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陳委員第三位是林業錦 林委員介紹官員 勞動部部長 洪森翰謝謝勞動力發展署署長 黃寧玉謝謝勞工保險局局長 白立珍謝謝還有勞動基金應用局局長 蘇玉清謝謝職業安全衛生署署長 林立堂"},{"start":1827.173,"end":1834.016,"text":"勞動及職業安全衛生研究所代理所長陳育維綜合歸要師師長王厚誠勞動關係師師長王厚維勞動保險師師長陳美女勞動福祉退休師師長謝謙倩勞動條件及就業評理師師長黃維生勞動房屋師"},{"start":1856.078,"end":1881.877,"text":"施長傅費芝謝謝藝術處處長丁玉珍人事處處長姜碧玲鄭榮市處長周志信謝謝會計處處長林美信還有行政院主計總處公務預算處檢任視察陳淑萍好謝謝然後現在處理報告事項計59案請一併宣讀"},{"start":1886.656,"end":1904.007,"text":"處理一四年度中央政府總預算決議有關勞動部主管預算凍結報告案五十九案一勞動部勞動基金運用局決議一第二幕向下基金業務支援考及控管預算凍結一萬元書面報告二勞動部新增決議五第一幕向下研議勞工保險財務及就業保險業務預算凍結十億元報告三"},{"start":1908.45,"end":1917.349,"text":"勞動部新增決議九第二目一般行政預算凍結五千萬書面報告四勞動部新增決議十一第二目向下基本行政工作維持預算凍結百分之"},{"start":1919.367,"end":1931.435,"text":"30 書面報告5 勞動部新增決議23 第三目向下策劃政策推廣預算凍結10% 書面報告6勞動部新增決議25 第四目向下促進工會組織自由化預算凍結10% 書面報告7 勞動部職業安全衛生署新增決議86 第三目職業安全衛生業務預算凍結3000萬 書面報告8 勞動部勞動力發展署及所署新增決議98 一般行政預算凍結20% 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第五幕向下推動職工福利改善勞工生活預算凍結五萬元書面報告策劃勞工服務預算凍結二十萬書面報告勞動基金監理預算凍結五萬元書面報告因貿易自由化提升勞工福祉預算凍結五萬元書面報告"},{"start":2034.724,"end":2051.238,"text":"二十四勞動部決議十九第六目勞動條件及就業平等業務預算凍結二百萬書面報告二十五勞動部決議二十第六目勞動條件及就業平等業務預算凍結五十萬書面報告二十六勞動部決議二十一第七目勞動法務業務預算凍結十萬元書面報告二十七勞動部勞工保險"},{"start":2055.305,"end":2081.97,"text":"局決議一第一幕一般行政預算凍結一千萬書面報告二十八勞動部勞工保險局決議三第二幕保險業務預算凍結一百萬書面報告二十九勞動部勞工保險局決議四第二幕向下業務費預算凍結百分之五書面報告三十勞動部勞工保險局決議五第二幕向下勞工保險業務預算凍結百分之十書面報告三十一勞動部勞動力發展暑期所屬決議一勞動力發展暑期所屬預算凍結一百萬書面報告"},{"start":2083.49,"end":2097.582,"text":"三十二 勞動部勞動力發展署及所屬決議二第一幕一般行政預算凍結三百萬書面報告三十三 勞動部勞動力發展署及所屬決議三第一幕一般行政預算凍結三百萬書面報告三十四至三十七 勞動部"},{"start":2099.4,"end":2121.418,"text":"劳动力发展署及所属决议4568第二幕劳动力发展业务预算冻结20万书面报告劳动力发展业务预算冻结200万书面报告向下综合规划预算冻结50万书面报告向下推展职业训练发展业务预算冻结10%书面报告38-43劳动部劳动力发展署及所属决议10 11 12 13 14 15"},{"start":2124.16,"end":2137.05,"text":"第三目分署管理預算凍結100萬書面報告預算凍結10萬元書面報告向下北基宜花金馬分署管理預算凍結100萬書面報告向下水電費預算凍結10%書面報告向下業務費預算凍結100萬書面報告向下水電費預算凍結10%書面報告44勞動部職業安全衛生署決議1職業安全衛生署預算凍結100萬書面報告45職業安全衛生署決議2第三目"},{"start":2153.643,"end":2160.388,"text":"職業安全業務衛生安全業務預算凍結50萬書面報告46-48勞動部職業安全衛生署決議345第二幕一般行政預算凍結200萬書面報告向下水電費預算凍結10%書面報告向下特別費預算凍結10%書面報告49-56勞動部職業安全衛生署"},{"start":2177.192,"end":2202.035,"text":"決議六八九十十一十二十三十四第三幕向下一單數費預算凍結百分之十書面報告向下健全職業安全衛生管理及制度預算凍結一百萬書面報告向下建構職場安全及推動防災措施預算凍結百萬書面報告向下強化職業安全衛生與推動勞工健康服務預算凍結五十萬書面報告向下測定職災勞工保險制度預算凍結十萬元書面報告"},{"start":2205.599,"end":2214.541,"text":"職業安全衛生業務預算凍結50萬書面報告向下獎補助費預算凍結50萬書面報告職業安全衛生業務預算凍結50萬書面報告57勞動部勞動及職業安全衛生研究所決議1勞動及職業安全衛生研究所預算凍結100萬書面報告58勞動部勞動及職業安全衛生研究所決議3第二目向下業務費預算凍結50萬書面報告59"},{"start":2231.245,"end":2247.039,"text":"勞動部勞動及職業安全衛生研究所決議是第二幕上下結合科技掌握職業衛生危害開發控制技術以降低暴露風險預算凍結100萬書面報告宣讀完畢好有關勞動部主管預算凍結報告案第59案有異議有異議"},{"start":2258.74,"end":2263.064,"text":"針對哪幾案有異請向主席來提出以進行討論事項時我們再並處理從報告案移到這個討論案麻煩主席謝謝121013到22243134"},{"start":2287.908,"end":2293.611,"text":"35 37到3840到43我先把它念完 45 47 51 52 54到56我重來一遍 謝謝主席1 2 13到22"},{"start":2315.009,"end":2321.735,"text":"2431343537到3840到434547515254到56麻煩主席同意我們將這個報告事項轉移到討論事項 謝謝你們要不要先溝通"},{"start":2349.848,"end":2356.13,"text":"是不是休息個十分鐘夠吧先跟陳昭志委員這邊做一個溝通我們等一下再繼續處理,謝謝"},{"start":3000.848,"end":3022.921,"text":"好 休息時間到委員會在這邊做一個說明跟報告剛剛陳昭志委員是有提出有幾案要原本這個是在報告事項裡面因為院會交賽是在報告事項所以我們沒有辦法直接就移到這個討論事項但是我們先來做這樣處理就是說剛剛陳昭志委員有提出的第一案 第二案 第十案13到22 24 31 34 35 37至3840至43 45 47 51 52"},{"start":3031.128,"end":3045.217,"text":"54至56這些案我們就先暫時保留好不好其他我們就均同意動之並提報院會好那我們接下來就請洪部長來做報告"},{"start":3063.944,"end":3074.551,"text":"先保留,等一下讓部長有時間再跟他們溝通一下主席不好意思,您可以明確講保留的意思嗎?"},{"start":3078.773,"end":3107.206,"text":"我剛剛有特別說明因為定規交下來是把它列在報告事項裡面那基本上我們要把它挪到討論事項基本上是也要徵詢大家的意見會變成這樣那我先把它暫停保留讓部長把報告結束完之後是不是大家還有討論私底下協商的空間就請陳委員這邊來做一個審慎的定奪那就不需要不需要下面"},{"start":3108.909,"end":3124.256,"text":"你懂我意思吧我這樣處理應該是比較和緩啦我們希望能有發言的機會就是留下會議紀錄的機會發言一定會在報告事項裡面原本就可以啊也是可以留下發言的紀錄啊現在就開始了嗎"},{"start":3133.611,"end":3156.882,"text":"應該這麼說 再強調一次運會交下來把這些要解凍案就是列在報告事項裡面那現在各位對有幾案有意見嘛 對不對那有意見我們就暫行保留暫行保留然後讓整個巡打結束完之後部長報告巡打完結束之後我們再來針對你剛剛要保留這幾個案子來做"},{"start":3158.058,"end":3179.036,"text":"討論啦,處理,但是不是把他列在討論事項啦我一定會讓你們發言啦,你不用擔心這樣可以吧,徵詢大家意見都沒有意見,好,OK好,那我就請部長來做報告"},{"start":3191.617,"end":3209.779,"text":"主席各位首先先感謝各位對於本部及所屬機關業務的支持那大院在第11屆第二會期審議本部主管114年度預算所決議的預算凍結本部前已將書面資料76案函送大院在案"},{"start":3210.58,"end":3237.366,"text":"那請就院會交付委員會審查的17案辦理情形來做報告那敬請各位委員指教首先有關本部及所屬機關業務費之編列與執行方面本部各項業務工作均與服務民眾極為相關業務費的執行除了影響本部基本工作維持以外也會影響與勞工團體民間團體及地方政府協力合作之業務"},{"start":3239.008,"end":3261.806,"text":"勞工保險局是第一線為民服務機關本項業務費是為辦理勞保等社會保險及退休金業務攸關於1950萬人的權益那如未解凍為民服務行政工作將會受限恐會損及勞工加保給付及退休金請領的權益"},{"start":3263.627,"end":3289.294,"text":"那勞動力發展署及所屬業務費是辦理民眾參與職業訓練課程及就業輔導以及各地就業服務據點之承攬人力之服務及服務費用如果沒有解凍恐造成為民服務基本維運無以為繼包括多元勞動力的開發也會產生影響服務能量會與場館的運維都會有所受限"},{"start":3290.373,"end":3308.225,"text":"那職業安全衛生署業務費是為辦理健全職業安全衛生管理制度建構職場安全防災措施等多項重要目標如果未能解凍恐會影響全國勞工之工作安全之成效預防及重建等重要業務之推動"},{"start":3310.171,"end":3321.763,"text":"勞動基金運用局業務費主要是維持辦公室基本行政營運及金融分析軟體與資訊源服務等投資資訊支出必要經費該局經"},{"start":3324.722,"end":3348.038,"text":"儘管基金規模日益增長維持營運及確保基金投資系統正常營運對於廣大勞工權益及退休生活保險至關重要勞動及職業安全衛生研究所業務費主要是用在研擬各項勞動標準草案改進安全衛生制度建構減災技術和方法等"},{"start":3351.36,"end":3374.847,"text":"经费冻结恐会影响其研究成果及推广其次对于落实劳工权益及职场平权推动方面本部每年积极办理劳动条件检查落实劳动基准法另外改善低薪问题从105年以来已经连续9年调让最低工资至于我国全时就业者每周经常性工资为1.5%"},{"start":3377.828,"end":3388.695,"text":"41.5小時那我們將持續研議更友善的友善勞工的公私彈性政策另因應性別平等工作法性騷擾"},{"start":3390.362,"end":3412.112,"text":"防治修正規定以編制相關宣導手冊及範本並積極與相關單位合作進行教育宣導及提供性騷擺害人各項資源與服務有關勞動力發展及跨國勞動力管理方面消除年齡歧視及促進中高齡參與的部分本部積極推動中高齡者及高"},{"start":3413.132,"end":3432.566,"text":"高齡者就业促进法与各项措施老参率将专访实行前分别增加3.26%及0.81%又为强化专访已发布中高龄及高龄者就业促进计划采分离分策略方式提升中高龄及高龄者老参率"},{"start":3433.807,"end":3452.48,"text":"補助辦理就業保險業務所需行政事務費主要是支應辦理就業服務支257位一線就業服務人員及相關服務人員的人事費用111年至113年度辦理求職推介就業人數中投保就業人數有55873人到40,000"},{"start":3459.64,"end":3482.646,"text":"8164人不等為周全私立救福機構異常事件之通報義務規劃將移工因故死亡案件通報流程納入現行規定並請各單位地方政府勞工主管機關並同協助處理相關事務令修正評鑑要點確認仲介機構如實提供服務有關強化節能措施提升用電效率方面"},{"start":3485.968,"end":3501.62,"text":"為確實強化各項潛能措施本部已擬定勞動部及所屬機關用電效率提升計劃本部勞工保險局勞動力發展署高屏東分署技能檢定中心與勞動及職業安全衛生研究院"},{"start":3502.501,"end":3523.826,"text":"研究所均以依據本部用電提升計畫定定其成並搭配短期及長期策略按部就班提升用電效率能源節約能源及節省經費支出最後機關自行維運社群粉絲團與媒體政策及業務宣導方面"},{"start":3525.438,"end":3544.14,"text":"本部脸书粉丝团自外提供服务以来各单位皆由指派同仁一起参与微运工作后续将透过工作群组分享逐步提升本部同仁经营社群媒体的能力令职业安全卫生署为提升强化全民公安意识透过内政部"},{"start":3544.801,"end":3564.035,"text":"警政署警察廣播電台及各種多元管道以更貼近人民的方式廣泛觸及不同族群的勞工朋友宣導職業安全衛生相關職能本部僅遵照決議事項積極辦理以上各項運算均是業務所需敬請各位委員多多支持並會事指教謝謝"},{"start":3570.353,"end":3594.11,"text":"好 謝謝部長的報告那接下來有關本次的會議各項說明資料均列入紀錄 刊登公報現在來做詢問 做一下宣告第一 本會委員詢問時間6加5分鐘列行委員時間1分鐘 失聯辦截止發言登記委員如果有順便質詢 請於3月前提出一舉不受理暫定失聯辦休息10分鐘本次會議不處理臨時提案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭志委員來做詢問"},{"start":3599.395,"end":3599.858,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩部長"},{"start":3607.215,"end":3630.208,"text":"部長辛苦部長我想跟您討論這個外移工權益的問題我相信部長知道這個報告吧這個報告是美國的非營利勞團團體叫透明組織Transparent他們今年發布的報告那他們調查了台灣有90幾位這個紡織業的移工然後寫出這個報告你看他的標題看了很難過耶"},{"start":3632.062,"end":3635.383,"text":"他的報紙是台灣紡織業的勞工剝削我直接翻譯他們訪問這九十幾位紡織業的移工發現了很多像侵害勞工權益的證據包括收取買工費"},{"start":3646.892,"end":3674.246,"text":"服務費防止逃跑的押金扣留身分證件執行宵禁恐嚇跟威脅欺騙等等部長我知道你你看過這個報告所以你有講過這個嚴查嚴辦那我想知道不好意思你到現在為止你做了什麼嚴查嚴辦做了什麼跟陳仁說明確實台灣我們相關的制度過去在國際上面一直有"},{"start":3675.738,"end":3703.66,"text":"這樣子的有很多等一下我會舉例被批評的就這個部分被批評的地方因為你回答了嘛那剛剛陳委員講到包括像收取買工費那也包括一些不合理的包括一些債務透過債務的方式透過債務的方式來控制移工我想其實我們這段時間其實也一直在我們一直在檢討我們一直在檢討接下來的移工的相關的政策也包括像剛才講到買工費"},{"start":3704.981,"end":3725.597,"text":"其實過去常常會把相關的重要的文件不是現在不是現在開始開會其實比方說很多的買工費的收取他是透過比方說可能會扣住你重要的身份文件所以我們其實這段時間也把這些重要的身份文件把它給網路化線上"},{"start":3727.728,"end":3747.982,"text":"移工也可以去做申請希望能夠降低被收取買工費的機會就是整體啦這件事情我們都在進行你整體的進度那我就是跟你要一下那個會後我要一下說你們現在進度到什麼程度沒問題因為我還有很多相關的一樣的問題因為這個事情我們也非常非常關鍵很重要因為國際都知道這件事"},{"start":3748.562,"end":3777.14,"text":"那根據訪談資料許工移工表示他們當然你提到了他的護照被工廠保管了我要提醒部長根據國際勞工組織他的認定保留身份證件他是強迫勞動指標之一這個就是最壞的指標就是保留人家的身份證工人如果沒有身份證的話可能會覺得沒辦法離職也沒辦法使用一些服務甚至害怕他根本不敢去跟政府做任何的這個要求協助那"},{"start":3778.221,"end":3803.823,"text":"報告裡有提到這個報告還提到說台灣的法律只要獲得工人同意僱主可以保管護照這是合法的但是美國國務院在2024年的人口販運報告中指出台灣這個僱主往往能夠輕易的脅迫移工自願交出身份證件他這個自願你看他還打了引號voluntary"},{"start":3804.844,"end":3819.117,"text":"就是說他這個自願很有問題就是說他們的自願是真的自願嗎還是被迫這個是美國國務院的報告勞動部是不是要修法要全面禁止這個雇主擁有或拿走押注"},{"start":3820.158,"end":3840.655,"text":"這個移工的這個證件跟我們說明吼現在在人口放育防治法裡面其實已經有把相關規定給納入那接下來我們也願意在救福法裡面在修訂救福法的時候來檢討跟修訂跟著人口放育防治法來修訂我們願意願意改就是把它入法因為這件事情是不應該被允許的"},{"start":3842.709,"end":3855.305,"text":"護照被扣除這其實就是會有強迫勞動那目前是合法的所以你這個部分你同意要修法提出修法沒關係部長你說了算我們願意在這次來做法規檢討"},{"start":3856.567,"end":3882.002,"text":"那調查報告也提到一個長久來被詬病而且讓台灣老實說在國際上惡名昭彰的一件事就是仲介服務費這件事我從徐部長開始我就一直質詢到現在雖然勞動部都說服務費不是強制的就是有服務才會有收費但是理想很豐滿現實上很骨感就是要有服務才能收費這個說法很多移工說我沒有看到因為這個調查報告寫的"},{"start":3883.283,"end":3895.101,"text":"我沒有看到我沒有得到好處啊我只是每個月都交錢啊那仲介沒有提供我任何幫助啊請問部長您知道因為雖然他不是強制的請問你知道有多少移工他拒絕繳這個仲介費嗎你有統計嗎"},{"start":3898.766,"end":3919.434,"text":"跟成員說明 其實這件事情的關鍵是在於我們自己也期望政府未來在聘僱方面的角色必須更加的強化跟功能必須更加的強化讓政府的公共服務其實在移工聘僱的過程裡面是扮演更多的角色我知道你的理想這段時間我們一直在檢討包括職聘的做法"},{"start":3923.456,"end":3943.287,"text":"那我們其實確實沒有錯我們也針對因為國際上面對於我們的服務費確實有很多的指教勞工有拒絕的權利請問你認為有多少勞工敢拒絕雇主的要求呢你認為有嗎第一個是這個服務費其實不是雇主的要求這個服務費其實是跟著仲介主要是跟著仲介抱歉我講的就是"},{"start":3943.627,"end":3955.733,"text":"那你進來就被剝削了一些費用我們現在希望能夠更強化職聘就是希望未來在這個聘僱移工的過程可以減少對仲介的依賴"},{"start":3959.435,"end":3983.82,"text":"發飾量比較鬆綁的時候您到我辦公室來我們溝通你也說有困難因為進來的移工遠遠不及需求又要排擠等等那我也理解但是我們都很清楚很告訴您之前的部長也是我們就是沒有競爭力那沒有競爭力其中一個很重要的理由就是我們就是不學其他國家的政府對政府的職聘你一直都保留這部分所以等下移工一進來他就背負了債務超過10萬甚至20萬的債務"},{"start":3986.48,"end":4015.468,"text":"所以你就是一句話而已啊陳偉仁其實我這幾天在你沒有競爭力在APEC其實我們也跟其他的國家正在討論是不是來參考其他國家包括是在職聘或者是更多的政府角色的做法其實這件事情我們確實目前是在規劃中希望你以勞運出身的這個部長能夠真的把這件事放在心裡這件事情我們在強化職聘制度規劃中所以我們就是希望接下來可以再減少對仲介的依賴"},{"start":4016.448,"end":4021.35,"text":"讓政府的角色可以承擔更多的責任這是這裡面最大的關鍵是在這個地方那紡織業你再回到剛剛因為他是勞力密集的一個出口產業那高度仰賴移工所以國際上會非常關注2016年美國白宮論壇就把台灣紡織業的勞權問題視為焦點尤其是仲介服務費這一塊那當時有警告他警告我們"},{"start":4038.138,"end":4048.053,"text":"就是說如果你不改善影響這個就會影響出口但是快要九年十年過去問題還沒有改變那現在的問題說你現在碰到川普的關稅戰那對台灣的這個紡織產業很多產業但尤其這紡織產業來說是雙重打擊啦"},{"start":4054.582,"end":4068.955,"text":"所以勞動部你真的要好好思考如何解決國際上對台灣移工的這些與這是雙重的嘛你本來就有這個問題嘛勞權的問題你現在又不要要去談判了那紡織業又是這個出口最重要的一個部分啊部長才對你也承諾"},{"start":4071.227,"end":4081.7,"text":"確實我們現在有沒有看到現在在很多國際上面是有在討論像公平聘僱像這樣子一個很重要的主題就是之前委員剛剛指教的這些議題就是公平聘僱的議題我們其實有留意到這件事情"},{"start":4090.37,"end":4112.631,"text":"其實從勞動部的角度當然現在產業的談判這部分是我們的談判團隊在跟美方在進行談判可是我想我們從勞動部的角度我們很重要的角度是我們是要顧住勞工權益的部分不管是本勞或者是移工我想這是我們勞動部最重要的出發點或是在這裡"},{"start":4113.211,"end":4119.675,"text":"另外有一群很需要你幫忙的是身障及早療兒童家庭這個團體的陳情因為目前身障兒童的申請外籍看護的條件跟成人一樣要非常嚴重我想右邊這個圖你非常熟悉但是這個爸爸媽媽們認為中輕度的一個兒童或"},{"start":4129.301,"end":4144.005,"text":"他們在這個如果他的黃金療癒時間是前六個月那如果在18歲以前能夠繼續持續做復健的話其實未來有很高的比喻他們有回到這個跟社會是接軌的啦所以這樣他們需要有一些鬆綁的一些標準讓他們第一個讓家長能夠繼續工作嘛"},{"start":4147.366,"end":4174.504,"text":"繼續工作照顧他的家庭能夠專注於幫助這些孩子進行這個早療的這個復健所以他們不是只有喘息的服務需要或短期服務他們需要是一個比較長期的協助不然我覺得期間有限我告訴你先進障礙目前有5萬多人但其中這個屬於這一群的人因為很重重重度可以嘛大概有84%4萬多那早療通報目前有3萬多那加起來有8萬個家庭在期待"},{"start":4175.345,"end":4194.625,"text":"柏俊你可不可以去研議一下這8萬個家庭他們需要特別照顧的這些孩子的家庭有沒有辦法幫幫他們我跟陳委員報告因為這個議題它比較大的程度會是關於我們很多身心障礙包括我們這些可能比較需要幫助的小孩他們整體的照顧政策"},{"start":4195.986,"end":4211.746,"text":"這個整體的照顧政策我們當然願意我們當然願意在這個部分跟衛福部來合作或者是來討論我們願意可是因為這個事情這個議題本身它是我們包括是早療包括生長兒童整體的照顧政府的照顧政策的部分"},{"start":4212.327,"end":4217.77,"text":"那尤其這裡面 我想問一下你的態度你的態度 你要不要照顧這群人有沒有準備想辦法照顧這群人陳委員我要說明一個政策可能不是只是簡單我說我們願意跟衛福部來討論這件事情因為尤其是早療跟身障兒童其實他在照顧方面的"},{"start":4228.816,"end":4237.481,"text":"門檻比較高很多事都是跨部會的對 它會涉及到所以我說就跨部會的角度來說我們願意跟衛福部來做這個事情的討論我們願意跟衛福部來討論這個議題怎麼樣更多的來協助早療跟生長兒童可是這個可能不是一個單一片面很寶貝嘛 照顧他們最後一個問題對 但是它是一個整體的照顧政策的問題身心障礙照顧政策的問題"},{"start":4250.327,"end":4266.096,"text":"真的很辛苦你好好照顧口罩國家對這個宏偉報出經營不善有員工出來控訴說突然沒了工作沒了收入然後去跟勞工局申請失業補助的時候才知道說宏偉根本沒有幫他們繳勞健保費那個過去我們三不五時就會聽到經營不善然後勞工整個失業了然後沒有勞健保費換句話說這些公司沒有繳勞健保費這件事本身勞動部地方勞工局都沒有辦法預防嗎"},{"start":4277.702,"end":4301.848,"text":"你看到勞健保費繳不出來你就知道經營有問題啦為什麼要讓到最後爆炸了呢讓勞工直接去面對呢跟委員這邊做說明就站在確保勞工的一個權益上面如果公司今天有從勞工的薪資裡面扣繳保費那沒有繳交給勞保局在勞保條例17條規定裡面只要勞工提出相關的證明文件一樣是可以保險給付不受權益的影響"},{"start":4302.688,"end":4319.042,"text":"沒有交勞健保費啊那你說讓業者你應該在防範那你的問題還是說等他出問題了才處理就是說他們勞健保費欠繳你就讓他欠繳囉那電廠基金欠繳你就讓他欠繳喔然後等勞動部等出事了勞工失業了然後勞工自己來救濟"},{"start":4320.163,"end":4343.24,"text":"這不是方法嗎 你不是在最後的時候委員這邊再做一個補充喔就是說勞保局這邊平常在做保費的一個吹角如果遇到投保單位這邊欠費達一定程度我們會依相關法令的規定來通知地方主管機關某個程度你就要去關注跟處理這個問題 不然受害就是勞工嘛而且勞工根本不知道他的老闆沒有幫他繳勞健保費嘛"},{"start":4344.781,"end":4369.543,"text":"我的重點在這個地方因為你現在談的是保費的部分那保費的部分當然我們有一定程度來去要求他趕快來補繳但是受害的是勞工經營不善的部分但其實坦白說這個欠繳的企業也不見得都是經營不善的我們也看到有一些經營很不錯的有欠繳稍微看看有些就是沒有繳的開始有出問題的機會很高因為這是你要照顧勞工基本權益"},{"start":4370.043,"end":4388.19,"text":"所以我們是可以來看,如果有欠繳狀況時間比較長的話,我們重點來關注你可以做吧,勞動部要保護勞動部嘛,勞動部要保護勞工嘛就知道我們路會走到那裡來,那我們現在就讓這條路不要走下去我們可以重點來關注,如果欠繳時間比較長的好,謝謝部長,謝謝主席好,謝謝接下來請林月琴委員來做選擇"},{"start":4409.543,"end":4410.428,"text":"主席 麻煩我們的勞動部部長部長"},{"start":4420.656,"end":4445.156,"text":"部長早有些東西針對於解凍的來想跟你做一個討論根據大法官釋字第549號的解釋那個勞工保險的依屬年輕的青年人資格包括配偶小孩跟受到被保險人生前撫養並有共同生活適時的兄弟姊妹那在勞工保險條例的規定裡邊在限制"},{"start":4447.618,"end":4468.91,"text":"被保險人的投保期間內死亡這些對象是可領取那如果在退保後的死亡的話可領一半那這些法條都有不斷的有民眾去反映說生前撫養被保險人的兄弟姊妹或者沒受到被保險人的撫養的兄弟姊妹在被保險人死亡後兄弟姊妹事實上是沒有請領資格等同於"},{"start":4470.211,"end":4497.368,"text":"處罰單身的條款所以本席認為儘管無法滿足民眾的需求至少應該要有充分的資料去支持政府的立場好像民眾說明而不是一句說大法官解釋就糊弄過去因為所以本席認為這個解凍的條件是希望能夠評估這項修正預估涉及的人數跟增加的費用這部分你們都沒有給我回覆所以是不是可以請部長這邊答"},{"start":4500.594,"end":4519.902,"text":"跟委員報告就是當然這個議題主要是勞保的單身條款那主要是依照我們91年大法官會議解釋的49號解釋認為說移屬今天是所得的替代那目的是在避免移屬生活無依那所以要受被保險生前撫養為條件"},{"start":4521.543,"end":4550.724,"text":"這個我都知道是不是我當初希望你們如果假設去做修正的話那涉及的人數跟增加費用是多少我主要是先請你們預估那才會為下一步的如果要去修正的話那個鋪陳有沒有可能性可是我覺得到至今都還是沒有收到這些資料有關柴菇的部分其實我們也處理了但是其實在前提的部分主要是涉及到大法官會議解釋那這個案子我們在104年的時候也曾經提過修法的查案送到現在我現在就是"},{"start":4551.665,"end":4570.003,"text":"我想知道資料我並沒有說你們要不要修正我現在想知道說如果一旦修正的話那個財庫的狀況到底是什麼我只是要資料可是也一直都沒有拿到你就一直在跟我們解釋說大法官解釋怎樣也就是我們現在民眾的感覺你們每次解釋的是說我只要是你們"},{"start":4574.808,"end":4603.115,"text":"現在如果估算出來過往的經驗裡面先估算出這樣子的金額大概在多少這種資料不能給嗎這個問題其實是說前提是這個議題能不能放寬那能放寬的時候我們才來去處理財估那主要是因為大法官會解釋以及各個社會保險的聯動關係那當然這個部分我覺得反過來講就是因為想知道這種估算才知道說未來"},{"start":4603.857,"end":4629.466,"text":"可能會應對的狀況是什麼所以我不知道為什麼資料不能給是來部長是不是可以麻煩一下第一個是就是我們我們就來一個禮拜內提供給委員初步的估算好不好好謝謝部長因為這一直存在一個爭議不是一張紙說沒有通過申請公文就可以平息而且我覺得真的要如果真的有真的後面有自然難行也要有個精準的數據之後來做說明那"},{"start":4633.007,"end":4633.387,"text":"接下去想問的是針對本席我相信部長也聽過我講好幾次"},{"start":4641.532,"end":4667.32,"text":"介林退休年齡還一段時間的像55歲以上他就遭受到雇主逼退或是優退的這個社會問題是存在的從我進來我們收到蠻多案子然後就每次諮詢的時候都會問那這次在預算省的時候我們也再度的提出來就是說你等於是55歲就離開了這樣職場那這些我們又缺工可是因為雇主的心態是說因為他已經到主管級的話那當然他的"},{"start":4667.822,"end":4680.454,"text":"薪水偏高那我把它優退之後我可以聘比較稍微薪水可以偏低的來做主管所以我覺得希望能夠提出一些解方來所以"},{"start":4681.076,"end":4704.028,"text":"我本來提出來解凍條件是請勞動部針對未滿65歲遭受到僱主提出提前退休獲得離開原有職位去做一些調查那可是始終質詢也沒辦法拿到然後在講說東野預算是希望你們還是可以提出來這個可是現在也都還是沒有任何我們希望做一個調查計畫可是到現在還是沒有辦法"},{"start":4704.628,"end":4731.335,"text":"為什麼 公務員報告對我們也很關心這個部分上次在預算處理的時候那因為事實上他被勸休退他就是說不管是勸休退的話自己提醒退休的話我們會請縣市政府來協助我現在要的 不好意思我要的不是我是說一直希望你們去做調查去了解這種狀況那我在跟統計處我想說我們可以來調查 對"},{"start":4732.555,"end":4743.975,"text":"好好好謝謝部長那第三個就是針對於我們身心障礙現代120萬的人那113年身心障礙者的勞動人口跟非勞動人口的比例是22比78"},{"start":4746.083,"end":4772.547,"text":"15歲以上的大概參與率是21.9失業率是7.1那身心障礙者勞動力需要政府提供就業服務者大概32.5%那身心障礙非勞動力有工作能力的大概占14.4%有工作意願的占7.7面對這樣的數字我有兩個關注的問題就是身心障礙勞動力是不是能夠充分就業跟非勞動力有工作能力者"},{"start":4772.967,"end":4797.126,"text":"是不是可以被發掘出來獲得工作的機會所以在台灣的現在狀況底下我們期待勞動部是不是可以提出身心障礙者一般性的工作還有提出的意思是提出就是針對於身心障礙一般性工作推介的促進方法跟推動的時程規劃避免用庇護工"},{"start":4797.987,"end":4814.279,"text":"做庇護性的工作現在幾乎都聲音上來都是說他去庇護工廠工作來混充這些數據啦所以想問喔因為我當初勞動部的解診報告裡面我是不是可以提出一個你們回應我的我這個要求事實上是希望提出有更多"},{"start":4815.14,"end":4840.41,"text":"就是你們給我的是你們現行的就業的促進措施這些措施不需要你們告訴我我大概就是以為查閱我想問的是精進的有沒有針對於身心障礙的這個勞動力到底有沒有充分就業還有就是非勞動力的整個工作者到底能不能被發掘來讓他們有工作機會好 跟陳委員說明跟你委員說明第一個是其實這幾年在這個這個"},{"start":4844.551,"end":4868.732,"text":"申請法通過後包括我們定額禁用的這個組合的單位比率其實一直有在創新高我覺得這邊的努力是有效果的那第二個是我們其實接下來我們其實也是在研擬關於身份障礙者在職場的合理調整的行政指導那我們這部分也會有幫助如果更多的職場他可以在這個合理調整上面能夠做得更好的話也會有助於"},{"start":4869.292,"end":4897.435,"text":"那再來是我們其實現在也在擬定要規劃這個職業重建服務的對象也包括我們整體職業重建服務的量能那這裡面也包括植物災設計的部分我們也希望能夠做得更仔細我想這些做法其實當然都是希望能夠讓身心障礙者在就業上面一些更精進的做法它可能不是只是既有的而已是 博士長我相信你也了解我覺得四人四業單位跟公務體系一樣"},{"start":4898.191,"end":4917.841,"text":"都有一個定額的禁用的制度可是台灣產業大概就是我們的是中小企業比較多所以所開出來的職缺相對的少為什麼因為我們中小企業比較多你要買一百人才要拼用身心障礙所以有些甚至雇主大家就直接我給你我繳錢給你我不要拼身心障礙者"},{"start":4918.314,"end":4938.92,"text":"所以我覺得勞動部我覺得應該要去思考到有沒有真的讓實際上而不是用庇護工廠來讓他們作為一個就業機會而已所以我剛才講的裡面我剛才跟你報告這裡面我們並沒有特別提到庇護工廠庇護工廠當然是另外一個區塊可是我剛才在講到包括定額禁用包括職場的合理調整"},{"start":4939.52,"end":4958.53,"text":"那也包括很直接的職業重建這當然都是一個高度的專業我們希望把這些專業的能量可以做得更好那部長也在提醒就是尤其是經脹者有時候他們對人際溝通是有一些困難的所以勞動部這邊未來有沒有什麼樣的對策因為他們到職場當中有時候會碰到這樣子的一個障礙"},{"start":4960.336,"end":4971.523,"text":"我們有辦理金帳者的社區支持計畫然後透過金帳者的支持性就業服務員協助他們順利進到一般社區有辦理金帳者的社區支持計畫透過金帳者的支持性就業服務協助他們順利轉錢到一般的職場"},{"start":4980.083,"end":5007.307,"text":"那最後就是針對於外籍那個家庭的安護的看護工裡面照顧訓練的精進做法所以想問的是就是移工的照顧服務訓練不是在比誰上課時數多是要看授課後的結果所以想問移工的海外訓練的結果具備本國照護"},{"start":5008.147,"end":5030.129,"text":"服務員的功能嗎 功力嗎其實就訓練的時數來說當然我認為跟本國的照顧服務員在技能上面我認為可能還是會有差距的是 那怎麼去補足因為國外訓練然後現在我們進來之後又馬上希望能夠立即上工"},{"start":5032.795,"end":5060.818,"text":"對那當然在訓練上面我們是是可以來做這些課程的強化我們這是當然這是要跟母國的單位去做合作可是可是確實沒有錯就是跟本國的訓練包括他的受訓的強度甚至薪資都還是會有落差這是目前確實目前的現況是部長所以想問喔勞動部到底對於海外的訓練中心有沒有查驗的制度知道他們整個的"},{"start":5061.539,"end":5083.575,"text":"上課的怎麼去確保這些品質跟我們說明確實我們現在在整體一共的政策裡面我們在做整體的檢討這個檢討也包括我們是不是有多一點其實可以在海外瞭解招募包括簡訊相關簡或訊相關的能量這部分我們的確現在是在檢討中"},{"start":5084.716,"end":5108.469,"text":"那另外一個這樣子的時數跟收費狀況尤其是海外訓練勞動部到底有沒有確實確保就是那個時數有沒有灌水有時候是為了多收錢這種狀況跟委員說明一下有關海外訓練的部分原則上呢是由海外的仲介公司所提供"},{"start":5109.127,"end":5136.963,"text":"那入台之後呢我們也發現普遍僱主反映他們的語言方面還有技能方面不夠純熟所以本署也在針對這個部分呢提供入境後的一些學科以及語言方面的訓練時數那這個部分呢也有實體的也有數位課程都可以供這個僱主來提供選擇所以目前我們是有在開辦那也有一定的訓練那這個資料我們可以提供給委員再麻煩"},{"start":5138.164,"end":5161.72,"text":"那最後還是期待就是這事項是我一直很關注的所以今天可能後面資料再麻煩提供給我們有的我們針對於像就業促進的話再麻煩我覺得部長多費心 以上謝謝好 謝謝林委員好 謝謝那接下來請陳勤恩委員來做選答"},{"start":5167.705,"end":5171.848,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員 那我也想請洪部長來請部長謝謝部長 這個應該也是您非常關心的啦 很多人都知道你也是棒球迷嘛新一屆的這個職棒球員工會理事長已經出爐了那上一任呢 陳傑憲他在當理事長的時候 他作為一件"},{"start":5194.546,"end":5208.999,"text":"首例就是運動產業首次的團體的協約那當然明訂了工作條件福利保障以及選手代表的制度性地位等等當時勞動部從旁有扮演非常多輔導的角色建立這個互動"},{"start":5210.18,"end":5231.428,"text":"好那我們新的工會理事長他上任之後他說他就有一個新的目標他希望可以催生團體協約2.0那這邊列出一些他很在意的內容給部長參考第一個他希望可以制定像是大聯盟有的這樣子溝通平台也就是說他希望有例行性的制度性的讓大家一起坐下來談的勞資關係小組"},{"start":5234.249,"end":5256.216,"text":"那第二個呢他是希望可以更促進選手的權益這些權益就當然包括說比如說高溫白天正中午希望可以演賽啊等等這一類那第三點就是也是國外的一個趨勢希望說贊助選手的廠商要用選手的肖像結果需要自己的球團等同意等等"},{"start":5258.257,"end":5273.218,"text":"希望可以改變這樣子肖像權的問題那以上這個三大目標是他在當選那天提出來的這些他未來希望做成的目標但是現在他們很擔心的事情就是說"},{"start":5275.32,"end":5301.871,"text":"這個林萌的蔡其昌會長他可能2027是會卸任那吉利吉勞鞏冠他是2028才會再換人所以他們很害怕說在談這個一兩年的進度可能談到一半會長就換人所以在這邊會希望說藉由這個機會可以跟勞動部部長說是不是可以請勞動關係師來幫忙因為你們有一些團體契約很不錯的案例可以從旁去輔導分享給他們然後協助他們這樣子"},{"start":5304.229,"end":5328.416,"text":"其實這幾年團體協約的進展其實是蠻好的就是各工會那我想針對這個職棒全員工會提的這個我們會全力全力來協助好所以你們可以主動來跟工會還有主動跟聯盟都做接洽嗎而且我們其實也參與他那天的會長的交接所以我們會全力協助所以您對於這三點他在意的內容您覺得是審慎樂觀的"},{"start":5331.257,"end":5352.171,"text":"我不是說審慎樂觀但是我們會全力協助好那下一個呢關於這個4100億的特別預算我們有看到說勞動部也佔了其中的一部分嘛其中就包含所謂的受衝擊再就業簡單來說就是協助這些可能會面臨失業的勞工為主是嗎"},{"start":5354.21,"end":5377.492,"text":"這個部分確實是比較是針對如果已經受到關稅如果衝擊那或者是產生的失業那我們要怎麼樣協助他們重返職場那甚至是這個可能會希望能夠做到比過去的這個失業勞工的協助再更進一步所以我們會整合進更多其他的就業服務"},{"start":5377.932,"end":5394.594,"text":"好所以我呢在5月2號其實有跟您所資但是其實過了快半個月今天早上才拿到再就業計畫相關的說明資料因為您有好幾個再就業計畫我想知道說之前的成效是如何啦那"},{"start":5395.114,"end":5412.912,"text":"之前我看您當立委的時候其實常常質詢這個議題您說到說台灣婦女的再就業跟日韓比是偏低的那您在APEC也有講到這一類的議題那這個是我們跟你們所知13天之後才終於早上拿到的數據"},{"start":5414.193,"end":5441.628,"text":"在113年你們協助了針對這個婦女部分協助婦女在就業計畫38000人重返職場那你們認為是有達到原本你們訂的3.5萬人可是我覺得本席覺得非常可惜的是這個預算的執行率是25.5%也就是說大部分這38000人很可惜是沒有辦法請領到你們的補助的"},{"start":5442.108,"end":5459.63,"text":"那針對這一點您有什麼想法是不是可以提升我們其實對於目前的這個預算的執行率我自己也不滿意所以我們新任的黃署長上任後他在4月的時候上任後我其實也交付給他一個重要的任務是要把我們這些就業的計畫"},{"start":5461.051,"end":5477.992,"text":"因為就業計畫裡面它不是只是一支它其實是很多支相關的計畫那有些計畫之間有一點彼此的重疊都有那所以有時候也會影響彼此之間執行的效能所以我會請在4月的時候我就請黃署長接下來我們會一個關於這些就業計畫的總體檢"},{"start":5480.454,"end":5507.464,"text":"會有一個總體檢的計畫就是希望能夠把這些相關的諮詢率可以做到更到位或幫助的人可以更多當然我們看到是有一些我們這個一些KPI是有達到可是我自己是希望能夠做到能夠協助到的尤其是拿到我們的獎勵包括拿到我們獎助的人其實可以更多那這部分我們可能包括我們什麼時候可以看到您的方案"},{"start":5508.384,"end":5535.227,"text":"新的方案因為黃處長其實也剛上任他四月的時候上任那因為計畫很多那因為這個檢討他不是單一計畫的檢討他其實可能是幾十支計畫同時要檢討所以這部分我想我是給黃處長大概三個月以上三個月的時間那我們三個月三個月跟您追一下你們想要怎麼改善這些再去因為我也很關心這個部分我覺得確實我們可以做得更好的空間好"},{"start":5536.448,"end":5562.197,"text":"再來這也是這幾天很多網友他們可能在討論的下一張執政黨委員他們有提到說多放假很擔心勞工會被AI取代我們想知道勞動部長對這一件事情的看法如何我想AI的普及其實確實本來就會有相關的勞動的議題這是一個很多學者相關的問題"},{"start":5563.615,"end":5583.278,"text":"那但是我講因為現在但是這跟放假有關係對所以我說現在國定假日的這個條例通過以後我想從勞動部的角度我們其實就是應該要依法來協助這個條例的執行我想我們態度就是這樣子對但是AI跟放假有關嗎"},{"start":5584.79,"end":5603.796,"text":"我想AI本身是一個議題那針對國定假日的議題我們我想我們勞動部的態度就是我們該依法通過的法律來協助這個條例的執行尤其是兼顧到這個勞工的相關的權益比方說如果"},{"start":5604.736,"end":5627.796,"text":"雇主真的勞工同意要在國定假日要出勤的話你是要給雙倍工資的像這樣子的提醒跟這樣協助的執行我想這是我們勞工部在修法通過以後我們會來做的是 理解好 那在這邊簡單的跟部長報告為什麼AI跟放假並沒有特別的相關因為AI它取代的是簡單或者是重複性高的"},{"start":5628.516,"end":5647.711,"text":"事情但是這件事情放假他是保障勞工的權益所以部分技術被取代跟保障勞工的權益其實這兩個議題是不能混為一談的啦那在這邊比較希望部長重視的地方是說因為根據勞動部自己的一個大調查"},{"start":5649.493,"end":5676.489,"text":"3%的企業已經開始使用AI作為面試協助的工具那34%正在考慮使用可是最近我們國際上有發現說像Amazon他們之前用他們內部的數據去做他們從2014年開始研發結果他們2015年就發現說哇 他們用之前的數據會反映出可能履歷表出現女性會被扣分因為他們過去的聘用紀錄大部分"},{"start":5677.689,"end":5706.048,"text":"評估的是男性所以他們2014年開始研發結果他們2018年就決定放棄這個實驗性的系統了那另外其他的這個華盛頓大學他也去做了大規模的分析他發現說如果你用AI在做評估履歷的時候有可能比如說男性的姓氏會被評比較高分或是黑人的姓氏就比較容易被評低分所以無意中他會加劇原本存在的職場歧視的問題"},{"start":5707.729,"end":5728.511,"text":"所以部長也知道說我們這個AI基本法其實這個禮拜在立法院有密切的被討論的聯席的會議所以我們會想追一下您的進度因為之前勞動部有針對就業市場使用AI的相關規範以及指引希望可以提出一個指引這個進度如何呢"},{"start":5729.244,"end":5750.079,"text":"我想剛剛陳委員提到其實就是其實也很多人都提醒了在AI的使用裡面它可能會強化某些主流觀點的偏誤跟主流觀點的產生的歧視所以這也是在這裡面尤其在運用在職場上面大家需要注意的問題所以我想其實我們確實現在也在擬定相關的指引的部分"},{"start":5750.987,"end":5780.359,"text":"各位報告總共有三個指引會在今年年底會完成今年年底對就業歧視的部分好那在這邊其實只是稍微提醒這個是歐洲的2024年通過的人工智慧法案他是在規定說在招聘的時候要注意這以下比如說透明度或是資料的品質有沒有偏誤人為的監督和干預還有AI的素養培訓希望在這邊給部長建議把這些國際上把求職列入的"},{"start":5781.019,"end":5810.061,"text":"也可以放到您的指引當中我想這些問題其實是在使用AI裡面大家共同會面對到的問題所以我們其實也會跟一些相關AI應用的專業者來討論我們怎麼來克服這些問題因為這是大家共同的問題這也不是只有台灣會面對這件事情是 好 謝謝部長謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長委員會在這邊做宣告我們到文藝民委員宣達結束後會休息十分鐘接下來請邱政經委員來做宣達"},{"start":5816.247,"end":5835.123,"text":"主席好,我請洪部長我剛剛聽了一下,今天我們在談解凍案,解凍案現在送進來之後,我們未來應該要加快執行的進程"},{"start":5837.843,"end":5860.131,"text":"當然就是我們希望別人的預算都可以如期的來執行我現在比較好奇就是說現在我們地方的補助款現在是50%嗎地方的補助款哪方面的補助款就是我們勞動部補助地方的有限制嗎其實我想不同的項目不同的計畫會有不一樣我講會影響就給地方的"},{"start":5865.918,"end":5880.777,"text":"你說預算凍結或刪除會不會造成影響行政院這邊不是說先減少給50%嗎對這部分但是指的是明年度的預算因為我想行政院比較主要在"},{"start":5882.308,"end":5896.561,"text":"敘述跟規劃的是針對財化法通過後那跟這個地方政府補助的部分但是可是他有些地方我看其他單位其他部會好像就已經開始實施了實施什麼50%的部分減少50%"},{"start":5897.802,"end":5917.034,"text":"我想我們現在因為我們現在在討論的是114年的預算跟114年的預算的解凍所以我知道我現在是問別的目前114年的預算目前是還沒有用財化法在做相關的規劃跟分配所以勞動部還沒有就對了"},{"start":5917.754,"end":5936.241,"text":"對我們現在就是按照114年的預算變略來去處理勞動及就業平等業務這項預算我問了好幾次你一直在反駁嘛那我就再問一次在這筆預算裡面除了產檢價賠產檢價補助是不是還有其他被質疑過去執行成效不彰的經費"},{"start":5938.321,"end":5959.969,"text":"主要這個項目還有其他比方說落實勞基法包括是我們在協助勞政機關的培訓也包括最低工資審議那也包括減班休息相關的統計通報那也包括職場性騷擾的防治這其實是在大概花在大概一百一千"},{"start":5963.612,"end":5980.289,"text":"1170幾萬相關的這個業務都在裡面嘛你上次說你覺得你很困惑嘛對那個凍結的原因我們看一下那個我們上次講的你說為什麼要其他的牢記法的問題去影響到新手爸媽的權益當時你的表當時你是這樣認為的嗎"},{"start":5982.977,"end":5999.595,"text":"跟委員說明其實我想表達的事情是如果覺得我們在這邊有做的不足可是你卻把這方面相關的經費給刪掉那不是會對於包括勞基法的落實包括性騷擾防治反而會更不利嗎"},{"start":6003.599,"end":6025.105,"text":"你先不用,就我的問題問就好了就是說你認為決議19、20就評思這一項目王振旭委員、楊耀委員、我們林業勤委員、林淑芬委員、范雲委員、陳培宇委員還有我們劉昭偉這幾位民進黨委員都針對這部分提凍結提案所以他們也是亂凍結嗎?"},{"start":6026.892,"end":6036.118,"text":"跟委員說明,其實我在討論的是,因為我們其中有一個提案,這個提案裡面是3減800萬,再加上凍結20%跟委員說明,我指的是,我們這個提案裡面是3減800萬,再加上凍結20%可是這些委員並沒有提3減啊凍結啊"},{"start":6050.285,"end":6079.503,"text":"但是所以我跟委員說明的時候我其實指的是我們有一個提案這個提案是三減八百萬你那天講的就是兩千你不要你那天講的是兩千你不要現在又變了那你現在我現在要講就是說你們現在的說法就是拿新手爸媽當盾牌不是委員不是其他委員講的你是挑這個在野黨的來做這個指控那其他委員都不算委員我可以委員我可以來說明"},{"start":6081.369,"end":6103.394,"text":"這一整項裡面是九千七百萬新手爸媽的產檢陪產檢的補助是八千五百萬所以還有大概一千兩百萬左右可是這一千兩百萬是用在什麼地方我剛才說一千兩百萬是用在落實勞基法最低工資審議包括落實職場性騷擾包括我們很多性別平權相關的培訓"},{"start":6104.654,"end":6123.824,"text":"我並不是要把這個刪減或者凍結全部是用在這個產檢陪產檢的獎補助並不是可是他一定會影響產檢跟陪產檢的獎補助因為我這一整項裡面就是給新手爸媽跟勞工剛剛落實勞基法或者是性騷擾防治相關的業務"},{"start":6124.904,"end":6153.224,"text":"我怎麼刪我都一定會影響到這個大水庫裡面你可以選擇不認錯但你也改變不了你誤導民眾刻意抹黑把正常的監督預算打成說成打壓新手爸媽這個其實就是造謠邱委員我沒有造謠你把我們大家的信任邱委員這個案子被刪減然後撿在自己身上這個刪減是事實這個民眾對你的信任爆炸那我想你既然不承認所以我想"},{"start":6155.126,"end":6181.583,"text":"所以我在講的是事實我再問那勞動部的粉專有些貼文可以直接留言為什麼有一些設定要追滿24小時才能留言為什麼因為要追蹤24小時會有一些假帳號會有一些假帳號所以不是碰到爭議的議題你才去做所以我們還是讓大家都有沒有"},{"start":6183.018,"end":6195.454,"text":"那我們同意政策就需要宣導啦尤其這個來動權益的部分不能讓人民不知道自己的權益該怎麼主張但我想請問一下我們現在社群經營的宣傳方式真的有效嗎"},{"start":6200.685,"end":6222.421,"text":"其實在去年底就是我們也檢討我們開口契約的時候我們其實就把我們勞動部開口契約的標案給停下來了所以現在勞動部是處在一個沒有開口契約宣傳沒有開口契約宣傳標案的狀態現在有很多我們社群媒體的宣傳都是靠很辛苦的靠我們的公務同仁在協助的"},{"start":6223.101,"end":6248.236,"text":"所以都是自己弄就對了 沒有再做那以後咧 以後怎麼做當然以後我們還是希望能夠有專業的人專業的人士來協助可是至少我可以跟委員說現在從12月到現在就是從今年1月到現在目前都是沒有開口契約的這個宣傳沒宣標案的狀況下面我們很辛苦的努力在經營但這部分也是在檢討去年大家購併的一些問題"},{"start":6250.487,"end":6263.176,"text":"對 那所以現在是 那未來如果再發包開口合約的時候我們的一些規定我當然是希望說你們對這個整個成效要做追蹤就是說比如說我們對勞工這個勞保部"},{"start":6267.239,"end":6283.359,"text":"了解的部分勞工對工時加班權益理解不清楚的部分或者是勞工對勞動契約的誤解等等我想這些在線上都可以說明我希望說互動性要好一點你為了要變民你必須要把這個東西放在開口合約的規定裡面"},{"start":6285.722,"end":6307.461,"text":"你現在講的是兩個層次第一個層次是我們會對於開口契約的適用範圍做出檢討做出適當的限定因為大家現在都不希望開口契約就是被擴大的使用這部分會檢討那第二個是在宣傳內容上面的成效也希望能夠提升我覺得這兩個部分我想我們都會一起加油啦我今天時間我看大家都比較忙謝謝"},{"start":6312.452,"end":6332.358,"text":"好 謝謝邱委員 謝謝部長邱委員因為你剛剛有提到我要回應一下我是有動一個五十萬但提出報告後就可以使得動之好 謝謝 謝謝誰跟你差不多好來 接下來請王玉民委員來做懸打"},{"start":6341.493,"end":6343.916,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請洪部長我先請教一個80歲以上有老人的家庭他們關心的問題"},{"start":6356.894,"end":6377.863,"text":"在113年去年12月31號通過80歲以上老人免評80亮掉那你們要訂立相關執法現在已經快要半年了這個我去地方走動很多有老人家的家人都要問說委員那個不是立法通過了嗎什麼時候會實施我想我們現在目標還是在7月底8月的時候希望讓他上路"},{"start":6378.305,"end":6404.539,"text":"怎麼又變七月底八月 我記得第一時間你們是說半年嗎因為公告是一月啊怎麼作業時間這麼慢 你們又有什麼問題嗎就能快則快啊 立法已經通過的東西按照這個立法的原則就是半年內執法你們如果是一個有效率的部會的話 半年應該要提出來跟我們說明 其實我們在今年因為這裡面涉及到 包括我們要讓重症能夠分流"},{"start":6405.379,"end":6434.467,"text":"然後還涉及到其實有很多人力需要補食人力的裁員我們其實在上個禮拜通過救安基金委員會其實有相關的現在有相關的裁員跟人力的規劃也包括這些人力要在訓練那這裡面也還有包括我們要跟來源國來商協商要要有更多的這個這個移工的進入這裡面涉及到的層面非常非常多所以我們才會訂說這半所以才訂半年的時間"},{"start":6435.307,"end":6452.282,"text":"半年六月底就到現在已經是五月中了不是希望你們可以原來講的是半年大家現在就是六月底你現在又變成是八月不是不是這是一月二十號一月二十號公告的那你會到八月那到七月我剛剛說七月底啊"},{"start":6452.722,"end":6478.87,"text":"你剛剛說七、八月我剛剛說七月底我們現在的目標就是七月底希望能夠上路現在都還在程序內七月底可以正式上路好那這個是很多家裡有老人的家庭很關心的那接下來我就要問你有關這個勞保要不要破產的問題因為事實上今天有很多的解答案當時本席在提這個預算監督也非常關切勞保會不會破產的問題那你們"},{"start":6482.386,"end":6493.091,"text":"在那個解凍報告的時候呢你們就提出來說會再延後三年就是從原來的2028年再延後三年就是2031年這個勞保會有破產的問題不過我們如果看到潛藏負債大家還是要很嚴肅看待這個問題潛藏負債呢他也是"},{"start":6503.962,"end":6527.424,"text":"增加為13.23兆這是一個天文數字那這件事情我們看到民進黨執政之後這個上任的部長發明了一個就是說撥補即是改革那這個洪部長也是follow這樣的基調只要有撥補就是改革我沒有說這句話你沒有我沒有說這句話因為我記得我當時問你的時候你說撥補是改革"},{"start":6529.048,"end":6542.863,"text":"所以你現在委員可能記錯了我記錯了是不是好那所以你對於勞保會破產這一題上一任的部長說撥補就是改革他覺得他已經改革完畢了那請問洪部長在這件事情上你要怎麼做"},{"start":6544.417,"end":6572.807,"text":"我想其實對於勞保的問題我們一直很嚴肅的在面對其實包括怎麼樣子讓勞保基金維持水位的做法我們其實一直主張是用多元的方式在維持水位波普是其中之一可是我們包括我們其實也在看怎麼樣把投資的效益給提高那甚至我們在整體的勞保包括去克服勞保在收取上面或者是給付上面的一些問題我們其實也很積極在做"},{"start":6573.487,"end":6598.895,"text":"所以這當然還是是一個很艱難的問題可是我們並沒有覺得這只是一個純粹撥補的問題所以你有打算要去更動這一個我剛剛聽到了撥補跟給付就是給付的不是我說在給付的在操作面我們怎麼樣去做確認可以如實的收到該收到的保費然後這上面其實我們也做了一些精進的檢討"},{"start":6601.593,"end":6628.074,"text":"所以呢你的那個檢討你可以提供給委員會嗎因為過去很少聽到部長在這件事情上有所琢磨你剛說我我可能是記錯了因為我當時的印象就是你認為政府會負起最終責任所以不需要進行相關的勞保的改革對不對好那你說政府要負起最終的責任本席就要問你的態度了因為本席還有其他委員其實都有提出來"},{"start":6629.11,"end":6657.424,"text":"把政府最終支付責任入法這個已經是都送到委員會裡面來了那這件事情你會不會支持這樣的修法既然這個民進黨執政他完全沒有要去做任何的勞保的制度的改革以前還會說來研議現在是完全不研議了那在這樣的情況底下如果我們看數字當然最終這個勞保是要破產的只有政府擔起最終支付責任"},{"start":6658.462,"end":6684.064,"text":"那可能有政府在他不會倒因為之前你們是這樣講的那如果是這樣子的話那是不是就讓他明文入法這個法修法部長你贊成嗎跟王媛說明我其實我並沒有說不研議但只是這個研議確實是必須要非常審慎那因為這確實涉及到很多勞工他們的這個退休或者是老年生活的相關的權益所以我覺得我是說這個事情要非常審慎"},{"start":6685.322,"end":6703.917,"text":"那對於現在我想不管這個政府最終支付責任有沒有入法現在的政策就是政府負最後責任所以你不會反對這樣的修法嗎到時候進委員會討論這樣的版本我是持開放的態度開放態度好那這一個就拜託召委這個"},{"start":6705.893,"end":6734.632,"text":"這個我們有經過招人關心勞工的議題這個很多委員其實有提相關的版本我覺得是要讓勞工安心嘛我覺得如果政府願意扛起最終支付責任至少勞工會覺得說即使破產沒有關係只要有政府在我就領得到錢現在的政策現在的政策就是政府那你就會安心就是政府在負最終責任所以我們有裁員我們就也在思考那我們就讓他入法政府負最終的責任希望這個到時候"},{"start":6735.332,"end":6746.159,"text":"討論的時候大家來支持這樣的修法那另外一個我要問的是極端氣候底下的這個熱危害的部分因為這個部分的確是你可以看到具體的數字2023跟2024年比較起來6、7、8月份這個熱傷害就診人數其實都是呈現一個上升的趨勢"},{"start":6755.425,"end":6766.962,"text":"因為大家都可以看到現在極端氣候到了夏天可能外面是38度 36度在那樣的一個工作場域工作真的對於勞工的健康會產生很大的危害"},{"start":6767.748,"end":6779.88,"text":"那你們自己專屬呢做的勞檢喔其實在那個戶外作業比較高風險的事業單位去勞檢那就會發現說這個一年比一年高2021年22年這個違規比例是三成然後2023年呢"},{"start":6785.871,"end":6807.426,"text":"其實已經來到了73%就是那個比例真的是蠻高的也代表說我們的雇主在這個部分他其實是忽略的你該有一些降溫的措施可能沒有做或者是說真的這個勞工很不舒服的時候應該其實要立刻就是有一些健康的這個風險要立刻讓他休息他可能也沒有那麼的關注那這一塊這個勞動部你們有沒有更積極的改善措施"},{"start":6812.065,"end":6834.073,"text":"因為如果我們看到這個去年是這麼高高達73%的違規那幾乎是很多這個高風險單位都沒有做到位啊七成三是蠻高的比例你們打算怎麼做這件事情你們有一個專案在檢討嗎是跟跟網友說明其實就目前整體的氣候邊界趨勢來看未來的溫度恐怕還會持續的在升高"},{"start":6835.013,"end":6856.766,"text":"所以當企務不斷升高的時候我想針對這個高風險熱而害的這個問題我們一定是需要花更多的資源跟力氣再去防這個去預防這件事情那我們當然現在是用職業安全的相關的措施那需要求雇主要實施可是的確沒有錯現在雇主對這方面尤其是戶外工作的雇主對這事情的意識不足"},{"start":6857.586,"end":6877.632,"text":"所以我想我們會第一個我們還是會加強宣導但是第二個不會只靠宣導包括我們的勞動檢查我想我們會有更多的能量放在這個地方對那是希望因為真的是如果他不去好好的面對這個問題的話我覺得未來確實在氣溫更高以後可能會有更多勞工的責任風險會是在這個地方發生這是我們很不樂見的事情"},{"start":6878.049,"end":6904.255,"text":"好我希望這個部分這個勞動部要把他視為是一個重要的因為他危急的就是勞工的就會越來越危急對他的健康因為有些中暑是很嚴重的他可能會因為這樣子喪命所以這個部分我希望你們一個部分是加強你們的勞檢一方面就是也很具體的請專家去研議一些他具體應該有效在這樣的一個作業環境裡面如何有效去降溫"},{"start":6905.035,"end":6930.723,"text":"或是更好的防護措施去協助勞工的一些方案另外一個就是允許勞工他在一旦他一反應有不舒服他應該就可以有立刻去停工的這樣一個權利我覺得這幾項你們應該都要做一個更好的落實好不好好 剛剛我也說就是說包括可能現場的座位包括要設計休息的場所能夠讓勞工有地方可以去休息那這個休息的場所的設計跟規劃我想這會是在我們整體檢查的範圍內OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":6937.062,"end":6937.526,"text":"好 謝謝 先休息"},{"start":7743.615,"end":7744.536,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 請黃修昂委員來做詢問謝謝主席 我們請部長來 有請部長"},{"start":7764.374,"end":7791.223,"text":"部長好 部長這個我首先先問一下就是說我們在去年通過就是80歲以上免巴釋量表那通過之後一般的民眾以為就是說這個法通過之後就可以這個80歲申請這個免巴釋量表要申請這個外籍看護工那我想請教就是說這個法通過之後那相關的配套應該在勞動部這邊應該"},{"start":7793.945,"end":7801.037,"text":"有一些相關的配套嗎那預計這樣子的80歲免巴士量表預計是什麼時候可以開始"},{"start":7803.211,"end":7830.064,"text":"其實當時舊武法的46條修法三讀通過後其實有很配套其實是蠻龐雜的工作那包括其實因為案件量會大幅增加所以我們也要協助地方政府包括人力的增加包括要有所訓練那也包括我們要跟海外的來源國來討論增加引進這個移工的來源的量"},{"start":7831.064,"end":7851.381,"text":"那也包括我們相關的法規系統的修訂甚至有些地方甚至還需要空間上面都需要做出改變所以我們原本是預計我們是預計大概六個月的時間所以我們預計到七月底比較能夠上路但是因為如果你不把這些相關的配套給做好的話這個很可能會對於這個移工的"},{"start":7852.042,"end":7876.67,"text":"聘僱的市場造成很大的衝擊跟混亂甚至會有很多其實我們現在陸續聽到其實有一些重症的家庭現在已經在擔心其實未來要聘僱到移工會更困難這也是為什麼我們在這裡面一定要希望能夠去設計一個重症跟一般分流的機制讓重症的家庭能希望能夠減少這個聘僱相關的時間成本跟阻礙"},{"start":7877.91,"end":7891.638,"text":"那這個是一般的民眾他們以為說這個法通過之後那其實還有一些相關的配套措施那就是預計在7月就可以預計7月底接下來我想請教就是說在這個禮拜就5月20那應該是算下禮拜就是台北國際電腦展那大家在"},{"start":7905.445,"end":7920.771,"text":"看到就是說這一次的主題有很多就譬如說聚焦在智慧運算機器人 次世代科技未來移動等主題我想請教就是說勞動部在AI浪潮下勞動部的角色是什麼"},{"start":7921.431,"end":7945.282,"text":"那其實很多人擔心不論是藍領或白領會擔心就是說這樣子AI的浪潮那會不會變成說這個有一些工作可能會被這個機器人所取代不論是白領或藍領都有可能被這個機器人所取代那我不知道說勞動部針對這一部分你們有什麼樣的因應措施"},{"start":7946.403,"end":7969.117,"text":"因為現在對於AI的應用的普及度越來越高那也在很多的層面都有應用那可是確實AI對於勞工的工作的影響可能會有好幾個不同的向度那有些人會認為AI其實也好像可以來協助克服一些缺工的問題或者是讓這個很多目前是可以讓這個"},{"start":7970.958,"end":7986.607,"text":"很多的職場或很多企業的運作更有效率可是他可能也會取代一些低技術的勞工目前看到的這種可能性所以他的影響的層面是很多的我想這些議題勞工部我們其實都跟相關的專業者在"},{"start":7987.668,"end":8001.927,"text":"研擬在研討中那但是我們也在一直在觀察接下來AI的整體的發展那因為具體的發展的情境可能還是要跟著這個發展的狀況那我們可以當然可以做一些預判但是"},{"start":8004.874,"end":8022.53,"text":"這個會是國際上面我想很多的不管是很多國家的勞動部會或者是勞動部門其實都非常嚴肅跟審慎在應對的一個新的浪潮其實我之前我到我們彰化這個一個公司去參觀"},{"start":8024.412,"end":8039.904,"text":"他原本他的公司可能這樣子一個廠房裡面也許有三四十個人那現在因為他導入一些機器人機器手臂所以他這個廠房這個空間裡面只需要兩個人去操作就好了"},{"start":8041.275,"end":8059.896,"text":"這個你真的會嚇一跳耶這個就全部都是用這個自動化全部都自動化然後用AI用機器人連搬運的話也是用機器人這樣去搬運所以就是說可能第一個我們這當然就是說少子化然後一般的這個企業他要找"},{"start":8060.777,"end":8084.964,"text":"缺工的議題也是蠻大的那如果說全部就是都用這個AI來取代的話其實我覺得勞動部針對這部分應該也要有一些因應措施而且這是很大的挑戰對那未來就是說可能也許不是只有勞動部可能還有其他部會也許從這個教育方面你要進入職場"},{"start":8086.567,"end":8101.105,"text":"你可能就要先做一些訓練不論是事先的訓練或者是在職訓練我覺得這個都是一個挑戰那不知道說勞動部針對這一部分你們未來會怎麼去做因為我"},{"start":8102.426,"end":8128.893,"text":"很多學生再來就是畢業季再來就是畢業季學生進入職場也許他看到的可能需要有一些操作可能電腦操作或者是機器人的操作或者是原本這家公司他如果要轉型的話也是需要在職訓練那我希望就是說勞動部你們的在職訓練應該是要"},{"start":8130.854,"end":8146.506,"text":"跟企業應該要有所配合而不是你們做你們的然後企業做企業的培訓出來的人是沒辦法在第一線去直接上工的所以我是不是可以再請這個部長針對這部分你再做一個回應"},{"start":8147.327,"end":8174.401,"text":"好 跟委員說我們其實現在也在訂定因應這個AI應用在職場上面應用的職業相關的指引那下半年我們應該會把這些指引給做好希望提供很多企業參考但第二個也是大家最關心的事情就是在職業訓練或技能訓練上面我們確實是需要更擴大的來協助其實我們有很多勞工朋友能夠掌握相關跟AI一起協作的技能"},{"start":8175.222,"end":8189.621,"text":"才有辦法去提高很多勞工他在職場裡面在工作上面的價值或者是他的適應能力所以比較能夠讓這個原本可能會變成是讓AI去取代的反而你"},{"start":8190.322,"end":8209.74,"text":"反過來是能夠去駕馭AI或駕馭這些相對應資訊化自動化的狀況那這比較能夠因應接下來這個世代在這個AI浪潮裡面的需求我想我們在一些相關的訓練裡面也必須朝向這個方向更大步的邁進我想這其實我們心裡是有準備開始要做"},{"start":8210.24,"end":8228.309,"text":"所以部長我想請教就是說那你們也會跟企業有一些聯繫溝通就是說你們未來的執訊的項目是什麼樣的類型或者是說他們可能缺工是缺什麼樣的這個職缺那未來你們開的這個執訊這個可以銜接"},{"start":8233.151,"end":8261.304,"text":"而不是說你們訓練出來的可能跟他們會有一些落差我們其實現在包括跟企業合作也包括跟其他的產業主管部會合作比方說像經濟部我們應該跟經濟部來合作跟企業合作甚至跟學校我想這多方面的合作才有辦法把這個新的這個新的勞動課題跟挑戰我覺得才能夠做比較好的因應勢必是這是一個多方的協作"},{"start":8263.065,"end":8289.723,"text":"對 其實我覺得只要到地方去看一下真的衝擊還蠻大的就是以前可能需要很多的人力類似拋光 水滸金拋光那以前可能就是要用人工去做那現在直接用機器就可以直接用機器手臂就可以直接做了所以你看到就是說人力真的減少非常的多那未來我們這樣子的這個就業市場"},{"start":8291.004,"end":8309.739,"text":"或者是會不會因為這樣子然後被這個機器人取代或被取代那當然剛剛部長有講的就是說我們希望就是說這個AI是來輔助我們讓我們的工作能夠更有效率而不是說我們的這個工作會被這個機器人所取代"},{"start":8310.816,"end":8338.293,"text":"我從勞工部角度來說我們認為這個AI應用的浪潮跟影響是不是一定會發生那現在的我們能夠做的是我們要強化我們去因應跟適應他的能力甚至能夠駕馭他的能力我想我們態度我們很難去去清純僥倖說這個對於就業的衝擊不會發生我們大概不能這樣去思考了所以我們其實現在在強化我們其實對勞工AI能力的訓練那"},{"start":8339.594,"end":8355.007,"text":"目前這一兩年下來其實也蠻有成效的我們其實每年訓練的人數也超過一萬人以上可是我們希望未來還有機會可以更多甚至更多方來合作是我剛才說的好 我們希望因為台灣一直覺得說台灣是一個AI的國家這個說不論是我們從台積電半導體什麼就是大家會覺得說應該是要從我們自己本身怎麼樣讓我們的這個台灣成為一個科技島"},{"start":8369.418,"end":8388.873,"text":"那當然也不能因為這樣子然後造成這個不論是白領或藍領的這個失業率增加嘛是所以我們希望勞動部這邊應該也是要有一個跨部會的合作而不是只有勞動部勞動部其實也沒那麼偉大啦還有做的工作很多所以應該也是要跨部會的去合作是好不好好 謝謝王美"},{"start":8405.575,"end":8432.179,"text":"好 接下來請劉建國委員發言好 謝謝主席 有請黃部長請部長劉仁浩 部長好 部長可不可以說明大聲解釋一下什麼叫自愛然行跟執行自愛這應該是同樣的意思吧 應該是同樣的意思"},{"start":8434.194,"end":8439.335,"text":"摯愛男性跟執行摯愛我覺得差不多的意思沒有牽扯順序"},{"start":8440.492,"end":8467.159,"text":"沒有一個是尚未啟動感覺上整個計畫就是就像我們在審查預算的過程裡面跟櫃部櫃單位綁了任何的條件那這個條件基本上就會讓你們感覺是自愛然行所以我們就會做這樣的一個回應那另外一個是應該是整個預算通過之後可能在執行上出了一些問題叫做執行的自愛所以這兩個應該"},{"start":8468.999,"end":8495.863,"text":"應該是不太一樣的意思嘛對不對就可能放在不同的語境裡面比較能夠去看出他意思的差別就不叫做放在不同的語境嘛應該是在整個執行的面向裡面一個是知道這個計畫這樣做出來可能會很難去執行那另外一個是可能執行到10%、5%就覺得在執行不下去才會叫執行之愛嘛"},{"start":8497.352,"end":8516.189,"text":"我這樣解釋你能不能接受我可以接受可以來理解委員的意思因為我怕你以前當委員的時候大家的這個理解都一致但是你當了部長之後跟我們的理解上就有顯著落差我很擔心這樣那這樣的溝通上顯然會有溝通上的摯愛"},{"start":8518.852,"end":8528.881,"text":"為什麼這麼講 因為剛剛黃修昂委員有特別提到80歲以上免巴士量表這件事情你說7月就可以如期來實施你確定"},{"start":8530.5,"end":8555.387,"text":"7月下旬7月下旬我們會還是會讓他上路是可是上路的過程裡面其實還是會我剛有補充上路的過程裡面還是會造成一些衝擊但當然我們現在的配套是希望減少這些為減少衝擊做一些努力可是確實這個法的修法通過就是對於這些重症的家庭我們就目前來預判的話還是會產生衝擊的是衝擊還是自愛"},{"start":8559.142,"end":8564.221,"text":"我們認為會先有衝擊最後就變成自然燃刑是不是這樣"},{"start":8566.328,"end":8590.858,"text":"我要提醒啦好不好部長因為剛剛特別提到很多面向你都必須要去做應變了嘛對不對人力的培訓行政上的一些措施然後還有這個外籍康復的來源國的供給然後還有這個需求者提出了相關的這些這個輕症的重症的正常的亞健康的這樣的需求你們有評估過嗎"},{"start":8592.532,"end":8610.618,"text":"比如說在7月下旬你開始實施的時候你可能會面對到提出申請的這個量對照過去的平均的量可能會增加多少的這樣的一個差異我們目前推估是可能會在很快的速度裡面可能會增加也許10萬這樣的量"},{"start":8613.159,"end":8631.549,"text":"對照以前的差異是差了幾倍這個增加當然很這個增加的幅度當然很大但是我是說這個所謂的很快不一定是那個當下馬上就會來可是我們認為它增加的速度會很快你們足以因應現在就是在為因應或者減少衝擊做整備對我希望是這樣我們不要執行到不到一個月時間就產生了很多的不可"},{"start":8642.833,"end":8656.417,"text":"不可逆的傷害啦還是讓人民百姓對這個政策產生很大的這樣的一個挑戰跟疑慮啦所以已經80歲以上就可以免巴士量表了那為什麼這麼難申請那這個政策的使然那執行的單位要如何去應應要如何去說明這個你們有沒有想過"},{"start":8670.409,"end":8697.248,"text":"現在是當然現在是在就是在規劃可是確實就是他一開始出來的量我們預計到會很大那這個很大在原本的比方說大概21萬的這個看護工的比例裡面他其實他的幅度真的是很大的所以這是我們說的那個衝擊衝擊可能會衝擊到重症確實也會有可能會有一些這個來想要來申請的民眾他在申請的到他時間上面會會"},{"start":8700.17,"end":8719.683,"text":"可能一開始的時候那我就簡單請教部長衝擊到重症你如何因應現在當然我們現在在因應的就是說把重症跟這個部分給分流可是我一樣還是說其實我們現在陸陸續續都聽到很多在重症的家庭看護工現在已經表達他們是不是未來有機會可以到"},{"start":8720.143,"end":8741.772,"text":"比較輕症的或者是80歲以上免巴氏量表的這些健康的家庭裡面去工作其實這樣的聲音已經陸陸續續出來這是我們很擔心的地方因為7月中旬的下旬你們就要實施了嘛對不對所以我是現在已經五月中旬了不到兩個月時間我希望你們可能要做完事的具備"},{"start":8743.413,"end":8763.597,"text":"那第二件事情我再請教部長我也在這個委員會昨天請教彭部長然後彭部長這邊有提出了相關的一些計畫跟報告他就說環境部發布綠領人才就業的趨勢報告2024平均每月徵求的2.2萬名的綠領人才8年的他的標速成長會達到3.29倍"},{"start":8766.77,"end":8784.524,"text":"這個AI人才的缺口甚至還會超越喔甚至還會超越那個博文部長也這樣認為說未來隨著法規屈原國際這個減碳壓力升高預估未來五年內綠林子缺將有一到三倍的成長空間市場對於具備這個碳管理的"},{"start":8786.205,"end":8814.134,"text":"與減排知識的人才需求持續增加所以環境部在今年3月成立的這個敬禮綠領人才的培育聯盟在北中南東四個區域成立的這個區域培育中心藉由這個國內的大專院校讓民眾可以就近的來接受敬禮綠領人才培訓的課程4月26號就已經啟動了第一班了在台師大然後第一班的學員平均的年齡37歲社會人士有八成以上據說是學位以上的有達7、38"},{"start":8815.454,"end":8840.467,"text":"所以只有工程師業務人員行政助理會計總務等等顯示這個勞工群組對這樣的課程有高度的興趣而且願意進修但是這個勞動部好像跟環境部目前相關的課程都還沒有進行對接應該是環境部有相關的課程勞動部有相關的課程那我們接下來預計我們其實在這些課程或者是合作班訓上面要來進行合作"},{"start":8841.647,"end":8866.938,"text":"對我時間有限齁我昨天問彭部長的時候他是這麼打呼我啦齁我請教他部長這個對失業的勞工有沒有很大的幫助啦彭部長回答我是非常大的幫助是這樣是對那你們勞動部又有一個像產業人才的投資計畫的資源可以補助勞工參訓80%到100%的訓練費用每人喔每年三年內最高可以補助到10萬塊是好"},{"start":8868.584,"end":8895.502,"text":"那你們櫃部跟這個環境部也有對談喔也談了4次了之前有談過可是 談了4次了其實在近期會跟捧場我們會針對就是變成是不是近期啦 你們明天就見面了嘛 是是是你們底下幕僚可以談了4次然後你們的那個勞洛署主秘要跟我講說錢不是問題是相關細節還沒有談妥是 我們在討論因為這包括要跟民間團體進行一些合作"},{"start":8896.613,"end":8909.708,"text":"我是覺得這速度有點慢了啦這樣的因應作為是有點不太及格啦當然是前面有問題細節還談不出來然後你的近期是明天就要見面的那是不是明天就可以談出來"},{"start":8912.485,"end":8931.401,"text":"因為你們兩個都在部會也算是中心位的應該行動力還有智慧都非常高的我們會希望能夠擴大合作現在我們是希望能夠擴大合作而且其實會有一些資源我們不希望重複浪費所以其實這個合作會互相的支援黃部長答應我一個星期內應該就可以跟你談出來的那你能不能一併答應"},{"start":8932.537,"end":8961.875,"text":"可以啊可以好 謝謝他說一個星期是不是對 沒有錯在這邊講話都不能有絲毫的這個虛假跟作為是好 那就大家都一個星期好 謝謝然後勞動部在5月4號又一篇報導一篇新聞是這麼講台灣雙子化趨勢越來越明顯為了補足勞動力的缺口勞動部所訂的中高齡的群組那未來四年就是今年開始為期四年目標每年要增加12萬的中高齡及高齡者續留或從晚職長"},{"start":8962.776,"end":8965.44,"text":"換言之是你要增加48萬的中高齡勞動大軍你這48萬怎麼來怎麼推估的"},{"start":8971.363,"end":8991.233,"text":"我給你一個非常開的計畫 