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這個在選罷法98條有所以選罷法98條可能我先幫部長回覆一下王委員好 那一樣我想說因為我剛剛聽王委員的問題我覺得我有興趣所以我想就接著往下問幾個問題就是那剛剛所提到的如果說我們部長需不需要先看一下98條就我們時間可以先暫停就是選罷法98條時間先暫停"},{"start":67.799,"end":69.983,"text":"對 先暫停 先讓他們看一下條文"},{"start":88.797,"end":104.265,"text":"那我就順著那個王委員的問題就是那如果說我們現在看的98條第一項第二款那如果說今天我們是用一個非法的方式叫大家來罷免或不來罷免你看其實他是符合98條第一項第二款"},{"start":105.305,"end":116.921,"text":"我就跟部長報告一下所以說如果前面有違反個資去收集到相關的資訊然後再拿違反個資所取得的資訊來做後續的傳播訊息等等的動作其實是有問題的"},{"start":122.048,"end":147.998,"text":"我再跟部長報告一下部長你們應該要稍微了解嘛而且另外調局你們這個應該也可以列為選舉查查的合分因為你們前面很多動作都 偽造文書都列為選舉查查積分在合分的嘛那像這個的話完全就是違反選罷法98條第一項第二款更可以名正言順用那個選罷法的積分來合分副局長你們有要處理這個嗎 有沒有"},{"start":152.373,"end":172.314,"text":"報告員如果我們受理相關的告發案件的話我們會收集相關資料然後提報給地檢署才會來執行偵辦好那我在這邊就是我等一下會再談一下個資的這個部分那我這邊也先跟副局長說明一下如果說這段時間的這個個資的利用上面假設是違法的話那"},{"start":172.874,"end":186.112,"text":"你們千萬記得我在這邊直接跟你們說嘛那你們就要開始下去調查因為這跟全民有關嘛那我也再跟兩位說明一下最近有很多實務上面查到的炸雞集團他就是利用這些簡訊所獲得的資訊因為"},{"start":189.135,"end":212.003,"text":"這些簡訊他雖然是外面的簡訊的代理商來幫忙發送這些訊息但這些代理商他所得到的這個門號他可以從門號去知道你去過哪些地點去過哪些地點嘛 使用的基地台位置這個在中華電信的廣告裡面也寫得很清楚你去過哪一間實體的售車展覽場然後之後他就會丟這個車輛的簡訊給你嘛"},{"start":216.264,"end":241.054,"text":"這個中華電信的廣告都有那我如果這樣的話那我自然我就可以從這些簡訊發送的代理商那邊從每個人的門號去反推回這個人曾經到過哪裡使用過哪幾個基地台這些東西請你們要注意一下很多詐團現在開始在用這些資料那就台灣詐欺很多啊我們現在要幫國人守住這一塊這個你們不能都裝作都視而不見"},{"start":242.963,"end":260.892,"text":"那我這邊跟幾位說明一下就是這個月初的新聞報導就有關這個罷免的連署的這個簡訊嘛那那個反共互台聯盟的人指出說他們這個簡訊是透過跟代理商這邊下單去購買的這個服務"},{"start":263.954,"end":285.296,"text":"那他說呢 這個代理商會跟三大業者合作並以區域基地台以及當初申請門號的地點還有作為發送地點好 所以呢 光目前依據那個報導新北市就有五個選區有 雙河 板橋 淡水 新店等等的像台中那邊也都有"},{"start":286.129,"end":310.462,"text":"所以以當初發送門號的地點他也可以針對這個門號申請人的年齡學歷性別等等的這些來取得這些發送的資料那我想請教一下就是 霸團取得這五個選區的各行動電話的門號然後廣發簡訊鼓勵罷免的連署那為什麼霸團可以取得這些資料"},{"start":314.104,"end":338.898,"text":"好 沒關係 那我幫你們回答好了那就是因為 霸團向這些業者下單嘛 對不對因為業者手上有這些資料 所以他霸團向他下單嘛但是呢 我必須提一個點我們這次我們知道的 我們最近一段時間我們很多科技執法的修法那你要知道 門號跟使用者位置 這個其實是符合通保法三之一條的通訊記錄資料"},{"start":340.379,"end":357.054,"text":"也就是說這些東西很多都是要檢察官申請法官核准才能調閱那如果中華電信今天什麼都不管就全部丟出去給業者那這個也很奇怪而且四字689號也有講得很清楚就是即使我們一般人在公開場合"},{"start":358.715,"end":386.534,"text":"我們的一些行為我們也有不受關注的權利我們在公開場合我們還是有一些個人隱私的主張的權利嘛而不是說中華電信你可以把所有的資料全部都給那些業者他們想怎麼用就怎麼用那我想請問一下各支委員會我們最近有民眾反映說他搬到中壢了他人搬到中壢了結果他在中壢有收到訊息啊那你們有沒有發覺這是怎麼回事"},{"start":388.185,"end":406.102,"text":"因為目前個資法他還是是一個分管的狀況所以因為我們目前我們個資籌備處是沒有調查的權限所以這個部分可能還是會變成是由各業別的目的事業主管機關他在個案他才有調查的權限那你們就沒有再管這一塊嗎"},{"start":407.069,"end":428.395,"text":"因為因為應該是說目前我們收到如果有收到民眾因為我目前其實也沒有收到民眾對我們有有任何的我要跟你講那個民眾還說那會不會我連我去汽車旅館就資料全部都被你們掌握他們現在擔心的這個點我可以去某一個汽車賣場然後你就知道我去過然後讓業者丟訊息丟汽車的訊息給我"},{"start":430.015,"end":450.306,"text":"那我去了哪一間企業旅館他會不會下次你就丟他的折下券給我這是那個民眾的質疑啦另外我上網看了一下這個簡訊的這個收費大概就0.7起跳到1.5所以當然我也會覺得說哇這些霸團真的超有錢的因為我拿到一個數據就內政部的一個公開數據啦"},{"start":451.847,"end":457.27,"text":"而且是112年11月電信信息人口統計光是新聞報導的這幾個區加起來電信使用人口有156萬3184人那如果說依據我們以最便宜的0.7塊來看好了以0.7塊的這個數字"},{"start":474.161,"end":495.213,"text":"如果說他真的都發的話大概要一百零九萬多啦那當然我不知道他到底發了多少了我們也蠻希望說這些罷團最後能夠公開這些經費的使用因為我國目前在這一塊法律上面建構不夠完全我們選舉 我們最後選舉經費要報到中選會去但是罷免卻不用"},{"start":496.013,"end":515.563,"text":"那他們錢哪裡來 怎麼用 都沒有人管所以現在好多個罷團 現在都發 內部都發生因為經費使用 有人私下去募款 有人錢不知道怎麼用就內部鬧哄哄 上次那個謝國良那個 他那個罷免案也是啊罷免完之後 到現在他們還在吵還在吵罷免那個經費的使用"},{"start":516.864,"end":534.611,"text":"所以這一塊內政部是有提說要修法啦但在修法之前這一次就天下大亂因為錢不知道哪裡來 不知道哪裡去這也是我們質疑的一個點啦那甚至有的比較更精確化的訊息是一折要一塊半所以這個費用是非常的驚人的"},{"start":535.919,"end":553.047,"text":"那我也不認為說資料可以讓大家這樣濫用一團是對國家的好事就像我剛剛說的現在很多詐欺集團他是利用這些所謂的簡訊代發業者所取得的資料去反推回去大家的習慣我講個很簡單的我的門號"},{"start":555.95,"end":582.262,"text":"立法院有 立法院在很多通訊欄上面 路上面也有把我的門號列出來那業 如果有人想要知道我的生活習慣而他不是 我不是偵查單位 不是檢查機關他就拿我的門號去跟這些業者去反求門 門號的使用紀錄就好了啊所以我到過哪裡 去過哪些賣場 我的整個脈絡就出來了所以這是我質疑的點 而且這個點是不分藍綠都要注意的風險"},{"start":583.602,"end":605.504,"text":"國人要注意的風險因為詐欺集團他要怎麼樣騙到你的錢如果你值得他騙的話如果你夠有錢值得他騙的話他就會花時間去分析你過往的記錄就像我們以前在做情事案件偵查的時候我會去分析這個被告他的生活習慣譬如他喜歡看不動產的資料我就會一直丟這種類似這種東西去給他去跟他談"},{"start":606.826,"end":621.207,"text":"所以我們會去分析對方的資料之後然後去攻破他去理解他到底在做什麼那我們不能讓這些個人的資料到最後變成是犯罪集團使用的工具這是我很在乎的一個點那中華電信我請教一下你們在"},{"start":622.489,"end":649.859,"text":"官網的行動寬頻服務契約書第37條你有寫到非依法或經乙方事先同意不得為收集目的以外之利用所以呢相關的資料記錄啊經過你們處理而且客觀上無法識別懷孕識別個人的可能的時候才能夠提供第三人使用但是在這段時間有非常多的例子大家都開始在那邊擔心說他可以經過很簡單的"},{"start":652.168,"end":670.074,"text":"反求就可以查出個人的資料就像健保資料庫的隱密性現在也被人家一直挑戰一樣那你們對於資料的個人資料的維護是遠低於健保資料庫那這個情況下我想請問一下中華電信有什麼做法嗎"},{"start":671.004,"end":689.415,"text":"根據人報告我現在順便跟大家說中華電信在各支的這些收集利用處理一定都是完全按照各支法去處理那在我們公司內部從內部的檢視到內控到內機到外部通過這些ISO的2700 27701 BS10012到我們通過國家標準的這一個"},{"start":696.104,"end":703.795,"text":"你講這個有答跟沒有答一樣我都依據各執法我經過什麼認證我都沒有問題但我們看到的是結論結論我跟你說明一下結論就是呢"},{"start":713.533,"end":729.952,"text":"今天很多人我當初去申請門號的時候甚至我門號是20年前申請的我沒有換過門號那我20年前申請我當時也不可能去勾選這個各自使用的同意書啊那甚至我勾選使用同意書我的範圍也沒有包括到政治活動"},{"start":731.449,"end":754.005,"text":"但是最近這是一個事實就變成有一些政治活動會利用這些發送簡訊或者是詐欺集團使用業者這些外面這個代理業者的資訊這個都已經是事實上的一個事實然後你在那邊跟我說我一切我符合各執法我一切我符合誰誰誰的認證但是我們看的是結論我們要處理的是社會問題"},{"start":755.586,"end":781.488,"text":"也跟委員報告那我為什麼先說明我們在這個部分一切有做這樣嚴謹的處理那另外一個電信公司它本身其實是一個傳輸網路的平台所以就現在爆炸的這個案或剛剛委員提到很多案例其實是來自於發訊端它的行為那我們在有關詐欺這個部分在NCC的指導跟警政機關合作其實我們也做了很多的措施"},{"start":782.148,"end":807.901,"text":"那就有講跟沒有講 都是他們的錯 千錯萬錯都是他們的錯但是業者 雖然中華電信是公司 但是業者 企業有社會責任每一個企業都有他的社會責任存在那你有沒有做適當的行政調查 這就是一個很重要的點你放任說 你用我的東西 我也不知道 反正是你犯罪不是我但是你可以做行政上的控管因為現在詐欺已經是全民痛恨的東西了"},{"start":808.681,"end":825.744,"text":"是不分你什麼政治傾向你什麼有的沒有的大家都不喜歡詐欺但是我一直講你詐欺像你剛剛說就交給警察交給誰其實這不對的所有的正確的反詐的處理是行政先行司法在末端補位"},{"start":826.545,"end":853.207,"text":"你一定要從最前端的NCC 金管會等等的他去把詐騙的簡訊控管掉把詐騙的廣告控管掉減少了詐欺的案件發生之後最後才由司法機關去查就現在大家都導致了司法機關衝第一線然後行政機關不管就排山倒海的詐騙廣告我常常收到欸我家人也常常收到欸那就表示控管出了問題啊那如果你認為說這個是"},{"start":854.994,"end":880.384,"text":"那個簡訊帶送業者的責任那我也不知道說那貴公司的企業的社會責任哪裡去了那個謝謝你的指導事實上我們在那個社會責任有關詐欺我們不管是在簡訊或通訊因為涉及到秘密通訊所以我們這個部分的也做了很多的那個處理那詐騙的簡訊它有很多的太陽我跟你講啦你自己看我現在這PowerPoint上面"},{"start":881.044,"end":909.738,"text":"你們收集了非常多的資料這是你們的廣告喔不是我們列出來的你告訴大家說你可以去哪裡收集到誰去哪裡的資料之後然後以行為分群來丟給這些人像你去有這個人常跑健身房你收集到他常跑健身房資料你就丟給他一些運動愛好的資訊這個是企業資訊上面商務上面使用沒有錯但是我跟你們說這個會導致返求之後會知道你很多資訊知道你去過哪裡"},{"start":910.738,"end":917.389,"text":"會有這個問題 而且這個已經實務上面發生那麼多了另外 我要跟你們提一下 最近簡訊待發業者"},{"start":919.437,"end":940.038,"text":"在五月份的時候發了一些那個訊息給他們的那些客戶裡面就有提到說要開始去查他們這些業他們來請求發送簡訊的這些人他們的資料等等的他們要求這些人提供那我的問題就是說五月"},{"start":941.189,"end":952.309,"text":"他們發了這些資訊然後說到九月底之前都會用勸導不開罰請問這是NCC的意見中央電信還有NZ都可以回答這是NCC嗎的意見到九月嗎"},{"start":953.154,"end":977.528,"text":"沒有 跟委員報告其實我們真的要求電信業的法徵是並沒有任何的時間限制那我看到九月我想那你們是不是要幹嘛要等到大罷免結束之後再來開始查嗎現階段不用查然後另外一件事情今天發送簡訊已經在台灣這麼多年了但是NCC以及中華電信貴公司都沒有去做行政上面的調查"},{"start":978.348,"end":997.102,"text":"這是怎麼回事我們都有依據個資法第22條還有我們電信管理法第90條進行個資檢查像這個個案我們就5月5號5月9號都進行兩次刑事檢查對三家電信業者如果你講的啦結果現在這些簡訊待發業者在5月12號發了一個到處發了一個這個訊"},{"start":999.564,"end":1014.011,"text":"訊息跟大家說之後每一個人委託發送簡訊人他們要提供相關的資料那過往都沒有耶而且他說九月之後才會開法耶所以我不知道我們的行政機關到底在做什麼真正該管的不管"},{"start":1015.769,"end":1042.459,"text":"這個造成國內的詐騙這麼嚴重的事情不管然後詐騙廣告不管簡訊發送不管個資會被冒用也不管什麼都不管然後今天一個一個點出來跟委員報告是這樣子說NCC對我們管的三大業者就是我們是有作用法來歸管他那他們跟上游大盤商那邊是用契約來約定但是他們也要求他們要做好KIC這一塊應該是末端的"},{"start":1042.799,"end":1057.158,"text":"末端的就待發業者的他的企客那一部分的他們都對他們的一些要求我跟你說啦 NCC是公家機關 也算政府機關是中立的嘛然後中華電信是公司嘛"},{"start":1058.171,"end":1085.258,"text":"那我只能跟兩位說啦我自己在實務上面經驗來看你們的管理上面有出很大的問題那如果你說我講錯或說你們經歷但是我們看到的是實務上面就是非常多的詐騙訊息非常多的我剛講的我給你一個門號我不用去做違法的調查我光是從這些業者代發業者所掌握的資訊我就可以回過頭去反求出你們每個人的"},{"start":1086.258,"end":1108.386,"text":"過去去過哪裡幹了什麼事情我覺得這樣對嗎 這樣從個資上面這樣OK嗎在NCC的職權範圍內我們都有都嚴格的把關這一塊那相關的末端的部分應該還有對應相關的主管機關來處理像資訊服務業或行銷公司這邊都不在NCC的職權範圍內最後我就說麻煩調查局還有法務部我剛剛講的"},{"start":1114.226,"end":1138.142,"text":"麻煩你們去弄清楚有沒有違反選罷法98條第一項第二款麻煩一下那我在這邊也再次的跟各位說第一個簡訊使用有沒有問題有沒有違反各自法再來你就麻煩全部都用選舉查查去核分叫底下調查官好好的處理還有有沒有違反98條你們自己可以看清清楚楚在那邊只要用違法的方式"},{"start":1139.042,"end":1145.575,"text":"做這些罷免的鼓動或要求大家不罷免這個都有違法請你們能夠就這部分去查查 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"161522","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161522","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f0ddfe03b3fa177e68cf24fa728d90a8048b7b28ebcc841bb4e3a4a211d9ab1f3d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:13:05 - 09:15:48","影片長度":"00:02:43","會議時間":"2025-05-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、繼續審查委員賴士葆等20人擬具「地方制度法第七條之一條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「地方制度法增訂第七條之四條文草案」案。三、繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「地方制度法第八十三條之三條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十二條及第六十一條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「地方制度法第五十六條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員李坤城等20人擬具「地方制度法第七十八條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條及第五十六條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「地方制度法第八十三條之三條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「地方制度法第七條之一條文修正草案」案。十、繼續審查委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、繼續審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「地方制度法部分條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員邱鎮軍等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條及第五十六條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員蘇清泉等19人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。十四、審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員范雲等24人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員徐富癸等17人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。十七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。【第十七案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-19","start_time":"2025-05-19T09:13:05+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-19T09:15:48+08:00","duration":163,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[15,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-3-15,36-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.047218750000001,"end":107.45721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.79471875,"end":155.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.39034375,"end":158.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.16221875000002,"end":159.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.30534375000002,"end":163.21221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.056,"end":18.254,"text":"好主席各位同仁大家早安在我的地方製度法的修法當中也是強調性別應該要不低於三分之一因為大家也知道說台灣在性別平權的道路上一直都非常努力向前那也獲得國際的肯定"},{"start":21.198,"end":44.028,"text":"然后在消除对妇女一切形式歧视公园里面也明确有指出说女性参与政治和公共生活的比例应该至少达到三成到三成五以上这也是一个国际趋势那我国的宪法里面更是明定应该要保障妇女的名额可是现行的地方制度法在1999年设立了四分之一妇女保障名额之后"},{"start":44.628,"end":73.721,"text":"虽然很明确的有看到说提升女性参政的意愿有正面的影响但是到目前为止已经过了二十几年我们发现还是不够的应该要再往前走所以尤其是在这种地方政治参与的场域当中我们认为应该要更进步因为在地方的民意代表里面仅适用当选名额超过四人的选区导致说很多当选名额如果是三人以下的小选区性别保障的制度就没有办法发挥作用"},{"start":74.561,"end":79.968,"text":"以2022年地方選舉的數據來說全國有681個鄉鎮市民代表的選區當中有多達318個選區完全沒有女性當選比例是47%近五成近五成的選區裡面完全沒有女性當選這代表什麼"},{"start":94.484,"end":112.131,"text":"這代表說在基層的政治當中女性的聲音和參與還是面臨結構性的障礙甚至是剛剛其實范議員也提到說有四成的選區是完全沒有女性參選過的所以我們認為地方製度法還有在修正的空間所以我在33條裡面提到兩個"},{"start":114.372,"end":132.046,"text":"一个是要扩大保障的范围落实基层的参与包括说选区当选人数如果达三人以上那任意性别不得低于三分之一这其实不只是保障女性也同时保障男性也就是说在一个选区当中男性跟女性参与的机会是平等的"},{"start":132.626,"end":154.75,"text":"第二個保障多元的觀點提升決策的品質這樣的修正可以強化對於女性參政權的保障更多元更均衡的代議結構可以讓政府的施政更充分的參與不同群體的觀點來提升公共政策的品質跟周延性所以也希望所有的委員可以不分黨派的一起支持這一個提案謝謝好謝謝黃婕委員"},{"start":161.38,"end":163.079,"text":"那因為今天有新增條文"}]}},{"id":"16685","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16685","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d9d66b4f497eb78a005125cde79cd088952bdb8234cc31cac5bd5fcf0591461c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等48案。（詳如附件））","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-19T08:31:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-19T11:54:59+08:00","duration":12210,"影片長度":"03:23:30","委員發言時間":"08:31:29 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隱私事務局第二幕向下加強領務服務工作預算凍結100萬元案第四案 第一幕向下通訊費預算凍結100萬元案第五案 第二幕向下基本行政工作維持預算凍結100萬元案第六案 第三幕向下租位使領單位基本行政工作維持預算凍結50萬元案"},{"start":2062.523,"end":2069.116,"text":"第七案 第三目向下 業務費預算凍結兩百萬元案 第八案第三目向下 駐外河岸單位"},{"start":2069.949,"end":2095.346,"text":"基本行政工作維持預算凍結13萬元案第九案 第四目向下學術交流活動有關亞西及非洲式預算凍結80萬元案第十案 第四目向下學術交流活動有關北美式預算凍結200萬元案第十一案 第四目向下協助各種國際交流活動有關北美式預算凍結100萬元案第十二案 第四目向下經貿交流活動有關亞東太平洋式預算凍結100萬元案"},{"start":2096.707,"end":2122.502,"text":"第十三案 第五目向下 駐外技術服務預算凍結十萬元案第十四案 第五目向下 對國際之關懷救助及重建預算凍結一百萬元案第十五案 第六目 第一屆營建工程預算凍結一百萬元案第十六案 民事事務局第二目向下 印製申請證件證照表件及須知預算凍結二十萬元案第十七案 第四目向下一般數非預算凍結一百萬元案"},{"start":2123.072,"end":2127.176,"text":"第十八案外交及國際事務學院第二幕外交領事人員講習預算凍結10%案"},{"start":2130.526,"end":2152.712,"text":"第十九案 外交及國際事務學院第二幕第一節向下 業務費預算凍結15萬元案第二十案 第四幕向下 對外資捐助有關北美式預算凍結10%案第二十一案 第四幕向下 學術交流活動有關亞東太平洋式預算凍結200萬元案第二十二案 第四幕向下 旁邊接待中業務費預算凍結200萬元案"},{"start":2155.513,"end":2164.246,"text":"討論事項處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議外交部主管預算凍結案等24案第一案"},{"start":2165.202,"end":2189.12,"text":"第二幕向下基本行政工作維持中至業務一般事務費預算凍結三百萬元專案報告案第二案第四幕國際會議與交流向下協助各種國際交流活動預算凍結百分之二十專案報告案第三案第二幕向下業務費預算凍結一百萬元案第四案業務費預算凍結百分之五十案第五案"},{"start":2189.7,"end":2200.876,"text":"第一幕向下 水電費預算凍結一百萬元案第六案 第一幕向下一般事務費預算凍結一百五十萬元案第七案 第一幕向下 水電費預算凍結五十萬元案"},{"start":2202.233,"end":2228.631,"text":"第八案第一幕向下一班事務費預算凍結兩百萬元案第九案第一幕向下桃園國際機場接待室基本行政工作維持預算凍結兩百萬元案第十案第二幕向下一班事務費預算凍結兩百萬元案第十一案第三幕向下業務費預算凍結五百萬元案第十二案第三幕向下業務費預算凍結一百萬元案第十三案第三幕向下教育訓練費預算凍結五十萬元案第十四案"},{"start":2229.071,"end":2251.043,"text":"第三目向下一般事務費預算凍結兩百萬元案第十五案第三目向下車輛及辦公器具養物費預算凍結一百萬元案第十六案第四目向下一般事務費預算凍結兩百萬元案第十七案第四目向下學術交流活動有關亞東太平洋是預算凍結一百萬元案第十八案第四目向下"},{"start":2251.823,"end":2279.393,"text":"學術交流活動有關亞西及非洲市預算凍結100萬元案第19案第4目向下協助各種國際交流活動有關亞西及非洲市預算凍結200萬元案第20案第4目向下協助各種國際交流活動有關北美市預算凍結200萬元案第21案第4目向下第4目向下經貿交流活動國際合作及經濟事務室預算凍結300萬元案第22案第4目向下"},{"start":2280.6,"end":2283.072,"text":"其他協助各項國際交流活動預算凍結200萬元案"},{"start":2285.373,"end":2306.542,"text":"第23案第4目向下其他協助各項國際交流活動補助台灣民主基金會預算凍結100萬元案第24案第4目向下其他協助各項國際交流活動亞東太平洋斯預算凍結200萬元案第25案第4目向下其他協助各項國際交流活動北美斯預算凍結300萬元案第26案第5目向下違半費預算凍結50萬元案宣讀完畢"},{"start":2316.076,"end":2341.65,"text":"報告四項二處理應會交付一四年度中央政府總預算決議外交部主管預算凍結案提出書面報告後使得凍失等二十二案現書面報告已送交本會請問各委員會各委員對於預算解凍有沒有有無異議沒有那我們就"},{"start":2343.632,"end":2349.797,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進 各位女士 各位先生 大家早"},{"start":2372.43,"end":2385,"text":"承蒙大院外交及國防委員會安排本部主管114年度公開預算凍結項目進行解凍今日列入議程既有報告四項二十二案"},{"start":2386.48,"end":2404.207,"text":"兩千一百四十九萬三千元以及討論事項二十六案計四十億四千兩百七十萬五千元該等報告均已送交大院這一部分也納入了大院議案關係文書敬請各位委員參閱"},{"start":2406.088,"end":2431.884,"text":"為持續推動各項重要外交事務敬請各位委員一本長期以來對外交工作的關注與支持對本部蓄意督促與鼓勵並同意解除上述各項預算凍結案以利本部業務之順利推動那以下接續由本部亞西籍非洲師陳永博副司長就阿拉伯在台商務協會相關爭議及後續處置案"},{"start":2435.026,"end":2447.837,"text":"以及條約法律師許博毅副司長就在台外籍人士司法相驗案件處理機制進行專案報告向各位委員做具體說明以上謝謝那請副司長專案報告"},{"start":2462.962,"end":2481.255,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先生 各位女士 大家早安外交部亞非斯主要就阿拉伯在台商務協會ACCT的相關爭議及後續處理要做一個專案報告分數如下第一 外交部在111年8月接獲沙烏地阿拉伯約旦及阿曼三國駐台機構反映ACCT冒用官方身份及核發認證文件後"},{"start":2482.876,"end":2499.95,"text":"有持續積極與各該駐台機構聯繫並提供協助該協會是依據我國《人民團體法》向內政部申請許可設立本案與內政部及法務部調查局密切聯繫與協調ACT冒用官方身份及核發生意文件認證事情已在1、2年11月處理完畢"},{"start":2500.911,"end":2522.341,"text":"第二,有關AACD在1、2年9月對三駐台機構提起損害賠償及妨礙名譽的民刑事告訴,本部於職權範圍內與法務部積極協助確認其等所享有的豁免範圍,並進行後續協助及相關處理。本案已經進入司法程序,基於司法獨立,偵辦的案件本部無法提供進一步協助。"},{"start":2523.502,"end":2545.147,"text":"各國駐台機構所享有的特權豁免不盡相同,係基於雙邊對等及互惠原則相互授予。目前台沙間享有完整的特權豁免待遇,我們則持續努力提升與約旦及阿曼間的特權豁免。由於在ACCT案辦理過程之中,外交部疊次促請該兩駐台機構轉呈其政府禁訴辦理,目前尚待對方政府回應。"},{"start":2546.167,"end":2566.763,"text":"第三外交部獲悉三駐台代表受到騷擾的事情除第一時間表達關切及了解外並洽起內政部警政署加強對該等機構及代表的安全維護並協助三駐台代表將相關證據提供給檢調單位偵辦本部也持續與我政府相關機關及三駐台機構保持密切的聯繫第四"},{"start":2568.624,"end":2591.797,"text":"本部於14年1月再度致函內政部,針對相關爭議,請內政部基於主管機關職責檢視ACCD相關行為是否違反法令、章程或妨礙公益的情勢。另函請司法院、台灣高層法院、法務部及內政部說明其處理民刑事及行政案件涉外國駐台機構及人員時,應先向外交部確認其特權豁免,以免引發爭端。"},{"start":2593.759,"end":2607.909,"text":"5.本部與內政部在14年2月再就本案相關爭議及後續處理方式進行協調,之後也在致函SCT,針對該會的名稱及相關資訊,恐有誤導公眾之語等節,提供行政補導並令其限期改善。"},{"start":2608.849,"end":2620.787,"text":"並令韓警政署再次強調,針對辦理外國駐台機構及人員所設的民情事案件時,應該優先向外交部確認他們所享有的特權或免範圍,並依據本部的建議,已經建立了相關熱線機制以及加強安全防護。"},{"start":2624.492,"end":2639.944,"text":"內政部檢證署在114年4月的時候致函本部提及ACCT已在113年1月31日停止租賃辦公室另查ACCT官方網站以及Facebook、LinkedIn等社群媒體網頁資訊並沒有見到提供文件認證、驗證等服務資訊結語"},{"start":2643.126,"end":2658.475,"text":"本案相關應處本部均應法規及職權紀議辦理,並與相關機關保持密切聯繫並積極的溝通、協調,未有消極、延宕等情。相關爭議若以辦結或改善,敬請委員繼續給予指導與支持。以上報告。謝謝。"},{"start":2672.042,"end":2674.11,"text":"主席各位委員先進下請就位"},{"start":2676.311,"end":2703.398,"text":"主席各位委員先進以下緊究我國對於在台外籍人士司法相應案件處理機制的執行現況以及強化與外國警政合作司法護署的策進作為提出報告第一我國處理在台外籍人士司法相應案件是由檢警直接通報該外籍人士所屬國家駐台機構並透過其駐台機構聯繫死者家屬藉以爭取時效並踐行委以納領事關係公約的相關通報義務並未透過本部或法務部轉資駐台機構"},{"start":2705.595,"end":2733.501,"text":"苗栗地檢署偵辦112年7月發生的太極移工遭車輛撞擊死亡案件其新聞稿也說明該案太極移工家屬於第一時間已知悉並委託在台仲介處理死者後續上葬事宜並向泰國貿易經濟辦事處申請死者死亡證明本案基於人道及時效考量以及尊重檢警偵辦刑事個案權責使外籍人士家屬最快獲得必要之協助以確保被害人家屬的權益"},{"start":2735.219,"end":2757.72,"text":"再者,以東南亞國家為例,我國已與菲律賓、印尼、越南、新加坡及泰國分別簽署《刑事司法互助協定》、《防制人口犯罪協定》以及《共同打擊犯罪協定》等,並在越南、菲律賓、馬來西亞、印尼、泰國及緬甸等地派駐法務或警務秘書,推動建立雙邊警政、犯罪偵防、情資分享以及調查業務聯繫等。"