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(僅進行詢答)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-14","start_time":"2025-05-14T09:21:54+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-14T09:25:30+08:00","duration":216,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[22,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,23-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.35471875,"end":14.965343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.235343750000002,"end":212.28471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.46596875,"end":216.36846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.729,"end":22.419,"text":"謝謝主席各位委員先進那本席今天要向各位報告人工智慧基本法的立法構想跟目的那這幾年我們親眼見證了人工智慧技術敘述的發展"},{"start":25.42,"end":43.686,"text":"從醫療診斷到智慧交通到教育應用AI已經深入我們的日常生活也正逐漸改變產業運作的模式跟政府治理的邏輯那對於台灣而言AI不只是一項工具更牽動我們的經濟競爭力產業未來乃至國家治理的核心架構但是遺憾的是"},{"start":50.768,"end":78.387,"text":"面对这股改革的浪潮呢我国目前能缺乏整体性的法律制度各部会可以说是多头马车缺乏一致方向政策推动也难以系统化这正是我们推出人工智慧基本法的关键原因那我们立法目标主要有三个层次第一建立国家级的自理原则及核心价值那"},{"start":78.587,"end":97.022,"text":"AI的發展必須建立在尊重人權民主法治保障隱私數位平權問責制度的基礎上那這些價值不只需要法治化更需要作為未來政策的共同原則這也讓我們的法案能與"},{"start":97.822,"end":108.407,"text":"歐盟的AI法案美國的國家人工智慧創新法案以及新加坡日本等國的治理架構接軌那與國際對話而不缺席參與國際對話而不缺席那第二呢明確政府的責任那積極推動AI的發展"},{"start":119.111,"end":137.107,"text":"這部草案要求政府從研發投入法規調試到創新實驗機制風險分級資安防護還有資料治理人才培育及AI素養教育都要有完整的推動架構並針對高風險應用建立可控透明的規範機制強化民眾的信賴那第三點"},{"start":145.674,"end":169.455,"text":"打造可信任的AI應用生態本法進一步要求政府建立責任制度針對AI系統的設計、應用包括標記、揭露、溯源及問責都應該要有清楚的法律依據同時也特別納入勞工權益、文化多樣性與公平保障"},{"start":169.915,"end":182.649,"text":"避免AI技術導入過程當中造成社會的不平衡對弱勢群體的衝擊那本席要強調的是這部法案是為了創新提供規則與信任讓產業能夠在穩定可預期的環境中發展"},{"start":188.075,"end":207.61,"text":"也讓社會能夠放心的迎接技術的變革我相信透過AI基本法的推動能讓台灣在全球AI治理體系之中佔有一席之地也讓國內的AI發展朝向成熟負責任具國際競爭力的未來邁進懇請各位委員支持這項法案謝謝大家謝謝張家俊委員的提案說明"}]}},{"id":"161303","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161303","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971bc6576f95f37fbf4fa35373469a84e2c33ddb152ca8cb0ed855ea099cd124814b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:12:36 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為什麼我們還死抱一個虛幻的一個揮霍家園呢"},{"start":227.09,"end":248.984,"text":"賴總統跟卓院長講的說還要等這個新型的一個核電廠出來之後這個都是因為SM2到現在也還沒有商品化所以最簡單的就是在現有的核二核三廠還有空間地方蓋新的核電廠"},{"start":250.558,"end":260.1,"text":"美國安全的問題美國負責肥料的問題美國負責是美國AIT的處長講的在這樣的情況之下加上在野黨這麼幫忙替你修法了我覺得順順波下下旅吧這麼好的事情結果政府執政黨還是不要我就不懂了所以1000例"},{"start":276.365,"end":299.986,"text":"除非說保證在2028年賴清德總統第一任結束之前不再擋漲電價台電要做出這個保證台電做出這個保證否則一千億我們不可能給第二個剛剛講的任性的這一部分我剛剛講了要花三大家最快九月份才可以看到錢"},{"start":302.229,"end":309.4,"text":"這個釜底抽薪我們開大門走大路就應該怎麼做應該編追加減預算如果編追加減預算我們會期到7月31號"},{"start":318.327,"end":334.874,"text":"編最佳經濟算7月31號錢都進來了你們要的1500億都有了所以我們國民黨的具體主張國民黨的具體主張就是台電1000億除非保證2028年之前不再漲價除非"},{"start":338.652,"end":347.175,"text":"按照順這個水昨天我們通過了修法他就開始要研議和散場除非這兩個條件否則我們沒有辦法支持1500億"},{"start":354.571,"end":365.486,"text":"我們剛剛已經講了絕對支持社會國土安全的韌性但是我們不暫時放在這裡我們希望它變追加預算速度絕對比較快比較快拿到這個錢"},{"start":369.164,"end":387.569,"text":"要拿到這個錢最佳預算不要再感覺說這一次啊便於形式啊透過這個特別條例把刪掉預算通通把它進回來這樣根本觀感不好這兩千一千加一千五兩千五百億我們就主張每一個人發一萬塊的現金這個可以振興內需市場不要看我們第一季哇外銷暢旺"},{"start":397.552,"end":407.776,"text":"可是CPI雖然看起來也不是很高可是人民幣啊東西一直漲便當下面一塊一百塊的便當幾乎都沒辦法吃所以我們的主張就是1000億"},{"start":415.728,"end":430.976,"text":"不要一千五百億不要我們加發每一個人一萬塊的現金這是國民黨的版本非常清楚我再強調一遍耐心計畫我們絕對支持但是我們主張用最佳預算卡結拿到錢因為你特別預算最快九月"},{"start":435.879,"end":439.96,"text":"9月已經休會了那時候會不會審完我都不知道所以這樣子追加預算只要下禮拜提出來很快就可以很快就可以審有台電除了他答應那個條件如果台電答應了我們這個一人一萬塊可以再少一點但是台電如果沒有答應我們就是一人一萬塊"},{"start":462.346,"end":465.357,"text":"有國民黨團主張或做以上的說明請各位指教 請各位支持 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"161300","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161300","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971bba4d1e0f15d5d7c1ebe85dec65e1b6403ddb152ca8cb0ed8c7e4384474ecec015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"09:08:07 - 09:10:07","影片長度":"00:02:00","會議時間":"2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱若華等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n 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如歐盟、美國、加拿大都已經陸續的制定AI相關的法我們希望這樣的法規要強調創新的一個同時"},{"start":53.493,"end":80.295,"text":"更要兼顧人權的一個保障還有風險的一個控管鑒於推動智慧國家的一個關鍵時期維繫國家整體的一個競爭力重要的一個途徑面對人工智慧快速的發展我們需要更有效的建立一個安全倫理人權創新風險管理的一個良善運作環境以及尤為重要的一個現今現在我們想要訂定的一個法規"},{"start":81.016,"end":103.114,"text":"所以落實人工智慧以人為本的一個目標確保國家永續發展特女具在這一次人工智慧基本法的一個草案我們希望條文涵蓋了AI定義當然隱私的保障保護資料管理勞工權益AI平權公私協力國際合作人才培育風險分級應用負責等"},{"start":105.296,"end":118.149,"text":"所以人工智慧基本法的一個基本制定將作為台灣AI發展的一個基本框架為台灣AI產業以及社會發展奠定堅實的一個基礎以上 謝謝好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"161299","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161299","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b14bcff575eeb5c9eebe85dec65e1b6403ddb152ca8cb0ed8e2b1819fafab4f6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:03:15 - 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謝謝代理主席面對人工智慧技術的急劇發展以及全球AI治理與產業競賽的白熱化我有幸在本會期擔任教文委員會的召委並且在4月16號召開立法院首場人工智慧基本法的公聽會邀請產官學研界代表出席我們就法治架構不好意思"},{"start":59.452,"end":81.208,"text":"資料治理AI倫理產業促進與監理機制等核心議題進行深入討論在這場AI的浪潮當中當天與會的每位專家立委和官員都是台灣產業下一批群山的造山者AI將為台灣帶來前所未有的新機會"},{"start":82.449,"end":106.387,"text":"而其中的關鍵就掌握在我們每一個人的手中我們每個人都是下一個AI世代的Team台灣在公聽會當中多位與會專家針對開放資料的議題提出關切根據OpenAI所公布的資料該公司每年至少耗費數億美元從新聞出版商、媒體資料庫"},{"start":108.088,"end":131.622,"text":"購置內容取得內容來訓練AI模型AI新創公司Anthropic執行長則認為2027年AI模型的訓練成本可能將高達1000億美元這個預算規模遠遠超出許多的數學科學技術的研究機構非營利組織跟新創公司可以負擔的規模與範圍"},{"start":133.143,"end":149.278,"text":"因此能夠由國家來建立一個AI資料庫AI訓練資料庫或AI語料的資料庫是促進台灣未來AI產業發展的最佳方案也是必要方案因此在我所提出的草案版本第15條就有針對AI訓練資料的問題"},{"start":152.901,"end":169.461,"text":"主張國家應該建立資料開放、共享以及再利用的機制同時也可以運用加解密的技術來保存資料的隱密性、安全性同時也保存資料的價值傳輸的可能性"},{"start":170.262,"end":195.414,"text":"同時我的草案內容也提到行政院應該成立國家人工智慧戰略特別委員會由行政院院長召集學者專家人工智慧相關民間團體及產業代表相關的機關首長等代表共同協調推動以及督導全國人工智慧事務並訂定國家人工智慧發展綱領以統整跨部會有關人工智慧相關的業務"},{"start":196.354,"end":210.844,"text":"我也主張要在數位平權的前提之下政府要提升人民對於人工智慧的知識與技能促進人工智慧的跨域以及國際合作並且積極運用人工智慧來確保勞動權益"},{"start":215.945,"end":242.808,"text":"此外為了避免AI遭到違法濫用我的草案內容也提到人工智慧應該在以人為本數位平權永續發展以及值得信賴的前提之下遵循自主保密安全包容以及透明的基本原則以保障人民基本權利為首要目標並且避免人工智慧有偏差"},{"start":243.328,"end":270.265,"text":"有歧视有广告不实资讯误导或造假等违反相关法规之情势最后我想要再次强调台湾必须在全球AI晋升当中争取后发先至的领先名次AI基本法的制定不仅关乎产业竞争力也关乎语言文化社会信任科技伦理数位主权的未来"},{"start":270.825,"end":279.214,"text":"唯有以國家力量投入凝聚民間創新能量台灣才能在AI的時代當中佔有一席之地謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16672","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16672","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db03307740e70b09afee90efa99573c34152bdb8234cc31cacd8e7e020bf15b0675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢衝擊強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案」案。\n四、本院委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。\n五、本院委員王美惠等17人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。\n（第一案如未獲議事處來函則不予審查，第二至第五案業經各黨團簽署不復議同意書。）（詢答）\n【5月14日及5月15日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-14","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-14T08:31:27+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-14T15:39:00+08:00","duration":25653,"影片長度":"07:07:33","委員發言時間":"08:31:27 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那就議事錄確定本會議議程為第一邀請環境部部長經濟部勞動部及教育部就我國推動綠色轉型政策相關人才別域發展與產業政策規劃進行專題報告並備諮詢第二邀請環境部部長衛生福利部勞動部經濟部農業部及教育部"},{"start":1918.164,"end":1946.89,"text":"就全火及多火碗機物質管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化物相關管理期請進行專題報告並備諮詢那以上一層採綜合詢答現在就來介紹在場的委員及列席官員我們第一位到的是王振旭王委員第二位是陳昭之陳委員第三位是林月琴林委員"},{"start":1949.3,"end":1976.851,"text":"環境部部長 彭啟明國家環境研究院院長 劉忠勇化學物質管理署署長 謝彥儒企劃變遷署署長 蔡玲怡資源巡防署署長 賴英英環境管理署署長 嚴旭明水質保護師 副司長 楚文帝還有作為規劃師 副司長 溫宣慧"},{"start":1979.954,"end":1992.623,"text":"環境保護師 護士長 呂雅雯大氣環境師 護士長 郭孟雲監測資訊師 護士長 胡明輝經濟部產業發展部署 護組長 周宇鑫政委規劃管理師 專門委員 蘇慧君國營事業管理師 專門委員 黃旭輝標準檢驗局 護組長 鄭慶紅"},{"start":2010.596,"end":2017.804,"text":"謝謝國際貿易署副組長余明芳謝謝能源署副組長鄭如寧謝謝還有美中小企新創企業署副組長施麗麗謝謝勞動部綜合規劃師副市長謝青雲"},{"start":2028.023,"end":2038.993,"text":"農曆發展署主任秘書施署會職業安全衛生署副署長萬榮滬教育部資訊及科技教育副署長邱仁傑"},{"start":2041.534,"end":2059.364,"text":"國民及學前教育署專門委員 薛成佑衛生福利部食品藥物管理署署長 江志剛國健署研究員 麥陽俊農業部動食物防疫檢驗署副署長 杜力華農業藥物實驗所署長 呂水淹還有農能署副署長 饒美菊"},{"start":2069.585,"end":2086.001,"text":"好 謝謝訓務司檢證機政馮怡月謝謝怡月署檢證機政鄭淑文謝謝那接下來我們就來請環境部本部長就本日議程定案報告時間十分鐘好 謝謝"},{"start":2091.55,"end":2107.957,"text":"主席各位委員大家早安還有我代表跨部會來進行這兩份的報告那各位因為我聲音我週末的時候過敏我不是感冒這邊也說明一下那今天比較沒有力所以也請各位多包涵一下下我是過敏這個我平常是敏感體質"},{"start":2108.937,"end":2125.316,"text":"第一個報告的是綠色轉型相關的人力培育發展的報告各位都知道現在全球的關稅政策還是受到很大的影響目前我們還是持續的有這樣的一個信心而且全世界沒有一個國家現在有明顯的一個轉彎"},{"start":2126.377,"end":2143.351,"text":"做一個決定所以目前我們在總統府的氣候變遷對策委員會也特別提到我們還會持續朝向這個目標前進這裡面有一個最大的一個就是擴大綠領人才的培訓的一個量能那根據我們環境部跟這個民間的人力銀行經由大數據去撈"},{"start":2144.252,"end":2168.377,"text":"我們過去在8年當中,大概有1000多家的公司有聘用的綠營人才在去年年底的時候已經到達3600家,那未來還會持續的在增加當中同時僱用的人數已經超過22000多人,這個是wanted的但是我們一般來算的話,可能實際上工作的人數是他的5倍到10倍左右這個要看每一個工作的特性,目前我們還沒有這樣的調查"},{"start":2169.657,"end":2197.953,"text":"但是這個是我們從實際上人力銀行wanted的所以這個是最直接最有效的一個數據那目前我們每半年就會有環境部跟各個部會一起跨部會來公布一個綠領人才的就業趨勢的一個報告下一個報告會在下個月會跟大家公布那現在我們有跨四個部會來進行推動這些事情首先是衛福部會跟我們綠色醫療的永續發展來做結合原民會我們要特別協助原民會特別對於這個自然碳匯"},{"start":2198.613,"end":2224.611,"text":"或是說所謂的原住民的探著產業的相關的人才的培訓那勞動部呢就是所謂的勞工的這個轉職或是增能的發展經濟部呢就是節能人才的培育像這個ASCO等等的我們有四個部會目前都跟我們在洽談當中希望很快的就可以推出來那現在呢我們也會建立一個綠領人才的資訊的平台這個很快的在一個月內大概六月的時候就會統一對大家公布我們會提供"},{"start":2225.131,"end":2248.602,"text":"相關的資源就業的資訊事實的查核國際的薪資因為我記得我去年來的時候很多的委員也提醒我們說坊間有很多這種所謂的非常貴的一個課程造成這個民眾很大的一個困擾所以現在呢由政府出來做基本上可以獲得一定的一個品質也可以擴大人數的一個參與那目前呢我們改變以前的方式以前是有環境部"},{"start":2249.782,"end":2271.181,"text":"國安院來提供的在去年的話培育一千人今年我們跟著大學來合作在北中南東設了一個四個培育中心能夠共同來開而且我們提供教材然後統一的測驗最後呢給他核發證明現在呢我們今年的目標就希望可以到三千五百個人那例如說像這個我們已經跟四個大學台大"},{"start":2272.021,"end":2292.459,"text":"這個中央還有清大還有師大合作昨天也跟這個慈濟大學來合作在東部那目前呢我們總共32所大學跟我們環境部一起合作能夠來推動這個綠領人才的量能也就是說經過學校的這個協助這個量能呢可以很大的一個展開同時呢這個課程呢大概是只有1萬2而已喔48個小時1萬2而且呢我們對於學生30歲以下的這個碩博士生"},{"start":2297.964,"end":2315.109,"text":"或是大學生都是屬於免費半價然後如果是低收入戶是全額的免費這個就是我們對於青年朋友的一個很大的一個照顧所以我們預期未來呢像這樣的一個轉型需要很多的一個技術發展需要打團體戰那我們希望呢搭建這個淨零職場的環境跟人才資訊的平台"},{"start":2317.33,"end":2334.287,"text":"最重要的是說未來呢我們現在這個48小時已經開了3500個人未來呢在這下半年我們會陸續的因為我舉例像成功大學他們有很強的探捕桌跟封存的一個課程所以他們也希望加入我們所以我們會有大概12個小時的真人的課程"},{"start":2334.907,"end":2354.546,"text":"或是說整個生態的綠領或是綠建築等等有不一樣特性的大學它有不一樣的量能就可以來做一個提升所以我們希望藉由這樣的一個方式能夠有更多的一個正能課程也就是幫助年輕人或是幫助各界的勞工在面對氣候變遷這個新的趨勢有一個更好轉型的一個結果這是我第一份的報告"},{"start":2355.728,"end":2376.739,"text":"那第二份報告呢要給大家報告就是所謂的各位最關心的就是PFASPFAS還有相關的這個環境荷爾蒙的相關的一個資訊那我大概呢會有兩個部分喔第一個PFAS的管理行動計畫第二個是環境荷爾蒙的管理計畫那什麼是PFAS呢其實它是一個很複雜的東西它基本上呢是有包含了這個"},{"start":2378.059,"end":2399.114,"text":"一個化學物質的家族的總稱所以它是很複雜的一個化學包含一個全佛甲基還有一個全佛亞甲基就是一般的CF3跟CF2等等那它因為它本身呢它是具有一個持久性而且生物的蓄積性它的毒性還有它的這個遠距離的環境遷移能力它是屬於一種持久性的有機污染物"},{"start":2399.654,"end":2412.833,"text":"所以目前過去在這個斯德哥爾摩公約裡面他就公告了34種物質陸續都在擴大當中而且每年的這個定期的會議裡面都有把它列為公開的一個事項在裡面那我國是在2008年開始"},{"start":2414.696,"end":2422.822,"text":"配合這個是的某公約開始進行的這個有行政院來核定這個國家的這個實行的計畫我們也列管了非常的多項而且呢有7個部會12個22個單位共同來進行合作所以我們目前呢過去就有進行做這個事情那這個合作是怎麼合作第一個要訂定法規第二個要監測我們台灣的是不是相關的環境有受到這個影響另外一個呢就最重要是源頭的管制還有這個使用的替代品"},{"start":2444.016,"end":2459.454,"text":"能夠取代最重要是跨部會的平台能夠來建立這樣的一個機制所以我們在去年呢我本人上任之後我記得我上任第二天5月21號就來立院備詢那也謝謝很多的委員也對於這個議題有很多的指教其中我記得林淑芬委員就這個議題就質詢我半個小時喔"},{"start":2461.656,"end":2482.612,"text":"那是當天我就後來剛好也參加一個瑞典的活動所以我就請了一些國外的專家學者一起來協助來參與所以我們很快的大概在7月1號就匯集一個完成就化學署的能夠來整合各個部會7月1號就送到報行政院來審議去年的10月22號行政院就核定通過我們這個行動計畫來推動而且我們在當中也開了"},{"start":2486.395,"end":2502.251,"text":"一兩次的國家化學物質管理匯報的幕僚會議還有整個大會來進行所以目前呢我們是有12個部會組成這個推動小組跨部會的來推動這樣的一個PFAS的管理的行動的一個計畫那這個裡面呢包含了有幾個策略"},{"start":2503.308,"end":2524.6,"text":"包含了源頭管理流布的掌控國際的接軌還有產業的創新還有風險溝通因為這個東西如果說沒有解釋的清楚會引發社會很大的恐慌那如何找到對的訊息這是很重要的所以目前我們大概把配合這個聯合國式的跟我們公約的列管的進程把PFOS PFOA跟PFHSS"},{"start":2525.78,"end":2554.425,"text":"跟PFAS的列入毒性的管理物质我们根据公约滚动的新增现在共计列管了508种的PFAS那目前呢我们执行的状况呢分为三个阶段第一个阶段呢是在去年以前就是调查国际的动态因为其实国内呢还是有一些单位在使用这个PFAS我们必须要把国内的这个源头的资料能够掌控而且要提升我们本地的一个检测的一个量能那第二个阶段呢就是我们过去这一年多做的"},{"start":2554.805,"end":2574.36,"text":"我們訂定的這個水質的水PFOS的水質標準例如說PFOA PFOS等等要小於50耐克每公升50耐克等等還有一個是70的這個呢就是提升國人已用水的一個安全這個是在今年的這個時候1月的時候公告的那另外一個呢未來就要加嚴因為對於水的這個項目呢我們檢測超標的處罰或是我們要對齊歐美等國這個就是我們現在在做的這個事情"},{"start":2580.765,"end":2608.755,"text":"那所以在這個水污染防治的策略跟檢驗生成的方法我們在1月20號修正的公布了也針對大家關注的一個幾項我們都有提供一個放流水的數值來進行一個規定如果超標的就要提出自主的削減的管理一個計畫讓大家可以知道這個是特別針對科學園區或是這個工業區的專用污水下水道或是相關的一個業者都必須符合這樣的一個規範"},{"start":2610.39,"end":2627.248,"text":"那另外一個呢其他的檢測的部分呢包含河川的底泥還有雨體或是河川的一個水體或是飲用水等等也都有相關的一個計畫包含了土壤及地下水我們針對這個土壤的點維的調查的點次或是事業的放流水我們都開始有針對一些事業體或是這個相關的一個濃度的一個調查"},{"start":2632.193,"end":2654.887,"text":"或是特別針對半導體或是光電業者的放流水都有進行相關的一個檢測那另外一個研發的部分的話未來就趕快進行這個試驗的研究相關的一個整治的技術特別是我們未來也會參佐國外的像美國過去其實有曾經說要訂定很嚴格但是過去因為新的美國環保署長上任之後想要放寬"},{"start":2655.527,"end":2669.799,"text":"但是最近他又提出來說要加嚴所以基本上我們一直在關注國際上相關的一個素質風險溝通的話我們其實很持續的跟大家來報告能夠讓民眾知道對PFAS的認知不要恐慌但是一定要有正確的認知來去面對"},{"start":2670.58,"end":2686.119,"text":"那環境荷爾蒙的計畫其實很早在2010年就開始了我們目前是進到第三期就是2022年到2027年這個是主要是滾動的更新環境荷爾蒙的清單針對敏感族群加強保護跟宣導的工作所以目前我們這個計畫正在執行當中"},{"start":2688.686,"end":2705.752,"text":"所以我們這次的計畫跟往前有點不一樣跨部會的溝通、法律規的修訂、宣導還有滾動式的納管所以這個也是跨部會的有環境部、經濟部等等的共同來執行目前我們也增列了很多源頭的管理"},{"start":2706.472,"end":2722.242,"text":"總共列管了845種毒化物其中有446個是屬於環境荷爾蒙的一個物質在裡面那這個過去我們有針對環境標章的產品環境標章裡面就必須要把相關的環境荷爾蒙列為標準的評估的項目在裡面"},{"start":2722.762,"end":2743.093,"text":"那環境的標準呢也包含了各種的重金屬等等也都把它放進去特別是還有一個檢測的一個標準這個都是我們環境部在推動的一個事情此外呢這個環境的空氣飲用水也都把它納進去相關的一個數值持續的一個監測那事業放流水環境的水體環境的土壤來都有進行做所以最後呢"},{"start":2744.719,"end":2770.942,"text":"這兩個報告包含PFAS管理行動及環境荷爾蒙的宣導其實這個就是保障國人的健康這個裡面的教育宣導是非常的重要的我們會持續的來進行而且呢我們會持續跟歐盟跟美國跟日本先進國家來接軌增進我們對PFAS跟環境荷爾蒙的了解那當然啦這些事情都是要跨部會跨平台來合作我們會把所有的資料現在都已經放在網路上面也公開讓各位可以來批評指教謝謝以上報告"},{"start":2776.28,"end":2780.715,"text":"好 謝謝部長的報告接下來就"},{"start":2785.669,"end":2812.56,"text":"有關於本次會議的各項順便資料 均會列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始來做詢問 做一下宣告第一 本會委員詢問時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加2分鐘 4點半截止 歡迎登記委員如果順便質詢 請於三位前提出 預期不受理那暫列10點半休息10分鐘原則上11點半處理臨時提案10點半截止 收案現在請第一位登記的委員是陳昭志委員來做詢問"},{"start":2817.807,"end":2819.668,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩彭部長你剛剛算是很詳細的討論到PFASFluoroalkylating Substance以下我們就用PFAS來形容它我認為它是一個非常頑固的物質"},{"start":2840.454,"end":2868.437,"text":"所以有人稱它是永久的化學品因為除非在非常非常特定的一個實驗條件下它才可能有一些短鏈被分解否則它就是老死不改變就是在那個地方那現在的問題是很多產業在製程中在各種狀況都會用到它那我先談飲用水剛剛你有提到這個飲用水的部分那就現實來說因為環境部去年11月有公佈飲用水水質的標準修正草案"},{"start":2869.238,"end":2886.664,"text":"那把其中的兩種這個PFAS的組合分別定在每公升每公升50耐克跟這個70耐克那也就是10的-9次方的那個克那我們肯定就是說你們願意納入列管這部分已經有訂出這兩個標準但是我很驚訝的發現強制執行的時間竟然是在2027年7月1號在你們公佈時間大概兩年八個月以後那現在就有個空窗期囉"},{"start":2898.468,"end":2921.329,"text":"那這個空窗期我想請教彭部長跟這個水保署今天來的是副司長那這兩年的空窗期你要怎麼來管理或有效抑制嗎要抑制它嗎因為當然我知道不能一步到位所以你們給了空窗期但這空窗期當中你做要做的哪些事能夠讓這個超標的這個水能夠有一個被抑制的一個情況被控制的一個情況有這個計畫嗎"},{"start":2923.11,"end":2934.018,"text":"報告委員其實現在已經開始在進行就是檢測然後有些超標的我們就要求他提出改善的計畫所以不是說2027才開始現在已經開始在做已經在做檢測但是部長因為過去這個國內部分的淨水廠的檢測值已經有"},{"start":2939.602,"end":2943.405,"text":"超過美國的規範我們現在的那個標準是比美國還寬鬆就是第一點我們比美國還寬鬆第二個我們實行的時間還有兩年多那這個時間國人是會暴露在這個高風險那加上這個民眾如果持續飲用"},{"start":2958.118,"end":2968.483,"text":"高含量的PFAS的水的話那這個健康風險其實是誰來承擔呢那我知道兩位上次是市長跟部長在三月質詢上有提到就是說目前你先不採用罰錢的方法那OK你不採用罰錢的方法是說讓鈔票單位自己來進行通報進行通報那我們當然理解就是說讓業者來承擔這個環境成本的這種有某個程度是壓力我們也不能讓單一的"},{"start":2985.57,"end":3010.309,"text":"單一的部會或是單一的這個一個產業來承擔但是你如果不罰錢但是你當中又沒有一些計畫不管說你是分階段的一些協議計畫還是你加入的輔導等等等等或是怎麼一些公開的資料那怎麼讓這件事來做呢兩年多空中期你現在剛剛你的報告也都聚焦在這裡啊這是一個非常毒啊會致癌啊"},{"start":3010.769,"end":3026.651,"text":"會有很多的問題啊然後他到處在很多的地方啊那這個當中怎麼辦就是在2027年7月1號之前我還是想知道你們做了哪些措施既然不罰錢其實罰錢有時候是不得不的但是又是最有效的方法那你們不罰錢那用道德勸說嗎"},{"start":3027.993,"end":3041.86,"text":"報告委員現在我們檢測出來全台灣的淨水廠裡面大概有2%的確是超過我們之前訂的一個標準所以我們要他們提出一個改善的一個計畫等一下我跟你講食物 食物的比例很高你說這個飲水是2%是嗎2%是淨水廠你們是全面檢測嗎全面檢測 對"},{"start":3048.595,"end":3073.226,"text":"那還有呢就是你們現在就是去先檢測然後檢測發現之後你們現在做法是如何呢雖然那個法案要2027年才生效因為例如說有幾個地方它的PFAS比較高例如說中部或是說有一些機場的旁邊因為機場有很多消防的泡沫消防的泡沫是PFAS過去的PFAS蠻多的地方所以我們現在是源頭阻斷的方式"},{"start":3073.786,"end":3094.017,"text":"他用的就不能再用,如果你這個還沒有新貨進來的話你一定要用廢污水的這個處理的標準來處理這個事情所以你們現在有掌握這些狀況?有有,其實幾個地方都有2023年也不會很久,12月那個IPAN就是國際污染物的消除網他發佈前一年的這個調查結果顯示PFAS會造成很多健康問題"},{"start":3095.697,"end":3119.832,"text":"包括生育率、生殖率下降那假裝腺疾病還有腎臟癌那呼籲各國其實基本上他們是呼籲全面淘汰的那他們調查食品包材當中台灣的檢出率很高你有沒有掌握這個數字雖然樣品數不多但是台灣的檢出率很高我看看你有掌握這個數字嗎有 這個請我們署長好不好檢出率你知道嗎 多少嗎"},{"start":3124.674,"end":3148.632,"text":"實名包材的部分 這個部分是衛福部他們會去檢測但是在我們包材裡面因為PFAS是一個族群禁用的這個部分的話都是禁用的所以當然裡面我們也可能會測出PFAS我想我還是要讓大家所有的線上的關心的都知道我們有八個樣品雖然少但是有七個是檢出的"},{"start":3149.252,"end":3167.009,"text":"有七個超標欸 超標欸不是說檢出了 是超標欸這表示說台灣對食品包材的規範是不夠啊所以監察院才會那麼嚴正的糾正啊提出糾正 它有糾正化管署跟食藥署喔監察院是提出糾正所以我想現在是不是 我先請教一下衛福部好嗎"},{"start":3168.631,"end":3197.09,"text":"這個是您的專長吧 江署長我們的風險評估你一邊聽好了就麻煩做完了嗎你有沒有現在有個明確的限定那個值有沒有這個計畫那你的具體數字啊 食品的包材等等等等因為你知道食品的包材它會隨著溫度跟接觸時間慢慢這個PFAS的那個轉移量會慢慢的增加那食品包材的部分尤其像那個微波的"},{"start":3197.89,"end":3225.744,"text":"爆米花我們這個數字超過歐盟很多倍耶這個很多人吃 電影院根本就是叫人家買這個進去 很多人在吃啊那您有掌握到什麼程度呢 江署長 您是專家喔跟委員這邊做進一步報告因為我們也在PFARS的議題上面跟整個環境部這邊整個跨部會裡面的合作底下我們環境部公告的 目前公告的不可使用的嚴禁的部分 陸陸續續從"},{"start":3227.165,"end":3242.326,"text":"對 你要做評估啊 我們有做評估這部分的評估的部分呢 我們其實環境的批發物資呢 皆不得在我們現在的容器包裁完全是都不行 如果使用就會違法 違反食安法所以你的限職是零檢出嗎"},{"start":3243.571,"end":3256.04,"text":"呃 它是因為它在環境裡面已經存在我們曾經很高欸 比人家還高欸對 所以它會有一些背景值的部分這是由你來設定的喔 是藥署來設定他們才去做集合啊 做檢測對 我們最後有禁用的部分我們就不再使用有資料了嗎 有標準了嗎 這個你確定了嗎"},{"start":3258.642,"end":3280.151,"text":"這部分我們就是檢測的時候我們持續在研議因為它還有一些變異的部分那署長就請你加快腳步啦因為這當中空窗期嘛大家都很擔心已經知道這麼毒了那就謝謝署長那我再請教這個環境部那你們這個管理行動計畫我知道你剛剛有唸到說有跨12個部會已經做了一些事情那你有沒有進行全國的盤點"},{"start":3281.551,"end":3293.181,"text":"因為國會到底哪些業者使用然後會放出哪些PFAS那監察院都會覺得你們有點當然之前戴護職守那你要點名多久呢監察院都已經提出糾正案了"},{"start":3293.895,"end":3311.794,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們對於剛剛部長有提到我們跟著公約的這個列管的物質我們持續都是掌握住所以對於公約已經有開始去進現用或者研究我們會不會拿進來在我們的調查清單裡面我現在重點是說就算其他的國家標準不一台灣還是這樣可以做啊是"},{"start":3312.295,"end":3329.234,"text":"不是要等著別人看在根本報告就是已經接了我們會跟上在5月13我們全部再把它公告另外一個是說在國際還沒有列管可是在我們台灣有的也可以做有將近300種那我想先請教食品的包產你認為是不是可以是可替代的"},{"start":3329.634,"end":3344.661,"text":"你要先認定你就才會去做啊當然是可替代啊可替代你認可替代那你是不是開始要去禁止或是優先優先去禁用然後你要幫他們找或是建一些可替用的這個包材嘛有目前國內其實也有這個產業界可以有生產這個替代因為PFAS進入人體的方式途徑很多元嘛"},{"start":3347.602,"end":3376.963,"text":"那工廠排放的水也是一個嘛所以我剛剛你也報告那個部長也報告說那就是說以市長來說你是有支持那個排放那個放流水這個放流水也要納入這個總有濾因為問題來自這個伏過去是濾是一個大澳新的毒那伏就是這次的那個PFAS你要不要同意納入這個標準呢總含伏濾要納入標準呢對已經納入了有納入那你的標準是比其他國家是"},{"start":3378.903,"end":3406.668,"text":"更嚴格嗎我跟委員報告我們的標準我們是目前各國都還沒有定相關的標準那我們有定PFOA PFOS跟PFHX然後我們是參考國外的這個地面水體的水質標準然後以稀釋10倍的這樣子一個基準值要求業者來進行就是檢測申報如果超過我們這個基準值我們會邀請他提改善計畫"},{"start":3407.248,"end":3433.705,"text":"因為之前你們有點配合自來水公司有點延後讓他延後去處理這件事情啦那才被糾正啊 才被這個監察院糾正啊如果說覺得說少一事就是比較OK的那這樣的話永遠就不會進步啦根本報告補充一下就是說對於這個事業放流水這部分我們也是很重視可是全世界在這個放流水當中還沒有訂定這方面標準所以我們事實上已經先開始一步了"},{"start":3434.871,"end":3463.197,"text":"那我希望我們這個管理架構要現在是目前是集中在這個飲用水跟這個部分個別原料的這個部分列管那我剛剛也聽到說你跨部會這個部分已經啟動了那環境部你要負責毒物嘛這個還有化學物質的那個主則機構所以你應該要主導就是這個政策是要主導這個角色那剛剛你們對針對非必要用途的部分要把它辨識出來那辨識出來以後就是你要去找能夠去比較安全的替代的"},{"start":3463.717,"end":3481.147,"text":"替代的產品這個東西就是要趕快來做這個就是說整個是不要讓民眾在這個空窗期成為政策的這個犧牲的對象被犧牲對象那那個歐洲的環境署上個月底發布PFAS的那個是他是要全面生命週期的管理"},{"start":3482.508,"end":3499.298,"text":"因為它整個過程像化工、紡織、食品、電子、醫產它都用到從生產到製成到廢棄的時候大概都可能對人體產生這個風險所以它不是單一的問題所以是不是全程整個源頭的管理你們的部分是要做到這個"},{"start":3499.858,"end":3524.383,"text":"沒錯我們也都是follow這個歐盟尤其我們跟瑞典都有一個合作的關係我們有一群同仁5月就會到瑞典化學集他們9月會來所以我們都是掌握這個歐盟的進展所以一萬多種他是有一個很長的一個管理期程那他會分優先順序比如說有替代品的就優先那其他的就有一個時程這樣改善我們會跟著他的腳步來走"},{"start":3525.233,"end":3532.418,"text":"主席我可以再一兩分鐘嗎因為台電大甲溪光明秋旭水利發電這個計畫現在有很大的問題這項計畫是利用大甲溪德基水庫為上池谷關的水庫是下池它搭配了一個滿長10公里的這個隧道頭水隧道那它整個總裝置的容量大概610MW而且大概供給10年但是問題是"},{"start":3550.251,"end":3555.434,"text":"當地住民反對 環團反對 許多關心中衡的國人也反對但是環境部都視而不見 你終於進行了二階的環評那環評雖然要求再補正 包括這個工程的淨流放廢水還有這個邊坡的滑落對水庫淤積跟水溫地質的影響那還有衍生土石放的問題 我覺得會放水的理由是因為德基跟谷關之間的地質脆弱"},{"start":3575.126,"end":3604.105,"text":"地質脆弱中衡交通不便問題這個非常重要可是你們都沒有注意到這件事情部長我先給你看一個圖你看這個圖真的會嚇到部長你看這個報導2024年聯合報做的中衡修復專題報導他清楚的提到目前的中衡變道有特別容易特別容易落實極重的地方就是這段谷關道德基這段也就是台電這次要搞的這個光明殿堂水利抽蓄的這個兩大水庫間的路段你看這個圖"},{"start":3605.766,"end":3627.477,"text":"這個圖在大甲溪中橫階段多脆弱啊有武陵斷層跟青山斷層兩大佞城在這個地方那這個問題經濟部看不到 台電看不到那我想環境部的環評委員也沒看到我知道你最不好說那幾位啦 不要當經理那我現在告訴你 你面對經濟部的時候 腰桿要挺直最後一張我告訴你 他們內行人自己講的"},{"start":3628.517,"end":3655.451,"text":"台電的這個主角大甲溪發電電廠他採訪時說了什麼災後遭遇沖行不便使電廠的維修跟日常運作做到阻礙他繼續他講了實話出來那現在台電硬要跟老天爺爭地在這個最脆弱的土質最脆弱的地方繼續開發然後挖隧道然後要去做這個水利抽搐工程那環評會講話了嗎你這一屆的環評會很奇怪就很多資料他都不管部長"},{"start":3657.072,"end":3686.003,"text":"要挺直腰桿啊現在是要求他們提出地質還有生態的相關資料很危險喔有叫他們要提出補正後再審所以還沒有過還在審查的階段我認為對你最大的期待還是在經濟部是負責開發但你做環評的部分是保護人民保護國土所以我希望你挺直腰桿面對好嗎那也請你的環評委員會要公正不能只做護航好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝陳委員部長要挺直腰桿"},{"start":3687.023,"end":3710.82,"text":"環境部要保護部長的身體,現在部長有敏感室內的CO2又1068ppm這對敏感的部長身體會有傷害接下來請委員來做詢問好,麻煩我們的部長請部長李委員好部長早"},{"start":3712.662,"end":3735.279,"text":"今天想來問一下 因為今天談的很多主題 事實上是都跟兒少有很大的關係所以還是要來問一下 因為我覺得環境權本來就是孩子很重要的一個權利26號意見書也講得非常的清楚 所以我們就繼續來談這個課題也就是說 部長 我覺得盡力不疑弱任何人這句話"},{"start":3736.035,"end":3765.078,"text":"我相信部長一定知道這是公正轉型很重要的一個核心概念那透過幾次質詢大家很肯認部長已經意識到兒少參與非常的重要那當然我有想部長你應該也知道上週才剛判決的台灣第一起的那個氣候訴訟其中一個關鍵的爭議點就是在於脆弱族群怎麼認定從氣候調適到公正轉型怎麼辨識這些高風險最容易被忽略的人"},{"start":3766.385,"end":3788.446,"text":"評估影響衝擊還有配套怎麼做這些都是環境政策不能閃避的議題所以想問部長在強調不疑若任何人的政策方向上這些最難在政策制定過程當中發生最容易被排除的人你們是怎麼去讓他參與瞭解需求而且確保他們不疑若"},{"start":3790.85,"end":3807.723,"text":"謝謝上次委員的這個質詢那經過這一個多月我們一直想辦法所以目前我們最新的辦法跟委員報告一下就是說我特別找了內政部的統計處跟我們從資料治理的角度來看因為例如說像這個脆弱的族群不管是兒少或是年長者"},{"start":3808.504,"end":3837.771,"text":"他到底人在哪裡我們不知道或是有多少人我們政府有多少的資源可以做所以我們現在呢正在組成一個團隊當中那我們也開過會了所以我們要針對族群有多少然後把它撈出來我們要個案的試了一個一個來做輔導所以這個是我目前進行的一個方式好 部長的確上次在我質詢之後我也很看到就是你們把社會福利的需求去考量所以呢就有一個對那個"},{"start":3838.345,"end":3851.251,"text":"抗高溫的對策聯盟邀請第一線的專業社福團體參與那很開心你能這樣子做可是我要特別強調是這個參與不能只是開一次的記者會或開個論壇"},{"start":3854.161,"end":3868.259,"text":"就算了像這樣子的話根本沒有辦法達到失職的效益在你去參考美國紐約他們的長期的氣候計畫裡面他們是以成立氣候正義工作小組的方式進行脆弱群體跟議題的盤點"},{"start":3869.801,"end":3884.335,"text":"小組裡邊也同樣有來自社福庇護系統多元族群的代表所以想問部長你這個抗高溫聯盟社福團體的參與機制是什麼你能不能承諾不是點綴而是實質的參與而且有政策影響力的參與"},{"start":3885.416,"end":3909.257,"text":"報告委員其實我們這次做就是從實務站做因為各位我們過去台灣對於這種調試計畫很多沒有一個實際上務實的落地所以委員你提的這個建議把這個兒少的相關的族群納進去我會再來檢視一下我們有沒有納進去我也跟委員承諾絕對不是一個辦記者會或煙火式因為我們希望有行動延續到明年可以做得更好"},{"start":3909.857,"end":3924.957,"text":"對 部長我剛剛講抗高溫對策聯盟 當時事實上是我是為了攝服他們有非常多像無家者 或者是安置機構 或者事實上是攝服機構他根本就是沒有辦法去應對這個高溫這一塊"},{"start":3928.081,"end":3945.172,"text":"所以也希望你還是希望你在針對於不是一次性的會議能夠比照美國紐約這樣的方式針對於社福或庇護系統的或多元族群的代表都要納入可能不是只有兒少另外我就想來跟部長討論一下環境部事實上有一個人權委員會那這個會議兒少的參與狀況我想問部長"},{"start":3949.034,"end":3973.025,"text":"一年兩次會議而且只有一個代表我不知道這個代表怎麼來的而且很單薄的那你覺得這樣子能夠協助你完整的掌握環境政策當中下一個世代的觀點嗎因為這個會議而造異見的回應跟列管情形是如何我覺得部長你可不可以做回應這個請問副市長因為我還沒有開過這個會不好意思"},{"start":3976.559,"end":3986.913,"text":"謝謝委員有關於這個環境部人權小組部分呢我們現在目前就是有陳兒少的委員來參與除此之外我們有其他的一些相關的諮詢會議也會邀請我們這個行政院的相關的兒少的團代表來給我們一些諮詢"},{"start":3996.731,"end":4016.148,"text":"我覺得第一個我真的是覺得很擔保還有依據公約對兒少參與應該要有一些友善措施所以想問就是說那樣的因為有時候他們在一些環境裡面你要叫他們表達他跟成人委員在一起甚至有時候成人委員有時候我們自己在看以前我在"},{"start":4016.948,"end":4044.688,"text":"不會去參與或在行政院參與的時候很常甚至地方很常會成人委員很沒禮貌的打斷他們或者是對他們不友善或對他們提出的一再質疑所以我想問問你們的友善參與程度是什麼有沒有主動去培力這些兒少怎麼去應對甚至他有沒有有機會去諮詢到一些你們特定可以協助的人還有一些討論的窗口還是收到開會通知單就自己消化然後來開會"},{"start":4047.172,"end":4061.54,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們跟兒少的委員有非常密切的一個互動如果他有需求的部分我們都會跟他們做一個回覆另外呢除此之外不只是在人權小組會議之外我們有相關的一些像法令的這個研修的部分我們也會有徵詢這個兒少的相關的意見所謂參與權是要先賠利他們然後呢"},{"start":4072.006,"end":4096.946,"text":"要有善的環境聽取他們的意見然後呢等到他們表達意見的時候你們還要能夠去回應他們我也希望這個人力太少以外還有一個我希望你們做到這幾個原則再來想問一下延續剛剛我們討論的兒少跟青少年的參與問題因為除了環境部的人權委會我更擔心的是現在你們針對兒少跟青少年的參與"},{"start":4097.526,"end":4120.254,"text":"大概都是停留在一次性的活動的層次所以去年10月份環境部舉辦了今年參與氣候變遷的政策的工作坊那個青年明確的指出說現在參與方式零碎然後缺乏持續性沒有制度化的可以溝通的一個管道所以你剛剛才會講說我一次有時候偶爾去邀請政院"},{"start":4121.134,"end":4144.953,"text":"對他們來講就是來參加一次那11月我也參加了你們所謂的未來世代的論壇當中青少年也表達希望能夠積極參與政策想透過教育行動跟國際交流一起面對我們的氣候危機不過想問部長他們都講了可是你們似乎還是一樣就是都停留在至少我看到去年都是一次性的活動"},{"start":4145.773,"end":4151.778,"text":"那他們也提到說他們想參與政策我想部長你們後面到底有沒有準備要讓他們參與啊"},{"start":4153.135,"end":4174.061,"text":"報告員的確因為我自己年輕的時候也參與過很多的活動那我必須我的觀察來看的話政府對於青年的這個銜接因為青年的這個變動性流動率都蠻快的所以與現在政府的體制去跟年輕人對接的確是有一定的難度那委員再給我一點時間我去盤點因為我們最近青年圓夢計畫我們環境部有"},{"start":4176.041,"end":4205.091,"text":"有很多的名額去幫年輕人去一起合作我們有一個旗艦那裡面就有很多年輕人是做永續就氣候相關的我們發現那個互動就會不一樣所以委員再給我們一點點時間我找到一個更好的因為他們也來跟我表示說這樣的參與權是假的而且是利用他們來做裝飾品這個很不應該那再加上今天談的這麼多主題我非常相信孩子講的這個地球未來是他們要在這邊生活"},{"start":4206.328,"end":4220.854,"text":"大人們你的所有不好的政策沒有提前讓他參與可是這個地球是未來他們要生活那地球就是他們的生存發展很重要的一個環境結果我們留給他的到底是什麼所以為什麼會在今天要討論這麼多主題來跟你討論這個問題"},{"start":4223.031,"end":4239.564,"text":"主要就是這樣就如果你們都不讓他們去參與去了解甚至我自己這麼七八年在跟兒少代表接觸他們幾乎對於環境的這一塊相對於國外真的是很弱為什麼因為我們國家沒有特別去賠利他們比較關心的是教育"},{"start":4240.617,"end":4257.698,"text":"再來次關心的是交通 因為那跟息息相關 可是環境部息息相關嗎 息息相關 可是似乎我們環境部已經成立了 可是也沒對這一塊多做一些什麼事情 甚至他旁邊也提出來說他需要了解參與的困難 甚至體制化怎麼去參與的管道"},{"start":4258.223,"end":4271.572,"text":"而定期要舉辦固定的窗口列館而是要參與賠利這是當天他們提出來的我也不知道後來想問他都告訴你們他們要怎麼參與了可是似乎這個到底這些解方已經給你們你們有沒有做"},{"start":4273.742,"end":4292.799,"text":"這個我回去再來檢討一下好不好這個的確是一個我們關切的議題這個其實在聯合國的氣候會議裡面每次青年都有一個很大的論壇來討論那目前在國際的組織有建立這個平台是比較順暢的那臺灣我必須我的觀察是的確是比較零碎的郭先生我要提醒你因為"},{"start":4293.499,"end":4309.95,"text":"明年就要交國家報告了CRC兒權公約第三次要審查在2027可是明年就要交國家報告你們事實上從2017年他就強烈的在提醒你們那也叫你們說要把兒少所帶所表示的意見納入適當的立法跟行動當中"},{"start":4311.551,"end":4326.442,"text":"那可是你們竟然回答的是說要引導民眾關心自己的環境權跟了解所有所處的環境的品質你們2017年這樣回答那當然當時事實上是環保署那我們再來看你們2022年的回答下一頁"},{"start":4330.466,"end":4345.518,"text":"2022年人家的結論性意見第二次來審查的時候他也是再次的提醒你們可是似乎你們只有針對第一項有回答第二項第三項一樣的他期待還是要有保有有效的參與"},{"start":4346.86,"end":4373.285,"text":"要兒少有效參與可是截至到去年管考的時候你還是不理會這個兒少的參與那我就不懂就是說已經都一直不斷的每一次國際委員來審查的時候都再度的提醒似乎環境部好像都沒有針對甚至他也期待說已經在2022年的時候他已經預期他的26號一般性意見書會出來他已經指引出來希望你們盤點整個的"},{"start":4375.771,"end":4395.008,"text":"相關的法規目前 好沒有那我上次在質詢的時候也提醒你們不過你們竟然送給我的東西竟然事實上是我叫你們要針對於環境部所有的法規有沒有符合兒權公約的時候你們給我的事實上是空污相關的法規跟改善的措施來回應我"},{"start":4395.635,"end":4403.563,"text":"難道兒少只有面對空污的相關法規嗎那CRC他也非常清楚的說你怎麼去盤點先初步篩檢界定範圍收集證據然後審視兒童參與的狀況還有評估影響"},{"start":4408.403,"end":4429.945,"text":"結論跟建議也要持續追蹤我希望你們接下來按照這個來操作也建議你們邀請專家學者公民團體跟青少年一起來做盤點的工作而不是閉門造句也不是走形式的塞法條給我這樣子的話我覺得我要看空污的法條做什麼我要的是你們整個去盤點所有的這樣子的一個機制"},{"start":4430.565,"end":4456.707,"text":"這才會是最理想的以上 謝謝委員 我會列入考慮我們會來進行 著手進行這個工作再麻煩部長 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝林委員接下來請陳清輝委員來做選檔謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員還有官員我請環境部部長來 請平部長"},{"start":4462.206,"end":4489.783,"text":"部長好第一個我想先關心就是許多醫療體系最近很在意的議題因為大家都知道說這個碳排查的問題是醫療體系佔排放量很大宗嘛是超級碳排的大戶那目前知道衛福部已經有26家的部立醫院已經完成碳排查了但說實在的是很多這個醫護人員跟我反映的他們其實平常業務真的是非常的繁忙但他們還需要再另外派人"},{"start":4490.403,"end":4516.369,"text":"去學習所有的這些的知識那我知道說你們未來預計呢要再做23家醫學中心的攤盤查可是對於資源相對比較低像現在人力比較缺乏健保的點值也受到很多限制的區域醫院還有地區醫院他們會希望爭取更多的資源來支撐不知道這方面你有沒有辦法做協助呢"},{"start":4517.057,"end":4543.51,"text":"報告委員因為我所知道是衛福部醫事司大概一年兩千萬來做這個協助這個碳盤查這個工作但是以我們環境部的認知其實因為第一個醫院我們不會收他碳費所以基本上醫院應該是主動的去節電做這個ASCO相關的節電這個比做碳盤查來得更實際一點點所以包含像長庚醫院他就非常的認真那但是有些醫院我剛剛講的是區域醫院那不是區院對"},{"start":4545.171,"end":4573.438,"text":"就醫學中心當然他自己像長庚醫院他甚至有自己研發節能的能力對所以我講的是比較小型的可是他可能在社區或者是偏鄉相對蠻重要的他們會希望衛福部可以明確來規範他們要做哪些減碳的措施還有碳盤查哪些是必要的項目但這方面的話關於這些小型的醫療機構他們是希望衛福部或者是環境部來"},{"start":4575.158,"end":4596.349,"text":"給衛福部協助可以多給一些誘因或者是資源等等的我們現在明年開始會是擴大列管的範圍不過是以醫學中心為主所以那個中小型的其實是不會列管的但是如果說中小型他願意去改善那個節電的話他也是省錢的一種方式啦我們也是鼓勵啦但是目前的確是沒有資源來特別協助他們"},{"start":4597.369,"end":4623.638,"text":"好這是他們很在意的一個點那再來這題比較特別一點點是因為剛之前有質詢過您關於環境部的任性計畫裡面就有包括核生化這些救災車等等的所以您會知道說任性是未來我們國家很重要的一個議題尤其是地緣政治的關係或是位處於地震帶那當然您有做到"},{"start":4624.478,"end":4645.857,"text":"這個全國公測工程的補助計畫叫做美質環境推動計畫這個是很好但今天想要跟你討論一個重點是日本呢他們在經歷過阪神大地震還有後續的其他地震之後他們就發現在沒有電力沒有排水的狀況之下其實市民的如測權變成一個很重要的問題"},{"start":4647.178,"end":4674.016,"text":"對那這個是後來我們去研究日本他們怎麼做他們就開始去開發一個組合式的公測那他會在這個人孔蓋拿起來以後把它接上去裝上去之後這個組合時間其實只需要15分鐘但是他兼顧了隱私那兼顧了這個韌性那兼顧長輩的尤其是行動不方便的這個等一下我們再來看台灣的來做一個比較"},{"start":4675.057,"end":4684.069,"text":"所以我是在想您有沒有考慮把韌性列入您未來公測的設施改善計畫當中我們目前還沒有"},{"start":4684.895,"end":4713.695,"text":"我們目前還沒有在做這個事我們現在是改善這個廁所的品質公廁的品質為目標所以委員提這個建議非常好我們可以來想看看怎麼樣來推動這個事情給你看一下我們現在的圖當然您現在的改善計畫裡面包括了永續、環保、性別平權友善、綠能等等精神都已經是現在國際公廁的趨勢沒有錯可是加入任性的話這個是我們平常會看到的嘛"},{"start":4714.615,"end":4727.106,"text":"像這樣子一台租一台的租金大概是600到700而且移動的時間你要把它考量進來對不對到時候如果是地震或者是大型的災害他搬進來是非常不容易的"},{"start":4728.602,"end":4745.862,"text":"還有他其實長輩不友善他完全沒有無障礙的空間對那這個是我們現在要用的所以我希望說未來可不可以一個月內提供書面報告是不是考慮在下個年度把任性這樣子的概念放進您的公策改善計畫裡面"},{"start":4746.854,"end":4772.211,"text":"好委員這個我們來研究一下因為目前這個是中央災害應變中心他因應這個可能發生這種緊急事故的時候他的確有這樣的一個規劃但是我們現在環境部門美職的這個廁所改善並沒有含在這一塊那這個我們來研究一下對但因為全國的公廁是您是最高指導單位嘛對對因此這也是日本人他們遇到了大型災害以後才發現哇原來他們之前除了電力除了水"},{"start":4772.931,"end":4776.774,"text":"除了飲食他們沒有考慮到的地方他們才會去做這樣子的發明好 謝謝委員滿好的意見 謝謝"},{"start":4780.831,"end":4806.381,"text":"好下一個您年初的時候曾經提出說你要發表一個新空瓶政策白皮書作為第三期那因為這個議題大家最近越來越關切5月17以後火力發電可能會提高到84%所以大家也想知道現在已經今年已經快過一半了可是您年初說要做出的這個白皮書到現在都還沒有看到請問現在進度如何"},{"start":4806.881,"end":4830.67,"text":"包委我們禮拜五就會公佈已經好了那因為我自己我自己也有在看看得很細一個一個在改所以稍微延後了大概一兩個禮拜那這個禮拜五就會開記者會對外公佈那之前您曾經說到說這個白皮書可能包括預報還可以應變然後還可以做管理您方便現在稍微透露一下您是要怎麼利用"},{"start":4832.71,"end":4846.797,"text":"這個應變管理或是預警來加強好第一個是我們過去那個空瓶的預報或是監測是屬於監知師那大氣師是發如果空污的時候他們再來整個統合還有跟各縣市環保局那現在他們已經這個"},{"start":4847.797,"end":4864.483,"text":"做整合了我們有一組原來做預報的同仁已經移到大西市去進行運作了所以現在在磨合當中所以未來他們這個速度就會更快例如說遇到空屋的事件的時候他們就會更快的結合到發布到民眾跟地方政府共同應變來做處理"},{"start":4865.703,"end":4893.12,"text":"那這個報告書呢其實也跟委員報告其實我們最近也發現就是說很多大家的民眾的空屋呢生活的空屋是蠻多的例如說我們家裡面一打開瓦斯那個LNG一打開其實也有很多的這個微粒會跑出來所以其實未來我們民眾的生活的空屋如何改善這個是未來是我們一個很大的一個重點所以你的意思是說你這個白皮書很大一部分是要告訴民眾說他生活中不管是他接觸家用的"},{"start":4894.1,"end":4921.236,"text":"家用的這些電器或者是說他的交通工具你想要提高這方面的意識其實最重要是說因為我們有一個目標啦我希望說2030年我們PM2.5可以拚到10啦這個是我們一個很大的目標那當然現在進入一個深水區現在的工具是做不到的但是如果敬禮努力做有機會PM2.52030可以到10以下或是2035可以到8這也是大家最擔心的"},{"start":4922.316,"end":4946.712,"text":"因為我已經告訴你很快火力發電就會提高到84%所以本席今天想跟您討論的是您之前受訪的時候提到說電力對於國內境內的空污來自交通的占比是12.2%工業大概是10.7%電力的占比只有2.3%而且主要是火力發電這一點跟一般"},{"start":4947.392,"end":4975.363,"text":"民眾的嘗試或是直覺落差非常的大所以這一點是想要今天跟您請教的是說您的資料來源是不是台灣污染源排放清澈TDS 12.0對 2021年的由我們環境部所委託的然後蒐集全台灣的各種的排碳源然後把它排放之後經由大氣的擴散之後算出來一年"},{"start":4975.623,"end":4991.421,"text":"所以您講的火力發電站空乎的2.3%其實您指的只是PM2.5嗎?對 PM2.5有包含它自己本身直接排放的或是它衍生的例如說Sux、Nux都在裡面是一個統合的結果但是你如果把其他這些衍生物"},{"start":4993.022,"end":5010.681,"text":"氮氧化物或是硫氧化物加一加它並不只2.5%2.3%包委員因為我們空汙現在大概都直接看PM2.5因為PM2.5有包含它原生的或是它衍生的例如說SAXNAX或是ORON臭氧它們其實經過化學反應之後也會造成微粒的增加好"},{"start":5011.101,"end":5038.637,"text":"那在您引用的這個資料呢其實流氧化物或是氮氧化物它的比例是蠻高的它在火力發電站全國的污染比例分別是16.5%還有40.4%那您說出2.3這樣子的數據其實跟裡面看到的40.4它的落差是很高的我是希望啦您還是可以讓人民知道說第一空污的這些"},{"start":5039.757,"end":5064.842,"text":"來源不只是PM2.5因為其實您剛講到其他東西全部都是很傷害人體健康的沒有統一基本上我們現在看的都是PM2.5因為PM2.5就包含它原生的微粒或是說例如說燃煤電廠它一定有微粒那您會告訴我們說未來5月17之後您最在意的這個PM2.5所佔空污的比例到底會不會升高"},{"start":5065.562,"end":5088.443,"text":"我們有算過 評估過 如果說河山的兩個機組關掉之後這幾年前我們就有特別做過了 其實大概只增加0.003維克但是我必須說那是年平均 不是說某一天因為有時候萬一大氣擴散不好的時候其實有時候某一些可能相對的會比較高 那個是一個平均的數值"},{"start":5089.284,"end":5106.582,"text":"好因為現在許許多多你知道現在鄉民也非常會做這些資料的分析所以我希望未來你還是可以在PM2.5以外其他會影響人體健康的你都把它一起算進來好嗎是可以但是我們現在看的都是PM2.5它直接或間接衍生的這個污染物"},{"start":5107.322,"end":5132.21,"text":"最後一個問題就是您今天講到的這個PFAS管理行動計畫其實本席只是想點出跟你們其他環境部以前的專案不同在哪裡你們以前包括提出了比如說污染鑑定還有感染技術開發計畫還有全國環境檢測智慧轉型計畫水質推動計畫等等等等等等"},{"start":5132.89,"end":5155.898,"text":"都會做好三件事情第一個就是把總經費還好包括上次你提出的任性計畫其實化學任性計畫也是一樣嘛第二是把責任分工規劃好每一個機關每一年要花多少錢做多少事情還有把績效還有進度都訂好像是你總共要做幾年然後你每年至少要做到哪些事情可是在你這個PFAS"},{"start":5157.719,"end":5167.039,"text":"管理計畫從頭翻到尾是非常的空泛的第一個沒有執行年限第二個沒有制定績效第三也沒有總經費沒有分年期的經費"},{"start":5170.135,"end":5186.97,"text":"因為P5S本身就是施德荷爾摩公約的一個延伸的管理物質那我們從1997年其實就有一個這個叫做持久性有機化的公約這也是跨部會的那當時的執行方式就是因為這個物質它是一直不斷的發展"},{"start":5188.511,"end":5217.205,"text":"所以在擬定那個計畫當時就不會把定下一個期限但是它是每年都有工作項目然後每年檢討你現在唯一考核管制每年就只有一次那上一次我質詢的時候才剛爆出說有37座淨水廠遭到包含PFAR之內的致來物超標但是飲用水條例都已經28年沒有修訂了所以其實訂定績效是蠻重要的"},{"start":5217.605,"end":5236.785,"text":"是 各位報告這個我們會來檢討因為工作項目真的是跨了七個部會太多那經費都是在原來他的計畫裡面去融資所以譬如說因為他這個有機軟物是很多種那現在我們是希望他PPS優先來做可你優先來做要抽出多少錢來"},{"start":5237.506,"end":5256.835,"text":"我們在跟部位研商的時候其實這有困難不過我們來盡可能來把它看能不能這個期限上好 那再麻煩一個月給我兩個報告第一個是廁所的韌性第二個是這個你PFAS管理計畫要如何做改進謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝陳金輝委員接下來請圖全級委員發言"},{"start":5269.262,"end":5272.047,"text":"好謝謝主席請我們彭部長請彭部長委員好部長那"},{"start":5278.96,"end":5303.048,"text":"當然我們現在我國在積極推動淨零轉型嘛那現在是我們的重要工作那勢必高碳排高耗能這些產業一定是首當其衝那我看你去年也有指出像我們電子零組件金屬製品批發零售業這些行業勢必會受到我們這些我們短期因為推動淨零轉型的這些衝擊"},{"start":5305.39,"end":5317.108,"text":"那也看我們你那時候指出我們可能預估2025年失業人口大概會超過1萬到2050年失業人口可能會超過4萬那"},{"start":5319.622,"end":5341.363,"text":"部長也有表示會跟我們像環境部會跟勞動部經濟部我們一起成立跨部會的淨零職場的轉型平台那這個平台現在建立了嗎報告委員你提到那個報告是勞動部當年委託學者做的報告啦那他有很多的這個假設那我也跟那個洪森漢洪部長討論過那個報告"},{"start":5342.944,"end":5369.851,"text":"那基本上我知道那個報告沒有繼續做下去的因為我們都是這個領域做的人啦所以知道說像我們看到綠領的工作機會多在增加那我們現在還看不到任何一家企業因為淨領開始這個裁員所以目前來看的話那份報告是學者他一些推估啦所以我們認為可以拿來做政策的可信度的使用程度並不高所以這個是也跟委員報告那另外一個呢是其實這個"},{"start":5371.171,"end":5394.337,"text":"勞動部洪森漢部長很重視這個問題所以在包含了5月1號有一些勞動勞工朋友的這個代表提出一些七個建言其中有一項就是淨零所以目前的確我們跟勞動部有合作一個平台準備就要討論針對這種勞工未來他要進行公正轉型或是說淨零的時候他們需要如何的參與所以我們準備要來談這個事情了"},{"start":5395.817,"end":5416.046,"text":"所以你部長的意思是說這個近年轉型不會衝擊到這些產業嗎那個可以再算但是我必須說之前去年那份委託的研究報告我自己從我個人的角度因為我必須那個是勞動部委託的計畫但是從我自己這個領域的專業來看的話那份報告參考價值度不高"},{"start":5417.887,"end":5431.318,"text":"對那我請問部長那如果我們這個近年轉型推動的部分那你們應該也有評估啊那像這會不會像我們剛剛講你說這只是他們的預估那有沒有可能事實上真的會衝擊到這些產業"},{"start":5432.979,"end":5458.304,"text":"我們觀察現在的確有一些產業它是非常傳統的然後它甚至本身已經沒有國際競爭力的那它的確在這波壓力之下可能會被迫有一些調整這個我們一直密切在注意但是目前這樣的案例不多那我們現在的確會想要跟勞動部一起來合作來探討來做超前的部署假設有些企業遇到這樣的狀況真的是屬實的話那我們該怎麼辦的確我們在討論這個事情"},{"start":5461.585,"end":5478.001,"text":"對啊部長其實你剛剛講沒有錯其實真的要超前部署你不能等到確實已經一堆人失業了你再來規劃要去做所以我就說居然專家學者有這一部分的評估有這一部分的隱憂勢必你在推動近年轉型確實有些"},{"start":5481.123,"end":5506.771,"text":"產業絕對會受到這些衝擊那所以勞動部他他們有去做這個報告那我們現在也是說希望針對這個報告的部分那我們環境部也希望喔能夠在這之前超前部署是不是針對我們有可能這些失業造成衝擊的產業像我們有收這個碳費是不是也應該去補助做一些人才培訓這一方面的訓練課程"},{"start":5508.231,"end":5528.262,"text":"對 包委員其實我們的綠領裡面就有一項是跟勞動部合作的那當然我必須說這份報告呢就僅供參考用這個就我們現在的這個政策的落實性可以當成我們治理性可行性不高啦這份報告但是我們很密切注意這個事情所以未來呢如果有碳費甚至我也跟洪部長"},{"start":5530.023,"end":5557.641,"text":"這個討論說我們是不是加大那個力道讓勞工朋友多一點增能的一個空間這個就是我們綠領在做的事情對因為他照這樣子來評估其實我們也擔心說萬一淨零轉型去做之後造成這些產業的衝擊那我們現在比較擔心就是說這些產業他其實到時候如果這些人才他要轉型的時候勢必他們的部分他們是屬於"},{"start":5558.982,"end":5586.972,"text":"因為已經就業可能10年以上那年齡一定都是比較高屬於中高年再加上這些產業其實整體它的教育程度來講都是比較低那我後來也看一些我們針對我們補助的重點像我們環境部跟工研院有在推動綠領人才培訓跟補助這些辦法好像重點都是放在30歲以下跟大專學歷以上"},{"start":5587.892,"end":5610.258,"text":"為主要對象那當然你們這個推動最主要目的是希望能夠把一些新血新血輪來加入這些行列那可是我們覺得說你加入新血輪當然勢必重要可是現有勞動力的這些轉型是不是我們應該也要有一些相關的措施去輔導他們"},{"start":5611.998,"end":5635.891,"text":"委員的提議是非常好目前就是我們會透過勞動部那個平台來討論這個事情因為說真的勞動部他的資源比環境部來對於勞工的輔導他們更了解怎麼幫助勞工那我們這邊就是屬於綠領的人才的培訓所以這個部分我們的確是已經約了時間近期就會來見面來談這個媒合的事情如何來合作"},{"start":5636.571,"end":5652.507,"text":"對啊所以那時候部長也有提到你像因為我們現在推動淨零轉型那勢必環境部勞動部跟經濟部這個跨部會的合作真的是很重要那你當然說那一部分那個專家學者勞動部他所做的報告"},{"start":5653.347,"end":5670.776,"text":"當然可能是站在他立場去做一些評估但是我們也是擔心說勢必對這些產業多少一定會有受到相當的衝擊可能未必是他評估的這麼的嚴重但是這一部分也值得我們注意就是我們在培訓的部分不能把重點"},{"start":5671.636,"end":5690.57,"text":"都放在新血輪的加入而且這些年輕而且學歷高其實整體上他們在產業的就業率來講其實他的條件一定是比較好那我們現在就是擔心這些中高齡他轉型而且本身他的學歷並不是像"},{"start":5691.35,"end":5716.598,"text":"這些新血輪你們現在補助的學歷這麼高那反而到時候他們要轉型就業成為綠領人才反而如果我們沒有去補助他們去培訓他們勢必對他們來講到時候轉型一定是有很大的問題那加上我們環境部有收這個碳費所以我們才想說是不是部長在針對碳費這部分來補助我們這些人才的轉型"},{"start":5717.498,"end":5746.014,"text":"好謝謝委員的蠻好建議因為我們碳費明年才會收到啦然後那如果說未來從這個公正轉型的角度的確委員提到的一個特別是高齡或是學歷比較低或是年資很長的這個族群的確是我們可以來列入考慮在裡面等於是我們今年可以說是先開始先對年輕朋友那未來呢包含委員提的原住民新住民等等這個我們的確可以來納入考慮那我們也會跨部會例如說像"},{"start":5746.434,"end":5771.804,"text":"原住民其實就必須跟原住民委員會來談如何來媒合因為這部分我們今天會提出當然我們就希望未雨綢繆你不要等到一堆人失業的時候我們再來尋求這個解套方式那就太慢了所以剛剛部長也有看到所以我們希望目前我們環境部跟工研院推動的部分是屬於比較年輕高學歷的我們希望能夠針對這部分我們來研議擴大補助的對象"},{"start":5775.425,"end":5795.749,"text":"就像我們原住民、新住民還有二度就業的婦女還有中高齡這些有可能面臨失業轉型的這一部分我們現在嚴厲來補助希望能夠針對綠領人才的培訓我們環境部也來出來協助我們勞動部甚至其他各部會來讓這個補助計畫能夠順利的來推動好沒問題委員的建議我們會考慮好謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":5802.87,"end":5820.188,"text":"好 謝謝圖權級委員發言接下來請邱政軍委員發言好 主席好 我們一樣請彭部長請彭部長"},{"start":5826.039,"end":5850.77,"text":"部長好上次跟部長討論過我們陸域風機新設的問題我現在發現我們後龍好望角這個地方那邊有21座的風機將在2027年會年滿20年現在廠商提出更新計畫更新計畫之後我聽說要加寬跟加高會差不多是現在的兩倍"},{"start":5851.912,"end":5859.89,"text":"那周圍大概有229戶的居民會受到影響那這次的更新案居民反彈都非常大"},{"start":5861.181,"end":5887.251,"text":"環民第一次審查之後環民委員要求廠商量化說明我們風機噪音、震動、眩影對民宅還有敏感受體的影響及差異性還要強化減輕對策及檢討風機更新改建的位置跟數量但是居民是希望大風車可以滾出社區這部分環境部可以擋在第一線嗎?"},{"start":5888.732,"end":5905.587,"text":"因為這個是以前齁那個20年前可能是20年前弄的他那時候沒有環評啦所以現在其實如果他新蓋的重新再來那這個就要環評這個部分就會進到我們程序那也跟委員報告現在因為我們的環評委員對於這個陸域風機喔大概"},{"start":5908.43,"end":5935.248,"text":"五百公尺半徑五百公尺其實有影響到這個五百公尺內有建築物的都是很嚴格審查的所以包含了眩影、低頻噪音、震動等等這個我很放心如果有這樣的情況我們因為目前還有好幾個案例像這樣都非常難過非常難過當然我不能說限制說他不能申請但是非常難過一定要特別小心對啦因為這個對居民的影響非常大他們忍受了二十年"},{"start":5936.229,"end":5962.329,"text":"那現在當然我們一直以來對於陸域風這個風機的設置本來現在就已經在做調整了那我希望環境部在這邊一定要做好嚴格把關的這個動作那我再來問就是說報導指出在2025年夏天拆下來的風機葉片會有累積的高度會有1050公尺接近兩座101大樓的高度那未來10年將有900隻的"},{"start":5965.352,"end":5979.914,"text":"這個廢棄葉片退役是這樣嗎那這些東西又沒辦法回收那國外是一般是粉碎來掩埋那台灣土地這麼小垃圾現在都還沒有辦法處理那我們未來的處理方式會怎麼樣"},{"start":5981.015,"end":6006.776,"text":"報告委員其實現在當然有一些處理的方式因為當時對於管制並沒有那麼嚴格我們現在正在修相關的法例例如說支援循環的推動法我們希望下個會期送到立法院其實未來針對這樣的不管是太陽能或是風機它要預先的去做處理所以目前來說的話我們大概是可以把它變成透過水泥窯的燃燒變成一種低碳水泥來做使用"},{"start":6007.176,"end":6032.808,"text":"或是說其實他的纖維材料也可以作為一個建材所以他不應該是廢棄物啦已經有這個技術可以處理了已經有一個技術了對 因為他如果拿來 我覺得如果掩埋他也是 我們沒那麼多地方嘛那如果拿來燒 我們又擔心碳排然後還有一些空污的問題啦那這部分 現在我們以前20年前做的這些東西他確實已經找到這個回收的辦法 有這樣的技術就對了"},{"start":6033.928,"end":6055.931,"text":"那各位報告,現在我們已經有把一些葉片做一些試驗,然後去切片之後,然後送到水裡面去當作燃料或是材料那未來如果新設的這些材料,它會跟這個一樣還是說你們有規範說它一定要用什麼?是,那以後這些案場,它就要負起後面回收的責任"},{"start":6056.631,"end":6059.273,"text":"方式上面我們還在討論後面一定要讓他在20年廢棄之後能夠把這些妥善的處理我們有限制他材質"},{"start":6070.361,"end":6091.033,"text":"因為這個風機它有一些它自己使用上的特性,因為它要能夠在選擇區域你們在審核的時候,我希望說現在已經20年前的這些材料你都有辦法它來做回收利用了當然我們希望也把這些東西列入,列入就是說未來在審核的標準的一個標準,可以嗎?"},{"start":6091.813,"end":6115.368,"text":"它現在是一種玻璃纖維啦所以它基本上對環境是無害的但是基本上如果它變成廢棄物如何處理那這個就是我們必須要去管制或關注的這個焦點因為我想因為我聽到說我們台電跟風電業者可能會申請這個延誼5到10年那這部分的標準是誰來審查是怎麼審查的風機延誼5到10年"},{"start":6120.546,"end":6130.037,"text":"我們還沒有聽過風機演繹舞蹈目前沒有嗎?台電有在提?可能是能源署那邊如果是他們提,我們環境部立場是什麼?"},{"start":6134.231,"end":6152.464,"text":"如果是風機的原因要看他是拆除以後是不是重新申請許可如果他沒拆除就繼續用啊他認為說他還可以用啊繼續用的話基本上我們是沒有在我們的環評的相關規定裡面去規範但是我們所知的因為現在科技的進步很多小的風機會拆除然後重新申請許可"},{"start":6153.405,"end":6175.514,"text":"那他改成大的風機重新申請的這個風機的許可就會他如果研議他換一些材料你也看不出來換材料這種的就不是整資的這個風機的情況那這個就不是由我們來管理因為他當初申請的年限到了那如果到了又申請研議我現在在好奇就是說因為他可能還有些東西是可能還可以用的那但是居民在等他拆啊"},{"start":6176.494,"end":6201.376,"text":"對不對那你又突然演繹那我們環境部又沒有沒有一個也沒有也沒有介入去做一個審核的這個機制嗎完全都沒有跟委員報告因為就環評的部分因為環評是一個預防的一個機制所以我們管的通常都是一個新建一個新的案場那如果你是因為不管是風機或其他開發行為如果是因為零件要替換或是我覺得這樣啦我希望另外一個層次"},{"start":6201.556,"end":6228.212,"text":"研議的部分我希望環境部也能夠去參與好不好部長你再了解一下我再來了解一下謝謝委員建議那另外關於PFACE這個部分我們列了357種PFACE的化合物是有毒的化學物質那是做管制並沒有禁用歐盟是在2030年他就要淘汰整個PFACE類別我們會跟進嗎"},{"start":6230.79,"end":6251.186,"text":"會跟委員報告,其實我們公告的物質都是跟著市的公約的公告期程他們禁用的部分,應該會有一個禁限用我們跟著他大概在一年多,我們國內也公告出來因為還要產業調查跟調整,所以我們都會follow這個公約來走所以他整個淘汰,我們整個就會拿掉?對"},{"start":6252.327,"end":6268.788,"text":"那現在勒剛剛委員所提到的357那裡面是有競選用的那歐盟的本身因為他歐盟歐盟雖然是那個歐盟他雖然是私的跟我們公約的一個會員國不過他本身會再做寬一點的調查所以這個資料我們也都在收集"},{"start":6269.188,"end":6282.223,"text":"對 因為我現在比較好奇就是說我們現在一般產品頂多就是不含酸粉不含塑化劑對不對 我們有沒有標示什麼有沒有含環境荷爾蒙這個部分"},{"start":6282.885,"end":6307.833,"text":"有 這個就是在產品我們舉個例子就像大家會習慣我們有標章嗎 有這個標章嗎我們如果是有環保標章的就會按照我們的規範來走 這會給他都會給他那我們舉個例子就是大家關心因為以前的用途很廣因為像不沾鍋 食品包裝或衣服或化妝品等等這些都可能會有這些東西所以我是希望說我們能夠清楚標示給我們的消費者去選擇"},{"start":6309.704,"end":6326.773,"text":"所以我們會來鼓勵業者那前幾天我去賣場其實看那個很多的不沾鍋都會貼都會有個標籤寫說不含PFOA或者是其他的梳化劑都會有現在慢慢的這業者的自主的一個標示對因為這個我想管的這個部會也很"},{"start":6328.715,"end":6345.214,"text":"衛福部也管環境部也管還有經濟部還有農業部所以我希望大家有一套標準能夠橫向的聯繫能夠統一讓我們消費者可以很清楚的就可以去辨識這樣好嗎是我們在跨部會小組來討論最後我再請教我們部長"},{"start":6346.115,"end":6372.037,"text":"我們那天到苗栗,謝謝部長到苗栗來關心我們苗栗的這個我們當時有提到一個叫循環園區,那部長這個計畫會有期程嗎?我們現在在爭取行政院的預算當中,如果爭取得到因為這個是我們近鄰推動的一個項目,那這個是明年的經費啦那也希望我們可以爭取得到,那當然這個就希望全台灣有一些像這樣的點"},{"start":6372.737,"end":6388.737,"text":"那也謝謝委員因為那個土質廠這個例如說我們的營建廢棄物的處理因為苗栗有這樣的這個能力也很主動來做所以這個未來我是覺得如果配合的好的話我是覺得這個是一個蠻好的一個機會除了現在苗栗市的掩埋廠現在活化"},{"start":6389.238,"end":6413.073,"text":"那另外現在就是循環園區的一個爭取啦我們來地方跟中央來一起合作那另外還有我們竹南它的粉化掩埋場的部分它那邊的場域也蠻大的嘛這個部長有考量嗎好這個我們來研究好不好因為這個還有一點點時間因為開始要做爭取經費然後後面的未來的這個施工或規劃都有一點時間那我們是樂觀啟程好謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":6417.059,"end":6420.682,"text":"好 謝謝邱正軍委員 接下來請王育民委員發言謝謝主席 我們有請部長 請彭部長王委員好 部長好 部長我今天要跟你討論環評的議題 這個大"},{"start":6444.497,"end":6466.312,"text":"台電有一個大甲溪光明計畫 抽蓄水利的開發案這一個案子 請問部長你有所瞭解嗎我知道 他現在是在補正在審補正在審嗎這一個案子呢 這個環團已經站出來抗議了那主要是 大家可以看一下 他這一個案子呢 他是要透過炸山"},{"start":6467.11,"end":6470.652,"text":"這個開挖這個整個隧道高達10公里然後去貫穿這個德基谷關這個兩座水庫那它位處的位置呢又在這個地震帶然後大家都知道這個中橫事實上它整個地質非常的敏感而且脆弱之前還曾經發生過2004年的七二水災當時水災發生的時候"},{"start":6496.389,"end":6514.003,"text":"其實整個包括這個大甲溪沿線的青山電廠全毀德基天倫谷關發電廠也通通都遭到溪水的侵入那更不用說現在的中橫事實上它都還沒有雙向通車都是變道"},{"start":6514.944,"end":6517.727,"text":"我曾經擔任過台中市的副市長也曾經到和平所以沿路這樣子上去坦白講我看到的是有點覺得觸目驚心就是那一帶的這個地質狀況的確是像環團所講的他的確是敏感而且脆弱但是今天"},{"start":6534.524,"end":6538.805,"text":"我們竟然號稱這個綠電是要在那個地方就是要去炸山這麼敏感脆弱的地方還要再炸山然後呢去標榜說我們發展出來的是綠電這個我要請教部長這樣子的一個開發案作為環境部你真的認為適當嗎"},{"start":6559.202,"end":6577.66,"text":"包委員那個那天的環評會議據我了解不過那天不是我主持的因為還在初審當中那環評委員有提出斷層地質還有生態的問題所以不是只有環保團體有意見其實環評委員也有意見要他們補正說明再審所以這個其實是已經很清楚了"},{"start":6578.22,"end":6593.04,"text":"好我覺得這個案子這個環境部你要做好你的把關的角色因為在第一次的這個環評的意見裡面其實就已經很充分的說明了就是說要強化地質調查跟安全評估作業"},{"start":6593.901,"end":6622.077,"text":"但是呢坦白講在第二次的這個環評審查裡面好像針對這個部分並沒有太多的琢磨跟說明好像就直接忘記這件事情然後談的都是土石方管理放置的問題但是我認為最前端的整個地質調查跟安全評估這個才是重中之重站在環境部的角度如果今天有一個開發案"},{"start":6622.998,"end":6650.627,"text":"它是破壞環境而且難以回復這個問題本質才是最嚴重的土方那個是後續已經開發堆置的問題所以我要就教部長的就是說這個部分第一階段環評的結論為什麼在第二階段環評的時候這個這麼關鍵的地質調查報告反而不見了有啊 他現在進入二階二階的時候他就要加強這個地質的調查的結果所以的確是被要求要做這些事情的"},{"start":6651.104,"end":6674.934,"text":"但是他沒有提出來的時候怎麼可以進到二階呢就是說這個部分他有一個完整的地址調查跟安全評估的報告出來嗎因為一階的時候是要求這個部分是重點跟委員報告因為這個是屬於在地址敏感區所以依照地址法他本來就要做一些地址評估跟調查那這個是有放在他附入裡面那除了說委員有去審視這個附入的完整地址調查報告以外"},{"start":6675.294,"end":6682.719,"text":"我們環境部也會要求就是我們會委託一個專業的地質計事公會來提供第三方的意見然後公委員來做參考好這個部分我覺得是非常重要而且是環境部應該去把關的地方因為就這個案子來講他曾經在很早年提出來但是後來其實就已經停擺到2016年的時候是因為缺電了坦白講是因為缺電經濟部今天經濟部也有代表但是產業署不是能源署"},{"start":6705.934,"end":6732.766,"text":"經濟部行政院要求台電要再重新送這個計畫的那也就是代表是缺電的情況底下才啟動的但是這個跟我們所標榜號稱的綠電我覺得跟差太遠了你所謂的水利發電應該是運用自然的地形它可以達到這樣的一個條件你去發電這個我都非常贊成但你今天明明達不到這個條件你還要去炸山"},{"start":6733.939,"end":6752.035,"text":"你覺得仁定勝天還要炸山而且在這個地質脆弱敏感的地區炸山之後想要完成這個條件我覺得這個真的是很蠢的一個計畫 我必須這樣子講違反自然環境 破壞自然環境更重要的是它的發電量才多少 大家來看一下"},{"start":6752.91,"end":6767.974,"text":"他這樣子大費周章整個去開發花了好幾百億而且可能到2034年才會完成的這項計畫以為可以弄得人定勝天結果他的發電量原本規劃的才多少"},{"start":6771.427,"end":6778.614,"text":"368MW其實也才這樣而已那我覺得更離譜的是怎麼會環評大會裡面呢開完之後說哎呀你要擴大你的開發的規模從原來的368MW要增加到740MW有這種環評大會嗎是怎麼開的"},{"start":6790.092,"end":6794.458,"text":"為什麼可以有這樣的一個主張過去很罕見從來沒有看過我們開發量體是越小越好結果有環評大會開完之後怎麼會這樣子呢要求是要加大它的整個開發規模呢"},{"start":6804.932,"end":6810.474,"text":"其實這個案子因為是依法要進行二階的環評那二階的環評中間會有一個範疇界定的會議那範疇界定會議除了評估的項目跟範圍之外還有一個很重要就是要來討論替代方案所以在這個範疇界定會議的時候有委員有提出說你這樣子的一個開發計畫如果說你要進行開發你要不要考慮就是做規模的替代因為如果是要一次施工的話他希望你就"},{"start":6830.14,"end":6852.691,"text":"可以的庫容的一個範圍裡面去做一個最高的一個規模的一個評估但是這只是委員的建議那台電他也說他會回去評估所以他其實是依照飯頭界定委員的建議去評估因為就我們了解他其實像剛剛委員關心的乍三的問題因為他要開新設一個投水隧道那個10公里那不管你是368MW或者是610MW那都是要蓋那條隧道那既然都要蓋那條隧道委員說"},{"start":6858.214,"end":6880.088,"text":"你的這個開發是不是有可能在規模上提高請他們去評估但是並沒有說一定要他們接受但是現在好像這個就變成結論了而且也一直這樣子講我要講的是說你現在又破壞環境然後又是這樣的一個經費然後你其實換來的大概最多也是610MW的一個發電量然後會造成生態上面的耗竭就一去不復返"},{"start":6886.731,"end":6907.046,"text":"這樣子的一個開發案我真的覺得經濟部審審吧不要用破壞環境一方面告訴大家說不缺電然後一方面又想要破壞環境然後來換得這樣的一個發電量事實上經濟部你有很多的選擇今天經濟部有代表來雖然不是能源署是不是也上來回去一定要轉達是能源署是不是好 那能源署趕快上來這一個案子"},{"start":6915.475,"end":6918.723,"text":"我看錯 我以為今天是產業發展署 來 能源署上來"},{"start":6922.903,"end":6946.158,"text":"這樣的一個開發案是你們主導的而且我知道是由上面交代要台電去開發的是行政院的定調來這個我們能源署的代表這個案子剛剛其實環境部的態度也很清楚覺得你們這個其實對於生態的一個影響其實是非常大的恐怕會造成生態的耗竭你們這個案子還要硬推下去嗎"},{"start":6948.035,"end":6968.67,"text":"謝謝委員的意見因為這個案子我想我們委員的建議我們會整體納入考量因為我在這邊給你一個具體的建議如果你真的缺電的話昨天立法院才剛通過河山廠他其實可以研議這個也是你的選項那河山廠的發電量二號街發電量多少來你說你知不知道"},{"start":6975.367,"end":6995.973,"text":"951MW我要讓各位看到的就是和三長二號機的演繹951MW不必炸山不必破壞也不會造成生態的耗竭而且立法院昨天已經通過了讓你經濟部可以去審慎的評估在安全的情況底下讓他可以發電這個就是你其中一個選項"},{"start":6997.173,"end":7023.195,"text":"你現在因為缺電特別是你夜間缺電所以你想辦法要去大甲溪又要去乍山然後要來弄一個你這個光明抽蓄水力發電你這個又耗時又破壞生態發電量又小經濟部你真的回去好好思考一下當你有選擇權的時候有沒有要一意孤行一定要破壞生態來達到你這樣的一個發電的目標"},{"start":7024.613,"end":7038.021,"text":"謝謝委員的意見就是說我們在做整體的電力供需的時候一定會做全面的考量不管是對生態或是法規的規定那還是謝謝委員那委員的意見我們會做整體的評估"},{"start":7038.697,"end":7062.348,"text":"好我希望今天可以把這個我在這邊質詢的意見帶回去我覺得整個政府的能源政策你要從國家長遠跟永續的角度來探討特別我們今天講的是環境部的議題我們絕對不接受你是用破壞生態炸山在地質敏感地區然後硬要去弄一個其實發電量也沒有很大的"},{"start":7063.048,"end":7089.455,"text":"這樣的一個新的這個水利發電計畫這個違反了我們對於綠電的精神也違反了我們對於環境永續保護的精神所以我要求部長在這一個如果這個經濟部執意要繼續往下這個開發的時候我想你們在二階環評的時候你們就是真正可以為民眾就是守護住我們的整個環境永續的一個很重要的單位這個部分我希望部長"},{"start":7092.156,"end":7111.566,"text":"你這個把你的專業拿出來就是好好的嚴格的審議 好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝王委員委員會這邊宣告朱新泉 張偶瑋執行宣達結束我們休息十分鐘那接下來請黃秀安委員來做宣達謝謝主席 我們請部長"},{"start":7121.497,"end":7144.693,"text":"黃委員好部長好 部長在去年你剛上任的時候那當時我也當召委那有針對我們垃圾的這個問題堆置的問題也有排一個專報那當時部長也非常關心那你自己也有到地方有下去看嗎那我想請教就是說從我們的那個露天的堆置垃圾量是"},{"start":7145.393,"end":7171.043,"text":"每一年每一年都一直在增加那我不知道說部長你從去年這樣看然後你有什麼樣的一個解決方式幫委員我們訂的一個計畫就是明年年底不要露天裸露因為露天裸露是讓附近大概有48個露天裸露的點的確附近的居民生活都很困難那個味道或是整個蒼蠅非常的多"},{"start":7171.443,"end":7197.73,"text":"所以我們先解決這個問題那因為我們大概在明年的這個焚化爐的量能可以起來了所以整個會有一點慢慢的平衡下來所以整個我們希望露天裸露解決然後不要有新的這個垃圾產生不要量能平衡其實這個問題就逐步的可以解決那部長你剛剛有特別提到就是全台灣48座的這個垃圾山那你是希望明年就沒有這種垃圾露天裸露的狀況嗎裸露的這個狀況那你怎麼處理"},{"start":7201.051,"end":7229.623,"text":"第一個是一定要有一些復土第二個是打包甚至說我們要再協調一下這個處理的量能夠處理得更好請其他縣市幫忙處理嗎有的是其他縣市那有的要自己去解決像桃園就要自己去盡量自己要去解決這個事情那我們基本上跟每個縣市因為每個縣市的狀況不大一樣所以我們基本上一個一個去跟他們談那目前大家都統一明年會一起來完成解決這個問題"},{"start":7230.583,"end":7253.684,"text":"好那我們是期待因為去年問題然後到今年然後現在變成明年那我們希望說能夠逐年把它解決啦另外我想請教就是說如果我們以目前全台灣27座的這個垃圾焚化爐來處理家戶垃圾那我想請教部長如果說處理家戶垃圾27座焚化爐如果互相調度的話你覺得這樣量能夠嗎"},{"start":7254.525,"end":7278.605,"text":"因為現在的這個垃圾粉化爐是屬於地方政府在管理那當然啦理論上的量能是夠的但是他必須要經營他會去燃燒失業廢棄物也排擠了這個我們家庭廢棄物的這個量能的確這個就是一個過去的問題但是這個問題是地方的失誤去做處理我舉例例如說桃園他們也燒了很多失業廢棄物他們裸露的也蠻多的"},{"start":7279.345,"end":7289.769,"text":"當然他們說應該將來解決可是他們自己都沒辦法解決這個問題所以基本上我是覺得第一個整改的速度在未來一兩年內會陸續的完成我們垃圾的問題應該在未來這幾年可以解決"},{"start":7292.947,"end":7310.168,"text":"好 那我們看到我們所有的這個27座的焚化爐其中有20座都已經超過20年了所以它這個燒的這種效率也許沒有那麼高那我想請教就是說以目前我們的垃圾就是那個熱脂"},{"start":7311.469,"end":7332.71,"text":"熱值都非常的高所以也可能造成我們垃圾焚化爐燒的這個效率沒有那麼好以致於很多的這個垃圾可能就堆置那我想請教就是說剛剛部長有提到可能會逐年就是裸露的這種狀況可能會逐年減少那這個我們是從去年"},{"start":7333.551,"end":7352.999,"text":"開始關心那部長也真的非常關心也有實際到地方去看那我們對你有很大的期待那確定就是說希望這些裸露的狀況能夠有所改善因為中部地區其實也有很多這個垃圾山那可能不定時偶爾就會有這個"},{"start":7355.2,"end":7374.013,"text":"火災火燒山的這種狀況發生所以如果可以將這個垃圾裸露的這個狀況如果可以解決的話我覺得也可以改善這個垃圾山附近居民的這個生活品質那尤其有很多垃圾山就鄰近著學校"},{"start":7375.834,"end":7386.841,"text":"這個狀況真的如果可以解決的話也可以一併讓孩子們在上課的時候也不要每天都聞到那個臭味尤其是夏天的時候真的那個味道真的是非常非常的難聞"},{"start":7405.214,"end":7422.494,"text":"會更多等於是明年的數字會更好看那我也想請教部長因為我們目前的這個垃圾焚化爐除了燒這個交互垃圾那有一部分也會燒失業廢棄物那這個失業廢棄物他們所收的這個價格可能"},{"start":7423.175,"end":7445.573,"text":"跟這個非自己轄內的這個廢棄物的話這個價格還要高嘛那我想請教就是說像有一些縣市比如說堆置的這個垃圾他自己真的確實是沒辦法去處理那我剛剛有問部長嘛如果這些這幾座27座的垃圾焚化爐如果純粹來燒我們的這個家戶垃圾應該是足夠的"},{"start":7452.138,"end":7466.125,"text":"如果是這樣子的應該是足夠的那有沒有什麼樣的方式就是說當然如果說各縣市他要去燒這個一般的失業廢棄物來講因為這個收入可能會"},{"start":7467.245,"end":7488.426,"text":"可能會更好可能會更高那中央這邊除了可能有一些緊急狀況可以做調度的話那其他好像你們也沒辦法去調度其他縣市的焚化爐去做這個燒這個垃圾的這種情形那未來的話有沒有可能就是說我們環境部可以做一個調配"},{"start":7489.807,"end":7514.926,"text":"好就是說如果你目前27座焚化爐而且就是都已經20年以上了其實我覺得那個效率可能也可能會越來然後可能又會碰到稅休的狀況那是不是有可能未來透過修法或者其他的方式我們環境部也可以去做這樣的一個垃圾的一個調配針對我們的一般的這個家庭的這個廢棄物"},{"start":7516.563,"end":7540.269,"text":"報告委員第一個是說我們的調度只針對沒有氛化爐設備處理的縣市會幫忙做調度例如說南投等等那大多數的縣市因為他們自己要這樣燒因為他基本上會採取促餐的方式或BOT的方式能夠獲得民間的裁員所以他才會去燒四葉非七五這個我們都尊重啦但是過去的體制就變成這個樣子了"},{"start":7541.289,"end":7570.892,"text":"那未來呢我也贊同委員的觀點我們未來是希望說不是說我們要興建廢棄物而是說我們希望全循環的流向的這個處理例如說有一個園區它可以從這個源頭到最後末端都可以很好的處理這個希望我們在台灣能夠設幾個地方自己有自己的量能把這個產業扶持起來這個是我們中長期的一個目標所以目前我們大概也跟行政院提出一個相關的計畫所以希望明年可以爭取到預算能夠來做這個事情"},{"start":7571.572,"end":7592.544,"text":"那部長我們剛剛講那個後端的處理那我們這個源頭減量其實確實也是非常的重要那我看到就是說你們的預算就是這個大部分花了這個十幾億在處理垃圾那這個源頭減量的部分預算跟這個處理垃圾相差二十幾倍"},{"start":7593.504,"end":7620.779,"text":"那我因為在地方我有看到好多議員在質詢就是說我們資源回收的那個價格其實不是那麼高那我在這邊是不是也有可能就是說環境部這邊針對源頭減量的這個預算是不是也可以逐年增加那我如果可以在源頭減量的話那我是不是就未來處理垃圾的這個經費就可以減少嗎"},{"start":7623.66,"end":7650.667,"text":"那垃圾 製造垃圾的這個狀況就會減少嗎所以我不知道說這個環境部針對這部分就是有關這個源頭減量的這個經費是不是未來會有所提升對 包圍這個我們自己的預算這塊源頭減量是我們的重點就這個就是循環經濟那我們會增加不過地方的這個不見得就會增加因為地方有些縣市會重視有些縣市不大重視"},{"start":7651.388,"end":7670.129,"text":"所以這個地方我們還要因地制宜能夠來鼓勵他們能夠增加這樣的預算那部長我想請教就是說我們這個處於處理的其實我發現有一些就是處於處理其實不是那麼的確實"},{"start":7672.111,"end":7696.236,"text":"那這個也會造成我們焚化爐的那個壽命可能有時候就是會減短那你怎麼樣去針對這個廚餘廚餘的回收或者廚餘的處理你們環境部這邊會怎麼跟地方這邊來配合我覺得這應該是一個很重要因為有時候我們會看到如果說這個廚餘沒有他可能就直接丟到垃圾車裡面去了"},{"start":7698.307,"end":7723.436,"text":"現在我們觀察有兩種方式一個是有些縣市像屏東或台南他們鼓勵補助一些廚藥機整個就處理掉我們也在觀察他們使用的效果如何到底有沒有會造成一些負面的效益另外一個就是我們有開始在研究黑水盲它是不是可以蒐集出來用黑水盲因為黑水盲未來它也有一些SARF航空永續燃料用油這樣的一個處理"},{"start":7724.116,"end":7740.402,"text":"所以我們現在是希望找到一些好的方式可以找到一些方向我們就接下來就大力的去推所以現在有看了幾種一個方案我已經提到的就是現在台灣遇到的一個問題因為如果廚藝不好好處理拿去焚化爐燒那這個會影響到焚化爐的這個處理的量能"},{"start":7742.187,"end":7769.908,"text":"所以我覺得說應該也要盡快因為我們在去年的時候委員會也有去有去考察去看那個黑水盲那確實它真的應該這個效能應該還不錯所以有的公所他們自己本身有在做那其實我覺得好像推廣的不是那麼全面如果說還不錯的話其實我覺得應該要從環境部自己本身來做推動好"},{"start":7771.269,"end":7782.852,"text":"好不好?好,謝謝,我也在建議。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。提醒部長,文化爐的調度權,我們是當時有修,給你們環境部做處理。好,接下來請蘇昭偉。第28條。"},{"start":7801.874,"end":7810.257,"text":"好,謝謝趙偉好,我們請彭部長還有台電,台電有來喔?台電?台電沒有沒有台電好,蘇貞昭經濟部周副署長周副署長"},{"start":7829.761,"end":7855.519,"text":"部長我跟海洋經濟部我今天請教你們四件事情第一件事就是海上的大風車這個如火如荼我有一個朋友是在開那個船的船長很冷 冷氣的那我都認知啦不知道不對的話你幫我糾正路上的風車差不多有四百多隻現在"},{"start":7858.884,"end":7876.42,"text":"200隻左右,路上大概200隻左右那有幾隻壞掉?幾隻是好的?多少?我去專兵工業區,一堆都壞掉了,那是真的壞的嗎?你要不要回答一下?"},{"start":7877.672,"end":7902.933,"text":"請能源署回答海上的風機目前的狀況都有在持續運轉中都有在維修?我說兩百多機有幾機壞掉?陸域風機的話因為有些確實有風箱還有持續運轉的部分在運轉的狀況我們可能需要再清點一下再給委員因為台電的人跟我講,一吃的成本一億多"},{"start":7905.561,"end":7912.643,"text":"他說一個颱風掃下去就差不多會有損壞二三十八那修一支好幾千萬所以那個是很CP值很高"},{"start":7928.922,"end":7936.905,"text":"好啦 那這個海上的更誇張 你知道一支多少錢嗎一支14億 14億喔要採幾支 本來要採幾支 本來要採幾千支喔有這麼多嗎 我每次聽到這個都背脊花涼這怕什麼就我們死的 我們的怕什麼就我們死的"},{"start":7953.983,"end":7972.321,"text":"德國人也來,美國人也來,我跟你們講,一斤十四億,一千隻,天文數字啊那他產他的利息,他是貸款嘛,那我們的行庫用低利貸給他嘛那他的投資報酬率一定是超過他的銀行貸款,有利潤,他才繼續幹嘛那現在聽說跑掉了"},{"start":7978.393,"end":8000.361,"text":"那跑掉是好事還是壞事?博電你說你怎麼說現在其實第一個是說這個的確台灣的這個有幾家他們這個也有來找我們環境部抱怨抱怨了一些事情那當然啦因為當時的開發不過這個是經濟部的工作啦還是你們要回答"},{"start":8002.796,"end":8013.495,"text":"我記得以前第一次簽約的一度電視好像五塊七啊多少嘛後來就降到五塊降到四塊多那降到四塊多你就不合啊"},{"start":8014.161,"end":8034.485,"text":"沒有他現在他要自己直接找買主自己自己找買主那這個耗損率應該很高現在有幾隻在做跟委員報告一樣現在大概379隻那我目前的裝置容量大概3G左右那到2025年大概是5點多G那初估應該是500到600隻不會到1000隻因為這個"},{"start":8039.146,"end":8054.875,"text":"裝置容量會隨著技術的進進它的容量單次的容量會越來越大所以這個支數會變比較小再者跟委員報告我們剛建好的這幾座風機都非常順利地運轉中目前經歷了幾次颱風跟地震都沒有問題而且是直接掃過去的"},{"start":8065.34,"end":8088.961,"text":"因為我不太記得,大概是前年去年都有這樣台風來的時候,他是把它關掉,還是自己會關?他超過一個風速,差不多中度台風等級,他就會鎖在那邊鎖住,保護他自己所以就不太容易被吹斷,這個一吹斷就完蛋啊這是什麼修理啊?這一支修理,我看一支14億,修理我看要五六億"},{"start":8091.866,"end":8114.046,"text":"就是委員這邊跟您報告一下就是我們當初在推動離岸風電的時候其實針對台灣特殊的狀況就是颱風跟地震的部分我們有請標檢局特別製作了一個標準那就是在台灣設的風機都要符合這個標準才能設所以呢基本上我們的風機的規格其實比歐洲"},{"start":8114.71,"end":8122.391,"text":"再多延一點點然後再來就是這個業者的部分目前就是我們領選到的業者就是"},{"start":8123.596,"end":8149.444,"text":"離岸封建是先示範潛力然後再區塊嘛到目前為止都是潛力的長子的業者那目前的業者都很順利的在往前走那我們希望在這個預定潛力長子的時間都可以完成那我們也真的很順利在走那再稍微小小的這個宣傳一下我們去年的風機累積的裝置量其實是全世界第五"},{"start":8150.08,"end":8152.368,"text":"你講話聽得到嗎?你講話聽得到嗎?你講話聽得到嗎?"},{"start":8156.361,"end":8182.14,"text":"靠近一點靠近一點好因為我看到的風氣我到處都有去看漢堡 德國 北邊 北海內蒙古我們都去看了我們也是有在做功課的那個是風長穩定 緯度高沒有颱風地震也相對少的地方他們的風力發電的成本成本很低"},{"start":8185.623,"end":8191.227,"text":"都用不完那我們這邊東北季風台灣海峽又淺風又急然後颱風又多"},{"start":8197.313,"end":8214.823,"text":"這個採風機那麼貴 受得了嗎我一直到現在 還有這個大大的疑問那你們的目標是500隻 1000隻還是到現在300多 增加到500多這樣很挺外商跑掉了 現在變成中鋼 台電自己在賣是做得到嗎"},{"start":8227.148,"end":8240.78,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們潛力場直到明年之前的這個廠商基本上呢廠商都沒有跑掉而且都在進行中那我們台電的案場也在施工中目前台電有兩個案場"},{"start":8241.977,"end":8259.149,"text":"第一個案場是示範案場,它其實已經完工,已經在運轉了那第二個案場是潛力場址,目前在施工中,那目標是今年會完工好,OK,好,那謝謝那第二個我要請問部長,那你們可不可以回答一下我們現在的聯席要怎麼做?"},{"start":8263.024,"end":8287.321,"text":"就沒有以前惡佛、惡力甲烷、惡佛勢力甲烷等等那就是汙染嘛那後來就改成現在的那個什麼就是R124還是R125因為惡佛、惡力甲烷以前是說它不會分解然後它可以飄到大氣層會把臭氧層都燒掉打破洞對不對"},{"start":8288.956,"end":8296.988,"text":"佛力燙化物所以現在改成這個就沒問題了嗎?R14對R14還是R什麼?R134R14吧多少?R14吧"},{"start":8305.578,"end":8325.89,"text":"沒有浮氯碳化物來來來現在我們就是跟委員報告浮氯碳化物我們就是依照蒙特樓議定書管制然後他有現用逐步到禁用那他會用這個HFC來取代那我們也會依蒙特樓議定書的時程來管制好那再來今天要特別提那個"},{"start":8327.546,"end":8350.666,"text":"PFAS嘛是Perchloroalkyl Substance這個在醫界是聽到都要嚇死的以前都疾病好那這個東西已經用一段時間了已經到處都摻這個東西那怎麼今年去年才開始又熱起來是什麼原因 柏定"},{"start":8351.707,"end":8380.976,"text":"是有人想要賺這條錢還是沒有這個其實在2008年就施德克某公約就有了啦2008年我們其實稍微慢一點點但是其實就很努力的去希望有管制所以去年我們就抱怨了提出一個管制的一個方案挂部會一個計畫啦所以的確是有管制公告來進行那管制因為這個東西好像吃到人體裡面差不多一兩年會排泄嘛"},{"start":8381.616,"end":8395.171,"text":"那不容易排出那排泄之後在大環境中是不太容易分解嘛我經常去看我去培養的細菌,譬如益生菌或乳酸菌我就把它分解可以分解塑膠,可以分解水,這樣"},{"start":8401.502,"end":8429.573,"text":"我在想應該有可能有一些硫化物的細菌它是可以分解無積物的喔所以這道都叫新生物學加下去不然的話這個是無解嘛那現在它是佛皆嘆嘛就是我們講的會產生這些毒物啊我們等一下吃便當那個便當裡面的這種薄膜那個就是這種凍凍的不然的話便當坐在那邊就燙了那一定沒辦法就把它解開"},{"start":8430.626,"end":8443.432,"text":"現在既然你便當放在那裡,我們吃一杯,我吃,劉建國、趙偉也吃,吃一吃,吞吞下去,如果放多久,信是跑到食物裡面更多,我也不知道,沒人去檢查,吃一吃下去,他死就死,不死就死,"},{"start":8450.658,"end":8473.19,"text":"所以你這什麼是要安保物不是 根本報告 其實公約有禁用的物質像PFOA PFOA是那些它就不能用到這個食品保采區所以國內我們也都是按照這樣來講所以現在如果有的部分是是沒有禁用的物質放進去的但是因為PPS是一個很大的家族有些已經開始禁用了 有些還沒有"},{"start":8474.189,"end":8495.314,"text":"我跟你講喔,我朋友在做那個晶片的,他們說這種東西,他佛去接矽控,接出來就是什麼咚咚的,我們那個手機上面什麼薄膜那個是非常非常非常貴的,全世界四家工廠在做,台灣根本不會做,所以那種東西就是晶片在用的"},{"start":8496.614,"end":8524.139,"text":"對不對 沒錯吧那個有沒有毒性 那當然有啊所以這個科技的進步是很可怕的那我們環境部在跟著後面跑那歐盟講常常看到東西就訂了一大堆那我們就跟著走我們永遠都在跟著後面跑啦那科技界一直在發展我們這個也沒辦法所以你現在訂這個我們不可以贏我們現在每天都在吃在贏"},{"start":8525.399,"end":8542.879,"text":"那有什麼辦法跟委員報告就是不能用的我們禁掉以後他就不會用進去那當然他會有替代產品像我們碳比如說九個碳八個碳慢慢管下來管到六嘛四個碳就還沒有列管因為他在這個危害的分析方面還"},{"start":8543.399,"end":8564.173,"text":"那我們那個便當那個膜那個自己看那個膜也不是都只做這個因為他還有其他的塑膠膜這些是可以在食品等級可以用的那部分是沒有問題啦但是對於我們已經禁用的話就不能再去用在這邊好那最後的問題最後是一個剛剛那個圖前期很多人都問那個綠林綠林你現在村人這麼年輕"},{"start":8568.217,"end":8576.583,"text":"那是要做什麼?他很多工作,現在兩萬兩千個工作機會,等著大家去工作是要去輔導?還是要抓人?沒有啦,這個是幫助大家走到未來的工作機會啦當然剛剛那個圖先生說的,圖委員說的勞工,比較勞的這個我們會再跟勞動部來討論想辦法"},{"start":8594.795,"end":8606.244,"text":"你不要找一些高階的 有那個程度高他本來就比較好找套路啊啊現在老的 現在比較基層的 要訓練到有什麼初級的還可以到中級 這樣可以改觀我們的就業啊這比較重要吧好 謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":8623.926,"end":8628.348,"text":"你已經未來就是綠巨人啦來,好,休息十分鐘"},{"start":9327.967,"end":9343.596,"text":"好 休息時間到我們繼續開會接下來請林淑雯委員來做詢問謝謝張偉 是不是請我們彭部長來 請部長"},{"start":9350.014,"end":9362.746,"text":"林委員好部長你今天的這個PFAS管理這個行動計畫和環境荷爾蒙的管理計畫我想大概我都問過了那我也要求了那你今天應該是很開心"},{"start":9365.248,"end":9383.187,"text":"就我個人所質詢過的我也要來肯定你今天是等於是做球給你我不敢不敢因為我記得我5月21號來委員質詢我這個花了半個小時那完了之後我就很努力的跟同仁在談那我們也努力想要做出一些成績"},{"start":9384.729,"end":9407.367,"text":"做出成績是最重要我們質詢的目的不是為了上報 列為紀錄質詢的目的是為了改變是那在這裡我必須要肯定你的改變譬如說在今年的5月13號你們公告修正了列管毒性化學物質及運作管理事項公告抱歉我是不是看錯了沒有 沒錯"},{"start":9411.203,"end":9424.087,"text":"Anyway 就是說把擴大更多的列管進去然後在飲用水上面呢你們也訂出了水污染防治措施及檢測申報管理辦法在排放水的時候要監測"},{"start":9428.349,"end":9432.534,"text":"然後在廢水的部分有監測在飲用水上面也有一些本來就有的納管然後再做更多的監測在環境監測上面你們去年年底就已經完成了國內15條河流底泥和雨堤的"},{"start":9443.647,"end":9466.126,"text":"你的採樣分析然後完成了淨水廠的檢測然後掌握了這個土壤和地下水PFAS的濃度的趨勢這個都是我當初要求的但是呢我的意思是說我們要的就是說具體的改變在那裡不要像食藥署食藥署今天報告在那裡食藥署署長又不能夠來就是這樣"},{"start":9468.436,"end":9488.966,"text":"署長你講這個笑死人了 你聽聽看你自己怎麼聽下去人家質詢完是要你做改變然後你的法規要改要納管然後你今天有委員質詢你說你訂出標準了嗎你的食品容器訂出標準了嗎你說我繼續研議"},{"start":9490.347,"end":9507.144,"text":"口頭上你這樣講然後你的書面報告說什麼對環境部公告禁用的百項的PFAS物質本部會宣導會宣導食品包裝容器的這個容具的業者不得使用宣導"},{"start":9510.755,"end":9522.552,"text":"報告委員 這邊環境部公告508項不能用其實就是禁止使用我們在按照食安法使用的話我們會按照財閥物的部分是你的部分我也質詢過啦就衛福部我們也質詢過"},{"start":9526.858,"end":9545.914,"text":"食品包裝包材禁止使用PFAS的期程規劃在哪裡PFAS的食品風險評估在哪裡在食品的監測計畫裡面食品受到這些污染或是因為包裝包材受到污染那你的監測計畫是什麼"},{"start":9548.53,"end":9558.739,"text":"你不可以說PFAS是我的專業我會全力以赴然後你到立法院來我諮詢過了你們業務單位都知道到立法院來說我們會宣導你到這裡來只有剩下宣導一種功能"},{"start":9564.454,"end":9569.94,"text":"你的政府做到最後只叫做宣導你覺得這什麼政府 這什麼食藥署署長你的專業 你的專業又如何當你的專業不能成為政策不能成為法規 不做任何的改革你的專業不好 不好署長 你的專業是要來服務人民"},{"start":9586.676,"end":9612.078,"text":"現在是在這裡我有同樣的諮詢過兩個部門諮詢完人家部長他們該改的法規該納管的物質該訂的期程該做的監測人家在報告裡面寫我幾年幾月幾日我做了什麼我改了什麼法規你今天你實要屬你的報告書面報告在這裡你只說了一句本部會繼續宣導"},{"start":9614.52,"end":9643.692,"text":"宣導其他講的都是廢話這立委也會講的廢話這個叫政府喔謝委員我們508項因為昨天環境部這邊特別有公告357項所有的508項在食物包裁的部分我們全面禁止使用如果使用就是違反食安法的第16條我們現在要問你你們食品包裁禁止使用你公告在哪裡"},{"start":9646.341,"end":9652.764,"text":"毒性化學物質以外那現在已經在使用的在怎麼樣你有去抽測有去檢測有去監測那些業者都知道嗎我們便當盒你有抽測過他們是不是還在用你知道嗎每天買的早餐炸薯條炸薯餅當初我們質詢的時候就跟你講連大的麥當勞連其他的通通都不標準都還繼續在用你說你禁用他們還繼續在用"},{"start":9675.713,"end":9696.413,"text":"謝謝委員這邊的提醒我們其實今年度我們特別也針對食品跟食品器材的包裝容器的部分我們做了PFOS的相關調查那涉事風險評估我們一定會調查盡速的把這項我現在要問你你什麼時候告訴我們說你公告禁止使用公告在哪裡你把幾年幾月幾日公告什麼法規你唸給我聽一下"},{"start":9699.197,"end":9718.67,"text":"這邊跟委員報告我們就帶回去我們積極的研議啊 謝謝還在研議喔一定會積極辦理研議你沒有公告全部禁止使用啦在這裡還可以直接睜眼瞎說然後有公告禁止使用的有沒有用不知道啦"},{"start":9720.764,"end":9735.763,"text":"環境污染 間接進入身體食品包材 包裝 直接吃下肚哪個比較嚴重當然是衛福部 當然是食藥署管理的是重中之重而委員 我 至少我本人也質詢過"},{"start":9737.915,"end":9758.921,"text":"沒好啊 質詢過又如何 沒好所以今天在這裡檢驗一個行政部門我是拿環境部來給你看人家的書面報告是怎麼寫你的書面報告是怎麼寫一看就知道不當一回事好 謝謝 署長請回我現在要再問 再問部長另外一個問題合一合二合三"},{"start":9762.856,"end":9775.996,"text":"部長你今天有接受採訪合一合二合三昨天修法了要重啟可以重啟重啟要不要做環評我再給你一個回答的機會"},{"start":9777.784,"end":9799.182,"text":"報告委員因為過去其實按照環評法的開發行為實施環境影響評估的細目跟認定標準29條第一項所以目前來說的話如果是新建添加機組工程或是核子反應設施的廚藝要環評但是目前的這個規定的話既有的核能電廠運轉執照換發或展延它其實是不需要的"},{"start":9802.096,"end":9818.347,"text":"你不知道既有執照到期換發或展延這個在最高行政法院判決過這個當然是需要這個不是就權力的延伸因為他這一張執照就是40年40年以後你還要再繼續給他這個叫新權力的賦予"},{"start":9831.863,"end":9851.793,"text":"新權力的賦予當然要重啟還平更何況他過去40年一次都沒有做過所以你現在應該要做什麼你知道嗎如果根據最高行政法院的判決你應該要把重啟"},{"start":9854.041,"end":9859.144,"text":"納入到開發行為應實施環境影響評估的細目及範圍的認定標準為什麼當初沒有做因為做夢也沒有想到有人會拿核電廠老舊不堪的核電廠還來開玩笑說可以重啟大家都做夢都沒想過你知道國際在評估一個核電廠"},{"start":9881.258,"end":9901.292,"text":"他的風險評估他用的是U型理論他最容易發生核災就是在剛開始的U的剛開始還有使用期限的後半段的最後最後中間運轉的中間是最穩定的所以不管山泥島福島車諾堡就是這個理論最危險的"},{"start":9905.168,"end":9934.352,"text":"而今天不是什麼抽完零件更新不是什麼保養就可以解決很多是沒有辦法再更新的而他們要開玩笑也沒關係他們要拿核災來開玩笑但你你不可以在這裡隨便說不用還平憑什麼說不用還平他的執照40年他的權利已經到齊了40年沒有做過任何還平"},{"start":9935.81,"end":9950.763,"text":"現在大家都以為要除役了他說要重啟重啟 我現在再跟你溝通一個概念再講一遍這個是新權力的賦予絕對不是舊權力的延伸"},{"start":9953.317,"end":9976.976,"text":"這樣你聽得懂嗎?聽得懂在法理上是這樣子?對其實過去這一年我也跟我同仁探討這個問題我也的確覺得是蠻奇怪的因為以前沒有還平那如果重啟要還平竟然是按照現有還平法規不用還平所以委員這個部分我想我回去之後再跟我同仁或是找一些律師專業的朋友這個爭執啊在我們修礦業法的時候就談過"},{"start":9981.451,"end":10003.083,"text":"修跨越法的時候就說我國家特許權給你20年20年重新審核你的之後到底是就權力直接延伸繼續核定只能允許只能繼續給你繼續延長還是說這是一個新權力的賦予我可以準博通通都可以不是只有准許一個選項"},{"start":10005.898,"end":10020.846,"text":"後來就是這樣子明定在新修的礦業法裡面這個在法理上的論辯很久絕對不是第一次所以我才告訴你是最高行政法院的判決就是這樣子寫了"},{"start":10023.305,"end":10033.635,"text":"所以你們內部的人如果告訴你說這個是依法無據的免還品的那我要告訴你這是胡說八道的好 謝謝那我先來講我會來進行這個探討研究給我一點時間"},{"start":10038.086,"end":10060.144,"text":"我希望你今天的採訪回去應該要再想一下是不是應該重新再思考一下絕對不是就權力的延伸所以新權力的賦予所有一切都要重跑一遍如果要重啟的話那一定肯定是要還平的沒有那種不用還平的好 謝謝委員 謝謝這樣子幾分了"},{"start":10065.046,"end":10078.523,"text":"因為我的質詢都還沒有開始因為我今天的質詢都還沒有開始他說我超過了那我下一次再來好了因為"},{"start":10083.661,"end":10099.882,"text":"因為剛才那兩個問題很重要雖然不是我今天本來要諮詢的目標因為今天的題目我已經都講過了問過了那部長也做了一些改進了也做了一些改革了所以我就提一下但是這個"},{"start":10101.355,"end":10103.476,"text":"還平的事情,核電廠,老舊核電廠要重啟,絕對需要還平"},{"start":10128.56,"end":10136.964,"text":"好謝謝主席也謝謝林淑英委員謝謝頭不是很好請多保重那我們就麻煩副部長副部長來謝謝"},{"start":10142.581,"end":10161.1,"text":"王偉豪部長好今天針對這兩個主題來跟部長做一些討論包括綠營人才的培訓還有就是有關於環境荷爾蒙對台灣民眾的影響最後會稍微談到其實我們很擔心環境荷爾蒙"},{"start":10161.981,"end":10174.241,"text":"對我們台灣女性尤其在乳癌的部分真的是很值得我們關心我們開始針對這個綠齡人才的部分那今天的部長報告裡面也針對綠齡人才的需求"},{"start":10175.22,"end":10202.23,"text":"不管是在量或是在未來的一些教育方面多的琢磨所以我們想要再特別的了解看看針對這樣的人才我們在各領域上面有哪一些麻煩這個部長再加強的地方目前環境部一共有盤點了12項的這個領域在過去8年裡面需要提出有超過1.5萬個人的需求"},{"start":10203.069,"end":10231.568,"text":"在各個領域裡面其中醫療保健跟環境衛生業是佔了第六個需求他每一年需要有2170以上的這個人才培育的這個需求那其實各個領域都有這樣的需求的同時我們也希望了解說目前這個滿足的這個佔比差不多會多少那未來針對這些如果佔比還有需要加強的部分有什麼樣的方案可以讓這樣的需求可以充分的滿足"},{"start":10233.001,"end":10250.119,"text":"報告委員因為我們這個因為過去這個算法有一些所謂的職場的專家教授他有作為一些推估可是那個推估並沒有真實的去找到到底幾個人在那個產業去做工作那我其實之前看到那個數據我都覺得"},{"start":10251.721,"end":10263.797,"text":"那個數據很不實在啦所以我們去年就用一個做法就直接拿人力銀行的WANTED就是說上面有實際上的工作的職缺然後有多少例如說剛剛委員說的這個電子資訊跟軟體半導體業它是最多的4300人就是它現在"},{"start":10270.525,"end":10288.794,"text":"掛在上面要求的就4300個人在那個地方等著大家去去去申請這個工作所以基本上這個我們認為這個是比較務實知道這個狀況但是真實在這個產業裡面他有多少人在工作我們目前還不知道那我們未來呢會努力的想要去得到這個答案那這樣會更好"},{"start":10289.634,"end":10311.835,"text":"是因為我們也針對這個問題請教過國環院就是國家環境研究院國環院的給我們的答案是說有需求不代表未來所需要的從業人數所以這個到底這個需求還有直接在從事這個從業人數之間如何達到好的平衡這個也是未來要麻煩貴部除夕來"},{"start":10312.795,"end":10335.112,"text":"處理的部分那我們也比較擔心的就是說因為各行各業他的領域可能會不一樣當然他有基本的需求就好像一個通財通勢教育一樣可是不同的領域的時候他可能會針對於這個需求必須要有比較特殊的培育那目前我們所了解的就是大部分的這些教育"},{"start":10336.033,"end":10353.271,"text":"培育聯盟的架構之下是由國環院來統一提供教材那這個算是比較屬於整合式的而且是算是比較通財式的那針對不同的領域不知道後續的處理有沒有其他的規劃"},{"start":10355.273,"end":10370.313,"text":"謝謝王委員我們是第一波事實上應該是第二波我們第一波是我們自己國安院自己辦那第二波就是跟32個大學做聯盟合作那剛剛委員講我們現在叫通採就是一般領域都可以施用的那下一步我們現在就要掛加值課程"},{"start":10370.894,"end":10396.326,"text":"那加值課程有像我們最近跟醫療部分因為醫療比較特別所以他們有些特殊的需要我們就另外一個package去做加值那或者像碳補儲碳補存就是各個領域需要的專業人員我們就是第一個搭配那第二個是各部會有一些比如說金融人員他有各自的獨立課程所以我們到時候會各部會合作之後有需要開我們加值課程我們會掛在我們的綠領人才這個聯盟裡面讓他去發揮他擴散的效果"},{"start":10396.906,"end":10413.332,"text":"好 謝謝劉院長這方面的說明 也因為這個醫療院所真的是不是說他有特別到多特別 可是我們也知道其實醫療本身關乎的就是人民的健康還有這個醫療的照護 所以他對於"},{"start":10414.593,"end":10440.653,"text":"這個這一類的領域的這些需求會還是會有一些不同所以我們在上個禮拜二也針對在總諮詢的時候也跟部長討論說那這部分是不是要有一些策略跟不同的考量我想第一點跟第二點部長之前也說明了非常的清楚那針對醫療機構的特殊性我們理解就是在這個醫院要做好的"},{"start":10441.554,"end":10469.111,"text":"有品質的這個醫療服務還有很多需要不斷電的措施不管是在加護病房的這些呼吸器啦或者是在開大房過程當中所碰到的一些需要有特殊的這種情形之下那將來有沒有機會來提供比較屬於專案型的這個ASCO的方式來協助醫院同時在做醫療服務做這種很特殊需求之下還有在接能之間如何取得好的平衡"},{"start":10471.291,"end":10495.896,"text":"因為這個ASCO醫療特性我們是跟經濟部合作我們是負責私立醫院經濟部有負責公立醫院大的私立醫院的部分我們現在是由環境部我們循環署免費的提供這個ASCO所以我們額外挪錢出來做這個事情目前預計到7月底可以完成33個場域來做這個事情但是我知道這個是屬於一個比較大的"},{"start":10496.616,"end":10520.735,"text":"大的用電比較大的這個醫院啦中小型的目前還沒有我們是先抓大的私立醫院我們有環境部來負責那至於說公立醫院像像台大榮總等等的那個就有經濟部他們來做協助好雖然說他只佔全國這部分的淨零未來4.6%可是畢竟如果這方面沒做好而且是這麼特殊的這個行業的需求之下"},{"start":10521.215,"end":10538.197,"text":"我們還是期待能夠透過環境部的努力把這個該做的事情做到一個好的程度那再過來就是有關PFAS的這個處理的方式我們從今天部長的報告裡面也知道大家針對這種環境"},{"start":10540.529,"end":10563.969,"text":"在不得已之下會受到的這些污染 而且這是非常惰性就是幾乎他可能好幾千年幾乎都無法去消除他對環境影響的這些分子 如何能夠有效來處理那部長在這個報告裡面有提到這個PFAR的主要作為就是包括有這個源頭管理環境檢測還有環境"},{"start":10567.811,"end":10588.042,"text":"監測以及相關技術的研發等等那這部分尤其是對於這個霧泥的這個進化我們如何能夠有效的去改變它對環境在這個已經造成的影響之下如何能夠去改善這個土質啊或者是相關環境的影響那這部分有沒有相關的議題正在研究中"},{"start":10589.082,"end":10606.429,"text":"跟委員報告尤其是水質或者是放流水那還有地下水現在目前都有一些改善的技術在研究當中國際上對這方面也都在持續的在做研究我們也都在收集這方面的資料"},{"start":10607.35,"end":10624.308,"text":"的確它是一個很困難的問題所以就是說為什麼在世界廢水裡面的標準全世界各國現在目前還訂不出來因為它的處理技術也好或者後面的這個應該說處理完之後還要再處理所以這裡是還在持續我們會來"},{"start":10625.269,"end":10639.506,"text":"就是有它的困難的挑戰所以才是給我們一個機會所以我們有看到說黑水盲其實黃協會方委員剛剛在質詢的時候有提到相關如何能夠透過黑水盲這樣的生物"},{"start":10640.607,"end":10664.207,"text":"來幫助我們台灣的環境的改善那這個是成大的一個碩士生的一個研究他們透過黑水盲希望能夠有效來減低這個污泥裡面PFAS的這個濃度那他們的初步研究的確也看到一些成果所以很期待不管是他像黃委員所提到用在處理各方面的這個"},{"start":10665.867,"end":10693.719,"text":"透過生物技術的再利用那也希望這部分也有機會能夠不管是跟農業部或是相關部會可以共同來研究相關未來這個有關於黑水盲對台灣的這方面的幫助是我們來納入後面的一個評估是好再麻煩這個這邊持續來關注那這種河川底泥的採樣那個相關的標準我們目前看到就是會"},{"start":10695.68,"end":10712.214,"text":"從2001年到2010年好像有降低的趨勢可是降低的趨勢到什麼程度目前是沒有辦法看到很詳細的資料那可不可以提供本席相關的資料在一個月給我們做一個參考是 我們有留步調查的資料提供給委員"},{"start":10712.654,"end":10729.552,"text":"OK好那再過來就是有關於環境惡夢的部分我們知道環境惡夢對台灣民眾的影響是蠻明顯所以希望能夠納入這個本土健康的建設跟流行病學的了解那這邊有一個論文可以提供大家的參考"},{"start":10731.014,"end":10751.311,"text":"臺灣的這個癌症尤其是在乳癌的部分它的發生率還是在上升當中對民眾健康的影響其實是很明顯那臺灣女定乳癌比較特殊的就是它相對是比較年輕的相較於國際歐美國家是年輕的10歲左右那似乎"},{"start":10752.792,"end":10775.674,"text":"有環境荷爾蒙的曝露好像跟這個台灣年輕乳癌的發生是有相關性所以民眾其實對於這個女性乳癌尤其是年輕女性乳癌希望有更多的了解的同時我們希望這個環境荷爾蒙造成的影響是也要非常非常的注意所以我們也希望能夠有更好的研究方式"},{"start":10778.457,"end":10787.723,"text":"處理需求我們會跟國務院有一些合作的計畫我們來研究好那就麻煩大家持續努力謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝謝謝好好接下來請劉建國委員"},{"start":10811.963,"end":10825.549,"text":"好那我們就請劉宣國召委進行發言好謝謝主席請有請環境部的彭部長好請彭部長"},{"start":10828.809,"end":10849.997,"text":"召委好 部長好 部長今天被肯定多過於被質疑批判的謝謝 跟部長恭喜也代表環境部在部長的帶領之下 相關的因應還有積極的作為 受到委員會 應該是多數委員的肯定這其一那其二 也要請教部長就是說 如果詢問你一些比較沒有挑戰的事情你會不會覺得比較有氣無力"},{"start":10853.214,"end":10870.307,"text":"舉例什麼事情?