勞動部目前的計畫是如果僱主繼續僱用借齡的退休勞工勞動部會提供僱主前六個月每月補助1.3萬第七到十八個月補助到每月1.5萬那僱主每小時花給七十代八十元最高25.8萬要繼續來僱用這個高齡者促進整個經驗傳承與世代合作對不對沒有錯嗎這期一嘛好多少人"},{"start":9001.153,"end":9017.351,"text":"這個多少人這個目前補助多少人已經在執行了目前你們四年要增加到48萬嘛一年就要12萬嘛那你這個項目裡面你現在目前為止執行了多少人數"},{"start":9018.922,"end":9033.029,"text":"目前要增加每年要重返職場的中高齡十二萬的目標那去年度一百一十三年有達到十二萬五千人十二萬五千人就超標了對不對那我又跟你肯定嘛"},{"start":9036.058,"end":9057.292,"text":"但是在執行相關的就業促進津貼的措施因為相關的就業促進津貼措施有相關的一些條件還有補助的一些內容我知道你們有很多項目很多計畫對不對好那去年有達標對不對但是就業津貼的部分仍在持續加強因為就業津貼補助有多少人是人數"},{"start":9059.793,"end":9078.612,"text":"以55歲以上的就業租促進津貼的獎勵措施 去年度是執行1050人1050人去年度但是他是55歲以上對嘛 55歲嘛我現在是你們自己講的48萬的中高齡勞動大軍"},{"start":9083.591,"end":9107.537,"text":"然後你這個計畫裡面才一千多人我跟各位說明其實就是說其實我們希望能夠讓中高齡能夠重新進入到職場的這個數字是有可是我們其實在發出我們相關的這個補助獎補助的人數確實是比較少那這部分我也請署長那新任的署長來針對這部分必須做出檢討"},{"start":9110.098,"end":9127.491,"text":"部長你先聽我再講一個計畫補助僱主繼續僱用高齡者預計預計補助這是在114年度的救援基金裡面要動用一個辦理特定對象就會促進津貼及相關僱用講述津貼的6.85億是這麼寫嗎預計補助一樣是1000多人啦1498我們估計算1500嘛然後補助僱主僱用退休高齡者傳承這個專業技術及經驗38家"},{"start":9135.437,"end":9162.245,"text":"補助僱主辦理勞工退休後再就業準備的協助措施有30加編的2.74億嘛沒有錯嘛對不對好那如果要以這一項來加總坦白講其實他一年1500四年才6000也佔你這個48萬人的1.6%而已對所以就是我們其實相關的編列的經費的資源其實我們的執行率確實是有需要檢討的地方"},{"start":9163.931,"end":9191.077,"text":"45歲到65歲的中高齡除了失業還有失衡外本來還在職場如果依照內政部的資料是應該每年約有幾十萬65歲屆齡的退休高齡人口尤其今年跟明年是退休的退休潮的高峰怎麼讓他們屆齡完之後還留在職場然後從你的預算面向去顯示基本上是很衝突的落差值是非常大的"},{"start":9192.949,"end":9207.908,"text":"我們的部署繼續僱用高齡者的這個獎勵措施目的就是希望借齡的勞工朋友能夠職場續航然後延緩退休所以這支計畫主要就是希望能夠補助繼續僱用的高齡者"},{"start":9210.371,"end":9218.162,"text":"鼓勵雇主禁用那我們會持續今年度會持續加強來推動我現在不敢你聽我這跟他對話應該你應該知道我要點出什麼問題"},{"start":9222.878,"end":9247.872,"text":"好 那第三個齁時間超過很多對不起齁一樣在救安基金裡面有編列一個辦理繼續僱用高齡者及重高齡者的相關補助業務但當時只編列了兩千多萬同時又辦理了五十五的這個這個壯士代這個壯士代的名稱你們要繼續用嗎就因為促進獎勵措施預計補助三千人然後框了編列了1.35億"},{"start":9250.319,"end":9267.657,"text":"那個跟跟留言說明吼關於壯世代三個字因為這個名詞是去年在預算編列的時候但是我們其實有說未來接下來在勞動部的計劃裡面我們會把壯世代這三個字因為他這三個會這個這個名詞的使用比較爭議可是事情我們會繼續做"},{"start":9269.062,"end":9288.529,"text":"但是這三個字使用我們會來做修正那剛剛在講到確實我們其實在這幾在這幾支計劃裡面我們我們相關的預算的執行其實我都認為是有很大必須改進的空間很大必須改進的空間嘛對不對是就是這個執行上是不是"},{"start":9289.549,"end":9308.195,"text":"執行障礙包括我們可能一些條件的設定包括對象的對象的設定包括條件的設定包括我們要怎麼樣子來協助這些需要幫助的中高齡的朋友可以走完然後最後能夠達到政策的目標然後這部分我們其實都是請我請發案署"},{"start":9309.671,"end":9328.286,"text":"也不只這個計畫啦 其實我們做整體的我剛才說我們會做一個整體的總體檢部長就很清楚問題的所在了嘛 對不對這一個有一點 算是非常破碎嘛三個連連組 軍組支援上基本上是非常的分散啦而且不集中 然後整個的補助好像看起來"},{"start":9329.267,"end":9346.391,"text":"很零很零碎啦很零碎那如果要去做整個統計的這些資料其實是會會被挑戰的啦或者互相其實會有競合然後會互相影響效應其實這些事情我們都發現所以這個檢討不是檢討單一支計畫是要做整體的檢討甚至要不要做計畫的整併"},{"start":9349.152,"end":9368.429,"text":"那最正確的 我就是希望部長回答這句話所以這樣 我就要求勞動部一周內針對這個進營的利益人才的培訓課程同時可以嚴厲勞工的進修及失業勞工的補助計畫是其一那其二是針對這個促進高齡者續留或從晚滋長的計畫勞動部應該提出更具體的這個流竄的數據及方案"},{"start":9369.95,"end":9386.204,"text":"也希望一周內可以提出監討方案齁最後是協助45歲到65歲的資源應該是要其中共用啦希望65歲以上的退休勞工成長資源也必須要再擴大增加但是這個必須就是要重新盤點嘛齁 重新瞭解到"},{"start":9386.724,"end":9411.686,"text":"各個計畫執行的狀態才有辦法從部長剛剛講的把問題點出來之後再去做修正再去做調整劉仁針對你這三點第一點沒有問題我們會來規劃但是第二點確實需要多一點時間因為剛剛說他不是單一支計畫的檢討他可能是一整個計畫相關的計畫都需要一併檢討所以真的需要多一點時間時間由部長講三個月好不好"},{"start":9413.664,"end":9432.859,"text":"買吧三個月因為我是請他們做總體檢是因為新的署長上來後我是請他針對這些就業計畫做總體檢所以確實需要整體的時間會比較多也希望比較周全好三個月就三個月應部長所講那最後一點應該也沒有多大問題吧是我們就是針對這個方向來做檢討好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":9442.23,"end":9444.872,"text":"好 接下來請林淑芬委員發言好 現在主席 是不是請我們洪部長 請洪部長林委員好部長 AI政夯 這個黃仁勳來台灣"},{"start":9470.273,"end":9485.254,"text":"AI相關的股票也很夯但是跟就業有關的AI的議題也很夯現在很多大學生大家都覺得大學生就是產業後備軍的養成所雖然我不贊成是這樣子"},{"start":9486.28,"end":9503.508,"text":"但是現在說大學的確就變成是產業後備軍的培訓所那大學生很多都用ChatGPD或是Notion或是Gemini這種網站作為學習的輔助的工具那我現在要討論的議題就是我報導過的就是AI廣泛應用在人資管理系統還有數位轉型連企業的組織都將AI應用在營運管理和決策當中"},{"start":9514.813,"end":9542.851,"text":"那這種狀況裡面整個典範可能會創造一出這個企業經營上的典範的轉移那根據2024年人資FBI的報告2023年你知道嗎企業在招募人才的過程當中從通知面試到成為新進員工到職整體平均的人才招募天數花了幾天你要不要猜猜看"},{"start":9544.874,"end":9567.991,"text":"你猜猜看嘛兩天2023年你招募一個人選並一個人面試他到他來上班就職是花了54.4天平均招募一個一般的員工花48.2天主管人員主管職的人員花更長的時間要66.4天"},{"start":9570.713,"end":9587.773,"text":"那這幾年都要講缺工缺工那所以大家投地的履歷數量變多那人資在徵才方面的工作量也變多那況且現在幾乎都是線上徵才作業作為企業攬才的主要管道不只是要求這個"},{"start":9589.475,"end":9612.052,"text":"求職的人會用AI寫履歷現在連人資都使用AI對履歷做篩選篩選履歷所以這個是幾乎我說人資管理上的典範的轉移這個是一個很需要思考的問題那你知道在人資管理上有什麼樣比較主流的這個系統"},{"start":9614.574,"end":9619.098,"text":"來應徵追蹤AI篩選這些人才嗎你有聽過任何任何任何的系統或應用程式嗎有但是我說這個問題確實沒有你講一個來聽聽看你說有你都說有了我就聽你講講看因為事實上我不太知道"},{"start":9642.096,"end":9670.543,"text":"就是我們都知道我們我們知道其實因為這段時間跟一些人質但他們讓我們知道說他們現在確實現在都用AI做一些面試跟履歷表篩選的工具對對啦我說那你們用什麼系統我沒有特別問他們個別是用什麼系統所以你沒聽過我也沒聽過我是為了質詢然後才去助理才去找的你知道現在一個ATS是人力資源的應用程式那其實是協助企業用數位的方式來管理招募還有雇用工作的軟體"},{"start":9671.463,"end":9678.026,"text":"那許多企業為了精簡人事成本提升招募的效率剛剛講了平均54.4天多沒有效率啊不可思議我們聽到都覺得不可思議部長用AI以後會大幅縮短到OK那現在導入ATS然後AI技術進行履歷的掃描和分析可以在初步的階段就出塞符合調節的應徵者"},{"start":9701.617,"end":9724.458,"text":"節省很多時間 節省很多人資而且確保篩選標準的一致性而只有分數超過門檻的履歷才會送到人資的手上進行第二階段或是下一階段這個就是ATS 但是ATS主要是要做英文履歷為主但是我是要舉這個 我不是要講ATS 我是要講"},{"start":9725.419,"end":9753.129,"text":"AI的技術正在改變招募和人才管理的生態所以我一直在講整個典範要轉移可是這麼大的一個問題大家思考的很廣企業人資作業導入異化的比例在逐年的成長AI的技術取代了過去的人事行政管理可能薪酬管理數位化的線上學習平台"},{"start":9753.809,"end":9781.795,"text":"那人資的管理系統會導入自動化的處理員工的數據像是員工的入職離職休假申請等程序那同時呢人事行政管理的數位化也提供了管理階層即時的數據分析然後會讓管理階層好的運用管理階層可以更了解員工的需求和行為那AI會收集大量的員工的數據"},{"start":9783.176,"end":9798.916,"text":"會進行分析預測然後讓企業去發現他們管理面的潛在的問題所以他可以很精準的可能可以相對於沒有AI的時代精準的去訂出他的培訓計畫他的薪酬政策"},{"start":9799.617,"end":9813.494,"text":"符合員工的期待然後提升員工的滿意度和留任率當然更可能會讓老闆很滿意所以我們才問你說AI技術能夠取代人之最業的項目還有哪些部長你覺得呢"},{"start":9818.458,"end":9831.803,"text":"沒思考過應該是說我們在跟因為我在我們部裡面以後其實我們也跟很多的人在做進一步的座談那他們都跟我們講到說他們現在其實確實大幅的"},{"start":9833.324,"end":9847.355,"text":"在更多的使用AI的工具那蠻多在跟我們在討論的時候是當然談到訓練的問題包括一些招募的問題那也談到工具沒關係我問你是說接下來人資管理上面要面臨什麼挑戰那我問你最簡單的現在有多少比例的這個企業他們已經導入了AI的人資管理模式"},{"start":9858.91,"end":9875.456,"text":"運用AI然後你有沒有做過調查和統計你有沒有了解這些數據大企業有多少人已經在使用AI在做人資的管理我們沒有直接去做這個我們確實還沒有這部分去做統計可是我們有觀察到這個現象也在發生"},{"start":9876.801,"end":9881.403,"text":"但是我有一份來自於勞動部 台灣就業通的統計資料2024 AI世代求財條件大調查讓就業通的會員 你們自己的網站上的會員自行填寫回收樣本數578份 整理後有效的樣本數是533份"},{"start":9898.47,"end":9903.294,"text":"有3%的企業已經使用AI作為面試的輔具工具來徵才而有34.3%的企業考慮未來要使用如果把統計範圍擴大到全台如果把這個樣本"},{"start":9913.923,"end":9938.899,"text":"如果它可以算是精準的話擴及到全台的所有的企業你會發現說可能使用普及率相當相當的高現在進行是已經使用AI面試工具在徵選人才那AI的這麼的普遍化的使用還有市場的挑戰"},{"start":9940.22,"end":9945.063,"text":"會很多面 那就就業市場 我要問你部長問題會是什麼委員剛剛說的那個數據其實應該是在桃園就業通上面的統計可是我自己認為實際上面的數據可能甚至比在就業通上面的數據來得更高對啦 但我要問你是這麼廣泛這麼高比例的使用那對就業市場的挑戰是什麼"},{"start":9964.033,"end":9980.155,"text":"他可能會產生的問題是什麼我們現在有幾個議題正在討論第一個這會有產生員工監控的問題包括隱私權的問題那也有包括其實這裡面因為用AI的使用裡面他可能會不斷的複製跟加深某些主流的"},{"start":9980.675,"end":9998.486,"text":"偏見或刻板意見的這個問題會在AI裡面發生我們這都看到你如果大量的用這樣子的AI的工具來招募的話看起來很方便或者是時間會縮短甚至減少很多你人資資源的投入可是它反而會複製了沒錯這件事情這是大家比較擔心的沒錯"},{"start":9999.286,"end":10022.786,"text":"AI的人質管理系統它的這個提升的效率但它的存在的這一些弊端它的模式都是由既有的資料庫的檔案訓練的AI的資料庫的數據作為評斷的標準它雖然很有效可是不要忘了這麼多的數據如果數據本身就存在著對於性別 對於年齡對於這個相當的偏見和這個喜好"},{"start":10026.889,"end":10041.352,"text":"那這個東西你為他的數據本身就存在這些偏見和喜好那他養出來的他篩選的時候他就會有不公平的狀況會產生所以這些偏見喜好"},{"start":10042.173,"end":10063.166,"text":"然後會排除掉你如果不在偏好的範圍內的履歷可能就會被直接淘汰掉了所以AI是訓練的可是你的Data本身存在歧視偏見然後存在特殊喜好如果你是他歧視的如果你是他偏見的如果你不是他特殊喜好的"},{"start":10063.866,"end":10088.433,"text":"在這種狀況裡面 你在關鍵字匹配篩選的時候好的履歷 然後你的關鍵字不符合的時候可能就被排除在外了在這種狀況裡面呢 你知道他們的偏見最大最主要的 主流的觀點的喜好和偏見歧視會產生在哪幾個變相嗎"},{"start":10090.393,"end":10117.492,"text":"就我知道是性別跟年齡沒錯性別跟年齡所以你們說要面對這個問題你們剛才回答說要訂出三個指引因應AI時代的來臨使用AI作為面試工具那對人資管理影響這麼大會有對性別的對年齡的歧視這麼嚴重那請問你們你們訂了三個指引訂了什麼指引"},{"start":10118.78,"end":10131.462,"text":"來 你來回答沒關係各位報告 其中一個指引是就業歧視的部分第二指引是隱私權保護的部分什麼保護隱私權隱私權對 第三個是在勞資關係裡面在使用AI上的一個指引"},{"start":10132.793,"end":10157.09,"text":"好 那跟我想 跟我想大家想的都最基本的 都是一樣的就是說啊人資部門經常處理敏感的員工的資訊收賺證 滯號 薪資 明細 銀行 賬戶如果缺乏嚴格的資料保護規範那種防範的機制可能會被濫用 而且會外流外洩如果你要使用AI 那你相對的資訊安全的程度你要克責一個企業什麼責任那"},{"start":10160.633,"end":10188.454,"text":"這個在美國歐盟的法令都要求如果使用自動聘僱決策工具你要做資訊揭露你要招募企業招募勞動管理績效評估離職預測管理解僱上都衍生風險你用了這麼多的這些數據你要讓每一個被收集資訊的人當然要有知情權要有同意權然後要有告知"},{"start":10190.015,"end":10217.643,"text":"取得每個人同意所以綜合這些看法我們要釐清AI的真實使用的情形對勞動者產生的影響可是還有一個不要忘了AI的監控企業在資料的收集和監測已經可能導致過度干預到員工的個人隱私造成員工心理上的不良反應但現在新型態的監測遠端控制技術"},{"start":10218.823,"end":10231.166,"text":"透過接蹤員工在電腦螢幕前和鍵盤活動計算員工的投入的時間 衡量他的生產力像是StopCop還有這個TerraMindHopStopCoverControlTimeDoctor"},{"start":10239.835,"end":10256.716,"text":"企業廣泛的在使用這種監控員工在螢幕使用的這種軟體系統他追蹤員工的電腦螢幕會分析被監控的員工然後以利於主管評估員工的工作效率那這些要怎麼管理"},{"start":10258.001,"end":10287.21,"text":"你們想過了嗎?要怎麼?因為這部分其實就是剛剛我有說到說這裡面衍生這個數據員工監控的問題你們剛剛的三個指引沒有涉及到這一部分那我說這個部分其實就是關於這個相關的監控跟數據控制所帶來的隱私的部分所以他這個部分的切入點會比較是你們的三個指引都沒有關係到我剛剛講的這個問題他比較是跟隱私的這個部分高度相關的"},{"start":10288.09,"end":10295.116,"text":"對啊 所以你們三個指引是不夠的還有這方面要怎麼處理我想我們可以來針對我們三個指引的範疇再來 第二AI的運用在勞資關係上被討論最多的重點是道德 倫理的問題尤其是將AI導入工作職場通常是組織的高層片面做決定的"},{"start":10309.907,"end":10328.674,"text":"沒有在導入前跟員工討論的所以最主要的還是在勞資溝通和協商上如何成為AI導入的和必須應用的這個路徑我們在講說勞資協商可是這個AI工具就是偏偏沒有勞資協商"},{"start":10330.555,"end":10351.317,"text":"它破壞了企業裡面最核心的我們普遍認為企業的經營管理是需要更多的更大量的勞資共管共同協議的可是你在AI的組織內的AI的運用相對的是弱化勞資的溝通和共識"},{"start":10352.694,"end":10382.107,"text":"那這部分對於我們要往前進的勞資關係的協調溝通共識協商它是破壞的而且是走回頭路的那要怎麼因應我想確實AI的使用在勞資關係裡面尤其是在導入前後有沒有經過勞資協商的同意這是接下來在勞資關係裡面的一個很大的挑戰所以這也是為什麼我們其實有一個指引是在處理這件事情的原因"},{"start":10382.267,"end":10399.141,"text":"你們的指引有處理到這個程序嗎就是處理這件事情好那我現在講說你們還有一個委託研究報告就是提到對於AI技術在勞動市場的實際應用進行研究和數據的蒐集在法制面要建立指引那其實"},{"start":10402.064,"end":10408.51,"text":"就職場AI的使用目前是沒有規範那你們現在未來要定職域嗎但是呢在個人數據方面我們剛剛講要有知情權要得到每一個人的同意權然後要告知我這個都是使用AI在管理的"},{"start":10419.241,"end":10423.443,"text":"那第三個現有的隱私保護措施是不足的剛剛有討論過那要不要有外部監督機制剛剛講的是說你有指引但是僅限於企業內部的監督我們需不需要引進外部的監督我們需不需要訂出法律上的處分法則沒有法則等於是指引不好的指引只有道德上的規範"},{"start":10447.512,"end":10470.543,"text":"沒有處罰的罰則 指引等於形同虛設那法律配套是什麼我想我們相關的在法規面的部分我們都願意一併來盤點跟檢討啦我跟你講部長我知道啦其實我知道 你也不知道啦我也不是很知道啦那我今天的質詢是要告訴你"},{"start":10471.483,"end":10488.979,"text":"這件事情很嚴重衝擊到整個企業業界內部的這個管理人資管理衝擊到勞資關係衝擊到相當相當大的勞動市場對勞動者的偏見歧視"},{"start":10490.56,"end":10519.311,"text":"那其實對中高齡勞工很不利在性別上的歧視也一樣不利所以這個事情是我現在告訴你你現在開始要花更多時間投入更多資源要在法制面在執行面要真的要開始好好的思考了好 謝謝謝謝林委員也謝謝部長這個確實要快速應用接下來請王振旭委員來做選擇"},{"start":10530.346,"end":10532.235,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們再請洪部長來 請部長"},{"start":10538.491,"end":10566.343,"text":"歐偉好 部長好剛剛聽了這個林書文委員很期待在各方面都能夠更精進尤其未來在AI的時代如何能夠讓我們的勞動朋友在他職場的這些服務的過程裡面的確是可以跟資方有更好的關係我相信這個書文委員對您的期望非常非常的高我相信您有這個能力可以把這個事情做得更好"},{"start":10567.003,"end":10582.734,"text":"那我今天就利用這個機會來跟您討論兩個問題一個就是有關於這個推動有心男性育嬰假的部分那一個就是針對這個勞工健檢跟成人健檢如何把這個資料的整合做得更為具有前瞻性"},{"start":10583.434,"end":10606.368,"text":"那第一部分就是有關於這個有心彈性育嬰假其實大家都非常關心我們未來的兒童應該像國家一樣是一個非常重要的目標透過這樣的目標跟政策的執行才會讓我們的這些年輕可以替台灣有更多的生育的機會讓少子化的危機可以快速的解除"},{"start":10607.108,"end":10631.374,"text":"那我們之前也知道這個勞動部推出的這個彈性育嬰假的這部分的示範結果也出來了那個時候大家也討論如何能夠更精進那那個時候你也提到說近期將會提這個方案跟配套的措施不過依照這個脫育籍就業政策催生聯盟他們在做調查以後以這個台北市為例"},{"start":10632.034,"end":10652.554,"text":"在2024年托嬰中心因為長病毒停課平均家長平均要請假19天最高甚至要到28天那這個過程裡面呢他們這個在就業當中的這些家長們特休假根本就不夠請所以對於這些年輕父母來講"},{"start":10653.815,"end":10683.2,"text":"如果他是雙就業或者是有這個需求的話真的會非常的辛苦因為他不得不請假那個請假要扣薪勞動目前你們也是在積極的規劃裡面所以想要請教部長就是目前目前有沒有什麼特別的進度跟未來在提案方面的一些時程那特別的是有沒有針對兩歲以下的這些小孩的受雇父母的請假需求做過相關研究"},{"start":10686.151,"end":10699.744,"text":"報告委員那有關這個目前的我們相關的案子其實都已經在做盤點規劃那針對兩歲以下的小孩的這個部分來說我們大概做過一些了解那包括他有一些"},{"start":10701.866,"end":10719.146,"text":"那個小孩要做預防注射然後有生病那還有一些包括保母臨時請假等等的這些情況他有一些需求那目前的需求大概用家庭照顧假或者是說大概搭配試假特別休假或者長一點的需求可能搭配育嬰留職停薪"},{"start":10719.546,"end":10740.984,"text":"現在有一些短天期目前為止是30天這樣的一個相關的規定來做處理所以有基本的資料可以做參考的嗎因為我們想要提出來就是說如果針對於這個兩歲以下的這些硬價有特別需求的時候那如何能夠有更嚴謹的一個"},{"start":10742.685,"end":10767.055,"text":"現況的調查讓我們知道說針對這個兩歲以下的這個小孩的受護父母他們針對於在這個過程裡面不同的性別是屬於爸爸媽媽的申請的需求呢請假時間的日數請假的原因還有很重要就是他用了哪一些的價別來透過這個需求來符合他這個請假的內容"},{"start":10767.875,"end":10789.315,"text":"那這個對未來的政策規劃是會有很大的幫助所以如果能夠在這個我們很期待就是在下個會期之前能不能有相關的這個比較屬於符合這些要求的這個調查讓我們能夠做參考的話我相信對未來部理在做政策制定的時候會有更大的幫助"},{"start":10789.815,"end":10811.125,"text":"那個跟完說明我們當然因為在正式研擬的過程我們其實也做了不少訪談可是確實比較是數量的統計上面的調查我們覺得我們可以再強化所以這部分的調查我會來請我們部裡面相關的這個研究單位我們來針對這個相關的調查我覺得我們把它再做一個更更完整的調查不是不只是執行的訪談這部分我們會來做"},{"start":10812.426,"end":10838.034,"text":"那第二個確實現在大家使用的價別裡面目前有些會使用特休可是因為特休真的是比較有限所以很多會用市價可是市價是沒有薪資的所以這也是為什麼我們也在是希望規劃是用用育嬰留庭的方式來去做因應因為育嬰留庭是相對是比較有是有薪水的是有薪水的來自薪資的補貼的"},{"start":10842.056,"end":10868.789,"text":"讓大家在請休的時候其實有比較多的經濟上面的支持的確我們現在還是在以日來請休這個方向來去做規劃跟研擬當然我們現在要在克服的事情是我們要怎麼降低對於很多企業他在排班上面的挑戰這件事情當然我們現在還在做各幾個幾個方案的研商所以這是重要的配套"},{"start":10869.509,"end":10896.221,"text":"因為我們希望能夠讓這個勞工尤其是這個育嬰的家庭能夠有比較大的彈性的空間去兼顧但同時也是希望其實可能對於一些職場因為尤其台灣其實有蠻多的企業是中小企業他在人力上面他的這個職代其實的制度不一定都這麼完整所以這個這些相對應的配套我們是在做總體的目前在規劃之中也在跟行政院討論"},{"start":10897.782,"end":10918.03,"text":"所以部長可以允諾我們在下會期之前就會有初步的這些了解的成果嗎我希望不要到下會期我希望能夠更快好就麻煩部長能夠越快越好那如果至少是兩個月左右的時間能夠看到初步成果好這是有關您第一個部分"},{"start":10918.49,"end":10943.892,"text":"因為第二個部分就是其實在今天的這個結論報告裡面有一項跟我一直長期關心的就是這些健診資料不管是勞工體檢或者是成人的這些健檢如何能夠有效的去做適當的併用我們看到就是說如果之前有希望針對於僱主可以併用結合勞工健檢跟成人體檢"},{"start":10944.813,"end":10959.898,"text":"的這些結合的話符合四項條件就能夠幫助至少可以讓這個健檢的過程可以更順利一方面可以幫助雇主來抵免部分的檢查費用同時也可以避免這個醫療資源重複浪費跟節省勞工的時間"},{"start":10964.339,"end":10985.115,"text":"這是已經行事多年的一個一個需要能夠併用的部分那目前有沒有相關的資料知道說這個企業有多少是合併的在這邊做一併的處理那參與勞工到底有多少人是這樣做那政策執行率是多少那部長你知道這個政策已經執行多久了嗎"},{"start":10987.806,"end":11009.678,"text":"跟委員報告那委員一直關心說看看我們的勞工健檢資料可不可以跟那個成人健檢資料這邊做借接那當然在法制上現在是有一個個資法限制那不然就像委員今天在簡報裡面提的目前我們是採這個鼓勵鼓勵勞工接受這個勞工健康檢查的時候鼓勵勞工就是可以將他的個資"},{"start":11011.159,"end":11018.836,"text":"這個健康檢查資料上傳到衛福部這個成人健診資料那目前還是在持續推動中就是我們在透過很多管道在做宣導"},{"start":11020.596,"end":11045.95,"text":"其實這個政策已經執行了將近20年了就是勞動部推動勞工健檢如果採納變成健檢資料是可以一致化的部分其實已經一段時間只是說我們很期待說如何能夠讓這個政策的執行可以更為周全而且是在符合相關的條件之下來做這方面的努力"},{"start":11046.67,"end":11072.148,"text":"所以這是為什麼我們一直期待希望能夠把這兩份的資料有機會做整併的地方那衛福部其實也希望能夠請各部會主動的上傳各種不同的這些健診資料不管是教育部的或其他部會所以他們是希望透過不同的這個誘因還有這個覆蓋率的了解跟法律適用的問題來提供給各部會來做參考"},{"start":11072.728,"end":11100.72,"text":"那有關於我們之前也請教過貴部有如何能夠協助這樣這個我們未來在達到健康台灣裡面很多慢性病的資料的整合做有效的運用那個時候部裡面給我們的回覆是說會提供這個去識別化的資料讓這一群將來80%的這個資料是可以匯入到未來提供我們慢性病的這些處理的一個模式"},{"start":11101.42,"end":11130.698,"text":"那可是去識別化資料當作大數據的研究是很好可是你針對個別勞工有問題的時候事實上是無法銜接的這部分我們也持續來考量那最後是希望說如果貴部跟衛福部這邊針對勞工的這些健檢資料還有成員健檢資料能夠有效的診病的話我相信我們可以達到剛剛的目標那我們去了解其實勞動部所管轄的這個勞工健檢跟"},{"start":11131.438,"end":11154.953,"text":"衛福部所處理的成人健檢它很多都是雷同或者是會重疊的所以我們很希望大家共同的努力把這些針對勞工的這種他的福利的部分我們可以有更好的一些方式來做更好的一個精進的措施那部長這邊不知道有沒有其他的想法可以給我們做參考"},{"start":11155.613,"end":11174.538,"text":"我想因為在專案法裡面的法規我們裡面要求的檢查的項目其實主要是這個職業安全的預防所以要更衛服務這邊的資料在這邊的串接我想我們是願意更衛服務來做直接的研議"},{"start":11175.418,"end":11204.767,"text":"但是這裡面可能確實也還是會涉及到一些法規上面的問題因為這些因為這些授權資料的應用其實包括他個資的使用那能不能夠用在法規上面目的外的使用這裡面可能也會有一些法規上面的議題要來做研究因為這涉及到個資我們也很難說說雖然我們手上有個資所以我想跟誰是哪一個單位跟哪一筆資料去串就怎麼串其實可能也不是這樣所以這裡面"},{"start":11205.407,"end":11226.334,"text":"可能會有一些技術上面的問題必須要去克服那這部分我們願意來跟衛福部討論非常謝謝部長這樣的回覆因為我們知道健康福利資料的運用是未來針對國人的健康是有更大的幫助的那很期待能夠透過這個不同跨部會的這些研議來解決更多的問題好 謝謝"},{"start":11230.233,"end":11233.015,"text":"好,謝謝黃委員、謝謝部長。接下來請郭國文委來做選擇。謝謝主席。有請紅部長跟基中醫藥局的蘇局長。來,有請兩位。"},{"start":11256.87,"end":11263.805,"text":"郭文豪部長好我想就教一下部長勞工的請假規則大概多久沒有改你有沒有瞭解過"},{"start":11267.802,"end":11285.979,"text":"我們其實最近在檢討112年的時候有修正過112年可能是維護的修正大部分應該是雷同部長我想這邊慎重的提醒一下因為整個社會形態的變化少子化的結果有些價別要請是不得不請"},{"start":11287.1,"end":11311.212,"text":"但是職業別的差異又差別非常的大本來在去年的時候工人員要做調整事實上也沒有調整那價別上幾乎落差非常的大我就屢屢接到一些陳情跟反應別說實務上有時候請假未必請得到假或者是不一定能夠有薪水的情況底下這價別的落差非常之大我想讓部長看一個表"},{"start":11311.832,"end":11338.635,"text":"要如何做一個讓一個勞工朋友能夠善盡孝道在少子化的情況底下有一些儀式雖然減少但是卻要花相對多的時間的情況底下是不是讓部長有一些調整的可能性就勞工朋友跟軍工教育的這個差異不論是婚教的話跟商教的部分除了有一個維護的增加這個六天的部分然後少數的項目就是祭父母祖父母的部分跟配偶父母的部分"},{"start":11339.255,"end":11351.67,"text":"那去年十月的時候我質詢的時候居然勞動部是用這個六天的差別那可以不少於公務人員的方式也是一個調整的方式或者是做一個局部的調整也是一個思考的方向不知道部長怎麼看"},{"start":11354.913,"end":11373.329,"text":"我想我針對這個議題我覺得我們是可以來做有沒有一些調整思考的研議不過確實跟公務員因為這個是相對應的薪資的部分當然是由僱主來給付那公務員的部分其實是政府給付基本上不是經常性的價別是一次性的"},{"start":11374.19,"end":11402.836,"text":"然後就這個部分其實對勞工朋友來說是相當重要的確實因為他也不是經常性會請的東西可是我覺得這些相關的演繹當然我覺得我們可以綜合來考慮各種因素我們是可以來討論這件事情請部長稍微思考一下不要用之前回覆我那種方式做一個單項的比較來回覆本席我覺得這不夠有誠意好不好那請部長好好慎重思考一下那另外一個部分呢我個人部分也收到一個陳情"},{"start":11404.056,"end":11423.833,"text":"那因為在勞動部對補助地方政府有關於這個身障者的一個救福人員的薪資的同時在設立這個地方政府的救福站的那個業務內容其實跟勞動部直屬的救福中心的業務內容其實相差無幾但是呢就地方政府的部分的薪水"},{"start":11424.714,"end":11451.741,"text":"薪資跟獎金有所調整但是勞動部直屬的這個部分卻未盡有所調整的這個空間這個部分是不是形成一種差別待遇這個部長這個問題是不是要處理一下根本說明因為之前委員就有來關心這個所以我們其實也做了檢討所以我們其實在今年的5月1號開始其實我們就有來調整包括資源重建服務的專業人員的薪資的補助這部分已經開始調整了"},{"start":11452.861,"end":11480.232,"text":"從這個月就要開始調整5月1號那速度算很快那但是我們現在因為這部分可是那個預算有既有的預算嗎其實這是來自當然是來自他的資金來自基金但是因為可能我們在薪資調整部分也不太能夠只調整某一群人他可能會跟其他的會之間聯動所以我們其他聯動的部分我們其實現在也在做相關的檢討"},{"start":11481.352,"end":11504.894,"text":"我只是主要強調的是同樣的業務內容不應該有差別待遇啦因為這個薪資的調整其實是相當敏感那這禮拜六他們要跟我陳情就不用來了嘛好那接下來 委員還是可以你還是可以跟他們談一談那你就給我一點資料OK 那個部長還有一個問題我想這個問題可能是基金應用局書局長會比較清楚一點我想書局長"},{"start":11507.284,"end":11535.33,"text":"署長我不知道我們這個整個基金運用群組有關於這個投入台股的ETF的這個額度相對國外來說的比重到底高或低我們目前有投資台股的ETF那因為我們內部對於投資個別的ETF有一個就是說佔這個發行額度有一定的比例性當然有一個配比嘛就風險的評估一定會有一個配比"},{"start":11535.99,"end":11558.139,"text":"但是這配比的同時我想說有一點讓您知道一下就是說其實台灣的ETF其實基本上購買者越來越多做你一個基金的操盤手它不是一個好的選項但是就現實而言手續費的部分在台灣的ETF手續費用是高達0.4%到1%之間在美國的ETF大概只有0.1%以下"},{"start":11559.46,"end":11573.959,"text":"那個是倍數的差別相信來回之間有十倍之多最高跟最低的部分所以這個部分是不是應該去跟相關的業者透過因為畢竟勞動基金醫院其實是大戶嘛你應該用這個方式來做一個談判的籌碼把它壓低這對一般"},{"start":11576.642,"end":11602.252,"text":"非基金運用局做投資的勞工朋友來說也是一項利多有沒有可能朝向這部分來跟相關的業者來做一個討論跟委員報告過去我們也曾經就我們基金運用局有投資的ETF標的跟發行機構就投信提出說我們希望降低這個管理費的一個可能性麻煩再加強一下"},{"start":11604.933,"end":11627.325,"text":"我想對基金運用局也好,或者對勞工朋友也好,都是一件好事,實在太貴了,十倍好,謝謝部長,謝謝局長接下來請葉元之委員,葉元之委員,葉元之委員不在請鍾嘉斌委員,鍾嘉斌委員,鍾嘉斌委員不在請廖偉祥委員來坐巡檔"},{"start":11636.028,"end":11638.849,"text":"謝謝主席 請洪部長請部長廖委員好部長好 部長辛苦喔這個我們節假日的條例修正後有委員說放假太多 有勞工擔心放假太多會被AI取代 請問部長認同嗎認同這個觀點嗎"},{"start":11660.523,"end":11676.024,"text":"我想勞動部在修法過後我們的角色就是協助這個條例但是部長請問你認同這個講法的觀點嗎我想我們就是會協助這個條例後續的執行你沒有回答我的問題你認同剛我說的委員的觀點嗎"},{"start":11678.859,"end":11695.555,"text":"AI的討論剛剛前面委員討論很多我覺得關於AI當然我們會有一些他就會衝擊的部分但是國家的國定假日修法通過所以你不認同他的觀點我們就會協助這個法規後續的執行尤其是怎麼樣顧到有關的權益所以部長您的意思就是不認同他的觀點嘛對不對"},{"start":11697.093,"end":11715.356,"text":"我覺得這個AI有AI的討論但是國家的通過部長你說不認同也沒關係因為黃仁勳其實也不認同黃仁勳說AI不會取代人類但是不會用AI的會被用AI的取代這樣子可以吧你懂嗎你懂他講的意思對不對"},{"start":11716.357,"end":11739.705,"text":"所以我想在AI裡面黃仁勳應該是教父級別所以您說不認同其實跟黃仁勳的意思是沒有問題的所以您可以直接大方的說你其實不認同這個觀點好不好部長不用護航這個觀點好部長這個我想要告訴你就是其實我想要問一下現在因應這個關稅衝擊和匯率衝擊對於勞工的這些衝擊請問有哪一些方案"},{"start":11746.372,"end":11774.577,"text":"我想我們其實現在有幾個方案都在進行針對減班休息的部分那我們的雇用安定措施其實也包括適用的產業那包括啟動的條件我們現在也單純重新做了一些設定部長那個我想要因為其實我們上次有到台中考察那我想要請教一下部長知不知道有哪些方案裡面有幫助到所謂的自營作業者跟無一定雇主"},{"start":11775.277,"end":11790.222,"text":"我們現在其實也在針對要來給自應作業者協助我們要提出新的方案所以原本沒有嘛對不對所以原本沒有嘛對不對我們現在這部分要提出真正的方案好 謝謝部長我跟你說我這裡就是要幫他們爭取因為上次到台中考察完之後這些人是被漏接的一群"},{"start":11791.36,"end":11815.655,"text":"部長這些人是被漏接的一群所以要請您好好的把他們加入這個方案當中各種補助方案甚至幫助勞工轉型他們都很需要因為現在有很多的方案只給這些所謂的企業或是有一定雇主的人所以這部分要跟部長講一下跟部長報告也要盯緊一下請部長可以趕緊重新擬定這個方案然後提給本席辦公室一個報告可以嗎"},{"start":11816.095,"end":11830.989,"text":"各位說明現在針對這部分我們也做方案在做方案的研商第二個但是確實是他開始實施的時機點會要來看關稅影響的情境的推演所以"},{"start":11831.59,"end":11845.037,"text":"我跟你說我們舊方案部分我們會準備可是每一支方案什麼時候適合啟動跟上路這會來看各種不同的情境會比較適合的時候那我跟你說一件事因為其實第一線那天我想署長也在現場"},{"start":11846.698,"end":11874.773,"text":"所以其實目前那天次長李次長講的其實在現場講的都是非常的好像說非常樂觀就是說他覺得以他目前知道現在談判的狀況應該是樂觀的所以可能不會啟動到最後一個階段包含上次我想要爭取的這個即時安心上工或是擴大這個臨時津貼工作津貼的部分可是我要跟你們報告其實第一個我剛剛講的第一件事情就是所謂自營作業者跟這個無一定雇主"},{"start":11875.513,"end":11885.709,"text":"當天有一個整復師復健師他來現場他就告訴大家說他就告訴現場的所有的長官行政部門說你知道為什麼我今天可以來嗎"},{"start":11887.432,"end":11907.759,"text":"然後大家不知道他說因為從4月開始啊他去他的店裡面這個做整復復健做按摩的少了七成的客人不然他以前才沒時間來他以前每天光接這些客人就就不夠時間了所以他今天有來是因為他從4月開始呢就是有七成的客人損失了"},{"start":11908.539,"end":11937.811,"text":"所以其實包含這個當天還有除了他之外其他產業的包含這個自營工作者有一些人是在家裡可能是幫那種中小企業中小工廠代工的其實他們都受到了衝擊啊所以我剛剛特別講說部長請不要我覺得你的感受你現在制定政策感受可能跟第一線的有落差而且這些人其實是事實上已經被衝擊的包含有一些是直接影響可是他可能是無一定雇主或是在家裡幫忙做一些加工的"},{"start":11938.571,"end":11948.394,"text":"這部分要請部長重視我這邊要特別請部長重視跟廖長說明第一個我們沒有用樂觀的態度或樂觀的心態來看待我們也沒有用樂觀的心態來看待這個相對關稅的衝擊"},{"start":11953.756,"end":11970.231,"text":"可能我們也要把很嚴峻的狀況做出準備所以現在這些相關的計畫我想我們都必須部長那我想要請問一下因為這跟第一線的感受真的差蠻遠的第一線包含台中市政府勞工局的相關的處事處長也都說"},{"start":11971.632,"end":11988.706,"text":"他們開始去訪談之後呢感覺第一線啊包含這種無一定僱主啊自營作業者的影響是很大的我要講的事情是你講的這些我想請問那你們演繹出來之後你的時程你要怎麼安排你要怎麼去保障他們的工作權益因為聽起來你就說一直演繹可是到底時間是什麼"},{"start":11989.727,"end":12009.277,"text":"跟廖遠說明我們並不是只是一直研議第一個其實這段時間我們也一直來跟這些可能會潛在受衝擊的產業的工會持續不斷的在座談包括中部彰化好沒關係那部長我問一下具體的我們都持續的在了解大家的意見好那請問幾時安心上工這類的方案啊你們現在說會準備那我想要請問"},{"start":12011.118,"end":12027.04,"text":"他整體準備到確切可以實施要多久的時間?我跟廖委員說明因為即時安心上工的這個這一支計畫他主要是提供這個就業的機會甚至是用工部門的資源來提供就業的機會"},{"start":12028.722,"end":12056.809,"text":"這一支計畫推出的時間基本上會是在比方說失業的程度有開始已經發生那些對所以我要問說你現在準備要到多久可以營業那部長你回答我的問題拜託我只是告訴你說你剛剛講的這些都是一些解釋啦我只要問具體我問說要多久的時間嘛包含行政的流程程序要多久的時間現在這些因為如果你突然發生了很多人受衝擊了你要多久才可以上路我剛才所以我就跟"},{"start":12057.569,"end":12063.421,"text":"我在跟廖仁說明在這個發生的過程裡面第一個他可能會先從減慢休息開始發生"},{"start":12064.724,"end":12088.429,"text":"那減班休息開始發生以後如果有開始發生失業我們包括有失業協助他就業的計畫但是到我們要來創造就業機會這件事情本身這個計畫的推出會相對會比較後面但是如果你把這個推出的次序給對調的時候反而可能會製造我沒有要你對調你要多久時間可以轉"},{"start":12090.229,"end":12117.989,"text":"因為他你等到那個時間點的時候你後面的程序來不會 我們在六月前我們其實就把這些相關的準備包括剛剛說的然後第二個你剛剛說的那幾個方案我剛剛前面還是有講這個自營作業者自營工作者跟這個無一定雇主你們一定要趕快把這兩個身份別納進去我看我們署長頻頻點頭我請部長可以認同就好因為署長是主管這個業務的這件事情我們在上個禮拜其實就已經來要求我們應該要針對自營作業者設計協助的方案了 對"},{"start":12119.608,"end":12143.914,"text":"對 那你現在還沒有嘛 那請問多久的時間 可以給本席一個報告我們現在在進行中啊 因為他甚至還會涉及到法規的研究我們是希望六月可以出來好不好 對所以一個月好不好 一個月一個月給本席一個報告 然後也推動這個協助方案的本身我們是希望到六月下旬可以出來"},{"start":12144.674,"end":12163.669,"text":"那但是什麼時候上路這個還要看關稅衝擊的情境的發生也包括談判的結局部長我跟你講不只啊因為其實包含你們所謂的這個充電再出發休息充電再出發等等其實這些方案裡面究竟有沒有把這個自營工作者放進去以及無一定僱主放進去其實這個其實應該不管什麼時間點都要放我舉個例子因為現在面對的衝擊是整個台灣的產業要轉型"},{"start":12171.24,"end":12194.314,"text":"不管是關稅或是匯率產業要轉型政府應該要帶頭轉型可是產業要轉型怎麼樣勞工也要升級那這些人包含的當天現場反映的不只是整副師啊也可能有這種小廚師有一些有受影響的他們也都希望知道說那他如果現在休息時間他生意不好的時候他可以怎麼幫助自己去上課去轉型那勞動部怎麼幫助他"},{"start":12195.114,"end":12219.219,"text":"所以這部分是我想要強調的部長跟委員說明如果是自行作業者如果是因為確實產業持續需要轉型那勞工的這個資能也需要持續的提升或是資能提升所以就自行作業者來說其實現在當然有包括像我們產業投資人才的計劃這部分其實是可以的我們相關的訓練也有相關的補助這部分就是就可以參與了因為其實憑良心講當天大家在問"},{"start":12219.939,"end":12240.507,"text":"我們的部是沒有辦法具體回應人家的喔你現在講這些好那不然你把具體的方案給我我馬上去回答他們好不好因為當天講的所有的回應其實那些自營工作者他是完全想說跟我有什麼關係那有什麼微型創業啦我們其實現在確實也在針對關稅如果會影響到自營作業者的話的協助方案我們現在正在做研擬"},{"start":12241.227,"end":12262.1,"text":"所以這樣回答我就好了我知道所以你後面這部分其實這部分其實也在做年齡一個月嘛好不好一個月可以請大家關照到這些我們相關的規劃我們在一個月的時間我們可以提出來所以部長我要講的事情是因為他現在面對的這個問題是整個台灣的產業轉型勞工也要轉型所以請把這些勞工不要漏接也把他們算進去這當然是"},{"start":12262.7,"end":12291.368,"text":"最重要的政策目標另外我想要請問一下因為這個勞動基金的部分你們運用局我想要請問一下這一段時間因為匯率我想問我們基金裡面有多少是持有美債然後因為匯損產生了多少我們每個月月底都會去評估我們持有美元外幣部位的所以比例多少這次匯損多少"},{"start":12292.911,"end":12319.295,"text":"不好意思報告委員我們大概都是月底才會去評價但是我要提醒月底現在五月出馬四月底啊四月底的時候多少因為我這裡看到的數據只有三月底而已我們四月底還沒有公佈但是我要跟委員報告的是說這個是一個評價的損益並不是實現的一個損益他會影響我們的我當然知道為實現損益嘛我就是想要知道為實現損益是多少"},{"start":12319.975,"end":12334.838,"text":"然後我想問說面對這樣的事件你們有沒有好的這個衝擊減緩或是避險的措施然後目前到底就是到底狀況表現的怎麼樣這是我想我們所有勞工朋友都很關心的"},{"start":12336.239,"end":12362.945,"text":"我們也我們持續在注意這個議題但是我們透過我們在投資配置的部分去分散我們包括不同的標的目前我們事實上已經投資的國家有70幾個國家那我們透過各種分散這個都是這種投資公報會講的這個官方的話我就是想要知道具體的數字我想要知道你持有美債的比例有多少"},{"start":12363.525,"end":12390.083,"text":"你現在面臨到匯損的未實現損益是多少我想這個東西應該這樣子讓我會有點擔心我怕你們沒有實時掌握沒有辦法做即時的避險所以因為你剛剛講的我想你不管投資什麼東西他都會寫類似的話是不是如果你現在沒有辦法馬上告訴我你就說你現在沒有辦法馬上告訴我然後匯後提供給本席辦公室一份報告相關的資料可以嗎"},{"start":12391.214,"end":12392.395,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請陳穎瑋來做詢問"},{"start":12422.685,"end":12429.689,"text":"謝主席麻煩請治安署署長治安署署長丁署長我也好"},{"start":12433.111,"end":12452.527,"text":"蘇章浩今天我們委員會就是審議預算的解凍案所以我想就針對解凍以後職安署預算使用先請教幾個問題目前這個救安基金實役的預算整體執行率大概是多少然後哪些執行率哪些計畫執行率是最差的原因是什麼"},{"start":12456.941,"end":12478.294,"text":"應該是指我們那個救安基金裡面的使用到救保基金裡面的預算我們大概裡面有六支計畫那那個我手上沒有這個資料因為確實有部分的如果是指這個救保基金的裡面計畫有部分的這個救安計畫平均的話是90.1295.12是你說95.12什麼執行率執行率95.12"},{"start":12489.284,"end":12504.962,"text":"你確定是那個救保現在講的這個是95.12是整個使用到救安基金裡面的預算裡面所有計畫所以沒有執行最差的"},{"start":12507.664,"end":12522.39,"text":"那執行率95%你覺得很好如果委員提到說執行率比較不高的部分有一個是70點多這是有關於這個對啊我的題目很清楚我一開始就問你執行率最差的你怎麼就報喜不報憂是還是你沒有聽清楚我的問題我可以再講一次"},{"start":12529.437,"end":12557.731,"text":"就目前你們救安基金10億的這個預算裡面整體執行率整體執行率大概是多少然後然後大概是哪些計畫執行率是最差的是跟委員報告整體執行率是95.12那其中執行率比較低的是70.05的部分是在有關於高風險高違規廠長的一個工作環境改善的輔導對"},{"start":12558.868,"end":12583.554,"text":"好那你覺得原因是什麼跟委員報告這個部分主要是有部分是在涉及到經費的補助就是一些比較高風險的工廠或是屬於比較屬於過去說比較辛苦產業的這個3K產業的一個廠商的輔導所以會有一些經費的一個補助如果申請案不多的話可能就會涉及到經費的執行"},{"start":12585.319,"end":12605.789,"text":"那你上任之後覺得要如何改善這些情形因為你是從這個副署長升任這個署長的所以你要怎麼去確保說這些預算執行之後能夠未來就是可以改善然後並且有助於提升我們的職業安全的這些水準"},{"start":12608.044,"end":12625.039,"text":"確實這個既然有編這樣的經費那就是說這個經費要補助到位所以我們這個部分我們未來會了解說在事業單位申請上這個到底是我們現在程序上還是說我們真正它的需求我們沒有這個項目沒有配合上這個部分我們會來檢討"},{"start":12626.26,"end":12648.187,"text":"好 那在未來就是針對這個職災預防有沒有什麼創新的這個措施跟做法跟過去可以有不一樣的思考那能夠真正解決就是前任署長他沒有辦法解決的問題例如說像我不久前才質詢的這個重大職災高居不下的這個問題還有點點點啦"},{"start":12651.44,"end":12674.233,"text":"是跟委員報告其實在整個減災裡面最重要還是在這個法規跟制度的部分那我們認為說在法規部分現在整個治安法他正在做這個研修那再來這個制度面我們有去檢討說是不是除了不好意思你可能要大聲一點點因為你聲音要壓過這邊我才聽得清楚"},{"start":12675.034,"end":12690.988,"text":"是 除了這個加強勞檢以外我們認為在制度上也必須要去做一些如何讓這個事業單位他自己本身可以運作他的內部的一個安慰管理機制我覺得這個是我們未來要努力的方向"},{"start":12691.598,"end":12718.376,"text":"好謝謝那在過去本期曾在4月9號提到這個治安署的主管即將有很多人就不想幹了那想要提早退休或調職而且也聽說署長有自己比較偏好的子弟兵那期待署長可以提拔升官那這些主管呢是不是還會離退那你要如何穩定軍心好好的跟這些主管合作讓"},{"start":12719.597,"end":12749.128,"text":"你帶領的職安署的業務能夠順利推動呢各位回報 剛剛委員提到說什麼什麼子弟兵或是說這個是在內部完全沒有聽到這樣的訊息那確實在我上任之前就有部分的主管他是因為藉領要退休這個部分我們希望是他能留下來跟我們一起合作這個部分我們會持續跟我們同仁這邊來溝通那到目前為止"},{"start":12750.029,"end":12772.57,"text":"這個部分有關於人事的部分我們都還是持續內部還在考量當中我想人事的穩定其實是讓整個業務推動穩定很順利很重要的一個因素那你沒聽到的但外面卻傳的沸沸揚揚那我沒關係我是提供大家提出來討論討論那責任署過去好像"},{"start":12773.151,"end":12802.301,"text":"比較偏向這個職業安全的領域那在未來你要如何兼顧這個職業衛生領域的工作確實在這個安全上過去我也有詮詢在這個我們整個減災部分還要再持續努力那當然在目前來講整個產業的發展在衛生跟健康的部分也是現在不管是國內外都是非常重視的一塊所以我們這個部分未來在整個計畫上跟執行上都要特別去強化的部分"},{"start":12803.303,"end":12826.536,"text":"我想刚刚以上的问题是让你这个新上任署长可以简单的这个证件发表一下我们也留下记录作为未来检视的一个参考那现在要问一些比较严重的问题这个食品里面它会有这个PFAS的残留那劳工在这个生产的过程当中有没有可能曝露"},{"start":12829.402,"end":12852.293,"text":"確實喔因為如果這個不管是剛剛委員提到的這個會使用在什麼樣的器材基本上生產都是勞工在生產所以這個部分我們在跟這個環境部這邊他的一個行動計畫裡面我們有扮演一定的角色我們在這個不管是這個整個一個健康衛生部分的一個個別個人的保護這部分"},{"start":12853.168,"end":12880.146,"text":"好那個待會我會再問你喔因為我想問的是說那他們的這個這些勞工的暴露風險相較於國人誰的暴露風險比較高當然是本國勞工在在做這個這樣的業務裡面風險比較高對本國勞工我也是問我說在現場的一個作為勞工好那一直到現在有沒有勞工朋友因為這樣的暴露而導致職業病就我們的資料裡面目前是沒有"},{"start":12881.277,"end":12895.537,"text":"沒有不代表沒有發生是我們可能沒有做研究那在你們的這個全服務及多服務晚期物質的這個管理行動計畫裡面的分工"},{"start":12896.138,"end":12917.959,"text":"我看到的只有两项就是因应国际趋势依主管业务权则强化劳工对PFAS的安全与健康预防及危害认知以及对劳工宣导安全及健康之保护对化学品危害之认知进行教育宣导请问这个部分你们做了些什么"},{"start":12923.309,"end":12945.084,"text":"我們是主要是在讓現場的作為勞工知道我知道你們已經做了什麼你們做了哪些還是還沒開始整個如果是在法規部分我們那個危害標示的部分目前已經讓事業單位這邊讓勞工第一線勞工知道說這個從事這個工作是有危害的部分我們在做這段的宣導"},{"start":12946.656,"end":12974.174,"text":"所以就是只有宣導就是標示目前是只有標示而已那就是你剛剛也講到就是說勞工對於這個這個PFAS的這個健康風險其實應該是很高的吧所以我想你們後續可不可以再多做一點事情可以好謝謝那我想說土壤跟這個食品以外勞工的這個暴露也只會比國人還高那"},{"start":12974.914,"end":12990.027,"text":"因為他們更增加了職業的暴露那希望職安署呢不要忽視了這個問題的嚴重性應該有這個更多的精進做法包括作業環境監測相關的採樣分析方法還有容許濃度標準"},{"start":12990.808,"end":13019.574,"text":"以及這個特別危害勞工的這個健檢這些都是你們治安署應該要有的這個責任跟職長說啊你認同嗎認同好那我剛剛提的這些你們大概多少時間內可以做出來這個部分因為也涉及到要跟這個研究場景研究我看我們會不會是跟我們研究所這邊再來討論一下那你可不可以先預估抓個時間因為我們不定時間大家都會拖啊是"},{"start":13022.816,"end":13040.53,"text":"那委員給我們三個月時間好不好兩個月行嗎兩個月好好 謝謝那這個多福碗計畫核物的PFAS危害預防因為PFAS的作業類型很多事實上應該有很多勞工可能是暴露在這種危害物質重點是你們應該就是說"},{"start":13042.171,"end":13070.338,"text":"要先掌控可能的暴露族群那例如說因為這種物質存在在比如說像我們這個生物可堆肥的餐具啦還有一些這個不沾的這些土具那滅火器啦雨衣啦家具的這些製作的這些勞工還有油漆工啊我想還有特別是那個化妝品的製造業者"},{"start":13071.358,"end":13087.535,"text":"這些都是很危險的族群那署長你有沒有辦法追蹤到這些族群的這些暴露的這些族群暴露的勞工然後你追蹤到了然後又能夠怎麼樣去協助做好足夠的健康管理"},{"start":13089.349,"end":13106.271,"text":"委員確實這一塊比較我們必須要再深入去研究確實這個還沒有辦法鎖定聚焦到說哪一些勞工確實是暴露在這個地方那是不是委員這邊讓我們一個時間去做研究因為其實大概我想"},{"start":13107.432,"end":13134.568,"text":"署長應該也大概了解就是說有哪些品項哪些業者是就是說哪些產品他們是比較有含這個PFAS的這些有這些危害的這個物質所以我們其實是可以事先來是不是應該可以協助這些雇主來做好這個危害暴露的這個監督管理因為看起來你們實在是做得不多"},{"start":13136.94,"end":13162.798,"text":"目前跟這個環境部的配合事項是比較少沒有錯對啊但是因為這就最獨的比我們這些塑膠圍籬還要可怕是好所以麻煩你們加速一下要很積極那最後就是說本席想要請你明確的回應就是身為署長未來在這個職場不法侵害還有勞動條件的檢查業務會顯著的增加那你們就有的這個組織框架能夠應付的來嗎"},{"start":13167.483,"end":13181.479,"text":"現在因為我們配合整個職安法在修法那未來修法後業務會不會增加我想我們會通盤在判決修法其實有的法都已經修訂完成了所以那你是不是支持這個職安署的這個組織編制應該有所調整嗎好就是"},{"start":13189.083,"end":13208.733,"text":"以目前這樣業務推動上我們目前的整個組織編制是運作還算可以但是問題是你們這個有的組別因為也應該要因應修法就早就該落日了結果還存在你也搞不清楚是哪個我們這邊會持續來研議來檢討"},{"start":13211.732,"end":13226.004,"text":"好 那我想你回去就是我剛剛講的是基本常識你自己回去好好想一想那後續該做哪些調整你兩週裡面大概提出書面報告給本辦跟委員會好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請楊委員亮來做詢問"},{"start":13247.019,"end":13261.983,"text":"好謝謝主席主席請一下洪部長部長好部長好勞動力發展署假如有需要的話就自己直接上台"},{"start":13264.363,"end":13275.298,"text":"部長我先問一下就是勞動部有預告修正外國人從事就業服務法的相關工作資格跟審查標準"},{"start":13276.976,"end":13295.721,"text":"預計要開放6年以上的資深移工可以擔任護佐其實其他有6項工作啦齁那其實已經在4月10號就已經預告終止媒體報導啦在本月7號勞動部把公告刪除了"},{"start":13296.861,"end":13319.243,"text":"發展署的意見是說關於中階技術人力部分預告期間收到不同的意見所以將與交通部、衛福部、經濟部討論後並做好風險評估配套再做規劃那本席這邊有兩個問題第一個就是你們要預告之前"},{"start":13320.575,"end":13332.746,"text":"不是先應該在程序上不是先應該跟相關的部會做過溝通再行預告這個第一題第二題就是勞搭署這樣子的話會"},{"start":13340.121,"end":13356.5,"text":"也會讓人家對於日後資深移工擔任副佐這件事情產生疑慮這兩個問題請部長或者是發展署今天是署長來 署長回答也可以 對"},{"start":13359.071,"end":13375.443,"text":"是謝謝委員有關本案基本上我們在事前都會跟目的事業主管機關開會演商那他們會針對他們該產業缺工的情況做出評估那提供相關的資料之後我們會提送我們勞動力諮詢小組進行討論通過了之後我們才會進行法制作業這是"},{"start":13380.547,"end":13391.276,"text":"應該有的SOP也都按照這個程序在進行預告之前已經做過有跟各部會協調組長你是麥克風的聲音我大聲一點開始進行預告的時候"},{"start":13396.801,"end":13410.318,"text":"我想我們預告的目的也是收集各界的意見那在這個期間因為各界針對開放的這六個職類呢有一些相關的疑慮所以呢我們也招會又再請這相關目的事業主管機關再回來再開會討論了一下"},{"start":13412.521,"end":13435.992,"text":"包括這個針對他們所要求的語言技能條件等等希望他們能夠再去思考是不是有一些配套要再充分一點然後再上路那該相關目的事業機關其實他們也都已經知道各界的意見所以他們表示他們可以再收回去在這個跟相關單位在做一些溝通在做一些演繹所以目前呢我們的法制作業目前是暫緩"},{"start":13436.86,"end":13465.627,"text":"也就是說事前其實你們已經有做過相關的溝通是的納入外界意見以後你們再溝通持續溝通其實政策的擬定大概就是這樣子它是一個很繁瑣而且必須要不斷滾動加入新的意見然後擬定新的政策的一個過程我想也直接問署長"},{"start":13466.994,"end":13478.119,"text":"就是說在80歲我們現在已經通過80歲以上長者免80量表就可以聘請外籍看護那這樣子的需求量看護的需求量大增你們大概要怎麼因應"},{"start":13487.289,"end":13509.717,"text":"社福移工人力的部分是跟委員報告我想這個有幾個面向包括我們為了要確保重症不會受影響所以我們目前正在跟衛福部以及相關的這個醫學團體研究怎麼樣做出輕重症分流的這個原則那輕重症分流做出來之後呢我們可能配合的包括系統法規相關的表單"},{"start":13512.038,"end":13531.82,"text":"申請的流程以及人員的配置人員的教育訓練等等的都需要做相關的配套輕重症分流署長的意思就是說以後要引進家庭看護工是必須要先經過審核大家來評比誰比較需要"},{"start":13534.366,"end":13560.948,"text":"對不對 你剛才這樣子的回答資格應該是說我們為了要讓因為可能預期預期的案件量會很多你不用緊張 你慢慢講我們是覺得說預期案量可能會增加增加了以後重症者的需求應該比較迫切比起那些健康或亞健康的他們的權益可能更需要受到保障所以我們可能會做出一個分流的機制"},{"start":13562.289,"end":13581.517,"text":"讓他所檢附的這個鷹背文件如果是屬於重症的那我們可能有一個加速的機制不是讓他可以簽署不是署長你現在講的就是在修法80歲以上免巴士量表的修法的時候本席就提過以後一定會有排擠的效用對那現在現在"},{"start":13583.868,"end":13597.265,"text":"我們的主張沒有被立法院的多數採納所以現在就是免巴斯量表那你們現在透過行政手段變成你們審核這個比巴斯量表更有問題"},{"start":13599.167,"end":13627.937,"text":"那個我跟楊詠琳說明不是審核啦但是就是說我們跟這些職業的醫學會來做討論我們先把重症的資格的人先分出來就是說你的狀況是重症的先分出來那我們讓重症的家庭他如果要聘請的話他有一個更快速的申請的方式或者是降低他的時間成本的方式比較便利的申請但坦白說要做到不會有衝擊是不不不"},{"start":13628.197,"end":13651.167,"text":"不可能啦一定會有衝擊我們的做法只是希望能夠減少衝擊一些而且讓你轉介過去的外籍看護工也不見得願意來啊所以我說我們必須很誠實的說不可能對重症的家庭都沒有衝擊這是幾乎不可能的一定會有衝擊只是我們的做法是在降低一些這個衝擊應該是這樣說我並沒有"},{"start":13657.009,"end":13681.369,"text":"想要為難你們的意思啦不過我只是跟你們講說你們這樣子的做法其實還是會有一定的問題產生所以我們只是提出配套降低影響可是很難完全沒有影響這我們心裡都很清楚還是必須要從引進外籍工的從來源的部分來做思考好不好"},{"start":13682.435,"end":13702.346,"text":"部長我實驗的關係說我最後問一個問題就是失聯的外籍移工積欠醫療院所的費用那譬如說他因為他假如是在職在職他本來就有勞健保都有嘛那他逃逸了失聯了可是呢"},{"start":13704.417,"end":13733.368,"text":"我們現在全國的醫院函請你們光是有函請你們協助處理失聯乙工積欠的醫療費用就有1600萬那這個到底怎麼處理因為他雖然失聯了可是他就醫基於人道立場不可能不幫他醫治那他的醫療費用不能從健保給付因為他沒有健保"},{"start":13734.215,"end":13756.381,"text":"那欠下來的錢怎麼處理應該是跟委員說明因為確實很多醫院有來詢問我們能不能夠從救安基金來出這個錢可是我們認為這個事情要非常非常的審慎因為如果用救安基金出的話那就會變成這個合法的他是自己要出"},{"start":13757.561,"end":13779.567,"text":"非法的反而是政府出那這反而會形成一個其實反向的道德風險的問題不是部長這樣子講就是說就業安定基金到底它成立的目的是什麼它也有一部分是從是從外籍公這邊這邊繳納的那"},{"start":13783.968,"end":13799.105,"text":"假如說部長剛剛的論述是說有繳健保費的用不到就業安定基金,沒有繳的反而要,對不對?不是,我的意思是,因為他們之前都有繳,現在都有繳過就業安定基金"},{"start":13804.992,"end":13828.328,"text":"但是我的意思是說我們不希望變成一個狀況是別人等於是合法的移工他是自己繳健保對不對他自己繳可是變成是非法的是政府來繳那這反而會有點變相這裡面的相對應的對待反而會讓一些人覺得是在鼓勵非法或者是產生逃逸"},{"start":13830.33,"end":13856.091,"text":"你們回去做思考啦我不覺得這樣子的論述一定對因為政府存在的功能呢譬如說有很多人是必須要繳很多稅可是他用不到社會福利的補貼那通常社會福利補貼多數是不用繳稅的人在使用"},{"start":13856.812,"end":13877.688,"text":"你懂我的意思嗎所以說有一些看法可能必須要更宏觀一點我今天並沒有這一題我今天並沒有要答案是部長你們帶我去做思考今天要我再補充一點所以我們其實現在有跟各個來源國的相關有請他們大家一起提出來怎麼樣協助這部分管理的方案目前這部分是有做"},{"start":13878.248,"end":13905.667,"text":"但確實剛才我們主要講到說因為一些議員確實希望用救安基金來說的話其實確實會產生一些相對應這些爭議是這段時間我們收集到很多人的意見你們會有這個疑慮可能還有很多面向要做考慮不過部長剛剛講的那個理由我也舉繳稅跟社福來做相對應的比照讓部長待會去做思考好不好好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":13911.189,"end":13928.574,"text":"好 謝謝本次會議詢答全部結束現在做一下決議第一 報告及詢答完畢第二 委員諮詢為其答覆或請補充介紹者請相關機關里長周列以順便答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定那我們現在接下來處理剛剛的報告"},{"start":13934.622,"end":13946.666,"text":"好不然我們現在接下來來進行討論事項既有17案請一併宣讀宣讀完之後我們就會先來處理這個剛剛的報告事項的暫停保留的部分好請宣讀"},{"start":13950.877,"end":13959.06,"text":"處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算決議有關勞動部主管預算凍結報告案17案1.勞動部勞動基金運用局新增決議97案業務費預算凍結30%專案報告2.勞動部新增決議1.業務費預算凍結30%專案報告3.