重大的影響到"},{"start":9371.042,"end":9398.158,"text":"因為我們海巡署是這樣就是說所有的分署還有所有的安檢等等單位是遍佈在全國數百個單位那他們常常必須要國內的旅費他們來開會等等那因為這個經費被刪除的結果我們沒有辦法補那因此整個海巡署他今年公出或者是出公差他的善雜費全部歸零他還有包含很多還包含東沙對 還包含"},{"start":9400.419,"end":9429.663,"text":"包含在東沙如果要回來那要搭飛機的話就會受影響那如果要排成船班或者是要拜託國防部的話就會遇到一些影響所以希望今天的解凍的部分是可以順利我們至少可以救回來至少到七八月以後這個部分因為現在已經五月了嘛我們到八月份很多就真的是沒有辦法像八月份的話"},{"start":9430.443,"end":9436.325,"text":"會本部我們的執行率就要高達99.76那以海保的話就會高達99.87那國海院也會高達96.71%那就算是海巡也是將近95%的執行率所以8月以後我們幾乎會無以為繼"},{"start":9448.308,"end":9474.527,"text":"好 謝謝主委 那我最後算一個簡單的數學行政院提出4100億的國土安全任性計畫裡面包含1500億強化國土安全任性預算裡面有包含周邊海域監測有包含立體徵收 有包含海岸監偵還有包含規劃新型的巡防艦艇"},{"start":9476.104,"end":9490.5,"text":"但是這有1500億那另外還有針對台電的撥補提出1000億那另外還有相關的一些照護民生以及就業安定930億以及1600億這樣加起來是4100億"},{"start":9495.425,"end":9512.721,"text":"在野黨提出來2300億普發現金之外那目前的4100億很明顯的就是超過了那我們希望我們可以來支持由行政院來提出來的這些方案包含國土安全任性謝謝主委你請回"},{"start":9514.342,"end":9532.967,"text":"主委讓你簡單回應一下我跟委員報告我真的非常非常希望國土任性屬於海巡署的這個部分可以被支持為什麼呢因為它將是劃時代的里程碑跟委員報告的話我從就任2023年開始的時候就認為說我們要海空一體"},{"start":9533.547,"end":9560.312,"text":"我們空中的能量是幾乎是沒有辦法達成我們應有的任務那我們水下或者是水面我們也都還不夠我們夜間也都還不夠所以這筆錢如果能夠挹注於海巡署的話海巡署將是一個莫大的蛻變它將會是真正的海空一體立體的能力會建構它將是24小時的能量可以完整的補充起來"},{"start":9561.092,"end":9584.764,"text":"而如果說明年開始我們要用新的財化法這麼重要的一個歷史性的經費我們不知道說用新的財化法下去的話中央的預算能不能挹注海巡署這麼重大的轉型所以這一筆預算如果能夠挹注海巡署至少我們前三年的預算可以確保的話這個重要的歷史的里程碑就可以往前走"},{"start":9585.084,"end":9593.912,"text":"謝謝主委 海巡等同國防我希望我們在這4100億裡面等於加強我們的國防真的非常急迫性的需要再請客委會主委 謝謝好 請谷主委"},{"start":9605.361,"end":9607.424,"text":"主席抱歉我再多一分鐘的時間來釐清為什麼我們用內政委員會為主題那今天來到這邊"},{"start":9615.885,"end":9626.638,"text":"我的印象中在去年審議預算的時候內政委員會並沒有刪除那麼多客委會的預算有凍結4億但是在院會裡面還是被刪除了1億9千萬的預算"},{"start":9634.747,"end":9645.725,"text":"在院會裡面突然跳過委員會把委員會討論的東西全部跳過直接在院會提出二三讀要刪除課委會預算所以身為內政委員會"},{"start":9649.076,"end":9669.368,"text":"不只客家委員他要提出說他在內政委員會並沒有刪除客家委員會的預算沒有凍結客家委員會的預算但是我要強調的這一些客家籍的委員還是在院會投票的時候投出刪除客委會的預算"},{"start":9670.308,"end":9697.257,"text":"包含傅坤祺、林思明、徐欣盈、徐巧欣還是在二三讀的時候大砍課委會預算還是在二三讀的時候凍結課委會預算所以今天我們回到我們委員會希望可以順利凍結主委希望你全力捍衛課委會預算是也謝謝委員以及內委會的委員全力來支持那希望今天的解凍案能夠順利來請委員支持謝謝"},{"start":9704.38,"end":9727.453,"text":"好 我們請黃婕委員好 謝謝主席 我們請陸委會邱主委黃委員好可以放到最大嗎"},{"start":9733.1,"end":9756.727,"text":"好 謝謝主委我這邊要跟你請教一個案子喔因為其實最近我收到非常多有一個泰國的明星就是Leom他們的見面會的相關的陳情案那裡面其實跟這個中資有非常大的關係那是講到說這個粉絲的購票權益一直都有爭議那時候其實我也有馬上請陸委會幫我們協助調查就是這個"},{"start":9758.848,"end":9779.982,"text":"辦這個粉絲見面會的主辦單位超旗娛樂到底是不是背後有中資然後有沒有違反港澳條例那甚至是超旗的這個負責人背後也是他是共青團的成員那是不是他也有這個統戰的背景那那時候不知道我們給陸委會調查之後是不是已經啟動調查了呢跟委員報告不管是兩岸條例或是港澳條例"},{"start":9786.67,"end":9807.135,"text":"這些到台灣來如果說你沒有辦理登記或是成立分公司辦事處你就不能來從事銀商的活動所以他如果因為我們經常他還是一個非法的公司"},{"start":9810.139,"end":9825.148,"text":"如果他是違法在台灣經營這些經商的活動,這屬於非法活動那我們現在也請我們檢調單位密註這個事情,看他有沒有從事這些非法活動"},{"start":9826.149,"end":9839.015,"text":"那我們了解他辦理這個活動目前有關場地的活動或者是售票的活動都是請我們台灣的公司來承辦但是我們還在看主辦方是誰對"},{"start":9842.236,"end":9862.466,"text":"他如果掛名掛上去的話就涉及違法那我們一定依法查辦 嚴格查辦好 謝謝 謝謝主委說明現在的關鍵就是 幫我下一頁他們的主辦單位直接掛超級娛樂但是超級娛樂很明顯他是一個澳門的公司然後母公司在中國那這件事情到底有沒有違法就是我希望陸委會可以協助調查的"},{"start":9863.627,"end":9881.571,"text":"那再來我要請教一下因為現在其實我們台灣很多追星人他們因為參加這樣的活動他們不希望說在追星的時候必須得跪著追星那這就是我希望我們在台灣的政府單位可以讓追星人可以放心的地方我這邊講幾個重點先幫我回到第一頁這個實名制的問題這個對"},{"start":9886.992,"end":9903.975,"text":"這就是因為現在他們很多說因為不知道這個主辦單位到底有沒有疑慮導致說粉絲在買票的時候也會有疑慮說即便如果這個主辦單位真的是中國的公司那他用實名制會不會導致自己的個資被洩漏那這個是現在民眾很擔心的下一頁"},{"start":9904.756,"end":9924.072,"text":"然後再來其實他們中間還有非常多消費爭議的問題就是如果這個主辦單位真的是中國的公司那例如像這樣的問題我們到底台灣能不能處理就是他們現在疑似主辦單位自己就是黃牛甚至是控票蓋票這樣的行為這個是目前粉絲截圖的一個畫面下一頁"},{"start":9925.086,"end":9943.658,"text":"那這個就是現在大家最擔心的因為現在台灣其實有很多這種包括很多韓星、泰星來台灣的活動他們都是中國的公司來承辦那當然台灣他們可能會掛名一個就是類似我不能說他是白手套或是空殼公司但是很明顯"},{"start":9944.898,"end":9960.27,"text":"實質在運作的單位都是中國的公司導致說發生什麼事情這個是今年二月有人參加Rain的演唱會結果他只是在自己的應援物上面寫到台灣就被主辦單位要求不能帶著這樣的應援小物進場"},{"start":9961.531,"end":9980.972,"text":"在台灣喔 這樣的RAND演唱會在台灣辦可是他卻不能寫台灣的應援物進場這是實實在在發生的事情甚至也有其他類似的韓星、泰星的演唱會在台灣都因為主辦單位是中資導致他們在現場沒有辦法提自己的國家在台灣辦耶"},{"start":9982.273,"end":9999.887,"text":"所以這個我希望接下來不要再讓台灣的粉絲連在台灣參加演唱會都還得跪著追星這是我相信很多粉絲在台灣都覺得非常委屈的地方是 謝謝委員的質詢委員的質詢也是我們茶企的重點就是說你來台灣"},{"start":10001.238,"end":10016.937,"text":"辦的這些重要的演唱會或是表演活動一定是要合法的公司沒有合法我們消費者的權益就沒有得到保障包括你剛剛所說的實名制之後他把個資送到哪裡去如果按照我們"},{"start":10018.078,"end":10046.608,"text":"我們個資法我們是要保障我們國人的個資也不能送到境外去這是違法的這個部分我們也會請我們的文化部協同相關機構來做查核更嚴重的是說它如果是中資或者是我們境外敵對勢力辦的這個相關的活動那可能還會矮化台灣那這些都是我們查處的重點謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":10047.068,"end":10051.911,"text":"好 謝謝主委那我最後再提醒一個這個現在也希望我們陸委會可以幫忙關心因為現在在台灣辦的這一場演唱會因為他們在中國也有賣票那現在聽說是有中國的粉絲要用簽證不服的名義"},{"start":10064.919,"end":10092.27,"text":"來到台灣目的是參加演唱會但是他提供了其他的他有一個教學手法跟你說你們來台灣就用什麼簽證什麼簽證但是最後的目的是為了要參加這個演唱會那我不知道這樣子名義不符是不是可以直接去採取然後不要讓這一些名義不符的人拿著這種簽證然後用這種違法的方式偷渡來台呢"},{"start":10093.174,"end":10113.548,"text":"是 如果要挑戰我們通關入境的嚴格的許可的制度我是覺得當事人真的是不要來釋法我想得不償失 應該循著正常的管道來台灣參加表演活動"},{"start":10114.028,"end":10132.083,"text":"好謝謝主委所以這個案子因為他們現在網路上已經出現各種的教學手法教你如何用其他的包括商務簽、醫療簽來到台灣然後你可以來這邊參加演唱會是所以像這樣的案子也希望我們陸委會可以協助來調查"},{"start":10133.264,"end":10156.221,"text":"好謝謝那最後一點時間一點點我希望可以我們海委會的管主委這邊我想要再跟你關心一下因為我看到目前這個我們業務費因為遭凍結三成嘛導致說我們基本的行政運作只能到七八月那我看了真的是膽戰心驚讓我非常擔心我當然希望說趕快這兩天我們就把它解凍掉"},{"start":10157.622,"end":10177.959,"text":"影響我們海巡的基本運作這是我最擔心的那所以這個也希望我們可以如果可以的話再幫我們多加說明多加溝通我們會努力的說明那今天給委員也是厚厚的一本很抱歉那請委員好這個要拜託那最後我還要這個建議一下因為我看到四月底其實我們"},{"start":10179.3,"end":10202.89,"text":"海委會跟屏東的地檢署有合辦了一個海嵐安全聯防地區應變平台那我看到這個新聞我是認為蠻肯定的這是一個好的起頭那是不是也可以在這邊建議既然屏東有了一個這樣的平台示範區那我們這個海嵐聯防的部分是不是跟其他的縣市的地檢署也來合作呢"},{"start":10203.41,"end":10227.602,"text":"那宜蘭地檢署也很稀奇我們也有在這裡要建立平台因為在北部的海域也是海蘭很重要的海域看宜蘭啊 新北啊 或者是其他光是這個海蘭的出口重要的地方都來努力看看好 那我就是以上建議那我也一直非常關心這個海蘭維護的工作那我也覺得海委會非常辛苦希望你們繼續加油謝謝"},{"start":10235.539,"end":10240.385,"text":"好 蘇巧慧委員改書面質詢葉元智 葉元智 葉元智委員不在我們請王紅衛委員"},{"start":10259.773,"end":10268.916,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請我們海委會主委還有海巡署署長好 請管主委跟署長"},{"start":10272.961,"end":10278.965,"text":"委員好主委還有署長前兩天在網路上社群平台有一個爆料海巡2.0他說這個海巡署要求同人協助在臉書上找假帳號這裡面是說你長期在個人臉書發布對台政治攻擊執政黨及提倡兩岸統一的言論疑似為境外異常帳號操作認知作戰"},{"start":10303.101,"end":10307.606,"text":"那而且到各大可能一直有在批評執政黨或是台灣政治的粉絲專頁來尋找而且要把他這個資訊貼到群組那所以呢這個爆料者就認為說海巡的工作的本物是什麼"},{"start":10317.998,"end":10332.867,"text":"然後呢這個難道海巡還要巡到網路上了是嗎這個好像已經完全逾越了原來海巡署同仁他們應有的職務那後來我也看到那個海巡署就有發布新聞稿"},{"start":10333.988,"end":10353.965,"text":"在這個新聞稿裡面呢其實呢他也沒有完全的否認那麼裡面就提到就說如果有疑似中共操縱的異常帳號所以也要海巡署或者權責機關及時更正以安定民心士氣所以我想請教一下主委跟署長我們海巡署的組織法裡面"},{"start":10357.788,"end":10363.33,"text":"那麼我們海巡署同仁包含要去尋網路嗎包含要去針對這個認知作戰他們要去收集這些相關的資訊嗎那這個部分是不是已經逾越到我們海巡署的執掌的業務因為我覺得我們是一個法治的國家所以我想請問一下主委還有或者是署長"},{"start":10383.419,"end":10404.011,"text":"能不能針對這個事情到底你們要讓我們海巡署的同仁到底要做些什麼樣的業務難道他們突然要變身國安局或者是警政署嗎這些事情不應該是警政署跟國安局的職務嗎我想請主委或者是署長能不能說明一下到底你們要求是什麼"},{"start":10404.891,"end":10417.622,"text":"委員剛剛有講到一個重點就是認知作戰我從舉例先開始114年聯合演訓跟海峽雷霆2025A這個時候就出現了一個假新聞這是認知作戰就是說我們的媒體甚至於報導說網路上面在傳說LNG船因為中國的經驗無法進港這是假消息那我們海巡很重要在軍演的時候這個假訊息假訊息是不是應該有"},{"start":10434.595,"end":10439.218,"text":"國安局或者軍演的應對前海巡署認定我們要不要去澄清假訊息要不要打擊假訊息很重要但是今天海巡署海巡署未來是第二海軍"},{"start":10457.631,"end":10478.054,"text":"那我不曉得海巡署還要變成網軍嗎?我錯了委員 這個跟網軍完全無關這個我意思是說我們沒有網軍 海巡沒有網軍但是海巡在因應反制中共灰色地帶襲擾的認知作戰上面我們是第一線重要的部隊我們一定要做軍演的時候這個訊息"},{"start":10479.255,"end":10486.361,"text":"主委 你要不要去讀一下你去讀一下海巡署的組織法所以我要講的是組織法整理的時候海巡的同仁會質疑說今天海巡的工作的本務是什麼這點非常重要"},{"start":10506.118,"end":10513.804,"text":"政府的機關之間本來就有各自的職職所以國鄉請教一下主委同樣的在4100億因為我時間有限趕快問一下比較重要的"},{"start":10525.412,"end":10547.032,"text":"4100億的特別條例因為有1500億是國土安全韌性那這裡面因為其實提到立法院的這部分的敘述非常的有限那裡面就是有提到有關於海巡的設施所以我要講的就是說其實我們要很界定是第一個我們海巡的業務是什麼那海巡"},{"start":10549.574,"end":10553.077,"text":"他現在所缺少的是什麼在預算要補強的是什麼所以你這4100億1500億因為我剛講說加強國土安全韌性不能說六個字要1500億嘛對不對所以我們大約需要300億我給您一點時間好嗎就是說因為我們所看到在立法院送過來立法院的1500億的內容實在是太少了"},{"start":10577.498,"end":10591.312,"text":"所以針對海巡的部分可不可以請主委或者署長來告訴我們這1500億請問讓你海巡佔多少錢我們不曉得 佔多少錢然後你到底要花在哪裡"},{"start":10592.843,"end":10622.243,"text":"到目前為止可不可以來做一些說明各位委員報告我剛剛有說明這是一個跨時代的海巡轉型的一個非常重要的基礎多少錢是我們大約目前還沒有完全核定因為條例都已經送到立法院來了條例也還沒有過條例過了以後不是你送到立法院你要讓我們知道你要花在哪裡以我們目前我們需要的其實更多但是至少可以給我們300億所以海巡的部分"},{"start":10622.883,"end":10626.567,"text":"海巡的部分300億1500億裡面海巡300億是這樣嗎 確定嗎目前我們海巡可以爭取到的大約就是300億的規模這對我們來講是非常非常重要的好 300億要花在哪裡"},{"start":10639.699,"end":10665.275,"text":"因為我不要佔用大家時間 300億要花在那裏我第一次聽到1500億裏面 包括您關心的包括您所關心 您都曾經來聞希望知道我們的熱險象儀要部署在哪裏的時候那跟委員報告 熱險象儀有或沒有對於海巡是一個劃時代的轉型因為我們需要24小時都有監證能力那為什麼在今年度的預算裏面沒有放進來啊"},{"start":10666.656,"end":10680.71,"text":"為什麼今年度預算沒有放進來?我們在去年的時候 去年的時候發生的事情 去年的時候質詢但是為什麼今年的預算沒有編進來?我們增加五十三億就可以罵到現在了我們今年度的預算增加五十三億就可以罵到臭頭"},{"start":10688.217,"end":10708.628,"text":"三百億要花算的在爭取預算我們都講不出來時間那麼久了耶起碼三分鐘過去你講不出來除了三百億講不出來你到底要花在哪裡呢你講啊沒有講不出來我已經說了海空一體跟二十四小時的精銳海巡光是這幾個字什麼"},{"start":10710.729,"end":10715.012,"text":"就像國土安全認証 你不能用一個國土安全認証告訴我1500億 國土安全認証很重要 我都知道但是你要花力在條例裡面給我們我們絕對會讓委員相信這是我們絕對需要的因為我今天是做球給你讓你告訴我們海巡要爭取多少錢"},{"start":10735.765,"end":10759.92,"text":"要花在哪裡講半天你跟我講一些形容詞非常可惜啦真的很可惜沒有把握機會受到立法院這麼久到現在為止連這個精確具體的項目都講不出來我不曉得你們這個預算到底是怎麼編的啦我今天真的做愁給你可惜了好不好或者是你可以書面的提供給我們各位委員 謝謝"},{"start":10765.131,"end":10772.934,"text":"好謝謝好來何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳委員不在鄭振淺鄭振淺鄭振淺委員不在然後請徐欣穎委員嗯"},{"start":10789.739,"end":10801.312,"text":"謝謝主席 本席有請海委會管主委還有中選會理主委以及陸委會邱主委還有客委會的谷主委請示位主委"},{"start":10819.257,"end":10837.134,"text":"好 四位主委本席想請教四位對於我們中央政府的總預算我們中央應該說我們的預算它是人民的血汗錢不是執政黨的提款卡認同的請舉手"},{"start":10845.059,"end":10855.589,"text":"李主委不認同我們中央政府的預算那個是人民的血汗錢不是執政黨的提款卡你沒舉手不認同沒舉手沒關係那整個的"},{"start":10859.637,"end":10881.65,"text":"預算 國會的監督 主要最應該的應該是監督錢有沒有合法的編列以及是不是能夠真正把事情做對 做出績效而不是開空白支票 認同的請舉手"},{"start":10884.896,"end":10911.506,"text":"所以委員都很支持我們所以在委員會只刪了1500億我現在是請四位認同的請舉手我再講一遍就是我們的預算應該是要能夠把事情能夠做對而且呢做出績效我們各位身為行政官員你認同"},{"start":10913.106,"end":10925.531,"text":"人民的血汗錢這麼多的預算我們應該把事情做對做出績效而且合法的編列認同的請舉手我認同不認同的請舉手"},{"start":10927.402,"end":10934.952,"text":"我認為這個是一個簡單的道理請委員是不是可以容許我們我現在就在問認同的請舉手這個好像小學生一樣也浪費了委員的時間主席麻煩你暫停時間我沒有要他們答覆他們在答覆我請他們舉手他們都不舉手"},{"start":10946.768,"end":10958.418,"text":"因為舉手這個動作說實在的請你們原諒因為剛剛主委也說了我們四個人在這裡都舉手現在這個時代就是影像出去的話所以我們用口頭回答好不好認同的請點頭可以吧原來你們是很在意舉手那認同的請點頭我再問一個問題"},{"start":10973.277,"end":10982.967,"text":"您在座的四位主委以及您所率領的單位同仁你們都有認知到說我們的職責"},{"start":10986.004,"end":11004.871,"text":"就是為全民服務我們不是替某個政黨來出征不是替某個政黨服務我們領的是國家人民的納稅錢、薪水就是您主委以及您所率領的我們這些同仁大家有這份認知的請點頭"},{"start":11007.705,"end":11035.742,"text":"我們前幾天破貨的毒品當然是為全民我沒有請你回答認同的請舉手對不起 認同的請點頭好 謝謝所以我們希望我們的中央政府的官員我們是為全民服務很多事情把它做好我想我們所有的在野黨的立委"},{"start":11036.584,"end":11053.825,"text":"我們絕對不是如外面現在謠言惑眾所說的我們三預算凍結預算是要黨改革或是政府做對 絕對沒有我們就是希望能夠讓政府能夠做到民眾期望的"},{"start":11054.656,"end":11075.151,"text":"那只要是當用則用那當省則省不要腐爛編列預算好現在我請三位主委回座請谷主委留這個好謝謝好許委員好好谷主委是本席想請教您我們客委會"},{"start":11076.874,"end":11094.796,"text":"在行政院還沒有核定前就已經把新一期的國家客家發展計畫編入了114年度的預算請問這個有沒有違反預算法第39條第一項明定的預算之編制應依據法定計畫"},{"start":11096.899,"end":11108.714,"text":"應該這麼說我們國家客家發展計畫因為第一期到112年那113年空窗了所以我們在因為113年所以你們是不是應該要行政院核定嘛"},{"start":11110.063,"end":11125.856,"text":"到現在都還沒核定就本席了解現在已經在會各部會的意見當中到目前都還沒有核定你們就已經把整個沒有這樣的一個依據計劃內容你們就已經預算編進去了但我們針對中長城的計劃編列預算這個是合乎規定的"},{"start":11133.888,"end":11144.233,"text":"可是現在國家客家發展計畫沒有你到現在沒有提出來那今天的解凍案已經提出來了我所謂提出來對不起我講的是我們今天的解凍案今天解凍案當初是說我們要提出"},{"start":11158.018,"end":11185.745,"text":"解凍書面報告以及新一期的國家客家發展計畫那你這個計畫行政院沒有核定你就提出來那你當初提給行政院的時候行政院也還有意見你們現在應該在修改吧根本報告國家客家發展計畫並沒有在這所有的書面或專題報告專案報告裡頭當中所以每一個案子我們都提過來了"},{"start":11187.936,"end":11215.233,"text":"今天沒有這個案嗎應該沒有啊應該沒有吧那我們看到應該那個內容裡面那個是委員應該是有一位委員提到一直提到我們113年度沒有國家客家發展計畫那是114年到117年這樣那本席特別的在這裡等一下我要請那個另一位單位上來我在最後"},{"start":11217.555,"end":11230.21,"text":"針對那個谷主委我想即便是蔡英文總統執政的八年我們看到柯委會的預算還是總預算柯委會的預算還是有被刪減"},{"start":11231.391,"end":11252.67,"text":"即便我們李永德主委 客委會主委他的夫人就是我們的邱委員在民進黨蔡英文八年的完全執政下還是有刪減預算所以不要再拿說有客家人刪減客家預算來做文章 因為"},{"start":11254.962,"end":11276.383,"text":"這個立法委員監督不管刪減或凍結一定是有憑有據不合法的或是服邊的該刪的要刪但是凍結的部分來自於我們的審查的空間時間不夠不夠完備所以呢我們有這個凍結的機制也就是說我們行政單位提出凍結報告"},{"start":11278.064,"end":11304.53,"text":"解凍報告那讓我們委員們覺得這個是合乎這個規定的而且也看到了行政單位的這個成效我們是可以解凍的所以我想主委您應該也了解那在這個客會我想我時間有關係謝謝主委最後我們可不可以請那個主計總處今天有沒有來"},{"start":11307.352,"end":11309.053,"text":"好 請主計總署不好意思主委還是請你因為接下來也還是這個委員好"},{"start":11323.117,"end":11349.118,"text":"我想請教主計總署這個剛剛本席質詢的我們國家客家發展計劃這個預算的編列如果計劃沒有核定前就先編列預算請問主計總署有沒有認定違法因為我們114年的預算已經審完了但是在提出預算前他這個行政院沒有編沒有沒有核定"},{"start":11353.615,"end":11369.533,"text":"我們這邊編類的計畫是指中長城個案計畫那計畫經過行政院核定之後我們就會那邊預算對但是在預算提出來之前還沒核定嗎這邊講的委員這邊講的應該是客家的"},{"start":11374.953,"end":11382.198,"text":"一個整體大的方向的一個規劃案並不是涉及個案的計畫不是涉及個案所以我本席問的就是新一期的國家客家發展計畫沒有核定可是它依據它卻已經編出預算了"},{"start":11401.479,"end":11425.538,"text":"好 沒關係所以這一塊主計總署我現在主要問你如果計劃沒有核定前先編預算是不是有認定違法目前客委會的這些預算都有這些計劃都有經過行政院的核定中長城個案計劃的部分都有經過我們的如果是屬於工建或者是一些科技計劃都有經過審議程序納入預算"},{"start":11428.88,"end":11451.849,"text":"但是我們看到的是沒有所以這個部分我們等一下請主委講那個我跟委員說明其實國家客家發展計劃它是一個綱要型的計劃它不涉及這個預算的編列預算編列是在中長程計劃的個案型計劃那個是已經有通過通過我們才可以編預算所以你們有計劃內容依據就對了當然有"},{"start":11453.43,"end":11482.856,"text":"那沒關係等一下我們看你們那個回應的這個內容因為我們在你們的報告中有特別提到好那所以那個有要補充嗎主席總署有關於那個客委會的這一支計劃那是不是稍後請客委會補充行政院核定的函號那就是有確定說是經過行政院核定的所以你們這一塊也有把關是"},{"start":11483.786,"end":11496.628,"text":"好OK好那我們這個最後最後本席想特別就足記董事的請回那主委我想我們客家"},{"start":11497.694,"end":11517.304,"text":"的語言跟文化的傳承預算的經費當然很重要但是我們能夠做出績效讓我們客家的文化語言能夠真正的傳承才是最重要的現在很多人都覺得整個的傳承是崩壞的所以我們希望您再努力好不好"},{"start":11518.824,"end":11532.371,"text":"一定是這樣子那也要特別請委員特別是我們的委員在客家莊或者是客籍的委員來協助這個預算的支持我們一定支持而且我在這邊最後感謝主席我最後講"},{"start":11534.04,"end":11552.898,"text":"我們柯委會在網頁上在FB上面所寫的我要在這邊特別說我們在委員會的時候本席當召委主持一毛沒三您認同吧我也跟委員說不是吧你認同嗎你回答我問題然後接著我知道你要講的是院會二讀三讀所以我在這裡我要講的"},{"start":11554.459,"end":11579.31,"text":"這完全沒有討論過 那我們也求惡不及沒有辦法說明 那也要請這個時候客氣的不是欸 主席我沒有問 我問的你答完你可以讓我講嗎然後進入二讀跟三讀 進入二讀跟三讀的時候其實黨團提出來的時候 主委你沒看到這個我之前也有跟委員不是我可不可以講啊"},{"start":11581.84,"end":11609.136,"text":"黨團在二讀跟三讀的時候每個黨團都內部有在討論你沒看到的是我們課級的委員怎麼樣的在為課委會的預算護航所以我要講的就是說如果我們不是極力但您要做出績效而且這這麼多委員在進入到院會甚至二讀三讀黨團的時候有各個政黨的委員還有個別的委員"},{"start":11609.816,"end":11636.006,"text":"所以我要講的是我們在黨團協商的時候我們自己黨團內部我們幫客委會擋掉了非常多雖然到後面你們也許還有你的意見但是你要想一想你的績效你很多績效被我們質詢被我們講沒做好你應該想辦法做好你做好我相信其他委員支持我們客級的委員我們全力的支持所以我想"},{"start":11637.026,"end":11655.071,"text":"我們在黨團提出來的時候也很多單位他都有來溝通那我因為我個人沒有在黨團的時候提出來我不知道你們有沒有溝通我不知道你們有沒有溝通所以我在這裡我要在最後再強調在黨團提案的時候"},{"start":11655.811,"end":11681.291,"text":"我看到的我能幫我們客委會的我們都盡量我們擋掉了非常多所以我現在跟你講嘛你蔡英文執政的時候你蔡英文執政的八年你的委員你民進黨執政黨的委員七十幾席一樣刪除客委會預算我們可以給大家看"},{"start":11682.572,"end":11688.958,"text":"蔡英文執政的8年所以那個沒什麼好講的因為所有委員都監管所以你們應該要去跟行政單位多溝通"},{"start":11697.845,"end":11709.428,"text":"表達就是說我一個人但是在野黨有六十幾位所以你們要多去溝通我們已經幫客委會盡量的打但是你的表現你客委會展現出來的績效還有你對預算你有沒有浮邊爛邊被人家質疑針對特定單位你的這個經費還有重複編列"},{"start":11722.631,"end":11741.578,"text":"你的合理性必要性你沒有說服委員委員我們在你的營運收入你一直年年應該提升你卻沒有提升所以我想有很多可以再加強你做得好我們大家全力支持好謝謝主委也謝謝主席好謝謝好我們請鄭天才委員"},{"start":11764.363,"end":11793.952,"text":"好 主席 各位委員有請中選會主委好 請李主委要特別跟這個客家委員會的主委說明這個今天在場你坐著就好今天在場的在第八屆的立法委員之前就當立委的就是我們的這個海委會的主委他很清楚第八屆以前三的預算更多了"},{"start":11795.557,"end":11823.4,"text":"然後這一次之所以溝通就是沒有因為沒有溝通就是為了大罷免所以柯總召在這整個草野協商的時候就是不協商嘛所以這個部分這個好這個我們還是回歸到這個好這個主委好這個"},{"start":11826.394,"end":11849.309,"text":"不再舉投票啊這個我一再提了啊印尼印尼這個國家跟我們台灣的民主發展監禁各方面印尼他們都可以實施不再舉投票而且不是不是只有在"},{"start":11850.555,"end":11877.069,"text":"印尼還包含海外在台灣在台灣都實施不在籍投票這個按照這個外交部提供的印尼從103年開始在台灣就有總統跟國會大選的不在籍投票108年"},{"start":11878.604,"end":11896.762,"text":"也舉行國會跟總統大賞也是在台灣就有在台灣的印尼的人民他就可以在台灣投票一直到去年113年2月14號都一樣照常舉行了"},{"start":11904.431,"end":11927.349,"text":"印尼福源很大跟台灣比起來差很多很多何況他們在國內就實施了到了國外更是這樣實施原住民族要求的不多啦只是說這麼小的一個台灣這麼小的一個台灣"},{"start":11931.397,"end":11953.629,"text":"我們也希望能夠實施嚴重民主的不在己投票在過去的質詢中選會的答覆在這個整個作業上就選務工作上沒有什麼困難我們先不談海外了"},{"start":11955.219,"end":11980.614,"text":"原住民在海外的也很少啦就原住民族的因為我們很多的原鄉的鄉親戶籍在原鄉但是工作就業就寫在都會期要回到台東要回到蘭嶼要回到屏東要回到花蓮"},{"start":11982.639,"end":11997.191,"text":"都非常遙遠所以這樣的一個實施不在己 原住民主實施不在己投票到底這個中選會是不是可以繼續支持來 諸位"},{"start":11999.696,"end":12022.927,"text":"謝謝委員的指教那我也向委員要表達我內心對你的敬重因為我在這六年多以來大概委員對於原住民投票權的保障尤其是這個不在籍投票以及投票秘密各個環節委員都非常非常的關心"},{"start":12024.068,"end":12049.147,"text":"那我們其實對這個問題也是非常的重視就不在即投票的部分那台灣沒有辦法普遍的來做實施其實有它內在跟外在的諸多環境的這個影響包括在選務的部分當然我們應該要想辦法去克服但是有一些關節呢也真的是很難去突破"},{"start":12050.208,"end":12077.157,"text":"不過總而言之我在講任何理由都無助於委員對於我們這個問題對中選會的一些期待那這個問題現在已經提案了已經進入草野協商這個階段了我們希望草野協商的這個過程能夠順利如果草野能夠達成共識就原住民的投票"},{"start":12078.497,"end":12104.494,"text":"或者就原住民的特定的選舉採取特定的不再集投票的模式朝野之間有充分的共識經過立法的程序的話那中選會配合來辦理這絕對沒有問題主委謝謝你但是很重要的朝野要能夠共同的支持"},{"start":12105.765,"end":12129.584,"text":"就是說中選會就選務工作而言因為過去我質詢過你們都說選務工作不是問題就援助民主的部分而已而且你剛剛講特定的選舉這個部分希望中選會在朝夜協商的時候能夠給予支持以上 謝謝"},{"start":12137.02,"end":12139.963,"text":"好 謝謝鄭天才委員 再來我們請張祺凱委員請六委會邱隨正 邱主委好 請邱主委"},{"start":12172.962,"end":12195.934,"text":"張委員好主委,你是對的人?我身邊的人身邊的人,那裡叫行政院那個官網啊有漢人跟其他人嘛,對不對?你是哪裡人?如果照行政院這個官網的分類因為你身邊,你是哪邊的人?新竹市是漢人還是其他人?當然是,一般漢人你是漢人?"},{"start":12199.58,"end":12226.897,"text":"行政院把96.2的漢人都現在變成是其他人所以你說你是漢人那以後你就是其他人了是不是照這樣分類是不是其他人主委你現在陸委會主委這個很重要結果民進黨政府現在一直在推動這個去中化去安化你的工作會不會很難做委員我們並沒有委員所說的那樣的事情"},{"start":12228.542,"end":12243.188,"text":"看起來很多都停擺我看你很多業務都推動的還是有在持續的進行交流只不過我們在去統戰化去政治化讓交流回歸到對等尊嚴健康有序的環境來進行"},{"start":12244.028,"end":12263.037,"text":"都溝通啦然後多一些和平少一些對立要不然的話老實講再這樣下去陸委會不是只有預算凍結現在解凍陸委會搞不好應該都要拆掉沒有功能了沒有需要了我們同仁現在還在履行兩岸條例跟港澳條例的相關業務我們陸委會同仁戰戰兢兢的那麼業務上其實也相當的繁重"},{"start":12268.799,"end":12281.628,"text":"主委我看你今天的解凍報告提到說我們台灣現在有36萬6千個陸配家庭用大概4口人來算好了"},{"start":12283.131,"end":12311.166,"text":"大概有150萬陸配的這個家庭跟陸配有關係的 才會報國盤 對不對我看你的這個報告裡面講到說要協助陸配家庭深入去融入我國社會的生活等政策 對不對要多努力我們希望多一些協助 多一些照顧那最近啊 老實講不只沒有協助 我覺得最近啊去推民國94年之前也就是2004年"},{"start":12315.89,"end":12320.942,"text":"2004年3月1號之前要陸配回去找21年以前的大陸"},{"start":12322.742,"end":12352.119,"text":"他的除籍資料來講是有強人手難當然這段時間包括你也到我辦公室我們都有協調我大概有六次開了六次協調會你已經是我第四次執行這個問題了那我們現在看起來有些突破可是老實講照顧還是不夠的那我們先來講我們現在做了哪些事情可是有些地方我們進一步來解決好不好我先問你現在最新的一個解決方案就是很多陸配跟二代接到你們通知之後"},{"start":12354.645,"end":12382.334,"text":"很擔心會不會戶籍被取消或者甚至被驅逐出境變成人囚現在我們初步的一個突破是這樣子一方面我們先治標跟治本治標我們現在做的就是現在開始接受申請包括你可以本人到移民署也可以用郵件也可以用紙本然後接到之後是不是一個月內你們本身就要做好這個審查"},{"start":12384.6,"end":12402.082,"text":"跟委員報告有關於現在的這些專案在協處的那剛剛委員說因為年代久遠那如果他手邊沒有任何的證明文件我們移民署跟海基會都會提供讓他有所本"},{"start":12402.563,"end":12422.27,"text":"第二個 他可能在放棄大陸原籍可能還有許多的自愛難行我們要感謝委員包括您還有你們辦公室團隊都積極的在協助那我們也協助你們辦公室所轉來的個案都得到充分的協助那我們要跟委員講"},{"start":12423.65,"end":12445.535,"text":"這個案子並不是在找陸培家庭的麻煩而是我們在疫情期間做了第一波清理然後回溯清理發現還是有人沒有一直到剛剛委員所說2004年3月1號之前那些放棄大陸原籍的很多都沒有放棄我們是也可以把問題蓋下來但是我們選擇面對問題勇於承擔而且找出解決問題的方法"},{"start":12452.817,"end":12470.296,"text":"讓我們的陸配家庭真的有機會不要受貶質疑他在台灣的生活是合法的在這個前提下才能安居樂業我們是朝這個目的來做當然有一些資深陸配家裡或是他二代這個我們要提供許多的協助"},{"start":12471.837,"end":12489.211,"text":"讓他排除各種問題我們今天最重要是要解決問題啦政府存在的目的不是製造問題是解決問題所以我們共同努力嘛我們今天很清楚跟現在擔心的陸配跟二代我們今天很清楚跟他講他現在本來他們擔心是什麼你4月2號寄通知你要三個月內要他們完成初級嘛對不對"},{"start":12490.232,"end":12499.455,"text":"時間快到了喔對 委員你要跟我們聯繫就不用擔心有被除籍的問題所以現在跟陸委會跟移民署跟海基會聯繫上就沒有問題我們都會抓人跟他輔導來解決他的問題所以不會有六月底或者七月初被除籍這個問題我們都會全力協助所以你們只要去申請你們就會給他一個通知嘛 對不對然後會有三個可能 來來看一看有三種可能 來"},{"start":12519.961,"end":12548.45,"text":"第一個你們同意讓他用用切結的方式來取代對不對這是第一種這是最理想的就是說你真正沒辦法回大陸去或者你資料已經找不到了你就同意他用切結這是最好的一個方式對不對第二種雖然沒辦法用用拒絕可是你會同意他閃連對不對另外最壞最後一種狀況你不同意終究不同意的話你還是至少會給他三個月內三個月的閃連時間是不是這樣"},{"start":12550.646,"end":12575.483,"text":"就是最右邊這一欄嘛最後面這一欄啊真的是就是自愛男性有特別的狀況我們也會專案來替他協助所以他找到你們或者到我們辦公室我們把案子轉過去就可以爭取到時間有這三個解決的方案那當然治本來是要修法啦這是治標所以民眾黨會提出修法我們是希望在93年"},{"start":12576.784,"end":12580.048,"text":"大陸現在有四個省份啦 之前是浙江嘛對不對現在山東 山西 安徽跟浙江他們都不發啦 這怎麼解決"},{"start":12593.186,"end":12608.207,"text":"跟委員報告您剛講這些拒絕提供我們陸配朋友回去放棄他的原籍證明拒絕給他除籍文件這個事都極少數那這些都是個案"},{"start":12609.13,"end":12628.68,"text":"那個案的部分我們就來協助溝通聯繫五個省份大概不會少數啦不過反正案子真的是個案我們截至目前為止都蠻順利的就用專案去幫忙啦好不好抱歉抱歉因為時間拖太久了不好意思我用兩分鐘主席兩分鐘你先請我好不好我請那個中選會主委不好意思喔謝謝因為這問題蠻嚴重我請問一下委員好欸 主委你好"},{"start":12638.376,"end":12666.187,"text":"那個這次2024年總統大選的時候有出現一個屏東縣中正國小146投開票手我們看一下這個畫面這個你應該都有看過那個錄影帶嘛對不對他們就是在懷疑或者是在質疑說這個紙箱啊說他希望你怎麼折你後來一定有個折後面折起來的地方嘛對不對又有加成嘛對不對那他這個是拍到說折成了有一些那個選票掉出來嘛"},{"start":12668.014,"end":12696.027,"text":"那我們來解決這個問題好不好我們來解決這個問題現在有人都提出來說你紙箱一定有摺痕那你能不能做一個底面是透明壓克力板的這樣是不是能夠解決問題這個選務的相關的設備器具 應用物品有這樣子的問題而引起社會的議論或者甚至於所謂的恐慌"},{"start":12696.607,"end":12716.44,"text":"我覺得很不值得就對了所以我積極在進行研究怎麼樣能夠去除這樣子的一個疑慮當然委員所建議的這個我們也會列入考慮我們會積極的去研究如何能夠讓老百姓這個投票人他們完全有信心"},{"start":12718.401,"end":12735.597,"text":"很有可能會這樣做對不對可能的方式可能的方式我們都不排除中選會公正性專業性一定要被肯定這個是你的重責大任對不對我再給你看一下你看這個開票2024年開票的時候雲林東名村你看這個開票綠色的是賴清德的"},{"start":12741.021,"end":12767.641,"text":"跟這個政黨票右邊這藍色是國民黨的侯友宜左邊這是柯文哲的總統票跟政黨票你們發現落差太大了雲林的東明村新北市的這個井南里賴清德的政黨票跟民進黨的政黨票都很近對不對國民黨侯友宜跟國民黨的政黨票很近可是你看那個那邊柯文哲154票政黨票才開了10票"},{"start":12768.533,"end":12788.586,"text":"然後景覽里277票 政黨票才開30 我要繼續給你看喔花蓮啊 仁里村 也是這種狀況柯匯澤開202票 政黨票竟然只有一票可是你看賴清德跟侯友宜的 跟政黨票都是一致的右邊這個桃園市的果林里也是這種狀況"},{"start":12795.965,"end":12818.835,"text":"我們發現如果有異常狀況的話都會要求主任管理員他再要double check一定要做再重新一次的來做確認而且這個確認有三道手續有三道關卡的確認所以作為醫療長這種狀況就是應該在很快的時間內要再清查一次嘛對不對那當然那今天我做個簡單的結論啦你剛剛講的我剛剛講"},{"start":12822.236,"end":12835.593,"text":"公正性 被信任非常重要這應該是你的重責大任嘛所以剛剛講那個紙箱一定要趕快好好去討論好不好我剛剛講那個底部用壓克力板透明的這是非常多人我們想辦法來克制今天往這個方向來走好 謝謝主委謝謝 拜拜"},{"start":12839.841,"end":12854.261,"text":"好 謝謝登記發言委員出不在場者外區均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員書巧慧所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一周"},{"start":12855.642,"end":12872.45,"text":"內已書面答覆並複製本會本次會議質詢時間尋例並未減少且能是個別委員的質詢需要容許委員的答詢時間著於原廠 原此本次會議每位委員發言時間列入會議記錄我們現在休息用餐下午一點繼續開會"},{"start":16159.82,"end":16171.585,"text":"我們現在繼續開會我們現在進行討論事項一處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關海洋委員會預算解凍專題報告專案報告計八案"},{"start":16186.254,"end":16189.395,"text":"好 請問各位委員是否均同意動之同意"},{"start":16199.619,"end":16221.875,"text":"好 我再說一次 高經緯我們現在進行討論四項處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關海洋委員會預算凍結專題報告 專案報告計八案請問各位委員是否同意動之同意好那第六案"},{"start":16223.481,"end":16239.707,"text":"我先講一下不是啦那個高經委員先對不起我要公平好謝謝昭偉昭偉我這邊是第六案大家可能看一下海委會的"},{"start":16241.067,"end":16266.584,"text":"就是煤燻的部分那我在這個海洋業務費我是凍結它一千萬那我的理由是有兩個第一個就是說我們海洋業務的這個煤燻費它高達百分之二十兩百三十一點六九大概四倍以上以前大概是編了三百一十萬在今年編了一千六百零九萬"},{"start":16267.935,"end":16284.941,"text":"那這個實在是編的超過太多了那麼我的認為是說有兩個部分請他們說明一下就是說為什麼會增加四倍以上然後接著下來就是說我認為現階段的海委會各項執法還有它有很多的配套法規"},{"start":16286.081,"end":16314.619,"text":"已經立法通過可是呢還沒有上路我認為呢在這樣的狀況之下一下子編這麼多的沒宣費尤其是四倍以上我覺得很不合理是不是請說明一下謝謝好等一下齁我先處理一下齁那個高俊偉還有其他各位我們總共有八案齁那其他個齁除了高俊偉的第六案齁我們要討論之外那其他個案有沒有意見"},{"start":16316.781,"end":16340.873,"text":"好 李博友 我就是要講我們從審查的時候其實民進黨團就沒有意見希望可以確實的來執行那如果今天解凍案沒有其他的意見的話我們民進黨團這邊我個人除了剛剛高進委員那個第六案由這個管主委來說明以外對於其他的案件我希望可以儘速解凍 謝謝"},{"start":16342.454,"end":16362.927,"text":"所以我的意思就是說除了第六案之外如果都沒有意見的話我們其他個案是不是均同意動之提報院會對 主席這樣就對了那我們現在來討論第六案好不好那我們是不是請管主委說明一下"},{"start":16370.038,"end":16390.612,"text":"報告張偉 各位委員就是說海委會的媒宣為什麼會大幅成長那是因為過去海委會的媒宣幾乎幾乎是沒有不算是有效的編列舉例來講以海巡署來講海巡他包括說他又要招募人才"},{"start":16391.332,"end":16416.126,"text":"然後有這麼多他們必須要宣導於海上的治安以及國安相關的業務但是海巡長期以來他們煤宣的費用幾乎趨近於零所以以海巡來講它就會大幅的增加那以海委會而言因為我們的國海院曾經做過民意調查就是全國人民的海洋意識"},{"start":16417.347,"end":16441.467,"text":"具有海洋意識的顯性度差不多就是20%連說我們的海洋到底替我們製造了多少百分比的氧氣幾乎都很少人知道海洋是我們人類氧氣的50%到70%的來源連這種事情都不知道那我們有很多"},{"start":16442.888,"end":16466.419,"text":"相關的罰則大家也都不曉得所以會有那種看到海龜想要去摸海龜可是他卻不知道說我一摸可能就要被罰30萬所以過去都非常的低水平線在編列這個梅宣的預算所以才會在今年梅宣的預算會有大幅的成長這是一個背景"},{"start":16467.499,"end":16490.632,"text":"另外就是說可是這個煤燻來到了立法院以後我們就是通山了60%所以基本上煤燻的費用也是受立法院通山法定通山的影響所以我們現在也是在法定通山之後的這個水位上面來運作這是第二點"},{"start":16491.552,"end":16505.917,"text":"第三點就是說,即使是過去的低水位或者是今年到目前為止的第一季海委會的煤燻預算非常非常普遍的分散在"},{"start":16507.117,"end":16527.336,"text":"大量的媒體平台上面它完全沒有集中於任何一家的現象完全沒有所以以上三點最主要的重點跟委員報告包含就是說為什麼預算會大幅的增加以及包含說現有的預算受通山的影響水位已經下降"},{"start":16527.876,"end":16540.07,"text":"另外就是說 海委會的媒宣完全都是一個多元的均衡性的在運用那他沒有做任何的這個偏差 謝謝"},{"start":16543.254,"end":16544.716,"text":"海巡署及所署有5個海洋保育署有6個"},{"start":16562.495,"end":16582.261,"text":"国家海洋研究院有一个那你这样子我们从你的本会有十个这个编列的媒宣费来看我看到你们给我的一些说明都是海域安全啊还有海洋知识啊文化啊"},{"start":16583.803,"end":16605.1,"text":"海洋的認識 保護和永續利用海洋的認識你這十個裡面你大概就已經都是海洋的認識 保護和永續利用你可不可以更明確的告訴我說你現在要推動的這個煤圈總共有22個煤圈那每一個你是要花多少錢 可以嗎"},{"start":16606.789,"end":16630.816,"text":"妳再提供這樣的資料給我好不好各位委員報告我們每一宣的支出都會上網而且是每一季上網每三個月就會全部每一個戲目全部上網都會報立法院每一個戲目每三個月就報立法院所以它完全是公開的"},{"start":16631.756,"end":16653.221,"text":"對 可是問題是 對不起 抱歉問題是你上面所講的每一個項目你們都是跟海洋知識 文化都一樣你們為什麼要分這樣子那麼多 到底是什麼原因因為我們總共第一個有本會沒有 你本會十個裡面就都是海洋知識跟文化你再注意看一下"},{"start":16653.541,"end":16668.229,"text":"我們本會的各單位就完全都涵蓋這些項目譬如說我們有科文它就包含海洋科技海洋文化跟海洋教育那我們有海安它就包含海洋的航安治安"},{"start":16668.749,"end":16682.88,"text":"能夠整合然後在所謂的你的四大媒體裡面來推廣嗎?一定要這麼樣的細項,然後這麼多個嗎?四大媒體是四大平台,四大媒體包含的就是說第一個平面媒體,第二個電視媒體,對廣播跟網路但是你一千六百零九萬,這個四大媒體你是怎麼分配?"},{"start":16694.629,"end":16710.933,"text":"沒有固定要分配給誰我們就是依照這一次所通過的決議他有要求我們譬如說你每一次的單一的標案不能超過多少百分比然後每一個平台的總數不能超過多少百分比我們就依照這樣子來進行"},{"start":16711.834,"end":16729.506,"text":"但是你總不能夠因為這樣子你本會有十個然後其他有六個然後你就這樣子平均分配你應該每一宣是要按照有需要的才去做按照業務的需要但是你增加了四倍我覺得這個四倍也太多了以前大概310萬你現在是1609萬"},{"start":16732.848,"end":16738.034,"text":"各位報告其實我們在所有的內閣裡面我們的排名是在後面就是說跟過去比我們成長的比例很高但是以各部會來講我們的業務真的是非常的龐雜但是跟各部會比起來我們的排序還是在很下面"},{"start":16752.492,"end":16773.028,"text":"主委這樣我就不能夠接受了你的認為就是說別的部會裡面要增滿多的沒宣所以你認為這個海外委員會這個不夠所以你要增加你的話的意思是這樣子而不是針對你們的業務真正的需要然後來去編這個沒宣費如果你們的想像是這樣的話那就更不能夠讓我們接受"},{"start":16774.529,"end":16794.771,"text":"我們確實是需要那剛剛講的不是因果而是說一個序列上面的一個參考就是說以這樣的一個媒宣的經費規模在整個內閣各部會的序列裡面它沒有服邊的現象然後相較之下符合我們業務的需要跟委員報告"},{"start":16795.692,"end":16816.901,"text":"明宣的費用在海委會來講一千多萬一年海洋的事務這麼的龐雜有非常非常多的宣導其實我們甚至於都還做得不夠所以這個部分還懇請委員能夠給我們支持張委員這樣好不好我們是不是先保留一下因為我也不要讓大家太多的時間因為我還是認為就是說剛剛主委所說的這個我是"},{"start":16821.863,"end":16840.705,"text":"比較沒有辦法接受他認為是說其他的部分的沒宣費長期來還有會就是少了他們然後他們必須要增加這樣子的這個說法我就沒有辦法接受因為現在我們是立法委員我們是要遵檢每一個人民的納稅錢"},{"start":16842.287,"end":16860.636,"text":"然後這也是我們的責任雖然一千多萬在所有的預算裡面是不夠不夠太多但是我覺得我們還是得要讓人民清楚知道好嗎謝謝我同意高軍委員的說法我是不是這樣高軍委員各位委員我本來是想說協商一下"},{"start":16862.398,"end":16864.239,"text":"這個部分真的很拜託我也能夠支持海洋真的需要我們替它發聲"},{"start":16877.77,"end":16894.916,"text":"那我可以我同意主席的才是就是說等一下稍微協商一下可能這可以更促進這個我們的了解不過我想在進入協商之前我自己在新北這邊確實我們有非常多的海洋"},{"start":16895.896,"end":16915.369,"text":"那所以也有非常多的需要協助的不管是海事工程或者是海巡署業務或者是海洋的教育我光是去一個共寮這三方面都可以遇到所以我能夠明白剛剛管主委在說的就是包括說對海洋生態的保育"},{"start":16916.77,"end":16928.74,"text":"還有跟海洋如何去進行這個互動那甚至是我們海巡署弟兄的招募那我覺得其實在在的在各個方面可以看得出來說我們其實如果越認識海洋"},{"start":16932.663,"end":16956.593,"text":"願意去接近海洋我們需要的知識其實會更多所以也需要把這些知識、知識傳遞給一般的民眾那這當然是需要說實在的還是需要費用去支持所以我其實覺得一千多萬兩千多萬這其實對整個海委會跟國家跟人民之間的關係這個預算其實是不嫌"},{"start":16957.133,"end":16972.759,"text":"不多啦,真的是不多,所以我是建議可以支持一下,我希望這段發言可以留記錄一下,謝謝等一下好不好,我們先協商一下,然後要發言我們再發言好不好對啦,我就是要說這個啦,協商給我們這麼快啦,需要的沒需要的拜託一下,賣水農運賣水的錢,這個大家都知道,我相信大家一統都知道啦"},{"start":16983.7,"end":16986.122,"text":"民進黨這件事情要更認真、更小心"},{"start":16994.838,"end":17021.405,"text":"我還是必須要講的就是說其實有很多對海洋水池的業務本身就是要推動的他跟梅宣是兩個我也認同剛剛就是對梅宣我也認同大家對海洋水池的業務本身就是在推動這些他跟梅宣是兩個梅宣是梅宣啊梅宣"},{"start":17024.014,"end":17036.244,"text":"你們的業務包括活動嘛其實在活動當中其實就可以舉辦啊那活動就是包括活動沒有啦 活動要民眾參與你的媒體只有四大四大你沒來看要民眾參與還是需要"},{"start":17052.245,"end":17057.069,"text":"那其實也對民主社會的知識運用帶來的考慮,來源的背景其實是一個防衛的一個現象"},{"start":17065.034,"end":17068.456,"text":"我們會去製作專題,在雜誌也好,在電視也好,在很多的地方我們會製作專題"},{"start":17089.566,"end":17091.508,"text":"昨天獨木舟出來了先聽我講 先聽我講"},{"start":17107.108,"end":17124.845,"text":"既然是這樣子我是同意那主委你們也同意你們弄一個報告有關阿美族跟達物體海鳥文化的這些東西因為我在你們給我的資料上面我都沒有看到可以嗎好不好我們就說這要做附帶決議還是什麼還是他們就是答應我們"},{"start":17129.387,"end":17144.213,"text":"像嘉義來講的話他們完全沒有案子提進來那就表示說整個嘉義市這樣一個嘉義市的行政區因為他沒有靠海所以人民跟民間團體都不知道他們可以去做愛海的事情"},{"start":17144.793,"end":17171.749,"text":"所以我就特別要求要去國島所以我就有要求處長可以作證我就要求他要去國島我同意讓他們過但是至少你要讓我可以清楚知道對於阿美族的海洋文化還有達烏族的這些"},{"start":17172.609,"end":17175.793,"text":"你們怎麼樣來做媒宣我們會加以沒有害"},{"start":17186.208,"end":17205.253,"text":"要發言的委員,因為他剛剛有舉手,然後再換高進,那高進委員就提出這個訴求,然後我就採視這樣比較快這樣應該會做不完,是不是到最後時間應該是各組取看各地委會指的相關,不然大家都要罵我們大概會分這樣"},{"start":17208.963,"end":17232.136,"text":"是 就是傳統知識對在原住民的傳統用海的知識上面我們到底可以發掘出什麼樣的文化元素然後用來作為推廣海洋保育的重要資產這個部分我們來做一個報告這樣好不好好可以 好好 謝謝謝謝委員等一下 誰碰我老媽有被碰嗎時間有多久了很久了"},{"start":17249.315,"end":17249.975,"text":"好 那我們繼續開會剛剛黃婕委員有舉手她已經講了啊"},{"start":17261.775,"end":17268.68,"text":"主席 我們已經有跟主委說 跟主委也答應因為我剛才就是說 家理事不禁害但是家理事的必須要了解的總分之下也要去協助家理事雖然有一些"},{"start":17281.708,"end":17287.59,"text":"價位不一定當地會提出但是當地的百姓也希望更加了解要怎麼去補貨要怎麼去做所以在這個區塊主委也答應說會到協助給自己的百姓更加了解這個海洋生態的問題以上好 那再來請黃婕蕙議員"},{"start":17310.097,"end":17335.567,"text":"好那我也要表達一下我的支持因為這個海洋相關的這個沒宣費是非常非常重要就例如在我的選區其實就是靠海也包括海友會本身就在我的選區那其實周邊也辦了非常多相關海洋保育的宣傳活動那甚至是海洋國家日也都是在我的選區舉辦那所以我認為這個相關的沒宣費是重中之重因為唯有"},{"start":17336.467,"end":17353.173,"text":"這樣子的經費能夠辦相關的活動然後讓更多人知道還有包括海巡的招募的經費都在這個裡面所以這個也都是保護海洋以及建構海防安全的一部分所以我希望可以儘速的解凍然後讓這筆經費可以值用 謝謝好 謝謝那我們請高金委員"},{"start":17360.046,"end":17360.406,"text":"討論事項第二案"},{"start":17377.406,"end":17378.127,"text":"主委跟我們來討論"},{"start":17407.566,"end":17436.329,"text":"有特別針對這一部分的媒宣出去那我覺得就很可惜你的活動跟媒宣沒有一起合併在用的時候大家其實這個活動做起來是這效果也沒有那麼好那麼為了要完整正確的宣傳原住民用海的知識和文化我們是不是請海委會跟原民會還有教育部一起合作然後用知識體系來橫向合作宣傳的方案這樣是不是可以"},{"start":17437.367,"end":17439.689,"text":"我只是要表明說因為我自己有觀察到像海委會有出了很多海洋知識相關的兒童繪本那我覺得其實這是一個不錯的方向"},{"start":17460.743,"end":17486.705,"text":"那甚至是也有把原住民的相關的剛剛跟高經緯有共同討論的這些我們特別族群比如說阿美、達烏我們跟海之間的關係的不但是有繪本的部分而且現在在獨木舟計畫在園民會這邊有這個獨木舟製作計畫我們也在討論說是不是可以海委會的力量也加下去像昨天就有一艘獨木舟是昨天剛剛出發嘛這是其實是很重大的盛大的一件事情"},{"start":17487.145,"end":17498.574,"text":"那我是覺得這幾件做得好的我們就方向繼續可以繼續加強那等一下我贊同剛剛高經緯說的這個部分那是看海委會這邊可以怎麼報告告訴我們這筆費用怎麼運用好 請管主委"},{"start":17502.15,"end":17528.733,"text":"好 謝謝各位委員的指教那有關嘉義市的部分跟委員報告我也是好幾次都希望我們海資處的吳處長要下來跟市政府趕快溝通然後來做輔導看怎麼樣能夠在海洋的部分也能夠來提案然後讓我們有機會在嘉義市也來促進推動海洋意識的發展跟海洋文化的發展"},{"start":17529.634,"end":17546.992,"text":"那另外謝謝黃監委員一直都很關心那相關的有關於高雄周邊海域相關的活動我們也會好好的把它做有意義的有價值的宣導跟論述這一方面我們會來努力"},{"start":17547.492,"end":17565.51,"text":"那高金委員所關心還有蘇曉慧委員所關心原住民的用海的傳統智慧其實我是非常的重視所以我們這一次呢才會邀請國外很多的專家學者共同來簽訂我們的一個共同的聲明"},{"start":17566.351,"end":17582.733,"text":"最主要就是要重揚說原住民的傳統的海洋的知識它對於海洋的永續來講是很重要的資產那以我們無論是達吾或者是阿美族我們其實都有"},{"start":17583.574,"end":17603.014,"text":"拼板舟竹筏這一些補助的計畫來扶植傳統的技藝傳統的技術在發展那為什麼大家都沒看到就是因為我們梅軒的工作還沒有跟上我們梅軒的工作如果能夠跟上的話這些美好的價值就都可以來彰顯"},{"start":17604.315,"end":17631.068,"text":"那甚至於是歌謠無論是傳統的歌謠裡面也有很多海洋的意義意識跟價值在裡面那甚至於就是那種航海的智慧都在歌謠裡面那這些我們都會逐步的來做那尤其是衛原剛剛講的那個兒童的繪本我們過去都有陸續在出那這個部分我們今年也希望能夠加強謝謝"},{"start":17635.137,"end":17662.765,"text":"好 各位委員 尤其是高軍委員 他這樣可以啦我們同意 但是呢 是不是也請他們提出一個方案來好 不然你們同意的話 我來宣告一下 好不好好 那請我們海委會 就你剛剛所說的那個用陳書面資料 然後給我們內政委員會所有的委員尤其是高軍委員 好不好我們這個就列入正式的會議紀錄 好不好"},{"start":17664.625,"end":17668.366,"text":"我們討論事項一 處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關海洋委員會預算凍結專題報告專案報告計八案請問各位委員是否均同意動之"},{"start":17690.826,"end":17694.467,"text":"海委會預算處理完畢 請海洋委員會相關人員可以先行離席"},{"start":17709.861,"end":17720.465,"text":"那我們現在進行討論事項二處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結專案報告記憶案請問各位委員是否同意動之都同意齁 我再問一次齁請問各位委員是否同意動之"},{"start":17741.052,"end":17761.203,"text":"同意好那我們同意動之提報院會好那我們先那請請不到當場委員會人員可以先行離席那我們現在進行討論事項三處理審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央選舉委員會預算凍結專案報告案計事案"},{"start":17767.971,"end":17776.178,"text":"請問各位委員是否均同意動之中選會喔 麻煩大家看一下我等大家"},{"start":17777.557,"end":17794.974,"text":"中選會討論事項第三案 高津委員中選會的第二案裡面這個部分我今天早上有質詢過那麼對於中央選舉委員會稅出預算在第二幕選舉業務編列預算是3014萬1000元"},{"start":17799.818,"end":17820.331,"text":"以及選舉策進經費的683萬2千元那這個部分呢我有凍結那所以呢剛剛質詢的部分有兩個部分第一個區塊呢就是希望在不在籍投票的這塊部分不在籍投票這塊部分呢事實上我跟鄭天才委員已經提案了已經在這個"},{"start":17822.833,"end":17850.196,"text":"這個政黨協商了那主委今天也說只要是在立法院三不通過的他們就會來處理那這我沒有意見但是對於原住民秘密投票這一塊我希望呢主委能夠更加的精進然後請他提出一個該怎麼解決原住民的秘密投票的這塊部分尤其就是說我們的族人他每次要去投票的時候"},{"start":17850.916,"end":17872.737,"text":"那種感覺都非常的不好我們接到非常多的投訴就是人已經到了現場之後呢要問他原住民的選票在哪裡才從抽屜裡面拿出來我覺得原住民族不是話外之明那麼每一張選票都是等同的那我們應該也要被尊重是不是請我們選委會他們是專業的"},{"start":17876,"end":17904.739,"text":"請告訴我們尤其在這次我凍結這筆預算的時候我有非常提出具體的是希望他們能夠來具體解決這個問題可是他的書面報告裡面似乎還沒有告訴我要怎麼解決包括在剛剛的質詢裡面他也沒告訴我要怎麼解決其實我覺得這是技術上的問題是可以解決的所以是不是請主委能夠提出一個解決的方案來那對於這個解凍預算我就沒有意見以上 謝謝"},{"start":17906.5,"end":17927.991,"text":"我先請問除了高津書門委員的他的這個第二案其他個案各位有沒有意見沒有沒有好那我們現在就針對邁委員不是邁委員你是有其他案嗎你有其他案"},{"start":17932.725,"end":17940.889,"text":"不不不我現在要處理中選會除了高軍委員的第二案之外其他個案有沒有有意見的來麥委員第31案這邊我們是等一下等一下31案30等一下等一下"},{"start":17964.491,"end":17966.976,"text":"中選會嘛 第二案"},{"start":17977.36,"end":18001.78,"text":"我講的是這個我們總共只有四個案喔 麥委員第一 1995頁報報這邊是有我看這邊報告就是說那個情形就是我看不懂耶 因為我看到說這個第一進來就是說我們這邊要有"},{"start":18002.981,"end":18028.233,"text":"解凍的70%的業務費就是但是我看到你後面就寫一個一個業務執行刑事案是不是 第一案這個對啊應該是第一案啦 這是中央選舉委員會函這一本這本三"},{"start":18036.576,"end":18060.431,"text":"對 但是我怎麼翻過來第一案嗎 算第一案嗎我們是不是因為要解凍嘛 對不對解凍是不是要報告對啊 但是翻過來報告就是執行的情形 報告什麼"},{"start":18063.496,"end":18086.749,"text":"對啊 看到這邊寫的就是就一頁這樣而已因為看這一本我們今天發的嗎他沒有夾在這個地案的後面他在那所以今天送 現在送過在早上早上早上在這邊的來 拜託你找一找資料"},{"start":18091.759,"end":18104.364,"text":"我想說怎麼看到這邊翻過來就是只有一頁報告只有一頁就這樣報告裡面這本裡面就是"},{"start":18106.625,"end":18135.554,"text":"所以我想說怎麼看到的是只有這個還有第一個就是早上我看到的就是有問的就是說我們看不是不是不是麥委員麥委員你等一下好不好不是不讓你說話你等一下我剛剛在處理的就是說總共有四案那現在麥委員你對第一案有看法嗎高級委員對第二案有看法嗎那其他三四案有沒有其他委員有"},{"start":18136.454,"end":18161.414,"text":"有不同的看法沒有沒有喔我再問一次沒有好那我們現在就處理第一案跟第二案這樣子才好處理不然會亂掉好不好好那我們現在那個蔓圓你的第一案我們是不是先請這個李主委說明一下"},{"start":18167.596,"end":18183.2,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位委員我首先就第一案的部分跟麥委員以及各位委員來做個報告那第一案大院所做的這個決議它是鄧結我們的七成這個70%"},{"start":18186.101,"end":18207.842,"text":"那解凍的條件只有一個就是說我們如果執行到百分之三十的話就可以申請解凍了只有這麼一個條件並沒有其他的報告的條件這一點請麥委員你能夠了解這是第一案的部分"},{"start":18208.422,"end":18232.381,"text":"那第二案的部分剛剛高經委員非常感謝對於原住民權益尤其是投票權益保障的這個關心我現在可以很清楚的講就是有關於讓我們的原住民朋友他們在投票的時候有被尊重的感覺等一下等一下主委主委等一下好不好我們先處理第一案"},{"start":18234.712,"end":18258.119,"text":"我們已經將近百分之四十了啦已經符合這個條件了 請委員支持第一案不是我們委員會做出的刪減案是在運營會大家統三的那他的條件就是租了三層之後就可以提解凍他剛講的意思是這樣那不知道麥委員有沒有其他看法"},{"start":18258.963,"end":18272.98,"text":"我知道我知道因為不管誰提案現在不是因為我們提案我們才問因為我們審查我們就要看說我們收到這些資料是禮拜五才會決定我們今天審這個預算案對不對"},{"start":18275.343,"end":18294.428,"text":"所以我們要看得很吃力今天這個才所以今天我進來我沒有拿這份資料所以我就不知道說有這份所以我就有疑惑所以說他有這樣子的這份說明也是今天才收到所以說剛才他有說他有說明所以說這個部分的話是沒有問題因為我們先要了解才會要了解互相溝通還達到共識"},{"start":18304.992,"end":18330.114,"text":"因為我要這樣我才能夠處理不然沒有辦法處理所以第一案沒有意見了好那我們現在那個李主委關於高金委員的第二案你說明一下我想第一個報告就是說我們立即可以做的事情就是有關於這個投票的時候原住民選票他的擺放"},{"start":18330.814,"end":18349.48,"text":"以及擺放以及發放的這個程序我們會把它列入工作人員的手冊裡面明文的規定這是第一個那第二個如果再發生被投訴說你沒有按照這個程序來發放原住民的選票"},{"start":18350.4,"end":18372.938,"text":"經我們調查屬實的話 那我們會列入考核是我們專職的人員的話 我們自己考核是地方政府機關借調兼職的 我們會把這種情形來給他服務的機關這是第一個 我們具體的承諾在最近一次的全國性的選舉的時候 我們就會來辦理"},{"start":18375.64,"end":18400.969,"text":"那第二個當然委員很關心這個秘密投票的問題其實這個秘密投票跟委員今天關心的包括不再急投票包括這個投票率過低都是相關聯的一個問題相關聯的一個問題那在單純就投票率比較低的部分除了不再急投票去解決這是制度上的解決之外"},{"start":18402.43,"end":18427.092,"text":"這幾年以來其實我們在這方面的這個宣導宣傳是做了非常的多在地方尤其我是要求我們地方的選委會都要利用地方的各項活動包括政府的活動包括民間的活動去做我們選務的宣導那包括對原住民的這個宣導在裡面"},{"start":18427.913,"end":18449.128,"text":"我們的這個宣導的相關選舉的這些文書裡面我們甚至於把它翻譯成16個原住民的語言這個原民會他們都給我們頒獎鼓勵我也是被頒獎過所以我們也努力"},{"start":18450.149,"end":18472.116,"text":"還不夠而且它不是唯一的一個方法這部分我們繼續做另外比較直接的就是不再急投票那不再急投票就如同委員所講的現在已經進入朝野協商那我們跟法律的主管機關內政部之間也會就這些問題我們充分的溝通意見我們期待朝野對這個問題能夠有所共識"},{"start":18475.157,"end":18482.425,"text":"那以上是我對高經委員指教的一個說明也請高經委員對本會的這個預算能夠予以支持"},{"start":18484.972,"end":18506.645,"text":"好 對不起主委 我再請問您一下因為你們對於整個投票的流程動線都非常的清楚嘛我可以請問您 您剛剛說只是要告訴他們說放在手冊裡面就必須要尊重原住民的能不能在每一個投票開鎖你專門在另外一條動線讓原住民去排隊 有沒有這個可能"},{"start":18508.079,"end":18524.907,"text":"而不是要在一般 因為在一般你說投票完了以後投訴因為投訴我們在裡面根本也不能夠帶手機嘛 對不對然後你根本也沒有辦法拿出證據他沒有真正去落實你手冊上相關的規定"},{"start":18526.448,"end":18555.074,"text":"所以呢我記得我在上次也跟那個學友會的同事說有沒有可能在因為我們投票都是在學校嘛絕大部分人都在學校或者是這個投票的地方你讓原住民的投票的人你在另外開一個投票的場地就在同樣一個場地裡面開另外一個空間讓我們的族人去那邊投票不是很清楚嗎"},{"start":18557.129,"end":18573.79,"text":"這個可能會牽涉到的包括場地空間的問題包括工作人員的問題所以今天我不敢跟委員做很明確的一個回答但是這個問題我們回去研究那麼研究的這個結果我們會書面來跟委員做報告"},{"start":18574.292,"end":18602.028,"text":"好 你能夠研究的話那麼我們就什麼時候解凍好不好拜託可以嗎 周偉不是我是覺得這樣子啊因為對不起對不起 主委我認為這件事情事關重大長期以來我的族人一直不被在投票的行為上不被尊重這也是他們不想要去投票的原因之一所以我們的投票率低它是有非常多的因素加整起來"},{"start":18603.008,"end":18627.191,"text":"這是其中一個我們在所謂的不再舉投票那是最相關最大的因為原住民的族人你們也同意嘛就是交通啊往返各方面不方便等等會造成他們不願意去投票但是我剛剛講這個不備受尊重的這一塊也的確是因為抱歉我自己的弟弟就在這一次的投票就告訴他我是原住民"},{"start":18628.132,"end":18641.985,"text":"那麼麻煩一下我的選票在哪裡他就從抽屜裡面拿出來你知道那種感覺煞時就覺得我好像不是中華民國的國民的感覺而這個問題已經存在很久了那主委您剛剛告訴我的是說你希望在手冊裡面他們訓練裡面來解決這個問題可是別忘了已經存在很久我剛剛講的考核是已經投完票了啦"},{"start":18654.236,"end":18663.724,"text":"對不對 你才可能嘛第二個我們也沒有帶手機不能夠在現場拍嘛他就一定被警察請出去嘛請問我要怎麼樣 真正覺得有沒有有投訴的話 我們都會進行調查"},{"start":18668.82,"end":18691.732,"text":"主委我覺得這是消極了剛剛我講的就是在一個場地裡面你們大罷免就花了這麼多錢你們能不能夠在合法的選舉上面讓我的族人感到受尊重然後花一點點的錢在這個場地裡面再開一個小場地因為都會區裡面族人投票的人不多嘛"},{"start":18693.153,"end":18707.061,"text":"你們可以掌握訊息嗎要不就是你在投票的地方就寫得非常的清楚讓我們的族人都清楚知道他要到哪裡去領票而不要到那邊領票又遭受到這樣子被侮辱的感受"},{"start":18708.636,"end":18724.495,"text":"我跟委員來做個報告就是第一點我們考慮到這個投開票所的空間因為不是每一個投開票所你現在能夠保證說每一個空間都不行嗎你能不能去做你跟內政部去一起討論在都會區裡面"},{"start":18727.498,"end":18744.391,"text":"原鄉是不會發生這個問題這個只有在都會區你能不能去找出所有用心在都會區投票最多的地區開出一個地方我沒有要求你全部開人數最多的地方來去處理可以嗎"},{"start":18745.952,"end":18753.659,"text":"我 我有一點可以讓我說一下嗎不會啦 不會 主委主委 我們跟高軍委員協商一下好不好好 是是委員可以嗎 我可以過去跟您再做個報告"},{"start":19420.607,"end":19447.235,"text":"各位委員跟各位委員報告我們討論事項三處理審查一百一十四年度中央政府總預算案有關中央選舉委員會預算凍結專案報告計事案各位委員我們第一案第三案第四案均同意動之提報院會各位委員有沒有意見你有意見好"},{"start":19452.278,"end":19452.399,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":19467.963,"end":19485.007,"text":"因為今天剛才才看到我想要請教一下我們的主委關於第15有關新住民參政權這個部分因為我看到這邊我們是之前有提出在第一案就是他的報告裡面說"},{"start":19493.103,"end":19510.094,"text":"對 但是我是希望說這個部分因為報告裡面我們之前有要求說是不是有其他語言的翻譯讓大家會看知道說這個選舉但是我現在看到這邊的報告專案報告裡面有寫對 但是"},{"start":19514.62,"end":19535.72,"text":"這邊寫的說我們有開票所的工作人員還有就是先導的措施我們公職人員選舉有11種選舉人數就是說我們在11年就是有2萬人但是說我們希望說個翻譯就更多但是我們這邊看到報告的說"},{"start":19536.761,"end":19553.229,"text":"其实就是自爱难行啊但是又说现在社会上有很多的资讯传达管道希望我们就是透过这个资讯传达管道来去来去了解我觉得这个部分我希望说我们现在"},{"start":19554.329,"end":19556.53,"text":"有那麼多新住民在選舉 我們的各個縣市有沒有說開放讓不同國家的新住民當這個開票所的工作人員還有協助 因為很多人去選舉嘛 但是開票所又沒有"},{"start":19572.78,"end":19572.92,"text":"請你補議委員"},{"start":19604.266,"end":19623.703,"text":"我們現在在處理是處理中選會這個一共有四個案那剛剛麥委員講的應該是跟高清委員講的一樣第二案所以134應該是主席建議可以繼續往下走那第二案如果他們還有意見的話就要不要再說明看看那134我看起來大家是有共識 謝謝"},{"start":19626.588,"end":19645.323,"text":"麥委員 你的案跟那個高軍委員案是同一案啊我們就是要保留了好 所以我請問各位委員 第一、三、四案是否同意動之同意好 那第二案呢 我們另定其處理"},{"start":19647.163,"end":19674.708,"text":"然後請李處委跟我們選委會這邊有書面的詳細的資料之後你去高軍委員的辦公室跟高軍委員你們再先事先協調一下所以我們再另定其處理可以嗎好 周委還有就是剛剛范玉珍委員提的這個也請他們到范玉珍辦公室去 好嗎好 請你他什麼"},{"start":19676.075,"end":19676.978,"text":"可以嗎?還是你現在要說"},{"start":19734.67,"end":19740.975,"text":"好來各位各位委員各位同仁那我們現在進行討論事項也可以啦好那我們處理完畢請中選會選舉委員會的人員可以先行離開"},{"start":19788.424,"end":19801.211,"text":"好各位委員同仁我們現在進行討論事項是處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關大陸委員會預算凍結中央報告暨案 暨武案請問各位委員是否均同意動之好 都同意動之好那我們均同意動之提報院會"},{"start":19818.697,"end":19846.731,"text":"好那請處理完畢請大陸委員會人員可以先行離席好各位委員同仁我們現在進行討論事項五處理審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關客家委員會預算凍結專案報告書面報告案及期案請問各位委員是否均同意動之同意同意同意好"},{"start":19848.194,"end":19863.281,"text":"那我們均同意動之提報院會好 那本日會議到此結束 現在休息"},{"start":19887.205,"end":19888.625,"text":"有有有"},{"start":19909.18,"end":19909.241,"text":"這裏有個大廈。"}]}},{"id":"161177","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161177","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d5238a8bcdf2597c48d988fdfbeb5b66875126717e85ea3e0085217a0206b96f6855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"09:23:03 - 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順序一開始 院會是交交通委員會 一開始的案子只是後來的案子 又交到教育委員會來審查那所以呢 這個論及先後順序 院會一開始也是先交交通委員會來審查"},{"start":47.213,"end":69.48,"text":"第二個作為行政機關的行政院基本上雖然版本還沒到但是如果大家私下問行政院的聯絡人或者相關速發部國科會都可以知道行政院的態度是傾向速發部那因為這個基本法的體力沒有主管機關"},{"start":71.024,"end":82.47,"text":"只有未來的作用法也就是怎麼管理啊怎麼監督啊這個才有主管機關但是行政院傾向於統籌啊是由速發部來做所以呢"},{"start":83.8,"end":112.1,"text":"第二個本席覺得應該留在交通委員會來主審這是第二個原因第三個原因我本來以為這個主席啊民眾黨的版本看起來也是傾向有數發布來作為一個主導所以我也覺得應該留在這個交通委員會來審那最後呢我想是這樣子啦聯席審查都兩邊的委員都可以審但是差異在哪裡差異在譬如說"},{"start":113.65,"end":136.687,"text":"禮拜三教育委員會就排要審查AI基本法 但我們陳雪生委員 馬祖很重要地方建設 交通建設很重要 所以他排了馬祖考察那陳雪生委員他就沒辦法參加這個AI基本法的審查這個就對交通委員會的委員的權益有所損害"},{"start":137.97,"end":158.965,"text":"那所以未來也可能同樣的面臨同樣的問題就是其他教育委員會排什麼那我們交通委員會的委員的權益相對會受損所以這個事情我的看法是就算要協商也應該要請院長出來協商啦在這裡交通委員會表決然後交通委員會自我閹割說我們把它讓掉好了"},{"start":160.986,"end":181.113,"text":"這個站在交通委員會本位跟專業的立場上本席作為交通委員的議員我還是要出來講講話啦當然如果等一下主席硬要表決那當然還是會國民黨來贏嘛 因為人數多但我覺得立場的表達對於一個交通委員會專業的審查跟到底"},{"start":182.625,"end":209.98,"text":"教文委員會 交通委員會聯席審查反過來 交通委員會 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謝謝葛如今委員"}]}},{"id":"161179","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161179","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d52412b84b384e35c9a988fdfbeb5b66875126717e85ea3e00872731b879b6e1a705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:47:18 - 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謝謝趙偉那本席來做我這一次提案的公路法第46條及第60條之一條文修正草案的簡要說明我想公路法已經很多很多年了這個沒有修訂那最早在民國48年訂定那我知道在民國92年的時候也有修法"},{"start":26.241,"end":48.283,"text":"所謂的92年的修法版本是說我們發生交通事故致人於死或重傷者後那汽車運輸業的營業車輛發生交通事故之後呢車輛的所有人利用辦理過戶等方式行脫產之時所以影響後續受害人權益那在為了避免他們"},{"start":49.783,"end":76.891,"text":"所以受害者本人或其配偶親屬及申請可以提出申請暫不予以核准屬該業者登記名義全部或部分車輛過戶也就是說過去我們歷年來發生了很多的重大的交通意外事故有關營業車輛不管是遊覽車或是砂石車有時候他們因為是自有或是挖行"},{"start":78.611,"end":82.733,"text":"發生了重大的交通意外事故之後自然於死或重傷者那常常屢見發生就是行脫產之時那讓這個受害者配偶或家屬他沒有辦法得到應有的一個賠償"},{"start":95.601,"end":124.12,"text":"就已經身體不管是往生或是受重傷就很難過了但是我們在後續的協調裡面發生了會損及這個受害人自身或家屬配偶的權益所以我在公路法第46條把它修為今天希望各個委員能夠支持的版本希望把這個主管機關的被動申請方式調整修正為主動告知受害者本人或其配偶"},{"start":125.741,"end":148.396,"text":"也就是說如果一旦營業車輛發生了所謂的重大的交通事故致人於死或重傷者那我們交通部現行的公路主管機關應該要主動的來告知事件裡面受害者本人或其配偶親屬來保障受害者人的法定"},{"start":149.676,"end":166.562,"text":"那也確保這個後續的賠償可以順利以及公道得以伸張那當然在第二個是公路法的第60條之一就是也是在維護民眾的一個權益就是現行我們的公路主管機關在修建或維護"},{"start":167.702,"end":196.825,"text":"公路及設施的安全需要巡查檢測的時候那目前的法律是得派員進入公司有土地內但是我們曾經在屢次的這個民眾的陳情裡面發現很多次的這個公路的相關單位要巡檢或者是檢測的時候進入了這個私人的土地的時候並沒有獲得地主的許可跟同意所以經常發生爭議所以我們提案修正是希望"},{"start":197.786,"end":202.75,"text":"能夠參考相關的行政程序法、民事訴訟法等等我們希望能夠要求有巡查或是檢測需求的單位必須以文書交由務機構來掛號送達"},{"start":215.518,"end":235.039,"text":"那我希望這樣子是可以保障雙方的一個權益既保障私有土地地主民眾的相關法定權益也能夠保障巡檢單位跟人員不因爭議而有可能受訴訟之災所以以上兩條法案的修法請各位支持"}]}},{"id":"161176","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161176","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d52122f11d9acd5fa36988fdfbeb5b66875126717e85ea3e00853aeae6a5651927f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"09:17:59 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由我們林國成 趙偉 你來主責 我們都支持我們希望就是說 這個也是我們在立法院的這個職權行使法因為已經由院會來交付 教文會審查了我們也不希望說 我們自我矮化 自廢武功然後要去讓給這個教文來主責"},{"start":110.106,"end":129.894,"text":"那在這個就是等一下就是我們希望就是說經過大家的一個討論然後我們也有一個版本那我們希望就是說由我們叫交通委員會來主責那希望這個AI基本法能夠透過大家的一個充分的一個討論有更完整的一個法案的一個內容謝謝謝謝陳書偉委員"}]}},{"id":"161175","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161175","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d52a0b146c3ebc76374988fdfbeb5b66875126717e85ea3e0080cd442c3dfdba8065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"09:15:21 - 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兩個花園那你來謝謝主席 各位先進 大家好剛剛洪孟凱偉也提到這個AI是世界的潮流那全世界未來其實大家都非常的重視那台灣是AI"},{"start":22.902,"end":40.935,"text":"製造硬體 全世界最強的國家那未來當然AI應用的這一部分我們也希望說台灣可以繼續的往前進目前台灣排名還不到前20名所以有很多需要我們整體去努力的空間那當然"},{"start":42.764,"end":64.88,"text":"這個部分將來最重要的重擔當然就是在數位發展部這個是最專業的單位未來負責最專業的事情推動台灣在這部分邁向世界成為最前進的國家這個當然是重中之重所以我們也希望說將來能夠交給"},{"start":67.463,"end":72.617,"text":"執行單位最專業的單位去做那這個單位是誰當然就是數位發展部"},{"start":74.002,"end":99.42,"text":"所以教育文化委員會大家一起關心這個我們都非常的覺得歡喜就是大家一起來關心一起來拍拚但是主要的單位組織的單位我認為我們還是要交給最專業的將來要執行的所以我們黨團也有一個版本就是說將來希望說我們給交通委員會跟教育文化委員會來聯席 OK"},{"start":101.201,"end":118.934,"text":"但是呢 主導當然就是交通委員會來主導那行政院的版本也會以速發部為主所以我是覺得為什麼行政 立法將來要一致的有共識而且我們希望台灣要做到最好"},{"start":119.754,"end":142.968,"text":"我們也希望說最專業的數位發展部來主導希望說我們國民黨委員大家可以去同意就是說誰是最單位可以做到最好我們應該就要支持誰不要只是說大家有個想法說要給誰就給誰不是這樣子而是執行最重要的單位是誰我們必須做這一部分的思考希望國民黨委員一起來支持 謝謝好 謝謝喜智傑 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我相信"},{"start":148.883,"end":167.839,"text":"今天在交通委員會裡面的委員每一位委員不分黨派不分朝野都能夠支持我們國家需要趕快制定人工智慧基本法就請能夠接受今天我們所提出來的一個提議以上 謝謝謝謝我們黃孟楷委員那個"}]}},{"id":"161181","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161181","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d52281cf7dc89cc867f988fdfbeb5b66875e877ab6b0e850c6a9a3094d9e1bf3ba55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"09:55:59 - 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謝謝主席在停車場法裡面有規定有幾種樣態是有專屬車格的嘛一個是身心障礙一個是孕婦及六歲以下兒孩童那就是近幾年因應電動車的心情有一個電動車專用充電的一個車格但前面兩者的它是一個資格就是說如果說我們有這個相關排面的話我們就可以去停但是停車場"},{"start":25.854,"end":30.235,"text":"電動車的樣態有點不一樣他不是資格我們就我們的規定他必須要有充電適時他才能停並不是說我的電動車就可以停在充電車格那所以說依照我們現在的法令就算是電動車停在充電車格他沒有充電他一樣是有相關的罰則是去可以做懲處那這個跟前面兩則是不太一樣的那他"},{"start":48.36,"end":55.805,"text":"既然是一個狀態的話也代表說他的這個車格有一個不可替代性也就是說如果說我們是一個六歲以下孩童或者是孕婦的話我們畫這個車格可能就是給他方便鄰近出入口讓他行走距離更短但是實際上他就算沒有停在這些車格他停在其他車格他一樣還是可以停"},{"start":68.513,"end":77.378,"text":"或者是身心障礙車格當然身心障礙車格有一些他需要比較寬的空間他必須要在身心障礙車格停那有一些其他車格或許他也是能夠上下車但是針對電動車主來講的話如果說他要充電的話他唯一的選擇就是在充電車格而已其他的一般的車格他是沒有辦法他是沒有辦法"},{"start":86.062,"end":99.326,"text":"它可以停放但它就沒有辦法充電它沒有辦法有充電的一個狀態所以說它是有一個不可替代性前面兩者它是有替代性的充電的車格它是有不可替代性的那既然它是有不可替代性的話所以說我們的法規才有規定有修過法就是必須要有充電狀態的話"},{"start":104.847,"end":110.349,"text":"那才能夠符合使用的一個有充電動態才能夠使用嘛並不是電動車就可以停所以這次我才提出這個法令的修改就是除了既有的罰則之外我們也要求停車場業者針對沒有充電的一個車輛停放的話必須可能他要通報或者是"},{"start":123.835,"end":134.041,"text":"有一致的權利通報警方一致的權利那充電有沒有在充電狀態這個我看過業務單位的提案說明有時候他確實有一些夜間的問題你說現在的電動車的電池容量或許他可能充到半夜就滿了那如果說你真的馬上叫他一致確實有點不符合人情或者是這個"},{"start":148.248,"end":169.298,"text":"你有時候不一定是車主的問題有時候是充電狀況的問題有時候或者是我們很難去判斷它的狀態是不是充飽電了有時候每一家的設備不一樣或者是設備有沒有故障也怎麼樣它有時候很難釐清所以說當然我不是說我的法案不一定說一定要按照我的條文來修改但是至少我們停在充電車格如果沒有"},{"start":171.519,"end":175.365,"text":"把充電線連接到車子這樣子的一個樣態的話他連充電的動機都沒有的話那我希望他有一個更為強烈的一個處置的方式來給業者或者是執法機關以上 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各位請坐"},{"start":1828.305,"end":1836.494,"text":"好 出席委員已足法定人數現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1840.919,"end":1868.525,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會計交通委員會第十次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百一四年五月八日新一四上午九十九分至下午一十九分地點本院紅樓二零一會議室主席委員李坤哲等十五人練習委員李坤誠等二十人練習官員交通部部長陳士凱等主席許昭吉委員致解報告四項一 宣讀上述會議議事錄決定議事錄確定二處理一百一三年度凍結案及二案"},{"start":1869.165,"end":1897.866,"text":"決定個案書面報告已送達均予以備查提報院會進行專題報告一項並備質詢本日會議由交通部部長陳士凱等報告後藉由委員洪孟凱等二三人提出質詢軍警部長陳士凱及相關人員分別予以答覆決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員蘇清泉等三人所提書面質詢均列入記錄並刊登公報三委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請交通部及相關機關建樹以書面答覆"},{"start":1898.306,"end":1926.784,"text":"三會宣布完畢好 各位委員對於會議制度會議錄有沒有有沒有意見好 沒有意見我們議事錄確定好 現在我們來介紹我們本會委員葛如晶委員陳雪生委員邱若驊委員許智傑委員"},{"start":1929.846,"end":1954.297,"text":"那個廖先祥委員陳素燮委員許護魁委員好現在我們來介紹官員我們數位部黃燕蘭部長數位策略師蔡司長"},{"start":1956.294,"end":1980.535,"text":"法治處陳學文處長國科會我們政務主任委員陳秉渝前瞻應用處專門委員何繼芳交通部政次陳彥博次長公共運輸司長林福山陸政司黃韻貴"},{"start":1985.413,"end":2009.394,"text":"會計處張信一處長法治處喜鴻達處長中規規劃師副司長吳東林副司長公務局陳文瑞局長高工局趙新華局長我們印書研究所副所長王孟衡"},{"start":2011.783,"end":2036.226,"text":"財政部國庫署檢任機合楊博存內政部交通組陳明柱執掌經濟部國營管理師專門委員黃繫暉能源署代理組長夏谷全標準局檢任機基政鄭乃延"},{"start":2038.39,"end":2065.002,"text":"台電公司專業總工程師郭芳蘭中油公司副總工程師陳國華自來水處長蔡博焱金融監督金融師專門委員王祺華這是什麼 利是吧"},{"start":2066.788,"end":2086.722,"text":"農業部自然署檢任機要林鄉立林院試驗所組長鄭美如環境部檢任機政李承仰行政院主計處公務預算處長專門委員王淺凱好好再來補充介紹我們林進憲委員"},{"start":2098.055,"end":2108.77,"text":"李坤哲委員蔡奇章副院長還有洪孟楷委員"},{"start":2134.482,"end":2153.808,"text":"好各位首先我們來處理程序問題現在一個程序動議提案是不是針對本日討論四項第一案人工智慧基本法等四案的審查請議事人員宣讀程序動議提案"},{"start":2160.202,"end":2187.908,"text":"有建議各黨團及各委員會針對人工智慧基本法草案人工智慧發展及管理條例草案所規範之中央主管機關應為數位發展部或國家科學及技術委員會產生旗艦至各版本與運匯裝備分別交由交通委員會或教育及文化交通兩委員會審查教育及文化委員會更已於一百一四年四月十六日即召開制定人工智慧基本法草案聯席公聽會"},{"start":2189.068,"end":2204.927,"text":"且行政院版本目前尚未正式提出然而國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳承文於教育及文化委員會備詢時表示國科會違憲行政院會審查之人工智慧基本法草案提出單位未必免本院"},{"start":2205.327,"end":2234.104,"text":"交通委員會教育及文化委員會與審查人工智慧基本法草案人工智慧發展及管理條例草案時重複排案審查淪為雙頭馬車且針對人工智慧之應用規範以兼容科學研究創新及治安風險管理故交由教育及文化交通兩委會審查應更為妥適依據立法院各委員會組織法第13條規定原提案針對本日議程所列討論思想第一案應停止審查"},{"start":2235.444,"end":2239.226,"text":"好各位委員針對這些有沒有意見好有意見好那現在接下來我們就請陳旭花園是不是來登記一下好不好"},{"start":2269.523,"end":2276.1,"text":"好 那現在登記的葛如今委員先發言好不好 三分鐘"},{"start":2287.056,"end":2310.029,"text":"謝謝主席也謝謝與會的先進前輩以及機關部會的同仁長官我想今天要首先感謝林國成趙偉安排本日的議程也感謝民眾黨的支持我們才有這次重新討論議程的機會從各個委員會提案的內容當中可以很明確的知道"},{"start":2310.609,"end":2324.855,"text":"人工智慧的發展在未來橫跨多個領域非常需要跨部會進行研議因此希望待會在各個同僚的共識之下能夠將人工智慧基本法改由教育文化"},{"start":2325.655,"end":2351.235,"text":"联席交通委员会进行后续的审查让人工智慧相关的议题能够得到更充分更广泛以研发开放为主的讨论事实上回顾整个人工智慧基本法的立法过程在前任主委吴政中任内及着力甚深去年吴承文主委接任以后更是积极的与产业界学术界进行咨询会议"},{"start":2351.955,"end":2370.508,"text":"並且在去年的7月份由國科會進行草案預告收集各方意見也準時的在去年10月提報行政院進行討論直到今年的2月26號不明原因行政院突然一聲下令將人工智慧基本法"},{"start":2370.908,"end":2388.641,"text":"改由速發部主管之前整個人工智慧基本法的法制化作業其實一直是持續由國科會在著手推動的因此由教育文化委員會聯席交通委員會進行後續的審查絕對具有十足的正當性以及合理性"},{"start":2389.361,"end":2408.007,"text":"回顾过去立法院的确也曾经有法案改交其他委员会审查的案例例如第九届的个人资料保护法修正草案一开始交由司法法治委员会审查最终也在询答前经主席同意后提报院会改交由经济委员会进行审查"},{"start":2408.667,"end":2431.96,"text":"第十屆的生技新藥產業發展條例修正草案曾在經濟委員會兩位召委的同意之下提報院會改交由經濟社福及未還以及財政三個委員會聯席審查讓法案能夠獲得更完善更全面的討論最後也要感謝目前已經提出立法草案的民眾黨黨團以及十位立委的同僚"},{"start":2432.941,"end":2449.779,"text":"那也感謝交通及教文兩個委員會所有委員的支持後續也期望有更多的立委同僚一起關注人工智慧領域提出多元的法案版本進行討論本席認為目前正值台灣訂定人工智慧基本法的關鍵時刻面對國際競爭的壓力"},{"start":2452.662,"end":2471.086,"text":"台灣應盡速制定適合我們自身發展的人工智慧基本法其中需要非常多的資料需要非常多的人才以及教育以促進科技創新以及產業的發展同時兼顧人權倫理及社會價值維持台灣在全球AI產業的關鍵競爭與競爭力"},{"start":2473.507,"end":2493.077,"text":"未來AI治理奠定堅實的基礎5月8號在美國參議院所進行的聽證會有AMD有這個OpenAI出席相關的專案人士也都支持開放與人才的方針反對嚴格的審查式的監管因此本週三"},{"start":2493.777,"end":2512.913,"text":"教文委員會也將聯席交通委員會進行人工智慧基本法的詢答歡迎各位關心人工智慧相關議題的同僚踴躍登記詢答最終再次感謝鄰國陳昭偉安排今天的議程未來我們也將更加緊密的攜手合作共同促成台灣首部人工智慧基本法的誕生謝謝好 謝謝葛如今委員現在洪孟凱委員請發言"},{"start":2529.451,"end":2554.39,"text":"主席各位立院先進我想今天大家都知道人工智慧是未來大家世界潮流跟趨勢而台灣過去我們自詡是科技相關人才的輸出也因此人工智慧基本法絕對我們不能缺席更重要的是我們必須在這個世界趨勢的浪潮上面絕對要掌握先機"},{"start":2555.251,"end":2579.6,"text":"也因此從過去我們在第十屆的最後以及第十一屆開始的時候都一直希望人工智慧基本法可以列為國民黨團優先法案更不只一次在去年的時候我們在教育文化委員會我已經有跟國科會主委也都一直在問到底我們行政院院版的人工智慧基本法什麼時候會出爐"},{"start":2581.041,"end":2607.724,"text":"因為唯有行政部門跟我們立法部門大家共同來研商才能夠趕快把相關的法令給制定出來之後讓所有產業界公部門私領域有規則可循這是一個大家共同努力的方向所以現在看到教育文化委員會也已經在4月16號召開了公聘會當天本席也過去特別與"},{"start":2609.719,"end":2614.768,"text":"業界先進以及我們相關部門官員來做意見交流而現在"},{"start":2616.482,"end":2645.874,"text":"交通委員會以及交通文化委員會也都有各自人工智慧基本法的版本所以站在立法以及整個效率大家能夠匯集的方向上面我們更希望的是能夠把兩個委員會共同集中不要有多頭馬車的情況所以今天我們做出這個程序的動議就認為是現在交通委員會我們有幾案的人工智慧基本法草案或是人工智慧發展管理條例"},{"start":2647.646,"end":2675.022,"text":"與教育文化委員會的人工智慧基本法草案能夠並合併共同來做行政部門的一個審理我想這是一個開大門走大路並且匯集相關領域以及意見的時刻我們更希望是行政部門能夠在這個時間點上面趕快提出行政院的版本與立法委員共同的版本來做共同的討論所以在我相信"},{"start":2675.402,"end":2694.954,"text":"今天在交通委員會裡面的委員每一位委員不分黨派不分朝野都能夠支持我們國家需要趕快制定人工智慧基本法就請能夠接受今天我們所提出來的一個提議 以上謝謝謝謝我們黃孟楷委員 那個趙偉來那個喜之傑 趙偉來"},{"start":2702.878,"end":2725.152,"text":"那個蔡副院長你也準備一下因為這邊有兩個登記啊兩個花園那你來謝謝主席各位先進大家好剛剛洪孟愷我也提到這個AI是世界的潮流那全世界未來其實大家都非常的重視那台灣是AI"},{"start":2727.578,"end":2746.076,"text":"製造硬體 全世界最強的國家那未來當然AI應用的這一部分我們也希望說台灣可以繼續的往前進目前台灣排名還不到前20名所以有很多需要我們整體去努力的空間那當然"},{"start":2747.437,"end":2768.612,"text":"這個部分將來最重要的重擔當然就是在數位發展部這個是最專業的單位未來負責最專業的事情推動台灣在這部分邁向世界成為最前進的國家這個當然是重中之重所以我們也希望說將來能夠交給"},{"start":2772.155,"end":2777.296,"text":"執行單位最專業的單位去做那這個單位是誰當然就是數位發展部"},{"start":2778.678,"end":2804.093,"text":"所以教育文化委員會大家一起關心這個我們都非常的覺得歡喜就是大家一起來關心一起來拍拚但是主要的單位組織的單位我認為我們還是要交給最專業的將來要執行的所以我們黨團也有一個版本就是說將來希望說我們給交通委員會跟教育文化委員會來聯席 OK"},{"start":2805.894,"end":2834.587,"text":"但是主導當然就是交通委員會來主導行政院的版本也會以速發部為主所以我是覺得為什麼行政立法將來要一致的有共識而且我們希望台灣要做到最好我們也希望說最專業的數位發展部來主導希望說我們國民黨委員大家可以去同意就是說誰是最單位可以做到最好我們應該就要支持誰"},{"start":2835.687,"end":2847.658,"text":"不要只是說大家有個想法說要給誰就給誰不是這樣子 而是執行最重要的當然是誰我們必須做這一部分的思考希望國民黨委員一起來支持 謝謝好 謝謝喜智傑召委現在請陳樹葉委員發言"},{"start":2866.106,"end":2882.433,"text":"謝謝主席我想我們都知道就是隨著這個科技的一個日新月異的一個發展那這個AI基本法真的是大家期待能夠趕快來制定我想這個是大家的一個共識可是這個AI基本法未來制定之後的一個運用也"},{"start":2883.874,"end":2886.895,"text":"有很多的一個風險包括這個人權或者是倫理或者資安等等的風險這個也是必須我們要審慎去面對跟思考的一個部分所以為什麼行政院後來在院會會議之後會來確定這個主管機關改由速發部來主政"},{"start":2902.679,"end":2928.686,"text":"因為這個我想不管是這個創新的這個部分我想這個都是大家都是沒有意見的可是資安更加的一個重要我想這個部分涉及到國家的一個安全社會的一個安定所以我們當然對有委員主張說要改由教育教文跟交通委員會來聯席審查本席也不反對"},{"start":2929.366,"end":2945.831,"text":"不過我這邊我是主張應該聯席的話也應該要由交通委員會來主責因為行政院委員會已經確定主管機關是改油素發布來主政了所以聯席的話也應該是由交通委員會來聯席所以我在這邊建議主席要爭取因為我們要由我們交通委員會來"},{"start":2951.152,"end":2964.536,"text":"主責啦 我也支持有我們林國成 趙偉你來主責 我們都支持我們希望就是說這個也是我們在立法院的這個職權行使法因為已經由院會來交付教文會審查了我們也不希望說我們自我矮化 自廢武功然後要去讓給這個教文來主責"},{"start":2972.958,"end":2989.805,"text":"那在這個就是等一下就是我們希望就是說經過大家的一個討論然後我們也有一個版本那我們希望就是說由我們叫交通委員會來主責那希望這個AI基本法能夠透過大家的一個充分的一個討論有更完整的一個法案的一個內容謝謝"},{"start":2995.621,"end":3004.977,"text":"好 謝謝陳書瑋委員那另外現在有陳系動議另外一個案請我們議事委員宣讀第二案的動議"},{"start":3011.877,"end":3031.096,"text":"情緒動力提案二為避免本院交通委員會教育及文化委員會審查人工智慧基本法草案等案重複審查原依立法院各委員會組織法第十三條針對討論四項第一案均提報院會改交交通教育及文化兩委員會審查是否有當盡情公決提案人委員許志傑等宣讀完畢"},{"start":3033.9,"end":3052.611,"text":"因為今天這個動議有兩個案如果其中一案通過那另外一案就不處理那這裡特別跟各位報告我在看兩黨大家的共識都有啦也就是到底是誰來主導"},{"start":3053.672,"end":3079.423,"text":"那我特別要跟各位報告現在我們大會交給教育教文委員會有六案也是這個案子有六案那個時候當初是大會交給教育跟我們交通聯席那個交有六個案那我們這裡是有四個案"},{"start":3080.339,"end":3093.909,"text":"那因為這個會產生因為我在看大家我排這個當然我也想了蠻多的也就是說他們既然那邊有六案這裡四案那你不能一個案子兩個都在審那這樣的話可能會不連貫"},{"start":3097.992,"end":3112.271,"text":"所以我所以國民黨提這個案我才會把它排列說大家來處理那我還要特別是大家的看法AI的話沒有問題所以到那邊也是聯席在我們這裡也是聯席"},{"start":3114.293,"end":3134.032,"text":"所以這個部分我特別跟大家說明 大家都不反對這個現在就到底是數位部 或者這個教育體系的主管機關 問題在這裡而已那我還是建議啦 我還是建議 我們就照這些程序來處理那至於要改誰"},{"start":3135.433,"end":3156.005,"text":"那個我們也聯席啊我們交通我們也可以去堅持我們要主導或者教育要主導這個大家都可以商量我在想目標都一致這個華要讓他過要讓他過所以這個主席特別跟各位委員來做一個說明好不好那現在那個會長來"},{"start":3161.104,"end":3179.012,"text":"好 這個我們蔡副院長花言完了以後我們就進行處理好不好謝謝主席啦我想有幾個事項本席還是覺得我這個會期竟然在交通委員會我就應該為交通委員會講講話"},{"start":3181.121,"end":3205.304,"text":"第一個這個大家內容啦AI基本法的重要性然後要進入審查那基本上由交通跟教育委員會來聯席我想大家爭議都不大那彈擊這個事情順序一開始院會是交交通委員會一開始的案子只是後來的案子又交到教育委員會來審查"},{"start":3207.145,"end":3232.26,"text":"那所以呢 這個論級先後順序 院會一開始也是先交交通委員會來審查第二個 作為主管機關的 作為行政機關的行政院基本上 雖然版本還沒到但是如果大家私下問行政院的聯絡人 或者相關速發部 國科會都可以知道 行政院的態度是傾向速發部"},{"start":3233.666,"end":3249.628,"text":"那因為這個基本法的體力沒有主管機關只有未來的作用法也就是怎麼管理怎麼監督這個才有主管機關但是行政院傾向於統籌是由速發部來做所以呢"},{"start":3250.95,"end":3279.227,"text":"第二個本席覺得應該留在交通委員會來主審這是第二個原因第三個原因我本來以為這個主席啊民眾黨的版本看起來也是傾向有數發布來做為一個主導所以我也覺得應該留在這個交通委員會來審那最後呢我想是這樣子啦聯席審查都兩邊的委員都可以審但是差異在哪裡差異在譬如說"},{"start":3280.783,"end":3303.823,"text":"禮拜三教育委員會就排要審查AI基本法 但我們陳雪生委員 馬祖很重要地方建設 交通建設很重要 所以他排了馬祖考察那陳雪生委員他就沒辦法參加這個AI基本法的審查這個就對交通委員會的委員的權益有所損害"},{"start":3305.12,"end":3318.451,"text":"那所以未來也可能同樣的面臨同樣的問題就是其他交通委員會要排什麼那我們交通委員會的委員的權益相對會受損所以這個事情我的看法是就算要協商"},{"start":3319.54,"end":3348.263,"text":"也應該要請院長出來協商啦在這裡交通委員會表決然後交通委員會自我閹割說我們把它讓掉好了這個站在交通委員會本位跟專業的立場上本席作為交通委員的議員我還是要出來講講話啦當然如果等一下主席硬要表決那當然還是會國民黨來贏嘛因為人數多但我覺得立場的表達對於一個交通委員會專業的審查跟到底"},{"start":3349.778,"end":3377.113,"text":"教文委員會 交通委員會聯席審查反過來 交通委員會 教文委員會聯席審查它的差異到底是什麼所以我認為啦交通委員會的委員 我們本於做這個委員會的專業立委我們對於立場的表達上面我們應該還是要去堅持啦所以更何況行政院的主張他還是希望未來由抒發部來主導協調跟統合的這個角色所以本席還是主張齁"},{"start":3379.094,"end":3391.479,"text":"這個還是有差啦雖然兩個人會聯繫審查但那個差異到底在哪裡我覺得我還是要在這個站在這裡啊把它做一個說明跟釐清謝謝主席謝謝蔡其昌副院長我在看兩個案啦這個立場"},{"start":3395.74,"end":3411.755,"text":"都是一致也就是說這個AI法是要審的但是只是主責機關的認知不一樣其實這裡我特別要說明到那邊我們還是可以堅持也就是我們行政院版提出來"},{"start":3412.836,"end":3436.729,"text":"如果不管是數位部不管是國科會當然我們所有的委員還是可以去堅持跟更改啦在這個部分啊我在想既然抗華差距這麼多那是不是我們就依照我們的意識程序我們來做到底要表決或者要協商呢"},{"start":3443.907,"end":3470.237,"text":"我還是贊成剛剛蔡副院長提到的就是說其實我希望大家想一想未來要做事情是什麼樣的事情那就是速發部要做事情他主要要擔這個責任那你今天說教育委員會也有參與到那經濟部會不會有參與到 也有啊那其他的部會 很多部會勞動部有沒有參與到 也有啊那你為什麼不放到勞動部去"},{"start":3472.179,"end":3488.851,"text":"我希望大家想一想那個道理最主要的負責的單位就是速發部有參與到的教育部會參與到經濟部會參與到勞動部會參與到這麼多單位參與到的為什麼不放到其他的部會為什麼要放到教委會"},{"start":3490.748,"end":3504.668,"text":"那你放到衛環勞動部也可以啊你放到經濟部也可以啊為什麼要放在我們教委會為什麼要塑化部因為是他在主導未來是他在主導我希望大家想一想不是意識形態的問題是誰去做事的問題"},{"start":3508.332,"end":3525.179,"text":"這是差很多的 希望說大家想想啦那當然如果說大家今天投票或直接贊成我們的意見大家有困難 是不是就是剛剛蔡副院長講的 我們讓院會來協商那我們就進行表決好不好來來來 清點人數來"},{"start":3529.267,"end":3555.579,"text":"好 算一下14位好 在場委員本委員會委員14位好 贊成贊成國民黨提案的請先遞案先表決贊成提案1的請舉手那個那個葛衛原不行來 葛衛原不行"},{"start":3559.346,"end":3563.848,"text":"好七位七位來好緩隊的請舉手好七位好依照贊成跟緩隊同票數那依照有關規定同票數的起結議主席來做決定本席贊成提案第一案通過"},{"start":3589.195,"end":3604.143,"text":"不是 我特別進去那邊我們還可以堅持我也贊成 好不好好 那我們這個你們的版本是四花布 張偉你忘記了"},{"start":3609.685,"end":3638.465,"text":"我跟你講那個進了那邊我們都還可以我們的版本我們那個版本也是這樣沒錯不是啦 招委你是民眾黨跟國民黨推選的招委我們支持啦 這也尊重啦但是你做招委 既然自己把自我閹割你們自己民眾黨黨團的版本是速發布為主管單位那速發布在我們交通委員會那你怎麼會把這個案子送出去"},{"start":3639.726,"end":3645.613,"text":"個別私底下的意見我都願意跟所有委員來做說明跟溝通你不要投票 你應該用兩邊猜拳啦 抽籤啦這裡面 以照會議規範有關之規定來辦理啦 好不好"},{"start":3654.343,"end":3674.589,"text":"那至於我們民眾黨會支持在數位部或國科會那個時候我們到時候還是會來討論那我們的提案當然是那個數位部所以把所有的案齁所有的案把它連起來大家還可以談嘛不是這樣就解決嘛好不好"},{"start":3678.259,"end":3689.888,"text":"人工智慧基本法草案人工智慧發展及管理條例草案等四案依據立法院各委員會組織法第13條規定報請院會決定經改交"},{"start":3700.683,"end":3712.979,"text":"交易及文化交通兩委員會審查並以義事錄經主席核定後函報宴會處理這是今天的結議好"},{"start":3718.063,"end":3742.833,"text":"本案會議就不審了人工智慧基本法等四案數位部及國科會所送的書面報告列入記錄並刊登公報現在休息十分鐘先起十分鐘兩位機關代表就請先行離席謝謝大家感謝我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":4349.5,"end":4365.866,"text":"好 各位請就座接下來進行審查公路法及停車場法等修正草案的相關程序首先請提案的委員何新淳委員說明時間3分鐘"},{"start":4374.482,"end":4381.265,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉那本席來做我這一次提案的公路法第46條及第60條之一條文修正草案的簡要說明我想公路法已經很多很多年這個沒有修訂那最早在民國48年訂定那我知道在民國92年的時候也有修法"},{"start":4397.572,"end":4419.582,"text":"所謂的92年的修法版本是說我們發生交通事故致人於死或重傷者後那汽車運輸業的營業車輛發生交通事故之後呢車輛的所有人利用辦理過戶等方式行脫產之時所以影響後續受害人權益那在為了避免他們"},{"start":4421.123,"end":4448.224,"text":"所以受害者本人或其配偶親屬及申請可以提出申請暫不予以核准屬該業者登記名義全部或部分車輛過戶也就是說過去我們歷年來發生了很多的重大的交通意外事故有關營業車輛不管是遊覽車或是砂石車有時候他們因為是自有或是挖行"},{"start":4449.925,"end":4454.047,"text":"發生了重大的交通意外事故之後自然於死或重傷者那常常屢見發生就是行脫產之時那讓這個受害者配偶或家屬他沒有辦法得到應有的一個賠償"},{"start":4466.932,"end":4486.174,"text":"就已經身體不管是往生或是受重傷就很難過了但是我們在後續的協調裡面發生會損及受害人自身或家屬配偶的權益所以我在公路法第46條把它修為今天希望各個委員能夠支持的版本"},{"start":4486.835,"end":4514.435,"text":"希望把這個主管機關的被動申請方式調整修正為主動告知受害者本人或其配偶親屬也就是說如果一旦這個營業車輛發生了所謂的重大的交通事故致人於死或重傷者那我們交通部現行的公路主管機關應該要主動的來告知這個事件裡面受害者本人或其配偶親屬"},{"start":4515.776,"end":4528.989,"text":"來保障受害者人的法定權益也確保後續的賠償可以順利以及公道得以伸張第二個是公路法第60條之一也是在維護民眾的權益現行公路主管機關在修建或維護"},{"start":4539.039,"end":4568.306,"text":"公路及設施的安全需要巡查檢測的時候那目前的法定是得派員進入公司有土地內但是呢我們曾經在屢次的這個民眾的陳情裡面發現喔很多次的這個公路的相關單位要巡檢或者是檢測的時候進入了這個私人的土地的時候並沒有獲得地主的許可跟同意所以經常發生爭議所以我們提案修正是希望呢"},{"start":4569.106,"end":4574.073,"text":"能夠參考相關的行政程序法、民事訴訟法等等我們希望能夠要求有巡查或是檢測需求的單位必須以文書交郵務機構來掛號來送達"},{"start":4586.829,"end":4606.364,"text":"那我希望這樣子是可以保障雙方的一個權益既保障私有土地地主民眾的相關法定權益也能夠保障巡檢單位跟人員不因爭議而有可能受訴訟之災所以以上兩條法案的修法請各位支持"},{"start":4608.171,"end":4611.837,"text":"謝謝何欣淳委員現在接下來台灣民眾黨黨團提案由張祺凱委員說明"},{"start":4628.317,"end":4648.465,"text":"我來幫主席林國成林委員代表這個台灣民眾黨的提案做說明第一個在這個公路法修法部分我們因應超高齡社會保障銀髮族這個潛意識部分黨派的大家都知道今年我們就正式邁入超高齡社會了可是呢"},{"start":4650.166,"end":4674.161,"text":"我們的這個政府推出通用無障礙計程車這個服務啊受限於現有這個規定說計程車的這個車牌這個數量啊牌照這個數量是有限制的所以我們去做了一個統計到今年的三月份三月底啊全國通用計程車只有1324輛而且都集中在六都"},{"start":4675.475,"end":4703.067,"text":"六都以外九成的縣市一輛都沒有不只喪失了美意而且加劇我們偏鄉長者交通的落差所以我們台灣民眾黨經過研究發現目前公路法第39條之一第二項本來就有將優良駕駛申請個人牌照的排除在計程車牌照限制的之外因此為了確保年長者的出行自由並且平衡"},{"start":4703.667,"end":4731.19,"text":"六都以外縣市跟這個偏鄉高齡者的這個交通的這個落差台灣民眾黨提出我們要修正公路法的第39條之一第二項放寬有關通用計程車的不受現有計程車牌照的這個發放的這個限制希望放寬以後可以照顧我們這個長輩而且平衡各個縣市也照顧到偏鄉另外在停車場的這個修法部分我們發現"},{"start":4732.971,"end":4761.296,"text":"2050年淨零碳排這個目的推動的狀況之下交通部最近很積極在推廣電動車跟公共充電樁的這個設備那未來這個充電樁這個數量勢必一定是會再增加的可是最近有部分這個醫院又發生了這個電動汽車的那個起火那個原因現在政府又頒布了這個禁令規定說電動車不得放在地下停車場可是你去追根究底"},{"start":4762.176,"end":4778.269,"text":"他為什麼這個電動車有時候發生這個問題沒辦法去撲滅民眾這位電動車也有很多很多的餘力那政府要做的應該反而是去解決問題所以我們台灣民眾黨主張我們修正停車場法第38條把停車場內的公共"},{"start":4784.013,"end":4807.167,"text":"公共電動車這個車窗的這個設置還有修正這個責任要把它明確化只要我們做到這一塊就可以化解民眾的這個餘力而且降低公共安全發生的這個危險性也保障人民生命安全的這個生命安全同時可以確保這個環保永續的這個世代世代之間就這個目的所以我們要要求趕快修正停車場法第38條謝謝"},{"start":4812.865,"end":4822.772,"text":"好謝謝張祺凱委員好現在請機關代表報告現在我們請交通部政務次長陳彥博次長來報告"},{"start":4835.633,"end":4853.488,"text":"主席各位委員大家好今天應邀列席貴委員會就相關委員應該是審查這個台灣民眾黨黨團林委員俊憲陳委員冠廷徐委員富奎馬委員文君邱委員若華何委員辛存王"},{"start":4854.068,"end":4880.286,"text":"委員翊川等相關委員拟據的這個公路法修正草案共10案那另外台灣民眾黨團林委員俊憲、委員仙翔等相關委員拟據停車場法修正草案共3條那我們來提出本部的處理意見來敬請各位指教那首先就公路法的部分有關這個林委員俊憲等提案修正第27條28條第75條建議修正汽車"},{"start":4884.128,"end":4895.078,"text":"燃料使用費的名稱與納入非使用燃料車輛的徵收費率由交通部會同財政部定之及建議修正第72條增業管線機構設置之人手孔蓋與路面齊平標準與罰則"},{"start":4901.343,"end":4922.361,"text":"那陳委員 冠廷 徐委員 傅奎等提案修正第32條建議增列公路景觀工程應以原生樹種為優先何委員 新淳等提案修正第60條之一建議增訂公路主管機關為修建或維護公路派員進入公私立土地應以雙括號通知送達"},{"start":4923.001,"end":4935.535,"text":"本部競表同意並尊重這個委員會審查的一個結果那第二個呢是有關陳委員冠廷等提案修正第33條增列建議增訂公路設計相關規範應該落實符合"},{"start":4939.739,"end":4954.264,"text":"符合通行車種的軌跡驗證那考量現有的公路相關規範也有類似的一個規定所以我們建議是不是可以維持現行的一個條文那第三部分是有關台灣民眾黨團及馬委"},{"start":4958.012,"end":4973.072,"text":"馬偉文軍區委員洛華等提案修正第39條之一建議通用計程車不受現有計程車牌照發放的一個限制那考量各公路主管機關以可依據行政區考量現行的這個"},{"start":4975.695,"end":4998.954,"text":"已經可以橫著相關的供需來決定是否增發牌照那業者呢亦可以透過跨行政區過戶的一個機制來調控號牌的一個需求所以呢何委員心存提案的第46條然後另外何委員心存提案的第46條建議由公路主管機關主動通知交通事故受害者方申請"},{"start":5002.057,"end":5019.732,"text":"受害者方申請汽車運輸業暫不予以過戶繳銷那考量主動通知的作業有其不確定性卻現行實務作業也以是用這種方式在做處理那另外王委員逸川提案修正第65條建議增訂公共運輸業者"},{"start":5023.215,"end":5045.835,"text":"強制投保第三人責任保險考量該保險屬公司治理的風險分攤的範疇建議業者基於經理官吏需求來投保所以上述的這些條文我們建議是不是能夠維持現行的條文有關停車場法的部分就這個相關委員提案"},{"start":5048.846,"end":5069.16,"text":"所提出來的提案呢是針對是因為配合公路法同步修正的汽車燃料使用費這一部分我們贊同並建議著作文字的修正那另外修正條文第32條第38條的修正案考量現行相關法規針對電動汽車停放於電動汽車專用停車"},{"start":5074.064,"end":5092.717,"text":"電動汽車充電專用停車位為充電的一個情形然後電動汽車充電專用停車位設置的比例或者是充電設備設置皆有對應的一個處理的一個方式所以本部也建議是否可以維持現行的條文那以上我請就"},{"start":5093.918,"end":5121.993,"text":"委員所提出來的相關的意見摘要的做一些說明那接下來呢我就請我們的部裡頭公共運輸司公共運輸及監理司的林司長跟陸正道安司的黃司長分別就公路法的修正跟停車法的修正來向各委員做進一步詳細的說明那再次的感謝各位人的關心及指教謝謝好謝謝我們陳政事那個兩位兩位司長稍等一下因為剛剛啊"},{"start":5123.174,"end":5136.773,"text":"我們廖先祥委員有停車場罰的32條他還沒有提案說明 容許他先來說明那這點跟廖委員抱歉 沒有注意到 謝謝"},{"start":5144.853,"end":5152.721,"text":"好 謝謝主席在停車場法裡面有規定有幾種樣態是有專屬車格的嘛一個是身心障礙一個是孕婦及六歲以下兒童那就是近幾年因應電動車的心情有一個電動車專用充電的一個車格但前面兩者的它是一個資格就是說如果說我們有這個相關排面的話我們就可以去停但是停車場"},{"start":5167.935,"end":5172.32,"text":"電動車的樣態有點不一樣他不是資格我們就我們的規定他必須要充電適時他才能停並不是說我的電動車就可以停在充電車格那所以說依照我們現在的法令就算是電動車停在充電車格他沒有充電他一樣是有相關的罰則是去可以做懲處那這個跟前面兩則是不太一樣的那他"},{"start":5190.459,"end":5198.523,"text":"既然是一個狀態的話也代表說他的這個車格有一個不可替代性也就是說如果說我們是一個六歲以下孩童或者是孕婦的話我們畫這個車格可能就是給他方便鄰近出入口讓他行走距離更短但是實際上他就算沒有停在這些車格他停在其他車格他一樣還是可以停"},{"start":5210.609,"end":5219.477,"text":"或者是身心障礙車格當然身心障礙車格有一些他需要比較寬的空間他必須要在身心障礙車格停那有一些其他車格或許他也是能夠上下車但是針對電動車主來講的話如果說他要充電的話他唯一的選擇就是在充電車格而已其他的一般的車格他是沒有辦法他是沒有辦法"},{"start":5228.164,"end":5241.6,"text":"它可以停放但它就沒有辦法充電它沒有辦法有充電的一個狀態所以說它是有一個不可替代性前面兩者它是有替代性的充電的車格它是有不可替代性的那既然它是有不可替代性的話所以說我們的法規才有規定有修過法就是必須要有充電狀態的話"},{"start":5246.946,"end":5252.448,"text":"那才能夠符合使用的一個有充電動態才能夠使用嘛並不是電動車就可以停所以這次我才提出這個法令的修改就是除了既有的罰則之外我們也要求停車場業者針對沒有充電的一個車輛停放的話必須可能他要通報或者是"},{"start":5265.934,"end":5276.14,"text":"有一致的權利通報警方一致的權利那充電有沒有在充電狀態這個我看過業務單位的提案說明有時候他確實有一些夜間的問題你說現在的電動車的電池容量或許他可能充到半夜就滿了那如果說你真的馬上叫他一致確實有點不符合人情或者是這個"},{"start":5290.347,"end":5312.878,"text":"你有時候不一定是車主的問題有時候是電動充電狀態的問題有時候或者是我們很難去判斷他的狀態是不是充飽電了有時候這個每一個人每一家的這個設備不一樣或者是設備有沒有故障怎麼樣他有時候很難釐清所以說當然我不是說我的法案不一定說一定要按照我的條文來修改但是至少至少我們停在充電車格如果沒有"},{"start":5313.618,"end":5335.417,"text":"把充電線連接到車子這樣子的一個樣態的話他連充電的動機都沒有的話那我希望他有一個更為強烈的一個處置的方式來給業者或者是執法機關以上 謝謝謝謝廖先祥委員的提案說明那現在是請兩位市長那個林林二三市長"},{"start":5344.174,"end":5360.99,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天應邀列席各位委員會就委員會審查臺灣民眾黨團及林委員俊憲陳委員冠廷 徐委員富奎 馬委員文君邱委員若髮 何委員辛存 王委員逸川等相關委員凝聚公務法第27條 第28條 第32條 第33條 第39條之一"},{"start":5366.275,"end":5382.611,"text":"第46條第60條之一第65條第72條第75條等共10項修正提案提出交通部處理建議供貴委員會這個產產那首先有關於林委員郡縣提案修正公路法第27條第28條第75條修正汽車燃料使用費名稱"},{"start":5387.575,"end":5410.622,"text":"及納入非使用燃料車輛資徵收費率由交通部令匯商財政部訂資那針對這個部分有關於既然汽車燃料使用費的名稱那委員提案建議修正為公路養護修建及安全管理費基於公路法第27條徵收目的本部建議可考量修正為公路使用養護管理費"},{"start":5412.915,"end":5439.667,"text":"那另外有關於委員提案因應新能源車輛發展趨勢未來均應徵收原新增第三項非使用燃料車輛之費率由交通部會商財政部訂定之那這個部分跟這個交通部已經請運輸研究所通盤檢討汽車燃料使用費徵收及分配辦法的規範方向一致那本部尊重貴委員會審查的一個結果"},{"start":5440.367,"end":5462.777,"text":"那有關城務委員冠廷徐委員富奎等提案修正公路法第32條建議陣列行道樹花木植栽工程應以原生樹種為優先政府頒布的公路景觀設計規範已有規定新植設計選種已以原生或鄉土樹種為主並減少外來"},{"start":5465.718,"end":5487.354,"text":"陸清總與委員提案內容相同那另外在水土保持部分也已經納入公路排水技術規範中執行故委員提案修正內容與現行公路相關規範方向一致本部尊重貴委員會審查結果陳委員冠廷提案修正公路法第33條建議增訂公路設計相關規範應落實符合通行車種之軌跡驗證"},{"start":5493.98,"end":5517.054,"text":"交通部公路設計路線規範第一章有關設計車種與最小轉向軌跡中已將各設計車種與其最小轉向軌跡分轉向角度數值各有不同在路線設計時都需要依照此規定進行路口轉彎半徑檢核那實質已經涵蓋委員提案的意旨"},{"start":5517.975,"end":5533.925,"text":"另外考量第三十三條是寒瓜設計施工養護全生命階段並非單就路線設計部分且相應的規範以要求軌跡驗證檢核所以這一條的部分也建議維持現行條文"},{"start":5535.726,"end":5564.745,"text":"有關台灣民眾黨團馬委員文君 邱委員洛華等提案修正公務法第39條之一建議通用計程車不受現有計程車牌照發放原則限制那依據39條之一第一項規定計程車牌照是依據地方人口及使用道路面積成長比例來發放各公務主管機關本可依全者省著轄管的地區人口成長及交通運輸供需情形決定是否增發"},{"start":5567.547,"end":5590.395,"text":"目前在通用計程車是由車隊招募有意願服務的駕駛來參與是依照既有制度透過車行或合作社辦理車輛領排並未受限那如果僅針對通用計程車方寬限行牌照發放這個原則恐將衍生計程車數量過度成長造成計程車市場供過於求"},{"start":5591.255,"end":5617.634,"text":"那為立計程車牌照數量的一個調控那交通部也在108年10月1號修正汽車運輸管理規則不同縣市計程車業者可透過兩地計程車公會報監雙方公路主管機關同意後可進行跨行政區域過戶那目前已經有台中市彰化縣新竹縣市等8個縣市透過機制互相調供計程車的車耳調配所以建議維持現行的條文"},{"start":5619.355,"end":5630.142,"text":"有關何委員心存等提案修正公務法第46條第60條之一建議將交通事故受害者方申請汽車運輸業車輛暫不予過戶繳銷調整為公務主管機關主動通知與增訂公務主管機關"},{"start":5635.985,"end":5650.747,"text":"未修建或養護公路及其設施安全派員進入公司有土地內應將送達文書以雙括號發送那在有關於46條部分現行規定公路主管機關得應受害"},{"start":5651.508,"end":5665.561,"text":"者本能或其配偶親屬檢據警察機關相關證明文件之申請至交通事故發生日期兩個月內暫不予核准該業者登記名義全部或部分車輛過戶繳銷牌照"},{"start":5667.563,"end":5684.358,"text":"那如果改由公務建立機關主動告知受害者本人或其配偶親屬需於兩個月內取得相關應通知人之聯繫這一個方式若在此期間內無法取得聯繫不上"},{"start":5686.319,"end":5714.439,"text":"或應通知人這個有所遺漏等都將損及這個家屬的權益所以建議這條修正可能必須再做一個酌量那另外一個部分的話其實現行實務上公務監理機關如果與發生這個交通事故之後如果知道這個受害者或其配偶親屬之聯繫方式均會主動告知即可依本條規定來申請這個禁止過誤或繳交牌照以立後續的一個這個球場"},{"start":5715.62,"end":5737.527,"text":"那考量這個主動告知作業有其不確定性為這個避免行政機關與受害者後面衍生相關責任的一個這個正義本條建議維持現行條文那有關60條之一的部分本次委員提案修正公路主管機關因修建養護需要進入公私有土地之通知規定系參照行政程序法"},{"start":5737.987,"end":5754.649,"text":"民事訴訟法及行政訴訟法相關規定尚無自愛難省之處本部尊重委員會審查的一個結果有關王偉仁一川提案修正公務法第65條建議增訂公共運輸業者強制投保第三能責任刑部分"},{"start":5755.35,"end":5778.458,"text":"有關第三人責任險主要是針對被保險人因這個保險人也就是這個客運業者因所有這個汽車發生交通事故至第三人死亡體傷或財務這個受損害時依法應付賠償責任而受賠償請求時有保險公司對保險人負擔賠償之責"},{"start":5779.938,"end":5802.925,"text":"而現行公務法以規範客運業者應投保汽車承認強制責任保險及這個旅客責任險至於現行屬物屬於財務損害賠償及任意險之第三人責任險部分較屬公司治理之風險分擔範疇建議可由業者基於經營管理需求投保任意第三人責任險來分擔風險原本條也建議維持現行條文那"},{"start":5808.787,"end":5825.514,"text":"最後有關於林委員進縣等提案修正公路法第72條建議增列管縣機構設置之能鎖孔蓋與路面齊平標準與法則明定施工機關構有回覆挖掘路面平整責任"},{"start":5826.674,"end":5846.636,"text":"並要求管縣機構應主動維護深挖路面之設施經查本次委員提案修正的條文之前在109年12月7日交通委員會會議有審查這一個通過那上涉及這個管縣機構需配合辦理的一個這個事項"},{"start":5847.757,"end":5867.092,"text":"那針對這一條本部尊重委員會審查的一個結果那中上說明僅針對委員相關提案僅提供本部處理建議意見敬請各位委員參考 謝謝好 謝謝林市長那現在黃應貴市長時間掌控一下好不好"},{"start":5874.461,"end":5889.096,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 各位先生請就相關委員黨團提案修正重點及本部的建議處理意見做說明有關林委員 俊憲等提案修正停車場法第四條建議將第一項"},{"start":5889.997,"end":5903.795,"text":"第三款汽車燃料使用費更名為公路養父修建及安全管理費我們會配合公路法審議的結果同步做修正有關廖委員先詳等提案修正停車場法第32條增列電動汽車以電動汽車充電裝"},{"start":5908.1,"end":5908.12,"text":"電動汽車專業"},{"start":5925.001,"end":5929.225,"text":"充電專用停車位是充電專用之性質故電動汽車停放於電動汽車充電專用停車位為充電者本級屬違規占用之行為現行停車長法第32條及第4條之一已有針對違規占用電動汽車"},{"start":5943.959,"end":5967.17,"text":"充電專用停車位之情形定有罰則另考量實務上駕駛人較難以充電完成後立即將車輛駛離電動汽車充電專用停車位及其充電設施設置管理辦法第九條第一項亦授權地方主管機關公告電動汽車充電專用停車位使用規定及充電"},{"start":5968.33,"end":5989.715,"text":"停車使用時間的限制避免充電專用停車位遭長時間佔用並兼顧實務充電專用停車位的使用彈性中上本部建議維持現行條文有關台灣民眾黨黨團提案修正停車場法第38條建議甄列違反第27條之一電動汽車充電專用停車位設置比例與充電設備設置之規定"},{"start":5995.536,"end":5998.438,"text":"有關電動汽車充電專用停車位設置比例相關的處罰部分經查充電車位辦法第4條定有"},{"start":6018.208,"end":6031.726,"text":"路外公共停車場電動汽車充電專用停車位之設置期限因此當停車場經營業未依規定期限設置完成地方主管機關得不已和換發停車場登記證"},{"start":6035.307,"end":6048.441,"text":"充電車位辦法第五條規定電動汽車充電專用停車位充電設施之設備介面及配件均應符合國家標準其設置應依電業法電氣承攬業管理規則用戶用電設備裝置規則各類場所消防安全設備設置標準等相關規定辦理說明如下"},{"start":6058.951,"end":6077.096,"text":"電動車輛充電設施經公告為應實施檢驗商品範圍者應依商品檢驗法相關規定辦理商品檢驗使得裝置已使用若屬志願性產品驗證者台電公司已於新增設用戶用電設備檢驗要點中規定新增設電動車輛充電設備裝設完略後亦需檢附經濟部標準檢驗局志願性產品驗證證書"},{"start":6089.28,"end":6107.306,"text":"現場檢驗不合格者未以期限內完成改善,得停止供電或拒絕接電。