},{"start":2759.909,"end":2770.227,"text":"本部將持續與相關部會合作宣達處理涉及外籍人士案件流程並推動與各國洽簽警政司法互助協定擴大司法交流與合作聯絡確保雙邊人民權益"},{"start":2774.309,"end":2796.101,"text":"建議本部預算國際會與交流有關於其他協助各項國際交流活動的經費主要是編列一般事務費及國外旅費均為推動業務所需倘若凍結相關預算恐將影響我國與友好國家打擊犯罪及犯罪增防的合作成效敬請大院同意解除本案預算凍結案以利業務推漲以上報告謝謝各位委員"},{"start":2801.702,"end":2819.656,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員私家2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘10點半發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於在10點半以前提出11點左右處理現在請陳俊宜委員上台質詢"},{"start":2833.936,"end":2836.441,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請林部長"},{"start":2842.401,"end":2866.248,"text":"部長早委員長部長對於推動各項的這個國際交流相關的活動從外交部的解凍報告來看台韓同屬這個印太民族的陣營那在雙邊的實質關係還算穩健那雙方持續的推動各項領域的這個合作交流在這個南韓6月3號進行總統補選國會的最大黨"},{"start":2871.089,"end":2883.961,"text":"這個共同民主黨總統候選人李在民目前民調是大幅領先其他的候選人那他曾經有一個論述他說台海是中國和台灣的一個內政問題與韓國無關"},{"start":2887.466,"end":2912.203,"text":"如果李在民他順利當選韓國的外交政策可能會有所轉變那我想請教部長就是我們如何來觀察韓國大選的一個動態以及主要候選人在外交政策上的一個走向那這個大選的結果是否會對於區域穩定造成某種程度的一個影響是"},{"start":2914.811,"end":2935.411,"text":"我們外交部密切注意韓國的總統的大選因為當然國家領導人會影響一個外交政策的走向不過地緣政治也有它比較長期穩定的結構所以我們在觀察的時候"},{"start":2938.457,"end":2950.796,"text":"競選前競選中跟競選之後的說法跟他的政策走向這之間我們也看到一些調整那麼我想任何執政的都要"},{"start":2952.233,"end":2970.306,"text":"承擔這個外交政策的後果所以這一點我們對於韓國大選可能的選舉結果密切關注那不同的情形我們會相對的有因應那最主要也是就是在"},{"start":2971.147,"end":2990.381,"text":"印太第一島鏈,我想不管從日本、台灣、菲律賓或者是包括韓國,這都是密切相關的所以朝鮮半島跟台海之間的情勢互相連動所以我想美國的印太司令部也是基於這個樣子在進行很多的溝通、協調"},{"start":2992.543,"end":2996.227,"text":"那台灣也是這裡面第一島鏈可以說是防止威權擴張我們是站在第一線韓國也是"},{"start":3002.11,"end":3027.321,"text":"好 謝謝部長那韓國作為我們台灣在各領域上往來算是算平凡的一個國家之一那假使真的向中國靠攏加上中共持續對台灣的這個主權地位和國際參與的這個空間來施壓那台韓之間的交流發展會不會受到什麼樣的阻礙我們要如何來深化跟韓國之間的實質關係"},{"start":3029.963,"end":3039.936,"text":"台韓之間除了地緣政治的關係很密切以外在經貿上的整合跟分工也日益的加強其實韓國也因為過去跟中國簽了自由貿易協定"},{"start":3047.685,"end":3060.635,"text":"那造成對他們產業很大的衝擊是負面的那反而台灣現在就是說在全球佈局裡面相對來講就沒有那麼依賴中國的市場那但是在半導體供應鏈我們從競爭到"},{"start":3064.418,"end":3081.007,"text":"合作的關係都有不過面對美國的關稅政策台韓也是彼此是修其與共我們既競爭又合作的關係我想台韓之間除了這些地緣政治跟經貿以外在文化"},{"start":3081.667,"end":3093.299,"text":"的交流上特別是觀光旅遊還有這方面的關係是非常的密切所以我們還是把它當作理念相近的民主國家希望能夠大家協同一起來維護印太第一島鏈的和平穩定跟發展好"},{"start":3100.907,"end":3118.062,"text":"現在除了美國關稅各國都在談判進行當中我們也觀察到中日韓之間往來時隔五年今年三月在首爾再次召開第三次的中日韓經貿部長級的會議"},{"start":3121.084,"end":3140.639,"text":"那在會議中都宣示了三國之間要深化經貿的合作尤其要加快FTA的這個談判那部長您認為這種機會成形的機會高不高那台灣如何要透過這個外交的策略及早來因應可能的這個變局"},{"start":3142.359,"end":3169.28,"text":"這涉及到美中抗衡就是紅色供應鏈跟民主供應鏈之間的競爭關係所以我想在現在這個以川普的這個不管關稅貿易或他的產業的政策我想這個要去進行所謂的日韓跟中國的三國的FTA的整合事實上是難度很高那另外一方面就是說"},{"start":3170.799,"end":3189.184,"text":"怎麼樣去面對川普政府的關稅大家也在行情區域的整合這一點我們包括CPTPP我想台灣為什麼爭取要參加那中國也是不過這個問題當然除了經濟的層面還有它地緣政治上的考量"},{"start":3189.784,"end":3192.085,"text":"那總之我想對於中國利用川普的這個新政合縱連橫特別是在所謂周邊國家包括東協等等那這個也當然會連帶影響到我們我們也是密切的關注跟審慎的因應"},{"start":3207.751,"end":3222.173,"text":"好那這部分我們也是請外交部持續的關注包括韓國的大選還有相關的經貿談判的一個發展以妥適來調整我們相關要因應的一個外交策略那是"},{"start":3223.137,"end":3250.731,"text":"主席我可不可以再借一個一分鐘左右那我想再請教部長就是針對菲律賓放寬官員來台的這個交流的限制那主要對於這個經貿還有招商為目的可是這個台非之間的觀光旅遊或是人員互訪甚至是安全防衛議題上都有相當的一個密切關係那如同部長日前曾表示過新的規範將有助於我國在"},{"start":3251.831,"end":3268.866,"text":"總和外交下持續深化台非實質的關係那在這個總統府他們菲律賓總統府公布的新的備忘錄內台灣應該如何加強和菲律賓的各項之間的合作往來互動官員撐擊我們是不是已經有提高的現象"},{"start":3269.406,"end":3298.206,"text":"是我們歡迎菲律賓政府鬆綁那就是放寬了這個兩國之間的往來的限制那這個很明顯的因為最近是供應在重組很多的台商從中國甚至從東南亞其他國家那是不是移到菲律賓這個是他們希望爭取台商去投資那地緣政治上我們都面對中國的威脅然後跟美國也都有合作的關係"},{"start":3299.167,"end":3323.778,"text":"可是怎麼樣加強總和外交當中除了價值外交同盟外交還有經濟外交所以我們希望推動台非經濟走廊來加強台非之間經濟的整合尤其是呂宋島那美日非之間也有一個呂宋經濟走廊的計畫那我們希望加上台非之間串聯那這個之間不管是投資貿易或者是一些科技還有"},{"start":3325.419,"end":3352.465,"text":"各方面的合作這個我們台北之間已經有展開諮商那也可以預期啦我們也期待除了這個有關於免簽這個也能夠他們能夠給與台灣免簽啦來促進兩國的交流以外避免雙重剋稅還有整個投資保障的這些制度能夠更完善畢竟台商去投資我們政府也是要確保他們的權益受到保障"},{"start":3355.52,"end":3382.028,"text":"好謝謝部長因為我們現在台飛每年往來的這個遊客旅客大概是超過46萬人那剛剛陳儒部長所說的我們對於免簽的部分應該是要更加的需求希望能夠透過外交部來跟菲律賓這邊協商看能不能儘早完成這個免簽的部分是這位列入優先協商的項目也樂觀的期待好謝謝部長"},{"start":3385.435,"end":3401.941,"text":"謝謝陳俊宇的質詢接下來由沈伯陽召委上台質詢謝謝主席有請部長"},{"start":3410.118,"end":3425.267,"text":"部長好委員長今天是解凍但是因為剛好這幾天有一件時事就是說芬蘭我們有新的人事的新聞那是不是可以請部長先稍微跟國人做一個簡單的說明"},{"start":3427.318,"end":3443.908,"text":"有關於外界關切林昶佐先生的人事案現在在辦理中因為大使的派任是由總統來決定總統府來公告所以這個作業程序在進行當中"},{"start":3445.129,"end":3462.194,"text":"因為這個我相信這個今天可能會有很多的問題都是這方面那就是這個但是因為這次解凍案所以我最主要還是針對解凍的事項來問一下那因為這一次有這一個討論事項第四案就是說關於這一個業務費凍結50%然後呢到這個執行30%才可以申請解凍我認為這個應該是蠻重要的一個因為畢竟這個影響到外管的經營"},{"start":3470.296,"end":3490.483,"text":"然後再來就是他是要還要經過院會所以呢我們是希望這個可以今天通過委員會那裡面有幾個細項我想要來問一下就是說第一個當然就是這個在上次因為上次部長有事但上次我問過這一個就是我們索羅門的議員他遭到施壓他退出IPAC這樣的一個事情那上次我是著重在說他報導的這個報紙因為"},{"start":3492.484,"end":3513.218,"text":"在這個整體作戰裡面這個報導的報紙其實也是中國投資的一個報紙但是相對於像這樣的一個情形就是議員遭受到施壓這是第一個第二個就是在這個中拉論壇我們的邦交國的出席其實對台灣也可能會有一定程度的影響那這個當然在外管的這個業務上面都變得蠻重要的是不是可以請部長說明一下"},{"start":3515.077,"end":3539.533,"text":"有關於這兩個案子我想我們群島的因為不信任投票後來又撤回引起他們內閣的一些小幅的改組那有一些入閣的人士過去有參加IPAC那有這個方面那當然我們對於他放棄這個擔任這些共同主席相關的角色我們是當然表示遺憾那也了解這個中國的施壓"},{"start":3544.696,"end":3562.122,"text":"方面我們會持續的努力來跟友好的國會議員跟政黨來保持聯繫然後也能夠促請未來跟台灣的關係能夠有"},{"start":3565.103,"end":3572.79,"text":"一些交流合作至於說中拉論壇我們外交部都有密切掌握所謂兩個友邦有代表前往因為它是中國跟拉共體之間的組織對組織的關係"},{"start":3582.379,"end":3598.568,"text":"那這海地的方面因為它現在進行這一個可以說是正在處於臨時正譜的階段所以不會做出什麼決定那事前事後也都有跟我們溝通我們當然勸阻不過因為基於他們國家的考量"},{"start":3598.988,"end":3613.741,"text":"所以我覺得在這次的掌握上都是能夠充分掌握至於說這個聖路西他不是由外交部長是其他政黨人士他們也有所說明"},{"start":3614.761,"end":3629.583,"text":"那這個就是說呢我認為啦就是說這個當然因為中方故意在這邊又在講什麼一個中國原則啦什麼等等之類的這個當然會有一些影響但我在想的事情就是說因為其實520將至啦那在520呢中國其實動作一定會很多"},{"start":3630.583,"end":3648.331,"text":"某大部分其實都是跟軍事有關我們最近也看到這個海巡相關的騷擾但是中國同樣的在520應該在外交上也會有所動作所以在這個時候它不一定是當然是除了這個接觸我們的邦交國之外它也有可能藉由這樣的一個新聞去炒作輿論然後又要講說什麼這個台灣這個外交部可能這個對外有所有對外不利"},{"start":3654.514,"end":3674.005,"text":"這個沒有好好照顧我們的邦交國等等之類的這樣的輿論可能也會傳出所以我覺得有可能在520之前外交部隊這個可能要做好準備是 我們很早就準備因為中共會在我們總統就職週年在外交上挖我們牆角是可預期包括在國際組織上壓縮我們的空間包括2758號這個決議那對這些我們也因為都有"},{"start":3681.189,"end":3699.696,"text":"事先的這個做好準備到目前為止都在我們掌握的情況之下希望沒有意外因為我覺得就是因為今天病情跟解凍是比較有關係所以我想說這個外交部對於520之前的一些所作所為可能對我們來講都是重要的一個監督範圍"},{"start":3700.876,"end":3730.596,"text":"但裡面還有一個這我時間快到我有一個小地方就是之前我有在問這個NGO論壇那因為其實呢我那時候有提出一個某部分的凍結案到後來併案了那因為併案之後呢這個就沒有特別在這個解凍報告裡面來說明所以這邊可能想問一下部長就是說呢在接下來就是我們這幾年在舉辦類似的這種NGO論壇它的受眾還有它的這一個評估就是說我們今天要怎麼去評估說這個那個效益為何"},{"start":3731.576,"end":3758.706,"text":"因為我們現在有很多NGO其實在國外是幫我們講話它是我們很重要的這個總和外交的一環那但是就是說呢我們現在要怎麼去評估然後它的參與者的回饋如何這個接下來的這一個未來的規劃大概是什麼樣子是NGO外交是我們總和外交很重要的一部分那比如是今年的玉山論壇我們也經過一些NGO代表還有智庫的代表有倡議要成立NGO中心在台灣"},{"start":3761.527,"end":3783.02,"text":"做一個hub也能夠來協調促進更多的交流合作那當然今年很特別是因為川普政府對USAID的改組導致很多NGO運作困難我們也透過我們的管道跟我們的方式"},{"start":3784.762,"end":3799.156,"text":"盡量的去協助能夠撐過這個危險的比較困難的時刻那NGO它的自主性很強議題範圍很廣這個也是代表民主社會才會有的所以我們在這方面會加強是因為相對於中國"},{"start":3800.317,"end":3829.217,"text":"它是一個集權國家它不允許這些公民社團或組織的一個自主的存在所以這裡面我們也希望說NGO的事務會能夠扮演更大的我們像總和外交就是各部會其實不同的議題因為他們的關切不一樣實際上是屬於各部會的業務只是都跟我們外交有關係所以我們會加強跟國內各部會的聯繫然後也會"},{"start":3830.458,"end":3846.618,"text":"幫忙或者是說促進國內NGO的對外的交流畢竟他們才是主體那透過NGO外交來推動這個價值外交對其實我就是我follow up一個就是剛剛部長提到我覺得一個蠻重要的一點就是說"},{"start":3847.179,"end":3861.738,"text":"因為NGO在這個補助上面在去年一直到今年其實都有遇到一定的困難我說在國際上所以我們都在民主基金會所以民主基金會一定程度的幫助其實對於我們要去能夠交到這些朋友無尼是重要的"},{"start":3862.352,"end":3886.762,"text":"我也用這個機會跟委員報告當然包括民主基金會是跨黨派其實也在提案希望其實明年的預算可以增加因為在這個時刻在全世界最需要台灣的時候我們如果能夠增加預算現在的這個董事長是韓國瑜院長也是立法院各黨派都有代表我們希望來強化民主基金會的角色"},{"start":3887.462,"end":3915.112,"text":"對 因為像這個像我知道在東南亞可能有一些媒體它本來也是有一些NGO相關的資助但後來它也是因為這個樣子就是中國反而把手伸進來然後它想要去資助這些媒體也會有我剛剛講的像索羅門的那樣一個案件就是中國所資助的媒體在海外去散播這些訊息所以對我們來講就是說我們跟NGO之間的關係我們當然不能夠直接對媒體"},{"start":3915.712,"end":3943.771,"text":"但我們跟NGO之間的關係很有很大的程度會影響到海外的這一個輿論戰那這個部分我認為是重要的那這個也拉回到我今天在最前面問的就是長佐的這一個人事案因為他長期以來其實跟NGO跟I-NGO的關係其實非常好他也擔任過這一個國際特色的分會長所以我覺得藉由這一個人事的任命案我會認為是不是也要藉由這一個節點去把更多的NGO跟I-NGO拉進來"},{"start":3944.611,"end":3947.716,"text":"那這樣的話對我們來交朋友一定會有更好的一個幫助"},{"start":3949.489,"end":3974.46,"text":"是 確實當然林委員他的背景除了音樂文化這方面的專長以外其實在人權的議題上面他也是這個國際特色組織台灣分會的會長也出席過各種國際的會議那我們希望當然總和外交是讓各方面都能夠走向世界另外我也跟委員報告其實以民主國家的經驗擔任過國會議員包括"},{"start":3977.141,"end":3996.214,"text":"我想外交國安委會每一位立委其實都是具備擔任大使跟代表的條件我這講的是不分黨派因為國會議員他對國政很了解對行政部門監督所以大家當到外交的第一線的時候其實這個是民主的常態對 希望能夠好好發揮謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":4004.395,"end":4007.457,"text":"謝謝 接下來請黃人 黃昭偉上台詢問謝謝主席 有請部長請部長部長好委員好"},{"start":4025.523,"end":4045.128,"text":"剛剛言細,剛剛你所提的具有外交國防的委員但是今天有一個問題我想請教現在報紙裡面也登出來有關於林昶佐前任的立委要被分派到芬蘭"},{"start":4046.274,"end":4067.607,"text":"但今天我們有三個疑問第一個疑問就是臨場所過去裡面散兵兵役的問題那散兵兵役的問題他沒有去做在該做的這些當兵的事務第二個問題"},{"start":4069.648,"end":4092.539,"text":"他沒有具備外交的經驗沒有具備外交的經驗所以你說依你現在我們外交的困境應該要有專業有外交的這一些長才來任派可是國人現在對於派任臨場所到芬蘭"},{"start":4093.739,"end":4101.145,"text":"作為芬蘭的代表我想這個都有很多的疑問跟問號所以我想請教部長你如何"},{"start":4104.255,"end":4125.433,"text":"來選擇沒有外交背景包含散兵兵役的問題那今天又代表了芬蘭代表我們中華民國外交部駐派到芬蘭像這樣的一個問號包含他的本身的問題大家都產生一個質疑對他沒有信心那部長 你看法"},{"start":4127.059,"end":4141.921,"text":"因為芬蘭其實它除了它是重金屬音樂的重鎮以外這不講啦因為這個是比較單一的面向我覺得北歐的五國對人權都非常的重視"},{"start":4143.042,"end":4163.685,"text":"那我想以我們如果純粹除了國會議員的背景之外像國際特赦組織這些交流這些項目都是也是很重要啦那最重要我們是要區域聯防我們希望未來其實我們的外交不是單獨的雙邊關係甚至過雙邊去進行多邊關係比如說在帝國可能有美國大使館日本大使館"},{"start":4164.406,"end":4188.403,"text":"我們橫向的聯繫啊特別是當然這個是外交部的本來事務裡面要做一個對接包含對話現在我是講的是林昶卓本身的疑問題有產生了很多的疑問那這也是國人的關切對外交部到底是不是任派然後呢我們本來對外交部期待的很高"},{"start":4189.204,"end":4206.394,"text":"但是你任派的林昶佐本身的兵役散兵的問題包含他沒有任何外交的長才那如何對我們駐派到芬蘭能不能信任而且本身問題就已經存在了所以部長針對這個問題來回答我是"},{"start":4208.115,"end":4221.865,"text":"有關您提到拼議的問題他本人應該會做回答也有所說明啦我就不在這裡待會來回答那就是如果以美國啦或者是說民主國家來講大使啦"},{"start":4223.806,"end":4243.975,"text":"其他尤其是基於外交那由國會議員去擔任是非常多我想您看到應該是美國這個川普政府就是一個例子那不只是他啦其他我想他們之前不管住日住中或是住在各國歐洲都有這個情形所以這個條件是符合的個人的"},{"start":4248.778,"end":4262.671,"text":"這是問題或者是需要去回應的我想由當事人來說你們做一個思考能不能勝任你們再做一個最後的思考因為它本身就是有問題的一個"},{"start":4266.194,"end":4282.983,"text":"駐派未來能不能勝任這是一個問題那另外就是現在南非代表處我一直從去年都關切在這個事上從去年10月30號就就說要我們代表處要遷移之後"},{"start":4283.823,"end":4303.054,"text":"期限在今年的31號3月31號到了今年的4月份南非政府雖然還沒有具體的回應我方的協商的訴求但也沒有採取具體的行動但本席認為不放心在上個月21號執行部長的時候特別強調炸彈"},{"start":4306.056,"end":4332.512,"text":"為這個奶味拆除提起外交部要特別注意到發展沒想到這個南非的外交部及官網將我國的駐南非代表處降級為辦事處外突然又更改為住處資訊所以這樣的一個降級又降級對我國來講的邦交的精神都沒有把我們台灣的外交精神存在了"},{"start":4333.012,"end":4356.943,"text":"那像這樣的你們在當時提醒你們的時候要危機處理而且不斷要你們要去雙邊溝通所以你說有溝通了但是後面後面問題來了所以把我們的外交的這一些辦事處變成了一個降級到我們剛剛我所談的就是資訊處"},{"start":4359.604,"end":4371.418,"text":"這樣的一個立場對我們來講的話外交的困境又添上了一個課題部長你回答這個問題我感謝委員不斷的提醒確實我們這個"},{"start":4374.561,"end":4397.491,"text":"並還沒有完全拆彈 那他也會有可能新的動作不過我們的立場很清楚 臺灣跟南非的官司是建立在我們雙邊的協議那個才有效率 至於說片面的行動我們不已接受 也持續在交涉中那因為為什麼會有這樣子的小動作"},{"start":4398.851,"end":4409.816,"text":"大家也可以理解中國的壓力那他們也是想要可能要做一些怎麼樣的處理所以片面的去不管改名啦或者是把一些資訊喔把它隱含這個就是隱匿掉了這個其實是很像"},{"start":4417.13,"end":4436.755,"text":"比較是不成熟的做法那不只是說國際關切啦包括他們自己南非內部國會議員甚至他們自己執政聯盟裡面的政黨都不斷的表達就是反對這種片面行為因為如果南非是一個民主國家如果他遵守法律的話"},{"start":4437.355,"end":4455.864,"text":"他不應該片面這個形 可是為什麼這個樣子我們當然了解背後的政治壓力跟利害可能介入其間所以我們是很謹慎的就是在處理這個事情我們不會認為說這個危機已經過了他是壓力還是持續在尤其今年南非要召開G20他們是主辦國家"},{"start":4460.006,"end":4462.529,"text":"所以部長主席再給我一分鐘"},{"start":4472.301,"end":4494.998,"text":"在外交指令上,當我國不認同對方行為的時候以嚴重的程度不同,分別為表達關切、遺憾、反對和抗議但本席只看到部長受訪的時候表達一些非正式的意見並沒有看到外交部向南非表達官方的外交態度"},{"start":4495.578,"end":4516.171,"text":"所以連這個外交部的官網中也沒有對本事件的聲明或回應所以部長你有沒有去真正來表達我們非常的關切遺憾甚至表達強烈的反對有"},{"start":4517.432,"end":4543.066,"text":"我們也透過我們駐南非代表處表達關切遺憾反對還有包括抗議那也要求要啟動雙邊的談判那他們也要求我們給我們的回應我們也針對這個內容啊希望進行交涉可是他現在就先迴避跟我們直接面對面這有點在拖啦是他們而不是我們"},{"start":4544.127,"end":4558.635,"text":"我希望我們剛剛所講的一定要強烈的表達這是你們外交部的指令裡面強烈的表達我們不願意接受他們這樣子幫我們降級好不好是 謝謝我們來加強 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":4584.979,"end":4613.133,"text":"你好我們請部長部長好委員長部長總和外交是基本上是部長這一次的救人來的使命那我認為總和外交是第一步因為過去我們外交部不管是我過去在國安會任職還是在其他時間的話發表到外交部他是屬於叫輔助的性質"},{"start":4614.013,"end":4634.436,"text":"也都說他在做純粹的外交可是自從部長提到總和外交之後我發覺到這剛好符合台灣的這個因應國際情勢的一個最好的狀況包含經貿以及剛才省委員質詢的時候你也提到的說怎麼樣把各個不同的部會我們能夠把它彙整並且協助那在這個概念"},{"start":4635.737,"end":4658.793,"text":"我也要提醒就是說如果總和外交如果缺乏統籌或者是指揮系統那可能就沒有辦法形成協同效應那過去外交部可能大部分的時間當然是做輔助的那有各個不同的師各個不同的組織各個不同的科但是我想請教部長部長應該知道日本他在過去也有在戰後還有推展的外務一元化嗎是"},{"start":4661.178,"end":4678.844,"text":"部長知道他當然是經過他過去他在戰前包含他們的軍部經濟部門還有其他的部會他自己實質對外行動所以導致他的外交的戰略上面是沒有統整的那這個部分我在馬英九時代有看過"},{"start":4679.784,"end":4693.913,"text":"就是說包含它的農業部門外交部門它們沒有在協同就是說整個國家的方針農業在做自己的農業跟中國大量購買這個鳳梨導致我們中南部的產工全部都失衡"},{"start":4695.114,"end":4721.083,"text":"那個時代外交部基本上沒有在做事情為什麼 因為他們在外交修兵嘛我想大家還記得那個年代那現在不一樣了現在台灣的這個國際地位增高所以我們外交上面的能力當然是更加的不一樣所以我想部長請教一下目前我國對外的各個不同的這個談判議題戰略溝通是由外交部統籌還是由 比方說如果是貿易的話由經濟啊什麼這些統籌"},{"start":4722.883,"end":4751.408,"text":"其實依照我們憲政體制總統他主持國家大政方針外交是總統的權但是因為部會也都會跟外交有關當然比如說行政院也有政委負責經貿談判這個部分可是我們為什麼要提總和外交就是說外交要為我們各個部會的業務服務以外各個部會的業務也要為外交來服務"},{"start":4752.441,"end":4767.57,"text":"因為其實外國看台灣是看整體他不會去切割你的部會都是找外管所以我們希望一方面強化就是說政府內部的整合從總統府跟行政院比如說現在行政院有設經濟外交工作小組那就是跨部會"},{"start":4768.91,"end":4792.51,"text":"這樣子在這裡做溝通協調那我們也希望落實館長制在第一線打仗是一個團隊不是各自為政各個部會負責的只是我們台灣的他們的長官他必須整合成一個可以打仗的這個團隊在各個館處那至於怎麼去我們把業務的重點目標"},{"start":4794.111,"end":4816.085,"text":"設定出來其實經過這一整年我們已經很清楚我們台灣外交的重點是哪一些業務所以我們不是說只是為了整合而整合整合是為了要達到我們國家生存與發展的目標而且未來的館長或大使也不一定是所謂的只有念外交科系你可能了解"},{"start":4818.271,"end":4838.73,"text":"經貿、文化或是現在新興科技在外交上很重要所以未來的我們外交部的人才培訓也都是跨領域除了自己職業外交官的這些比較屬於protocol比較屬於正式的外交專業以外其他領域他也要具備因為你要跟人家交涉的時候人家關心的是那些領域的議題"},{"start":4840.291,"end":4857.618,"text":"謝謝部長那美國包含國務卿他出去代表的是整個國家整體經濟貿易環保科技整體而言他是在統括這一切那他說的每一句話他是有他的重量是有他的戰略意義的那我看到我們外交部有一些他對外援助的報告等等的"},{"start":4858.118,"end":4885.22,"text":"那我是認為說為了避免我相信你也知道最近有一些不同的一些地方政府他可能會去第三地像是香港什麼的那在那邊簽署什麼事情那有人說這是兩岸的那有可能他在第四個國家甚至是有違我國的外交戰略的所以我想一元化的意思就是說讓外交部做一個戰略性的統國統整也就是說各個部門"},{"start":4886.181,"end":4911.458,"text":"包含我們剛剛講從科技部農業部什麼我們的外交人員他必須要掌握這些議題必須要有一些我甚至是建議這個專責的這個駐點制度那過去在這個日本的外交部的官員他們甚至是派駐到後生勞動省非常長的一段時間那一段時間他輪調完之後再回到外務省他增加他對外這個他們"},{"start":4913.619,"end":4931.848,"text":"衛生 公共衛生包含製藥等等為什麼這跟外交有關啊這跟彈砲有關嘛 談判有關所以我認為我們是可以檢討一下這是一個很大的議題這個是一個很大的議題所以我不會在這一次諮詢完就結束因為這同時又回到我們之前在講的安全合格你如果跟人家出去但是你卻沒有"},{"start":4932.848,"end":4949.848,"text":"國防的相關的核可那但是你卻得到這麼多的外交資訊那這些資訊如果你同時你就同時具備外交人員跟國防人員的資訊都在你身上那你有沒有足夠的授權知道這些事情所以我們現在國家要走向一人化一體化的意思就是不可以說地方政府"},{"start":4950.228,"end":4969.706,"text":"在做一些外交政策或在簽訂一些其實不可以啦其實不管再怎麼樣都不可以簽訂或者是主導一些政策的時候是跟國家的大政方針是不一樣的所以我也鼓勵外交部在整體的國家戰略上面定期出白皮書我看到你們有出一些對外援助等等但是國家的外交"},{"start":4970.407,"end":4995.704,"text":"它的方向性當你定調之後其他的農業部門才不會模稜兩可而且外交也是必須要服務於我們的農業服務於我們的經濟談判這樣才不會有矛盾的狀況也才不會有地牌委員去質詢的時候外交部是講這樣子農業部是講另外一件事情經濟談判辦公室又講另外一件事情所以這個統整很重要就是基調要一致"},{"start":4996.344,"end":5011.955,"text":"如果沒有基調一致我還很記得就是2016 2017年的時候那時候好像在這一個北非吧我們有開那個COP 忘記是多少了那也是環境變遷大會各個部會全部在各自的房間裡面開會"},{"start":5013.536,"end":5028.232,"text":"我就說對 早上大家成會由外交部統整可能講一些鼓勵的話之後全面四散嘛那我覺得這很可惜我覺得那一次是有很多不同的部門從環保 從外交 從國安會全部都有派人"},{"start":5029.133,"end":5055.384,"text":"但是他們沒有一致性嘛就是大家還是分散性的所以我覺得部長講的這個總和外交就是會把總體戰力開始那我覺得這是一個很重要的開始所以我覺得部長不能夠把自己當部長而已他把自己當成是類似美國的這個國務卿他雖然他是等於是實質上的他雖然是外交部長但是他不僅僅只是外交部長他的順位什麼在美國都是很重要的"},{"start":5056.349,"end":5076.824,"text":"我很認同委員的就是說提的總和外交的方向我們會朝這個方向來辦理那我們也在編寫總和外交的報告另外我們也進行雙部長會議先從我們跟其他部會的合作項目那另外就是也是希望加強您講的在人事交流所以我們最近比如國科會"},{"start":5077.865,"end":5097.558,"text":"就有一位很資深的那很專業的在科技外交上我們也是把他聘到就是商請啊能夠到外交部那他以前也駐外國類似這種人才的交流也是一個重點最後一點就是說那個外交部在集合會議的時候不可以只尊重"},{"start":5098.218,"end":5117.733,"text":"我們尊重經貿辦公室我們尊重國防部必須要有外交上面你們自己的sense的發言來說可能這個地方不太對的話那要講話而不是只是單純形式上的參與形式上的參與我們常看到當你沒有發言沒有對話就不信所以最後就總和外交裡面很重要就是"},{"start":5118.593,"end":5138.298,"text":"戰略上要一致所以總統在歐戰結束他有參加還有我們自己在這個官邸那邊有正式的會館對 會館過去的那再來就是全部的中戰在日本不管是在長崎廣島都有紀念活動"},{"start":5139.238,"end":5163.495,"text":"那長期上面看起來是對我們沒有目前沒有相對的進展那我還是希望說在廣島上面做相應的努力因為它是一整套我們對於我們自己的看法就是台灣跟已經民主的國家站在一起那就算過去不民主的國家都可以轉型成功那我們的外交政策戰略是怎麼樣這個再麻煩部長謝謝 趙偉"},{"start":5166.357,"end":5173.767,"text":"好 謝謝委員謝謝陳冠廷的發言接下來由馬文晶委員上台質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請部長"},{"start":5189.093,"end":5193.417,"text":"部長早今天前面幾位委員大家可能關注的議題大概也都有很多是相同的那我們也就剛剛召委有提到的南非的這個部分因為去年十月還有今年一月三月南非政府其實他都有動作首先是把我們的名稱等級還有我們把它調降了"},{"start":5218.025,"end":5238.495,"text":"從台灣代表處把它降級成貿易辦事處然後第二個是要求我們要遷離首都這個也有很多次的機會在這裡其實跟部長都曾經有過詢答那到現在其實他們變本加厲現在直接在南非的官網上面他就刪除我們代表"},{"start":5240.636,"end":5258.697,"text":"住處代表廖文哲的資訊現在僅剩下三個比較低階的助理的名稱另外第二個是台灣住處的郵件地址相關的資訊他直接就把它改到約翰尼斯堡了"},{"start":5259.338,"end":5270.289,"text":"所以就這個部分因為部長也一直提到說我們目前的住處其實運作是正常的可是我們也擔心因為過去有一些我們的邦交國或者我們有一些相關的這些"},{"start":5276.291,"end":5282.435,"text":"其實他有過一些往例第一就是接下來他可能被斷水斷電或者會驅逐代表甚至就沒收我們的館產那外交部是不是有更積極的作為因為他們已經逐步一直在這樣做剛剛部長也提到說他們現在好像是他們在拖可是他在拖的過程當中是他們有動作而我們看不到我們有任何的動作這個部長現在是怎麼樣的做法"},{"start":5306.291,"end":5306.795,"text":"是吧"},{"start":5307.808,"end":5337.048,"text":"跟委員報告當然我們外交處境很困難我們就是實質上這個我們駐南非代表處是還正常在運作不過他不斷的有這一些不管片面的改名或者是說這個降級那我們也是不斷在交涉當中那因為今年是很特別我想今年這個南非要召開G20他跟中國的關係但同樣的跟美國的關係也是另外一個我們看到很緊張"},{"start":5338.448,"end":5358.66,"text":"那南非的總統最近也去訪美那之前川普總統還有這個盧比奧這個國務卿啊也都對於南非甚至驅除他駐美國的這個大使那國內也一樣他的這個不管是說在野黨連執政聯盟裡面的人也反對那他要片面的行動如果他違反協議或違法"},{"start":5360.76,"end":5363.823,"text":"這是有責任的所以為什麼他今天做這些動作看起來都好像在交代什麼那我們當然要審慎因應因為這隨時有可能會有一些行動您剛剛說的像美國他們有一些做法或者他們國內有一些做法那個倒是其次我們比較在乎的是我們的做法還有我們現在的處境因為"},{"start":5385.183,"end":5394.768,"text":"不管怎麼樣他已經做了而且我剛剛提到的狀況是不是有可能發生我們外交部要怎麼因應如果等到被斷水斷電代表被驅逐或我們所有的相關的人員被驅逐或者甚至我們的館產被沒收走到這一步的時候我們要怎麼辦這個部分是外交部應該要做的我們都做好應變計畫舉個例子好不好"},{"start":5410.337,"end":5436.745,"text":"就是不管是他如果採取一些非法行為我們應該怎麼因應那包括實際上的但確保我們領悟人員的安全或是國人辦理這一些事務的一個這個權利那我們都有因應的對策也有相對等的反應我想先前也談過"},{"start":5438.123,"end":5461.655,"text":"我們還是有一些可以就是反制他包括在經貿還有其他方面但是我們現在也不好先講啦因為他現在沒有實質上的給我們書面資料好不好因為現在顯然大概也提不出什麼樣具體的一個有效的應對的過程有一些策略必須要先準備好不能夠先講出來但是"},{"start":5463.536,"end":5466.838,"text":"我們是有反制他的 我說從雙邊的貿易我們是貿易 我們對他來講是順差 我們是逆差嘛這裡面很多的項目我們可以轉移啊 購買或投資如果他這麼做 他都不在乎連美國要處置他 他也不在乎可見其實我們的處置方式就是非洲這個"},{"start":5488.638,"end":5502.429,"text":"成長機會法案所以對他這些都不在乎的情況之下我們可以有什麼樣的有效的具體做法現在這樣看起來是要沒有啦所以我們請部長隨便提供給我們書面資料那個不是升高因為我們一直被挨打我們已經被羞辱"},{"start":5510.235,"end":5513.278,"text":"這個如果我們台灣沒有一個做法都沒有做我們聽不到嚴正的抗議給我們書面資料因為目前還看不到嘛書面資料請匯合提供那另外最近因為有一個人事的安排就是林昶佐可能要派駐芬蘭去"},{"start":5529.21,"end":5533.195,"text":"去作為我們的大使那在這裡我想要請教以他的資歷其實剛剛部長也提到可能有很多人他大概都可以升任可是我想要請教的是現在派他到芬蘭是期待他可以做什麼"},{"start":5549.022,"end":5570.462,"text":"我想在我們的總和外交下他是一方面價值外交嘛跟不管是人權文化這方面在北歐五國是特別重視那以他在NGO包括在這個國際特色組織還有他過去參加的國際會議是符合這些條件事實上每個國會議員包括委員您都足以升任我們的大使啦"},{"start":5571.002,"end":5576.066,"text":"姑且不論因為你說他過去在NGO的背景還有在立法委員任內的一個表現等等可是他現在大家可能會提到不管是他逃避兵役或者甚至像他沒有具備這樣的一個外交專業其實我覺得外交專業反而還是比較重要的剛剛部長提到的這些我想要請教的是我們目前"},{"start":5598.684,"end":5621.093,"text":"在我們職業外交官裡面我們找不到這樣的人才嗎可以具備這樣的條件然後又有經驗然後又是我們考試經過考試進步服務的這樣的外交人員難道沒有這樣的人才適合去那裡嗎跟委員報告我們是現在做區域聯防來推動總和外交我北歐五國我是有整體佈局的"},{"start":5622.593,"end":5627.698,"text":"芬蘭丹麥瑞典挪威冰島等等所以這個整體的佈局是會交叉的火網那產生最大的綜合效應是基於這個區域就像中東歐部長您說到聯訪的這個部分因為我們一直在我剛剛詢問的也是"},{"start":5640.449,"end":5662.796,"text":"為什麼會是林昶佐來擔任代表我們的專業的外交官沒有辦法做到你說像要區域聯防因為現在包括像美國其實他自己都不想對北約有更大的付出所以我們現在是要參與聯防是我們要出錢的意思不是 