兩件事情,第一件事情來看,剛剛黃前召委、黃旭芳委員特別提到這個垃圾混化爐的一個處置的過程,那我當主席的時候是聽你講說,它還是回歸在地方政府的相關的這個調配的權利,"},{"start":10872.448,"end":10891.376,"text":"但是我也提醒不是這樣喔過去的政策是要先是一份化爐在八十幾年代的時候當時全國既然一個縣市要一座文化爐的情況之下要這個文化取代掩埋既然當時高達的規劃是36座"},{"start":10894.158,"end":10920.461,"text":"台灣又不是中國怎麼會有三十六座又不是有三十六省對不對不管他後來的行政區域怎麼去做合併調整也不可能有三十六座所以當時的政策儼然是非常錯誤的這樣的一個誇大擴大的不實的這樣一個狀況所以一直走到後來是當時的環保署自己去調整修正才從三十六座直接就砍了十座了"},{"start":10921.121,"end":10929.907,"text":"可能所有那時候就變成有26座已經不管是從公辦民營還是民辦民營VOT到VOO等然後還有兩座是26加2其中就是講的第27座那27座是在台東對不對但是當時給台東的這一座叫做"},{"start":10943.677,"end":10953.348,"text":"備而不用啦 備而不用因為坦白講 26座的福諾魯要來處理台灣所延伸出來的產生出來的不管是家務垃圾還是4175已經綽綽有餘了啦然後第28座是哪裡"},{"start":10959.554,"end":10982.045,"text":"是我的故鄉雲林叫做林淚魂化爐當時我們跟他叫做切身未明後來又更正這四個字因為他是環評作假被抓到然後相關當時的首長被判刑甚至也都去執行了也都執行完畢了所以最終這一個第28座他不叫做切身未明應該叫做被判死刑"},{"start":10983.547,"end":11010.656,"text":"他絕對沒有辦法再死灰護藍因為就剛剛林淑媛特別提到的你的救全力然後這個救全力你不去履行然後你造假你要想要再去在地限地的去重啟環評那個造假的環評怎麼有任何的條件所以被當時的法院判決這個環評實屬無效那除非你當時被判決的這個因素又被廢棄"},{"start":11011.776,"end":11026.414,"text":"才有在提原地去重啟還品的這樣的一個機會嘛不然是沒有了啦細節我就不再贅述那那個時候全國卻已經確定就是不管是公辦公允民辦允允就是這26座奈何"},{"start":11028.797,"end":11044.46,"text":"又不曉得什麼原因台東這一座從這一個被我不用變成現在正式再啟用那也又加一了那這個中間民進黨開始在再度執政的時候就想當了總統的時候又找了環保署"},{"start":11045.181,"end":11071.408,"text":"相關的包含經濟部開了相關的會議之後決定要去更新我們整個將近十多年二十年的這些葷號爐的設施所以我們也匡列了蠻多的預算這預算也是來自中央也是來自當時的環保署哪有錢補助給人家通通沒有任何的指揮權通通沒有任何的調度權"},{"start":11072.912,"end":11088.85,"text":"通通還是要依照地方政府他想怎麼樣就怎麼樣他想市議會區域的收取量大過於家務垃圾他竟然可以自己去決定然後環保署完全沒有辦法自走完全沒有辦法去指揮"},{"start":11090.404,"end":11117.525,"text":"好 那就牽涉到什麼牽涉到來修法了嘛 對不對所以我們就在107年就在 大家就一起討論啊當時跟署長跟副署長跟相關的這個主管機關的同仁就坐下來如何讓我們這一個垃圾的目的處理胡鬧魯的目的世界主管機關它是回歸到中央的環保署就是現在環境部"},{"start":11118.912,"end":11143.629,"text":"絕對沒有那個說我們今天補助錢,包含能更新設備,多多是中央全有的補助,我們竟然沒有任何的調度權,這講不過去嘛。所以在匯金網第28條裡面,部長可能要再看一下,非常清楚,也就是處理家務垃圾有餘養的時候,你才可以再去另收取其他的這些失業會期物去做處理。"},{"start":11144.728,"end":11156.29,"text":"這非常清楚非常清楚連相關的對應的法則都定出來所以我是請部長可能要小心因為當有人在追尋你這個事情的時候"},{"start":11157.401,"end":11174.083,"text":"這絕對不是在有地方政府他可以直接不聽中央的指揮調度而且我們把那個火力電池非常非常必要性的授權給我們的中央主管機關有這樣的一個權力跟權限那相對的補助還是在中央"},{"start":11174.864,"end":11186.828,"text":"所以我是提醒部長有這件事情好不好好 謝謝委員好 那第二件事情是這樣剛剛特別提到就是依據環境部有頒布的這個綠營人才的就業趨勢報告為什麼講說綠營人才是未來台灣的綠巨人"},{"start":11193.75,"end":11211.216,"text":"講這個就來呼應部長的積極作為嘛2024年全台有近3600家的企業釋出綠領值缺嘛不少嘛所以平均每月需求高達2.2萬這個人才缺口是直追AI產業的2.9萬人會不會超越我認為會會嘛對不對好部長也認為嘛這個未來隨著法規的區域或國際減碳"},{"start":11219.215,"end":11239.488,"text":"這個壓力的升高預估未來5年綠領持缺將有1到3倍的成長空間AI未必有對不對所以我們絕對有機會超越所以市場對於這個具備探管理與減排知識的人才需求將持續攀升所以因此環境部在3月成立了所謂"},{"start":11241.41,"end":11255.749,"text":"這個淨嶺綠嶺人才的培育聯盟在北中南東市區設立區域培育計畫然後給國內的28所大專院校讓民眾就近可以接受這個淨嶺綠嶺人才的培訓課程"},{"start":11256.81,"end":11284.59,"text":"沒有錯嘛 你看部長跟那個林院長大家笑得合不攏嘴那我們看到這個立委員彩的未來的希望嘛同年啦 同時這個4月1號開放第一班的課程上網報名沒有40人沒有就40人在16分鐘就額滿 跟搶這個演唱會的門票一模一樣所以部長會講說 上這個課程就像買一張很好的不會下跌的股票啦 這樣補充說的那這麼High的課程 我想"},{"start":11285.57,"end":11311.289,"text":"應該所有人都會支持部長去推嘛尤其這麼好的課程也一定要照顧弱勢因為這個窮不能窮到教育嘛部長應該可以認同嘛所以整個培育的課程有四八小時一萬二但是相對對一般家庭也是有一點點小小的壓力嘛所以環境部還針對青年宣誓這個弱勢提供了什麼鼓勵更多青年與弱勢族群的參與"},{"start":11313.36,"end":11331.457,"text":"課程提供以下這個學位優惠方案30歲以下大學碩博在學生享有半額補助6000元嘛低收入戶享有全額補助一萬二沒有錯嗎?對這跟部長特別肯定啊有低收入戶為什麼沒有中低收入戶"},{"start":11334.346,"end":11355.404,"text":"這不就很難肯定啊對不對經費的關係來跟委員報告一下因為經費的關係所以今年你們經費是因為被這個立法院把你刪掉所以你們就要捨棄中低收入戶因為經費上要籌措所以當時就先以這樣的規模來定那或許我們因為一段時間會檢討那到時候看看經費額度我們再做調整大概會這樣子"},{"start":11356.144,"end":11377.337,"text":"對啦,但是你看到齁,如果我們對比嘛齁,這有來下的,有由看有嘛齁,沒有由自己想就對了齁,但是這有樣可以看啦。這一步齁,這個學校學財會解免辦法第三條規定,低收入戶免除全部的學財會,中低收入戶學生還要解免學財會60%啊,對吧?是。那我們為什麼不能比照辦理?"},{"start":11378.681,"end":11396.273,"text":"因為你上面有一個減六千這一個等於是七千二這個會很多嗎?有評估過嗎?如果都沒有,你就說我們經費不夠所以我們就先低然後我們中低就不要那也不是很奇怪"},{"start":11398.764,"end":11420.594,"text":"我們明年如果有碳費有一些預算的話就不能窮教育也不能因為做這樣的補助然後有這樣的差別的對待的對象這不屬於彭部長個性這個也不是很大的挑戰如果這個經費這麼少就是讓你們覺得很少那可能是讓部長有挑戰"},{"start":11423.073,"end":11443.028,"text":"不曉得應該可以挑戰成功啊跟委員報告一下我們今年因為預算我們現在可以再去籌措一些錢那我們再來調整這補助的方法對阿不只中低收入啊還有身心障礙者啊各位不要誤會一般都會覺得是中低產"},{"start":11444.059,"end":11471.562,"text":"但是中低收入不一定它是慘啦有中低慘的朋友當然你更需要去照顧只要你中低收入把它放進去這就全部照顧得到但是對身陷障礙者你看嘛部長你的第一個是30歲以下大學碩博在學生嘛就享有那你知道身陷障礙者其實他要在我們這樣的職場是非常非常困難的"},{"start":11473.09,"end":11479.355,"text":"那你這個只是一個鼓勵也不一定會很多人來報啦我講真的嘛但是我們就把這個可以"},{"start":11482.307,"end":11511.357,"text":"照顧的對象我們開闊一點不為過啦 真的不為過啦是不是可以索賀一下我們來挑戰一下好啦 我這次強調你絕對經得起挑戰啦所以我們就要從一週內全部人從教育齁針對這個課程減免的辦法從現在來做一些研議更正啦好不好好 謝謝部長謝謝委員 對因為我接下來要講的說你看喔 你在你在補助這個在學的這些大學生碩博生啦齁你看"},{"start":11512.372,"end":11534.602,"text":"提高青年學生願意來這個上課的意願所以4月1號這是秒殺的第一班部長可以看4月26號在國立台灣師範大學所謂上課這個獲得相關的統計資料平均年齡37歲社會人士八成以上那據碩士以上的學歷有達73%學員的職業有工程師、醫務人員行政助理、會計、總務、大學、教師等這我們補足一半"},{"start":11539.332,"end":11553.183,"text":"沒有沒有,30歲以上就1萬2我現在平均37啦,30歲以下你補足一半嘛你不要被扣外圍,不然就被拋掉了我是不會讓你外圍這麼多扣分喔但是你看這個參與率就這麼高所以我是覺得說是不是老花鼠我剛才用教育部來做比喻"},{"start":11566.494,"end":11587.552,"text":"老公屬於一個叫做產業人才投資計畫補助參訊勞工80%、100%的訓練費用每人三年內最高補助十萬我不曉得環境部這樣的計畫就應該跟勞動部好好的對接讓勞工在進修的時候可以使用這樣的補助計畫可以嗎?你不要坐下去說話,不然會被人家怪"},{"start":11590.285,"end":11608.42,"text":"那個洪部長有跟我約時間了,要不要來討論這個事情?有約,但是還約不到,所以沒有討論。會約好時間了,但是還沒開會,這個禮拜就會開會。就還沒有開嘛,對不對?你們兩個人能約,我可以幫你們約啦,我也可以當電燈泡。但是底下的木鳥都還沒有作業嗎?不可能吧?"},{"start":11609.44,"end":11621.565,"text":"有討論了跟就是說立法院開完會我們至少跟勞動部已經開會四次了已經四次了已經有四次了吧所以到現在是一而不決"},{"start":11623.12,"end":11645.42,"text":"而是這兩步之間的相關的這種思維跟行動跟都還有很大的這樣的落差還差細節的問題主秘可能可以講得更清楚主委簡單回應因為時間超過了跟委員說明一下現在這個32所學校裡面如果是在產投計畫裡面其實只有17所學校"},{"start":11645.925,"end":11660.609,"text":"是可以在我們的產投方案裡面去對接這樣子的補助資源那其他後續的學校如果後續有開班我們再來協助運用產投的這個方案的計畫來補助我請教兩位嘛也要請問部長如果你們計畫趕快去認定出來對失業勞工進入到這個領域裡面進入綠領人才培訓課程問證之後對整個失業有沒有幫助嗎"},{"start":11670.891,"end":11689.765,"text":"喔這當然有幫助對嘛 好嘛那你看這個 文化署這邊也有有一點點經費對 這個計畫如果你們研擬好之後對整體會有幫助怎麼不趕快就兩部的部長就趕快坐下來就訂了嘛就趕快實施嘛可以吧"},{"start":11692.04,"end":11715.536,"text":"這個應該不太有挑戰還是很有挑戰還是誰要出比較多錢還是怎麼樣我們本來就可以支應這個經費啦可以支應這樣的經費在我們的產投計畫裡面就可以支應這樣的經費嘛對不對但是就是細節的部分要怎麼樣去借這個有錢你們細節要看這麼久那個沒錢就還去想辦法有錢不對吧一個星期內可以吧"},{"start":11717.964,"end":11743.456,"text":"環境部跟勞工署共同研議勞工進修及失業勞工的相關補助計畫可以嗎可以一個禮拜那個組長在那裡說可以組長說可以好那對不起我這邊就歇一下我要求環境部跟勞工部對近年歷年人才的培訓課程第一週內針對這個課程解免辦法重新研議應該納入這個中低收入及身心障礙者第二一個月內"},{"start":11744.436,"end":11746.718,"text":"環境部跟勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動部勞動"},{"start":11768.35,"end":11795.518,"text":"也謝謝部長這邊的答詢下一位林靜縣委員林靜縣委員林靜縣委員不在下一位葉元芝委員葉元芝委員葉元芝委員不在下一位請吳立華委員發言謝謝主席有請環境部長請彭部長"},{"start":11798.252,"end":11815.269,"text":"吳委員好部長好 部長今天安排的主題是綠色轉型人才培育那我跟您分享 其實我在去年的8月我有召開一個園鄉碳會的公聽會那今年的4月我也有召開地熱公聽會"},{"start":11818.032,"end":11844.178,"text":"那5月26號呢會辦理一個立法院氣候韌性與能源永續發展促進會的成立大會藉著這個平台也邀請希望你那天能夠來給大家鼓勵那為什麼我要做這件事情實際上是因為很多我們的能源的開發或者是像這個現在最需要的這個攤會在我們原鄉有自然攤會"},{"start":11845.518,"end":11866.976,"text":"很多人都會來找我們的族人可是族人呢並不清楚甚至他們會覺得現在詐騙猖獗會不會來的這些人都是詐騙集團那也有可能他會變成一個詐騙的溫床因此公部門的一個介入其實是很重要的會讓他們有安全感"},{"start":11867.737,"end":11886.825,"text":"那現在我在那個每一次的公聽會裡面其實我講的最重要的一件事情就是我們不要在自己家的土地上面去做人家的故宮這是很悲哀的一件事情所以我們很希望的就是人才的培育所以自然攤位來講探驗證 探盤查"},{"start":11890.146,"end":11892.869,"text":"我覺得這一些都是我們原住民必須要參與其中我們應該要成為別人的合作的一個partner所以在這個部分很高興就是我們環境部也有這樣的一個想法"},{"start":11907.465,"end":11924.965,"text":"113年11月22號環境部有提到有跟原民會延商原住民族的綠領人才培育所以我特別想要問一下部長請問延商的結果是怎麼樣今年度有沒有什麼具體的計畫要跟原民會一起來做綠領人才培育"},{"start":11929.468,"end":11951.546,"text":"我們跟園民會有做過多次協商那基本上我們本來期待是可以用專班去幫忙原住民的那邊的原住民來參加這樣課程不過因為園民會因為今年受到預算凍結的影響所以他們原規劃那個補助方案才專班好像今年度有點困難那他說期待明年會做今年度用的方式他現在"},{"start":11951.886,"end":11966.608,"text":"以現有經費他可能用所謂的指派人員到我們的專班的方式處理所以是今年原民會跟我們的目前的模式是這樣子的那請問一下那這些所謂上課的費用有沒有減免補助"},{"start":11968.191,"end":11985.902,"text":"原民會會處理這個部分所以確定會有補助會有減免我剛剛都聽到了中低收入戶也都可以啦身心障礙都可以啦那我們是氣候變遷下的受害者公正轉型的對象要不要減免"},{"start":11987.002,"end":12009.23,"text":"針對袁樹民的那個派員來的 園民會已經答應他會全額來付助的學費好 那謝謝 會全額補助好 那其實我一直都很關心從之前溫管法要修正為7000法的時候那個時候我就是一直在講園民會有沒有角色 那個時候是沒有的那我看了一下我們這個地方112到115有一個國家氣候變遷調適行動計畫"},{"start":12013.772,"end":12040.725,"text":"看到在能力建構的部分有看到園民會有角色但是回到能力建構的細項去看的時候又看不到園民會所以我是覺得這個園民會其實是蠻悲哀的經常會被大家不知道要放在哪裡可能覺得他們也不知道要做什麼事但是沒有關係我今天有看到因為我在預算提案的時候就特別關心你們有提到114年5月"},{"start":12043.766,"end":12064.48,"text":"會有一個本部邀集各個部會來強化原住民族委員會的角色這是你們解凍報告裡面說的因為我有做這個預算提案那請教一下原民會今年1月已經成立淨林永續發展小組那預計你們會跟他們對接要做哪些項目"},{"start":12066.441,"end":12088.991,"text":"跟委員報告目前是先由這個禮拜國發會會先邀各個部會來討論調適衝擊的領域那接下來我們也會再接著這個會議邀那個園民會來討論接下來在調適領域的工作項目所以還是要給他們工作任務啦好那為什麼我這樣關心因為要有任務啊"},{"start":12090.325,"end":12117.687,"text":"像這個溫室氣體管理基金 溫管基金管理委員有沒有原住民族代表報告委員 目前沒有法規我看也沒有強迫要對 也沒有強迫要但是部長您認為要不要我認為其實這個第一個是一定要有一個用途的就等於是說我們會把這個工作例如說我們未來決定這個經費分配裡面原民一定要有一個可以參與的部分這個我是同意的所以一定要有原民代表嘛"},{"start":12118.388,"end":12130.925,"text":"目前我們會透過諮詢的方式能夠來找因為原名代表如何產生出來也是一個蠻大的一個工程所以未來也希望委員給我們一些意見一定要因為我們都在談足群主流化更何況"},{"start":12132.236,"end":12156.961,"text":"原住民在這個當中他不僅僅是脆弱群體公正轉型對象我覺得我們可以更積極的來看待原民會的角色或原住民的角色我們有生態智慧有山林知識甚至這些山林資源原住民是固有主權是他的固有主權所以我覺得這個部分千萬不能夠沒有原住民主代表好嗎 部長好 我們來努力"},{"start":12158.081,"end":12173.457,"text":"那這個部分我會關心當然有委員在裡面因為他就會有碳費的收入的支用所以這個部分部長你剛才有提到了應該會規劃有一些的比例是用在原住民族地區對嗎"},{"start":12174.718,"end":12194.451,"text":"對就是說但是那個項目如何定因為我們還沒有開會開到那個程度好那至少我們也去因應了嘛我們有修法版本所以呢過去沒有寫現在我們把它修進來去新增像原住民族地區自然資源及生態多樣性的維護教育宣導事項原住民族地區"},{"start":12195.231,"end":12199.655,"text":"溫室氣體減量產業的補助跟獎勵的事項我想這個反正就是我們希望增加的項目也許院版你們有更好的一些想法我們都樂觀其成那在這邊就是特別針對這個部分那希望呢可以來訴求我們不論是綠領人才的培育或者是淨零碳排溫室氣體管理的基金都希望我們的部會因為我要跟部長說"},{"start":12224.754,"end":12233.26,"text":"我們的原轉會在賴清德總統上任之後就解散了但是他的意思是說"},{"start":12234.884,"end":12261.175,"text":"階段性任務完成現在應該要回歸到整個部會每一個部會要在部會裡面去落實原住民族的轉型正義所以希望能夠顧及到族群的主流化然後跟原民會靜林永續小組有一個密切的合作那這個部分我希望說我這邊因為常常會有人問那接下來我們也會成立一個立法院的次團"},{"start":12261.835,"end":12278.388,"text":"所以希望在一週內可以來辦公室讓我初步能夠掌握一些資訊可以嗎好沒問題好謝謝部長好謝謝主席謝謝吳立華委員的發言謝謝部長的答詢下一位何新淳委員何新淳委員何新淳委員不在"},{"start":12279.59,"end":12292.227,"text":"楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在下一位鄭正琴委員鄭正琴委員鄭正琴委員不在下一位林柱英委員林柱英委員林柱英委員不在下一位徐富凱委員發言"},{"start":12305.446,"end":12317.234,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們彭部長,還有我們經濟部產法署的周副署長,能源署的鄭副組長好,徐委員好"},{"start":12325.326,"end":12340.982,"text":"部長還有我們的副處長副處長好那我想今天的主題是有關於推動這個綠色轉型的一個政策那當然本期這邊也特別關心我們這個整個我們綠農的一個發展尤其我們核三廠二號季在5月17號"},{"start":12342.043,"end":12360.134,"text":"除以之後我想大家都很關心我們整個台灣的能源政策所以有幾個問題要請教部長跟我們相關的主管部長我想我們台灣過去發展太陽能產業的部分業者最近有一個觀察到一個狀況就是"},{"start":12361.495,"end":12386.667,"text":"中國透過一個東南亞國家稀產地的一個疑慮非常的嚴重那尤其美國特別針對東南亞四國進行的一個太陽能電池的長達一年的一個貿易調查的結果也出爐了那裁定了我們東南亞四個國家消美的大部分的太陽能電池科與一個很高的一個關稅那尤其是柬埔寨的產品被科與超過3500%的一個關稅相當的嚴重"},{"start":12389.989,"end":12413.272,"text":"那請教部長跟我們相關主管我們目前也憂心這個東南亞的國家因為大陸透過他們的一個國家的扶植透過一個息產地的一個方式他們的產品目前沒辦法銷到美國但是有可能就鎖定台灣是一個銷售的一個目標那尤其我們最近掌握到一個數據太陽能一個模組的整體進口量"},{"start":12413.752,"end":12423.022,"text":"一直呈現正成長尤其今年1、2月進口的量就佔了我們國內需求的五成那不曉得我們鄉面單位有沒有掌握這樣一個情緒"},{"start":12425.431,"end":12446.748,"text":"跟委員報告經濟部跟財政部這邊有成立一個小組專門監視太陽能模組的一些相關的進出口的狀況那剛才委員所提的一二月的狀況確實是我們都有在持續的關注當中如果有傾銷的情形我們會請這個相關的工會提出按照這個傾銷的規定來向提出相關的一個申請"},{"start":12447.951,"end":12471.176,"text":"我想副市長我們的動作要加快了既然美國都用這樣一個強力的手段來遏止這樣的一個洗產的一個疑慮那我們也不能置身事外尤其我們國內的這個太陽能的需求一直都很大那有沒有可能經濟部還是我們相關部會針對這樣的一個方式我們進行一個緊急防衛稅的一個措施有沒有這樣的一個規劃"},{"start":12472.75,"end":12496.025,"text":"緊急防衛稅還是要由業者來提出那經濟部這邊會來做統籌評估跟財政部一起合作來做處理所以這部分是可行的如果有提出的話就可以啟動程序那這個程序大概要多久的時間可以完成防衛的部分是針對全球不是針對固定的國家針對特定的國家的話是用反警消"},{"start":12496.889,"end":12516.417,"text":"好那目前因為我們知道的狀況大概就是中國的大量的傾銷的部分那甚至他們透過假外資的部分假外資就是用比如說我們東南亞的國家來標了我們一些的案子那因為尤其像我們的公家機關現在有很多這個屋頂的一個太陽能的一個面板"},{"start":12517.657,"end":12533.956,"text":"我們的廠商他們都會透過一個無人機的一個系統來觀測這個設施的狀況甚至用來做一個清洗面板那有沒有可能像我們一些軍事基地就透過他們透過這樣的方式做一些勤制的一些收集我們有沒有方法用這個狀況"},{"start":12538.569,"end":12547.09,"text":"這個每個機關在採購的時候他們都會在採購的時候都會有一些基本的要求像軍事的部分應該都會排除一些非紅供應鏈的一些設備"},{"start":12549.104,"end":12573.978,"text":"這個確實要查一下因為我們就有掌握到說有一些假外資的狀況那確實就是大陸的一些資金進來透過這種方式他們的目的不是要做這個太陽能啦是要收集我們的一些軍事的一些情報啦這個狀況很嚴重所以務必要注意一下那針對我們公有的一個team sale的部分我們是不是有要求這個我們國產化的一個比例這部分副主有掌握狀況嗎"},{"start":12579.277,"end":12602.977,"text":"這個部分我們可能需要再進一步掌握狀況這個如果有需要的話我們事後再回報給委員這應該也要注意一下不能總是用一些中國大陸的產品危害性就很高我們也要扶持我們國內的產業也必須做國產化的部分另外我想再請教一下我們的部長"},{"start":12604.946,"end":12634.606,"text":"我想屏東過去這個我們有這個砍頂焚化爐那使用的年限也已經從2000年開始運轉到現在已經超過20幾年那我也知道您一直很關心這個所謂的一個運轉能量那尤其過去除了一些民生的垃圾之外還有很多事業廢棄物處理所以造成這個樣子一個使用的一個壽命甚至這個營運的狀況有出現很大的一個問題有沒有機會再怎麼樣針對焚化爐的一個改善部分做出一個有效的一個替代方案或規劃的部分"},{"start":12637.109,"end":12648.106,"text":"是跟委員報告 當然文化爐的效能降低的時候他們是會用引進民間資金來做改善那目前屏東也是準備這樣子在做"},{"start":12649.895,"end":12677.735,"text":"但是就是因為常常故障常常要修理垃圾就一直在堆積所以造成衍生我們另外一個仿留掩埋場的問題垃圾越堆越多常常因為像現在夏天最近就發生過好幾起火災事件這部分是部長我們要一併去檢討焚後爐跟掩埋場的一個問題是跟委員報告他們整改的進度已經到最後了目前正準備整改完之後起爐那就慢慢會消化掉"},{"start":12679.069,"end":12698.276,"text":"確定嗎?那部長那針對垃圾野脈廠的部分,我想你之前在媒體都一直報導希望針對有一些能夠不要露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露露"},{"start":12703.24,"end":12726.64,"text":"那小琉球也是一樣,因為我知道你有過去小琉球對,小琉球的話狀況是跟委員報告小琉球它是我們鼓勵它運回來第二個是它在那個地區做成倉儲室的所謂倉儲室就不要漏天它有雨盆等等遮住它在轉運的時候對環境影響會比較小"},{"start":12727.541,"end":12751.53,"text":"因為小流小鮮也是一個很重要的觀光地帶我想我們也是希望在整個這個環境的部分不要造成對觀光的一個衝擊那尤其這個管理的部分也是希望我們環境部能夠給予我們縣政府更多的一個支持力道好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝徐委員 謝謝部長接下來請羅明財委員羅明財委員不在請陳北宇委員來做詢問"},{"start":12758.134,"end":12759.562,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請部長"},{"start":12763.872,"end":12788.021,"text":"陳委員好 部長好快速跟您討論一個事情就是關於部長您之前在那個洪山翰委員現在是勞動部部長的協助之下您到台北市有一個非常重要的協會去跟地方的拾荒者一起工作體驗地方拾荒者的辛苦那當時部長您也發現全台拾荒者有列明造冊的拾荒者他們回收貢獻量佔全台灣的9%而清潔隊也只有10%"},{"start":12790.842,"end":12802.994,"text":"也就是說如果再加上沒有造冊的我們相信應該遠超過這個數字那拾荒者他們現在面臨的困境我知道部長您之前有研究也有做非常多協助先謝謝部長那我們今天想要跟您討論的是"},{"start":12804.594,"end":12814.083,"text":"來下一張他們現在遇到的這些困境有非常非常多我相信後續應該我們在環境部可以更多的協助我今天想要跟你一個討論一個比較簡單的問題來下一張可能相對容易第一個回收空間不足的問題那事實上在南非有相關的case"},{"start":12822.11,"end":12851.63,"text":"他們是讓拾荒者工作還有綻放回收物的空間這個是由公部門來承擔相關的設置跟規劃當然相關的資源主要是希望當這些地方的拾荒者他們的工作環境可以變得更好那也可以不要讓社區居民對他們造成反彈跟不喜歡他們堆放這些收回收的物品在自家門口其實也會影響到社區居民的感受來看下一張部長您之前到台中去考察這個案例你還記得嗎"},{"start":12852.59,"end":12871.923,"text":"台中有全台灣第一座社區零廢棄示範基地這個基地結合了社區企業學者那有相關的機制相關的鼓勵措施還有相關的鼓勵居民參與的活動我們在想有沒有機會我們在台中以外由部長您直接想像一個空間來設計這個可能性"},{"start":12874.779,"end":12902.393,"text":"我們當然是希望這種零廢棄在台灣越來越多對 因為我剛剛說他可以他可以協助地方的拾荒者也可以增加社區居民的參與甚至我們未來在做學童的環境教育這也是一個很重要的面向那當然我知道在六都要找到這樣的地方有困難可是事實上很多地方的拾荒者他們的工作也多在六都主要是因為六都產生非常多的廢棄物所以相關的回收業者當然也就在六都可是如果六都的地又這麼貴空間這麼難尋"},{"start":12903.974,"end":12917.623,"text":"我們有沒有別的可能性來想這個事情首先我們就是要跟地方政府來合作所以台中這個案例是跟台中市政府合作對不對民間團體那這個空間的使用的"},{"start":12924.947,"end":12930.552,"text":"是承租這個空間嗎民間團體來承租這個空間社區發展協會社區發展協會好太好了那我剛已經講了部長之前已經去過五角辦所以五角辦或者是其他的相關組織如果也有這樣的意願那工作量也許可以來規劃承擔所以可不可以請您再說明他是跟民間團體合作然後呢"},{"start":12944.063,"end":12966.577,"text":"相關的運作方向大概會是什麼那如果是說以台中市這個案例就是社區協會他會提供這個空間由我們的主婦聯像主婦聯這種我們的民間團體他去協助他那就可以來做一個比較好的一個發展跟規劃那如果是說有社區或者我們的民間團體來做那我們這邊環境部願意來一起來推動這件事情"},{"start":12966.917,"end":12981.844,"text":"OK 所以環境部那一天之所以會去考察看這個基地主要是因為環境部也有一些角色或是資源在裡頭嗎你們合作的方法是什麼目前是沒有但是我們也希望未來可以讓它做得好可以擴大的話讓我們願意投入變成一個示範場域"},{"start":12982.964,"end":13011.093,"text":"好所以聽起來不管是台中這個現在有民間團體自力經營然後跟更多的公民團體一起合作那部長其實是去採經啦是去國內考察去學習他們或者是我剛剛說的那個南非那個基地喔那對對就這個南非基地所以我想喔共同來去想像一個新的可能在台灣目前有沒有機會推動第二個所以我們辦公室可不可以積極的拜託環境部有沒有機會參考國外跟台中的案例在公有的空間有沒有一些公有的然後"},{"start":13011.833,"end":13020.328,"text":"也許現在暫時沒有用到的一些空間做規劃的可能我說的是先提出規劃報告不是開始做 是先做規劃報告有機會嗎 三個月內做規劃報告"},{"start":13023.294,"end":13052.467,"text":"那我们会来这个提出就是跟一些社区或者民间团体来谈谈提出这个规划的方向好不好三个月内好不好我们一起来努力看看因为我觉得有更多这样的案例对台湾绝对是好事因为部长我刚刚跟你说了绝对超过9%的这个回收数字绝对是我们很重要民间的力量好不好虽然可能拾荒者在大家眼中看起来有很多大家的不理解但我认为透过正面环境教育的案例绝对让更多人可以理解这件事情那他们的贡献也可以被台湾社会看见"},{"start":13052.867,"end":13065.672,"text":"好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席 藥哥我沒有超時好 謝謝 謝謝所以請你三分鐘你也不能超時 這個請藥委員來詢問好 謝謝主席 主席請一下彭部長來請部長 開始計時"},{"start":13081.311,"end":13095.87,"text":"姚維好部長好部長根據法國在2019的研究大概我們可以得出一個結論就是氣候政策"},{"start":13098.14,"end":13119.332,"text":"能源價格跟勞動力技能的相關性它呈現的大概是這樣子就是能源價格長期變化會使技術人員的比例增加9到17%大概啦那體力勞動者的比例減少"},{"start":13121.396,"end":13133.996,"text":"4到8%這個算是還蠻大的幅度的變化歐盟跟英國 英國脫歐以後歐盟跟英國大概都有透過"},{"start":13136.56,"end":13158.18,"text":"專用的基金來對於受影響的對象也就是這些因為需要的體力勞動的需求降低所以對這些對象提供協助那我想要問一下我們環境部在正式徵收碳稅以後會不會有相關的"},{"start":13163.288,"end":13185.801,"text":"的處置報告委員您說的這個就是公正轉型啦齁那這個部分我跟那個勞動部的洪森漢部長有的確我們兩個面對面開會討論過這個事情因為5月1號那個我記得很多的勞工團體有提出一個訴求就是委員你提的那個訴求那我們在那個5月1號之前我就跟那個洪部長有見面面對面討論的"},{"start":13187.502,"end":13213.494,"text":"說我們要如何合作但是目前的細節我們預計這一兩個禮拜就會開會我們有約的時間那就是委員你提到的這個關鍵的問題我們就希望來解決那目前的確啦我當然說我有跟洪部長說未來我們有碳費啦但是洪部長說勞動部的資源比環境部大很多啦所以目前這個部分未來我們希望可以趕快來解決這個事情"},{"start":13221.657,"end":13239.187,"text":"勞動部的缺口比環境部大我覺得缺口不過這跨部會反正你們就是去做溝通協調協調出一個比較好的政策方案出來根據"},{"start":13244.56,"end":13258.658,"text":"環境部的報告我們國環院從113年開始開始規劃建置力領人才的資訊平台大概6月份就要上路"},{"start":13260.259,"end":13281.894,"text":"像美國勞工部的職業資訊分類網站建制就業人才網其中分析各項綠色產業人才的職務內涵包括工作內涵、薪資待遇、工作環境、所需職能、可取得證照"},{"start":13285.839,"end":13305.276,"text":"相關的資訊供民眾來尋求來尋找職缺的時候參考請教一下環境部是不是可以跟勞動部來研議接近這樣子的一個網站讓國內的民眾更了解綠色產業工業的範疇"},{"start":13309.783,"end":13333.883,"text":"跟藥委員報告一下我們現在正在建構這個綠領的人力資訊平台我們希望提供的是一站式的服務所以剛剛委員提像各部會像勞動部、金管會還有經濟部其實我們都希望在這個平台裡面提供它第一個培訓資源包括相關的綠領相關的資訊都會在這裡面那我們這建構的平台大概預計六月先上線那測試之後我們當然也會參考像美國這個要不要再做"},{"start":13334.483,"end":13336.504,"text":"功能上的擴充我們會來繼續評估這樣對就是6月份先上線然後我們就是"},{"start":13344.488,"end":13364.654,"text":"一邊做一邊檢討我們需要做調整因為有些可能需要新加的資源進來因為綠林的範疇本來就有點浮動所以我們要做檢討這個為什麼這樣子問呢因為就各國的分析指出未來的綠色產業人才的需求會很高"},{"start":13366.354,"end":13375.15,"text":"歐盟研究機構也指出如果有正確的進行政策支持到了2023年光是歐洲可能要創造100到250萬個就業機會"},{"start":13381.129,"end":13399.118,"text":"我們環境部在2024年也推估目前只有7%的真材企業開出綠能工作需求未來5年有1到3倍的空間對不對對沒錯那就是說"},{"start":13401.317,"end":13421.578,"text":"所以環境部今年會成立淨齡綠齡人才培育聯盟由環境部跟大專院校在北中南東淨齡人力培育中心每年至少培訓3500人"},{"start":13425.1,"end":13431.337,"text":"我想要問一下就是每年3500人怎麼來因應未來的需求"},{"start":13433.961,"end":13457.821,"text":"跟委員報告一下這是我們因為我們第一年自己辦的時候大概1000人的規模那我們這次是因為教材重新編定之後我們跟32所大學院校合作然後先第一年先做測試大概這個量能是不是足以因為我們每半年會做人力趨勢的滾動檢討那我們看這個培訓的量能跟就需求的狀況是怎麼樣那我們會未來會調整這個量能不是因為"},{"start":13461.397,"end":13485.437,"text":"我們現在自己也有預估嘛那我在看每年三千五可能跟預估出來的是有落差的對不對對我跟委員報告因為除了我們環境部的培訓以外其他我剛剛講金管會勞動部或其他部會也有一些培訓所以我們是要整體去搭所以我剛剛跟委員報告我們每半年會做一支滾動式就是我們有人力趨勢的發展報告"},{"start":13486.698,"end":13502.747,"text":"我們看各界的需求跟供給之間要怎麼要做搭配做下一階段的調整我們用這種方式比較跟實際比較能夠吻合我們現在想法是這樣子因為有需求所以就會有很多補教的產業出來"},{"start":13507.096,"end":13523.039,"text":"我問一下就是說我們怎麼對於坊間有一些虛偽不實的訓練資訊等等相關的現象去做一個管制"},{"start":13523.539,"end":13542.344,"text":"報告委員因為那個是屬於民間自己的行為啦但是因為我們來之前我記得去年的時候委員也提出過這樣的收個30萬幾十萬的那樣的課程那經過我們推動過去半年推動這樣的一個成效之後其實那個相關的廣告就少很多了"},{"start":13543.044,"end":13562.137,"text":"我相信政府出來我當然說政府不見得做得非常非常好但是我們至少提出一個版本讓大家可以依循然後等於是說讓這個市場恢復到一個正常的狀況這個是我們努力的目標啦對就是補教的系統我們並不排斥"},{"start":13563.158,"end":13585.723,"text":"可是呢必須要控管他的職那我們公部門按照剛剛講的就是北中南東這樣子的一個官學合作我們盡量把未來的需求人力盡速的培養出來好不好好謝謝部長謝謝主席主席我也沒有超時"},{"start":13589.807,"end":13592.028,"text":"好 謝謝 接下來請盧縣議員來做詢問主席有請部長盧委員好 總務好"},{"start":13610.393,"end":13630.453,"text":"那我昨天看到部長在花蓮也就是說可能就針對我們環境不近鄰綠綠人才培育聯盟你說32所大學院校嘛那昨天那個場域是慈濟大學在花蓮東部的那我想說關於這個綠綠人才有沒有想過成立一個單一的科系呢"},{"start":13631.631,"end":13648.496,"text":"單一的科系因為他因應未來這麼龐大的一個事業或者是說新的一個領域如果單一的科系是不是會更好來招生報告委員像師大他們就戲改名就永續所"},{"start":13649.176,"end":13676.492,"text":"那當然就基本上大家都會等於是很多人都會去報考那當然啦因為這家系所是屬於教育部或是大學的一個權責啦這個我們環境部沒有辦法去增列科系老師建議說如果就這麼重要的話是不是有一個所謂的綠能系啊這樣會不會更能夠把我們所謂的專業人才能夠迅速的培育起來好那現在還是在計畫性的一個層級嘛對不對對對對已經在做了已經在做了"},{"start":13678.192,"end":13696.178,"text":"就針對上次我有質詢你在大運的時候看到美國的一個趨勢也就是說關電的一個設施可能在2050年的時候是最大的一個percent那我有考過你說大概1000戶的時候大概要13.35甲的一個關電設施才可以應付這樣的一個未來的需求"},{"start":13696.758,"end":13719.657,"text":"所以我們就相對我們來台灣來講我們台灣地產人手山地形又比較多嘛那結果我們現在獅子鄉又發生了這樣同樣的問題齁那大概一二年他們有開過部落會議反對設置關店然後一三年七月呢縣政府有發案給他們說如果部落不同意他說本府不會同意使太陽關店的開發可是昨天我就聽到呃呃"},{"start":13721.699,"end":13746.786,"text":"村民的陳情說現在還是有動工的跡象所以在下面一個就是說縣政府他有希望業者能夠再辦一次說明會可是這個權衡之間其實他們都我是希望環境部能夠知道說其實縣政府很像有要放水的感覺然後也有看到主委有看到他們在動工的現象所以希望環境部這邊能夠關心這個議題好不好"},{"start":13748.206,"end":13773.041,"text":"好 這個我們會來瞭解一下 因為這個是屬於原住民法他們的一個諮商的一個權利啦 跟我們環評是除非他的這個量 他的面積很大 那當然超過15MW就是必須到達 因為上面都有公文的那個號 還有地號所以希望相關人能夠去分析 我們再來去了解這個案例好 下一個 就針對今天的我們的題目來說我想先問部長 綠領人才你覺得要具備哪些能力"},{"start":13773.912,"end":13787.869,"text":"基本上他對汽油變遷或是未來的淨零碳排有一些基本的了解然後甚至會一些簡單基本的碳排查也就是說當企業要賣掉淨零的時候這個基礎的人才他可以協助找到對的人來幫助這個企業來做發展"},{"start":13790.448,"end":13814.749,"text":"結果我查了以後 結果他需要的才能還真的很多還有所謂他需要critical thinking有批判性思考 還要會active listening 還要會很會傾聽第三還會做ranking 很會做所謂做級別的一個判斷那有一個很簡單的縮寫叫STEMS就是科學 T就是科技 E就是工程 M就是數學"},{"start":13815.47,"end":13825.052,"text":"也就是說以後的專業人才綠領人才的專業人才是STEM這個領域來去培養好 下一個其實我們常常看到我們的所謂的"},{"start":13825.97,"end":13849.773,"text":"那個標章那其實標章有什麼好處呢其實會尤其是對中小企業他們會增加他們的一些收入甚至說我在這個這個環境工作會有優越感所以我們是不是也可以比照說我們有盡量可以去有這些綠能啊或者是這些環保的標章給他們給中小企業來用這樣以後如果他在尋求所謂的生涯規劃的時候"},{"start":13851.454,"end":13877.936,"text":"這些年輕人或者是想要從事這方面事業的人他就會去尋找這樣的公司呢或者是產業呢來投入這方面的一個綠能產業包委我們是現在環境部跟我們行政院在規劃就是說綠色採購的量要增多也就是說企業他如果有做的一些產品那經過我們認定他是屬於綠色的那當然我們就會給他一個相對應的標章就鼓勵你去採購這個綠色這個是我們是有的"},{"start":13879.737,"end":13901.182,"text":"那至於說企業它是不是綠色的現在其實大多數有很多 例如說RE100或是相對應的那個組織 那個都是民間自由的去籌組啦那我們官方的話 其實比較少會去發當然我們有一些表揚 例如說它是環保企業 這個是我們有在做那我看到說現在的那個綠領人才大概是到5.2%增加增加5.2% 你說2.2萬人嗎"},{"start":13903.522,"end":13930.883,"text":"那我看到國外的研究說大概8年會增加到24%所以大概你會要這樣一個規模你才會知道那也就是說現在我們在看整個勞動市場的話如果一直持續推動我們這個綠色產業的話會增加哪些工作項目看一下它會增加當然會增加就相對比如說會減少污染的工作也會產生一些工作也就是說它可以去做替換比如說它原本是做傳統的"},{"start":13933.384,"end":13956.515,"text":"現在是做太陽光電是第二個第三個就是說它也會排除一些工作比如說過度包裝的這些產業也會不見了也會造成一些工作會轉型然後甚至會造成一些工作的一個轉移比如說我們台灣可能比較注重環保所以一些產業會轉移到東南亞比較注重環保的一些工作所以這些所謂的labor market"},{"start":13956.755,"end":13971.625,"text":"可能在這個部分也是要跟勞動部去討論說以後你在做力量人才的培養的時候你是不是要把這方面所產生的所削減的去做計算然後做合理的做10年或者是5年的一個規劃是不是這樣"},{"start":13972.165,"end":13987.746,"text":"好謝謝委員這個其實我們跟勞動部我跟洪部長有一個默契就是說因為我相信洪部長也蠻懂的氣候變遷的所以我們會組成一個平台就是探討這個細緻的問題啦因為我覺得這個轉型過程當中一定是跟未來一定跟現在不一樣"},{"start":13988.086,"end":14015.396,"text":"然後看那個這個報告裡面啊每次那個我在看很仔細看的時候都看不到園民會所以每次都等15個部會的時候就沒有園民會其實你要考慮到原住民立委一直在沒辦法教育部、內政部、經濟部然後念到最後就等15個部會的時候會覺得根本就沒有把園民會放在裡面好不好所以你在培養人才的時候這些比較關鍵的字眼還是要有這樣我們就有被尊重的感覺好不好下一頁"},{"start":14016.156,"end":14040.325,"text":"其實我們就針對工作的一個置換或者說以後會被保全會被增加的時候其實他們在歐洲的國家也有做研究比如說這是以英國為例你看如果是做飲料的他可以所謂的CREATE的4萬多個工作可以保全9萬多個工作其實他都是一個很有品質的去很精算去可以了解說未來的產業的發展"},{"start":14041.445,"end":14055.388,"text":"所以我希望我們環境部、勞動部這邊可以做更細緻的規劃以後在我們在年輕人或者是我們未來的傳統產業他們想要轉型的時候他們就有一些依據我們來一起努力謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝好 謝謝盧委員 謝謝部長接下來請蔡議員來做詢問"},{"start":14071.138,"end":14084.072,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們是有請環境部部長那請部長農業部農業部農糧署農糧署 農糧署然後副組長副組長 副組長副組長好 蔡委員好部長"},{"start":14089.673,"end":14117.291,"text":"部長我們嘉義那三區這幾年這個較高族然後因為染病這個農糧署不知道清楚嗎那這個較高族大概這個染病面積不斷在擴大從過去大概1500公尺以上差不多嘉義的十里川以上那現在看起來往下蔓延表示這個病菌在擴大那較高族的這一個染病就代表著他"},{"start":14118.447,"end":14134.596,"text":"要恢復種族大概就是不可能了因為他染這種病齁 等於他發出來跟UAR就衰 衰得軟硬軟硬的就沒辦法繼續長所以未來這個地方大概要種植恢復種植竹木沒機會了"},{"start":14136.141,"end":14157.842,"text":"沒機會了,所以現在大家都在探討說,這片森林怎麼辦,以前都靜靜的嘛所以我就在想說,如果我們有在發生了這樣的一個染病的時候我們是不是要去思考說,未來這裡是不是就是讓這些過去種植竹林的這些鄉親,未來抓給他們來開始來造林"},{"start":14161.744,"end":14177.09,"text":"就用其他的樹種那要讓他們去種植其他的樹種呢當然我們希望這個種植其他的樹種是會讓他們維持生計所以是這一項我們現在在討論說我們要有這些綠人的人才最好的人才就在這裡我們這裡有這麼多的竹農現在這些竹農他們未來他們沒有辦法採收這個竹筍以後我們要吃竹筍會變成吃昆尿的事情"},{"start":14188.936,"end":14192.8,"text":"沒理由就順著總統之下讓他們順勢的轉換他們的過去的一個生活習性他們從竹林轉成灶林然後透過取得碳匯的模式讓這一些過去的竹農變成綠能的人才這是一個風險"},{"start":14213.62,"end":14235.12,"text":"謝謝委員 這個的確是一個方向啦那關於這個竹林或是森林我們這個氣候署他本身都有通過一些方法學所以的確現在如果說農民願意去種有一些好的方法的話的確他是可以獲得我有看到你們幾個方法學不過你們方法學比較重視的就是說我種植"},{"start":14236.1,"end":14264.199,"text":"竹林或者是我種植樹木然後到一個程度就把它撤掉因為它主要是在長大的那一個階段是最有最有碳匯的所以這些東西如果我們可以讓在地的我們在地的這些竹農他們轉換然後你們要去打輔導讓他們有辦法適應他們整個未來他們就轉成造林而且造林對於我們這個地方以後的整體的景觀也會變得很漂亮如果他們可以順勢造林成功的話"},{"start":14266.155,"end":14286.231,"text":"這個我們跟農業部已經有在合作在討論這個事情有針對這裡在討論嗎?這裡可能還沒有,今天第一次看到沒關係,我跟部長提示,因為目前大概農業部我覺得這應該不是農糧署主責,應該是林業署主責林業署的想法,他最想要用基海啦你比那些主領全部都錄到"},{"start":14289.894,"end":14309.709,"text":"他們大概是想說就是造林了,因為這個土壤一旦被污染,細菌在土壤裡面,他們就沒辦法進,掉到沒辦法進,所以林業署這個做法也是一個做法,但是這個做法少了公民參與,少了這一些農民的參與,事實上我們應該讓社區的人一起投入"},{"start":14310.609,"end":14322.332,"text":"整個不管是造林然後創造碳匯然後把這個碳匯的價值留給我們這一些基層的農民我覺得這個方向比較對那林務署大概他覺得這個可能還要跟農民去溝通怎樣那可能比較耗礦日廢時所以想要用比較快的就是設計一個標案然後就叫企業來標企業去大家的地方錄調然後讓他們去造林我覺得這樣"},{"start":14339.618,"end":14341.266,"text":"跳過了太多太多程序"},{"start":14343.004,"end":14371.682,"text":"事實上跟地方溝通我們也都可以來協助溝通那怎麼樣透過讓地方的社區的居民來協助造林然後可以取得相對應的價值這件事我們環境部在這一個事件上我們好好的介入然後把這一個地方的危機化成轉機我感覺這個就是一個最好的機會好 委員我們來試看看啦不過依照我們過去的經驗那個面積要大啦可能要萬家超級大有沒有100公頃"},{"start":14372.823,"end":14377.329,"text":"我們這裡可能破千公頃了那我們來研究過去我們的地鐵都在這裡我們的地鐵都從這裡來的現在這個有點是災難性的一個感染是全面 全軍覆沒的所以這是未來這裡一個"},{"start":14390.123,"end":14409.661,"text":"一個因為細菌然後產生的這個災害很嚴重我有感覺這個時候環境部適時介入然後給他們開出一個正確的方向這個是一個很好的好不好好委員我們來研究一下跟農業部一起面積不用懷疑真的很大整片整片沙灘都一樣受災害好不好好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝蔡委員謝謝部長"},{"start":14420.425,"end":14446.622,"text":"本日會議選打全部結束那委員廖偉祥所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定第一報告其選打完畢二委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員應要求其限責從其所定本日會議到此結束現在休息星期四上午九點繼續開會謝謝"},{"start":14456.986,"end":14457.767,"text":"好啊 好啊 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請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有無遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處好 那我們議事錄確定那我們現在介紹在場委員陳永康委員徐巧欣委員好 那我們介紹列席官員好 這個部長顧立紅先生副參謀總長執行官黃志偉上將"},{"start":1829.537,"end":1854.996,"text":"常務次長黃宥明中將全民防衛動員署署長李定忠中將總督察長市副總督察長周景榮先生參事石文榮中將政務辦公室主任孫立芳中將政治作戰局局長陳玉玲中將"},{"start":1857.257,"end":1884.508,"text":"軍備局局長林文祥中將主計局局長謝其賢中將軍醫局局長蔡建松中將戰略規劃司司長黃文綺中將資源規劃司司長藍靜婷女士法律事務司司長沈世維中將整合評估司司長苗慧芬女士國防採購司主任趙雅萍中將"},{"start":1886.294,"end":1901.497,"text":"政風市主任簡國興先生人事市主任陳榮宏先生人事參謀次長是次長林佩志中將情報參謀次長是次長謝日昇中將作戰及計畫參謀次長是次長連志偉中將後勤參謀次長是次長李鳳翔中將"},{"start":1915.302,"end":1930.714,"text":"通信電子資訊參謀次長是次長鄧恩林中將訓練參謀次長是次長郭俊德中將陸軍司令部參謀長陳建義中將海軍司令部參謀長邱俊榮中將空軍司令部參謀長李慶然中將後備指揮部陣戰主任胡瑞勳少將憲兵指揮部參謀長呂正芳少將"},{"start":1944.909,"end":1969.218,"text":"陸軍後勤指揮部參謀長梁永坤少將資通電軍指揮部參謀長周文祥少將軍事情報局執行長鄧倫仁少將電訊發展事主任郭志國中將國防大學教育長李承中少將國家中山科學研究院院長李世強中將"},{"start":1971.952,"end":1996.574,"text":"行政院主計總署專門委員 邱碧竹女士請議事人員宣讀報告及討論事項報告事項二 處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議國防部主管預算提出書面報告後 使得動資等46案第一案 本部第一幕向下 法定編制人員待遇預算凍結200萬元案"},{"start":1998.24,"end":2009.511,"text":"第二案 本部第一幕向下基本行政工作維持預算凍結100萬元案第三案 本部第一幕向下業務費預算凍結100萬元案第四案 本部第一幕向下對國內團體資捐助預算凍結10%案"},{"start":2013.354,"end":2033.534,"text":"第五案本部第二幕向下整合評估中業務費預算凍結20萬元案第六案本部第二幕向下一般事務費預算凍結10%案第七案本部第二幕向下法律事務預算凍結100萬元案第八案入軍司令部第四幕向下軍事單位裝備零附件固製及保修預算凍結500萬元案決議第二"},{"start":2036.676,"end":2054.626,"text":"決議項次二十七第九案入軍司令部第四幕向下軍事單位裝備零附件購置及保修預算凍結五百萬元案第十案入軍司令部第四幕向下軍事單位裝備零附件購置及保修預算凍結五百萬元案第十一案入軍司令部第五幕向下"},{"start":2055.586,"end":2068.329,"text":"高效能板裝甲飛彈預算凍結1000萬元案第12案陸軍司令部第5幕向下一般武器及裝備資源裝備構設預算凍結200萬元案第13案陸軍司令部第5幕向下陸上機動部雷系統預算凍結200萬元案第14案陸軍司令部第5幕向下新型步槍預算凍結100萬元案第15案陸軍司令部第8幕第二節裝訓部坑子口訓練"},{"start":2083.159,"end":2102.286,"text":"廠整建工程案預算凍結500萬元案第16案陸軍司令空軍司令部第4幕向下軍事單位裝備零附件購置及保修預算凍結1000萬元案第17案軍備局第13幕向下一般數費預算凍結200萬元案第18案參謀本部第1幕向下業務費預算凍結50萬元案第19案本部第2幕向下業務費預算凍結100萬元案第20案陸軍司令部第3幕向下業務費預算凍結150萬元案"},{"start":2112.608,"end":2138.94,"text":"第21案 空軍司令部第三幕向下 業務費預算凍結300萬元案第22案 本部第二幕向下 教育訓練費預算凍結100萬元案第23案 本部第二幕向下 業務費預算凍結50萬元案第24案 陸軍司令部第四幕向下 其他業務租金預算凍結100萬元案第25案 陸軍司令部第四幕向下 房屋建築養護費預算凍結100萬元案第26案 陸軍司令部第五幕向下"},{"start":2140.906,"end":2163.083,"text":"國軍重要防護營區智慧型警監系統建制案第二階段預算凍結五百萬元案第二十七案陸軍司令部第五幕向下戰術型進程無人飛行載具二階段預算凍結五百萬元案第二十八案陸軍司令部第五幕向下國外旅費預算凍結五十萬元案第二十九案全民防衛動員署第一幕向下業務費預算凍結五十萬元案"},{"start":2164.608,"end":2170.252,"text":"第30案 全民防衛動員署第三目向下業務費預算凍結100萬元案第31案 全民防衛動員署第三目向下動員整備預算凍結100萬元案第32案 國防大學第三目向下國外旅費預算凍結20萬元案第33案 國防大學第四目向下一般事務費預算凍結20萬元案"},{"start":2184.623,"end":2197.893,"text":"第34案 參謀本部第3目向下業務費預算凍結100萬元案第35案 參謀本部第4目向下業務費預算凍結100萬元案第36案 陸軍司令部第4目向下水電費預算凍結100萬元案第37案 國防大學第4目向下雜項設備費預算凍結10%案第38案 陸軍司令部第13目向下一般數費預算凍結500萬元案"},{"start":2210.041,"end":2218.087,"text":"第39案 海軍司令部第一幕向下一班事務費預算凍結55萬元案第40案 海軍司令部第五幕向下設備及投資預算凍結300萬元案第41案 海軍司令部第五幕向下錄用兼徵型無人機預算凍結300萬元案第42案"},{"start":2228.235,"end":2240.867,"text":"海軍司令部第3目向下業務費預算凍結100萬元案第43案機密預算第二項決議刮虎2預算凍結案第44案機密預算第二項決議刮虎10預算凍結案第45案機密預算第二項決議21案預算凍結案第46案機密預算第二項決議刮虎24預算凍結案"},{"start":2255.317,"end":2270.555,"text":"討論事項 處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議 國防部主管預算凍結等八案一 陸軍司令部一般裝備向下國軍重要防護營區智慧型艦艦系統建設案第二階段預算凍結20%專案報告案二 本部所屬第八目第二屆引進工程預算凍結五億元案"},{"start":2277.062,"end":2296.252,"text":"3.陸軍司令部第四幕向下軍事單位裝備零附件固製及保修預算凍結500萬元案4.陸軍司令部第四幕向下一班彈藥固製與維護之軍事裝備及設施預算凍結2億元案5.陸軍司令部第三幕向下訓練綜合作業中業務費預算凍結1000萬元案6.陸軍司令部第四幕向下軍事單位裝備零附件固製及保修之軍事裝備及設施預算凍結400萬元案7.憲兵指揮部"},{"start":2305.317,"end":2318.607,"text":"第五目向下一般武器及戰備支援裝備購置中無人機反制系統預算凍結五百萬元案八軍備局第十一目向下軍品研發之次世代先進製造關鍵技術開發計畫預算凍結一千萬元案宣讀完畢"},{"start":2324.821,"end":2346.951,"text":"好那關於這個報告事項二就是呢我們處理這個院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議那國防部主管的預算凍結案有提出書面報告使得凍之有46案那現在書面報告已經送交本位剛剛這一個報告事項念過了那請問各位委員對於這部分的預算結凍有無異議"},{"start":2349.042,"end":2364.306,"text":"好 那沒有異議的話 均同意動之提報院會好 那現在我們還在進入討論事項的那幾個案子那現在請國防部就主管這個預算解凍案包含有專案報告一案進行報告請國防部長 顧部長上台報告主席 各位委員先進感謝各位委員"},{"start":2377.563,"end":2397.618,"text":"先進長期關心國防事務運作並給予本部各項指導在此聲表敬意與感謝今日安排議程辦理預算解凍暨陸軍司令部新型步槍採購等五十四案新台幣十一億兩千一百八十四萬八千元本部軍已將書面報告呈送大院針對委員關切個案執行現況檢討與精進作為等項均依決議四項要求辦理"},{"start":2402.702,"end":2425.884,"text":"各案解凍預算經由本部施政所必須請各位委員鼎力支持預算解凍,被使各項國防施政及建軍規劃順利推行接續由陸軍設定部參謀長陳建義中將針對國軍重要防護營區智慧型警監系統建置案第二階段實施專案報告,向各位委員做具體說明,謝謝"},{"start":2434.366,"end":2461.339,"text":"主席各位委員先進以下警究智慧型警監案執行進度及現況提出報告一專案內容由陸軍統建納海空軍後備憲兵指揮部及國防大學需求偽中科院於民國一百零九至一百一十五年建置全軍兩百八十三處營區智慧型警監系統以強化營區整體安全防護效能二執行概況"},{"start":2462.219,"end":2480.656,"text":"一专案于民国110年开始建制营区智慧型警监系统因初期标案作业进度延宕新冠疫情影响招工以及关键零组件延迟进货等因素至当年及111年执行进度落后"},{"start":2481.317,"end":2498.614,"text":"二在民國一百一十二年起尊國防部指導以及中科院相互協調與配合下逐漸趕上攻境截至民國一百一十三年規劃建制的全軍有一百九十七處營區均已全數完工第三"},{"start":2499.355,"end":2517.94,"text":"民國114年規劃建置全軍有57處營區自民國113年起即要求中科院完成招標作業管制廠商提前進場施作現已完工30處有27處持續在施作中 攻進正常"},{"start":2519.2,"end":2543.782,"text":"請過次頁三管制作為第一項為了確保營區景見系統可依節點完成建置本均與中科院藉由現刊作為現刊作業等四項的積極管控作為要求該院管制廠商執行並專案能夠如期如值的完成以下就四項的經營作為實施報告在現刊作業部分"},{"start":2544.342,"end":2558.68,"text":"建置营区如果有执行的制碍或是变更设计由本军以及中科院共赴营区与主官实施研讨施作的规划以获得双方共识满足营区时需完善整体建置规划"},{"start":2559.221,"end":2576.046,"text":"二 在增加工班的部分我們依據營區面積的大小建置的範圍施作複雜程度以及每日的執行工進要求中科院管制廠商適切加派執行人力加速營區系統建置的進度第三 在招標作業"},{"start":2576.846,"end":2599.387,"text":"又於專案執行初期 曾因招標進入延宕 致壓縮了作業的期程那也從113年起 要求中科院提前辦理招標進場那依節點管制決標後 提前進場施作第四 在加強督管作為的部分管制中科院定期提交營區建置的節點管制表"},{"start":2599.987,"end":2619.192,"text":"並由國防部納專案會議來集合執行進度也藉不定期的履約督導、現刊以及單位查證等方式來驗證攻向的進行第二在專案建置主要設備是攝影機那因為長期暴露在室外易受天候的影響"},{"start":2620.132,"end":2641.974,"text":"為了有效提升設備品質和加速修復的實現除了管制中科院針對合約商定期執行履約的督導跟製程的查驗之外並在設備交貨前需完成各項的檢測需要在達到防塵防水達到IP6的等級以及維持備用品周轉量達到1000G確保"},{"start":2644.436,"end":2657.069,"text":"裝備的妥善第三在防止錄製品的混入方面陸軍也編組了相關的省監人員配合廠商交貨時機赴中科院來執行拆機的查驗作業針對資訊儲存設備採全數拆驗"},{"start":2660.812,"end":2676.662,"text":"攝影機等其他器密設備按比例抽驗迄今已執行了56次的拆機查驗作業另外持續要求中科院確依國軍通知安全要求及採購作業規定不允許入區或入資的廠商以及其產品參與投標確保"},{"start":2679.464,"end":2705.036,"text":"國防整體安全結與面對中共近年利用潛伏特工人員針對國軍機敏處所刺探遂行收集情資的情勢國軍各營區以往雖設有警監系統然未具主動視警的功能執勤人員無法於第一時間掌握營區的整體動態本案智慧型警監系統於營區的重要處所佈建各類"},{"start":2705.996,"end":2706.556,"text":"可請委員支持並給予指教報告完畢"},{"start":2726.274,"end":2744.344,"text":"好 那我們現在開始詢答今天本會委員4加2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘那我們10點半那個發言登記節制如果有臨時提案請於10點半以前提出我們大概11點左右來處理那我們先來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":2765.694,"end":2794.795,"text":"好謝謝主席我們有請顧部長部長早是陳委員首先就我們精進貨幣叫招的相關規劃來請教部長那從解凍案的這個報告書當中我們來看有關這個叫招目前執行的成效約有43%的這個待招人數接受召集"},{"start":2796.335,"end":2824.19,"text":"反過來看就有57%的人在退伍之後沒有受過任何的訓練從今年開始會全面採取14天的教招依基幹人力補充的情形逐步來增加教招的緣額照實際的動員和訓練資源來看後備軍人接受教招提升到多少占比"},{"start":2824.95,"end":2837.195,"text":"是比較實際且理想的國防部有沒有設定一個這個基準的一個目標跟委員報告我們現在就這個第一個我們"},{"start":2838.69,"end":2859.498,"text":"會逐步來擴增這個14天的一個教召的一個訓額因為我們認為14天的教召比較具有這個成效成效5至7天的這個教召呢不足以因應我們現在後備力量的這個提升這是第一點所以要把訓額也要從就是"},{"start":2860.118,"end":2881.987,"text":"才14天的方式來把它增加那我們現在14天的教召的這個內容呢也不斷的一個精進我們從一開始他進來的時候我們會幫他做問卷那他對於這一個他對於自己能夠作戰的這個信心度有多少到14天教召結束那一天來問的話整個比例大幅大幅的提升"},{"start":2882.447,"end":2896.955,"text":"所以我們那個14天的叫召訊額那我們現在到底14天的這個叫召我們的訊額要到多少這件事情我們會現在會根據我們所需要的這個真正的一個動員的一個"},{"start":2898.976,"end":2918.264,"text":"數額我們會來做一個所謂的精密的一個認定之後來做一個比較精密的一個叫囂的一個把柱也就是說簡單講白話一點的話意思就是說我們現在各個部隊我們組織邊桩我們確實也在進行調整當中"},{"start":2922.105,"end":2947.889,"text":"那這些組織變裝調整之後所需要相關的這些後備的這些能力這些能力需要什麼樣的能力來補充第一階段那甚至到第二階段那這些比如說可能涉及到高專的可能涉及到一般步兵的那可能涉及到一些他或者我們現在會陸續獲得一些新式的裝備那些新式裝備我們把它訓練之後"},{"start":2951.11,"end":2967.948,"text":"以後退伍那退伍之後呢我們還在回來讓他受訓這些部分都是我們現在正在努力的一個工作這個會不會動員力量的大幅的提升是現在一個非常緊迫的而且是一個很具有挑戰性的一個工作"},{"start":2968.729,"end":2990.428,"text":"那在這個招訓的整個流程上,如果後備軍人離營之後在民間有新增專長那是不是應該在年度辦理教招的這個之前,我們先進行調查然後在相關的資料上再去做更新那也可以向其他部會調閱相關的資料,並規劃相應的職務分配"},{"start":2993.931,"end":3021.524,"text":"那就這個後備軍人專長及時更新的這個機制我們去年國防部也曾經允諾會來改善那目前是不是已經有建置了我建置的部分是全動數稍微說委員好我是全動數署長有關於建置的部分我們目前在全動數我們有建置了一套後備動員管理系統一個資訊化的系統今年也有借接在"},{"start":3022.484,"end":3031.312,"text":"EMIC就是中央聯合應變中心裡面去借接然後我們會利用各部會跨部會的一個協調有關於後備軍人在民間所獲得的專長他會提供給我們介入我們這個系統"},{"start":3037.697,"end":3054.402,"text":"然後他來叫招的時候我們也會來勾結他的專長那目前我們在這個機制上面的建立之後是不斷的在做更新那另外在叫招的時候我們當然會優先以他的君子專長為優先選中然後民間專長為輔來於補充所以說目前這個"},{"start":3060.083,"end":3072.209,"text":"有關於選員的部分以及我們私訊的部分就是列管8到12年四次的教召的公平性我們都盡量做到公平公正好"},{"start":3073.817,"end":3101.077,"text":"好那另外就這個強化韌性的相關規劃我來就教部長行政院提出4100億的這個特別預算目前也在經濟委員會審查當中其中要強化國土安全韌性編列1500億內容包括強化台灣周邊的這個海域的安全監測另外還有提升資安防護以及建置各式的這種軍品物資還有興建巡防艦艇等等"},{"start":3101.737,"end":3116.707,"text":"來因應中共的日益頻繁的侵擾行為其中有關強化國土安全任性的1514由國防部及海委會來辦理部會之間各負責多少預算是否已經有定案我們現在負責的應該是1164億"},{"start":3120.809,"end":3138.293,"text":"這個部分那主要跟委員報告就是說我們主要在兩大塊的部分一個是資通的韌性環境我們資通的韌性環境的部分呢包括了這個居民資通作業環境韌性跟設備效能的提升然後也這個這個"},{"start":3143.308,"end":3161.883,"text":"然後還有指管系統韌性跟資安防護的擴充然後還有軍民共同圖像系統建設能力還有一個作戰區的一個基礎設備的一個設施的提升那這些對我們整個這個作戰指管這個韌性的提升呢"},{"start":3163.388,"end":3178.333,"text":"這個防衛作戰指管韌性的提升是有非常非常大的幫助那另外一個呢我們就是要這個就具有防護跟實用的庫儲跟保養的設施我們要來強化然後要來這個"},{"start":3181.194,"end":3204.728,"text":"來強化我們的重要的軍品物質零附件的這個囤存的能量那因應這一個我們獲得這個很多新式的裝備我們也需要這個良善的訓練環境來提升訓練的成效那這個都是我們現在所要負責的這些國安部所要承擔的這個在兩年多之內我們要完成的這些項目"},{"start":3206.974,"end":3223.356,"text":"我想請教部長,如果這個特別條例的審查,它會有兩種可能第一種可能就是照我們行政院版本通過,就有1500億的預算來強化我們國土安全的部分"},{"start":3224.017,"end":3247.207,"text":"那另外一個版本就是依照在野黨所提出的一個版本那可能就沒有通過就沒有一千五百億的部分那本次的這個特別條例有關強化任性的這個項目如果未能通過的話可能就要回歸到這個年度預算來因應對國防部在規劃上會不會有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":3248.527,"end":3264.298,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們以前受制於這個作業維持會的一個關係所以我們現在作業會都每年都有一定的額度所以我們將一些急需要提升的這個剛剛講的這個資通的這個韌性然後還有這個剛剛講的這些所有彈藥這些"},{"start":3274.612,"end":3294.147,"text":"相關的一些零附件重要軍品物資的這些庫存跟保養的這些設施還有訓練的場地我們本來都要往後來遞研那因為有這樣子的一個特別預算的這個部分我們就可以做整建然後做這個改善然後來提升這樣子"},{"start":3296.348,"end":3303.83,"text":"另外在媒體報導為了要達到國防部的預算要佔GDP的3%的承諾國防部對於美國的軍購會有另外編列一個預算並且會在下會期送交委員會審查"},{"start":3317.054,"end":3338.548,"text":"那國安部是否已經完成軍購案特別預算的一個規劃並且以提報給行政院那預算的額度大約會落在什麼樣的一個範圍這一點還沒有辦法跟委員做一個明白的一個數字上面的一個說明現在就"},{"start":3339.74,"end":3368.14,"text":"這個部分還是以這個首要還是以建構不對稱站立然後強化防衛韌性那另外當然也會含著這個提設後備站立跟後置灰色地帶映竹這個四個面向那現在很多部分呢我們要採取有軍購的有商購的也有自己的偽製案那這個部分我們是一個比較做一個長年度的一個整個的一個特別預算的一個規模那這些部分都整個扣緊"},{"start":3369.28,"end":3387.316,"text":"我們未來所需要的關鍵的戰力所以這個部分還希望給我們一點時間那我們要跟有盟國家來洽談謝謝部長強化國土的防衛能力是現在因應中共灰色侵擾的一個重之重的一個"},{"start":3389.577,"end":3402.801,"text":"我請國防部持續能夠向各黨的委員爭取支持讓預算能夠順利的通過以維持我們國家的一個長治久安謝謝,謝謝部長是,謝謝委員好,謝謝陳俊宇委員"},{"start":3420.114,"end":3425.428,"text":"好 接著我們請沈博洋委員質詢謝謝主席 有請顧部長 謝謝好 有請顧部長"},{"start":3433.382,"end":3463.025,"text":"是 政委好好 那部長因為今天這個有一些關於這些結鬥的案件那我認為說這個跟我們之後的一個議題有比較相關性的就是也是最近這個新聞就是說關於這一個這個瑞淵二型有這個通訊模組裡面有這個中國製的晶片那我先講就我所知啦就我所知就是說在早期的時候呢這個近鋒一型這個攻擊無人機的通訊模組有用中國的原件嘛那當時在詢問的過程當中說是一個比較被動的一個原件"},{"start":3463.565,"end":3486.807,"text":"那從這個之後呢開始有做一些清查那清查之後呢又發現有這個瑞恩二型無人機的這個通信模組那預防我待會再說就是說呢現在對這兩件事情我們的應酬是什麼然後以及呢是否可以說明一下就是為什麼這樣的一個事情等於是一再發生我先請中院稍微做一個說明跟委員報告這兩個都是我們在"},{"start":3488.227,"end":3514.617,"text":"驗收階段的時候我們主動發現然後就按照當時的契約條款要求廠商換貨好那這種事情就是說呢當然我們都知道就是說廠商他有可能會有這些失誤啦那但是我們現在這個相關的規範到底是長什麼樣子就是說除了契約本身之外我們對於廠商是什麼時候會叫他說那你要做更換那什麼時候呢可能會有相對應的比如說解約啊等等之類的"},{"start":3515.749,"end":3531.62,"text":"跟委員報告,我先講採購室的這個部分,因為在我這個8月30號的時候,我跟採購室他們做了很多的討論,那我們現在就是有一個另班這個國軍採購禁用大陸地區香港澳門產品的年級禮業,"},{"start":3533.352,"end":3558.606,"text":"驗收的一個作業指導,那這個要求要全軍就要來遵循,那杜絕紅色供應鏈來滲入我們的主要的武器跟裝備那依照這個的部分呢,我們就會有一些就是說在驗收的時候,從開始的階段,那包括茶廠然後包括這個文件,然後包括"},{"start":3560.863,"end":3578.312,"text":"進口保管等文件然後產地證明等等然後另外在驗收的時候要如何來進行相關的這個查驗那有一些要進行一些破壞性的檢驗那有一些就要進行全面性的檢驗等等的這些相關的一些規定來做"},{"start":3580.878,"end":3605.004,"text":"基本上來講,我們以無人機這個來講,我們就採全機飛鴻的這樣一個來講我們所以包括產地品牌、內部元件、零組件,我們都要求不可以用大陸製品那個案的企業也會定名,包括剛剛講的茶廠、交貨驗所要提供這些相關的證明文件"},{"start":3605.644,"end":3623.033,"text":"然後我們剛剛也講了,我們會進行檢驗,那檢驗的方式包括破壞性的檢驗等等,這些都有一些綠定那剛剛總會員也提到了,因為這兩型都是在驗收的時候,這個都是一個原型的"},{"start":3626.855,"end":3652.266,"text":"沒有量產的階段所以在原型的時候他再交貨我們就要進行檢驗那以後量產的時候剛剛講的一系列的程序都要來加以嚴格的管控部長我追問一下就是說呢剛剛有點像是就是說我們這個主動有辦法查的這個機制那也的確有這個機制存在所以這個被發現嘛那我現在想問就是標準因為剛剛比較快速的講過去就是說現在我們對非紅這件事情非常的強調"},{"start":3653.106,"end":3674.261,"text":"那它有可能就是說我們對於哪一些是要非紅就是這一個的標準是不是一致因為如果說這個標準是清楚一致的話在第一線的人員他們沒有決定的空間這個就是不行這個就是可以這是第一個嘛然後第二個就是說它上下游的這些廠商哪一些廠商它必須是不能夠是中資比如說像這個樣子"},{"start":3675.322,"end":3687.316,"text":"就是說這個相對應的規範我大概在一兩個月前我們有問採購公司就是說是不是我們現在這一個規範是能夠比較清楚明白的讓大家知道對我們有一個分類這個詳細的分類要不要請採購公司說明"},{"start":3688.8,"end":3712.679,"text":"委員好我是採購室主任跟委員簡單報告我們針對錄製品的部分我們並不是所有東西全部都是進錄製品我們有區分分五類比如第一類是進原料產品和廠牌第二類是進到這個原件剛剛講這個無人機它就屬於我們第二類也就是我們會查到它的原件不能夠有錄製品我們分五類"},{"start":3713.419,"end":3730.146,"text":"是因為我現在在想的事情就是說因為畢竟我們現在各式各樣的廠商也非常的多那跟國防部合作越來越多因為我們現在案子也變多了那這個狀況之下呢這個民間在要做標案或者等等之類的時候他對於這個標準一定是需要非常的一致"},{"start":3730.666,"end":3759.996,"text":"那如果說這個標準過度嚴格比如說你什麼東西都完全都是不能夠中國製的時候那其實說真的廠商也很難做嘛所以到底哪些可以哪些不行像這個案子裡面就有提到說這個就是下面這個新聞在2023年的新聞就是說這個有中國製製品那當時的中科院是說這個是屬於被動的原件那我們當然了解被動原件的問題但是一般人就是我們要怎麼去溝通就是讓國民知道就是說到底是哪一些原件可以哪一些原件不行這個標準其實非常的重要"},{"start":3761.962,"end":3780.377,"text":"剛剛採購室主任有講了,我們分成五類,我舉個例子,桌子絕對不需要說廢錄製,那有一些我想大家比較清楚的是具有傳輸功能的,那我們當然就確定一定是不能夠用錄製品,所以剛剛講的,"},{"start":3782.298,"end":3810.101,"text":"五類的這個標準的部分呢它有蠻詳細的一個綠定那因為我們現在這個採購的這個人員有各層級所以我們將這個綠定清楚以後那它要適用到哪一類這個部分要把它弄清楚然後屬於哪一類你就按照那一類來進行控管大概意思就是如此就是說比如說無人機本身這個當然是比較敏感那它儲存的這個箱子可能等等之類的或者"},{"start":3810.541,"end":3834.951,"text":"旁邊的廚師等等之類的這可能就是有不一樣的規範對那現在無人機是全部無人機這個整體本身好那接下來就是說這個就是這個飛鴻工業的這個規範這個我剛剛有問過那因為這個教召的管道跟這個後備的站立剛剛其實前面據聞有問過還有強化國土安全韌性那因為今天還有解凍案所以後面這兩個我可能就不多問了等我們下次再繼續進行謝謝主席 謝謝部長好 謝謝"},{"start":3840.199,"end":3863.319,"text":"好 謝謝沈博洋委員部長先請委員接下來請許巧欣許巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席 我們有請顧立雄部長有請部長"},{"start":3871.198,"end":3893.929,"text":"是 薛恩好您早安請教部長在台北市松山區有一塊光復北路跟民權東路四段交叉口的松南營區它是空軍慈恩的26村目前它是一塊閒置用地從圖上可以看到我想要問一下國防部接下來對這一塊地的規劃是什麼"},{"start":3897.949,"end":3922.088,"text":"這個是屬於列入我們活化的部分我請金貝局長說沒問題來金貝局跟委員說明松蘭雲區大概土地是3.3公頃目前我們是內陸我們的活化的一個清澈我們一定在年底之前會交給國產署來做活化做活化那你們有沒有去了解所謂活化它的內容方向是什麼"},{"start":3922.788,"end":3942.434,"text":"國化以目前我們大塊的土地我們的依照政策的指導都不直接賣掉都是用地上選的設計我們最高會設定70年的地上選的一個標案那請問有其他單位來找過國防部來洽詢使用過或者是有私人相關的單位來徵詢過嗎目前沒有"},{"start":3944.355,"end":3961.746,"text":"目前沒有所以這個地方有可能會未來移交給台北市政府那去興建聯一的心願區嗎我的了解我們是跟國產署來進行下達你給國產署之後那國防部也要知道國產署後續的規劃是什麼"},{"start":3964.003,"end":3979.988,"text":"國安組後續的規劃他會將相關的收益都會給我們然後放入銀改基金對對對我知道但是我的意思是說國防部在這個地方呢那你們有沒有相關的了解因為如果假設是說建聯義心願區或者是說呢那這個輝達執行長黃仁勳他預計要抵台那他有傳聞說他們會去選企業總部像這種大型的這個可能的興建案那"},{"start":3992.011,"end":4011.699,"text":"他不光是說郭參署這邊他下去決定我們也應該要提前知道說他有什麼樣的一個可能未來的發展可能性而不只是活化所以我的意思是我們有沒有整個大型的規劃向郭參署那邊去了解還是目前是沒有的一個狀態我稍微解釋兩點第一點就是我們活化的意思就是說"},{"start":4012.479,"end":4028.306,"text":"我們會盤整整個所有我們國防部現在所有相關的一些基地那我們也要求就是說如果有相關未來有用途的我們這個就不能夠釋出然後我們也已經規劃了一些相關我們不同意釋出的這些你做了一個"},{"start":4032.627,"end":4057.636,"text":"一個整理一個規範說明說哪些是不能同意釋出的那這一塊是屬於同意釋出的所以活化的話就是屬於同意釋出那我們釋出的程序第二點就是說跟委員報告我們釋出就是跟國產署這個我知道這個我都知道然後他怎麼運用這個就是由行政院他們來決定決定以後我們能夠拿到的就是相關的收益要歸給"},{"start":4058.596,"end":4087,"text":"但是因為它如果是大型的比如說它新建聯醫像這樣的醫療院區我想國防部還是有必要去向他們了解一下因為這樣的話這個對整個台北市或者是說對國防部的土地其實都大家應該要多去了解另外我想要詢問的是有關於抗彈板新一代抗彈板是PE板跟陶瓷片組成我們全軍16億的陶瓷片標案進度到哪邊了"},{"start":4089.229,"end":4116.207,"text":"跟委員報告我們陶瓷片我們國內的一個製產的佔60%國外的由韓國進口的佔40%目前第一批交貨各5000片目前都在依照委員的指導在大湖濱做原料的設計目前兩家都合格目前正在製作抗氮板的過程都在做量產的作業所以1月18號絕標的部分是哪一個部分"},{"start":4117.032,"end":4131.061,"text":"1月8號決標的就是國內跟國外的國內跟國外的嘛有國內生產的這樣百分之九十那因為呢之前大家不分黨派都對於這個抗彈板那它的各裝防護力是比較有疑慮的所以呢我們希望這個軍愛民民進軍都希望能夠抗彈板"},{"start":4135.163,"end":4163.298,"text":"如果今天真的上戰場的話他在之前是有檢驗合格的而且是這個第三方的檢驗專業的檢驗那如果說上戰場的話也才能夠保護我們國軍的性命那我想要請問一下目前我們呢有沒有這個經過TAF的認證單位跟委員說明委員上次的指導我們在2月8號都已經經過TAF的認證整個大湖濱的部分已經完成了"},{"start":4163.903,"end":4166.905,"text":"你們是在哪邊做認證的在大福濱宜蘭大福濱的市場請問軍備局的規格檢測中心這個宜蘭大福濱的市場是在今年的幾月幾號取得的"},{"start":4181.107,"end":4198.69,"text":"是在幾號2月8號2月8號取得的嘛那陶瓷片絕標之前的樣品測試的單位是在執行單位是在哪裡原本在205現在1到5圓的直倒了所有的偶後的量產的每一批的交貨都在大湖濱"},{"start":4199.13,"end":4203.192,"text":"好所以呢 絕標前的樣品執行檢測單位在205廠那是後續每批交貨都在大福兵所以只有只有這個絕標前的樣品是在205廠但是到時候拿去使用的都要在這個宜蘭大福兵的市場"},{"start":4220.359,"end":4239.646,"text":"所以1月8號決標的這整批都會在2月8號取得的這個宜蘭大福賓的市場去做TAF的檢測是嗎是 沒錯好那最後我想要問的是有關於EWE的民間專長的應用那因為時間不夠的關係我就簡單跟這個院長說明我的想法就好了"},{"start":4240.186,"end":4250.389,"text":"那就是目前一年期的EOE的藝男人才他可能在服役期間他有具備特殊專長或證照的其實我們的所學證照參加專業領選的部分有13類跟139項我不細講時間的關係裡面包含是有醫情項目有醫學系護理系專長的背景"},{"start":4262.293,"end":4281.631,"text":"會被派到軍醫局軍醫院跟國防醫學院的衛訓中心那我們了解到很多人都是反應說他們到這個相關的單位之後都是只能做助手或者是說被現場當人手那因為一年期那他們就很像是學打雜匠這樣的一個性質"},{"start":4282.392,"end":4300.189,"text":"但是我們先前大家也都有談到就是說我們在人力上面或者是說我們在講說國防的韌性上面那這些一年級的151如果說他能夠學習到更多如果說能夠給他更多的一些任務的話那對於包含是急救、戰傷救護的推展"},{"start":4300.529,"end":4315.154,"text":"那我們的軍醫體系都對所有的作戰負傷有特別的相關的課程然後讓有醫情專業的背景一南進到軍中我覺得呢會是一個對全民國防任性都有幫助的一個方案那這個部分就請院長多做參考"},{"start":4316.154,"end":4333.952,"text":"跟委員報告簡單,第一點就是說,因為現在來服役務役的都還是18歲的,還沒有這個具有地令啊服役務役是18歲以上現在,現在,因為我們去年才開始嘛,所以現在有時候之後啊,對,有時候要講的就是之後"},{"start":4337.635,"end":4349.266,"text":"因為現在來扶義務役的都是高中畢業的因為如果你還要扶大學的話因為我們從去年才開始是啊是啊所以還要再幾年之後可能會更具幾年之後他就會有啦有一些專長這是第一點第二點以後這些"},{"start":4353.509,"end":4373.106,"text":"相關的這些醫護我們會根據他的相關專長會選材然後同時我們在所有的其實相關的各部隊我們現在也要求是說在各工作單位裡面也都要有相關的這些人員才能夠自助自救互救這些我想這些都我們在進行規劃當中"},{"start":4374.787,"end":4394.506,"text":"好 那麻煩就是我們希望說未來在這個選裁取裁的部分就算它是一年期的義務役那也希望能夠分發到各單位的時候有更實際的學習跟協助那這對於未來如果有國防安全韌性的時候能夠更加排上流場各項的專業 高專的部門可以培養好 謝謝"},{"start":4401.641,"end":4415.013,"text":"接下來有請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請顧部長有請顧部長 謝謝羅委員好"},{"start":4426.338,"end":4445.831,"text":"部長在上個月的時候根據日經新聞的報導因為中國現在的造船能力是遠遠的超過美國所以美國海軍部長就要求日本對美造船業提供協助目前日本是全球第三大的造船國"},{"start":4447.492,"end":4450.573,"text":"對川普政府的關稅談判當中所以日本準備要與造船牌來準備跟美國來做關稅談判也就是說他可能會以技術的支援或是協助造新船的籌碼作為談判的條件然後在安保合作方面"},{"start":4470.86,"end":4473.824,"text":"日本也正在推行維修美軍船艦的措施也就是說如果部署在亞洲周邊的艦艇能夠減少返回美國進行維修的時間"},{"start":4485.942,"end":4491.505,"text":"我想請問部長以台灣來講的話本席為什麼要這麼說以台灣來講的話我們在軍用品軍產品這部分我們有沒有類似日本這樣子的談判籌碼請問部長我只能說我們迄今為止我們"},{"start":4511.457,"end":4527.438,"text":"成修的標的還是我們本部所屬的這些武器裝備項目還沒有這個國外軍機這個軍艦的這個維修的一個品項軍艦的部分我們是目前當然是還沒有喔那可是呢像"},{"start":4528.579,"end":4552.993,"text":"我要提的就是因為在後面我有看到一份報導就是說現在連維修的這個部分都會作為這個他們這次關稅談判的一個條件那我有看過一些資料就是說像台灣呢台灣它是位處第一島鏈像過去韓戰也好越戰的時候我們都是美國重要的維修的中繼站那像這個漢翔公司在2022年的時候呢它也是這個"},{"start":4556.115,"end":4580.15,"text":"在台中成立了F16戰機的後勤維修中心這也是F16製造廠商洛克希德馬丁公司在亞洲唯一授權設立的後勤維修中心而且維修中心現在已經在研發生產部分戰機的這個零組件所以本席在想說那當然這個部分也可以省下這個戰機送回美國維修的這個成本"},{"start":4581.692,"end":4593.228,"text":"我想請問一下像這個部分會成為有可能成為我們跟美軍談判的這個關稅的這個籌碼之一嗎有可能嗎我是看到日本的例子啦我想說正在進行關稅談判這部分會是嗎有沒有可能"},{"start":4596.785,"end":4613.919,"text":"我想應該是這樣講,就是說我們假設軍購到美系的裝備,我們都希望有一定的自主維修的量能那F16呢,因為我們有現在現有兩棟就有141架,那我們還要再進來66架的拐棟的這個F16"},{"start":4618.442,"end":4634.545,"text":"那所以我想我們要建立一定的自主維修的能量,這是我們所期待的那當然船艦的這個部分呢不是船艦,這個是屬於這個這個航空,我們是屬於航空的部分嘛,對啊"},{"start":4635.586,"end":4649.391,"text":"軍艦的部分是日本的部分嗎?對,軍艦現在就美方來看的話,它現在是找日本跟韓國來進行軍艦的部分是,我是想航空的部分,航空維修的部分"},{"start":4650.267,"end":4669.944,"text":"航空的維修的部分我們現在就如您現在所提我們現在應該是說我們不只是這個F16啦那要比較逐步來建立更高的自主維修的一個能量我們現在目前只能做到自主維修的部分嗎部長你知道嗎我們台灣的這個"},{"start":4672.927,"end":4693.957,"text":"我們在軍事維修的基地在亞洲其實是數一數二的曾經有專家透露說台灣是亞洲航空界維修如果說是排第二的話沒有人敢說是第一那這個部分你怎麼評論呢?本身現在是針對航空的部分我們有沒有可以有一些談判的籌碼之類的?"},{"start":4696.209,"end":4711.285,"text":"美國韓國日本有軍艦那我們航空的部分呢就我的理解一直到現在為止美國應該沒有將他的戰機所有這些最關鍵的比如說發動機"},{"start":4713.247,"end":4741.001,"text":"或者是這些射控雷達等等交給任何一個國家來所以部分的話我們沒有著理點就對了就我的了解這個部分他還沒有釋出給任何一個國家就算一些零組件的話其實對他來講的話航空的部分他也覺得還是他一些最關鍵的剛剛講的比如說發動機裡面的這些相關模組化的一個組件或者是這些雷達"},{"start":4742.22,"end":4764.972,"text":"這些組件他這個部分是列為他的應該是沒有交我的了解應該沒有交給世界上任何一個國家來進行OK那再來的話就是我們要提到就是剛剛結束的就是美國跟菲律賓所舉辦的這個兼並兼的這個演習那我們可以發現說這一兩年呢參加的夥伴國是越來越多那"},{"start":4766.473,"end":4791.228,"text":"這兩年我們也發現說其實他演習的範圍也都已經有在擴大那這一次我們還發現說他的演習地點甚至包含了臨近台灣的禮宋島的這個北部那這也就是顯示了台海安全的這個重要性那過去呢我曾經有看過一篇報導就是說有個媒體就有透露說我們曾經很低調的參與了美國跟泰國的金眼鏡蛇演習那我們有沒有機會就是說來爭取"},{"start":4792.989,"end":4798.112,"text":"參與這個兼併間演習的這個或者是我們以這個觀察員的身份來參加這個兼併間的演習我們有機會嗎請問這個部分委員我覺得我沒有辦法在這裡跟委員做這個無法公開說明"},{"start":4810.317,"end":4836.264,"text":"委員如果想要了解我們私下再跟委員做事OK 了解這個沒有辦法在這裡公開說明那當然我們希望說國防部呢可以強化區域之間的這個合作我們跟鄰國可以展開一些對話那我們知道說南海其實是美中很禁足的一個關鍵所以我們希望說國防部再強化南方的空防跟治海這個能力方面我們可以逐步來做加強OK 好 以上謝謝是 謝謝"},{"start":4840.679,"end":4856.153,"text":"好 謝謝同盟林委員接下來有請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席 主席有請顧部長有請部長 謝謝林委員好"},{"start":4865.678,"end":4882.949,"text":"部長早安部長我們今天當然主要是預算解凍啦那麼面對其實中國的威脅本席是認為國防預算是完全不可以有任何的這個差池那麼像現在呢因為在野黨的堅持所以我們的國防預算是要執行了30%之後才能做解凍但是我們知道這個不論是我們的國軍弟兄他們的這個所謂戰備需要的物資包括你說像中"},{"start":4894.617,"end":4903.028,"text":"國的軍艦或者是空軍的這個所謂共機啊一直在繞台那個弟兄的這個飛機升上去之後不能說這個有料"},{"start":4905.087,"end":4930.156,"text":"完全30了然後才來申請而且要經過院會飛機是要讓他掉下來嘛所以本席當然是認為可以解凍的要趕快來解凍不過我想我會提到這個來當開場白是因為我們知道今天在自由時報當中有刊登出來了就是賴清德賴總統在接受日本媒體訪問的時候有特別提到有關於現在兩岸局勢的部分那麼他特別提到的是說如果"},{"start":4931.196,"end":4945.501,"text":"兩岸會有所謂的擦槍走火的狀況也是因為中共透過油鹽轉戰為什麼我剛剛的開場白會特別的提到就是現在國防部的很多的預算包括我們這個業務費是要執行30%之後"},{"start":4949.142,"end":4965.435,"text":"才能提到院會來解凍那麼面對連總統都特別在對國際媒體的時候都講到那就是中國不斷的在台灣的四周包括東海南海做軍演那麼可怕的是由演轉戰的時候那麼我們到底該怎麼辦這個訊息的釋出我相信那麼這個也是問題"},{"start":4971.46,"end":4980.307,"text":"越來越嚴重了那麼部長怎麼來看這個連總統都對外提到中國的軍演在台灣四周所引發的灰色地帶作戰"},{"start":4982.454,"end":5007.684,"text":"我想這分兩點第一點就是說灰色地帶的一個襲擾是一種軍事的一個恫嚇加上認知戰那我們對於這樣子的一個灰色地帶的一個應處我們要從這兩個面向一方面我們對於這樣的軍事恫嚇我們要相關的有一些因應的作為但是我們不能夠來大量的消耗我們"},{"start":5009.325,"end":5024.1,"text":"這些戰力所以要有一些如何的應處這是我們現在要面臨的一個課題第二個當然就是說認知戰我們對於這樣子的一個灰色地帶洗澡"},{"start":5025.562,"end":5037.094,"text":"連結到他們相關從事認知戰我們要從事相關的反認知戰的一個一個反制的作為這樣子好所以本席其實本來要問的是另外一個問題但是因為時間有限我要強調的就是中國加劇對台灣的這個整體的所謂侵擾"},{"start":5043.26,"end":5064.751,"text":"那麼中共以我這個從天下雜誌所揭露的訊息當中就是包括我們2024年到2025年不斷的從供機供件再到氣球的所謂氣球徵貨的這個數目其實都是在增加當中啦當然這個氣球徵貨的數目是降低但是從供機供件的次數是增加的"},{"start":5065.211,"end":5085.299,"text":"但是如果說他們不斷地是用這個騷擾跟侵擾的方式但是如果面臨我們的國防預算是被凍結的狀態的時候他就等在我們在凍結來不及解凍然後來發動整體的侵擾然後在演習當中由嚴轉戰的過程當中那麼我們是不是已經做好了必要的因應的準備"},{"start":5087.187,"end":5115.656,"text":"所以我這邊特別強調因為我們業務費的部分被凍結了百分之三十那因為如果說我們要按照這個條件是說我們要整體預算執行到百分之三十的話會落到這個六月多以後立法院修會的一個時間因為我不清楚現在立法院要不要延長然後延長到什麼時候所以我們很希望能夠在五月底以前"},{"start":5117.276,"end":5128.763,"text":"這個就能夠處理掉我們這個整個業務會的30%的凍結不然的話對我們的影響會相當的大所以因為如果再拖下去那我們滿了30%但因為"},{"start":5129.762,"end":5142.727,"text":"對啊因為滿30之後這是表示說30之後才能送進來嘛然後送進委員會再送院會嘛這就是一個非常荒謬的狀況就是我剛剛開場特別問到的所以說到時候整個國軍是要整個停擺嗎大家不要粗糙不要出勤然後大家可能連上洗手間都不准去因為沒有業務費的話是不是連水電都不行那更不要講這些有關於海"},{"start":5159.132,"end":5171.738,"text":"陸空的抵禦跟防禦那麼如果說現在這個規定在野黨就是已經這樣規定了有沒有特別去溝通跟去尤其是跟在野黨的委員來做讓他們理解我們都有在做溝通那你們溝通了之後的結果是什麼在野黨的委員還是不同意"},{"start":5182.179,"end":5189.599,"text":"國民黨的在黨委員不同意嗎還是說這個期程定在那裡了就沒有辦法改所以也沒有辦法送"},{"start":5191.163,"end":5219.324,"text":"我現在程序上我的了解是這樣就是說這些要到院會裡面宣讀完之後然後才送程序委員會互委那所以我希望這個流程不要有任何的阻擋然後能夠順利的進入了程序委員會互委之後呢那希望這個委員會能夠安排因為我現在的了解是說他本來是說要在院會做報告"},{"start":5219.944,"end":5245.68,"text":"是那現在應該按照文化部的例子的話應該是可以交付委員會那如果說我們國防部的這個這一部分的解凍也可以按照這個程序就是說院會宣讀完之後然後就同意授權由委員會來進行這個報告之後來進行解凍我想這樣子會對我們的國防預算的這個執行會有很大的幫忙好"},{"start":5246.42,"end":5258.823,"text":"所以本席只是提醒啦在民進黨這裡我們當然是完全希望能夠國防的預算不要中間有所謂的空白期免得有空白期灰色地帶的侵擾就會直接由嚴轉戰成為直接的台灣的整個全面被中國有機會趁虛而入那至於是不是能夠走文化部的模式我就請國防部這裡再跟這個"},{"start":5272.367,"end":5294.796,"text":"至少我們國防委員會的在野黨的委員能夠讓他們來理解我相信他們應該站在這個國家本事議題沒有再分所謂這個在野黨或執政黨的部分我相信他們應該會有方向應該是善意的吧所以我們會跟朝鮮的委員都每一位都來進行好如果沒有的話我覺得事實是可以讓民眾知道"},{"start":5295.987,"end":5321.667,"text":"因為國防不可以,國家這個,國這個字不能有動,如果有動,難免會遭到我希望得到草野委員的一致的支持好,加油,謝謝好,謝謝主委委員那待會等到那個林益君委員質詢完畢的時候,我們休息十分鐘那接下來有請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":5346.721,"end":5372.287,"text":"你好 我們請部長有請顧部長 謝謝陳委員好部長好 部長有沒有掌握最新的國際時事在巴基斯坦跟印度的衝突中在他的空戰中有八方八國他有提到說大概有五架被擊落"},{"start":5373.127,"end":5394.682,"text":"但是印度方面沒有核實那法國方面沒有核實那只有第三方的這些媒體包含路透社大概是談到說一到三架那其中可能包含一下這個法國的這個陣風或者是飆風戰機那這個裡面的意義我想對我們非常重要就是說第一個我們要接近他的戰術是不是因為中方"},{"start":5395.442,"end":5412.262,"text":"有跟這個巴基斯坦有在戰術上面事前演練事後印證那是有效的或者是說是他的哪一個武器系統能夠有效的去應對這來自西方國家也就是我們非常重要的這些裝備"},{"start":5413.884,"end":5437.785,"text":"這些是我們不需要知道的目前就國防部的掌握到底有沒有印度的戰機被擊落包含我剛剛提到的標峰戰機是不是有被擊落就目前得到的情報我想我們對於印巴的衝突相關的這些"},{"start":5440.956,"end":5450.306,"text":"有涉及到的這些空戰的經驗影響到我們未來台海的軍事態勢,我們都持續來關注"},{"start":5455.468,"end":5483.275,"text":"OK 來關注那等於說剛才的問題沒有辦法去證實或者是說從公開資訊大概你覺得路透社講的會比較接近事實還是由巴基斯坦方講的會比較接近事實我之所以講這件事情的原因是因為巴基斯坦是透過這一次的空戰不斷地進行全面性的宣傳這是Propaganda的一部分但是同時我們要區分什麼是Propaganda跟什麼是事實如果我不知道說五價就五價"},{"start":5484.995,"end":5513.354,"text":"那不然就是說就相信印度方的或是全面都沒有沒事我們還是能夠有效的應對這都不對我們不需要那我知道最近這幾天有很多節目用幾乎是在歌頌中共的這一些軍備的方式來去貶低對自己的信心這是不對的所以說我們同時也要關注他們的宣傳戰那同時你要知道說如果他們是用有效的方式極弱中制的這些武器系統"},{"start":5514.517,"end":5529.277,"text":"那我們就要從中學習啊他們現在講的每一個宣傳同時也可能把他們的戰術給揭露啊這部分部長可不可以簡單的回應一下到底有沒有類似這樣的情況我們現在目前掌握到的是什麼有沒有跟法國方面來掌握有沒有跟印度方面來掌握"},{"start":5529.938,"end":5554.338,"text":"有沒有做這些動作我想跟委員報告我想我們對於中共所有的這個新式武器的裝備我們都持續掌握而且我們從台海的這些情勢他們相關的這些進行操演或者進行訓練我們都從這個地方會得到我們對敵可能行動在台海這個部分我們要如何應處這個我們都是來做"},{"start":5554.858,"end":5570.574,"text":"那空戰的這個部分呢我想也是如此也就是說他要如何透過不同的一個相關的指管作為然後來進行有效的一些打擊這些部分也是在我們的持續的密駐當中那我們也會相關的有一些戰術的因應作為那因為詳細的狀況我覺得我們"},{"start":5575.54,"end":5593.128,"text":"不適合在這個地方做我們其實是我只是說他們都有跟我做一些從文的報告但是我不認為我適合在這個地方做一個公開的一個說明好沒關係我只是要讓國防部有確切知道說到底發生了什麼事情因為我知道這個訊息都是"},{"start":5594.068,"end":5619.415,"text":"有時候是彼此矛盾的在法國的法方跟我們講的我們在法國法國那邊辦事處的跟我們在國安局的那我們收集的資料可能沒有百分之百全部一致吻合所以必須要核實那到時候才知道說哪一方得到的情報是最真實的我只能夠說我們跟相關的這些國家都會有這些有關的請示的一個交換但是"},{"start":5619.875,"end":5639.89,"text":"我想確切的情況可能不適宜在這裡做過的說明我沒有要你跟我講確確的情況我只是把這個方針講出來我希望說注意宣傳站這是第一個那就是同時注意宣傳站的部分的原因就是說不可以說就是讓他們一直講但是我們沒有用事實來去做區分什麼是事實什麼是宣傳"},{"start":5640.891,"end":5658.541,"text":"那什麼是對我們自己國家的自信這三個是不同的東西那我還是希望說有自信的面對中國的武器系統的提升不把它當成是垃圾我知道現在很多人就是把他們這個西方那個中國是紙套戶或者是中國人會說西方是紙套戶都不是"},{"start":5659.582,"end":5667.405,"text":"他們的實力是怎麼樣我們必須要知道最後謝謝趙偉再給我一分鐘非常感謝關於DIO我們講了蠻久了國防創新小組已經有一個重要的宗旨是在講說徵求民間科技解決方案"},{"start":5683.211,"end":5701.767,"text":"Hacking for Defense這個部分創新模式就是用國防產業創新模式的這個部分有沒有想過說是不是有沒有經費配置趕快就Hacking for Defense Taiwan規範一個試辦的經費為什麼要這樣講我們是希望現在包含無人機的這些需求那是我們希望說平時可以創業暫時可以擴張"},{"start":5704.489,"end":5728.637,"text":"就是衝突的時候可以擴張那我們就不能夠只來自幾個商員三個 四個重要的公司我們要包含小型公司包含BBC有報導就是台灣的這些小型的這些無人機的公司大概是有20到100個他們其實基本上沒有機會來進入我們的國防體系所以在這邊是不是可以呼籲部長能夠盡快的把這個東西來導入至少跟我們一個國立大學"},{"start":5730.013,"end":5750.847,"text":"跟委員報告我們是有的有這個經費嗎有這個有的而且他們相關這些學校也確實有很具體的準備因為我們等一下已經開辦了所以我們可能今年就可以開始像有一些這個他們利用這個AI的一些對以任務為導向所以部長我們今年大概就可以開始了嗎"},{"start":5751.587,"end":5779.266,"text":"那很棒還有無人街競賽等等這個確實是有的今年吧今年就可以開始或者是明年就是反正近期就可以開始我們事實上已經有獲得一個具體的成果了只是說我想不是啊DIO不是我們才剛創立我是說由DIO主導的有DIO主導的當然我們我們本來就是一直有在進行這些相關的搜尋然後也現在已經做了公開徵集好 謝謝未來也會就委員的這個"},{"start":5780.126,"end":5780.687,"text":"接下來有請王定宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":5811.308,"end":5834.199,"text":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩部長所以我安慰部長早我還是想跟你提一下這個葛明德事件那我曉得你們已經簽陳儲是國防大學這個理工學院的院長跟相關的參謀"},{"start":5836.377,"end":5864.477,"text":"但這個事情這樣處理是不是到適當的層級我非常有疑議這事情的源頭是來自於國防大學我們跟他們簽了一個合作案讓這個老師去研究研究出來的專利最後竟然是歸葛明德所有他成立了一家公司公司的股東大會在國防大學裡面開公司找的股東有中國方面我們不允許的資本在裡面"},{"start":5866.254,"end":5884.131,"text":"當時邱國正當部長站在我現在的對立那邊說這個人該槍斃後來拖了半年遲遲不處理一直到媒體再揭露才把他從位置上停聘停聘半年而已後來當然是解聘了"},{"start":5885.486,"end":5904.281,"text":"然後最近的風波是他在三四月份才被檢調搜索就差一點點五月一號人力生效他竟然從原來國防先進科技計畫的申請人也就剛才講的那個事件被該槍斃的事件竟然又被聘為那個計畫的審查審議組的審查委員"},{"start":5908.101,"end":5935.689,"text":"從有瑕疵的裁判直接變成有瑕疵的球員轉個身份變成有瑕疵的裁判那這事情我當然有跟貴部相關的夜館溝通過那第一個問題是當時邱國正被質詢的時候國防大學教務長在這裡吧在嘛 你人在現場嘛那為什麼在聘這個審查委員的時候"},{"start":5937.642,"end":5964.842,"text":"他的名字還可以浮出來你們現在解釋都推給基層因為參謀新來的不知道院長不查所以院長記兩個過院長該被處分我沒有意見校長沒事啊校長怎麼幹的啊有事都下面人趕這麼大的事情當時的部長震怒回去該不要列管沒有列管然後這人輕輕放下靠山很大"},{"start":5967.315,"end":5991.966,"text":"然後這次的處分還是只到院的層級學校的層級管理的層級通通沒有責任可以這樣子嗎部長我不知道你們懲處的邏輯是什麼就是說光管理一個學校這個學校的老師可以申請就專利我們花的錢最後專利居然歸那個老師的還讓他去開公司公司的股東坦白講他的股東現在是不是還在學校裡面"},{"start":5994.5,"end":6001.508,"text":"如果背後沒給他靠可以敢這樣子啊在學校開股東會找中國人來當股東所以我第一個要請教部長這個事件的層屬層級只到院妥適嗎它不是單一事件它是從去年連續發生到現在"},{"start":6015.427,"end":6040.232,"text":"我的理解或者等下可以教授再補充一下我的理解好像這是理工學院的層級裡面通報出來的如果只有這一次我覺得到院夠重了可是問題是它有前因後果去年在這個委員會國防大學練習的人就知道葛明的這個事件了隔了六個月它又火起來了為什麼學校都不用管的"},{"start":6046.981,"end":6072.079,"text":"院的院長不用來這邊被尋的啊委員好 謝委員知道那個廣東大學這邊報告有關於去年開這個案子發生之後我們校長召開了很多次的管制會議然後以包括那個停定會議還有相關的那個藉著那個高老師接觸各項研究案還有當任主持人的案子他都有管制然後基於這個責任檢討我們有兩點第一點就是"},{"start":6074.501,"end":6098.837,"text":"在這個作業流程還有當初的國防科技官網的一個授權上面這確實是理工學院它單獨作業完成它是沒有職位我們那個校部教育長這些事我們溝通過你們開了好多會議開了好多管制會議他不能接觸機敏的資料就當時可以被聘為審查委員那會議有用嗎"},{"start":6100.261,"end":6115.095,"text":"這跟委員報告 因為這個案子後來的處置是很迅速的在5月1號生效之前我們還要把它註銷那是因為有中科院的人說這個不妥當媒體報導出來了 否則5月1號笑話就變顧立雄的笑話了"},{"start":6117.559,"end":6134.749,"text":"你們不是內空發現的你們是媒體揭露你們才處理的我們發現這個問題之後我們也是趕快做一個檢討整個作業流程都有做檢討我要回到部長這邊就是說這個事情有一個我們那天有跟軍備局也討論過了根據工程會我們所有的標案"},{"start":6135.689,"end":6152.654,"text":"的審查委員其實他的法律跟道德瑕疵是列入考量的後來呢 部長你知道嗎我們盤點了一下這個先進科技研究計畫它其實有點像標案有點像最有力標這些大學提了proposal進來核准的會有五千萬幾千萬欸"},{"start":6155.523,"end":6175.478,"text":"他也是一種標案結果獨獨我們軍方哪怕我們引改要蓋的房子什麼的我們在招標的時候審查委員的資格裡面是有根據公共工程委員會有一些他有法律疑義有道德瑕疵的會迴避掉全部只有先進科技研究計畫的審查委員沒有"},{"start":6178.882,"end":6198.894,"text":"軍備局我這樣講沒錯啦 這個我們討論過了嘛就是說所有的標案喔我們在招標的時候去勾這些審查委員根據工程委員會對其他政府標案根據我們國防部對其他相關標案這個審查委員有利益迴避問題最近有被司法調查有相關的瑕疵會把他移開"},{"start":6200.834,"end":6217.321,"text":"怎麼會獨獨國防先進科技研究計畫的這個審議組的委員沒有嘛獨獨他沒有嘛我這樣講沒有錯嘛所以我們看到一個案子我們當然會難過會憤怒但我們也希望一起研討找出亡羊補牢的方式"},{"start":6217.961,"end":6240.662,"text":"未來在這一個先進科技研究計畫的審查委員上是不是應該比照其他的標案雖然有人認為是學校提proposal但這個是有的幾百萬有的幾千萬的proposal講標案那金額也不是小案是不是應該把這樣子的考量跟其他的標案對審查委員有疑義的資格應該一致性的考慮我不知道部長看法怎麼樣"},{"start":6241.363,"end":6263.634,"text":"是跟委員說明我們確實對這件事情受到了一個重大的教訓所以我們會根據這個您講的這個工程工工程委員會他們這一個有關採購評選委員會的專家學者的這種參考名單的資料庫的這個專業性跟公正性有一個要點的一個規範我們會根據這個要點來幾日起把那個規範納入進來納入進來"},{"start":6270.137,"end":6287.304,"text":"坦白講我一面覺得劉志斌校長好像無辜啊因為沒有排除這個坦白講這鐵人腦袋在幹下面框了300個審查委員就只有這種審查委員萬一裡面爆出一兩個有牽涉到共諜案的勾出一個過去身上貪賭的"},{"start":6289.043,"end":6309.1,"text":"結果審查的時候根本沒有這樣排除的條件那這個長官多難當所以一面我可以體會這個校長好像是有點無辜但另外一面這件事情從去年爆發到現在整個處理的過程看起來是如火如荼有節有奏到最後是根本沒效他還是浮出來"},{"start":6310.339,"end":6333.696,"text":"也就是本席剛才發現審查委員這資格事情應該是在學校裡面開各項的管考會議的時候你們應該發現說這個審查委員我們沒有把這個有道德瑕疵法律瑕疵法律異議利益迴避的人排除應該當時納入納入的話就不會發生5月1號差一點人令公佈他成為審查委員"},{"start":6334.662,"end":6357.998,"text":"所以跟委員報告我只能說第一點就是說就我的了解校長在有受到這個案子當之前有停聘然後後來這個案子檢方啟動偵查之後他馬上停止他的所有相關的這些研究的計畫案那另外也逐步的要開各級的這個評議評議這個會那最後在5月6號就5月6號就已經開校教評會將他解聘這樣子那部長"},{"start":6366.331,"end":6373.29,"text":"檢調啟動調查是在事情爆發將近四個半月五個月後整個處理是慢的第二個"},{"start":6374.448,"end":6398.333,"text":"第二個你停聘一堆不能接觸這些研究案結果跑出一個漏洞他竟然當了研究案的審查委員所以這就有一個洞嘛那這個洞為什麼沒有被發現誰有責任我一直認為誰有責任誰就該處分不是長官的連坐而是管理的人有管理的責任執行的人有執行的責任不是萬事小兵扛啊"},{"start":6399.393,"end":6425.768,"text":"管理的責任就應該管理階層要扛起來所以這個懲處人事權是您的權利我不干涉但我告訴你這件事情如果只懲處到這個層級等於枉費過去六個月到底做了什麼事情怎麼這個洞還會發生這個洞是可以堵住的然後呢我最後要提醒他成立那家公司股東部長你可以跟檢調調一個名冊股東有哪些人那些人是不是還在學校裡面"},{"start":6426.741,"end":6453.383,"text":"有沒有查一下就是說我不確定有我也不確定沒有但是你們應該去了解一下說他敢在學校開股東會股東有沒有我們學校的人有沒有甘股有沒有背後的人這個是先進科技雖然是屬於發展期還未達機敏程度但也看得出來我們國軍要投入資本研究的方向他的公司敢在國防大學裡面開"},{"start":6455.612,"end":6474.513,"text":"你如果說沒人給他靠我實在是不太敢相信外面隨便租個餐廳都能開了黨大萬為到這個程度所以股東的成分了解一下好不好可不可以請國防部跟國防大學或者相關單位了解了解完給我們委員會一個報告我想我們下去以後請你了解吧"},{"start":6476.274,"end":6500.877,"text":"委員好,我是理工學院院長,跟你報告,這個武東一開始是12個人成立的12個裡面有多少是國防大學的人?這裡面有4個是國防大學的人有一個是革命的老師,那他是以他兒子的名義來做那另外三個老師,其中兩個已經離開學校了分別是退休還有已經過世了,那還剩下一個老師"},{"start":6501.678,"end":6527.361,"text":"那他在這個案發是112年12月在那個之前他在111年的12月的時候把他的股份全部都轉讓了轉讓給其他股東其他股東所以這個公司有出具一個證明就是說該員已經不是本公司的股東坦白講你不覺得這個公司是一群我們國防大學的老師違法"},{"start":6530.159,"end":6554.792,"text":"去成立的一公司放在學校裡面你不覺得很誇張嗎這些在之前的處分都已經按照違反堅持進來都記過一次然後即便是已經退休的人還是記過一次我還是建議把這個流程相關人間接的三等親查一下然後能夠亡羊補牢卻沒有補到的管理的責任該負還是要負這個給部長做參考好不好 謝謝部長是 好 謝謝 先問指教"},{"start":6560.922,"end":6561.902,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國防部部長有請部長 謝謝"},{"start":6595.33,"end":6619.362,"text":"市立委好部長早今天本來我想要針對國防部送來的預算解凍案中有一些針對紅準火箭彈的偽製案的細節想要跟部長請教一下首先我當然是先強調我們是百分之百去支持國防自主但是陸軍今年的話編了多少預算要購買中科院自行研發的國造紅準火箭彈呢請陸軍參謀長"},{"start":6629.044,"end":6634.663,"text":"包委員這個我下去再做一下了解你連編了多少運算你都不知道"},{"start":6640.026,"end":6641.828,"text":"好 那沒關係我先用下一個那個問題好了部長你知道中科院國照的紅種火箭彈最常被詬病的是什麼事情是不是既昂貴又無法發揮應有的效能因為我覺得它最大的被質疑的問題是在穿透力的不足的問題所以我今天想要"},{"start":6660.067,"end":6673.111,"text":"從你們國防部這個預算解凍案的書面上面我有看到從中科院書面上面提到了紅種火箭彈的穿透力測試是參照美軍的MILSTD2105D還有北約的AOP4526對不對我想"},{"start":6679.011,"end":6693.384,"text":"這個請鐘哥先報委員是沒有錯好那既然是的話那你們送來的解凍的正式的關係文書這一本的書面報告上面然後你們是參照的標準是AOP4256還是AOP4526呢"},{"start":6699.89,"end":6710.616,"text":"還是連報告都寫錯因為我在這上面看了你們連最基本的書面報告如果都寫錯的話那我們怎麼能信任國防自主的人力來保衛能夠來保衛我們國家的安全呢你們看一下螢幕嘛"},{"start":6717.059,"end":6732.999,"text":"到底是4526還是4256呢那整個報告是不是完全的錯誤想要中科院做一個解釋那個應該是4256那個陸軍的報告可能有物質應該是4256但是這一個明明這個圖是4526"},{"start":6737.782,"end":6743.427,"text":"是4526吧但是你們從頭到尾整個報告都是寫是4256那你們是不是要自己要看一下先看一下整個清楚因為連報告都會寫錯是這個資料我們給陸軍可能後來我們沒有幫陸軍再去檢查因為這個是蠻大的問題耶"},{"start":6762.144,"end":6765.926,"text":"如果是北約到時候你們再給我一個答案然後AOP如果是4526的標準進行穿透力的測試那我有發現了兩個問題從這個報告上面第一個問題就是如果你們是採用這個2018年發行的第一版但是北約在2022年的時候就有第二版了"},{"start":6783.494,"end":6785.495,"text":"所以北約都已經根據威脅型態的改變已經重新發了一個新版的標準了那我們國防部和中科院竟然還在用舊版做測試那是一開始就用錯了標準還是整個版本是錯誤的呢"},{"start":6799.68,"end":6822.477,"text":"還有第二個問題才是最大的問題就是那想請問一下就是說我們現在看螢幕上面的簡報顯示這兩份美軍跟北約的技術的文件到底我們是在專業測試上面的標準和指引是什麼呢我看是完全是安全性的測試的標準和指引吧所以中度院現在你們已經自行研發了國造的"},{"start":6823.598,"end":6827.34,"text":"紅準火線彈然後現在最被質疑的其實是穿透力不夠的問題但是送來的整個解凍案報告裡面的說明都是針對這兩個測試都是針對安全性的問題根本完全沒有穿透力的指引和標準所以我們再看一下這個解凍案"},{"start":6842.408,"end":6862.269,"text":"中科院採取了AOP4526這個文件上面的內容也寫得非常非常的清楚就是要解決彈藥跟裝備受到成型裝藥攻擊的安全性那我們再來看美軍這方面的這個文件上面也是做彈藥的安全指引的文件"},{"start":6863.61,"end":6892.242,"text":"我們這樣從剛才看到現在我們下一個結論這個根本跟穿透力測試根本都無關啊所以我覺得現在如果這兩個彈藥安全的安全性的測試都是跟紅組火箭彈的穿透力根本就是完全沒有關係啊如果像我平常是我們說穿透穿透力的話是不是應該採用美軍的TOP系列的標準好像會平常是比較多那是不是會比較適合呢那想請中科院"},{"start":6894.042,"end":6918.171,"text":"先跟您報告一下關於火箭彈它的軍規標準它用的就是安全測試標準那剛剛委員有講到美軍的那個叫ATP那是它的陸軍訓練準則的它是它的準則標準但是也沒有所謂穿透力測試但是我們的穿透力測試我們做的測試就是我們能完成多少穿透力我們有實際的證據那我們也把穿透力的"},{"start":6919.291,"end":6936.923,"text":"數字也在報告裡面做顯示那剛剛我們給陸軍的做的專案報告裡面的確標準後來有被誤植那我們沒有幫陸軍檢查出來這是中科院的錯我們會承認所以你們有穿透力的整個的數值嘛是是是到時候再來送到辦公室來我看一下"},{"start":6937.683,"end":6941.844,"text":"還有剛才我不斷的提問的話都是跟穿透力有關嘛但是我現在在回歸最基本的安全性那請問部長你如果說為了確保國軍弟兄在戰場上的生命的安全的話那我們這個紅種火箭彈到底有沒有一些相關安全性的測試呢我們看一下螢幕上面這些測試我們是不是都已經完整都做完了呢還是只有做一部分呢"},{"start":6961.831,"end":6982.887,"text":"所有這些事關地胸安全的部分所以我們剛剛我們講的標準就是安全測試標準所以針對這個安全測試標準我們當然是一定完成才能讓部隊去使用我想一直使用到現在所以現在整個都是做都已經完成了嘛對不對是那另外再補充一下我們現在對軍矢鋼板的穿透力我們有很明確的測試到300厘米300mm"},{"start":6987.85,"end":6995.972,"text":"OK 好 主席再給我一分鐘一下好 接下來我再問一個國造的無人機上面竟然也出現中國製的零件的發生所以我在想說請教部長為什麼我們國防自主我們自己的國造的無人機上面會有中國製造的零件上面的裝置呢難道我們台灣沒有能力去生產這一種嗎還是零件只有中國才有呢還有我在 我還有發現中科院發有發現那個銳 鴛 二型上面也有中國製的"},{"start":7016.158,"end":7020.262,"text":"的零件嘛 目前清查了情況和所有的狀況是怎麼樣呢還有針對零件的供應廠商依照合約要如何處置呢是罰款呢還是解約呢然後因為時間不夠我就一起講一講"},{"start":7031.753,"end":7045.834,"text":"還有日圓二型的中國零件有兩個一個是通信模組另外一個是SD記憶卡的裝置而且這些通信模組其實都是用在無人機的主鏈路的上面所以主鏈路上面如果有中國製的零件其實會不會對我們未來"},{"start":7047.136,"end":7050.979,"text":"國軍在實際操作的演練那時候會構成資料傳輸上面的國安危害呢那以後會不會以後無人機飛上去不管偵測到什麼看到什麼其實資料還沒有回傳台灣都已經回傳到對岸了所以我想說這個的話可以請中科院還是部長回答一下嗎"},{"start":7066.832,"end":7091.389,"text":"這個由鍾惠蘭回答第一個就是這兩型無人機都還沒有量產是在試研制的階段然後我們在試研制階段這個東西是從國外進口的那進口以後我們在進口檢驗的時候發現裡面的確有它的SD卡是中國製的那我們就要求原廠要能更換那我們在台灣我們自己的供應鏈上幫他找到合適的東西協助他來更換而我們從國外進口很多東西雖然"},{"start":7092.17,"end":7113.551,"text":"我們當時在合約裡面都有這樣明定但是他在製作過程因為我不可能到國外去做製成的茶盒所以都是在進口我們最後檢驗的時候會發現然後我們就協助他更換那也同時協助這個廠商在我們台灣來建立非紅的供應鏈這是我們可以做的也是我們最後能夠確保我們所有量產的東西都沒有中國大陸製品"},{"start":7115.446,"end":7140.669,"text":"我跟委員報告我想最後總結從公安部的立場就是說我們希望所有的這些相關如果能夠在台灣有一個完成的完全的一個製程的話我們就能夠避免那這個部分也是我們在驗收的時候主動發現然後要求更換以後量產我們現在為什麼要建立一個自主的一個供應鏈的一個生產的目的也就是在於這樣子才能夠真正的有效堵決"},{"start":7141.971,"end":7148.656,"text":"這個中國製的這個這個產品然後來進口這樣子好那我們是希望不要再發生這件事情啦所以我們想請我想請國防部會後一個月遞交一個書面報告說明金峰一型還有日元二型這兩款的無人機為什麼會出現中國製的零件還有針對缺失還有供應商這些你們會採取什麼樣的措施和未來"},{"start":7167.549,"end":7174.68,"text":"萬一投產前你們會如何改善這樣的鏈路系統給本席可以嗎是好謝謝好那我們先謝謝伊勛委員那我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":7786.716,"end":7808.586,"text":"好我們現在繼續開會接下來有請王洪威委員上台質詢好謝謝主席請顧立雄部長還有我們的空軍司令部參謀長好有請顧部長有請參謀長空軍嗎"},{"start":7817.342,"end":7840.188,"text":"部長 參謀長在今年的5月8號其實發生了一個非常嚴重的事情就是在松山機場的松址部竟然停電將近8個小時之久那這個事情第一時間我看到媒體的報導部長說都有掌握我想部長恐怕掌握的是有停電的狀況"},{"start":7841.408,"end":7860.188,"text":"那其實我個人我自己本身就住在這個松山機場的旁邊所以呢在整個的就全台限電邊阻我們就是H也就是在全台在什麼大停電的時候我們家都不會停電為什麼呢我們就是受惠於旁邊有松山機場"},{"start":7861.529,"end":7863.551,"text":"所以5月8號當天其實附近並沒有停電可是我們的松子部卻停電8個小時這非常嚴重啊大家都知道整個的松山基地的指揮部的任務是整個的我們大台北地區我們的首都的國防"},{"start":7881.667,"end":7899.514,"text":"整個的國防任性不是會因此破功嗎大家都很擔心說如果真的有戰事的話松山機場第一個是不能夠被癱瘓的結果我們自己在沒有任何戰事的狀況之下自己停電而停電八個小時之久啊"},{"start":7900.882,"end":7928.801,"text":"不用等到人家來癱瘓我們我們自己就先行癱瘓好 所以從5月8號到現在已經這麼多天過去了我想請問一下部長能夠掌握到底為什麼會這樣的大停電然後我們未來會不會發生類似這樣的狀況這個會讓大家覺得我們不要說是電力韌性而是整個的國防韌性因此都破功所以部長您所掌握的狀況是如何呢"},{"start":7929.25,"end":7929.977,"text":"我們是不是先請常務長"},{"start":7932.284,"end":7959.107,"text":"委員好 空軍事務部常務長跟您做一個簡單的回報那這個部分首先針對現象的部分先跟您做一個回報那一天因為連日的大雨所以說造成其中一個變電箱一個迴路的變電箱有受潮那短路的狀況造成停電那這個狀況因為它有四個迴路它在修這個迴路的時候另外三個迴路要先停下來這是現象那再跟您報告不會耽誤到戰備的狀況"},{"start":7961.049,"end":7983.423,"text":"停電都不會單倍到賬戶狀況那為什麼它還要變成H呢對不對以後一起限電算了跟您報告我們一般占倍的這個設施分成三個部分第一個在設計的時候它就會分成行政區跟重要的設施我時間非常有限我想請問一下所以這次松子部的停電"},{"start":7984.364,"end":8002.928,"text":"無關於外面台電的它的電路而是我們自己內部的高壓變電的設備出現跳電那是因為沒有維修嗎若一場大雨今日幾場大雨就會造成停電八小時這會不會是一個任性破口呢"},{"start":8003.388,"end":8028.368,"text":"跟委員報告那一天的狀況發生之後戰備的發電機都有接替起來我們有三個保險的措施第一個就是剛剛跟您報告的我們會分作戰區跟行政區第二個重要的設施都有不斷電系統第三個重要的設施都有重要的發電機因為發電機的這個大小好我請問部長您可以接受剛才參謀長的說法嗎"},{"start":8030.879,"end":8037.491,"text":"我想主要還是在於相關的這些了解這個現象之後那我們應該要定期的來去檢視這些相關的一個"},{"start":8044.37,"end":8068.713,"text":"因為從5月8號到今天已經有一段時間了沒有 他們現在就要有一些綠定有提出報告給您了嗎是 他們都有相關的報告上來所以您有掌握另外有一個很重要的問題這個也牽涉到就是到時候今天大概沒有送進來就是有關於我們前進國造的這部分的預算的解凍的問題"},{"start":8070.607,"end":8082.776,"text":"請問一下本來四月份我們的海昆號應該進行海上測試結果延後延到五月五月現在已經五月中旬了那請問一下部長我們現在這個海昆號的海測的時間確定了嗎還是仍然在不確定中"},{"start":8094.144,"end":8110.497,"text":"我想我們現在應該是說我們會進入測試這個波港測試的一個最後的階段我們還是要確認達到海上測試的安全條件我們才會決定實際出海的一個時程好所以現在到目前為止沒有辦法確定出海的時間是嗎"},{"start":8112.71,"end":8129.081,"text":"我沒有辦法給委員一個確切的一個意見那另外請教這個禁新聞就是這兩天有一個內部消息說為什麼會推遲我們的這個海昆號的海測主要是出現了主機故障這個是確實的嗎我想主機的一個都還在進行一個測試調校的過程當中所以確實有主機故障的狀況"},{"start":8141.28,"end":8156.27,"text":"主機應該是說我們還在進行一個系統的一個聯測我想還在進行這樣的一個調教我想備變之後應該就可以來進行海測所以這個報導沒有錯誤"},{"start":8160.011,"end":8186.452,"text":"應該是說我們主機本來就是要進行做一些聯測調校的一個過程那這些驗測我們一定要完全合乎標準了之後我們才會再進行所以顯然到現在沒有合乎標準所以有關於海測的部分當然我們必須要基於一個整個的安全至上因為我們海測是由我們海軍會支援去測試是吧"},{"start":8188.513,"end":8204.747,"text":"海軍會支援測試吧海軍支援測試是不是支援就是這個測試總要有人去測試啊那當然所以我們海軍會支援測試是那我想請問一下那相關的保險買了嗎"},{"start":8208.769,"end":8234.754,"text":"保險因為測試一定需要保險請問一下保險已經買了嗎然後是應該是國外的吧因為國內我想應該大概沒辦法承受這麼大的我們相關只要跟出海測試有相關的保險台船公司跟我們所有那邊有關的專案團隊的保險部分都已經做完完善的規劃所以有關於海昆號海測的部分保險的部分已經有完備是"},{"start":8235.714,"end":8258.732,"text":"好 好 謝謝謝謝王國昌委員接下來有請黃國昌委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請部長有請顧部長"},{"start":8269.01,"end":8292.915,"text":"部長好,治安就是國安,我相信這個應該是大家目前的共識今年3月的時候,有查獲一家深瑞電子之前是說什麼安控國家隊,結果做了丟人現眼的事情說是台灣的安控國家隊,結果在賣中國貼牌貨把中國的監視器改標成MIP"},{"start":8294.195,"end":8320.99,"text":"那具相關的資訊國防部的軍事要塞、關鍵基礎設施通通都淪陷了4月的時候國家資通安全研究院也做了通報他不僅僅是賣中國的貼牌貨他的監視器主機竟然有連線到中國的行為那這個事情就大條了第一個賣中國貼牌貨"},{"start":8322.953,"end":8336.966,"text":"第二個他的監視器主機連線到中國然後竟然說是我們台灣的安控國家隊那這個事情因為很嚴重所以我在總質詢的時候我有質詢卓榮泰院長"},{"start":8338.274,"end":8356.171,"text":"那院長當時我在總質詢的時候可能對於過去這兩個月所發生這樣的事情沒有什麼掌握那也沒有關係那我就給院長時間那院長說他兩個禮拜會要求所有相關的部會來去清查最後的結果回來"},{"start":8357.639,"end":8385.956,"text":"那我等到上個禮拜五對不起他說兩週啊我等到上個禮拜五兩週的時間到了那因為負責統合的是速發部速發部要把資訊回傳回來速發部回傳的是說啊他們目前統計有三千四百項這樣子的產品用在各個不同的部會當中那三千四百項這個數字當然是讓人看了非常的擔心那不過"},{"start":8387.162,"end":8401.597,"text":"他上面的3400項其實不包括國防部跟經濟部他說國防部還在整理資料請問一下部長目前整理資料的情況跟進度到什麼地方總指示"},{"start":8402.879,"end":8426.437,"text":"網友好通知是報告首先先跟委員講一下這個東西是我們在治安健檢的主動發現然後跟回報的事情所以你們如果是很早就發現的話應該資料找就好了對所以我們統部國軍總共有954部是有這個但是都屬於單機跟脫離網域的它是獨立作業的這是我們清查完的全國軍有954部那你什麼時候知道有954部是5月2號"},{"start":8432.404,"end":8461.423,"text":"對,那為什麼上個禮拜不回我資料?