勞動部新增決議29第6目"},{"start":13972.224,"end":13978.089,"text":"勞動條件及就業平等業務預算凍結20%專案報告4勞動部勞工保險局新增決議57業務費預算凍結30%專案報告5勞動部勞動力發展署及所屬新增決議71業務費預算凍結30%專案報告6勞動部勞動力發展署及所屬新增決議74"},{"start":13992.38,"end":14019.679,"text":"勞動力發展業務預算凍結百分之二十專案報告七勞動部職業安全衛生署新增決議八四業務費預算凍結百分之三十專案報告八勞動部勞動及職業安全衛生研究所新增決議百業務費預算凍結百分之三十專案報告九勞動部決議八第三目向下辦理勞動政策集中措施及勞動部臉書等相關媒體宣導資料製作拖撥及刊登等所需業務費預算凍結六萬元書面報告"},{"start":14023.101,"end":14034.012,"text":"10 勞動部決議9 第三幕 向下辦理勞動政策與重要措施及勞動部臉書等相關媒體宣導資料製作拖撥及刊登等所需業務費預算凍結5%書面報告"},{"start":14039.815,"end":14058.389,"text":"十一勞動部含勞工保險局決議二第一幕向下水電費預算凍結百分之十報告十二勞動部勞動力發展署及所屬決議七第二幕勞動力發展業務預算凍結十萬元專報告十三勞動部勞動力發展署及所屬決議九第二幕向下"},{"start":14059.39,"end":14068.573,"text":"補助辦理就業保險業務所需行政事務費預算凍結10萬元專案報告14勞動部勞動力發展署及所屬決議16第3目向下水電費預算凍結10%報告15勞動部勞動力發展署及所屬決議17第4目向下水電費預算凍結10%報告16勞動部職業安全衛生署決議7第3目向下媒體政策及業務宣導費預算凍結30萬書面報告17勞動部勞動"},{"start":14086.738,"end":14106.725,"text":"及職業安全衛生研究所決議二地木向下水電費預算凍結10%報告報告完畢好謝謝那現在處理方才保留的這個報告事項那主案來做處理那第一案請委員表示意見"},{"start":14111.542,"end":14138.75,"text":"是報告一嘛對不對對對對是有關於這個ACGA我想請問一下這個ACGA跟AIGCC的會費各是多少總數多少是這個報一嗎我沒有我桌上沒有那一本我們現在是處理早上的報告事項"},{"start":14141.202,"end":14152.147,"text":"對對對報告事項有五十九案因為剛剛陳昭志委員有針對這個報告事項五十九案裡面有提出三十案就是這個嘛對不對報告事項對啊對"},{"start":14161.86,"end":14172.031,"text":"沒錯啊因為你們報告事項一就是說這個基金業務之嚴考及管控嘛凍結第二幕基金運用業務向下的基金業務之嚴考及管控一萬元"},{"start":14174.009,"end":14192.869,"text":"是这样嘛对不对没有错所以我刚刚在问说这个有关于因为你们的解释里面有关于要去参加这个ACGA跟这个AIGCC也就是亚洲公司治理协会跟亚洲投资人气候变迁联盟这两个会费各是多少"},{"start":14193.533,"end":14213.186,"text":"是 報告委員亞洲公司治理協會的那個美金是17250然後AIGC是那個15200元所以一個是美金然後所以一個大概是60萬一個是60萬左右一個是537000這樣好 那基金這個部分這科目總共編了1200萬2000元的預算"},{"start":14222.441,"end":14227.747,"text":"然後未還委員會是凍結了一萬元所以佔比其實是萬分之8.33沒有錯吧"},{"start":14232.376,"end":14246.166,"text":"所以你們裡面有提到依照你們的解凍說明第4頁有關於預算解凍之影響提到本案預算是推動永續投資業務所需如未解凍將影響相關業務推動我想要請問一下這個萬分之8.33大概是1200分之1怎麼影響你們的業務推動"},{"start":14258.439,"end":14282.686,"text":"報告委員我們非常尊重委員的決議所以我們還是會在這個過程我們會積極去推動但是因為預算有被凍結所以我們會比較謹慎希望可以解凍以後才能夠正式加入會議妳說解凍以後才可以正式加入嗎妳確定嗎所以妳要解凍才可以加入那我如果解凍了妳加入不了怎麼辦"},{"start":14283.593,"end":14288.88,"text":"呃 不會啦 我們現在簽名用那個好 那我就問妳嘛 妳說這個案子這個案子我剛剛已經說了 凍結是一萬塊好 那我就進一步問囉"},{"start":14292.481,"end":14299.986,"text":"預算書上面明明寫到是加入國際永續倡議組織會員會籍交流活動是118萬1千元所以你們在這一筆預算的時候因為剛剛算會費是大概60萬9千台幣還有53萬7千總共是114萬6千那你在這裡是寬列了118萬1千元你已經寬列了3.5萬那按照你們的解凍說明說凍結1萬元會影響業務推動的話"},{"start":14320.498,"end":14334.6,"text":"那我想要請問那明年你們在編列的時候是不是不要寬裂你就完全的精準編列因為當初我們在審的時候也是已經保有彈性了所以我覺得你剛剛要跟我說這一萬元沒有解凍會影響到你們入會我覺得這個"},{"start":14335.862,"end":14346.368,"text":"我補充更正一下我們這個項目不是編一千多萬我們其實是核實編列我們根據他的會員的聯費兩個會員的聯費加上一個交流活動的雜費但是這下面是可以讓你們"},{"start":14352.491,"end":14371.643,"text":"我們是就我們這個項目只有118萬而已不是1000多萬我們這個項目是但是你這整個裡面好118萬剛剛也說了那你已經寬裂了嘛對不對我們是根據會費核實的編那當初在這個下面你們是不是可以調整"},{"start":14375.271,"end":14400.24,"text":"調整必須跟其他科目我們這個項目其實是核實當時根據會員年費多少是確實的數目去乘以匯率然後再加上一個雜項就是其他的往來的文件等等是三萬五千並沒有多編所以其實任何三萬五千對你這裡寬列三萬五千那不是寬列那我問你這個部分你們可以調整嗎對不對"},{"start":14402.461,"end":14416.924,"text":"哪邊可以調整就是這個所謂的這個科目啊下面的科目啊你這裡你說你118萬都要用在這裡嘛對不對118萬那你下面這個科目下面其他項目你是可以調整的我除了扣掉聯飛之外就只剩3萬5啊"},{"start":14418.263,"end":14430.447,"text":"那其他的呢這個下面其他的還有你們上面的大廈裡面我們這個項目118萬就是匯匪跟雜項你這整個我剛說了這個科目總共編了1200萬你這是在下面的這個細項我剛講到是這個細項沒有錯我剛才講這個東西可是你這整個科目總共編了1200多萬那"},{"start":14442.791,"end":14469.004,"text":"你加入這個會費是的確你剛剛講了我們剛剛算了114萬6千114萬6千那你們總共編了118萬1千所以有3.5萬那在整個1200多萬的科目裡面你其他東西也是可以調你真的會因為這1萬塊完全影響到你們可不可以加入嗎所以這部分是我想要點出來的重點不過憑良心講這個目前1萬塊現在要解凍我也是沒什麼意見謝謝委員"},{"start":14472.646,"end":14491.809,"text":"我只是要告訴你說這一萬塊搞得好像是一千兩百分之一搞得好像是沒有辦法加入齁我只是要點出這個問題齁那第二 是不是第二案沒有 梁委員你不是要講 嘿阿六位行政委員已經在他的結論講出來了就是一萬元我想"},{"start":14492.91,"end":14509.741,"text":"我想當初提案委員凍結一萬大概也是在給你們一個示警啦那你們你們大概反正廖偉強委員剛剛的結論也是他沒有意見所以所以我我想要告他 已經跟你說完了"},{"start":14523.847,"end":14546.252,"text":"謝謝主席包括像第二案件因為金額比較高我必須做一個說明民眾黨團要提案的凍結十億那我們的條件就是勞動部要提出勞保條例修法把政府最終給負責任入法請榮秀說明一下總統府2017年召開的國家年金改革委員會當時會計年金改革方案大概有十大重點"},{"start":14547.032,"end":14561.045,"text":"但是到現在為止只有實現了撥補政策那最重要的是我們等待的政府最終給付的入法還是沒有提出來那目前勞保平均每年虧損大概一千億以上那撥補是緩不及急"},{"start":14562.586,"end":14577.569,"text":"而且既然勞動部跟行政院一直強調勞保不會倒政府有最終幾負責任既然如此是不是就我們不要用空口說白話如果勞動部跟行政院都認為本來就是這個態度那麼入法才會有保障"},{"start":14578.67,"end":14591.081,"text":"否則如果將來換了院長換了部長又換了執政黨空口白話的成果對人民完全沒有保障所以我們是希望能夠將這個政府最終起負責任入法但很遺憾我們這次勞動部沒有提出任何資料沒有達到當初解凍的條件不過勞動部是有這個有來溝通希望能夠解凍那我們黨團也"},{"start":14600.128,"end":14625.278,"text":"也是說願意釋出善意退一步我們同意解凍但前提是勞動部要接受我們剛剛提到提出來的附帶決議那個附帶決議請大家請勞動部讀一下就在年底前提出修法也就是說這個實意我們今天可以解凍但是再給勞動部多大概半年以上的時間去準備修法我想這樣應該是有誠意跟善意的這個做法"},{"start":14625.638,"end":14654.906,"text":"那這個法我覺得大家都知道已經存在很大的問題了那好像就是又是房間裡的大象大家又視而不見那一直拖一直拖要拖到哪一年哪一月那是不是就遲早要去面對他那洪部長你就勇敢的去面對他嘛這個你從勞運出身這個勞團出身這個就開始來做這件事情所以我們不是不能解凍就是說把這個這個提出這個說明的這個進度把你延後到年底之前提出來可以嗎"},{"start":14656.958,"end":14680.911,"text":"來請說好那個跟跟委員做說明當然我們當然都希望這個因為這個涉及到10億元我們希望10億元可以解凍但我有幾個補充第一個確實是今天政府最終責任這幾個字有沒有入法我想現在政府上面就是是政府來負擔最終責任那第二個事情是我我自己確實Longboard的角度確實是認為這個修法的"},{"start":14685.093,"end":14708.399,"text":"討論我們是可以持一個比較開放的態度可是我要提醒因為這裡面涉及到可能不是只有勞動部也包括財主單位那如果要提出這樣子的一個修正的草案這也包括要經過行政院跟行政院裡面的財主單位的同意因為涉及到撥補因為撥補這件事情並不是勞動部自己就可以做的事情"},{"start":14709.139,"end":14724.045,"text":"所以我想跟村委員說明的地方是坦白說我其實是我自己我勞動部的角度來說我們確實覺得這件事情是可以開放性的討論這部分是我們的態度是這樣但是我很難代替"},{"start":14725.385,"end":14743.968,"text":"其他的財主單位承諾我們在什麼時候一定會提出什麼樣子的法案尤其是經過行政院通過的法案我很難代替其他單位因為這裡面確實是涉及到其他財主單位的權責因為它涉及到一些撥補法制化的問題"},{"start":14745.73,"end":14759.924,"text":"這是我們在這裡面比較難我直接就答應你這件事情說什麼時候我就可以因為我的答應或者是我的承諾對於我沒有辦法代替其他的單位承諾我的問題會是在這裡"},{"start":14762.938,"end":14779.693,"text":"當然你有提到這個組總署態度是一件事但是因為這個還是勞動部主管這個勞保條例還是勞動部主管那你可不可以就是嘗試把這個法寫出來就是開始去行動去做爭取那這樣組織總署他就會加進來討論"},{"start":14783.596,"end":14801.796,"text":"你不用自己承擔責任今天從這裡起步那我們解凍的數字可以討論但是你有一個進度嘛不然就是又擺著再過一個幾十年嗎所以我們是在想可不可以這樣就是說因為這個文字上面是寫說今年底前要提出這個修正草案"},{"start":14802.957,"end":14830.285,"text":"我自己是覺得說有沒有可能可以給我們一些時間然後我們願意來研議就是這個最終責任入法的可行性那這當然在研議可行性的過程裡面我們就會跟其他相關的這個組織單位或者是裁組單位因為也不只是組總坦白說不只是組總跟裁組單位來去做這方面的討論你也不用幫行政院擋子彈所以我剛剛講得很清楚就是你來啟動這件事情"},{"start":14830.945,"end":14852.132,"text":"然後就開始有動作 有行動我們願意找相關部會來做這件事情的討論這我們願意你就把它提出來可是我的意思是說今天一個部我今天從一個部的角度我今天要提出一個方案確實很可能我們是要經過在行政院內不同的單位的同意的因為你有一直在重複這件事那這樣這樣就是說我們解凍數字可以討論啦那你這個進度"},{"start":14853.792,"end":14866.302,"text":"或者由你先提出來你這個進度要跑嘛開始動嘛不然我們還是在原位嘛這樣好不好10年後20年還在原位啊我們可不可以比方3個月內我們研議這個最終責任入法的可行性"},{"start":14868.123,"end":14886.257,"text":"我們在三個月內來研議這件事情那在研議的過程當然我們會跟相關的單位來去做財主單位來做討論可是我們就研議這可行性的方式好不好因為我想委員會很希望說我們這十億元其實在整個勞保基金裡面其實可以解凍我想這目標大家是一致的"},{"start":14887.538,"end":14911.226,"text":"那個部長我們在場每一個人都懂延逸是什麼意思延逸就是說今天我們大家回家招致回家什麼事都沒有了當然不是但是就是這個法要啟動你就說你要啟動你把這個法送出來但是不用你自己來扛責任你就是開始跑你就是讓他開始跑行政責任就該行政責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任"},{"start":14915.947,"end":14942.538,"text":"他就說他的研議他要開始做了他就是要開始啦我們就是在研議這件事情所以我們在研議的過程就會找其他單位一起來討論這當然也是一種討論跟就是往入法的方向去走你就是入法入法立委也可以提修法啊你跟我說提研議那這是空白的啊是空白的啊入法我們就直接提修法就可以改啦好來來楊委員要講一下好不好各位先許一下請聽楊委員的講法"},{"start":14944.899,"end":14966.192,"text":"我其實是一直對勞動部遲遲不肯提出政府最終自負責任這件事情是很有意見我相信不同黨派的委員提案版本已經很多那我是建議本委員會就是行政院不提"},{"start":14967.598,"end":14994.781,"text":"我們是不是下一個會期就排審委員的提案委員自己提案嘛他自己通過啊我的已經提案一陣子了我覺得說勞保改革講了這麼多年連政府最終給負責任執政黨都不敢擔保這件事情我自己覺得非常的不可思議"},{"start":14996.242,"end":15014.09,"text":"其他的欄改這個我們可以體諒可是你連讓勞工辛苦了一輩子讓他安心說我一定領得到這個我們都不做我還真的不知道怎麼替黨辯護好請林委員部長等一下"},{"start":15019.398,"end":15035.401,"text":"我必須要再講這裡是講這是保險 社會保險但是呢我們知道這個社會保險的族群太大了上千萬的投保的人還包括未來的移工不要忘了過去那麼多的移工他們都有繳納保費但到第15年要領的時候我們沒有讓他停下來所以他們還沒有他們都沒領他們給他盡責任他們都還沒有拿回他們的權利耶"},{"start":15046.883,"end":15062.493,"text":"他們可以回來領如果未來開放的話也可以領那我們知道這是社會保險社會保險意思是說所有的保護大家共同分擔然後集體去承接住個人這樣才叫做社會保險但是因為這個幾乎是一半的台灣國民了"},{"start":15066.576,"end":15093.678,"text":"一半的台灣國民的時候你政府說社會保險不是政府的福利政策啊那都說不過去所以政府要負最終責任這是既有的但是最終的給負責任絕對不是只有政府嘛不是只有政府但是呢有人主張全部都丟給政府那主張的人就提案就修法然後就可以通過啦"},{"start":15094.551,"end":15111.562,"text":"大家通過就遵照這個法律通過的去執行啊所以這是一個政治這不純粹只是一個制度制度要可長可久那政治隨時可以介入但是我要講說政府當然也有"},{"start":15112.162,"end":15132.332,"text":"道德責任因為一半的國民都是投保的保護這個社會保險雖然是社會保險不是政府的錢算起來也稱不上是政府的責任但是有一半的國民在這個社會保險裡面政府要說沒有責任這是不可能的"},{"start":15133.813,"end":15144.422,"text":"這絕對是不可能的但我們要把法律寫得這麼死嗎法律要寫得這麼死嗎除了法律以外事實上政治責任隨時可以問責嘛"},{"start":15146.345,"end":15161.394,"text":"隨時可以問責 有時候說 不准調漲保費 也不准政府撥補不准調漲保費 這個水池的水都快乾了 也不能調整也不准撥補 現在是怎樣 不能吃草 又要碼而保然後又要領得到 現在是要在地上落下去嗎還不能減少給付"},{"start":15171.638,"end":15178.102,"text":"所以這個制度合一開始研議我們講的不是今天在這裡30分鐘可以討論完的啦人家要讀這麼多年可以說幾天幾夜全國的學者一起來全國的產官學都一起來雇主勞工學界政府通通都一起來幾天幾夜都講不完"},{"start":15196.564,"end":15216.812,"text":"啊今天在這裡,他就說他要開始去研議他就只能這樣子,你還要叫他做怎麼樣你要叫他修法,啊我們立法院,我們立法委員耶我們要修法,我們有意見,我們自己拿出來我們自己可以審嘛你站在民意這一邊,我們就好通過啦就是這麼簡單一個案子要討論喔,認真討論喔,再討論三天也討論不完"},{"start":15225.443,"end":15252.224,"text":"好謝謝來部長要回應來那個我想在一樣在跟陳委員包括幾位委員說明我自己對這個議題我是持開放態度的我確實是覺得政府在這裡面要辦一定的政治責任可是其實就是剛剛像林委員剛才說明的其實有財主單位他們在我們跟他們討論這個過程他們提出來的顧慮也包括是林委員剛才提供的包括在講到這個事情裡面的社會保險的這個性質"},{"start":15254.025,"end":15277.885,"text":"所以這個事情確實是我沒有辦法在這個當下我就代替其他的財主單位說我們就在什麼時候提出我沒有辦法在這個部分做出這樣子的承諾但是我自己或勞動部我們是很願意啟動這個討論的我們是願意啟動這個討論的這也是為什麼說希望文字是讓我們有一個研議的過程那我們的研議過程當然是要找其他單位來討論這就是剛剛"},{"start":15280.627,"end":15306.803,"text":"陳昭智委員講的 啟動這個討論可是我沒有辦法在這邊承諾這件事情最大的責任是老闆啦老闆要繳最多的錢啦我知道 叫老闆來繳錢繳多一點啦問責於老闆啦你就叫老闆來繳錢啦行政院沒有版本啊那就是立法院的版本喔就是立法院的版本喔當然就立法院的版本要來討論大家還是可以討論的事情"},{"start":15307.723,"end":15328.952,"text":"還是可以討論的事情可是我的意思是說如果是要行政部門提出一個代表行政院的版本這裡面涉及到確實很多在行政院不同單位之間對這件事情的看法有些人有些單位可能從政府的政治責任來看這件事情有些會從剛剛就像林委員剛才林淑芬委員剛才講到社會保險的本身的性質來看你不要以後因為我沒有聽到這邊右邊耳朵關起來了麻煩繼續"},{"start":15338.431,"end":15358.972,"text":"因為確實在勞保這是一個社會保險社會保險其實等於是所有參保的人大家一起來共同分擔那所以會有財主單位他也會持這個看法來對於這個保險改革的方向部長我期許說你可以開始為勞工作因為這個事情是長年很久的事情啦但是我們也不是要你一個部長來承擔嘛所以就是說你要嘗試啟動嘛"},{"start":15362.375,"end":15381.012,"text":"那因為立法院這邊一定有版本嘛那如果到時候你們自己沒有版本那立法院的版本我們就推啊對不對這當然是立法院的權益這當然是立法院的權利說相關的法案的審查可是我的意思是說就那你今天可以明確的講你要怎麼做嗎可不可以更具體一點"},{"start":15381.352,"end":15398.141,"text":"我今天就是說跟成員討論說在這一個版本裡面我們是希望是可以給我們三個月的時間裡面來研議這個勞保修正的草案將最終責任入法的可行性我們是希望能不能改成用這個方式那我們會啟動相關討論這啟動當然也會找其他財主單位來去討論我們也會"},{"start":15403.123,"end":15424.268,"text":"不對那個可行性我是比較有點意見啦就是說你就是這個修法就是開始要啟動了啦你現在說可行不可行那你回來跟我說啊不可行啊就結束了大家就回到原點了你那個文字我們討論一下我們等一下這個我的目的是讓你趕快啟動不是要控制你的費用我們請問這個案再稍稍保留一下我們等一下請一下我們再再要保留前讓我發言一下請說明可以可以他講完了我再講好兩位講完了換林委員"},{"start":15432.779,"end":15457.768,"text":"我要求有另外一種方案這個整個勞保政府的撥補政府是誰政府是我們大家每一個納稅人可是這個社會保險責任最重的是雇主腳踢成了是雇主大家都不敢得罪雇主然後不敢漲保費要扛人民之愧叫人民來補雇主的責任"},{"start":15459.675,"end":15464.925,"text":"欸 少子化 你叫人民一直來撥補你們的英文人民都有錢的你們的英文財政都健康正常的"},{"start":15467.102,"end":15479.528,"text":"所以你在研議要加一個如果政府沒有撥補 漲保費 那個狀況會是怎麼樣要放進去 放風險整個社會保險 勞保制度它的風險會怎麼樣 財務估算給它算一下雇主責任才是最重要的雇主都沒責任 等著政府來幫雇主買單對不對 大家都做好人 叫政府"},{"start":15495.831,"end":15512.39,"text":"沒有喔 政府是人民喔 扛人民之愧喔我剛剛又有打開 所以您淑芬委員的意見非常好部長也認真聽 都要把它寄進去那部長就是這樣 我們這個解凍是OK的但是你就是說最終要交給我們的東西是你說剛剛說什麼 你要怎麼"},{"start":15517.035,"end":15538.746,"text":"給我一些進度的報告就是三個月我們會給這個相關這個修法的的研議的可行性啦這樣好不好對那可行性裡面不會可行性裡面不會只說可行或不可行啦就是說相關的這個機制會產生什麼影響對啊包括林委員提出的一些機制你總要啟動嘛我只說你要啟動嘛是是是好不好好那"},{"start":15539.466,"end":15556.362,"text":"主席好啦 我們決定 但是我們等報告報告好好寫 拜託報告好好寫 誠心的寫 誠心的寫好 謝謝本案就同意動之 並通過修正後的互代決議一項要不要宣讀 請宣讀對 請宣讀"},{"start":15566.198,"end":15591.961,"text":"你要給我沒唸也可以你自己唸也可以好那我想這個那個成員這邊有一個提案就我唸最後未確立撥補應常態化給付確定化政府應將最終給付責任入法實為正確最好原提案要求勞動部於三個月內研議勞工保險條例修正草案將政府最終責任入法之可行性以回應國人期待好"},{"start":15592.742,"end":15616.525,"text":"可以啦OK好那我們就照照這樣的戶待局域修正後通過接下來第10案來第10案本案就解斷案有意見如果沒有意見就投意解凍好有意見來"},{"start":15618.866,"end":15635.264,"text":"我這裡想要問一下因為根據預算解凍說明的第三頁有關鼓勵勞工續留職場那有提到為了鼓勵勞工續留職場勞保設有相關機制如老年給付展延年金或是年金給付年資採集無上限等等"},{"start":15635.965,"end":15664.36,"text":"那勞動部也會持續宣導這個勞工保險制度相關規定請問一下勞動部要宣導有沒有設定什麼樣的量化目標如何宣導那過去也有宣導那現在宣導的成效怎麼樣有沒有所謂的宣導成果那我想每一分公帑都是人民的納稅錢剛剛有講所以要宣導我也很同意我只是想要讓也至少讓國人知道一下現在宣導的成效是什麼那我們怎麼去評估"},{"start":15665.202,"end":15683.848,"text":"那另外何況這個部分是連立法院的預算中心都有寫報告裡面有說沒宣費用過度集中部分媒體那我覺得這個有疑慮既然連立法院的預算中心都有寫出這個東西所以就是要請勞動部說明一下這個宣傳的成果給國人知道請簡單扼要重點說明"},{"start":15690.711,"end":15713.661,"text":"各位報告就是勞保的宣導其實我們每一年都有25場次到各縣市政府去宣導每個縣市都有那另外我們在救保或者是災保也都有各各項的研習所以我們對於勞工的比如說承辦人啊投保單位啊或無一定僱主的這些勞工我們都有定期的一些我知道你們怎麼去評估這個成效"},{"start":15714.501,"end":15733.569,"text":"我們其實都有問卷調查對這個研討會的滿意度大概都有到九成滿意度都有到九成所以你說宣導的滿意度有九成對另外就是這個部分現在想要請問一下因為剛剛其實也有討論到這個基金投資運用的部分"},{"start":15734.386,"end":15759.271,"text":"那剛剛有講到現在有關於匯率關稅等等的雙殺那現在我剛剛也有跟我們相關部會討論我這裡是想要再次的強調關於這個避險機制關於避險機制可能要再再去用心一下我們私下有講對不起我插一下好不好因為現在是第十案是在講這個勞動保險業務的預算"},{"start":15763.322,"end":15792.281,"text":"童節節冬安這提案是亞委員你講我剛剛也尊重這是其一但是你也有我的名字聽我講完對不起你講我都沒有差因為我們是報告事項院會交給我們報告事項基本上其實是一包因為剛剛你們沒有來的時候曾昭志委員幫你們提的總共59萬就貼了30項全部要要要保留我其實也不用保留是可以直接就進戶表決"},{"start":15794.503,"end":15804.327,"text":"但是後面我沒有這麼做還是希望說你們要表達意見我是給各位表達意見我們後面還有17個討論事項17案討論事項所以在報告事項裡面我是希望這樣因為我們"},{"start":15809.113,"end":15838.636,"text":"的條件裡面很清楚只要提書面報告就解凍嘛除了說你覺得他的書面報告是不行所以我們是針對這個案這個案來好不好就聚焦在這個案嘛其他後面還有很多案你如果要表達我都可以可以接受我希望你的意思就是要再更精簡一點表達意見嘛對不對好OK好沒有問題喔所以我剛剛只是表達說在這個部分我剛剛質詢到的然後那個相關部門也知道了所以這個案我這邊沒有意見看其他人有沒有意見"},{"start":15839.236,"end":15843.82,"text":"我想提一個跟大家同仁之間講一個程序面的問題其實這個預算對我們委員會相當不公平"},{"start":15848.36,"end":15869.466,"text":"這個委員會大家很認真在這裡不曉得第一案第二案這樣逐條審完而且詳詳細細的審完結果到院會裡面所有委員會審議的結果都沒有被尊重我們通過到那裡隨時人家就翻案翻掉了然後呢又重來一遍然後又到這裡再跑一遍"},{"start":15870.305,"end":15895.531,"text":"我的意思是說,我們希望各黨團都回去跟大家講委員會審議通過的,請他們都不要到院會再翻案那認為有不夠的,盡量都不要否則我們後來都委員會不用審嘛大家才過了工,過了明星,到晚上去跟院會實施都不好,我們在這裡審的委員會中心主義蕩然無存"},{"start":15898.342,"end":15905.773,"text":"在這裡拜託各黨團我們不管誰執政都一樣就是說我們委員會審議要尊重"},{"start":15906.516,"end":15934.045,"text":"不然就說一遍 再說一遍 再說一遍然後到院會再說一遍現在要解凍報告事項再說一遍再去改成討論事項再說一遍這樣我們一條議事 講一條議事講一條有可能在這裡要討論四遍四遍這不是委員會中心主義這真的是在浪費大家 折磨大家嘛"},{"start":15936.021,"end":15959.077,"text":"好 謝謝了 我在這邊再做一個報告因為早上是我們先處理這個院會交付給我們的這個報告事項共計59案那當然有委員提出來有針對30案還有一些意見所以我就暫行保留那報告事項裡面基本上就是只要書面報告提出來那就請各位委員來酌情是不是有意見"},{"start":15959.677,"end":15983.288,"text":"但沒有意見我們就通過 有意見當然我們就看是要表決還是則起這是起義啦齁那另外我們剛剛還有在宣讀有17個案是列入在討論事項裡面那這17案可能是大家還有一些不盡周詳之處要再討論那當然還是要尊重各位我們委員會的意見嘛齁所以這是有兩個部分我來做這樣的一個處理齁所以剛剛有跟各位做這樣的一個報告"},{"start":15985.269,"end":16013.861,"text":"那就看各位怎麼樣然後現在我們先針對第十案第十案是不是請教各位委員本案解凍有意見好沒有意見好謝謝那我們就同意解凍那接下來第十三案好各位就本案解凍有意見各位同仁如果沒有那我們就同意解凍那第十四案好沒有那我們就同意解凍好不好好謝謝第十五案"},{"start":16016.059,"end":16037.562,"text":"如果沒有那我們就同意解凍第16案接下來第16案本案就解凍有意見沒有那我們就解凍第17案本案解凍有無意見沒有那我們就同意解凍其實水電費以外像文宣其實要認真討論啦媒體宣傳費可以認真討論"},{"start":16038.922,"end":16063.89,"text":"阿水電其實是不用討論的 水電可不可以造假 可不可以灌水 可不可以挖井 不可能嘛阿那媒體會 文宣會會不會服用亂用 亂用 欸有可能啊所以要看項目嘛 這種就再講一下好 謝謝來第18案 本恩救解凍案 解凍有意見沒有 那我們就同意解凍第19案"},{"start":16064.971,"end":16087.391,"text":"有一個意見好請說我針對就是外送員報酬那我有一個預算案是希望能夠落實他的薪資計算方式要透明化因為這樣子對勞工來講才有可預測性那勞動部給我的回應那看起來比較像是說好像感覺上是交給了交通部"},{"start":16087.891,"end":16114.366,"text":"因為交通部最近在跟平台談論那個所謂的那個外送的費用的事情那我認為就是說因為那個費用是算是平台的盈利那跟外送員報酬的工資計算方式應該是分開的所以是不是能夠請勞動部還是積極做這件事那我還是可以解凍那我只是跟讓部長知道一下這個回應方式我並不太滿意以上"},{"start":16115.407,"end":16139.85,"text":"可以解凍我先說明好請說明提到提到交通部的原因是因為現在行政院是我們把這個外送平台尤其是這個像uber或者幾個的外送平台的阻擇機關是設在交通部但是確實現在勞動部跟交通部是針對因為剛剛委員在講的其實是關於運價的透明化因為"},{"start":16141.031,"end":16166.261,"text":"外送員的薪資是來自於運價所以主要是運價的透明化的部分我們確實現在是跟交通部一起在做這個事情的討論並沒有都丟給交通部但是因為你們給我的回覆是說等到那邊討論完之後然後也並沒有說要來處理這個事情運價的透明化我們是包括這幾個月一直跟交通部我們一起在討論中所以並不是等交通部自己討論而是一起對我們是一起討論的好那謝謝"},{"start":16170.143,"end":16178.133,"text":"好所以19案我們還是同意解鬥嘛各位沒有意見啦對對19案來19案不好意思主席因為我們其實針對他的報告事項內容去問問題嘛對對對所以這個本木的預算編列是6161萬凍結100萬嘛大概凍結1.6%左右"},{"start":16186.883,"end":16193.27,"text":"那這科目裡面的02的分支計劃編列這151,000元出國經費那依照預算說明是參加這個國際勞工及就業關係協會第14屆的歐洲大會那想要請教一下"},{"start":16201.98,"end":16219.32,"text":"因為我去查了一下這個辦在英國的杜倫大學商學院主要是發表最新研究成果我是好奇想請問勞動部跟所屬的哪個單位或是勞動部有沒有委外給學校做研究讓這個委外成果去投稿並且已經被接受論文發表"},{"start":16220.322,"end":16238.715,"text":"然後第二個就是因為去年也有類似的經費它是也是同一個東西在第二十屆世界年會舉辦地點是紐約但去年是它是年會去年是單也只有編八萬七千元所以這兩個預算弄下去怪怪的所以我想要了解一下是這個是有去投稿或什麼的嗎"},{"start":16241.09,"end":16261.087,"text":"跟委員報告 我們並沒有在任何地方有說明到說我們要去投稿或發表沒有我們並沒有 我在提的報告上也沒有提到就是說我們會去那邊 主要我們都去聽取他們世界現在很多地方的最近的勞資關係的現況"},{"start":16262.788,"end":16285.377,"text":"然後我們帶回來然後在很多政策上做很重要的參考但是因為每一次的地點不太一樣所以那個預算的編列確實因為現在的交通費用也很貴所以有時候如果地點如果太過於遙遠的話我們的費用可能就沒有辦法來吃應OK好我沒有意見好謝謝那第19案我們就同意解凍接下來第20案沒有意見那就同意解凍第21案"},{"start":16291.291,"end":16295.868,"text":"好那同意解凍第二十二案同意解凍第二十四案"},{"start":16302.728,"end":16330.538,"text":"二次案這邊也有一個那我儘快那針對那個性別薪資透明化的部分那勞部部的回覆那有一點點不太沒有回應到透明化比較回應的是同工同酬的檢核表因為同工同酬檢核表就算做得好的話還是有一個性別薪資沒有透明化那我要提醒一下那個是賴清德總統的就是婦女跟性別的相關的政見之一"},{"start":16331.058,"end":16356.58,"text":"好那這部分希望可以加強那另外一個是關於就是針對非個案性別工作平等法裡面非個案的制度性歧視是不是能夠比照勞動檢查法就能夠由工會代表提出申請那可是你們的回覆是不行那這部分我也是希望可以因為法條中好像沒有明定那可是勞動檢查法其實工會就可以代表"},{"start":16356.84,"end":16380.165,"text":"那現在講的是不是個案的而是制度性的歧視譬如說服役那這部分也是希望勞動部可以再思考那第三個是關於我要求職場的性別歧視希望納入性傾向性別認同能夠強化宣傳那這部分肯定你們說你們回覆沒有回覆得很清楚但是後來有跟我們說會找明天團體討論做法那我覺得這樣很好"},{"start":16382.325,"end":16400.293,"text":"最後就是關於也是賴清德總統提出的不分性別家長參與育兒那如果都有就是臨滿六個月的話會加發那你們會回應會修法來處理那這點我表示肯定以上並沒有要凍結只是把我滿意跟覺得不夠好的地方提出來謝謝好 謝謝 陳委員"},{"start":16403.874,"end":16428.252,"text":"好 關於這個解凍報告裡面提到工時的部分啦這邊是想建議部長是不是再多增加幾個部分因為這個總工時非常長期是勞動部你們自己發出來的統計可是你後來又說到說比較全日工時我是覺得你去找裡面對你們比較有利的"},{"start":16430.094,"end":16451.405,"text":"寫進這個報告不是很OK但是今天早上您在外面受訪的時候您有提到說除了增加國定假日還不夠其實變相也等於說您是承認這個工時是長的只是增加假日還不夠你還有很多要繼續努力的地方可是您的解凍報告裡面只有寫說你要用彈性工時去處理"},{"start":16452.97,"end":16477.111,"text":"所以你要不要把你早上零零總總發表的這麼多可以解決工時問題的事都增加進去您的報告裡面您早上接受記者訪問的時候說比如說團體協約也有助透過勞動檢查也有助最低工資等等減少勞工被迫要退休你講了很多耶但是你的解凍報告裡面沒有耶"},{"start":16478.29,"end":16501.785,"text":"這個跟著說明我當然是認為我們的工時的狀況是有是有改善的空間的所以我並沒有覺得說我們現在工時現在就已經表現的很好了並不是這樣所以剛剛講說不管是現在但現在之前大家在討論國定假日的部分休假的部分那或者是團體協約或者是勞檢甚至但"},{"start":16502.885,"end":16524.42,"text":"我們看到一些國家他的工時相對比較低是因為他部分工時的比例比較高所以比方說我們未來如果可以更擴大比方說中高齡或者是婦女在這個重返職場的部分可以做到更多其實在數字上面也會有一些相對起來也會再降低一些可是這些種種的做法都是我們會去做的事情"},{"start":16525.5,"end":16547.763,"text":"這些所有做法都是我們會去做的事情主席是不是剛剛范委員的意見還有我的意見請部長補充到他的報告解凍報告裡面然後我們就解凍可以吧部長這邊同意就報告順便報告可能再修兩位委員的期待這樣好不好那我還是就是同意解凍那接下來第31案"},{"start":16551.038,"end":16555.933,"text":"各位同仁有沒有意見沒有意見那我們就同意解凍第三個事案"},{"start":16557.108,"end":16581.904,"text":"報告主席那四案是有關逃逸移工移工的問題其實今天早上在質詢的時候我前面陳委員林委員也問了非常多表示大家是很在意的可是您的報告是有五點我這邊講一下您有講到五點第一點其實您只是簡單的講移工目前的狀況第二點跟第三點"},{"start":16582.885,"end":16596.38,"text":"是舊的112年就有的但沒有做好所以我們還是會說沒有辦法解決要拿出新的方法第四點其實是一個政策宣示而已您在講說"},{"start":16597.782,"end":16622.851,"text":"持續推動比如說改善缺工改善移工薪資加強仲介管理可是具體你要怎麼做沒有講這個跟你們網站的內容幾乎是一模一樣第五點是我在寫提案的時候就說你們只有三家查三家然後查到有三家行蹤不明真的太少這跟一般人民的認知完全不一樣"},{"start":16624.091,"end":16637.945,"text":"所以我是希望你們加強可以做查核結果你又把它列到解凍報告裡面說已經辦理三次我就是認為三次還有三家行蹤不明真的完全不符合人民的認知啊"},{"start":16642.218,"end":16661.592,"text":"來 請留言我順便針對這題也補充一下第一個依照解凍說明這個112年的失聯移工是3.1萬人113年是2.5萬可是說明裡面沒有提到失聯移工的總數請問一下部長現在最新失聯移工的總數數據是多少截至3月底是多少"},{"start":16662.392,"end":16680.758,"text":"那再來第二個就是補助核發查處機關團體績效獎金4000萬那未來還要規劃調整團體績效獎金之核發方式以激勵團隊查查的士氣請問一下這個是要再提高總體的獎金嗎預計提高多少何時要開始執行"},{"start":16681.843,"end":16702.36,"text":"那另外我們發放團體獎金的目的是什麼看起來就是是不是因為失能讓逃跑移工越來越多制度有問題結果你就一直在補很多的錢進去然後希望大家去努力的去抓和查查所以我覺得這個部分是不是凸顯了在這部分的制度和管理失能以上請部長對面回答好來請說明"},{"start":16706.591,"end":16725.593,"text":"是 謝謝委員的指教我想有關失戀義工的問題是長期也有結構面的問題累積到目前為止失戀人數大概是九萬兩千餘人我們採取了各項的措施包括從需求面跟供給面"},{"start":16726.774,"end":16749.606,"text":"所以在今年這兩年我們其實也針對目前市場上所反映的缺工問題進行一些處理所以在移工的合配包括營造業跟農業的部分我們有採取一些放寬的措施就是解決一些缺工問題也避免這個市場的吸引力那在這個此外我們在管理面上也採取了一些措施"},{"start":16756.947,"end":16770.519,"text":"在管理裡面我們也採取了各項措施包括各位剛所指教的這個強化外國仲介管理的這個部分那確實外國仲介管理的力道也許我們還要再強化因為基本上我們是比較是受理"},{"start":16771.179,"end":16784.066,"text":"民眾的這個檢舉的部分所以可能不是主動的去查查那這個部分我想我們在機制上未來還是有這個精進的空間那現在只要是查獲它試煉比例過高的部分呢我想我們都還是會處以這所謂的聽權處分那讓這個仲介公司稍微有一下"},{"start":16791.05,"end":16818.792,"text":"必須要配合相關的改進那我想我們各項的措施都一直在進行當中那此外在查器面呢我們也是配合移民署以及相關的友軍團隊進一步的去查查那查查的部分呢因為基本上他們這個失聯人數的升高所以確實有一些經費在需求上也會希望我們在基金方面可以予以支持因為他們的收容的人數也越來越高"},{"start":16819.392,"end":16833.334,"text":"那我想這個是整體面的問題都是我們需要跨部會大家一起共同去面對的那現在先做這樣的說明好 李委員好啦 我講白的啦 我現在講白的啦"},{"start":16833.908,"end":16854.121,"text":"因為從COVID-19到現在COVID-19的時候因為外籍移工的引進是停滯的所以從COVID-19那幾年我們對移工管理的政策是視而不見逃跑外籍移工視而不見抓到了當作沒抓到我現在要問我講白的就是要問這個"},{"start":16858.404,"end":16870.534,"text":"因應國內勞動力的短缺供不應求我們對逃跑的外籍移工這個政策還是連續性的基本上的默契是這樣子對不對"},{"start":16871.656,"end":16899.027,"text":"如果是這樣子的話 到將近十萬人的時候難道我們在管理政策上不用與時俱進去想你們如果真的要這樣子那未來是要變更你的管理管理制度要務實的看待 又要納管那方法會是什麼那沒有逃跑的 因為不是比較高那我們對於他們 我們的管理模式也一樣要變革"},{"start":16901.018,"end":16904.58,"text":"所以我就在這裡說這個不要再說抓移工是很大的矛盾還有很大的問題才會去抓啦現在就不去抓移工啊然後也拜託移工逃跑的你也來幫我上班"},{"start":16915.03,"end":16939.059,"text":"營造業 工廠 有沒有用逃跑的他缺工 老闆顧主就罵政府所以現在政府沒有人理他講的啦但越來越多也不是問題但越來越多 怎麼納管務實的納管 就是問題了嘛所以這個問題 應該是要從這裡要有新思維 要有新方法"},{"start":16940.545,"end":16968.257,"text":"好 請陳委員主席我是建議因為剛剛他們也認為他們自己寫的不夠好是不是我們就擇期等他們提供更具體的方法能說服我們委員因為這個議題幾乎是每一個人都很在意很多人在質詢的 謝謝所以妳是建議我是建議擇期啊對 我是建議擇期因為剛剛官員們也認為真的他們寫的不夠好啊他沒有新方法"},{"start":16969.216,"end":16987.586,"text":"部長要再說明是不是?我們今天還是想爭取這個案子能夠解凍但是今天在逃跑移工的問題上面坦白說我自己認為過去有一些管理的作為跟管制的做法其實那個才是因"},{"start":16989.227,"end":17017.7,"text":"那逃跑是或者是逃逸是最後的果所以這裡面確實是涉及到整個我們移工管理制度其實從過去可能是十幾萬二十幾萬到現在已經八九十萬其實在數量的尺度上面都出現一個高度的不同的時候我是同意在這個數量尺度不同的狀況下面我們在移工管理的做法是需要有一些變革而且這變革是可以預見可能未來"},{"start":17018.88,"end":17046.014,"text":"甚至移工的數量在我們少子化跟高齡化的狀況之下未來移工的數量可能再多包括像舊武法46條修過以後是有可能還增加的所以在不同的數量尺度上面會有不同的作為我是同意的可是我還是想針對這還是想要爭取這一案的解凍因為這個部分的制度面的變革說實話它並不是一件簡單的事情大家應該可以理解這幾乎是30年來這是30年來的制度的累積"},{"start":17047.735,"end":17070.821,"text":"所以我們是想爭取這個案子的部分但是我們會來想辦法因為面對要面對這件事因為未來的移工在台灣的數量真的可能還會再繼續增加我們過去的管理的方法我們必須很誠實的面對它是有一些結構性而且某些時空當下我們是設立了這個制度可是未來是不是要調整這個我們要很誠實的面對這個問題我是用這個態度在處理這個問題的"},{"start":17072.921,"end":17088.416,"text":"所以我想新商人以後他也壓力也很大因為我們不斷不斷的都是在討論這個問題甚至我們也希望能夠引進或者是參考別的國家相對應的做法這部分我們都一直在研議中所以可是我們還是希望這個案是不是能夠先讓我們能夠解凍"},{"start":17090.331,"end":17116.22,"text":"主席我發表一下意見我想大家對失業勞工他們帶來對社會的問題真的是非常期待有更好的方式來解決不過針對這一案基本上凍結的數目也不是那麼多所以陳委員這邊可不可以再考量看看如果說在積極的作為上面可以再請勞動部這邊"},{"start":17117.62,"end":17128.586,"text":"有補充說明的話那是不是就能夠讓他依照我們所期待的能夠讓他可以順利的解凍 以上好 網委這麼建立看總委員"},{"start":17131.331,"end":17149.252,"text":"不好意思主席因為他剛講的內容跟他的報告落差真的蠻大的落差很大喔那我們就這樣做一個處理好不好現在休息5分鐘謝謝你們溝通一下這樣好不好因為已經10點半到現在了也讓大家去OK 抱歉趁機會"},{"start":17154.303,"end":17179.563,"text":"還是你要寫一個不太熟悉的?因為你這個...我先講一下,這一組是一個很大的活動它實在是一個非常強大的活動這部份是一個非常強大的活動我們這邊,雖然是兩組的活動但是整個是三條的活動所以我...所以主張一直拚這組的活動所以我沒有進入過一個決定坦白說,剛剛我跟我們講,剛剛我是...大廚部的主持人所以這組是廚師當中的主持人"},{"start":17456.633,"end":17475.1,"text":"好 休息時間到我們針對三十一案嘛 對不起 三十四案來 請說來我們剛剛溝通我們剛剛溝通完畢所以洪部長覺得這是一個三十年的"},{"start":17476.67,"end":17486.862,"text":"老舊的科舊嘛是一時之間他沒有累積下來的所以他一時半刻是沒有辦法想出什麼具體方法但他會補充報告"},{"start":17489.332,"end":17508.383,"text":"補充在這個報告裡陳委員並不是說一時半刻無法想出什麼方法我們其實現在正在研議其實我覺得確實我們這個報告是可以寫得更好第一個比方說我們現在也在強化我們在轉換上面的功能因為很多的移工他是在轉換的過程裡面他可能在等待新的雇主的時候"},{"start":17508.863,"end":17536.608,"text":"他在這裡面他會出現逃跑或失聯的狀況所以我們也在強化我們在轉換中心裡面的功能其實這一兩年經驗的累積目前我們也累積出一些不錯的經驗這裡面是可以盡量的去減少在轉換過程裡面的這個移工的逃跑的問題可是確實我們我剛才看一下我們報告裡面其實沒有提到這些地方這是我們可以再補強的部分所以我們願意把一些該補強部分補強進去可是還是希望爭取今天能夠解凍好"},{"start":17537.228,"end":17549.678,"text":"所以他們會補充資料然後解凍對就同意解凍然後請他們把報告修正後再呈給委員好不好好謝謝好謝謝那事實上我們就同意解凍第35萬來請六人好我這裡有個問題我想要請問一下這個TTQS教育訓練的講師怎麼選的然後你們是怎麼產生的"},{"start":17566.82,"end":17572.345,"text":"來請快說明有嗎可以說明嗎沒辦法說明"},{"start":17598.226,"end":17599.086,"text":"來 請書長說明我也要請同仁說明一下"},{"start":17631.327,"end":17653.929,"text":"TTKS教育訓練講師已經有將近7年我們沒有我們過去領選的方式是會有一個那個專業人員的一個那個考試的一個訓練只是我們已經都大概將近7至少7年以上我們沒有再開這樣子的訓練我們最近一次針對TTKS三類專業人員就是還有一個平和委員跟輔導顧問的那個領選是在最近一次在去年"},{"start":17655.001,"end":17683.55,"text":"辦理的所以因為我為什麼這樣問因為我去上網去查了一下你們這個訓練的講師有多位是沒有學經歷連畢業學校都沒有就一個名字掛在那裡所以如果是業師是不是應該也把相關的經歷寫上去所以我才問說但你們這個到底怎麼產出的我們會擔心你這個是怎麼領選的你是隨便覺得說你可以當講師就來嗎這是我覺得看到我的擔憂"},{"start":17684.91,"end":17711.008,"text":"所以這部分可以解釋一下嗎?有這部分其實那個針對TTQS的那個教育訓練講師其實他都會有一些業界的經驗只是我們在網站上的資訊可能在資訊完整結論的部分我們會再盡快有多位是沒有學經歷連畢業學校都沒有就一個名字關啊對我們會盡快補上好那是要補上之後再解凍嗎?還是我們就是再一個禮拜補上"},{"start":17715.848,"end":17734.235,"text":"好那如果沒有你們一個禮拜內會把它補上好不好然後也把這個你們到底怎麼產生這個TTQS講師的相關資料提供給本席辦公室好那我們就是先同意解凍嘛然後他一個星期內要把相關的資料補送給廖委員好那就同意解凍第三項"},{"start":17741.621,"end":17764.703,"text":"这部分我想要请教一下部长说明一下这个大专青年的预聘计划产业新兼兵计划113年共培训了我看到资料是38936那投资青年就业方案113年说培训了224,008个人那这几个计划是有重复吗这些人有重复吗还是重复计算还是分开的"},{"start":17765.786,"end":17775.41,"text":"報告委員基本上第一個提到的大大人體小人體的計劃培訓是26萬然後這個後面的這個大專青年預聘38000跟後面的所稱的這個職前訓練49000這個都是分開的都是各自的嗎都是各自的計劃然後對象也不同所以他們裡面的人是沒有重複的沒有我們合計總計三支計劃應該是35萬人"},{"start":17789.275,"end":17805.459,"text":"OK那我再提一下因為以審計部的查核意見各年度平均訓後一年是八成但是各領域的班別就業率是大概是71%到95%不等所以而且這個111年的結訓的就業學員他工作內容或就業的行業"},{"start":17809.84,"end":17836.166,"text":"職業別跟訓練職類有關聯的大概只有7成70.38%那我這邊要提醒這部分你們應該要再加強改進看是不是也要回去研議一下把這個改進的措施提供給本席辦公室那這裡我今天可以先解凍我把這些數字告訴你們好可以了好那我們就同意解凍相關資料再補充給廖委員好37案我們就這樣同意解凍38案"},{"start":17842.213,"end":17859.578,"text":"好 38案應該可以來 對不起就本案解凍有意見如果沒有我們就同意解凍好 謝謝40案來 各位就本案解凍有意見如果沒有我們就同意解凍41案各位針對本案解凍有意見沒有那我們就同意解凍42案"},{"start":17872.006,"end":17898.895,"text":"來各位沒有好那我們就本案同意解凍第43案沒有謝謝來本案解凍就同意解凍第45案好沒有好那我們就同意解凍第47案沒有就同意解凍51案好那我們就同意解凍52案"},{"start":17901.087,"end":17903.789,"text":"好那我們就同意解凍54案同意那我們就本案同意解凍55案講一下來講一下好請講我先請教一下就是每年的重大職災平均大概幾件"},{"start":17924.135,"end":17936.663,"text":"歷年來?重大實災,如果有死亡人數,去年已經降到287人叫前一年檢討13個人歷年?對,在前一年是300個人過去是大概300,現在已經慢慢降到200多人了那你們這一案的歷年的預算編列大概落在多少?"},{"start":17962.425,"end":17978.804,"text":"跟委員報告他這個是因為災保法過後過去是災保法之前有編到一千兩百萬那最近這幾年是逐步從六百萬降到四百萬但是問題是你們從來像今年也是去年也是沒有達標今年沒有達標"},{"start":17981.445,"end":17999.527,"text":"就是你要降低你的預算編列降低表示你的這個重大重大職災有下降你才可以減少這個預算的編列嗎可是可是你們設定的目標也沒有減少到你們沒有達標而且再來就是說你去年到今年你才減少13個而已啊"},{"start":18000.385,"end":18013.055,"text":"可以為您報告這個費用主要是用在未加保勞工的一個未住金那現在災保法過後基本上僱用一個人都全部要加保所以他是會用到這個災保基金那邊去"},{"start":18014.361,"end":18037.282,"text":"那在但是過去在歷年來就是說你們都沒有就是說重大重大職災發生的時候你們其實就已經有先調查過了才會列入重大職災的死亡嗎那那你他們在申請這個慰問金的時候就申請的時候你們還要再調查一次"},{"start":18039.478,"end":18053.99,"text":"沒有不用申請基本上現在我們在地方政府都有這個主動的一個專業的服務人員去主動來協助他不是用他申請我們直接就會去協助他了所以這個就有問題啊就是說他主動去協助啊有落實嗎"},{"start":18056.59,"end":18082.65,"text":"我都聽你在說 你有跟沒有 你點頭就是有我們曾經那個中間搞了好久被刁難的好意思講我剛才說了 你們不在吵啊目前 跟委員報告 基本上我們只要掌握到這次重大職災的話都會有專人去服務他是 是這樣子 那你今年執行了多少了"},{"start":18084.139,"end":18100.26,"text":"沒有啊 現在是五月嘛 你們現在大概有處理了幾件去年是26人 那今年我們這邊數據是不是適合再提供給委員對 現在手上沒有資料"},{"start":18101.257,"end":18117.668,"text":"好所以去年也就是只有26個26件事沒有投保的沒有遺漏任何的那因為我我想我提出這個案子我想主要只是只是提醒你們因為這個就是說"},{"start":18119.409,"end":18134.458,"text":"本來就是說一發生好你們調查完認定完其實有些就可以直接主動去發放了那也是希望你們可以落實然後不是說還要在那裡中間刁難東刁難西的好然後再來這個"},{"start":18141.209,"end":18164.781,"text":"這個這個慰問金的發放他是從金額訂定是從民國九十一年開始一直到現在也過了二十幾年了然後這二十幾年當中整個不管你們預算也有增加然後物價也有調漲所以這個部分你們也應該要滾動去滾動式的去檢討他的慰問金的這個金額是否應該要調高是謝謝文官這部分那我們確實是確實已經在檢討"},{"start":18166.542,"end":18179.507,"text":"最近都要簽辦的要適度的調高是好那這個部分我就同意解凍好同意解凍相關的補充報告再呈給陳委員好55案就同意解凍56案好那我們就同意解凍報告事項處理完畢接下來我們現在來審查討論事項第一案請委員有意見沒有那我們就同意解凍討論事項第二案"},{"start":18196.499,"end":18224.97,"text":"有意見如果沒有意義那我們就同意解凍討論事項第三案沒有同意解凍第四案有意義如果沒有就同意解凍第五案有意義沒有就同意解凍第六案有意義沒有意義就同意解凍第七案有意義"},{"start":18226.704,"end":18256.059,"text":"那我們就同意解凍第8案有異議沒有就同意解凍第9案有異議沒有好那我們就同意解凍第10案有異議沒有那我們就同意解凍第11案有異議沒有沒有就同意解凍第12案有異議沒有好那我們就同意解凍第13案有異議沒有同意解凍第14案有異議沒有沒有我們就同意解凍第15案有異議沒有那我們就同意解凍第16案有異議"},{"start":18257.25,"end":18286.344,"text":"沒有就同意解凍第第17案有異議那我們就同意解凍有點不太習慣好謝謝好好現在做以下決定及決議114年度中央政府總預算決議有關勞動部主管預算凍結案計76案含報告事項59案及討論事項17案以上76案均處理完畢那均同意動之"},{"start":18287.36,"end":18297.305,"text":"並提報院會該修正報告給個別人一定要提供好謝謝那本次會議到此結束現在散會好謝謝大家"},{"start":18317.57,"end":18317.811,"text":"謝謝大家。"}]}},{"id":"16677","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16677","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e14eb38c982c93fb98bd03a951da4504b52bdb8234cc31cac451700a12c0c16235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理中華民國114年度中央政府總預算決議有關財政部主管預算凍結書面報告案62案、有關審計部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案及有關行政院主計總處預算凍結書面報告案18案。【報告事項】\n二、處理中華民國114年度中央政府總預算決議有關財政部主管預算凍結專案報告案17案及有關行政院主計總處預算凍結專案報告案1案。【討論事項】\n【5月14日及15日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-15","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-15T08:30:14+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-15T12:52:00+08:00","duration":15706,"影片長度":"04:21:46","委員發言時間":"08:30:14 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謝謝首先"},{"start":1821.584,"end":1823.866,"text":"哇,都沒有耶,都沒膽耶"},{"start":1852.363,"end":1865.648,"text":"那我首先先介紹在現場的那個議會的政府官員首先我們先介紹財政部部長莊翠雲莊部長還有綜合規劃司理事長"},{"start":1875.753,"end":1894.506,"text":"國際財政司包副司長推動處參司張司長人事處張處長會計處李處長我們就不用拍手了因為都是我們自己的同仁我們互相鼓勵一下介紹我們統計處劉護處長政風處許處長法治處姚處長秘書處楊處長國庫署陳署長護稅署宋署長"},{"start":1904.298,"end":1908.126,"text":"那我們的關務署彭署長國有財產署曾署長"},{"start":1911.288,"end":1929.677,"text":"財政資訊中心張主任財政人員訓練所許所長台北國稅局吳局長還有我們高雄國稅局翁局長北區國稅局李局長中區國稅局樓局長南區國稅局李局長那接著我們介紹審計部我們的審計長陳瑞銘審計長謝謝那我們會計師王主任"},{"start":1937.588,"end":1948.592,"text":"那我們再介紹我們的主計總長陳淑芝那我們公務預算處許處長基金預算處潘處長會計結算處許處長綜合統計處蔡處長國事普查處潘處長主計資訊處吳處長"},{"start":1962.399,"end":1979.233,"text":"綜合規劃處 協護處長人事處 許處長 秘書室 張主任 針鋒室 陳主任還有主計 主計室 張主任最後介紹主計人員信念中心 張執行長 歡迎我們介紹在場的委員 吳秉正委員"},{"start":1991.175,"end":2019.246,"text":"那請議事人員先讀報告4項有關中華民國114年度中央政府總預算財政部主管預算解凍案書面報告62案審計部主管預算解凍案書面報告4案及行政院主計總處主管預算解凍案書面報告18案那請問各位好那我們請議事人員先讀"},{"start":2021.049,"end":2040.728,"text":"1.處理中華民國114年度中央政府總預算決議有關財政部主管預算凍結書面報告案62案1.財政部新增決議凍結財政部之業務費預算10%書面報告案2.財政部決議凍結第一項一般行政向下基本行政工作維持之業務費預算1%書面報告案"},{"start":2043.55,"end":2068.197,"text":"三 凍結第一幕向下基本行政工作維持之業務費預算三百萬元書面報告案四 凍結第一幕向下基本行政工作維持中業務費之教育訓練費預算十分之一書面報告案五 第四項凍結第三幕出餐業務向下促進民間參與公共建設業務預算二十分之一書面報告案第五項凍結第三幕"},{"start":2069.098,"end":2076.338,"text":"向下促進民間參與公共建設業務預算二十分之一書面報告案第七案凍結第三幕向下"},{"start":2077.87,"end":2104.831,"text":"促进民间参与公共建设置业务非预算十分之一书面报告案八 冻结第三幕向下促进民间参与公共建设置业务非预算二十分之一书面报告案九 冻结第六幕捐助支出预算八百万元书面报告案十 国库署决议冻结第二幕国库业务预算二十分之一书面报告案十一案冻结第二幕国库业务预算两百万元书面报告案十二 冻结第二幕"},{"start":2105.271,"end":2126.447,"text":"向下債務管理作業之業務費預算五分之一書面報告案十三案凍結第二幕向下財務規劃作業預算二十分之一書面報告案十四國庫署新增決議凍結第二幕向下菸酒管理作業預算百分之十書面報告案十五國庫署決議第五項凍結第二幕向下"},{"start":2127.348,"end":2151.522,"text":"私列菸品茶器作業預算二十分之一書面報告案十六第六項凍結第二幕向下私列菸品茶器作業預算二十分之一書面報告案十七凍結第二幕向下私列菸品茶器作業預算兩百萬元書面報告案十八凍結第二幕向下私列菸品茶器作業預算二十分之一書面報告案"},{"start":2153.597,"end":2170.969,"text":"19 複稅署決議第一項凍結第一幕一般行政向下基本行政工作維持預算150萬元書面報告案20 第二項凍結第一幕向下基本行政工作維持預算150萬元書面報告案21 第三項凍結第一幕向下基本行政工作維持預算150萬元書面報告案"},{"start":2173.431,"end":2185.025,"text":"22.第四項凍結第一幕向下基本行政工作維持預算150萬元書面報告案第五項凍結第二幕付稅業務預算50萬元24.第六項凍結第二幕付稅業務預算50萬元書面報告案25.凍結第二幕付稅業務向下革新稅制改"},{"start":2193.234,"end":2198.095,"text":"綜合及基增業務經費預算十分之一書面報告案二十九 凍結第三幕統一發票"},{"start":2221.2,"end":2236.626,"text":"給獎及推行預算百一百萬元書面報告案三十案凍結第三目向下統一發票給獎及推行中業務費至一般事務費媒體政策及業務宣導費預算十分之一書面報告案三十一高雄國稅局決議凍結第二步國稅"},{"start":2240.441,"end":2266.153,"text":"急增業務向下電子處理及運用中業務費資資訊服務費預算十分之一書面報告案三十二北區國稅局及所屬決議凍結第三幕一般建築及設備第一節營建工程向下構建辦公大樓中設備及投資之房屋建築及設備費預算二十分之一書面報告案三十三中區國稅局及所屬決議凍結第一幕一般行政向下基本行政工作維持中"},{"start":2267.034,"end":2268.097,"text":"設備及投資之雜項設備費預算十分之一書面報告案"},{"start":2272.375,"end":2296.651,"text":"三十四 關務署及所屬決議第一項 凍結第一幕一般行政預算三百萬元書面報告案三十五 凍結第一幕向下基本行政工作維持三百萬元預算書面報告案三十六 第三項凍結第二幕關稅業務預算五百萬元書面報告案三十七 第四項凍結第二幕關稅業務預算五百萬元書面報告案第五項 凍結第二幕關稅業務預算五百萬元書面報告案"},{"start":2303.995,"end":2323.08,"text":"第六項凍結第二幕關稅業務預算五百萬元書面報告案四十凍結第二幕關稅業務向下查緝業務預算十分之一書面報告案四十一凍結第二幕關稅業務向下查緝業務之旅客行李檢查及貨物查緝處理等經費預算一百萬元書面報告案"},{"start":2325.365,"end":2327.868,"text":"四十二凍結第二幕關稅業務向下關稅資料處理預算凍結五百萬元書面報告案"},{"start":2334.682,"end":2360.664,"text":"四十三 凍結第二幕關稅業務向下數位海關再造計畫預算五百萬元書面報告案四十四 凍結第二幕向下數位海關再造計畫預算十分之一書面報告案四十五 國有財產署及所屬決議凍結第二幕國有財產業務向下國有財產接收保管之業務費預算二十分之一書面報告案四十六 第二項凍結第二幕"},{"start":2362.185,"end":2382.786,"text":"向下國有財產接收保管之業務費預算兩百萬元書面報告案四十七 第三項 凍結第二幕國有財產業務向下國有財產管理處分之業務費預算兩百萬元書面報告案四十八 第四項 凍結第二幕向下國有財產管理處分之業務費預算兩百萬元書面報告案四十九"},{"start":2383.979,"end":2407.526,"text":"第五項 凍結第二幕向下國有財產管理處分之業務費預算兩百萬元書面報告案五十 第六項 凍結第二幕向下國有財產管理處分業務費預算兩百萬元書面報告案五十一 第七項 凍結第二幕向下國有財產管理處分之業務費預算兩百萬元書面報告案五十二 第九項 凍結第二幕向下國有財產管理處分之業務費預算兩百萬元書面報告案"},{"start":2411.892,"end":2436.262,"text":"五十三 凍結第二幕國有財產業務向下國有財產管理處分之國有非公用文化資產修復及管理維護計劃預算一百萬元書面報告案五十四 凍結第二幕向下國有財產管理處分之強勢外來入侵總移除防治及復育計劃預算二十分之一書面報告案十一項 五十五案第十一項凍結第二幕國有財產"},{"start":2438.043,"end":2451.55,"text":"業務向下國有財產管理國有財產改良利用預算二十分之一書面報告案五十六第十二項凍結第二幕向下國有財產改良利用預算二十分之一書面報告案五十七凍結第二幕"},{"start":2453.292,"end":2467.851,"text":"項下國有公用財產之業務費預算二十分之一書面報告案五十八動結第二幕項下國有公用財產中設備及投資之機械設備費預算一百二十萬元書面報告案五十九"},{"start":2469.172,"end":2486.608,"text":"動結第三幕一般建築及設備第一階營建工程預算二十分之一書面報告案六十財政資訊中心決議動結第二幕財政資訊預算五百萬元書面報告案六十一動結第二幕財政資訊業務向下電子發票管理經費預算二十分之一書面報告案六十二動結"},{"start":2489.01,"end":2511.977,"text":"動結第二幕向下電子發票管理經費中業務費之一般事務費預算十分之一書面報告案二有關審計部主管預算凍結書面報告案四案一審計部決議凍結第一幕一般行政向下基本行政工作維持中業務費之物品預算十分之一書面報告案二凍結第二幕中央政府審計向下中央"},{"start":2513.41,"end":2539.18,"text":"政府審計工作至業務費預算五十萬元書面報告案三 凍結第二幕向下中央政府審計工作中業務費至國內組織會費預算兩萬元書面報告案四 凍結第三幕縣市地方審計向下縣市地方審計工作預算十分之一書面報告案三 有關行政院主計總署預算凍結書面報告案十八案一 行政院主計總署新增決議凍結行政院"},{"start":2541.061,"end":2567.811,"text":"主計總出預算五千萬元書面報告案二凍結第七目主計訓練業務向下主計人員訓練之業務費預算十分之一書面報告案三行政院主計總出凍結第一目一般行政向下扣除人事費外預算十分之一書面報告案四凍結第一目一般行政預算四百萬元書面報告案五凍結第一目一般行政向下政府內部控制監督機制規劃及督導向下"},{"start":2569.765,"end":2588.75,"text":"預算二十二萬元書面報告案六 凍結第一幕向下政府內部控制監督機制及規劃及督導預算十分之一書面報告案七 凍結第二幕中央總預算和編輯執行預算十分之一書面報告案八 凍結第二幕向下中央總預算"},{"start":2590.31,"end":2608.679,"text":"之河邊及與執行預算十分之一書面報告案9 凍結第2幕向下地方政府主計業務之督導與查核之業務費預算十分之一書面報告案10 凍結第2幕向下地方政府主計業務之督導與查核預算十分之一書面報告案"},{"start":2609.539,"end":2623.549,"text":"11.冻结第三幕特种基金预算合编及执行预算十分之一书面报告案第四幕会计及决算业务向下会计事务处理及决算合编预算五十万元书面报告案13."},{"start":2623.549,"end":2626.091,"text":"冻结第五幕综合统计业务向下办理"},{"start":2627.865,"end":2642.612,"text":"統計行政與統計標準之業務費預算五分之一書面報告案十四凍結第五目綜合統計業務向下辦理綜合統計預算十分之一書面報告案十五凍結第五目向下辦理綜合統計中業務費之贈送物價"},{"start":2646.914,"end":2661.219,"text":"金融業概況調查民營電廠營運局投資概況調查傳播業營收及固定投資概況調查與服務業營運及投資概況調查廠商等紀念品預算五分之一書面報告案"},{"start":2663.079,"end":2682.354,"text":"凍結第六目 國事普查業務向下國庫統計預算二分之一書面報告案十七 凍結第六目 國事普查業務向下各機關統計調查及調查網管理預算十分之一書面報告案十八 凍結第八目 主計諮詢業務預算二十分之一書面報告案 宣讀完畢好 我們再介紹 在現場林德虎委員"},{"start":2693.203,"end":2714.042,"text":"請問各位委員針對以上財政部預算解凍案書面的報告62案審計部4案行政院主計總署18案有沒有異議沒有好 沒有異議那主席先步就是好 既然是沒有異議我們的書面報告完成準以動之提報宴會"},{"start":2715.694,"end":2717.917,"text":"處理中華民國114年度中央政府總預算決議"},{"start":2735.137,"end":2747.82,"text":"有關財政部主管預算凍結專案報告17案第一案 財政部新增決議凍結財政部3000萬元專案報告案二 凍結財政部預算100萬元專案報告案三 凍結財政部之業務費預算40%專案報告案四 凍結第一目一班行政預算1000萬元專案報告案五 國庫署新增決議凍結國庫署之業務費預算30%專案報告案"},{"start":2763.745,"end":2767.287,"text":"6.凍結第一幕一般行政向下基本行政工作維持及業務費預算凍結200萬元專案報告案7."},{"start":2767.287,"end":2769.889,"text":"凍結第二幕國庫業務向下撕裂菸品茶器作業預算500萬元專案報告案8."},{"start":2769.889,"end":2771.831,"text":"複稅署新增決議凍結複稅署之業務費預算30%專案報告案9."},{"start":2771.831,"end":2773.012,"text":"台北國稅局新增決議凍結台北國稅局業務費"},{"start":2789.324,"end":2805.069,"text":"百分之三十專案報告案十 高雄國稅局新增決議凍結高雄國稅局之業務費預算百分之三十專案報告案十一 北區國稅局所屬新增決議凍結北區國稅局所屬之業務費預算百分之三十專案報告案十二 中區國稅局所屬新增決議凍結中區國稅局所屬之業務費預算百分之三十專案報告案"},{"start":2813.492,"end":2818.456,"text":"13.南區國稅局及所屬新增決議凍結南區國稅局及所屬之業務費預算30%專案報告案14."},{"start":2818.456,"end":2820.658,"text":"官務署及所屬新增決議凍結官務署之業務費預算30%專案報告案15."},{"start":2820.658,"end":2823.481,"text":"國有財產署及所屬新增決議凍結國有財產署之業務費預算30%專案報告案16."},{"start":2823.481,"end":2825.182,"text":"凍結第二幕國有財產業務向下國有財產管理儲備預算1000萬元"},{"start":2841.056,"end":2841.737,"text":"專案報告案17."},{"start":2841.737,"end":2843.538,"text":"財政資訊中心新增決議凍結財政資訊中心之業務費預算30%專案報告案2."},{"start":2843.538,"end":2844.92,"text":"有關行政院主計總署預算凍結專案報告案1."},{"start":2844.92,"end":2847.802,"text":"行政院主計總署新增決議凍結行政院主計總署之業務費預算40%專案報告案宣讀完畢"},{"start":2865.148,"end":2881.708,"text":"好 今日議程安排處理中華民國一百一十四年度中央政府總預算財政部主管預算解凍案專案報告十七案行政院主計總處主管預算解凍案專案報告一案請財政部部長"},{"start":2883.586,"end":2894.014,"text":"請財政部部長跟行政院主計總處陳主計長分別就預算的解凍案進行報告我們首先先請財政部莊部長就預算解凍案進行報告主席各位委員先進大家早首先感謝貴委員會審查以及處理114年度有關本部的預算"},{"start":2909.437,"end":2931.303,"text":"解冻案冻结报告的79案我现在仅就17案的专案报告内容做简要的一个报告有关本部预算以及业务费跟一般行政的预算的事项这主要都是要办理租税以及官务的协定的洽签以及国际组织参与以及财政合作以及推动促餐等等各项业务以及维持各项我们的公务基本行政"},{"start":2931.863,"end":2956.529,"text":"的運作所需要的至於大院所關注的財政收支劃分法修正案的研議情形我們已經持續通盤檢討以及精進那至於有關直轄市三地原住民區自治財源的改善方案本部也邀請相關機關會商以後認為以強化直轄市設算補助的機制具有可行性的那至於新清安貸款的政策目的以及優化措施"},{"start":2956.989,"end":2977.88,"text":"那麼以及督請公股銀行加強貸款的管理以及查核高風險案件相關的詳細內容請參閱我們的報告第一頁到第三頁有關本部國庫署業務費以及一般行政還有國庫業務的預算三項這主要是辦理中央政府各個資用機關的經費款項的集中支付強化庫政"},{"start":2979.081,"end":2991.602,"text":"以及債務管理等等各項業務並且是維持我們國庫署各項公務基本行政運作所需要的至於大院所關注的強化公股金融事業重大訊息的介入機制"},{"start":2992.93,"end":2998.335,"text":"我們已經督請所屬事業延提機制並且滾動的精進那麼針對新型撕裂菸品違法太陽研議相關查緝措施方面我們已經建立作業流程加強查緝那麼詳細內容請參閱報告第三頁跟第四頁有關本部的賦稅署業務費的預算"},{"start":3013.63,"end":3018.591,"text":"那這主要是要辦理我們的革新稅制改善稅政以及稅務激增等等各項業務以及維持我們複稅署各項公務基本行政運作所需要那麼有關各地區國稅局還有所屬的業務費的預算的五項的凍結的部分這些預算主要是辦理我們各項稅務的徵收退稅欠稅的清理等等業務那麼"},{"start":3037.955,"end":3064.481,"text":"以及租稅教育的宣導以及維持各項公務基本行政運作所需要另外就是我們的關務署及所屬的業務費的預算的部分我們主要是辦理進口貨物通關及課徵關稅以及代徵貨物稅以及對出入境旅客的行李檢查郵包還有進出口等貨物的查緝所需要的經費以及各項公務基本行政運作所必要的經費"},{"start":3065.521,"end":3091.215,"text":"那另外有關國產署以及所屬的業務費及國產業務的預算這個部分主要是辦理國有財產的接收保管管理處分及改良利用等等業務也是維持各項公務基本行政運作所需要的對大院所關注的蠶儲山地區國有土地被佔用的處理情形我們已經列為專案已經專案列管並且建立通案的處理機制詳情請參閱報告的第六頁"},{"start":3094.727,"end":3118.907,"text":"對於有關我們財政資訊中心的業務費的預算主要是辦理國稅地方稅等重要核心系統的維運以及精進各項網路申報的服務還有維持我們本部共用資料中心機房所需要的電力還有網路的通訊以及維持各項公務基本行政運作所需要的必要的經費中項本部以及所屬114年度的預算"},{"start":3119.347,"end":3142.669,"text":"都是办理国库付税官务国产财政资讯以及促餐等核心业务所必要的经费都是按照业务需求以及本则尊爵的原则核实的编列本部及所属机关一定会善用资源严谨的执行每项经费恳请各位委员支持同意动之相关预算并请指教谢谢"},{"start":3145.37,"end":3150.335,"text":"好 謝謝部長 我們依序請行政院主計總處陳祖記長就預算解凍案進行報告"},{"start":3160.236,"end":3168.441,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生今天應邀貴席委員會來報告自感榮幸請就大院對本總處114年度單位預算所作凍結約40%的決議提出檢要報告本總處的"},{"start":3177.848,"end":3196.895,"text":"預算執行的一個情形近兩年大概執行率是98%到99%那上半年一般執行率是34%和32%約三成所以業務的大額支付都是在下半年都是在下半年那所以我們114年度預算編列員編列3億7573萬7千元經大院刪減後改列為3億6184萬"},{"start":3206.138,"end":3233.809,"text":"2000元所以這上截至目前為止呢我們是在預算數的12%但是我們到第三季的時候必須支付61%所以如果執行到40%才來申請解凍那對業務上是有這個執行的一個落差那這個本身的業務如果沒有辦法如期的一個解凍那影響的部分主要有主計諮詢業務的部分"},{"start":3235.61,"end":3241.596,"text":"還有一個國事普查就是辦理五年一次的農林普查還有工業和服務業普查還有一個統計業務相關的一個產業和關聯統計還有總體經濟預測和家庭收支的一個統計等還有本總處的基本行政"},{"start":3255.228,"end":3265.931,"text":"相關的一個預算如能未能解凍將無法按時置戶水電會和協助行政事務工作保全等的一個相關費用以上本總署114年預算凍結影響情形說明請各委員示價並請同意預算解凍備立本總署各項施政和業務的一個順利進行 謝謝好 謝謝主計長現在開始詢答 先做以下的宣告"},{"start":3280.876,"end":3298.737,"text":"每位出席的委員花言的時間是8分鐘必要的時候得延長2分鐘每位列席的委員花言的時間是4分鐘那今天上午10點我們截止花言登記現在依登記順序請登記第一位的林德虎委員質詢"},{"start":3312.099,"end":3316.64,"text":"謝謝謝謝主席是不是請那個主記長陳主記長還有莊部長莊部長跟陳主記長委員好那個部長還有主記長委員好因為我們都知道"},{"start":3336.055,"end":3359.527,"text":"我們最近我們希望這個核電核三廠能夠研議而且這個案子我們主動提出就是希望政府能夠去在這個研議以前甚至於未來政府希望能夠做一些檢查以後繼續使用因為核電是最經濟的電而且最乾淨的電"},{"start":3361.608,"end":3383.424,"text":"現在全世界都把核電列為像綠電一樣目前台電我們已經從過去到現在已經撥補3000億給他了最近當然我們又要1000億但是昨天卓院長特別提說"},{"start":3384.887,"end":3404.2,"text":"這一千萬要是不給的話他馬上又要漲電價其實給三千億從過去到現在而且也漲了四次我相信大家都很清楚不是沒有漲價但是你一個人員的政策你要是說沒有一個長遠性你台電這個窟窿是永遠補不滿的"},{"start":3407.682,"end":3435.458,"text":"阿你們也沒有提出一個比較長遠的一個政策規劃然後就是也要漲價反正我們這次要是不給一千億你馬上說說要漲價要電價審議委員會要來做漲價的這個審議那我認為這個窟窿是永遠永遠填不滿阿政府又沒有提出一個好的政策主席長你有什麼看法你告訴我"},{"start":3438.157,"end":3464.261,"text":"其實這個電價它是主要是動漲動漲它動漲也好幾次所以民生的電價它是動漲所以上次的動漲導致台電它有虧損虧損也補了三千億但是三千億上次那個是增資的部分所以這個部分是主要是彌補它動漲的一個虧損那我請問你這次要是一千億給了到底"},{"start":3466.009,"end":3491.889,"text":"這個在未來會不會繼續漲價你告訴我因為上次動漲的虧損總共有兩千多億那所以我們是預計補兩千億但是目前如果說一千億那是補一半但是補一半也是比能讓他的情況更好那因為其他國外的話他漲得更多那我們是主要是因為民生的電價我們有動漲是這樣 主席長我們很清楚"},{"start":3492.85,"end":3508.989,"text":"因為核電是最經濟的電一度只有一塊多那你因為你綠電風電光電我們都知道五六塊六七塊所以說台電只要給一度就是要虧損年年所以說每一年要補"},{"start":3510.31,"end":3527.702,"text":"那而且是這個洞是永遠補不完我就舉個例子啦你像那個離岸風電夏天風氣不轉夏天用電最多家家戶戶都要用冷氣但是冬天啊當你不要用電的時候不要用那麼多電的時候"},{"start":3528.962,"end":3549.756,"text":"24小時一直轉因為有東北季風嘛對不對光離岸風電一年就要虧損455億你去查我絕對不是亂講話20年就虧損9100億所以說台電那個窟窿是永遠補不完的啦那你今天要是沒有用核電安定的電而且經濟的電我認為啦"},{"start":3553.579,"end":3571.246,"text":"政府拿不出一個比較好的方式你就揮霍家園就一句話整個把台電搞得他永遠是一個大窟窿而且是補不完喔主計長你身為主計那個莊部長你有什麼看法你告訴我跟委員報告剛剛對於台電的這個財務的狀況主計長您說的很清楚了我想在"},{"start":3580.185,"end":3582.973,"text":"用電的部分不管是核電也好或綠電也好這設計都非常大的一個專業那昨天"},{"start":3586.641,"end":3605.571,"text":"其實委員會包含經濟委員會跟財政委員會聯席會議裡面已經說得很清楚核電的運用第一個核安的問題還有核廢料的事情以及全民的共識這個都是要充分的一個考量的那其他的國家鄰近的國家沒有核安的問題嗎沒有這些問題嗎只有我們有嗎對不對其實我認為啦"},{"start":3611.175,"end":3634.588,"text":"我們都知道那些核電那些光電風電是你要有關係你才能夠拿到那站在我的看法你今天這些就是因為要有關係都是綠油油的所以說他們長期啊你看賴金寧他有19家光電一年賺台電賺多少錢大家清清楚楚的嘛"},{"start":3635.308,"end":3650.039,"text":"對不對這個不必掩飾也不必掩蓋我們今天是要解決問題這個是永遠存在的問題今天你不解決未來還是存在而且是一個大窟窿永遠補不完你要漲價要"},{"start":3652.24,"end":3679.136,"text":"而且已經通過整個河管讓你能夠研議你只要把它檢查好繼續使用那我們政府偏偏就是不要老百姓有什麼看法老百姓認為說可能你就是因為要挺那些有關係的人讓他們能夠長期持有長期這個是他們最大的利益啊對不對所以說你不願意就是把核電廠來解套"},{"start":3681.397,"end":3709.743,"text":"老百姓是看不下去的講實在話我們希望說站在政府部會首長的立場你們要眼光放長遠一點要以老百姓他們為依歸我們是希望說因為你電要是便宜經濟會提升那你不要說用這個來卡這個講實在話人們是看不下去的那個莊部長外媒披露這個美國"},{"start":3711.606,"end":3740.352,"text":"這是包括這個披露美韓財政官員以五月初商討匯率的問題那那個陳主席長在接受質詢時也說新台幣升值會讓台灣整個經濟成長表現會降低一些那如果突破彭淮南的黃線前年經濟成長率將下降下修到0.1%的百分點那我請問部長如果台美官"},{"start":3741.432,"end":3748.334,"text":"這關稅貿易談判涉及匯率啊據財政部的立場你會主張有哪些談判的建議對於我們台灣和美國之間有關關稅政策的一個談判那這個部分的已經在5月1號由政府院長領軍到美國去做初步的一個諮商那我想後續呢會有一些更具體或更細節的一個交流跟"},{"start":3769.19,"end":3776.176,"text":"討論我想這個部分那至於有沒有並沒有談到匯率的問題但是32多32塊多確實是降到30現在30.2跟30.5中間在徘徊那部長你認為未來我們新台幣要升值到多少才會對國內進出口業有負面的影響"},{"start":3793.302,"end":3800.456,"text":"當然匯率的一個變動它事實上是按照市場的供需會有一個波動那我們也知道其實新台幣的匯率從27.5到33之間都有過"},{"start":3804.622,"end":3819.208,"text":"那要看長期的一個趨勢如果是短期間的話那他的影響基本上不是非常的明顯但是這段時間你看那麼短的時間就馬上這個從32點多降到30幾乎30周邊在徘徊啦因為市場所稱的彭華樑環境就是新台幣28.5兌換一美元如果發生在會下修只要"},{"start":3830.353,"end":3839.379,"text":"降到28.5美元那個新台幣降到28.5對一美元那就下修0.1%的GDP啦那我請問你認為對財政部稅收又會發生哪些影響衝擊呢當然稅收會跟整個國際經濟情勢還有國內的一個經濟都會有關聯那央行那一天總裁也提了沒有所謂的澎華南防線"},{"start":3858.188,"end":3867.301,"text":"那對匯率的部分央行也都持續在關注那對那一天的一個比較大幅度的一個波動他們也有做相關的一些措施"},{"start":3868.716,"end":3893.676,"text":"4月稅收短少全球關稅談判未定再加上對經濟成長的預測又多次下調那請問你認為今年稅收不如去年是不是已經成定數你認為呢今年的稅收啊其實我們原來編的預算是超過去年13年的13年的時增數大概超過900多億我們在預算的編列上已經是有比去年的時增數來得高"},{"start":3894.797,"end":3909.703,"text":"那以到四月來說的話對於全國的部分確實比去年同期有減少大概85億主要是證交稅的部分因為證交稅它的日均量"},{"start":3910.851,"end":3932.84,"text":"原來我們所預估的也跟去年的日均量來的低大概目前1到4月日均量是3900多億而跟去年大概有到4600億是有差距所以說只有證交稅有影響其他都沒有影響嗎主要是我們現在看到的收的數字跟有影響的部分是證交稅其他的部分變動不大那至於像遺產稅跟證語稅這個都是屬於機會稅這個不能夠當作部長"},{"start":3938.342,"end":3953.195,"text":"主席長目前還未定數啦因為怎麼講你看對岸他們硬幫幫死盤盤結果你看川普這邊他就降了而且降到讓人民有感但是我們的政府啊幾乎啦"},{"start":3954.036,"end":3979.987,"text":"人家說要你站著你就趴著對不對啊人家要你坐著你就跪著講實在話真的最近我看那個社論啦評論啦評語啦真的對我們現在政府這樣操作方式齁真的極不能接受啦我們是希望說經濟要提升怎麼提升該硬還是要硬啦不是軟趴趴的人家講一我們做到三給人家那個不通的啦"},{"start":3981.408,"end":3986.855,"text":"跟委員說明那對於關稅政策4月2號川普政府公布以後對等關稅台灣達到32%這個部分"},{"start":3989.42,"end":3998.763,"text":"政府行政院緊急的提出了邀請各部會我們提出了支持方案對產業的一個支持就是穩定產業安定民心後續的諮商相信也會在於維持我們的產業競爭力的前提之下去跟美國做溝通另外對非關稅的貿易壁壘部分我們也會做好的一個安排"},{"start":4011.328,"end":4021.919,"text":"你看那個日本韓國人他們也多硬我們從媒體各方面都看得清清楚楚的只有我們是軟趴趴的政府不應該有這種這樣的態度啦我希望你們要硬起來啦謝謝"},{"start":4038.786,"end":4062.815,"text":"主席請財政部莊部長好請財政部委員好部長本來這個月是報所得稅的月但是因為這個美國提高關稅的問題為了因應稅你可以延到六月底才來申報但是以前有一個"},{"start":4064.504,"end":4090.212,"text":"這個很方便的地方就是說我可以在電腦上面查詢我的這個應該要繳稅的這些應該要繳稅的這些稅額的資料那因為被動了這個預算之後之前有網友在網路上講說現在你們不提供這個電腦的連線服務說自己要向資本申請要向銀行什麼申請這些東西有沒有這樣的狀況"},{"start":4091.851,"end":4116.649,"text":"第一個對於報稅部分沒有我們報稅部分一定是要讓民眾更方便至於剛剛委員提到我知道是好像是那個財產申報就公務人員的財產申報過往有可以透過去去他們透過去授權給監察院去查現在沒有經費了所以要大家用紙本而造成很大的一個困擾那在報稅的部分我們一定維持最好為民眾最便利的一個方式"},{"start":4116.869,"end":4141.134,"text":"那今天的無論是書面報告還是專案報告如果真的能夠解凍完成經過院會通過之後那會有怎麼樣子的你們的這個業務啊各方面就都可以解凍不會受影響了嗎如果能夠解凍當然可以讓我們的業務後續可以持續推動因為如果不解凍的話我們後面就無以為繼那其實還有就是被刪的部分是"},{"start":4141.674,"end":4148.08,"text":"更嚴重因為刪的沒有辦法回復了那尤其像政策宣導費刪了60%國內旅費刪20%等等很多被刪了以後我們現在就是一直用很非常節約集中節這個等等方式那凍結的部分如果讓我們解凍我們後面可以持續的一些推動如果不解凍的話就無以為繼了"},{"start":4162.919,"end":4182.924,"text":"那之前為了那個財政收支劃分法你們過去有在找地方政府要去討論然後去收斂那一些公式的指標把那個比較多的指標收斂成比較少那當然本院在多數暴力之下就倉促的通過這個財政收支劃分法"},{"start":4183.624,"end":4203.465,"text":"不過你們現在在進行這個業務有在繼續進行嗎有繼續在跟地方政府在討論這個指標如何能夠縮減然後如何能夠凝聚最大的共識來產生如何分配的這些的水平分配方面的這些觀念這個有聚焦嗎有繼續在做這個工作嗎"},{"start":4204.805,"end":4221.811,"text":"確實我們在3月6號又再召開了一支會議包含專家學者跟地方政府來開會那對我們也把那個指標還有跟權重還有調整系統等等非常的細節都拿出來討論當然部分地方政府還是有不同的意見這個部分都還要凝聚共識這個確實是這樣所以還會再繼續繼續工作"},{"start":4225.792,"end":4250.285,"text":"對那當然目前來說對於新版的財劃法所造成的相關的爭議包括中央跟地方這個財權分配但市權沒有做調整以及他會影響到中央的施政以及水平分配各地方政府之間沒有達到區域均衡發展的一個目的這個部分那行政已經決定要提出釋憲那目前來說我們財政部已經在進行相關的有關釋憲的前面的一個準備作業"},{"start":4253.647,"end":4270.037,"text":"本院的兩黨聯盟是現在實質多數了然後他現在如果更進一步威嚇說你如果不屈從他就用刪你的預算 凍你的預算 找你其他的麻煩這個你要怎麼辦"},{"start":4271.616,"end":4298.588,"text":"我想這個部分 山預算、洞預算最後受傷害的是人民因為政府存在要施政是為人民服務不管是稅務、官務、國務以及我們各項的業務都是為了民眾服務那山跟洞最後受傷的是民眾邏輯是這樣沒有錯 問題是他不顧這一些他就是要給你難看 要讓你施政困難所以就是用這樣的方式在找麻煩他現在不就事論事今天如果說在水平分配上面的指標繼續去進行"},{"start":4300.009,"end":4319.545,"text":"你有這個業務上的需要,那你這個經費夠嗎?