應定義法第32條、消防法第6條及第37條等規定,已有針對停車場設置充電設施之用電及消防安全,定有相關的罰則及處置方式。"},{"start":6108.326,"end":6126.761,"text":"行車場經營業躺位旅行前階充電車位辦法明定應遵行之事項地方主管機關亦得依行政執行法第30條第31條規定處新台幣5000元以上30萬元以下之貸金並得連續處以貸金中上考量有關"},{"start":6127.681,"end":6144.02,"text":"電動汽車充電專用停車位設置比例與充電被設置之規定皆有對應之處置方式本部建議維持現行條文中上說明針對相關委員及黨團之提案僅提供本部建議處理意見敬請各委員參採謝謝"},{"start":6147.831,"end":6162.848,"text":"謝謝黃師長其他機關所送的書面報告列入記錄刊登公報現在我們進行詢打先宣告以上事項詢打時間初席委員6分鐘 內席委員4分鐘"},{"start":6167.031,"end":6193.157,"text":"委員登記花園時間10點30分截止各委員如果有臨時提案請以10點半前提出以便藝術人員會診暫時暫定11點11點休息10分鐘中午原則性不休息現在請登記第一位的洪孟楷委員花園"},{"start":6200.95,"end":6219.309,"text":"好 主席謝謝 麻煩請我們次長好 陳次長好 陳次長委員好幾個交通專業的部分也是國人所關心的政策的轉彎我想也要跟你再就教一下 來"},{"start":6220.874,"end":6233.821,"text":"去年我們就一直在討論是說我們客運業相關的駕駛能力短缺的部分而當時國發會說召集相關單位有講出一個是能夠開放僑生畢業僑生來擔任"},{"start":6236.127,"end":6264.802,"text":"我們的客運駕駛對不對也已經從去年9月30號今年的專案報告甚至專案報告當時在交通委員會本席也有質詢過有提到說會有配套會有跟跨部會溝通並且要求我們安全包括語言能力考證照不會放水等等都有講籌備了快一年時間嘛結果突然間本來預告說4月底要上路然後結果說"},{"start":6266.332,"end":6294.03,"text":"臨時喊咖對 我也就我們的了解是因為講得還那麼理所當然不是 就是不是喊咖啦就是說我們的了解是預告的時候就是我們相關法案在政策在施作的時候都會有相關的法令的預告那預告期間呢因為各界有不同的建議的意見各界的不同建議的聲音不是應該是去年9月30號你們提出來的時候市長"},{"start":6294.91,"end":6316.791,"text":"因為之前有部長也有來答詢過也有我們相關部會的同仁來答詢過當時本席也針對這樣的一個問題來請教本席那時候講的是說什麼是說即便是開放但是我們很多國內的大型車駕照的人數其實比駕駛人還要多換言之並不是說沒有人去考駕照"},{"start":6317.352,"end":6335.685,"text":"而是大家不一定願意拿到駕照的時候去當駕駛那時候你們提出來的解方是說沒關係我們開放畢業僑生講了一年耶而且那個時候煞有其事又講是說語言能力考證照不會放水然後還要有一年的配套跨部會都溝通好了結果現在突然喊咖"},{"start":6336.738,"end":6349.813,"text":"那這樣不就是過去這一年的時間客運業大概也在等是說可以有新的活水進來結果完全沒有來 我就這樣請教是就喊咖了還是後續會推動還是有什麼配套措施"},{"start":6351.485,"end":6372.987,"text":"我跟委員報告後續不是喊卡啦就是後續我們因為有相關的配套措施所以公路局會跟客運全聯會等等在就相關的議題我看到的新聞講是說勞動部那邊因為修法預告然後所以說就是有疑慮暫停有沒有跟我們公路局溝通"},{"start":6374.088,"end":6402.643,"text":"有 勞動部因為他預告的時候代表說之前交通部推出這個相關法例的時候沒有先跟勞動部溝通好跟我有報告因為法規預告是收集社會各界的意見所以社會各界的意見就是說大家提出來以後是送到預告法規的這個主管機關勞動部那勞動部就是說因為有提出來就是社會各界有一些提到就是他擔任這個客運或貨運的駕駛的話在語言上面是不是還有一些其他的一個"},{"start":6403.203,"end":6425.658,"text":"你要不要看一下我們半年前專案報告時候我們好幾個委員關心就關心到這一題嘛大家都認為是說語言可能會有問題結果你們專案報告裡面講都沒有你們專案報告裡面特別講語言能力一定會要求結果現在反而用這個來當理由我覺得這樣子是很噁心耶"},{"start":6429.011,"end":6443.539,"text":"來市長再說明一下是語言的能力是很重要所以他們當然很重要啊現在他們會進一步的跟相關的客運業者如何落實把這樣的一個事情變成然後再招聘的再僱傭的時候不是來我們是不是簡單說明一下未來會怎麼做"},{"start":6448.752,"end":6452.436,"text":"目前科育業者未來聘僱僑外生擔任駕駛本來僑外生在國內受教育是基本的語言能力未來我們對於相關擔任客運駕駛上面包括語言能力的一些基本門檻"},{"start":6473.036,"end":6487.503,"text":"或者是還有經過相關的這個業者的一個訓練這個部分我們會跟科業業者再來討論然後訂定相關的一個配套措施再送給勞動部局長現在是勞動部喊卡欸 局長不能說你們"},{"start":6489.521,"end":6508.613,"text":"這個重點非常重要停車場我等一下也會問但我說現在我看到的這一個部分其實是讓大家覺得是說你們政府完全沒有橫向聯繫講了大半年的政策結果突然間又喊咔會讓民眾無所適從也會讓客運業者覺得說莫名其妙你好像是朝三暮四"},{"start":6509.534,"end":6534.683,"text":"之前先跟大家講說有有有開放了然後結果突然間就喊卡這一些不都是應該是你們一開始推出政策的時候就應該考慮到又應該評估到的地方嗎勞動部有問題結果你現在這還講是說是要跟客運業者溝通今天是客運業者不想要開放嗎不是啊那怎麼會你們現在講是說要去跟客運業者溝通然後勞動部那邊怎麼解決市長是不是應該找勞動部兩個部會來討論"},{"start":6539.145,"end":6557.312,"text":"這一部分我們一定會跟勞動部來討論的照理講這個政策要上路前就應該也要討論 這邊也要討論只是法規預告了以後各界有不同的建議界以後市長我比較具體是不是一個月內交通部找勞動部針對這個部分看能夠怎麼樣補正修正"},{"start":6559.153,"end":6584.73,"text":"來 因為我看到部長的講法交通部陳部長的講法是說還是希望能夠開放是 是 這政策是我們是朝這個方向所以是不是應該要主動找勞動部溝通這沒問題 我們則由公務局跟勞動部來溝通幫個忙 真的政策不是倉促丟出來然後各自橫向聯繫完全沒有在這件事情上面我覺得橫向聯繫是非常糟糕的一件事來 再來"},{"start":6586.363,"end":6606.028,"text":"格勒子透光率我覺得這已經是討論很久了最近有講到說我們要調整格勒子的透光率但是居然講一個是說只管新車不管舊車那如果說大家新車領牌我領牌一個月之後我再去裝那算是新車還舊車"},{"start":6609.704,"end":6624.197,"text":"我買一個新車然後我現在都是沒有貼隔熱紙我一個月之後我跟業務講好一個月之後你再幫我裝我先給監理站看一下我沒有貼一個月後裝裝了之後我不管了"},{"start":6625.496,"end":6652.741,"text":"這樣不是做半套嗎我跟委員報告我們講的新車是說某一年開始的車輛不是不是你講不是剛才委員的意思是說那以前的車以前的車都不管我們以前的車輛我們會有相關的一個指引會把相關的一個但目前看起來你們在新聞上也好或是打詢上也好其實都沒有講到舊車的部分來幾個國家美國透光率要求各州不一樣從20幾%到80幾%"},{"start":6655.973,"end":6663.84,"text":"日本要求70%以上德國更是全面禁止前黨裝格勒子"},{"start":6665.052,"end":6693.442,"text":"換言之其實世界各國也都有看到是說前檔格勒子的部分有一些是駕駛的安全 視線有一些是外在看裡面譬如說像美國有一些州就認為是說他怕可能駕駛裡面看不清楚所以執法人員會比較擔心也因此他要求前檔的那個透光率一定到一定的比例那我們現在只有70%但是沒有任何的強制性甚至我們沒有做相關的一個儀器來做檢驗"},{"start":6694.656,"end":6697.272,"text":"那還有就是救車的部分 你都說只有指引"},{"start":6698.988,"end":6728.277,"text":"很多的民眾團體其實也認為是說我們站在不管是安全道路的安全行人的安全駕駛的安全都應該要入法或是規範市長您怎麼看我簡單跟委員說明一下有關那個隔熱紙的一個使用它當然跟安全是有關的所以公務局在相關的以往的研究也好那剛才委員也特別提到各國其實對隔熱紙的規定的這樣的一個標準其實也是不一"},{"start":6728.837,"end":6758.177,"text":"那考量整個我們國家的一個情形然後整個安全的一個重視的一個程度所以目前這個公務局他是還是有規範相關的一個前檔跟側檔的側窗的一個相關的透光率的一個標準那另外對於新車也好或者是使用的中的車輛也好現在都有相關的一個有好幾個委員已經有質詢過現在問題就是你們有規範但是沒有法則或沒有落實"},{"start":6759.397,"end":6781.822,"text":"這才是大家會認為是說你這樣子的規範是不一定規範會有用我們現在的相關的一個規範委員大家應該也了解我們大概六月的時候會有一個相關的一個指引會出來那明年開始呢會對新車剛才特別提到的新車的相關的要求那新車的要求以後他如果不符合相關的規定當然就會有相關的一個處罰這是"},{"start":6783.562,"end":6796.172,"text":"所以還是會有納入法規其實真的還是建議因為現在都還是在研擬階段對不對是六月會公告對不對所以說針對說台灣的交通是不是應該要更一體適用不管是新車舊車如果說相關的規範最後"},{"start":6800.094,"end":6819.802,"text":"不好意思一分鐘的部分我覺得說電動車這個停車場的部分我還是希望能夠來了解一下那當然跟我們今天相關的修法也有相關聯不過本席有看到另外一個民怨的部分來我們看一下停車場現在因為多元支付也有一點點混淆"},{"start":6821.118,"end":6848.116,"text":"一個是說他有這個停車場他採全電子化沒有現金那民眾說要進去停車結果出來之後反而他沒有相關的多元支付結果他變成是說要出來很麻煩那再來也有有些停車場是他明明是有多元支付但是壞掉了或說他就是一直顯示故障中所以他只能收現金那次長"},{"start":6851.567,"end":6877.942,"text":"我覺得停車的部分也是民眾每天幾乎都需要停車那我們有看到 當然可能我們交通部會長是說這個相關收費以及什麼可能會有其他的主管機關但是畢竟停車場中央主管機關是我們交通部那有沒有一個比較一致性的方式至少讓停車業者以及讓民眾能夠取得一個平衡在這樣的事情不要說發生說二則一然後讓民眾產生其他的民怨"},{"start":6879.119,"end":6885.065,"text":"有沒有看到這樣的狀況我想跟委員報告這分兩個其實這個支付從這一張來看我們其實是多多鼓勵這個停車場是要多元支付所以多元支付有包含各種支付的方式那這裡頭提到的是說原來是一個每億的多元支付因為機器故障然後產生某種方式沒辦法處理"},{"start":6902.222,"end":6920.4,"text":"所以這部分我想我們會跟澤成這個地方主管機關就加強這樣的一個督導還有這個相關的停車設施的一個妥善率我們現在的停車場管理辦法一分鐘停車場管理辦法裡面我們有沒有相關規定一定要有什麼樣的支付方式"},{"start":6921.261,"end":6939.299,"text":"目前是沒有 是所以說才會變成到這樣的情況因為我記得我國的法令有規定就是如果說我們用相關的這個新台幣支付你接收者不能拒絕譬如說有些時候有些民眾他拿一百個一塊要去付一百塊"},{"start":6940.08,"end":6968.915,"text":"但是接收者他也是要接收嘛對不對這個是現金的流通的一個我們互信原則跟一個公平信嘛那剛剛看到這兩個新聞其實這就是本席之前也有接收到民眾的一個陳情一個是他不能擠付現金只能用電子支付一個是只有付現金沒有電子支付那對我們中央組織機關裡面是不是能夠有更統一的辦法至少有一個支付方式是所有地方都可以使用的"},{"start":6971.494,"end":6995.954,"text":"以前大家可能會覺得是現金現金支付的方式我想是必然是基本的啦那委員剛剛特別提到的有很多尤其是人力的一個節省所以很多像這種收費方式是無人採用機器所以如何確保機器的這個正常使用我想這部分我們會請地方政府或者是如果說有一些是多元支付但是他至少"},{"start":6996.595,"end":6999.841,"text":"業者提供一個電話還是什麼能夠讓民眾在現場來協助做引導不要發聲上夜"},{"start":7005.1,"end":7028.892,"text":"不要發生就說車停進去但是車出不來的狀況我想這才是我們所關心的重點是這一部分我的了解很像這個都會有一個類似像按鈕或電話可以有一個人來通知服務那這部分如果沒有的話我想我們會也是一樣我們每一年大概都會停車場都有督導那在這部分的時候我們來加強要求加強落實好不好是是是謝謝是"},{"start":7030.702,"end":7035.329,"text":"好 謝謝洪孟愷委員現在請李坤澤委員執行"},{"start":7048.08,"end":7054.327,"text":"謝謝趙委 請一下陳彥博次長 陳文瑞局長 林福山市長 黃英貴市長 趙新華局長交通系統裡面最強的公路的五個人"},{"start":7067.213,"end":7084.26,"text":"好那個市長我們來討論一下有關於氣燃費相關的議題包括他的證明以及如何建立一個公平穩定的收費機制那目前氣燃費的收費的狀況當然是依照公路法第27條"},{"start":7085.521,"end":7111.995,"text":"就是公路的主管機關因為我們的道路公路必須要養護修建以及安全管理所以來徵收汽車燃料使用費那目前的徵收的方式現行的方式是隨車徵收就按照車輛的CC數每年徵收大概是500億左右那汽燃費的分配當然是中央地方還有國道基金那我們來看"},{"start":7113.175,"end":7135.336,"text":"棄燃費啊他的徵收以及分配的辦法第4條他有很多各款的車輛是免徵棄燃費包括電動汽車不過我們在這邊也要注意市長我們的電動車的比例是越來越高那我記得在2018年的時候我們的這個"},{"start":7137.765,"end":7142.434,"text":"油車大概是2155萬輛就汽機車加起來那時候的這個電動車大概20萬輛但到今年的3月"},{"start":7151.465,"end":7159.032,"text":"我們的相關的燃油汽車大概是2191萬輛但是從2018到2023年的3月我們的電動車已經從22萬輛20萬輛現在提升到88萬輛提升的比例已經看得出來"},{"start":7173.726,"end":7198.297,"text":"那我們棄燃費它使用的本質就是在於道路的養護修建跟安全管理那我們有三個重點我們討論棄燃費都是要以道路為主體那這三個重點就是說我們要確保這些養護修建管理的費用必須要充足而且徵收的對象是要以實際使用道路的路用車"},{"start":7199.497,"end":7216.961,"text":"第三 收費應該要具有公平性那我們現在來討論一下相關的不管是隨車徵收 水油徵收 或者是水里程徵收各有它的優缺點那我請教一下 我們現在目前是隨車徵收隨車徵收是按照CC數計算它的優點是什麼 來 次長說明一下"},{"start":7220.562,"end":7241.754,"text":"我想現行的一個制度其實是因為它比較雖然它是比較簡單的一個徵收的一個方式但是因為它強調吸吸術或是車種所以相關的一個民眾的認知上也比較容易能夠接受所以現在是採用這種方式在徵收它的優點應該就是它的這個"},{"start":7244.435,"end":7263.948,"text":"費用的來源比較穩定而且可以確保目前道路維護相關的管理的一個需求其實它的缺點是在於公平問題它不容易反映車輛實際使用道路的這樣一個狀況這是它的缺點所以吳征說你認為它的優點是什麼"},{"start":7266.119,"end":7289.504,"text":"水油徵收當然就是剛好就是剛才委員講到的水油徵收是用多少走在道路上使用多少油它就徵收多少但是這樣的一個方式它比較能反映這些車輛實際使用道路的狀況而且它的機械方式也比較簡單但它的缺點呢另外一塊就是有些是用油"},{"start":7290.684,"end":7314.725,"text":"不用入 像那個工業用油啦 或者是有些人是提這個桶子去加油 但是他加了油他可能是變成是小型的工程要用的所以像這種還有另外一個是徵收的上的 因為我們所有的用油像這種都是在當時就徵收了如果像剛才講的這個用油不用入的 那產生以後要退退這個錢 都會產生相關的一個困擾"},{"start":7315.365,"end":7326.713,"text":"當然水有真實化它是能夠反映這個實際道路的使用情形而且機會的處理方式也比較簡單不過它的缺點當然是現在車輛的技術提升"},{"start":7330.555,"end":7345.445,"text":"那燃油的效率其實也提升以及電動車輛的發展承諾我剛才講的2018年汽機車使用電力的大概只有20萬輛到今年的3月已經提升到88萬輛"},{"start":7346.986,"end":7368.27,"text":"那難有效率提升跟電動車這樣一個發展當然會導致這個收費會下降那可能這個裁員就會有問題是不是啊對 那隨著像我們現在有發現如果隨著電動車的一個繼續的一個使用如果也是採行現在免徵到了2030年大概會減徵的將近快36億元"},{"start":7372.011,"end":7377.939,"text":"好那現在大家社會大眾也在討論到是不是水里承徵收那水里承徵收你認為他的優點是什麼"},{"start":7380.174,"end":7402.688,"text":"水里程的徵收當然他就是反映在剛才講的公平性上大家走多少收多少他比較能夠實際反映出道路的使用狀況而且也避免這種電動車的這種趨勢所造成的影響而且能夠適應各種能源的這種車輛但是他的缺點是什麼"},{"start":7403.368,"end":7431.547,"text":"他缺點就是因為剛才特別提到就是說他要水里程偵測所以水里程如何來記錄這個里程這樣的一個技術呢可能就是他的技術其實就是有問題他的普及性以及篡改的問題那現在大概討論說以碼錶來登錄啦他有改錶的疑慮或是他沒有辦法有效的建立防避的機制或是OBD就是車上的診斷設備多數的舊車他沒有這樣的一個配備而且資料也可能被篡改"},{"start":7432.648,"end":7454.864,"text":"那OPU以及OPE就是車載單元跟車載機它設備的成員又比較高而且設備也有可能被拔除都是它相關的一個問題那我們來討論一下說我們交通部對於汽燃費到底有什麼具體的想法我先請教一下我們還是要把汽車燃料使用費"},{"start":7455.904,"end":7480.012,"text":"證明是這個道路養護費這個林俊憲委員跟我都有同樣的一個想法來你們說明一下我想委員所提出來希望證明他是道路的使用費或養護、修建的費用的這樣一個證明的修改這個汽車燃料使用費的這樣的一個建議或者是修法本部是支持的"},{"start":7480.952,"end":7505.919,"text":"當然我們在討論到這個棄燃費或者是這樣的一個道路維護的費用當然收費要公平而且它的相關的經費還是要充足它的費季要足夠另外就是負擔要合理這個為前提的那我們現在交通部針對相關的收費方式有沒有來做一個具體的一個討論我當然知道我們運營所"},{"start":7507.259,"end":7511.828,"text":"有做相關的研究這個醫院所研究要研究很久了要一年吧"},{"start":7513.079,"end":7537.27,"text":"來 次長說明一下對 運營所大概要研究大概一年到100 我的了解要到115年底那到什麼時候115年年底這個實在是非常的令人難以想像這樣的一個關係到民眾的以及道路的這種維護竟然要拖那麼久那我們相關的我們針對電動車它是一個趨勢的是"},{"start":7541.912,"end":7548.859,"text":"我也知道交通部有在討論嚴厲電動車的這個道路的維護費用也有計畫要徵收聽說是2030年有沒有這樣的一個想法來說明一下"},{"start":7557.388,"end":7584.123,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下剛才有特別提到氣燃費或是道路使用費其實就是從某個角度還是要公平那因為現在是近年轉型所以一開始的時候我們希望鼓勵電動車的一個使用但是隨著電動車剛才委員特別提到電動車數量越來越多的時候減增可能會影響到我們道路養護的經費所以政策上來講我們有規劃目前是規劃在2030年希望是不是可以延續來恢復來開增"},{"start":7586.704,"end":7595.404,"text":"我在交通委員會十幾年來大家都在討論相關七常會的這種徵收的方式交通部現在有沒有具體的一個想法來跟社會大眾來做一個說明"},{"start":7597.889,"end":7625.066,"text":"我想整個氣燃費徵收其實剛才委員特別提到他其實要考慮到幾個面向一個是公平一個是整個一個收費的整體的來源那另外一個是民眾能夠負擔所以這幾個問題那又隨著這個電動車的一個使用目前這個議題就是我剛才特別提到我們是委請運輸研究所就這幾個面向還是沒有明確的答案還是要等"},{"start":7626.206,"end":7655.004,"text":"因緣所相關的這個報告出來因為不管是剛剛委員特別提到現行來講隨車隨遊隨里程其實在近幾年來在交通委員會其實每一年大概都提都很多人在討論那討論為什麼到現在還是維持現在的隨車徵收其實也就是跟委員報告整個隨車徵收目前在世界很多的國家也是依舊在使用譬如說像新加坡日本或者是歐盟等等國家"},{"start":7655.444,"end":7673.547,"text":"日本也有不同的相關的地方他們實施不一樣的徵收方式也有但是多數來講還是多數地方還是採用這種方式所以這樣的一個方式如何改變我覺得我們還是要考慮到剛才三個名鄉共同來討論以後最後一分鐘我也最後一個小問題"},{"start":7675.049,"end":7694.317,"text":"那我們來討論一下國際電動車的這樣一個趨勢其實我們對於相關的安全規格以及相關的停車場相關的設施其實也帶來面臨新的挑戰那電動車起火撲滅的時間是傳統油車的七至八倍耗費的水量是傳統油車的四十倍"},{"start":7695.077,"end":7714.958,"text":"燃燒時它的溫度大約是800至1000度而且產生大量的有毒物質而且隨時都可能再次的復燃那我們來看相關的這些國際的這樣的一個統計跟我們消防署自己的統計消防署的統計"},{"start":7716.74,"end":7732.478,"text":"電動車自駕從2021年到2024年平均每年都超過60件有相關它起火的原因跟電動車主要起火的因素那這些在上面我就不再贅述那我們要確保安全的標準"},{"start":7733.739,"end":7752.528,"text":"電池的狀態剛才我們看到很多起火的狀態電池也是一個主要的原因那歐盟在2022年有新增規定他們以機械的這種進行物理的衝擊來證明、驗證電池的安全性他們要求撞擊之後不得起火"},{"start":7753.208,"end":7767.425,"text":"不得爆炸電池要維持在原來安裝的位置而且要目視檢查電解液是否有洩漏的這樣一個情形而且在高電壓的電池要符合相關的防護等級"},{"start":7768.206,"end":7782.864,"text":"那測試環境溫度條件之下觀察一小時要確認電池狀態的穩定性歐盟對這個要求是很嚴格的那我請問一下我們的做法是什麼我們有沒有參照歐盟的規範來說明一下"},{"start":7786.105,"end":7794.928,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告一下目前國內的車輛安全檢測基準是跟歐盟一樣是調和這個聯合國UNR100這個導進來我們有沒有將這種漏液還有膨脹的狀況也拉入這個定檢或是裝設這個感測器研議來裝設這些感測器"},{"start":7806.191,"end":7832.054,"text":"這部分我跟委員報告第一個部分新車這個完整的法規就如剛剛所報告的部分那這個使用中定期檢驗的部分那目前部裡面已經在這個111年把這個大型客車先這個拉進來就是定期檢驗的時候要去看這些要出去這個電池定期保養表這個部分那目前針對這個小客車的部分那公衛總局跟這個公衛目前在研議當中未來也會把他拉進來"},{"start":7832.614,"end":7854.363,"text":"我們必須相關的安全規格要比照歐盟來針對電動車的安全實施這樣的一個督促我們在停車場相關的消防設備也希望能夠跟消防署來討論是不是比照美國的相關的這個標準來做相關的設施那相關時間的關係我在跟我們交通部來做討論以上謝謝"},{"start":7856.624,"end":7874.789,"text":"好 謝謝委員謝謝李崑澤委員特別跟委員會報告陳雪生委員執行完畢休息十分鐘陳雪生委員執行完畢休息十分鐘現在請游皓委員執行"},{"start":7884.828,"end":7889.271,"text":"謝謝大委主席 謝謝趙偉那有請次長好 陳彥博次長委員好次長好那剛才其實委員都有在關心電動車的部分那在目前來講的話燃料稅有關於電動車來講現在是預計是可能會在2030的時候開始開車沒錯嗎"},{"start":7910.407,"end":7930.146,"text":"部裡頭朝這個方向來規劃那目前來講在電動車小客車的這個目前的普及率你看大約最新的數據是幾%目前那個電動車小小汽車啦大概是10萬輛左右10萬輛左右那目前原本預估在今年的話預計要達到多少比例"},{"start":7932.488,"end":7948.679,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下去年跟這個今年應該是10%啦那去年這個電動小客車的部分都有達標那我們一共今年應該也會達標那所以說今年預計的話年底要達到多少量"},{"start":7950.207,"end":7965.016,"text":"因為這個是相對這個新車試作比就是你賣出去新車然後佔一級的比例所以這個幾輛如果按照這個國內如果說一年這個新車大概這個四十幾萬輛的部分的話那今年我們是預計目標是四萬輛的這個電動小客車"},{"start":7968.085,"end":7983.06,"text":"因為去年都還達到3.8萬輛嘛所以幾乎也達到九成啦那沒關係 那直接就叫這個貨物稅八項減稅的這個部分啊那因為我們現在看到川普的這個高關稅的這個政策啊那所以大概是人心惶惶那對於國內車要購買這個電動車的這個意願啊"},{"start":7988.365,"end":8009.914,"text":"那大家其實也會擔心說在今年的年底啊那其實電動車免稅就要到期啊那這包括這個汽機車的太舊換新也是要在明年的1月7號就要到期啊那所以在針對這個忽罪的這兩項那我相信交通部一直以來也都有跟財政部都有研擬這個就是檢討方案要延長"},{"start":8010.834,"end":8029.605,"text":"那我想就這個機會來請教一下那這個延長的方案預計會這個免稅會再延長多久是3年還是5年這一部分我們就尊重財政部的一個規劃原則上我們是支持繼續延長那你們支持的話是大約方向上的話會是再多久"},{"start":8032.871,"end":8050.186,"text":"因為財政部每次他也是有一個規劃的一個期程所以原則上是依他規劃的期程來那所以說延長的話 方向上當然是延長是方向以這個方面沒有錯啦那期程的話有沒有覺得說預計的話會再多多少時間 延長多少"},{"start":8051.647,"end":8067.409,"text":"因為所有的這個尤其是電動車的一個推動或近鄰的轉型的推動都是滾動的檢討所以說這樣的一個走向是朝這個方向但是真正的騎乘還是要看這個每一個階段來定那會不會至少再延長三年"},{"start":8070.243,"end":8091.162,"text":"因為不可能交通部都沒有想法或是沒有建議方案啦原則上我們就是支持財政部的一個想法就等他們公布就是了好啦沒關係不勉強那最主要是說在目前電動車的這種普及率啊其實在包括在203年的這個淨零排碳的目標啊其實還是有很大的一個距離要努力啦"},{"start":8091.542,"end":8119.821,"text":"那所以說在這個貨物稅尤其是在川普他這個關稅政策的這個情況之下其實對於電動車大家使用或是包括未來的物價膨脹其實大家是人心惶惶所以說是建議啊那交通部也是具體的表達延長的態度之外更能夠及早的來跟社會各界來去做一個說明包括配合財政部能夠及早說明我相信這個對於市場的就是消費者他購買意願來講絕對是有正向的提升"},{"start":8121.502,"end":8150.355,"text":"還是提出建議那另外就是上次在1月8號的時候本席是有提到這個電動車的電動裝在許多的交通的相關機關他目前他的這個電動裝的一個數量那時候詢問過許多的單位那本席也看到了在就是高速公路的南投休息站那在這兩三個月大興土木他就有趕快來增加這個"},{"start":8151.996,"end":8178.179,"text":"電動裝跟停車的電動車的充電設備那我想直接請教一下局長那這個部分為我們南投縣的南投休息站提升或改善了多少報告委員南投服務區目前在做的是那個太陽能光電的部分那充電裝的部分都已經全國道都已經裝去年八月都已經完成了所以說這些包括太陽能關電包括那個上面遮雨的那個部分都一次完成嘛好"},{"start":8178.699,"end":8200.474,"text":"那就再次的感謝那同樣的那延續著剛才其實廖先祥委員他有提到這個充電樁的設備他就是會影響到大家停留的時間那目前來講的話其實在以目前的電動車跟充電樁的比例來講將近是30幾比1的這個情況之下其實在整體的這個充電樁的設備其實嚴重不足啊"},{"start":8200.734,"end":8221.609,"text":"那尤其是在大偶大廈的這種老舊的大廈其實在設一個充電樁其實是非常的困難那其實在許多的公共的設施公共的環境來講還是要積極的來提高這個充電樁的這個設施那才能夠改善不管是停留時間或是把整體大家使用電動車的意願那最後的話我本期來針對這個"},{"start":8223.911,"end":8248.406,"text":"交通部這邊南投幸福巴是2.0上路啊那之前本席跟許竹華許縣長這邊跟南投縣政府有爭取這個民間竹山鹿谷三個鄉鎮來做事辦那在中央公共運輸計畫專案補助經費來講那本席在這裡也在拜託交通部把後面我們在南投縣剩下的十個鄉鎮一樣來協助是不是可以"},{"start":8250.055,"end":8268.106,"text":"我想應該是可以有需要的話我想公務局大概都會協助好 那本席在這裡另外要再提出一下就是說因為像南投線的話有些它不一定是用巴士雖然部部共乘它是五巴士它有些巴士大概是五人坐的客車其他是屬於用計程車的業者"},{"start":8269.307,"end":8283.288,"text":"還來去協助來補充這個較為偏鄉的這種交通運輸可是在計程車的這個總量管制的部分在南投縣目前有這個計程車的這個車輛不足3%那所以說其實在南投縣要持續在推行這個鄉鎮的事辦"},{"start":8285.071,"end":8307.035,"text":"第一需要我們交通部在經費上面能夠持續的協助那第二也需要來協助南投縣政府在計程車業者輔導人能夠投入在這個運送我們偏鄉的長輩還能夠完成這個幸福巴士2.0的部分來在這個計程車車牌的這個申請上給予協助好謝謝我會來協助是好謝謝好謝謝游浩委員的執行現在請黃建豪委員執行"},{"start":8319.757,"end":8322.823,"text":"好謝謝主席我們先請這個交通部政事陳政事"},{"start":8328.224,"end":8343.747,"text":"委員好 市長好市長我們想先討論一下我想最近這個新聞上也看到說我們的關於無照駕駛的肇事案件其實它的實際上件數跟死亡數已經超越了9家案件了你看一下這個數字無照駕駛在2023年這個死亡人數是763人酒醉駕駛導致的死亡肇事人數253人所以換句話說國人或整個社會我們"},{"start":8351.249,"end":8377.301,"text":"當然長期很關注所謂酒駕的造成的這個事故但從數字上看起來其實無照駕駛導致的案件跟生命財產的損失遠遠高於這個酒醉駕駛那當然我們知道說在2023年4月的時候已經有修法加重在這個罰環的部分修法前是一萬二那修法後有加了兩萬四所以確實整個罰環有提高好但這個修法的結果如果從這個數據上看起來"},{"start":8379.702,"end":8395.39,"text":"修法之後他基本上他的死亡跟肇事人數並沒有明顯的下降跟沒有明顯的改善那原因當然在於說很多無照駕駛人他雙手一攤子我沒錢或是他未成年或等等的他就不繳了就算了所以他的事故持續在發生所以我要問交通部的意見是說"},{"start":8396.741,"end":8419.308,"text":"就像我們自己在處理假車牌問題一樣本期在立法院的時候也曾經建議過當然現在也往這個方向修法這個上個週三都通過了嘛在這個假車牌部分最後我們有個共識式可以這個沒入車輛那像這樣無照駕駛有沒有考慮過除了罰錢之外是不是也應該來研議這個沒入車輛的條件市長或是我們局長都可以回應"},{"start":8420.228,"end":8446.739,"text":"也是這個部分報告這個委員針對無照駕駛的這個部分的話那交通部大概也有你居一個這個加重處罰的版本那現在也就是行政院已經通過了那後面願不願意通過之後就會送來這個立法院做審議那目前這個版本加重的部分大概就是幾個重點第一個部分現行保管最高額這一個兩萬四比照危險駕駛提高到這三萬六那另外一個部分當場一致保管車輛然後並扣繳這一個"},{"start":8450.301,"end":8465.119,"text":"這一個牌照那針對這個車輛的部分的話大家對於這個就是說無照當然無照駕駛如果發生這個形式相關的一個傷亡等等部分的話那就是一個證據那個依照情報就可以去做處理那針對一般的那個部分的話大概就是說"},{"start":8466.52,"end":8485.688,"text":"調控這個車輛這個牌照那現行加重處分的一個規定的話針對初犯的部分原來有一個月這個提高到調控牌照這一個三個月五年內兩次的話由三個月提高到這個半年那五年內三次以上的話就是有六個月提高到"},{"start":8487.343,"end":8495.617,"text":"這個一年那其他未成年人的部分現行就有病處罰這個家長這些相關的一個規定以上大概這個跟局長跟市長說"},{"start":8497.284,"end":8517.682,"text":"就像我還是要講一下之前我們在處理假車牌的時候也常常使用這個吊扣牌照等等的手段但實際上就是因為吊扣牌照他就另外處理就好了嘛他還是可以上路啊他這個人這個他還是有工具可以去做這樣的事情同樣的無招駕駛也是一樣問題嘛你把他牌照吊扣了是針對這台車但他這個人他第一個他可能沒有錢繳罰款"},{"start":8518.763,"end":8535.218,"text":"那再來他同樣的可以去開別的車不管是跟朋友借的還是有些不孝車行租給他的等等的所以他還是會存在這個問題嘛所以我才問說在什麼樣條件下如果你們因為你剛剛提到的版本包含說你可能現在送行政院版本也都是在針對這個吊銬牌照在做處分可是如果"},{"start":8536.199,"end":8564.493,"text":"這個車子它本身還是存在的它並沒有嚴重的就對借它車輛的人也好或是它駕駛的這個車輛不管它自己持有或是它是別人的它在它的財產上它並沒有任何損失我們通過罰緩或通過其他方式是希望它有警惕的作用所以它可以去做它不要再無招下了不要再傷入了但是實際上你並沒有真正把它的作案的工具做這件事情的工具去處理當然我是覺得說這部分我不知道你們有沒有想過說真的"},{"start":8565.546,"end":8576.106,"text":"之前的案例我們超過那個假車牌的問題就是後來用末路車輛來處分那我不知道為什麼你們這個無招駕駛這部分不能去照這個方向來走問題會卡在哪裡"},{"start":8577.942,"end":8599.498,"text":"跟委員報告 其實要沒入車輛這件事情在這個不管是在法案討論的時候我相信各委員之間大概都是算是一個很高度要討論的一個事項因為你畢竟不是把車輛沒入 而且車輛沒入是可責性委員剛才特別提到 這是駕駛人的違規 無照駕駛那這是處罰人 這是讓沒入車"},{"start":8601.88,"end":8620.134,"text":"那之間如何連結然後如何讓他變成可責性這個所以我才會講到說在所有的處罰條例對於沒入車輛都是經過非常這個嚴謹然後大家共同的討論所以目前交通部所提出來在行政院的版本是沒有這個有關沒入車輛的部分"},{"start":8622.256,"end":8642.672,"text":"那所以當然我也有這樣的一個建議我們蠻尊重的如果有機會的時候我想可以在立法院的時候大家對你們再思考下來目錄車輛的部分因為像這個無照價值剛剛提到了在最近幾年每年造成死亡就是光是無照價值的死亡人數按照大家的統計大概就七八百位一年"},{"start":8644.316,"end":8663.532,"text":"所以你說調通牌照出去罰還其實看起來效果不差如果他還是能夠去做這樣的事情那我想這個部分死亡人數可能還是不會有明顯的下降這是我還是要提出來的建議那最後這段時間這個無照駕駛當然有一部分是青少年的部分那當然我現在考照的這年齡是18歲"},{"start":8664.813,"end":8685.809,"text":"那有沒有考慮過依照其他限定國家與其放任這些完全沒有駕駛概念的人上路那我們是不是有沒有考慮過把這個乾脆駕照年齡下修他可以駕駛某一種車輛或某種排氣量的等級的車子至少他在上路前他知道他有一個基本的交通法規或交通倫理嘛不知道交通部有沒有考慮過這個方向"},{"start":8688.902,"end":8707.562,"text":"這個部分我也跟委員報告一下大概就是說以往大家都在討論說先行考照18歲可否下降到16歲這個部分那其實這個部分的話部裡面從這個105年109年然後到111年大概都有跨部會甚至包括找家長團體大家來共同討論"},{"start":8708.263,"end":8724.467,"text":"那討論的一個結論是大家還是認為說還是要維持現行的部分那另外一點就是跟委員也報告因為現在的這個運居的分類包括現在有這個微型電動二輪車那14歲以上大概就可以其實我們這個是不需要駕駛執照的部分"},{"start":8724.927,"end":8746.718,"text":"那但是這個部分我們公共監獄機關也在著重這些相關駕駛安全教育的部分所以大家在講說有些學生等等的部分的話這個基本上大概也有這樣子的運氣可以做選擇那至於駕照連連那個部分的話可能必須要社會再做一個討論好沒關係你們目前比較保守啦但我還是建議說這個東西實際面上這些人他還是會開上路"},{"start":8747.847,"end":8777.073,"text":"我們實務上看到就是這個問題當然它是違法的只是說既然他還是會上路有這個問題高中很多人就無招駕駛跑在馬路上面的那為了解決這個問題或是說可以去思考到底怎麼樣的年齡去適合他有這個能力去做這樣的事情我就希望教安部在這個變相上面稍微積極一點好不好謝謝謝謝黃建豪委員執行現在請陳雪生委員執行陳雪生委員執行完畢休息十分鐘"},{"start":8782.165,"end":8787.948,"text":"好 謝謝主席 是不是請我們次長好 陳次長好 陳局長市長 局長早最近在討論那個我們那個人口啊人口修那個水啦 電啦 瓦斯啦齁 這個要下地嘛齁要規範嘛齁"},{"start":8812.928,"end":8833.082,"text":"這個案子已經行之有年了我想請問一下這個人口蓋全國大概有數量多少?這裡面有電、水、電、瓦斯什麼的?這個我要...對有一百多萬現在目前沒有這樣的一個數據有一百多萬處我覺得這個修讀法知識體大你強制規範說"},{"start":8842.915,"end":8860.61,"text":"人口蓋全部要下地對不對有特殊的,比如救災什麼需求這一些可以請求來處理問題是一百多萬戶的這一些人口蓋因為它會有氣爆的問題會有氣爆的問題因為這裡面沒有辦法揮發"},{"start":8871.025,"end":8893.555,"text":"會有公共的危險你們有沒有考慮這個問題我想跟委員報告就是說有關這個是不是所有要下地剛才委員特別提到我們不會去規定所有的要下地啦有些在什麼樣的情況下不是你的規範已經就這樣子啦這是相關委員的一個提案這是委員相關的一個提案你們交通部公路總經理都沒有意見嗎"},{"start":8895.856,"end":8920.587,"text":"我想請陳局長說明一下因為這個法已經在交通委員會討論了十幾年了十幾年了之前你們是有意見的這一次反常的我看沒什麼意見各位報告因為這個管線機構就是大概做的一些人孔蓋大概就是說在道路上面其實它有時候如果說修的不平整其實有時候比較容易就是說可能會有一些事故"},{"start":8921.067,"end":8946.104,"text":"所以現在大概就是說希望就是說人孔蓋挖了以後整條就是回填的包括這個人孔蓋跟回填的部分希望能夠跟道路齊平讓這個尤其是騎機車的能夠更安全 那平整那當然就是說 如果說它能夠下地的話是整個道路上面再重鋪的話其實它平整度就沒有問題所以有一些地方政府大概就是會有一些不是 我想問你有沒有考慮到氣爆的問題"},{"start":8949.286,"end":8977.747,"text":"因為底下不流通空氣不流通有電源電力公司有電源通過他大概就是說可以下地因為他大概我的了解因為目前並不是強制現在大概有一些地方政府就是說他會要求就是說如果你不常開啟或者是就是說有特殊需要的話其實是不要下地如果說你不常開啟的那其實把它下地之後整個道路其實它平整度也沒有就是說在回田的時候可能會有凹陷的問題"},{"start":8978.607,"end":9002.712,"text":"不是,你這個法的修是原則下地,例外不下地你應該顛倒過來你應該是原則不下地,例外的話下地應該是這樣啊你一百多萬出,我跟你講你這個維修一次的成本大概一萬塊錢一萬塊錢問題"},{"start":9006.041,"end":9021.289,"text":"你要挖洞路上水泥的鋪面還有平整挖的那個坑洞洞洞的更多你們有沒有考慮這個問題我覺得你們公路總局應該要表示意見不能不表示意見"},{"start":9023.68,"end":9043.912,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下,就是有關人手孔蓋要下地的這件事情當然牽涉到道路主管機關,或者是相關管線埋設的單位的意見這個原則上我們大概都會充分的尊重,尤其是地方主管機關你們有尊重嗎?是,充分尊重他們一切你們有徵詢過中華電力公司嗎?有徵詢過中華電力公司嗎?有徵詢過水業處嗎?沒有所以他們有提出來意見啊?"},{"start":9051.856,"end":9068.722,"text":"所以我們會在相關的裡頭請他們來表示相關的意見那最主要這個法案的提出是委員的提案啦所以原則上我們尊重這個委員會的一個討論啦我跟他討論過這個事情我也跟委員提案這個提案不是這一次在109年就出現而且在109年之前還更早也被提出來過他沒有很堅持"},{"start":9077.885,"end":9103.763,"text":"所以整個他沒有很堅持因為這個量體太大了他沒有很堅持而是你們公路總局這個案會診的時候我跟委員報告其實我們真的是尊重委員我們知道有這些各個面向的問題但是道路的平整度是要考慮的然後相關的維修的必要性也是要兼顧的所以相關的條款我也贊成我也支持我也同意"},{"start":9104.463,"end":9133.773,"text":"所以這個條文要如何來修,我們原則上尊重委員會的一個他提案委員的主要是這樣是不是尊重地方政府你把這個權限授權地方政府要協調哪一些下地哪一些不下地應該不下地為原則啦那麼有一些要下地的有沒有你在整個工程審查的時候地方政府他要負起主要責任這才是正本清源之道啊"},{"start":9134.929,"end":9144.544,"text":"而不是說你們交通部公路總局你就尊重委員的意見,你把這個法定下去你定下去以後有一百多萬處委,我看你們怎麼處理"},{"start":9145.646,"end":9171.552,"text":"不可能嘛你只有逐年的去實施啦我跟委員報告一下或許是但是這個現在的修正的條文我稍微念一下它是公路主管機關有必要是得它還不是因是得要求下地但是如果管縣單位認為有特殊需求是可以免下地所以這也是符合剛才委員的意見是以地方主管機關來我是建議"},{"start":9173.732,"end":9199.366,"text":"這個法條修正的時候我們再聽聽大家的意見要地方政府也配合參與這個事情你起碼地方政府在審查的時候,你給他應該很大的權限因為道路主要還是地方政府在負責嘛你們怎麼可能管得那麼密密麻麻的,枝枝節節的管那麼多勒是不是有的有需要,有的沒需要你這裡是講說下地的時候"},{"start":9202.688,"end":9217.928,"text":"他的特殊性就是救災啦或是幹什麼等等啦,特殊原因可以不要下地但你這個本末顛倒啦,我是覺得你應該是你應該是原則上不下地啦"},{"start":9218.939,"end":9241.428,"text":"那麼下地的部分應該是特殊的需求應該把它顛倒過來沒有我跟之前委員有討論過這個事情有關這個條文怎麼修如果到時候進入組條要討論的時候我想我們再跟委員來討教我們協商會等的時候注意一下這個問題好不好我們尊重整個委員會討論的結果第四項跟第五項好不好好謝謝"},{"start":9244.282,"end":9258.26,"text":"好 謝謝陳雪生委員的執行休息時間更正魯明哲委員執行完畢休息五分鐘現在請魯明哲委員執行"},{"start":9270.069,"end":9272.089,"text":"好感謝主席呃有請我們呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃"},{"start":9290.871,"end":9314.736,"text":"這個首先啊因為你們兩位問你們兩位都公道了這個前面的公務總局的前局長現在公務局局長那這個問題事實上發生的時候網路在傳的時候我也打電話給我們現任的這個陳局長特別在談這個問題啊那那個情況你都知道嘛今年3月19號那個整個影片在傳嘛那當然他的這個"},{"start":9316.776,"end":9332.334,"text":"排氣管你覺得是不是原廠的或者檢查相關的一些問題那後面的情況在爭議的過程中我們的監理站的人員就說你去摸嘛這個就很燙你要去摸如果你可以放在上面20秒"},{"start":9334.656,"end":9351.325,"text":"20秒的話就算通過那我先問公務總局的這個陳彥博前局長好不好因為我感覺這蠻有歷史是不是你那個時代傳承下來的這個經驗經驗法則啊以前是有這樣規定嗎自己敢摸自己的排氣管那個20發動之後20秒然後就算過關"},{"start":9357.008,"end":9370.011,"text":"現在陳局長你說一下各位報告其實我們同仁就是排氣管不是這樣檢驗我們已經對於同仁就是說做了這個更嚴格的一些教育訓練還有就是說"},{"start":9372.032,"end":9399.71,"text":"他的執行的方式我想我們也這個通令所有的各監理機關來做相關的一些檢討那基本上因為排氣管他就是防止就是說他被就是說這個太燙所以被燙到所以大概相關的形式跟這一個比如他的一個原廠的一些規格的話其實能夠改變的形式環境部也有相關的規範所以其實看那個大概就是說有一些這個環境部規定的一些形式的話其實就可以"},{"start":9401.511,"end":9427.585,"text":"這我懂嘛但是你們人員是依法執法依法行政就很清楚有問題沒有過不需要吵架你知道嗎你用吵架我覺得這很奇怪弄完之後咧當影片出來對機關形象如何對他這個處理方法真的是很奇怪那你說這個假設有隔熱板是放在後面你要摸後面還摸前面在討論這個我覺得都不應該啊那到底有沒有車輪槍這件事啊"},{"start":9429.326,"end":9457.502,"text":"你們有配備這個測溫槍嗎沒有就簡單來講這個排氣管合不合格形式合不合格是不是要透過測溫槍來測因為它基本上形式合格的部分的話其實就是它的這個溫度的話其實是可以就是說是沒有問題的所以其實不用去摸或是不用去測這個溫度好那這個部分說都做好教育了是OK"},{"start":9458.402,"end":9472.862,"text":"那可是有一個問題就是我們叫做一翻網路就發覺同樣一位我們認真的監理站的夥伴在這前一個月2月24號就今年的2月24號也跟人家"},{"start":9473.959,"end":9497.473,"text":"跟一堆人在那邊吵啊 吵什麼 吵那個車牌啊右邊看到沒有 車牌 你看得很清楚吧 VLG然後 吵什麼車牌 V中間好像有一點有一些白色 是不是好像塗上去的好像為了讓大家看清楚 V 是不是有一些問題 然後"},{"start":9499.494,"end":9519.18,"text":"也在那邊吵我就覺得很奇怪因為相關的法令那個規定這個我就覺得有點奇怪你到底現在的一個情況是不是能夠達到不能夠辨識他的牌照人家的起心動念是說糟糕了不管刮到什麼我的V怕別人認不出來是讓"},{"start":9520.74,"end":9535.707,"text":"合法的牌照讓人家辨識更清楚假設我是黑色的是有點斷 被磨掉了我用黑色的鉛筆讓這個V呈現得更好這個有什麼好吵的啊那個局長你知不知道這件事"},{"start":9537.464,"end":9565.067,"text":"還是現在才聽說就是就是牌照的部分基本上就是說當然要辨識啦那所以就是說他如果說這個沒辦法辨識的話大概同仁都會覺得說那可能是不是就是可以就是來做一個換一下這個牌照這樣子那所以好啦現在就是辨識的很清楚他要看中間這個字好像有一點白色是不是有奇異比的內容好像我不知道你們SOP什麼我真的不知道"},{"start":9565.808,"end":9586.216,"text":"我真的如果說每一個做事情你對的也不要吵架可是你也不要去刻意去找人家的麻煩沒有影響到執法沒有影響到監理的公平的一個性質我覺得你要這個SOP但我真的建議你同樣一個人發生多次這麼認真的一個情況"},{"start":9587.696,"end":9602.404,"text":"你去思考一下 是不適合他以這麼精細的態度是不是適合比較內情是不是不要接觸人不然到最後徒增很多的一些問題那我想要跟你說"},{"start":9603.993,"end":9611.72,"text":"摸排氣管這件事情啊我那天在打電話給你 今年度的時候我感覺你好像沒聽過這件事情結果我一去查我真的嚇一跳這個兩年多啊快三年了 111年12月7號這也是媒體披露的啊就說那不是這個人了是在士林間裡站的也是叫人家摸啊那時候"},{"start":9626.352,"end":9642.924,"text":"環境部的新法規還沒出來喔舊法規的時候你們一樣叫人家 叫他證明不燙所以兩年多之前你們的檢討報告也出來了說讓民眾手觸摸排氣管 測量溫度 確有不妥我要加強專業訓練避免再次情況情況再次發生 就再發生了"},{"start":9651.141,"end":9657.233,"text":"好好檢討一下啦好不好這個東西到底是什麼原因那再來通用計程車的一個問題那這個新聞的部分"},{"start":9661.172,"end":9661.192,"text":"好"},{"start":9682.891,"end":9705.05,"text":"現在這個情況 你們也很清楚啦一直在想辦法 像4月有新的一些補助辦法規定我們也看到了嘛那說真的 這已經十幾年了十幾年了 那發生什麼樣一個情況呢這很多現在的現況急需解決啊你現在看看第二個 第一行是我們這個全國各六都 以六都為例"},{"start":9705.991,"end":9720.936,"text":"身心障礙者人數的一個比例第二個比例是通用計程車在這幾個六都中間佔有的比例台北市看起來幾乎是四成但四成也不多你知道嗎因為全國總共在113年年底的統計才1324輛佔所有計程車的大概是1.5%"},{"start":9731.98,"end":9752.145,"text":"所以你在看這個人數的一個比例服務的一個比例一台通用所謂無障礙計程車到底服務幾位身心障礙當然所有身心障礙的類別非常多不一定是輪椅那一類但是我們還是用這個通盤去做一個政策的參考的比較你看台北市每台車服務230人"},{"start":9754.625,"end":9778.663,"text":"到了桃園每一台車服務1281人到了最後台南一台車要服務2590人這個第一個車數明顯不夠 總量不夠第二個呢 分配的部分也不夠平均所以怎麼樣在政策去引導這個次長你回答一下那為什麼在這樣這麼缺車的情況"},{"start":9780.684,"end":9793.882,"text":"隨便找三個城市啦 不想弄表搞得花花的確實應該每一年都趕快來申請新北市前三年1112130沒有人申請 沒有人要你們的錢"},{"start":9795.171,"end":9818.19,"text":"一台車補助31萬 新購車 沒人要台北市 還好 台北市做的最好了1113沒有 112年他有提這個 但是補助多少 我不知道桃園 我也問了 是000就是說這個政策 引導性 重要性從中央政府到地方政府 到底發生什麼事 你能不能總結一下"},{"start":9818.931,"end":9840.129,"text":"明明就很缺 分配又不均 可是大家又不想申請但你先看右邊這個零喔 不要解釋這三都啦111年 現在已經跟你申請結帳的 右邊的表111年你們公務局補助出去的 結帳的 全國是零這最嚴重喔 所以不要看其他縣市 其他縣市沒有人跟你申請"},{"start":9841.833,"end":9858.679,"text":"這麼急迫為什麼搞成這樣市長你說一下我跟委員報告一下剛才委員講一輛車尤其是我們的通用計程車服務整體上來看可能還要再加入地方政府的復康巴士所以我想整體復康巴士來營運的狀況會不一樣"},{"start":9860.64,"end":9888.981,"text":"那至於說通用計程車的申請的這一部分是由各縣市政府來提出申請那我們也有相關的一個補助那我們也發現通用計程車以往的時候來申請以後它不是用在載運這種需要輪椅來服務的乘客所以我們今年應該是4月我們就已經改變了相關的一個方式當然補助我們還是繼續補助應該是一台車應該是40萬的一個補助那另外呢它空車在等待"},{"start":9889.721,"end":9911.034,"text":"也有給相關的經費然後他行駛空車行駛到這個載運這個無障礙也有那最重要的我們希望這些生前的這個通用計程車的這個駕駛朋友他要在一個運營所的一個平台上愛接送的平台上去顯示出來類似像以後來加速這種通用計程車的使用通用計程車要不要在輪椅的這個客戶"},{"start":9914.036,"end":9938.072,"text":"所有通用計程車要能夠掛牌合法作為通用計程車要不要做這樣的輔具設施要嘛就好了嘛你現在講說要載誰對一般人他也可以做一般的生意只要椅子夠我懂啦可是你這個成本是固定的嘛那我現在就請教你知道嗎大家都痛苦啊剛剛早上通完一個電話他坐了七年不坐了換車了絕對絕對不回去"},{"start":9940.774,"end":9958.235,"text":"我剛剛講怎麼這麼堅決發生什麼事你們到底是不知道政策領導當然我覺得有一半去做改了當然第一個購車的成本購車的成本他都目前全台灣除了原裝的車輛可能加原裝的大概主要有四到五款的車適合做"},{"start":9959.016,"end":9966.82,"text":"那有稍微貴 稍微便宜的大概都180到200現況就是整個輔具做好大概就要這麼貴那你們補助款呢過去是30 31萬嗎30幾萬是不是31萬然後現在4月開始3月6號公告現在變成40萬請問一下我購車我現在要貸款要去借錢購車最痛苦購車最痛苦那你們呢"},{"start":9986.791,"end":10003.551,"text":"講過去的31萬是不是應該要一次或者進駐要到位讓人家第一次花了180萬到200萬你補助他30萬只是貼他一點六分之一 趕快補助他一些回補一些經濟這也是你們當時的用意嘛 對不對"},{"start":10004.292,"end":10020.294,"text":"是那有分年嗎或五年才給他滿意嗎一次一次到位一次到位啊你知道現在的車隊我跟委員報告因為各種這個通用計程車他本來的樣式就不一樣所以我們當時在訂試駛的時候是有針對整個試車"},{"start":10022.336,"end":10034.399,"text":"升降的這個輔助的設備那也跟委員說明一下有關通用計程車通用型的計程車目前我們也正在跟經濟部共同來研議在未來我們希望所有的計程車都是通用計程車如果是你講說的這麼OK的話不會每一年到現在就這個"},{"start":10045.283,"end":10061.275,"text":"1.5% 1300多台 大家騎車都要來那你車輛的補助款 你是一次給他那你覺得 你有問過那個市長你有問過真正通用計程車的司機嗎 駕駛嗎車子自己買的 他是一次拿到還是分好幾年拿到 你有沒有問跟這位委員報告一下目前這個通用計程車的部分大概是透過車隊的這個部分來好啦 你答案出來了嘛"},{"start":10072.093,"end":10089.268,"text":"你的意思就是說本來是我們的概念政策是說錢給買車那個人結果中間說車隊不好意思不能自己來要透過我車隊申請然後車隊去你補給地方政府他給他申請31萬拿過來然後呢然後呢到車隊了"},{"start":10094.244,"end":10120.827,"text":"到車隊然後怎麼樣 如果他向台北市申請100輛車你把這麼多的錢放在車隊產生了幾十萬上百萬的利息你是圖利是不是我告訴你現在反映的車隊 我不講哪個車隊 就是五年你的三十一萬就是五年 他不玩了嘛五年耶 你一次要給他五年 五年還分十次然後半年三萬一 三萬一"},{"start":10122.659,"end":10136.524,"text":"不是你們的政策我是覺得如果要擔心說我補助你萬一不做但是第一次購車款你至少要給人家一半嘛要給人家一半嘛後面再監督他到底做得怎麼樣好啦我建議這個市長"},{"start":10140.186,"end":10153.141,"text":"市長 拜託一下 通運計程車隨機找一些朋友來不然這些 你現在1324台 我做個結論有多少是五年以上他已經沒有在幹了他根本不按了五年了嘛"},{"start":10153.882,"end":10173.713,"text":"假設一般的車行員3年5年我不幹了我不要 你們這樣子我要多少服務態度要服上去服下來然後車制一樣他不幹了所以我覺得第一次的車款即使不能給他也要給三分之二三分之一看你到底有沒有去服務我們真的不能這樣的"},{"start":10175.153,"end":10189.203,"text":"不能這樣 你31萬要一次給他他第一次只拿到3萬1這是事實 早上的一個車隊的情況如果你們還不知道跟你們政策的一個效度差異很大 請你們去研究 謝謝謝謝魯明哲委員的執行現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":10550.029,"end":10574.151,"text":"好 各位請就座好 現在請蔡其昌副院長執行謝謝主席麻煩主席請交通部陳政次好 陳次長"},{"start":10580.044,"end":10599.5,"text":"市長好市長今天有兩個題目想來就教市長第一個我想這些年來陸續媒體也都有報導就是特別是開放現在這個檢舉之後媒體也都有報導就是有關那個"},{"start":10601.36,"end":10623.192,"text":"高速公路啊要下這個交流道譬如說這個台76線啊這個中部地區民眾非常常常使用台76線在12點省道跟高速公路都有譬如說台76線下這個下這個埔心交流道"},{"start":10630.984,"end":10656.73,"text":"然後下蒲岩雜道都會出現擁塞情形那擁塞呢大家就會一路從下面一路往上塞往上塞的結果就會塞到雜道 塞到那個叫做路尖然後呢 就有人檢舉那過去呢 我查了一下新聞資料像這個"},{"start":10660.848,"end":10686.464,"text":"TVBS媒體的報導警察依檢舉影片開80張罰單就一整排車主都收到紅單那本席最近也同樣收到民眾的陳情也是一樣因為要排隊嘛這個紅色的車子要排隊那排隊你看他的車輪啊已經一輪在這個這個路肩上面所以呢就檢舉這個所愛這個行駛路肩那"},{"start":10691.821,"end":10712.327,"text":"市長這個我想不是今天才發生那過去法院也曾判決我查了一下資料法院也曾針對民眾在法院有訴訟所以法院就認證說排入監是為了緊急避難所以准予撤銷這個罰單"},{"start":10714.164,"end":10741.767,"text":"所以我看過公路局的做法這個法院准許撤銷罰單然後我們的做法裡面有去改快速道路或者高速公路這個路間的情形那也有要求要動態檢舉也就是不能憑一張照片因為那動態表示這個透過動態就可以看到他是故意要走路間還是被迫走路間"},{"start":10743.089,"end":10766.583,"text":"所以動態的檢舉也是一種方法但是呢這個民眾到今天為止還是譬如說我講這張罰單我請公路單位來說明公路單位還是他覺得沒有辦法還是要請民眾自己去申訴那市長我想喔這個民眾喔其實市農工商很忙啊"},{"start":10767.506,"end":10792.913,"text":"被開了罰單明明就是在路間等待塞車就下面我就下不去嘛那這樣的一個塞車情形民眾還要主動被開這個單子已經是気持很壞了這就不是 他就沒有錯啊他就你政府應該解決塞車的問題啊你塞車讓我下不去我排隊在那裡還要被檢舉還要開罰單開罰單你告訴我說你自己去申訴"},{"start":10798.223,"end":10820.871,"text":"所以本席今天透過這個質詢就是要來救救次長像這種叫民怨這種就是制度這個制度殺人簡單講就是這樣子那所以次長我看過過去的方法譬如說我們曾經在法院認證上把它撤銷當然這個不好啦不依教大家每一個人都上法院這個"},{"start":10822.832,"end":10850.88,"text":"制度設計叫大家我把你開了你自己再去法院講嘛這個我是覺得非常不妥所以有些路段或許適合在工程設計上去做調整但我也接受我們公路同仁的講法有些路段是不適合的所以開路間是不對的不可以但如果因為被迫他必須因為你塞車嘛所以我必須就必須要在那裡排隊那我們也曾經"},{"start":10852.13,"end":10864.086,"text":"有個案 叫做我們要求 再有一些路段啦應該不是說個案 有一些路段要求要動態檢舉那為什麼我們交通部不統一去宣布說類似像這種情形 都應該要動態檢舉來 次長"},{"start":10869.319,"end":10889.139,"text":"我想我跟委員報告一下有關委員剛才舉例的很多這些照片其實都牽涉到這個相關的違規舉發的這個相關的實務而且應該除了公務主管機關之外可能也要跟警察機關大家共同去討論一下因為什麼樣的情況下當然是如果"},{"start":10890.44,"end":10906.051,"text":"該委員特別要緊急避難啊或者是什麼樣情況下他來行駛這樣不得行駛的一個路段這個說不定有他的可行性但是是不是一定是這樣這個可能要再討論一下所以委員看"},{"start":10906.531,"end":10922.623,"text":"特別提到的這個部分我想我們可以帶回去請司里頭或是公路局或高工局整個道路主管機關再跟警察機關好好大家討論一下到底是什麼樣的情況因為即便是在這個塞車的時候所有的車輛還是要遵循著相關的一個規定來行駛"},{"start":10924.464,"end":10946.021,"text":"因為他剛才什麼樣的情況下是所有的車子都跑到路間了這個可能要去探究一下說不定就是在前面有什麼樣的一個狀況發生了所以整個來講可能不宜從這樣幾張照片就說不可市長你可能完全沒有懂我剛剛花了很長時間在講這件事情我要告訴你是什麼"},{"start":10946.681,"end":10970.633,"text":"他就是有一些樣態 我講過不可以走路間喔但有一些樣態他是不得不走路間喔譬如說舉例嘛 他如果一路從快車道排上來簡單講 他要塞住最外側的車道 如果塞車的時候閘道塞車 他已經一路從閘道一直排上來他一定要排到最外側的車道嘛"},{"start":10971.209,"end":10984.818,"text":"那大家會習慣 譬如說前面一台車 排外車 大家會覺得說為了讓車 高速公路不要塞車 大家就會盡量往路間往路間靠 這人性嘛你現在懂我在講什麼嗎 所以"},{"start":10986.428,"end":11006.17,"text":"他如果不是因為這個樣子而去行駛路肩這當然要罰但本席告訴你的是一種特別的樣態你的設計他就自然而然他一個車輪可能他一半因為他要讓快車道好開嘛所以他就會自然不要塞到人家在塞車大家盡量靠邊停嘛"},{"start":11006.69,"end":11026.116,"text":"那靠邊停前面都靠邊停我一個人難道我要就給他停在外側車道嗎不可能我會跟著前面的車靠邊停所以我靠邊停我的一個輪子可能在路肩甚至大家都停路肩的時候我也會跟著停路肩因為我不可能一個人我就停外側車道"},{"start":11028.237,"end":11051.675,"text":"因為前面整排塞車上來都停路肩嘛那我的意思是說政府站在這些案例上面這些易塞車路段只要一有人檢舉就會導這個不是今天才有的個案嘛就會有人檢舉就會導致民眾他自然而然他就會去車子就會在路肩上面嘛所以他被拍照他就要去"},{"start":11052.415,"end":11075.089,"text":"你就要叫他自己去申訴啊不然他能怎麼樣所以我的意思是說政府不應該去做這種事情啦政府應該要站在人民的立場說如果遇到類似什麼樣的情況 譬如說舉例我剛剛講 譬如說你們曾經做過的有一個路段你們叫動態檢舉就不可以只憑一張照片就你透過影片我就知道你們整排都在排隊嘛"},{"start":11076.092,"end":11094.887,"text":"所以你們要不要跟警察單位來協商說面對這種情況該怎麼執法然後讓以後類似像只要你要檢舉這種狀況你就必須要動態如果你是單張照片的一張照片我就不予受理這個要有一個"},{"start":11096.894,"end":11109.893,"text":"方法跟你們一個解方出來 不然人民就是常常會遇到這種遇到一個人 他就到處在檢舉這個我塞在車陣中 你要我要怎麼做市長你現在懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":11111.357,"end":11132.893,"text":"我想我了解委員剛才講的動態檢舉是我們上一次要檢舉民眾檢舉的時候希望不要單憑一張照片所以才會講到說檢舉的時候希望要有幾張照片來輔助那這裡又提到說這如果是警察自己的檢舉的影帶那其實就是一個video那個是整個整的是連貫的所以我想委員剛才提到的這樣會誤讓民眾這個"},{"start":11139.942,"end":11150.805,"text":"對 沒有錯 剛才司長講說要開放 但是路肩可能就是就是寬度不足的啦我沒有要開放路肩 你為什麼聽不懂來來來 我舉個例子 市長這一台車有沒有違規"},{"start":11154.565,"end":11183.223,"text":"他的輪子 這個是車道喔 這個是路肩啊那塞車的情況 就這一整排都把他移到這個車道來你們的主張是不是這個樣子我沒有要你開放路肩 我再講一次啦為什麼老師聽不懂我在講什麼公路局就已經聽不懂了 換次長講 還是聽不懂我只問你說 如果你現在這台車的司機是你啦請問你 你要停這裡跟整排都停到車子壓到路肩 還是你自己要停在這裡你告訴我這樣就好了"},{"start":11184.555,"end":11207.621,"text":"這個塞車他為什麼會停在這裡 他不是要開路肩啊我也要沒有要你開放路肩嘛我只問你說 人民卡在這個車站當中車子 後面的人檢舉 他就要去想辦法自己去解決啊糟了 你都聽不下去我問你嘛 這次若是你 你要怎麼辦啦這個人就是要檢舉違規 因為他在路肩命令嘛我了解 委員"},{"start":11210.143,"end":11223.015,"text":"這個舉例啦這個我們了解所以我剛才也有講到說相關的這樣的一個情形呢我們會請那個公路主管機關就是我們的私裡頭或者是公路局跟高工局跟警察機關就實務上"},{"start":11224.696,"end":11245.613,"text":"我現在就問你交通部的態度我當然也同意你們這又不是你去開罰單不是你交通部去開罰單嘛但是你是公路的主管機關嘛所以我先問公路的主管機關態度是怎麼樣如果今天警察局署長有來我當然問署長啊那因為現在就你在這裡所以我當然問你嘛你的態度是什麼你要給我知道啊"},{"start":11245.993,"end":11265.368,"text":"外台都其實就是交通部的一貫的態度檢舉 處罰民眾一定不是我們的本意所以在這個處罰上就是講他的合理性 可責性的情況下才會來處罰那所以剛才有特別幾號 這牽涉到實務上的處理我們會跟警察機關討論以後來律定一個"},{"start":11268.01,"end":11292.709,"text":"所以你現在知道交通部是不是能夠理解這個狀況是不是同意說如果遇到這種特殊的情形法院叫做緊急避難交通部是不是同意說來交通部同意說這個特殊情形我們應該對於怎麼來開罰單應該有一個一致性的律定那這一致性的律定交通部同意但"},{"start":11293.169,"end":11314.482,"text":"要跟警察機關來溝通這我們會來跟警察機關這樣對不對 我說的這樣你贊成嗎贊成 贊成市長我只要叫你這樣而已 我也沒辦法來做不是你在開端的嘛但是我要跟你說這個人民很堅固啦我了解啦我們做官就要站在人民的立場如果是換你將心比心換你是這一個現在還要你去上法院所以你自己去申訴"},{"start":11316.072,"end":11340.08,"text":"你不要做市長 你來做人民看你的手氣所以我剛有說我們原則上是不輕易來處罰民眾我剛有說要主張開放路肩對不對 我沒有這個主張啊公路局來給我說明過了 我也同意這是特殊情形嘛我再舉個例子 如果這裡發生車禍民眾剛好前面有車禍 他開過來路肩因為要閃躲這個車禍嘛被遭到"},{"start":11346.022,"end":11371.723,"text":"這個是不是特殊情形但是如果憑一張照片他就可能出現他把車禍現場避掉叫那個人民治癒去想辦法我意思要跟你講的就是說交通部我們的政府官員不可以這樣嘛你那個執法單位你是公路主管機關所以有這麼多的案例民眾的抱怨甚至上法院了我只要求你們有一個態度啦"},{"start":11372.591,"end":11393.932,"text":"不是你們一步步都改觀嘛這要跟執法單位警政署來聯繫嘛但是你有這個態度你就會去做這件事嘛人民的堅固在哪裡站在人民的立場替他們想一想嘛將心比心你自己想如果是你我在這裡拍馬三字經啦那會酸酸到不會酸啦你們懂我在這裡講什麼嗎"},{"start":11397.625,"end":11413.917,"text":"好 市長 現在麻煩你了 好不好時間的關係 我本來兩件啦 是現在沒辦法 只剩下我們說一件而已啦 是下一件就等你們部長來再講好了 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝蔡奇章副院長現在請林俊憲委員執行好 謝謝局長沒事邀請我們交通部的陳市長好 陳政事"},{"start":11432.349,"end":11454.38,"text":"委員好 次長好 次長 是這個孔蓋啊 要下地啦要原則下地啦 例外才不下地啦我給你看幾個地方啦第一個喔 這個是惡名昭彰啦這個在台中啊 台中市啦那100公尺喔 有20幾個孔蓋啦"},{"start":11457.094,"end":11483.53,"text":"這個在台南的仁德啦20公尺有將近10個孔蓋啦這些都是落後的象徵哪一個國家的馬路像台灣這樣好像在打鼓一樣 這樣一塊一塊而且你孔蓋啊 因為它分屬很多單位維護狀況都不一樣雖然我們交通部有訂那個防滑係數"},{"start":11485.441,"end":11509.572,"text":"但是啊 通常馬路鋪好以後啊防滑係數還有路平啊都在驗收那一天合格而已啦車開久了就沒辦法啦如果不是出現高低差啊不平啊 或者孔蓋沒有蓋緊啊要不然就是有防滑係數不足來 我們再看一下會不會發生車禍常常發生車禍啦"},{"start":11513.078,"end":11536.489,"text":"機車騎士 嚇得阿彌陰冒冒 有沒有看到這裡 甚至出過人命這位女騎士很不幸 壓過孔蓋又滑倒 摔死所以家屬 很多用路人都很清楚有孔蓋的地方 就好像地雷如果你沒地方傘 那你要把它騎過去"},{"start":11538.106,"end":11561.785,"text":"你要 你就要小心啦 很可能會被滑倒那汽車也差不多啦 因為如果不平的話你的車這樣壓過去 高高低低這樣彈跳車也快壞了 是不是這樣所以喔 本期 我在上一屆很可惜啦 因為屆期不連續啦 我要修公路法"},{"start":11562.691,"end":11576.635,"text":"我們希望孔蓋要原則下地 例外才不下地那台灣的孔蓋有多可怕 我再給你看一個表社長 這個我記得我也跟你討論過了台電還有將近70萬個孔蓋沒有下地台水有將近50萬個孔蓋 中油還有1500個左右"},{"start":11586.249,"end":11607.261,"text":"中華電信最可怕 有144萬個所以台灣目前的孔蓋 光這四大單位台電 台水 中油 中華電信就有超過260萬個孔蓋我還沒有算瓦斯 我也不算電子電視台"},{"start":11609.653,"end":11616.58,"text":"第四台也會走下面 還有地方上的一些孔蓋 我還沒有計算所以我為什麼要修公路法第一個 台灣的公路大街小巷 還有這麼多的孔蓋兩三百萬個 這個實在是很危險 也是很落後的象徵"},{"start":11633.53,"end":11662.668,"text":"所以我修的法其實也很有彈性第一個原則下地第二個如果你孔蓋的管理單位你覺得你那個地方你不適合或不能下地那你可以列出來彈性給他們所以這個是彼此都有一個彈性他可以列出他無法下地的地方就是說這個範圍他沒有辦法下地這個他可以定"},{"start":11663.766,"end":11686.387,"text":"第三 我也沒有設完成期限說你多久以內幾百萬個孔蓋要全部下地那第三點很重要我有定罰則如果你那個地方孔蓋已經出問題那我請你下地 如果你沒有下地那我們有一些罰則我再請教次長你現在如果"},{"start":11687.975,"end":11703.843,"text":"尤其是機車歧視齁最危險你壓過孔蓋如果你摔倒齁你現在是沒有錢賠你沒有法源依據的孔蓋使用單位從來沒有認輸啦全部你都要去換一格受害人要去法院提告因為我們的沒有母法沒有法則啦那孔蓋使用單位啊沒有一件啊賠給受害者都叫人去收割啦"},{"start":11717.768,"end":11743.69,"text":"都說你騎車不適宜啦你自己會摔倒啦 有的沒的啦所以我其實在上一屆立委任命我就開始修了那我也辦過工電會我也跟很多的使用單位 事業單位有孔蓋的也談過 也跟你交通部談過經濟部所管的啦 台水啦 台電啦大家都同意啦"},{"start":11744.755,"end":11757.311,"text":"交通部有同意啦 台電 台水 中油都同意啦交通部 經濟保管的事 都同意啦中油 台電 台水啦交通部那時候有同意你交通部的態度有改變嗎"},{"start":11762.452,"end":11789.407,"text":"孔蓋夏你來 你回答我想跟委員報告我想有關委員特別提案原則下地啦 例外不下地啦這樣的一個修法剛才在口頭的報告裡頭大概也都有說明原則上我們是尊重對不對 你態度有沒有改變嗎目前沒有改變沒有改變嘛 所以交通部也同意那現在就有一個單位反對啦那中華電信啦最後一列的單位是中華電信他孔蓋最多"},{"start":11791.869,"end":11818.317,"text":"然後每次要碰這個法他就會去遊說國民黨的立委出來反對就是你們 你們的中華電信最惡劣的事業單位它的空間有170幾萬我剛剛統計就144萬個 那不要再看一下借我們資產看一下260萬個沒有下地 是四大單位其中啊 中華電信就140幾萬個了"},{"start":11821.548,"end":11841.636,"text":"中華電信每次都用盡辦法要來阻擋這樣的一個修法方向所以市長我當時就跟各大單位也跟你們交通部溝通過嘛原則下地如果你例外你管理使用單位覺得你們無法下地你可以定範圍你可以定出來"},{"start":11843.359,"end":11865.049,"text":"對不對 第二個 我也沒有完成期限 說你多久要完成這已經是很彈性的一個做法第三 當然你有罰則嘛 這是保護人民最卑微的一個請求嘛人家經過要補充 如果造勢原因是你口蓋的問題現在是不賠 因為他沒有法源根據啊 你知道嗎"},{"start":11868.038,"end":11897.086,"text":"所以如果就算你造勢原因是因為孔蓋 路不平孔蓋防滑係數不足可憐的受害者也要去提告啦 你要去告國賠啦因為啊 法律不規定喔 這要賠錢啊我們現在比較重啦 你使用單位 如果我已經叫你我已經通知你那個地方要下地 或者要改善啊你如果沒有 我現在定一個法則這是最基本的保護用路人"},{"start":11899.592,"end":11904.052,"text":"這是不是我們要責任的對不對你知道他們不會支持我的消防嗎"},{"start":11905.797,"end":11934.803,"text":"在進入諸條討論的時候來表達支持的態度是好謝謝市長我再跟市長提醒經濟部管的單位都同意經濟部也同意經濟部管的事業單位都同意就只有你交通部我跟委員報告中華電信最惡劣中華電信我們只是最大股東那個主管機關NCC但是我們恐慨最多我們會來轉達請他們來重視這個最反對最惡劣每次要修法出來遊說的那今天遊說國民黨的立委出來反對"},{"start":11935.819,"end":11960.509,"text":"我們會來轉達是好謝謝市長謝謝林進憲委員現在請習富奎委員執行謝謝主席尤其我們政次好陳政次還有我們公路局陳局長公路局陳局長"},{"start":11964.318,"end":11990.291,"text":"委員好鄭次跟局長午安好我想我們過去我們這個我們許多的公路都有栽種了許多漂亮的樹那每逢這個開花的時候這個每步生長但是我們也發現這個許多樹是遇到這個颱風的時候就這樣支離破碎狀況很嚴重也造成很多的一個交通的問題那所以我想"},{"start":11991.84,"end":12005.837,"text":"本席這次特別提出我們這個公路法第32條一個修正草案那我想我們過去從去年我們有三個颱風侵襲全台分別是凱米、酸土耳跟康納都造成了這個全台2000到3000"},{"start":12007.919,"end":12034.256,"text":"起了一個路數交通的一個問題那除了這個造成路數倒塌之外那更嚴重其阻礙我們的交通那所以我想本席特別提出公路局應該在我們整個公路的系統裡面要重視可以重視水土保持甚至是我們的原生樹種的一個提案那避免這個外來種這個無法抵擋這個風災的侵襲市長交通部會不會支持本席的提案"},{"start":12035.836,"end":12057.752,"text":"像我們知識委員的這樣的提案而且有關使用原生樹種這也是公路局或者是高工局我們其實整個交通部來講大概都是一個這樣的一個方向在走而且相關的我剛才特別提到不管是公路局或高工局他們大概都有相關的一個規範來規範如何使用這個道路的行道樹"},{"start":12058.893,"end":12085.628,"text":"我想這不是只是為了保護我們的生態那同時我覺得也是對我們整個這個城市美觀這個綠化的一個很重要的一個因素我們這個有時候開花季節看到這個很漂亮的漆黑那麼新款的生意是不是會比較好所以我們還是希望這個交通部能夠盡快這個能夠去檢討這樣一個機制那也透過這樣一個修法的程序那我們希望能夠盡快來落實"},{"start":12087.079,"end":12087.843,"text":"那第二個問題我想"},{"start":12089.878,"end":12117.318,"text":"人本交通推動的部分我想這是我們大家一起共同努力的一個方向但是遺憾的是根據民意調查人本交通的政策在我們民間的知曉度真的還是很偏低我們好不容易推動的政策只有目前我們掌握到一個狀況是大概不到一成的民眾知道內容甚至高達八成不知道這個內容"},{"start":12118.615,"end":12132.05,"text":"那所以正是我們交通部在這個媒體宣傳甚至在很多這個偏鄉的這個整開資訊比較不發達的狀況之下我想我們應該要怎麼樣去強化這樣的一個好的一個政策我們有沒有什麼改進的空間"},{"start":12136.375,"end":12152.68,"text":"跟委員報告我想人本交通可能是對一般民眾來講的確可能是比較少知道這個名字但事實上我們改善行人的安全的空間其實我們的做法我相信民眾應當是了解的"},{"start":12153.2,"end":12171.712,"text":"那未來我們會跟內政部國土署就針對這個人本交通內涵透過各種場合來加強宣導當然很重要的就是說可以在不同的管道我們可以加強行人安全的改善的一個作為跟政策的一個宣導"},{"start":12173.306,"end":12190.635,"text":"市長我比較遺憾的看法是這樣子因為我們現在很多鄉鎮都在做人本環境的改善標誌標線畫得很漂亮中間任性也做得很漂亮但是"},{"start":12192.865,"end":12206.19,"text":"並好像沒有得到太多的掌聲我講的就是這個不只住戶反對甚至連這個路人 用路人也搞不清楚要怎麼去使用這樣一個100分的這個人性環境這到底問題出在哪裡"},{"start":12208.218,"end":12231.76,"text":"我想跟委員報告所有的這個人本的或永續提升行人交通安全的這個方案裡頭其實一個重要的一個環節就是要在地溝通所有的這個因為你不管是線也好或區域的改善都是跟在地的民眾會息息相關所以在相關的這個改善的這個規範裡面SOP裡面大概都有"},{"start":12232.52,"end":12252.77,"text":"一個環節是希望要跟地方溝通唯有在地方溝通獲得共識下那樣的一個改善才會有成效但是這一點我贊成但是我聽到的我們只是為了否這個公聽會的程序把它跑完至於通知了誰誰沒有通知完全都沒有掌握了所以很多"},{"start":12253.57,"end":12271.268,"text":"等到做好之後才跑來這個跟我們服務處陳情的也很多啦所以我認為溝通上面真的不能只是做交代一定要落實尤其是他們在那裡住了幾十名人你們都沒有興趣找他們他們當然是怨聲載道嘛這部分真的是要去要求這個部分啦"},{"start":12272.169,"end":12291.657,"text":"我想我們公路的部分 省道的部分公路局局長在這裡我想回去他應該會交代那至於國土署的部分我們也透過這個陸正道案室來做跟國土署進一步的溝通甚至前陣子我在街道恆春一個案件我們把一個人行步道做了一個沒站到的地方那什麼人在走 整個在走真的很離譜啦"},{"start":12292.91,"end":12307.739,"text":"我不能為了要要搭乘績效去做這樣的一個規劃這個真的很離譜啦來檢討是好那另外我想我們這個這個月5號有修正了一個違反道交條例的一個裁罰基準那調高了"},{"start":12308.599,"end":12335.655,"text":"罰款部分是一萬八到三萬六那預計六月底要上路但是我們從警政署調閱了相關的資料一百一十二年到一百一十三年我們未停讓輕人的件數雖然從十四萬降到十一萬但死亡人數從五十四人增加到八十四人受傷人數從四千六百多人提升到五千一百多人那這次提高罰款就可以減輕民眾的傷亡嗎"},{"start":12339.973,"end":12368.569,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下這次這一個就是說調整這個裁判基準的部分是針對在人行道上面就是已經造成這個行人的這個傷亡的這個部分並沒有去針對一般違規的部分去做這個調整那另外有關於行人的部分的話我印象中這個應該是在這個月的這個記者會大概也就是說一到三月的部分行人已經"},{"start":12370.663,"end":12395.188,"text":"我們三十死亡行人部分一到二月已經比去年同期有減少我們都支持這樣的一個好的一個修法啦但是就是我講的我認為你們宣傳的力道還是不夠啦尤其針對我們鄉下真的資訊傳達比較慢的地方應該用不一樣的手段啦比方一套標準齁在都會可以進而通整坑齁撒不走啦真的是差很多啦"},{"start":12396.068,"end":12421.516,"text":"應該用不一樣的策略 尤其我之前提過了 像我們有關懷據點你們應該結合我們的社會處或是我們在地的警察局去關懷據點 到這個東北市去選團嘛這才是我們的受眾啊我覺得應該是要強化這些的部分啦好 謝謝 我們也有相關的陸老師也大概有這個 我們來看怎麼樣再來進一步的看如何結合啦對啊 我是覺得要把你們那個宣傳的那個"},{"start":12424.489,"end":12449.434,"text":"那我想最後一個問題就是針對我們這個未成年的一個肇事的一個問題那我想過去這個每10萬人裡面死傷人數從400多個變600多個成長了4成那所以這個未成年的這個考照的問題還有甚至這個道安獎席跟罰款的問題那我想這部分是不是交通部應該有更精進的一個策略來處理"},{"start":12452.757,"end":12481.01,"text":"我想那個有關無照駕駛的部分我們有相關的一個修法來希望能夠來看能不能降低這種無照駕駛的情形當然這個尤其是未成年的無照駕駛其實它分很多面向一個是社會的面向一個是教育的面向所以還有家庭所以我原則上我們現在會透過道安委會的年度師導希望教育部有這樣的就能列管相關的這個無照駕駛的這個小朋友"},{"start":12481.61,"end":12503.724,"text":"然後能夠透過剛才講的那樣的一個幾個環節一起來防範他繼續的無照駕駛我想這個是大概是我們目前正在努力的一個方向這次那有沒有可能才建議是一個考照制度這樣部分來輔導這些年輕人或是怎麼樣做一個合理的管控這個是開放"},{"start":12505.88,"end":12524.934,"text":"比如說我們有可以限制夜間行駛 我想委員講的這個漸進式的考上大概就是很多人的建議希望就是有的是直接建議是考上年齡能夠降低有的是希望有所謂的出學者駕照或是在這裡講的學習駕駛證其實我們現在也有那整個來看的話其實這個還要大家再進一步的一個討論剛才其實有委員也指教過"},{"start":12533.72,"end":12557.15,"text":"那最主要的話我們現在其實尤其是這種無照駕駛大概就是比較喜歡開機車我們其實現在有微型電動二輪車我們的了解也有一些高中的教官或學校也針對這個來鼓勵小朋友能夠來騎乘青年朋友來騎乘這個然後也把他納入管理所以我想可以透過這樣的方式來避免他們繼續採用無照的方式來騎乘機車"},{"start":12558.55,"end":12579.466,"text":"對啦 但是我們還是希望這個未成年人這個事情我們還是要希望能夠嚴格來看待畢竟我們也不希望這個因為過去我們自己有很多的同學就是未成年的時候站到桌子上都是人真的也是蠻多人所以我們還是期待說這一個政策的部分能夠去跨部會來整合一下看看怎麼樣去防堵這樣一個"},{"start":12580.507,"end":12595.684,"text":"一個政策要實施其實還有要跟地方政府還有跟教育主管機關大家共同因為那個牽涉到學生的安全事項可能不是一個單一的一個交通的面向可以考慮的要整體還有司法的面向也都要一併納入最後那個"},{"start":12596.505,"end":12615.534,"text":"公務局陳局長我們明明要實施遊覽車駕駛識別的一個功能設備的一個裝車嘛那這不會因為我們這邊還是有接到一些反彈的意見那甚至認為這個是不是很好的一個政策那這個我們早時間會再請你們來做說明一下這個檢討一下這個功能性的必要謝謝謝謝習副委員請陳樹蔚委員執行"},{"start":12634.879,"end":12636.426,"text":"謝謝主席 請主席邀請次長"},{"start":12643.269,"end":12671.404,"text":"委員好 次長早安就是平常本席在地方經常會遇到民眾反映就是其實就是常常接到民眾反映說我們的這個汽車燃料費為什麼不改由這個水油徵收或者是說隨這個工程里程來徵收這樣子比較公平因為有的人的車子他可能使用的頻率不高可能只有假日"},{"start":12671.904,"end":12685.023,"text":"也許是只有假日才來使用所以他們認為說如果按照這樣子的就是目前的隨車徵收的話對於使用頻率比較低的車主來說比較不公平那這個議題其實在過去"},{"start":12688.287,"end":12702.557,"text":"我也曾經提過案也質詢過不過當然我們江部都有就是自愛難行的一個部分那我們也看到這個育年所在108年的時候也有針對這個氣燃費徵收做一個研究報告結論也是說維持隨車徵收那現在就是說因為隨著這個時間的推移108年到現在也又過了8年也快"},{"start":12718.229,"end":12726.882,"text":"又快了好幾年了嘛六七年了所以就是說經過這樣子的一個時間時空的轉移我們對這個部分有沒有新的想法"},{"start":12730.82,"end":12751.941,"text":"我想跟委員報告,有關如何徵收的方式,也是剛才陳主委員講的,這其實在歷好幾年了,不是歷年,大概大家都一直在提,從以前的隨車到隨郵,甚至有人提到說按里程、按重量等等的都有,"},{"start":12752.501,"end":12770.696,"text":"那其實這樣的一個議題就是因為不管是採用哪一個方式來徵收都有他的優點跟他的缺點那整體上的考量還是第一個要考慮公平那另外一個是徵收的一個整個成本也好或者整個的收入也好因為"},{"start":12771.977,"end":12787.529,"text":"進來以後要里程要來做養護的工作或修建的工作那另外是民眾的可負擔心所以整體上來看目前是還是朝向的既有的這個隨車徵收的方式但是我們也聽到的大家各界的一個建議尤其是電動車輛引進以後"},{"start":12789.21,"end":12807.812,"text":"所以目前我們也正為請這個運營所做相關的研究我們希望能夠再繼續一個觀察一下或者是了解一下世界各國隨著這樣的近鄰的議題以後或者是隨著科技的進步以後是不是有什麼樣一個徵收的方式因為這樣的一個徵收方式不是只有我們"},{"start":12808.633,"end":12824.265,"text":"才有其實各國也都有有在實行而且我們看到各國實施上多數也是採用隨車徵收的一個方式所以目前才是用這樣的方式繼續在徵收以上是好那今天就是委員會針對這個公路法第27條"},{"start":12825.606,"end":12840.451,"text":"就是有委員提案這個進行詢問那當然就是我們也認為說如果說我們沒有辦法將汽車燃料使用費改由水有徵收的話可能跟我們目前的第27條的這個"},{"start":12842.611,"end":12870.341,"text":"條文的就是說這一個項目的名稱跟目的是不符合的所以就主張說這個條文裡面就是說公路主管機關為了公路養護及修建安全管理所需費用得徵收汽車燃料使用費所以為了讓民使相輔所以也建議不如就是將這樣子的一個徵收的一個項目名稱更正為公路養護修建及安全管理費"},{"start":12871.542,"end":12875.711,"text":"那這樣子修訂我們教務部這邊的意見跟態度是如何"},{"start":12876.876,"end":12898.351,"text":"這樣的一個方向我們贊同至於說文字是不是要這麼長是需要這麼多字我想到我們主條再討論的時候我們再來大家再來討論如果改成這樣子的一個項目名稱的話當然就是可以涵蓋未來可能就是要徵收的電動車這種車種如果說用汽車燃料使用費汽燃費的話可能就徵收不到電動車會排除非使用汽油的車種"},{"start":12906.677,"end":12918.995,"text":"所以這樣子也是又有公平性的問題那當然這個部分就是有待大家的一個討論跟共識那再來就是有關這個新車平等的這個計畫的問題"},{"start":12922.199,"end":12930.51,"text":"我們知道就是交通部為了推動就是評估新車的安全性所以我們也在張濱有興建了這個測試中心那時候在落成的時候由蘇貞昌院長主持本席也有去參與那這個目的主要就是說要透過"},{"start":12940.363,"end":12944.668,"text":"獨立的第三方機構對市售車輛進行試驗並將這個試驗的數據轉換成新等評級然後提供民眾易於理解在選購車輛的時候對這個車輛的安全性的資訊能夠有比較充分的一個了解跟掌握"},{"start":12959.625,"end":12976.35,"text":"我覺得這個很好我們也很肯定那當然就是說這個也是涉及到預算的問題那這個等一下我再來詢問那我先想了解一下目前我們這一個成立之後我們所進行的測試目前為止大概完成了多少量"},{"start":12978.669,"end":12999.733,"text":"跟委員報告一下大概目標都是每年8台那去年有做到8台嗎好像沒有去年6台去年才6台因為去年的預算有稍微這個結局一點然後今年就恢復這個8台然後包括這個車廠自費來申請這個測試的到目前已經完成18個車型"},{"start":13006.514,"end":13010.577,"text":"16個車型是包含車廠 車商自費的那在這些完成就是測驗的車輛裡面有包括電動車嗎有 特斯拉大概應該是完成這兩型了"},{"start":13028.041,"end":13045.354,"text":"完成兩行嘛 因為本席看到的資料裡面就是我們TN-CAP目前已經試驗完成的兩台這個電動車就是包括這個Model 3跟Model Y 是不是這個完成的時間好像都是最近才完成 去年跟今年"},{"start":13045.814,"end":13072.988,"text":"去年跟今年那因為我們也關注到就是說其實在電動車逐漸讓駕駛人能夠接受使用之後我們也陸續看到好幾件這個車禍的事故那包括就是在這個是在國外發生的有2021年12月在巴黎發生的一件就是Model 3的這個車型的一個"},{"start":13073.988,"end":13089.293,"text":"撞擊之後發生的火燒車事件包括2024年9月20號這是在國內新竹發生的也是撞了護欄之後起火燃燒然後2024年10月份是在加拿大"},{"start":13090.313,"end":13104.828,"text":"的多輪作發生的也是Model Y失控撞傷忽然之後起火還有包括今年1月25號國道1號陽梅休息站的這是也是電動車撞擊之後起火造成44傷"},{"start":13106.61,"end":13132.119,"text":"因為這樣子的一個電動車的撞擊失火的這樣的事故事實上在基層我也聽到很多民眾的一個疑慮那當然就是我們也看到說對照目前我們TNCAP所做的這個測試我們也當然很高興有看到這樣的測試可是要怎樣讓消費者對這個有信心是不是可以請次長講一下"},{"start":13134.332,"end":13155.485,"text":"跟委員報告現在這個2050金融碳排這個電動車這個讓民眾有信心對他這個安全這個值得信賴這個是最重要的一個課題那所以就是說針對這個我想針對電動小客車的部分剛剛委員所提到這個TN CAP那個是一個更高標準的要求"},{"start":13156.005,"end":13184.804,"text":"然後在這個車輛在做這個法規符合性車輛安全檢測基準的一個這一個檢測的時候剛剛市長也有提到針對這個電動車的安全性台灣跟歐盟跟日本一樣都是調合聯合國UNR100的這個法規進來那這個R100的一個法規就包括整車的電氣這個防護功能還有包括電池本身的部分都要去做這個"},{"start":13186.886,"end":13209.745,"text":"這個碰撞那其實我也這個我想說這個也不是打這個廣告像特斯拉這個部分的話在車輛安全這個就要上市銷售這個火線已經撞過一次了然後在這個去年跟前年的這個TNCAP的部分的話也在做這個實際碰撞那基本上大概這個都沒有發生爆炸起火這樣子的情況"},{"start":13211.308,"end":13220.042,"text":"剛剛有提到說TN CAP是比較高的標準那一般就是在市面上銷售的也是都會符合這樣子的標準嗎"},{"start":13224.474,"end":13243.468,"text":"要正面碰撞就是要做實車碰撞然後側撞也要用這個台車再做一次碰撞那電池都基本上都在車底下面所以這樣子一撞那個會不會滲漏然後甚至這個靜置完之後會不會起火這個都是在法規的要求裡面"},{"start":13244.068,"end":13260.862,"text":"是好我想這個也是民眾非常關心的這個就是電動車的一個安全性的問題然後那我們也當然希望就是說讓這樣的資訊也要讓國人能夠充分的能夠知道這樣子好謝謝我們加強宣導是謝謝陳樹業委員請何欣淳委員執行"},{"start":13274.131,"end":13278.274,"text":"首先今天有關公路法我有提修法的版本有修兩個條文我剛剛在法案說明的時候我還是再強調一次"},{"start":13300.852,"end":13315.578,"text":"第一個是希望有關營業的大型車輛如果未來造勢能夠保障我們受害者及其家屬配偶等的權益因為我們接受過太多的懲罰"},{"start":13316.678,"end":13340.468,"text":"如果說呢這個營業車輛肇事致人於死或重傷的時候通常因為呢營業車輛都是挖行挖行呢那這個業者呢到底會不會有脫產之嫌以逃避他未來的這個賠償責任我想這個是我們今天為什麼要修修這個法案的其中一個重點我不希望說受害人已經是這麼的怎麼辦受害人已經"},{"start":13344.19,"end":13363.464,"text":"遭受到生命的一個安全上的一個威脅甚至失去了生命他的家屬跟配偶跟受害人本身還得不到應有的公道及賠償的權益受保障我覺得這個很重要雖然我聽到你的回答是說這個可能在這個所謂的主動通知的一個時效問題我不知道次長說的意思是什麼"},{"start":13367.947,"end":13394.07,"text":"你另外又提到說現在本來就在做了所以不一定要透過修法我希望這個你是不是書面資料再回給我好不好第二個有關你認為可以同意的部分是在於這個有關我們交通的設施的這個行政單位要進入去檢測或者維修的時候巡查的時候要真的是有土地地主的同意這個雙括號的這個通知你是同意的嘛對不對是我們同意對好"},{"start":13395.231,"end":13409.123,"text":"那我希望記得先把我剛剛說的書面報告在一個禮拜之內給我你們現行如何做那如果不用透過修法就可以做那可以如何更精進我想要知道我也請公務局檢討如何更主動來通知"},{"start":13412.366,"end":13430.905,"text":"那接著 其他很多委員曾經關心過這個高領的一個交通設施跟環境安全的問題我注意到現象 我之前想要質詢 但是時間上來不及但是我又在今天整理了一下次長你知道我們現在全台灣的交通死亡事故"},{"start":13432.126,"end":13460.062,"text":"差不多差不多一半是高齡者以你們的這個所謂的道安總動員裡面114年1到2月的道路的交通事故的統計那高齡者的死亡呢211人那如果以跟去年的同期比較起來的話是微幅的死傷是增加的死傷是增加的那這個部分"},{"start":13461.508,"end":13480.175,"text":"市長你有注意到這個現象嗎這個我們長期有發現是有這個問題長期發現有這個問題嘛對不對好那全台的交通死亡死傷事故近半以上是這個高齡又有在增加那我們就必須要思考台灣現在即將邁入超高齡的社會"},{"start":13481.515,"end":13500.7,"text":"我們將近有20%以上會是高齡者我們的交通的環境 設施設備如何能夠守護長者的安全我覺得這很重要我們現在在講說要去除掉行人地獄的污名化但是我們同時也要兼顧在"},{"start":13501.84,"end":13524.437,"text":"不管是我們一直主張的要維護學童的行人安全或者是一般人的一個重大路口的行人的交通安全那長者的部分我覺得更是要去第一個在政策上還有在我們的執行面上還有我們的法規制度面上還有你們的一個設置標準上應該要把高齡"},{"start":13525.898,"end":13546.232,"text":"的這個觀點跟他們的交通使用習慣要納入考慮所以第一個在駕駛偏上面我們現在雖然要做高齡駕駛的換照制度但是呢曾經監察院糾正沒有全面實施管理只做半套所以呢我們有其他委員也出面來呼籲第一個"},{"start":13547.911,"end":13561.838,"text":"邁入超高齡社會我們如何保障高齡者的移動權以及兼顧他們的安全這個真的是刻不容緩的議題所以我們呼籲政府嚴明階段性的換照政策是不是應該要再更精進"},{"start":13562.918,"end":13588.5,"text":"第二個推動高齡者的再訓練課程的補助讓更多的高齡者的駕駛人他是可以透過教育再訓練適合他們的一個教育訓練的內容裡面讓他們能夠精進更保障自己安全跟行人的安全第二個交通網絡的配套措施的規劃尤其公共運輸系統如何友善高齡者"},{"start":13590.444,"end":13599.717,"text":"最後這些通通要做到才是強化我們高齡者移動權的保障對不對市長這您應該同意吧"},{"start":13601.089,"end":13626.226,"text":"有很多的項目其實我們目前就是正想辦法在研議中譬如說換照制度是不是公務局我的了解他們也在想說現在是75歲以上那是不是可以再下修等等的那甚至像這個訓練要補助啦或者是很多的我們也發現很多的高齡者他其實是無照的那無照的如何輔導他去考照那是不是也能夠像機車"},{"start":13628.227,"end":13643.545,"text":"現在機車的駕駛人有補助的方式那後面講到說以移動權的這部分高齡者的移動權我想我們也是我們屬於公共運輸重要的一部分對 公共運輸裡面如何友善高齡者嘛 是是幸福巴士在推動的一個方向或是剛才講的通用計程車我是呼籲交通部確實要去研議一下啦"},{"start":13646.408,"end":13661.675,"text":"那這些都要做那除了駕駛偏跟公共運輸環境再來就是行人我們在談論行人我跟次長講一個數字台中的行人死亡事故大概有六成是長者"},{"start":13663.136,"end":13674.909,"text":"這個不是我說的這是他們台中市政府這個交通局表示的所以呢他們認為呢因為他們有拋出到這個數據他們要第一個要精準塔級要宣導道安觀念那這個剛好跟"},{"start":13677.532,"end":13700.708,"text":"陳士凱部長在去年9月的時候也講到我們今年的目標要7%那7%的死亡率裡面我們呢這個要降低那首重的是要鎖定長者來做宣導可是到了今天我們看到2025的5月我們這個台中的這個交通局還表示行人死亡裡面有6成是長者這個宣導到底有沒有用啊 次長"},{"start":13707.559,"end":13726.606,"text":"這個對老人的宣導確實是有他的一個困難度因為老人有他自己的想法所以如何來讓這個市長你不會這樣說市長你不會這樣說不是長者有他自己的想法所以你覺得困難是你們宣導的方式到底有沒有到位你這一句話會讓人家"},{"start":13729.762,"end":13747.596,"text":"覺得質疑喔不是質疑,我跟委員講,我是講自己心生的感受我們爸爸,我要跟他說,我做次長要跟他說就很困難了我要說的是這個啦,我沒有實在講說,我們沒有,我是在講說對於老人的一個宣導,確實我們要再加把勁啦我是想要強調,只是我有一個疑惑"},{"start":13749.457,"end":13765.147,"text":"所以我們在這個對老人來講的話有所謂陸老師的宣導等等的結合林里長這樣的方式來做處理市長不要站在你們交通部的角度跟立場想說我只要去灌輸他們觀念"},{"start":13766.528,"end":13787.703,"text":"那能不能反向思考說我們如果把這個專業知識或是跟道安的相關的知識融入在生活當中用長者的角度他們聽得懂的角度他們能夠接受的角度去做宣導啦我們現在要精準改善嘛對不對我們現在陸老師在宣導其實都是採用這種方式在而不是教條式的我們教你怎麼怎麼"},{"start":13789.404,"end":13804.218,"text":"是透過他們自己相互之間形成一個類似像所以預算上我們支持嘛所以我知道在審預算的時候有其他委員對這一項預算是有意見的但是呢預算上我們都願意支持但是你要做好"},{"start":13805.439,"end":13827.916,"text":"做的成效如何我希望下一次我可以聽到比較精準的一個回答告訴我們這個對長者的宣導到底有沒有做到位那這個成效如何啦我希望看到的是不要再告訴我說在死亡人數裡面有餘六成是這個長者我也不要再看到說在道安總動員裡面的資訊告訴我們"},{"start":13830.598,"end":13846.411,"text":"原來說要宣導結果我們今年還是長者的這個死傷率是爬升的我覺得這個最重要的是要提醒拜託交通部相關單位對長者的交通的一個環境配套措施跟"},{"start":13847.412,"end":13864.907,"text":"一些該做的我們能夠做到位啦我接著要跟你講說除了宣導之外還有是你們現在可以做的就是行人的友善措施嘛第一個我們部長有宣示說要行人專用實相跟行人早開實相等等這個很好"},{"start":13867.182,"end":13892.845,"text":"以在交通部的建議裡面我爬梳到了你們是優先評估行人學童高齡者較多的入口來施行嘛那這個高齡者怎麼依據這個有媒體說在高齡社會裡面的紅燈到底該開幾秒是要等長輩還是逼他們走快一點這是一句這一句話就是體驗了我們現在在各大入口裡面看到長者"},{"start":13895.885,"end":13909.696,"text":"他過紅綠燈過那個路口的一個秒數到底能不能讓他們安全的過馬路如何讓長者安全的過馬路就是降低他們的死傷的機率嘛對不對 次長你同意嗎"},{"start":13911.854,"end":13931.203,"text":"我想跟委員報告這個因為路口啊或者標就是號誌要幾秒這還牽涉到路口多寬啊所以呢原則上呢路口如果太寬的話現在都會有庇護島的方式來設計希望就是說這個這個那另外呢我的了解我們也有宣導也有告訴"},{"start":13933.024,"end":13944.072,"text":"這個長者就說他大概依他現在的步伐大概幾秒的時候適合通過那如果在幾秒內他可能會過不去我們現在看到的這個在這個標誌標線然後自設制規則裡面還沒有看到長者的啦這個是你們要去再精進的啦"},{"start":13952.438,"end":13957.043,"text":"是不是我覺得這很重要啊你再來研議看看啦好不好我覺得這是用大數據或者是用我們的交通專業還有跟相關的老人長者團體大家一起研議可以去做出來看看"},{"start":13970.258,"end":13973.281,"text":"這個部分演繹 最後再給我10秒鐘我認為還有一件事是可以做的AI偵測 我們現在都在講AI AI數位那AI偵測事實上這個智慧路標也好或是路口的一個智慧監測也好現在是技術是OK的"},{"start":13988.317,"end":14013.348,"text":"那也有部分縣市的一些重大入口正在試辦試行那我們為什麼用這個也來可以第一個友善學童友善行人更應該友善高齡者我們長輩的行人那這個我認為提醒交通部也可以納入評估來看看能不能試行那如果試行成功的話可不可以擴大辦理啊"},{"start":14015.35,"end":14028.259,"text":"報告這樣的一個用導入AI來確保相關的交通安全的這樣的一個政策是部裡頭的一個政策所以現在我的了解不只是這裡頭提到的"},{"start":14030.7,"end":14045.13,"text":"台中像桃園等等台中桃園嘉義我現在爬出了一下都有在示範都有在示範就是說我們現在是在入口有這個智慧監測我的建議是包括行人專用的實相在入口裡面的一個智慧監測我們也可以運用"},{"start":14047.752,"end":14076.785,"text":"那人多的時候秒數要拉長或者是老人家他需要比較大的路口老人家走路他可能需要比較長的這個秒數那我們如果透過智慧監測AI的監測可以幫忙我們所有的行人都安全好不好這個我們可以來來研議看看來評估好不好以上謝謝謝謝何新淳委員請廖先祥委員執行"},{"start":14086.015,"end":14090.037,"text":"有關我提的停車場法 簡單說明一下如果說在充電樁有插在車上的情況下因為有時候你要去判斷是他有沒有在充電他有一些技術上的問題或故障問題"},{"start":14111.388,"end":14137.148,"text":"就算沒有在充電你要移置其實你也移置不了因為插著的時候一般來說我們充電樁的這個充電孔它都有卡榫你沒有你除非你用轉接頭不然的話它是拔不出來的所以說我希望後續的一些討論能夠聚焦在沒有在插充電這個插頭的情況下這樣子很明確違規的情況下不管是油車或電車的違規情況下那可不可以移置我也是主動通報希望後續針對這點討論那我今天想跟市長討論一下這個"},{"start":14141.131,"end":14162.814,"text":"罰單的部分交通違規罰單的部分交通違規罰單如果說我們民眾收到罰單都會有寫申訴的機制要嘛跟地方政府的交通事件裁決處處所或者是監理單位來做申訴我想確認一下我們這兩個單位在收到了之後他們大概都是會怎麼樣的來做後續的SOP"},{"start":14166.92,"end":14184.859,"text":"根本報告如果說這個是違規人那跟這個大案處罰機關做這個申訴的話那針對他這個就是說申訴的這個室友的部分或是說相關認為說有疑慮的事項的部分的話那原則上處罰機關大概就會正式函請這個舉發機關來查復做說明"},{"start":14187.801,"end":14194.666,"text":"對 我遇到大部分的情況都是就先函請給舉發機關做說明但一般來說舉發機關如果說認定違規是事實的話那我們這個裁決機關或監理單位他原則上都會尊重這個舉發機關那如果是這樣子的一個狀態的話我不曉得我們的裁決機關它到底存在的意義是什麼"},{"start":14209.457,"end":14218.382,"text":"如果說他不會我們期待的監理機關他應該會是一個一個拔光的一個機制如果說我們的舉發單位他對於法條的認知有誤解或者是對違規形態的有所判斷錯誤的話我們的裁決機關他應該是要有一個撤銷的一個功能吧就是他要去做一個裁判的功能他應該要有吧但實務上我們這樣遇到一般來說都是這個舉發機關怎麼說裁決機關就怎麼做這樣子"},{"start":14240.041,"end":14265.249,"text":"這個部分我大概跟委員我們再報告一下大概就是說針對這個陳警事項如果說是屬於市政的部分的話大概就會比較尊重這個舉發機關的查護那如果說是屬於適用條款的適當性的部分那如果說舉發機關很明顯他這樣子的一個這個違規行為所這個援引的條款是這個不得已的話那運作上這個舉發機關那個處罰機關"},{"start":14268.63,"end":14296.623,"text":"就會請舉發機關去變更適用的這個這個條款那如果說在本身這個裁決包括這個就是說處罰機關或原舉發機關如果認為說這樣子的違規行為適用處罰條例哪一個條款有疑慮等等的部分的話大概會有兩個管道第一個部分的話警察機關的部分大概會循著檢診系統到這個檢診署那檢診署如果認為說需要報部來示意的話就會有檢診署這邊報部來做"},{"start":14298.464,"end":14298.664,"text":"這個當然有現行的一個機制在"},{"start":14322.699,"end":14342.379,"text":"但是我為什麼會注意到這個問題就是我應該有些同仁知道我這過去一年來有還蠻關注在打方向燈這件事情上面什麼情況下要打什麼情況不用打那很多民眾檢舉就是檢舉民眾打方向燈當然變換車道就不用講就是穿越入口的一個形態那我遇到的問題是警察機關受理了"},{"start":14343.2,"end":14366.173,"text":"那警察認為違規他舉發了然後民眾申訴認為我應該不用打然後當然就跟這個裁決機關去做申訴裁決機關他也就尊重警察機關然後維持原判到最後我把這個交通部的解釋函就是一些相關的釋函給警察單位去了解方向燈到底怎麼打的時候警察單位才去測單那就變成說我們好像"},{"start":14369.746,"end":14393.306,"text":"我們照理來說開罰單應該適合兩個民眾檢舉有兩個把關機制嘛一個是受理機關警察機關第二個就是我們的裁決機關結果我們兩個裁決機關好像都沒有人就是在我講的這個案例就是打方向燈的事情上面好像兩個單位都對於這個法例的適用都有所誤解那導致這個罰單開出去那申訴也都不會過那我可不可以請就是單就"},{"start":14395.448,"end":14406.594,"text":"這個部分當然一部分是教育訓練一部分是執法同仁的教育訓練一部分是我們自己監理機關跟這個裁決處的一個教育訓練如果說警察誤解法令的時候我們的這個裁決機關應該要去糾正我們的同仁那有了糾正過了那之後警察知道因為警察要管的事情太多他不會對每一條法令都很熟悉應該是我們交通單位對法令最熟悉那我們有相關的一個撤銷罰單之後"},{"start":14421.561,"end":14443.333,"text":"那警察單位也會知道未來這個形態可能有違規或沒有違規嘛這才是一個可能系統性的一個檢討那短期間內啦短期間內我們那個警政署也一起上來好不好組長短期間內因為我近期雖然說我對這個打方向燈這件事情有做了很多的討論那警政署也有幫我發行給各地的警察機關針對打方向燈這件事情去教育同仁"},{"start":14443.493,"end":14464.161,"text":"但是還是有很多錯誤的罰單開出來我可不可以請我們的裁決機關或者是我們的舉發機關你們可不可以針對打方向燈的這個沒有打方向燈誤開的罰單去做一個通盤性的一個檢視我相信一年絕對有上千萬的一個違規的罰金是誤開的"},{"start":14465.862,"end":14493.321,"text":"你們那個警政署你這邊可不可以因為我最近還 你應該知道我講的這個我們常常討論這個東西嘛你們可不可以請某一個分怎麼樣來檢視過去錯誤的開的罰單因為很多民眾都沒有檢舉 都沒有申訴啊那個開沒有方向 沒有開方向燈喔這個大部分都是民眾檢舉違規的人啦對那剛剛委員所指的不是真的誤開的部分就是懂人對於法令不了解所開出來的這些罰單你們有沒有辦法通盤性的去檢討"},{"start":14496.304,"end":14513.552,"text":"這些單子我們可以整個調出來看看總共一年開了多少單子然後看看是不是比較有疑慮的我們再去檢視那個畫面好 我也不要造成警察同仁太大的負擔我一個請託啦你看他們做不做得到就是針對可能"},{"start":14514.272,"end":14529.612,"text":"今年1月1號開始到現在為止當然時間你們如果說認為太長的話你們可以提個題就這段時間針對未打方向燈被開罰單的部分可不可以請我們的警察同仁去檢視有多少是誤開的"},{"start":14531.788,"end":14549.64,"text":"這個部分我們回去從1月1號開始重新檢視這個回去我們對我們調出來再研究一下看看好那當然在檢視的前提下是要先讓我們的警察同仁對於打方向燈這件事情有一個正確的一個認知那不必要重新的教育宣導那另外我們的這個裁決機關至少我們公路局"},{"start":14550.6,"end":14578.688,"text":"我們是監理單位嘛我們可不可以針對所有民眾這個申訴的一個部分有關要不要打方向燈申訴的部分也從今年1月1號開始重新檢視看有多少是誤開的罰單那我們再給予主動的撤銷是 沒有問題我們會整個挑檔然後就整個陳情或者是那個舉發的這個太陽如果是跟原來布裡面的函式有不一致那需要撤銷的部分我們來處理好 那這個時間要需要多久"},{"start":14582.025,"end":14607.436,"text":"好 這個部分我們局原則上因為是非六都以外的監理站那我們自己可以一個月一個月嘛 對對對那警察 警政署這邊咧我們這邊也給一個月好嗎一個月 好 那就一個月好 謝謝 謝謝我們所有同仁 謝謝主席謝謝廖先祥委員請喜智傑召委執勤"},{"start":14616.906,"end":14626.556,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請次長好 請陳正事委員好"},{"start":14628.027,"end":14644.245,"text":"市長那個前瞻基礎建設改善停車問題的計畫現在用完了嗎經費目前的經費我的了解應該是已經執行完畢了已經執行完畢了應該是分配完畢了分配完畢那"},{"start":14647.749,"end":14672.165,"text":"還沒有交通部在邊境會在處理各縣市的停車問題我想跟委員報告一下有關這個停車的問題我想我們也了解委員很關心而且還有很多委員很關心所以我們大概做兩個方向在處理第一個是有關這個停車場的是因為要補助所以他有一個建設計畫那個要修正我們目前正在修正中"},{"start":14672.725,"end":14696.972,"text":"那另外一個是他這個要有相關的裁員因為已經分配完了嘛所以那個正在爭取相關的一個裁員那我的了解我們應該是放在前瞻的預算裡面前瞻新一期的前瞻就是在新一期的前瞻那經費有沒有說大概多少錢有沒有預估"},{"start":14697.552,"end":14709.204,"text":"我們大概原則上是60億但是最後是多少還是要看整個行政院的核心106年到114年總經費260億那您的60億是幾年我們是後續的4年4年的計畫後續的4年"},{"start":14719.682,"end":14746.688,"text":"因為畢竟停車問題當然委員也了解它是很重要但是它還是屬於地方事務所以原則上如果有相關的預算還是要整體預算來看所以先編列60億然後後續如果有不足我們再看怎麼樣來我是建議就是大家多考量我舉個例子現在騎樓停車檢舉是不是在全國都有很多這種案件"},{"start":14748.7,"end":14772.231,"text":"對不對那你知道這個造成地方多大的困擾嗎很像地方也都有相關的一個全國各縣市都有啦那就是停車很多民眾跟我們反映你停車空間給我我就不需要停了啊現在就停車空間真的不足"},{"start":14773.979,"end":14796.901,"text":"那停車空間不足的情況之下七樓停車記得當時應該是上個會期我曾經提過我們交通部也曾經有過那個給各縣市供地方政府的公文就是地方政府自行斟酌所以等於我們交通部把這個問題丟到地方政府"},{"start":14798.632,"end":14822.692,"text":"建議地方政府要預留多少因為想要行人的一個空間現在地方政府就是大部分都沒有確定我記得當時鄭文燦市長在桃園的時候曾經有說可以預留1.5米給機車停位但是汽車也是沒有所以全國可能都沒有任何地方政府說汽車可以停"},{"start":14826.318,"end":14848.41,"text":"騎樓這個目前是這個政策應該是困難對不對因為行人入權的關係我也知道我們必須重視行人入權但是呢你今天如果是六米巷六米巷騎樓不能停都會停到它的門口嘛兩輛車停在門口六米巷剩下幾米那你垃圾車過得去嗎"},{"start":14854.175,"end":14868.4,"text":"萬一有火災的時候救火車過得去嗎如果萬一有這種情況發生交通部會不會覺得如果因此而有人傷亡那交通部會不會心裡覺得痛呢"},{"start":14871.139,"end":14895.192,"text":"當然啦這個有關停車比較狹窄的這個巷道是那個但是有關那個太早的巷道如何讓這個救護車消防車經過但是你現在沒有相關的規範你現在的規範就是騎樓不能停嘛對多少米以下是不可以現在就是不行嘛現在就是我說的像六米道路啦"},{"start":14896.328,"end":14907.647,"text":"很明顯你就是不能停那你停在門口很明顯垃圾車救火車就是過不了像這種情況你覺得怎麼處理比較好"},{"start":14910.861,"end":14938.373,"text":"這分兩個啦就是說在那裡頭沒辦法停車的話確實是要找我們解決問題比較重要啦市長覺得應該怎麼樣可以解決這個問題像剛才特別提到的停車的問題就是停車空間要想辦法在這個附近去找停車空間嘛對啊你就是沒有位置讓我停啊各縣市各地區恐怕就是說你通通要停到我足夠的停車空間差不多都不夠嘛"},{"start":14939.692,"end":14960.441,"text":"那也是不可能的啦 其實這是整體交通政策啦還有另外一個是車輛的使用啦你停車公圈不夠讓我停 不是我不愛停我門口 騎樓不能停 因為現在路線我也要走我停在門口 不是停在騎樓裡面 兩台車停的六尾行過不過"},{"start":14966.394,"end":14982.331,"text":"我覺得我是這樣建議啦 其實交通部可以研議 在我的看法可以參考當然行人路權我們一定是非常的重視但是你現在六米行 六米行要走到你家的七樓 他們說機會沒大"},{"start":14988.325,"end":15013.542,"text":"所以六米巷有沒有可能江東部演繹一下不然你就留一米的寬度讓你停讓行人可以走然後呢你勉強停在因為現在我說的就是我們講是務實啦理想我們當然都懂啊一百趴騎樓不能停一百趴救護車救火車要可以過一百趴停車空位停車空間要夠"},{"start":15018.767,"end":15027.898,"text":"這個都是理想嘛那在理想的社會沒有辦法達到的時候我們務實的處理是不是交通部可以做一個研議跟思考"},{"start":15031.755,"end":15058.596,"text":"跟委員報告像這樣的一個也牽涉到那個那個道路空間的一個使用啦那個可能更多 比較簡單就是都沒人要搭啦我跟妳講喔 國土署那個啦 因為那個我們也希望局長可以思考一下這個問題就是說我們站在國家的角度這個問題到底要怎麼解決這個不是我今天在這邊提只是許智傑的問題我跟各位報告專國國管制"},{"start":15060.454,"end":15085.633,"text":"檢舉案件不斷市民不堪其擾我剛提過我要合法停車你沒有辦法給我我停在7樓一定會被開單我再舉個例子檢舉單人也很聰明現在警察如果去是開勸導單檢舉單人一到的時候說我可以告你吃案"},{"start":15092.23,"end":15121.019,"text":"好現在沒有人可以處理這件事情你們研議一下啦我現在我知道這個問題很頭痛全國的人民很多人因為這樣被開單的很頭痛那如果有沒有什麼務實的彈性的做法可以解決這個問題我的意思就是說比如說我在六米巷的騎樓停車"},{"start":15122.932,"end":15138.998,"text":"你只要留下一米可以讓行人通行那勉強我可以讓你停進去不開單那這樣子救火車救護車垃圾車可以通過有沒有這種可能"},{"start":15142.914,"end":15168.01,"text":"這個建議我想我們再跟國土署來討論一下因為那個相關的這個問題可能要全面性去考慮啦我是建議我們真的是替百姓做一下思考我說的全國受這種困擾的百姓最沒有 幾百萬最沒有問題啦我不知道多少 我沒有統計量啦但是真的是"},{"start":15169.332,"end":15196.892,"text":"交通局說檢察局會處理,檢察局說我們會盡量勸導然後有時候,經濟達人會說,我可以叫你吃然後呢,當然就不得不開單我六、七天聽到我們門口的七樓,半夜兩點我來給他開單我也是要告知啦啊我說的就是說,我們苦民所苦,我們去想一個到底有沒有一個比較務實的解套的辦法"},{"start":15198.038,"end":15203.307,"text":"我沒有做到一百分 但是我這樣做有可能九十分 八十分大家可以接受的範圍有一個"},{"start":15206.349,"end":15232.26,"text":"這個就是兩個極端取其中庸嘛那怎麼樣找到一個中庸的方法質量用中是不是請交通部想一下然後跟地方政府溝通一下可以解決很多百姓的問題我們會同這個內政部跟相關地方政府大家來討論一下希望您就是交通部重視這件事情給人民一個解決的辦法好不好我們來努力看看"},{"start":15233.7,"end":15233.92,"text":"請邱若驊委員執行"},{"start":15260.336,"end":15277.697,"text":"好謝謝主席主席我們請交通部陳好交通部陳正次委員好市長好市長本期今天有準備兩段影片我們先請市長一併來做觀看那第一段影片"},{"start":15290.233,"end":15310.522,"text":"好 接著第二段影片暫時找車位 發現路旁有一格繞回去要停 卻發現有人站在格子裡背心男揮手示意 現在說不能停 肩架是切過來 瞬間拳頭進窩"},{"start":15312.023,"end":15327.556,"text":"市長第一段影片呢是去年1月8日發生在高雄的人肉站車位的事件那第二段是在也是去年5月7號也同樣發生在高雄那請問市長這樣的以人身佔據公共停車格的行為您認為合不合理"},{"start":15329.266,"end":15342.275,"text":"那個暫居停車位用這種方式應該不是很恰當那同仁給我的相關是說處罰條例有相關的法條可以做出那我們目前可以依據哪一條法規對這樣的行為做出開罰你們要是這個條文嗎"},{"start":15351.146,"end":15353.268,"text":"那個警政署那個陳組長陳組長來你上來幫忙一下陳組長警政署陳組長"},{"start":15374.94,"end":15399.733,"text":"我先確認一下好不好我請你證書沒關係次長因為時間的關係我們現在目前沒有法可針對這樣的行為作出開罰那也只有道交條例第78條第一項第4款那與交通平凡之道路或是鐵路平交道附近任意奔跑追逐嬉戲或是坐臥蹲立然後然後足以影響到交通他才會處罰500元那再請問再請問次長一個問題喔那如果車位違規停車他的罰款金額範圍是多少錢"},{"start":15405.915,"end":15425.306,"text":"違規停車600到1200600到1200那還有並排停車是2400嘛那市長還有並排停車是2400那我這邊本期想要請問市長那你們發現以人身霸占公共車位他只罰500塊那這樣子民眾在這樣的邏輯下他會認為兩害相權取其輕然後他覺得500塊跟被罰1200比起來"},{"start":15432.389,"end":15460.166,"text":"這個舉證又那麼困難 所以這樣的情形不斷在發生那交通部可以做出什麼樣的積極作為來改變這樣的現象呢你要不要講一下委員 我認為如果是警察有報案的話 警察會到場處理是 那您提到的是有報的情況下那在難以舉證的情況 因為通常民眾報案那警察到現場 他們早就已經離開現場了那這樣子要怎麼來做 再做開罰呢"},{"start":15461.463,"end":15475.699,"text":"如果警察到 他沒離開 警察可能用設置法來處理但是他如果看到警察來就拔掉你說的是沒有離開的情況下嗎對那很多情況是他們報案 可是他們已經離開現場了那這樣怎麼來做開罰請針對本行的問題作答 謝謝"},{"start":15486.425,"end":15497.297,"text":"佔用車位的人 那個被佔用的人當然可以投訴如果他舉證 他要怎麼投訴人都已經沒有在現場了他是提供影片嗎 你們要開罰車組是嗎"},{"start":15499.495,"end":15527.798,"text":"所有的這個都要有事實啊你如果說違規事實沒辦法提出來就是說要相關的處罰我們現在看到的問題是他人肉戰車位他的處罰他不具嚇阻力那再加上舉發也困難所以交通部是不是要來演繹就是來針對民定的收證方式還有授權警方來做處理交通部可以做這樣子可以做這樣子可以再演繹嗎"},{"start":15528.567,"end":15551.563,"text":"我跟委員報告一下這個原則上如果說是屬於這個違反大陸交通管理事件的這個舉發第一個部分一定是有這個違規的事實嗎那第二個部分剛剛委員所謂講的授權舉發的部分是說那我們看到影片他確實有違規的事實啊就是說開放讓民眾檢舉是不是那目前有沒有開放給民眾做檢舉這條沒有 這條沒有"},{"start":15554.15,"end":15572.891,"text":"是不是可以納入56條的處罰的架構來做來做開罰的民眾檢舉的部分如果是真的要有車要有車牌號碼跟那個如果是人的那個部分的話我想這個這個實務執法上面像在56條這些相關違規停車的部分基本上不管是警察執法"},{"start":15573.191,"end":15588.686,"text":"因為我們剛才看到這兩段影片它不是經過它是有目的性的預留車位然後佔據這些車位然後再讓就是開車的人可以順利停進這個車位那這樣已經不單純是妨礙交通了它也是借行人之名行違規之 停車違規之詞"},{"start":15589.927,"end":15618.221,"text":"難道我們沒有法規委員這樣的一個行為是不是在處罰條例裡頭來處罰這可能要稍微探究一下因為剛才委員特別提到的像這兩個滑環的這個額度的比較一個是違規停車另外一個是比較偏向於佔用行人的去佔用那個那剛才又特別提到說這個可能又跟社會秩序是有關的我們提到違規停車是因為它現在有明確的開罰它是"},{"start":15619.561,"end":15633.689,"text":"600到1200可是針對人肉占據車位我們沒有法可以來做開罰所以我講說開罰是不是要開第一個是不是要開罰是不是要用什麼樣的法條來開罰這個其實不是要討論的不是說罰拿來當處罰可以來然後我們不做任何的處理嗎"},{"start":15643.77,"end":15655.079,"text":"對 所以我剛才特別提到說這樣的一個行為到底是要什麼樣的用什麼法條來處罰這個我想我們再跟警政庫來討論我們是不是可以用56條來做開罰呢"},{"start":15657.608,"end":15677.286,"text":"因為56條裡頭是一些違規行為是汽車違規停車的行為因為最後還是車輛停到停車格那我們是不是可以針對車主來做開罰所以那個車子他停進去他並沒有違反這些相關的規定是那一個占用的行為那前提也是因為比如說他們的親友先去占據車位了"},{"start":15679.029,"end":15694.843,"text":"我要跟委員 這樣的一個是不是可罰性 要怎麼罰這個可能要再討論一下所以這部分我跟委員報告一下我們想我們再跟警政署來討論現行的相關的這個法條用什麼樣的方式來做處理是比較恰當的OK 好 謝謝市長好 謝謝謝謝邱若驊委員"},{"start":15718.305,"end":15722.468,"text":"好 接著我們請林國成委員質詢好 請林國成召委好 謝謝主席 請我們陳正次還有林市長 黃市長請黃市長委員好好 市長還有市長"},{"start":15743.188,"end":15766.253,"text":"我想因為今天本院同仁也執行非常之多也就是我今天要來探討的就是通用計程車這個問題這個問題當然因為我看次長報告跟司長報告也就是保持現有的這些條文"},{"start":15767.495,"end":15786.474,"text":"那當然因為在本席的看法也就是通用計程車這個言義良善但是跟事實有所出入的時候我們就不得不要研究如何來應對好 接下來"},{"start":15790.036,"end":15816.385,"text":"這個當然城鄉差異很重要其實在六都裡面我認為沒有問題尤其台北市也完全沒有問題但是問題是出在城鄉偏遠的地方就會形成差異之非常大也就是六都適用法條不見得就適用城鄉差距的縣市"},{"start":15817.974,"end":15841.573,"text":"這點 我想 林市長你也同意這種看法市長 你也同意這種看法嗎同意喔 好我說實在的 來 接著下一張好這個啊 老人比例比啊 我要拜託市長跟兩位市長要稍微看一下聯名最高的縣市 就包括"},{"start":15842.657,"end":15870.904,"text":"苗栗也就是嘉義縣是第一台北市是第二南投是第三我們再來看一看到現在的車輛比的情況之下第一個沒有的地方南投還有連江還有苗栗那這些為什麼沒有那沒有就是你這些通用計程車這些政策"},{"start":15871.943,"end":15880.924,"text":"一 不露實二 為什麼沒有但是它又存在一個問題像嘉義縣它又全省"},{"start":15882.148,"end":15904.593,"text":"人口比例最高的地方可是他的通用計程車的比例來看都集中在六都吧都集中在六都所以我為什麼剛剛就會跟兩位我們次長跟兩位司長要去做探討的有些法令是適用"},{"start":15905.433,"end":15931.562,"text":"六都的有些偏遠地區你根本沒有用可是依照法令來講你們也沒有錯可是問題確確實實這些縣市的車輛為什麼他人他人口比例高可是為什麼他又分不到所以這個問題是值得市長跟市長去做這些通盤考量"},{"start":15932.142,"end":15957.856,"text":"所以你在做這個報告的時候你說保持原來的36條之一的不動那當然因為以現在情況看起來六都沒有問題啊這法令是適用的啊可是偏嚴的縣市是不適用的啊那要不要在這個部分要來加應該要如何去處理 下一張"},{"start":15960.339,"end":15989.498,"text":"所以啊我在想這是你們補助這是你們的政策那為什麼老人比例高的地方他為什麼得不到你們這些關愛這是對人家這個偏鄉的這些不公平的啊所以法令不足的地方法令不適用的地方要不要去修改把它加入複合這些縣市所需要的東西"},{"start":15991.38,"end":16007.979,"text":"市長我聽聽你的意見剛剛委員所提示的方向真的都蠻正確的確實就是說對於通用計程車基本上也是交通部推動的重點"},{"start":16009.881,"end":16037.343,"text":"對於高齡化的一個社會基本上就是通用計程車要來搭配這一個富岡巴士跟長照車輛把它重圍成一體來服務這些高齡的一個這個長輩那剛剛委員提到就是說有些縣市像這個南投雲林等等的部分其實這個縣市最重要的部分就是說如何讓地方政府帶領著這一個車行有意願來申請通用計程車那剛剛委員也提到一個重點因為確實這個"},{"start":16039.604,"end":16064.478,"text":"全台灣9萬多輛的計程車除了六都之外其實在其他縣市的一個這個數量相當相當的數量不會像六都這麼多那另外一個部分就是客源的一個客體啦所以我跟委員這個報告說重點就是在如何這個跟地方還有車廠這個合作有人願意來扮演這樣子的角色所以部裡面今年4月1號就把"},{"start":16065.058,"end":16086.572,"text":"這些以往就是說按趟這個一次補助50塊這樣定額的部分重新做檢討你的等待時間空時旅程像在縣市這個地方他可能這個車輛數不多但是空時旅程可能必須要從北港跑到哪邊那空時旅程這個部分都納入這個就是補助就是希望就是說"},{"start":16087.432,"end":16104.686,"text":"你通用計程車所提供的比一般計程車所需要付出去的成本這個部分其他部分都來補助通用計程車的數量基本上一定要搭配縣市的這個復康巴士共同整體來做考量"},{"start":16105.807,"end":16119.599,"text":"市長還有政事因為我常主張部長跟政事是在管政策但是這些法規研究可以凸顯一個問題也就是很多法令是適用六都"},{"start":16121.481,"end":16137.018,"text":"確確實實在整個偏鄉的地方真正需要的你們的法令是沒有把它涵蓋所以我要的就是林市長跟黃市長這裡你們兩師是最重要所以法令該檢討的該鼓勵的"},{"start":16138.78,"end":16156.592,"text":"你們既然有這個政策但是你們就拿了這個法令其他你們就不管那就會浪費你們補助他去做通用這些殘障也好啊或者弱勢團體老人家等等這個政策就只做三分之一啊"},{"start":16157.432,"end":16180.211,"text":"真正需要的人做不到 可是不需要的人 你們偏偏要去做那你如果要這樣 像台北市最多啊 500多輛啊可是問題 台北市財力是最好的那為什麼會佔用這些補助 你們都補助有錢人窮人你不去協調 不去補助就代表你的政策是不落實的"},{"start":16181.552,"end":16201.025,"text":"這點我要提醒政治你們要去監督一下這個部分要好好研究一下那最後我用一點點時間啦也就是電動車的充電樁這個問題其實高樓大廈你們現在所有的法令就只有就只有"},{"start":16202.771,"end":16220.796,"text":"請他們開辦但是你們監督華者這個部分是缺華的我要建議你們朝著這個方向也要自然有華者安全的問題要跟那個消防署要趕快因為現在我在看啊"},{"start":16222.096,"end":16247.814,"text":"欸 你們規定現在這個電動裝那裡面的防火蓋啊就只有做個表面喔我先跟你啟發一下根本沒有防火之效用這個要逼消防署要盡快去制定一些法則議題辦法所以我要的就是你們雖有法條"},{"start":16249.275,"end":16264.1,"text":"但是你們的監督跟整個華澤不明確的情況之下只有設立沒有監督跟沒有去預防這一點是比較給你一個建議就是還是要去研究一下好不好"},{"start":16266.042,"end":16291.57,"text":"剛才提到的有關電動窗的相關的安全也好或防火的安全也好這個呢因為都牽涉到是內政部或消防署等等的權責你們要主動啦我們會來跟他們協調和建議那另外我們了解那個其實內政部他也訂定了相關的一個指引來供地方政府來參考那經濟部也有相關的一個推薦好好拜託好謝謝"},{"start":16304.839,"end":16320.986,"text":"鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在鄭振銓 鄭振銓 鄭振銓委員不在高金素梅 高金素梅 高金素梅不在請葉延之執行主席好 麻煩請交通部次長"},{"start":16334.659,"end":16336.644,"text":"好交通部陳正事"},{"start":16340.59,"end":16364.659,"text":"委員好 市長剛好市長今天來我想跟市長問一下車輛安全因為您在2022年8月的時候有出席一個TNCAP一個實驗室的揭牌儀式當初會成立這個叫做台灣新車安全平等計畫實驗室當初會成立這個實驗室講的是說因為台灣需要符合國情的台灣新車安全平等"},{"start":16365.399,"end":16389.167,"text":"而且很重要因為我們要讓民眾購車的時候有客觀的參考而且要引導業界的向上提升所以必須要成立這個實驗室對用路安全或行人安全各方面產業的發展都至關重要不過我想跟您請教一下在目前為止這個成效如何因為我有看到相關的資料"},{"start":16391.068,"end":16416.449,"text":"這邊原本當初公布的計畫一年是要檢測八種車型一季是兩種車型然後一種車型是要檢測四輛可是在去年大概只有檢測了六種車型其中六種車型裡面有兩個是廠商自費售品換句話說如果廠商沒有自費的話可能這個實驗室只能檢驗四種車型"},{"start":16418.351,"end":16431.185,"text":"那這跟當初接牌所發下的好語就打了一半的折扣所以不曉得為什麼會這樣那個次長您當初參加這個實驗室然後目前成果您個人滿意嗎次長回答啦因為您之前參加的那個接牌儀式嘛 對啊"},{"start":16441.574,"end":16470.586,"text":"我跟委員報告有關TNCAP就是台灣的這個安全平等的這樣的一個制度它到目前為止我們認為它是成功的而且是有效的那當然相關的這個就是評比的車輛數不如就是說跟我們原來規劃有差距是因為相關預算的問題但是透過這個廠商自我的這個智慧來沒關係市長那你當初是說要"},{"start":16471.346,"end":16480.521,"text":"要八種車型現在只有四種車型為什麼你還會覺得是成功的已經你所檢驗的車輛已經比當初預估少一半了你還是認為是成功為什麼"},{"start":16483.899,"end":16503.859,"text":"我想整個來講的話我們本來就是這樣的一個制度其實就是希望整個業者也能夠參與所以現在業者也那業者如果所以你所以才好是有兩個所有要送行的車輛好沒關係即便是把業者參與的這兩個算進來還是只有達到當初預估的四分之三"},{"start":16506.311,"end":16526.844,"text":"而且這種東西當然多多益善嘛你們當初揭牌的時候媒體的報導是很大的而且說因為有做這個事情對於台灣的安全用路安全行車安全行人保護產業發展都有大大提升可是後來的成效不如當初的預估您還是覺得是滿意的好我再問一個問題因為我們時間有限"},{"start":16529.895,"end":16556.829,"text":"我看到你們當初說要做這個實驗目的是要給買車的人參考嘛對不對 他可以看那個評比安全係數怎麼樣來決定要不要買這款車可是你們選擇要去評鑑哪一台車是怎麼選擇呢是選擇當年度銷量最好的前幾名這本末倒置了嘛 很多人都已經買啦買了之後 然後忽然看到說哇 交通部的實驗室的評比不好那怎麼辦 趕快賣是不是那誰要買"},{"start":16559.676,"end":16582.843,"text":"所以你如果要做這個實驗 你應該是在新車上市之前你就要做啊怎麼會等到人家熱銷以後 再去選擇相關的來做實驗這有什麼意義 這個有達到任何的提升作用嗎該賣的都賣出去了啊為什麼會有這個機制 好像市長如果真的回答不了 請其他主管回答你乍聽之下會不會覺得很奇怪"},{"start":16585.445,"end":16609.828,"text":"我跟委員報告他當然是銷售上的排行但是因為銷售的時候剛才特別提到就是說他其實是讓民眾去選擇的時候不是啦 他都買了嘛他熱銷代表很多人買嘛很多人買之後你才去做實驗做完實驗之後他買了之後發現哇 這個評比那麼差那你有達到任何提示的作用嗎你是叫他以後開車小心一點喔"},{"start":16610.969,"end":16626.36,"text":"其實就是讓大家了解到說你應該要等到人家賣之前我跟你講大家聽到都覺得很奇怪如果我們要買車我們要選擇安全車但是希望說先看到數據再去買嘛哪有說我買了之後你再提醒我那你是叫我賣還是怎樣"},{"start":16632.484,"end":16642.788,"text":"剛剛委員所提到的TN CAP希望車廠在新車上市銷售的時候就能自己支援來做然後把這些相關的車輛安全我不是說希望車廠"},{"start":16644.048,"end":16671.021,"text":"不好意思我不是說實驗室我是說你的實驗室的目的是希望提醒買車的人要有安全的參考所以你們自己也有編預算那你編預算你採購的車輛或者是做撞擊的車輛應該要上次之前就要做提醒人家去在購買的時候做參考理論上應該是這樣可是你們去選擇要去購買哪個車輛或者是花實驗室去做因為一台車我看到要平件也不少錢一千多萬"},{"start":16671.801,"end":16686.69,"text":"然後結果你們是挑熱銷的人家都賣完了你做給人家參考有什麼意義這部分我跟委員報告一下在國外的部分基本上大概都是這個業者以熱銷為主業者就是說自己來申請這個業好了國外我知道嘛可是"},{"start":16687.17,"end":16707.034,"text":"在國內的部分就是因為因為國內這個制度才開始做這個推動那對於這個希望就是說因為這個商市以銷售量這邊來做這個這個就是排氣的話代表說他銷售比較後面還會有這個相當多的民眾來買這樣子的車輛"},{"start":16709.935,"end":16735.453,"text":"這不一定喔你這個一開始大家就買了後面後面就買中古的啊你現在只是讓買中古車的人有這樣的一個參考而已這個政府出錢來買這個車輛一定是後面一定騎乘不會fix out的一個這個車如果要花錢做這個東西啦一台車測試要一千多萬你要做就把它做到好啦你就好像有做就好不是要把它做到好啊當初接牌的時候發下的好語"},{"start":16736.855,"end":16752.963,"text":"結果成效打折扣然後現在還要再講說沒關係啦雖然他已經熱銷了後面還是會有人買嘛我們就提醒接下來那些人就好了至於說前面已經買車的人那就不關我的事那些人看到這個評比覺得很緊張可是他已經買了他到時候要轉手很困難"},{"start":16754.011,"end":16773.97,"text":"所以你如果錢花下去你要照顧的是所有買車的人嘛不是說只照顧那些比較後面買車的人所以這個機制是很奇怪那機制是鼓勵大家以後看到新車先不要買嗎先不要買然後等到出來之後再買免得先上車嗎你要做你錢花下去你就把它做到好這絕對是有調整空間啦"},{"start":16776.713,"end":16804.872,"text":"跟我們報告一下TNCAP的實景到現在剛剛市長講說已經看到他的成效就是說其實去年跟今年已經有這個好幾個車型來自願來申請這樣子的一個評價那這個新車他來申請自費申請的評價就是配合他新車這個上市那其實這個TNCAP推動最後的一個目標就是希望說在國內不管國產或進口的一個部分你要新車上市銷售的時候"},{"start":16805.632,"end":16833.537,"text":"都能夠來參加這個評論吧一個比較好的資訊這個介入給這個消費者來做這個車輛我跟你講你一個計畫怎麼樣都有成效啦百分之五的成效還是百分之十的成效啦現在我們是希望你錢花下去可以做到一百分嘛你一直跟我說我已經有五分了啊有十分了啊你這態度就是這樣啊我們是把問題提醒給你希望可以做到更好嘛八十分九十分嘛啊你一直說我有五分了嘛至少我有對兩題啊"},{"start":16835.702,"end":16843.548,"text":"這種態度我是比較不能接受啦希望交通部可以針對這個計畫因為這個不少錢啦可以再提出一個檢討啦好不好謝謝謝謝葉元之委員"},{"start":16849.551,"end":16869.699,"text":"登記執行委員經已發言完畢做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員以執行中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請交通部盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":16871.632,"end":16886.344,"text":"針對本日審查公路法以及停車場法等修正草案做以下的決議個案經另定期繼續審查本日會議結束 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麻煩請交通部次長好 交通部陳正次"},{"start":12.313,"end":36.402,"text":"委員好 市長剛好市長今天來我想跟市長問一下車輛安全因為您在2022年8月的時候有出席一個TNCAP一個實驗室的揭牌儀式當初會成立這個叫做台灣新車安全平等計畫實驗室當初會成立這個實驗室講的是說因為台灣需要符合國情的台灣新車安全平等"},{"start":37.122,"end":60.905,"text":"而且很重要因為我們要讓民眾購車的時候有客觀的參考而且要引導業界的向上提升所以必須要成立這個實驗室對用路安全或行人安全各方面產業的發展都至關重要不過我想跟您請教一下在目前為止這個成效如何因為我有看到相關的資料"},{"start":62.799,"end":87.333,"text":"這邊原本當初公佈的計畫一年是要檢測八種車型一季是兩種車型然後一種車型是要檢測四輛可是在去年大概只有檢測了六種車型其中六種車型裡面有兩個是廠商自費售品換句話說如果廠商沒有自費的話可能這個實驗室只能檢驗四種車型"},{"start":90.074,"end":102.898,"text":"那這跟當初接牌所發下的好語就打了一半的折扣所以不曉得為什麼會這樣那個次長您當初參加這個實驗室然後目前成果您個人滿意嗎次長回答啦因為您之前參加的那個接牌議事嘛 對啊"},{"start":113.314,"end":142.307,"text":"我跟委員報告有關TNCAP就是台灣的這個安全平等的這樣的一個制度它到目前為止我們認為它是成功的而且是有效的那當然相關的這個就是評比的車輛數不如就是說跟我們原來規劃有差距是因為相關預算的問題但是透過這個廠商自我的這個智慧來沒關係市長那你當初是說要"},{"start":143.067,"end":152.241,"text":"要八種車型現在只有四種車型為什麼你還會覺得是成功的已經你所檢驗的車輛已經比當初預估少一半了你還是認為是成功為什麼"},{"start":155.622,"end":175.581,"text":"我想整個來講的話我們本來就是這樣的一個制度其實就是希望整個業者也能夠參與所以現在業者也那業者如果所以還好是有兩個所有要收成的車輛好沒關係即便是把業者參與的這兩個算進來還是只有達到當初預估的四分之三"},{"start":178.032,"end":198.568,"text":"而且這種東西當然多多益善嘛你們當初揭牌的時候媒體的報導是很大的而且說因為有做這個事情對於台灣的安全用路安全行車安全行人保護產業發展都有大大提升可是後來的成效不如當初的預估您還是覺得是滿意的好我再問一個問題因為我們時間有限"},{"start":201.618,"end":228.437,"text":"我看到你們當初說要做這個實驗目的是要給買車的人參考嘛對不對 他可以看那個評比安全係數怎麼樣來決定要不要買這款車可是你們選擇要去評鑑哪一台車是怎麼選擇呢是選擇當年度銷量最好的前幾名這本末倒置了嘛 很多人都已經買啦買了之後 然後忽然看到說哇 裝潢部的實驗室的評比不好那怎麼辦 趕快賣是不是那誰要買"},{"start":231.4,"end":254.603,"text":"所以你如果要做這個實驗你應該是在新車上市之前你就要做啊怎麼會等到人家熱銷以後再去選擇相關的來做實驗這有什麼意義 這個有達到任何的提升作用嗎該賣的都賣出去了啊為什麼會有這個機制 黃培恩市長如果真的回答不了請其他主管回答你乍聽之下會不會覺得很奇怪"},{"start":257.165,"end":281.433,"text":"我跟委員報告他當然是銷售上的排行但是因為銷售的時候剛才特別提到就是說他其實是讓民眾去選擇的時候不是啦 他都買了嘛他熱銷代表很多人買嘛很多人買之後你才去做實驗做完實驗之後他買了之後發現哇 這個評比那麼差那你有達到任何提示的作用嗎你是叫他以後開車小心一點喔"},{"start":282.293,"end":298.092,"text":"沒有 其實就是讓大家了解到說你應該要等到人家賣之前你這樣 我跟你講啦大家聽到都覺得很奇怪如果我們要買車 我們要選擇安全車但是希望說先看到數據再去買嘛哪有說我買了之後你再提醒我那你是叫我賣還是怎樣"},{"start":304.206,"end":314.511,"text":"剛剛委員所提到的TN CAP希望車廠在新車上市銷售的時候就能自己支援來做然後把這些相關的車輛安全我不是說希望車廠"},{"start":315.772,"end":342.887,"text":"不好意思我不是說實驗室我是說你的實驗室的目的是希望提醒買車的人要有安全的這個參考所以你們自己也有編預算嘛那你編預算你採購的車輛或者是做撞擊的車輛應該要上次之前就要做提醒人家去在購買的時候做參考嘛理論上應該是這樣可是你們去選擇要去購買哪個車輛或者是花實驗室去做因為一台車我看到要平件也不少錢啊一千多萬啊"},{"start":343.527,"end":358.43,"text":"然後結果你們是挑熱銷的人家都賣完了你做給人家參考有什麼意義這個部分我跟委員報告一下在國外的部分基本上大概都是這個業者以熱銷為主不是 業者就是說自己來申請好啦 國外我知道嘛可是"},{"start":358.891,"end":379.756,"text":"在國內的部分就是因為因為國內這個制度才開始做這個推動那對於這個希望就是說因為這個商市以銷售量這邊來做這個就是排氣的話代表說他銷售比較好後面還會有這個相當多的民眾來買這樣子的車輛那至於說"},{"start":381.656,"end":407.169,"text":"這不一定喔你這個一開始大家就買了後面後面就買中古的啊你現在只是讓買中古車的人有這樣的一個參考而已這個政府出錢來買這個車輛一定是後面一定騎乘不會face out的一個這個程度你如果要花錢做這個東西啦一台車測試要一千多萬你要做就把它做到好啦你就好像有做就好不是要把它做到好啊當初揭牌的時候發下的好語"},{"start":408.579,"end":424.689,"text":"結果成效打折扣然後現在還要再講說沒關係啦雖然他已經熱銷了後面還是會有人買嘛我們就提醒接下來那些人就好了至於說前面已經買車的人那就不關我的事那些人看到這個評比覺得很緊張可是他已經買了他到時候要轉手很困難"},{"start":425.751,"end":445.685,"text":"所以你如果錢花下去你要照顧的是所有買車的人嘛不是說只照顧那些比較後面買車的人所以這個機制是很奇怪這個機制是鼓勵大家以後看到新車先不要買嗎先不要買然後等到出來之後再買免得先上車嗎你要做你錢花下去你就把它做到好"},{"start":446.945,"end":459.993,"text":"這絕對是有調整空間跟我們報告一下TN 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out……"],["葉委員元之：你如果要花錢做這個東西，一臺車測試要一千多萬，你要做就把它做到好啦！