我們現在已檢討,我們立刻回覆不是啊,我覺得很奇怪啊這個是左榮泰做的承諾啊我總質詢也沒為難他兩個禮拜也是左榮泰說的那我也願意給左榮泰時間啊啊,速發部回給我的是說你們國防部資料還沒有準備好然後你今天跟我講說原來你5月2號東西都好了那很奇怪,那你們東西都好了為什麼不給我?"},{"start":8463.817,"end":8483.609,"text":"我們下去檢討那你們現在這900多部現在打算怎麼辦因為它屬於單機我們現在都禁止它使用了那因為它沒有跟民網連線它屬於獨立的網域沒有啦 我們一樣一樣來啦現在你先不要牽涉到連線上面的問題啦依照國防部的規範可以買中國的貼牌貨嗎不可以"},{"start":8486.269,"end":8511.576,"text":"所以我現在才問你要怎麼處理我們現在有精進的作為精進的作為是未來現在這900多部要怎麼處理我們已經停用了 全部都完全停用只要停用就算了我們會檢討當初為什麼會有因為這個還要說明原來是我們自己發現的是啦 900多部你要不要跟廠商求償跟他主張要他負法律責任這個是最基本的吧"},{"start":8512.406,"end":8538.28,"text":"你未來當然要改善嘛現在我是針對你這900多部你說有安全的疑慮先停用我同意但是這900多部要納稅人買單嗎這是我的問題這個責任總要追究吧我有沒有說錯沒有部長那個再麻煩部長喔督導一下相關的法律責任該追究要追究啦因為發生這樣的事情還是納稅人買單這樣不對吧"},{"start":8540.32,"end":8566.047,"text":"我們會去檢視一下相關的合約然後來進行 依合約來進行好 看怎麼處置等你們方便的時候回覆給我我也不壓時間 這樣可以嗎好 再來就是因為這種事情一而再再而三的發生我老實講 我非常驚訝也蠻困擾的因為我又接到檢舉說我們的資通訊產品就禁用中國製的東西"},{"start":8569.744,"end":8594.975,"text":"然後呢但是我接到檢舉我一定去求證我一定求證我不會有人給我檢舉我的就算了所以我四月的時候跑去龍門營區按照他檢舉的資料我去了現場我去了現場看那個交換器這個是我在現場看那個機器跟拍的照片大剌剌的就寫Made in China"},{"start":8596.274,"end":8609.768,"text":"那我也覺得很奇怪這是我們政府早就宣示的政策而且這個機子是最近才裝的那怎麼會大剌剌的上面貼著Made in China那我們還是讓他放在我們國軍的營區當中呢"},{"start":8612.918,"end":8636.907,"text":"因為我那天看完了以後我有跟那個我們營區的弟弟兄說說這個事情可能要跟國防部反映一下因為你們應該要有一個標準的作業程序吧今天在你們所提出來的書面報告當中書面報告你們說要在營區裝置繪型警箭案執行規劃報告這個報告寫的都不錯啊"},{"start":8642.228,"end":8670.9,"text":"說你們一定不會用然後有省監人員攝影機不會用絕對不允許但現實的狀況就不是這樣啊部長這件事情你有掌握嗎他沒有通報上來我是不是請參謀長好來是包委我簡單報告一下這個案子他兩個缺失第一個單位是以小額採購而且他沒有呈報到市民部來審核那這個的確是我們要再檢討精進的一個地方"},{"start":8673.753,"end":8690.643,"text":"我這樣說好了啦因為其實我那天去農民營區的時候跟那些弟兄有面對面的溝通嘛其實我覺得那些弟兄其實蠻認真也蠻負責的啦所以我腦袋我一直在想說他們應該不是故意的他們應該不是故意的"},{"start":8691.463,"end":8718.183,"text":"可能是採購的人員東西送來的時候在SOP的程序上面連看都沒看一下這個東西到底是哪裡做的因為他真的大剌剌的就寫Made in China結果我那天在這個影區看的時候我看到這一台因為我在找檢舉人的檢舉機器在哪裡我看完這一台了以後我到辦公室裡面又看到一台更大台的"},{"start":8719.246,"end":8737.43,"text":"又看到一排更大的台那上面一樣是用簡體字寫那用簡體字寫我看了這個就說這個貼牌只限於用在中國的區域那我一看就知道這中國字啦那我就問營區的弟兄說這東西哪裡來的他說是第六軍團從上面發下來的"},{"start":8740.467,"end":8744.436,"text":"這個不是他們買的這個事情他們有通報嗎這個是他們小兒採購沒有沒有他們那天"},{"start":8750.168,"end":8774.457,"text":"他們那上面一張你看的是他們自己想要採購這個不是他們採購的這個他說是第六軍團發下來所以我後來才發文去問第六軍團所以你們怎麼會發這個東西給人家所以後面您查的六個採購暗號那六個採購暗號另外我們查的就是剛才您委員所指導的那個深瑞的那個那個監視器的主機的部分"},{"start":8775.239,"end":8793.045,"text":"沒有啦現在就這個已經不是深瑞這是這不是深瑞的監視器這個是交換器網路交換器是是是龍門營區的四個網路交換器是這個不是深瑞的這個是中國製的你有沒有看一下造物片有有四顆對那我現在的問題一模一樣"},{"start":8793.965,"end":8818.044,"text":"他們說這不是他們買的是第六軍團發的現在問題很簡單第六軍團怎麼會上面的單位發給我們基層的單位直接發中國製的交換器給他們因為你如果說基層的弟兄採購人員訓練不足SOP沒有建立好有一些疏失這個我都可以理解但東西是從上面發下來的問題就嚴重了"},{"start":8819.434,"end":8837.843,"text":"我這樣說有沒有錯這個我要下去再了解一下因為當初我的了解是是他們採小額採購然後沒有循序不是啦 那個是上一台這一台不是這樣那個書面報告他們有回給我再麻煩你們回去了解一下好不好因為"},{"start":8838.922,"end":8863.223,"text":"我相信政府做這樣的宣示 政策上面做這樣的宣示 大家都支持但問題是在執行面上面 從去年到今年一件又一件 一件又一件的爆發那顯然在執行面上面出了非常大的問題嗎部長我這樣說對吧我想我們會再來做一個執行面上面的一個徹底的檢討"},{"start":8864.875,"end":8880.11,"text":"好 那你們執行院上面到底要怎麼樣徹底的檢討這件事情你們方便的時候給我一個書面報告可以嗎是好 謝謝好 謝謝黃光昌委員接下來有請陳永康委員上台質詢"},{"start":8894.844,"end":8897.406,"text":"好 主席有請部長 顧部長有請顧部長 謝謝社委陳委員好部長好本來今天這個"},{"start":8910,"end":8929.91,"text":"聚焦是讨论预算解冻所以在之前我并没有登记发言但是因为前面听到了几位委员那么这个质询有关国际情势以及预算冻结会不会影响到国军的战力甚至油盐转战"},{"start":8932.071,"end":8945.729,"text":"我覺得扭曲了方向我不針對個人來講那現在我就特別對印阿戰爭這個印巴戰爭的這個衝突性啊以及一些分析的方法我提供國防部做個參考"},{"start":8949.451,"end":8968.176,"text":"因為我這是臨時決定所以只是傳了三張圖本來這個圖都是動態的第一個就是10號雖然宣布停火了但是小型的衝突還是有發生最主要就是當兩個國家有空中衝突的時候第一個給我們的不是國際媒體的報導"},{"start":8970.137,"end":8992.462,"text":"因为如果你有个软体你是付钱客户的话你可以看国际民航的机的航道也就知道它是最敏感的第一个航线取消第二个改道所以你用Flightradar24用付款的客户的话你可以回溯到哪一天哪一天当时的民航机立刻改道这是一个预警第二个就是说涵盖大范围的图像"},{"start":8993.822,"end":9004.47,"text":"國防部已經強調了現在都在進行這個所謂J-Cup但是呢那是你的功能整合可是你對於"},{"start":9006.567,"end":9031.016,"text":"民間或是對於我們的國安團隊或者是對比較高階的長官要做報告的時候你不能用一張單獨透明圖涵蓋所以你可以看到這個圖的是涵蓋印度巴基斯坦實際上這個原始檔案是套在衛星照片上這個飛機是動態的圖那麼就是克什米爾的衝突就在中間的那個方塊上面我們再進到下一張圖"},{"start":9033.971,"end":9057.557,"text":"刚才也有委员讲说不要被媒体战心理战误导了中国的东西厉不厉害是一回事我们要了解敌方的强点怎么样预防那么发现我的不足地方怎么强化这一次在巴基斯坦国际媒体记者会说他用的是令克妖怪"},{"start":9058.427,"end":9085.617,"text":"这个是吃豆腐了因为在2001年4月1号美国的EP3在南海跟中共创机那这个飞机紧急迫降在临水机场这个飞机被中共扣了14天美国当时讲你扣一天我就提供台湾一个军售所以2001年美国通过13项军售但后面执行状况我们不是今天的重点在这个14天中间"},{"start":9087.554,"end":9114.493,"text":"中国大陆把美国这个飞机拆解逆向工程我相信在部分Link16的通讯的一些框架概念架构上面他们得到了一些技术逆向工程然后这个飞机拆解的最后是跟俄罗斯租飞机运回美国去这个图是一个矩阵的方块图那一般我们的媒体都说是这个利用这个ZK3直接"},{"start":9116.449,"end":9121.979,"text":"帶飛機 管飛彈那個技術工程他們不懂 我不批評這個裡面告訴你是一個網路架構"},{"start":9123.086,"end":9147.642,"text":"那我们国军也有这个网络架构可是这个网络架构呈现出来的东西你必须用一个图像就像在右下角的那个中间克什米尔那个冲突点的爆发地方都可以显示出来那么根据这个巴基斯坦国际媒体的讲是打掉三架标峰一架苏凯三四一架米格二十九"},{"start":9148.382,"end":9157.002,"text":"那還有一架無人機那這個印度呢對外就講他損失三價不講細節這些啊如果你沒有一個完整的"},{"start":9159.062,"end":9183.323,"text":"网络格局的框架有时候对别人解释是比较难的它不是点度点它是进到系统的框架里面然后做目标的分配至于预警机本身它的项链雷达搜索式的主动项链雷达被动式项链雷达它能不能去控制飞弹的频道那是另外一回事我们就不去谈判看下一张图"},{"start":9184.997,"end":9209.818,"text":"这个图就是给我们做一个国军要做个参考我们现在平常去报告有关这个中共的威胁在台海周遭活动我们只是聚焦在防空识别区以及周遭一点点范围这个是这个今年的三月底这个山东号穿越那我相信我们的航机都有追踪可是对于日本的防空识别区"},{"start":9211.315,"end":9235.028,"text":"東海防空識別區的涵蓋範圍重疊區以及鄰近國家的涵蓋範圍如果能夠標註上去你就知道另外有四條船從東海艦隊下來跟他會合穿越宮古水道的時候實際上日本是全程掌握但這個情資有沒有跟我們互惠分享"},{"start":9236.072,"end":9254.857,"text":"可能沒有及時分享但是還是可以當然交換那這個圖我給的建議就是說我們必須建立一個幅員比較大的一個圖包括了你的防控識別區包括你的臨海基線包括對方的駐地那個是公開資料那用這個情況下"},{"start":9256.857,"end":9276.343,"text":"對於我們在部內開會或跨部會開會或是提供我們高階的到國安會去的時候你看到的是一個完整的構想而不是一個空的圖那麼那個距離是比較難的我這個是特別提供聯二或者是我們做勤研單位做個分析這一次的"},{"start":9278.159,"end":9299.546,"text":"硬扒双方的国际记者会我建议大家去把它英文版的看下来然后交叉比对而不是说因为我们国际的媒体报道就被洗脑了中国大陆它现在技术有突破也有从过去的资料立项工程达到的我们一直是美国的使用客户"},{"start":9300.146,"end":9321.412,"text":"那有些東西要做精進像這一次巴基斯坦承認美國不准他使用F16只准做境內的防空但不能做公式行動像這些東西如果你把印巴的我想後面我們下次說提供一個完整的印巴的作戰圖像給各位做一個參考我們要共同努力也是希望這個"},{"start":9323.112,"end":9337.297,"text":"看到別人的犯錯經驗我們一定要做精進那麼減少失誤這個先立於不敗之地勝兵先勝而後求戰敗兵先戰而後求勝這是給我們一個例子謝謝"},{"start":9340.477,"end":9365.089,"text":"我想我們對剛剛陳委員指教我們是對前進都有您剛剛的圖示這樣的前進是都有所掌握那有關於這一次的相關在印巴衝突之中的這些相關的一些作為我想我們密切的來收住以後我們會來有一個應對的一個作為這樣那林二要不要補充還是"},{"start":9366.172,"end":9390.369,"text":"報告委員 連任次長在這邊跟您做報告您剛剛所指教的 我們會列入後面深入探討的重點那另外還有一些可能也不適合在公情上面跟您做報告的我們後面如果您需要的話 我們會再跟您做說明 謝謝好 謝謝 大家共同努力好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝陳永康委員接下來我們有請馬文君委員"},{"start":9400.272,"end":9402.593,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長要請顧部長部長 早部長 最近因為兩岸的關係非常緊張所以尤其像我們疫情其實也改了不過我們最近看到很多藝人或者"},{"start":9424.201,"end":9433.184,"text":"其他的藝男其實都有發生一些狀況就是他原來應該要服兵役的可是有些人已經超過年齡的限制尤其是藝人有非常多的這種狀況他已經超過他的年齡限制這一部分他是不是仍然需要當兵"},{"start":9441.437,"end":9470.694,"text":"因為他用很多的方式去閃兵這個部分部長不知道有沒有掌握因為我們看到應該是兩部分嘛一個您講的應該是他在這個醫療的這叫什麼經濟局來鑑定他的這個等級嘛這個是一個面向他有可能然後另外您講的應該是說他有沒有涉及到還在這個服兵役的年齡範圍之內所以委員指的是"},{"start":9471.334,"end":9490.925,"text":"我們現在也從兩個方向來講好了第一個就是其實我們看到他那個閃兵集團就是你教授如何去躲避這個兵役所以現在陸陸續續有很多方法出來比如說讓他造成高血壓憋氣什麼用很多的方式然後再找人替代等等然後"},{"start":9491.525,"end":9495.508,"text":"接下來如果讓他們順利的已經過了這個伏兵役的年齡因為他如果造假這個是另外一回事這個部分我們請國防部也應該要積極的去針對這個部分去做一個修正不然你只要有辦法他都可以不要盡國民的義務啊那其他人就乖乖的呆呆的大家都必須"},{"start":9516.305,"end":9523.851,"text":"按部就班的做另外一個就是說如果因為這樣的因素然後超過他的兵役的年齡他就不需要再服兵役是嗎因為我們看到現在有很多的案例他是罰錢就好了那如果這樣有錢的人包括剛剛說有事的人有關係的人有辦法的人其實他其實不用服兵役那以現在兩岸的兵凶戰委可能這個部分會更嚴重部長怎麼看"},{"start":9543.922,"end":9565.705,"text":"我想首先法律上來講的話他如果以這樣故意的一個手段來逃避兵役的話要接受這個法律的制裁部長目前都是罰錢所以其實我們可以看到就剛剛講的嘛你只要有錢有事有關係有辦法那你可能就不需要服兵役而且就過了就算了"},{"start":9566.366,"end":9575.819,"text":"所以這個部分因為在這裡我想沒有辦法立即的有一個有效的一個處置的方式這個部分部長是不是有什麼樣的一個辦法去解決先我們先想應該要怎麼解決好不好"},{"start":9583.971,"end":9591.177,"text":"內政部議政司最近有跟我們聯絡關於前一陣子有一些新聞事件我們這一次會通盤請我們嘗試來主持通盤檢討一下關於體位有很多地方會修我們現在正在進行至於關於違反兵役制裁條例的部分我們請法律司來回"},{"start":9610.339,"end":9634.435,"text":"簡單講就好了因為報委員那個有刑事責任啦因為或許法院的判決可能是用怎麼樣一個罰金的方式來做但是防疫病疫諮詢條裡面規範的話他是有刑事責任的他有一些不是造假啦可是他在其他他可能出國去了然後他回來的時間已經超過現在他就不需要再服病疫有些是這樣他可能出去念書然後大概就沒有回到台灣來那回來其實他已經超過時間了大概現在是用罰錢的方式"},{"start":9642.18,"end":9645.981,"text":"這個要到達廚藝年齡相當的久其實也不會啦三十幾歲有很多出去念書工作其實大概就已經到這樣的年齡現在已經越來越多我們現在說的是因為當大家"},{"start":9658.284,"end":9663.709,"text":"覺得對撫平役可能產生恐懼或排斥再加上現在的整體的緊張的氣氛其實可能很多的方法會出來那如果你們就國防部的立場是要可能在禁國民義務的時候尤其我們還可能"},{"start":9679.124,"end":9696.465,"text":"越來越長那這樣的情況之下我們可能可以更周全對於藝人尤其像今天有提到大概都是藝人比較多啦永和有五個嘛然後行大大概有六個人嘛大概都立即要處理的我們希望有一個積極的辦法"},{"start":9699.171,"end":9726,"text":"我想還是分兩部分一部分當然就是說體位的部分剛剛已經講了那個醫療的一個鑑定這樣子他的體位的這個部分我們要做一個改善那另外剛剛講的就是說如果他是故意的來逃避兵役的話我們會來依法來處理那這個部分我們還要跟內政部議政司來負責因為這是屬於他要由內政部來依送這樣"},{"start":9726.84,"end":9729.503,"text":"這個部分顯然還沒有辦法做一個有效的處置我們現在要講的是它的公平性還有它的公正性這個部分我們請國防部可以在近期可以提出來那另外就是說在上週發生一名師大附中數理資優班的學生他因為未入"},{"start":9747.763,"end":9752.368,"text":"他在南京出生然後未入本國籍滿20年所以不符合報名資格被國防醫學院他撤銷了這個入取資格的事情我想部長大概也知道這件事嘛是"},{"start":9762.239,"end":9781.917,"text":"部長您是法律人台灣是自由民主的國家都說依法行政不管是陸委會海基會還有國防部其實都說我們是依法行政可是我們希望行政單位不要因為特殊的原因政治的目的曲解法令然後去限制國人我想請教一下因為尤其這個是廣義的授教權現在的軍校生是軍人嗎軍校生還不是軍人"},{"start":9788.715,"end":9789.656,"text":"所以不是軍人我們的大陸地區人民我們兩岸人民關係條例第21條的規定因為陸委會就是以這一條提起的嘛"},{"start":9801.26,"end":9827.374,"text":"法規法規我想分兩點簡單跟說明一下就是說該名呢就是說因為他的母親是入籍人士所以當時在這個出生的時候呢應該是在中國大陸是有戶籍的所以他回來的時候他講要放棄入籍的證明那因為放棄入籍的證明要滿20年才可以進入這一個軍事院校這個是在這個軍事院校學生研究生學籍規則裡面明定"},{"start":9827.874,"end":9849.061,"text":"那這個辦法的規定是在民國92年並不是現在才規定所以這個沒有任何最近因為任何的政治因素的考量第二點就是說因為進到軍事醫院教室要培養為軍官的所以我們對這一個如果我們現在有各種不同的學校有的學校念兩年有的學校可能念四年那你所以我們"},{"start":9850.161,"end":9867.474,"text":"按照學籍的規定在他進入學校的軍事院校培養為軍官士官的之前他就應該要具有一定戶籍滿20年的時候才可以報名這一個部分我想部長我剛剛提到的兩岸人命關係條例第21條裡面他說大陸地區人民經許可進入台灣地區者非在台灣地區設有戶籍滿20年不得班任"},{"start":9877.781,"end":9896.604,"text":"情報機關的人員或者國防機關之下列人員這裡面有第一個志願役的軍官、士官還有士兵第二個就是義務役的軍官及士官第三是文職、教職以及國軍的聘僱人員"},{"start":9898.265,"end":9909.093,"text":"這三個在條例裡面清清楚楚的其實他的身份背景有詳細的一個規範可是軍校生他並不是軍人在我們"},{"start":9911.089,"end":9927.12,"text":"民國96年以後他已經不是了他被取消軍公教人員的年終工作獎金軍校學生在95年以前是下士的軍人身份可是96年以後就不是了所以他並沒有在兩岸人民關係條例第21條裡面受規範的這樣的人你如果說在招生檢章你寫的這樣的規定可是你抵觸到法令或者憲法的時候其實他是不被允許的"},{"start":9938.487,"end":9953.614,"text":"我們現在在這裡是針對這個部分如果像這樣因為我們要限制的是怕可能有被滲透或者可能有其他的考量可是因為這個學生他雖然他是在大陸出生他兩歲就回到台灣他父親也是台灣人他一直都在台灣成長、就學他只是想念這個學校他本身並不具備軍人身分如果以這個條例來看他並不會被限制部長您說是嗎?"},{"start":9968.188,"end":9977.85,"text":"但是我們認為他是培養這一個軍事觀的一個搖籃我們認為我們對國軍有他是醫學院如果照這樣說那我們孫立芳將軍其實他年紀更大你是說你們國防部講的說法是說因為他那時候還沒有這個法律規定可是如果照部長現在說的我們是培養我們的軍人"},{"start":9993.914,"end":10010.281,"text":"我們用的還有包括一些勤制的人員如果是這樣那他如果到十幾歲之前他的背景其實更要讓大家注意那你如果只是因為這樣子而且你的法律並不適用他沒有軍人的身分如果他念到國防醫學院畢業以後其實他已經超過20年了"},{"start":10021.966,"end":10026.969,"text":"所以你只是在年限上面去做這些解釋或者就直接讓他不能夠參加這個部分部長你是不是再看再可以詳細的再去檢視清楚因為他是一個優秀的學生很難得"},{"start":10040.849,"end":10059.542,"text":"我想我們的剛剛已經報告過了就是說學籍規則這樣的一個規定是從民國92年就開始我們培養我們有各種不同的學制那也是培養軍事部長我們知道啦可是你是法律出身法律人出身的嘛我現在說你們依據的法律因為你們一直說依法你們說依法可是如果他抵觸到法律你應該要這一個部分去讓我們國人的權益受到保障啊"},{"start":10068.849,"end":10095.075,"text":"跟馬委員報告我們沒有抵觸法律我們只是要求我們比法律更嚴格的一個學級管制高深規章的規定那也不是規定可以超越這個部分因為你現在如果讓他可以他是檢章而已嘛所以這個部分我想在法律上面沒有這樣規定的時候我們的檢章就去把它剔除他的資格這樣是有疑慮的而且這樣子的狀況造成我們國人的"},{"start":10098.556,"end":10121.301,"text":"整個權益的受損我想這個可能還要再多做考慮好不好部長是不是就這個部分在你對於法律未接的情況之下這個部分到底是你用就是我們兩岸人民關係條例他不是他現在是類似一個法規命令的一個規定嗎一個在學籍規則規定不是單純的招生檢張"},{"start":10122.341,"end":10143.878,"text":"他是招生简章啊 你们自己可以看一下我们的学习规则请你们提供出来啦你把你的 不管它的相关的法律规定或者这个法 两岸人民关系条例它的法它限制的是哪些你们做一个比较 然后我们再来做后续的讨论好不好那接下来不好意思 再借一点点时间我想请教部长我们的海昆号现在台船跟"},{"start":10151.718,"end":10179.639,"text":"台船跟中科院在我們如果不管是服航或者要海事的時候那我們軍方要派什麼人去參加有嗎有 我們軍方會有這個海軍會持續會有一個專案的一個團隊來進行那它在海事的時候它的操作是由什麼人負責"},{"start":10183.111,"end":10191.893,"text":"海事的時候有什麼人負責操作所有的武器裝備所有的運行主要會是256戰隊還有海昆的為什麼因為我們的飛機我們從過去如果說我們像我們的F16AB升級或者像永英號其實漢翔他們在製造的時候他們都有試飛員當他還沒有交給我們"},{"start":10209.83,"end":10212.432,"text":"國防還沒有交給我們海軍的時候還沒有交給空軍的時候他們都是必須要自己去測試到安全然後可用然後沒有其他的狀況的時候才交給我們的國軍嘛那你現在海昆號還沒有達到這樣的一個狀況我們有我們的"},{"start":10230.927,"end":10244.812,"text":"剛剛說我們是有256戰隊要去做我們來看一下因為安全是最重要的他們還沒有做任何的測試他還沒有交給我們海軍萬一發生狀況的時候怎麼辦"},{"start":10251.133,"end":10265.285,"text":"我想不是只有256應該是整個專案的團隊那結合256的一個潛艦的一個部長過去因為他必須有台船他們因為他有看漢牆有試飛員所以你如果在"},{"start":10267.167,"end":10287.279,"text":"因為這一次我們是直接委制他不是代工所以就這個部分他的法律責任非常的明確他還沒有交給我們所以他不管不只是保險萬一有發生狀況的時候因為安全是最重要這是台灣的第一次安全是最重要的我們也沒有經驗萬一發生狀況的時候他還有撫恤的問題那他到底是屬於台船的還是我們國軍的"},{"start":10293.823,"end":10321.384,"text":"是 謝委員知道 跟委員報告因為潛艦國造算是一個國內首次來做建造那在我們國內還有我們其實在民間的業界船廠並沒有具備潛艦的操縱跟實際的一個配合的一個測試的那台船公司也已經有規劃要續聘相關的退役或是相關計時人員來協助後續的測試那這個都在進行中所以因為國內的能量不足所以目前還是陳部長"},{"start":10322.205,"end":10350.033,"text":"部長因為時間的關係我在這裡本席要特別提醒一下因為我們是第一次剛剛說沒有這些台船沒有具備這樣的能量可是他已經要做後面的二到八艘了他沒有理由沒有這些人員你像漢翔我們剛剛提這個例子就是他有是非緣我們也有很多退役的或者像這些相關的這些船員他具備這樣的一個能力照理說台船必須要去"},{"start":10352.116,"end":10372.623,"text":"負擔這樣的一個人員因為你現在用國軍這個問題會非常非常嚴重如果發生狀況的時候因為這個不是在海昆號現在不在海軍的編制裡面包括這些官兵的薪水海上勤務還有包括他的狀況我們剛剛提到最嚴重的如果是撫恤他是一個很大的問題對因為我"},{"start":10376.331,"end":10391.978,"text":"我的了解是,我們不管因為潛艦也好,水面艦也好,如果我們都是自己的自主偽製案的話,應該在交接在做相關的測試的時候,都除了有他們本身的專案編組之外,也有我們的接見的"},{"start":10393.798,"end":10412.803,"text":"接到艦的官兵海軍會有人 可是不是所有操作的人員這是有差別的部長這是有差別 不是現在如果您去了解看看因為如果現在還不是屬於海軍的那我們的國軍弟兄如果他拒絕他不要去可不可以"},{"start":10414.212,"end":10425.88,"text":"因為他還不是我們海軍編制內的,他如果不要去可不可以?他在編制內,沒有在編制內沒有沒有,他還沒有交給我們沒有在編制內我們有接艦的資源編制接艦的資源編制跟你現在的海軍編制的正式的軍人,這是不一樣的"},{"start":10436.767,"end":10440.312,"text":"這是不一樣的如果像這樣子你所有的操作全部都是我們國軍的官兵要上船去操作這是有問題我先在這裡提出來我們希望部長還有參謀長大家去思考一下我剛剛的問題如果我們的官兵他不願意去可不可以"},{"start":10458.213,"end":10464.217,"text":"這請就這個部分部長您要回答嗎部長這個等會後再提供資料我們都在專案編組之內沒有部長他還沒有交件他就沒有在我們的編制內這個參謀長請跟部長說明清楚專案的編制內"},{"start":10475.086,"end":10491.841,"text":"專案的編制內沒有海軍它的是潛艦小組你要上去操作包括它的輪機包括它所有的裝備的操作跟這個是不一樣的這個部分請審慎的去評估跟考量而且不要任意犧牲我們的"},{"start":10492.922,"end":10509.797,"text":"受過這些訓練的我們的官兵我知道部長這一次你停下來你有考量到安全性所以我們今天才會特別提醒這個部分我相信這也是部長心裡最重視的那這個部分我們先可以提出來那怎麼樣做"},{"start":10511.078,"end":10525.093,"text":"找一個比較周全的方式或者台船應該自己要去培養這樣的一個人因為他已經接我們第一艘後面還有七艘沒有理由是由我們的官兵去做這樣子的一個測試而且他是有風險的謝謝"},{"start":10530.871,"end":10558.796,"text":"好我們謝謝馬文君委員齁這個接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢黃仁委員黃仁委員黃仁委員不在接下來請羅明才委員上台質詢羅明才羅明才羅明才委員不在接下來有請蔡易餘委員上台質詢蔡易餘蔡易餘蔡易餘委員不在接下來有請鄭振淺委員上台質詢鄭振淺鄭振淺鄭振淺委員不在接下來有請葉元芝委員上台質詢"},{"start":10560.652,"end":10574.856,"text":"葉元芝 葉元芝 葉元芝委員不在那已登記的質詢委員處不在場外均已發言完畢那報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃人委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":10577.717,"end":10606.67,"text":"那這個委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者再請相關機關以書面答覆那立有約定期限者從其鎖定那因為接下來我們還有八件這個討論的事項所以呢我們先來處理一下這一個討論事項討論事項一是處理這一個國防部主管的這個預算凍結提出專案報告並經同意後時的凍置案也就是今天前面報告的這一個部分"},{"start":10607.571,"end":10612.3,"text":"國防部剛才已經做完專案報告了請問各位委員是否同意解凍"},{"start":10615.804,"end":10639.266,"text":"好那同意那同意動之我們將這一個討論事項依舊提報院會那接下來我們來處理討論事項第二項至第八項而二項到八項是這個主管預算凍結案中也是一樣提出書面報告並經同意後時得動之不是專案報告就是書面報告而已那總計有七案"},{"start":10639.907,"end":10665.875,"text":"那這個國防部已將書面報告送交本會請問各位委員是否同意解凍同意同意同意好國民黨人間他們都離開了是不是同意那我們就這個第七案第二到第八均同意動之提報院會那如果沒有問題的話本日會議到此結束散會"},{"start":10669.807,"end":10671.688,"text":"有幾個 蠻多是好幾個是他的案子"},{"start":10698.175,"end":10699.498,"text":"好嘞"}]}},{"id":"161398","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161398","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b37f32a40437fed36a35373469a84e2c3a701a8027e01a390eebc5b1f2304e56a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"15:11:25 - 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特別條例，本席這邊有一些想法要跟大家來就教。這兩天我跟郭昱晴等16委員有一個提案，希望這個相關的提案有機會也能夠進入逐條審查，主要是在第三條裡面增加三款，一個是促進國民健康，另一個是提升藝文產業，最後一個是其他經行政院核可的相關事項。有關促進全民健康的部分，我們知道川普總統在5月11日宣布已經簽署了一道行政命令，就是要推動最惠國的政策，希望能夠減低美國藥價30%到80%。我相信這樣的宣布對全球會有很多的影響出現，在臺灣也有很多民眾擔心到時候會不會用不到藥或是最好的藥物？臺灣能不能夠持續透過這樣的方式來使用？這會造成全球政策的改變，同時我們也會擔心原本使用較低國際藥價的這種情形會受到影響。對此，相關的業界也提出了建議，包括政府除了要持續強化原料藥跟必要藥品的供應相對韌性以外，也要進一步獎勵提升國產原料藥、製劑生產及使用的比例。","我們知道，在這一次的特別預算裡面，衛福部主管的有兩大部分，一個就是挹注全民健康保險，預計要提撥200億元，還有照顧弱勢族群跟提供關懷服務的部分。針對藥價的部分，大家的擔心相信是值得關注的。所以，我們除了希望能夠了解掌握更多的狀況以外，也希望讓衛福部在這個部分能夠有更多的政策因應空間，也就是除了穩定藥價、穩定供應以外，如何搭配賴總統打造健康台灣這樣的政策之下，能夠做一些前端的預防。不知道衛福部呂次長有沒有一些意見可以提供大家做參考？可不可以請呂次長先做這方面的回應？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝王委員對這個問題的關心，我想這個部分主要分三個重點，誠如委員剛剛所說的，目前全世界有關原料藥的部分，主要生產是在印度跟中國，如果川普將整個關稅提高的話，確實會對於全球的藥價產生衝擊，特別是對我們國內藥品的部分，所以健保署目前已經做了相關的準備，特別是這一次200億的部分，主要是希望能夠做這個reserve。另外就是委員剛剛所說的，我們也希望趁這個機會，能夠趕快來推動國內藥品供應的韌性，包括委員剛剛提到國內的原料藥還有學名藥的部分，食藥署這邊也要進行相關的推動。第三就是在藥品價格的部分，區分必要藥品跟調整藥兩個部分，本部目前都有做相關的規劃。簡單來說，我們也要利用這個機會來落實賴清德總統在健康台灣裡面所說的國內藥品供應的韌性，以及國內自主的這一個供應鏈能夠趕快把它建立起來。謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：第二個部分，美國總統川普也在5月5日宣布，美國以外製作的電影要課徵100%的關稅，針對這部分，文化部李部長也表示，將來可能會對臺灣文化產業產生衝擊，所以我們很期待未來也能針對這樣的議題，把它納入到這個條款裡面，提早作因應。最後一項就是其他經過行政院核可強化經濟社會的部分，我們也知道，這個條例預計施行到116年，但是在這段時間，從進入到一讀以後，已經有好多變化出現，包括5月3日、5月8日、5月12日等等政策的改變，所以我們希望再追加這一款，讓行政院未來在因應的時候能夠有更大的彈性空間。不知道主計長或是次長，針對這樣的看法，有沒有相關的意見可以提出來參考？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個應該是OK的，我們在這個部分施行的時間，這一整個預算金額是三年。"],["王委員正旭：是，經濟部次長你也認同嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請賴惠員委員詢答，賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員陳玉珍、邱鎮軍、顏寬恒、翁曉玲、蘇清泉、王美惠、許宇甄、牛煦庭所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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不要再漲了，民眾受不了啊！物價飆漲但薪水都沒漲。除非你能讓全民的薪水都漲，你再去調整這些價格，好不好？我們希望錢要花在刀口上，不要一天到晚想著去消耗民眾的權益，而不是自己自食其力。你只要讓台電賺錢，就不會再漲電價，否則傷的還是人民！謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們現在請王世堅委員詢答、王世堅委員、王世堅委員不在。","現在請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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電王總也留一下。"],["主席：王總也留下來。"],["邱委員志偉：主計長，請教這個三個版本，即行政院的版本、國民黨的版本及民眾黨的版本，我看民眾黨版本裡面有把金額下限都訂出來了，以前有這樣訂定嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對。"],["邱委員志偉：不管是行政院或是國民黨的版本，基本上只訂定一個總額，對不對？沒有講到細項，現在有細項會增加施政的困難度跟彈性，你的看法如何？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們還要再研究是不是有違反……"],["邱委員志偉：你以前有碰到過這種立法例？沒有吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，所以我們就是要……"],["邱委員志偉：你做這麼久都沒看過這種立法例，直接寫明金額要多少。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分可能會限定金額，這樣是不是有違反財政紀律法的規範？這個部分我們要跟法律局做研究。"],["邱委員志偉：你們可能要研究一下，這個是侵犯行政權。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：侵犯行政權，你也同意嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們認為比較有問題就是這個部分。"],["邱委員志偉：另外這是跨部會的預算，之前也有跨部會，以前跨部會都是國發會主導，為什麼這次要由經濟部來主導？這個金額那麼大，就由經濟部來做莊家？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個是上面決定的，不是我們。"],["邱委員志偉：照理說由國發會來統合是比較好。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，以往是國發會來做統籌。"],["邱委員志偉：最後30秒請教一下台電王總。有這1,000億跟沒有這1,000億，到底影響最大的部分是什麼？"],["王總經理耀庭：因為台電現在的淨值大概只有一千出頭的億而已，如果今天能源像是煤或天然氣的價格再有一點波動，再上去的話，萬一受國際情勢，那台電承受這方面的能力是不足的，不足的結果可能漲電價的壓力就非常大，所以我們期望有這1,000億增加我們的裕度，增加我們的韌性，這樣在每半年電價審議委員會在審議的時候，可以給我們考量，這個韌性就可以出來。"],["邱委員志偉：這個邏輯很清楚，所以這個條例是要增加和強化經濟社會國土安全的韌性。"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你要達成國土安全跟經濟社會的韌性，台電要先有韌性，國防部也要先有韌性，海委會、海巡署也要有韌性，要有韌性才能確保經濟社會跟國土安全的韌性。","我一向詢答都很準時的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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,["何次長晉滄：高關稅造成這種……"],["陳委員超明：我今天看到一個新聞，川普總統到沙烏地阿拉伯要買好多好多的晶片，要投資1兆，建立數據中心，人家是拿這個來作嫁。我們臺灣本來還有一點技術的能力，現在是替人做苦工，說要建立數據中心，我們要做我們AI的其他應用，說不定我們是被應用的，我們要保留一點實力，其實臺灣很好左右游走，但是我們現在一面倒，所以只能夠面臨痛苦的時代。我請你今天去看新聞你就曉得，沙烏地阿拉伯要建立AI的整個數據中心，最高級的晶片都在那邊。反觀我們臺灣的地位是「茫茫渺渺」，臺灣在這八年的執政，民進黨不知道要帶我們去哪裡，我們好像是在迷行中。","再請教陳部長，農業部分有一百八十多億，我先跟你說，我們為了要加入CPTPP，我們是從開發中國家要到已開發中國家，像現在在美國開放之後，大家要跟你要求開放，你如何保障我們的農業？怎麼使用這180億？絕對是不夠的。我舉紐西蘭的鮮乳為例，我為了臺灣的鮮乳跟你們戰了很久，你們說會保護臺灣的，接下來我看你們把臺灣那些乳牛一隻一隻宰掉才沒有壓力，這是面對的局勢。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有啦，委員你這樣說，我可能要澄清一下，我們農業部絕對不會說……"],["陳委員超明：我知道你不會啦！我告訴你，你要面對也是有困難，我知道你們在閃避，你不要自我辯護，其實我們早晚會面臨這樣的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們要有充分的準備。"],["陳委員超明：我相信你的能力，但是你早晚要有這種承擔，壞的時間快要來了，請回座。","再來，我談到強化國土防衛能量、提升資通作業環境及設備，哇！這大條了，這是哪兩個部會？是國防部跟海洋委員會？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：委員好，我是國防部副部長。"],["陳委員超明：副部長也很大，我請教一個問題，印度跟巴基斯坦在打仗，你的感覺怎麼樣？我們臺灣資訊時代，怎麼這樣一打下來的話，印度在南亞的大國裡面，很看不起巴基斯坦，突然被巴基斯坦這樣打下來的話，你覺得這個變化如何？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：委員，我覺得是這樣，我告訴你，印巴這個衝突是視距外的飛彈，那兩國都是在本土就是他們自己國家領土上作戰，可是我們今天看到的這個大外宣好像巴基斯坦占了很好的優勢，印度為什麼都不講話？其實在作戰的過程當中有一個隱秘性，就是你暴露的行蹤越多，比如現在巴基斯坦說我的空軍有多厲害，我用了什麼方式去把印度的飛機給擊落了，可是印度就啞巴吃黃蓮、就不講話嗎？某些方面來講，你講的越多，人家越看出你的破綻，為什麼？因為你把你所有作戰的序列全曝光了，這在軍事的隱秘行動來講……"],["陳委員超明：你是講巴基斯坦曝光，還是印度曝光？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：巴基斯坦曝光，他一直講一直講，講到最後，我要跟委員報告，最後慘的是他們的空軍還有國防部，為什麼？因為你講到最後，人家都把你看破手腳了。"],["陳委員超明：所以我們國防部常常不講話，就是我們有秘密武器……"],["柏副部長鴻輝：所以我要跟委員報告……"],["陳委員超明：我現在聽出來，我就是要問這個問題，我了解你的用意在哪裡了。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：跟委員報告，視距外的飛彈是有很多的戰術戰法，它有很多的配合，我要跟委員講……"],["陳委員超明：但是外媒的分析說，一個系統跟多國的系統沒有連接在一起，我現在是要問這個問題。你們的經費1,500億在4,100億元裡面占很多，這個要是放到國防特別預算裡面，國防部拿那麼多錢花，也沒有監督到你們，我要老實講，我一直在看這個戰爭會怎樣的發展，我們臺灣的軍力在哪裡？所以我們不講話表示我們實力很強，我們在暗中蘊藏，你的意思就是這樣？你拿著報告說這個叫做基礎建設，你還要拿1,500億用在基礎建設上就來不及了，到時候就糟糕了，我不知道你的實力在哪裡，我們也不敢問。如果現在情況很不好，我們稍微一問，你們說我們傾中，我們就像共諜一樣、是同路人，其實我們很怕。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員……"],["陳委員超明：改天再請教，我大概知道。","繼續請教海巡署，我當時在內政委員會，管委員那個時候也是，那時候船隻已經花了將近1,000億元了，現在你們還要再買是嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，船隻還是不夠喔。"],["陳委員超明：還不夠？看他們是大型的驅逐艦，我們的船艦都是小型的，你仍然認為不夠嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不夠，我們現在最大型的才4,000噸。"],["陳委員超明：我知道、我知道。"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是中國隨便就是3,000噸，甚至有幾萬噸的艦艇出來，我們最大型的才4,000噸級而已，而且現在才4艘而已，他們幾千噸以上的有好幾百艘。"],["陳委員超明：我知道你們只有4艘，我知道、我知道……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，後階段的造船才開始，我的東西國防預算沒辦法給我承認，我3月26日開了一個會……"],["陳委員超明：現在你要做的最大的是幾噸？"],["管主任委員碧玲：國防預算定義的會議在3月26日開，委員，講到這個東西，其實我是受害者，因為本來我在2月開始爭取，3月26日就開國防預算的定義，現在變成說我是插進來的，我不是插進來的，我不是搭便車進來，我才是主人喔，我在2月就開始要用這筆錢了啊！"],["陳委員超明：現在你是主人，你接受國防部來幫你護航……"],["管主任委員碧玲：沒有啊！國防部預算沒有包括海巡部分，海巡很委屈，我替國家做國防，但國防預算沒有把我們算在內。"],["陳委員超明：好、好，我知道，你也是業務單位。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我不知道錢在哪裡。委員，你如果沒有把這一筆錢給我，我要問委員哪一筆錢要給我們？"],["陳委員超明：不、不，我不敢說不給你們，等一下又說我是中共的同路人，我就「衰」死了！"],["管主任委員碧玲：你就是沒有給我，國民黨現在就不要給我錢啊！"],["陳委員超明：你現在想要做多大？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我只有300億而已。"],["陳委員超明：在1,500億只占300億？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我占300億喔。"],["陳委員超明：300億，剩下1,200億是給國防部？"],["管主任委員碧玲：但你們不給我！"],["陳委員超明：是國防部，你要好好表現。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們本來要開始討論國防預算，4月份才出現關稅的議題，我在3月的時候開了一個會，在2月發新聞稿、3月再開一個會，我們才是最早進來的預算，現在被當作我們是硬擠進來。"],["陳委員超明：我記得你們去年花了1,500億造船，但有多少艘船做出來？你告訴我，你300億要買什麼船？有多大艘？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我現在……"],["陳委員超明：你要做1萬噸級的喔，否則不足以震撼人心，我告訴你喔！"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，如果你要給我錢做1萬噸級的，我會給你磕頭！"],["陳委員超明：1艘300億夠了吧？"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，如果你要讓我們做1萬噸級的，我給你磕頭！真的很感謝你。"],["陳委員超明：要注意一下發展啦！"],["管主任委員碧玲：但是，委員，這一筆錢不能不給我們。"],["陳委員超明：沒有啦，我沒說要砍你的預算，你現在這樣說，電視台……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對啊！你已經把我砍掉了啦！委員，國民黨的版本已經把我……"],["陳委員超明：邱委員在這裡，你不能把這段當視頻喔！大家講清楚，我現在跟你對答，你們要去解釋一下，好像我在砍你預算，我是請教你預算如何用……"],["管主任委員碧玲：對啊！你把我的預算拿掉了啊！國民黨版本把預算拿掉了……"],["陳委員超明：沒有，我是請教你如何使用，你不要說我砍你預算……"],["管主任委員碧玲：是啊，你砍了我三百多億，委員，你有砍我的預算，所以你要給我們……"],["陳委員超明：我很支持國防，我很支持國家海洋委員會，不要說我砍你預算，我還沒砍，你就說得好像我砍了，我很害怕欸！"],["管主任委員碧玲：不能說假的。是啊！是你砍我預算沒有錯啊！"],["陳委員超明：沒有啦，我哪有砍你預算？我現在是問你如何使用。邱委員，你以後要作證啊！我在經濟委員會只是問你如何使用。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，因為你們的版本就砍了我們的預算，委員，你都沒有看，所以你不知道你砍了我的預算，很多委員都不知道砍了我300億！"],["陳委員超明：我跟你說，管主委，我沒有砍你預算，我問你在1,500億元中，你說你只有300億而已，國防部1,200億，由國防部來護航你，你很委屈，本來你應該要比較多……"],["管主任委員碧玲：砍預算不是砍我的部分。不是，到目前為止，我3月26日開了一個會議……"],["陳委員超明：你跟國防部討回來，我支持你啦！這樣可以嘛？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不行，你不能說假的，全世界……"],["陳委員超明：我絕對說真的，我這個人是很老實的，我很老實的。"],["管主任委員碧玲：國防預算的定義是什麼？3月26日開會的時候就不把我算在裡面了，因為那個定義在全世界有各種不同的定義方式，所以才變成是國土安全預算……"],["陳委員超明：你現在說有不同意義，現在是強韌，我想說是國防部的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我好不容易進來了，結果你們現在又把我砍掉。"],["陳委員超明：現在海洋委員會很厲害，你只有300億而已，你不夠要向國防部拿嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：我300億，至少3年的預算可以補喔！"],["主席：不要再砍了，不要再砍了。"],["陳委員超明：好啦！你不要說我有砍你預算喔！現在先說清楚，我聽到都嚇死了……"],["主席：現在都沒有砍了，沒有兇殺案。"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，你們砍了我300億，拜託不要把它砍掉。"],["陳委員超明：好啦！了解、了解。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請邱委員志偉做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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Select，怎麼樣讓我們更多的企業能夠進入這個？怎麼做？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們這次在特別預算裡面有編了100億，這100億除了剛剛委員講到的協助海外展覽之外，另外還有針對廠商到海外擴展通路的部分，包括實體通路或是找通路商、找經銷商、代理商，甚至要設置展示中心，我們都可以協助他們，提供補貼的經費給他們去做市場的拓銷。"],["謝委員衣鳯：可以嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我想要請問主計長，像這樣子的情況下，目前對這些企業進行補貼，其實我們知道，我們也是希望未來我們的稅收可以增加，我們也知道經濟成長來講，是不是應該要讓我們的出口增加？可是這一次對美關稅因應，有可能我們的出口沒有辦法增加，那我們的進口有可能又只能單一從美國來，是不是？不然要怎麼樣減少我們對美的利差，是不是？在這樣的情況下，我們怎麼樣能夠讓我們的經濟繼續成長？當然，你不能夠只看這幾個月搶單，是不是？你對於目前我們對美關稅的談判是有百分之百的信心嗎？有沒有？"],["陳主計長淑姿：當然是有啦！因為我們……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以是10%？還是15%？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這可能是經濟部會比較清楚，因為我們是在後面幕僚的單位，但我是覺得像這個部分，我們原則上是希望能夠透過特別條例的通過，然後我們來編列預算，給他一些資助，讓他渡過這個難關，至少讓我們的經濟成長能夠維持住一定的百分比，而不會往下一直掉。像第一季，其實我們的經濟成長也很好，有五點三幾，所以這個部分表現是很好，但是如何讓它不要一下落得很多，我們是希望能夠維持，這就是我們特別條例所希望要維持的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以在野黨都有提出發現金，你們為什麼沒有評估發現金對於經濟刺激的情況呢？日本目前有提出要發現金三到五萬，暫時擱置了，但是那代表了也是在刺激內需，是不是？我們不知道這會落在什麼時候，這個就像藥一樣，要先準備好，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為以現在的時機來講，他們經過評估，發現金並不是最好的一個時機，我們在COVID那時候是因為大家經濟都非常的蕭條，所以那時候發現金就很能大力刺激，但以我們現在來講，其實我們的經濟景氣是看好的，所以這時段來發現金，感覺上是跟現在不太……所以我們商調的結果是發現金並不是最好的時機，院長他才決定並沒有把發現金排在裡面，所以這都是有考慮的啦！"],["謝委員衣鳯：可是發現金的例子其實也不只有在日本，在新加坡、香港都有這樣的例子，你知道嗎？因為他們也不是等到經濟好的時候，他們是共享。當然，現在的經濟情勢是很險峻的，我們其實非常dynamic，我們也不知道落在什麼時候，是不是？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以在這個情況下藥要不要先準備好？對不對？因為我們也不知道什麼時候會用到啊！如果先準備好，萬一真的會用到呢？是不是？如果用到的時候，也要拿出來，這就是我們政府的政策啊！要拿出來用啊，對不對？我們手上的政策工具就是這些了，如果時候到了還不拿出來用嗎？還要藏在口袋嗎？是嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，一般像健保的話也是，如果藥價要調高，我們要增加一些準備讓它將來對人民的影響是最少，所以健保會有一些相關的補助放在上面，是這樣子嘛！包括一些勞工相關的經費，勞保基金相關的都會放進去，所以有各方面的考量。各業務單位考量的這個部分，我們主計總處就針對這個經費來做一個處理，是這樣子。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，我也是覺得很特別，因為我們在這個特別預算裡面又增加了國防，我們請柏副部長，主計長不要走。"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我想請問有關國土韌性的部分，我們知道從過去以來，我們的貿易逆差都沒有算到國防對美的支出。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：目前是沒有。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這個部分要不要算？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我想在未來來講，如果有機會，在國防預算裡面要把商售的部分加入到國防預算的比例上來講，對貿易利差會有影響。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這個呢？這1,500億有沒有算？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：目前是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：沒有算，還叫我們增加？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我想……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們是不是還有其他的軍購特別預算？是不是？你們為什麼不編在軍購特別預算裡面？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：但是就我們的國防預算仍然是遠遠不足的，以這次來講，我們極力爭取，我們的預算是在現在的基礎上能夠再加強、強化，然後擴大我們的能量和能力，我想這個是我們今天應付灰色地帶衝突最需要的，就是拿這些經費馬上添充，能夠彌補我們在基礎上面的不足，我想這是最快速的建立戰略方式，目前美國也是用這種方式來建立。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你看主計長在你旁邊點頭，他也是想趕快算到我們的貿易利差數字裡面，對不對？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們當然是朝這方面努力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對美的談判才會好嘛！是不是？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們也會把這列為談判的要項。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們有沒有極力去協助？在對美的溝通裡面，你們有沒有極力去協助？你們都沒有極力去協助嘛！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我們現在也在做這方面的考量，也跟委員報告，已經拿出來討論了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，我最後一點問何次長，還有台電的王總，郭智輝去美國了，結果他說如果補1,000億的話，台電就不用漲價了！你們為什麼都不敢講？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你們是不是要趁他在美國的時候聯手把他幹掉啊？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，電價是由電價審議委員會決定的，我們會把這1,000億的補助，如果真的有……"],["謝委員衣鳯：他都敢說，他如果在這裡，他就敢說了！"],["何次長晉滄：會送到電價審議委員會裡面去討論。"],["謝委員衣鳯：他會說這1,000億如果給台電，那就不用漲電價了！是不是？你們都不敢講啊！你們不敢講，人家怎麼敢給你呢？是不是？你們沒有一個人敢講啊！是不是？很多委員都提問了嘛！"],["何次長晉滄：我們還是要尊重電價審議委員會。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但你們都不敢講，不敢講電價不要漲，人家怎麼會要給你？立法委員是為民監督，你們都沒有給民眾好的條件的情況下，為什麼立法委員要答應你們？是不是？好，以上。謝謝。"],["何次長晉滄：我們還是請委員支持。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。休息5分鐘。","休息（14時15分）","繼續開會（14時21分）"],["主席（謝委員衣鳯）：謝謝。","現在請蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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候，討論到後來，雖然基本法還沒有送到立法院，但其實我們已經在協助推動一些作用法，也請各部會要開始慢慢跟上、跟進。在討論的過程當中，因為就AI來說，其實應用才是比較重要的層面，這個應用包含產業，包含很多人民的權益、國家的安全等等。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，謝謝，這個部分大概和早上說的一樣。"],["陳副主任委員炳宇：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是本席要提出幾個點啦！剛才已經說了，本席的草案是由數發部作為主管機關，但是本席後來也發現到幾點，第一個就是剛剛提到的，本席覺得國科會好像比較積極。再來，從組織規模來看，國科會是中央二級機關，編制將近300人，數發部的產業署是三級機關嘛！人員比較少，大概不到200人。所以數發部在法規解釋方面是否能夠勝任？這也是本席後來在思考的問題。","因為時間的關係，本席最後再提一個部分，這也是早上大家在討論的問題，本席想請問一下你們有沒有思考過。像行政院有個打詐中心，它就是在跨部會協調很多事情，所以有沒有可能仿照韓國立法的做法，在行政院設一個跨部會的單位，譬如人工智慧委員會等等，由它來主導，而不是以傳統的方式思考，到底是由國科會還是數發部主導。有沒有這個可能性？目前有這樣的考量方向嗎？"],["葉次長寧：早上吳主委也有報告過，行政院大概從112年還是113年開始，就一直有一個數位政策法制專案平台，因為誠如委員所說，其實它涉及到經濟，也涉及到科技、法律，所以是由3位政委，就是主管經濟、主管科技、主管法制的政委，主持這樣的專案會議。它的成員的確是跨部會的，我們和國科會都是其中的成員，也包括國發會和個資委員會，包括通傳會，都是其中重要的成員。"],["吳委員宗憲：本席知道，不過你沒有回答到本席的問題。大概再20秒說完。我們大概看了一下，和人工智慧有關的，大概涵蓋19到20個部會，它是一個跨部會的業務，所以本席才會去思考，既然韓國有這樣的立法例，或是像我國行政院也有一個打詐中心，它就是跨部會在指揮這件事情，因為單一部會無法解決現有的問題。所以本席也在思考，將來有沒有可能朝這個方向去做？就是在中央直接設立一個單位，譬如國家人工智慧委員會或是某某中心，跨部會處理這個部分。你們兩個單位對這個部分有什麼意見嗎？"],["葉次長寧：我剛剛向委員報告的是，委員這個構想，其實就是我們現在在進行的數位政策法制平台專案會議的構想，我們已經運作很多年，的確會把跨部會……"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝。所以你們也不反對嘛！"],["葉次長寧：我們覺得現在的機制大概就足以處理這個問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，本席懂。副主委有沒有意見？"],["陳副主任委員炳宇：對，就如同次長說的，其實這個平台已經run了非常多年，那……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝，所以兩位也不反對。謝謝兩位，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲召委質詢，官員請回座。","接下來請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,23-1","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳宗憲","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","柯志恩","李昆澤","林俊憲","陳素月","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","葉元之","蔡其昌","劉書彬","萬美玲","張雅琳","郭昱晴","何欣純","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","游顥","徐富癸","吳沛憶","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","范雲","林沛祥","邱若華","廖先翔","許宇甄","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；二、審查委員邱若華等 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常重要的因素。我們非常贊成委員的意見，希望在臺灣的各個領域，不管是城鄉，不管是各個行業，都能夠參與AI所帶來的數位轉型和發展。"],["徐委員富癸：屏東也有好幾所大學嘛！我們也應該提早去布局，尤其是現在正在發展產業園區，希望能夠有更多年輕人願意在家鄉念書、在家鄉服務，這也是我們減少城鄉差距最重要的關鍵，這部分應該要跨部會共同努力。","另外，我們之前針對AI基本法的部分努力，同時也會預告資料創新利用發展條例，這部分因為和個資法會有一些重疊或是競爭的問題，所以產業對這部分也會產生一些困惑。尤其是資料蒐集、處理個資和模型應用的部分，可能會涉及很多相關法令，會變成企業創新的絆腳石。數位部後續針對統合AI法制的適用規劃，有沒有什麼看法？"],["葉次長寧：本部現在在研擬的資料創新利用發展條例，的確如委員所說，我們會特別注意個人資料以及智慧產權的平衡。在法案的研擬過程中，我們當然很希望草案能夠儘快預告徵詢大家的意見，我們會針對個資特別設計，當然要遵守個資法，但是我們也會請個資主管機關適時提供一些指引，幫助政府或產業了解資料創新應用的時候，對個資的部分要怎麼應用。智慧財產權也是相同，我們一直都有和經濟部智慧財產局合作，希望他們能夠適時提供一些解釋，甚至提供一些應用案例，幫助政府或產業正確運用資料，避免侵害智慧財產權。"],["徐委員富癸：對，主要是協助業者辨識方向。"],["葉次長寧：是。"],["徐委員富癸：最後本席再強調，我們支持政府推動AI基本法的處理方式，更期待這部法案不只是象徵性的畫靶，而是一個具體可用、可操作的治理架構。後續針對制度的具體設計，讓政府有管、產業敢用、人民安心，臺灣才能夠在這樣的AI競爭中贏得優勢，也創造多贏的局面，謝謝。"],["葉次長寧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員質詢，官員請回座。","接下來請吳宗憲委員質詢。列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,23-1","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳宗憲","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","柯志恩","李昆澤","林俊憲","陳素月","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","葉元之","蔡其昌","劉書彬","萬美玲","張雅琳","郭昱晴","何欣純","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","游顥","徐富癸","吳沛憶","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","范雲","林沛祥","邱若華","廖先翔","許宇甄","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；二、審查委員邱若華等 17 人擬具\n「人工智慧基本法草案」案；三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；四、\n審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工\n智慧基本法草案」案；六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；七、審查委\n員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案 （僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1144802_00004"}}},{"id":"161386","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161386","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b915c98502b623b05a35373469a84e2c3c717538999138866acd7304d8524b4d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"13:41:59 - 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list了嗎？他們有沒有提給我們了？"],["何次長晉滄：我想談判小組應該都有掌握。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以應該有嘛！我們看到美國也說臺灣提出了很好的方案，農業部長，請問你的很好的方案有沒有包括對美國農產品的零關稅？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，在談判小組……"],["黃委員珊珊：講有沒有包括就好了。"],["陳部長駿季：在談判的過程中並沒有去談到個別的品項要什麼樣的關稅，所有的東西現在都還在談。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，但是我們看到英國跟美國的承諾很清楚，擴大美牛、乙醇和其他農產品的市場准入，這就是美國的wish list，我的意思是這件事情我們有沒有掌握？或者我們有沒有承擔這樣的後果的心理準備？"],["陳部長駿季：以農業部的立場，我們還是堅持糧食安全和永續，會用這樣的方式去跟美國對談。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，要真的換到東西，不要什麼都沒有，然後就放手投降。"],["陳部長駿季：院長也強調，我們是農漁民優先，他一再強調。"],["黃委員珊珊：食安不能放，農民不能受影響，但是很清楚，我們2013年跟紐西蘭簽訂的合作協議之後，紐西蘭2025年就可以進口牛乳到臺灣來變成零關稅，但是消費者有沒有得益？反而讓我們的酪農受到很大的損害，因為它們的價格相當的低，所以讓大型的乳製廠任人宰割，所以我們的酪農受損，臺灣的消費者有沒有買到便宜的牛乳？沒有，這就是我們用農業協定想要去換到更多的優惠，但是從紐西蘭的案例看到我們損失了農業的關稅收入，國內的農業受損，我們希望換到的工業收入其實沒有增加，也就是說，在同樣的合作協議的情況下，我們用農業換到了，結果我們出口並沒有增加，反而是我們對紐西蘭的農產品進口增加，這才是我們擔心的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：酪農的部分，政府還是用很多的預算支持我們的酪農產業發展。"],["黃委員珊珊：我贊成，為什麼？因為它真正造成衝擊了，所以我要說的是，有可能美國的農產品就要大舉入關了，你現在可能有受到影響的，你要拿更多的補貼或更多的衝擊，這些事情在不在你的180億元裡面？"],["陳部長駿季：不在。"],["黃委員珊珊：不在？所以將來還有可能要增加新的預算，是嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：那個就牽扯到後續關稅結果以後……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我現在要說的是，我們希望立法院在審議這些預算的時候可以很清楚的知道這些答案，如果有衝擊，我們都會支持你們，但是我們不喜歡空白授權，各位了解我的意思嗎？最後，主計長，我再確認一次，這些預算你認不認為將來如果沒有按照你的版本，你們會不會再覆議和釋憲？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們要看整個是不是有違反財政紀律法，因為有的是有數據，有的沒有數據，所以是不是有違反財政紀律法，我們還是必須要逐一過濾。"],["黃委員珊珊：我不希望看到這樣的結果發生，我希望各單位應該要跟立法院，包括各個委員會、包括各個黨團都要好好的溝通，因為這三個版本其實大同小異，但是必須要每一項都很具體才能跟國人交代，謝謝。"],["主席：主席作以下宣告：在本席質詢結束後，休息5分鐘。","現在請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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方式、全部得採限制性招標，你不覺得這樣有問題嗎？這樣國人對於行政部門在用這4,100億時怎麼會有信心？2023年3,800億的時候，國發會至少曾表示對經濟成長有多少的助益，我們這次是4,100億，經濟部也提不出數字，且還是主管單位！當你是主管單位的時候，你要怎麼橫向去跟今天出席的其他12個部會做溝通？我都很懷疑耶！"],["陳副主任委員為祥：報告委員，這個採購限制性招標並不表示它就不接受監督或者是會有黑箱作業，它本身並不是這樣，因為它有一些特殊的條件，所以基本上它還是接受到監督啊！"],["鄭委員正鈐：可是採購法第二十二條就都已經有規範了，第十六款就已講得很清楚了，所以你在這邊這樣做的時候，我們就不得不去想像這1,500億到底是要給特定的法人、單位還是給誰啊？是要做什麼樣的私相授受？為什麼要這樣訂？我們希望經濟部、公共工程委員會好好把這部分講清楚。我最後問一個問題，再給我1分鐘，這次4,100億元裡面有多少是內政部用的？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們目前有50億元是針對老屋延壽的部分，另外我們也有搭配跟國防部有關國土強韌的部分。"],["鄭委員正鈐：50億元是老屋延壽的部分，不是一般公務預算就會做的，怎麼會在特別預算當中去講老屋延壽？"],["馬次長士元：我們公務預算有，但是我們目前對30年以上的高齡化老屋4到6層樓沒有結構疑慮的住宅，我們如果不快點做的話，事實上對我們國家整體的環境安全是有很大的影響。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為特別預算是有特別目的使用，這次因為美國對等關稅，所以我們有個特別預算，我們不希望原本該在公務預算編列的，全部都灌水灌到特別預算裡面。"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，這不是灌水，因為這的確有急迫性，編到公務預算會來不及。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你講急迫性我就想到國防部都講急迫性，然後用得採限制性招標，這讓我們不得不想說現在行政部門是不是想要透過特別預算去達到一些非檯面上的目標，讓我們也不得不加強監督和質詢。謝謝，以上。"],["馬次長士元：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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前提出，那我們黃部長本來是說這個會期會通過，可不可以問一下次長，究竟卡關是卡在哪裡，目前的時程怎麼樣？"],["葉次長寧：在2月的時候，行政院責成由本部來接手AI基本法的立法推動跟後續的法律解釋，這中間我們當然會進行一些文字的調整跟一些意見的再度確認，目前大概我們就等待行政院審議通過之後就可以送到大院來審議。"],["范委員雲：所以現在你們的草案已經在政院審議中了，最後階段了？"],["葉次長寧：因為國科會在前面已經做了非常多的基本工作，包括跟產、學、研界的溝通，我們其實只有做微調而已。"],["范委員雲：好。我看過國科會之前的版本，不知道跟現在的版本差異多大，在你們今天給的報告中沒有看得很清楚。你們提到美國跟日本的規範方向是比較soft，比較軟，歐洲歐盟跟韓國是走比較監理的方向，是往罰則的方向走，請問我們是比較接近美日的方向，還是歐韓的方向呢？"],["葉次長寧：應該兩個部分都有，第一個部分以歐洲的部分來說，他大概非常強調所謂人權跟隱私的保障……"],["范委員雲：監理，對。"],["葉次長寧：這個部分我們當然還是會非常強調，但是我們不會採取一個罰則的態度，因為基本法是原理、原則的規定，所以在這個部分保有比較大的彈性，是比較像美、日的方向。換句話說，基本法是一個框架性的立法，這個在國科會的時代大概就是這個預告的版本，就是採取這樣的方向。"],["范委員雲：就是會有監理，但是沒有罰則，是這樣嗎？"],["葉次長寧：應該是這麼說，我們現在有關於風險控管的部分是兩層的架構，第一會由數發部來訂定一個一般性的風險分類的框架，包括如何識別風險、評估風險與對應風險。各個領域會針對他的領域的部分，以他的作用法來訂定管理的規範，譬如說數位醫療，我們的醫療工具如果要使用到AI或這個機器學習，其實衛福部現在就必須經過審核，而且他有審核的標準。同樣的，在數位金融方面也是一樣，銀行業要運用到AI，必須遵守金管會的指引。"],["范委員雲：因為我看到你們也要負責促進資料創新利用發展條例，就是所謂的資料治理嗎？"],["葉次長寧：是，這個部分會有一個專門的法律。"],["范委員雲：那就是在這樣的作用法中，再明確定罰則是不是？"],["葉次長寧：應該是說資料創新利用條例也會以這個創新推動為主，但是個資的……"],["范委員雲：那罰則會在哪？"],["葉次長寧：個資的部分，如果他違反了……"],["范委員雲：個資法嗎？"],["葉次長寧：他當然違反個資法……"],["范委員雲：所以是到時候要修個資法？"],["葉次長寧：個資法的部分目前……"],["范委員雲：還是不用修就可以直接應用？"],["葉次長寧：大部分的個資法條文現在是完備，但是行政院也提出個資法的修正案。我們當然會配合個資法，這是同步並進的，因為資料部分包括個資跟非個資，都會同時來進行。"],["范委員雲：好，了解。因為我看到你們今天的報告裡面，還是看不出來跟國科會比較的那個基本法內容，因為你強調的是算力、資料、人力、行銷與資金，建構AI產業投資生態系，沒錯吧？"],["葉次長寧：對，這個是我們部裡具體在做的事情。"],["范委員雲：另外，提到監理的部分，只有談到資料治理的相關法規，所以我會有點擔心。今天我提出三點關注，我覺得創新非常重要，AI內閣我們是要創新，可是還是應該要在AI基本法中涵蓋三個重點：第一個避免歧視、第二個保障勞動者權益、第三尊重智慧財產權。為什麼要避免歧視？下一頁是我們辦公室搜尋到的新聞，其實大家都有看到，就是如果AI並沒有在乎某些語言裡面出現仇恨言論的話，那到底是怎麼樣的未來？因為現在已經有用AI生成的歌，如果去看新聞的話可以看到多次出現「希特勒」。最近德國在台協會都有提出來反映，重點是這樣的東西在網路上廣為流傳，所以AI的開發者如果沒有辦法處理生成式AI出現的仇恨言論的話，因為它有一種繞過審查的方式，其實這對我們的文化是危險的，主要是對弱勢者是有傷害的。我們可以看到比較嚴謹的歐盟、芬蘭，設置專責機構打擊AI中的歧視與仇恨言論。照目前聽到的，你們沒有要在主要的法規中有罰則，那怎麼去處理這樣的問題？我覺得很快可能就會遇到。","第二個保障勞動者，我想很多委員都有提到，就是根據滿多的研究，當越來越多的公司開始使用AI的時候，其實就是有部分的員工會被取代。那我們如何同時思考保障勞動者的相關權益？這部分雖然應該是勞動部要努力的，但是我覺得這個基本法中應該也要有相關的精神，勞動部的報告我剛看了，好像還是寫得太少，所以我希望這個法中，針對因為AI失業的人，如何能夠依照他既有的能力，予以輔導就業或者是在AI為主導的時代裡，能夠學習新的技能，我覺得這也應該是重要的工作。","第三個智慧財產權，我們知道之前關於媒體平台的相關法規也是數發部，你們其實也暫停下來，但最近又有新的進度。當時有些部分說要放在這個AI基本法，各位應該有注意到美國好幾個報紙聯合向OpenAI跟微軟提告。目前的進度是法院拒絕了OpenAI跟微軟的某些要求，當然他還在繼續中，還沒有看到最後的結果……"],["葉次長寧：是一個summary judgment，還不是最後的。"],["范委員雲：還不是最後，所以在協商階段。那這個部分，可不可以先請問您最後這一點，因為時間有限，您在這個AI基本法會處理嗎？我們臺灣要怎麼因應？"],["葉次長寧：其實委員剛才談的兩件事情，在我們的AI基本法，至少從國科會預告到現在行政院版本都沒有改變，包括必須要公平跟不歧視，這個在第三條有。對於人工智慧利用所造成的失業，予以輔導就業。關於這部分，委員的文字大概也是我們行政院的文字。"],["范委員雲：所以已經有了？"],["葉次長寧：對，沒錯。"],["范委員雲：會跟國科會當時的一樣？"],["葉次長寧：智慧財產權的部分，我們會非常強調人工智慧的訓練結果，必須要尊重智慧財產權。有關於語料庫的部分，我們現在也跟智慧財產局在研擬，希望能夠在AI訓練的時候，訂定標準的智慧財產局授權的條款，來幫助加速語料的釋出。"],["范委員雲：好，既然這樣子的話，那是不是針對剛剛這些點，哪些會在母法中？哪些會在子法中？包含資料治理的部分，給本席一個簡單的書面報告好嗎？"],["葉次長寧：是的，委員剛才提到三點，其實我們現在的行政院版都會納入，而且很多文字跟委員……"],["范委員雲：但是有個問題是沒有罰則，那你要放在子法中，要放在哪裡？"],["葉次長寧：我們會有相關的配套措施，我們可以跟委員做一個說明。"],["范委員雲：好，那一併跟我說明一下，謝謝。"],["葉次長寧：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員的質詢。官員請回座。","接下來請羅明才委員質詢，羅明才委員，羅明才委員不在。","請林沛祥委員質詢，林沛祥委員，林沛祥委員不在。","接下來請蔡易餘委員質詢，蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","接下來請邱志偉委員質詢，邱志偉委員，邱志偉委員不在。","請張嘉郡委員質詢，張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員質詢，鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，另有林沛祥委員、邱若華委員、廖先翔委員、許宇甄委員及邱志偉委員提出書面質詢。","關於今天的會議作如下決議：報告及詢答完畢。委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入紀錄，並刊登公報；對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答復部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,23-1","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳宗憲","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","柯志恩","李昆澤","林俊憲","陳素月","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","葉元之","蔡其昌","劉書彬","萬美玲","張雅琳","郭昱晴","何欣純","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","游顥","徐富癸","吳沛憶","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","范雲","林沛祥","邱若華","廖先翔","許宇甄","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；二、審查委員邱若華等 17 人擬具\n「人工智慧基本法草案」案；三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；四、\n審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工\n智慧基本法草案」案；六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；七、審查委\n員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案 （僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1144802_00004"}}},{"id":"161383","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161383","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b1e6b06318bd0432eebe85dec65e1b640c717538999138866fe8621bf6845105f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"13:29:44 - 13:36:55","影片長度":"00:07:11","會議時間":"2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱若華等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n 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"張委員啓楷：監察院說含量是15.9%，有危害啊！"],["蕭署長煥章：這是含量，但是對大環境並沒有造成影響。這個部分比較複雜，在這邊可能沒有辦法一下子向委員報告清楚，現在就是先做階段性處理，之後針對這個區塊，我們會以階段性、逐年的方式處理含量的問題。不是只有臺灣有這樣的含量，其實每一個國家都有，包括先進國家的乾粉滅火器都有含這個物質。"],["張委員啓楷：但是含量很少啦！本席給你看一個畫面，這是4月12日發生的事，部長也看一下，搞不好哪天你在高鐵上就會碰到這個問題。高鐵傳出火警，因為有乘客的行動電源自燃，這個新聞是怎麼說的？一開始就是用剛剛說的那種滅火器去滅火，結果導致現場煙霧瀰漫、氣味強烈，除了列車的地板有燒灼痕跡，後面還寫了什麼？走道上瀰漫滅火器濃濃的粉塵，所以它不是少量啊！","第一個，這是每個人都可能會碰到的，今天我們是為了捍衛每個人的安全，因為滅火器裡面本來就不應該含這個物質啊！如果照這個規定，本來就不應該。但你現在辯護說它是很少量的，但本席要告訴你，發生這種狀況的時候就不會是少量喔！第二個，本席現在給你看的是監察院的報告，他們調查之後發現有些高達15.9%，所以本席現在明確要求，你們要儘快處理。"],["蕭署長煥章：是，已經在處理了。"],["張委員啓楷：你們現在的逐年計畫是要怎麼處理？"],["蕭署長煥章：目前我們已經公布SiO2的檢驗標準。SiO2的含量有一個標準，會逐年下降。"],["張委員啓楷：等一下！你剛剛說的是結晶型二氧化矽？你們還是繼續用這個物質嗎？很多專家學者告訴本席，這是完全不能存在的。"],["蕭署長煥章：世界各國的乾粉滅火器當中，SiO2是一定存在的，沒辦法完全廢止。"],["張委員啓楷：絕大部分都沒有啦！是因為你們……"],["蕭署長煥章：不是的。"],["張委員啓楷：聽本席說。是因為你們沒有規定乾粉滅火器的年限，對不對？國外為什麼不需要這個致癌物？因為他們都有規定年限啊！粉末式的年限就是兩、三年，但我們沒有限制，對不對？你是專家，請你回答本席的問題。是不是？"],["蕭署長煥章：乾粉滅火器一定會存在，為了讓乾粉滅火器不會固化，SiO2這個物質也一定會存在。委員關心的是它的量，包括比例是多少，這個物質的百分比是多少，這部分我們會逐年處理。"],["張委員啓楷：本席現在不懂的是，剛剛也給你看了，11年前消防署就要求要改，對不對？過了8年，連監察院都提出糾正。第一個，為什麼改正的速度這麼慢？還是完全沒有改？你們到底是遇到什麼問題？"],["蕭署長煥章：這個部分……"],["張委員啓楷：吹哨者檢舉的時候，說裡面的水很深啦！"],["蕭署長煥章：不會深啦！"],["張委員啓楷：本席不管水有多深，最重要的是什麼？就是要保障人民的安全，因為這牽涉到健康嘛！"],["蕭署長煥章：那是一定的。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！所以你們的速度要加快。本席現在要一個很明確的答復，因為本席希望向全民交代清楚，你們準備怎麼做？速度怎麼加快？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們已經公布SiO2的檢驗標準，就是乾粉滅火器裡面含有SiO2的量到底是多少，這個部分一定會揭示在標示上面，這是首先向委員回報的。至於乾粉滅火器含有多少SiO2，目前我們在和業界研商到底怎麼處理這個問題，這是另外一個階段的方法。"],["張委員啓楷：你們的計畫在一個禮拜內提供給本席。"],["蕭署長煥章：是，我們再向委員詳細報告，沒有問題。"],["張委員啓楷：我們再進一步檢討怎麼儘快改正，不要發生危害到人民健康的事情。"],["蕭署長煥章：是。因為資料弄清楚以後，連監察院也了解，喔！原來這是在資訊不完整的情形之下所得到的結果，目前已經很清楚地了解了。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，主席已經站起來了。主席，本席再借1分鐘就好，有一件事情很重要，本席要問一下。關於消防器材的檢驗，以前是經濟部商品檢驗局負責，對不對？民國97年交給消防署之後，你們現在交給兩個基金會。本席的問題很簡單，本席去查負責消防器材檢驗的這兩個基金會，給大家看一下，15個董事裡面，有7個是業者，這不是球員兼裁判嗎？對不對？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，有兩個基金會。"],["張委員啓楷：怎麼可以自己檢查自己的產品，對不對？這要改，好不好？"],["蕭署長煥章：目前是委託基金會處理，我們再來檢討這個方式。"],["張委員啓楷：不要再讓業者介入，他們的產品應該要由你們檢查。哪有人這樣做的？他們的產品要接受檢查，結果自己卻去當裁判。另外8個都有消防專業，可能是消防局長退下來的，這些我們肯定。"],["蕭署長煥章：一半以上都具有消防專業。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！但是這7位就不合適啦！好不好？這7位要換掉啦！"],["蕭署長煥章：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，本席問一個最簡單的，就是標章。你們檢查完之後，部長，綠建築標章是你發的嘛！本席看上面的署名是劉世芳，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：建研所。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！一樣啊！綠建築是由部長發的，消防檢驗怎麼可以由基金會處理呢？把它改過來，以後上面蓋部長的章，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：太多了。"],["蕭署長煥章：做不來。"],["張委員啓楷：你們做不來？不是做不來。如果是環保署，當然是彭啓明署名啊！如果是經濟部的，署名當然是經濟部部長，這是特例耶！怎麼只有消防署的檢……"],["蕭署長煥章：因為消防器材的種類相當多，有幾千萬的量，全部都要政府機關來處理是有困難的。"],["張委員啓楷：所以它的公信力就會……"],["蕭署長煥章：所以委員，現在我們也和UL針對這方面做對接，怎麼樣把臺灣的器材國際化，現在也正在執行當中，目前的狀況是這樣，會再逐年檢討、強化，我們有一些步驟要執行。"],["張委員啓楷：署長、部長，本席提醒一下，不管之後是由哪一個部會認證，或是由誰去檢查，例如工研院，最後一定是蓋部長的章啦！這幾乎是特例，而且和人民的健康、安全有關係，當然要部長認證啊！你們可以由這兩個基金會去檢查，但是檢查完之後，最後的責任還是在部長啦！好不好？你們再看一下，本席有去查所有部會，連綠建築都是蓋部長的章啊！這個部分要改過來。剛剛說的那個資料要趕快給本席，我們要捍衛人民的健康安全，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","請沈伯洋委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","張智倫","王美惠","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍","李柏毅","吳琪銘","張啓楷","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","丁學忠"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部及所屬預算解凍案(密件部分)；二、邀請內政部部\n長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部\n及所屬預算解凍案(非密件部分)","agenda_id":"1144901_00005"}}},{"id":"161376","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161376","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971bb2a4c634128d8923b7f4692fd5f06072c7175389991388661fefedc7491e725d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"12:31:58 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要聯外道路系統只有一個，如果沒有大眾運輸配合的話，其實是有困難度的。"],["吳委員琪銘：署長，當地的捷運萬大線及金城交流道的整體開發都即將完成，在即將完成的狀況下，你能否明確說明這塊地是否有辦法興建大巨蛋？"],["吳署長欣修：應該是這麼說，如果最後決定要做的話，包括現在地檢及地院的地就合併在一起規劃、合併在一起規劃，因為當初講的是公設盡量集中留設、中央集中留設，我們或許就集中大巨蛋，但其他的點就會變成類似住宅區、商業區的整體規劃，本來就是可以做不同的搭配。但我們希望這個案子是確定可行的，再來啟動這個都市計畫，而不是先變了，到最後卻做不到，這樣就會讓整個都市計畫陷入一個僵局，這一點很重要，應該事前做好評估。"],["吳委員琪銘：現在地方上能接受的，大巨蛋當然是一個選項，再者就是像臺北市的大安森林公園，地方上對這兩者的需求意願都很高，因此我希望未來國土署能好好的規劃這塊土地，好嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：好，我們一定會努力。"],["吳委員琪銘：好。","現在請警政署署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：署長好。去年113年7月打詐四法都已經通過，但我看到去年詐騙集團的詐騙金額高達一千三百多億，而且根據昨天的統計，還有881件詐騙案件，金額達到二億多，看起來整個成效並不是很好，該如何解決？詐騙是全國民眾非常痛惡的事情，該如何解決這個部分？既然打詐四法都已經通過了，但是你仍然無法拿出成效？"],["張署長榮興：報告委員，去年度大概是詐騙的一個高峰，每天大概差不多有4至6億的詐騙金額，去年每個月大概是120億到137億，然而，今年度的詐騙金額從1月份的95億降至2月份的60億、3月份的70億、4月份的76億，現在的詐騙件數及金額已經往好的方向走，但是仍然有很大的努力空間，我們並不因此而滿足。事實上，就是因為透過打詐四法以及國家整個團隊的努力，我想我們會更努力進行打詐的工作，而且就打詐儀錶板的趨勢來看，從去年公布以來，目前這個趨勢是有往下走的傾向。"],["吳委員琪銘：署長，這樣本席就可以比較放心，不然我們看到的金額還是一樣，沒有很明顯的減少，但是照你這麼說是有明顯減少。所以現在這個問題還是要從源頭處理，就是在網路上，因為打詐四法通過之後能夠跨部會處理，所以我們要在第一時間把它切斷，該移送的就移送，該罰的就要罰。好不好？"],["張署長榮興：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員琪銘：謝謝署長。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：謝謝。","黃國昌、黃國昌、黃國昌委員不在。","請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","張智倫","王美惠","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍","李柏毅","吳琪銘","張啓楷","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","丁學忠"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部及所屬預算解凍案(密件部分)；二、邀請內政部部\n長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部\n及所屬預算解凍案(非密件部分)","agenda_id":"1144901_00005"}}},{"id":"161375","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161375","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971bb9f6490915ae2309b7f4692fd5f06072c717538999138866e719f831ea1415b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"12:24:01 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是，你就回答剛剛我問的那個是否可能做得到？"],["周局長幼偉：那個沒有問題，但問題是他們的態樣一直變化很多，我們可能今天做了，明天他們已經不一樣了。"],["張委員宏陸：當然是這樣，所以我的意思是你們要一直更新啊！"],["周局長幼偉：沒問題啊！"],["張委員宏陸：不是你今天做了之後就放一個禮拜、一個月，每天發現、每天更新，我的意思就是這樣啊！"],["周局長幼偉：沒問題啊！"],["張委員宏陸：如果你們人力可以的情況下，讓全臺灣的民眾知道最新的詐騙樣態是什麼，你們看可不可以啊？"],["周局長幼偉：事實上，我們的打詐儀錶板都會把新的犯罪案例提出來，每天也都可以看到新的犯罪手法。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得大家都有看打詐儀錶板，但現在我指的是一個專門的網頁，只要一點進去就能知道最新的樣態，而且不要複雜，讓所有人都能看得到。"],["周局長幼偉：其實165就是統合所有的資料庫，無論是犯罪預防或是其他部分。"],["張委員宏陸：你們都沒有每天更新啊！"],["周局長幼偉：有。"],["張委員宏陸：不是，我要求的這種是，因為詐騙手法日新月異，但我並沒有要求你即時……"],["張署長榮興：委員，我們來檢討處理。"],["張委員宏陸：即時是誰都做不到，但至少要有最新的讓大家知道嘛！"],["張署長榮興：委員，我們這個……"],["張委員宏陸：部長，你覺得可以嗎？"],["張署長榮興：可以，我們來專責處理。"],["張委員宏陸：你覺得我這個建議可以嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我知道委員講的意思，我們會檢討改進，可以把最新的樣態po上去，但是有一些樣態，包括最近在偏鄉地區發生的，我也都有看過，其實都有追蹤啦！"],["張委員宏陸：部長，很簡單啦！我只是要你們把新的樣態拿上去，沒有要你們做到即時，因為即時是不可能做到的。"],["劉部長世芳：我知道，可以啦！我們來檢討、我們來檢討。"],["張委員宏陸：包括部長所講偏鄉的部分，其實有許多年長者都是由外勞照顧，我覺得我們往後能否再思考一下，如何去接觸這些外勞，讓他們能夠告知長者，這些都是詐騙，不然兒子女兒都不在身邊，其實都是這些外勞在陪伴他們看手機。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們現在已經注意到這個部分，包括農會或郵政系統，在臨櫃的部分都已經做了加強，但是在外勞的部分，我們還要再加強一下。此外，我們現在也鼓勵金融機關可以在ATM註明詐騙的部分，但是並不容易，因為金融機關有他們自己的考量。"],["張委員宏陸：我知道，現在我就是給你們一個方向，如果可以就去處理即可，也沒要求你們一次就做到100分，那是不可能的啊！"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸召委。","接下來請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","張智倫","王美惠","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍","李柏毅","吳琪銘","張啓楷","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","丁學忠"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部及所屬預算解凍案(密件部分)；二、邀請內政部部\n長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部\n及所屬預算解凍案(非密件部分)","agenda_id":"1144901_00005"}}},{"id":"161374","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161374","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971bef2072f021dfb3d3b7f4692fd5f06072c717538999138866086e5678e26938075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"12:12:52 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個月內報告，你覺得今年可不可以去處理？把整個行程……"],["劉部長世芳：委員，我們已經在盡力處理，但是有些不是一個部會就可以處理的，我已經講過我們的困難點在這個地方，沒有欺騙。"],["麥委員玉珍：你說不是一個部會能處理，但是跨部會跨在哪裡嘛？我沒有看到你說的跨部會議。"],["劉部長世芳：我剛剛已經報告過了。"],["麥委員玉珍：報告了，但實際上有沒有做？不能只出一張嘴、用講的，而是要用做的，我是希望這樣。希望你在1個月內提出你們部會要怎麼成立新住民發展署的整個流程。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。麥委員，對於發言時間，我都尊重大家、讓大家充分發言，你剛剛已經發言18分鐘了！不是5分鐘，是18分鐘。","請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","張智倫","王美惠","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍","李柏毅","吳琪銘","張啓楷","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","丁學忠"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部及所屬預算解凍案(密件部分)；二、邀請內政部部\n長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部\n及所屬預算解凍案(非密件部分)","agenda_id":"1144901_00005"}}},{"id":"161372","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161372","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971bd15e63fc3573f40cb7f4692fd5f06072c71753899913886666a45ae5360df2805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:44:53 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解凍案的時候，這部分我還會再請教你們，好嗎？","另外，我要提出基層員警危勞津貼的問題，我們可以看到國人夜班時薪是350元，而警察的夜間津貼只有一百多元，部長、署長，我認為這相對的是對我們警察工作別的一大歧視，可是事實上在警察內部發津貼，你們也搞歧視，為什麼外勤有，內勤沒有？外勤是一百多元，內勤是沒有的，我再講一遍，我們可以看到國人的夜班時薪是350元，所以我們的警察已經跟外界的夜班時薪差了一倍以上，在警察內部的同仁你還分外勤的有、內勤的沒有，我覺得這個部分，我在預算凍結裡面也給你們凍結了預算。那麼我必須要講，當時我們要求你們的是，希望你們邀集基層員警代表、專家學者、人事行政總處、主計總處坐下來提出具體可行的方案，聽好，「具體可行的方案」這幾個字，如果今天沒有提到這些具體可行的方案，這個解凍案我今天也會堅持。署長，請問一下，你們的態度是什麼？"],["張署長榮興：對於深夜加勤的津貼，目前……"],["高金委員素梅：我們希望一體適用。"],["張署長榮興：對，目前就是對外去做執勤才有支領。"],["高金委員素梅：我知道，我剛剛已經說了，署長，你不要浪費時間。"],["張署長榮興：所以我的態度，未來就是說……"],["高金委員素梅：我現在講的是內勤沒有。"],["張署長榮興：不是內勤啦！就是……"],["高金委員素梅：我們希望一體適用。"],["張署長榮興：有一些各項的，就是在0到6點的各項一體適用，這是一個理想和目標，我想也可以朝這個方向來做規劃，不過這裡面可能牽涉到就是說，如果真正有在執勤的，比如講這樣一年大概6.6億，如果把全部各項增加起來，大概……"],["高金委員素梅：會多少錢？"],["張署長榮興：一年大概多將近10億左右，光增加這個就比他實際對外執勤的要增加一點多倍。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，我已經算過了，其實你們內勤跟外勤這樣加起來增加八億多欸！"],["張署長榮興：沒有，總共……"],["高金委員素梅：然後這個8億就可以讓第一線的警察達到一體適用的危勞津貼。"],["張署長榮興：委員，這裡面不是只有警察，包括警察、消防、移民還有空勤總隊，加起來是4個單位，不是只有警察啦！那一年……"],["高金委員素梅：署長，我現在問你的是警察。"],["張署長榮興：對，因為這個是……"],["高金委員素梅：我凍結的預算是警政署的預算。"],["張署長榮興：委員，我講的是……"],["高金委員素梅：我會慢慢擴大來幫其他的同仁爭取，我現在講的是警察。"],["張署長榮興：謝謝委員，我的態度……"],["高金委員素梅：我今天凍結你們的預算是……"],["張署長榮興：我的態度是持肯定的態度，就是說……"],["高金委員素梅：好，署長，我為什麼說是可以的？因為我精算過，其實它只要增加8億。","我們看一下警政署的業務和內政部的業務，媒體宣傳費1,192萬，園遊費900萬，更誇張的是一個錯誤的政策，內政部你們推動的新式身分證政策失敗，結果花了多少？10億，然後現在每年還要追加6,375萬元來作維運費，而今天你們警政署的網路科技運用精進計畫，我看到了內容真的是非常空洞，你們要花44億。我們只要區區8億來照顧基層員警，剛剛好多委員都在這邊質詢，尤其今天我們又開秘密會議，看到以後保二總隊的弟兄們有更多更多的業務要做，所以我們希望只有8億的錢讓這些基層員警能夠得到跟外面一樣的，雖然沒有一個小時350塊，他一個小時只有一百多塊，一百多塊才一個便當而已。","署長、部長，你們是他們的長官，你看，黃牛也要他們來管啦！然後噪音也要他們來管啦！他們做的事情真的非常多，只要是人民有需要的，想到的第一線就是我們的警察人員，所以第一線警察人員的付出，他們是流血流汗的基層員警，我認為部長與署長，區區的8億請你們好好地思考一下，好不好？"],["張署長榮興：好，委員，這個部分我們可能會跟人總、主計總處、各地方政府還有我們同仁的代表，我們來做一個研商。"],["高金委員素梅：署長，不好意思，我再花一點時間，我今天凍結你們的預算，我就是希望你們邀集基層員警代表、專家學者、人事行政總處、主計總處，提出具體可行的方案啊！"],["張署長榮興：好，我們會來做。"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，上次我就請你們做了，但是你們一直沒有做，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：有，我們現在在……"],["高金委員素梅：所以我凍結你們的預算……"],["張署長榮興：不是，報告委員……"],["高金委員素梅：今天要解凍你們的預算，你還告訴我說要請他們，署長，這個會不會太……"],["張署長榮興：我們現在在規劃當中啦！我們在規劃。"],["高金委員素梅：那等你們規劃我再來解凍你們的預算，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：請徐欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","張智倫","王美惠","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍","李柏毅","吳琪銘","張啓楷","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","丁學忠"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部及所屬預算解凍案(密件部分)；二、邀請內政部部\n長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部\n及所屬預算解凍案(非密件部分)","agenda_id":"1144901_00005"}}},{"id":"161370","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161370","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971bdb265fd2230ff1d5b7f4692fd5f06072c717538999138866aa4188f185dccfdb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"11:20:38 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委員智倫：謝謝。不好意思，最後我要請教部長，我有收到內政部的採訪通知，過去內政部比較少特別召開記者會，但現在有「向國人報告內政部的每一天」記者會，部長知道有這個記者會嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：有。"],["張委員智倫：就我了解，內政部都是例行記者會，但這次是跟過去不一樣的特殊記者會，所以很多人私下請教我，部長是不是有另外的計畫？這是不是你的畢業報告？"],["劉部長世芳：不要開記者會是嗎？"],["張委員智倫：對，這是不是畢業報告？就是你的每一天……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，跟委員報告，因為明天通常都是我們的部務會議，在過去一年當中，我們有一些內政部服務的項目，因為內政部大部分都是以服務為導向的業務，所以我認為這些業務必須要跟記者說明。"],["張委員智倫：沒有任何未來的……"],["劉部長世芳：我現在把我的工作做好。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["主席：請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","張智倫","王美惠","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍","李柏毅","吳琪銘","張啓楷","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","丁學忠"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部及所屬預算解凍案(密件部分)；二、邀請內政部部\n長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部\n及所屬預算解凍案(非密件部分)","agenda_id":"1144901_00005"}}},{"id":"161368","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161368","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971bdd2bb2d6ac2cac7db7f4692fd5f06072c7175389991388668cba3367f770e7f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:58:36 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["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，頭一年可能執行率會稍微差一點，因為大家都知道社會的溝通跟宣傳是最重要的，所以我們是會把它放在第二年跟第三年，就是衝刺的數量，因為一旦這個觀念打開以後，我想未來申請的數量甚至有可能會超出我們的預期。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，這是有關內容的部分。","另外，我不希望這個東西是治標但不治本，因為我們過去在跟公寓大廈有關的各方各面座談、公聽會等等當中其實都有提到，就是現在會出現這麼多老舊社區的房屋沒有辦法修繕或是等等的狀況，其實是源自於前期的管理沒有那麼周延，甚至在起造的時候，沒有一個長期的修繕計畫，所以我要求你，如果政府真的非得要動用這筆錢去做這些工作的時候，你是不是要有配套的要求，就是政策要修正，也就是現在新蓋的這些房子是不是要有所謂的長期修繕計畫？請問政府打算怎麼樣推動這件事情？"],["吳署長欣修：其實這個部分過去其他委員也曾經建議，就是去修正公寓大廈管理條例所謂的管理費，裡面要不要再區分出修繕費跟管理費。因為這個當然會有比例的問題，而比例的問題就會牽動到興建的時候，到底多少應該是由建商來出資、多少是由管理人，這個部分可能就會牽動整個公寓大廈管理條例內容的修正。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！所以我才講我們都不反對酌量的補貼，但我們不接受錢坑，就是你補了再補，但你的制度都沒有修正，也沒辦法可長可久的時候，那就是補了再補，這個我們是不會接受的。我希望接下來大家在討論這個東西，你要有後續的計畫跟政策修正的方向，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：可以，這個我們可以來研議。"],["牛委員煦庭：再來，有關社會住宅的部分，我們上次其實有提到申請文件是不是能夠全國適用？是不是建構統一的申請平臺？因為現在的狀況是不同縣市社宅申請的方式不一樣，臺北市是一份申請書可以勾選所有社宅，新北市有新的跟舊的，桃園是每申請一種社宅就要寫一次申請書，每個地方的標準都不太一樣，每次申請是不是就每次都要交資料？每次交資料就要每次審，資料不對流是不是就沒效率？這個東西要怎麼樣來調整跟改進呢？我會問統一平臺時程的原因就在這裡。"],["吳署長欣修：我們現在有在做統一，這個部分會從住都中心的部分先開始去做，本署也會一起加入，我們希望我們建了以後，把各縣市都儘量拉進來，尤其是六都。不過這會牽動到另外一個議題，因為六都各自的租金標準不一致。"],["牛委員煦庭：那時候大家都已經慢慢有對焦的方向了，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對，所以會慢慢去對，也就是我們自己先試著從住都的案子先開始。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個一樣會後提供資料，多少時間內……因為是中央、國土署自己做的、住都做的大概是一群，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：然後你跟地方縣政府要開會、整合，那是另外一個階段的工作，你要把明確的時間表排出來。幾個月之內，我要做若干次的會議整合，好不好？請提供。"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：最後我提醒一下，剛剛大家都在提婚育宅，今天我也早上看到新聞，婚育宅是要用既有社宅名額去分，還是為了婚育宅要加蓋？是哪一種方式？"],["吳署長欣修：其實都有，我們到時候推不會只有單一從現在的社宅，包含剛剛講的從租金補貼、包租代管，還有社宅的多元取得，通通都會，所以會散得很廣。"],["牛委員煦庭：我之所以會特別加問一下這個問題，是因為現在有一大堆住宅法的版本在內政委員會，也許我們接下來會進入到具體的討論，現在政府的政策有沒有牽涉到法律修正？會不會有這樣狀況？"],["吳署長欣修：我也跟委員說明一下，我們是從少子化對策這個角度出發。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯嘛！這個大家都贊成。"],["吳署長欣修：並不是從住宅法的角度，我要特別說明，不用處理到住宅法的部分，因為是單純就少子化對策延伸。"],["牛委員煦庭：我剛剛第一個問題是問你，要用既有的社宅，對不對？用既有社宅，如果要給婚育更多的加權，是不是就影響社宅入住的先後順序，是不是就有可能影響比例？"],["吳署長欣修：其實會分很多類，就像我講的租金補貼單獨開出來、有哪些都單獨開出來，所以它是分成另外一條路，所以我們現在不去處理這個。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，所以看起來是另闢蹊徑，不會影響既有的嘛？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我要釐清這件事情。另外就是你要提供這個東西的詳細資料，因為這是大家很關心的事情。"],["吳署長欣修：我們報院，院同意了以後，我們就會公布。"],["牛委員煦庭：你要第一時間提供給內政委員會的委員參考、追蹤跟討論，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝，辛苦了！"],["主席：請許宇甄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","張智倫","王美惠","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍","李柏毅","吳琪銘","張啓楷","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","丁學忠"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部及所屬預算解凍案(密件部分)；二、邀請內政部部\n長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部\n及所屬預算解凍案(非密件部分)","agenda_id":"1144901_00005"}}},{"id":"161366","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161366","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b92ced9340e4c8265b7f4692fd5f06072c717538999138866a6fda1f50879ef4a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:42:42 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來的話，我們會去查處，也希望這些人可以提供這方面的依據，讓我們來做參考，看看是否跟他的商務簽證是完全不符合的。"],["黃委員捷：這就是我們希望內政部可以加強查處的地方，我也希望可以具體落實，而不是我們民眾已經提供了一堆照片、影片，你們卻因為查不到或者是不知道怎麼查，很明顯的，這就是你們的破口嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：我請署長跟您回應一下現在查處的狀況，好不好？"],["黃委員捷：好。"],["林代理署長宏恩：這個部分我們有接到檢舉，就是在淘寶跟小紅書上面有兜售許可證的狀況，我們有接到這個檢舉，我們會去掌握相關事證來依法究辦，以上。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個要麻煩你們了。","再來想要請教一下，這是昨天出來的消息，我看到我們卓榮泰院長說，內政部要推所謂的婚育宅，這有四個方向，包括金額會加碼、資格會放寬、補助項目也會增加，還可以優先入住社宅，因為講得滿籠統的，是不是內政部可以在這邊直接來做政策的宣傳，告訴大家婚育宅優惠的內容是什麼，讓更多的青年朋友可以受惠呢？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的關心，卓院長邀集包括我們內政部還有幾位政委，大家都有關心，也就是說，我們基於現在新結婚的年輕族群，希望能夠鼓勵他們可以多生育子女，所以婚育宅的部分，只要是婚育、結婚的對象，還有他要育有未成年子女，譬如說未成年子女一人或是兩人以上，會做加碼的租金補貼，有關加碼補貼額度是多少，這個要行政院做最後的確定；也包括可以優先入住，或者未來在公立或者是民營的社會住宅上面，如何讓他可以有優先的資格，或者是讓他可以安穩的在他的生活圈裡面，讓他把小孩子撫養長大，這幾個方向我們都在研擬當中。而我們知道目前婚育的對象，也就是說婚育的戶數大概是20萬上下，我們會以這個目標來推動。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長的說明，看起來細節還沒出來，是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是這樣子的，第一個，有關於總體預算到底總共是多少，譬如說我們用8年來分配還是用6年來分配，這個部分我們希望可以納到住宅基金裡面，這個部分可能要以行政院或是主總通過為原則，所以他們一通過以後，我們就會對外宣布。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個要麻煩你們了，當然好的政策我們都支持，好的預算我們也支持，其實院長也有提到，如果是生一胎，補助的金額就加碼50%；如果是兩胎的話，加碼到100%，也就是說，原本可能補貼4,000塊，後來可以補貼到8,000塊，大概是這個樣子嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：類似這樣的算法，但是那裡面還會有不同程度的區分，因為他所在的租金範圍是屬於哪一種社宅，還是要做不同層級上的分野。但是跟委員報告一下，我們認為所謂的未成年子女，不一定就是婚生，譬如說我們臺灣已經是一個多元的成家家庭，只要他育有未成年子女的話，我們都會把他列進去。"],["黃委員捷：好，感謝部長的說明。","最後，還是要幫沒有申請到租金補貼，或者是沒有辦法入住社宅的青年朋友來請命一下，因為現在社宅存量還是不足，其實很多人想入住社宅但沒有辦法入住，這些青年朋友看到這樣子的政策，可能會更覺得眼紅、覺得有剝奪感。另外，這個租金補貼目前還是有一部分的人，可能礙於房東、礙於某些壓力不敢申請，這些人反而沒有辦法獲得這樣子的補助。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，這個我們有想到，第一個，我們現在社宅的完工量，確實沒有辦法追得上這個進度，但是未來我們會在包租代管的業務上面，就是我所說的，也有民營的類似社會住宅，或者是在包租代管上面，也可以申請租金補貼，以這樣的方式來處理，因為大部分人也是希望自己的小孩子可以住得靠近都會區，取得比較好的教育環境，所以我們要顧慮到他所在的區域是在哪裡，還有他能不能申請到社宅。至於社宅的話，先以能住得到為原則，而不是一定要新的，若要新的，抽籤的中籤率就相當的低，所以就這三方面我們都會做一個調整，也就是因為這三方面做調整，所以它的最高戶數是幾戶，行政院還是要做所謂預算上面整體的評估後才會推出，所以還要再一點時間，但是院長所指示的方向是不會變的。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長的說明，希望我們可以用最大的程度來照顧最多的青年朋友，謝謝部長。"],["主席：請牛煦庭召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","張智倫","王美惠","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍","李柏毅","吳琪銘","張啓楷","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","丁學忠"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部及所屬預算解凍案(密件部分)；二、邀請內政部部\n長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部\n及所屬預算解凍案(非密件部分)","agenda_id":"1144901_00005"}}},{"id":"161365","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161365","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b259562d616642ff5b7f4692fd5f06072c71753899913886610bd954f519c80315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"10:34:56 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它的關連性、政策方面、關連項目及實際需要的數額是多少，其實內政部可以直接一次就提列出來，我相信未來在處理特別條例預算編列的時候應該可以一次過關，以現在的狀況大家應該漸漸進入狀況了。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的支持。"],["蘇委員巧慧：應該可以一次過關。"],["劉部長世芳：我們未來會處理，但是有一些譬如像租金補貼這種是長長久久的，可能要放在我們年度的基金預算或是年度預算裡面，比較不適合放在特別預算，但是無論怎麼樣，不會重複編列。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，我希望方向上面可以講清楚。因為時間的關係，反正等一下要審預算，還可以到時候再講，但有一件事情我覺得特別可以請消防署直接回復，因為我特別關心這個部分。我在去年4月15日有質詢，並且通過臨時提案，就是針對我國現行消防車輛裝備及人力配置沒有明確標準，只有在「直轄市縣市消防車輛裝備及其人力配置標準」進行模糊的授權，沒有客觀標準依據，所以我要求要能夠有比較客觀的規程，讓每個縣市到底在什麼狀況能夠配有適當的裝備，沒有錯嘛，對不對？署長也給我一個比較肯定的答復，所以現在已經有進程了嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：謝謝委員關心。這個部分有跟縣市討論過，目前配合最近對地方政府特統的裝備器材採購及汰換，這次已經執行了，跟委員回報。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，其實我也很高興看到你們有這樣的應對措施，就是短期的話，會針對高科技器材、車輛及現況進行檢討、修訂；中期的話，還會委外相關研究公式，對不對？"],["蕭署長煥章：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這兩個都是你們現在已經列出來的，所以我覺得這樣就有進展，很好。"],["蕭署長煥章：是，現在在進行。"],["蘇委員巧慧：但是我希望你在備詢臺上告訴我，第一，消防署自己應該有最多的資料，為什麼要委外？第二，如果同意你委外，委外什麼時候會開始進行？什麼時候又會有結論？請告訴我期程。"],["蕭署長煥章：委員，這個案子已經開始在執行，因為我們委外是包括國外的資料……"],["蘇委員巧慧：已經開始了？"],["蕭署長煥章：包括委員關心最新的器材裝備，這些資料要蒐集回來，我們專案在蒐集，蒐集回來以後我們再跟現在的確認到底哪些是我們可以用的，這個會納入我們後續科技包括化災之用。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，我同意你委外，但是期程呢？在備詢臺直接回答。"],["蕭署長煥章：今年應該初步的結果可以出來。"],["蘇委員巧慧：已經開始了，今年年底會有結果？"],["蕭署長煥章：是的，謝謝委員。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，我們期待這樣的成果，謝謝。"],["主席：請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-19","speakers":["張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","牛煦庭","許宇甄","張智倫","王美惠","高金素梅","徐欣瑩","麥玉珍","李柏毅","吳琪銘","張啓楷","沈伯洋","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","丁學忠"],"page_start":275,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第19次全體委員會議（含秘密會議）紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部及所屬預算解凍案(密件部分)；二、邀請內政部部\n長率同所屬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、處理、審查114年度中央政府總預算有關內政部\n及所屬預算解凍案(非密件部分)","agenda_id":"1144901_00005"}}},{"id":"161364","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161364","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b794656ca014abd50a35373469a84e2c3c717538999138866f4d63c271f6545ab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"13:10:54 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2,075億，也是創歷史新高，我想請教主計長，針對一般性補助的部分，宜蘭縣政府會短少25億5,682萬9,000元，被列為未分配數，這個部分會不會影響到縣政府整個運作運行？"],["陳主計長淑姿：以目前來看的話，因為我們必須要自己刪減636億元嘛。"],["陳委員俊宇：是。"