因為你還要再跟地方政府去開會啊確實是,當然我們需要經費才能夠去持續的推動那到底還要多,你自己估計還要多久的時間才可以把這個各項指標收容到你認為可以制定成公視的這個狀況"},{"start":4322.168,"end":4348.931,"text":"就財政部來說當然在水平分配的指標部分我們去做詳細的規劃跟精進但是整體財化法來說我知道隨時分配事權分配那一部分你剛剛有講先不論那個光是橫向的這個水平的各個縣市政府之間的這個分配的指標還要你估計還要多久的時間才可以訂出一個比較比較有大家可能可以接受的標準"},{"start":4349.951,"end":4376.138,"text":"我們覺得還是要持續的 至於時間的部分沒有辦法具體的做一個時間表我跟你說那個真的很困難啦確實是很困難馬政府八年 蔡政府八年 一樣都打不到這個因為只要談到分配每個人都希望自己的地方多分一些啦所以這個我是覺得已經把它完全做成政治的攻防要注意這一點"},{"start":4377.737,"end":4403.776,"text":"你們要避免這個被操弄成政治的工法再來還有一點就是剛剛也有委員提到啦你今年的稅收狀況現在把你的時增數超過預算數如果超過3000億他還要立法要怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣把你們行政院的預算權全部都要瓜分掉所以我就說再來我要求你預算編列你願略高你願達不到目標"},{"start":4407.915,"end":4420.402,"text":"不要被他們這樣拿來政治操弄說三千億還稅於民還稅於民的定義是要還給繳稅的人啊怎麼被拿來這樣子分配呢這肉統政治嘛"},{"start":4421.853,"end":4447.619,"text":"所以我是說其實我們中華民國是租稅法定主義這很清楚大家都知道財政部所收的稅每一毛錢每一塊錢都必須是法律有明定可以收的你才可以收嘛是的所以這沒有什麼超收的問題基本上就是法律規定該收的稅我收這個哪裡有超過"},{"start":4449,"end":4462.999,"text":"我沒有一秒錢是不應該收的啊那所謂的超過的部分是超過預算數那預算是一個估計數我舉一個例子我小弟本人今年估計我今年預計我要賺兩百萬"},{"start":4466.27,"end":4493.764,"text":"來養家活口結果到年底我一結算 哇 真不好意思喔今年業績比較好 或是我結到外快比較多上了比較多的電視 或是比較多的訪談 比較多的演講我變成收入210萬你可以說 那10萬塊是多拿的 那個都送給國家邏輯上這個就是不通嘛因為預算就是一個估計數所以我在這個地方講 他們老是要拿這個東西來做文章來做政治的官方 那你可不可以估計數估高一點"},{"start":4495.337,"end":4499.38,"text":"那就避免掉這種無謂的政治工房在那邊無理取鬧啊是我想財政部在估這個稅客收入的時候每年都會根據相關的一些參數來估一定要何時來估稅客收入定的高然後收不到那個標準你們的這個財政那個國稅局的人會被懲處有這個規定嗎"},{"start":4516.893,"end":4541.295,"text":"我想不會這樣子但是對整個財政資源的運用來說還是說你們的考積會把它打得比較差台北國稅局局長你的預算數你應該要收5000億結果你只有收到4800億答不到目標所以你的考積要打差有這個規定嗎當然不可以因為稅是按照法律規定來收的既然如此那何不我們把它高估"},{"start":4542.571,"end":4547.215,"text":"那我們至少要估得高一點的話達不到 只收到98% 99%沒關係啊超過預算數現在變成有罪啊"},{"start":4551.431,"end":4577.185,"text":"不能拿來操弄啦是 確實不應該就是因為事實上我們的時增數超過預算數並不表示財政有餘裕還有要看整體的一個稅出以及我們還要做債務還本財政有沒有餘裕是看他當時訂了什麼課題啦他今天要跟你講說國債很多的時候就說你財政很糟糕啦今天要什麼要做其他議題的時候就跟你講說要多很多啦要分回去啦"},{"start":4577.885,"end":4604.29,"text":"所以這個是先有結論再找理由的啦先設見再劃把所以我是在這邊再次的懇求你我們寧願略為高估一點達不到目標那大家都知道為了要避免這種政治操弄嘛達不到目標也沒有人要去追究也沒有人去怪罪你會怪罪宋署長嗎你會怪罪五區國座局局長嗎應該不會吧大家都是名利人啊因為我們都是依照法律收稅的啊"},{"start":4606.125,"end":4612.076,"text":"所以再來一個議題說現在要給你訂一個法律如果預算這個時增數超過預算數3000億以上那錢要怎麼花怎麼花他都幫你想好了"},{"start":4617.205,"end":4642.913,"text":"是不好的對整個國家財政不是一個好事根本是完全沒有邏輯而且很奇怪就是利用秩序的落差利用一般人沒有那麼關心我們財稅的問題然後就說有一條錢喔好大一條我們大家來花吧大家拿刀來砍吧看誰能夠分到比較多嘛就是這樣子一個邏輯然後就說你看我幫你們多掙取了這麼多所以你們來感謝我啊我這名義代表當然很棒啊"},{"start":4644.605,"end":4652.227,"text":"看起來邏輯就是這樣啊 這是很離譜的希望你們能堅持原則 加油好不好是 好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝秉瑞接著請賴思寶召委質詢謝謝主席以及各位行進我們有請財政部的莊部長請莊部長"},{"start":4678.649,"end":4705.01,"text":"委員早 不能早我怎麼感覺好一段時間沒有看到你啊是 謝謝委員因為都出國去啊 去我菲律賓完畢就去米蘭啊正好這個有國際的會議 那個時間是排定的為國家做事啊 這個做的有意義是OK的啦然後我們來看你去米蘭開了亞營的年會"},{"start":4709.042,"end":4710.083,"text":"名稱叫做什麼台北卡瑪恰納請賴清德總統不太對勒台北卡瑪恰納我們還是創始國勒然後呢 奇怪他的年費只要100萬美金我們奇怪 怎麼還特別去只要200萬美金"},{"start":4737.017,"end":4750.666,"text":"規定只要100萬美金他這樣子歧視我們 矮禍我們請問你有沒有抗議啊當然我們一定抗議請問你開會的時候旁邊有一個牌子Under Protest這個部分我們都有發表聲明裡面你沒有用牌子要掛那裡啊抗議啊"},{"start":4759.191,"end":4779.14,"text":"大會裡面做聲明的時候明確的表達我想這個更有更有讓大家所有參與的會員都能夠聽得到我們的不滿同時會後也有一份的會員國我問你啊他這樣子歧視我們愛化我們為什麼要交兩百萬啦是怎樣啦我想對於亞營的部分實際上請問兩百萬交了沒有名稱沒有能夠改兩百萬交了沒有有問題兩百萬交了沒有兩百萬交了沒有兩百萬目前來說"},{"start":4787.984,"end":4811.134,"text":"第一個兩百萬被刪了一百萬嘛然後又被部分凍結所以目前並沒有交那這個部分事實上是我們是參與有一些交一百萬就可以了啦那對我們怎麼交新託基金的部分新託基金這個部分我們是對亞營部分我們也重於實質的參與跟相關的會員國互相的交流我們時間有限了請你請你簡短簡短喔現在你偷偷要交多少錢啊"},{"start":4812.815,"end":4831.589,"text":"統計?沒有啊,這個部分就是這一年而已啊對,交一百還是兩百啦你被砍了已經只剩一百啦只剩一百喔,好啦一百可以啦,對,一百交得很好啦來,四月底你也跑去菲律賓重建他的租稅協定避免雙重課稅,這個是對吧"},{"start":4834.519,"end":4860.365,"text":"我想這個部分我們持續對各國的簽署相關的避免雙重課所以我們都持續在努力這對各個國家都一直都在努力我講這個對不對我先問你我講這個對不對這個部分當然我們確實你去過了這不是什麼機密的努力但是後續還是要有相關的你去過了回來生效程序還要能夠完成生效程序還要完成去過了回來就要讓大家知道這是好事啊你怎麼會怕怕什麼"},{"start":4863.305,"end":4881.511,"text":"不是 我沒回答這是好事你怎麼回來回來不敲鑼打鼓一下跟委員報告簽署之後還有後面的生效程序我們希望這個案子能夠成因此跟非方有相關的一些默契生效之前我們彼此低調處理什麼時候生效"},{"start":4889.939,"end":4912.751,"text":"這個部分我想在他們的國會會做安排今年上半年可以生效吧這個部分跟委員報告涉及其他國家的國會我們在這裡說但是新南向有18個國家目前我們就有1800個國家其他10個什麼時候可以把它簽好新南向新南向講這麼重要"},{"start":4914.292,"end":4924.079,"text":"對於其他國家簽署租稅協定我們都持續努力但是雖然是八個國家但是跟我們有貿易的一個金額是事實上這樣的比例是相當高的多高"},{"start":4926.758,"end":4944.723,"text":"百分之九十投資率所以其他不簽沒關係啦也不能這樣講 不能這樣講我們還會繼續努力多簽 多簽啦 這個很重要的來 請主席長一起來謝謝委員支持 不過我們旅費被砍了百分之六十國泰旅費主席長你先不要走 兩位長關係啊來"},{"start":4954.304,"end":4972.888,"text":"持續 最近大家關心一個題目阿拉斯卡 因為最近這兩天美國的財政部長被申退說台灣有非常好的提案我們都在想有夠讚 這是什麼大家就很想知道這是啥我就把它拆了 就是這個就是阿拉斯卡"},{"start":4979.707,"end":4990.174,"text":"我們要跟他買啊 現在開始要買啊昨天這個經濟部次長已經證實簽了MOU我們每一年要多買600萬噸的天然氣從阿拉斯加但是他那個天然氣是從北極那邊下來的所以從北極下來到阿拉斯加的那個港口那邊"},{"start":5007.86,"end":5013.353,"text":"總共是1200多公里這個管線要440億美金"},{"start":5015.993,"end":5021.637,"text":"川普總統要韓國 日本 台灣三個國家買單日本 韓國到目前為止還沒答應喔他沒有說不答應啦 但是都還在考慮喔我們已經簽了MOU了我們就說 YES I DO沒有問題大丈夫所以美國當然高興啊這個不是公司咧"},{"start":5041.328,"end":5063.915,"text":"你說我投資美國的公司我賺錢我可以拿這個盈餘回來 拿股利回來這不是欸 是美國的基礎建設我們就白白的替他蓋 花多少錢如果我們算三分之一 那就是150億美金我就請教主席長"},{"start":5065.083,"end":5070.787,"text":"你敢有錢你敢有這個150億美金可以來替他們蓋這條拉這條管線主席長有沒有這個錢"},{"start":5075.951,"end":5099.631,"text":"四千五百億新台幣左右像這種液化天然氣的東西一般是由那個營業單位來吸收啦就是說看他的需求多少所以有中油吸收喔中油就只剩下這樣還不吸收所以我們還是應該要衡量一下看是哪一個單位的需求我再跟兩位長官強調喔他不是公司 他今天如果是公司"},{"start":5100.852,"end":5120.781,"text":"我們就投資你說未來他如果有賺錢我分一點回來這個可以考慮這個不是喔 這擺一擺 替他蓋就送給他然後從北極圈下來到阿拉斯卡這裡港口然後港口再運到台灣我們另外再買 600萬公噸那一部分"},{"start":5122.542,"end":5149.325,"text":"買就買這個稍微的平衡台美的貿易順差逆差這個沒有人去分對可是這一段老實講這一段我們現在沒有錢啊老百姓會怎麼想啊你說這樣都不給我一人一萬塊你們計較得要命啊美國爸爸就要了四千五百億你就給他啦就變這個樣子不管誰出啊 中有出也是國家的錢啊"},{"start":5151.291,"end":5160.78,"text":"對不對 中流也是國家的錢啊所以你以為營業單位 所以這個主計程你們看財政部 你知道這個東西嗎財政部長知道嗎詳細狀況我沒有去接收到你不進入狀況就對了"},{"start":5169.474,"end":5196.79,"text":"這個只有兩個嘛 第一個稅金勝利或者是舉債嘛舉債替美國蓋他的基礎建設這個不是潘娜 什麼才是潘娜只是因為他是美國爸爸所以就無條件的一定要替他蓋這不是樣子所以你們現在來講的話 斤斤計較那個部長你可以先回去了我最後跟主席長有點對話了"},{"start":5200.745,"end":5217.552,"text":"我可以跟你講的就是你斤斤計價一直講一百個理由一千個理由不給我們這個發現金你可以看喔GDP第一季吼有夠讚啦成長5.37第二季5%"},{"start":5219.723,"end":5240.299,"text":"這個都是因為大家怕關稅的問題所以提早出貨第三季說不知道平均薪資4.7萬你們最近公布的對不對4.7萬多啦最近公布的從中位數多少3萬8千多啦3萬8千9啦各位"},{"start":5241.791,"end":5270.151,"text":"這個才是實際的啦平均薪資就變成說我們小百姓可能沒有收入低收入戶他跟首戶台灣最有錢的人加起來平均4.7萬哇 大家結果告訴我三分之二的勞工領不到平均薪資啊三分之二領不到平均薪資同樣的我們有一個國戶普查國家的財富啊平均數每一戶"},{"start":5272.196,"end":5286.806,"text":"上個月底喔4月29日上個月底平均1889萬一戶各位好好看喔你家裡有沒有1889萬其實中位數多少中位數才800多萬而已啦所以數字我現在要強調的結論就是我們的平均薪資4.7萬你們剛公佈的可是中位數3.8"},{"start":5301.755,"end":5329.805,"text":"我們的國庫大家一戶平均將近一千九百萬可是中位數只有八百萬左右我希望這個主席總署啊你們不能答應以後這兩個數字同時公佈我們是每四年啦 每四年公佈一次不是 你要同時公佈你要講國庫 我講那個公司啦"},{"start":5330.365,"end":5335.808,"text":"好公知喔對啦 同時公佈兩個數字是好不好 否則你 喔 經濟有夠賺啊 喔 都還要拔七七喔 經濟有夠賺 土有夠賺4.7萬 結果3.8 中位數才有意義"},{"start":5345.732,"end":5365.579,"text":"中位數才是 老百姓的感情 否則會想說 啊 老鼠喔 厚厚啊 現在我娘這麼小啦 4.7 我娘3.9而已啊3.9還比中位數高 公共委員 我們現在中位數也是每個月都公佈都公佈 阿不好 那個國庫評 兩個議事一樣 差這麼多 你看啊 每戶1900萬 結果中位數800萬 差這麼多"},{"start":5373.562,"end":5374.262,"text":"主席有請好久不見的莊部長莊部長"},{"start":5404.552,"end":5404.798,"text":"委員好"},{"start":5405.728,"end":5433.113,"text":"部長這兩天大家都在討論說我們稅收的狀況看起來萎縮最多的大概正交15%另外我們這個房地合一稅說的大概是13點多然後13.8的部分是土增房地合一稅少了12.4大概是這樣子但是基本上都有機會達標對不對"},{"start":5435.621,"end":5450.494,"text":"跟委員報告,這個裡面打總數的部分我們認為說應該也許可以達標要看五月六月的大宗的稅款以及下半年九月份的事業站腳稅款所以還會不會像超增四千多億你個人的看法"},{"start":5454.798,"end":5460.646,"text":"跟委員報告今年度114年度我們編列的這個預算數已經超過去年的113年的10增數所以這個部分我們會認為收取的數字如果有超過預算數也不會超過很多"},{"start":5470.179,"end":5476.464,"text":"不會超過很多就不會再有多位發現金的問題還是要再持續觀察不然的話今年又有炒發現金的問題我們的時增超過3700多億又出現這個問題那如果時增超過700多億的話那將來如果萬一不小心又短增的話是不是又要舉債又破壞財政紀律這個部長有機會的場合要講清楚"},{"start":5493.417,"end":5505.619,"text":"昨天我還聽到一些立法委員說什麼日本因應這個關稅的衝擊要發現金日本人要發現金被罵的臭頭啊已經退縮了 擱置了 識破已經不敢再講了不要講一些片面的不正確的訊息來誤導民眾可是部長我讓你看一下雖然這個房地合一土增稅這個在下滑可是部長你有沒有看到"},{"start":5520.902,"end":5539.584,"text":"有關於這個營業稅的部分特別關稅的部分在成長關稅的部分本席調出來中國跟香港的部分一到四月成長了13%那大家都很擔心這關稅為什麼會成長那麼快可能是因為傾銷跟起散地特別呢"},{"start":5540.339,"end":5558.919,"text":"有關於這個塑膠的部分增加了25.5基礎金屬的部分27.6這台灣目前內需市場持續在萎縮的可是我們進口從中國進來所以持續成長另外就是消費的山西產品等等但它稅率相對比較低我看一個總體的數字"},{"start":5561.542,"end":5590.431,"text":"部長十年以來兩岸的貿易依存度是創下新低可是十年以來中國進口到台灣的金額卻是成長加倍你有沒有覺得這有問題啊會不會兩岸的貿易關係以前我們依賴對岸比較多現在對岸在依賴我們比較多就金額上絕對金額是變兩倍變兩倍我覺得這兩倍的可能性是什麼依賴是起產地"},{"start":5591.67,"end":5614.337,"text":"二來呢 是傾銷還有第三個原因待會兒本席要跟你講你這個數字的看法怎麼樣對 我們現在出口到中國大陸 包含港澳的其實比例已經一直降到四月底為止降了28%越來越低 已經低於30%曾經也高到40%以上所以我們已經往下降了 已經往下降了"},{"start":5614.957,"end":5629.281,"text":"那至於進口的總金額的部分提高當然剛剛委員也有提到因為其實我們要特別注意中國大陸的一些低價請銷因此針對於他們低價請銷所以我們這個部分才會讓整個中國進口的金額節節上升所以我們在與有關課徵反請銷稅的部分也持續都有在做不是有稅就好啦"},{"start":5637.663,"end":5662.623,"text":"也可能會造成其他的傷害啊期產地的部分就是違規轉運的部分我們會加強的也許你們把關不足才會讓稅金增加啊不是稅金增加就有好事啊所以說呢除了啊這個期產地那個傾銷的問題之外還有一種呢就用合法延誤非法本席舉一個例子齁中國的這個鋁模板違法低價進口"},{"start":5664.673,"end":5692.014,"text":"本來這個依照中國的鋁模板要輸入的話一來要來根據這個鋁製架構的部分來進行申報二來還有一些特別限制也就是說你要輸入台灣的部分台灣是沒有生產的你是有特殊少量的需求你才可以專案輸入這是第一個結果中國的鋁模板卻繞道違法繞道說把自己當成鋁模具"},{"start":5693.855,"end":5711.298,"text":"從原來7%變成4%不說它根本不是模具嘛為的是什麼就是為的是可以進口嘛進口的部分呢就打擊到台灣合法輸入的這個廠商進口的廠商而且打擊到台灣的生產廠商"},{"start":5713.6,"end":5732.844,"text":"有需要那麼多稅收嗎 部長有需要用合法 延伏合法的增加稅收嗎委員 我們絕對不會因為稅收而去改變這個有關這個可以進口的頁數量那這個部分要跟經濟部的國際貿易署要再討論你們要跟經濟部工業局跟國貿局來了解清楚徹底查辦本席就當場給你檢舉嘛"},{"start":5742.112,"end":5753.998,"text":"這個你會搞不清楚嗎鋁模板是替代以前那些很容易造成建築廢棄物的木模板是相對先進的結果他把它當成模具差那麼多"},{"start":5756.975,"end":5783.389,"text":"應該沒有那麼需要缺現金吧所以說我們現在中國進口到台灣的節節上增的稅金不是好事啊它會打擊到其他的產業啊會因小失大部長那你這個要怎麼處理至少有五家在違法進口至少有五家我們在會後會立即會和經濟部來做聯繫了解兩個禮拜之內給本席一個答覆可以嗎可以"},{"start":5784.57,"end":5790.482,"text":"馬上處理啊 是馬上處理接下來的部分呢這個有關於這個房屋稅 這個2.0"},{"start":5794.157,"end":5814.925,"text":"開辦之後出現兩個問題一個是從自住改成非自住它系統計稅單就可以解決第二個就是有居住適時的認定一戶就可以了但是本席介紹不少先生尤其是偏鄉地區就是說他根本沒有辦法簽戶口他原來那老房子根本不可能住了所以他再買了另一個房子"},{"start":5815.885,"end":5840.97,"text":"看起來好像有多屋 其實沒有 是假多屋增置住一戶而已本來我們一戶是期待說那1.2%降為1結果沒有所以1.2%就變3.6%從4000就變1萬2這種假多屋增置住的情況底下他一旦遷離了這一個他原來戶籍所在地他說你入籍就好啦他的農保 他的漁保就斷啊"},{"start":5843.53,"end":5861.321,"text":"所以說他不願意遷離戶籍嘛可是說要承受這種高額的稅金部長 這是一個問題我私下有跟宋署長講過我只希望引以部長的高位要求宋署長跟五個國稅局五區的國稅局要加強輔導避免類似情勢的產生啊可不可以"},{"start":5862.526,"end":5885.537,"text":"因為房屋稅是地方稅 這個部分我們會請署裡面但是地方是我們立法我們會跟地方政府來加強的宣導你去溝通宣導一下嘛避免什麼樣的方式會造成民間的困擾會加強宣導電話接不完接下來部長 我就教於您了這兩天討論也非常的多"},{"start":5887.455,"end":5908.662,"text":"有關於這個公務航空庫的總量管制的部分我不過是問一個換屋族對換屋族有所打擊而已那當然引來各方四面八方的一個消息說要求這個十大建商的這個貸款餘額把它壓低而且要財政部按月管考我問一下財政部有沒有怎麼做"},{"start":5910.03,"end":5927.049,"text":"我想因應這個房地產之前幾年一個非常熱絡然後造成房價的一個上漲我想民眾都非常覺得非常覺得希望政府要有所作為那我們會認為對於建商的部分不要把我們的央行也希望不要把金融資源"},{"start":5927.97,"end":5928.751,"text":"希望把十大建商的貸款餘額下降"},{"start":5946.071,"end":5970.867,"text":"這不是央行要求是你自我要求的啦對 當然在大目標之下我們必須要有所措施跟作為這個是好的資本集中過度於建商那槓桿操作空間很大會影響系統化風險那是危險的這是第一第二呢你壓低之後呢可是你設定一個自然人的新增貸款額度不能高過於還款額度自然人的還款額度會很少啦老師說啦"},{"start":5972.088,"end":5980.994,"text":"你知道這是央行規定的 你不要往後看 我直接跟你講好了你要如何把這個量能來做一個移轉啊你把法人壓低的這個籌碼來釋放給患無主現在患無主現在屬於高的這個最低級來超過三千一萬戶三萬一萬戶的這個交務潮"},{"start":5995.363,"end":6015.577,"text":"這個交屋潮這麼多也就代表換屋潮很多所以換屋潮的這個部分一般而言大家銀行都不願意承借公股銀行甚至傳出 我現在點名傳出土銀不願意承作這個換屋貸款你去調解一下 有人來跟我檢舉所以因為太麻煩了 簽卸結束幹嘛幹嘛他就不願意了"},{"start":6016.637,"end":6042.551,"text":"拜託欸 你公股銀行你要去煽進你的ESG欸這個換屋你居然還管要拒絕這是第一個所以什麼時候去處理這些問題你很重要你把那個集中數降低我肯定你十大這個建商槓桿操作幅度不一定夠高這是第一個要處理的事情但是呢有一些換屋族不應該手續過度的繁瑣而影響他個人的權益他可能會斷頭欸"},{"start":6044.272,"end":6067.515,"text":"可不可以影響跟那個原來那個建商之間的糾紛部長你知道我的說法我的意思嗎我知道你這個部分能不能做一份這個檢討報告給本席可以那我想自然人的部分本來就央行就有信用管制對於手購族我們是不限制但是對於換物族他必須要有相關的一個作業因為換物族我知道你怎麼知道"},{"start":6067.995,"end":6085.687,"text":"第二戶第三戶還是要換戶所以他必須要有個切解這個部分必須依照央行的規範來做你只要符合央行的規範我就可以犯但是如果不能說符合規範而不願意待放這個部分我們再來進一步的了解我覺得本席希望你在這法人跟自然人的部分的區別跟能量的配置有一份報告給本席好的謝謝好謝謝謝謝各位的諮詢下面請賴會員召會諮詢請"},{"start":6094.352,"end":6094.672,"text":"我想今年的總預算凍結數高達1381億"},{"start":6116.118,"end":6131.405,"text":"那叫前三年的平均凍結數是140億那大幅增加了就是1241億比前年就是比大概就是平均的前三年增加了9倍"},{"start":6132.385,"end":6146.174,"text":"這麼大量的一個預算的一個凍結那其他的部會我不要講我就光講說我們立法院的司機還有工友今年到現在為止他們都還沒有領到加班會"},{"start":6147.435,"end":6152.884,"text":"那我們也希望就是說今天的這個整個那個凍結這個預算的一個解除我們可以在一個比較平和的狀況之下大家就是共同的這個來那個處理一些案子"},{"start":6162.598,"end":6177.613,"text":"那部長我想從2025年的首得稅的一個新制裡頭這個其實首得扣除額已經是大幅的一個提高甚至就是把黃屋的租金也改列為特別扣除額那它有18萬的一個額度"},{"start":6182.057,"end":6204.169,"text":"那這個其實都是一個得證那我們從免稅額跟扣除額隨著物價的調整這個是本席根源所做的一個建議有沒有機會就是說這一些守得稅法裡頭就是第五條的第一項還是第五至一條的第一項裡頭他寫得非常的清楚就是說我們"},{"start":6205.63,"end":6225.885,"text":"需要扣除這些薪資所得還是說身心障礙那個特別的一個扣除額有沒有機會我們把這個扣除額前面納入就是隨著物價調整的一個機制的一個可行性那用稅市的一個那個支出來做調整啊部長你怎麼看"},{"start":6228.574,"end":6242.559,"text":"這個部分對於法條裡面有隨著物價調整的部分我們都有做像譬如說像薪資所得特別扣除或身心障礙特別扣除都有做這樣的調整還有標扣免稅都有"},{"start":6243.639,"end":6257.847,"text":"是那如果有沒有辦法全面性呢全面性的部分我想這個部分包含像您提的有像目前沒有的就是房屋租金的特別扣除額沒關係這個部分我們再來"},{"start":6258.787,"end":6273.369,"text":"那個就是一個月內給我一個書面的回覆因為我想就是說如果我們把它全面納入就是隨物價調整的話這個應該是會加惠更多的我們的國人這個是一個好事情"},{"start":6275.551,"end":6291.022,"text":"我們提一個書面報告給委員謝謝委員部長我想我注意到就是說匈牙利總理在目前他推出推出了一個歐洲最大的一個減稅的一個計畫他非常的自豪就是說他在這一個"},{"start":6293.024,"end":6314.157,"text":"減稅的計畫裡頭有一項我覺得就是說因為我們國家少子化還有就是說我們雙薪家庭其實我們很多女性也必須要就是出去工作那有沒有機會就是說我們逐步對生育就是她生了兩個孩子還是三個孩子的那個媽媽"},{"start":6315.738,"end":6327.175,"text":"那他還是投入了一個職場的工作去實施終身免繳個人薪資所得你覺得這一個提案你認為你怎麼看呢"},{"start":6330.466,"end":6352.651,"text":"對於鼓勵少子化的對策我想有各個部會都有相關的一個作業那譬如說在我們的所得稅制裡面對幼兒學前特別扣除就六歲以下的孩子包含六歲的孩子那麼我們對他的扣除其實已經從每年12萬提高到15萬而且扣到小孩子第二個第三個更高我現在講到的是說"},{"start":6353.391,"end":6371.283,"text":"是從媽媽本身媽媽本身的一個薪資扣除了我們有沒有機會就是去調整那如果我用胸牙利就是跟我們台灣我們來比一比的話胸牙利基本上它有40%的人是信奉天子不教"},{"start":6371.983,"end":6400.043,"text":"所以就是說你看他960萬人那他的女性人口數是498萬人那他生了三胎以上的是25萬人那相對的就是我們台灣2340萬人我們的女性那個人口數是1187萬人那我們生三胎每年才1.2當然就是說這個基本上他的換算換算的一個就是"},{"start":6401.343,"end":6422.734,"text":"這個那個換算的方式是不一樣啦不過我就是簡單的讓你來做這樣的一個比較他們總理非常的自豪他說如果你是我的女性的一個就是國民的話你生的越多的時候我給你扣更多的一個稅你覺得有沒有道理"},{"start":6424.218,"end":6439.031,"text":"我想委員對於就是說希望鼓勵多生小孩那給予在稅制上的一些優惠那各國也都有不同的制度那在我們這裡有幼兒學前特別扣除是有的那第二其他的譬如說衛福部等等都有相關的一些政策"},{"start":6439.511,"end":6443.592,"text":"至於委員所建議的就是說終身薪資所得稅的可以把它減的話那比如說像我的孩子都已經自己都出去獨立成長自己成家的話這是不是適宜我覺得我這個部分我們是不是提一個書面報告給委員也謝謝委員提供這麼詳細的資料"},{"start":6459.517,"end":6481.067,"text":"如果就是你每一年就是政府幫你的那個所得稅額扣掉的話再減的話那就是政府給你的紅包啊給我終身的紅包我謝謝委員對於這個資料的提供在我們那個世代生小孩我們覺得是天命在現代的這一個世代的女性她認為就是生小孩是她一個負擔"},{"start":6482.388,"end":6500.71,"text":"所以就是說我們有沒有機會試著就是說有一些創新不同的一個概念我們操作這個目標然後我也希望就是說影響的稅收是多少你大概評估一下謝謝委員的提議我們來提供書面的資料給委員大家可能會就是"},{"start":6501.551,"end":6523.079,"text":"更願意我們所有女性更願意付出更多那這個部長再接著就是五大行庫新成做的黃帶的金額的一個降低那為什麼會降低是不是可以你在這個就是媒體上我們看到了就是說會降低的元素就是在這個"},{"start":6524.239,"end":6549.405,"text":"武大航庫的第一季第一季加起來大概是2382億可是今年的第一季才2075億它的確下滑了13%可是這個新清安的熱度在比一般的黃帶就是說它所承銷的一個金額承作的一個金額大幅的衰退那個部長你認為這是什麼原因"},{"start":6551.346,"end":6576.939,"text":"第一個房市的熱度已經有降溫了第二個新青安大概購買的都是首購族是一個剛性的需求所以慢慢也往下走因為新青安大概是要到明年的七月底就結束了我想這個部分另外就是說我想大家第一季的部分也有部分是受到過年時間的一個影響我想這個都有一些因素在裡面"},{"start":6577.699,"end":6593.617,"text":"好那另外對於所謂的人頭戶或什麼出租的我們都在強力的一個查緝那這個部分也遏阻了一些投機的一個作為好就是說你認為說首購的已經出場了那投機的其實我們也加以"},{"start":6594.077,"end":6611.496,"text":"加嚴加緊的再控管了所以就是說這一個新清安的還貸它確實就是退燒你認為是很合理的可是說這個到2026年7月才落日欸那現在退的這麼快這個政策到底有沒有需要檢討咧"},{"start":6613.378,"end":6629.987,"text":"我想新青安的目的是協助沒有自住房屋的朋友們來購買首購的房屋那政府降低他們在前期的一個資金的一個負荷所做的那都是一些剛性需求能夠買到他自己的第一間房子我想是很好的"},{"start":6630.547,"end":6633.55,"text":"後續這個政策要不要怎麼樣做我們再來做觀察我們再觀察部長跟你分享一個情況就是說我們聽說就是在我們的分行對新青安的換款"},{"start":6646.184,"end":6661.198,"text":"一季它只能分配到4千萬的一個額度那4千萬的額度的話就等於是說一個分行它只可以做4間新清安這個是不是事實咧"},{"start":6663.395,"end":6686.943,"text":"我想這個部分是不是委員可以提供具體的是有哪一個分行或哪家銀行的分配額度讓我們能夠了解所以基本上就是說你還沒有聽到這個消息因為可能銀行內部的作業內部的他們自己額度配合那我需要請委員可以提供我們具體的資料所以這不是財政部的一個不是財政部下令的"},{"start":6687.663,"end":6688.787,"text":"只是分行在自行調整就是說他的整個黃袋的一個那個作業"},{"start":6694.893,"end":6722.737,"text":"第一個就是說對於不動產的放款本來我們不希望金融資源過度的集中所以它有一些比例那這個貸放比例的話央行有非常關注從去年就開始關注我們也請各銀行要注意不能把資源過度集中在這裡所以他們一定會額度的控管至於分到各個分行以及新清安的購屋者他沒有辦法能夠貸款的話這個部分我們再進一步的了解"},{"start":6723.417,"end":6748.697,"text":"那也在這裡請那個拜託部長就是說目前的五大行庫可乘坐那個購置住宅貸款的一個額度還有辦理住宅建築跟企業建築換款的總額暫換款時候所收存的一個總額的金額跟金融債券花售的一個花售的一個比例在兩星期內提供給北溪一個書面的回顧好的謝謝是謝謝委員是謝謝"},{"start":6751.939,"end":6766.163,"text":"好謝謝張偉德質詢下面請閻寬文委員質詢包委員閻寬文委員質詢之後我們休息10分鐘好謝謝主席主席有請我們財政部莊部長委員好"},{"start":6776.244,"end":6805.59,"text":"部長早等一下我們賴朝偉新的指示休息20分鐘好謝謝謝謝主席部長早部長早部長今天是5月15號了那之前有提到說延長報稅時間到6月30那我想目前的報稅的狀況如何可不可以請部長稍微說明一下"},{"start":6807.434,"end":6814.939,"text":"謝謝委員那目前來說中所報稅的情況中所稅的部分到5月11號為止已經完成申報是252萬戶大概是完成了40%那當然跟去年同期來比較的話事實上是減少了那我想因為延長一個月的時間所以民眾的申報時間就比較寬緩一點也許會稍微晚一些來申報那目前是完成申報的是40%那收稅的情況呢"},{"start":6839.595,"end":6848.919,"text":"這個稅款的進來可能不會是馬上就會進來有些是用刷信用卡或轉帳這個部分我們會等到這個五月底六月底到六月底以後我們會再做一個統計跟計算"},{"start":6850.492,"end":6869.947,"text":"今年申報的調整算是蠻多的有免稅的調高、扣除的調高還有特別扣除的調整那財政部能夠把這些都調制好避免說民眾減少後續一些納稅人的一些重複申報造成不必要的困擾這個部分再請部長多注意"},{"start":6871.418,"end":6898.176,"text":"是的 謝謝委員的提醒那我們再回到今天解凍報告的部分其實你們很早就寫好了這些解凍報告我們還是很慶幸就今天進來了終於在今天送進來了我們就儘速審查 儘速解凍那在這之前請部長簡短說明一下5月4號遠赴義大利米蘭參與這個亞洲開發銀行就是ADB的年會那大概會議的內容還有有達成什麼樣的共識嗎"},{"start":6900.319,"end":6917.005,"text":"跟委員報告ADB的理事年會是每年召開一次那在這個理事年會之前我們都會有相關的一些雙邊的會談跟譬如說我去拜會總裁那總裁是今年新任的"},{"start":6917.405,"end":6933.83,"text":"那對於總裁新任我們這個部分也提出第一個我們是創始會原國我們對於亞營的不管是義務跟責任我們都盡了相關的責任跟義務那因此呢我們希望他們給予我們平等的一個對待這個我們提出的需求第二個我們也希望"},{"start":6934.27,"end":6957.945,"text":"亚营到台湾来做这个人才说明会我们希望我们有更多的青年朋友能去投入亚营的工作那投入亚营工作以后等于是替我们的国力往外延伸所以这个部分我们希望他们能够积极的禁用我们台湾籍的青年朋友们进入亚营去做工作那也希望我们有更多的机会在亚营里面跟其他国家一起做相关的交流跟合作"},{"start":6958.744,"end":6974.953,"text":"對 部長你剛剛提到了我們盡了我們的責任跟義務那當然我看到說我們財政部114年編列的認捐ADB的這個信託基金是200萬美金那比"},{"start":6976.493,"end":6991.365,"text":"以往捐贈了100萬美金多出一倍那這些捐贈我想請教部長說在解凍報告書裡面你們提到說這個歷年捐助的情形跟理由並無捐助增幅過高的情況"},{"start":6992.626,"end":7006.88,"text":"從一百萬變兩百萬,增額是百分之百那不是台幣,是美金,這樣不算增幅過高嗎?還是說財政部的增幅過高的定義是什麼?跟委員報告,我們這個捐助的是國內資源調配信託基金這個信託基金的組成,第一個是日本"},{"start":7016.85,"end":7039.636,"text":"日本他累計已經捐助了1267萬的美金那我們是在111年的時候捐助100萬那這個部分呢我們希望在這個慶多基金裡面可以增加一些捐助然後跟我們的友邦國家可以做更多的交流譬如說我們跟帛琉這個部分我們協助他們去做相關的稅政上的一些資源包含我們的"},{"start":7040.456,"end":7063.262,"text":"怎麼樣借營業稅怎麼樣課徵等等以及的資訊系統所以今年呢我們就本來原先要捐助兩百萬但是已經被刪了一百萬只剩一百萬而且又被凍結了八百萬所以這個部分其實相較於日本所捐助的款項來說他們已經捐到一千兩百六十七萬那我們之前只捐了一百萬那這次我們希望他們也希望我們能夠"},{"start":7064.322,"end":7082.529,"text":"能夠多捐一點然後讓這個亞營的一些弱小以及開發中的國家能夠有更好的一些資源那我們覺得我們有許多的人才也可以藉著捐助這樣的一個信託基金去協助周邊的一些開發中的國家幫助他們做一些建設"},{"start":7083.729,"end":7101.629,"text":"我認為說台灣的實力是世界都看見的那其實透過這樣子捐錢的方式去做這樣子的有點像討好討好那在你們報告書裡面說提到了很多說加入這個DRMTF的優點穩固邦誼啊培養國際稅務人才等等"},{"start":7102.31,"end":7115.183,"text":"那是不是就是說這100萬美元然後變成200萬提高成200萬它就會增加更多的優點那過去捐100萬的時候沒有這些優點嗎還是說有什麼對等的利益實質效益是什麼"},{"start":7117.695,"end":7123.62,"text":"一百萬基本上是門檻是最低門檻所以我們這一次希望能夠兩百萬的話第一個就是如同委員剛剛說台灣的實力是世界所看見的我們成為國際社會的一員而當我們有能力的時候我們可以多參與以及多做協助那麼讓我們可以參與更多的一些在亞營裡面我們本來沒有辦法參加的一些組織我們可以藉著亞營這樣的一個平台去"},{"start":7145.696,"end":7162.678,"text":"先來說你在報告書裡面有寫到說ATB用不當的方式稱呼我們的部分那你就有參與這個會議然後跟ATB嚴正的抗議那希望恢復我們正式會籍的名稱那這個做到了嗎他們承諾了嗎"},{"start":7163.819,"end":7174.568,"text":"第一個我們藉用各種機會比如說跟總裁會面的時候我們也會提出這樣的一個要求那同時在理事年會的時候我們也會嚴正的做聲明那我想在場的會員國會聽到之外其實他這樣的一個理事年會的發言都會上他們的網站是世界看到的我覺得我們持續的發聲可以累積我們的一個能量是不是每年的理事會都有這樣子提出我們每年理事會都會提出"},{"start":7192.624,"end":7217.421,"text":"但是我們也沒有看到友邦有替我們提案友邦有沒有提到提案這涉及到國際政治上的一些問題但是我們希望我們一定要能夠出席然後要發聲讓世界聽到抗議是必然必要的但是說我們不能夠當人家的ATM尤其說先矮化自己我不是說怎麼樣我意思說我們不可以不然就會跟台積電赴美投資一樣"},{"start":7219.023,"end":7232.985,"text":"自己先把大禮送給人家送到家門口然後呢得不到我們希望得到的一個對待或者是一個條件所以如果說這個ATB不願意為我證明那我們怎麼辦呢"},{"start":7234.517,"end":7250.774,"text":"我們能做什麼呢?因為你已經承諾了嘛我第一個證明這件事情我們持續的努力但是我們透過實際的參與可以提高我們參與這個ADB的一個能量然後也可以派助人員在ADB裡面進行相關的工作"},{"start":7252.063,"end":7266.845,"text":"那部長我可不可以要求說如果沒有得到一個正式的回應或者是我們提出的要求得到一些回報一些相對等的回報那你可不可以承諾說不再額外增加捐助金額"},{"start":7268.352,"end":7276.977,"text":"我想這個我覺得不需要做這樣的因為我覺得實質的參與我們能夠正式參與國際組織的機會不多我們應該要積極的參與好嗎好謝謝再請教部長這個促參的部分這個凍結的原因是到113年8月底這個促參案件提前終止契約比例是12.01%比例很高"},{"start":7293.707,"end":7321.384,"text":"那看了你們這個報告主要是因為民間機構違反企業約定這部分就佔了67%那因為這些BOT、ROT、OT等都是公司協力的部分那難以預料說這些私部門就是民間企業在合作過程當中會不會產生各式各樣的狀況但是我們還是要說就是涉及畜牲基本上都是大工程都是大工程那一旦延誤會造成整個延宕那個是這個"},{"start":7324.486,"end":7341.545,"text":"會造成整體公共建設的計畫會造成一個很大的影響所以說我想部長針對這個事情是不是可以提供更多具體的防範措施或者是一個改進方案讓這些大型的出差案的監管機制能夠更健全"},{"start":7343.062,"end":7355.47,"text":"謝謝委員的提示我想促參市公司協力然後加速公共建設提升公共服務這是它的目標但是違約的情況呢就是終止契約這樣的一個情況呢我們其實都有把每個案去分析它的原因然後避免重複發生這樣的一個情形這個部分我們促參市一直持續的在做"},{"start":7367.037,"end":7391.01,"text":"同時對我們對參與促參的不管是政府機構或民間機構我們都有相關每年都有相關的培訓然後我們也把優質的案例提供給各個機關讓他們來做複製跟模仿那減少這種中途終止租約而影響到公共建設推動我想委員最主要目的就是不要因為終止契約而影響到公共建設的推動如何從錯誤裡面或者說"},{"start":7394.732,"end":7402.161,"text":"來防治這未來的情況 謝謝委員提示我們這個持續都努力在做的好的 謝謝部長 加油好 謝謝 謝謝寬恆委員那主席在這裡先步我們先暫時休息30分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":9085.506,"end":9092.488,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 接下來有請李委員燕秀質詢請李委員 昆城準備是 我是不是可以邀請部長 莊部長 謝謝好 請莊部長"},{"start":9114.181,"end":9119.404,"text":"委員好 部長好 部長午安最近是報稅的季節了我想報稅上面都會遇到相關的問題陸陸續續開始浮現很多民眾都開始有很多的疑問那我們辦公室服務處其實長期有協助報稅的服務站所以有一些問題我想透過今天的答詢我想把它進一步釐清"},{"start":9138.475,"end":9159.634,"text":"尤其是房屋稅2.0從去年7月份開始實施之後從今年5月份陸陸續續很多民眾都開始申報但是都因為涉及的要件而引起一些問題因為我們現在都以涉及為唯一的標準首先是有一些社區大樓他們的住戶停車位我們現在停車位很多都是跟"},{"start":9160.615,"end":9176.027,"text":"房子是兩張不同的產權以前早期的都是停車位跟房子就是一張產權所有權都是只領到一張那我們現在很多房子我不知道為什麼我還沒有釐清為什麼但是很多停車位它就是一張獨立的產權然後房子建物它是一張產權就會收到兩張產權的所有權狀"},{"start":9184.554,"end":9194.843,"text":"那結果被視為非自用住宅的課稅導致一般住戶要繳兩張稅單一張是以自住的稅率1.2%來計算另一張是以2%計算車位的房屋稅這個是我在做服務的時候我親自聽到會計師站在我旁邊民眾跟他陳情那這種做法是不是有失公平"},{"start":9210.456,"end":9227.012,"text":"那一般停車位跟獨立產權停車位產生了不平等的問題那這個後續到底怎麼去做處理是不是可以回應我是謝謝委員反映這樣的一個事情那我們也知道這樣的因為在新北市因為它對於有獨立產權的部分因為"},{"start":9227.632,"end":9247.981,"text":"因為獨立產權車位不會去設戶籍在裡面一定設在我的主建物裡面嘛那所以造成剛剛委員說變成非自住房屋那我想這個部分新北市政府他會收集相關意見那我們財政部基本上認為就是說你主建物是自住的話你的車位其實是附屬跟這個主建物在一起不管他有沒有單獨的件號或單獨的權狀"},{"start":9250.402,"end":9259.371,"text":"都應該是這個跟隨的這個組建物如果它是自住那麼這個車位就應該當然也算自住不應該有兩套不同的課稅標準不因為它是否有單獨建號或非沒有單獨建號而有不同因為應該跟著組建物"},{"start":9265.556,"end":9279.085,"text":"是 謝謝部長您的答覆您現在的答覆就非常的明確那這個事情不只有新北市我覺得因為這全國是一致的標準那所以是不是部長我們會不會統一的韓市或裁量來去做指引給全國我們地方的稅務機關並且就是說我覺得應該要趕快因為現在已經是報稅季節了"},{"start":9288.23,"end":9299.603,"text":"我知道那這樣部分我們財政部就主動再來做一個函式讓地方政府可以有所遵循那也跟委員報告因為這個房屋稅差別稅率2.0是今年5月第一次開徵過往是各縣市做歸戶這是全國總歸戶"},{"start":9304.168,"end":9322.405,"text":"發生了一些地方政府有一些不同的認定那我們會持續的在收集資訊然後能夠含附的比如有寬廣期限寬緩比如到6月2號都已經先趕快發函式那在整個報完以後我們會整體做個檢討然後把它把就是說讓大家認定可以一致而並"},{"start":9322.705,"end":9327.408,"text":"因為我想透過今天的質詢我想媒體就會知道你會盡速的含釋下去但是我還是有一個問題啊我現在比如說我已經收到稅單了你已經要叫我繳兩個不同的稅"},{"start":9339.714,"end":9345.777,"text":"我到底是繳還是不繳我不繳我怕到時候會有滯納金的問題所以到時候譬如說我是乖乖的不管你是怎麼算我%數不管是不是一致我是不是先繳了你再退我稅還是怎麼樣怎麼去做處理我們要不要說清楚因為稅單已經收到了嘛是 你已經收到稅單對不對那像台北市政府一樣他就已經重新開稅單重新開的話他的期限就重新計算重新計算往後延後"},{"start":9369.568,"end":9372.289,"text":"延後 第一張你就不要去交 你就交第二張好 部長這是台北市 因為我現在質詢不會只問台北市是不是全國都會重新開稅單因為有些人收到我不知道會不會有什麼其他的疑義的問題現在到底怎麼處理要有一致性因為我怕到時候有些人不講台北市他會等"},{"start":9392.034,"end":9404.162,"text":"那我如果住在桃園市我如果住在苗栗縣會不會有不同到底會不會重新開我不知道因為你現在得到資訊台北市會重新開委員我們在韓市的時候同時要說清楚就是說你開的跟我們像韓市內容不一致的部分要重新開然後讓他重新計算繳納的期限好嗎這樣子我覺得您的提議我們會把它納入然後在韓市裡面說清楚"},{"start":9418.991,"end":9432.381,"text":"大家知道說我必須等第二張稅單因為有些人你剛剛說台北市會有第二張稅單那我就清楚了那桃園市會不會有我們就不知道所以他就會等我們就一致的把它說清楚好的 謝謝部長謝謝委員的提醒"},{"start":9434.382,"end":9450.179,"text":"那部長我第二個問題就是說不只是房屋稅所造成的影響而且不只有停車位的問題就是說現在包括很多身心障礙者車輛我們今年使用牌照減稅的部分有放寬"},{"start":9451.44,"end":9472.198,"text":"那現在很多的我們現在放寬就是所有二等親如果家裡有身心障礙者的話都可以去申請牌照稅的減免但是很多人都為了自住的認定的標準他就把戶籍簽出去了譬如說我接到一個陳情的住戶譬如說他們其實兄弟哥哥是有身心障礙"},{"start":9474.38,"end":9491.201,"text":"兩戶其實是連在一起但是本來是他們兩個住在一起所以他有那個車子的牌照所以可以見面但是為了自住他其實是本來其實他就是住在他自己的房子裡面他戶籍遷出去所以我不講我要建議的是有時候我們用"},{"start":9491.801,"end":9517.011,"text":"唯一的戶籍來去認定就是他是不是居住在一起的標準我覺得這樣的判斷就是說有一點太單一我舉例來說好了譬如說在國外很多就是住的很近但是譬如說他車子是改裝過了他是負責載他父親去醫院進進出出他就住在隔壁從車子就可以看得出來所以"},{"start":9519.972,"end":9535.068,"text":"就是說我覺得還有什麼其他認定的標準而不是以單一戶級來去做認定我剛剛覺得那個例子就是我的陳情人他們其實是住在同一個樓層隔壁兩戶但是他確實他弟弟是要長期負擔"},{"start":9536.569,"end":9552.455,"text":"當他哥哥的司機在他醫院進出車子也有改裝那但是他確實也他確實是為了這張檢測牌照稅把他的跟他哥哥戶籍放在一起問題是他變得失去他自己原來是自己自住的房子他變成非自住的課稅的標準"},{"start":9554.176,"end":9568.507,"text":"所以我才要提說我們是不是唯一很多的減免包括車輛牌照稅的減免身心障礙牌照稅的減免我們既然有放寬我們是不是不要以唯一非涉及不可"},{"start":9569.727,"end":9597.803,"text":"我這個陳情人他長期就是住在隔壁而已那他為了這個牌照稅的減免然後他失去他自己課稅自住的標準好像也不合理所以有沒有什麼其他的認定的方式譬如說在美國他們就是以就是說我車子改裝了他確實就是一看就是知道說他就是在身心障礙者的那種車子就是說還有沒有什麼其他認定的標準可以放寬可以來去做這方面的思考"},{"start":9598.183,"end":9606.27,"text":"我們既然已經放寬身心障礙者牌照稅減免的認定那可不可以不要用涉及為唯一的標準是我今天的問題"},{"start":9608.124,"end":9631.257,"text":"在認定上我們要有一個客觀的標準所以我們會採用戶籍而且是本人配偶或同一個戶籍二親等以內當然說我支持二親等以內至於委員剛剛說比如說他弟弟改裝車子為了接送哥哥但是弟弟因為要跟哥哥去設在同一個戶籍以至於喪失他的住宅的自用住宅的一個"},{"start":9633.018,"end":9661.137,"text":"稅率的一個優惠的部分那其實自用住宅優惠稅除了本人 房屋所有權人本人之外他的配偶或他的實際經費在裡面設計也是可以適用的我知道 部長我再轉回來說或者是說車子本來那輛車子可以用那個身心障礙者的牌照稅的減免就沒有了嘛就失去了他的原意嘛所以我才提出說類似像這樣的不同的案例個案很多所以我要提的是既然我們有放寬身心牌照稅的減免"},{"start":9662.538,"end":9675.393,"text":"那我們現在還是以涉及為二清等我支持用二清等但是用涉及為唯一還有一個標準在所以我覺得還有沒有什麼其他的客觀的標準可以來去做評量"},{"start":9677.634,"end":9705.739,"text":"還是局長你可以回覆我對這個第一個是牌照稅法裡面的規定那當然你說法律也不是不能修但是我覺得這個客觀上還是要有個客觀的一個標準那委員您所提供的一個您的具體案例是怎麼樣我們是不是您可以提出來我們看看有沒有什麼方式可以來部長我其實不需要處理個案比如說我的女兒比如說我是身心障我女兒就住在我隔壁為了就近照顧我"},{"start":9706.707,"end":9729.865,"text":"那他的車子希望載的那輛車子希望有機會來去做牌照稅的解免那輛車子也是長期譬如說在接送我做這個看醫生啊等等所以我的意思是說這個部分有沒有機會我們再去多一些認定的標準而不是用設計為唯一的標準"},{"start":9732.549,"end":9742.933,"text":"是想要解決民眾他的期待但是這政府機關做事我們當然我想如果有相關的一些事實我們是不是可以來協助他我覺得可以多一些從寬的認定我同意周延的認定我沒有要處理"},{"start":9750.415,"end":9766.581,"text":"但是我覺得法律一條線我覺得應該要有不同的方式去處理有時候我們也會從個案裡面去看到一些可能的狀況來演繹所以在個案的部分我覺得可以去收集起來我們來做一個看看到底情況是怎麼樣"},{"start":9767.681,"end":9795.219,"text":"來去做一些調整我們再看怎麼樣的來做研議我覺得因為這個情況我們知道但是其實房屋自住的一些認定我現在第二段是講牌照稅減免的認定因為牌照稅會影響到他自住房屋的稅率所以他兩個之間變成他在抉擇上的一些問題對我知道我們還是從事實上面去做認定跟處理看有什麼樣的工具跟手段先看一下他的情況謝謝部長"},{"start":9798.049,"end":9801.352,"text":"好 謝謝李委員 謝謝莊部長接下來有請李坤城委員質詢謝謝主席我們先請這個主計長好 有請主計長"},{"start":9825.469,"end":9832.678,"text":"委員好主席總書在4月30號有公布今年的第一季的經濟成長率這個說這個有5.37%成長率加5.37%是這一年來的新高然後呢"},{"start":9841.068,"end":9855.134,"text":"你們有講說如果第二季到第十季的經濟成長率維持二月的預測數第一季已經出來了嘛那如果二到四次屬於這個維持你們二月的一個預測數全年的經濟成長率會上修到3.6%較前次的預測高出0.46個百分點"},{"start":9860.376,"end":9884.331,"text":"那這個剛好跟我們之前你們的預估說這個經濟成長率比如說因為對等關稅的關係或是說預算的一些影響有可能經濟成長率沒有辦法到二保二都有困難那這個兩個月的這個過程你們的預估會上修我想請教一下這個主席處的這個預估的這個情況這個基礎在哪裡"},{"start":9888.051,"end":9907.759,"text":"現在主要是因為剛開始這一季都是有一些急單的作用所以它的一個經濟成長就整個一個往上浮動那一般原則上你說因為關稅的關係所以大家在第一季就拉貨急單拉貨的關係所以它就往上那有可能這個效果會在第二季也一樣會出現啊"},{"start":9908.399,"end":9926.988,"text":"有可能但是我們是這樣子我們是每一季就會估算一次每一季就一年估算四個季那我們大概在5月28會再做估算但是你如果用實算的算出來3.6是因為目前等於說把目前的關稅一些因素沒有考量進去"},{"start":9927.768,"end":9948.387,"text":"那所以我們在5月28的時候我們會有一些專家學者會進來那就會有相關的一個數據會提供然後會再來重新預估一個新的數據那因為我們本來當初預估的是今年是3.27嘛那但是因為去年它又本來4點多又往上到4.59"},{"start":9949.648,"end":9974.911,"text":"所以4.59的結果他往上撐我們這個就必須下修所以又下修到3.14所以我們整個一個數據啊都必須根據相關的一個狀況來做修正但是修正都必須經過專家學者討論跟下預估跟下預測點而不是說按現在的狀況直接去預估那主席長有沒有比較有信心保三呢"},{"start":9975.291,"end":9989.178,"text":"上次講說連寶二都有問題現在看到這個前兩季的情況有信心今年年度是個寶三嗎因為我們看一下最近大家在關稅上一個大家去協調的一個結果其實狀況是都是還不錯的啦如果是這樣的一個情況下我們想說它並不會影響的很大"},{"start":9998.403,"end":10024.383,"text":"所以這個部分還是必須要看影響的因素那重點就是有一些除了我們這個之外還有一些息產地的問題那息產地的問題也會影響到我們所以除了不是只有關稅的問題所以這個部分有些問題是要考慮的因素蠻多那我們會請專家學者來共同來討論然後做出一些預估出來我是說那個如果主席長按照您的這個預估的話保佔有沒有機會"},{"start":10026.693,"end":10048.38,"text":"保三如果以目前關稅的狀況保三是有點困難但是我們保三還是有點困難還是覺得有困難因為當初最初的預估是嚇到一點多這樣子的一個狀況是比較但是還不至於但是是不是一定能保三這我就不太敢有把握"},{"start":10048.66,"end":10070.873,"text":"因為我們現在是10%的關稅然後當然在7月中都會知道說到底是會課幾%嘛那有人說是10%到30%之間啦因為中國目前是30%那所以說那你們有預估說那如果是在30%之內的話還是會有影響對當然會有影響啦那對於這個GDP的影響會有多大你們有去估算嗎10% 20% 30%"},{"start":10073.696,"end":10092.543,"text":"這個目前還沒有估算我們大概在5月28這一次會做一個大整理然後之後會有一些比較有相關數據的一個再做估算好 那我再請教一下目前這行政院有提出這一個特別條例4100億的那這其中我們昨天也討論過這1000億是要撥補這個台電的那看起來這個在野黨這1000億是不想讓他過關那如果這1000億沒有辦法過關的話那你們有去算過對於這個物價波動對CPI的影響"},{"start":10102.587,"end":10103.919,"text":"然後對於這一個GDP的影響勒"},{"start":10104.693,"end":10133.94,"text":"因為這個部分坦白說台電也有算一版那我們也有算一版本我就聽你們的版本台電的那個版本我是覺得他是說純粹如果說他就是讓那個家用的去上漲的話他大概全年會增加就是每戶全年會增加7000戶就是每一戶的電費會增加625我們自己估算是比較低"},{"start":10135.32,"end":10152.707,"text":"就是說一個月是增加625那全年大概是7500那你們自己估的那是一戶喔那是電費啦那我們自己估的是比這個還低啦差不多將近3500啦3500是指一戶的電費嗎那對於這個CPI的影響呢對於CPI的影響的話大概是0.31左右0.31那我們現在都是維持在2左右嘛"},{"start":10168.374,"end":10189.668,"text":"大概影響0.31個百分點所以應該就會突破2了接下來如果說因為地價漲造成通膨也漲物價也漲我們昨天都有算過啦到底對於人民的荷包影響有多大你們算過這樣一年大概影響有多大"},{"start":10190.288,"end":10216.15,"text":"所以我們比較不希望的是這種狀況所以我們是希望的就是說台電這個部還是應該適度的撥補而且這個是以前的帳這是以前因為他為了要抑止民生電價不漲價而所欠下來的將近有兩千多億一直沒有填補這個部分那事實上我是覺得以我們來講應該是要優先來填補這個部分以上"},{"start":10217.051,"end":10219.812,"text":"謝謝主席長接下來我們請財政部莊部長部長請教一下我們國安基金從4月8號宣布進場護盤這是第九次國安基金進場護盤現在一個月的時間我看了金管會的數字"},{"start":10244.263,"end":10267.74,"text":"4月2號是川普就宣布這個關稅 那一下子調得很高所以如果從4月2號到5月12號的話呢我們這個台股的指數是跌了0.09% 其實不大但是如果4月2號算到5月13號的話 反而還漲了0.15%啦所以我是想請教一下說 我們現在這個國安基金的護盤的成效是不是還不錯"},{"start":10270.044,"end":10295.338,"text":"從這幾天的股市看起來還不錯那當然股市的一個漲幅的部分也跟美國的在關稅部分的一些策略的一些改變都有關聯性的對那所以說那目前來看的話這個國安基金進場一個月的時間了嘛對不對差不多是一個月時間因為我們看你們4月8號有宣布嘛那現在已經超過一個月的時間了嘛那接下來呢"},{"start":10297.655,"end":10321.03,"text":"當然國安基金會持續的一個關注市場的一個動向那我們會由我們的執行秘書來做操盤那他會持續的觀察然後做採取適當的一個作為所以到目前為止的話就是說這個一個月成績看起來也還不錯然後接下來就會看說大概應該也是要等到這一個這個90天到了之後"},{"start":10322.511,"end":10335.923,"text":"看川普大概宣布到底關稅是怎麼樣那也取決於說我們現在我們行政院跟美國的談判所以說可以預測國安基金至少會等到七月中之後再看情況"},{"start":10338.734,"end":10356.708,"text":"對,7月之前應該是不會退場啦但至於操作的方式執行秘書會做觀察以及採取相關措施那操作方式就是市長他們自己,他是執行秘書嘛但是你們都是裡面的委員啦所以如何操作你們大概也會有一個方向啦"},{"start":10357.389,"end":10373.889,"text":"那這個我看這個歷年來都是台積電是買最多的只要是只要是有遇到這一個這一個比較大的這一個股價的這個波動的話因為它是一個大型的權值股嘛所以我看應該是這一次台積電應該也是進場買得不少"},{"start":10377.697,"end":10398.053,"text":"當然國安基金進場主要是有點火的作用然後來維護一些投資人的信心那至於怎麼樣的投資我們執行秘書會做妥適的處理我們都不會去介入這樣那至少在七月的時候國安基金都還是會stand by就對了因為不確定性的因素還是蠻多的"},{"start":10399.774,"end":10424.739,"text":"因為美國財政部長他有提到我們台灣跟美國談判目前提出非常好的一個建議我想請教一下部長美國財政部長所講的台灣的非常好的建議據你了解大概是哪一些對他所說的非常好的提議但我不知道他的具體他指的是什麼但是5月1號其實我們由副院長 曾副院長領導"},{"start":10426.921,"end":10450.837,"text":"帶帥團包含我們的談判總代表楊珍妮政委都有去了美國我想這個部分他們在初步第一步的協商的過程當中應該算是彼此有做一個很好的一個交流所以那個方向當然具體的東西不談那如果方向大概部長你知道說大概是哪些方向讓美國覺得說台灣的提議還不錯比如說我們關稅是從大概是從比如說總統你講我們可以從零開始來談嘛"},{"start":10455.98,"end":10476.252,"text":"那我是說到底這個方向是怎麼樣可以讓美國覺得說台灣的政府提出來的提議還不錯我覺得有一個方向出來也讓我們的企業界會有一個信心我想大的方向不管是總統也好院長也好副院長都提到就是說第一個會為國家爭取一個最好的待遇第二個就是要維持產業的競爭力"},{"start":10477.578,"end":10485.208,"text":"這是基本的一個前提同時我們會對於違規轉運的部分會加強力道來做查緝我想這是一個很正向的一個說明"},{"start":10487.391,"end":10509.277,"text":"除了這個之外,這個我大概都知道啦有沒有比較具體的一些東西可以讓台灣的企業界對於我們現在在談判會更有信心我想相關的一些細節在談判過程當中應該雙方都有默契應該都不會對外去做一個宣達這樣子那就是說在七月之前我們還會繼續再跟美國再談下去吧"},{"start":10512.939,"end":10526.27,"text":"我相信應該會 現在5月1號只是第一輪嘛好 OK 謝謝部長 謝謝主席好 謝謝 我們結束李昆城委員的質詢接下來我請林思敏委員好 謝謝主席主席優先請我們財政部莊部長好 請莊部長"},{"start":10545.26,"end":10556.645,"text":"市委部長,根據TVBS最新的民調,受到川普政府的關稅政策影響,34%的民眾滿意賴政府拼經濟的表現,高達57%表示不滿意。"},{"start":10565.549,"end":10573.323,"text":"另外有將近六成就是百分之五十九的民眾對於賴政府處理關稅的問題減少對台灣的經濟的影響沒有信心"},{"start":10579.448,"end":10598.54,"text":"部長 民眾對於政府處理川普關稅的問題及拼經濟的表現如此不具信心您認為政府應該如何調整我們的經貿談判策略來維護出口產業以及協助我們半導體的廠商面對海外關稅與地緣政治的風險謝謝委員 我想各種民調都可以作為施政的一個參考"},{"start":10606.144,"end":10618.463,"text":"那我們也會積極的做一些精進那我想在這一次有關川普政府的關稅政策在4月1號宣布以後那行政院其實在之前就已經進行相關的模擬的一些方案"},{"start":10618.919,"end":10631.573,"text":"那在確認32%的以後我們就提出了支持方案的措施那這裡面的措施包含了各種金融的一個協助等等以及對產業的一個補助同時也進行了產業的一個傾聽之旅不管是總統院長也好當我有跟隨院長去的好幾場的"},{"start":10639.722,"end":10654.011,"text":"請聽企業的一個心聲尤其中小企業他們都有一些憂慮的部分那因此我們就調整我們原來所提的支持方案同時也提出了特別條例以及特別預算我想這個部分政府一直是和產業是站在一起的那當然"},{"start":10656.312,"end":10659.053,"text":"在對外對美方談判這個部分呢從4月9號就開始暫緩實施90天那當然這是一個大的一個變動維持現在是10%的一個關稅稅率那在對美談判的部分政府院長也率隊到了美方去了"},{"start":10672.399,"end":10693.097,"text":"那在第一輪的談判裡面我想都有互相的一個交流跟磋商後續會持續的一些進行那我想在進行磋商的時候一定會本責維護國家的一個利益以及維護產業的一個競爭力等等來做努力我相信這個是政府一直都在做的部長你做了很多的說明我想面對這次的一個談判"},{"start":10694.258,"end":10702.752,"text":"其實業界普遍認為說政府對美國太過軟弱且談判的策略不夠公開透明"},{"start":10703.996,"end":10727.582,"text":"建議政府你不應該太早先排太早先排了並應對外公開談判的進度與策略我想我們好多委員在這一次的這個質詢中我們也很多時候都告訴我們說這不方便告訴你這不方便告訴你那個不方便這個不方便到底我們的談判的策略談判的進度到哪裡"},{"start":10728.646,"end":10748.719,"text":"我們感覺就是黑箱啊所以民眾才會普遍對這一次的關稅對台灣造成經濟的影響普遍對賴政府的整個策略沒有信心嘛所以你應該更公開的跟大家講嘛到底你的談判策略是什麼"},{"start":10749.933,"end":10766.227,"text":"我想這一點請部長要檢討改進另外我們看到針對半導體的海外擴廠與關稅風險我們很多人也建議政府應該要成立護國產業的因應辦公室"},{"start":10769.11,"end":10792.972,"text":"我們跨部會由我們的國發會經濟部來成立財政部共同來成立這樣子一個護國產業的因應辦公室來協助我們的廠商因應海外關稅與地緣政治的風險來推動供應鏈的雙軸部署提升台灣研發能量與流財的政策所以對這些建議"},{"start":10794.301,"end":10804.973,"text":"政府是否會虛心的來採納讓民眾對這一次我們看到民調是如此的不具信心來從實民眾對政府面對這次關稅處理政策的信心"},{"start":10813.362,"end":10833.528,"text":"妳要不要虛心接納不然還在那邊自己完全就是悶著頭在做我想請聽民意一直是政府都在做的部分那對於民眾的建議我們都也會在做納入參考那我想剛剛委員也提到許多在產業上的一些策略或佈局等等"},{"start":10834.068,"end":10839.173,"text":"那這個經濟部一定也會在這方面去做一些考量我想財政部的部分提到你們剛剛也提到有關產業的升級跟轉型那在產創條例裡面這一次"},{"start":10849.602,"end":10876.702,"text":"行政院也提出了修法版本也感謝立法院三讀通過在那裡面呢對於有關相關的一些政府的投資譬如說擴展這個項目增加極限加長聚合野生高因為民眾的信心是如此的低啦所以各部會其實應該去虛心的去這個檢討為什麼這個民意的支持度會是那麼低為什麼那麼沒有信心要如何做檢討改進調整"},{"start":10878.664,"end":10886.776,"text":"這個是你們要做的 還是在講以前的東西啊不是啊 這是這次新的作為你要要要充實民眾的信心啊請布朗你先請回請主席長"},{"start":10899.793,"end":10914.445,"text":"主席總署前天表示針對行政院因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全任性特別條例所編列的4100億的特別預算會能及時推動執行部分財源需先行舉借債務"},{"start":10916.767,"end":10932.654,"text":"因為目前政府的債務距離我們的舉債上限40.6%的規定上有13.7個百分點大概有3兆元的舉債空間而前天也公布114年3月底我們的工業及服務業受僱人數為848萬9千人"},{"start":10936.436,"end":10953.596,"text":"經常性的薪資平均數為四萬七千五百二十五元但其中月薪不及平均月薪者佔受僱總數的百分之六十九點七七也就是說近七成領不到平均的月薪這個也是再創新高"},{"start":10954.477,"end":10980.359,"text":"那本席查詢我們國庫署的國債中的資料最新的平均每人負擔債務截至114年4月30日是26.5萬跟歷年最高的27.4萬已相差不遠也是近一年的新高啦所以請問主席長你是否聽得出來剛剛本席所提到這三項資訊有什麼矛盾之處"},{"start":10986.212,"end":11006.323,"text":"請指教 就是當有七成的民眾領不到我們這個平均月薪的時候背負巨大的生活經濟壓力我們在野黨提出的普發全民一萬元的現金協助國人生活時 政府一來是全力的反對"},{"start":11007.344,"end":11027.82,"text":"二來卻對外表示4100億的特別預算的部分財源因為還有舉債空間所以可先行編列舉借的債務這個等於說繼續提高人民債務的負擔所以主席長這是不是很荒謬"},{"start":11030.148,"end":11051.315,"text":"這是不是很荒謬啊這個部分它是113年度它有剩餘1641億但是它必須要在7月的時候才做那個審定的確定那所以這個時間慢一點點所以如果說我在這之前要先那個就必須用先舉債但是我實際上是不用舉債是這樣子"},{"start":11052.935,"end":11062.022,"text":"實際上不用舉債但是你告訴我們這個舉債空間還有那麼高空間那麼大還可以借三兆所以可能你未來要舉債"},{"start":11063.285,"end":11091.128,"text":"不是 我不需要你現在肯定告訴我們不會舉債是 實際上不會舉債是 實際上這4100億都不用舉債因為我目前來講我就有4000多億的一個累積剩餘只是說我1641億那是113年度它的一個決算的數字那目前決算數字我們已經送審計部那審計部要7月才審計沒有關係 你說反正就不會舉債嘛是"},{"start":11092.529,"end":11117.857,"text":"但是我想這一次其實我是覺得我比較驚訝的民眾也很驚訝的是說我們這一次的4100億啊其中要補助給台電1000億這一千億我們看到過去我們這個本來是要追加預算113年度的追加預算114年度用公務預算但是這一次卻是明度成倉喔不是暗度成倉喔要在這一次的特別條例4100億裡面要補助台電1000億"},{"start":11122.274,"end":11138.254,"text":"這樣一個預算的編列準則到底是什麼我看不懂耶這次不是要4100億不是是要為了針對美國的關稅的政策而去提出這樣一個特別預算的編列嗎這跟補助台電有什麼關聯"},{"start":11139.635,"end":11151.463,"text":"這是很有關聯因為跟委員報告這一次關稅的結果然後造成人心的浮動所以就物價的部分它會有所波動那我們如果說能夠讓台電"},{"start":11155.186,"end":11180.666,"text":"來補充台 補助台電的話那能夠補來調升電價這個部分那我們就整個穩定一個 補價就很好補助台電這件事情因為我昨天在經濟委員會有問台電了如果說這一千億補助到位台電可不可以承諾未來不漲電價可不可以承諾未來不需要再靠政府補助你自己賺就可以了你可以承諾嗎"},{"start":11182.317,"end":11206.174,"text":"他不敢承諾 不敢承諾他不敢承諾的情況之下我們看過去我們有三次補助給台電補助了三千億但是電價仍然調漲啊那是增值啦 對不對所以你還在調漲電價嘛所以這是為什麼會造成這樣一個結果就是你的能源政策可能需要調整了否則買一度綠電台電就虧損"},{"start":11208.115,"end":11232.76,"text":"這不是無底洞嗎 你怎麼可能台電以後不靠補助呢每次都要靠政府補助補助之後又要調電價這樣對不對所以我還是認為台電這次的預算編列在這4100億我們真的討論的空間很大看怎麼樣說服我們所有的立法委員以上 謝謝"},{"start":11235.012,"end":11260.667,"text":"我們謝謝林思敏委員下一位我們請羅明財委員主席各位出列習慣的主席柯某請審計部陳審計長他已經先回去了那有誰在要問審計部嗎審計部都走掉"},{"start":11263.341,"end":11272.763,"text":"那最重要的那他如果不在的話我就請莊部長我們請財政部莊部長莊部長5月是報稅的季節那現在直至目前有去報的比例大概多少5月11號大概來申報的綜合所得稅大概有達到4成大概有200多萬戶"},{"start":11293.594,"end":11315.229,"text":"那今年如果有些情況來不及的,就是可以晚報嗎?生爆期限已經從五月底延長到六月底了,就延長一個月為什麼要延長一個月?最主要當時因為川普的關稅政策出來以後"},{"start":11315.768,"end":11336,"text":"那我們認為這個時候因為民眾也好產業也好可能會受到一些衝擊譬如說以產業來說他也要在五月申報銀索稅那可能他一些訂單的調整等等讓他們有一個比較寬廣的期限來做申報避免在一個月裡面要有期限所以財政部是站在民眾的立場來替民眾來設想"},{"start":11339.497,"end":11341.321,"text":"財政部這樣做的話你們有沒有做過民意的支持度"},{"start":11351.92,"end":11380.419,"text":"如果民意支持度這個部分呢我們覺得這個我們為民眾做事那民眾是應該的然後讓民眾比較寬寬的那民眾要在五月來申報也可以這樣聽起來的話就是說民眾的好感度還有民意的支持就覺得財政部很親民啊因為沒辦法嘛外在環境的改變那財政部這樣做其實是對的"},{"start":11382.489,"end":11411.396,"text":"都委的支持是好那接下來我們請主計長財政部從善如流齁那一樣的是行政院下面的單位我們就來請教一下主計長是 主計長去年的稅收超徵多少喔 稅收這個部分是財政部負責的好 那你不要動稅收去年超徵"},{"start":11413.178,"end":11440.128,"text":"五千兩百八十億民意調查裡面超過百分之六十八四捨五入大概七成有七成的民眾支持普發現金主計長你會不會從善如流像財政部這樣的親民像財政部"},{"start":11441.97,"end":11470.171,"text":"剛剛莊部長所說的因為變民啊民眾有感啊然後你們趕快懸崖勒馬好好來思考一下全民普發現金不多一萬塊主席黨為什麼你知道一人領一萬怎麼樣快樂常相伴告一拜一人領一萬"},{"start":11472.486,"end":11501.398,"text":"接下來呢大人小孩通通有希望啊這個已經是流傳千古在立法院必考題嘛已經講了N次了可是我每次看到主席長好像什麼事情到底發生什麼事情了我跟你講發生什麼事情你知道那個事情就是發生在我後面那幾個字叫做什麼主席長你有沒有看到"},{"start":11506.122,"end":11527.282,"text":"我每次來立法院開會我都是看這四個字啊往你那邊看叫做國家至上我們心裡愛國家心中國家至上第二個我們在修法在審法案的時候最重要的事情就是啊"},{"start":11528.871,"end":11555.845,"text":"民眾第一啊所以我也因為這樣的啟發所以我一直提案就是說領一萬嘛這個數字也不是我從空而來就是因為數字超徵五千兩百八十億然後我每次開會都提醒我啊民眾第一啊什麼第一就一人領一萬啊這個最第一的事情要做啊真的啦主席講"},{"start":11558.888,"end":11586.425,"text":"有沒有辦法趕快來協調一下因為我跟你講你不要說我我就算你給我一萬塊我是捐出來給公益單位我不是站在我個人的立場想事情啊我是站在很多的嗷嗷待哺的嬰兒他要買奶粉啊奶粉最近不是漲價嗎補貼一下吧小朋友買文具用品也需要錢啊"},{"start":11588.217,"end":11613.215,"text":"還有很多啊 對不對你說一直要照顧小企業 中小企業 很多的大企業那你也照顧一下保金保貸吧總共38萬個拉保險的 拉得很辛苦啊還有欸 還有邊緣人啊還有很多的社團 社福單位 自己連募資都募不到啊拜託啊 就是一萬塊嘛"},{"start":11615.907,"end":11632.035,"text":"請問全世界普發現金的國家有哪幾個我沒有查沒有查哇主席都在笑了那你的幕僚單位是誰啊"},{"start":11634.073,"end":11662.609,"text":"報告委員 日本是聽說有要發但是最近聽說遭受到很大的一個反對所以後來也就不了了之你說那個還沒發的 有發的有哪幾個美國有沒有發過新加坡有沒有發過新加坡是有發過主席長你先休息一下請旁邊那個比較厲害的來上來請那個 那個是主計的"},{"start":11665.171,"end":11692.192,"text":"處長啦齁 處長啦 處長公務 公務處的話就是許永毅嘛來 那個許處長讓你發揮一下我知道你不會想說要把主計團幹掉但是你如果表現得好 大家會注意你來 請問一下 許處長全世界有發過普發現金的有哪幾個國家"},{"start":11694.433,"end":11718.243,"text":"剛剛我們局長有講過,新加坡有發過新加坡發過,發多少?這個我不清楚還有哪一個?香港也有退稅過香港退稅也是一樣的道理,就是錢給民眾還有哪裡?澳門澳門應該是在京東海巷那時候有沒有發過?有發過美國有沒有發過?