你這樣好像有做就好，不是要把它做到好。當初揭牌的時候發下豪語，結果成效打折扣，現在還說：沒關係啦，雖然它已經熱銷了，後面還是會有人買嘛，我們就提醒接下來那些人就好了。至於前面已經買車的人，那就不關我的事。已經買車的人看到這個評比覺得很緊張，可是他已經買了，到時候要轉手很困難。你如果錢花下去，你要照顧的是所有買車的人嘛！不是只照顧那些比較後面買車的人。這個機制很奇怪，難道是鼓勵大家以後看到新車先不要買嗎？先不要買，等到評比出來之後再買，避免先上車嗎？你要做、你錢花下去就把它做到好，這絕對有調整空間。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，剛剛次長講了，TNCAP實行到現在已經看到它的成效，去年和今年已經有好幾個車型自願來申請這樣的評價，新車自費來申請評價就是配合新車上市，其實TNCAP推動的最後目標就是希望在國內，不管國產的或進口的，新車上市銷售的時候，都能夠來參加這個評等，把比較好的資訊揭露給消費者做車輛的……"],["葉委員元之：我跟你講，一個計畫怎麼樣都有成效，只是5%的成效還是10%的成效，現在我們是希望你錢花下去可以做到100分，你一直跟我說，已經有5分了、有10分了。你的態度就是這樣，我們是把問題提醒給你，希望可以做到更好，80分、90分，你一直說有5分了、至少有對2題。這種態度我比較不能接受，希望交通部可以針對這個計畫再提出檢討，因為這個花不少錢，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢。作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請交通部儘速以書面答復。","針對本日審查公路法以及停車場法等修正草案，作以下決議：各案均另定期繼續審查。","本日會議結束，散會。謝謝媒體，謝謝官員，謝謝。","散會（13時11分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-11","speakers":["林國成","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","許智傑","陳素月","蔡其昌","何欣純","林俊憲","張啓楷","廖先翔","李昆澤","游顥","黃健豪","陳雪生","魯明哲","徐富癸","邱若華","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員吳宗憲等17人、(二)委員賴士葆等28人、(三)委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具「人\n工智慧基本法草案」及(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工智慧發展及管理條例草案」案；二、審查\n( 一) 委員林俊憲等23 人擬具「公路法第二十七條、第二十八條及第七十五條條文修正草案」、\n(二)委員陳冠廷等18人、(三)委員徐富癸等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」、\n(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「公路法第三十三條條文修正草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團、(六)委\n員馬文君等19 人、( 七) 委員邱若華等17 人分別擬具「公路法第三十九條之一條文修正草案」、\n(八)委員何欣純等18人擬具「公路法第四十六條及第六十條之一條文修正草案」、(九)委員王義\n川等16人擬具「公路法第六十五條條文修正草案」及(十)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「公路法第七十\n二條條文修正草案」案；三、審查 ( 一 ) 委員林俊憲等 22 人擬具「停車場法第四條條文修正草\n案」、(二)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」及(三)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「停車場法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。【本日會議僅針對開會事由二及三進行合併詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1144802_00001"}}},{"id":"161222","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161222","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d52d78104120471d8cf988fdfbeb5b6687585e0b6e5cd30ed737c5064231c774fdb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"12:52:23 - 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謝謝主席 請我們陳政次還有林市長 黃市長請黃市長我也好好 市長還有市長我想因為今天本院同仁也執行非常之多也就是我今天要來探討的就是通用計程車這個問題"},{"start":28.24,"end":45.937,"text":"那這個問題啊 當然 因為我看次長報告跟司長報告啊 也就是保持現有的這些條文那當然 因為在本席的看法 也就是通用計程車 這個"},{"start":48.516,"end":59.802,"text":"言義良善但是跟事實有所出入的時候我們就不得不要研究如何來應對好 接下來"},{"start":63.364,"end":89.71,"text":"這個當然城鄉差異很重要其實在六都裡面我認為沒有問題尤其台北市也完全沒有問題但是問題是出在城鄉偏遠的地方就會形成差異之非常大也就是六都適用法條不見得就適用城鄉差距的縣市"},{"start":91.304,"end":114.9,"text":"這點我想林市長你也同意這種看法市長你也同意這種看法嗎同意喔好我說實在的來進行下一張好這個啊老人比例比啊我要拜託市長跟兩位市長要稍微看一下聯名最高的縣市就包括"},{"start":115.984,"end":144.229,"text":"苗栗也就是嘉義縣是第一台北市是第二蘭頭是第三我們再來看一看到現在的車輛比的情況之下第一個沒有的地方蘭頭還有連江還有苗栗那這些為什麼沒有那沒有就是你這些通用計程車這些政策"},{"start":145.27,"end":153.429,"text":"一不露實二為什麼沒有但是他又存在一個問題像嘉義縣他又前審"},{"start":155.478,"end":177.939,"text":"人口比例最高的地方可是他的通用計程車的比例來看都集中在六都吧都集中在六都所以我為什麼剛剛就會跟兩位我們次長跟兩位司長要去做探討的有些法令是適用"},{"start":178.76,"end":204.89,"text":"六都的有些偏遠地區你根本沒有用可是依照法令來講你們也沒有錯可是問題確確實實這些縣市的車輛為什麼他人他人口比例高可是為什麼他又分不到所以這個問題是值得市長跟市長去做這些通盤考量"},{"start":205.47,"end":231.181,"text":"所以你在做這個報告的時候你說保持原來的36條之一的不動那當然因為以現在情況看起來六都沒有問題啊這法令是適用的啊可是偏嚴的縣市是不適用的啊那要不要在這個部分要來加應該要如何去處理 下一張"},{"start":233.669,"end":262.828,"text":"所以啊我在想這是你們補助這是你們的政策那為什麼老人比例高的地方他為什麼得不到你們這些關愛這是對人家這個偏鄉的這些不公平的啊所以法令不足的地方法令不適用的地方要不要去修改把它加入複合這些縣市所需要的東西"},{"start":264.69,"end":281.306,"text":"市長我聽聽你的意見剛剛委員所提示的方向真的都蠻正確的確實就是說對於通用計程車基本上也是交通部推動的重點"},{"start":283.348,"end":310.668,"text":"對於高齡化的一個社會基本上就是通用計程車要來搭配這一個富岡巴士跟長照車輛把它重圍成一體來服務這些高齡的一個這個長輩那剛剛委員提到就是說有些縣市像這個南投雲林等等的部分其實這個縣市最重要的部分就是說如何讓地方政府帶領著這一個車行有意願來申請通用計程車那剛剛委員也提到一個重點因為確實這個"},{"start":312.929,"end":337.823,"text":"全台灣9萬多輛的計程車除了六都之外其實在其他縣市的一個這個部分這個數量相當相當的數量不會像六都這麼多那另外一個部分就是客源的一個客體啦所以我跟委員這個報告說重點就是在如何這個跟地方還有車廠這個合作有人願意來扮演這樣子的角色所以部裡面今年4月1號就把"},{"start":338.383,"end":359.902,"text":"這些以往就是說按趟這個一次補助50塊這樣定額的部分重新做檢討你的等待時間空時旅程像在縣市這個地方他可能這個車輛數不多但是空時旅程可能必須要從北港跑到哪邊那空時旅程這個部分都納入這個就是補助就是希望就是說"},{"start":360.743,"end":378.013,"text":"你通用計程車所提供的比一般計程車所需要付出去的成本這個部分其他部分都來補助然後通用計程車的數量基本上一定要搭配縣市的這個復康巴士共同整體來做考量"},{"start":379.134,"end":392.907,"text":"市長還有政事因為我常主張部長跟政事是在管政策但是這些法規研究可以凸顯一個問題也就是很多法令是適用六都"},{"start":394.809,"end":410.346,"text":"確確實實在整個偏鄉的地方真正需要的你們的法令是沒有把它涵蓋所以我要的就是林市長跟黃市長這裡你們兩師是最重要所以法令該檢討的該鼓勵的"},{"start":412.108,"end":429.92,"text":"你們既然有這個政策但是你們就拿了這個法令其他你們就不管那就會浪費你們補助他去做通用這些殘障也好啊或者弱勢團體老人家等等這個政策就只做三分之一啊"},{"start":430.76,"end":453.54,"text":"真正需要的人做不到 可是不需要的人 你們偏偏要去做那你如果要這樣 像台北市最多啊 500多輛啊可是問題 台北市財力是最好的那為什麼會佔用這些補助 你們都補助有錢人窮人你不去協調 不去補助就代表你的政策是不落實的"},{"start":454.881,"end":474.353,"text":"這點我要提醒政治你們要去監督一下這個部分要好好研究一下那最後我用一點點時間也就是電動車的充電樁這個問題其實高樓大廈你們現在所有的法令就只有就只有"},{"start":476.099,"end":494.107,"text":"請他們開辦但是你們監督華澤這個部分是缺華的我要建議你們朝著這個方向也要自然有華澤安全的問題要跟那個消防署要趕快因為現在我在看啊"},{"start":495.407,"end":521.142,"text":"欸 你們規定現在這個電動裝那裡面的防火蓋啊就只有做個表面喔我先跟你啟發一下根本沒有防火之效用這個要逼消防署要盡快去制定一些法則議題辦法所以我要的就是你們雖有法條"},{"start":522.603,"end":537.948,"text":"但是你們的監督跟整個華澤不明確的情況之下只有設立沒有監督跟沒有去預防這一點是比較給你一個建議就是還是要去研究一下好不好 政治"},{"start":539.369,"end":564.901,"text":"剛才提到的有關電動窗的相關的安全也好或防火的安全也好這個呢因為都牽涉到是內政部或消防署等等的權責你們要主動啦你們要主動啦好不好我們會來跟他們協調和建議那另外我們了解那個其實內政部他也訂定了相關的一個指引來供地方政府來參考那經濟部也有相關的一個推薦好好拜託好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":934,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（12時52分）謝謝主席，請我們陳政次，還有林司長、黃司長。"],["主席：請陳政次，請黃司長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["林委員國成：次長還有司長好。我想今天本院同仁也質詢非常之多，我今天要探討的就是通用計程車這個問題。這個問題，當然，我看次長跟司長的報告就是保持現有的這些條文，本席的看法是通用計程車政策原意良善，但是跟事實有出入的時候，我們就不得不研究如何應對。這個當然城鄉差異很重要，其實我認為在六都裡面沒有問題，尤其臺北市也完全沒有問題，但是問題是在城鄉偏遠地區就會形成非常大的差異，也就是六都適用的法條不見得就適用城鄉差距的縣市，這一點我想林司長也同意這種看法。次長，你也同意這種看法嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：同意。"],["林委員國成：同意喔，好。我說實在的，來，進行下一張，老人比例這部分我拜託次長跟兩位司長稍微看一下，老年人口比例最高的縣市，嘉義縣第一，臺北市第二，南投是第三。我們再來看一看全國通用計程車登記車輛比的情況，登記數為零的地方有南投、連江還有苗栗，這些地方為什麼沒有？就是因為通用計程車的政策一、不落實；二、為什麼沒有？它又存在一個問題，像嘉義縣又是全省人口比例最高的地方，可是以它通用計程車的比例來看，都集中在6都。所以我為什麼剛剛跟次長及兩位司長要去探討，有些法令是適用6都的，而有些偏遠地區，根本沒有用。依照法令來講你們也沒有錯，可是問題是，確確實實地這些縣市的車輛，它人口比例高，但為什麼它又分不到？所以這個問題值得次長跟司長通盤考量。你在報告的時候說保持原來的，第三十六條之一不動。當然以現在的情況看起來，6都沒有問題，這法令是適用的，可是偏遠縣市是不適用的，要不要在這個部分來加？應該要如何處理？","所以我在想，這是你們的補助、這是你們的政策，老人比例高的地方為什麼得不到你們這些關愛？這對偏鄉是不公平的！所以法令不足的地方、法令不適用的地方要不要修改，把它加入符合這些縣市所需要的東西？司長，我聽聽你的意見。"],["林司長福山：報告委員，剛剛委員所提示的方向真的都蠻正確，確實通用計程車也是交通部推動的一個重點，對於高齡化社會，基本上通用計程車要搭配復康巴士跟長照車輛，把它綜合成一體來服務這些高齡長輩。","剛剛委員提到，有些縣市像南投、雲林等等部分，其實這些縣市最重要的就是，如何讓地方政府帶領這一個車行，有意願來申請通用計程車。剛剛委員也提到一個重點，因為確實全臺灣九萬多輛計程車出了6都之外，其實在其他縣市的數量不會像6都這麼多，另外一個部分就是客源的課題。我跟委員報告，重點就在如何跟地方還有車行合作，有人願意扮演這樣子的角色。所以部裡面今年4月1號就把這些以往按趟一次補助50塊的定額部分重新檢討，你的等待時間、空駛里程，像在縣市這個地方可能車輛數不多，但是空駛里程，可能必須要從北港跑到哪邊，空駛里程這部分都納入補助，就是希望通用計程車比一般計程車要付出的成本這個部分，行政部門都補助。然後通用計程車的數量，基本上一定要搭配縣市的復康巴士共同整體考量。"],["林委員國成：好啦！司長還有政次，我常主張，部長跟政次是在管政策，但是這些法規研究可以凸顯一個問題，也就是很多法令是適用6都，確確實實在整個偏鄉地方真正需要的，你們的法令沒有涵蓋。所以我要的就是，林司長跟黃司長這裡，你們兩司最重要，法令該檢討、該鼓勵的，你們既然有這個政策，但是你們就拿了這個法令，其他的你們就不管，那就會浪費你們補助他去做通用的，對於殘障者也好，或者弱勢團體、老人家等等的這個政策，就只做三分之一！對真正需要的人做不到，可是對不需要的人，你們偏偏要去做，你如果要這樣，像臺北市最多，五百多輛！可是問題在於，臺北市財力是最好的，那為什麼會占用這些？你們都補助有錢人，窮人你不去協調、不去補助，就代表你的政策是不落實的。這一點我要提醒政次，你們要去監督一下，這個部分要好好研究一下。","最後，我用一點時間，關於電動車充電樁的問題，對於高樓大廈你們現在所有的法令就只有請他們開辦，但是你們監督、罰則的部分是缺乏的。我建議你們朝著這個方向，充電樁自燃也要有罰則，安全的問題要跟消防署趕快……因為我看你們現在規定電動樁裡面的防火蓋，就只有做個表面！我先跟你舉發，根本沒有防火效用，這個要逼消防署儘快制定一些罰則、辦法。我要講的就是，你們雖有法條，但是你們的監督跟整個罰則不明確的情況之下，只有設立、沒有監督跟沒有預防，這一點給你們建議，政次，還是要去研究一下，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：剛才提到有關電動樁相關的安全也好，或防火的安全也好，都牽涉到內政部或消防署等等的權責。"],["林委員國成：你們要主動啦！好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們會來跟他們協調或建議。另外依我們的了解，其實內政部也訂定了相關的指引，供地方政府參考，經濟部也有相關的規定。"],["林委員國成：好，拜託。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員。"],["主席（林委員國成）：鄭天財、鄭天財，鄭天財委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","高金素梅、高金素梅，高金素梅不在。","請葉元之質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-11","speakers":["林國成","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","許智傑","陳素月","蔡其昌","何欣純","林俊憲","張啓楷","廖先翔","李昆澤","游顥","黃健豪","陳雪生","魯明哲","徐富癸","邱若華","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員吳宗憲等17人、(二)委員賴士葆等28人、(三)委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具「人\n工智慧基本法草案」及(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工智慧發展及管理條例草案」案；二、審查\n( 一) 委員林俊憲等23 人擬具「公路法第二十七條、第二十八條及第七十五條條文修正草案」、\n(二)委員陳冠廷等18人、(三)委員徐富癸等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」、\n(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「公路法第三十三條條文修正草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團、(六)委\n員馬文君等19 人、( 七) 委員邱若華等17 人分別擬具「公路法第三十九條之一條文修正草案」、\n(八)委員何欣純等18人擬具「公路法第四十六條及第六十條之一條文修正草案」、(九)委員王義\n川等16人擬具「公路法第六十五條條文修正草案」及(十)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「公路法第七十\n二條條文修正草案」案；三、審查 ( 一 ) 委員林俊憲等 22 人擬具「停車場法第四條條文修正草\n案」、(二)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」及(三)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「停車場法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。【本日會議僅針對開會事由二及三進行合併詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1144802_00001"}}},{"id":"161221","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161221","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d525b36633dfc3a70f1988fdfbeb5b6687585e0b6e5cd30ed730a24d4c92cf601975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"12:44:31 - 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接著第二段影片"},{"start":56.818,"end":72.348,"text":"市長第一段影片呢是去年1月8日發生在高雄的人肉站車位的事件那第二段是在也是去年5月7號也同樣發生在高雄那請問市長這樣的以人身佔據公共停車格的行為您認為合不合理"},{"start":74.062,"end":86.991,"text":"那個暫居停車位用這種方式應該不是很恰當那同仁給我的相關是說處罰條例有相關的法條可以做出那我們目前可以依據哪一條法規對這樣的行為做出開罰你們要是這個條文嗎"},{"start":96.044,"end":99.307,"text":"要不要上警政署那個警政署那個陳組長陳組長來你上來幫忙一下陳組長警政署陳組長"},{"start":119.775,"end":144.533,"text":"我先確認一下好不好我請你證書你會不會聊一下因為時間的關係我們現在目前沒有法可針對這樣的行為作出開罰那也只有道交條例第78條第一項第4款那與交通平凡之道路或是鐵路平交道附近任意奔跑追逐西西或是坐臥蹲立然後足以影響到交通他才會處罰500元那再請問再請問次長一個問題喔那如果車位違規停車他的罰款金額範圍是多少錢"},{"start":150.71,"end":170.101,"text":"維規停車600到1200600到1200那還有並排停車是2400嘛那市長還有並排停車是2400那我這邊本期想要請問市長那你們發現以人身霸占公共車位他只罰500塊那這樣子民眾在這樣的邏輯下他會認為兩害相權取其輕然後他覺得500塊跟被罰1200比起來"},{"start":177.184,"end":204.961,"text":"這個舉證又那麼困難所以這樣的情形不斷在發生那交通部可以做出什麼樣的積極作為來改變這樣的現象呢你會不會講一下委員 我認為如果是警察有報案的話警察會到場處理是 那您提到的是有報的情況下那在難以舉證的情況因為通常民眾報案那警察到現場他們早就已經離開現場了那這樣子要怎麼來做 在做開罰呢"},{"start":206.258,"end":220.494,"text":"如果警察到 他沒離開警察可能用設置法來處理但是他如果看到警察來就拔掉你說的是沒有離開的情況下嗎對那很多情況是他們報案 可是他們已經離開現場了那這樣怎麼來做開罰請針對本行的問題作答 謝謝"},{"start":231.22,"end":242.092,"text":"佔用車位的人 那個被佔用的人當然可以投訴啊如果他舉證 他要怎麼投訴人都已經沒有在現場了 他是提供影片嗎 你們要開罰車組是嗎"},{"start":244.29,"end":272.593,"text":"所有的這個都要有事實啊你如果說違規事實沒辦法提出來就是說要相關的處罰我們現在看到的問題是他人肉戰車位他的處罰他不具嚇阻力那再加上舉發也困難所以交通部是不是要來演繹就是來針對民定的收證方式還有授權警方來做處理交通部可以做這樣子可以做這樣子可以再演繹嗎"},{"start":273.359,"end":296.358,"text":"我跟委員報告一下這個原則上如果說是屬於這個違反大陸交通管理事件的這個舉發第一個部分一定是有這個違規的事實嗎那第二個部分剛剛委員所謂講的授權舉發的部分是說那我們看到影片他確實有違規的事實啊就是說開放讓民眾檢舉是不是那目前有沒有開放給民眾做檢舉這條沒有 這條沒有"},{"start":298.925,"end":317.684,"text":"那我們是不是可以納入56條的處罰的架構來做來做開罰的民眾檢舉的部分如果是真的要有車要有車牌號碼跟那個如果是人的那個部分的話我想這個這個實務執法上面像在56條這些相關違規停車的部分基本上不管是警察執法"},{"start":317.984,"end":333.475,"text":"因為我們剛才看到這兩段影片它不是經過它是有目的性的預留車位然後佔據這些車位然後再讓就是開車的人可以順利停進這個車位那這樣已經不單純是妨礙交通了它也是借行人之名行違規之時停車違規之時"},{"start":335.757,"end":363.015,"text":"委員這樣的一個行為是不是在處罰條例裡頭來來處罰這可能要要要稍微探究一下因為剛才委員特別提到的像這兩個花園的這個額度的比較一個是違規停車另外一個是比較偏向於佔用行人的去佔用那個那個那剛才又特別提到說這個可能又跟社會秩序是有關的所以我們提到違規停車是因為他現在有有明確的開罰他是"},{"start":364.356,"end":378.887,"text":"600到1200可是針對人肉占據車位我們沒有法可以來做開罰所以我講說開罰是不是要開第一個是不是要開罰是不是要用什麼樣的法條來開罰這個其實不是要討論的不是說把他拿來當處罰他以來然後我們不做任何的處理嗎"},{"start":388.565,"end":399.874,"text":"對 所以我剛才特別提到說這樣的一個行為到底是要什麼樣的用什麼法條來處罰這個我想我們再跟警政庭再討論一下我們是不是可以用56條來做開罰呢"},{"start":402.403,"end":422.699,"text":"因為56條裡頭是一些違規行為是汽車違規停車的行為因為最後還是車輛停到停車格那我們是不是可以針對車主來做開罰所以那個車子他停進去他並沒有違反這些相關的規定是那一個占用的行為那前提也是因為譬如說他們的親友先去占據車位了"},{"start":423.819,"end":439.215,"text":"我要跟委員 這樣的一個是不是可罰性 要怎麼罰這個可能要再討論一下所以這部分我跟委員報告一下我們想我們再跟警政署來討論現行的相關的法條用什麼樣的方式來做處理是比較恰當的OK 好 謝謝市長好 謝謝謝謝邱若驊委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":878,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（12時44分）謝謝主席，主席，我們請交通部陳次長。"],["主席：交通部陳政次。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：次長好。次長，本席今天有準備兩段影片，我先請次長一併來觀看，現在請先看第一段影片。","（播放影片）"],["邱委員若華：接著請看第二段影片。","（播放影片）"],["邱委員若華：次長，第一段影片是去年1月8日發生在高雄的人肉占車位的事件，第二段在去年5月7號也同樣發生在高雄，請問次長，這種以人身占據公共停車格的行為，您認為合不合理？"],["陳次長彥伯：用這種方式占據停車位應該不是很恰當，同仁跟我說，處罰條例有相關的法條可以處理。"],["邱委員若華：是，那我們目前可以依據哪一條法規對這樣的行為開罰？"],["陳次長彥伯：是這個條文嗎？警政署要不要來說明一下？"],["主席：警政署陳組長，來，你上來幫忙一下。"],["邱委員若華：請陳組長。"],["主席：請警政署陳組長。"],["陳次長彥伯：我們先確認一下，好不好？我請警政署來說明一下。"],["邱委員若華：沒關係，次長，因為時間的關係。我們目前沒有法可針對這樣的行為開罰，也只有道交條例第七十八條第一項第四款規定，行人於交通頻繁之道路或鐵路平交道附近任意奔跑、追逐、嬉戲或坐、臥、蹲、立，足以阻礙交通，才會處罰五百元。再請問次長一個問題，如果車輛違規停車，他的罰款金額範圍是多少錢？違規停車。"],["陳次長彥伯：六百到一千二。"],["邱委員若華：六百到一千二，還有併排停車是兩千四嘛。"],["陳次長彥伯：就是乘以二。"],["邱委員若華：本席想要請問次長，你有沒有發現，以人身霸占公共車位只罰五百塊，民眾在這樣的邏輯下會認為兩害相權取其輕，他覺得被罰五百塊跟被罰一千二比起來，加上前者舉證又那麼困難，所以這樣的情形不斷地發生，交通部有什麼積極作為可以改變這樣的現象呢？"],["陳組長明志：委員，我認為如果有報案的話，警察會到場處理，我想……"],["邱委員若華：是，您提到的是有報案的情況下，但在難以舉證的情況，因為通常民眾報案，警察到現場時，他們早就已經離開現場了，這樣要怎麼開罰呢？"],["陳組長明志：如果警察到他們沒離開，警察可能用社秩法處理，但是如果他看到警察來就跑掉……"],["邱委員若華：你說的是沒有離開的情況下嘛。"],["陳組長明志：對。"],["邱委員若華：很多情況是民眾報案，可是占位的人已經離開現場了，這樣如何開罰？請針對本席的問題作答，謝謝。"],["陳組長明志：有人占用車位，被占用的人當然可以投訴，如果他舉證……"],["邱委員若華：他要怎麼投訴？人都已經沒有在現場了，他是提供影片嗎？你們要開罰車主，是嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：委員，所有的處罰都要有事實，如果違規事實沒辦法提出來，要說相關的處罰的話……"],["邱委員若華：我們現在看到的問題是，人肉占車位的處罰不具嚇阻力，然後再加上舉發也困難，所以交通部是不是也要研議明定蒐證方式，還有授權警方處理？交通部可以再研議嗎？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，原則上如果是屬於違反道路交通管理事件的舉發，第一個部分一定是有違規的事實；第二個部分，剛剛委員所講的授權舉發是說……"],["邱委員若華：就我們看到的影片，他確實有違規的事實啊！"],["林司長福山：開放讓民眾檢舉，是不是？"],["邱委員若華：目前有沒有開放讓民眾檢舉？"],["林司長福山：這一條沒有。"],["邱委員若華：那我們是不是可以納入第五十六條的處罰架構開罰？"],["林司長福山：可是民眾檢舉的部分，如果是針對車輛要有車牌號碼跟違規事實；如果是人的部分，我想在實務執法上面，像第五十六條這些相關違規停車的部分，基本上，不管是警察執法或者是民眾……"],["邱委員若華：我們剛才看到的這兩段影片，他不是經過，他是有目的性的預留車位，然後占據這些車位，然後再讓開車的人可以順利停進這個車位，這樣已經不單純是妨礙交通了，他也是借行人之名行違規停車之實，難道我們沒有法可以……"],["陳次長彥伯：委員，這樣的行為是不是在處罰條例裡頭處罰，這可能要稍微探究一下，因為剛才委員特別提到兩個罰鍰額度的比較：一個是違規停車，另外一個是比較偏向行人去占用車位，剛才又特別提到這個可能又跟社會秩序是有關的，所以……"],["邱委員若華：本席提到違規停車是因為現在有明確的罰則，罰鍰是六百到一千二，可是針對人肉占據車位，我們沒有法可以開罰。"],["陳次長彥伯：所以我講開罰，第一個，是不是要開罰、是不是要用什麼樣的法條開罰，這個其實是要討論的，不是說把處罰條例拿來當……"],["邱委員若華：本席之所以會提就是因為有這樣的歪風，我們必須遏止，難道交通部還要繼續放任民眾這樣的行為，然後我們不做任何處理嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：對，所以我剛才特別提到，這樣的行為到底要用什麼法條處罰，我想我們再跟警政機關討論。"],["邱委員若華：在這裡本席也提議，我們是不是可以用第五十六條開罰呢？"],["陳次長彥伯：因為第五十六條裡頭是一些汽車的違規停車行為，跟一個人站在車格中是不一樣的……"],["邱委員若華：因為最後還是車輛停到停車格，那我們是不是可以針對車主來開罰？"],["陳次長彥伯：那個車子停進去並沒有違反相關的規定，是那一個占用的行為……"],["邱委員若華：那前提也是因為，比如說他們的親友先去占據車位了。"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，這樣的行為是不是有可罰性、要怎麼罰，這個可能要再討論一下……"],["邱委員若華：交通部要不要再做研議嘛？"],["陳次長彥伯：這部分我跟委員報告一下，我想我們再跟警政署討論就現行的相關法條，用什麼樣的方式處理是比較恰當的，好不好？"],["邱委員若華：OK，好，謝謝次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱若華委員。"],["主席（邱委員若華代）：接著我們請林國成委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-11","speakers":["林國成","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","許智傑","陳素月","蔡其昌","何欣純","林俊憲","張啓楷","廖先翔","李昆澤","游顥","黃健豪","陳雪生","魯明哲","徐富癸","邱若華","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員吳宗憲等17人、(二)委員賴士葆等28人、(三)委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具「人\n工智慧基本法草案」及(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工智慧發展及管理條例草案」案；二、審查\n( 一) 委員林俊憲等23 人擬具「公路法第二十七條、第二十八條及第七十五條條文修正草案」、\n(二)委員陳冠廷等18人、(三)委員徐富癸等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」、\n(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「公路法第三十三條條文修正草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團、(六)委\n員馬文君等19 人、( 七) 委員邱若華等17 人分別擬具「公路法第三十九條之一條文修正草案」、\n(八)委員何欣純等18人擬具「公路法第四十六條及第六十條之一條文修正草案」、(九)委員王義\n川等16人擬具「公路法第六十五條條文修正草案」及(十)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「公路法第七十\n二條條文修正草案」案；三、審查 ( 一 ) 委員林俊憲等 22 人擬具「停車場法第四條條文修正草\n案」、(二)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」及(三)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「停車場法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。【本日會議僅針對開會事由二及三進行合併詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1144802_00001"}}},{"id":"161220","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161220","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d52fe0919111421af49988fdfbeb5b6687585e0b6e5cd30ed73d7dcd980b23cef445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"12:33:49 - 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請陳正事委員好"},{"start":14.423,"end":29.472,"text":"市長那個前瞻基礎建設改善停車問題的計畫現在用完了嗎經費目前的經費我的了解應該是已經執行完畢了已經執行完畢了應該是分配完畢了分配完畢那"},{"start":34.151,"end":58.579,"text":"還沒有交通部在邊境會在處理各縣市的停車問題我想跟委員報告一下有關這個停車的問題我想我們也了解委員很關心而且還有很多委員很關心所以我們大概做兩個方向在處理第一個是有關這個停車場的是因為要補助所以他有一個建設計畫那個要修正我們目前正在修正中"},{"start":59.139,"end":78.709,"text":"那另外一個是他這個要有相關的裁員因為已經分配完了嘛所以那個正在爭取相關的一個裁員那我的了解我們應該是放在前瞻的預算裡面前瞻新一期的前瞻就是在新一期的前瞻那經費說大概多少錢有沒有預估"},{"start":83.971,"end":94.207,"text":"我們大概原則上是60億啦60億啊對對但是最後是多少還是要看整個行政院的一個核心106年到114年總經費260億那您的60億是幾年"},{"start":100.546,"end":125.399,"text":"我們是後續的4年4年的計畫後續的4年因為畢竟停車問題當然我也了解它是很重要但是還是屬於地方事務所以原則上如果有相關的預算還是要整體預算來看所以先編列60億然後後續如果有不足我們再看怎麼樣來我是建議就是大家多考量舉個例子現在騎樓停車"},{"start":130.322,"end":158.665,"text":"檢舉是不是在全國都有很多這種案件對不對那你知道這個造成地方多大的困擾嗎很像地方也都有相關的一個全國各縣市都有啦那就是停車那很多民眾跟我們反映你停車空間給我我就不需要停了啊現在就停車空間真的不足"},{"start":160.396,"end":183.317,"text":"那停車空間不足的情況之下西樓停車記得當時應該是上個會期我曾經提過我們交通部也曾經有過那個給各縣市供地方政府的公文就是地方政府自行斟酌所以等於我們交通部把這個問題丟到地方政府"},{"start":185.049,"end":209.105,"text":"建議地方政府要預留多少因為想要行人的一個空間現在地方政府就是大部分都沒有確定我記得當時鄭文燦市長在桃園的時候曾經有說可以預留1.5米給機車停位但是汽車也是沒有所以全國可能都沒有任何地方政府說汽車可以停"},{"start":212.735,"end":234.99,"text":"騎樓這個目前是這個政策應該是困難對不對因為行人入權的關係我也知道我們必須重視行人入權但是呢你今天如果是六米巷六米巷騎樓不能停都會停到它的門口嘛兩輛車停在門口六米巷剩下幾米那你垃圾車過得去嗎"},{"start":240.732,"end":254.839,"text":"萬一有火災的時候救火車過得去嗎如果萬一有這種情況發生交通部會不會覺得如果因此而有人傷亡那交通部會不會心裡覺得痛呢"},{"start":257.558,"end":281.605,"text":"當然啦這個有關停車比較狹窄的這個巷道是那個但是有關那個太早的巷道如何讓這個救護車消防車經過這個但是你現在沒有相關的規範你現在的規範就是騎樓不能停嘛對多少米以下是不可以現在就是不行嘛是是是現在就是我說的像六米道路啦"},{"start":282.725,"end":294.064,"text":"很明顯你就是不能停那你停在門口很明顯垃圾車 救火車就是過不了像這種情況你覺得怎麼處理比較好"},{"start":297.26,"end":324.97,"text":"這分兩個啦就是說在那裡頭沒辦法停車的話確實是要找我們解決問題比較重要啦對 要找自然覺得應該怎麼樣可以解決這個問題像剛才特別提到的停車的問題就是停車空間要想辦法在這個附近去找停車空間嘛對啊你就是沒辦法讓我停啊各縣市各地區恐怕就是說你通通要停到我足夠的停車空間差不多都沒辦法嘛"},{"start":326.108,"end":347.897,"text":"那也是不可能的啦 其實這是整體交通政策啦還有另外一個是車輛的使用啦 對不對你停車公圈不夠讓我停 不是我不愛停我門口 騎樓不能停 因為行人路線 我也愛走我停在門口 不是停在騎樓裡面 兩台車停的六米行過不過"},{"start":352.81,"end":368.719,"text":"我覺得我是這樣建議啦 其實交通部可以研議 在我的看法可以參考當然行人路權我們一定是非常的重視但是你現在六米行 六米行要走到你家的七樓 他們說機會沒大"},{"start":374.741,"end":382.747,"text":"所以六米巷有沒有可能江東部演繹一下不然你就留一米的寬度讓你停讓行人可以走然後呢你勉強停在因為現在我說的就是我們講是務實啦理想我們當然都懂啊100%騎樓不能停100%救護車救火車要可以過100%停車空位 停車空間要夠"},{"start":405.183,"end":414.314,"text":"這個都是理想嘛那在理想的社會沒有辦法達到的時候我們務實的處理是不是交通部可以做一個研議跟思考"},{"start":418.154,"end":444.99,"text":"跟委員報告像這樣的一個也牽涉到那個那個道路空間的一個使用啦那個可能更多是 比較簡單就是都沒人要答啦我跟妳講喔市長那個我們也希望局長可以思考一下這個問題就是說我們站在國家的角度這個問題到底要怎麼解決這個不是我今天在這邊提只是許智傑的問題我跟各位報告專國國管制"},{"start":446.869,"end":474.795,"text":"檢舉案件不斷市民不堪其擾我剛提過我要合法停車你沒有辦法給我我停在7樓一定會被開單我再舉個例子檢舉單人也很聰明現在警察如果去是開勸導單檢舉單人一到的時候說我可以告你假案"},{"start":478.646,"end":507.436,"text":"好現在沒有人可以處理這件事情你們研議一下啦我現在我知道這個問題很頭痛全國的人民很多人因為這樣被開單的很頭痛那如果有沒有什麼務實的彈性的做法可以解決這個問題我的意思就是說比如說我在六米巷的騎樓停車"},{"start":509.349,"end":525.414,"text":"你只要留下一米可以讓行人通行那勉強我可以讓你停進去不開單那這樣子救火車救護車垃圾車可以通過有沒有這種可能"},{"start":529.33,"end":554.418,"text":"這個建議我想我們再跟國土署來討論一下因為那個相關的這個問題可能要全面性去考慮啦我是建議我們真的是替百姓做一下思考是是是我說的全國受這種困擾的百姓最沒有 幾百萬最沒有問題啦我不知道多少 我沒有統計量啦但是真的是"},{"start":555.748,"end":583.301,"text":"交通局說檢察局會處理,檢察局說我們會盡量勸導然後有時候,經濟達人會說,我可以跟你吃飯然後呢,當然就不得不開單我六、七天聽到我們門口的七樓,半夜兩點我來給他開單我也是要告知啦啊我說的就是說,我們苦民所苦,我們去想一個到底有沒有一個比較務實的解套的辦法"},{"start":584.454,"end":589.721,"text":"我沒有做到一百分 但是我這樣做有可能九十分八十分 大家可以接受的範圍有一個"},{"start":592.766,"end":618.677,"text":"這個就是兩個極端取其中庸嘛那怎麼樣找到一個中庸的方法質量用中是不是請交通部想一下然後跟地方政府溝通一下可以解決很多百姓的問題我們來會同這個內政部跟相關地方政府大家來討論一下希望您就是交通部重視這件事情給人民一個解決的辦法好不好我們來努力看看"},{"start":620.138,"end":629.475,"text":"你只要努力,若不結局,我們北省都很難過的是,我們來盡量盡量把它找出解方啦,好不好是,是好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":809,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（12時33分）謝謝主席，我們請次長。"],["主席：請陳政次。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：次長，前瞻基礎建設改善停車問題計畫的經費現在用完了嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：目前的經費，我的瞭解應該已經執行完畢了。"],["許委員智傑：已經執行完畢？"],["陳次長彥伯：也分配完畢了，應該是分配完畢了。"],["許委員智傑：分配完畢？"],["陳次長彥伯：對。"],["許委員智傑：交通部還有沒有再編經費來處理各縣市的停車問題？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想跟委員報告一下，有關停車的問題，我們瞭解委員很關心，還有很多委員也很關心，所以我們大概以兩個方向處理：第一個，有關停車場是因為要補助嘛，所以它有一個建設計畫，那個要修正，我們目前正在修正中。另外一個是，這個要有相關的財源，因為已經分配完了嘛，所以正在爭取相關的財源，我的瞭解我們應該是放在前瞻的預算裡面。"],["許委員智傑：前瞻？"],["陳次長彥伯：新一期的前瞻。"],["許委員智傑：就是再新一期的前瞻？"],["陳次長彥伯：對。"],["許委員智傑：經費的部分，有沒有說大概多少錢？有沒有預估？"],["陳次長彥伯：原則上是60億啦。"],["許委員智傑：60億？"],["陳次長彥伯：對，但是最後是多少，還是要看行政院的核實。"],["許委員智傑：106年到114年總經費260億，那您的60億是幾年？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們是後續的4年計畫。"],["許委員智傑：後續的4年？"],["陳次長彥伯：對，畢竟停車問題，委員也了解它很重要，但是這還是屬於地方事務啦，所以原則上，如果有相關的預算，還是要整體預算來看，所以……"],["許委員智傑：我知道這是地方事務。"],["陳次長彥伯：先編列60億，然後後續如果有不足，我們再看怎麼樣來……"],["許委員智傑：我是建議大家多考量啦。我舉個例子，現在騎樓停車檢舉，是不是全國都有很多這種案件？對不對？你知道這個造成地方多大的困擾嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們的瞭解是地方也都有相關的處理啦……"],["許委員智傑：全國各縣市都有啦，很多民眾跟我們反映，你把停車空間給我，我就不需要停在騎樓了啊，現在就是因為停車空間真的不足，在停車空間不足的情況之下，騎樓停車的問題，我記得應該是在上個會期我曾經提過，交通部也曾經有給各縣市地方政府公文，就是請地方政府自行斟酌，所以等於交通部把這個問題丟到地方政府嘛！"],["陳次長彥伯：我們也有建議地方政府要預留多少，因為要想到行人的空間。"],["許委員智傑：對，現在地方政府大部分都沒有確定啦，我記得當時鄭文燦市長在桃園的時候，曾經說可以預留1.5米給機車停位，但是汽車也是沒有，所以全國可能都沒有任何地方政府說汽車可以停。"],["陳次長彥伯：汽車要停在騎樓，目前這個政策應該是沒有……"],["許委員智傑：困難，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["許委員智傑：因為行人路權的關係，我也知道我們必須重視行人路權，但是呢，你今天如果是6米巷，6米巷騎樓不能停，就都會停到他的門口，兩輛車停在門口，6米巷剩下幾米？垃圾車過得去嗎？萬一有火災的時候，救火車過得去嗎？萬一有這種情況發生，如果又因此而有人傷亡，交通部會不會心裡覺得痛呢？"],["陳次長彥伯：當然啦，有關停車的問題，在比較狹窄的巷道是那個，但是有關太窄的巷道如何讓救護車、消防車經過，這個內政部有相關的規範了，而且也有規定……"],["許委員智傑：你現在的規範就是騎樓不能停嘛！"],["陳次長彥伯：對，多少米以下是不可以的。"],["許委員智傑：對啊，現在就是不行嘛！"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["許委員智傑：現在就是我說的，像6米道路很明顯就是不能停。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，就是不能停。"],["許委員智傑：如果停在門口，很明顯，垃圾車、救火車就是過不了，像這種情況，你覺得怎麼處理比較好？"],["陳次長彥伯：這分兩個，在那裡頭沒辦法停車的話，確實是要找……"],["許委員智傑：我們解決問題比較重要啦！"],["陳次長彥伯：對，要找出停車的空間啦……"],["許委員智傑：次長覺得應該怎麼樣才可以解決這個問題？"],["陳次長彥伯：像剛才特別提到的停車問題，停車空間要想辦法在附近去找……"],["許委員智傑：我覺得是這樣啦，停車空間嘛，你就是沒車位讓民眾停啊，各縣市、各地區如果通通要有足夠的停車空間，差不多都是不夠嘛！"],["陳次長彥伯：那也是不可能的啦，其實這是整體交通政策啦！"],["許委員智傑：次長，停車空間不夠，沒有辦法讓民眾停車……"],["陳次長彥伯：還有另外一個是車輛的使用。"],["許委員智傑：停車空間不夠讓民眾停，而不是民眾不停啊！我門口的騎樓不能停，因為行人路權也要顧，我停在門口，不是停在騎樓裡面，但兩輛車停了的話，6米巷內車輛就會過不去。我是這樣建議啦，其實交通部可以去研議，我的看法你們可以參考，當然行人路權我們一定是非常重視，但現在6米巷要去走住家的騎樓，坦白說機會不大啦，所以6米巷交通部有沒有可能去研議一下，不然你就留1米的寬度讓行人可以走，然後你勉強停在……因為現在我們講的是務實啦，理想我們當然都懂啊，100%騎樓不能停，100%救護車、救火車要可以通過，100%停車空間要夠，這個都是理想嘛，但這個理想在我們的社會沒有辦法達到的時候，我們就務實的處理，交通部是不是可以研議跟思考？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，這個也牽涉到道路空間的使用，那個可能更多是……"],["許委員智傑：比較簡單的就是都沒人要扛啦！"],["陳次長彥伯：……要跟國土署討論啦，因為有很多是國土署的……"],["許委員智傑：次長，我們也希望局長可以思考一下這個問題啦，我們站在國家的角度，這個問題到底要怎麼解決？這個不是我今天在這邊提，只是許智傑的問題。我跟各位報告，全國各縣市的檢舉案件不斷，市民不堪其擾。我剛剛提過，我要合法停車，但你沒有辦法給我啊，我停在騎樓就一定會被開單。我再舉個例子，檢舉達人也很聰明，現在警察如果去是開勸導單，檢舉達人一到的時候就說可以告警察吃案。現在沒有人可以處理這件事情，所以請你們研議一下。我知道這個問題很頭痛，全國人民有很多人因為這樣被開單也很頭痛，有沒有什麼務實的、彈性的作法可以解決這個問題？我的意思就是說，比如在6米巷的騎樓停車，只要留下1米可以讓行人通行，勉強我可以讓你停進去不開單，這樣子救火車、救護車、垃圾車就可以通過，有沒有這種可能？"],["陳次長彥伯：委員的這個建議，我想我們再跟國土署討論一下，因為相關的問題可能要全面性考慮啦，恐怕不是……"],["許委員智傑：我知道，我是建議我們真的是要替百姓做一下思考啦，全國受這種困擾的百姓至少幾百萬以上沒問題啦，我不知道到底有多少，我沒有統計數量，但是這真的是，交通局說警察局會處理，警察局說會儘量勸導，但有時候遇到檢舉達人又說可以告警察吃案，然後警察當然就不得不開單，6米巷，我停在我家門口的騎樓，半夜2點多來開單，我也是要繳罰款。我說的就是我們要苦民所苦，我們去想想看到底有沒有一個比較務實的解套辦法，沒有辦法做到100分，但是這樣做有可能90分、80分，在大家勉強可以接受的範圍，這個就是兩個極端取其中庸嘛，怎麼樣找到一個中庸的方法，執兩用中，是不是請交通部想一下，然後跟地方政府溝通一下，這樣可以解決很多百姓的問題，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們來會同內政部跟相關地方政府，大家來討論一下。"],["許委員智傑：好，希望交通部重視這件事情，給人民一個解決的辦法，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們來努力看看。"],["許委員智傑：你只有努力，如果沒有結果，現在百姓都很艱苦！"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們儘量。"],["許委員智傑：儘量找出解方啦，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["許委員智傑：好，謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑召委。","請邱若華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-11","speakers":["林國成","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","許智傑","陳素月","蔡其昌","何欣純","林俊憲","張啓楷","廖先翔","李昆澤","游顥","黃健豪","陳雪生","魯明哲","徐富癸","邱若華","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員吳宗憲等17人、(二)委員賴士葆等28人、(三)委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具「人\n工智慧基本法草案」及(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工智慧發展及管理條例草案」案；二、審查\n( 一) 委員林俊憲等23 人擬具「公路法第二十七條、第二十八條及第七十五條條文修正草案」、\n(二)委員陳冠廷等18人、(三)委員徐富癸等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」、\n(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「公路法第三十三條條文修正草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團、(六)委\n員馬文君等19 人、( 七) 委員邱若華等17 人分別擬具「公路法第三十九條之一條文修正草案」、\n(八)委員何欣純等18人擬具「公路法第四十六條及第六十條之一條文修正草案」、(九)委員王義\n川等16人擬具「公路法第六十五條條文修正草案」及(十)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「公路法第七十\n二條條文修正草案」案；三、審查 ( 一 ) 委員林俊憲等 22 人擬具「停車場法第四條條文修正草\n案」、(二)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」及(三)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「停車場法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。【本日會議僅針對開會事由二及三進行合併詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1144802_00001"}}},{"id":"161219","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161219","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d526c68108f3f5b431c63ba08a40ece61fc8c36c5eeff8411bae25638440f1b511c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:30:32 - 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看是要檢察總長回答還是檢察長回答因為有時候你們的權責到底是怎麼劃分的在相關的作業辦法裡面說最高檢察總長也好上級檢察署的檢察長也好都有這個職責要依照職權來查明嘛"},{"start":138.849,"end":153.9,"text":"那有的時候你們在這邊回答的時候皮球踢來踢去我也不曉得到底是誰負責啦今天竟然在書面報告裡面說針對違反偵查不公開的個案有督導一二審檢察署確實查明嗎那現在確實查明的進度是什麼"},{"start":155.144,"end":181.355,"text":"報告委員這一部分我們台高軍署非常的重視依照法務部以及最高檢察署的一個指示除了召開多次的會議以及舉行的相關的一個座談會之外我們要求我們所屬的地檢署務必依照我們目前的那個政策不公開的相關的一個規定來去注意的落實至於相關的具體的數據資料我們會後是不是在那個在送那委員這邊參考講具體的啦來"},{"start":184.352,"end":203.322,"text":"之前啊就有記者說經營減掉至少7年嘛消息來源200%正確嘛這應該是有包括在你們今天所提出來的書面報告針對個案有要求一二審確實查明那上一次"},{"start":204.554,"end":231.204,"text":"我在質詢的時候我提出來的重點是北檢洩密結果自己查自己自己發新聞稿當天傳喚當天就發新聞稿說絕對沒有這樣子的事情請外界不要再用臆測的方式無端指責這個個案我上一次請教部長的時候部長說沒有簽結現在還在偵辦當中目前偵辦的進度如何"},{"start":233.474,"end":259.172,"text":"跟委員報告 目前還在偵辦中 還沒有簽結目前還在偵辦中 來 請高檢署這個算是你們督導的範圍嗎是我們督導的範圍我們一般檢察官辦案的期限多長一般是八個月一般八個月 這個案子超過八個月沒有應該是還沒有應該是還沒有我們具體 經濟等接下來的結果"},{"start":261.707,"end":277.776,"text":"社會大眾對於這種亂象大家是深惡痛絕結果看到北檢自己發新聞稿說沒有這樣子的事情結果北檢自己查自己現在還是繼續北檢自己查自己嗎還是高檢署有下去督導"},{"start":279.546,"end":294.905,"text":"報告委員 因為這屬於個案的偵查 那是屬我們的地檢署的一個偵辦的一個範圍那我們太高檢署 不用行政 我們會來去持續來去督導瞭解好 分兩個部分嘛 刑事偵查的部分 交由個案的檢察官偵辦 這沒有問題嗎"},{"start":296.88,"end":312.86,"text":"下一個問題那你說就行政的部分高檢署要持續了解現在了解的進度如何這部分我們進行相關的了解因為這部分有關於刑事的一個偵查的個案偵查的一個結果我們目前還不知道"},{"start":313.28,"end":338.706,"text":"那等到偵查的結果出來的話 當然我們就會依照偵查的結果 啟動相關的行政的調查所以要等到偵查的結果出來了以後 才會啟動行政程序喔對 因為這一般是先偵查 後面才去行政的一個因為現在社會大眾啊 非常的困惑北檢說啊 他們自己沒有洩密但很奇怪啊 在偵查的期間當中 這些資料基本上就只有檢察官才有"},{"start":340.885,"end":363.122,"text":"辯護連月卷都沒有辦法月在這樣的情況之下這些偵查當中的秘密怎麼洩漏出去的到目前為止沒有給社會大眾一個清楚的交代那既然說還在偵辦當中還沒有結案那我們就拭目以待看這個案子要拖多久接下來第二個問題我之前有請教過部長"},{"start":364.848,"end":387.303,"text":"為什麼我們的共諜案在偵辦的期間當中結果總統府在具體無上語之前就知道了提前一天解除他的職務那個時候部長不斷的說明這個絕對沒有洩密那我的問題就來了那總統府怎麼知道的是通靈嗎來請教一下高檢署檢察長"},{"start":389.978,"end":404.974,"text":"針對這個案子有開始分案調查了嗎報告委員我們這部分抬高監署並沒有啟動行政的調查並沒有啟動行政的調查我今天可以公開檢舉請你們啟動調查嗎這很嚴重啊在申辦共諜的案件當中"},{"start":406.515,"end":433.515,"text":"偵辦到一半結果就有人洩密洩密了以後總統府可以提前一簽解除他的職務這裡面一定有鬼嘛來請問一下高檢署的檢察長這個案子我今天我上一次在部長在這邊的時候其實我就已經公開檢舉了嘛針對這樣子的事情來高檢署的檢察長你認為有沒有洩密的問題報告委員這部分台北地檢署已經封案來依法偵辦了"},{"start":434.215,"end":446.588,"text":"台北地檢署有分案依法偵辦我希望好好偵辦啊因為這個事情大家看不懂啊大家看不懂啊為什麼總統府提前一天知道解除職務是通靈嗎"},{"start":449.09,"end":468.664,"text":"一樣 我們接下來看 偵辦的結果以後 拭目以待接下來 今天在解凍第二個重要的問題是有關於棄保潛逃的問題在問棄保潛逃的問題之前 我先請教檢察官視察被告的處所應不應該要通知法院來 請檢察長報告委員 這部分我們會依照刑事訴訟法第106條的規定來去處理"},{"start":476.735,"end":493.795,"text":"那我現在的問題來了台北地檢署最近五年八十四次視察只有兩次通知法院而且兩次通知法院剛好都是林俊炎去醫院的時候都是林俊炎去醫院的時候"},{"start":494.83,"end":522.455,"text":"他是不是在那個中間的過程當中被辯護人檢舉啦所以趕快補報法院我不願意多做揣測啊但接下來的問題是啊我請他們函附給我我請他們函附給我北檢最近84次視察只有兩次通知法院將有符合刑事訴訟法的規定嗎來 請教檢察長邦委員啊 這部分我們要求啊 那個所屬的檢察署這已經不是要求不要求了嘛"},{"start":523.727,"end":547.443,"text":"過去84次 幾乎都沒有通知法院這有沒有違反刑事訴訟法這部分我們要求所屬的法院 檢察署 依照規定來辦理對 我現在就問你嘛你一直跟我說 你會要求所屬的檢察署依照規定來辦理那現在的問題是 他們有依照規定在辦理嗎顯然沒有嘛我有沒有說錯 檢察長目前好像是沒有徹底的落實"},{"start":549.98,"end":576.698,"text":"您講話還蠻有藝術的啊所以目前沒有徹底的落實啊你看連昭偉都在笑啦除了林俊元去醫院那兩次其他通通都沒有通知法院啊是絕大多數都沒有按照規定啊來處理針對這樣明顯違反刑事訴訟法的狀況高檢署打算怎麼處理既往不咎之前違反就違反了沒有關係我們之後大家不要這樣幹就可以了是這樣嗎呃"},{"start":580.101,"end":595.738,"text":"報告委員 這部分我們太高監事會通案要求我們所屬檢察署來落實來去辦理好來 接下來 撮文字 落跑的事情我現在在政策面上面 再請教一下部長法務部 贊不贊成訂棄保檢討罪"},{"start":599.401,"end":626.702,"text":"這部分我們有提出法案現在那個行政已經審訊了所以政策立場上面是贊成的嗎是贊成那行政院審訊的條文什麼時候會提出來即將要送那個院會來所以還沒有送院會來處理嗎上次那個委員有詢問的時候那個有行政有承諾就是說明天啊我現在直接跟部長講明天就要處理了到目前為止"},{"start":627.583,"end":649.325,"text":"我們都還沒有看到法務部具體條文的建議希望法務部把握時間盡快把它提出來因為這件事情我們不是最近才問從去年就開始問了一路問到今年在委員會審查的時候在黨團協商的時候請法務部提出條文來一直都不願意提出來"},{"start":650.865,"end":673.243,"text":"明天就要處理啦我希望法務部啊能夠把握機會把你們建議的條文啊趕快提出來來最後請請檢察總長最後一個問題就好了中文字的案子啊最高檢察署之前有發新聞稿說這件事情嘛你們非常的重視要立案調查目前調查的結果如何來請檢察總長"},{"start":682.901,"end":709.302,"text":"那個委員是指的哪一方面來請看一下最高檢察署新聞稿你是指哪一方面的調查人為什麼把他放掉為什麼檢察官沒有在這個過程當中表達意見這個台北地檢署跟台高檢署分別在進行調查那至於那個鍾先生的逃亡現在台北地檢署也在偵辦中來請一下高檢署"},{"start":711.105,"end":730.024,"text":"剛剛檢查總長說高檢署也有在進行調查嗎報告委員我們台高檢署分調案進行相關的調查什麼時候分調案進行調查的已經從案發之後我們就分調案來進行調查還需要多久應該在這個月有機會我們會去調查完畢"},{"start":732.402,"end":753.692,"text":"這個月嗎對 這個月高檢署進行的是行政調查吧對 高檢署是行政調查不是行事調查嗎不是 這是台北地檢署目前正在沒有關係啊 行事調查的部分我們尊重啊行事調查的部分我們尊重啊行政調查的部分這個月完成了以後是不是可以把調查報告給本委員會的委員"},{"start":755.993,"end":779.162,"text":"這部分我們如果調查報告的話那個依照相關的規定我們也會送到委員會來送到委員會來因為這些我今天質詢的案子都是社會大眾關心有重大的公益性但到目前為止都沒有給國人一個合理的交代希望高檢署這個月完成了行政調查報告了以後送到本委員會來好 謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":551,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時30分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請法務部部長、最高檢察署邢檢察總長以及高等檢察署張檢察長。"],["主席：請鄭部長，還有邢檢察總長、高檢署。"],["黃委員國昌：三位早，時間的關係，不一一問候。過去在2017年司改國是會議的時候，做成了一個非常重要的決議，嚴肅的追究違反偵查不公開的責任，因為長期以來偵查不公開變成偵查亂公開。在2017年司改國是會議以後，我們本來期待這樣的亂象可以獲得改善，結果沒想到是越來越誇張。在今天法務部所提出的解凍報告當中提到，最高檢察署已經就違反偵查不公開的個案，有督導該一、二審檢察署確實查明。在此請教檢察總長及高檢署張檢察長，你們說就目前違反偵查不公開的個案，有督導該一、二審檢察署確實查明，目前的進度如何？沒關係，看是要檢察總長回答還是檢察長回答，因為你們的權責到底是怎麼劃分的，在相關的作業辦法裡面規定最高檢察總長也好，上級檢察署的檢察長也好，都有職責要依照職權來查明，有時你們在這邊回答的時候皮球踢來踢去，我也不曉得到底是誰負責啦！今天既然在書面報告裡面說，針對違反偵查不公開的個案，有督導一、二審檢察署確實查明，那現在確實查明的進度是什麼？"],["張檢察長斗輝：報告委員，這部分臺高檢署非常的重視，依照法務部以及最高檢察署的指示，除了召開多次會議以及舉行相關座談會之外，也要求我們所屬的地檢署務必依照目前偵查不公開的相關規定加以落實。至於相關的具體數據資料，是不是會後再送給委員參考？"],["黃委員國昌：講具體的啦！之前就有記者說經營檢調至少七年，消息來源百分之兩百正確，這應該有包括在你們今天所提出來的書面報告當中，針對個案有要求一、二審確實查明，上一次我在質詢的時候，我提出來的重點是北檢洩密，結果自己查自己，自己發新聞稿，當天傳喚當天就發新聞稿說絕對沒有這樣子的事情，請外界不要再用臆測的方式無端指責。針對這個個案，我上一次請教部長的時候，部長說沒有簽結，現在還在偵辦當中，目前偵辦的進度如何？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，目前還在偵辦中，還沒有簽結。"],["黃委員國昌：目前還在偵辦中？來，請高檢署，這個算是你們督導的範圍嗎？"],["張檢察長斗輝：是我們督導的範圍。"],["黃委員國昌：一般檢察官辦個案的期限多長？"],["張檢察長斗輝：一般是8個月。"],["黃委員國昌：一般是8個月，這個案子超過8個月沒有？"],["張檢察長斗輝：應該是還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：應該是還沒有？我們具體靜靜的等接下來的結果。社會大眾對於這種亂象深惡痛絕，看到北檢自己發新聞稿說沒有這樣子的事情，結果北檢自己查自己，現在還是繼續北檢自己查自己嗎？還是高檢署有下去督導？"],["張檢察長斗輝：報告委員，因為這屬於個案的偵查，那是屬於地檢署偵辦的範圍，臺高檢署對於行政方面會持續去督導了解。"],["黃委員國昌：好，分兩個部分嘛：刑事偵查的部分交由個案的檢察官偵辦，這沒有問題。下一個問題，你說就行政的部分，高檢署要持續了解，現在了解的進度如何？"],["張檢察長斗輝：這部分我們進行相關的了解，因為有關於刑事偵查的個案，偵查的結果我們目前還不知道，等到偵查的結果出來的話，當然我們就會依照偵查結果去啟動相關的行政調查。"],["黃委員國昌：所以要等到偵查的結果出來了以後，才會啟動行政程序？"],["張檢察長斗輝：對，因為一般是先偵查，後面才是行政的……"],["黃委員國昌：現在社會大眾非常的困惑，北檢說他們自己沒有洩密，但很奇怪，在偵查期間當中，這些資料基本上只有檢察官才有，辯護人連閱卷都沒有辦法閱，在這樣的情況之下，這些偵查當中的秘密怎麼洩漏出去的，到目前為止沒有給社會大眾一個清楚的交代，既然還在偵辦當中、還沒有結個案，那我們就拭目以待，看這個案子要拖多久。","接下來第二個問題，我之前有請教過部長，為什麼共諜案在偵辦的期間當中，結果總統府在拘提吳尚雨之前就知道了，提前一天解除他的職務，那時候部長不斷說明這個絕對沒有洩密，那我的問題就來了，總統府怎麼知道的？是通靈嗎？請教一下高檢署檢察長，針對這個案子有開始分案調查了嗎？"],["張檢察長斗輝：報告委員，這部分臺高檢署並沒有啟動行政的調查。"],["黃委員國昌：並沒有啟動行政的調查？我今天可以公開檢舉請你們啟動調查嗎？這很嚴重啊！在偵辦共諜的個案當中，偵辦到一半，結果就有人洩密，洩密了以後，總統府可以提前一天解除他的職務，這裡面一定有鬼嘛！請問一下高檢署的檢察長，其實這個案子上一次部長在這邊的時候，我就已經公開檢舉了，針對這樣子的事情，請問高檢署的檢察長，你認為有沒有洩密的問題？"],["張檢察長斗輝：報告委員，這部分臺北地檢署已經分案依法偵辦了。"],["黃委員國昌：臺北地檢署有分案依法偵辦，我希望好好偵辦，因為這個事情大家看不懂啊！為什麼總統府提前一天知道並解除他的職務？是通靈嗎？同樣的，我們接下來看偵辦的結果，拭目以待。","接下來，今天解凍的第二個重要問題是有關於棄保潛逃的問題，在問棄保潛逃的問題之前，我先請教檢察官視察被告的處所，應不應該要通知法院？請檢察長說明。"],["張檢察長斗輝：報告委員，這部分我們會依照刑事訴訟法第一百零六條的規定處理。"],["黃委員國昌：現在我的問題來了，臺北地檢署最近5年84次視察，只有2次通知法院，而且2次通知法院剛好都是林俊言去醫院的時候，他是不是在那個中間的過程當中被辯護人檢舉了，所以趕快補報法院，對此我不願意多作揣測，但接下來的問題是，我請他們函復給我，北檢最近84次視察只有2次通知法院，這樣有符合刑事訴訟法的規定嗎？請教檢察長。"],["張檢察長斗輝：報告委員，這部分我們會來要求所屬的檢察署一定要按照規定……"],["黃委員國昌：這已經不是要求或不要求的問題了，過去84次幾乎都沒有通知法院，這有沒有違反刑事訴訟法？"],["張檢察長斗輝：這部分我們會要求所屬的檢察署依照規定來辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：我現在就問你嘛，你一直跟我說你會要求所屬的檢察署依照規定來辦理，現在的問題是他們有依照規定在辦理嗎？顯然沒有嘛！我有沒有說錯？檢察長。"],["張檢察長斗輝：目前好像是沒有澈底的落實。"],["黃委員國昌：您講話還蠻有藝術的，說目前沒有澈底的落實，你看連召委都在笑了。除了林俊言去醫院那2次，其他通通都沒有通知法院，所以是絕大多數都沒有按照規定來處理，針對這樣明顯違反刑事訴訟法的狀況，高檢署打算怎麼處理？既往不咎？之前違反就違反了，沒有關係，之後大家不要這樣幹就可以了，是這樣嗎？"],["張檢察長斗輝：報告委員，這部分臺高檢署會通案要求所屬檢察署落實辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：接下來是鍾文智落跑的事情，我現在針對政策面再請教一下部長，法務部贊不贊成定棄保潛逃罪？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們有提出法案，現在行政院已經審竣了。"],["黃委員國昌：所以政策立場上面是贊成的嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：是贊成的。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院審竣的條文什麼時候會提出來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：即將要送院會來……"],["黃委員國昌：所以還沒有送院會處理嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：上次委員詢問的時候，行政院有承諾，就是說……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在直接跟部長講，明天就要處理了，但是到目前為止，我們都還沒有看到法務部具體條文的建議，希望法務部把握時間，儘快把它提出來，因為這件事情我們不是最近才問，從去年就開始問了，一路問到今年，在委員會審查的時候、在黨團協商的時候，我們都請法務部提出條文來，但你們一直都不願意提出來。明天就要處理了，我希望法務部能夠把握機會，把你們建議的條文趕快提出來。","最後請邢檢察總長，最後一個問題就好了，關於鍾文智的案子，最高檢察署之前有發新聞稿說這件事情你們非常的重視，要立案調查，目前調查的結果如何？請檢察總長說明。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：委員指的是哪一方面？"],["黃委員國昌：請看一下最高檢察署新聞稿。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：你是指哪一方面的調查？"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼把人放掉？為什麼檢察官沒有在這個過程當中表達意見？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：臺北地檢署和臺高檢署分別在進行調查，至於鍾先生的逃亡，現在臺北地檢署也在偵辦中。"],["黃委員國昌：請一下高檢署，剛剛檢察總長說高檢署也有在進行調查。"],["張檢察長斗輝：報告委員：我們臺高檢署分調案進行相關的調查。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候分調案進行調查的？"],["張檢察長斗輝：從案發之後，我們就分調案來進行調查。"],["黃委員國昌：還需要多久？"],["張檢察長斗輝：應該在這個月有機會我們會調查完竣。"],["黃委員國昌：這個月嗎？"],["張檢察長斗輝：對，這個月。"],["黃委員國昌：高檢署進行的是行政調查吧？"],["張檢察長斗輝：對，臺高檢署是行政調查。"],["黃委員國昌：不是刑事調查嘛。"],["張檢察長斗輝：不是，臺北地檢署目前正在……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，刑事調查的部分，我們尊重，行政調查的部分這個月完成了以後，是不是可以把調查報告給本委員會的委員？"],["張檢察長斗輝：調查報告的部分，依照相關規定，我們也會送到委員會來。"],["黃委員國昌：因為這些我今天質詢的案子，都是社會大眾關心，有重大的公益性，但到目前為止，都沒有給國人一個合理的交代，希望高檢署這個月完成行政調查報告以後，送到本委員會來，謝謝。"],["張檢察長斗輝：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","接下來有請吳宗憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-16","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","吳宗憲","沈發惠","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於監察院主管預算凍結項目共 1案；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管預算凍結項目共7案；三、審查及處理114年度中央\n政府總預算關於考試院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案；四、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於法\n務部及所屬主管預算凍結項目共23案","agenda_id":"1144802_00002"}}},{"id":"161218","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161218","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d525360911e057fa28c63ba08a40ece61fc8c36c5eeff8411ba1d84deb0c5e6415a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"09:21:48 - 09:30:26","影片長度":"00:08:38","會議時間":"2025-05-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於監察院主管預算凍結項目共1案。\n二、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管預算凍結項目共7案。\n三、審查及處理114年度中央政府總預算關於考試院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。\n四、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於法務部及所屬主管預算凍結項目共23案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-12","start_time":"2025-05-12T09:21:48+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-12T09:30:26+08:00","duration":518,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-16"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.864093750000002,"end":24.870968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.42346875,"end":64.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.18534375,"end":65.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.26534375,"end":69.72471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.28159375,"end":86.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.03846875,"end":97.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.87221875,"end":104.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.50409375000001,"end":110.17409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.17409375000001,"end":110.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.03471875000001,"end":111.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.26659375000001,"end":112.28346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.28346875000001,"end":113.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.04284375,"end":116.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.36721875,"end":116.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.50221875000001,"end":131.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.76721875000001,"end":122.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.82471875000002,"end":135.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.27971875,"end":145.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.26971875,"end":147.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.19346875000002,"end":150.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.32846875,"end":148.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.50534375,"end":176.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.23221875000002,"end":170.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.31971875000002,"end":190.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.98846875,"end":223.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.33784375000002,"end":259.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.88096875000002,"end":231.26909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.26909375000002,"end":231.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.28596875000002,"end":231.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.69409375,"end":240.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.98909375000002,"end":241.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.82846875,"end":243.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.46096875,"end":245.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.07909375,"end":262.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.57659375000003,"end":263.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.17971875,"end":272.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.47784375000003,"end":274.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.26659375,"end":280.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.45971875000004,"end":291.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.76596875,"end":308.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.74221875,"end":312.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.01159375000003,"end":321.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.53346875,"end":321.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.12409375000004,"end":332.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.56971875000005,"end":332.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.58659375,"end":332.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.73409375,"end":363.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.56471875,"end":369.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.20971875000004,"end":370.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.01534375,"end":377.28846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.59221875000003,"end":392.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.99909375000004,"end":403.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.06909375000004,"end":409.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.72221875,"end":456.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.06534375,"end":428.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.89221875000004,"end":458.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.89596875,"end":507.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.39284375000005,"end":465.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.24284375,"end":516.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.25971875000005,"end":507.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.462218750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我們請監察院秘書長還有人事行政總書人事長 謝謝請李秘書長 蘇人事長"},{"start":26.699,"end":42.19,"text":"在詢問兩位之前今天在場所有的首長在凍結案裡頭我看到很多委員都有給一些要改進的意見要補充的資料書面報告"},{"start":43.15,"end":64.477,"text":"譬如說像法務部,請你們改的東西非常多,要改進的東西很多那這些委員當時的建議,看起來都還蠻良善的所以請你們記得務必,這個委員給的建議,務必這個報告要好好寫,要做改進,這是第一個"},{"start":65.285,"end":84.426,"text":"第二個,請問監察院的李秘書長,媒體都說你現在監察院想要的都沒帶記者,什麼委員、村盟什麼沒有郵局,有司機、有車沒有郵局,現在監察委員是都停擺了嗎?有在運作嗎?"},{"start":87.845,"end":110.338,"text":"或是說影響很大 你的做法有很多的調整 業務的工作量有什麼改變嗎 跟大家講一下王議員報告 自從立法院刪除預算以後 我們業務費用被刪了96%所以我們現在很多費用是由監委自行出資 包括我們的郵費 都自己出資"},{"start":113.119,"end":134.159,"text":"真的啦 保險費 這都自己出資另外我們堅持的原則就是憲法跟法律賦予我們的職責我們還是要做所以我們繼續繼續在這個艱苦的環境下我們希望維持這個監察院的順利運作那到目前為止我們的案量並沒有減少好 那第二請教一下財產申報"},{"start":136.463,"end":144.098,"text":"因為我走進去的時候,因為他想要不去用台所以我又有辦法用網路,用自然人憑證炒菜就炒菜"},{"start":146.328,"end":171.135,"text":"那現在也是這樣嗎現在還是要改手寫還是怎樣現在有困難因為監察院的這個所謂的所有的資訊系統都擺在我們的一般行政業務費用裡面那一般行政的業務費用全部被刪除所以我們現在維護系統有困難那如果現在財產申報的話恐怕要手動一本一本去刷簿子一本一本一筆那有可能啦"},{"start":171.815,"end":190.408,"text":"阿不然我現在的系統就沒辦法頂替了那你怎麼會露寶給你發錢阿我也沒辦法我也沒希望這樣現實上最困難的其實是法務部跟司法院他們現在就開始在申報了所以他們現在叫苦連天那我們真的愛莫能助因為預算被砍掉啦"},{"start":191.021,"end":194.883,"text":"你像我自己以前有做工讀生,去一間公司就叫我去開一個戶,薪水就放在裡面當然錢不多啦,可是我可能會漏報,當然這個稅太少啦,你如果不會怎麼樣啦可能裡面有幾萬塊、幾千塊在裡面,有時候有些數量很小,可是因為有這個系統"},{"start":217.276,"end":231.97,"text":"大家很方便嘛我查下去之後政府跟我說我對不起我哪裡有什麼東西很清楚我跟王議員報告大家住的情形都一樣其實本來用自然冷憑證插進去你哪裡戶頭有多少錢都非常清楚"},{"start":232.37,"end":242.613,"text":"那像我這樣常常調動職務的人我的帳戶很多,我自己都不記得你也不知道那個存摺是...存摺到底在哪裡,我要存在哪裡我不知道啊過去就自然而然就可以解決我們一筆一筆去聯絡各個銀行那現在因為這個系統的預算被刪除所以我們現在沒有辦法做維護的費用所以現在這個系統是停擺大家必須用手動去一筆一筆報"},{"start":259.178,"end":269.966,"text":"所以你們現在這個預算是被刪除的,也不是凍結的?也不是凍結所以現在來的各個必須申報財產,有些要年度申報的,有些有異動要申報的就要手工來處理"},{"start":274.332,"end":290.8,"text":"OK 好那接下來我請問一下人事總署的這個我們人事長因為我們今天就是說這個立院如果五六月把這個案子解掉了比如各部會案子解掉那因為裡面有一些預算"},{"start":291.92,"end":320.562,"text":"有一些預算是裡面跟人有關的他的計算可能是人月譬如說各單位可能會有些委託研究計畫有一些委託學術機關 委託大學教授那他可能當時裡面有編這個行政助理啦 研究生啦那他現在這個計畫如果在年底一定要執行完畢那顯然他現在能夠用的費用可能只剩6個月"},{"start":322.233,"end":332.298,"text":"那你們在接下來進行相關的委託計畫這些招標的過程會不會就把這些預算給砍了那解凍的金額你還是用不到"},{"start":334.586,"end":362.057,"text":"謝謝委員這個問題大概分兩個部分一個是以前業的部分以前業的部分大概把那個預算凍結這我們直接就把這個人力的需求直接就降低那另外一種情況可能是在解凍之後我們6月開始簽如果這個計畫是到年底為止的話我們在人事會的本來是使用12個月我們會把它收為7個月就是在人力的那種費用上面就是按照他服務的業數來去估算"},{"start":363.598,"end":391.219,"text":"嗯那如果說是這個還沒圈的就減少啦那如果還沒圈的就減少了好那人事總署有沒有去統計過啊像這一種譬如說大學的研究生他們因為這個預算凍結嘛啊學校老師的研究金會變少了嘛他可能前面這幾個月啊老師說你不用來啊我沒可能一個月給你幾六千因為本來有編啊八千啊一萬每個月那現在這種狀況啊"},{"start":393.32,"end":408.801,"text":"因為剛開始談這個凍結談預算審查的時候聽說學校哀鴻遍野很多學校的老師就跟研究生說我沒辦法跟你搶這個單位應該是這個數字有沒有一個大概的波及的範圍"},{"start":410.221,"end":427.827,"text":"那位委員報告,那位委員的資格這部分大概以高有薄到國科會這種情況會比較多啦那公務機關基本上這種問題碰到的會比較少因為剛才說的,好好裡面一開始,你有些是擺專案的嘛"},{"start":428.847,"end":453.844,"text":"阿有些是我用業務會去聘一些研究助理或者業用人員嘛阿他的進展為他自己再上升有可能的就是減聘啦減聘這個人數啦阿現在如果經費解凍以後他們會針對業務的需要性怕不怕有這個需要他可以去增加但是那個聘期本身就看六月開始就存請各位請各位開始就存啦"},{"start":458.967,"end":487.295,"text":"可能跟這個主計總署啊 帶回去一下因為這個可能各單位都有一個依循嘛尤其就是說 之前沒聘的這樣的研究生啦這樣的走歷 這些相關用業務費支應的這個總是要有一個依據啦 也就是依據的說一個指引各單位在編這個錢的時候大家知道 原來我們可以把它補回來或者是可以延伸 或者是怎樣不然各單位啊 我知道很多公務同仁啊"},{"start":488.015,"end":515.932,"text":"現在開始我們這裡解凍過之後 去到他的手裡的時候他還是問他 單位的財主人員說啊這個到底被弄掉那六個月啊 現在到底怎麼補回來所以待會去院裡頭 請這個主計總署給大家一個指引啦就是說以後這種費用 接下來這幾個月要怎麼處理啦好 我就同意 跟主計總署 我們跟他訂出一個概率出來讓大家來有一個共同的標準依選好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":514,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時22分）我們請監察院秘書長，還有人事行政總處人事長，謝謝。"],["主席：請李秘書長、蘇人事長。"],["王委員義川：好，在詢問兩位之前，今天在場所有的首長，在凍結案裡，我看到很多委員都有給一些要改進的意見、要補充的資料及書面報告，比如像法務部，請你們改進的東西非常多，這些委員當時的建議現在看起來都還蠻良善的，所以請你們記得，委員給的建議，報告務必要好好寫、要做改進，這是第一個。","第二個，請問監察院李秘書長，媒體說你們現在監察院好像都沒事情做，委員出門沒油錢，有司機、有車卻沒油錢，現在監察委員是都停擺了嗎？有在運作嗎？跟外界說明一下。還是說影響很大，你們的作法有很多調整，業務工作量有什麼改變嗎？跟大家說一下。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟王委員報告，自從立法院刪除預算以後，我們的業務費用被刪96%，所以我們現在很多費用是由監委自行出資，包括我們的油費……"],["王委員義川：真的假的？"],["李秘書長俊俋：都自己出錢。"],["王委員義川：真的假的？"],["李秘書長俊俋：真的，保險費都自己出錢，另外，我們堅持的原則就是有關憲法跟法律賦予我們的職責，我們還是要做，所以我們繼續在這個艱苦的環境下希望維持監察院的順利運作，到目前為止，我們的案量並沒有減少。"],["王委員義川：好，接下來請教一下有關財產申報，我上任時因為預算還沒被刪除，所以我還有辦法在網路插自然人憑證，資料就會跑出來，現在也是這樣嗎？現在是要改手寫還是怎樣？"],["李秘書長俊俋：現在有困難，因為監察院所有資訊系統相關費用都擺在我們的一般行政業務費用裡面，而一般行政業務費用全部被刪除，所以我們現在維護系統有困難，如果現在要財產申報恐怕要手動，一本、一本去刷簿子、一本、一本、一筆、一筆……"],["王委員義川：這哪有可能？"],["李秘書長俊俋：不然我們現在的系統就沒辦法動。"],["王委員義川：這樣會漏報，被你罰錢。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們也沒辦法，我們也不希望這樣。現實上最困難的其實是法務部跟司法院，他們現在就開始在申報了，所以叫苦連天，但我們真的愛莫能助，因為預算被砍掉了。"],["王委員義川：像我自己以前讀書去一間公司當工讀生，他就請我去開個戶頭，薪水就放在裡面，當然錢不多，可是我也可能會漏報，當然這個罪太小，也不會怎樣，可能剩幾萬塊、幾千塊在裡面，有些數量很小，可是因為有這個系統，大家很方便，插卡之後，政府就會告訴我哪裡有錢或哪裡有什麼東西，很清楚。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟王委員報告，大家遇到的情形都一樣，其實本來用自然人憑證插卡進去，你哪個戶頭有多少錢都非常清楚，像我這樣常常調動職務的人，我的帳戶很多，我自己都不記得。"],["王委員義川：你也不知道哪個存摺是哪個……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我也都不記得存摺到底放在哪裡，還有剩多少錢，我都不知道，過去憑自然人憑證就可以解決，我們再一筆一筆去聯絡各個銀行，因為這個系統的預算被刪除，所以我們現在沒有做維護的費用，所以目前這個系統是停擺，大家必須用手動一筆一筆報。"],["王委員義川：所以你們現在這個預算是被刪除了，也不是凍結？"],["李秘書長俊俋：刪除，也不是凍結。"],["王委員義川：所以接下來必須申報財產，有些要年度申報，有些有異動要申報，就會更困難了嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：就要用手工處理。"],["王委員義川：OK！好，接下來我請問一下人事總處的人事長，如果立院在5、6月把這個案子解掉了，比如各部會案子解掉了，因為裡面有一些預算跟人有關的，它的計算可能是人月，各單位可能有些委託研究計畫，比如委託學術機關、委託大學教授，它可能當時裡面有編行政助理、研究生，這個計畫如果在年底一定要執行完畢，顯然現在能夠用的費用可能只剩6個月，你們在接下來進行相關委託計畫的招標過程會不會就把這些預算給砍了，而凍結、解凍的金額，你還是用不到？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員。這個問題大概分兩個部分：一個是已簽約的部分，預算凍結的，我們直接就把人力需求降低，另外一種情況可能是在解凍之後，我們6月開始簽，如果這個計畫是到年底為止，人事費本來是使用12個月，我們會把它縮為7個月，就是在人力費用上面就按照他服務的月數來估算。"],["王委員義川：如果是還沒簽的就減少了，如果……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，還沒簽的就減少了。"],["王委員義川：好，人事總處有沒有去統計過，比如像這種大學研究生因為預算凍結，學校老師的研究經費變少了，可能在前面這幾個月老師說：你不用來了，我也不可能一個月給你好幾千。因為本來每個月有編8,000或1萬，像現在這種狀況。剛開始談凍結及預算審查的時候，聽說學校哀鴻遍野，很多學校的老師就跟研究生說：我沒辦法聘你，請問像這種單位有沒有一個波及範圍大概的數字？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，委員指教的這部分，以教育部跟國科會這種情況會比較多，公務機關基本上碰到這種問題的會比較少，因為剛才說在學校裡面一開始有些是by專案的……"],["王委員義川：對。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有些是用業務費去聘一些研究助理或者約用人員，之前有的就自己再重算，有的可能減聘人數，如果現在經費解凍以後，他們會針對業務的需要性，若有需要就可以增加，但是聘期本身比如從6月開始，就剩7個月，7月開始就剩6個月。"],["王委員義川：OK！我是建議這樣，可能請主計總處帶回去研議一下，因為各單位都要有一個依循，尤其是針對之前沒聘用的這些研究生及助理，在使用相關業務費支應的部分總是要有一個依據或指引，讓各單位在編這些錢的時候，能知道原來可以把它補回來或者是可以延伸或者是怎樣，不然我知道很多各單位公務同仁從現在開始，等我們這裡解凍之後回到他的手上，他還是要問單位的財主人員，到底被弄掉的那6個月要怎麼補回來。所以請帶回去院裡，請主計總處給大家一個指引，就是關於這種費用接下來這幾個月要怎麼處理。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，我回去會跟主計總處討論，我們會和他們訂一個指引出來，讓大家有共同的標準依循。"],["王委員義川：好，謝謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝王義川委員。","接下來請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-16","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","吳宗憲","沈發惠","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於監察院主管預算凍結項目共 1案；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管預算凍結項目共7案；三、審查及處理114年度中央\n政府總預算關於考試院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案；四、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於法\n務部及所屬主管預算凍結項目共23案","agenda_id":"1144802_00002"}}},{"id":"161217","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161217","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d52b88dd73cd5b66af7988fdfbeb5b668758c36c5eeff8411ba83b6116c1c0933fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"12:24:59 - 12:33:39","影片長度":"00:08:40","會議時間":"2025-05-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查(一)委員吳宗憲等17人、(二)委員賴士葆等28人、(三)委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」及(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工智慧發展及管理條例草案」案。\n二、審查(一)委員林俊憲等23人擬具「公路法第二十七條、第二十八條及第七十五條條文修正草案」、(二)委員陳冠廷等18人、(三)委員徐富癸等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「公路法第三十三條條文修正草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團、(六)委員馬文君等19人、(七)委員邱若華等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十九條之一條文修正草案」、(八)委員何欣純等18人擬具「公路法第四十六條及第六十條之一條文修正草案」、(九)委員王義川等16人擬具「公路法第六十五條條文修正草案」及(十)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「公路法第七十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查(一)委員林俊憲等22人擬具「停車場法第四條條文修正草案」、(二)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」及(三)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「停車場法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n【本日會議僅針對開會事由二及三進行合併詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-12","start_time":"2025-05-12T12:24:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-12T12:33:39+08:00","duration":520,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.98409375,"end":5.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.734718750000001,"end":6.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.51096875,"end":7.574093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.927843750000001,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.35221875,"end":80.06909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.44409375000001,"end":104.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.33534375,"end":154.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.71534375000002,"end":167.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.85721875000002,"end":167.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.95409375,"end":189.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.38409375,"end":170.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.45159375,"end":170.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.50221875,"end":170.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.92534375000002,"end":215.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.32221875000002,"end":236.71971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.71971875000003,"end":259.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.00721875,"end":269.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.30096875000004,"end":275.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.71784375000004,"end":283.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.95284375,"end":285.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.28159375,"end":296.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.71034375,"end":304.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.48971875,"end":311.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.11721875,"end":391.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.26096875,"end":396.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.50909375000003,"end":397.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.16284375000004,"end":401.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":402.46596875,"end":404.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.86221875,"end":406.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.31346875,"end":412.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":407.71409375,"end":407.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":412.92846875000004,"end":423.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.05346875000004,"end":423.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":423.08721875000003,"end":423.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.15471875000003,"end":423.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":423.71159375,"end":424.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.03221875,"end":430.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.10284375000003,"end":440.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.23221875,"end":447.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":448.46721875000003,"end":449.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.47971875,"end":449.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":449.95221875000004,"end":450.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.00284375,"end":450.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":450.03659375,"end":450.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.08721875000003,"end":450.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":450.55971875,"end":452.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":452.73659375000005,"end":454.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.79534375000003,"end":466.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.18159375000005,"end":471.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.87284375,"end":481.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.44096875,"end":484.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.05221875,"end":488.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.96721875000003,"end":493.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.70909375,"end":495.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.02471875000003,"end":499.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.54784375,"end":506.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.83784375000005,"end":506.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.87159375000005,"end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簡單說明一下如果說在充電樁有插在車上的情況下那因為有時候你要去判斷是他有沒有在充電他有一些技術上的問題或故障問題"},{"start":28.365,"end":53.426,"text":"就算沒有在充電你要移置其實你也移置不了因為插著的時候一般來說我們充電裝的這個充電孔它都有卡榫除非你用轉接頭不然的話它是拔不出來的所以說我希望後續的一些討論能夠聚焦在沒有在插充電這個插頭的情況下這樣子很明確違規的情況下不管是油車或電車的違規情況下那可不可以移置我也是主動通報希望後續針對這點討論那我今天"},{"start":55.928,"end":63.33,"text":"想跟市長討論一下這個罰單的部分交通違規罰單的部分交通違規罰單如果說我們民眾收到罰單如果都會有寫這個申訴的機制要嘛跟這個地方政府的交通事件裁決處處所或者是監理單位來做申訴我想確認一下我們這兩個單位在收到了之後他們大概都是會怎麼樣的來做後續的SOP"},{"start":85.34,"end":101.833,"text":"如果說是違規人跟大案處罰機關做這個申訴的話那針對他這個就是說申訴的這個室友的部分或是說相關認為說有疑慮的事項的部分的話那原則上處罰機關大概就會正式函請這個舉發機關來查復做說明"},{"start":104.783,"end":111.627,"text":"對 我遇到大部分的情況都是先函請給舉發機關做說明但一般來說舉發機關如果說認定違規是事實的話那我們這個裁決機關或監理單位他原則上都會尊重這個舉發機關如果是這樣子的一個狀態的話我不曉得我們的裁決機關它到底存在的意義是什麼"},{"start":126.434,"end":135.36,"text":"如果說他不會我們期待的監理機關他應該會是一個拔光的一個機制如果說我們的舉發單位他對於法條的認知有誤解或者是對違規形態的有所判斷錯誤的話我們的裁決機關他應該是要有一個撤銷的一個功能吧就是他要去做一個裁判的功能他應該要有吧但實務上我們這樣遇到一般來說都是這個舉發機關怎麼說裁決機關就怎麼做這樣子"},{"start":157.001,"end":182.205,"text":"這個部分我大概跟委員我們再報告一下大概就是說這針對這個陳警事項如果說是屬於市政的部分的話大概就會比較尊重這個舉發機關的差異那如果說是屬於適用條款的適當性的部分那如果說舉發機關很明顯他這樣子的一個這個違規行為所這個援引的條款是這個不得已的話那原則上這個舉發機關那個處罰機關"},{"start":185.606,"end":213.603,"text":"就會請舉發機關去變更適用的這個這個條款那如果說在本身這個裁決包括這個就是說處罰機關或原舉發機關如果認為說這樣子的違規行為適用處罰條例哪一個條款有疑慮等等的部分的話大概會有兩個管道第一個部分的話警察機關的部分大概會循著檢診系統到這個檢診署那檢診署如果認為說需要報部來示意的話就會有檢診署這邊報部來做"},{"start":215.384,"end":215.804,"text":"這個當然有現行的一個機制在啦"},{"start":239.659,"end":259.479,"text":"但是我為什麼會注意到這個問題就是我應該有些同仁知道我這過去一年來有還蠻關注在打方向燈這件事情上面什麼情況下要打什麼情況不用打那很多民眾檢舉就是檢舉民眾打方向燈當然變換車道這不用講就是穿越入口的一個形態那我遇到的問題是警察機關受理了"},{"start":260.16,"end":283.153,"text":"那警察認為違規他舉發了然後民眾申訴認為我應該不用打然後當然就跟這個裁決機關去做申訴裁決機關他也就尊重警察機關然後維持原判那最後我把這個交通部的這個解釋函就是一些相關的示函給警察單位去了解方向燈到底怎麼打的時候警察單位才去測單那就變成說我們好像"},{"start":286.728,"end":310.807,"text":"我們照理來說開罰單應該是有兩個民眾檢舉有兩個把關機制嘛一個是受理機關警察機關第二個就是我們的裁決機關結果我們兩個裁決機關好像都沒有人就是在我講的這個案例就是打方向燈的事情上面好像兩個單位都對於這個法例的適用都有所誤解那導致這個罰單開出去那申訴也都不會過那我可不可以請就是單就"},{"start":312.188,"end":318.272,"text":"這個部分當然一部分是教育訓練一部分是執法同仁的教育訓練一部分是我們自己監理機關跟這個裁決處的一個教育訓練如果說警察誤解法令的時候我們的這個裁決機關應該要去糾正我們的同仁那有了糾正的過了那之後警察知道了因為警察要管的事情太多他不會對每一條法令都很熟悉應該是我們交通單位對法令最熟悉那我們有相關的一個撤銷罰單之後"},{"start":338.524,"end":360.323,"text":"那警察單位也會知道未來這個形態可能有違規或沒有違規嘛這才是一個可能系統性的一個檢討那短期間內啦短期間內我們那個警政署也一起上來好不好組長短期間內因為我近期雖然說我對這個打方向燈這件事情有做了很多的討論那警政署也有幫我發行給各地的警察機關針對打方向燈這件事情去教育同仁"},{"start":360.723,"end":366.748,"text":"還是有很多錯誤的罰單開出來我可不可以請我們的裁決機關或者是我們的舉發機關你們可不可以針對打方向燈的這個沒有打方向燈誤開的罰單去做一個通盤性的一個檢視我相信一年絕對有上千萬的一個違規的罰金是誤開的"},{"start":382.842,"end":410.296,"text":"你們那個警政署你這邊可不可以因為我最近還你應該知道我講的這個我們常常討論這個東西嘛你們可不可以請某一個分怎麼樣來檢視過去錯誤的開的罰單因為很多民眾都沒有檢舉都沒有申訴啊那個開沒有方向沒有開方向燈喔這個大部分都是民眾檢舉違規的人啦對那剛剛委員所指的不是真的誤開的部分就是懂人對於法令不了解所開出來的這些罰單你們有沒有辦法通盤性的去檢討"},{"start":413.284,"end":430.535,"text":"這些單子我們可以整個調出來看看總共一年開了多少單子然後看看是不是比較有疑慮的我們再去檢視那個畫面好 我也不要造成警察同仁太大的負擔我一個請託啦你看他們做不做得到就是針對可能"},{"start":431.255,"end":446.571,"text":"今年1月1號開始到現在為止當然時間你們如果說認為太長的話你們可以提也沒關係就這段時間針對未打方向燈被開罰單的部分可不可以請我們的警察同仁去檢視有多少是誤開的"},{"start":448.77,"end":466.609,"text":"這個部分我們回去從1月1號開始重新檢視這個回去我們對我們調出來再研究一下看看好那當然在檢視的前提下是要先讓我們的警察同仁對於打方向燈這件事情有一個正確的一個認知那普遍要重新的教育宣導那另外我們的這個裁決機關至少我們公路局"},{"start":467.59,"end":495.667,"text":"我們是監理單位嘛我們可不可以針對所有民眾這個申訴的一個部分有關要不要打方向燈申訴的部分也從今年1月1號開始重新檢視看有多少是誤開的罰單那我們再給予主動的撤銷是 沒有問題我們會整個挑檔然後就整個陳情或者是那個舉發的這個太陽如果是跟原來布裡面的函式有不一致那需要撤銷的部分我們來處理好 那這個時間要需要多久"},{"start":499.005,"end":517.641,"text":"好 這個部分我們局原則上因為是非六都以外的監理站那我們自己可以一個月一個月嗎 對對對那警察 警政署這邊咧我們這邊也給一個月好嗎一個月 好 那就一個月好 謝謝 謝謝我們所有同仁 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":776,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（12時25分）謝謝主席，一樣請次長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，陳政次。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：次長好。有關我提的停車場法，我還是簡單說明一下，如果是充電樁有插在車上的情況下，因為有時候要去判斷有沒有在充電，可能會有一些技術上的問題或故障問題，就算沒有在充電，你要移置其實也移置不了，因為一般來說，充電樁的充電孔都有卡榫，除非你用轉接頭，不然是拔不出來的，所以我希望後續的一些討論能夠聚焦在沒有插在充電插頭的情況下，這樣很明確違規的情況，不管是油車或電車，在這樣違規的情況下可不可以移置或者是主動通報，希望後續針對這一點討論啦。","我今天想跟次長討論一下交通違規罰單的部分，針對交通違規罰單，民眾收到的罰單上都會寫申訴的機制，通常是跟地方政府交通事件裁決處所或監理單位申訴。我想確認一下，這兩個單位在收到民眾申訴之後，大概會怎麼樣做後續的SOP？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，如果是違規人跟到案處罰機關提出申訴的話，針對他申訴的事由，或是相關認為有疑慮的事項，原則上處罰機關大概就會正式函請舉發機關查復說明。"],["廖委員先翔：對，我遇到的大部分情況也都是先函請舉發機關說明，但一般來說，舉發機關如果認定違規是事實的話，裁決機關或監理單位原則上都會尊重這個舉發機關。如果是這樣的狀態，我不曉得我們的裁決機關存在的意義到底是什麼。我們期待的監理機關應該會是一個把關的機制，如果舉發單位對於法條的認知有誤解，或者是對違規型態判斷錯誤的話，我們的裁決機關應該要有一個撤銷的功能吧，就是它要去做裁判的功能，它應該要有吧，但實務上我所遇到的情況，一般來說都是舉發機關怎麼說，裁決機關就怎麼做。"],["林司長福山：這個部分我大概跟委員報告一下，針對陳情事項，如果是屬於事證的部分，大概就會比較尊重原舉發機關的查復……"],["廖委員先翔：事證？"],["林司長福山：如果是屬於適用條款的適當性部分，舉發機關很明顯對於這樣的違規行為援引的條款不得宜的話，原則上，處罰機關就會請舉發機關變更適用的條款。如果對於這個裁決本身，包括處罰機關或原舉發機關認為這樣的違規行為適用處罰條例的哪一個條款有疑慮的話，大概會有兩個管道：第一個，在警察機關的部分，大概會循著警政系統到警政署，警政署如果認為需要報部釋義的話，就會由警政署報部來做釋義。另外，在處罰機關的部分，包括六都交通局或者是公路總局，也會跟交通部看看這個條文如何解釋。另外，第三層實務的部分，六都的裁罰機構跟公路總局都有定期的裁罰工作圈會議……"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，這個當然有現行的一個機制在啦，但是我為什麼會注意到這個問題？應該有些同仁知道我在過去這一年來還滿關注在打方向燈這件事情上面，什麼情況下要打、什麼情況不用打，很多民眾檢舉就是檢舉沒有打方向燈嘛，當然變換車道這不用講，這是穿越路口的一個型態。我遇到的問題是警察機關受理了，警察認為違規，他舉發了，然後民眾申訴認為應該不用打，當然就跟裁決機關去申訴，裁決機關就尊重警察機關，然後維持原判。最後我把交通部的解釋函，就是一些相關的釋函，給警察單位去了解方向燈到底怎麼打的時候，警察單位才去撤單，那就變成說，照理說，開罰單在民眾檢舉之後應該有兩個把關機制嘛：一個是受理機關，也就是警察機關，第二個就是我們的裁決機關，結果在這個案例，也就是我講的打方向燈的事情上面，兩個單位對於法律的適用好像都有所誤解，導致這個罰單開出去，民眾提出申訴也都不會過，我可不可以單就這個部分，在教育訓練方面，一部分是執法同仁的教育訓練，一部分是監理機關跟裁決處的教育訓練。如果警察誤解法令的時候，裁決機關應該要去糾正我們的同仁，在被糾正過之後，警察就會知道了，因為警察要管的事情太多，他不會對每一條法令都很熟悉，應該是我們交通單位對法令最熟悉，在裁決機關撤銷罰單之後，警察單位也會知道未來這個型態是有違規還是沒有違規嘛，這才是一個系統性的檢討。在短期間內，請警政署的組長也一起上台，好不好？短期間內，近期雖然我對打方向燈這件事情有做了很多的討論，警政署也有幫我發函給各地警察機關，針對打方向燈這件事情去教育同仁，但是還是有很多錯誤的罰單開出來，我可不可以請裁決機關或者是舉發機關，你們可不可以針對沒有打方向燈被誤開罰單去做通盤性的檢視？我相信一年絕對有上千萬的違規罰金是誤開的。","警政署，你應該知道我講的這個情況，我們長時間討論到這個東西嘛，你們可不可以看看要怎麼樣檢視過去錯誤開罰的罰單？因為很多民眾都沒有申訴啊！"],["陳組長明志：沒有開方向燈的違規，大部分都是民眾檢舉違規的啦，剛剛委員所指的……"],["廖委員先翔：我是針對誤開的部分，就是同仁對於法令不了解所開出來的這些罰單，你們有沒有辦法通盤性的去檢討？"],["陳組長明志：這些單子我們可以整個調出來，看看總共一年開了多少單子，然後對於比較有疑慮的，我們再去檢視那個畫面。"],["廖委員先翔：好，我也不要造成警察同仁太大的負擔，我一個請託啦，你看他們做不做得到，就是針對可能今年1月1號開始到現在為止，這個時間如果你們認為太長的話，你們可以……沒關係，就這段時間，針對未打方向燈被開罰單的部分，可不可以請我們的警察同仁去檢視有多少是誤開的？"],["陳組長明志：好，這個部分我們回去再……"],["廖委員先翔：從1月1號開始重新檢視。"],["陳組長明志：這個部分，回去後，我們調出來再研究一下。"],["廖委員先翔：好，在檢視的前提下，是要先讓我們的警察同仁對於打方向燈這件事情有一個正確的認知，務必要重新教育宣導。","另外，我們的裁決機關，至少公路局，你們是監理單位嘛，可不可以針對所有民眾的申訴，有關要不要打方向燈申訴的部分，也從今年1月1號開始重新檢視，看看有多少是誤開的罰單，我們再給予主動撤銷？"],["陳局長文瑞：是，沒有問題，我們會整個挑檔，然後就陳情或者是舉發的態樣來看，如果跟原來部裡面的函釋有不一致、需要撤銷的部分，我們來處理。"],["廖委員先翔：好，時間需要多久？"],["陳局長文瑞：這個部分，我們局原則上因為是非六都以外的監理站，我們自己可以一個月……"],["廖委員先翔：一個月嘛？"],["陳局長文瑞：對，六都的部分……"],["廖委員先翔：那警察署這邊呢？"],["陳組長明志：我們這邊也給一個月好嗎？"],["廖委員先翔：一個月？好，那就一個月。"],["陳組長明志：書面回復。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝，謝謝所有同仁，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員。","請許智傑召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-11","speakers":["林國成","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","許智傑","陳素月","蔡其昌","何欣純","林俊憲","張啓楷","廖先翔","李昆澤","游顥","黃健豪","陳雪生","魯明哲","徐富癸","邱若華","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員吳宗憲等17人、(二)委員賴士葆等28人、(三)委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具「人\n工智慧基本法草案」及(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工智慧發展及管理條例草案」案；二、審查\n( 一) 委員林俊憲等23 人擬具「公路法第二十七條、第二十八條及第七十五條條文修正草案」、\n(二)委員陳冠廷等18人、(三)委員徐富癸等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」、\n(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「公路法第三十三條條文修正草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團、(六)委\n員馬文君等19 人、( 七) 委員邱若華等17 人分別擬具「公路法第三十九條之一條文修正草案」、\n(八)委員何欣純等18人擬具「公路法第四十六條及第六十條之一條文修正草案」、(九)委員王義\n川等16人擬具「公路法第六十五條條文修正草案」及(十)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「公路法第七十\n二條條文修正草案」案；三、審查 ( 一 ) 委員林俊憲等 22 人擬具「停車場法第四條條文修正草\n案」、(二)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」及(三)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「停車場法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。