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以636億元這個部分當初一直還沒有確定是要刪減哪一個項目，但是對一般性補助的部分我們就先列為未分配的部分，就是暫時不分配的一個舉措，如果將來確定是刪636億元的話，就是這個部分各縣市要刪636億元。以宜蘭縣政府來看，因為他這兩年都有盈餘，然後本身他這個部分會影響到的是歲入的部分。"],["陳委員俊宇：歲入部分。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為歲出都照編了，那歲入就是會短少，今年比較特殊的就是因為統籌分配稅款又往後撥款，那是因為本來是5月申報所得稅，後來又延後到6月，延後了1個月，所以會延後撥款，導致一些縣市的撥款和一般縣市的撥款就會混在一起，所以就會覺得兩重那個……但是後來像一般統籌分配稅的撥款很快就會補足，縣市一般性補助如果確定要刪減的部分將來就是影響到它的歲入，如果它有自行縮減它的歲出則是不會影響到，但是如果確實會影響，它就可以自行舉債，我查了一下，它目前還是有舉債的空間，也有舉債的額度。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，主計長，我想請教，一般性補助的補助款所會影響的使用面向大概是什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：一般我們分為幾種，就是有社福、有基本設施的補助、還有教育，然後還有一個就是增裕財源的部分，所以我們這一次減的主要是增裕財源的部分。"],["陳委員俊宇：增裕財源？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，增裕財源的部分就是每一年因為你表現很好的部分我們就給你增加一些財源，是每一個縣市都比去年會增加的部分，主要是這個部分來做減少。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，因為我看它是針對包括警察的廳舍、消防廳舍，還有汰換警車、消防車、救生氣墊、垃圾車，還有重要的入口監視系統、行動載具，還有疏浚清淤補助經費以及依中央考核結果核撥補助款均列為未分配數，如果以這麼多的面向來看的話，確實是會影響到整個縣政府的運作。"],["陳主計長淑姿：其實除了我剛剛講的就是有增裕財源，還有社福、基本設施那幾項之外，還有一個是指定項目的部分。"],["陳委員俊宇：指定項目。"],["陳主計長淑姿：指定項目是各縣市自行指定，譬如它要不要買車、譬如它要不要興建廳舍，這個部分都是在後面才撥款，所以這個部分是沒有影響的。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，主計長，因為我在5月12日收到縣政府來函，請我能夠替縣政府向主計總處這邊拜託，是否可以依照原分配數來核撥經費，以利縣政的推展。您看這個有沒有可能？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為這是涉及到所有縣市的問題，是屬於通案性的問題，所以這個部分我們也必須通案性處理，但是如果個別的縣市有問題的話，我們會協助來解決。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我還是要拜託主計長，因為我們宜蘭縣財政本來就不好，早期是被列為第五級，好不容易現在已經脫貧跳到第四級，其實這個一般性補助款對於我們宜蘭縣政府來講是非常重要，假設今年度我們因為整個分配款全國一致性的問題，或許影響到的是全國各縣市都有的問題，對於像我們第四級這種貧瘠的縣市來講是雪上加霜。我也請主計長在這個部分是不是對於宜蘭縣能夠多一點關愛，看有什麼比較好的方式可以來幫我們解燃眉之急，我請主計長是不是可以幫幫忙？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，這個部分我們也特別發現，新的財劃法之後有一些縣市是特別的困苦，這個困苦的部分我們也正在想辦法如何來減輕他們的負擔，然後給予他們協助。以上。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝主計長。因為昨天也私底下請教過主計長，也謝謝主計長昨天也有請同仁在辦公室做了簡單的說明，對於稅收部分是否我們今年度可以超收，可能也是未知數，所以我還是拜託主計總處對於過渡時期這種短期的預算問題一定要幫幫忙，讓宜蘭縣能夠度過這個難關，在我們相關的社福還有縣政的推動上可以更加的順遂。"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["陳委員俊宇：謝謝主計長。以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請林思銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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：這個我們用統計去算。"],["李委員坤城：就是如果台電有漲，譬如漲多少大概物價的波動是多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，它每一個月會影響多少，然後一年下來是多少，所以大概是七、八千元。"],["李委員坤城：大概是七、八千元，好。","最後一點，教育部次長還在嗎？請葉次長。"],["主席：請葉次長。"],["李委員坤城：最後一個問題，你們有200億被刪掉了。"],["葉次長丙成：是。"],["李委員坤城：我在質詢的時候也問過這個問題，我也一樣問你一個問題，這200億如果留住的話，大學的學費能夠不調漲嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：這個對我們大學其實幫助非常非常大，跟委員報告，教育部之所以會編這200億也是因為因應關稅的情勢，因為這個關稅的情勢現在大學有幾個很大的困難，第一個是大學或教學醫院在買儀器設備，很多儀器設備是從美國買回來的，美國的公司因為現在關稅拉高，他製作這些機器儀器設備的零組件成本變高，所以整個機器的成本變高，然後賣到臺灣來就變高，所以我們的大學現在要花更多的錢，要買儀器設備那個費用就變得很高，是因為關稅才會出現這個狀況。第二個是因為這個關稅問題使得很多臺灣企業經營的前景不明朗，現在大學有很多的募款都是來自於民間企業的捐款，所以大學接下來校長募款會越來越困難，這個也是現在大學碰到的一個很大困境，他未來可能就要加學費。所以我們這一次200億裡面其中有一塊，就是經過我們這200億裡面部分給他補助之後，到116年之前臺灣的孩子都不用再增加學費。"],["李委員坤城：就3年，至少大學這3年不會。"],["葉次長丙成：至少這3年不會再增加學費，學雜費由教育部來補給這些大學們。"],["李委員坤城：OK，好，所以這200億也很重要。"],["葉次長丙成：是、是，非常重要、非常重要。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請陳俊宇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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gazette":{"lineno":1113,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時10分）主席、各位在場委員、列席的首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生，由於今天來的部會首長很多，分批邀請備詢，我會先預告請準備。首先邀請我們主計長跟台電的曾董事長，請財政部跟勞動部兩位次長準備。"],["主席：請陳主計長和曾董事長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主計長，我們來看一下台電虧損的主要原因，你認為是什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：主要是撥補民生電價的部分抑制它上漲，所以有連續兩年撥補了將近2,800億元。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問曾董事長，是不是如同我這個統計表上寫的一樣，台電虧損的主要原因是燃料上漲、成本提高還有補貼醫院跟學校的電費差？"],["曾董事長文生：其實我們整體電價在2022年和2023年也都沒有反映，電價沒有調漲但成本有提高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，簡單講是這樣。接下來請教一下主計長和曾董事長，我在4月29號院會的時候有詢問過卓院長，提到在野黨說不如拿1萬元來發一發，民眾拿這1萬元來付多漲的電價，有道理嗎？如果電價漲了，電費帳單沒有增加那麼多，可是額外支出的生活開銷遠超過1萬元呢？院長說這點要請你好好來說明，請問你會怎麼說明？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這是預估，如果電價漲的話，大概每個月電費會增加625元，一年下來大概會增加將近7,500元。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一年會增加7,500元還不到1萬元。"],["陳主計長淑姿：其他的物價也會跟著漲，這樣算來大概增加3,600多元，合計超過1萬元。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以主計總處核算結果發現，如果不補貼台電這1,000億元，拿2,600億元來發每人1萬元紅包的話，結果到頭來因為生活開銷上漲、物價循環波動，我們民眾的負擔超過1萬元，是這樣的意思？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，超過1萬元。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝！我們請財政部跟勞動部兩位次長上來，曾董事長跟陳主計長請回，時間暫停。"],["主席：不用暫停了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不用暫停，謝謝主席！阮次長，如果說拿了1萬元紅包結果物價都上漲了，那到底誰比較虧？我們看看政府的稅收，經過重分配，用來支持產業發展、繁榮經濟，也照顧了社會福利，充實了公共建設，包括國防建設，結果因為我們沒有拿這個稅收補貼台電，就會造成物價循環波動大於普發的1萬元，你認為這對誰的影響大？對有錢人還是對一般階級的人影響比較大？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，我們這個條例基本上是為了因應美國關稅的問題，……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我們有加強經濟社會安全、國防韌性。"],["阮次長清華：所以我們是希望相關的經費要考慮到長遠。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我問你的是如果我們沒有撥補台電，造成物價循環波動遠超過普發1萬元，那麼會受影響加重負擔的是財富階級還是一般階級？"],["阮次長清華：當然是一般階級的負擔比較重。"],["鍾委員佳濱：勞動部陳次長同意嗎？你覺得我們勞工階層會受到比較大的影響，拿這1萬元反而不足以應付物價波動導致的開銷增加，是這樣嗎？"],["陳次長明仁：當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝兩位次長，接下來要請教國防部柏副部長、海委會管主委跟經濟部何次長。首先請教副部長，我們提到了臺美的軍事交流合作有辦法來提升嚇阻中國，你同意嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：美國堂堂說他目前全世界都要去分心，希望盟友自己提高軍費，提高自己的防衛能力，來減輕美國的負擔，你同意嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：因為國防預算編列要看各國家的財政裕度，我想現在已經普遍……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以他說友盟國家要增加軍費，美中的重心要從歐洲移到亞洲，印太地區的友盟國家軍力要提高嚇阻力，你支持也同意我們也應該要這樣做，對不對？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：這是美國的戰略，我想全球都已經看到了，在第一島鏈的情況下，我們配合美國的政策，在這個區塊如何維護區域安全，我想我們有這個責任。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是有個問題，為因應川普關稅，軍品採購比例大增，是不是我們可以爭取改為商售，平衡臺美的貿易逆差？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：過去的軍商售一定是平衡的，現在是快速採購，要能夠快速形成戰略的，在這個區塊來講，可能商售是比較成熟的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝！我們現在請教何次長，增加軍費有利關稅談判，這點你同意嗎？就是說目前美國提高關稅的目的有三：減少美國政府的支出，尤其是龐大的軍費支出；其次是減少他的負債，他現在每年要付的債息就超過其軍費了；另外就是平衡貿易逆差，為平衡貿易逆差因此我們增加對美採購，負債的部分我們先不談，那麼增加軍費是不是有平衡貿易採購，也同時讓美國在軍費的支出有所降低，你認為有幫助嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：我想只要有助於臺美之間貿易平衡的部分應該都是有助益的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：接下來請教管主委，你們提到「海空一體、精銳海巡」，希望增建海巡艦艇，強化部署無人載具，然後在平戰的轉移，你們認為水下監測能量、導入海洋科技有急迫性跟重要性，請教一下，目前你們對於海警的預警到取締有沒有導入無人載具了？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我們目前就是空中的無人機還不足，譬如說我們的艦載，以中國這一次軍演來講，他是用暗船來軍演，當他用暗船來軍演的時候，我們的艦船艇在海上如果有無人載具可以協助的話，我們就可以在第一時間更快的去找到這些暗船，因為他故意把AIS關掉，這些都非常重要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們的大型艦艇是用來拒止，但是你們要導入無人載具可以用來監控，是不是這樣？"],["管主任委員碧玲：無人載具在監控上是非常重要的一部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以目前海巡的無人載具規模足以因應灰色地帶作戰嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前還不夠？"],["管主任委員碧玲：目前水下幾乎是零，然後我們水面的無人船目前也還是零。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以目前我們只有無人機？"],["管主任委員碧玲：空中的無人機也非常的少。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以要加強，無人機要增加？"],["管主任委員碧玲：不是加強，而且是要全面布局。"],["鍾委員佳濱：全面更新，水面的艦艇跟水下的載具都要補充，是不是這樣子？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，這個是無人載具的部分，包括我們的艦船艇部分也要開始啟動下一個階段的造艦計畫。要跟委員報告的是，我們好不容易在有歲計賸餘的時候就開始在內部溝通，一直爭取，我2月時發的那個新聞稿，那個時候我就已經在爭取了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，我們全力支持。"],["管主任委員碧玲：所以當行政院願意把我們放進來的時候，我跟委員講一個事實，我們有一位副署長他是用什麼語言……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我現在要打斷主委一下，因為我後面有更重要的事情要請教你。","過去臺灣的對外貿易是針對消費性的電子產品，臺灣生產關鍵零組件，到低成本的國家去做組裝，然後銷往美國，造成對美國的大量順差，這讓美國很不高興，但是接下來我們的軍用商規無人機，以副部長來看，如果是在美國生產關鍵性零組件，到臺灣組裝後，不銷往美國而是銷往其他的盟國，請問兩位次長跟副部長，你們覺得這個產業鏈的發展趨勢會不會是這樣子？先請教何次長，過去的趨勢是不是這樣？"],["何次長晉滄：過去的趨勢確實是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是銷到美國去，創造我們對美國的順差、美國的逆差。再請教副部長，未來軍用商規的需求市場是在我們亞洲地區、印太地區的盟國，那麼我們從美國買進高階昂貴的零組件，在臺灣組裝好再賣到這個地方去，你覺得這個產業鏈可行嗎？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：這當然可行，因為國際供應鏈要分享，這在現在來講是非常重要的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝！接下來要請教經濟部次長，現在螢幕上列的這些都是過去臺灣產業發展過程當中經濟部創立的產業智庫，這裡面有哪些呢？有紡織、鞋類、食品、金屬工業、精密機械、塑膠、自行車，還有很大的工研院，甚至連船舶海洋都有，次長能不能告訴我哪個是最早成立的？"],["何次長晉滄：應該是金屬。"],["鍾委員佳濱：紡織啦！"],["何次長晉滄：對，紡織。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最晚成立的是哪一個？是塑膠，也超過30年了嘛！因為有這樣一個產業鏈的智庫，所以臺灣各項外銷產業非常的旺盛，對不對？你同意嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：再請教管主委，請問你認為未來的無人載具這個產業有沒有要用到金屬？會不會用到船舶？需不需要精密機械？需不需要工業技術研究院？這些單位是不是都跟無人載具產業有關？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，它有個產業鏈在。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有個產業鏈在且橫跨了這些智庫，對不對？那如果今天針對無人載具成立一個智庫，能夠支持我們今天所需要的無人載具，你支不支持？"],["管主任委員碧玲：如果說是水上或者是空中，基本上還是會分開，以空中來講或者是水面的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：空中的有沒有？次長。"],["管主任委員碧玲：空中的部分，我認為甚至於我們都可以經由國際合作來介入生產端。"],["鍾委員佳濱：何次長，你告訴我們目前空中的無人機載具是誰在輔導？這裡面的哪一個？"],["何次長晉滄：目前的話，我們的金屬中心。"],["鍾委員佳濱：金屬中心嘛！有一個航太產業小組嘛！但是它只負責無人機嘛！剛剛管主委說的水面的跟水下的載具，目前有沒有這些智庫來協助你？"],["管主任委員碧玲：其實船舶中心有部分，但也遇到了瓶頸，大學端也有一些，造船界也有一些，但是整合的還沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以最後我要請教主委，你非常重要，剛剛你說了我們臺灣在應對灰色地帶的作戰上，我們的無人載具是嚴重不足，這次的預算編列中，有一部分是海委會要來強化的，我們全力支持，但是我希望您能針對無人載具，成立一個研究發展智庫的機構，趁這個機會來推動，評估它的可行性，而且能夠透過這次的特別條例包括特別預算，順勢將無人機載具的產業型智庫，我們來一起推動，包括經濟部、行政院都來支持，您支持嗎？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，其實現在google都還有一個新聞，就是教育部鄭部長在擔任中山大學校長時我們就曾經有一個會面，當時就曾經有對外宣告說這樣的一個整個整合的力量是需要的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以很清楚的，今天您身為海委會的主委，剛剛也是幾乎語帶哽咽的表達說我們海委會、海巡在應對灰色作戰地帶的滋擾時，真的是心有餘力不足啦！我們需要有很多資源的投入，那我們是不是也來支持成立這樣的機構，來幫助形成這樣的產業鏈？"],["管主任委員碧玲：這筆預算的初步當然一定要先採購，讓我的量能充足，但是中長期的話，對我們整個產業鏈的發展非常重要的就是需要委員剛剛說的這個。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問柏副部長，你願不願意看到有這樣的一個智庫成立，來支持我們的軍用商規的無人載具產業鏈？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，我覺得這是一個很好的構想，可以研究。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝！何次長，從你們經濟部過去的經驗，輔導過那麼多的智庫，是不是真的對我們臺灣的外銷產業有幫助？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝主委、次長，也謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在休息30分鐘。","休息（12時22分）","繼續開會（12時55分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","現在請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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12:43:30","影片長度":"00:09:46","會議時間":"2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱若華等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n 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Tahovecahe委員：（12時34分）謝謝主席。先請教主席，今天我們是來談人工智慧基本法，而我看了一下聯席會議人員名冊之後，一直不曉得應該請國科會還是請數發部。不過我看大家都請數發部，所以未來的主管機關是數發部，是吧？好，那就邀請數發部次長。"],["主席：請數發部次長備質詢，謝謝。"],["葉次長寧：委員早安、委員好。現在是午安了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：午安，次長辛苦了。"],["葉次長寧：不會。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：其實人工智慧已經在我們的生活當中了，勢不可擋，立這部法是正確的，因為很多問題我們都已經看見了，甚至還沒有發生的問題也可以預見，所以我希望能夠在這裡為各領域援用AI發展提供非常好的框架跟大原則。","我要請教一下。我是原住民立法委員，就我們看目前人工智慧的兩大山頭，一個是ChatGPT，一個是DeepSeek，一個在英文世界，一個在華文世界。而我在想，一個是用大量英文，一個又是以簡體字世界的模型居多，且因為輸入的人多、餵的資料多，所以撈出來的時候，整個思維可能就跟我國不太一樣。我現在想請教，數發部是不是有足夠量能，可以餵臺灣的資料？"],["葉次長寧：委員提到一個非常重要的問題，就是我們當然希望大語言模型訓練的時候，有足夠的臺灣文化語言、文化資料能夠納入訓練範圍之內。過去大概沒有一個統合的系統，所以數發部正在推動臺灣主權AI的語料庫，希望能夠從政府做起、推廣到民間，將語意足夠連貫、適合語言訓練的資料放到大語言模型裡訓練。當然不光是臺灣的語言模型，我們也希望國際的語言模型能在訓練的過程中納入，這個語料庫裡的資料。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：當然我也不認為原民會的資料夠多，雖然原民會現在正在做一個知識系統這樣的大計畫，但是那些東西未來應該都要供應出來、都要放進去，好不好？","我也關心……因為我當過老師，也來自偏鄉，現在很多學生都會用AI寫作業，老師也會用AI教學。教育部在去年訂定了國民中小學學生學習評量及作業使用生成式人工智慧注意事項，但是我想講的是，其實偏鄉孩童很辛苦，因為AI也有貧富差距、也有數位落差，如果比較付費版跟免費版，哇！AI產出來的能力相差甚遠啊！這點很違背教育基本法所揭示教育平等、應對特定族群予以保障的精神。我就想請教次長，我們的AI基本法有這樣的精神嗎？"],["葉次長寧：國科會去年已經在預告版本第三條就寫了，政府推動人工智慧的研發應用要兼顧社會公益跟數位平權，而數位平權就如委員剛才所講的，包括教育平等、對於特定族群要有平等的待遇，這大概也是形成數位平權非常重要的因素。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以未來在這方面可以給他們平等使用的權利嗎？"],["葉次長寧：我相信教育部對於偏鄉學校也好或……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：不，你身為主管機關，法要寫啊！這是基本法的大原則啊！它的作用才能出來啊！"],["葉次長寧：基本法已經寫了數位平權，而且對於數位平權，以我的理解，教育部也一向非常重視。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我希望這部分要特別強調，好不好，次長？","數發部有公共程式碼，是不是也能將合適的人工智慧模型比照辦理，放到公共平臺，宣導偏鄉學童使用？有這個想法、有這個計畫嗎？"],["葉次長寧：公共程式的基本概念在於共通程式元件由單一開發者開發之後，大家都可以使用，但它不會是完整的系統。如果人工智慧也可以發展……在技術上非常困難，但如果在人工智慧方面也能夠開發出共通的元件，當然可以這麼做。照我們的理解，其實現在有很多大語言模型已經是開源的形式，而開源的形式其實就是大家都可以用的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：雖然大家都可以用，但是我很在意一點，就是餵進去的資料如果都是同溫層的資料，那我覺得它會複製很多……包括我剛剛講的歧視、偏頗，這些其實都會應運而生，所以我一再地提醒，就是希望能夠避免這樣的情形發生。當然我們不是專家，但我們仍希望這個東西是平權的，不能因為貧富差距、階級不同就得到不同東西，我不希望AI創造出這樣的不平等。所以我希望數發部能夠協同原民會針對AI的發展研討有沒有什麼樣的因應措施、資料的使用、監管機制，也希望立法的時候能夠關注偏鄉跟特定族群，避免加劇這種數位落差。我更希望數發部能夠研擬公共的人工智慧模型。次長，這些訴求可以嗎？"],["葉次長寧：我們會盡力來做，一定會跟原民會合作，這沒有問題，數位平權也是本部所在乎的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["葉次長寧：至於人工智慧模型有沒有發展到公共程式的程度，恐怕目前還有一些技術跟推展上的困難。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：沒有關係，我希望至少能給我們辦公室一個書面資料，方便我未來追蹤。"],["葉次長寧：包括公共程式的說明資料，我們都會提供。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝次長、謝謝主席。"],["葉次長寧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢，官員請回座。雖然我們在主管機關上有不同想法跟討論，但是伍委員剛剛的訴求非常好，我們也可以一起期待跟努力，謝謝。","接下來有請游顥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,23-1","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳宗憲","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","柯志恩","李昆澤","林俊憲","陳素月","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","葉元之","蔡其昌","劉書彬","萬美玲","張雅琳","郭昱晴","何欣純","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","游顥","徐富癸","吳沛憶","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","范雲","林沛祥","邱若華","廖先翔","許宇甄","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；二、審查委員邱若華等 17 人擬具\n「人工智慧基本法草案」案；三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；四、\n審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工\n智慧基本法草案」案；六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；七、審查委\n員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案 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market，可能在這個部分你也是要跟勞動部去討論，以後在做綠領人才的培養的時候，你是不是要把這方面所產生的、所削減的，去做計算，然後做合理的10年或5年的規劃，是不是這樣？"],["彭部長啓明：好。謝謝委員。這個其實我跟勞動部洪部長有一個默契，因為我相信洪部長也還滿懂得氣候變遷的，所以我們會組成一個平台，探討這個細緻的問題，因為我覺得這個轉型的過程當中，未來一定跟現在不一樣。"],["盧委員縣一：關於這個報告，每次我都看得很仔細，但看的時候都看不到原民會，所以每次「等15個部會」的時候，就沒有原民會……"],["彭部長啓明：有！有！有！"],["盧委員縣一：其實你要考慮到原住民立委，我有看到「教育部、內政部、經濟部」，但看到最後只有「等15個部會」，覺得根本就沒有把原民會放在裡面，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：我瞭解一下。"],["盧委員縣一：所以你在培養綠領人才的時候，這些比較關鍵的字眼還是要有，這樣我們就有被尊重的感覺，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["盧委員縣一：針對工作的置換，或是以後會被保全、會被增加的時候，其實在歐洲的國家也有做研究，以英國為例，如果是做飲料的，可以created四萬多個工作、可以保全九萬多個工作，其實都是很有品質地去精算，可以瞭解未來的產業發展，所以我希望我們環境部、勞動部這邊可以做更細緻的規劃，以後在年輕人做生涯規劃或是未來傳統產業想要轉型的時候，他們就有一些依據，我們一起來努力。謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好。謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝盧委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請蔡易餘委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林淑芬","王正旭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","陳培瑜","楊曜","盧縣一","蔡易餘","廖偉翔"],"page_start":369,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、勞動部及教育部就「我國推動綠色轉型政策，相關人才培育發展\n與產業政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟\n部、農業部及教育部就「全氟及多氟烷基物質(PFAS)管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化\n物相關管理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢【專題報告綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1145001_00015"}}},{"id":"161356","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161356","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971bf35ad39a9e374c37ebe85dec65e1b64032c61d2bb6e1b5d90cd442c3dfdba8065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"12:11:40 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，在行政院研擬的草案裡面大概會分成兩個部分，第一個部分，我們會先建立一個AI風險分類的框架，意思就是說它去識別這些風險會發生在國家社會端、在個人端、還是在系統端，在這個分類框架之下，各部會針對它主管的領域，可以根據風險的高低來訂定層級化的管理規範。以委員特別關心的兒少部分，其實我們的兒童及少年性剝削防制條例現在修法已經禁止利用生成式AI來生成AI的性剝削內容，在這個條例的第二條的立法理由，也把生成式人工智慧所生成的兒少色情圖畫納入規範的範圍之內。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，這個部分如果有更加明確的法規規範，我們就一起往這個方向來努力。"],["葉次長寧：是，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：另外，有越來越多人在關注，因為很多人碰到心理層面的問題，他就會求助於AI來做心理治療，但是問題是，光是用人工智慧，其實它不能夠用所謂的情緒穩定，或者是它在評判的時候並非是真人的心理治療師，但往往也因為這整個過程，它的偽專業角色沒有被納入高風險管理的機制當中，有可能導致很多人情緒失控或者是誤導性治療，變成一個非常危險的人工智慧的工具，這個部分我們怎麼樣來因應？"],["葉次長寧：如果他是從事心理治療，按照心理師法的規定，除非有證照，否則不能進行，不然會有刑責，意思就是說如果有人利用AI系統來經營心理師的業務，現在按照心理師法，它其實是一個犯罪行為。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，除了心理師以外，其實還有哦！包含醫師也好、律師也好等等的身分，其實我們都應該有一個比較嚴格的框架。"],["葉次長寧：是，專任職業都有規定如果沒有取得證照，包括律師，包括醫師，他不可以經營該項業務，不管是透過……"],["郭委員昱晴：好，除了這樣子的一個框架把它匡住以外，我們有沒有申訴的管道或者是怎麼樣來做監督的機制？有沒有更具體的做法？"],["葉次長寧：如果有人使用AI來經營心理師的業務、律師的業務或醫師的業務，都是犯罪行為。最近其實在心理師的部分也有沒有照的公司被起訴，情形也是一樣，如果用AI做，也不會因此免除刑責。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，因為今天時間的關係，謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員的質詢，次長請回座。因為剛才有部會建議我們就一路質詢到結束，但是時間可能會比較長，我們也謝謝所有委員對AI基本法的關心，所以如果有部會官員或者同仁希望提前用餐，我想是可以同步進行，謝謝。","接下來有請何欣純委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,23-1","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳宗憲","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","柯志恩","李昆澤","林俊憲","陳素月","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","葉元之","蔡其昌","劉書彬","萬美玲","張雅琳","郭昱晴","何欣純","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","游顥","徐富癸","吳沛憶","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","范雲","林沛祥","邱若華","廖先翔","許宇甄","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；二、審查委員邱若華等 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],["張委員雅琳：好，我好像還是沒有被說服，沒關係，我們約時間……"],["林組長青嶔：沒關係，我們再跟委員……"],["張委員雅琳：因為我時間已經到了，我們再約時間來討論這個。"],["林組長青嶔：好，是，沒問題。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我們儘快約時間，好嗎？"],["林組長青嶔：好，沒問題。"],["張委員雅琳：最後一個，我想再確認一下，因為人工智慧基本法現在在主管機關上面是沒有寫的，當時國科會回復給我是說基本法大多數沒有主管機關，但是我們也可以看到，其實青年基本法就有主管機關，所以我想問一下，既然已經確定是數發部了，對不對？我們是不是就應該在法規裡面、法案裡面去明確化？"],["葉次長寧：過去的11個基本法多數沒有定，特別是AI基本法，我們覺得不太適合的原因就是AI基本法的業務，青年基本法或許青年的業務很清楚，但是AI基本法很明顯地涉及到各個不同的業務，所以它不是單一部會的問題，譬如勞動一定涉及到勞動部，教育一定涉及到教育部，所以我們在條文裡面有講到，將來的法規解釋會由數位的主管機關（就是本部）跟各目的事業主管機關來進行法規調適。但是我們還是建議，特別是一個跨部會，整個政府要推動的法律……"],["張委員雅琳：我想青年基本法也是橫跨很多部會，像勞動部啊！因為青年的勞動力，其實也是一樣的狀態，所以這一點我好像也沒有被說服欸！好，這個部分的話……"],["葉次長寧：我們過去所定的，不管是文化基本法、教育基本法，或者是科技基本法、環境基本法，都是採取沒有主管機關的體例。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我認為沒有主管機關就很難去要求，也很難有一個當責的角色，所以到時候在我的版本上面，我還是會把它放上去。","最後，剛剛我有聽到其他委員在講為什麼行政院把它改成數發部這件事情，我這邊也要提醒我們的葛如鈞召委，其實憲法裡面就有明定了，憲法第五十三條已經有明定行政權歸屬於行政機關。我們每個人都念過憲法，今天我們已經當了立法委員，就不要法盲，我們還是要回到行政立法的權力分際原則，尊重行政院最後的決定，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢，官員請回座。","接下來有請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,23-1","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳宗憲","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","柯志恩","李昆澤","林俊憲","陳素月","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","葉元之","蔡其昌","劉書彬","萬美玲","張雅琳","郭昱晴","何欣純","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","游顥","徐富癸","吳沛憶","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","范雲","林沛祥","邱若華","廖先翔","許宇甄","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；二、審查委員邱若華等 17 人擬具\n「人工智慧基本法草案」案；三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；四、\n審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工\n智慧基本法草案」案；六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；七、審查委\n員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案 （僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1144802_00004"}}},{"id":"161353","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161353","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b44a359c30acc8f18a35373469a84e2c332c61d2bb6e1b5d976aa520af6b9da4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:59:06 - 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9%的回收數字，絕對是我們很重要的民間力量，好不好？雖然拾荒者可能在大家眼中，有很多是大家不理解的，但我認為透過正面環境教育的案例，絕對可以讓更多人理解這件事情，那他們的貢獻也可以被臺灣社會看見。"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：曜哥，我沒有超時。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","請楊曜委員來詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林淑芬","王正旭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","陳培瑜","楊曜","盧縣一","蔡易餘","廖偉翔"],"page_start":369,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、勞動部及教育部就「我國推動綠色轉型政策，相關人才培育發展\n與產業政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟\n部、農業部及教育部就「全氟及多氟烷基物質(PFAS)管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化\n物相關管理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢【專題報告綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1145001_00015"}}},{"id":"161351","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161351","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b9a20d6afe7aeab83fe24093ee94bb68532c61d2bb6e1b5d99c42b40381f6ac9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:54:54 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狀況，中國透過東南亞國家洗產地的疑慮非常嚴重，尤其是美國針對東南亞4國進行長達一年的太陽能電池貿易調查結果也出爐了，裁定對東南亞4個國家大部分銷美的太陽能電池課予很高的關稅，尤其是柬埔寨的產品被課予超過3,500%的關稅，相當的嚴重。請教部長及相關的主管，我們感到非常的憂心，因為大陸透過對東南亞國家的扶植、透過洗產地的方式，目前他們的產品沒辦法銷售到美國，但是有可能就鎖定臺灣為銷售的目標，尤其是我們最近掌握到一個數據，太陽能模組的整體進口量一直呈現正成長，尤其是今年1、2月的進口量就佔了國內需求的五成，不曉得相關單位是否掌握到這樣的情資？"],["鄒副署長宇新：報告委員，經濟部與財政部成立了一個小組，專門監視太陽能模組相關的進出口狀況，剛才委員所提1、2月的狀況，我們確實也都持續的關注當中，如果有傾銷的情形，我們會請相關的公會按照傾銷的規定提出相關的申請。"],["徐委員富癸：副署長，我們的動作要加快，既然美國已經用這樣強力的手段來遏止洗產地的作法及疑慮，我們也不能置身事外，尤其是我們國內的太陽能需求一直都很大，經濟部或相關部會有沒有可能針對這樣的方式進行一個緊急防衛稅的措施？有沒有這樣的一個規劃？"],["鄒副署長宇新：緊急防衛稅還是要由業者提出，經濟部這邊會統籌評估，並與財政部一起合作處理。"],["徐委員富癸：這個部分是可行的？"],["鄒副署長宇新：如果有提出就可以啟動程序。"],["徐委員富癸：這個程序大概要多久的時間可以完成？"],["鄒副署長宇新：防衛的部分是針對全球，不是針對固定的國家。"],["徐委員富癸：對，但是我們……"],["鄒副署長宇新：針對特定的國家是用反傾銷。"],["徐委員富癸：目前我們知道的狀況大概就是中國大量傾銷的部分，甚至透過假外資的方式，譬如用東南亞國家來標我們的案子，尤其是我們的公家機關現在有很多屋頂的太陽能面板，所以我們的廠商都會透過無人機的系統觀測這個設施的狀況，甚至用這個方式來清洗面板，像我們一些軍事基地有沒有可能被他們透過這樣的方式進行情資蒐集？我們有沒有防範這樣的狀況？"],["鄒副署長宇新：每個機關在採購的時候都會有一些基本的要求，像軍事的部分應該都會排除一些非紅供應鏈的設備。"],["徐委員富癸：這個確實要查一下，因為我們就掌握到有一些假外資的狀況，大陸確實是有一些資金透過這樣的方式進來，他們的目的不是要做太陽能板，而是要蒐集我們一些軍事情報，這個狀況很嚴重，務必要注意一下。針對公有廳舍的部分，我們是不是有要求國產化的比例？針對這個部分有掌握狀況嗎？"],["鄭副組長如閔：不好意思，這個部分我們可能需要再進一步掌握狀況，如果有需要的話，我們事後再回報給委員。"],["徐委員富癸：這個應該也要注意一下，不能總是用一些中國大陸的產品，除了危害性很高之外，我們也要扶持國內的產業。","另外，我要請教部長，屏東的崁頂焚化爐從2000年開始運轉，到現在已經超過二十幾年，我也知道你一直很關心運轉能量，尤其是過去除了一些民生的垃圾之外，還處理很多的事業廢棄物，造成使用壽命、甚至營運狀況出現很大的問題，有沒有機會針對焚化爐的改善做出一個有效的替代方案或規劃的部分？"],["彭部長啓明：我請署長說明崁頂焚化爐的部分。"],["顏署長旭明：報告委員，焚化爐效能降低的時候，他們會引進民間資金進行改善，目前屏東也是準備這樣做。"],["徐委員富癸：就是因為常常故障、常常要修理，垃圾就會一直堆積，於是衍生出另一個枋寮掩埋場的問題啊！垃圾越堆越多，像最近夏天的氣候就發生了一起火災事件，這個部分是不是要一併檢討焚化爐及掩埋場的問題？"],["顏署長旭明：報告委員，他們整改的進度已經到最後了，目前正準備整改後啟爐，這樣就會慢慢消化掉。"],["徐委員富癸：確定嗎？"],["顏署長旭明：是的、是的。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，針對垃圾掩埋場的部分，你之前一直都在媒體上表示希望有一些不要是露天的狀況嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["徐委員富癸：針對屏東的部分，如何協助縣政府改善處理？"],["彭部長啓明：一樣，屏東也是一樣預計明年年底不會有露天裸露的垃圾。"],["徐委員富癸：小琉球也是一樣，我知道你有去過小琉球嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對，小琉球的狀況……"],["顏署長旭明：報告委員，我們是鼓勵小琉球的部分運回來；第二個是在那個地區做成倉儲式的方式，所謂的倉儲式就是不要露天，譬如有雨棚等等的將它遮住，所以在轉運的時候對環境的影響會比較小。"],["徐委員富癸：因為小琉球現在是一個很重要的觀光地區，我們也希望在環境的部分不要造成對觀光的衝擊，尤其在管理的部分也希望環境部能夠給予縣政府更多的支持力道，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：謝謝徐委員、謝謝部長。","接下來請羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","請陳培瑜委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林淑芬","王正旭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","陳培瑜","楊曜","盧縣一","蔡易餘","廖偉翔"],"page_start":369,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、勞動部及教育部就「我國推動綠色轉型政策，相關人才培育發展\n與產業政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟\n部、農業部及教育部就「全氟及多氟烷基物質(PFAS)管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化\n物相關管理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢【專題報告綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1145001_00015"}}},{"id":"161350","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161350","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b6fca0ac8b502fb2da35373469a84e2c332c61d2bb6e1b5d991b1f0c7435980ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"11:50:34 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本席在這邊是希望我們能夠來支持不要降關稅改降貨物稅的方式，因為臺灣機械業聯合會他們都希望這樣子做，才不會對我們國內的產業造成衝擊，尤其是現在貨物稅將近25%到30%，如果我們一起降的話，也等於是降了他們進口車的關稅，這樣子對於我們國內的國產車也是一種保護。所以我們希望兩位次長一定要往上建議，這樣子也可以讓我們整個國內的汽車發展有更大的空間，也可以減輕我們消費者的負擔，最重要的還是能夠顧及到我們產業的發展，這才是最重要的，好不好？"],["何次長晉滄：好。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝。"],["何次長晉滄：謝謝委員。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們現在請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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11:57:42","影片長度":"00:11:39","會議時間":"2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱若華等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n 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裝設施，還有1間主要的研發團隊中心，這個我們都知道，如果最後政府核准了，產業界都認為，台積電把上下游的產業都帶走以後，恐怕會造成臺灣產業的空洞化，主委認為有這個可能嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我認為不會，因為台積電至少有七成以上的製造廠都會留在臺灣，那三成是因為它的大客戶都在美國，所以它是因應美國市場的需求。"],["萬委員美玲：好，OK！那我們再來討論，我們看到AI崛起，晶片就越發重要，尤其我們臺灣身處地緣政治高風險地區，更是成為戰略物資，所以當初政府為了布局臺灣的科技產業，有關人才的培育我們也投資了非常多的精神跟預算，就是希望全球的研發人才都能夠來臺，並且最重要的就是「留臺」，因此國科會提出一個「晶創臺灣方案」，規劃在113年到122年的10年間，要挹注3,000億元在這裡。可是我們看到，其實台積電到美國設廠也是要外派一些高階的研究人才到當地，所以本席非常擔心，這會不會間接的導致；第一個，我們的科技人才外流和出走；第二個，我們看到之前2022年的時候，台積電到美國鳳凰城設廠，當時的經濟部王美花部長說：「我們外派了大概500名的工程師，合約3年」，按照這樣的推算，現在台積電要設6個廠區，那會不會有3,000位的工程師要到美國去？國科會有瞭解嗎？","最後，延續這一題，剛才說到這500名的工程師合約是3年，那現在他們會回來嗎？國科會有沒有掌握？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我們的人才不是外流，但是要交流，因為臺灣不能閉門造車。"],["萬委員美玲：交流？那請問一下，我們去500名的工程師，那他們是來……"],["吳主任委員誠文：他們到那邊也是跟當地的人才共同……"],["萬委員美玲：交流，那請問一下，之前2022年去的那500名工程師回來了嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：他們一定是輪調的，他們不會永遠待在那邊。"],["萬委員美玲：對，因為這500名的工程師3年的合約到期了嘛！你有掌握到他們回來了嗎？因為是交流嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：這部分是產業他們自己在主導的，政府不會干預，這裡面還有一些營業秘密在。"],["萬委員美玲：沒有，主委，本席跟你建議，你可能要瞭解一下，因為第一個，你剛才說我們的人才不是外流，是交流，這很好，但是要交流，他去了就要回來，現在他們要不要回來？當然，你說這不是你主管，可是你要知道，我們10年砸3,000億元在培養人才，如果人才出去後就不回來，那第一個，我們的錢白砸了；第二個，這不算交流嘛！所以這個部分我們可不可以掌握一下？不要最後我們投入了這麼多的財力跟人力，結果是幫美國的半導體產業作嫁。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們當然會協助我們的產業，不管是在地的人才培育及國際的人才培育，我們還會引進人才到臺灣來。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我想，主委這樣好不好？這個題目很重要，剛才我們提出來的問題，你事後去瞭解一下，並且針對如何避免我國科技人才外移或外流在3個月之內給我們一個具體的報告，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，是，沒問題。"],["萬委員美玲：好，OK！謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員的質詢，官員請回座。","接下來有請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,23-1","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳宗憲","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","柯志恩","李昆澤","林俊憲","陳素月","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","葉元之","蔡其昌","劉書彬","萬美玲","張雅琳","郭昱晴","何欣純","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","游顥","徐富癸","吳沛憶","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","范雲","林沛祥","邱若華","廖先翔","許宇甄","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；二、審查委員邱若華等 17 人擬具\n「人工智慧基本法草案」案；三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；四、\n審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工\n智慧基本法草案」案；六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；七、審查委\n員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案 （僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1144802_00004"}}},{"id":"161348","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161348","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b266b8ba4a685c146fe24093ee94bb685ab8e08a4c8c91792e3b48d9307feac045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:46:28 - 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Tahovecahe委員：（11時46分）謝謝主席，有請環境部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好。部長，今天安排的主題是綠色轉型人才培育，現在與你分享，去年8月我曾召開原鄉碳匯的公聽會；今年4月我也曾召開地熱公聽會；5月26日將辦理立法院氣候韌性與能源永續發展促進會的成立大會，藉著這個平台也邀請你，希望那天你能來給予大家鼓勵。"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：為什麼我要做這件事情？實際上，因為現在有許多的能源開發以及對於碳匯的需求，然而在我們原鄉有自然碳匯，所以很多人會來找我們的族人，但是族人並不清楚，他們會覺得現在詐騙猖獗，這些人會不會都是詐騙集團，甚至也有可能會變成是一個詐騙的溫床，因此，公部門的介入其實是很重要的，可以讓他們有安全感。在每次的公聽會中，我講的最重要的一件事就是我們不要在自己家的土地上做人家的故宮，這是很悲哀的一件事情，所以我們很希望的就是人才的培育。以自然碳匯來講，像是碳驗證及碳盤查等等，我覺得原住民都必須要參與其中，我們應該要成為別人合作的partner，針對這個部分，很高興環境部也有這樣的想法。113年11月22日環境部提到已經與原民會研商原住民族的綠領人才培育，所以我特別想要請問部長，研商的結果是如何？今年度有沒有什麼具體的計畫，與原民會一起來做綠領人才培育？"],["彭部長啓明：請我們的國環院院長說明。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["劉院長宗勇：報告委員，我們與原民會做過多次協商，基本上，我們本來期待可以用專班幫助原住民參加這樣的課程，不過，原民會因為受到今年預算凍結的影響，原規劃採取專班的補助方案在今年度有點困難，它表示期待明年可以做。至於今年度採取的方式，依據現有的經費可能是以指派人員到我們專班上課的方式處理，目前原民會給我們的模式是這樣。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：請問，這些上課的費用有沒有減免補助？"],["劉院長宗勇：原民會會處理這個部分。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以確定會有補助、會有減免？"],["劉院長宗勇：原民會……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：剛剛我都聽到了，中低收入戶也都可以，身心障礙也都可以，我們是氣候變遷下的受害者，公正轉型的對象，要不要減免？"],["周主任國鼎：針對派員來的原住民，原民會已經答應付全額的學費。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝，會全額補助。其實我一直都很關心，從之前溫管法要修正為氣遷法時，我就一再的講，原民會有沒有角色？那個時候是沒有的！我看了一下，112年到115年有一個國家氣候變遷調適行動計畫，在能力建構的部分有看到原民會的角色，但是回到能力建構的細項又看不到原民會，所以我覺得原民會其實是滿悲哀的，大家經常不知道要把它放在哪裡，可能也覺得不知道要他們做什麼事吧！但是沒有關係，今天我已經看到了。因為之前在預算提案時我就特別關心，也做了相關的預算提案，今天在你們提出的解凍報告中看到，114年5月會有一個「本部邀集各個部會，強化原住民族委員會角色」。請教一下，原民會在今年1月已經成立淨零永續發展小組，你們預計與他們對接要做哪些項目？"],["蔡署長玲儀：報告委員，目前這個禮拜國發會將先邀各個部會討論調適衝擊的領域，接下來我們也會接著這個會議邀原民會討論在調適領域的工作項目。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以還是要給他們工作任務啦！為什麼我會這樣關心？因為要有任務啊！像溫室氣體管理基金、溫管基金的管理委員有沒有原住民族代表？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，目前沒有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我看法規也沒有強迫要。"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒有強迫要。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是，部長，你認為要不要？"],["彭部長啓明：我認為，第一個，在我們未來決定的經費分配中一定要有原民參與的部分，這個我是同意的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，所以一定要有原民代表嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：目前我們會透過諮詢的方式去找，因為如何產生原民代表是一個滿大的工程，未來也希望委員給我們一些意見。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：一定要，因為我們都在談族群主流化，更何況原住民在這當中不僅僅是脆弱群體、公正轉型對象，我覺得我們可以更積極看待原民會的角色或原住民的角色。我們有生態智慧、有山林知識，甚至原住民對這些山林資源擁有固有主權，是他們的固有主權，因此，我覺得這個部分千萬不能沒有原住民代表，好嗎？部長？"],["彭部長啓明：好，我們來努力。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。我之所以關心要有原住民族代表擔任其中的委員，因為它會有碳費收入的支用，針對這個部分，部長，剛才你提到應該會規劃一些比例用在原住民族地區，對嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，至於項目如何訂定，目前我們開會討論的內容還不到那個程度。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：至少我們也因應了嘛！我們有修法的版本，過去沒有寫的，現在我們就把它修進來新增，像原住民族地區自然資源及生態多樣性之維護、教育宣導事項、原住民族地區溫室氣體減量產業之補助及獎勵事項，對於我們希望增加的項目，也許你們院版有更好的一些想法，所以我們也都樂觀其成。在這邊就是特別針對這個部分，希望可以提出訴求，無論是綠領人才的培育或是淨零碳排、溫室氣體管理的基金，希望我們的部會……因為我要告訴部長，我們的原轉會在賴清德總統上任之後就解散了，但他的意思是階段性任務完成，現在應該要回歸到整個部會、每一個部會，必須要在部會裡落實原住民族的轉型正義，因此希望能夠顧及到族群的主流化，與原民會淨零永續小組有一個密切的合作。針對這個部分，因為我們這邊常常會有人來問，接下來我們也會成立一個立法院的次團，所以希望在1週內可以到辦公室來說明，讓我能夠初步掌握一些資訊，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的發言、謝謝部長的答詢。","下一位何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","下一位鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","下一位林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","下一位請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林淑芬","王正旭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","陳培瑜","楊曜","盧縣一","蔡易餘","廖偉翔"],"page_start":369,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、勞動部及教育部就「我國推動綠色轉型政策，相關人才培育發展\n與產業政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟\n部、農業部及教育部就「全氟及多氟烷基物質(PFAS)管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化\n物相關管理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢【專題報告綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1145001_00015"}}},{"id":"161347","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161347","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b4fdd5502484b87e3a35373469a84e2c3ab8e08a4c8c91792956a68d7c4c8c8d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:39:17 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11:50:24","影片長度":"00:11:07","會議時間":"2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢衝擊強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案」案。\n四、本院委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。\n五、本院委員王美惠等17人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。\n（第一案如未獲議事處來函則不予審查，第二至第五案業經各黨團簽署不復議同意書。）（詢答）\n【5月14日及5月15日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-14","start_time":"2025-05-14T11:39:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-14T11:50:24+08:00","duration":667,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,20],"id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.0515937500000003,"end":6.392843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.30409375,"end":7.793468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.965968750000002,"end":11.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.87721875,"end":12.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.51846875,"end":65.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.97846875,"end":70.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.97346875000001,"end":84.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.55784375,"end":87.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.08471875000001,"end":93.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.19346875000001,"end":100.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.28534375000001,"end":101.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.04034375,"end":105.12846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.56721875000001,"end":107.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.71034375,"end":113.95409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.25784375,"end":115.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.23221875,"end":120.28221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.75471875000001,"end":128.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.97284375,"end":132.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.27596875,"end":133.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.15346875,"end":136.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.81971875000002,"end":143.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.37971875,"end":147.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.04159375,"end":154.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.43721875,"end":154.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.45409375,"end":155.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.47096875,"end":163.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.12034375000002,"end":158.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.68909375,"end":166.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.27909375000002,"end":196.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.46596875,"end":187.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.44346875000002,"end":199.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.04659375,"end":197.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.37971875000002,"end":204.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.84284375000001,"end":209.75346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.01159375,"end":205.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.75346875000002,"end":210.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.95159375,"end":210.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.96846875,"end":228.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.78846875000002,"end":232.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.58096875,"end":238.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.01471875000001,"end":240.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.27596875,"end":244.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.65096875,"end":245.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.64659375000002,"end":250.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.04659375000003,"end":256.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.69971875,"end":286.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.71659375,"end":256.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":272.41034375000004,"end":272.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.50096875,"end":325.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.11096875000004,"end":376.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.65159375,"end":348.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.94096875,"end":359.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.51409375000003,"end":365.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.04471875,"end":371.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.87471875,"end":394.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":379.02659375,"end":379.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.31346875,"end":379.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.20284375,"end":385.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.25346875,"end":385.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.42221875,"end":385.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.22659375,"end":398.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00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年的預算來源。"],["賴委員瑞隆：可以在哪些事情上面達到什麼樣的成效？"],["管主任委員碧玲：跟委員報告，我剛剛所講的是其中最主要的兩大部分，一個就是海空一體，我們要從水下一直到空中，這個力量一定要把它整備起來，海巡不可以持續下去說空中那麼弱，然後水下完全是一個白癡，我們沒辦法再等了！已經多久了！灰色地帶的衝突包括中國的科研船，中國一個「向陽紅10號」停在金門我們的外海，一停就是幾個月，我怎麼知道它停在那裡會在水下搞什麼！我不能再等了！"],["賴委員瑞隆：就是這幾年看起來中共是用灰色的，不管是透過他們的研究船或漁船等等，然後透過這種灰色是海警……"],["管主任委員碧玲：我們的壓力有多大……"],["賴委員瑞隆：各種灰色的方式，用這樣的方式來測試……"],["管主任委員碧玲：然後不給我們裝備……"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，然後給予我們的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：繼續讓我們就這個樣子，然後被侵擾的時候在那邊……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我覺得……"],["管主任委員碧玲：用我們的肉身在保護國家！"],["賴委員瑞隆：反倒是我們的海巡有更強能量的時候，可以用這樣的方式來做一個很好的……"],["管主任委員碧玲：委員，他們幾乎是用肉身在保衛我們的海疆，然後今天好不容易有這筆錢，我再說一次，我2月就想要了！2月的時候我就已經公開發新聞稿說，我希望能夠有國防安全的特別預算……"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，我請教……"],["管主任委員碧玲：絕對不要說我是因為什麼、什麼……"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，我完全能夠理解主委的急迫性，因為當海委會、海巡署有這麼多任務和對方用灰色來壓迫的時候，夜間的部分聽說我們現在是用肉眼去做辨識……"],["管主任委員碧玲：今天很多次長在這裡，剛剛就有一位次長跑來告訴我，他說當他知道我們夜間能量不夠的時候，他非常的詫異。我今天非常痛苦，我必須在這裡講出來，我非常的痛苦！我要跟全世界講說我的海巡在夜間是夜盲症，我非常的痛苦！委員，請原諒我，我讓我們署長來講好不好？"],["賴委員瑞隆：可以。請署長說明一下，現在我們到底遇到什麼樣的狀況，需要國家、人民給予海巡署更多的支持？"],["張副主任委員忠龍：在這邊特別跟委員報告，誠如剛剛我們主委特別提的，現在我們海巡署每天要面對的不只是中國大陸的灰色侵擾，同時還有我們本身的救生、救難和我們的海上執法，以及保護我們漁民的作業權利、驅趕越界的漁船。我們的任務不是只有面對中共的灰色侵擾，我們的任務這麼多元，但是我們現在的裝備是不夠的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，我們支持啦！但是聽說這樣的經費總數需要花到700億才完整，是不是？"],["管主任委員碧玲：是，我們總共……"],["賴委員瑞隆：以未來財劃法的狀況，恐怕這個經費難以……我們是不是應該努力去爭取一次把這個部分補足，給海巡弟兄更多的支持？"],["管主任委員碧玲：對，所以當今天我們有這個特別條例，至少可以保障讓我們從今年開始的3年趕快往前走，至少保障這3年，我們未來公務預算逐步再來補，或者是未來還是會有特別預算給我們用，這對我們來講是非常重要的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：也請主委不斷對外說明，好不好？讓大家知道這些錢的使用會比發現金的效益來得更大。"],["管主任委員碧玲：以今年來講，我這些都還來不及的時候，你看，我們造了多少大艦，我們修船就修了九十幾億，連修船的錢都是我來以後去爭取來的，我們今年增加53億都還沒有辦法買現在這些。那我今年增加53億，在立法院就一直被攻擊，明年新的財劃法下來，我錢在哪裡？剛剛講的追加預算有兩點，第一個，依法根本不可能編，這是假議題；第二個，4,100億發下去、普發現金以後，財源也沒了，追加預算的財源在哪裡？"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，我們希望爭取這一次啦！好不好？能夠順利得到朝野大家共同來支持。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我非常激動是因為這筆錢對我們來講是有急迫性、必要性的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：保衛國家的安全，保衛所有人民財產的安全，這是我們最優先的項目，也希望大家共同來努力，好不好？主委辛苦了。"],["管主任委員碧玲：剛剛說的救生救難，這裡面有一筆錢，還是要買生命探測器耶！我要救人民耶！我要買生命探測器的錢也在這裡面，七十幾億的裝備裡面，還有生命探測器的錢耶！這些錢不給我？"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，不斷地一起說明，一起來努力，好不好？好，謝謝主委，辛苦了。"],["主席：好，謝謝。現在作以下宣告：上午質詢到鍾佳濱委員後休息30分鐘。","現在請呂玉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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可能要小心，當有委員在垂詢你這個事情的時候，這絕對不是地方政府可以直接不聽中央的指揮調度，而且我們把那個法律訂得是非常非常必要性的，是授權給中央主管機關有這樣的權力及權限，相對的，補助還是在中央。我是提醒部長有這件事情，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["劉委員建國：好。第二件事情是剛剛特別提到，依據環境部頒布的「綠領人才就業趨勢報告」，我為什麼說綠領人才是未來臺灣的綠巨人？講這個就是來呼應部長的積極作為，2024年全臺有近3,600家的企業釋出綠領職缺，不少嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：平均每月需求高達2.2萬，這個人才缺口直追AI產業的2.9萬人，會不會超越？"],["彭部長啓明：我認為會。"],["劉委員建國：會，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：好，部長也認為。未來隨著法規的趨嚴與國際減碳壓力的升高，預估未來5年綠領職缺將有1到3倍的成長空間，AI未必有，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：所以我們絕對有機會超越。市場對於具備碳管理與減排知識的人才需求將持續攀升，因此環境部在3月成立所謂的淨零綠領人才培育聯盟，在北、中、南、東四區設立區域培育中心，結合國內28所大專院校，讓民眾就近可以接受綠領人才的培訓課程，沒有錯嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：你看部長及劉院長、大家笑得合不攏嘴！讓我們看到綠領人才未來的希望。同時在4月1日開放第一班的課程上網報名，名額40人、名額只有40人，開放16分鐘就額滿，跟搶演唱會的門票一模一樣，所以部長會講上這個課程就像買一張很好的、不會下跌的股票。這是部長說的。這麼夯的課程，我想應該所有委員都會支持部長去推，尤其這麼好的課程，也一定要照顧弱勢，因為窮不能窮到教育，部長應該可以認同嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：整個培訓課程有48小時，學費1萬2,000元，但是對於一般家庭，也是有一點點小小的壓力，所以環境部還針對青年學子、弱勢的提供了什麼？為鼓勵更多青年與弱勢族群參與，課程提供以下學費優惠方案：30歲以下大學、碩博士在學生，享有半額補助（6,000元）；低收入戶享有全額補助（1萬2,000元）。沒有錯嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：對，這要給部長特別肯定，但有低收入戶，為什麼沒有中低收入戶？這個就很難肯定，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：經費的關係。"],["劉院長宗勇：跟委員報告一下，因為經費的關係，所以今年……"],["劉委員建國：你們的經費因為被立法院刪掉，所以就要捨棄中低收入戶？"],["劉院長宗勇：因為經費上要籌措，所以當時就先以這樣的規模來定，但是一段時間會檢討，到時候看看經費額度，我們再做調整，大概會這樣子。"],["劉委員建國：對啦！但是有時候就有樣學樣，沒樣自己想就對了，而這是有樣可以看的，如果我們對比教育部的學校學雜費減免辦法第三條規定，低收入戶學生免除全部學雜費，中低收入戶學生還有減免學雜費60%，對嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["劉委員建國：那我們為什麼不能比照辦理？因為你上面有一個減6,000，這一個等於是減7,200，這個會很多嗎？有評估過嗎？如果都沒有，就說經費不夠，所以先低收入戶，中低收入戶就不要，那不是很奇怪？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們明年如果有碳費，有一些預算的話……"],["劉委員建國：我們不能等到明年，窮就不能窮教育，窮也不能做這樣的補助，又有這樣差別對待對象……"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：這個不屬於彭部長的個性，這個也不是很大的挑戰，如果這個經費讓你們覺得很少，反而是讓部長有挑戰，而部長應該可以挑戰成功啊！"],["劉院長宗勇：跟委員報告一下，我們現在可以再去籌措一些錢，再來調整這個補助的辦法。"],["劉委員建國：對啦！對啊！對啊！對啊！"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["劉院長宗勇：好。"],["劉委員建國：不只中低收入戶，還有身心障礙者，各位不要誤會，一般都會覺得是中低殘，但是中低收入戶不一定是殘，中低殘的朋友當然你更需要去照顧，只要你把中低收入戶放進去，這些全部照顧得到，但是對身心障礙者，部長，你的第一個對象是30歲以下大學、碩博士在學生，就可以享有，你知道身心障礙者其實在我們這樣的職場是非常非常困難的，你這個只是一個鼓勵，也不一定會很多人來報，我講真的，但是我們就把這個可以照顧的對象開闊一點，這個不為過，好不好？是不是可以思考一下，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，我來挑戰一下。"],["劉委員建國：好啦！你絕對禁得起挑戰，所以我們就要求一週內，窮不能窮教育，要針對這個課程減免的辦法重新再做一些研議、更正，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["劉委員建國：我接下來要講，你看你補助這些在學的大學生、碩博生，提高青年學子願意來上課的意願，4月1日第一班是秒殺的，部長可以看4月26日在國立臺灣師範大學首次上課的相關統計資料，平均年齡是37歲，社會人士是八成以上，具碩士以上學歷者達73%，學員職業有工程師、業務人員、行政助理、會計、總務、大學教師等，這個我們補助一半啊！"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，30歲以上就1萬2,000元，都1萬2,000元。"],["劉委員建國：對啦！我是寫平均37歲，30歲以下的補助一半嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。"],["劉委員建國：你不要「撿我的話尾」，馬上給我打回來……"],["彭部長啓明：不好意思、不好意思啦！"],["劉委員建國：我是不會像林委員這麼會記恨。","你看這個參與率就這麼高，所以我覺得是不是要對接勞發署？我剛才是用教育部來做比喻，現在勞發署有一個叫做產業人才投資計畫，補助參訓勞工80%或100%的訓練費用，每人3年內最高補助10萬，環境部這樣的計畫就應該跟勞動部好好對接，讓勞工在進修的時候可以使用這樣的補助計畫，可以吧！你們有坐下來說過嗎？有協商過嗎？有協調過嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有，洪部長有跟我約時間了，要來討論這個事情。"],["劉委員建國：有約，但是還約不到，所以還沒有討論？"],["彭部長啓明：有約好時間了，但是還沒開會，這個禮拜就會開會。"],["劉委員建國：就還沒有開，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：還沒有開。"],["劉委員建國：你們兩個很難約，我可以幫你們約，我也可以當電燈泡。但是底下的幕僚都還沒有作業嗎？不可能吧！"],["彭部長啓明：有討論了。"],["周主任國鼎：立法院一開完會，我們至少跟勞動部已經開會4次了、已經4次了。"],["劉委員建國：已經有4次了，所以到現在是議而不決，還是兩部之間的相關思維及行動都還有很大的落差？"],["周主任國鼎：還差細節的問題，主秘可能可以講的更清楚。"],["劉委員建國：請主秘簡單回應，因為時間超過了。"],["施主任秘書淑惠：跟委員說明一下，如果是在產投計畫，現在這32所學校裡面其實有17所學校是可以在我們的產投方案裡面去對接這樣子的補助資源，其他學校如果後續有開班，我們再來協助運用這個產投方案的計畫來補助。"],["劉委員建國：我請教兩位，一樣也要請問部長，如果這個計畫你們趕快去擬訂出來，讓失業的勞工在淨零綠領人才培訓課程認證之後進入到這個領域裡面，對整個失業有沒有幫助？"],["彭部長啓明：這當然幫助很大。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！好嘛！你看勞發署也有一點點經費，這個計畫如果你們研擬好之後，對整體也會有幫助，怎麼兩部的部長不趕快坐下來就定了？就趕快實施，可以吧！這個應該不太有挑戰，還是很有挑戰？還是誰要出比較多錢，還是怎麼樣？"],["施主任秘書淑惠：在我們的產投計畫中就可以支應這樣的經費。"],["劉委員建國：可以支應這樣的經費，對不對？"],["施主任秘書淑惠：就是細節的部分要如何介接這個……"],["劉委員建國：既然有錢，你們在細節方面還要談這麼久，而沒錢的還要去想辦法有錢，不對吧！1個星期內，可以吧？環境部與勞發署共同研議勞工進修及失業勞工的相關補助計畫，可以吧？"],["施主任秘書淑惠：可以。"],["彭部長啓明：1個禮拜。"],["施主任秘書淑惠：組長那邊也說可以。"],["劉委員建國：組長說可以，好。對不起，我這邊就修一下，第一，要求環境部及勞動部針對淨零綠領人才培訓課程於1週內重新研議相關的減免辦法，應該納入中低收入及身心障礙者。第二，1個月內環境部與勞動部勞發署共同研議，提出勞工進修及失業勞工的相關補助計畫，OK，謝謝。謝謝部長、謝謝署長，1個月已經改為1個星期，這樣才有挑戰，謝謝部長及主秘勇於接受挑戰，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，非常感謝我們最溫暖召委的發言，也謝謝部長這邊的答詢。","下一位林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員不在。","下一位葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。","下一位請伍麗華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林淑芬","王正旭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","陳培瑜","楊曜","盧縣一","蔡易餘","廖偉翔"],"page_start":369,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、勞動部及教育部就「我國推動綠色轉型政策，相關人才培育發展\n與產業政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟\n部、農業部及教育部就「全氟及多氟烷基物質(PFAS)管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化\n物相關管理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢【專題報告綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1145001_00015"}}},{"id":"161345","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161345","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b7d39073970d3be38ebe85dec65e1b640ab8e08a4c8c917928488c50c32e5baa75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"11:35:12 - 11:45:58","影片長度":"00:10:46","會議時間":"2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱若華等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n 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17 人擬具\n「人工智慧基本法草案」案；三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；四、\n審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工\n智慧基本法草案」案；六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；七、審查委\n員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案 （僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1144802_00004"}}},{"id":"161344","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161344","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b04620098a027324aebe85dec65e1b640ab8e08a4c8c91792472786d5621fa9625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:24:20 - 11:35:07","影片長度":"00:10:47","會議時間":"2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱若華等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n 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data，我們會把技術指引寫出來。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，所以次長就知道這個體系很大。這裡面其實還涉及到幾個面向，我們有提到，包括你們的資料，我也看到了，第一個是隱私，這是大家最care的；第二個就是存在著社會風險、存在著國家風險；其中其實你們也自己講到存在著倫理的風險。對於這個問題，我一直很想問一下兩位專家，我舉一個例子，譬如以無人車的駕駛來講，我們教會AI做各種判別，以至於以後不用司機，如果一臺大型的車子上面坐了20人，這臺車開在懸崖旁邊，突然有一個人衝出來，未來我們相關的法規，在這個問題上，到底是要把那個人撞下去，還是車子就直接往懸崖下面開？兩位可以給我這個答復嗎？我對於這個題目覺得很有趣啊，作為一個立法者而言，我要怎麼來思考這個倫理的問題？"],["葉次長寧：委員所提到的是哲學上面非常著名的電車難題。"],["蔡委員其昌：是。"],["葉次長寧：電車難題就是到底要救比較多人……"],["蔡委員其昌：對，你也懂了，我只是把它化成很簡單啦！"],["葉次長寧：就法律上面來看，不管是為了防衛自己，譬如司機本身他有生命要防衛，所以他迫不得已要採取一些比較可能會造成傷害的行為，那是正當防衛，是可以主張；或者是緊急避難，他為了他車上的乘客也好，採取一個比較安全的措施，在法律上面不會去苛責。基本上我們法律不會要求當事人在這個狀況下一定要做出選擇，不管是防衛自己的生命財產也好或保護其他人的生命財產，他在法律上面都是沒有責任的。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有錯，這是當事人嘛！那麼我們到底要怎麼教AI啊？我們就現實狀況來講，如果你是那個司機，你可能會因應當時的狀況選擇煞車、選擇方向盤往右邊懸崖的方向打，第三個是不選擇，直接撞。每一個人的狀態是不一樣的，但AI不會，當你教會它之後，它面對這種狀況可能只有一種選擇，到底這種選擇是我們要透過法律來告訴它，或者透過技術來告訴它就是直接撞了吧？"],["葉次長寧：我的理解是這樣，自駕車或是無人載具，委員所提的問題，大家不斷在考慮，現在當然可能只發展到Level 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因為Computex他們就會宣布了我們非常期待那但是因為國科會也有編列計畫啦我們就有看到說後續的延續計畫是科技計畫1.4億看起來是要讓各單位各機關可能也包括學界來申請然後是跟大語言模型可以應用的資料庫都可以來申請計畫對不對"},{"start":181.156,"end":195.434,"text":"國會都是希望學界跟產業界以民間的力量來執行相關的研究的工作那我請問一下速發部主委稍微再留一下 請問一下速發部"},{"start":199.04,"end":209.634,"text":"我們從文化部提供的資料裡面看到文化部說要配合速發部建構台灣主權AI訓練語料庫所以代表說速發部有這個"},{"start":211.175,"end":235.663,"text":"雨料庫的這個計畫嘛對不對對我們正在逐步啟動當中但是在你們報告裡面卻沒提到這非常奇怪理論上我們今天討論AI你們應該要主動提到啦這也不是什麼機密啦因為你們之前曾經也有在那個媒體有發布過相關訊息那為什麼報告裡面沒有是怕大家問還是怎麼樣那我想來問這個速發部你跟國科會申請經費應該是在國科會的1.4億的科技計畫裡面嘛主委應該是這樣吧"},{"start":240.578,"end":267.247,"text":"我們這個計畫我問主委你後來AI是有編列1.4億的科技計畫嗎讓各單位申請書發部是不是根據這個計畫申請了這個語料庫的資料是不是不是我們各部會申請的會不一樣不一樣我們編列的這個學界的研究是國科會在執行對那各部還會有其他那書發部好OK那書發部你們這個計畫要用多少錢"},{"start":270.018,"end":297.306,"text":"就是主權AI訓練語料庫中文語料這個資料庫的計畫要花多少錢我們現在向國科會的科發基金申請一個政府資料匯流跟主權AI部署的計畫那我們目前的這個希望的計畫金額大概是四千萬今年度申請四千萬那這個計畫主要要做什麼我們看一下好不好因為我有針對你們之前記者會新聞稿有來秀一下請那個是次長嗎"},{"start":298.266,"end":318.653,"text":"幫我們確認一下對不對啦你們是講說要建立這個資料庫是要鬆綁駐作權法免費提供一些訓練語料給我們的國內以外他是要給國內以外的大型語言模型讓大家來多使用台灣的訓練資料包括優先採用政府擁有駐作權的非機密文件等等如施政報告是這個嗎"},{"start":320.481,"end":345.19,"text":"是 但是鬆綁著作權法這個方法應該是說它詳細的內容是透過標準的授權的條款方便資料提供者跟資料需求者能夠快速的達成餘料的使用所以你今天要提供的是有著作權的相關資料除了沒有著作權 政府有很多當然也沒有著作權政府有些出版品是有著作權"},{"start":346.39,"end":361.803,"text":"對 然後希望能夠透過授權條款能夠解決AI訓練上可能會發生那其實這個您提到的一個業界現在很擔心的問題因為現在很多業界他們在訓練AI的時候常常就是會面臨到這個這個公開資料有沒有取得授權問題"},{"start":363.104,"end":385.664,"text":"有的資料是公開的但是沒有取得授權他不曉得能不能拿來做訓練國外也有面臨到這樣的狀況如果今天蘇巴部提供的當然都是有授權的很好可是他並沒有進一步解決我剛剛提出來業界的憂慮我不知道蘇巴部或國科會對於我剛剛所提到的這個問題就是資料授權條款的解決有沒有什麼構想"},{"start":387.096,"end":408.832,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們這個語料庫大概有兩個好處第一個從前如果要談授權要個別去談這是非常耗費時間成本的那有一個語料庫的話那上面都是合法授權的那當然就能夠這個快速的來訓練使用那另外一件事情當然就是所謂的這個授權條款過去要個別商議如果有一個"},{"start":409.652,"end":433.202,"text":"標準的或模範的範本的這個授權條款大家都適用狀況之下的話那這個註冊權商議個別這個談條件的這個問題也可以解決這個大概是我們跟各位台德的團隊在研商他們過去的這個收集資料過程中他們覺得最困擾的問題就他們要個別去談第二他還個別的授權條件可能還不一樣那我們從這方面來解決那怎麼解決現在想法是什麼"},{"start":435.863,"end":458.754,"text":"第一個它就是一個綜合式的語料庫集中式的語料庫你現在這個語料庫是有解決的但是我現在講說比如說產業個別他們要訓練他們的AI模型的時候就會面臨到有一些資料它是公開的資料但是因為也許沒有取得授權所以他們就面臨到說到底這個拿那個資料來做訓練會不會違法的問題那這個問題不解決其實是會影響到我們台灣AI的發展"},{"start":464.737,"end":489.069,"text":"蘇巴布你懂我的意思嗎我懂啊那現在問題是怎麼解決我現在不是講你這個語料庫怎樣我現在是從這個語料庫延伸出那個議題來跟你請教對我們為什麼要設語料庫就是不是供這個學術界使用是要供產業界使用的所以我們當然會希望這個語料庫能夠規模問題是你的語料庫一定有一些資料是不是產業界需要的嘛產業界有時候他需要的有些資料可能不在你的語料庫裡面嘛"},{"start":490.69,"end":508.001,"text":"那他拿一些資料來做訓練的時候他就會面臨我剛剛講的狀況嘛因為這個東西是公開但是沒有授權到底是可用不可用所以我是說除了速發部你自己建立你的語料庫之外你要去思考說企業在使用公開資料的這個免責的問題我不知道這個議題你們有沒有在討論啊我的問題是這個"},{"start":510.783,"end":522.365,"text":"是謝謝委員指教委員談到是另外一個問題就是產業資料的共享的問題那這個在本部開始研擬一個資料創新應用的條例那以歐盟情形來講會針對特定的領域設立Data Space譬如說它是汽車業它是這個農牧業它是這個環境業那在這個產業裡面建立他們是可以資料共享互換的一個機制"},{"start":537.188,"end":554.294,"text":"那這個會在我們的新的法律裡面你會有一個條例是不是因為我現在時間不夠啦可能也沒時間讓你詳細闡述可不可以給我一份資料你剛剛講的那個條例還有研究的方向好不好針對這個部分謝謝主委還有那個朱阿富我最後再問一個問題我請勞動部好不好"},{"start":558.472,"end":579.541,"text":"勞動部是關心說AI的發展可能會造成有一些勞工失業的問題我先問勞動部因為民進黨的立委很擔心放假多放個四天勞工就會說會被AI取代請問一下勞動部有這樣的顧慮嗎因為放假四天所以勞工就會擔心被AI取代勞動部會有這樣的顧慮嗎"},{"start":580.933,"end":597.812,"text":"包委員放四天假就會取代因為今天就委員的提案我們這邊勞動部有沒有這樣顧慮勞動部有立委提出這種高見你們當然要研究就是放了四天假勞工就會擔心被取代這種高見你們都沒研究"},{"start":598.833,"end":619.139,"text":"事實上會不會被AI取代?因為多放四天假,所以會不會?到底以後AI的應用會不會導致勞工失業?我知道,我現在是問說放,不要塔非所問啦我是說因為多放了四天假,員工就會害怕被AI取代有民進黨立委提出這種高見,你們勞動部有沒有?"},{"start":620.899,"end":625.242,"text":"有沒有去研究有沒有這樣的一個問題我們勞動部事實上對於這個AI的應用那會對勞工產生的衝擊我們勞動部持續有在做研究你們各方面的影響都要研究AI會研究放假會不會導致員工被AI取代這種你要研究因為這是你們執政黨的立委提出來的啊好啦沒關係啦我知道你不太想回答"},{"start":647.535,"end":663.544,"text":"那我就跟您請教因為我今天看你勞動部的報告裡面針對AI你剛提到的主題AI的發展對勞工的影響我覺得你寫得很空洞你的兩個重點第一個重點是你要去訓練大家懂AI這個我都沒有意見但第二件事情"},{"start":664.304,"end":688.341,"text":"你說恐造成勞工失業部分你們有設一個台灣就業通一個網站平台讓他們去找工作還有一個就是各地都有就業服務站你就講這兩件事這本來就有在做這本來就有在做的東西你並沒有針對AI的發展導致員工失業提出任何有建設性的文字我舉個例子來講好了"},{"start":689.702,"end":698.464,"text":"比如說你有沒有告訴大家說哪一些產業或哪一些工作會因為AI的發展導致失業報告裡面看不到啊"},{"start":699.828,"end":719.174,"text":"請問一下勞動部你們有研究過嗎哪一些產業或哪一些職缺會受到影響跟委員報告事實上這個產業的會對AI的部分所造成的影響我們勞動部事實上都有在做研究那都沒有寫報告都沒有那你現在簡單講有什麼簡單來講跟委員報告是說跟對勞動權益因為我們今天是針對委員版本的提案的條文"},{"start":726.796,"end":746.537,"text":"不是啦等一下今天在這邊雖然是針對版本給意見但你今天也是代表勞動部來嘛只要問相關AI跟勞工的你就應該要回答啊所以我現在就請教你嘛你們有研究如果有研究那目前勞動部盤點哪一些職缺或產業會因為AI發展受到影響哪一些嘛哪一些"},{"start":750.381,"end":760.984,"text":"我們認為說有產業的類別來講的話不管是哪一種產業類別我們都是依照哪一些啦你不要一直跟我繞圈圈你們到底有沒有盤點過你到底有沒有盤點過有一些產業的類那哪一些嘛"},{"start":768.928,"end":795.058,"text":"所以你根本沒有盤點過啊所以你講不出來啊那我現在直接告訴你啦哪一種職缺可能會受到影響做文書處理的嘛做資料收集的嘛舉例來講可能一個事務所他本來需要十個十個助理在處理文件他現在可能因為AI的應用他只需要三個啦因為他只要會用AI就取代了很多人工收集資料或寫報告的這樣的一個工作啊對所以"},{"start":795.698,"end":811.219,"text":"比如說本來需要10個職缺現在只需要3個那剩下7個那就變成職缺的消失了嘛那當然會影響到勞工啊那針對這些人你們提出了什麼輔導措施看不到嘛因為你現在提的都只是你要教大家用AI對啊"},{"start":812.12,"end":829.029,"text":"十個裡面你教會人家用AI然後但是會用AI啊會用AI它就造成其他人不需要職缺就消失了啊所以有很多人會因為這樣子可能沒有工作然後那你怎麼去輔導他們你說因為我有平台跟我有救福站這個等於是沒有解決問題啊"},{"start":830.51,"end":849.044,"text":"所以今天勞動部來這邊像你們民進黨委員連放假都要扯到勞工會被AI取代然後結果今天勞動部來針對這個影響都講不出半點有內容的東西我希望勞動部是不是可以針對我剛剛的問題今天也不為難你啦好不好提供一個報告給我們好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":414,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時10分）麻煩請國科會主委，謝謝。"],["主席：有請吳主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：主委好。現在大家在談AI的時候都會談到我們要有自己的主權AI，希望能夠有我們的大語言模型，之前我們有關心國科會的TAIDE計畫，當時TAIDE計畫是在112年編列2.3億來做這個事情，第二年也有持續編列8,000萬的預算，第一年的2.3億裡面大概有1.12億是購置硬體，我現在想要問國科會，這個TAIDE計畫、這個大語言模型還有要繼續發展嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在持續在發展，我們現在發展的重點……"],["葉委員元之：我是說針對模型本身。"],["吳主任委員誠文：模型本身，因為不能夠永遠是靠政府在發展模型，我們現在把相關的資源推動到我們的學界、產業界共同來發展各種不同應用需要的大語言模型，所以這個才是最根本的做法。"],["葉委員元之：所以意思是說，現在政府沒有要來做這個模型，是希望業界或學界延續來做？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，全世界都是學界跟產業界在發展，不是政府本身發展，所以我們只是做了一個試驗性的範例，現在……"],["葉委員元之：那你有信心透過這樣的方式，我們的主權AI是可以發展起來嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可以。"],["葉委員元之：可以？你有信心？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我有信心。跟委員報告，近期我們的產業界就會宣布會大力投資在我們的算力跟……"],["葉委員元之：產業界會投資？"],["吳主任委員誠文：產業界會投資。"],["葉委員元之：產業界是哪一些產業？哪一些企業？"],["吳主任委員誠文：他們宣布了，委員就會知道。"],["葉委員元之：大概要投資多少錢、金額？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個投資額會滿大的，但是……"],["葉委員元之：滿大是大概多少？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我不能幫他們講。"],["葉委員元之：講一個範圍嘛，讓大家有點信心，大概的範圍是多少？有超過幾千億嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：幾千億喔……"],["葉委員元之：或是多少？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個……"],["葉委員元之：差不多喔？我看你的表情好像覺得我猜對了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：大家期待、大家期待啦，因為COMPUTEX的時候他們就會宣布了。"],["葉委員元之：好、OK，我們非常期待。但是因為國科會也有編列計畫，我們有看到後續的延續計畫是1.4億的科技計畫，看起來是要讓各單位、各機關，可能也包括學界來申請，只要是大語言模型可以應用的資料庫都可以來申請計畫，對不對？你們的作法是這樣嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，國科會都是希望學界跟產業界以民間的力量來執行相關的研究工作。"],["葉委員元之：我請問一下數發部，主委稍微再留一下。請問一下數發部，我們從文化部提供的資料裡面看到，文化部說要配合數發部建構臺灣主權AI訓練語料庫，所以代表數發部有這個語料庫的計畫，對不對？"],["葉次長寧：對，我們正在逐步啟動當中。"],["葉委員元之：但是在你們的報告裡面卻沒提到，這非常奇怪，理論上我們今天討論AI，你們應該要主動提到，這也不是什麼機密，因為你們之前也曾經在媒體發布過相關訊息，為什麼報告裡面沒有？是怕大家問，還是怎麼樣？我想問數發部，你跟國科會申請經費應該是在國科會1.4億的科技計畫裡面，主委，應該是這樣嘛？"],["葉次長寧：我們這個計畫……"],["葉委員元之：我是問主委，主委，你後來AI是有編列1.4億的科技計畫讓各單位申請，數發部是不是根據這個計畫申請語料庫的資料，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是。"],["葉委員元之：不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們各部會申請的會不一樣。"],["葉委員元之：不一樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們編列的學界研究是國科會在執行，各部會還會有其他AI……"],["葉委員元之：好、OK。數發部，你們這個計畫要用多少錢？就是主權AI訓練語料庫、中文語料資料庫的計畫要花多少錢？"],["葉次長寧：我們現在向國科會的科發基金申請一個政府資料匯流跟主權AI部署的計畫，我們目前希望的計畫金額大概是4,000萬，今年度。"],["葉委員元之：申請4,000萬？"],["葉次長寧：對。"],["葉委員元之：這個計畫主要是要做什麼？我們看一下，好不好？我有針對你們之前記者會的新聞稿，請秀一下資料，請次長幫我們確認一下對不對。你們是講說建立這個資料庫是要鬆綁著作權法，免費提供訓練語料給我們國內外的大型語言模型，讓他們、讓大家多使用臺灣的訓練資料，包括優先採用政府擁有著作權的非機密文件等等，如施政報告，是這個嗎？"],["葉次長寧：是，但是鬆綁著作權法這個方法，應該是說詳細內容是透過標準的授權條款，方便資料提供者跟資料需求者能夠快速地達成語料的使用。"],["葉委員元之：所以你今天要提供的是有著作權的相關資料，是不是？"],["葉次長寧：除了沒有著作權，政府有很多當然也沒有著作權……"],["葉委員元之：政府的，我現在講的是……"],["葉次長寧：政府有些出版品是有著作權，希望透過授權條款能解決AI訓練上可能會發生的爭議。"],["葉委員元之：其實您提到一個業界現在很擔心的問題，因為現在很多業界他們在訓練AI的時候，常常會面臨到公開資料有沒有取得授權的問題，就是有的資料是公開的，但是沒有取得授權，他不曉得能不能拿來做訓練，國外也有面臨到這樣的狀況。如果今天數發部提供的當然都是有授權的是很好，可是並沒有進一步解決我剛剛提出來業界的憂慮，我不知道數發部或國科會對於我剛剛所提到的這個問題，就是資料授權條款的解決有沒有什麼構想？"],["葉次長寧：跟委員報告，我們這個語料庫大概有兩個好處：第一個，從前如果要談授權要個別去談，這是非常耗費時間成本的，有一個語料庫的話，上面都是合法授權的，那當然就能夠快速地訓練使用。另外一件事情當然就是所謂的授權條款過去要個別商議，如果有一個標準的或模範的、範本的授權條款，大家都適用的狀況之下，著作權商議個別談條件的問題也可以解決，這個大概是我們跟國科會TAIDE的團隊在研商過去蒐集資料的過程中覺得最困擾的問題，就是他們要個別去談；第二、個別的授權條件可能還不一樣，我們是從這方面來解決。"],["葉委員元之：那怎麼解決？現在的想法是什麼？"],["葉次長寧：第一個，它就是一個綜合式的語料庫、集中式的語料庫，在上面都……"],["葉委員元之：你現在這個語料庫是有解決的，但是我現在講的是，比如說產業個別要訓練他們的AI模型時，就會面臨到有一些資料是公開的資料，但是因為也許沒有取得授權，所以他們就面臨到拿那個資料來做訓練會不會違法的問題，這個問題不解決，其實是會影響到我們臺灣AI的發展，數發部，您懂我的意思嗎？"],["葉次長寧：是，我懂。"],["葉委員元之：那現在問題是怎麼解決？我現在不是講你這個語料庫怎麼樣，我現在是從這個語料庫延伸出那個議題來跟你請教。"],["葉次長寧：我們為什麼要設語料庫，就是不是光供學術界使用，是要供產業界使用，所以我們當然會希望這個語料庫規模能夠愈大……"],["葉委員元之：問題是你的語料庫一定有一些資料不是產業界需要的，有時候產業界需要的有些資料可能不在你的語料庫裡面，那他拿一些資料來做訓練的時候就會面臨我剛剛講的狀況，因為這個東西是公開的，但是沒有授權，到底是可用、不可用？"],["葉次長寧：我們現在主要針對……"],["葉委員元之：所以我是說，除了數發部自己建立你的語料庫之外，你要去思考企業在使用公開資料的免責問題，我不知道這個議題你們有沒有在討論，我的問題是這個。"],["葉次長寧：是，謝謝委員指教。委員談到的是另外一個問題，就是產業資料的共享問題，這個在本部開始研擬的資料創新應用條例裡面，以歐盟的情形來講，會針對特定的領域設立Data Space，譬如汽車業、農牧業、環境業，在這個產業裡面建立他們資料可以共享、互換的一個機制，在我們新的法律裡面會創造這個機制。"],["葉委員元之：會有一個條例，是不是？"],["葉次長寧：是。"],["葉委員元之：因為我現在時間不夠了，可能也沒時間讓你詳細闡述，可不可以給我一份資料，就你剛剛講的？"],["葉次長寧：那當然。"],["葉委員元之：那個條例，還有研究的方向，好不好？針對這個部分。"],["葉次長寧：好，沒問題。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝主委和數發部。我最後再問一個問題，請勞動部。勞動部關心AI的發展可能會造成有一些勞工失業的問題，我先問勞動部，因為民進黨立委很擔心多放個4天假，勞工就會說會被AI取代，請問一下勞動部有這樣的顧慮嗎？因為放假4天，所以勞工就會擔心被AI取代，勞動部會有這樣的顧慮嗎？"],["林專門委員佳世：報告委員……"],["葉委員元之：放4天假就被取代？"],["林專門委員佳世：因為今天就委員的提案，我們勞動部……"],["葉委員元之：不是，我是問勞動部有沒有這樣的顧慮？你是勞動部，有立委提出這種高見，你們當然要研究啊！就是放了4天假，勞工就會擔心被AI取代，這種高見你們都沒研究喔？"],["林專門委員佳世：事實上，會不會被AI取代是要看……"],["葉委員元之：因為多放4天假，所以被AI取代，會不會？"],["林專門委員佳世：要看產業的類別，就是說到底以後AI的應用會不會導致勞工失業……"],["葉委員元之：我知道，我現在是問放假，不要答非所問，我是說因為多放了4天假，員工就會害怕被AI取代，有民進黨立委提出這種高見，你們勞動部有沒有去研究有沒有這樣的一個問題？"],["林專門委員佳世：報告委員，對於AI的應用會對勞工產生的衝擊，我們勞動部持續有在做研究。"],["葉委員元之：各方面的影響你們都要研究。"],["林專門委員佳世：是，最常見的類別，比如說製造業、服務業……"],["葉委員元之：要研究放假會不會導致員工被AI取代，這種你也要研究，因為這是你們執政黨的立委提出來的啊！好啦，沒關係，沒關係，我知道你不太想回答，那我就跟你請教，因為我今天看勞動部的報告，針對AI，你剛剛提到的主題，AI的發展對勞工的影響，我覺得你寫得很空洞，你的兩個重點，第一個重點是要去訓練大家懂AI，這個我沒有意見。但第二件事情，你說恐造成勞工失業部分，你們有設一個臺灣就業通的網站、平臺讓他們去找工作，還有一個就是各地都有就業服務站，你就講這兩件事，但這本來就有在做啊！這本來就有在做的東西嘛！你並沒有針對AI的發展導致員工失業，提出任何有建設性的文字。我舉個例子來講好了，比如說，你有沒有告訴大家哪一些產業或哪一些工作會因為AI的發展導致失業？報告裡面看不到啊！請問一下勞動部，你們有研究過嗎？哪一些產業或哪一些職缺會受到影響？"],["林專門委員佳世：跟委員報告，產業會因為AI所造成的影響，我們勞動部事實上都有在做研究。"],["葉委員元之：對，但都沒有寫啊！這個報告都沒有，你現在簡單講有什麼？"],["林專門委員佳世：好，簡單來講，跟委員報告，對勞工權益，因為我們今天是針對委員版本的提案條文，條文裡面有針對勞工權益保障部分……"],["葉委員元之：不是，等一下，今天在這邊雖然是針對版本給意見，但你今天也是代表勞動部來嘛！"],["林專門委員佳世：是。"],["葉委員元之：只要是問到AI跟勞工相關的，你就應該要回答啊！所以我現在就請教你，你們如果有研究，目前勞動部盤點哪一些職缺或產業會因為AI發展受到影響？哪一些？"],["林專門委員佳世：我們認為從產業類別來講的話，不管是哪一種產業類別，我們都是依照……"],["葉委員元之：哪一些啦？"],["林專門委員佳世：我們會有一些職業訓練提供勞工……"],["葉委員元之：你不要一直跟我繞圈圈，你們到底有沒有盤點過？你到底有沒有盤點過？"],["林專門委員佳世：有一些產業類別的部分……"],["葉委員元之：哪一些嘛？"],["林專門委員佳世：是……"],["葉委員元之：所以你根本沒有盤點過啊！所以你講不出來啊！"],["林專門委員佳世：我們是有做過研究。"],["葉委員元之：我現在直接告訴你哪一種職缺可能會受到影響，做文書處理的、做資料蒐集的，舉例來講，一個事務所可能本來需要10個助理處理文件，現在可能因為AI的應用，它只需要3個了，因為只要會用AI，就可以取代很多人工蒐集資料或寫報告這樣的工作。"],["林專門委員佳世：對。"],["葉委員元之：比如本來需要10個職缺，現在只需要3個了，剩下7個就變成職缺消失了，那當然會影響到勞工啊！"],["林專門委員佳世：是。"],["葉委員元之：針對這些人，你們提出了什麼輔導措施？看不到嘛！因為你現在提的都只是要教大家用AI，對啊！10個裡面，你教會人家用AI，會用AI了就造成其他人不需要，職缺就消失了啊！所以有很多人會因為這樣子可能沒有工作，然後你怎麼去輔導他們？你說因為有平臺跟就服站，但這等於沒有解決問題啊！所以今天勞動部來這邊，像民進黨委員連放假都要扯到勞工會被AI取代，結果今天勞動部來，針對這個影響都講不出半點有內容的東西，我希望勞動部是不是可以針對我剛剛的問題，今天也不為難你啦！好不好？就提供一個報告給我們，好不好？"],["林專門委員佳世：是。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員質詢，官員請回座。","接下來請蔡其昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,23-1","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳宗憲","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","柯志恩","李昆澤","林俊憲","陳素月","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","葉元之","蔡其昌","劉書彬","萬美玲","張雅琳","郭昱晴","何欣純","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","游顥","徐富癸","吳沛憶","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","范雲","林沛祥","邱若華","廖先翔","許宇甄","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；二、審查委員邱若華等 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在用國軍問題會非常非常嚴重。如果發生狀況的時候，因為海鯤號現在不在海軍的編制裡面，包括這些官兵的薪水、海上勤務、個人狀況，我們剛剛提到最嚴重的，如果是撫卹，會是一個很大的問題。"],["顧部長立雄：因為我的了解是，不管潛艦也好，或水面艦也好，如果都是自主委製案，應該在做相關測試的時候，除了有他們本身的專案編組之外，也有我們接艦的官兵。"],["馬委員文君：海軍會有人，可是不是所有操作的人員，這是有差別的。"],["顧部長立雄：是如此啊！"],["馬委員文君：不是，現在您去了解看看，因為現在還不是屬於海軍的，國軍弟兄如果拒絕，他不要去可不可以？因為它還不是海軍編制內的，他如果不要去，可不可以？"],["顧部長立雄：在編制內了。"],["馬委員文君：沒有！他還沒有交給我們，沒有在編制內。參謀長很清楚吧？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：我們有接艦的資源編制。"],["馬委員文君：接艦的資源編制跟現在海軍編制的正式軍人，這是不一樣的。如果像這樣，所有的操作全部都由國軍官兵上船去操作，這是有問題的，我現在提出來，希望部長還有參謀長去思考一下。重複我剛剛的問題，如果官兵不願意去，可不可以？部長，你要回答嗎？"],["主席：部長，這個等會後再提供資料。"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們都在專案編組之內。"],["馬委員文君：沒有。部長，他還沒有交艦，它就沒有在我們的編制內。請參謀長跟部長說明清楚。"],["顧部長立雄：在我們專案的編制內。"],["馬委員文君：專案的編制內沒有海軍，它的是潛艦小組，你要上去操作包括輪機、所有裝備，跟這個是不一樣的，這部分請審慎的去評估跟考量，而且不要任意犧牲我們受過這些訓練的官兵。我知道部長這一次停下來，是因為你有考量到安全性，所以我們今天才會特別提醒這個部分，我相信這也是部長心裡最重視的，怎麼樣做應該找一個比較周全的方式，或者台船應該自己去培養這樣的人，因為他已經接我們第一艘，後面還有七艘，沒有理由是由官兵去測試，而且它是有風險的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員。","接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢。黃仁、黃仁、黃仁委員不在。","接下來請羅明才委員上台質詢。羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","接下來請蔡易餘委員上台質詢。蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員上台質詢。鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來請葉元之委員上台質詢。