我們區域聯防啦"},{"start":5663.456,"end":5665.639,"text":"因為從過去到現在你說這北歐五國我們用現實面來看過去包括像芬蘭他們在很多的代表其實都很直接講話都非常直白他們跟我們的關係就僅止於"},{"start":5682.677,"end":5691.666,"text":"可能在用餐大家在很多的場合上面可能就是這樣子的一個關係而已他們講得非常直接今天如果我們對於這個北歐五國有特別的安排顯然包括我們自己專業外交官都沒有辦法你們認為沒有辦法去做"},{"start":5702.657,"end":5708.522,"text":"那可見我們是不是有什麼樣的承諾或者我們要做出什麼樣的一個付出或者我們要出什麼樣的錢才需要特殊的人去擔任這樣的職務今天在這裡我想部長是不是可以簡要的說明一下其實芬蘭在二五戰爭發生之後已經申請加入北約其實芬蘭的民防全社會防禦任性是跟台灣現在交流包括像海嵐的事件被破壞"},{"start":5732.36,"end":5759.383,"text":"這個都是台灣現在跟包括跟歐洲這一些北歐或者是波羅的海或者是英國他們是跟海洋國家的關係很緊密我們跟芬蘭也已經簽了航權就是今年二月所以未來也會直航是這樣的一個戰略要地牽動的北歐還有波羅的海甚至中東歐我們具有外交國防委員會專長的人到那邊去我是覺得是會"},{"start":5760.624,"end":5767.469,"text":"進一步來加成總和外交的效應對您剛剛一直提到說他是在外交國防的這樣子的一個背景可是我要再次提醒因為好像沒有辦法提出來說我們專業外交官為什麼做不到第一這個會打擊到我們職業外交官的士氣因為本來就有很多資歷足夠的這些資深的職業外交官其實他是可以派任的其實我們最重要的是用人為財還有能力"},{"start":5790.524,"end":5797.529,"text":"今天如果,我說的是職業外交官喔,今天人家是不一步一步地往上爬現在你已經把他排除這些專業的外交官第二個是這些駐外的單位,包括像瑞士、希臘、愛爾蘭等等其實我們有很多的外管,我們人力是不足的今天如果你用的是沒有經驗的這樣子的一個外交人員用特任的這樣的方式去派任"},{"start":5821.025,"end":5824.348,"text":"他要怎麼樣去領導這些專業的外交團隊他怎麼樣交出很好的外交成績我覺得這個都是存疑的所以在這裡我們還是希望我們在用人尤其現在面對所有的"},{"start":5837.142,"end":5839.123,"text":"整個國際處境其實是比較凶險的狀況之下像歐盟現在其實他們也急著要跟中國大陸其實要有更密切的這些往來所以在這個部分我們還是希望我們不要"},{"start":5853.089,"end":5856.412,"text":"對我們專業外交官其實在這段時間其實很明顯的看得出來他們在升遷的上面其實都受到很嚴重的打壓如果都是派這些特任的像這些外交官其實我們為他們報區在這裡我們還是要提醒如果他可以特別為我們做什麼是不是會後也請外交部提供一個熟面報告"},{"start":5877.731,"end":5883.377,"text":"因為這個案子還在作業中,如果總統府正式公告,因為委員官我也是很談人啦,心理說明啦就是你至少做一個比較嘛,就是說職業外交官做不到的,而他可以做得到,請給我們一個說法是在等正式公告之後"},{"start":5897.751,"end":5901.315,"text":"因為現在都是外面的報導因為已經都報導了那當然我作為一個政務官我也是比較能夠給你資訊沒關係因為總統大概他會不會公告他不會因為說我們提出這樣的一個比較或者說法"},{"start":5913.807,"end":5918.408,"text":"有所改變剛剛提到的海嵐其實海嵐在我們台灣周邊的海域跟北歐五國其實是不太一樣的我們現在面對大陸的不管漁船或者其他的鐵殼船或者其他的這些海嵐會受到攻擊或者破壞跟北歐五國是不可同日而語所以我們現在已經要改我們現在已經要漸漸不要用海嵐了所以我們跟這麼遠的國家需要做什麼"},{"start":5942.896,"end":5949.303,"text":"在我現在的理解來看好像我們必須要付出更多的資源這是我的理解如果不會我們希望給我們一些好的一個說法跟一個條件好不好在作業中再跟委員報告 謝謝謝謝馬文卿的質詢接下來有林楚音上台質詢"},{"start":5974.925,"end":5979.862,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請林部長部長可以慢慢來喔 可以喝一口水沒有問題"},{"start":5984.363,"end":5999.414,"text":"好 部長早安委員好我想今天大家都非常的關注就是我的前同事林昶佐委員會不會成為林昶佐大使我想對於外交的派任那絕對是經過國家整體的考量跟發展我非常同意就是目前以台灣的狀況尤其是今天519 明天520中國一定會處心積慮的在外交場合"},{"start":6011.843,"end":6039.995,"text":"或者是外交的場域給予非常多的這個施壓或者是脅迫那麼第一線的外交同仁確實是非常辛苦的那我也感受到就是我們今天院內有許多的同仁針對長佐的這個所謂派任芬蘭這樣的一個過程給予了很多的指教首先我要先特別這個提出來的是我想這個外交的工作一定是因地制宜那麼"},{"start":6041.455,"end":6067.884,"text":"雖然這個過程當中很多人會問說那特任到底有沒有其必要性本席就想要舉例就是我在東吳的時候的一位老師謝志偉 謝大使謝大使是我們德文系的教授 系主任那麼這些年來他在德國擔任大使部長您覺得他做得如何他的表現很好 有目共睹而且為外交注入了活力因為他非常有創意"},{"start":6068.643,"end":6075.206,"text":"好 那麼另外就是我們首位的音樂大使就是我們國台交的團長派駐了奧地利我們的這位劉學勇劉大使那麼目前您覺得他表現得如何"},{"start":6084.332,"end":6109.817,"text":"就是奧地利人很喜歡他因為他從文化甚至在街頭都會人家請他指揮那個樂團表演就是就從我們跟奧地利的關係來講真的突破了一些我們過去比較傳統就是只有比較正物啦他從文化切入事實上他們他轄區還包括蘇奧維尼克跟克派西亞那走訪的時候我們也看到這整個區域都動起來"},{"start":6111.455,"end":6138.033,"text":"本席特别要点出这两位啦当然我相信其他我们住在其他住在国的友邦的大使其实都是非常努力希望让台湾被看见那么目前对于常佐来说过去他在立法院除了是两届的立法委员然后资深的国防外交委员之外我相信因为闪灵乐团在欧洲尤其是本席其实特别到过芬兰"},{"start":6140.436,"end":6150.692,"text":"確實這個芬蘭對於閃靈樂團是非常了解的這個我相信就跟派任我們的這個首位音樂大使到奧地利一樣是有一曲同工之妙那麼剛剛也會特別問到就是說那麼給予"},{"start":6154.557,"end":6160.962,"text":"我們從外交特考上來的外交官們到底有沒有機會來派任我們知道北歐五國當中其實是有兩個國家包括挪威跟冰島是我們沒有駐館的所以我們還有瑞典跟丹麥對不對那麼請問一下瑞典丹麥我們是專業的外交官系統上來的大使嗎"},{"start":6177.535,"end":6202.007,"text":"是,瑞典斯古瑞森他是專業的職業外交官丹麥是我們之前駐美的副代表到那邊去擔任我們的代表,就升任愉快所以本席想要給部長一個解釋的機會因為剛剛您提到所謂的北歐五國七日聯防各司其職其實我覺得是非常重要的因為"},{"start":6203.788,"end":6218.957,"text":"有一些當然我們講大使在外交工作上面需要有資深的外交的歷練但是有一些所謂的亮點或者是能夠跟地方做一些場域上的整合或者是能夠代表台灣讓台灣的價值被看到那是更為重要的那麼"},{"start":6223.039,"end":6241.162,"text":"對於如果真的是由林昶佐來擔任芬蘭大使的話那麼您期望整體在北歐的佈局或者是總統所預計的佈局會是什麼樣的方向跟想像其實北歐剛好五國這是總和外交可以在這邊來推動的很好的地區"},{"start":6242.463,"end":6260.171,"text":"一方面價值外交這些國家都是老牌的民主的成熟外交甚至有些還之前被蘇聯統治過所以他們的反控對台灣是很有善另外就是文化、人權這些價值面的外交"},{"start":6260.811,"end":6280.535,"text":"再來就是從安全上來講因為他們面對到俄烏戰爭之後都紛紛比如說以芬蘭申請加入北約這以前是不可想像因為他是比較中立性質的就是說這個威脅未來也會持續所以跟台灣他們很關心台灣面對中國威脅的經驗彼此的交流像這個海嵐其實後來發現就是中國的船用其他國籍然後在芬蘭"},{"start":6285.336,"end":6311.442,"text":"跟這個愛沙尼亞這他們是直接受到衝擊的因為這個北歐這個地方海南很多電信然後各種的需要的包括傳輸這些天然氣能源等等所以這個是安全的層面也是一種同盟外交再來就是其實是經濟外交上其實這些國家跟我們的經貿也很互補那未來的非紅供應鏈我想他們都必須採取都必須要這個選邊"},{"start":6313.842,"end":6341.289,"text":"這個時候台灣就是飛鴻供應鏈裡面最具備可以我想我們是製造大國然後跟他們很多的品牌像設計所以在經貿上面透過我們希望比如說增加航線航權所以最近是芬蘭已經簽了那其他幾個國家也在洽談中我們可能會突破直接飛北歐以後國人去看極地的這個美景也不用再轉機我想這個也都是經貿外交裡面的一環"},{"start":6341.849,"end":6351.367,"text":"好那我剛剛再補充一下其實林昶佐委員大家可能不太了解蔡前總統現在去哥本哈可能像那個民主峰會他都是參加都是"},{"start":6352.145,"end":6375.946,"text":"主壇人耶而且他還受拜登的邀請出席這個在華盛頓峰會這個亞洲國會的議員所以他的經驗包括IPEC委員就很清楚他是促成台灣參與還有包括這個很多交流活動更不用講他在國際特色組織擔任台灣分會長北歐的人權特色組織大家都知道包括台灣的民主化"},{"start":6376.587,"end":6395.455,"text":"也很多人受到他們幫助所以我是覺得我們就持平來看啦這些條件是都符合做一個大使那我是個人認為啦像在座啦不只在座啦外交國安委員會的每一個立法委員都有資格擔我們中華民國台灣駐外的大使跟代表這個是民主國家的常態"},{"start":6396.095,"end":6423.768,"text":"好 其實部長講到這裡我想面對現在台灣的外交的困境本席會特別問這個問題是因為我相信不論是從正常管道上來的資深優秀的外交同仁我們是予以肯定的尤其他們在第一線的打拼即使現在我們是以特任的方式來任命非從外交系統出來的外交官但是其實他們被派出去之後代表的都是我們的國家中華民國"},{"start":6425.669,"end":6432.737,"text":"我相信大家的目標都是一致的那麼至於有一些委員特別去質疑說這個從外交系統上來就沒有機會嗎我倒是認為不用從單一的一個點去看這一個人因為我相信在這樣的過程當中都是有其國家上面的考量就像當時我們派"},{"start":6447.553,"end":6467.606,"text":"謝長廷前院長去當駐日大使因為我們派了一個院長等級的代表我們對這個邦交國或者是這個友邦的認同支持跟尊重那麼現在我們派一個在當地享譽盛名或者是說在音樂界上面或是在自由人權上面作為發聲的一個前國會議員我相信應該也是有同樣的用處"},{"start":6474.994,"end":6499.78,"text":"其實最近的任命很多職業外交官包括到希臘到愛爾蘭之前都是比較屬於政務任用甚至在印尼都改由職業外交官我們會視財視所因為他有比例限制我們也沒有多聘總統基於他整體外交考量的佈局我們就是支持然後全力來辦理 謝謝"},{"start":6500.66,"end":6514.814,"text":"好 那麼我們也要給這個外交同仁加油因為明天520喔我相信這個中國在外交上面的打壓或打擊一定會層次不窮但是我相信我們的外交同仁都很有經驗也可以做得很好謝謝 辛苦了"},{"start":6533.232,"end":6535.278,"text":"謝謝主席 那我們有請林佳龍 林部長"},{"start":6544.724,"end":6572.589,"text":"這個部長好那麼呢今天大家都非常關注關於林昶佐這個前委員的人事任命案那您剛也鬆口了這個任命案正在辦理當中那您剛剛呢在其他委員的質詢當中提到了因為呢林昶佐委員他過去有參與過很多比方像是重金屬音樂是芬蘭很喜歡民眾他們很喜歡的一個文化所以出任芬蘭大使您覺得是有幫助的但對一般民眾來說必須坦白的講就是酬庸"},{"start":6574.43,"end":6601.807,"text":"87%的芬蘭民眾使用芬蘭語那請問一下林昶佐未來擔任大使的時候應該要如何跟芬蘭的政界還有民眾溝通各位報告芬蘭人幾乎都講英語都可以講啦那北歐的國家他們國際化請問我去過那邊的民眾他們講的還有官員講的都是芬蘭語除非你必須要跟他講英文而且林昶佐委員他的英文程度如何我也沒有把握"},{"start":6602.347,"end":6613.656,"text":"那請問一下這樣子的一個語言是否未來是需要事務官協助仍然是需要我們外交體系的事務官協助他去跟芬蘭的政府要員去做溝通的"},{"start":6615.339,"end":6634.51,"text":"我們外交部會講芬蘭語的我可能要做個調查如果要這樣的標準那當然就是很嚴格我們如果是直接在芬蘭的所有的外交官網上的話就是剛剛馬文君委員講的如果你是說原本派人的網上生的話第一個他對於芬蘭相關的政治是理解的"},{"start":6634.85,"end":6663.905,"text":"第二個你不管是用英語或是芬蘭語來講的話呢他都是能夠雙管齊下的那今天林場所的這個人事案他未來勢必是需要有翻譯或者是由我們的事務官來擔任那為什麼不直接由事務官去擔任那這個是大家就覺得有所質疑的地方因為如果今天沒有外交的專業只是因為他過去有所表演就可以滿足所謂的外交啦就叫他多去表演多去唱歌就好啦那為什麼要擔任大使呢"},{"start":6664.918,"end":6680.161,"text":"其實我們在那邊擔任快六年的張秀珍代表即將內定回來接國傳司長他也不會講芬蘭語你看他可以促成台灣跟芬蘭那為什麼不讓類似的人繼續擔任為什麼不讓類似的人繼續擔任類似的職務而是用這種讓大家認為說酬庸的方法然後來去聘用一個曾經他只是在台灣擔任立法委員的人"},{"start":6692.423,"end":6720.022,"text":"那我要講的是如果這個人他是非常認真工作的話那也未嘗不可可是部長您知道林長佐委員他在擔任228事件基金會董事的時候那2007年受邀擔任董事您剛剛說他的一個重點在於人權嘛那228的這個事件基金會那當然是一個重要的人權的委員會嘛那你知道在第六屆第二任期裡面基金會開的15次董事會議林長佐前委員他參加過幾次嗎"},{"start":6722.998,"end":6744.068,"text":"這個細節我不瞭解一次 只有去過一次在您剛剛所說的這麼重要的一個人權相關的組織裡面開了15次的會議裡面只出了一次的出席出席率是6.7%引發了228事件的受難者家屬的批評質疑他的轉型正義的認真程度"},{"start":6745.071,"end":6773.878,"text":"所以如果他在台湾担任228董事的时候他出席率都只有6.7%那他到了这个芬兰你怎么有能力去确认他能够升任这个工作呢他在台湾都做不好了你觉得他到芬兰能够做得好这也是让我觉得很奇怪的是另外再来我要请教兵役的问题在芬兰的兵役里面呢请问如果今天有逃兵假病那是有没有相关法律后果的在芬兰"},{"start":6775.151,"end":6790.945,"text":"或者是說您對於芬蘭的兵役制度有沒有了解他們是不是有要求強制必須要當兵才能夠符合芬蘭的相關法律有有嘛所以他們有分成軍事服役最起碼要當五個月多以上"},{"start":6791.525,"end":6796.606,"text":"那我們現在派去的這個臨場所這個什麼大使的完全沒有當過兵這種情況在芬蘭裡面那你要大家如何自處我們派一個閃兵的我們派一個沒有當兵的去到芬蘭這個國家那我們自己都站不住腳啦我們今天要去談說兩岸之間的風險要去談說可能今天的所謂的國防熱性要去談說今天所謂的相關的威脅那你說芬蘭要加入北約"},{"start":6819.372,"end":6825.916,"text":"但是結果我們派去的大使連兵都沒有做過連中華民國的兵都沒有做過這樣子的情況你覺得合適嗎?"},{"start":6828.429,"end":6855.165,"text":"這個部分會由他當事人來做說明當事人做說明 你們在抱怨他的時候那沒有想過這個問題嗎因為林昶佐委員沒有當兵這是大家都知道的事情林昶佐委員擔任228的董事沒有出席這也是大家都知道的事情我們先前沒有針對這個部分去做考量就會被大家認為是酬庸所以我希望部長您也可以特別出這一點這不是酬庸啦他說民眾大家的感受就是酬庸啦"},{"start":6857.967,"end":6869.595,"text":"你們有你們的任命你們有你們的任命的權利你們有你們任命的權利但是民眾也會民眾自己有自我的這個公平在心中另外我想要問的是有關於這個365天賴清德總統這個上任的總體檢那這個在最近就昨天把就公佈了一個"},{"start":6878.921,"end":6882.103,"text":"Podcast的專訪那裡面這個賴清的總統講到關於兩岸之間的關係所以我們今天這是外交部可是兩岸跟外交之間現在也有非常密切的關聯性那賴清的總統他說"},{"start":6894.068,"end":6922.126,"text":"中國是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司如果你要併我的公司你要提條件啊不是台灣來提條件那我對於這樣的併購說我本人是沒有辦法接受的因為我覺得在任何情況之下第一個兩岸之間不是公司第二個也沒有所謂的併購不管對岸提了什麼樣的條件我們都不能去接受而且我們是反對被中共單方面的去併吞要支持中華民國的主權跟主體性的"},{"start":6922.566,"end":6942.231,"text":"那另外當加拿大總理卡尼跟川普總統見面的時候大家知道川普有一度說他們要併吞這個加拿大那加拿大的總理說什麼呢他們說加拿大是非賣品永遠不賣所以我想要問一下賴清德總統他把這個中共跟中華民國形容成大小公司的這個併購說那甚至說大陸可以提條件"},{"start":6946.292,"end":6966.221,"text":"這個話之後呢有沒有任何外管或智庫對於這樣子的說法對外交部有產生一些討論或是傳遞任何的訊息有沒有什麼要去做澄清的這是比喻啦我想不管是這個比喻合適嗎我意思是說不管主權或產權或人權都是不可以被併吞的啦"},{"start":6966.961,"end":6971.923,"text":"當然啊 那為什麼要講說 講說併購說的人又不是我 是賴清德賴總統啊那我們是反對的啊 我們沒有認為台灣是中華人民共和國的一部分我們是反對的 但是提出說可以併我的公司要提條件這個是賴清德總統說 所以我要問的是"},{"start":6990.208,"end":6996.756,"text":"在這番言論出來之後國際上面有沒有任何的相關反應來詢問這句話到底是什麼意思這個應該去問中國啦對 我在問說來問因為這是賴總統講的話這不是習近平講的話所以我要問的是說在這番話出來以後"},{"start":7007.208,"end":7023.623,"text":"有沒有任何外管或是外部人員智庫人員來詢問為什麼賴清德總統會講出這一句話因為這讓我也感到非常意外因為他這樣的說法我個人是完全不能接受的你不能只看這一段你要看整個內容我有看全部了但是這一段話他確實就是這個比喻是否適當"},{"start":7026.225,"end":7034.309,"text":"台灣的主權屬於我們國民全體我們是民主國家產生的政權只有我們台灣人民可以決定我們自己的未來連提條件都不應該你就不應該講說大陸你可以來提條件這句話如果由我來講請問會得到多少的抨擊中國根本就不提條件所以這個就是有點用弓矢之盾"},{"start":7051.798,"end":7062.243,"text":"所以你覺得這樣的說法很好可以繼續講因為他就是說我們是他的根本不帶任何條件我們反對啊我們反對啊我們反對啊是所以說你要提條件啊我們當然反對被捅啊那哪有什麼公司大公司小公司的差別啊我沒有覺得說中國大陸是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司而且還可以併購還可以提條件我沒有這樣覺得啊不是大小就可以被併人或被併那可以提條件嗎"},{"start":7081.172,"end":7096.926,"text":"大陸今天要跟台灣提條件可以提條件嗎我們是他的他連條件都不提他說你要提條件啊上面寫的清清楚楚的那大陸沒有提條件那是他的事情但是我們的總統提到說要不要提條件這個是我們的總統自己講的"},{"start":7103.371,"end":7124.16,"text":"所以當我們的總統自己講說大陸你可以提條件啊的時候對於中華民國包含我們的民眾來說是會有一些緊張的而且以我來說我是一個不能認同的所以我想要問的是所以最後我要問喔所以所有的外管跟智庫都沒有針對這一段話來對外交部或是說任何的相關單位提出詢問沒有"},{"start":7126.101,"end":7132.844,"text":"因為中共連提條件都不要這就呈現這個問題他就是併吞台灣不擇手段啊我們反對這件事情嘛那為什麼要談說公司訂購的事情呢這個他們講是他們的事情可是我們的總統自己去談訂購說那這當然會引發大家的質疑跟困惑嘛"},{"start":7146.01,"end":7156.103,"text":"所以我的意思是說要嘛外交部可以解釋可以澄清我給你們一個機會要嘛我要詢問的是有沒有人看到這個話之後覺得很奇怪來詢問為什麼賴清德總統在520的時候會講出這番話"},{"start":7163.014,"end":7189.54,"text":"賴總統的立場很清楚我每天都很清楚他不管是這個四個堅持或四個這個所謂和平的支柱並跟我說是第一次講並跟我說是第一次講對吧這是舉例啦對並跟我說的舉例是第一次舉對吧過去沒有舉過這個例子這是第一次我想正式的那個媒體的訪問嘛對啊第一次嘛所以我想說這個第一次那會不會有第二次第三次第四次如果您認為是一個很恰當的比喻的話"},{"start":7191.964,"end":7211.134,"text":"這是個比喻我們說這個比喻很好以後都可以經常的去做這個比喻那您認為接下來繼續用這樣子的一個比喻來類比兩岸之間的關係在國際上 在外交上來說是好還是壞現在凸顯中共就是不會跟我們提條件嘛他就是 我們是他的"},{"start":7211.954,"end":7238.717,"text":"就是這是前提啊一個中國的原則就是這個樣子嘛對我們剛剛都講說我們反對被武統嘛就是說在國際上喔和平解決爭議才是前提啦和平解決爭議才是前提那對方要提條件來的話我們也可以考慮我覺得我們不能考慮啊有什麼好考慮的中華民國就是我們不能退讓的底線沒有大公司跟小公司的差別也沒有訂購的可能性這是我的立場跟主張"},{"start":7239.978,"end":7258.746,"text":"我想應該 還有國會這些原則我們都可以坐下來談在國際政治上那以色列跟巴勒斯坦都可以坐下來談那為什麼加拿大為什麼加拿大的總理他可以直接說我們是非賣品永遠不賣然後結果在台灣我們的總統講說我們可以互相來看併購啊你來提條件啊為什麼兩國差異這麼大台灣的主權屬於國民全體那我們是所以是不是非賣品"},{"start":7269.831,"end":7277.533,"text":"你覺得台灣中華民國是不是非賣品我不用這個字眼因為你到時候又講說要不要賣要不要賣對 是不是非賣品嘛這個同樣是被講說可能會被併購啊可能會被這個併吞啊等等的加拿大為什麼可以總理講得這麼清楚就是非賣品"},{"start":7288.496,"end":7310.501,"text":"而我們的總統還在講什麼併購不併購所以因為時間的關係我建議外交部回去要重新包含跟總統說明這一番話已經引起台灣很多輿論的討論那即使你在這裡澄清即使你說這個賴總統的這個外交政策還有兩岸政策一向非常的清楚但是我也必須講所謂的併購說是他第一次提出"},{"start":7311.061,"end":7336.91,"text":"如果你們覺得這種併購說的比喻非常合適的話那我來繼續提啊如果覺得不合適的話那請修正其實賴總統這個談話的要成立的前提就是台灣不是中華人民共和國的一部分台灣有辦法反抗如果我們是對方的一部分我們怎麼談我們沒有要用中華民國是中華人民共和國的一部分沒有 從來就沒有"},{"start":7338.55,"end":7354.051,"text":"比较我想这个立场很清楚就台湾不是中国的一部分中华民国当然不是中华人民共和国的一部分啊他说是我们认为不是啊他想要引力同意但我们认为不是啊这跟并购有什么关系啊"},{"start":7354.491,"end":7360.317,"text":"他不是只有武力統一為什麼要講說要提條件為什麼要講說中共要提條件無論他提什麼樣的條件我們都要反對因為台灣是非賣品他提了什麼條件他沒有提條件所以不管今天中國大陸要提什麼條件我們站在中華民國的主權立場上我們都要反對的啊"},{"start":7377.359,"end":7404.717,"text":"這好像跟貴黨的立場有一點不一樣沒有 完全沒有 是你不了解我的立場沒有 是你不了解我的立場並沒有 我認為中華民國就是非賣品我認為中華民國就是非賣品沒錯 所以不應該講怎麼辦 並不並夠這樣子的一個比喻並不並夠的這樣的比喻 我認為是不恰當的因為中華民國是非賣品 謝謝好 中華 我要講不管台灣也好 中華民國也好都不是中華民國有一部分"},{"start":7405.984,"end":7418.534,"text":"我們一直說 我剛剛也從來沒有說是一部分中華民國絕對不是中華人民共和國的一部分 謝謝謝謝 習小新委員上台之心接下來有賴世寶委員上台之心謝謝主席 一級格先進有請外交部的林部長"},{"start":7441.377,"end":7464.243,"text":"林副總你好你好這個讓你turn the gear剛才大家一直問你林昌佐等一下我再問好了是我先問你一下另外的題目好這個關於這個教宗前教宗方濟克的商禮以及現在新的教宗梁世世舊址請問你"},{"start":7468.55,"end":7479.455,"text":"教廷跟中華民國有沒有邦交有有邦交那當然要爭取總統或者副總統參與啊為什麼都爭取不到不對怎麼這麼難"},{"start":7482.765,"end":7483.265,"text":"為什麼我們沒辦法爭取到我們的總統 副總統去 為什麼"},{"start":7500.919,"end":7515.222,"text":"我們當然是希望有這樣子的機會那這一次經過雙邊的這個溝通那認為由陳前副總統當然總統特使是比較好的安排怎麼比較好 外企特區最好啦誰會知道 如果不想消滅錢就可以啦有政治邦交國 哪裡有這個浪浪陳建能去的那不如你去就好了"},{"start":7527.544,"end":7533.348,"text":"陳前副總統有他在國際上的地位不是啦而且他跟教廷的關係是長久的你這樣說我們就不要邦加國了啊那個叫實質外交的關係啊是不是部長這一部分老實講外交部做得很爛啦大扣分啦不然聽一下說你們爭取怎麼樣請問是來支持中國大陸大家嗎"},{"start":7554.617,"end":7563.259,"text":"當然有啊 中國是什麼都會打壓的啊不管是任何事情一推奧白虎啊 中華民國的外交部長就好做了我們只要呼吸 中共也會打壓所以中華民國外交部長很好做啊只要不順利就說啊 叫他打壓在國際上真的是我們外交的困境你也了解我們也在不斷的突破中國大陸對台灣的打壓幾十年來都如此"},{"start":7581.172,"end":7584.674,"text":"他不是今天在打壓也不會說林鄭月娥當部長在打壓always 打壓他跟我們有邦交國我要強調是這個他跟我有邦交國 排不出我們的總統也排不出我們的副總統那是有夠假的我這部長有夠假的 真是的啊 臭婆娘是不是有夠假的 真的我講這個話你接受嗎"},{"start":7609.943,"end":7623.769,"text":"我認為 我不接受啊你不接受 你說很棒其實外交是很複雜的委員也了解我們跟這個教廷的關係要能夠維繫可能喔 然後我們也今天跟我們有正式邦交國這麼重要的慶典我們派不出我們的總統 副總統沒有辦法去你說你同學覺得怎麼樣我想新的教宗他應該也會有新的作為啦我們這個也是有所期待"},{"start":7639.295,"end":7641.636,"text":"你是準備要斷交是不是我們希望關係可以不斷的再提升請問你今年度不會斷交嗎比如說這個一年前委員也問過我我剛上任的時候我們就說"},{"start":7656.294,"end":7673.348,"text":"我們就是把12個邦交國都顧好這是基本的但是我們還是要除了顧邦還要容邦希望能夠在外交空間走出去這個純潔能區我沒有意見因為它又有天主教的背景但是我在意的是它是我們的邦交國"},{"start":7676.929,"end":7686.076,"text":"不能夠只有搞實質外交關係正式外交關係請問你有沒有跟他們提出來說要請總統或是副總統去有沒有提出來我們都有溝通有沒有提出來 正式提出來陳副總統他也轉達了總統的致賀函面交他們也有回覆我問你 你有沒有正式跟他說我們要找我們的 請我們的總統出席"},{"start":7706.371,"end":7709.973,"text":"我們當然有列入我們的選項你有沒有跟他講啦我們透過駐教廷的大使他們說NO他們負責的國務院嘛就是還是原來的人嘛"},{"start":7720.519,"end":7745.09,"text":"國務院院長他們覺得這樣的安排是比較就是說很好的安排那我們覺得對長久來看我們的跟這個教廷的關係一定要建立在這樣的互信然後不斷去提升那過去有一些限制我們希望能夠突破什麼限制"},{"start":7747.216,"end":7766.247,"text":"因為大家應該也了解2018年這個涉及到的這個教廷跟中國的主教任命臨時協定那自從那個之後那個頒一張粉牌的一些這個帳一格一格算啦政策啦我們看喔這個今年的WHA 也是供給CPTPP 大家說要去 也沒有"},{"start":7770.589,"end":7787.938,"text":"到現在為止萊豬也吃了核食也吃不了什麼都說那個你們以前的次長李存啊還公開說勒辯論的時候說只要吃了萊豬就可以加入CPTPP啊這樣咕咕咕啊CPTPP也沒有 都在騙啦都在騙啦 外交部變成說謊部啊"},{"start":7793.116,"end":7798.144,"text":"這個是真的很悲哀的事情好最後一個題目回到今天大家很熱門的問請問你林昶佐到底是最早誰提出來的"},{"start":7803.649,"end":7829.54,"text":"林昶佐要當這個大使是你提出來的是不是任何大使代表這個都是總統所任命的所以總統交給你你就發布我外交部長當然我會綜合考量也會建議那以我們各個我們現在總和外交的推動來適材適所來安排駐外的這個大使跟代表"},{"start":7830.524,"end":7851.912,"text":"對啦 我是不知道啦 他是要去 現在是芬蘭欠歌手是不是欠歌手芬蘭不是只有重金屬音樂 芬蘭人權 安全 經貿 觀光都非常的發展我們不能夠小看了芬蘭不然我不知道林昶佐最主要就是他很會唱歌啊"},{"start":7853.252,"end":7871.981,"text":"他是以前你們的同事內兩屆的外交國防委員會而且就是他代表台灣到包括丹麥的民主峰會還受拜登總統之邀去華埔你這樣王定理更適合也是適合啊你也很適合啊做了這麼久的外交國防的召委我覺得委員您也非常適合您具備的資歷真的是這個擔任大使啊真的可以說駕輕就熟啊"},{"start":7880.965,"end":7895.935,"text":"這樣後來就盡量讓大使都娶女兒就對了美國就是這樣 國會議員去擔任大使的比比皆是這是未來的趨勢是不是現在就是如此 不是說只有未來 過去也是那就是先預祝穩定議員會當大使"},{"start":7899.537,"end":7903.32,"text":"不是這樣啦 意思是這樣 現在進行司都要找我們的立委當大使我是第一次聽到啦國會議員啦 美國的國會議員當大使的 算起來我想我幾百人去了好啦 我跟你講啦"},{"start":7915.626,"end":7940.796,"text":"林昶佐他去擔任大使給外界的感觸就是是大陸人不知道還是沒有外交官 外交官資深的像現在坐在這裡面的一堆外交官心裡他沒有XXX我都不相信委員您上次問的時候就好幾個現在去當大使了像那個住印尼的你最左邊那一個人那個他也很想當大使他時間到了也會去當他還沒有當你看到"},{"start":7943.244,"end":7962.602,"text":"這裏面都有資格,而且很多人其實都...