美國加州"},{"start":11724.554,"end":11748.589,"text":"美國是加州有嘛 疫情的時候都有發嘛好 你不錯 至少有做功課好 謝謝主席長那請問主席長 剛剛回答那個是誰啊我們公務預算處處長公務預算處的徐永毅徐永毅 許處長你可不可以考慮今年再加薪的時候"},{"start":11749.673,"end":11774.773,"text":"或者是說考核的時候記得他有在做功課就是表現好的人我們要給他多多鼓勵也許因為他們收集的資料正確比較廣泛可以讓主計長在深思熟慮的時候增加一個更大的信心來支持普發現金一萬塊"},{"start":11776.055,"end":11795.037,"text":"因為之前組織長說你都不知道啊現在一些參考的數據也請你體恤民情真的民眾真的很需要這一萬塊因為有七成的民眾支持因為我們都是站在第一線"},{"start":11796.701,"end":11818.007,"text":"我今天早上六點多去跑攤的時候,我就遇到一個年輕的阿祖,我說你有幾個孫子啊?兩個,他說最近幾三三,金嬌,琪姐,雞娘也琪姐,本來阿祖要賣給孫子,有一些男三級,都沒有啦,"},{"start":11819.42,"end":11829.985,"text":"我說,小年來做,你家全校有多少人?他說,我們家有十幾萬我們家有十幾個人,不是十幾萬,十幾個人我問,現在政府有這個好康的事情,一個人捏一萬,你有開心嗎?我們家有十幾個捏十幾萬,好啊!政府有在做事情這句話就是高速主計長嘛"},{"start":11848.717,"end":11870.875,"text":"真的人民很需要也拜託竹記長從善如流真的你說台電缺一千億嘛是不是一千億我找給你啊好不好我找給你啊你把一千億該給民眾的兩千三百億編給民眾缺了一千億我幫你找這樣好不好"},{"start":11873.052,"end":11892.688,"text":"報告委員其實發放現金它是有它的時空背景還有它一個目的那政府它在安排政策它也有它很多的一個目的那如果說它要還錢於民它有很多種方法和政策的一個安排所以不見得就是說要發現金"},{"start":11893.87,"end":11903.349,"text":"那以現在來講這個時候發現金並不是最適當的一個時機我知道啦 竹雞蛋你可以講啦可是你講的一定對嗎"},{"start":11906.107,"end":11912.372,"text":"也不見得嘛對不對這個是我們經過一再的討論之後所有的立委沒討論過嗎所以以前普帕六千是錯的嗎不是吧就大家參詳立法院合一制嘛大家聽話嘛有道理你們就拿去用嘛你一直要把人民的錢扛人民支給然後去補台電的一千億"},{"start":11931.687,"end":11954.838,"text":"那我問你好了 你說一千億一千億那台電你只要光電的部分 光電好了去年光電台電花多少錢這個部分我可能還要再調查一下你叫他們自己檢討一下啦光電花了兩三兆 少花一成就有兩千多億啦"},{"start":11956.65,"end":11964.421,"text":"講難聽一點你們這個一直挖挖挖挖台電的坑那叫人民去補補補補補補該由人民出錢的洞這就那麼簡單的事情嘛"},{"start":11969.736,"end":11991.708,"text":"你要去弄光電那個什麼88槍的問題一大堆你們都沒解決那你們就繼續慢慢弄我只是站在人民第一線的立場最卑微的就是說你一人發一萬塊這樣讓大家有充滿一個小確幸就是這樣而已"},{"start":11993.141,"end":12019.046,"text":"你總不能每年稅收超徵然後你就東拿西用 西拿去用整個都給你花光光留一點給民眾吧你不要說因為民眾沒繳稅有啊 我們去7-11買的時候都營業稅啊每個人都有奉獻 怎麼會沒有通通都有啦 好不好全民共享嘛最後啊 民眾第一啊好不好 請多多參考一下 謝謝好 我們謝謝榮民財委員接下來我們請鍾江邊委員"},{"start":12034.409,"end":12053.806,"text":"主席 在場委員先進 列席的總局管事長 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請財政部莊部長 也請複稅署的宋署長還有 有沒有法治人員在法治處的姚處長好 那我們請莊部長 宋署長 姚處長委員好部長好 署長好 還有處長好部長"},{"start":12060.663,"end":12074.01,"text":"最近 大家最急的先拿來問啦就關於房屋稅 剛剛好幾位委員都問過了那我先請教一下 你看一看這上面的這幾個報章寫的亂象 剛剛有李燕雄委員問到啦獨立權重的車位被另外課稅事前你們有發現這個情況嗎"},{"start":12077.964,"end":12100.02,"text":"沒有想過我們知道這個情況但是我們沒有想到就是說新北市這個部分他做了這樣所以是地方政府他自己的認定對那我想我們這個他說將請財政部韓市這個部分我們財政部主動來做一個韓市那另外參與都更結果呢信託給銀行銀行名下信託房屋很龐大委託人雖然是自住但是呢稅率還是不太一樣你們有沒有發現這個情況"},{"start":12103.35,"end":12122.936,"text":"這信託還是自助的話還是自助啊對有沒有發現有這個情況好來慢慢來問題狀況很多因為新制上路總有陣痛期來人家說房屋稅2.0初包兩大放寬你們提到了因為5月開徵嘛結果你們提到說台北市因為資料轉換錯誤然後影響5萬戶那你們兩大放寬放寬了什麼"},{"start":12126.873,"end":12150.349,"text":"兩大方位第一個就是說因為就是台北第一個就是自住的部分要去涉及涉戶籍那過往是沒有這樣的要求所以有一些民眾他因為原來是自住就怎麼收到稅單所以這個部分讓我們把涉戶籍的時間往後可以讓他到6月2號還有一個出租的部分因為出租的部分我們的稅率是可以比較寫那讓他去申報出租的時間可以寬管自住的指定跟出租的申報好來問一個問題馬上考你們"},{"start":12158.034,"end":12176.122,"text":"可能宋署長在鄉下父母還有房子跟農地啦那我舉例啦 這個宋署長可能會了解三兄弟 爸爸媽媽住鄉下的農地上面蓋有農舍三兄弟長大之後呢 老大陪爸爸媽媽照顧農舍老舊 大哥花錢把它整個翻修"},{"start":12177.142,"end":12199.258,"text":"但是因為農地跟農舍必須同意所有權人所以農地是老爸的農舍大哥蓋好了花錢蓋好了也是登記老爸名下老爸走了三兄弟繼承土地共有持分那不用講房子也是共有持分每個兄弟各持分三分之一但是大哥住在這裡戶籍在這裡老二老三不在這裡今年房屋稅"},{"start":12202.65,"end":12214.154,"text":"稅務人員說因為你只自有三分之一所以你的房屋稅自住優惠只能用三分之一假設原來是一萬八你只能有六千塊降成五千塊 你覺得這樣合理嗎"},{"start":12216.581,"end":12245.896,"text":"怎麼解決 署長請署長來說明報告委員 因為他委員所去描述的這個案例基本上他是採分別共有的方式就持份共有那持份共有當然防守也是就他持份的部分的房屋稅的部分如果他是自住來享受那你問一下啦如果情況發生在你家裡另外兩兄弟的房屋他會幫你繳這兩個房屋稅的稅嗎大哥在住啊 大哥全都住那裡啊那房屋稅單收到 大哥就把它繳掉啦"},{"start":12246.977,"end":12274.873,"text":"那另外 老二老三也不會說大哥啊 那個三分車是我的嘛房屋是我要繳 會不會?不會嘛 這個是他們要協調的問題我覺得不能用這樣的說法這顯然違背了一般的社會民眾認知 而且而且我問說 那稅務機關怎麼跟你回答他說這樣子齁 如果你要符合自用住宅請你老二老三戶籍搬回來你們三個兄弟房屋共有三個人的持份都可以減免 是不是要這樣做?"},{"start":12276.158,"end":12302.014,"text":"是要這樣做嗎這就是你們的解方嘛 部長點頭嘛從你們人工跨離特赤 按照法條 死因的條文界定你要是就持有的部分來予以優惠嘛但是使用是多人共有一人使用但是他有沒有做其他使用 有沒有閒置不使用 來我們看一下防護二點的目的是針對有多污者加稅 還是持有多污閒置者加稅"},{"start":12305.805,"end":12322.804,"text":"不是多屋嘛,你只要多屋有使用不是你很多房子我叫多顆領的稅,是你有多房子還閒置不拿來使用是對不使用進行一個對象,不是對持有很多"},{"start":12325.126,"end":12341.392,"text":"如果你是出租我們也歡迎你把它出租出去你不要投資客持有很多的空屋你也不住也不讓人家住也不出租這是我們要的目的嘛對不對打囤房打的是什麼是囤的行為不是打房的數量是不是這樣子"},{"start":12342.893,"end":12361.483,"text":"數量跟囤有關係家中持有多戶且未有效運用者這是我們那一年的很清楚是不是這樣子家中持有多戶且未有效運用那有沒有有效運用呢如果只有單一且供自租我們減輕從1.2變成1.0股利釋出只要你出租我們也讓你優惠對不對"},{"start":12362.483,"end":12374.954,"text":"第三個如果繼承為共有的時候處分跟利用難以區分你們也講到了不能有效利用跟過路者不同我們要不要對非自願持有共有者的說服你們就寫了嘛你們當年改了之後就訂了嘛那為什麼不做"},{"start":12382.284,"end":12398.43,"text":"有啊 那我說那個狀況服務不過我想委員這樣子 委員的提醒這些東西我們會都把它收集起來然後收集起來 我們能夠直接函釋就趕快函釋那有一些地方政府的一些狀況我們會邀集地方政府再來開會看有沒有需要檢討改進的部分我們會再持續做這樣的經濟"},{"start":12404.652,"end":12432.212,"text":"打火要急啊等到火把房子都燒光了你再救火車到人家不感謝你了啦昨天我們在這個委員會我們去處理了保險法保險法當中因為要保人為債務人債權的強制執行解約抵債的部分過去這兩年三年製造了很多的民怨昨天我們跟保險局跟金管會我們委員把它解決了所以我希望說當時有一個什麼當時有發布指引喔"},{"start":12433.334,"end":12456.323,"text":"司法院也發布個指引告訴執行法院什麼樣的保單你先暫時不要執行等著修法請問這些狀況有需要再對防護稅法來進行處理嗎還是只是要一個同意的指引就可以我想這個部分我們先不要動法律在法律的不動的情況下在下面來做 同意多久可以弄一個指引"},{"start":12459.181,"end":12481.395,"text":"要不要做成指引 我們先把韓式能趕快出去的先出去韓式我覺得這樣子啦 部長 要更積極一點當時司法院就趕快發了一個韓式了不是一個韓式 一個指引這個指引把很多狀況都涵蓋進去當然你們現在沒有指引 各個科證狀況不同我希望你趕快制定一個全國性的指引然後呢 現在問題來了接下來他今年的稅怎麼報 不是到6月2號為止"},{"start":12483.937,"end":12506.462,"text":"是不是你們開始想說如果根據這個指引他已經把稅報了但是新的指引公佈之後他是可以退的那你們是不是可以多退少補還是明年的時候再來處理因為這個對涉及到人民的權利因為法的生效因為你的函是因為你的指引才生效嗎沒有我本來根據你的指引我不用繳那麼多防護稅的我今年已經繳完了你明年要不要退我會不會要不要退"},{"start":12509.29,"end":12528.605,"text":"總部委員叫他去打行政訴訟吧呃 我想這個該要退的當然是要好 所以呢今天給你一個機會明確的跟全國的房屋的持有人跟他說明今年的房屋稅的亂象其實是震動期間新舊轉型我們有些死料未及連立法者我都跟我的選民道歉我說你們兄弟共有單獨共"},{"start":12530.586,"end":12539.607,"text":"多人共有一人使用的情況我們的確那時候沒有想到但是呢現在這個問題我說一請你們發布一個統一的指引在一定期間呢可以做到嗎"},{"start":12541.038,"end":12565.302,"text":"全國一致的指引這部分我們會先趕快就個別來去做然後指引也會做指引出來之後如果今年涉及到今年的權利義務的部分是不是在明年的時候讓他可以多一個補償明年的時候明年還是要繳房屋稅啊他如果今年多繳了明年就少繳嘛至於怎麼退的部分我們再來討論一併在指引公布的時候告訴全部的房屋所有權人好不好"},{"start":12566.242,"end":12571.745,"text":"對我們會跟稅金機關來做處理好很好謝謝來我們看下一頁接下來就是統一發票今天我們在談預算的刪減跟凍結統一發票被刪了18.5億沒有辦法恢復了所以1到4月我們本來雲端發票你們要多一個獎項有個500元只維持245萬組你們有說維持現在的獎別跟組數將是極獎的情況混動式檢討經過現在1到4月了"},{"start":12595.387,"end":12611.784,"text":"五到六月以後有沒有多餘的經費可以來滾動式檢討增加主數啊有沒有辦法有沒有檢討了我想跟委員報告一下因為這些統一發票我們雖然比去年跟主數一樣可是因為營業稅的收入增加所以我們希望"},{"start":12612.384,"end":12628.672,"text":"可以再增加主數 因為被刪了以後結果增加的主數不如原來的預期那就相對影響到一個中獎率那至於調整什麼主數的話 這要看還有跟那個 我說你們有沒有滾動檢討啦有滾動檢討如果有機會補給大家好不好 當然要滾動檢討像我們國產署的經費被刪了快1億增加了我們國產署上所持有的國有土地登革熱的風險"},{"start":12638.317,"end":12662.923,"text":"其實國產署每年要花很多的用很多心力去維持這些國有土地避免造成地方的登革了是不是這樣子現在這預算被刪減了對不對那當然刪減當然會影響施政的量能所以說今天我們預算有一個解凍解凍後我希望財政部做一件事情包括所有單位解凍後如果說恢復了這個錢就你們剩下來的七個月"},{"start":12663.942,"end":12684.645,"text":"恢復解凍後的錢是還足以支應你們原來的計畫的趕快告訴大家恢復之用那前面已經損失掉的因為你解凍凍結的時候你前面幾個月受影響嘛前面如果受影響的部分因為解凍而恢復了可不可以去檢討如果可以恢復的趕快恢復有些過了就沒辦法恢復了譬如說中獎"},{"start":12685.819,"end":12695.609,"text":"我一到五月你們開箱數就那麼少就算解凍了你主數可以增加也沒有辦法提供我過去五個月的中獎率這沒辦法的對不對有辦法的可不可以幫忙檢討改進"},{"start":12697.15,"end":12707.339,"text":"解凍以後我們當然去積極執行但是刪除的部分就沒有辦法再恢復原來的量度嘛所以我說分刪除的跟解凍的刪除的你們滾動式檢討解凍的你們往後生效的過程當中檢視前面的有沒有機會填補前面因為因凍結而造成的損失你們願意彌補權益的不足好不好好 我們積極的推動"},{"start":12719.79,"end":12733.38,"text":"希望你們在一個月內召集各地方稅務機關拟據訂定房屋稅科徵統一指引還有後續的繳納辦法的方案一個月提出來謝謝我們謝謝鍾嘉賓委員接下來我們請黃珊珊委員謝謝主席 我們請莊部長我們請莊部長"},{"start":12751.482,"end":12778.025,"text":"委員好我想今天早上非常多的委員包括剛剛這個中央立法院委員大家都在討論我個人把這個部分叫做房屋稅2.0的亂象房屋稅2.0其實造成了非常非常多民眾的困擾那事實上我們當然這個修法立法院通過必須就是剛剛所說的房屋稅2.0的解決的方案到底要解決什麼"},{"start":12779.031,"end":12787.886,"text":"所以解決的方案是我們要讓房子有人住嘛所以我們用戶籍法的規範說你有戶口我才當成你有人住對吧"},{"start":12789.602,"end":12810.415,"text":"我們用戶籍來認定他是不是自住那這跟地價稅的標準是一致的但是中華民國很特別我們的戶籍法非常的嚴格叫做有居住事實就要簽戶口所以我們用簽戶口來認定他有居住事實但是反過來台灣有非常非常奇怪的法規第一個叫做學區"},{"start":12811.946,"end":12835.174,"text":"所以很多人學區要簽到朋友的房子去為了卡戶籍拿學區另外一個是社會福利到不同的縣市有不同的社會福利所以他會簽戶口去拿社會福利第三個還有選票親朋好友選舉他就跑到另外一個縣市去設戶籍所以戶籍法你認為中華民國的民眾都是有居住室時就會簽入戶籍嗎"},{"start":12837.605,"end":12854.961,"text":"我想基本上剛剛您講的那個是一個事實狀況但是事實上我居住在這邊我就應該在這邊設戶籍嗎在台北或北部有太多太多的在這邊念書的學生在這邊上班的上班族租房子他設的了戶籍嗎"},{"start":12858.37,"end":12876.981,"text":"可以涉戶籍啊可以涉但是你覺得涉得了嗎房東為什麼不讓他涉因為他要拿自住啊他不讓他報稅他要拿自住他最重要的就是接下去他交易稅他要免除房地合一稅房東如果有出租的話他就不能做自住所以我才說嘛"},{"start":12878.53,"end":12898.065,"text":"部長這些問題其實才是真點也就是說我們現在戶籍把它變成說你每一個地方你都要去設戶口所以我們現在發現了全台的所謂的住宅用有721萬的自住房屋到2月的時候你們的統計是說辦完戶口的大概是86還有97萬戶並沒有設戶口所以表示就97萬戶是空戶囉還是你們認為他只是還來不及設"},{"start":12908.983,"end":12926.372,"text":"有一些是因為還沒有設計 那時候我們把時間就把它我們就把它延長了嘛那有一些它事實上它是出租的啊那租還用自住的話 這個並不合理啊是 但是我們應該要回歸到正軌 我覺得委員我們這個東西我知道 所以我的意思是說"},{"start":12927.563,"end":12939.413,"text":"如果戶籍當成唯一的依據那我們是不是還要配合其他的方案到底有沒有居住事實這件事情是我們政府一直不願意面對的事情包括學區包括選舉包括所謂的社會福利其實都有這個問題今天這個戶籍我講個簡單的一個案例好了"},{"start":12949.369,"end":12972.894,"text":"有民眾他來陳情就是說他在搬他的房子他設戶口回去是去年的事地價稅也已經簽戶的時候戶政事務所服務非常好直接幫你通報地方的地政機關說我地價稅用自用住宅自用住宅但是今年的房屋稅他收到了就是雙倍吧"},{"start":12973.646,"end":13000.775,"text":"他的房子又被列為非資助他戶口早就簽進去了我想問一下以前是地方稅你現在統一由中央來做相關的集合對不對中央沒有做集合我想跟委員報告這樣的一個情況有些是個案因為通報他都要通如果戶政機關都有通報所以不會只通報這個價格那有的是有他的格式或者是填寫的格式不一致不管你來不來做啦你現在既然全國總歸戶的話我覺得這是財政部的責任"},{"start":13003.957,"end":13022.047,"text":"有地價稅是自用住宅,房屋稅不是自用住宅,那是怎樣?戶口明明在裡面,而且當時就是在正式戶口已經通報了但是一樣沒有勾結,這才是今天什麼叫房屋稅之亂因為我已經通報你,我還會收到一個非自住的然後排到去場,我去年戶口已經簽了,去年地價稅已經給了"},{"start":13023.388,"end":13047.719,"text":"今年又跑來跟我說我還要再申請一次這是不合理的好謝謝委員我知道我們會因為是今年第一年嘛首次開徵那我想這個政策目的是它立法當時有它的政策目的那今年首次開徵那我們會趕快邀集地方政府第一個已經知道了我們就趕快函釋那另外有些個別的說法我們請地方政府來我們盡快把它做成一個更明確的就像我們在"},{"start":13050.8,"end":13056.157,"text":"租金扣繳的這個所謂的特別扣除的部分當時有很多在北漂的"},{"start":13057.912,"end":13082.98,"text":"家裡在南部的我們把租金扣除了只要是能證明你在北部就業就學的你就可以申報這是財政部用行政命令直接統一規範不用再修法同樣的房屋稅這個剛剛講的指引就很重要這些離離口口有的沒有的不應該再發生而且民眾會覺得我通報你了結果第二年我還要再去通報一次是怎樣這個政府是失能嗎"},{"start":13084.065,"end":13101.524,"text":"好 我們這個部分我們會一起來做處理第二個就是 部長我們我剛剛看到是你好像才剛從亞營回來嘛 對不對對 是的亞營在把我們更名之後我們是每年都抗疫每年都撐草今年你去抗疫有沒有效果"},{"start":13102.961,"end":13117.329,"text":"第一個我跟委員報告把我們更名的是一個非常不合理不公平的對待我們今年依然會今年新的總裁有沒有什麼回應今年在我跟總裁會面的時候有特別提到這樣的一個議題我看到你說這個會影響到我們對亞營的捐助"},{"start":13122.19,"end":13137.436,"text":"這個部分當然因為國內的民眾也好委員也好都非常關注這個議題然後也會在審預算的時候告訴他們立法院現在已經不想再給你們這麼多錢去捐助亞營了是我知道這個委員的意見我們都有做反應"},{"start":13141.317,"end":13152.525,"text":"最後就是我今天看到早上民進黨團已經開記者會說要提財化法的修法財化法的釋憲不少我想請教一下那時間暫停主計長一起主計長請"},{"start":13160.953,"end":13188.904,"text":"部長 主席長 我想這個法案我們去年到現在我們已經討論一年了 這就不贅述了我們3月份你們開過一次會3月21號復議案駁回所以接下來你們釋憲 請問卓榮泰院長在立法院被選的時候我質詢他很多次尤其是3月21號復議案的那一天他告訴我他手上有院板請問兩位有沒有看過院板"},{"start":13191.021,"end":13216.608,"text":"部長手上那份院板你看過沒莊部長跟委員報告 事實上我們有方案提交給院長主席長你看過院板嗎我有討論過一部分有討論過沒有出院板到現在你們也沒看過院板是嗎所以院長手上那一份從頭到尾不是行政院的立場只是討論的內容"},{"start":13218.366,"end":13241.684,"text":"我想這個部分我們都經過討論 而是方案所以重點是如果行政院認為有你們的立場跟方案有沒有要再跟立法院討論溝通呢還是只是復議跟釋憲而已呢我們在提復議的時候就希望立法院能夠再一次主計長清楚的回答我你已經告訴我今年度的預算你們會按照新法來編列 對嗎"},{"start":13243.834,"end":13258.536,"text":"大聲一點吧對是未按照刑法來編列依法行政是行政機關的職責然後現在申請釋憲這是當然這也是民進黨團的權利重點是我們希望第一個"},{"start":13260.426,"end":13283.194,"text":"財政收支劃分法我還是要強調台灣民眾黨的版本是非常務實的台灣民眾黨的版本是給財政部非常非常多彈性空間的他現在還躺在委員會第二個部分就是主計長我們要知道接下來預算各縣市政府都在編列他們會面臨到什麼樣的變數然後你今年的預算碰到這個狀況你將怎麼應對主計長"},{"start":13288.121,"end":13312.784,"text":"對 我們也會 其實我們大部分也有這怎麼解開這個僵局啊你們沒有任何方案院長的那個版本不想拿來跟我們討論一下讓我們大家重新思考嗎不是 現在目前如果說先照新的案來做院長在4月的時候說要釋憲但他之前說他們考慮提新版本所以你們的目前的態度就沒有新版本 只有釋憲意圖 是嗎"},{"start":13314.918,"end":13327.363,"text":"有四限也有新版本啦所以新版本什麼時候要給立法院看看討論想想這是一個重要的事情地方政府都在編預算沒有人可以再等你們想想"},{"start":13328.738,"end":13350.591,"text":"預算編完了要執行到七月份以後又要送到他們的議會討論這些東西都不是你們現在這樣子拖拖拉拉可以做的事啊所以主席長我只要你一個具體的答案你要告訴我你怎麼解決這個僵局你現在預算編列完了之後又釋憲 釋憲的過程中發生什麼過程地方政府怎麼應對"},{"start":13351.872,"end":13372.588,"text":"他們的補助款、統籌分配款拿不拿得到?有沒有錢給他們?請回答現在是說如果115年我們按新的來籌劃的話當然他們蓋納的錢都可以編入他們的稅務嗎?是的是的你有清楚的告訴他們你們可以把新法裡面的統籌分配稅款編入你們的稅務嗎?"},{"start":13374.482,"end":13388.778,"text":"但是這個部分相對的也會減少一些計劃型的補助所以你們清楚的告訴地方政府了嗎還沒有你們什麼時候要訂出這樣的標準呢還是要等市縣的結果市縣的結果的話就不用編預算啦"},{"start":13389.264,"end":13409.862,"text":"沒有 我們現在都已經在籌劃當中了籌劃當中所以大概什麼時候會告訴地方政府他們會增加的錢跟會減少的錢大概是七月初七月初在此之前我還是希望政府要解決僵局最好希望你們把你們認為合理的版本拿出來給大家看看"},{"start":13411.805,"end":13433.475,"text":"好的版本有什麼怕人家看嗎到今天為止院長喊了三四個月的版本拿在手上見不得光這真的很丟臉啊好嗎我希望一個月之內把這些你們要做的事這些事情的方向給我一個初步的答案主計長剛剛講怎麼編預算怎麼編你要給地方政府什麼樣的方向一個月之內給我一個說明好嗎好謝謝"},{"start":13437.425,"end":13451.236,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員 謝謝部長 主席長接下來有請黃委員國昌質詢時間四分鐘鄭天才委員請準備來 謝謝主席麻煩有請部長 財團署署長部長及署長委員好"},{"start":13462.581,"end":13487.403,"text":"部長署長好我想積極活化國家資產是所有納稅人大家共同的期待那也是財政部包括國有財產署多次的宣誓那我這一次5月6號我到雲林的北港去那邊參加白沙屯的活動的時候我在離開的路上有人把我攔下來陳情"},{"start":13490.12,"end":13507.44,"text":"攔下來路上他指的就是這棟建築物就是雲林北港台氣客運大樓他說這棟大樓廢墟放在北港放了二十幾年了當地的人都不知道到底在幹嘛"},{"start":13509.292,"end":13522.188,"text":"說這個是國有財產是國有財產署的那甚至從雲林縣政府到北港鎮都提出了很多各式各樣開發的構想國有財產署都不同意"},{"start":13523.936,"end":13549.31,"text":"那人家攔我下來澄清講這件事情我回來當然要查資料嘛我不會人家跟我講什麼我就相信什麼結果我一看果然還真的是這樣廢墟放了28年那我就去把整個歷程把它調出來那調出來你們過去跟雲林縣政府到底要開發的方式有什麼樣的旗艦這我不介入啦中央政府跟地方政府你們好好的去談"},{"start":13550.35,"end":13578.337,"text":"我最後看到財政部發的聲明是說這個延宕國有財產整體開發及地方經濟發展所以你們也知道是延宕延宕兩個字是你們新聞稿講的不是我講的二十幾年講是延宕兩個字恐怕這個詞還是過於輕鬆但現在的重點來了重點來了就是說你們說要加速開發要帶動周邊商機促進民間投資這個都是國有財產署"},{"start":13581.155,"end":13606.775,"text":"然後我查了以後你們到今年的時候因為去年開始吧去年前年開始你們說要搞什麼地上拳結果搞了半天你們堅持了這麼久要搞地上拳搞了半天也流標流標那現在編的預算要把它拆掉所以我那天站在那邊我就一直看著那個大樓圍起來感覺是要拆那你們現在拆不好以後打算怎麼辦"},{"start":13609.369,"end":13638.696,"text":"其實可以可以快點快點我時間有限我後面還有問題報告委員短期內我們先做停車使用那這個部分有跟證供所這邊來談當然同時我們也需要所以你們是什麼國有財產署自己開停車場還是要撥給證供所用沒有我們跟地方合作批件停車場收費停車場所以是平面還是立體的平面然後同時我們也準備繼續做地上權的這個招標所以繼續招標前面流標兩次了嘛"},{"start":13639.276,"end":13666.604,"text":"因為前面最主要是建築物的存在我覺得你們整個的思維讓我沒有辦法理解因為我看了你們過去的爭執那個是商業區 監華區的土地那你說下面什麼客運轉運站上面商場BOT等等的你們說不符合國家的利益結果拖了這麼久以後把它拆掉搞成平面停車場是比較符合大家的利益這個是國有財產署的判斷嗎"},{"start":13667.959,"end":13684.164,"text":"跟委員報告因為之前要做那個轉印站事實上現在很多的刻印業都在蕭條那轉印站的部分呢要不要在這個地方事實上大家在地方那個事情都已經過了啦他也沒有要在這個地方啦"},{"start":13684.784,"end":13707.385,"text":"人家牽到其他台堂的土地都處理好了啦現在我只跟你提醒一件事啦當初你們堅持的理由這個過程當中是不是有什麼政治其他的考慮我不要去揣測啦你們中央政府跟地方政府的事啊但是我要反映的是北港屈民他們的心聲啊放在那邊爛太久了啊"},{"start":13708.553,"end":13722.904,"text":"真的放在那邊爛太久了啊對不起當地北港的民眾啊我要講的就是這件事啊拆完了以後怎麼樣使用對當地地方的經濟發展最好國財產署會不會承諾跟地方政府好好談啊"},{"start":13724.552,"end":13748.861,"text":"包大委我也有請我們分署長去拜訪過鎮長大家在談未來的使用剛剛講的第一個短期我們趕快因為那個地方還是有很多的停車需求第二個當然我們之前的地上潛招標條件的問題我們也做了檢討應該是在今年的第四季或是明年的第一季我們還是會再上架第二個陽明山馬槽花藝村的溫泉"},{"start":13754.329,"end":13768.841,"text":"我接到公務員跟我投訴啊公務員跟我投訴什麼說這是一個非法的業者非法非常的久啊違法接溫泉水佔用國有地什麼事情都來搞"},{"start":13769.983,"end":13789.134,"text":"然後呢他再用多筆的國有土地有些是養管處的少數是國有財產署的他說他長期的違規我也不會聽人家講就相信我去調財閥的資料出來還真的是這個樣子從民國八十幾年一路搞到什麼搞到今年啊"},{"start":13790.411,"end":13812.191,"text":"2025年2月不斷的裁罰當地其他違法的溫泉業者都處理了只有這家後台特別硬啊沒有辦法處理啊結果養管處要去依法執行這件事情國有財產署有出來擋嗎說這個土地不要這樣子搞下去"},{"start":13813.291,"end":13822.15,"text":"不要去叫人家拆不要去告人家把地撥給國有財產署國有財產署要租給這個非法的溫泉業者有沒有這回事"},{"start":13823.224,"end":13846.516,"text":"報告委員我們有去看了事實上他是沒有辦法輔導合法沒有辦法輔導合法嗎所以國有財產署的立場要講清楚啊要不然很多公務員都誤會啊說這個背後有大咖的人在撐腰啊國有財產署不僅不執法還要養管處把土地撥給你們租用給民間業者絕對沒有這回事對不對"},{"start":13847.672,"end":13866.263,"text":"是的沒有這回事絕對不會這樣幹對不對跟委員報告我們有實際去了解的事實上他現在開始陽管處會來執行斷水斷電那相對的我們也會沒有關係是不是這樣執行下去我們拭目以待謝謝謝謝黃委員謝謝部長謝謝署長接下來有請鄭委員天才質詢時間4分鐘葉委員員請準備"},{"start":13885.209,"end":13887.611,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請主計長主計總署4月23號發文給所有的地方政府"},{"start":13910.902,"end":13938.229,"text":"就針對這個114年度中央對這個地方政府的一般性租款5月到12月份的部分改列為未分配數以至於他們都沒有辦法拿到這些經費最主要你們的理由就是因為通案刪減900多億然後要自行"},{"start":13940.153,"end":13967.751,"text":"要由行政院自行調整刪減數636億500多萬這個部分你們的主要的理由那事實上如果我們看當初民眾黨所提的通案刪減的這些理由而且它的所列舉的其實都是一般維持費"},{"start":13969.211,"end":13995.548,"text":"像這個禮費像這個業務特別費像這個建築設備的費用相關的這些一般事務費等等包括媒體宣傳這些所以列舉這些其實是第一個立法院通案刪減的決議"},{"start":13998.45,"end":14017.942,"text":"其中因三檢的所謂的另以補足,你就是因為這四個字,另以補足的科目應該是指一般維持費等這些費用而且是針對中央要支出的經費,而不包含"},{"start":14019.768,"end":14039.201,"text":"補助地方政府的經費結果你們去拿地方政府來開刀這個是一個不合理的部分不僅僅是這樣針對延民會的基本奢侈維持費補助到原住民族地區的鄉鎮市公所"},{"start":14040.93,"end":14069.674,"text":"這個經費你們也把它因為這個你們的這個公文然後園民會就凍結50%基本設施維持費這個基本設施維持費啊是我在園民會服務的時候親自去協調主計總署當時的主計總署然後才由園民會編列這個經費直接補助到鄉鎮市公所"},{"start":14071.361,"end":14095.756,"text":"這個就是因為原鄉的財政非常非常的困難然後縣市政府不一定會把經費他們的預算經費會給他們所以才會有這樣的一個基本設施維持費也是因為主席總署也以這個理由我有特別新聞給這個主席總署主席總署也以這個理由"},{"start":14097.357,"end":14125.205,"text":"同樣的理由來去讓這個延民會去凍結50%的經費讓地方政府非常非常的 延鄉啊讓延鄉非常非常的困難所以這個部分應該要趕快請延民會把他駁負所以這個請主席總署為了實際上第一個立法院的決議的意思不是這樣"},{"start":14126.516,"end":14136.141,"text":"然後第二個基本設施維持費的應用也不是像你們所想像的那樣所以這個部分應該要趕快去處理可以嗎"},{"start":14137.88,"end":14155.479,"text":"報告委員這個部分這個是院裡頭凍結50%這個是院裡頭下的下的結論說要凍結50%所以這個部分我們必須要回去跟院裡頭來反映這件事情那至於我們所謂就是說"},{"start":14156.9,"end":14174.501,"text":"那個暫分配暫停分配我們一般性補助款的這個部分因為通案刪減的部分他是一般維持會但是一般維持會刪的也差不多了沒有辦法再刪減了那根據以往的往例他就是可以刪減其他的"},{"start":14175.722,"end":14200.397,"text":"所以這個部分我們也是比照以往的往例來刪減所以這個部分我們也還沒刪減我們現在只是戰略會分配先做為這個部分你要戰略到什麼時候因為我們現在就是說要簽院長准了之後才來做一些真正刪減的動作主席長趕快處理"},{"start":14201.874,"end":14229.395,"text":"不然的話 你有很多方法 不用說追加預算啊對不對 或者是特別預算啊被刪的那個台電的費用都拿來特別條例 特別預算所以這個部分很多方法另外最後我們這個 昭緯已經站了很久了禁法補償禁法補償 這個已經很明確立法案"},{"start":14230.39,"end":14252.489,"text":"院長也同意用追加預算這麼明確的部分追加預算當初本席對於這個圓明會的預算是希望能夠趕快送來然後你們的報告裡面相關的這些預算應該要3月10號以前要送來"},{"start":14253.969,"end":14265.695,"text":"3月10號也命會送給你們了你們到現在兩個多月了還不送到行政院行政院還不送來立法院要收回了所以這個部分你要掌握這個時程好不好"},{"start":14266.246,"end":14290.218,"text":"各位委員報告因為我們這個總預算他要求四限所以還沒有辦法去辦追加主席長如果按照你的說法的話全部都停擺了因為還沒有四限所以要全部停擺這不對的何況追加預算這個是追加預算第一個 院長同意追加預算第二 立法院做了主決議"},{"start":14291.539,"end":14302.006,"text":"都要追加預算 跟那個事先無關啊 好不好好 請主席長 會後再跟我們政委員說謝謝政委員 謝謝主席長接下來有請葉委員 原資質詢 時間4分鐘請王委員事先準備麻煩請主席長"},{"start":14322.532,"end":14331.919,"text":"有請主席長委員好主席長好我們那個新北市"},{"start":14333.944,"end":14351.622,"text":"本來應該有一般性的補助款主委總署一月已經核定了但是在四月的時候忽然修改方式本來一到六月是共會撥五十五點零九億可是四月份修改之後呢七到十二月"},{"start":14352.623,"end":14375.888,"text":"只編了4.68億平均一個月只給7793萬短撥了51.68億對於地方的財政以及地方要做的業務造成極大的影響我想請問一下主計長忽然間這個四月份修改方式事先有跟地方政府溝通嗎"},{"start":14377.128,"end":14393.598,"text":"沒有這個部分主要是因為我們被刪減了632事先有沒有跟地方政府溝通我們一會通知他你根本沒有溝通嘛你一直溝文下去你沒有在管地方政府死活我跟你講這些原本的一般性補助款"},{"start":14394.258,"end":14418.278,"text":"是要用在比如說低收入家庭兒童跟學生的一些補助還有中低收入戶的老人津貼的一些相關的業務還包括教育的部分學生的營養午餐基本的設備等等結果因為哇 主計總署在完全沒有跟地方政府溝通情況之下直接一個公文過去就告訴地方政府我們要掃編51.68億給你 掃給你51.68億"},{"start":14425.517,"end":14434.228,"text":"現在中央政府都這麼傲慢都沒有在管地方政府死活請問一下忽然間在沒有溝通情況之下就做了這樣一個決定的原因是什麼"},{"start":14434.858,"end":14458.193,"text":"我們主要是針對爭域財源的部分才暫緩撥納所以爭域財源的部分對地方影響比較少沒有那第二個這是你講的我的了解就不是這樣對但是他如果說這個部分稅出方面他是沒有影響他影響的是稅入這個部分如果說他本身這個在調度方面有問題他就是可以去貸款"},{"start":14458.673,"end":14484.6,"text":"對 影響稅率當然就是會影響沒有錢可以給人家啊他就變成要去銀行借錢啊會增加利息的支出啊主委長 請問一下你現在短波的這個是一般性補助款對不對是那理由是剛剛聽你講說是因為你認為總預算還要釋憲嘛是不是 在等到釋憲結果出來之前所以你做了這樣的調整嘛 沒錯吧"},{"start":14485.407,"end":14503.317,"text":"不是 我們是現在通案刪減他939嘛那我們依項目減 減了3030的話通案刪減有刪減到一般性補助款嗎他項目的部分 按照道理我們是可以沒有嘛 今天我去看一般性補助款你們總共變多少2501億1279萬"},{"start":14510.544,"end":14537.168,"text":"這全部都照列啊沒有人去刪沒有人去動所以你都是可以動資的啊但是他636他要我們自己刪減636你要那通刪那你就是主席長你就可以分配啊請問你在636你要去刪到一般性補助款嗎你有要嗎我們要刪到一般性補助款你自己有沒有要去動到這一般性補助款嗎我們有要刪啊那準備你要刪多少"},{"start":14538.312,"end":14550.459,"text":"這個部分我們要簽你現在如果你認為說是因為通山部分影響到你的話那你應該有個負案嘛比如說你已經計劃要去通山一般性補助款多少了嗎多少"},{"start":14552.116,"end":14569.27,"text":"其實這個 多少嘛 沒關係你就回答嘛你這應該有數字嘛 多少只是說你現在有一個負案是通山多少但是你覺得你要透過四線的救濟手段嘛然後等到救濟手段沒有出來之前你要調節嘛我現在就問你你原本通山你要三一半系補助款多少"},{"start":14569.813,"end":14574.576,"text":"因為我們本來刪2076嘛要刪到一般性補助款2076不是我們本來是刪2076那裡面含有362076單位是什麼議員一般性補助款總共25011然後你要刪2076"},{"start":14586.104,"end":14611.677,"text":"不是 我是說中央補助的 中央政府的部分今年被刪減2076不要扯別的 我們現在 我已經跟你談到項目了嘛 不要再扯別的了嘛是 那我現在就在想2076裡面有939是通案刪減那通案刪減它指定項目的部分就是303沒有指定項目的就是636那所以這636的部分我們當初一直"},{"start":14613.297,"end":14639.349,"text":"凍結的部分一直沒有送是因為說到底要不要刪這些你不要答非所問我現在就問說你636你要通刪你有要通刪到一般性補助款嗎有嗎多少原則上是全額啦你要全額把2501億照列把它刪掉你總共636你要刪2501億3636所以你636全部都是要刪一般性補助款為什麼"},{"start":14640.421,"end":14650.155,"text":"因為我們因為這個錢是要給地方的所以你要把因為有被要求通3636所以你就要把一般性補助款全部當作這636喔"},{"start":14652.341,"end":14671.891,"text":"也太誇張了吧所以中央完全沒有在理地方喔地方的需求中央完全不考慮喔有人叫你通山全部刪一般性補助款嗎真的太扯了啦我跟所有的立法委員都來自於地方聽到主計總署這樣子講通山就是要把一般性補助款全部刪掉有道理嗎"},{"start":14673.649,"end":14699.965,"text":"你就中央山也是要按比例啊有說針對這一項要全部通山的嗎這有道理嗎因為我們中央已經山了1439沒關係主席長大家都看到了這一些錢都是比如說我們地方我今天也不是為了新北市講而已啦全台灣那麼多縣市都受影響啦那全台灣的縣市民眾都在看啦中央的態度就是因為有被通山所以我全部都是要把你地方間砍掉你剛剛的態度就是這樣啦好 謝謝葉委員 謝謝主席長"},{"start":14704.144,"end":14722.272,"text":"接下來有請王委員事監質詢謝謝主席 我請莊部長有請莊部長"},{"start":14731.673,"end":14755.318,"text":"委員好部長好這個三天前主計處又公布了我們第一季今年前三個月的平均薪資這個平均薪資有提高提高到四萬三千五百八十九元可是相對的"},{"start":14756.914,"end":14779.548,"text":"我們有69.77%也就是將近七成的民眾是領不到這個平均薪資的而這六年來從六年前當時領不到平均薪資的是66.75%這六年來再度擴大到69.77%就是貧富差距再度擴大"},{"start":14786.107,"end":14811.361,"text":"而商納五金的是我們受雇的民眾員工工時從110年的每個月166.7小時一支逐年增加到去年169.2小時到去年底的統計貧富差距再度擴大"},{"start":14813.308,"end":14837.175,"text":"而工時再創新高那講到貧富差距擴大這個去年5月那儲蓄署也公佈了這個家庭財富分配那這個我把它做一個表格後也就是說在34年前民國80年的時候當時啊當時"},{"start":14842.409,"end":14849.537,"text":"前20%收入的家庭跟後20%的這個對照來講是16.8倍而現在擴大到民國110年擴大到66.9倍"},{"start":14858.649,"end":14862.832,"text":"那前20%家庭的財富佔比由49.71%佔整個社會財富49.71%提高到62.68%後20%家庭的佔財富比從2.95%降低到連1%都沒有"},{"start":14882.765,"end":14889.332,"text":"降低到連1%都沒有0.94那前20%的家庭財富民國80年的時候是1306萬到民國110年30年後5133萬然後後20%家庭從78萬降到77萬這很明顯的"},{"start":14908.494,"end":14926.731,"text":"嚴重的財富分配不均那我個人認為財富分配不均很重要的一項我們政府可以做的照說我們從財稅負擔從稅收可以來做調整而現在我們的稅收裡面我們總計我們總收去年3.48兆"},{"start":14932.954,"end":14947.758,"text":"3.45兆稅收裡面我們有高達21.8%是在綜合所得稅那在財產稅的部分不到10%只佔7.6%綜合所得稅遠高於財產稅3倍那也就是說"},{"start":14957.523,"end":14979.318,"text":"真的享受到低稅負擔的好處的是這些地主 財閥 老闆們啊 這非常清楚而負擔大部分 稅負來源的是我們勞工 上班族 薪資所得者"},{"start":14980.356,"end":15005.805,"text":"那這個部分當然說來話長也不能怪你一個人但是所以我具體我今天要講三件事我希望就是說第一件就是在於這個股利所得稅的計算方式我當時為了提高投資意願當時我們推動所謂股利所得分離課稅的新制"},{"start":15007.949,"end":15026.218,"text":"那這個形式當然是好但是原本前50大高股利的所得戶我們在105年106年統計他們他們股利所得得到的有效稅率是38.41%38.41%隔一年37.96%那是在105年106年"},{"start":15036.949,"end":15040.976,"text":"結果西治之後我們現在調降為28%從過去的38%降到28%對於鼓勵所得"},{"start":15051.417,"end":15073.331,"text":"我們少課了10%那當時是為了鼓勵大家說啊就是去提高他投資院大家去購買股票嘛而相對的喔那個當年舊稅制的時候107年上市的股票總市值是29兆3100億當時是這樣"},{"start":15078.466,"end":15094.993,"text":"結果現在反而總市值上市怪總市值70兆8千億啦我們反而把這個稅率降低所以我積極建議你今天帶回去研究我認為要階梯稅率"},{"start":15096.588,"end":15112.882,"text":"階梯稅率也就是說我們不是說不能定單一稅率說28%應該根據他鼓勵所得定階梯式的有低有高那整個拉高不能只有28%因為因為這是財產利得這是投資利得啊"},{"start":15120.748,"end":15140.713,"text":"那一般綜合所得稅是辛苦的勞苦的生斗小民上班勞工那這樣去得到的薪資所以遠低於這些鼓勵所得嘛希望階梯稅率再來另外一點就是說我們這個關於"},{"start":15143.052,"end":15154.15,"text":"租金的抵稅那現在我認為我們訂的租金抵稅太低啦我們現在訂的租金抵稅房屋租金抵稅"},{"start":15155.851,"end":15179.764,"text":"我們現在訂18萬元啦 18萬元那我認為啊 如果你橫估我們台北 新北 雙北實際的租金行情的話你可以看 在左邊這邊 這是台北而且這一部分 還是去年 還是低估的喔低估的 右邊是新北那我平均把它抓 平均把它抓一坪1500好了"},{"start":15182.016,"end":15203.676,"text":"雙北的部分那一個正常的小家庭至少也要20坪那就3萬元一年小家庭租金至少都要在雙北都要一年要36萬元我覺得18萬元的這個抵稅額太低啦太低啦所以我希望這幾點這個關於階梯稅率"},{"start":15207.25,"end":15221.773,"text":"鼓勵所得改為階梯稅率以及房屋的租金的抵稅我認為要提高這兩點是不是你帶回去研究那你在最短期間給我答覆好不好"},{"start":15222.153,"end":15238.146,"text":"好 謝謝委員的建議你多久可以答覆我我們就兩個月可以嗎兩個月兩個月會期都結束啦一個月好了好不好一個月好一個月我就等你一個月好謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝王委員 謝謝部長今日發言今日正義發言委員均已詢答完畢現在"},{"start":15251.479,"end":15251.799,"text":"現在處理臨時提案 請議事連員宣讀"},{"start":15266.104,"end":15294.403,"text":"本院委員賴思寶等人有進行金融市場競爭激烈國營金融機構近年來獲利屢創佳績為受限於預算法規範無法結實支應額外構建固定資產之需求而削弱其競爭力原提案要求財政部及主計總處對國營銀行構建固定資產預算之一般建築及設備計畫部分除房屋及建築中之新建及構置各項辦公房屋"},{"start":15296.364,"end":15324.243,"text":"交通及運輸設備中資、購置管理用車輛及增加國庫負擔經費者外其餘項目金額在新台幣8000萬元以下者依業務需求自行辦理並補辦預算必使固定資產購置規劃與執行根據彈性與行動力是否有讓敬請公決提案人賴世寶、林德福、顏寬恆、賴慧媛、李燕秀、林思敏、鍾嘉斌宣讀完畢"},{"start":15326.274,"end":15351.377,"text":"好 那麼關於這個臨時提案請問機關代表有沒有要補充 那請請就發言台好 那請莊部長這個提案剛剛有跟委員做一個溝通希望做一個文字的一個調整就是在第五行的部分由財政部嗆"},{"start":15354.473,"end":15370.999,"text":"洽組織總署這個就即改為洽就是由我們發動來洽組總那另外呢在於倒數第三行的部分有關製刑辦理這個製刑我們建議修為由主管機關代理代判院搞辦理好謝謝謝謝財政部莊部長那麼請問組織總署OK嗎"},{"start":15380.08,"end":15404.503,"text":"可以 主席總統OK好 那麼我們在場按照剛剛的文字內容修正通過 請問有無異議好 沒有異議 好 我們修正通過今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢現在處理中華民國一一四年度中央政府總預算一 財政部主管預算解凍案專案報告十七案請問各位委員有無異議"},{"start":15406.48,"end":15424.658,"text":"無異議 我們通過審查完畢准予動之提報院會行政院主計總署主管預算解凍案專案報告一案請問在場各位委員有異議有異議 那請方委員好 主席"},{"start":15430.464,"end":15448.716,"text":"主席 各位同仁我們在主計處的相關的預算凍結裡面其實很大塊是在說財化法那裡面就是有一些還是沒有回覆得很清楚不過我剛剛已經質詢過我還是希望主計長在明年的預算現在正在編列然後接下去地方政府也都在等到底是不是依新法"},{"start":15449.256,"end":15468.002,"text":"按照新法的規範去做相關的編列第二個部分我們還是希望主計處必須要在這個解凍之後其實重點還是要怎麼去解決財化法的爭端我覺得這個還是希望他們能夠做一個完整的說明麻煩主席可以讓他們說在一個月之內給我一個"},{"start":15469.582,"end":15490.559,"text":"剛剛我質詢的相關的要求就是希望他們拿出不管是院板的院長所說他們自己有自己的方案或者是說在地方政府編列預算的時候他們應該要做什麼樣的指引他們到七月份以前就必須要把這些指引全部都給地方政府這些事情我覺得非常的重要所以在解凍案上面我希望做出這樣的要求 謝謝"},{"start":15492.025,"end":15506.088,"text":"好 那麼黃委員口頭上的要求在剛剛的詢答當中有表達了 那麼主計長這邊是否可以跟黃委員做一個說明來 請到發言台這邊"},{"start":15512.373,"end":15530.303,"text":"這個部分我再說明一下因為財務法整個主責的部分是財政部所以這個部分他版本要不要提出來這個部分我們可以協助但是我們沒辦法主導所以這個部分是不是這個要提出財務法版本的這個部分是不是可以再做修正一下這個部分"},{"start":15531.905,"end":15558.241,"text":"黃委員至少編列預算的方案預算的方案我們可以但是柴旺華的這個版本的部分我們可能這個部分可能要那個部分我們就請財政部是是是好那這樣好不好那個因為黃委員希望有一個想法有一個想法你們可以跟他說明那是不是可以陳組織總處跟財政部分別就剛黃委員詢答內容當中所提及他的希望理解的部分請你們再跟黃委員做說明可以嗎"},{"start":15559.906,"end":15577.28,"text":"好 可以喔好 那就跟黃委員在另外跟黃委員本人說明好 謝謝黃委員那麼這樣再次的確認請問對於行政院主計總署主管預算解凍案專案報告疑案有異議沒有 那我們通過審討完略准以動之提報院會"},{"start":15578.695,"end":15595.61,"text":"好接下來本次會議做如下決議報告說明及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期所定委員陳玉珍所提書面質詢"},{"start":15598.349,"end":15619.794,"text":"列入記錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆針對一四年度中央政府總預算凍結案處理情形財政部主管預算凍結案七十九案審計部主管四案及行政院主計總處主管十九案均處理完均准予動之提報院會請問各位委員針對以上決議有依"},{"start":15622.515,"end":15635.667,"text":"無疑通過好那麼本次會議議程已進行完畢堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢一併列入記錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理好現在三位"}]}},{"id":"16678","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16678","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d14eb38c982c93fb9b6918ac9a813397552bdb8234cc31cacedc108c173340d1f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局、海洋委員會、大陸委員會、法務部調查局報告「中國複合式威脅對我國家安全之影響」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-15","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-15T08:31:01+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-15T11:37:00+08:00","duration":11159,"影片長度":"03:05:59","委員發言時間":"08:31:01 - 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財閥 老闆們啊 這非常清楚而負擔大部分 稅負來源的是我們勞工 上班族 薪資所得者"},{"start":261.667,"end":287.113,"text":"那這個部分當然說來話長啦也不能怪你一個人啦但是所以我具體我今天要講三件事我希望就是說第一件就是在於這個股利所得稅的計算方式我當時為了提高投資意願當時我們推動所謂股利所得分離課稅的新制"},{"start":289.283,"end":308.929,"text":"那這個形式當然是好但是原本前50大高股利的所得戶我們在105年106年統計他們他們股利所得得到的有效稅率是38.41%38.41%隔一年37.96%那是在105年106年"},{"start":318.28,"end":322.302,"text":"結果西治之後我們現在調降為28%從過去的38%降到28%對於鼓勵所得"},{"start":332.748,"end":354.66,"text":"我們少課了10%那當時是為了鼓勵大家說啊就是去提高他投資院大家去購買股票嘛而相對的喔那個當年舊稅制的時候107年上市的股票總市值是29兆3100億當時是這樣"},{"start":359.5,"end":376.343,"text":"就現在反而總市值算四塊總市值七十兆八千億啦我們反而把這個稅率降低所以我積極建議你今天帶回去研究我認為要階梯稅率"},{"start":377.919,"end":394.215,"text":"階梯稅率也就是說我們不是說不能定單一稅率說28%應該根據他鼓勵所得定階梯式的有低有高那整個拉高不能只有28%因為這是財產利得這是投資利得啊"},{"start":402.062,"end":422.047,"text":"那一般綜合所得稅是辛苦的勞苦的生斗小民上班勞工那這樣去得到的薪資所以遠低於這些鼓勵所得嘛希望階梯稅率再來另外一點就是說我們這個關於"},{"start":424.383,"end":435.483,"text":"租金的抵稅那現在我認為我們訂的租金抵稅太低啦我們現在訂的租金抵稅房屋租金抵稅"},{"start":437.165,"end":461.107,"text":"我們現在訂18萬元啦 18萬元那我認為啊 如果你橫估我們台北 新北 雙北實際的租金行情的話你可以看 在左邊這邊 這是台北而且這一部分 還是去年 還是低估的喔低估的 右邊是新北那我平均把它抓 平均把它抓一坪1500好了"},{"start":463.347,"end":484.397,"text":"雙北的部分那一個正常的小家庭至少也要20坪那就3萬元一年小家庭租金至少都要在雙北都要一年要36萬元我覺得18萬元的這個抵稅額太低啦太低啦所以我希望這幾點這個關於階梯稅率"},{"start":488.561,"end":492.967,"text":"鼓勵所得改文階梯稅率以及房屋"},{"start":494.461,"end":518.388,"text":"租金的抵稅我認為要提高這兩點是不是你帶回去研究那你在最短期間給我答覆好不好好謝謝委員的建議你多久可以答覆我我們就兩個月可以嗎兩個月兩個月會期都結束啦一個月好了好不好一個月好一個月我就等你一個月好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝王委員謝謝部長"},{"start":526.38,"end":528.256,"text":"今日發言 今日正義發言委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1051,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（12時35分）謝謝主席。請莊部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：部長好。3天前主計總處又公布了我們今年第一季前3個月的平均薪資，這個平均薪資有提高到4萬3,589元，可是相對的，我們有69.77%，也就是將近七成的民眾是領不到這個平均薪資的；6年前當時領不到平均薪資的是66.75%，這6年來再度擴大到69.77%，也就是貧富差距再度擴大。","而傷腦筋的是，我們受僱的民眾，員工，工時從110年的每個月166.7小時，一直逐年增加到去年的169.2小時，這是到去年底的統計，貧富差距再度擴大，而工時再創新高。","講到貧富差距擴大，去年5月主計總處也公布了家庭財富分配，我把它做了一個表格，也就是說，在34年前、民國80年的時候，當時前20%收入的家庭跟後20%收入的家庭的對照，是16.8倍；到了民國110年，擴大到66.9倍。前20%家庭的財富占整個社會的財富的比例從49.7%提高到62.68%；後20%家庭的財富占比從2.95%降低到連1%都沒有，變成0.94%。前20%的家庭財富，民國80年的時候是1,306萬，到了民國110年，也就是30年後變成5,133萬；後20%的家庭財富，從78萬降到77萬，這是很明顯的、很嚴重的財富分配不均。","我個人認為，財富分配不均很重要的一項，這是政府可以做的，照說我們可以從財稅負擔、從稅收來做調整，而現在的稅收裡面，像去年3.45兆的稅收裡面，有高達21.8%是在綜合所得稅；在財產稅的部分不到10%，只占了7.6%，綜合所得稅遠高於財產稅的3倍。也就是說，真的享受到低稅負擔的好處的是這些地主、財閥、老闆們，這非常的清楚，而負擔大部分稅負來源的是勞工、上班族、薪資所得者。","這個部分當然說來話長，也不能怪你一個人，但是我今天要具體地講三件事，第一件，就是在於股利所得稅的計算方式，為了提高投資意願，當時我們推動所謂股利所得分離課稅的新制，這個新制當然是好的，但是部長，原本前50大高股利的所得戶，我們在105年、106年有去統計，他們的股利所得、得到的有效稅率是38.41%，隔一年是37.96%，那是在105年、106年，結果新制之後，現在調降為28%，從過去的38%降到28%，對於股利所得少課了10%，當時是為了鼓勵大家提高投資意願去購買股票，而相對的，當年舊稅制的時候，107年上市股票總市值是29兆3,100億，當時是這樣，結果現在反而上市櫃總市值70兆8,000億，我們反而把稅率降低。所以我積極建議……你今天帶回去研究，我認為要階梯稅率，不是說不能定單一稅率28%，應該根據他的股利所得定階梯式的，有低、有高，整個拉高不能只有28%，因為這是財產利得、這是投資利得；一般綜合所得稅是辛苦的、勞苦的升斗小民、勞工上班所得到的薪資，遠低於這些股利所得，所以希望要階梯稅率。","再來，另外一點就是關於租金抵稅，我認為現在定的租金抵稅太低了，房屋租金抵稅現在是定18萬元，我認為如果你衡估臺北、新北（雙北）實際的租金行情的話，可以看在左邊這邊，這是臺北，而且這部分去年還是低估的喔！右邊是新北。雙北的部分我平均抓一坪1,500元好了，一個正常的小家庭至少也要20坪，那就3萬元，一年小家庭租金至少在雙北一年都要36萬元，我覺得18萬元的抵稅額太低啦！太低啦！","所以我希望這幾點，關於股利所得改為階梯稅率，以及房屋租金抵稅我認為要提高，這兩點是不是你帶回去研究，你在最短期間給我答復，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員的建議。"],["王委員世堅：你多久可以答復我？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們就兩個月可以嗎？"],["王委員世堅：兩個月！兩個月會期都結束啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：1個月好了，好不好？"],["王委員世堅：好，1個月。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["王委員世堅：我就等你1個月，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。","今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢。現在處理臨時提案，請議事人員宣讀。","臨時提案","案由：本院委員賴士葆等7人，有鑒於金融業市場競爭激烈，國營金融機構近年來獲利屢創佳績，惟受限於預算法規範，無法及時支應額外購建固定資產之需求而削弱其競爭力，爰提案要求財政部及主計總處對國銀銀行購建固定資產預算之一般建築及設備計畫部分，除房屋及建築中之新建或購置各項辦公房屋、宿舍與交通及運輸設備中之購置管理用車輛，及增加國庫負擔經費者外，其餘項目金額在八千萬元以下者依業務需要自行辦理，並補辦預算，俾使固定資產購置規劃與執行更具彈性與行動力。是否有當，敬請公決！","提案人：賴士葆　　林德福　　顏寬恒　　賴惠員　　李彥秀　　林思銘　　鍾佳濱"]],"agenda":{"page_end":588,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","李彥秀","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：（12時21分）主席，各位委員。有請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主計長好，辛苦了。主計總處4月23號發文給所有的地方政府，針對114年度中央對地方政府的一般性補助款5月到12月份的部分改列為未分配數，以致於他們都沒有辦法拿到這些經費。最主要你們的理由就是因為通案刪減九百多億，然後要由行政院自行調整刪減數六百三十六億五百多萬，這部分是你們的主要理由。事實上，如果我們看當初民眾黨所提的通案刪減的這些理由，而且它所列舉的其實都是一般維持費，像旅費、業務特別費、建築設備的費用、相關這些一般事務費等等，包括媒體宣傳，所以列舉這些，第一個，立法院通案刪減的決議，其中應刪減所謂的「另予補足」，就是因為這四個字「另予補足」的科目，應該是指一般維持費等這些費用，而且是針對中央要支出的經費，不包含補助地方政府的經費，結果你們卻拿地方政府來開刀，這是一個不合理的部分。","不僅僅是這樣，針對原民會的基本設施維持費補助到原住民族地區的鄉鎮市公所，這個經費你們也把它……因為你們這個公文，然後原民會就凍結50%基本設施維持費，這個基本設施維持費是我在原民會服務的時候親自去協調當時的主計總處，然後才由原民會編列這個經費直接補助到鄉鎮市公所，這就是因為原鄉的財政非常非常困難，縣市政府不一定會把預算經費給他們，所以才會有這樣一個基本設施維持費，也是因為我有特別行文給主計總處，主計總處也以這個同樣的理由去讓原民會凍結50%的經費，讓原鄉非常非常困難。所以這個部分應該要趕快請原民會撥付，所以請主計總處：第一個，實際上立法院決議的意旨不是這樣；第二個，基本設施維持費的運用也不是像你們所想像的那樣，所以這個部分應該要趕快去處理，可以嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，針對這部分，凍結50%是院裡頭下的結論，所以我們必須回去跟院裡頭反映這件事情。至於所謂暫停分配一般性補助款的部分，因為通案刪減的部分是一般維持費，而維持費刪得也差不多了，沒有辦法再刪減了，根據往例就是可以刪減其他的項目，所以這個部分我們也是比照往例來刪減，其實這個部分我們也還沒刪減，現在只是暫列未分配來作為這個部分的處理，當初為什麼……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你要暫列到什麼時候？"],["陳主計長淑姿：現在就是要等院長簽准了之後才來做真正刪減的動作。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主計長要趕快處理，不然你還有很多方法，譬如追加預算或者是特別預算，台電被刪的費用都可以用特別條例、特別預算的方式處理，所以這個部分有很多方法。","召委已經站了很久了，最後本席要問一下禁伐補償，其實這已經很明確，而且立法院和院長也都同意用追加預算的方式處理。當初本席是希望原民會的預算能夠趕快送來，而你們的報告裡面相關的預算應該要在3月10號以前送來。3月10號原民會送給你們了，到現在兩個多月了你們還不送到行政院，然後行政院也不送來，眼看立法院就快要休會了，針對這個部分你要掌握時程，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：跟委員報告，因為總預算要釋憲，所以還沒有辦法辦追加，也因此這個部分就沒辦法……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主計長，如果按照你的說法，那全部都停擺了啊！因為還沒有釋憲，所以要全部停擺，這是不對的！何況這是追加預算！第一個，院長同意追加預算；第二個，立法院做了主決議要追加預算，這與釋憲無關，好不好？"],["主席：請主計長會後再跟鄭委員說明。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，那就麻煩主計總處。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員，謝謝主計長。","接下來有請葉委員元之質詢，時間4分鐘，請王委員世堅準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":588,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","李彥秀","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","葉元之","王世堅","陳玉珍"],"page_start":521,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理中華民國114年度中央政府總預算決議有關財政部主管預算凍結書面報告案 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"],["主席：請職安署林署長。"],["林署長毓堂：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：署長好。今天我們委員會要審議預算解凍案，所以在預算解凍之後，我想請教幾個職安署預算使用的問題。目前就安基金10億的預算整體執行率大概多少？哪些計畫的執行率是最差的？原因是什麼？"],["林署長毓堂：欸，委員……"],["陳委員瑩：你不知道？"],["林署長毓堂：委員應該是指就安基金裡面使用到就保基金預算的部分，目前大概有6支計畫，我手上沒有相關資料，但確實有部分……如果以就保基金裡面的計畫來看，有部分的……"],["陳委員瑩：就安計畫……"],["林署長毓堂：平均是95.12%。"],["陳委員瑩：95.12%是什麼？"],["林署長毓堂：執行率。"],["陳委員瑩：執行率95.12%，你確定是就保……"],["林署長毓堂：現在講的這個95.12%是整個使用到就安基金預算的所有計畫。"],["陳委員瑩：所以沒有執行最差的？執行率95%你覺得好，還是不好？"],["林署長毓堂：執行率比較不高的部分，有一個計畫是百分之七十點多，這是有關於……"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！我的題目很清楚啊！我一開始就問你執行率最差的，你怎麼就報喜不報憂！還是你沒有聽清楚我的問題？我可以再講一次，目前就安基金10億的預算！整體執行率大概多少？然後哪些計畫的執行率是最差的？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，整體執行率是95.12%，其中執行率比較低70.05%的部分是有關高風險、高違規廠房工作環境改善的輔導。"],["陳委員瑩：你覺得原因是什麼？"],["林署長毓堂：主要有部分是涉及經費的補助，就是一些高風險的工廠或是屬於過去說的3K產業、較辛苦產業的廠房輔導，所以會有一些經費的補助，如果申請案不多的話，可能就會影響到經費的執行。"],["陳委員瑩：你上任之後覺得要如何改善這些情形？因為你是從副署長升任署長的，所以你要怎麼去確保這些預算執行之後，未來可以改善，並且有助於提升我們職業安全的水準？"],["林署長毓堂：既然有編這樣的經費，這個經費就要補助到位，所以這個部分我們未來會了解在事業單位申請上，到底是我們的程序，還是我們的項目沒有配合上它真正的需求，這個部分我們會來檢討。"],["陳委員瑩：未來針對職災預防有沒有什麼創新的措施跟作法，跟過去可以有不一樣的思考，能夠真正解決前任署長沒有辦法解決的問題，例如像我不久前才質詢的重大職災高居不下的這個問題等等？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，其實在整個減災裡面最重要還是在法規跟制度的部分，我們認為在法規的部分，現在整個職安法正在做研修，再來，制度面我們也會去檢討是不是……"],["陳委員瑩：不好意思，你可能要大聲一點點，因為你聲音要壓過這邊我才聽得清楚。"],["林署長毓堂：是，除了加強勞檢以外，我們認為在制度上也必須要去做一些讓事業單位自己可以運作內部的安衛管理機制，我覺得這個是我們未來要努力的方向。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。過去本席曾在4月9號提到，職安署的主管即將有很多人不想幹了，想要提早退休或調職，而且也聽說署長有自己比較偏好的子弟兵，期待署長可以提拔升官，這些主管是不是還會離退？你要如何穩定軍心，好好的跟這些主管合作，讓你帶領的職安署的業務能夠順利推動呢？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員回報，剛剛委員提到什麼子弟兵或是……這個在內部完全沒有聽到這樣的訊息，確實，在我上任之前就有部分的主管因為屆齡要退休，這個部分我們是希望他能留下來跟我們一起合作，這個部分會持續跟同仁溝通。到目前為止，有關於人事的部分，我們內部還在持續考量當中。"],["陳委員瑩：我想人事的穩定其實是讓整個業務穩定、順利推動的一個重要因素，你沒聽到的，但外面卻傳得沸沸揚揚，沒關係，我是提出來提供大家討論、討論。職安署過去好像比較偏向職業安全的領域，未來你要如何兼顧職業衛生領域的工作？"],["林署長毓堂：確實，在安全上，過去我也有回答我們在整個減災部分還要再持續努力，目前來講，在整個產業的發展中，衛生跟健康的部分也是現在不管國內外都非常重視的一塊，所以這個部分未來在整個計畫上跟執行上我們都要特別去強化。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我想以上的問題是讓你這個新上任署長可以簡單的政見發表一下，我們也留下紀錄，作為未來檢視的一個參考。","現在要問一些比較嚴重的問題，食品裡面會有PFAS殘留，那麼勞工在生產的過程當中有沒有可能暴露？"],["林署長毓堂：不管是剛才委員提到的，它會使用在什麼樣的器材上，基本上生產都是勞工在生產，所以這個部分在環境部的行動計畫裡面，我們有扮演一定的角色，不管是整個健康、衛生個人的保護部分……"],["陳委員瑩：好，那個待會我會再問你，我想問的是，這些勞工的暴露風險相較於國人，誰的暴露風險比較高？"],["林署長毓堂：當然是在做這樣的業務的本國勞工風險比較高。"],["陳委員瑩：本國勞工？"],["林署長毓堂：沒有，我說在現場作業的勞工。"],["陳委員瑩：一直到現在，有沒有勞工朋友因為這樣的暴露而導致職業病？"],["林署長毓堂：就我們的資料目前是沒有。"],["陳委員瑩：沒有不代表沒有發生，可能是我們沒有做研究。"],["林署長毓堂：是。"],["陳委員瑩：你們在全氟及多氟烷基物質管理行動計畫裡面的分工我看到的只有兩項，就是因應國際趨勢，依主管業務權責強化勞工對PFAS的安全與健康預防及危害認知，以及對勞工宣導安全及健康之保護，對化學品危害之認知進行教育宣導。請問這個部分你們做了些什麼？"],["林署長毓堂：我們主要是讓現場的作業勞工知道……"],["陳委員瑩：我知道，你們已經做了什麼？你們做了哪些，還是還沒開始？"],["林署長毓堂：如果是在法規部分，針對危害標示的部分，我們目前已經讓事業單位第一線的勞工知道，從事這個工作是有危害的，我們在做這樣的宣導。"],["陳委員瑩：所以只有宣導標示，只有標示而已？"],["林署長毓堂：目前是。"],["陳委員瑩：你剛剛也講到，勞工對於PFAS的健康風險其實應該是很高的吧？"],["林署長毓堂：是。"],["陳委員瑩：所以我想你們後續可不可以再多做一點事情？"],["林署長毓堂：可以。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。除了土壤跟食品以外，勞工的暴露也只會比國人還高，因為他們更增加了職業的暴露，希望職安署不要忽視這個問題的嚴重性，應該有更多的精進作法，包括作業環境監測、相關的採樣分析方法，還有容許濃度標準，以及特別危害勞工的健檢，這些都是職安署應該要有的責任跟職掌，署長，你認同嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：是，認同。"],["陳委員瑩：我剛剛提的這些，你們大概多少時間內可以做出來？"],["林署長毓堂：這個部分因為也涉及到長期的研究，我們是不是跟我們研究所再來討論一下？"],["陳委員瑩：那你可不可以先預估抓個時間？因為如果我們不訂時間，大家都會拖。"],["林署長毓堂：是，那委員給我們三個月時間好不好？"],["陳委員瑩：兩個月行嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：好。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。關於多氟烷基化合物（PFAS）的危害預防，因為PFAS的作業類型很多，事實上應該有很多勞工可能暴露在這種危害物質中，重點是你們要先掌控可能的暴露族群。因為這種物質存在於生物可堆肥的餐具、不沾的廚具、滅火器、雨衣、家具等產品中，製作這些產品的勞工，還有油漆工，特別是化妝品的製造業者，這些都是很危險的族群。署長，你有沒有辦法追蹤到這些族群暴露的勞工？如果你追蹤到了，又能夠怎麼樣去協助他們做好足夠的健康管理呢？"],["林署長毓堂：這一塊我們必須要再更深入去研究，因為這個還沒有辦法鎖定、聚焦到哪一些勞工確實是暴露在這個地方，是不是委員給我們一些時間去做研究？"],["陳委員瑩：我想署長應該也大概了解有哪些產品、哪些業者比較會接觸PFAS這些危害的物質，所以我們是不是可以事先來協助這些雇主做危害暴露的監督管理？因為看起來你們實在是做得不多啦！"],["林署長毓堂：目前跟環境部的配合事項是比較少，沒有錯。"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！但因為這就是最毒的，比那些塑膠微粒還要可怕。"],["林署長毓堂：是。"],["陳委員瑩：所以麻煩你們加速一下，要很積極。"],["林署長毓堂：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：最後，本席想要請你明確的回應，身為署長，未來在職場不法侵害及勞動條件的檢查業務會顯著的增加，你們舊有的組織框架能夠應付得來嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，現在因為我們配合整個職安法在修法，未來修法後業務會不會增加？我想我們會通盤來盤點。"],["陳委員瑩：對啊，其實有的法都已經修訂完成了，那你支不支持職安署的組織編制應該有所調整？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，以目前這樣的業務推動，我們目前的組織編制在運作上還算可以。"],["陳委員瑩：但問題是你們有的組別因應修法也早該落日啦！結果還存在，也搞不清楚是哪個。"],["林署長毓堂：委員，我們這邊會持續來研議、來檢討。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我剛剛講的是基本常識，你自己回去好好想一想後續該做哪些調整，並於兩週內提出書面報告給本辦跟委員會。"],["林署長毓堂：是。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請楊委員曜來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":560,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","郭國文","廖偉翔","陳瑩","楊曜","范雲"],"page_start":447,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算決議有關勞動部主管預算凍結報告案 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"洪部長申翰：我想我們就是會協助這個條例後續的執行。"],["廖委員偉翔：不是，你沒有回答我的問題，你認同剛剛我說的委員的觀點嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：AI的討論，剛才前面委員討論很多，我覺得關於AI，當然我們會有一些它就業衝擊的部分，但是國定假日修法通過……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你不認同他的觀點？"],["洪部長申翰：我們就會協助這個法規後續的執行，尤其是怎麼樣顧到勞工的權益……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以部長您的意思就是不認同他的觀點嗎？對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得AI有AI的討論，但是國假的通過，我們就來執行……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，您說不認同也沒關係，因為黃仁勳其實也不認同，黃仁勳說AI不會取代人類，但是不會用AI的會被用AI的取代，這樣子可以吧，您懂吧？您懂他講的意思吧，對不對？所以我想在AI裡面，黃仁勳應該是教父級別，所以您說不認同，其實跟黃仁勳的意思是沒有問題的，所以您可以直接大方說您其實不認同這個觀點，好嗎？部長？