葉元之、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","已登記質詢的委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束；本日會議有黃仁委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，並刊登公報；委員書面及口頭質詢未及答復的部分，或要求補充資料者，再請相關機關以書面答復，另有約定期限者從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":40,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-13","speakers":["沈伯洋","陳俊宇","徐巧芯","羅美玲","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王定宇","林憶君","王鴻薇","黃國昌","陳永康","馬文君","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，國防部主管預算凍結案等54案","agenda_id":"1144901_00001"}}},{"id":"161340","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161340","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b60dc97ace1bb5867fe24093ee94bb685ab8e08a4c8c9179243ba2ecc2b3ce5ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:05:31 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天是等於是做球給你我不敢不敢因為我記得我5月21號來委員質詢我這個花了半個小時那完了之後我就很努力的跟我同仁在談那我們也努力想要做出一些成績"},{"start":53.451,"end":76.084,"text":"做出成績是最重要我們質詢的目的不是為了上報 列為紀錄質詢的目的是為了改變 是那在這裡我必須要肯定你的改變譬如說在今年的5月13號你們公告修正了列管毒性化學物質及運作管理事項公告抱歉我是不是看錯了沒有 沒錯"},{"start":80.585,"end":92.698,"text":"Anyway 就是說把擴大更多的列管進去然後在飲用水上面呢你們也訂出了水污染防治措施及檢測申報管理辦法在排放水的時候要監測"},{"start":97.083,"end":101.686,"text":"然後在廢水的部分有監測在飲用水上面也有一些本來就有的納管然後再做更多的監測在環境監測上面你們去年年底就已經完成了國內15條河流底泥和雨體的你的採樣分析然後完成了淨水場的檢測然後掌握了這個"},{"start":117.901,"end":133.521,"text":"土壤和地下水PFAS的濃度的趨勢這個都是我當初要求的但是呢 我的意思是說我們要的就是說具體的改變在那裡不要像食藥署 食藥署今天報告在哪裡食藥署 署長又不能夠來"},{"start":137.159,"end":157.665,"text":"署長你講這個笑死人了 你聽聽看你自己怎麼聽下去人家質詢完是要你做改變 然後你的法規要改 要納管然後你今天有委員質詢你說 欸你訂出標準了嗎你的食品容器訂出標準了嗎 你說我繼續研議"},{"start":159.065,"end":175.862,"text":"口頭上你這樣講然後你的書面報告說什麼各環境部公告禁用的百項的PFAS物質本部會宣導會宣導食品包裝容器的這個容具的業者不得使用宣導"},{"start":179.475,"end":191.259,"text":"報告委員 這邊喔 環境部公告508項不能用其實就是禁止使用我們在按照食安法使用的話我們會按照財閥物的部分是你的部分我也質詢過啦就衛福部我們也質詢過"},{"start":195.581,"end":214.652,"text":"食品包裝包材禁止使用PFAS的期程規劃在哪裡PFAS的食品風險評估在哪裡在食品的監測計畫裡面食品受到這些污染或是因為包裝包材受到污染那你的監測計畫是什麼"},{"start":217.23,"end":225.559,"text":"你不可以說PFAS是我的專業我會全力以赴然後你到立法院來我諮詢過囉你們業務單位都知道喔到立法院來說我們會宣導你到這裡來只有剩下宣導一種功能喔"},{"start":233.171,"end":238.654,"text":"你的政府做到最後只叫做宣導你覺得這什麼政府 這什麼食藥署署長你的專業 你的專業又如何當你的專業不能成為政策不能成為法規 不做任何的改革你的專業不好 不好署長 你的專業是要來服務人民"},{"start":255.396,"end":280.798,"text":"現在是在這裡我有同樣的諮詢過兩個部門諮詢完人家部長他們該改的法規該納管的物質該訂的期程該做的監測人家在報告裡面寫我幾年幾月幾日我做了什麼我改了什麼法規你今天你實要屬你的報告書面報告在這裡你只說了一句本部會繼續宣導"},{"start":283.24,"end":312.412,"text":"宣導其他講的都是廢話這立委也會講的廢話這個叫政府喔謝委員我們508項因為昨天環境部這邊特別有公告357項所有的508項在食物包裁的部分我們全面禁止使用如果使用就是違反食安法的第16條我們現在要問你你們食品包裁禁止使用你公告在哪裡"},{"start":315.061,"end":321.463,"text":"毒性化學物質以外那現在已經在使用的在怎麼樣你有去抽測有去檢測有去監測那些業者都知道嗎我們便當盒你有抽測過他們是不是還在用你知道嗎每天買的早餐炸薯條炸薯餅當初我們質詢的時候就跟你講連大的麥當勞連其他的通通都不標準都還繼續在用你說你禁用他們還繼續在用"},{"start":344.433,"end":365.107,"text":"謝謝委員這邊的提醒我們其實今年度我們特別針對食品跟食品器材的包裝容器的部分我們做了PFOS的相關調查那涉事風險評估我們一定會調查盡速的把這項我現在要問你你什麼時候告訴我們說你公告禁止使用公告在哪裡你把幾年幾月幾日公告什麼法規你唸給我聽一下"},{"start":367.917,"end":387.39,"text":"這邊跟委員報告我們就帶回去我們積極的研議啊 謝謝還在研議喔一定會積極辦理研議你沒有公告全部禁止使用啦在這裡還可以直接睜眼瞎說然後有公告禁止使用的有沒有用不知道啦"},{"start":389.484,"end":404.483,"text":"環境污染 間接進入身體食品包材 包裝 直接吃下肚哪個比較嚴重當然是衛福部 當然是食藥署管理的是重中之重而委員 我 至少我本人也質詢過"},{"start":406.636,"end":413.202,"text":"沒好啊 質詢過又如何 沒好所以今天在這裡檢驗一個行政部門我是拿環境部來給你看人家的書面報告是怎麼寫你的書面報告是怎麼寫一看就知道不當一回事好 謝謝 署長請回我現在要再問 再問部長另外一個問題合一合二合三"},{"start":431.576,"end":444.714,"text":"部長你今天有接受採訪合一合二合三昨天修法了要重啟可以重啟重啟要不要做環評我再給你一個回答的機會"},{"start":446.945,"end":467.906,"text":"因為過去其實按照環評法的開發行為實施環境影響評估的細目跟認定標準29條第一項所以目前來說的話如果是新建添加機組工程或是核子反應設施的廚藝要環評但是目前的這個規定的話既有的核能電廠運轉執照換發或展延它其實是不需要的"},{"start":470.816,"end":487.067,"text":"你不知道既有執照到期換發或轉延這個在最高行政法院判決過這個當然是需要這個不是就權力的延伸因為他這一張執照就是40年40年以後你還要再繼續給他這個叫新權力的賦予"},{"start":500.583,"end":520.509,"text":"新權力的賦予當然要重啟還平更何況他過去40年一次都沒有做過所以你現在應該要做什麼你知道嗎如果根據最高行政法院的判決你應該要把重啟"},{"start":522.761,"end":527.864,"text":"納入到開發行為應實施環境影響評估的細目及範圍的認定標準為什麼當初沒有做因為做夢也沒有想到有人會拿核電廠老舊不堪的核電廠還來開玩笑說可以重啟大家都做夢都沒想過你知道國際在評估一個核電廠"},{"start":549.978,"end":563.606,"text":"他的風險評估他用的是U型理論他最容易發生核災就是在剛開始的U的剛開始還有使用期限的後半段的最後最後中間運轉的中間是最穩定的所以不管山泥島福島車諾堡就是這個理論最危險的"},{"start":573.868,"end":603.055,"text":"而今天不是什麼抽完零件更新不是什麼保養就可以解決很多是沒有辦法再更新的而他們要開玩笑也沒關係他們要拿核災來開玩笑但你你不可以在這裡隨便說不用還平憑什麼說不用還平他的執照40年他的權利已經到齊了40年沒有做過任何還平"},{"start":604.531,"end":619.483,"text":"現在大家都以為要除役了他說要重啟重啟 我現在再跟你溝通一個概念再講一遍這個是新權力的賦予絕對不是舊權力的延伸"},{"start":622.037,"end":645.692,"text":"這樣你聽得懂嗎?聽得懂在法理上是這樣子?對其實過去這一年我也跟我同仁探討這個問題我也的確覺得是蠻奇怪的因為以前沒有還平那如果重啟要還平既然是按照現有還平法規不用還平所以委員這個部分我想我回去之後再跟我同仁或是找一些律師專業的朋友這個爭執啊在我們修礦業法的時候就談過"},{"start":650.174,"end":671.817,"text":"修跨越法的時候就說我國家特許權給你20年20年重新審核你的之後到底是就權力直接延伸繼續核定只能允許只能繼續給你繼續延長還是說這是一個新權力的賦予我可以準博通通都可以不是只有准許一個選項"},{"start":673.778,"end":689.568,"text":"後來後來就是這樣子明定在新修的礦業法裡面這個在法理上的論辯很久絕對不是第一次所以我才告訴你是最高行政法院的判決就是這樣子寫了"},{"start":692.028,"end":702.359,"text":"所以你們內部的人如果告訴你說這個是依法無據的免還品的那我要告訴你這是胡說八道的好 謝謝我會來進行這個探討研究給我一點時間"},{"start":706.806,"end":727.583,"text":"我希望你今天的採訪回去應該要再想一下是不是應該重新再思考一下絕對不是就權力的延伸所以新權力的賦予所有一切都要重跑一遍如果要重啟的話那一定肯定是要還平的沒有那種不用還平的好 謝謝委員 謝謝這樣子幾分了"},{"start":733.769,"end":746.52,"text":"因為我的質詢都還沒有開始因為我今天的質詢都還沒有開始他說我超過了那我下一次再來好了"},{"start":752.381,"end":770.855,"text":"因為剛才那兩個問題很重要雖然不是我今天本來要質詢的目標因為今天的題目我已經都講過了問過了那部長也做了一些改進了也做了一些改革了所以我就提一下但是這個環評的事情核電廠老舊核電廠要重啟絕對需要環評好 謝謝委員 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二配置的方向二配置的方向的這種方式呢其實老實講啊"},{"start":152.768,"end":170.799,"text":"顧強不顧弱啦就相對優勢的部分你去強化它譬如講你本身產業的優勢之所以能夠出口它就是本身在農業品項當中相對是比較優勢的不論是毛豆的 蘭花等等嘛就你補助它可是相對弱勢的部分卻沒有看到耶部長"},{"start":171.639,"end":182.563,"text":"其實我跟委員報告齁您剛剛講的那個總額從原來的20到變成4%齁那最主要是母數的差異齁那之前只處理因應關稅的部分是881億裡面我們181億大概20%左右那後來變成4是因為"},{"start":187.265,"end":208.955,"text":"在整個特別預算裡面的一些內容有增加特別增加國土安全韌性的部分所以總而變成4100億但是以農業部來講我們還是以180億為主因為現在目前關稅的不確定性還在那邊我們現在在估計的話都是以10%的關稅為主第一點那第二點就是說我們現在目前因應關稅的部分其實"},{"start":209.995,"end":237.837,"text":"比較急迫的是我們要減輕我們農民的一個資金的一個需求壓力所以我們在金融支持跟後面的因應關稅我們希望它能夠持續去進去那個市場而不是去撤退不過委員講的一個很重要就是弱勢的這些產業齁其實我們在整個產業支持裡面我們特別強調跟產業有關的直接跟間接的影響"},{"start":238.638,"end":265.098,"text":"那那些後面我想我們會來處理部長我坐在的為什麼提這個東西我認為不對焦的原因你看去關稅之後第一個問題我面臨的就是一個開放市場問題即便我們對美的農業貿易的部分是屬於逆差了28億的這個部分但是他很清楚的點明了一部分也就是說我們要如何去開放開放市場還有排除這個貿易障礙的部分簡單的講我舉一個例子就是當初"},{"start":268.14,"end":282.521,"text":"在三月底的時候他就提到稻米基改食品肉品馬鈴薯的這個部分那以美日之間的談判稻米是關鍵以美韓之間的討論的部分貿易食品的限制的解除是關鍵"},{"start":283.84,"end":303.499,"text":"那央行的部分也提過要買能源軍購還有農產品按照目前的部分如果頭期首號擴大這個採購的部分可能是傷害最少的部分黃豆玉米三成七進口的部分小麥的部分佔七成九也就是這個部分我們還有沒有可能擴大採購的空間不長"},{"start":305.521,"end":328.51,"text":"我想第一個部分就是在黃小玉的部分其實我們還有擴大採購的空間大約多少那基本上從原來的12大概是黃小玉大概是12應該是9.4億左右那未來可能會擴增到12億左右因為我們的本身的飼料的品質美國會比較好所以我們會有增加的這個部分好這個部分有一些空間那我再問你"},{"start":330.171,"end":341.336,"text":"除了這個擴大的部分的部分是可以我們釋放出來但另外一個部分是我們防守的我們防守的部分舉稻米為例現在WTO下的稻米的總額的進口配額大概144,720噸大概接近滿額的情況底下將來如果稻米視為一個關鍵的地方就兩個重點"},{"start":352.361,"end":368.86,"text":"一個 你這個進口配額的部分你有沒有可能拉高 這第一第二個部分 最近的部分有沒有可能下降 這第二個我覺得這兩個是關鍵啦那我提的這兩個不是我的主張我是說 你有沒有辦法防守有沒有可能讓步這兩個是不是堅決不讓步的地方 請說"},{"start":369.813,"end":394.8,"text":"我想針對稻米因為稻米本身種到的農民大概有將近30萬本將近22萬到30萬之間所以我第一個部分不管是配額的量的部分第二個就是配額外的關稅的部分以農業部的立場我們不會讓步不會讓步好非常清楚因為其實那個就成本來說差額實在太大了這個剛剛表列當中都有還有一個肌肉的部分"},{"start":395.78,"end":414.692,"text":"你進口雞肉部分,美國進來的雞肉,我其實講好了,大概占50%啦他們不吃,只要沒有偏好雞腿啦那這個部分呢,有一個很現實的狀況這個關稅的部分,你有沒有可能有讓步的可能性那這兩個加總起來,夯不啷噹喔總共的產值是高達一千億歐"},{"start":417.302,"end":443.312,"text":"你這個還是要透過貸款或者是這個外銷可以營業嗎?可以解決他的問題嗎?部長我跟委員報告包括您剛才講的稻米還有我們現在的雞肉那雞肉我們的國產的自由率大概68%但是他影響的是全部產業從北到南都有所以以農業部的立場我們以糧食安全的確保是最重要的以確保農民的權益是更重要的"},{"start":443.792,"end":465.412,"text":"所以在這兩個部分我想我們都會我們會捍衛我們原來的一個配額跟關稅因為這個成本實在差非常多國產的道米是50然後美國的這個成本大概30然後另外一個這個部分肌肉的部分大概100然後美國的部分大概68所以這種情況底下對本土的這個產業當然會造成很大的衝擊當然要堅守立場"},{"start":467.153,"end":478.398,"text":"那另外一個部分當然就是解除限制的部分一直被對方挑毛病的部分就是馬鈴薯發芽限制的部分跟基改的這個部分這個部分有談判的空間嗎"},{"start":479.485,"end":498.517,"text":"我想馬鈴薯的部分是有的因為馬鈴薯本身我們原來是直接退運那其實我們有提供他一個可以篩選的機會我們的條件還在那邊但是我們提供他篩選的部分所以這是將來我們的談判籌碼之一馬鈴薯發芽的部分他因為可能"},{"start":498.897,"end":509.713,"text":"構成所謂食品安全的問題用一些科學的數字來可以做談判的討論的空間嘛這是可能性之一嘛所以限制的部分才是談判的重點啦那基改的部分呢"},{"start":510.438,"end":530.186,"text":"我想基改的部分應該是在衛福部的主管以農業部來講我們是飼料那現在的飼料大概都是基改的玉米跟基改的黃豆的飼料為主但是本席還是要跟你強調就你前面的配置的部分老實講都是比較偏重於相對強勢的一個項目當中弱勢的部分請部長要予以特別的"},{"start":536.969,"end":559.73,"text":"因應跟關注啦或許你底牌還沒有想要先出來但是還有一個部分是針對人的部分有時候農民個人任性的部分也是非常關鍵第一個我必須講說相關的衝擊對整個農業家庭來說相關的衝擊我是覺得這個要去面對第一個我們老農津貼的部分的排布條款在2023年本席就已經提出來了"},{"start":560.99,"end":586.238,"text":"遲遲都沒有回應 我本人也跟你提過好幾次至於相隔14年之久 不符時宜該條要條 這是第一第二 農保的覆蓋率也是偏低這個部分也非常清楚也就是說對個人的這個任性的加強的部分也請這個農業部門針對於農民的相關的社會安全保障以及相關的一個福利的網絡能夠做一個慎重跟檢討"},{"start":588.028,"end":608.349,"text":"好 謝謝委員我想老農經驗的排布條款其實農業部有已經把相關我們的建議有提到行政院去那行政院也召開了相關的 政委召開了相關的會議現在就等待其他的八大社福的一致性啦那如果有一致性的共識的時候我相信就會儘快的來提出修改"},{"start":608.769,"end":620.485,"text":"還有其他的相關的這個保險的部分請部長一併去思考這個時候確實是要重新檢討竅話的時刻了好不好好 我想我們會努力來做好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":864,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（11時6分）謝謝主席，主席，我有請經濟部的何次，還有我們農業部的陳部長。"],["主席：請何次長、陳部長。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：次長好。剛剛有委員提到要發現金的時候，舉日本為例子，日本石破茂首相曾經確實提過要發三萬到五萬的日幣，但是後來高達57%的民眾反對，因此目前已經擱置了，我讓你知道一下，在法案審查的過程當中，要明確的理解國際常識。好，你先請回。","接著請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長，就教您，在這次關稅的衝擊加進口壓力的情況下，農業部可說是重中之重，卓院長那時候就提到，對美的談判要以BTA為目標，其中農業談判是重點，即便在拜登政府的時候，臺美21世紀的貿易協議當中，農業也視為深水區。那問題就來了，剛開始我們提出880億的時候，農業部門所配置的金額是180億，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員國文：到了4,100億的時候，農業部門還是一樣180億，那就奇怪啦，既然是重中之重，為什麼比重從20%降為4%，這是我第一個要就教於你的總額配置的問題，很顯然不符比例嘛，這是第一個。第二個就內容配置的部分，我詳細看了一下，貴部所提出來的內容是農業貸款加碼補助、強化冷鏈系統、擴大海外行銷，這不是經常性的年度計畫內容嗎？為什麼把經常性的年度計畫內容拿來應對比較突發性、類似暫時性的關稅衝擊，老實講我很難理解。能不能請部長就這兩個部分：一、總額的比例，二、配置的方向加以說明？","第二個這種方向的配置，老實講是顧強不顧弱，就是你去強化相對優勢的部分，譬如能夠出口的項目本來就具有產業優勢，它本身在農業品項當中相對是比較優勢的，不論是毛豆、蘭花等等，結果你補助他；可是相對弱勢的部分卻沒有看到政府的作為，請部長說明。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，您剛剛講的總額由原來的20%變成4%，最主要是母數的差異。之前只處理因應關稅的部分，880億裡面我們占180億，大概20%左右，後來變成4%是因為整個特別預算裡面的內容，有特別增加國土安全韌性的部分，所以總額變成4,100億。但就農業部來講還是以180億為主，因為目前尚有關稅的不確定性因素，現在做估計的話都是以10%的關稅為主，這是第一點。第二點是目前因應關稅比較急迫的部分其實是減輕農民的資金需求壓力。"],["郭委員國文：對，還要提到貸款。"],["陳部長駿季：所以關於金融支持和之後因應關稅部分，我們希望能夠持續進入市場而不是撤退。另外委員所講很重要的一個部分是關於弱勢產業，其實我們在整個產業支持面特別強調與產業有關的直接跟間接影響，這部分之後會來處理。"],["郭委員國文：部長，說實在的為什麼我認為你提這個東西會有不對焦的原因？關稅之後我們面臨的第一個問題就是開放市場的問題……"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員國文：即便我們對美的農業貿易是屬於逆差28億，但他很清楚的點明了一部分，就是我們要如何去開放市場還有排除貿易障礙。簡單的講，我舉一個例子，當初在3月底時他提到稻米、基改食品、肉品和馬鈴薯的部分。美日之間的談判關鍵是稻米，美韓之間討論的關鍵部分是貿易食品限制的解除，央行提過要買能源、軍購和農產品。依目前的情況如果投其所好擴大這部分的採購，可能會是傷害最少。黃豆、玉米占三成七，小麥占七成九，請問部長，這個部分還有沒有擴大採購的空間？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個部分，黃小玉其實還有擴大採購的空間。"],["郭委員國文：黃小玉大約多少？"],["陳部長駿季：黃小玉應該是9.4億左右，未來可能會擴增到12億左右。因為飼料的品質美國會比較好，所以會有增加的部分。"],["郭委員國文：這個部分有一些空間。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員國文：我再問你，除了這個擴大的部分是我們可以釋放出來的，但另外一個部分是我們用於防守的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員國文：我們防守的部分舉稻米為例，現在WTO下的稻米總額進口配額是14萬4,720噸，大概接近滿額的情況，將來如果視稻米為關鍵之處，有兩個重點，第一個是進口配額有沒有可能提高？第二個是稅金有沒有可能下降？我覺得這兩個是關鍵，但這兩個不是我的主張，我是說你有沒有辦法防守？有沒有可能讓步？這兩個是不是堅決不讓步？請說明。"],["陳部長駿季：針對稻米的部分，因為種稻的農民大概將近22萬到30萬之間……"],["郭委員國文：這有兩個問題。"],["陳部長駿季：所以不管是第一個部分的配額量或是第二個部分配額外的關稅，以農業部的立場，我們不會讓步。"],["郭委員國文：不會讓步！好！非常清楚。因為就成本來說差額實在太大了。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員國文：這個剛剛表列當中都有。還有雞肉的部分，從美國進口雞肉大概占50%，他們比較沒有偏好雞腿，這個部分有一個很現實的狀況，就是關稅有沒有讓步的可能性？這兩個夯不啷噹加總起來產值高達1,000億，這個部分透過貸款或者外銷可以因應嗎？可以解決問題嗎？部長，請說明。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，包括您剛才講的稻米還有雞肉，雞肉的國產自有率大概68%。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["陳部長駿季：但是它影響的是從北到南的全部產業，以農業部的立場，確保糧食的安全是最重要的，確保農民的權益是更重要的，所以在這兩個部分我們都會捍衛……"],["郭委員國文：有沒有堅守立場、捍衛到底？"],["陳部長駿季：我們都會捍衛原來的配額跟關稅。"],["郭委員國文：因為這個成本實在差非常多……"],["陳部長駿季：是，我知道。"],["郭委員國文：國產的稻米是50，美國的成本大概30，國產的雞肉是100，美國的大概68，這種情況對本土的產業會造成很大的衝擊，當然要堅守立場。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員國文：另外一個部分就是關於解除限制。我們一直被對方挑毛病的就是有關馬鈴薯發芽限制和基改，這個部分有談判的空間嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：馬鈴薯的部分是有的，因為馬鈴薯本身原來是直接退運，其實我們有提供一個可以篩選的機會，我們的條件還在那邊，但是我們提供他可以篩選的……"],["郭委員國文：所以這是將來我們的談判籌碼之一？"],["陳部長駿季：是，我覺得這樣會比較好一點。"],["郭委員國文：因為馬鈴薯發芽的部分可能構成食品安全問題，用一些科學數字可以做為談判的空間，這是可能性之一嘛！所以限制的部分才是談判的重點。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員國文：基改的部分呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我想基改的部分應該是衛福部主管，以農業部來講飼料才是由我們主管，現在的飼料大概都是以基改的玉米和黃豆為主。"],["郭委員國文：但是本席還是要跟你強調，前面配置的部分都是偏向相對強勢的項目，弱勢的部分請部長要特別予以因應跟關注。或許你的底牌還沒有想要掀出來，但是還有一個部分是針對人的方面，農民個人韌性也是非常關鍵，我覺得對整個農業家庭所受到的相關衝擊要去面對。第一，關於老農津貼的排富條款在2023年本席就已經提出，卻遲遲沒有得到回應，本人也跟你提過好幾次，已經相隔14年之久，不符時宜的部分該調就要調。第二，農保的覆蓋率也是偏低，這個部分非常清楚，也就是關於對個人韌性的加強，請農業部門針對農民相關的社會安全保障以及相關的福利網絡，能夠慎重的檢討。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員。有關老農津貼的排富條款，農業部已經把相關的建議提送行政院，行政院的政委也召開了相關的會議，現在在等待八大社福的一致性，如果八大社福有一致性的共識就會儘快提出修改，八大福利要有一致性……"],["郭委員國文：還有其他相關的保險部分請部長一併思考，這確實是要重新檢討及強化的時刻了。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們會努力來做。"],["郭委員國文：好。謝謝部長。謝謝主席。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，現在請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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親愛的何慶昌 何市長"},{"start":29.237,"end":53.811,"text":"市長17號我們核三廠的二號機停掉之後台灣所有的核電就歸零了他馬上碰到的問題就是我們的電價變貴因為成本增高了而且空污增加了變髒了變髒又變貴所以昨天在野黨非常負責任的我們提出了"},{"start":54.909,"end":81.309,"text":"核管法的修正我們把法律的這個障礙把它拿掉了希望可以把我們40年除疫的這個核電廠可以再延長60年這跟日本是一模一樣的跟國際是接軌的也符合民意那可是呢必須跟全國民眾講清楚到底核電要不要重啟 要不要延長這把鑰匙就在"},{"start":82.605,"end":110.795,"text":"民進黨政府跟台電的鎖上了如果台電不願意去申請民進黨政府不願意通過昨天雖然在野黨非常負責為了全國的民眾好我們完成了三讀可是以後的責任以後的責任我講得非常清楚全部都是民進黨負責至少民進黨要負四個責任我提出四大負責如果民進黨繼續擺爛不負責任全民就去跟民進黨討公道第一個"},{"start":112.235,"end":134.688,"text":"發電成本增高之後如果電價增高了民進黨不用核電請找民進黨討公道這是民進黨第一個要負責的第二個空汙會變嚴重因為取代的是高達84%以上的火力發電我們用費發電空汙是增加的大家健康受到影響空汙嚴重了請找民進黨負責第三個"},{"start":136.912,"end":161.755,"text":"請為產業負責我們產業核電因為是低碳甚至是零碳可是你用火力發電之後我們的碳費增加了影響到我們產業的發展衝擊產業這個發展民進黨要負責任另外接下來我要談一個可能被忽略的為國安負責民進黨一直在標榜說要抗中保台可是從廢掉核能"},{"start":163.339,"end":191.611,"text":"一直在用天然氣這個過程裡面你會發現民進黨啊抗中不只不保台還賣台變成中共的同路人了我給大家看一個報導最近啊法府就是美國啊法府在擔心什麼若解放軍發動封鎖台灣的天然氣因為存量不足會撐不下去就是會斷氣啦會影響到我們台灣整個這個防衛的這個韌性"},{"start":194.093,"end":220.613,"text":"那你們要保台灣那你用核電啊為什麼用那麼多的天然氣呢你現在核管法已經過了趕快回來用安全又可以持續穩定很久的核電而且依照國際公約聯合國的規定戰爭的時候不能擋核電廠可是大家有沒有注意到前陣子烏俄戰爭的時候俄羅斯是去打烏克蘭的天然氣儲存廠我再給大家看一個報導"},{"start":224.148,"end":247.188,"text":"4月2號啊 中共做了這個經驗 它在炸台灣六大目標裡面一個要摧毀是什麼永安天然氣的這個接收站啊你從烏鵝戰爭看出來了 你從它在模擬又看得出來了所以民進黨政府包括台電 你如果要抗中的同時 你要保台灣要用核電啊"},{"start":248.342,"end":269.48,"text":"要不然的話 民進黨就變成中共的同路人你的整個防衛任性被民進黨破壞掉了好 接下來我要問一個上次啊 我在這邊執行經濟部我提醒說啊台電的虧損還在持續擴大中1月份的時候台電虧損了97億結果呢"},{"start":275.607,"end":300.888,"text":"經濟部跟台電跟我講說 這樣算法可能有問題我說好 那你把你的算法給我結果呢 你們回我一個1158字的這個回文有關的只有114耶 不到十分之一耶而且沒有回答到重點啊 也沒有你說的你的計價方式啊我又跟你再次的這個所知你到現在沒有給我耶更嚴重了 來來來 我問一下"},{"start":303.288,"end":315.533,"text":"大家知道嗎 1月份虧了97億現在前三個月台電又虧損了242億這樣下去一年 今年搞不好又虧掉"},{"start":317.899,"end":330.325,"text":"會將近千億喔 原來跟民眾講的五百億 落差很大更嚴重的你們上次跟我講一直在發一個新聞稿說你們台電虧損的主要原因是因為天然氣的這個價格還是高峰我今天給你一個很明確的 來你看在112年的時候我們每用發一度電的這個成本"},{"start":344.045,"end":365.613,"text":"自動發電就在台電給你換了 一度的用燃煤3.43元 對不對這是台電的資料嘛 如果是燃氣3.44可是到了113年 到了去年 就大幅降低了捏有看到沒有 降到多少 2塊5 2塊94耶到了今年114 我去看最近的資料2.64 3.05"},{"start":369.808,"end":390.28,"text":"價格是不是降下來所以第二個第二個也很重要的我們現在平均一度電的發電是多少錢成本3.75對不對你現在的天然氣跟燃煤你的發電成本都比我們發電一度電的平均發電成本都低耶你現在還一直在講說你們必須要漲價你們的虧損是這個燃煤跟燃電"},{"start":394.298,"end":400.239,"text":"這不是很離譜嗎你不管是跟你現在自己的每一度電去比跟112年去比來那個先跟委員報告幾件事情第一個事情這個表示不同年份的數字這是第一個事第二個事情是您剛才提到的一些狀況就是說那個112年就是2023年2023年台電的虧損是2000多億2500億左右因為有補貼了500億所以變成1977億"},{"start":424.506,"end":440.747,"text":"狀況是這樣所以2022、2023才是台電虧損最嚴重的時候是那兩年2024以後就下降我們決算出來的虧損是441億今年我們預估大概因為預算編出來大概是這個規模可是還是要看能源價格的變動"},{"start":441.768,"end":460.435,"text":"所以真正的虧損是發生在2022、2023這兩年那到目前為止你如果是比的是國際油價其實台電並沒有直接進口天然氣所以真正的指標還是要看中油的天然氣排價所以我很清楚跟你講給你看的都是你們的決算跟預算報告嘛"},{"start":461.295,"end":479.726,"text":"這個比較就很清楚了嘛對不對我跟你講你講了一小部分啦我跟你講人民很清楚大概台電今年的成本確實有降啊但是你比較的是我會虧損兩千多億那一年的成本啊你懂我意思嗎就是說你拿了一個已經BIOS的機器來做比較人民看到你的虧損是"},{"start":484.175,"end":491.118,"text":"核電不用造成的一部分對不對買的地電太貴又出現弊案之後又沒有把它完全賣出去2022年2023年核三兩部機都在核二一部機也在但我們虧損最大的就是那兩年啊"},{"start":504.664,"end":522.937,"text":"這個不是沒有用你不要用話術補導人民核二跟核三在的時候我跟你講台電自己的數據你回去就看到台電有公佈過去年台電有公佈一個名人雀雀的因為一個核三廠前年一年就賺300億喔這支台電足量對不對你不會否認吧"},{"start":523.817,"end":532.806,"text":"就是對核電廠來講 核澳跟核三都是幫台電賺錢的結果你現在把它廢掉了那為什麼虧損會增大 你不要睜眼說瞎話啦那個沒有睜眼說瞎話 沒有睜眼說瞎話一般人一聽就聽得懂的你明明是一個賺錢的核二廠 核三廠你把它停掉 虧損當然就擴大啊我跟委員報告"},{"start":545.879,"end":569.972,"text":"照這樣子講的話如果我們不管是要選擇延逸重啟他這些新增的投資成本未來要不要算進我們的發電成本裡面是要的所以你不可以假定說這些成本不算未來我們如果是重啟或延逸基本上他發電成本還是會維持原來這麼低因為他已經是在最後要除役前幾年這些相關的花費是降低了我覺得這個基礎要在"},{"start":571.673,"end":584.001,"text":"我們一項一項跟國人做說明我沒有不要做說明我沒有開始鮮豔的說這件事情就是如何但是我們跟國人講清楚為了彌補你們的虧損你們3年已經佔了3000億了3年佔了4次電價給我動越來越大然後原因是什麼事實是"},{"start":593.422,"end":613.752,"text":"三個核電廠都在運轉的時候我們的空汙量才是最高的這幾年來有在下降所以空汙量的下降跟核電廠的使用可能有一點點關係 但它最不是主要關係很大關係吧 核電明明就是第一份之基礎地點啊委員 你去看你去看 你去看那個 問題是他真董事長 真董事長不要深言說笑話 核電廠我們叫民眾多說佳話 問題是那你明明用了"},{"start":619.255,"end":621.999,"text":"台灣這個發電的占比只有10%你要去解決其他90%的問題而不是處理這10%的問題過去這幾年來台電努力降低火力發電的空汙量這個是我們環境監理機構都在講的"},{"start":636.48,"end":644.452,"text":"這不是台電自己講的等一下 你今天的答詢完全違反常理先不要我講的每一點都是事實我每一點講的都是事實我講的都是事實你講的哪一點是常識"},{"start":654.095,"end":666.584,"text":"核電廠以前佔我們所有電的百分之十七它的成本是低的這一般民眾這常識聽得懂對不對然後你把這個其他的核一和核三把它補掉之後你的成本當然就升高這是一常識你的這個常識都要盡頭為什麼誤導民眾呢"},{"start":676.411,"end":683.454,"text":"我覺得不可以這個樣子你講的東西核對一段段的內容足以台灣能源轉型的合理討論如果真的要討論你如果說真的要負責有三個負責第一安全這個是專業的責任第二核廢料能處理這是世代的責任最後民意這是民主的責任我覺得對台電來講我們要做好安全的責任我們要想辦法來解決核廢料的問題"},{"start":705.282,"end":722.804,"text":"最後人民要怎麼選擇台電是事業單位尊重國內我們這整個包含國會這個是台灣的政府政府來做決定我問你一個常識性的問題核電是不是比天然氣跟燃煤便宜"},{"start":724.354,"end":733.663,"text":"第二個他的窗戶是不是比天然氣跟煤炭少所以他會變貴嘛你把他廢掉之後會變貴又變髒嘛我回答你剛剛講的三個問題"},{"start":740.046,"end":759.203,"text":"他到底安不安全 全世界每個人 包括美國 日本 法國全世界大家都 先進國家都在用核能而且是重返回核能 有哪一個國家說他不安全不安全人家敢用嗎而且我們是全世界的核能電廠 核能的操作者"},{"start":759.864,"end":783.256,"text":"都把安全當作他們最重要的手段 認真在處理我們核能人才是全世界肯定的我們核一核二核三都不想做 安全是全世界肯定的結果民進黨 你現在汙名化我們的核安人員嗎汙名化我們的核安人員 明明是全世界都肯定的安全你們為什麼要講他不安全呢"},{"start":784.296,"end":813.536,"text":"欸委員我剛才哪一句話在無話可說你嘴巴清楚講我們的核安到底安不安全為什麼要重啟核能你都不安全核能的安全不是一個人講或是你這樣子主張就安全核能的安全是基於技術跟嚴謹的程序來做到的嚴謹的程序跟合理的技術去做檢驗才做到的不是你在那邊講它安全你不怕昨天通過三讀的核管法嗎裡面就是明明確確第一個台電提出申請對不對第一個核安會要去檢查嘛"},{"start":814.737,"end":827.292,"text":"是不是當然是安全的狀況下啊我剛剛進步跟你講全世界大家都認為安全而且肯定我們的核能是安全的你為什麼說它不安全我沒有說它核配量 核配量全世界都要處理我沒有講這些話"},{"start":833.018,"end":857.508,"text":"我沒有直接這樣子輕率的下結論我從頭到尾都跟你說所有的安全建構所有的安全建構是建立在主理的然後在民意方面最近這幾次的民調你看一下不都六成以上認為要研議嗎我們還有與核洋利的公投你忘記了是不是好啦我們民眾黨還進一步去提出我們的核商公投"},{"start":859.945,"end":884.078,"text":"我剛剛提出四大負責 請民進黨要思考第一個 現在主動權在你們手上了在野黨非常負責任 完整客觀的刪除以後就是民進黨副前者了 到底電費有沒有變貴有沒有變髒 讓我們健康受到影響有沒有衝擊到產業 有沒有影響到國安我相信台灣人民水準很高 大家共同來評判有問題找民進黨以後民進黨副前者不要再推脫了 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":784,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時52分）謝謝主席，請何晉滄何次長。"],["主席：何次長。"],["何次長晉滄：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：次長，17號核三廠2號機停掉之後，臺灣所有的核電就歸零了，馬上碰到的問題就是我們的電價變貴，因為成本增高了，而且空污增加了，變髒又變貴，所以昨天在野黨非常負責任地提出了核管法的修正，我們把法律的障礙拿掉了，希望把40年除役的核電廠可以再延長到60年，這跟日本是一模一樣的，跟國際是接軌的，也符合民意，可是必須跟全國民眾講清楚，到底核電要不要重啟、要不要延長，這把鑰匙就在民進黨政府跟台電的手上，如果台電不願意去申請，民進黨政府不願意通過，昨天雖然在野黨非常負責，為了全國的民眾好，我們完成了三讀，可是以後的責任，我講得非常清楚，以後的責任全部都是民進黨負責，至少民進黨要負四個責任，我提出四大負責，如果民進黨繼續擺爛、不負責任，全民就去跟民進黨討公道。第一個，發電成本增高之後，如果電價增高了，民進黨不用核電，請找民進黨討公道，這是民進黨第一個要負責的；第二個，空污會變嚴重，因為取代的是高達84%以上的火力發電，我們用肺發電，空污是增加的，大家健康受到影響，空污嚴重了，請找民進黨負責；第三個，請為產業負責，核電因為是低碳，甚至是零碳，可是用火力發電之後，碳費增加了，影響到我們產業的發展、衝擊產業發展，民進黨要負責任；接下來我要談一個可能被忽略的為國安負責，民進黨一直在標榜要抗中保臺，可是從廢掉核能一直到用天然氣的過程裡面，你會發現民進黨抗中不只不保臺，還賣臺，變成中共的同路人了。","我給大家看一個報導，最近華府（就是美國）在擔心什麼？如果解放軍發動封鎖，臺灣的天然氣因為存量不足會撐不下去，就是會斷氣啦！這樣會影響到我們臺灣整個防衛的韌性，你們要保臺灣，那就用核電啊！為什麼用那麼多的天然氣呢？現在核管法已經通過了，趕快回來用安全又可以持續穩定很久的核電，而且依照國際公約、聯合國的規定，在戰爭的時候不能打核電廠欸！可是大家有沒有注意到，在前一陣子烏俄戰爭的時候，俄羅斯是去打烏克蘭的天然氣儲存槽？我再給大家看一個報導，4月2號中共軍演，模擬炸臺灣的六大目標，其中一個要摧毀的是什麼？就是永安天然氣接收站。你從烏俄戰爭看出來了，你從中共的模擬又看出來了，所以民進黨政府包括台電如果在抗中的同時要保臺灣，就要用核電啊！要不然的話，民進黨就變成中共的同路人，整個防衛韌性被民進黨破壞掉了。","好，接下來我要問一個問題，上次我在這邊質詢經濟部，我有提醒台電的虧損還在持續擴大中，1月份的時候台電虧損了97億，結果經濟部跟台電跟我說這樣的算法可能有問題，我說那你把你的算法給我，結果你們回我一個寫了1,158字的回文，有關的只有114字，還不到十分之一，而且沒有回答到重點，也沒有你所說你用的計價方式啊！我又跟你再次索資，可是你到現在都沒有給我。還有更嚴重的問題，來，我問一下，大家知道嗎？1月份虧了97億，現在前3個月台電又虧損了242億，再這樣下去，今年搞不好會虧掉將近千億，跟原來跟民眾講的500億落差很大。總經理，你聽我說，更嚴重的是，你們上次跟我講要發一個新聞稿，說你們台電虧損的主要原因是因為天然氣的價格還是在高峰，我今天給你看很明確的數字，來，你看這個台電的資料，在112年的時候，台電自己每發1度電的成本，燃煤是3.43元，燃氣是3.44元；可是到了去年（113年）就大幅降低了，你有看到嗎？降到多少？分別是2.5元、2.94元；到了今年（114年），我去看了最近的資料，分別是2.64元、3.05元，價格是不是降下來了？第二個也很重要的是，我們現在平均1度電的發電成本是多少？是3.75元對不對？你現在天然氣跟燃煤1度電的發電成本，都比平均發電成本還低，你還一直說你們必須要漲價，你們的虧損是燃煤跟燃氣，這不是很離譜嗎？不管是跟現在你自己發電的每1度電成本去比、跟112年去比，來，請說明。"],["曾董事長文生：先跟委員報告幾件事情，第一個，這個表示不同年份的數字，這是第一個。第二個，您剛才有提到一些狀況，就是在112年也就是2023年台電的虧損是二千多億、2,500億左右，因為有補貼了500億，所以變成1,977億，狀況是這樣，所以2022年、2023年才是台電虧損最嚴重的時候，就是在那兩年，從2024年以後就下降了，我們決算出來的虧損是441億。今年我們預估，因為預算編出來大概是這個規模，可是還是要看能源價格的變動，所以真正的虧損是發生在2022年、2023年這兩年，到目前為止，你如果比的是國際油價，其實台電並沒有直接進口天然氣，所以真正的指標還是要看中油的天然氣牌價，那個才比較準確。"],["張委員啓楷：我給你看的數字很清楚，都是根據你們的決算跟預算報告，這個比較就很清楚了，對不對？我跟你講，你講的一小部分，人民很清楚……"],["曾董事長文生：台電今年的成本確實有下降，但是你比較的是我會虧損二千多億那一年的成本啊！你懂我的意思嗎？就是說你拿了一個已經biased的基期來做比較，不會通啦！"],["張委員啓楷：人民看到你的虧損是，核電不用造成的一部分，對不對？買了綠電……"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，我們……"],["張委員啓楷：你的綠電太貴，又出現弊案之後，又沒有把它完全賣出去，所以從今年開始……"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，2022年、2023年，我們核三兩部機都在，核二一部機也在，但我們虧損最大的就是那兩年啊，這個不是沒有用核電，就是說……"],["張委員啓楷：你不要用話術誤導人民……"],["曾董事長文生：這個不是話術，這個是事實，我現在講的是事實……"],["張委員啓楷：核二跟核三在的時候，我跟你講台電自己的數據……"],["曾董事長文生：核電能不能用不是這樣子討論的……"],["張委員啓楷：你回去就查得到，台電有公布過，去年台電有公布一個明明確確的，因為一個核三廠，前年一年就賺300億，這個你太清楚了，對不對？你不會否認嘛？"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：就是就核電廠來講，核二跟核三都是幫台電賺錢的，結果你現在把它廢掉了。"],["曾董事長文生：委員、委員，我跟你說……"],["張委員啓楷：那為什麼虧損會增大？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，我跟您報告……"],["張委員啓楷：你不要睜眼說瞎話啦！"],["曾董事長文生：那個沒有睜眼說瞎話……"],["張委員啓楷：董事長，這個一般人都看……"],["曾董事長文生：沒有睜眼說瞎話，我們一個一個來處理，你用你的方法做了說明……"],["張委員啓楷：一般人一聽都聽得懂的，明明是賺錢的核二廠、核三廠，你把它停掉，那虧損當然就擴大了。"],["曾董事長文生：我要跟委員報告，照這樣子講的話，如果我們不管是要選擇延役或重啟，這些新增的投資成本未來要不要算進我們的發電成本裡面？是要的。所以你不可以假定這些成本不算，未來我們如果是重啟或延役，基本上他的發電成本還是會維持原來這麼低，因為它已經是在最後要除役前幾年，這些相關的花費是降低了，我覺得這個基礎要在。我們一項一項跟國人做說明，我沒有不做說明，我也沒有一開始就先驗的說，這件事情就是如何……"],["張委員啓楷：我們跟國人……"],["曾董事長文生：但是就像你講的……"],["張委員啓楷：我們跟國人講清楚，為了彌補你們的虧損……"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，你講的那幾件事情，第一件事情……"],["張委員啓楷：你們三年已經補了3,000億了，三年漲了四次電價，結果洞越來越大，原因是什麼？"],["曾董事長文生：第一件事情，事實是三個核電廠都在運轉的時候，我們的空污量才是最高的，這幾年來有在下降，所以空污量的下降跟核電廠的使用可能有一點點關係，但它不是主要的關係。"],["張委員啓楷：一點點關係？很大的關係吧！核電明明就是低碳，就幾近於零啊！"],["曾董事長文生：委員，你如果去看，問題是它的占比……"],["張委員啓楷：曾董事長……"],["曾董事長文生：問題是它的占比……"],["張委員啓楷：曾董事長，不要睜眼說瞎話，核電廠一般民眾都知道，它是低碳……"],["曾董事長文生：我沒有睜眼說瞎話，問題是，委員……"],["張委員啓楷：那你明明用了天然氣跟燃煤，天然氣跟燃煤就是有污染……"],["曾董事長文生：臺灣核能發電的占比只有百分之十，你要去解決其他百分之九十的問題，而不是處理這百分之十的問題。過去這幾年來，台電努力降低火力發電的空污量，這個是我們環境監理機構都在講的，這不是台電自己講的。"],["張委員啓楷：董事長，你今天的答詢完全違反常理，先不要……"],["曾董事長文生：我講的每一點都是事實，我每一點講的都是事實……"],["張委員啓楷：一般的民眾都懂的事情你在那邊……一般的民眾都懂，這個都是基本的常識……"],["曾董事長文生：我講的都是事實，你講的哪一點是常識？而且你剛剛講的是大部分，我可以跟你說，我們盡責負責，不是這個樣子做的。"],["張委員啓楷：核電廠以前占我們所有發電的百分之十七，它的成本是低的，這是一般民眾的常識，聽得懂，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：百分之十七的時候的發電母數是多少？然後我也要問你核一廠兩個東西……"],["張委員啓楷：然後你把核一、核二、核三停掉之後，你的成本當然就升高，這是不是常識？"],["曾董事長文生：核一廠兩部機組為什麼沒有運轉的？"],["張委員啓楷：你連常識都要辯駁，為什麼要誤導民眾呢？"],["曾董事長文生：我覺得不可以這個樣子，你講的東西，這些內容……"],["張委員啓楷：核電一度電一塊三到一塊五……"],["曾董事長文生：你講一些片段的內容無助於臺灣能源轉型的合理討論，如果真的要討論，你如果真的要負責，有三個負責：第一、安全，這是專業的責任；第二、核廢料能處理，這是世代的責任；最後──民意，這是民主的責任。我覺得對台電來講，我們要做好安全的責任，我們要想辦法來解決核廢料的問題，最後人民要怎麼選擇，台電是事業單位，我們尊重國內整個，包含國會，這個是臺灣的政府，由政府來做決定。"],["張委員啓楷：來啦，我問你一個常識性的問題，核電是不是比天然氣跟燃煤便宜？"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，要看by什麼stage，你要看它是什麼stage……"],["張委員啓楷：目前，第二個，它的空污是不是比天然氣跟煤炭少？"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你把它廢掉之後是不是成本會變貴，這是一個常識，一般民眾都懂。"],["曾董事長文生：委員，如果是這樣，你有沒有問過我一個問題……"],["張委員啓楷：然後我回答你剛剛講的三個問題，它到底安不安全？全世界每個人，包括美國、日本、法國，全世界先進國家大家都用核能，而且是重返回核能，有哪一個國家說它不安全？不安全人家敢用嗎？而且我們是全世界……"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，這一些國家的核能電廠、核能的操作者都把安全當作他們最重要的……"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！我們……"],["曾董事長文生：認真在處理，這一點是基礎嘛，但是你跟我討論的問題不是這樣子談的，你完全都不先講這些程序就來講。"],["張委員啓楷：我們的核能人才是全世界肯定的，我們核一、核二、核三的運作，安全是不是全世界肯定的？結果民進黨，你現在污名化我們的核安人員嗎？污名化我們的核能嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：我什麼時候污名化核安人員了？"],["張委員啓楷：明明是全世界都肯定的安全……"],["曾董事長文生：我剛才講的哪一句話……"],["張委員啓楷：你們為什麼講它不安全呢？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，我剛才哪一句話在侮辱核安人員？"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，所以不然就請你嘴巴清楚講，我們的核安到底安不安全，為什麼要重啟，核能安不安全？"],["曾董事長文生：核能安全不是一個人講，或是你這樣子主張就安全，核能的安全是基於技術跟嚴謹的程序來做到的，嚴謹的程序跟合理的技術去做檢驗才做到的，不是你在這邊講它安全就真的安全。"],["張委員啓楷：你有看昨天通過三讀的核管法嗎？裡面就是明明確確，第一個，台電提出申請，對不對？之後核安會要去檢查嘛，是不是？當然是安全的狀況下啊！我剛剛進一步講跟你講，全世界大家都認為安全，而且肯定我們的核能是安全的，你為什麼說它不安全？第二個，你講核廢料，核廢料全世界人家都在處理，美國AIT還說可以幫我們處理……"],["曾董事長文生：我沒有說它不安全，委員、委員，你不要把我沒有講的話放到我嘴裡，我沒有講這些話，我沒有講這些話，我沒有直接這樣子輕率地下結論，我從頭到尾都跟你說，所有的安全建構都是建立在嚴謹的程序上。"],["張委員啓楷：所以，這段時間民進黨一直在講的安全不是問題，核廢料連美國AIT都說願意幫我們處理了，然後在民意方面，最近這幾次的民調你去看一下，不是都六成以上認為要延役嗎？我們還有以核養綠的公投，你忘記了是不是？好啦，我們民眾黨還進一步去提出，我們有核三公投。","我剛剛提出四大負責，請民進黨要思考，第一個，現在主動權在你們手上了，在野黨非常負責任地完成了核管法三讀，以後就是民進黨負全責了，到底電費有沒有變貴；電有沒有變髒，讓我們的健康受到影響；有沒有衝擊到產業，有沒有影響到國安，我相信臺灣人民水準高，大家共同來評判，有問題找民進黨，以後民進黨負全責，不要再推拖了。謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們現在請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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主席有請部長 顧部長有請顧部長 謝謝攝影師好 部長好本來今天這個"},{"start":16.124,"end":36.056,"text":"聚焦是讨论预算解冻所以在之前我并没有登记发言但是因为前面听到了几位委员那么这个质询有关国际情势以及预算冻结会不会影响到国军的战力甚至油盐转战"},{"start":38.197,"end":51.868,"text":"我覺得扭曲了方向我不針對個人來講那現在我就特別對印阿戰爭這個印巴戰爭的這個衝突性以及一些分析的方法我提供國防部做個參考"},{"start":55.595,"end":74.323,"text":"因為我這是臨時決定所以只是傳了三張圖本來這個圖都是動態的第一個就是10號雖然宣布停火了但是小型的衝突還是有發生最主要就是當兩個國家有空中衝突的時候第一個給我們的不是國際媒體的報導"},{"start":76.26,"end":98.605,"text":"因为如果你有个软体你是付钱客户的话你可以看国际民航的机的航道也就知道它是最敏感的第一个航线取消第二个改道所以你用Flightradar24用付款的客户的话你可以回溯到哪一天哪一天当时的民航机立刻改道这是一个预警第二个就是说涵盖大范围的图像"},{"start":99.966,"end":110.596,"text":"國防部已經強調了現在都在進行這個所謂J-Cup但是呢那是你的功能整合可是你對於"},{"start":112.711,"end":137.156,"text":"民間或是對於我們的國安團隊或者是對比較高階的長官要做報告的時候你不能用一張單獨透明圖涵蓋所以你可以看到這個圖的是涵蓋印度巴基斯坦實際上這個原始檔案是套在衛星照片上這個飛機是動態的圖那麼就是克什米爾的衝突就在中間的那個方塊上面我們再進到下一張圖"},{"start":140.094,"end":163.68,"text":"刚才也有委员讲说不要被媒体战心理战误导了中国的东西厉不厉害是一回事我们要了解敌方的强点怎么样预防那么发现我的不足地方怎么强化这一次在巴基斯坦国际媒体记者会说他用的是令克妖怪"},{"start":164.571,"end":191.938,"text":"这个是吃豆腐了因为在2001年呢4月1号美国的EP3在南海跟中共创机那这个飞机啊紧急迫降在临水机场这个飞机被中共扣了14天美国当时讲啊你扣一天呢我就提供台湾一个军售所以那个2001年了美国通过13项军售但后面执行状况我们不是今天的重点在这个14天中间呢"},{"start":193.697,"end":220.636,"text":"中国大陆把美国这个飞机拆解逆向工程我相信在部分Link16的通讯的一些框架概念架构上面他们得到了一些技术逆向工程然后这个飞机拆解的最后是跟俄罗斯租飞机运回美国去这个图是一个矩阵的方块图那一般我们的媒体都说是这个利用这个ZK3直接"},{"start":222.575,"end":228.121,"text":"帶飛機 管飛彈 那個技術工程他們不懂 我不批評這個裡面告訴你是一個網路架構"},{"start":229.229,"end":253.768,"text":"那我们国军也有这个网络架构可是这个网络架构呈现出来的东西你必须用一个图像就像在右下角的那个中间克什米尔那个冲突点的爆发地方都可以显示出来那么根据这个巴基斯坦国际媒体的讲是打掉三架标峰一架苏凯三四一架米格二十九"},{"start":254.528,"end":263.143,"text":"那還有一架無人機那這個印度呢對外就講他損失三價不講細節這些啊如果你沒有一個完整的"},{"start":265.205,"end":289.447,"text":"网络格局的框架有时候对别人解释是比较难的它不是点度点它是进到系统的框架里面然后做目标的分配至于预警机本身它的项链雷达搜索式的主动项链雷达被动式项链雷达它能不能去控制飞弹的频道那是另外一回事我们就不去谈判看下一张图"},{"start":291.141,"end":315.947,"text":"这个图就是给我们做一个国军要做个参考我们现在平常去报告有关这个中共的威胁在台海周遭活动我们只是聚焦在防空识别区以及周遭一点点范围这个是这个今年的3月底这个山东号穿越那我相信我们的航机都有追踪可是对于日本的防空识别区"},{"start":317.458,"end":341.169,"text":"東海防空事務局的涵蓋範圍重疊區以及鄰近國家的涵蓋範圍如果能夠標註上去你就知道他另外有四條船從東海艦隊下來跟他會合穿越宮古水道的時候實際上日本是全程掌握但這個情資有沒有跟我們互惠分享"},{"start":342.199,"end":361.797,"text":"可能没有及时分享但是还是可以当然交换那这个图我给的建议就是说我们必须建立一个幅员比较大的一个图包括了你的防控识别区包括你的临海基线包括对方的驻地那个是公开资料那用这个情况下"},{"start":363.161,"end":382.483,"text":"對於我們在部內開會或跨部會開會或是提供我們高階的到國安會去的時候你看到的是一個完整的構想而不是一個空的圖那麼那個距離是比較難的我這個是特別提供聯二或者是我們做勤研單位做個分析這一次的"},{"start":384.303,"end":408.483,"text":"硬扒双方的国际记者会我建议大家去把它英文版的看下来然后交叉比对而不是说因为我们国队的媒体报道就被洗脑了中国大陆他现在技术有突破也有从过去的资料立项工程达到的我们一直是美国的使用客户有些东西要做精进像这一次"},{"start":409.344,"end":428.315,"text":"巴基斯坦承认美国不准他使用F16只准做境内的防空但不能做公式行动像这些东西如果你把印巴的我想后面我们下次说提供一个完整的印巴的作战图像给各位做一个参考我们要共同努力也是希望这个"},{"start":429.255,"end":431.116,"text":"这是给我们一个例子谢谢"},{"start":446.621,"end":471.209,"text":"我想我們對剛剛陳委員指教我們是對全境都有您剛剛的圖示這樣的前進是都有所掌握那有關於這一次的相關在印巴衝突之中的這些相關的一些作為我想我們密切的來收住以後我們會來有一個應對的一個作為這樣那林鶴要不要補充還是"},{"start":472.435,"end":488.864,"text":"報委員 聯合次長在這邊跟您做報告您剛剛所指教的我們會列入後面深入探討的重點那另外還有一些可能也不適合在工程上面跟您做報告的我們後面如果您需要的話我們會再跟您做說明 謝謝好 謝謝 大家共同努力好 謝謝 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家資通安全研究院也做了通報他不僅僅是賣中國的貼牌貨他的監視器主機竟然有連線到中國的行為那這個事情就大條了第一個賣中國貼牌貨第二個他的監視器主機連線到中國然後竟然說是我們台灣的安控國家隊"},{"start":73.357,"end":97.944,"text":"那這個事情因為很嚴重所以我在總質詢的時候我有質詢卓榮泰院長那院長當時我在總質詢的時候可能對於過去這兩個月所發生這樣的事情沒有什麼掌握那也沒有關係那我就給院長時間那院長說他兩個禮拜會要求所有相關的部會來去清查最後的結果回來"},{"start":99.434,"end":107.696,"text":"我等到上個禮拜五兩週的時間到了因為負責統合的是速發部速發部要把資訊回傳回來速發部回傳的是說他們目前統計有3400項這樣子的產品用在各個不同的部會當中那3400項這個數字當然是讓人看了非常的擔心那不過"},{"start":128.956,"end":143.174,"text":"他上面的三千四百項其實不包括國防部跟經濟部他說國防部還在整理資料請問一下部長目前整理資料的情況跟進度到什麼地方總指示"},{"start":144.671,"end":168.269,"text":"網友好通知是報告首先先跟委員講一下這個東西是我們在治安健檢的時候主動發現的沒有關係跟回報的事情所以你們如果是很早就發現的話應該資料找就好了對所以我們統部國軍總共有954部是有這個但是都屬於單機跟脫離網域的它是獨立作業的這是我們清查完的全國軍有954部那你什麼時候知道有954部是5月2號"},{"start":174.199,"end":203.201,"text":"對,那為什麼上個禮拜不回我資料我們現在已檢查,我們立刻回覆不是啊,我覺得很奇怪啊這個是左榮泰做的承諾啊我總質詢也沒為難他兩個禮拜也是左榮泰說的那我也願意給左榮泰時間啊啊,速發部回給我的是說你們國防部資料還沒有準備好然後你今天跟我講說原來你5月2號東西都好了那很奇怪,那你們東西都好了為什麼不給我"},{"start":205.509,"end":225.398,"text":"所以我們下去檢討那你們現在這900多部現在打算怎麼辦因為它屬於單機我們現在都禁止它使用了那因為它沒有跟民網連線它屬於獨立的網域沒有啦 我們一樣一樣來啦現在你先不要牽涉到連線上面的問題啦依照國防部的規範可以買中國的貼牌貨嗎不可以"},{"start":228.061,"end":253.382,"text":"所以我現在才問你要怎麼處理我們現在有精進的作為精進的作為是未來現在這900多部要怎麼處理我們已經停用了 全部都完全停用只要停用就算了我們會檢討當初為什麼會有因為這個還是要在說明原來是我們自己發現的是啦 900多部你要不要跟廠商求償跟他主張要他負法律責任這個是最基本的吧"},{"start":254.178,"end":280.049,"text":"你未來當然要改善嘛現在我是針對你這900多部你說有安全的疑慮先停用我同意但是這900多部要納稅人買單嗎這是我的問題這個責任總要追究吧我有沒有說錯沒有部長那個再麻煩部長督導一下相關的法律責任該追究要追究啦因為發生這樣的事情還是納稅人買單這樣不對吧"},{"start":282.114,"end":302.024,"text":"我們會去檢視一下相關的合約然後來進行依合約來進行好 看怎麼處置等你們方便的時候回覆給我我也不壓時間 這樣可以嗎好 再來就是因為這種事情一而再再而三的發生我老實講 我非常驚訝"},{"start":303.766,"end":329.36,"text":"也蠻困擾的因為我又接到檢舉說我們的資通訊產品就禁用中國製的東西然後呢但是我接到檢舉我一定去求證我一定求證我不會有人給我檢舉我的就算了所以我四月的時候跑去龍門營區按照他檢舉的資料我去了現場我去了現場看那個交換器"},{"start":331.071,"end":351.541,"text":"這個是我在現場看那個機器跟拍的照片大剌剌的就寫Made in China那我就覺得很奇怪這是我們政府早就宣示的政策而且這個機子是最近才裝的那怎麼會大剌剌的上面貼著Made in China那我們還是讓他放在我們國軍的營區當中呢"},{"start":354.673,"end":378.481,"text":"因為我那天看完了以後我有跟那個我們營區的弟弟兄說說這個事情可能要跟國防部反映一下因為你們應該要有一個標準的作業程序吧今天在你們所提出來的書面報告當中書面報告你們說要在營區裝智慧型警戒案執行規劃報告這個報告寫的都不錯啊"},{"start":384.003,"end":412.674,"text":"說你們一定不會用然後有省監人員攝影機不會用絕對不允許但現實的狀況就不是這樣啊部長這件事情你有掌握嗎他沒有通報上來我是不是請常務長好來是包委我簡單報告一下這個案子他兩個缺失第一個單位是以小額採購而且他沒有呈報到市民部來審核那這個的確是我們要再檢討精進的一個地方"},{"start":415.545,"end":432.434,"text":"我這樣說好了啦因為其實我那天去農民營區的時候跟那些弟兄有面對面的溝通嘛其實我覺得那些弟兄其實蠻認真也蠻負責的啦所以我腦袋我一直在想說他們應該不是故意的他們應該不是故意的"},{"start":433.234,"end":459.975,"text":"可能是採購的人員東西送來的時候在SOP的程序上面連看都沒看一下這個東西到底是哪裡做的因為他真的大剌剌的就寫Made in China結果我那天在這個影區看的時候我看到這一台因為我在找檢舉人的檢舉機器在哪裡我看完這一台了以後我到辦公室裡面又看到一台更大台的"},{"start":461.038,"end":479.227,"text":"又看到一排更大的牌那上面一樣是用簡體字寫那用簡體字寫我看了這個就是說這個貼牌只限於用在中國的區域那我一看就知道這中國字啦那我就問營區的弟兄說這東西哪裡來的他說是第六軍團從上面發下來的"},{"start":482.27,"end":489.459,"text":"不是他們買的這個事情他們有通報嗎這個是他們小兒採購沒有沒有他們那天"},{"start":491.96,"end":516.232,"text":"他們那上面一張你看的是他們自己想採購這個不是他們採購的這個他說是第六軍團發下來所以我後來才發文去問第六軍團所以你們怎麼會發這個東西給人家所以後面您查的六個採購暗號那六個採購暗號另外我們查的就是剛才您委員所指導的那個深瑞的那個那個監視器的主機的部分"},{"start":517.011,"end":534.84,"text":"沒有啦現在就這個已經不是深瑞這是這不是深瑞的監視器這個是交換器網路交換器是是是龍門營區的四個網路交換器是這個不是深瑞的這個是中國製的你有沒有看一下造物片有有四顆對那我現在的問題一模一樣"},{"start":535.76,"end":559.839,"text":"他們說這不是他們買的是第六軍團發的現在問題很簡單第六軍團怎麼會上面的單位發給我們基層的單位直接發中國製的交換器給他們因為你如果說基層的弟兄採購人員訓練不足SOP沒有建立好有一些疏失這個我都可以理解但東西是從上面發下來的問題就嚴重了"},{"start":561.226,"end":579.537,"text":"我這樣說有沒有錯這個我要下去再了解一下因為當初我的了解是是他們採小額採購然後沒有循序不是啦 那個是上一台這一台不是這樣那個書面報告他們有回給我再麻煩你們回去了解一下好不好因為"},{"start":580.714,"end":595.792,"text":"我相信政府做這樣的宣示,政策上面做這樣的宣示,大家都支持啊但問題是在執行面上面,從去年到今年一件又一件,一件又一件的爆發那顯然在執行面上面出了非常大的問題嘛部長我這樣說對吧"},{"start":599.629,"end":614.504,"text":"我想我們會再來做一個執行面上面的一個徹底的這個檢討好 那你們執行面上面到底要怎麼樣徹底的檢討這件事情你們方便的時候給我一個書面報告可以嗎是好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":425,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時49分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：有請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。資安就是國安，我相信這個應該是大家目前的共識，今年3月的時候有查獲一家昇銳電子，之前是安控國家隊，結果做了丟人現眼的事情，說是臺灣的安控國家隊，結果在賣中國貼牌貨，把中國的監視器改標成MIT。據相關的資訊，國防部的軍事要塞、關鍵基礎設施統統都淪陷，4月的時候國家資通安全研究院也做了通報，它不僅僅是賣中國的貼牌貨，它的監視器主機竟然有連線到中國的行為，這個事情就大條了。第一個，賣中國貼牌貨；第二個，它的監視器主機連線到中國，竟然說是我們臺灣的安控國家隊。這件事情因為很嚴重，所以我在總質詢的時候有質詢卓榮泰院長，當時我在總質詢的時候，院長可能對於過去這兩個月所發生這樣的事情沒有什麼掌握，也沒有關係，我就給院長時間，院長說他兩個禮拜會要求所有相關的部會清查最後的結果。我等到上個禮拜五，兩週的時間到了，因為負責統合的是數發部，數發部要把資訊回傳回來，數發部回傳的是他們目前統計有3,400項這樣的產品用在各個不同的部會當中，3,400項這個數字當然是讓人看了非常擔心，不過上面的3,400項不包括國防部和經濟部，國防部還在整理資料。請問部長，目前整理資料的情況和進度到什麼地方？"],["顧部長立雄：請通次室。"],["鄧次長恩憐：委員好，通次室報告。首先，先跟委員講一下，這個東西是我們在資安健檢主動發現和回報的事情。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，所以你們如果是很早就發現的話，應該資料早就好了。"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們統計國軍總共有954部，但是都是屬於單機和脫離網域的，它是獨立作業的，這是我們清查完的結果，國軍有954部。"],["黃委員國昌：你什麼時候知道有954部？"],["鄧次長恩憐：是5月2日。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼上個禮拜不回我資料？"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們現在檢討，我們現在立刻回復。"],["黃委員國昌：不是啊！我覺得很奇怪，這個是卓榮泰做的承諾，我總質詢也沒為難他，兩個禮拜也是卓榮泰說的，我也願意給卓榮泰時間，數發部給我的回復是國防部資料還沒有準備好，然後你今天跟我講原來5月2日東西都好了，很奇怪，你們東西都好了，為什麼不給我？"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們下去檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：你們現在這九百多部打算怎麼辦？"],["鄧次長恩憐：因為它屬於單機，我們現在都禁止它使用，因為它沒有跟民網連線，是屬於獨立的網域，所以……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我們一樣、一樣來，現在你先不要牽涉到連線上面的問題，依照國防部的規範，可以買中國的貼牌貨嗎？"],["鄧次長恩憐：不可以。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我現在才問你要怎麼處理。"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們現在有精進的作為，在整個採購……"],["黃委員國昌：精進的作為是未來，現在這九百多部要怎麼處理？"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們已經停用了，全部都完全停用。"],["黃委員國昌：只要停用就算囉？"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們會檢討當初為什麼會有這種情況，因為這個還是要述明，原來是我們自己發現的……"],["黃委員國昌：是，九百多部你要不要跟廠商求償，跟它主張要它負法律責任？這個是最基本的，未來當然要改善，現在我是針對這九百多部，你說有安全疑慮先停用，我同意，但是這九百多部要納稅人買單嗎？這是我的問題，這個責任總要追究，我有沒有說錯？"],["鄧次長恩憐：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，再麻煩部長督導一下相關的法律責任，該追究要追究，因為發生這樣的事情還是納稅人買單，這樣不對吧？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會去檢視一下相關的合約，然後依合約來進行。"],["黃委員國昌：好，怎麼處置等你們方便的時候回復給我，我也不押時間，這樣可以嗎？"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們儘速。"],["黃委員國昌：好。再來，因為這種事情一而再、再而三的發生，老實講，我非常驚訝也滿困擾的，因為我又接到檢舉說我們的資通訊產品禁用中國製的東西，我接到檢舉一定會去求證，不會有人給我檢舉我就算了。所以我4月的時候跑去龍門營區，按照他檢舉的資料，我去了現場看那個交換器，這個是我在現場看那個機器和拍的照片，大剌剌的就寫Made In China，我覺得很奇怪，這是我們政府早就宣示的政策，而且這個機子是最近才裝的，怎麼會大剌剌的上面貼著Made In China，還是讓它放在我們國軍的營區當中呢？我那天看完了以後有跟營區的弟兄說這個事情可能要跟國防部反映一下，因為你們應該要有一個標準的作業程序，在你們今天所提出來的書面報告當中，你們有提到要在營區裝智慧型警監案的執行規劃報告，這個報告寫得都不錯，說你們一定不會用，然後有審監人員，攝影機不會用，絕對不允許，但現實的狀況就不是這樣，部長，這件事情你有掌握嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：他們有通報上來，我是不是請參謀長？"],["黃委員國昌：好。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，我簡單報告一下，這個案子有兩個缺失，第一個，單位是以小額採購，而且沒有陳報到司令部來審核，這個的確是我們要再檢討精進的地方。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了，我那天去龍門營區的時候，有跟那些弟兄面對面的溝通，我覺得那些弟兄其實滿認真也滿負責的，所以我腦袋一直在想他們應該不是故意的，可能是採購人員在東西送來的時候，在SOP的程序上面連看都沒看一下，這個東西到底是哪裡做的，因為它真的大剌剌的就寫Made In China。我那天在這個營區看的時候，我看到這一臺，因為我在找檢舉人檢舉的機器在哪裡，我看完這一臺以後，我到辦公室裡面又看到一臺更大臺的，上面一樣是用簡體字寫，我看到這個貼牌只限於用在中國的區域，我一看就知道這是中國製，我就問營區的弟兄這東西哪裡來的，他們說是第六軍團從上面發下來的，不是他們買的，這個事情他們有通報嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，這個是他們小額採購的……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有、沒有，上面那一張是他們自己小額採購，這個不是他們採購的，他們說這是第六軍團發下來的，所以我後來才發文去問第六軍團怎麼會發這個東西給人家。"],["陳參謀長建義：所以後面你查的6個採購案號，另外，我們查的就是剛才委員所指導的昇銳的監視器主機部分。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，現在這個已經不是昇銳，這不是昇銳的監視器，這個是交換器。"],["陳參謀長建義：是網路交換器。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["陳參謀長建義：龍門營區的4個網路交換器。"],["黃委員國昌：這個不是昇銳的，這個是中國製的，你有沒有看一下照片？"],["陳參謀長建義：有，有4顆。"],["黃委員國昌：我現在的問題一模一樣，他們說這不是他們買的，是第六軍團發的，現在我的問題很簡單，怎麼會上面的單位第六軍團發給我們的基層單位是直接發中國製的交換器給他們，因為如果是基層弟兄的採購人員訓練不足，SOP沒有建立好，有一些疏失，這個我都可以理解，但東西是從上面發下來的，問題就嚴重了，我這樣說有沒有錯？"],["陳參謀長建義：這個我要下去再瞭解一下，因為當初我的瞭解是他們採小額採購，然後沒有循序來做。"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！那個是上一臺，這一臺不是這樣，那個書面報告他們有回給我，再麻煩你們回去瞭解一下，好不好？"],["陳參謀長建義：好。"],["黃委員國昌：因為我相信政府做這樣的宣示，政策上面做這樣的宣示，大家都支持，但問題是在執行面上面，從去年到今年一件又一件、一件又一件的爆發，顯然在執行面上面出了非常大的問題，部長，我這樣說對吧？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會再來做執行面上的澈底檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：你們在執行面上面到底要怎麼樣澈底檢討這件事情，你們方便的時候給我一個書面報告，可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","接下來有請陳永康委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":40,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-13","speakers":["沈伯洋","陳俊宇","徐巧芯","羅美玲","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王定宇","林憶君","王鴻薇","黃國昌","陳永康","馬文君","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，國防部主管預算凍結案等54案","agenda_id":"1144901_00001"}}},{"id":"161335","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161335","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b512fd0987024628fd304acf7f12681bdab8e08a4c8c91792ca7091789dec401d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:41:44 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參謀長在今年的5月8號其實發生了一個非常嚴重的事情就是在松山機場的松址部竟然停電將近8個小時之久那這個事情第一時間我看到媒體的報導部長說都有掌握我想部長恐怕掌握的是有停電的狀況"},{"start":42.637,"end":52.209,"text":"那其實我個人我自己本身就住在這個松山機場的旁邊所以呢在整個的就全台限電邊阻我們就是H也就是在全台在什麼大停電的時候我們家都不會停電為什麼呢我們就是受惠於旁邊有松山機場"},{"start":62.721,"end":64.683,"text":"所以5月8號當天其實附近並沒有停電可是我們的松子部卻停電8個小時這非常嚴重啊大家都知道整個的松山基地的指揮部的任務是整個的我們大台北地區我們的首都的國防"},{"start":82.896,"end":100.731,"text":"整個的國防任性不是會因此破功嗎大家都很擔心說如果真的有戰事的話松山機場第一個是不能夠被癱瘓的結果我們自己在沒有任何戰事的狀況之下自己停電而停電八個小時之久啊"},{"start":102.113,"end":130.007,"text":"不用等到人家來癱瘓我們我們自己就先行癱瘓好 所以從5月8號到現在已經這麼多天過去了我想請問一下部長能夠掌握到底為什麼會這樣的大停電然後我們未來會不會發生類似這樣的狀況這個會讓大家覺得我們不要說是電力任性而是整個的國防任性因此都破功所以部長您所掌握的狀況是如何呢"},{"start":130.447,"end":131.191,"text":"我們是不是先請常務長"},{"start":134.453,"end":162.64,"text":"喂 空軍事務部參謀長跟您做一個簡單的回報那這個部分首先針對現象的部分先跟您做一個回報那那一天因為連日的大雨所以說造成它的其中一個變電箱一個迴路的變電箱有受潮那短路的狀況造成停電那這個狀況因為它有四個迴路它在修這個迴路的時候另外三個迴路要先停下來這是現象那再跟您報告不會耽誤到戰備的狀況我們一般在停電都不會"},{"start":163.2,"end":184.632,"text":"不會單備到那個這樣的狀況那為什麼它要變成H呢對不對以後限電一起限電算了跟您報告我們一般戰備的這個設施分成三個部分第一個在設計的時候它就會分成行政區跟重要的設施我時間非常有限我想請問一下所以這次松子部的停電"},{"start":185.592,"end":204.137,"text":"無關於外面台電的它的電路而是我們自己內部的高壓變電的設備出現跳電那是因為沒有維修嗎?若一場大雨今日幾場大雨就會造成停電八小時這會不會是一個任性破口呢?"},{"start":204.597,"end":229.596,"text":"跟委員報告那一天的狀況發生之後戰備的發電機都有接替起來我們有三個保險的措施第一個就是剛剛跟您報告的我們會分作戰區跟行政區第二個重要的設施都有不斷電系統第三個重要的設施都有重要的發電機因為發電機的這個大小好我請問部長您可以接受剛才參謀長的說法嗎"},{"start":232.088,"end":238.72,"text":"我想主要還是在於相關的這些了解這個現象之後那我們應該要定期的來去檢視這些相關的一個"},{"start":245.599,"end":269.905,"text":"因為從5月8號到今天已經有一段時間了沒有 他們現在就要有一些綠點有提出報告給您了嗎是 他們都有相關的報告上來所以您有掌握另外有一個很重要的問題這個也牽涉到就是到時候今天大概沒有送進來就是有關於我們前進國造的這部分的預算的解凍的問題"},{"start":271.816,"end":281.163,"text":"請問一下本來4月份我們的海昆號應該進行海上測試結果延後延到5月5月現在已經5月中旬了那請問一下部長我們現在這個海昆號的海測的時間確定了嗎還是仍然在不確定中"},{"start":295.375,"end":311.731,"text":"我想我們現在應該是說我們會進入測試這個測試的一個最後的階段我們還是要確認達到海上測試的安全條件我們才會決定實際出海的一個時程所以現在到目前為止沒有辦法確定出海的時間是嗎"},{"start":313.918,"end":330.309,"text":"我沒有辦法給委員一個確切的一個意見那另外請教這個禁新聞就是這兩天有一個內部消息說為什麼會推遲我們的這個海昆號的海測主要是出現了主機故障這個是確實的嗎我想主機的一個都還在進行一個測試調校的過程當中所以確實有主機故障的狀況"},{"start":342.509,"end":357.497,"text":"主機應該是說我們還在進行一個系統的一個聯測我想還在進行這樣的一個調教我想備變之後應該就可以來進行海測所以這個報導沒有錯誤"},{"start":361.239,"end":387.162,"text":"應該是說我們主機本來就是要進行做一些聯測調校的一個過程那這些驗測我們一定要完全合乎標準了之後我們才會再進行所以顯然到現在沒有合乎標準所以有關於海測的部分當然我們必須要基於一個整個的安全至上因為我們海測是由我們海軍會支援去測試嗎"},{"start":388.689,"end":405.922,"text":"是吧 海軍會支援測試吧海軍支援測試是不是支援就是這個測試總要有人去測試啊那當然所以我們海軍會支援測試是那我想請問一下那相關的保險買了嗎"},{"start":411.544,"end":436.09,"text":"因為測試一定需要保險請問一下保險已經買了嗎然後是應該是國外的吧因為國內我想應該大概沒辦法承受這麼大的我們相關只要跟出海測試有相關的保險台船公司跟我們所有那邊有關的專案團隊的保險部分都已經做完完善的規劃所以有關於海昆號海測的部分保險的部分已經有完備是"},{"start":437.293,"end":437.68,"text":"好谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":378,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時41分）謝謝主席，請顧立雄部長還有空軍司令部參謀長。"],["主席：好，有請顧部長，有請參謀長。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長、參謀長，在今年5月8號其實發生了一個非常嚴重的事情，就是在松山機場的松指部竟然停電將近8個小時之久，在第一時間我看到媒體的報導，部長說都有掌握，我想部長恐怕掌握的是有停電的狀況。其實我自己本身就住在松山機場的旁邊，在全臺限電編組我們就是H組，也就是在全臺發生什麼大停電的時候，我們家都不會停電，為什麼呢？我們就是受惠於旁邊有松山機場，所以在5月8號當天其實附近並沒有停電，可是我們的松指部卻停電8個小時，這非常嚴重啊！大家都知道，整個松山基地指揮部的任務是我們大臺北整個地區、我們首都的國防，整個的國防韌性不是會因此破功嗎？大家都很擔心如果真的有戰事，松山機場第一個是不能夠被癱瘓的，結果我們自己在沒有任何戰事的狀況之下停電，而且停電8個小時之久啊！不用等到人家來癱瘓我們，我們自己就先行癱瘓了。從5月8號到現在已經過了這麼多天，我想請問一下部長，你能夠掌握到底為什麼會這樣大停電嗎？我們未來會不會發生類似這樣的狀況？因為這個會讓大家覺得我們不要說是電力韌性，而是整個國防韌性都會因此破功。部長，您所掌握的狀況是如何呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我們是不是先請參謀長回答？"],["李參謀長慶然：委員好，空軍司令部參謀長跟您做一個簡單的回報。首先針對現象的部分跟您做一個回報，那一天因為連日大雨造成其中一個迴路的變電箱受潮而短路的狀況，所以導致停電。因為總共有4個迴路，當他在修這個迴路的時候，另外3個迴路要先停下來，這是現象，那再跟您報告，這不會耽誤到戰備的狀況，我們一般在……"],["王委員鴻薇：停電都不會耽誤戰備的狀況，那為什麼它還要變成H組，對不對？以後就一起限電算了。"],["李參謀長慶然：跟委員報告，我們一般戰備的設施分成三個部分，第一個，在設計的時候就會分成行政區跟重要的設施……"],["王委員鴻薇：我的時間非常有限，我想請問一下，這次松指部的停電無關於外面台電的電路，而是松指部自己內部的高壓變電設備出現跳電？"],["李參謀長慶然：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，那是因為沒有維修嗎？如果近日的幾場大雨就會造成停電8小時，這會不會是一個韌性破口呢？"],["李參謀長慶然：跟委員報告，在那一天的狀況發生之後，戰備的發電機都有接替起來，我們有三個保險的措施，第一個就是剛剛跟您報告的，我們會分作戰區跟行政區；第二個，重要的設施都有不斷電系統；第三個，重要的設施都有重要的發電機，因為發電機的大小……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我請問部長，您可以接受剛才參謀長的說法嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想主要還是在於了解這個現象之後，那我們應該要定期的去檢視這些相關的……"],["王委員鴻薇：因為從5月8號發生到今天已經有一段時間了，照理說……"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，他們現在就要有一些律定……"],["王委員鴻薇：他們有提出報告給您了嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是，他們都有相關的報告送上來。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以您有掌握？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外有一個很重要的問題，今天大概沒有送進來，就是有關於我們潛艦國造這部分預算解凍的問題。請問一下，本來我們的海鯤號應該在4月份進行海上測試，結果延到5月，現在已經5月中旬了，請問一下部長，現在海鯤號海測的時間確定了嗎？還是仍然在不確定中？"],["顧部長立雄：我想現在應該是說我們會進入這個泊港測試的最後階段，我們還是要確認達到海上測試的安全條件，我們才會決定實際出海的時程。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以到目前為止還沒有辦法確定出海的時間嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我沒有辦法給委員一個確切的時間。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，另外，鏡新聞這兩天有一個內部消息，說我們海鯤號的海測推遲主要是因為出現了主機故障，這個是確實的嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想主機都還在進行測試、調校的過程當中。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以確實有主機故障的狀況？"],["顧部長立雄：應該是說我們還在進行系統的聯測，還在進行這樣的調校，我想備便之後應該就可以來進行海測。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以這個報導沒有錯誤？"],["顧部長立雄：應該是說我們的主機本來就是要進行一些聯測、調校的過程，這些驗測一定要完全合乎標準了之後，我們才會再進行。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以顯然到現在沒有合乎標準。有關於海測的部分，當然我們必須要基於整個安全至上，我們的海測是由海軍去支援測試，是吧？海軍會支援測試吧？"],["顧部長立雄：海軍……"],["王委員鴻薇：海軍支援測試，是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：支援？"],["王委員鴻薇：這個測試總要有人去測試。"],["顧部長立雄：那當然。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我們的海軍會支援測試？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：我想請問一下，相關的保險買了嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：有。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為測試一定需要保險，請問保險已經買了嗎？應該是國外的吧？因為國內大概沒有辦法承受這麼大的。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：只要跟出海測試有相關的保險，台船公司跟我們所有納編有關的專案團隊，在保險部分都已經做完完善的規劃，沒有問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以有關於海鯤號海測的部分，保險的部分已經有完備？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。","接下來有請黃國昌委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":40,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-13","speakers":["沈伯洋","陳俊宇","徐巧芯","羅美玲","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王定宇","林憶君","王鴻薇","黃國昌","陳永康","馬文君","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，國防部主管預算凍結案等54案","agenda_id":"1144901_00001"}}},{"id":"161334","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161334","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b0fddd32cc0279db4ebe85dec65e1b640ab8e08a4c8c91792b44aa4b1a787b5ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:50:50 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韓國它是以促進AI產業發展為導向結合資料開放跟創新的政策因此它法規的限制也相對鬆綁"},{"start":208.152,"end":227.349,"text":"那本席是認為在開放資料的這個概念下我們資料本地化與主權對台灣而言就變得相對的重要那尤其主委也常常提到主權AI這個概念那本商的質詢也有回應說資料儘量要放在國內以維繫我們國家的數位主權"},{"start":229.471,"end":233.836,"text":"那在不妨礙企業創新的精神下這個法規的設計又應兼顧開放跟保護那所以要請教次長是說那我國開放資料的政策未來會用什麼樣的模式跟架構去設計那我們要如何回應上一次公聽會當中很多專家學者都有強調的開源的這個概念就是open source這個概念"},{"start":252.985,"end":268.26,"text":"謝謝委員的指教委員說得非常好我們也在參考OECD它有四個分類從最封閉的Close Data到最開放的Open Data我們過去其實Open Data推得很不錯Open Data的意思是它完全不需要授權可是在AI發展的時代光是Open Data是不夠的"},{"start":268.86,"end":293.713,"text":"他需要能夠有share data就是有些這個資料要能夠共享甚至data reuse他有些資料能夠再利用那所以本部現在正在研擬一個資料創新利用的這個草案那希望能夠建立從這個open data一直到share data到data reuse的整個機制那也不光是政府部門現在這樣做那我們也能夠希望能夠參考這個歐盟也好或美國也好的機制能夠讓產業之間也有一個這個"},{"start":296.574,"end":319.401,"text":"資料交換或匯流的機制那這個部分我們會持續的推動立法同時我們也同時在跟這個政府爭取計劃我們希望透過計劃把相關的技術都能夠建立起來另外委員非常強調的這個主權的AI部分它最重要的是需要有一個符合台灣文化與人文化價值的資料庫那這個我們也在積極建立當中"},{"start":319.921,"end":337.094,"text":"OK那接下來想要跟次長請教說AI基本法需要很多的配套然後執法或相關的法律訂定就如同您剛所說的那像前面提到的資料開放利用跟促進資料創新應用那我覺得還有很多很多迫切的相關法規都需要來通盤檢視喔"},{"start":338.455,"end":360.109,"text":"譬如說政府應用我們要怎麼樣規範政府的部門來負責的應用AI或者民生相關AI的應用像是先進的醫療技術又或者是打詐阻詐這種方方面面那法規是否有相應對的調適所以請教次長最優先會調適的法規有哪幾大類那時程上會大概怎麼安排"},{"start":360.919,"end":380.278,"text":"我們大概會有以速發部的職責來講我們當然就是風險的控制大概是一個非常重要的因素那我們除了會這個盡速的來訂定這個AI的這個人工智慧的風險框架之外我們會特別著重在可能會發生高風險的這個領域能夠跟他們跟這個相關的部會能夠合作"},{"start":381.339,"end":396.657,"text":"儘快把法規能夠進行調制大概不外乎幾個部分智慧醫療智慧金融智慧交通以及通常會相關的跟媒體有關的AI的應用大概是我們會特別重視的重點那我們會跟儘快的跟這些部會來展開協商"},{"start":398.419,"end":412.535,"text":"好 那最後想跟您談談就是中國在數位極權主義的擴張之下那台灣要如何應對的問題那我有在去年預算審查的時候我有請教過吳主委"},{"start":413.336,"end":429.323,"text":"是否我們能針對中國的AI假訊息的攻擊有更多的提防進一步來研究如何用AI抵抗AI那國科會當時的回覆是說目前有研發這個數位訊息威脅情資共享框架"},{"start":430.183,"end":450.567,"text":"的這個核心技術或者是怎麼多來源訊息傳播分析器預警的機制以及利用AI跟深度學習等先進技術檢測跟識別AI的內容所以我要請教這個次長的是說那目前我國利用AI技術抵抗中國數位極權主義有什麼進一步的願景嗎那有沒有什麼有沒有可能在資安上透過跨國界的聯防去抵禦這中國的數位領域的侵略"},{"start":459.983,"end":475.668,"text":"首先在資安的方面的國際聯防是我們一直在做的那也會持續在推動那當然是結合跟我們裡面相近的國家因為資安其實是無國界的那這個我們會持續來進行國際的合作那委員所提到的以AI的技術來對抗AI那本部所這個"},{"start":477.008,"end":500.127,"text":"底下有一個重要的技術單位跟智庫叫做資安院那它其實在積極研發相關技術我們有一個非常重要的計畫就是以AI的方式來研究抵禦的方式大概希望能夠識別這個訊息的危險的來源以及能夠找出最常見的惡意城市那提供不光是速發部而已而是所有的部會甚至公司部門能夠有在情思分享的架構之下能夠知道這個"},{"start":501.008,"end":507.071,"text":"威脅的所在以及可能造成的風險那進一步來維護大家的職通訊安全"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":392,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（10時50分）謝謝主席，有請葉寧次長跟吳誠文主委。"],["主席：有請葉次長、吳主委備詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：林委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：主委好。首先，本席很清楚地知道AI基本法是要由數發部來主導、推動立法，本席相對比較有疑惑的是，在院版的草案還沒有出來的狀況之下，這部攸關我們AI發展的根本大法，可以由立委們在條文中來指定主管部會嗎？或者是現有委員的草案中，有額外來規劃行政院應設置的單位，或指定各級機關應編列預算等等，這個會不會跟行政院現在的規劃有一些相扞格的地方？是不是請主委先回答？"],["吳主任委員誠文：AI基本法我們制定的時候並沒有列主責的部會，但是卓院長已經指示，未來AI基本法如果通過施行，解釋法令的機關會是數發部。相關的主政、資料治理跟AI的運用、推動，包含民間產業等等，數發部會是最重要的部會，但是整個行政院所有的部會，在施政過程當中一定都會使用到AI工具，包含國科會的AI研發工作也都有關，所以其實是整個行政院會一起去推動。"],["林委員宜瑾：當然。次長，像我剛剛提問的就是，委員的草案中有額外規劃了一些行政院應設置的單位，或者是指定各級單位要編列預算等等，這部分跟行政院的規劃是不是有一些衝突？"],["葉次長寧：跟委員報告，剛才也有委員提到，過去大院通過大概11個基本法，絕大多數都沒有主管機關，基本法原則上是一個原則性的規定，如主委所講的，它不會特別對組織做規範，相同的，財源的部分大概也必須要審慎規劃……"],["林委員宜瑾：也不會在基本法內？"],["葉次長寧：當然會有一些希望能夠提供優惠的措施，但這些都必須要在其他法律落實，譬如租稅就一定要到稅法才能夠落實，這個我們在基本法大概都只會做原則性的規範，不會有組織方面的明確規範，但是院裡面交付我們來推動立法跟解釋法律，當然，我們就一定會遵照來執行。"],["林委員宜瑾：了解，所以很清楚，我們的AI政策確實跨足各部會。根據上一次公聽會各方專家學者的發言，許多人都有提到資料開放的重要性，這是一個策略上的規劃跟推動，本席認為可能需要主政的數發部加以重視。依據OECD的分類，資料開放可分成四個層級：從封閉資料到差別化存取，到非差別化存取，到開放資料，各國的規範程度不一。像歐盟就強調資料的治理跟隱私，雖然推動開放資料，可是它對於個資有非常嚴格的規範，亞洲國家像新加坡、韓國，是以促進AI產業發展為導向，結合資料開放跟創新的政策，因此它法規的限制也相對鬆綁。本席是認為在開放資料的這個概念下，資料本地化與主權，對臺灣而言就變得相對重要，尤其主委也常常提到主權AI這個概念，本席上次質詢也有回應說資料儘量要放在國內，以維繫我們國家的數位主權。在不妨礙企業創新的精神下，這個法規的設計又應兼顧開放跟保護，所以我要請教次長的是，我國開放資料的政策未來會用什麼樣的模式跟架構去設計？我們要如何回應上一次公聽會當中，很多專家學者都有強調的開源這個概念？就是open source這個概念。"],["葉次長寧：謝謝委員的指教，委員說得非常好，我們也在參考OECD的四個分類，從最封閉的closed data到最開放的open data，我們過去其實open data推得很不錯，open data的意思是它完全不需要授權，可是在AI發展的時代，光是open data是不夠的，它需要能夠share data，就是有些資料要能夠共享，甚至data reuse，它有些資料要能夠再利用，所以本部現在正在研擬一個資料創新利用的草案，希望能夠建立從open data一直到share data，再到data reuse的整個機制，不光是政府部門這樣做，不論是參考歐盟的機制也好，或美國的機制也好，我們也希望能夠讓產業之間有一個資料交換或匯流的機制，這個部分我們會持續推動立法，我們也同時在跟政府爭取計畫，希望透過計畫能夠把相關的技術都建立起來。另外，委員非常強調的主權AI部分，它最重要是需要有一個符合臺灣文化、語言文化價值的資料庫，這個我們也在積極建立當中。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK。接下來想要跟次長請教，AI基本法需要很多的配套，子法或相關的法律訂定，就如同您剛剛所說的，像前面提到的資料開放利用，跟促進資料創新應用，我覺得還有很多、很多迫切的相關法規都需要來通盤檢視，譬如政府應用，我們要怎麼樣規範政府部門負責地應用AI，或者民生相關AI的應用，像是先進的醫療技術，又或者是打詐、阻詐這些方方面面，法規是否有相應對的調適？所以請教次長，最優先會調適的法規有哪幾大類？時程上大概會怎麼安排？"],["葉次長寧：以數發部的職責來講，當然，風險的控制大概是一個非常重要的因素，我們除了會儘速地來訂定AI人工智慧的風險框架之外，我們會特別著重在可能發生高風險的領域，跟相關的部會合作，儘快把法規進行調適，大概不外乎幾個部分，像智慧醫療、智慧金融、智慧交通以及跟通傳會相關的，跟媒體有關的AI應用，大概是我們會特別重視的點，我們會儘快地跟這些部會來展開協商。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，最後想跟您談談，在中國數位極權主義的擴張之下，臺灣要如何應對的問題，因為我在去年預算審查的時候有請教過吳主委，我們是否能針對中國的AI假訊息攻擊，有更多的提防，並且進一步來研究如何用AI抵抗AI。國科會當時的回復是，目前有研發數位訊息威脅情資共享框架的核心技術，或者是多來源訊息傳播分析暨預警的機制，以及利用AI跟深度學習等先進技術來檢測跟識別AI的內容。所以我要請教次長的是，目前我國利用AI技術抵抗中國數位極權主義，有什麼進一步的願景嗎？有沒有可能在資安上透過跨國界的聯防，去抵禦中國數位領域的侵略？"],["葉次長寧：首先，資安方面的國際聯防是我們一直在做的，也會持續推動，結合跟我們理念相近的國家，因為資安其實是無國界的，這個我們會持續來進行國際的合作。委員所提到的，以AI的技術來對抗AI，本部底下有一個重要的技術單位跟智庫，叫做資安院，它其實有在積極研發相關的技術，我們有一個非常重要的計畫，就是以AI的方式來研究抵禦的方式，希望能夠識別這個訊息的危險來源，以及能夠找出最常見的惡意程式，不光是提供數發部而已，而是所有的部會，甚至公司部門，都能夠在情資分享的架構之下知道威脅所在，以及可能造成的風險，進一步來維護大家的資通訊安全。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝次長，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾召委的質詢，官員請回座。","接下來請葉元之委員，對不起，不好意思，葉元之委員，因為今天列席同仁很多，我們先休息10分鐘，好不好？我們剛剛有稍微宣告過了，謝謝。我們休息10分鐘，不好意思。","休息（10時59分）","繼續開會（11時9分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","接下來有請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,23-1","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳宗憲","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","柯志恩","李昆澤","林俊憲","陳素月","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","葉元之","蔡其昌","劉書彬","萬美玲","張雅琳","郭昱晴","何欣純","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","游顥","徐富癸","吳沛憶","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","范雲","林沛祥","邱若華","廖先翔","許宇甄","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；二、審查委員邱若華等 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差不多一億一到一億三對不對 應該差不多啦根據他的風機的大小好 他說一個颱風掃下去就差不多會有損壞二成十吧"},{"start":126.806,"end":144.14,"text":"那修一支好幾千萬所以那個是很CP值很高的好啦 那這個海上的更誇張你知道一支多少錢嗎一支14億14億喔要採幾支 本來要採幾支本來要採幾千支喔有這麼多嗎"},{"start":153.968,"end":159.669,"text":"我每次聽到這個都背脊發涼這傢俬那是溫室的,我們的傢俬那是溫室的德國人也來,美國人也來我跟你們講,一斤十四億,一千隻,天文數字啊那他的利息,他是貸款嘛那我們的行庫用低利貸給他嘛那他的投資報酬率一定是超過他的銀行貸款有利潤,他才繼續幹嘛"},{"start":183.325,"end":207.614,"text":"那現在聽說跑掉了,那跑掉是好事還是壞事?博定你說,你怎麼說?現在其實第一個是說,的確台灣有幾家他們也有來找我們環境部抱怨,抱怨了一些事情,當然因為當時的開發,不過這個是經濟部的工作,還是你們要回答?"},{"start":210.031,"end":220.731,"text":"我記得以前第一次簽約的一度電視好像五塊七啊多少嘛後來就降到五塊降到四塊多那降到四塊多你就不合啊"},{"start":221.414,"end":241.551,"text":"沒有他現在他要自己直接找買主自己找買主那這個耗損率應該很高現在有幾隻在做跟委員報告一樣現在大概379隻那我目前的裝置容量大概3G左右那到2025年大概是5點多G那初估應該是500到600隻不會到1000隻因為這個"},{"start":246.375,"end":271.045,"text":"裝置容量會隨著這個技術的精進它的容量單次的容量會越來越大所以這個支數呢會變比較小那再者跟委員報告這個我們剛好剛建好的這幾座風機都非常順利 三百多支對都非常順利的運轉中颱風來不怕目前經歷了幾次颱風跟地震都沒有問題而且是直接掃過去的"},{"start":272.581,"end":295.959,"text":"因為我不太記得,大概是前年去年都有這樣台風來的時候,他是把它關掉,還是自己會關?他超過一個風速,差不多中度台風等級,他就會鎖在那邊鎖住,保護他自己所以就不太容易被吹斷,這個一吹斷就完蛋了這個事情要修理啦,這一支修理,我看一支14億,修理我看要五六億"},{"start":299.102,"end":321.281,"text":"就是委員這邊跟您報告一下就是我們當初在推動離岸風電的時候其實針對台灣特殊的狀況就是颱風跟地震的部分我們有請標檢局特別製作了一個標準那就是在台灣設的風機都要符合這個標準才能設所以呢基本上我們的風機的規格其實比歐洲"},{"start":321.943,"end":329.608,"text":"再多延一點點然後再來就是這個業者的部分目前就是我們領選到的業者就是"},{"start":330.808,"end":356.613,"text":"離岸封建是先示範潛力然後再區塊嘛到目前為止都是潛力的長子的業者那目前的業者都很順利的在往前走那我們希望在這個預定潛力長子的時間都可以完成那我們也真的很順利在走那再稍稍的這個宣傳一下我們去年的風機累積的裝置量其實是全世界第五"},{"start":357.318,"end":360.544,"text":"你講話聽到沒有?你講話聽到沒有?你講話聽到沒有?你講話聽到沒有?"},{"start":363.585,"end":389.355,"text":"靠近一點靠近一點好因為我看到的風機我到處都有去看漢堡 德國 北邊 北海內蒙古我們都去看了我們也是有在做功課的那個是風長穩定 緯度高沒有颱風地震也相對少的地方他們的風力發電的成本成本很低"},{"start":392.856,"end":398.481,"text":"都用不完那我們這邊東北季風台灣海峽又淺風又急然後颱風又多"},{"start":404.547,"end":422.096,"text":"這個採風機那麼貴 受得了嗎我一直到現在 還有這個很大大的疑問那你們的目標是500隻 1000隻還是到現在300多 增加到500多這樣很挺外商跑掉了 現在變成中鋼 台電自己在賣是做得到嗎"},{"start":427.638,"end":430.692,"text":"我們很驚訝,很害怕,害怕到排名二十,排到大家都..."},{"start":434.388,"end":459.679,"text":"跟委員報告就是我們潛力場直到明年之前的這個廠商基本上呢廠商都沒有跑掉而且都在進行中那我們台電的案場也在施工中目前台電有兩個案場第一個案場是示範案場他其實已經完工已經在運轉了那第二個案場是潛力場直目前在施工中那目標是今年會完工"},{"start":460.299,"end":465.643,"text":"好,謝謝,第二個我要請問部長,我們現在連旗的農民,農民以前是用惡佛、惡力交換、惡佛勢力交換等等,那就是汙染,後來就改成現在的R124還是R125?"},{"start":485.619,"end":504.328,"text":"因為二氧化合物以前是說它不會分解,然後它可以飄到大氣層,會把臭氧層都燒掉,打破洞對不對?佛力碳化物所以現在改成這個就沒問題了嗎?R14對R14還是R什麼?R134R14吧,多少?R14吧"},{"start":512.813,"end":533.13,"text":"沒有 浮氯碳化物來來來現在我們就是跟委員報告浮氯碳化物我們就是依照蒙特樓議定書管制然後他有現用逐步到禁用那他會用這個HFC來取代那我們也會依蒙特樓議定書的時程來管制好那再來今天要特別提那個"},{"start":534.778,"end":557.883,"text":"PFAS跟poly-fluoroalkyl substance這個在醫界是聽到都要嚇死的因為以前都疾病這個東西已經用一段時間了已經到處都摻這個東西那怎麼今年去年才開始又熱起來是什麼原因 柏定"},{"start":558.943,"end":588.209,"text":"是有人想要賺這條錢還是沒有這個其實在2008年就施德克某公約就有了啦2008年我們其實稍微慢一點點但是其實就很努力的去希望有管制所以去年我們就抱怨了提出一個管制的一個方案挂部會一個計畫啦所以的確是有管制公告來進行那管制因為這個東西好像施到人體裡面差不多一兩年會排泄嘛"},{"start":588.849,"end":602.025,"text":"那不容易排出那排泄之後在大環境中是不太容易分解嘛我經常去看我去培養的細菌,譬如益生菌或是乳酸菌我就把它分解可以分解塑膠,可以分解水,這樣"},{"start":608.737,"end":629.68,"text":"我在想應該有可能有一些硫化物的細菌它是可以分解無積物的喔所以這道都叫新生物學加下去不然的話這個是無解嘛那現在它是佛皆嘆嘛就是我們講的會產生這些毒物啊我們等一下吃便當那個便當裡面有一陣薄膜"},{"start":630.782,"end":650.668,"text":"那個就是這種東東的,不然的話便當坐在那裡就燙了,那一定沒辦法給它解開那解開,你便當放在那裡,我們吃飽,我吃,劉建國早晚也吃,吃吃之後吞吞下去,那如果放久了,信使者跑到食物裡面更多,我也不知道,沒人去檢查,吃吃下去,會死就死,不會死就死"},{"start":657.895,"end":680.436,"text":"所以你這什麼是要安保物不是 根本報告 其實公約有禁用的物質像PFOA PFOA是那些它就不能用到這個食品保采區所以國內我們也都是按照這樣來講所以現在如果有的部分是是沒有禁用的物質放進去的但是因為PFS是一個很大的家族有些已經開始禁用了 有些還沒有"},{"start":681.436,"end":702.552,"text":"我跟你講喔,我朋友在做晶片的,他們說這種東西,他佛器接,你看,接出來就是什麼咚咚的,我們那個手機上面一層薄膜那個是非常非常非常貴的,全世界四家工廠在做,台灣根本不會做,所以那種東西就是晶片在用的"},{"start":703.853,"end":731.393,"text":"對不對 沒錯吧那那個有沒有毒性 那當然有啊所以這個科技的進步是很可怕的那我們環境部在跟著後面跑那歐盟講常常看到東西就訂了一大堆那我們就跟著走我們永遠都在跟著後面跑啦那科技界一直在發展我們這個也沒辦法所以你現在訂這個我們不可以贏我們現在每天都在吃在贏"},{"start":732.634,"end":750.112,"text":"那有什麼辦法跟委員報告就是不能用的我們禁掉以後他就不會用進去那當然他會有替代產品像我們碳比如說九個碳八個碳慢慢管下來管到六嘛四個碳就還沒有列管因為他在這個危害的分析方面還"},{"start":750.632,"end":774.517,"text":"那我們那個便當那個膜那個膜也不是都只做這個因為他還有其他的塑膠膜這些是可以在食品等級可以用的那部分是沒有問題啦但是對於我們已經禁用的話就不能再去用在這邊好那最後的問題最後是一個剛剛那個圖前期很多委員都問那個綠林綠林你現在春天這麼年輕啊那是要幹什麼"},{"start":777.056,"end":783.82,"text":"他很多工作,現在兩萬兩千個工作機會,等著大家去工作是要去輔導,還是要抓人?沒有啦,這個是幫助大家走到未來的工作機會啦剛剛那個圖圈吉說的,圖委員說的勞工,比較勞的這個我們會再跟勞動部來討論想辦法"},{"start":802.031,"end":812.721,"text":"你不要找一些高階的,有程度高,一般來就比較好找套路啊,現在老的比較多,要訓練到有什麼初級的,還可以到中級,這樣可以改觀我們的就業啊,這是比較重要吧"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":751,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時40分）謝謝召委。我們請彭部長，台電有來嗎？"],["主席：台電沒有，經濟部有來。"],["彭部長啓明：蘇委員早。"],["蘇委員清泉：經濟部鄒副署長。"],["主席：鄒副署長。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長還有經濟部，我今天請教你們四件事情，第一件事是海上的大風車如火如荼，我有個朋友是船長，是在鑽井的，我的認知如果不對的話你幫我糾正，陸上的風車現在差不多有四百多支嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：陸上大概兩百支左右。"],["蘇委員清泉：有幾支壞掉？幾支是好的？我去彰濱工業區一大堆都壞掉了……"],["彭部長啓明：請能源署回答。"],["鄭副組長如閔：委員好。海上風機目前的狀況都有在持續運轉中。"],["蘇委員清泉：都有在維修？我說兩百多支有幾支壞掉的啦？"],["鄭副組長如閔：陸域風機的話，因為有些確實……有風向……還有持續運轉的部分，運轉的狀況我們可能需要再清點一下再給委員。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為台電的人跟我講1支的成本一億多，差不多1億1到1億3啦，對不對？應該差不多啦！"],["鄭副組長如閔：要根據風機的大小，因為……"],["蘇委員清泉：好，看大小支啦！他說一個颱風掃下去就差不多會損壞20%、30%，修1支好幾千萬，所以CP值很低耶！好，那海上的更誇張，你知道1支多少錢嗎？1支14億，是14億喔！本來要擺幾支？本來要擺幾千支耶！有這麼多嗎？我每一次聽到這個都背脊發涼，子孫就「穩死」的啊，我們的子孫「穩死」的！德國人也來、美國人也來，我跟你說如果1支14億，1,000支是天文數字啦！它是貸款嘛，我們的行庫用低利貸給它，那它的投資報酬率一定是超過它銀行貸款之類的，有利潤它才繼續幹嘛，現在聽說跑掉了，跑掉是好事還是壞事？部長，你說，你好好說喔，不要亂說喔！"],["彭部長啓明：其實第一個，的確臺灣有幾家他們也有來找我們環境部抱怨啦，抱怨一些事情，當然，因為當時的開發……不過這個是經濟部的工作啦！還是經濟部要回答？"],["鄭副組長如閔：委員，不好意思……"],["蘇委員清泉：我記得以前第一次簽約的1度電好像是5塊7還是多少，後來就降到5塊、降到四塊多，但降到四塊多，他們就不划算了。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，它現在要自己直接找買主……"],["蘇委員清泉：自己去找買主？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個耗損率應該也很高喔！現在有幾支在做了？"],["鄭副組長如閔：跟委員報告一下，現在大概379支，我們目前的裝置容量大概3G左右，到2025年大概是五點多G，預估應該是500到600支，不會到1,000支，因為裝置容量會隨著技術的精進它單支的容量會越來越大，所以支數會變比較少。再者，我們剛剛建好的這幾座風機都非常順利……"],["蘇委員清泉：三百多支？"],["鄭副組長如閔：對，都非常順利……"],["蘇委員清泉：都在run了？"],["鄭副組長如閔：非常順利的運轉中。"],["蘇委員清泉：颱風來不怕？"],["鄭副組長如閔：目前經歷了幾次颱風跟地震都沒有問題，而且是直接掃過去的，我不太記得……大概是前年、去年都有這樣過。"],["蘇委員清泉：颱風來的時候是把它關掉？還是自己會關？"],["彭部長啓明：它超過一個風速，差不多中度颱風等級就會鎖在那邊，不會轉……"],["蘇委員清泉：就鎖住？"],["彭部長啓明：鎖住，保護它自己。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以就不太容易被吹斷，這個吹斷就完蛋了啊！這要怎麼修理啦？1支14億，我看修理要5、6億？"],["鄭副組長如閔：我們當初在推動離岸風電的時候，其實針對臺灣特殊的狀況颱風跟地震的部分，我們有請標檢局特別製作了一個標準，在臺灣設的風機都要符合這個標準才能設，所以基本上我們風機的規格其實比歐洲再多嚴一點點。再來業者的部分，我們遴選到的業者，就是離岸風電是先示範、次潛力然後再區塊，到目前為止都是潛力場址的業者，目前的業者都很順利的在往前走。我們希望在預定潛力場址的時間都可以完成，我們也真的很順利在走，再稍微小小的宣傳一下，我們去年風機累積的裝機量其實是全世界第五。"],["蘇委員清泉：你說的我都聽不懂耶，你好像螞蟻在講話。"],["彭部長啓明：要靠近一點。"],["鄭副組長如閔：對不起。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，我到處去看風機，漢堡、德國北海、內蒙古，我們都去看了，我們是有在做功課的，那個是風場穩定、緯度高、沒有颱風、地震也相對少的地方，他們風力發電的成本很低、都用不完，但我們這邊東北季風，臺灣海峽又淺、風又急，然後颱風又多，擺風機又這麼貴，受得了嗎？我一直到現在還有大大的疑問。你們目標是500支？1,000支？還是現在三百多增加到五百多就喊停？外商跑掉了，現在變成中鋼、台電自己在處理，是做得起來嗎？我們很懷疑，很怕子孫負擔利息到以後大家都……好像馬關條約耶！"],["鄭副組長如閔：跟委員報告，我們潛力場址到明年之前的廠商，基本上廠商都沒有跑掉，而且都在進行中，我們台電的案場也在施工中，目前台電有兩個案場，第一個案場是示範案場，它其實已經完工在運轉了；第二個案場是潛力場址，目前在施工中，目標是今年會完工。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，OK，謝謝。第二個，我要請問部長，你們請回。我們現在冷氣的冷煤，冷煤以前是用二氟二氯甲烷等等，那就是污染，後來就改成現在的R-124還是R-125？二氟二氯甲烷以前是說它不會分解，然後可以飄到大氣層，會把臭氧層都燒掉、打破洞，對不對？有這個……"],["彭部長啓明：氟氯碳化物。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以現在改成這個就沒問題了嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對，R-14……"],["蘇委員清泉：是R-14還是R-134？"],["彭部長啓明：R-14吧？氟氯碳化物，來。"],["郭副司長孟芸：跟委員報告，氟氯碳化物我們就是依照蒙特婁議定書管制，它有逐步限用到禁用，會用HFC來取代，我們也會依蒙特婁議定書的時程來管制。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，再來，今天要特別提PFAS（Per-and polyfluoroalkyl substances），這個在醫界聽到是都快嚇死的，會引起很多疾病。"],["彭部長啓明：很毒。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，這個東西已經用一段時間了，已經到處都摻這個東西，怎麼今年、去年才開始又熱起來？部長，是什麼原因？是有人想要賺這筆錢還是……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，這個其實在2008年斯德哥爾摩公約就有了啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：2008年？"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們其實稍微慢一點點，但是就很努力的希望有管制，所以去年我們報院提出一個管制的方案，一個跨部會的計畫啦，所以的確是有管制公告來進行。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為這個東西好像吃到人體裡面差不多一、兩年會排泄嘛……"],["謝署長燕儒：不容易排出！"],["蘇委員清泉：排泄之後在大環境中是不太容易分解嘛！部長，我建議有沒有辦法去培養細菌，看益生菌還是乳酸菌，有辦法把它分解，可以分解塑膠、可以分解這個，我在想應該有可能，有一些硫化物的細菌它是可以分解無機物喔！所以這個要請生物學家去研究，不然這個是無解嘛！現在它是氟接碳，就是我們講的會產生這些毒物，我們等一下吃便當，那個便當裡面有一層薄膜，那個就是這種東西耶！不然便當是紙的馬上就溼掉了啊，那層膜就把它隔開來，現在你便當放在那邊，我們扒來吃、劉建國召委也吃，吃完吞下去，如果放越久是不是跑到食物裡面更多？我也不知道耶！也沒人在測這個，吃下去會死就死，沒死就算了，部長，所以你們現在是要怎麼搞？"],["謝署長燕儒：不是，跟委員報告，其實公約有禁用的物質，像PFOA、PFOS那些就不能用到食品包材去，所以國內我們也都是按照這樣來講，現在如果有的部分是沒有禁用的物質放進去的，但是因為PFAS是一個很大的家族，有些已經開始禁用了，有些還沒有。"],["蘇委員清泉：我跟你講，我朋友在做晶片的，他們說這種東西用氟去接矽利康，接出來就是什麼東西呢？是我們手機上面一層薄膜。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["謝署長燕儒：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：那個是非常、非常、非常貴的，全世界才4家工廠在做，臺灣根本也不會做，所以那種東西就是晶片在用的，對不對，沒錯吧？"],["謝署長燕儒：是，沒錯。"],["蘇委員清泉：那個有沒有毒性？當然有啊！"],["謝署長燕儒：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以科技的進步是很可怕的，我們環境部就跟著後面跑，歐盟常常看到東西就訂了一大堆，那我們就跟著走，我們永遠都跟著在後面跑啦，科技界一直在發展，我們這也沒辦法。所以你現在訂這個說不能用，我們現在每天都在吃、在用，有什麼辦法？"],["謝署長燕儒：跟委員報告，不能用的我們禁掉以後它就不會被用進去，當然它會有替代產品，像我們碳，比如說9個碳、8個碳，慢慢管下來管到6嘛！像4個碳這些都還沒有列管，因為它在危害的分析方面還沒有……"],["蘇委員清泉：我們便當那個膜……"],["謝署長燕儒：那個膜也不是都只做這個啦，因為還有其他的塑膠膜這些，是可以在食品等級用的，那部分是沒有問題啦，但是對於我們已經禁用的，就不能再去用在這邊。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，最後，剛剛涂權吉還有很多委員都問綠領，你現在培養這些年輕人是要做什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：他很多工作機會，現在2萬2,000個工作機會等著大家去工作啊！"],["蘇委員清泉：是要去輔導，還是要去抓人？有要開單嗎？要修理人？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有啦、沒有啦，這個是幫助大家找到未來的工作機會啦！當然，剛剛涂權吉委員說的比較老的勞工，這個我們會再跟勞動部來討論、想辦法。"],["蘇委員清泉：對啦，你不要找一些高階的、程度高，他本來就很好找工作啊，但這些老的、比較低層的，你們要給他訓練到最少初級或中級的，這樣才有辦法解決我們的就業啊！"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["蘇委員清泉：這是比較重要的嘛！好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。綠領未來就是綠巨人啦，休息10分鐘。","休息（10時53分）","繼續開會（11時5分）"],["主席：休息時間到，我們繼續開會。","接下來請林淑芬委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林淑芬","王正旭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","陳培瑜","楊曜","盧縣一","蔡易餘","廖偉翔"],"page_start":369,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、勞動部及教育部就「我國推動綠色轉型政策，相關人才培育發展\n與產業政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟\n部、農業部及教育部就「全氟及多氟烷基物質(PFAS)管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化\n物相關管理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢【專題報告綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1145001_00015"}}},{"id":"161332","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161332","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b01013ed7b5a60f6da35373469a84e2c35433fb1cebf983d8d25b08c110ea79ab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:38:20 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主長你的依據是什麼"},{"start":291.899,"end":316.493,"text":"我代表農業部我來講你講 依據是什麼所有問號獎勵我們會根據漁種 根據它的外銷量它有非常多的一個複雜因素去算那你在這裡給我解釋一下嘛你的因素是什麼我告訴你 第一個吳國瑜的整體的外銷量跟鬼頭島的外銷量它在美國的占比的比例也要計算那鬼頭島的美國占比是多少鬼頭島的美國占比是70%然後咧"},{"start":319.92,"end":330.988,"text":"吳國瑜是79%然後鬼頭刀的單價跟吳國瑜的單價還有他外交形勢還有外交數量我現在就把單價給你看啊他們70跟79有差那麼多嗎我現在就告訴你說你如果有算錯你要認你要好好的調整你要滾動式的調整我今天是提醒你我今天不是來跟你吵架的喔我已經承諾了我們會滾動檢討"},{"start":343.737,"end":346.12,"text":"那你就說嘛 文道檢討是怎麼檢討你如果說真的依據 你講出來你講出來你能說服我 我也覺得OK但是你現在提的 沒有一項能夠說服我嘛那 下一個"},{"start":360.629,"end":371.555,"text":"所以呢 你要滾動式檢討 我覺得是贊成的那也許要趕快 不是說 現在大家都傻住了傻住說 我吳國瑜的魚片比鬼頭刀的魚片 比鱸魚的魚片貴結果你給我補助 人家補助10元 19元 你補助他5元"},{"start":380.1,"end":383.723,"text":"我必須要講政府的補助很重要對於產業來說就像是打強心針一樣但強心針不能亂打打對了是救命 打錯了反而出事所以我希望說農業部不要輕忽這個訊號務必要儘快的修正那另外一個在針對於補助對象的問題上一次"},{"start":405.652,"end":409.656,"text":"您到雲林來 跟我們所有的漁業業者做一個座談 您記得嗎"},{"start":412.551,"end":426.856,"text":"我當然記得是那那個時候就漁民跟你反映說你補助的對象是不是也可以把合作社納入申請範圍在現場部長就直接答應說合作社會納入補助範圍但是在公告內容當中你可以看你自己看你的公告內容你的公告內容對象僅限於雲嘉南高屏宜東地區的漁會排除合作社"},{"start":442.242,"end":447.667,"text":"所以呢我也很難理解說當時的承諾為什麼沒有落實為什麼我們這個漁業署沒有落實部長的一個指示這個是當場喔當場是有這麼多人在現場部長親自指示的是哪一個環節出了問題呢"},{"start":461.955,"end":475.154,"text":"我跟委員說明我們對於合作社的協助包括金融支持、產業支持跟後面的外交獎勵都會有除了冷鏈設施的一個補助我們現在就是以貴為主"},{"start":476.721,"end":485.767,"text":"你在現場怎麼不這樣講沒有 那是細節那你現在全部人都以為你講的是冷鏈啊所以你現在是要告訴我說你在現場講錯了冷鏈沒有在裡面我沒有講錯齁因為在現場我們講的是整個漁業的產業知識但是我也跟委員講合作社我們會再考慮他的冷鏈是不是可以來現場我們第一階段是用漁會然後第二階段"},{"start":502.658,"end":516.358,"text":"漁會很好很認真很照顧漁民我覺得你把漁會納在裡面是對的合作社的部分我們也會來考慮但是合作社他一定要跟前端的漁民有一些契制當然啦你如果有一些規劃有一些規範"},{"start":518.621,"end":532.434,"text":"我們會有規範有些規定這都合理對但是你不能完全把它排除在內對 我有一個約族講針對合作社的冷鏈措施不是餘力都不行一定是要有一個嚴謹的規範包括它跟前端的移民是 這個我完全認同你要有嚴格的規範"},{"start":536.397,"end":550.948,"text":"要有一定的規範 這樣大家有理有據 可以來執行 可以來落實不要說你完全沒在做 你也要來申請 這個是不合理的那請部長跟署長要盡快的因為這些合作社也說 欸 部長那天來的工料好好怎麼會外面回去 他的署也沒有要找部長能量的設備裡面也沒有 包括"},{"start":561.095,"end":585.117,"text":"這會令業者產生懷疑我們的所有的漁業的這些漁民都懷疑說為什麼部長說的不算我們持續會跟漁民在溝通他們應該了解好那當然這一點我也希望說部長盡快的來了解好不好好那其實我還要再問那個就是經濟部次長好不好謝謝何市長"},{"start":590.342,"end":610.609,"text":"次長 針對這個美國關稅的風波行政院本來提出要預註880億給這個企業應急不過行政院後來又宣布說這一次的特別條例要調漲是4100億喔那可以請次長說明一下這一筆預算大增4.65倍的原因嗎還有經濟部對於未來這筆預算的撥話"},{"start":615.77,"end":635.246,"text":"跟我們報告那我想這個裡面930億的部分是用在支持我們產業還有一些勞工安定的就業的這個部分還有農業發展的部分那其他的部分我想都是分別在各個部分裡面其他的部分我幫你講好了"},{"start":635.706,"end":641.751,"text":"國土安全任性1500億包括興建巡防建庭等照顧民生1670億其中撥補台電1000億然後老屋修繕50億實際上產業界可以受惠的部分只有占全部的23%左右請問次長這一次預算是打著關稅危機的名義卻撥出不到四分之一給產業您認為這樣合理嗎"},{"start":663.739,"end":678.421,"text":"跟文報告 其實這一次我們是利用整個稅收超生的這個部分那除了面對這個我就問你合不合理嘛 你身為經濟部的次長你覺得合理嗎 我覺得這是整個"},{"start":679.102,"end":696.832,"text":"國家的政策我們是要強化國家的這個產業韌性基本上產業韌性你就只有23%怎麼增加產業韌性就是行政院提的方案挹注產業的部分一定大力支持但其他的部分是不是應該回歸到常態預算來審議而不是用這種包裹式的特別條例來討論"},{"start":702.995,"end":727.01,"text":"尤其這些包山包海的項目全部都由你經濟部來主管你經濟部難道不會覺得莫名其妙角色錯置嗎跟委員報告其實我們在條例裡面有寫到一個條文就是其實相關的這些預算的編列還是要回到各個部會那相關的管考機制還是要回到各個部會所以就是用你來包裝而已啊你這樣一講不就是用你來包裝嗎"},{"start":731.172,"end":736.095,"text":"其實我們這整個特別條例是為了要因應基本上這樣子的特別預算真的稱得上是全民共度難關的配套措施嗎我在這裡補充一點給我們今天所有列席的這些各鋪會來聽一下"},{"start":750.865,"end":766.361,"text":"其實日本在面對這個美國關稅衝擊國內物價高漲的壓力的時候自民黨跟公民黨所組成的這個執政聯盟他也提出普發現金政策5萬日幣一個人那次算來說的話如果"},{"start":768.623,"end":775.786,"text":"發給他的全民可以抬高日本的GDP 0.25%這證明普發現金不是特例而是在面對經濟壓力時很多國家都會採取的可行政策因此本席在這裡呼籲不分朝野支持將部分的特別預算用於普發現金讓這個預算不只是舊產業"},{"start":793.334,"end":798.071,"text":"也能夠真正降低人民的經濟壓力跟回應社會的期待謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":712,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（10時38分）主席好。