【本日會議僅針對開會事由二及三進行合併詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1144802_00001"}}},{"id":"161216","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161216","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d522c1b3cecae8b0569988fdfbeb5b668758c36c5eeff8411ba1f8b1bbbc21182005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"12:11:29 - 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公共運輸裡面如何友善高齡者嘛 對不對幸福巴士在推動的一個方向或是剛才講的通用計程車我是呼籲交通部確實要去研議一下啦"},{"start":374.179,"end":389.459,"text":"那這些都要做那除了駕駛偏跟公共運輸環境再來就是行人我們在談論行人我跟次長講一個數字台中的行人死亡事故大概有六成是長者"},{"start":390.901,"end":398.009,"text":"這個不是我說的這是他們台中市政府這個交通局表示的所以呢他們認為呢因為他們有拋出到這個數據他們要第一個要精準塔級要宣導道安觀念那這個剛好跟"},{"start":405.317,"end":431.352,"text":"陳士凱部長在去年9月的時候也講到我們今年的目標要7%那7%的死亡率裡面我們要降低那首重的是要鎖定長者來做宣導可是到了今天我們看到2025的5月我們這個台中的這個交通局還表示行人死亡裡面有6成是長者這個宣導到底有沒有用啊 次長"},{"start":435.325,"end":448.556,"text":"對老人的宣導確實是有他的一個困難度因為老人有他自己的想法所以如何來讓市長你不會這樣說市長你不會這樣說不是長者有他自己的想法所以你覺得困難所以你們宣導的方式到底有沒有到位你這一句話會讓人家"},{"start":456.926,"end":475.681,"text":"覺得質疑喔不是質疑,我跟文委員講,我是講自己心生的感受我爸爸我要告訴他,我做次長要告訴他就很困難我要告訴的是這個啦,我沒有在講說我們沒有,我是在講說對於老人的一個宣導,確實我們要再加把勁啦我是想要強調,只是我有一個有沒有想過如何加把勁"},{"start":477.222,"end":485.729,"text":"所以我們在這個對老人來講的話有所謂陸老師的宣導等等的結合林里長這樣的方式來做處理市長不要站在你們交通部的角度跟立場想說我只要去灌輸他們觀念"},{"start":494.295,"end":515.467,"text":"那能不能反向思考說我們如果把這個專業知識或是跟道安的相關的知識融入在生活當中用長者的角度他們聽得懂的角度他們能夠接受的角度去做宣導啦我們現在要精準改善嘛對不對我們現在陸老師在宣導其實都是採用這種方式在而不是教條式的我們教你怎麼怎麼"},{"start":517.188,"end":532.003,"text":"是透過他們自己相互之間形成一個類似像所以預算上我們支持嘛所以我知道在審預算的時候有其他委員對這一項預算是有意見的但是呢預算上我們都願意支持但是你要做好"},{"start":533.203,"end":555.698,"text":"做的成效如何我希望下一次我可以聽到比較精準的一個回答告訴我們這個對長者的宣導到底有沒有做到位那這個成效如何啦我希望看到的是不要再告訴我說在死亡人數裡面有餘六成是這個長者我也不要再看到說在道安總動員裡面的資訊告訴我們"},{"start":558.36,"end":574.193,"text":"原來說要宣導結果我們今年還是長者的這個死傷率是爬升的我覺得這個最重要的是要提醒拜託交通部相關單位對長者的交通的一個環境配套措施跟"},{"start":575.194,"end":592.469,"text":"一些該做的我們能夠做到位啦我接著要跟你講說除了宣導之外還有是你們現在可以做的就是行人的友善措施嘛第一個我們部長有宣示說要行人專用實相跟行人找開實相等等這個很好"},{"start":594.966,"end":620.596,"text":"以在交通部的建議裡面我爬梳到了你們是優先評估行人學童高齡者較多的入口來施行嘛那這個高齡者怎麼依據這個有媒體說在高齡社會裡面的紅燈到底該開幾秒是要等長輩還是逼他們走快一點這是一句這一句話就是體驗了我們現在在各大入口裡面看到長者"},{"start":623.654,"end":637.46,"text":"他過紅綠燈過那個路口的一個秒數到底能不能讓他們安全的過馬路如何讓長者安全的過馬路就是降低他們的死傷的機率嘛對不對 次長你同意嗎"},{"start":639.62,"end":648.811,"text":"我想跟委員報告這個因為路口啊或者就是號誌要幾秒這還牽涉到路口多寬啊所以呢原則上呢路口如果太寬的話現在都會有庇護島的方式來設計希望就是說這個這個"},{"start":655.839,"end":672.124,"text":"那另外呢 我的了解 我們也有宣導也有告訴這個長者就是說他大概 依他現在的步伐大概幾秒的時候適合通過那如果在幾秒內 他可能會過不去我們現在看到的這個 在這個標誌標線然後自設制規則裡面還沒有看到長者的啦這個是你們要去再精進的啦 是不是"},{"start":681.187,"end":684.81,"text":"我覺得這很重要啊你再來研議看看啦好不好我覺得這是用大數據或者是用我們的交通專業還有跟相關的老人長者團體大家一起研議可以去做出來看看"},{"start":698.021,"end":703.383,"text":"這個部分演繹 最後再給我十秒鐘我認為還有一件事是可以做的AI偵測 我們現在都在講AI AI數位那AI偵測事實上這個智慧路標也好或是路口的一個智慧監測也好現在是技術是OK的"},{"start":716.087,"end":741.129,"text":"那也有部分縣市的一些重大入口正在試辦試行那我們為什麼用這個也來可以第一個友善學童友善行人更應該友善高齡者我們長輩的行人那這個我認為提醒交通部也可以納入評估來看看能不能試行那如果試行成功的話可不可以擴大辦理啊"},{"start":743.115,"end":756.024,"text":"報告這樣的一個用導入AI來確保相關的交通安全的這樣的一個政策是部裡頭的一個政策所以現在我的了解不只是這裡頭提到的"},{"start":758.465,"end":776.8,"text":"台中像桃園等等 台中桃園嘉義我現在爬樹了一下都有在示範 都有在示範所以我們現在是在入口有這個智慧監測我的建議是包括行人專用的實相在入口裡面的一個智慧監測我們也可以運用 讓人多的時候秒數要"},{"start":778.301,"end":796.543,"text":"要拉長或者是老人家他需要比較大的路口老人家走路他可能需要比較長的這個秒數那我們如果透過智慧監測AI的監測可以幫忙我們所有的行人都安全好不好這個我們可以來研議看看來評估好不好以上謝謝謝謝何新淳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":716,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（12時11分）謝謝林召委，我們是不是請次長？"],["主席：交通部陳次長。"],["何委員欣純：次長好。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：首先，今天有關公路法我有提修法的版本，有修了兩個條文，我剛剛在法案說明的時候，我還是再強調一次，第一個，我希望未來如果有營業的大型車輛肇事，能夠保障我們受害者及其家屬、配偶等的權益，因為我們接受過太多陳情。營業車輛肇事致人於死或重傷的時候，通常因為營業車輛都是靠行，業者到底會不會有脫產之嫌以逃避他未來的賠償責任，我想這個是我們今天為什麼要修這個法案其中的一個重點。我不希望受害人已經遭受到生命安全的威脅，甚至失去了生命，但受害人的家屬跟配偶本身還得不到應有的公道，以及賠償的權益未受保障，我覺得這個很重要。雖然我聽到你的回答是說，可能在所謂主動通知的一個時效問題，我不知道次長說的意思是什麼。你另外又提到現在本來就在做了，所以不一定要通過修法。我希望你是不是書面資料再回給我，好不好？","第二個，有關你認為可以同意的部分，就是我們交通設施的行政單位要進入去檢測或者維修、巡查的時候，要徵得私有土地地主的同意，用雙掛號通知，你是同意的嘛，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們同意。"],["何委員欣純：好，記得喔！先把我剛剛說的書面報告，一個禮拜之內給我，你們現行如何做，如果不用透過修法就可以做，我想要知道如何可以更精進，我希望能夠推動。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我也請公路局檢討如何更主動通知。"],["何委員欣純：好，接著，很多委員曾經關心過高齡的交通設施跟環境安全的問題，我注意到的現象，我之前想要質詢但是時間上來不及，所以我今天又整理了一下。次長，你知道我們現在全臺灣的交通死亡事故差不多有一半是高齡者嗎？以你們所謂的道安總動員裡面，114年1到2月道路的交通事故統計，高齡者的死亡有211人，如果跟去年的同期比較起來死傷是微幅增加的，死傷是增加的，關於這個部分，次長有注意到這個現象嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們長期有發現這個問題。"],["何委員欣純：長期發現有這個問題，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["何委員欣純：好，全臺的交通死亡、死傷事故近半以上是高齡且又有再增加，那我們就必須要思考，臺灣現在即將邁入超高齡社會，將近有百分之二十以上會是高齡者，而我們的交通環境、設施、設備如何能夠守護長者的安全，我覺得這很重要，我們現在要去除行人地獄的污名化，但是我們同時要兼顧，不管是我們一直主張要維護學童的行人安全或是一般人在重大路口的行人交通安全，我覺得對於長者是更要注意的，第一個是在政策還有執行面上，以及法規制度面和你們的設置標準，應該要把高齡者的觀點跟他們的交通使用習慣納入考慮。","在駕駛篇上面，你們現在雖然有做高齡駕駛的換照制度，但是曾經被監察院糾正出沒有全面實施管理，管理只做半套，所以我們也有其他委員出面呼籲：第一個，邁入超高齡社會，我們如何保障高齡者的移動權以及兼顧他們的安全，這真的是刻不容緩的議題，所以我們呼籲政府研擬階段性的換照政策，是不是應該要再更精進？第二個，推動高齡者的再訓練課程補助，讓更多的高齡者駕駛人可以透過教育再訓練，在適合的教育訓練內容裡面讓他們能夠精進，更保障自己跟行人的安全。第三個，交通網絡配套措施的規劃，尤其是公共運輸系統如何友善高齡者。最後，這些通通要做到才是強化高齡者移動權的保障，對不對？次長，你應該同意吧？"],["陳次長彥伯：這裡有很多項目，其實我們目前正想辦法研議中，譬如說換照制度是不是公路局……就我的了解，他們也在想，現在是75歲以上，是不是可以再下修等等，甚至像這個訓練要補助等等。我們也發現很多高齡者其實是無照的，針對無照者如何輔導他們去考照，是不是也能夠像現在機車駕駛人一樣有補助。","後面您講到移動權這部分，關於高齡者的移動權，我想也是屬於公共運輸中很重要的……"],["何委員欣純：對啊，公共運輸裡面如何友善高齡者，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，幸福巴士推動的方向，或是剛才講的通用計程車是……"],["何委員欣純：我呼籲交通部確實要去研議一下，這些都要做，除了駕駛篇跟公共運輸環境，再來就是行人。我們在談論行人，我跟次長講一個數字，臺中的行人死亡事故大概有六成是長者，這個不是我說的，這是臺中市政府交通局表示的，所以他們認為……因為他們有爬梳到這個數據，他們要精準打擊、要宣導道安觀念。剛好陳世凱部長在去年9月時也講到，我們今年的目標是要降低7%的死亡率，首重是要鎖定長者宣導，可是到了今天（2025年5月），臺中的交通局還表示行人死亡裡面有六成是長者，這個宣導到底有沒有用啊？次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：對老人的宣導確實是有困難度，因為老人有他們自己的想法，所以如何讓這個……"],["何委員欣純：次長，你不能這樣講啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：是啊，所以我……"],["何委員欣純：不是長者有他們自己的想法，所以你覺得困難……"],["陳次長彥伯：沒有，所以我才會講到……"],["何委員欣純：這到底有沒有到位啊？"],["陳次長彥伯：沒有、沒有……"],["何委員欣純：你這一句話會讓人家覺得質疑喔！"],["陳次長彥伯：不是質疑，我跟委員講，我是講自己的親身感受，像我爸爸，我要跟他講……我做次長的要跟他講就很困難了，我要講的是這個啦，我沒有在講……我是在講，對於老人的宣導，確實我們要再加把勁，我是想要強調這個，只是我有一個引頭……"],["何委員欣純：你有沒有想過要如何加把勁？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，所以我們對老人有所謂的路老師宣導等等，結合鄰里長的方式處理……"],["何委員欣純：我提醒次長，不要站在你們交通部的角度跟立場灌輸他們觀念，能不能反向思考，我們如何把這個專業知識或是跟道安相關的知識融入在生活當中，用長者的角度、他們聽得懂的角度、他們能夠接受的角度去宣導？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我要跟委員說……"],["何委員欣純：既然要精準改善嘛，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：其實現在路老師宣導都是採用這種方式，而不是教條式的教他們要怎麼樣、怎麼樣……"],["何委員欣純：是。"],["陳次長彥伯：透過他們自己相互之間形成一個類似的共識來處理……"],["何委員欣純：所以預算上我們支持，雖然我知道審預算時有其他委員對這一項預算是有意見的，但是預算上我們都願意支持，可是你們要做好，至於做的成效如何，我希望下一次可以聽到比較精準的回答，告訴本席你們對長者的宣導到底有沒有做到位，以及成效如何。我希望看到的是，不要再告訴我死亡人數逾六成是長者，我也不要再看到道安總動員裡面的資訊告訴我，你們原來說要宣導，結果今年長者的死傷率還是爬升的。我覺得最重要的還是要提醒、拜託交通部相關單位，對於長者的交通環境、配套措施跟一些該做的都能夠做到位。","我接著要跟你講，除了宣導之外，你們現在還可以做的就是行人友善措施，第一個，部長有宣示要設行人專用時相跟行人早開時相等等，這個很好。我爬梳到交通部的建議裡面，你們是優先評估行人、學童、高齡者較多的路口來施行，那這個高齡者該怎麼依據？有媒體說，在高齡社會裡面的紅燈到底該開幾秒？是要等長輩還是逼他們走快一點？這一句話體現了現在在各大路口看到長者過紅綠燈、過路口的秒數，到底能不能讓他們安全的過馬路？如何讓長者安全的過馬路，就是降低他們的死傷機率嘛，對不對？次長，你同意嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，因為路口或者是號誌要幾秒牽涉到路口多寬……"],["何委員欣純：我當然知道啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：所以原則上，如果路口太寬的話，現在都以庇護島的方式設計，我希望這個……另外，就我的了解，我們也有宣導並告訴長者，依他們現在的步伐，大概幾秒的時候適合通過，如果在幾秒之內他們可能會過不去，是這樣讓他們了解。"],["何委員欣純：我們現在在標誌標線號誌設置規則裡面還沒有看到長者的，這個是你們要再精進的，是不是？我覺得這很重要啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：這個我們再來研議。"],["何委員欣純：你們再研議看看，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["何委員欣純：我覺得這可以用大數據或者用交通專業還有跟相關的老人、長者團體一起研議，可以做出來看看，這個部分請你們研議。","最後再給我10秒鐘。我認為還有一件事是可以做的，就是AI偵測，我們現在都在講AI、AI、數位，事實上AI偵測對於智慧路標也好，或是路口的智慧監測也好，現在的技術是OK的，也有部分縣市的重大路口正在試辦、試行。我們為什麼可以用這個？第一個，友善學童、友善行人，更應該友善高齡者、我們的長輩。我提醒交通部也可以把這個納入評估，看看能不能試行，如果試行成功的話，可不可以擴大辦理？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，用AI導入以確保相關的交通安全是部裡頭的政策，現在就我的了解，不只是這裡提到的臺中、桃園等等……"],["何委員欣純：臺中、桃園、嘉義，我現在爬梳了一下，他們都有在試辦。"],["陳次長彥伯：對，都有在試辦，所以……"],["何委員欣純：現在在路口有智慧監測，但我的建議是包括行人專用的時相，在路口的智慧監測也可以運用。"],["陳次長彥伯：這個可以來討論一下。"],["何委員欣純：人多的時候，秒數要拉長，或者是老人家在比較大的路口走路可能需要比較長的秒數。我們如果透過智慧監測、AI監測，可以幫忙所有的行人都安全，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：好，這個我們可以來研議……"],["何委員欣純：研議、評估看看好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，沒問題。"],["何委員欣純：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員。","請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-11","speakers":["林國成","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","許智傑","陳素月","蔡其昌","何欣純","林俊憲","張啓楷","廖先翔","李昆澤","游顥","黃健豪","陳雪生","魯明哲","徐富癸","邱若華","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員吳宗憲等17人、(二)委員賴士葆等28人、(三)委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具「人\n工智慧基本法草案」及(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工智慧發展及管理條例草案」案；二、審查\n( 一) 委員林俊憲等23 人擬具「公路法第二十七條、第二十八條及第七十五條條文修正草案」、\n(二)委員陳冠廷等18人、(三)委員徐富癸等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」、\n(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「公路法第三十三條條文修正草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團、(六)委\n員馬文君等19 人、( 七) 委員邱若華等17 人分別擬具「公路法第三十九條之一條文修正草案」、\n(八)委員何欣純等18人擬具「公路法第四十六條及第六十條之一條文修正草案」、(九)委員王義\n川等16人擬具「公路法第六十五條條文修正草案」及(十)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「公路法第七十\n二條條文修正草案」案；三、審查 ( 一 ) 委員林俊憲等 22 人擬具「停車場法第四條條文修正草\n案」、(二)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」及(三)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「停車場法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。【本日會議僅針對開會事由二及三進行合併詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1144802_00001"}}},{"id":"161215","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161215","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d5220c01055eb150947988fdfbeb5b668758c36c5eeff8411ba555062629d9f47525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"12:00:50 - 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也質詢過不過當然我們江部都有自愛難省的一個部分我們也看到育年所在108年的時候也有針對氣燃費徵收做一個研究報告結論也是說維持隨車徵收"},{"start":75.541,"end":93.278,"text":"那現在就是說因為隨著這個時間的推移因為108年到現在也又過了8年也快又快了好幾年了67年了所以就是說經過這樣子的一個時間時空的轉移我們對這個部分有沒有新的想法"},{"start":97.219,"end":114.56,"text":"我想我跟委員報告有關這個如何徵收的這個方式也是剛才陳主委員剛才講的這在其實在歷好幾年了不是歷年大概大家都一直在提從以前的這個隨車到隨郵甚至有人提到說"},{"start":116.162,"end":131.227,"text":"按里程按重量等等的都有那其實這樣的一個議題就是因為不管是採用哪一個方式來徵收都有它的優點跟它的缺點那整體上的考量還是第一個要考慮公平那另外一個是"},{"start":132.288,"end":153.928,"text":"徵收的一個整個成本也好或者整個的收入也好因為進來以後要來做養護的工作或修建的工作另外是民眾的可負擔性所以整體上來看目前還是朝向的既有的隨車徵收的方式但是我們也聽到的大家各界的一個建議尤其是電動車輛引進以後"},{"start":155.629,"end":174.208,"text":"所以目前我們也正為請這個運營所做相關的研究我們希望能夠再繼續一個觀察一下或者是了解一下世界各國隨著這樣的近鄰的議題以後或者是隨著科技的進步以後是不是有什麼樣一個徵收的方式因為這樣的一個徵收方式不是只有我們"},{"start":175.45,"end":186.842,"text":"其實各國也都有在實行而且我們看到各國實施上多數也是採用隨車徵收的一個方式所以目前才是用這樣的方式繼續再徵收 以上"},{"start":187.333,"end":206.869,"text":"是好那今天就是委員會針對這個公路法第27條就是有委員提案這個進行詢問那當然就是我們也認為說如果說我們沒有辦法將汽車燃料使用費改由隨有徵收的話可能跟我們目前的第27條的這個"},{"start":209.011,"end":227.408,"text":"條文的就是說這一個項目的名稱跟目的是不符合的所以就主張說這個條文裡面就是說公路主管機關為了公路養護及修建安全管理所需費用得徵收汽車燃料使用費所以為了讓民使相輔所以也建議"},{"start":228.53,"end":242.129,"text":"不如就是將這樣子的一個徵收的一個項目名稱更正為公路養護修建及安全管理費那這樣子來修訂我們交通部這邊的意見跟態度是如何"},{"start":243.275,"end":267.871,"text":"這樣的一個方向我們贊同至於說文字是不是要這麼長是需要這麼多字我想到我們主條再討論的時候我們再來大家再來討論如果改成這樣子的一個項目名稱的話當然就是可以涵蓋未來可能就是要徵收的電動車這種車種如果說用汽車燃料使用費汽燃費的話可能就徵收不到"},{"start":268.651,"end":285.195,"text":"對 會排除這個非使用汽油的車種車輛嘛所以這樣子也是又有公平性的問題那當然這個部分就是有待大家的一個討論跟共識啦好 那再來就是有關這個新車平等的這個計畫的問題"},{"start":288.616,"end":296.907,"text":"我們知道就是交通部為了推動就是評估新車的安全性所以我們也在張濱有興建了這個測試中心那時候在落成的時候由蘇貞昌院長主持本席也有去參與那這個目的主要就是說要透過"},{"start":306.78,"end":311.065,"text":"獨立的第三方機構對市售車輛進行試驗並將這個試驗的數據轉換成新等評級然後提供民眾易於理解在選購車輛的時候對這個車輛的安全性的資訊能夠有比較充分的一個了解跟掌握"},{"start":326.022,"end":342.749,"text":"我覺得這個很好我們也很肯定那當然就是說這個也是涉及到預算的問題那這個等一下我再來詢問那我先想了解一下目前我們這個成立之後我們所進行的測試目前為止大概完成了多少量"},{"start":345.066,"end":366.134,"text":"跟委員報告一下大概目標都是每年8台那去年有做到8台嗎好像沒有去年6台去年才6台因為去年的預算有稍微這個結局一點然後今年就恢復這個8台然後包括這個車廠自費來申請這個測試的到目前已經完成18個車型"},{"start":374.157,"end":392.564,"text":"十六個車型是包含車廠 車商自費的那在這些完成就是測驗的車輛裡面有包括電動車嗎有 特斯拉大概應該是完成這兩型了"},{"start":394.441,"end":411.768,"text":"完成兩行嘛因為本席看到的資料裡面就是我們TN-CAP目前已經試驗完成的兩台這個電動車就是包括這個Model 3跟Model Y 是不是這個完成的時間好像都是最近才完成的去年跟今年"},{"start":412.228,"end":439.386,"text":"去年跟今年那因為我們也關注到就是說其實在電動車逐漸讓駕駛人能夠接受使用之後我們也陸續看到好幾件這個車禍的事故那包括就是在這個是在國外發生的有2021年12月在巴黎發生的一件就是Model 3的這個車型的一個"},{"start":440.387,"end":455.709,"text":"撞擊之後發生的火燒車事件包括2024年9月20號這是在國內新竹發生的也是撞了護欄之後起火燃燒然後2024年10月份是在加拿大"},{"start":456.73,"end":471.23,"text":"的多輪作發生的也是Model Y失控撞傷忽然之後起火還有包括今年1月25號國道1號陽梅休息站的這是也是電動車撞擊之後起火造成44傷"},{"start":473.012,"end":498.53,"text":"因為這樣子的一個電動車的撞擊失火的這樣的事故事實上在基層我也聽到很多民眾的一個疑慮那當然就是我們也看到說對照目前我們TNCAP所做的這個測試我們也當然很高興有看到這樣的測試可是要怎樣讓消費者對這個有信心是不是可以請次長講一下"},{"start":500.748,"end":521.881,"text":"跟委員報告現在這個2050淨零碳排這個電動車這個讓民眾有信心對它這個安全這個值得信賴這個是最重要的一個課題那所以就是說針對這個我想針對電動小客車的部分剛剛委員所提到這個TN cable那個是一個更高標準的要求"},{"start":522.421,"end":551.2,"text":"然後在這個車輛在做這個法規符合性車輛安全檢測基準的這個檢測的時候剛剛市長也有提到針對這個電動車的安全性台灣跟歐盟跟日本一樣都是條合聯合國UNR100的這個法規進來那這個R100的一個法規就包括整車的電氣這個防護功能還有包括電池本身的部分都要去做這個"},{"start":553.282,"end":576.138,"text":"這個碰撞那其實我也這個我想說這個也不是打這個廣告像特斯拉這個部分的話在車輛安全這個就要上市銷售這個火線已經撞過一次了然後在這個去年跟前年的這個TNCAP的部分的話也在做這個實在碰撞那基本上大概這個都沒有發生爆炸起火這樣子的情況"},{"start":577.727,"end":586.438,"text":"剛剛有提到說TN CAP是比較高的標準那一般就是在市面上銷售的也是都會符合這樣子的標準嗎"},{"start":587.612,"end":609.865,"text":"要有正面碰撞就是要做實車碰撞然後側撞也要用台車再做一次碰撞那電池基本上都在車底下面所以這樣子一撞會不會滲漏然後甚至靜置完之後會不會起火這個都是在法規的要求裡面"},{"start":610.467,"end":626.859,"text":"是好我想這個也是民眾非常關心的這個就是電動車的一個安全性的問題然後那我們也當然希望就是說讓這樣的資訊也要讓國人能夠充分的能夠知道這樣子好謝謝我們加強宣導是謝謝陳樹葉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":677,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（12時）謝謝主席，請主席邀請次長。"],["主席：交通部陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：次長早安。"],["陳次長彥伯：早。"],["陳委員素月：平常本席在地方經常會遇到民眾反映，我們的汽車燃料費為什麼不改成隨油徵收或者是隨里程徵收？這樣子比較公平，因為有人的車子可能使用頻率不高，也許是只有假日才使用，所以他們認為如果按照目前隨車徵收的話，對於使用頻率比較低的車主來說比較不公平。這個議題其實在過去我也曾經提過案，也質詢過，當然交通部都有窒礙難行的部分。我們也看到運研所在108年的時候，也有針對汽燃費徵收做一個研究報告，結論也是維持隨車徵收。隨著時間的推移，108年到現在又過了6、7年，經過這樣子的時間、時空轉移，你們對這個部分有沒有新的想法？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，有關如何徵收及徵收方式誠如委員剛才講的，其實好幾年來，歷年大家都一直在提，從以前的隨車到隨油，甚至有人提到按里程、按重量等等的都有。其實關於這樣的一個議題，不管採用哪一個方式徵收都有它的優點跟它的缺點，整體上的考量來講，第一個還是要考慮公平，另外一個是徵收的成本也好，整個的收入也好，它進來以後要做養護的工作或修建的工作，另外是民眾的可負擔性，所以整體上來看，目前還是朝向既有的隨車徵收方式。但是我們也聽到各界的建議，尤其是電動車輛引進以後，目前我們也正委請運研所做相關的研究。我們希望能夠繼續再觀察一下，並且了解一下世界各國隨著淨零議題或者隨著科技進步以後，是不是有什麼樣的徵收方式。因為這樣的徵收方式並非只有我們才有，其實各國也都有在實行，而且我們看到各國實施上多數也是採用隨車徵收的方式，所以目前還是用這樣的方式繼續徵收。以上。"],["陳委員素月：今天委員會針對公路法第二十七條委員提案進行詢答，當然我們也認為，如果沒有辦法將汽車燃料使用費改成隨油徵收的話，可能跟我們目前第二十七條條文的項目名稱、目的不符合。而這個條文裡面規定，公路主管機關為了公路養護、修建及安全管理所需費用，得徵收汽車燃料使用費。為了讓名實相符，也有建議不如將徵收項目名稱更正為公路養護、修建及安全管理費。針對這樣子修訂，交通部的意見跟態度是如何？"],["陳次長彥伯：這樣的一個方向我們贊同，至於文字是不是要這麼長、需要這麼多字，我想到逐條討論的時候，大家再來討論。"],["陳委員素月：是，如果改成這樣子的項目名稱的話，當然就是可以涵蓋未來要徵收的電動車這種車種嘛，如果說用汽車燃料使用費、汽燃費的話，可能就徵收不到電動車？"],["陳次長彥伯：對，會排除非使用汽油的電車。"],["陳委員素月：非使用汽油的車種，所以這樣子又有公平性的問題啦！"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["陳委員素月：當然這個部分有待大家的討論跟共識啦！再來，有關新車評等計畫的問題，我們知道交通部為了推動評估新車的安全性，所以在彰濱興建了測試中心，落成的時候由蘇貞昌院長主持，本席也有參與。這個目的主要就是要透過獨立的第三方機構對市售車輛進行試驗，並將試驗的數據轉換成星等評級，讓民眾易於理解，在選購車輛的時候，對車輛安全性的資訊能夠有比較充分的了解跟掌握啦！我覺得這個很好，我們也很肯定，當然這個也是涉及到預算的問題，這個等一下我再來詢問啦！我先想了解一下，我們成立之後進行的測試，目前為止大概完成了多少輛？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，目標大概都是每年……"],["陳委員素月：每年八臺？"],["林司長福山：對。"],["陳委員素月：去年有做到八臺嗎？好像沒有。"],["林司長福山：去年六臺。"],["陳委員素月：去年才六臺嘛！"],["林司長福山：因為去年的預算有稍微拮据一點，然後今年就回復到八臺，包括車廠自願來自費申請測試的，到目前已經完成18個車型。"],["陳委員素月：多少？"],["林司長福山：16個車型。"],["陳委員素月：16個車型是包含車商自費的？"],["陳次長彥伯：自費的部分。"],["陳委員素月：好，那在這些完成測驗的車輛裡面，有包括電動車嗎？"],["林司長福山：有，特斯拉應該是完成這兩型了。"],["陳委員素月：完成兩型嘛，好，因為本席看到的資料裡面就是我們TNCAP目前已經試驗完成兩臺電動車，就是包括MODEL 3跟MODEL Y是不是？"],["林司長福山：是。"],["陳委員素月：完成的時間好像都是最近才完成的？"],["林司長福山：去年跟今年。"],["陳委員素月：去年跟今年，因為我們也關注到，其實電動車逐漸讓駕駛人能夠接受使用之後，我們也陸續看到好幾件車禍的事故，包括在國外發生的，2021年12月在巴黎發生的一件MODEL 3車型撞擊之後發生的火燒車事件；包括2024年9月20號，這是在國內新竹發生的，也是撞了護欄之後起火燃燒；然後2024年10月份是在加拿大的多倫多發生的，也是MODEL Y失控撞上護欄之後起火；還有包括今年1月25號，國道一號楊梅休息站的也是電動車撞擊之後起火，造成4死4傷嘛！因為電動車撞擊失火這樣的事故，事實上在基層我也聽到很多民眾的疑慮啦，我們也看到對照目前TNCAP做的這個測試，我們當然很高興有看到這樣的測試，可是要怎樣讓消費者對這個有信心，是不是可以請司長講一下？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，現在2050淨零碳排電動車要讓民眾有信心，安全、值得信賴這個是最重要的一個課題，所以針對電動小客車的部分，剛剛委員所提到這個TNCAP，那是一個更高標準的要求，然後在車輛做法規符合性車輛安全檢測基準檢測的時候，剛剛次長也有提到，針對電動車的安全性，臺灣跟歐盟、日本一樣，都是調合聯合國UN-R100這一個法規進來，而這個R100的法規就包括整車電器防護功能，還有電池本身的部分都要去做碰撞。其實我想這個也不是打廣告，像特斯拉，在車輛安全方面要上市銷售時，這個法規符合性已經撞過一次了，然後在去年跟前年的TNCAP部分也在做實車碰撞，基本上都沒有發生爆炸起火這樣的情況。"],["陳委員素月：是，你剛剛有提到TNCAP是比較高的標準，一般在市面上銷售的也都會符合這樣子的標準嗎？"],["林司長福山：都要正面碰撞，就是要實車碰撞、側撞，也要用這一臺車再做一次碰撞。電池基本上都在車體下面，所以這樣子一撞會不會滲漏，甚至靜置完之後會不會起火，這個都是在法規的要求裡面。"],["陳委員素月：好，我想這個也是民眾非常關心的電動車安全性問題啦，我們當然也希望這樣的資訊要讓國人能夠充分的知道，好，謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們會加強宣導。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月委員。","請何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-11","speakers":["林國成","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","許智傑","陳素月","蔡其昌","何欣純","林俊憲","張啓楷","廖先翔","李昆澤","游顥","黃健豪","陳雪生","魯明哲","徐富癸","邱若華","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員吳宗憲等17人、(二)委員賴士葆等28人、(三)委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具「人\n工智慧基本法草案」及(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工智慧發展及管理條例草案」案；二、審查\n( 一) 委員林俊憲等23 人擬具「公路法第二十七條、第二十八條及第七十五條條文修正草案」、\n(二)委員陳冠廷等18人、(三)委員徐富癸等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」、\n(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「公路法第三十三條條文修正草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團、(六)委\n員馬文君等19 人、( 七) 委員邱若華等17 人分別擬具「公路法第三十九條之一條文修正草案」、\n(八)委員何欣純等18人擬具「公路法第四十六條及第六十條之一條文修正草案」、(九)委員王義\n川等16人擬具「公路法第六十五條條文修正草案」及(十)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「公路法第七十\n二條條文修正草案」案；三、審查 ( 一 ) 委員林俊憲等 22 人擬具「停車場法第四條條文修正草\n案」、(二)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」及(三)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「停車場法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。【本日會議僅針對開會事由二及三進行合併詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1144802_00001"}}},{"id":"161214","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161214","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d520915e3581c198da335f3e47612ac34e98c36c5eeff8411ba24b690559eb13b985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:00:39 - 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健康有序的環境來進行"},{"start":96.912,"end":116.521,"text":"都溝通啦然後多一些和平少一些對立要不然的話老實講再這樣下去陸委會不是只有預算凍結現在解凍陸委會搞不好應該都要拆掉沒有功能了沒有需要我們同仁現在還在履行兩岸條例跟港澳條例的相關業務我們陸委會同仁戰戰兢兢的那麼業務上其實也相當的繁重"},{"start":121.683,"end":134.509,"text":"主委我看你今天這個解凍報告提到說我們台灣現在有36萬6千個陸配家庭用大概4個人來算好了"},{"start":136.015,"end":163.15,"text":"大概有150萬陸配的這個家庭跟陸配有關係的才會報國盤對不對我看你的這個報告裡面講到說要協助陸配家庭深入去融入我國社會的生活等政策對不對要多努力我們希望多一些協助多一些照顧那最近啊老實講不只沒有協助我感覺最近啊去推民國94年之前也就是2004年"},{"start":168.774,"end":173.827,"text":"2004年3月1號之前要陸配回去找21年以前的大陸"},{"start":175.626,"end":205,"text":"他的除籍資料老實講是有強人手懶當然這段時間包括你也到我辦公室我們都有協調我大概有六次開了六次協調會你已經是我第四次執行這個問題了那我們現在看起來有些突破可是老實講照顧還是不夠的那我們先來講我們現在做了哪些事情可是有些地方我們進一步來解決好不好我先問你現在最新的一個解決方案就是很多陸配跟二代接到你們通知之後"},{"start":207.55,"end":235.141,"text":"很擔心會不會戶籍被取消或者甚至被驅逐出境變成人囚現在我們初步的一個突破是這樣子一方面我們先治標跟治本治標我們現在做的就是現在開始接受申請包括你可以本人到移民署也可以用郵件也可以用紙本然後接到之後是不是一個月內你們本身就要做好這個審查"},{"start":237.483,"end":254.95,"text":"跟委員報告有關於現在的這些專案在協處的那剛剛委員說因為年代久遠那如果他手邊沒有任何的證明文件我們移民署跟海基會都會提供讓他有所本"},{"start":255.45,"end":275.137,"text":"第二個他可能在放棄大陸原籍可能還有許多的自愛難行我們要感謝委員包括您還有你們辦公室團隊都積極的在協助那我們也協助你們辦公室所轉來的個案都得到充分的協助那我們要跟委員講"},{"start":276.537,"end":298.435,"text":"這個案子並不是在找陸培家庭的麻煩而是我們在疫情期間做了第一波清理然後回溯清理發現還是有人沒有一直到剛剛委員所說2004年3月1號之前那些放棄大陸園籍的很多都沒有放棄我們是也可以把問題蓋下來但是我們選擇面對問題勇於承擔而且找出解決問題的方法"},{"start":305.701,"end":323.177,"text":"讓我們的陸配家庭真的有機會不要受貶質疑他在台灣的生活是合法的在這個前提下才能安居樂業我們是朝這個目的來做當然有一些資深陸配家裡或是他二代這個我們要提供許多的協助"},{"start":324.718,"end":342.21,"text":"我們今天最重要是要解決問題啦政府存在的目的不是製造問題是解決問題所以我們共同努力嘛我們現在很清楚跟現在擔心的陸配跟二代我們今天很清楚跟他講他現在本來他們擔心是什麼你4月2號寄通知你要三個月內要他們完成初級嘛對不對"},{"start":343.13,"end":352.415,"text":"時間快到了喔你要跟我們聯繫就不用擔心有被觸及的問題所以現在跟陸委會跟移民署跟海基會聯繫上就沒有問題我們都會抓人跟他輔導來解決他的問題所以不會有六月底或者七月初被觸及這個問題我們都會全力協助所以你們只要去申請你們就會給他一個通知嘛對不對然後會有三個可能來來看一看有三種可能來"},{"start":372.845,"end":401.66,"text":"第一個你們同意讓他用用切結的方式來取代對不對這是第一種這是最理想的就是說你真正沒辦法回大陸去或者你資料已經找不到了你就同意他用切結這是最好的一個方式對不對第二種雖然沒辦法用用拒絕可是你會同意他閃年對不對另外最壞最後一種狀況你不同意終究不同意的話你還是至少會給他三個月內三個月的閃年時間是不是這樣"},{"start":403.547,"end":428.384,"text":"就是最右邊這一欄嘛最後面這一欄真的是就是自愛男性有特別的狀況我們也會專案來替他協助所以只要找到你們或者到我們辦公室我們把案子轉過去就可以爭取到時間有這三個解決的方案那當然治本還是要修法啦這是治標所以民眾黨會提出修法我們是希望在93年"},{"start":429.665,"end":431.548,"text":"大陸現在有四個省份啦現在山東、山西、安徽跟浙江他們都不發啦 這怎麼解決"},{"start":446.069,"end":461.078,"text":"跟委員報告您剛講這些拒絕提供我們陸配朋友回去放棄他的原籍證明拒絕給他除籍文件這個事都極少數那這些都是個案"},{"start":462.011,"end":481.123,"text":"那個案的部分我們就來協助溝通聯繫五個省份啦,大概不會少數啦,不過反正案子真的是個案,我們截至目前為止都蠻順利的就用專案去幫忙啦,好不好?抱歉抱歉,因為時間拖太久了,不好意思我用兩分鐘,主席兩分鐘你先請我好不好,我請那個中選會主委不好意思喔,謝謝因為這問題蠻嚴重,我請問一下"},{"start":491.975,"end":508.154,"text":"這次2024年總統大選的時候,有出現一個屏東縣中正國小146投開票手我們看一下這個畫面,這個你應該都有看過那個錄影帶他們就是在懷疑或者是在質疑說這個紙箱"},{"start":510.532,"end":531.552,"text":"所以他希望你怎麼折,你後來一定有折起來的地方,也有夾層嘛那他這個是拍到說折層的,有些那個選票掉出來嘛那我們來解決這個問題,好不好我們來解決這個問題,現在有人都提出來說你紙箱一定有折痕啊,那你能不能做一個底面是透明壓克力板的"},{"start":532.901,"end":550.946,"text":"是不是能夠解決問題這個選務的這個相關的設備器具 應用物品有這樣子的問題而引起社會的議論或者甚至於所謂的恐慌 我覺得很不值得就對了"},{"start":551.306,"end":569.344,"text":"所以我積極在進行研究怎麼樣能夠去除這樣子的一個疑慮當然委員所建議的這個我們也會列入考慮我們會積極的去研究如何能夠讓老百姓這個投票人他們完全有信心"},{"start":571.282,"end":588.493,"text":"很有可能會這樣做對不對可能的方式我們都不排除中選會公正性專業性一定要被肯定這個是你的重責大任對不對我再給你看一下你看這個開票2024年開票的時候雲林東名村你看這個開票綠色的是賴清德的"},{"start":593.905,"end":620.527,"text":"跟這個政黨票右邊這藍色是國民黨的侯友宜左邊這是柯文哲的總統票跟政黨票你們發現落差太大了雲林的東明村新北市的這個井南里賴清德的政黨票跟民進跟民進的政黨票都很近對不對國民黨侯友宜跟國民黨的政黨票很近可是你看那個那邊柯文哲154票政黨票才開了10票"},{"start":621.414,"end":641.469,"text":"然後井南里277票 政黨票才開30我再繼續給你看喔花蓮啊仁里村也是這種狀況柯匯澤開202票 政黨票竟然只有一票可是你看賴清德跟侯友宜的跟政黨票都是一致的右邊這個桃園市的果林里也是這種狀況"},{"start":646.005,"end":671.114,"text":"我覺得這個落差太大了我們發現如果有異常狀況的話都會要求主任管理員他再要double check一定要做再重新一次的來做確認而且這個確認有三道手續有三道關卡的確認所以作為醫療行政總控就是應該在很快的時間內要再清查一次嗎那當然那今天我做個簡單的結論你剛剛講的我剛剛講"},{"start":675.117,"end":687.903,"text":"公正性 被信任非常重要這應該是你的重責大任嘛所以剛剛講那個紙箱那個一定要趕快好好去討論好不好我剛剛講那個底部用壓克力板透明的這是非常多人我們想辦法來克服好不好 今天往這個方向來走好 謝謝委員好 謝謝登記發言委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":955,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時）請陸委會邱垂正主委。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，你是哪裡人？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我是新竹人。"],["張委員啓楷：新竹人，如果照行政院官網，有漢人跟其他人，對不對？你是哪裡人？如果照行政院官網的分類，你說你是新竹，那你是新竹哪邊的人？"],["邱主任委員垂正：新竹市。"],["張委員啓楷：是漢人還是其他人？"],["邱主任委員垂正：一般漢人。"],["張委員啓楷：你是漢人？行政院現在把96.2%的漢人變成是其他人，所以你說你是漢人，那以後你就是其他人，是不是？照這樣分類，是不是其他人？陸委會主委，這個問題很重要，現在民進黨政府一直在推動去中化、去漢化，你的工作會不會很難做？"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員，我們並沒有做委員所說那樣的事情。"],["張委員啓楷：現在兩岸看起來很多事都停擺，我看你很多業務都推動的……"],["邱主任委員垂正：還是有在持續地進行交流，只不過我們去統戰化、去政治化，讓交流回歸到對等尊嚴、健康有序的環境來進行。"],["張委員啓楷：對，多溝通啦！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員啓楷：然後多一些和平，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員啓楷：少一些對立，要不然的話，老實講，再這樣下去，陸委會不是只有預算凍結，今天在解凍，陸委會搞不好以後都要裁掉，因為沒有功能了，沒有需要啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們同仁現在還在履行兩岸條例跟港澳條例的相關業務，我們陸委會同仁都戰戰兢兢的，業務其實也相當地繁重，更重要的……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我看你今天的解凍報告提到，我們臺灣現在有36萬6,000個陸配家庭，一個家庭用大概4口人來算好了，大概有150萬個陸配家庭，跟陸配有關係的差不多150萬，對不對？我看你的這個報告裡面有講到，要協助陸配家庭深化、融入我國社會生活等政策，對不對？要多努力！"],["邱主任委員垂正：這是我們職責所在。"],["張委員啓楷：對，我們希望多一些協助、多一些照顧。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員啓楷：老實講，最近不只沒有協助，我覺得最近在推民國93年，也就是2004年3月1號之前……要陸配回去找21年以前他在大陸的除籍資料，老實講是強人所難。當然，這段時間，包括你也到我辦公室，我們都有協調，我大概開了六次協調會，這已經是我第四次質詢這個問題了，我們現在看起來有些突破，可是老實講，照顧還是不夠，我先來講我們現在做了哪些事情，有些地方我們再進一步來解決，好不好？"],["邱主任委員垂正：好。"],["張委員啓楷：我先問你，現在最新的一個解決方案就是很多陸配跟他們的二代接到你們的通知之後，很擔心會不會戶籍被取消，或者甚至被驅逐出境，變成人球。現在我們初步的突破是這樣子，一方面我們先治標跟治本，治標的部分我們現在做了，就是現在開始接受申請，對不對？包括可以本人到移民署，也可以用郵件、用紙本，對不對？然後接到之後，是不是一個月內你們就要做好審查？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，有關現在這些在協處的專案，剛剛委員也說因為年代久遠，如果他手邊沒有任何的證明文件，我們移民署跟海基會都會提供，讓他有所本。","第二個，他可能在放棄大陸原籍的部分還有許多窒礙難行之處，我們要感謝委員，包括您，還有你們辦公室團隊都積極地協助，我們也讓你們辦公室轉來的個案都得到充分的協助。我要跟委員講，這個案子並不是在找陸配家庭的麻煩，而是我們在疫情期間做了第一波清理，然後回溯清理時發現，還是有人沒有放棄，一直到剛剛委員所說的2004年3月1號之前，那些要放棄大陸原籍的，很多都沒有放棄，我們是也可以把問題蓋下來，但是我們選擇面對問題，勇於承擔，而且找出解決問題的方法，讓我們的陸配家庭真的有機會不要受別人質疑，讓他在臺灣的身分是合法的，在這個前提下，才能安居樂業，我們是朝這個目的來做。"],["張委員啓楷：對啦！"],["邱主任委員垂正：當然，有一些資深陸配或是他們的二代，我們要提供許多的協助，讓他排除各種困難……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我們今天最重要的是要解決問題，政府存在的目的不是製造問題，是解決問題，所以我們要共同努力。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員啓楷：現在擔心的陸配跟他們的二代，我們今天很清楚跟他講，本來他們擔心什麼？你4月2號寄通知，要他們在三個月內完成除籍，對不對？時間快到了喔……"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，委員……"],["張委員啓楷：聽我講、聽我講。"],["邱主任委員垂正：只要跟我們聯繫就不用擔心有被除籍的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：再講一次，所以現在跟陸委會、跟移民署、跟海基會……"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟移民署、跟海基會聯繫上，就沒有問題，我們都會專人輔導，來解決他的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：好，所以不會有6月底或者7月初被除籍這個問題？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們都會全力協助。"],["張委員啓楷：好，所以他們只要去申請，你們就會給他一個通知，對不對？然後會有三個可能，來，看一下。第一個，你們同意讓他用切結的方式來取代，對不對？這是第一種，這是最理想的，就是說他真的沒辦法回大陸去，或者資料已經找不到了，你就同意他用切結的，這是最好的一個方式，對不對？第二種，雖然沒辦法用具結的，可是你會同意他展延，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，最壞的一種狀況，你不同意，中間不同意的話，你還是至少會給他三個月的展延時間，是不是這樣？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員啓楷：就是最右邊這一欄嘛。"],["邱主任委員垂正：最後面這一欄，真的就是窒礙難行，有特別的狀況，我們也會專案來協助他。"],["張委員啓楷：所以他只要找到你們，或者到我們辦公室，我們把案子轉過去，就可以爭取到時間？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["張委員啓楷：有這三個解決的方案。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員啓楷：當然，這是治標，治本還是要修法啦，所以民眾黨會提出修法，在93年之前的，我們會提修法來治本。另外，我問你一個最近比較新的，大陸現在有四個省分不發了，之前是浙江，對不對？現在山東、山西、安徽跟浙江，他們都不發了，這怎麼解決？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，您剛剛講的這些省分，拒絕提供陸配朋友回去放棄他的原籍證明，拒絕給他除籍文件，這個是極少數，這些都是個案，個案的部分我們就來協助溝通聯繫。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，主委，五個省分，大概不會是少數啦！不過，反正案子到你那邊，你一定要……"],["邱主任委員垂正：真的是個案，我們截至目前為止都滿順利的。"],["張委員啓楷：好，就用專案去幫忙，好不好？"],["邱主任委員垂正：好。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，因為時間拖太久了，不好意思，主席，我再2分鐘。主委，你先請回，好不好？"],["邱主任委員垂正：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：不好意思，謝謝！我再請中選會主委，因為這個問題滿嚴重的，我要請問一下。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：主委你好。這次2024年總統大選的時候，有出現一個屏東縣中正國小第146投開票所……我們看一下這個畫面，這個你應該都有看過錄影帶，對不對？他們就是在懷疑或者是質疑這個紙箱……紙箱不管你怎麼折，一定會有一個後面折起來的地方，對不對？會有一個夾層嘛，對不對？這個是拍到夾層有一些選票掉出來。我們來解決這個問題，好不好？現在有人提出，紙箱一定有折痕，你能不能做一個底部是透明壓克力板的？這樣是不是能夠解決問題？"],["李主任委員進勇：選務的相關設備、器具、應用物品有這樣的問題而引起社會的議論，甚至於恐慌，我覺得很不值，所以我很積極在進行研究，看怎麼樣能夠去除這樣的疑慮。當然委員所建議的，我們也會列入考慮，我們會積極的去研究如何能夠讓投票人完全有信心。"],["張委員啓楷：所以會納入，很有可能會這樣做，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：可能的方式，我們都不排除。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，中選會的公正性、專業性一定要被肯定，這個是你的重責大任，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是的、是的。"],["張委員啓楷：我再給你看一下，2024年開票的時候，你看這個開票，綠色的是賴清德的總統票和民進黨的政黨票，右邊藍色的是侯友宜的總統票和國民黨的政黨票，左邊是柯文哲的總統票和民眾黨的政黨票，你有沒有發現落差太大了！雲林的東明村、新北市的景南里，賴清德的總統票和民進黨的政黨票都很近，對不對？國民黨侯友宜的總統票和國民黨的政黨票也很近，可是你看雲林的東明村，柯文哲的總統票有154票，民眾黨的政黨票才開10票，新北市的景南里，總統票有277票，政黨票才開30票。我要繼續給你看，花蓮的仁里村也是這種狀況，柯文哲的總統票開202票，民眾黨的政黨票竟然只有1票，可是你看賴清德及侯友宜的總統票和政黨票都是一致的，右邊的桃園市菓林里也是這種狀況，你有沒有覺得這個落差太大了？"],["李主任委員進勇：對，我們發現有異常狀況的話，都會要求主任管理員要double check，一定要再重新做確認，而且這個確認有三道手續，有三道關卡的確認……"],["張委員啓楷：對，所以以後如果有這種狀況，應該在很快的時間內要再去清查一次，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：那當然，那當然。"],["張委員啓楷：好，我今天做個簡單的結論，我剛剛講，公正性、被信任非常重要，這應該是你的重責大任，所以剛剛講的那個紙箱的部分一定要趕快好好去討論，好不好？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我剛剛講那個底部用透明的壓克力板，這是非常多人提出來的……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們想辦法來克服……"],["張委員啓楷：好不好？"],["李主任委員進勇：想辦法來克服。"],["張委員啓楷：儘量往這個方向來走，好不好？"],["李主任委員進勇：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束；委員蘇巧慧所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報；書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。本次會議質詢時間循例並未減少，且能視個別委員的質詢需要，容許委員的答詢時間酌予延長，爰此，本次會議每位委員發言時間列入會議紀錄。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","高金素梅","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","黃捷","王鴻薇","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算解凍案；二、處理114年度中央政府\n總預算有關不當黨產處理委員會預算解凍案；三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關中央\n選舉委員會及所屬預算解凍案；四、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關大陸委員會預算解凍案；\n五、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關客家委員會及所屬預算解凍案","agenda_id":"1144901_00004"}}},{"id":"161213","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161213","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d522348a9667fd1f2f135f3e47612ac34e98c36c5eeff8411bae0b9b733f13866c75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:54:06 - 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主席 各位委員有請中選會主委好 請李主委要特別跟這個客家委員會的主委說明這個今天在場你坐著就好今天在場的在第八屆的立法委員之前就當立委的就是我們的這個海委會的主委他很清楚第八屆以前三的預算更多了"},{"start":41.84,"end":62.433,"text":"然後這一次之所以溝通就是沒有因為沒有溝通就是為了大罷免所以柯總召在整個草野協商的時候就是不協商嘛所以這個部分我們還是回歸到這個主委好"},{"start":72.654,"end":95.58,"text":"不再舉投票,這個我一再提了,印尼,印尼這個國家跟我們台灣的民主發展監禁各方面,印尼,他們都可以實施不再舉投票,而且不是只有在"},{"start":96.837,"end":123.356,"text":"印尼還包含海外在台灣在台灣都實施不在籍投票這個按照這個外交部提供的印尼從103年開始在台灣就有總統跟國會大選的不在籍投票108年"},{"start":124.864,"end":143.042,"text":"也舉行國會跟總統大賞也是在台灣就有在台灣的印尼的人民他就可以在台灣投票一直到去年113年2月14號都一樣照常舉行了"},{"start":150.711,"end":173.629,"text":"印尼福源很大跟台灣比起來差很多很多何況他們在國內就實施了到國外更是這樣實施原住民族要求的不多啦只是說這麼小的一個台灣這麼小的一個台灣"},{"start":177.677,"end":199.918,"text":"我們也希望能夠實施嚴重民主的不在己投票在過去的質詢 中選會的答覆在這個整個作業上 就選務工作上沒有什麼困難我們先不談海外了"},{"start":201.499,"end":226.894,"text":"原住民在海外的也很少啦就原住民族的因為我們很多的原鄉的鄉親戶籍在原鄉但是工作就業就學在都會期要回到台東要回到蘭嶼要回到屏東要回到花蓮"},{"start":228.919,"end":243.478,"text":"都非常遙遠所以這樣的一個實施不在己 原住民族實施不在己投票到底這個中選會是不是可以繼續支持來 主委"},{"start":245.976,"end":269.207,"text":"謝謝委員的指教那我也向委員要表達我內心對你的敬重因為我在這六年多以來大概委員對於原住民投票權的保障尤其是這個不在籍投票以及投票秘密各個環節委員都非常非常的關心"},{"start":270.347,"end":295.43,"text":"那我們其實對這個問題也是非常的重視就不在即投票的部分那台灣沒有辦法普遍的來做實施其實有它內在跟外在的諸多環境的這個影響包括在選務的部分當然我們應該要想辦法去克服但是有一些關節呢也真的是很難去突破"},{"start":296.491,"end":323.453,"text":"不過總而言之啦我在講任何理由都無助於委員對於我們這個問題對中選會的一些期待那這個問題現在已經提案了已經進入草野協商這個階段了我們希望草野協商的這個過程能夠順利如果草野能夠達成共識就原住民的投票"},{"start":324.774,"end":350.774,"text":"或者就原住民的特定的選舉採取特定的不再集投票的模式朝野之間有充分的共識經過立法的程序的話那中選會配合來辦理這絕對沒有問題主委謝謝你但是很重要的朝野要能夠共同的支持"},{"start":352.045,"end":375.864,"text":"就是說中選會就選務工作而演因為過去我質詢過你們都說選務工作不是問題就援助民主的部分而已而且你剛剛講特定的選舉這個部分希望中選會在朝夜協商的時候能夠給予支持以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":945,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時54分）主席，各位委員，有請中選會主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：要特別跟客家委員會的主委說明，你坐著就好，今天在場的，在第8屆立法委員之前就當立委的就是海委會主委，他很清楚第8屆以前刪的預算更多，然後這一次之所以……就是因為沒有溝通，就是為了大罷免，所以柯總召在整個朝野協商的時候就是不協商嘛！所以這個部分我們還是回歸到……"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra 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國會的監督 主要最應該的應該是監督錢有沒有合法的編列以及是不是能夠真正把事情做對 做出績效而不是開空白支票 認同的請舉手"},{"start":106.478,"end":134.777,"text":"所以委員都很支持我們所以在委員會只刪了1500萬我現在是請四位認同的請舉手我再講一遍就是我們的預算應該是要能夠把事情能夠做對而且做出績效我們各位身為行政官員你認同"},{"start":136.365,"end":148.795,"text":"人民的血汗錢這麼多的預算我們應該把事情做對 做出績效而且合法的編列 認同的請舉手我認同不 認同的請舉手"},{"start":150.661,"end":158.211,"text":"我認為這個是一個簡單的道理請委員是不是可以容許我們我現在就在問認同的請舉手這個好像小學生一樣也浪費了委員的時間主席麻煩你暫停時間我沒有要他們答覆他們在答覆我請他們舉手他們都不舉手"},{"start":169.747,"end":189.931,"text":"主委員 因為舉手這個動作 說實在的請委員原諒因為剛剛主委也說了 我們四個人在這裡都舉手現在這個時代就是影像出去的話 所以我們用口頭回答好不好認同的請點頭 可以吧原來你們是很在意舉手 那認同的請點頭我再問一個問題"},{"start":196.536,"end":204.144,"text":"您在座的四位主委以及您所率領的單位同仁你們都有認知到說我們的職責"},{"start":209.266,"end":228.131,"text":"就是為全民服務我們不是替某個政黨來出征不是替某個政黨服務我們領的是國家人民的納稅錢、薪水就是您主委以及您所率領的我們這些同仁大家有這份認知的請點頭"},{"start":230.965,"end":259.001,"text":"我們前幾天破貨的毒品當然是為全民我沒有請你回答認同的請舉手對不起 認同的請點頭好 謝謝所以我們希望我們的中央政府的官員我們是為全民服務很多事情把它做好我想我們所有的在野黨的立委"},{"start":259.847,"end":277.087,"text":"我們絕對不是如外面現在謠言惑眾所說的我們三預算凍結預算是要黨改革或是政府做對絕對沒有我們就是希望能夠讓政府能夠做到民眾期望的"},{"start":277.915,"end":298.407,"text":"那只要是當用則用那當省則省不要腐爛編列預算好現在我請三位主委回座請谷主委留這個好謝謝好許委員好好谷主委是本席想請教您我們客委會"},{"start":300.134,"end":318.055,"text":"在行政院還沒有核定前就已經把新一期的國家客家發展計畫編入了114年度的預算請問這個有沒有違反預算法第39條第一項明定的預算之編制應依據法定計畫"},{"start":320.158,"end":331.976,"text":"應該這麼說我們國家客家發展計畫因為第一期到112年那113年空窗了所以我們在因為113年所以你們是不是應該要行政院要核定嘛"},{"start":333.322,"end":348.211,"text":"到現在都還沒核定 現在已經在會各部會的意見當中到目前都還沒有核定你們就已經把整個沒有這樣的一個依據計劃內容你們就已經預算編進去但我們針對中長城的計劃編列預算這個是合乎規定的"},{"start":357.156,"end":379.855,"text":"可是現在國家客家發展計畫沒有你到現在沒有提出來那今天的解凍案已經提出來了已經提到行政院我所謂提出來對不起我講的是我們今天的解凍案今天解凍案當初是說我們要提出"},{"start":381.277,"end":409.004,"text":"解凍書面報告以及新一期的國家客家發展計畫那你這個計畫行政院沒有核定你就提出來那你當初提給行政院的時候行政院也還有意見你們現在應該在修改吧跟委員報告國家客家發展計畫並沒有在這所有的書面或專題報告專案報告裡頭當中所以每一個案子我們都提過來了"},{"start":411.195,"end":438.453,"text":"今天沒有這個案嗎應該沒有啊應該沒有吧那我們看到那個內容裡面那個是委員應該是有一位委員提到一直提到我們113年度沒有國家客家發展計畫那是114年到117年這樣那本席特別的在這裡等一下我要請那個另一位單位上來我在最後"},{"start":440.815,"end":453.47,"text":"針對那個谷主委我想即便是蔡英文總統執政的八年我們看到柯委會的預算還是總預算柯委會的預算還是有被刪減"},{"start":454.651,"end":475.412,"text":"即便我們李永德主委 柯委會主委 他的夫人就是我們的邱委員在民進黨蔡英文八年的完全執政下 還是有刪減預算所以不要再拿說 有客家人刪減客家預算來做文章"},{"start":478.224,"end":499.642,"text":"這個立法委員監督不管刪減或凍結一定是有憑有據不合法的或是服邊的該刪的要刪但是凍結的部分來自於我們的審查的空間時間不夠不夠完備所以呢我們有這個凍結的機制也就是說我們行政單位提出凍結報告"},{"start":501.323,"end":527.804,"text":"解凍報告那讓我們委員們覺得這個是合乎這個規定的而且也看到了行政單位的這個成效我們是可以解凍的所以我想主委您應該也了解那在這個客委會我想我時間的關係好謝謝主委最後我們可不可以請那個主計總處今天有沒有來"},{"start":530.615,"end":532.358,"text":"好請主席總署不好意思主委還是請你對因為接下來也還是這個委員好"},{"start":546.377,"end":572.375,"text":"我想請教主計總署這個剛剛本席質詢的我們國家客家發展計畫這個預算的編列如果計畫沒有核定前就先編列預算請問主計總署有沒有認定違法因為我們114年的預算已經審完了但是在提出預算前他這個行政院沒有編沒有沒有核定"},{"start":576.853,"end":593.358,"text":"我們這邊編列的計劃是指中長城個案計劃那計劃經過行政院核定之後我們就會那邊預算對但是在預算提出來之前還沒核定嗎這邊講的委員這邊講的應該是客家的特別"},{"start":598.212,"end":605.497,"text":"一個整體大的方向的一個規劃案並不是涉及個案的計畫不是涉及個案所以我本席問的就是新一期的國家客家發展計畫沒有核定可是它依據它卻已經編出預算了"},{"start":624.741,"end":648.797,"text":"好 沒關係所以這一塊足跡總署我現在主要問你嘛如果計劃沒有核定前先編預算是不是有認定違法目前客委會的這些預算都有這些計劃都有經過行政院的核定中長城個案計劃的部分都有經過我們的如果是屬於工建或者是一些科技計劃都有經過審議程序納入預算"},{"start":652.139,"end":675.109,"text":"但是我們看到的是沒有所以這個部分我們等一下請主委講那個我跟委員說明齁其實國家客家發展計劃它是一個綱要型的計劃它不涉及這個預算的編列預算編列是在中長程計劃的個案型計劃那個是已經有通過通過我們才可以編預算所以你們有計劃內容依據就對了當然有"},{"start":676.69,"end":706.121,"text":"那沒關係等一下我們看你們那個回應的這個內容因為我們在你們的報告中有特別提到好那所以那個有要補充嗎 主席總署有關於那個客委會的這一支計劃那是不是稍後請客委會補充行政院核定的函號那就是有確定說是經過行政院核定的所以你們這一塊也有把關是"},{"start":711.089,"end":719.876,"text":"最後本席想特別就主席總書的請回主委我想我們客家"},{"start":720.953,"end":740.544,"text":"的語言跟文化的傳承預算的經費當然很重要但是我們能夠做出績效讓我們客家的文化語言能夠真正的傳承才是最重要的現在很多人都覺得整個的傳承是崩壞的所以我們希望您再努力好不好"},{"start":742.086,"end":755.647,"text":"一定是這樣子那也要特別請委員特別是我們的委員在客家莊或者是客籍的委員來協助這個預算的支持我們一定支持而且我在這邊最後感謝主席我最後講"},{"start":757.299,"end":776.656,"text":"我們柯爾會在網頁上在FB上面所寫的我要在這邊特別說我們在委員會的時候本席當召委主持一毛沒三您認同吧我也跟委員說不是吧你認同嗎你回答我問題然後接著我知道你要講的是院會二讀三讀所以我在這裡我要講的"},{"start":777.716,"end":802.589,"text":"這完全沒有討論過 那我們也承諾不及沒有辦法說明 那也要請這個時候客氣的不是欸 主席我沒有問 我問的你答完你可以讓我講嗎是然後進入二讀跟三讀 進入二讀跟三讀的時候其實黨團提出來的時候 主委你沒看到這個我之前也有跟委員不是我可不可以講啊"},{"start":805.086,"end":832.381,"text":"黨團在二讀跟三讀的時候每個黨團都內部有在討論你沒看到的是我們課級的委員怎麼樣的在為課委會的預算護航所以我要講的就是說如果我們不是吉利那您要做出績效而且這這麼多委員在進入到院會甚至二讀三讀黨團的時候有各個政黨的委員還有個別的委員"},{"start":833.081,"end":852.803,"text":"所以我要講的是我們在黨團協商的時候我們自己黨團內部我們幫客委會擋掉了非常多雖然到後面你們也許還有你的意見但是你要想一想你的績效你很多績效被我們質詢被我們講沒做好你應該想辦法做好你做好"},{"start":853.624,"end":878.473,"text":"我相信其他委員支持我們客級的委員我們全力的支持所以我想我們在黨團提出來的時候也很多單位他都有來溝通那我因為我個人沒有在黨團的時候提出來我不知道你們有沒有溝通我不知道你們有沒有溝通所以我在這裡我要在最後再強調在黨團提案的時候"},{"start":879.073,"end":896.341,"text":"我看到的我能幫我們客委會的我們都盡量我們擋掉了非常多所以我現在跟你講嘛你蔡英文執政的時候你蔡英文執政的八年你的委員你民進黨"},{"start":898.062,"end":912.209,"text":"執政黨的委員70幾席一樣刪除會委會預算我們可以給大家看蔡英文執政的8年所以那個沒什麼好講的因為所有委員都監督所以你們應該要去跟行政單位多溝通"},{"start":919.853,"end":932.682,"text":"那我表達就是說我一個人但是在野黨有六十幾位所以你們要多去溝通我們已經幫客委會計量了黨但是你的表現你客委會展現出來的績效還有你對預算你有沒有扶邊讓邊被人家質疑針對特定單位你的這個經費還有重複編列"},{"start":945.871,"end":964.364,"text":"你的合理性必要性你沒有說服委員你的營運收入你一直年年應該提升你卻沒有提升所以我想有很多可以再加強你做得好我們大家全力支持好謝謝主委也謝謝主席好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":837,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時38分）謝謝主席，本席有請海委會管主委、中選會李主委、陸委會邱主委，還有客委會古主委。"],["主席：請4位主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：4位主委，本席想請教4位，我們中央政府的預算是人民的血汗錢，不是執政黨的提款卡，認同的請舉手。"],["管主任委員碧玲：這是事實，委員，我們絕對都把錢花在刀口上。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，我沒有請你們，等一下會有時間。所以李主委不認同？針對是否認同我們中央政府的預算是人民的血汗錢，不是執政黨的提款卡，你沒舉手，表示不認同？"],["李主任委員進勇：不是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，沒舉手，沒關係。對於整個預算，國會的監督主要應該是監督錢有沒有合法地編列，以及是不是能夠真正把事情做對、做出績效，而不是開空白支票，認同的請舉手。"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以委員在委員會都很支持我們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我現在沒有要你們答復。主席，請幫我暫停時間。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員都很支持我們，所以在委員會只刪了1,500萬。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，我不是問管主委，我現在是請問4位，認同的請舉手。我再講一遍，就是我們的預算應該是要能夠把事情做對而且做出績效，各位身為行政官員，你認同人民的血汗錢、這麼多的預算，我們應該把事情做對、做出績效，而且合法地編列，認同的請舉手。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我認同。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，認同的請舉手。"],["李主任委員進勇：我認為這個是一個簡單的道理……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有、沒有，主席。"],["李主任委員進勇：請委員是不是可以容許我們不必每一個事情要舉手……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我現在就在問認同的請舉手。"],["李主任委員進勇：這個好像小學生一樣，也浪費了委員的時間，好不好？謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主席，麻煩你暫停時間，我沒有要他們答復，他們在答復，我請他們舉手，他們都不舉手。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，委員，因為舉手這個動作，說實在的，請委員原諒，因為剛剛主委也說了，我們4個人在這裡都舉手……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK，認同的請點頭好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：現在這個時代就是影像出去的話，所以我們用口頭回答好不好？謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：認同的請點頭可以吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：好，沒問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK，對，原來你們是很在意舉手，那認同的請點頭。好，那我再問一個問題，在座的4位主委，以及您所率領的單位同仁，你們都有認知到說我們的職責就是為全民服務，不是替某個政黨來出征、不是替某個政黨服務，我們領的是國家、人民的納稅錢、薪水，就是您、主委，以及您所率領的這些同仁，大家有這份認知的，請點頭。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們前幾天破獲的毒品，當然是為全民。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不，主席，他又浪費我時間，我沒有請你回答喔！認同的請舉手，對不起，認同的請點頭，好，謝謝。所以我們希望中央政府的官員，我們是為全民服務，很多事情把它做好，我想我們所有在野黨的立委，我們絕對不是如外面現在妖言惑眾所說的，我們刪預算、凍結預算是要擋改革或是跟政府作對，絕對沒有，我們就是希望讓政府能夠做到民眾期望的，當用則用、當審則審，不要浮濫編列預算。好，現在我請3位主委回座，請古主委留，謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：好，徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：古主委，本席想請教您，我們客委會在行政院還沒有核定前，就已經把新一期的國家客家發展計畫編入了114年度的預算，請問這個有沒有違反預算法第三十九條第一項明定的，預算之編製應依據法定計畫？"],["古主任委員秀妃：應該這麼說，我們國家客家發展計畫，因為第一期到112年，那113年空窗了，因為113年……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們是不是應該要……"],["古主任委員秀妃：我們在113年就趕快……"],["徐委員欣瑩：行政院核定嘛？"],["古主任委員秀妃：對，要行政院核定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：到現在都還沒核定，就本席了解。"],["古主任委員秀妃：現在已經在會各部會的意見當中。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以到目前都還沒有核定，你們就已經把整個……沒有依據、計畫內容，你們就已經把預算編進去了。"],["古主任委員秀妃：但我們針對中長程的計畫編列預算，這個是合乎規定的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：可是現在……"],["古主任委員秀妃：每一支計畫都……"],["徐委員欣瑩：國家客家發展計畫，沒有，你到現在沒有提出來。"],["古主任委員秀妃：已經提出來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：今天的解凍案……"],["古主任委員秀妃：已經提出來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK、OK，沒關係。"],["古主任委員秀妃：已經提出來了，已經提出來了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你行政院……"],["古主任委員秀妃：已經提到行政院、已經提到行政院。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對對對，我所謂提出來……對不起，我講的是我們今天的解凍案，今天解凍案當初是說要提出書面報告以及新一期的國家客家發展計畫，那你這個計畫行政院沒有核定，你就提出來，你當初提給行政院的時候，行政院也還有意見，你們現在應該在修改吧？"],["古主任委員秀妃：跟委員報告，國家客家發展計畫並沒有在這所有的書面或專題報告、專案報告當中，所以每一個案子我們都提過來了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：今天沒有這個案嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：應該沒有，應該沒有吧！"],["徐委員欣瑩：那我們看到那個內容裡面……"],["古主任委員秀妃：那個應該是有一位委員一直提到我們113年度沒有國家客家發展計畫，是114年到117年這樣。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，本席特別在這裡，等一下我要請另一位單位上來，我在最後針對古主委，我想即便是蔡英文總統執政的8年，我們看到客委會的預算還是有被刪減，即便客委會的李永得主委，他的夫人就是我們的邱委員，在民進黨蔡英文8年的完全執政下還是有刪減預算，所以不要再拿客家人刪減客家預算來做文章，因為立法委員監督，不管刪減或凍結，一定是有憑有據，不合法的或是浮編的，該刪的要刪，但是凍結的部分來自於我們審查的空間、時間不夠，不夠完備，所以我們有凍結的機制，也就是說行政單位提出解凍報告讓我們委員們覺得是合乎規定的，而且也看到了行政單位的成效，我們是可以解凍的，所以我想主委，你應該也了解，在客委會……我想我時間的關係，謝謝，謝謝主委。最後，我們可不可以請主計總處？今天有沒有來？"],["主席：好，請主計總處。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不好意思，主委還是請你留步，對，因為接下來也還是這個。"],["李專門委員翊柔：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我想請教主計總處，剛剛本席質詢的，國家客家發展計畫這個預算的編列，如果計畫沒有核定前就先編列預算，請問主計總處有沒有認定違法？因為我們114年的預算已經審完了，但是在提出預算前，行政院沒有核定。"],["李專門委員翊柔：我們這邊編列的計畫是指中長程個案計畫，計畫經過行政院核定之後，我們就會納編預算。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，但是在預算提出來之前，還沒核定嘛！"],["李專門委員翊柔：委員這邊講的應該是客家的一個整體大的方向的規劃案，並不是涉及個案的計畫。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是涉及個案，所以，本席問的就是新一期的國家客家發展計畫沒有核定，可是它卻已經編出預算，好，沒關係，所以這一塊主計總處，我現在主要問你嘛，如果計畫沒有核定前，先編預算是不是有認定違法？"],["李專門委員翊柔：目前客委會的這些計畫都有經過行政院的核定，中長程個案計畫的部分都有經過我們的……如果是屬於公建或者是一些科技計畫，都有經過審議程序納入預算。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是我們看到的是沒有，所以這個部分……好，請主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：我跟委員說明，其實國家客家發展計畫是一個綱要型的計畫，不涉及預算的編列，預算編列是在中長程計畫的個案型計畫，那個已經有通過，通過我們才可以編預算。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們有計畫內容依據就對了？"],["古主任委員秀妃：當然有，不然我們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那沒關係，等一下我們看你們回應的內容，因為我們在你們的報告中有特別提到，所以有要補充嗎？主計總處。"],["李專門委員翊柔：有關於客委會的這一支計畫，是不是稍後請客委會補充行政院核定的函號，就是有確定說是經過行政院核定的？"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們這一塊也有把關？"],["李專門委員翊柔：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK。最後，本席想特別就……主計總處請回。主委，我想我們客家的語言跟文化的傳承，預算的經費當然很重要，但是我們能夠做出績效，讓我們客家的文化、語言能夠真正地傳承才是最重要的，現在很多人都覺得整個傳承是崩壞的，所以我們希望您再努力好不好？"],["古主任委員秀妃：一定是這樣子，也要特別請委員，特別是我們的委員在客家庄，或者是客籍的委員來協助這個預算的支持。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，我們一定支持，而且我在這邊最後……感謝主席，我最後要講的，客委會在網頁上、在FB上面所寫的，我要在這邊特別說，在委員會的時候，本席當召委主持一毛沒刪，您認同吧？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我也跟委員說明……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，你認同嗎？你回答我的問題。"],["古主任委員秀妃：是。但是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：然後接著我知道你要講的是院會二讀、三讀。"],["古主任委員秀妃：是，這個完全沒有討論。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以在這裡我要講……"],["古主任委員秀妃：這個完全沒有討論過，那我們也錯愕不及，沒有辦法說明，那也要請……這個時候客籍的委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，主委，我沒有問。我問的，你答完，你可以讓我講嗎？"],["古主任委員秀妃：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：然後進入二讀跟三讀的時候，其實黨團提出來的時候，主委，你沒看到……"],["古主任委員秀妃：這個我之前也有跟委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，我可不可以講？"],["古主任委員秀妃：這是委員的時間。"],["徐委員欣瑩：黨團在二讀跟三讀的時候，每個黨團內部都有在討論，你沒看到的是我們客籍委員怎麼樣在為客委會的預算護航。"],["古主任委員秀妃：但最後的結果出來還是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以我要講的就是說，如果我們不是極力……但您要做出績效，而且這麼多委員……進入到院會，甚至二讀、三讀，黨團的時候，有各個政黨的委員，還有個別的委員，所以我要講的是，在黨團協商的時候，我們自己黨團內部，我們幫客委會擋掉了非常多，雖然到後面你們也許還有你的意見，但是你要想一想你的績效，你很多績效被我們質詢、被我們講沒做好，你應該想辦法做好，你做好，我相信其他委員支持，我們客籍的委員全力的支持，所以我想我們在黨團提出來的時候，很多單位也都有來溝通，因為我個人沒有在黨團的時候提出來，我不知道你們有沒有溝通，所以我在這裡最後要再強調，在黨團提案的時候我看到的、能幫客委會的，我們都儘量，我們擋掉了非常多。"],["古主任委員秀妃：但委員後來還是舉手表決刪除客委會的預算。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我現在跟你講嘛！蔡英文執政的時候，蔡英文執政的八年，民進黨執政黨的委員……"],["古主任委員秀妃：刪除預算、監督是委員的責任。"],["徐委員欣瑩：七十幾席一樣刪除客委會預算，我們可以給大家看，蔡英文執政的八年，所以那個沒什麼好講的……"],["古主任委員秀妃：是，這個都是……委員監督是必要的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為所有委員都監督……"],["古主任委員秀妃：但是我們希望可以合理的溝通，讓我們說明，但都沒有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們應該要去跟行政單位多溝通，那我要表達的就是說，我一個人但是在野黨有六十幾位，所以你們要多去溝通……"],["古主任委員秀妃：是，我也跟委員拜託過，請委員發揮力量……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們已經幫客委會儘量擋，但是你的表現、客委會展現出來的績效，還有你對預算有沒有浮編、濫編，被人家質疑針對特定單位的經費，還有重複編列，你的合理性、必要性，你沒有說服委員。"],["古主任委員秀妃：委員，我們在桃竹苗的預算投資是最大的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你的營運收入年年應該提升卻沒有提升，所以我想有很多可以再加強，你做得好，我們大家全力支持。好，謝謝，謝謝主委，也謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。我們請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","高金素梅","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","黃捷","王鴻薇","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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你要不要去讀一下你去讀一下海巡署的組織法所以我要講的是組織法整理的時候海巡的同仁會質疑說今天海巡的工作的本務是什麼這點非常重要 這點非常重要"},{"start":259.884,"end":267.952,"text":"政府的機關之間本來就有個人的職職所以國鄉請教一下主委同樣的我們不是在做思想檢查在4100億因為我時間有限趕快問一下比較重要的"},{"start":279.183,"end":300.811,"text":"4100億的特別條例因為有1500億是國土安全韌性那這裡面因為其實提到立法院的這部分的敘述非常的有限那裡面就是有提到有關於海巡的設施所以我要講的就是說其實我們要很界定是第一個我們海巡的業務是什麼"},{"start":302.392,"end":306.854,"text":"那海巡他現在所缺少的是什麼在預算要補強的是什麼所以你這4100億1500億因為我剛講說加強國土安全韌性不能說六個字要1500億嘛對不對所以我們大約需要300億我給你一點時間好嗎就是說因為我們所看到在立法院送過來立法院的1500億的內容實在是太少了"},{"start":331.283,"end":345.077,"text":"所以針對海巡的部分可不可以請主委或者署長來告訴我們這1500億請問要你海巡佔多少錢我們不曉得佔多少錢然後你到底要花在哪裡"},{"start":346.614,"end":362.887,"text":"到目前為止可不可以來做一些說明跟委員報告我剛剛有說明這是一個跨時代的海巡轉型的一個非常重要的機會好多少錢是我們大約目前還沒有完全核定因為條件都已經送到立法院來了"},{"start":363.827,"end":378.634,"text":"條例也還沒有過條例過了以後的預算才會合理但是因為我們目前我們需要的其實更多但是至少可以給我們300億所以海巡的部分海巡的部分300億是吧1500億裡面海巡300億是這樣嗎 確定嗎"},{"start":383.837,"end":412.255,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們海巡可以爭取到的大約就是300億的規模那跟委員報告這個對我們來講是非常非常重要好 300億要花在哪裡因為我們不要占用大家時間300億要花在那個我第一次聽到1500億裡面委員包括您關心的就像這個大餅的包括您所關心您都曾經來文希望知道我們的熱險象儀要部署在哪裡的時候那跟委員報告熱險象儀有或沒有對於海巡是一個劃時代"},{"start":413.575,"end":418.92,"text":"因為我們需要24小時都有監證能力那為什麼在今年度的預算裡面沒有放進來啊為什麼今年度預算沒有放進來啊這麼重要我們在去年的時候去年的時候發生的事情去年的時候質詢但是為什麼今年的預算沒有編進來"},{"start":433.971,"end":439.715,"text":"你還不放進來?你300億要花在哪裏?我們都在爭取預算我們都講不出來時間那麼久了起碼3分鐘過去你講不出來除了300億講不出來你到底要花"},{"start":454.586,"end":475.617,"text":"沒有講不出來 我已經說了海空一體跟24小時的精銳海巡 光是這幾個字你這個都是形容詞嘛就像國土安全認証 你不能用一個國土安全認証告訴我1500億 國土安全認証很重要 我都知道但是你要花願意在條例裡面給我們"},{"start":476.437,"end":479.339,"text":"我們絕對會讓委員相信這是我們絕對需要的海巡絕對需要的委員制我今天是真的做球給你讓你告訴我們海巡要爭取多少錢要花在哪裡講半天你跟我講一些形容詞非常可惜"},{"start":495.168,"end":504.133,"text":"真的很可惜沒有把握機會收到立法院這麼久到現在為止連這個精確具體的項目都講不出來我不曉得你們這個預算到底是怎麼編的啦我今天真的做重給你可惜了好不好或者是你可以書面的提供給我們好各位謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":745,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時29分）謝謝主席，我請海委會主委及海巡署署長。"],["主席：請管主委及署長。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委及署長，前兩天在網路社群平臺有一個爆料海巡2.0的貼文，他說海巡署要求同仁協助在臉書上找假帳號，這裡面是說長期在個人臉書發布對臺政治、攻擊執政黨及提倡兩岸統一的言論，疑似為境外異常帳號操作認知作戰，可能到各大一直有在批評執政黨或是臺灣政治的粉絲專頁尋找，而且要把這個資訊貼到群組，所以這個爆料者就質疑海巡工作的本務是什麼，難道海巡還要巡到網路上的事嗎？認為好像已經完全逾越了原來海巡署同仁應有的職務。後來我也看到海巡署有發布新聞稿，這個新聞稿其實也沒有完全地否認，裡面就提到如果有疑似中共操縱的異常帳號，要海巡署或者權責機關即時更正，以安定民心士氣。所以我想請教一下主委及署長，依照海巡署組織法，海巡署同仁的業務包含要去巡網路嗎？包含要針對認知作戰蒐集相關的資訊嗎？這個部分是不是已經逾越海巡署執掌的業務範圍？我們是一個法治的國家，所以我想請問一下主委或署長，針對這個事情，到底你們要讓海巡署的同仁做些什麼業務，難道他們突然要變身國安局或者警政署嗎？這些事情不應該是警政署及國安局的職務嗎？主委或署長能不能說明一下，到底你們的要求是什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。委員剛剛有講到一個重點就是認知作戰，我從舉例先開始，從114年聯合演訓及海峽雷霆─2025A這個時候就出現了一個假新聞，這是認知作戰，就是我們的媒體甚至於報導網路上面在流傳LNG船因為中國的軍演而無法進港，這是假消息，我們海巡很重要，在軍演的時候……"],["王委員鴻薇：這個假訊息……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，我們軍演的時候要反制認知作戰……"],["王委員鴻薇：對於假訊息，是不是應該由國安局或者警政署……"],["管主任委員碧玲：軍演沒有……軍演的應對是我們海巡署的任務……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我的意思是，今天對海巡來說……"],["管主任委員碧玲：軍演的時候，認知作戰非常嚴重……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們要不要去澄清假訊息……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們需要……"],["王委員鴻薇：要不要打擊假訊息很重要……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個就是在打擊認知作戰……"],["王委員鴻薇：但是今天海巡署……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，您說到重點了，我們非常重要，要做好這件事。"],["王委員鴻薇：如果我們在講海巡署未來是第二海軍，我不曉得海巡署還要變成網軍嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：錯了，委員，這個跟我們都完全無關……"],["王委員鴻薇：他們的工作還要變成網軍？所以我的意思是說……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，錯了，我們沒有網軍，海巡沒有網軍，但是海巡在因應、反制中共灰色地帶襲擾的認知作戰上面，我們是第一線重要的部隊，我們一定要做！軍演的時候，這個訊息就是我們副署長在記者會的時候非常有力量地去澄清，這就是我們的責任。"],["王委員鴻薇：那我請問一下主委，主委，你要不要去讀一下海巡署的組織法？這個職務職掌是哪一個……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的組織法制定的時候沒有灰色襲擾……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我要講的是……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，組織法制定的時候還沒有灰色襲擾的戰略……"],["王委員鴻薇：我要講的是，為什麼海巡的同仁會質疑今天海巡的工作本務是什麼？這點非常重要。政府的機關之間本來就有各司其職……"],["管主任委員碧玲：不過委員，誰來做確實在內部我們要分工好，但是這個絕對是海巡的任務……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我想請教一下主委，同樣地……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們不是在做思想警察檢查，絕對沒有！"],["王委員鴻薇：同樣地，在4,100億……因為我時間有限，我趕快問一下比較重要的。在4,100億特別條例裡面有1,500億是用於國土安全韌性，其實送到立法院有關這部分的敘述非常地有限，裡面有提到有關於海巡的設施，我要講的是，其實我們要很界定在：第一個，我們海巡的業務是什麼？海巡現在所缺少的是什麼？在預算要補充的什麼？這4,100億裡面的1,500億，我剛剛講是用於「加強國土韌性」，不能說用6個字就要1,500億，對不對？所以在海巡設施……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們大約需要300億。"],["王委員鴻薇：我給您一點時間，好嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我們所看到送過來立法院的1,500億預算內容實在是太少了，所以針對海巡的部分，可不可以請主委或署長告訴我們這1,500億當中海巡占多少錢？你們到底要花在哪裡？可不可以做一些說明？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我剛剛有說明，這是一個劃時代的海巡轉型非常重要的經費……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，多少錢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前還沒有完全核定，因為條例也還沒有過……"],["王委員鴻薇：都已經送到立法院來了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：條例也還沒有過，條例過了以後，預算才會核定……"],["王委員鴻薇：不是，你送到立法院，要讓我們知道你要花在哪裡啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是以目前而言，我們需要的其實更多，但是至少可以給我們300億，跟委員報告……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以海巡的部分300億，是嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們大約需要300億……"],["王委員鴻薇：1,500億裡面，海巡300億，是這樣嗎？確定嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，目前我們海巡可以爭取到的大約就是300億的規模，這個對我們來講是非常非常重要的，因為……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，300億要用在哪裡？"],["管主任委員碧玲：第一個……"],["王委員鴻薇：我也不要占用大家的時間。300億要花在哪裡？"],["管主任委員碧玲：第一個，委員……"],["王委員鴻薇：我第一次聽到1,500億裡面怎麼樣分配，就像一個大餅……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，包括您關心的，包括您都曾經來文希望知道我們的熱顯像儀要部署在哪裡的時候，跟委員報告，熱顯像儀有或沒有對於海巡是一個劃時代的轉型。"],["王委員鴻薇：是，沒錯。"],["管主任委員碧玲：因為我們需要24小時都有監偵的能力……"],["王委員鴻薇：那為什麼在今年度的預算裡面沒有放進來？為什麼今年度預算沒有放進來？這麼重要……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，我們造艦的計畫都數百億，重點在我們要的非常地多……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們在去年的時候發生的事情，去年的時候質詢，但是為什麼今年的預算沒有編進來……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們增加53億就挨罵到現在了……"],["王委員鴻薇：又要編這個特別條例，你還不放進來……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，我們今年度的預算增加53億就被大院好多委員罵到臭頭……"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有關係，你300億要花在哪裡？300億要花在哪裡？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們不斷地在爭取預算……"],["王委員鴻薇：花在哪裡？都講不出來！時間那麼久了！"],["管主任委員碧玲：海空一體，不會講不出來，海空一體……"],["王委員鴻薇：起碼3分鐘過去，你講不出來，除了300億……"],["管主任委員碧玲：海空一體，24小時精銳海巡……"],["王委員鴻薇：講不出來你到底要花在哪裡，是不是？"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有講不出來，您不願意聽而已，委員……"],["王委員鴻薇：你講啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有講不出來，我已經說了……"],["王委員鴻薇：你講啊！"],["管主任委員碧玲：海空一體跟24小時的精銳海巡，光是這幾個字……"],["王委員鴻薇：你這個都是形容詞嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：這絕對不是形容詞！海空一體需要的是什麼？"],["王委員鴻薇：就像國土安全韌性，你不能用一個「國土安全韌性」告訴我1,500億，國土安全韌性很重要，我都知道，但是你要花在哪裡？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，只要您願意在條例裡面給我們，我絕對會讓委員相信這是我們絕對需要的，海巡絕對需要這筆經費……"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得很可惜，其實主委，我今天是做球給你……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我今天其實是做球給你，讓你告訴我們海巡要爭取多少錢、要花在哪裡……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我說了。"],["王委員鴻薇：講半天，你跟我講一些形容詞……"],["管主任委員碧玲：海空一體需要的當然是無人機……"],["王委員鴻薇：非常可惜啦！真的很可惜，你沒有把握機會……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，絕對沒有，24小時我們需要的……"],["王委員鴻薇：送到立法院這麼久，到現在為止連精確具體的項目都講不出來……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，你就是不願意聽啊！委員就是不願意聽啊！"],["王委員鴻薇：我不曉得你們這個預算到底是怎麼編的，我今天真的做球給你，可惜了，好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，我說得很清楚了，而且我都已經舉例了……"],["王委員鴻薇：或者是你可以把書面提供給我們、還有各委員。謝謝。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，我可以把書面給委員，沒有問題。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","何欣純、何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","高金素梅","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","黃捷","王鴻薇","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算解凍案；二、處理114年度中央政府\n總預算有關不當黨產處理委員會預算解凍案；三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關中央\n選舉委員會及所屬預算解凍案；四、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關大陸委員會預算解凍案；\n五、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關客家委員會及所屬預算解凍案","agenda_id":"1144901_00004"}}},{"id":"161210","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161210","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d52fb8d76baf20449fa35f3e47612ac34e98c36c5eeff8411ba73ed662baa63b46f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"11:20:03 - 11:28:44","影片長度":"00:08:41","會議時間":"2025-05-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算解凍案。二、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關不當黨產處理委員會預算解凍案。三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關中央選舉委員會及所屬預算解凍案。四、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關大陸委員會預算解凍案。五、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關客家委員會及所屬預算解凍案。\n\n【5月12日（星期一）、14日（星期三）、15日（星期四）三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-12","start_time":"2025-05-12T11:20:03+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-12T11:28:44+08:00","duration":521,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.80284375,"end":4.806593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.51846875,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.695343750000003,"end":16.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.37784375,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.67409375,"end":70.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.00721875,"end":74.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.78721875000001,"end":77.68971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.01034375,"end":79.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.83284375000001,"end":80.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.28409375000001,"end":84.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.10221875,"end":88.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.87784375000001,"end":96.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.23534375000001,"end":96.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.43346875,"end":98.17596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.31096875,"end":99.47534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.16721875,"end":101.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.09534375000001,"end":113.93721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.35909375000001,"end":129.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.78284375,"end":136.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.00221875,"end":130.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.67221875,"end":212.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.31409375,"end":249.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.78096875000003,"end":282.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.41721875,"end":288.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.28534375000004,"end":294.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.37721875,"end":296.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.47409375,"end":299.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.35971875,"end":299.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.54534375000003,"end":304.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.55721875,"end":305.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.32909375,"end":311.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.17221875,"end":319.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.06534375,"end":331.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.11846875000003,"end":331.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.25346875,"end":335.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.30409375000005,"end":331.40534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.24034375,"end":334.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.30346875000004,"end":366.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.56846875,"end":380.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.38909375000003,"end":395.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.03659375,"end":402.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.29721875,"end":416.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.40471875000003,"end":416.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.07971875000004,"end":418.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.41721875,"end":421.16346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.16346875000005,"end":421.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.31534375,"end":455.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.24159375000005,"end":434.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.42659375000005,"end":438.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.44346875,"end":439.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.94034375,"end":445.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.44159375000004,"end":450.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.82909375,"end":458.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.38971875000004,"end":459.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.76096875,"end":461.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.65096875,"end":491.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.26221875000005,"end":498.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.79721875,"end":497.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.90659375,"end":503.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.71596875000006,"end":507.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.01534375000006,"end":507.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.98534375,"end":517.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01",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謝謝主席 我們請陸委會邱主委王委員好可以放到最大嗎"},{"start":21.394,"end":45.321,"text":"好 謝謝主委我這邊要跟你請教一個案子喔因為其實最近我收到非常多有一個泰國的明星就是Leom他們的見面會的相關的陳情案那裡面其實跟這個中資有非常大的關係那是講到說這個粉絲的購票權益一直都有爭議那時候其實我也有馬上請陸委會幫我們協助調查就是這一個"},{"start":47.141,"end":68.271,"text":"辦這個粉絲見面會的主辦單位超旗娛樂到底是不是背後有中資然後有沒有違反港澳條例那甚至是超旗的這個負責人背後也是他是共青團的成員那是不是他也有這個統戰的背景那那時候不知道我們給陸委會調查之後是不是已經啟動調查了呢公委員報告不管是兩岸條例或是港澳條例"},{"start":74.984,"end":95.464,"text":"這些到台灣來如果說你沒有辦理登記或是成立分公司辦事處你就不能來從事銀商的活動所以他如果因為我們經常他還是一個非法的公司"},{"start":97.469,"end":113.439,"text":"我們就如果說他是違法在台灣經營這些經商的活動是屬於非法活動那我們現在也請我們檢調單位密註這個事情看他有沒有從事這些非法活動"},{"start":114.44,"end":127.327,"text":"那我們了解他辦理這個活動目前有關場地的活動或者是售票的活動都是請我們台灣的公司來承辦但是我們還在看主辦方是誰對"},{"start":130.549,"end":150.779,"text":"他如果掛名掛上去的話就涉及違法那我們一定依法查辦 嚴格查辦好 謝謝 謝謝主委的說明現在的關鍵就是 幫我下一頁他們的主辦單位直接掛超級娛樂但是超級娛樂很明顯他是一個澳門的公司然後母公司在中國那這件事情到底有沒有違法就是我希望陸委會可以協助調查的"},{"start":151.92,"end":169.885,"text":"那再來我要請教一下因為現在其實我們台灣很多追星人他們因為參加這樣的活動他們不希望說在追星的時候必須得跪著追星那這就是我希望我們在台灣的政府單位可以讓追星人可以放心的地方我這邊講幾個重點先幫我回到第一頁這個實名制的問題這個對"},{"start":175.306,"end":192.289,"text":"這就是因為現在他們很多說因為不知道這個主辦單位到底有沒有疑慮導致說粉絲在買票的時候也會有疑慮說即便如果這個主辦單位真的是中國的公司那他用實名制會不會導致自己的個資被洩漏那這個是現在民眾很擔心的下一頁"},{"start":193.07,"end":212.36,"text":"然後再來其實他們中間還有非常多消費爭議的問題就是如果這個主辦單位真的是中國的公司那例如像這樣的問題我們到底台灣能不能處理就是他們現在疑似主辦單位自己就是黃牛甚至是控票蓋票這樣的行為這個是目前粉絲截圖的一個畫面下一頁"},{"start":213.396,"end":231.973,"text":"那這個就是現在大家最擔心的因為現在台灣其實有很多這種包括很多韓星、泰星來台灣的活動他們都是中國的公司來承辦那當然台灣他們可能會掛名一個就是類似我不能說他是白手套或是空殼公司但是很明顯"},{"start":233.214,"end":248.563,"text":"實質在運舊的單位都是中國的公司導致說發生什麼事情這個是今年二月有人參加Rain的演唱會結果他只是在自己的應援物上面寫到台灣就被主辦單位要求不能帶著這樣的應援小物進場"},{"start":249.824,"end":269.163,"text":"在台灣喔 這樣的RAND演唱會在台灣辦可是他卻不能寫台灣的應援物進場這是實實在在發生的事情甚至也有其他類似的韓星、泰星的演唱會在台灣都因為主辦單位是中資導致他們在現場沒有辦法提自己的國家在台灣辦耶"},{"start":270.584,"end":288.177,"text":"所以這個我希望接下來不要再讓台灣的粉絲連在台灣參加演唱會都還得跪著追星這是我相信很多粉絲在台灣都覺得非常委屈的地方是 謝謝委員的質詢委員的質詢也是我們茶季的重點就是說你來台灣"},{"start":289.549,"end":305.227,"text":"辦的這些重要的演唱會或是表演活動一定是要合法的公司沒有合法我們消費者的權益就沒有得到保障包括你剛剛所說的實名制之後他把個資送到哪裡去如果按照我們"},{"start":306.368,"end":334.902,"text":"我們個資法我們是要保障我們國人的個資也不能送到境外去這是違法的這個部分我們也會請我們的文化部協同相關機構來做查核更嚴重的是說它如果是中資或者是我們境外敵對勢力辦的這個相關的活動那可能還會矮化台灣那這些都是我們查處的重點謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":335.362,"end":340.068,"text":"好 謝謝主委那我最後再提醒一個這個現在也希望我們陸委會可以幫忙關心因為現在在台灣辦的這一場演唱會因為他們在中國也有賣票那現在聽說是有中國的粉絲要用簽證不服的名義"},{"start":353.224,"end":380.58,"text":"來到台灣目的是參加演唱會但是他提供了其他的他有一個教學手法跟你說你們來台灣就用什麼簽證什麼簽證但是最後的目的是為了要參加這個演唱會那我不知道這樣子名義不符是不是可以直接去採取然後不要讓這一些名義不符的人拿著這種簽證然後用這種違法的方式偷渡來台呢"},{"start":381.488,"end":401.858,"text":"是,如果要挑戰我們通關入境的嚴格的許可的制度我是覺得當事人真的是不要來釋法我想得不償失,應該循著正常的管道來台灣參加表演活動"},{"start":402.338,"end":420.368,"text":"好謝謝主委所以這個案子因為他們現在網路上已經出現各種的教學手法教你如何用其他的包括商務簽、醫療簽來到台灣然後你可以來這邊參加演唱會是所以像這樣的案子也希望我們陸委會可以協助來調查"},{"start":421.568,"end":444.993,"text":"好謝謝那最後一點時間一點點我希望可以我們海委會的管主委這邊我想要再跟你關心一下因為我看到目前這個我們業務費因為遭凍結三成嘛導致說我們基本的行政預作只能到七八月那我看了真的是膽戰心驚讓我非常擔心我當然希望說趕快這兩天我們就把它解凍掉感謝議員"},{"start":445.933,"end":472.823,"text":"影響我們海巡的基本運作這是我最擔心的那所以這個也希望我們可以如果可以的話再幫我們多加說明多加溝通我們會努力的說明那今天給委員也是厚厚的一本很抱歉那請委員好這個要拜託那最後我還要這個建議一下因為我看到四月底其實我們海委會跟屏東的地檢署有合辦了一個海嵐安全聯防地區應變平台"},{"start":474.644,"end":502.923,"text":"那我看到这个新闻我是认为蛮肯定的这是一个好的起头那是不是也可以在这边建议既然屏东有了一个这样的平台示范区那我们这个海岚联防的部分是不是跟其他的县市的地检署也来合作呢是那宜兰地检署也很积极我们也有在这里要建立平台因为在北部的海域也是海岚很重要的海域看宜兰啊新北啊或者是其他光是这个海岚"},{"start":503.763,"end":515.915,"text":"的出口重要的地方都來努力看看好那我就是以上建議那我也一直非常關心這個海嵐維護的工作那我也覺得海委會非常辛苦希望你們繼續加油謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":716,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（11時20分）謝謝主席，請陸委會邱主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：主委，我要跟你請教一個案子，最近我收到非常多關於泰國明星LING 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ORM見面會的陳情案，其實當中與中資有非常大的關係，因為粉絲的購票權益一直都有爭議，所以那時候我也馬上請陸委會幫忙協助調查，看看辦這個粉絲見面會的主辦單位「超奇娛樂」到底是不是背後有中資？有沒有違反港澳條例？甚至超奇背後的負責人是共青團的成員，他是不是也有統戰的背景？當時我們請陸委會調查之後，不知陸委會是不是已經啟動調查了？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，不管是兩岸條例或是港澳條例，到臺灣來如果沒有辦理登記或是成立分公司、辦事處，那就不能從事營商的活動。經查他還是一個非法的公司，如果他違法在臺灣經營這些商業活動就屬於非法活動，現在我們也請檢調單位密注這件事情，看他有沒有從事這些非法活動。據我們了解他辦理這個活動，目前有關場地的活動或者是售票的活動，都是請臺灣的公司來承辦，但我們還在看主辦方是誰，他如果掛名掛上去的話就涉及違法，我們一定依法嚴格查辦。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝主委的說明，現在的關鍵就是他們的主辦單位直接掛「超奇娛樂」，但是超奇娛樂很明顯是一家澳門的公司，母公司在中國，這件事情到底有沒有違法，就是我希望陸委會可以協助調查的。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["黃委員捷：再來我要請教一下，其實現在臺灣很多追星人參加這樣的活動，他們不希望在追星的時候必須得跪著追星，這就是我希望臺灣的政府單位可以讓追星人放心的地方。我這邊講幾個重點，首先是關於實名制的問題，現在有很多人說不知道這個主辦單位到底有沒有疑慮，導致粉絲在買票的時候也會有疑慮，就是如果主辦單位真的是中國的公司，那麼他用實名制，會不會導致自己的個資被洩漏？這是現在民眾很擔心的。","再來，其實他們中間還有非常多消費爭議的問題，如果這個主辦單位真的是中國的公司，那麼像這樣的問題，到底臺灣能不能處理？現在疑似主辦單位自己就是黃牛，甚至出現空票、蓋票的行為，現在本席show出來的是粉絲截圖的畫面。接下來是大家最擔心的，因為現在有很多韓星、泰星來臺灣的活動，他們都是中國的公司來承辦，當然他們可能會掛名一個類似……我不能說他是白手套或是空殼公司，但是很明顯實質在運作的單位都是中國的公司，導致發生什麼事情？今年2月有人參加Rain的演唱會，結果他只是在自己的應援物上面寫到臺灣，就被主辦單位要求不能帶著這樣的應援小物進場，這是在臺灣哦！Rain的演唱會在臺灣辦，可是他卻不能拿寫著「臺灣」的應援物進場，這是實實在在發生的事情，甚至也有其他類似的韓星、泰星的演唱會在臺灣舉辦，都因為主辦單位是中資，導致他們在現場沒有辦法提自己的國家，這是在臺灣辦耶！所以我希望接下來不要再讓臺灣的粉絲連在臺灣參加演唱會，都還得跪著追星，我相信這是很多在臺灣的粉絲都覺得非常委屈的地方。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，謝謝委員的質詢，委員的質詢也是我們查緝的重點，就是說你來臺灣辦的這些重要的演唱會或是表演活動，一定是要合法的公司，如果沒有合法，消費者的權益就沒有得到保障。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["邱主任委員垂正：包括你剛剛所說的實名制之後，他把個資送到哪裡去？按照我們的個資法，我們是要保障國人的個資，你不能送到境外去，這是違法的，這個部分我們也會請文化部協同相關機構來查核。更嚴重的是，如果是中資或者是境外敵對勢力所舉辦的相關活動，那可能還會矮化臺灣，這些都是我們查處的重點，謝謝委員提醒。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝主委，我最後再提醒一個，同時也希望陸委會可以幫忙關心，現在在臺灣辦的這場演唱會，因為他們在中國也有賣票，聽說現在有中國的粉絲要用簽證不符的名義來到臺灣，目的是參加演唱會，但是他提供了其他的……他們有一個教學手法，教他們來臺灣就用什麼簽證，但是最後的目的是為了要參加這個演唱會。我不知道像這樣名義不符，是不是可以直接裁處，不要讓這一些名義不符的人拿著這種簽證，用這種違法的方式偷渡來臺呢？"],["邱主任委員垂正：如果要挑戰我們通關入境嚴格許可的制度，我覺得當事人真的不要來試法，我想這是得不償失，應該循著正常的管道來臺灣參加表演活動。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝主委，針對這個案子，因為他們現在的網路上已經出現各種教學手法，教你如何用其他的方式，包括商務簽、醫療簽來到臺灣，然後你可以來這邊參加演唱會。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，這我們會關注。"],["黃委員捷：像這樣的案子，也希望陸委會可以協助調查。"],["邱主任委員垂正：好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：最後還剩一點點時間，我想請教海委會管主委，在此我想要再關心一下，因為目前你們的業務費被凍結三成，導致基本行政運作只能維持到7、8月，我看了真的是膽顫心驚，讓我非常擔心，我當然希望這兩天趕快把它解凍掉，不要影響海巡的基本運作，這是我最擔心的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：如果可以的話，請主委再多加說明、多加溝通。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，我們會努力的說明，今天給委員的報告也是厚厚的一本，很抱歉，請委員再給我們支持。"],["黃委員捷：好，這一點要拜託。","最後我還要建議一下，因為我看到4月底海委會和屏東地檢署合辦了一個海纜安全聯防地區應變平臺，看到這則新聞我是蠻肯定的，這是一個好的起頭。是不是也可以在這邊建議，既然屏東有了這樣的平臺示範區，那麼有關海纜聯防的部分，是不是跟其他縣市的地檢署也來合作呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，宜蘭地檢署也很積極，我們也要在這裡建立平臺，因為北部海域也是海纜很重要的海域。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，包括宜蘭、新北，或者是其他海纜出口重要的地方都來努力看看。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們都會配合。"],["黃委員捷：好，我提出以上建議，我一直非常關心海纜維護的工作，我也覺得海委會非常辛苦，希望你們繼續加油。"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：蘇巧慧委員改書面質詢。","葉元之、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","請王委員鴻薇。