不用護航這個觀點。","好，部長，我想要告訴你，其實我想要問一下現在因應關稅衝擊和匯率衝擊對於勞工的這些衝擊，請問有哪一些方案？"],["洪部長申翰：我想我們其實現在有幾個方案都在進行，針對減班休息的部分，我們的僱用安定措施也包括適用的產業、包括啟動的條件，我們現在也單純重新做了一些設定。"],["廖委員偉翔：好。部長，其實我們上次有到臺中考察，我想要請教一下，部長知不知道有哪些方案裡面有幫助到所謂的自營作業者跟無一定雇主？"],["洪部長申翰：我們現在其實也在針對要給自營作業者協助，我們提出增加的方案。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以原本沒有，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：我們現在也針對這部分要提出增加的方案。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝。部長，我跟你說，我這裡就是要幫他們爭取，因為上次到臺中考察完之後，這些人是被漏接的一群。部長，這些人是被漏接的一群，所以要請您好好的把他們加入這個方案當中，各種補助方案甚至幫助勞工轉型，他們都很需要，因為現在有很多的方案只給這些所謂的企業或是有一定雇主的人，所以這個部分要跟部長講一下、跟部長報告，也要盯緊一下，請部長可以趕緊重新擬定這個方案，然後提給本席辦公室一個報告，可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，現在針對這部分，我們也在做方案的研商，但是它開始實施的時機點會要看關稅影響的情境推演，所以我的意思是，就方案部分我們會準備，可是每一支方案什麼時候適合啟動跟上路，這會看各種不同的情境，會找適合的時候……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我跟你說一件事，因為其實第一線的感受，我想署長那天也在現場，那天李次長在現場講的好像是非常樂觀，以他目前知道現在談判的狀況，他覺得應該是樂觀的，所以可能不會啟動到最後一個階段，包含上次我想要爭取的即時安心上工或是擴大臨時津貼、工作津貼的部分。可是我要跟您報告，其實第一個，我剛剛講的第一件事情，就是所謂自營作業者跟無一定雇主，當天有一個整復師、復健師來現場，他就告訴現場所有的長官、行政部門，他說：你知道為什麼我今天可以來嗎？然後大家不知道，他說因為從4月開始，他去他的店裡面做整復、做復健、做按摩的客人少了七成，不然他以前才沒時間來，他以前每天光接這些客人就不夠時間了，所以他那天有來，是因為他從4月開始就有七成的客人損失了。當天除了他之外，還有其他產業包含自營工作者，有一些人是在家裡可能是幫中小企業、中小工廠代工的，其實他們都受到了衝擊。","所以我剛剛特別講，部長，我覺得你的感受、你現在制定政策的感受，可能跟第一線的有落差，而且這些人事實上已經被衝擊了，包含有一些是直接影響，可是他可能是無一定雇主或是在家裡幫忙做一些加工的，這部分要請部長重視，我這邊要特別請部長重視。"],["洪部長申翰：跟廖委員說明，第一個，我們沒有用樂觀的態度或樂觀的心態來看待……"],["廖委員偉翔：其實那天次長是這樣講的。"],["洪部長申翰：我們也沒有用樂觀的心態來看待這個相對關稅的衝擊，可是我們也要針對這種嚴峻的狀況做出準備，所以現在這些相關計畫，我們都必須準備好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，因為這跟第一線的感受真的差蠻遠的，第一線包含臺中市政府勞工局相關處室，處長也說他們開始去訪談之後，感覺對這種無一定雇主或自營作業者的影響是很大的，而你講的這些在你們研議出來之後，時程上要怎麼安排？你要怎麼保障他們的工作權益？因為聽起來你就說一直在研議，可是到底實踐是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：跟廖委員說明，我們並不只是一直研議，第一個，這段時間，其實我們也一直跟這些可能潛在受衝擊的產業工會持續不斷座談，包括中部、彰化……"],["廖委員偉翔：好，沒關係，部長我問一下具體的……"],["洪部長申翰：這部分我們都持續在了解大家的意見。"],["廖委員偉翔：請問，即時安心上工這類的方案，你現在說會準備，請問從整體準備到確切可以實施，要多久時間？"],["洪部長申翰：跟廖委員說明，即時安心上工的這支計畫，主要是提供就業機會，甚至用公部門的資源來提供就業機會，這一支計畫推出的時間，基本上會是在失業程度已經有開始發生的情況……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，所以我問你現在準備的要多久可以營運？"],["洪部長申翰：但是就我們現在……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你回答我的問題，拜託！你剛剛講的都是一些解釋，我只問具體的要多久時間，包含行政流程、程序，要多久時間……"],["洪部長申翰：現在這些……"],["廖委員偉翔：因為如果突然發生了，很多人受到衝擊，你要多久時間才可以上路？"],["洪部長申翰：所以我跟廖委員說明，在發生的過程裡面，第一個，可能會先從減班休息開始發生，而減班休息開始發生以後，如果開始發生失業，包括有協助就業計畫等，到我們要來創造就業機會的這件事情本身，這個計畫的推出會相對比較後面……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有，部長，我剛講的……"],["洪部長申翰：但是如果你把推出的次序對調，反而可能會製造……"],["廖委員偉翔：我沒有要你對調，我只是問你多久時間可以準備好，因為我怕等到那個時間點，你後面的程序來不及，這是第一個……"],["洪部長申翰：不會，我們在6月前就會把這些相關的準備，包括剛剛說的……"],["廖委員偉翔：第二個，你剛剛講的那幾個方案，針對我剛剛前面提到的自營作業者和無一定雇主者，一定要趕快把這兩個身分別納進去，我看署長頻頻點頭，請部長認同就好，因為署長是主管這個業務的。"],["洪部長申翰：我們在上個禮拜其實就已經要求應該針對自營作業者設計協助方案。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，但你現在還沒有嘛！請問多久時間可以給本席一個報告？"],["洪部長申翰：現在在進行中，應該很快。"],["廖委員偉翔：多久？"],["洪部長申翰：因為這甚至還涉及到法規的研修，我們是希望6月可以出來。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以一個月，好不好？一個月內給本席一個報告，然後也開始推動。"],["洪部長申翰：這個協助方案本身，我們希望6月下旬可以出來，但什麼時候上路，還要看關稅衝擊情境的發生，也包括談判的結果。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我跟你講，不只喔！包含你們所謂的「充電再出發」計畫等等，究竟有沒有把自營工作者及無一定雇主者放進去？其實這應該是不管什麼時間點都要放進去的，我舉個例子，現在面對的衝擊是整個臺灣產業要轉型，不管是關稅或匯率問題，產業都要轉型，政府應該帶頭轉型，可是產業要轉型，勞工也要升級。當天現場反映的不只是整復師，也包含小廚師等一些受影響的，他們也希望知道如果生意不好的時候，他可以怎麼幫助自己去上課、去轉型，勞動部要怎麼幫助他？這個部分是我想要強調的，部長。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，確實產業持續需要轉型，勞工的知能、技能也需要持續提升，所以就自營作業者來說，當然包括我們的產業投資人才計畫等，這部分其實是可以的，我們相關的訓練也有相關補助，這部分就都可以參與。"],["廖委員偉翔：其實憑良心講，當天大家的問題，勞動部是沒有辦法具體回應人家的，你現在講的這些……好，不然你把具體方案給我，我馬上回答他們，好不好？因為當天講的所有回應，其實對那些自營工作者而言，他會完全想說這跟我有什麼關係，像什麼微型創業……"],["洪部長申翰：其實針對關稅議題，如果影響到自營作業者，相關的協助方案，我們現在也確實正在研擬……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以這樣回答我就好了嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：正在研擬，對。"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道，所以你後面那些解釋其實……"],["洪部長申翰：這部分其實也在做研擬。"],["廖委員偉翔：一個月，好不好？一個月內請大家關照到這些人。"],["洪部長申翰：相關的規劃，會在一個月的時間提出來。"],["廖委員偉翔：是，我要講的是，因為現在面對的問題是整個臺灣的產業轉型，勞工也要轉型，所以請不要漏接這些勞工，也把他們算進去……"],["洪部長申翰：這當然是我們最重要的政策目標。"],["廖委員偉翔：是。另外，有關勞動基金部分，這一段時間因為匯率問題，請問運用局，我們的基金持有多少美債？產生了多少匯損？"],["蘇局長郁卿：我們每個月月底都會評估持有外幣部位……"],["廖委員偉翔：比率多少？這次匯損多少？"],["蘇局長郁卿：不好意思，報告委員，我們大概都是月底才會評價，但是我要報告……"],["廖委員偉翔：月底？現在5月初，4月底時是多少？因為我現在看到的數據只有到3月底而已。"],["蘇局長郁卿：對，4月底我們還沒有公布，但是我要跟委員報告，這是一個評價的損益，並不是實現的損益，它會影響我們的……"],["廖委員偉翔：我當然知道，未實現損益嘛！"],["蘇局長郁卿：是，是。"],["廖委員偉翔：我就是想知道未實現損益是多少，然後我想要問的是，面對這樣的事件，你們有沒有好的減緩衝擊或避險的措施？目前到底表現得怎麼樣？我想這是所有勞工朋友都很關心的。"],["蘇局長郁卿：是，我們持續在注意這個議題，但是我們也透過投資配置分散風險，包括不同的標的，事實上，目前我們已經投資的國家有七十幾個，透過各種分散的方式來……"],["廖委員偉翔：這個都是投資公報會講的官方話，但我想知道的是具體數字，我想要知道你持有美債的比率多少、面臨到匯損的未實現損益是多少？我想你這樣會讓我有點擔心，我怕你們沒有時時掌握、沒有辦法做即時避險，因為你剛剛講的，我想不管投資什麼東西都會寫類似的話，是不是？"],["蘇局長郁卿：呃，對！但是……"],["廖委員偉翔：如果你現在沒有辦法馬上告訴我，你就說現在沒有辦法馬上告訴我，然後會後提供給本席辦公室一份相關的資料、報告，可以嗎？"],["蘇局長郁卿：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":560,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","郭國文","廖偉翔","陳瑩","楊曜","范雲"],"page_start":447,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算決議有關勞動部主管預算凍結報告案 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["羅委員明才：所以財政部是站在民眾的立場來替民眾設想？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分是財政部，然後院長也有指示。"],["羅委員明才：財政部這樣做的話，你們有沒有做過民意支持度的調查？"],["莊部長翠雲：有沒有做過民意支持度這個部分，我們覺得我們為民眾做事是應該的，然後讓民眾有比較寬廣的時間，民眾要在5月來申報也可以。"],["羅委員明才：聽起來就是說，民眾的好感度還有民意的支持就是覺得財政部很親民，因為沒辦法嘛，外在環境的改變，財政部這樣做其實是對的，你贊不贊同？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員的支持。"],["羅委員明才：接下來我們請主計長。財政部從善如流，一樣是行政院下面的單位，我們就來請教一下主計長，主計長，去年的稅收超徵多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：稅收這個部分是財政部負責的。"],["羅委員明才：好，你不要動。去年稅收超徵5,280億。"],["陳主計長淑姿：5,283。"],["羅委員明才：在民意調查裡面有超過68%，四捨五入大概七成，有七成的民眾支持普發現金。主計長，你會不會從善如流，像財政部這樣親民，像剛剛財政部莊部長所說的，因為便民，民眾有感，然後你們趕快懸崖勒馬好好來思考一下全民普發現金，不多，1萬元，主計長知道為什麼嗎？一人領1萬怎麼樣？快樂長相伴，再一次，一人領1萬，接下來呢？大人小孩通通有希望啊！這個已經是流傳千古，在立法院必考題嘛！已經講了N次了，可是我每次看到主計長表情好像：「哦！到底發生什麼事情？」我跟你講發生什麼事情，那個事情就是發生在我後面那幾個字，叫做什麼？主計長看得到嗎？這是什麼？我每次來立法院開會都是看這4個字啊！往你那邊看叫做「國家至上」，我們心裡愛國家、心中國家至上。","第二個，我們在修法及在審法案的時候，最重要的事情就是「民眾第一」，我也因為這樣的啟發，所以我提案就是領1萬嘛！這個數字也不是我從空而來，就是因為稅收超徵5,283億元，然後每次開會都提醒我「民眾第一」，什麼第一？就一人領1萬，這最優先的事情要做，真的啦！主計長有沒有辦法趕快來協調一下？因為我跟你講，你不要說我，就算你給我1萬元，我也是捐出來給公益單位，我不是站在我個人的立場想事情啦！我是站在很多嗷嗷待哺的嬰兒，他們要買奶粉，奶粉最近不是漲價嗎？補貼一下吧！小朋友買文具用品也需要錢，還有很多，對不對？你們說一直要照顧中小企業、很多的大企業，也照顧一下保金、保貸吧！總共38萬個拉保險的人，在那邊拉得很辛苦啊！還有邊緣人，還有很多的社團、社福單位，這幾年募資都募不到，拜託就是1萬元嘛！請問全世界普發現金的國家有哪幾個？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我沒有查。"],["羅委員明才：沒有查？哇！主席都在笑了，你的幕僚單位是誰？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，聽說日本是有要發啦！但是最近聽說遭受到很大的反對，所以後來也就不了了之了，但是……"],["羅委員明才：好，你說那個還沒發的，有發的有哪幾個？美國有沒有發過？"],["陳主計長淑姿：但是我也跟委員……"],["羅委員明才：新加坡有沒有發過？"],["陳主計長淑姿：新加坡是有發，但是……"],["羅委員明才：主計長先休息一下，請旁邊那位比較厲害的上來，請主計總處公務預算處的處長，許處長讓你發揮一下，我知道你不會想要把主計長幹掉，但是你如果表現得好，大家會注意，請問一下許處長，全世界有普發現金的有哪幾個國家？"],["許處長永議：剛才我們主計長有講過，新加坡有發過。"],["羅委員明才：新加坡發過，發多少？"],["許處長永議：這個我不清楚。"],["羅委員明才：好，還有哪一國？"],["許處長永議：香港也有退稅過啦！"],["羅委員明才：香港退稅也是一樣的道理，就是錢給民眾嘛！還有哪裡？澳門？"],["許處長永議：澳門應該是在金融海嘯那時候。"],["羅委員明才：對，有沒有發過？"],["許處長永議：有發過。"],["羅委員明才：美國有沒有發過？"],["許處長永議：美國是加州。"],["羅委員明才：有嘛！疫情的時候也都有發，好，你不錯，至少有做功課，謝謝處長。請問主計長，剛剛回答的那位是誰啊？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們公務預算處處長。"],["羅委員明才：公務預算處處長許永議。"],["陳主計長淑姿：許永議，許處長。"],["羅委員明才：你可不可以考慮今年在加薪的時候，或者考核的時候，記得他有在做功課，就是表現好的人，我們要給他多多鼓勵，也許因為他們蒐集的資料正確、比較廣泛，可以讓主計長在深思熟慮的時候，增加更大的信心來支持普發現金1萬元，因為之前主計長說，你都不知道啊！現在一些參考的數據，也請你體恤民情，民眾真的很需要這1萬元，有七成的民眾支持喔！因為我們都是站在第一線，我今天早上六點多去跑攤的時候，我就遇到一位年輕的曾祖父，我問他有幾個孫子，有兩個。他說：「喔！最近『貴參參』的，香蕉也漲價，雞蛋也漲價。」本來曾祖父要給孫子一些零錢，都沒有啦！我又問年輕曾祖父：「你全家有多少人？」他說：「我家十幾個人。」我說：「現在如果政府有這個好康的事情，一個人領1萬，這樣你會高興嗎？」他說：「我家十幾個人領十幾萬，這樣政府有在做事情。」這句話就是告訴主計長嘛！真的人民很需要，也拜託主計長從善如流，你說台電缺1,000億元，是不是？1,000億元，我找給你，好不好？我找給你，你把2,300億編給民眾，缺的1,000億，我幫你找，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，其實發放現金是有它的時空背景，還有它的目的，政府在安排政策也有很多的目的，如果要還錢於民……"],["羅委員明才：還稅於民啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：它有很多種方法和政策的安排，所以不見得要發現金，以現在來講，這個時候發現金並不是最適當的一個時機。"],["羅委員明才：我知道啦！主計長可以講，可是你講的一定對嗎？也不見得嘛，對不對？就有七成民意支持啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個是我們經過一再的討論之後，所……"],["羅委員明才：所有的立委沒討論過嗎？所以以前普發6,000元是錯的嗎？不是吧！就大家商量，立法院是合議制，大家聽看看，有道理你們就拿去用嘛！你一直要把人民的錢慷人民之慨，然後去補貼台電1,000億元，我問你，你說1,000億……講光電好了，去年台電在光電花多少錢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我可能還要再調查一下，因為這是屬於台電的部分。"],["羅委員明才：你叫他們自己檢討一下啦！光電花了2、3兆，少花一成就有兩千多億，講難聽一點，你們一直挖挖挖，挖台電的坑，叫人民去補補補補，補不該由人民出錢的洞，這就那麼簡單的事情嘛，好不好？你們要去弄光電，那個什麼88槍擊、什麼問題一大堆，都還沒解決，你們就繼續慢慢弄，我只是站在人民第一線的立場，最卑微的就是說：你一人發1萬元。讓大家有充滿一個小確幸，就是這樣而已啊，對不對？你們總不能每年稅收超徵，然後你們就東拿西拿的拿去用，整個都被你們花光光，留一點給民眾吧！你不要說因為民眾沒繳稅，有啊！我們去7-ELEVEN買的時候都有營業稅，每個人都有奉獻，怎麼會沒有，通通都有啦，好不好？全民共享嘛！最後「民眾第一」，好不好？請多多參考一下，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅明才委員。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":588,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","李彥秀","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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。"],["蕭院長宗煌：不會，跟委員報告……"],["萬委員美玲：院長，先讓我把話講完……"],["蕭院長宗煌：絕對不是這個樣子。"],["萬委員美玲：讓我把話講完。第一個，如果我們有刻意要做這樣的連結，不太好。第二個，我們並不是要做這樣的連結，只是媒體有一些誤解或是我們說得不夠清楚，我認為其實這都不是好事。所以今天在這裡本席特別跟您就教，第一個，確定我們本來沒有要安排志工隨行前往法國跟捷克，沒有錯嘛？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，這個跟預算沒有關係。"],["萬委員美玲：沒有關係？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["萬委員美玲：好。所以院長，這邊要跟您說清楚，好。","最後一點很重要，就因為這個議題，本席看到一個問題，故宮文物有何其博大精深的內容，我們現在跟捷克方，如果不是我們自己人去導覽，他們有沒有這樣的能力把我們的文物，就是導覽的精髓上可以說得非常清楚？這個部分你們怎麼做的？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我先把前面那個問題講清楚。"],["萬委員美玲：可以。"],["蕭院長宗煌：志工隊長的確是有找我跟余副院長討論，他們希望自費去，這是一件事情。但我們的回應是說要尊重捷克當地，例如有個展覽在故宮展，然後國外派一個導覽團來導覽。基本上來講的話……"],["萬委員美玲：這個我理解。"],["蕭院長宗煌：這個要尊重當地……"],["萬委員美玲：但是跟預算沒有關係，對嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，這跟預算沒有關係。"],["萬委員美玲：OK。"],["蕭院長宗煌：但的確就是，譬如……"],["萬委員美玲：我們志工很熱心。"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，志工熱心。另外，譬如「大美不言」策展人來布展的時候，他會進行我們志工的教育訓練；同樣的情況，故宮去的話，我們的策展人也會對捷克的導覽人員進行導覽解說的教育訓練。"],["萬委員美玲：好，所以這個部分有做嘛？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，由他們去導覽。這是過去固定的一個交流展的慣例。"],["萬委員美玲：好，說明清楚就好。院長跟所有同仁辛苦了，也希望你們加油！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員質詢。請官員回座。","現在處理解凍專案報告案第一案及第二案，同時也處理臨時提案。請議事人員宣讀並進行討論。","一、解凍專案報告案","一、國立故宮博物院函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送新增決議(九)「業務費」預算凍結30%專案報告，請查照案。","二、國立故宮博物院函，為114年度中央政府總預算決議，檢送決議(六)第5目「新故宮計畫」預算凍結3億5,000萬元專案報告，請查照案。","二、臨時提案","案由：有鑑於113年於教育及文化委員會（以下簡稱教文委員會）進行故宮預算處理時，各黨委員針對「新故宮計畫」共提出23個預算提案，要求故宮進行說明，然經故宮說明完畢後，仍有委員存有疑慮，爰做出凍結「新故宮計畫」3.5億元，並要求故宮提出專案報告之決議。","惟故宮提出之「新故宮計畫」解凍專案報告內容，僅說明當前新故宮計畫各項業務推行進度，卻未針對各委員提出之預算提案進行釋疑，爰提案要求國立故宮博物院應針對教文委員會審查故宮預算時，提出的23個新故宮計畫預算提案，於一個月內必須再補充更詳盡的書面說明報告。","提案人：萬美玲　　柯志恩　　葛如鈞","連署人：劉書彬"],["主席：解凍專案報告案第一案的關係文書在合訂本第81頁，凍結30%，專案報告剛剛也稍微讓大家理解過了，請問各位委員……"],["林委員宜瑾：沒有問題！"],["主席：謝謝。如果沒有問題，我們就准予動支，提報院會。","接著處理第二案，解凍專案報告案第二案的關係文書在合訂本第103頁，同時也有臨時提案。請問各位委員有無意見？","好，請林宜瑾召委。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝。第二案基本上我是支持解凍，不過就故宮的報告來看，其實並沒有完整回應這個提案，所以我覺得還是有一些改善的空間。以下提出幾個問題，請故宮予以答復：以國外博物館的失竊問題為例，策展人將經手之物掉包盜賣，故宮安全最脆弱的地方其實就是內部人員因為使用需要，到庫房拿文物或歸還文物的過程，到底什麼時候拿了什麼文物、幾時幾分歸還了什麼文物，這種事項到底有沒有確實在系統登錄？第二是之前故宮摔破碗的事件眾所矚目，其中除了有一件是工作人員當場摔破以外，其他兩件其實我們都沒有調閱到它最後一次從箱子裡面拿起來的畫面，原因是說年代久遠，沒有這個畫面可調，還有就是文物的位置沒有監視器，這個事情現在是不是有一些改善？再來就是如果有網購商品的經驗就會很清楚，我們除了要保全買家和賣家的權益，在商品開箱的時候一定會對開箱過程進行錄影，以釐清權責，所以故宮文物在移動的過程中，是不是有全程錄影或者存在保安單位的資料？文物到了展場的開箱是否有全程錄影？這個部分也請故宮回答。再者，現行系統如何即時顯示有異常狀況？管理人員即時處理程序為何？","本席會有這些提問，無非是針對故宮防盜軟硬體設施的改革，除此之外，也必須建置整個文物的透明化機制，包括它的遭竊通報和調查機制。我一開始破題就說我同意解凍，可是我覺得你們提交的工作報告感覺起來並沒有很OK，所以是不是在這裡再做進一步的說明？"],["主席：還有沒有委員要提問或者有意見？","請院長先就剛才林宜瑾召委的提問進行回應好嗎？謝謝。"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員說明，故宮文物進出庫都有很嚴謹的過程，時間登錄方面，進庫人員名單、什麼時候進出庫，基本上都有登錄，而且他會通過一個庫房管理系統，所以這個沒有問題。文物的話，不管是入庫或是出庫展出，到了定位都會檢視，而且都會有一個文物的狀況報告，包括我們去澎湖，都會有一個狀況報告。全程錄影的確是沒有，因為要全程錄影的話，我們還要派一個人一直拿著錄影機在那邊錄影，但是到了定點一定會有檢視報告。另外就是文物管理的安全，我們進行了大概2年的脆弱文物檢視，脆弱文物的檢視就是因為我們發生破瓷事件之後，去檢視瓷器裡面比較脆弱的文物，基本上來講這個都有報告，而且在昨天的院務會議裡面我們有備查，這個資料可以提供給委員參考。所以我是不是建議我們提供給委員一個更完整的書面報告？好不好？"],["主席：謝謝蕭院長。","因為我們同時處理臨時提案，所以請問還有沒有其他委員有意見要表達？","好，萬美玲委員，謝謝。接下來是劉書彬委員。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝主席，我們現在是在討論新故宮計畫，當然，本席今天寫了一個臨時提案，我想徵求一下主席的意見，針對新故宮計畫，我們總共有23個預算提案，在這23個提案當中，大家當時提出的每一個提案其實都非常審慎地針對預算進行瞭解，不分黨派的委員都有不同的想法、意見和問題產生，結果因為當時故宮的回答沒有辦法讓我們非常明白，所以後來說要做一個專案報告，以上說的是背景。當然，現在這個解凍案我們是會支持的，只不過我跟剛剛林宜瑾委員說的一樣，針對故宮這次的說明，光是和我自己的提案有關的部分，就有很多不夠清楚的地方，所以我想徵求主席的意見，是不是我們一案、一案來討論一下，然後好好地來做說明？因為針對本席的案子其實也是有不夠清楚的地方，至於要用什麼方式，請主席先做裁示，我想這樣才有辦法繼續處理下去。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員。請劉書彬委員先表達一下，我們待會兒一併來處理。謝謝。"],["劉委員書彬：謝謝主席。我今天質詢的時候就已經提出，故宮對於3.5億的新故宮計畫所做的解凍內容並不完整，而且沒有對各個分項提案、就萬美玲委員所說的部分說明，因此很多部分還要再加強。例如剛才說的圖書文獻大樓，你有說明114年已經完成，但是關於大都會計畫這一部分，是在網路上面公布，對我們的報告並沒有說明，是口頭上補充的，還有我們也是透過剛才委員的詢問才知道今年故宮的參觀人次沒有辦法達到預期的350萬，而且很重要的是到現在外籍旅客才不到一半，更重要的是當中有日本人、韓國人，甚至還有中國人，所以我們有提供一些具體建議，這個部分你在書面報告也都沒有講到，實在是很可惜！","我是希望因應萬美玲委員所提出來的臨時提案，能夠再有機會讓故宮提供書面資料作為紀錄留下來，甚至在一個月之內再提出更詳盡的說明，把這個程序完備，但是還是支持要解凍，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉書彬委員說明。","接下來有請柯志恩委員。"],["柯委員志恩：我們現在如果要以這樣一個提案做處理的話，我還是要回應故宮給我的這個解凍報告書面上面的說法，我還是非常關心，我想請院長回應我，雖然我提的玻璃入口沒有放在今天的解凍案當中，但是我還是想要知道，因為當初也是我提出這樣的問題。","目前為止，我是聽說要用17億做這樣的工程，但是因為通膨、人工，還有其他因素，據說可能到二十幾億，我必須要了解，這樣的狀況之下，目前故宮的預估大概是多少？因為這也是在新故宮計畫當中。這個新故宮計畫包山包海，話題非常多，我們也非常關切，因為當中包括一個百年。你剛剛提到，這個所謂的文創商品是翠玉白菜的金塊，但是這個金塊的價錢也不便宜，把這個東西當作故宮最能夠凸顯的，我個人覺得以後院長的發言可能還是有待商榷。","總而言之，因為這個東西是包在裡面的，所以我沒有看得太明確。我想就教我一向非常關切的這個問題，請院長預估，然後是否可以比較務實的看待這個玻璃入口的問題？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員的說明。還有沒有委員有相關的提問或說明？好，我們先休息10分鐘。"],["林委員宜瑾：不用……"],["主席：院長先說明嗎？好，院長先就剛剛的這個說明、回應一下，謝謝，不好意思！"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，基本上來講，這個計畫的發包是我到任之前的事情，也是在我到任之前送過臺北市文資局審議，審議的結果就是修訂計畫再送，這是一個流程，所以我們還是要送。在送之前，我自己也開過會，也檢討過，決定量體縮小，風格的話，比較有延伸到傳統意象，但大家對那個所謂的入口還是覺得要不要做，因為發包的時候，得標的廠商就是提出這樣的計畫，他就是把一樓大廳的空間挑高，挑高的話，當然會露出來，跟現在大家認為的意象不一樣，事實上，現在的意象也是林曼麗那時候做的，其實也不是原來的意象，所以這一部分，基本上來講，行政人員依行政程序送到臺北市文資審議委員會去審的話，我會尊重委員的意見。","至於社區溝通的部分，基本上來講，我們有做，並不是沒有做，只是反對的人永遠是反對，連捷運發包了，到現在他們還在反對，還在拉布條，所以這個部分，基本上來講，我想要尋求每個人都同意不太容易，但是社會的共識基本上有一個準則在，我們會遵照這個，就像那個無障礙連通道，他們也一直反對，到現在還在反對，可是已經通過了，發包了，他們還在反對，因為他就是反對，沒有什麼特別理由，就是反對。","至於預算的部分，我自己坦白講，變更設計、變更計畫、延長期程是會的，為什麼？因為光是這兩年審查期間，它就delay了。另外，委員講要估列預算，我現在沒有辦法估列，為什麼？因為要在審查通過以後進行細部設計的時候才會知道它到底要花多少錢。至於玻璃帷幕的空間和RC的空間產生的溫室效應，我們已經有研究報告出來了，所以這個部分我們可以提供。有關建築結構的問題，基本上來講，我們也已經請建築師公會做過評估，這個資料我們可以提供，沒有問題。所以空調的部分（就是溫室效應的部分），我們有考慮，結構安全也有考慮，外觀的問題，我們也盡了最大的努力，但是還是要尋求更多的共識。"],["主席：謝謝院長的回應。請萬美玲委員。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝主席，我想今天回應的時間恐怕也很有限，但是鑑於在預算審查的時候，所有委員這麼用心抓出一些問題來，我們也希望故宮能夠做得更好。今天的解凍，當然我們還是支持的，但是今天現場所有委員認為故宮提出來的解凍報告內容看起來只有在說明目前新故宮計畫做了哪些進度，針對我們在審查預算的時候提出很多跟預算相關的疑惑點，或者是還不明白的地方，或者是未盡之處，看起來沒有做很詳細、很清楚的說明，所以我們是不是來提案？就是我們支持這個解凍案，但是我們希望還是必須讓教文所有委員之前提出來的這些地方能夠更清楚的釋疑，針對這23個新故宮計畫的預算提案，在一個月之內，讓故宮給我們更詳盡的報告，讓每一個委員的案子都可以得到更清楚的了解。以上。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員。我看院長拿麥克風是想要回應嗎？我們今天有沒有共識，我想確認一下，在場的委員針對相關的說明，有沒有共識？"],["柯委員志恩：先解凍，再根據萬美玲委員的臨時提案，讓他們再詳盡說明，好不好？"],["主席：好，我想……"],["萬委員美玲：很多委員的案子都有需要再說明……"],["主席：是，我想第二案凍結的3億5,000萬其中有非常多細項，這個新故宮計畫裡面有非常多委員的案子，都有需要更詳盡的說明，臨時提案有提到，有23個新故宮計畫的預算提案，希望再補充更詳盡的說明及報告，到目前為止，這已經算是一個共識。現在專案報告的第二案，就准予動支，提報院會。","臨時提案也照案通過。","各提案如果有委員補簽的話，請議事人員詳細登載在議事錄。","今天登記質詢的委員都已發言完畢，另外有林沛祥委員提出書面質詢。","關於今天的會議，我們作如下決議：報告及詢答完畢；委員所提書面質詢或相關資料，列入紀錄，並刊登公報；委員於質詢中要求提供相關資料或未及答復部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。114年度中央政府總預算有關故宮主管預算解凍案7案，業已處理完竣，准予動支，提報院會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-11","speakers":["葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","劉書彬","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","范雲","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國立故宮博物院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1144901_00003"}}},{"id":"161444","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161444","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d1810d9ddcf91cf07b7f06b4d24be0a63beceb4968b4ec762561e3cd4a860c83e6025ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"11:38:07 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，能夠越快越好。至少在兩個月左右的時間能夠看到初步成果，這是第一個部分。","第二個部分，在今天這個解凍報告裡面有一項跟我一直長期在關心的有關，就是這些健檢資料，不管是勞工健檢或是成人健檢，如何有效地適當的併用？我們可以看到，之前希望如符合四項條件，雇主可併結合勞工健檢跟成人健檢，至少可以讓健檢的過程可以更順利，一方面可以幫助雇主來抵免部分的檢查費用，同時也可以避免醫療資源重複浪費跟節省勞工的時間，針對需要能夠併用的部分這已經行之多年，目前有沒有相關資料知道企業有多少是一併的處理？參與勞工有多少人是這樣做？政策的執行率是多少？部長，你知道這個政策已經執行多久了嗎？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，委員一直關心勞工健檢資料可不可以跟成人健檢資料介接，但在法制上現在是有個資法限制，就像委員今天在簡報裡面提的，目前我們是採鼓勵勞工接受勞工健康檢查的時候，可以將他的健康檢查資料上傳到衛福部成人健檢資料，還是在持續推動中，我們透過很多管道在宣導。"],["王委員正旭：其實這個政策已經執行將近20年了，勞動部推動勞工健檢採納成健資料可以一致化執行已經一段時間，我們很期待如何能讓這個政策執行可以更周全，而且是在符合相關的條件之下，來做這方面的努力，所以這是為什麼我們一直期待有機會能夠把這兩份的資料做整併。衛福部其實也希望請各部會主動上傳各種不同的健檢資料，不管是教育部或其他部會，他們希望透過不同的誘因，還有覆蓋率的了解，跟法律適用的問題提供給各部會來參考。","我們之前也請教過貴部，如何能夠協助讓我們未來在打造「健康台灣」，將很多慢性病資料的整合做有效運用，那個時候部裡面給我們的回復是說，會提供去識別化的資料，讓將來80%的資料可以匯入到未來提供慢性病這些處理的模式。去識別化的資料當作大數據的研究是很好，可是你針對個別勞工有問題的時候，事實上是無法銜接的，這部分我們也持續來考量。最後希望，如果貴部跟衛福部針對勞工的這些健檢資料，還有成人健檢資料能有效整併的話，我相信我們可以達到剛剛的目標。我們了解勞動部所管轄的勞工健檢跟衛福部處理的成人健檢，很多都是雷同或者是重疊的，所以我們很希望大家共同努力，把這些勞工福利的部分，我們可以有更好的方式做更好的精進措施。部長，有沒有其他的想法可以給我們參考？"],["洪部長申翰：因為職安法法規中，要求檢查的項目主要是職業安全的預防，所以要跟衛福部的資料串接，我們願意跟衛福部直接研議，但是可能確實還是會涉及到一些法規上面的問題，因為這些授權資料的應用，包括個資使用能不能夠用在法規上目的外的使用，這裡面可能也會有一些法規上面的議題要來研究。因為這涉及到個資，雖然我們手上有個資，可能也不是我想跟誰、跟哪一個單位、跟哪一筆資料愛怎麼串就怎麼串，所以這可能有技術上的問題必須要克服，這部分我們願意跟衛福部討論。"],["王委員正旭：好，非常謝謝部長的回復，我們知道健康福利資料的運用是未來對國人的健康有更大的幫助，也很期待透過跨部會研議來解決更多的問題。好，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請郭國文委員來詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":560,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","郭國文","廖偉翔","陳瑩","楊曜","范雲"],"page_start":447,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算決議有關勞動部主管預算凍結報告案 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以及維護產業的競爭力等等來做努力，我相信這個是政府一直都在做的。"],["林委員思銘：好，部長，是、是、是，部長，你做了很多說明。面對這一次的談判，業界普遍認為政府對美國太過軟弱，且談判的策略不夠公開透明，建議政府不應該太早掀牌啊！太早掀牌了啦，並應對外公開談判的進度與策略。好多委員在這一次的質詢中，很多時候都告訴我們說，這個不方便告訴你，那個不方便告訴你，那個不方便，這個不方便，到底我們的談判策略、談判進度到哪裡？我們感覺就是黑箱啊！所以民眾才會對這一次的關稅，對臺灣經濟造成的影響，普遍對賴政府的整個因應策略沒有信心嘛，所以你應該更公開地跟大家講嘛，到底你的談判策略是什麼？我想這一點，請部長要檢討改進啦。","另外，我們看到針對半導體的海外擴廠與關稅風險，很多人也建議政府應該要成立護國產業的因應辦公室，由我們的國發會、經濟部、財政部共同成立一個跨部會的護國產業因應辦公室，來協助我們的廠商因應海外關稅與地緣政治的風險，推動供應鏈的雙軸部署，提升臺灣研發能量與留才的政策。對於這些建議，政府是否會虛心的採納，讓民眾對於這一次，我們看到民調是如此的不具信心，來從拾民眾對於政府面對這次關稅的處理政策的信心，你要不要虛心接納？不要還在那邊自己完全就是悶著頭在做。"],["莊部長翠雲：傾聽民意一直是政府都在做的，對於民眾的建議，我們也都會納入參考。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["莊部長翠雲：剛剛委員也提到許多產業策略或布局等等，經濟部一定也會在這方面去做一些考量，就財政部的部分……"],["林委員思銘：是，我想我們財經部會都要做充分的……"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我想財政部的部分，您剛剛也提到有關產業的升級跟轉型，在產創條例裡面，這一次行政院也提出了修法版本，感謝立法院三讀通過，在那裡面對於相關的一些政府的投資，譬如說……"],["林委員思銘：部長，這個我們都了解。"],["莊部長翠雲：項目增加、期限加長、金額也增高，我想這個部分……"],["林委員思銘：現在因為民眾的信心是如此的低，所以各部會其實應該虛心檢討，為什麼民意的支持度會那麼低？為什麼那麼沒有信心？要如何做檢討、改進、調整？這是你們要做的，不是還在講以前的東西。"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，這是這次新的作為。"],["林委員思銘：你要重拾民眾的信心，部長請回。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["林委員思銘：請主計長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：主計長，主計總處前天表示，針對行政院因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例所編列的4,100億特別預算，為能及時推動執行，部分財源須先行舉借債務，因為目前政府的債務距離我們的舉債上限40.6%的規定尚有13.7個百分點，大概有3兆元的舉債空間，而前天也公布114年3月底工業及服務業受僱人數為848萬9,000人，經常性薪資平均數為4萬7,525元，但其中月薪不及平均月薪者占受僱總數的69.77%，也就是說，近七成領不到平均月薪，這個也是再創新高。本席查詢我們國庫署的國債鐘資料，最新的平均每人負擔債務，截至114年4月30日是26.5萬，跟歷年最高的27.4萬已相差不遠，也是近一年的新高，所以請問主計長，你是否聽得出來剛剛本席所提到這三項資訊有什麼矛盾之處？"],["陳主計長淑姿：請指教。"],["林委員思銘：你聽得出來嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：請委員指教。"],["林委員思銘：就是當有七成的民眾領不到我們平均月薪的時候，背負巨大的生活經濟壓力，我們在野黨提出普發全民1萬元現金協助國人生活時，政府一來是全力的反對，二來卻對外表示，4,100億特別預算的部分財源，因為還有舉債空間，所以可先行編列舉借的債務，等於說繼續提高人民債務的負擔，所以主計長，這是不是很荒謬？"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，這個部分是113年度有賸餘1,641億，但是他必須在7月的時候才做審定的確定，所以這個時間慢一點點，因此如果我在這之前要先做那個就必須先舉債，但是我實際上是不用舉債，是這樣子。"],["林委員思銘：實際上不用舉債？但是你告訴我們這個舉債空間還有那麼高、還有那麼大、空間還有那麼大，還可以借3兆，所以可能你未來要舉債？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，我不需要……"],["林委員思銘：你現在肯定告訴我們不會舉債？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，實際上不會舉債。"],["林委員思銘：實際上這4,100億都不用舉債？"],["陳主計長淑姿：不會舉債，因為目前來講我們就有四千多億的累積賸餘，只是說1,641億是113年度的決算數字，目前決算數字我們已經送審計部，審計部要7月才審定。"],["林委員思銘：好，沒有關係，你說反正就不會舉債嘛。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["林委員思銘：但是我想這一次我比較驚訝的，民眾也很驚訝的是，我們這一次的4,100億，其中要補助給台電1,000億，而這1,000億，我們看到過去我們本來是要追加預算，113年度用追加預算，114年度用公務預算，但是這一次卻是「明」渡陳倉，不是「暗」渡陳倉，要在這一次的特別條例4,100億裡面補助台電1,000億，這樣一個預算的編列準則到底是什麼？我看不懂耶！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我再跟……"],["林委員思銘：這次的4,100億不是為了針對美國的關稅政策，而去提出這樣一個特別預算的編列嗎？這跟補助台電有什麼關聯？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這很有關聯，跟委員報告，這次關稅的結果，造成人心浮動，所以物價的部分會有所波動，我們如果能夠補助台電的話，然後能夠不調升電價這個部分，那我們在整個穩定物價上就很好。"],["林委員思銘：主計長，我的時間也差不多了，最後，關於補助台電這件事情，因為我昨天在經濟委員會有問台電，如果這1,000億補助到位，台電可不可以承諾未來不漲電價？可不可以承諾未來不需要再靠政府補助，自己賺就可以了，他可以承諾嗎？他不敢承諾嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：這我也沒辦法承諾。"],["林委員思銘：不敢承諾嘛！但是在不敢承諾的情況之下，我們看到過去我們有3次補助給台電，補助了3,000億，但是電價仍然調漲。"],["陳主計長淑姿：那是增資啦，不一樣。"],["林委員思銘：他還是在調漲電價嘛，為什麼會造成這樣一個結果？就是他的能源政策可能需要調整，否則買1度綠電，台電就虧損，這不是無底洞嗎？怎麼可能台電以後不靠補助呢？每次都要靠政府補助，補助之後又要調電價，這樣對嗎？所以我還是認為台電這一次的預算編列在這4,100億裡面，真的討論的空間很大，看怎麼樣來說服我們所有的立法委員，以上，謝謝。"],["主席（李委員坤城代）：謝謝林思銘委員。","下一位請羅明才委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":588,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","李彥秀","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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輛遊覽車就塞滿了，那個高度非常低矮。"],["柯委員志恩：我知道，但是，院長，你還有很多設計的玻璃屋，有些時候只是做了一個咖啡廳或是餐廳，這個東西到底有沒有辦法增加展覽的空間？已經很多人告訴你，如果你要增加咖啡廳，你們西側的流觴池前面跟土地公廟旁都有一大片土地，可以做一個非常具有規劃的空間，而且還可以結合曲水流觴的典故，跟很多文物呼應，所以我不斷地提醒，我們希望故宮未來像這樣的新式建築不要當作是歷史建築的殺手，這是非常重要的。"],["蕭院長宗煌：我跟委員報告一下，這樣的想法都只是大家的想像，因為故宮光是要從至善路做一個無障礙連通道……"],["柯委員志恩：好，院長，你說這個想像……"],["蕭院長宗煌：花了很多力氣，所以在土地公廟旁邊去蓋一個建築，那個是不可能的，因為下面那個下滑坡度很大，那個不可能。"],["柯委員志恩：院長，這些都是可以討論的空間，我只是提出有很多人跟我們陳情，大家還是很希望在這個設計還沒有成定案之前，能夠多多跟社會對話，這是我們所看到的，好不好？這是最重要的。","接下來我要問一下故宮裡面一些比較大的細節，因為跟這次預算還是有非常大的關聯。這次有關綜合規劃跟推廣行銷凍結了1,000萬，還包括勞務承攬。我不曉得院長，你是大小事都會關注，還是只關注大事？你對於故宮的員工申調、志工、勞務承攬等等，你關不關心？這些應該也是你關心的範圍。"],["蕭院長宗煌：大家都說故宮院長要管大事，不要管小事，可是我好像大小都管。"],["柯委員志恩：很好！我能問你一些比較小的事情，看看你有沒有真的管得通。故宮從1989年開始招募志工團隊，他們的素質非常高，很多時候都獲得全國績優的志工獎項，國家級的博物館應該有非常好的志工服務。我們看他們真的做很多導覽、服務、兒藝、教育，我也用路人甲的身分親自接受過故宮北院的服務，他們導覽層次真的是非常地高。現在特別要提到，北院只有409位志工，而南院目前也只有220位，就我的理解來說，南院的志工招募非常地困難，而且流失度非常地高，你看從第7期開始到目前為止只留下這一些志工。我就說北院是409位志工，南院是220位，而且南院的志工招募第7期目前留下126個；第8期雖然有一百多人參加徵選，但是面試跟筆試後，還能上線服務的剩下約四十多人，加上最近幾年離開的，你看這個簡報，我就不用再多說了，南院這樣招募志工的規模及狀況，目前只有220位志工，但是至少應該要有240位，人力調度非常困難，再加上之後週休要多休好幾天，你認為故宮南院招募志工困難的地方在哪裡？院長，你有去理解嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：第一個，當然是區位的關係，因為相較一下，我在高美館的時候有800個志工，那時候其他館舍沒有像高美館那樣的制度。故宮南院雖然有很好的館舍、很好的制度，可是因為它的區位問題，的確附近可以招的人，就是願意當志工的，我們都儘量招納……"],["柯委員志恩：還有啦！"],["蕭院長宗煌：甚至北部的人都會跑下去當志工。"],["柯委員志恩：但是你的人數還是一個不足的數字，因為北院說實在的……"],["蕭院長宗煌：有一個……"],["柯委員志恩：院長，你先聽完，我可以統一讓你回答。你看目前國家級的博物館，北院善用志工，但是南院很多的志工不是只做導覽，還幫你們做很多行政庶務，這個部分也有很多人特別提到。還有另一個部分，為什麼南院跟北院工作內容差這麼多？因為在第12期之前都沒有限定期限內一定要通過志工考試，南院儘管不是以雙語當作主軸，但是最晚到了第13期的時候才要求過導覽考核，所以南院從事管理志工到底是用什麼樣的樣態來做？我還是要提醒你們對於志工的態度上，還是有很多人跟本席這樣反映，包括志工做了非常多的時數，但是你們都以8小時計算，而且送給志工所謂的禮品，很多是過期的月曆、轉手的禮品，而且還出現在南院明令志工不得參加其他文化單位的記者會。因為時間的關係，等一下院長一併回答。還有包括勞務承攬人力，你看北院的薪資，我隨便舉一個空調管理的例子，南院跟北院平均薪資落差就差了28.2萬，北院所編的錢跟南院所編的錢，薪資反而是倒退，這都是我們算出來的。有關承攬人力的部分，南北院就差距這麼大，不要說是志工，光是你這些人力就是，所以大家就會覺得，雖然你剛剛跟我們講了非常多的困難點，可是數據會說話，顯然不管是在薪資層面或各方面的內容，大家會覺得南院就是比北院有一些相對的剝奪感。好，院長，你可以一起回應。"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，薪資的部分，講老實話，公務人員的薪資都是一樣的，可是基本上勞務承攬是不一樣的，為什麼？因為它是分開招標，分開招標薪水就會不一樣，因為我們只能規定地板，沒有辦法規定天花板，所以同樣情況在北部，他的生活開銷會比較高，當然成本會比較高，經費才會比較高。"],["柯委員志恩：院長，我還是要告訴你，很多人還是認為我所提到的第三項同工不同酬……"],["蕭院長宗煌：是。"],["柯委員志恩：大家一比較結果……雖然你有非常多的理由，但是我還是告訴你，為什麼很多時候故宮南院留不住人？事實上在克服先天因素之外，你們本來可以去掌握的、可以讓大家感受更好的，包括對志工友善的對待、對他們的態度等等之類，不管是時數的給予、紀念品的給予及他們所受的訓練，我覺得院長，這個部分你應該好好的……"],["蕭院長宗煌：志工的時數是依照志工法規定，超過的時數是不計算的，這是志工法的規定。我們很高興志工願意多來服務，可是因為依照法令規定只能計算多少時數，譬如像公務人員一天只能上班多少小時……"],["柯委員志恩：所以院長，你如果還是抱持這樣的說法的話，我告訴你南院的志工還是留不住啦！"],["蕭院長宗煌：我會去了解。"],["柯委員志恩：本席直指告訴你，現在就是有這些問題，院長，你只要告訴我如何能夠解決，而不是在辯駁你是根據志工法的規定、是根據什麼的規定。現在就已經呈現出這個問題，事實也證明是這樣，我覺得你應該根據我剛剛所提到的部分，告訴我如何能夠給他們更好的友善態度，這才是面對事情的方法。"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，我會親自跟南北院管理志工的同仁討論，看怎麼樣克服以及如何提升這樣的南北差距，因為南院的確有一個不一樣，我原來在高美館是分為展場志工跟導覽志工，導覽志工要經過展場一年經驗以後才能去考導覽志工。現在的情況是一來就要讓他當導覽志工，如果沒有考過的話，等於就沒有取得資格，這的確是個問題。"],["柯委員志恩：這些我們都知道，但是人家本來是要做導覽，你有沒有讓他們去做一些行政庶務？剛剛都已經告訴你，我都接到一些陳情了，並把這些事實狀況告訴院長。院長，就根據我剛剛所提到的一些問題，告訴我如何能夠讓南院的志工，大家有一個更符合公平對待的原則，這才是本席站在這地方質詢的最大目的，好不好？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，但是志工的話，不見得只有做導覽的才叫志工，因為本來就有很多可能的服務項目。"],["柯委員志恩：我們還要再繼續這樣下去嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，不要。"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員質詢，院長請回座。","接下來有請萬美玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-11","speakers":["葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","劉書彬","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","范雲","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國立故宮博物院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1144901_00003"}}},{"id":"161440","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161440","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d181fb4c11ac6d69231e581586c022403610eb4968b4ec7625612bf7ee431a5d15725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:29:02 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在它也對我們的政府、軍隊跟社會都進行全方位的滲透，是嗎？"],["黃副局長明昭：我想它對政府、軍隊跟社會都有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都有滲透？好，那我們來看一下，政府、軍隊、社會都成為它的滲透目標，包括竊取政府機密，舉發政要，包括組織內應，組織內應是不是都包括在內？包括宮廟及一些黑道組織，它都跟他們掛勾。"],["黃副局長明昭：都包括在裡面。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們往下看。請問一下，參與有共諜的組織，會不會觸犯國安法？因為我們現在的國安法寫得很清楚，會有什麼樣的人呢？包括發起、資助、主持、操縱、指揮跟發展組織，這些是主謀者，但是如果我被主謀者找去參與組織，我去參與鼓吹、去宣傳，我這樣的人會不會觸犯國安法？"],["黃副局長明昭：目前的法是沒有規範到參與者啦，所以這部分必須要補漏洞。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，要補漏洞。你看一個前陸軍上校向德恩簽降共承諾書，竟然是依收賄罪判處徒刑，這個漏洞希望趕快補起來！"],["黃副局長明昭：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛，那你們承諾什麼時候修法？"],["黃副局長明昭：這個我們會提供給權責部會來做修法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們再往下看。灰色地帶的介選會不會觸犯反滲透法？反滲透法當中有規定，不能夠來國內參與助選，但是有人說，我只要不提到候選人、沒有拉票，譬如說帶人去中國參訪，然後在那邊很明顯的暗示說要支持特定候選人，但是只要沒有辦法蒐證到說他有提到候選人或有沒有拉票，這樣就沒事了嗎？這樣會不會觸犯反滲透法？"],["黃副局長明昭：當然這個也會構成到反滲透法嘛。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們來看一下，這個是局長說的，他說我們的反滲透法第四條裡面有規定，任何人不得受滲透來源之指示、委託或資助，為總統副總統選舉罷免法第四十三條或公職人員選舉罷免法第四十五條各款行為，如：公開演講、贊成或反對罷免等等等，罷免宣傳、支持罷免、募款活動，這些內容都是屬於助選的行為，所謂的介選行為要怎麼認定？"],["黃副局長明昭：所謂介選，剛剛所提的部分，就是比方說到中國大陸去旅遊，支持……"],["鍾委員佳濱：接受資助？"],["黃副局長明昭：接受資助、落地接待等等，這些都是介選的一個手法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那有沒有在法律當中規定？要不要補？"],["黃副局長明昭：這個是有需要再補，更明確化一點。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，更明確化，兩個都是要補了。","再往下看，剛剛其實有委員關切學生自主報名，統戰落地招待怎麼管？過去如果是在國內辦的活動，他們帶團來，那我們會管，對不對？到我們國內來要管，在他們國家的境內，我們的學生去參加剛剛就一直在問的那些活動，請教副主委，剛剛翁委員的部分，請你繼續申論，你說這個有毒，這個不能吃。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那現在問題來了，學生怎麼判斷這個有沒有毒啊？詐騙廣告，網路上很多廣告都可能有詐騙啊，但是一旦我們發現詐騙之後，會讓它下架嘛，那陸委會有沒有在接受這樣的檢舉或諮詢，了解對岸有哪些貌似教育交流活動含有統戰這樣的毒素，我們要提醒我們的學子，不要去參加，有沒有這樣的一個機制？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：有，跟委員報告，基本上，現在翁委員已經不在了，但是我剛剛非常想要講一句話，就是把兩岸交流現在受到影響歸責於我方，是非常不公平的事情，因為真正要改變現狀、滲透對方的，一直都是在中共，不是在臺灣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：不過翁委員已經不在了。","回答一下佳濱的這個問題，陸委會確實是有提醒，就是相關的一些交流活動，譬如說，不只是落地接待，他如果刻意要去參訪一些紅色供應鏈，甚至是要去參訪一些要讓他們來實習，有加入這樣子的內容的話，我們都會把它的警戒提高，來讓學生知道或者讓交流方知道，這個很有可能就是帶有統戰意涵的一個交流團體。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，因為時間的關係，既然我是最後一個質詢，我就做個結論。這樣的方向很好，但是要可以參考一些機制，在美國國務院，它會對它的美國公民發布海外旅遊警訊燈號，它會視這些國家的狀況，提醒美國公民去這個國家要小心，陸委會可不可以發展這樣的指標？針對中國境內特地要來臺灣招攬學生去做教育交流的，你們給它一個燈號的警示，讓學生要去接受……因為學生的判斷能力有限，師長也要知道這些資訊，你們建立一個燈號的風險管制指標，讓大家可以去判斷，這種是去了之後回來才發現不對，好不好？所以第一，請陸委會盤點國安法第二條的疏漏樣態，在一個月內擬具修法來向本委員會報告，可以嗎？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請國安局、調查局和陸委會因應新型態的介選樣態提出定義，一個月內也提出報告，可以嗎？國安局，可以嘛？"],["黃副局長明昭：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後，請陸委會協同教育部，對於大學端來參與協助中國的統戰活動，擬具因應的措施，包括我剛剛說的，透過一個燈號的警示，讓學生可以提高警覺、讓家長可以防止孩子被統戰，可以嗎？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：沒有問題，謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝副主委，謝謝副局長，也謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","有關於我們委員會（外委會）跟本委員會，大家都有一定的質詢時間，本席在主持會議的時候，都會多給大家一些發言的時間，但是發言時間還是有限的，因為每一位委員其實都有非常多的行程在後面，所以我希望我們委員會當中，大家還是可以彼此尊重，不是不讓大家發言，其實都有多給時間，這個是本席要多做解釋的部分。","已登記質詢之委員，除不在場者外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。委員口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復，委員另約定期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，散會，謝謝大家，辛苦了。","散會（11時36分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-14","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","李坤城","林憶君","馬文君","張雅琳","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、海洋委員會、大陸委員會、法務部調查局報告「中國複合式威脅對我國家安全\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145001_00012"}}},{"id":"161439","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161439","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d181bfb9168c7ffa5899581586c022403610eb4968b4ec762561c299908bd24946c85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:17:58 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諜，我覺得這是非常不對、非常不負責任的！更何況，副主委還有國安局局長過去也是一樣擔任學者，常常就到大陸去，據我了解，他甚至還有兄弟都是在大陸當商人的……"],["主席：翁委員，你已經超過很多時間了，請你遵守我們委員會的時間。"],["翁委員曉玲：召委，我覺得你不尊重我！","所以我認為，這個部分不要認為你們不會被統戰……"],["主席：請你也尊重委員會。"],["翁委員曉玲：但是你們去質疑別人可能會被統戰，同樣的，大家都有相同的民主跟法治素養，不會被統戰、不會那麼容易被統戰！如果從你們的起訴人數、已經判決真的是共諜的判決確定人數來看，比例非常、非常低！"],["主席：鍾佳濱委員已經到現場了，請你尊重一下委員會的時間。"],["翁委員曉玲：以上希望國安局跟陸委會都能夠再提供給我一個詳細的報告，謝謝。"],["主席：有請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-14","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","李坤城","林憶君","馬文君","張雅琳","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、海洋委員會、大陸委員會、法務部調查局報告「中國複合式威脅對我國家安全\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145001_00012"}}},{"id":"161438","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161438","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d181525b8f3584f1a1e606b4d24be0a63beceb4968b4ec762561f28e73f90c575f8f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:08:17 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多沒有效率啊！不可思議，我們聽到都會覺得不可思議，部長用猜的是猜兩天啦……"],["洪部長申翰：我是說如果用AI以後會大幅縮短到接近兩天。"],["林委員淑芬：OK，現在導入ATS，以AI技術進行履歷的掃描和分析，可以在初步階段就初篩符合條件的應徵者，節省很多時間、節省很多人資，而且確保篩選標準的一致性，只有分數超過門檻的履歷才會送到人資的手上，進行第二階段或是下一階段，這個就是ATS，但是ATS主要是以英文履歷為主。","但是我舉這個例子，主要不是要講ATS，我是要講AI的技術正在改變招募和人才管理的生態，所以我一直在講整個典範要轉移，可是這麼大的一個問題，大家思考的很廣喔！企業人資作業導入e化的比例在逐年成長，AI技術取代了過去的人事行政管理，包括薪酬管理、數位化的線上學習平臺，人資的管理系統會導入自動化來處理員工數據，像是員工的入職、離職、休假、申請等程序，同時人事行政管理的數位化也提供了管理階層即時的數據分析，讓管理階層有好的運用，管理階層可以更了解員工的需求和行為。AI會蒐集大量的員工數據來進行分析預測，讓企業發現管理面的潛在問題，所以相對於沒有AI的時代，它可以很精準地訂出培訓計畫、薪酬政策，符合員工的期待，提升員工的滿意度和留任率，當然更可能會讓老闆很滿意。所以我們才問說AI技術能夠取代人資作業的項目還有哪些？部長，你覺得呢？沒思考過？其實我以前也沒思考過。"],["洪部長申翰：應該是說我們在跟……"],["林委員淑芬：你可以讓旁邊的幕僚講，沒關係。"],["洪部長申翰：因為我來我們部裡面以後，其實我們也跟滿多人資在做進一步的座談，他們都跟我們講到他們現在確實大幅地在使用更多的AI工具，滿多在跟我們討論的時候是談到訓練的問題，包括一些招募的問題，也談到可能會產生的招募偏見。"],["林委員淑芬：沒關係，我要問你的是接下來人資管理上要面臨什麼挑戰？我問你最簡單的，現在有多少比例的企業已經導入AI的人資管理模式、運用AI，你有沒有做過調查和統計？你有沒有了解這些數據？大企業有多少已經在使用AI做人資的管理？"],["洪部長申翰：這部分我們確實還沒有去做統計，可是我們有觀察到這個現象已經在發生。"],["林委員淑芬：我有一份來自於勞動部台灣就業通的統計資料「2024AI世代求才條件大調查」讓就業通的會員、你們自己網站上的會員去填寫，回收樣本數578份，整理後有效的樣本數是533份，有3%企業已經使用AI作為面試的輔助工具來徵才，而有34.3%的企業考慮未來要使用，如果把統計範圍擴大到全臺，如果這個樣本算是精準的話，擴及到全臺的所有企業，你會發現使用普及率可能相當、相當地高，是現在進行式，已經使用AI面試工具在徵選人才。而AI這麼普遍化的使用，對於市場的挑戰會有很多面向，以就業市場來看，我要問部長，問題會是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：委員剛剛說的那個數據其實應該是在台灣就業通上面的統計，可是我自己認為實際上的數據可能甚至比在就業通上面的數據來得更高。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦，但我要問你的是，這麼廣泛、這麼高比例的使用，對就業市場的挑戰是什麼？它可能會產生的問題是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們現在有幾個議題也正在討論，第一個，這會有產生員工監控的問題，包括隱私權的問題，包括在AI的使用裡面，它可能會不斷地複製跟加深某些主流的偏見或刻板意見的問題，這些會在AI裡面發生。我們看到，如果大量用這樣子的AI工具來招募的話，看起來很方便或是時間會縮短，甚至減少很多人資資源的投入，可是它反而會複製這些事情，這是大家比較擔心的事情。"],["林委員淑芬：沒錯，AI的人資管理系統提升了效率，但它存在這些弊端，其模式都是由既有資料庫的檔案所訓練的，AI的資料庫數據作為評斷的標準，雖然很有效，可是不要忘了，這麼多的數據，如果數據本身就存在著對於性別、年齡有相當的偏見和喜好，你餵它的數據本身就存在這些偏見和喜好，篩選的時候，它就會有不公平的狀況產生。所以這些偏見、喜好會排除掉不在偏好範圍內的履歷，這些履歷可能就會直接被淘汰掉了。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["林委員淑芬：所以AI是訓練了，可是你的data本身存在歧視偏見、存在特殊喜好，如果你是它歧視的、如果你是它所偏見的、如果你不是它特殊喜好的，在這種狀況裡面，在關鍵字匹配篩選的時候，好的履歷但關鍵字不符合，可能就被排除在外了。你知道他們的偏見最大、最主要的主流觀點的喜好和偏見歧視會產生在哪幾個變項嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：就我知道是性別跟年齡。"],["林委員淑芬：沒錯，性別跟年齡。所以面對這個問題，你們剛才回答說要訂出三個指引，因應AI時代的來臨，使用AI作為面試工具，對人資管理的影響這麼大，會對於性別、年齡的歧視這麼嚴重，請問你們訂了三個指引是什麼樣的指引？來，司長來回答沒關係。"],["王司長厚誠：跟委員報告，其中一個指引是就業歧視的部分；第二個指引是隱私權保護的部分；第三個是在勞資關係裡面使用AI上的指引。"],["林委員淑芬：好，我想大家想的最基本的都是一樣的，就是人資部門經常處理敏感的員工資訊，如身分證字號、薪資明細、銀行帳戶，如果缺乏嚴格的資料保護規範和防範機制，可能會被濫用而且會外流、外洩，如果你要使用AI，相對資訊安全的程度，你要課責於企業什麼責任？在美國、歐盟的法令都要求，如果使用自動聘僱決策工具，要做資訊揭露、企業招募、勞動管理、績效評估、離職預測管理、解僱上都會衍生風險。你用了這麼多的數據，每一個被蒐集資訊的人當然要有知情權、要有同意權，要告知而且取得每個人同意。所以綜合這些看法，我們要釐清AI真實使用的情形對勞動者產生的影響，還有一個不要忘了，AI的監控，企業在資料的蒐集和監測，已經可能導致過度干預員工的個人隱私，造成員工心理上的不良反應，現在新型態的遠端監測控制技術，透過追蹤員工在電腦螢幕前和鍵盤活動，計算員工投入的時間、衡量他的生產力，像是StaffCop、Teramind、Hubstaff、CleverControl還有Time Doctor，企業廣泛使用監控員工螢幕的軟體系統，追蹤員工的電腦螢幕、分析被監控的員工，以利於主管評估員工的工作效率，這一些要怎麼管理？你們想過了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：林委員，這個部分其實剛才我有說這會衍生員工監控問題的控制……"],["林委員淑芬：你們剛剛的3個指引，沒有涉及到這一部分。"],["洪部長申翰：是，其實就是相關監控跟數據控制所帶來隱私的部分，所以切入點會比較是……"],["林委員淑芬：但是你們的3個指引都沒有關係到我剛剛講的這個問題。"],["洪部長申翰：它比較是跟隱私這個部分高度相關的。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊，所以你們3個指引是不夠的，還有這方面要怎麼處理？"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以針對3個指引的範疇來看……"],["林委員淑芬：再來，第二，AI的運用在勞資關係上被討論最多的重點是道德倫理的問題，尤其是將AI導入工作職場通常是組織的高層片面做決定，在導入前沒有跟員工討論，所以最主要還是在勞資溝通和協商上，如何成為AI導入和必須運用的路徑？我們講勞資協商，可是AI工具偏偏就是沒有勞資協商，它破壞了企業裡面最核心我們普遍認為企業的經營管理是需要更多的、更大量的勞資共管、共同協議的。可是你在組織內AI的運用，相對的弱化勞資溝通和共識，這部分破壞我們要往前進的勞資關係的協調、溝通、共識、協商，而且是走回頭路的，要怎麼因應？"],["洪部長申翰：確實AI的使用在勞資關係裡面，尤其是在導入前後有沒有經過勞資協商的同意，這是接下來在勞資關係裡面一個很大的挑戰，所以也是為什麼我們有一個指引在處理這件事情的原因。"],["林委員淑芬：你們的指引有處理到這個程序嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：是，就是處理這件事情。"],["林委員淑芬：好，我現在講你們還有一個委託研究報告，就是提到對於AI技術在勞動市場的實際應用進行研究和數據的蒐集，在法制面要建立指引，其實就職場AI的使用目前是沒有規範，你們未來要訂指引嘛！再來，在個人數據方面，我剛剛講要有知情權、要得到每一個人的同意權，然後要告知這些都是使用AI在管理的。第三個，現有的隱私保護措施是不足的，剛剛有討論過要不要有外部監督機制？剛剛講的是，你有指引但是僅限於企業內部的監督，我們需不需要引進外部的監督？我們需不需要訂出法律上的處分、罰則？沒有罰則等於有指引也沒用，指引只有道德上的規勸，沒有處罰的罰則等於形同虛設，法律配套是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：相關在法規面的部分，我們都願意一併來盤點跟檢討，就是怎麼讓這個指引……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，我知道其實你也不知道啦！我也不是很知道啦！我今天的質詢是要告訴你這件事情很嚴重，衝擊到整個企業界內部的人資管理、衝擊到勞資關係、衝擊到相當相當大的勞動市場，對勞動者的偏見歧視，其實對中高齡勞工很不利，在性別上的歧視也一樣不利。所以我現在告訴你，你要開始花更多時間投入更多資源，在法制面、在執行面真的要好好思考。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：好，謝謝林委員，也謝謝部長，這個確實要快速因應。","接下來請王正旭委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":560,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","郭國文","廖偉翔","陳瑩","楊曜","范雲"],"page_start":447,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算決議有關勞動部主管預算凍結報告案 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by就對了？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，因為不確定性的因素還是蠻多的。"],["李委員坤城：好。對於臺灣跟美國的談判，美國財政部長日前提到臺灣有非常好的建議，我想請教一下部長，美國財政部長所講的這個臺灣非常好的建議，據你了解大概是哪一些？"],["莊部長翠雲：對於他所說的「非常好的提議」，當然，我不知道他具體指的是什麼，但是5月1號我們由鄭副院長率團，包含我們的談判總代表楊珍妮政委都去了美國，我想他們在初步第一步的協商過程當中，應該彼此有做很好的交流。"],["李委員坤城：談判的方向呢？當然具體的東西不談，如果單就方向來說，部長，你知道大概是哪些方向讓美國覺得臺灣的提議還不錯，比如說我們的關稅大概是從……總統已經講了，我們可以從零開始來談嘛，所以我想知道到底方向是怎麼樣，可以讓美國覺得臺灣政府提出來的提議還不錯？我覺得有一個方向出來，也讓我們的企業界有信心。"],["莊部長翠雲：大的方向，不管是總統也好、院長也好或是副院長都有提到，第一個就是會為國家爭取最好的待遇，第二個就是要維持產業的競爭力，這是基本的前提。同時，對於違規轉運的部分，我們會加強力道來查緝，我想這是一個很正向的說明。"],["李委員坤城：除了這些之外呢？這些我大概都知道，我是問有沒有比較具體的東西，可以讓臺灣的企業界對於我們現在的談判更有信心？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想相關的一些細節，在談判的過程當中，應該雙方都有默契不會對外去宣達。"],["李委員坤城：就是說在7月之前，我們還會繼續跟美國再談下去吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：我相信應該會，5月1號只是第一輪，是的。"],["李委員坤城：好，OK，謝謝部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席（李委員彥秀代）：謝謝，我們結束李坤城委員的質詢。","接下來請林思銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":588,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","李彥秀","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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AI技術結合到中小學課程，中小學課程提出了AI加STEAM的教學，也搭配一個百萬學子的參訪計畫，讓學生能夠寓教於樂。這個方向我一定支持，但是我想請問一下更具體的幾個問題，能不能來幫我們做一些解答？這些AI的教案目前是只有在館內參訪才能夠體驗嗎？還是能夠整理成教材，提供給老師在課堂上使用或者是線上可以下載？"],["蕭院長宗煌：資料本來就是線上可以下載，可是下載的資料當然還是要有人引導會比較方便，未來也可以透過AI用虛擬人物引導，基本上，它是有可能的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，這個部分也麻煩一下，我們總不能為了這個教材，特別送老師來培訓，所以能夠用AI人物……"],["蕭院長宗煌：事實上，我們是找老師來培訓，就是多元的，第一個，我們一定要養成種子教師，然後種子教師才可以去推廣。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我懂你的意思，種子教師數量也是有限，你說要所有中小學老師都來學這一門課程，然後來做種子教師，有難度啦！基本自己的課綱、該學的東西也都還要再積極面對，所以我覺得有所謂的虛擬老師、虛擬人物來教學的話，這個部分也是很好的。","故宮做這些教案有沒有透過教育部，或者是各縣市教育局、學校正式推廣？我在我的選區辦活動的時候，也有諮詢過一些民眾，好像還是有很多小朋友跟老師不太知道故宮有這個故宮線上學校。"],["蕭院長宗煌：的確我們是有透過地方教育局推廣，基本上來講，大部分的活動……"],["羅委員廷瑋：臺中有嗎？臺中很多人說不了解。"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們同仁說會發文請臺中的老師來報名，那就表示沒有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那就是沒做嘛！"],["蕭院長宗煌：臺中沒有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以今天我具體給一個建議，是不是能夠請教育部或者是你們跟臺中市教育局合作，由教育局推廣，甚至是幫忙協助？"],["蕭院長宗煌：這個部分看看同仁有沒有問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：可以吧？你剛剛都已經說拜託所有委員粉絲專頁幫你分享了，那你怎麼不發個公文，叫教育局幫忙處理協助宣導？這部分應該也不用花到很多錢吧？