主席，我想請農業部陳部長。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長早。我看到農業部這一次因應美國關稅所提出的措施，不同品項的補助金額落差相當大，目前公告的標準，鱸魚每公斤是補助10元，鬼頭刀是19元，但是吳郭魚只有5元，請問這樣的金額差異是依據什麼資料來訂定的？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個跟委員說明，我們外銷獎勵的補助，每公斤的價位會跟產品本身的價值還有目前關稅的比率，我們目前估的都是10%的關稅，因為未來的關稅是不確定性，而10%的關稅也不一定全部是我們國內自己付，它會跟對方去拆帳……"],["張委員嘉郡：可能拆帳會不……"],["陳部長駿季：然後還有非常多的因素在調整，所以以吳郭魚來講，如果全魚是每公斤5塊，其實是已經超過二分之一，但是以魚片來講，是比二分之一還低，所以我們是用……"],["張委員嘉郡：這就是本席想要跟您討論的，因為本席在今天質詢之前已經有問過農業部，他們給我的訊息就是這樣的補助比率，以吳郭魚為例，如果是全魚就已經占了二分之一等等，但是本席仔細看了一下這整個資料，發現假設用這樣來推論的話，鱸魚、鬼頭刀的出口價格應該是吳郭魚出口價格的2至4倍才對，但事實上完全不是這樣啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，外銷獎勵只是獎勵性質，不是實質補貼它的關稅成本，這是第一個觀念要說明的。"],["張委員嘉郡：我再把我的這些數據給部長看一下，依據中華民國養殖漁業協會3月的出口統計資料顯示，吳郭魚切片每公斤是363.8元，冷凍吳郭魚整條每公斤是85.2元，鱸魚片每公斤是258.9元，鱸魚的條凍是128.3元，這樣就不合理啦！所以本席強烈懷疑，你們當初在算吳郭魚的時候是用吳郭魚的條凍去算，而不是用吳郭魚的魚片去算，這一點我覺得有一點點問題存在，是不是請部長可以仔細了解一下？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的提醒，我們所有的外銷獎勵會做滾動檢討，這第一個。第二個，我還是再次說明，我們的外銷獎勵是一個獎勵性質，而不是……"],["張委員嘉郡：是獎勵性質，但你不能懲罰啊！怎麼會鬼頭刀19元，然後吳郭魚5元，這不是獎勵……"],["陳部長駿季：只要是獎勵的就不是懲罰。"],["張委員嘉郡：這不是獎勵耶，這等於是懲罰養吳郭魚的嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：懲罰是我收他的錢才叫懲罰，我獎勵怎麼會是懲罰呢？"],["張委員嘉郡：我的意思是說，如果要訂獎勵金額，是不是要有一點依據？我這裡也有業者提供的出口報價單，出口美國的吳郭魚切片每公斤是10.36美元到10.69美元，折算臺幣也都是三百多元，這個價格其實跟養殖協會所提供的統計數字吻合，既然價格更高，關稅的衝擊損失應該更大，為什麼補助卻是最少呢？是不是有點不大合理呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我剛才已經說了，相關的外銷獎勵，我們會滾動檢討，但是我……"],["張委員嘉郡：但是我現在就請教部長……"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員說明……"],["張委員嘉郡：假設是算錯了、假設是拿錯數據了，是不是要儘快地……我現在就問你，假設是算錯或是拿錯數據，你是不是……"],["陳部長駿季：我相信不會有算錯這件事情，因為委員你……"],["張委員嘉郡：你是用什麼依據說鬼頭刀19元，然後吳郭魚5元？"],["陳部長駿季：委員你講的是說一個產品本身……"],["張委員嘉郡：你的依據是什麼？署長，你的依據是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我代表農業部，我來講。"],["張委員嘉郡：你講，依據是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：所有的外銷獎勵，我們會根據魚種、根據它的外銷量，有非常多複雜因素去算的，而不是用單純的……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，那你在這裡跟我解釋一下嘛！你的因素是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我告訴你，第一個，吳郭魚整體的外銷量跟鬼頭刀的外銷量，它在美國占的比率也要計算……"],["張委員嘉郡：那鬼頭刀的美國占比是多少？"],["陳部長駿季：鬼頭刀的美國占比是70%。"],["張委員嘉郡：然後咧？"],["陳部長駿季：吳郭魚是79%，然後鬼頭刀的單價跟吳郭魚的單價還有外銷形式、外銷數量……"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在就把單價給你看啊！他們是70跟79，有差那麼多嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員講……"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在就告訴你，如果有算錯，你要認、你要好好地調整、你要滾動式地調整，我今天是提醒你，我今天不是來跟你吵架的喔！"],["陳部長駿季：我已經承諾了我們會滾動檢討，但是委員不能用一部分的那個……"],["張委員嘉郡：那你就說嘛！滾動檢討是怎麼檢討？如果你把真的依據講出來，能說服我我也覺得OK，但是你現在提的沒有一項能夠說服我嘛！你說要滾動式檢討，我是贊成的，但也許要趕快，而不是像現在大家都傻住了，因為吳郭魚的魚片比鬼頭刀的魚片、鱸魚的魚片貴，結果你給他的補助，人家是10元、19元，你只補助他5元，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：不能用這樣算法……"],["張委員嘉郡：我必須要講政府的補助很重要，對於產業來說就像是打強心針一樣，但強心針不能亂打，打對的是救命，打錯了反而出事，所以我希望農業部不要輕忽這個訊號，務必要儘快地修正。另外，針對補助對象的問題，上一次您到雲林來跟我們所有漁業業者進行座談，您記得嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我當然記得。"],["張委員嘉郡：那個時候就有漁民跟你反映，補助的對象是不是也可以把合作社納入申請範圍。現場部長就直接答應合作社會納入補助範圍，但是在公告內容當中，你可以自己看你的公告內容，你的公告內容對象僅限於雲、嘉、南、高、屏、宜、東地區的漁會，排除合作社，我很難理解當時的承諾為什麼沒有落實？為什麼漁業署沒有落實部長的指示？這個是當場喔！當時有這麼多人在現場，這是部長親自指示的，是哪一個環節出了問題呢？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員說明，我們對於合作社的協助，包括金融支持、產業支持跟後面的外銷獎勵都會有，除了冷鏈設施的補助，現階段是以漁會為主……"],["張委員嘉郡：你在現場怎麼不這樣講？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，那是細節，但是以我們公告……"],["張委員嘉郡：當時全部人都以為你講的是冷鏈啊！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你現在是要告訴我你在現場講錯了，冷鏈沒有在裡面？"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有講錯，在現場我們講的是整個漁業的產業支持，但是我也跟委員講，我們會再考慮合作社的冷鏈是不是可以協助，我們第一階段是用漁會，然後第二階段漁會……"],["張委員嘉郡：漁會很好、很認真、很照顧漁民，我覺得你把漁會納在裡面是對的，但是合作社呢？"],["陳部長駿季：對！合作社的部分，我們也會考慮，但是合作社一定要跟前端的漁民有一些契作、合作的，有一些沒有，所以委員，我們會有規範……"],["張委員嘉郡：當然啊！你如果有一些規劃、有一些規範、有一些規定，這都合理，但是你不能完全把它排除在外。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我會先跟漁業署講，針對合作社的冷鏈設施不是一律都不行，一定是要有嚴謹的規範，包括它跟前端的漁民有合作。"],["張委員嘉郡：是！這個我完全贊成、完全認同，你要有嚴格的規範、要有一定的規範，這樣大家有理有據，可以來執行、可以來落實，不要說你完全沒在做，也要來申請，這是不合理的。請部長跟署長要儘快，因為這些合作社也質疑，當天部長來講得好好的，怎麼回去後漁業署也不理部長，冷鏈設備也沒有包括他們。這會令業者產生懷疑，所有漁業的漁民都會懷疑為什麼部長說話不算話？"],["陳部長駿季：不會！我們持續跟漁民溝通，他們應該了解。"],["張委員嘉郡：當然這一點，我也希望部長儘快地了解，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：沒問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：我還要再問經濟部次長，謝謝。"],["主席：何次長。"],["張委員嘉郡：次長，針對美國關稅的風波，行政院本來提出要挹注880億給企業應急，不過行政院後來又宣布這一次的特別條例要調漲為4,100億，可以請次長說明一下，這一筆預算大增4.65倍的原因嗎？還有經濟部對於未來這筆預算的擘劃？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，其中930億的部分是用在支持產業，還有勞工安定就業的部分及農業發展的部分，其他的部分，我想都是分別在各個部會裡面……"],["張委員嘉郡：好，其他的部分我幫你講好了，國土安全韌性1,500億，包括興建巡防艦艇等；照顧民生1,670億，其中撥補台電1,000億，然後老屋修繕50億，實際上產業界可以受惠的部分，只有占全部的23%左右。請問次長，這一次預算是打著關稅危機的名義，卻撥出不到四分之一給產業，您認為這樣合理嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，其實這一次我們是利用整個稅收超徵的部分，除了面對美國關稅問題以外……"],["張委員嘉郡：我就問你合不合理？身為經濟部次長，你覺得合理嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：我覺得這是整個國家的政策，我們是要強化國家的產業韌性、社會韌性跟國防韌性。"],["張委員嘉郡：基本上，你就只有撥23%，怎麼增加產業韌性？行政院提的方案，在挹注產業的部分，我們一定大力支持，但其他的部分是不是應該回歸到常態預算來審議，而不是用這種包裹式的特別條例來討論，尤其這些包山包海的項目，全部都由經濟部來主管，經濟部難道不會覺得莫名其妙、角色錯置嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，條例裡有寫到一個條文，相關的預算編列還是要回到各個部會，相關的管考機制還是要回到各個部會，所以我想利用這四個……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以就是用你來包裝而已啊！你這樣一講，不就是用你來包裝嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：其實特別條例是為了要因應整個經濟、社會跟國土安全韌性的部分。"],["張委員嘉郡：基本上，這樣的特別預算真的稱得上是全民共度難關的配套措施嗎？我在這裡補充一點給今天所有列席的各部會聽一下。日本在面對美國關稅衝擊、國內物價高漲壓力的時候，自民黨跟公明黨所組成的執政聯盟也提出普發現金政策，一個人5萬日幣，試算下來，可以抬高日本GDP 0.25%，證明普發現金不是特例，而是在面對經濟壓力時，很多國家都會採取的可行政策，因此本席在這裡呼籲，不分朝野支持將部分的特別預算用於普發現金，讓這個預算不只是救產業，也能夠真正降低人民的經濟壓力跟回應社會的期待，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請張啓楷委員質詢。","主席順便作以下宣告：陳亭妃委員質詢完，休息10分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","蔡易餘","陳超明","邱志偉","羅明才","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","王正旭","陳玉珍","邱鎮軍","顏寬恒","翁曉玲","蘇清泉","王美惠","許宇甄","牛煦庭"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、行政院函請審議「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案；\n二、本院國民黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例草案」案；三、\n本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢衝擊強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案」案；四、本院委\n員蔡易餘等18人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案；五、本院\n委員王美惠等17人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144901_00002"}}},{"id":"161331","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161331","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b173ca6ae331c8d69ebe85dec65e1b6405433fb1cebf983d86e20a296e7f2f0315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:41:30 - 10:50:37","影片長度":"00:09:07","會議時間":"2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱若華等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n 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主委好請看一下頭影片上面這個內容你們應該都很熟悉這分別是書發部及國科會你們在官網上面所列的主管業務那書發部這邊的主要業務包含是推動國家數位發展政策及發展資料的運用維護我國數位資料安全"},{"start":44.019,"end":62.948,"text":"那國科會呢則是國家科學發展支援學術研究搭起學術界與產業界的合作橋樑AI發展經過在大量的資料收集及運用上次長還有主委能不能就你們速發部這個國科會的業務執掌以及你們專業來說明AI基本法處則機關應該在速發部的理由主委您先好了"},{"start":68.15,"end":81.162,"text":"國科會過去這一年來我們協助行政院來草擬AI基本法是因為國科會有非常多的學術界人力對AI非常熟悉我們藉由這樣的專業能力來結合我們的法治單位"},{"start":89.769,"end":113.666,"text":"來訂定草泥這個AI基本法這個過程也跟蘇發部其實是通力合作這個合作的過程我們跟社會各界溝通跟政府各部會來溝通這個過程我們都依照法制訂定的原則來進行到行政院也是一樣這個過程我們充分溝通以後"},{"start":115.727,"end":133.197,"text":"發現說這個基本法未來在實施一定會接觸到我們的人民接觸到我們的產業各個層面行政院設立數位發展部當初的目的就是希望數位發展部能夠統籌我們政府在資料治理方面的政務的推動"},{"start":136.338,"end":142.482,"text":"所以後來在過程當中雖然這個AI基本法並沒有設定一個主政的部會但是將來在解釋法令一定會由數位發展部來負責所以在最後這個階段我們就交棒給數位發展部數位發展部也非常努力在制定相關的作用法有關這個資料治理的部分特別是這部分還有協調經濟部"},{"start":166.182,"end":184.351,"text":"這個制裁局在制定這個有關這個資料授權等等相關的一些議題所以我想這個交棒的工作我們現在進行非常順利那接下來我請謝謝主委那也請葉市長您就您的業務您的職長以及您的專業來說明一下"},{"start":187.533,"end":210.454,"text":"數位發展部成立的目的是為了協助公司部門的數位轉型當然資料治理也是非常重要的一部分AI將來的推動會牽涉到產業跟政府的AI的應用基於這個理由行政院期許我們能夠接下國科會的棒子推動立法以及後續的解釋我們就會遵照行政院的指示來辦理"},{"start":211.138,"end":232.764,"text":"好 謝謝次長其實在一般民眾的印象中也會覺得說國科會業務比較在學術的比較在原發以及規劃那數發布這邊的業務比較在執行面所以本席希望說委員應該尊重行政院的專業行政院以各部會的這個業務權責及後續AR基本法通過之後相關的法規修訂政策推動評估後認為應該是有數發布這邊來主責"},{"start":236.385,"end":251.753,"text":"行政院既然有這樣的專業來規則那立法院這邊也不應該強行的來干預好那接下來我想要請教目前世界各國對AI立法有相當大的歧見然後歐盟在去年的7月正式公告AI法案"},{"start":252.273,"end":271.529,"text":"那他是透過風險分級的這個規範AI技術的應用禁止就是敏感特徵生物辨識等等但是美國目前也批評說歐洲這個監管科技的方式覺得說會限制到AI科技的發展並且重新研議AI行動方案那我們目前法案的版本大部分是納入歐洲的風險分級規範但是"},{"start":273.891,"end":284.972,"text":"美國跟台灣在半導體及AI產業是緊密的合作也正在進行關稅的談判那我想請教次長針對AI基本法這個內容事務發布會不會有所調整"},{"start":286.107,"end":310.715,"text":"我們基本上已經在國科院版本已經在行政院做了比較詳盡的審查所以我們大概是完全遵照而且當初討論我們也都參與了那跟委員報告就是說我剛才也提到就是我們在美國跟歐盟這兩大世界的這個立法這個法制之下針對台灣的情形我們採取的方式是訂定基本法意思就是說它一方面它是一個專法但是它是一個原則性的立法"},{"start":311.035,"end":333.306,"text":"它並不會過分的干預各個領域的AI應用跟發展但是又保留了像歐盟所提到的譬如說關於人權的保障關於隱私的保障以及資料的保護跟再利用等等這部分所以是一個比較折衷型的我們目前法案的內容是還是照由之前我們從國科會轉過來的這個版本目前是沒有"},{"start":334.066,"end":362.504,"text":"做更多 那國會這邊也沒有建議說因為其實國際的形勢訊息萬變的有沒有建議說在這個部分要做怎樣的調整我跟委員報告我們當初國會這個版本當初除了在國內已經得到所有領域的共識之外在國際上也很多國家都在關注台灣這個立法那我跟委員報告就是說有關我們在折衷"},{"start":363.084,"end":386.715,"text":"我們提出這個風險分類這樣的這個概念希望在各個不同的應用上面去分級這種做法現在其實歐盟也在參考我們的做法美國也在參考我們的做法所以我們這個法案一推出來我相信一定會變成國際上大家關注而且會來學習我們立法的這個標杆所以我是期待"},{"start":387.475,"end":414.213,"text":"期待我們將來這個行政院版本推出來以後我們在立法院能夠得到我們各黨的這個支持因為其實我剛剛有聽次長您的回答就是說我們會採取比較折衷的辦法但所謂折衷的這個折衷的這個辦法這個走向呢會不會想要面面兼顧可是卻又都不到位這個會不會擔心說會有做到這樣子你每個面向都想過啊可是每個面向都沒有辦法就是把它做得很好"},{"start":414.753,"end":444.093,"text":"是,跟我們報告,就正如剛剛主委所講的,我們在風險這個管理的方面,大概是所有AI的法律裡面最重要的重點,那我們所謂的折衷,那它其實是有意義的,就是說一方面我們把風險這個標示出來,它在針對系統的風險,還是國家社會風險,還是個人的風險,那這個標示出來,那同時我們也這個引進一套程序,就是從識別到評估到如何對應,那這個指引可以幫助各個領域根據風險的高低來做不同的判斷,"},{"start":444.713,"end":466.601,"text":"那這樣的折衷並不是沒有取捨的譬如說假設風險很低甚至沒有風險的那應該盡量讓民間自由來做但是如果風險很高的譬如說醫療領域會牽涉到人的生命跟健康那必須要採取比較高監管的方式所以它固然是一個折衷的方式但是它還是根據奉獻我們國際上稱之為Respect Management"},{"start":467.961,"end":482.118,"text":"就風險高的高監管風險低的低監管大概是這樣的方式來進行然後在各跨部會有一個統一的這樣一個指引框架來協助各部會定出他的成績式的規範大概的方向是這樣跟委員報告"},{"start":483.488,"end":509.046,"text":"其實之前國科會在整個討論的過程之中我也相信各部會都參與也是充分的討論但是剛剛我也提到說其實國際的這個情勢是瞬息萬變的像歐盟的AI法案施行之後CHAT GPT及Deep Seek才問世所以這個整個的AI浪潮也使得說歐盟的AI法案有許多覺得是難以全面適用這樣的疑慮"},{"start":509.867,"end":531.377,"text":"所以其實AI的科技發展有很多的未知性那倡促立法也會影響到AI科技的發展所以我這邊還是希望說書法部這邊還是要再繼續的廣納各界的意見如果有新的意見進來要收集我們不希望說AI基本法的這個美意會變成限制台灣AI發展的枷鎖好 以上 謝謝是 謝謝委員謝謝陳秀寶委員質詢 官員請回座接下來有請林怡瑾 昭偉 質詢"},{"start":543.751,"end":544.634,"text":"謝主席 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 management，就是風險高的高監管、風險低的低監管，大概是以這樣的方式來進行，之後跨部會有一個統一的指引框架來協助各部會訂出其層級式的規範，大概的方向是這樣。"],["陳委員秀寳：之前國科會在整個討論的過程之中，我相信各部會都有參與，也充分討論，但是剛剛我有提到，其實國際的情勢是瞬息萬變的，像在歐盟的AI法案施行之後，ChatGPT及DeepSeek才問世，所以這整個AI浪潮，也使得歐盟的AI法案有許多人覺得有難以全面適用的疑慮，其實AI的科技發展有很多的未知性，倉促立法也會影響到AI科技的發展，我還是希望數發部要繼續廣納各界的意見，如果有新的意見進來要予以蒐集，我們不希望AI基本法的美意變成是限制臺灣AI發展的枷鎖。以上，謝謝。"],["葉次長寧：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員質詢，官員請回座。","接下來有請林宜瑾召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,23-1","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳宗憲","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","柯志恩","李昆澤","林俊憲","陳素月","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","葉元之","蔡其昌","劉書彬","萬美玲","張雅琳","郭昱晴","何欣純","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","游顥","徐富癸","吳沛憶","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","范雲","林沛祥","邱若華","廖先翔","許宇甄","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；二、審查委員邱若華等 17 人擬具\n「人工智慧基本法草案」案；三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；四、\n審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工\n智慧基本法草案」案；六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；七、審查委\n員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案 （僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1144802_00004"}}},{"id":"161330","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161330","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b1d437332dab76390ebe85dec65e1b6405433fb1cebf983d876d6fe535e5dfa9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"10:32:27 - 10:41:24","影片長度":"00:08:57","會議時間":"2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱若華等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n 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請主席邀請速發部葉次長有請葉次長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":23.359,"end":47.105,"text":"委員早安 委員好次長早今天我們是針對這個人工智慧法來進行詢問那我們也知道現在科技的進步發展真的是日新月異所以這個人工智慧的一個發展也跟著蓬勃發展那對於這個人工智慧的這個運用對我們的商業活動跟我們現代人類的生活也是造成很大的衝擊跟影響"},{"start":51.108,"end":71.885,"text":"這個賴總統也宣誓說要打造台灣成為人工智慧之島那主委院長也有強調說要推動台灣進入AI全面的應用時代所以一個完善的人工智慧基本法對於我們就是要這個發展AI的指引絕對是有它的必要性這個也是很多委員會社會各界都在關注的一個議題"},{"start":73.166,"end":87.433,"text":"那我們也知道隨著AI的一個快速發展跟它的運用它所帶來的一個風險真的也是非常的大像這個AI它提供的資訊的偏見或者是不確不準確性或者是錯誤的訊息或者是會是不是侵犯隱私的問題還有這個智慧財產權的問題這剛剛崑澤委員問到還有這個威脅國家安全還有這個AI失控這樣子的一些風險"},{"start":100.62,"end":114.881,"text":"所以这些风险也是成为我们各国在这个AI治理上真的是迫在眉睫必须去面对跟处理的那在这边我请教一下叶司长就是我们对这个AI风险的管理我们的态度是怎么样"},{"start":117.044,"end":144.122,"text":"我們完全同意委員的說法我們同時要在鼓勵創新跟風險管理之間求取的平衡行政院在研擬這個AI基本法的時候大概就會特別的強調說包括人類自主隱私的保護跟安全性透明跟可解釋性公平跟可問責希望我們能夠享受AI所帶來的好處減低AI所帶來的負面的影響所以這個在草案裡面"},{"start":146.424,"end":173.627,"text":"是那我们就是说对未来对于这个AI的一个监理因为我们知道现在就是参考国外的做法目前大概有两种的方式一个就是欧盟的就是制定人工智慧监管的专法那另外一个就是美国的就是不制定专法他是采取比较这个监管的态度是比较自由的就是要避免过度的一个干预所以在这个部分我们是不是也要去思考就是说我们在制定这个专法来监管之后"},{"start":174.147,"end":195.254,"text":"對於這個AI的一個發展是不是會造成限制是謝謝委員的確我們有看到歐盟跟韓國的嚴格比較嚴格的這個監管規範會造成這個AI創新的一些一定的阻礙所以我們採取基本法模式最大的好處它是原則性的規定那它不會這個阻礙這個創新或是彈性的運用那這個"},{"start":196.994,"end":216.808,"text":"只有在各個領域在特別使用到AI的時候各個領域的主管機關可以根據它風險高低訂定規範譬如說自駕車一定會使用到人工智慧交通部就可以訂定無人載具的特別規範或者是在醫學上已經廣泛應用AI的醫療器材"},{"start":218.529,"end":242.902,"text":"其實我們的衛福部也訂定了醫療器材AI的指引這個意思就是說在一般性的規範上面我們採取基本法原則性的就像委員所說的保留一定的彈性但是在各個領域會根據它風險高低來制定比較細膩的規範我們是採取這樣做法可以說是折衷歐盟跟美國採取的一種折衷式的方式"},{"start":243.627,"end":250.813,"text":"是那我們就是參照這個歐盟他是針對這個AI的一個監理他是就是AI的這個風險他是用風險分級的一個方式就是分為不可接受的風險高風險還有有限風險及低或無風險四個等級那我們看到速發部的一個報告還有對外的一個就是說明都是我們要採取這個風險分類那所謂風險分級跟風險分類有什麼差別它差異是在哪裡"},{"start":274.541,"end":299.614,"text":"根本報告風險分級就如委員所提到歐盟其實是把它分成這個不可接受一直到低風險那其實在歐盟因為它是一個框架性的法律到各個會員國它其實還是有彈性的空間那我們採取的是另外一種方式其實比較像是美國NIST所採取的方式我們把風險不管它是影響國家的還是影響社會秩序還是影響人權的把它標示出來"},{"start":300.915,"end":315.167,"text":"而且從這個識別風險到評估風險到這個對應風險我們提供一連串建議讓各個領域的主管單位譬如說智慧醫療也好或智慧金融也好或智慧交通也好可以根據他那個領域"},{"start":316.328,"end":336.257,"text":"所會形成的風險把它識別出來然後採取跟風險高的我們就採取比較高的限制手段那風險低的或許採取透明化的義務甚至如果沒有風險的可以不用監管大概是用這樣的方式來做那相對於這個歐盟的風險分歧它兼顧了層級化規範但是它可能在各個領域有更大彈性適用的空間"},{"start":337.19,"end":343.334,"text":"是好那我們知道就是說現在就是全球AI的競爭可以說是非常的激烈所以AI的技術也是成為各國科技競爭的一個核心所以也看到各國真的都是卯足全力真的是摩拳擦掌那我們看到"},{"start":355.243,"end":358.427,"text":"韓國他也宣示說2030年他要擠升全球AI三強為目標所以我們看到韓國他的做法在今年他們就將這個就是有關科技的這個預算追加"},{"start":369.841,"end":374.204,"text":"增加了25%來到了1.8兆的含元好像這1.8兆的含元換算成台幣是386億這是一個非常龐大的預算我們也看到去年書發部有表示就是要規劃五年期的政府AI發展戰略計畫這個部分好像預計編列190億的經費預計在明年正式啟動"},{"start":396.019,"end":419.313,"text":"那目前這個政府AI發展戰略計劃的計劃內容我們行政院核定了嗎這個我們還在行政院審查當中那我們會盡快的希望這個其實是智慧國家非常重要的一個部分那希望能夠及早的能夠達成共識之後那能夠行政院核定之後我們快盡快來推動"},{"start":420.163,"end":440.811,"text":"是因為總統都宣示說要打造台灣成為人工智慧之島所以我們就是說在各個方面的這個效率啊或者是決心我想也是非常的重要的啦所以有關這樣子一個戰略計劃我想應該也是應該要盡速的來進行那另外我們"},{"start":444.724,"end":449.146,"text":"就是對於整個AI的一個發展我們也是期待就是說我們人工智慧的發展有它的一個風險所以我們也要盡量去就是考量這個風險跟這個機會並存這樣子的一個狀態因為人工智慧的發展畢竟為我們帶來便利性然後它的風險真的是不可預知不可控的所以"},{"start":467.614,"end":482.145,"text":"對於有高風度危險的AI我們也是要做好相關的一個準備讓這個風險控制在一定的程度裡面因為目前我們也看到就是說有一些例子就是AI失控的一個例子那這部分我們未來會怎麼去預防"},{"start":484.992,"end":513.605,"text":"就我剛跟委員報告就是說在各個領域那它會訂定不同的這個層級式的規範那高風險領域如果它已經到科技上面沒辦法可控的話可能會完全限制它使用那它如果是可控的狀態下它可能必須要經過一定的審查機制譬如我剛才所提到的AI或者是Machine Learning的醫療工具其實衛福部是會進行審查的那有一些它必須要有透明化的衣物譬如說我們的防炸條例就有規定說網路廣告平台使用人工智慧是要標示"},{"start":514.358,"end":533.109,"text":"是,所以我们对于AI的一个管理规范,我们也希望出发部要做一个好好的全面的一个评估,因为也要综合我们国家的一个国情做一个通盘的一个考量,然后未来定义一个完善又完备的一个管理的规范。谢谢。谢谢委员。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":354,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時32分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請數發部葉次長。"],["主席：有請葉次長備質詢，謝謝。"],["葉次長寧：委員早安、委員好。"],["陳委員素月：次長早。今天我們是針對人工智慧法來進行詢答，我們也知道現在科技的進步發展真的是日新月異，所以人工智慧也跟著蓬勃發展，而人工智慧的運用對於我們的商業活動以及人類的生活也造成很大的衝擊及影響。賴總統也宣示要打造臺灣成為人工智慧之島，卓院長也有強調要推動臺灣進入全面應用AI的時代，所以一個完善的人工智慧基本法對於我們要發展AI的指引，絕對是有它的必要性，這也是很多委員及社會各界都在關注的議題。我們也知道，隨著AI的快速發展跟它的運用，它所帶來的風險真的也是非常大，像AI所提供的資訊偏見或不準確性，或是錯誤的訊息，或是否會侵犯隱私的問題，還有智慧財產權的問題，這部分剛剛昆澤委員有問到，還有威脅國家安全以及AI失控的一些風險，這些風險也成為各國在AI治理上迫在眉睫必須去面對跟處理的。在這邊我請教一下葉次長，對於AI風險的管理，我們的態度是怎麼樣？"],["葉次長寧：我們都完全同意委員的說法，就是我們要在鼓勵創新跟風險管理之間求取平衡，行政院在研擬AI基本法的時候大概就會特別強調，包括人類的自主、隱私保護、安全性、透明及可解釋性、公平以及可問責，希望我們能夠享受AI所帶來的好處，減低AI所帶來的負面影響，這個部分在草案裡面也都會做詳盡的規劃。"],["陳委員素月：是。那麼未來對於AI的監理，因為我們知道現在是參考國外的作法，目前大概有兩種的方式：一個是歐盟的，就是制定人工智慧監管的專法，另外一個是美國的，就是不制定專法，它的監管態度是採取比較自由的方式，避免過度干預。所以在這個部分，我們是不是也要去思考，在制定專法監管之後，對於AI的發展是不是會造成限制？"],["葉次長寧：謝謝委員。的確我們有看到歐盟跟韓國比較嚴格的監管規範，會造成AI創新一定的阻礙，所以我們採取基本法模式，最大的好處是它是原則性的規定，不會阻礙創新或是彈性的運用，在各個領域使用到AI的時候，各個領域的主管機關可以根據風險高低來訂定規範。譬如說自駕車一定會使用到人工智慧，交通部就可以訂定無人載具的特別規範；或者是在醫學上已經廣泛應用AI的醫療器材，其實衛福部也訂定了相關醫療器材AI的指引。意思就是，在一般性的規範上面，我們採取基本法，也就是原則性的，就像委員所說的，保留一定的彈性，但是在各個領域會根據風險高低來制訂比較細膩的規範，我們是採取這樣的作法，可以說是折衷歐盟跟美國所採取的一種折衷式的方式。"],["陳委員素月：是。所以我們就是參照歐盟，針對AI的監理，它是用風險分級的方式，分為不可接受的風險、高風險、有限風險以及低或無風險四個等級，我們看到數發部的報告還有對外的說明，都是說我們要採取風險分類，所謂的風險分級跟風險分類有什麼差別？差異是在哪裡？"],["葉次長寧：跟委員報告，風險分級就如委員所提到，歐盟其實是把這部分分成不可接受到低風險，而因為在歐盟，這是一個框架性的法律，因此各個會員國其實還是有彈性的空間。而我們採取的是另外一種方式，其實比較像是美國NIST所採取的方式，我們把這個風險，不管是影響國家的、影響社會秩序的還是影響人權的，標示出來，而且從識別風險到評估風險到對應風險，我們提供一連串的建議，讓各個領域的主管單位，譬如說智慧醫療也好、智慧金融也好、智慧交通也好，可以根據那個領域會形成的風險，把它識別出來，風險高的我們就採取比較高的限制手段，風險低的，或許採取透明化的義務，甚至如果沒有風險的，可以不用監管，大概是用這樣的方式來做。相對於歐盟的風險分級，兼顧了層級化規範，但是在各個領域可以有更大彈性的適用空間。"],["陳委員素月：好。我們知道現在全球AI競爭可以說是非常激烈，所以AI技術也成為各國科技競爭的核心，也看到各國真的都是卯足全力、摩拳擦掌。我們看到韓國也宣示2030年要以躋身全球AI三強為目標，所以韓國的作法，今年他們就將有關科技的預算增加了25%，來到1.8兆韓元，換算成臺幣是386億，這是一個非常龐大的預算。我們也看到去年數發部有表示要規劃五年期的政府AI發展戰略計畫，這個部分好像編列190億的經費，預計在明年正式啟動，目前這個政府AI發展戰略計畫的計畫內容，行政院核定了嗎？"],["葉次長寧：這個部分行政院還在審查當中，我們會希望能夠儘快，其實這是智慧國家非常重要的一部分，希望能夠及早地達成共識，行政院核定之後，我們儘快來推動。"],["陳委員素月：是，因為總統都宣示說要打造臺灣成為人工智慧之島，所以我們在各個方面的效率或是決心，我想也是非常重要的，因此有關這樣的戰略計畫，我想也應該要儘速地來進行。另外，對於整個AI的發展，因為人工智慧的發展有其風險，所以我們也要儘量去考量風險跟機會並存的狀態，人工智慧的發展畢竟為我們帶來便利性，但其風險真的是不可預知及不可控，因此對於高度危險的AI，我們也要做好相關的準備，讓風險控制在一定程度裡面，目前我們也看到一些AI失控的例子，這部分你們未來會怎麼預防？"],["葉次長寧：就如我剛剛跟委員報告的，各個領域會訂定不同的層級式規範，高風險領域如果已經到科技上面沒辦法控制的話，可能會完全限制其使用；如果是在可控的狀態下，它可能必須要經過一定的審查機制。譬如我剛才所提到的，AI或是Machine Learning的醫療工具其實衛福部是會進行審查的，有一些必須要有透明化的義務，比如防詐條例就規定網路廣告平臺使用人工智慧是要標示的。"],["陳委員素月：對於AI的管理規範，我們希望數發部要做一個好的、全面的評估，也要綜合國家的國情來做一個通盤的考量，未來訂定一個完善又完備的管理規範，謝謝。"],["葉次長寧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月委員的質詢，官員請回座。","接下來有請陳秀寳委員質詢，待會在林宜瑾召委質詢之後休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,23-1","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳宗憲","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","柯志恩","李昆澤","林俊憲","陳素月","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","葉元之","蔡其昌","劉書彬","萬美玲","張雅琳","郭昱晴","何欣純","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","游顥","徐富癸","吳沛憶","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","范雲","林沛祥","邱若華","廖先翔","許宇甄","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；二、審查委員邱若華等 17 人擬具\n「人工智慧基本法草案」案；三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；四、\n審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工\n智慧基本法草案」案；六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；七、審查委\n員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案 （僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1144802_00004"}}},{"id":"161329","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161329","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b096714d15c17d5ebfe24093ee94bb6855433fb1cebf983d8a86133156bd620685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:28:32 - 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我們請部長"},{"start":10.425,"end":33.601,"text":"黃委員好部長好 部長在去年你剛上任的時候那當時我也當召委那有針對我們垃圾的這個問題堆置的問題也有排一個專報那當時部長也非常關心那你自己也有到地方有下去看嗎那我想請教就是說從我們的那個露天的堆置垃圾量是"},{"start":34.301,"end":60.912,"text":"每一年每一年都一直在增加那我不知道說部長你從去年這樣看然後你有什麼樣的一個解決方式幫委員我們訂了一個計劃就是明年年底不要露天裸露因為露天裸露是讓附近大概有48個露天裸露的點的確附近的居民生活都很困難那個味道或是整個蒼蠅非常的多所以我們先解決這個問題"},{"start":61.992,"end":87.031,"text":"那因為我們大概在明年的這個焚化爐的量能可以起來了所以整個會有一點慢慢的平衡下來所以整個我們希望露天裸露解決然後不要有新的那個垃圾產生不要量能平衡其實這個問題就逐步的可以解決那部長你剛剛有特別提到就是全台灣48座的這個垃圾山那你是希望明年就沒有這種垃圾露天裸露的狀況嗎裸露的這個狀況那你怎麼處理"},{"start":89.973,"end":118.55,"text":"第一個是一定要有一些復土第二個是打包甚至說我們要再協調一下這個處理的量能夠處理得更好請其他縣市幫忙處理嗎有的是其他縣市那有的要自己去解決像桃園就要自己去盡量自己要去解決這個事情那我們基本上跟每個縣市因為每個縣市的狀況不大一樣所以我們基本上一個一個去跟他們談那目前大家都統一明年會一起來完成解決這個問題"},{"start":119.491,"end":142.586,"text":"好那我們是期待因為去年問題然後到今年然後現在變成明年那我們希望說能夠逐年把它解決啦另外我想請教就是說如果我們以目前全台灣27座的這個垃圾焚化爐來處理家戶垃圾那我想請教部長如果說處理家戶垃圾27座焚化爐如果互相調度的話你覺得這樣量能夠嗎"},{"start":143.447,"end":167.527,"text":"因為現在的垃圾粉化爐是屬於地方政府在管理那當然啦理論上的量能是夠的但是他必須要經營他會去燃燒失業廢棄物也排擠了我們家庭廢棄物的量能的確這個就是一個過去的問題但是這個問題是地方的失誤去做處理例如說桃園他們也燒了很多失業廢棄物他們裸露的也蠻多的"},{"start":168.247,"end":178.475,"text":"當然他們說應該這樣來解決可是他們自己都沒辦法解決這個問題所以基本上我是覺得第一個整改的速度在未來一兩年內會陸續的完成我們垃圾的問題應該在未來這幾年可以解決"},{"start":181.872,"end":199.187,"text":"好那我們看到我們所有的這個27座的焚化爐其中有20座都已經超過20年所以它這個燒的這種效率也許沒有那麼高那我想請教就是說以目前我們的垃圾就是那個熱脂"},{"start":200.388,"end":221.626,"text":"熱值都非常的高所以也可能造成我們垃圾焚化爐燒的這個效率沒有那麼好以至於很多的這個垃圾可能就堆置那我想請教就是說剛剛部長有提到可能會逐年就是裸露的這種狀況可能會逐年減少那這個我們是從去年"},{"start":222.487,"end":241.923,"text":"開始關心那部長也真的非常關心也有實際到地方去看好那我們對你有很大的期待然後那確定就是說希望這些裸露的狀況能夠有所改善好因為中部地區其實也有很多這個垃圾山好那可能不定時偶爾就會有這個"},{"start":244.125,"end":262.938,"text":"火災火燒山的這種狀況發生所以如果可以將這個垃圾裸露的這個狀況如果可以解決的話我覺得也可以改善這個垃圾山附近居民的這個生活品質那尤其有很多垃圾山就鄰近著學校"},{"start":264.759,"end":288.42,"text":"這個狀況真的如果可以解決的話也可以一併讓孩子們在上課的時候也不要每天都聞到那個臭味尤其是夏天的時候真的那個味道真的是非常非常的難聞委包委員因為現在大概已經降到74左右了70萬去年年底的時候說到83、84萬噸那現在有在降了那我們預計下半年因為我們陸續的這個整個作業"},{"start":290.542,"end":311.394,"text":"會加快它的速度所以預計下半年應該會更多明年的數字會更好看那我也想請教部長因為我們目前的這個垃圾焚化爐除了燒這個交互垃圾那有一部分也會燒失業廢棄物那這個失業廢棄物他們所收的這個價格可能"},{"start":312.094,"end":335.69,"text":"跟這個非自己轄內的這個廢棄物的話這個價格還要高嘛那我想請教就是說像有一些縣市比如說堆置的這個垃圾他自己真的確實是沒辦法去處理那我剛剛有問部長嘛如果這些這幾座27座的垃圾焚化爐如果純粹來燒"},{"start":337.871,"end":353.286,"text":"我們的這個加護垃圾應該是足夠的如果是這樣子的應該是足夠的那有沒有什麼樣的方式就是說當然如果說各縣市他要去燒這個一般的失業廢棄物來講因為這個收入可能會"},{"start":356.169,"end":377.335,"text":"可能會更好可能會更高那中央這邊除了可能有一些緊急狀況可以做調度的話那其他好像你們也沒辦法去調度其他縣市的焚化爐去做這個燒這個垃圾的這種情形那未來的話有沒有可能就是說我們環境部可以做一個調配"},{"start":378.735,"end":403.82,"text":"好就是說如果你目前27座焚化爐而且就是都已經20年以上了其實我覺得那個效率可能也可能會越來然後可能又會碰到稅休的狀況那是不是有可能未來透過修法或者其他的方式我們環境部也可以去做這樣的一個垃圾的一個調配針對我們的一般的這個家庭的這個廢棄物"},{"start":405.491,"end":429.213,"text":"報告委員第一個是說我們的調度只針對沒有分化如設備處理的縣市會幫忙做調度例如說南投等等那大多數的縣市因為他們自己要這樣燒因為他基本上會採取促餐的方式或BOT的方式能夠獲得民間的裁員所以他才會去燒事業廢棄物這個我們都尊重但是過去的體制就變成這個樣子了"},{"start":430.214,"end":459.814,"text":"那未來呢我也贊同委員的觀點我們未來是希望說不是說我們要興建廢棄物而是說我們希望全循環的流向的這個處理例如說有一個園區它可以從這個源頭到最後末端都可以很好的處理這個希望我們在台灣能夠設幾個地方自己有自己的量能把這個產業扶持起來這個是我們中長期的一個目標所以目前我們大概也跟行政院提出一個相關的計畫所以希望明年可以爭取到預算能夠來做這個事情"},{"start":460.494,"end":481.468,"text":"那部長我們剛剛講那個後端的處理那我們這個源頭減量其實確實也是非常的重要那我看到就是說你們的預算就是這個大部分花了這個十幾億在處理垃圾那這個源頭減量的部分預算跟這個處理垃圾相差二十幾倍"},{"start":482.429,"end":509.681,"text":"那我因為在地方我有看到好多議員在質詢就是說我們資源回收的那個價格其實不是那麼高那我在這邊是不是也有可能就是說環境部這邊針對源頭減量的這個預算是不是也可以逐年增加那我如果可以在源頭減量的話那我是不是就未來這個處理垃圾的這個經費就可以減少嗎"},{"start":512.222,"end":539.603,"text":"好 那垃圾 製造垃圾的這個狀況就會減少嘛所以我不知道說這個環境部針對這部分就是有關這個源頭減量的這個經費是不是未來會有所提升對 包圍這個我們自己的預算這塊源頭減量是我們的重點就這個就是循環經濟那我們會增加不過地方的這個不見得就會增加因為地方有些縣市會重視有些縣市不大重視"},{"start":540.303,"end":559.055,"text":"所以這個地方我們還要因地制宜能夠來鼓勵他們能夠增加這樣的預算那部長我想請教就是說我們這個處於處理其實我發現有一些就是處於處理其實不是那麼的確實"},{"start":561.036,"end":585.141,"text":"那這個也會造成我們焚化爐的那個壽命可能有時候就是會減短那你怎麼樣去針對這個廚餘廚餘的回收或廚餘的處理你們環境部這邊會怎麼跟地方這邊來配合我覺得這應該是一個很重要因為有時候我們會看到如果說這個廚餘沒有他可能就直接丟到垃圾車裡面去了"},{"start":587.215,"end":604.687,"text":"現在我們觀察有兩種方式一個是有些縣市像屏東或台南他們鼓勵補助一些廚藥機整個就處理掉我們也在觀察他們使用的效果如何到底有沒有會造成一些負面的效益另外一個就是我們有開始在研究黑水盲"},{"start":605.367,"end":627.168,"text":"它是不是可以收集出來用黑水盲因為黑水盲未來呢它也有一些SAF航空永續燃料用油這樣的一個處理所以我們現在是希望找到一些好的方式可以找到一些方向我們就接下來就大力的去推所以現在有看了幾種一個方案我已經提到的就是現在台灣遇到的一個問題因為如果是廚藥不好好處理拿去焚化爐燒那這個會影響到焚化爐的這個處理的量能"},{"start":630.692,"end":658.593,"text":"所以我覺得說應該也要盡快因為我們在去年的時候委員會也有去有去考察去看那個黑水盲那確實它真的應該這個效能應該還不錯所以有的公所他們自己本身有在做那其實我覺得好像推廣的不是那麼全面如果說還不錯的話其實我覺得應該要從環境部自己本身來做推動"},{"start":660.195,"end":661.783,"text":"好不好好謝謝我也在建議好好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":718,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（10時28分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，在去年你剛上任的時候，當時我也當召委，針對我們垃圾堆置的問題也有排一個專報，當時部長也非常關心，你自己也有到地方去看。我想請教，我們的露天堆置垃圾量是每一年、每一年都一直在增加，我不知道部長從去年這樣看，你有什麼樣的解決方式？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們訂的一個計畫就是明年年底不要露天裸露，大概有48個露天裸露的點，的確附近的居民生活都很困難，那個味道或是蒼蠅非常多，所以我們先解決這個問題。因為我們大概明年焚化爐的量能可以起來了，所以整個會慢慢的平衡下來，我們希望露天裸露解決，然後不要有新的垃圾產生，只要量能平衡，其實這個問題就逐步的可以解決。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。部長剛剛有特別提到全臺灣48座的垃圾山，你是希望明年就沒有這種垃圾露天裸露的狀況？"],["彭部長啓明：裸露的。"],["黃委員秀芳：裸露的狀況，那你要怎麼處理？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個，一定要有一些覆土，第二個是打包，甚至我們要再協調一下處理的量能，要能夠處理得更好，所以目前……"],["黃委員秀芳：請其他縣市幫忙處理嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有的是其他縣市，有的要自己去解決，像桃園就要儘量自己去解決這個事情，我們基本上跟每個縣市……因為每個縣市的狀況不大一樣，所以基本上我們一個一個去跟他們談，目前大家都同意明年會一起來完成解決這個問題。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我們很期待，因為去年問你是到今年，然後現在變成明年，我們希望能夠逐年把它解決。另外我想請教，如果以目前全臺灣27座垃圾焚化爐來處理家戶垃圾，我想請教部長，如果要處理家戶垃圾，27座焚化爐互相調度的話，你覺得這樣量能夠嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：因為現在的垃圾焚化爐是屬於地方政府在管理，當然理論上量能是夠的，但是它必須要經營，會去燃燒事業廢棄物，也排擠了家庭廢棄物的量能，的確這個是一個過去的問題，但是這個問題是由地方的事務去做處理，例如桃園也燒了很多事業廢棄物，他們裸露的也蠻多的，當然他們說將來應該要解決，可是他們自己都沒辦法解決這個問題，所以基本上我覺得，第一個是整改的速度，未來一、兩年內會陸續地完成，垃圾的問題在未來這幾年應該可以解決。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，所有27座的焚化爐，其中有20座都已經超過20年，所以它燒的效率也許沒有那麼高，我想請教目前我們的垃圾其熱值都非常高，所以可能造成垃圾焚化爐燒的效率沒有那麼好，造成很多垃圾堆置。剛剛部長有提到裸露的這種狀況可能會逐年減少，我們是從去年開始關心這個，部長也真的非常關心，也有實際到地方去看，我們對你有很大的期待，希望這些裸露的狀況能夠有所改善，因為中部地區其實也有很多垃圾山，可能不定時偶爾就會有自焚……"],["彭部長啓明：火災。"],["黃委員秀芳：火燒山的這種狀況發生，如果可以將垃圾裸露的狀況解決，我覺得也可以改善垃圾山附近居民的生活品質，尤其很多垃圾山鄰近學校，這個狀況如果真的可以解決的話，也可以一併讓孩子們在上課的時候不用每天都聞到那個臭味，尤其是夏天的時候，那個味道真的是非常非常的難聞。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，現在大概已經降到70萬噸左右了，去年年底的時候到83、84萬噸，現在有再降了，我們預計下半年會陸續加快整個作業的速度，所以預計下半年應該會更多，等於明年的數字會更好看。"],["黃委員秀芳：我也想請教部長，目前垃圾焚化爐除了燒家戶垃圾外，有一部分也會燒事業廢棄物嘛？這個事業廢棄物他們所收的價格，可能跟非自己轄內的廢棄物相比，價格還要高，我想請教的是，像有一些縣市，譬如說堆置的垃圾它自己確實真的沒辦法去處理，我剛剛有問部長，如果這27座垃圾焚化爐純粹來燒家戶垃圾應該是足夠的，如果是這樣子，應該是足夠的，那有沒有什麼樣的方式……當然如果各縣市要去燒一般的事業廢棄物，因為這個收入可能會更好、可能會更高，中央這邊除了有一些緊急狀況可能可以做調度，好像你們也沒辦法去調度其他縣市的焚化爐去燒垃圾，未來有沒有可能我們環境部可以做一個調配？就是目前27座焚化爐，也都已經20年以上，我覺得那個效率可能會越來差，可能又會碰到歲修的狀況，那未來是不是有可能透過修法或是其他的方式，針對一般的家庭廢棄物，環境部也可以去做垃圾的調配？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個，我們的調度只針對沒有焚化爐設備處理的縣市，我們會幫忙做調度，例如南投等等，大多數的縣市他們自己要這樣燒，因為它基本上會採取促參的方式或BOT的方式，以獲得民間的財源，所以它才會去燒事業廢棄物，這個我們都尊重，但是過去的體制就變成這個樣子了，至於未來的部分，我也贊同委員的觀點，我們未來是希望，不是說我們要興建焚化爐，而是希望朝向全循環流向的處理，例如說有一個園區，從源頭到最後的末端，它都可以很好的處理，希望我們在臺灣能夠設幾個地方，自己有自己的量能，把這個產業扶植起來，這個是我們中長期的目標，所以目前我們大概也跟行政院提出一個相關的計畫，希望明年可以爭取到預算，能夠來做這個事情。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，部長，我們剛剛講到後端的處理，源頭減量確實也是非常重要，我看到你們的預算大部分花了十幾億在處理垃圾，這個源頭減量的部分，其預算跟處理垃圾的相差二十幾倍，因為我在地方有看到好多議員在質詢，就是資源回收的價格其實不是那麼高，我在這邊是不是也有可能……環境部針對源頭減量的預算是不是也可以逐年增加？如果可以在源頭減量的話，那未來處理垃圾的經費就可以減少，製造垃圾的狀況就會減少，所以我不知道環境部針對這部分，就是有關源頭減量的經費，未來是不是會有所提升？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，關於我們自己的預算，源頭減量這塊是我們的重點，這個就是循環經濟，我們會增加，不過地方不見得就會增加，因為有些地方縣市會重視，有些縣市不大重視，所以這個地方我們還要因地制宜，鼓勵他們能夠增加這樣的預算。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，我想請教部長關於廚餘處理，我發現有一些廚餘處理其實不是那麼的確實。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：這個也會造成焚化爐的壽命可能有時候會減短，針對廚餘的回收或廚餘的處理，你們環境部會怎麼跟地方來配合？我覺得這個很重要，因為有時候我們會看到這個廚餘可能就直接丟到垃圾車裡面去了。"],["彭部長啓明：對，報告委員，我們現在觀察到有兩種方式，一個是有些縣市像屏東或臺南，他們鼓勵補助一些廚餘機，就整個處理掉，我們也在觀察他們使用的效果是如何、到底有沒有造成一些負面的效益。另外一個，我們有開始在研究黑水虻，看是不是可以蒐集出來，用黑水虻……因為黑水虻未來也有一些SAF（航空永續燃料用油）這樣的處理，所以我們現在希望能找到一些好的方式，可以找到一些方向，接下來就大力的去推，所以現在有看了幾種方案，委員提到的就是現在臺灣遇到的一個問題，因為廚餘如果不好好處理，拿去焚化爐燒，會影響到焚化爐處理的量能。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我覺得應該也要儘快，因為去年委員會也有去地方考察，去看黑水虻，確實這個效能應該還不錯。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：有的公所他們自己本身有在做，但我覺得推廣的好像不是那麼全面，如果還不錯的話，我覺得應該要從環境部自己本身來做推動，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員的建議。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我要提醒部長，關於焚化爐的調度權，我們當時有修法給你們環境部做處理。","接下來請蘇召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林淑芬","王正旭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","陳培瑜","楊曜","盧縣一","蔡易餘","廖偉翔"],"page_start":369,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、勞動部及教育部就「我國推動綠色轉型政策，相關人才培育發展\n與產業政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟\n部、農業部及教育部就「全氟及多氟烷基物質(PFAS)管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化\n物相關管理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢【專題報告綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1145001_00015"}}},{"id":"161328","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161328","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b3b20a951ee2e368da35373469a84e2c35433fb1cebf983d856c4274c4566c6a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"10:28:40 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10:38:11","影片長度":"00:09:31","會議時間":"2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢衝擊強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案」案。\n四、本院委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。\n五、本院委員王美惠等17人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。\n（第一案如未獲議事處來函則不予審查，第二至第五案業經各黨團簽署不復議同意書。）（詢答）\n【5月14日及5月15日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-14","start_time":"2025-05-14T10:28:40+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-14T10:38:11+08:00","duration":571,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[19,20],"id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.76846875,"end":9.109718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.61596875,"end":12.349718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.484718750000003,"end":13.176593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.01971875,"end":33.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.79346875,"end":35.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.860968750000005,"end":35.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.85659375,"end":40.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.73346875,"end":47.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.44534375,"end":50.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.010343750000004,"end":58.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.312843750000006,"end":68.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.93159375,"end":70.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.50096875,"end":71.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.56409375,"end":73.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.57221875,"end":76.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.66034375000001,"end":77.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.31846875000001,"end":83.86596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.33846875,"end":100.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.70721875000001,"end":101.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.92221875000001,"end":104.95971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.24659375,"end":106.22534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.34346875,"end":107.00159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.09409375000001,"end":110.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.57909375000001,"end":118.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.55659375,"end":128.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.84221875000001,"end":136.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.19534375,"end":145.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.81409375,"end":146.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.18096875,"end":149.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.40846875,"end":175.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.03721875000002,"end":183.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.44096875000002,"end":201.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.26096875000002,"end":210.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.28909375,"end":213.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.43221875,"end":215.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.74409375000002,"end":216.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.95909375000002,"end":217.29659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.87034375000002,"end":218.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.73096875000002,"end":219.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.89534375000002,"end":221.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.32971875,"end":221.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.36346875,"end":222.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.72596875000002,"end":224.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.41346875000002,"end":226.15596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.71284375000002,"end":230.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.94846875000002,"end":237.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.69846875000002,"end":241.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.54596875000001,"end":242.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.18284375000002,"end":243.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.14471875,"end":245.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.33846875,"end":251.01284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.31659375,"end":259.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.47971875,"end":261.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.81284375,"end":262.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.92659375,"end":264.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.90096875,"end":272.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.38096875,"end":282.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.51096875,"end":278.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.65409375,"end":279.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.85596875000005,"end":285.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.35346875,"end":287.02409375},{"speaker"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因為新核能的這些技術還在等待這個商轉期所以這個發展的過程可能我們還是需要關注這些相關技術的一個發展"},{"start":128.479,"end":143.41,"text":"因為這是未來講實在話現在核能全世界都把它歸類成綠能而且你看那個福島它也是重新再起那為什麼說台電一直虧損年年你就是用因為講實在話以核養綠是對的但是"},{"start":147.513,"end":170.608,"text":"現在就是你綠能也接不上然後你核燃油全部都到齊那講實在話我們希望說這個人員的部分是非常重要因為媒體報導包括阿拉斯加液化天然氣的管線計畫需要耗費440億美元差不多新台幣1.3兆來打造1287公里長的輸送管將天然氣送到亞洲"},{"start":176.792,"end":201.558,"text":"那我請問何市長相較於參與投資與興建美國阿拉斯加天然氣的管線為何不繼續沿用傳運的模式擴大向美方來購買天然氣因為管線與傳運兩種天然氣運輸成本的分析比較利弊得失經濟部你們到底有沒有去"},{"start":203.639,"end":220.969,"text":"這個考量過讓社會大眾來做參酌對電價可能有衝擊到底衝擊多少因為你從那裡運輸過來說不定你比那個船運更貴那剛剛其實前面的委員有講你像這個"},{"start":225.455,"end":245.224,"text":"我們這個核能的部分你要是說美國我們給他買一些現在我們幾座核電廠還有一些空間那你要是能夠利用把它好好的運作不會台電虧損年年因為你現在你的綠電你的風電那個價格都是天價"},{"start":246.886,"end":259.286,"text":"你核電是最便宜最乾淨而且不會污染的電你們就晃著說我就是不用我就是一定要用綠電用光電結果你看很多現在都在燒煤炭"},{"start":260.56,"end":277.292,"text":"那個台中啊彰化其實那些很多鄉親包括甚至於桃園周邊你看多嚴重因為他們一直在燒啊我相信台電董事長你很清楚跟委員報告其實我們現在是用天然氣來取代煤做為這個也是一樣有汙染啦對不對"},{"start":279.974,"end":298.325,"text":"這幾年來其實我們台電的火力發電的這些空屋的量已經降到 降了七成左右了所以目前我們也正在加速在做一些機組的太舊換新那這個部分我想也會改善我們台灣的這個那個市長我希望你們要好好的規劃啦"},{"start":299.526,"end":318.285,"text":"長遠的規劃不是一直好像一個坑一樣那這次你要是說不過一千億不夠的話你們說馬上要漲電價那等於是永遠的一個坑嘛那個洞是補不滿的啦要真的要好好的為老百姓來著想現在外面的物價你看一直在飆漲對不對政府是有責任的"},{"start":321.144,"end":329.566,"text":"那個根據核安會的核三廚藝計畫核三廠每部機組每年發電是84億度換言之核三廠二號機每天發電差不多2300萬度啦那根據台電的官方這個數據應該有一些誤解應該是只有75億度而已75億度不是84億度就對了那個"},{"start":345.689,"end":369.963,"text":"因為我這是有根據的根據台電官網各種發電方式之發電成本114年1到3月燃氣每度3.05塊核能每度是1.76塊那核三廠二號機每日發電量除以後若全數改用天然氣發電每天要多發2967萬一年下來發電的成本多了108億"},{"start":375.186,"end":401.008,"text":"這是有根據的啦反觀鄰國你看日本歷經了311事件仍然重新來擁抱核能透過修法在安全的前提下允許再延長核電廠運轉的連線美國日本包括鄰近的韓國都大舉來發展核電難道賴政府的人員政策你們不能通盤檢討嗎"},{"start":402.694,"end":430.569,"text":"那個何次長你們不能夠通盤前逃嗎 問完報告齁 其實就是說整個核能的政策齁 我想不管總統或院長都講得很清楚啦 因為牽涉到整個核能的安全還有核廢料的處理 全世界任何國家都一樣不是只有我們這裡啊 對 但是台灣地小人醜啦 地小人醜所以我們需要特別關注核能安全的問題因為一發生這些相關的這種地震齁這個可能就會影響到整個核"},{"start":431.369,"end":450.311,"text":"核能安全的部分那另外我們核電廠也都已經運作40年了那為什麼鄰近國家他們可以繼續演我們這裡就不行呢你只要把它檢查好安全無力繼續演有什麼問題所以必須要經過一個程序啦我希望說好好的去探討啦"},{"start":451.712,"end":479.827,"text":"我認為說不是你們這樣講就這樣算因為你要為全體老百姓來著想人家為什麼全世界都是用把核電都繼續使用甚至還擴大包括美國都一樣我們為什麼一定要全部把它廢掉廢得綠電 光電 風電而且裡面貪污一堆大家清清楚楚的我們希望說政府要站在老百姓的立場"},{"start":480.487,"end":485.929,"text":"輝達執行長黃連勳來台灣參加2025年台北國際電腦展相關活動有望宣布輝達海外總部在台灣選址的結果那我請問理事長輝達投資台灣是否因為美國關稅而有變數 有沒有"},{"start":505.309,"end":525.126,"text":"我想這個部分應該由輝達的公司你們應該要去了解我們是不是可以期待輝達加碼投資台灣在台設立海外總部輝達其實他目前在台灣這邊跟我們經濟部這邊申請的相關的一些研發的計畫都還持續在進行當中沒有斷"},{"start":529.15,"end":535.335,"text":"那個次長2024年為例喬外資合計台台投資78億美元2023年投資112億美元受到美國關稅戰的影響經濟部預估2025年喬外資投資台灣的金額目標你們有沒有去預估過大概可以多少美元"},{"start":555.056,"end":569.35,"text":"這個部分我想我們都是滾動式在檢討啦因為這個目前這個美國關稅的政策現在大家都還在觀望當中有沒有機會像2024年那樣子我想我們希望能夠突破啦這樣喔 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":675,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（10時28分）謝謝主席，是不是請經濟部何次長還有台電的曾董事長？"],["主席：請何次長、曾董事長。"],["林委員德福：何次長，你好。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["林委員德福：因為美國是臺灣核燃料與重要核能設備的供應國，臺美雙方有簽署核能和平利用合作協定，對不對？"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["林委員德福：美國在台協會谷立言近日表示，在核能方面，美國準備好協助引進既有及新興的技術，例如小型模組化反應爐，也樂意幫助臺灣解決核廢料貯存的挑戰，已經過世的前環保署署長李應元也曾希望美國協助處理臺灣的核廢料。針對核廢料議題，本席希望經濟部與台電等相關部會儘速與美方磋商，修改臺美核能和平利用合作協定，將美方協助臺灣處理核廢料的貯存也納入整個協定之中，以利臺灣未來核能發展。請經濟部和台電把本席的建議帶回去給行政院研究，可以吧？"],["何次長晉滄：我們會研究，因為這些新核能的技術還在等待商轉期，所以發展的過程中，我們還是需要關注這些相關技術的發展。"],["林委員德福：因為這是未來的趨勢，講實在話，現在全世界都把核能歸類成綠能，而且福島也是重新再啟，為什麼台電一直虧損連連？以核養綠是對的，但是現在你們的綠能也接不上，然後核能又全部都到期了，能源的部分是非常重要的。據媒體報導，阿拉斯加液化天然氣管線計畫需要耗費440億美元，差不多新臺幣1.3兆，打造1,287公里長的輸送管，將天然氣送到亞洲，請問何次長，相較於參與投資與興建美國阿拉斯加天然氣的管線，為何不繼續沿用船運的模式擴大向美方購買天然氣？針對管線與船運兩種天然氣運輸成本的分析比較、利弊得失，經濟部到底有沒有考量過，並且讓社會大眾參酌，雖然對電價可能有衝擊，到底衝擊多少？因為從那裡運輸過來說不定比船運更貴。","剛剛其實前面的委員有講，像核能的部分，如果我們跟美國買一些，現在我們這幾座核電廠還有一些空間，你要是能夠利用讓它好好的運作，台電不會虧損連連，因為現在綠電、風電的價格都是天價，核電是最便宜、最乾淨而且不會污染的電，可是你們放著就是不用，就是一定要用綠電、用光電，結果現在很多都在燒煤炭，像臺中、彰化，甚至於桃園周邊，你看多嚴重，因為他們一直在燒，我相信台電董事長也很清楚。"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，其實我們現在是用天然氣來取代煤作為調節、轉型……"],["林委員德福：也是一樣有污染。"],["何次長晉滄：這幾年來，其實台電火力發電的空污量已經降了七成左右，目前我們也正在加速做一些機組的汰舊換新，這個部分也會改善臺灣的空污問題。"],["林委員德福：次長，我希望你們好好的規劃，要有長遠的規劃，不是一直好像一個坑一樣，這次要是1,000億不過的話，你們說馬上要漲電價，等於是永遠的一個坑，那個洞是補不滿的，真的要好好地為老百姓著想，現在外面的物價一直在飆漲，政府是有責任的。根據核安會的核三除役計畫，核三廠每部機組每年發電是84億度，換言之，核三廠2號機每天發電差不多2,300萬度，根據台電的報告……"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，這個數據應該有一些誤解，平均應該是只有75億度而已。"],["林委員德福：75億度，不是84億度就對了，我這是有根據的，根據台電官網各種發電方式之發電成本，114年1到3月燃氣每度3.05塊，核能每度1.76塊，核三廠2號機除役後若全數改用天然氣發電，每天要多花2,967萬，一年下來的發電成本多了108億，這是有根據的啦！反觀鄰國，你看日本歷經了311事件，仍然重新擁抱核能，透過修法，在安全的前提下，允許再延長核電廠運轉的年限，美國、日本，包括鄰近的韓國都大舉發展核電，難道賴政府的能源政策不能通盤檢討嗎？何次長，你們不能夠通盤檢討嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，其實整個核能的政策，我想不管總統或院長都講得很清楚，因為牽涉到核能的安全還有核廢料的處理……"],["林委員德福：全世界任何國家都一樣，不是只有我們這裡啊！"],["何次長晉滄：對，但是臺灣地小人稠，我們需要特別關注核能安全的問題，因為一發生相關地震，可能就會影響到整個核能安全的部分。另外我們核電廠也都已經運作40年了，機組老舊的問題……"],["林委員德福：為什麼鄰近國家他們可以繼續延，我們這裡就不行呢？對不對？你只要把它檢查好，安全無慮……"],["何次長晉滄：要經過一個安全評估跟總體檢……"],["林委員德福：繼續延有什麼問題？"],["何次長晉滄：所以必須要經過一個程序啦！"],["林委員德福：我希望好好地去探討，而不是你們這樣講就這樣算，因為你要為全體老百姓著想，為什麼全世界都繼續使用核電，甚至還擴大，包括美國都一樣，我們為什麼一定要全部廢掉？非得綠電、光電、風電，而且裡面貪污一堆，大家清清楚楚的啦！我們希望政府要站在老百姓的立場。","輝達執行長黃仁勳來臺灣參加2025年臺北國際電腦展相關活動，有望宣布輝達海外總部在臺灣選址的結果，我請問次長，輝達投資臺灣是否因為美國關稅而有變數，有沒有？"],["何次長晉滄：我想這個部分應該由輝達公司來宣布。"],["林委員德福：你們應該要去了解。我們是不是可以期待輝達加碼投資臺灣，在臺設立海外總部？"],["何次長晉滄：不過輝達目前在臺灣跟我們經濟部申請的一些相關研發計畫都還持續在進行當中。"],["林委員德福：還持續，沒有斷？"],["何次長晉滄：對。"],["林委員德福：次長，以2024年為例，僑、外資合計來臺投資78億美元，2023年投資112億美元，受到美國關稅戰的影響，經濟部預估2025年僑、外資投資臺灣的金額目標，你們有沒有預估過，大概可以是多少美元？"],["何次長晉滄：這個部分我們都是滾動式在檢討，因為目前美國關稅的政策大家都還在觀望當中，還沒有……"],["林委員德福：有沒有機會超過2024年的金額？"],["何次長晉滄：我們希望能夠突破啦！"],["林委員德福：這樣，好，謝謝。"],["何次長晉滄：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請張嘉郡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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本市也會密切跟我們國共這裡還有台南市政府啦這樣的一個平台啊 我們要趕快來建立啦好 謝謝好不好那我們地方當然很期待啦這個園區啊 未來會成為我們國內可能最重要的一個科學園區之一啦"},{"start":431.109,"end":442.802,"text":"主委謝謝我們跟主委說你能投一個好球你繼續投啦好不好我們把台南這個地方好好做起來好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":318,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時25分）感謝主席，本席邀請國科會吳主委。"],["主席（葛委員如鈞）：請國科會吳主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：林委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：主委好。主委，我們今天在討論AI基本法，什麼叫基本法？臺灣大約從2000年左右開始，就是學日本定所謂綱領性的法律，既然法律名稱叫基本法，這樣定的就是一些基本政策還有未來施政的方針，就是位階上是比法律看起來更高一點的綱領性地位。主委，你知道我們國家現在一共有多少部基本法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：基本法嗎？"],["林委員俊憲：現在一共有11部，教育基本法、文化基本法、社會福利、環境、原住民、客家、海洋、通訊傳播、科技、新住民，還有最新的叫道路交通安全基本法，你看這11個基本法是我們國家目前的，都是訂基本原則，雖然是提供一個全面的框架，但都是原則性規定，比如說我們今天要訂AI基本法，那AI如何落實在我們的生活？還要等到各業務相關的部會去定自己相關的執行法律。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["林委員俊憲：這樣才是落實下來，所以基本法就是在上面，各相關的業務比如說AI的應用風險，可能就是數發部要定；我們之前在討論的媒體議價法，可能就要數發部去處理相關的法律。所以這11部目前我們國家的基本法沒有一個有指定哪一個部會機關，沒有半個啦！教育基本法的執行機關是不是教育部？不是，基本法就是沒有指定哪一個部會去執行；文化基本法的執行機關也不是文化部，它定的就是一個框架性的原則而已。但是我看目前提出來的版本，這些都在野黨立委同仁的版本，法律名稱都叫基本法，但是其實你看內容都是實際上我們一般法律叫作用法或者是特別法，他們已經寫得很細了，甚至有寫到罰則，基本法哪有寫什麼罰則，還有有的委員版本寫到監管，那是後面相關執行部會要去定的東西嘛！我們今天如果要在國會來討論這個AI基本法，那我們就應該討論它的整體綱要性、未來的政策方針，這樣子才是符合一個基本法的精神。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["林委員俊憲：我不知道主委你的看法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我同意，謝謝委員詳細說明。"],["林委員俊憲：所以如果有立委問你，你就可以了解，我們11個國家基本法沒有一個基本法有指定執行的部會。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["林委員俊憲：這一點給你做參考。","再來，現在所謂的南科四期，就是沙崙生態科學園區，它到底名稱以後要怎麼取？我有點搞不太清楚，南科四期？就是沙崙嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前還沒有南科四期，我們現在是沙崙生態科學園區。"],["林委員俊憲：面積大概多大？"],["吳主任委員誠文：面積我們會逐步調整，現在規劃大概500公頃左右，但是整個區域還會搭配未來市政府的建設。"],["林委員俊憲：主要就是台積電嘛！媒體都這樣寫，應該就是啦！"],["吳主任委員誠文：只要是我們的科技產業，我們都歡迎將來進駐。"],["林委員俊憲：我覺得台積電的1奈米除非設在國外，如果是設在臺灣的話，應該一定是在這裡，不然臺灣哪裡有那麼大的土地？而且臺南準備好了啦，這個位置非常好，就在高鐵站的旁邊，南來北往交通非常便利。500公頃多大你知道嗎？有的工業區也沒有500公頃，500公頃是非常大了，甚至我聽說它旁邊一望無際，至少有到1,100公頃以上，就是附近啦，未來還有個腹地。所以假如你現在開始要做這個沙崙生態科學園區，這是未來台積電1奈米最有可能的地方，應該就在這裡，應該是絕對在這裡，這個園區的計畫行政院應該7月就會通過了，你們7月要報行政院嘛？是不是這樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：預計。"],["林委員俊憲：預計嘛，但是我要請國科會這裡做一個超前部署，因為那個地方就在快速道路台86線的下面，台86線的交通運量已經非常繁忙，它是聯絡高鐵站及市區，還有南關線、歸仁、仁德，所以你現在如果要開發這個園區，有幾條道路一定要趕快去做，第一個，未來一定會產生大量的工程車、大型機具、砂石車等等，絕對會造成交通非常可怕的惡夢，所以你一定要超前部署，包括橋下、包括進出、包括要上台86線的那些道路，交通要趕快來通盤考量，你們有這個計畫吧？"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，我們有這個計畫。"],["林委員俊憲：不然你現在如果這個園區做下去，整個附近包括台86線整條會癱瘓，這必然的啦。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員俊憲：所以這個部分本席也會密切跟國科會這裡還有臺南市政府連繫，這樣的平臺要趕快來建立，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["林委員俊憲：我們地方當然很期待，這個園區未來可能會成為我們國內最重要的一個科學園區之一，好不好？主委，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["林委員俊憲：如同我們葛召委說的，你投了一個好球，你繼續投啦，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員俊憲：我們把臺南這個地方好好做起來，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員質詢，官員請回座。","我們接下來有請陳素月委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,23-1","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳宗憲","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","柯志恩","李昆澤","林俊憲","陳素月","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","葉元之","蔡其昌","劉書彬","萬美玲","張雅琳","郭昱晴","何欣純","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","游顥","徐富癸","吳沛憶","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","范雲","林沛祥","邱若華","廖先翔","許宇甄","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；二、審查委員邱若華等 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那沒關係我先用下一個那個問題好了部長你知道中科院國照的紅種火箭彈最常被詬病的是什麼事情是不是既昂貴又無法發揮應有的效能因為我覺得它最大的被質疑的問題是在穿透力的不足的問題所以我今天想要"},{"start":75.496,"end":87.871,"text":"從你們國防部這個預算解凍案的書面上面我有看到從中科院書面上面提到了紅種火箭彈穿透力測試是參照美軍的MILSTD2105D還有北約的AOP4526對不對我想"},{"start":94.338,"end":97.5,"text":"這個請鐘哥你先報委員是沒有錯好那既然是的話那你們送來的解凍的正式的關係文書這一本的書面報告上面然後你們是參照的標準是AOP4256還是AOP4526呢"},{"start":115.314,"end":126.042,"text":"還是連報告都寫錯因為我在這上面看了你們連最基本的書面報告如果都寫錯的話那我們怎麼能信任國防自主的人力來保衛能夠來保衛我們國家的安全呢你們看一下螢幕嘛"},{"start":132.486,"end":148.485,"text":"到底是4526還是4256呢那整個報告是不是完全的錯誤想要中科院做一個解釋那個應該是4256那個陸軍的報告可能有物質應該是4256但是這一個明明這個圖是4526"},{"start":153.208,"end":158.853,"text":"是4526吧但是你們從頭到尾整個報告都是寫是4256那你們是不是要自己要看一下先看一下整個清楚因為連報告都會寫錯是這個資料我們給陸軍可能後來我們沒有幫陸軍再去檢查因為這個是蠻大的問題耶"},{"start":177.573,"end":181.355,"text":"如果是北約到時候你們再給我一個答案然後AOP如果是4526的標準進行穿透力的測試那我有發現了兩個問題從這個報告上面第一個問題就是如果你們是採用這個2018年發行的第一版但是北約在2022年的時候就有第二版了"},{"start":198.763,"end":202.425,"text":"所以北約都已經根據威脅形態的改變已經重新發了一個新版的標準了那我們國防部和中科院竟然還在用舊版做測試那是一開始就用錯了標準還是整個版本是錯誤的呢還有第二個問題才是最大的問題就是那想請問一下就是說我們現在看螢幕上面的簡報顯示這兩份北約"},{"start":223.653,"end":245.084,"text":"美軍跟北約的技術的文件到底我們是在專業測試上面的標準和指引是什麼呢我看是完全是安全性的測試的標準和指引吧所以中部院現在你們已經自行研發了國造的紅準火箭彈然後現在最被質疑的其實是穿透力不夠的問題但是送來的整個解凍案報告裡面的說明都是針對這兩個測試都是針對安全性的問題"},{"start":252.048,"end":258.653,"text":"根本完全沒有穿透力的指引和標準所以我們再看一下這個簡報下面是中科院你們上面有採取的AOP4526上面的這個文件上面的內容也寫得非常非常的清楚就是要解決彈藥跟裝備受到成型裝藥攻擊的安全性"},{"start":271.101,"end":281.031,"text":"那我們再來看美軍這方面的這個文件上面也是做彈藥的安全的指引的文件那我們這樣從剛才看到現在我們下一個結論這個根本跟穿透力測試根本都無關啊所以我覺得現在如果這兩個彈藥安全的"},{"start":290.72,"end":319.414,"text":"安全性的測試都是跟紅組火箭彈的穿透力根本就是完全沒有關係如果像我平常是我們說穿透力的話是不是應該採用美軍的TOP系列的標準好像會平常是比較多那是不是會比較適合呢那想請中科院說明一下先跟您報告一下關於火箭彈它的軍規標準它用的就是安全測試標準那剛剛委員有講到美軍的那個叫ATP那是它的"},{"start":320.494,"end":337.33,"text":"陸軍訓練準則的他是他的準則標準但是也沒有所謂穿透力測試但是我們的穿透力測試我們做的測試就是我們能完成多少穿透力我們有實際的證據那我們也把穿透力的數字也在報告裡面做顯示那剛剛我們給陸軍的做的專案報告裡面的確"},{"start":341.554,"end":358.893,"text":"標準後來有被誤植那我們沒有幫陸軍檢查出來這是中科院的錯我們會承認所以你們有穿透穿透力的整個的數值嘛是是是到時候再來送到我辦公室來我看一下還有剛才我不斷的提問的話都是跟穿透力有關嘛但是我現在在回歸最基本的安全性那請問部長"},{"start":359.734,"end":362.317,"text":"你如果說為了確保國軍弟兄在戰場上的生命的安全的話那我們這個紅燭火箭彈到底有沒有一些相關安全性的測試我們看一下螢幕上面這些測試我們是不是都已經完整都做完了還是只有做一部分呢"},{"start":377.258,"end":398.314,"text":"所有這些事關地胸安全的部分所以我們剛剛我們講的標準就是安全測試標準所以針對這個安全測試標準我們當然是一定完成才能讓部隊去使用我想一直使用到現在所以現在整個都是做都已經完成了嘛對不對是是是那另外再補充一下我們現在對軍矢鋼板的穿透力我們有很明確的測試到300厘米300mm"},{"start":404.021,"end":410.125,"text":"主席再給我一分鐘一下好 接下來我再問一個國造的無人機上面竟然也出現中國製的零件的發生所以我在想說請教部長為什麼我們國防自主我們自己的國造的無人機上面會有中國製造的零件上面的裝置呢難道我們台灣沒有能力去生產這一種嗎還是零件只有中國才有呢"},{"start":425.916,"end":427.618,"text":"還有我還有發現中科院有發現那個銳約二行上面有中國製的零件嘛目前清查了情況和所有的狀況是怎麼樣呢還有針對零件的供應廠商依照合約要如何處置呢是罰款呢還是解約呢"},{"start":444.358,"end":447.481,"text":"然後因為時間不夠我就一起講一講還有日圓二型的中國零件有兩個一個是通信模組另外一個是SD記憶卡的裝置而且這些通信模組其實都是用在無人機的主鏈路的上面所以主鏈路上面如果有中國製的零件其實會不會對我們未來"},{"start":463.017,"end":466.641,"text":"國軍在實際操作的演練那時候會構成資料傳輸上面的國安危害呢那以後會不會以後無人機飛上去不管偵測到什麼看到什麼其實資料還沒有回傳台灣都已經回傳到對岸了所以我想說這個的話可以請中科院還是部長回答一下嗎"},{"start":482.255,"end":506.816,"text":"這個由鍾惠蘭回答第一個就是這兩型無人機都還沒有量產是在試研制的階段然後我們在試研制階段這個東西是從國外進口的那進口以後我們在進口檢驗的時候發現裡面的確有它的SD卡是中國製的那我們就要求原廠要能更換那我們在台灣我們自己的供應鏈上幫他找到合適的東西協助他來更換而我們從國外進口很多東西雖然"},{"start":507.597,"end":528.967,"text":"我們當時在合約裡面都有這樣明定但是他在製作過程因為我不可能到國外去做製成的茶盒所以都是在進口我們最後檢驗的時候會發現然後我們就協助他更換那也同時協助這個廠商在我們台灣來建立非紅的供應鏈這是我們可以做的也是我們最後能夠確保我們所有量產的東西都沒有中國大陸製品"},{"start":530.872,"end":556.087,"text":"我跟委員報告我想最後總結從官部的立場就是說我們希望所有的這些相關如果能夠在台灣有一個完成的完全的一個製程的話我們就能夠避免那這個部分也是我們在驗收的時候主動發現然後要求更換以後量產我們現在為什麼要建立一個自主的一個供應鏈的一個生產的目的也就是在於這樣子才能夠真正的有效堵決"},{"start":557.407,"end":564.17,"text":"這個中國製的這個這個產品然後來進口這樣子好那我們是希望不要再發生這件事情所以我們想請我想請國防部會後一個月遞交一個書面報告說明近鋒一型還有日元二型這兩款的無人機為什麼會出現中國製的零件還有針對缺失還有供應商這些你們會採取什麼樣的措施和未來"},{"start":582.977,"end":587.788,"text":"萬一投產前你們會如何改善這樣的鏈路系統給本席可以嗎是好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":340,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時21分）謝謝主席，有請國防部顧部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員憶君：部長早。針對國防部送來的預算解凍案中，有一些紅隼火箭彈委製案的細節想要跟部長請教一下。首先我當然要先強調我們是百分之百支持國防自主，請問陸軍今年編了多少預算，要購買中科院自行研發的國造紅隼火箭彈呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我請陸軍參謀長說明。"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，這個我下去再了解一下。"],["林委員憶君：你連編了多少預算都不知道？"],["陳參謀長建義：今年……"],["林委員憶君：沒關係，我先問下一個問題好了。部長，你知道中科院國造的紅隼火箭彈最常被詬病的是什麼嗎？是不是既昂貴又無法發揮應有的效能？我覺得它被質疑的最大問題是穿透力不足的問題。在今天國防部預算解凍案的書面報告當中，我有看到在中科院的書面報告上提到紅隼火箭彈的穿透力測試是參照美軍MILSTD-2105D以及北約AOP-4526對不對？"],["陳參謀長建義：是……"],["顧部長立雄：這部分請中科院先說明。"],["李院長世強：報告委員，是的，沒有錯。"],["林委員憶君：既然是的話，以你們送來的解凍正式關係文書書面報告來看，你們參照的標準究竟是AOP-4256還是AOP-4526呢？還是連報告都寫錯？如果你們連最基本的書面報告都寫錯的話，我們怎麼能信任國防自主的能力能夠保衛國家安全呢？你們看一下螢幕，到底是4526還是4256呢？整個報告是不是完全錯誤？這部分請中科院做一個解釋。"],["李院長世強：應該是4256，陸軍的報告可能有誤植。"],["林委員憶君：你說應該是4256，但是這個圖寫的明明是4526，應該是4526吧！但是你們整個報告從頭到尾都是寫4256，你們自己是不是要先看清楚？為什麼連報告都會寫錯？"],["李院長世強：這個資料是我們給陸軍，可能後來我們沒有再幫陸軍檢查。"],["林委員憶君：這個是蠻大的問題耶！麻煩之後再給我一個答案。如果是按照北約AOP-4526的標準進行穿透力測試，從這份報告我發現了兩個問題：第一個問題，如果你們是採用2018年發行的第一版，但是北約在2022年的時候就有第二版了，也就是說，北約根據威脅型態的改變已經重新發了一個新版的標準，結果國防部和中科院竟然還在用舊版測試，到底是一開始就用錯了標準，還是整個版本是錯誤的呢？第二個問題才是最大的問題，我們現在看螢幕上面的簡報顯示這兩份美軍跟北約的技術文件，到底我們在專業測試上面的標準和指引是什麼呢？我看完全是安全性測試的標準和指引吧！中科院現在已經自行研發國造紅隼火箭彈，現在最被質疑的其實是穿透力不夠的問題，而你們送來的解凍案報告裡面的說明，這兩個測試都是針對安全性的問題，根本完全沒有穿透力的指引和標準。我們再看一下簡報，上面顯示中科院所採取的是AOP-4526的標準，這個文件的內容也寫得非常非常清楚，就是要解決彈藥和裝備受到成形裝藥攻擊的安全性。我們再來看美軍這方面的文件，上面也是彈藥安全指引的文件。從剛才看到現在，我們可以下一個結論，這個根本跟穿透力測試都無關，我覺得這兩個彈藥安全性的測試與紅隼火箭彈的穿透力根本就是完全沒有關係。如果要測試穿透力的話，是不是應該採用美軍的TOP系列的標準？平常好像是採用這種標準比較多，這樣是不是會比較適合呢？想請中科院說明一下。"],["李院長世強：我先跟您報告一下，關於火箭彈的軍規標準，它用的就是安全測試標準，剛剛委員有講到美軍的ATP，那是他們的陸軍訓練準則標準，但是也沒有所謂穿透力測試。關於我們的穿透力測試，我們做的測試就是能完成多少穿透力，這方面我們有實際的證據，同時我們也在報告裡面顯示穿透力的數字。在我們給陸軍的專案報告裡面，的確標準後來有被誤植，我們沒有幫陸軍檢查出來，這是中科院的錯，我們會承認。"],["林委員憶君：所以你們有穿透力的數值嘛！"],["李院長世強：是。"],["林委員憶君：到時候再送到本席辦公室來讓我看一下。"],["李院長世強：好，沒有問題。"],["林委員憶君：剛才我不斷的提問都是跟穿透力有關，現在我再回歸最基本的安全性。請問部長，為了確保國軍弟兄在戰場上的生命安全，紅隼火箭彈到底有沒有一些安全性的相關測試？我們看一下螢幕上面的這些測試，你們是不是都已經完整的做完了？還是只有做一部分？"],["李院長世強：報告委員，所有事關弟兄安全的部分，我們講的標準就是安全測試標準，針對這個安全測試標準，我們當然是一定要完成才能讓部隊去使用，我想一直使用到現在……"],["林委員憶君：所以現在整個都已經完成了對不對？"],["李院長世強：是。另外再補充一下，我們現在對均質鋼板的穿透力有很明確的測試到300mm。"],["林委員憶君：麻煩主席再給我1分鐘。接下來我要問的是，在國造無人機上面竟然也出現中國製的零件，請教部長，我們說要國防自主，為什麼我們自己的國造無人機上面會有中國製造零件的裝置呢？難道臺灣沒有能力生產這種零件嗎？還是零件只有中國才有呢？另外我還發現中科院研發的銳鳶二型上面也有中國製零件，目前清查的情況是怎麼樣呢？依照合約對於零件供應廠商要如何處置呢？是罰款還是解約？因為時間不夠，我就一起講一講，銳鳶二型的中國製零件有兩個，一個是通信模組，另外一個是SD記憶卡的裝置，而且這些通信模組都是用在無人機的主鏈路上面。如果主鏈路上面有中國製的零件，會不會對未來國軍實際操作的演練構成資料傳輸上面的國安危害？會不會以後無人機飛上去，不管偵測到什麼、看到什麼，在資料還沒有回傳臺灣之前都已經回傳到對岸了呢？這部分可以請中科院還是部長回答一下嗎？"],["李院長世強：這部分由中科院來回答。第一個，這兩型無人機都還沒有量產，目前還在試研製的階段，在試研製階段的話，這些東西是從國外進口的，我們在進口檢驗的時候，發現裡面的SD卡的確是中國製的，所以我們就要求原廠要能更換，然後我們在臺灣自己的供應鏈上幫他找到合適的東西，協助他來更換。我們從國外進口很多東西，雖然我們當時在合約裡面都有這樣明定，但是對於製作的過程，因為我不可能到國外去做製程的查核，所以都是在進口後我們最後檢驗的時候發現，然後我們就協助他更換，也同時協助這個廠商在我們臺灣建立非紅的供應鏈，這是我們可以做的，也是我們最後能夠確保我們所有量產的東西都沒有中國大陸製品。"],["顧部長立雄：我跟委員報告，我想做最後的總結，國防部的立場就是我們希望所有相關產品能夠在臺灣有一個完全的製程，這樣我們就能夠避免，那這個部分也是我們在驗收的時候主動發現然後要求更換。關於量產，我們現在為什麼要建立一個自主的生產供應鏈？就是因為這樣才能夠真正有效杜絕中國製的產品進口。"],["林委員憶君：好，我們希望不要再發生這種事情，我想請國防部會後在一個月內遞交一個書面報告給本席，說明勁蜂一型還有銳鳶二型這兩款無人機為什麼會出現中國製的零件、針對這些缺失還有供應商你們會採取什麼樣的措施、在未來投產前你們會如何改善這樣的鏈路系統，可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林憶君委員。","我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時31分）","繼續開會（10時41分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","接下來有請王鴻薇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":40,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-13","speakers":["沈伯洋","陳俊宇","徐巧芯","羅美玲","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王定宇","林憶君","王鴻薇","黃國昌","陳永康","馬文君","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，國防部主管預算凍結案等54案","agenda_id":"1144901_00001"}}},{"id":"161325","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161325","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971be817fa7ead28d078fe24093ee94bb6855433fb1cebf983d8e3ae72de851352f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:17:04 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我們有請部長請彭部長部長好 部長我今天要跟你討論環評的議題這個台電有一個大甲溪光明計畫 抽蓄水利的開發案"},{"start":25.868,"end":42.947,"text":"這一個案子請問部長你有所瞭解嗎我知道 他現在是在補正在審補正在審嗎這一個案子呢 這個環團已經站出來抗議了那主要是 大家可以看一下他這一個案子呢 他是要透過炸山"},{"start":44.415,"end":66.827,"text":"這個開挖這個整個隧道高達10公里喔然後去貫穿這個德基谷關這個兩座水庫喔那它位處的位置呢又在這個地震帶喔然後大家都知道這個中橫喔事實上它整個地質喔非常的敏感而且脆弱之前還曾經發生過2004年的七二水災喔當時水災發生的時候"},{"start":73.01,"end":90.624,"text":"其實整個包括這個大甲溪沿線的青山電廠全毀德基天倫谷關發電廠也通通都遭到溪水的侵入那更不用說現在的中橫事實上它都還沒有雙向通車都是變道"},{"start":91.565,"end":94.348,"text":"我曾經擔任過台中市的副市長也曾經到和平所以沿路這樣子上去坦白講我看到的是有點覺得觸目驚心就是那一帶的這個地質狀況的確是像環團所講到他的確是敏感而且脆弱但是今天"},{"start":111.145,"end":115.429,"text":"我們竟然號稱這個綠電是要在那個地方就是要去炸山這麼敏感脆弱的地方還要再炸山然後呢去標榜說我們發展出來的是綠電這個我要請教部長這樣子的一個開發案作為環境部你真的認為適當嗎"},{"start":135.823,"end":154.278,"text":"包委員 那天的環評會議據我了解不過那天不是我主持的因為還在初審當中環評委員有提出斷層地質還有生態的問題所以不是只有環保團體有意見其實環評委員也有意見要他們補正說明再審所以這個其實是已經很清楚了"},{"start":154.861,"end":173.252,"text":"好 我覺得這個案子 這個環境部你要做好你的把關的角色因為在第一次的這個環評的意見裡面其實就已經很充分的說明了就是說要強化地質調查跟安全評估作業但是呢 坦白講在第二次的這個環評審查裡面"},{"start":175.854,"end":198.582,"text":"好像針對這個部分並沒有太多的琢磨跟說明好像就直接忘記這件事情然後談的都是土石方管理放置的問題但是我認為最前端的整個地質調查跟安全評估這個才是重中之重站在環境部的角度如果今天有一個開發案"},{"start":199.602,"end":214.525,"text":"它是破壞環境而且難以回復這個問題本質才是最嚴重的土方那個是後續已經開發堆置的問題所以我要就教部長的就是說這個部分第一階段環評的結論為什麼在第二階段環評的時候這個這麼關鍵的地質調查報告反而不見了有啊 它現在進入二階二階的時候它就要加強這個地質的調查的結果所以的確是被要求要做這些事情的"},{"start":227.745,"end":245.356,"text":"但是他沒有提出來的時候怎麼可以進到二階呢就是說這個部分他有一個完整的地質調查跟安全評估的報告出來嗎因為一階的時候是要求這個部分是重點的跟委員報告因為這個是屬於在地質敏感區所以依照地質法他本來就要做一些地質評估跟調查"},{"start":246.016,"end":249.921,"text":"那這個是有放在他附錄裡面那除了說委員有去審視這個附錄的完整地址調查報告以外我們環境部也會要求就是我們會委託一個專業的地址計事公會來提供第三方的意見然後供委員來做參考好"},{"start":261.253,"end":281.108,"text":"這個部分我覺得是非常重要而且是環境部應該去把關的地方因為就這個案子來講他曾經在很早年提出來但是後來其實就已經停擺到2016年的時候是因為缺電了坦白講是因為缺電經濟部今天經濟部也有代表但是產業署不是能源署"},{"start":282.549,"end":309.383,"text":"經濟部行政院要求台電要再重新送這個計畫的那也就是代表是缺電的情況底下才啟動的但是這個跟我們所標榜號稱的綠電我覺得跟差太遠了你所謂的水利發電應該是運用自然的地形它可以達到這樣的一個條件你去發電 這個我都非常贊成但你今天明明達不到這個條件你還要去炸山"},{"start":310.564,"end":317.968,"text":"你覺得仁定勝天還要炸山而且在這個地質脆弱敏感的地區炸山之後想要完成這個條件我覺得這個真的是很蠢的一個計畫 我必須這樣子講違反自然環境 破壞自然環境更重要的是它的發電量才多少 大家來看一下"},{"start":329.548,"end":344.577,"text":"他這樣子大費周章整個去開發花了好幾百億而且可能到2034年才會完成的這項計畫以為可以弄得人定勝天結果他的發電量原本規劃的才多少"},{"start":348.048,"end":354.092,"text":"368MW其實也才這樣而已那我覺得更離譜的是怎麼會環評大會裡面呢開完之後說哎呀你要擴大你的開發的規模從原來的368MW要增加到740MW有這種環評大會嗎是怎麼開的"},{"start":366.713,"end":371.079,"text":"為什麼可以有這樣的一個主張過去很罕見 從來沒有看過我們開發量體是越小越好結果有環評大會開完之後怎麼會這樣子呢要求是要加大它的整個開發規模呢"},{"start":381.533,"end":385.858,"text":"其實這個案子因為是依法要進行二階的環評那二階的環評中間會有一個範疇界定的會議那範疇界定會議除了評估的項目跟範圍之外還有一個很重要就是要來討論替代方案所以在這個範疇界定會議的時候有委員有提出說你這樣子的一個開發計畫"},{"start":399.654,"end":404.616,"text":"如果說你要進行開發你要不要考慮就是做規模的替代因為如果是要一次施工的話他希望你就可以的庫容的一個範圍裡面去做一個最高的一個規模的一個評估但是這只是委員的建議那台電他也說他會回去評估所以他"},{"start":416.641,"end":440.857,"text":"其實是依照飯頭界定委員的建議去評估因為就我們了解他其實像剛剛委員關心的炸山的問題因為他要開新設一個投水隧道那個10公里那不管你是368MW或者是610MW那都是要蓋那條隧道那既然都要蓋那條隧道委員說你的這個開發是不是有可能在規模上提高請他們去評估但是並沒有說一定要他們接受"},{"start":441.567,"end":445.549,"text":"但是現在好像這個就變成結論了而且也一直這樣子講我要講的是說你現在又破壞環境然後又是這樣的一個經費然後你其實換來的大概最多也是610MW的一個發電量然後會造成生態上面的耗竭就一去不復返"},{"start":463.352,"end":483.667,"text":"這樣子的一個開發案我真的覺得經濟部審審吧不要用破壞環境一方面告訴大家說不缺電然後一方面又想要破壞環境然後來換得這樣的一個發電量事實上經濟部你有很多的選擇今天經濟部有代表來雖然不是能源署是不是也上來回去一定要轉達是能源署是不是好 那能源署趕快上來這一個案子"},{"start":492.096,"end":495.349,"text":"我看錯 我以為今天是產業發展署 來 能源署上來"},{"start":499.525,"end":522.78,"text":"這樣的一個開發案是你們主導的而且我知道是由上面交代要台電去開發的是行政院的定調來這個我們能源署的代表這個案子剛剛其實環境部的態度也很清楚覺得你們這個其實對於生態的一個影響其實是非常大的恐怕會造成生態的耗竭你們這個案子還要硬推下去嗎"},{"start":524.656,"end":545.571,"text":"謝謝委員的意見 因為這個案子 我想我們委員的建議我們會整體納入考量啦我在這邊給你一個具體的建議啦 如果你真的缺電的話昨天立法院才剛通過河山廠 它其實可以研議 這個也是你的選項那河山廠的發電量 二號街發電量多少 來你說你知不知道"},{"start":551.988,"end":572.595,"text":"951MW我要讓各位看到的就是和三長二號機的演繹951MW不必炸山不必破壞也不會造成生態的耗竭而且立法院昨天已經通過了讓你經濟部可以去審慎的評估在安全的情況底下讓他可以發電這個就是你其中一個選項"},{"start":573.795,"end":599.813,"text":"你現在因為缺電特別是你夜間缺電所以你想辦法要去大甲溪又要去乍山然後要來弄一個你這個光明抽蓄水力發電你這個又耗時又破壞生態發電量又小經濟部你真的回去好好思考一下當你有選擇權的時候有沒有要一意孤行一定要破壞生態來達到你這樣的一個發電的目標"},{"start":601.236,"end":614.658,"text":"謝謝委員的意見就是說我們在做整體的電力供需的時候一定會做全面的考量不管是對生態或是法規的規定那還是謝謝委員那委員的意見我們會做整體的評估"},{"start":615.339,"end":638.966,"text":"好我希望今天可以把這個我在這邊質詢的意見帶回去我覺得整個政府的能源政策你要從國家長遠跟永續的角度來探討特別我們今天講的是環境部的議題我們絕對不接受你是用破壞生態炸山在地質敏感地區然後硬要去弄一個其實發電量也沒有很大的"},{"start":639.666,"end":654.197,"text":"這樣的一個新的這個水利發電計畫這個違反了我們對於綠電的精神也違反了我們對於環境永續保護的精神所以我要求部長在這一個如果這個經濟部執意要繼續往下這個開發的時候我想你們在二階環評的時候你們就是真正可以為民眾就是守護住我們的整個環境永續的一個很重要的單位這個部分我希望部長"},{"start":668.788,"end":674.398,"text":"你這個把你的專業拿出來就是好好的嚴格的審議 好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":684,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時17分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，我今天要跟你討論環評的議題，台電有一個大甲溪光明抽蓄水力計畫的開發案，請問部長這個案子你有所了解嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道，它現在是補正再審。"],["王委員育敏：補正再審嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員育敏：這個案子環團已經站出來抗議，大家可以看一下，這一個案子是要透炸山開挖隧道長達10公里，然後貫穿德基、谷關兩座水庫，而且它位處於地震帶。大家都知道整個中橫的地質非常敏感且脆弱，2004年還曾發生過七二水災，當時水災發生的時候，其實大甲溪沿線的青山電廠全毀，德基、天輪、谷關發電廠也通通都遭到溪水的侵入，更不用說現在的中橫都還沒有雙向通車，都是便道。我曾經擔任過臺中市副市長，也曾經到和平去，沿路這樣子上去，坦白講，我看到是有點覺得怵目驚心，就是那一帶的地質狀況，的確是像環團所講的敏感而且脆弱。但是今天我們竟然號稱綠電要在那個地方炸山，這麼敏感脆弱的地方還要再炸山，然後標榜我們發展出來的是綠電！我要請教部長，作為環境部，這樣子的開發案你真的認為適當嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那天的環評會議不是我主持的，不過據我了解目前還在初審當中，環評委員有提出斷層、地質及生態的問題，所以不是只有環保團體有意見，其實環評委員也有意見，要他們補正說明再審，所以這其實已經很清楚了。"],["王委員育敏：針對這一個案子，環境部要做好把關的角色，其實在第一次的環評意見裡面就已經很充分的說明了，就是要強化地質調查及安全評估作業，但是在第二次的環評審查裡面，針對這個部分並沒有太多的著墨跟說明，好像就直接忘記這件事情，然後談的都是土石方管理、放置的問題，但是我認為最前端的整個地質調查跟安全評估才是重中之重！站在環境部的角度，如果今天有一個開發案是破壞環境而且難以回復，這個問題本質才是最嚴重的，土方那個是後續已經開發堆置的問題。所以我要就教部長的就是，關於第一階段環評的結論，為什麼在第二階段環評的時候這麼關鍵的地質調查報告反而不見了？"],["彭部長啓明：有啊，現在進入二階的時候，它就要加強地質調查的結果，所以的確是被要求要做這些事情的。"],["王委員育敏：但是它沒有提出來的時候怎麼可以到二階呢？這個部分有一個完整的地質調查跟安全評估報告出來嗎？因為一階的時候要求這個部分是重點。"],["呂副司長雅雯：跟委員報告，因為這個在地質敏感區，所以依照地質法，它本來就要做一些地質評估跟調查，這個有放在它的附錄裡面，除了委員有去審視附錄的完整地質調查報告以外，我們環境部也會要求，就是我們會委託一個專業的地質技師公會提供第三方意見供委員做參考。"],["王委員育敏：好，這個部分我覺得非常重要，而且是環境部應該去把關的地方，因為就這個案子來講，它曾經在很早年提出來，但是後來其實就已經停辦，到2016年的時候是因為缺電了，坦白講是因為缺電，今天經濟部也有代表，但是是產業署、不是能源署，經濟部、行政院要求台電要再重新送這個計畫，那也就代表是在缺電的情況底下才啟動的，但是我覺得這個跟我們所標榜、號稱的綠電差太遠，所謂的水力發電應該是運用自然的地形，它可以達到這樣的條件，你去發電我都非常贊成，但你今天明明達不到這個條件，你還要去炸山，你覺得人定勝天、還要炸山，而且在地質脆弱敏感的地區炸山之後想要完成這個條件，我覺得這個真的是很蠢的一個計畫！我必須這樣子講，違反自然環境、破壞自然環境。","更重要的是，它的發電量才多少？大家來看一下，它這樣子大費周章去開發、花了好幾百億而且可能到2034年才會完成的這項計畫，以為可以弄得人定勝天，結果它的發電量原本規劃的才多少？368MW，其實也才這樣而已。那我覺得更離譜的是，怎麼會有環評大會開完之後說，你要擴大你的開發規模，從原來的368MW要增加到740MW，有這種環評大會嗎？是怎麼開的？為什麼可以有這樣的一個主張？過去很罕見、從來沒有看過，一般開發量體是越小越好，結果有環評大會開完之後要求加大它的開發規模，怎麼會這樣子呢？"],["呂副司長雅雯：跟委員報告，因為這個案子依法要進行二階的環評，而二階環評中間會有一個範疇界定的會議，範疇界定會議除了評估的項目跟範圍之外，還有一個很重要的就是要討論替代方案，所以在這個範疇界定會議的時候，有委員提出針對這樣子的一個開發計畫如果要進行開發，要不要考慮做規模的替代，因為如果要一次施工的話，他希望可以就庫容的範圍去做一個最高規模的評估，但這只是委員的建議，台電也說它會回去評估，所以它其實是依照範疇界定委員的建議去評估。","就我們的了解，像剛剛委員關心的炸山問題，因為它要新設一個頭水隧道10公里，不管是368MW或者是610MW，都要蓋那一條隧道，既然都要蓋那條隧道，因此委員說這個開發是不是有可能在規模上提高，請他們去評估，但是並沒有一定要他們接受。"],["王委員育敏：但是現在好像這個就變成結論了，而且也一直這樣子講。我要講的是，你現在又破壞環境，然後又是這樣的經費，其實換來的大概最多也是610MW發電量，但是會造成生態上面的浩劫、一去不復返。這樣子的一個開發案我真的覺得經濟部省省吧，不要用破壞環境……一方面告訴大家不缺電、一方面又想要破壞環境來換得這樣的發電量。事實上，經濟部你有很多的選擇，今天經濟部有代表來，雖然不是能源署，是不是也上來？回去一定要轉達。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：是能源署。"],["王委員育敏：是能源署，是不是？"],["主席：對。"],["王委員育敏：好，那能源署趕快上來！這一個案子……"],["主席：趕快上來。"],["王委員育敏：我看錯，我以為今天是產業發展署來，能源署上來。這樣的一個開發案是你們主導的，而且我知道是由上面交代要台電去開發的、是行政院的定調。能源署的代表，這個案子剛剛環境部的態度也很清楚，覺得你們這個對於生態的影響其實非常大、恐怕會造成生態的浩劫，你們這個案子還要硬推下去嗎？"],["鄭副組長如閔：謝謝委員的意見，這個案子我想委員的建議我們會整體納入考量，因為……"],["王委員育敏：我在這邊給你一個具體的建議，如果你真的缺電的話，昨天立法院才剛通過核三廠可以延役，這個也是你的選項，核三廠2號機的發電量多少，你知不知道？"],["鄭副組長如閔：九百多MW。"],["王委員育敏：對，951MW，我要讓各位看到的就是，核三廠2號機的延役、951MW，不必炸山、不必破壞、也不會造成生態的浩劫，而且立法院昨天已經通過了，讓你們經濟部可以審慎評估，在安全的情況底下讓它可以發電，這個就是你其中一個選項。你現在因為缺電，特別是夜間缺電，所以你想辦法要去大甲溪、又要去炸山，然後要來弄這個光明抽蓄水力發電，你這個又耗時、又破壞生態、發電量又小，經濟部真的回去好好思考一下，當你有選擇權的時候，有沒有要一意孤行、一定要破壞生態來達到你這樣的發電目標？"],["鄭副組長如閔：謝謝委員的意見，我們在做整體電力供需的時候一定會做全面的考量，不管是對生態或是法規的規定，還是謝謝委員，委員的意見我們會做整體的評估。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望今天可以把我在這邊質詢的意見帶回去，我覺得整個政府的能源政策要從國家長遠跟永續的角度來探討，特別我們今天講的是環境部的議題，我們絕對不接受你用破壞生態、炸山、在地質敏感地區，然後硬要去弄一個其實發電量也沒有很大的新水力發電計畫，這個違反了我們對於綠電的精神、也違反了我們對於環境永續保護的精神。