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","高金素梅","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","黃捷","王鴻薇","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝 先有請海委會主委好 請管主委主委謝謝那今天內政委員會特別到這個大會議室來做這些預算的煽動應該是解凍的這些會議的討論那我想要強調一件事情"},{"start":31.457,"end":48.953,"text":"就是主委在4月17號的時候在質詢台上在內政委員會的質詢台上那有表示因為我們在去年做的這些決議裡面刪減預算的部分不得留用那所以今天就算解凍"},{"start":50.234,"end":64.95,"text":"希望可以順利解凍11億 海委會的預算裡面但是被刪掉10億不得流用的部分600噸的蘭嶼艦跟1000噸的花蓮艦是不是還是沒辦法交船 主委"},{"start":65.732,"end":86.412,"text":"各位委員報告因為我們還有其他被刪減的部分我們真的是在刀口上的錢所以我們要想辦法把它們補足所以在可以留用而被刪減但是又非常有高度急迫性的部分我們給予它補足了以後"},{"start":86.892,"end":97.883,"text":"到最後我們總共處理的結果就是有這兩艘艦艇年底的時候我們確實是會延遲交貨所以我要在這邊很嚴正的"},{"start":99.542,"end":120.709,"text":"曾經刪減過這些預算的藍白委員說今天的解凍希望可以順利解凍的順利其實可以讓我們所有的海巡人員包含油料包含所有的這些包含岸上的這些基地等等的可以有充分的包含水電物資"},{"start":121.809,"end":146.228,"text":"可以使用甚至加班費等等是可以使用的如果今天可以解凍順利的話但是刪掉的還是救不回來主委是吧刪除的部分我們能救的挪一挪以後就是有這麼多的缺口那其實是不止這一個部分第二個統三的部分國外旅費還有國內旅費還有出國教育訓練費用"},{"start":147.849,"end":163.738,"text":"這個也是在委員會裡面非常熱烈討論的還是被捅刪了所以對於解凍還是會影響到我們的國際交流派員赴美訓練還有相關的這些工程建設的進度"},{"start":165.884,"end":190.236,"text":"這個部分不能留用的項目比較多因此我們遇到的困難也比較大那譬如說國外的授訓旅費等等的話我們確實是必須要縮小規模那以國內旅費來講的話譬如我們海巡署其實已經重大的影響到因為我們海巡署是這樣就是說所有的分署還有所有的安檢等等單位是遍佈在全國"},{"start":191.276,"end":210.237,"text":"數百個單位那他們常常必須要國內的旅費他們來開會等等那因為這個經費被刪除的結果我們沒有辦法補那因此整個海巡署他今年公出或者是出公差他的善雜費全部歸零他還包含很多還包含公殺"},{"start":212.279,"end":239.852,"text":"包含在東沙如果要回來那要搭飛機的話就會受影響那如果要排成船班或者是要拜託國防部的話就會遇到一些影響所以希望今天的解凍的部分是可以順利我們至少可以救回來至少到七八月以後這個部分因為現在已經五月了嘛我們到八月份很多就真的"},{"start":239.872,"end":259.37,"text":"就是沒有辦法像八月份的話會本部我們的執行率就要高達99.76那以海保的話就會高達99.87那國海院也會高達96.71%那就算是海巡也是將近95%的執行率所以八月以後我們幾乎會無以為繼"},{"start":260.171,"end":286.39,"text":"好 謝謝主委 那我最後算一個簡單的數學行政院提出4100億的國土安全任性計畫裡面包含1500億強化國土安全任性預算裡面有包含周邊海域監測有包含立體徵收 有包含海岸監偵還有包含規劃新型的巡防艦艇"},{"start":287.981,"end":302.357,"text":"但是這裡有1500億那另外還有針對台電的撥補提出1000億那另外還有相關的一些照護民生以及就業安定930億以及1600億這樣加起來是4100億"},{"start":307.29,"end":324.582,"text":"在野黨提出來2300億普發現金之外那目前的4100億很明顯的就是超過了那我們希望我們可以來支持由行政院來提出來的這些方案包含國土安全任性謝謝主委你請回"},{"start":326.223,"end":344.845,"text":"主委讓你簡單回應一下我跟委員報告我真的是非常非常希望國土任性屬於海選署的這個部分可以被支持為什麼呢因為它將是劃時代的里程碑跟委員報告的話我從就任2023年開始的時候就認為說我們要海空一體"},{"start":345.425,"end":372.182,"text":"我們空中的能量是幾乎是沒有辦法達成我們應有的任務讓我們水下或者是水面我們也都還不夠我們夜間也都還不夠所以這筆錢如果能夠挹注於海巡署的話海巡署將是一個莫大的蛻變它將會是真正的海空一體立體的能力會建構它將是24小時的能量可以完整的補充起來"},{"start":372.962,"end":396.344,"text":"而如果說明年開始我們要用新的財化法這麼重要的一個歷史性的經費我們不知道說用新的財化法下去的話中央的預算能不能挹注海巡署這麼重大的轉型所以這一筆預算如果能夠挹注海巡署至少我們前三年的預算可以確保的話這個重要的歷史的里程碑就可以往前走"},{"start":396.964,"end":405.769,"text":"謝謝主委 海巡等同國防我希望我們在這4100億裡面等於加強我們的國防真的非常急迫性的需要再請客委會主委 謝謝好 請谷主委"},{"start":417.221,"end":419.304,"text":"主席抱歉我再多一分鐘的時間來釐清為什麼我們用內政委員會為主題那今天來到這邊"},{"start":427.745,"end":445.346,"text":"我的印象中在去年審議預算的時候內政委員會並沒有刪除那麼多客委會的預算有凍結四億但是在院會裡面還是被刪除了一億九千萬的預算"},{"start":446.607,"end":457.591,"text":"在院會裡面突然跳過委員會把委員會討論的東西全部跳過直接在院會提出二三讀要刪除課委會預算所以身為內政委員會"},{"start":460.936,"end":480.947,"text":"不只客家委員他要提出說他在內政委員會並沒有刪除客家委員會的預算沒有凍結客家委員會的預算但是我要強調的這一些客家籍的委員還是在院會投票的時候投出刪除客委會的預算"},{"start":482.168,"end":509.014,"text":"包含傅坤祺、林思明、徐欣盈、徐巧欣還是在二三讀的時候大砍課委會預算還是在二三讀的時候凍結課委會預算所以今天我們回到我們委員會希望可以順利凍結主委希望你全力捍衛課委會預算是也謝謝委員以及內委會的委員全力來支持那希望今天的解凍案能夠順利來請委員支持謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":684,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（11時11分）謝謝。先有請海委會主委。"],["主席：請管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：李委員好！"],["李委員柏毅：主委，謝謝。今天內政委員會特別到這個大會議室來做這些預算解凍的討論，我想要強調一件事情，就是主委4月17日在內政委員會的質詢臺上有表示，因為在我們去年做的這些決議裡面，刪減預算的部分不得流用，所以今天就算解凍，希望可以順利解凍11億海委會的預算，但是被刪掉的10億不得流用部分，使得600噸的蘭嶼艦與1,000噸的花蓮艦是不是還是沒辦法交船？主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，因為我們還有其他被刪減的部分真的是在刀口上的錢，所以我們要想辦法把他們補足，在可以流用而被刪減又非常有高度急迫性的部分，我們補足以後，到最後處理的結果，總共有這兩艘艦艇年底的時候確實會延遲交貨。"],["李委員柏毅：所以我要在這邊很嚴正的跟曾經刪減過這些預算的藍白委員說，今天的解凍希望可以順利，解凍順利其實讓所有海巡人員，包含岸上的基地等等，有充分的包含油料、包含水電、包含物資可以使用，甚至加班費等等也可以使用，如果今天可以解凍順利的話，但是刪掉的還是救不回來，主委，是嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：刪除的部分，我們能救的挪一挪以後，就是有這麼多缺口，其實不只這一個部分，還有很多部分。"],["李委員柏毅：好。第二個，統刪的部分，包含國外旅費，還有國內旅費、還有出國教育訓練費用，這個也是在委員會裡面非常熱烈討論的，還是被統刪了，這會影響到我們的國際交流、派員赴美訓練，還有這些相關工程建設的進度。"],["管主任委員碧玲：這個部分不能流用的項目比較多，因此我們遇到的困難也比較大，譬如國外受訓、旅費等等，我們確實必須要縮小規模，以國內旅費來講的話，譬如海巡署其實已經被重大影響到，因為海巡署所有分署，還有所有安檢等等單位，遍布在全國，數百個單位，他們常常必須要有國內的旅費來開會等等，因為這個經費被刪除，結果我們沒有辦法補，因此整個海巡署今年公出或者是出公差的膳雜費全部歸零，完全不能領……"],["李委員柏毅：他還包含很多在離島的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，包含在東沙如果要回來……"],["李委員柏毅：東沙，原本3個月可以回來1次，可能也都受影響。"],["管主任委員碧玲：要搭飛機的話，就會受影響，如果要排乘船班，或者是要拜託國防部的話，也會遇到一些影響。"],["李委員柏毅：所以希望今天解凍的部分可以順利……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們至少可以救回來凍結的這個部分。"],["李委員柏毅：至少到7、8月以後……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["李委員柏毅：因為現在已經5月了，繼續讓所有人員到7、8月……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，到8月份我們很多就真的是沒有辦法，到8月份的話，會本部的執行率就會高達99.76%，以海保的話，就會高達99.87%，國海院也會高達96.71%，就算是海巡，也是將近95%的執行率，所以8月以後我們幾乎會無以為繼。"],["李委員柏毅：好，謝謝。主委，我最後算一個簡單的數學，行政院提出4,100億強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性的特別條例，裡面包含1,500億強化國土安全韌性預算，有包含周邊海域監測、有包含立體偵蒐、有包含岸海監偵，還有包含規劃新建的巡防艦艇，這個有1,500億，另外針對台電的撥補，提出1,000億，還有相關照顧民生以及安定就業的1,670億（包含台電的撥補）以及930億，這樣加起來是4,100億。現在在野黨提出來2,300億普發現金，以目前的4,100億，很明顯的就是超過了，我們希望可以來支持由行政院提出來的這些方案，包含國土安全韌性。主委，讓你簡單回應一下。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我跟委員報告，我真的是非常非常希望國土韌性屬於海巡署的這個部分可以被支持，為什麼呢？因為它將是劃時代的里程碑。","跟委員報告，我從2023年開始就任的時候就認為我們要海空一體，我們空中的能量幾乎是沒有辦法達成應有的任務，我們的水下或者是水面也都還不夠，夜間也都還不夠，所以這一筆錢如果能夠挹注於海巡署的話，海巡署將會有一個莫大的蛻變，它將會是真正的海空一體，立體的能力會建構，它將是24小時的能量，可以完整的補充起來；而且如果明年開始我們要用新的財劃法，這麼重要的歷史性經費，我們不知道中央的預算能不能挹注海巡署這麼重大的轉型，所以這一筆預算如果能夠挹注海巡署，至少前三年的預算可以確保的話，這個重要的歷史里程碑就可以往前走。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝主委，海巡等同國防，這4,100億裡面等於加強我們的國防，我希望我們一定要支持……"],["管主任委員碧玲：真的非常急迫性的需要。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝。再請客委會主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。"],["主席：請古主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：委員好！"],["李委員柏毅：主席，抱歉！我再多1分鐘的時間來釐清為什麼我們用內政委員會為主題今天來到這邊，我的印象中，在去年審議預算的時候，內政委員會並沒有刪除那麼多客委會的預算，且凍結4億，但是在院會裡面還是刪除了1億9,000萬的預算，在院會裡面突然跳過委員會，把委員會討論的東西全部跳過，直接在院會提出二、三讀刪除客委會預算。身為內政委員會的委員，不只客家的委員，他要提出他在內政委員會並沒有刪除客家委員會的預算，沒有凍結客家委員會的預算，但是我要強調的，這一些客家籍的委員還是在院會投票的時候投出刪除客委會的預算，包含傅崐萁、林思銘、徐欣瑩、徐巧芯，還是在二、三讀的時候大砍客委會預算，還是在二、三讀的時候凍結客委會預算，所以今天我們回到內政委員會希望可以順利解凍，主委，希望你全力捍衛客委會預算。"],["古主任委員秀妃：是，也謝謝委員以及內委會的委員全力來支持，希望今天的解凍案能夠順利，請委員支持，謝謝。"],["李委員柏毅：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","高金素梅","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","黃捷","王鴻薇","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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我要請我們這個陸委會的邱主委好 請邱主委"},{"start":16.758,"end":28.547,"text":"主委好 主委好我們定日改 我們陸委會有召開我們這個記者會說有接到協議說有大陸的宗教團體有依據規定申請來台灣來進行這個宗教的交流我們陸委會說會依法查判現在兩方的交流很侵犯像這個馬祖 翁爺的信仰 這些共識都到"},{"start":43.359,"end":72.428,"text":"大陸那些宗教都有關係,也都有在互動像這樣,跟大陸那些宗教交流,台灣的教育生育都要申請如果沒有申請,就算違法所以跟威廉伯格來台灣交流都要申請尤其委員非常重視那個宗教或文化的交流那我們對於這類的交流只要對等尊嚴"},{"start":73.348,"end":79.075,"text":"只要是從事單純的專業交流我們都正向看待像很多專業的這些"},{"start":82.597,"end":106.033,"text":"這個儀軌的交流典禮的交流或者教育研修的這個交流這涉及到我們台灣也是一個宗教自由的國家我們歡迎做這個交流但是他如果是他本身不具有專業的身份他純粹就是想來參訪遶境不是專業的這個宗教交流那我們就會審慎看待"},{"start":106.573,"end":124.306,"text":"他是不是藉由宗教文化交流來進行統戰或滲透分化我們過去在很多例子當中發現有一些違規違常的現象我們希望是塑造一個健康有序的交流環境也請委員支持我們"},{"start":126.178,"end":135.704,"text":"我們現在宗教,是都比較怕去用鐵矯錢,說去用統戰,我們宗教信仰,都是一些民間的一個活動,當五月七日,白沙燈那座,要去到我們各港,進行這個各座的勞勤奮鬥的這個活動,有各人團體,去跟我們各港公訴,要申請勞款,當"},{"start":155.103,"end":156.047,"text":"過去幾年在內閣掛槓的時候,他們在那裡做事"},{"start":160.404,"end":168.011,"text":"結果 國安公司跟他們說 那個時間 行政課很多行政課很多 都會進到國安地區而且 國安的國共委員 國安警察委員 大家都出來發聲來應酬一年一度過三個月的這個合作的這個會議的活動非常努力的一個活動"},{"start":188.368,"end":196.537,"text":"跟他們說請他們這裡的國務院團隊延遲結果國務院團隊在臉書在網絡說各港人都是中共同路人的中共同路人說我們各港人都會去通戰這種惡質的公法"},{"start":208.635,"end":221.025,"text":"主委你有沒有什麼想法?跟委員報告,我們認為任何的政治活動啊,這個不當藉口...終究幾終究,陣地幾陣地,怎麼可以這樣把我們國家安危?怎麼可以免得我們怎麼做?這真的是氣象惡劣的一種作弱"},{"start":227.581,"end":237.258,"text":"我們也希望兩岸的交流不要有統戰化、政治化、風險化那我們都來協助我們相關的團體在進行這個交流能夠降低風險,讓它專業化、單純化"},{"start":240.39,"end":243.732,"text":"我們希望,我們希望說,我們這個宗教交流,我們應該要把可行、不可行,我們把明文規定給很清楚,不是用這個個案處理的方式,讓人無所適從,我們防範統戰當然是重要,但是真正這樣做,"},{"start":263.925,"end":270.152,"text":"應該要從法律上去認定交流的規範,不是用我們行政手段來對這個個案做研查所以我們會制度化、機制化?我們移民署在國內有要求大概一萬兩千人的待留人"},{"start":283.866,"end":308.476,"text":"要公告這個已上司中國戶籍的證明對像是2004年進行就拿到台灣新聞局的大陸去或是說出席在我們在中國的主陸有這麼多人都已經在台灣生活了二三十年了早就對大陸的一些行政程序比較好實施不知道要怎麼找人倒三天"},{"start":312.157,"end":318.521,"text":"這個地區,如果有一些地區沒有要出這個證明,我們要怎麼來幫他們協助?是,委員你如果不出案,今天都交給我們來幫他們處理,跟委員報告是這樣因為我們是依法,必須取得我們台灣身份的人,必須要放棄中國大陸的身份然後把這個放棄中國大陸原籍證明,再繳回來"},{"start":339.734,"end":368.385,"text":"這才會合法取得他台灣的身份我們這個是依法行政那過去可能沒有落實我們現在全面來清查但是中華會員說的很重要我們要協助那個不方便的目前現階段沒有能力回去中國大陸或是遇到有什麼自愛難行的我們都來協助他我們會看到他的類型看能不能適用我們的這種替代方案或是配套措施"},{"start":369.045,"end":383.311,"text":"能夠在他有能力的時候再回去放棄我們都會來每個個案的輔導如果服務處有相關的案件我們都很願意來協處感謝主委 我知道主委都非常願意來協助一些困難的過分我直接建議 主要我直接建議我們政府 針對我們這裡的政策第一我們是要把它講清楚"},{"start":395.256,"end":400.22,"text":"這個規矩 再來 國藥文化福祉局長 這裡是各種款項尤其是這個宗教自由和保護穩定的議題再來 就應該要從法律面訂出一套清楚的一個制度不是說用我們憲政的方針 來對著這個五情五切的制度"},{"start":420.816,"end":424.677,"text":"雙雄來跟他們做一個抵制還是做一個研究希望說我們宗教交流能夠給一個查核我們政府應該站上我們這個協助運動的角度來做事情跟他們講清楚整個基地的運動才能夠讓兩方交流有這個秩序有這個秩序你們才不會覺得自己"},{"start":445.845,"end":448.852,"text":"因為有人奇妙說,就去出秤去查查,這樣啦請我們主委在這個部分先講一下還有感謝主委,謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":661,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（11時3分）感謝主席，有請陸委會邱主委。"],["主席：請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：丁委員好。"],["丁委員學忠：主委好。上禮拜陸委會有召開記者會表示有接獲檢舉，說是有大陸的宗教團體沒依規定申請來臺灣進行宗教的交流，我們陸委會說是會依法查辦。現在兩岸的交流很頻繁，像是媽祖、王爺的信仰，這些宮廟都跟大陸的宗教有關係，也都有在活動。像這樣跟大陸那邊的宗教交流，臺灣的宮廟是不是也都要申請才行？如果沒申請的話，是不是就算違法？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，來臺灣交流都要申請，尤其委員非常重視宗教或文化的交流，我們對於這類的交流，只要符合對等尊嚴，只要是從事單純的專業交流，我們都會正向看待。像很多專業儀軌的交流，典禮的交流，或是教育研修的交流，這涉及到……我們臺灣也是一個宗教自由的國家，我們歡迎做這個交流，但他本身如不具專業的身分，純粹就是想來參訪遶境，而非專業的宗教交流，我們就會審慎看待，他是不是藉由宗教文化的交流來進行統戰或滲透、分化，這個就……我們過去在很多例子當中，發現有一些違規、違常的現象，我們希望能塑造一個健康有序的交流環境，也請委員支持我們。"],["丁委員學忠：宗教現在很怕被人貼標籤，說是被人家統戰，但宗教信仰都是一些民間的活動，本月初一是白沙屯媽祖起駕到北港進行謁祖的遶境會香活動，但就有罷免團體要到北港公所申請路權，當白沙屯媽祖來到北港的時候，他們就要在當地造勢，結果北港公所跟他們說，那個時間很多香燈腳都會進入北港地區，而且北港的各宮廟及所有的人民都會歡喜地出來迎接一年一度白沙屯媽祖謁祖會香的活動，那是一個非常熱鬧的活動，因此請這些罷免團體延期，結果罷免團體就在臉書說北港人都是中共同路人，說我們北港媽祖被人統戰了。對於這種惡質的說法，主委可有什麼想法嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，我們認為任何的政治活動，不當介入……"],["丁委員學忠：宗教歸宗教、政治歸政治，怎麼可以這樣罵我們北港人！怎麼可以罵我們的媽祖！這真的是一種非常惡質的作法！"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們也希望兩岸的交流不要有統戰化、政治化、風險化，我們都會協助相關的團體進行這個交流，能夠降低風險，讓它專業化、單純化。"],["丁委員學忠：我們應該把宗教交流的可行、不可行予以明文規定、寫清楚，而不是用個案處理的方式，讓人無所適從。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["丁委員學忠：防範統戰固然重要，但就算要這樣做，也應該要從法律上去明定交流的規範，而不是用行政的手段針對個案去嚴查。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我們會制度化、機制化。"],["丁委員學忠：我們上個月有要求，大概有1萬2,000名大陸人要繳交「已喪失中國戶籍」的證明，對象是2004年之前就拿到臺灣身分證的大陸配偶，或是在中國出生的子女，很多人都已經在臺灣生活二、三十年，早就對大陸的行政程序不那麼熟悉了，也不知道怎麼請人幫忙，如果有些地區不願意出具相關的證明，你們要怎麼協助人家？"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員的服務處如有案件都可以交給我們處理，也向委員報告，是這樣的，因為取得臺灣身分的人依法必須放棄中國大陸的身分，把放棄中國大陸的原藉證明繳回來，這樣才是合法取得他在臺灣的身分，我們這樣是依法行政，過去可能沒有落實，但現在要全面清查。就像剛剛委員講到很重要的一點，我們要協助那些不方便的，目前現階段沒有能力回去中國大陸，或是遇到有什麼窒礙難行的，我們都會協助他們。我們會視其類型，看能不能適用我們的替代方案，或是配套措施，能夠在他有能力的時候再回去放棄，我們都會針對每個個案去輔導，委員服務處如有相關的案件，我們都很願意來協處。"],["丁委員學忠：好，感謝主委，我知道主委都非常願意來協助人民困難的部分……"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["丁委員學忠：最後我在這裡建議，政府針對這些政策，第一、要講清楚規矩，不要模糊不清；第二、各種權益，尤其是宗教自由及戶籍穩定的議題，應該要從法律面訂出一套清楚的制度，不是用行政方式這樣不清不楚的制度，突然對他們抵制或牽制；希望就宗教交流及戶籍查核，政府應該站在協助民眾的角度來做事情，把話說清楚，規矩訂明白，才能讓兩岸交流有秩序，人民才不會莫名其妙就出了差錯，請主委在這個部分慎重一下……"],["邱主任委員垂正：好，謝謝委員。"],["丁委員學忠：好，感謝主委，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝。"],["丁委員學忠：謝謝主席。"],["主席：請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","高金素梅","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","黃捷","王鴻薇","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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我們有請陸委會主委好 請邱主委"},{"start":17.288,"end":38.796,"text":"黃委員好所以首先本席要表達的內容其實是要針對我們各部會來做溝通不是只有針對陸委會那今天是審查我們海委會、各委會、中選會、陸委會總預算報告的結通案那本席相信內政委員會的委員態度都一致就是希望中央能夠儘速送結通報告來我們這樣可以儘速來審議儘速的趕快來動之預算"},{"start":41.817,"end":56.587,"text":"謝謝委員但我們攤開整個時間表來看114年年度我們中央政府總預算在今年的1月21號三讀通過2月19號立法院知情賴總統公布那賴總統則是在3月21日才公布那依照過去我們的慣例"},{"start":57.327,"end":84.67,"text":"那當總統公佈之後各部會應該就會著手提交相關的這個解凍的專案報告或者是書面報告給立法院那不過這段時間有公務人員吹哨者爆料有高層要求部會押注預算的解凍報告那甚至文化部內部的信件更直接說請確認解凍報告不會被解讀成早早就寫好現在才送來的這個字眼而行政院主任長甚至到1月22號才公佈表示"},{"start":85.33,"end":101.067,"text":"要各部會解凍案一律全部送出來這有趣的是說當院長這一句話一講完立法院就收到各部會的預算解凍報告我想這根本就是坐實各部會其實確實早就準備好這個解凍報告但因為高層的壓力才不敢送"},{"start":102.168,"end":126.75,"text":"中央政府是不是政治操作而刻意拖延預算凍結那我想國人的眼睛都是雪亮的齁那根據中華民國憲法第六條的規定立法院有議決法例案、預算案、建案等重要事項之權這也代表立法院深負憲法賦予的預算審查權目的就是為了要為我們人民守住納稅人的錢因此才會要求各部會"},{"start":128.24,"end":150.547,"text":"提出相關的報告跟國人說清楚說我們的錢到底要怎麼用我想這才是政府負責任的一個態度的表現那然而我們立法院在聽取各部會預算解凍報告的內容之後只要預算運用合理我相信絕對都會支持預算解凍讓各部會可以盡快來執行因此本席在這邊要跟各部會再一次表達"},{"start":151.667,"end":169.467,"text":"只要合理的使用預算本席絕對支持也希望能夠盡速整理盡速解凍使用我們也希望各部會可以跟立法院積極來溝通不要因為特定高層的壓力而選擇讓政治掛帥製造更多的爭議甚至也讓我們的公務員為難"},{"start":170.808,"end":191.036,"text":"那針對今天的專題報告我想因為質詢時間有限本席要特別針對農產的部分為台東的農民來請命我想因為如果兩岸的關係持續的冰凍對台東的農產品衝擊非常大我想這個本席在散會期都不斷的質詢那對於如何要來改善我們從今天陸委會提出的報告仍然看不出有更好的方法"},{"start":192.079,"end":218.42,"text":"那主委你在報告中一直強調陸委會跟農業部非常的努力但本席要跟主委報告我相信你們願意努力但是問題是從目前的結果來看農民真的很難感受到那也因為這樣地方政府跟農友必須要自立自強台東縣在饒縣長不斷的努力下積極溝通好不容易終於才幫助台東的世家恢復銷售往中國大陸那今年出饒縣長也帶團到對岸行銷農產品"},{"start":221.542,"end":238.974,"text":"本席也跟青龍也一起過去我想大家的心態都很單純就是我們只想要幫農民找出路那結果沒有想到說居然有往今側翼把這些青龍的照片放到網路上說他們是去向中國下跪"},{"start":240.493,"end":251.32,"text":"我想這個害無辜的青農又被這些青鳥出征我想這個真的是已經瘋狂到一個極點那地方首長幫農民賣農產品有錯嗎農民幫自己找出物有錯嗎"},{"start":255.783,"end":283.66,"text":"我們台灣不能因為政治惡鬥剝奪民生造成人民之間的仇恨跟堆積這是本市一直在要求的那最後本席最後要跟陸委會來表達就是我們千萬不要忘記你們重要的職責之一就是維持兩岸的互動跟關係協助我們兩岸的關係能夠良性的發展那當地方政府願意來分擔部分的責任那協助政府改善兩岸經濟貿易的同時也請中央政府應該要扮演隊友的角色而不是在旁邊"},{"start":284.46,"end":305.559,"text":"人言人語甚至攻擊我想要呼籲大家請務必放下政治鬥爭注重民生經濟跟我們地方政府還有民間團體共同來打開產業的活路讓台東的農業觀光可以恢復往日的榮景以上我想跟主委來說這些我心裡的話謝謝主委"},{"start":307.909,"end":324.919,"text":"謝謝黃委員有關於台中的農業也好 觀光也好我想我也多次跟委員說明我們確實要保護我們的農民守護我們的農業那麼由於中國大陸對台還是有很多區別對待還是有很多統戰的思考"},{"start":325.379,"end":346.735,"text":"我們怕它說斷就斷反而讓農民更加的血本無歸還有我們觀光業者更加的投訴我們所以我們要保障它維護它恐怕對於中國大陸的交流我們要非常審慎以對不過就站在委員服務鄉親立場我們也是一樣我們都跟主管部會農業部來保護農民跟我們觀光署一樣來協助我們業者我們會全力以赴謝謝委員資訊"},{"start":353.64,"end":362.119,"text":"謝謝主委把我們老百姓放在心裡面那本席未來我們也期待能夠一起努力讓我們的人民過更好的生活謝謝主委 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":640,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（10時57分）謝謝主席，有請陸委會主委。"],["主席：請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：黃委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：主委好。首先本席要表達的內容其實是要針對各部會去溝通，不是只有針對陸委會。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["黃委員建賓：今天是審查海委會、客委會、中選會、陸委會總預算報告的解凍案，本席相信內政委員會委員的態度都一致，就是希望中央能儘速送解凍報告來，我們就會儘速審議、儘速動支預算。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員建賓：我們攤開整個時間表來看，114年度中央政府總預算在今年1月21號三讀通過，2月19號立法院咨請賴總統公布，賴總統則是在3月21日才公布。依照我們過去的慣例，當總統公布之後，各部會應該就會著手提交解凍相關的專案報告或書面報告給立法院，不過這段時間，有公務人員吹哨者爆料，有高層要求部會壓住預算的解凍報告，甚至文化部內部的信件更直接說，請確認解凍報告不會被解讀成早早就寫好，現在才送來的字眼，行政院卓院長甚至到1月22號才公布表示要各部會解凍案一律全部送出來。有趣的是，當院長這句話一講完，立法院就收到各部會的預算解凍報告，我想這根本就坐實了各部會確實早就準備好解凍報告了，因為高層的壓力才不敢送，中央政府是不是政治操作，刻意拖延預算凍結？","我想，國人的眼睛都是雪亮的，根據中華民國憲法第六十三條的規定，立法院有議決法律案、預算案、戒嚴案等重要事項之權，這也代表立法院身負憲法賦予的預算審查權，目的就是要為人民守住納稅人的錢，因此才會要求各部會提出相關報告，跟國人說清楚我們的錢到底要怎麼用，我想這才是一個政府負責任的態度表現。","然而我們立法院在聽取各部會預算解凍報告的內容之後，只要預算運用合理，相信絕對都會支持預算解凍，讓各部會可以儘快執行。因此本席在這邊要跟各部會再次表達，只要合理地使用預算，本席絕對支持，也希望能夠儘速審議、儘速解凍使用，我們也希望各部會可以跟立法院積極溝通，不要因為特定高層的壓力而選擇讓政治掛帥，製造更多的爭議，甚至也讓我們的公務員為難。","針對今天的專題報告，我想因為質詢的時間有限，本席要特別針對農產的部分為臺東的農民請命。如果兩岸的關係持續冰凍，對臺東農產品的衝擊非常大，本席在上個會期都不斷在質詢，但對於如何改善，我們從今天陸委會提出的報告仍然看不出有更好的方法。主委在報告中一直強調，陸委會跟農業部非常努力，但本席要跟主委報告，我相信你們願意努力，但問題是從目前的結果來看，農民真的很難感受到，也因為這樣，地方政府跟農友必須自己自立自強，臺東縣在饒縣長不斷地努力之下積極溝通，好不容易終於幫助臺東的釋迦恢復往中國大陸的銷售。","今年初饒縣長也帶團到對岸行銷農產品，本席跟青農也一起過去，我相大家的心態都很單純，我們只是想幫農民找出路，結果沒有想到居然有網軍側翼把這些青農的照片放到網路上，說他們是去向中國下跪，這害無辜的青農又被這些青鳥出征，這真的已經瘋狂到一個極點了。地方首長幫農民賣農產品有錯嗎？農民幫自己找出路有錯嗎？我們臺灣不能因為政治惡鬥剝奪了民生，造成人民之間的仇恨跟對峙，這是本席一直在要求的。","最後本席要跟陸委會表達的是，千萬不要忘記你們重要的職責之一，就是維持兩岸的互動跟關係，協助兩岸的關係能夠良性發展。當地方政府願意分擔部分的責任，協助政府改善兩岸經濟貿易的同時，也請中央政府應該扮演隊友的角色，而不是在旁邊冷眼旁觀、冷眼冷語甚至是攻擊。我想呼籲大家，請務必放下政治鬥爭，注重民生經濟，跟我們的地方政府和民間團體共同打開產業的活路，讓臺東的農業、觀光可以恢復往日的榮景。以上，我想跟主委說這些我心裡的話，謝謝主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝黃委員。有關臺東不管是農業也好，觀光也好，我想我也多次跟委員說明，我們確實要保護農民、守護農業，尤其是中國大陸對臺還是有很多區別對待，還是有很多統戰的思考，我們怕它說斷就斷，反而讓農民更加地血本無歸，也讓我們的觀光業者更加地投訴無門，所以我們要保障它、維護它，恐怕對中國大陸的交流，我們要非常審慎以對。"],["黃委員建賓：是。"],["邱主任委員垂正：不過站在委員服務鄉親的立場，我們也是一樣，我們都跟主管部會──農業部在保護農民，也跟觀光署一樣在協助我們的業者，我們會全力以赴，謝謝委員的質詢。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主委把我們的老百姓放在心裡面，本席也期待未來我們能一起努力，讓我們的人民過更好的生活。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝。"],["主席：請丁學忠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","高金素梅","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","黃捷","王鴻薇","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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各位我們主席 我們議會同仁我們各單位我們的主管請我們今天是我們的解凍案的解決包括海洋委員會 不當黨產中選會 還有陸委會 還有客委會今天我們真的非常高興能看到我們的預算的解凍案"},{"start":30.199,"end":40.258,"text":"我們今天來希望能順利的來處理啦讓各部會有正常的運作那我現在我先請我們的中選委我們的主委好請李主委"},{"start":46.977,"end":64.33,"text":"委員好 主委好 主委我還是針對上個禮拜上個禮拜我提出的我們現在又面臨了那個罷免案那我實際上看到我們中選會的一倍金剩下一百萬那行政院的第二一倍金又"},{"start":65.411,"end":81,"text":"僅以六千七百萬那針對我們未來這個罷免案那麼多人的罷免那經費又那麼龐大那未來這個經費的來源要怎樣來取得這是我們目前最頭痛要去思考的問題"},{"start":82.18,"end":109.023,"text":"是的 的確這個罷免案的進行需要經費的支撐但是因為罷免案我們在邊概算的時候沒有辦法預料他到底有沒有或者是有幾個案子因此往例呢都是在罷免案成立的時候呢我們向行政院來申請第二預備金動資那第二預備金才六千七百萬那也不過啊"},{"start":111.021,"end":116.701,"text":"那可能行政院這邊會跟立法院來磋商吧請立法院也能夠支持"},{"start":118.08,"end":140.129,"text":"好的 因為北市看到這個預算 看到未來的經費比較擔憂那你未來你整個罷免案的再實施的話你經費來源還是有問題 那也是自愛難行啊這個是法定必須支出的事項 而且權責是在中央政府所以我們希望這個問題能夠大家來圓滿的解決"},{"start":143.663,"end":151.095,"text":"好的那主委辛苦了謝謝主委你請回那我請陸委會好請就主委"},{"start":158.797,"end":179.276,"text":"主委好 主委好 主委我看到我們的手邊的預算兩岸的中介事務的預算高達兩億五千九百五十七萬那也超過較去年的成長了百分之四十那本期比較想了解的先到我們港澳這一邊"},{"start":180.592,"end":189.898,"text":"我們港澳這邊的辦事處現在有沒有正常在運作公委員報告我們在香港目前沒有派駐同仁在澳門有兩位同仁"},{"start":190.76,"end":214.387,"text":"那我們處理這個港澳業務呢我們都有一個後端的一個監督小組來處理港澳的政策目前還正常運作我們勉勵來維持我們駐館的業務我們希望能夠服務我們台港的民眾特別是國人赴港澳"},{"start":215.507,"end":232.98,"text":"都有一個辦事處可以服務他們同時我們沒有策管的原因也是增加我們在香港澳門我們很多的投資企業的一些信心讓他們能夠在當地持續的安居樂業"},{"start":233.936,"end":263.756,"text":"那香港跟澳門 澳門兩個那香港沒有 那香港的辦事處還存在嗎有 我們有四十幾位的僱員仍然在處理各種文書驗證以及急難救助 還有鎮灶核發等相關業務還在正常進行也跟委員報告我們這兩年的香港的觀光客人數不是第一位就第二位那麼也有賴我們駐港人員的權利的投入"},{"start":265.677,"end":286.573,"text":"對因為我們不管是台商也好不管是觀光客也好他那邊還是要有必要的我們台灣的辦事處在那邊做協助這是本市比較關心的因為畢竟我們台灣在香港澳門那邊還是很多人是那有增長運作這是我們所期待的好謝謝謝謝我們主委謝謝好現在請我們海洋委員會好請管主委"},{"start":300.727,"end":315.955,"text":"現在海洋司法會具體的推展 本市還是很肯定因為我們海巡以及海洋委員會很多的業務的推動 也需要主委的帶動因為畢竟我們有對方有很多非法的遺傳"},{"start":321.778,"end":341.726,"text":"在台灣海峽附近不管是挑釁也好 不管說從事非法的捕魚也好我們海巡都要秉持在那裡維持我們的潛力啦所以說海巡是非常辛苦 這點本省是非常關心 本省也是非常關心我們的預算"},{"start":343.007,"end":350.618,"text":"沒有解凍 未來對我們整個海鮮的推動都是自愛難惜所以說今天可以看到說"},{"start":352.947,"end":370.435,"text":"交易來辦這個王的結凍案我認為這一定要趕快解決不然你後面還有半年的時間你根本就沒辦法去推動是我們到8月的時候就維持不下去了請大家注意未來結凍或是推動來得會更加順利謝謝委員支持好謝謝感謝王主委好那現在我請我們客委會"},{"start":385.209,"end":385.572,"text":"好請客"},{"start":392.396,"end":419.988,"text":"委員好好 主委好主委我看我們那個客家客家的語言的流失的效法的幅度非常的大所以針對我們客家的語言未來我們要怎麼去讓客家語言能夠從下扎根讓你一些小朋友你就要讓他去熟悉我們的客家語言這是本席比較注重因為包括說本席每一年都"},{"start":421.249,"end":446.9,"text":"我們的新北市都在辦童話祭嘛童話祭其實越來人口非常多尤其結合我們的客家一些社團包括客使會啊包括說很多我們的客家族群他們可以來社攤可以在那裡來推動所以說未來我們的客家議員我認為還是要透過一些試劑透過一些社團共同讓我們"},{"start":448.22,"end":464.074,"text":"客家人的下一代他們能接觸我們的客家語言不然你流失的速度非常快今天出來外面大家都沒人在說客語外國客家客家人他下一代他也不教他客家語言這是未來我們要去重視的"},{"start":465.104,"end":470.348,"text":"是那個很同意委員的說法現在流失率這麼的嚴重確實我們很多經費都是在學校的教育上從幼兒園或者是國小端的教學這個我們相當重視那同時也觸及到社會跟家庭"},{"start":486.799,"end":512.011,"text":"但是還是沒有辦法全面這個我們承認這個確實在整體上的推動還需要很大的力量去推動所以我們的各項的推廣只要是對小朋友他們有學習的能力可以多接觸最相信對未來我們客家語言推動會更加順利好不好是好 謝謝主委謝謝委員好 謝謝因為時間到了"},{"start":518.172,"end":518.193,"text":"好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":595,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（10時48分）主委、主席、與會同仁、各單位主管。今天是我們解凍案的解決，包括海洋委員會、不當黨產、中選會、陸委會，還有客委會，今天我們真的非常高興能看到預算解凍案，今天希望能順利處理，讓各部會有正常的運作。我現在先請中選會主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：主委好。主委，我還是針對上個禮拜我提出的問題，我們現在又面臨了罷免案，我實際上看到中選會的預備金剩下100萬，行政院的第二預備金又僅有6,700萬，針對未來罷免案有那麼多人的罷免，經費又那麼龐大，未來經費的來源要怎麼樣取得，這是我們目前最頭痛要去思考的問題。"],["李主任委員進勇：是的，的確罷免案的進行需要經費的支撐，但是因為罷免案，我們在編概算的時候，沒有辦法預料它到底有沒有或者是有幾個案子，因此往例都是在罷免案成立的時候，我們向行政院來申請第二預備金動支。"],["吳委員琪銘：第二預備金才6,700萬，也不夠啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：可能行政院這邊會跟立法院來磋商，請立法院也能夠支持。"],["吳委員琪銘：好的，因為本席看到這個預算，看到未來的經費比較擔憂，未來整個罷免案在實施，經費來源還是有問題，也是窒礙難行啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：這個是法定必須支出的事項，而且權責是在中央政府，所以我們希望這個問題能夠大家圓滿的解決。"],["吳委員琪銘：好的，主委辛苦了，謝謝主委，你請回。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員琪銘：我請陸委會。"],["主席：請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：主委好。主委，我看到我們所編的預算，兩岸中介事務的預算高達2億5,957萬，也較去年成長了40%，本席比較想了解的是，現在港澳這一邊的辦事處有沒有正常在運作？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，我們在香港目前沒有派駐同仁，在澳門有兩位同仁，我們處理港澳業務都有一個後端的監督小組來處理港澳的政策，目前還正常運作，我們勉力來維持我們駐館的業務，我們希望能夠服務我們臺、港的民眾，特別是國人赴港、澳都有一個辦事處可以服務他們，同時我們沒有撤館的原因，也是增加我們在香港、澳門很多投資企業的一些信心，讓他們能夠在當地持續的安居樂業。"],["吳委員琪銘：香港跟澳門，澳門有兩個同仁，香港沒有，那麼香港的辦事處還存在嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：有，我們有四十幾位的雇員仍然在處理各種文書驗證以及急難救助，還有證照核發等相關業務，還在正常進行。也跟委員報告，我們這兩年香港的觀光客人數不是第一位就是第二位，也有賴我們駐港人員全力的投入。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為不管是臺商也好，還是觀光客也好，那邊還是要有臺灣必要的辦事處在那邊協助，這是本席比較關心的，畢竟臺灣在香港、澳門那邊還是有很多人。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：能正常運作才是我們所期待的，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員琪銘：謝謝主委。現在請海洋委員會。"],["主席：請管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：主委，現在海洋四法已具體地推展，本席還是很肯定，因為海巡以及海洋委員會很多業務的推動也是需要主委帶動。"],["管主任委員碧玲：感謝。"],["吳委員琪銘：畢竟我們對岸有很多非法漁船在臺灣海峽附近，不管是挑釁還是從事非法的捕漁，海巡都要秉公維持我們的權利，所以海巡非常辛苦，這點本席是非常肯定。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員琪銘：本席也非常關心你們的預算，如無法解凍，未來對整個海巡的推動都會窒礙難行，所以今天可以看到召委排這個解凍案，我認為這一定要趕快解決，不然後面還有半年的時間，你根本就沒有辦法去推動，所以在這個部分本席是非常肯定的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們到8月的時候就維持不下去了。"],["吳委員琪銘：請問主委，未來解凍後是不是能推動得更加順利？"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝委員支持。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝，感謝主委。","現在請客委會。"],["主席：請客委會。"],["古主任委員秀妃：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：主委好。主委，我看客家語言流失、下滑的幅度非常大，針對客家的語言未來要如何向下扎根，一些小朋友就要讓他去熟悉我們的客家語言，這是本席比較注重的。因為包括本席那邊，我們新北市每一年都在辦桐花祭，會來桐花祭的人口非常多，尤其是結合客家的一些社團，包括客屬會還有很多客家族群，讓他們可以來設攤，也可以在那邊推動，所以未來的客家語言，我認為還是要透過一些戲劇、社團共同讓客家人的下一代能接觸客家語言，不然流失的速度非常快，今天在外面大家都沒人在講客語，包括客家人也不教他的下一代客家的語言，這是未來我們要去重視的。"],["古主任委員秀妃：是，很同意委員的說法，現在流失率這麼嚴重，確實我們很多經費都是在學校的教育上，從幼兒園或國小端的教學，這個我們相當重視，同時也觸及到社會跟家庭，但也還是沒有辦法全面，這個我們承認，這個確實在整體上還是需要用很大的力量去推動。"],["吳委員琪銘：所以我們各項的推廣，因為小朋友有學習的能力，只要他們多接觸相信未來客家語言會推動得更加順利，好不好？"],["古主任委員秀妃：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝主委。"],["古主任委員秀妃：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員琪銘：謝謝，因為時間到了。"],["主席：請黃建賓委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","高金素梅","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","黃捷","王鴻薇","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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你也認同嘛所以我們今天要看到陸委會的法證業務預算凍結20%條件為三個月內提出"},{"start":68.5,"end":70.303,"text":"兩岸協調監督條例研議進度報告應該雖然是期限內報告但不僅是陳述研議的歷程為明確提出法條的草案或版本"},{"start":84.302,"end":99.382,"text":"的表層所以我想要問你說自從103年起已經大家都在關注這件事情陸委會到今天仍無明確的法案的明定的版本請問這樣是什麼理由"},{"start":102.601,"end":120.615,"text":"跟委員報告我們在今天早上的書面報告也有很清楚的表述就是兩岸協議監督條例在當年2016年的時候那麼各黨團也有提出相關的版本但是由於爭點甚多那麼當時候未達成共識"},{"start":123.317,"end":139.228,"text":"另外一方面就是那時候的兩岸關係啊也不是在處理這個做焦點那我們基於在2019年元月二號那麼習五條提出兩制台灣方案我們認為有關於民主協商的這個對台灣的統戰這個比較嚴重"},{"start":142.33,"end":157.684,"text":"所以我們有優先去推動兩條例第五條之三有十項這個民電的條文來處理涉及到政治議題的協商我們建立了高標準高門檻的民主監督法制"},{"start":158.385,"end":178.947,"text":"至於您剛剛提到的非涉及政治議題的兩岸協議監督條例以我們的做法因為我們把最重要的核心的法治工作做完了那其他的部分我們認為按照現行的兩岸條例第五條規定那麼過去呢我們行政部門跟立法部門都已經完成了"},{"start":179.508,"end":188.73,"text":"二十六項的協議的審查跟被查的程序那麼我們也有很多的經驗所以暫無自愛所以我們會認為現階段兩岸協議監督條例暫無它的急迫性跟必要性但是我們也認為因為這個涉及國會監督的權限"},{"start":202.293,"end":222.369,"text":"幾位 幾位我要問你的東西不是你要問你的東西你回我不是回答的是你其他的業務我們問的是說因為我看到你的報告中還有沒有看到任何具體法案內容的草案還有就是說請持續以行政演繹"},{"start":227.333,"end":232.879,"text":"言商 難道只會是言喻再言商再協商再言商我看到裡面的事這樣子不像你現在說的我們時間可限因為我們就"},{"start":241.889,"end":246.331,"text":"6分鐘6個單位我問你已經超過多少分鐘了你報告的我要問你但是你的資料沒有齊全啊所以說要版本解凍但是你講的跟你你給我們的報告裡面多寫說在延伤在延益所以我們沒有看到啊我們給你3個月但是你講的"},{"start":265.462,"end":275.806,"text":"你要我們提出版本我們有研議我們認為現階段先沒有急後期跟必要性明確的版本啦不要一直在研議研商已經三個月了沒有 隊長他跟我們講是請我們研議並不是要我們提出來所以我們一直認為如果有需要的話"},{"start":283.489,"end":311.204,"text":"應該是由立法院從國會的角度來提審查我們由行政部門來說來審查的強度這個似乎已經第九屆第十屆都有其他委員提出到現在為止我們黨部很重視這個也教你提出但是你的報告裡面就是言商言議在言議所以已經三個月了我們認為現行的法制作業以足以來處理這一塊"},{"start":314.146,"end":329.6,"text":"所以說我們今天是要來解凍你的法案你沒有報告你的法案也沒有寫我們的法案這樣就叫我們怎麼樣給你解凍呢所以說如果是這樣的案如果委員要提出我們尊重我們也提供我們的意見"},{"start":331.301,"end":339.225,"text":"對不對 是不是這樣子的意思所以我覺得你真的沒有提出我們要求的我們是要求的解凍的案你就是要把解凍的案來去做報告說明還有說有明確的不是說你講其他的業務其他業務給你三天三夜講不完我們的看法以及我們整體的評估作業"},{"start":353.573,"end":362.841,"text":"同時我們也跟委員報告但是我們要求的看法要求的我們需要的你沒有去講啊我們問A要叫你解剖我們本息你要給我們提出行政院版本的兩岸協議監督條例我們經過非常認真的評估認為現階段沒有急迫性跟必要性如果委員你要來提出的話我們會尊重我們也會到時候"},{"start":377.153,"end":390.782,"text":"提供我們的意見所以我們要求的就是你認為不要就是不用解凍我們認為現階段沒有急迫性跟必要性所以這樣你就是不要我們要求的你覺得不要所以我們就不用解凍但是你們交付我們評估的我們很認真報數我聽起來是這樣好"},{"start":394.444,"end":414.128,"text":"所以因為時間的關係但是呢因為我們有六個單位我們主席一定要讓我們最少要問到三個吧不能說六分鐘就是就變成一個單位沒有解釋清楚沒有做清楚就沒有了好我們接下來我想要請教一下我們的海洋委員會的我們的主委"},{"start":423.407,"end":429.031,"text":"委員好好 主委好因為我們的業務費預算凍結了30%了就是等於說我們的海洋政策的整體推動 欠缺效果我們的海委會內執行的計畫協同不足等於是質疑所以其實我們解凍報告卻有說"},{"start":447.506,"end":454.091,"text":"參與會議等空泛的文字作為就是效果的呈現所以這些會議的實質產出為何如何促成具體法案或個跨部會的政策的推動是否有量化的指標或者比如說新進計劃的執行或者政策執行的實效還有縮短的效率等等所以可以說明一下嗎"},{"start":477.069,"end":495.889,"text":"各位委員報告如果說我們沒有在8月以前完成解凍的話我們大概所有的包括業務費跟一般基本的運作到8月份的時候我們大概就會遇到非常非常重大的困難我們現在就是有辦法維持到8月份那8月份以後就會遇到非常重大的困難"},{"start":496.67,"end":519.022,"text":"所以我們很希望說能夠盡速給予我們來解凍那因為到八月份的時候各項的包括本會包括所有的附屬機關我們的執行率都會達到95%以上所以在這個部分我們有時間上的急迫性因此很希望我們這一次的解凍能夠得到委員的支持"},{"start":520.33,"end":535.351,"text":"所以我們今天才要來說來審查來解凍希望說我們提出有具體的嘛這樣子我們才能是解凍因為給我們就是三天三天讓我們去看"},{"start":536.192,"end":563.892,"text":"所以呢我們如果資料不齊全我們就問的時間又那麼短缺所以我們希望說開會的理由還有說的介紹的依據還有說我們那麼認真大家就是希望把它解凍嘛我們一直來我都幫你額略了全部會你就不會去講一些有的沒有的認真去做事的人所以我們就監督在野黨的委員就是無法要"},{"start":565.333,"end":565.553,"text":"各位委員"},{"start":585.214,"end":591.015,"text":"舉一個例子 譬如說我們東沙的同仁他如果要放假的話我們現在是給他們搭飛機回來那如果說我們沒有如期來解凍的話呢他們搭飛機回來就馬上會遇到困難了那這就會影響他們休假的 是啊所以我們現在就是要積極來解凍嘛我們的書面報告 朝委才安排就是一天就六個案就是因為就是要搓營銷飛車了嘛還不是要想要解凍嗎"},{"start":616.142,"end":624.385,"text":"你這樣講我抗議喔不是 我們解凍就是要一起嘛所以說想要更清楚我們才會說我們要讓這個費用趕快解凍讓大家去做嘛好 再來我們就問接下來說我們的海巡業務費這樣子的凍結也是30%我們報告裡面就是說完成"},{"start":641.451,"end":665.139,"text":"演训练的就是很多的场次但是我们办理教育训练的装备添购但我们必须要追问的是说我们教育训练场次是否是人数是否的那个预算还有就是规模有没有相符训练后的成效或者评估有这样子的报告"},{"start":665.919,"end":667.44,"text":"因為我們要解凍就要了解嘛所以說我們的裝備要購買還有說公開採購的程序有沒有時機交付投入的這樣子的運用所以因為我們"},{"start":681.369,"end":698.223,"text":"報告裡面是沒有看到我們的採購都是公開採購我們一定都走公開採購的程序因為目前報告裡面沒有看到走證的資料所以說想要再確認有沒有具體的因為委員關心了以後我們有準備一個我們公開採購的項目的報告我們會後再給委員"},{"start":704.628,"end":712.584,"text":"好這樣就麻煩我們主委再來最後一分鐘我想要問一下我們的那個中選會我們請"},{"start":727.182,"end":741.287,"text":"我想要請教一下我們有針對就是裡面就一個小項而已基本行政作業維護就是維持費就是說一般事務費編列了759萬4千多其中凍結了10%但是當解凍報告裡面聲稱說以"},{"start":755.59,"end":777.315,"text":"預算編列原則與節約的規定使用但是我們在說明具體的時候沒有看到就是支出的明細還有績效的效果我們看到的就是依據你寫的最大的目標就是說列為合理編列就是合理的"},{"start":778.356,"end":792.032,"text":"編列合理就是這四個字就可以能解凍就是形同我們就是就形式的審查而已因為我們這個案子其中就是有我們的有七"},{"start":794.295,"end":800.438,"text":"75萬我們只有結凍說75萬的就是選務的設備精進或者系統的就是資訊的系統安全更新等重要的業務但是我們沒有看到具體的投入啦所以這個部分我們希望說我們的中選會這邊有比較具體一點我們才知道因為我們已經在今天"},{"start":822.148,"end":826.891,"text":"我們要給大家的是三個月來去寫解凍的報告我們給各個部會是三個月但是今天我們給我們的資料只有三天還有我們要有教授只有六分鐘來去問各個部會"},{"start":844.542,"end":852.486,"text":"但是我們看到一張紙就是一億兩張兩億三張三億所以我們政府的預算就是這樣子審查的嗎所以我們希望各個部會真真的這個都是都是我們血汗錢我們解凍不應該刑事審查所以是應該要有效率的展現各部會應該是依據我們要求的就是"},{"start":874.395,"end":880.999,"text":"凍結的 要有具體的來去說明所以我們已經沒時間了大家都在加班來去看了但是看你們要給我們的資料就讓我們很失望所以說因為時間的關係我們希望說大家就是有具體的再來給我們 因為今天就一天這樣子去解決 我覺得真的我們在把關在審查我們的預算真的是太"},{"start":903.677,"end":907.558,"text":"我們在做社團的在每一個社團要去爭取經費兩萬塊就要去說明還要去報告但是我們一張說明就一億我們沒辦法接受這個部分我們再請我們各部會再來去真真的是把所有的計畫真的具體讓我們了解讓我們真的是知識才不會造成後面"},{"start":933.686,"end":944.999,"text":"再花一筆錢這樣子到最後變成什麼再來怪像怪我們沒有審查還是怪你們亂花所以這個就是我的要求以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":526,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（10時32分）謝謝主席，有請陸委會主委。"],["主席：請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：主委好。今天針對幾個議題請教主委。學生交作業是天經地義的，而老師要給學生打分數是不是要先看到作業？但如果學生不想交作業，卻要求老師給及格分數，甚至是滿分，若主委是老師的話，你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：當然不合理。"],["麥委員玉珍：當然不合理，對不對？主委也認同嘛！今天我們凍結陸委會的法政業務預算20%，條件為三個月內提出兩岸協議監督條例研議進度報告，這雖然是要你們在期限內提報告，但不能僅止於陳述研議歷程，而沒明確提出法條草案或版本。請教主委，從103年起，這就是大家所關注的事，但陸委會迄今仍無明確的法案版本，請問理由為何？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，我們在今天早上的書面報告中很清楚表述，兩岸協議監督條例在2016年時，各黨團也有提出相關版本，由於爭點甚多，當時未達成共識。另外，那時候的兩岸關係也不是以處理這個為焦點。基於2019年元月2日習五條提出兩制臺灣方案，我們認為有關民主協商及對臺灣統戰這兩點比較嚴重，所以我們優先推動修正兩岸條例第五條之三條文，共十項，明定處理涉及到政治議題的協商，建立了高標準、高門檻的民主監督法制。至於您剛剛提到的非涉及政治議題的兩岸協議監督條例，以我們的作法來說，因為我們把最重要的核心法制工作做完了，故其他部分，我們認為按照現行兩岸條例第五條規定辦理。過去行政部門跟立法部門已經完成了二十六項協議的審查與備查程序，我們也有很多經驗，所以尚無窒礙之處。我們認為現階段暫無制訂兩岸協議監督條例之急迫性與必要性，且我們也認為事涉國會監督權限……"],["麥委員玉珍：主委，我問你東，結果你回我西，還回答我其他業務？因為我在報告中並沒有看到法案的具體內容和草案……"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告……"],["麥委員玉珍：僅說持續與行政單位研議、研商，難道你們只會研議和研商嗎？然後再協商、再研商？我看到的是這樣，並不是你剛剛所說的。"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員，不是這樣的，我們很認真在評估……"],["麥委員玉珍：我的發言時間有限，6分鐘要問6個單位，現在光問你就超過多少分鐘了？我根據你報告的內容來問你，問題是你的資料並不齊全！當初本席要求你們提出版本後再解凍預算，但你講的及所提出的報告都寫說在協商、在研議，所以我們並沒有看到！我們給你三個月時間，但是你講的……"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員要我們提出版本，這件事我們有在研議，只是我們認為現階段並沒有急迫性與必要性。"],["麥委員玉珍：要提出明確的版本，不要一直在研議、研商，已經三個月了！"],["邱主任委員垂正：院長是請我們研議，並不是要我們提出版本。況且我們也認為如果有需要的話，應該由立法院從國會的角度來提版本審查，行政部門有行政部門審查的強度，我們認為這個會比較……"],["麥委員玉珍：第9屆、第10屆都有其他委員提出版本，而我們黨團很重視這件事，所以請主委提出版本，但是報告就是只有研商、研議、再研議，已經三個月了……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們認為現行的法制作業已足以處理這一塊……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們今天是要來處理預算解凍案，可是你沒有報告法案，也沒有法案版本……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們非常認真在評估……"],["麥委員玉珍：這叫我們怎麼同意解凍？如果是這樣的話……"],["邱主任委員垂正：如果委員要提出的話，我們尊重，我們也會提供我們的意見。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你的意思就是不用解凍，對不對？是不是這意思？你沒有依照我們的要求來提出……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們很用心在評估……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們提案要你依據解凍案的要求來提報告跟說明，並提出明確的版本，而不是講其他業務。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們已經講過對兩岸協議監督條例的看法，以整體的評估作業，同時我們也跟委員報告……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是我們所要求的、所需要的，你並沒有回答！我們問A，給你解凍……"],["邱主任委員垂正：沒有，委員要我們提出行政院版本的兩岸協議監督條例，我們經過非常認真的評估，認為現階段沒有急迫性跟必要性！但如果委員要提出的話，我們尊重，到時候我們也會提供我們的意見。"],["麥委員玉珍：針對我們所要求的，你認為沒有這個必要，也就是不用解凍？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們認為現階段沒有急迫性跟必要性。"],["麥委員玉珍：你沒有達到我們的要求，你覺得不需要，所以就不用解凍？"],["邱主任委員垂正：但是委員交付要我們評估的，我們很認真在做……"],["麥委員玉珍：我聽起來就是這樣。因為時間關係，加上今天有6個單位，所以最少要讓我問到3個，而且不能只有6分鐘，否則就只能問一個單位，而且在還沒有解釋清楚前時間就沒有了。","接下來我想請教海洋委員會管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：主委好。海委會業務費被凍結30%，因為海洋政策整體推動欠缺效果，海委會對計畫執行不足，引發質疑。但海委會所提出的解凍報告卻僅提到參與會議等空泛文字，卻不見參與這些會議的實質產出為何？如何促成具體法案或跨部會的政策推動？是否有量化指標，或新計畫的執行成效，乃至規模縮小後的效率等等？可以請主委說明一下嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，如果我們沒有在8月以前完成解凍的話，那麼包括業務費跟一般基本運作到8月份時，將遭遇非常非常重大的困難。我們現在僅能維持到8月份，至於8月份以後就會遇到非常重大的困難，所以我們很希望能夠儘速解凍。到8月份時，包括本會、包括所有附屬機關的執行率都會達到95%以上，因此我們有時間上的急迫性，很希望這一次的解凍能夠得到委員的支持。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們今天審查解凍案……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們知道委員一直以都相當支持我們。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以才希望你們能提出具體成效，我們才能同意解凍。其實我們只有三天時間，要我們三天內看完所有報告，如果資料不齊全，發言時間又那麼短，所以我希望你們參與會議的理由、績效的依據……大家之所以那麼認真，就是希望案子能夠解凍。一直以來對於海委會我都是鼓勵……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我知道，很謝謝委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：你是認真做事的人，不會去講一些有的沒的。在野黨委員站在監督的立場做事，可是我們想看的資料卻不齊全，所以主委是不是可以把相關資料提供給我們？這畢竟是預算案，所以你們講的……現在是解凍案……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我舉一個例子向委員說明……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們希望能有具體資料，再麻煩你。"],["管主任委員碧玲：舉一個例子說明，譬如駐守東沙的同仁如果放假的話，現在是讓他們搭飛機回來。但如果預算無法如期來解凍的話，他們搭飛機回來這件事就會馬上遇到困難，也會影響他們能不能完整休假……"],["麥委員玉珍：是啊，所以現在就是為了要積極解凍……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的書面報告……"],["麥委員玉珍：召委才會安排，而且一天就排了六個單位，就像在坐雲霄飛車一樣，目的不就是為了解凍？"],["主席：你這樣講，我抗議喔！"],["麥委員玉珍：不是，我們解凍就是要一起嘛，所以想要更清楚……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們其實也有感受到……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們才會說我們要讓這個費用趕快解凍，讓大家去做嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，再來我們就問一下海巡業務費，這樣子的凍結也是30%，報告裡面……"],["管主任委員碧玲：這實在是歷史上最高的凍結數字……"],["麥委員玉珍：完成演、訓練很多場次，但是關於辦理教育訓練的裝備添購，我們必須要追問的是，教育訓練場次的人數是否符合預算編列，還有規模有沒有相符，以及訓練後的成效或者評估，有這樣子的報告嗎？因為我們要解凍，就要了解嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們的裝備要購買，是否符合公開採購的程序，並且有沒有實際投入這樣子的運用，因為我們在報告裡面是沒有看到，所以才會……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的採購都是公開採購，我們一定都走公開採購的程序。"],["麥委員玉珍：OK，因為目前報告裡面沒有看到這些佐證的資料，所以想要再確認有沒有具體的效果。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們有準備，因為委員關心了以後，我們有準備我們公開採購這些項目的報告，我們會後再給委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，這樣就麻煩主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：再來，最後1分鐘，我想要問一下中選會。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：好。我想要請教一下，針對裡面的一個小項，「基本行政工作維持費」中「一般事務費」編列了七百五十九萬四千多元，其中凍結了10%，但是解凍報告裡面宣稱，以預算編列原則與節約的規定使用，但是我們在說明的時候，沒有看到具體支出的明細，還有績效的效果，我們看到的就是依據你寫的最大的目標，就是編列合理，「編列合理」這四個字就可以解凍，形同我們只是形式審查而已，因為這個案子其中我們有75萬的凍結，有關選務的設備精進或者資訊的系統安全更新等重要的業務，但是我們沒有看到具體的投入，所以這個部分，我們希望中選會這邊有比較具體一點的說明，我們才能知道，因為我們給大家三個月寫解凍的報告，我們給各個部會是三個月，但是給我們的資料只有3天，還有我們只有6分鐘去問各個部會，但是我們看到一張紙就是1億、兩張2億、三張3億，所以我們政府的預算就是這樣子審查的嗎？這個真的都是我們血汗錢，我們解凍不應該形式審查，應該要有效率的展現，各部會應該依據我們要求的，凍結的部分要具體的說明，我們已經沒時間了，大家都在加班去看了，但是看你們給我們的資料，就讓我們很失望。因為時間的關係，我們希望大家就是有具體的說明再來給我們，因為今天就1天這樣子去解決，我覺得我們在把關、在審查預算真的是太糊弄、隨便這樣。我們在做社團的，每一個社團要去爭取經費，兩萬塊就要去說明，還要去報告，但是你們一張說明就1億，我們沒辦法接受，這個部分再請我們各部會真正把所有的計畫具體讓我們了解，讓我們真的是支持，才不會造成後面再花一筆錢，這樣子到最後變成什麼？再來怪誰？怪我們沒有審查，還是怪你們亂花，所以這個就是我的要求。以上，謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：我不用回答嗎？"],["麥委員玉珍：你將書面給我。"],["李主任委員進勇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","高金素梅","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","黃捷","王鴻薇","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算解凍案；二、處理114年度中央政府\n總預算有關不當黨產處理委員會預算解凍案；三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關中央\n選舉委員會及所屬預算解凍案；四、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關大陸委員會預算解凍案；\n五、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關客家委員會及所屬預算解凍案","agenda_id":"1144901_00004"}}},{"id":"161204","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161204","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d52dc32b9366ca0c2e835f3e47612ac34e98c36c5eeff8411ba0c0883a82e0276fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:21:27 - 10:32:34","影片長度":"00:11:07","會議時間":"2025-05-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算解凍案。二、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關不當黨產處理委員會預算解凍案。三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關中央選舉委員會及所屬預算解凍案。四、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關大陸委員會預算解凍案。五、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關客家委員會及所屬預算解凍案。\n\n【5月12日（星期一）、14日（星期三）、15日（星期四）三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-12","start_time":"2025-05-12T10:21:27+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-12T10:32:34+08:00","duration":667,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.469093750000001,"end":5.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.66721875,"end":7.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.64159375,"end":9.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.922843750000002,"end":17.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.98596875,"end":72.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.64846875,"end":74.36534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.36534375000001,"end":113.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.74909375,"end":76.67721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.63034375000001,"end":106.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.66409375,"end":106.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.59971875000001,"end":165.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.58534375,"end":125.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.34471875000001,"end":125.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.43534375000002,"end":176.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.98221875000002,"end":180.22221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.91846875000002,"end":183.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.32346875000002,"end":180.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.86346875,"end":181.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.96034375000002,"end":200.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.54221875000002,"end":187.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.62034375000002,"end":197.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.03784375,"end":200.87721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.87721875000003,"end":200.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.92784375000002,"end":200.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.96159375000002,"end":202.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.23971875,"end":206.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.56409375,"end":211.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.87971875000002,"end":215.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.81159375000001,"end":227.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.40471875,"end":232.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.36596875,"end":234.17159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.00284375,"end":239.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.89221875,"end":242.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.36846875,"end":244.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.87034375000002,"end":246.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.43534375000002,"end":251.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.92409375000003,"end":252.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.73409375000003,"end":254.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.60284375,"end":257.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.59846875,"end":260.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.65721875,"end":259.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.59784375000004,"end":272.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.35159375,"end":281.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.16534375000003,"end":274.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.46409375,"end":289.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.81346875,"end":287.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.12096875000003,"end":294.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.63534375,"end":291.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.35221875,"end":302.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.74409375000005,"end":297.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.55346875000004,"end":304.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.44346875,"end":306.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.87346875000003,"end":355.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.77284375000005,"end":363.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.56909375000004,"end":367.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.61909375000005,"end":379.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.10721875,"end":376.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.81971875000005,"end":391.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.53534375000004,"end":396.66096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.20159375000003,"end":395.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.30659375000005,"end":403.07346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謝謝主席 還有會主委有請好 請館處委"},{"start":17.097,"end":42.653,"text":"委員好主委早安我們之前討論海巡屬雷格凍結的預算其實裡面有一個非常重要的理由就是在於有關於人力的增補我們都知道海巡其實這幾年幾乎變成所謂的第二海軍擔負海防的重任那您在各式各樣的報告新聞也好其實也都在在強調海巡的重要性甚至我們在上個禮拜通過的紀念日及節日條例裡面我們都還寫海巡節對不對"},{"start":45.695,"end":61.631,"text":"所以說我們都非常重視海巡同仁的這個工作待遇喔那我看了一下你們這個解凍的專案報告的一些內容當然啦就是說有談要如何來增加這個海巡人力的增補嘛當然之前我們提質疑並且討論的時候就有講嘛就是說"},{"start":62.772,"end":80.883,"text":"你本來就有規劃從111年開始用五年為期要逐年來增補一萬三千多名的員額缺口嘛是不是但是按照現在來講是補足而不是有一萬多個缺口是一萬多人啊但是還有缺口對不對但是按照你的執行我更正一下按照你的那個數字111年還有571位112年848位113年1272位所以這個缺口不但沒有縮小反而越來越大"},{"start":91.73,"end":113.198,"text":"所以我們那時候才提了所謂的預算凍結案就希望說你有提出一套完整的配套措施可以來改善這樣的問題嘛對不對那我看了你專案報告裡面的一些內容當然有提了一些方法但是沒有把具體的數字寫出來本期是覺得比較可惜的你們預期啊這個114年你們可以補到多少人這個缺口有沒有辦法縮小你們心中預期的數字是多少"},{"start":113.758,"end":134.592,"text":"公務員報告 我們的原額的缺口其中有一個部分 440個原額是即將要由國防部 由義務役來給我們補足以海巡目前來講的話 最主要的人力的缺口是在岸巡所以岸巡主要都是軍職 而且都是義務役"},{"start":135.493,"end":161.625,"text":"因此在義務役全面徵兵恢復了以後我們全面招募的情況之下我們已經取得了有440個元額可以來挹注我們海巡那這個部分對於缺口是很有幫助的那另外就是說我們今年開始的加薪也已經很明顯的看到我們甚至於有一些離職的同仁都很希望能夠回流"},{"start":162.165,"end":176.233,"text":"所以今年在這個數字我們希望會有比較好的成果所以你現在按你111年的五年計劃嘛就是你目標達成13,091名的原額目標嘛對不對那今年是114年你現在的數字是多少"},{"start":177.045,"end":201.643,"text":"我們現有是一萬一千七百多名一萬一千七嘛 所以還差一千多對不對一千 接近兩千左右嘛然後妳剛剛講補四百嘛那剩下一千五呢但是我們的離退率會下降然後我們今年也會有招募的成果那今年到目前為止的招募的成果我目前還在等海巡做一個記報過來是不是那個署長今天來你們旁邊幕僚可不可以要說明一下好 來 我們請署長說明"},{"start":204.015,"end":217.894,"text":"根據近三年的自營士兵禁用我們是逐年增加的那退損的部分人員逐年減少也就是說我們現在招募的成效是比退損的是好的"},{"start":218.314,"end":240.646,"text":"那所以預估我們未來的這個人員補足部分啦是再過一兩年我們就可以全部把它補足另外這中間有一部分的是那個艦艇的艦隊分組艦艇的人員那這個部分是根據他交艦的情形期程不同那我們會跟人事長做其實我要聽的就是實際上的數字嘛你115年的目標是13091嘛那你114年會是多少115年會是多少其實就這樣子而已啊你們有辦法給出這樣的數字嗎"},{"start":247.792,"end":273.793,"text":"關乎預算能不能順利解凍 因為我們就是要明確嘛其實就是監督嘛 對不對來 主委 114年的話預計是多少我們希望你剛剛有明確講一個400多 我覺得很OK但是其他的咧我們以111年的退損跟113年的退損來講的話我們的退損已經減少了20%你不要再跟我講別人 你跟我講那個到底會補多少就好"},{"start":274.193,"end":282.896,"text":"好你如果現在因為你說你要等季報對不對你趕快回去蒐集一下但你趕快再因為我們今天開會還要討論解凍趕快把書面補上來好不好我想除了這440個元我們的離退率有改善就是你剛剛講的離退率的結論我們算一個數字來對你要算一個簡單的數字嘛也就是說114年是多少115年可以達到13,091嘛"},{"start":294.36,"end":306.093,"text":"我們當然目標值是13,148但是我們希望能夠補足這個剩下來的對嘛 我就是要知道你逐年補打算補多少 能補到多少我數字最後會算給委員好 再來我要問第二個問題是"},{"start":308.756,"end":330.374,"text":"現在不管是軍職或者是警職其實在待遇的部分其實都是用授權條款的方式來處理但我相信管主委也知道這過去我在質詢的時候也提過現在大院裡面有在討論這個軍人待遇條例要做修正也就是說所有的志願役未來可能都會一致來做大幅的加薪當然就是可以強化軍職人員入這個大家投身軍旅的這個待遇嘛"},{"start":330.814,"end":354.717,"text":"那我想這個對於軍職人員來說是很大的一個振奮對不對那問題又要來了嘛因為海巡狀況比較特殊嘛我軍警文都有那我們現在先以內外情來分大概外情部分以軍職跟警職為主如果這個軍人待遇條例順利的在大院修正通過是不是軍職的待遇會大幅上升加兩萬加三萬等等會有一個調升那請問警職海巡會不會出現相對剝奪感"},{"start":356.034,"end":379.427,"text":"跟委員報告我們在僅職的福利的部分其實晚期我們也已經爭取到兩個加級很有可能要被核定那因為現在正在走程序我就比較不便對外來說明那除此以外呢我們還有一個僅僅加級的部分是三十幾年沒有調整過那這個部分也是我們下個階段要來跟行政總署溝通的一個很重要的一個品"},{"start":379.867,"end":401.102,"text":"所以我現在要問你的問題就是比你講的要更深水區因為過去在授權的時候你行政院之前也幫志願役調過戰鬥加急對不對但因為他沒有辦法一體施用就產生了很多混亂現在是有可能我們在這個部分有進展有可能會有你今天聽我把話講完就是說現在有可能是軍人待遇條例會有一個明定所有志願役可能加2萬或3萬這樣子的一個數字對不對"},{"start":403.183,"end":431.849,"text":"其實各種家籍加起來以後我們過去相當程度是所有各種不同的身份各種不同類型的家籍加總以後相當程度是有達到某種程度的平衡你現在的意思是說你譬如說以行政院他們自己調的對不對你們互相處理可以達到一個平衡但現在是有立法對不對所以立法的強度更高然後針對軍人會更高這對你海巡軍職人員是有幫忙的但是海巡警職人員那我們是不是也要比照辦理我現在問你這個的意見"},{"start":433.314,"end":453.761,"text":"很難說比照辦理因為加擠的項目不一樣所以剛剛我跟委員講的有兩項是用在緊實同仁身上的那我們晚近的溝通已經有成果目前在走程序那第三項就是緊情加擠我們如果能夠在緊情加擠的部分三十幾年沒有調也再度調整的話相當程度之間的落差就比較不會差"},{"start":454.841,"end":475.449,"text":"你的意思是說你這三項對不對按照你的試算結果加上去之後會跟也許通過的軍人待遇條例會一樣嗎會對稱嗎目前我們在海上的待遇的總體跟在陸域待遇的總體海上就比較高了我不是問你海上跟陸上是軍職跟警職的待遇會不會差很多海上就是警職陸上就是軍職居多所以你認為說不會出現相對剝奪感嗎但是前提是你剛剛講那三項加薪要通過嘛對不對"},{"start":482.091,"end":487.393,"text":"目前有兩項已經有共識在走進去另外一項緊急加急我們持續再溝通那你這三項我簡單做個小結論海上加急已經調過了海上加急的部分我簡單做個結論就是說你現在"},{"start":502.279,"end":523.767,"text":"在你可以授權的範圍內你做了若干的努力對不對所以可能有幾項有達成共識但是還有一項緊緊加緊我要問的問題是這三項加起來跟可能通過軍人待遇你認為不會有落差我再跟你確認一次跟主席報告我們本來喔在海上就會比在陸上所以再多一點是是是是你這樣好那那我再來就要再追問你這三項最後可以拍板上路的時間是什麼"},{"start":526.434,"end":546.31,"text":"我們公開行政程序前兩項目前在走行政程序那因為他跟軍職的專業的這個家綺呢要一起來處理所以到時候可能就看人總走這個行政院的程序因為我是覺得你們如果對基層弟兄要好其實也沒有必要什麼保密到家但是齊成其實是最重要的嘛"},{"start":546.53,"end":571.068,"text":"我要抓的是時間是什麼主要談的跟國防部在一起的是戰航管家級戰航管家級會調因為今天的時間比較短你可能會很難講清楚一樣這個比照剛剛你有一個缺額的逐年補足的這樣子的一個KPI這是第一個第二個你相對來講幫海巡的軍警職如何來提升待遇如何來做平衡他的期程是什麼好不好你一樣會後你要補報告來喔"},{"start":572.789,"end":595.002,"text":"會 但是我跟委員報告我們海巡整體來講目前是處在士氣非常高昂的階段所以福利是一個問題沒有錯他們都知道長官有盡力在幫他們爭取而且委員也都很支持能夠提升待遇我相信不管是你做委還有會主委或是我們做立法委我們都會支持但是我就希望這件事情明確然後它可以落地嘛"},{"start":595.342,"end":614.418,"text":"對不對因為我之所以這麼急著要這份資料是萬一軍人待遇條例通過萬一出現落差然後你行政機關沒有辦法用授權條款去處理這個問題的時候我可能我這邊就要啟動警察這邊我就要再修法啦對不對但到底你能不能做到我會給行政機關時間嘛但是你要明確的可以講出你到底調生了多少哪些人受惠了"},{"start":614.778,"end":636.329,"text":"平不平衡有沒有辦法讓警察人員也一樣得到好的待遇就這樣而已最主要是合理化最主要是合理化而不是說比較啊剝奪感啊我比較不希望大家到像這裡去思考數額時間好不好你這個會後提供你如果覺得說現在壓力很大你要給我個密件你讓我自己要知道也可以好不好但是你要讓我知道"},{"start":637.009,"end":656.459,"text":"這樣我們才知道未來我們要不要透過修法的方式來解決這個問題還是大家可以透過我們就是詢答透過溝通的方式就讓海巡的待遇提升方向都是一樣的好不好這個請主委多用點心因為我覺得把待遇弄好其實是補足一萬三千多這個讓你可以達標一萬三千多人最重要的事情嘛主委應該不反對這樣說吧好那就請主委趕快提供資料可以嗎好謝謝好請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":452,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時21分）謝謝主席，海委會主委有請。"],["主席：請管主委。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委早安。我們之前討論海巡署一個凍結的預算，其實裡面有一個非常重要的理由就是有關於人力的增補，我們都知道海巡其實這幾年幾乎變成所謂的第二海軍，擔負海防的重任。您在各式各樣的報告、新聞也好，也都再再強調海巡的重要性，甚至我們在上個禮拜通過的紀念日及節日實施條例裡面都還有寫海巡節，對不對？所以我們都非常重視海巡同仁的工作待遇。我看了一下你們解凍專案報告的一些內容，當然有談要如何增加海巡人力的增補，但之前我們提質疑並且討論的時候就有講，你本來就有規劃從111年開始，以5年為期，要逐年增補一萬三千多名的員額缺口，是不是？但是按照現在來講……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是補足，而不是有一萬多個缺口。"],["牛委員煦庭：是一萬多人，但是還有缺口，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，要補足。對，有缺口。"],["牛委員煦庭：按照你的數字，111年還有571位，112年848位，113年1,272位，這個缺口不但沒有縮小反而越來越大，所以我們那時候才提了所謂的預算凍結案，就是希望你提出一套完整的配套措施，可以來改善這樣的問題嘛，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我看了你專案報告裡面的一些內容，當然有提了一些方法，但是沒有把具體的數字寫出來，本席是覺得比較可惜的，你們預期114年可以補到多少人？這個缺口有沒有辦法縮小？你們心中預期的數字是多少？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們員額的缺口其中有一個部分440個員額是即將要由國防部、由義務役給我們補足……"],["牛委員煦庭：軍人的部分。"],["管主任委員碧玲：以海巡目前來講的話，最主要的人力缺口是在岸巡，所以岸巡主要都是軍職，而且都是義務役，因此在義務役全面徵兵恢復了以後，在全面招募的情況之下，我們已經取得了440個員額可以來挹注海巡，這個部分對於缺口是很有幫助的。另外，我們今年開始的加薪也已經很明顯的看到成效，甚至於有一些離職的同仁都很希望能夠回流，所以今年這個數字我們希望會有比較好的成果。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以現在按你111年的5年計畫，就是達成1萬3,091名的員額目標，對不對？今年是114年，你現在的數字是多少？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們現有是一萬一千七百多名。"],["牛委員煦庭：一萬一千七，所以還差一千多，對不對？一千多接近兩千左右嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們補足了這440個員額……"],["牛委員煦庭：然後你剛剛講補400，那剩下的1,500呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：補440個，但是我們的離退率會下降，然後我們今年也會有招募的成果，今年到目前為止的招募成果還在等海巡做一個季報過來，是不是署長……"],["牛委員煦庭：來，旁邊幕僚可不可以說明一下？"],["管主任委員碧玲：好，我們請署長說明。"],["張副主任委員忠龍：跟委員報告，根據近三年的志願士兵進用，我們是逐年增加的，退損的人員是逐年減少，也就是我們現在招募的成效比退損來說是好的，所以預估我們未來人員補足部分再過一、兩年就可以全部補足。另外，這中間有一部分是艦隊分組艦艇的人員，這是根據交艦的情形、期程不同，我們會跟人事總處……"],["牛委員煦庭：好，其實我要聽的就是實際上的數字，你們115年的目標是1萬3,091，那114年會是多少？115年會是多少？其實就這樣子而已啊！你們有辦法給出這樣的數字嗎？這關乎預算能不能順利解凍，因為我們就是要明確，其實就是監督嘛，對不對？來，主委，114年預計是多少？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們希望……"],["牛委員煦庭：你剛剛有明確講一個四百多，我覺得OK，但其他的呢？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們以111年的退損跟113年的退損來講的話，我們的退損已經減少了20%，所以以這樣的數字……"],["牛委員煦庭：你不要再跟我講別的，你跟我講到底會補多少就好，如果你現在……因為你說要等季報，對不對？你趕快回去蒐集一下，因為我們今天開會還要討論解凍，你趕快把書面補上來，好不好？"],["管主任委員碧玲：仔細的數字，我想除了這440個員額，我們的離退率有改善，然後再加上我們的招募以後……"],["牛委員煦庭：就是你剛剛講的離退率算完之後的結論……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們算一個數字補給委員，好不好？"],["牛委員煦庭：對，你要算一個簡單的數字，也就是114年是多少？115年可以達到1萬3,091，對不對？這樣大家就會清楚明白。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們是希望……當然目標值是1萬3,018，但是我們希望能夠補足剩下來的……"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛，我就是要知道你逐年補、打算補多少、能補到多少嘛？"],["管主任委員碧玲：數字最後會算給委員，好不好？"],["牛委員煦庭：好。再來，我要問第二個問題，現在不管是軍職或者是警職在待遇的部分，其實都是用授權條款的方式來處理，但我相信管主委也知道，這過去我在質詢的時候也提過，現在大院裡面有在討論軍人待遇條例要做修正，也就是所有的志願役未來可能都會一致做大幅的加薪，當然就是可以強化軍職人員大家投身軍旅的待遇，我想這個對於軍職人員來說是很大一個振奮，對不對？當然問題就來了，因為海巡狀況比較特殊，軍警文都有，那我們現在先以內外勤來分，外勤部分大概是以軍職跟警職為主，如果這個軍人待遇條例順利的在大院修正通過，軍職的待遇會大幅上升，加兩萬、加三萬等等，會有一個調升，請問警職海巡會不會出現相對剝奪感？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們在警職福利的部分，其實晚近我們也已經爭取到兩個加給很有可能要被核定，因為現在正在走程序，我就比較不便對外來說明。除此以外，我們還有一個警勤加給的部分是三十幾年沒有調整過，這個部分也是我們下個階段要來跟人事行政總處溝通的一個很重要的項目。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委，我現在要問你的是比你講得還要更深水區，因為過去在授權的時候，行政院之前也幫志願役調過戰鬥加給，但因為它沒有辦法一體適用而產生很多混亂，現在是有可能……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們在戰鬥加給有進展，尤其是戰航加給的部分。"],["牛委員煦庭：你先聽我把話講完，現在有可能是軍人待遇條例會明定所有志願役可能加兩萬或三萬這樣子的一個數字，對不對？但是以你目前……"],["管主任委員碧玲：其實各種加給加起來以後，我們過去是所有各種不同的身分、各種不同類型的加給加總以後，是有達到某種程度的平衡，但是……"],["牛委員煦庭：你現在的意思是，比如以行政院他們自己調的，你們互相處理，可以達到一個平衡，但現在是有立法，所以立法的強度更高，然後針對軍人會更高，這對海巡軍職人員是有幫忙的，但是海巡警職人員我們是不是要比照辦理，我現在問你這個的意見。"],["管主任委員碧玲：很難去比照辦理，因為加給的項目不一樣，所以剛剛我跟委員講的有兩項是用在警職同仁身上，我們晚近的溝通已經有成果，目前在走程序，第三項就是警勤加給，我們如果能夠在警勤加給的部分，三十幾年沒有調，也再度調整的話，相當程度之間的落差就比較不會增加。"],["牛委員煦庭：你的意思是這三項按照你的試算結果，加上去之後，也許跟通過的軍人待遇條例會一樣、會對稱？"],["管主任委員碧玲：以目前我們在海上待遇的總體，跟在陸域待遇的總體比起來，海上就比較高了。"],["牛委員煦庭：我不是問你海上跟陸上，是軍職跟警職的待遇會不會差很多啦？"],["管主任委員碧玲：海上就是警職，陸上就是軍職居多。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你認為不會出現相對剝奪感嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們一方面……"],["牛委員煦庭：但是前提是你剛剛講那三項加薪要通過嘛，對不對？請問具體的期程是什麼？"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前有兩項已經有共識，在走程序。"],["牛委員煦庭：兩項有共識，一項因為事涉警勤加給，還有警政署嘛，對不對？"],["管主任委員碧玲：另外一項警勤加給我們持續在溝通。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那你這三項……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對不起，是海上加給，警勤加給已經調過了，至於海上加給的部分，我們繼續溝通。"],["牛委員煦庭：我簡單做個結論啦，現在在你可以授權的範圍內，你做了若干的努力，所以可能有幾項有達成共識，但是還有一項海上加給，我要問的問題是，這三項加起來跟可能通過的軍人待遇比起來，你認為不會有落差？我再跟你確認一次。"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們本來在海上就會比在陸上高……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以會再多一點？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我就要再追問，這三項最後可以拍板上路的時間是什麼？你要可以對在一起，這樣才公平嘛！"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們看行政程序，前兩項目前在走行政程序，因為它跟軍職專業的加給要一起來處理，所以到時候可能就看人總走這個行政院的程序……"],["牛委員煦庭：我是覺得你們如果要對基層弟兄好，也沒有必要什麼保密到家，但期程其實是最重要的嘛，我要抓時間是何時？"],["管主任委員碧玲：其實主要談的、跟國防部在一起的是戰航管加給會調，目前有共識，另外……"],["牛委員煦庭：好啦，因為今天的時間比較短，你可能很難講清楚，一樣，這個比照剛剛……"],["管主任委員碧玲：可以，我再給委員報告。"],["牛委員煦庭：你有一個缺額的、逐年補足的KPI，這是第一個。第二個，相對來講，你如何幫海巡的軍警職提升待遇？如何來做平衡？期程是什麼？一樣，會後你要補報告來喔！"],["管主任委員碧玲：會，我會補報告，但是我跟委員報告，我們海巡整體來講目前是處在士氣非常高昂的階段，所以福利是一個問題沒有錯，他們都知道長官有盡力在幫他們爭取，而且委員也都很支持，也都有在幫忙，所以整體來講……"],["牛委員煦庭：能夠提升待遇，我相信不管是你作為海委會主委或是我們立法委員，我們都會支持，但是我就希望這件事情明確然後可以落地，對不對？因為我之所以這麼急著要這份資料，就是萬一軍人待遇條例通過，萬一出現落差，然後行政機關沒有辦法用授權條款去處理這個問題的時候，可能我這邊就要啟動……警察人員條例我就要再修法啦，對不對？到底你能不能做到，我會給行政機關時間嘛，但是你要明確的可以講出你到底調升了多少？哪些人受惠了？平不平衡？有沒有辦法讓警察人員也一樣得到好的待遇，就這樣子而已。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們都有在處理，最主要是合理化，而不是說比較或講剝奪感，我比較不希望大家朝向這裡去思考。"],["牛委員煦庭：好啦，所以數額、時間，好不好？你會後提供，如果你覺得現在壓力很大，要給我個密件讓我私底下知道也可以，但是你要讓我知道，這樣我們才知道未來要不要透過修法方式來解決這個問題，還是大家可以透過我們詢答、透過溝通的方式就讓海巡的待遇提升，方向都是一樣的，好不好？請主委多用點心，因為我覺得把待遇弄好，其實是讓你可以達標補足一萬三千多人最重要的事情，主委應該不反對這樣的說法吧？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們都有在處理，請委員放心。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那就請主委趕快提供資料，可以嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝。"],["主席：請麥玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","高金素梅","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","黃捷","王鴻薇","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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請李主委主委你在立法院六年了你算是從蔡政府一直到賴政府當中一直在被任用的選委會主委你認為這六年你做得好嗎"},{"start":93.602,"end":117.827,"text":"我非常的努力跟我的同仁大家共同來把事做得好努力跟做得好是兩回事情欸你覺得你有中立嗎?我中立本席是無黨籍的我沒有任何政黨的奧援沒有任何政黨的支持可是我發現你是非常的不中立喔那我先請問你一下今天我有凍結你的預算對於原住民長期來選舉的困境請問你知道我們的困境有什麼嗎?"},{"start":119.512,"end":139.758,"text":"我想第一個經常被關心的就是有關原住民投票的秘密性你一講話我就去掉了一分鐘你快一點好不好我已經告訴你了投票秘密的問題最近關心的還包括原住民例如立法委員他的補選缺額補選的問題等等還有呢還有不在籍投票"},{"start":147.368,"end":172.854,"text":"這個已經是在立法院了耶不再舉投票對已經在立法院準備要政黨協商了耶那麼重要好我告訴你吧有幾個部分第一個是原住民的投票率非常的低對不對為什麼會低因為投票秘密的問題然後第二個就是因為不再舉投票的問題然後第三個就是我們要投票的時候現場人根本不曉得原住民是哪一個顏色甚至於把我們的票放在抽屜裡面"},{"start":173.914,"end":192.556,"text":"然後看到的是原住民的之後跟他說我是原住民然後才從抽屜裡面拿出這樣子的票來給我們原住民的族人投票這不僅僅是很久的問題了我在上一屆的時候已經在上個會期我已經說了而且我也凍結你的預算結果呢你給我的書面報告是什麼您知道嗎"},{"start":195.909,"end":213.445,"text":"過去我們有若干的瑕疵對原住民投票的部分是有若干的瑕疵但是我們也有一些改進以及精進的作為我提出凍結案要希望你提出具體可行改善的專案報告請問一下你今天的專案報告是什麼"},{"start":215.199,"end":238.856,"text":"您能不能說明一下既然你說你跟你的同仁都很努力都很認真原住民投票的問題不是一兩天的問題已經是那麼多次了您說一下有關於這個不在籍投票的部分其實這個牽涉到我們一貫的這個選務的這個進程的問題所以不在籍投票我們是認為應該是要從對市比較單純的這個"},{"start":244.019,"end":271.037,"text":"公民投票來開始而且這個不在即投票他有很多的方式我們認為在這個移轉投票的部分是已經有實施的經驗了我們就從移轉投票來開始進行那這樣子的案子在上一屆提進來了屆期不連續這一屆我們也在提進來了那是不是可以請委員也幫忙這部分我們先來推動再進次的"},{"start":271.257,"end":288.594,"text":"你自己給我的報告你看了沒有我現在告訴你吧你的報告裡面講原住民不在局投票報告中提到的確會降低族人的交通成本這有助於族人參與投票理論上是雖屬可行的當然可是對不對是可行的嘛對吧"},{"start":289.515,"end":317.541,"text":"理論上是可惜的嘛有各方面的考量理論上是可惜的嘛然後你們告訴我說因為內政部他們認為有投票秘密的問題請問主委投票秘密的問題有數據來支持你的論述嗎還是你自己的想像從制度上的設計當然我們可以來討論也許它會有一些疑慮是有待於澄清的"},{"start":318.481,"end":342.54,"text":"請問一下你們報告裡面承認不再提投票是可以改善原住民投票率那你們具體改善的作為是什麼不再提投票的部分嗎我想這個不再提投票的部分需要更進一步的討論你知不知道我們已經提案了而且我做召委的時候已經審過了然後現在已經在朝野協商了那你認為我們的版本你支持嗎"},{"start":343.28,"end":365.712,"text":"如果朝野協商大院形成共識你們經過這個院會通過的話作為執行機關我們就按照法律規定來執行所以您認為我們只要在大院裡面通過你們就認為沒問題對不對那當然我們必須要依法執行謝謝你的尊重同樣的問題在選務疏失上面你們提出的是要加強宣導請問你們要怎麼樣實際改善選務疏失的問題"},{"start":370.383,"end":392.538,"text":"我們不斷地來進行各項的一個教育訓練那除了這個...將你任內就教育訓練六年啦沒有錯但是...可是還是沒有改善啊我有請...是有改善啦有改善這個...沒有改善啊每一次的選舉它動員...沒有改善這一次立法委員總統的選舉我們還收到投訴書"},{"start":396.193,"end":412.279,"text":"每一次的選舉動員的人數達到那請你告訴我要怎麼樣具體提出可行改善的改善方案你就只是告訴我說你要持續的宣導那以前也在宣導訓練不只是宣導我們加強訓練那要怎麼訓練請你告訴我現在請你告訴我要怎麼訓練我已經透過今天要解凍你的案了"},{"start":423.032,"end":425.075,"text":"加強訓練怎麼樣 加強訓練嗎我們每次選務辦理之前都會把選務人員的訓練列為考核很重要的項目"},{"start":437.13,"end":443.676,"text":"那然後呢如果出錯的話他考核就有問題嗎然後你認為就是說我們如果原住民在現場看到又有這種情況我們要記他的名字嗎用手機把它錄下來嗎這個在整個考核法整個過程都是公開透明的包括如果有一些疏失的話選民都會"},{"start":458.509,"end":486.955,"text":"選民也都會給我們主委今天我要解凍你的預算啦你怎麼考合法請你告訴我我們在考積的部分也都會做考量怎麼樣考積嘛只要原住民投訴就有問題是不是投訴之後我們要去調查調查完了之後呢調查完了如果是有疏失的話我們在考積的部分啊都會做適當的處置主席啊你看一下我們今天要怎麼解凍他的案子啊"},{"start":490.093,"end":516.595,"text":"在書面報告我也沒有看到今天我在這邊質詢他他還講不出個所以然來所以主委你根本沒有把原住民這樣子長期以來選務的問題放在您的心上你還算中立嗎我看到的是你當中選會你只挑你想做的東西然後呢你想做的東西你就趕快來處理甚至於根本不適任您的位置你講出這些一些不合理的話請你不要講話我還沒有請你回答"},{"start":519.517,"end":533.964,"text":"我請你回答的時候你說不出個所以然來然後不讓你回答的時候你又在這邊不具你的身份在這邊回答你認為你是合格嗎?合適嗎?我合格我要再講的是中選會李主委我在這邊真的奉勸你"},{"start":536.556,"end":562.262,"text":"全國人民都在看全國人民也都認為你是一個不適任的中選會主委因為為什麼你挑你想做的事情然後呢就特別專心做你的問題原住民選務的問題我們已經是長期以來沒有辦法解決的問題你在這裡任職六年了而我在立法院23年了我不斷的質詢"},{"start":564.774,"end":571.441,"text":"為什麼我們原住民投票率那麼低就剛剛回到那個問題嘛第一秘密投票嘛"},{"start":572.383,"end":601.883,"text":"秘密投票解決了沒有解決了你就藝人的問題請問一下藝人才是秘密投票嗎兩人不是秘密投票嗎三個人不是秘密投票嗎所以中規的問題原住民為什麼投票率低跟秘密投票有問題有關係既然你們不願意解決所謂的不在局投票我們就從秘密投票開始可是秘密投票開始你們進度又非常非常的緩慢"},{"start":602.426,"end":602.447,"text":"好"},{"start":603.564,"end":631.824,"text":"那講不在籍投票吧跟我們所謂的公投把它脫鉤你們有很多的意見中選會推給內政部很抱歉喔 主委我不僅僅凍結你的預算我也凍結了內政部的預算我要讓你們兩個這部會好好的坐下來談尤其不在籍投票已經在朝野政黨協商了所以你剛剛告訴我只要立法院三讀通過"},{"start":633.206,"end":655.634,"text":"你們就尊重我們希望協商能夠順利你們就尊重吧通過當然我們依法來執行謝謝您在這邊我還是誠懇的建議您主委我在這邊還是誠懇的建議您希望你作為一個知識分子的良知希望你作為一個全體人民的中選會"},{"start":657.575,"end":683.761,"text":"希望你站在這個位置上是領人民的納稅錢是要替全民做事而不是替政黨做事你的年紀非常大了我希望在你退休之後能夠留一個好名聲而不是讓全國的百姓認為最不中立的中選會就是您全國百姓不會去看到我全國百姓是每一個政治人物他都會檢驗"},{"start":685.851,"end":694.43,"text":"我這次就檢驗你我不是任何政黨的我覺得你非常的不中立今天呢我對於中選會的預算我還是認為我必須要凍結以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":347,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時9分）謝謝，我想先請問一下召委，今天我們審6個部會的解凍案，然後1個部會1分鐘，請問一下今天召委是整個都要處理嗎？"],["主席：我們看情況啊！可是你看你們講我都沒有……就讓你們講啊！"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。"],["主席：是啊。"],["高金委員素梅：我想在我們所有不管是透過立法院直播系統，或者是網路上的朋友，他們也覺得很疑惑，這麼嚴重、重大的解凍案，然後我們6分鐘，今天是6個部會，事實上真的是有很多的問題還沒有辦法問完，等於說1分鐘1個部會，好吧，那沒關係，既然這也是立法院長期以來……不過今天我的建議是，如果我們對各部會還有意見的話，我覺得還是先讓它不要解凍啦，我們形成更多的社會共識之後，讓更多繳納稅錢的全國百姓能夠清楚知道他們的納稅錢怎麼使用，然後在立法院，我們立法委員是如何監督他們的納稅錢，我覺得這比較合理，謝謝。我先請選委會的李進勇主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝。主委，你在立法院6年了。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：你算是從蔡政府到賴政府當中一直在被任用的選委會主委，你認為這6年你做得好嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我非常地努力跟我的同仁大家共同來把選務辦好。"],["高金委員素梅：努力跟做得好是兩回事情耶！你覺得你有中立嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我中立，而且……"],["高金委員素梅：本席是無黨籍的，我沒有任何政黨的奧援、沒有任何政黨的支持，可是我發現你是非常不中立喔！我先請問你一下，今天我有凍結你的預算，對於原住民長期以來選舉的困境，請問你知道我們的困境有什麼嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我想第一個，經常被關心的就是有關於原住民投票的秘密性……"],["高金委員素梅：你可以講話快一點，你一講話我就去掉了1分鐘，你快一點好不好？我已經告訴你了。"],["李主任委員進勇：就是投票秘密的問題。"],["高金委員素梅：你看一下……"],["李主任委員進勇：最近關心的還包括原住民比如立法委員缺額補選的問題等等。"],["高金委員素梅：還有呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：還有不在籍投票。"],["高金委員素梅：這個已經是在立法院了耶！已經在立法院準備要政黨協商了，那麼重要，好，我告訴你吧！有幾個部分，第一個是原住民的投票率非常低，對不對？為什麼會低？因為投票秘密的問題；第二個就是因為不在籍投票的問題；第三個就是我們要投票的時候，現場的人根本不曉得原住民是哪一個顏色，甚至於把我們的票放在抽屜裡面，然後看到是原住民的之後，跟他說我是原住民，才從抽屜裡面拿出這樣子的票來給我們原住民的族人投票，這不僅僅是很久的問題了，我在上一屆的時候，在上個會期我已經說了，而且我也凍結你的預算，結果呢，你們給我的書面報告是什麼您知道嗎？麻煩您說一下。"],["李主任委員進勇：過去我們有若干的瑕疵，對於原住民投票的部分是有若干的瑕疵，但是我們也有一些改進，以及精進的作為。"],["高金委員素梅：我提出凍結案是希望你要提出具體可行改善的專案報告，請問一下，你今天的專案報告是什麼？你能不能說明一下？既然你說你跟你的同仁都很努力、很認真，原住民投票的問題不是一、兩天的問題，已經是那麼多次了，您說一下。"],["李主任委員進勇：有關於不在籍投票的部分，其實牽涉到我們一貫的選務進程的問題，所以不在籍投票我們認為應該是要從對「事」比較單純的公民投票開始，而且不在籍投票有很多的方式，我們認為在移轉投票的部分已經有實施的經驗了，我們就從移轉投票開始進行，這樣的案子在上一屆提進來了，屆期不連續，這一屆我們也再提進來了，是不是可以請委員也幫忙這一部分我們先來推動？再漸次的……"],["高金委員素梅：你自己給我的報告你看了沒有？我現在告訴你吧！你的報告裡面提到，原住民不在籍投票報告中提到的確會降低族人的交通成本，這有助於族人參與投票，理論上是雖屬可行，可是……"],["李主任委員進勇：當然……"],["高金委員素梅：是可行的嘛！對吧！理論上是可行的嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：有各方面的考量……"],["高金委員素梅：理論上是可行的嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：當然。"],["高金委員素梅：是吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：理論上當然是可行的。"],["高金委員素梅：然後你們告訴我說，因為內政部他們認為有投票秘密的問題，請問主委，投票秘密的問題有數據支持你的論述嗎？還是是你自己的想像？"],["李主任委員進勇：從制度上的設計，當然我們可以來討論，也許它會有一些疑慮是有待於澄清的。"],["高金委員素梅：請問一下，你們報告裡面承認不在籍投票是可以改善原住民投票率，那你們具體改善的作為是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：不在籍投票的部分嗎？"],["高金委員素梅：對啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：我想不在籍投票的部分需要更進一步的討論。"],["高金委員素梅：你知不知道我們已經提案了？"],["李主任委員進勇：我知道。"],["高金委員素梅：而且我做召委的時候已經審過了。"],["李主任委員進勇：我已經看了。"],["高金委員素梅：然後現在已經在朝野協商了，我們的版本你支持嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果朝野協商，大院形成共識，你們經過院會通過的話，作為執行機關，我們就按照法律規定來執行。"],["高金委員素梅：好，所以我們只要在大院裡面通過，你們就認為沒問題，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：當然、當然，我們必須要依法執行。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝你的尊重。同樣的問題，在選務疏失上面，你們提出的是要加強宣導，請問你們要怎麼樣實際改善選務疏失的問題？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們不斷地進行各項的教育訓練，除了……"],["高金委員素梅：在你任內就教育訓練6年啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：沒有錯，但是我也請……"],["高金委員素梅：可是還是沒有改善啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：我有請……是有改善啦！"],["高金委員素梅：沒有改善啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：每一次選舉的動員人數……"],["高金委員素梅：沒有改善！"],["李主任委員進勇：它動員的人數……"],["高金委員素梅：這一次立法委員、總統的選舉，我們還收到投訴書。"],["李主任委員進勇：每一次的選舉，動員的人數達到……"],["高金委員素梅：主委，請你告訴我，要怎麼樣具體提出可行的改善方案？你就只是告訴我說你要持續的宣導……"],["李主任委員進勇：加強訓練……"],["高金委員素梅：這以前也在宣導啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：訓練不只是宣導啦！我們加強訓練……"],["高金委員素梅：那要怎麼訓練，請你告訴我。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們甚至於……"],["高金委員素梅：現在請你告訴我要怎麼訓練，我已經透過今天要解凍你的案啦！"],["李主任委員進勇：是，加強訓練……"],["高金委員素梅：怎麼樣加強訓練嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們每次選務辦理之前，都會把選務人員的訓練列為考核很重要的項目"],["高金委員素梅：那然後呢？如果出錯的話，他考核就有問題嗎？然後你認為如果原住民在現場看到又有這種情況，我們要記他的名字嗎？用手機把他錄下來嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：在整個過程……"],["高金委員素梅：怎麼考核法？"],["李主任委員進勇：整個過程都是公開透明的，包括如果有一些疏失的話，選民的部分……"],["高金委員素梅：怎麼考核法？"],["李主任委員進勇：選民也都會給我們檢舉……"],["高金委員素梅：主委，今天我要解凍你的預算啦！你怎麼考核法，請你告訴我。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們在考績的部分也都會做考量。"],["高金委員素梅：怎麼樣考績嘛？只要原住民投訴就有問題，是不是？"],["李主任委員進勇：投訴之後我們要去調查。"],["高金委員素梅：調查完了之後呢？"],["李主任委員進勇：調查完了如果是有疏失的話，我們在考績的部分都會做適當的處置。"],["高金委員素梅：主席，你看一下，我們今天要怎麼解凍他的案子啊？"],["主席：等一下大家再討論……"],["高金委員素梅：書面報告我也沒有看到，今天我在這邊質詢他，他還講不出個所以然來。","所以主委，你根本沒有把原住民長期以來選務的問題放在您的心上，你還算中立嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：有啦！有。"],["高金委員素梅：我看到的是你當中選會主委，你只挑你想做的東西。"],["李主任委員進勇：很多人還說……"],["高金委員素梅：然後你想做的東西，你就趕快處理，甚至於根本不適任您的位置，你講出這些不合理的話。"],["李主任委員進勇：我跟原住民的感情都很好。"],["高金委員素梅：請你不要講話，我還沒有請你回答，我請你回答的時候，你說不出個所以然來，然後不讓你回答的時候，你又不具你的身分在這邊回答，你認為你是合格嗎？合適嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我合格、我合格。"],["高金委員素梅：我要再講的是，中選會李主委，我在這邊真的奉勸你，全國人民都在看，全國人民也都認為你是一個不適任的中選會主委，為什麼？因為你挑你想做的事情，然後就特別專心做你的問題，原住民選務的問題已經是長期以來沒有辦法解決的問題，您在這裡任職6年了，而我在立法院23年了，我不斷的質詢，為什麼我們原住民投票率那麼低？就剛剛回到那個問題嘛！第一，秘密投票嘛！秘密投票解決了沒有？解決了只有一人的問題，請問一下，一人才是秘密投票嗎？兩人不是秘密投票嗎？三個人不是秘密投票嗎？所以總歸問題，原住民為什麼投票率低跟秘密投票有關係，既然你們不願意解決不在籍投票，我們就從秘密投票開始，可是從秘密投票開始，你們進度又非常、非常的緩慢。講不在籍投票吧！跟公投脫鉤，你們又有很多的意見，中選會推給內政部，很抱歉！主委，我不僅僅凍結你的預算，我也凍結了內政部的預算，我要你們兩個部會好好的坐下來談，尤其不在籍投票已經在朝野政黨協商了……"],["李主任委員進勇：我們更希望……"],["高金委員素梅：所幸你剛剛告訴我，只要立法院三讀通過，你們就尊重，對吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們希望協商能夠順利。"],["高金委員素梅：你們就尊重吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：通過，當然我們依法來執行。"],["高金委員素梅：所以謝謝您、謝謝您。在這邊我還是誠懇地建議您……"],["李主任委員進勇：我不敢當、不敢當，依法執行是應該的"],["高金委員素梅：主委，我在這邊還是誠懇地建議您，希望你作為一個知識分子的良知，希望你作為一個全體人民的中選會，希望你站在這個位置上，領人民的納稅錢是要替全民做事，而不是替政黨做事。"],["李主任委員進勇：大家共同努力。"],["高金委員素梅：你的年紀非常大了，我希望在您退休之後能夠留一個好名聲，而不是讓全國百姓認為最不中立的中選會就是您，好吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：全國百姓不會只看到我，全國百姓是每一個政治人物他都會檢驗。"],["高金委員素梅：我在這裡就檢驗你，我不是任何政黨的，我覺得你非常的不中立，今天我對於中選會的預算，我還是認為我必須要凍結，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：請牛煦庭召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","高金素梅","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","黃捷","王鴻薇","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算解凍案；二、處理114年度中央政府\n總預算有關不當黨產處理委員會預算解凍案；三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關中央\n選舉委員會及所屬預算解凍案；四、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關大陸委員會預算解凍案；\n五、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關客家委員會及所屬預算解凍案","agenda_id":"1144901_00004"}}},{"id":"161202","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161202","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d52edc762b77f634b1b35f3e47612ac34e98c36c5eeff8411bafb377b89261b63d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:59:32 - 10:09:28","影片長度":"00:09:56","會議時間":"2025-05-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算解凍案。二、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關不當黨產處理委員會預算解凍案。三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關中央選舉委員會及所屬預算解凍案。四、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關大陸委員會預算解凍案。五、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關客家委員會及所屬預算解凍案。\n\n【5月12日（星期一）、14日（星期三）、15日（星期四）三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-12","start_time":"2025-05-12T09:59:32+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-12T10:09:28+08:00","duration":596,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-19"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.8109687500000002,"end":7.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.00284375,"end":62.56971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.56971875000001,"end":76.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.63659375,"end":66.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.87971875000001,"end":87.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.80784375,"end":78.78659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.78096875,"end":107.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.03534375000001,"end":116.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.33784375,"end":124.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.30346875000001,"end":121.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.84284375000001,"end":125.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.34471875000001,"end":133.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.01034375,"end":136.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.98471875,"end":140.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.00909375,"end":140.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.04284375,"end":140.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.07659375,"end":140.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.09346875,"end":147.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.21096875,"end":145.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.46784375000001,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.02409375000002,"end":152.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.96909375,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.03659375,"end":165.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.64221875,"end":166.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.22846875000002,"end":175.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.36221875,"end":217.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.68471875,"end":247.28346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.95846875,"end":256.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.58159375,"end":258.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.78409375,"end":261.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.60659375,"end":267.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.61784375,"end":287.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.16784375000003,"end":301.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.60596875000005,"end":289.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.25471875,"end":297.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.86596875000004,"end":306.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.63721875000005,"end":306.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.48096875000005,"end":313.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.49784375,"end":308.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.80471875,"end":319.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.03596875,"end":345.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.63034375,"end":323.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.68721875,"end":341.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.58471875000004,"end":352.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.92159375,"end":356.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.58346875,"end":354.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.69659375000003,"end":358.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.21034375000005,"end":364.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.22721875,"end":405.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.58346875,"end":408.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.97534375000004,"end":433.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.07721875000004,"end":433.29659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.29659375000006,"end":434.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.31346875,"end":435.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.38909375000003,"end":435.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.42284375,"end":442.