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，沒有問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好不好？我最後要講的是，如果後續這個做成了，也希望要蒐集教師跟學生的回饋跟評估數據，未來作為優化AI的一個重要方案，這個好嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：可以，沒有問題！"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，拜託發文教育部、教育局、各縣市政府來幫忙協助，也請我們的同仁幫忙協助。院長，你也有答應我。"],["蕭院長宗煌：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員質詢，官員請回座。","接下來有請柯志恩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-11","speakers":["葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","劉書彬","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","范雲","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國立故宮博物院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1144901_00003"}}},{"id":"161435","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161435","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d1813b8b058c5c2a455d581586c022403610eb4968b4ec762561e6f0bca3cc8d690d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:08:08 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可以在我們場內提出、拿出任何有關於臺灣的紙牌或是應援的小物，即都不可以提到臺灣，甚至我們在場內、見面會裡面看到他們放了一個宣傳物，就是黃色框出來的部分，裡面直接寫了「中國臺灣近五年來愛情電影的票房冠軍」，在你們的認定裡，這是不是一個文化統戰？"],["黃副局長明昭：當然，這是一個很標準的文化統戰。"],["張委員雅琳：接下來我們應該如何防堵呢？這個可能要請、陸委會跟國安局都簡單說明一下，就是我們要如何來防堵這件事情？"],["黃副局長明昭：國安局的部分針對這種手法都會予以蒐集，然後會移給……"],["張委員雅琳：國安局是不是可以開始派人來見面會或是演唱會的現場來看呢？因為這可能是過去你們不會去注意到的一個漏洞。"],["黃副局長明昭：這個我們也會派人去做一個關注。"],["張委員雅琳：好，不要只有蒐集，到底要怎麼抓到這個人也還是滿重要的，甚至現在大家開始擔心了，因為中國團一起進來了，他們會不會開始比方說跟偶像大喊：歡迎來到中國臺北站！所以這個可能真的一定要派人進去，不然其實沒有辦法抓，畢竟他參加完就走了，對不對？陸委會對這件事情請簡單做個表態、做個說明。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：基本上，針對場佈的部分，是不是可以先進行事前的了解跟場勘，我們有討論過是不是要派人過去，這個我們還在檢討中。","再來第二個，如果真的在現場發現有不當口號、標語的話，只要有具體事證，譬如說有人有錄音錄影的話，我們可能就會馬上請這個當事人出境。"],["張委員雅琳：錄音錄影有時候有點困難，但是這個東西是有一個檢舉管道，對嗎？如果可以的話，是可以有檢舉管道，而這個檢舉管道是不是也可以做個宣傳呢？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：檢舉管道應該就是他們可能可以透過我們陸委會的信箱來做檢舉。"],["張委員雅琳：OK。接下來，我想還是要讓大家知道一下，就是這些追星人，尤其像泰百的這一次，他們這麼愛這個偶像，這個愛其實是非常非常的深刻，他們好不容易等到見面會，可是他們現在做什麼事情？他們現在是集體透過自己的力量，用自己的力量去抵制，不去參加這個見面會，他們不去買這個見面會的門票，這就很像大家很瘋十二強棒球賽，卻因為它可能會矮化我們的國家，所以我們決定放棄，可見他們對國家的愛是這麼的堅定，他們沒有一刻不想要看到他們的偶像，但是比起這份渴望，他們更想守護的是我們的國家，所以這一群認為自己是追星人之前應先是臺灣人的粉絲，我們絕對不能放他們孤單，我們要跟他們一起，好嗎？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是，謝謝委員的指教，非常好的idea，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請翁曉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-14","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","李坤城","林憶君","馬文君","張雅琳","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、海洋委員會、大陸委員會、法務部調查局報告「中國複合式威脅對我國家安全\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145001_00012"}}},{"id":"161434","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161434","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d181c35cef50231c6ae2139dba296d6b924feb4968b4ec76256110cd3a5187eac2bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:01:50 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為減少衝擊做一些努力，可是確實這個法的修法通過，對於這些重症的家庭來講，就我們目前的預判來看，還是會產生衝擊的。"],["劉委員建國：是衝擊還是窒礙？"],["洪部長申翰：我們認為會先有衝擊。"],["劉委員建國：最後就變成窒礙難行？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：是不是這樣？我要提醒啦，好不好？部長，因為你剛剛特別提到很多面向你都必須要去做應變嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：人力的培訓、行政上的一些措施，然後還有外籍看護來源國的供給。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：然後還有需求者提出了相關的這些，包括輕症的、重症的、正常的、亞健康的，對於這樣的需求你們有評估過嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：目前是有推估……"],["劉委員建國：譬如說在7月下旬開始實施的時候，你面對到提出申請的量對照過去平均量可能會增加多少的差異？"],["洪部長申翰：我們目前推估是可能會在很快的速度裡面，可能會增加也許10萬這樣的量。"],["劉委員建國：對照以前的量，差異是差了幾倍以上？"],["洪部長申翰：這個增加的幅度當然很大，但是我只是說，這個所謂的很快，不一定是在那個當下馬上就會來，可是我們認為它增加的速度會很快。"],["劉委員建國：你們足以因應？"],["洪部長申翰：現在就是在為因應或者減少衝擊做整備。"],["劉委員建國：我希望是這樣啦，希望你們不要執行不到1個月時間就產生了很多不可逆的傷害啦，這會讓人民百姓對這個政策產生很大的挑戰跟疑慮，他們會認為不是80歲以上就已經可以免巴氏量表了，那為什麼這麼難申請？這個政策的使然，執行單位要如何去因應、要如何去說明？這個你們有沒有想過？"],["洪部長申翰：當然現在都是在做規劃，可是確實它一開始出來的量我們預計到會很大，那在原本21萬看護工的比例裡面，其實它的幅度真的是很大的，這就是我們說的那個衝擊，而可能會衝擊到重症，確實可能會有一些想要來申請的民眾，他從提出申請到獲得許可，時間上面可能會在一開始的時候……"],["劉委員建國：那我就簡單請教部長，衝擊到重症，你如何因應？"],["洪部長申翰：當然我們現在在因應的就是如何把重症跟這個部分給分流，其實我們現在陸陸續續都聽到很多重症家庭看護工已經表達，他們未來是不是有機會可以到比較輕症的或者是80歲以上免巴氏量表的這些亞健康家庭裡面去工作？其實這樣的聲音已經陸陸續續出來，這是我們很擔心的地方。"],["劉委員建國：7月下旬你們就要實施了嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["劉委員建國：現在已經5月中旬了，不到兩個月的時間，我希望你可能要做好萬事的具備啦。","第二件事情我再請教部長，昨天我也在這個委員會請教過彭部長，彭部長有提出相關的一些計畫跟報告，根據環境部所發布綠領人才就業的趨勢報告，2024平均每月徵求2.2萬名的綠領人才，8年它的飆速成長會達到3.29倍，會直追AI人才的缺口，甚至還會超越，甚至還會超越喔！彭部長也這樣認為，他說未來隨著法規趨嚴，國際減碳的壓力升高，預估未來5年內，綠領職缺將有1到3倍的成長空間，市場對於具備碳管理與減排知識的人才需求持續增加，所以環境部在今年3月成立了淨零綠領人才的培育聯盟，在北、中、南、東四個區成立區域培育中心，結合國內的大專院校，讓民眾可以就近的來接受淨零綠領人才培訓的課程。4月26號就已經啟動了第一班，在臺師大，第一班的學員平均年齡是37歲，社會人士有八成以上，具碩士學位以上的達到73%，學員的職業有工程師、業務人員、行政助理、會計、總務等等等，顯示勞工群組對這樣的課程有高度的興趣，而且願意進修，但是勞動部在這個部分好像跟環境部目前相關的課程都還沒有進行對接。"],["洪部長申翰：應該是環境部有相關的課程，勞務部也有相關的課程，我們接下來預計在這些課程或者是合作辦訓上面要來進行合作。"],["劉委員建國：我時間有限，我昨天問彭部長的時候，他是這麼答復我啦，我請教他「部長，這個對失業的勞工有沒有很大的幫助啦？」，彭部長回答我那是非常大的幫助，就是這樣。可是你們勞動部又有一項產業人才投資計畫的資源，可以補助勞工參訓80%到100%的訓練費用，每人在三年內最高可以補助到10萬塊。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：這個部分，貴部跟環境部也有對談喔，也談了4次了。"],["洪部長申翰：之前有談過，可是我們……"],["劉委員建國：談了4次了。"],["洪部長申翰：其實在近期我會跟彭部長會面，我們會針對……就是變成……"],["劉委員建國：不是近期啦，你們明天就要見面了嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是、是、是。"],["劉委員建國：你們底下的幕僚可以談了4次，然後你們的勞發署主秘跟我講說錢不是問題，是相關細節還沒有談妥。"],["洪部長申翰：是，我們還要再討論，因為這包括要跟民間團體進行一些合作。"],["劉委員建國：我是覺得這個速度有點慢了啦，這樣的因應作為是有點不太及格啦，談了4次，錢沒有問題，細節還談不出來！然後你的近期是明天就要見面了，那是不是明天就可以談出來？因為你們兩個在部會中也算是中青輩的，應該在行動力及智慧上都是非常高的，所以速度應該可以加強……"],["洪部長申翰：我們也希望能夠擴大合作，現在我們是希望能夠擴大合作，而且其實有些資源我們不希望重複浪費，所以這個合作或互相的支援，我覺得是有必要的。"],["劉委員建國：彭部長答應我1個星期內應該就可以跟你談出來了，那你能不能一併答應？"],["洪部長申翰：可以啊。"],["劉委員建國：可以？好，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：他說1個星期，是不是？"],["劉委員建國：對，沒有錯，所以在這邊講話都不能有絲毫的虛假跟作為。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：那大家就都是1個星期。好，謝謝。","然後勞動部在5月4號又有一篇新聞報導是這麼講，臺灣少子化趨勢越來越明顯，為補足勞動力缺口，勞動部鎖定中高齡族群，訂定未來4年，就是今年開始為期4年目標，每年要增加12萬中高齡及高齡者續留或重返職場，換言之，4年要增加48萬中高齡勞動大軍。你這48萬怎麼來？怎麼推估的？給部長看一個計畫，勞動部目前規劃是若雇主繼續僱用屆齡退休勞工，勞動部會提供雇主前6個月每人每月補助1.3萬，第7到18個月補助到每月1.5萬，部分工時每小時發給70到80元，最高25.8萬，要繼續僱用高齡者促進經驗傳承與世代合作，對不對？沒有錯嘛！"],["劉組長玉儀：是。"],["劉委員建國：這是其一嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["劉委員建國：多少人？這個目前補助多少人？已經在執行了，你們4年要增加到48萬，一年就要12萬，這個項目裡面目前為止執行了多少人數？"],["劉組長玉儀：目前要增加每年重返職場的中高齡12萬的目標，去年度113年有達到12萬5,000人重返職場。"],["劉委員建國：12萬5,000人就超標了？"],["劉組長玉儀：是，達到目標。"],["劉委員建國：那我要給你肯定嘛！"],["劉組長玉儀：但是在執行相關的就業促進津貼措施，因為相關的就業促進津貼措施有一些相關的條件，還有補助的一些內容及資格……"],["劉委員建國：我知道你們有很多項目、很多計畫，去年有達標，對不對？"],["劉組長玉儀：但是就業津貼的部分仍在持續加強，因為……"],["劉委員建國：你們就業津貼補助多少人數？"],["劉組長玉儀：以55歲以上的就業促進津貼獎勵措施，去年度是執行1,050人。"],["劉委員建國：1,050人？"],["劉組長玉儀：去年度，但是他是55歲以上……"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！55歲嘛！"],["劉組長玉儀：對。"],["劉委員建國：現在你們自己講48萬中高齡勞動大軍，然後這個計畫裡面才一千多人？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，我們希望讓中高齡能夠重新進入到職場的數字是有，可是我們在發出相關獎補助的人數確實是比較少，這部分我也請新任的署長針對此必須做出檢討。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你再聽我再講一個計畫──補助雇主繼續僱用高齡者的預計補助，這是在114年度就安基金裡面要動用一個「辦理特定對象就業促進津貼及相關僱用獎助津貼」的6.85億，是這麼寫嘛！預計補助一樣是一千多人，1,498人我們估且算1,500嘛！然後補助雇主僱用退休高齡者傳承專業技術及經驗38家、補助雇主辦理勞工退休後再就業準備協助措施有30家，編了2.74億嘛！沒有錯嘛！對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["劉委員建國：如果又以這一項來加總，坦白講，其實一年1,500人，4年也才6,000人，也占你48萬人的1.6%而已。"],["洪部長申翰：對，所以我們相關編列經費的資源，其執行率確實是有需要檢討的地方。"],["劉委員建國：45歲到65歲的中高齡除了失業還有失能外，本來還在職場，如果依照內政部的資料應該是每年約有幾十萬65歲屆齡退休高齡人口，尤其今年跟明年是退休潮的高峰。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["劉委員建國：怎麼讓他們屆齡之後還留在職場？然後從你的預算面向顯示基本上是很衝突的，落差值是非常大的。"],["劉組長玉儀：是，我們的雇主繼續僱用高齡者的獎勵措施，目的就是希望屆齡的勞工朋友能夠職場續航，然後延緩退休，所以這支計畫主要就是希望能夠補助繼續僱用的高齡者，鼓勵雇主進用，那我們今年度會持續加強來推動，以增加補助人數。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你聽我在跟他對話，你應該知道我要點出什麼問題。"],["洪部長申翰：知道。"],["劉委員建國：好，第三個，時間超過很多，對不起。一樣在就安基金裡面有編列一個辦理繼續僱用高齡者及中高齡者的相關補助業務，但是只編列二千多萬，同時又辦理55歲以上的壯世代，這個壯世代名稱你們還是要繼續用嗎？就業促進獎勵措施預計補助3,000人，然後匡列了1.35億。"],["洪部長申翰：跟劉委員說明，關於壯世代3個字，因為這個名詞是去年在預算編列的時候，但是我們其實有說，未來接下來在勞動部的計畫裡面，我們會把壯世代這3個字……因為這個名詞的使用比較爭議，可是事情我們會繼續做，但是這3個字的使用我們會來做修正。剛剛講到，確實我們在這幾支計畫裡面，相關預算的執行我都認為是有很大必須改進的空間。"],["劉委員建國：很大必須改進的空間嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：執行上是不是有執行障礙？"],["洪部長申翰：包括我們可能一些條件的設定、包括對象的設定、包括條件的設定，包括我們要怎麼樣來協助這些需要幫助的中高齡朋友可以走完，最後能夠達到政策的目標，這部分都是請發展署，也不只這個計畫，我剛才說我們會做一個整體的總體檢。"],["劉委員建國：好，部長就很清楚問題的所在了嘛！對不對？這個有一點算是非常破碎嘛！3個年齡群組的資源基本上是非常的分散。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：而且也不集中，然後整個補助好像看起來很零碎，如果要做整個統計的資料，其實是會被挑戰的。"],["洪部長申翰：或者互相會有競合，然後會互相影響效益，其實這些事情我們都有發現，所以這個檢討不是檢討單一支計畫，是要做整體的檢討，甚至要不要做計畫的整併。"],["劉委員建國：那就正確了，我就是希望部長回答這句話，所以這樣我就要要求勞動部一週內針對「淨零綠領人才培育課程」同時可以研議勞工進修及失業勞工的補助計畫，這是其一。其二是針對促進高齡者續留或重返職場計畫，勞動部應該提出更具體的留參數據及方案，也希望一週內可以提出檢討方案。最後是協助45歲到65歲的資源應該是要集中共用，吸引65歲以上的退休勞工重返職場的資源也必須要再擴大增加，但是這個必須要重新盤點，先去了解各個計畫的執行狀態，才有辦法誠如部長剛剛講的，把問題點出來之後再做修正、調整。"],["洪部長申翰：劉委員，針對這三點，第一點，沒有問題，我們會來規劃。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：但是第二點確實需要多一點時間，因為我剛才說它不是單一支計畫的檢討，它可能是整個相關的計畫都需要一併檢討，所以真的需要多一點時間。"],["劉委員建國：時間給部長講。"],["洪部長申翰：3個月好不好？"],["劉委員建國：不要吧！"],["洪部長申翰：3個月。"],["劉委員建國：你的行動力……"],["洪部長申翰：計畫真的很多，我是請他們做總體檢，因為新的署長上來以後，我是請他針對這些就業計畫做總體檢，所以確實需要的時間會比較多，也希望比較周全。"],["劉委員建國：好，3個月就3個月，應部長所講。","最後一點應該也沒有多大問題吧？"],["洪部長申翰：是，我們就是針對這個方向來做檢討。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":560,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","郭國文","廖偉翔","陳瑩","楊曜","范雲"],"page_start":447,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算決議有關勞動部主管預算凍結報告案 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我在這裡也要跟大家澄清，故宮博物院的大都會展覽是從6月展到10月，10月之後會卸展，屆時會清理展場。接著我們在12月份會推出兩個展覽，一個是陶瓷的主題策展「陶樣」，另外一個是「會心不遠」的玉器主題策展，所以它並不是休館，而是展場展完之後就是要休息一下，然後重新整理，包括有一些地方都要優化，因為新的展館如果開放使用，未來就是一路下去，不可能停止。但是就故宮來講，因為今年的預算被刪減，多一個展場就要多一份人力，那邊從此就要有服務人員、要有志工，然後整個維護都要運作，因為經費被刪減，當然會捉襟見肘，這個部分的確如此，也不能說絕對沒有影響，如果絕對沒有影響的話，那麼刪預算就是剛剛好而已，所以當然是會有影響。我昨天開主管會議時也開玩笑在講，現在又多放了五天假，多放五天假，大家都希望故宮天天開館，天天開館並不是故宮不願意，而是我的人力排不出來啊！因為多放了五天假，同仁就多了五天休假的權利，你要他來上班，不是加班費的問題，而是根本假都排不出來，所以除非增加人力，要不然對我們來講那個壓力會更大。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以我們希望故宮未來要更積極的跟立法院不同黨派的委員爭取支持，因為故宮是臺灣的門面，我們希望你們的營運可以順暢，但是也要好好的照顧同仁，不要說大家總是在捉襟見肘的情況下努力的為臺灣在拚命。其實大家真的很關心新故宮計畫，因為這次的刪減當中，包括設備及投資也被刪了一億多元，我們擔心影響到整建的進度。原先新故宮計畫是預計116年要整建完成，今年應該是要提出修復再利用計畫，請問目前進度為何？"],["蕭院長宗煌：修復再利用計畫因為現在是送到臺北市政府，由文資委員會排審，目前的話，大概是9月、10月中間，確定的日期他們還沒有提出來。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，目前照你們的評估，116年有沒有辦法如期完成呢？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為前面的審查，包括從我來到現在，等於是兩年的時間都在審查，所以勢必正館的整修會有一點點延遲，這個是一定會的，我不能打包票說絕對不會。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，因為審查的時間，例如修復再利用的排審要等市政府，所以有些時間你們無法掌握，但是在你們可掌握的範圍內，請務必要按照進度。"],["蕭院長宗煌：其他的工項部分都按照進度在進行。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。接下來要關心這一次業務費的解凍案，也是今天要審查的，這次凍結比例是30%，對我來講已經是還好、萬幸了，因為最早在野黨提出故宮的凍結比例高達七成，非常誇張，七成的凍結比例幾乎讓你無法運作，但是還好，後來你們也很積極溝通，也感謝在野黨體諒，後來從七成改成三成，但是影響還是很大。其中我比較關切的，今天你們的報告當中也提到，要去充實數位的內容以及數位轉型。有一個跟Google藝術與文化合作的平臺已經合作超過10年了，所以大家很關注，在上面我們能夠虛擬看展，目前在平臺上展出展品的影像件數是980件，有35檔的線上展覽，但是跟整體70萬件的文物相比，它還是很小的一部分，有沒有預計要持續增加呢？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們當然希望持續增加，包括我之前在國美館的時候，也一直希望跟Google合作，但它根本不理我們，因為它覺得國美館太小了。故宮目前有100件的文物、5個展覽會新增，這個部分跟委員報告。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個是一年度的？"],["蕭院長宗煌：今年。"],["吳委員沛憶：今年度，所以會逐年持續增加嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：會。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。我想數位轉型也是故宮很重要的計畫，我們希望可以持續地加強，讓世界都能夠看到故宮，透過故宮也看見臺灣文化的豐富跟美麗，好不好？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：謝謝院長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員的質詢，官員請回座。","接下來有請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-11","speakers":["葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","劉書彬","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","范雲","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國立故宮博物院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1144901_00003"}}},{"id":"161428","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161428","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d18114144435cbadd4ecff7037c8be0de48ff0cc24d356c57dbc13a137a43a01e8185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：（10時40分）謝謝主席，有請院長。"],["主席：請院長備質詢，謝謝。"],["蕭院長宗煌：委員早。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長早。雖然我是原住民，但是我很關心故宮的發展，我也都希望我們政府部門所有的單位都能夠很蓬勃。我看到我們故宮的預算在媒宣的部分有被刪60%，另外一個部分就是綜合規劃與推廣行銷有被凍結1,000萬元，對不對？院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我很關心，為什麼？院長，其實這一、兩年故宮的小編很有名，對吧？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，尤其是南院的小編。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：還受到媒體的採訪。我是這樣子看，你們在賣文物商品，小編他們很厲害，能夠去把這些東西結合一些時事，製造話題，就帶動商品的業績發展。我也特別覺得其實這些小編很聰明，因為我也有進去看，不論是你們的Threads及他們的文字應用，人家都說90前後這個世代的孩子叫做「厭世代」，就是含著滑鼠出生，在網路的語言上有比較多的抱怨，所以如何跟他們溝通是非常重要的一件事情。我看到我們小編的用語都挺好的，你看，他說：「如果你看得到這篇串文，代表你的脆很有品味」，年輕人看了就很開心；還有他說：「你最好在5/18免費入館日那天出現在我面前，有沒有聽到？」就很有感！對不對？然後他們也會去結合一些物品，例如他說：「雖然不是權志龍，但GD我也是有的」，就是講這根別針，這個權志龍，當然我也不認識，後來我問助理，他們說這是非常有名的韓國藝人，他的藝名叫做GD，GD又是網路的用語「勾搭」的意思。","所以我的意思是說，他們很能夠去用這一些現代的語言讓人家願意來互動，不僅大大的增加網路聲量，也大大的增加故宮的曝光度。甚至我看到最新一期的網路溫度計，你們的小編是排行榜第4名，而且光是到今年4月，你們的南院進館人數三十五萬六千多人，已經比去年一整年增加了非常非常高的比例。","我也從南院的意見調查報告看得出來，很多的民眾是透過你們這些自媒體來認識你們，甚至是入館。好，院長，我講這麼多不是為了讚美，我的意思是說，你到底給他多少薪水啊？"],["蕭院長宗煌：公務員的薪水當然都是一樣的，可是因為……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以小編是公務人員？"],["蕭院長宗煌：研究人員。同仁對工作有熱忱，基本上來講，我非常的感激。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那會升官嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：當然啦，但是……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：既然您說他是公務員，會升官嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：但是升官還是要依照他的著作審查逐步去進行，因為按讚數這個東西不能代表升官的點數。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我是希望要留才，為什麼我要這樣講？你看，我剛剛講的網路溫度計，你們還排第4名，前面的是南投基督教醫院的小編，但是我們看到他在那邊抱怨，他說他創造了瀏覽率1,000萬人，「但是這個月薪水下來還是不到3萬」，顯然他已經很想跳槽了。我的意思是說，你們的媒宣也被刪了60%，這是很龐大的一筆數字，綜規推廣行銷也被凍結1,000萬元，但是小編創造這麼高的網路聲量和文物商品銷售，我就是在想，如果這個發生在故宮，你有沒有辦法留住這樣的人才？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上來講，我們這位同仁會那麼熱衷宣傳故宮，就表示他深愛故宮，應該……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：不見得，別人也可以挖角，我也很想挖角。院長，我只是要提醒，其實對我們來講，人才是無價的，既然我們能夠有這麼好的人才，我很希望故宮能夠把他視為一個很重要的資產。"],["蕭院長宗煌：有，故宮的同仁都很愛他。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，接下來我想請教一下，因為你們有提到AI與資料的開放，當然，博物館很重要的功能就是要做社會的教育推廣，在這裡你們也有提到會做數位教育的創新應用，用STEAM的教育理念動手做、跨學科去做AI加STEAM的課程，在這個年度開始，要在88所中小學推廣，開發30套教案。那我就很關心了，院長，因為像我們昨天教文委員會也在討論AI人工智慧法，我們都很清楚AI要靠餵資料，否則它其實不認識原住民，它不認識亞裔，它不認識非裔，因為餵的資料很少，所以它也會歧視、它也會錯誤，這很可怕。今年我們要推廣AI加STEAM課程30套教案，不曉得這個部分有沒有去做什麼樣的注意跟考量？"],["蕭院長宗煌：委員講的AI當然要學習，可是以故宮來講，基本上還是要整合其他的力量，所以譬如像召委有提醒我們要跟TAIDE合作去進行語料庫的串連，這個部分我們會來做。AI有各種不同的level，一般來講，推廣教育的level基本上在資源上面可以找得到，故宮也有這樣的經驗，過去也做過；至於怎麼樣深化，這個部分是一個我們要繼續努力的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，院長，因為你們說這是政府資料開放平臺，要建置高應用價值主題專區，事實上，在這當中我沒有看到文化教育被納入高應用價值資料的主題，但是我看到你們委員會中有一位林開世委員，他也有提到AI運用的相關疑慮，因為他是來自人類學博物館，他說對他們來講，很多相關文物的開放是非常困難的，因為馬上就會牽涉到關於原住民特別的法或者是非常敏感的族群問題等等，多多少少都有一些敏感性，甚至也不是只有原住民，像有一些藏品、有一些宗教等等，他們也好奇在開放之前有沒有審視過哪些文物需要非常嚴重的限制，甚至是根本不適合開放。我不曉得院長您這邊有沒有注意過這個問題，你們打算怎麼做？"],["蕭院長宗煌：故宮文物69萬件，將近70萬件，目前我們的Open Data開放大概41萬件，這些物件基本上來講都是故宮審視可以開放的，所以故宮除了文獻檔案之外，一般的器物，當然宗教類可能會比較敏感，要特殊注意，要不然一般文物基本上來講應該是非常正面的物件。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：院長，我是想請問一下，故宮的館藏當中有沒有原住民的文物？"],["蕭院長宗煌：故宮的典藏……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我講臺灣原住民。"],["蕭院長宗煌：以分類來講，我們沒有做特別的分類，雖然有但數量不多。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有少數幾件？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，數量不多，沒有特別分類。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：為什麼會有那些？"],["蕭院長宗煌：在南院的亞洲織品裡面就會包括這些……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以那些是後來入藏的？"],["蕭院長宗煌：是，在故宮的傳統院藏裡面，有很多文獻資料是關於臺灣原住民的，這方面我們也有專書。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以史料比較多，文物比較少？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：為什麼我會這樣講？因為我也希望能夠兼顧保護，同時也避免一些族群的資料被邊緣化，院長你應該了解我的意思。針對這個部分，我知道故宮今年是做100+，當然我們很了解在對岸的25年，來到臺灣的75年，這個「+」代表著未來新故宮的發展。早期的25年有沒有番品？針對這些番品，怎麼樣讓我們去認識、理解？針對後來的75年，原住民的一些史料、臺灣原住民一些入藏的文物，怎麼樣在未來的新故宮能夠被看見，不要被邊緣化，這是我作為臺灣原住民的期待，所以我希望未來的100+能夠有原住民相關的展覽，能夠有新的詮釋；甚至我很喜歡你們的小編，也很喜歡你們的商品開發，我也希望不要遺漏掉原住民的部分，可以嗎？院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，起碼我來了之後，在南院的展覽，尤其是織品的部分，每一檔都有臺灣原住民不同族群的展覽，這是我跟委員的保證。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：商品的開發我也希望能夠呈現出來，我們也不希望被邊緣化。"],["蕭院長宗煌：關於商品開發，過去故宮都以自己的典藏品作為商品開發的對象，針對這部分，我們跟客委會客發中心有合作，我希望未來我們跟原民會的原發中心也能合作，就是我們可以協助他們來做這方面的開發。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：至少這些少少的史料、少少的藏品能夠被看見，我就覺得已經很棒了，可以這樣嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：其實有一些圖像文獻，譬如臺灣早期的平埔族群在故宮的圖繪裡面是有的，但他不是單獨的，他只是講四方的民族，因為不能用專有的名詞。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我希望你們的研究員……就這個部分，我特別提出這樣的訴求，希望院長可以把它放在心裡。"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，我們找看看有沒有關於故宮原來出版的原住民史料彙編及相關的文獻資料送給委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝院長，謝謝主席。"],["蕭院長宗煌：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢，謝謝院長。我也非常支持伍麗華委員剛剛的說法，支持一下故宮南北院的小編，希望可以在各方各面都給他們更多的鼓勵。","接下來有請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-11","speakers":["葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","劉書彬","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","范雲","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國立故宮博物院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1144901_00003"}}},{"id":"161427","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161427","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d18120fc52f6ba8d0d8906b4d24be0a63becf0cc24d356c57dbc6459bee0242884af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:39:54 - 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上，我們放寬這個所謂的短期商務入境是在112年8月24日，當初的目的是希望能夠活絡兩岸的商機，並且讓臺灣的相關商業活動可以得到更多的發展機會，但比較遺憾的是我們也觀察到最近確實有一些不肖仲介會鑽這個漏洞，利用他可以辦商務簽來吸引人的這個手法，讓中國大陸的人民可以用商務簽來臺灣追星、旅遊，從事跟目的不符合的活動。","我們現在的作法大概就是有三道防線來降低這個情況的發生及惡化，一個就是事前我們會開始針對對象、行程的合理性及必要性進一步和移民署來加強查核，也就是他究竟是不是商務人士，或者裡面的內容明明是他要來參展，可是他去阿里山或日月潭。"],["李委員坤城：因為我看他們說入臺申請方式也可以用代發邀請，就是他本身可能不是廠商，而是誰就能夠邀請他進來，這個就變成門檻放得很寬。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：對，所以這個就是剛剛所提到的，如果我們在事後發現邀請的對象或者邀請方，邀請方一定是臺灣的，不管是掛名的公司或者協會，如果實質上真的是在進行仲介，我們就會給予查處，並且六個月到五年之內就不再受理它的任何申請。"],["李委員坤城：我覺得要注意他們有抓住這個漏洞。臺灣目前演唱會蠻多的，他們有的來聽演唱會，但有的是利用這個機會就進來，所以你們要去查。如果你們也發現有這個趨勢，即申請進來的目的跟實際的行為不一樣、有落差，你們要掌握一下。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：會，沒問題。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。","最後一個問題，我問一下國安局副局長。"],["主席：黃副局長。"],["黃副局長明昭：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：同樣也是520。因為有看到這個報導，現在中國在北京舉辦拉美論壇，有臺灣（中華民國）的兩個邦交國──海地跟聖露西亞，海地是部長有出現，聖露西亞則是他們的一個代表有出現。因為這兩個是我們的邦交國，出現在北京而且是由習近平所主持的拉美論壇，會變得比較敏感。我也擔心是不是在520之前，我們的邦交國會有一些狀況？我不曉得國安局有沒有掌握到什麼樣的情況？"],["黃副局長明昭：從這個會議來看，聖露西亞是由政黨代表出席，不是政府官員……"],["李委員坤城：他是用政黨代表的身分去。"],["黃副局長明昭：對。另外，其他在拉美、加勒比海地區的友邦都沒有派人參加。"],["李委員坤城：海地呢？"],["黃副局長明昭：當然海地是比較那個……國家，所以我們不要評論。但是從這幾個……"],["李委員坤城：怎麼樣的國家？"],["黃副局長明昭：我們從幾個這樣看，還有經過我們蒐整相關的情資來看，我們這幾個邦交國還算很穩固，應該不會……"],["李委員坤城：我就講兩個國家，一個是海地，另一個是聖露西亞，因為他們有到北京去參加，這兩個國家是我們的邦交國，所以我才想在520之前，中國是不是會利用這些邦交國跟臺灣斷交來恫嚇、威嚇我們的政府？有沒有掌握一些相關的訊息？"],["黃副局長明昭：我們都不排除，因為中共的襲擾或者相關軍事演習不斷在進行，常態性的在演訓，所以我們也不排除在520之前或之後有一些動作出來。"],["李委員坤城：外交上面的嗎？"],["黃副局長明昭：我剛剛講的是520，但520這一段時間的外交，目前來看，我們的幾個邦交國沒有鬆動的情形。"],["李委員坤城：因為也不能公開講太多，就是注意一下。因為這個訊息在報章雜誌上都有，畢竟是臺灣的邦交國到了北京參加習近平主持的論壇，我認為有一點點詭異，希望你們能夠掌握相關情資，也擔心中國又在520之前有特別大的動作出來，好不好？"],["黃副局長明昭：好。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝副局長。謝謝主席。"],["黃副局長明昭：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請林憶君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-14","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","李坤城","林憶君","馬文君","張雅琳","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、海洋委員會、大陸委員會、法務部調查局報告「中國複合式威脅對我國家安全\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145001_00012"}}},{"id":"161425","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161425","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d181ab53553307c66875ff7037c8be0de48ff0cc24d356c57dbcd3c8be10e344e7af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"10:29:21 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Guard是有飛機、大砲跟飛潬的，我們現在的海巡，我難得看到你們用所謂的水砲槍，更不要說用真槍實彈了，所以在雙方的武力上當然是有落差的。不過，今天本席要請教你的是，當中國用灰色地帶的方式在騷擾我們，形成我們海巡困擾的時候，我們現在海巡因應的策略是什麼？有沒有分成金門、馬祖、海峽中線、南海、東海等等，你們現在的策略是什麼？"],["謝副署長慶欽：非常感謝委員的指導。我先跟委員報告一下，目前中共灰色地帶對我們的侵擾程度是日益增加，剛剛委員提到，它從2018年隸屬武警總隊以來，其1,000噸以上的海警船從40艘增加到目前的150艘以上。有關委員剛剛質詢的部分，我們現在的重點有三大特徵，第一個就是，目前在金門大概每個月4次，這是例行的，我們都是一對一……"],["王委員定宇：是他侵入我們的水域嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：對，都是在我們水域。"],["王委員定宇：我看這樣子好了，因為時間的關係，但我希望能讓你完整表達。我真正要問的問題是，你的第一個重點是，它日益升高。我現在假設一個狀況，他們英文的名字叫「Quarantine」，如果他們用他們的海警去攔我們的船，第一種情形是在國際水域，他們去攔查駛向高雄港、臺中港的貨船，你們有沒有因應方案？"],["謝副署長慶欽：有，我們在全社會防衛……"],["王委員定宇：怎麼做？直接講你們會怎麼做。"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們目前是這樣，會跟海軍配合，原則上是一對一，我們在茫茫大海的海域上要封控不是那麼簡單，所以我們會派遣艦船……"],["王委員定宇：好，我對你這一段的理解是，如果它去攔查我們的船、駛向臺灣的貨船，我們海巡要一對一去因應它嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：只是在茫茫大海上，我們的船速是24節、30節，就算再快，到的時候事件搞不好都已經結束了，對不對？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：針對這樣的情形，你們有沒有什麼精進的作法？"],["謝副署長慶欽：委員，是這樣的，我們原則上會配合聯合情、監、偵的手段，海軍的部分會撤離，因為這個時候封控，廣義來講是視同作戰，但是我們的重點是，在這種灰色地帶，會由海軍艦艇先一對一擋住海警船，另外我們會開闢安全航道，這個我們會做到。"],["王委員定宇：你現在的講法是……我講的是在國際水域去攔查掛我國國旗的船，或是駛向臺灣的船，我們海巡會採取的強硬作為就是去抵住它的海警，然後開闢安全水道讓這個船脫離嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：重點是在保護我們的國籍船，又或者是要運到我們國內……"],["王委員定宇：那這個是標準作為，還是要現場視情況？因為這個就會升高緊張了。"],["謝副署長慶欽：跟委員報告，原則上是這樣，因為我們國籍船就是算我們的……"],["王委員定宇：它叫浮動主權，就是我們主權的一部分。"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，所以我們會保護它的安全。"],["王委員定宇：百分之百？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：要百分之百，這個是不能打折扣的喔！"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。其他的話，比方說剛才講的……"],["王委員定宇：如果是國際的船，但它的目的地是臺灣的港口，他們進行所謂的攔查，我們該怎麼做？"],["謝副署長慶欽：這部分會涉及到國家安全，原則上在我們的管轄海域內我們會保護它的安全，開闢安全航道，這部分甚至會跟……"],["王委員定宇：你剛剛講的keywords是我們的海域內嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：是12浬內嗎？還是在經濟水域？"],["謝副署長慶欽：原則上是在經濟水域。"],["王委員定宇：在經濟水域就可以了嗎？"],["謝副署長慶欽：對不起，是到24浬。"],["王委員定宇：24浬，是不是臨接區？"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：12浬是我們的領海，24浬是臨接區，經濟水域則是更寬的嘛！"],["謝副署長慶欽：有200浬。"],["王委員定宇：所以是進到24浬，如果這個船不是我國國籍的船舶，但卻是要駛向我國的話，我們就要去開闢安全水道。如果是我國國籍船舶在國際水域或任何水域遭遇到這樣的情形，我們在可以的範圍內……"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們會全力保護。"],["王委員定宇：要全力保護，就是百分之百要處理。"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：你現在先不要下去，我請國安局，我要問國安局的題目是，你們有沒有掌握情資，中國會升高對我們灰色地帶的侵擾，下一個動作就是要做……他們現在已經在預演了，有沒有可能進行所謂的quarantine攔查的這個動作？"],["黃副局長明昭：我們每天遭到中共相關的灰色襲擾……"],["王委員定宇：有沒有這樣的情資或研析？或者是相關的主管可以上來支援？我要問的答案，並不是要給你們考試。我們蒐集那麼多情報，你的情報是要讓國家的各單位用，如果我是海巡署也會想知道，他們在升高……目前聯合戰備警巡是一個禮拜一次，然後有一些聯合戰備警巡改了名字，改成利劍A、利劍B，裡面都有一個科目叫「quarantine」，這個翻譯跟那個封鎖不太一樣，大概是類似攔查的方式在做，你們目前有沒有這樣的情資？"],["黃副局長明昭：之前就已經有這樣的動作了。比方說攔檢，就是在東沙攔檢他們的漁船，但這個也是一個演練，他們在演練。"],["王委員定宇：他是演練啦！"],["黃副局長明昭：對，沒錯。"],["王委員定宇：但是它有這樣的演練，有沒有情資它在近期內會採取這樣的動作？"],["黃副局長明昭：我想我們經過廣泛的情蒐會做一個研判，到時候如果我們認為這是有可能的話，會提供給相關單位處理。"],["王委員定宇：國安局是情報單位，你們是全國最高情報機關，你蒐集的情資要轉成海巡署的作為。","我回到海巡署，副署長，現在這個態勢有升高到quarantine的情形。"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：剛才你點了幾個問題，剛好我今天要問的，我們的船速有限，它的船把我們的海底電纜勾斷了，中華電信第一秒知道就會通知海巡，可是我們的船在哪裡不一定，我們也許會在目標區預置兵力，但是有時候趕到的時候，它已經脫離犯罪現場……"],["謝副署長慶欽：的確。"],["王委員定宇：或者我們的船被攔查，趕到的時候，它已經離開了，形成它攔查執行公權力的假象，它要把那個內海化，我們不能讓它變成內海化，我們的執行能力就要提升，你剛才提到這樣子，那你怎麼改善這個到達現場的速度？"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，兩個方式，現在海巡署全力要爭取經費，建置遠距偵蒐的能力，遠距偵蒐的能力……"],["王委員定宇：那是蒐證而已……"],["謝副署長慶欽：對，要提早應變，第二……"],["王委員定宇：你也可以用無人機去搜查啊！"],["謝副署長慶欽：第二個、造艦部分，我們現在還有新的造艦計畫，要有更好的性能；另外，在特別預算裡面，我們也極力爭取要增加水面無人船……"],["王委員定宇：你這個特別預算其實就在那4,100億裡面……"],["謝副署長慶欽：1,500億中……"],["王委員定宇：提升國土安全防衛韌性裡面嘛！"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，包括水面無人船，包括水下載具……"],["王委員定宇：在野黨藍白說，要把那個刪掉耶！"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們會全力爭取。"],["王委員定宇：就是要因應這個新威脅狀況的預算，他們要刪掉耶！"],["謝副署長慶欽：是，所以我們全力爭取，跟委員報告，因為刻不容緩，所以我們全力爭取。"],["王委員定宇：這個其實是很迫切的威脅……"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：你們是要造艦計畫，我其實要提出一點，我也希望國安局的情報研析要轉成海巡署的作為，速度很重要，美國的海巡有沒有空中兵力、有沒有空勤？"],["謝副署長慶欽：美國的海巡確定有。"],["王委員定宇：美國的海巡空勤其實是世界上排名前五大的空軍喔！"],["謝副署長慶欽：是、是。"],["王委員定宇：各國的海巡，尤其海洋國家，不是只能靠船，要有空中兵力，以前我們的保七也有空警，現在海巡署有沒有發展空勤海巡的計畫？"],["謝副署長慶欽：因為我們要爭取預置的時間，所以我們全力在規劃遠距偵搜的各種裝備，包括空中能量。"],["王委員定宇：好，時間關係，我最後收尾，我給你快速跑一些。事實上，對方用海巡來灰色地帶侵擾，一面是在玩法律戰，一面在玩心理戰，它在玩政治，所以最好的因應方式就是用灰色地帶來回應灰色地帶。我們跟美方、日方在遙遠的地方曾有聯合操演，像最近一次，跟日本，有自1972年以來首次臺灣跟日本的海巡單位在日本沿海進行操演，還有我們跟美國、日本在帛琉附近進行聯合操演，我們跟美國Coast Guard簽訂的訓練合約都有了，假設中國用水警騷擾我們水域，國安局也應該反映上去，我們能不能聯合這些國家，我們是用海巡、是因應颱風的人道威脅，進行聯合演訓、聯合演習的地點就在臺灣海峽。"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，我們有配合外交部，對於友好國家，甚至邦交國，這個方向，我們同意，全力努力。"],["王委員定宇：好。我最後兩個建議：第一個、臺灣的海疆幅員廣大，我們的漁民需要保護，請你們發展空勤海巡，這個是一定要做，你再不做，速度都來不及了……"],["謝副署長慶欽：是。"],["王委員定宇：第二個，我們應該聯合友盟國家，特別是美、日、臺、菲（菲律賓）、澳洲這5國的海巡，我們現在在遙遠的水域是有，我們不好講，但是在臺灣鄰近水域，中共在玩政治、在玩法律戰，我們就結合友盟國家的海巡，這不是軍隊，我們是進行颱風天漂流船的人道援助、救援演練，各出一艘船，規模也不用太大，它在哪裡聯合戰備警巡，我們就在哪裡操演，這個可以去做。"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，的確，救援無國界，這個部分我們完全贊成，全力以赴。"],["王委員定宇：這個建議我們跟某些國家已經在談了，請你們把這個案子擬好去執行，謝謝。"],["謝副署長慶欽：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：現在請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-14","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","李坤城","林憶君","馬文君","張雅琳","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、海洋委員會、大陸委員會、法務部調查局報告「中國複合式威脅對我國家安全\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145001_00012"}}},{"id":"161423","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161423","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d1814dfec5cb880dbc93139dba296d6b924ff0cc24d356c57dbc4001ca9689ad817b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:23:07 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有這些押運人員陪同出國的一些經費，但是今年好像是我們要請捷克國家博物館幫我們吸收這一部分，對嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，國際的交流慣例，今年我們9月到捷克國家博物館，10月到法國凱布朗利博物館，他們基本上會付給我們一定額度的布、卸展押運隊跟去開幕的人力。"],["張委員雅琳：一定額度，我知道，大家互相分攤嘛！對不對？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上來講是，因為這樣，反而我們在出國的時候，我們是稍微緩了一點，沒有那麼大的壓力，但是因為增加的部分，譬如他們都要求我們做數位展覽，數位展覽的數位設備、人力，基本上就不在原來的經費裡面。我們原來希望有經費可以去，現在可能就是動用社會資源。"],["張委員雅琳：動用社會資源？但是我收到的資料是捷克這邊也願意來協助，對吧？"],["蕭院長宗煌：有。"],["張委員雅琳：過去依據慣例的部分，當然是大家各自分擔嘛！"],["蕭院長宗煌：我請余副院長來說明。"],["張委員雅琳：好。"],["余副院長佩瑾：謝謝委員的關心，捷克展每年都會開視訊會議，5月12日的視訊會議，捷克展首度有表示關於數位展的部分，因為也是展覽內容的一部分，所以他們會考慮支付兩位隨展人員的差旅費。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但也因為是這一次旅費被刪掉，我們必須要跟大家提出這樣子的需求，我覺得這樣子真的是丟臉丟到國際了。真的還是要再次提醒，因為接下來還有法國合作的特展，有85件文物要出國，3件要向國外借展，總共有88件文物的押運費用，目前也都是要再找民間資源協助，讓我們可以順利地維護展覽的品質。我想問一下，在這個過程之中，如果沒有民間資源，會不會開天窗啊？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我一再跟委員報告，我們去做了經費調配就不會開天窗，但是也要跟委員坦白講，會影響的就是故宮南院、北院國際展的部分，因為南院、北院的國際展，我們有很多借展的標的物，可是因為經費不足，可能我們就會調整，就是用其他的來源，從國內借展或是怎麼樣因應那個展覽，所以這個部分……"],["張委員雅琳：了解，本來應該要做國際交流，就要縮小規模嘛！對不對？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，有一些展件我們可能就會放棄。"],["張委員雅琳：了解。我還是要再次強調百年這麼重要，我真的不懂為什麼藍白要在這件事情上面亂刪。再來，我知道媒宣費也有被刪，所以我想跟院長表達，這部分如果有需要我們來幫忙宣傳，我們也願意用我們個人一些小小的粉絲頁頁面幫忙做一些宣傳，希望大家可以一起來支持故宮。"],["蕭院長宗煌：謝謝委員，希望每一個委員的粉絲頁都幫我們宣傳一下。"],["張委員雅琳：我也是希望、我也是呼籲啦！尤其是藍、白的委員，因為你們種下這個因，承擔這個果。","再來，今天非常多的委員都很關心旅客人次，我做了一個分析，將來臺旅客總數跟故宮的旅客總數比較。剛剛我覺得院長其實也有關注到，我發現韓國是一個潛力股，我自己算了一下，過去從112年到113年，全部的來臺旅客中韓國旅客是在成長的，可是在比例上來說，到故宮的旅客卻是往下掉的，所以我覺得這個地方是非常有機會的。再來我們看到今年2月的數字，韓國旅客已經占了42%，所以要拯救故宮的外國旅客數，這邊會是一個機會，尤其是現在日幣又貶值了，可能會影響到日本旅客出國的意願。所以這個部分我想問一下，這麼有潛力的一個潛力股，我看到113年的新故宮計畫有請一些YouTuber來宣傳，可是今年就只有去特展借展的一個目驗而已，我們到底做了什麼事情要來吸引韓國的觀光客呢？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，預算書上所呈現的，譬如說明年的預算是今年提的，所以有時候都緩不濟急。故宮在這方面有一個稍微有利的條件，就是我們有故宮作業基金、有文創商品的盈餘，所以這個部分我們今年會參加日本旅展，接下來可能……"],["張委員雅琳：那是日本旅展，但是跟韓國沒有關係。"],["蕭院長宗煌：我知道，這個計畫就是這樣，接下來我們會搭配文化部參加韓國國際書展，明年我們……"],["張委員雅琳：院長，我們先講今年好了啦！畢竟今年要先救人數，可不可以講？書展之外還有嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：韓國就是書展，因為基本上還是要配合國外特定的場合去宣傳，不然我們自己去，我們又沒有那麼大的經費，然後就說我們去辦一個所謂的踩線團或是什麼。這個部分我們現在很清楚就是跟觀光署脣齒相依，我們會跟觀光署合作。"],["張委員雅琳：跟觀光署合作嘛！但國內的部分還是要宣傳吧！"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為他們的入境人數增加，理論上我們的人數就會增加。"],["張委員雅琳：對啊！但是去年並沒有完全反映。"],["蕭院長宗煌：如果單獨要故宮去拉國際的旅客，那把故宮看得太厲害了，因為我們還是要有一個整體的……"],["張委員雅琳：我也沒有這個意思，院長，我只是想問你們有沒有什麼具體的計畫，剛剛說只有書展跟觀光署嘛！我只想要知道我們如何把握這個商機。院長，讓我繼續講完，我有一個建議，羅浮宮為了吸引年輕的，尤其是韓國的觀光客，他們其實有跟一些潮流明星合作，像這個是跟BTS，這是一個非常紅的團體，跟其中一個明星叫J-HOPE合作，這個合作就讓他們的按讚數達到122萬，而且是平常貼文的3,000到6,000倍。雖然我們不能夠單獨去做，但是我想在一些宣傳的方式上面，也許今年沒有錢，但是明年我們是不是可以考慮用更有創意的方式，結合潮流明星的方式吸引旅客？包含像前陣子有一個演出機智醫生生活的演員也是來臺灣，去了臺南，又帶動了臺南城市觀光的人數。這個是提供給院長，我們可以有更具創意的思考，可以嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，同仁給我看，我們有一個韓國的YouTuber，現在有七萬多的點閱人數，所以日本、韓國的YouTuber的部分，我們會來想辦法。"],["張委員雅琳：會繼續就對了？"],["蕭院長宗煌：看怎麼跟觀光署合作，因為我們現在要站在相同的陣線做國際行銷。"],["張委員雅琳：了解。再來我再問最後一個問題，去年我在問「百年兒少」有沒有什麼相關特展的時候，你們回復了會有一個古代圍棋文化──碁人弈事的特展，而且在你們回復的文字裡面也說，你們會去辦一些圍棋文化推廣賽，吸引兒少來參與，並且透過展覽跟棋賽的結合，吸引親子觀眾來參觀本展。這樣子的規劃我覺得是好的，但我也想要請教，現在在這個展裡面，我目前只能找到相關的一些宣傳或是介紹，但都是一些非常生硬的文字，接下來你們會有一些宣傳的圖卡或是說明，讓親子更了解這是給親子的活動嗎？不然我覺得大家這樣看過去，可能不知道這個是給親子的活動，這是第一個問題。第二個問題是，因為這個活動是在暑假，它是否為夏日親子藝術月的其中一個活動規劃？這兩個問題可不可以請院長回復我一下？"],["蕭院長宗煌：這個不是夏日親子藝術月，夏日親子藝術月是在南院。有關今年度兒童的推廣教育活動，除了碁人弈事之外，其實我有交代同仁，有兩個展覽，一個是南院的浮世繪展覽，一個是北院的大都會展覽，這兩個展覽都會搭配相關的兒童學習教育活動。碁人弈事的部分，基本上比賽在規劃中，它有一個專家的觀摩組，有一個段數組，還有一個學生組，分別在故宮的正館、第二展覽館跟行政區辦理。有關訊息的部分，他們跟我報告過，修正之後就會上網。至於怎麼樣讓故宮有一個比較易讀的連結，我也在思考，未來是不是每一個展覽我們都推一個小手冊，像學習手冊、學習單這樣的模式，讓每一個展覽都用比較簡單的方式，讓小朋友可以去理解這個展覽的內容。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我想這是一個更大的工程，不過我想要先回到這一題，針對這一件事情，你們自己當時回復我，這是針對百年計畫的兒少特展。我們現在是不是可以先讓這個事情被解決，產出一些讓……因為坦白說，我們這樣看到，我真的不知道這是給小孩的展，這些文字的敘述是不是可以有一些圖卡的說明呢？你們有這樣子的規劃嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，會陸續推出學習單的部分。"],["張委員雅琳：不是學習單，我說的是圖卡，因為至少我點進去的時候要知道這是給我的，我才會去嘛！"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們請書文處處長回去趕快跟同仁研究看看如何處理。"],["張委員雅琳：這部分現在是沒有規劃的意思，現在就是只有做到這樣子，是嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：有推廣教育活動、有比賽，這個都有，只是說所謂的……"],["張委員雅琳：我說的是官網啦！坦白說，你今天一定要……"],["蕭院長宗煌：官網我們會陸續上。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我是說有沒有一些宣傳，讓小朋友知道這是給他們的活動？"],["蕭院長宗煌：會、會、會。"],["張委員雅琳：你們有嘛！都已經有這些規劃了，對不對？"],["蕭院長宗煌：還在委託單位製作當中，然後我們會陸續放上，包括比賽的內容。"],["張委員雅琳：好，因為我現在收到訊息是7月上旬才會在網站上公布相關的活動及消息，8月中旬才會在北院舉辦，8月舉辦會不會有點太晚了？因為暑假都已經快要到尾聲了，這部分我也是希望……"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們儘量把公告周知的期程拉前面一點。"],["張委員雅琳：我說的是舉辦活動的時間。"],["蕭院長宗煌：活動的時間沒有問題，基本上我們找專業的圍棋團體，因為他們有自己的網絡，所以他們評估這個時間反而是比較適合的時間，小朋友放暑假的時間反而比較適合。"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係，這樣聽起來現在是不是已經有一些詳細的計畫了？是不是可以在今天會後送到我辦公室？可以嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員質詢，官員請回座。","接下來有請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-11","speakers":["葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","劉書彬","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","范雲","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國立故宮博物院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1144901_00003"}}},{"id":"161421","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161421","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d1811cb9114474db0cf2581586c022403610f0cc24d356c57dbcb88d7f28b768b82a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:15:56 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？"],["黃副局長明昭：當時我們正式函文給警政署，警政署回復說，經過他們內部的宣導及了解，沒有人來投訴、沒有人來申訴，所以我們無從去立案調查。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們發函給警政署是這樣子，但是昨天其實有許多媒體私下去詢問警政署，都講到八年前確實有這個投訴，所以請你們再把這個事情調查清楚。我必須要強調國安局屢次出現性騷的問題，但總是輕放，我覺得大家已經看不下去，請你們儘快做檢討。","我現在要問陸委會，關於陸委會的部分，我們有接到學生陳情，他們本來是有一個113學年度的臺灣香港資優教育國際交流的活動，取消了，是因為你們發的公文跟指示，所以陸委會是介入學校交流嗎？請問一下臺灣香港資優教育國際交流活動，你們是因為有查出他們有什麼樣的統戰或是問題，所以要求學校取消這個活動嗎？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：跟委員報告，基本上現在兩岸交流，不管是從香港或跟中國大陸這個部分，我們都還是會希望學校單位做好兩件事情，第一個就是出發前一定要登錄，第二個就是一定要完善所謂學生交流的具體內容，所以像這樣子的公文，基本上來講，陸委會跟教育部我們是基於提醒的角色，並沒有完全的去禁止，不管是這個公文上所提到的活動或者是其他的文教活動，都沒有完全的禁止。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們這樣的建議就是請他回去禁止嘛！","最後，請主席給我一點時間，我也要問一下藝人的問題，您剛剛講說鎖定了二十多位的明星，可能要針對他們是否觸犯陸委會相關法令如國安法、反滲透法等進行調查，有二十幾位，你們有具體的名單嗎？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：我們有具體的事證。"],["徐委員巧芯：是什麼樣的事證？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：比如他在特定的時間，配合特定的單位轉發特定的內容。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以只要配合他們轉貼特定的內容，這些都算。那符合哪一些要件會啟動您剛剛講的第三十三條之一？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：因為第三十三條之一主要還是針對政治性內容之合作，所以配合特定單位指的是黨政軍，然後發的內容主要是要消滅中華民國主權的意涵，另外特定的時間就是彼此之間看起來並不是一個偶然的情況。"],["徐委員巧芯：在微博上面經常可以看到可能在很多節日，會有明星共同轉貼相關的文章，這些文章是我們看起來很不舒服的，這些都有被列在你們那二十幾位的對象裡面嗎？這是屬於你們判定第三十三條之一或是其他國安、反滲透相關法律裡面，未來要起訴、可能會起訴或是會執法的對象嗎？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：內容的部分就跟委員報告的……"],["徐委員巧芯：請針對我剛剛特定講的這一種案例。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：有的時候內容看起來舒不舒服是主觀的，但是我們剛剛還特別強調，譬如他去鼓吹武統，武統這件事情就是紅線了。"],["徐委員巧芯：有哪一個藝人現在有在鼓吹武統的行為？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：之前在聯合利劍─2024B的時候，我們就有查處到有一些藝人就是配合……"],["徐委員巧芯：可不可以具體講一下是哪一些藝人？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：這部分因為涉及……"],["徐委員巧芯：因為在聯合利劍─2024B的時候人家既然都已經公開地去講您剛剛所謂的武統了，哪幾位藝人當時有發表武統言論？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：譬如說，像……這部分如果委員需要的話，我們可以私底下再提供你名單。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼要私底下講？你都已經公開說……對方所謂的……轉發武統相關的訊息是公開的吧？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們對於對方轉發武統相關的內容要進行查處？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：這也已經是公開，誠如你剛剛講的吧？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：那有哪幾位為什麼不能公開講？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：可以公開講……"],["徐委員巧芯：那就請說。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：基本上我們現在還是在進行相關事證的蒐集。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們還沒有進行完相關事證的蒐集嗎？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：可能會有更多……"],["徐委員巧芯：不是只要有……"],["沈副主任委員有忠：可能有更多，現階段他們已經踩到紅線了。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你認為只要轉發過武統訊息的就已經是踩到紅線，這個我完全能夠同意你的說法，但是當我問你有哪幾位……"],["沈副主任委員有忠：消滅中華民國主權也是。"],["徐委員巧芯：我同意，但是有哪幾位為什麼不能公開？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：可以公開，但我們還是要等到適當的、調查完畢的時候。"],["徐委員巧芯：什麼是適當的調查時間？你們要調查多久？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：我們還是要配合文化部，因為這個案子的主管機關是文化部。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們跟文化部是有協同嗎？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問要調查多久才要公布所謂二十幾位明星裡面有哪些人要遭到懲處？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：這個不是我在這邊說要調查多久就可以算的，我們還是要配合作為主管機關的文化部……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以確定會辦那二十幾位的明星？確定要辦他們？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：現在不能明確地跟委員報告一定會辦二十幾位，但我們還是會按照情節的輕重還有客觀的事證，而不會用主觀去裁量。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們瞭解了，謝謝。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請王定宇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-14","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","李坤城","林憶君","馬文君","張雅琳","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、海洋委員會、大陸委員會、法務部調查局報告「中國複合式威脅對我國家安全\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145001_00012"}}},{"id":"161420","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161420","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d181692d6c059f5861bf06b4d24be0a63becf0cc24d356c57dbc5e656c1fa01693ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:16:22 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我們一定需要花更多的資源跟力氣去預防，現在我們是用職業安全的相關措施要求雇主實施，可是的確沒有錯，在雇主部分，尤其是戶外工作的雇主，對這件事情的意識不足，所以第一個部分，我們還是會加強宣導，但是不會只靠宣導；第二個部分，我們會有更多的能量放在勞動檢查上，因為如果雇主真的不好好面對這個問題，在未來確定氣溫會更高的情形下，可能會有更多勞工的職安風險會在這個地方發生，這是我們很不樂見的事情。"],["王委員育敏：好，希望勞動部要把這個部分視為重要的工作，因為它危及的就是勞工的……"],["洪部長申翰：而且會越來越危及。"],["王委員育敏：對，勞工的健康，有些中暑是很嚴重的，勞工可能會因此喪命，所以這個部分，希望你們一方面要加強勞檢，一方面也要請專家研議一些具體、有效的方案，針對這樣的作業環境要如何有效降溫或者有更好的防護措施來協助勞工，另外就是允許勞工一旦有不舒服情況，應該就可以有立刻停工的權利，我覺得這幾項你們應該都要有更好的落實，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好。剛剛委員說的，包括現場的作業、包括設計休息的場所，讓勞工有地方休息，而這個休息場所的設計跟規劃都會是在我們整體檢查的範圍內。"],["王委員育敏：OK，好，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：現在休息。","休息（10時26分）","繼續開會（10時39分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":560,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","郭國文","廖偉翔","陳瑩","楊曜","范雲"],"page_start":447,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算決議有關勞動部主管預算凍結報告案 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長，目前五大行庫可承作購置住宅貸款的額度，以及辦理住宅建築跟企業建築放款的總額，占放款時所收存總額的金額跟金融債券發售的比例，在兩星期內提供給本席一個書面回復。"],["莊部長翠雲：好的。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴召委的質詢。","下一位請顏寬恒委員質詢。","報告委員會，顏寬恒委員質詢之後，我們休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":588,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","李彥秀","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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有在做……那以後怎麼做？"],["洪部長申翰：以後我們當然還是希望能夠有專業的人士來協助，可是至少我可以跟委員說，從今年1月到現在，目前都是沒有開口契約媒宣標案的狀況，我們很辛苦努力在經營，但這部分也是在檢討去年大家詬病的一些問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：未來如果再發包開口合約的時候，關於你們的一些規定，當然希望你們對整個成效要追蹤，比如說勞工對勞保不了解的部分、勞工對工時加班權益理解不清楚的部分或者是勞工對勞動契約的誤解等等，我想這些在線上都可以說明；我也希望互動性要好一點，為了要便民，你必須要把這個東西放在開口合約的規定裡面。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，你現在講的是兩個層次，第一個層次是我們會對開口契約的適用範圍做檢討、做適當的限定，因為大家現在都不希望開口契約被擴大使用，這部分會檢討；第二個是在宣傳內容上面的成效希望能提升，我覺得這兩個部分我們都會來做。