你說奇怪,你說那邊的人要做大使,這裏面的人要做大使,整間都要做大使我跟你講,比如像希臘,愛爾蘭,還有這個以前都是比較屬於非職業外交官現在都由職業外交官去擔任大使,最近的"},{"start":7963.407,"end":7965.169,"text":"職業會教官林昌祖不是職業會教官吧我們領悟局長去希臘還有我們的那個去我們的那個原社會主任去愛爾蘭我總結一句話就結束了你的意思就是說未來"},{"start":7983.442,"end":7992.485,"text":"立委 中國立委的出任外交官的機會很大外交國安委員會特別是很適合啦 外交國安委員會現在做不吞黨派都很適合第二個 未來越多越多不是外交官擔任大使這有一個比例的限制啦 那有時的名額啦 我們都是"},{"start":8007.429,"end":8025.414,"text":"就是視財視所為主不是因為名額要可以賺多少我們還是職業外交官除了芬蘭比較肯欠歌手以外我找不出理由說為什麼找他去當大使了謝謝來 多才多藝也是好事接下來由黃國昌委員執行那待會我們楊瓊瑜委員上來執行之後我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":8041.147,"end":8063.856,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩有請部長部長,上一次見面的時候,我問你何仁傑的事情然後我說,他是不是該辦特殊採訪而沒有辦我說是然後你說政風事會回去處理,一個禮拜會有結果"},{"start":8065.866,"end":8089.956,"text":"結果下一次在外交國防委員會的時候那個時候你應該有邀功沒有來結果真相大白你們外交部翻供所以賀仁傑本來就不用辦特殊查核部長規定是基本要辦一般查核但他所接觸的業務應該辦特殊查核但沒有辦嗎"},{"start":8091.47,"end":8114.366,"text":"這個是過去嘛 過去的人依照這個標準 如果以我的標準 我會辦不是啦 我們一樣一樣來啦不要在那邊挪來挪去的啦第一個 規範上他不應該辦特殊查核他只是 就是基本上要辦一般查核對不起 規範上他要不要辦特殊查核 奇怪我的問題有這麼難理解嗎我在問你特殊查核 你一直在跟我扯一般查核"},{"start":8115.509,"end":8133.53,"text":"我的問題有這麼難理解嗎對不起我再說一次規範上他要不要做特殊查核規範上如果按照既有的規定是不必那你為什麼上次說要我認為他接觸的業務是要所以現在怎麼辦那就是由政風去辦理按照規定來辦理"},{"start":8134.554,"end":8151.073,"text":"按照什麼規定來辦 你現在規範上就不用辦特殊查核啊如果以他接觸的事物啊 我認為是要對嘛 現在規範上就不用辦特殊查核啊我有說錯嗎這不是你們上次外交部的同仁的回答嗎"},{"start":8152.625,"end":8177.436,"text":"我是部長我如果去任命這樣的一個人我是認為他所接觸的業務是需要特殊查核但是依照當時的規定到現在還是這個規定是沒有需要特殊查核到現在還是這個規定我們現在就是要必須要改革改好了沒有現在行政院整體都在針對這樣還需要多久以及要任命的沒有關係啦這還需要多久"},{"start":8177.816,"end":8193.142,"text":"改好了沒有 還需要多久這行政院會有整體的行政院整體的規劃我們大家都很了解啦一個基本的事實研議了六年 七年 八年例子不生沒舉啦現在出了一個這麼大的洞那你現在說"},{"start":8194.625,"end":8221.994,"text":"追下大白了嘛規範上不需要辦特殊查核但身為部長你不贊成嘛你認為應該要辦特殊查核嗎事後來看啦行政院現在正在進行作業當中還要作業多久不知道行政院在辦理中所以行政院要進行多久你也不知道沒關係嘛繼續拖嘛這不是很重要的事嗎應該辦特殊查核的事情沒有辦特殊查核現在變共諜啦"},{"start":8224.102,"end":8233.255,"text":"行政院說要檢討這件事情發生到現在多久了檢討到今天還在檢討部長你對於行政院的效率滿意嗎"},{"start":8235.209,"end":8263.38,"text":"我當然尊重行政院他綜合因為他那麼多的部會他在辦理但對外交部我們的政風調查報告已經完成我認為如果實質的判定他接觸的業務是需要查核啦但是當時在最早任命的時候因為還不知道他會接觸什麼業務嘛所以那個時候跟在吳釗燮還旁邊還不知道他會接觸什麼業務在外交部部長辦公室裡面收機密文件還不知道他會接觸什麼業務"},{"start":8265.041,"end":8265.727,"text":"所以是規範有問題還是吳釗燮有問題"},{"start":8268.953,"end":8288.639,"text":"我想規範就是說是死的嘛可是這個人的任命因為他是用所謂一等之義那這樣的聘用是可以不用辦特殊查只要辦一般查規範上面這種人不用辦特殊查的現在結果來看嫌有不足是嘛所以我個人認為如果接住業務的職職你到現在都還在研議嘛你沒有說錯嗎我們政風已經調查完畢而且對於改進的應該要去做一些改進啦"},{"start":8298.322,"end":8324.043,"text":"沒有關係啦 我們拭目以待嘛這麼重要的事情 我們拭目以待嘛看卓榮泰要拖多久嘛來 第二題我去年有問你卡貝的事情喔蠻有趣的啦你們外交部的業務報告從過去比較常用的詞叫做價值外交到這一次 卓榮泰新的施政報告出現一個新的名詞叫總和外交"},{"start":8325.555,"end":8336.837,"text":"從價值外交啊 到總和外交啊總和外交有包括金錢外交嗎沒有沒有嘛 好那我的問題還是一樣我們會不會幫其他國家繳卡貝的股款"},{"start":8338.106,"end":8362.042,"text":"我們希望說我們已經在一些國際組織包括這些金融系統的角色上善用花錢繳我們自己的股款我作為民意代表我OK啊我支持啊花台灣納稅的錢繳台灣的股款我OK我現在的問題一模一樣花台灣納稅的錢去幫外國繳股款外交部同不同意"},{"start":8363.46,"end":8377.138,"text":"我想我們一定是按照規定來辦理那我們必須要去善用包括咖啡 包括亞銀 包括歐銀同意 沒錯我是認為要去好好的發揮我們在這裡面的角色所以我們要確保我們的影響力"},{"start":8380.243,"end":8401.323,"text":"所以要確保影響力的方式是幫其他外國繳股款嗎是嗎一定基於我們國家的利益在做整體的考慮跟佈局所以你還是沒有答案嗎我想有機會我會跟委員詳細說明在總和外交上這一些政策工序是很重要的總和外交不包括金錢外交但是包括幫其他國家繳股款是這樣嗎"},{"start":8404.04,"end":8423.149,"text":"總和外交不包括金錢外交但是包括幫其他國家繳股款是這樣嗎對 就是去發揮我們的影響力確保後果是有利於國家的意義我明確的跟部長講啦這件事情上面我們有價值立場的不同我表達我的立場你只要清楚表達外交部的立場就好了"},{"start":8423.922,"end":8450.868,"text":"我們的價值立場不同我支持民主我支持價值外交但是拿台灣人的錢去繳幫其他國家繳股款對不起啊我不懂這個是什麼外交我跟委員說明嘛比如說我們的總和外交有經濟外交我們過去是援助現在加強投資那怎麼樣善用我們在國際先停一下你要去外國投資是一回事啊去外國投資那東西還是我們的啦"},{"start":8451.82,"end":8473.171,"text":"你要拿台灣人的錢去做婦女的父權去照顧當地貧窮的小孩讓他們受教育從普世價值來講我都贊成但是你拿台灣人的錢去幫其他國家繳股款這是哪門子的外交啊這不是金錢外交什麼是金錢外交"},{"start":8474.231,"end":8492.102,"text":"這不是啦 這個我們在裡面有骨折我們可以善用來榮榮計畫你說這絕對不是金錢外交嘛但我就認為這就是金錢外交我做部長任內我不會用金錢外交因為我長期你對我也了解啦你不會做金錢外交但是你會拿台灣當罪人的錢去幫人家繳股款"},{"start":8492.882,"end":8517.17,"text":"任何的方式只要有助於我們國家的利益包括拿台灣的錢去幫人家繳股款不是 那個都是手段那個目的是為了要來捍衛我們外交上面那這個籠幫計畫跟以前只是在繳繳不繳是兩回事啦謝謝委員的指導我們會善用每一筆預算包括去幫國家其他"},{"start":8518.09,"end":8546.82,"text":"繳股款不管用什麼方法合法的然後我們用大大聲聲這樣講跟國際的合作作為立法委員我們需要讓人民知道錢到哪裡去了嘛我有說錯嗎所以我才具體的問你嘛是不是要拿去幫其他國家繳股款是就是嘛你確定了這個事實以後確定了這個事實要怎麼評價每一個人心裡都有一把尺啊是我同意委員講的目的啦一定要達到不然的話這會被人家批評"},{"start":8548.13,"end":8550.632,"text":"謝謝黃國昌委員實訊 接下來由楊瓊英委員上台質詢謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請部長"},{"start":8573.905,"end":8593.146,"text":"副長,我們來討論,川普4月份對大多數的美國貿易國家開徵了高額的關稅,剛開始他原則上台灣是設定32%的加注關稅,之後他又降到10%,為期90天,大家有這個時間來好好的討論。"},{"start":8596.329,"end":8617.219,"text":"那同時呢 在國內的產業 因為我們是出口導向所以大家都非常非常的關心 非常關心尤其呢 在中部地區 我們的產業我們的手工具機 工具機 機械類別 零組件這一些呢 都是我們的幫手 非常的重要因為出口導向 所以都很緊張"},{"start":8618.479,"end":8635.95,"text":"那在這樣的情況之下呢川普日前又說在未來的二到三週他會請他的財政部長跟商務部長會發函給各國也告訴大家到底內容是什麼所以本席首先要請教這個二到三週要發函的也包括我們台灣嗎我們會收到信嗎請做說明"},{"start":8639.315,"end":8651.968,"text":"我們現在台灣跟美國在有關關稅談判是順利進行當中那我們也就是說至於說川普會不會去宣布哪個國家這不是我們能夠掌握的啦不過就是我們跟他的談判在第一批而且現在順利進行中是不是"},{"start":8656.152,"end":8658.273,"text":"這個指的是說沒有跟他啟動談判他要宣布薪水利還是包括已經在談判中因為理論上在談判中就是所以現在沒有辦法確認我們在這二三週會不會收到信嗎是這麼解讀嗎因為這是川普的決策我們無法代言我們繼續來討論"},{"start":8675.858,"end":8686.404,"text":"我們要掌握這個脈動因為就是總統先生日前也受訪問的時候他有說談判的目的就是要避免大於10%的高關稅這個情況那我方呢"},{"start":8690.666,"end":8705.316,"text":"我們要怎麼樣爭取對我們台灣最有利對我們國家最有利的所以請教部長我們的關稅會不會高過10%還有我們都非常好台美都非常好的這個情況之下我們台灣會有豁免的產品嗎你目前有這個方向跟訊息嗎"},{"start":8712.12,"end":8715.762,"text":"因為賴總統他有在國際媒體上發表一個就是說就是強化台美經貿路徑圖然後現在我們跟美方的談判也就相關的項目在已經都有這個一個清單在有方案所以"},{"start":8730.527,"end":8751.714,"text":"這個稅 我們當然像對等關稅是越低越好至少不能高於我們對我們其中的國家因為你是外交部長 都參與其中 而且等於是在第一線所以再一次請教 總統先生這麼說了會不會我們會低於還是高於這10% 這是第一個議題第二個也就是我們的豁免產品 據你所悉到目前為止我們有嗎"},{"start":8753.675,"end":8776.75,"text":"我們希望說在半導體還有這些跟資通訊有關的能夠豁免因為這個我們供應鏈跟美國是半導體跟資通訊對 跟互補嘛因為我們這些產品跟它說實在是供應鏈的關係其實如果高關稅是兩敗俱傷甚至甚至它傷得更重我們當然是去說明那事實上他們也慢慢的了解我們像這個供應鏈互補的關係"},{"start":8778.931,"end":8786.136,"text":"可是基於談判的策略最後的結果會如何現在是對等關稅在先跟電子業相關的這一些這個本來就沒有關稅的問題的時候現在再加上去但是這個是屬於232條款那現在先談的是對等關稅"},{"start":8801.505,"end":8829.436,"text":"可是因為對冷關稅是把所有的貿易利差都算進來那我們希望把那個也把它扣除掉其實台美的貿易利差就不大了好 這是我們非常的這個希望那麼也希望台灣的豁免產品成本你剛才所報告的那接下來請教南非打壓我國的住處處理的進度目前到底是如何因為在二月份要求我們簽署首都三月份的時候又更名那現在最近又要改為"},{"start":8830.776,"end":8853.071,"text":"這個約翰你是到目前為止我們我方我們交涉的進度到底是如何我們的解方究竟是什麼請做說明是南非想要要求我們簽管或者是說要幫我們變更這些地位是從去年就開始我們也做很早的因應那到目前為止聽到您說這個是小動作但是這個小動作我們要怎麼去因應呢"},{"start":8857.677,"end":8881.833,"text":"我們有做好這個就是對策嘛就是說如果實質上因為這個是他片面行為我們不予承認因為根據台灣跟南非的這個1997年雙邊簽訂的協議啊他不能夠片面這樣子做我們法律藝術中我們也研究過實質的整個怎麼樣去反制啊我們也有方案那他現在基於什麼政治的考量"},{"start":8882.333,"end":8901.863,"text":"片面做這個行為我們在交涉中而且表達嚴正的抗議那因為這個東西也引發了他們國內外的反彈除了美國以外政府跟國會包括他們自己的聯合政府裡面的政黨還有在野黨以及社會大眾包括輿論所以這個壓力其實也是回到他那邊去所以我們希望說還有緩衝的空間但一旦他真正實質傷害到我們比如說強迫要我們監管"},{"start":8909.186,"end":8925.041,"text":"或者是做了一些這是違反協議的事情的時候那我們也會有反制這些方案也都準備好部長您剛才談到的我們會有反制喔那麼我們也希望能夠確保它是我們不會遷出的"},{"start":8925.621,"end":8943.472,"text":"這是我們努力的方向所以您剛才講了兩個重點第一個是片面的行為我們不予承認第二個我們的因應一定要小心應對方案也就是我們不能欠租你可以確保嗎對這是我們的目標也是目前的現況"},{"start":8944.451,"end":8961.377,"text":"你是目前的現況,所以你一定要確保,是不是?是好,接下來本席要請教,因為09年招聚WHA但是我們台灣的醫療是非常非常的在國際間對國際也很幫助我們台灣也真的是太棒了"},{"start":8961.957,"end":8987.2,"text":"所以在這樣的一個情況之下WHA即將在5月19號到27號在瑞士日聯網要展開所以本席當然也主張我們台灣的醫療實力是享譽國際我們不該被排除所以我們外交部要怎麼樣的方案有效的來推動在我們這個方向能夠加入WHA 請做說明"},{"start":8987.6,"end":9012.791,"text":"是 那我因為在這一次衛福部長率隊出去日瑞瓦參加WHA的大會之前我們有開雙部長的記者會那我們一方面當然就是由我國家聯名或進洽到邦交國跟非邦交國這些情形都是越來越多支持我們的力量另外可能到大會之後我們要申請加入會有辯論"},{"start":9014.331,"end":9037.366,"text":"目前我想還是按照往例進行按照往例進行所以部長因為我們台灣的醫療實力確確實實是國際間也非常的重視也是我們最佳的一個優點也是我們最佳的一個戰慾國際的實力我們務必一定要加強而且去落實我跟委員說明一下這次有個特色就是強調智慧醫療"},{"start":9039.767,"end":9055.76,"text":"我們包括像宏碁 智一還有廣達電腦我們現在包括在APEC裡面提的那個所謂數位跟AI在醫療上去解決這些所謂的落差這就是我們剛才討論的對 也就是我們的醫療實力數位科技的應用非常的讚我們也在這裏面展示也因為WHA這樣子我們看到美國即將要推出WHO"},{"start":9066.809,"end":9082.262,"text":"那在這樣的一個情況之下台灣台灣是否會失去一個很重要的發聲的一個重要力量那在這樣的情況之下我們外交部你的因應措施呢如果陳真你的因應措施呢"},{"start":9083.07,"end":9110.164,"text":"這涉及到就是所謂川普總統他們在美國退出這個WHO之後是不是有另外成立類似的組織如果有我們會去參加嘛但是我們還是爭取參加WHO這個我們認為這個問題關鍵當然是因為政治上所以最近包括美國還有歐盟還有很多像日本的國家都在所謂聯合國2758號決議上採取很明確的立場支持台灣而且認為這跟台灣參加包括世界衛生組織這個是"},{"start":9112.205,"end":9141.168,"text":"沒有排除台灣參加所以我們台灣的醫療實力是戰慾國際我們現在台日 台美 台歐盟我們必須要加緊這個腳步因為這個是我們非常重要的一個發展的根基參與是我們的權利並沒有被任何決議排除那現在就是說我們沒參加也是世界的損失但是沒參加世界損失我們還可以用其他的方法來貢獻世界所以應對的方案一定要備案"},{"start":9141.768,"end":9163.439,"text":"當然我們不希望他是陳真但是應對的方案我們務必要備案我們爭取參加世界衛生組織但是我們並不以不能參加就不能夠參與或貢獻國民所以剛剛北京所說的台日台美台歐盟我們都必須要務實的去落實嗎好謝謝謝謝楊瓊英的上台質詢接下來我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":9474.562,"end":9498.522,"text":"現在開始開會接下來由王帝宜委員曾任賢委員上台執行曾任賢委員上台執行曾任賢委員曾任賢委員不在蔡易宜委員上台執行蔡易宜委員蔡易宜委員蔡易宜委員不在請王帝宜委員上台執行"},{"start":9505.64,"end":9529.805,"text":"好 謝謝主席 麻煩部長我們都希望我們在外交的工作上一方面不用看輕自己也不用疑神疑鬼當然也不能粉飾太平 不能憂慘畏饑所以本席今天我們"},{"start":9531.101,"end":9550.596,"text":"像請外交部我們一起來討論一個問題就是說在中國跟拉美的共同體論壇我們兩個邦交國一個聖路西亞一個海地他們的官方人員有出席我有看到你們的回應說他們的政府說那是代表政黨"},{"start":9552.967,"end":9565.957,"text":"我不曉得外交部怎麼看待這兩個國家出席中國拉美論壇你們怎麼定義它是一個警訊呢還是一個什麼樣的指標你們怎麼定義它"},{"start":9567.655,"end":9588.712,"text":"跟委員報告 因為這次中拉的論壇是已經辦理過所以這一次我們都有在預防 那也跟很多友邦溝通至於說海地跟深入下都有特殊的狀況 那也都有跟我們說明所以我們當然還是希望說他們能夠不出息"},{"start":9589.612,"end":9611.449,"text":"出席他們也保證不會涉及跟台灣邦交的傷害當然他們回來之後也跟我們再進一步有報告我還是問一下我們國家外交部對這個看法是認為OK一切在可控範圍內所以還好不用擔心還是把它視為一個警訊"},{"start":9613.05,"end":9635.502,"text":"這些都是我們必須注意的警訊但是我們也在可控的範圍內事前事後都做妥善的因應這個CELAC這個拉美跟加勒比海國家聯盟然後中國透過跟這個聯盟的33個國家組了一個叫做中國與拉美的論壇那這一個"},{"start":9638.203,"end":9664.459,"text":"論壇呢在目前為止大概部長級會議辦了四屆嘛對不對是第一屆是2015第二屆是2018第三屆後來因為COVID延後了到20212018到2021之間還有視訊的部長級會議再來就是這一次的2025年5月13號這一次的部長級會議我請問部長前面三次聖露西亞跟海地他們有沒有官員與會"},{"start":9667.617,"end":9686.394,"text":"前面三次有沒有沒有好跟以前他自己比沒有這一次2025年的5月13號我們在那個區域的四個邦交國瓜地馬拉貝里斯海地還有聖露西亞另外那兩國有沒有派員參加沒有那為什麼就這兩國"},{"start":9687.742,"end":9702.728,"text":"海地的情形當然他們的說明是從2月開始其實我們就交涉了因為就已經知道要在北京辦我們也有去溝通希望他能夠不派代表"},{"start":9703.528,"end":9719.782,"text":"不過基於海地它現在因為是臨時政府有一些未來的維和工作也需要聯合國包括中國你們認為聖露西亞跟海地派去的人員是官方代表還是非官方代表"},{"start":9720.731,"end":9744.806,"text":"以海地來講他是這個外交部長所以他這一定的程度是有代表性不過他們的說明是他們是以拉共體作為整體這個決定沒有啊以拉共體來講他前三次沒去啊對以拉共體來講貝里斯沒去啊瓜地馬拉沒去啊如果你們認為是去沒關係我可控那下一次瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯為什麼不去"},{"start":9745.97,"end":9774.281,"text":"因為海地的情形現在在國際的因為他現在臨時政府也不能做出決定所以我們有很多當然有因應的方案在避免意外發生所以這個是我要提醒外交部就是說那個區域是我們非常重要的坦白講叫外交戰場也是美國從Rubio這些佛羅里達邦進入國務院之後很重視的區域"},{"start":9775.629,"end":9796.807,"text":"每一件事情都有它的意義如果我們認為這個區有跟我們講過了然後這兩個國家說他們是代表民間那就沒關係了我給你保證很快就有第五屆部長級會議很快那個區域我們的邦交國同時參加否則不公平啊你對那兩國覺得沒關係啊所以我們怎麼因應怎麼處理你事前勸導了應該有啦"},{"start":9799.065,"end":9817.679,"text":"事前應該有勸辭啦那他還是不聽執意要去外交部長去代表國家欸另外一個講什麼政黨啦這個民間人士他根本就是聖露西亞的無任所大使是聖露西亞聘任的無任所大使外交人員然後這一個所謂的"},{"start":9822.591,"end":9843.91,"text":"中國與拉美論壇的部長級會議是中國2014年開始跟所謂的拉美加勒比海這些國家這個聯盟所組成的一個叫做建制化的合作關係他論壇之後還有後續追蹤事項以及後續合作事項美國對這個事情有沒有看法"},{"start":9849.758,"end":9878.118,"text":"因為海地他現在的情形就是臨時政府所以不能夠對外交做出什麼決定那我們當然二月七之後也跟他不斷的溝通那在他的這個保證事後來看也沒有就是說跟他先前跟我們表達的我可不可以建議Pending一些跟他們談妥的合作事項我覺得外交我們會通盤來做考量我在國會部門我可以建議當然我不建議部長直接隨著我話講"},{"start":9879.619,"end":9887.315,"text":"本席建議對聖露西亞或海地我們有一些合作的援助的方案Pending他"},{"start":9888.619,"end":9917.541,"text":"我跟你們報告 包括最近我們以三省來講包括美國 包括他們的總理到華府那當然這個是多邊的關係的運用我們必須加強跟這些國家的關係不一定是用檢法啦那怎麼樣借助美國 也關注拉美特別是盧比奧國務卿從美國通過台北法案以後美國在跟台灣 在我們現有的"},{"start":9918.402,"end":9944.586,"text":"不管是邦交關係或者非邦交關係他會用他們的外交工具來跟台灣一起合作這個我們知道也一段時間了有時候好一點有時候少一點那個部分我們都知道我現在意思是說在這個區域有四個國家現在有兩個國家呢也可以講說無視於跟我們的默契或無視於台灣美國跟這個區域我們有相關的默契他去了"},{"start":9946.024,"end":9958.519,"text":"如果他去了你還可以給他加罰的話等於是鼓勵壞同學懲罰好同學所以我們國會可以當黑臉"},{"start":9959.859,"end":9989.048,"text":"對於這樣的國家我剛剛委員會的意思我並不是說加法我是說是不是要去針對某一些項目怎麼樣減法我們還要再通盤的來研議你們從去年因為今年一二月就開始類似專案在處理這個事情在monitor這個情形了海地的部分持續很密切的關注你們關注到它真的五月份發生了那應該也有預判發生之後我應該採取什麼樣的因應處理嗎你們現在有沒有方案有"},{"start":9990.253,"end":10012.929,"text":"我私底下如果因為有涉及到有一些機密我們跟海地關係的加強不用全部都在這邊公開揭露但是你們應該已經預先想好scenario one我應該採取什麼方案第二種狀況我要什麼方案應該要有那我們對拉美跟加勒比海區域有沒有其他的外交突破點或新的亮點"},{"start":10015.769,"end":10042.631,"text":"當然我們都有在推動中因為是讓美國對西半球的重視包括我們在這些國家有一些外交的成果也有一定的示範效果我講具體一點啦比如某個國家蝦農 嘿嘿嘿40%失業被中國騙了一天到晚都說希望跟台灣來談 OK"},{"start":10044.867,"end":10056.941,"text":"當然你重力旺益台灣也不是潘娜但是有很多外交機會出現的時候我們該怎麼樣建構對我們國家利益最有幫助的舞台或者局面"},{"start":10058.304,"end":10082.095,"text":"我真的希望我們國外交委員會兩位召委可以排專門就那個區域的局勢可以談一談當美國跟薩爾瓦多談把他們一些犯人移到那裡Rubio跑到那裡去了當拉美加勒比海有一些外交的三角形的變化的時候台灣在那裡有沒有能夠更進一步的這個我是建議部長可以處理那另外呢因為今天時間關係"},{"start":10084.195,"end":10103.113,"text":"我們現在這個你可以日經亞洲報導說外國駐台的人員創新高那就外交部目前統計起來有哪些國家新派外交人員新派我想美日英等國確實都增加"},{"start":10106.189,"end":10117.763,"text":"派出的人員嘛那增派的外交人員的項目是哪?比方說是經貿類的或者國安類的或者軍事類的他增加的外交人員有沒有哪個範圍比較大?"},{"start":10119.814,"end":10145.876,"text":"應該都有 當然對於因為台灣現在跟國際的交流有很多實質上包括中共對台的這一些混合戰 灰色地帶的侵擾還有各種的假訊息 資安這都是新興的項目另外當然經貿我們包括在科技尤其是跟半導體相關的產業就我目前能夠看到的資料"},{"start":10146.576,"end":10169.344,"text":"不管是英國、日本、澳洲跟德國他們增加在台灣的駐台灣的外交人員多數都跟區域安全或戰略事務有關嘛這是一部分應該多數是我第一個請外交部整理一份你用機密的我沒有意見整理一份駐台的外交人員"},{"start":10170.615,"end":10186.646,"text":"各國各地區他增加的人員是增加哪一類的多少人員新增了當然代表台灣越來越重要各國派更多的駐地人員來到台灣這當然是好事但我們也要了解他派了哪個類別如果派的都是經濟事務的那讓在經濟事務上"},{"start":10187.907,"end":10214.333,"text":"他可能有一些想法要跟我們談派的都是戰略安全事務上的可能在這方面有些事務要談那我們的對口單位應該要整合國內相關部會跟來進行對話這個資料可不可以整理一份給本席好其他部分我就不佔太多時間了我請特別注意聖露西亞跟海地的事情可能怎麼處理會影響後續我希望如果在公開不便的話私下能夠提供相關資訊給我們好 謝謝部長"},{"start":10217.455,"end":10217.876,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長"},{"start":10241.685,"end":10265.854,"text":"部長好部長今天有很多委員都很關心林昶佐到底有沒有辦法勝任芬蘭大使之士其實我們所知道的林昶佐當然是從政之前的閃靈樂團再來他從政之後因為我曾經跟他當過同事也曾經觀察過他其實我覺得他對於人權方面他一直都是非常的關心"},{"start":10266.494,"end":10283.05,"text":"那當然他兩屆都在外交國防委員會我們也知道說他對這個國際事務的這個關心好那除了談到林昶佐之外當然就是談到這個芬蘭喔芬蘭這個國家過去我曾經造訪過也是非常重視人權的一個國家"},{"start":10283.59,"end":10294.863,"text":"那他的這個社會福利政策呢也是非常的完善那大家可能比較不太清楚就是說像這個芬蘭除了這些之外呢其實他的這個重金屬樂團的這個團數是全球"},{"start":10299.828,"end":10325.683,"text":"居守的我曾經看過報導就是說在10萬人裡面其實他們會有70個重金屬的樂團所以不管是說芬蘭目前它所重視的議題其實跟林昶佐其實是非常的match那再來還有就是說我覺得林昶佐用他的音樂專長去做這個外交工作他跟芬蘭其實有共同的語言"},{"start":10326.664,"end":10338.554,"text":"有何不可?本身是認為有何不可?Why not?這是我自己的一個想法啦那當然部長剛剛也提了很多那當然我在媒體上也看到就是說部長其實你有在說為什麼會說希望是林昶佐出任芬蘭大使之事這大概都有跟這個國人說得非常的清楚"},{"start":10348.502,"end":10363.85,"text":"那再來的話呢 當然就是今天很重要的這個議題就是我們預算案的這個解凍那其實每一項的這個解凍都是非常的重要都是關係到這個外交的這個推動那其中呢 被凍結了50%的這個業務費"},{"start":10368.252,"end":10386.207,"text":"我想大家會很擔心就是說今天有沒有辦法順利來做解凍所以本席想請部長在這裡很明確的告知國人就是說如果這個醫護費今天沒有辦法順利解凍的話我們到底會面臨哪一些困境尤其對這個外交工作請問部長是"},{"start":10388.488,"end":10412.463,"text":"報告委員 因為凍結業務會一半我們想說至少半年 下半年 可是因為他必須要執行就是30%以上才能夠來申請結論現在這個時間是5月中 當然是已經很急迫因為有些事情是需要規劃"},{"start":10413.824,"end":10430.526,"text":"包括一些可能我們外館的業務設施那處於不確定性高的時候是沒有辦法去推展所以我們是懇求這個大院還有委員會能夠盡快的能夠讓通過好能夠啟動一些準備工作是"},{"start":10431.887,"end":10458.24,"text":"業務當然也包括駐外館很多的這些舉辦的活動以外一些僱員因為外館其實也借助很多當地的人來幫助我們那這些都是會是影響那其他一般性我們國人出國涉及到的一些不管是急難救助或是相關的這些國際交流邀訪也都會受到影響"},{"start":10458.92,"end":10483.745,"text":"是像目前我們所看到的就是說像部長所提的可能我們駐外管的這個業務的運作呢可能會受到很大的這個影響嘛那再來還有一點就是要提到就是WTOWTO的話是我們唯一一個加入這個經貿組織唯一的一個組織嘛那我們所了解就是說像年初的時候我們必須要繳交一個326萬的美金的這個匯費這部分已經繳交了是不是"},{"start":10488.386,"end":10507.1,"text":"是 因為他有stay line 我們就用另外先墊支啦所以用墊支的方式來處理那可是WTO不單單只是繳會費而已啊這部分能不能如果說今天這個沒有辦法順利解凍這個WTO後續的推動會哪一部分的影響嗎"},{"start":10508.117,"end":10520.733,"text":"因為我們為了繳非會就排擠了其他的比如交流活動或者是有一些參與會議的預算只是為了繳非那其他的活動就所以這部分的話我們是從其他的地方做顛覆所以已經我們只能夠從這一個項目"},{"start":10522.625,"end":10526.607,"text":"所以為了繳費當然會其他放在這個科目裡面的那我們應該還會有一些部長會議等等之類的這個會影響都會影響都沒有辦法去參與了嗎它有排擠效果會有排擠效果所以這邊的話所以部長還要懇求朝野都一起來支持我們這個業務費的通過不然的話會受到很大的影響那再來我們也要繳的費我們當然希望我們業務也能夠推動是"},{"start":10548.058,"end":10563.183,"text":"那再來還有我們現在也要積極的就是推動加入這個CPTPP如果說這個業務費沒有解凍的話是不是這個也是受到很大的影響對 這在同一個項目下當然會互相會有這個使用上對於我們國際組織的這個參與呢其實是會受阻的嘛"},{"start":10566.264,"end":10593.461,"text":"那之前我有曾經呢聽一位我們的外交官說我們都曉得說美國服務員非常的遼闊有時候真的是要飛到另外一地另外一地是進行這個外交工作的時候其實或是要開會其實有時候要坐國內的飛機可是我有聽過外交官就有提到就是說為了省省這個交通費所以他們有時候一大早就開車自己開車然後呢去開會部長你知道這件事情嗎"},{"start":10594.417,"end":10614.979,"text":"有,都有聽聞,那其實像我跟委員報告,我們外交部的預算,只佔我們現在中央政府總預算不到百分之一,而且逐年遞減,這是一個,我是覺得我們必須,因為現在外交隨著,除了我們很多國家要跟我們交往以外,中國在國際上的影響力越來越大,"},{"start":10615.76,"end":10640.421,"text":"所以其實如果是我們跟中國在國際上的角力其實我們是壓力越來越大當然我們去尋求總和外交包括理念相近國家的支持不過我也是要懇求就除了今年的預算能夠及早的解凍以外其實我們也可能要重新去思考我們向外交扮演一個什麼樣的角色那需要多少預算不然的話以目前來講是確實捉襟見肘"},{"start":10642.443,"end":10663.331,"text":"那我們外交的人員都很專業都經過特考還有這些怎麼讓他們充分的發揮這個我想也利用這個機會我們也會針對新年度的預算就能夠反映我們現在的政策目標這也敬請這個委員的支持"},{"start":10664.151,"end":10689.805,"text":"對啦 我一直在想說這些預算都是我們推動這個國會外交對要發生其實很重要的一些經費喔所以我在想說待會兒可能我們就需要來處理這個預算的部分啦所以也就 欸 我們只好點頭所以呢 也希望就是朝野一起來支持因為最近也常常聽到一些外交工作受阻然後 說實在外交人員真的是非常的這個辛苦啦所以希望大家來支持好 以上謝謝"},{"start":10693.058,"end":10693.838,"text":"謝謝主席,有請外交部林佳榮部長"},{"start":10722.68,"end":10729.828,"text":"最近外交部問題其實也蠻多的,等一下依照我有很多問題要問,我想請部長等一下簡短的重點的回答部長,相信今天其實所有的委員都非常的在意就是有關前立委林昶佐將接任芬蘭代表的這個事情"},{"start":10741.681,"end":10745.664,"text":"當然執政黨都是非常稱讚林昶佐說他過去長期待在外交國防委員會所以熟悉我國的國防的政策但外界仍然是有一些質疑在林昶佐過去他有用一個焦慮症的理由沒有服兵役但是這個已經引發了一些爭議然後其實在醫學上焦慮跟憂鬱其實是兩種不同的類型的情緒上面的困擾"},{"start":10768.641,"end":10787.828,"text":"但是這個常常會一起發生然後芬蘭有高居不下的自殺率在1990年的時候芬蘭是全球自殺率最高的國家而且北歐這些國家都是日照很短的國家其實這種病症是很容易發作的所以我在想說他真的適合去擔任芬蘭的代表嗎還是因為他是有綠色黨證的特定人士"},{"start":10795.071,"end":10799.153,"text":"然後讓你們突然忽略他的健康的問題這樣會不會造成他的問題很慷慮啊其實這一點是我們非常擔心的因為你們千萬不要害他其實北歐這些國家根本在於他這種焦慮症憂鬱症的人是不太適合去那個地方的那我想如果是說外交部已經選任林昶佐要出任芬蘭大使的這個消息已經屬實了那你覺得"},{"start":10821.304,"end":10850.084,"text":"還有一點就是外交人員可以接受嗎可以信任和甘心的服從嗎那請部長林長佐委員他的背景還有專業是屬於深任那至於說他的兵役或者他的病史我想我們就不待為回答這個問題他應該有對社會會做說明那我們是從整體的佈局在北歐這個整個區域我們要發揮最大的總和外交的效應的話"},{"start":10851.045,"end":10877.338,"text":"如果一個對於人權關心然後有音樂的專長然後能夠做文化外交我想對整個區域跟台灣的關係的提升我們是有所期待當然現在這個人事案是在作業中還沒有他需要由總統基於他的任命那總統府來公告那是因為委員關心那我想我自己也來自於民意代表"},{"start":10877.958,"end":10884.982,"text":"我也知道在我的範圍內盡量跟大家說明至於說他個人的身體的情形這我比較不方便來代言"},{"start":10887.13,"end":10906.281,"text":"因為我知道我只是一個建議因為北歐國家真的不太適合有這種病症的人去當然人要健康的情況下才有辦法做好任何事情所以我在想說我還是提醒部長外交工作真的是推動非常的不容易一定要多方面的評估啊而且也還要為財適用才行"},{"start":10910.578,"end":10915.239,"text":"接下來我再想請問一下WHA世界衛生大會的議題今天請問到今天WHA會議都已經開始了我們這次應該沒有收到邀請函是不是對沒有那部長那你覺得自從民進黨執政到現在已經八年了然後連WHA的觀察員這個身份都失去了但我們台灣的醫療在全世界其實都是前段班的新冠疫情的時候其實全球的防疫也是做得非常的好但是"},{"start":10940.667,"end":10948.917,"text":"遲遲都沒有辦法叩關成功這樣是否表示我們的外交工作還是要有很大的努力空間那想請教部長一下就是WHA這是我們第九年嘛沒有收到這個邀請函但是我們總不可能一直都把這個責任推給中國的問題嘛否則我們台灣醫療再怎麼樣進步我們都沒有辦法"},{"start":10962.251,"end":10967.734,"text":"進去世界衛生組織裡面所以有些訊息我們就沒有辦法跟世界接軌那我想要拜託部長你是不是要好好勸勸賴總統他自己也是醫生醫者人心千萬不要為了一己之心讓政治影響到全台灣人民的健康所以部長那你贊成本席的看法嗎還有說外交部有什麼想法想要爭取世界衛生組織還有你們未來你們是要怎麼樣突破這一個困境呢"},{"start":10990.182,"end":11019.742,"text":"我們爭取參加世界衛生組織是基於基本人權普世價值以外其實也是對世界的貢獻所以我們沒有參加也是世界的損失但是我們基於對國人我們希望健康的促進或保障我們很多的方法在周邊的一些技術性的會議也是有一定的參與因為現在的情形是大家都了解"},{"start":11020.302,"end":11046.7,"text":"涉及到中國他的這個壓力尤其是他用這個所謂的聯合國2758號決議那麼在這個問題上越多越來的國家表態是說明其實所謂2758號決議並沒有辦法排除台灣參加世界衛生組織這個在外交戰場是很重要甚至支持台灣的立場越來越多那至於說其他的方式我們怎麼去呈現這一個"},{"start":11048.861,"end":11071.515,"text":"台灣沒有參加世界衛生組織是一個違反WHO的宗旨我們有很多的活動以外這一次比如透過智慧醫療數位的科技的解決方案包括AI這也是我們在APEC裡面其實都透過數位醫療在推展的那在WHO我們這次有包括像宏基智一廣達電腦他們"},{"start":11074.697,"end":11088.967,"text":"我知道你們都有努力 但是已經那麼多年來了我們總是要突破這個困境嘛那沒關係 因為還有很多問題要問就是說現在我還是希望外交部還是要很努力啦我們還是希望能看到一個好的成果主席再給我兩分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":11091.269,"end":11106.662,"text":"然後接下來我想要繼續追蹤一下就是我們南非代表處的被迫遷離的問題今年3月的時候然後南非外交部也幫官網上面的台北聯絡代表處改成台北商務辦事處其實這個看到這個是真的是非常的難過啦"},{"start":11107.423,"end":11122.492,"text":"因為台北雖然大部分是我國駐外代表處的名稱但是這是我們台灣為了加入國際組織不得已的妥協的方案但是如今我們現在連一個地方政府都不是了而是國際組織所以南非外交部擅自更改我們的駐處的名稱"},{"start":11123.953,"end":11141.459,"text":"弟子刪除我國的駐外代表知道我們不願意遷離嘛就只好用這一個名義來達到目的其實這樣的行為已經是不是不禮貌了而是不尊重了而且讓我們感受到非常的受欺負那部長我們中華民國是國際組織嗎還有就連廖文哲大使的介紹都被刪除了這個是有損國格的事情那你們外交部竟然可以忍還可以吞下這個羞辱嗎所以我想說"},{"start":11151.963,"end":11154.887,"text":"經過最近的外交部的評估我在覺得南非政府會不會是真的真心要強制驅離我們呢還是只是要用一個表態配合中國的演出然後演給中共看一下大內宣看的這樣的情況而已呢那你部長你覺得有什麼可以向我們說明的嗎有"},{"start":11172.932,"end":11192.684,"text":"我們在南非社台灣的代表處這是基於我們兩國的協議啊任何的變更都需要經過諮商談判的過程所以我們除了抗議然後持續交涉我們也據理力爭至於在這個過程當中他片面的行為我們這個"},{"start":11195.246,"end":11216.661,"text":"如果他要強迫我們搬離的時候 這個已經有這樣的行動我們會有反制 這個反制包括從各個方面他應該也都理解 