所以我要求部長，如果經濟部執意要繼續往下開發，我想在二階環評的時候，你們就是真正可以為民眾守護住整個環境永續的一個很重要單位，這個部分我希望部長把你的專業拿出來，好好的、嚴格的審議，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝部長、謝謝王委員。","委員會這邊宣告：蘇清泉召委質詢詢答結束，我們休息10分鐘。","接下來請黃秀芳委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林淑芬","王正旭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","陳培瑜","楊曜","盧縣一","蔡易餘","廖偉翔"],"page_start":369,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、勞動部及教育部就「我國推動綠色轉型政策，相關人才培育發展\n與產業政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟\n部、農業部及教育部就「全氟及多氟烷基物質(PFAS)管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化\n物相關管理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢【專題報告綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1145001_00015"}}},{"id":"161324","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161324","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b30ba967b5fd23bf7a35373469a84e2c35433fb1cebf983d8c9b4925af52c8bb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"10:15:43 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主寫的單位是經濟部還是組織總署根文報告我們裡面載明的是經濟部為主管單位經濟部主導這個條例草案的百分之多少"},{"start":68.301,"end":88.395,"text":"其實我們是負責整個草案條文內容那相關的這些各部會的預算的編列的部分是院這邊會來協調好來這個次長跟主席長我也想請教當時我們寫了這個條例特別條例主要是為了因應美中跟美中台的這所謂的關稅的問題要對台灣的產業跟對台灣的整體經濟造成的衝擊來做因應所以我們設置了這個所謂的特別條例好"},{"start":98.722,"end":114.216,"text":"那後來因為大家覺得原來的預算規模太小所以行政院長就擴大了整體的預算規模來到4100億那4100億裡頭有包含了關稅因應的大概是930億國土任性有1500億跟整個社會支持的1670億左右大概是這樣的一個規模"},{"start":124.605,"end":143.972,"text":"所以我們要再來談到剛剛的幾位委員的詢問其實我看到把這個版本的名稱整理起來我覺得蠻好玩的其實我從小到大念中文我突然發現我們現在的委員們的提案或者是黨團的提案那個中文我看不太懂"},{"start":145.285,"end":174.136,"text":"比如說國民黨的提案是因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例我第一次聽到消費要韌性就是要開錢一直開錢堅持開錢那種就對了是不是這樣意思我不知道因為這個條例是這樣寫那民眾黨呢就直接把國土安全把它去掉就直接寫韌性這個還稍微可以理解喔所以這個條文名稱呢就讓我覺得非常詭異"},{"start":175.492,"end":193.779,"text":"但是條文內容更好玩了來 條文內容包括剛剛我的上一位非常資深的委員的提問內容我第一次坐在這裡很認真的聽完他的所有的質詢我只有四個字叫瞠目結舌什麼叫瞠目結舌國民黨的黨版把台電的一千億的撥補把它砍掉民眾黨也把台電的撥補把它砍掉"},{"start":203.612,"end":219.824,"text":"那台電的撥補砍掉要台電做兩件事情一個是全面重啟核電要蓋六座的機組第二個承諾到2028年以前不能漲電價這個台電董事長你也可以上來"},{"start":221.922,"end":247.16,"text":"剛剛的談話昨天通過的核管法處理的不是只有核三的研議喔是全部廚藝的要再運轉喔所以會有核一核二的再運轉跟核三的研議要處理如果依照剛剛講的賴委員說我給你一兆八千億啊你要不要 叫何康你為什麼不要他給你一兆八千億"},{"start":249.724,"end":265.191,"text":"哪有這種事情然後一兆八千億核能安全一兆八千億是投資的我要自己賺回來啊是啊 我先不要說那個核能安全誰負責 美國負責他最少講了超過20次美國負責台灣的核能安全叫美國來幫你負責我真的只有四個字 瞠目結舌"},{"start":276.363,"end":297.04,"text":"核能安全是我們自己要負的責任你要蓋一個機組或者是一個機組要研議當然是自己要負責他一直跟你講美國負責美國誰來跟你負責賴士寶說了算嗎我也不懂我們兩個禮拜前到美國去跟美國的商務部有進行會談進行見面"},{"start":299.468,"end":309.071,"text":"我們也很清楚問他SMR在美國的商轉的情況如何美國商務部很清楚告訴我們2030之前都不可能商轉好 你一直在講核能研議在運轉我就簡單問一個問題核廢料怎麼處理你核一除役了機組拆掉了你怎麼樣再運轉核廢料放哪裡核廢料要怎麼處理"},{"start":328.989,"end":341.838,"text":"當台電的供電系統的韌性不就是一個國土安全的一環嗎你們同意我的看法嗎澳元那個確實就是電網的韌性確實是國土安全的一環"},{"start":343.71,"end":360.355,"text":"國土安全 能源的供給我們一直在講你要撥補給這些中小企業要撥補給這些產業受到的影響當你沒有能源安全當你沒有這個電網的韌性的時候你撥補這些有什麼用呢好 那台電的這個一千億的撥補被講成這樣 然後又要你們承諾到2028之前都不能漲電價"},{"start":372.298,"end":391.509,"text":"又不讓你賺錢又不讓你漲電價政府又不能撥補然後又要叫你再花一兆八千億去蓋六座的核能電廠然後核廢料還不知道放哪裡我第一次看到這樣子不負責任的在野黨然後自己以為自己非常偉大我真的不太懂所以"},{"start":396.348,"end":421.475,"text":"我實在不知道這個所謂的特別條例裡面 他們一直講台電的撥補不要 國土任性不要然後普發現金我剛剛講那個請國防部來 那個台電可以先回座來經濟部次長可以先回座 國防部跟海委會國土任性 國土的安全 國家防衛的安全"},{"start":423.208,"end":435.366,"text":"會比普發現金更為不足道嗎請兩位回答我我的價值觀是生命安全的保障是無價之寶它更重要"},{"start":436.3,"end":453.429,"text":"所以我要跟所有的鄉親報告請了解這個更重要我們要保護大家的生命安全另外委員追加預算是假議題因為依據預算法第79條要編追加預算總共有四個條件第一個依法律增加業務"},{"start":454.229,"end":473.278,"text":"第二依法律增設新機關第三因重大事故軍費超過法定預算第四依有關法律應補列所以還是需要法律換句話說這個法律如果過我們編出來的預算也可以叫做特別預算也可以叫做追加預算一定要有法律所以那是假議題"},{"start":474.38,"end":500.948,"text":"好 這個管主委以前我們都叫你管媽 管委員你非常清楚立法院的運作國防部次長您大概也非常的清楚在整個國家安全上面台灣所遭受到的問題次長 這個是國防部未來的這個美國的次長Kobe他講說他希望台灣的軍費要編列接近GDP的10%"},{"start":503.188,"end":531.935,"text":"我們做不做得到報告委員我想這個每一個國家在訴說這個GDP的時候事實上每個國家財政預渡都不一樣以我們國家為例我們還要視我們國家財政預渡來看我們的國防預算所以目前來講我們總統已經講了我們的GDP如果我們國防預算到3%我們是非常感謝國人的支持我們朝這方面努力國防預算這個東西是一個防衛決心的一個"},{"start":533.123,"end":546.817,"text":"最佳的一個表現所以這一點我想美國他在這個DOD我也才到這個美國的國防部裡面去他特別強調如果說我們把這樣子的一個國防預算提高到3%的話"},{"start":548.419,"end":577.68,"text":"足以證明你們自我防衛的決心讓全世界能夠看到那這是非常重要所以我們在原來的預算裡頭還想盡辦法要到3%在特別條例在國土安全任性的這個部分我們只編列1500億我都還嫌太少我每次看到海委會售出來的那些影片照片我們的海巡兄弟這麼辛苦"},{"start":579.577,"end":604.939,"text":"結果設備是不足的熱顯相儀也不足夜視系統也沒有海下的系統也沒有誰來幫他們的生命安全做保障我們的軍官兄弟們起飛戰機起飛降落在各個地方保衛台灣疆域的安全一千五百億的這個國土安全任性的預算是遠遠不足的"},{"start":606.042,"end":634.054,"text":"其實我覺得我們應該要把我們自己捍衛台灣的決心展現出來喔所以我是全力支持國防部跟海巡單位在這個預算的編列上面我其實覺得如果可以的話我希望把預算做一些調整這個1500億其實是應該要適度的增加喔那我想在這個特別條例上面"},{"start":635.134,"end":651.77,"text":"我們很期待對於國家安全的保障我們其實應該多做一點事啊是的國家安全保障至少不是只有說你去跟美國買軍購你有很多的國防產業供應鏈其實也是經濟的一環啊是的"},{"start":655.093,"end":679.511,"text":"這個都是環環相扣的喔所以我在期待這件事情我其實覺得應該站在一個更理性的角度來看待站在一個對於國家防衛對於國家整體經濟振興的角度來看待我會全力的支持這個條例的通過那我也希望在國防軍備的預算上面能夠來適度的增加喔 以上可以給我30秒嗎好來我覺得這個"},{"start":684.265,"end":702.87,"text":"國防一算真的需要大家支持國軍官兵每天面對會之地的衝突我憑良講我做一個老兵五十年我看到我們的學弟學妹不辭勞苦在海上在空中"},{"start":704.836,"end":715.647,"text":"請問國人給他支持是什麼就是國防預算的增加讓他在海上應付灰災地災衝突的時候他無憂無慮他能有信心去面對我們這樣威脅"},{"start":719.425,"end":737.614,"text":"1500億只不過是一個表徵但重點是國人對我們的支持是非常重要的所以我很感慨講這個事情希望大家在這次的急迫性的建案來講灰色地帶的建案是可以馬上降低我們國軍官兵應對灰色地帶衝突的負荷"},{"start":739.043,"end":767.221,"text":"這個是對我們國家安全是一個很好的保障希望大家給予我們支持謝謝委員這個次長我剛剛聽你這樣講我其實眼淚都快掉下來齁全世界都已經在發展無人載具喔結果我們在這個預算上面編列了無人機的預算還被砍掉我真的對台灣的整體安全感到擔憂啦那也對於我們的國軍兄弟保家衛國的這樣的一個行為深深感到敬佩喔謝謝"},{"start":769.268,"end":769.29,"text":"好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":640,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（10時15分）謝謝主席。我還是要懇請主席能稍微控制一下時間，剛剛海委會主委報告時你就一直按鈴，其他委員講話你就不按鈴，亂問一通。我請主計長跟經濟部次長。"],["主席：請主計長、何次長。"],["邱委員議瑩：待會請海委會跟國防部，請兩個單位準備一下。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：我想請教兩位，「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」主責、主寫的單位是經濟部還是主計總處？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們裡面載明的是經濟部為主管單位。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以經濟部為主管單位，經濟部主導這個條例草案的百分之多少？"],["何次長晉滄：其實我們是負責整個草案條文內容，相關各部會的預算編列，這部分是院會來協調。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，次長跟主計長，我想請教，當時我們寫了這個特別條例，主要是為了因應美中跟美中臺的關稅問題，對臺灣產業跟對臺灣整體經濟造成的衝擊來做因應，所以我們設置了這個特別條例，後來因為大家覺得原來的預算規模太小，所以行政院長就擴大了整體預算規模來到4,100億，4,100億包含關稅因應大概是930億、國土韌性有1,500億，及整個社會支持的1,670億左右，大概是這樣一個規模。","再來談到剛剛幾位委員的詢問，其實把這個版本的名稱整理起來，我覺得蠻好玩的，我從小到大念中文，我突然發現現在委員們的提案，或者是黨團的提案，那個中文我看不太懂。比如說，國民黨的提案是「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例」，我第一次聽到消費要有韌性，就是要花錢、一直花錢、堅持花錢就對了，是不是這樣的意思？我不知道，因為這個條例是這樣寫。民眾黨直接把「國土安全」去掉，就直接寫「韌性」，這個還稍微可以理解，所以這個條文名稱就讓我覺得非常詭異，但是條文內容更好玩了。","條文內容包括剛剛我上一位非常資深委員的提問內容，我第一次坐在這裡很認真的聽完他所有質詢，我只有四個字叫「瞠目結舌」，什麼叫瞠目結舌？國民黨的黨版把台電1,000億的撥補砍掉，民眾黨也把台電的撥補砍掉；台電的撥補砍掉，要台電做兩件事情，一個是全面重啟核電，要蓋六座的機組。第二個，承諾到2028年以前不能漲電價。台電董事長也可以上來，剛剛的談話、昨天通過的核管法處理的不是只有核三的延役，而是全部除役的要再運轉，所以會有核一、核二再運轉，跟核三的延役要處理。如果依照剛剛講的，賴委員說給你1兆8,000億，你要不要？這麼「好康」你為什麼不要？他給你1兆8,000億，哪有這種事情？然後1兆8,000億核能安全……"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，1兆8,000億是投資，我要自己賺回來啊！"],["邱委員議瑩：是啊，我先不要說那個。核能安全誰負責？美國負責。他最少講超過二十次美國負責，臺灣的核能安全叫美國幫你負責，我真的只有四個字「瞠目結舌」，核能安全是我們自己要負的責任，你要蓋一個機組，或者一個機組要延役，當然是自己要負責，他一直跟你講美國負責，美國誰來跟你負責？賴士葆說了算嗎？我也不懂。","我們兩個禮拜前到美國跟美國商務部進行會談、見面，我們也很清楚問他，SMR在美國商轉的情況如何？美國商務部很清楚告訴我們2030年之前都不可能商轉。你一直在講核能延役再運轉，我就簡單問一個問題，核廢料怎麼處理？核一除役了，機組拆掉了，你怎麼再運轉？核廢料要放哪裡？核廢料要怎麼處理？台電供電系統的韌性，不就是國土安全的一環嗎？你們同意我的看法嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，電網的韌性確實是國土安全的一環。"],["邱委員議瑩：國土安全、能源的供給，我們一直在講，你要撥補給這些受到影響的中小企業、產業，當你沒有能源安全、沒有電網韌性的時候，撥補這些有什麼用呢？台電1,000億的撥補被講成這樣，又要你們承諾到2028年前都不能漲電價，又不讓你賺錢、又不讓你漲電價、政府又不能撥補，然後又要叫你再花1兆8,000億去蓋六座核能電廠，核廢料還不知道放哪裡。我第一次看到這樣不負責任的在野黨，自己以為自己非常偉大，我真的不太懂。他們所謂的特別條例裡面，一直講不要台電的撥補，不要國土韌性，然後普發現金。","我請國防部上來，台電、經濟部次長可以先回座。國防部跟海委會，國土韌性、國土安全、國家防衛的安全會比普發現金更微不足道嗎？請兩位回答我。"],["管主任委員碧玲：我的價值觀是生命安全的保障是無價之寶，它更重要，所以我要跟所有鄉親報告，請了解這個更重要，我們要保護大家的生命安全。另外委員，追加預算是假議題，因為依據預算法第七十九條要編追加預算，總共有四個條件，第一，依法律增加業務；第二，依法律增設新機關；第三，因重大事故經費超過法定預算；第四，依有關法律應補列，所以還是需要法律，換句話說，這個法律如果過了，我們編出來的預算也可以叫特別預算，也可以叫追加預算，一定要有法律，所以那是假議題。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，管主委，以前我們都叫你管媽、管委員，你非常清楚立法院的運作。國防部副部長，您大概也非常清楚臺灣在整個國家安全上面所遭受到的問題。副部長，未來美國國防部次長Colby表示，希望臺灣的軍費要編列接近GDP的10%，我們做不做的到？"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，每一個國家在訴說GDP的時候，事實上每一個國家的財政裕度都不一樣，以我們國家為例，我們還要視國家財政裕度來看我們的國防預算，日前總統已經講了，國防預算要達到GDP的3%，我們非常感謝國人的支持，我們會朝這方面努力，國防預算是一個防衛決心的最佳表現……"],["邱委員議瑩：展現。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：委員也才到美國國防部，美國DoD特別強調，如果我們把國防預算提高到3%的話，足以證明我們自我防衛的決心，讓全世界能夠看到。"],["邱委員議瑩：沒錯嘛！"],["柏副部長鴻輝：讓全世界能夠看到，這是非常重要，而且……"],["邱委員議瑩：沒錯嘛！所以我們在原來的預算裡還想盡辦法要到3%，特別條例在國土安全韌性的部分只編列1,500億，我都還嫌太少了。我每次看到海委會秀出來的那些影片、照片，我們的海巡兄弟這麼辛苦，結果設備是不足的，熱顯像儀也不足，夜視系統也沒有，海下的系統也沒有，誰來幫他們的生命安全做保障？我們軍官兄弟們的戰機起飛、降落，在各個地方保衛臺灣疆域安全，1,500億的國土安全韌性預算是遠遠不足的。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：是的，遠遠不足。"],["邱委員議瑩：其實我覺得我們應該要把我們自己捍衛臺灣的決心展現出來，所以我是全力支持國防部和海巡單位在這個預算的編列上面，如果可以的話，我希望把預算做一些調整。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：謝謝委員支持。"],["邱委員議瑩：1,500億其實是應該要適度的增加。在特別條例上面，我們很期待對於國家安全的保障，其實應該多做一點事，國家安全保障不是只有去跟美國買軍購，有很多的國防產業供應鏈其實也是經濟的一環，這個都是環環相扣的，所以我期待這件事情應該站在一個更理性的角度來看待，站在一個對於國家防衛、國家整體經濟振興的角度來看待，我會全力的支持這個條例的通過，我也希望在國防軍備預算上面能夠來適度的增加。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：報告委員，可以給我30秒嗎？"],["邱委員議瑩：好。"],["柏副部長鴻輝：我覺得國防預算真的需要大家支持，國軍官兵每天面對灰色地帶衝突，憑良心講，我作為一個老兵50年，我看到我們的學弟學妹不辭勞苦在海上、在空中，請問國人給他的支持是什麼？就是國防預算的增加，讓他在海上應付灰色地帶衝突的時候無憂無慮，他能有信心去面對這樣的威脅，1,500億只不過是一個表徵，但重點是國人對我們的支持是非常重要的。所以我很感慨講這個事情，希望大家在這次的急迫性建案，灰色地帶的建案是可以馬上降低我們國軍官兵應對灰色地帶衝突的負荷，這對我們國家安全是一個很好的保障，希望大家給予我們支持，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員議瑩：次長，我剛剛聽你這樣講，我其實眼淚都快掉下來，全世界都已經在發展無人載具，結果我們在預算上面編列的無人機預算還被砍掉，我真的對臺灣的整體安全感到擔憂，也對於我們國軍兄弟保家衛國的行為深深感到敬佩，謝謝。"],["主席：現在請林德福委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝林坤澤委員協助代理宣告 作為代理主席那我們有請行政院謝慎龍參議請謝參議"},{"start":29.103,"end":51.409,"text":"蔡英你好依據今天國科會訴發部所提供的書面資料國科會已經在去年的10月22號將草案呈報行政院並由行政院辦理後續的審查作業行政院今天的書面報告則說會儘速將草案送進立法院審查本席算了一下從草案送進行政院到今天為止已經經過了205天"},{"start":54.15,"end":71.797,"text":"我想請問一下這個人工智慧基本法的草案剛剛我們這個次長也說了現在在行政院這裡那我們現在立法院的法定會期是5月31號請問行政院的草案會不會在法定會期之內就是5月31號以前送進立法院來審查會還是不會跟委員報告現在國科會在這個人工智慧基本法草案送進"},{"start":82.594,"end":106.215,"text":"院理後因為當然這個草案是大家都有共識是要一定是要設立的那因為在過程當中其實送來院去年對不起我打斷您過程我們都很清楚我想知道會還是不會5月31號以前會不會送進來審查這草案的版本目前院理還在文字調整中"},{"start":107.867,"end":129.557,"text":"政委那邊也都在協助所以這個奇怪囉剛剛訴發部說已經送他們的版本進去然後在行政院裡面那已經在行政院裡面了國科會主委還要去協助因為現在這個法到底是誰打到底是行政院的還是訴發部的還是國科會的因為這法案"},{"start":130.393,"end":153.292,"text":"基本法大家大概都有立法的共識所以因為在那個磋商過程中在審查過程中相關的意見也要觀察國際的趨勢這些來調整好 收到 謝謝啊我們大概知道你的大意啦就是現在還在神隱啦不過沒關係我們先了解一下這個過去您剛剛講過程嘛行政院在2月26號根據國科會的說法"},{"start":155.854,"end":176.2,"text":"是2月26號指示將人工智慧基本法的主管機關由國科會改為速發部但是很神奇啊我們翻閱了今天行政院的書院報告對這件事情隻字未提完全避而不談在以本席在4月29號總質詢的時候當面向院長請教這件事情卓院長也承諾在會後"},{"start":177.9,"end":204.637,"text":"馬上會提供2月26號的會議紀錄給本席但是直到今天本席依然沒有收到我們現在已經5月14號了完全沒有2月26號的會議紀錄啊到底我們一個AI基本法到轉這個所謂的部會來做主管怎麼沒有完全的一個紀錄的過程這當中有沒有什麼不可告人之處行政院為什麼沒有辦法提供會議紀錄或相關佐證資料我們一要再要啊 為什麼"},{"start":206.071,"end":232.114,"text":"跟委員報告 資料其實已經提供給委員 相關的文件2月26號的會議紀錄已經含送給委員了 這個我們等一下喔 等一下喔 我們沒有收到喔你們有含送嗎 你確定嗎是國科會那邊提供的國科會這邊有提供嗎有提供2月26號的會議紀錄我們已經有看到剪送的公文裡面有提到這個改交的過程嗎"},{"start":233.095,"end":243.779,"text":"有嗎 確認一下喔請你的幕僚把那個你確定有的話你現在你待會就印一個副本過來喔我們就沒收到啊5月22號我們就發文了5月12號發文到葛如軍委員辦公室"},{"start":252.591,"end":272.334,"text":"你是電子發文嗎 你是電子發文還是實體發文這個怎麼會有這種事情呢 如果有你現在就調出來副本好不好 你立刻提出來就是禮拜一發的嘛 我們沒有收到啊再確認一下好不好 確認一下好不好今天行政院的書面報告我們其實是還沒看到啦"},{"start":272.974,"end":295.062,"text":"無論如何,如果有你們其實今天也就可以帶過來嘛那你們的那個行政院今天的書面報告也都沒提到2月26號啊這完全是一個不知道從哪裡來的日期啊我們完全不知道這個改交的過程是什麼所以我想這個真的是要來了解一下同時呢我想我們今天的行政院的書面報告裡面也提到一個地方"},{"start":296.383,"end":310.237,"text":"說這個按照行政院的這個版本除了第七條有關我們希望來設立特別委員會的這個規定以外其他的條文是不是都跟本席的內容一樣照你們這個說法是不是這樣"},{"start":314.602,"end":333.513,"text":"這是你們今天提出來的報告 參事您今天要來是不是應該先閱讀一下我剛剛講說第七條 其實應該說之前已經回應過了沒有 就說只有這一條沒有條文相關啊 那其他就是有囉我們那條文你們都有囉 是不是這樣"},{"start":334.574,"end":362.223,"text":"重視的重點都在那個法案訂定過程都是有檢視也有納入大家的意見我想這是一定是要那個這是大家的公司就要兼顧這一些創新發展跟人權隱私的維護這一些當然一定是都會考量的好你雖然沒有回答本席的問題但沒有關係我想我們就期待你們的草案希望5月31號以前趕快提出來文字修正5月31號以前也夠了吧"},{"start":363.171,"end":390.819,"text":"可不可以送進來回去報告好我想我們再來問一下我們有說希望能夠有這個比較高層級的任務編組跨黨派的委員都有同樣的意見那我想問我們在總諮詢的時候院長跟我們說有智慧國家推動小組那我想問一下參事你知道你們的這個智慧國家推動小組的海外範圍有多廣嗎包山包海什麼都有啊"},{"start":391.898,"end":415.265,"text":"事實上我們就算你這個東西可以做好了但是我們可以看到智慧國家推動小組每年只開會一到兩次要來決定台灣的AI整體戰略而且108年 114年 110年根本也沒開會本席想要問第一個包山包海這件事情能處理AI嗎第二個"},{"start":416.626,"end":431.168,"text":"這個會有足夠的量能嗎第三個AI的業務既然這麼廣今天感謝這麼多的部會過來難道不值得專門設置一個委員會嗎我們剛剛也有委員提到啊所以這一點我希望詹士林帶回去"},{"start":432.149,"end":459.683,"text":"現在呢 我們看到你們的2024年的智慧國家推動小組的成果報告裡面24次講人工智慧 完全沒有講到戰略能不能把這一點帶回去 明確轉達給卓榮泰院長我們需要一個專門設置的委員會是 委員會 這樣我們會回去會報告是好 那麻煩了解一下那個文送過來的過程 到底送到了沒謝謝 那給副本那參議請回 接下來請國科會吳承文主委就備詢台"},{"start":467.009,"end":489.954,"text":"主委行政院剛剛現在是一個羅生門我們沒有收到資料我現在只好來請教你這個你們書面報告今天也有提到行政院今年2月26號指示這樣的一個改交那我想請教2月26號以前行政院院長有沒有跟您討論人工智慧基本法的主管機關要改交到速發部2月26號以前有沒有跟你說過我們是在當天會議的時候討論的"},{"start":493.706,"end":497.021,"text":"所以之前都沒有討論這是一個surprise是嗎"},{"start":498.51,"end":526.781,"text":"不會 因為我們在討論的過程當中其實是有提到未來要阻擇的部分當然要解釋法令這一點不好意思主委我打斷你我們這麼重要的一個AI的發展的阻擇機關竟然2月26號以前沒有討論過只有當天就直接告訴你那我們現在也拿不到會議記錄資料這到底是什麼樣的一個黑箱的過程"},{"start":527.481,"end":549.257,"text":"老實說啦 我想我們看一下 根據你們的資料其實我可以理解 國會真的做了非常多的事情這一點我要給你抱抱啊你們做了非常多的諮詢會議但是我們可以看到 速發部則是給我們回覆到現在為止完全沒有依據人工基本法 召開過任何一次的諮詢會議"},{"start":552.819,"end":561.687,"text":"所以我想 主委 我們真的是替你覺得打抱不平啦你上場投出了一個好球 投得也不錯結果中繼沒幾局就要換下場我覺得同仁都為你感到不捨啦這個是不是我們就一起來努力釐清這過程當中發生什麼事情"},{"start":570.252,"end":586.008,"text":"沒有發生什麼事情沒有發生什麼事情就2月26號一天就告訴你說不是你的了 下場我們在制定法案的過程當中其實有討論到要不要列入主政的部會但是因為"},{"start":587.069,"end":609.133,"text":"他牽涉到非常多的這個應用面是跟各部會都有關那速發部來主政的部分是以資料治理為主但是將來在施行的時候剛剛其實委員有提到要設立委員會這件事情我們其實有一個三政委的平台這個我們聽過了謝謝我打斷您謝謝這個我們理解那後面同仁你們找到這個報告了嗎2月16號的會議紀錄相關的這個資料"},{"start":614.363,"end":615.043,"text":"我們今年度有申請科專的請費"},{"start":638.318,"end":658.386,"text":"詳細的數字我可能要請我們問不到啊然後聽說現在好像還沒審查通過啊我是不是幫您跟國科會主委要求加速一下剛剛大家都說你們都很擔心你們兩邊會不會有歧義啊多少申請多少經費啊我們也要希望這個朝野有共識的"},{"start":659.548,"end":664.752,"text":"國科會申請一個4000萬的經費聽說現在還沒下來啊還沒通過啊我們跟國科會合作也要很良好這樣子沒關係我想這可能溝通上面有一些問題好不好我們是不是能夠大家這個AI主權嘛這資料很重要剛剛這個李昆哲委員也非常重視"},{"start":679.682,"end":703.235,"text":"那我想再請教次長那你現在有這個語料庫我們都非常關心這個語料庫現在都是跟政府部會內部來購買啊那這個什麼時候要來跟民間購買資料否則你現在是政府的左手跟政府的右手來買資料定價權也在你手上給錢也是你那民間呢民間也有很多寶貴的資料啊什麼時候會來向民間購買資料什麼時候會開放給民間的公司來做AI的訓練"},{"start":710.439,"end":738.098,"text":"兩個部分第一個跟委員報告我們政府的資料那我們不會是採取購買的方式因為這些不管是有著作權或沒有著作權他基本上他的著作權也是屬於這個政府部門在沒有正義的部分我們是採取無償的部分來提供的那民間的部分我們首先會採取自願的方式那事實上已經有過去已經有這個我們接下來過程中已經有民間的包括電子的這個出版品的這個廠商他願意投入這個計畫因為他也希望他的出版品"},{"start":739.259,"end":755.024,"text":"能夠成為語料庫的一部分所以可以付費跟他購買嗎我們目前沒有採取付費的機制我想這個可能要請速發部研議一下喔因為這個語料庫你不能左手跟政府自己右手買啊民間那麼寶貴的資料都不是資料嗎我們民間沒有台灣價值嗎應該有吧有有有 對不對將來我們當然會希望有獎勵的機制能夠鼓勵民間來投入這個資料庫這樣好"},{"start":763.347,"end":790.745,"text":"謝謝次長我們一起來努力不好意思我最後借30秒那有請 次長請回有請教育部的吳司長謝謝 司長本席的人工智慧基本法提案版本第九條非常重視人工智慧跟教育的結合雖然我們還沒有三讀通過但是謝謝教育部一直努力在推動科技教育很遺憾本席最近接獲第一線教師的陳情已經推行四年的5G新科技學習示範學校計畫"},{"start":791.445,"end":815.607,"text":"因為前瞻計畫的期程只到今年的8月而面臨辦公室解散人員要裁撤的困境教育部雖然有向國科會申請科技計畫我們也再次感謝國科會那依據審理的期程呢最快可能要到1月才能夠撥款我們都知道那個燈喔開關燈的過程是最耗電的能不能可以把它持續下去科技教育的研發需要投入很大量的心血啦"},{"start":816.047,"end":828.115,"text":"是不是可以不要因為計畫銜接的中斷請教師長教育部能不能進行內部預算的盤點考慮以公務預算暫時支應計畫的經費讓有意持續辦理的學校可以度過兩個計畫銜接的這個空窗期不要這樣子讓這個人員無所適從有沒有這個機會謝謝召委我們回去會後會盤點現有的經費還有資源然後我們再進行後續的一個相關研議好 可以做到啦好 謝謝那我們就謝謝師長"},{"start":846.268,"end":850.101,"text":"好 來 事務長請坐吉祥委員 我跟你說"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":235,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（10時10分）謝謝李昆澤委員作為代理主席協助宣告。有請行政院謝勝隆參議。"],["主席：請謝參議。"],["葛委員如鈞：參議，你好。依據今天國科會、數發部所提供的書面資料，國科會已經在去年10月22號將草案陳報行政院，並由行政院辦理後續審查作業。行政院今天的書面報告則說，會儘速將草案送進立法院審查。本席算了一下，從草案送進行政院到今天為止，已經過了205天，我想請問一下人工智慧基本法草案，剛剛次長也說了現在在行政院，而立法院的法定會期到5月31號，請問行政院的草案會不會在法定會期之內，也就是5月31號以前送進立法院來審查？會還是不會？"],["謝參議勝隆：在國科會將人工智慧基本法草案送進院以後，雖然大家都有共識這個草案一定要訂立，但是在過程當中，其實去年送來院……"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起！我打斷您。我們都很清楚過程，我想知道會還是不會，5月31號以前會不會送進來審查？"],["謝參議勝隆：這個草案的版本目前院裡還在文字調整中，政委也都在協處，還在作業中。"],["葛委員如鈞：奇怪！剛剛數發部說已經送了他們的版本進去，然後在行政院裡面，既然已經在行政院裡面了，國科會主委還要去協助，現在這個法到底是誰的？到底是行政院的、數發部的，還是國科會的？"],["謝參議勝隆：雖然大家對基本法都有立法共識，但在磋商、審查過程中的相關意見，也要觀察國際趨勢來調整。"],["葛委員如鈞：收到，謝謝。我們大概知道你的大意了，就是現在還在神隱，不過沒關係，我們先了解一下過去、您剛剛講的過程。根據國科會的說法，行政院在2月26號指示，將人工智慧基本法的主管機關由國科會改為數發部，但是很神奇，我們翻閱了今天行政院的書面報告，對這件事情隻字未提、完全避而不談。本席在4月29號總質詢的時候，當面向院長請教這件事情，卓院長也承諾在會後會馬上提供2月26號的會議紀錄給本席，但是直到今天本席依然沒有收到。現在已經5月14號了，完全沒有2月26號的會議紀錄，AI基本法換部會來主管，怎麼會完全沒有記錄過程？這當中有沒有什麼不可告人之處？行政院為什麼沒有辦法提供會議紀錄或相關佐證資料？我們一要再要，為什麼？"],["謝參議勝隆：資料已經提供給委員。2月26號的會議紀錄已經函送給委員了，我們在國科會提供……"],["葛委員如鈞：等一下，我們沒有收到！"],["謝參議勝隆：我們有看到……"],["葛委員如鈞：你們有函送嗎？你確定嗎？"],["謝參議勝隆：有，是國科會提供的。"],["葛委員如鈞：國科會有提供嗎？有提供2月26號的會議紀錄、佐證資料？"],["謝參議勝隆：我們已經有看到檢送的公文了。"],["葛委員如鈞：裡面有提到改交的過程嗎？有嗎？確認一下！"],["主席（謝委員龍介代）：請你的幕僚把確定提供的公文拿出來。"],["葛委員如鈞：有的話，你待會兒就印一個副本過來，我們就沒收到啊！"],["蔡處長妙慈：我們已經發文了，我非常確定，5月12號我們就發文了。"],["葛委員如鈞：5月12號發文到葛如鈞委員辦公室？"],["王科長凱平：是，沒錯。"],["主席：你是電子發文嗎？"],["葛委員如鈞：你是電子發文，還是實體發文？怎麼會有這種事情呢？"],["主席：5月12號就是……"],["葛委員如鈞：如果有，你現在就調出副本，好不好？"],["蔡處長妙慈：好，沒問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：你立刻提出來！"],["主席：就是禮拜一發的嘛？"],["王科長凱平：對。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們沒有收到！"],["主席：你再確認一下，好不好？"],["葛委員如鈞：確認一下，好不好？無論如何，從今天行政院的書面報告，我們其實還沒看到，如果有，你們今天就可以帶過來。行政院今天的書面報告都沒提到2月26號，這完全是一個不知道從哪裡來的日期，我們完全不知道改交的過程是什麼，所以我想這個真的是要來了解一下。同時，今天行政院的書面報告裡面也提到一個地方，按照行政院的版本，除了第七條有關我們希望設立特別委員會的規定以外，其他條文是不是都跟本席的內容一樣？照你們這個說法，是不是這樣？這是你們今天提出來的報告，您今天要來是不是應該先閱讀一下？"],["謝參議勝隆：委員說第七條，應該說之前已經回應過了。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有！就是只有這一條沒有相關條文，其他就是有囉？我們的條文你們都有，是不是這樣？"],["謝參議勝隆：大家重視的重點都在法案訂定過程有檢視，也有納入大家的意見，這是大家的共識，就是要兼顧創新發展跟人權隱私的委員會，這一些當然一定都會考量。"],["葛委員如鈞：你雖然沒有回答本席的問題，但沒有關係，我們就期待你們的草案，希望5月31號以前趕快提出來，文字修正5月31號以前也夠了吧？可不可以送進來？"],["謝參議勝隆：我回去會報告。"],["葛委員如鈞：回去報告？好，我再來問一下，我們希望能夠有比較高層級的任務編組，跨黨派的委員都有同樣的意見。總質詢的時候院長跟我們說，有智慧國家推動小組，我想問一下參議，你知道這個智慧國家推動小組涵蓋的範圍有多廣嗎？包山包海，什麼都有！事實上，就算這個東西可以做好了，但是智慧國家推動小組每年只開會一到兩次要來決定臺灣的AI整體戰略，而且108年、114年、110年根本也沒開會。本席想要問，第一個、包山包海這件事情能處理AI嗎？第二個、這個會有足夠的量能嗎？第三個、AI的業務既然這麼廣，今天感謝這麼多的部會過來，難道不值得設置一個專門的委員會嗎？剛剛也有委員提到，所以這一點我希望參議帶回去。現在我們看到你們2024年的智慧國家推動小組成果報告，裡面講了24次人工智慧，卻完全沒有講到戰略，能不能把這一點帶回去，明確轉達給卓榮泰院長，我們需要設置一個專門的委員會？"],["謝參議勝隆：針對委員的意見，我們回去會報告。"],["葛委員如鈞：麻煩了解一下那個文送過來的過程，到底送到了沒？謝謝，請給副本。參議，請回。","接下來請國科會吳誠文主委就備詢臺。"],["吳主任委員誠文：葛召委好。"],["葛委員如鈞：主委，剛剛是一個羅生門，我們沒有收到資料，我現在只好來請教你，你們的書面報告今天也有提到，行政院今年2月26號指示這樣的改交。我想請教2月26號以前，行政院院長有沒有跟您討論人工智慧基本法的主管機關要改交到數發部？2月26號以前，有沒有跟你說過？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們是在當天會議的時候討論的。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以之前都沒有討論，這是一個surprise，是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不會，因為我們在討論的過程當中，其實有提到未來要主責的部會，將來要解釋法令……"],["葛委員如鈞：主委，不好意思，我打斷你。這麼重要的AI發展主責機關，竟然2月26號以前沒有討論過，只有當天就直接告訴你，而我們現在也拿不到會議紀錄資料，這到底是什麼樣的黑箱過程？老實說，根據你們的資料，我可以理解國科會真的做了非常多的事情，這一點我要給你拍拍手，你們做了非常多的諮詢會議，但是數發部則回復我們，到現在為止，完全沒有依據人工智慧基本法召開過任何一次諮詢會議。主委，我們真的替你打抱不平，你上場投出了一個好球，投得也不錯，結果中繼沒幾局就被換下場，同仁都為你感到不捨，我們是不是就一起來努力釐清這個過程當中發生什麼事情？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有發生什麼事情。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有發生什麼事情，就是2月26號一天就告訴你說不是你的了、下場。"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是、不是。我們在制定法案的過程當中，其實有討論到要不要列入主政部會，但是因為它牽涉到非常多的應用面是跟各部會都有關，數發部主政的部分是以資料治理為主，但是將來在施行的時候，剛剛其實委員有提到要設立委員會這件事情，我們其實有一個3政委的平臺……"],["葛委員如鈞：這個我們聽過了，我打斷您，謝謝，這個我們理解。","後面的同仁，你們找到這個報告了嗎？2月26號的會議紀錄相關資料？"],["蔡處長妙慈：有，我們等一下會印過去。"],["葛委員如鈞：印出來，謝謝。主委請回，抱歉，時間有限，接下來有請數發部葉寧次長。","葉寧次長，我想跟您請教剛剛不同黨派的委員都關注的AI語料庫，請教今年度要編列多少預算來執行本計畫？"],["葉次長寧：我們今年度有申請了科專的經費。"],["葛委員如鈞：多少錢？"],["葉次長寧：詳細的數字我可能要請……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們問不到，然後聽說現在好像還沒審查通過，我是不是幫您跟國科會主委要求加速一下？"],["葉次長寧：主委已經答應會全力支持，所以沒有問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：剛剛大家都很擔心你們兩邊會不會有歧異啊！申請多少經費？"],["葉次長寧：不會、不會。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們也希望朝野有共識的跨黨派……"],["葉次長寧：我們有跟國科會申請一個4,000萬的經費。"],["葛委員如鈞：4,000萬的經費聽說現在還沒下來，還沒通過啊！主委眼睛張得很大！"],["葉次長寧：我們跟國科會合作良好。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒關係，我想這可能是溝通上面有一些問題，好不好？AI主權嘛！資料很重要，剛剛李昆澤委員也非常重視。","我想再請教次長，現在有語料庫，我們都非常關心，這個語料庫現在都是跟政府部會內部購買，什麼時候要來跟民間購買資料？否則你現在是政府的左手，跟政府的右手來買資料，定價權也在你手上，給錢也是你，那民間呢？民間也有很多寶貴的資料啊！什麼時候會向民間購買資料？什麼時候會開放給民間公司做AI的訓練？"],["葉次長寧：兩個部分，第一個，跟委員報告，政府的資料我們不會是採取購買的方式，因為這些不管是有著作權或沒有著作權，基本上，著作權也是屬於政府部門，在沒有爭議的部分，我們是採取無償提供。民間的部分，我們首先會採取自願的方式，事實上，過去我們接洽的過程中，已經有民間的包括電子出版品廠商願意投入這個計畫，因為他也希望他的出版品能夠成為語料庫的一部分。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以可以付費跟他購買嗎？"],["葉次長寧：我們目前沒有採取付費的機制。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想這個可能要請數發部研議一下，因為這個語料庫你不能左手跟政府自己右手買啊！民間那麼寶貴的資料都不是資料嗎？"],["葉次長寧：政府部門不是購買。"],["葛委員如鈞：民間沒有臺灣價值嗎？應該有吧！對不對？"],["葉次長寧：有、有，將來我們當然會希望有獎勵的機制能夠鼓勵民間來投入這個資料庫。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝次長，我們一起來努力。"],["葉次長寧：謝謝委員。"],["葛委員如鈞：不好意思，我最後借30秒，次長請回。有請教育部的吳司長，謝謝。","司長，本席的人工智慧基本法提案版本第九條非常重視人工智慧跟教育的結合，雖然我們還沒有三讀通過，但是謝謝教育部一直努力在推動科技教育。很遺憾！本席最近接獲第一線教師的陳情，已經推行4年的5G新科技學習示範學校計畫，因為前瞻計畫期程只到今年8月而面臨辦公室解散、人員要裁撤的困境，教育部雖然有向國科會申請科技計畫，我們也再次感謝國科會，依據審理期程，最快可能要到1月才能夠撥款，不過我們都知道開關燈的過程是最耗電的，能不能把它持續下去？科技教育的研發需要投入很大量的心血，是不是可以不要因為計畫銜接而中斷？請教司長，教育部能不能進行內部預算的盤點，考慮以公務預算暫時支應計畫經費，讓有意持續辦理的學校可以度過兩個計畫銜接的空窗期，不要這樣讓人員無所適從，有沒有這個機會？"],["吳司長穎沺：謝謝召委，我們會後回去會盤點現有的經費還有資源，然後我們再進行後續相關的研議。"],["葛委員如鈞：可以做到？好，謝謝，我們就謝謝司長。"],["主席：司長請坐。葛召委，我跟你說，吳主委是王牌投手，你不要忘記了，換下來還另有重用。","俊憲，你們的委員說我們兩個比較好，我現在宣告你的發言順序。","下一位請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,23-1","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳宗憲","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","柯志恩","李昆澤","林俊憲","陳素月","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","葉元之","蔡其昌","劉書彬","萬美玲","張雅琳","郭昱晴","何欣純","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","游顥","徐富癸","吳沛憶","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","范雲","林沛祥","邱若華","廖先翔","許宇甄","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；二、審查委員邱若華等 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你人在現場嘛那為什麼在聘這個審查委員的時候"},{"start":125.851,"end":153.027,"text":"他的名字還可以浮出來你們現在解釋都推給基層因為參謀新來的不知道院長不查所以院長記兩個過院長該被處分我沒有意見校長沒事啊校長怎麼幹的啊有事都下面人趕這麼大的事情當時的部長震怒回去該不要列管沒有列管然後這人輕輕放下靠山很大"},{"start":155.523,"end":180.175,"text":"然後這次的處分還是只到院的層級學校的層級管理的層級通通沒有責任可以這樣子嗎部長我不知道你們懲處的邏輯是什麼就是說光管理一個學校這個學校的老師可以申請就專利我們花的錢最後專利居然歸那個老師的還讓他去開公司公司的股東坦白講他的股東現在是不是還在學校裡面"},{"start":182.691,"end":189.377,"text":"如果背後沒給他靠可以敢這樣子啊在學校開股東會找中國人來當股東所以我第一個要請教部長這個事件的層屬層級只到院妥適嗎它不是單一事件它是從去年連續發生到現在"},{"start":203.618,"end":228.435,"text":"我的理解或者等一下可以教授再補充一下我的理解好像這是理工學院的層級裡面通報出來的如果只有這一次我覺得到院夠重了可是問題是它有前因後果去年在這個委員會國防大學練習人員就知道葛明的這個事件了隔了六個月它又火起來了為什麼學校都不用管的"},{"start":235.19,"end":257.784,"text":"院的院長不用來這邊被尋的啊委員好 謝委員知道那個 廣東大學這邊報告啊有關於去年這個案子發生之後我們校長召開了很多次的管制會議然後以 包括那個停聘會議還有相關的那個 禁止那個高老師接觸各項研究案還有當任主持人的案子 他都有管制然後基於這個"},{"start":259.365,"end":287.039,"text":"責任檢討我們有兩點第一點就是在這個作業流程還有當初的國王科技官網的一個授權上面這確實是理工學院它單獨作業完成它是沒有職位我們那個校部第二點教育長這些事我們溝通過你們開了好多會議開了好多管制會議它不能接觸機敏的資料就當時可以被聘為審查委員那會議有用嗎"},{"start":288.449,"end":303.303,"text":"這跟委員報告因為這個案子後來的處置是很迅速的就在這個五月一號生效之前我們還要把它註銷那是因為有中科院的人說這個不妥當媒體報導出來了否則五月一號笑話就變顧立雄的笑話了"},{"start":304.346,"end":322.934,"text":"是 那就是因為你們不是內空發現的耶你們是媒體揭露你們才處理的耶是 那我們發現這個問題之後我們也是趕快做一個檢討整個作業流程都有做檢討我要回到部長這邊就是說這個事情有一個我們那天有跟軍備局也討論過了根據工程會我們所有的標案"},{"start":323.894,"end":340.861,"text":"的審查委員其實他的法律跟道德瑕疵是列入考量的後來呢 部長你知道嗎我們盤點了一下這個先進科技研究計畫它其實有點像標案有點像最有力標這些大學提了proposal進來核准的會有五千萬幾千萬欸"},{"start":343.732,"end":363.667,"text":"他也是一種標案結果獨獨我們軍方哪怕我們引改要蓋的房子什麼的我們在招標的時候審查委員的資格裡面是有根據公共工程委員會有一些他有法律疑義有道德瑕疵的會迴避掉喔全部只有先進科技研究計畫的審查委員沒有"},{"start":367.07,"end":387.099,"text":"軍備局我這樣講沒錯啦這個我們討論過了嘛就是說所有的標案喔我們在招標的時候去勾這些審查委員根據工程委員會對其他政府標案根據我們國防部對其他相關標案這個審查委員有利益迴避問題最近有被司法調查有相關的瑕疵會把他移開"},{"start":389.042,"end":405.529,"text":"怎麼會獨獨國防先進科技研究計畫的這個審議組的委員沒有嘛獨獨他沒有嘛我這樣講沒有錯嘛所以我們看到一個案子我們當然會難過會憤怒但我們也希望一起研討找出亡羊補牢的方式"},{"start":406.169,"end":428.865,"text":"未來在這一個先進科技研究計畫的審查委員上是不是應該比照其他的標案雖然有人認為是學校提proposal但這個是有的幾百萬有的幾千萬的proposal講標案的金額也不是小案是不是應該把這樣子的考量跟其他的標案對審查委員有疑義的資格應該一致性的考慮我不知道部長看法怎麼樣"},{"start":429.565,"end":455.899,"text":"是跟委員說明我們確實對這件事情受到了一個重大的教訓所以我們會根據這個您講的這個工程工工程委員會他們這一個有關採購評選委員會的專家學者的這種參考名單的資料庫的這個專業性跟公正性有一個要點的一個規範我們會根據這個要點來即日起把那個規範納入進來"},{"start":458.34,"end":475.509,"text":"坦白講我一面覺得劉志斌校長好像無辜啊因為沒有排除這個坦白講這鐵人腦袋在幹下面框了300個審查委員只有這種審查委員萬一裡面爆出一兩個有牽涉到共諜案的勾出一個過去牽涉到貪賭的"},{"start":477.251,"end":497.307,"text":"結果審查的時候根本沒有這樣排除的條件那這個長官多難當所以一面我可以體會這個校長好像是有點無辜但另外一面這件事情從去年爆發到現在整個處理的過程看起來是如火如荼有節有奏到最後是根本沒效他還是浮出來"},{"start":498.547,"end":521.897,"text":"也就是本席剛才發現審查委員這資格事情應該是在學校裡面開各項的管考會議的時候你們應該發現說這個審查委員我們沒有把這個有道德瑕疵法律瑕疵法律異議利益迴避的人排除應該當時納入納入的話就不會發生5月1號差一點人令公佈他成為審查委員"},{"start":522.87,"end":545.365,"text":"所以跟委員報告我只能說第一點就是說就我的了解校長在有受到這個案子當之前有停聘然後後來這個案子檢方啟動偵查之後他馬上停止他的所有相關的這些研究的計畫案那另外也逐步的要開各級的這個評議這個會那最後在5月6號就5月6號就已經開校教評會將他解聘這樣子那部長"},{"start":554.541,"end":561.495,"text":"檢調啟動調查是在事情爆發將近四個半月五個月後整個處理是慢的第二個"},{"start":562.657,"end":586.544,"text":"第二個你停聘一堆不能接觸這些研究案結果跑出一個漏洞他竟然當了研究案的審查委員所以這就有一個洞嘛那這個洞為什麼沒有被發現誰有責任我一直認為誰有責任誰就該處分不是長官的連坐而是管理的人有管理的責任執行的人有執行的責任不是萬事小兵扛啊"},{"start":587.604,"end":613.97,"text":"管理的責任就應該管理階層要扛起來所以這個懲處人事權是您的權利我不干涉但我告訴你這件事情如果只懲處到這個層級等於枉費過去六個月到底做了什麼事情怎麼這個洞還會發生這個洞是可以堵住的然後呢我最後要提醒他成立那家公司股東部長你可以跟檢調調一個名冊股東有哪些人那些人是不是還在學校裡面"},{"start":614.949,"end":641.588,"text":"有沒有查一下就是說我不確定有我也不確定沒有但是你們應該去了解一下說他敢在學校開股東會股東有沒有我們學校的人有沒有甘股有沒有背後的人這個是先進科技雖然是屬於發展期還未達機敏程度但也看得出來我們國軍要投入資本研究的方向他的公司敢在國防大學裡面開"},{"start":643.803,"end":662.718,"text":"你如果說沒人給他靠我實在是不太敢相信外面隨便住個餐廳都能開了黨大萬為到這個程度所以股東的成分了解一下好不好可不可以請國防部跟國防大學或者相關單位了解了解完給我們委員會一個報告我想我們下去以後請你了解吧"},{"start":664.482,"end":689.067,"text":"委員好,我是理工學院院長,跟你報告,這個武東一開始是12個人成立的12個裡面有多少是國防大學的人?這裡面有4個是國防大學的人有一個是革命的老師,那他是以他兒子的名義來做那另外三個老師,其中兩個已經離開學校了分別是退休還有已經過世了,那還剩下一個老師"},{"start":689.887,"end":715.569,"text":"那他在這個案發是112年12月在那個之前他在111年的12月的時候把他的股份全部都轉讓了轉讓給其他股東其他股東所以那個公司有出具一個證明就是說該員已經不是本公司的股東坦白講你不覺得這個公司是一群我們國防大學的老師違法"},{"start":718.347,"end":743.002,"text":"去成立的一公司放在學校裡面你不覺得很誇張嗎然後這些在之前的那個處分都已經按照違反禁止進來都記過一次然後即便是已經退休的還是記過一次我還是建議就把這個流程相關人間接的三等親查一下然後能夠亡羊補牢卻沒有補到的管理的責任該負還是要負這個給部長做參考好不好 謝謝部長是 好 謝謝 先問指教"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":290,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時8分）謝謝主席。麻煩部長。"],["主席：有請顧部長，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。我還是想跟你提一下葛明德事件，我知道你們已經簽懲處的是國防大學理工學院的院長跟相關的參謀，但這個事情這樣處理，是不是到適當的層級？我非常有疑義。這個源頭是來自國防部跟國防大學簽了一個合作案，讓這個老師去研究，研究出來的專利最後竟然是歸葛明德所有。他成立一家公司，公司股東大會在國防大學校內開，公司找的股東有中國方面我們不允許的資本在裡面。當時邱國正當部長，他站在我現在對立那邊說：這個人該槍斃！後來拖了半年遲遲不處理，一直到媒體揭露才把他從位置上停聘，停聘半年而已，後來當然是解聘了，然後最近的風波是他在3、4月份才被檢調搜索，就差一點點，5月1日人令生效，他就會從原來國防先進科技研究計畫的申請人，也就是剛才講的那個該被槍斃的事件，竟然又被聘為那個計畫審議組的審查委員，從有瑕疵的球員轉個身分變成有瑕疵的裁判，這件事情我當然有跟貴部相關的業管溝通過。","第一個問題是當時邱國正被質詢的時候，國防大學的教育長在這裡，教育長，你人在現場嘛！"],["李教育長成中：在。"],["王委員定宇：為什麼在聘這個審查委員的時候，他的名字還可以浮出來？你們現在的解釋都推給基層，說因為參謀新來的不知道，院長不查，所以院長記兩個過。院長該被處分，我沒有意見，但校長沒事啊！校長怎麼幹的？有事都下面的人扛，這麼大的事情，當時的部長震怒，回去該不該列管？沒有列管！然後這個人輕輕放下，靠山很大啊！然後這次的處分還是只到院的層級，學校的層級、管理的層級通通沒有責任，可以這樣子嗎？","部長，我不知道你們懲處的邏輯是什麼？就是管理一個學校，這個學校的老師可以申請專利，我們花了錢，但最後專利竟然歸那個老師的，還讓他去開公司，至於公司的股東，坦白講，他的股東現在是不是還在學校裡面？如果背後沒給他靠，他敢這樣子啊！在學校開股東會，找中資、中國人來當股東。所以我第一個要請教部長，這個事件的懲處層級只到院妥適嗎？它不是單一事件，它是從去年連續發生到現在耶！"],["顧部長立雄：或者等一下教育長可以再補充一下。我的理解這好像是理工學院的層級裡面通報出來的……"],["王委員定宇：如果只有這一次，我覺得到院夠重了，可是問題是它有前因後果。去年在這個委員會，國防大學的列席人員就知道葛明德這個事件了，隔了6個月，他又活起來了，為什麼？學校都不用管的？院的院長不用來這邊備詢的啊！"],["李教育長成中：委員好！謝謝委員指導。國防大學報告，去年這個案子發生之後，我們校長召開了很多次的管制會議，包括那個停聘會議，還有相關的禁止葛老師接觸各項研究案，還有擔任主持人的案子，都有管制，然後基於這個責任檢討，我們有兩點。","第一點就是在這個作業流程，還有當初國防科技公文的授權上面，這確實是理工學院單獨作業完成，他沒有知會我們校部。第二點……"],["王委員定宇：教育長，這些事我們溝通過，你們開了好多會議，開了好多管制會議，讓他不能接觸機敏的資料，結果可以被聘為審查委員，那會議有用嗎？"],["李教育長成中：跟委員報告，這個案子後來的處置是很迅速的，就在5月1日要生效之前，我們趕快註銷……"],["王委員定宇：那是因為有中科院的人說這個不妥當，媒體報導出來了，否則5月1日的笑話就變顧立雄的笑話了！"],["李教育長成中：是，就是因為……"],["王委員定宇：對不對？你們不是內控發現的，你們是媒體揭露才處理的耶！"],["李教育長成中：是，我們發現這個問題之後，也是趕快去檢討，整個作業流程都有檢討……"],["王委員定宇：我還是回到部長這邊，這個事情我們那天跟軍備局也討論過了，根據工程會的規定，其實所有標案審查委員的法律及道德瑕疵是列入考量的。部長，你知道嗎？後來我們盤點了一下，這個先進科技研究計畫其實有點像標案，有點像最有利標，這些大學提了proposal進來，核准的會有5,000萬，幾千萬耶！它也是一種標案，我們軍方哪怕營改要蓋房子或什麼的，在招標的時候，審查委員的資格都有根據公共工程委員會的規定，有法律疑義的、有道德瑕疵的，會迴避掉，結果全部獨獨只有先進科技研究計畫的審查委員沒有。軍備局，我這樣講沒錯吧！"],["林局長文祥：對，沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：這個我們討論過了嘛！"],["林局長文祥：是，討論過了。"],["王委員定宇：所有標案在招標去勾選審查委員的時候，根據公共工程委員會對其他政府標案，根據國防部對其他相關標案，當審查委員有利益迴避的問題、最近有被司法調查或有相關瑕疵，我們會把他移開，怎麼會獨獨這個國防先進科技研究計畫審議組的委員沒有，獨獨他沒有？我這樣講沒有錯嘛！所以我們看到這一個案子，當然會難過、會憤怒，但我們也希望一起研討，找出亡羊補牢的方式，未來在這個先進科技研究計畫的審查委員上，是不是應該比照其他標案？雖然有人認為這是學校提proposal，但這個有的是幾百萬、有的是幾千萬的proposal，講標案，它的金額也不小，是不是這樣子的標案與其他標案，對審查委員的資格有疑義的部分，應該一致性考慮？我不知道部長的看法怎麼樣？"],["顧部長立雄：是，跟委員說明，我們確實在這件事情受到了一個重大的教訓，所以我們會根據您講的公共工程委員會有關採購評選委員會專家學者參考名單資料庫的專業性及公正性，有一個要點的規範，我們會根據這個要點加以……"],["王委員定宇：就即日起把那個規範納進來……"],["顧部長立雄：對，納進來。"],["王委員定宇：坦白講，我一面覺得劉志斌校長好像是無辜，因為沒有排除這個，坦白講，這是提著腦袋在幹耶！下面匡了300個審查委員，萬一裡面爆出一、二個有牽涉到共諜案的，勾選出一個過去牽涉到貪瀆的，結果審查的時候根本沒有這樣排除的條件，這個長官多難當！所以一面我可以體會校長好像是有點無辜，但另外一面，這件事情從去年爆發到現在，整個處理過程看起來是如火如荼，有節有奏，到最後卻是根本沒效，他還是浮出來。也就是本席剛才發現的，審查委員資格問題應該是學校裡面在開各項管考會議的時候，你們要發現這些審查委員，你們卻沒有把有道德瑕疵、法律瑕疵、法律疑義、應利益迴避的人排除。你們應該當時納入，納入的話，就不會發生5月1日差一點人令公布，讓他成為審查委員。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我只能說第一點，就我的了解，校長收到這個案子之後，當然之前有停聘，後來檢方啟動偵查，他馬上停止他所有相關的研究計畫案，也逐步開各級的評議會，最後在5月6日就已經開教評會將他解聘。"],["王委員定宇：不是，部長，檢調啟動調查是在事情爆發將近4個半月、5個月後，整個處理是慢的。第二個，你停聘他、要求他不能接觸這些研究案等等一堆，結果跑出一個漏洞，他竟然當了研究案的審查委員……"],["顧部長立雄：對，這一點，我們……"],["王委員定宇：所以這就有個洞，這個洞為什麼沒有被發現，誰有責任？我一直認為誰有責任誰就該處分，不是長官連坐，而是管理的人有管理的責任，執行的人有執行的責任，不是萬事小兵扛啊！"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：管理的責任就應該要由管理階層扛起來……"],["顧部長立雄：是，我……"],["王委員定宇：這個人事懲處權是您的權力，我不干涉，但我告訴你，這件事情如果只懲處到這個層級，等於枉費過去6個月，到底做了什麼事情，怎麼這個洞還會發生？這個洞是可以堵住的。","我最後還要提醒，關於他成立那家公司的股東，部長，你可以跟檢調調名冊，看股東有哪些人，那些人是不是還在學校裡面，有沒有？查一下，我不確定有，我也不確定沒有，但是你們應該去了解一下，他敢在學校開股東會，股東有沒有學校的人？有沒有乾股？有沒有背後的人？這個是先進科技，雖然是屬於發展期，還未達機敏程度，但也看得出來我們國軍要投入資本研究的方向。他的公司敢在國防大學裡面開股東會，你如果說沒人給他靠，我實在是不太敢相信！外面隨便租個餐廳都能開了，他膽大妄為到這個程度！所以股東的成分了解一下，好不好？可不可以請國防部及國防大學或者相關單位了解，了解完後，給我們委員會一個報告？"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們下去以後進行了解……"],["崔院長怡楓：委員好，我是理工學院院長……"],["王委員定宇：是，請說。"],["崔院長怡楓：跟您報告，這個公司一開始是十二個股東成立的，然後這十二個……"],["王委員定宇：十二個裡面有多少是國防大學的人？"],["崔院長怡楓：這裡面有四個是國防大學的人，有一個是葛明德老師，他是以他兒子的名義來做。至於另外三個老師，其中兩個已經離開學校，分別是退休以及過世了。目前還剩下一個老師。這個案發是在112年12月，在那之前，他在111年12月的時候就把他的股份全部都轉讓了。"],["王委員定宇：轉讓給誰？"],["崔院長怡楓：其他股東。公司有出具一個證明，證明該員已經不是本公司的股東，那是在案發之前。"],["王委員定宇：坦白講，這家公司是一群國防大學的老師違法成立的公司，放在學校裡面你不覺得很誇張嗎？"],["崔院長怡楓：是不應該，其實之前的處分都已經按照違反兼職條例記過一次，即便已經退休的也還是記過一次。"],["王委員定宇：我還是建議把流程、相關人員、間接的三等親查一下，然後亡羊補牢卻沒有補到的管理責任該負還是要負。這個給部長參考好不好？謝謝部長。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇委員。","接下來請林憶君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":40,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-13","speakers":["沈伯洋","陳俊宇","徐巧芯","羅美玲","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王定宇","林憶君","王鴻薇","黃國昌","陳永康","馬文君","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，國防部主管預算凍結案等54案","agenda_id":"1144901_00001"}}},{"id":"161321","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161321","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b31bbe33cf98f8d7cfe24093ee94bb6855433fb1cebf983d855ea099cd124814b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:06:49 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10:16:58","影片長度":"00:10:09","會議時間":"2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、勞動部及教育部就「我國推動綠色轉型政策，相關人才培育發展與產業政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟部、農業部及教育部就「全氟及多氟烷基物質(PFAS)管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化物相關管理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【5月14日及15日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-14","start_time":"2025-05-14T10:06:49+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-14T10:16:58+08:00","duration":609,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-11"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.76784375,"end":11.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11.89409375,"end":12.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.960968750000003,"end":18.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.50909375,"end":33.915968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.28721875,"end":37.189718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.76346875,"end":42.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.06221875,"end":47.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.55096875,"end":49.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.626593750000005,"end":51.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.19159375,"end":58.924718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.95846875,"end":60.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.94971875,"end":64.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.86471875000001,"end":67.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.81784375000001,"end":71.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.23909375000001,"end":79.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.41096875000001,"end":91.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.44284375000001,"end":122.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.66221875000001,"end":91.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.96596875,"end":91.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.19409375000001,"end":117.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.54346875,"end":138.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.72659375,"end":139.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.73909375,"end":140.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.29159375,"end":155.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.56784375,"end":158.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.47034375,"end":158.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.77409375000002,"end":166.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.48596875,"end":171.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.70034375,"end":203.10471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.07534375,"end":206.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.87221875,"end":207.18846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.18846875000003,"end":224.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.27284375000002,"end":207.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.04221875000002,"end":234.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.04909375000003,"end":241.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.90909375,"end":241.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.66409375,"end":257.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.78409375,"end":259.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.95221875000004,"end":267.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.01971875000004,"end":261.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.99346875000003,"end":282.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.92346875000004,"end":293.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.62221875,"end":295.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.81596875,"end":303.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.65846875,"end":307.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.45971875000004,"end":307.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.89846875,"end":310.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.75034375,"end":310.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.72909375,"end":314.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.20971875000004,"end":318.25971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.23909375,"end":320.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.52534375000005,"end":323.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.09846875,"end":324.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.09409375,"end":325.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":325.34721875,"end":330.46034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.05534375,"end":334.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":333.75096875,"end":349.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.06096875000003,"end":350.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":350.15346875,"end":356.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.80284375,"end":354.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.22846875000005,"end":361.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.59471875,"end":364.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.96971875,"end":366.9947187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我們一樣請彭部長請彭部長齊委員好部長好上次跟部長討論過我們陸域風機新設的問題那我現在發現我們後龍好望角這個地方那邊有21座的風機將在2027年會年滿20年那現在廠商提出更新計畫 更新計畫之後"},{"start":37.796,"end":51.125,"text":"我聽說要加寬跟加高會差不多是現在的兩倍那周圍大概有229戶的居民會受到影響那這次的更新案居民反彈都非常大"},{"start":52.41,"end":78.477,"text":"環民第一次審查之後環民委員要求廠商量化說明我們風機噪音、震動、眩影對民宅還有敏感受體的影響及差異性還要強化減輕對策及檢討風機更新改建的位置跟數量但是居民是希望大風車可以滾出社區這部分環境部可以擋在第一線嗎?"},{"start":79.977,"end":107.151,"text":"因為這個是以前20年前可能是20年前弄的他那時候沒有環評所以現在其實如果他新蓋的重新再來那這個就要環評這個部分就會進到我們程序那也跟委員報告現在因為我們的環評委員對於這個陸域風機大概500公尺半徑500公尺其實有影響到這個500公尺內有建築物的都是很嚴格審查的"},{"start":107.551,"end":122.305,"text":"包含了眩影、低頻噪音、震動等等這個我很放心如果有這樣的情況我們因為目前還有好幾個案例像這樣都非常難過非常難過當然我不能說限制說他不能申請但是非常難過一定要特別小心"},{"start":122.905,"end":137.362,"text":"對啦,因為這個對居民的影響非常大,他們忍受了20年那現在當然我們一直以來對於陸域風這個風機的設置本來現在就已經在做調整那我希望環境部在這邊一定要做好嚴格把關的這個動作"},{"start":138.803,"end":153.558,"text":"那我再來問就是說報導指出在2025年夏天拆下來的風機葉片累積的高度會有1050公尺接近兩座101大樓的高度那未來10年將有900隻的"},{"start":156.581,"end":171.163,"text":"這個廢棄葉片退役是這樣嗎那這些東西又沒辦法回收那國外是一般是粉碎來掩埋那台灣土地這麼小垃圾現在都還沒有辦法處理那我們未來的處理方式會怎麼樣"},{"start":172.244,"end":196.855,"text":"報告委員其實現在當然有一些處理的方式因為當時對於管制這個並沒有那麼嚴格我們現在正在修相關的法例例如說支援循環的推動法我們希望下個會期送到立法院其實未來針對這樣的不管是太陽能或是風機它要預先的去做處理所以目前來說的話我們大概是可以把它變成透過水泥窯的燃燒變成一種低碳水泥"},{"start":197.615,"end":224.056,"text":"來做使用或是說其實它的纖維材料也可以作為一個建材所以它不應該是廢棄物啦已經有這個技術可以處理了已經有一個技術了對 因為它如果拿來 我覺得如果掩埋它也是我們沒那麼多地方嘛那如果拿來燒我們又擔心碳排然後還有一些空污的問題啦那這部分現在我們以前20年前做的這些東西它確實已經找到這個回收的辦法有這樣的技術就對了"},{"start":225.157,"end":247.157,"text":"那各位報告,現在我們已經有把一些葉片做一些試驗,然後去切片之後送到水養去當作燃料或是材料那未來如果新設的這些材料,它會跟這個一樣還是說你們有規範說它一定要用什麼?是,那以後這些案場就要負起後面回收的責任"},{"start":247.877,"end":249.819,"text":"方式上面我們還在討論後面一定要讓他在20年廢棄之後能夠把這些妥善的處理我們有限制他財資"},{"start":261.587,"end":282.258,"text":"因為這個風機它有一些它自己使用上的特性,因為它要能夠在選擇區域你們在審核的時候,我希望說現在已經20年前的這些材料你都有辦法它來做回收利用了嗎?當然我們希望也把這些東西列入,列入未來在審核的標準的一個標準,可以嗎?"},{"start":283.038,"end":305.85,"text":"它現在是一種玻璃纖維啦所以它基本上對環境是無害的但是基本上如果它變成廢棄物如何處理那這個就是我們必須要去管制或關注的這個焦點因為我想也會聽到說我們台電跟風電業者可能會申請這個研議5到10年那這部分的標準是誰來審查?是怎麼審查的?風機研議5到10年"},{"start":311.783,"end":321.268,"text":"我們還沒有聽過風機演繹舞蹈目前沒有嗎?台電有在提?可能是能源署那邊如果是他們提,我們環境部立場是什麼?"},{"start":325.457,"end":344.231,"text":"如果是風機的原因要看他是拆除以後是不是重新申請許可如果他沒拆除就繼續用他認為說他還可以用繼續用的話基本上我們是沒有在我們的環評的相關規定裡面去規範但是我們所知的因為現在科技的進步很多小的風機會拆除然後重新申請許可"},{"start":344.651,"end":366.743,"text":"那他改成大的風機重新申請的這個風機的許可就會他如果研議他換一些材料你也看不出來換材料這種的就不是整支的這個風機的企劃那這個就不是由我們來管理因為他當初申請的年限到了那如果到了又申請研議我現在好奇就是說因為他可能還有些東西是可能還可以用的那但是居民在等他拆啊"},{"start":367.583,"end":392.602,"text":"對不對 那你又突然演繹 那我們環境部又沒有 也沒有介入去做一個審核的機制嗎 完全都沒有各位人報告 因為就環評的部分 因為環評是一個預防的機制所以我們管的通常都是一個新建 一個新的案場那如果你是因為 不管是風機或其他開發行為 如果是因為零件要替換我覺得這樣啦 另外一個層次"},{"start":392.802,"end":419.443,"text":"研議的部分我希望環境部也能夠去參與啦好不好部長你再了解一下我再來了解一下謝謝委員建議那另外關於PFACE這個部分我們列了357種PFACE的化合物是有毒的化學物質嘛那是做管制並沒有禁用歐盟是在2030年他就要淘汰整個PFACE類別我們會跟進嗎"},{"start":422.041,"end":442.572,"text":"跟委員報告,其實我們公告的物質都是跟著市的公約的公告期程他們禁用的部分,應該會有一個禁限用我們跟著他大概在一年多,我們國內也公告出來因為我還要產業調查跟調整,所以我們都會follow這個公約來走所以他整個淘汰,我們整個就拿掉他?對"},{"start":443.573,"end":460.036,"text":"那現在勒剛剛委員所提到的357那裡面是有進線用的那歐盟的本身因為他歐盟歐盟雖然是那個歐盟他雖然是私的跟我們公約的會員國不過他本身會再做寬一點的調查所以這個資料我們也都在收集"},{"start":460.436,"end":473.469,"text":"對 因為我現在比較好奇就是說我們現在一般產品頂多就是不含酸粉不含塑化劑對不對 我們有沒有標示什麼有沒有含環境荷爾蒙這部分"},{"start":474.111,"end":499.219,"text":"有 這個就是在產品 我們舉個例子就像大家會習慣 你們有標章嗎 有這個標章嗎我們如果是有環保標章的 就會按照我們的規範來做 這會給他都會給他 那我們舉個例子就是大家關心以前的用途很廣 因為像不沾鍋 食品包裝 衣服或化妝品等等這些都可能會有這些東西嘛那所以 我是希望說我們能夠清楚標示給我們的消費者去選擇啦"},{"start":500.913,"end":518.027,"text":"所以我們會來鼓勵業者那前幾天我去賣場其實看那個很多的不沾鍋都會都會有個標籤寫說不含PFOA或者是其他的梳化劑都會有現在慢慢的這業者的自主的一個標示因為這個我想管的這個部會也很"},{"start":519.948,"end":536.443,"text":"衛福部也管環境部也管還有經濟部還有農業部所以我希望大家有一套標準能夠橫向的聯繫能夠統一讓我們消費者可以很清楚的就可以去辨識這樣好嗎是我們在跨部會小組來討論最後我再請教我們部長"},{"start":537.344,"end":562.604,"text":"我們那天到苗栗嘛,謝謝部長到苗栗來關心我們苗栗的這個我們當時有提到一個叫循環園區,那部長這個計畫會有期程嗎?我們現在在爭取行政院的預算當中,如果爭取得到因為這個是我們近鄰推動的一個項目,那這個是明年的經費啦那也希望我們可以爭取得到,那當然這個就希望全台灣有一些將將的點"},{"start":563.965,"end":579.973,"text":"那也謝謝委員因為那個土資廠這個例如說我們的營建廢棄物的處理因為苗栗有這樣的這個能力也很主動來做所以這個未來我是覺得如果配合的好的話我是覺得這個是一個蠻好的一個機會除了現在苗栗市的掩埋廠現在活化"},{"start":580.473,"end":604.301,"text":"那另外現在就是循環園區的一個爭取啦我們來地方跟中央來一起合作那另外還有我們竹南它的粉化掩埋場的部分它那邊的場域也蠻大的嘛這個部長有考量嗎好這個我們來研究好不好因為這個還有一點點時間因為開始要做爭取經費然後後面的未來的這個施工或規劃都有一點時間那我們是樂觀啟程好謝謝部長謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":618,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時6分）主席好。我一樣請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。上次跟部長討論過陸域風機新設的問題，我現在發現後龍好望角這個地方有21座風機將在2027年會年滿20年，現在廠商提出更新計畫，更新計畫之後，我聽說要加寬跟加高，差不多是現在的兩倍，周圍大概有229戶的居民會受到影響，這次的更新案，居民反彈都非常大，環評第一次審查之後，環評委員要求廠商量化說明有關風機噪音、震動、眩影對民宅還有敏感受體的影響及差異性，還要強化減輕對策並檢討風機更新改建的位置跟數量，但是居民是希望大風車可以滾出社區，這部分環境部可以擋在第一線嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為這個是以前、可能是20年前弄的，那時候沒有環評，所以現在如果是新蓋的、重新再來就要環評，這個部分就會進到我們的程序，也跟委員報告，現在因為我們的環評委員對於陸域風機大概半徑500公尺內有建築物的，都是很嚴格審查，包含眩影、低頻噪音、震動等等。委員放心，如果有這樣的情況，因為目前有好幾個案例像這樣都非常難過、非常難過，當然我不能限制它不能申請，但是非常難過，一定要特別小心。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，因為這個對居民的影響非常大，他們忍受了20年，我們一直以來對於陸域風機的設置，本來現在就已經在做調整，我希望環境部在這邊一定要做好嚴格把關的動作。我再來問，報導指出，在2025年夏天拆下來的風機葉片累積高度會有1,050公尺，接近兩座101大樓的高度，未來10年將有900支的廢棄葉片退役，是這樣嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這些東西又沒辦法回收，國外一般是粉碎掩埋，臺灣土地這麼小，垃圾到現在都還沒有辦法處理，我們未來的處理方式會是怎麼樣？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實現在當然有一些處理方式，因為當時對於這個管制並沒有那麼嚴格，我們現在正在修相關的法令，例如資源循環推動法，我們希望下個會期送到立法院。未來不管是針對太陽能或風機，它要預先處理，目前來說的話，我們大概可以透過水泥窯的燃燒把它變成一種低碳水泥來使用，或是它的纖維材料也可以做為建材，所以它不應該是廢棄物啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：已經有這個技術可以處理了？"],["彭部長啓明：已經有一個技術了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果拿來掩埋，我們也沒有那麼多地方，如果拿來燒，我們又擔心碳排，然後還有一些空污的問題。我們二十年前做的這些東西，確實已經找到回收的辦法，有這樣的技術就對了？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，現在我們已經有把一些葉片做一些試驗，切片之後送到水泥窯去當做燃料或是材料。"],["邱委員鎮軍：未來新設的這些材料呢？它會跟這個一樣，還是你們有規範它一定要用什麼？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：以後這些案場就要負起後面回收的責任，方式上面我們還在討論，一定要讓它在二十年廢棄之後，能夠把這些妥善的處理，送到我剛剛講的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在我們有限制它的材質嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：因為風機有它自己使用上的特性，它要能夠在……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們在審核的時候，我希望……對於二十年前的這些材料，你們都有辦法來做回收利用了嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：可以。"],["邱委員鎮軍：當然我們希望也把這些東西列入未來審核的標準，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：它現在是一種玻璃纖維，所以它基本上對環境是無害的，但如果它變成廢棄物該如何處理，這就是我們必須要去管制或關注的焦點。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我聽說台電跟風電業者可能會申請延役五到十年，這部分的標準是誰來審查？是怎麼審查的？"],["彭部長啓明：風機延役五到十年……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，延役的問題。"],["彭部長啓明：我們還沒有聽過風機延役五到十年。"],["邱委員鎮軍：目前沒有嗎？有沒有人在提？台電有在提耶！"],["彭部長啓明：可能是能源署那邊，我們沒有提到。"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果是他們提的，環境部的立場是什麼？"],["呂副司長雅雯：如果是風機的延役，要看它拆除以後是不是重新申請許可，如果是重新申請……"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果它沒拆除呢？就是繼續用啊！他認為它還可以用。"],["呂副司長雅雯：繼續用的話。基本上是沒有在我們的環評相關規定裡面去規範，但是就我們所知，因為現在科技的進步，很多小的風機會拆除，然後重新申請許可，它改成大的風機，重新申請的風機許可就會依照現行規定。"],["邱委員鎮軍：它如果延役，換一些材料你也看不出來啊！"],["呂副司長雅雯：換材料就不是整支風機的替換……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，你們也不知道啊！"],["呂副司長雅雯：這個就不是由我們來管理，因為……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為它當初申請的年限到了，如果到了又申請延役，我現在好奇的是，因為它有些東西可能還是可以用的，但是居民在等它拆，對不對？結果它又突然延役，難道環境部沒有介入審核的機制嗎？完全都沒有嗎？"],["呂副司長雅雯：跟委員報告，就環評的部分而言，因為環評是一個預防的機制，所以我們管的通常都是新的案場，不管是風機或其它開發行為，如果是因為零件要替換或是延役，那是另外一個層次……"],["邱委員鎮軍：針對延役的部分，我希望環境部也能夠參與好不好？請部長再了解一下。"],["彭部長啓明：好，我再來了解一下，謝謝委員建議。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，關於PFAS的部分，我們列了357種PFAS化合物是有毒的化學物質，這部分是加以管制，並沒有禁用，歐盟是在2030年就要淘汰整個PFAS類別，我們會跟進嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：會。"],["謝署長燕儒：跟委員報告，其實我們公告的物質都是跟著斯德哥爾摩公約的公告期程，他們禁用的部分……應該會有一個禁限用，我們會跟著他們，大概再一年多國內也會公告出來，因為還要產業調查跟調整，其實我們都會follow這個公約來走。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以他們整個淘汰我們就整個拿掉是嗎？"],["謝署長燕儒：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那現在呢？"],["謝署長燕儒：剛剛委員所提到的那357種，那裡面是有禁限用的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對。"],["謝署長燕儒：歐盟雖然是斯德哥爾摩公約的會員國，不過他本身會再做寬一點的調查，這個資料我們也都在蒐集。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我現在比較好奇的是，現在一般產品頂多就是標示不含雙酚A、不含塑化劑，對不對？我們有沒有標示是否含環境荷爾蒙這個部分？"],["謝署長燕儒：有，這個就是在產品……我舉個例子，就像大家會習慣……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們有標章嗎？有這個標章嗎？"],["謝署長燕儒：如果是有環保標章的，就會按照我們的規範來走，這會給它……"],["邱委員鎮軍：都會給是嗎？"],["謝署長燕儒：舉個例子，就是大家關心的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為以前的用途很廣，像不沾鍋、食品包裝、衣服或化妝品等等都可能會有這些東西，所以我希望能夠清楚標示讓我們的消費者去選擇。"],["謝署長燕儒：我們會鼓勵業者，前幾天我去賣場看到很多不沾鍋都有標籤標示不含PFOA或是其他的塑化劑，現在慢慢都有業者自主的標示。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個部分管理的部會也很多，衛福部也管，環境部也管，還有經濟部、農業部，所以我希望大家有一套標準能夠橫向聯繫、能夠統一，讓我們的消費者可以很清楚的辨識，這樣好嗎？"],["謝署長燕儒：是，我們會在跨部會小組討論。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我再請教部長，我們那天到苗栗去，謝謝部長到苗栗來關心苗栗的情況，當時有提到循環園區，請問部長這個計畫會有期程嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們現在在爭取行政院的預算當中，因為這是我們淨零推動的一個項目，這是明年的經費，也希望我們可以爭取得到，當然我們也希望全臺灣有一些像這樣的點。在此也要謝謝委員，關於土資場，針對營建廢棄物的處理，因為苗栗有這樣的能力，也很主動來做，未來如果配合得好的話，我覺得這是一個蠻好的機會，我們樂觀其成。"],["邱委員鎮軍：除了苗栗市的掩埋場活化，現在就是循環園區的爭取，地方跟中央要來一起合作。另外還有竹南掩埋場的部分，那邊的場域也蠻大的，這個部長有考量嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們來研究好不好？目前還有一點點時間，因為開始要爭取經費，包括未來的施工或規劃都還有一點時間，我們是樂觀其成。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員。","接下來請王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林淑芬","王正旭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","陳培瑜","楊曜","盧縣一","蔡易餘","廖偉翔"],"page_start":369,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、勞動部及教育部就「我國推動綠色轉型政策，相關人才培育發展\n與產業政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟\n部、農業部及教育部就「全氟及多氟烷基物質(PFAS)管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化\n物相關管理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢【專題報告綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1145001_00015"}}},{"id":"161320","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161320","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_def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蓋蓋蓋一部機組抱歉"},{"start":210.496,"end":219.059,"text":"因為我們要做廚藝的一些室內乾除空間可能這原來的空間會有一點點不足沒有完全像你剛才講的那個美國可以幫你解決美國可以幫你解決我請教你根據幾個專家說一部機組大概2000億左右這個對不對"},{"start":231.383,"end":242.753,"text":"你說兩千億台幣嗎台幣我這樣子說新建機組坦白講兩千億台幣其實我們看到西方國家現在蓋機組的價格還蠻我覺得兩千億是過低估了啦差不多多少"},{"start":250.114,"end":254.178,"text":"那個沒有100億美金一部機組好 那就3000億嘛那就3000億嘛我給你算六部就是18000億嘛剛好我們現在分期來講的話這個可以縮短"},{"start":265.57,"end":268.433,"text":"台美的貿易逆差這麼正的事情 你都不要做美國現在就是要發展核電啊全世界都在發展核電啊 你們就硬不要撒謊咧 我就撒謊咧對不對 如果你們同意 如果你們說 來"},{"start":281.987,"end":297.752,"text":"我們就順順順波下雨啊這個順著這樣整個天時地利 美國爸爸都同意了全部核廢料也幫你處理了 核安也幫你處理了蓋電廠沒有問題 經營他也幫你啦這樣來說 這麼正的事情 接下來一千億就給你啦我可能就認為 只要你答應說我們要重啟火電我們一千億不為難 給你"},{"start":310.936,"end":313.839,"text":"我們少掉1000粒沒問題不要去那個1000粒給你要回答嗎我先講第一個事情喔一個國家的核能安全基本上還是要各個國家自己"},{"start":326.34,"end":352.486,"text":"來確保啊你對台電那麼有信心喔因為你一直在講台電的核電管理人力全世界前六名欸但是你剛才的講法全部是美國說可以啊美國AAT的長官講的啊AAT處長講的啊我覺得如果要討論能源議題真的不是這樣子談不是誰誰誰什麼美國爸爸就不是這種事情我們可不可以就一項一項真正要解決的問題來談請問你對台電的核電管理人力沒有信心嗎"},{"start":353.41,"end":359.235,"text":"委員你不可以這樣子說啦 我要這樣講我覺得核能的問題是過40年來台電營運核能機組超過40年這40年有它的RAC在我覺得我們要背上這個RAC一個一個來托克我們不覺得我們核電的同仁不努力台電的核電管理人力全世界排行是前幾名的喔"},{"start":381.852,"end":407.45,"text":"有人講第五名 有人講第六名 有人講第四名不管怎麼樣是名列輕某在全世界33個國家有使用核能的裡面台電是台電的運營這一段的表現很強喔 不要否定自己喔 不要驚喜喔 對不對所以你不答應就對了喔好沒關係第二個問題我到現在為止沒有答應不答應的問題我先說一個事"},{"start":411.885,"end":426.77,"text":"你昨天通過的法令它還是有一個前提昨天通過的法令是你們台北提出申請所以你不要申請就對了我們昨天就發了警告如果你有看我們的新聞你就會知道"},{"start":429.135,"end":433.117,"text":"母法說現在不論不論執照通過執照借其與否之前可以申請之後也可以申請這是這一次修正條文的內容但是對於一個申請機關就是台電受管制機關來講我們需要配套的執法他需要台電國安會要台電做哪些合理的安全檢查我們台北都做"},{"start":458.45,"end":481.295,"text":"大家聽到的是我們給媒體的大標題左軌點兩點5月17日這個河山如期除役就是沒力求 河管沒力求報告員 報告員昨天眾使是通過你的法律還是要我們送河管機關同意點拿到指導今天是5月14了嘛"},{"start":483.855,"end":486.177,"text":"今天是5月14、5月17要重新換照又要有審查的期間這怎麼可能呢報告委員我已經說了我需要有執法的相關規範來做評估"},{"start":502.199,"end":508.646,"text":"我已經一再說明我們昨天台電第一時間新聞稿也發就是經濟部的新聞稿已經發出來了要不要提出來你們不要嘛很清楚不要嘛報告委員你否認嗎各個公司要去提研議我們現在講研議還不是重啓現在是重啓研議的相關工作"},{"start":523.741,"end":534.286,"text":"確實要啟動自己內部的檢核 做過經濟效益等等評估才來做決定 國外的電廠也有提供原液成分拋回來的 請問你什麼時候評估可以做什麼時候評估可以做我覺得如果不管機"},{"start":544.091,"end":551.775,"text":"主管機關沒有執法主管機關有執法我來評估這個可以嗎而且我要告訴報告委員他的程序上面程序上面需要核能設施操作機關做全面的安全分析報告老化的報告"},{"start":562.882,"end":570.448,"text":"對 他要有這些關鍵的資訊他如果給你 你就可以做評估現在我問你 他如果有該欄給你你多久可以評估出來 你告訴我報告委員他如果該欄給你 你什麼時候評估出來如果有確定的該欄 我看他是要求那幾個分寸"},{"start":584.011,"end":603.703,"text":"你多久可以評估出來?你評估多久?我只講一件事,如果這個是要好好做,我們就是要好好做,做好相關的安全...你多久可以評估出來?你答案怎麼不出來?委員,我不知道管制單位要我考哪些試?"},{"start":604.912,"end":610.738,"text":"我就說我可以做完什麼考卷好 那這個題目你不答了再問一個題目要操作核能機組一定要被社會信任你這個特別預算你是要來要1000億喔你要來1000億喔那好 那不然第二個條件"},{"start":623.75,"end":629.513,"text":"你竟然合併跟他去碰來毆你一千億一千億的條件所以一定要去做一個要有安全前提存在的案子我要事先同意你你才要補我一千億那你這個安全前提還存在嗎"},{"start":640.178,"end":656.792,"text":"你講都聽不懂我再問你我們可以不要顧安全前提然後就直接先答應你然後再說一千億我沒有說我一定不會做這件事那你不可以這樣子這個在地法院本來是要脅台電嘛你都一直搶話讓我講我可以嗎讓我講我可以嗎"},{"start":660.033,"end":672.16,"text":"你要跟立法院要錢總是要聽我們講話嘛 對不對我們擔心的是什麼不然你承諾2028年之前絕對不漲電價2028年之前絕對不漲電價做得到嗎做得到嗎 你做得到我就支持你國際油價能夠確定它不漲嗎"},{"start":683.446,"end":688.23,"text":"所以就是三千億給你三千億補助啦你漲價四次所以你別說他錢不是漲價啊這才是問題啊來 我再看第二問題 跟這個有關係的美國的"},{"start":714.192,"end":729.503,"text":"天然氣我們要買600萬噸他們的阿拉斯卡州長說了這件事情佔阿拉斯卡的三成我們2024年進口量總共是2100多萬噸美國佔10%現在要再加600萬噸進來"},{"start":735.453,"end":744.325,"text":"原來18什麼意思 大概200噸左右啦現在等於800萬噸左右這個是不是確定的事情我們要多買600萬噸這是確定"},{"start":748.045,"end":768.797,"text":"跟國民報告因為這個採購這個這個部分是要到2032年之後我們才會啟動這樣的一個採購的一個基本上同意啊你要同意才好談啊那目前的話我們還是帶美方這邊來提供相關的這些這些相關採購的條件目前你同意嗎目前當然我們已經有簽了這個買賣的所以目前是同意的嗎同意嗎好第二個第二個第二個還有一個"},{"start":777.542,"end":786.205,"text":"從北極圈拉線到阿拉斯卡他們是美國家裡的市區的喔440億美金有1280公里書館線我們要負擔多少他要韓國日本跟我們負擔韓國日本說不要結果通通我們來負是不是這個意思我們要負擔多少我們其實都已經有簽了投資意向書了我們會參與投資但是目前那個投資的比例現在大家還沒有談"},{"start":806.653,"end":830.392,"text":"但是確定要啦 確定要 確定要對 我們是希望 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能夠 希望能"},{"start":834.898,"end":844.509,"text":"主席長 我就問你一個要跟立法院 希望立法院通過支持你們錢變特別預算比較快 還是追加預算比較快 你告訴我"},{"start":846.431,"end":862.016,"text":"都差不多 兩個都差不多最佳預算比較快啦 媽你講啦你特別預算還要特別預算通過特別預算最少一個月以上還要協商最佳預算你今天提出來只要經過院會馬上可以審啦想也知道 隨便想也知道最佳預算當然比較快啊剛才我已經沒有時間去請教我們的這個要管這個主委"},{"start":875.285,"end":896.497,"text":"你們講多重要我都支持我都支持你講2500億我也支持但是請用最佳預算快點早早拿到錢特別預算比較慢要多一個條例就多一個半月以上一多沒有我已經沒有時間了你不用來了第二個問題請問你26馬上來了"},{"start":902.16,"end":925.904,"text":"預算開始抽編了吧是已經有概算了吧已經開始抽編那個支出多少總支出大概多少還沒有彙整還沒有彙整大概 比今年多嗎不是 各單位 比今年多一點各單位正在提報 但是還沒有彙整但是你知道比今年多一點吧還不知道怎麼會不知道拜託你組織一場咧 這麼大條對不對報告 留一點版面給人家吧好"},{"start":930.831,"end":935.617,"text":"沒有啦 我沒有版面啦 我來這裡沒版面的最後一個國防預算是不是確定的3%就你這個 總要回答我一點啦你沒一點都不回答我我們是往這方面來努力3%啦喔 國防預算3%好 謝謝好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":508,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時59分）謝謝主席，以及各位先進，有請經濟部何次長。"],["主席：請何次長。"],["何次長晉滄：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：權宜問題先問一下，主席，郭部長今天又請假？"],["主席：他去美國談關稅。"],["賴委員士葆：去美國，好。"],["主席：重要事情。"],["賴委員士葆：為何老是在我質詢時請假？好奇怪，雖然每次他都言之無物，但我還是希望跟他對話啦！","何次長，我請教你，昨天核管法通過，結果卓榮泰、卓揆不鳥，表示5月17日如期除役。有專家算了延役要花900億，可是延20年可以省1兆2,000億，多賺1兆2,000億，結果這生意不做。900億VS. 1.2兆億，法給你了，然後川普這兩天說讓美國的核電再次偉大，要蓋4倍的核電廠，這是川普講的。AIT的主席也公開講了，都是這兩天的事情，AIT主席講：民進黨所擔心的核安問題，美國負責；核廢料問題，美國負責。你們是在怕什麼？全世界找不到這麼貼心的在野黨，法都給你們弄好了，結果你們不鳥耶！還要擁抱一個虛幻的非核家園。何次長，你可以回答嗎？還是要曾董事長回答？"],["何次長晉滄：我先跟委員報告一下，整個核電的延役是要確保核電的安全……"],["賴委員士葆：安全由美國負責啊！"],["何次長晉滄：安全……"],["賴委員士葆：美國負責啊！"],["何次長晉滄：它需要做一個總體檢。"],["賴委員士葆：美國負責啊！"],["何次長晉滄：需要做總體檢。"],["賴委員士葆：美國負責啊！"],["何次長晉滄：所以這個……"],["賴委員士葆：由美國負責啊！"],["何次長晉滄：核電的安全應該是全民最關切的。"],["賴委員士葆：美國負責啊！美國負責啊！"],["何次長晉滄：不過……"],["賴委員士葆：AIT主席谷立言在臉書表示，美國負責核電的……來，我請教曾董事長，核一廠有沒有空間？原來四部機，對不對？原來蓋了四部機，結果用了兩部機，已收了兩部機。"],["曾董事長文生：核一廠現在是兩部機已經除役。"],["賴委員士葆：但是它的空間有幾部機？"],["曾董事長文生：原來最早期規劃的時候可以放四部。"],["賴委員士葆：四部機嘛！所以核一就有兩部機的空間，核二也是有兩部機的空間，核三有四部機的空間，我這樣講對嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，你是要講新蓋？"],["賴委員士葆：是新蓋啊！美國就是要做這個生意啊！"],["曾董事長文生：新蓋機組？"],["賴委員士葆：新蓋機組，美國人來蓋啊！"],["曾董事長文生：那個是原來預留的空間。"],["賴委員士葆：我請問你，蓋一部機組多少錢？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，你讓我修正一點，因為我們要做除役的一些室內乾貯空間，可能這原來的空間會有一點點不足，沒有完全像你剛才講的……"],["賴委員士葆：那個美國可以幫你解決。我請教你，根據幾個專家的說法，蓋一部機組大概2,000億左右，這個對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：你說2,000億臺幣嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：臺幣。"],["曾董事長文生：我這樣子說，若要新建機組，坦白講2,000億臺幣……其實我們看到西方國家，現在蓋機組的價格還蠻……我覺得2,000億是低估了。"],["賴委員士葆：差不多要多少？你講差不多要多少？"],["曾董事長文生：一部機組沒有100億美金是蓋不起來的。"],["賴委員士葆：好，那就3,000億，若是算六部，就是1兆8,000億，剛好我們現在分期來講的話，這個可以縮短臺美的貿易逆差，這麼讚的事情你們都不做。美國現在就是要發展核電，全世界都在發展核電，你們就硬不要，我就搞不懂，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，我……"],["賴委員士葆：如果你們同意順坡下驢，順著整個天時、地利，美國爸爸都同意了，全部核廢料也幫你們處理了、核安也幫你們處理了，蓋電廠沒有問題，經營它也幫你們，這樣來說，這麼讚的事情，接下來1,000億就給你們啦！我個人就認為只要你答應要重啟核電，我們1,000億不為難，給你！我們少掉1,000億，沒問題，就給1,000億！結果你也不要。"],["曾董事長文生：你要我回答嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：好，回答，我當然要你回答。"],["曾董事長文生：我先講第一個事情，各個國家的核能安全，基本上還是要各個國家自己來確保。"],["賴委員士葆：你對台電那麼沒信心？台電的核電管理能力全世界前6名耶！"],["曾董事長文生：你剛才的講法全部是美國說可以。"],["賴委員士葆：美國AIT處長講的啊。"],["曾董事長文生：我覺得如果要討論能源議題，真的不是這樣子談，不是誰、誰、誰，什麼美國爸爸，就不是這種事情。我們可不可以一項、一項針對真正需要解決的問題來討論？"],["賴委員士葆：請問你對台電的核電管理能力沒有信心嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，不可以這樣子說。我要這樣講，我覺得核能的問題，台電營運核能機組超過40年……"],["賴委員士葆：對。"],["曾董事長文生：這40年有record在。"],["賴委員士葆：對。"],["曾董事長文生：我覺得要based on record一個一個來討論……"],["賴委員士葆：我是給你肯定的哦！"],["曾董事長文生：我不覺得我們核電廠的同仁不努力，我也不覺得……"],["賴委員士葆：台電的核電管理能力在全世界排行是前幾名的哦！有人講第5名、有人講第6名、有人講第4名，不管怎麼樣是名列前茅，到目前為止沒有出過一件事情。"],["曾董事長文生：在全世界33個有使用核能的國家裡面，台電運營這部分的表現一直在前5名之內。"],["賴委員士葆：很強哦！不要否定自己！不要怕死！所以你不答應就對了？好，沒關係。"],["曾董事長文生：委員，我到現在為止沒有答應不答應的問題，我先說一件事，昨天通過的法令，還是有一個前提，前提就是要送……"],["賴委員士葆：昨天通過的法令是「得」，是由台電提出申請，所以你不要申請就對了？"],["曾董事長文生：我們昨天就發了新聞稿，如果你有看我們的新聞稿就會知道，母法說現在不論……"],["賴委員士葆：得、得、得……"],["曾董事長文生：你讓我講完好不好？"],["賴委員士葆：好。"],["曾董事長文生：不論執照屆期與否，之前可以申請，之後也可以申請，這是這一次修正條文的內容。但是對於申請機關，就是台電、受管制機關來講，我們需要配套的子法，核安會需要台電做哪些合理的安全檢查，我們才能夠做相關的工作。"],["賴委員士葆：你說得「落落長」，大家聽不懂。大家聽到的是媒體的大標題「卓揆：5月17日核三如期除役。」就是這樣，就是卓揆不理會。"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，昨天縱使是通過法律，還是要我們送核管機關同意才能拿到執照。今天是5月14，5月17要重新換照，又有審查的期間，這個怎麼可能呢？"],["賴委員士葆：不是，我就問你要不要提出來？我就問你這個，你沒有給我答案。要不要提出來？你不用講一堆，要或不要？"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，我已經說了，我需要有子法的相關規範來評估，我已經一再說明，昨天台電第一時間也發出新聞稿，就是經濟部的新聞稿已經發出來了……"],["賴委員士葆：要不要提出來？你們不要嘛！很清楚你不要嘛！你否認嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，各個公司要去提延役，我們現在講延役還不是重啟，延役的相關工作，確實要啟動自己內部的檢核，做過經濟效益等等評估才來做決定，國外的電廠也有提出延役申請之後抽回來的，各種可能都有。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你什麼時候評估可以做完？"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，我覺得如果主管機關……"],["賴委員士葆：一個月可以嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：如果主管機關有子法，我來評估，這樣可以嗎？而且我要報告委員，程序上需要核能設施操作機關做全面的安全分析報告、老化的報告，以及……"],["賴委員士葆：你講的是核安會，是不是？"],["曾董事長文生：對。要有這些關鍵的子法，確定我們該做什麼事，我們才有基礎做評估。"],["賴委員士葆：它如果給你guideline，你多久可以評估出來？你告訴我。"],["曾董事長文生：如果有確定的guideline，我看它是要求哪些分析……"],["賴委員士葆：你多久可以評估出來？"],["曾董事長文生：我要看是哪些分析。我只講一件事，如果這個事要好好做，我們就是要好好做，做好相關的安全的準備工作……"],["賴委員士葆：你多久可以評估出來？問你都問不出來答案。兩個月能評估出來嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：我不知道管制單位要我考哪些試，我就說我可以做完什麼考卷，我覺得如果要操作核能機組，一定要被社會信任，我真的不覺得草率地回答是一個很好的回答。"],["賴委員士葆：這次的特別預算，你要來要1,000億。好，不然第二個條件，你既然核電不敢去碰……"],["曾董事長文生：1,000億的條件是一定要有安全前提存在的案子，我要事先同意，你才要補我1,000億，這樣的安全前提還存在嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：你說的我都聽不懂。來，我再問你，你可不可以答應拿了1,000億……"],["曾董事長文生：我們可以不顧安全前提先答應你，然後來拿1,000億……我沒有說我一定不會做這件事，但你不可以這樣子，這個在立法院等於是要脅台電嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：你都一直搶話，讓我講完可以嗎？你要跟立法院要錢，總是要聽我們講話，我們擔心的是什麼嘛！不然你承諾2028年之前絕對不漲電價。"],["曾董事長文生：什麼？"],["賴委員士葆：2028年之前絕對不漲電價，做得到嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，但是我不能夠……"],["賴委員士葆：做得到嗎？你做得到，我就給，我就支持。"],["曾董事長文生：國際油價能夠確定它不漲嗎？布蘭特原油天天都在浮動，一定不漲嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：我們已經補助……"],["曾董事長文生：不可能是這樣！市場的事情不可能一定不變。"],["賴委員士葆：我的時間已經到了，讓我講完。已經補助你們3,000億，你們漲價四次，一邊跟我們拿錢、一邊漲價！這才是問題啊！"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，3,000億不是補助，而是增資，並無法處理累計虧損。"],["賴委員士葆：來，我再看第二個問題，跟這個也有關係。美國的天然氣，我們要買600萬噸，阿拉斯加州長說，這件事情占阿拉斯加的三成，我們2024年進口量總共是兩千一百多萬噸，美國占10%，現在要再加600萬噸進來，原來10%什麼意思，大概就是200噸左右，現在是800萬噸左右，這個是不是確定的事情？我們要多買600萬噸，這是確定的嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，採購的部分是到2032年之後，我們才會啟動採購……"],["賴委員士葆：基本上，你要同意才好談。"],["何次長晉滄：對，目前我們還是待美方提供採購相關的條件。"],["賴委員士葆：目前你同意嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：目前當然我們已經有簽了買賣的……"],["賴委員士葆：所以目前是同意嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：同意書。"],["賴委員士葆：第二個，從北極圈拉線到阿拉斯加，這是美國家裡的事情，440億美金有1,280公里的輸管線，我們要負擔多少？他要韓國、日本跟我們負擔，韓國、日本說不要，結果通通由我們來付，是不是這個意思？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們其實都已經有簽投資意向書，我們會參與投資，但是目前投資的比例現在大家還沒有談。"],["賴委員士葆：但是確定要？"],["何次長晉滄：確定要。我們是希望能夠……"],["賴委員士葆：何次長這個真的有一點「盼仔」的感覺，他們蓋房子，怎麼要我們幫忙？很奇怪！","最後我請教主計長，主計長很有內涵，讓你表現一下。主計長，我只要1分鐘，我就問你，希望立法院通過支持你們預算，編特別預算比較快還是追加預算比較快？你告訴我。"],["陳主計長淑姿：都差不多，兩個都差不多。"],["賴委員士葆：追加預算比較快啦！不能這樣說啦！特別預算還要特別預算通過，特別預算最少要一個月以上，還要協商。追加預算，你今天提出來，只要經過院會馬上可以審啦！隨便想也知道，追加預算當然比較快啊！剛才你們講這多重要，我都支持！你講2,500億，我也支持，但是請用追加預算比較快！早早拿到錢，特別預算比較慢，要多一個條例，就多一個半月以上。第二個問題，請問你，2026馬上來了，預算開始籌編了吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["賴委員士葆：已經有概算了吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：已經開始籌編了。"],["賴委員士葆：總支出大概多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：還沒有彙整，各單位正在提報。"],["賴委員士葆：比今年多嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，各單位正在提報，但是還沒有彙整。"],["賴委員士葆：但是你知道比今年多一點吧？"],["陳主計長淑姿：還不知道。"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼會不知道？拜託，你是主計長，這麼大，對不對？"],["主席：葆哥，留點版面給人家吧！"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啦，我沒有版面，來這裡沒版面的。最後一個，國防預算是不是確定占3%？你總要回答我一點，你們都不回答我……"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是往這方面來努力。"],["賴委員士葆：國防預算3%啦，好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請邱議瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","蔡易餘","陳超明","邱志偉","羅明才","楊瓊瓔","葉元之","王正旭","陳玉珍","邱鎮軍","顏寬恒","翁曉玲","蘇清泉","王美惠","許宇甄","牛煦庭"],"page_start":41,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、行政院函請審議「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案；\n二、本院國民黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例草案」案；三、\n本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢衝擊強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案」案；四、本院委\n員蔡易餘等18人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案；五、本院\n委員王美惠等17人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1144901_00002"}}},{"id":"161319","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161319","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971bea99520202a3c68aebe85dec65e1b6405433fb1cebf983d86c7d451d8d01ad695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"10:01:00 - 10:10:21","影片長度":"00:09:21","會議時間":"2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱若華等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n 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謝謝我還是請蘇衛部的葉林次長因為我認為國科會已經是接近智庫的這樣的一個性質提供相關的研究以及研究的這樣的都是以發包來作為一個處理的方式那其實量能是不足的在以後要處理AI基本法不管是相關法令以及相關的執行方面"},{"start":35.277,"end":56.312,"text":"國科會這個重擔是承擔不起來我請教一下市長我們針對AI主權這是國際科技發展的一個重點重要的戰略的一個位置因為它關係到經濟的發展以及相關的資安更是世界各國投入很多的資源"},{"start":57.253,"end":74.242,"text":"要來作為數位的主權跟國家安全一個重要的基礎但是目前我們台灣在目前相關的AI主權方面還是有很多的問題第一個我們的晶片儘管是領先全球但是我們的AI的關鍵技術"},{"start":75.843,"end":97.197,"text":"卻是高度的依賴國外我非常的擔心說在AI主權未來的一個發展我們只是硬體的一個供應者而不是關鍵技術的擁有者那我們也缺乏本土的大型的語言模型演算法跟資料的自主權我們哪裡掌握我們自己AI產業的這種主導權這是一個問題"},{"start":102.02,"end":120.913,"text":"請教一下次長你們有什麼相關因應的方法嗎好 第一件事情跟委員報告就是當然AI晶片當然是非常重要當然AI關鍵技術的確如委員所說不只如此但是台灣作為國際產業鏈的一部分那我們會發展跟本土有關的這個AI的新創技術所以我們其實在這個國發會資源之下我們已經匡列國發基金來投資AI新創事業那有關語言模型的部分"},{"start":129.119,"end":147.675,"text":"當然我們國科會過去在台德也是在國際的這個開源模型上面做發展但是中間這個非常重要的一部分就是委員了解說資料的自主特別是台灣的資料如何能夠進入這個大園的模型所以本部現在正在積極的推動準備建立"},{"start":149.096,"end":168.734,"text":"台灣的AI主權的語料庫那先從政府開始做你們的AI核心技術我們欠缺的就是相關的這種大型的語言模型還有相關的演算法我們都是明顯落後在國際的這樣的一個科技的巨頭你們有什麼處理方式嗎"},{"start":170.231,"end":196.003,"text":"我們其實應該就是我剛才跟委員報告就是其實國際的科技所謂的科技的公司他們過去已經投入了大量的資本跟訓練的成本那我們其實應該在他已經既有的基礎上面去做市長我請教我們政府會投入穩定的資金以及相關的計算的資源來支持我們本土型的這種語言模型嗎是的"},{"start":197.923,"end":224.675,"text":"實際的部分我剛剛已經跟委員報告過那國發會已經匡列了這個國發基金這個100億那會進行這個長期的投資那算力的部分除了這個國科會當然有高速電腦中心支援科研之外那本部也會有提供算力來支援特別是中小企業的這個算力的市長我們還是要加速我們產學的合作平台我們對於相關的成品的這樣的一個商品化還有技術落地這個部分還是要加強"},{"start":225.735,"end":243.805,"text":"是 我完全贊成就是說提供算力 提供資金甚至提供行銷 提供資料這是本部在這個AI發展上會提供另外就是我們的留不住人才這個危機也是嚴重的警訊那我們AI高階人才嚴重流失但是產業的發展又非常的快速"},{"start":244.665,"end":263.27,"text":"教育信念跟相關的薪資結構仍然是落後了而且我們也缺乏對AI人才長期職雅的一個新一例來說明一下我們有什麼解決方式人才部分其實台灣對AI人才是非常的去渴求但我們大概有整體的規劃"},{"start":264.19,"end":292.75,"text":"那在AI人才有包括高階人才譬如研發人才那這主要會由國科會跟教育部再從學研或科研方面去著手那重要的是產業的部分那本部的這個數位產業署那會提供非常多的這個產業方面的這個這個人才訓練的課程甚至於國際的公司譬如說Microsoft舉辦工作坊的方式來進行那公務的部分我們也在跟人事總處進行合作希望每一個公務員都具有人工智慧的素養市長我們還是要推動啊"},{"start":292.97,"end":307.036,"text":"有競爭力的這種人才的薪資制度這是留住人才一個最重要的基礎那我們要鼓勵國際跟本土AI企業來設研發中心那重新設計AI相關的課程跟資訊計畫回應實務的需求來補充說明一下"},{"start":311.568,"end":326.616,"text":"現在委員講的都是非常正確的就是說當然如何提供比較好的薪資制度這大概是整個產業的問題那特別跟國際方面的合作那大概也是我們數位產業署一直持續的目標就我剛才跟委員報告的"},{"start":328.417,"end":351.909,"text":"我們跟所謂的國際大廠會媒合本土的不管是學生也好或者是產業人才也好希望能夠共同的合作那重新設計AI相關的課程跟執訓計畫我相信不管是國科委教育部或勞動部大概一直都在這部分努力那我們也會特別在公務人才的部分跟這個人事總處來合作那希望公務員的部分也有相對應的這個AI素養跟AI的能力"},{"start":352.389,"end":367.176,"text":"現在AI產業發展會場的迅速但是我們政策的推動跟政府部門這種跨部門的協力合作效率是不高的那這樣會導致資源分散以及政策推動的這個緩慢"},{"start":368.797,"end":394.466,"text":"那所以立法院在制定相關法令的時候必須跟行政部門跟產業界大家更密切的對話能夠讓這種跨部門的合作能夠讓政策推動效率更高所以我們現在必須有成立專責的統籌單位全面的來整合並管理AI發展的這個政策資金以及相關資源的分配我們現在有召開跨部門的協調會議嗎"},{"start":396.067,"end":410.844,"text":"有的我們在102年行政院也成立了數位政策法制這個協調的這個專案的會議那由經濟的政委科技的政委跟法制的政委來共同協調各部會那剛才這個國科會報告也提到不管是AI"},{"start":411.004,"end":438.606,"text":"也好或資料發展也好或者是個資保護也好那都有進行定期跨部門會議那譬如定期召開其實我們大概昨天也在這個吳主委的主持下我們才召開過會議所以這個會議會持續的進行現在我們討論到資料問題我們看到資料的授權跟注入權的問題其實就是AI發展的一個重要的基礎也是一個重要的關鍵因素但是我們訓練資料來源的合法性其實是在目前"},{"start":439.246,"end":445.694,"text":"比較模糊那也面臨潛在的這種侵權的這種風險那政府資料其實也不足我們民間的這些使用也沒有明確的這個機制這個有沒有相對應的一個政策是的"},{"start":454.224,"end":472.297,"text":"好的 謝謝委員 委員點到了一個問題非常重要的重點那我們現在兩個部分來進行那政府資料部署的部分以過去這個國科會開發經驗要一個政府一個政府部門來進行洽商這是非常沒有效率的所以我們會跟委員報告過我們會建立這個台灣的AI的這個我們會不會修訂相關的著作權法增加AI訓練的合理跟他的使用條款"},{"start":479.342,"end":503.372,"text":"我們跟經濟部智慧局達成一個共識就是說我們用標準授權或是統一授權條款的方式來減低個別商議的這個成本那我們其實已經研擬了所謂台灣AI主權訓練語調的授權條款的第一版那我們會徵詢學者以及法律專家的意見如果確定的話各部會都採取這個條款那其實就減少了很多個別洽商的成本"},{"start":503.812,"end":521.565,"text":"那我們也必須要比照日本新加坡這種建立資料使用的例外的這種機制會不會來做這樣的一個處理這個部分因為國際著作權的法令還是不太的明確而且可能會有一些副作用那我們還在密切觀察因為包括美國在內"},{"start":522.805,"end":536.033,"text":"他們的這個著作權這個局所提出的報告似乎政府部門也不太滿意那法院有非常多重要案例正在進行那據我所知我們的智慧局是密切觀察整個國際的立法趨勢因為整個智慧權著作權的體制是建立在TRIPS國際公約的架構之下所以恐怕沒辦法台灣單獨來動這樣子"},{"start":542.156,"end":554.757,"text":"市長因為時間的關係我們在落實資料的溯源還有回饋以及授權制度提升資料的開放跟可信度這個部分還是要持續的努力是是是完全贊同委員謝謝李昆哲委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":206,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（10時1分）謝謝召委，我還是請一下數位部葉寧次長。"],["主席：有請葉寧次長備詢，謝謝。"],["李委員昆澤：我還是請數位部的葉寧次長，因為我認為國科會已經是接近智庫這樣的性質，它提供相關的研究，都是以發包來作為處理的方式，其實量能是不足的，對於以後要處理AI基本法，不管是相關法令或是相關執行方面，國科會是承擔不起這個重擔的。","請教次長，針對AI主權，這是國際科技發展的一個重點、重要的戰略位置，因為它關係到經濟發展以及相關的資安，更是世界各國投入很多資源要作為數位主權跟國家安全的一個重要基礎，但是臺灣在目前相關的AI主權方面，還是有很多的問題：第一個，儘管我們的晶片領先全球，但是我們的AI關鍵技術卻高度依賴國外，我非常擔心在未來AI主權的發展上，我們只是硬體的供應者，而不是關鍵技術的擁有者。我們也缺乏本土的大型語言模型、演算法跟資料自主權，難以掌握我們自己AI產業的主導權，這是一個問題。請教次長，你們有什麼相關因應的方法嗎？"],["葉次長寧：第一件事情跟委員報告，AI晶片當然是非常重要，AI關鍵技術的確如委員所說的不只如此，但是臺灣作為國際產業鏈的一部分，我們會發展跟本土有關AI的新創技術，所以在國發會支援之下，我們已經匡列國發基金來投資AI的新創事業。有關語言模型的部分，國科會過去的TAIDE也是在國際的開源模型上面做發展，但是中間非常重要的一部分，委員也了解，就是資料的自主，特別是臺灣的資料如何能夠進入這個大語言的模型，所以本部現在正在積極推動，準備建立臺灣AI主權的語料庫，並先從政府開始做起。"],["李委員昆澤：關於AI核心技術，我們欠缺的就是相關的這種大型的語言模型，還有相關的演算法，我們都是明顯落後國際的科技巨頭，針對這部分，你們有什麼處理方式嗎？"],["葉次長寧：就如同我剛才跟委員報告的，其實所謂的國際科技公司，他們過去已經投入了大量的資本跟訓練成本，我們其實應該在他已經既有的基礎上面去做，而不是另闢蹊徑……"],["李委員昆澤：次長，我請教，我們政府會投入穩定的資金以及相關計算的資源來支持我們本土型的語言模型嗎？"],["葉次長寧：是的，資金的部分，我剛才已經跟委員報告過，國發會已經匡列了國發基金100億，會進行長期的投資；算力的部分，除了國科會有高速電腦中心支援科研之外，本部也會提供算力來支援特別是中小企業的算力……"],["李委員昆澤：次長，我們還是要加速我們的產學合作平臺，對於相關成果的商品化，還有技術落地，這個部分還是要加強。"],["葉次長寧：是，我完全贊成，提供算力、提供資金，甚至提供行銷、提供資料，這是本部在AI發展上會持續推動的。"],["李委員昆澤：好。次長，另外，留不住人才這個危機也是嚴重的警訊，我們的AI高階人才嚴重流失，產業發展又非常快速，但是教育訓練跟相關的薪資結構仍然是落後的，而且我們也缺乏對AI人才的長期職涯吸引力，你說明一下我們有什麼解決方式？"],["葉次長寧：人才的部分，其實臺灣對AI人才是非常渴求的，我們有整體的規劃，AI人才有包括高階人才，譬如研發人才，這個主要會由國科會跟教育部從學研或科研方面去著手。重要的是產業的部分，本部的數位產業署會提供非常多產業方面的人才訓練課程，甚至於國際的公司，譬如說Microsoft會舉辦工作坊的方式來進行。公務的部分，我們也在跟人事總處進行合作，希望每個公務員都具有人工智慧的素養。"],["李委員昆澤：次長，我們還是要推動有競爭力的人才薪資制度，這是留住人才一個最重要的基礎。我們要鼓勵國際跟本土AI企業來設研發中心，並重新設計AI相關課程跟職訓計畫，回應實務的需求。請補充說明一下。"],["葉次長寧：委員講得都非常正確，當然如何提供比較好的薪資制度，這大概是整個產業的問題，特別跟國際方面的合作，大概也是我們數位產業署一直持續努力的目標。