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦，一起加油。我看今天大家都比較忙，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員，謝謝部長。邱委員，因為你剛剛有提到，我要回應一下，我是有凍一個50萬，但提出報告後就始得動支，謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：差不多啦。"],["主席：誰跟你差不多！","接下來請王育敏委員來詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":560,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","郭國文","廖偉翔","陳瑩","楊曜","范雲"],"page_start":447,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算決議有關勞動部主管預算凍結報告案 76案（含報告事項59案\n及討論事項17案）","agenda_id":"1145001_00016"}}},{"id":"161417","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161417","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d181e573cb8ae600d7e1581586c022403610f0cc24d356c57dbc103f035c999116f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:05:16 - 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們社群平臺的轉發，比如像歐陽娜娜等等，像對於這些藝人在協同操作的時候，他們是不是也是所謂「福建網絡」當中的一環？又或者他們是另外的在地協力者、又或者他們只是為了賺中國錢？過去陸委會開過記者會，對於像這樣身為臺灣人，但想去中國賺錢，因為臺灣沒有明確的罰則，所以他們也認為無所謂，在這樣的宣示之後，現在陸委會有沒有更進一步的罰則或者是有進一步的想要處理這樣的狀況？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是，非常謝謝委員給這次機會讓我們來針對這個議題進一步說明。確實我們觀察到臺灣的一些藝人，他們可能為了要到中國大陸的市場去尋求更多的商機，這個部分我們當然是尊重每個藝人的選擇，但是我們比較在意的還是他們在特定的時間點配合特定的對象、轉發特定的內容，甚至是擴大傳散來影響臺灣的民心士氣，這個是我們陸委會所沒有辦法容忍的。","他們踩的底線就是在於我們不希望這些藝人那樣的去破壞我們國家主權，或者是踐踏臺灣民主憲政這種自由的生活方式，所以我們過往大部分都是希望能夠透過社會輿論的壓力，希望他們能夠自我收斂跟節制，但現在看起來中共有一些變本加厲的作為，所以我們也確實協同文化部，在近期有召開了一些特別的專案會議，希望針對這個現象能夠稍微有一點點、更進一步的查處跟作為。","昨天我們主委在一些節目上面的專訪有提到了特定的對象，我們不是針對特定的人，而是針對內容，所以我們要掌握客觀的事實跟事證之後，我們會跟文化部一起來適當的應用相關的法規，比如兩岸條例第三十三條之一，來進行適當的查處。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以對於他們的這些過去，其實法在那裡，只是沒有想要使用，覺得希望是用市場的機制或是臺灣人民不要去成為他們的粉絲，而現在就是要把法拿出來用，如果是這樣的話，對於跟文化部相關專案會議當中，目前鎖定的有哪些人？是從現在的時間點開始來看？還是從過去的言論來看？你們有沒有設定什麼樣的標準？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：有，跟委員報告，我們大概就是按照這個頻率還有嚴重性的大小，以比較用客觀的標準，大概初步鎖定了二十幾位，我們也進一步的是希望文化部可以針對特別情節比較嚴重的，也就是他不是只有轉貼，甚至有可能是公開地來參加一些政協的活動，或者是他不是只有轉貼文字，甚至口頭上用加大語氣的方式來去貶抑我們國家的主權，像這些我們都會希望文化部能第一波去做處理。但也利用這次機會來跟委員及大院在座的每一位先進報告，我們針對最近中共在臺滲透的部分，剛剛委員所關注到網路的這一塊……"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：我們觀察到在111年的時候，我們曾經有想要通過所謂的「數位中介服務法」，針對網路的亂象來進一步的作一些規範跟管理，但比較可惜的是，當時社會共識還不足並沒有通過，我們也確實看到網路上面成為中共滲透臺灣非常非常嚴重的一個平臺，如果在現在的當下，能夠凝聚更多的社會共識的話，可以在網路上面有一個專法來進行管理，這會大大的補足現有法規的不足；跟委員報告，我們現在這個專法的工具還有權責機關不明的現象，是造成了我們看到那篇報導上面所謂的「福建網絡」，大幅度地滲透臺灣最主要的原因之一，專法及主管機關不明，大概就這兩塊。"],["林委員楚茵：我知道，因為法規要立法，以現在立法院的狀況，恐怕不是那麼容易，但是以現有的法規來講，包括兩岸人民關係條例第三十三條之一，我想副主委非常清楚，就是不能夠跟中國來做所謂合作的這些行為，如果真的有事實、有找到金流或者是在報導，甚至於判決、判例當中有這樣明確的狀況的時候，我認為有法還是必須要去執行。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：我們一定查處到底。"],["林委員楚茵：包括剛剛黃副局長特別提到有四十幾個所謂網路當中協助中國的像福建網絡這種在地協力者，我也希望陸委會、法務部跟相關的單位，甚至於文化部、數位部都能夠一起依法來行政、依法來執行，好嗎？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是，沒問題。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席（林委員楚茵代）：現在請徐巧芯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-14","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","李坤城","林憶君","馬文君","張雅琳","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、海洋委員會、大陸委員會、法務部調查局報告「中國複合式威脅對我國家安全\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145001_00012"}}},{"id":"161416","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161416","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d181741b10ca02692164ff7037c8be0de48ff0cc24d356c57dbcefa4b89b7a34049c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:01:45 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編列是講求執行率，可是收購文物完全不適合把執行率當做工作指標，因為我們買文物不像逛夜市，想吃什麼就可以買。好的文物不僅可遇不可求，而且是寧缺勿濫，舉例而言，假設今年編了2,000萬元的預算，我們寧願完全沒花掉，也不該為了預算的執行率而隨便收購文物。事實上故宮在2023年的預算書中已做過說明，就是為了用更貼近博物館實務的方式來接受立法院的預算審查，故宮決定採用先射箭再畫靶的方式來編列收購文物的預算。這是什麼意思？就是故宮先行辦理完文物的預審，有了明確的文物採購標的之後，來年才針對這個標的編列預算，也就是說，故宮今年先確認市場上有沒有確定要買的文物，瞭解收購文物需要多少錢之後，隔年再精準編列預算。請問院長，故宮現在是不是仍舊依照這個標準來編列收購文物的預算？另外也想請院長分享一下，身為世界級博物館的故宮，收購文物需要考量哪些面向？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，因為我歷經幾個博物館或是美術館，有關文物採購所面臨的問題，一個是沒有錢，一個是編了預算卻沒有東西可以買，就是像委員講的寧缺勿濫，所以故宮才會成立一個故宮文物發展基金。故宮文物發展基金就是在我們的年度預算之外有一個基金，這個基金跟我們的文創商品做一個連結，如果文創商品賣得好，我們有累積盈餘的話，基本上就可以考慮買文物，可是這幾年因為基金的預算盈餘沒有那麼樂觀，所以我們也沒有編文物採購的預算。另外就是因為文物可遇不可求，對故宮來講，如果它的品相不如故宮的，那我為什麼要買？"],["林委員宜瑾：對，當然啊！"],["蕭院長宗煌：如果它的品相高過故宮的，以現在的拍賣市場來講，我們基本上大概是買不起，所以這個東西有時候捐贈的實質效益比花錢去買還要高。但我們當然也不能一直倚賴外界的捐贈，故宮的文物典藏有故宮文物的規矩，就是我們有三級三審制，最主要是要符合故宮的定位，因為有很多外界的收藏家一直希望把文物捐給故宮，可是如果不符合故宮的屬性……"],["林委員宜瑾：也要符合故宮的需求。"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上我們也不會接受。"],["林委員宜瑾：瞭解。","順帶一提，故宮連要購藏什麼樣類型的文物都會明確寫在預算書上，我們在審預算的時候會看見……"],["蕭院長宗煌：不太可能。"],["林委員宜瑾：有啦！像2023年的預算書上寫的就是亞洲織品啊！"],["蕭院長宗煌：亞洲織品是一個大概的概念。"],["林委員宜瑾：我的意思是說，就是類似這樣的品項。"],["蕭院長宗煌：對、對、對。"],["林委員宜瑾：確實是哪個文物當然不會寫。"],["蕭院長宗煌：是、是、是。"],["林委員宜瑾：我說從這一點我們就可以看出故宮的採購流程。好，針對今年度的故宮預算，本席有提出一份主決議，指出故宮在100歲院慶的這一年，應該思考如何讓故宮進一步融入臺灣社會。1948年故宮的第一批文物從中國運抵臺灣，距離現在已經76年，換句話說，百年故宮在臺灣發展的時間占了整體歲月的六、七成以上，所以從整個脈絡來看，故宮雖然典藏的是中國文物，可是它早就是Made in Taiwan的國際型博物館。請教院長，放眼未來100年，你有什麼樣的策略性規劃，讓臺灣在更願意親近故宮的同時，也透過故宮的博物館專業，讓世界看見臺灣？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，故宮百年歷史裡面，誠如委員講的，有60年在外雙溪，十五、六年在臺中北溝，基本上來講，100年的歷史在臺灣占了四分之三，所以臺灣跟故宮文物是連結在一起的，而且故宮文物也是因為在臺灣，可以讓全世界的人知道華夏文物的精彩之美。「100+」是故宮的一個階段，我們更放眼「100+」之後怎麼樣，簡單講，就是我們大概有兩個slogan、兩個政策，就是我們希望它是一個全民的故宮、它是一個世界的故宮。","當然，我們除了儘量提升故宮的典藏、研究、展示、教育推廣跟行銷公共服務的效能，有關臺灣的故宮的部分，我們的「國寶出遊去」像去年到臺南，明天在澎湖開展，年底則會到宜蘭蘭陽博物館，就是我們把故宮的國寶送到地方去，讓地方的民眾可以更方便看到這些文物。另外，世界的故宮就是我們跟世界做連結，不管是兩個大展「大美不言」和「大都會」，或是捷克國家博物館、法國凱布朗利博物館，我們除了把故宮推展到臺灣不同的鄉鎮之外，也希望能儘量推到全世界，達到全民的故宮和世界的故宮的目標及願景。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝院長的回答。","接下來要跟院長討論的是，今年初故宮的一位外籍諮詢委員野島剛在一篇專欄文章中提醒，說應該要謹慎思考過度具政治色彩的兩岸故宮交流。本席是相當同意這樣的提醒，不管是臺灣還是中國，不斷有人要利用故宮文物進行政治性的操作，終極目標當然無非就是為了中國併吞臺灣提供文化上的正當性。這種帶有政治目的的博物館交流，它的統戰效果，我們姑且不論，但是絕對會把臺灣人越推越遠、越來越難親近故宮。像是這個月8日就有某人悟性很高，從故宮的文物當中悟出分久必合的政治暗示。他個人獨特的藝術品味，我是尊重，不過身為民主臺灣，特別是我們國家級博物館的故宮，我覺得如何因應這樣的政治操作，我們必須要有明確的態度。所以兩個問題請教院長，像您也是身為內閣閣員，您要如何因應針對故宮文物的統戰操作？第二，在你的領導之下，對中國的交流，有哪些原則你覺得必須要堅持？又在什麼樣的條件之下，你才可能跟中國的故宮有所交流？院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：撇開故宮兩個字的名稱跟它的歷史脈絡，基本上，故宮博物院就是一個博物館，談論的就是文化藝術，談論的就是博物館的經營管理，談論的就是怎麼樣服務民眾。臺灣是一個自由民主、和平穩定的國家，沒有自由民主，就不是臺灣，沒有和平穩定，也不是臺灣。要跟大陸進行兩岸博物館交流，基本上還是要在對等尊重、良善互惠的條件下，當然我會照兩岸人民關係條例進行。如果沒有在那樣有利的條件之下，原則上故宮對這方面還是比較保守。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，最後20秒，我要跟院長討論一下國際旅客的問題，同樣是野島岡的觀察，他說過去故宮的國際旅客還是以日本人居多，現在韓國跟東南亞的參觀人數大幅增加。這個遊客結構的改變，有一個現象我們可以注意到，在到故宮的旅客當中，日本人是以個人前往故宮的形式居多，韓國就是團體參訪居多。日本人其實明明也有旅行團到臺灣，可是為什麼感覺日本的旅行團到故宮的確實相對很少？請教為什麼沒有把故宮納進行程？院長有沒有掌握這樣的方向？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我們有委託一個專案研究探討為什麼大家不來故宮，當然提出了很多的觀點，基本上我個人的觀點，第一個，日本遊客就是因為日幣貶值，在日幣貶值的狀況下，反而全世界的人都流向日本，包括臺灣；日本的旅行團在招募的時候，因為日幣貶值……"],["林委員宜瑾：他們出國就比較貴。"],["蕭院長宗煌：出國比較貴、比較不方便。反而是韓國的情況，因為過去日本客人居多，韓國客人現在後來居上，去年韓國客人占國外旅客33%，日本反而是32%，韓國超越日本，韓國團的原因是他們沒有貨幣的問題，另外韓國過去到臺灣來的人比較少，所以他們對整個臺灣的環境或是資訊比較陌生，所以他們以團客居多，這是我個人的看法。另外，這一部分也是我們自己的缺失，因為過去我們沒有把韓國當作一個主流的客群，現在變成主流客群，所以我們現在在增加韓文的導覽手冊、展覽的說明，包括文創商品的韓文標示，這個部分包括韓語的導遊，我們都會努力加強。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝院長，看起來院長很有掌握。謝謝院長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾召委的質詢，院長請回座。","接下來有請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-11","speakers":["葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","劉書彬","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","范雲","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國立故宮博物院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1144901_00003"}}},{"id":"161415","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161415","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d181cf77324b39233408139dba296d6b924ff0cc24d356c57dbc3dd907335e0676765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:00:09 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完全是依據兩個法的規範，用人機關針對業務需要涉及機密或是重大利益的，他們向他們的上級機關提出報告以後，在任用前，交給我們調查局，由我們調查局來執行特殊查核。"],["陳委員冠廷：由調查局來執行嘛，對不對？"],["余主任秘書尚賢：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：我今天就是要討論這個執行匡列合不合理的部分，由調查局來執行我覺得是沒有問題，畢竟查緝也是由調查局去查，但是現在一個問題就是說，各機關的提列方式是由各機關自行判斷，可是這代表什麼意思？第一個，認定標準不一，風險評估失衡，有些單位可能列的過少、低估風險，有些單位可能過度擴張、浪費資源。另外就是缺乏查核跟統一的資料庫，人員如果跨機關任職，或者是接觸不同的敏感業務的時候，沒有整合機制就沒有辦法追蹤、沒有辦法更新，沒有辦法看到他這個等級或者是他升職之後所應對的職務的敏感，怎麼去做這樣的認定？再來就是責任分散，你看最近這短短的一年多來有多少起，每個月就有一起重大共諜案，跨陸、海、空、憲兵，行政院、總統府、國安會全部都有，不是由用人機關來提出嗎？不是由他們來去做審查嗎？怎麼有些有審查、有些沒審查？所以我們要從制度上去根本的解決問題。其實我們也跟行政院討論過，是應該要有一個概括性的作法，應該是由法務部廉政署審查，然後由調查局去執行，為什麼我要講法務部廉政署？是不是各個機關都有政風？"],["余主任秘書尚賢：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：各個機關都有政風嘛，是不是各個機關的政風可以跟用人機構，用他們的專業、用他們法務部的專業去匡列哪些是需要查核的、哪些是需要更新的？如果沒有這樣一個主導機關的話，就會變成是形式上的這個查、這個不查，甚至是我身邊的秘書，我覺得為了要有效率起見，乾脆就把他的密等弄成普通，那樣就不用被查啦，不是這樣子嗎？過去國安會的諮詢委員不也是以這樣的查核辦法去勾選啊，儘管他可以接觸到很高的機密，儘管如果這些機密喪失可能會造成國家安全重大的損傷，但是用人單位決定嘛，他可以說我沒有這個專業啊，我又不是專門做調查的，我又不是要查共諜的。所以主秘，我很希望你回去跟法務部廉政署及各政風機關去討論，是不是由他們協同用人機關去匡列哪些職務需要查核、哪些需要用最高等級的查核、哪些用次等級的查核？"],["余主任秘書尚賢：是，謝謝委員指教，剛剛委員特別提到，這次我們依照行政院的指示，針對特殊查核辦法有一些調整，大概在範圍上、在內容上及頻次上，我們都會做一些調整。剛剛委員特別提到，我想以本局執行特殊查核的機關來講，我們還是一樣尊重用人機關提出的，但是在這次的辦法對於範圍會有一些修正，其實是把範圍擴大了，包括所有政務人員、包括機關主任秘書以上的官員及其辦公室的機要人員、約僱人員，只要涉及到接密的範圍，都會在這次納入查核的內容。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，這次我們要擴大嘛，是誰決定擴大哪些人需要查核的？"],["余主任秘書尚賢：這個可能是大家、各單位的共識。"],["陳委員冠廷：我的意思就是說，希望未來，就是我剛剛一直在強調的由政風單位去做，我剛剛講的由法務部廉政署去認定，這次是因為院長指示要擴大，這是正確的，擴大查核是一個很好的反制方式，這是該做而且我們已經真的把它完成，我們給你非常正面的評價。但是我現在講的就是說，未來還是要從制度面去做啊，不然就只能一直擴張，但不是這樣，必須是廉政署及下面各政風單位，不然以健保署來說，它怎麼知道誰要被查核，它沒有相關的專業，所以這個是我必須講的。","最後一點，因為時間有限，我已經超過時間了。我們現在講的是事後要怎麼樣去查緝，但是如果在這些敵方情報人員、敵對勢力情報人員先接觸的話，請問他們要向哪個單位報告？假設我是健保署的官員，我看到一個學者，他可能是從香港或者是第三國、第四國來跟我查探一些資訊，我覺得已經超越合理範圍，我要向哪一個部門去報告？我是一個公務人員的話。"],["余主任秘書尚賢：呃……"],["陳委員冠廷：理論上，是不是也是要由政風單位來先行處理？"],["余主任秘書尚賢：跟委員報告一下，有關剛剛委員提到的，如果有其他公務機關涉及到、接觸到這些所謂中共、我們敵對勢力的相關人員的話，其實是可以跟我們調查局提出檢舉，然後我們依法來偵辦。"],["陳委員冠廷：不是，我先講一下，我們是法治國家，所以如果我有所懷疑，其實我自己也常常想把我的懷疑去跟調查局講，但是如果沒有足夠的證據，只是有可疑情報人員來接觸的時候，因為沒有證據，這樣你們沒辦法立案，也沒辦法定罪嘛！因為他只是在詢問，你只是覺得他形跡可疑、只是覺得他可能會影響到我們的國家安全。美國反情報安全局就已經有一個標準的guideline，這個guideline裡面就規定，跟他們所屬類似政風單位的機關去報告，我們必須要有這個制度建立，才可以在事前就能夠預防嘛！"],["余主任秘書尚賢：是，以目前來講的話……"],["陳委員冠廷：這是建議啦！"],["余主任秘書尚賢：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員冠廷代）：我們請林楚茵委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-14","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","李坤城","林憶君","馬文君","張雅琳","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、海洋委員會、大陸委員會、法務部調查局報告「中國複合式威脅對我國家安全\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145001_00012"}}},{"id":"161412","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161412","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d181d234126a07c2ba5bff7037c8be0de48ff0cc24d356c57dbc0687e508e571daec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"09:51:53 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protest」？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們都有發表聲明，而且跟總裁會面的……"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有……那個牌子掛那裡啊！要抗議啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，我們在大會裡面做聲明的時候有明確表達，我想這個更讓所有參與的會員都能夠聽到我們的不滿，同時會後也有部分的會員國來表達……"],["賴委員士葆：我問你，它這樣子歧視我們、矮化我們，為什麼還要繳200萬？是怎樣啦？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想對於亞銀的部分，實質上……"],["賴委員士葆：請問200萬交了沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：名稱沒能夠改，我們當然……"],["賴委員士葆：請問200萬交了沒有，我問你，200萬交了沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前來說，第一個，200萬被刪了100萬，然後又被部分凍結，所以目前並沒有交，事實上這個部分我們是參與有關信託基金的部分……"],["賴委員士葆：交100萬就可以了啦，它對我們這麼不好！"],["莊部長翠雲：而對於亞銀的部分我們重在實質的參與，跟相關的會員國互相交流，而且善盡社會……"],["賴委員士葆：我們時間有限，請你簡短。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["賴委員士葆：現在你total要交多少錢？"],["莊部長翠雲：total？"],["賴委員士葆：對。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有啊，這個部分就是一年而已，就是我們捐助……"],["賴委員士葆：對，交100萬還是200萬？"],["莊部長翠雲：被砍了，只剩100萬。"],["賴委員士葆：只剩100萬？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["賴委員士葆：好，100萬可以啦，交100萬就好了。4月底你也跑去菲律賓renew它的租稅協定，避免雙重課稅，這件事對吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：關於這個部分，我們持續跟各國簽署相關的協定來避免雙重課稅，我們都持續在努力當中，對各個國家我們都一直在努力。"],["賴委員士葆：我講的這個對不對？我現在問你，我講的這個對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，這個部分確實如同委員所說的。"],["賴委員士葆：你已經去過啦，這不是什麼機密嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，去過了，但是後續還是要做相關的……"],["賴委員士葆：你去過了，回來……"],["莊部長翠雲：生效程序還要完成。"],["賴委員士葆：去過了回來就要讓大家知道，這是好事啊！你怎麼會怕？是怎麼樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，我的問題你沒有回答，我說這是好事，你怎麼回來不敲鑼打鼓一下？"],["莊部長翠雲：我也跟委員報告，簽署之後還有後面的生效程序，我們希望這個案子能夠成，因此跟菲方有一些默契，在生效之前……"],["賴委員士葆：所以不能太高調？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，生效之前我們彼此低調處理。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候生效？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我想他們的國會會做安排。"],["賴委員士葆：今年上半年可以生效吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，這個部分涉及其他國家的國會安排，我們不在這裡說。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我們不追問這個，新南向有18個國家，但是目前我們只有簽8個國家，其他10國什麼時候可以簽好？新南向、新南向，講得這麼重要！"],["莊部長翠雲：對於跟其他國家簽署租稅協定，我們都持續努力，雖然是8個國家，但是跟我們有貿易的金額，事實上占的比例是相當高的。"],["賴委員士葆：多高？"],["莊部長翠雲：投資率90%，對新南向國家……"],["賴委員士葆：所以其他不簽沒關係啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：也不能這樣講。"],["賴委員士葆：多簽啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們還會繼續努力。"],["賴委員士葆：多簽啦！這個很重要！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["賴委員士葆：請主計長一起，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員支持，不過我們旅費被砍了百分之六十多。"],["賴委員士葆：你先不要走，兩位長官一起。繼續問一下最近大家關心的一個題目──阿拉斯加。因為最近這兩天美國的財政部長貝森特說臺灣有非常好的提案，「呵咾甲會觸舌」，有夠讚啦！大家就很想知道是什麼，我猜就是這個，就是阿拉斯加，我們要跟它買天然氣，現在開始要買，昨天經濟部次長已經證實簽了MOU，我們每一年要從阿拉斯加多買600萬噸的天然氣，但是那個天然氣是從北極那邊下來的，從北極下來到阿拉斯加的港口總共是一千兩百多公里，這個管線要440億美金。川普總統要韓國、日本跟臺灣三個國家買單，日本、韓國到目前為止還沒答應，他們沒有說不答應，但是都還在考慮。我們已經簽MOU了，我們就說：「Yes,I do！沒有問題，だいじょうぶ」，所以美國當然高興啊！這個不是公司欸，你說我投資美國的公司，有賺錢我可以拿盈餘回來，拿股利回來，但這不是欸，這是美國的基礎建設，等於是我們白白替它蓋，要花多少錢？如果我們算三分之一，就是150億美金。","我請教主計長，你有錢嗎？你有150億美金可以替他們蓋、拉這條管線？主計長，有沒有這個錢？4,500億新臺幣左右。"],["陳主計長淑姿：像這種液化天然氣的東西，一般是由營業單位來吸收，就是看它的需求多少……"],["賴委員士葆：所以由中油吸收？中油已經賠錢賠成這樣了，它還要吸收？"],["陳主計長淑姿：所以我們還是應該要衡量一下，看是哪一個單位的需求。"],["賴委員士葆：我再跟兩位長官強調，它不是公司，今天如果是公司，我們就投資，未來它如果有賺錢，我可以分一點回來，這個可以考慮，但這個不是，這是白白替它蓋，就送給它了，從北極圈拉下來到阿拉斯加的港口，然後再從港口運到臺灣，我們另外再買600萬公噸的天然氣。這部分買就買，稍微平衡臺美的貿易順差、逆差，這個沒有人反對，可是這一段管線，老實講，我們現在沒有錢，老百姓會怎麼想？你都不給我1人1萬塊，你們計較得要命，美國爸爸要了4,500億，你就給它了，就變這個樣子，不管誰出的，就算是中油出，也是國家的錢，對不對？中油出也是國家的錢啊！主計長，所以你說營業單位……財政部，你知道這個事情嗎？財政部長知道嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：詳細的狀況我沒有接收到。"],["賴委員士葆：你沒進入狀況就對了。這個只有兩個方法，歲計賸餘或者是舉債嘛，舉債替美國蓋它的基礎建設，這個不是「盤仔」什麼才是「盤仔」？只因為它是美國爸爸，所以就無條件一定要替它蓋，就變成這樣子，你們現在來講就是斤斤計較。部長，你可以先回去了。","我最後跟主計長有一點對話，我要跟你講的就是，你斤斤計較，一直在講一百個理由、一千個理由，不給我們發現金。你可以看第一季的GDP，有夠讚！成長5.37%，第二季5%，這個是因為大家怕關稅的問題，所以提早出貨，第三季以後不知道。平均薪資4.7萬，是你們最近公布的，對不對？四萬七千多，最近公布的，請問中位數多少？"],["陳主計長淑姿：三萬八千多。"],["賴委員士葆：3萬8,900元，各位，這個才是實際的，平均薪資這樣，就變成是我們小老百姓可能沒有收入、是低收入戶，但他跟首富、臺灣最有錢的人加起來平均是4.7萬，結果我告訴你，有三分之二的勞工領不到平均薪資。同樣地，我們有一個國富普查，國家財富的統計，上個月底4月29日公布平均每一戶是1,889萬。各位好好看，你家裡有沒有1,889萬？其實中位數是多少？中位數才八百多萬而已，所以我現在要強調的結論就是，我們的平均薪資是4.7萬，你們剛公布的，可是中位數是3.8萬。我們的國富統計，平均一戶將近1,900萬，可是中位數只有800萬左右。主計總處能不能答應以後這兩個數字同時公布，不要只公布一個？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們是每四年公布一次。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，你要同時公布。你還在講國富，我現在在講工資啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：工資喔？"],["賴委員士葆：對啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：工資是每個月……"],["賴委員士葆：同時公布這兩個數字，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["賴委員士葆：否則你說我們經濟有夠讚，經濟發展有多讚，「呵咾甲會觸舌」，說是4.7萬，結果中位數是3.8萬，中位數才有意義，中位數才是老百姓的感覺，否則會想說「夭壽」喔！為什麼我領這麼少？人家是4.7萬，我才3.9萬而已，3.9萬還比中位數高。"],["陳主計長淑姿：報告委員，我們現在中位數也是每個月都公布。"],["賴委員士葆：要公布，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：有。"],["賴委員士葆：那個國富統計也是一樣，差很多，你看，每一戶是1,900萬，結果中位數才800萬，差有夠多，要讓老百姓知道實情，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳主計長淑姿：好。"],["主席：謝謝賴召委。接著請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":588,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","李彥秀","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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國家安全方面的所作所為，並且定調了中共的核心利益，其中內容涉及到社會穩定、兩岸立場及對外關係等等。針對其中的幾個問題，我想請教副局長跟副主委，請問這本國安白皮書的定位是什麼？是由哪一個機關所編製的？中共為什麼會在這個時間點發布這一本白皮書？又想藉此表達什麼樣的目的？"],["黃副局長明昭：據我們的瞭解，這是中共國安部所編製的，但透過國務院的新聞辦公室來對外發表。"],["陳委員俊宇：是他們的國安單位所編製的？"],["黃副局長明昭：對，國安部所編製的。"],["陳委員俊宇：內容我們已經有掌握了嗎？"],["黃副局長明昭：是，內容大概都有掌握到。"],["陳委員俊宇：這個全文大概是2萬2,000個字，其中涉臺的部分有提到他們堅持一中原則及九二共識，並重申反對臺獨，絕不承諾放棄武力的立場，也強調一些外部勢力積極在打臺灣牌。所以從目前瞭解到的部分來看，似乎沒有新的說法，請問我們怎麼樣來分析，從這個白皮書涉臺的內容來看，在態度上，我們認定他們是有軟化或是更加強硬的作法？"],["黃副局長明昭：基本上，涉臺的內容大概主要在第三章節裡面的「維護國家領土完整和海洋權益」，這一章節總共有343個字都是涉臺的，所提出的內容跟以往所論述的、對外講的大概都差不多，沒什麼改變。"],["陳委員俊宇：差不多？"],["黃副局長明昭：對。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。陸委會最新公布的中國大陸情勢報告當中有提到，習近平在4月中旬訪問東南亞的越南、馬來西亞及柬埔寨，當時他有批評貿易戰破壞了國際的體系，並且簽署多項的合作協議，其中，中共高層也在國際會議場上強調多邊主義的主張，尤其在關稅戰之下，中共是否藉機來塑造自己是一個可預期、可信賴的合作對象，並且積極的在拉攏貿易夥伴，企圖取得在國際上的另外一個話語權、另外一個地位，是不是這樣子？"],["黃副局長明昭：是，中共利用中美貿易戰，對這些受到關稅提高的國家，採取拉攏聯合的手法來應處美國的高關稅，它的目的是在這裡，聯合其他國家來對抗美國的高關稅。"],["陳委員俊宇：所以確定是這樣子嗎？"],["黃副局長明昭：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，最近這幾天美中之間的貿易談判也初步有一個結果，後續川普總統在白宮記者會上也說出對統一與和平也非常有利的言語，引發了許多討論和猜測。後續AIT也出面澄清，美國對臺的政策沒有改變，但有關美中的貿易談判是否會影響到對臺的政策，甚至會成為接下來川習之間的一個討論議題，我們國安局如何來評估這個情形？"],["黃副局長明昭：美國的國務院也對外說明這是聚焦在中美的貿易問題，不涉及到涉臺的問題。另外，AIT也對外說明，美國跟臺灣的關係是密不可分且牢固，幾十年都是一樣的，都沒有改變過，我想兩個單位的對外說明是很明確的。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。另外，5月13號在北京舉行了中國與拉丁美洲和加勒比海國家論壇，那是一個部長級的會議，臺灣在加勒比海有兩個邦交國，就是海地跟聖露西亞，他們也有派代表出席。不過根據媒體的報導，中國先前也在相同的活動上和臺灣有邦交的這些國家有交流互動，就近期的觀察，中共在國際上是否有加大力道來接觸我們臺灣友邦，並且進一步展開外交上的攻勢？對於中共拉攏親中的國家，持續以一中原則來壓縮臺灣的主權地位和國際參與，並且針對2758號決議文有更積極的行為，近期內也有索馬利亞拒絕我國護照的案例，對於這個部分，我們國安單位有沒有掌握到相關的情勢？對於我們要如何來因應有沒有什麼想法？"],["黃副局長明昭：有關中拉的部長級會議，我們在拉美、加勒比海的友邦大概只有兩個國家去參與，一個是聖露西亞，不過他是政黨代表來參加，另一個是海地有去參加，另外的幾個友邦就不派人去參加，所以我們跟拉美及加勒比海幾個國家的關係目前還是滿牢固的，應該是沒有疑問。","另外，針對會中所草擬的宣言裡面有提到所謂一中什麼什麼之類的，我們幾個友邦都沒有做這樣的連署或支持，甚至要求要修改。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，所以看起來他們派去出席的並非正式的一個代表團，只是一個政黨級的代表人物。"],["黃副局長明昭：對。"],["陳委員俊宇：剛剛副局長回答的非常完整，副主委有沒有要針對剛剛提問的問題稍微做個簡單的說明？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：非常謝謝委員的指教，我大概補充幾個點，第一個，我們國內確實非常關注川普總統突然提到了unification跟peace這兩個字，根據我們內部的研判或者請教了一些學者專家，特別也瞭解了一下美國相關智庫的一些想法，全文的講話不應該被去脈絡化解讀，也就是，我們發現通篇的談話主要都還是鎖定在美國跟中國的關稅議題或者是貿易議題，所以他的整個架構並沒有牽涉到地緣政治，更沒有牽涉到臺海的部分，所以這個unification不應該被擴大解讀為是川普總統有可能會在未來兩岸關係上面拋出這樣的一種想法跟定調，所以我們還是建議在這個議題上面要繼續讓子彈再飛一下。","另外第二個，剛剛委員特別有提到，有沒有可能經貿的部分外溢到地緣政治上面的一個變化，我們觀察到習近平確實在關稅戰爆發之後就到東南亞國家走了一遍，我們也看到中共近期外交動作頻頻，特別要關注到的有可能是他利用這個時間點去建構所謂的全球南方。在關稅戰的部分，影響了中國商品的輸出，我們內部也有特別注意到，最近看到中國有一些商品加註了西班牙文，所以有可能未來他們要銷售的對象是放棄美國市場，然後改以拉丁美洲國家為主，這個部分我們陸委會也會協同相關的部會去密切關注。"],["陳委員俊宇：都有掌握當中？"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝副主委。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員俊宇：對於中共不斷的文攻武嚇、滲透，甚至擾臺的行為，我們也希望國安單位的所有主管一定要確實的掌握訊息，以確保我們國家的安全。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":254,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-14","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","陳永康","陳俊宇","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","李坤城","林憶君","馬文君","張雅琳","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、海洋委員會、大陸委員會、法務部調查局報告「中國複合式威脅對我國家安全\n之影響」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145001_00012"}}},{"id":"161409","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161409","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d1815b90efed3e01298206b4d24be0a63bec095f14eb3eda5a540feb37a46d737cc75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:44:08 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有關身心障礙者在職場的合理調整行政指導，我們認為這部分也會有幫助，如果有更多的職場可以在合理調整上做得更好，也會有所幫助。再來，其實現在我們在擬定規劃職業重建服務對象，包括整體職業重建服務量能、包括職務再設計部分，我們希望能夠做得更仔細。我想這些都是希望能讓身心障礙者在就業上可以更精進的作法，而不是僅限於既有的。"],["林委員月琴：部長，我相信你也了解，其實私人事業單位跟公務體系一樣，都有定額進用制度。可是臺灣產業的中小企業比較多，所以開出來的職缺相對少，為什麼？因為中小企業要滿一百人才會聘用一名身心障礙者，甚至有些雇主就直接繳錢，不聘身心障礙者。所以勞動部應該要思考的是，有沒有真的讓身心障礙者……而不是以庇護工廠的工作來作為他們的就業機會。"],["洪部長申翰：我剛才跟委員所報告的並沒有特別提到庇護工廠，當然庇護工廠是另外一個區塊。但就我剛才講到的定額進用包括職場的合理調整、包括很直接的職業重建，這些都是高度專業，我們希望把這些專業的能量做得更好。"],["林委員月琴：我再提醒部長，精障者在人際溝通上是有一些困難的，就此勞動部未來有什麼對策？畢竟他們在職場中有時候會碰到這樣子的障礙。"],["劉組長玉儀：我們有辦理精障者社區支持計畫，並透過精障者的支持性就業服務來協助他們順利進入一般職場……"],["林委員月琴：不好意思，我聽不太到。"],["劉組長玉儀：我們有辦理精障者社區支持計畫，並透過精障者的支持性就業服務來協助他們順利轉銜到一般職場。"],["林委員月琴：最後，針對外籍家庭看護工的照顧訓練與精進作法上，本席想請教，移工的照顧服務訓練不是在比誰上課的時數多，是看授課後的結果。請問，移工海外訓練的結果能具備本國照顧服務員的功力嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：就訓練時數來說，我認為跟本國照顧服務員在技能上還是會有差距。"],["林委員月琴：所以該如何補足？之所以在國外訓練，為的是進入本國後能立即上工。"],["洪部長申翰：就訓練來說，我們可以做課程強化，不過這需要與母國相關單位合作。確實沒錯，跟本國訓練比起來，包括受訓強度在內，甚至薪資都還有落差，這是目前確實的狀況。"],["林委員月琴：勞動部對海外訓練中心有無查驗制度？知道其上課內容嗎？如何確保品質？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，就整體移工政策來說，我們正在做整體檢討，包括是不是能多瞭解海外招募、包括檢或訓的能量，這部分現在確實在檢討中。"],["林委員月琴：另外，關於海外訓練的時數跟收費狀況，勞動部有掌握嗎？如何確保時數灌水不是為了多收錢？"],["黃署長齡玉：跟委員說明，海外訓練原則上由海外仲介公司所提供，移工入臺之後我們發現，雇主普遍反應他們在語言方面及技能方面不夠成熟。所以本署也針對這部分提供入境後的學科及語言方面的訓練時數，有實體的也有數位課程，均可供雇主選擇。所以目前我們有開辦，也有一定的訓練量，相關資料我們可以提供給委員參考。"],["林委員月琴：再麻煩。最後這四項是我一直很關注與期待的，後面的相關資料再麻煩提供給本席，特別是就業促進也麻煩部長多費心，以上，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝林委員。"],["主席：接下來請陳菁徽委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":560,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","郭國文","廖偉翔","陳瑩","楊曜","范雲"],"page_start":447,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算決議有關勞動部主管預算凍結報告案 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長早安。今天是我們故宮預算的解凍，院長有沒有信心今天的解凍案可以順利通過？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上預算可以順利解凍對故宮來講是好消息，可是故宮怎麼樣把工作做好本來就是我們的本業。"],["陳委員秀寳：本席希望今天故宮的解凍案可以像上次文化部一樣很順利啦！主要是在4月30號，故宮業務報告時院長也說了，其實目前有一些業務是難以執行的狀況，所以希望在野黨委員今天對故宮、對文化藝術能夠高抬貴手，能夠順利地達成解凍。","首先針對故宮的解凍報告內容請教院長，一直以來，教文委員跟本席都一直努力，希望故宮可以拉近文物跟兒少之間的距離。故宮辦了兒童日，也辦了兒童諮詢會議等，做了這些努力，還有你們在解凍報告裡面有提到目前你們跟小公視有合作，希望可以拉近與青少年之間的距離。這個部分本席予以肯定，也支持，希望最後呈現的結果是引起青少年好的迴響，也鼓勵你們要繼續，故宮應該持續跟小公視洽談類似這樣子的合作。","這邊要建議的是，我們要拉近青少年與文物、文化或是故宮博物館的距離，我們還可以透過繪本的方式，故宮博物院有沒有考慮以國寶為中心發展系列繪本？這個你們有沒有規劃過？"],["蕭院長宗煌：故宮的兒童繪本當然數量比較多，因為以前專業的藝術出版品比較多，所以今年我們跟聯經數位合作的有《從前從前皇帝有座動物園》、《從前從前皇帝有座遊樂園》等等，我們會有一系列的出版品；另外也跟康軒出版了《紅豆妮綠豆兵勇闖故宮：院史篇──超時空搜索隊》以及《紅豆妮綠豆兵勇闖故宮1：翠玉白菜的失竊危機》兩本漫畫。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以院長現在的意思就是你們也有朝這個方向在努力？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["陳委員秀寳：就是我們跟作者、跟出版社配合，提供青少年繪本等相關讀物。在網站上搜了一下，這樣相關文物的兒童繪本基本上不多，是沒有對外公開發行，還是你們只是跟出版商合作在一些比較侷限性的兒童讀物裡面去呈現？針對這個部分，我會希望你們應該要用一種比較貼近兒童生活化的方式，將故宮的文物介紹出去，我們培養年輕的孩子對傳統藝術文物的欣賞以及興趣，這個部分你們會不會朝這樣來規劃？"],["蕭院長宗煌：這就是我們未來的目標，未來的話，我自己還在想，每一個專業的展覽，除了展覽畫冊之外，能不能有一個專門為兒童做的小小導覽，或是類似過去的學習單這樣一個小冊子。我們未來會規劃，這樣的話才可以比較順暢，每一個展覽都有一個配套，而不是另外去跟廠商合作、跟出版商合作去做兒童讀物。"],["陳委員秀寳：這也是一個方向，主要就是我們要讓年紀比較小的孩子，有機會藉由這樣子比較簡單、圖文並茂的繪本認識我們的文物，也讓他們即便沒有親眼看到這些文物也可以朗朗上口，知道我們有哪一些是很珍貴的文物、很珍貴的國寶。既然有這樣子的規劃，我也希望就朝這個方向來努力。"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，我們看出版品的數量夠不夠，然後送給教文會的每一位委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝，那你就送到每一個委員的辦公室。","接下來要跟您討論的是在故宮百年院慶特別架設的網站上面，我們發現這個內容跟故宮原本官網裡面的內容大同小異，包含票價、交通資訊、展覽等內容，是本來官網上面就有的，甚至連文物典藏的部分也幾乎跟官網上沒有什麼差別。故宮架設這個百年院慶的網站應該不是把原來官網的資訊放上去，你們後續會陸續更新嗎？現在是5月，後面7、8、9、10月，你們會有相關的更新嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，因為網路的特性，基本上來講就是串聯，「故宮100+」這個網站進去，當然它的交通資訊這個東西一定是一樣的，因為我們沒有必要重新設計一個頁面讓人家誤解這是兩個單位，所以它用串聯就可以，這是網路上的特性。在「故宮100+」的網站上，我們增加了很多東西，譬如說故宮百年大事記，還有老照片，然後包括瀑布流的文物點選，但是做了這個東西以後，並不是百年就結束了，我們會把它回饋到官網，所以大家會覺得好像怎麼都一樣，但是因為新故宮計畫我們是新開發的部分，新開發的部分就是兩邊都可以點得到，從官網可以到新故宮網站，從新故宮網站也可以到官網，所以基本上的元素是一樣的，可是有新增的部分，並不是沒有。"],["陳委員秀寳：說到新增的部分，本席有注意到你們上面有一個比較特別的3D文物賞析。"],["蕭院長宗煌：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：上面已經有92件文物有3D建模的展示。"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，但是這個東西，我就會把它連結到官網，官網也可以看得到，所以就變成好像兩個是一樣的，但這就是網路的特性。"],["陳委員秀寳：那我想請教，關於專門架設的百年院慶網站，在之後它還會一直提供給民眾相關訊息……"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，就是我剛剛跟委員報告的，100+並不是100就結束了，而是說會把它回饋到官網，整合在官網裡面。"],["陳委員秀寳：剛才本席提過的3D文物賞析，你們這個做得滿細緻的，就是在文物上面有標示詳細的說明，這個部分我也肯定你們的努力，這樣的3D展示方式讓沒有辦法親自到故宮的民眾也可以看到文物的風采。後續會陸續增加相關文物的展示嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：有，我們現在做億萬畫素的掃描，基本上來講，就是為了讓文物的3D呈現可以更豐富。過去的拍攝也許就是四個面向、八個面向，沒有辦法完整呈現，我們現在就是更增加它的拍攝角度，相對的話成本會增加，速度當然也不會那麼快，我們會精選故宮比較精彩的展品先做，然後慢慢再做。"],["陳委員秀寳：會陸續增加。也希望我們趁這一次將文物結合科技的運用，用這樣子數位化的方式保存，也可以吸引其他國家的遊客到故宮參觀。","接下來要跟您討論關於參觀人數。2月份博物館參觀人數排名，故宮只有排名第五名，參觀人數更不到排第一名的海洋科技博物館的三分之一，故宮有沒有發現這個狀況，你們有沒有檢討出什麼原因導致故宮的魅力不再？"],["蕭院長宗煌：每一個博物館都在努力，故宮的魅力不再，因為故宮比較老，所以我們也是希望老怎麼樣可以創新。對於遊館的人數增加，我們當然是非常高興，可是像海科館，因為它有三個館區，三個館區是算一個人次，但故宮有南院、北院，可是我們南院、北院都分開算，所以這個部分當然是一個方式。另外，怎麼樣增加故宮的參訪人數，我們一直很努力，我們當然是從我們的研究，然後展覽、推廣、行銷，各個方面去努力，希望把遊客找回來。"],["陳委員秀寳：因為1到3月參觀人數大概只有近50萬，這是北院的部分，跟您當初茶敘的時候希望達到的人數還有一段不小的差距，表示剩下的9個月，我們北院至少還要有200萬人次到訪，才能達到您之前預期的目標，這個比去年一整年的參觀人數都還要多。現在有什麼策進方案吸引民眾有興趣到故宮來參觀？"],["蕭院長宗煌：故宮的話，去年我們預估的人次也是250萬，但是只有一百八十幾萬，就差了六、七十萬，這個部分當然是因為我們預估的入境人數沒有到達預期。故宮的觀眾跟入境人數有一個消長，可是我們不能一直等那個，現在來講，原來入境人數占故宮參觀的七成，現在的話大概是五成，所以少了兩成的入境人數，我們希望把國內的人數拉起來去彌補。去年「故宮100+」有兩個大展，所謂的大展就是去年大美不言跟今年的大都會，這兩個展覽，去年的大美不言有超過60萬人次，今年的大都會預估大概有40萬人次。"],["陳委員秀寳：這邊也要請教院長，你們大都會博物館名作展在電視上是有宣傳的，這個部分有沒有跟其他博物館或文化部推出相關的套票行程或是文化幣的優惠方案，藉此吸引我們國內的觀眾？"],["蕭院長宗煌：有套票的行程跟文化部的方案，都有，甚至時藝跟聯合數位文創彼此兩個大展都有在做套票，套票做得非常廣泛，文化幣的部分也是有。"],["陳委員秀寳：我想問院長，這次故宮百年院慶相關的文創商品，過去本席跟其他委員都一直非常關心，這次跟美國大都會博物館的合作有沒有推出故宮跟大都會博物館特色的文創商品？"],["蕭院長宗煌：有，但是這個文創商品基本上來講是我們的合作單位跟大都會授權的，然後由他們在那個特展期間去發行販賣。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以大概是什麼商品？不會又像筆記本這種很沒有創意的，民眾也不會買。"],["蕭院長宗煌：我看到很多人買。"],["陳委員秀寳：院長，您看圖片上面右手邊有一隻棒棒糖，它是一隻棒棒糖，在封膜上面印了一個娃娃，你知道這隻娃娃是什麼嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：那個是……"],["陳委員秀寳：這個娃娃是翠玉白菜。"],["蕭院長宗煌：是故宮的小翠。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實看到這樣的商品，我真的覺得你想吸引什麼樣的客群？是小朋友還是……"],["蕭院長宗煌：報告委員，故宮有不同的受眾，所以我們從老人家到小朋友都有，小朋友很喜歡的。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，小朋友很喜歡。這邊要提醒院長，美國大都會博物館是世界三大博物館之一，雙方這次能夠合作，我是非常肯認故宮過去的努力，但也希望我們抓住這次特展的機會，要讓民眾願意來故宮參訪，也要吸引民眾願意購買相關的文創商品回去紀念，而且能夠提高故宮的收入，所以我們在文創商品的設計、在文創商品的推展上面也要非常地用心，不要錯過這麼難得的機會。如果你只做一些非常簡單也很稀鬆平常的文創品，其實有時候對民眾來講真的不具吸引力。這個部分我也希望你們要把握機會。"],["蕭院長宗煌：是，跟委員報告，其實故宮的文創商品數量蠻多的，針對大都會也會有文創商品，我們不怕人家買，只怕大家買不完。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，如果院長有這樣的做法、規劃、想法，那也很好，鼓勵你們，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員質詢，感謝，官員請回座。","接下來有請劉書彬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-11","speakers":["葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","劉書彬","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","范雲","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國立故宮博物院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1144901_00003"}}},{"id":"161407","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161407","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d18137371d2b4ef56ede139dba296d6b924f095f14eb3eda5a54a97a7da599bb11f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:37:34 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包含請專家學者跟地方政府來開會，我們也把指標、權重及調整係數等非常細節的部分都拿出來討論，當然部分地方政府還是有不同的意見，這部分都還要凝聚共識，這個確實是這樣子的。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以還會再繼續這個工作？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，當然以目前來說，對於新版財劃法所造成的相關爭議，包括中央跟地方的財權分配，但事權沒有做調整，它會影響到中央的施政以及水平分配各地方政府之間沒有達到區域均衡發展的目的，行政院已經決定要提出釋憲，目前財政部已經在進行有關釋憲的前置準備作業。"],["吳委員秉叡：本院的兩黨聯盟是實質多數，它現在如果更進一步威嚇說，你如果不屈從，它就刪你的預算、凍你的預算、找你其他的麻煩，你要怎麼辦？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想刪預算、凍預算，最後受傷害的是人民，因為政府的施政是為人民服務，不管是稅務、關務、國務以及我們各項的業務，都是為民眾服務，刪跟凍最後受傷的是民眾。"],["吳委員秉叡：邏輯是這樣沒有錯，問題它不顧這一些啊！它就是要給你難看，讓你施政困難，就是用這樣的方式在找麻煩，它現在不就事論事。如果在水平分配上面的指標繼續進行，你有業務上的需要，這個經費夠嗎？因為你還要再跟地方政府開會啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：當然我們需要經費才能夠持續推動。"],["吳委員秉叡：你自己估計還要多久的時間才可以把各項指標收攏到你認為可以制定成公式的狀況？"],["莊部長翠雲：就財政部來說，在水平分配的指標部分，我們做詳細的規劃跟精進，但是以整體財劃法來說，它還涉及到……"],["吳委員秉叡：我知道，垂直分配、事權分配那一部分你剛剛有講，先不論那個，光是橫向的、水平的各個縣市政府之間的分配指標，你估計還要多久時間才可以訂出一個大家可能比較可以接受的標準？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們覺得還是要持續，至於時間的部分……"],["吳委員秉叡：沒有估過？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，沒有辦法具體做一個時間表。"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟你說，那個真的很困難。"],["莊部長翠雲：確實是很困難。"],["吳委員秉叡：馬政府8年、蔡政府8年，一樣都達不到這個，因為只要談到分配，每個人都希望自己的地方多分一些，所以這個我是覺得已經把它完全做成政治的攻防，要注意這一點，你們要避免被操弄成政治的攻防。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：再來還有一點，剛剛也有委員提到，關於今年的稅收狀況，如果實徵數超過預算數3,000億，它還要立法要怎麼樣、怎麼樣、怎麼樣，把行政院的預算權全部都瓜分掉。再來，我要求你預算編列寧願列高、寧願達不到目標，不要被他們拿來政治操弄說3,000億還稅於民。還稅於民的定義是要還給繳稅的人，怎麼被拿來這樣子分配呢？這肉桶政治嘛！其實中華民國是租稅法定主義，這很清楚，大家都知道，財政部所收的稅，每一毛錢、每一塊錢都必須是法律明定可以收的才可以收。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：這沒有什麼超收的問題，基本上就是法律規定該收的稅就收，這個哪裡有超過？沒有一毛錢是不應該收的啊！所謂超過的部分是超過預算數，預算是一個估計數。我舉一個例子，小弟本人今年預計要賺200萬來養家活口，結果到年底我一結算，哇！真不好意思，我今年業績比較好，或是其他外快比較多，上了比較多的電視或比較多的訪談、比較多的演講，我變成收入210萬，你可以說那10萬塊是多拿的，那個都送給國家嗎？邏輯上這個就是不通，因為預算就是一個估計數，我在這個地方講，他們老是要拿這個東西來做文章、來做政治的攻防。你可不可以將估計數估高一點？就避免掉這一種無謂的政治攻防，在那邊無理取鬧啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：我想財政部在估稅課收入的時候，每年都會根據相關的一些參數來估計，一定要核實估計。"],["吳委員秉叡：稅課收入訂得高，若收不到那個標準，國稅局的人會被懲處嗎？有這個規定嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不會，我想不會這樣子，但是對整個財政資源的運用來說，也是會有影響。"],["吳委員秉叡：還是你們會把他的考績打得比較差？比如臺北國稅局局長的預算數應該要收5,000億，結果只有收到4,800億，因為達不到目標，所以他的考績要打╳，有這個規定嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然不會，因為稅是按照法律規定來收的。"],["吳委員秉叡：是啊！既然如此，你們何不把它高估，至少要估得高一點，達不到，只收到98%、99%，沒關係啊！超過預算數現在變成有罪，被拿來操弄啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，確實不應該，因為事實上，我們的實徵數超過預算數並不表示財政有餘裕，還要看整體的歲出，以及還要做債務還本。"],["吳委員秉叡：財政有沒有餘裕是看它當時訂了什麼課題啦！它今天要跟你講國債很多的時候，就說你財政很糟糕；今天要做其他議題的時候，就跟你講多很多，要分回去，這個是先有結論再找理由的啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：先射箭再畫靶。我在這邊再一次地懇求你……"],["莊部長翠雲：不敢。"],["吳委員秉叡：我們寧願略為高估一點，達不到目標，大家都知道是為了要避免這種政治操弄嘛！達不到目標，也沒有人要去追究、也沒有人去怪罪，你會怪罪宋署長嗎？你會怪罪五區國稅局局長嗎？應該不會吧！"],["莊部長翠雲：不會，因為課稅都要依法律。"],["吳委員秉叡：大家都是明理人，我們都是依照法律收稅的啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：再來一個議題是，現在要給你訂定一個法律，如果實徵數超過預算數3,000億以上，錢要怎麼花、怎麼花，它都幫你想好了呢！"],["莊部長翠雲：是不好的，對整個國家財政不是一個好事。"],["吳委員秉叡：根本是完全沒有邏輯，而且很奇怪，就是利用資訊的落差，利用一般人沒有那麼關心財稅的問題，然後就說有一筆錢，好大一筆，我們大家來花吧！大家拿刀來砍吧！看誰能夠分到比較多。就是這樣子的一個邏輯，然後就說：你看，我幫你們多爭取了這麼多，所以你們要感謝我，我這個民意代表當得很棒啊！看起來邏輯就是這樣，這是很離譜的，希望你能夠堅持原則，加油，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝秉叡。","接著請賴士葆召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":588,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","李彥秀","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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討論這件事情……"],["陳委員昭姿：我要的是你的態度……"],["洪部長申翰：尤其是早療跟身障兒童在照顧方面的門檻比較高……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我在講背後的……很多事都是跨部會的。"],["洪部長申翰：對，它會涉及到……所以就跨部會的角度來說，我們願意跟衛福部來做這個事情的討論。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，你願意做這件事情。"],["洪部長申翰：我們願意跟衛福部討論這個議題，看怎麼樣協助早療跟身障兒童更多，可是這可能不是單一片面……"],["陳委員昭姿：很寶貝、很照顧他們……"],["洪部長申翰：但它是一個整體的照顧政策。"],["陳委員昭姿：勞工真的很辛苦，需要你們好好照顧。","最後一個問題，口罩國家隊──宏瑋爆出經營不善，有員工控訴他們突然沒了工作、沒了收入，去跟勞工局申請失業補助時才知道宏瑋根本沒有幫他們繳勞、健保費。過去我們三不五時就會聽到經營不善，然後勞工失業了、沒有繳勞、健保費；換句話說，這些公司沒有繳勞、健保費，對於這件事情，勞動部、地方勞工局都沒有辦法預防嗎？你看他們勞、健保費繳不出來就知道經營有問題了，為什麼要到最後爆炸了呢？讓勞工直接去面對呢？"],["白局長麗真：跟委員說明，站在確保勞工權益上面，如果公司今天有從勞工的薪資裡面扣繳保費而沒有繳交給勞保局，依據勞保條例第十七條規定，只要勞工提出相關證明文件一樣可以保險給付，權益不受影響。"],["陳委員昭姿：不是，它沒有繳勞、健保費，那你說讓業者……你們應該要防範啊，還是等它出問題了才處理？他們勞、健保費欠繳就讓它欠繳？墊償基金欠繳就讓他們欠繳？等出事了、勞工失業了，勞工自己再來救濟，這是方法嗎？你們不是在最後的時候……"],["白局長麗真：委員，我這邊再做一個補充，勞保局平常在做保費的催繳，如果遇到投保單位欠費達一定程度，我們會依相關法令規定通知地方主管機關……"],["陳委員昭姿：我的意思是，你們就知道他們經營不善嘛，某個程度就要去關注跟處理這個問題，不然受害的就是勞工，而且勞工根本不知道他的老闆沒有幫他繳勞、健保費，我的重點在這個地方。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，因為你現在談的是保費，關於保費的部分，我們當然有一定程度去要求他們趕快來補繳……"],["陳委員昭姿：但是受害勞工……"],["洪部長申翰：對於經營不善的部分，其實坦白說，欠繳的企業也不見得都是經營不善的，我們看到有些經營不錯的也欠繳……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你們可以有一些機制先稍微看看，有些沒有繳的，他們出問題的機會很高……"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為你們要照顧勞工基本權益嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：所以我們可以來看，如果欠繳時間比較長的話，我們可以重點關注，我想這部分我們可以……"],["陳委員昭姿：你可以做吧？"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以重點關注。"],["陳委員昭姿：勞動部要保護勞工，就知道路會走到那裡，那我們現在就讓這條路不要走下去。"],["洪部長申翰：我們可以重點關注，如果有欠繳時間比較長的。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請林月琴委員來詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":560,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-11","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","黃秀芳","林淑芬","王正旭","郭國文","廖偉翔","陳瑩","楊曜","范雲"],"page_start":447,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00012"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算決議有關勞動部主管預算凍結報告案 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去年是不是已經成定數？"],["莊部長翠雲：關於今年的稅收，其實我們原來編的預算是超過113年的實徵數九百多億，我們在預算的編列上已經比去年的實徵數來得高，以到4月來說的話，全國的部分確實比去年同期減少大概85億，主要是證交稅的部分，因為證交稅的日均量比原來我們所預估的日均量來得低，目前1到4月的日均量是三千九百多億，跟去年的4,600億是有差距，我想……"],["林委員德福：所以只有證交稅有影響，其他都沒有影響？"],["莊部長翠雲：主要是我們現在看到所收的數字跟有影響的部分是證交稅，其他的部分變動不大，至於像遺產稅跟贈與稅都是屬於機會稅，這個不能夠當做……"],["林委員德福：部長、主計長，目前還是未定數啦，怎麼講呢？對岸他們硬邦邦、死板板，結果你看川普他就降了，而且降到讓人民有感，但是我們的政府幾乎是人家要你站著，你就趴著；人家要你坐著，你就跪著。講實在話，最近我看社論和一些評論，對我們政府現在這樣的操作方式真的極不能接受，我們希望經濟要提升，至於怎麼提升，該硬還是要硬，而不是軟趴趴的，人家講一，我們做到三給人家，那個不通的啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：對於關稅政策，在4月2號川普政府公布以後，針對對等關稅臺灣達到32%這個部分，行政院也緊急邀集各部會提出了支持方案，主要是對產業的支持，就是穩定產業、安定民心……"],["林委員德福：那個是最重要的。"],["莊部長翠雲：至於後續的諮商，相信也會在維持我們產業競爭力的前提之下去跟美國溝通。另外對非關稅的貿易壁壘部分，我們也會做一個好的安排。"],["林委員德福：你看日本、韓國他們有多硬，我們從媒體各方面都看得清清楚楚，只有我們是軟趴趴的，政府不應該有這樣的態度，我希望你們要硬起來，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員。","接續請吳秉叡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":588,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","李彥秀","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra 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window？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對不起。資安的通報是各個人員發現資安問題後，就要通報資安的承辦人、科長、主任，最後會通報資安長，然後資安長會告訴我……"],["葛委員如鈞：很好。"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，這個部分故宮承認我們在文件上，因為我已經把故宮所有的相關法規彙整成一個法規彙編，但是新興的部分沒有被納入，我會回去檢討，把它做成一個完整的資安通報流程及標準作業程序。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝。院長，我們一起努力，因為不管是數位還是任何形式的國寶，如果在未來遭駭客入侵都有可能會影響民眾的權益，所以我們真的要及早準備，到時候才能儘速應變。關於這個應變的過程，剛剛您提到的很多細節在圖像上都沒有，所以希望您請同仁再補上。","另外我想問一下，假設真的發生資安事件，您知道應該多久之內要通報數發部嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：知悉一個小時內。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，謝謝。按照數發部的規定確實是要在一個小時內，那您知道之前發生的圖檔外洩事件，故宮經過多久才通報數發部嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對不起，因為這個是在我到任之前，據我瞭解，因為那時候他們發現這個不是資安通報裡面的典型案例，所以沒有通報，但是後來我問了數發部部長，他說可以用其他通報，所以後來才去通報，因此落差時間的確是蠻長的。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，274天。我還是要給蕭院長您一個鼓勵，我確認過您通報的時間，是在您上任之後一小段時間就立刻通報，我覺得這個還是好的。但是事實上，您可以看一下112年3月14日，其實院內的同仁對資安事件的認定，跟外界、跟專業、跟資安署有一點不同，這個事件在資安署的認定就是二級事件，並不是非駭客入侵就不算資安事件。不管是在現場的同仁或是看直播的同仁，我希望全部的人、全國都要一起瞭解，並不是只有駭客入侵才是資安事件，資安署關於這個部分的認定都非常清楚。我是不是可以很明確的表示，院長未來能否加強資安教育？兩週之內能不能向本席提出一個完整的規劃？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好。跟委員報告，因為這個不是資安的外侵事件，而是內部作為的疏失，基本上這是一個嚴重的情況，所以我們也有給同仁相關的議處。另外有關委員提到的資安教育訓練，我們一直在做，也會給委員一個完整的報告。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，這個再麻煩您了。接下來最後一段，因為現在是解凍案的期間，其中一個案子是新故宮計畫，其實我們理解也希望可以繼續推動，但是現在新故宮專案的計畫進度跟計畫的內容好像有點脫鉤，我想確認一下這個計畫經費107.47億，執行期間從107年到116年，能不能如期規劃完成？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我跟委員報告，關於這部分剛剛也報告過了，原來的按照計畫在進行，可是因為故宮的正館被臺北市政府定為歷史建築跟文化景觀，具有文資身分，所以都要重新經過臺北市文資局的文資委員會審查，因審查的過程有點延宕，所以正館的整修應該會有一點延遲。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，其實我們也理解到了，你們可能要啟動第四次行政院修正計畫，對不對？現在期程到底怎麼樣？什麼時候可以完成報院的核定？能不能趕上115年的預算編列作業？如果沒有辦法完成，到時候要審明年預算到底在審什麼？我審的部分可能你根本還沒報院，所以有沒有可能趕得及？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，總預算原來的107億現在還可以順利推行，目前的工作階段……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有，我說你之後的修正，因為你現在的計畫已經跟之前都不一樣了。"],["蕭院長宗煌：之後的修訂，基本上要在文資審議同意進行可以發包的時候，才去編列相關的預算。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以來不來得及？因為我們現在看到的這個第四版其實已經改了三次，北院擴建的計畫和既有的計畫有七點不一樣，南院國保館的興建計畫也有六點不一樣。我想問個很明確的問題，在115年的預算審查之前來不來得及報院？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上我們已經提出115年的預算，但並沒有納在裡面，可是因為公建計畫是一個延續性的計畫，原來的經費預算還是可以運用，所以不會影響到整個公建……"],["葛委員如鈞：計畫內容變來變去也沒關係？"],["蕭院長宗煌：不是，你最後的話……"],["葛委員如鈞：不用報院嗎？不用報到行政院嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：當然要，可是因為現在的工項還沒有到那邊，所以不會影響到那個部分。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們是希望要完成報院才能審預算。最後幫忙你們一下，因為昨天審AI基本法，跨黨派的委員都很重視我們的主權AI訓練語料庫，數發部有在進行。請問數發部有沒有主動跟故宮洽談相關的語料、資料、圖庫等？有沒有找故宮？有或沒有？"],["蕭院長宗煌：這個部分的話，我們有跟TAIDE連結，然後在會議上是有……"],["葛委員如鈞：這個是新的東西，訓練語料庫。代理主席不好意思，馬上好，因為這個大家都很關心。"],["蕭院長宗煌：語料庫的部分，回去我請同仁再跟數發部那邊加強聯繫，看看怎麼樣可以導入。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們也在此鼓勵數發部主動跟故宮聯繫，故宮有非常多的重要資產跟資料，可以幫助臺灣本地的主權AI進行訓練，故宮跟數發部就串在一起，我們一起聯繫。謝謝院長，謝謝代理主席。"],["蕭院長宗煌：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員，謝謝院長。"],["主席（葛委員如鈞）：接下來有請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-11","speakers":["葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","劉書彬","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳沛憶","范雲","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥"],"page_start":155,"meetingDate":["2025-05-15"],"gazette_id":"1144901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1144901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國立故宮博物院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案7案","agenda_id":"1144901_00003"}}},{"id":"161399","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161399","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/fcea13637980d1819b171918696d6adb581586c022403610095f14eb3eda5a546a2d8103b2bcc79e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:12:24 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