可是為什麼他還是做了這一些動作包括擅自改名 然後把一些資訊拿掉 矮化我們"},{"start":11219.827,"end":11241.461,"text":"我想全世界都了解這是中國的壓力其實我覺得這種情況是越來越慘的可是這個是兩面的刃你看他這樣做之後除了美國的政府、國會之外像南非現在要爭取美國在ACOIA就是非洲成長機會法案他可能就會有困難"},{"start":11242.701,"end":11265.809,"text":"那麼另外就是說他國內也很多的不同聲音因為他的外交並沒有尊重執政聯盟所以執政聯盟你的政黨裡面公開的國會議員也表示反對的意見甚至有一些在野黨也拜訪台灣所以這些媒體大家都知道南非這樣做是站不住腳可是為什麼他還這樣做那我們就知道說背後有一些原因那為什麼只對到目前這個情況"},{"start":11267.329,"end":11292.063,"text":"後來會不會再更重的這些行動我們當然都必須要密切觀察跟妥善因應因為今年是南非舉辦G20它跟中國之間的關係是非常密切那中國對它的影響力當然很大不過我們也並不是沒有辦法反制只是我們不希望兩敗俱傷的方式所以我們當然在現在這個情形我們還在管控中"},{"start":11294.484,"end":11299.248,"text":"一旦超過了一個範圍我們準備好的方案也會予以反制"},{"start":11300.311,"end":11306.716,"text":"我還是要提醒一下就是我國駐南非使館的事情其實剛才部長也說應該是跟中國都有關係但是台灣對於這種層出不窮的這種外交事件我覺得我們真的我國應該對外關係有些難題一定有一些解方然後因為不能把這種外交工作表現不利全部都甩鍋給中國尤其是斷交部長吳釗燮"},{"start":11325.149,"end":11328.912,"text":"他自己養了共諜讓台灣失去那麼多邦交國到現在都在國安會都不敢來備詢面對責任我覺得這是不太負責任的態度但是我相信林部長你現在由你擔任外交部長我覺得肯定你是一個非常願意承擔責任的一個好部長所以我想中國打壓台灣這已經不是新聞了所以政府一定要對這個要面對要看要怎麼樣努力解決溝通那我們"},{"start":11352.81,"end":11378.457,"text":"來這樣把這個問題好好的解決那部長你說對嗎對因為中共在國際影響力越來越大那但是我們這賴總統上任來到現在一年我們還是固守我們12個邦交國而且我們是固邦以外我們現在透過龍邦希望能夠擴展我們國際空間所以為什麼要做總和外交需要立法院的支持包括我們在經濟外交龍邦計畫上這個是台灣有很多人家想要跟我們合作的"},{"start":11379.017,"end":11400.503,"text":"我們過去外交部歸外交部可能其他部歸其他部所以我們現在召開雙部長會議行政院有經濟外交工作小組我們就是整合我們跨部會的資源甚至民間的企業界比如說我們過去強調援助可是現在強調投資投資甚至也跟美國日本到第三國所以我們的新的外交的策略我們也會向國人報告我們在這個"},{"start":11403.104,"end":11416.316,"text":"等川普這個關稅這個政策比較明朗化之後那我今天也有在媒體啊也有總結就是說川普政府相對過去拜登政府我們賴總統從去年520這前後這個"},{"start":11421.32,"end":11437.461,"text":"對應是美國的兩任的政府所以我們在政策上現在已經慢慢的可以比較能夠去就是對應啦那怎麼樣能夠發揮台美合作在我們邦交國比如說Rubio國務卿他到了這個中美洲他跟瓜地馬拉的總統"},{"start":11438.743,"end":11464.924,"text":"在開記者會就有提到很肯定他跟台灣維持關係那也希望促進投資那我們現在跟美國我們有EPPD經濟繁榮夥伴的對話也有所謂的機會夥伴的投資考察團這些都是我們現在用新的方式希望結合理念相近跟利益比較一致的去"},{"start":11466.105,"end":11485.18,"text":"從故邦、榮邦甚至到拓邦有一些國家事實上對我們發展模式相對於中共的一帶一路那一種模式造成了很多債務危機事實上是很多問題是精英俘虜也就是說中國其實在很多國家其實他做兵符符合那些國家人民的意義而是少數的政治精英"},{"start":11486.081,"end":11493.087,"text":"跟他利益交換為什麼我們會那麼辛苦就是說中共進去之後我們就會很難了那我再請問一下就是自從民進黨蔡英文前總統上任到現在總共有十個國家已經跟我們斷交了而且身邊的共諜胡釗燮前部長六年內他斷交了八個國家然後最後跟我們斷交的是諾魯是去年一月份所以剛才部長有談到邦交國的問題"},{"start":11513.663,"end":11518.506,"text":"所以像我們現在這一次的梵蒂岡的前教宗方濟各的葬禮還有上週的新教宗的良食事事的就職那為什麼賴清德總統都沒有親自率團出席呢是不是不願意呢那如果這樣的話我們跟其他的國家還有之前的我們的總統的做法是不是會讓教廷誤認為說我們不重視他啊這樣是不是會有失禮儀啊這樣對我們未來的外交還有這些邦交國會不會有影響啊"},{"start":11543.539,"end":11549.781,"text":"我們當然跟范帝剛是都溝通那最後是用這樣的方式在現階段由陳副總統擔任總統特使去那因為他對教廷也熟之外其實可以跟高層很多的溝通那他也有表達"},{"start":11558.905,"end":11585.516,"text":"我們希望台泛關係可以回到更正常的軌道過去一些因素大家也了解在前教宗他任內有一些跟中國的包括他們的簽訂所謂主教任命臨時協議那個東西的影響我們現在怎麼樣能夠跟新教宗有新的可能性的空間那我們基於信任也就基於說我們從宗教進入對於包括這些天主教徒在台灣他們跟教廷的關係"},{"start":11587.637,"end":11608.767,"text":"所以我們有綜合的考量,我們不是沒有去推動,包括元首的部隊。反正我知道,因為部長,真的我們沒有辦法能讓一個邦交國再跟我們國家斷交了,所以我覺得外交部還是,我們大家一起做這個努力。好,我們全力以赴。謝謝林怡君委員的質詢,接下來有了王宏威委員上來質詢。"},{"start":11615.148,"end":11633.621,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請林部長部長好部長今天很多都聚焦在前立委林昶佐要出任芬蘭的大使其實在上一次有關於我們駐奧地利大使的時候我就提醒過部長"},{"start":11634.551,"end":11661.458,"text":"也就是說如果今天我們的駐外大使一而再再而三地用仇擁的方式事實上對於我們長期在外交第一線的我們的專業外交人員是士氣一大打擊我特別提醒過您但是我覺得非常非常的遺憾大家想想看喔台灣的外交處境這麼困難而且我們有些"},{"start":11662.518,"end":11684.639,"text":"的外交人員事實上他們其實都是在一些其實環境蠻惡劣的地方我們有很多的專業的駐外人員你不要說有些地震、海嘯的國家或者是甚至有瘧疾的甚至要經過政變你想想看當時我們的駐大阪的處長"},{"start":11686.139,"end":11710.78,"text":"優秀的外交官就因為假新聞最後親身讓我們喪失一個非常優秀的外交官所以外交官養成不易但是當有空缺的時候我們一而再再而三的都是用仇擁請問一下部長你怎麼對得起這些外交官我現在就來給你算一算從去年520開始"},{"start":11713.052,"end":11735.4,"text":"我們以這個林部長你擔任外交部長當然有一些很明顯是你派的有一些也許是來自於上面給你的名單在這些的名單裡面有多少是根本沒有任何駐外的經驗只是因為他是綠油油或者是龍油油我在這裡面是四個駐外的這些不管是公使"},{"start":11742.748,"end":11768.276,"text":"或者是大使裡面包含駐瑞士大使王思維他原來是保訓會的專門委員他有駐外經驗嗎沒有啊只是常常發表一些有關於國際情勢的文章駐美國公使楊一生他是民進黨的副秘書長真是根正綠紅啊非常的綠油油"},{"start":11772.481,"end":11788.345,"text":"駐越南代表劉世忠他的出身是新台灣國策智庫的執行長而且當過民進黨的黨工很多 很多職務駐越南代表來 吳建輝是駐WHO的副廠"},{"start":11791.038,"end":11820.021,"text":"副常任代表他是中研院的研究員他也沒有駐外經驗再來董思齊你很熟囉台灣智庫的執行長長期擔任台灣智庫執行長號稱為林佳龍子弟兵再來這是我上一次特別有提醒您的駐奧地利代表他或許是一個優秀的音樂家但是由音樂家駐奧地利"},{"start":11821.428,"end":11849.517,"text":"會不會很奇怪駐英國公使江雅琪教授出身也沒有任何的駐國外的經驗當然他也常常在一些親民進黨的平台上發表文章駐日本代表李毅陽是前內政部長現在由您口中證實的林長佐兼民進黨的立委"},{"start":11851.271,"end":11874.246,"text":"然後只是因為他有在我們立法院的國防外交委員會的經驗所以部長啊剛才我們講了很多我們的外交處境真的很困難這邊這麼多的外交同仁你那天怎麼跟我說的說如果大家有興趣的話都可以跟你講"},{"start":11875.993,"end":11880.815,"text":"是大家羞於啟齒還是不能講你這個名單一翻開來你對得起長期的駐外人員嗎你對得起長期的要培養的專業人員嗎為什麼一而再再而三的酬庸覺得外交不重要是不是而且酬庸的地點都非常好啊不是歐洲就是跟台灣比較接近啊回來台灣比較方便啊"},{"start":11906.357,"end":11912.524,"text":"但是最艱困的地區尤其是我們的一些邦交國這個就要尊重專業了合理嗎公平嗎外交這樣搞的嗎台灣外交不重要嗎"},{"start":11921.96,"end":11934.195,"text":"部長可不可以告訴我為什麼在你擔任部長期間我們的駐外代表可以完全不尊重這些專業完全沒有駐外經驗的讓他們去外行領導內行可以這樣嗎"},{"start":11939.67,"end":11962.276,"text":"我們都適材適所 也符合外交人員的任用條例那委員很關心的 譬如說我們的顏社會還有我們的領務局都是之前在這裡做 現在已經外派分別到愛爾蘭跟這個希臘所以總體來講 我們一定是適材適所為原則外交很辛苦 需要各方面"},{"start":11963.536,"end":11989.631,"text":"的一個支持 那我們一定會我剛才講了那麼多 為什麼這些專業的外交官他們都輪不上呢專業的外交官 比如剛剛以北歐來講現在有三個我們代表處一個是前駐美的副代表另外一位也是非常有經驗的那這個搭配怎麼樣好可以做區域聯防來推動總和外交我們是有總和的考量我剛才這樣講了下去 就講到一半了"},{"start":11990.211,"end":11994.933,"text":"比例會不會太高我只是要請部長能夠體諒我們第一屆專業人員的辛苦然後專業的外交人員真的非常重要不要一味的愁庸啊所以為什麼林昶佐是因為他名氣大所以社會輿論嘩然啊"},{"start":12012.322,"end":12031.855,"text":"可是這裡面有很多,也許他們有什麼名氣,大家不知道可是他的背景適合嗎?我剛剛講過啦,奧地利代表,音樂家就可以去派駐奧地利那台灣太多的音樂家啦,如果外交國防委員會就可以去當駐外大使那我們這邊一頭拉虎,都可以一個一個派啊,不合理啦"},{"start":12036.468,"end":12044.752,"text":"外界自由公平 而且我覺得最重要的不要打擊我們專業外交人員的士氣請部長牢記這句話謝謝 委員 這列的名稱裡面好幾個都是職業外交官謝謝我剛才講的都不是職業外交官這個圖片裡面就有對 沒有錯 七個14個人裡面七個 我剛剛講 一半所以一半你覺得很高囉 不合理吧"},{"start":12065.38,"end":12076.471,"text":"謝謝王宏威的指請接下來由葉延之委員上台指請葉延之委員葉延之委員葉延之委員不在"},{"start":12078.547,"end":12093.889,"text":"那已經登記執行委員的除不在場外經已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議由陳永康委員提出素面執行請列入登記並刊登公報"},{"start":12094.87,"end":12108.462,"text":"那委員書面及口頭執行為其答覆部分或要求補充資料者請以兩週內以書面答詢那委員另約定其期限內從其所定"},{"start":12110.239,"end":12131.886,"text":"接下來我們進行開始討論事項討論事項第一案及第二案處理外交部主管預算凍結提出專案報告並經同意使得凍資第二案外交部剛才已作出專案報告請問各委員是否同意解凍好經同意凍資提落宴會"},{"start":12142.937,"end":12159.733,"text":"討論事項第三案 處理外交部主管預算凍結案中提出書面報告並經同意後 使得凍資共二十四案外交部以書面報告送交本會請問各位委員是否同意解凍經同意凍資 提報願會本人會議到此結束 上會 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開玩笑"},{"start":2160.543,"end":2190.363,"text":"我不懂 你說大法官問這個問題在開玩笑你問的問題也在開玩笑啦這個事情要問那個 王委員這樣啦齁因為上一次我們現場法庭的大法官對這東西有意義嘛有意見嘛那我們要避免將來我們的會議議事錄被認定說是無效所以我們要確認我只是說本委員會我們確認一套議事規則那如果大家沒有意見我們就依照過往的規定本委員會確定一個議事規則啊其他委員會要不要確認一個議事規則所以是個別委員會啊這第一步就是開玩笑嘛"},{"start":2190.923,"end":2215.522,"text":"欸 王委員你要懂意思規則欸轉 轉 轉 你換人家開話就你第一次問這個問題啊 好好 那沒關係 你不懂意思規則就算了齁好 意思規則我們委員會自治不是啊 你問這個問題 剛才我國聰要說這叫開玩笑啊你問這題就是開玩笑啊好啦 如果這樣啊你換人家就一個約定俗成的做法來你問那個王委員 如果這樣那你應該去質疑大法官在問什麼問題質疑大法官 我質疑大法官 我質疑你剛才說這句話啊 國聰也給你解說說問這個問題就是開玩笑"},{"start":2219.636,"end":2240.662,"text":"好 沒關係你不懂就算了 如果大家沒有意見 我們就依照過往多年的議事慣例 本委員會的慣例如果當我們詢問有無意義 那大家沒有表示反對的意思的話那就是無意義 我想說我們就依照這多年的慣例來處理那我們接著介紹到場的委員"},{"start":2246.065,"end":2263.956,"text":"那因為剛因為我有詢問會議事務有無錯誤會議論那大家都沒有意見所以議事務確定好那我們接著介紹到場的委員黃國昌委員還有王逸川委員我們接著介紹應邀列席的官員司法院副秘書長王副秘書長"},{"start":2265.939,"end":2278.782,"text":"法務部部長、政部長法務部調查局副局長、吳副局長國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、陳代理主任委員內政部警政署張署長"},{"start":2281.496,"end":2302.284,"text":"好 其餘沒有介紹的列席代表請參院名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄那本次會議排定一三兩天為一次會今日邀請思考院副秘書長法務部部長等機關率所屬相關單位列席就民眾反映受到罷免聯署簡訊顯非商業廣告目的使用"},{"start":2303.024,"end":2318.758,"text":"以質疑個資洩漏而侵害人民權益進行專題報告並被質詢那我們現在進行報告每月發表時間三分鐘我們先請市法院副秘書長王富彌爽報告然後接著我們會請法務部部長鄭部長報告好謝謝"},{"start":2327.754,"end":2348.296,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進大家早安今天逢要列席貴委員會代表司法院進行專題報告深感榮幸那請說明本院意見如下進行指教民眾收到罷免連署的簡訊呢那如果是因為公務機關或者是非公務機關"},{"start":2349.978,"end":2362.772,"text":"洩露個人資料而是侵害人民權益的時候呢可能違反了個人資料保護法也就是個資法等相關規定那民眾可以向管轄法院提起救濟"},{"start":2364.594,"end":2392.953,"text":"我關於民事責任部分呢 個資法對於公務機關還有非公務機關的蒐集處理利用一般個人資料跟特種個人資料的要件在第六條第一項以下的都有明文的規定那如果違反了這些規定導致個人的資料被不法的蒐集處理利用或者是其他的侵害個人權利的情況那就需要負民事損害賠償責任"},{"start":2395.297,"end":2400.112,"text":"刑事责任部分呢各执法41条有规定行为人主观上"},{"start":2402.069,"end":2428.646,"text":"为自己或是他人不法的利益或是损害他人利益的意图违反了各自法第六条十五十六十九二十二十一条的规定足以生损害他人权利的时候呢那是有五年以下有期徒刑还有并科新台币一百万元以下罚金的刑事责任那另外同法四十二条呢也有刑事责任的规定"},{"start":2429.963,"end":2437.529,"text":"第三點有關於行政救濟部分呢對於非公務機關如果違反了個資法47條48條第一項第二項第三項個資法49條個資法59條的規定呢都有那個"},{"start":2450.069,"end":2467.759,"text":"有相關的那個罰還的那個責任那另外個資法24條呢也有規定相關的行政救濟那以上 以上報告呢就請 敬請各位委員那個指教謝謝各位好 謝謝黃富密那下一位我們請鄭部長報告"},{"start":2475.65,"end":2495.386,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生早安今天奉邀列席貴委員會就民眾反映收到罷免連署簡訊顯微商業廣告目的的運用指以各自洩漏而侵害人民權利代表本部列席報告並被諮詢那緊就討論提綱提供意見如下那"},{"start":2496.773,"end":2511.526,"text":"個人資料的保護規範管理公務機關收集處理利用這部分的個資法就公務機關對一般個資的收集處理明文規定應有特定目的並符合執行法定職權必要"},{"start":2513.788,"end":2531.901,"text":"範圍內經當事人同意或對當事人權利無侵害等情侶之一方得為之對一般個人資料的利用應與執行法定職務必要範圍內為之並與收集特定目的相符非有各執法第16條但書所列情形之一不得為特定目的外之使用"},{"start":2532.682,"end":2554.707,"text":"另外違反的責任這部分按各自法41條規定意圖為自己或第三人部法治利益或損害他人的利益而違反上海規定處五年以下有期徒刑的病科薪台幣100萬元以下罰金公務員假借職務喪失權利機會方法而犯前階的罪加重起刑至二分之一那公務機關適用國家賠償法的規定"},{"start":2558.388,"end":2574.325,"text":"那非公務機關這部分呢個資法就非公務機關對一般個資的收集處理已有規定應有的土地目的並符合當事人自行公開或其他已合法公開的個人資料經當事人同意"},{"start":2575.006,"end":2591.725,"text":"個人資料是取自一般可得的來源對當事人的權利無侵害等等情形之一使得為之其利用除有為增進公共利益所必要為防止他人權利之重大危害經當事人的同意有利於當事人之權利這些情形之一"},{"start":2593.038,"end":2613.894,"text":"而可為目的外資利用 應以收集至特定目的必要範圍內為之那違反的責任這部分會公務機關違反本法的規定自個人資料 自部法收集處理利用或其他侵害當事人的權利 互損害賠償責任主管機關可裁處五萬元以上 五十萬元以下罰款"},{"start":2614.894,"end":2640.205,"text":"並令限期改正 坦系意圖為自己或第三者不法利益或損害他人之利益而違反除五年以下期徒刑病科的病科一百萬以下的罰金至於此間民眾反映的情形及各執法相關規定的適用問題本部尊重全責主管機關個人資料保護委員會籌備處的意見及解釋以上包括敬請主席及各位委員指教"},{"start":2646.311,"end":2653.066,"text":"好謝謝部長那其餘的提出報告順便報告機關有沒有要口頭補充的"},{"start":2654.224,"end":2679.772,"text":"好那如果各位沒有的話好那我們機關代表報告完畢那相關書面內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄那我們現在進行詢答那本委員會詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本委員會詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長那上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":2689.437,"end":2693.799,"text":"第一個問題請教一下司法院跟法務部的代表PBS民調對賴清德總統執政週年針對11個面向"},{"start":2714.045,"end":2738.306,"text":"各項施政的滿意跟不滿意度做出了民調知不知道在司法改革滿意度排名第幾名司法院副秘書長知不知道有在媒體上看到排名第幾名滿意度是排名最後最後一名 不滿意度呢最高"},{"start":2738.877,"end":2762.474,"text":"所以你對賴清德總統執政週年到目前為止事發改革你打幾分您個人打幾分不好打分數來請法務部部長那個民調是可以做一個參考所以你個人打幾分這個我是認為是及格你認為是及格嘛好來"},{"start":2763.325,"end":2790.288,"text":"我們來看一下啦 部長的認知為什麼跟一般的民眾啊脫節這麼嚴重第一個問題啊又一個重大的金融犯跑啦徐少東啊關係很好啊後台很硬啊跑啦來 請教一下現在發布通緝了沒有呃 這個是因為這個是審理中的一個案件有沒有發布通緝這是要看法院來 法院發布通緝了沒有"},{"start":2791.715,"end":2794.176,"text":"目前還沒有為什麼還沒有為什麼還沒有 多給他一點時間跑嗎現在還在具體 應該是還在具體階段你覺得具體的到嗎來請教法務部部長 這個個案最高檢察總長講了好幾次啊"},{"start":2817.086,"end":2836.54,"text":"這種案子要盯好啊但我現在看不懂啊一個基本的問題徐少東在這個案子以前有沒有被通緝過徐少東在這件以前沒有通緝過來看一下早就多次被通緝了啦法院的裁定寫得很清楚啦"},{"start":2837.546,"end":2862.154,"text":"之前他跟法院申請延長有關於禁止出境出海的法院判決理由寫得很清楚啊前面有通緝未到案的紀錄還不是一次好幾次然後法院在裁定理由當中認定什麼認定說他有應變計畫有私下管道能夠出境"},{"start":2863.517,"end":2892.359,"text":"結果咧結果好笑了要不要羈押是一回事有實施電子監控嗎有嗎這部分齁這部分那個二審的檢察官有建立那個法院這部分要實施電子監控然後法院沒有採欸因為沒有開庭還沒有到開庭就就所以嘛這個案子來看一下齁第一刻啊二審判了12年"},{"start":2894.232,"end":2904.499,"text":"重刑犯而且那個徐少東啊可怕的是什麼他不是只有吸金洗錢耶他沒有違反反滲透法被起訴"},{"start":2906.206,"end":2919.254,"text":"有沒有這部分我們有申請羈押但是因為法院不准我們一層一層來嘛現在人民看不懂嘛我們檢察官這部分都有申請羈押這個法務部部長請你聽我問完問題再回答好不好法務部部長請你聽我問完問題再回答可以嗎可以嗎可以嗎這可以好來人民看不懂啊"},{"start":2934.465,"end":2954.606,"text":"跑了好幾次被通緝啊重判12年啊還違反反滲透法結果咧沒有羈押就算了連電子監控也沒有連電子監控也沒有 我有說錯嗎 沒有啊現在人跑了啊"},{"start":2955.868,"end":2975.305,"text":"我最簡單一個事情誰要負責還是法務部跟司法院繼續上演踢皮球大賽來部長你覺得誰要負責這部分我們檢查在這三個案件都有申請羈押來司法院副秘書長所以是不是法官要檢討是不是這樣這個部分那個法院"},{"start":2980.126,"end":3008.043,"text":"在二審的那個法院呢 他是有訂那個庭期就是 就是要準備要那個要審理來 這個案子審理多久了這個案子審理多久了人跑了現在才說 啊我們原來有要訂庭期啊去年的時候就已經判12年了然後現在突然說人跑了開始裝忙說法院要訂庭期too late"},{"start":3009.076,"end":3034.457,"text":"人跑掉了是這樣嗎那個各位原報告齁就是從4月就是那個鍾文智那個的那個案件之後呢其實司法院也都有就是請我老實講啦鍾文智是第一個案子嗎之前朱國隆不就跑掉了嗎朱國隆跑掉了法務部司法院要不要各自回去看一看你們當初發了什麼新聞稿"},{"start":3036.633,"end":3065.183,"text":"要不要回去看一看你們當初發了什麼新聞稿朱國榮跑了 裝忙一陣子崇文智跑了 再裝忙一陣子現在連徐少東都跑了為什麼人民對司法這麼憤怒有關係就沒關係嘛那後台硬啊違反反滲透法又怎麼樣背叛12年又怎麼樣不要說沒有羈押連電子監控都沒有"},{"start":3067.866,"end":3096.206,"text":"來請法務部部長不好意思來請調查局副局長我接到檢舉啊調查局是不是有個調查官啊裝密錄器在超商偷拍未成年少女的群體有沒有這回事有這回事我們已經在依照我們的程序在處理了什麼時候發生的事情應該是大概兩個禮拜以前兩個禮拜以前處理到今天處理成什麼樣子"},{"start":3097.418,"end":3118.656,"text":"我們已經...我們已經...督察室有找他來約談過然後呢?我們會盡快的開考機會來做處理現在有停職嗎?目前沒有停職目前沒有停職我們要經過...考機會要經過一定程序之後才會做這樣的處理可以快點開嗎?會 盡快 我們會盡快開不是啊 做這種令人髮指的行為啊做這種令人髮指的行為"},{"start":3120.308,"end":3144.012,"text":"結果你們調查員裡面的人跟我檢舉啊說看他好好的沒有事啊連停職都沒有啊這什麼關針啊報告員我們在知道這個狀況第二天我們就已經去找他約談過然後呢什麼時候要開考機會我們會盡快安排就開考機會盡快是多久我想我們會回去之後我們已經在討論我們在找適當的時間我會盡快還要在找適當的時間喔這樣的人還適合繼續當調查官嗎"},{"start":3151.427,"end":3176.032,"text":"請調查局盡快不要讓大家產生錯覺一個堂堂的調查官做這種令人髮指的事情結果現在還好好的什麼事都沒有來接下來請法務部部長從列同的案子大家就開始在講無期徒刑"},{"start":3177.506,"end":3204.131,"text":"台灣的無期徒刑根本是假的台灣的無期徒刑是假的沒有真的在搞無期徒刑我們從具體的案子來講1999年一個大黑道殺人罪遭判無期徒刑2017年假釋出獄負保護管署結果咧把假釋放出來了以後做了什麼事情來我們繼續看"},{"start":3206.121,"end":3228.473,"text":"把假釋放出來了以後繼續啊搞買兇殺人啊洗錢啊詐欺啊恐嚇取材啊樣樣都來啊第一個問題啊法務部有沒有檢討當初這個假釋是怎麼做的有跟委員報告事實上這個假釋的這個問題假釋的要件是什麼"},{"start":3229.639,"end":3251.482,"text":"假釋的話就是有千毀十據然後呢執行的有超過有些二分之一這樣就可以囉那武器農要二十萬這部分還是要千毀十據啦要具體個案所以你覺得他這樣有千毀十據嗎這部分是那時候是如果有千毀十據的人出來又買兇殺人又洗錢又詐欺又恐嚇取材喔你不會覺得很諷刺嗎"},{"start":3253.303,"end":3278.84,"text":"這個假釋認定是怎麼定的 有缺毀時劇認定他有缺毀時劇結果出來又買兇殺人造成更大的危害當初這個假釋誰准的這個是應該十一零幾回去了解好不好這個假釋應該是在十幾年前的時候的一樣嘛2017年就放出來啦我時間有講錯嗎"},{"start":3280.882,"end":3299.501,"text":"那這部分我們回去再做一個了解需要多久一個禮拜可不可以兩個禮拜而已好 兩個禮拜當初假釋怎麼準的提書面報告給本委員會啊提書面報告給本委員會啊為什麼人民對無期徒刑沒有信心搞假的嘛"},{"start":3301.322,"end":3321.44,"text":"殺人了 判無期徒刑又怎麼樣所以這部分我們有提一個草案就是對特殊重大暴力類型的犯罪比如說殺人 殺人未遂判無期徒刑有期徒刑逾十年這邊受刑我們是有提修正案是不得假釋好 這個修正案現在到哪裡在行政院審查中行政院還要審查多久"},{"start":3322.591,"end":3336.433,"text":"已經開兩次審查一樣嘛我們又陷入了無限巡迴嘛當初吹哨者保護法法務部也是說我們早就提出來了一直在行政院審查研議審查恩典"},{"start":3338.756,"end":3365.818,"text":"棄保潛逃罪不法關說罪一模一樣法務部也是說我們早提出來了就在行政院研議研議N年來就有關於法務部所謂提出來的這個法案部長你判斷行政院還要研議多久嗯這部分我們沒有辦法判斷這我們會會禁訴會禁訴對這不是到行政院了嗎對在這部分我們會這個你可以禁訴缺少者保護法沒辦法禁訴"},{"start":3367.762,"end":3393.507,"text":"不法關說沒辦法禁訴 棄保潛逃沒辦法禁訴請部長回去轉告行政院院長卓榮泰人民很憤怒啊 人民很憤怒啊問一下卓榮泰 他還要研議多久問一下卓榮泰 他還要研議多久全民都在等他的答案這委員放心啊 這個我們會放心 從你們過去的時機有辦法放心嗎"},{"start":3395.792,"end":3420.261,"text":"從你們過去的時期有辦法放心嗎好來繼續再往下看2012年民間司改會發動了一個追緝二檢的行動針對檢察官在問案的時候威脅恐嚇逼人認罪壓人取共提出沉痛的呼籲當初這個追緝二檢行動的三位大將"},{"start":3421.752,"end":3447.202,"text":"一位林峰正現在不當黨產管理委員會主任委員一位顧立雄現在是國防部部長一位游博翔現在到憲法法庭當大法官當初這三位代表民間司改會要出來追緝二檢講的話是直立有聲請問一下部長你覺得當初要追緝二檢的問題今天還存在嗎"},{"start":3449.217,"end":3478.093,"text":"這部分我們都有通函我們就有要求任何的機會就要求我們這個在依法定程序所以你沒有回答我的問題嗎?這個問題還存在嗎?我們是隨時注意我想這個所謂二檢這部分我們就依法官法這部分我們要做一個依法官來做一個處理做什麼處理?不要講空洞的啦講那麼空泛的"},{"start":3479.278,"end":3499.13,"text":"那事實上我們有受理,依法官受理檢察個案拼件已經有982件,每年收案217件來我們看一下當初監察院是怎麼糾正法務部的來看一下,這是十幾年前檢察官代表國家刑事犯罪偵查追溯"},{"start":3500.063,"end":3527.654,"text":"以不當的方式怒罵威脅受詢問人不僅是個人的言行不當更嚴重損及國家形象及司法尊嚴也侵害受詢問人人權的保障十幾年前我這三位民間司改會的夥伴講的是直立有聲現在呢現在呢現在會不會出現這樣的狀況我希望部長回去"},{"start":3528.823,"end":3554.244,"text":"好好的了解一下第一線實際上面的狀況好好的了解今天我敢在這邊公開質詢我手上就是有實據我很想把錄音帶放出來好好讓全民聽一聽我們的檢察官現在是怎麼在問案的好 謝謝謝謝黃委員 那下一位我們請王逸川委員發言"},{"start":3569.281,"end":3590.16,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請法務部副局長麻煩法務部然後這個中選會的代表跟數位部的代表 謝謝中選會 好 數法部委員長好還有調查局 對好 麻煩副局長"},{"start":3597.202,"end":3619.96,"text":"好,我先請教調查局的這個副局長先請教你的原因是因為你們的報告寫得最好這個把所謂的簡訊的分類寫得非常清楚簡訊的來源不是只有我們有手機號碼會收到各式各樣我們用網路購物,貨到了也會收到簡訊各式各樣的這個分類"},{"start":3622.728,"end":3651.844,"text":"那我先想要請教一下就是說這一個發送簡訊啊發送簡訊的人有問題還是提供提供這個這個電話給發送簡訊的單位如果違反個資法是哪一個哪一個有問題報言這個可能要看事實的個案來做認定好我現在假設假設今天召委排的這個題目啊就是說有人收到了"},{"start":3653.892,"end":3681.034,"text":"這個簡訊那請他來參與連署嘛假設是這樣那請他參與連署那一定是一定是這個電信公司收到有人給了他一個名冊或者叫電話然後就丟給了這個電信公司付了錢給電信公司那電信公司就傳給了這個不管是手機收到簡訊的人那如果違反個資法那發送訊號發送訊息的這個電信公司有沒有事"},{"start":3682.472,"end":3707.152,"text":"那可能因為如果說有行為的分擔有翻譯的聯絡可能有共犯的問題但是像您講的這個狀況我們不知道他彼此之間聯繫的這個狀況所以還是要看個案的實際就是說我現在假設我有一千個電話號碼我就交給了假設叫中華電信我有一千個電話號碼我交給了中華電信請他幫我傳這些文字那中華電信有沒有事"},{"start":3708.365,"end":3735.145,"text":"中央電信他如果只是接受委託的話他可能在看起來是沒有犯罪的這個意圖也沒有跟他做一個犯罪行為分擔的這個狀況的話那從您講的這樣的表象看起來可能不會有犯罪的問題但是個案還是我們會如果有個案的犯罪我們還是提報到基金署好 這個我了解了第二個請這個法務部部長"},{"start":3737.418,"end":3761.932,"text":"我們在選舉前 或者是在罷免前我們都會收到 請踴躍投票會吧 應該會吧 請踴躍投票就是不管是誰傳來的 請踴躍投票那如果有人收到 請不要去投票如果有人收到 請去連署有人收到 請不要去連署"},{"start":3763.288,"end":3788.279,"text":"這四種嘛 只有我收到訊息 收到請去投票 請不要去投票 請參與連署 請不要參與連署這四件事情 如果按照這個各執法是損害個人 他人個人的利益的時候這四種文字 哪一種會損害到個人的利益"},{"start":3790.26,"end":3814.883,"text":"最主要是因為他有那個電話電話的通訊的一個一個號碼所以他那個簡訊才會發到這些這些民眾的手裡對那所以這個是這怎麼那個那個個人資料是怎麼來的這個可能還要再去做一個了解但是我想這個應該是屬於各自法的問題這個收集處理利用這是一個怎麼是收集的"},{"start":3815.243,"end":3840.103,"text":"怎麼去處理 後來怎麼利用這收集來處理嘛處理完之後我傳一個訊息給你嘛那是我個人認為我的利益受損我就可以去告發還是怎麼樣他那個如果說當然如果說用戶來講他認為有受損他認為有合乎各支法的那個41條或等其他的相關的規定的話他當然可以去檢舉或者去做一個告發"},{"start":3840.743,"end":3864.413,"text":"那這樣檢察官當然以辦案的就會依法來處理來調查看會不會成立這個請中選會我剛剛提的那四個投票前有人通知你說請永樂投票或者是說這個反罷免的一方啊他說這個反正你們投票也不會超過25%啦請不要投票"},{"start":3866.155,"end":3889.946,"text":"或者現在還有在連署的請踴躍連署或者發一個訊息說請不要去連署這個中選會這四個你們管不管有沒有哪一個妨礙選舉包委員如果說是支持或反對罷免活動的話那我想這個都是罷免宣傳的一種態樣那除非說他那選舉呢"},{"start":3891.421,"end":3916.29,"text":"選舉也是一樣請不要投票這個我想這個請這個都是一種宣傳的一種行為都可以嗎像以前這個公投的時候啊就有人就什麼貼一個貼紙說請不要投就請不要投好所以這個對於這個訊息的內容基本上中選會不管我講的這四種是你們不管"},{"start":3917.498,"end":3932.156,"text":"如果是宣傳的行為的話 支持或是不支持我想這個都是宣傳行為的一種好所以這個宣傳說請不要投票請去投票請參加罷免請不要罷免對中選會來說這四個都沒有問題如果是單純的宣傳行為應該是沒有違法"},{"start":3937.236,"end":3941.157,"text":"除非有人非法利用他人的資料來傳送那非法就請教部長我最近收到叫我去驗車的通知"},{"start":3959.534,"end":3971.05,"text":"我當時去驗車的時候我留下資料的時候他也沒有說什麼五年後會聯絡我啊現在聯絡我的是好幾年前我去驗車的一個民間的代檢場啊他怎麼可以傳簡訊給我"},{"start":3977.028,"end":3998.204,"text":"可能就是那個代監場有那個客戶的一些的資料這是如何去蒐集當然我們這個就可以啦這個是在我們那個資法裡面規定像那個28條跟29條它裡面公務機關這個是應該是屬於29規公務機關違反本法規定自個人資料遭受不法蒐集處理利用其他"},{"start":3998.965,"end":4021.159,"text":"侵害當事人權利這個要負損害賠償責任但若證明無故意或過失不在此限所以這個有沒有這個還要做個案的做一個認定做一個認定那事實上整個一個太樣很多那這個是因為各自法的主管機關在一個解釋如何非法好 