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.64221875000004,"end":436.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.44346875,"end":438.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.49346875000003,"end":444.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.02471875000003,"end":446.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.20159375000003,"end":448.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.82159375000003,"end":452.50034375},{"speake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我們請中選會理事主委"},{"start":20.478,"end":37.337,"text":"主委我想請教一下就是我們現在其實全世界都在面臨川普高關稅而且匯率戰的關係所以全世界其實都在這個全力應戰但是呢我想在民進黨的我們的執政黨還是全心全意在搞大罷免喔所以"},{"start":37.977,"end":60.485,"text":"現在我看今年中選會的預算只有編列四億八千六百六十六萬並沒有編列罷免立委跟新竹市長罷免所需要的經費那今年是公投年也沒有看到編列相關的經費那最近我們可以參考的罷免案大概就是去年基隆市長的一個罷免案請問主委那一次的基隆市長的罷免案花了多少錢"},{"start":61.945,"end":86.614,"text":"經費從哪裡來基隆的罷免案中央沒出錢因為那個經費是必須要地方政府來負擔那一次基隆市政府支出的費用大概是兩千七百多萬那我有看到你們中選會發的新聞稿說這一次的立委的選舉的經費大概是一千七百到一千八百萬"},{"start":87.854,"end":104.981,"text":"我們是根據去年有兩個罷免案 一個是台北第五選舉區那個花的費用大概是一千五百萬左右另外就是中市二選區大概是一千九百 將近兩千萬這樣不用捨棄"},{"start":106.682,"end":124.095,"text":"所以說如果假設這次全部都通過的話要進行罷免的投票總共需要經費是多少那要從哪裡來支應一個案子剛剛跟委員報告就是一千七到一千八但是多少個案子會成案我們現在還不敢說那經費要從哪裡來"},{"start":125.956,"end":146.441,"text":"經費因為罷免案你沒有辦法變入這個年度的預算因為有沒有有多少都不知道所以我請教你罷免案的經費會從哪裡來所以罷免案的經費都是申請行政院動資第二預備金所以罷免案會用行政院的第二預備金是嗎也就是我們俗稱的救命錢是嗎"},{"start":147.701,"end":165.192,"text":"我們會向行政院申請動用第二預備金就是第二預備金嗎第二預備金那我再跟主委請教一下因為大家都知道中選會就是一個中立的國家的選務的一個機構那上次我在詢問您的時候"},{"start":166.292,"end":192.927,"text":"主委特別提到說國民黨有涉入組織性的犯罪其實您不是政治評論員也不是執政黨的打手講這樣子好像說這個國民黨就是好像鋪天蓋地的組織犯罪說得好像只要有三個人以上就可以從事某項政治活動那我現在要提醒你法律不能雙標政治更不能雙標我們可以看一下最近很有名的這個民進黨直接相關的共諜案"},{"start":194.128,"end":215.196,"text":"已經陸續的爆出瞎臉的名單有立法院前院長游錫坤的助理聖楚音有總統府辦公室的國安資義吳尚宇有民進黨中央黨部的民主學院的副主任邱士源有新北市民進黨籍的市議員領餘點的特助黃曲榮還有外交部長吳釗燮任內的助理"},{"start":217.737,"end":247.003,"text":"和人杰所以这些人都不是犯犯之辈也不是无党不派都是民进党的党员分别担任党务干部府会的机要党公职的助理所以如果依照组织犯罪防治条例第二条的定义只要三人以上涉犯五年以上的本罪即可认定为组织犯罪那请教主委民进党这一连串的这个涉共谍的情资是不是已经具备组织性结构性如果依你给国民党贴的标签来看民进党是不是更符合组织性的犯罪"},{"start":248.15,"end":272.887,"text":"我第一點跟委員報告的就是我上次答覆委員質詢的時候我所用的詞應該是組織性的犯罪組織性的犯罪對啊組織性的犯罪所以我現在請教您啊依照剛剛講的這些人是不是民進黨更符合民所謂的組織性的犯罪我第二點跟委員報告的我上一次之所以講出那樣子的話其實我內心是有糾結的"},{"start":274.228,"end":297.074,"text":"為什麼我內心糾結呢因為那個事件牽涉到的是中選會作為捍衛人民參政權而這個參政權受到傷害的時候不管你有沒有糾結都不該在你口中說出這樣子的一個其實我相信你看到一般的言論大家都看到是非常的失職又失格這不該是一個獨立中立的"},{"start":299.375,"end":320.278,"text":"中選會的主委該講出這樣的話如果有時間我會再跟委員做更進一層的說明那第三點剛剛請教您的是民進黨的共諜案您認不認為更符合您所謂的組織性犯罪那個跟我要捍衛的中選會的價值無關所以我就不便評論所以"},{"start":320.979,"end":343.489,"text":"在這邊告訴李建永主委其實您上次的發言其實非常的失職又失格我相信您也感受到了全體人民對您的這個疑問那我想身為民進黨中選會的主委您不是民進黨的主委而已您是整個中選會的主委希望您要秉持中立公正公開的方式不要辦藍不辦綠"},{"start":345.111,"end":349.858,"text":"對於執行我們的選務 中立的執行 依法來辦選務 我深具信心"},{"start":364.266,"end":393.362,"text":"主委好邱主委好我想請教一下喔就是之前呢您有受訪有提到說這個民進黨政府以保防清查為名擴大針對軍公教進行中國身份證跟居住證的清查那您接受媒體的專訪有提到說到四月底已經有37萬人完成拒絕其中有兩人持有中國身份證有75人持有中國的居住證這個數字我想對大家來說都很震驚喔"},{"start":393.582,"end":405.127,"text":"因為在我們的軍公教體系居然有這麼多人是有這個居住證有中國身份證那請問一下邱主委那兩位擁有中國身份證的軍公教人員在哪個單位任職"},{"start":410.157,"end":424.759,"text":"報告 確實這兩位有中國身份證的兩位同仁經過我們的協助依照我們兩案條例第九條之一第二項"},{"start":426.14,"end":451.795,"text":"我們認為是一個特殊案件所以他可以保留我們國人的身份協助他已經把註銷放棄了我剛剛問你的是他在哪個單位任職他有沒有涉及有關機密的業務目前都已排除都已排除就是曾經涉及囉都已排除了現在那就是有涉及整個機密的業務是嗎"},{"start":454.585,"end":457.121,"text":"因為已排除嘛代表曾經涉及嘛"},{"start":457.771,"end":484.206,"text":"是是這樣嗎主委他相關的機關已經把它排除掉了相關的機關是什麼機關委員是不是我們不方便在這邊說好那你私底下告訴我但是我想剛剛主委的答案已經告訴我們了他們曾經涉及機密的業務現在已經排除那另外還有就是有75個擁有居住這個身份證的又是在哪些單位有沒有接觸到機密的業務"},{"start":486.168,"end":498.438,"text":"我想我們為什麼要做這個清查跟宣導還有通過一個專案讓大家來拒絕就是讓各個機關啊透過這個清查的作業當中所以你這個是用專案幫助他協助註銷拒絕對不對"},{"start":502.642,"end":520.495,"text":"如果他未來是公務人員對我們國家有忠誠義務的話我們一定要來協助他主委你一定要徹查清楚因為剛不管是那兩個擁有身分證或是75位擁有居住權的他們的業務是不是有涉及機密這我們會來這個不是只是一句已排除就可以處理的是"},{"start":521.075,"end":535.962,"text":"一定要先嚴格的查到底有多少的業務機密已經被洩漏出去然後另外針對您這樣講的話之前針對一萬兩千名的陸配發出的那個通知要求他補繳初級證明是不是就可以比照來幫他們專案協助來去處理呢"},{"start":538.303,"end":554.637,"text":"是 公務員報告因為我們過去在2004年3月1號實施的這個兩岸條例之前已經取得台灣身份了由於他們年紀可能比較資深我們都做了很多完整的配套措施跟替代方案"},{"start":555.157,"end":579.929,"text":"那現在有四項替代的那個嗎 措施嗎不只 就是可以用替代方案有六個標準那另外還有可以延展時間的有三套類型我們盡全力的來協助這些有需要的希望標準要一致啦 好嗎因為陸配在我們這邊這麼久他都擁有我們的身份證 其實他就是我們的家人就是我們的國民 希望標準要一致是 我們希望他在身份上"},{"start":580.549,"end":590.46,"text":"都是不要被人家質疑都是合法在合法的前提他未來才能夠安居樂業合法的前提不要造成民怨啦不要造成他們的困擾啦我們就全力來協助他們謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":273,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（9時59分）謝謝主席，請中選會李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：主委早。主委，我想請教一下，現在全世界都面臨川普高關稅及匯率戰的問題而全力應戰，但是我們的執政黨民進黨還是全心全意在搞大罷免。我看今年中選會的預算只有編列4億8,666萬，並沒有編列罷免立委及新竹市市長所需要的經費，加上今年是公投年，也沒有看到編列相關的經費。最近我們可以參考的罷免案大概就是去年基隆市市長的罷免案，請問主委，那一次基隆市市長的罷免案花了多少錢？經費從哪裡來？"],["李主任委員進勇：基隆的罷免案，中央沒出錢，因為那個經費必須要由地方政府來負擔，那次基隆市政府支出的費用大概是二千七百多萬。"],["許委員宇甄：二千七百多萬。我看到你們中選會發的新聞稿提到，這次立委選舉的選務經費大概是1,700到1,800萬，是嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們是根據去年有兩個罷免案，一個是臺北第5選舉區，費用大概是1,500萬左右；另外就是中市2選區，大概是1,900萬、將近2,000萬。以這樣來推估，差不多1,800萬左右。"],["許委員宇甄：所以假設這次全部都成案通過的話，要進行罷免的投票，總共需要的經費是多少？要從哪裡來支應？"],["李主任委員進勇：剛剛跟委員報告，一個案子就是1,800萬左右。"],["許委員宇甄：1,700萬到1,800萬。"],["李主任委員進勇：但是多少個案子會成案，我們現在還不敢說。"],["許委員宇甄：那經費要從哪裡來？"],["李主任委員進勇：罷免案的經費沒有辦法編入年度的預算，因為有沒有、有多少都不知道，所以……"],["許委員宇甄：所以我請教你罷免案的經費會從哪裡來。"],["李主任委員進勇：所以向來罷免案的經費都是申請行政院動支第二預備金。"],["許委員宇甄：所以罷免案會用行政院的第二預備金，是嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["許委員宇甄：也就是我們俗稱的救命錢，是嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們會向行政院申請動用第二預備金。"],["許委員宇甄：就是第二預備金嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：第二預備金。"],["許委員宇甄：好。我再跟主委請教一下，大家都知道中選會就是一個中立的國家選務機關，上次我在詢問您的時候，主委特別提到國民黨有涉入組織性的犯罪，其實您不是政治評論員，也不是執政黨的打手，講這樣子好像國民黨就是鋪天蓋地的組織犯罪，說得好像只要有3個人以上就可以從事某項政治活動。我現在要提醒你，法律不能雙標，政治更不能雙標。我們可以看一下，最近很有名與民進黨直接相關的共諜案已經陸續地爆出下列的名單：有立法院前院長游錫堃的助理盛礎纓、有總統府辦公室的國安諮議吳尚雨、有民進黨中央黨部的民主學院副主任邱世元、有新北市民進黨籍市議員李余典的特助黃取榮及外交部長吳釗燮任內的助理何仁傑，所以這些人都不是泛泛之輩，也不是無黨無派，都是民進黨的黨員，分別擔任黨務幹部、府會的機要、黨工職的助理。所以如果依照組織犯罪防制條例第二條的定義，只要三人以上涉犯五年以上的本罪，即可認定為組織犯罪。請教主委，民進黨這一連串涉共諜的情資，是不是已經具備組織性、結構性？如果依你給國民黨貼的標籤來看，民進黨是不是更符合組織性的犯罪？"],["李主任委員進勇：第一點跟委員報告的是，我上次答復委員質詢的時候，所用的詞應該是組織性的犯罪……"],["許委員宇甄：組織性的犯罪，對啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：跟組織犯罪……"],["許委員宇甄：所以我現在請教您，依照剛剛講的這些人，是不是民進黨更符合您所謂的組織性的犯罪？"],["李主任委員進勇：第二點跟委員報告的是，我上次之所以講出那樣子的話，其實我內心是有糾結的，為什麼我內心糾結？因為那個事件牽涉到的是中選會作為捍衛人民參政權，而這個參政權受到傷害的時候，我才講出……"],["許委員宇甄：主委，不管你有沒有糾結，都不該從您口中說出這樣子的一個……其實我相信你看到一般的這個言論，大家都看到，是非常地失職又失格，這不該是一個獨立、中立的中選會主委該講出的話。"],["李主任委員進勇：如果有時間，我會再跟委員做更進一層的說明。第三點，針對您的問題……"],["許委員宇甄：我剛剛請教您的是，民進黨的共諜案，您認不認為更符合您所謂的組織性犯罪？"],["李主任委員進勇：那個跟我要捍衛的中選會的價值無關，所以我就不便評論。"],["許委員宇甄：所以在這邊告訴李進勇主委，其實您上次的發言非常失職又失格，我相信您也感受到了全體人民對您的疑問，我想身為民進黨中選會的主委，您不是民進黨的主委而已……"],["李主任委員進勇：我想我對於我執行……"],["許委員宇甄：您是整個中選會的主委，希望您要秉持中立、公正、公開的方式，不要辦藍不辦綠，謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：對於執行我們的選務，中立地執行、依法來辦選務……"],["許委員宇甄：主委，因為時間的關係……"],["李主任委員進勇：我深具信心，我的團隊深具信心。"],["許委員宇甄：我想要請您先回座，我想請教陸委會邱主委，謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：邱主委好。我想請教一下，之前您受訪有提到說民進黨政府以保防清查為名，擴大針對軍公教進行中國身分證跟居住證的清查，您接受媒體的專訪有提到說，到4月底已經有37萬人完成具結，其中有2人持有中國身分證，有75人持有中國居住證，這個數字我想對大家來說都很震驚，因為在我們的軍公教體系居然有這麼多人是有居住證、有中國身分證，請問一下邱主委，那2位擁有中國身分證的軍公教人員在哪個單位任職？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，確實這2位有中國身分證的同仁，經過我們的協助，依照兩岸條例第九條之一第二項，我們認為是一個特殊案件，所以他可以保留我們國人的身分，協助他已經註銷放棄了……"],["許委員宇甄：好，我剛剛問您的……"],["邱主任委員垂正：當時候都是他主動……"],["許委員宇甄：我剛剛問你的是他在哪個單位任職，他有沒有涉及有關機密的業務？"],["邱主任委員垂正：目前都已排除。"],["許委員宇甄：都已排除就是曾經涉及囉？"],["邱主任委員垂正：都已排除了，現在。"],["許委員宇甄：那就是有涉及整個機密的業務，是嗎？因為已排除，代表曾經涉及嘛！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["許委員宇甄：是這樣嗎？邱主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：相關的機關已經把它排除掉了。"],["許委員宇甄：相關的機關是什麼機關？"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員我們不方便在這邊說。"],["許委員宇甄：好，那你私底下告訴我，但是我想剛剛主委的答案已經告訴我們，他們曾經涉及機密的業務，現在已經排除嘛！另外還有75個擁有居住證的又是在哪些單位、有沒有接觸到機密的業務？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想我們為什麼要做清查跟宣導，還有通過一個專案讓大家來具結，就是讓各個機關透過清查的作業當中，我們能夠瞭解……"],["許委員宇甄：好，所以你是用專案協助註銷、具結，對不對？那請問一下……"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，如果他未來是公務人員，對於我們國家有忠誠義務的話，我們一定要協助他註銷。"],["許委員宇甄：主委，您一定要徹查清楚，因為剛剛不管是那2個擁有身分證或是75位擁有居住權的，他們的業務是不是有涉及機密……"],["邱主任委員垂正：這我們會來清查。"],["許委員宇甄：不是只是一句已排除就可以處理的，一定要先嚴格地查到底有多少的業務機密已經被洩漏出去。另外針對您這樣講的話，之前針對1萬2,000名的陸配發出的通知，要求他補繳除籍證明，是不是就可以比照來幫他們專案協助去處理呢？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，跟委員報告，因為我們過去在2004年3月1號實施的兩岸條例之前已經取得臺灣身分，由於他們年紀可能比較資深，我們就做了很多完整的配套措施跟替代方案，現在……"],["許委員宇甄：你現在有4項替代的措施嘛！"],["邱主任委員垂正：不只，可以用替代方案有6個標準，另外還有可以延展時間的有3套類型，我們盡全力協助這些有需要的……"],["許委員宇甄：希望標準要一致啦，好嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：有。"],["許委員宇甄：因為陸配嫁來我們這邊這麼久，他都擁有我們的身分證，其實他就是我們的家人、就是我們的國民，希望標準要一致。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我們希望他在身分上都是不被人家質疑，都是合法，在合法的前提，他未來才能夠安居樂業。"],["許委員宇甄：合法的前提不要造成民怨啦，不要造成他們的困擾。"],["邱主任委員垂正：不會，我們都全力協助他們。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請高金素梅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","高金素梅","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","黃捷","王鴻薇","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","蘇巧慧"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關海洋委員會及所屬預算解凍案；二、處理114年度中央政府\n總預算有關不當黨產處理委員會預算解凍案；三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關中央\n選舉委員會及所屬預算解凍案；四、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關大陸委員會預算解凍案；\n五、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關客家委員會及所屬預算解凍案","agenda_id":"1144901_00004"}}},{"id":"161201","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161201","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d5232f05a9c703c0f4335f3e47612ac34e98c36c5eeff8411ba7f835724aeec88dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:51:21 - 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跟委員報告 事實上我們跟移民署合作在錦町這個有人的檢舉我們已經都有直接到現場去追蹤那我們現在還要進一步的去了解到底是由國人"},{"start":250.914,"end":269.541,"text":"是國人代替拿進來或是由國人負責去繞行但是有沒有中國大陸人士他沒有經過申請這個以不符合用其他的名義進來但是卻在繞行這些宗教交流這個是我們查處的重點"},{"start":271.389,"end":297.718,"text":"我覺得啦台灣是一個宗教信仰自由的國家啦你不管全世界各國的神明或什麼的他要來台灣只要通過合法的管道我覺得我們都應該歡迎啦我們是一個宗教自由的國家但是我們不歡迎就是他不是我們核准自由進行的這個教育對我的意思就是這樣所以你這個要查很好查啊對不對是"},{"start":299.719,"end":329.065,"text":"有沒有入出境紀錄有沒有什麼的這個很好查嘛我覺得就給國人一個很明確的他到底有沒有這件事這件事是不是事實我個人以這樣來判斷我覺得裡面問題很有很多啦所以你應該跟各單位去把它查清楚讓國人知道我覺得這是今天要跟你說的好不好謝謝 謝謝委員那來我再請來請回我再請客委會"},{"start":343.381,"end":364.005,"text":"這個那個谷主委我覺得這個我們現在客委會配合文化部國家語言整體發展方案其實在很多地方行政區排上有加注客語拼音的標示對不對可是"},{"start":365.854,"end":374.088,"text":"主委我不知道你自己有沒有去現場看你在這些的地方其實車流量應該是蠻大或什麼"},{"start":377.163,"end":405.371,"text":"車速也很快其實來不及看我不知道主委你有沒有注意到這個我注意到了是那個去年有發生過這樣的情況那所以我們我請我們那個副主委跟單位同仁還有邀請各縣市的交通單位還有那個相關的單位一起來會商其實這個要改進確實是有改進的空間是做得不夠好不夠"},{"start":406.437,"end":424.21,"text":"不是 我不是要說你們做得不夠好啦我是覺得啦齁這個一開始的出發點是對的是對 是啊但你用在那邊那個齁車速都很快根本來不及看是我覺得啦那你不如齁比如說有"},{"start":425.273,"end":444.202,"text":"你要進去的時候進去客家莊的時候你要這個那我覺得你不如在客家莊裡面的很多你們現在辦的很多活動不如多一點這些客語的這些注音或什麼的我覺得反而大家慢慢走或是在逛的時候更容易看清楚"},{"start":445.843,"end":463.731,"text":"我的建議是這樣,不要主委的看法它有分好幾種,一種是路標,一種是地名的標示好幾種,人行可以停留的跟車行觀看的指標不一樣所以這有很多的分類,我們去年已經開始在著手討論這個部分了我們確實有注意到這是很細緻的問題,所以應該要改善"},{"start":473.816,"end":476.141,"text":"好 你們知道 你們去改善就好是 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":230,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時51分）我請陸委會邱主委。"],["主席：請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：邱主委，我想請教最近大家在講的福建富美宮這件事情，你知道嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，能夠瞭解。"],["張委員宏陸：如果中國的宮廟來臺灣參與遶境等有違法嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：現在是不樂見他們來這裡進行遶境，最主要是他們以主神的地位來地方巡視，連在神的世界都矮化臺灣。我們希望宗教交流能夠回歸到宗教的專業交流，所謂專業交流，指在儀軌上、儀式及演繹方面能夠進行專業交流，要去統戰化、去政治化，回歸到專業化、單純化的交流。不是真正的宗教專業人士，我們都會提高審查的門檻，強化審查的力度。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，我覺得你跟我的看法是一樣的，但白話地講，神的交流也是要平等，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：就是這樣，神的交流也不能用統戰來矮化，但我必須要說，這個只是冰山的一角，你應該也知道有更多他們跟臺灣宮廟的交流有很多的問題出現。我想請問一下，現在兩岸除了飛機、航空業的直航之外，我們的海運目前有直航嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：貨運有直航。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，我當然知道，我是說人。"],["邱主任委員垂正：客運沒有。"],["張委員宏陸：客運沒有，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以在這種情況之下，福建這個廟他們的神像來臺灣是怎麼來的？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，我們也在清查，您剛剛講的富美宮，我們並沒有它申請來臺的申請紀錄，但是它卻用它的神轎在我們這次媽祖的遶行活動出現，甚至到不同縣市的宮廟去做遶境，我們深感……到底它是規避審查，還是一種虛假的交流？我們正在會同主管機關查處當中。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我覺得這要快。第一個，現在只有海運直航，沒有客運直航，對不對？就一般我們所瞭解的，如果神像是坐飛機來的話，幾乎大部分也都會買一個位子吧，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：你從航空公司去清查或什麼，我覺得很重要的一點是，到底是不是真的有中國的富美宮神像來臺灣，還是一切根本就是一個幌子？我覺得這點才要查清楚。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。跟委員報告，事實上我們跟移民署合作在緊盯這個有人檢舉的案子，我們都有直接到現場去追蹤，我們現在還要進一步地去瞭解到底是由國人代替拿進來，或是由國人負責去遶行，有沒有中國大陸人士沒有經過申請，用其他的名義進來，但是卻在遶行、進行宗教交流？這個是我們查處的重點。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得臺灣是一個宗教信仰自由的國家，不管全世界各國的神明或什麼要來臺灣，只要通過合法的管道，我覺得我們都應該歡迎……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們歡迎。"],["張委員宏陸：我們是一個宗教自由的國家，但……"],["邱主任委員垂正：但是我們不歡迎的是，它不是我們核准事由進行的交流。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我的意思就是這樣，所以這個要查很好查，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：有沒有入出境紀錄、有沒有什麼的，這個很好查，我覺得就給國人一個很明確的答案：到底有沒有這件事？這件事是不是事實？我個人以這樣來判斷，我覺得裡面問題有很多，所以你應該跟各單位查清楚，讓國人知道，這是今天要跟你說的，好不好？"],["邱主任委員垂正：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員宏陸：我再請客委會。"],["古主任委員秀妃：張委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：古主委，我覺得現在客委會配合文化部國家語言整體發展方案，在很多地方的行政區牌上有加註客語拼音的標誌，對不對？"],["古主任委員秀妃：是。"],["張委員宏陸：可是主委，我不知道你自己有沒有去現場看，這些地方的車流量應該滿大的，但車速也很快，其實來不及細看，我不知道主委有沒有注意到這個？"],["古主任委員秀妃：我注意到了，去年有發生過這樣的情況，所以我請副主委及單位同仁邀請各縣市的交通單位、相關的單位一起來會商，這個要改進，確實有改進的空間，做得不夠好。"],["張委員宏陸：我不是要說你們做得不夠好，我覺得一開始的出發點是對的。"],["古主任委員秀妃：是。"],["張委員宏陸：但是那邊的車速都很快，根本來不及看，我覺得相較於進去客家庄的時候設這個，不如在你們現在在客家庄裡面辦的很多客語活動中加註客語的注音或什麼，我覺得反而大家慢慢走或者在逛的時候更容易看清楚，我的建議是這樣，不知道主委的看法如何？"],["古主任委員秀妃：對，它有分好幾種，一種是路標，一種是地名的標示，人行可以停留的跟車行觀看的指標不一樣，所以這有很多的分類，我們去年已經開始著手討論這個部分了，我們確實有注意到，這是很細緻的問題，所以應該要改善。"],["張委員宏陸：好，你們知道，你們去改善就好。謝謝。"],["古主任委員秀妃：是。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸召委。","接下來請許宇甄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","高金素梅","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","黃捷","王鴻薇","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 各位委員 各位官員 大家早有請邱垂政 陸委會邱垂政主委 謝謝好 請邱主委"},{"start":14.198,"end":34.187,"text":"主委早 首先要給我們今天所有來報告 尤其陸委會一些肯定那非常感謝其實本席針對陸委會的部分常常請教陸委會主委就是希望說現在台灣人到大陸觀光旅遊的人次一年大概是280萬人左右"},{"start":37.108,"end":54.447,"text":"路方來台灣的大概每年大概二十幾萬人所以比例相當不對稱那我們希望說台灣人去大陸觀光旅遊或是洽工可以得到一個完整的保護機制那我們也知道說現在陸委會有推出一個赴陸港澳動態登陸系統"},{"start":57.29,"end":76.987,"text":"的一個系統那可是在去年12月4號的時候我就本席就有質詢有請這個主委來解釋說為什麼我們現在的附入港澳系統他的防呆機制還沒有完全解決就是說他在登錄裡面的資料的時候發現說沒有一個防呆機制輸入任何的資料"},{"start":77.748,"end":105.903,"text":"都可以來輸入都可以key in進去所以我們很擔心這個登錄系統是不是有誤而且他的防呆機制不完備那過去我們也跟主委討論過用這個登錄系統真的入委會可以來協助的民眾的數量好像不是那麼多所以第一個我們想要請主委我們其實這是本黨團針對很多的凍結案第一個我們所有都解凍案我們都沒有提出復議我覺得這是一個非常"},{"start":106.383,"end":124.671,"text":"理性而且是對各個單位是一個很好的一件事情所以是不是可以請教一下我們這個赴陸港澳的動態登陸系統到底現在的整個成效如何防災機制是否可以如期完成能真正能達到它的功效"},{"start":125.491,"end":148.07,"text":"謝謝委員 都強化我們這個登錄系統的那個建置跟那個效率特別您提到這個防災機制那我們預祝更多的這個我想解凍之後 預祝更多的經費可以強化這個機制另外就是上網去登錄的人也越來越增加大概人數有增加多少"},{"start":148.87,"end":174.468,"text":"我們今年而言就比去年又增加了2.4倍我們也不斷的利用各種機會去做宣導加上中國大陸對台灣這個人身安全風險一直提高我們國人也有這個警覺意識要去登陸那我們也不放棄任何的對外這個宣導的場合去強調那所以這個登陸的這種情形有明顯的成長"},{"start":175.188,"end":196.681,"text":"好當然因為過去的登錄的數字是偏低那我很開心聽到現在的登錄的比例有稍微增高可是本席這邊想要跟主委討論我私下有聽到旅行業者來跟本席透露也反映他們的心聲因為大家都知道現在台灣是有禁團令的一個想法所以基本上"},{"start":197.721,"end":212.6,"text":"就旅行業跟一般民眾的想法是覺得說好像不能組團到大陸去可是現在陸委會為了提高一些比如說我們的動態系統的登錄反而請這個旅行業要協助來請這些民眾或是代委來登錄這樣的問題"},{"start":213.982,"end":237.827,"text":"那所以這些旅行業者覺得他覺得腦袋很混亂的我又沒有要我又不準備帶團到大陸去旅遊那你怎麼又要叫我協助旅客來登錄這樣的登錄系統這樣會不會讓他們覺得腦袋很混亂是不是可以請所以他們有跟我反映會不會讓我覺得說有點政策前後不一然後導致政策混亂的一些問題謝謝委員指教吉哥"},{"start":239.088,"end":254.342,"text":"第一個重點是說我們並沒有您所說的完全禁團令剛剛您提到的我們一年還有去中國大陸去年一年277萬對岸的來我們這裡只有34萬其中11.6萬人還是從第三地來的就剛剛委員講的數字是對的"},{"start":264.811,"end":287.158,"text":"將近30萬而已在這種情況底下人數如此的少是誰在阻礙兩岸的交流第二個我們這個動態登錄系統基本上是呼籲還有組團附入的這些旅行社應該告知他所屬的這些團員為了自己安全多一份登錄就多一份安全"},{"start":288.078,"end":301.953,"text":"那希望呢他們協助這個當事人來鼓勵他們登錄但是是鼓勵性質並沒有強制我們其實目前為止都是鼓勵的所以等一下還要問主委先問一個比較重要的問題就是說"},{"start":304.096,"end":320.138,"text":"賴清德總統即將520就職滿一週年那大家都可以看到過去的新聞不管中國發動文攻武嚇或策動台灣藝人轉發統一的貼文引發外界關注那我相信在之前也有相關的這個新聞等等出現"},{"start":320.999,"end":343.809,"text":"那陸委會宣稱在這些這個中國發展矮化台灣的言論的藝人要依法查處這我們都同意可是現在還沒有看到具體的任何的案例跟懲處的成效我可以請教主委那是不是到底有沒有相關的法律的依據或執行力來介入這些這樣子的行為還有說你們是不是說有明確"},{"start":344.929,"end":370.198,"text":"明確的到底要怎麼樣的處罰怎麼樣的言論要多少怎麼樣的處罰是不是可以在這邊統一來跟這個讓民眾來知道也讓大家知道怎麼樣可以處罰我們都支持陸委會的行為好不好請主委謝謝張委員給我們這次機會說明對於我們附路發展的藝人由於在中國大陸被可能疑似被強制的政治表態"},{"start":371.098,"end":375.908,"text":"那對於這種情形我們從歷次都可以發現在特定時刻"},{"start":376.823,"end":405.694,"text":"他們都勇於政治表態那有些呢到底是不是經紀公司的問題還是當事人的問題但是都在特定時刻那配合中國大陸矮化或是傷害我們國家主權甚至呼應對岸這個軍演台灣轉貼圖文這個對於我們的民進世紀的打擊啊固然有但是其實我們全體國人是對這個是相當反感也有很多檢舉案所以我們跟"},{"start":406.755,"end":422.989,"text":"文化部有一個行政查處的小組最近也會準備好之後就可能會鎖定一些目標進行查處那這個部分一定會落實大概整個時間大概會多久因為過去已經有這個案子跟檢舉案了"},{"start":424.17,"end":440.577,"text":"那我們都做好了各種的行政修正準備然後最主要是說他是依照兩樣條例你有沒有跟中國大陸的黨政軍包括官媒有任何的合作行為那這個可能就涉及到我們剛剛說的"},{"start":441.457,"end":463.237,"text":"兩條例33條之一那當然我們也了解有些藝人在中國大陸發展真是蠻困難的他被迫要去有一些政治方面的被他們中國大陸政府要求要強制政治表態如果他真的有這些問題的話我們文化部也提供了很多計畫來輔導他們回到台灣來發展"},{"start":466.44,"end":484.469,"text":"畢竟台灣的這個創作自由的空間是遠遠比大陸更優越那麼我們有一些輔助藝人的這些計畫可以落實所以我們會趁著這一次行政查處的作業了解他是不是有涉及違法大概會多久一個月內會出來嗎這幾個禮拜應該會很快520之前會出來嗎"},{"start":490.352,"end":497.378,"text":"因為我有點快到了不敢在這邊跟委員承諾因為涉及到主管機關文化部不過我們已經討論很久了應該要開始行動了我們會努力"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":198,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時42分）謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員，大家早。有請陸委會邱垂正主委。"],["主席：請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：主委早。首先要給今天所有來報告的單位予以肯定，尤其是陸委會，非常感謝。其實本席針對陸委會的部分，常常請教陸委會主委，就是希望……現在臺灣人到大陸觀光旅遊的人次，一年大概是280萬人左右，陸方來臺灣的大概每年二十幾萬人，所以比例相當不對稱。我們希望臺灣人去大陸觀光旅遊或是洽公，可以有一個完整的保護機制，現在陸委會有推出赴陸港澳動態登錄系統，在去年12月4日本席曾提出質詢請主委來解釋，為什麼現在赴陸港澳動態登錄系統的防呆機制還沒有完全解決。也就是在登錄資料的時候沒有防呆機制，任何的資料都可以輸入、都可以key in進去，所以我們很擔心這個登錄系統是不是有誤？而且它的防呆機制不完備。","過去我們也跟主委討論過，使用這個登錄系統可以讓陸委會來協助的民眾數量好像不是那麼多，所以我們想要請主委……其實本黨團針對很多的凍結案，第一個，所有的解凍案我們都沒有提出復議，我覺得這是一個非常理性，而且對各單位是一個很好的事情，所以是不是可以請教一下，赴陸港澳動態登錄系統到底現在整個成效如何？防呆機制是否可以如期完成？真正能達到它的功效。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員，關於強化這個登錄系統的建置跟效率，特別您提到防呆機制，我想解凍之後，挹注更多的經費可以強化這個機制，另外上網登錄的人也越來越增加。"],["張委員智倫：大概人數有增加多少？"],["邱主任委員垂正：今年比去年又增加了2.4倍，我們不斷的利用各種機會去宣導，加上中國大陸對臺灣的人身安全風險一直提高，國人也有警覺意識要去登錄，我們也不放棄任何對外宣導的場合去強調，所以登錄的情形有明顯的成長。"],["張委員智倫：好，因為過去登錄的數字是偏低的，我很開心聽到現在登錄的比例有稍微增高，可是本席想要跟主委討論，我私下有聽到旅行業者透露且反映他們的心聲，因為大家知道現在臺灣是有禁團令的說法，所以基本上就旅行業跟一般民眾的想法，是覺得好像不能組團到大陸去。可是現在陸委會為了提高動態系統的登錄，反而請旅行業要協助民眾或是代為登錄，所以旅行業者覺得腦袋很混亂，會認為他又不準備帶團到大陸去旅遊，怎麼又要他協助旅客來登錄系統。這樣會不會讓他們覺得腦袋很混亂，是不是可以請……所以他們有跟我反映，這樣會不會讓人覺得政策前後不一，導致政策混亂的問題？"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員指教。幾個重點，第一個重點是我們並沒有您所說的完全禁團令……"],["張委員智倫：現在臺灣沒有禁團……"],["邱主任委員垂正：剛剛你提到的，我們去年一年去中國大陸的還有277萬……"],["張委員智倫：對。"],["邱主任委員垂正：對岸來我們這裡的只有34萬……"],["張委員智倫：沒錯。"],["邱主任委員垂正：其中11.6萬人還是從第三地來的，剛剛委員講的數字是對的……"],["張委員智倫：是。"],["邱主任委員垂正：他們來的將近30萬而已。在這種情況下，人數如此的少，是誰在阻礙兩岸的交流？第二個，這個動態登錄系統基本上是呼籲還有組團赴陸的旅行社，應該告知所屬的團員，為了自己的安全，多一分登錄，就多一分安全，希望他們協助鼓勵當事人登錄，但這是鼓勵性質，並沒有強制，至目前為止都是屬於鼓勵性質的。"],["張委員智倫：好，等一下還要問主委，所以先問一個比較重要的問題，也就是賴清德總統即將520就職滿一週年，大家都可以看到過去的新聞，不管中國發動文攻武嚇或策動臺灣藝人轉發統一的貼文而引發外界關注，我相信在之前也有相關的新聞出現，陸委會宣稱在中國發展而發表矮化臺灣言論的藝人要依法查處，這我們都同意，可是現在還沒有看到任何具體的案例和懲處的成效，我請教主委，到底有沒有相關的法律依據或執行力來介入這樣的行為？還有是不是有明確的處罰？或是怎麼樣的言論要有怎麼樣的處罰？是不是可以統一說明來讓民眾知道？也讓大家知道如何避免觸法？我們都支持陸委會的行為，請主委說明。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝張委員給我們這次機會來說明。對於赴陸發展的藝人，由於在中國大陸疑似被強制為政治表態，對於這種情形我們從歷次都可以發現，在特定時刻他們都勇於政治表態，這些到底是否為經紀公司的問題？還是當事人的問題？但都是在特定時刻配合中國大陸來矮化，或是傷害我們的國家主權，甚至呼應對岸軍演臺灣並轉貼圖文，固然對於我們的民心士氣有所打擊，但其實全體國人對此是相當反感的。"],["張委員智倫：沒錯。"],["邱主任委員垂正：也有很多檢舉案，所以我們跟文化部有一個行政查處小組，最近準備好之後，就可能會鎖定一些目標進行查處，這部分一定會落實。"],["張委員智倫：整個時間大概會多久？"],["邱主任委員垂正：因為過去已經有這個案子跟檢舉案了，我們都做好了各種的行政蒐證準備，最主要是依照兩岸條例是否有跟中國大陸的黨、政、軍包括官媒有任何的合作行為，這個可能就涉及剛剛說的兩岸條例第三十三條之一。當然我們也瞭解有些藝人在中國大陸發展真是蠻困難的，他被迫要去……有一些政治方面的……被中國大陸政府要求要強制政治表態。如果他真的有這些問題的話，文化部也提供了很多計畫輔導他們回到臺灣來發展，畢竟臺灣的創作自由空間是遠遠比大陸更優越，我們有一些扶助藝人計畫可以落實，所以會趁著這一次行政查處的作業，瞭解是不是有涉及違法，或是有……"],["張委員智倫：大概會多久？一個月內會出來嗎？這幾個禮拜……"],["邱主任委員垂正：應該會很快。"],["張委員智倫：在520之前會出來嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：因為520快到了，不敢在這邊跟委員承諾，因為涉及到主管機關文化部，不過我們已經討論很久了，應該要開始行動了。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們努力。謝謝。"],["主席（李委員柏毅代）：謝謝張智倫委員。","接下來請張宏陸召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","高金素梅","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","黃捷","王鴻薇","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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請黨長會委員長在這裡告訴你我本席要跟你談到這個我們的審查凍結預算裡面本席要請教我們黨長會我們最主要背山跟背凍"},{"start":33.973,"end":63.714,"text":"你剛才說的是不是還要補充一下來黨產會的預算其實也很簡單只有兩幕一個是一般行政一個是黨產處理我剛才報告的是一般行政的業務費的部分被凍結三分之一也就是原來其他另外一幕叫做黨產處理這一幕是已經在院會去年省預算院會的時候完全全數被刪除所以已經都沒有了"},{"start":64.794,"end":76.899,"text":"所以剩下一般行政裡面的業務會少少的然後還被凍結三分之一因為我又要跟你討論跟剛才聽你的報告跟你主流的可能有些關於的問題在這裡我覺得這麼嚴肅的像剛才所說的差不多不用做了啦就等於這個單位沒好位啦"},{"start":93.527,"end":99.872,"text":"因為在古早到現在這個黨黨會的成立就是以前就是我們的國家的財產變成別人黨的財產所以在民主這個國家該處理的我們就要處理啦因為本身所了解像你們最近在國會會這個案子的時候我們是敗訴"},{"start":122.228,"end":134.16,"text":"但是我們還可以享受 因為包括是不是贏就是輸也不一定都輸的也不一定都贏的 就是看我們的經濟搞對"},{"start":136.107,"end":155.975,"text":"就是他會拆外交隊啦在這個中華救濟總會的時候我們是贏的本來我們是輸的是不是這樣來 回答一下中方的案件就是中華救濟總會是贏的因為他只是在高等行政法院等於是第一審的狀況我們才贏的"},{"start":157.956,"end":176.767,"text":"這個是沒有問題但我們有輸了幾件其實都集中在一個類型就是國民黨以前取得的財產它已經賣掉的部分法院現在有不同的意見但是法院從來沒有針對我們的證據的部分有任何的質疑也是因為我們調查是詳實的法院也接受我們調查的事實"},{"start":177.808,"end":200.296,"text":"現在問題出在法院跟我們意見不一樣的地方在於說已經處分掉的黨產要怎麼追範圍怎麼樣那按照黨黨條例的規定不當黨產的定義是在第四條它是指政黨為他自己或他的附屬組織以違反政黨本質或其他背於民主法治原則之方式取得的財產它就這樣子而已"},{"start":200.776,"end":219.363,"text":"他從剛才我的敘述裡面幾乎聽不到說我們黨產條約在立法的時候對於不當黨產的定義有關於價錢的取得是聚焦在價錢的取得上 沒有他只是說違反政黨本質譬如說政黨本來就不應該經營商業嘛那你經營商業這個是違反政黨本質"},{"start":220.343,"end":241.139,"text":"或背於其他民主法治原則的方式,譬如說有違法的狀況,有其他脫法的狀況,只是這樣子而已。但是法院現在的意見,在我們帶的幾個案子同一個類型,就是處分掉的黨產,它要求說是以前無償取得的,或者我們可以證明它又很便宜的價錢取得,這個部分才能去追回來。"},{"start":242.43,"end":246.014,"text":"所以問題聚焦在這一點,但我們對他意見不一樣,所以我們在上述當中本席再跟你請教一下,如果在這個過程當中我們的預算不夠,我們會去追加預算因為現在已經五月了,已經超過40%"},{"start":263.871,"end":287.295,"text":"這個過程當中我們有發動去追加預算來 回答一下我們 因為剛才我報告過了我們有 剛才說有發動沒發動那看行政院的態度行政院有問我們我們當然表達我們必須因為連請律師都請不起沒有啦 要你們的意思跟你們的意思跟行政院說啊我們有去爭取啦有去爭取 好來請陸委會主委"},{"start":293.142,"end":299.709,"text":"來請主委因為時間我來請教公務人員任用的第28條有酸蟲的國籍來賓不可以擔任我們的公務人員已經違反了對台灣的"},{"start":310.66,"end":320.474,"text":"中產的義務嘛,在這裡你們立委推出裡面要求大家都要有聚集,去簽這個方式,結果在你們這一波的查裡面,"},{"start":328.364,"end":330.545,"text":"37萬人喔 已經有99%都已經有做這個動作出來 是但是有剩2.7%他不願意做 他也不願意做因為某一間學校的教授 台學的教授他沒有 要教他也不做像這樣你要怎麼處理啦"},{"start":355.097,"end":369.229,"text":"是 各位議員報告我們在整個清查軍公教核心人員第一波其實絕大部分的軍公教人員都非常的高度配合沒有啦 我知道高度配合就是有99%嘛如果要配合的話 你要怎麼處理啦"},{"start":374.574,"end":397.594,"text":"我們最後盤點剩下500多件這500多件就是說他這個清查作業沒有完成因為我們用拒絕的方法是最尊重當事人成本最低那如果他不用這個方式那我們也會請人事主管機關繼續跟他請教他任職的消極資格有沒有完成"},{"start":398.254,"end":404.599,"text":"持續用其他的方法來做調查因為我覺得你們這個動作出來就是一定有的你看其中裡面有人去中國的新聞局還有那個居住證是很多的我們台灣人去那裡放這些資料所以我覺得你們要好好去查好好去做我們還會有第二波 第三波 循序漸進"},{"start":421.352,"end":436.737,"text":"再來一件 我要來證告我們兩岸人民法的關係的條例裡面在高調的一三在188年定的 但是當時我們定的就是退將役 移到"},{"start":437.897,"end":446.919,"text":"中國 聽他們 聽他們講話 唱他們的歌 聽他們講話在那裡做什麼但是我覺得這個的情形我們一定要看著也要補充他的退休金在這裡本席剛才說的這個條款本席也有提出但是在每個星期"},{"start":463.303,"end":471.247,"text":"我們就已經在宴會讓他們互惠,等他們翻牌了這個本席客,這個沒好啊,就要再展示你對本席所提出這個條例,你認為怎麼做比較好來"},{"start":482.081,"end":502.26,"text":"感謝議員 我們感謝委員的努力您的立法的精神跟我們未來行政院版本的精神態度是一樣的有關於這個第九條之三對於指標性人物賦入參加中國大陸重要的黨政軍所辦理的"},{"start":503.341,"end":521.098,"text":"典禮對他們的祈輝歌 請你致敬這些形式我們會加強立法而且也把不是啦 我覺得要加強因為這張會議已經越來越嚴重了國中國會規範的人員這是我們立法的方向跟委員做法一樣"},{"start":521.618,"end":524.34,"text":"因為我覺得越來越嚴重,一個國家你不愛國家,你拿國家的退休金,說國家的不是,這樣你又去拿退休金,這樣非常不該,所以本省在這裡的時候,不問你們的條例"},{"start":540.149,"end":543.93,"text":"來看什麼要補充的 是 不能聽證這個不愛國家 這裡的人我們不愛請你趕緊離開台灣沒關係 但也不要捏台灣的體育金啦這才是一種讓他們做不對的架勢以上好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":167,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時33分）主席，請黨產會。"],["主席：請黨產會。"],["林主任委員峯正：委員早。"],["王委員美惠：早。本席要跟你探討有關凍結預算的議題，本席要請教黨產會，你們預算最主要被刪及被凍的部分，除了你剛剛說的，是不是還要再補充一下？"],["林主任委員峯正：黨產會的預算其實也很簡單，只有兩目，一個是一般行政，一個是黨產處理，我剛才報告的是一般行政的業務費的部分被凍結三分之一……"],["王委員美惠：還有另外一個呢？"],["林主任委員峯正：另外一目叫做黨產處理，這一目去年審預算的時候在院會全數被刪除，所以已經都沒有了，剩下一般行政裡面的業務費，少少的，然後還被凍結三分之一。"],["王委員美惠：這就是我要跟你討論的，因為剛剛聽你的報告跟你的資料，可能有些問題。這些業務就像剛剛所說的，差不多不用做了，就等於這個單位沒有用了，因為從前到現在，黨產會成立的目的就是，以前我們國家的財產變成別人黨的財產，所以身為民主國家，該處理的，我們就要處理。據本席所了解，像最近國發院這個案子，你們是敗訴，不過還可以上訴，因為打官司，不是贏，就是輸，不一定都是輸的，也不一定都是贏的，就是看證據到哪裡，它的裁決就會到哪裡。至於中華救助總會的部分，你們是贏的，本來你們是輸的，是不是這樣？"],["林主任委員峯正：中華救助總會的案子我們是贏的，因為它是在高等行政法院，等於是第一審的狀態，我們是贏的，這個是沒有問題的。但我們有輸了幾件，其實都集中在一個類型，就是國民黨以前取得的財產，它已經賣掉的部分，法院現在有不同的意見，但是法院從來沒有針對我們提出的證據部分有任何的質疑，也就是我們調查是翔實的，法院也接受我們調查的事實。現在法院跟我們意見不一樣的地方在於，已經處分掉的黨產要怎麼追、範圍怎麼樣。","按照黨產條例的規定，不當黨產的定義是在第四條，它是指政黨為它自己或它的附隨組織，以違反政黨本質或其他悖於民主法治原則之方式取得的財產，就這樣子而已，從剛才我的敘述裡面幾乎聽不到，黨產條例在立法的時候，對於不當黨產的定義有關於價錢的取得、是聚焦在價錢的取得上，沒有，它只是說違反政黨本質，譬如說政黨本來就不應該經營商業，那你經營商業，這個是違反政黨本質，或悖於其他民主法治原則之方式，譬如說有違法的狀況、有其他脫法的狀況，只是這樣子而已。但是法院現在的意見，在我們敗訴的幾個案子是同一個類型，就是處分掉的黨產，它要求我們證明它以前是無償取得的，或者是用很便宜的價錢取得，這個部分才能去追回來，所以問題聚焦在這一點，但我們跟它的意見不一樣，所以我們還在上訴當中。"],["王委員美惠：本席再請教你，如果在這個過程當中，你們的預算不夠，你們會去追加預算，但因為現在已經5月了，已經超過40%，這個過程當中有辦法去追加預算嗎？"],["林主任委員峯正：剛才我報告過了，我們有超過……"],["王委員美惠：簡單說有沒有辦法。"],["林主任委員峯正：看行政院的態度，行政院有問我們，我們當然表達我們必須追加，因為我們連請律師都請不起。"],["王委員美惠：沒有啦！你們的意思要跟行政院說啊！"],["林主任委員峯正：我們有去爭取。"],["王委員美惠：喔！有去爭取。請陸委會主委，因為時間的關係，主委，我要跟你請教，公務人員任用法第二十八條規定，有雙重國籍者不能擔任公務人員，因為已經違反了對臺灣忠誠的義務。你們2月要求大家都要用簽名具結，在你們這波的清查裡，已經有37萬人，也就是有99%都已經有簽名具結，不過還剩0.7%不願意做，例如某一間大學的教授他沒有要交，他也不做，像這樣的情況你們要怎麼處理？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，我們在第一波整個清查軍公教核心人員，其實絕大部分的軍公教人員都非常的高度配合，所以有99%……"],["王委員美惠：我知道高度配合的就是有99%嘛！但是不配合的那些人你們要怎麼處理？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們最後盤點剩下五百多件，這五百多件的清查作業沒有完成，因為我們用具結的方法是最尊重當事人、成本最低，如果他不用這個方式，我們也會請人事主管機關繼續跟他請教他任職的消極資格有沒有完成，持續用其他的方法來做調查。"],["王委員美惠：因為我覺得你們清查出來一定是有的，你看其中也有人拿中國的身分證，也有居住證，很多是我們臺灣人去那邊拿這些資料，所以我覺得你們要好好去查、好好去做啦！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我們還會有第二波、第三波，循序漸進。"],["王委員美惠：再來我要來請教兩岸人民關係條例第九條之三，這是在108年定的，不過當時我們定的是退役將領去到中國，聽中國的話、替中國講話、唱他們的歌，我覺得這樣的情形我們一定要處罰，也要剝奪他的退休金。針對本席剛剛說的這個條款，本席也有提出修法，不過在上上禮拜在院會已經被復議，等於本席提的這個案子沒用了，還要再重新提出，對於本席所提出的這個條例修正，你認為怎麼做比較好？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們感謝委員的努力，您的立法精神跟我們未來行政院版本的精神、態度是一樣的，有關於第九條之三，對於指標性人物赴陸參加中國大陸重要的黨政軍所辦理的典禮，對他們的旗、徽、歌行禮致敬等等這些情事，我們會加強立法，而且也把……"],["王委員美惠：不是啦！我覺得要加強，因為這種情形已經愈來愈嚴重了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：擴充規範的人員，這是我們立法的方向，跟委員的作法一樣，謝謝委員。"],["王委員美惠：對，因為我覺得愈來愈嚴重，你不愛國家，卻領國家的退休金、說國家的不是，你又領退休金，這樣非常不應該。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我們會擴大規範。"],["王委員美惠：所以本席希望你們趕快看這個條例還有什麼要補強的地方，不能姑息這些不愛國家的人，如果不愛，請你趕快離開臺灣，也不要領臺灣的退休金，這才是一種對於他們做錯事的教訓，以上。"],["邱主任委員垂正：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們補充宣告：上午10點半截止發言登記。","繼續請張智倫委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":274,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","高金素梅","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","黃建賓","丁學忠","李柏毅","黃捷","王鴻薇","徐欣瑩","鄭天財Sra 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用路人也搞不清楚要怎麼去使用這樣一個100分的這個人性環境這到底問題出在哪裡"},{"start":256.307,"end":283.272,"text":"我想跟委員報告所有的這個人本的或永續提升行人交通安全的這個方案裡頭其實一個重要的一個環節就是要在地溝通所有的這個因為你不管是縣的也好或區域的改善都是跟在地的民眾會息息相關所以在相關的這個改善的這個規範裡面SOP裡面大概都有一個環節是希望要跟地方溝通"},{"start":283.612,"end":300.858,"text":"還有在地方溝通或者共識下那樣的一個改善才會有成效但是這一點我贊成但是我聽到的我們只是為了否這個公聽會的程序把它跑完至於通知了誰誰沒有通知完全都沒有掌握了所以很多"},{"start":301.658,"end":319.356,"text":"等到做好之後才跑來這個跟我們服務處陳情的也很多啦所以我認為溝通上面真的不能只是做交代一定要落實尤其是他們在那裡住了幾十名人你們都沒有興趣找他們他們當然是怨聲載道嘛這部分真的是要去要求這個部分啦"},{"start":320.257,"end":338.409,"text":"我想我們公路的部分 省道的部分公路局局長在這裡我想回去他應該會交代那至於國土署的部分我們也透過這個陸正道案室來做跟國土署進一步的溝通甚至前陣子我在街道恆春一個案件我們把一個人行步道做了一個沒有站到的地方那什麼人在走 整個在走真的很離譜啦"},{"start":340.998,"end":355.825,"text":"我不能為了要搭乘績效去做這樣的一個規劃這個真的很離譜啦這個我們來檢討好那另外我想我們這個月5號有修正了一個違反道交條例的一個裁罰基準那調高了"},{"start":356.685,"end":383.764,"text":"罰款部分是一萬八到三萬六那預計六月底要上路但是我們從警政署調閱了相關的資料一百一十二年到一百一十三年我們未停讓行人件數雖然從十四萬降到十一萬但死亡人數從五十四人增加到八十四人受傷人數從四千六百多人提升到五千一百多人那這次提高罰款就可以減輕民眾的傷亡嗎"},{"start":388.061,"end":416.681,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下這次這一個就是說調整這個裁判基準的部分是針對在人行道上面就是已經造成這個行人的這個傷亡的這個部分並沒有去針對一般違規的部分去做這個調整那另外有關於行人的部分的話我印象中這個應該是在這個月的這個記者會大概也就是說一到三月的部分行人已經"},{"start":418.753,"end":443.295,"text":"我們三十死亡行人部分一到二月已經比去年同期有減少我們都支持這樣的一個好的一個修法啦但是就是我講的我認為你們宣傳的力道還是不夠啦尤其針對我們鄉下真的資訊傳達比較慢的地方應該用不一樣的手段啦比方一套標準齁在都會可以進而通整坑齁撒不走啦真的是差很多啦"},{"start":444.156,"end":469.61,"text":"應該用不一樣的策略 尤其我之前提過了像我們有關懷據點 你們應該結合我們的社會處或是我們在地的警察局去關懷據點 到這個東北市都去選團嘛這才是我們的受眾啊我覺得應該是要強化這些的部分啦好 謝謝 我們也有相關的陸老師也大概有這個 我們來看怎麼樣再來進一步的看如何結合啦對啊 我是覺得要把你們那個宣傳的那個"},{"start":472.576,"end":497.523,"text":"那我想最後一個問題就是針對我們這個未成年的一個肇事的一個問題那我想過去這個美食問人裡面死傷人數從400多個變600多個成長了4成那所以這個未成年的這個考照的問題還有甚至這個道安獎席跟罰款的問題那我想這部分是不是交通部應該有更精進的一個策略來處理"},{"start":500.866,"end":518.216,"text":"我想有關無照駕駛的部分我們有相關的一個修法來希望能夠來看能不能降低這種無照駕駛的情形當然尤其是未成年的無照駕駛其實它分很多面向一個是社會的面向一個是教育的面向"},{"start":519.356,"end":548.553,"text":"還有家庭所以我原則上我們現在會透過道安委會的年度師導希望教育部有這樣的就能列管相關的這個無照駕駛的這個小朋友然後能夠透過剛才講的那樣的一個幾個環節一起來防範他繼續的無照駕駛我想這個是大概是我們目前正在努力的一個方向但是那有沒有可能才建議是一個考照制度這樣部分來輔導這些年輕人或是怎麼樣做一個合理的管控"},{"start":550.965,"end":551.789,"text":"這是開放"},{"start":553.969,"end":573.023,"text":"比如說我們有可以限制夜間行駛 我想委員講的這個漸進式的考上大概就是很多人的建議希望就是有的是直接建議是考上年齡能夠降低有的是希望有所謂的出學者駕照或是在這裡講的學習駕駛證其實我們現在也有那整個來看的話其實這個還要大家再進一步的一個討論剛才其實有委員也指教過"},{"start":581.809,"end":605.259,"text":"那最主要的話我們現在其實尤其是這種無照駕駛大概就是比較喜歡開機車我們其實現在有微型電動二輪車我們的了解也有一些高中的教官或學校也針對這個來鼓勵小朋友能夠來騎乘青年朋友來騎乘這個然後也把他納入管理所以我想可以透過這樣的方式來避免他們繼續採用無照的方式來騎乘機車"},{"start":606.639,"end":627.559,"text":"對啦 但是我們還是希望這個未成年人這個事情我們還是要希望能夠嚴格來看待畢竟我們也不希望這個因為過去我們自己有很多的同學就是未成年的時候站得都要弄死真的也是蠻多人所以我們還是期待說這一個政策的部分能夠去跨部會來整合一下看看怎麼樣去防堵這樣一個"},{"start":628.596,"end":643.773,"text":"一個政策要實施其實還有要跟地方政府還有跟教育主管機關大家共同因為那個牽涉到學生的安全事項可能不是一個單一的一個交通的面向可以考慮的要整體還有司法的面向也都要一併納入最後那個"},{"start":644.594,"end":663.282,"text":"公務局陳局長因為我們明明要實施遊覽車駕駛識別的一個功能設備的一個裝車那這不會因為我們這邊還是有接到一些反彈的意見那甚至認為這個是不是很好的一個政策那這個我們早時間會再請你們來說明一下這個檢討一下這個功能性的必要謝謝謝謝西湖"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":642,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時49分）謝謝主席，有請政次還有公路局陳局長。"],["主席：好，陳政次、公路局陳局長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：政次跟局長，午安。我想過去許多公路都有栽種許多漂亮的樹，每逢開花的時候都美不勝收，但是我們也發現，許多樹遇到颱風的時候就變得支離破碎，狀況很嚴重，也造成很多的交通問題，所以本席這次特別提出公路法第三十二條修正草案。從去年有3個颱風侵襲全臺，分別是凱米、山陀兒跟康芮，造成全臺2,000到3,000起的路樹交通問題，除了造成路樹倒塌之外，更嚴重的是阻礙了我們的交通。所以本席特別提出，公路局應該在整個公路系統裡面種植重視水土保持甚至是我們原生樹種的提案，避免外來種無法抵擋風災的侵襲。次長，交通部會不會支持本席的提案？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想我們支持委員這樣的提案，而且有關使用原生樹種，這也是公路局或是高公局……其實整個交通部來講大概都是以這樣的方向在走，而且我剛才有特別提到，不管是公路局或高公局都有相關的規範，來規範如何使用道路的行道樹。"],["徐委員富癸：我想這不只是為了保護我們的生態，同時也是對我們整個城市美觀、綠化的一個很重要的因素，有時候開花季節看到很漂亮的樹，我們也心曠神怡，心情會比較好，所以我們還是希望交通部能夠儘快檢討這樣的機制，也透過這樣一個修法程序，希望能夠儘快落實。","第二個問題，有關人本交通推動的部分，我想這是我們大家共同努力的方向，但遺憾的是，根據民意調查，人本交通的政策，在民間的知曉度真的還是偏低，我們好不容易推動了政策，目前我們掌握到的狀況，只有大概不到一成的民眾知道內容，甚至高達八成不知道這個內容。政次，交通部在媒體宣傳，甚至在很多偏鄉、鄉下的資訊比較不發達的狀況之下，應該要怎麼樣強化這樣一個好的政策？有沒有什麼改進的空間？"],["黃司長運貴：跟委員報告，我想人本交通對於一般民眾來講，的確可能比較少人知道這個名詞，但事實上，我們改善行人安全空間的作法，我相信民眾應當是了解的。未來我們會跟內政部國土署針對人本交通的內涵，透過各種場合加強宣導。當然很重要的就是，在不同的管道，我們可以加強行人安全改善的作為以及政策宣導。"],["徐委員富癸：司長，我的看法是這樣子，比較遺憾的是，因為現在很多鄉鎮都在做有關人本環境的改善，標誌標線劃得很漂亮，中間人行道也做得很漂亮，但是好像並沒有得到太多的掌聲。我要講的就是，不只住戶反對，甚至連用路人也搞不清楚要怎麼去使用這樣一個100分的人行環境，這部分到底問題出在哪裡？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，所有的人本或永續提升行人交通安全的方案裡頭，其實一個重要的環節就是要在地溝通，因為不管是縣也好，或區域的改善，都是跟在地的民眾息息相關，所以在相關的改善規範、SOP裡面大概都有一個環節是希望要跟地方溝通，唯有在地方溝通獲得共識下，那樣的改善才會有成效。"],["徐委員富癸：政次，這一點我贊成，但是我聽到的是，我們只是for公聽會的程序、把它跑完，至於通知了誰、誰沒有通知，完全都沒有掌握，等到做好之後才跑來跟我們服務處陳情的也很多，我認為溝通上真的不能只是交代，一定要落實，尤其他們是在那裡住幾十年的人，你們都沒有先去找他們，他們當然是怨聲載道嘛，真的要去要求這個部分啦。"],["陳次長彥伯：有關省道的部分，我們公路局局長在這裡，我想回去他應該會交代；至於國土署的部分，我們也透過路政及道安司來跟國土署進一步溝通。"],["徐委員富癸：甚至前陣子我接到恆春一個案件，我們把一個人行步道做在一個沒有住家的地方，什麼人要走？鬼在走的吧，真的很離譜啦，不能為了要達成績效去做這樣的規劃，這真的很離譜啦！"],["陳次長彥伯：是，這個我們來檢討。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，這個月5號我們有修正了一個違反道交條例的裁罰基準，調高了罰款部分是1萬8,000到3萬6,000，預計6月底要上路。但是我們從警政署調閱了相關資料，112年到113年，未停讓行人的件數雖然從14萬降到11萬，但死亡人數從54人增加到84人，受傷人數從四千六百多人提升到五千一百多人。政次，提高罰款就可以減輕民眾的傷亡嗎？"],["林司長福山：這個部分我跟委員報告一下，這次調整裁罰基準是針對在人行道上面造成行人傷亡的部分，並沒有針對一般違規的部分再調整。另外關於行人的部分，我印象中在這個月的記者會，關於1到3月的部分，行人已經……"],["黃司長運貴：跟委員報告，關於30日行人死亡人數的部分，1到2月已經比去年同期減少了，有減少！"],["徐委員富癸：對，我們都支持這樣一個好的修法，但是如同我講的，我認為你們宣傳的力道還是不夠，尤其針對我們鄉下這種資訊傳達真的比較慢的地方，應該用不一樣的手段，不要用一套標準，在都會可以行得通、鄉下推不動，真的是差很多，應該用不一樣的策略。尤其我之前提過了，像我們有關懷據點，你們應該結合我們的社會處或是我們在地的警察局，去關懷據點跟這些長輩宣傳，這才是我們的受眾，我覺得應該要強化這些部分。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員，我們也有相關的路老師，也大概有這個，我們再來進一步看如何結合。"],["徐委員富癸：對啦，我是覺得要把你們宣傳的比重調整一下。"],["陳次長彥伯：是！"],["徐委員富癸：另外，最後就是針對未成年肇事的問題，過去每10萬人的死傷人數從四百多個變六百多個，成長了四成，關於未成年的考照問題甚至道安講習跟罰款的問題，這部分交通部是不是應該有更精進的策略來處理？"],["陳次長彥伯：無照駕駛的部分我們有相關的修法，看能不能降低這種無照駕駛的情形，尤其是未成年的無照駕駛分很多面向，一個是社會的面向，一個是教育的面向，還有家庭。原則上，我們現在會透過道安委員會的年度施導，希望教育部能列管相關無照駕駛的小朋友，然後能夠透過剛才講的那幾個環節，一起防範他繼續無照駕駛，我想這大概是我們目前正在努力的方向。"],["徐委員富癸：那有沒有可能採漸進式的考照制度輔導這些年輕人，或是怎麼樣做合理的管控？"],["陳次長彥伯：所謂的漸進式是開放……"],["徐委員富癸：比如說我們可以限制夜間行駛。"],["陳次長彥伯：OK，我看到了。委員剛才講的漸進式考照是很多人的建議，有的是直接建議考照年齡能夠降低，有的是希望有所謂的初學者駕照或是在這裡講的……學習駕駛證其實我們現在也有。整體來看的話，其實這個還要大家再進一步討論，剛才其實有委員也指教過。最主要的話，尤其這種無照駕駛大概比較喜歡騎機車，我們其實現在有微型電動二輪車，依我們的了解，也有一些高中的教官或學校也針對這個來鼓勵小朋友能夠騎乘，讓青年朋友來騎乘這個，然後也把它納入管理。我想可以透過這樣的方式，避免他們繼續採用無照的方式騎乘機車。"],["徐委員富癸：對啦，但是我們還是希望未成年人這件事情能夠嚴格看待，畢竟我們也不希望……因為過去我們自己有很多同學就是未成年的時候騎摩托車撞死了，真的也是滿多人有這樣的情況，所以我們還是期待這方面的政策能夠跨部會整合一下，看看怎麼樣去防堵這樣一個……"],["陳次長彥伯：這樣的一個政策要實施，其實還要跟地方政府、教育主管機關大家共同努力……"],["徐委員富癸：是，我們一起來努力。"],["陳次長彥伯：因為那個牽涉到學生的安全事項，可能不是單一個交通面向可以考慮，要整體，還有司法的面向也都要一併納入。"],["徐委員富癸：最後，公路局陳局長，我們明年要實施遊覽車駕駛識別功能設備的裝設，這部分我們這邊還是有接到一些反彈的意見，甚至認為這個不是一個很好的政策，所以我會找時間再請你們來說明一下，檢討一下這個功能性的必要，謝謝。"],["陳局長文瑞：是！"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。","請陳素月委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-11","speakers":["林國成","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","許智傑","陳素月","蔡其昌","何欣純","林俊憲","張啓楷","廖先翔","李昆澤","游顥","黃健豪","陳雪生","魯明哲","徐富癸","邱若華","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員吳宗憲等17人、(二)委員賴士葆等28人、(三)委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具「人\n工智慧基本法草案」及(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工智慧發展及管理條例草案」案；二、審查\n( 一) 委員林俊憲等23 人擬具「公路法第二十七條、第二十八條及第七十五條條文修正草案」、\n(二)委員陳冠廷等18人、(三)委員徐富癸等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」、\n(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「公路法第三十三條條文修正草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團、(六)委\n員馬文君等19 人、( 七) 委員邱若華等17 人分別擬具「公路法第三十九條之一條文修正草案」、\n(八)委員何欣純等18人擬具「公路法第四十六條及第六十條之一條文修正草案」、(九)委員王義\n川等16人擬具「公路法第六十五條條文修正草案」及(十)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「公路法第七十\n二條條文修正草案」案；三、審查 ( 一 ) 委員林俊憲等 22 人擬具「停車場法第四條條文修正草\n案」、(二)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」及(三)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「停車場法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。【本日會議僅針對開會事由二及三進行合併詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1144802_00001"}}},{"id":"161197","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161197","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d52cdf0c0bc292cd317988fdfbeb5b668758c36c5eeff8411ba5483ce43c3d65a485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"11:40:35 - 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謝謝局長 邀請我們交通部的陳次長好 陳正次委員好 次長好 次長 是這個孔蓋要下地要原則下地 例外才不下地 我給你看幾個地方第一個 這個是惡名昭彰"},{"start":31.42,"end":51.907,"text":"這個在台中市100公尺有20幾個孔蓋這個在台南的仁德20公尺有將近10個孔蓋這些都是落後的象徵哪一個國家的馬路像台灣這樣好像在打國票一樣 一塊一塊"},{"start":54.045,"end":74.551,"text":"而且你孔蓋啊 因為它分屬很多單位維護狀況都不一樣雖然我們交通部有訂那個防滑系數但是啊 通常馬路鋪好以後啊防滑系數還有路評啊 都在驗收那一天合格而已啦車開久了就沒賣了啦"},{"start":79.46,"end":96.129,"text":"如果不是出現高低差不平啦 或者孔蓋沒有蓋緊啦要不然喔 就是有防滑係數不足來 我們再看一下會不會發生車禍鎮壁壞成車了啦機車歧視啦有沒有 嚇到民意罵罵了 有沒有看到這裡喔 甚至出過人命啦這位女歧視很不幸啦壓過孔蓋又滑倒啦摔死啦"},{"start":107.813,"end":131.55,"text":"所以家屬 很多用路人都很清楚啦有孔蓋的地方啊 就好像地雷啦如果你沒地方傘 那你要把它騎過去你就要小心啦 很可能會被滑倒啊那汽車也差不多啦 因為如果不平的話你的車這樣壓過去 高高低低這樣彈跳啊車也快壞啦 是不是這樣"},{"start":134.673,"end":156.509,"text":"所以本期我在上一屆很可惜因為屆期不連續我要修公路法我們希望孔蓋要原則下地例外才不下地台灣的孔蓋有多可怕我再給你看一個表社長這個我記得我也跟你討論過台電還有將近70萬個孔蓋沒有下地台水有將近50萬個孔蓋"},{"start":163.328,"end":188.073,"text":"中油還有1500個左右中華電信最可怕 有144萬個所以台灣目前的孔蓋光這四大單位台電 台水 中油 中華電信就有超過260萬個孔蓋我還沒有算瓦斯 我也不算電子電視台"},{"start":190.267,"end":197.689,"text":"第四台也會走下面 還有地方上的一些孔蓋 我還沒有計算所以我為什麼要修公路法第一個 台灣的公路大街小巷還有這麼多的孔蓋兩三百萬個 這個實在是很危險 也是很落後的象徵"},{"start":214.144,"end":243.285,"text":"所以啊我修的法其實也很有彈性第一個原則下地第二個如果你孔蓋的管理單位你覺得你那個地方你不適合或不能下地那你可以列出來彈性給他們所以這個是彼此都有一個彈性他可以列出他無法下地的地方就是說這個範圍他沒有辦法下地這個他可以定"},{"start":244.38,"end":266.985,"text":"第三啊我也沒有設完成期限說你多久以內幾百萬個孔蓋要全部下地那第三點很重要我有變法則如果你那個地方孔蓋已經出問題那我請你下地如果你沒有下地那我們有一些法則我再請教次長你現在如果"},{"start":268.57,"end":284.418,"text":"尤其是汽車歧視最危險你壓過孔蓋如果你摔倒你現在是沒有錢賠你沒有法源依據孔蓋使用單位從來沒有認輸全部都要去範圍隔受害人要去法院提告因為我們的沒有母法沒有法則那孔蓋使用單位沒有一件賠給受害者都叫人去收割"},{"start":298.383,"end":324.307,"text":"都說你騎車不適宜啦你自己會摔倒啦 有的沒的啦所以我其實在上一屆立委任命我就開始修啦那我也辦過工電會我也跟很多的使用單位 事業單位有孔蓋的也談過 也跟你交通部談過經濟部所管的啦 台水啦 台電啦大家都同意啦"},{"start":325.37,"end":337.924,"text":"交通部有同意啦 台電 台水 中油都同意啦交通部經濟保管的事 都同意啦中油 台電 台水啦交通部那時候有同意你交通部的態度有改變嗎"},{"start":343.066,"end":370.021,"text":"孔蓋下你來 你回答我想跟委員報告我想有關委員特別提案原則下地啦 例外不下地啦這樣的一個修法剛才在口頭的報告裡頭大概也都有說明原則上我們是尊重對不對 你態度有沒有改變嗎目前沒有改變沒有改變嘛 所以交通部也同意那現在就有一個單位反對啦那中華電信啦最後一列的單位是中華電信他孔蓋最多"},{"start":372.488,"end":398.93,"text":"然後每次要碰這個法他就會去遊說國民黨的立委出來反對就是你們 你們的中華電信最惡劣的事業單位它的空間有170幾萬我剛剛統計有144萬個 那不要再看一下借我們資產看一下260萬個沒有下地 這四大單位其中啊 中華電信就有140幾萬個了"},{"start":402.162,"end":422.251,"text":"中華電信每次都用盡辦法要來阻擋這樣的一個修法方向所以市長我當時就跟各大單位也跟你們交通部溝通過嘛原則下地如果你例外你管理使用單位覺得你們無法下地你可以訂換回你可以訂出來"},{"start":423.973,"end":445.668,"text":"對不對 第二個 我也沒有完成期限 說你多久要完成這已經是很彈性的一個做法第三 當然你有罰則嘛 這是保護人民最卑微的一個請求嘛人家經過要補到 如果造勢原因是你恐幹的問題現在是不賠 因為他沒有法源根據啊 你知道嗎"},{"start":448.652,"end":477.68,"text":"所以如果就算你造勢原因是因為孔蓋路不平孔蓋防滑係數不足可憐的受害者也要去提告啦 你要去告國賠啦因為啊 法律不規定喔 這要佩戚啊我們現在比較重啦 你使用單位 如果我已經叫你我已經通知你那個地方要下地 或者要改善啊你如果沒有 我現在定一個法則這是最基本的保護用路人"},{"start":480.19,"end":484.668,"text":"這是不是我們應該要做的對不對你知道他們不會支持我的消防嗎"},{"start":486.391,"end":515.43,"text":"在進入主條討論的時候來表達支持的態度是好謝謝市長我再跟市長提醒經濟部管的單位都同意啦經濟部也同意經濟部管的事業單位也都同意就只有你交通部我跟委員報告中華電信最惡劣中華電信我們只是最大股東啦那個主管機關NCC啦但是我們恐慨最多我們會來轉達請他們來重視這個最反對最惡劣每次要修法出來遊說的那今天遊說國民黨的立委出來反對"},{"start":516.414,"end":516.434,"text":"我們會來轉達"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":622,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（11時40分）本席邀請交通部的陳次長。"],["主席：好，陳政次。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：次長好。次長，這個孔蓋要下地，要原則下地，例外才不下地，我給你看幾個地方，第一個，這個是惡名昭彰，在臺中市才100公尺就有二十幾個孔蓋，在臺南仁德才20公尺有將近10個孔蓋，這些都是落後的象徵，哪一個國家的馬路像臺灣這樣？就好像在貼膏藥一樣，都一塊、一塊，而且因為孔蓋分屬很多單位，維護狀況都不一樣，雖然交通部有訂防滑係數，但是通常在馬路鋪好以後，防滑係數還有路平都只有在驗收那一天合格而已，很多車子開過去，時間一久就不平了，不是出現高低差、不平或者孔蓋沒有蓋緊，要不然就是防滑係數不足。來，我們再看一下，這樣會不會發生車禍？常常發生車禍，機車騎士摔得一塌糊塗，有沒有看到？這裡甚至出過人命，這位女騎士很不幸，她騎車壓過孔蓋一滑倒就摔死了，所以很多用路人都很清楚，有孔蓋的地方就好像地雷，如果你沒地方閃而一定要騎過去，你就要非常小心，因為很可能會滑倒。那汽車也差不多，因為如果不平的話，你的車壓過去，高高低低這樣彈跳，車子也會很快壞掉，是不是這樣？","我在上一屆要修公路法，但是很可惜，因為屆期不連續，我們希望孔蓋要原則下地、例外才不下地。臺灣的孔蓋有多可怕？我再給你看一個表，次長，我記得我也跟你討論過，台電還有將近70萬個孔蓋沒有下地，台水有將近50萬個孔蓋，中油還有1,500個左右，中華電信最可怕，有144萬個。所以臺灣目前的孔蓋光是台電、台水、中油、中華電信這四大單位就有超過260萬個孔蓋，我還沒有算瓦斯，我也沒有算地方的第四臺，第四臺的管線也會走下面，還有地方上的一些孔蓋，我還沒有計算。我為什麼要修公路法？第一個，在臺灣的公路還有大街小巷有這麼多的孔蓋，多達二、三百萬個，這實在是很危險，也是很落後的象徵。其實我修的法也很有彈性，第一個，原則下地；第二個，如果孔蓋的管理單位覺得在那個地方不適合或不能下地，那你可以列出來，給他們彈性，所以彼此都有一個彈性，他可以列出無法下地的地方，就是在這個範圍沒有辦法下地，這個他可以訂；第三，我也沒有設完成期限，要求在多久以內幾百萬個孔蓋要全部下地，但是第三點很重要，就是我有定罰則，因為你那個地方的孔蓋已經出問題，所以我請你下地，如果你沒有下地，那我們有一些罰則。次長，尤其是機車騎士最危險，如果壓過孔蓋而摔倒，現在沒有錢賠，沒有法源依據，孔蓋使用單位從來沒有認輸，全部都是請他們去法院提告，受害人要去法院提告，因為母法沒有罰則，孔蓋使用單位沒有一件是賠給受害者，都叫人去提告，都說你騎車不小心、你自己摔倒等等有的沒的。所以其實在上一屆立委任內，我就開始修了，我也辦過公聽會，也跟很多的使用單位、有孔蓋的事業單位談過，也跟你們交通部談過。經濟部所管的台水、台電大概都同意，交通部也同意，台電、台水、中油都同意，經濟部管的事業單位都同意，中油、台電、台水，交通部那時候也同意，有關孔蓋下地，現在交通部態度有改變嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，我想有關委員特別提案的……"],["林委員俊憲：原則下地，例外不下地。"],["陳次長彥伯：這樣的修法，剛才在口頭報告大概也都有說明了，原則上我們是尊重。"],["林委員俊憲：你態度有沒有改變嘛？"],["陳次長彥伯：目前沒有改變。"],["林委員俊憲：沒有改變，所以交通部也同意，現在就有一個單位反對，就是中華電信，最惡劣的單位就是中華電信，它孔蓋最多，每次要碰這個法，它就會去遊說國民黨的立委出來反對，就是你們的中華電信，最惡劣的事業單位，它的孔蓋有一百四十幾萬，我剛剛統計有144萬個。這個表再看一下，請次長看一下，260萬個沒有下地，這是四大單位的部分，其中中華電信就有一百四十幾萬個，中華電信每次都用盡辦法要阻擋這樣的修法方向。次長，我當時就跟各大單位也跟你們交通部溝通過，原則下地，如果例外，孔蓋管理使用單位覺得無法下地，你可以訂出範圍，對不對？第二個，我也沒有設完成期限，說你多久要完成，這已經是很有彈性的作法。第三個，當然要有罰則，這是保護人民最卑微的請求，人家經過那邊跌倒，如果肇事原因是孔蓋的問題，現在是不賠耶！因為沒有法源根據啊，你聽懂了嗎？所以就算肇事原因是因為孔蓋、路不平，孔蓋防滑係數不足，可憐的受害者也要去提告，告國賠，因為法律沒有規定這個部分要賠錢，那我們現在就來訂定，如果已經通知使用單位那個地方要下地或者要改善，如果沒有，我現在訂一個罰則，這是最基本的保護用路人，這是不是我們應該要做的，對不對？交通部會支持我的修法嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我們會在進入逐條討論的時候表達支持的態度。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝次長。我再跟次長提醒，經濟部管的單位都同意，經濟部也同意，經濟部管的事業單位都同意，就只有你交通部，就是中華電信最惡劣。"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告，中華電信我們只是最大股東，主管機關是NCC，但是我們會轉達，請他們重視這個部分。"],["林委員俊憲：孔蓋最多的就是中華電信，最反對、最惡劣，每次要修法就出來遊說，今天就遊說國民黨立委出來反對。"],["陳次長彥伯：我們會來轉達。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員。","現在請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-11","speakers":["林國成","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","許智傑","陳素月","蔡其昌","何欣純","林俊憲","張啓楷","廖先翔","李昆澤","游顥","黃健豪","陳雪生","魯明哲","徐富癸","邱若華","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員吳宗憲等17人、(二)委員賴士葆等28人、(三)委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具「人\n工智慧基本法草案」及(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工智慧發展及管理條例草案」案；二、審查\n( 一) 委員林俊憲等23 人擬具「公路法第二十七條、第二十八條及第七十五條條文修正草案」、\n(二)委員陳冠廷等18人、(三)委員徐富癸等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」、\n(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「公路法第三十三條條文修正草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團、(六)委\n員馬文君等19 人、( 七) 委員邱若華等17 人分別擬具「公路法第三十九條之一條文修正草案」、\n(八)委員何欣純等18人擬具「公路法第四十六條及第六十條之一條文修正草案」、(九)委員王義\n川等16人擬具「公路法第六十五條條文修正草案」及(十)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「公路法第七十\n二條條文修正草案」案；三、審查 ( 一 ) 委員林俊憲等 22 人擬具「停車場法第四條條文修正草\n案」、(二)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」及(三)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「停車場法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。【本日會議僅針對開會事由二及三進行合併詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1144802_00001"}}},{"id":"161196","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161196","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d52e5b7abc006f82172988fdfbeb5b668758c36c5eeff8411ba42d906fa9f5dffe95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:26:22 - 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陳次長委員好次長好是次長今天有兩個題目想來救教次長第一個我想這些年來陸續媒體也都有報導就是特別是開放現在這個檢舉之後"},{"start":31.486,"end":47.021,"text":"這個媒體也都有報導就是有關那個高速公路啊要下這個交流道譬如說這個台76線啊這個中部地區民眾非常常常使用台76線在12點"},{"start":53.202,"end":70.121,"text":"省道跟高速公路都有啦譬如說台76線下這個浦新交流道然後下浦沿閘道都會出現擁捨情形"},{"start":72.486,"end":90.98,"text":"那庸舍呢大家就會一路從下面一路往上塞往上塞的結果就會塞到那個叫做路尖然後呢就有人檢舉那過去呢我查了一下新聞資料像這個"},{"start":95.282,"end":120.918,"text":"TVBS媒體的報導警察依檢舉影片開80張發單就一整排車主都收到紅單那本席最近也同樣收到民眾的陳情也是一樣因為要排隊嘛這個紅色的車子要排隊那排隊你看他的車輪啊已經一輪在這個這個路肩上面所以呢就檢舉這個所愛這個行駛路肩那"},{"start":126.292,"end":146.791,"text":"市長這個我想不是今天才發生那過去法院也曾判決我查了一下資料法院也曾針對民眾在法院有訴訟所以法院就認證說排入監是為了緊急避難所以准予撤銷這個罰單"},{"start":148.618,"end":176.408,"text":"所以我看過公路局的做法這個法院准許撤銷罰單然後我們的做法裡面有去改快速道路或者高速公路這個路肩的情形那也有要求要動態檢舉也就是不能憑一張照片因為那動態表示這個透過動態就可以看到他是故意要走路肩還是被迫走路肩"},{"start":177.543,"end":201.045,"text":"所以動態的檢舉也是一種方法但是呢這個民眾到今天為止還是譬如說我講這一張罰單我請公路單位來說明公路單位還是他覺得沒有辦法還是要請民眾自己去申訴那市長我想喔這個民眾喔其實市農工商很忙啊"},{"start":201.96,"end":227.375,"text":"被開了罰單 明明就是在路間等待塞車就下面我就下不去嘛那 這樣的一個塞車情形民眾還要主動被開這個單子已經是気持很壞了這就不是 他就沒有錯啊 他就你你政府應該解決塞車的問題啊你塞車讓我下不去我排隊在那裡 還要被檢舉 還要開罰單開罰單你告訴我說 你自己去申訴"},{"start":232.694,"end":239.549,"text":"所以本席今天透過這個質詢就是要來救救次長像這種叫民怨這種就是制度"},{"start":241.317,"end":269.267,"text":"制度殺人啦簡單講就是這樣子那所以市長我看過過去的方法譬如說我們曾經在法院認證上把它撤銷當然這個不好啦不宜叫大家每一個人都上法院這個制度設計叫大家你法開完之後我把你開了你自己再去法院講嘛這個我是覺得非常不妥所以有些路段或許適合在工程設計上去做調整但"},{"start":270.066,"end":298.54,"text":"我也接受我們公路同仁的講法有些路段是不適合的所以開路間是不對的不可以但如果因為被迫他必須因為你塞車嘛所以我必須就必須要在那裡排隊那我們也曾經有個案叫做我們要求在有些路段應該不說個案有些路段要求要動態檢舉那為什麼我們交通部不統一去宣布說類似像這種情形都應該要動態檢舉"},{"start":300.974,"end":323.61,"text":"來 次長我想我跟委員報告一下有關委員剛才舉例的很多這些照片其實都牽涉到這個相關的違規舉發的這個相關的實務而且應該除了公務主管機關之外可能也要跟警察機關大家共同去討論一下因為什麼樣的情況下 當然是如果"},{"start":324.891,"end":342.844,"text":"該委員特別要緊急避難啊或者是什麼樣情況下他來行駛這樣不得行駛的一個路段這個說不定有他的可行性但是是不是一定是這樣這個可能要再討論一下所以委員特別提到的這個部分我想我們"},{"start":343.684,"end":356.845,"text":"可以帶回去請司裡頭或是公路局或高工局整個道路主管機關再跟警察機關好好大家討論一下到底是什麼樣的情況因為即便是在這個塞車的時候所有的車輛還是要遵循著相關的一個規定來行駛"},{"start":358.928,"end":387.661,"text":"因為他剛才什麼樣的情況下是所有的車子都跑到路肩了這個可能要去探究一下說不定就是在前面有什麼樣的一個狀況發生了所以整個來講可能不宜從這樣幾張照片就說不可市長你可能完全沒有懂我剛剛花了很長時間在講這件事情我要告訴你是什麼他就是有一些樣態我講過不可以走路肩喔但有一些樣態他是不得不走路肩喔"},{"start":389.025,"end":405.101,"text":"譬如說舉例嘛 它如果一路從快車道排上來 簡單講它要塞住最外側的車道 如果塞車的時候 閘道塞車它已經一路從閘道一直排上來 它一定要排到最外側的車道嘛"},{"start":405.66,"end":419.775,"text":"那大家會習慣 譬如說前面一台車 排外車 大家會覺得說為了讓車 高速公路不要塞車 大家就會盡量往路間往路間靠 這人性嘛 你現在懂我在講什麼嗎 所以"},{"start":420.899,"end":440.604,"text":"他如果不是因為這個樣子而去行駛路肩這當然要罰那本席告訴你的是一種特別的樣態你的設計他就自然而然他一個車輪可能他一半因為他要讓快車道好開嘛所以他就會自然不要塞到人家在塞車大家盡量靠邊停嘛"},{"start":441.164,"end":466.76,"text":"那靠邊停 前面都靠邊停 我一個人難道我要就給他停在外側車道嗎 不可能 我會跟著前面的車靠邊停所以我靠邊停 我的一個輪子可能在路肩甚至大家都停路肩的時候 我也會跟著停路肩因為我不可能一個人 我就停外側車道因為前面整排塞車上來都停路肩那我的意思是說"},{"start":468.058,"end":486.126,"text":"政府站在這些案例上面這些易塞車路段只要一有人檢舉就會倒這個不是今天才有的個案嘛就會有人檢舉就會導致民眾他自然而然他就會去車子就會在路肩上面嘛所以他被拍照他就會要去"},{"start":486.866,"end":509.538,"text":"你就要叫他自己去申訴啊不然他能怎麼樣所以我的意思是說政府不應該去做這種事情啦政府應該要站在人民的立場說如果遇到類似什麼樣的情況 譬如說舉例我剛剛講 譬如說你們曾經做過的有一個路段你們叫動態檢舉就不可以只憑一張照片就你透過影片我就知道你們整排都在排隊嘛"},{"start":510.546,"end":529.341,"text":"所以你們要不要跟警察單位來協商說面對這種情況該怎麼執法然後讓以後類似像只要你要檢舉這種狀況你就必須要動態如果你是單張照片的一張照片我就不予受理這個要有一個"},{"start":531.348,"end":544.347,"text":"方法跟你們一個解方出來 不然人民就是常常會遇到這種遇到一個人 他就到處在檢舉這個我塞在車陣中 你要我要怎麼做市長你現在懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":545.805,"end":567.338,"text":"我想我了解委員剛才講的動態檢舉是我們上一次要檢舉民眾檢舉的時候希望不要單憑一張照片所以才會講到說檢舉的時候希望要有幾張照片來輔助那這裡又提到說這如果是警察自己的檢舉的影帶那其實就是一個video那個是真的是連貫的所以我想委員剛才提到的這樣會誤讓民眾這個"},{"start":574.394,"end":585.264,"text":"對 沒有錯 剛才司長講說要開放 但是路肩可能就是就是寬度不足的啦我沒有要開放路肩 你為什麼聽不懂來來來 我舉個例子 市長這一台車有沒有違規"},{"start":586.548,"end":612.937,"text":"這一台車有沒有違規他的輪子 這個是車道喔 這個是路肩那塞車的情況 就這一整排都把他移到這個車道來你們的主張是不是這個樣子我沒有要你開放路肩 我再講一次啦為什麼老師聽不懂我在講什麼公路局就已經聽不懂了 換次長講 還是聽不懂我只問你說 如果你現在這台車的司機是你請問你 你要停這裡跟整排都停到"},{"start":614.017,"end":642.092,"text":"車子壓到路肩還是你自己要停在這裡你告訴我這樣就好了這個塞車他為什麼會停在這裡他不是要開路肩啊我也要沒有要你開放路肩嘛我只問你說人民卡在這個車站當中車子後面的人檢舉他就要去想辦法自己去解決阿凱阿你都聽不下去我問你嘛這次如果是你 你要怎麼啦這人就是要檢舉違規因為他在路肩命令嘛我了解委員"},{"start":644.614,"end":657.391,"text":"這個舉例啦這個我們了解所以我剛才也有講到說相關的這樣的一個情形呢我們會請那個公路主管機關就是我們的私裡頭或者是公路局跟高工局跟警察機關就實務上是的"},{"start":659.053,"end":680.067,"text":"他們在檢舉上所遇到的問題我現在就問你交通部的態度我當然也同意你們這又不是你去開罰單不是你交通部去開罰單嘛但是你是公路的主管機關嘛所以我先問公路的主管機關態度是怎麼樣如果今天警察局署長有來我當然問署長啊那因為現在就你在這裡所以我當然問你嘛你的態度是什麼你要讓我知道啊"},{"start":680.747,"end":699.817,"text":"外台都其實就是交通部的一貫的態度檢舉 處罰民眾一定不是我們的本意啦所以在這個處罰上就是講他的合理性可責性的情況下才會來處罰那所以剛才我特別提到這牽涉到實務上的處理我會跟警察機關討論以後來律定一個"},{"start":702.458,"end":727.146,"text":"所以你現在知道卡通交通部是不是能夠理解這個狀況是不是同意說如果遇到這種特殊的情形法院叫做緊急避難啊交通部是不是同意說來交通部同意說這個特殊情形我們應該對於怎麼來開罰單應該有一個一致性的律定那這一致性的律定交通部同意但"},{"start":727.626,"end":748.938,"text":"要跟警察機關來溝通這我們會來跟警察機關這樣對不對 我說的這樣你贊成嗎贊成 贊成市長我只要叫你這樣而已 我也沒辦法來做不是你在開端的嘛但是我要跟你說這個人民很堅固啦我了解啦 所以我們做官就要站在人民的立場如果是換你將心比心換你是這一個現在還要你去上法院所以你自己去申訴"},{"start":750.523,"end":774.293,"text":"你不要做市長 你來做人民看你的手氣所以我剛剛有說我們原則上是不經意來處罰民眾我剛好說要主張開放路肩對不對 我沒有這個主張啊公路局來給我說明過了 我也同意這是特殊情形嘛我再舉個例子 如果這裡發生車禍民眾剛好前面有車禍 他開過來路肩因為要閃躲這個車禍嘛被照到"},{"start":780.476,"end":806.166,"text":"這個是不是特殊情形但是如果憑一張照片他就可能出現他把車禍現場避掉叫那個人民自已去想辦法我意思要跟你講的就是說交通部我們的政府官員不可以這樣嘛你那個執法單位你是公路主管機關所以有這麼多的案例民眾的抱怨甚至上法院了我只要求你們有一個態度啦"},{"start":807.045,"end":828.386,"text":"不是你們一步步都改觀嘛這要跟執法單位警政署來聯繫嘛但是你有這個態度你就會去做這件事嘛人民的堅固在哪裡站在人民的立場替他們想一想嘛將心比心你自己想如果是你我在這裡拍馬三字經啦那會酸酸到不會酸啦你們懂我在講什麼嗎"},{"start":832.66,"end":836.747,"text":"市長 現在麻煩你啦時間的關鍵我本來有兩件啦現在沒辦法 只剩下我們說一件而已啦下一件就等你們部長來再講好了好 謝謝好 謝謝蔡其章"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":583,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時26分）謝謝主席，麻煩請交通部陳政次。"],["主席：請陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：次長好。今天有兩個題目想來就教次長：第一個，這些年來媒體陸續也都有報導，特別是開放檢舉之後，媒體也都有報導，就是有關高速公路要下交流道的地方，其實省道跟高速公路都有這樣的情況，譬如說中部地區民眾常常使用的台76線，在下埔心交流道或是下埔鹽匝道時，都會出現壅塞情形，就會從下面一路往上塞，往上塞的結果就會塞到路肩，然後就會有人檢舉。","我查了一下過去的新聞資料，像TVBS媒體的報導「警察依檢舉影片開80張罰單，一整排車主都收到紅單」，本席最近收到的民眾陳情也是一樣，像這台紅色的車子要排隊，你看他的車輪已經有一輪在路肩上面，所以就被檢舉行駛路肩。次長，我想這不是今天才發生，過去法院也曾判決過。我查了一下資料，針對這樣的情況民眾有向法院提出訴訟，法院就認證說，排路肩是為了緊急避難，所以准予撤銷這個罰單。也因為法院准予撤銷罰單，所以公路局的作法裡面，包括去改快速道路或者高速公路路肩的情形，也有要求要動態檢舉，也就是不能憑一張照片來決定，而是透過動態就可以看到他是故意要走路肩還是被迫走路肩，所以動態的檢舉也是一種方法。","但是民眾到今天為止，譬如說這一張罰單，我有請公路單位來說明，公路單位還是覺得沒有辦法，還是要請民眾自己去申訴。次長，民眾不管士農工商都很忙，被開了罰單後，明明就是在路肩等待塞車，明明就是下不去，針對這樣的塞車情形，民眾還要主動去申訴，明明被開單子已經感覺很差了，他就沒有錯啊！而且政府應該解決塞車的問題啊！是塞車讓他下不去，他在那裡排隊還要被檢舉、還要被開罰單，被開罰單後，你還告訴他要自己去申訴！","所以本席今天透過這個質詢來就教次長，像這種叫做民怨，這種就是制度殺人，簡單講就是這樣子。次長，我看了過去的方法，譬如說，法院曾經認證並把它撤銷，當然這個不好啦！不宜叫大家、每一個人都上法院，這個制度的設計上，若是基於我把你開單了，反正之後你自己再去法院講，我覺得非常的不妥。有些路段或許適合在工程設計上去調整，但我也接受我們公路同仁的講法，有些路段不適合，所以開路肩是不對的、不可以，但如果因為塞車被迫必須要在那裡排隊，像我們也曾經在有些路段上，要求要動態檢舉，為什麼我們交通部不統一去宣布類似這種情形都應該要動態檢舉？請次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告一下，有關委員剛才舉例的這些照片，其實都牽涉到相關違規舉發的實務，而且除了公路主管機關之外，可能也要跟警察機關大家共同去討論一下。如果是剛才委員特別提到的緊急避難或者是什麼樣的情況下，他來行駛這樣的不得行駛路段，這個說不定有它的可行性，但是不是一定是這樣，這個可能要再討論一下。所以委員剛才特別提到的這個部分，我們可以帶回去請司裡頭，或是請公路局，或是請高公局，就是整個道路主管機關再跟警察機關，大家好好討論一下到底是包括什麼樣的情況，因為即便是在塞車的時候，所有的車輛還是要遵循相關的規定行駛。"],["蔡委員其昌：對！"],["陳次長彥伯：包括在什麼樣的情況下，所有的車子都跑到路肩了，這個可能也要去探究一下。"],["蔡委員其昌：對！"],["陳次長彥伯：說不定前面有什麼樣的狀況發生等等。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯！"],["陳次長彥伯：所以整個來講，可能不宜從這幾張照片就說可或是不可。"],["蔡委員其昌：次長，你可能完全沒有懂我剛剛花了很長時間講這事情是要告訴你什麼，我講過了，不可以走路肩，但有一些樣態是不得不走路肩。舉例來說，他如果一路從快車道排上來，簡單講，如果是匝道塞車，一定是一路從匝道一直排上來，他一定要排到最外側的車道，即前面一臺車排外側。大家會覺得，為了讓高速公路不要塞車，大家就會習慣、儘量往路肩靠，這是人性嘛！你現在懂我在講什麼了嗎？如果不是因為這個樣子而去行駛路肩，這當然要罰，但本席告訴你的是一種特別的樣態，就是自然而然地他的一個車輪可能一半就在路肩上面，因為他要讓快車道好開，為了塞車時不要塞到人家，大家就自然、儘量靠邊停，既然前面都靠邊停，我一個人難道就給他停在外側車道嗎？不可能！我會跟著前面的車靠邊停，所以當我靠邊停時，我的一個輪子可能就在路肩上面，甚至大家都停路肩的時候，我也會跟著停路肩，不可能我一個人就停外側車道，因為前面整排都塞車上來、都停路肩了。","我的意思是說，政府站在這些案例上面，這些易塞車路段，這個不是今天才有的個案，而是這樣就會有人檢舉，但民眾自然而然就會讓車子停在路肩上面，所以他被拍到、被檢舉，然後你叫他自己去申訴，不然他能怎麼樣呢？所以我的意思是說，政府不應該去做這種事情，政府應該要站在人民的立場，如果遇到類似什麼樣的事情，我剛剛有講，譬如說你們曾經做過的，有一個路段你們採取動態檢舉，就是不可以只憑一張照片，而是透過影片我就知道你們整排都在排隊。你們要不要跟警察單位協商面對這種情況該怎麼執法，以後只要你是要檢舉這種狀況就必須要動態，如果你只有拿單張照片，那我就不予受理？這應該要有一個方法，你們要拿出一個解方，不然人民就是常常會遇到這種事情，就是有一個人到處在檢舉這個，但是我就是塞在車陣中，你要我怎麼做？次長，你聽得懂我的意思嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想我了解委員的意思，你剛才講的動態檢舉是我們上一次說在民眾檢舉的時候，希望不要單憑一張照片，所以才會講到在檢舉的時候希望要有幾張照片來輔助。那這裡又提到如果是警察自己檢舉的影帶，那其實就是一個video，就真的是整個連貫的。委員剛才提到的這樣會誤讓民眾……對，沒有錯，剛才司長說要開放，但是這個路肩可能就是寬度不足啦！"],["蔡委員其昌：我沒有要開放路肩，你為什麼聽不懂？來，我舉個例子，次長，這一臺車有沒有違規？它的輪子在這裡，這個是車道，這個是路肩，那在塞車的情況下，就是把這一整排都移到這個車道來，你們的主張是不是這個樣子？我沒有要你開放路肩，我再講一次，為什麼老是聽不懂我在講什麼？公路局就已經聽不懂了，我換成跟次長講，你還是聽不懂，我只問你，如果現在這臺車的司機是你，請問你要停在這裡，跟整排車子都一樣輪子壓到路肩，還是你自己要停在這裡？你只要告訴我這個就好了，這是在塞車，他為什麼會停在這裡？他不是要開在路肩，我也沒有要你開放路肩，我只問你說，人民開車卡在這個車陣當中，後車的人檢舉他，他就要想辦法自己去解決，你們怎麼會都聽不懂呢？我問你嘛！這臺車如果是你在開的話，你要怎麼辦？這個人就是被檢舉違規，因為他的車在路肩上面。"],["陳次長彥伯：我了解委員舉的例子，這個我們了解，所以我剛才也有說對於這樣的情形，我們會請公路主管機關也就是我們的司、公路局、高公局跟警察機關就實務上關於檢舉所遇到的問題……"],["蔡委員其昌：我現在就是問你們交通部的態度，我當然也同意你們講的，這又不是你交通部去開罰單，但是你是公路的主管機關，所以我先問公路主管機關的態度是怎麼樣，如果今天警政署署長有來，我當然問署長，但是因為現在就是你在這裡，所以我當然問你嘛！你要讓我知道你的態度是什麼啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：我的態度其實就是交通部一貫的態度，處罰民眾一定不是我們的本意，所以在這個處罰上，就是在有合理性、可責性的情況下才會來處罰。剛才委員特別提到的牽涉到實務上的處理，我會跟警察機關討論以後來律定一個處理的原則。"],["蔡委員其昌：你現在只要跟我說交通部是不是能夠理解這個狀況。"],["陳次長彥伯：理解，充分了解。"],["蔡委員其昌：如果遇到這種特殊的情形，法院稱為緊急避難，交通部是不是同意這是特殊情形，我們對於怎麼來開罰單應該要有一個一致性的律定，那交通部同意做一致性的律定，但要跟警察機關來溝通？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個我們會來跟警察機關……"],["蔡委員其昌：這樣對不對？像我說的這樣，你們贊成嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：贊成。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有啦！次長，我只是叫你要這樣而已，也不是你在開單嘛！但是我要跟你說，人民很艱苦啦！"],["陳次長彥伯：我了解。"],["蔡委員其昌：做官的人就要站在人民的立場，要將心比心，如果換成你是這一個人，現在還要你去上法院，變成你要自己去申訴，你不要做次長，換你來做人民，看你會不會生氣。"],["陳次長彥伯：所以我剛才有說，我們原則上是不輕易來處罰民眾。"],["蔡委員其昌：我有說要主張開放路肩嗎？我沒有提出這個主張啊！對不對？公路局來跟我說明過了，我也同意，因為這是特殊情形嘛！我再舉個例子，如果這裡發生車禍，民眾因為要閃躲這個車禍而開過來路肩，剛好被照到，這個是不是特殊情形？但是如果只憑一張照片，就可能出現把車禍現場避掉，叫那個人民自己去想辦法，我要跟你說的意思就是交通部、我們的政府官員不能這樣嘛！你們要跟執法單位講，你們是公路主管機關，有這麼多的案例，民眾在抱怨，甚至上法院了，我只要求你們有一個態度，你們沒辦法解決，這要跟執法單位、警政署來聯繫，但是你有這個態度，你就會去做這件事，看人民的痛苦在哪裡，站在人民的立場替他們想一想嘛！要將心比心，你自己想，如果是你的話，我在這裡也不好意思罵三字經，即使要罵，也罵到不想罵啦！你們懂我在講什麼嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：了解。"],["蔡委員其昌：次長，再麻煩你，好嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：沒問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為時間的關係，我本來要問兩件事情，現在沒辦法，我們只能說一件事情而已，下一件就等你們部長來再講好了！好，謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝蔡其昌副院長。","現在請林俊憲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-11","speakers":["林國成","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","許智傑","陳素月","蔡其昌","何欣純","林俊憲","張啓楷","廖先翔","李昆澤","游顥","黃健豪","陳雪生","魯明哲","徐富癸","邱若華","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員吳宗憲等17人、(二)委員賴士葆等28人、(三)委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具「人\n工智慧基本法草案」及(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工智慧發展及管理條例草案」案；二、審查\n( 一) 委員林俊憲等23 人擬具「公路法第二十七條、第二十八條及第七十五條條文修正草案」、\n(二)委員陳冠廷等18人、(三)委員徐富癸等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」、\n(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「公路法第三十三條條文修正草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團、(六)委\n員馬文君等19 人、( 七) 委員邱若華等17 人分別擬具「公路法第三十九條之一條文修正草案」、\n(八)委員何欣純等18人擬具「公路法第四十六條及第六十條之一條文修正草案」、(九)委員王義\n川等16人擬具「公路法第六十五條條文修正草案」及(十)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「公路法第七十\n二條條文修正草案」案；三、審查 ( 一 ) 委員林俊憲等 22 人擬具「停車場法第四條條文修正草\n案」、(二)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」及(三)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「停車場法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。【本日會議僅針對開會事由二及三進行合併詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1144802_00001"}}},{"id":"161195","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161195","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d52fce977ba5b40c63063ba08a40ece61fc394796d2191c023ff710b917354ebcad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:34:09 - 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那個立法院我們上週通過了紀念日及節日實施條例增加了五個國定假日那我想請教人事長 那人事總署何時會重新公告今年新的行政機關辦公日曆表"},{"start":36.392,"end":52.23,"text":"這個大概分成幾個部分第一個就是35通過以後要總統要公告嘛那總統公告之後我們就實施可是事實上在上個禮拜五之後我們人總已經有試泥今年"},{"start":53.371,"end":76.279,"text":"因為今年下半年大概有三個節日一個禮拜六一個禮拜天一個禮拜四那禮拜四的部分大家就會來討論要不要移動下的問題事實上我們已經有做一些初步的一個規劃到最後還是要簽行政院核定那今年同樣的我們也在做一些按照"},{"start":77.279,"end":100.336,"text":"往常明年的一個行事曆的排定會在今年的六月底那我們現在也試著看看把今年下半年的異動跟明年的一併在六月底前要送行政院讓行政院核定公告因為大家要明年的班表要怎樣排會比較方便不過這個過程中可能也要跟委員報告因為這個牽涉到"},{"start":101.056,"end":112.127,"text":"金融業還有整個廣大的中小企業各個行業還有我們可能會找相關部會大家一起來討論行程共識聽聽看大家的意見尤其"},{"start":114.741,"end":129.09,"text":"明年增加的五天事實上對偏鄉的小孩子的受教權事實上是有影響還有他們明年一些國中小的那種上課過年的時間我們要跟教育部來協調要怎樣會比較"},{"start":131.857,"end":154.133,"text":"一個 大家的共識度會比較高啦共識度會比較高非常謝謝我們人事長可見人事長已經有開始做充分的一個規劃跟準備了嘛因應現在一個我們新通過的紀念日跟節日實施條例實際上我覺得全國民眾現在也對人事長有很大的一個期盼就是很多細節趕快把它擬定好 好不好"},{"start":155.293,"end":175.251,"text":"那我想請教 具體來說 你剛才已經講到了嘛比方說今年下半年新增教師節台灣光復祭 金門古寧頭大節紀念日還有行縣紀念日 這三個國定假日那教師節是遇到禮拜天嘛 對不對然後光復節是遇到禮拜六嘛那補假的規劃會是怎麼樣去做補假"},{"start":175.771,"end":203.511,"text":"按照目前的按照目前還沒有修改的規定是如果是禮拜六的話會前面那一天放假如果是禮拜天是後面一天就禮拜一放假所以就在前後找一天那另外一個大家也關切那就是小年夜小年夜是以彈性過去修法前是以彈性放假的方式處理那就是還要補班但是明年2026年小年夜是週日"},{"start":205.132,"end":225.963,"text":"請問他的補假會補在哪一天因為剛好是放在禮拜天嘛會補在哪一天那明年的農曆初四是星期五是不是就會補在這個星期五這一天那這樣的話就可以讓明年的春節假期從六天增加為九天那如果不補假是不是在初四就實施所謂的彈性放假呢"},{"start":227.331,"end":244.361,"text":"這個人事長有這部分有討論規劃有有有這個有討論過這個部分我們已經內部有開過好幾次會啦那現在可能再去找相關單位大家因為遊戲規則有沒有傾向目前以所謂的人事處總處的"},{"start":246.303,"end":267.324,"text":"目前沒有傾向因為我覺得很多議題要討論應該不要自己太多的定見去干擾別人的一些想法事實上我們的角色就是傾聽像經濟部或者勞動部或者金管會或者教育部相關部會的聲音然後我們來找一個最"},{"start":268.385,"end":286.424,"text":"最大公約數因為時間還有啦坦白講也沒有那麼急迫要任市長馬上做出規劃但是你要多聽幾個單位也可以但是民眾確實對於這個小年夜是不是變成是連續的假期一定是很關心嘛 對不對這應該是人之常情嘛"},{"start":286.564,"end":304.488,"text":"我已經收到很多的關心了我也收到很多的關心大家已經開始預劃明年的休假這是大家都引頸氣盼的事情所以任市長如果各單位的意見徵詢完之後能夠趕快讓國人知道那好規劃明年的假期我們會盡快來處理"},{"start":306.829,"end":334.842,"text":"那另外在這邊我也必須要說一件事就是說這次在野黨來一起為民眾爭取到還假漁民增加五天假那我其實有一點遺憾啦因為我每次發言我都是希望說民進黨的朋友能夠一起來支持那到底要放哪些天作為放假是可以討論的可是呢我想要請教人事長請問行政院有沒有版本在這一次的這個紀念日跟節日實施條例有沒有行政院版本"},{"start":335.727,"end":357.009,"text":"我覺得這個可能要問內政部,因為這一個...不會啦,人事長...沒有沒有,我還說,我不知道法律主管機關是內政部啦我當然知道,可是假日這個是內政部有關,你也有關係我剛其實上來就知道,你可能要推給內政部啦我不是推,因為你講尊重,法律一定好料他是上游,我是下游啊就沒有嘛"},{"start":357.925,"end":379.783,"text":"沒錯吧那委員的情報比我還完整我不曉得所以我要講一件事情就是說如果說今天喔如果行政院反對這件事情民進黨反對這件事情那就直接說反對然後一直說我們的民進黨主張的假日版本沒有被討論問題是行政院連版本都沒有請問哪裡討論"},{"start":381.044,"end":408.826,"text":"那另外一件事情,因為這個過程其實人事長你也上來被詢過幾次啦雖然說你說是內政部主導的業務,但因為人事總處還是有業務相關嘛所以這個題目其實上我們也會來詢問這個人事總處的意見嘛那我也要跟大家講,很抱歉民進黨雖然有版本,但是在我們修法的過程當中直接就撤案啦所以我回頭還是要講一件事情就是說到底該不該放假,當然會有兩面意見嘛,對不對"},{"start":409.386,"end":425.716,"text":"有人贊成有人反對 這個其實無可厚非啦那我們認為說過去我的主張一直是一貫啦如果今天台灣 我就問人事長台灣現在我們的工時在亞洲這只輸給新加坡嘛 排行第二名嘛 對不對"},{"start":426.896,"end":444.054,"text":"上次委員已經有給我們這個數據全球排行第六如果我們的公使是全球倒數第六名然後是亞洲倒數第二名說真的我也會舉雙手雙腳反對今天來增加國定假日"},{"start":444.554,"end":452.5,"text":"為什麼?因為我們工時已經是最低了沒有資格來談增加國定假日可是事實就不是這樣嘛那高工時變成國恥的時候我們要貫徹蔡英文前總統說勞工是心裡最軟的一塊那就要消滅這個國恥那增加國定假日減少大家工時確實是一個辦法當然我們也認為有不同意見也是好事情可是"},{"start":468.132,"end":488.342,"text":"今天最忌諱的事情最遺憾的事情是那你明明就是反對這個事情那你就直接跟我講說其實勞工的工時亞洲第二全球第六這是國家無上的光榮勞工不值得放假我們就是堅決反對增加國定假日如果說今天行政院把這個態度拿出來那就是大家好好讓人民來決定誰的立場比較對"},{"start":490.123,"end":514.443,"text":"那不能夠說過程當中你連版本都沒有然後你有版本把它撤掉最後通過了在野黨的版本然後跟我講說你沒有讓我們的這個假日能夠得到討論我覺得這樣是不公道的總而言之不管怎麼樣講反正現在已經通過修法期待我們任市長把休假規劃做出來讓全民一起來擁有這一個小確幸謝謝您 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1031,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時34分）有請蘇人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["羅委員智強：人事長早。立法院上週通過了紀念日及節日實施條例，增加了5個國定假日，我想請教人事長，人事總處何時會重新公告今年新的行政機關辦公日曆表？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個大概會分成幾個部分：第一個，三讀通過以後，總統要公告，總統公告之後，我們就實施。事實上，在上個禮拜五之後人總已經有試擬，因為今年下半年大概有3個節日，一個禮拜六、一個禮拜天、一個禮拜四，禮拜四的部分，大家就會來討論要不要移動假的問題，事實上，我們已經有做一些初步的規劃，最後還是要簽行政院核定。今年同樣地我們也在做這件事，按照往常，明年的行事曆排定會在今年6月底，我們現在也試著看看把今年下半年的異動和明年的，一併在6月底前送行政院，讓行政院核定公告，這樣大家明年的班表要怎樣排會比較方便。不過在這個過程中，可能也要跟委員報告，因為這個牽涉到金融業，還有整個廣大的中小企業、各個行業，我們會找相關部會一起來討論，形成共識，聽聽看大家的意見。尤其明年增加了5天，對偏鄉小孩子的受教權事實上是有影響的，還有關於明年國中小的上課、過年時間，我們要跟教育部再來協調要怎樣做，大家的共識度會比較高。"],["羅委員智強：非常謝謝我們的人事長，可見人事長已經開始做充分的規劃跟準備了，因應現在我們新通過的紀念日及節日實施條例，事實上，我覺得全國民眾也對人事長有很大的期盼，很多細節趕快把它擬定好，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教，具體來說，你剛才已經講到，比方今年下半年新增教師節、臺灣光復暨金門古寧頭大捷紀念日，還有行憲紀念日這3個國定假日，教師節是遇到禮拜天，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["羅委員智強：光復節是遇到禮拜六，補假的規劃會是怎麼樣去做補假？會放在哪裡？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：按照目前還沒有修改的規定，如果是禮拜六的話會前面那一天放假，如果是禮拜天是後面一天，也就是禮拜一放假。"],["羅委員智強：所以就是在前後找一天，另外一個大家也關切的就是小年夜，過去修法前是以彈性放假的方式處理，就是還要補班，但是明（2026）年小年夜是周日，請問它的補假會補在哪一天，因為剛好是放在禮拜天，會補在哪一天？明年的農曆初四是星期五，是不是會補在星期五這一天，這樣的話就可以讓明年的春節假期從6天增加為9天，如果不補假是不是在初四就實施所謂的彈性放假呢？人事長，這部分有討論、規劃嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有！這個有討論過，這個部分我們內部已經有開過好幾次會，現在可能再去找相關單位，因為遊戲規則有一點改……"],["羅委員智強：目前以人事總處的角度來講，有沒有傾向？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前沒有傾向，因為我覺得很多議題要討論，應該自己不要有太多的定見去干擾別人的一些想法，事實上，我們的角色就是傾聽像經濟部、或者勞動部、或者金管會、或者教育部相關部會的聲音，然後我們找出一個最大公約數。"],["羅委員智強：好，因為時間還有啦！坦白講，也沒有那麼急迫要人事長馬上做出規劃，你要多聽幾個單位也可以，但是民眾確實對於小年夜是不是變成連續的假期，一定是很關心嘛，對不對？這應該是人之常情嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我已經收到很多的關心了。"],["羅委員智強：對，我也收到很多的關心，大家已經開始預劃明年的休假，這是大家都引頸企盼的事情，所以人事長，如果各單位的意見徵詢完之後，能夠趕快讓國人知道，好規劃明年的假期。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會儘快來處理。"],["羅委員智強：另外在這邊，我也必須要說一件事，這次在野黨一起為民眾爭取到「還假於民」，增加5天假，我其實有一點遺憾，因為我每次發言都是希望民進黨的朋友能夠一起來支持，當然放哪些天作為放假是可以討論的，可是我想請教人事長，在這一次的紀念日及節日實施條例，請問有沒有行政院版本？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得這個可能要問內政部，因為這一個……"],["羅委員智強：不會啦！人事長，你怎麼可能不知道？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，我跟你講我不知道，因為法律主管機關是內政部。"],["羅委員智強：我當然知道，可是假日這件事跟內政部有關，跟你也有關係，我其實剛上來就知道你可能要推給內政部啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我不是推，因為這是尊重人家，當他們訂好法律後，他是上游，我是下游。"],["羅委員智強：好啦，我直接跟你講就沒有嘛！沒錯吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員的情報比我還完整，這我不曉得。"],["羅委員智強：所以我要講一件事，今天如果行政院反對這件事情、民進黨反對這件事情，那就直接說反對，然後又一直說民進黨主張的假日版本沒有被討論，問題是行政院連版本都沒有，請問哪裡討論？另外一件事情，因為這個過程其實人事長也有上來備詢過幾次，雖然你說是內政部主導的業務，但因為人事總處還是有業務相關，所以這個題目，我們也會來詢問人事總處的意見。我也要跟大家講，很抱歉，民進黨雖然有版本，但是在我們修法過程當中直接就撤案，所以我回頭還是要講一件事情，到底該不該放假，當然會有兩面意見，對不對？有人贊成，有人反對，這個其實無可厚非，我的主張一直是一貫，我就問人事長，現在臺灣的工時在亞洲只輸給新加坡，排行第二名嘛，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：上次委員已經有給我們這個數據。"],["羅委員智強：有問過了，對嘛！在全球是排行第六，如果我們的工時是全球倒數第六名，然後是亞洲倒數第二名，說真的，我也會舉雙手雙腳反對今天來增加國定假日，為什麼？因為我們工時已經是最低了，沒有資格來談增加國定假日，可是事實就不是這樣嘛！當高工時變成國恥的時候，我們要貫徹蔡英文前總統說的：勞工是心裡最軟的一塊。那就要消滅這個國恥，增加國定假日，減少大家工時，確實是一個辦法。當然我們也認為有不同意見也是好事情，可是今天最忌諱的事情、最遺憾的事情是你明明就反對這件事情，你就直接跟我講其實勞工的工時亞洲第二、全球第六，這是國家無上的光榮，勞工不值得放假，我們就堅決反對增加國定假日，如果說今天行政院把這個態度拿出來，大家好好讓人民來決定誰的立場比較對。那不能夠說在過程當中，你連版本都沒有，然後你有版本把它撤掉，最後通過了在野黨的版本，跟我講「你沒有讓我們的假日能夠得到討論」，我覺得這樣是不公道的。","總而言之，不管怎麼樣講，反正現在已經通過修法，期待人事長把休假規劃做出來，讓全民一起來擁有這個小確幸，謝謝您。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員詢答。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","所有登記發言的委員都已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關的資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","剛剛翁曉玲委員，其實你提到的那個部分是在這裡，他們跟你答復得不清楚，這本報告裡面有提到，其他提供的報告是比較簡略的。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-16","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","吳宗憲","沈發惠","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra 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政委也開會那現在就等行政院排入整個院會議程然後會送大院整個程序已經進行到這裡了"},{"start":178.047,"end":206.118,"text":"只是進行到行政院所以根本還沒有說到立法院所以我們根本還沒有看到你們的草案草案我們有對外公告大概有八點因為我想很多委員很關心的是參與的那個諮詢會本來是基層的公教人員代表是沒有我們這次增加了四位進來這是當初的一個要求我們都已經列入到整個新的這個八"},{"start":207.678,"end":224.643,"text":"八點裡面都已經把他拉進來了因為這涉及到就是這一千萬到底能不能解凍那麼當時的要求是說你們要把草案送到立法院可是看起來你們現在都還在行政院會議裡面可能都還沒有排入行政院的會議"},{"start":226.025,"end":249.245,"text":"所以我想這個部分可能之後要請你們把這個草案送到立法院之後那麼我們才可以來做預算案的解凍否則的話不給你們壓力也不知道這個軍公教人員的待遇調整條例草案會什麼時候才會送到立法院"},{"start":249.485,"end":261.846,"text":"不過我這裡真的要拜託委員要支持因為就像學生在寫考卷一樣考卷我已經交到老師那裡老師還沒有批我想責任不能怪在學生嘛"},{"start":264.308,"end":271.473,"text":"因為老師有時候什麼時候改什麼時候你們是公正的第三方我們當時給你們要求是說是你們要盡速的要提出軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案我們已經提出了我們已經提出了又不是提出道立法院"},{"start":287.565,"end":299.811,"text":"因為裡面會有一些行政程序要走啊所以就是說你們要盡速的跟行政院院長反映到行政院會那裡要盡速排案有跟行政院那一邊報告過了然後也請求盡快能夠排入整個院會的議程因為排入行政院院會議程以後才會送到大院已經有拜託好幾次了因為行政院會有公正的考量今天我是在幫忙人事長非常謝謝委員的建議提議"},{"start":317.039,"end":335.367,"text":"一定要讓院長知道不要一天到晚都只是會去這個下鄉宣講搞大罷免這重要的案子院會該排就排而不是一直拖拖拉拉的從去年到現在已經有多久的時間了好除了這個案子之外還有另外一個就是有關於職安的防護辦法修正草案跟軍公教人員的公務人員有關的這個其實只是辦法啦當時也是說希望人事總署這邊能夠盡速提出你們什麼時候會提呢"},{"start":345.803,"end":370.063,"text":"這個保訓會裡面在公務人員保障法已經在5月6號送到大宴來了5月6號已經送到大宴來了所以你的意思講說這個職安的就公務人員的安全及衛生防護辦法的話這部分的話就跟人種沒有關係是嗎不是沒有關係有關係可是這個法規的主管機關在考試宴那考試宴已經在5月6號已經送到大宴來了"},{"start":371.363,"end":399.803,"text":"好那所以你的意思講說就你們的部分你們的階段已經完成了嗎安慰辦法要匯辦我們行政院然後因為匯嫌而已因為安慰辦法是在兩院匯嫌那他的上有的那個法例公務人員保障法已經5月6號送到大院來的好的了解了好OK那接下來呢我要請法務部對好是謝謝任市長"},{"start":407.904,"end":410.506,"text":"是 部長在這邊有一個議題我想要請您再幫忙澄清事實上這次的預算凍結案裡面有一個是涉及到律師職前訓練的當時法務部這裡應該是編了300多萬後來我們是凍結了50萬"},{"start":428.817,"end":439.244,"text":"可是在今年3月初的時候全聯會自己就發了一個新聞稿講說我們這次有關於律師職權訓練的預算案因為"},{"start":445.563,"end":471.149,"text":"法務部刪除了該部的檢查行政業務的費用的10%所以呢整個的之前訓練的預算就下修為297萬然後看起來又把這個責任又怪罪到立法院請問一下我想請問部長你們現在是對於律師之前訓練的這個經費是不是真的是有下修"},{"start":472.422,"end":483.667,"text":"是有少給全綠會嗎跟委員報告像原來編的預算是331萬因為統三的關係所以統三10%所以變成是預算是297合定是2979000元那這部分是有有凍結50萬可是統三的部分的話你們自己中間可以去做一些調配嘛對不對你們為什麼要去刪這個"},{"start":500.496,"end":503.058,"text":"律師值錢委外訓練費用我們當時並沒有說要統刪並沒有刪這個部分如果要刪50萬的話我當時就直接我們就刪了我們只是凍結"},{"start":511.496,"end":532.681,"text":"跟委員報告因為這一次去年以上次上個年度來講的話因為預算不符因為實際核算的決算的是386他是預算數是331但是覺得是386萬餘顏那預算不準是有檢查室的業務費的流但是這一次是沒辦法沒辦法流用的"},{"start":536.583,"end":554.322,"text":"因為最主要是沒辦法留用那另外這次那個委辦的預算我們是編了六百八十七萬四千元律師職員訓練是佔了百分之四十八所以這部分的確是因為不足所以這次我們就減減了變成是辦五次的一個職權的一個訓練的一個梯次"},{"start":554.602,"end":570.495,"text":"部長我想要講的就是我們其實當時每筆預算都好好看包含項目細項的部分我們刪的是檢查事務費用包含宣傳費或是其他一些費用並沒有要去刪這個律師的委外訓練費用當時只是說凍結50萬可是因為你們的捅刪而且你們釋放出錯誤的訊息以至於讓外界認為說是我們立法院刪了這個律師執行訓練的費用這50萬"},{"start":584.438,"end":613.043,"text":"對我之前我就已經有說這防部次長的這種說法根本就是在造謠你們自己內部的調整跟我們立法院有什麼關係是你們認為說律師值錢訓練費用這部分是可以少所以你們自己把它又刪了然後讓人家本來是一年半六次在去年就已經宣告說一年半六次的這個踢訓後來變成是就是少一個踢次變成是五個踢次那中間又有一些踢次的時間的日期不是很恰當"},{"start":613.783,"end":615.505,"text":"經過本席請你們法務部來協調後來才調整出一個比較適當的梯子但是現在仍然是辦五個梯子"},{"start":623.462,"end":628.466,"text":"就是用線上跟那個實體的一個上對現在總之就是辦五個梯子嘛所以我們原來的意思是說你們331萬的預算我們凍結50萬你們提出專案報告之後就可以解凍還是應該要以辦六個梯子為主結果你們現在自己刪了刪了之後又已經公告現在只辦五個梯子所以本席的想法是說那現在我給你解凍這50萬是什麼意義"},{"start":645.077,"end":664.317,"text":"沒有意義啦 你這50萬看起來你們又流去做什麼宣傳費沒有沒有 跟委員報告因為我們是一個委辦會用是編了687萬4千元那我們現在是同3%所以其他的各項的委辦會全部都是3%所以那個律師職權的訓練費正好佔這一筆的委辦會的48%"},{"start":669.083,"end":681.139,"text":"48%所以這邊如果全部統三的話我們沒辦法再去從其他的委辦的項目再去去支應就是這樣去留意我跟你講就算是你刪了10%的部分"},{"start":683.926,"end":707.646,"text":"這個事實上你們現在第一次也都縮減了所以看起來也沒有解凍這50萬的必要因為你們就少辦了好我跟你講這個部分我們之後再來談那更重要的是說按照律師法的規定我之前就已經講了109年通過的律師法當時說之前訓練的這個辦理律師之前訓練是要由全國律師公會來辦理"},{"start":709.528,"end":720.085,"text":"所以相關的辦法也應該要提早要提出來那你們的公告呢 之前一直沒有公告那我最近看到了 行政院現在已經公告了嘛116年要實施"},{"start":722.469,"end":734.011,"text":"這已經報行政院核定已經報行政院核定嗎?已經看到了嗎?116年才公告實施核定了那個116年會1月1號會來所以也就是說從109年到115年的這麼多年的時間都是法務部在出這筆費用而不是由全國律師公會出這筆費用對不對?這個是一個委辦的一個費用"},{"start":747.185,"end":774.348,"text":"委辦的費用我從...對,沒有錯,就是由法務部來支應這個委辦費可是從律師法當時的修正裡面看不出來是由法務部要委辦而是由律師公會自己要去出這筆錢至於說辦理之前訓練的費用是不是要由律師自己負擔一些費用這個是當時你們在修法時候的情況嘛你當時修法為什麼要修法"},{"start":775.149,"end":792.221,"text":"就是因為想說之後這個基礎訓練一個月的基礎訓練上課的費用可能就是由全國律師公會來辦理那麼至於他要不要跟這些來受訓的學生然後來收一些上課的費用就是當時的想法他們可能會要來受律師訓練這些"},{"start":796.604,"end":812.302,"text":"這個才剛考上的律師學生們他們要自己要負擔一些費用結果呢你們一直遲遲的不去公告相關的這個辦法不去公告這個相關的作業規則那麼反而都是由國家一直來出這筆錢"},{"start":813.581,"end":838.275,"text":"那個更委員報告那個已經公告了那再來的話就是要有全聯會來處理好我希望這個辦法趕快提出來因為本席也要看已經施行了這辦法已經施行了不好意思那之後再提出來你們的辦法給我來看好謝謝部長那接下來我還要問一下矯正署最後矯正署今天有來嗎"},{"start":850.459,"end":857.865,"text":"針對矯正署的部分本席在之前有看到我們上次的預算案第398項的預算案你們有提個專案報告在當時的預算是凍結"},{"start":865.652,"end":889.074,"text":"辦理矯正醫療及訓練業務3000萬這筆錢本來是編了9億我們凍結了3000萬然後希望你們能夠提出一個專案報告那麼特別是針對矯正署保外醫治的審查機制來做一個專案報告請問署長你有看到你們提出的專案報告內容嗎有你們寫了多少字你知道嗎"},{"start":897.75,"end":914.483,"text":"可能這個委員看的那個是比較簡要的會有一個專案報告專案報告呢9頁我怎麼沒有看到我這裡只有只有兩頁而且呢不到400字你們是今天才提的嗎"},{"start":917.625,"end":939.28,"text":"是什麼時候寫 是跟我這邊講的398的這個案子一樣嗎專案報告可是你們提供給我們的書面資料就是這兩頁啊而且這兩頁裡面你們只寫了不到400個字耶然後就要解凍3000萬然後內容非常的空白你們法規抄給我 抄給我們這些委員們看因為就整個勞務部有很多案子我們這邊業績是蠻多的"},{"start":948.103,"end":972.636,"text":"別的解凍案其實也都是寫得很完整你們這個時代是太草率了啦 對不對然後你們說截至到114年3月31號保外醫治的在外人數504人在外超過9年的有32人你們總是要列個表大概是什麼樣的情況竟然有保外就醫超過9年而且甚至更長的你們都沒有寫出來啊"},{"start":976.963,"end":997.551,"text":"你們這樣子的一個專案報告方式讓本席非常不能認同報告委員 這個專案報告裡面有列表委員可以再詳細看一下好 希望你待會把你們所謂的9頁的報告給我們所有委員看好 沒問題可能放水這樣的一個解凍案是 沒問題好 以上謝謝委員好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":953,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時17分）好，謝謝莊委員，每次都給我鼓勵。"],["主席：這是真心的。