就如同我剛才跟委員報告的，我們跟所謂的國際大廠會媒合本土的，不管是學生也好，或者是產業人才也好，希望能夠共同合作，重新設計AI相關的課程跟職訓計畫，我相信不管是國科會、教育部或勞動部，大概一直都在這部分努力，我們也會特別在公務人才的部分跟人事總處來合作，希望公務員的部分也有相對應的AI素養跟AI能力。"],["李委員昆澤：好。現在AI產業發展非常的迅速，但是我們政策的推動跟政府部門這種跨部門協力合作的效率是不高的，這樣會導致資源分散以及政策推動緩慢，所以立法院在制定相關法令的時候，必須跟行政部門、跟產業界大家更密切的對話，藉由這種跨部門的合作來讓政策推動效率更高。所以我們現在必須成立專責的統籌單位，全面的來整合並管理AI發展的政策、資金以及相關資源的分配。我們現在有召開跨部門的協調會議嗎？"],["葉次長寧：有的，112年行政院就成立了數位政策法制協調專案會議，由經濟的政委、科技的政委跟法制的政委來共同協調各部會。剛才國科會的報告也提到，不管是AI也好，資料發展也好，或者是個資保護也好，都有進行定期的跨部門會議，譬如說定期召開，其實我們昨天也在吳主委的主持下才召開過會議，所以這個會議會持續的進行。"],["李委員昆澤：現在我們討論到資料的問題，我們看到資料的授權跟著作權的問題其實就是AI發展的重要基礎，也是一個重要的關鍵因素，但是我們訓練資料來源的合法性在目前是比較模糊的，也面臨潛在的侵權風險，而且政府資料其實也不足，民間的使用也沒有明確的機制，這個有沒有相對應的政策？"],["葉次長寧：有的，謝謝委員，委員點到的問題是非常重要的重點，我們現在分兩個部分來進行，政府資料不足的部分，以過去國科會開發的經驗，要一個政府部門、一個政府部門來進行洽商，這是非常沒有效率的，剛才跟委員報告過，我們會建立臺灣AI的……"],["李委員昆澤：我們會不會修訂相關的著作權法，增加AI訓練的合理跟使用條款？"],["葉次長寧：是，我們跟經濟部智慧局有達成一個共識，我們會用標準授權或是統一授權條款的方式來減低個別商議的成本，我們其實已經研擬了臺灣AI主權訓練語料的授權條款第一版，我們會徵詢學者以及法律專家的意見，如果確定的話，各部會都採取這個條款，其實就會減少很多個別洽商的成本。"],["李委員昆澤：我們也必須要比照日本、新加坡這種建立資料使用的例外機制，會不會來做這樣的處理？"],["葉次長寧：關於這個部分，因為國際著作權的法令還是不太明確，而且可能會有一些副作用，我們還在密切觀察，因為包括美國在內，他們的著作權局所提出的報告似乎政府部門也不太滿意，法院有非常多重要案例正在進行，據我所知，我們的智慧局是密切觀察整個國際的立法趨勢，因為整個著作權的體制是建立在TRIPS國際公約的架構之下，所以臺灣恐怕沒辦法單獨來動。"],["李委員昆澤：我們在落實資料的溯源、回饋以及授權制度，還有提升資料開放跟可信度，這些部分還是要持續的努力。"],["葉次長寧：是，完全贊同委員，謝謝委員指教。"],["李委員昆澤：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤委員質詢。請官員回座。"],["主席（李委員昆澤代）：現在請葛如鈞召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,23-1","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳宗憲","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","柯志恩","李昆澤","林俊憲","陳素月","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","葉元之","蔡其昌","劉書彬","萬美玲","張雅琳","郭昱晴","何欣純","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","游顥","徐富癸","吳沛憶","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","范雲","林沛祥","邱若華","廖先翔","許宇甄","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；二、審查委員邱若華等 17 人擬具\n「人工智慧基本法草案」案；三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；四、\n審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工\n智慧基本法草案」案；六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；七、審查委\n員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案 （僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1144802_00004"}}},{"id":"161318","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161318","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b53a984c8a4fa2347d304acf7f12681bd5433fb1cebf983d8747f46cb97eb1dba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:00:52 - 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說第一個我們要接近他的戰術是不是因為中方"},{"start":48.118,"end":64.938,"text":"有跟這個巴基斯坦有在戰術上面事前演練事後印證那是有效的或者是說是他的哪一個武器系統能夠有效的去應對這來自西方國家也就是我們非常重要的這些裝備"},{"start":66.559,"end":90.455,"text":"這些是我們不需要知道的目前就國防部的掌握到底有沒有印度的戰機被擊落包含我剛剛提到的標峰戰機是不是有被擊落就目前得到的情報我想我們對於印巴的衝突相關的這些"},{"start":93.635,"end":102.99,"text":"有涉及到的空戰的經驗影響到我們未來台海軍事態勢,我們都持續來關注"},{"start":108.147,"end":135.954,"text":"OK來關注那等於說剛才的問題沒有辦法去證實或者是說從公開資訊大概你覺得路透社講的會比較接近事實還是由巴基斯坦方講的會比較接近事實我之所以講這件事情的原因是因為巴基斯坦是透過這一次的空戰不斷地進行全面性的宣傳這是Propaganda的一部分但是同時我們要區分什麼是Propaganda跟什麼是事實如果我不知道說五價就五價"},{"start":137.674,"end":166.036,"text":"那不然就是說就相信印度方的或是全面都沒有沒事我們還是能夠有效的應對這都不對我們不需要那我知道最近這幾天有很多節目用幾乎是在歌頌中共的這一些軍備的方式來去貶低對自己的信心這是不對的所以說我們同時也要關注他們的宣傳戰那同時你要知道說如果他們是用有效的方式極弱中制的這些武器系統"},{"start":167.196,"end":181.953,"text":"那我們就要從中學習啊他們現在講的每一個宣傳同時也可能把他們的戰術給揭露啊這部分部長可不可以簡單的回應一下到底有沒有類似這樣的情況我們現在目前掌握到的是什麼有沒有跟法國方面來掌握有沒有跟印度方面來掌握"},{"start":182.614,"end":207.012,"text":"有沒有做這些動作我想跟委員報告我想我們對於中共所有的這個新式武器的裝備我們都持續掌握而且我們從台海的這些情勢他們相關的這些進行操演或者進行訓練我們都從這個地方會得到我們對敵可能行動在台海這個部分我們要如何應處這個我們都是來做"},{"start":207.532,"end":223.265,"text":"那空戰的這個部分呢我想也是如此也就是說他要如何透過不同的一個相關的指管作為然後來進行有效的一些打擊這些部分也是在我們的持續的密駐當中那我們也會相關的有一些戰術的因應作為那因為詳細的狀況我覺得我們"},{"start":228.223,"end":245.826,"text":"不適合在這個地方做我們其實是我只是說他們都有跟我做一些從文的報告但是我不認為我適合在這個地方做一個公開的一個說明好 沒關係我只是要讓國防部有確切知道說到底發生了什麼事情因為我知道這個訊息都是"},{"start":246.747,"end":272.098,"text":"有時候是彼此矛盾的在法國的法方跟我們講的我們在法國法國那邊辦事處的跟我們在國安局的那我們收集的資料可能沒有百分之百全部一致吻合所以必須要核實那到時候才知道說哪一方得到的情報是最真實的我只能夠說我們跟相關的這些國家都會有這些有關的請示的一個交換但是"},{"start":272.538,"end":292.569,"text":"我想確切的情況可能不適宜在這裡做過的說明我沒有要跟我講確確的情況我只是把這個方針講出來我希望說注意宣傳站這是第一個那就是同時注意宣傳站的部分的原因就是說不可以說就是讓他們一直講但是我們沒有用事實來去做區分什麼是事實什麼是宣傳"},{"start":293.57,"end":311.201,"text":"那什麼是對我們自己國家的自信這三個是不同的東西那我還是希望說有自信的面對中國的武器系統的提升不把它當成是垃圾我知道現在很多人就是把他們這個西方那個中國是紙奧夫或者是中國人會說西方是紙奧夫都不是"},{"start":312.262,"end":321.027,"text":"他們的實力是怎麼樣我們必須要知道最後謝謝趙偉再給我一分鐘非常感謝關於DIO我們講了蠻久了國防創新小組已經有一個重要的宗旨是在講說徵求民間科技解決方案"},{"start":335.914,"end":354.451,"text":"Hacking for Defense這個部分創新模式就是用國防產業創業創新模式的這個部分有沒有想過說是不是有沒有經費配置趕快就Hacking for Defense Taiwan規範一個試辦的經費為什麼要這樣講我們需要現在包含無人機的這些需求那是我們希望說平時可以創業暫時可以擴張"},{"start":357.173,"end":381.328,"text":"就是衝突的時候可以擴張那我們就不能夠只來自幾個商員三個 四個重要的公司我們要包含小型公司包含BBC有報導就是台灣的這些小型的這些無人機的公司大概是有20到100個他們其實基本上沒有機會來進入我們的國防體系所以在這邊是不是可以呼籲部長能夠盡快的把這個東西來導入至少跟我們一個國立大學"},{"start":382.692,"end":403.528,"text":"跟委員包括我們是有的,有這個有的,而且他們相關這些學校也確實有很具體的因為我們等一下已經開辦了,所以我們可能今年就可以開始像有一些他們利用AI的一些對,以任務為導向,所以部長我們今年大概就可以開始了"},{"start":404.249,"end":429.643,"text":"那很棒還有無人界競賽等等這個確實是有的今年吧今年就可以開始或者是明年就是反正近期就可以開始我們事實上已經有獲得一個具體的成果了只是說我想不是啊DIO不是我們才剛創立我是說由DIO主導的由DIO主導的當然我們我們本來就是一直有在進行這些相關的搜尋然後也現在已經做了公開徵集那未來也會就委員的這個"},{"start":433.146,"end":443.881,"text":"狀況我們會來進行了解那相關的其他那個聯合參謀本部的各項也都會來進行對他們的這個需求有沒有符合來進行了解好 謝謝 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for Defense這個部分，就是用國防產業創新模式的部分，有沒有想過是不是有經費可以配置？是不是趕快就Hacking for Defense 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包委員其實我們的綠領裡面就有一項是跟勞動部合作的那當然我必須說這份報告呢就僅供參考用這個就我們現在的這個政策的落實性可以當成我們治理性可行性不高啦這份報告但是我們很密切注意這個事情所以未來呢如果有碳費甚至我也跟洪部長"},{"start":269.781,"end":297.579,"text":"這個討論說我們是不是加大那個力道讓勞工朋友多一點增能的一個空間這個就是我們綠領在做的事情對因為他照這樣子來評估其實我們也擔心說萬一淨零轉型去做之後造成這些產業的衝擊那我們現在比較擔心就是說這些產業他其實到時候如果這些人才他要轉型的時候勢必他們的部分他們是屬於"},{"start":298.76,"end":326.73,"text":"因為已經就業可能10年以上那年齡一定都是比較高屬於中高年再加上這些產業其實整體它的教育程度來講都是比較低那我後來也看一些我們針對我們補助的重點像我們環境部跟工研院有在推動綠領人才培訓跟補助這些辦法好像重點都是放在30歲以下跟大專學歷以上"},{"start":327.65,"end":350.018,"text":"為主要對象那當然你們這個推動最主要目的是希望能夠把一些新血新血輪來加入這些行列那可是我們覺得說你加入新血輪當然勢必重要可是現有勞動力的這些轉型是不是我們應該也要有一些相關的措施去輔導他們"},{"start":351.759,"end":375.649,"text":"委員提議是非常好目前就是我們會透過勞動部那個平台來討論這個事情因為說真的勞動部他的資源比環境部來對於勞工的輔導他們更了解怎麼幫助勞工那我們這邊就是屬於綠領的人才的培訓所以這個部分我們的確是已經約了時間近期就會來見面來談這個媒合的事情如何來合作"},{"start":376.329,"end":392.269,"text":"對啊 所以那時候部長也有提到你像因為我們現在推動淨零轉型那勢必環境部勞動部跟經濟部這個跨部會的合作真的是很重要那你當然說那一部分那個專家學者勞動部他所做的報告"},{"start":393.11,"end":410.517,"text":"當然可能是站在他立場去做一些評估但是我們也是擔心說勢必對這些產業多少一定會有受到相當的衝擊可能未必是他評估的這麼的嚴重但是這一部分也值得我們注意就是我們在培訓的部分不能把重點"},{"start":411.397,"end":439.756,"text":"都放在新血輪的加入而且這些年輕而且學歷高其實整體上他們在產業的就業率來講其實他的條件一定是比較好那我們現在就是擔心這些中高齡他轉型而且本身他的學歷並不是像這些新血輪你們現在補助的學歷這麼高那反而到時候他們要轉型就業成為綠領人才反而如果我們沒有"},{"start":440.256,"end":456.338,"text":"去補助他們去培訓他們勢必對他們來講到時候轉型一定是有很大的問題那加上我們環境部有收這個碳費所以我們才想說是不是部長在針對碳費這部分來補助我們這些人才的轉型"},{"start":457.259,"end":485.752,"text":"好謝謝委員的蠻好建議因為我們碳費明年才會收到啦然後那如果說未來從這個公正轉型的角度的確委員提到的一個特別是高齡或是學歷比較低或是年資很長的這個族群的確是我們可以來列入考慮在裡面等於是我們今年可以說是先開始先對年輕朋友那未來呢包含委員提的原住民新住民等等這個我們的確可以來納入考慮那我們也會跨部會例如說像"},{"start":486.192,"end":511.484,"text":"原住民其實就必須跟原住民委員會來談如何來媒合因為這部分我們今天會提出當然我們就希望未雨綢繆啦你不要等到一堆人拿失業的時候我們再來尋求這個解套方式那就太慢了所以剛剛部長也有看到所以我們希望目前我們環境部跟工研院推動的部分是屬於比較年輕高學歷的我們希望能夠針對這部分我們來研議擴大補助的對象"},{"start":515.186,"end":544.328,"text":"就像我们原住民薰住民还有二度就业的妇女还有中高龄这些有可能面临失业转型的这一部分我们现在严领来补助希望能够针对绿领人才的培训我们环境部也来出来协助我们劳动部甚至其他各部会来让这个补助计划能够顺利的来推动好没问题委员的建议我们会考虑谢谢好谢谢部长谢谢好谢谢图全级委员"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":597,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（9時57分）好，謝謝主席，請彭部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，目前我國積極在推動淨零轉型，這是我們的重要工作，而勢必高碳排、高耗能的產業一定是首當其衝，我看你去年也指出，像電子零組件、金屬製品、批發零售業等行業，短期勢必會因為推動淨零轉型而受到衝擊，那時候你指出，預估2025年失業人口大概會超過1萬，到2050年失業人口可能會超過4萬，部長也表示環境部會跟勞動部、經濟部一起成立跨部會淨零職場的轉型平臺，請問這個平臺現在建立了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，你提到的那個報告，是勞動部當年委託學者做的報告，這裡面有很多假設，我也跟洪申翰部長討論過那個報告，基本上，我知道那個報告沒有繼續做下去，因為我們都是在這個領域的人，我們看到綠領的工作機會在增加，到現在也沒有看到有任何一家企業因為淨零而開始裁員，所以就目前來看，那份報告是學者的一些推估，我們認為可以拿來做政策使用的可信度並不高，這點也跟委員報告。另外，其實勞動部洪申翰部長很重視這個問題，包含5月1號有一些勞工朋友代表提出了七個建言，其中有一項就是淨零，目前的確我們跟勞動部有一個合作平臺，準備要來討論這些問題，包括勞工未來要進行公正轉型或淨零的時候，他們需要如何參與等等，我們準備要來談這個事情。"],["涂委員權吉：所以部長的意思是說有關淨零轉型，不會衝擊到這些產業嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：那個可以再算，但是我必須說，之前去年那份委託的研究報告，我自己從我個人的角度，畢竟那個是勞動部委託的計畫，但是從我自己的領域專業來看的話，那份報告參考價值度不高啦！"],["涂委員權吉：對，我請問部長，有關淨零轉型推動，你們應該也有評估，會不會像我們剛剛講的，你說這只是他們的預估，有沒有可能事實上真的會衝擊到這些產業呢？"],["彭部長啓明：我們觀察，現在的確有一些產業是非常傳統的，甚至它本身已經沒有國際競爭力，的確在這波壓力之下可能會被迫有一些調整，我們一直密切在注意，但是目前這樣的案例不多，我們現在的確會想要跟勞動部一起來合作探討並超前部署，假設有些企業真的屬實遇到這樣的狀況，那我們該怎麼辦？的確我們也在討論這個事情。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊，部長，你剛剛講的沒有錯，其實真的要超前部署，不能等到確實已經一堆人失業了，再來規劃要去做，既然專家學者有這部分的評估及這部分的隱憂，勢必你在推動淨零轉型時，確實有些產業絕對會受到衝擊，所以勞動部有做這個報告，我們現在也是針對這個報告，希望環境部也能夠在這之前超前部署，針對這些有可能失業並造成衝擊的產業，像我們有收碳費，是不是也應該提供補助，來做一些人才培訓這方面的訓練課程？"],["彭部長啓明：對，報告委員，其實我們的綠領裡就有一項是跟勞動部合作，當然，委員，我必須說這份報告僅供參考用，就我們現在政策的落實性及治理性，可以說可行性不高，但是我們很密切注意這個事情，所以未來如果有碳費，甚至我也跟洪部長討論說是不是要加大力道讓勞工朋友多一點增能的空間？這個就是我們綠領在做的事情。"],["涂委員權吉：對，因為照這樣子評估，其實我們也擔心萬一做了淨零轉型之後造成這些產業的衝擊，我們現在比較擔心這些產業到時候遇到人才要轉型，對於這些可能已經就業10年以上，年齡一定都是比較高、屬於中高齡的人來說，再加上這些產業整體的教育程度都比較低。我後來也看到一些補助的重點，像環境部跟工研院有在推動綠領人才培訓跟補助辦法，重點好像都是放在30歲以下跟大專學歷以上為主要對象，當然，你們推動最主要的目的是希望能夠有新血輪來加入這些行列。我們覺得加入新血輪當然重要，可是針對現有勞動力的轉型，我們是不是也應該要有一些相關措施去輔導他們？"],["彭部長啓明：好，委員的提議非常好，目前我們會跟勞動部透過那個平臺來討論這件事情，因為說真的，勞動部的資源對比環境部，對於勞工的輔導，他們更了解怎麼幫助勞工，我們就是屬於綠領人才的培訓，所以這個部分我們的確已經約了時間，近期就會見面來談媒合的事情及如何合作。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊，那時候部長也有提到，因為我們現在推動淨零轉型，環境部、勞動部和經濟部跨部會合作真的是很重要，當然你說勞動部專家學者所做的報告可能是站在他的立場去做一些評估，但是我們也是擔心勢必對這些產業多少一定會受到相當的衝擊，可能未必像他所評估的這麼嚴重，但是有一部分也值得我們注意，就是我們在培訓的部分不能把重點都放在新血輪的加入，而且這些人年輕、學歷高，其實整體上他們在產業的就業率來講，條件一定比較好。我們現在就是擔心這些中高齡轉型，他本身並不是像這些新血輪，就是你們現在所補助的對象學歷這麼高，到時候他們要轉型就業成為綠領人才，如果沒有去補助、培訓他們，對他們來講，到時候轉型勢必一定有很大的問題。加上環境部有收碳費，所以我們才想說是不是請部長針對碳費這一部分來補助這些人才轉型？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員滿好的建議，因為我們明年才會收到碳費，未來從公正轉型的角度，委員提到特別是高齡、學歷比較低或是年資很長的族群，的確我們可以在裡面來列入考慮，等於是今年可以先開始針對年輕朋友，未來包含委員提到的原住民、新住民等等，的確可以來納入考慮，我們也會跨部會，例如像原住民，就必須跟原住民委員會來談如何媒合。"],["涂委員權吉：對，因為這部分我們今天會提出來當然就是希望未雨綢繆，你不要等到一堆人失業的時候再來尋求解套方式，那就太慢了。剛剛部長也有看到，目前環境部和工研院推動的部分是屬於比較年輕、高學歷的，我們希望能夠針對這部分來研議擴大補助的對象，像原住民、新住民，還有二度就業的婦女，以及中高齡可能面臨失業轉型的這部分，我們現在來研擬補助，希望能夠針對綠領人才的培訓，環境部也來協助勞動部、甚至其他各部會，讓這個補助計畫能夠順利來推動。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題。委員的建議，我們會考慮，謝謝。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝涂權吉委員發言。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林淑芬","王正旭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","陳培瑜","楊曜","盧縣一","蔡易餘","廖偉翔"],"page_start":369,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、勞動部及教育部就「我國推動綠色轉型政策，相關人才培育發展\n與產業政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟\n部、農業部及教育部就「全氟及多氟烷基物質(PFAS)管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化\n物相關管理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢【專題報告綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1145001_00015"}}},{"id":"161316","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161316","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971bd185342b0d221b3eebe85dec65e1b6405433fb1cebf983d8af981fddda04ef9c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:50:26 - 10:00:53","影片長度":"00:10:27","會議時間":"2025-05-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員邱若華等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案。\n 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那你既然在這個地方我還有一到三天的時間那我還有一個最重要的部分裡面所有通報業者的條件有高達96.8%是來自Meta"},{"start":198.932,"end":207.637,"text":"但是你要知道我們一般老人會使用Instagram會使用這個Facebook其實不太用他們用LINE但是你的LINE的部分裡面只有0.99不到1%所以你們這個平台你們根本沒有辦法抓到我們群眾最常用的這個LINE那你怎麼來做這樣的一個處理"},{"start":215.482,"end":229.994,"text":"LINE的部分來講的話其實我們現在跟警政署一起合作包括他的帳號如果有一些部分有問題我只告訴你現在只有1%不到這才是老人最容易詐騙的所以一個速發布花的7000多萬元我們期待你如果連這個LINE的資訊都沒有辦法抓到的話那你所做的部分其實沒有辦法發揮逃逸的效果這是我要不斷強調的好不好"},{"start":234.617,"end":252.971,"text":"而且为什么会是这样子所以联合国在四月的时候就不断的公告我们台湾在infraction这个point里面报告我们有跨过的诈骗跟地下博弈都是来自台湾包括他们的技术包括他们很多的技术的支援那目前来说的话你们有没有掌握这个讯息"},{"start":253.812,"end":281.614,"text":"有没有掌握这个讯息而且里面呢这些集团导入生成AI还有身为的技术等等你们又掌握到这些部分吗连调查局都承认近日才知道所以很显然我们台湾对于这样的讯息连联合国的公报里面都已经特别提出来我们到现在为止都还比别人慢一拍这个说实在的真是有为我们这么多高深的人才啊这次我还是要提到的好不好来接下来因为时间的关系除了这个次长之外我们是不是也请我们的吴承文我们的主委"},{"start":284.12,"end":308.398,"text":"主委我们很快来说刚刚洪孟凯我已经稍微特别提到了我们从这个国科会因为草案是你们提的那现在转给术发部那当然有讲了非常多的理由我就帮帮你这件事你会回应的吧因为基于国安基于人权一大堆你不觉得在开始要成立这个AI这么要重视的时候都没考虑到这些问题吗临时换手你觉得这样合理吗主委"},{"start":310.718,"end":335.738,"text":"我想在前主委吳政東主委的時候在行政院討論也是因為當時這個訴發部剛成立所以他就所以是訴發部目前為止成效在詐騙的部分裡面成效不彰然後你是主導這個草案目前臨時換手你難道沒有覺得有任何覺得不妥嗎你們剛剛所講的理由本來就是應該要來制定這個法案之前就應該想到該哪個部門就哪個部門而不是臨時來做這個換手的動作"},{"start":339.781,"end":343.838,"text":"今天成立數位發展部其實是要主責資料治理"},{"start":345.055,"end":349.596,"text":"未來AI那有嗎 有沒有辦法達到這個目標我先告訴你喔目前來說他們還是放在數位產業署喔還是他們下去那個單位喔而且書發部沒有AI科研的能力喔他們連這個單位都沒有我們看看各國戰略的高度當你把AI當作是你的立國的一個基本的法的時候你看歐盟有辦公室美國有總統人工智能諮詢委員會韓國也是隸屬於總統當任委員長這是一個國家的高度來看人家的AI"},{"start":373.982,"end":389.537,"text":"然後我們國家那麼喜歡成立辦公室什麼辦公室都亂成立一通連這個最重要的辦公室竟然沒有任何的反應你不覺得這很奇怪嗎?蘇花部其實也有科研他們在AI的應用未來發展AI平台的產業AI的創新應用服務這個蘇花部也會投入那國科會其實我們的這個"},{"start":396.314,"end":401.496,"text":"其實我說實在除了學界科研之外我們也負責整個行政各部會你們都認為說你們可以統合我說一句實在話當初國科還沒有被降級之前的科技部才是有辦法來主導這個部分很可惜我們整個的政府的組織體系我必須要說還是有點失望的但是呢去年國科會報告之後呢你馬上被批評說草案多聚焦在政府"},{"start":419.665,"end":447.787,"text":"推动AI扮演的角色对于政府发展跟应用AI的程序不清楚书发部的部长也提出这样的一个问题书发部长都提出这个问题他还告诉我们说希望能够兼顾欧盟以管理为主美日以产业为主就我们的书发部长来说他也不太满意国客会的草案他不满意你们国客会所推荐的草案他认为应该兼顾管理跟产业但是我必须要说这是我们台湾的问题什么都要兼顾什么都做不到"},{"start":448.507,"end":452.19,"text":"你到底是要以管理還是要以產業連每日都要二選一的部分來比重問題我們永遠只告訴大家我們要兼顧兼顧 不是嗎報告委員 黃部長對我們的查案是很滿意的不會啊 他也做出很多的批評啊"},{"start":463.76,"end":474.13,"text":"那接下來因為蘇阿部還要制定這個作用法所以蘇阿部會在這個監管風險分類以及保障人群我告訴你這是我們很大的一個問題啊美日還有包括歐盟他們都已經執行過你可以看到歐盟到2027年才上路韓國呢是2025公佈但是2026年才生效因為他們都在於要管鬆管緊"},{"start":488.624,"end":516.277,"text":"你管太松就会有刚刚所发生的一些个资等等这些问题你管太紧是对于产业发展是有影响的那我们台湾到目前为止我没有看到我只看到部长提到一个兼顾我只要看到兼顾我就头就冒了血因为兼顾就是一个最泛泛的一种说法没有办法让我们看出你的部分而且我还要问你从政策形成都要经过法治的程序而且你一定要有这个法规政策影响的评估才可以呈报行政院"},{"start":516.917,"end":520.999,"text":"到目前為止你從這個國科會到我們這個訴發部這個過程當中會不會省略掉了這個我比較擔心的不管你的罰則你的兼顧等等之類的會把這個影響的評估把它做得更簡化會不會有這個問題次長沒有這個問題我們所有的程序完全按照規定都走過了所有的溝通所以我們大概什麼時候都會看到民間的溝通政府部會的溝通全部都做過訴發部跟我們一起討論才會送到行政院行政院經過審查"},{"start":545.549,"end":569.487,"text":"各部會還有法治等等所有的審查我們都走過了那接下來行政院應該很快就會我們趕快看到但是我還剩下最後的30秒時間我還是要提醒速發部所謂的台灣主權AI的訓練的這個語言庫目前建制到底是如何目前來說很顯然我們再往下看很快時間看到你看它這個來源來說的話說實在的"},{"start":572.369,"end":592.458,"text":"通常都是以政府的部门比较容易拿到但是你要知道我们所有最大的database都是来自于民间那很显然我们这个法令的建制上面这部分是还是有一些的落差所以要什么时候来能够建高这个资料库我觉得这个还是我们会不断的紧追还有最后我还要提到所谓的技术中立的问题"},{"start":592.978,"end":617.448,"text":"这个记录中立的问题里面到底你所输入的部分因为谁有这样的一个database谁就有话语权我们会很担心在这个话语权的过程当中你输入的资料到底有没有办法维持这个所谓的一个技术上的中立这个我还是要不断地强调地提出所以在这个建构这个资料库的过程当中麻烦两个单位势必一定要好好来做一个审慎上面的处理好不好"},{"start":618.428,"end":623.282,"text":"那我们就顺目来看看我们这篇精神法里面到时候我们看到之后我们再来做更细部的讨论谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":168,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時50分）謝謝召委，是不是首先請數發部的葉次長？"],["主席：請葉次長備詢。謝謝。"],["葉次長寧：委員早安。"],["柯委員志恩：次長早。在進入AI基本法之前，我還是要針對你們花了7,106萬3,000元所開發的「網路詐騙通報查詢網」這個app來就教於你。為什麼要特別先講這個？因為大家對數發部有極大的期待，但是從警政署的資料來看，光是今年4月，詐騙的案件就有將近1萬6,000件，最主要是受騙金額高達76億，比3月份的70億還多了6億，前5名除了金融詐騙，交友詐騙所占的比例也很高，顯然大家既想有錢，又非常寂寞，這真的是我們的一個常態。對於你們開發的這樣一個app，次長覺得成效如何？"],["葉次長寧：雖然這不是我負責的業務，但我……"],["柯委員志恩：但這是你們數發部的業務，你們必須要知道！"],["葉次長寧：對、對、對，我們會繼續努力。"],["柯委員志恩：沒有！我先給你看一下你們數發部的努力！這個app現在已經進入第二次公共測試，之前7個月的時間大概有1萬6,000個人下載，但實際有通報紀錄的大概只有2,000人，民眾對數發部的反映就是，大家認為都已經到了AI的時代了，你們還要自己識別、自己通報，然後還要花六、七千萬！所以目前為止的成效正如我剛剛說的，每個月警政署有2萬件的詐騙案，你們數發部花了七千多萬，7個月只有2,000人進行通報，這個數字的差距是非常大的！這個數據再加上民眾的反映，重點是你們如何界定什麼叫做詐騙案件？你們的標準是什麼？有些時候你們還判定說是什麼高風險、無法判斷，如果被界定為高風險的話，基本上都不太處理的！所以你們做這樣的app到底成效如何？就算你們一發現、被認定是詐騙案件（這是最高等級）好了，你覺得通告網路平臺叫業者下架需要多久時間？多久時間是很重要的！"],["葉次長寧：我可不可以請負責的林組長來說明？"],["柯委員志恩：好，要很快，因為我要進入AI基本法。"],["林組長青嶔：謝謝委員的提醒，以整個開發來講，我們從公測到現在大概通報了19萬件的詐騙廣告，經判斷之後大概是10萬件下架，這是第一點要報告的。再來就是我們所有案件的判斷其實是結合各部會，包括內政部……"],["柯委員志恩：所以需要多久時間？從民眾通報到你們真的讓它下架，平均需要多久的時間？"],["林組長青嶔：平均大概1到3天。因為中間的過程是要讓這個部會去……"],["柯委員志恩：好，你現在在這個地方說是需要1到3天的時間，還有一個最重要的部分，就是所有通報平臺下架的案件有高達96.8%是來自Meta，但是你要知道，一般老人會使用Instagram或Facebook嗎？其實不太用，他們主要是用LINE，但是你們通報LINE下架的案件只占0.99%，不到1%！所以你們這個平臺根本沒有辦法抓到群眾最常用的LINE的部分，這要怎麼處理？"],["林組長青嶔：有關LINE的部分，其實我們現在跟警政署合作，包括它的帳號如果有些部分有問題……"],["柯委員志恩：我只是告訴你，現在只有1%不到，而這才是老人最容易被詐騙的！所以數發部花了七千多萬元，我們也很期待，但是如果連LINE的資訊都沒有辦法抓到的話，那麼這個app其實沒有辦法發揮應有的效果。這是我要不斷強調的，好不好？"],["林組長青嶔：好。"],["柯委員志恩：而且為什麼會是這樣子？聯合國4月份在「Inflection 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blah一大堆，你不覺得在開始這麼重視AI的時候都沒有考慮到這些問題嗎？臨時換手，你覺得這樣合理嗎？主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：吳政忠前主委在行政院討論的時候，也是因為當時數發部剛成立，所以他就承擔了……"],["柯委員志恩：數發部目前為止在詐騙的部分成效不彰，而你們是主導這個草案，現在臨時換手，你難道不覺得有任何不妥嗎？你們剛剛講的理由本來就是在制定這個法之前應該要想到的，該哪個部門就哪個部門，而不是臨時來做這個換手的動作！"],["吳主任委員誠文：行政院成立數位發展部其實是要主責資料治理，未來AI……"],["柯委員志恩：那有嗎？有沒有辦法達到這個目標？我先告訴你，目前來說他們還是放在數位產業署，還是他們底下的一個單位，而且數發部沒有AI科研的能力，他們這個單位都沒有！你看看各國的戰略高度，當一個國家把AI視為立國的基本，歐盟有AI辦公室，美國有總統人工智能諮詢委員會，韓國有總統擔任委員長的國家AI委員會，都是以國家的高度來看待AI，而我們國家那麼喜歡成立辦公室，什麼辦公室都亂成立一通，對這個最重要的辦公室竟然沒有任何反應，你不覺得這很奇怪嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：數發部其實也有科研，他們也會投入AI的應用、未來發展AI平臺的產業、AI的創新應用服務，我們國科會除了學界科研之外，也負責整個行政院各部會……"],["柯委員志恩：你們都認為自己可以統合，我說一句實在話，當初國科會還沒有被降級，也就是之前的科技部才有辦法主導這個部分，很可惜，對於我們整個政府組織體系，我必須要說，我還是有點失望的。而且去年國科會報告之後，馬上被批評說，草案多聚焦在政府推動AI扮演的角色，對於政府發展跟應用AI的程序不清楚，數發部的部長也提出這樣的問題。數發部部長都提出這個問題喔！他還告訴我們說，希望能兼顧歐盟以管理為主，美日以產業為主，就我們的數發部部長來說，他也不大滿意國科會的草案。他不滿意你們國科會所提出來的草案，他認為應該兼顧管理跟產業。但是我必須要說，這就是我們臺灣的問題，什麼都要兼顧卻什麼都做不到！你到底是要以管理為主，還是要以產業為主？連美、日都要二選一，顯見其中有比重的問題，我們卻永遠告訴大家我們要兼顧、兼顧！不是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，黃部長對我們的草案是很滿意的。他跟我這樣講……"],["柯委員志恩：不會啊！他也做出很多批評啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：接下來因為數發部還要制定這個作用法，所以數發部會在兼管風險分類以及保障人權、隱私等等……"],["柯委員志恩：我告訴你，這是我們很大的一個問題，美、日和歐盟都已經執行過，你可以看到，歐盟要到2027年才上路，韓國是2025年公布，但是2026年才生效，因為他們對於要管得鬆或管得緊有所考慮，管得太鬆就會有剛剛所說的一些個資等等的問題，管得太緊則是會對產業發展有所影響。臺灣到目前為止我還沒有看到，我只看到部長提到一個「兼顧」，我只要看到「兼顧」兩個字，頭就抱著燒，因為兼顧就是一種最泛泛的說法，沒有辦法讓我們看出你們的想法。而且我還要問，政策形成都要經過法制的程序，而且一定要有法規政策影響評估，才可以陳報行政院，到目前為止，從國科會到數發部，這個過程會不會被省略掉？這是我比較擔心的，不管你們的罰責、你們的兼顧等等之類的，會不會把這個影響評估做得更簡化？會不會有這個問題？次長。"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有這個問題，我們所有的程序完全按照規定，都走過了，所有的溝通……"],["柯委員志恩：所以我們到底什麼時候會看到？"],["吳主任委員誠文：民間的溝通、政府部會的溝通全部都做過，數發部跟我們一起討論之後，才會送到行政院，行政院經過審查，各部會還有法制單位等等，所有的審查我們都走過了，接下來行政院應該很快就會……"],["柯委員志恩：我們要趕快看到！","剩下最後30秒的時間，我還是要提醒，數發部所謂的臺灣主權AI訓練語料庫目前到底建置得如何？以這個來源來說，說實在的，通常都是政府部門的比較容易拿到，但是你要知道，我們所有最大的database都是來自於民間，但很顯然在法令的建置上，這個部分還是有一些落差，所以什麼時候能夠來建構這個資料庫？這部分我們還是會不斷地緊追。","最後，我還要提到技術中立的問題。在技術中立的問題裡面，因為誰有這樣的database，誰就有話語權，我們會很擔心，在這個話語權的過程當中，你輸入的資料到底有沒有辦法維持技術上的中立？這個我還是要不斷地強調、提出。所以在建構資料庫的過程當中，麻煩兩個單位勢必、一定要好好地審慎來處理，好不好？我們就拭目以待，到時候看到基本法之後，我們再來做更細部的討論，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員的質詢，官員請回座。","接下來請李昆澤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,23-1","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳宗憲","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","柯志恩","李昆澤","林俊憲","陳素月","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","葉元之","蔡其昌","劉書彬","萬美玲","張雅琳","郭昱晴","何欣純","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","游顥","徐富癸","吳沛憶","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","范雲","林沛祥","邱若華","廖先翔","許宇甄","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；二、審查委員邱若華等 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謝謝林委員好"},{"start":11.838,"end":27.065,"text":"部長早安部長我們今天當然主要是預算解凍啦那麼面對其實中國的威脅本席是認為國防預算是完全不可以有任何的這個差池那麼像現在呢因為在野黨的堅持所以我們的國防預算是要執行了30%之後才能做解凍但是我們知道這個不論是我們的國軍弟兄他們的這個所謂戰備需要的物資包括你說像中"},{"start":40.612,"end":48.572,"text":"中國的軍艦或者是空軍的這個所謂共機啊一直在繞台那個弟兄的這個飛機升上去之後不能說這個有料"},{"start":51.247,"end":76.316,"text":"完全30了然後才來申請而且要經過院會飛機是要讓他掉下來嘛所以本席當然是認為可以解凍的要趕快來解凍不過我想我會提到這個來當開場白是因為我們知道今天在自由時報當中有刊登出來了就是賴清德賴總統在接受日本媒體訪問的時候有特別提到有關於現在兩岸局勢的部分那麼他特別提到的是說如果"},{"start":77.356,"end":91.675,"text":"兩岸會有所謂的擦槍走火的狀況也是因為中共透過油鹽轉戰為什麼我剛剛的開場白會特別的提到就是現在國防部的很多的預算包括我們這個業務費是要執行30%之後"},{"start":95.299,"end":111.594,"text":"才能提到院會來解凍那麼面對連總統都特別在對國際媒體的時候都講到那就是中國不斷的在台灣的四周包括東海南海做軍演那麼可怕的是由演轉戰的時候那麼我們到底該怎麼辦這個訊息的釋出我相信那麼這個也是問題"},{"start":117.62,"end":126.469,"text":"越來越嚴重了那麼部長怎麼來看這個連總統都對外提到中國的軍演在台灣四周所引發的灰色地帶作戰"},{"start":128.615,"end":154.014,"text":"我想這分兩點第一點就是說灰色地帶的一個襲擾是一種軍事的一個恫嚇加上認知戰那我們對於這樣子的一個灰色地帶的一個應處我們要從這兩個面向一方面我們對於這樣的軍事恫嚇我們要相關的有一些因應的作為但是我們不能夠來大量的消耗我們的"},{"start":155.474,"end":177.703,"text":"這些戰力所以要有一些如何的應處這是我們現在要面臨的一個課題第二個當然就是說認知戰我們對於這樣子的一個灰色地帶洗澡然後連結到他們相關從事認知戰我們要從事相關的反認知戰的一個反制的作為"},{"start":178.643,"end":186.185,"text":"好所以本席其實本來要問的是另外一個問題但是因為時間有限喔我要強調的就是中國加劇對台灣的這個整體的所謂侵擾那麼中共以我這個從天下雜誌所揭露的訊息當中就是包括我們2024年到2025年不斷的從共機共建再到氣球"},{"start":200.948,"end":217.952,"text":"的所謂氣球徵貨的這個數目其實都是在增加當中啦當然這個氣球徵貨的數目是降低但是從共機共建的次數是增加的但是如果說他們不斷地是用這個騷擾跟侵擾的方式但是如果面臨我們的國防預算是被凍結的狀態的時候他就等在"},{"start":220.273,"end":231.459,"text":"我們在凍結來不及解凍然後來發動整體的清老然後在演習當中由嚴轉戰的過程當中那麼我們是不是已經做好了必要的因應的準備"},{"start":233.347,"end":261.814,"text":"所以我這邊特別強調因為我們業務費的部分被凍結了百分之三十那因為如果說我們要按照這個條件是說我們要整體預算執行到百分之三十的話會落到這個六月多以後立法院修會的一個時間因為我不清楚現在立法院要不要延長然後延長到什麼時候所以我們很希望能夠在五月底以前"},{"start":263.434,"end":288.18,"text":"這個就能夠處理掉我們這個整個業務會的百分之三十的凍結不然的話對我們的影響會相當的大所以因為如果再拖下去那我們滿了三十但因為對啊因為滿三十之後這是表示說三十之後才能送進來嘛然後送進委員會再送業務會嘛這就是一個非常荒謬的狀況就是我剛剛開場特別問到的所以說"},{"start":288.7,"end":300.389,"text":"到時候整個國軍是要整個停擺嗎大家不要粗糙不要出情然後大家可能連上洗手間都不准去因為沒有業務費的話是不是連水電都不行那更不要講這些有關於海陸空的抵禦跟防禦那麼如果說現在這個規定在野黨就是已經這樣規定了有沒有特別去溝通跟去尤其是跟在野黨的委員來做讓他們理解"},{"start":320.883,"end":335.757,"text":"我們都有在做溝通那你們溝通了之後的結果是什麼在野黨的委員還是不同意國民黨的在野黨委員不同意嗎還是說這個騎乘定在那裡了就沒有辦法改所以也沒有辦法送"},{"start":337.324,"end":365.484,"text":"我現在程序上我的了解是這樣就是說這些要到院會裡面宣讀完之後然後才送程序委員會互委那所以我希望這個流程不要有任何的阻擋然後能夠順利的進入了程序委員會互委之後呢那希望這個委員會能夠安排因為我現在的了解是說他本來是說要在院會做報告"},{"start":366.104,"end":391.84,"text":"是那現在應該按照文化部的例子的話應該是可以交付委員會那如果說我們國防部的這個這一部分的解凍也可以按照這個程序就是說院會宣讀完之後然後就同意授權由委員會來進行這個報告之後來進行解凍我想這樣子會對我們的國防預算的這個執行會有很大的幫忙好"},{"start":392.58,"end":404.663,"text":"所以本席只是提醒啦在民進黨這裡我們當然是完全希望能夠國防的預算不要中間有所謂的空白期免得有空白期灰色地帶的侵擾就會直接由嚴轉戰成為直接的台灣的整個全面被中國有機會趁虛而入那至於是不是能夠走文化部的模式我就請國防部這裡再跟這個"},{"start":418.527,"end":440.953,"text":"至少我們國防委員會的在野黨的委員能夠讓他們來理解我相信他們應該站在這個國家本事議題沒有再分所謂這個在野黨或執政黨的部分我相信他們應該會有方向應該是善意的吧所以我們會跟朝院的委員都每一位都來進行好如果沒有的話我覺得事實是可以讓民眾知道"},{"start":442.148,"end":452.206,"text":"因為國防不可以,國家這個,國這個字不能有動,如果有動,難免會遭到我希望得到草野委員的一致的支持好,加油,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":229,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（9時52分）謝謝主席。主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：有請部長，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：部長早安。部長，我們今天當然主要是預算解凍，面對中國的威脅，本席認為國防預算完全不可以有任何差池。現在因為在野黨的堅持，所以我們的國防預算要執行百分之三十之後才能解凍，但是我們知道不論是我們國軍弟兄戰備需要的物資，包括中國的軍艦，或者是共機一直繞臺，國軍弟兄的飛機升上去之後，總不能油料完全用了三十，然後才來申請，而且要經過院會，是要讓飛機掉下來嗎？所以本席當然是認為可以解凍的要趕快解凍。","我會提到這個來當開場白，是因為我們知道今天在自由時報當中有刊登出來了，賴清德賴總統在接受日本媒體訪問的時候，有特別提到關於現在兩岸局勢的部分。他特別提到的是，如果兩岸會有所謂擦槍走火的狀況，也是因為中共透過由演轉戰。為什麼我剛剛的開場白會特別提到，現在國防部很多預算，包括業務費要執行百分之三十之後才能提到院會解凍？連總統在對國際媒體的時候都特別講到，中國不斷地在臺灣的四周包括東海、南海進行軍演，可怕的是由演轉戰的時候，我們到底該怎麼辦？這個訊息的釋出，我相信問題也是越來越嚴重了！部長怎麼看連總統都對外提到中國軍演在臺灣四周引發的灰色地帶作戰？"],["顧部長立雄：我想這分兩點，第一點就是灰色地帶襲擾是一種軍事恫嚇，加上認知戰，對於這樣子灰色地帶的應處，我們要從這兩個面向，一方面，我們對於這樣的軍事恫嚇，要有一些相關的因應作為，但是我們不能夠大量消耗我們的戰力。"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["顧部長立雄：所以要如何應處是我們現在要面臨的一個課題。第二個當然就是認知戰，我們對於這樣子的灰色地帶襲擾，然後連結到他們從事的認知戰，我們要從事相關反認知戰的反制作為。"],["林委員楚茵：本席本來要問的是另外一個問題，但是因為時間有限，我要強調的就是中國加劇對臺灣整體的侵擾，以我從天下雜誌所節錄的訊息當中，2024年到2025年共機、共艦，以及氣球偵獲的數目，其實都是在增加當中，當然氣球偵獲的數目有降低，但是共機、共艦偵獲數是增加的。如果他們不斷用騷擾跟侵擾的方式，卻面臨我們國防預算是被凍結狀態的時候，他們就會在我們還來不及解凍的時候發動整體侵擾，然後在演習的過程當中由演轉戰。我們是不是已經做好必要的因應準備？"],["顧部長立雄：所以我這邊特別講到，因為我們業務費的部分被凍結了百分之三十，按照這個條件，如果我們的整體預算要執行到百分之三十的話，會落到六月多以後立法院的休會期間，因為我不清楚現在立法院要不要延長，然後延長到什麼時候，所以我們很期望能夠在5月底以前就能夠處理掉我們整個業務費百分之三十的凍結，不然的話，對我們的影響會相當大，因為如果再拖下去，我們滿了三十，但因為……"],["林委員楚茵：對啊！滿三十之後就是表示三十之後才能送進來，然後送進委員會、再送院會，這就是一個非常荒謬的狀況，也是我剛剛開場特別問到的，所以到時候整個國軍是要整個停擺嗎？大家不要出操、不要出勤，然後大家可能連上洗手間都不准去，因為沒有業務費，是不是連水電都不行？更不要講有關海陸空的抵禦跟防禦。如果現在在野黨就是已經這樣規定了，有沒有特別去溝通？尤其是讓在野黨的委員理解？"],["顧部長立雄：我們都有在溝通。"],["林委員楚茵：你們溝通之後的結果是什麼？在野黨的委員還是不同意？國民黨的委員不同意嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在應該是……"],["林委員楚茵：還是說這個期程訂在那裡了就沒有辦法改，所以也沒有辦法送？"],["顧部長立雄：現在程序上我的了解是這樣，就是這些要到院會裡面宣讀完之後，然後才送程序委員會付委。我希望這個流程不要有任何阻擋，能夠順利進入程序委員會付委之後，希望委員會能夠安排。因為我現在的了解是，它本來是要在院會報告。"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["顧部長立雄：現在按照文化部的例子，應該是可以交付委員會。如果我們國防部這部分的解凍也可以按照這個程序，就是院會宣讀完之後，然後就同意授權由委員會進行報告之後，再進行解凍，我想這樣子對我們國防預算的執行會有很大的幫忙。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以本席只是提醒，在民進黨這裡，我們當然是完全希望國防預算中間不要有所謂的空白期，免得有空白期，灰色地帶的侵擾就會直接由演轉戰，使臺灣全面整個直接有機會被中國趁虛而入。至於是不是能夠走文化部的模式，我就請國防部至少能夠讓我們國防委員會的在野黨委員理解。我相信他們應該站在國家本是一體，沒有分在野黨或執政黨，我相信他們應該會有……方向應該是善意的吧！"],["顧部長立雄：是，我會跟朝野的委員，每一位都來進行……"],["林委員楚茵：好，如果沒有的話，我覺得可以適時讓民眾知道，因為國家的「國」這個字不能有洞，如果有洞，壞東西會跑進來。"],["顧部長立雄：我希望得到朝野委員一致的支持。"],["林委員楚茵：好，加油，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楚茵委員。待會等到林憶君委員質詢完畢的時候，我們休息10分鐘。","接下來，有請陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":40,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-13","speakers":["沈伯洋","陳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跨部會雖然主管機關是經濟部但是我不認為經濟部能夠做相關的統整"},{"start":28.769,"end":50.379,"text":"主席長我們兩個都是單身但是我們在不同的崗位上為您能服務所以我們一起加油那在這個條例當中的是來自於我們對對等關稅以及匯率波動以及所可能產生的經濟衰退所以我們提出了這個條例所以本席認為"},{"start":52.708,"end":69.936,"text":"好在美國利益優先的情況之下對等關稅現在已經有投資銀行預測我們台灣今年的台灣經濟成長率會下修減少0.4到1.1而上一週的台幣巨幅升值所影響的是不止"},{"start":70.416,"end":92.642,"text":"至於以美國為主要市場的業者可能還一定也會波及所有出口的業者所以台幣巨幅的升值的影響本席認為更勝於美國的對等關稅他衝擊的是以出口為主的工具機即我高雄幾乎是在傳統產業佔百分之八九十的金屬加工產業好再下一頁下一頁下一頁"},{"start":101.252,"end":112.485,"text":"不能動 不好意思主席不好意思 這個電腦有問題可不可以好 OK繼續一直不能動 你們這個"},{"start":119.022,"end":146.468,"text":"那再來呢我認為在這個條例當中雖然事件100億而且呢也針對經濟社會國土安全韌性但是簡單的講他應該要有這樣的功能就是協助企業跟國能度過這次不可預知的對等關稅因為這個對等關稅是來自美國小數的菁英的決策所以他的不可預知性的對等關稅的全球經濟的核保我們是要去因應的"},{"start":149.629,"end":172.535,"text":"但是本席也要提醒在相關的資源項目當中我們忽略了一項台灣處於極端氣候與地震週期交互的違憲台灣處於地震帶與颱風入境核心的區域極端氣候頻率及強度是加劇的所以在你們的資料統整起來在人口聚集、交通設施"},{"start":173.695,"end":198.113,"text":"關鍵基礎設施處於潛在高風險包括土石流土壤異化跟易淹水的地方容易形成複合式的災害這個複合式災害所以顯示我國在國土韌性上的政策整合預警機制跟基礎建設的強化是有明顯的落差的而導致國人的生命財產安全暴露在潛在的風險中所以本席認為你們應該評估強化國土韌性建設同步"},{"start":201.515,"end":224.438,"text":"擴大政府的公共建設以為是民間的產業擴大公共建設我認為在這個條例當中沒有看到今天如果沒有我們的前瞻計畫如果沒有我的議後條例就不會造成我現在的企業的年年超增年年超增表示什麼意思"},{"start":225.359,"end":251.704,"text":"就是我企業活絡所以選對的人才能做對的事從蔡總統時代到現在賴清德總統時代都走在對的路上是因為我們對於我們的公共建設大陸的投入而讓我們的經濟成長能夠優於國際的水平這是多麼不容易的一個成就可是今天的特別條例當中我"},{"start":253.544,"end":264.408,"text":"非常的支持但是他大部分都是用在補助即使這1400億行政院版本我們支持企業是930億即使是民眾黨國民黨提高額度但是他還是在補助你比我還清楚他們不會顯示在企業的財報但是他會對企業什麼幫忙穩定他的財務狀況"},{"start":275.051,"end":290.886,"text":"但是他的獲利會不會增加不會的所以還是在這個都是在補助的部分所以我認為在公建的一個導入既然我們都可以有我們說不用到美國大蕭條的擴大公共建設講到國內近期內"},{"start":293.248,"end":317.441,"text":"蔡總統時代到現在的賴總統時代我們所做的擴大攻堅對穩定經濟是多麼重要可是剛才我已經開出名義講了已經經濟會下修因為對等關稅跟我的匯率的波動會造成經濟下修今天我的條例就是要穩住這個經濟的下修所以本席這邊具體建議幾項啦我不知道還有沒有這個可能性但是請主計長跟這個各部會一定要參採"},{"start":318.542,"end":340.495,"text":"既然極端氣候加速極端氣候跟地震週期風險有關的國家基礎建設來擴大政府的資助維持產業的活水所以第二個針對一定年限的老舊建物給予政策優惠促進改建再造跟民宅抗爭50年以上40年以上50年以上60年以上的老宅"},{"start":342.297,"end":353.731,"text":"這個你們都很有數據喔我們是在一個極端氣候跟地震週期這麼頻繁的國家我們在這個特別條例當中的擴大建設既然沒有擴大建設更不用再講說這些的這個相關的這個"},{"start":357.895,"end":380.045,"text":"在這個面對氣候變遷所帶來的公建當中的投入好也考量我們的公建應該要讓各級學校的老舊校舍進行改建讓他具備複合式災害防災時的這個避難你到日本大家都有可能到日本去做做考察也好或做遊玩他們最安全的公共建設在哪裡學校"},{"start":381.653,"end":398.607,"text":"主機場我剛才講的很多數據你一直都在點頭所以你都很清楚國內外的狀況是怎麼樣所以我們老舊想 可是在國內什麼最脆弱的工業是在學校好在最後面對這個匯率波動直接影響的服務產業觀光商圈跟餐飲業你們應該給短期因為你們的這個支持企業的產業跟安定你們都針對出口的企業在做補助"},{"start":411.357,"end":425.744,"text":"但是因為我匯率的波動我的這個匯率的貶值我的光框商圈餐飲反而面對疫情後有稍微要回升了我們用了很大的力氣讓現在又因為匯率波動大家都要出國了"},{"start":427.145,"end":456.525,"text":"我們的觀光商圈還有餐飲還好遍野我們的匯率我們的特別條例並沒有給予支持所以在這邊我具體建議所以應該要刺激內需產業的活路不是針對外銷的企業內需產業的活特別是在觀光旅遊商業服務等遭受匯率波動直接衝擊的那我要講今天我們推出這個條例就希望人民有感大部分的就業人口是在哪裡"},{"start":457.125,"end":469.96,"text":"服務業主計長你又在點頭 我非常感謝跟你講話我覺得頻率很對第二個 提高政府基礎建設的支出更新老舊建設維持各級產業的生機來確保我們勞工的就業"},{"start":474.525,"end":487.514,"text":"因為有工作機會呀面對可能的市場開放 榮畜產品這個是針對農業部講的 這個部長陳俊晉陳部長應該很清楚我一直在倡議國境先進技術也就是基因定序從你的基因定序要導入你的精準的榮譽牧的產業升級而且我們要有一個國家來統籌這些基因的數據有一個規模數據我的產品同樣在養無國魚我的產品就是比中國好 我就是比巴西好"},{"start":504.585,"end":521.559,"text":"比其他國家好這才叫做產業升級所以在這個先進技術基因定序的導入精準農業利用市場的力量來結合政策工具希望能夠縮小國內農民牧業的跟國際的生產成本主席長你怎麼看本席的建議"},{"start":523.007,"end":550.18,"text":"是委員提的各項建議也是我們原想要將來要做的但是坦白說我們115年度要把希望多希望把前瞻鄉邊做的一些各項的建設也能夠拉到總預算來做但是問題就是說115年度因為財化法我們減了3750幾億那這方面會有各種的困難但是這個我們目前也在逐漸的克服"},{"start":550.6,"end":561.246,"text":"那你剛剛談到的一個老舊的一個建物這個部分其實在特別條例就已經有些優先納進去了所以這個部分我們也是認為老舊建物的一個這個必須要做一個加強那再來"},{"start":566.008,"end":581.432,"text":"有關教育學校方面的部分因為學校方面我們是有保障的在那個全三年的一個稅收的一個23%裡面他是有一個保障的一個額度所以這個部分我們會盡量就優先來做是"},{"start":581.932,"end":605.191,"text":"主計長我對於您也有在評估雖然這次沒有納入那也有在相關的這個項目當中有去支持那我本期針對參與委員的版本有一項我非常的支持益助台水股份有限公司這次沒有納入但是我要讓主計長您知道一件事情我們的台水它的主要義務就兩個一個叫沿管一個叫管線貸換管線貸換占八成"},{"start":611.316,"end":631.121,"text":"鹽管佔兩成 這兩成來自這個水利署的預算這八成的汰換都是來自哪裡 台水的借錢全部都是用借貸好 主席長你很清楚 你有點頭 我覺得跟你講話真的評語很對這個 它是用借貸來做它最主要的業務"},{"start":632.961,"end":635.464,"text":"你能想像嗎一個國家的公建一個水管的台灣是讓這個企業是國營企業喔來做用借貸來做台灣他已經累積1100億的負債了然後呢他借貸來之後做兩件事情一個還債一個來再做公建"},{"start":652.563,"end":658.307,"text":"所以然後再來呢他又不准漲水價喔這是所有我們不分藍綠的立委又不可以漲水價有啦現在針對高耗能的1000噸以上的讓他可以漲啦所以電油的漲價的成本政府吸收可是你水的部分的動漲你也沒有支持他"},{"start":674.079,"end":680.643,"text":"所以我不曉得這個企業怎麼活得下去 因為他叫做國營企業所以銀行再怎麼樣都要借給他 你在民間怎麼可能借給這家公司所以他借貸來做公件 借貸來之後又分做兩個 一個還錢 一個來做公件而且他的公件當中的貸款是佔這個公司的八成"},{"start":697.074,"end":716.084,"text":"然後呢 他又不准他漲水價 這我本行也反對那不准他漲的 這個成本又在哪裡政府都不給他 又給台電 也給這個中油你就不會想說要給台 這個台水所以我非常肯定參與蔡委員 他這個針對你們的這個當中資源的項目我不曉得竹記長你怎麼看"},{"start":720.686,"end":745.288,"text":"我們針對台水 第一個就是老舊管線的一個汰換這個部分其實我們是有補助的 主流在補助對 可是太少了 你看今年你才補80億耶可是它是已經負債1000億耶你知道汰換的工程都是百億百億百億在支持耶那第二個就是將來也逐漸就是要提高水價的一個方式來做那您是不支持用這樣的"},{"start":746.369,"end":766.901,"text":"這次即使沒有納入 你未來願不願意評估用我們的這個年度的結餘 或者是我們超徵的這個金額來做這個台水它的債務的不要說債務啦 確實也是債務或者是它的一個動漲的成本的一個吸收呢由政府來做 你認不認同 你要不要去評估呢我們會盡量來優先考慮好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":484,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時47分）有請主計長。"],["主席：主計長。"],["林委員岱樺：因為是跨部會，雖然主管機關是經濟部，但是我不認為經濟部能夠做相關的統整。主計長，我們兩個都是單身，但是我們在不同的崗位上為人民服務，所以我們一起加油。","這個條例是來自於我們對對等關稅以及匯率波動以及所可能產生的經濟衰退，所以我們提出了這個條例，在美國利益優先的情況之下，現在已經有投資銀行預測，我們臺灣今年的經濟成長率會下修，減少0.4到1.1個百分點，而上一週臺幣的巨幅升值，所影響的不僅止於以美國為主要市場的業者，一定也會波及所有出口的業者，所以臺幣巨幅升值的影響，本席認為更甚於美國的對等關稅，它衝擊的是以出口為主的工具機，即我高雄在傳統產業中幾乎占80、90%的金屬加工產業。在這個條例當中，雖然有4,100億，而且也針對經濟、社會、國土安全韌性，但是簡單的講，它應該要有這樣的功能，就是協助企業跟國人度過這次不可預知的對等關稅，因為這個對等關稅是來自於美國少數菁英的決策，因為它有不可預知性，由對等關稅引發全球經濟核爆，我們要去因應。","但是本席也要提醒，在相關的資源項目當中，我們忽略了一項，臺灣處於極端氣候與地震週期交互下的風險，臺灣處於地震帶與颱風路徑的核心區域，極端氣候頻率及強度加劇，所以你們的資料統整起來，在人口聚集、交通設施、關鍵基礎設施處於潛在高風險區，包括土石流、土壤液化跟易淹水的地方，容易形成複合式的災害。所以顯示我國在國土韌性上的政策整合、預警機制跟基礎建設的強化，有明顯的落差，導致國人的生命、財產安全暴露在潛在的風險中。所以本席認為你們應該評估強化國土韌性建設，同步擴大政府的公共建設，以維護民間的產業。","我認為在這個條例當中，沒有看到擴大公共建設這方面，今天如果沒有前瞻計畫，如果沒有疫後條例，就不會造成現在稅收的年年超徵，年年超徵表示什麼意思？就是企業活絡，所以選對的人才能做對的事，從蔡總統時代到現在賴清德總統時代，都走在對的路上，是因為我們對於我們的公共建設大量的投入，而讓我們的經濟成長能夠優於國際的水平，這是多麼不容易的一個成就。","今天的特別條例我非常的支持，但是它大部分都是用在補助，在這4,100億的行政院版本中，支持企業的部分是930億，即使民眾黨、國民黨提高額度，但是它還是在補助，你比我還清楚，他們不會顯示在企業的財報，但是它對企業有什麼幫忙？穩定它的財務狀況，但是它的獲利會不會增加？不會的，因為都是在補助的部分，所以我認為在公建的導入，不用到美國大蕭條的擴大公共建設，講到國內、近期內，蔡總統時代到現在的賴總統時代，我們所做的擴大公建對穩定經濟是多麼重要，可是剛才我已經開宗明義講了，經濟會下修，因為對等關稅跟匯率波動會造成經濟下修，今天這個條例就是要穩住經濟的下修。","所以本席這邊具體建議幾項，我不知道還有沒有這個可能性，但是請主計長跟各部會一定要參採。第一個，加速跟極端氣候、地震週期風險有關的國家基礎建設，擴大政府的支出、維持產業的活水。第二個，針對一定年限的老舊建物給予政策優惠，促進改建再造跟民宅抗震，40年以上、50年以上、60年以上的老宅，這個你們都很有數據，我們是在一個極端氣候跟地震週期這麼頻繁的國家，在這個特別條例當中竟然沒有擴大建設，更不用講面對氣候變遷所帶來的公建投入。考量到我們的公建，應該要讓各級學校的老舊校舍進行改建，讓它具備複合式災害發生時有災防避難之功能，大家都有可能到日本去考察或是遊玩，他們最安全的公共建設在哪裡？學校！主計長，我剛才講了很多數據，你一直都在點頭，所以你很清楚國內外的狀況是怎麼樣，可是在國內的情形是什麼？最脆弱的公建是在學校。","最後，面對匯率波動，直接影響服務產業，即觀光、商圈跟餐飲業，你們應該給短期……因為你們所做的支持產業跟安定，都是針對出口的企業在做補助，但是因為匯率波動、貶值，觀光、商圈、餐飲在面對疫情後有要稍微回升了，我們用了很大的力氣，但現在又因為匯率波動，大家都要出國，我們的觀光商圈還有餐飲哀鴻遍野，但我們的特別條例並沒有給予支持。","所以在這邊我具體建議，第一，應該要刺激內需產業的活絡，不是針對外銷的企業，是內需產業，特別是在觀光旅遊、商業服務等直接遭受匯率波動衝擊的產業。我要講，今天我們推出這個條例就是希望人民有感，大部分的就業人口是在哪裡？服務業。好，主計長你又再點頭，我非常感謝，跟你講話我覺得頻率很對。","第二，提高政府基礎建設的支出，更新老舊建設，維持各級產業的生機，確保勞工的就業。因為有工作機會呀！面對可能的市場開放，尤其是農、畜產品，這個是針對農業部講的，陳駿季部長應該很清楚，我一直在倡議國際先進技術，特別是基因定序，基因定序要導入精準農、漁、牧業的產業升級，而且要有一個國家層級來統籌這些基因數據，能有規模數據，同樣在養吳郭魚，我們的產品就是比中國好、比巴西好、比其他國家好，這才叫做產業升級。所以先進技術的基因定序要導入精準農業，利用市場的力量來結合政策工具，希望能夠縮小國內農、漁、牧業跟國際間的生產成本。主計長，你怎麼看本席的建議？"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員，你提的各項建議也是我們將來想要做的，坦白說，我們115年度希望把前瞻相關的各項建設能夠納到總預算，但問題是，115年度因為財劃法的關係，我們將減少三千七百五十幾億，這方面會有各種的困難，我們目前也逐漸在克服。你剛剛談到老舊建物的部分，其實在特別條例就已經有優先納入，我們也認為老舊建物必須要做加強。再來是有關教育、學校方面的部分，學校方面我們是有保障的，它在前三年稅收的23%裡面是有一個保障額度，因此這部分我們會儘量優先進行。"],["林委員岱樺：主計長，您也有在評估，雖然這次沒有納入，但有在相關的項目當中去支持。本席針對蔡易餘委員的版本，有一項我非常支持，就是挹注台灣自來水股份有限公司，雖然這次沒有納入，但是我要讓主計長知道一件事情，台水的主要業務有兩個，一個是延管，一個是管線汰換，管線汰換占八成，延管占兩成，這兩成來自水利署的預算，而八成的汰換是來自哪裡？是台水借錢，全部都是用借貸，主計長，你很清楚，你有點頭，我覺得跟你講話真的頻率很對。它是用借貸來做最主要的業務，你能想像嗎？一個國家的公建，水管的汰換是國營企業用借貸來做汰換，它已經累積1,100億的負債了，然後它借貸來之後做兩件事情，一個還債，一個再做公建，而又不准它漲水價，這是所有不分藍綠立委都主張不可以漲水價，有啦！現在針對高耗能1,000噸以上的讓它可以漲。","電、油的漲價成本由政府吸收，可是水價凍漲，你們也沒有支持它，我不曉得這個企業怎麼活得下去？只因為它叫做國營事業、國營企業，所以銀行再怎麼樣都要借錢給它，如果是民間公司，銀行怎麼可能借錢給它！它用借貸來做公建，借貸之後又分做兩個，一個還錢、一個做公建，而且公建當中的汰換是占這個公司的八成，然後又不准它漲水價，這本席也反對，但不准它漲，那成本又在哪裡？政府不給它，給台電，也給中油，但就不會想要給台水，因此我非常肯定蔡易餘委員的版本。針對當中的資源項目，我不曉得主計長怎麼看？"],["陳主計長淑姿：針對台水的部分，第一個是老舊管線的汰換，其實我們是有補助的，逐年在補助。"],["林委員岱樺：對，可是太少了，你看今年才補80億耶！"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，80億。"],["林委員岱樺：可是它已經負債1,000億，你知道汰換的工程都是百億、百億、百億在支持耶！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。第二個，將來也逐漸要以提高水價的方式來因應。"],["林委員岱樺：您支不支持用這樣的……這次即使沒有納入，您未來願不願意評估用年度的結餘，或者是超徵的金額來做台水的債務……不要說債務，但確實也是債務，或者是它凍漲成本的吸收呢？由政府來做，你認不認同？你要不要去評估呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們會儘量優先考慮。"],["林委員岱樺：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":154,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-1","speakers":["謝衣鳯","賴士葆","張啓楷","林岱樺","邱議瑩","林德福","張嘉郡","郭國文","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","李坤城","陳俊宇","林思銘","鄭正鈐","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝各位委員還有官員我請環境部部長來 請評部長"},{"start":15.789,"end":43.366,"text":"部長好第一個我想先關心就是許多醫療體系最近很在意的議題因為大家都知道說這個碳排查的問題是醫療體系佔排放量很大宗是超級碳排的大戶那目前知道衛福部已經有26家的部立醫院已經完成碳排查了但說實在的是很多這個醫護人員跟我反映的他們其實平常業務真的是非常的繁忙但他們還需要再另外派人"},{"start":43.986,"end":69.953,"text":"去學習所有的這些的知識那我知道說你們未來預計呢要再做23家醫學中心的攤盤查可是對於資源相對比較低像現在人力比較缺乏健保的點值也受到很多限制的區域醫院還有地區醫院他們會希望爭取更多的資源來支撐不知道這方面你有沒有辦法做協助呢"},{"start":70.641,"end":96.774,"text":"報告委員因為我所知道是衛福部醫事司大概一年兩千萬來做這個協助這個碳盤查這個工作但是以我們環境部的認知喔其實因為第一個醫院我們不會收他碳費啊所以基本上醫院應該是主動的去節電做這個ASCO相關的節電這個比做碳盤查來得更實際一點點所以包含像長庚醫院他就非常的認真那但是有些醫院我剛剛講的是區域醫院對"},{"start":98.755,"end":127.022,"text":"就醫學中心當然他自己像長庚醫院他甚至有自己研發節能的能力對所以我講的是比較小型的可是他可能在社區或者是偏鄉相對蠻重要的他們會希望衛福部可以明確來規範他們要做哪些減碳的措施還有碳盤查哪些是必要的項目但這方面的話關於這些小型的醫療機構他們是希望衛福部或者是環境部來"},{"start":128.742,"end":149.936,"text":"給衛福部協助可以多給一些誘因或者是資源等等的我們現在明年開始會是擴大列管的範圍不過是以醫學中心為主所以那個中小型的其實是不會列管的但是如果說中小型他願意去改善那個節電的話他也是省錢的一種方式啦我們也是鼓勵啦但是目前的確是沒有資源來特別協助他們"},{"start":150.956,"end":177.225,"text":"好這是他們很在意的一個點那再來這題比較特別一點點是因為剛之前有質詢過您關於環境部的任性計畫裡面就有包括核生化這些救災車等等的所以您會知道說任性是未來我們國家很重要的一個議題尤其是地緣政治的關係或是位處於地震帶那當然您有做到"},{"start":178.065,"end":199.438,"text":"這個全國公測工程的補助計畫叫做美質環境推動計畫這個是很好但今天想要跟你討論一個重點是日本呢他們在經歷過阪神大地震還有後續的其他地震之後他們就發現在沒有電力沒有排水的狀況之下其實市民的如測權變成一個很重要的問題"},{"start":200.759,"end":227.6,"text":"對那這個是後來我們去研究日本他們怎麼做他們就開始去開發一個組合式的公測那他會在這個人孔蓋拿起來以後把它接上去裝上去之後這個組合時間其實只需要15分鐘但是他兼顧了隱私那兼顧了這個韌性那兼顧長輩的尤其是行動不方便的這個等一下我們再來看台灣的來做一個比較"},{"start":228.641,"end":237.65,"text":"所以我是在想您有沒有考慮把韌性列入您未來公測的設施改善計畫當中我們目前還沒有"},{"start":238.476,"end":267.181,"text":"我們目前還沒有在做這個事我們現在是改善這個廁所的品質公廁的品質為目標所以委員提這個建議非常好我們可以來想看看怎麼樣來推動這個事情給你看一下我們現在的圖當然您現在的改善計畫裡面包括永續、環保、性別平權友善、綠能等等精神都已經是現在國際公廁的趨勢沒有錯可是加入任性的話這個是我們平常會看到的"},{"start":268.001,"end":280.703,"text":"像這樣子租一台的租金大概是600到700而且移動的時間你要把它考量進來對不對到時候如果是地震或者是大型的災害搬進來是非常不容易的"},{"start":282.185,"end":299.446,"text":"還有他其實長輩不友善他完全沒有無障礙的空間對那這個是我們現在要用的所以我希望說未來可不可以一個月內提供書面報告是不是考慮在下個年度把任性這樣子的概念放進您的公策改善計畫裡面"},{"start":300.438,"end":325.785,"text":"好委員這個我們來研究一下因為目前這個是中央災害應變中心他因應這個可能發生這種緊急事故的時候他的確有這樣的一個規劃但是我們現在環境部門美職的這個廁所改善並沒有含在這一塊那這個我們來研究一下對但因為全國的公廁是您是最高指導單位嘛對對因此這也是日本人他們遇到了大型災害以後才發現哇原來他們之前除了電力除了水"},{"start":326.525,"end":330.335,"text":"除了飲食 他們沒有考慮到的地方他們才會去做這樣子的發明好 謝謝委員滿好的意見 謝謝"},{"start":334.414,"end":359.967,"text":"好下一個您年初的時候曾經提出說你要發表一個新控體政策白皮書作為第三期那因為這個議題大家最近越來越關切5月17以後火力發電可能會提高到84%所以大家也想知道現在已經今年已經快過一半了可是您年初說要做出的這個白皮書到現在都還沒有看到請問現在進度如何"},{"start":360.467,"end":384.267,"text":"包委員我們禮拜五就會公佈已經好了那因為我自己我自己也有在看看得很細一個一個在改所以稍微延後了大概一兩個禮拜那這個禮拜五就會開記者會對外公佈那之前您曾經說到說這個白皮書可能包括預報還可以應變然後還可以做管理您方便現在稍微透露一下您是要怎麼利用"},{"start":386.294,"end":400.393,"text":"這個應變管理或是預警來加強呢第一個是我們過去那個空瓶的預報或是監測是屬於監知師那大氣師是如果空污的時候他們再來整個統合還有跟各縣市環保局那現在他們已經這個"},{"start":401.394,"end":418.063,"text":"做整合了我們有一組原來做預報的同仁已經移到大西市去進行運作了所以現在在磨合當中所以未來他們這個速度就會更快例如說遇到空污的事件的時候他們就會更快的結合到發布到民眾跟地方政府共同應變來做處理"},{"start":419.284,"end":446.701,"text":"那這個報告書呢其實也跟委員報告其實我們最近也發現就是說很多大家的民眾的空屋呢生活的空屋是蠻多的例如說我們家裡面一打開瓦斯那個LNG一打開其實也有很多的這個微粒會跑出來所以其實未來我們民眾的生活的空屋如何改善這個是未來是我們一個很大的一個重點所以你的意思是說你這個白皮書很大一部分是要告訴民眾說他生活中不管是他接觸家用的"},{"start":447.681,"end":474.819,"text":"家用的這些電器或者是說他的交通工具你想要提高這方面的意識其實最重要是說因為我們有一個目標啦我希望說2030年我們PM2.5可以拚到10啦這個是我們一個很大的目標那當然現在進入一個深水區現在的工具是做不到的但是如果敬禮努力做有機會PM2.52030可以到10以下或是2035可以到8這也是大家最擔心的"},{"start":475.899,"end":500.296,"text":"因為我已經告訴你很快火力發電就會提高到84%所以本席今天想跟您討論的是您之前受訪的時候提到說電力對於國內境內的空污來自交通的占比是12.2%工業大概是10.7%電力的占比只有2.3%而且主要是火力發電這一點跟一般"},{"start":500.976,"end":516.754,"text":"民眾的嘗試或是直覺落差非常的大所以這一點是想要今天跟您請教的是說您的資料來源是不是台灣污染源排放清澈TDS12.0"},{"start":518.795,"end":544.988,"text":"對 2021年的由我們環境部所委託的然後收集全台灣的各種的排炭源然後把它排放之後經由大氣的擴散之後算出來一年所以您講的火力發電站空污的2.3%其實您指的只是PM2.5嗎對 PM2.5有包含它自己本身直接排放的或是它衍生的例如說SACS、NACS都在裡面是一個統合的結果但是你如果把其他這些衍生物"},{"start":546.605,"end":564.185,"text":"氮氧化物或是硫氧化物加一加它並不只2.5%2.3%包委員因為我們空汙現在大概都直接看PM2.5因為PM2.5有包含它原生的或是它衍生的例如說SAXNAX或是ORON臭氧它們其實經過化學反應之後也會造成微粒的增加好"},{"start":564.685,"end":592.221,"text":"那在您引用的這個資料呢其實流氧化物或是氮氧化物它的比例是蠻高的它在火力發電站全國的污染比例分別是16.5%還有40.4%那您說出2.3這樣子的數據其實跟裡面看到的40.4它的落差是很高的我是希望啦您還是可以讓人民知道說第一空污的這些"},{"start":593.341,"end":618.426,"text":"來源喔不只是PM2.5因為其實您剛講到其他東西全部都是很傷害人體健康的沒有統一基本上我們現在看的都是PM2.5因為PM2.5就包含它原生的微粒或是說例如說燃煤電廠它一定有微粒那您會告訴我們說未來5月17之後您最在意的這個PM2.5所佔空污的比例到底會不會升高"},{"start":619.146,"end":642.029,"text":"我們有算過 評估過 如果說河山的兩個機組關掉之後這幾年前我們就有特別做過了 其實大概只增加0.003維克但是我必須說那是年平均 不是說某一天因為有時候萬一大氣擴散不好的時候其實有時候某一些可能相對的會比較高 那個是一個平均的數值"},{"start":642.87,"end":660.166,"text":"好因為現在許許多多你知道現在鄉民也非常會做這些資料的分析所以我希望未來你還是可以在PM2.5以外其他會影響人體健康的你都把它一起算進來好嗎是可以但是我們現在看的都是PM2.5它直接或間接衍生的這個污染物"},{"start":661.306,"end":685.371,"text":"最後一個問題就是您今天講到的這個PFAS管理行動計畫其實本席只是想點出跟你們其他環境部以前的專案不同在哪裡你們以前包括提出了比如說污染鑑定還有感染技術開發計畫還有全國環境檢測智慧轉型計畫水質推動計畫等等等等等等"},{"start":686.471,"end":709.479,"text":"都會做好三件事情第一個就是把總經費還好包括上次你提出的任性計畫其實化學任性計畫也是一樣嘛第二是把責任分工規劃好每一個機關每一年要花多少錢做多少事情還有把績效還有進度都訂好像是你總共要做幾年然後你每年至少要做到哪些事情可是在你這個PFAS"},{"start":711.3,"end":720.622,"text":"管理計畫從頭翻到尾是非常的空泛的第一個沒有執行年限第二個沒有制定績效第三也沒有總經費沒有分年期的經費"},{"start":722.598,"end":740.559,"text":"跟我們報告,因為PFAS它本身就是私的和我們公約的一個延伸的管理物質那我們從1997年其實就有一個這個叫做持久性有機化的公約,這也是跨部會的那當時的執行方式就是因為這個物質它是一直不斷的發展"},{"start":742.62,"end":770.789,"text":"所以在擬定這個計畫當時就不會把定下一個期限但是它是每年都有工作項目然後每年檢討你現在唯一考核管制每年就只有一次那上一次我質詢的時候才剛爆出說有37座淨水廠遭到包含PFA之內的致癌物超標但是飲用水條例都已經28年沒有修訂了所以其實訂定績效是蠻重要的"},{"start":771.169,"end":790.361,"text":"是 各位報告這個我們會來檢討因為工作項目真的是跨了太多 太多那經費都是在原來他的計畫裡面去融資所以譬如說因為他這個有機軟物是很多種那現在我們是希望他PPS優先來做可你優先來做要抽出多少錢來"},{"start":791.081,"end":807.61,"text":"我們在跟部位研商的時候其實這有困難不過我們來盡可能來把它看能不能這個期限好 那再麻煩一個月給我兩個報告第一個是廁所的韌性第二個是這個你PFAS管理計畫要如何做改進謝謝可以 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":543,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時44分）謝謝主席、謝謝各位委員，還有官員。我請環境部部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長好。第一個我想先關心的是許多醫療體系最近很在意的議題，因為大家都知道碳盤查的問題是醫療體系占排放量很大宗，是超級碳排的大戶，目前知道衛福部已經有26家的部立醫院完成碳排查了，但說實在的，很多醫護人員跟我反映他們其實平常業務真的是非常的繁忙，但還需要再另外派人去學習所有的這些知識，我知道你們未來預計要再做23家醫學中心的碳盤查，可是對於資源相對比較低，像現在人力比較缺乏，健保的點值也受到很多限制的區域醫院及地區醫院，他們會希望爭取更多的資源來支撐，不知道這方面，你有沒有辦法做協助？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我所知道是衛福部醫事司大概1年有2,000萬協助碳盤查這個工作，但是以我們環境部的認知，其實因為第一個，我們不會收醫院碳費，所以基本上醫院應該是主動的去節電，做ESCO相關的節電，這個比做碳盤查來得更實際一點點，所以包含像長庚醫院就非常的認真，但是有些醫院這個部分……"],["陳委員菁徽：我剛剛講的是區域醫院跟地區醫院。"],["彭部長啓明：對，區域。"],["陳委員菁徽：醫學中心當然它自己……"],["彭部長啓明：就要做了。"],["陳委員菁徽：像長庚醫院，它甚至有自己研發節能的能力。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我講的是比較小型的，可是它可能在社區或者是偏鄉相對也滿重要的，他們會希望衛福部可以明確規範他們要做哪些減碳的措施，還有碳盤查哪些是必要的項目，但這方面的話，關於這些小型的醫療機構，他們是希望衛福部或者是環境部給予衛福部協助，可以多給一些誘因或者是資源等等的。"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們明年開始會擴大列管的範圍，不過是以醫學中心為主，所以中小型的其實是不會列管的，但是如果中小型願意去改善節電的話，也是省錢的一種方式，我們也是鼓勵，但是目前的確是沒有資源來特別協助他們。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這是他們很在意的一個點。再來，這題比較特別一點點，因為之前有質詢過您關於環境部的韌性計畫，裡面就有包括核生化這些救災車等等的，所以您會知道韌性是未來我們國家很重要的一個議題，尤其是地緣政治的關係或是位處於地震帶，當然您有做到全國公廁工程的補助計畫，叫做美質環境推動計畫，這個是很好，但今天想要跟你討論一個重點是，日本在經歷過阪神大地震，還有後續的其他地震之後，他們就發現在沒有電力、沒有排水的狀況之下，其實市民的如廁權變成一個很重要的問題，這個是後來我們去研究日本怎麼做，他們就開始開發一個組合式的公廁，它會在人孔蓋拿起來以後，把它接上去，裝上去之後，這個組合時間其實只需要15分鐘，但它兼顧了隱私、兼顧了韌性、兼顧長輩，尤其是行動不方便的，等一下我們再來看臺灣的，來做一個比較。所以我是在想您有沒有考慮把韌性列入您未來公廁的設施改善計畫當中？"],["彭部長啓明：我們目前還沒有在做這個事，我們現在是以改善公廁的品質為目標，所以委員提這個建議非常好，我們可以來想看看怎麼樣來推動這個事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：給您看一下我們現在的圖，當然您現在的改善計畫裡面包括了永續、環保、性別、平權、友善、綠能等等精神，都已經是現在國際公廁的趨勢沒有錯，可是加入韌性的話，這個是我們平常會看到的，像這樣子一臺，租一臺的租金大概是600元到700元，而且你要把移動的時間考量進來，對不對？到時候如果是地震或者是大型的災害，它搬進來是非常不容易的，還有它其實對長輩不友善，完全沒有無傷礙的空間，但這個是我們現在要用的。所以我希望未來可不可以在一個月內提供書面報告，是不是考慮在下個年度把韌性這樣子的概念放進您的公廁改善計畫裡面？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們來研究一下，因為目前這個是中央災害應變中心因應可能發生這種緊急事故的時候，它的確有這樣的一個規劃，但是我們現在環境部的美質廁所改善，並沒有含在這一塊，這個部分我們來研究一下。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，但是因為全國的公廁，您是最高指導單位嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：這也是日本人遇到了大型災害以後，才發現原來之前除了電力、除了水、除了飲食，這是他們沒有考慮到的地方，他們才會去做這樣子的發明。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員滿好的意見，謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。下一個，年初的時候，您曾經提出要發表一個新空品政策白皮書作為第三期，因為這個議題大家最近越來越關切，5月17日以後，火力發電可能會提高到84%，所以大家也想知道，因為今年已經快過一半了，可是您年初說要做出的這個白皮書，到現在都還沒有看到，請問現在進度如何？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，已經做好了，我們禮拜五就會公布，因為我自己也很仔細在看，一個一個改，所以稍微延後了大概一兩個禮拜，這個禮拜五就會開記者會對外公布。"],["陳委員菁徽：之前您曾經提到這個白皮書可能包括預報、應變，然後還可以管理，在此您方便稍微透露一下，您要怎麼利用這個在應變、管理或預警上加強？"],["彭部長啓明：第一，過去的空品預報或監測是屬於監資司，如果有空污的時候，大氣司再來和各縣市環保局統合，現在他們已經進行整合了，有一組原來做預報的同仁已經移到大氣司進行運作，現在在磨合當中，未來他們的速度會更快，例如遇到空污事件的時候，他們會更快的結合、發布，然後跟民眾、地方政府共同來應變處理。也跟委員報告，其實最近我們也發現很多生活空污是蠻多的，例如我們在家裡一打開瓦斯、LNG一打開，就有很多微粒會跑出來，所以有關民眾的生活空污要如何改善，是未來我們一個很大的重點。"],["陳委員菁徽：你的意思是說，這個白皮書有很大一部分是要告訴民眾，生活中有很多生活空污，不管是他接觸的這些家用電器或者是他的交通工具，你是想要提高這方面的意識？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對，其實最重要是說，因為我們有一個目標，希望2030年的PM2.5可以拼到10，這個是我們一個很大的目標，當然現在進入一個深水區，以現在的工具是做不到的，但如果淨零努力做，有機會2030年的PM2.5可以到10以下，或是2035年可以到8，這是我們最大的目標。"],["陳委員菁徽：這也是大家最擔心的地方，因為我已經告訴你很快火力發電就會提高到84%，所以今天本席想跟您討論的是，之前您受訪時提到國內、境內的空污，來自交通的占比是12.2%，工業大概是10.7%，電力的占比只有2.3%，而且主要是火力發電，這一點跟一般民眾的常識或直覺有非常大的落差，針對這一點我想要跟您請教，您的資料來源，是不是臺灣污染源排放清冊TEDS 12.0？"],["彭部長啓明：對，2021年的，這是我們環境部所委託的，蒐集全臺灣的各種排碳源排放之後，經由大氣擴散，算出來一年……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以您講的火力發電占空污的2.3%，其實指的只是PM2.5嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，PM2.5有包含自己本身直接排放的或是衍生的，例如SOx、NOx，都在裡面，是一個統合的結果。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是如果把其他的這些衍生物，如氮氧化物或硫氧化物加一加，並不只是2.3%。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，現在空污大概都直接看PM2.5，因為PM2.5包含原生的或是衍生的，例如SOx、NOx，或是ozone（臭氧），其實經過化學反應之後，也會造成微粒的增加，所以我們都直接看PM2.5。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，你所引用的資料，其實硫氧化物或氮氧化物的比率是蠻高的，它在火力發電占全國的污染比率分別是16.5%及40.4%，您說出2.3%這樣的數據，其實跟裡面所看到的40.4%，落差是很高的。我希望您還是要讓人民知道，第一，空污的來源不只是PM2.5，其實您剛剛也有講到其他東西，而這些全部都是很傷害人體健康的。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，基本上我們現在統一看的都是PM2.5，因為PM2.5包含它原生的微粒，例如燃煤電廠，它一定有微粒……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那您告訴我，未來5月17日之後，您最在意的這個PM2.5所占空污比率到底會不會升高？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們幾年前就有特別算過、評估過，如果核三的兩個機組關掉之後，大概只增加0.003微克。"],["陳委員菁徽：只增加？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：只增加？"],["彭部長啓明：但是我必須說那是年平均值，而不是某一天，因為有時候萬一大氣擴散不好，有時候某一些數值可能就相對會比較高，我剛剛說的是一個平均數值。"],["陳委員菁徽：你知道現在鄉民也非常會做這些資料分析，所以我希望未來你可以在PM2.5以外，把其他會影響人體健康的都一起算進來，好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：是，可以，但是我們現在看的都是PM2.5直接或間接衍生的污染物。"],["陳委員菁徽：最後一個問題，您剛剛提到的PFAS管理行動計畫，本席只想點出這個跟你們環境部以前的其他專案不同在哪裡？你們以前包括提出了污染鑑定、感染技術開發計畫、全國環境檢測、智慧轉型計畫及水質推動計畫等等，都會做好三件事情，第一，把總經費匡好，包括上次提出的化學韌性計畫也是一樣。第二，把責任分工規劃好，每一個機關每一年要花多少錢、做多少事情，還有績效、進度都制定好，像是總共要做幾年，然後每年至少要做到哪些事情等。可是你這個PFAS管理計畫從頭翻到尾是非常的空泛，第一，沒有執行年限；第二，沒有制定績效；第三，沒有總經費，也沒有分年期的經費。"],["謝署長燕儒：跟委員報告，PFAS本身就是斯德哥爾摩公約的一個衍生管理物質，其實我們從民國97年就有一個叫做持久性有機污染物的公約，這也是跨部會的，因為這個物質是一直不斷的發展，所以當初在擬定這個計畫的時候，就不會定下期限，但是它每年都有工作項目，每年檢討……"],["陳委員菁徽：對，你現在的考核管制就是每年只有一次，上一次我質詢的時候，才剛爆出有37座淨水廠包含PFAS之內的致癌物超標，但是飲用水條例都已經28年沒有修訂了，所以訂定績效是蠻重要的。"],["謝署長燕儒：是，跟委員報告，這個我們會來檢討，因為工作項目真的是跨了7個部會……"],["陳委員菁徽：太多，我知道。"],["謝署長燕儒：經費都是在原來的計畫裡去勻支，因為這個有機污染物種類很多，現在我們是希望以PFAS優先來做，可是優先做要抽出多少錢，我們必須再跟其他部會研商，這其實是有困難的，不過我們儘可能看能不能在期限……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，麻煩一個月給我兩個報告，第一個是廁所的韌性；第二個是PFAS管理計畫要如何改進？謝謝。"],["謝署長燕儒：好。"],["彭部長啓明：可以，謝謝委員。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳代）：謝謝陳菁徽委員。","接下來請涂權吉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":446,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","林淑芬","王正旭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","陳培瑜","楊曜","盧縣一","蔡易餘","廖偉翔"],"page_start":369,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長、經濟部、勞動部及教育部就「我國推動綠色轉型政策，相關人才培育發展\n與產業政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟\n部、農業部及教育部就「全氟及多氟烷基物質(PFAS)管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化\n物相關管理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢【專題報告綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1145001_00015"}}},{"id":"161312","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161312","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971bae98ab3e0c072b20d304acf7f12681bd3ddb152ca8cb0ed83d33e1e9d2057dc95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:45:19 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軍事維修的基地在亞洲其實是數一數二的曾經有這個專家透露說台灣是亞洲航空界維修如果說是排第二的話沒有人敢說是第一那這個部分你怎麼評論的本身現在是針對航空的部分我們有沒有可以有一些談判的籌碼之類的"},{"start":281.823,"end":297.018,"text":"美國、韓國、日本有軍艦,那我們航空的部分呢?就我的理解一直到現在為止,美國應該沒有將他的戰機所有這些最關鍵的,比如說發動機"},{"start":298.879,"end":326.776,"text":"或者是這些射控雷達等等交給任何一個國家來進行維修所以部分的話我們沒有著力點就對了就我的瞭解這個部分他還沒有釋出給任何一個國家就算一些零組件的話其實對他來講的話航空的部分他也覺得還是他一些最關鍵的剛剛講的比如說發動機裡面的這些相關模組化的一個組件或者是這些雷達的"},{"start":327.851,"end":350.606,"text":"這些組件他這個部分是列為他的應該是沒有交我的了解應該沒有交給世界上任何一個國家來進行OK那再來的話就是我們要提到就是剛剛結束的就是美國跟菲律賓所舉辦的這個兼並兼的這個演習那我們可以發現說這一兩年呢參加的夥伴國是越來越多那"},{"start":352.087,"end":376.775,"text":"這兩年我們也發現說其實他演習的範圍也都已經有在擴大那這一次我們還發現說他的演習地點甚至包含了鄰近台灣的禮宋島的這個北部那這也就是顯示了台海安全的這個重要性那過去呢我曾經有看過一篇報導就是說有個媒體就有透露說我們曾經很低調的參與了美國跟泰國的金眼鏡蛇演習那我們有沒有機會就是說來爭取"},{"start":378.616,"end":383.74,"text":"參與這個兼併間演習的這個或者是我們以這個觀察員的身份來參加這個兼併間的演習我們有機會嗎請問這個部分委員我覺得我沒有辦法在這裡跟委員做這個無法公開說明"},{"start":395.931,"end":421.881,"text":"委員如果想要了解我們私下再跟委員做事OK 了解這個沒有辦法在這裡公開說明那當然我們希望說國防部呢可以強化區域之間的這個合作我們跟鄰國可以展開一些對話那我們知道說南海其實是美中很禁足的一個關鍵所以我們希望說國防部再強化南方的空防跟治海這個能力方面我們可以逐步來做加強OK 好 以上謝謝是 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":204,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時45分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：有請顧部長，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：是，羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長早。部長，在上個月的時候，根據日經新聞的報導，因為中國現在的造船能力遠遠超過美國，所以美國海軍部長就要求日本對美造船業提供協助。目前日本是全球第三大的造船國，所以在對川普政府的關稅談判當中，日本準備要以這個造船牌來跟美國做關稅談判。也就是說，他可能會以技術支援或是協助造新船的籌碼作為談判的條件；然後在安保合作方面，日本也正在推行維修美軍船艦的措施，也就是部署在亞洲周邊的美國艦艇能夠減少返回美國進行維修的時間，連維修的部分也會成為這次關稅談判的重點。","我想請問部長，本席為什麼要這麼說？以臺灣來講，我們在軍用品、軍產品這部分，有沒有類似日本這樣子的談判籌碼，請問部長？"],["顧部長立雄：我只能說迄今為止，我們承修的標的還是本部所屬的這些武器裝備項目，還沒有國外軍艦的維修品項。"],["羅委員美玲：軍艦的部分我們目前當然還沒有，但我要提的就是，後面我又有看到一份報導，現在連維修的部分都會作為他們這次關稅談判的一個條件。我有看過一些資料，臺灣位處第一島鏈，像過去韓戰也好、越戰的時候，我們都是美國重要的維修中繼站，像漢翔公司在2022年的時候，也在臺中成立了F-16戰機的後勤維修中心，這也是F-16製造廠商洛克希德馬丁公司在亞洲唯一授權設立的後勤維修中心，而且維修中心現在已經在研發生產部分戰機的零組件。所以本席在想，當然這個部分也可以省下戰機送回美國維修的成本。我想請問一下，這部分有可能成為我們跟美軍談判關稅的籌碼之一嗎？有可能嗎？因為看到日本的例子，我想現在正在進行關稅談判，這部分會是嗎？有沒有可能？"],["顧部長立雄：我想應該是這樣講，假設軍購到美系的裝備，我們都希望有一定的自主維修量能，F-16因為我們現有的Block 20就有141架，我們還要再進來66架Block 70的F-16，所以我想我們要建立一定的自主維修能量，這是我們所期待的。當然船艦這個部分……"],["羅委員美玲：不是船艦，我們是屬於航空的部分，軍艦是日本的部分，我現在講的是航空的部分。"],["顧部長立雄：現在就美方來看的話，他現在是找日本跟韓國進行這樣子的……"],["羅委員美玲：是，軍艦的部分是，我是講航空維修的部分。"],["顧部長立雄：航空維修的部分如你現在所提，我們現在應該是說，我們不只是F-16要逐步建立更高的自主維修能量，當然其他……"],["羅委員美玲：我們目前只能做到自主維修的部分嗎？部長，你知道嘛，我們臺灣的軍事維修基地在亞洲其實是數一數二的，曾經有專家透露，臺灣在亞洲航空界維修如果排第二的話，沒有人敢說是第一，這個部分你怎麼評論呢？本席現在是針對航空的部分，我們可不可以有一些談判的籌碼之類的？美國、韓國、日本有軍艦，那我們航空的部分呢？"],["顧部長立雄：就我的理解，一直到現在為止，美國應該沒有將戰機這些最關鍵的，比如說發動機，或者是射控雷達等等，交給任何一個國家。"],["羅委員美玲：是，所以這部分我們沒有著力點就對了？"],["顧部長立雄：就我的了解，這個部分還沒有釋出給任何一個國家。"],["羅委員美玲：就算一些零組件，其實對他們來講，航空的部分，他也覺得還是……"],["顧部長立雄：一些最關鍵的，剛剛講的，比如說發動機裡面相關模組化的組件，或者是這些雷達的組件，這個部分是列為他的……就我的了解，應該是沒有交給世界上任何一個國家進行。"],["羅委員美玲：OK！再來就是我們要提到剛剛結束的美國跟菲律賓所舉辦的肩並肩演習，我們可以發現這一、兩年參加的夥伴國越來越多，這兩年我們也發現演習的範圍都已經有在擴大，這一次我們還發現演習地點甚至包含了鄰近臺灣的呂宋島北部，這也就顯示了臺海安全的重要性。過去我曾經看過一篇報導，有個媒體透露我們曾經很低調的參與了美國跟泰國的金眼鏡蛇演習，那我們有沒有機會爭取參與肩並肩演習，或者是我們以觀察員的身分來參加這個肩並肩演習？我們有機會嗎？請問這個部分。"],["顧部長立雄：委員，我覺得我沒有辦法在這裡跟委員說明。"],["羅委員美玲：這個無法公開說明？"],["顧部長立雄：委員如果想要了解，我們私下再跟委員說明。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，了解，這個沒有辦法在這裡公開說明。當然我們希望國防部可以強化區域之間的合作，我們跟鄰國可以展開一些對話。我們知道南海是美中競逐的一個關鍵，所以我們希望國防部在強化南方空防跟制海能力這方面可以逐步加強。以上，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅美玲委員。","接下來有請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":40,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-13","speakers":["沈伯洋","陳俊宇","徐巧芯","羅美玲","林楚茵","陳冠廷","王定宇","林憶君","王鴻薇","黃國昌","陳永康","馬文君","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，國防部主管預算凍結案等54案","agenda_id":"1144901_00001"}}},{"id":"161311","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161311","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4f2e91488ef6971b2b7b02714e002109ebe85dec65e1b6403ddb152ca8cb0ed81a911ee759332f825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:34:55 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麼時候能夠把行政院的版本送出來理由我剛剛有報告過那這個行政院現在正在作業當中我相信應該很快很快就會送出來您去年的時候5月23打選的時候也講說去年底要有版本我有完成我的承諾速發部"},{"start":170.049,"end":191.791,"text":"市長是,就如剛才主委所說,今年二月把這個立法推動交給本部那相關的一些文字的調整我們已經完成了,但是因為就像委員所說我們現在還會有什麼樣的流程要走,還是我們還要不要再我必須要經過行政院院會審議是,沒有錯,在經過行政院院會審議的時候,速發部送出版本了嗎?"},{"start":192.712,"end":216.986,"text":"這個版本現在已經在行政院已經在行政院了那預計什麼時候能夠出來還要不要遵循外界的意見還是已經有歸納相關了我們會盡量談納大家的意見包括今天委員在委員會的指教那行政院審議的這個流程就不是我這邊能夠回答但是我們相信就是剛剛主委所說的行政院會盡量盡快完成這個程序送請到大院來審議"},{"start":217.486,"end":232.876,"text":"但是可以push跟可以追蹤嘛因為這是國人大家所關心而且各部會大家也都需要這個基本法完之後能夠再來有相關的作業法還有相關的細則 對不對好 主委 那我再請教讓外界比較"},{"start":234.704,"end":261.669,"text":"擔憂的地方啊庶發部成立不到三年但是施政滿意民調其實一直敬佩莫助而且未來有可能是會由庶產署這邊來負責變成是三級機關那很多人講是說其實國科會之前也已經研究了一兩年的時間推動一兩年的時間那現在這個基本法變成是庶發部未來會不會變成是說沒有辦法讓其他部會配合的一個情況"},{"start":262.725,"end":280.439,"text":"不會 我們在行政院你自己怎麼看 如果說國科會跟速發部最大的一個分歧點在哪裡哪一個主管機關對於我們整體的發展會是比較有幫助國科會跟速發部沒有分歧我們是一起在協調 在努力但是現在變成是主管機關就從國科會變速發部了不是嗎"},{"start":282.436,"end":296.708,"text":"未來這個法令的解釋機關會在速發部因為將來在施政的部分直接接觸到人民接觸到產業接觸到各機關團體的主要是速發部在施政的範圍內是嗎"},{"start":298.709,"end":314.714,"text":"本席就講了就是說國人對於過去三年成立的速發部其實是說實在話不是我要把大家撈開我也知道有很多同仁其實是很用心很努力但是很多東西其實速發部過去真的讓國人很難信任譬如說打仗"},{"start":315.974,"end":341.85,"text":"AI現在主委我相信你也可以認同AI的科技日新月異的情況很多的詐騙其實跟AI息息相關那我才上兩個禮拜前詢問說速發部到底現在內政部報速發部我們開發這些社群媒體平台了有沒有結果給我回答居然講是說有廣告不實的情況啦15折現在還在做研議啊我可不可以再請教一下市長來市長"},{"start":345.189,"end":371.056,"text":"4月25號你們跟我回覆當天本來是另外一位次長嘛我在詢答的時候另外一位次長跟我講說內政部沒有送來他自己回答是這樣子那後來改口了書面報告給我的是有啦4月25號有15則廣告出資者不明所以送行政院行政院5月1號的時候交速發部速發部目前處理的狀況是什麼"},{"start":372.978,"end":399.448,"text":"很抱歉 這部分當然不是我督導範圍我所知的跟委員差不多一樣就是說這個經過行政院跨部會審查是有一部分的案件還需要進行調查好 部分案件還需要進行調查那現在5月13號了所以從4月25號到5月13號我姑且即便國人大家想一下 聽一下 看一下姑且即便相信說這個只有15個是你目前知道說出資不明的類似詐騙廣告"},{"start":402.628,"end":425.654,"text":"從425報行政院行政院5月1號交速發布速發布到5月13號了都還沒有相關的作業市長也好 部長也好 主委也好可不可以想一下一個詐騙廣告在那個社群媒體平台上面一天會有多少人看到會有多少國人受騙會有多少詐騙金額一個月我們的統計是將近百億的詐騙金額"},{"start":427.31,"end":448.096,"text":"結果15則不明的廣告出資者一個月過去了到目前為止都還在踢皮球也還沒有找Meta來談或是還是讓Meta陳述意見中那一個月的時間多這一個月多放任了有多少的詐騙嬰兒受害受害者嬰兒受害主委 市長"},{"start":457.529,"end":486.044,"text":"這就是我們一直所關心的也擔憂的就是說我們當成立一個速發部大家國人對你們高度期待然後結果你們現在一個基本法也是互相來推然後就現在詐騙的廣告我們去年成立了打詐釋法通過打詐釋法結果給你們工具到現在一個月即便是這個更不要想內政部講說他已經下架三萬八千則的詐騙廣告但是還有出資者不明的也沒有辦法處理"},{"start":487.874,"end":504.6,"text":"跟我們報告未來會是這樣子牛步嗎跟我們報告我們沒有這個呼啼啤酒的問題我們因為要開罰必須要有法律的依據要有證據所以現在這個程序都在進行當中我現在沒有講說開罰不需要證據沒有錯但是我只是說光這一個月的時間"},{"start":506.281,"end":534.58,"text":"如果說我們面對的樣體群體那麼的明顯不要讓外界覺得是說你們不敢打老虎只敢對個人只敢對一些小用戶真正社群媒體平台Meta也好 YouTube也好 Google也好國際公司我知道啊我自己也是使用者啊但如果說他們獲利或是賺錢的來源是來自於詐騙集團那我們怎麼可能放任讓他們繼續賺錢呢"},{"start":537.661,"end":553.379,"text":"到目前為止有沒有開罰過我們現在正在進行調查進行調查好所以就是沒有開罰來最後我想請教一下主委或是次長我們還是討論一下AI基本法我覺得有一個部分也大家所關心的就是隱私的問題"},{"start":554.44,"end":568.956,"text":"我不知道主委或次長有沒有最近看到諸葛亮已故藝人他有一個演出最近好像前天的一個演出是他用虛擬的影像結合AI變成是他跟現場的藝人來做一個對話"},{"start":570.177,"end":584.831,"text":"而現在的技術已經成熟到他的肢體 條媒 口氣 話語都跟諸葛亮生前是一模一樣幾乎可以講就好像是他拍的我不知道有沒有看到 諸葛亮"},{"start":588.26,"end":603.308,"text":"我沒有看到但是這的確技術已經進步到這個階段對 那這某種程度上如果說他用在正面當然因為他是一個公開演出所以說他有獲得可能他的後人的一個授權或是同意但另外一個方面如果說他用在犯罪上這就是身為技術"},{"start":604.469,"end":624.427,"text":"可以把它給想像成身為技術或是說現在的這個技術虛擬已經成熟到是幾乎辨別不出來那就分別兩個問題當然身為技術有身為技術之前我們討論的刑法但另外一個部分不管是我們現在講的是說之前的這個GPT的那個"},{"start":626.688,"end":651.114,"text":"畫風我們用照片可以轉換成什麼迪士尼風這個卡通風動漫風等等的部分那可能也會有這個AI侵權的一個疑慮或者是現在用這個身為技術來用後人那即便是我仿造這個已故的人士或者是說別人即便是有後代的授權但是有沒有可能還是會有侵權的狀況"},{"start":652.762,"end":671.637,"text":"要講什麼內容或是他要做什麼樣的一個甚至如果說大家覺得反應很好或是說大家真的很懷念朱大哥我自己也覺得說他的主持風格非常好但如果說懷念朱大哥而未來如果說他用這個深為記就是用他的這個影像來去做產品代言行不行"},{"start":675.579,"end":689.966,"text":"這個我覺得都是我們目前法律沒有考慮到但是技術上做得到所以我們定力基本法以及未來的作用法都應該要去考慮的是沒有錯委員講到的是非常重要一個重點就是AI訓練的結果產出必須不能夠侵害智慧產權"},{"start":690.746,"end":713.298,"text":"因為智慧財產權所謂的模仿跟真正的侵害智慧財產權其實是有個案上的差距的那舉例來說他如果單純是模仿或者是某一種畫風那可能這個在成立上面會有一些不太一樣的地方但是他如果以諸葛亮的名義來做的話那就會侵害他的姓名或是肖像權的使用那這個部分其實智慧財產權也不斷在演進當中"},{"start":715.399,"end":738.345,"text":"那我們也會跟經濟部智慧局保持這個密切的聯繫那相關的個案那我相信這個包括智慧財產權也好或是法院也好都是在國際上面都是非常尖端的案例是需要持續來觀察嗎就是因為是尖端案例但已經發生了所以本席才會提出來我覺得這跟現在基本法以及未來我們各部會要訂立作用法的部分有很大的息息相關"},{"start":739.065,"end":754.527,"text":"那還有基本法到底什麼時候出來不確定但是我們各委員會的部門各委員會的版本已經在這邊了我們期待當然有行政院的版本大家可以共同來討論豬跳審查但如果說沒有的話我們沒有辦法繼續等下去那以及本席現在就提出來就說"},{"start":755.228,"end":778.829,"text":"未來像針對這個部分其實應該是各部會業務全責沒有錯您剛才提到說經濟部但是數位運用上面來講我覺得數發部既然是主管機關還是要有一定的一個主導性跟想法我剛就說嘛如果說朱大哥這個事情後人覺得說很好然後大家反應很熱烈他能不能繼續接代言商業利益 商業行為"},{"start":779.943,"end":783.66,"text":"那商業行為譬如說他用虛擬的影像講說這個產品很棒"},{"start":785.441,"end":811.666,"text":"那是他的後人授權決定他後人可能有一些商業的一個合約但是這樣子會不會有一些道德上的一個狀況我覺得不只是這個就是眼神您懂我意思嗎因為這個是一連串我們應該要思考我相信應該也有國外的案例甚至我們也查到美國的案例有美國法庭上面司法在做法庭的一個出庭陳述的時候他就讓"},{"start":812.93,"end":835.348,"text":"被槍殺身亡者他運用AI的還原讓他在法庭上面做意見陳述當然講的內容可能他生前有講過這樣的概念但是不是他當下之後還會講這樣的內容不得而知因為他可能人已經離開了可是這樣子的一個案件這樣的一個案例未來會不會在台灣發生"},{"start":836.858,"end":859.363,"text":"這是證據力的問題對不對還有本席之前也有提過譬如說像現在新聞也有很多的新聞畫面之前有一個新聞是說用AI合成或是說虛擬地震的影片那我們NCC也做開發但是現在也有很多新聞是沒有拍到的畫面他用AI影片來去做生成"},{"start":860.123,"end":888.835,"text":"那是不是應該要加注警語以及要怎麼樣加注警語讓民眾知道說這一段是AI生成影片哪一段是真的採訪影片這一些部分可能都是我們已經都在接受到但是法令還沒有跟上的部分據我所知NCC已經訂定了指引就如委員所說其實透明的義務是最基本的所以再拉回來 主委比較笑多了啦主委 本席語重心長啦"},{"start":890.197,"end":913.209,"text":"過去一年都在教育文化委員會國科會我們很多專業可以共同討論AI人工智慧基本法確實是台灣不能落後於世界基本法也只是第一步第二步相關的部會的一個溝通那既然主委已經在這個領域上面努力了一整年的時間了即便是現在主管機關是速發部但我相信國科會的角色也很重要"},{"start":913.829,"end":922.519,"text":"能夠趕快push出來行政院的版本讓我們可以充分的討論進一步的能夠來完成立法我覺得這才是我們大家共同關心的謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":112,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時35分）謝謝主席。麻煩請吳主委、數發部葉次長。"],["主席：請官員備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委好。我先延續剛剛羅委員的議題。主委知不知道剛剛羅委員主要問的是什麼樣的問題？"],["吳主任委員誠文：他重視的是人才培育。有關人才培育，包含在實戰場合應用……"],["洪委員孟楷：還有更之前提到的心理諮商部分。"],["吳主任委員誠文：心理諮商也需要培養心理諮商人才，但我們要應用AI，不能讓AI獨立去做……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，我想問題可能沒有那麼明確。最近有新聞提到，AI比朋友更懂你，因為現在年輕人改用app聊天，你有沒有看到這個新聞？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有看到這則新聞？你知道哪一款app讓現在的年輕人很愛用來聊天？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不曉得。"],["洪委員孟楷：不知道？在今年5月3號有新聞提到和ChatGPT聊天，現在有很多年輕人喜歡和ChatGPT聊天，因為AI可以給很多的情緒價值，某種程度上就衍生出剛剛羅委員所講的，很多的年輕人、學生，甚至未成年人在遇到一些心理因素、感情因素，覺得沒有地方可以傾訴時，就找AI來聊天。至於AI所提供的資料正確與否？有沒有心理諮商的專業？這是另外一個範疇，這也是我們認為人工智慧基本法非常重要的原因所在！訂立基本法之後未來才有作用法及相關範圍可規範，所以衛福部也要納進來，大家共同討論。","去年5月23日您首次來教育及文化委員會，那時候最多人問的議題是什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：AI基本法是其中一個。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，就是AI基本法什麼時候要出來？之前吳宗憲委員也講到，那時候歐盟才剛通過基本法草案，但一年過去，從去年5月23日到現在5月14日，快一年時間了，我們還在空中樓閣！當然，國科會有努力，並於去年10月送出案子，但行政院突然在今年2月轉交數發部，沒有講任何理由，不管是國科會還是數發部。請問主委，行政院版本到底什麼時候能夠送出來？"],["吳主任委員誠文：理由我剛剛有報告過，行政院現在正在作業當中，我相信應該很快就會送出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：您在去年5月23日答詢時說去年底會有版本……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我有完成我的承諾……"],["洪委員孟楷：你有完成你的承諾？請教數發部次長。"],["葉次長寧：如同剛才主委所說，今年2月行政院將相關的立法推動工作交給本部，我們也完成一些相關的文字調整。就像委員所說，其實……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在到底還有什麼流程要走？還是我們還要……"],["葉次長寧：我們必須要經過行政院院會審議通過之後才能夠……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，沒有錯。在行政院院會審議前，數發部送出版本了嗎？"],["葉次長寧：版本現在已經在行政院。"],["洪委員孟楷：已經在行政院？預計什麼時候能夠送出來？還要不要徵詢外界的意見？還是已經歸納相關意見了？"],["葉次長寧：我們會儘量含納大家的意見，包括今天委員在委員會的指教，至於行政院審議的流程就不是我所能回答的。但相信如同剛才主委所說，行政院會儘快完成程序，送請大院審議。"],["洪委員孟楷：還是可以push跟追蹤，畢竟這是國人、大家所關心的，而且各部會也都需要這個基本法，之後才能有相關的作用法與細則，對不對？","主委，我再請教，現在外界比較擔憂的地方是，數發部成立不到三年，但施政滿意民調卻一直敬陪末座。這項工作未來可能由數產署負責，甚至變成三級機關，不過很多人說其實國科會之前已經研究一、兩年時間，推動一、兩年時間了，現在基本法變成數發部主管，這樣未來會不會讓其他部會無法配合？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不會，我們在行政院……"],["洪委員孟楷：你自己怎麼看？國科會跟數發部最大的分歧點在哪裡？哪一個主管機關對於整體發展比較有幫助？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會跟數發部沒有分歧，我們一起協調、一起努力……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在的主管機關已經從國科會變成數發部了，不是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：未來法令的解釋機關在數發部，因為將來的施政需要直接接觸人民、接觸產業、接觸各機關團體，這些主要是數發部的施政範圍……"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！那剛剛本席就講了，國人對於過去3年成立的數發部其實是不甚滿意，說實在話，不是我要給大家漏氣，我也知道有很多同仁是很用心、很努力，但是很多東西其實數發部過去真的讓國人很難信任。譬如打詐，主委，我相信你也可以認同，AI科技日新月異的情況下，很多詐騙其實都跟AI息息相關。我才在兩個禮拜前詢問數發部，現在內政部報數發部、我們開罰這些社群媒體平臺，到底有沒有？結果給我回答的居然是說，有廣告不實的情況15則，現在還在做研議。","我可不可以再請教一下次長？次長，4月25號你們給我的回復，當天本來是另外一位次長，我在詢答的時候，另外一位次長跟我說內政部沒有送來，他自己的回答是這樣子。後來改口了，書面報告給我的是有啦！4月25號有15則廣告出資者不明，所以送行政院，行政院5月1號交數發部。數發部目前處理的狀況是什麼？"],["葉次長寧：很抱歉，這個部分當然不是我的督導範圍，我所知的跟委員差不多是一樣，就是這個經過行政院跨部會審查，是有一部分的案件還需要進行調查。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，部分案件還需要進行調查，那現在5月13號了，所以從4月25號到5月13號，國人大家想一下、聽一下、看一下，姑且、即便相信說只有15個是你目前知道的出資不明的類似詐騙廣告，從425報行政院、行政院5月1號交數發部、數發部到5月13號了都還沒有相關的作業。次長也好，主委也好，可不可以想一下，一個詐騙廣告在那個社群媒體平臺上面一天會有多少人看到、會有多少國人受騙、會有多少詐騙金額？一個月我們的統計是將近百億詐騙金額，結果15則不明的廣告出資者，1個月過去了，到目前為止都還在踢皮球，也還沒有找Meta來談，還是讓Meta陳述意見中，那一個月的時間，多這一個月多放任了多少的詐騙，有多少受害者因而受害！主委、次長，這就是我們一直所關心的也擔憂的，當成立了一個數發部，國人大家對你們高度期待，結果你們現在一個基本法也是互相推，然後現在詐騙的廣告，我們去年通過打詐四法，結果給你們工具了，到現在，1個月了，即便是這個，更不要講內政部說他已經下架3萬8,000則詐騙廣告，但還有出資者不明的也沒有辦法處理，未來會是這樣子牛步嗎？"],["葉次長寧：跟委員報告，我們沒有互踢皮球的問題，我們是因為要開罰必須要有法律的依據、要證據，所以現在這個程序都在進行當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在沒有講開罰不需要證據，沒有錯，但我指的是，光這1個月的時間，如果我們面對的樣體、群體那麼明顯，不要讓外界覺得你們不敢打老虎，只敢對個人、只敢對一些小用戶，真正是社群媒體平臺的Meta也好，YouTube也好，Google也好，國際公司我知道，我自己也是使用者啊！但如果他們獲利或賺錢的來源是來自於詐騙集團，那我們怎麼可能放任讓他們繼續賺錢？"],["葉次長寧：我們沒有放任……"],["洪委員孟楷：到目前為止有沒有開罰過？"],["葉次長寧：我們現在正在進行調查。"],["洪委員孟楷：進行調查，所以就是沒有開罰。","最後我想請教一下，主委或次長，我們還是討論一下AI基本法，我覺得有一個部分也是大家所關心的，就是隱私的問題。我不知道主委或次長最近有沒有看到，已故藝人豬哥亮有一個演出，最近的好像是前天的一個演出，用虛擬影像結合AI，變成是他跟現場的藝人對話。現在的技術已經成熟到他肢體上的挑眉、口氣、話語都跟豬哥亮生前一模一樣，幾乎可以講就好像是他拍的，我不知道你有沒有看到？主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我沒有看到，但是的確技術已經進步到這個階段。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，某種程度上，如果它用在正面上，當然因為它是一個公開演出，所以有獲得可能他後人的授權或同意，但另外一方面，如果它用在犯罪上，這就是深偽技術，可以把它想像成是深偽技術，或者說現在這個技術、虛擬已經成熟到是幾乎辨別不出來。那就分別有兩個問題，當然就深偽技術，之前我們討論了刑法，但另外一個部分，不管是我們講的，之前GPT的畫風，我們用照片可以轉換成什麼迪士尼風、卡通風、動漫風等等的部分，可能也會有AI侵權的疑慮，或者是現在用深偽技術，我仿照已故人士或者是別人，即便有後代的授權，但有沒有可能還是會有侵權的狀況？他要講什麼內容或是他要做什麼樣的動作，甚至如果大家的反應很好，或是大家真的很懷念豬大哥，我自己也覺得他的主持風格非常好，但懷念豬大哥，而未來如果用他的影像來做產品代言，行不行？這個我覺得都是我們目前法令沒有考慮到，但是技術上做得到，所以我們訂立基本法以及未來的作用法都應該要去考慮，對不對？"],["葉次長寧：是，沒有錯，委員講到的是非常重要的一個重點，就是AI訓練的結果產出必須不能夠侵害智慧財產權，所謂的模仿跟真正的侵害智慧財產權其實是有個案上的差距。舉例來說，他如果單純是模仿或者是某一種畫風，可能這個在成立上面會有一些不太一樣的地方，但是他如果以豬哥亮的名義來做的話，那就會侵害他的姓名或肖像權的使用。這個部分其實智慧財產權也不斷在演進當中，那我們也會跟經濟部智慧財產局保持密切聯繫，相關的個案，我相信包括智慧財產局來的也好，或是法院來的也好，在國際上面都是非常尖端的案例，是需要持續觀察、努力的。"],["洪委員孟楷：就因為是尖端案例，但已經發生了，所以本席才會提出來，我覺得這跟現在基本法以及未來各部會要訂立作用法的部分非常息息相關。還有基本法到底什麼時候出來？不確定，但是各委員的版本已經在這邊了，當然我們期待有行政院的版本，大家可以共同討論逐條審查，但如果沒有的話，我們也沒有辦法繼續等下去。以及本席現在就提出來，未來像針對這個部分，其實應該是各部會業務權責，沒有錯，您剛才也提到經濟部，但數位運用上面來講，我覺得數發部既然是主管機關，還是要有一定的主導性跟想法。我剛剛就說，如果豬大哥這個是後人覺得很好，然後大家的反應很熱烈，他能不能繼續接代言？商業利益、商業行為。那商業行為，譬如他用虛擬影像講這個產品很棒，那是他的後人授權決定，他後人可能有一些商業合約，但這樣子會不會有一些道德上的狀況？我覺得不只是這個，就是衍生，您懂我的意思嗎？"],["葉次長寧：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為這個是一連串我們應該要思考的，我相信應該也有國外的案例，甚至我們也查到美國的案例，美國法庭上面在做出庭陳述的時候，他就讓被槍殺身亡者，運用AI還原讓他在法庭上面做意見陳述，當然講的內容，可能他生前有講過這樣的概念，但是不是他當下之後還會講這樣的內容不得而知，因為他人已經離開了。可是這樣子的一個案例，未來會不會在臺灣發生？"],["葉次長寧：這是證據力的問題，在談刑事訴訟法。"],["洪委員孟楷：對不對？還有本席之前也提過，譬如像現在也有很多的新聞畫面，之前有一個新聞是用AI合成或虛擬地震的影片，NCC也開罰，但現在也有很多新聞是沒有拍到的畫面他用AI影片去生成，那是不是應該要加註警語，以及要怎麼樣加註警語讓民眾知道這一段是AI生成影片、哪一段是真的採訪影片？這一些可能是我們已經都接受到了，但是法令還沒有跟上的部分。"],["葉次長寧：據我所知，NCC已經訂定了指引，就如委員所說的，其實透明的義務是最基本的。"],["洪委員孟楷：再拉回來，主委，稍微笑一下啦！本席語重心長，過去1年都在教育及文化委員會，對國科會，我們就很多專業可以共同討論，AI人工智慧基本法，確實臺灣不能落後於世界，基本法也只是第一步，第二步是相關部會的溝通，既然主委已經在這個領域上面努力了一整年的時間，即便現在主管機關是數發部，我相信國科會的角色也很重要，能夠趕快push出來行政院的版本，讓我們可以充分討論，進一步完成立法，這才是我們大家共同關心的。謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員質詢。官員請回座。","接下來請柯志恩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-22,23-1","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","吳宗憲","張嘉郡","洪孟楷","柯志恩","李昆澤","林俊憲","陳素月","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","葉元之","蔡其昌","劉書彬","萬美玲","張雅琳","郭昱晴","何欣純","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","游顥","徐富癸","吳沛憶","謝龍介","楊瓊瓔","范雲","林沛祥","邱若華","廖先翔","許宇甄","邱志偉"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-05-14"],"gazette_id":"1144802","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144802_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員葛如鈞等37人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；二、審查委員邱若華等 17 人擬具\n「人工智慧基本法草案」案；三、審查委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；四、\n審查委員萬美玲等18人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；五、審查委員許宇甄等20人擬具「人工\n智慧基本法草案」案；六、審查委員張嘉郡等21人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案；七、審查委\n員林倩綺等23人擬具「人工智慧基本法草案」案 （僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1144802_00004"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}