說起處理用這個要個人資料保護"},{"start":4023.404,"end":4032.55,"text":"籌備處好那我們就有沒有代表來這個數位部的代表籌備處來請問一下不好意思請問一下我們現在去餐廳訂位子打電話去今天晚上八點王先生試會對方問我說請問手機號碼我就留給他了他只有問這樣我就會留給他大部分都這樣"},{"start":4053.453,"end":4060.144,"text":"過了一個月以後 他傳了一個簡訊給我說 歡迎你再來吃啦 我們最近打五折"},{"start":4061.044,"end":4084.878,"text":"我沒有答應他再傳給我啊這樣有沒有違反個資法因為一開始如果說是在定位的時候他可能會是有一個契約或類似契約的關係那這個時候依照個資法的規定他是可以蒐集必要的個人資料例如手機號碼但是之後他如果要做行銷之用的話其實還是需要經過當事人的同意才能夠做這個行銷你這樣說這條就嚴重了"},{"start":4087.892,"end":4094.814,"text":"這條這樣嚴重啊你今天講完之後這事情還蠻嚴重的我們打電話去餐廳他都問我電話號碼嘛這合理嘛我們好像覺得很合理啦因為我剛剛講說我不要給你電話他說那我沒辦法讓你定位喔那我就留電話給你了那留了電話給你之後他也許時間到了我遲到五分鐘他會轉簡訊給我說你遲到你到底有沒有要來對不對過了一個月之後他給我行銷了嘛他給我行銷"},{"start":4116.562,"end":4138.741,"text":"那給我行銷這個動作在你們現在的認定裡頭他也沒有徵得我同意嘛他就是在電話中我也沒有看那個熱熱等的文字嗎我們有時候去簽一大堆他叫我看一堆文字然後說什麼保護啊這樣那現在他如果這樣這種情形他又傳給了消費者有人去檢舉說我上次去吃完之後他又傳簡訊給我你們怎麼處理"},{"start":4141.237,"end":4169.699,"text":"就依照目前以往不管是在法務部或是國發會或是我們現在籌備處的韓式的見解就是說當你在做行銷的時候因為它跟一開始它是接受定位的這樣的一個目的是有一點不太一樣的那因為它是不同的目的所以它其實是需要額外再經過當事人的同意說我願意讓你用我的電話號碼做行銷那如果說沒有這樣的一個同意的話基本上確實可能會有違反各自法的這個疑慮"},{"start":4170.54,"end":4177.961,"text":"唉唷 那這個事情就麻煩了 這個再請法務部或司法院 大家開一下會 因為這個會很普遍"},{"start":4179.093,"end":4205.199,"text":"會很普遍啦 我們一般消費者就留電話給人家嘛那留了之後以後又收到如果我不開心了 我可不可以去告發他說你又沒有徵得我同意你怎麼老是傳簡訊給我好 最後一個我們參加活動 愛情部長我們參加活動會留下很多的資料參加社團 坐遊覽車 保險 旅遊都會留下蠻多跟個人資訊有關的這個訊息啦"},{"start":4207.796,"end":4226.75,"text":"那如果這一個剛剛講這個電信公司收到了一組電話號碼假設一千個電話號碼然後他就幫我傳了一個訊息可是這一千組的電話號碼我交給電信公司的時候就是這個委託人交給電信公司的時候其實他也不知道那一千組哪裡來的"},{"start":4228.544,"end":4245.609,"text":"因為一千組可能是攬攬攬攬攬一通就對了反正這個社團已經二十年了這個社團都有這些社員的名冊或各式各樣的社團的名冊那這個已經攬攬攬攬攬了很久之後大家也都一直傳一傳就沒有事啊結果呢"},{"start":4248.195,"end":4264.092,"text":"這次有人告發 假設啦 假設他不知道為什麼 目的他告發說 欸 你怎麼有我的電話碼 你怎麼傳簡訊給我未必是跟政治有關啦 就是一般的這樣子那如果有人去告發了 那回頭去找這個提供電話的人啦"},{"start":4265.073,"end":4269.318,"text":"啊你如果有這個電話,你如果拿到中華電信給你傳訊,這個電話對對來這個承辦人可能說,這個電話我們社團已經二三十年了,就都這個電話啊結果這個提供的人,現在也許會出事嘛對不對"},{"start":4280.53,"end":4298.68,"text":"這部分事實上因為提供說不定可能就是一個收集保有這些個人資料的最原始的那個或者是輾轉來的那剛才11條的話是個人資料的收集的特定目的消失所以本來譬如說我們為了旅行做一個名冊裡面有一些聯絡資料"},{"start":4300.066,"end":4327.801,"text":"那如果說這個特定的目的當是為了旅遊或者某一個特定目的或者期限屆門這個屆門的時候那個當然收集處理的那一位當然就要依主動或依當事人之請求刪除停止處理或利用個人資料但是如果執行職或業務所必須或經當事人署名同意那不再執行所以這個還是要看那個要看個案"},{"start":4328.861,"end":4344.905,"text":"個案來處理有沒有同意或者有沒有那個個案的情形這個有一條界線啦你想說我常常收到我以前是台中嘛收到台中很多的市議員叫我沒感動的還有以前的議長祝我生日快樂我當時可能有留電話給他我名片有留電話給他可是我現在叫他不好啊我現在跟他不好了"},{"start":4354.451,"end":4382.65,"text":"那他傳給我生日快樂我覺得你怎麼會有我的電話號碼他那個事實上據各自法也不是都是因為他第一條裡面就有規定這個因為他是做一個平衡他自己是為了規範個人資料的收集處理利用以避免人格而前受到侵害並促進個人資料的合理使用還有那個合理使用所以如果有些資料是祝你生日快樂我是認為是沒有"},{"start":4386.052,"end":4399.463,"text":"電話號碼是一個經營社會生活必要的工具就像我們這個連這個都是屬於個人的所以這都是屬於個人資料的有些的一個範圍我舉這個例子只是說因為我們到處都會留下我們的電話號碼"},{"start":4408.87,"end":4431.869,"text":"我們也常常收到簡訊我們也不知道那個簡訊是我在哪裡留下電話號碼而收到的簡訊所以個人的利益受損或者是他不當的利用這些資料的這一條界線可能也要有一個清楚讓民眾知道像剛剛提到說我去餐廳訂餐廳電話給這間餐廳這間餐廳兩三個月架一個行銷方案給我"},{"start":4436.426,"end":4458.434,"text":"既然這中間那條線搞不好有跨過去因為他也沒有我書面同意諸如此類的事情我覺得這個可能相關的單位找個機會給民眾一個共同的這個答案讓大家包括商家也可以有一個依詢以上謝謝謝謝王委員那我們接下來請林倩池委員代理主席"},{"start":4476.052,"end":4488.841,"text":"我們麻煩NCC中華電信還有各自保護委員會還有部長跟調查局副局長文豪"},{"start":4495.212,"end":4511,"text":"我先接著剛剛因為我剛剛聽那個王玉昌委員的問題我覺得還蠻有興趣的結果剛剛王玉昌委員其實有問部長就是這個如果這個違法的要求大家罷免或不罷免這有沒有構成違法"},{"start":4511.6,"end":4534.538,"text":"其實這個有耶 這個在選罷法98條有所以選罷法98條可能我先幫部長回覆一下王委員好 那一樣我想說因為我剛剛聽王委員的問題我覺得我有興趣所以我想就接著往下問幾個問題就是那剛剛所提到的如果說我們部長需不需要先看一下98條就我們時間可以先暫停就是選罷法98條時間先暫停"},{"start":4541.209,"end":4543.393,"text":"對先暫停,先讓他們看一下條文"},{"start":4562.228,"end":4577.68,"text":"那我就順著那個王委員的問題就是那如果說我們現在看的98條第一項第二款那如果說今天我們是用一個非法的方式叫大家來罷免或不來罷免你看其實他是符合98條第一項第二款"},{"start":4578.877,"end":4590.352,"text":"就跟部長報告一下所以說如果前面有違反個資去收集到相關的資訊然後再拿違反個資所取得的資訊來做後續的傳播訊息等等的動作其實是有問題的"},{"start":4595.478,"end":4621.434,"text":"我再跟部長報告一下部長你們應該要稍微了解嘛 而且另外調局你們這個應該也可以列為選舉查查的合分因為你們前面很多動作都 違照文書都列為選舉查查積分在合分的嘛那像這個的話完全就是違反選罷法98條第一項第二款更可以名正言順用那個選罷法的積分來合分副局長你們有要處理這個嗎 有沒有"},{"start":4625.923,"end":4645.738,"text":"如果我們受理相關的這個告發案件的話我們會收集相關資料然後提報給地檢署好那我在這邊就是我等一下會再談一下個資的這個部分那我這邊也先跟副局長說明一下如果說這段時間的這個個資的利用上面假設是違法的話那"},{"start":4646.298,"end":4659.524,"text":"你們千萬記得我在這邊直接跟你們說嘛那你們就要開始下去調查因為這跟全民有關嘛那我也再跟兩位說明一下最近有很多實務上面查到的炸雞集團他就是利用這些簡訊所獲得的資訊因為"},{"start":4662.565,"end":4685.433,"text":"這些簡訊他雖然是外面的簡訊的代理商來幫忙發送這些訊息但這些代理商他所得到的這個門號他可以從門號去知道你去過哪些地點去過哪些地點嘛 使用的基地台位置這個在中華電信的廣告裡面也寫得很清楚你去過哪一間實體的售車展覽場然後之後他就會丟這個車輛的簡訊給你嘛"},{"start":4689.694,"end":4714.487,"text":"這個中華電信的廣告都有那我如果這樣的話那我自然我就可以從這些簡訊發送的代理商那邊從每個人的門號去反推回這個人曾經到過哪裡使用過哪幾個基地台這些東西請你們要注意一下很多詐團現在開始在用這些資料那就台灣詐欺很多啊我們現在要幫國人守住這一塊這個你們不能都裝作都視而不見"},{"start":4716.376,"end":4734.308,"text":"那我這邊跟幾位說明一下就是這個月初的新聞報告報道就有關這個罷免的連署的這個簡訊嘛那有那個反共護台聯盟的人指出說他們這個簡訊是透過跟代理商這邊下單去購買的這個服務"},{"start":4737.39,"end":4758.724,"text":"那他說呢 這個代理商會跟三大業者合作並以區域 基地台 以及當初申請門號的地點還有作為發送地點好 所以呢 光目前依據那個報導新北市就有五個選區有 雙河 板橋 淡水 新店等等的像台中那邊也都有"},{"start":4759.54,"end":4783.895,"text":"所以 以當初發送門號的地點 他也可以針對這個門號 申請人的年齡 學歷 性別等等的這些來取得這些發送的資料那我想請教一下 就是 霸團取得這五個選區的各行動電話的門號然後廣發簡訊 鼓勵罷免的連署 那為什麼霸團可以取得這些資料"},{"start":4787.537,"end":4812.311,"text":"好 沒關係 那我幫你們回答好了那就是因為 霸團向這些業者下單嘛 對不對因為業者手上有這些資料 所以他霸團向他下單嘛但是呢 我必須提一個點我們這次我們知道的 我們最近一段時間我們很多科技執法的修法那你要知道 門號跟使用者位置 這個其實是符合通保法三之一條的通訊記錄資料"},{"start":4813.812,"end":4830.487,"text":"也就是說這些東西很多都是要檢察官申請法官核准才能調閱那如果中華電信今天什麼都不管就全部丟出去給業者那這個也很奇怪而且四字689號也有講得很清楚就是即使我們一般人在公開場合"},{"start":4832.148,"end":4859.947,"text":"我們的一些行為我們也有不受關注的權利我們在公開場合我們還是有一些個人隱私的主張的權利嘛而不是說中華電信你可以把所有的資料全部都給那些業者他們想怎麼用就怎麼用好 那我想請問一下各支委員會我們最近有民眾反映說他搬到中壢了他人搬到中壢了結果他在中壢有收到訊息啊那你們有沒有發覺這是怎麼回事"},{"start":4861.815,"end":4879.532,"text":"因為目前個資法他還是是一個分管的狀況所以因為我們目前我們個資籌備處是沒有調查的權限所以這個部分可能還是會變成是由各業別的目的事業主管機關他在個案他才有調查的權限那你們就沒有再管這一塊嗎"},{"start":4880.499,"end":4901.825,"text":"因為因為應該是說目前我們收到如果有收到民眾因為我目前其實也沒有收到民眾對我們有有任何的這樣我跟你講那個民眾還說那會不會我連我去汽車旅館就資料全部都被你們掌握他們現在擔心的這個點我可以去某一個汽車賣場然後你就知道我去過然後讓業者丟訊息丟汽車的訊息給我"},{"start":4903.445,"end":4923.713,"text":"那我去了哪一間企業旅館他會不會下次你就丟他的折下券給我這是那個民眾的質疑啦另外我上網看了一下這個簡訊的這個收費大概就0.7起跳到1.5所以當然我也會覺得說哇這些霸團真的超有錢的因為我拿到一個數據就內政部的一個公開數據啦"},{"start":4925.274,"end":4930.7,"text":"而且是112年11月電信信息人口統計光是新聞報導的這幾個區加起來電信使用的人口有156萬3184人那如果說依據我們以最便宜的0.7塊來看好了以0.7塊的這個數字"},{"start":4947.591,"end":4968.646,"text":"如果說他真的都發的話大概要一百零九萬多啦那當然我不知道他到底發了多少了我們也蠻希望說這些罷團最後能夠公開這些經費的使用因為我國目前在這一塊法律上面建構不夠完全我們選舉 我們最後選舉經費要報到中選會去但是罷免卻不用"},{"start":4969.446,"end":4988.974,"text":"那他們錢哪裡來 怎麼用 都沒有人管所以現在好多個罷團 現在都發 內部都發生因為經費使用 有人私下去募款 有人錢不知道怎麼用就內部鬧哄哄 上次那個謝國良那個 他那個罷免案也是啊罷免完之後 到現在他們還在吵 還在吵罷免那個經費的使用"},{"start":4990.294,"end":5008.044,"text":"所以這塊內政部是有提說要修法啦但在修法之前這次就天下大亂因為錢不知道哪裡來不知道哪裡去這也是我們質疑的一個點啦那甚至有的比較更精確化的訊息是一折要一塊半所以這個費用是非常的驚人的"},{"start":5009.332,"end":5026.493,"text":"那我也不認為說資料可以讓大家這樣濫用一團是對國家的好事就像我剛剛說的現在很多詐欺集團他是利用這些所謂的簡訊代發業者所取得的資料去反推回去大家的習慣我講個很簡單的我的門號"},{"start":5029.363,"end":5050.366,"text":"立法院有 立法院在很多通訊欄上面 路上面也有把我的門號列出來那如果有人想要知道我的生活習慣 而他不是 我不是偵查單位 不是檢查機關他就拿我的門號去跟這些業者去反求門 門號的使用紀錄就好了啊所以我到過哪裡 去過哪些賣場 我的整個脈絡就出來了"},{"start":5051.607,"end":5078.915,"text":"所以這是我質疑的點而且這個點是不分藍綠都要注意的風險國人也要注意的風險因為詐欺集團他要怎麼樣騙到你的錢如果你值得他騙的話如果你夠有錢值得他騙的話他就會花時間去分析你過往的記錄就像我們以前在做情勢案件偵查的時候我會去分析這個被告他的生活習慣譬如說他喜歡看不動產的資料我就會一直丟這種類似這種東西去給他去跟他談"},{"start":5080.255,"end":5094.622,"text":"所以我們會去分析對方的資料之後然後去攻破他去理解他到底在做什麼那我們不能讓這些個人的資料到最後變成犯罪集團使用的工具這是我很在乎的一個點那中華電信我請教一下你們在"},{"start":5095.922,"end":5123.295,"text":"官網的行動寬頻服務契約書第37條你有寫到非依法或經乙方事先同意不得為收集目的以外之利用所以呢相關的資料記錄啊經過你們處理而且客觀上無法識別懷孕識別個人的可能的時候才能夠提供第三人使用但是在這段時間有非常多的例子大家都開始在那邊擔心說他可以經過很簡單的"},{"start":5125.598,"end":5143.509,"text":"反求就可以查出個人的資料就像健保資料庫的隱密性現在也被人家一直挑戰一樣那你們對於資料的個人資料的維護是遠低於健保資料庫那這個情況下我想請問一下中華電信有什麼做法嗎"},{"start":5144.434,"end":5157.859,"text":"根據人報告我現在順便跟大家說明中華電信在各支的這些收集利用處理一定都是完全按照各支法去處理那在我們公司內部從內部的檢視到內控到內積到外部通過這些ISO的2700 27701 BS10012到我們通過國家標準的這一個"},{"start":5172.761,"end":5185.736,"text":"10229100-2的這個氣勢不要檢視喔有重重的這個保護你講這個有答跟沒有答一樣我都依據各執法我經過什麼認證我都沒有問題但我們看到的是結論結論我跟你說明一下結論就是呢"},{"start":5186.943,"end":5203.376,"text":"今天很多人我當初去申請門號的時候甚至我門號是20年前申請的我沒有換過門號那我20年前申請我當時也不可能去勾選這個各自使用的同意書啊那甚至我勾選使用同意書我的範圍也沒有包括到政治活動"},{"start":5204.537,"end":5227.435,"text":"但是最近這是一個事實就變成有一些政治活動會利用這些發送簡訊或者是詐欺集團使用業者這些外面這個代理業者的資訊這個都已經是事實上的一個事實然後你在那邊跟我說我一切我符合各執法我一切我符合誰誰誰的認證但是我們看的是結論我們要處理的是社會問題"},{"start":5228.996,"end":5254.881,"text":"也跟委員報告那我為什麼先說明我們在這個部分一切有做這樣嚴謹的處理那另外一個電信公司它本身其實是一個傳輸網路的平台所以就現在爆炸的這個案或剛剛委員提到很多案例其實是來自於發訊端它的行為那我們在有關詐欺這個部分在NCC的指導跟警政機構的合作其實我們也做了很多的措施"},{"start":5255.561,"end":5281.591,"text":"那就有講跟沒有講 都是他們的錯 千錯萬錯都是他們的錯但是業者 雖然中華電信是公司 但是業者 企業有社會責任每一個企業都有他的社會責任存在那你有沒有做適當的行政調查 這就是一個很重要的點你放任說 你用我的東西 我也不知道 反正是你犯罪不是我但是你可以做行政上的控管因為現在詐欺已經是全民痛恨的東西了"},{"start":5282.111,"end":5299.174,"text":"是不分你什麼政治傾向你什麼有的沒有的大家都不喜歡詐欺但是我一直講你詐欺像你剛剛說就交給警察交給誰其實這不對的所有的正確的反詐的處理是行政先行司法在末端補位"},{"start":5299.975,"end":5326.601,"text":"你一定要從最前端的NCC 金管會等等的他去把詐騙的簡訊控管掉把詐騙的廣告控管掉減少了詐欺的案件發生之後最後才由司法機關去查就現在大家都導致了司法機關衝第一線然後行政機關不管就排山倒海的詐騙廣告我常常收到欸我家人也常常收到欸那就表示控管出了問題啊那如果你認為說這個是"},{"start":5328.427,"end":5353.814,"text":"那個簡訊帶送業者的責任那我也不知道說那貴公司的企業的社會責任哪裡去了那個謝謝你的指導事實上我們在那個社會責任有關詐欺我們不管是在簡訊或通訊因為涉及到秘密通訊所以我們這個部分呢也做了很多的那個處理那詐騙的簡訊它有很多的太陽我跟你講啦你自己看我現在這PowerPoint上面"},{"start":5354.474,"end":5383.148,"text":"你們收集了非常多的資料這是你們的廣告喔不是我們列出來的你告訴大家說你可以去哪裡收集到誰去哪裡的資料之後然後以行為分群來丟給這些人像你去有這個人常跑健身房你收集到他常跑健身房資料你就丟給他一些運動愛好的資訊這個是企業資訊上面商務上面使用沒有錯但是我跟你們說這個會導致返求之後會知道你很多資訊知道你去過哪裡"},{"start":5384.168,"end":5390.817,"text":"會有這個問題而且這個已經實務上面已經發生那麼多了另外我要跟你們提一下最近簡訊待發業者"},{"start":5392.85,"end":5413.451,"text":"在最五月份的時候發了一些那個訊息給他們的那些客戶裡面就有提到說要開始去查他們這些業他們來請求發送簡訊的這些人他們的資料等等的他們要求這些人提供那我的問題就是說五月"},{"start":5414.619,"end":5425.739,"text":"他們發了這些資訊然後說到九月底之前都會用勸導不開罰請問這是NCC的意見中央電信還有NZ都可以回答這是NCC嗎的意見到九月嗎"},{"start":5426.564,"end":5452.377,"text":"沒有跟委員報告其實我們真的要求電信業的法徵是並沒有任何的時間限制那我看到九月我想那你們是不是要幹嘛要等到大罷免結束之後再來開始查嗎現階段不用查然後另外一件事情今天發送簡訊已經在台灣已經這麼多年了但是NCC以及中華電信貴公司都沒有去做行政上面的調查這是怎麼回事"},{"start":5453.418,"end":5470.532,"text":"我們都有依據個資法第22條還有我們電信管理法第90條有進行個資檢查像這個個案我們就5月5號5月9號都進行兩次刑事檢查如果你講的啦結果現在這些簡訊待發業者在5月12號發了一個到處發了一個這個訊"},{"start":5472.994,"end":5487.447,"text":"訊息跟大家說之後每一個人委託發送檢訊人他們要提供相關的資料那過往都沒有耶而且他說九月之後才會開法耶所以我不知道我們的行政機關到底在做什麼真正該管的不管"},{"start":5489.182,"end":5515.892,"text":"這個造成國內的詐騙這麼嚴重的事情不管然後詐騙廣告不管簡訊發送不管個資會被冒用也不管什麼都不管然後今天一個一個點出來跟委員報告是這樣子說NCC對我們管的三大業者就是我們是有作用法來歸管他那他們跟上游大盤商那邊是用契約來約定但是他們有要求他們要做好KIC這一塊應該是末端的"},{"start":5516.232,"end":5530.591,"text":"末端的就待發業者的他的企業那一部分的他們都對他們的一些要求我跟你說啦 NCC是公家機關 也算政府機關是中立的嘛然後中華電信是公司嘛"},{"start":5531.601,"end":5558.691,"text":"那我只能跟兩位說啦我自己在實務上面經驗來看你們的管理上面有出很大的問題那如果你說我講錯或說你們經歷但是我們看到的是實務上面就是非常多的詐騙訊息非常多的我剛講的我給你一個門號我不用去做違法的調查我光是從這些業者代發業者所掌握的資訊我就可以回過頭去反求出你們每個人的"},{"start":5559.691,"end":5581.819,"text":"過去去過哪裡幹了什麼事情我覺得這樣對嗎 這樣從個資上面這樣OK嗎在NCC的職權範圍內我們都有嚴格的把關這一塊那相關的末端的部分應該還有對應相關的主管機關來處理資訊服務業或行銷公司這邊都不在NCC的職權範圍內最後我就說麻煩調查局還有法務部我剛剛講的"},{"start":5587.659,"end":5611.552,"text":"麻煩你們去弄清楚有沒有違反選罷法98條第一項第二款麻煩一下那我在這邊也再次的跟各位說第一個簡訊使用有沒有問題有沒有違反各自法再來你就麻煩全部都用選舉查查去核分叫底下調查官好好的處理還有有沒有違反98條你們自己可以看清清楚楚在那邊只要用違法的方式"},{"start":5612.452,"end":5628.666,"text":"做這些罷免的鼓動或要求大家不罷免這個都有違法請你們能夠就這部分去查查 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員那相關單位是不是針對吳委員剛才所提出來的具體的那個內容然後做一個書面的回應 好不好好 謝謝我會等你"},{"start":5640.587,"end":5649.516,"text":"現在我們請莊烈雄委員謝謝主席我現在也不知道要叫誰 我要叫調查局嗎副局長副局長有來齁中華電信也有來齁"},{"start":5653.376,"end":5679.551,"text":"中華電信中華電信哇 抱歉咧 民營的這樣 把你叫來但是也剛好來做一個釐清啦我剛 那個副局長 我剛針對趙偉請坐我剛針對趙偉 吳宗憲所提出來的問題啊我是很有興趣啊他提到啊 這個簡訊的發送啊涉及到整個選票法第98條 第二項的一個問題啊我倒非常支持啊 他講了一個講法"},{"start":5681.36,"end":5684.287,"text":"按照吳宗憲委員這個講法,我告訴你,台東縣海端鄉的民眾就跟我來檢舉"},{"start":5691.397,"end":5695.661,"text":"就一直接受到中國國民黨去寄送的一些資料說國民黨快滅黨了喔你們就趕出來連署喔來罷免成癮喔你們要滅黨跟成癮到底有什麼關係好啦 如果是簡訊是違法的你來搜集這個 人家個資 同樣都等同個資啊個資裡面不是只有簡訊才叫個資啊不然你們是不是這樣說"},{"start":5717.553,"end":5722.697,"text":"我們的這個在工讀法的一個修訂裡面本來選罷法的修訂裡面罷免不得宣傳這個部分我們以前已經刪除了現在已經可以宣傳了"},{"start":5734.093,"end":5753.813,"text":"那如果是可以宣傳的話 應該是說這個簡訊 或者說這樣一個各自的一個第一階段的取得跟處理 跟利用 你要去判斷它到底哪一個階段是違法才對啊不是說你發送簡訊就是違法 不是說你去寄送都是違法好啦 這樣我告訴你 你們國民黨抓到了嗎 你們台黨抓到了嗎 我告訴你"},{"start":5755.294,"end":5766.98,"text":"所以這個我們在立法院裡面要特別提出個人的主張裡面我都很表敬佩但是其實那個射程有時候怎麼殺都殺到你們自己人啊福哥你覺得怎麼樣?你覺得像仇人?我也不好意思回覆你啦你沒什麼說話你請回來我來請我們司法院副秘書長"},{"start":5783.377,"end":5796.276,"text":"還有請中選會今天有來因為複密中選會這個都是很專業的在這個地方就不能胡說八道"},{"start":5797.503,"end":5824.495,"text":"那我想請教幾位的就是說像這一次在野黨的朋友提出了所謂的憲判裡面整個死刑的判決是一致性的所謂的死刑公投這樣的一個案件我想請教的就是說這個到底是否屬不符合公投法然後到底是屬於重大政策的一個創制還是覆決是不是請我們中選會這個地方先表達一下看法好不好"},{"start":5825.964,"end":5839.96,"text":"包圍那所謂的創製跟覆決那簡單的講就是創製就是從無到有那覆決就是從有到無是嗎?是是 我也算不知道我現在是覺得你具體個案給含塞進去之後你看這個案到底算什麼"},{"start":5841.041,"end":5865.377,"text":"目前中選會是還沒有收到我們立法院交付的官民投票提案那如果收到以後其實這個案子喔它不會是重大政策的覆決啦你按照113年憲判第八號要求的是你這個修法都還沒有啟動當然不涉及到整個修正的具體的一個法規範那到底算不算政策的一個創制你認為呢"},{"start":5869.333,"end":5890.571,"text":"包委員 就具體的個案而言 中選會會收到我們立法院交付的公民投票提案以後啊會依照組織法的規定啊 提委員會議來處理是啦 你說這個都比較空啊 我跟你講 憲判八號裡面講的就是說你該你立法院你該去做的事情 你不做 你去丟給公投 這個其實啊"},{"start":5891.912,"end":5918.83,"text":"大法官的威嚴大義就是在講說你憲政機關你身為立法院你叫做怠惰啦那我們整個過去公投法的立法的一個目的我都覺得這一次這有一點背道而馳啦公投法本體規範本體是說老百姓提出公投的議題中選委你們要來審查嘛 對不對你們要來審查照理講實在是在審查這個老百姓提來的公投法可是啊現在問題來了"},{"start":5920.931,"end":5945.764,"text":"現在是立法院所提出來的通過交付公投的中選會到底有沒有辦法審查連我自己我都畫上一個問號我都畫上一個問號但是前這個中選會主委啊他倒是指出了兩條路啦就是說第一個中選會向行政法院提出確認訴訟或者說立法委員自己來做一個提出可是又碰到一個麻煩啦"},{"start":5946.844,"end":5972.481,"text":"這個就可能要請教來複密了就是說以現在憲法法庭目前停擺來講的話現行大法跟白人你根本就不足以來召開新法憲訴法裡面三十條第二項鎖定的平易的門檻十個嘛那你可能這個判決到最後會攔產那你中選會向法院來提出確認訴訟反而可能會比較快我不曉得這個複密署長你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":5980.799,"end":6006.886,"text":"那個謝謝委員指教那因為委員這個部分所問的他還是屬於那個大法官他們那個怎麼去認定的核心範圍這個部分我們司法行政比較不方便來回答其實有一個東西你就很方便回答了啦你說過去有很多的憲判或者說以前叫大法官會議解釋除非後面的大法官會議解釋或者憲判去修正"},{"start":6008.095,"end":6029.893,"text":"前面的大法官會或憲法法庭的一個解釋否則憲法法庭做出來的效率就等同憲法嘛不是嗎所以說啊就等同憲法啦那不管是從過去4至185號或是4至405號那這一些啊涉及到整個大法官會議的一個解釋裡面那我來看喔"},{"start":6031.485,"end":6059.357,"text":"其實都講得非常清楚了連2018年公投案就算過了司法院還是要求相關機關在審議立法的時候法律委員會還是不得抵觸憲法所以我覺得在野黨其實我在這個地方也必須要指出來就是說大法官憲判出來以後要求的是立法院來做立法的工作那立法院他不做他就說我也沒辦法做我就丟給民眾來公投"},{"start":6061.756,"end":6086.389,"text":"這個就變成說除非要解這個議題就是說真正的要推翻大法官會議的解釋本席認為只有一條路 實質修憲因為大法官會議解釋等同憲法你要把大法官會議的解釋你要把它給推翻掉的話除了大法官自己把它推翻掉以外就剩下一條路 實質修憲不是這樣子嗎 副秘書長請教"},{"start":6088.339,"end":6112.415,"text":"因為就如剛委員所提到那個釋字185還有後來的那個限訴法38條第一項他都明文規定說憲法法庭的那個判決呢他是有拘束各機關跟人民的那個效力的那所以各機關呢他有實現判決內容的義務那因此就是說當然就是說那個立法院呢他就就這個那個公投"},{"start":6112.915,"end":6139.629,"text":"他是可以做出決定說交付那個有關於重大政策的那個爭議是可以交付那個公民公投這個部分我想是屬於那個民主原則這個沒有問題只是說那個做出來的如果說是全民公投之後所創制出來的這個決定呢他最後還是要經過那個相關的那個機關做必要那個處置那這個部分呢如果說是依照剛剛那個4-185"},{"start":6142.43,"end":6158.536,"text":"還有憲訴法38條這個規定呢他都還是要遵循憲法法庭判決的這個內容的是 當然是沒有錯啦 但是所以說啊講到最後就是大家都嘎嘎唧唧啦大家都認為是公投 其實是"},{"start":6160.877,"end":6176.246,"text":"可以取代整個立法院的其實也未必啦那個除非說立法院的怠惰公投其實畢竟到最後他還是只是一個補充啦不然每天都來公投就好了最後我要請回我請那個警政署署長我要來請教你一下啦"},{"start":6179.648,"end":6190.358,"text":"所以這個罷免連署裡面有發生很多干擾連署應該你們也都很清楚啦像譬如說監控啦 燈燒啦或是說去到現場裡面去看到差不多都是"},{"start":6194.861,"end":6219.177,"text":"你看這次大家在反映的就是台中在罷免的 你就發現就是你餵的草莉啦 梨凍啦 一些條卡站在那裡那個很明顯就是實質的一個監控啦可是這個有一個很為難的地方 這跟選拔法又比較不一樣選拔法像譬如說我們在投票所 你說三十公尺你就不可以換那個對不對但問題就是說你在連署的時候 你也不可能要連署在哪一個點啊"},{"start":6220.337,"end":6248.973,"text":"這又不是像實質已經進入到所謂的在投票啦我們的選拔法那裡都有規定這是只有罷免連署而已連署我也有可能來採取要我自己來寫一張啊寫一張 你說我給他寫一張要求三十公尺 都不能有人去買這也很奇怪啦但重點就是說針對罷免連署有這些監控跟盯騷的這種情況我們警政署有沒有可能去通令各地方警察局你們要有一個指引啊"},{"start":6249.713,"end":6253.158,"text":"要去罷免連署 你說我還要勇氣把他連署下去這個國家就不正常了這個國家就不正常了你就說要罷免 我就說張署長 我就說你就不錯"},{"start":6265.353,"end":6269.534,"text":"人家要去跟他罷免,我說不可以,我們也能公開說啊我說你很壞,我就是要跟他罷免,他就有勇氣我講到勇氣的話,你除非是基於人情啦那又沒話講嘛,道德勸授、講正道,比較不要去人情但如果是什麼黑衣人啦,什麼民意代表、立委的助理、議員的助理站在那個地方,你看,你覺得真的要簽下去"},{"start":6287.978,"end":6313.089,"text":"實質上產生這種威嚇我們警政署或者我們的基層警察人員面對這一些有人去舉報的時候你們是不是應該有一個指引好 包委員就是說對於連署的這個現場就是有各種樣態嘛是啊那就是如果有牽涉到違法那我們當然就是會依法來做偵辦那如果還沒有進入到違法的這個狀況我們大概都是會勸導跟勸離啦"},{"start":6314.525,"end":6332.034,"text":"是啦,這基本的前提就是說,我們在投票,我們就自由行使我們的投票權嘛,我們要去跟人家罷免,那也是自由去行訴嘛,那其實在整個憲法的設計裡面,選舉跟罷免,那其實是權力是一樣大的啦,一樣大的,是說,你被罷免這個又過了一個階段嘛,你又過了一個階段的時候,你說行政部門每天"},{"start":6338.113,"end":6362.923,"text":"講到最後又是立法院的怠惰我們沒有辦法去把它弄得更細緻啦那但是因為法律在這個方面目前還沒有規範的時候你總是要執法嗎我們就是會排除現場的這個會干擾或影響的這個狀況那這個讓連署或者是罷免的這個過程當中只要適合符合規定的話讓他可以順利的做進行就是不要到現場的干擾"},{"start":6364.003,"end":6367.169,"text":"這個是我們警政部門應該有的 該做的事情 好不好 謝謝好 現在我們請審發會委員進行詢問"},{"start":6388.963,"end":6393.607,"text":"主席我們先請NCC中華電信我剛才聽這些前面這些委員這些質詢大家就針對這個簡訊發送的問題大概有詢問我們國家通傳會跟這個中華電信"},{"start":6413.956,"end":6438.823,"text":"那我先大概來釐清一下,因為我有一些部分我想需要釐清第一個就是說,現在我們所收到這些簡訊,不管你是商業廣告也好,或者是這些政治簡訊也好它都是透過這個簡訊代發業者,簡訊代發業者來跟我們各大電信公司來下單的一個商業行為嘛,對不對?現在是不是這樣?"},{"start":6439.463,"end":6459.705,"text":"是兩種 個人推個人 像我們一般民眾個人我們所稱P2P person to person那就不會那商業的都business to customer就會經過像現在大家這樣子大量收到的這種這種政治性簡訊或是這些商業廣告簡訊我這樣子看 我現在要釐清的就是說這個"},{"start":6462.702,"end":6491.382,"text":"這個所發送的門號我這樣聽起來好像有兩種方式一種是我簡訊代發業者我提供門號給你說請你幫我發這些是不是這樣子然後另外一種是我說我要哪一個區域因為你們有提供靜態跟動態的這個這個的服務嘛齁那這個簡訊代發服務有一種叫做靜態定位發訊以及即時動態發訊是你們有提供的服務嘛對不對那我簡訊業者提說我我希望鎖定中山大同"},{"start":6492.362,"end":6508.932,"text":"中山區跟大同區的這個發放然後之後由你們透過這個LBS的技術來發放對不對是不是這樣根本報告技術上確實有LBS但是在個案上經過我們行政調查三家都沒有提供的LBS服務所以沒有提供LBS服務"},{"start":6509.973,"end":6531.007,"text":"結果這個個案也沒有但是像我們地震等等之類的它區域型的它也是另類廣義的區域簡訊服務這種區域簡訊服務我們現在中華電信要不要講一下你們現在有沒有提供這個區域區域簡訊服務有沒有我們在區域簡訊的服務目前大概都是在比如說百貨公司或者是活動的人潮書上因為剛才我們主席吳宗憲"},{"start":6531.807,"end":6546.954,"text":"主席這邊問的就是這個啊你們現在到底有沒有提供區域簡訊服務區域簡訊服務是有提供有提供嘛LBS有提供所以這個業者所以我簡訊代發業者可以說我現在希望我鎖定松山區的門號請你們幫我發可以嗎"},{"start":6550.616,"end":6566.982,"text":"我先跟委員補充一下那個所謂的下單 事實上我們在三位簡訊的部分就網路有簡訊廣播跟簡訊特碼兩個機制那我們跟簡訊代理商那邊對 但這個就是一個契約嘛這個就是一個契約行為不管你是透過網路還是透過什麼當然不是說坐下來簽個契約才叫契約嘛"},{"start":6573.844,"end":6580.571,"text":"對 然後他前端的這一個客戶委託他去簡單講你們有沒有提供區域有沒有提供區域簡訊服務啦我們有提供區域簡訊服務那你們提供區域簡訊服務之後會不會把這些門號再回報給業者說我傳了這些不會"},{"start":6589.859,"end":6616.978,"text":"這些我業者我只知道說我今天希望你們傳給松山區但是你們傳給誰我業者不知道對不對區域檢訊服務的部分區域檢訊服務我不會回答到說你們傳了哪一些我就可以知道哪一些門號是松山區的不會嘛對不對也跟委員補充報告要提供LBS服務必須要用戶自己同意同意電信公司提供那各自的提供第三方的目的外使用要用戶自己同意"},{"start":6617.578,"end":6634.723,"text":"所以現在即使你們有提供這種區域簡訊的服務但是事實上這個發送要來跟你們希望你們發送的這個人他並不會知道得到這些訊息說哪一些門號是在這個區域裡面他可以得到這個訊息你們會回報給他說我傳了這些門號"},{"start":6639.304,"end":6658.754,"text":"會嗎?