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，謝謝。好，今天因為是針對整個預算的詢答，所以我就事論事針對預算的部分，首先我想先請人事長。"],["主席：請蘇人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，人事長好。我首先先問您，我們在上禮拜通過了紀念日及假日實施條例，我們有看到新聞上面，您有說這次通過的國定假日的修法會有一些窒礙難行的地方，是不是可以請您說明一下，為什麼會有窒礙難行？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有窒礙難行。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有窒礙難行，所以我們現在多增加5天的國定假日，人事總處應該是可以做適當的安排嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：整個法令等總統三讀通過以後，我們會按照法令的規定，事實上，我們前幾天已經有試排了一些未來假日可能會落在哪一個位置，針對相關的細節，我們已經有做第一版的試排。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以聽您這樣說的話，行政院應該不會針對這個案子提起覆議案吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：很抱歉，我沒有辦法幫行政院來答復這個。"],["翁委員曉玲：不過，我從您剛剛的回答裡面大概可以知道，現在民進黨政府應該是不會針對這個案提起覆議，如果提起覆議的話，不就是成為全民公敵了嗎？","好，接下來我針對兩個預算案的部分，這次的審查預算，當然人總的案子很多啦，其中有兩個案子是本席比較關心的，就是當時我們有凍結人總一個有關於「人事行政之政策規劃執行及發展」1,000萬的案子，那時候有請人總儘速提出「軍公教人員待遇調整條例」，請問一下，你們現在這樣子的法案進度如何？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，因為在上一年3月時在大院有提出這樣一個要求以後，我們就開始進行邀請這些利害團體來開會，然後也辦公聽會，各方面都已經完成。在上一年年底，我們針對整個草案已經完成人權和性平的評估，然後政委也開會，現在就等行政院排入整個院會議程，然後會送大院，整個程序已經進行到這裡了。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，只是進行到行政院，所以根本還沒有送到立法院，所以我們根本還沒有看到你們的草案。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們有對外公告草案，大概有8點，因為很多委員很關心的是參與的諮詢會，本來沒有基層的公教人員代表，我們這次增加了4位進來，這是當初的要求，我們都已經列入到新的8點裡面，都已經把它納進來了。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，因為這涉及到這1,000萬到底能不能解凍，當時的要求是你們要把這個草案送到立法院，可是看起來你們現在都還在行政院會議裡面，可能都還沒有排入行政院的會議，所以我想這部分可能要請你們把這個草案送到立法院之後，我們才可以來做預算案的解凍，否則的話，不給你們壓力，也不知道軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案什麼時候才會送到立法院。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不過，我這裡真的拜託委員要支持，因為就像學生在寫考卷一樣，考卷我已經交到老師那裡，老師還沒有批，責任不能怪在學生嘛！"],["翁委員曉玲：不是……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為老師什麼時候改……"],["翁委員曉玲：那你認為我們是校長了，是不是？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：你們是公正的第三方！"],["翁委員曉玲：我們是公正的第三方？這個案子是我們審的，我們當時對你們的要求是請你們儘速提出軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案到立法院……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們已經提出了！"],["翁委員曉玲：你們提出，又不是提出到立法院……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為裡面會有一些行政程序要走啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：所以就是說你們要儘速跟行政院院長反應，行政院會那裡要儘速排案，責任不在我們立法院。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有跟行政院那邊報告過了，然後也請求儘快能夠排入整個院會的議程，因為排入行政院院會議程以後才會送到大院，已經有拜託好幾次了，因為行政院會有綜整的考量。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以今天我是在幫忙人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝，非常謝謝委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：這個議題一定要讓院長知道，不要一天到晚都只是會下鄉宣講搞大罷免。這個重要的案子，院會該排就排，而不是一直拖拖拉拉的，從去年到現在已經有多久的時間？除了這個案子之外，還有另外一個就是有關於職安防護辦法的修正草案，就是跟公務人員有關的，這個其實只是辦法，當時也是希望人事總處能夠儘速提出，你們什麼時候會提呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：保訓會裡面針對公務人員保障法已經在5月6號送到大院來了！"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你的意思講說公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法的部分就跟人總沒有關係，是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不是沒有關係，有關係，可是這個法規的主管機關在考試院，考試院已經在5月6號送到大院來了。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以你的意思是說，就你們的部分，在你們的階段已經完成了？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：安衛辦法要會辦我們行政院，因為會銜而已，安衛辦法是在兩院會銜，它的上游法律──公務人員保障法5月6號已經送到大院來了。"],["翁委員曉玲：好的，了解了，OK！接下來我要請法務部，謝謝人事長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，部長，在這邊有一個議題，我想要請您再幫忙澄清。事實上，這次的預算凍結案裡面，有涉及到律師職前訓練，當時法務部應該是編了三百多萬，後來我們凍結了50萬，可是在今年3月初時，全律會自己就發了一個新聞稿講說，有關這次律師職前訓練的預算案，因為法務部刪除了該部的檢察行政業務費用的10%，所以整個職前訓練的預算就下修為297萬，看起來又把這個責任怪罪到立法院。我想請問部長，你們現在對於律師職前訓練的經費是不是真的有下修？是有少給全律會嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，原來編的預算是331萬。"],["翁委員曉玲：是的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為統刪的關係，統刪10%，所以變成預算核定是297萬9,000元，這部分是有凍結50萬。"],["翁委員曉玲：可是統刪的部分，你們自己中間可以去做一些調配，對不對？你們為什麼要去刪律師職前委外訓練費用？我們當時並沒有刪這個部分，如果要刪50萬，我當時就直接刪了，我們只是凍結。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，因為以上個年度來講，實際決算是386萬，它的預算數是331萬，但是決算是三百八十六萬餘元，而預算不只是有檢察司業務費的流用，而且這一次最主要是因為沒辦法流用。另外，這次委辦的預算，我們編了687萬4,000元，律師職前訓練占48%，這部分的確是因為不足，所以這次我們就減了，變成辦5次職前訓練梯次。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長，我想要講的就是，我們當時其實每一筆預算都有好好看，包含項目、細項的部分，我們刪的是檢察事務費用，包含宣傳費或是其他一些費用，並沒有要刪律師委外訓練費用，當時只是說凍結50萬，可是因為你們統刪而且釋放出錯誤的訊息，以致於讓外界認為是我們立法院刪了律師職前訓練費用50萬。我之前就已經有說，法務部次長的這種說法根本就是在造謠，你們自己內部的調整跟我們立法院有什麼關係？是你們認為律師職前訓練費用這部分可以少，所以你們自己把它刪了，讓人家本來在去年就已經宣告一年辦6次梯訓，後來變成少1個梯次，變成是5個梯次，中間又有一些梯次的時間、日期不是很恰當，經過本席請法務部來協調，後來才調整出一個比較適當的梯次，但是現在仍然是辦5個梯次。"],["鄭部長銘謙：就是用線上跟實體上課。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，總之現在就是辦5個梯次，所以原來的意思是331萬的預算，我們凍結50萬，你們提出專案報告之後就可以解凍，還是應該要以辦6個梯次為主，結果你們現在自己刪了，刪了之後又已經公告只辦5個梯次，所以本席的想法是我給你解凍這50萬有什麼意義？沒有意義啦！這50萬看起來你們又流去作為宣傳費。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，跟委員報告，因為這個委辦費用編了687萬4,000元，我們現在是統刪10%，所以其他各項的委辦費全部都是刪10%，而律師職前訓練費正好占這一筆委辦費的48%，所以這邊如果全部統刪的話，我們沒辦法再從其他的委辦項目去支應，或是這樣去流用。另外，事實上……"],["翁委員曉玲：我跟你講，就算是刪了10%，事實上，你們現在梯次也都縮減了，所以看起來也沒有解凍這50萬的必要，因為你們就少辦了，這個部分我們之後再來談。更重要的是，按照律師法的規定，我之前就已經講了依照109年通過的律師法，當時規定律師職前訓練是要由全國律師公會來辦理，所以相關辦法也應該要提早提出來，你們之前一直沒有公告，我最近看到了，行政院已經公告116年要實施。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這已經報行政院核定。"],["翁委員曉玲：我有看到116年才公告實施。"],["鄭部長銘謙：核定了，116年1月。"],["翁委員曉玲：也就是從109年到115年這麼多年的時間，都是法務部在出這筆費用，而不是由全國律師公會出這筆費用，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是一個委辦費用，沒有錯，就是由法務來支應這個委辦費用。"],["翁委員曉玲：可是從律師法當時的修正裡面看不出來是法務部要委辦，而是律師公會自己要去出這筆錢，至於辦理職前訓練的費用是不是要由律師自己負擔一些費用，這是當時你們在修法時候的情況，當時為什麼要修法？就是因為認為之後一個月基礎訓練的上課費用要由全國律師公會來辦理，至於它要不要跟來受訓的學生收取一些上課費用，這是當時的想法，他們可能要收律師訓練費，這些才剛考上的律師、學生們要自己負擔一些費用，結果你們一直遲遲不公告相關的辦法、不公告相關的作業規則，反而都是由國家一直來出這筆錢。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，那個已經公告了，再來就是要由全聯會來處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：我希望這個辦法趕快提出來，因為本席也要看。"],["鄭部長銘謙：已經施行了。"],["翁委員曉玲：辦法已經施行了，不好意思，之後再提送你們的辦法給我看。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝部長。最後，我還要問一下矯正署，矯正署今天有來嗎？"],["主席：部長請回，請矯正署。"],["翁委員曉玲：針對矯正署的部分，本席有看到上次第398項的預算案，你們有提一個專案報告，當時是凍結「辦理矯正、醫療及訓練業務」的預算3,000萬，這筆錢本來是編列9億，我們凍結了3,000萬，並希望你們能夠提出一個專案報告，特別是針對矯正署保外醫治的審查機制來做一個專案報告，請問署長，你有看到你們提出的專案報告內容嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：有。"],["翁委員曉玲：你們寫了多少字，你知道嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：委員看到的那個報告是比較簡要的，我們有一個專案報告，總共有9頁。"],["翁委員曉玲：9頁？我怎麼沒有看到，我這裡只有2頁，而且不到400字。"],["周署長輝煌：現在可以送給委員嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：你們是今天才提的嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：不是現在才寫的。"],["翁委員曉玲：是什麼時候寫的，跟我這邊講的第398項的這個案子一樣是專案報告嗎？可是你們提供給我們的書面資料就是這2頁，而且這2頁裡面你們只寫了不到400個字，然後就要解凍3,000萬，內容非常的空白，你們把法規抄給我們這些委員們看。"],["周署長輝煌：因為整個法務部有很多案子，我們這邊的頁數是滿多的，整個放進去可能……"],["翁委員曉玲：別的解凍案其實也都是寫得很完整，你們這個實在是太草率了，你們說截至到114年3月31日，保外醫治仍具保在外人數有504人，在外超過9年的有32人，你們總是要列個表，讓我們知道大概是什麼樣的情況，竟然有保外就醫超過9年，甚至更長的，你們都沒有寫出來，你們這樣的專案報告方式，讓本席非常不能認同。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，這個專案報告裡面有列表，委員可以再詳細看一下。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，希望你待會把你們所謂的9頁的報告，提供給我們所有委員看，否則本席不可能放水這樣的解凍案，以上。"],["周署長輝煌：沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員。","接下來請最帥氣的羅智強委員，要讓主席誇獎什麼，你們都要自己跟我說。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-16","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","吳宗憲","沈發惠","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於監察院主管預算凍結項目共 1案；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管預算凍結項目共7案；三、審查及處理114年度中央\n政府總預算關於考試院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案；四、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於法\n務部及所屬主管預算凍結項目共23案","agenda_id":"1144802_00002"}}},{"id":"161193","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161193","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d524289590bea6cf479988fdfbeb5b66875394796d2191c023f004cc94ee87db5845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"10:27:40 - 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請一下陳彥博次長 陳文瑞局長 林福山市長 黃英貴市長 趙新華局長交通系統裡面最強的公路的五個人"},{"start":25.404,"end":40.268,"text":"市長我們來討論一下有關於棄燃費相關的議題包括他的證明以及如何建立一個公平穩定的收費機制那目前棄燃費的收費的狀況當然是依照公路法第27條"},{"start":41.508,"end":68.222,"text":"就是公路的主管機關因為我們的道路公路必須要養護修建以及安全管理所以來徵收汽車燃料使用費那目前的徵收的方式現行的方式是隨車徵收就按照車輛的CC數每年徵收大概是500億左右那汽燃費的分配當然是中央地方還有國道基金那我們來看"},{"start":69.162,"end":91.322,"text":"棄燃費他的徵收以及分配的辦法第4條他有很多各款的車輛是免徵棄燃費包括電動汽車不過我們在這邊也要注意市長我們的電動車的比例是越來越高那我記得在2018年的時候我們的這個"},{"start":93.755,"end":96.118,"text":"油車大概是2155萬輛就汽機車加起來那時候的這個電動車大概20萬輛但到今年的3月"},{"start":107.475,"end":115.022,"text":"我們的相關的燃油汽車大概是2191萬輛但是從2018到2023年的3月我們的電動車已經從22萬輛20萬輛現在提升到88萬輛提升的比例已經看得出來"},{"start":129.716,"end":154.287,"text":"那我們汽燃費它使用的本質就是在於道路的養護修建跟安全管理那我們有三個重點我們討論汽燃費都是要以道路為主體的那這三個重點就是說我們要確保這些養護修建管理的費用必須要充足而且徵收的對象是要以實際使用道路的路用車"},{"start":155.507,"end":172.967,"text":"第三收費應該要具有公平性那我們現在來討論一下相關的不管是隨車徵收 水油徵收或者是水里程徵收各有它的優缺點那我請教一下我們現在目前是隨車徵收隨車徵收是按照CC數計算它的優點是什麼來次長說明一下"},{"start":176.551,"end":199.124,"text":"我想現行的一個制度其實是因為它比較雖然它是比較簡單的一個徵收的一個方式但是因為它強調吸吸術或是車種所以相關的一個民眾的認知上也比較容易能夠接受所以現在是採用這種方式在徵收它的因素應該就是它的這個"},{"start":200.445,"end":219.86,"text":"費用的來源比較穩定而且可以確保目前道路維護相關的管理的一個需求其實它的缺點是在於公平問題它不容易反映車輛實際使用道路的這樣一個狀況這是它的缺點所以吳征說你認為它的優點是什麼"},{"start":222.101,"end":245.491,"text":"水油徵收當然就是剛好就是剛才委員講到的水油徵收是用多少走在道路上使用多少油它就徵收多少但是這樣的一個方式它比較能反映這些車輛實際使用道路的狀況而且它的計算方式也比較簡單但是它的缺點呢另外一塊就是有些是用油"},{"start":246.671,"end":270.715,"text":"不用入 像那個工業用油啦 或者是有些人是提這個桶子去加油 但是他加了油他可能是變成是小型的工程要用的所以像這種還有另外一個是徵收的上的 因為我們所有的用油像這種都是在當時就徵收了如果像剛才講的這個用油不用入的 那產生以後要退退這個錢 都會產生相關的一個困擾"},{"start":271.375,"end":285.722,"text":"當然水有真實化它是能夠反映這個實際道路的使用情形而且機會的處理方式也比較簡單不過它的缺點當然是現在車輛的技術提升"},{"start":286.542,"end":301.431,"text":"那燃油的效率其實也提升以及電動車輛的發展像我剛才講的2018年汽機車使用電力的大概只有20萬輛到今年的3月已經提升到88萬輛"},{"start":302.992,"end":324.262,"text":"那然有效率提升跟電動車這樣一個發展當然會導致這個收費會下降那可能這個裁員就會有問題是不是啊對 那隨著像我們現在有發現如果隨著電動車的一個繼續的一個使用如果也是採行現在免徵到了2030年大概會減徵的將近快36億元"},{"start":328.004,"end":333.94,"text":"好那現在大家社會大眾也在討論到是不是水里承徵收那水里承徵收你認為他的優點是什麼"},{"start":336.184,"end":358.675,"text":"水里程的徵收當然它就是反映在剛才講的公平性上大家走多少收多少它比較能夠實際反映出道路的使用狀況而且也避免這種電動車的這種趨勢所造成的影響而且能夠適應各種能源的這種車輛但是它的缺點是什麼"},{"start":359.355,"end":387.975,"text":"他缺點就是因為剛才特別提到就是說他要水里程徵收所以水里程如何來記錄這個里程這樣的一個技術呢可能就是他的技術其實就是有問題他的普及性以及篡改的問題那現在大概討論說以碼錶來登錄啦他有改錶的疑慮或是他沒有辦法有效的建立防避的機制或是OBD就是車上的診斷設備多數的舊車他沒有這樣的一個配備啦而且資料也可能被篡改"},{"start":388.655,"end":410.855,"text":"那OPU以及OPE就是車載單元跟車載機它設備的成員又比較高而且設備也有可能被拔除都是它相關的一個問題那我們來討論一下說我們交通部對於汽燃費到底有什麼具體的想法我先請教一下我們還是要把汽車燃料使用費"},{"start":411.896,"end":436.004,"text":"證明是這個道路養護費這個林俊憲委員跟我都有同樣的一個想法來你們說明一下我想委員所提出來希望證明他是道路的使用費或養護、修建的費用的這樣一個證明的修改這個汽車燃料使用費的這樣的一個建議或者是修法本部是支持的"},{"start":436.944,"end":461.927,"text":"當然我們在討論到這個棄燃費或者是這樣的一個道路維護的費用當然收費要公平而且它的相關的經費還是要充足它的費季要足夠另外就是負擔要合理這個為前提的那我們現在交通部針對相關的收費方式有沒有來做一個具體的一個討論我當然知道我們運營所"},{"start":463.248,"end":467.84,"text":"有做相關的研究這個醫院所研究要研究很久了要一年吧"},{"start":469.066,"end":494.4,"text":"來 次長說明一下對 運營所大概要研究大概一年到100 我的了解要到115年底那到什麼時候115年年底這個實在是非常的令人難以想像這樣的一個關係到民眾的以及道路的這種維護啊 竟然要拖那麼久那我們相關的我們針對電動車它是一個趨勢啊是"},{"start":497.922,"end":503.327,"text":"我也知道交通部有在討論嚴厲電動車的這個道路的維護費用也有計畫要徵收聽說是2030年有沒有這樣的一個想法來說明一下"},{"start":513.377,"end":540.102,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下剛才有特別提到汽燃費或是道路使用費其實就是從某個角度還是要公平那因為現在是近年轉型所以一開始的時候我們希望鼓勵電動車的一個使用但是隨著電動車剛才委員特別提到電動車數量越來越多的時候減增可能會影響到我們道路養護的經費所以政策上來講我們有規劃目前是規劃在2030年希望是不是可以延續來恢復來開增"},{"start":542.683,"end":551.395,"text":"我在交通委員會十幾年來大家都在討論相關七常會的這種徵收的方式交通部現在有沒有具體的一個想法來跟社會大眾來做一個說明"},{"start":553.876,"end":581.076,"text":"我想整個汽燃費徵收其實剛才委員特別提到他其實要考慮到幾個面向一個是公平一個是整個一個收費的整體的來源那另外一個是民眾能夠負擔所以這幾個問題那又隨著這個電動車的一個使用目前的這個議題就是我剛才特別提到我們是委請運輸研究所就這幾個面向還是沒有明確的答案還是要等"},{"start":582.216,"end":610.643,"text":"因緣所相關的這個報告出來因為不管是剛才委員特別提到現行來講隨車隨遊隨里程其實在近幾年來在交通委員會其實每一年大概都提都很多人在討論那討論為什麼到現在還是維持現在的隨車徵收其實也就是跟委員報告整個隨車徵收目前在世界很多的國家也是依舊在使用譬如說像新加坡日本或者是歐盟等等國家"},{"start":611.443,"end":629.492,"text":"日本也有不同的相關的地方他們實施不一樣的徵收方式也有但是多數來講還是多數地方還是採用這種方式所以這樣的一個方式如何改變我覺得我們還是要考慮到剛才三個名將共同來討論以後最後一分鐘我也最後一個小問題"},{"start":631.038,"end":650.327,"text":"那我們來討論一下國際電動車的趨勢其實我們對於相關的安全規格以及相關的停車場相關的設施其實也帶來面臨新的挑戰那電動車起火撲滅的時間是傳統油車的七至八倍耗費的水量是傳統油車的四十倍"},{"start":651.067,"end":670.942,"text":"燃燒時它的溫度大約是800至1000度而且產生大量的有毒物質而且隨時都可能再次的復燃那我們來看相關的這些國際的這樣的一個統計跟我們消防署自己的統計消防署的統計"},{"start":672.724,"end":688.465,"text":"電動車自駕從2021年到2024年平均每年都超過60件有相關它起火的原因跟電動車主要起火的因素那這些在上面我就不再贅述那我們要確保安全的標準"},{"start":689.746,"end":708.518,"text":"電池的狀態剛才我們看到很多起火的狀態電池也是一個主要的原因那歐盟在2022年有新增規定他們以機械的這種進行物理的衝擊來證明、驗證電池的安全性他們要求撞擊之後不得起火"},{"start":709.198,"end":723.414,"text":"不得爆炸電池要維持在原來安裝的位置而且要目視檢查電解液是否有洩漏的這樣一個情形而且在高電壓的電池要符合相關的防護等級"},{"start":724.215,"end":738.851,"text":"那測試環境溫度條件之下觀察一小時要確認電池狀態的穩定性歐盟對這個要求是很嚴格的那我請問一下我們的做法是什麼我們有沒有參照歐盟的規範來說明一下"},{"start":742.095,"end":750.917,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告一下,目前國內的車輛安全檢測基準是跟歐盟一樣,是調和聯合國UNR100導進來我們有沒有將這種漏液還有膨脹的狀況也拉入這個定檢,或是裝設這個感測器,研議來裝設這些感測器"},{"start":762.18,"end":787.963,"text":"這部分我跟委員報告 第一個部分新車這個完整的法規就陳儒剛剛所報告的部分那這個使用中定期檢驗的部分 那目前部裡面已經在這個111年把這個大型客車先給它進來就是定期檢驗的時候要去看這些要出去這個電池定期保養表這個部分那目前針對這個小客車的部分那公務總局跟這個公衛目前在研議當中未來也會把他進來"},{"start":788.624,"end":810.617,"text":"我們必須相關的安全規格要比照歐盟來針對電動車的安全實施這樣的一個督促我們在停車場相關的消防設備也希望能夠跟消防署來討論是不是比照美國的相關的這個標準來做相關的設施那相關時間的關係我再跟我們交通部來做討論以上謝謝召委員好 謝謝委員謝謝李崑澤委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":407,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（10時27分）謝謝召委，請一下陳彥伯次長、陳文瑞局長、林福山司長、黃運貴司長、趙興華局長，交通系統裡面公路最強的5個人。"],["主席：陳次長、陳局長、黃司長、林司長、趙局長。"],["李委員昆澤：次長，我們來討論一下汽燃費相關的議題，包括它的正名以及如何建立一個公平穩定的收費機制。目前汽燃費的收費狀況當然是依照公路法第二十七條，公路主管機關因為我們的道路、公路必須要養護、修建以及安全管理，所以徵收汽車燃料使用費。現行的徵收方式是隨車徵收，就是按照車輛的cc數，每年徵收大概500億左右，而汽燃費的分配當然是中央、地方還有國道基金。","我們來看汽車燃料使用費徵收及分配辦法第四條，有很多各款車輛是免徵汽燃費，包括電動汽車。不過我們在這邊也要注意，次長，我們的電動車比例越來越高，我記得在2018年的時候，我們的油車大概是2,155萬輛，就是汽機車加起來，那時候的電動車大概20萬輛；到今年的3月，我們相關的燃油汽車大概是2,191萬輛，但是從2018年到2023年的3月，我們的電動車已經從20萬輛提升到88萬輛，提升的比例已經看得出來。","我們汽燃費使用的本質就是在於道路的養護、修建跟安全管理，我們有三個重點，討論汽燃費都是要以道路為主體，而這三個重點分別是：第一個，要確保這些養護修建及安全管理的費用必須要充足；第二個，徵收的對象要以實際使用道路的路用車輛；第三個，收費應該要具有公平性。","現在來討論一下相關的不管是隨車徵收、隨油徵收，或者是隨里程徵收都各有優缺點。請教一下，我們現在是隨車徵收，是按照cc數作為計算，它的優點是什麼？請次長說明一下。"],["陳次長彥伯：現行隨車徵收的制度是比較簡單的徵收方式，因為它強調是cc數或是車種，相關民眾的認知上也比較容易能夠接受，所以現在是採用這種方式在徵收，而且現行的……"],["李委員昆澤：它的優點應該就是費用的來源比較穩定，而且可以確保目前道路維護管理的相關需求，其實它的缺點在於公平問題啦！它不容易反映車輛實際使用道路的這樣狀況。"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["李委員昆澤：這是它的缺點，你認為隨油徵收的優點是什麼？"],["陳次長彥伯：隨油徵收是剛才委員提到的，走在道路上使用多少油就徵收多少，但是這樣的方式……"],["李委員昆澤：對，它比較能反映這些車輛實際使用道路的狀況啦！"],["陳次長彥伯：對，但是有另外一塊就是……"],["李委員昆澤：而且它的計算方式也比較簡單，但是它的缺點呢？"],["陳次長彥伯：另外一塊就是有些是「用油不用路」，像工業用油或者是有些人是提著桶子去加油，但是他加了油，可能是給小型的工程要用的，所以像這種……還有另外一個是徵收得上的，因為我們所有的用油，像這種都是在當時就徵收了，如果像剛才提到的「用油不用路」，以後要退費的話，都會產生相關的困擾。"],["李委員昆澤：當然隨油徵收能夠反映實際道路的使用情形，而且計費的處理方式也比較簡單，不過它的缺點是現在車輛的技術提升，燃油的效率也提升以及電動車輛的發展，誠如我剛才提到的，2018年汽機車使用電力的大概只有20萬輛，到今年3月已經提升到88萬輛，燃油效率提升跟電動車這樣的發展，當然會導致徵收費用下降，可能這個財源就會有問題，是不是？"],["陳次長彥伯：對，我們現在有發現隨著電動車繼續使用，如果採行現在的免徵措施，到了2030年大概會減徵將近36億元，所以對整體的……"],["李委員昆澤：好，現在社會大眾也在討論是不是隨里程徵收，你認為隨里程徵收的優點是什麼？"],["陳次長彥伯：隨里程徵收就是反映在剛才提到的公平性上嘛！大家走多少，就收多少。"],["李委員昆澤：對，它比較能夠實際反映出道路使用的狀況，也可以避免電動車的發展趨勢所造成的影響，而且能夠適應各種人員的這種車輛，但是它的缺點是什麼？"],["陳次長彥伯：它的缺點剛才也有特別提到要隨里程徵收，隨里程要如何紀錄這個里程？這樣的技術可能就是……"],["李委員昆澤：它的技術其實就是有問題，包含它的普及性以及篡改的問題。現在要討論的是，如果以碼錶來登錄，會有改錶的疑慮，或者是沒有辦法有效建立防弊機制，或是OBD就是車上的診斷設備，多數的舊車沒有這樣的配備，而且資料也可能被篡改，OBU及OBE就是車載單元及車載機，它設備的成本又比較高，而且設備也有可能被拔除，都是它相關的問題啦！我們來討論一下，交通部對於汽燃費到底有什麼具體的想法？我先請教一下，我們還是要把汽車燃料使用費正名為道路養護費，林俊憲委員跟我都有同樣的想法，你們說明一下。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員提出希望將汽車燃料使用費正名為道路的使用費或是養護修建費用，這樣的修改建議或者修法，本部是支持的。"],["李委員昆澤：好，我們討論到這個汽燃費或者道路維護的費用，當然收費要公平！而且它的相關經費還是要充足、費基要足夠，另外就是負擔要合理，以這些為前提。現在交通部針對相關的收費方式有沒有具體的討論？我當然知道你們運研所有做相關的研究，但運研所要研究很久，要一年吧？次長請說明一下。"],["陳次長彥伯：對，以我的了解運研所大概要研究到115年年底。"],["李委員昆澤：它到什麼時候？"],["陳次長彥伯：115年年底。"],["李委員昆澤：這個實在是非常令人難以想像啊！這樣攸關到民眾的權益以及道路的維護，竟然要拖那麼久。我們針對電動車的發展趨勢，我也知道交通部有在討論及研議電動車的道路維護費用，也有計劃要徵收，聽說要在2030年開始徵收，有沒有這樣的想法？說明一下。"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告一下，剛才有特別提到汽燃費或者道路使用費，其實從某個角度還是要公平啦！因為現在是淨零轉型，所以一開始的時候，我們希望鼓勵電動車的使用，但是剛才委員特別提到隨著電動車的數量越來越多的時候，減徵可能會影響到我們道路養護的經費，所以以政策層面來講，我們目前有規劃在2030年，希望是不是可以研議恢復開徵。"],["李委員昆澤：好，我在交通委員會十幾年來，大家都在討論相關汽燃費的這種徵收方式，交通部現在有沒有具體的想法跟社會大眾說明？"],["陳次長彥伯：有關整個汽燃費徵收，剛才委員特別提到，其實要考慮到幾個面向，一個是公平，一個是整個收費的整體來源，另外一個是民眾能夠負擔，這幾個問題又隨著電動車的使用，目前這個議題就是我剛才特別提到，我委請運輸研究所就這幾個面向研究並加以考量。"],["李委員昆澤：還是沒有明確的答案，還是要等運研所相關的報告出來。"],["陳次長彥伯：是的，不管是剛才委員特別提到現行的隨車、隨油及隨里程，其實近幾年來在交通委員會，每一年都有很多人在討論啦！為什麼到現在還是維持現在的隨車徵收？跟委員報告，整個隨車徵收，目前世界很多的國家依舊在使用，譬如像新加坡、日本或者是歐盟等等國家都還是使用……"],["李委員昆澤：日本也有不同相關的地方，他們實施不一樣的徵收方式。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，也是有不一樣的地方。但是多數地方來講，還是採用這種方式，所以這樣的方式如何改變，我覺得我們還是要考慮到剛才三個面向並共同討論後，再來提出方案。"],["李委員昆澤：最後一分鐘提出最後一個小問題，有關國際電動車這樣的發展趨勢，我們對於相關的安全規格以及相關的停車場等相關的設施，其實也面臨新的挑戰，電動車起火撲滅的時間是傳統油車的7至8倍，耗費的水量是傳統油車的40倍，燃燒時的溫度大約是800至1,000度，而且會產生大量的有毒物質，隨時都可能再次復燃。根據消防署自己的統計，有關電動車致災的案件數，從2021年到2024年平均每年都超過60件，有關電動車起火的原因跟主要起火的因素，這些在簡報上面就不再贅述，我們要確保安全的標準，有關電池的狀態，剛才我們看到很多起火的原因，電池起火也是主要原因之一。","歐盟在2022年有新增規定，他們以機械進行物理衝擊來驗證電池的安全性，他們要求撞擊之後，不得起火、不得爆炸、電池要維持在原來安裝的位置、目視檢查電解液是否有洩漏的情形、在高電壓的電池要符合相關防護等級，以及測試環境溫度條件之下，觀察1小時確認電池狀態的穩定性，歐盟對這個要求是很嚴格的，請教一下我們的作法是什麼？我們有沒有參照歐盟的規範？說明一下。"],["陳次長彥伯：我請林司長說明。"],["林司長福山：這個部分跟委員報告一下，目前國內車輛安全檢測基準跟歐盟一樣，是調和聯合國的UN R100導進來實施的。"],["李委員昆澤：那我們有沒有將這種漏液和膨脹的狀況也納入定檢，或是研議裝設感測器？"],["林司長福山：這部分跟委員報告，第一個部分新車完整的法規就誠如剛剛所報告的，使用中定期檢驗的部分，目前部裡面已經在111年把大型客車先納進來，就是定期檢驗的時候要出具電池定期保養表；針對小客車的部分，公路總局跟公會目前在研議當中，未來也會把它納進來。"],["李委員昆澤：相關的安全規格要比照歐盟，針對電動車的安全實施這樣一個督促。在停車場相關的消防設備方面，也希望能夠跟消防署來討論，是不是比照美國的標準來做相關的設施。因為時間的關係，我再跟交通部來做討論，以上，謝謝召委。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤委員。","特別跟委員會報告，陳雪生委員質詢完畢，休息10分鐘。","現在請游顥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-11","speakers":["林國成","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","許智傑","陳素月","蔡其昌","何欣純","林俊憲","張啓楷","廖先翔","李昆澤","游顥","黃健豪","陳雪生","魯明哲","徐富癸","邱若華","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員吳宗憲等17人、(二)委員賴士葆等28人、(三)委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具「人\n工智慧基本法草案」及(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工智慧發展及管理條例草案」案；二、審查\n( 一) 委員林俊憲等23 人擬具「公路法第二十七條、第二十八條及第七十五條條文修正草案」、\n(二)委員陳冠廷等18人、(三)委員徐富癸等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」、\n(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「公路法第三十三條條文修正草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團、(六)委\n員馬文君等19 人、( 七) 委員邱若華等17 人分別擬具「公路法第三十九條之一條文修正草案」、\n(八)委員何欣純等18人擬具「公路法第四十六條及第六十條之一條文修正草案」、(九)委員王義\n川等16人擬具「公路法第六十五條條文修正草案」及(十)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「公路法第七十\n二條條文修正草案」案；三、審查 ( 一 ) 委員林俊憲等 22 人擬具「停車場法第四條條文修正草\n案」、(二)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」及(三)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「停車場法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。【本日會議僅針對開會事由二及三進行合併詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1144802_00001"}}},{"id":"161192","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161192","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d52cd250dc40cd38822988fdfbeb5b66875394796d2191c023f4d9f4a3faaf30f325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"11:04:41 - 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但是你們人員是依法 執法 依法 行政就很清楚 有問題沒有過不需要吵架 你知道嗎你用吵架 我覺得這很奇怪弄完之後咧 當影片出來對機關形象如何對他這個處理方法真的是很奇怪那你說這個假設有隔熱板是放在後面你要摸後面還摸前面在討論這個我覺得都不應該啊那到底有沒有測溫槍這件事啊"},{"start":164.085,"end":166.408,"text":"你們有配備這個測溫槍嗎沒有就簡單來講這個排氣管合不合格形式合不合格需不需要透過測溫槍來測因為它基本上形式合格的部分的話其實就是它的這個溫度的話其實是可以就是說是沒有問題的"},{"start":184.106,"end":207.615,"text":"所以其實不用去摸或者是不用去測這個溫度好 那這個部分說都做好教育了是是是OK那可是有一個問題就是我們照做一番網路就發覺同樣一位我們認真的監理站的夥伴在前一個月2月24號就今年的2月24號也跟人家"},{"start":208.715,"end":232.231,"text":"跟一堆人在那邊吵啊 吵什麼 吵那個車牌啊右邊看到沒有 車牌 你看得很清楚吧 VLG然後 吵什麼車牌 V中間好像有一點有一些白色 是不是好像塗上去的好像為了讓大家看清楚 V 是不是有一些問題 然後"},{"start":234.272,"end":253.938,"text":"也在那邊吵我就覺得很奇怪因為相關的法令那個規定啊這個我就覺得有點奇怪你到底現在的一個情況是不是能夠達到不能夠辨識他的牌照人家的起心動念是說糟糕了不管刮到什麼我的V怕別人認不出來是讓"},{"start":255.498,"end":270.465,"text":"合法的牌照讓人家辨識更清楚假設我是黑色的是有點斷 被磨掉了我用黑色的鉛筆讓這個V呈現得更好這個有什麼好吵的啊那個局長你知不知道這件事"},{"start":272.242,"end":299.829,"text":"還是現在才聽說就是就是牌照的部分基本上就是說當然要辨識啦那所以就是說他如果說這個沒辦法辨識的話大概同仁都會覺得說那可能是不是就是可以就是來做一個換一下這個牌照這樣子那所以好啦現在就是辨識的很清楚他要看中間這個字好像有一點白色是不是有奇異比的內容我不知道你們SOP什麼我真的不知道"},{"start":300.589,"end":320.977,"text":"我真的 如果說每一個做事情你對的也不要吵架嘛可是你也不要去刻意去找人家的麻煩沒有影響到執法沒有影響到監理的公平的一個性質我覺得你要這個SOP啊但我真的建議你同樣一個人發生多次這麼認真的一個情況"},{"start":322.458,"end":337.173,"text":"你去思考一下 是不適合他以這麼精細的態度是不是適合比較內情是不是不要接觸人不然到最後徒增很多的一些問題那我想要跟你說"},{"start":338.755,"end":346.48,"text":"摸排氣管這件事情我那天在打電話給你今年度的時候我感覺你好像沒聽過這件事情結果我一去查我真的嚇一跳這個兩年多快三年了111年12月7號這也是媒體披露的就說那不是這個人了是在士林間裡站"},{"start":358.047,"end":377.861,"text":"也是叫人家摸啊那時候環境部的新法規還沒出來喔舊法規的時候你們一樣叫人家摸叫他證明不燙所以兩年多之前你們的檢討報告也出來了說讓民眾手觸摸排氣管測量溫度確有不妥我要加強專業訓練避免再次情況情況再次發生就是再發生了"},{"start":385.902,"end":391.908,"text":"好好檢討一下啦好不好這個東西到底是什麼原因那再來通用計程車的一個問題那這個新聞的部分"},{"start":395.93,"end":396.47,"text":"打了七家好"},{"start":417.669,"end":439.808,"text":"現在這個情況 你們也很清楚啦一直在想辦法 像4月有新的一些補助辦法規定我們也看到了嘛那說真的 這已經十幾年了十幾年了 那發生什麼樣一個情況呢這很多現在的現況急需解決啊你現在看看第二個 第一行是我們這個全國各六都 以六都為例"},{"start":440.769,"end":455.754,"text":"身心障礙者人數的一個比例第二個比例是通用計程車在這幾個六都中間佔有的比例台北市看起來幾乎是四成但四成也不多你知道嗎因為全國總共在113年年底的統計才1324輛佔所有計程車的大概是1.5%"},{"start":466.738,"end":486.903,"text":"所以你在看這個人數的一個比例服務的一個比例一台通用所謂無障礙計程車到底服務幾位身心障礙當然所有身心障礙的類別非常多啦不一定是輪椅那一類但是我們還是用這個通盤去做一個政策的參考的比較你看喔台北市每台車服務230人"},{"start":489.383,"end":513.421,"text":"到了桃園每台車服務1281人到了最後台南一台車要服務2590人這個第一個車數明顯不夠總量不夠第二個呢分配的部分也不夠平均所以怎麼樣在政策去引導這個次長你回答一下那為什麼在這樣這麼缺車的情況"},{"start":515.463,"end":523.099,"text":"隨便找三個城市啦不想弄表搞得花花的確實應該每一年都趕快來申請新北市"},{"start":524.366,"end":552.952,"text":"前三年111213零沒有人申請沒有人要你們的錢一台車補助31萬新購車沒有人要台北市還好台北市做的最好了111213沒有112年他有提這個但是補助多少我不知道桃園我也問了是000就是說這個政策這個引導性重要性從中央政府到地方政府到底發生什麼事你能不能總結一下"},{"start":553.692,"end":574.88,"text":"明明就很缺分配又不均可是大家又不想申請但你先看右邊這個零喔不要解釋這三都啦111年現在已經跟你申請結帳的右邊的表111年你們公務局補助出去的結帳的全國是零這最嚴重所以不要看其他縣市其他縣市沒有人跟你申請"},{"start":576.594,"end":601.313,"text":"這麼急迫為什麼搞成這樣市長你說一下我跟委員報告一下剛才委員講一輛車尤其是我們的通用計程車服務整體上來看可能還要再加入地方政府的復康巴士所以我想整體復康巴士來營運的狀況會不一樣至於說通用計程車的申請這部是由各縣市政府來提出申請我們也有相關的博助"},{"start":601.673,"end":628.68,"text":"那我們也發現通用計程車以往的時候來申請以後他不是用在這個載運這種需要輪椅來服務的這個乘客所以我們今年應該是四月我們就已經改變了相關的一個方式當然補助我們還是繼續補助應該是一台車應該是40萬的一個補助那另外呢他空車在等待也有給相關的經費然後他行駛空車行駛到這個載運這個無障礙也有"},{"start":630.58,"end":655.526,"text":"那最重要的我們希望這些生前的通用計程車的駕駛朋友他要在一個運營所的一個平台上愛接送的平台上去顯示出來類似像以後可以加速這種通用計程車的使用通用計程車要不要在輪椅的客戶所有通用計程車要能夠掛牌合法作為通用計程車要不要做這樣的輔具設施"},{"start":658.01,"end":672.849,"text":"要嘛就好了嘛你現在講說要載誰對一般人他也可以做一般的生意只要椅子夠我懂啦可是你這個成本是固定的嘛那我現在就請教你知道嗎大家都痛苦啊剛剛早上通完一個電話他坐了七年不坐了換車了絕對絕對不回去"},{"start":676.073,"end":692.093,"text":"我剛剛講怎麼這麼堅決發生什麼事你們到底是不知道政策的領導當然我覺得有一半去做改了當然第一個購車的成本購車的成本他在目前全台灣除了原裝的車輛可能加原裝的大概主要有四到五款的車適合做"},{"start":693.795,"end":720.023,"text":"那有稍微貴 稍微便宜的大概都一百八到兩百現況就是整個輔具做好大概就要這麼貴那你們補助款呢過去是三十一萬嗎三十幾萬是不是三十一萬然後現在四月開始三月六號公告現在變成四十萬請問一下我購車我現在要貸款要去借錢購車最痛苦購車最痛苦那你們呢"},{"start":721.55,"end":738.332,"text":"講過去的31萬是不是應該要一次或者進駐要到位讓人家第一次花了180萬到200萬你補助他30萬只是貼他一點六分之一 趕快補助他一些回補一些經濟這也是你們當時的用意嘛 對不對"},{"start":739.073,"end":755.039,"text":"是那有分年嗎或五年才給他滿意嗎一次一次到位一次到位一次到位啊是一次到位你知道現在的車隊我跟委員報告因為各種這個通用計程車他本來的樣式就不一樣所以我們當時在訂試駛的時候是有針對整個試車"},{"start":757.1,"end":770.295,"text":"升降的這個輔助的設備那也跟委員說明一下有關通用計程車通用型的計程車目前我們也正在跟經濟部共同來研議在未來我們希望所有的計程車都是通用計程車如果是你講說的這麼OK的話不會每一年到現在只有這個"},{"start":780.044,"end":796.036,"text":"1.5% 1300多台大家騎車都要來那你車輛的補助款你是一次給他那你覺得你有問過那個市長你有問過真正通用計程車的司機嗎駕駛嗎 車是自己買的他是一次拿到還是分好幾年拿到 你有沒有問跟這位委員報告一下目前這個通用計程車的部分大概是透過車隊的這個部分來好啦 你答案出來了嘛"},{"start":806.854,"end":824.049,"text":"你的意思就是說本來是我們的概念政策是說錢給買車那個人結果中間說車隊不好意思不能自己來要透過我車隊申請然後車隊去你補給地方政府他給他申請31萬拿過來然後呢然後呢到車隊了"},{"start":829.005,"end":855.812,"text":"到車隊然後怎麼樣如果他向台北市申請100輛車你把這麼多的錢放在車隊產生了幾十萬上百萬的利息你是圖利是不是我告訴你現在反映的車隊我不講哪個車隊就是五年你的31萬就是五年他不玩了嘛五年耶你一次要給他五年五年還分十次然後半年三萬一 三萬一"},{"start":857.418,"end":872.884,"text":"不是你們的政策我是覺得如果要擔心說我補助你萬一不做但是第一次購車款你至少要給人家一半嘛你要給人家一半嘛後面再監督他到底做得怎麼樣好啦我建議這個市長市長拜託一下通運計程車隨機找一些朋友來不然這些你現在1324台我做個結論有多少是5年以上他已經沒有在幹了他根本不按了"},{"start":887.509,"end":895.471,"text":"五年了吧 講是一般的車行員三年五年我不幹了你們這樣子我要多少服務態度要扶上去 扶下來 然後車制一樣 他不幹了所以我覺得第一次的車款即使不能給他也要給三分之二 三分之一呢看你到底有沒有去服務我們 真的不能這樣的"},{"start":909.915,"end":923.492,"text":"不能這樣 你31萬要一次給他他第一次只拿到3萬1這是事實 早上的一個車隊的情況如果你們還不知道 跟你們政策的一個效度差異很大 請你們去研究 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":547,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時4分）感謝主席，有請陳次長，還有公路局陳局長。"],["主席：陳次長、公路局陳局長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：首先，問你們兩位都公道啦！一位是公路總局的陳前局長，一位是現在的公路局局長，這個問題發生的時候、網路在傳的時候，我也打電話給現任的陳局長特別談這個問題，那個情況你都知道，今年3月19號整個影片在網路上傳，當然，他的排氣管是不是原廠的或者檢查相關的一些問題，後面在爭議過程中，我們監理站的人員就說「你就去摸嘛！這個很燙，你要去摸，如果你可以放在上面20秒的話，就算通過」。我先問公路總局的陳彥伯前局長，因為我感覺這個滿有歷史的，是不是你那個時代傳承下來的經驗法則？以前有這樣規定嗎？發動之後自己敢摸自己的排氣管20秒，然後就算過關？好啦！現任的陳局長，你說一下。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，排氣管不是這樣檢驗，我們已經對同仁做了更嚴格的一些教育訓練，還有，對於他的執行方式，我們也通令所有各監理機關做相關的一些檢討。基本上為了防止排氣管太燙而被燙到，相關的形式跟原廠的一些規格，對於能夠改變的形式環境部也有相關的規範，所以有一些環境部規定的形式其實可以依循。"],["魯委員明哲：這個我懂嘛！但是你們的人員是依法執法、依法行政，就很清楚，有問題沒有過，不需要吵架，你吵架就讓人覺得很奇怪，第一個，當影片出來，對機關形象會如何？第二個，他這個處理的方法真的是很奇怪，假設有隔熱板是放在後面，那你要摸後面，還是摸前面？他們在討論這個，我覺得都不應該啊！到底有沒有測溫槍這件事？你們有配備測溫槍嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：沒有。"],["魯委員明哲：簡單來講，這個排氣管合不合格、形式合不合格，需不需要透過測溫槍來測？"],["陳局長文瑞：不用，因為它基本上形式合格的話，它的溫度是沒有問題的，所以其實不用去摸或是不用去測這個溫度。"],["魯委員明哲：好，這個部分你說都做好教育了？"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["魯委員明哲：OK，可是有一個問題，我們一翻網路，就發覺同樣一位認真的監理站夥伴，就在前一個月，在今年2月24號也跟一堆人在那邊吵，吵什麼？簡報右邊的車牌你應該看得很清楚吧！車牌是「VLG」，然後吵說車牌的「V」中間好像有一些白色，是不是塗上去的，好像是為了讓大家看清楚「V」，是不是有一些問題？然後也在那邊吵。我就覺得很奇怪，因為相關的法令規定，這樣的情況是不是達到不能夠辨識他的牌照？人家的起心動念是說「糟糕了，不知道刮到什麼，我的『V』怕別人認不出來」，事實上，合法的牌照讓人家更清楚辨識，假設我是黑色的字，有一點被磨掉了，我用黑色的鉛字筆讓這個字呈現得更好，這個有什麼好吵的？局長，你知不知道這件事？還是現在才聽說？"],["陳局長文瑞：牌照的部分基本上當然要辨識，如果沒辦法辨識的話，同仁大概都會覺得是不是可以更換牌照，所以……"],["魯委員明哲：好啦！現在就是辨識得很清楚，他要看中間這個字好像有點白色，是不是有奇異筆的內容，我不知道你們的SOP是什麼，我真的不知道。但是我認為，每一個做事情的人，就算你是對的，也不要吵架嘛！你也不要刻意去找人家的麻煩，沒有影響執法、沒有影響到監理的公平性質，我覺得你要有SOP，但我真的建議你，同樣一個人發生多次這麼認真的情況，你去思考一下，以他這麼精細的態度，是不是比較適合內勤、是不是不要接觸人？不然到最後徒增很多問題。","其次，我要跟你說摸排氣管這件事情，我今年度的某天打電話給你的時候，我感覺你好像沒聽過這件事情，結果我一去查，我真的嚇一跳！已經兩年多、快三年了，111年12月7日，這也是媒體披露的，不是這個人，是在士林監理站，也是叫人家摸，那時候環境部的新法規還沒出來，是舊法規的時候，你們一樣叫人家摸，叫人家證明不燙了。所以兩年多前你們的檢討報告也出來了，說讓民眾以手觸摸排氣管測量溫度確有不妥，你們要加強專業訓練，以避免情況再次發生。結果又再發生了！好好檢討一下啦，這個東西到底是什麼原因？","再來，通用計程車的問題，先看新聞的部分。","（播放影片）"],["魯委員明哲：現在的情況你們也很清楚，所以一直在想辦法，像4月有一些新的補助辦法、規定，我們也看到了。說真的，這已經十幾年了，發生什麼樣的情況呢？很多現況急需解決，以六都為例，第一行是身心障礙者人數的比例，第二個是六都在通用計程車輛數所占有的比例，臺北市看起來是幾乎四成，但四成也不多，因為根據113年底的統計，全國總共才1,324輛，占所有計程車的大概1%、1.5%。你再看服務人數的比例，一台通用計程車，所謂無障礙計程車，到底能服務幾位身心障礙者？當然身心障礙的類別非常多，不一定是輪椅那一類的，但我們還是用這個通盤去做一個政策參考的比較。你看臺北市，每一台車服務230人；到了桃園，每一台車要服務1,281人；到了臺南，每一台車要服務2,590人。第一個，車數的總量明顯不夠，第二個，分配的部分也不夠平均，所以要怎麼在政策上去引導？這個部分請次長回答一下。為什麼在這麼缺車的情況下，我就隨便舉三個城市，因為不想搞得花花的。既然很缺車，就應該每一年都趕快來申請，但你看新北市，前三年（111年、112年、113年）是0件，沒有人來申請，沒有人要你們的錢，一台新購車補助31萬，沒有人要！然後臺北市做得最好，111年、113年沒有，但112年他有提這個，但是補助多少？我不知道。桃園方面我也問了，分別是0、0、0。也就是說，這個政策的引導性、重要性，從中央政府到地方政府，到底發生什麼事了，你能不能總結一下？明明就很缺、分配又不均，可是大家又不想申請？你先看右邊這個0，不要解釋這三都，你看右邊的表，111年已經跟你申請結帳的，111年你們公路局補助出去、結帳的，全國是0，這最嚴重啊！所以不要看其他縣市，其他縣市沒有人跟你們申請，明明這麼急迫，為什麼搞成這樣？次長，你說一下。"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，剛才委員講到一輛車的服務人數，尤其是通用計程車的服務，從整體來看，可能還要再加入地方政府的復康巴士，如果加上復康巴士的話，我想整體營運的狀況會不一樣。至於通用計程車申請的部分，是由各縣市政府來提出申請，我們也有提供相關的補助。我們也發現通用計程車以往來申請以後，他不是用在載運這種需要輪椅服務的乘客，所以我們應該在今年4月就已經改變相關的方式，當然補助方面，我們還是繼續補助，一台車應該是40萬的補助。另外，他空車在等待，也有給相關的經費，然後他空車行駛到載運無障礙的也有，最重要的是，我們希望申請通用計程車的駕駛朋友，他要在運研所的愛接送平臺上去顯示出來，類似像Uber，來加速通用計程車的使用。"],["魯委員明哲：我做幾個結論，通用計程車要不要載輪椅的客戶？所有通用計程車要能夠掛牌、要合法作為通用計程車，要不要做這樣的輔具設施？要嘛！你現在說要載誰，對！他也可以做一般的生意，只要椅子夠，我懂啦！可是這個成本是固定的。","我現在就請教，你知道大家的痛苦嗎？早上我剛通完一通電話，他做了7年不做了，換車了，絕對不回去！我問他：唉唷，怎麼這麼堅決？發生什麼事？你們到底知不知道，在政策領導上，當然，我覺得有一半你們有改了，第一個是購車的成本，他說目前全臺灣，所有原裝的車輛，可能加原裝的，主要有四到五款車適合做，有稍微貴，也有稍微便宜的，現況大概都180到200萬，就是整個輔具做好，大概就要這麼貴。你們的補助款呢？過去是31萬嗎？三十幾萬？是不是31萬？然後3月6日公告，4月開始變成40萬。請問一下，我購車後要去貸款、要去借錢，購車最痛苦了，假如過去是補助31萬，是不是應該要一次或者儘速到位？人家第一次花了180萬到200萬，你補助他30萬只是補貼他一點，六分之一，就是趕快補助他一些、回補一些經濟，這也是你們當時的用意嘛，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["魯委員明哲：有分年嗎？分5年才給他滿意嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：沒有，一次到位。"],["魯委員明哲：一次到位啊！你知道現在的車隊……"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告，因為各種通用計程車本來的樣式就不一樣，所以我們當時在訂40萬的時候，是有針對整個升降輔助的設備來評估。也跟委員說明，有關通用型的計程車，目前我們也正在跟經濟部共同來研議，在未來，我們希望所有的計程車都是通用計程車。"],["魯委員明哲：我跟你講，如果是像你說的這麼OK的話，不會到現在每一年只有1.5%，而是一千三百多台大家都要來。車輛的補助款，你是一次給他，司長，你有問過真正通用計程車的司機、駕駛嗎？如果車是自己買的，他是一次拿到，還是分好幾年拿到？你有沒有問過？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，目前通用計程車的部分，大概是透過車隊的部分來……"],["魯委員明哲：好啦，你的答案出來了嘛！你的意思就是，本來我們的概念、政策是錢要給買車的那個人，結果中間的車隊說：不好意思，不能自己來，要透過我車隊申請。然後你補給地方政府，車隊跟他申請，31萬拿過來，然後呢？到車隊了，然後怎麼樣？像臺北市申請100輛車，你把這麼多的錢放在車隊，產生了幾十萬、上百萬的利息，你是圖利是不是？我告訴你，現在反映的車隊，我不講哪個車隊，就是5年！你的31萬就是5年！他不玩了嘛！5年耶，你一次要給他5年，還分10次，半年三萬一、三萬一。關於你們的政策，我是覺得如果你是擔心你補助他，萬一他不做要怎麼辦，但是第一次購車款你至少要給人家一半嘛！後面再監督他到底做得怎麼樣。","好啦！我建議司長、次長，拜託一下，通用計程車隨機找一些朋友來問，不然現在1,324台，我做個結論，有多少是5年以上，他已經沒有在幹了，他根本不幹了。5年了嘛！假設一般的車行，有的3年、5年我不幹了，像這種我要提供多少服務？要扶上去、扶下來，然後車次一樣，所以他不幹了！","所以我覺得第一次的車款，即使不能給他全部，也要給他三分之二，其餘三分之一，再看他到底有沒有好好去服務。真的不能這樣的！你31萬要一次給他，他第一次只拿到三萬一，這是事實，這是早上一個車隊的情況，如果你們還不知道這跟你們政策的效度差異很大，請你們去研究，謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員，我們會再去檢討。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲委員的質詢。現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時20分）","繼續開會（11時26分）"],["主席：各位請就座。","現在請蔡其昌副院長質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-11","speakers":["林國成","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","許智傑","陳素月","蔡其昌","何欣純","林俊憲","張啓楷","廖先翔","李昆澤","游顥","黃健豪","陳雪生","魯明哲","徐富癸","邱若華","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員吳宗憲等17人、(二)委員賴士葆等28人、(三)委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具「人\n工智慧基本法草案」及(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工智慧發展及管理條例草案」案；二、審查\n( 一) 委員林俊憲等23 人擬具「公路法第二十七條、第二十八條及第七十五條條文修正草案」、\n(二)委員陳冠廷等18人、(三)委員徐富癸等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」、\n(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「公路法第三十三條條文修正草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團、(六)委\n員馬文君等19 人、( 七) 委員邱若華等17 人分別擬具「公路法第三十九條之一條文修正草案」、\n(八)委員何欣純等18人擬具「公路法第四十六條及第六十條之一條文修正草案」、(九)委員王義\n川等16人擬具「公路法第六十五條條文修正草案」及(十)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「公路法第七十\n二條條文修正草案」案；三、審查 ( 一 ) 委員林俊憲等 22 人擬具「停車場法第四條條文修正草\n案」、(二)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」及(三)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「停車場法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。【本日會議僅針對開會事由二及三進行合併詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1144802_00001"}}},{"id":"161191","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161191","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d52b87d682861ed5532988fdfbeb5b66875394796d2191c023f0303f983ebd4ce0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"10:56:36 - 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謝謝主席 是不是請我們次長好 陳次長好 陳局長市長 局長早最近在討論那個我們那個人口啊人口修那個水啦 電啦 瓦斯啦這個要下地嘛要規範嘛"},{"start":33.201,"end":52.966,"text":"這個案子已經行之有年了我想請問一下這個人口蓋全國大概有數量多少?這裡面有電、水、電、瓦斯什麼的?這個我要...對有一百多萬現在目前沒有這樣的一個數據一百多萬處我覺得這個修的化知識體大你強制規範說"},{"start":63.171,"end":80.877,"text":"人孔蓋全部要下地對不對有特殊的,比如救災什麼需求這一些可以請求來處理問題是一百多萬戶的這一些人孔蓋因為它會有氣爆的問題因為這裡面沒有辦法揮發"},{"start":91.298,"end":113.828,"text":"會有公共的危險,你們有沒有考慮這個問題?我想跟委員報告,就是說有關這個是不是所有要下地,剛才委員特別提到我們不會去規定所有的要下地啦有些在什麼樣的情況下不是你的規範已經就這樣子啦這是相關委員的一個提案啦這是委員相關的一個提案啦你們交通部公路總經都沒有意見嗎?"},{"start":116.129,"end":140.843,"text":"我想請陳局長說明一下因為這個法已經在交通委員會討論了十幾年了十幾年了之前你們是有意見的這一次反常的我看沒什麼意見各位報告因為這個管線機構就是大概做的一些人孔蓋大概就是說在道路上面其實它有時候如果說修的不平整其實有時候比較容易就是說可能會有一些事故"},{"start":141.343,"end":166.355,"text":"所以現在大概就是說希望就是說人孔蓋挖了以後整條就是回填的包括這個人孔蓋跟回填的部分希望能夠跟道路齊平讓這個尤其是騎機車的能夠更安全那平整那當然就是說如果說它能夠下地的話是整個道路上面再重鋪的話其實它平整度就沒有問題所以有一些地方政府大概就是會有一些我講的是你有沒有考慮到氣爆的問題"},{"start":169.556,"end":198.019,"text":"因為底下不流通空氣不流通有電源電力公司就有電源通過他大概就是說可以下地因為他大概我的了解因為目前並不是強制現在大概有一些地方政府就是說他會要求就是說如果你不常開啟或者是就是說有特殊需要的話其實是不要下地如果說你不常開啟的那其實把它下地之後整個道路其實它平整度也沒有就是說在回田的時候可能會有凹陷的問題"},{"start":198.88,"end":222.978,"text":"不是,你這個法的修,是原則下地,例外不下地,你應該顛倒過來啊你應該是原則不下地,例外的話下地,應該是這樣啊你一百多萬出,我跟你講,你這個維修一次的成本大概一萬塊錢"},{"start":224.622,"end":241.561,"text":"一萬塊錢問題你要挖洞路上水泥的鋪面還有平整挖的那個坑洞洞的更多你們有沒有考慮這個問題我覺得你們公路總局應該要表示意見不能不表示意見"},{"start":243.953,"end":264.185,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下,就是有關人手孔蓋要下地的這件事情當然牽涉到道路主管機關,或者是相關管線埋設的單位的意見這個原則上我們大概都會充分的尊重,尤其是地方主管機關你們有尊重嗎?是,充分尊重他們一切你們有徵詢過中華電力公司嗎?有徵詢過中華電力公司嗎?有徵詢過水業署嗎?沒有所以他們有提出來意見啊?"},{"start":272.129,"end":295.975,"text":"所以我們會在相關的裡頭請他們來表示相關的意見那最主要這個法案的提出是委員的提案所以原則上我們尊重這個委員會的一個討論我跟他討論過這個事情我也跟委員提案這個提案不是這一次在109年就進行而且在109年之前還更早也被提出來過他沒有很堅持"},{"start":298.155,"end":322.627,"text":"所以整個 他沒有很堅持因為這個量體太大了他沒有很堅持而是你們公路總局這個案會診的時候我跟委員報告其實我們真的是尊重委員我們知道有這些各個面向的問題但是道路的平整度是要考慮的然後相關的維修的必要性也是要兼顧的我也贊成我也支持我也同意"},{"start":324.728,"end":353.837,"text":"所以這個條文要如何來修,我們原則上尊重委員會的一個條文他提案委員的主要是這樣是不是尊重地方政府你把這個權限授權地方政府要協調哪一些下地哪一些不下地應該不下地為原則那麼有一些要下地的有沒有你在整個工程審查的時候地方政府他要負起主要責任這才是正本清源之道"},{"start":355.182,"end":364.807,"text":"而不是說你們交通部公路總局你就尊重委員的意見,你把這個法定下去你定下去以後有一百多萬處委,我看你們怎麼處理"},{"start":365.899,"end":391.833,"text":"不可能嘛你只有逐年的去實施啦我跟委員報告一下或許是但是這個現在的修正的條文我稍微念一下它是公路主管機關有必要是得它還不是因是得要求下地但是如果管縣單位認為有特殊需求是可以免下地所以這也是符合剛才委員的意見是以地方主管機關來我是建議"},{"start":394.009,"end":419.65,"text":"這個法條修正的時候我們再聽聽大家的意見要地方政府也配合參與這個事情你起碼地方政府在審查的時候,你給他應該很大的權限因為道路主要還是地方政府在負責嘛你們怎麼可能管得那麼密密麻麻,枝枝節節的管那麼多勒是不是有的有需要,有的沒需要你這裡是講說下地的時候"},{"start":422.961,"end":438.204,"text":"他的特殊性就是救災啦或是幹什麼等等啦特殊原因可以不要下地但你這個本末顛倒啦,我是覺得你應該是你應該是原則上不下地啦"},{"start":439.212,"end":462.178,"text":"那麼下地的部分應該是特殊的需求應該把它顛倒過來沒有我跟據縣委員有討論過這個事情有關這個條文怎麼修如果到時候進入組條要討論的時候我想我們再跟委員來討教我們協商會等的時候注意一下這個問題好不好是是是是我們尊重整個委員會討論的結果好不好第四項跟第五項好不好是是是好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":503,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（10時56分）好，謝謝主席，請次長還有公路總局局長。"],["主席：請陳次長、陳局長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：次長、局長早。最近在討論要規範水、電、瓦斯管線人孔蓋下地的問題，這個案子已經行之有年，我想請問一下，全國人孔蓋的數量大概有多少？這裡面有電、水、瓦斯什麼等等。"],["陳次長彥伯：這個我要……"],["陳委員雪生：有一百多萬喔！"],["陳次長彥伯：目前沒有這樣的數據。"],["陳委員雪生：有一百多萬處，我覺得修這個是茲事體大，你們要強制規範人孔蓋全部下地，對不對？有特殊的，比如救災等需求的，可以請求處理，問題是一百多萬處的人孔蓋，因為這會有氣爆問題，裡面有些氣體可能沒有辦法揮發，會有公共危險，你們有沒有考慮這個問題？"],["陳次長彥伯：委員提到有關人孔蓋是不是全部都要下地的問題，其實我們不會規定所有都要下地，有些在什麼樣的情況下……"],["陳委員雪生：不是，你的規範已經就這樣子啦！"],["陳次長彥伯：這是委員相關的提案。"],["陳委員雪生：你們交通部公路總局都沒有意見嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個請陳局長說明。"],["陳委員雪生：因為這個法已經在交通委員會討論十幾年了，之前你們是有意見，但這一次很反常，我看是沒什麼意見。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟各位報告，管線機構做的一些人孔蓋在道路上面，有時候如果他們修得不平整，其實是比較容易發生一些事故，所以現在大概就是希望馬路挖了以後，回填時，包括人孔蓋的部分，希望能夠跟道路齊平，讓駕駛人，尤其是騎機車的人能夠更安全。當然，如果它能夠下地，整個道路再重鋪的話，平整度就沒有問題，所以有一些地方政府才會對一些管線機構有這樣的要求。"],["陳委員雪生：我講的問題是，你有沒有考慮到氣爆的問題？因為底下空氣不流通，又有電源，像電力公司的就有電源通過啊！"],["陳局長文瑞：這個意思是大概可以下地的，根據我的了解，目前並不是強制，現在有一些地方政府會要求如果人孔蓋不常開啟，或者有特殊需要，其實是不要下地，因為如果不常開啟，下地之後，整個道路在回填的時候，可能會有凹陷的問題，所以大概……"],["陳委員雪生：你這個法的修正是原則下地，例外不下地，你應該顛倒過來，應該是原則不下地，例外的話下地，應該是這樣啊！你有一百多萬處，我跟你講，這個維修一次成本大概一萬塊錢，問題是你要挖洞、路上水泥的鋪面，還有平整，挖了之後坑坑洞洞的更多，你們有沒有考慮這個問題？我覺得你們公路總局應該要表示意見，不能不表示意見。"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，有關人（手）孔蓋要下地這件事情，當然牽涉到道路主管機關或者是相關管線埋設單位的意見，原則上我們大概都會充分的尊重，尤其是地方主管機關……"],["陳委員雪生：你們有尊重嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，充分尊重他們的意見。"],["陳委員雪生：你們有徵詢過台灣電力公司嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：所以剛才有特別提到是不是要下……"],["陳委員雪生：有徵詢過中華電信嗎？有徵詢過水業處嗎？沒有吧！因為他們有提出意見啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：所以我們會在相關的討論中請他們來表示相關的意見，最主要這個法案是委員提出的提案，所以原則上我們尊重委員會的討論。"],["陳委員雪生：沒有錯，俊憲委員的提案我跟他討論過這個事情……"],["陳次長彥伯：這個提案不是這一次才提出，在109年就出現，而且更早在109年之前也被提出來過。"],["陳委員雪生：我知道，俊憲委員沒有很堅持，因為這個量體太大了，他沒有很堅持，而是你們公路總局彙整這個案的時候……"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，其實我們真的是尊重委員，我們知道有這些各個面向的問題，但是道路的平整度是要考慮的，相關維修的必要性也是要兼顧的，所以相關的條文……"],["陳委員雪生：我也贊成、我也支持、我也同意，我跟俊憲委員討論的同時……"],["陳次長彥伯：所以這個條文要如何修，我們原則上尊重委員會的意見。"],["陳委員雪生：提案委員主要的意思是這樣，是不是尊重地方政府？你把這個權限授權地方政府，讓它協調哪一些下地、哪一些不下地，應該以不下地為原則，有一些要下地的，在整個功能審查的時候，地方政府要負起主要責任，這才是正本清源之道，而不是你們交通部公路總局就說尊重委員的意見，把這個法定下去，你定下去以後有一百多萬處，我看你們怎麼處理，不可能嘛！你只有逐年實施。"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，我稍微唸一下現在這個修正的條文，它是公路主管機關有必要時「得」要求下地，它不是「應」，但是如果管線單位認為有特殊需求可以免下地，所以這也符合剛才委員的意見，是由地方主管機關來……"],["陳委員雪生：我知道，次長、局長，我是建議，這個法條修正的時候，你們能不能參酌一下……"],["陳次長彥伯：我們再來聽聽大家的意見。"],["陳委員雪生：要地方政府也配合參與這個事情？起碼地方政府在審查的時候，你應該給它很大的權限，因為這個道路主要還是地方政府在負責，你們怎麼可能管得那麼密密麻麻、枝枝節節的，怎麼可能管那麼多呢！是不是？有的有需要，有的沒需要，這裡是說下地的時候，因為它的特殊性，如救災等等，有特殊原因可以不要下地，但你這個本末顛倒啦！我覺得應該是原則上不下地，下地的部分應該是特殊的需求，應該把它顛倒過來。我跟俊憲委員有討論過這個事情……"],["陳次長彥伯：有關這個條文怎麼修，如果到時候進入逐條要討論的時候，我們再跟委員討教，然後尊重委員會的意見。"],["陳委員雪生：你們協商會討論的時候注意一下這個問題好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們尊重整個委員會討論的結果。"],["陳委員雪生：第四項跟第五項，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["陳委員雪生：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生委員的質詢。休息時間更正，魯明哲委員質詢完畢休息5分鐘，現在請魯明哲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-11","speakers":["林國成","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","許智傑","陳素月","蔡其昌","何欣純","林俊憲","張啓楷","廖先翔","李昆澤","游顥","黃健豪","陳雪生","魯明哲","徐富癸","邱若華","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員吳宗憲等17人、(二)委員賴士葆等28人、(三)委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具「人\n工智慧基本法草案」及(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工智慧發展及管理條例草案」案；二、審查\n( 一) 委員林俊憲等23 人擬具「公路法第二十七條、第二十八條及第七十五條條文修正草案」、\n(二)委員陳冠廷等18人、(三)委員徐富癸等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」、\n(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「公路法第三十三條條文修正草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團、(六)委\n員馬文君等19 人、( 七) 委員邱若華等17 人分別擬具「公路法第三十九條之一條文修正草案」、\n(八)委員何欣純等18人擬具「公路法第四十六條及第六十條之一條文修正草案」、(九)委員王義\n川等16人擬具「公路法第六十五條條文修正草案」及(十)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「公路法第七十\n二條條文修正草案」案；三、審查 ( 一 ) 委員林俊憲等 22 人擬具「停車場法第四條條文修正草\n案」、(二)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」及(三)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「停車場法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。【本日會議僅針對開會事由二及三進行合併詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1144802_00001"}}},{"id":"161190","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161190","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d5298f186fbe8577f38988fdfbeb5b66875394796d2191c023f87e74d03d353af155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"10:48:53 - 10:56:24","影片長度":"00:07:31","會議時間":"2025-05-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查(一)委員吳宗憲等17人、(二)委員賴士葆等28人、(三)委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」及(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工智慧發展及管理條例草案」案。\n二、審查(一)委員林俊憲等23人擬具「公路法第二十七條、第二十八條及第七十五條條文修正草案」、(二)委員陳冠廷等18人、(三)委員徐富癸等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「公路法第三十三條條文修正草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團、(六)委員馬文君等19人、(七)委員邱若華等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十九條之一條文修正草案」、(八)委員何欣純等18人擬具「公路法第四十六條及第六十條之一條文修正草案」、(九)委員王義川等16人擬具「公路法第六十五條條文修正草案」及(十)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「公路法第七十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查(一)委員林俊憲等22人擬具「停車場法第四條條文修正草案」、(二)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」及(三)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「停車場法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n【本日會議僅針對開會事由二及三進行合併詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-12","start_time":"2025-05-12T10:48:53+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-12T10:56:24+08:00","duration":451,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.2415937500000003,"end":5.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.0934687499999995,"end":6.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.695968750000002,"end":78.76971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.39409375000001,"end":87.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.24096875000001,"end":99.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.26846875000001,"end":100.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.02784375,"end":102.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.90096875,"end":105.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.06096875,"end":120.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.41721875,"end":131.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.04409375,"end":168.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.74284375000002,"end":177.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.26909375000002,"end":179.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.95221875000001,"end":186.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.83721875,"end":218.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.61284375000002,"end":239.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.52096875,"end":247.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.21159375000002,"end":250.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.62471875000003,"end":257.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.04971875,"end":259.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.42909375,"end":315.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.83409375,"end":325.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.09971875,"end":316.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.37659375000004,"end":365.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.43784375,"end":367.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.43346875000003,"end":368.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.58909375,"end":370.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.09534375000004,"end":423.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.65096875,"end":379.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.71159375,"end":429.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":430.52909375,"end":448.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.95659375,"end":449.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.15471875000003,"end":450.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.28971875,"end":450.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.39096875,"end":450.49221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.485,"end":5.573,"text":"好謝謝主席我們先請這個交通部政事陳政事"},{"start":12.274,"end":26.498,"text":"我們先討論一下 我想最近這個新聞上也看到說我們的關於無照駕駛的造勢案件 其實他的實際上件數跟死亡數已經超越了9家案件了 你看一下這個數字無照駕駛在2023年 這個死亡人數是763人 酒醉駕駛造導致的死亡造勢人數253人所以換句話說 國人或整個社會我們"},{"start":33.98,"end":54.887,"text":"當然長期很關注所謂酒駕的造成的這個事故但從數字上看起來無照駕駛導致的案件跟生命財產的損失遠遠高於這個酒醉駕駛那當然我們知道說在2023年4月的時候已經有修法加重在這個罰環的部分修法前是一萬二那修法後有加了兩萬四所以確實整個罰環有提高但這個修法的結果如果從這個數據上看起來"},{"start":62.429,"end":78.135,"text":"修法之後他基本上他的死亡跟肇事人數並沒有明顯的下降沒有明顯的改善那原因當然在於說很多無照駕駛人他雙手一攤子我沒錢或是他未成年或等等的他就不繳了就算了所以他的事故持續在發生所以我要問交通部的意見是說"},{"start":79.468,"end":102.058,"text":"就像我們自己在處理假車牌問題一樣本期在立法院的時候也曾經建議過當然現在也往這個方向修法這個上個週有三度通過了嘛在這個假車牌的部分最後我們有一個共識式可以這個沒入車輛那像這樣無照駕駛有沒有考慮過除了罰錢之外是不是也應該來研議這個沒入車輛的條件市長或是我們局長都可以回應"},{"start":102.958,"end":129.467,"text":"也是這個部分報告這個委員針對無照駕駛的這個部分的話那交通部大概也有擬居一個這個加重處罰的版本那現在也就是行政院已經通過了那後面院會通過之後就會送來這個立法院做審議那目前這個版本加重的部分大概就是幾個重點第一個部分現行保管最高額這一個兩萬四比照危險駕駛提高到這三萬六那另外一個部分當場一致保管車輛然後呢並扣繳這一個"},{"start":133.048,"end":155.939,"text":"這一個牌照那針對這個車輛的部分的話大家對於這個就是說無照當然無照駕駛如果發生這個形式相關的一個傷亡等等部分的話那就是一個證據那個依照情報就可以去做處理那針對一般的那個部分的話大概就是說調控這個車輛這個牌照那現行加重處分的一個規定的話針對出犯的部分原來有一個月"},{"start":156.779,"end":178.352,"text":"這個提高到吊扣牌照這一個三個月五年內兩次的話由三個月提高到這個半年那五年內三次以上的話就是由六個月提高到欸這個一年那其他未成年人的部分先行就有病處罰這個家長這些相關的一個規定以上大概這個跟局長跟市長說"},{"start":180.011,"end":200.402,"text":"就像我還是要講一下之前我們在處理假車牌的時候也常常使用這個吊扣牌照等等的手段但實際上就是因為吊扣牌照他就另外處理就好了嘛他還是可以上路啊他這個人這個人他還是有工具可以去做這樣的事情同樣的無招駕駛也是一樣問題嘛你把他牌照吊扣了是針對這台車但他這個人好他第一個他可能沒有錢繳罰款"},{"start":201.503,"end":217.949,"text":"那再來他同樣的可以去開別的車不管是跟朋友借的還是有些不孝車行租給他的等等的所以他還是存在這個問題嘛所以我才問說在什麼樣條件下如果你們因為你剛剛提到的版本包含說你可能現在送行政院版本也都是在針對這個吊銬牌照在做處分可是如果"},{"start":218.949,"end":247.218,"text":"這個車子它本身還是存在的它並沒有嚴重的就對借它車輛的人也好或是它駕駛的這個車輛不管它自己持有或是它是別人的它在它的財產上它並沒有任何損失我們通過罰緩或通過其他方式是希望它有警惕的作用所以它可以去做它不要再無招下了不要再上路了但在實際上你並沒有真正把它的作案的工具做這件事情的工具去處理當然我是覺得說這部分我不知道你們有沒有想過說真的"},{"start":248.297,"end":258.834,"text":"之前的案例我們超過那個假車牌的問題就是後來用末路車輛來處分那我不知道為什麼你們這個無招駕駛這部分不能去照這方向來走問題會卡在哪裡"},{"start":260.672,"end":282.249,"text":"跟委員報告 其實要沒入車輛這件事情在這個不管是在法案討論的時候我相信各委員之間大概都是算是一個很高度要討論的一個事項因為你畢竟不是把車輛沒入 而且車輛沒入是可責性委員剛才特別提到 這是駕駛人的違規 無照駕駛那這是處罰人 這是讓沒入車"},{"start":284.611,"end":304.44,"text":"那之間如何連結然後如何讓他變成可責性這個所以我才會講到說在所有的處罰條例對於沒入車輛都是經過非常這個嚴謹然後大家共同的討論所以目前交通部所提出來在行政院的版本是沒有這個有關沒入車輛的部分"},{"start":305,"end":325.578,"text":"那所以當然我也有這樣的一個建議 我們蠻尊重的如果有機會的時候 我想可以在立法院的時候你們再思考一下啦 目錄車輛的部分 因為像這個無照價值剛剛提到了在最近幾年每年造成死亡 就是光是無照價值的死亡人數按照大家的統計大概就七八百位 一年喔"},{"start":327.065,"end":346.26,"text":"所以你說調通牌照出去罰款其實看起來效果不差如果他還是能夠出去做這樣的事情那我想這個部分死亡人數可能還是不會有明顯的下降這是我還是要提出來的建議那最後這段時間這個無照駕駛當然有一部分是青少年的部分那當然我現在考照的這年齡是18歲"},{"start":347.541,"end":368.559,"text":"那有沒有考慮過依照其他先進國家與其放任這些完全沒有駕駛概念的人上路那我們是不是有沒有考慮過把這個乾脆駕照年齡下修他可以駕駛某一種車輛或某種排氣量的等級的車子至少他在上路前他知道他有一個基本的交通法規或交通倫理嘛不知道交通部有沒有考慮過這個方向"},{"start":371.633,"end":382.368,"text":"這個部分我也跟委員報告一下大概就是說以往大家都在討論說先行考照18歲可否下降到16歲這個部分那其實這個部分的話部裡面從這個105年109年然後到111年"},{"start":386.593,"end":407.178,"text":"大概都有跨部位甚至包括找家長團體大家來共同討論那討論的一個結論是大家還是認為說還是要維持現行的部分那另外一點就是跟委員也報告因為現在的這個運居的分類包括現在有這個微型電動二輪車那14歲以上大概就可以其實這個是不需要駕駛執照的部分"},{"start":407.658,"end":429.446,"text":"那但是這個部分我們公共監獄機關也在做這些相關駕駛安全教育的部分所以大家在講說有些學生等等的部分的話這個基本上大概也有這樣子的運氣可以做選擇那至於駕照連連那個部分的話可能必須要社會再做一個討論好沒關係你們目前比較保守啦但我還是建議說這個東西實際面上這些人他還是會開上路"},{"start":430.578,"end":447.487,"text":"我們實務上看到就是這個問題當然它是違法的只是說既然他還是會上路有這個問題高中很多人就無招駕駛跑在馬路上面的那為了解決這個問題或是說可以去思考到底怎麼樣的年齡去適合他有這個能力去做這樣的事情我是希望教授們在這個變相上面都稍微積極一點好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":489,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（10時48分）謝謝主席，我們先請交通部政次。"],["主席：請陳政次。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：次長好。我想先討論一下，最近在新聞上看到無照駕駛的肇事案件件數跟死亡數已經超越了酒駕案件，你看一下這個數字，無照駕駛在2023年造成的死亡人數是763人，酒醉駕駛導致死亡人數是253人。國人或整個社會長期很關注所謂酒駕造成的事故，但是從數字上看起來，其實無照駕駛導致的案件造成的生命財產的損失，遠遠高於酒醉駕駛。當然我們知道2023年4月已經有修法加重罰則，在罰鍰部分修法前是一萬二，修法後加到兩萬四，整個罰鍰確實有提高，但是這個修法的結果，如果從數據上看起來，修法之後基本上死亡跟肇事人數並沒有明顯的下降跟改善。原因當然在於很多無照駕駛出事以後就雙手一攤說他沒錢，或是他未成年等等，他就不繳了、就算了，以致讓事故持續發生，所以我要問交通部的意見，就像我們之前處理假車牌問題一樣，本席在立法院也曾經建議過，當然現在也是往這個方向修法，上週也三讀通過，在假車牌的部分，最後我們的共識是可以沒入車輛，那像無照駕駛的部分，有沒有考慮除了罰錢之外，是不是也應該研議沒入車輛的條件？請次長或局長回應。"],["林司長福山：報告委員，針對無照駕駛的部分，交通部也有擬具一個加重處罰的版本，等行政院院會通過之後，就會送立法院審議。目前這個加重處罰的版本，大概有幾個重點：第一，現行罰鍰最高額是二萬四，比照危險駕駛提高到三萬六；另外，當場移置保管車輛，並扣繳牌照，當然無照駕駛如果發生刑事相關傷亡等等，就是一個證據，依照刑法就可以處理；針對一般部分，大概是吊扣車輛牌照，現行加重處分的規定，針對初犯部分，由原來一個月提高到吊扣牌照三個月；五年內兩次的話，由三個月提高到半年；五年內三次以上，就由六個月提高到一年；其他未成年人部分，現行就有並處罰家長的一些相關規定，以上大概跟委員說明。"],["黃委員健豪：我還是要講一下，之前我們處理假車牌的時候，也常常使用吊扣牌照等手段，但實際上因為吊扣牌照他就另外處理就好了，還是可以上路，這個人還是有工具可以去做這樣的事情，同樣無照駕駛也是一樣的問題，你把他的牌照吊扣了，是針對這臺車，但他這個人，第一個，他可能沒有錢繳罰鍰；再來，他同樣可以去開別的車，不管是跟朋友借的，還是一些不肖車行租給他的等等，問題還是會存在嘛！所以我才問說，在什麼條件之下，因為你剛剛提到的版本，包含可能現在已經送行政院的版本，也都是針對吊扣牌照在做處分，可是這個車子本身還是存在，它並沒有嚴重的……就是對借他車輛的人也好，或他駕駛的車輛也好，不管是他自己持有或是別人的，他在財產上並沒有任何損失，我們透過罰鍰或其他方式處罰他，是希望有警惕作用，不要再無照駕駛、不要再上路了，但實際上你並沒有真正把他的作案工具、做這件事情的工具作處理。針對這部分，我不知道你們有沒有想過之前的案例，就是透過假車牌的問題，後來用沒入車輛來處分，那我不知道為什麼在無照駕駛的這部分，不能也照這個方向來走？問題卡在哪裡？"],["陳次長彥伯：跟委員報告，沒入車輛這件事情，在法案討論的時候，其實在各委員之間，算是一個高度要討論的事項，畢竟是把車輛沒入，而且車輛沒入是可責性，委員剛才特別提到，這是駕駛人違規、無照駕駛，是處罰人，和沒入車之間如何連結，如何讓它變成可責性？所以我才會說在所有的處罰條例裡，對於沒入車輛都是經過大家非常嚴謹的討論，而目前交通部所提出來在行政院的版本，是沒有有關沒入車輛的部分，當然委員有這樣的建議，我們是蠻尊重的，如果有機會的話，我想可以在立法院大家……"],["黃委員健豪：對啦！你們再思考一下沒入車輛的部分，因為像無照駕駛剛剛也提到了，按照交通部統計，光是無照駕駛造成的死亡人數，一年就大概有七、八百位，你說吊扣牌照、處予罰鍰，其實看起來效果不差，但如果他還是能持續去做這樣的事情，我想這部分的死亡人數可能還是不會有明顯下降，所以我還是要提出這樣的建議。","最後一點時間，無照駕駛當然有一部分涉及青少年，當然，我國現行考照年齡是18歲，你們有沒有考慮過比照其他先進國家下修？與其放任這些完全沒有駕駛概念的人上路，我們是不是考慮過乾脆把駕照年齡下修，讓他可以駕駛某一種車輛或某一種排氣量等級的車子，至少在他上路前，已經知道一些基本的交通法規或交通倫理，不知道交通部有沒有考慮過這方向？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，這個部分大概就是以往大家討論的現行考照年齡18歲可否下降到16歲的部分，其實部裡面從105年、109年到111年，大概都有跨部會討論過，甚至也找了家長團體大家共同討論，結論是大家還是認為要維持現行規定；另外一點，也跟委員報告，因為現在的運具分類，包括現有的微型電動二輪車，是14歲以上就可以騎乘，而且不需要駕駛執照，但是公路監理機關針對這個部分，也會著重在相關駕駛安全教育等等，所以大家就認為學生的部分，基本上大概也有這樣的運具可以選擇。至於駕照年齡的部分，可能必須社會再做討論。"],["黃委員健豪：好，沒關係，你們目前是比較保守，但我還是要建議，因為這些人還是會開車上路，我們在實務上看到的就有這樣的問題，當然他是違法的，只是說既然他還是會上路，就會有這個問題，像現在高中很多人無照駕駛就跑到馬路上了，為了解決這個問題，我建議可以思考到底什麼樣的年齡會有能力適合去做這樣的事情？希望交通部在這上面可以稍微積極一點，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員質詢。","現在請陳雪生委員質詢。陳雪生委員質詢完畢，休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-11","speakers":["林國成","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","許智傑","陳素月","蔡其昌","何欣純","林俊憲","張啓楷","廖先翔","李昆澤","游顥","黃健豪","陳雪生","魯明哲","徐富癸","邱若華","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員吳宗憲等17人、(二)委員賴士葆等28人、(三)委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具「人\n工智慧基本法草案」及(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工智慧發展及管理條例草案」案；二、審查\n( 一) 委員林俊憲等23 人擬具「公路法第二十七條、第二十八條及第七十五條條文修正草案」、\n(二)委員陳冠廷等18人、(三)委員徐富癸等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」、\n(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「公路法第三十三條條文修正草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團、(六)委\n員馬文君等19 人、( 七) 委員邱若華等17 人分別擬具「公路法第三十九條之一條文修正草案」、\n(八)委員何欣純等18人擬具「公路法第四十六條及第六十條之一條文修正草案」、(九)委員王義\n川等16人擬具「公路法第六十五條條文修正草案」及(十)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「公路法第七十\n二條條文修正草案」案；三、審查 ( 一 ) 委員林俊憲等 22 人擬具「停車場法第四條條文修正草\n案」、(二)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」及(三)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「停車場法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。【本日會議僅針對開會事由二及三進行合併詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1144802_00001"}}},{"id":"161189","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161189","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d52ccc7d2162f3e2681988fdfbeb5b66875394796d2191c023ff8442d53e673a3d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"10:41:35 - 10:48:46","影片長度":"00:07:11","會議時間":"2025-05-12T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查(一)委員吳宗憲等17人、(二)委員賴士葆等28人、(三)委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」及(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工智慧發展及管理條例草案」案。\n二、審查(一)委員林俊憲等23人擬具「公路法第二十七條、第二十八條及第七十五條條文修正草案」、(二)委員陳冠廷等18人、(三)委員徐富癸等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」、(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「公路法第三十三條條文修正草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團、(六)委員馬文君等19人、(七)委員邱若華等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十九條之一條文修正草案」、(八)委員何欣純等18人擬具「公路法第四十六條及第六十條之一條文修正草案」、(九)委員王義川等16人擬具「公路法第六十五條條文修正草案」及(十)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「公路法第七十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查(一)委員林俊憲等22人擬具「停車場法第四條條文修正草案」、(二)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」及(三)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「停車場法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n【本日會議僅針對開會事由二及三進行合併詢答】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-12","start_time":"2025-05-12T10:41:35+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-12T10:48:46+08:00","duration":431,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.734718750000001,"end":7.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.287218750000001,"end":8.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.92409375,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.35784375,"end":29.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.49034375,"end":30.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.96284375,"end":32.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.51534375,"end":32.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.970968750000004,"end":33.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.34221875,"end":40.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.40409375,"end":46.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.66096875,"end":45.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.94346875,"end":51.516593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.76534375,"end":55.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.56659375,"end":56.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.697218750000005,"end":66.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.29471875,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.92284375,"end":88.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.82721875,"end":140.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.46034375000002,"end":147.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.02909375000002,"end":151.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.35721875000002,"end":153.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.94784375,"end":160.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.68096875,"end":160.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.05221875,"end":161.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.06909375,"end":173.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.64534375000002,"end":186.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.78659375,"end":188.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.80346875,"end":187.39409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.70596875,"end":190.34721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.65096875,"end":283.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.88534375,"end":293.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.97659375,"end":344.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.93909375000004,"end":369.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":370.99409375000005,"end":376.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.02284375000005,"end":424.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.82534375,"end":425.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":426.51284375,"end":427.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.60971875,"end":428.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":429.56721875000005,"end":430.96784375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.974,"end":10.397,"text":"謝謝大委主席 謝謝趙偉那有請次長好 陳彥博次長委員好次長好那剛才其實委員都有在關心電動車的部分那在目前來講的話燃料稅有關於電動車來講現在是預計是可能會在2030的時候開始開車沒錯嗎"},{"start":31.53,"end":51.289,"text":"部裡頭朝這個方向來規劃那目前來講在電動車小客車的這個目前的普及率你看大約最新的數據是幾%目前那個電動車小小汽車啦大概是10萬輛左右10萬輛左右那目前原本預估在今年的話預計要達到多少比例"},{"start":53.611,"end":69.802,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下去年跟這個今年應該是10%啦那去年這個電動小車的部分都有達標那我們預估今年應該也會達標那所以說今年預計的話年底要達到多少量"},{"start":71.354,"end":86.394,"text":"因為這個是相對這個新車試作比就是你賣出去新車然後佔一級的比例所以這個幾輛如果按照這個國內如果說一年這個新車大概這個四十幾萬輛的部分的話那今年我們是預計目標是四萬輛的這個電動小客車"},{"start":89.208,"end":104.403,"text":"因為去年打到3.8萬輛嘛所以幾乎打到九成啦那沒關係 那直接就叫這個貨物稅八項減稅的這個部分啊那因為我們現在看到川普的這個高關稅的這個政策啊那所以大概是人心惶惶那對於國內車要購買這個電動車的這個意願啊"},{"start":109.508,"end":131.037,"text":"那大家其實也會擔心說在今年的年底啊那其實電動車免稅就要到期啊那這包括這個汽機車的太舊換新也是要在明年的1月7號就要到期啊那所以在針對這個忽稅的這兩項那我相信交通部一直以來也都有跟財政部都有研擬這個就是檢討方案要延長"},{"start":131.977,"end":150.728,"text":"那我想藉這個機會來請教一下那這個延長的方案預計會這個免稅會再延長多久是3年還是5年這一部分我們就尊重財政部的一個規劃原則上我們是支持繼續延長那你們支持的話是大約方向上的話會是再多久"},{"start":153.996,"end":171.309,"text":"因為財政部每次他也是有一個規劃的一個期程所以原則上是依他規劃的期程來那所以說延長的話 方向上當然是延長是方向以這個方面沒有錯啦那期程的話有沒有覺得說預計的話會再多多少時間 延長多少"},{"start":172.79,"end":173.17,"text":"那會不會至少延長三年?"},{"start":191.366,"end":212.288,"text":"因為不可能交通部都沒有想法或是沒有建議方案啦原則上我們就是支持財政部的一個想法就等他們公布就是了好啦沒關係不勉強那最主要是說在目前電動車的這種普及率啊其實在包括在203年的這個淨零排碳的目標啊其實還是有很大的一個距離要努力啦"},{"start":212.668,"end":240.944,"text":"那所以說在這個貨物稅尤其是在川普他這個關稅政策的這個情況之下其實對於電動車大家的使用包括未來的物價膨脹其實大家是人心惶惶所以說是建議那交通部也是具體的表達延長的態度之外更能夠及早的來跟社會各界來去做一個說明包括配合財政部能夠及早說明我相信這個對於市場的就是消費者他購買意願來講絕對是有正向的提升"},{"start":241.624,"end":263.104,"text":"那所以本席在這裡還是提出建議那另外就是上次在1月8號的時候本席是有提到這個電動車的電動樁在許多的交通的相關機關它目前它的這個電動樁的一個數量那時候詢問過許多的單位那本席也看到了在"},{"start":264.105,"end":282.999,"text":"這是高速公路的南投休息站啊那在這兩三個月大型土木啊他就有趕快來增加這個電動裝跟停車的電動車的充電設備啊那我想直接請教一下局長那這個部分為我們南投縣的南投休息站提升或改善了多少"},{"start":284.159,"end":299.305,"text":"包委南投服務區目前在做的是那個太陽能光電的部分那充電裝的部分都已經全國道都已經裝去完巴黎都已經完成了所以說就在包括太陽能關電包括那個上面遮雨的那個部分都一次完成嘛好"},{"start":299.845,"end":321.6,"text":"那就再次的感謝那同樣的那延續著剛才其實廖先祥委員他有提到這個充電樁的設備他就是會影響到大家停留的時間那目前來講的話其實在以目前的電動車跟充電樁的比例來講將近是30幾比1的這個情況之下其實在整體的這個充電樁的設備其實嚴重不足啊"},{"start":321.86,"end":342.755,"text":"那尤其是在大偶大廈的這種老舊的大廈其實在設一個充電樁其實是非常的困難那其實在許多的公共的設施公共的環境來講還是要積極的來提高這個充電樁的這個設施那才能夠改善不管是停留時間或是包括整體大家使用電動車的意願那最後的話我本期來針對這個"},{"start":345.057,"end":369.535,"text":"交通部這邊南投幸福巴是2.0上路啊那之前本席跟許竹華許縣長這邊跟南投縣政府有爭取這個民間竹山鹿谷三個鄉鎮來做試辦那在中央公共運輸計畫專案補助經費來講那本席在這裡也在拜託交通部把後面我們在南投縣剩下的十個鄉鎮一樣來協助是不是可以"},{"start":371.178,"end":389.245,"text":"我想應該是可以有需要的話我想公務局大概都會協助好 那本席在這裡另外要再提出一下就是說因為像南投線的話它有些它不一定是用巴士那雖然部部共乘它幸福巴士它有些的話是大概是五人坐的客車其他是屬於用計程車的業者"},{"start":390.445,"end":404.414,"text":"還來去協助來補充這個較為偏鄉的這種交通運輸可是在計程車的這個總量管制的部分在南投縣目前有這個計程車的這個車輛不足3%那所以說其實在南投縣要持續在推行這個鄉鎮的事辦"},{"start":406.195,"end":427.948,"text":"第一需要我們交通部在經費上面能夠持續的協助那第二也需要來協助南投縣政府在計程車業者輔導人能夠投入在這個運送我們偏鄉的長輩還能夠完成這個幸福巴士2.0的部分來在這個計程車車牌的這個申請上給予協助好 謝謝我們會來協助是好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":452,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（10時41分）謝謝召委，有請次長。"],["主席：請陳彥伯次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["游委員顥：次長好。剛才委員都在關心電動車的部分，在目前來講，電動車的燃料稅預計在2030年開始開徵，沒錯吧？"],["陳次長彥伯：部裡頭朝這個方向來規劃。"],["游委員顥：目前來講，電動小客車的普及率，最新的數據是幾%？"],["陳次長彥伯：目前電動小汽車大概是10萬輛左右。"],["游委員顥：原本預估在今年要達到多少比例？"],["林司長福山：這個部分跟委員報告一下，今年應該是10%，去年電動小客車的部分都有達標，我們預估今年應該也會達標。"],["游委員顥：所以今年預計年底要達到多少輛？"],["林司長福山：因為這是相對新車市售比，就是在賣出去的新車中所占據的比例，所以如果按照國內一年新車大概四十幾萬輛，那我們的目標預計是4萬輛的電動小客車。"],["游委員顥：因為去年達到3.8萬輛，幾乎達到九成。沒關係，直接就教關於貨物稅八項減稅的部分，我們現在看到川普的高關稅政策，大家也是人心惶惶，對於國內購買電動車的意願，大家也會擔心今年年底電動車免稅就要到期了，包括汽機車的汰舊換新也將在明年的1月7號到期，針對這兩項的貨物稅，我相信交通部一直以來都有跟財政部在檢討方案要延長，我想藉這個機會來請教一下，延長的方案預計免稅會再延長多久？是3年還是5年？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想這一部分，我們就尊重財政部的規劃，原則上我們是支持繼續延長。"],["游委員顥：你們支持的話，方向上大約會是多久？"],["陳次長彥伯：因為財政部每次也是有一個規劃的期程，原則上是依他規劃的期程來……"],["游委員顥：方向上當然是延長，沒有錯啦，那期程有沒有預計會再延長多久？"],["陳次長彥伯：因為所有的尤其是電動車的推動，或淨零轉型的推動，都是滾動檢討，所以走向是朝這個方向，但是真正的期程還是要看每一個階段來決定。"],["游委員顥：那會不會至少再延長3年？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想我們……"],["游委員顥：因為交通部不可能都沒有想法，或沒有建議方案啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：原則上我們就是支持財政部的想法。"],["游委員顥：就等他們公布就對了？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["游委員顥：好啦，沒關係，不勉強。最主要是說目前電動車的普及率，包括2030年的淨零排碳的目標，其實還有很大的距離要努力，所以相關的貨物稅，尤其是在川普的關稅政策之下，對於電動車的使用，包括未來的物價膨脹，大家其實是人心惶惶，所以建議交通部除了具體表達延長的態度之外，更能夠及早的來跟社會各界做一個說明，包括配合財政部及早說明，我相信這對於消費者的購買意願來講絕對有正向的提升，所以本席在這裡還是提出建議。","另外，在1月8號本席有提到電動車的電動樁，許多交通相關機關目前的電動樁數量不足，本席那時候詢問過許多單位，而且本席也看到高速公路的南投休息站這兩、三個月大興土木，就是為了增加電動樁跟電動車的充電設備，我想直接請教一下局長，這個部分為我們南投休息站提升或改善了多少？"],["趙局長興華：報告委員，南投服務區目前在做的是太陽能光電的部分，充電樁的部分全國道在去年8月都已經完成了。"],["游委員顥：所以是太陽能光電包括上面遮雨的部分都一次完成？"],["趙局長興華：是。"],["游委員顥：好，那就再次感謝。","剛才廖先翔委員有提到充電樁的設備會影響到大家停留的時間，以目前的電動車跟充電樁的比例來講，將近是三十幾比一，整體的充電樁設備其實是嚴重不足的，尤其是老舊的大廈，設一個充電樁非常困難，所以許多公共設施、公共環境還是要積極的提高充電樁的設施，才能夠改善不管是停留時間或是大家使用電動車的意願。","最後，本席要針對交通部規劃的南投幸福巴士2.0上路就教，之前本席跟許淑華縣長、南投縣政府有爭取在民間、竹山、鹿谷三個鄉鎮試辦，以中央公共運輸計畫專案補助經費來講，本席在這裡再拜託交通部同樣來協助我們南投縣剩下的10個鄉鎮，是不是可以？"],["陳次長彥伯：這部分我想應該是可以，有需要的話，我想公路局大概都會協助。"],["游委員顥：好，本席在這裡還要提出另外一項，以南投縣來說，不一定是用巴士，而是用五人座的客車，屬於用計程車業者去協助補充較為偏鄉的交通運輸，可是南投縣目前的計程車總量不足3%，所以其實南投縣要持續推行鄉鎮試辦，第一需要交通部在經費上持續的協助，第二也需要協助南投縣政府輔導計程車業者投入運送偏鄉長輩，並且能夠完成幸福巴士2.0的部分，在計程車車牌的申請上給予協助，謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：我們會來協助，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝游顥委員的質詢。","現在請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-11","speakers":["林國成","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","許智傑","陳素月","蔡其昌","何欣純","林俊憲","張啓楷","廖先翔","李昆澤","游顥","黃健豪","陳雪生","魯明哲","徐富癸","邱若華","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員吳宗憲等17人、(二)委員賴士葆等28人、(三)委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具「人\n工智慧基本法草案」及(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工智慧發展及管理條例草案」案；二、審查\n( 一) 委員林俊憲等23 人擬具「公路法第二十七條、第二十八條及第七十五條條文修正草案」、\n(二)委員陳冠廷等18人、(三)委員徐富癸等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」、\n(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「公路法第三十三條條文修正草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團、(六)委\n員馬文君等19 人、( 七) 委員邱若華等17 人分別擬具「公路法第三十九條之一條文修正草案」、\n(八)委員何欣純等18人擬具「公路法第四十六條及第六十條之一條文修正草案」、(九)委員王義\n川等16人擬具「公路法第六十五條條文修正草案」及(十)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「公路法第七十\n二條條文修正草案」案；三、審查 ( 一 ) 委員林俊憲等 22 人擬具「停車場法第四條條文修正草\n案」、(二)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」及(三)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「停車場法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。【本日會議僅針對開會事由二及三進行合併詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1144802_00001"}}},{"id":"161188","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161188","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d52dddde15d7c9643ba63ba08a40ece61fc394796d2191c023f66fd7484734a17d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:03:10 - 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稍微我們各位委員有請這個人事長請人事長還有考選部部長考選部前續部也一起上來委員早好早這個公務員服務法第二條我先請教那個人事長人事長"},{"start":34.943,"end":61.782,"text":"公務員服務法第二條本法適用於受有奉給之無五職公務員及公務員事業機構純勞工以外之人員這個在人事行政總署的系統裡面除了這個公務員你們有對不對有嗎公務員的資料有那個公務員事業的這個部分你們有嗎"},{"start":64.656,"end":92.389,"text":"在你們的系統裡面我請教一下委員你指的是公營事業是哪一方面的資料就是公務員服務法第二條所定義的公務員公營事業就是從勞工以外的人員都是都是公務員因為公務員服務法第二條是很廣義的前序部有嗎你們的系統裡面有嗎"},{"start":94.799,"end":121.482,"text":"我們只會有要送省的一個資料好 所以人事好 我的我的將長 董事長我們先看接下來的公職人員選舉罷免法第77條規定現役軍人服替代役之現役役男或公務人員不得為罷免提議被罷免案的提議人所以呢"},{"start":123.369,"end":139.089,"text":"這個中央選舉委員會或是地方選舉委員會收到罷免案的時候會請人事行政總署查核這個提議人有沒有剛才所講的公務員服務法的第二條"},{"start":142.253,"end":160.318,"text":"我跟委員報告我們部確實有接受這個中選會如果他們覺得有會送給我們查他是不是公務人員這個事情對那你們有查核到因為你剛已經說明嘛你的系統只有我們只有送審的嘛送審的公務人員我們確實有這我了解對對"},{"start":161.238,"end":187.95,"text":"那我是要我們沒有在查核這個你們沒有在查核這個因為中選會也沒有命當好這個我有打電話給中選會過他說他們都有跟今年就起碼今年有跟你們開過會回去查核我們是有開過會但是他沒有幫我們去查所以是給前西部前西部有收到這樣人事行政總署確定一下"},{"start":190.562,"end":210.996,"text":"選委會他有來公文有一些list提案人是不是公務人員我們會從系統跑資料給他所以我才問你人事行政總署到底有沒有公營事業機構的廣義的公務人員你們有沒有這個資料"},{"start":218.149,"end":243.188,"text":"供應事業的部分也有一併查了我們系統裡面我們去串聯有去查以後這個早一點同仁要早一點跟你講不然浪費時間我們看這個人事行政總署跟那個前期部就請回座 考險部這個有關上次我在這裡也質詢了"},{"start":246.759,"end":274.673,"text":"針對公務人員特考 原住民公務人員特考從110年不足而入企57111年不足而入企55名112年不足而入企77名113年不足而入企79名都是非常高的一個不足而入企非常可惜有這些缺額"},{"start":276.448,"end":297.831,"text":"卻沒有入企原住民很重要的就是像土木工程是最多的財稅行政、經建行政、農業行政這些的顏額都很多非常可惜上次你的報告裡面也特別提到"},{"start":301.104,"end":306.593,"text":"說這個兩院院級院級的協商怎麼樣去協助促成能夠解決這些問題這是"},{"start":309.741,"end":328.868,"text":"今年3月27號因為我之前有關心過所以你們有特別提到這個在報告裡面請問一下現在目前進度怎麼樣公務員報告5月5號有特別在行政工程委員會要召開一個跨院的會議那裡面有特別針對原住民特別是土木工程類科"},{"start":329.668,"end":357.588,"text":"那目前我們會希望說這個要結合教育端然後最好也能夠跟園民會一起看有沒有動用資源特別是針對因為我們大概知道在東部那邊的那一個比較有那因為那邊的目前缺乏高等教育大專校園缺乏對應科系或對應的學程專門針對原住民來強化培育我們希望能夠下一步朝這個方向來努力所以這個上次的會議是你們主動的嗎"},{"start":359.089,"end":386.499,"text":"那個是由跨 然後5月5號這個是由跨院兩個院一起召開那是由公共工程委員會是公共工程委員會召集對 那行政院是由公共工程委員會好 那個 這個部長齁因為行政 公共工程委員會我認為它主要是針對土木工程的啦所以事實上還有其他的類科所以這個部分 這個部分要請這個因為他們不會知道"},{"start":387.519,"end":411.881,"text":"所以要請這個考選部這邊能夠把這樣的資訊能夠讓他們知道譬如說這個農業部或者是這個用人的單位這個部分當然因為高目考都沒有問題啦可能啦我不知道但是基層的像原住民行政特考就有這方面這個切合都很可惜好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":909,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時3分）召委、各位委員。