我們前進調查的結果是不會,那個報導是他的描述,事實我們調查的結果不是這樣子的不是這樣嗎?所以剛剛講的那些說什麼透過這些發放之後他就可以掌握了你今天有沒有去這個百貨公司,你今天有沒有去哪裡事實上這個發放者沒有辦法掌握,他根本不知道發給誰對不對他只知道發給這個區域的人,是不是這樣?"},{"start":6662.23,"end":6689.831,"text":"各位報的是我們不會交付任何的資料再給業者是這樣就釐清就釐清不要好像就剛剛講的好像哇這些業者這些他發了這些霸團發了之後他就可以知道哪一些人在哪裡活動哪一些人去哪裡事實上他得這個發送者得不到這個訊息而且更何況這個根據這個我們目前的電信管理法第八條的規定你們中華電信是不得拒絕傳送訊息的"},{"start":6693.031,"end":6718.39,"text":"根據第八條我今天只要這個是保障通信秘密無正當理由你們就不得拒絕發送傳遞訊息對不對是的沒錯所以吳宗憲要求你們不能發送這個訊息這樣看起來目前按照這個電信管理法第八條目前是不是屬於無正當理由我們還要再來討論對不對來"},{"start":6722.759,"end":6745.858,"text":"好來 你有講什麼話我等一下會秀給你看會秀給你看 時間給我退回去我沒有講那句話你不要亂講話 你在那邊怎麼亂引用我講的時間給我退回去 可以嗎主席沒問題 那個時間先把它中斷15秒我跟你講 我們彼此互相尊重我知道 我也是很尊重你"},{"start":6746.378,"end":6774.637,"text":"我們彼此尊重你可以質疑我講,但你不要引用我沒講的話我會引用你我沒有要叫他們不要傳簡訊啦我剛剛哪有講這句話你在我面前講我沒講過的話你剛剛說傳送這些訊息現在進來很多霸團在傳送這些訊息會讓大家掌握這些個資但我沒有講說叫他們不要傳送你不可以在我面前說我沒講的話簡單講這些團體發送者他掌握不到這些個資的個資還是在你們手上"},{"start":6776.438,"end":6793.514,"text":"你們電信業者的手上,並不在這些發送人的手上再來,我們現在齁好,主席,你就不要再跟我吵架了來,好,我等一下會講你講過的來,稍安勿躁,稍安勿躁,來好,那這個齁,我們這個依照這個各自保護法齁"},{"start":6801.411,"end":6827.914,"text":"有關第十九條之一跟第一項跟第二十條第一項他分別有規定規範有關於非公務機關對於個人資資料的這個收集跟處理十九條第一項是收集跟處理第二十條是有關這些個資的利用都有規定並且有罰則對不對罰則在第四十一條都有罰則對不對那個是沒錯好是喔對那我們剛剛講的"},{"start":6829.557,"end":6842.154,"text":"也有這個簡訊代售業者我提供門號給你請你們傳這個簡訊這些簡訊代售業者他們所收集處理利用的這些個資有沒有違反這兩條"},{"start":6844.82,"end":6872.6,"text":"我們調查個案 他是接受他的企業客戶的下單來處理所以他他這個規定來到法律明文 即便洋洋灑灑都有八款有八款有九款的規定不管是他自己或者他的企業客戶如果有違反他要負這個法律責任對對對好所以如果啦假設假設有這個這個有這個簡訊代發業者他們違反了這個那你們一定會追究他的責任對不對"},{"start":6874.109,"end":6885.354,"text":"會由相關主管機關來追究他的責任接下來下一頁主席這個就是你講過的主席要不要認證一下時間暫停讓主席認證一下這個是你講過的無中縣接著指出雖然電信業者說這是供企業商務服務使用但是什麼時候變成政治連署使用要不要處罰NCC"},{"start":6901.146,"end":6915.745,"text":"這個NCC也不見了他覺得任何事情都雙標民眾各自被拿去使用這是你說的這我講的沒有錯但是我必須在這邊講一個點我們今天對於公家機關的質詢人民對公家機關有意見我們來這邊質詢"},{"start":6917.487,"end":6939.476,"text":"結果有的人是來這裡趕快幫公家機關護航立法委員是質疑他們的點 讓他們來告訴國人哪一些東西對 哪一些東西要被懷疑 哪一些東西大家要注意不是在這裡像你 沒關係啦對 這是我講的 但是我有我的質疑點我盡到我立法委員的義務主席你至少要補一分鐘 至少要補一分鐘你講過的話就好主席你至少要補兩分鐘給"},{"start":6943.097,"end":6953.94,"text":"發會委員我說我有講過的話歡迎批評我沒有講過的話他剛剛在我面前講了我沒講的話那我如果這樣對你我現在問你這個是主席我還讓你再確認一下是不是你講過的話嘛對不對好來下一頁好請繼續下一頁我吼我因為答到今天的題目吼"},{"start":6966.365,"end":6994.304,"text":"我們也拿不到個資 我們也收集不到什麼所以我就把我們的助理全部集合啦齁大家把那個簡訊齁自己收過的政治簡訊 大家回溯一直看看看這個都是我助理 我自己跟我的助理以前在自己現在還在手機裡面收過的這些政治性簡訊啦齁這個給大家看一下 有關罷免的部分就是今天我們主席排這個主題的齁就是2016年這個蔡正元的罷免案的時候"},{"start":6995.327,"end":7008.201,"text":"蔡正元所發的轉發通知請共同拒絕2月14日的罷免來再來等一下等一下我先我在說明這個之前我先跟大家報告一件事情"},{"start":7010.339,"end":7032.049,"text":"有關於宣傳罷免到底是合法還是不合法這個其實非常清楚啦因為在2016年的時候對不起,現在請法務部上來好了這個是法務部選罷法應該是內政部中選會今天有來嗎中選會來中選會,對不起,部長不好意思"},{"start":7039.428,"end":7065.471,"text":"我們在2016年11月29立法院刪除通過了選罷法第86條第三項本來有規定說除了徵求連署之必要活動之外不得有其他鼓吹罷免或阻止罷免的宣傳活動這一條是不是刪除了現在是可以宣傳的"},{"start":7066.127,"end":7091.283,"text":"支持或反對罷免案都可以宣傳不管你宣傳罷免鼓勵罷免他過去是用鼓動鼓動罷免或者是這個宣傳阻止罷免的宣傳活動都是合法的嘛對不對都是合法跟選舉活動一樣是合法的對不對從事支持或反對罷免案的宣傳宣傳都跟選舉的宣傳一樣都是合法的對不對法律允許的對好謝謝好"},{"start":7093.228,"end":7118.536,"text":"所以我現在我來講這個我沒有講說我這個到底是不是合法的這個就是我們我們今天主席排這個案子就是因為他認為這些有疑慮所以我來看看有疑慮的來下一個這個是王浩宇罷免案的時候這個滷蛋快報這個滷蛋滷蛋快報的滷蛋是誰這個這個這個大家看來這個明天1月16號霸王任務懇請大家站出來投票好下一個"},{"start":7120.755,"end":7148.174,"text":"來有關選舉的選舉罷免的這個是中國國民黨台北市黨部發的總統選舉請集中支持3號侯康佩政黨票投9號中國國民黨立法委員打打打張世剛游殊惠打打打來下一個來各位好朋友這蔣萬安發的台北市長蔣萬安親自發的政治性簡訊各位好友侯友宜台北市團結造勢大會定於11月6日4號下午2點半在台北市政府警區歡迎參加來下一個"},{"start":7150.565,"end":7173.244,"text":"來,這是我們本院同仁齁,這個週六上午十點,大安立委候選人總統會議員,歡迎共襄盛舉,這羅志強的來,下一個來,各位好朋友,明天就是投票日,請您一定要來,這也是我們的同仁齁,侯孟凱的來,下一個來,感謝您的支持,讓習近,台北市議會議長齁,帶習近,讓習近能夠連任第五屆議員的這個是不是商業的還是政治性的,來,下一個"},{"start":7174.826,"end":7202.117,"text":"告急這個新北市議員選情告急,明天投票懇請相親來,下一個來,這個台北市議員向您告急這個是政治性選情還是商業簡訊,下一個齊獨市市議員問政品質服務,懇請支持我念不完啦,我念不完各位啊這個是什麼,這個不是雙標什麼是雙標現在合法的,我剛剛講"},{"start":7204.329,"end":7224.875,"text":"這個選罷法已經修改了現在宣傳罷免鼓吹罷免是合法的那發這個合法的簡訊跟這個政治的簡訊過去發了這麼多都沒有都沒問題今天不過說一個合法的宣傳罷免就拿來這裡辦專案會議然後來引設含沙射影說好像這個罷免這個是違法的為什麼不辦為什麼不辦要辦剛剛我說所列出來全部一起辦好不好以上"},{"start":7237.423,"end":7256.344,"text":"好我們先宣告締約委員提出臨時提案那我們依照本會往例在執行本會委員範圍告一段落後依據上午11點處理那如果到時候有委員正在詢答該位委員詢答完畢之後就進行處理臨時提案好"},{"start":7257.318,"end":7283.721,"text":"那個 曾委員 我們委員彼此尊重啦我只是對你剛剛說我沒有講過的話 我有意見這一句那其他我都沒有意見對於社會事實 認定合法不合法 過往怎麼樣我都沒意見謝謝主席的指教 謝謝你只要不要講我 我沒講過話 硬說我有講我只對這個 其他我都非常尊重你我時間有倒退回去啦 謝謝那下一位我們請吳思瑤委員發言"},{"start":7289.721,"end":7292.809,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請鄭部長好 麻煩鄭部長中選會好 中選會委員長"},{"start":7301.313,"end":7325.967,"text":"早安大家辛苦了今天我們專案報告的主題是民眾反映收到罷免聯署簡訊顯非商業廣告目的之運用質疑個資洩漏而侵害人民權益我尊重召委的排案權但是呢我更認為如果今天要列這個主題你至少要並另外一個主題"},{"start":7327.128,"end":7350.673,"text":"譬如說也是社會各界更重視的主題也是影響的範圍更大的也就是我建議今天的專案報告應當題目是就民眾反映國民黨執政縣市濫用戶政系統個資進行偽造罷免連署嚴重侵害人民權益專案報告我認為專案報告應當是我現在說的這個題目"},{"start":7356.089,"end":7377.679,"text":"因為司法調查證據已經非常明確國民黨不管是在基隆或者是在花蓮都發生了公務體系地方政府濫用政府的系統的資訊來進行惡霸或者是向人民查水表"},{"start":7378.908,"end":7406.387,"text":"我進入我的PPT之前 我也要說我現在看到的臨時提案喔是徐欣穎委員這邊 翁曉琳委員這邊 招委也有連署也就是呢 為了守護人民的隱私權 確保選罷法制度選罷制度之正當性與民主機制之信任基礎要求NCC法務部中選會及個人資料保護委員會籌備處要立即來成立專案調查小組"},{"start":7407.268,"end":7414.273,"text":"就罷免簡訊的名單來源傳送機制涉及各自處理流程等進行全面調查"},{"start":7415.871,"end":7440.093,"text":"如果這個臨時提案要通過的話那應當針對剛剛審發會委員列出一托拉庫國民黨的委員在選舉的期間不管是縣市首長或是地方選立委或是議員的也都利用簡訊系統去敗票 去催票如果國民黨的委員要提這個臨時提案"},{"start":7442.099,"end":7456.389,"text":"就公平嘛剛剛這一拖拉扣的如果針對罷免的簡訊名單來源傳送機制就要被查的話那剛剛那些查不查部長你覺得呢"},{"start":7459.386,"end":7481.814,"text":"這個有沒有成立那個只要有人告發那我們就會依法來處理那是不是說收到簡訊是不是成立犯罪像這個剛剛有提到就個資的問題那這個個人資料依據那個個資保護法第二條說用此他個人資料是自然人而且包括什麼醫療等連絡方式得以"},{"start":7482.654,"end":7502.549,"text":"直接間接識別該個人資料如果說只是單純電話碼他沒辦法識別這王某某所有或詹某所有亂槍打擾式的發簡訊那是不是成為各自的一個我們是還是有再嚴厲的沒有錯嘛他不是指名道姓傳給吳思瑤你怎樣你怎樣他可能就是"},{"start":7503.61,"end":7518.448,"text":"像剛剛收集到很多名單就傳出去直接說王某某你好所以這可能就比較接近我們各自的問題我進入我的主題憲法保障人民的基本權利憲法22條規範"},{"start":7520.771,"end":7541.333,"text":"而大法官釋字第603號又再一次確認了個資以及隱私權就是憲法22條所保障的當然我們也因應111年宪判第13號對於個人資料保護的獨立監督機制國家的政策需要更強大的配套下一頁"},{"start":7542.054,"end":7559.066,"text":"所以說呢執政團隊負責任執政團隊撥破房因應大法官給出來的三年期限我們要修法所以個人資料保護法經濟委員會這週四就要逐條審查我們在法制面要健全它要補強它"},{"start":7560.768,"end":7577.314,"text":"而大法官要求的個人資料保護委員會要有一個專責的監督單位所以我們會用一個組織法的方式未來中瑞雄委員在私委會應當也會排案所以一個立法委員要做的是這麼在乎個人資料保護"},{"start":7578.354,"end":7590.908,"text":"那麼趕快從法治健全的修法跟立法來著手現在的執政黨的版本要修各自法建立各自事故通報與應變義務機制設置個人資料保護長明定角色的獨立性"},{"start":7596.855,"end":7625.729,"text":"非公務機關收集個資需要定期取得授權建立公務機關與非公務機關之間的監督與集合制度還有最後一項要規劃監管權限的整合與過渡期的機制我們要從法制面去完整它如果今天教委所排的這個題目對於這個簡訊的發送到底是商業非商業怎麼收集而來我認為未來的個人資料保護法在修法的過程我們可以更進一步的健全它"},{"start":7626.329,"end":7640.654,"text":"更進一步的去討論它譬如說非公務機關收集個資要定期取得授權的這個部分就有很多可以討論的嘛部長你同意我的主張吧這個法制的完備我想更能夠保護那個個人的個人資料下一頁如果要說誰濫用個資國民黨實在是第一名啦叫國民黨第一名啦針對霸團的"},{"start":7655.925,"end":7675.353,"text":"負責人這個鬧得沸沸揚揚這個阿美啊她不只被公佈了本名她的行業她的公司都被國民黨黨中央用記者會的方式用黨機器來肉搜公民請問這有沒有違反個人資料的保護啊部長"},{"start":7678.341,"end":7706.317,"text":"這部分如果又有告發告訴那這邊我們檢討會但是不是就構成了這個事實這個還是要有好個人來告發再來認定但是這就非常清楚的是未經他人同意把他的真實姓名行業對外公告我認為這就明確的違法了下一頁國民黨做賊喊抓賊洩露個資最佳一級的是濫用"},{"start":7707.552,"end":7733.718,"text":"市府的資源行政不中立所以基隆的案件呢這個民政處長呢40萬交保他自己也辭職了因為動用了公家資源調出了戶政系統的個人資料去幫忙作為造假連署這個法院已經認證了是誰違法呢是郭明棟在基隆"},{"start":7737.489,"end":7755.789,"text":"有沒有往上延燒因為這個民政處長呢他隱匿共犯隱匿完整犯罪情節很可能有串供之語很可能向上延燒會不會燒到基隆市的大家長或是國民黨的任何人不知道證據到哪裡就辦到哪裡我支持檢調查辦下一頁"},{"start":7757.97,"end":7776.693,"text":"而花蓮一樣 這個民政處長也辭職了他也遭地檢署來起訴因為濫用花蓮縣府的戶政系統去對罷團有連署的公民來查水表"},{"start":7778.074,"end":7798.586,"text":"這個也違反個資所以司法認證是誰在盜用人民的個資叫罪中國國民黨 下一頁而我也非常的難以相信就是國民黨的立法委員 葉委員他居然可以在節目上說呢說這個明良珍啊 就是花蓮縣府的這個民政處長啊"},{"start":7805.26,"end":7821.81,"text":"葉元之說就他看來從頭到尾這個明良真沒有洩露什麼個資啊因為這個個資本來就在他手上就在花蓮縣政府就在民政系統的手上啊這個個資本來就是他所有的啊所以呢花蓮縣府拿這個個資"},{"start":7823.655,"end":7837.389,"text":"去做不該做的事是要批判但是葉元之認為從頭到尾花蓮縣府沒有洩漏個資因為這個個資本來就在花蓮縣政府的手上也就是把公民的個人資料當作他的私有產物"},{"start":7839.371,"end":7856.07,"text":"當作他的私有權可以動用可以濫用道用有理 挪用無罪這就是中國國民黨的委員到底是法盲還是文盲啊法律看不懂還是法律認知大有問題啊今天還有一個最新的案子"},{"start":7857.563,"end":7881.45,"text":"花蓮又爆發了某一位 他沒有居住在花蓮他是數年前到花蓮遊玩 有去租車公司 租了一台車結果呢 他最近收到了 在調查郭台銘總統連署案他居然他的個資被拿去 他沒有要連署支持郭台銘參選總統 可是他被拿去用了"},{"start":7882.749,"end":7903.045,"text":"這就是現在發生的在國民黨及國民黨相關系統不管是總統副總統的選舉連署或者是惡霸亂霸的連署盜用濫用人民的個資第一名的叫做中國國民黨所以今天周偉的排案我認為非常的選擇性啊"},{"start":7905.253,"end":7927.224,"text":"應當專案報告成為我剛剛的題目才對啊應當好好來研析一下啊國民黨執政縣市濫用戶政系統各自進行偽造罷免連署嚴重傷害人民權益這不就才應當是今天召委排案的主題嗎如果你要討論這個簡訊傳送也可以啊至少要併案啊怎麼這麼選擇性這麼不公正呢"},{"start":7932.698,"end":7957.836,"text":"違法的事證這麼明確的不敢問不敢探究護航自己人我說一次再說一次針對所謂的簡訊的使用請在野黨的委員好好在個人資料保護法裡面的法治健全的討論我們好好來研習法律在未來的要成立專責機關我們好好就法治面去探討"},{"start":7959.062,"end":7968.353,"text":"而不是來做這種個案的操作做這種政治的操作我認為這非常有違立法委員的專業性公平性"},{"start":7969.758,"end":7998.695,"text":"今天不好意思後面題目時間到了沒有辦法讓大家回答我們繼續努力我再一次說任何的個案尊重司法偵辦勿妄勿縱司法案件的核心是證據而不是政治司法核心是在證據而不是政治請所有的從政者都應當有這樣基本的法制態度正確的解讀好辛苦大家謝謝"},{"start":8001.698,"end":8028.146,"text":"好謝謝那我們下一位我們先做一程程序報告稍後在張綺凱委員詢問完畢後休息五分鐘那我們接著請陳培宇委員發言好謝謝主席那我想先請NCC謝謝麻煩NCC"},{"start":8033.283,"end":8059.551,"text":"好 謝謝NCC我想今天的這個題目我覺得要先幫人民定義一件事情因為這個相關的資料我們可以看到在相關的新聞中電信三雄犧牲否認洩露個資據我看相關的新聞報導事實上相關的應用其實在3G的年代三大業縣是不是就接受NCC的監督認為相關的業務是不得已在電信公司裡面進行的我想要請您先說明一下"},{"start":8060.279,"end":8075.646,"text":"是的 因為電信業者本來就是NCE所下管的業者那我們都在各自法的法尊上我們也有依據各自法27條定有安慰辦法來請他們來落實這些各自維護相關事項"},{"start":8076.246,"end":8092.84,"text":"好 所以截至目前為止這還是你們的轄管業務內容 對嗎所以如果他們真的有做出疑似洩露個資的行為其實NCC你們會第一時間去進行調查包含主席今天排的這個案子其實當時你們已經進行調查我們看到相關業務報告 對嗎對 已經進行調查5月3號批落出來5月5號 5月9號都有兩次來找他們來做行政調查那預計什麼時候會公佈相關調查報告"},{"start":8101.07,"end":8126.445,"text":"電話已經調查告一段落我們也把相關的資料函送給相關機關做是否有違反各自的一些請他們處處簡單來講就是說這個簡訊的發送的流程裡頭最源頭端的簡訊代發業者的企客然後簡訊代發業者然後再來三大電信公司然後再達一般用戶那NCG能夠管的範圍是針對三就是三大電信這一塊我們做行政調查"},{"start":8127.085,"end":8141.021,"text":"那另外代發業者跟代發業者企客那是有相關主管機關來處理因為他一個是資訊服務業者另外一個是行銷公司那個不在NCC的作用法能夠守管家範圍內好 謝謝您說得非常的清楚"},{"start":8142.382,"end":8170.272,"text":"三大電信歸NCC管理人們已經做了相關調查可是所謂代發業者或是簡訊代理公司或是說廣告行銷商他們的相關業務就不歸你們管轄所以我們可不可以定義這一次也就是主席特地排案這個事件它比較接近哪一個樣態比較接近是廣告代理商的議題還是是在三大電信這邊請您再次的說明就我們完整今天調查的結果它的問題應該是出現在最上有端或者最上有端"},{"start":8171.352,"end":8189.916,"text":"簡訊代發業的企業用戶那邊他們為什麼會有這些個資資料是那一塊的部分好 那這一塊其實就是國人最擔心的疑慮也就是說我們可能在非常多地方消費我們都會留下所謂會員資料或者是像我自己的小孩他可能他的學校資料就曾經被一些補習班拿去用"},{"start":8190.296,"end":8214.7,"text":"其實過往到底在民間的這些所謂商業服務公司如何使用我們每一個人的個資其實樣態是不清楚的可是確實如果收到相關的簡訊是會讓人擔心的那剛剛王逸川委員其實也有提醒到這一塊我們往下看下一張我可不可以請NCC跟我們說明到底我們身為一般消費者我就是一個不管是哪一個電信公司的門號使用者消費者我有沒有拒絕像這樣簡訊的權利有 這個"},{"start":8217.961,"end":8247.227,"text":"一般民眾他如果要做電信公司提供LBS服務他必須要電信公司要問他說你同不同意我提供你LBS服務他同意的話他才會提供這個服務好那我們有沒有在過往的相關業務當中提醒民眾我們在申辦電信門號或者是當我電信門號已經使用超過一段時間我認為這個LBS的訊息確實讓我感到困擾的時候我可以做後續的主張就是如同您剛說的有這個而且他能隨時跟up in跟up out就是說隨時可以去申請跟電信公司申請的"},{"start":8247.867,"end":8274.758,"text":"好 如果真的像您所說的我認為加強宣導應該很重要但是至於另外一個部分就是廣告代理公司的部分或者是其他廣告代理商的部分那個是另外一個議題我覺得比較困擾但是我還是要提醒NCC我們到底可不可以舉一些例子來幫我們說明就一般民眾的角度來說什麼樣的簡訊有可能是三大電信那邊發出來的而什麼樣的簡訊比較像是廣告代理公司發出來的您可不可以幫我們做"},{"start":8275.538,"end":8296.963,"text":"科普性的說明讓一般消費者知道我今天如果收到一個簡訊不管它是政治類的非政治類的我要怎麼判斷它是來自三大電信公司的議題或者是來自所謂廣告代理公司的問題是從技術面來看民眾所有的簡訊都是電信公司發的但是它只是都是透明化的一個傳送就是跟電信管理法第八條一樣"},{"start":8297.423,"end":8311.688,"text":"是那源頭端對發送的人通常都不會是三大電信公司除非是三大電信公司自己的促銷方案對例如說哪一家公司有什麼促銷方案這個可能是三大電信公司用所謂內部客戶的資料去發這個簡訊但是你的"},{"start":8313.949,"end":8341.282,"text":"所以如同您的意思是說大部分的廣告簡訊或者是我們今天要談的這所謂政治類的簡訊極有可能比較多大部分應該是所謂廣告代理公司啊行銷公司啊公安公司他們不知道什麼情況下拿到了我們每一個人的個資然後透過他們的透過三大電信的這個發送的管道發送出去比較像是這樣對大部分情況是這樣好但因為這又不是你們夜館的嘛對不對對那源頭段他資料收集是他要自己要負責任他有違反應該是相關主管機關來處理"},{"start":8342.523,"end":8363.33,"text":"好但是如果是這樣我覺得回到所謂如果有三大電信這一端所出去的我覺得就是要再次拜託NCC可以再加強宣導對於一般使用者來說我確實是可以直接去要求這些電信公司不可以用我的資料然後或者是說我不想收到所謂LBS簡訊這個是我們可以再次加強宣導跟推廣的對不對"},{"start":8364.47,"end":8386.381,"text":"會的 我們去年也有修改他們定型文化服務契約37條有規定說各自宣告事項一定要告訴說各種太陽然後他商業簡訊的服務他民眾也可以隨時選擇退出的一個權利好 這個部分我們希望看到你們更清楚的廣告文宣我不過很確定一下你們那個廣告文宣費有沒有被刪"},{"start":8390.142,"end":8412.427,"text":"我們這一塊的費用有些是在基金那邊目前還可以那我們希望看到更多你們對於一般民眾加強推廣然後我覺得也可以減少大家收到相關簡訊的疑慮好不好我認為增加很多社會溝通除了政治議題上增加很多社會溝通絕對是必要的好嗎好 謝謝那接下來我要回到兒少議題我要拜託警政署 謝謝那NCT這邊請回 謝謝"},{"start":8418.291,"end":8438.203,"text":"好 我們關心政治議題 關心政治困境我們也要關心家長所擔心的在整個週末 所有的社群 家長社群都炸鍋了就是在台北 新北 高雄 好像連桃園也有有所謂中國直播主在國小外面拍攝所引起的爭議跟擔心我不知道警政署這邊有沒有講過相關進度跟資料"},{"start":8440.004,"end":8456.299,"text":"有掌握 可不可以說明一下目前我們掌握到就是高雄有一件就是對於這個直播組的一個相關拍攝行為那經過查證這一件事沒有牽涉到拍攝到血統的這種狀況所以這件事沒有成案的"},{"start":8457.06,"end":8481.655,"text":"那第二案就是在台北市所以等一下你們成案的標準叫做有沒有拍攝到小孩的臉這樣嗎對對對所以他整個直播的片段你們全部都看完一個小孩的臉都沒有拍到這個案就是他沒有對於這樣的一個行為正過調查之後沒有涉嫌違法拜託警政署我們講白話文給一般民眾聽啦就是這一件我剛剛家長在意的是小孩的臉有沒有被拍到然後被不當的應用"},{"start":8483.016,"end":8505.096,"text":"這一件事沒有做被不當的運用那第二件事有第二件事發生在台北市的這一間的一個民生國小門口嗎對 是民生國小這一間是有拍攝到這些血統的這些相關的這個樣態那這個樣態裡面是有違反有違反這個兒童及少年這個權利保護法兒少權法兒少法"},{"start":8505.556,"end":8534.297,"text":"也有違反這個個資保護法也有違反這些刑法的妨礙秘密所以這個案子我們這個案子我們依這個三個法例來做移送來移送法判好所以你們這邊已經有在進行了有進行了移送法判好太好了那高雄呢這一件這一件經過調查的結果是沒有高雄新北那新北呢目前新北我沒有還沒有接到這個訊息還沒有接到訊息可是網路上那個警政署你看一下連我在網路上都找得到"},{"start":8535.561,"end":8551.027,"text":"那是去年11月的這個事情這個部分應該這個案也是沒有違法的事證也是沒有違法這個是你們後續很快的幫忙做出讓家長安心的動作非常謝謝你們的回應我再次跟您強調你們會以違反兒少權法違反個資法違反妨害秘密是做相關的處理對嗎好那我們後續如何防備這個"},{"start":8559.531,"end":8581.778,"text":"那對於這個部分因為學校的這個地方也是我們這個警察這個一個安全委員會的這個地點我們會加長這些巡邏的這個密度那會加長這樣的一個跟學校的一個聯繫聯繫看有沒有這樣的一個這個情形所以他是地方派出所的派出所基層同仁要負責在門口巡嗎每天上學時間嗎應該都是會有應該會是會有會有這個編排的情路"},{"start":8585.839,"end":8606.497,"text":"我要幫基層同仁就是上學跟下學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學放學"},{"start":8611.061,"end":8633.426,"text":"或者是路人或者是老師發現在孩子們上學跟放學的時候有奇怪的人在門口做出奇怪的直播我們其實可以打電話到派出所或報警請求相關協助進行現場的蒐證跟處理我可以這樣公開呼籲嗎可以明天好那就請您幫我們重述一遍讓我們的家長因為家長社群在週末真的是炸鍋了"},{"start":8633.626,"end":8662.804,"text":"好如果說有這一些這個非法收集這些拍攝的這些的這個行為絕等的這些行為請立即打電話到110或小區的拍手來報案我們會到場來做處理好那其實大家也會擔心國安的議題但因為時間有限我今天國安就沒有辦法再多說但是至少警政署在這一塊非常做出非常明快的處理我們也謝謝警政署在這邊然後也謝謝基層同仁非常非常辛苦好謝謝那接下來有請"},{"start":8664.647,"end":8665.288,"text":"各自處謝謝那這邊請回請再處請回謝謝"},{"start":8675.216,"end":8700.612,"text":"好 您好 各自處這邊 我們跟你討論一下其實我們之前就因為單項教練證的問題跟你們開過會 也跟法務部開過會但是因為它牽扯到各自的問題所以我今天比較多時間想要跟您討論相關法律見解目前因為運動部在九月即將掛牌而未來台灣會有一個所謂全民運動署也就是更多校園的運動它可能會延伸到社區裡面"},{"start":8701.152,"end":8724.395,"text":"非常多孩子们练习运动的场域也会从校园的体育队体育班到社区里面的社区俱乐部所以我们可以想见未来会有更多的教练进到社区里面为孩子提供服务跟教学但同时我们也担心可能很多非法的样态就会从学校扩散到社区里面我们提早做出预防因为确实过去有非常多的案例"},{"start":8724.875,"end":8742.759,"text":"在相關的討論當中我們跟你們討論就是來看下一張體育署在相關的查詢網站當中如果我今天想要去查陳培瑜這個足球教練他過往有沒有對小孩做出不法的事情不管是性侵體罰不當對待之類等等的犯罪行為體育署的網站是說這個樣態他其實是查不到的他說要請家長回到單項協會如果我去單項協會的網站上看例如說陳培瑜是曾經是足球教練"},{"start":8751.741,"end":8774.689,"text":"如果陳培宇有了犯罪行為陳培宇的名字就會從足球單項協會的教練證名字被下架我們認為這樣是消極的我們辦公室主張一直以來我們也跟非常多兒權團體主張教練如果他犯了相關尤其是對小孩不當對待這些罪法而且終局判決已經決定了他應該名字要被留在"},{"start":8776.429,"end":8801.94,"text":"單項協會或者是體育署的網站上讓家長知道這個人他不是只有被下架他曾經做過對孩子們傷害的行為當時體育署的說法說這有個資的問題所以我們就跟個資處這邊開了會你們的法律見解告訴我們在個資保護法16條第二款裡面增進公共利益的部分我們就可以主張使用這樣的資料所以我們看到今年高雄市政府非常有 guts"},{"start":8802.6,"end":8826.849,"text":"他們收到了體育署的公文在2024年7月16號他們就公告了非常多對孩子有不當對待人的名字而且是哪一項教練然後他的全名全文公告出來我認為這個是非常積極的對社區運動對於家長對於孩子的保護但是未來我不知道我們可不可以繼續主張我們認為像高雄市政府這樣做才是對的"},{"start":8827.589,"end":8853.01,"text":"還是要回到我的投影片的左手邊體育署認為基於保護這些教練的個資他們的這個樣態不可以被公告我想要聽聽看你們的法律見解委員就是我們先前幾次委員多次開這個協調會我們表達的意見就是說因為他是一個政府資訊那因為依照我們目前的這個司法實務見解就是說政府資訊裡面他雖然含有個人資料"},{"start":8853.39,"end":8873.738,"text":"那因為它是一個政府資訊公開法有一個明文規定所以會依照就是個資法16條第一款它是屬於法律明文規定的情況那所以它所有的這個包含它的公開提供或是它的限制都會回到政府資訊公開法相關的規定那因為政資法的18條的第一項第六款"},{"start":8874.178,"end":8901.686,"text":"他其實針對說如果有政府資訊的公開或提供有侵害個人隱私的話應限制公開或不予提供但是對公益有必要的話他還是可以去對外提供那至於對公益有必要跟這個個人隱私之間他到底這個公益跟私益的權衡這是要由這個政府資訊的保有機關也就是教育部體育署這邊他可以去做個案的權衡就是他去權衡這個公益跟私益那還是有這樣的一個"},{"start":8902.766,"end":8929.874,"text":"機制可以去做一個公開好所以聽起來其實他並不是只能指向某一端去解釋這件事情看起來他必須從個案來看去做權衡那聽起來我覺得體育署也好或者是各自處這邊有不同的法律見解不過我想我今天之所以公開質詢是希望我們辦公室後續在這一題我們會積極推進到時候也要拜託各自處這邊持續提供給我們法律見解跟意見然後讓我們再跟體育署溝通或者是到時候可能也會有法務部的角色"},{"start":8930.454,"end":8945.259,"text":"協助我們在保護兒少這一塊我們可以做得更積極如同高雄市政府所做出那個公文這樣好嗎是好謝謝主席謝謝各支處謝謝主席跟我想找朋友的話好謝謝中華電信有來對不對好拜託一下好這個是公益的事情謝謝"},{"start":8947.079,"end":8973.434,"text":"主席我問的都很公益謝謝主席感謝中華電信在去年前任董事長有喊出要經費加碼四成我想只是要跟您確定一下今年換了董總之後對女藍的支持還是會繼續嗎是因為我現在服務金門跟馬祖其實過往我們有所謂的城鄉回饋到社區裡面去我們希望後續有更多機會WSB打完之後後續有公益列車規劃可以到更多偏鄉服務更多的孩子好不好"},{"start":8974.354,"end":8995.923,"text":"我們一起來努力促成謝謝中華電影謝謝主席謝謝陳委員我們先做宣告先前預告11點處理的臨時提案後來提案能撤回提案做以上說明那我這邊要補充一下因為剛剛有委員說我們今天的議程怎麼沒有加入那個"},{"start":8998.104,"end":9012.622,"text":"就是某些縣市然後有使用各自的問題我想因為我們今天的議程還是限縮在在這個簡訊的發送如果說對於那一塊有的話那當然就是看莊瑞雄委員或這邊將來有沒有要"},{"start":9013.263,"end":9034.703,"text":"要再排這個專案報告或是公聽會等等的那個我們當然是之後但是因為他沒有在今天本日的議程內所以跟大家先說明一下剛剛有委員的詢問第二個就是有關今天的這個議題其實是這樣就跟各位行政機關以及中華電信的那個同仁報告一下"},{"start":9035.163,"end":9053.116,"text":"我覺得就是因為社會上面對一些事情民眾會有質疑嘛那我們的工作就是把質疑帶到這裡來跟大家詢問那當然如果可以經過政府部門或者是三大業者的說明之後我們可以得到滿意的答案或人民可以適宜的話其實這就是我們今天舉辦這一場的一個"},{"start":9055.498,"end":9082.528,"text":"的目的所在嘛 並不是說今天一定要追究誰的責任或怎麼樣 但我們要釐清那我也很認同剛剛吳思耀委員說 他說其實到底是公益那個商業使用或是政治使用他這個將來也是可以去釐清 然後釐清之後我們可以做規定上面的修正或是法律上面的修正因為當初的訂定比較沒有那麼明確所以當民眾他在中華電信的那定型化契約上面 他簽名的時候"},{"start":9083.348,"end":9100.977,"text":"以為是商務使用他授權給你商務使用但是我怎麼收到一些政治的訊息有一些人就會不滿那這一塊是不是我們就可以當作將來修法或修改契約時候的一個依據所以這就是我們今天的目的而不是說在這裡互相政治攻擊或說"},{"start":9101.997,"end":9118.992,"text":"國民黨以前也幹過民進黨以前也幹過我覺得這反而不是今天會議的主軸啦我在這邊跟各位報告一下因為我們都希望國家更好希望人民更不要擔心各自被使用所以我們今天大家來集思廣益然後去做將來的一些修正如果說今天"},{"start":9120.274,"end":9139.117,"text":"這被認定是政治使用已經超過當初中華電信的定型化企業的範圍的話那定型化企業是不是就可以把它寫得更明確一點或是可以排除掉什麼那我知道NC是管三大業者那三大業者又有社會企業的社會責任去管那些簡訊待發的公司嘛"},{"start":9139.457,"end":9152.283,"text":"那我們只是希望利用今天的時間把大家聚集在一起然後把一些問題點出來然後大家一起討論就這樣我想說立法院應該是這樣來而不是罵來罵去或政治攻擊這樣好謝謝各位好那我們下一位請張琦凱委員發言"},{"start":9180.461,"end":9189.689,"text":"請司法院的王副秘書長還有法務部的鄭部長麻煩鄭部長今天叫他局長請假請吳副局長副局長對啊 民進黨的吳思堯 我也強調說辦案啊不能夠選擇性辦案一定要公正跟公平"},{"start":9207.83,"end":9235.08,"text":"那我的了解中選會這次罷免這個連署罷免民進黨的移送了16個案子罷免國民黨的移送了15個案子16比15結果從數量上來看國民黨大概辦了每個案都辦了而且大搜索又大收押民進黨現在只辦了兩個案子馬上就請回了不定 