有請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 這邊要先請人事總長 謝謝請人事長好你叫總長 你長而已啊 人事長啦 不好意思不過我不總啦 是比較總而已 人比較總要說好 不然你衝到變大了 總長的外公沒有人事長好好 來 謝謝"},{"start":37.018,"end":55.396,"text":"我們來往下看第一張我想要跟你討論其實因為面對境外勢力的關係那我們不斷在談公務員相關的查核但是過往我們只要聽到查核兩個字好像其實就會有不好的印象我們來看一下這個歷史背景我之前看到你們說要請調查局擴大查核範圍"},{"start":59.559,"end":65.345,"text":"還要針對所謂涉及國家安全重大利益的各個部會的幕僚長以上的人員還有相關的機要聘僱人員還有他的財務狀況有親密互動狀況都要列入查核內容而且還要增加查核頻率我覺得這個態度是對的也是好的可是我們來往下看如果"},{"start":80.458,"end":103.039,"text":"因為當時你們說要在兩週內有相關的辦法我自己有點擔心兩週內其實是有困難的怎麼說如果我們要開始做這件事情我們都會希望它可以越來越好而且這個做下去的事情是真的有意義的那根據施老師也就是現在的權序部部長施老師的一篇文章我們可以看到假設我們要借鏡"},{"start":103.9,"end":118.952,"text":"美國的經驗我們來看一下有哪些美國的經驗現在在台灣實施可能會有相關的困難而那個困難可能來自於國人的見解或者是公務人員的理解或者是大家有沒有社會共識來第一個"},{"start":120.793,"end":139.265,"text":"時間有點太短了我來看一下這個是美國聯邦政府用人查核資訊網頁前一頁這個網頁裡面他談了非常多的事情他們做了一個很重要的示範用人查核不限於公務員他必須要有好的分級分等查核這件事情我認為我們國人可能都還沒有共識"},{"start":140.146,"end":163.269,"text":"接下來看到查核對象的設定在美國目前是用所擔任的職務工作內容來決定應受查核的強度不管他是不是公務人員可是在台灣我們是以僱傭關係來決定有沒有受到規範目前只有公務人員的身份其他身份幾乎都不用再來就是我剛剛一直跟您說的社會的態度"},{"start":165.01,"end":191.943,"text":"過往台灣對於這件事情認為是一種政治監管政治的控制這當然是來自於戒嚴時代大家對戒嚴時代所遺留下來的恐懼跟認知導致於我們相關的行政作為很寬鬆內容也相對簡單也就因為如此我剛剛才會跟您說我們看到你們新聞稿對外說兩個禮拜內會有相關進度其實我是擔心的也就是說如果我們希望做得更全面"},{"start":192.663,"end":206.55,"text":"其實兩個禮拜內可以是一個短時間的規劃但是長期來看如果為了面對這麼複雜的國安情勢我認為我們要做更多的努力跟功課我們來看一下用美國案例再往下看"},{"start":207.91,"end":230.24,"text":"任職前他們要做基本背景調查我們往下看發現這個基本背景非常的多包含曾經居住曾經工作曾經求學的地方還有他們的名稱還有任何軍職的經歷警方曾經留下來的記錄點點點點點點甚至第一次入職的人都還要留下指紋而這個表格SF85要寫到十幾頁"},{"start":233.081,"end":249.435,"text":"我認為這件事情真的在台灣還沒有共識但我們是支持的前提之下如何一讓社會有共識二讓公務人員還有不限於公務人員的人都必須要有這個認知什麼叫做不限於公務人員的人我們來看一下"},{"start":250.676,"end":266.465,"text":"現在在美國的分類我們可以看到它分成非機敏的位置或者是可以接觸到所謂公眾資料資訊的人的位置或者是接觸國安等級而把人做分級甚至是他們已經做到的事情講到這邊我想要問人長"},{"start":269.588,"end":296.698,"text":"我剛說這是來自於全序部施部長他的一個臉書發文所以我們再去做了很多的研究去看了美國的資料下一張我想要問我講了這麼多你可以聽得出來我是支持的但我認為我們要更多進一步的規劃跟討論讓這件事情不管是短期中期長期我們如何建立一套台灣適用全方位的政府雇用人員安全查核可不可以請您說說看"},{"start":297.968,"end":323.778,"text":"我跟委員報告剛好六七年前我有接觸過美國的這一套那查核的就是以國防相關的因為美國國防工業很多都是委託民間在做它相關的一個查核的一個procedure事實上一個人最少要三個月的一個特查的時間包含健康、情況、財務它的面向非常多我看過那個每一個人的查核大概一分鐘"},{"start":324.958,"end":344.499,"text":"SS85是十幾頁然後更多就是像你說的一本書這樣所以我們都認同嘛這個強度很重要但是我們如何在未來促成我們有沒有機會往這裡去規劃我覺得這一次一個很大的一個突破就是我們不用人眼生分而是他接觸機密的等級"},{"start":345.26,"end":369.148,"text":"因為有些是業用人員主任秘書以上的他裡面有可能有一些業聘顧的一些業用這些臨時事實上都會進來啦就以他涉密的程度啦我覺得這一步是一個非常重要同樣的我們也有把財務查核在經過當事人同意以後我們再去進行因為財務的這一塊以前沒有特別去highlight那有些是財務有問題的所以他"},{"start":374.73,"end":384.351,"text":"可能會變成對方的一個設定的一個標的啦所以我想這一次也做了很多的一個進步的地方"},{"start":386.205,"end":413.373,"text":"我剛說沒有錯 就這個部分我絕對是認同可是我認為更長期來看我們可以做得更完整所以這個部分也要拜託你們帶回去研議如同你剛說的 你自己都看過美國相關的資料厚厚的一本十幾頁甚至幾十頁他所希望建立的就是所有這些公務機關的相關人員他必須要對國家有所忠誠而且因為他領的是納稅人的薪水不管他在哪一個位置上只要他有相關的可能性我們就必須要做防範 好不好好 謝謝喔 來"},{"start":418.273,"end":421.3,"text":"謝謝主席 聲音還給我接下來我要先請保訓會 謝謝保訓會 謝謝"},{"start":433.148,"end":461.09,"text":"好我要跟你們討論關於公務人員現場職場霸凌的問題之前我已經提醒過了關於霸凌這個問題絕對不要台灣有兩個制度一個是公務員一個是勞工那目前在保訓會的資料裡面我們看到面對職場霸凌受害人如果要救濟只能內部申訴而沒有辦法向保訓會提出外部救濟來看下一張對不對我現在講的資料是對的對不對主委"},{"start":466.958,"end":483.676,"text":"對我們關於性平的部分我們可以做行政處分可是在職場霸凌的部分因為之前我們知道要修職安衛辦法還有公務人員權益保障法我們要談到所謂霸凌的定義然後相關的程序還有可不可以納入免職的要件這是我們未來要修法的方向"},{"start":484.036,"end":504.93,"text":"但是在修法之前因為修法可能還要一段時間半年到一年不等你們可能還在蒐集相關意見還有相關程序要跑可是在這之前職場霸凌在保訓會內部的相關人事行政行為一覽表裡面它是一個管理措施也就是它只能在自己的整個機關裡面不斷不斷最多就是到部長"},{"start":505.951,"end":517.105,"text":"然後就沒有了而沒有辦法做外部的行政處分我認為這個對於現在公務人員的士氣是一個打擊我想要請保勛會員回答一下你們怎麼看這一題我們可不可以有機會做更友善的設計"},{"start":519.383,"end":542.584,"text":"跟委員報告目前的現行法制呢 他像機關裡面進行了這個申訴之後如果他對於這個申訴是不服的 他可以向保訓會進行這個再申訴那他如果再不服的話呢 他可以走行政救濟那當然因為這個目前的人事行政的行政行為裡面呢過去在"},{"start":543.124,"end":569.775,"text":"有關於職場霸凌的部分呢他是要看他主要的這個救濟的標的是屬於人事行政的部分還是屬於管理措施所以呢他也一樣當他不服這個保訓會所做出來的這個審議決定他可以走行政救濟那如果行政救濟他再不服他也可以像一般的這個部分呢進行這個透過民事形式"},{"start":570.555,"end":592.203,"text":"的這個就是去找行政訴訟嘛對不對對可是我認為這個相對現在對公務人員其實是不友善的因為你們是透過四字七七八五的解釋做出這個決議對嗎是對就是人事行政行為的這個修訂在一百這個零九年的時候我們根據這個行政程序法裡面對於哪些是屬於可以列為這個"},{"start":593.983,"end":610.883,"text":"人事行政的行政行為哪些是列為管理的措施來進行了一個比較全盤的檢視但是的確像委員所提到的未來有關於職場霸凌它的成立與否"},{"start":611.883,"end":620.507,"text":"是不是也要納為所謂的這個副省的項目目前會裡頭也正在研議當中目前正在研議所以你們有規劃相關進度嗎研議的結果你們本來壓在什麼時間點會有相關結果或者是修正討論的可能性跟委員報告因為我們這個考試院呢這一個陳榮剛秘書長提到那"},{"start":631.832,"end":656.443,"text":"保訊會員目前最重要的事情就是已經把這個安慰辦法送行政院會嫌然後送立法院那接著回來的這當中會涉及到很多的相關的執法我們目前已經盤點出相關的執法要修哪些也包括委員所提到的這一個有關職場霸凌未來是不是這個申訴跟它的成立與否未來是不是也要變成是人事行政的"},{"start":657.903,"end":671.468,"text":"這個一覽表裡面的一項對目前這個也在我們的盤點規劃裡面好所以聽起來你剛回應我的是修法的部分啦但是我說其實這個內部人事行政行為一覽表其實你們就可以做一個比較快速的決定啦是"},{"start":672.528,"end":701.161,"text":"這間時間有限我們也許之後會後再討論好嗎但是我認為在修法之前我們就可以有比較積極的動作為什麼讓人事長留在你身邊是因為其實在人事總署裡面就有一個相關的案例他後來是被伎倆拉過免職相關的那個案例我就不再細講所以我認為其實已經構成相關要件可以往下討論不要只有等到修法我們給基層的公務員更多的鼓勵在這件事情上我認為這絕對是一個正面加分的行為好不好"},{"start":701.661,"end":725.892,"text":"好 謝謝那保訊這邊請回那人長 不好意思 再留一會主席給我一段時間 謝謝保訊還是要留著 對不起我要講那個友善育兒職場的事情我每次來這邊 只要你們有出現我就會問到友善育兒職場因為這個是非常重要的政策它不會只有在私人企業它在公務機關也非常的重要之前我們看到有一個個案"},{"start":726.812,"end":740.443,"text":"有一個外交部的同仁他在他派駐在俄羅斯然後他的過往的工作狀況也非常好一向都是被打假等可是在他懷孕那一年請生產假的時候呢卻接到他的主管電話他當時給他打了一個疑等甚至在相關電話的對話過程當中呢這個主管還跟他說相對起來就是因為你有請假嘛相對比起來真的工作量減少了嘛打烤雞這個比例喔"},{"start":755.114,"end":780.795,"text":"從來沒有行諸於文字的比例你也是知道的啦而且還有一定的比例要給一等我沒有要拿個案跟你們討論我要談的是過往在這個公務員職場當中的文化確實對於生育這件事情是比較不友善的但是這幾年整個行政團隊整個行政院機關包含總統都公開宣示我們要做一個友善育兒這件事情它需要逐步推進逐年改善"},{"start":781.215,"end":795.521,"text":"甚至所有第一線基層公務人員的主管們他們也要建立這個認知而這件事情我想要拜託任總跟保訓你們可不可以公開告訴我們公開的呼籲這件事情真的不要再發生"},{"start":797.844,"end":821.928,"text":"這個我們一定會再加強宣導就如同委員剛才提的啦這幾年我們一而再再而三再宣導你針對請異因的啦生產的啦或者賠產的產檢的這一些不得為不利的處分嘛我們一直在強調如果有這樣的案子的時候我們一定會去查清楚因為我覺得不能因為人家"},{"start":825.609,"end":851.961,"text":"清價、顧孩子還是省產,你又去人家打口氣而且還有一點,這些營養裡面我們都不列入我們家庭的比例裡面所以它的影響是很大的當然會有一種情況,當事人的表現而不是因為他請異因留庭的或者他的生產、或者賠產、或者產檢這一些我們會有一套很客觀的標準"},{"start":853.366,"end":861.737,"text":"謝謝袁市長你這麼正面公開的承諾跟回應我認為這件事情真的對公務員很重要保訓這邊呢可不可以說一下你們的態度跟立場"},{"start":862.691,"end":887.589,"text":"跟委員報告這個有關於這個支持我們這個公務人員他行使他應有的權利呢這絕對是保訓會呢最關切的事情那當他因為他行使他的權利而遭受到不利對待的時候呢他就可以來申請這個附審他可以打救濟好那這個我們呢有關於這個部分呢今天陳委員的提醒我們在未來的這個"},{"start":888.65,"end":914.78,"text":"今年的宣服岛案例里面也会特别去提醒人事人员有关于这方面的注意以上谢谢好谢谢你们这么正面的回应最后一个友善职场这个要给我们很重要的空间友善职场的职场托育空间之前我已经问过人事长保训请回谢谢我之前已经问过人事长你跟我说他其实是一个很重要的行政参考但是因为他不是硬的规定所以目前大家真的就只有拿来做参考"},{"start":915.76,"end":939.129,"text":"我幫您整理出來目前在近三到五年的公共興建工程裡面在人口稠密區連淡水這個地方114年啟動的招標作業裡面都沒有列入所謂有篩育的空間那甚至在新竹市北區我相信你相信新竹市北區絕對是人口稠密116年完工一樣近三到五年招標一樣也沒有整個十個案子裡面呢"},{"start":941.75,"end":964.695,"text":"只有四個他有列入他有把這個友善職場的職場托育空間列入空間規劃而且他有真的去規劃但是有六個是沒有的我要講這件事情其實真的很可惜我知道已經有相關的辦法但是各個單位甚至國發會或是工程會都只當成參考我們沒有列為一個重要的推動的政策任長可不可以講一下你的態度"},{"start":967.749,"end":995.53,"text":"謝謝委員給我這樣的一個資料我想會後我們會親自去查因為政部長也在這裡我剛才看到有幾個是華為部的我們一起來處理應該是說這件事情它跟工程會跟國發會有關我認為我們更積極的去宣導這件事情甚至列為一個重要的考核絕對是一個對基層公務人員非常友善的事情還有我剛剛說的關於內部真的生育育兒不友善我們相關的規劃報告有機會在一個月內給我們辦公室嗎"},{"start":998.267,"end":1005.984,"text":"好 OK 沒問題謝謝園長 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝陳培宇委員都要不小心把你按到你的聲音所以多還你一分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":856,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時46分）謝謝主席。這邊要先請人事總長，謝謝。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：好……"],["主席：你有「總長」嗎？你只有「長」而已，沒有「總長」。"],["陳委員培瑜：人事長啦！抱歉、抱歉。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我不是「總長」啦！是人比較腫而已，人比較腫而已。"],["主席：要講對，不然變得這麼大，「總長」太恐怖了。"],["陳委員培瑜：人事長，我們看第一張，我想要跟你討論，因為面對境外勢力的關係，我們不斷在談公務員相關的查核，但是過往我們只要聽到查核兩個字，好像其實就會有不好的印象。我們來看一下這個歷史背景，我之前看到你們說要請調查局擴大查核範圍，還要針對所謂涉及國家安全、重大利益的各個部會的幕僚長以上的人員，還有相關的機要、聘僱人員，還有他的財務狀況、親密互動狀況，都要列入查核內容，而且還要增加查核頻率。","我覺得這個態度是對的也是好的，可是我們來往下看，因為當時你們說要在兩週內有相關的辦法，我自己有點擔心，兩週內其實是有困難的，怎麼說？如果我們要開始做這件事情，我們都會希望它可以越來越好，而且這個做下去的事情是真的有意義的，根據施老師也就是現在的銓敘部施部長的一篇文章，可以看到，假設我們要借鏡美國的經驗，我們來看一下，有哪些美國的經驗現在在臺灣實施可能會有相關的困難，而那個困難可能來自於國人的見解，或者是公務人員的理解，或者是大家有沒有社會共識。","第一個，時間有點太短，我們來看一下，這個是美國聯邦政府用人查核資訊網頁，這個網頁裡面談了非常多的事情，他們做了一個很重要的示範，用人查核不限於公務員，它必須要有好的分級、分等查核，這件事情我認為我們國人可能都還沒有共識。接下來看到查核對象的設定，在美國目前是用所擔任的職務工作內容來決定應受查核的強度，不管他是不是公務人員，可是在臺灣我們是以僱用關係來決定有沒有受到規範，目前只有公務人員的身分，其他身分幾乎都不用。再來就是我剛剛一直跟您說的社會的態度，過往臺灣對於這件事情，認為是一種政治監管、政治的控制，這當然是來自於戒嚴時代，大家對戒嚴時代所遺留下來的恐懼跟認知，導致於我們相關的行政作為很寬鬆，內容也相對簡單，也就因為如此，我剛剛才會跟您說，我們看到你們的新聞稿對外說兩個禮拜內會有相關進度，其實我是擔心的。也就是說，如果我們希望做得更全面，其實兩個禮拜內可以是一個短時間的規劃，但是長期來看，為了面對這麼複雜的國安情勢，我認為我們要做更多的努力跟功課。","我們用美國的案例再往下看，任職前他們要做基本背景調查，我們往下看發現這個基本背景非常的多，包含曾經居住、曾經工作、曾經求學的地方，還有他們的名稱，還有任何軍職的經歷、警方曾經留下來的紀錄等等，甚至第一次入職的人都還要留下指紋，而這個SF85的表格要寫到十幾頁，我認為這件事情真的在臺灣還沒有共識但我們是支持的前提之下，如何一、讓社會有共識；二、讓公務人員還有不限於公務人員的人都必須要有這個認知。什麼叫做不限於公務人員的人？我們來看一下，現在在美國的分類，我們可以看到它分成非機敏的位置，或者是可以接觸到所謂公眾資料、資訊的人的位置，或者是接觸國安等級，而把人做分級，甚至是他們已經做到的事情。講到這邊，我想要問人長，我剛剛說這是來自於銓敘部施部長的臉書發文，所以我們再去做了很多的研究，去看了美國的資料，我想要問，我講了這麼多，你可以聽得出來我是支持的，但我認為我們要有更多進一步的規劃跟討論，讓這件事情不管是短期、中期、長期，我們如何建立一套臺灣適用全方位的政府僱用人員安全查核，可不可以請您說說看？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，剛好六、七年前我有接觸過美國的這一套，查核就是與國防相關的，因為美國國防工業很多都是委託民間在做，它相關的查核procedure，事實上一個人最少要三個月的特查時間，包含健康情況、財務，它的面向非常多，我看過每一個人的查核大概都是一本書。"],["陳委員培瑜：SF85是十幾頁，然後更多就是像你說的像一本書。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那是國防的。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我們都認同嘛！這個強度很重要，但是我們如何在未來促成？我們有沒有機會往這裡去規劃？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得這一次一個很大的突破就是我們不用人員身分，而是他接觸機密的等級，因為有些是約用人員，如果是主任秘書以上，裡面可能有一些約聘僱或約用人員，這些事實上都會進來。就是以他涉密的程度啦！我覺得這一步是非常重要的。同樣的，我們也有把財務查核列進去，這是在經過當事人同意以後再去進行，因為財務這一塊以前沒有特別去highlight，有些是財務有問題的，他可能會變成對方設定的標的。所以這次也有很多進步的地方。"],["陳委員培瑜：我剛剛說得沒有錯，就是這個部分我絕對是認同，可是我認為更長期來看，我們可以做得更完整，所以這個部分也要拜託你們帶回去研議。如同你剛剛說的，你自己都看過美國的相關資料，厚厚的一本十幾頁、甚至幾十頁，它所希望建立的就是所有公務機關的相關人員必須對國家忠誠，因為他領的是納稅人的薪水，不管他在哪個位置上，只要有相關的可能性，我們就必須做防範，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝。","接下來我要跟保訓會討論關於公務人員職場霸凌的問題，同時請人事長在旁邊稍候。之前我已經提醒過了，關於霸凌這個問題，臺灣絕對不要有兩個制度：一個是公務員，一個是勞工。我們在保訓會目前的資料裡面看到，面對職場霸凌，受害人如果要救濟，只能內部申訴，沒有辦法向保訓會提出外部救濟。主委，我現在講的資料是對的，對不對？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：螢幕上的嗎？"],["陳委員培瑜：對。關於性平的部分可以做行政處分，可是在職場霸凌的部分，因為之前我們知道要修職安衛辦法還有公務人員保障法，要談到霸凌的定義、相關的程序，以及可不可以納入免職的要件，這是未來要修法的方向。因為修法可能還要一段時間，半年到一年不等，你們可能還在收集相關意見、還有相關程序要跑，可是在這之前，職場霸凌在保訓會內部的「人事行政行為一覽表」裡面，它是一個管理措施，也就是他只能在自己的整個機關裡面不斷、不斷地申訴，最多就是到部長，然後就沒有了，沒有辦法做外部的行政處分。我認為這對現在的公務人員士氣是一個打擊。我想請主委回答一下，你們怎麼看這一題？可不可以有機會做更友善的設計？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，根據現行法制，他向機關裡面進行申訴之後，如果他對這個申訴不服，可以向保訓會進行再申訴，如果再不服的話，可以走行政救濟。當然，因為在目前人事行政的行政行為裡面，有關職場霸凌的部分要看主要的救濟標的是屬於人事行政的部分，還是屬於管理措施，所以也一樣，當他不服保訓會所做出來的審議決定，可以走行政救濟，如果行政救濟他再不服，也可以像一般的部分，透過民事、刑事的訴訟來……"],["陳委員培瑜：就是必須走行政訴訟，對不對？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是我認為相對而言，這對公務人員其實是不友善的，因為你們是透過釋字第785號解釋做出這個決議，對嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：對。就是有關人事行政行為的修訂，在109年的時候，我們根據行政程序法，對於哪些屬於可以列為人事行政的行政行為、哪些是列為管理措施，進行了比較全盤的檢視，但是的確像委員所提到的，未來有關職場霸凌的成立與否，是不是也要納為復審的項目，目前會裡頭也正在研議當中。"],["陳委員培瑜：目前正在研議？所以你們有規劃相關進度嗎？你們本來押在什麼時間點會有相關結果或者是修正討論的可能性？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：跟委員報告，因為考試院誠如剛剛秘書長提到的，保訓會目前最重要的事情就是已經把安衛辦法送行政院會銜，然後送立法院……"],["陳委員培瑜：對、對、對，修法我已經講了……"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：這當中會涉及很多相關的子法，我們目前已經盤點出相關的子法要修哪些，也包括委員所提到的有關職場霸凌的申訴及其成立與否，未來是不是也要變成「人事行政行為一覽表」當中的一項，目前這個也在我們的盤點規劃裡面；我們會儘快。"],["陳委員培瑜：聽起來你剛剛回應我的是修法的部分，但是你們內部這個「人事行政行為一覽表」其實就可以做一個比較快速的決定。"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是因為今天時間有限，我們也許會後再討論，好嗎？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是我認為在修法之前，我們就可以有比較積極的動作。","為什麼讓人事長留在你身邊，是因為其實在人事總處裡面就有一個相關的案例，他後來是被記2大過免職，相關案例我就不再細講，所以我認為其實已經構成相關要件，可以往下討論，不要只有等到修法。在這件事情上給基層公務員更多鼓勵，我認為絕對是一個正面、加分的行為。好，謝謝。","主席，再給我一點時間。謝謝。","現在我要講友善育兒職場的事情，我每次來這邊，只要你們有出現，我就會問到友善育兒職場，因為這是非常重要的政策，它不會只有在私人企業，對公務機關也非常重要。之前我們看到一個個案，有一個外交部的同仁被派駐俄羅斯，他過往的工作狀況非常好，考績一向都是被打甲等，可是在他懷孕那一年請生產假的時候，卻接到主管的電話，說把他打了一個乙等，甚至在相關電話的對話過程當中，這個主管還跟他說：就是因為你有請假嘛，相對比起來真的工作量減少了，打考績這個從來沒有形諸文字的比例你也是知道的啦，而且還有一定的比例要給乙等。","我沒有要拿個案跟你們討論，我要談的是，過往在公務員職場當中的文化確實對於生育這件事情是比較不友善的，但是這幾年整個行政團隊、整個行政院機關包含總統都公開宣示，我們要做一個友善育兒這件事情需要逐步推進、逐年改善，甚至所有第一線基層公務人員的主管們，他們也要建立這個認知。而這件事情我想要拜託人總跟保訓會，你們可不可以公開告訴我們、公開地呼籲，這件事情真的不要再發生了？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個我們一定會再加強宣導，就如同委員剛才提的，這幾年我們一而再，再而三地在宣導，針對請假育嬰的、生產的或者是陪產的、產檢的這些，不得為不利的處分。我們一直在強調，如果有這樣的案子，我們一定會去查清楚，我覺得不能因為人家請假照顧小孩或生產就打差的考績，而且還有一點，這些員額都不列入甲等比例裡面，所以它的影響很小。當然會有一種情況，就是當事人overall的表現，而不是因為他請育嬰留停或者生產、陪產、產檢這一些，我們會有一套很客觀的標準。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝人事長這麼正面公開的承諾跟回應，我認為這件事情真的對公務員很重要。保訓會可不可以說一下你們的態度跟立場？"],["蔡主任委員秀涓：有關支持公務人員行使應有的權利，絕對是保訓會最關切的事情。當他因為行使他的權利而遭受到不利對待的時候，他就可以來申請復審、可以打救濟。有關今天陳委員提醒的這個部分，我們在今年的宣（輔）導案例裡面也會特別提醒人事人員注意這方面。以上，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝你們這麼正面的回應。最後是友善職場，這個要給很重要的空間，即友善職場的職場托育空間。保訓會，請回，謝謝。我之前已經問過人事長，你跟我說它其實是一個很重要的行政參考，因為它不是硬性規定，所以目前大家真的就只有拿來參考。我幫您整理出來近三到五年在人口稠密區的公共興建工程，連淡水這個地方114年啟動的招標作業裡面都沒有列入所謂的友善育兒空間，甚至在新竹市北區也是。你我都相信新竹市北區絕對是人口稠密，116年要完工的、一樣是近三到五年招標也沒有，整整十個案子裡面只有四個有把友善職場的職場托育空間列入空間規劃，而且真的有去規劃，但有六個是沒有的。我要講這件事情真的很可惜，我知道已經有相關的辦法，但是各個單位、甚至國發會或是工程會都只當成參考，沒有列為重要推動的政策。人事長可不可以講一下你的態度？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員給我這樣的資料，會後我們會親自去查，因為鄭部長也在這裡，我剛才看到有幾個是法務部的，我們一起來處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：應該說這件事情跟工程會、國發會有關，我認為要更積極地宣導這件事情，甚至列為重要的考核，絕對是一個對基層公務人員非常友善的事情。還有我剛剛說的，關於內部針對生育、育兒不友善，相關的規劃報告有機會在一個月內給我辦公室嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：OK，沒問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝人事長，謝謝主席。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。關於友善職場，生育當然不能是一個扣分的理由，這是國安危機，不加分都已經說不過去了。","接下來請鄭天財委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-16","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","吳宗憲","沈發惠","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於監察院主管預算凍結項目共 1案；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管預算凍結項目共7案；三、審查及處理114年度中央\n政府總預算關於考試院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案；四、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於法\n務部及所屬主管預算凍結項目共23案","agenda_id":"1144802_00002"}}},{"id":"161186","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161186","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d525bb939601d490c1363ba08a40ece61fce877ab6b0e850c6af0e74eb070a3a03c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:35:13 - 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謝謝主席我請我們的人事總務人事長委員長好 人事長早在上個星期五那麼立法院通過了4加1的方案那麼就是增加了國定假日那我想請問一下到目前為止"},{"start":34.384,"end":44.031,"text":"到目前為止人事長有沒有接獲行政院的任何的指示或者我們人事總處有提出應該對立法院上個星期五的這個法案的決議要提出附議"},{"start":52.659,"end":79.33,"text":"跟委員報告這兩個部分第一個部分行政院沒有做任何指示那第二個部分是我們人總已經針對跟今年有關的三個節日一個是928、1025還有1225那這三個節日剛好一個是禮拜六、一個禮拜天、一個禮拜四那我們也內部在檢討今年的廉價的方法那個總統三讀公告以後我們要怎麼進行"},{"start":80.73,"end":108.079,"text":"這是第一個部分第二個部分同樣按照往例的話明年的行事例我們會在6月30號以前簽行政院對外公告所以我們現在是分兩個部分一個是針對今年下半年一個是針對明年上半年對 然後這是我們現在已經在做一些幕僚作業好 所以到目前為止在行政院至少您所聽到的沒有要復議的任何的規劃跟想法"},{"start":108.96,"end":116.192,"text":"我都沒有聽過這個如果行政院來問您的意見您知不支持就是贊成要提出復印呢"},{"start":117.755,"end":142.053,"text":"我接著行政院會去中整考量他不會問我這個啦好 所以那對上個星期五我們所通過的法案您個人是支持的嗎 人事總處是支持的嗎我想公務員有依法按照法律的規範去執行相關公務的一個責任而且這個法的主管機關事實上是在內政部啦"},{"start":143.254,"end":147.277,"text":"我們原本是背著我們這樣的一個法來去做相關的規劃可是人事總署到時候要排駕對待會我會提到就是說其實在整個修法過程裡面那主管機關是內政部但是勞動部其實人事總署的意見也非常重要那當時勞動部跟人事這個內政部之間是怎麼樣踢皮球"},{"start":161.969,"end":172.813,"text":"那因為大家還是關心假的問題如果以我們下半年來看的話下半年來看就是可能是十月份十月份因為碰到中秋節跟雙十節所以呢在一個星期會出現兩個連假對不對"},{"start":179.85,"end":206.267,"text":"包括大概九月底一直到十月份這裡面會有三次的連假所以再加上十月二十五號光復節的部分放假的話那是不是十月份會出現比較多的連假是不是會集中在九月底跟十月份還是說你會把它有可能把它分散到十一月因為現在十一月沒有任何的連假"},{"start":210.499,"end":227.011,"text":"詳細的情況我們還是會找教育部啦還有經濟部啦相關部會來因為你只要一調整的話像國際金融市場你如果一調整的話跟國際沒有辦法接軌對整個金融的運作事實上都會有一些影響跟衝擊"},{"start":227.892,"end":230.514,"text":"好了解所以因為我在現在看我們的形勢力應該是在你說在九月底到這個十月初這段時間的廉價比較多所以我覺得這個部分可能就是怎麼樣"},{"start":243.526,"end":253.13,"text":"這個連假放起來包含就是各行各業還有勞工能夠能夠充分的利用好不好因為10月25號其實因為928是因為就是本來是只有老師放假928它就會面臨到所以怎麼樣把它調整讓大家能夠很珍惜這真的很得來不易的這麼多年將近10年這樣的大家爭取來的一個假期"},{"start":269.517,"end":272.878,"text":"那另外我要特別講到就是說我剛才為什麼去問要不要復印因為柯總召接受媒體的訪問的時候他竟然說如果因為我們知道馬上就有一個大罷免他說不用提復印反正等到國民黨這些立委被罷免之後那麼明年可以把這些價再改回來"},{"start":291.644,"end":309.196,"text":"所以很多的勞工朋友擔心啊擔心是不是到時候整個大罷免的這個之後然後呢如果在野黨立委如果因為這個罷免之後席次變少然後又由民進黨團取得多數席次然後再把價收回去"},{"start":311.618,"end":330.384,"text":"又把原來我們的4加1的價收回去我想任市長你覺得這樣子合理嗎因為如果最後行政院是沒有提出復議的話然後把價收回去合理嗎我覺得這個應該直接問柯總召比較清楚因為他也沒有跟我講"},{"start":331.064,"end":333.528,"text":"他也沒有跟你講你同意他這種謬論嗎你同意他這種意見嗎每一個委員的聲音我們都非常尊重我不能用正面跟負面的方式來評價這樣非常不禮貌"},{"start":344.973,"end":361.54,"text":"我覺得柯總召這種方式事實上真的沒有尊重我們廣大的勞工那另外就是這一次的4加1的方案老師說我覺得行政院目前的表現是比較正常的其實我基本上肯定我們人事總署立刻針對可能馬上面臨的928教師節跟10月25號的光復節這些假期趕快再做規劃但是我要特別提到了"},{"start":373.044,"end":394.384,"text":"就是說在這個我們整個的法案的過程裡面我剛才在講其實呢在因為這個法案不是現在突然憑空冒出來的其實呢在從上上會期就已經開始有委員相繼提出來不同的法案那而且呢可能各個委員提出來說實在的可以說是"},{"start":394.704,"end":408.151,"text":"其實是五花八門 因為每一位委員他在乎的這個放假日是不一樣的 比如原住民委員他比較在意的是原住民紀念日那別說陳一貞委員他在意823他認為對金門是比較有意義的 譬如說像麥一貞委員因為他是新移民他對於這個移民日 國際移民日他認為應該放假我們尊重"},{"start":419.997,"end":424.26,"text":"每一位委員他的一個價值觀那但是呢我們都做出了整合也非常感謝各位委員他們在提案的過程中我講的這幾個委員他們都有提案所以都可以進行討論但是呢我們可以看到在整個的法案通過之後民進黨立委竟然說他們提的假日都被拒絕了都被國民黨在野黨封殺了"},{"start":449.995,"end":460.163,"text":"這個我們就不理解了第一個 有沒有提案 沒有提案第二個 有提案自己又撤案第三個 在過程裡面 你有沒有提到臨時動議或者修正動議 通通都沒有提到也就是事實上在整個的這個法案的過程裡面民進黨團沒有任何的提案"},{"start":473.453,"end":477.254,"text":"也沒有修正動議事實上甚至有四個法案原來有提案自己又撤回了自己撤回所以我必須要講在這個過程裡面那麼行政院我覺得到目前為止是有尊重立法院最後的我們的一個法案的審查權"},{"start":494.62,"end":501.445,"text":"但是在民進黨黨團裡面提到說民進黨團提到的假日民進黨委員是完全被拒絕錯這完全是造謠因為你沒有提案請問如何被拒絕我剛才舉的這幾個例子這些委員他們自己都有提案但是我們感謝他們在這個提案的過程裡面那麼大家意見可以被整合大家意見可以被討論"},{"start":524.56,"end":535.669,"text":"我覺得這才是一個修法過程裡面應該有的態度所以在最後的一點點時間所以我想請教一下那個任市長所以我們現在這個整個的以現在來講到目前為止行政院針對4加1的這些國定假日放假日那麼現在目前是會執行嘛對不對"},{"start":550.751,"end":577.737,"text":"我跟委員報告一下 事實上我們這兩天的幕僚週月已經排好未來的十年的假大概原來是每一年的休假會115 116那現在排出未來十年從明年開始大概會120到121大概每一年會落在120點跟121點我們有先試排出來所以就是根據我們星期五所通過的法案來做來做排"},{"start":578.817,"end":582.099,"text":"好 謝謝 我覺得這樣子人事總署現在的這個態度基本上我們我想所有的勞工朋友是非常感謝也不只勞工朋友 包含公務人員嘛我記得那時候我還問過那個人事長說針對勞動節的部分是不是應該全國性放假 對不對"},{"start":599.688,"end":604.673,"text":"或者是教師節的部分是不是應該全國性放假因為我剛剛在講就是說因為這兩個節日常常一個家庭裡面同時還有勞工他同時有那個教師那這樣的話這個價都會不一樣讓大家不要有困擾所以我覺得基本上我支持跟肯定現在人事總署的一個態度"},{"start":622.791,"end":627.978,"text":"當然我也希望人事長如果行政院有任何這種復議的提議的話您可以本於你的專業然後提出不用復議了因為事實上人事總署已經在做一些相當好的一個安排好不好謝謝委員好謝謝好謝謝王洪威委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":817,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時35分）謝謝主席，請人事總處。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：人事長早。上個星期五立法院通過了4+1的方案，增加了國定假日，我想請問一下，到目前為止，人事長有沒有接獲行政院任何的指示，或者人事總處有提出應該對立法院上個星期五這個法案的決議要提出覆議？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，這分為兩個部分：第一個部分行政院沒有做任何指示，第二個部分是人總已經針對跟今年有關的三個節日，分別是9月28日、10月25日，還有12月25日，這三個節日剛好一個是禮拜六、一個禮拜天、一個禮拜四，我們內部在檢討今年的……在等……"],["王委員鴻薇：連假的放……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：等總統公告以後，我們要怎麼進行，這是第一個部分。第二個部分，同樣按照往例的話，明年的行事曆我們會在6月30號以前簽行政院對外公告，所以我們現在是分兩個部分，一個是針對今年下半年，一個是針對明年上半年……"],["王委員鴻薇：一個是針對明年上半年，尤其是連假的部分。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，我們現在已經在做一些幕僚作業。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以到目前為止，在行政院，至少您所聽到的，沒有要覆議的任何規劃跟想法？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個我都沒有聽過。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，如果行政院來問您的意見，您支不支持、贊不贊成提出覆議呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得這是行政院會綜整考量，他不會問我這個啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：好，對上個星期五我們所通過的法案，您個人是支持的嗎？人事總處是支持的嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我想公務員有依法、按照法律的規範去執行相關公務的責任，而且這個法的主管機關事實上是在內政部。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有錯。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那我們是依循這樣的法來做相關的規劃。"],["王委員鴻薇：可是人事總處到時候要排假。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：待會我會提到其實在整個修法過程裡面，主管機關是內政部，其實人事總處意見也非常重要，當時勞動部跟內政部之間是怎麼樣踢皮球。因為大家還是關心假的問題，如果以我們下半年來看的話，10月份因為碰到中秋節跟雙十節，所以在一個星期會出現兩個連假，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，大概9月底一直到10月份，這裡面會有三次的連假。"],["王委員鴻薇：有三次連假。所以再加上10月25號光復節放假的話，是不是10月份會出現比較多的連假？是不是會集中在9月底跟10月份？還是你有可能會把它分散到11月？因為看起來11月沒有任何的連假。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：詳細的情況我們還是會找教育部、經濟部、金管會等相關部會來討論，因為只要一調整的話，像國際金融市場，如果一調整跟國際沒有辦法接軌的話，對整個金融的運作事實上都會有一些影響跟衝擊。"],["王委員鴻薇：了解，因為我現在看我們的行事曆，您說在9月底到10月初，這段時間的連假比較多，所以我覺得這個部分連假怎麼放，包含各行各業，還有勞工能夠充分地利用，好不好？因為9月28日本來只有老師放假，9月28日就會面臨到怎麼調整，讓大家能夠很珍惜，這真的很得來不易，這麼多年、將近十年大家爭取來的假期。","另外，我要特別講到，我剛才為什麼問要不要覆議？因為我們知道馬上就有一個大罷免，柯總召接受媒體訪問的時候，他竟然說不用提覆議，反正等到國民黨這些立委被罷免之後，明年可以把這些假再改回來，所以很多勞工朋友擔心是不是整個大罷免之後，如果在野黨立委因為罷免席次變少，又由民進黨團取得多數席次，再把原來我們4+1的假收回去，人事長，你覺得這樣合理嗎？如果最後行政院是沒有提出覆議的話，把假收回去合理嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得這個應該直接問柯總召比較清楚，因為他也沒有跟我講。"],["王委員鴻薇：他也沒有跟你講，你同意他這種謬論嗎？你同意他這種意見嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：每一個委員的聲音，我們都非常尊重，我不能用正面跟負面的方式來評價，這樣非常不禮貌。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得柯總召這種方式，事實上真的沒有尊重我們廣大的勞工。另外，這一次4+1的方案，我覺得行政院目前的表現是比較正常的，我基本上肯定我們人事總處立刻針對可能馬上面臨的9月28日教師節，跟10月25號光復節這些假期趕快做規劃。但是我要特別提到，在整個法案的過程裡，我剛才在講，因為這個法案不是現在突然憑空冒出來的，從上上會期就已經開始有委員相繼提出不同的法案，而且各個委員提出來的可以說是五花八門，因為每一位委員在乎的放假日是不一樣的，比如原住民委員比較在意的是原住民紀念日；比如陳玉珍委員在意823，他認為對金門是比較有意義的；譬如麥玉珍委員，因為他是新移民，對於國際移民日，他認為應該放假。我們尊重每一位委員的價值觀，但是我們都做出了整合，也非常感謝各位委員他們在提案的過程中，我講的這幾個委員他們都有提案，所以都可以進行討論，但是我們可以看到在整個法案通過之後，民進黨立委竟然說他們提的假日都被拒絕了，都被在野的國民黨封殺了，這個我們就不理解了，第一個，有沒有提案？沒有提案。第二個，有提案自己又撤案。第三個，在過程裡面有沒有提到臨時動議或者修正動議？也通通都沒有提到，也就是事實上在整個法案的過程裡面，民進黨團沒有任何的提案，也沒有修正動議。甚至有4個法案，原來有提案，自己又撤回了，自己撤回。","所以我必須要講，在這個過程裡面，我覺得行政院到目前為止是有尊重立法院最後的法案審查權，但是在民進黨黨團提到民進黨團、民進黨委員提到的假日是完全被拒絕，錯！這完全是造謠，因為你沒有提案，請問如何被拒絕？我剛才舉的這幾個例子，這些委員他們自己都有提案，但是我們感謝他們在這個提案的過程裡面，大家的意見可以被整合，大家的意見可以被討論，我覺得這才是一個修法過程裡面應該有的態度。","在最後的一點點時間，我想請教一下人事長，以現在來講，到目前為止行政院針對4+1的這些國定假日、放假日，目前是會執行對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告一下，事實上我們這兩天的幕僚作業已經排好未來10年的假，大概原來每一年的休假是115天、116天，那現在排出未來10年，從明年開始大概會是120天到121天，大概每一年會落在120天跟121天，我們有先試排出來了。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以就是根據我們星期五所通過的法案來做？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝。我覺得人事總處現在的這個態度，基本上所有的勞工朋友是非常感謝的，不只是勞工朋友，也包含公務人員，我記得那時候我還問過人事長，針對勞動節的部分是不是應該全國性放假，對不對？或者是教師節的部分，是不是應該全國性放假？因為我剛剛在講，這兩個節日，常常一個家庭裡面同時有勞工、同時有教師，這樣的話假都不一樣，應該讓大家不要有困擾，所以基本上我支持跟肯定現在人事總處的態度，當然我也希望人事長，如果行政院有任何這種覆議提議的話，你可以本於你的專業，然後提出不用覆議了，因為事實上人事總處已經在做一些相當好的安排，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。","接下來我先作會議程序的宣告：稍後在鄭天財委員詢答完畢以後，我們休息5分鐘。","接下來請陳培瑜委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-16","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","吳宗憲","沈發惠","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra 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one百分之九十八喔我非常好奇啊今天雖然兩岸大概一千零三十六萬解凍但無助於你們百分之九十八山洞被你們這段時間"},{"start":201.688,"end":220.627,"text":"能夠做什麼呢我跟吳委員報告一下今天的解凍案我們其實只有兩案一個是我們財申處印這個廉政專刊的錢468萬公積人員財產申報對公積人員財產申報另外是這個所謂的營建工程就是普及的維護嘛普及維護我們改管線"},{"start":221.447,"end":245.597,"text":"該管線我們去年省了15萬度所以我們還是希望它會通過那其他被刪除的部分其實是我們非常困擾所以現在包括我們所有的會議我們今年還有一個這個世界性的年會我們現在還在追這個預算到底要從何而來因為這是18個會員國參加那我們也希望趕快把這些預算能夠把它追回APOR年會"},{"start":246.417,"end":261.256,"text":"Apple年會那個是750萬所以我們整個業務如果吳委員看到我手上這張表會很清楚我們議事業務被刪了百分之百調查巡查被刪了百分之百一般行政刪了百分之百"},{"start":261.956,"end":283.467,"text":"那我們的國家人權剩下97%那我們唯一留下的是財產申報但是財產申報所需要用的系統因為放在一般行政裡面也被全數刪除所以我們實在非常辛苦我們現在所有的調查還有我們的公務車都是靠我們委員自己支撐的那你現在每天隨身攜帶衛生紙嗎我衛生紙都擺在辦公室裡"},{"start":288.564,"end":316.942,"text":"非常的辛苦喔希望能夠順利解凍不過監察院只解凍了1036萬我們堅持的是我們要做到憲法賦予我們的責任還有陽光司法交代我們的任務其他你們98%的刪減我看根本就沒頂沒當我們很遺憾但是我們還是盡力爭取好這就是立法院成了太上院來癱瘓其他的憲法機關監察院我們認為每個憲政機關都有它的功能"},{"start":318.183,"end":332.414,"text":"在上會期用這個職權行使法來讓我們調查權不能動那我們只好訴訟,那訴訟我們也贏了第二會期用預算讓我們監察院不能動那我們希望也是透過憲法訴訟的部分來爭取我們的權益"},{"start":334.355,"end":353.012,"text":"好那監察院是開第一槍針對總預算來提出釋憲這一週民進黨團也會跟進好那請林秘書長請回接下來是考試院喔下一頁考試院我先聚焦喔你們被凍結的很大一筆喔主要在野黨的委員是說要"},{"start":354.113,"end":369.523,"text":"反霸凌可是卻來動相關可以做霸凌的預算第二個呢是我們軍公教的退府基金的改進方案但非常遺憾警察人員人事條例被二修通過了年改走回頭路下一頁再下一頁"},{"start":371.345,"end":399.383,"text":"我想問一下 你們已經送出了公務人員保障法 烤雞法 還有安慰辦法嗎如果沒有被凍結預算 你們就會Pending 就會擺爛嗎還是原本你們就會負責任的把它送出來我記得還沒審預算之前 我就一直在關心你們一開始就保證再保證 這是重要的事情反霸凌制度下手相關的手法 你們就會做 這一黨委員為什麼要"},{"start":400.504,"end":428.651,"text":"用反霸凌的名義來動你們的預算呢來 米雙我們周鴻燕院長在立法院人事同意權的時候被質詢到相關的議題就已經承諾了嘛對 那時候大家就很關切這個霸凌法制化的問題那我們在立法院來備詢的時候也都有做相關的承諾所以當時我們抓的進度就是大概半年在這個會期五月上旬送過來所以我們在五月一號院會通過之後"},{"start":429.211,"end":457.476,"text":"5月6號送進來換言之在野黨委員去動這筆預算毫無道理因為原本你們的time table就是要做嘛立法委員的監督可以用各種方法包括本席我也這張PPT是我早就在業務報告的時候質詢你們的我也早就追蹤到你們會在這個會期送出我們希望下個會期完成修法甚至如果這個會期有研會的話也許更快也不一定嘛好 下一頁"},{"start":458.496,"end":478.971,"text":"那現在我問一下市部長這跟人事總署一起的私謠一直在催生的心理假這也是落實賴總統的這個心理健康的相關政策我們研議了請假辦法什麼時候可以上路這個比加發加增4加1天假我認為更重要"},{"start":480.286,"end":505.347,"text":"我想總署那邊完成那個研議完以後就送到我們這邊那我們現在正在進行預告預告完以後呢我們就會送到考試院去做最後的一個確認考試院確認以後再跟行政院做會嫌我想應該不會太慢啦所以現在布送到院考試院要快一點喔然後考試院再送到行政院來會嫌我想那個蘇人事長我們都同意吧兩位"},{"start":507.128,"end":520.103,"text":"都是主事者 明年上路公務體系的薪禮價是不是可以期待 是不是 YES一定是的 肯定是的好 很好 謝謝你們的答案我不需要凍結預算 我也可以催生公務人員的薪禮價因為我可以透過我"},{"start":525.183,"end":539.479,"text":"鍥而不捨的監督各項會議達到這個政策的目的下一頁還有一件事情我要提醒一下退府基金我多次來說退府基金我們需要下一頁做到"},{"start":542.323,"end":563.31,"text":"退府基金呢對於投資碳足跡居然是所有的高包括勞保新制的勞退就制的勞退郵政儲金我們都是投資金額裡頭投資碳足跡最高的所以用國家的退府基金來投資高碳產業我們一定要檢討下一頁"},{"start":565.271,"end":585.971,"text":"所以氣候相關財務揭露TCFD國內各金控已經上路了綠色金融3.0也納入了退府基金要跟上我質詢過今天有一筆解凍案就是跟退府基金的管理相關可不可以正面的告訴我你們這方面已經在努力跟上了是 部長"},{"start":586.671,"end":612.945,"text":"剛剛委員報我們已經在努力而且我們已經正式出版一個報告那我們也要召開一個會議那未來我們的投資策略組合裡面就會把這議題也一併會納進去也謝謝委員一直在關心這個比今天在野黨委員凍結你們退府基金要你們針對投資的決策會議紀錄公開還重要的多還重要的多我希望你們能夠趕快跟上好我最後一個題目再佔用我一分鐘來人事長來我到國會"},{"start":617.236,"end":638.917,"text":"下一頁 下一頁 下一頁人事總長 人事長最近大家都在關心國安漏洞所以針對公務體系的一般忠誠查核或是特查一般查核是你們進行 特查是調查局那最近我們都針對國會國會成為國安漏洞的死角"},{"start":640.378,"end":666.443,"text":"那天我們在質詢了調查局他們希望能夠針對現在1328個特查的職位要擴充到2336個但是還是沒有納入立法院的職員工那您的看法呢我想這個部分還是要尊重立法院內部的一個規範那您也支持如果立法院訂定自己的特查辦法那後續你們跟調查局分工上大家來協力進行"},{"start":667.56,"end":689.736,"text":"如果是立法院通過的話我想特查這部分就是調查局他一定會按照整個規定去執行那需要的人力缺口我們會給現在您是督導管理所有公務體系人員的這個大家長您認為立法院的職員工現在被排除在特查之外"},{"start":690.797,"end":705.776,"text":"立法院的職員工接觸機密的機會非常高您認不認為來督促立法院訂定特查辦法基本上我們還是要尊重立法院的你知不支持嘛否則國安漏洞就在立法院嘛"},{"start":706.619,"end":728.509,"text":"因為委員也講得很清楚因為在立法院接觸到精品資料的場合還有那個人員也非常的多啦我希望任市長您要更積極正面一點不能因為特查辦法是調查局在進行你就好像沒藥沒金我要說的是所有公務體系同仁都是用於公務人員任用法"},{"start":729.269,"end":757.251,"text":"公務人員服務法它適用的法規是一致的沒有道理只有立法院的職員工語文機密這麼高他們卻長期被排除所以我具體要求調查局已經從1328個特查職位要擴充到2336個但是還是排除了立法院的職員工我要求要納入而我也支持立法院要自行來克責自我的自律來訂定特查辦法"},{"start":757.711,"end":761.6,"text":"我會支持 我會努力 希望人事總署也更正向"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":753,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時22分）今天阿川主持，是不是多寬限一點時間？因為有39案。"],["主席：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：有請李俊俋秘書長、請劉建忻秘書長，還有人事長跟施部長都一起好了，等一下就不用……不好意思。"],["主席：好，請4位一起。"],["吳委員思瑤：大家早安。推動政策不應有空窗期，雖然是凍結，但凍結其實就是造成我們窒礙難行，到現在，今天已經是5月12號了，我們對於很多業務，事實上已經有五個月半的時間沒有辦法如常運作。我特別也要說，在野黨委員說：送來、送來，解凍案送來就解凍了。事實上現在各個委員會在排審的加總起來只不過是11%的凍結數，因為多數、高達89%的凍結數必須送院會或者是設下更複雜的解凍門檻。所以即便我們今天在這裡快速地排案，這不過只是一小小部分的解凍案，但我們還是希望能夠順利通過。","監察院李秘書長先來，你們針對總預算被惡凍、惡刪提出了釋憲，事實上不只是惡刪構成你們窒礙難行，我這段時間去研究了包括蔡茂寅教授、黃世鑫教授、徐仁輝教授，他們都提出了憲政的新觀點。他們主張，凍結預算也是逾越憲法賦予立法院之預算審議權；「以凍代刪」是立法權侵犯行政權，立法院就成了太上院；甚至徐仁輝教授說，凍結預算就是毀損預算契約，這些都違反了大法官264、391、520號解釋。您可不可以再具體針對監察院提出的釋憲案，我想除了刪減預算，應當也還有凍結預算的部分，您簡單說明一下？"],["李秘書長俊俋：跟委員報告，監察院有關憲法訴訟案，我們已經在3月24號正式提出。我們認為這一次立法院刪減預算違反大法官解釋的釋字391、585、613、632，特別是632號所謂憲政機關的忠誠義務，就是不能因為你的作為或不作為造成其他憲政機關無法運作。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們認為立法院所做的這個預算審查確實有這樣的效果，所以監察院別無選擇，我們只能提出憲法訴訟。"],["吳委員思瑤：你們確實是受災程度No.1，98%！我非常好奇，今天雖然兩案大概1,036萬解凍，但是無助於你們98%被刪凍的部分。這段時間你們監察院能夠做什麼？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，我跟吳委員報告一下，今天的解凍案我們其實只有兩案，一個是財申處印廉政專刊的錢468萬。"],["吳委員思瑤：對，就是公務人員財產申報。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，公務人員財產申報。另外是所謂的營建工程，就是我們……"],["吳委員思瑤：古蹟的維護。"],["李秘書長俊俋：古蹟維護，我們改管線。改管線，我們去年省了15萬度，所以我們還是希望它會通過。","其他被刪除的部分其實是我們非常困擾的，所以現在包括我們所有的會議，今年還有一個世界性的年會，我們現在還在追這個預算到底要從何而來，因為這是18個會員國參加，那我們也希望這些預算能夠趕快把它追回來。"],["吳委員思瑤：APOR年會。"],["李秘書長俊俋：APOR年會，對，那個是750萬。所以我們整個業務，如果吳委員看到我手上這張表會很清楚，我們議事業務被刪了100%、調查、巡察被刪了100%、一般行政刪了100%。"],["吳委員思瑤：大家就都沒事做了。"],["李秘書長俊俋：國家人權部分刪了97%，我們唯一留下來的是財產申報，但是財產申報所需要用的系統，因為放在一般行政裡面，也被全數刪除。所以我們實在非常辛苦，現在所有的調查還有公務車都是靠我們委員自己支撐。"],["吳委員思瑤：那你現在每天隨身攜帶衛生紙嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我衛生紙都擺在辦公室裡。"],["吳委員思瑤：非常地辛苦，希望能夠順利解凍，不過監察院只解凍了1,036萬，其他……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們堅持的是，要做到憲法賦予我們的責任，還有陽光四法交代我們的任務，我們必須要做到。"],["吳委員思瑤：其他的，你們98%的刪減，我看根本就「袂振袂動」，God bless you！只能這樣說。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們很遺憾，但我們還是盡力爭取。"],["吳委員思瑤：這就是立法院成了太上院來癱瘓其他的憲法機關──監察院。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們認為每個憲政機關都有它的功能，在上會期用職權行使法讓我們調查權不能動，我們只好訴訟，訴訟我們也贏了。第二會期用預算讓監察院不能動，那我們希望也是透過憲法訴訟的部分來爭取我們的權益。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，監察院是開第一槍，針對總預算提出釋憲，這一週民進黨團也會跟進。李秘書長請回。"],["李秘書長俊俋：謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：接下來是考試院，我先聚焦，你們被凍結的很大一筆，主要在野黨委員是說要反霸凌，可是卻凍相關可以做的霸凌部分的預算。第二個是軍公教退撫基金改進方案，但非常遺憾，警察人員人事條例被惡修通過了，年改走回頭路。","我想問一下，你們已經送出了公務人員保障法、考績法還有安衛辦法嘛？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：如果沒有被凍結預算，你們就會pending、擺爛嗎？還是原本你們就會負責任地把它送出來？我記得還沒審預算之前，我就一直在關心，你們一開始就保證再保證，這是重要的事情，反霸凌制度相關修法你們就會做。在野黨委員為什麼要用反霸凌的名義來凍你們的預算？秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：我們周宏憲院長在立法院人事同意權的時候，被質詢到相關的議題，包含安衛辦法……"],["吳委員思瑤：就已經承諾了嘛！"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，那時候大家就很關切霸凌法制化的問題，我們來立法院備詢的時候也都有做相關的承諾，當時我們抓的進度就是大概半年，在這個會期5月上旬送過來。所以我們在5月1號院會通過之後，上禮拜二……"],["吳委員思瑤：5月6號送進來。"],["劉秘書長建忻：5月6日已經送到立法院。"],["吳委員思瑤：換言之，在野黨委員去凍這筆預算毫無道理，因為原本你們的timetable就是要做嘛！立法委員的監督可以用各種方法，包括本席，這張PPT是我早就在業務報告的時候質詢你們的，我也早就追蹤到你們會在這個會期送出，我們希望下個會期完成修法，甚至如果這個會期有延會的話，也許更快也不一定。","現在我問一下施部長，這跟人事總處一起的，思瑤一直在催生的心理假，這也是落實賴總統的心理健康相關政策，我們研議了請假辦法，什麼時候可以上路？這個比增加4+1天假我認為更重要。"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，總處那邊完整地研議完以後就送到我們這邊，我們現在正在進行預告，預告完以後我們就會送到考試院做最後的確認，考試院確認以後再跟行政院會銜，我想應該不會太慢。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以現在部送到院，考試院要快一點喔！"],["施部長能傑：我們還沒有送去，快送了……"],["吳委員思瑤：然後考試院再送到行政院會銜。我想蘇人事長，你們都同意吧？兩位都是主事者，明年上路公務體系的心理假，是不是可以期待、是不是Yes？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一定是的、肯定是的。"],["吳委員思瑤：好！很好，謝謝你們的答案。我不需要凍結預算，我也可以催生公務人員的心理假，因為我可以透過我鍥而不捨地監督各項會議而達到這個政策的目的。","還有一件事情我要提醒，就退撫基金我多次說，我們需要做到ESG，退撫基金對於投資碳足跡居然是所有當中高的，包括勞保基金、新制勞退、舊制勞退、郵政儲金等投資金額裡頭，你們投資碳足跡是最高的。用國家的退撫基金來投資高碳產業，我們一定要檢討。所以氣候相關財務揭露（TCFD）國內各金控已經上路了，綠色金融3.0也納入了，退撫基金要跟上，我質詢過，今天有一筆解凍案就是跟退撫基金的管理相關，部長，可不可以正面地告訴我，你們這方面已經在努力跟上了？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，我們已經在努力，而且我們已經要正式出版一個報告，也要召開一個會議，未來我們的投資策略組合裡面就會把這個議題也一併納進去，也謝謝委員一直在關心這個議題。"],["吳委員思瑤：這個比今天在野黨委員凍結你們退撫基金，要你們針對投資的決策會議紀錄公開還重要的多，我希望你們能夠趕快跟上。","我最後一個題目再占用一分鐘，請人事長，人事長最近大家都在關心國安漏洞，針對公務體系的一般忠誠查核或是特查，一般查核是你們進行，特查是調查局。最近我們都針對國會成為國安漏洞的死角，那天我們在質詢調查局，他們希望能夠針對現在1,328個特查的職位要擴充到2,336個，但是還是沒有納入立法院的職員工，您的看法呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我想這個部分還是要尊重立法院內部的一個規範。"],["吳委員思瑤：您也支持如果立法院訂定自己的特查辦法，後續你們跟調查局分工上，大家來協力進行？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：如果是立法院通過的話，我想特查這部分就是調查局，他一定會按照整個規定去執行，需要的人力缺口，我們會給予協助。"],["吳委員思瑤：站在您是督導、管理所有公務體系人員的大家長，您認為立法院的職員工現在被排除在特查之外，立法院的職員工接觸機密的機會非常高，您認不認為來督促立法院訂定特查辦法？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基本上，我們還是要尊重立法院的決定。"],["吳委員思瑤：你支不支持嘛？否則國安漏洞就在立法院。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我不反對這個啊，委員也講得很清楚，因為在立法院接觸到機敏資料的場合還有人員也非常多。"],["吳委員思瑤：我希望人事長，您要更積極正面一點，不能因為特查辦法是調查局在進行，你就好像無關緊要。我要說的是所有公務體系同仁都適用於公務人員任用法、公務人員服務法，他適用的法規是一致的，沒有道理只有立法院的職員工與聞機密這麼高，他們卻長期被排除，所以我具體要求調查局已經從1,328個特查職位要擴充到2,336個，但是還是排除了立法院的職員工，我要求要納入，而我也支持立法院要自行課責自我的自律來訂定特查辦法，我會支持、我會努力，希望人事總處也更正向。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們也會支持。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝，那就質詢到這。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員。"],["主席（莊委員瑞雄）：謝謝吳思瑤委員質詢。","接下來請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-16","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","吳宗憲","沈發惠","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra 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主席謝謝 麻煩請我們次長好 陳次長好 陳次長幾個交通專業的部分也是國人所關心的政策的轉彎我想也要跟你再就教一下 來"},{"start":21.71,"end":34.667,"text":"去年我們就一直在討論是說我們客運業相關的駕駛人力短缺的部分而當時國發會說召集相關單位有講出一個是能夠開放僑生畢業僑生來擔任"},{"start":36.95,"end":65.641,"text":"我們的客運駕駛 對不對也已經從去年9月30號今年的專案報告甚至專案報告當時在交通委員會本席也有質詢過有提到說會有配套會有跟跨部會溝通並且要求我們安全包括語言能力考證照不會放水等等都有講籌備了快一年時間嘛結果突然間本來預告說4月底要上路然後結果說"},{"start":67.169,"end":90.163,"text":"臨時喊咖對 我也就我們的了解是因為講得還那麼理所當然不是 就是不是喊咖啦就是說我們的了解是預告的時候就是我們相關法案在政策在施做的時候都會有相關的法令的預告那預告期間呢因為各界有不同的建議的意見各界的不同建議的聲音不是應該是去年9月30號你們提出來的時候市長"},{"start":95.746,"end":117.627,"text":"因為之前有部長也有來答詢過也有我們相關部會的同仁來答詢過當時本席也針對這樣的一個問題來請教本席那時候講的是說什麼是說即便是開放但是我們很多國內的大型車駕照的人數其實比駕駛人還要多換言之並不是說沒有人去考駕照"},{"start":118.188,"end":136.519,"text":"而是大家不一定願意拿到駕照的時候去當駕駛那時候你們提出來的解方是說沒關係我們開放畢業僑生講了一年耶而且那個時候煞有其事又講是說語言能力考證照不會放水然後還要有一年的配套跨部會都溝通好了結果現在突然喊咖"},{"start":137.574,"end":150.654,"text":"那這樣不就是過去這一年的時間客運業大概也在等是說可以有新的活水進來結果完全沒有來 我就這樣請教是就喊咖了還是後續會推動還是有什麼配套措施"},{"start":152.338,"end":173.804,"text":"我跟委員報告後續不是喊卡啦後續我們因為有相關的配套措施所以公路局會跟客運全聯會等等在就相關的議題我看到的新聞講是說勞動部那邊因為修法預告所以說有疑慮暫停有沒有跟我們公路局溝通"},{"start":174.924,"end":203.462,"text":"有 勞動部因為他預告的時候代表說之前交通部推出這個相關法例的時候沒有先跟勞動部溝通好跟我有報告因為法規預告是收集社會各界的意見所以社會各界的意見就是說大家提出來以後是送到預告法規的這個主管機關勞動部那勞動部就是說因為有提出來就是社會各界有一些提到就是他擔任這個客運或貨運的駕駛的話在語言上面是不是還有一些其他的一個"},{"start":204.042,"end":226.494,"text":"你要不要看一下我們半年前專案報告時候我們好幾個委員關心就關心到這一題嘛大家都認為是說語言可能會有問題結果你們專案報告裡面講都沒有你們專案報告裡面特別講語言能力一定會要求結果現在反而用這個來當理由我覺得這樣子是很噁心耶"},{"start":229.848,"end":244.375,"text":"來 市長再說明一下是語言的能力是很重要所以他們現在當然很重要啊現在他們會進一步的跟相關的客運業者如何落實把這樣的一個事情變成然後再招聘的再僱傭的時候不是來我們是不是簡單說明一下未來會怎麼做"},{"start":249.588,"end":253.271,"text":"目前科育業者未來聘僱僑外生擔任駕駛本來僑外生在國內受教育是基本的語言能力未來我們對於相關擔任客運駕駛上面包括語言能力的一些基本門檻"},{"start":273.869,"end":288.361,"text":"或者是還有經過相關的這個業者的一個訓練這個部分我們會跟客運業者再來討論然後訂定相關的一個配套措施再送給勞動部局長現在是勞動部喊卡欸 局長不能說你們"},{"start":290.356,"end":309.447,"text":"這個重點非常重要停車場我等一下也會問但我說現在我看到的這一個部分其實是讓大家覺得是說你們政府完全沒有橫向聯繫講了大半年的政策結果突然間又喊咔會讓民眾無所適從也會讓客運業者覺得說莫名其妙你好像是朝三暮四"},{"start":310.387,"end":335.517,"text":"之前先跟大家講說有有有開放了然後結果突然間就喊卡這一些不都是應該是你們一開始推出政策的時候就應該考慮到又應該評估到的地方嗎勞動部有問題結果你現在還講是說是要跟客運業者溝通今天是客運業者不想要開放嗎不是啊那怎麼會你們現在講是說要去跟客運業者溝通然後勞動部那邊怎麼解決市長是不是應該找勞動部兩個部會來討論"},{"start":339.981,"end":358.146,"text":"這一部分我們一定會跟勞動部來討論的照理講這個政策要上路前就應該也要討論 這邊也要討論只是法規預告了以後各界有不同的建議界以後市長我比較具體是不是一個月內交通部找勞動部針對這個部分看能夠怎麼樣補正修正"},{"start":359.987,"end":385.563,"text":"來 因為我看到部長的講法交通部陳部長的講法是說還是希望能夠開放是 是 這政策是我們是朝這個方向所以是不是應該要主動找勞動部溝通這沒問題 我們則由公務局跟勞動部來溝通幫個忙 真的政策不是倉促丟出來然後各自橫向聯繫完全沒有在這件事情上面我覺得橫向聯繫是非常糟糕的一件事來 再來"},{"start":387.199,"end":406.864,"text":"格勒子透光率我覺得這已經是討論很久了最近有講到說我們要調整格勒子的透光率但是居然講一個是說只管新車不管舊車那如果說大家新車領牌我領牌一個月之後我再去裝那算是新車還舊車"},{"start":410.543,"end":425.03,"text":"我先簡單講一下我買一個新車然後我現在都是沒有貼隔熱紙我一個月之後我跟業務講好一個月之後你再幫我裝我先給監理站看一下我沒有貼一個月後裝裝了之後我不管了"},{"start":426.332,"end":453.593,"text":"這樣不是做半套嗎我跟委員報告我們講的新車是說某一年開始的車輛不是不是你講不是剛才委員的意思是說那以前的車以前的車都不管我們以前的車輛我們會有相關的一個指引會把相關的一個但目前看起來你們在新聞上也好或是打詢上也好其實都沒有講到舊車的部分來幾個國家美國透光率要求各州不一樣從20幾%到80幾%"},{"start":456.809,"end":464.656,"text":"日本要求70%以上德國更是全面禁止前黨裝格勒子"},{"start":465.888,"end":494.076,"text":"換言之其實世界各國也都有看到是說前檔格勒子的部分有一些是駕駛的安全 視線有一些是外在看裡面譬如說像美國有一些州就認為是說他怕可能駕駛裡面看不清楚所以執法人員會比較擔心也因此他要求前檔的那個透光率一定到一定的比例那我們現在只有70%但是沒有任何的強制性甚至我們沒有做相關的一個儀器來做檢驗"},{"start":495.495,"end":498.106,"text":"那還有就是救車的部分你都說只有指引"},{"start":499.824,"end":529.116,"text":"很多的民眾團體其實也認為是說我們站在不管是安全道路的安全行人的安全駕駛的安全都應該要入法或是規範市長您怎麼看我簡單跟委員說明一下有關那個隔熱紙的一個使用它當然跟安全是有關的所以公務局在相關的以往的研究也好那剛才委員也特別提到各國其實對於隔熱紙的規定的這樣的一個標準其實也是不一"},{"start":529.676,"end":559.016,"text":"那考量整個我們國家的一個情形然後整個安全的一個重視的一個程度所以目前這個公務局它是還是有規範相關的一個前檔跟側檔的側窗的一個相關的透光率的一個標準那另外對於新車也好或者是使用的中的車輛也好現在都有相關的一個規範有好幾位委員已經有質詢過現在問題就是你們有規範但是沒有罰則或沒有落實"},{"start":560.217,"end":582.677,"text":"這才是大家會認為是說你這樣子的規範是不一定規範會有用我們現在的相關的一個規範委員大家應該也了解我們大概六月的時候會有一個相關的一個指引會出來那明年開始呢會對新車剛才特別提到的新車的相關的要求那新車的要求以後他如果不符合相關的規定當然就會有相關的一個處罰這是"},{"start":584.398,"end":597.005,"text":"所以還是會有納入法規其實真的還是建議因為現在都還是在研擬階段對不對是六月會公告對不對所以說針對說台灣的交通是不是應該要更一體適用不管是新車舊車如果說相關的規範最後"},{"start":600.95,"end":620.651,"text":"抱歉一分鐘的部分我覺得說電動車這個停車場的部分我還是希望能夠來了解一下那當然跟我們今天相關的修法也有相關聯不過本席有看到另外一個民怨的部分來我們看一下停車場現在因為多元支付也有一點點混淆"},{"start":621.954,"end":648.95,"text":"一個是說他有這個停車場他採權電子化沒有現金那民眾說要進去停車結果出來之後反而他沒有相關的多元支付結果他變成是說要出來很麻煩那再來也有有些停車場是他明明是有多元支付但是壞掉了或說他就是一直顯示故障中所以他只能收現金那次長"},{"start":652.403,"end":678.775,"text":"我覺得停車的部分也是民眾每天幾乎都需要停車那我們有看到 當然可能我們交通部會長是說這個相關收費以及什麼可能會有其他的主管機關但是畢竟停車場中央主管機關是我們交通部那有沒有一個比較一致性的方式至少讓停車業者以及讓民眾能夠取得一個平衡在這樣的事情不要說發生說二則一然後讓民眾產生其他的民怨"},{"start":679.895,"end":685.897,"text":"有沒有看到這樣的狀況我想跟委員報告這分兩個其實這個支付從這一張來看我們其實是多多鼓勵這個停車場是要多元支付所以多元支付有包含各種支付的方式那這裡頭提到的是說原來是一個每億的多元支付因為機器故障然後產生某種方式沒辦法處理"},{"start":703.061,"end":721.234,"text":"所以這部分我想我們會跟責成這個地方主管機關就加強這樣的一個督導還有這個相關的停車設施的一個妥善率我們現在的停車場管理辦法一分鐘停車場管理辦法裡面我們有沒有相關規定一定要有什麼樣的支付方式"},{"start":722.094,"end":742.962,"text":"目前是沒有 是所以說才會變成到這樣的情況因為我記得我國的法令有規定就是如果說我們用相關的這個新台幣支付你接收者不能拒絕譬如說有些時候有些民眾他拿一百個一塊要去付一百塊但是接收者他也是要接收嘛"},{"start":743.422,"end":769.731,"text":"對不對 這個是現金的流通的一個我們互信原則跟一個公平信嘛那剛剛看到這兩個新聞其實這就是本席之前也有接收到民眾的一個陳情一個是他不能擠付現金 只能用電子支付一個是只有付現金 沒有電子支付那對我們中央組織機關裡面是不是能夠有更統一的辦法至少有一個支付方式是所有地方都可以使用的"},{"start":771.649,"end":796.79,"text":"我跟委員以前大家可能會覺得是現金現金支付的方式我想是必然是基本的啦那委員剛才特別提到的有很多尤其是人力的一個節省所以很多像這種收費方式是無人採用機器所以如何確保機器的這個正常使用我想這一部分我們會請地方政府或者是如果說有一些是多元支付但是他至少"},{"start":797.431,"end":800.439,"text":"業者提供一個電話還是什麼能夠讓民眾在現場來協助做引導不要發聲上一頁"},{"start":805.916,"end":829.829,"text":"不要發生就說車停進去但是車出不來的狀況我想這才是我們所關心的重點是這一部分我的了解很像這個都會有一個類似像按鈕或電話可以有一個人來通知服務那這部分如果沒有的話我想我們會也是一樣我們每一年大概都會停車場都有督導那在這部分的時候我們來加強要求加強落實好不好是是是謝謝是謝謝洪孟楷"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":344,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（10時13分）主席謝謝，麻煩請次長。"],["主席：好，陳次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：陳次長，幾個交通專業的部分，也是國人所關心的政策轉彎，我想也要跟你再就教一下，去年我們就一直在討論客運業相關駕駛人力短缺的部分，當時國發會說有召集相關單位研議出一個能夠開放畢業僑生來擔任我們客運駕駛的方式，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：已經從去年9月30號、今年的專案報告，甚至當時在交通委員會專案報告時，本席也有質詢過，有提到會有配套、會跟跨部會溝通，並且要求安全，包括語言能力、考證照不會放水等等，都有講，籌備了快一年的時間嘛，本來預告4月底要上路，結果卻臨時喊卡啊？"],["陳次長彥伯：對，委員，據我們的了解是因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：對？還講得那麼理所當然！"],["陳次長彥伯：不是，不是喊卡啦，就我們的了解，是預告的時候，我們相關法案、政策要施作時，都會有相關的法令預告，預告期間因為各界有不同的建議、意見，所以他們現在……"],["洪委員孟楷：各界的不同建議聲音不是應該在去年9月30號你們提出來的時候……次長，之前部長也有來答詢過，也有相關部會同仁來答詢過，當時本席也針對這樣的問題來請教。本席那時候是說即便開放，但是國內持有大型車駕照的人數其實比駕駛人還要多，換言之，並不是沒有人去考駕照，而是大家拿到駕照之後不一定願意去當駕駛。那時候你們提出來的解方是說：沒關係，我們開放畢業僑生。講了一年了，而且那個時候還煞有其事地說語言能力、考證照不會放水，然後還有一年的配套，跨部會都溝通好了，結果現在突然喊卡，這樣不就是過去這一年的時間，客運業也都在等，想說可以有新的活水進來，結果完全沒有。我只是想請教，是就喊卡了還是後續會推動，還是有什麼配套措施？"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告，不是喊卡啦，後續因為我們有相關的配套措施……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是喊卡，那什麼時候可以喊action？"],["陳次長彥伯：公路局會跟客運全聯會等等，再就相關的議題討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：我看到的新聞是說勞動部因為修法預告，所以有疑慮而暫停。有沒有跟公路局溝通？"],["陳局長文瑞：有，因為勞動部預告的時候，就是有一些意見……"],["洪委員孟楷：代表之前交通部推出相關法令的時候，沒有先跟勞動部溝通好。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，因為法規預告是蒐集社會各界的意見，社會各界提出意見後是送到預告法規的主管機關勞動部。因此勞動部的部分，因為社會各界有提出相關意見，就是有關擔任客運或貨運駕駛，在語言上面是不是還要有一些其他的限制。"],["洪委員孟楷：你要不要看一下半年前專案報告時，我們好幾個委員關心，就關心到這一題嘛，大家都認為語言可能會有問題，結果你們專案報告裡面提到都沒有問題，你們專案報告裡面特別講語言能力一定會要求，結果現在反而用這個當理由，我覺得這樣子很兒戲耶！次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員，我再說明一下，語言的能力是很重要，所以他們現在……"],["洪委員孟楷：當然很重要啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：他們會進一步跟相關的客運業者討論如何落實，讓這樣的事情變成在招聘、僱用的時候，不會產生相關問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是簡單說明一下未來會怎麼做？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，目前大概就是說，客運業者未來聘僱僑外生擔任駕駛，當然本來僑外生在國內受教育的時候，其實會有基本的語言能力，未來的話，對於擔任客運駕駛的部分，包括語言能力的一些基本門檻，或是還需要經過業者的訓練，這個部分我們會跟客運業者再來討論，並訂定相關配套措施再送給勞動部。"],["洪委員孟楷：局長，現在是勞動部喊卡。次長，這個重點非常重要，停車場我等一下也會問，但我說現在我看到的這個部分，其實是讓大家覺得你們政府完全沒有橫向聯繫，講了大半年的政策，結果突然間又喊卡，會讓民眾無所適從，也會讓客運業者覺得莫名其妙，好像是朝三暮四耶！之前先跟大家講說有、有、有，開放了，結果突然間又喊卡，這些不應該是你們一開始推出政策的時候，就應該考慮到也應該評估到的地方嗎？勞動部有問題，結果你現在竟然還說是要跟客運業者溝通，今天是客運業者不想要開放嗎？不是啊，你們現在怎麼會說要去跟客運業者溝通，那勞動部那邊怎麼解決？次長，是不是應該找勞動部，兩個部會來討論？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個部分我們一定會跟勞動部討論的。"],["洪委員孟楷：照理講，這個政策要上路前就應該跟勞動部討論過嘛。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，這部分也有討論，只是法規預告了以後各界有不同的建議、意見……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，我具體建議，是不是一個月內交通部找勞動部針對這個部分看能夠怎麼樣補正、修正？因為我看到交通部陳部長的講法是說還是希望能夠開放。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，這個政策我們是朝這個方向。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以是不是應該主動找勞動部溝通？"],["陳次長彥伯：好，這沒問題，我們責由公路局跟勞動部溝通。"],["洪委員孟楷：幫個忙，真的，政策不是倉促丟出來……"],["陳次長彥伯：沒問題，是。"],["洪委員孟楷：然後橫向的聯繫完全沒有。在這件事情上面，我覺得你們的橫向聯繫非常糟糕。","再來是有關隔熱紙透光率的議題，我覺得這已經討論很久了，最近有講到要調整隔熱紙的透光率，但是居然是說只管新車、不管舊車，如果新車領牌一個月之後再去裝，那算是新車還是舊車？"],["陳次長彥伯：我先簡單講一下……"],["洪委員孟楷：我買一個新車，然後都沒有貼隔熱紙，我跟業務講好，一個月之後再幫我裝，我先給監理站看一下現在沒有貼，一個月後裝，裝了之後我就不管了，這樣不是做半套嗎？"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告，我們講的新車是說某一年開始的車輛，不是剛才委員的意思……"],["洪委員孟楷：那以前的車都不管？"],["陳次長彥伯：有關以前的車輛，我們會有相關的指引，相關的指引會告訴業者……"],["洪委員孟楷：但目前看起來，你們在新聞上也好或是答詢上也好，其實都沒有講到舊車的部分。","來，關於幾個國家的規定，美國的透光率要求各州不一樣，從百分之二十幾到百分之八十幾%；日本要求70%以上；德國更是全面禁止前擋裝隔熱紙。換言之，其實也都有看到世界對於各國前擋隔熱紙的部分，有一些是駕駛的安全視線、有一些是從外在看裡面，像美國有一些州就怕駕駛在裡面可能看不清楚，所以執法人員會比較擔心，也因此要求前擋的透光率到一定的比例。","而我們現在只有70%，但是沒有任何的強制性，甚至我們沒有相關的儀器檢驗；還有舊車的部分，你說只有指引，很多的民眾、團體其實也認為，我們不管是站在道路的安全、行人的安全、駕駛的安全，都應該要入法或是規範。次長，您怎麼看？"],["陳次長彥伯：我簡單跟委員說明一下有關隔熱紙的使用。它當然跟安全是有關的，所以公路局在以往的研究也好，剛才委員也特別提到各國對隔熱紙的規定標準其實也不一，考量我們國家的整體情形、安全的重視程度，目前公路局還是有規範前擋跟側窗的透光率相關標準；另外，對於新車也好，或者是使用中的車輛也好，都有相關的規範。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，有好幾個委員已經質詢過，現在的問題就是你們有規範，但是沒有罰則或沒有落實，這才是大家認為你這樣子的規範不一定有用的原因。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我跟委員報告一下，我們現在的相關規範委員大概也了解，我們大約6月的時候有一個相關的指引會出來，明年開始會對新車，剛才特別提到新車相關的要求；開始要求新車以後，如果不符合相關的規定，當然就會有相關的處罰，所以還是會納入法規。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席真的還是建議，因為現在都還是在研擬階段，對不對？6月會公告，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果有相關的規範，針對臺灣的交通是不是應該要更一體適用，不管是新車、舊車？","抱歉，最後1分鐘，停車場的部分我還是希望能夠了解一下，當然跟我們今天相關的修法也有關聯，不過本席有看到另外一個民怨，我們看一下，停車場現在因為多元支付也有一點點混淆，一個是這個停車場採全電子化、沒有現金，民眾要進去停車，因為他沒有相關的多元支付，結果變成要出來很麻煩；再來，也有些停車場明明有多元支付，但是壞掉了，或者一直顯示故障中，所以它只能收現金。","次長，我覺得停車的部分也是民眾每天幾乎都需要的，可能交通部會說這個相關收費有其他的主管機關，但畢竟停車場的中央主管機關是交通部，有沒有一個比較一致性的方式，至少讓停車業者以及民眾能夠取得一個平衡？在這樣的事情上，不要發生二擇一，讓民眾產生其他的民怨。有沒有看到這樣的狀況？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想跟委員報告，這分兩個，其實相關支付從這一張可以看到，我們其實多多鼓勵停車場要多元支付，而多元支付也包含各種支付的方式。這裡頭提到的是，原來是一個美意的多元支付，因為機器故障，然後產生某種方式沒辦法處理，這部分我們會責成地方主管機關加強督導，還有相關停車設施的妥善率。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在的停車場管理辦法裡面有沒有相關規定，規範一定要有什麼樣的支付方式？"],["陳次長彥伯：目前沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以才會變成這樣的情況。我記得我國的法令有規定，如果用新臺幣支付，接收者不能拒絕，譬如說有些時候有的民眾拿100個1塊要去付100塊，但是接收者也要接收，對不對？這是現金流通的互信原則跟公平性。關於剛剛看到這兩個新聞，其實本席之前也有接收到民眾陳情，一個是他不能給付現金，只能用電子支付；一個是只有付現金，沒有電子支付。而中央主管機關是不是能夠有更統一的辦法，至少有一個支付方式是所有地方都可以使用的？以前大家可能會覺得是現金，但現在……"],["陳次長彥伯：對，現金支付的方式我想這必然是基本的，關於委員剛才特別提到的，尤其是因為節省人力，所以很多收費方式是無人、採用機器，因此如何確保機器正常使用，我想這一部分我們會請地方政府……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果有一些是多元支付，但是業者至少提供一個電話或其他方式，讓民眾在現場能夠得到協助、引導，不要發生車停進去但是車出不來的狀況，這才是我們所關心的重點。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，這部分依我的了解，好像都會有一個類似像按鈕或電話可以讓人來通知服務，這一部分如果沒有的話，我們也是一樣，我們每一年對停車場都有督導，那這部分我們會來加強要求。"],["洪委員孟楷：加強落實，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：是！"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","現在請李昆澤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-11","speakers":["林國成","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","許智傑","陳素月","蔡其昌","何欣純","林俊憲","張啓楷","廖先翔","李昆澤","游顥","黃健豪","陳雪生","魯明哲","徐富癸","邱若華","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查(一)委員吳宗憲等17人、(二)委員賴士葆等28人、(三)委員楊瓊瓔等26人分別擬具「人\n工智慧基本法草案」及(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工智慧發展及管理條例草案」案；二、審查\n( 一) 委員林俊憲等23 人擬具「公路法第二十七條、第二十八條及第七十五條條文修正草案」、\n(二)委員陳冠廷等18人、(三)委員徐富癸等17人分別擬具「公路法第三十二條條文修正草案」、\n(四)委員陳冠廷等16人擬具「公路法第三十三條條文修正草案」、(五)台灣民眾黨黨團、(六)委\n員馬文君等19 人、( 七) 委員邱若華等17 人分別擬具「公路法第三十九條之一條文修正草案」、\n(八)委員何欣純等18人擬具「公路法第四十六條及第六十條之一條文修正草案」、(九)委員王義\n川等16人擬具「公路法第六十五條條文修正草案」及(十)委員林俊憲等21人擬具「公路法第七十\n二條條文修正草案」案；三、審查 ( 一 ) 委員林俊憲等 22 人擬具「停車場法第四條條文修正草\n案」、(二)委員廖先翔等17人擬具「停車場法第三十二條條文修正草案」及(三)台灣民眾黨黨團\n擬具「停車場法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。【本日會議僅針對開會事由二及三進行合併詢\n答】","agenda_id":"1144802_00001"}}},{"id":"161183","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161183","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2e24114430e85d5248992980d6e6b14163ba08a40ece61fce877ab6b0e850c6a4b664da36d5803b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:09:43 - 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有請我們法務部正部長好 正部長我請人事長 人事長人事長 你先人事長 上個禮拜好多假日來得又急又快"},{"start":26.224,"end":50.747,"text":"大家都懷疑了 懷疑人家他唱歌 有人幫歌的當然也唱那針對這個新增國定假日這件事情講得更直接一點 就是說其實就剩下總統公告而已嘛對 總統公告之後 這個整個新的制度就要來上路了時間緊 那應該是挑戰也大 大家好奇就是說你們人總 你們這樣準備好嗎"},{"start":54.341,"end":81.514,"text":"這個要當總統三度過,我們也是要再簽行政委因為這裡面以今年三個假日來講一個是禮拜六、一個禮拜天、一個禮拜四嘛對啊,拜時的到底有要補假嗎?因為有的人是很不需要補假的,如果可以補假,不要他們補上班啦逮捕那些人的期待啦像這樣的話,因為雖然也是有一天禮拜五要上班這些細節我們還是要簽行政院啦"},{"start":82.174,"end":96.986,"text":"所以這個其實我看幾乎快定案了啦就有待總統去做一個公告但是你們該準備的還是要準備啦你像譬如說你這個這也不是明年的事情"},{"start":97.526,"end":113.189,"text":"今年你就要去實施 像你提到的三個節日的問題有一個禮拜六 有一個是禮拜天這個不只是公務機關啦 還包括民間的公司 學校 醫療 院所 又交通單位咧你們這就不怕排成 調人力 調人力 甚至有預算像譬如說 你剛提到那兩個 會不會補放的問題或是說你會把那個整個連續假期 你要是往前還是往後去挪"},{"start":128.64,"end":153.565,"text":"這個人總這邊其實應該是要未雨綢繆啦你自己創作好資料 讓民眾可以一清二楚簡單又明瞭 事先做一個規劃這個就是一個生活的一個秩序嘛我不知道你的看法是怎麼樣啦這我是覺得你要提早去做一個準備另外就是說 你看人總每一年大約都是在年中去公告隔年的辦公日曆啦"},{"start":154.666,"end":167.755,"text":"你每年的日曆是不是一併去做公告那你今年修正版的日曆你當時的功課是不是跟每年的你做回去的功課還是要分開去做一個功課這有一個好處啦你這個本來你的職長本來就是責無旁貸"},{"start":172.739,"end":177.664,"text":"他們好好地去盤點所有的配套統一規劃這樣有一個節奏清楚對外說明各單位也好 企業也好他們也要知道說要怎麼安排不然大家在那各自解讀 高雄又亂成一團來 任省我給委員報告啦 這裡目前今年度的規定是如果拜六"},{"start":196.804,"end":219.794,"text":"下課就是拜五補課你如果要拜那裡不就要拜就是拜陰嘛那就是目前的情形剛才委員講的那其實就是我們目前已經在作業在規劃階段因為我們要處理的一個是今年在總統公告之後三讀公告之後下半年就是三個階段我們要怎麼處理同時明年的"},{"start":220.234,"end":245.814,"text":"事實上明年的我們大概在3月份就已經草擬好了啦但是不然這次我們會重新整理一下阿目標齁 目標應該是看六月第一天 因為哎呀 委員報告 因為那剛才委員在講的 那是跟金融有關跟教育部有關 經濟部也有關 勞動部 行動部會都有關我們會先跟他們一起開會討論"},{"start":247.415,"end":267.211,"text":"找出一個共識節,最大公約數啦,這樣這叫做沐浴成熟,這通過後,假多了這麼多天以後放假的人一定會很開心,可是該規劃的要未雨綢繆好,好不好?OK,沒問題,好,謝謝董事長請回,請我們法務部政府部長還有我們矯正署署長來,部長、署長"},{"start":278.784,"end":298.151,"text":"本席在去年12月質詢過我們署長就關於整個累進廚藝的一個問題那這個會期其實我也排了很多的一個監所去做一個考察就是要了解現行累進廚藝的一個機制的一個問題所以今天我來繼續追蹤我一直都認為說這個"},{"start":301.189,"end":314.797,"text":"案件一發生尤其是刑事犯罪發生以後社會常常是軒然大波但是等到這個法案判決確定以後我想這是已經到一個段落那是另外一個階段的一個開始也就是說我一直都認為"},{"start":316.277,"end":339.663,"text":"你犯罪者你受到應有的應報 應有的處罰 法案的一個判決這個其實都很合理啊 可是呢 當他成為一個受刑人到監獄去以後啊監獄應該就不是一個人性的一個終點 反而他是一個救贖的一個起跑線那應該另外一個改端嘛所以呢 怎樣去構築更安全的一個社會安全網"},{"start":340.723,"end":342.926,"text":"不要說這些社會亂亂的了 選舉一個軒然大波你亂社會 國家給你硬爆 給你處罰 這合理啊可是呢 就是說 你這個監獄的門 你要關注這個罪犯關注這些犯罪"},{"start":358.303,"end":376.268,"text":"可是他進去你也要敞開一個希望,給他一個希望。我想請教署長,我剛才說的累進求餘的部分,我已經點解,你也說往廢除的方向去做一個前進,那你們現在的進度,現在是到哪一個階段,是不是也跟大家來做一個報告?"},{"start":377.279,"end":392.173,"text":"是 報告委員我們本署在明天會針對離境處議再召開一次的會議我們希望在明天召開之後就可以等於可以完成之後我們會盡快來報佈"},{"start":394.989,"end":419.511,"text":"是 我實在是都在法務部 你們做一些報告之後我們辦公室來討論 我覺得你們有道理 我們持續追蹤這個其實都是整個預證的一個改革 立法院對你們表達一個支持另外我要繼續講的就是說 這個以現在來看的話 雷神廚藝將壽星人按照不同的等級給予相應的一個權利你去看這個壽星人剛進去監獄的時候"},{"start":421.713,"end":447.66,"text":"有時候你會覺得那是家鄉跟壽星人之間那種連動其實壽星人這個時候反而是最需要家人的一個支持你初期在服刑的時候你跟家人聯繫深刻去反省的階段但是我們現在的一個累進處役剛好相反你去限縮接近跟通信的一個機會跟教化的初衷其實我覺得都要背道而馳署長你的看法"},{"start":450.819,"end":476.791,"text":"我是同意委員的意見因為累進廚藝是在民國35年那時候制定的那現在因為時空的變化所以剛剛委員提的那個親情的關懷是很重要的我們將來在修法裡面除了這個之外包括說不合理的現象市級可以看電視 三級反而"},{"start":478.871,"end":501.981,"text":"收音機這個是以前是留聲機留聲機又等於收音機是三級才可以持有那我們現在的社會電視很普遍所以它四級就可以持有反過來會問說四級可以持有電視那三級才能夠持有收音機這個好像怪怪的"},{"start":502.421,"end":524.667,"text":"所以類似這種我們都會一併來檢討另外跟委員報告我們這個連線處理的重點會縮短刑期把他拉高跟外遇間一般監獄跟外遇間差異不要那麼大另外就是要跟假釋來透過那這樣子我想對於我們整個管理運作會有正面的幫助"},{"start":525.43,"end":538.357,"text":"其實你有講到一個重點了啦,就是說,你說要這個跟假式來做一個透過,以你目前來看的話,你看那個教會師啊,這柏林你剛才聽到書長在說,就是變大就好像每一個教會師都變成一個,好像數學老師一樣,大家都在玩數字遊戲啊。"},{"start":545.574,"end":561.144,"text":"檢察官或者我們檢調人員司法機關去打擊犯罪這個都是符合社會的一個期待可是當他是一個受刑人進入到另外一個階段除非你要把他擁事把他做一個隔絕不然你不是要讓他再社會化嗎"},{"start":562.125,"end":565.546,"text":"你現在來看的話 你像刑刑累進處以裡面你根據的等級越高 你縮刑的日數本來就越高的一個規定你若要求達到二級才能提報去做一個假釋也就是說我們現在刑法77條的一個假釋你本來受徒刑的執行 而有圈毀實據的話"},{"start":581.132,"end":593.42,"text":"有基督行你說二十五宗 有基督行二分之一累進到這個累犯是三分之二那你就監獄報警法務部的時候 那得以假釋來出獄可是以現在來看的話 你又要達到滿二級這就像書長你剛才說到的這個整個方向你要往哪裡去走我反而會覺得啊 這個都是值得我們修法的一個思考的一個方向你知道書長你要看我是怎樣"},{"start":609.886,"end":629.921,"text":"我們這一套累進除也好假釋也好是行之很久了當然我們會把它做適當的修正但是我們不是完全把它匯除我們是在監獄學習法有一個專章把可以適用的一些條文把它匯整後納進去當然不會自愛難行"},{"start":633.183,"end":651.91,"text":"我現在擔心的就是說其實這一套考核的一個制度啊你也很清楚了就變成混亂掉了你受刑人沒有辦法去了解到自己的一個分數的一個情況之下你整個變成大家在玩數字的一個遊戲啊那我在想啦就是說以現行的這一行政來看的話"},{"start":653.123,"end":671.191,"text":"不應該像以現在來看的話 就大部分都是比較類似於那種壓迫性的一個服從啦 倒不是從教化這個部分去造一個著眼講這個社會大眾未必聽得下去啦 有的人認為說你這個犯罪啦你本來就是受到這個報應 這個我都贊成"},{"start":673.792,"end":691.091,"text":"但是我都認為有好幾個階段好幾個階段除非啊監獄是完全要關注犯罪的地方不給這些受刑人敞開任何希望的地方那我就沒話講但是呢這個都值得我們這整個掌管最高這監獄行政的"},{"start":691.491,"end":705.662,"text":"法務部或者我們家政署這個地方一併來做一個思考啦畢竟我們也我看學者專家還有法務部我們都有那麼多的一個學者專家去做一個研究往更好的一個方向去走啦有時候"},{"start":707.463,"end":731.014,"text":"我們有委託兩家大學去研究我們得出一個很重要的結論我們會簡化考核制度因為我們經過幾次的一些修法確實太複雜了有的新任的教委師他還搞不太清楚所以我們會朝著簡化考核制度讓每個教委師更有效率更能夠保障受用人的權益"},{"start":731.494,"end":744.551,"text":"所以我該講的還是要講啦不然我今天本集講的這一句話哪一天又有一個重大案件發生的時候把這一句話又連結的話那個都又是政治口水啦可是呢 該改革的方向還是要改革 好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":719,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時9分）謝謝主席，有請法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：好，鄭部長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：等一下，我請人事長。"],["主席：人事長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：人事長先。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：人事長。上個禮拜好多假日來得又急又快，大家都賺到了，賺到了的人很開心，能放假當然很開心，針對新增國定假日這件事情，講得更直接一點，其實就剩下總統公告而已嘛，總統公告之後，新的制度就要上路了，時間緊，挑戰應該也大，大家好奇你們人總這邊準備好了嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這要等總統公告後，我們還是要再簽行政院，因為這裡面，以今年3個假日來講，一個是禮拜六、一個禮拜天、一個禮拜四嘛？"],["莊委員瑞雄：對。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：星期四的到底要不要補假？因為有的人很不喜歡補假，最好可以放假，而不用補上班，這是大部分人的期待，像這樣的話，雖然有一天禮拜五要上班，這些細節我們還是要簽行政院。"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實我看這個幾乎快定案了，就有待總統去做公告，但是你們該準備的還是要準備，譬如說，這也不是明年的事情，是你今年就要實施，就像你提到3個節日的問題，有一個禮拜六、有一個是禮拜天，這個不只是公務機關啦，還包括民間的公司、學校、醫療院所，還有交通單位，你們如果不趕快排程、調人力，甚至還有預算，譬如說你剛提到那2個會不會補放的問題，或是你把整個連續假期是要往前還是往後去挪，人總這邊其實應該是要未雨綢繆，你們自己去處理好之後，讓民眾可以一清二楚，簡單又明瞭，事先做規劃，這就是生活的一個秩序，我不知道你的看法是怎麼樣，但我還是覺得你要提早去做準備。","另外，你們人總每一年大約都是在年中公告隔年的辦公日曆，你明年的日曆是不是要一併去做公告？今年修正版的日曆什麼時候會公告？是不是跟明年的一併公告，還是要分開公告？這有一個好處，這個本來就是你的職掌，你本來就是責無旁貸，你們好好去盤點所有的配套，統一規劃，這樣有一個節奏來清楚對外說明，各單位也好，企業也好，他們才知道要怎麼安排，不然大家在那邊各自解讀，到時候又亂成一團。來，人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，照目前的規定，如果星期六休假就是星期五補假，如果是星期日放假就是星期一補假，這就是目前的情形。剛才委員說的其實就是我們目前已經在作業的，正在規劃階段，因為我們要處理的一個是在今年條例三讀、總統公布之後，下半年的三個節日要怎麼處理，同時，明年的部分，事實上我們大概在3月份就已經草擬好了，但是為了這次的修正，我們會再重新整理一下，目標應該是6月底以前。要再跟委員報告，因為剛才委員說的跟金融有關，跟教育部有關，跟經濟部有關，跟勞動部，跟很多部會都有關，我們會先跟他們一起開會討論，找出共識決，最大公約數啦。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這叫做木已成舟，這個通過之後，假多了這麼多天，放假的人一定會很開心，可是該規劃的要未雨綢繆，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：OK，沒問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，謝謝委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：人事長請回。請法務部鄭部長，還有矯正署署長。"],["主席：請部長、署長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長還有署長。本席在去年12月質詢過署長關於累進處遇的問題，這個會期其實我也排了很多的監所去做考察，就是要了解現行累進處遇機制的問題，所以今天我繼續追蹤。我一直都認為案件一發生，尤其是刑事犯罪發生以後，社會常常是軒然大波，但是我想等到法院判決確定以後，已經是告一個段落，也是另外一個階段的開始。也就是說，我一直都認為犯罪者受到應有的應報、應有的處罰，法院的判決，這個其實都很合理，可是當他成為受刑人到監獄去以後，監獄應該不是人性的終點，反而是救贖的起跑線，那已經是另外一個階段了，所以怎樣去構築更安全的社會安全網，不要說在社會亂一亂之後，掀起了一個軒然大波，你擾亂了社會，所以國家給你應報，給你處罰，這合理啊！可是你這個監獄的門，不但要關住罪犯，關住這些犯罪行為，但當他進去後你也要給他一個希望。所以我想請教署長，我剛剛說的累進處遇部分，我記得上次你們也有說要往廢除的方向前進，你們現在的進度是到哪一個階段？是不是也跟大家做個報告？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，針對累進處遇，本署明天會再召開一次會議，我們希望在明天召開之後就可以完成，之後我們會儘快報部。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們法務部做了一些報告，我們辦公室讀了，我覺得你們有道理，我們也會持續追蹤，這其實都是整個獄政的改革，立法院對你們表達支持。另外，我要繼續講的就是，以現在來看的話，累進處遇將受刑人按照不同的等級給予相應的權利，你去看受刑人剛進去監獄的時候，家屬跟受刑人之間的那種連動，其實受刑人這個時候反而是最需要家人的支持。初期在服刑的時候，是跟家人聯繫、深刻去反省的階段，但是我們現在的累進處遇剛好相反，你去限縮接見跟通信的機會，其實我覺得剛好跟教化的初衷背道而馳，署長的看法？"],["周署長輝煌：我同意委員的意見，因為累進處遇是在民國35年制定的，現在因為時空的變化……剛剛委員提的，親情的關懷是很重要的，我們將來在修法上，除了這個之外，包括一些不合理的現象，像四級可以看電視，三級反而才能持有收音機，這個在以前是留聲機，留聲機就等於收音機，是三級才可以持有，我們現在的社會電視很普遍，所以他四級就可以持有。但是反過來說，四級可以持有電視，三級才能夠持有收音機，這個好像怪怪的，所以類似這種我們都會一併來檢討。","另外，跟委員報告，我們這個累進處遇的重點，會縮短刑期，把它拉高，讓一般監獄跟外役監差異不要那麼大。另外就是要跟假釋脫鉤，這樣子我想對於我們整個管理運作會有正面的幫助。"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實你有講到一個重點了，你說這個要跟假釋脫鉤，以目前來看的話，你看教誨師，部長，你剛才有聽到署長在說，有時候好像每個教誨師都變成數學老師一樣，大家都在玩數字遊戲。檢察官或者檢調人員、司法機關去打擊犯罪，這個都是符合社會的期待，可是當他是一個受刑人，進入到另外一個階段，除非你要把他永世隔絕，不然你就是要讓他再社會化嘛，不是這樣嗎？以現在來看的話，像行刑累進處遇條例裡面，根據等級越高縮刑日數就越高的規定，你還要求達到二級才能提報假釋，也就是說，我們現在刑法第七十七條的假釋，本來是受徒刑的執行而有悛悔實據的話，無期徒刑逾二十五年，有期徒刑逾二分之一，累犯逾三分之二，由監獄報請法務部，得准許假釋出獄。可是以現在的規定來看的話，你又要達到二級，這就像署長剛剛說的，這整個方向要往哪裡走，我覺得都是值得我們修法的一個思考方向。不知道署長你的看法是怎麼樣？"],["周署長輝煌：我們這一套累進處遇也好，假釋也好，行之已久，當然我們會把它做適當的修正，但是我們不是完全把它廢除，我們在監獄行刑法有一個專章，把可以適用的一些條文彙整後納進去，讓它能夠不窒礙難行。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然，我現在擔心的就是，其實這一套考核的制度亂掉了，你也很清楚，在受刑人沒有辦法了解到自己分數的情況之下，整個變成大家在玩數字遊戲。我在想以現行的監獄行政來看的話，大部分都是比較類似這種壓迫性的服從，倒不是從教化這個部分去著眼。講這個社會大眾未必聽得下去，有的人認為你犯罪了，本來就是要受到報應，這個我都贊成，但是我認為有好幾個階段，除非監獄是完全要關住犯罪的地方，不給這些受刑人敞開任何希望的地方，那我就沒話講，但是這個都值得掌管最高監獄行政的法務部，或者矯政署一併思考。畢竟我看學者、專家還有法務部，有那麼多的人去做研究，要往更好的一個方向去走，有時候……"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，我們有委託兩家大學去研究，得出一個很重要的結論，我們會簡化考核制度，因為我們經過幾次的修法，確實太複雜了，有的新任教誨師還搞不太清楚，所以我們會朝著簡化考核制度去走，讓每個教誨師更有效率，更能夠保障收容人的權益。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我該講的還是要講，不然今天本席講的這一席話，哪天又發生一個重大案件的時候，把這一席話又連結的話，那又都是政治口水了，可是該改革的方向還是要改革，好不好？"],["周署長輝煌：謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊瑞雄委員。","接下來請吳思瑤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-16","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","吳宗憲","沈發惠","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra 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然後又被動了2500萬所以我們今天要處理這2500萬那這整個建制我覺得這個大家都在講說這個這個要打詐啦 這個網路犯罪啦 嚴重啦"},{"start":404.338,"end":420.595,"text":"那但是我們要建制的預算卻把我們凍結了啦齁那這個我現在要最重要的是說齁我們這個這個我們現在這個整個八億的部分到底是要做什麼"},{"start":421.311,"end":450.871,"text":"我們這個主要就是這個整個計畫是前端是警政署建置的所以是包括他是把所有三大電信業者的這些網路的這些資訊流量全部通通都儲存起來那我們後端就是去抓那個資料來我們後端這邊來做分析那這個分析會可以讓我們得到什麼得到比如說我們現在有很多這個網路的犯罪他的IP的位置是在哪裡然後如果是不同的IP的話他有沒有勾連到相同"},{"start":451.571,"end":478.004,"text":"所以這個後端的這些整個是由警政署做但後端的不只我們法務部調查局後端分成兩部分警政署他也有做後端的分析調查局也有做後端的分析那我們就是只取後端的分析那一小部分出來做而已所以我們這個後端這個主要就是在這個部分我看到說你們事實上"},{"start":479.153,"end":492.024,"text":"是不是原本我看到你們有一個電信網路流量記錄系統的一個概念驗證事實上已經發包執行對這部分不包括在這個預算裡面這個沒有這個等於就是有點像這個工程的這個前期的這個設計規劃"},{"start":500.591,"end":517.335,"text":"你們招標的預算是1790萬那個已經執行掉了我們一定要先做一個概念驗證看看我們這樣子想的到底實際上能不能做得到那這個概念驗證已經告訴我們說這個是可以做到那這次的預算"},{"start":518.996,"end":536.738,"text":"這個我們跟之前採購的我們這個具體內容它效益有沒有重複投資有沒有資源浪費就是我們過去已經執行跟中華電信執行過了沒有沒有那後續的這些是不是你除了中華電信以外你還有其他的這些電信系統業者我們也要進行這樣子相關驗證嗎"},{"start":538.239,"end":558.284,"text":"不用我們這個系統最主要是要剛剛你有提到強調有關這些網路行為的關聯分析有關多重事件的比對大概就是這些資安事件的追查還有這些假訊息、認知作戰還有這些最重要的"},{"start":559.404,"end":585.268,"text":"使用這個VPN的這種匿蹤工具你剛剛講說要查出他的IP位置這些相關都是用這筆預算嘛對不對那這些這個系統限制以後我們預期有哪些類型的案件有沒有評估過我們能夠如何提升我們這個只要是在網路上他整個犯罪的過程有經過網路了其實在這一個後端的分析系統都是一個很強的工具"},{"start":586.168,"end":611.842,"text":"這個部分我是希望說等一下我們如果說進入預算解凍的階段這個大家每一個部分黨派來上來都說要打炸要打炸那我們也通過了這些法源依據也都給了但圖有法源依據你沒有這些相關的不給經費沒有相關的這些設備來執行這個網路流量這個未來這等於是大家都嘴巴講空話"},{"start":612.742,"end":634.75,"text":"所以我希望說等一下在這個預算解凍的時候這個部分大家能夠讓這個相關的這些治安機關能夠順利的來執行那最後我再一點點時間就是我過去一直很關心因為這個也是跟這個案子相關啦我過去一直很關心我們那個2017年2017年我們思改國事會議的時候提出這個應該要設置國家級的政務保管機關那這個國家級的政務保管機關我們現在要做的這個這個"},{"start":642.537,"end":670.743,"text":"這個有關網路的流量記錄的調取他的這些相關這些整合數位證據的這些監管我們要在納入我們整個我剛所講的這個國家級的證據保管中心的這樣的看法之下有沒有我們有沒有制定這些相關的這些內部的資料使用的分析他的資料使用分析跟保存銷毀的相關流程這些相關流程的辦法我們有沒有制定"},{"start":672.546,"end":684.176,"text":"這個就是說將來這個資料的分析這個都是要另狀主義然後這些資料取下來了以後會有一個完整的一個資料的保存的一個相關的規定"},{"start":685.776,"end":704.984,"text":"有一些辦法要訂定啦現在是沒有的我剛講的這些資料如何使用分析如何保存如何銷毀這些相關的執法規定都還沒有這個部分我特別希望這些證據監管的技術標準 集合機制這些我們能夠"},{"start":706.084,"end":719.238,"text":"能夠盡快的先制定這些相關的辦法啦齁那我是希望你們能夠在三個月內針對你們訂定的計畫這個你們要制定的情形齁提交一個書面報告來給我是好不好是好好謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":649,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時57分）主席、各位同仁。今天本委員會安排要處理114年度中央政府總預算有關監察院、行政院人事行政總處、考試院、法務部及所屬主管機關相關的預算凍結案件，我們要來進行討論跟處理，我們就看到在去年預算審查過程中，今天只找四個單位來，預算凍結案就高達39案，監察院1案、人事行政總處7案、考試院8案、法務部23案，總共加起來39案，我只有6加2、8分鐘的時間要討論39案，實在是紙短情長，所以我沒有辦法一個一個來討論。今天非常難得監察院的李秘書長，還有考試院的劉秘書長來到立法院司法及法制委員會，但是很抱歉，今天沒有辦法讓你們上臺，沒有時間，共39案，討論不到你們的案子。","主席，我是不是先請調查局的陳局長？"],["主席（王委員義川代）：請陳局長。"],["陳局長白立：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：局長好。很抱歉，我們今天有39案，但是在39案裡面，有一個案子我個人特別關心，因為這個從立法開始就是我們司法及法制委員會處理，到你們編列預算、到它被凍結、到現在看看能不能執行，這正好是屬於調查局的預算，所以今天就請陳局長上來跟陳局長請教。"],["陳局長白立：謝謝委員。"],["沈委員發惠：這是本委員會負責審查，並在去年7月31號由我們總統公布的通訊保障及監察法修正條文，是去年7月由本委員會通過、總統公告實施的通訊保障及監察法，其中第十四條之一裡面有關網路流量紀錄的系統，第十四條之一第六款有法源依據：「網路流量紀錄系統之設置方式、保存方式、保存期間、查詢之作業程序、調取之項目、監督、費額及其他相關事項之辦法，由法務部會同內政部並會商國家通訊傳播委員會及相關機關定之。」也就是說，這個是法源依據，有關於我們現在要執行網路流量紀錄相關的作業，這個是已經……"],["陳局長白立：目前是有法源。"],["沈委員發惠：對，有法源依據。但是有法源依據，我們必須要有後續的這些預算……"],["陳局長白立：要建置。"],["沈委員發惠：對！相關的設備你要設置啊！不是我有一個法說要保留這些網路流量紀錄，結果不用設備就可以保留嗎？所以接下來，在法源通過、有法源依據之後，我們就應該要儘速地編列跟設置相關設備的經費，在這一次法務部的凍結案裡面，我看到你們書面報告的第二十案，尤其是近日網路的犯罪，可以說它不像傳統的犯罪型態，本來要怎麼樣偵辦這些網路犯罪，就是一個重大挑戰了，所以在這些重大挑戰裡面一些相關的經費，我個人認為是相當的重要。"],["陳局長白立：是、是。"],["沈委員發惠：這樣的經費被凍結、被刪除，我個人都認為，每一個委員不分黨派大家都在這裡喊要打詐、要打詐，大家在很短的時間內就有很高度的共識，通過打詐四法、通訊保障及監察法，給了法源依據，但是在設置相關設備的時候，預算編出來就把你們砍了，有的就砍掉了、刪除了，有的凍結了，像今天我要討論的這個就是凍結的。我知道有一筆，我剛剛講第二十案，它是由調查局來主管，但是我看這整個，它是在一個大計畫……"],["陳局長白立：一個大計畫裡面。"],["沈委員發惠：網路科技運用精進計畫嘛？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這個計畫不是由調查局主政的嘛？"],["陳局長白立：是警政署。"],["沈委員發惠：是警政署主政的，一個大的網路科技運用精進計畫，裡面很小一部分由調查局這邊來執行。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員發惠：我看原本整個計畫的預算裡面，調查局……"],["陳局長白立：今年本來是編5億400萬。"],["沈委員發惠：最早整個計畫當時你們提報的建置費用是12億，最早是12億8,300萬。"],["陳局長白立：是，是分年的。"],["沈委員發惠：對，分年，整個總計畫是12億，但是後來我們因為……後來在最後計畫核定之後降到8億，是不是？"],["陳局長白立：對，後來降成8億。"],["沈委員發惠：最主要的原因是什麼？"],["陳局長白立：因為整個設備還有技術等等的投資，我們也是儘量跟……"],["沈委員發惠：有一些跟外部機關大家共用啦，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：對。"],["沈委員發惠：有一些你原本想投資的設備，後來大家共用了一些設備，所以你們這個計畫從12億8,300萬，但你們在正式核定的時候，其實你們已經調降了……"],["陳局長白立：已經降到最小範圍了。"],["沈委員發惠：調到最小的8億了，那8億裡面你們分年執行，今年114年度的預算是多少？"],["陳局長白立：本來是編5億400萬。"],["沈委員發惠：5億400萬？"],["陳局長白立：但統刪的時候，其實這一筆預算在統刪的時候已經被刪了3,944.8萬了，等於……"],["沈委員發惠：統刪的時候，剩下4億6,455萬，對不對？"],["陳局長白立：對，然後又被凍了2,500萬。"],["沈委員發惠：對，所以我們今天要處理這2,500萬嘛？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這整個建置，大家都在講要打詐，網路犯罪嚴重，但是卻把我們要建置的預算凍結了，現在最重要的是這整個8億的部分到底是要做什麼？"],["陳局長白立：這整個計畫前端是警政署建置的，就是包管，它是把所有三大電信業者這些網路資訊流量，全部通通都儲存起來，我們後端就是去抓那個資料來這邊做分析，這個分析可以讓我們得到什麼？譬如說現在有很多網路的犯罪，它的IP的位置是在哪裡？如果是不同的IP的話，它有沒有勾連到相同的位置等等……"],["沈委員發惠：所以整個是由警政署做，但後端的不只法務部調查局要做啦！"],["陳局長白立：後端分成兩部分，警政署也有做後端的分析，調查局也有做後端的分析，我們就是只取後端分析的那一小部分出來做而已。"],["沈委員發惠：所以後端主要就是……但這個部分，我看到你們有一個電信網路流量紀錄系統的概念驗證，事實上已經發包執行？"],["陳局長白立：對。"],["沈委員發惠：這部分不包括在這個預算裡面？有點像試辦？"],["陳局長白立：沒有，這個等於有點像工程前期的設計規劃。"],["沈委員發惠：你們招標的預算是1,790萬。"],["陳局長白立：那個已經執行掉了。"],["沈委員發惠：已經執行掉了嘛？"],["陳局長白立：對，我們一定要先做一個概念驗證，看看我們這樣子想的，到底實際上能不能做得到，這個概念驗證已經告訴我們說這個是可以的。"],["沈委員發惠：這是可以做到，這次的預算跟之前採購的相比，這個的具體內容及效益如何？有沒有重複投資或資源浪費？我們過去已經跟中華電信執行過了？"],["陳局長白立：沒有。"],["沈委員發惠：那後續的這些，是不是除了中華電信以外，對於其他的電信系統業者，我們也要進行這樣的相關驗證嗎？"],["陳局長白立：不用。"],["沈委員發惠：好，我們這個系統最主要是……剛剛你有強調它是有關這些網路行為的關聯分析、有關一些多重事件的比對，大概就是這些資安事件的追查，還有這些假訊息、認知作戰，還有最重要的，使用VPN的這些匿蹤工具，你剛剛說要查出它的IP位置，這些相關都是用這筆預算嘛？對不對？"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這個系統建置以後，我們預期有哪一些類型的案件？有沒有評估過我們能夠如何提升……"],["陳局長白立：只要是在網路上，它整個犯罪過程有經過網路的，這一個後端的分析系統都是一個很強的工具。"],["沈委員發惠：好，這個部分，我希望等一下如果進入預算解凍的階段，每一個不分黨派的委員上來都說要打詐、要打詐，我們也通過了這些法令，法源依據也都給了，但徒有法源依據，不給經費，沒有這些相關的設備來執行網路流量的紀錄系統，這等於是大家嘴巴都在講空話，所以我希望等一下在預算解凍的時候，大家能夠讓相關的這些資安機關順利的來執行。"],["陳局長白立：是，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員發惠：最後再一點點時間。因為這個也是跟這個案子相關，我過去一直很很關心，2017年司法改革國是會議的時候，提出應該要設置國家級的證物保管機關，這個國家級的證物保管機關，我們現在要做的有關網路流量紀錄的調取，其相關的這些整合數位證據的監管，我們要再納入我剛剛所講的這個國家級的證物保管中心，在這樣的看法之下，我們有沒有制訂這些相關的內部資料使用、分析跟保存、銷毀的相關流程及辦法？我們有沒有制訂？"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，將來資料的分析都是要令狀主義，然後這些資料取下來了以後，會有一個完整的資料保存的相關規定。"],["沈委員發惠：有一些辦法要訂定啦！有一些辦法現在是沒有的喔！我剛剛講的這些資料，它如何使用、分析，它如何保存、如何銷毀，這些相關的子法規定都還沒有，辦法都還沒有。"],["陳局長白立：是，這個都必須要訂。"],["沈委員發惠：這部分，我特別希望這些證據監管的技術標準、稽核機制，我們能夠儘快先制訂這些相關辦法，我是希望你們能夠在3個月內針對你們訂定的計畫，把你們制訂的情形提交一個書面報告來給我，好不好？"],["陳局長白立：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈發惠委員。","接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-16","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","吳宗憲","沈發惠","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra 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這是人民的權益嘛"},{"start":308.666,"end":328.994,"text":"尤其你第一時間還出來發新聞稿說說沒有這件事就那天我是說那天晚上我電話被打爆了就是說東西沒有該怎麼辦事實上那個跟本案完全無關那當天局長也有說啊這個東西不應該出現在現場所以檢察官扣回去了解這個也不是屬於扣押得扣押的理由我們在這邊依法論法"},{"start":330.546,"end":353.163,"text":"不能出現在現場的除非是違禁物你才可以扣回一份合法的公文不管目的是什麼不能扣回那我也跟局長報告以前實務的做法一定是請他帶著當事人帶在身上來做筆錄的時候說明說明完我們覺得合理我們就不會有任何做法這才是目前實務的作風而不是扣回去了"},{"start":354.076,"end":377.391,"text":"然後又然後後來解封發還又不知道有沒有進行合理的程序這是請那個總長因為您是甲官的大家長教育訓練麻煩要做到要製造大家的困擾然後再來我那天有提到一個東西啦就是其實我那天有談到就是有幾位部長還有總統府副秘"},{"start":378.598,"end":407.089,"text":"他們可能有涉犯刑法100那個選罷法104條的案子那我不知道局長你們那邊我那天說告發不知道局長那邊有沒有動作巴委員委員在上次會議的時候有指示那我們有現在目前正在收集這個相關的資料我也進到一個國人的義務那我這邊也在整理會診相關的資料我覺得可以提供那請我去做筆錄也可以所以我想這是一個"},{"start":408.349,"end":423.461,"text":"我在講喔雖然說有人認為我在破壞司法威信但是其實我在拯救司法威信因為司法的平等原則以及司法獨立中立性以及一致性是我們法律人在追求的如果你今天的所作所為"},{"start":425.492,"end":451.249,"text":"美麗島民調出來的那個數字不好看啊然後在最近也有很多訪問我有看了他們對於司法的中立性其實都打出問號的時候這時候我們更希望說有所補救來去讓人民能夠繼續的信任司法所以我再麻煩局長這部分該辦的還是要辦而且這幾位部長他們說的東西像譬如說洪森漢後來他也有來講說是口誤"},{"start":453.01,"end":472.506,"text":"可是你要知道我現在在路上遇到那個霸團拿著麥克風在那邊高喊的他們引用就是這些部長說出來自稱口誤或什麼自稱是我引述的是去年12月的數據這些霸團在引用這個我不忍對那些霸團自稱為公民團體那些民眾我不忍去苛責他們"},{"start":474.397,"end":495.467,"text":"因為他們就是聽這些部長那邊鬼扯蛋亂說話之後的東西拿出來講但是對於這些部長們該究責還是究責因為司法面前人人平等啊我們不分貧富貴賤啊該辦的就是要辦然後我也請問一下那這段時間啊像一百零那個"},{"start":496.977,"end":504.53,"text":"我做違反104條這個假訊息的部分你們是不是也會用選舉查查來核分如果有查辦的話"},{"start":506.21,"end":534.599,"text":"如果是跟那個選舉罷免有關的話我們都是在這個選舉查查的因為上次你有跟我講112年之後用的那一套核分制度每次在選舉的時候都會那其實謝國良他罷免案其實也應該是使用那個112年成立的新的制度但是你們沒有用所以你們沒有這麼做而且那天有跟委員報告你講的這一案當時沒有案地檢署沒有發查"},{"start":535.399,"end":562.097,"text":"不是啦 這就更奇怪您在視訊會議這次有要求大家要趕快去辦這次的幽靈連署但是在謝國良那個案子 您當時又沒有人叫全國的調查官要這麼做所以這個就是司法給人家感覺的另外一個雙標所以我覺得司法就是前後沒有一致啦所以現在讓我一個感覺就是罷綠的就是槍斃 罷藍的都不斃 都沒事啦現在給我一個感覺 不會有這種狀況我們不分藍綠"},{"start":565.279,"end":584.532,"text":"最近還有發生一件事情跟局長跟總長報告就是現在又有人在談那個簡訊的問題有很多地方都收到很多簡訊說請大家去罷免連署那這個部分請問你們有沒有開始去調查因為人民開始在質疑了那我不知道兩位有沒有在調查好吧 那沒有的話那我想跟各位報告一下"},{"start":592.27,"end":617.717,"text":"雖然電信業者說這個是供企業商務使用但是什麼時候變成拿來可以做政治聯署使用這個企業上面要不要處罰NCC也不見了所以這是我一直覺得還是做任何事情都雙標然後那這些民眾他的資訊他的個資被拿去這樣使用你們有沒有去調查"},{"start":618.953,"end":642.546,"text":"那有沒有用選舉查查來合分我不知道你們有沒有這麼做然後另外其實最近有很多人討論到霸統為什麼這麼有錢可以在有線電視花三分鐘四分鐘去拍播放一個廣告可以到處霸免戰到處什麼LED的車子然後到處激發這些傳單錢從哪裡來這也是國人的一個問號嘛"},{"start":648.052,"end":664.263,"text":"那會不會是境外勢力送來的錢這個也是我們擔心的那尤其是罷免對國家安全是有影響的啊對整個社會的安定是有影響那為什麼好像也都不當一回事這個就是我個人覺得"},{"start":666.924,"end":679.394,"text":"這就是一個雙標嘛那我不管怎麼樣我個性我就是忠於這個國家我不忠於任何一個政黨國家一定是放在我所屬的政黨之前我忠於這個國家所以是不是麻煩總長局長"},{"start":681.963,"end":711.283,"text":"你們也要去查辦這個啊 至少你要告訴國人沒有違反個資法嘛你要有一個結論出來也可以 但是不能不查嘛那104條那個也要麻煩你們真的都要做到啦 不能很多事情遇到立場不同 狀況就不一樣那現在喔 因為新北 雙河 新店板橋 淡水 還有平鎮 龍潭 台中都有收到這個簡訊這不是沒有 這是一件已經存在的事實 好不好這部分 麻煩你們一定要做到"},{"start":712.684,"end":735.123,"text":"然後最後我還是要再提醒一個啦一階的連署根本沒有違反那個選舉罷免法很多人講翁小林委員立了一個法砸自己的腳那個是對於法律完全不理解因為一階就沒有那個選罷法98之二的適用"},{"start":736.536,"end":763.339,"text":"所以在沒有選罷法適用的情況下你們用選舉查核分這就是我原本不理解的一個地方第二個跟選舉有關的好像像你說不實訊息這幾位部長發布的不實訊息然後在罷免的活動上面這樣講這反而跟選罷法有關卻沒有人管再來局長你也知道您是國安站出來的"},{"start":764.609,"end":787.43,"text":"資安等於國安那這些簡訊為什麼可以這樣發這個有沒有資安上的問題這應該是調查局非常重視的一件事啊那也都沒有查那我點出這東西其實我一直在講啦我就包括總長我也跟您報告不要說我在傷害司法的威信我是在我是希望能夠維護司法的尊嚴維護司法的威信"},{"start":789.443,"end":811.539,"text":"司法的平等原則這個是最基本的所以當你在辦這一群人的時候大家質疑說為什麼只辦這一群人那是不是我們可以努力再平衡一下那當我提出事實的時候反而是說我在破壞司法威信為什麼點出事實呢是在破壞司法威信因為我今天喉嚨比較沒聲音那我就質詢到這邊謝謝吳宗憲委員你敢不敢講兩句啊那算假講"},{"start":817.567,"end":819.837,"text":"因為境外勢力確實可以好好查一查 查出來剛好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":618,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時44分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長、檢察總長，還有調查局局長。"],["主席：請鄭部長、邢檢察總長，還有陳局長。"],["吳委員宗憲：三位早。我想請問有關這次解凍的部分，因為我之前一直有在詢問AI解凍的專案報告，我看到這次法務部的報告並沒有你們使用的數據，過去三年總共花了3,169萬，我也有要求要有滿意度報告，我現在都沒有看到，我想請問一下你們有沒有準備？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，因為114年「新世代智慧檢察AI科技計畫」目前正在招標中，所以第一季我們還沒辦法提供這個數據。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為這個在你們這次報告第3頁裡面只有半頁，但是這是已經花了三千多萬的計畫，所以我要瞭解一下它的滿意度到底是怎麼樣，還有你只有說成功率是多少，但是你並沒有告訴我，大家使用的比率是多高，我想這個也很重要。因為我聽到很多檢察官覺得這不好用，都不想用，當然我可以理解一個新的系統剛開始一定使用率不高，但是你們有沒有去研究一下要怎麼樣讓檢察官的使用率能夠變高？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，剛才委員關心的使用次數，就使用率跟滿意度的部分我們會做調查，因為上一次是一個輔助系統，大家的反映比較不滿意，就像委員所講的，還有可以再優化的地方，所以這一次的科技計畫就是在優化處理，目前就是在優化的階段，在招標研發的階段。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝部長，導入人工智慧協助檢察官辦案或製作書類，我絕對是完全支持的，但是數據要給我，只要是好的東西，對檢察系統好的，我們在預算上面一定都會支持，你的數據要給我，我們研究一下，沒有問題，我們這邊一定會配合法務部的要求，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：麻煩部長，數據要給我。因為總長很難得來，我也幫人民詢問總長還有局長幾個問問題，因為立法院的委員對於所謂偵查不公開的範圍，從來沒有研究偵查不公開作業辦法，他們都搞不懂，所以我們在這裡很常遇到委員動不動就說「你幹嘛干涉個案、你幹嘛破壞偵查不公開」，我想我也懶得跟這些委員從法制面去討論。","請教總長，因為最近我們發現有檢察官在偵辦個案的時候，我們不談哪個地檢，我們不談個案，他把跟本案無關的證物一起帶回了，而且是用扣押的方式帶回。我先跟總長報告，我自己在辦偵查案件的時候，如果有一個東西我覺得奇怪，但是它跟本案無關，也不是違禁品，也不是另案應扣押之物，我絕對不會扣押，我會請他帶著來跟我製作筆錄的時候，我問他這個東西是怎麼回事，這是實務的作法，我想總長一定很清楚。但是我們發現有檢察官把非本案的證物扣回去了，也不是違禁品，也不是另案的證物，這個跟我國的扣押制度完全不符，到目前為止，他都沒有給我們一個合理的說法，請問總長，你認為我剛剛講的本案應扣押的證物、他案應扣押的證物、違禁品或應沒收之物這四種以外，還有其他的扣押目的嗎？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：據我們瞭解，這個案子宜蘭地檢署已經發表新聞稿了，他們是依照法院核發的搜索票……"],["吳委員宗憲：不、不、不，它沒有在搜索票內，你不能再扯法院核發。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：如果有一些其他的物品，他們也依規定來發還了，它的新聞稿應該講得很清楚。"],["吳委員宗憲：總長，沒關係，我在這邊跟總長報告一下，就是總長是不是再跟其他檢察官說明一件事，就我剛剛講的那四種得扣押之外，都屬於不得扣押之物，這是人民的權益，尤其你第一時間還出來發新聞稿說沒有這件事，那天晚上我的電話被打爆了，說東西沒有該怎麼辦。事實上，那個跟本案完全無關，當天局長也有說這個東西不應該出現在現場，所以檢察官扣回去瞭解，這個也不是屬於得扣押的理由，我們在這邊依法論法，不能出現在現場的，除非是違禁物，你才可以扣回，一份合法的公文，不管目的是什麼都不能扣回。我也跟局長報告，以前實務的作法一定是請當事人帶在身上，來做筆錄的時候說明，說明完我們覺得合理，我們就不會有任何做法，這才是目前實務的作風，而不是扣回去了，後來解封發還又不知道有沒有進行合理的程序，因為總長是檢察官的大家長，教育訓練麻煩要做到，不要製造大家的困擾。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：是，我會轉達。"],["吳委員宗憲：再來，我那天有提到一個東西，其實我那天有談到有幾位部長，還有總統府副秘，他們可能有涉犯選罷法第一百零四條的案子，我那天說要告發，不知道局長那邊有沒有動作？"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，委員在上次會議的時候有指示，我們目前正在蒐集相關的資料。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我也盡到一個國人的義務，我這邊也在整理彙整相關的資料，我絕對可以提供，請我去做筆錄也可以，雖然有人認為我在破壞司法威信，但是其實我在拯救司法威信，因為司法的平等原則以及司法獨立、中立性以及一致性是我們法律人在追求的。如果你今天的所作所為，美麗島民調出來的那個數字不好看，最近很多訪問我也有看了，他們對於司法的中立性都打出問號的時候，這時候我們更希望能有所補救，讓人民能夠繼續地信任司法，所以我再麻煩局長，這部分該辦的還是要辦。而且這幾位部長說的東西，譬如洪申翰後來也有講是口誤，可是你要知道我現在在路上遇到的那些罷團拿著麥克風在那邊高喊，他們引用的就是這些部長說出來自稱口誤或自稱我引述的是去年12月的數據，這些罷團在引用這個，對那些罷團或自稱為公民團體的那些民眾，我不忍去苛責他們，因為他們就是把這些部長在鬼扯淡、亂說話之後的東西拿出來講。但是對於這些部長們該究責還是要究責，因為司法面前人人平等，我們不分貧富貴賤，該辦的就是要辦。","然後我也請問一下，這段時間違反第一百零四條假訊息的部分，你們是不是也會用選舉查察來核分，如果有查辦的話？"],["陳局長白立：如果是跟選舉罷免有關的話，我們都是在選舉查察的這個……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，因為上次你有跟我講在112年之後用的那一套核分制度嘛？"],["陳局長白立：對，每次在選舉的時候都會……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，其實謝國樑的罷免案也應該適用112年成立的新制度，但是你們沒有用，所以你們沒有這麼做，而且……"],["陳局長白立：那天有跟委員報告，你講的這一案當時沒有案，地檢署沒有發查。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是啊！這就更奇怪，您在視訊會議有要求，大家要趕快去辦這一次的幽靈連署，但是在謝國樑那個案子，當時又沒有人叫全國的調查官要這麼做，這個就是司法給人家感覺的另外一個雙標，我覺得司法就是前後沒有一致啦！現在就讓我有一個感覺就是罷綠的就去槍斃，罷藍的都不必、都沒事，現在給我的感覺狀況變成這樣啊！"],["陳局長白立：不會有這種狀況，我們不分藍綠，這點委員放心。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，最近還有發生一件事情跟局長、跟總長報告，現在又有人在談簡訊的問題，有很多地方都收到很多簡訊，請大家去罷免連署，這個部分請問你們有沒有開始去調查？因為人民開始在質疑了，我不知道兩位有沒有在調查？好吧！沒有的話，我想跟各位報告一下，雖然電信業者說這個是供企業商務使用，但是什麼時候變成拿來可以做政治連署使用？在企業上面要不要處罰？NCC也不見了，所以這讓我一直覺得做任何事情都雙標。這些民眾的資訊及個資被拿去這樣使用，你們有沒有去調查？有沒有用選舉查察來核分？我不知道你們有沒有這麼做。","另外，最近有很多人討論到罷團為什麼這麼有錢，可以在有線電視花3分鐘、4分鐘播放一個廣告，可以到處設罷免站、到處有什麼LED的車，然後到處寄發這些傳單，錢從哪裡來？這也是國人的一個問號嘛！它會不會是境外勢力送來的錢，這個也是我們擔心的，尤其是罷免對國家安全是有影響的，對整個社會的安定是有影響，為什麼好像也都不當一回事？我個人覺得這就是一個雙標嘛！我不管怎麼樣，我的個性就是忠於這個國家，我不忠於任何一個政黨，國家一定是放在我所屬的政黨之前，我忠於這個國家，所以是不是麻煩總長、局長，你們也要去查辦這個啊！至少你要告訴國人沒有違反個資法，你要有一個結論出來也可以，但是不能不查嘛！第一百零四條那個也要麻煩你們真的都要做到，不能很多事情遇到立場不同，狀況就不一樣。現在因為新北、雙和、新店、板橋、淡水，還有平鎮、龍潭、臺中都有收到這個簡訊，這不是沒有，這是一件已經存在的事實，好不好？這部分麻煩你們一定要做到。","最後，我還是要再提醒一個，一階的連署根本沒有違反選舉罷免法，很多人講翁曉玲委員立了一個法砸自己的腳，那個是對於法律完全不理解，因為一階就沒有選罷法第九十八條之二的適用，所以在沒有選罷法適用的情況下，你們用選舉查察核分，這就是我原本不理解的一個地方。第二個，跟選舉有關的，像你說不實訊息，這幾位部長發布的不實訊息，在罷免活動上面這樣講，這反而跟選罷法有關，卻沒有人管。再來，局長，你也知道，您是國安單位出來的，資安等於國安，這些簡訊為什麼可以這樣發？這個有沒有資安上的問題？這應該是調查局非常重視的一件事啊！但也都沒有查，我點出這個東西，其實我一直在講的，包括總長，我也跟您報告，不要說我在傷害司法的威信，我是希望能夠維護司法的尊嚴、維護司法的威信，司法的平等原則是最基本的，當你在辦這一群人的時候，大家質疑為什麼只辦這一群人，是不是我們可以努力再平衡一下？當我提出事實的時候，反而說我在破壞司法威信，為什麼點出事實的人是在破壞司法威信？因為我今天喉嚨比較沒聲音，我就質詢到這邊，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲委員，我想說你感冒了，就少說兩句，你卻多說了。境外勢力確實可以好好查一查，查出來後，剛好結果跟你想像的不一樣，好，請回。","接下來請沈發惠委員質詢，請王義川委員代理主席。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-16","speakers":["莊瑞雄","王義川","黃國昌","吳宗憲","沈發惠","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","陳培瑜","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":69,"meetingDate":["2025-05-12"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於監察院主管預算凍結項目共 1案；二、處理114年度中央政\n府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管預算凍結項目共7案；三、審查及處理114年度中央\n政府總預算關於考試院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案；四、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於法\n務部及所屬主管預算凍結項目共23案","agenda_id":"1144802_00002"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}