我先請到不定從質跟量"},{"start":9236.811,"end":9246.591,"text":"辦國民黨是這樣辦的大收手大收押然後民進黨是這樣辦這個符合剛剛吳思瑤說的沒有譴責性辦案是公正公平的嗎"},{"start":9247.826,"end":9276.221,"text":"我想檢查在我相信檢查在判案就是依照證據證據來認定犯罪事實那我也尊重檢查對個案的一個偵查規劃我們不能夠用就是辦哪個黨派幾件或哪個黨派幾件來去衡量就是說這個司法判案是有雙標所以我們還回到個案的犯罪情節跟整個證據不一樣所以這個委員是講說這部分我是不同意啦"},{"start":9277.303,"end":9298.208,"text":"你最少嘛 就是中選會送過去了罷免國民黨那幾個案子啊 十五個案子啊光是那個進度啊 你就沒辦法跟人民交代啦你國民黨雷厉風情 幾乎每天一個案子一個人在辦民進黨你十五個案子丟在那裡我委員跟人不清楚喔 這個案件是要看證據的啦不是說看人家給他辦幾個啦那中選會嚴重失職喔 中選會沒有證據他為什麼要移送十五個案子過去那裡你是要打臉中選會嗎"},{"start":9305.158,"end":9314.424,"text":"這個我沒有答 這個中選會就是你是在搭理中選會嗎因為中選不是辦案單位嘛所以不會辦案機關所以他給辦案機關來一個告發那有辦案機關 只有個案來證據的蒐集然後做一個認定 偵查規約來做一個辦案所以這個並沒有矛盾啊有沒有選擇性辦案 有沒有辦男不辦女人民眼睛是雪亮的 我剛剛講得過清楚了那你看"},{"start":9331.374,"end":9344.824,"text":"明天就是賴總統就職一週年了也是你當法務部長一年了老講不光彩賴總統的滿意度今天聯合報最新的剛剛公佈的不滿意度高達53%這個是我們從1997年明顯總統以來從李登輝開始五年來總統民調最低的前幾天TPPS的民調也很嚴重"},{"start":9362.148,"end":9390.608,"text":"不滿意的不滿意度啊比聯合報做得還高55%耶今天我特別要問的大家知道嗎TBS做的民調啊人民最不滿的就是司法改革崩盤法定你先休息一下我先請教司法院的司法院長久也是受到尊敬的啊可是最近這一兩年沒有發現整個那個每次那個民調裡面"},{"start":9393.3,"end":9403.209,"text":"司法體系從司法減掉受到人民很多的質疑富民你看看不滿意度高達58%滿意的人才30會不會覺得很不民主臉上無光你們有沒有做一些檢討"},{"start":9416.175,"end":9426.894,"text":"你之前檢討的是中文字嘛對不對那個案對中方那個案子嘛對不對其實最近案子真的還不少我現在TBS公佈完已經兩三天了嘛你司法院內部應該沒有再檢討嗎"},{"start":9430.659,"end":9444.025,"text":"報告委員其實我們司法同仁大部分司法同仁都非常認真敬業這幾年負擔非常大因為案件成長非常多我們的同仁也必須要鼓勵士氣我想這個民調"},{"start":9447.106,"end":9470.762,"text":"因為這個原因沒有分析嘛就是說他很有可能是因為近期己見就是那個被判有罪那個被告潛逃啊這個部分因為民眾會有那個近期印象那我想這部分我們司法院確實就如之前所說的我們確實是應該要那個深自檢討對我們希望深自檢討然後找出一些答案做一些改革好不好你先來我請我請這部長是複密說他們司法院有深自在檢討發不播有做了一些檢討嗎"},{"start":9477.354,"end":9493.263,"text":"我們希望我們都相信檢查債辦案都是依法公正安全按照證據來認定犯罪事實那回應民眾的一個期待那我想這個整個一個民調都是任何的民調我們都是會做一個"},{"start":9494.413,"end":9500.756,"text":"我們現在嚴重的就是最近社會不是像今天在看TV的事情最近社會有很多的民調大家對檢調都搖頭啦你看政治 我們是民主社會啊你看民進黨去辦那個下鄉叫什麼 人民是頭家 人民當家頭家已經死了"},{"start":9513.203,"end":9526.735,"text":"不是跟TBS 你看TBS不滿意五成八滿意的才三十因為我不曉得我們那個委員是哪個案件我們不應該辦啦因為我也不曉得啦那我覺得我們現在就是用這個方法去辦啦跟他一個罷免的連署大家就害怕了你又不知道要對一個案來來來"},{"start":9532.22,"end":9548.105,"text":"你說案子可多你要問我哪一個案子你光是柯文哲最近那個我們不要再談個案你不談個案你問我哪一個案子對啊案子可多咧剛剛負面都還知道說有中文字這個案子人家也知道某些重大案子要去反省對不對"},{"start":9549.426,"end":9560.24,"text":"你這個連署 讓人家覺得說你是辦案不案例那完全沒有公正公平 選擇性辦案你自己都不檢討 完全不是個案個案的話就是按照證據來辦案我們講辦案本來就是完全回復到證據來做一個認定我們現在是民主社會"},{"start":9567.608,"end":9584.973,"text":"你的每一分的 你的領的錢都是民脂民膏第二個我剛才說的 民進黨去辦活動 他們也是說人民是頭家啊那你從每次的民調 頭家都跟你說了喔不滿意度已經那麼高了 而且老實講欸 你是賴清德十一項重大的施政裡面最慘的欸"},{"start":9589.309,"end":9598.54,"text":"十一項裡面最慘的耶前幾天不是也有一個民調嗎每一條電子的報案都說五成八的民眾認為政治利益介入的減掉介入的司法"},{"start":9599.707,"end":9623.447,"text":"我來講不是一個民調你自己去判這個我不同意啦這個什麼正式介入司法我不同意我也希望就是說部分任何的黨派對司法都要給司法一個辦案的純淨空間我也不希望說在哪個地方去對司法做一個施壓用群眾的力量去做一個施壓那我想各界的聲音我們都會仔細去聽你是法母堡的大家長啦"},{"start":9624.548,"end":9644.082,"text":"你有責任讓法務體系的檢調每個人走出去都是有方的啦現在就是討人厭嘛結果你還一直在這邊強辯你的責任是什麼第一個你是頭是到家長啊對不對老實講總統為什麼任命你當法務部長我相信不得當打手或者讓人民不信任你對不對檢察官一個純淨的一個檢調純淨的辦案空間純淨的辦案空間齁這個請委員能夠支持部長"},{"start":9652.864,"end":9674.324,"text":"你接這個華部長職要做什麼事情?第一個你一定要有好的歷史定位嘛對不對?你就是過一陣子,可能後來要做三年四年,可以做八年很好你留下來這段時間的58%的不滿意那你要去改啊而且你是大家長啊你要讓你下面的人可以服氣啊"},{"start":9676.564,"end":9686.212,"text":"好來 我們來談某些案子最近啊 為什麼人民那麼不滿剛才說過 十萬年低調中文字這個案子最近一個案子 小平有空嗎這個案子引起人民多大的質疑跟不滿之前南檢在辦的時候 起訴的時候大家講說 哎 終於有動了"},{"start":9701.124,"end":9710.046,"text":"就台北地驗他竟然說沒辦法證明陳董就是陳仲諺雖然那個袋裡面都清清楚楚就有陳仲諺那個圖像啊現在剛司法為什麼會變那麼多質疑剛吳思瑤說一定要公正嘛不要選擇性辦案嘛你這段時間你看你最近這幾年來民進黨的不只陳仲諺"},{"start":9728.277,"end":9756.833,"text":"要嘛跑掉了對不對棄保險要嘛跑掉了要嘛就輕判更嚴重很多都是無罪你們還負責監聽你看你們監聽的那個譯文裡面多清楚多少證據也都沒問題所以人民為什麼會58%就現在看來好像是這車子一碰到民進黨就轉彎嘛國民黨就送飯嘛那個落差太大嘛"},{"start":9758.376,"end":9782.89,"text":"柯文哲不是這樣嗎柯文哲的案子你看最近這幾天你傳朱瑤虎來法官是獨立審判是不會做任我們不應該要給法官做任何的一些的一個干涉你剛問我哪個案子就是因為最近的太多案子人民都有很多意見你柯文哲你看你的北檢找了朱瑤虎去當證人要咬個柯文哲結果弄到連"},{"start":9784.721,"end":9799.395,"text":"他自己講說柯文哲跟沈千青碰面裡面談到清華城結果他正常是要推測的他整天在外面他就跑去看朋友結果他可以這樣推測然後第二個210他也沒有任何證據結果你們北檢可以把他當成一個重要的證據起訴柯文哲"},{"start":9800.516,"end":9818.924,"text":"柯文哲跟沈憲爺講裡面都有不正訊問這個是在法院審理的時候到底這個政經能力有沒有夠正名的話我想法官會獨立審判所以你看那麼多案子都有問題的時候我們要給法官一個獨立的一個辦案的一個空間我們尊重我們也都非常尊重法院的判決至於證據夠不夠那個是在法庭公訪的問題上是一個舉證的問題"},{"start":9820.725,"end":9834.259,"text":"那我想這個既然在法院審理中我們要給法院一個獨立純淨的辦公空間所以這部分我們都不會去批評法院是什麼審判不獨立或者是不公正的一個問題那我們完全從證據來做一個認定"},{"start":9836.401,"end":9851.702,"text":"用證據的公法一切用法定程序用法律的一些的規範來做一個證據跟審判那我想這個我必須要尊重司法當有人民25萬人上街頭已經吶喊在怒火了當所有民調都能呈現"},{"start":9853.115,"end":9870.51,"text":"司法改革是崩盤的大家對於黨檢沒議題有那麼多的質疑人民也透過民調跟你講了我們期待看到從代總統到司法院到檢調有一些檢討我相信是不是在強辯你有沒有解決問題還是越講人民越生氣"},{"start":9873.633,"end":9891.342,"text":"再過個幾天新的民調又出來就會打臉你了我覺得我們就看人民會用各式各樣的方式表達出來我剛特別提醒你一個點你是賴清德十一項重大施政裡面最慘的不滿意最高的滿意度最低的光是這點你就要趕快好好去檢討了好來我來請教那個蜂蜜吳思瑤啊前幾天就在這裡造謠"},{"start":9902.967,"end":9914.912,"text":"他說啊 法庭直播需要593億會不會妳那天好像也在場對不對是哪來的593億"},{"start":9920.15,"end":9945.328,"text":"法庭直播需要593億嗎我想他需要那個經費是看他那個計算基準如果說是要每一個法庭就是然後都那個硬體那個建置的話他事實上那個費用很高沒有錯我先跟你講我們現在在詢詢對不對在詢討現在都是前程直播啊你知道嗎立法院一年那麼多場的現場直播我們八個委員會嘛對不對一年你知道多少錢嗎"},{"start":9950.208,"end":9975.411,"text":"報告委員這部分我不了解吳思瑤說要593億這是將近593倍的造謠耶逆反一年的直播費用一億怎麼可以這樣造謠呢這是將近600倍的造謠太離譜了"},{"start":9976.656,"end":9987.141,"text":"所以我今天把真相跟大家講這是第一點錢不需要這麼多第二個台灣民眾黨的提案很清楚啊我們是針對什麼特定重要的社會矚目案件啊你說凱凱案大家關不關心很關心柯文哲案子大家關不關心很關心啊重大的社會矚目案件才要撥啊所以不是所有庭都在撥嘛是不是"},{"start":10008.86,"end":10030.712,"text":"所以請不要再造謠了錢第一個本來沒有那麼多第二個民眾黨非常的負責我們是針對特定重大社會矚目的這個案件好不好所以不是叫你所有的全部都要補沒有而且提出來當事人提出來之後你們還可以還可以決定說這個是屬於真正的特定重大的社會矚目案件啊"},{"start":10032.25,"end":10052.115,"text":"那個報告委員即使是那個重大矚目的那個案件的話他跟整個那個審判那個制度就是為了要追求一個公正的那個判決這常常那個有時候那個目的經過那個法庭直播之後是會受到影響的這個部分必須要非常審慎這個直播是你們"},{"start":10056.478,"end":10078.158,"text":"開這個私改國事會議早就定了耶2017年蔡英文總統召開的私改國事會議耶裡面喔 念一段文字給你聽好不好私改國事會議是有做出建議那但是它還是必須要經過那個主管機關非常負責跟審慎那個周延的那個評估才有辦法去實行的"},{"start":10079.66,"end":10105.821,"text":"我先念一下搞錯那個決議之後整個輿論事實上也有非常非常多的那個意見這部分都可以去看的我們一步步來啦 第一 當初的結論是什麼107年司法院跟法務部要逐步開放法庭直播意即在執行意見後一年內要完成草案含請立法院審議這樣有更清楚了吧"},{"start":10107.464,"end":10129.512,"text":"總統有開的耶而且明明確確要司法院跟法務部做這件事情嘛而且老實講 後來國民黨 民進黨都提案啊就是不見司法院跟法務部的案子啊這是當初的結論啊你可以看啊 這個有啊 對不對那你就跳票啊 欺騙大眾啊而且全世界 很多先進國家都在直播"},{"start":10137.08,"end":10165.011,"text":"鄉民逮捕那個案子最清楚,你看多少人在看而且這老實講,這是救我...要救你們這個司法公正性、司法改革崩盤被人家質疑一個很好的一個藥啦你這是公開透明嘛在那個直播過程裡面大家會發現檢察官的這個起訴的這個內容他到底有沒有揉製罪名有沒有把重要的這個關鍵的這個筆錄把它蓋起來有沒有不正的這個詢問"},{"start":10167.662,"end":10179.715,"text":"你明明是頭家啊 全世界都是這樣子你國內的這個司改國師會也是這樣啊怎麼可以現在反而倒退入然後我剛剛跟你講 經費上也不是問題啊沒有吳思堯造有那麼多錢啊好 民眾黨會已經提出版本了我們現在禁錮二讀了嘛我們現在禁錮二讀了"},{"start":10190.05,"end":10212.959,"text":"那我跟你講我們很期待得到司法院跟法務部的這個支持然後講這個不是為了個人任何一個人這是為了台灣整個司法改革也為了司法整個公開透明這個是就目前就你們啦救命司法院跟檢調體系這段時間受到質疑很好很重要的一大步我今天要趕快跨出去"},{"start":10213.973,"end":10237.755,"text":"包委員其實目前的那個法庭公開其實就已經非常的公開透明了所有公開的案件所有的司法記者跟官信人都可以進到裡面去看那但是呢就是說法庭公開跟要直播這是完全不同的那個事情就是這些影像是立刻會無遠弗屆那個出去的對於所有參與訴訟的這個人包括被告不是"},{"start":10238.035,"end":10262.791,"text":"不是只有公務員 包括所有進到法庭去的這些被告證人 鑑定人 事實上他們的隱私權還有他們的人格權 那個保護都必須要非常審慎的去評估所以 護密 那為什麼美國 歐美他們為什麼都在直播那個跟委員報告 這部分司法院有做過其實大部分的那個先進國家都是那個反對 而且立法也規定說不能夠法庭直播 像德國 法國"},{"start":10263.672,"end":10280.891,"text":"日本有規定可以但是他們實務上從來都不做那歐陸國家幾乎整排通通都是那個不行做的美國有聯邦跟各邦聯邦那個法院也幾乎通通都是不能夠做只有開放那個各邦那如果真的要談的話美國它事實上"},{"start":10283.174,"end":10307.012,"text":"他只有很少那個案件是進入到那個陪審團去大部分根本不進入訴訟的所以說他們幫的那個考量他會有其他那個特殊的考量那跟我們就是這種職業法系的那個國家考量完全是不一樣的而且要法庭直播事實上是增加當事人的負擔因為你影音出去的時候那個在現代那個影音時代你去當事人希望直播呢"},{"start":10308.069,"end":10321.427,"text":"你為什麼幫當事人決定說他不要直播呢第二個我剛講過了吧那當初為什麼蔡英文的司法國事會議他要這樣定那時候是產官學所有人都在包括你們司法院的代表法務部的代表都在喔"},{"start":10323.409,"end":10349.715,"text":"可以看一下那個當時的那個輿論其實大部分都是反對那司法院除了做那個就是委託案學者那個委託案之外我們也做過了好幾次的那個就是公聽會又做過那個學術研討會就是焦點團體的學術研討會大部分的幾乎通通都是反對的怎麼你聽到聲音跟社會的大眾都是不一樣的我們還特別去做民調我們說我們做的是焦點團體的我們還特別去做民調你來來來我唸給你聽知不知詞"},{"start":10353.269,"end":10362.757,"text":"針對特定的重大社會矚目案件 進行法庭的公開直播支持度多少 你知道嗎7乘5耶 不支持只有19.5耶差3、4倍耶"},{"start":10367.155,"end":10383.149,"text":"今天我們在那個議場的時候法官協會剛剛也發了一份聲明他們也是對於這個非常質疑的對於法庭直播非常質疑所以這件事情真的必須要非常審慎的評估因為一旦開放之後就沒有辦法回頭了"},{"start":10384.568,"end":10412.634,"text":"各種聲音都有啦那我剛剛跟你講了我沿用的第一個是我們做過民調第二個之前蔡政府提出來的司法改革會議的結論要你們提版本嘛然後後來國民黨跟民進黨各黨的連時代力量立法院都有提案喔都有提啊那全世界也有一些先進國家都有做啊那現在老蔣沒有錯我剛剛講的也有更嚴重的這對目前來講就是因為司法不受到信任你讓陽光射進來嘛"},{"start":10414.401,"end":10436.666,"text":"讓一些重大的案子讓人民可以看得到嘛你不是老闆讓人民來有一個公開透明的過程嘛你目前像目前一些重要的案子現在法庭公開大家都已經可以去旁聽了絕大部分都進不去吧對不對你有看過柯文哲每次開庭前一天的晚前一天大概下午就一堆人在那邊排隊根本都進不去啊你們是會這樣你們北院每次只要柯文哲"},{"start":10444.639,"end":10452.323,"text":"明天還要開庭 你今天下午去看 下午就有人在那邊排了就是一路人進不去嘛連我們立法委人家進去旁聽都聽不了啊讓全民可以公開透明讓陽光設計我們的法庭 謝謝"},{"start":10463.449,"end":10482.818,"text":"謝謝委員我們先處理會議時間 上午會議時間持續進行至所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止那因為我們剛剛已經有宣告了就是在張季愷委員詢答後休息五分鐘那我們現在休息五分鐘時間到我們就立刻開始 謝謝"},{"start":10792.025,"end":10812.698,"text":"好謝謝我們繼續開會下一位我們請麥玉珍委員發言謝謝主席有請錦珍署長還有中選會麻煩署長中選會"},{"start":10822.301,"end":10849.905,"text":"好委員好署長好署長看一下我們就是這個就是闖進我們的校園的案件我們署長你認為誰對誰錯是否是我們的警衛非常盡責還是說我們罷免的團體無法無天對根據我們對你先回答"},{"start":10851.557,"end":10879.54,"text":"那對於校園的部分我們警察組的看法就是尊重校園的自治啦校園的自治尊重校園的自治因為我們警察進入校園也要經過他們的同意啦就是去處理一些相關的可能這些學生的這個事務也要透過學校的這個同意我們才能夠進入我們警察進入校園都是這樣子的所以對於校園的這個處置的一個方式那我們是尊重校園的這個自治"},{"start":10881.087,"end":10901.989,"text":"好所以說我們但是我們根據交易基準法第6條的規定交易因本中立原則你們覺得這個人號稱自己是博士生有博士生的知識的能力卻還做出這種就是違法的行為除了違法"},{"start":10903.391,"end":10924.034,"text":"選爆法之外 還違反了社會秩序的維護法第73條規定與學校 博物館 圖書館 還有就是展覽會 運動會或其他公共場所口角紛爭的喧嘩之勢不停止"},{"start":10925.491,"end":10944.079,"text":"這樣子的人所以呢經過多吃幾排還有呢就是說勸導這是你們的語言但是呢就是就挑戰公權力已經是違法的行為如果你們覺得這樣子如何處理"},{"start":10944.889,"end":10973.361,"text":"好那這個學校當然第一時間如果警衛他會做處理那他處理沒辦法處理的時候他會像這個案子有報案報案之後我們到場之後就會做處置所以這個案第一個當然是尊重校園處理校園沒辦法處理要經過我們的這個對於他的可能處置治安難省要做我們行政協助或者是依法去處理我們警方會到場到場之後像這一件就有做在做"},{"start":10974.942,"end":10999.144,"text":"對這件的一個學生的訓斷都有做排除我們道場就有協助校方來處理有排除這件事情有排除這件事情就是沒有再進去因為他當時跟這個諸位警有發生衝突他如果說能夠處置不讓他進去那當然就離開嘛那當時在那邊有爭執沒辦法處理之後請警方道場警方道場之後有處置他就離開了"},{"start":11000.832,"end":11007.736,"text":"所以說你有沒有說要去傳喚他來說明為什麼說他已經這個我們的法已經通過了他還是這樣子的行為就無法無天了嘛問題就是說當時的狀況是有沒有違法就是有沒有告訴告發嘛有沒有違法這個校方有沒有要做告訴告發有一些就是屬於告訴乃論的這個部分有些還沒達到法律的要件"},{"start":11026.846,"end":11045.675,"text":"你說學校也是有報案 你們已經介入了所以說只是勸導他離開所以說你們沒有去查 或者是說要去換他來說明為什麼他是博士 他還是做這樣子我們拜託我們署長齁 我們不要緊啦 少子化"},{"start":11049.974,"end":11061.256,"text":"讓孩子好好去讀書啦這個是拜託你 拜託你也是要讓不要再這樣子去打擾我們的學校也不要去打擾學生"},{"start":11062.49,"end":11071.455,"text":"這個部分希望我們警政署這邊因為我們這個人他已經進入這樣子的學校所以已經違法我們的選罷法第52條的規定與第104條的規定違法進入學校就是宣導的意圖了所以這個選罷法在114年2月18號已經"},{"start":11090.766,"end":11118.379,"text":"修法通過了所以我們希望我們的警政署這邊就是要去處理啦希望你不要讓他就是就是討債我們的公權力所以不能就是已經進入如果是他沒有讓學校那麼生氣不可能會報紙都登啦因為遷倒一次兩次這樣子的話他還在那一邊"},{"start":11119.159,"end":11144.502,"text":"才會上報不會學校這樣子就馬上去上報啦這個才是說我們感覺是嚴重性啦好就希望我們的署長就是要去進一步的了解 好嗎好 謝謝好 接下來我要想要請教一下我們的NCC代理主委還有個資保護委員會的我們的訴發部"},{"start":11150.9,"end":11174.246,"text":"因為我們就是根據各自保護法第20條我們各自個人資料的利用於收集日必要範圍內非經過當事人同意不得為目標外的利用但是我們看到的 請教一下"},{"start":11176.147,"end":11195.657,"text":"誰給這些罷免團體使用簡訊發各自的權限還有說中選會是否掌握誰取得了連署人的手機資料還有是說第三方的聯繫的外卸抒發部還有我們各自保護委員會的籌備處是否舉動調查這個有做嗎 我們的行政有沒有依法行政"},{"start":11204.727,"end":11229.39,"text":"公園報告NCC的之前範圍內是針對三大電信業者這一塊我們都有要求他們來落實各自法尊那針對這個個案我們在5月5號5月9號都找他們來做行政調查那調查結果是這些資訊都不是三大業者他們的這個接受的簡訊的資訊都不是電信業者所提供電信業者也沒有提供其他的LBS服務以上"},{"start":11230.967,"end":11235.508,"text":"我們法務部長說不談個案所以很多才會到我們這邊個案的話 只有查個案的話就是沒辦法去查到水落石出所以說我們難道我們今天任何人都可以就是以政治的目的任意就是發簡信嗎所以這種就是罷免為民就是已經洩露很多我們的個資了"},{"start":11257.515,"end":11272.879,"text":"所以我們要用這個個資保護法放在這裡,對我們人民真的沒有保障所以這樣子的,我們政府這樣子就是個案查也沒有說真正的是讓我們知道說怎麼樣去查出還有就是我們還是呢,就像我們之前我們的王一川委員說的"},{"start":11282.722,"end":11289.871,"text":"引發國家機器監控還是他用這樣子的方式用手機來對比掃描把這個資料給業者嗎"},{"start":11296.821,"end":11317.985,"text":"這個部分我們也要查清楚喔電信業者部分我們已經查過沒有這種情況但是因為這個整個發送簡訊的流程有涉及到好幾個不同的業別那不同業別有對應不同的主管機關來處理那NCC的職長範圍內的部分已經查過目前並沒有違反各自的情形"},{"start":11319.375,"end":11339.378,"text":"所以變成是罷免團體他們就是用抓的網路抓下來就是傳簡訊是這樣子的意思嗎所以沒有這樣情形他們的資料從哪裡來的應該有源頭啦電信業者的部分沒有洩露個資也沒有做目的外的利用"},{"start":11341.092,"end":11364.713,"text":"所以你們查得很清楚有資料這些如果是說這些要被莫名其妙收到簡訊的人再來去檢舉的話你們每一個都查不要說個案通盤查當事人接受人他可以來主張他的權益用個資法後面的一些29條等等來做一些主張他的權益"},{"start":11365.379,"end":11378.628,"text":"所以你們都有研查嘛但是我們沒有看到說你們可不可以提供說你們是有去查的因為任何的資料我們登錄我們登錄都有記錄的登錄資"},{"start":11380.789,"end":11399.979,"text":"資料都有記錄護證他們登錄看資料都有記錄所以說你們都沒有查出就說就查沒有沒有不是業者這樣子用說的我們真的沒有辦法說我們人民有保障有記錄有記錄那如果委員需要我們可以跟委員報告電信業者部分是沒有問題的"},{"start":11400.839,"end":11421.724,"text":"好 OK如果是這樣子那麼明確的話我們希望說要保障我們人民的權利啦因為我們個資保護法已經定在那裡了但是有很多我們的資料都會被人家去盜用或者是傳點信莫名其妙就會傳到很多的點信所以我們才會覺得說今天希望我們NCC這邊還有就是我們中選會我們法務部"},{"start":11427.225,"end":11452.411,"text":"各個警政署我們就是要徹查因為這些都是有認證身份還有記錄的還有我們希望不允許我們民進黨在用民主的名義掩護違法的行為還有人民的手機不是你們的政治的工具資料也不是你們動員的機器的燃料民進黨是否有聯心"},{"start":11454.671,"end":11482.962,"text":"就不該再當個資公發因為我們希望真的徹底去查避免就是假罷免還有真真壓操控我們的人民的個資這樣我們真的是會感覺就是到處都要去預防人民這樣子的恐慌我們希望在這邊訴求各單位給明確的一個交代我們如果沒有"},{"start":11483.982,"end":11508.277,"text":"還在被人民再來去打電話來跟我們投訴的話我們就會徹底我們就要去查這個事情希望大家就是要保護我們人民的個資也是保護我們人民的安全可以嗎再麻煩你沒有問題好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝 那下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言"},{"start":11522.868,"end":11537.495,"text":"好主席好在這裡我首先先請NCC陳代理主委代理主委是還有中華電信林副總中華電信是陳主委您好我想這次因為蠻多民眾有收到霸團的簡訊然後引發"},{"start":11550.1,"end":11572.681,"text":"這個各自外洩的爭議那我當然知道說其實NCC督導的是電信業者所以到底電信業者有沒有實際上去從事這個LBS的這個服務的這個簡訊的發送這個經過NCC的調查看起來現在並不是由中華電信這裡還有三大電信業者所提供的"},{"start":11573.928,"end":11594.433,"text":"LBS的簡訊發送那我在這裡我想請教一個問題就是除了三大電信業者可以提供LBS的區域就是簡訊發送之外一般來說簡訊代理商他們可不可以做這個LBS的簡訊發送"},{"start":11596.567,"end":11610.699,"text":"一般是沒有 技術上的話一定是電信公司因為基地台的資訊在電信公司所以九天大發業是沒有辦法發送LBS的它只是委託三大電信公司去發送它是發送方"},{"start":11613.151,"end":11632.117,"text":"好也就是說是簡訊代理商原則上他是沒有這樣的一個權限還有技術可以直接去做LBS的發送他就算是有這個需求他也必須要透過三大電信業者才能夠去提供這樣的發送是嗎"},{"start":11632.737,"end":11656.713,"text":"對沒錯但是從另外一層面來看LBS這個服務電信公司推出這個服務他必須要取得用戶的同意同意之後那他電信公司可能會跟一些商家合作你到百貨公司百貨公司知道你的地點所在他就會發給你但這前提都是使用者同意電信公司他的來做這個目的外的利用是用戶要同意"},{"start":11657.988,"end":11660.789,"text":"我們以中華電信的例子來講中華電信服務契約第37條裡面其實就有規定那麼中華電信對於用戶各自的用戶"},{"start":11678.736,"end":11697.726,"text":"各自的資料如果說有經過用戶事先同意的話他才可以做收集目的以外的利用那麼這也是今天在討論就是說但是在中華電信的這個服務契約裡面看起來其實並沒有寫得那麼清楚到底所謂的可以同意做收集目的以外的利用"},{"start":11698.546,"end":11720.999,"text":"這個利用的範圍到哪裡這也是今天很多的委員其實都有在問的他到底是只能夠做商業的行銷還是說包含連政治行銷也可以在內又或者是日後有很多的所謂的活動行銷是不是都可以這個做都可以被認定為它是屬於收集目的以外的利用那請問就ACC對這個看法是什麼"},{"start":11724.677,"end":11739.83,"text":"商業使用LBS其實都是屬於一種目的外的使用我們講商業警訊這商業其實是一個通稱它的英文是對應A to PA是advertisement就是廣告廣告性質包括商業用途包括"},{"start":11740.75,"end":11767.603,"text":"剛剛前面有早上有提到說如果選罷法可以宣傳那也算是一種另類的廣告那這邊的範圍應該是還在範圍內的至於說詳細的個別公司他們在真正操作上這個目的外的使用的情境我們是可以請中華來補充一下主委我這邊要提醒如果說你認為說是發這個廣告它是屬於一個選舉廣告的話其實這個可能會涉及到選罷法的問題"},{"start":11768.783,"end":11784.384,"text":"什麼時候可以發什麼時候不能發在我們選罷法裡面還有清楚的規定我認為說在這裡所謂的廣告的使用不能夠做這麼廣義的解釋而且如果說是以之前我們所看到很多的案例基本上都是奠定在所謂的商業行銷的廣告"},{"start":11785.686,"end":11800.34,"text":"就純商業的廣告而不是涵蓋到其他的各類的這種行銷活動的廣告如果是這樣的話變成說你們可能從相關的辦法或者是說接下來要要求這個三大電信業者都要修改"},{"start":11801.836,"end":11824.801,"text":"電信服務的契約 不能夠這樣子這麼空泛是 各位報告回到母法電信管理法第四條電信的效果由發送人來負起責任如果今天發送方是那個頂到他業者的契客他發送的政治上的宣導的廣告到法律上責任他要負責這跟電信公司無關 電信公司這方面是免責的"},{"start":11826.26,"end":11844.162,"text":"那所以就是說以這次的案例來講你們認為說這是完全就是這個簡訊代理商他們自己去輸入這個用戶的門號對 是簡訊代理商的契客簡訊代理商的客戶提供給簡訊代理商來發簡訊代理商再經過這個API介面透過三大電信來發送"},{"start":11845.512,"end":11853.24,"text":"那電信公司三大電信公司再透過三大電信來發送對 因為行動網路是三大電信公司才有 它才有辦法發送但是發送源頭當然是簡訊大發業者的企客來提供的對 可是如果說這樣的話其實對於三大電信業者它仍然是發送到最後的這個案件這個簡訊出去還是三大電信業者不是嗎"},{"start":11869.11,"end":11891.938,"text":"資訊來源是最源頭端然後一般民眾其實他也可以選擇不要接受這個商業簡訊的權利隨時可以跟三大電信公司申請退出或加入都可以我聽不太懂這個主委那邊說的意思基本上現在就是由簡訊代理商那裡他們提供了一份名單交給中華電信去發送"},{"start":11894.013,"end":11899.347,"text":"對 是這樣子沒錯所以那你又說發送人又不是中華電信那明明中華電信就是實際上要發送的"},{"start":11901.445,"end":11929.125,"text":"所有東西一定是經過電信網路發送出去但是我們講說發信人發送人那是最源頭端今天我個人對個人的話我今天發送給某甲那我為什麼知道某甲的號碼那是我要負責任我是偷拿到他的還是怎麼樣是我要負責任那今天這個案子上源頭端是簡訊大發業者的客戶就是某行銷公司他所掌握有的他怎麼掌握有他要負這個相關的法律責任"},{"start":11930.385,"end":11955.17,"text":"請問一下現在簡訊代理商的主管機關是哪一個單位簡訊代理商目前是這個資訊服務業資訊服務業是有相關的主管機關哪一個主管機關主管機關是速發部嗎還是經濟部以前是經濟部現在應該是應該我當然分工我還在確認早期是工業局現在應該可能是數位部"},{"start":11958.447,"end":11971.602,"text":"曾主委 這個跟你們的業務都有關這些個別的行業這跟電信業者有關的行業和主管機關你們也要了解清楚我們上禮拜五已經把我們辦法結果函轉給他們所以你們函轉給哪個單位"},{"start":11976.121,"end":11981.463,"text":"所以這兩個單位他們基本上應該要來落實要去調查嘛到底這個個資是從哪裡掌握的一般民眾也可以依據個資法來自行來維護權益來告發那請問法務部請問正部長現在你們有收到民眾的告發了嗎"},{"start":12003.749,"end":12017.567,"text":"地檢署有收到了嗎?你們有依職權調查了嗎?那個目前是還沒有收到那如果說有有那個告訴高發那我們就依法來處理所以沒有告訴高發的話你們完全都不動"},{"start":12018.571,"end":12034.316,"text":"因為這個是不是因為這個蠻這個很多的專業的問題很明顯的要我們要知有因為告訴告發或知有明確的犯罪嫌疑那我們就會二二八條現在所以這還不算是有明確的犯罪嫌疑嗎就是很明顯就是有個資外洩的問題"},{"start":12035.256,"end":12058.074,"text":"因為如果說是從剛陳主委那邊也講了嘛就是簡訊代理上他基本上他擁有的這個用戶的資料按照中華電信的說法你們都要去識別化不能夠有任何辨認可是現在所有的簡訊都能夠精準打擊在一定的區域範圍裡面所以很明顯的就是一定是簡訊代理商要不然是企業用戶他們掌握了這個個資"},{"start":12059.995,"end":12075.133,"text":"而且很清楚的個資才有辦法就是委託交由簡訊代理商然後再交由中華電信來發送這看起來我覺得這個犯罪的嫌疑這犯罪事實比去抓那偽造連署還清楚"},{"start":12077.267,"end":12089.542,"text":"所以我希望防務部能夠扛起責任好不好該去調查就去調查檢調單位在這件事情上面要有態度要有動作嘛"},{"start":12091.834,"end":12107.703,"text":"好那另外好謝謝部長我想你們應該是還沒動作了不過我這邊提醒你們希望你們能夠趕快回去一職權就可以來啟動調查好謝謝請部長先回座那另外我想要請教中華電信就是你們一般來說你們跟簡訊代理商的簽約時間是多久"},{"start":12110.096,"end":12133.15,"text":"我們跟簡訊代理商的簽約大概是一到兩年然後我們隨時也會去看看說那個簡訊代理商他有沒有依照合約裡面去履行相關的這一個義務所以你們提供了這些用戶的資料給簡訊代理商那時間到了之後你們會把這些資料全部收回全部銷毀嗎我們不會提供資料給簡訊代理商我們不會提供資料給簡訊代理商"},{"start":12139.594,"end":12163.388,"text":"我聽不太懂可是你們LBS的服務不是就是提供所謂去識別化的個資然後把這些訊息提供給企業用戶我們先調查結果三大沒有針對這個案子提供LBS服務沒有那是媒體報導那如果說三大電信你們現在又拿了用戶去識別化的個資之後這些資料"},{"start":12164.537,"end":12171.298,"text":"你們是怎麼樣提供給相關的廠商企業用戶因為很多行銷公司他們需要這些資料"},{"start":12172.596,"end":12197.724,"text":"基本上先跟委員報告去識別化的資料它就是那個資訊它不會再涉及各自沒有我先來問很簡單的問題就是你們跟這些廠商簽契約一次是簽幾年然後簽完了這個期間契約期間借滿之後你們會把所有的資料再收回嗎還是不會還是這些廠商他們就擁有這些所有的資料還是要跟委員報告我們沒有交付資料的行為"},{"start":12202.51,"end":12211.261,"text":"那你們在去識別化的資料不是就是要交給行銷公司去做商業行銷嗎?商業廣告你不提供資料給他們,他們怎麼做商業行銷?"},{"start":12212.267,"end":12232.042,"text":"去識別化之後的資料是屬於那個資訊資料的這個處理應用那這個部分的處理應用我們也會跟那個委託方就這個部分去做相關的對應處理但是在中華電信公司本身不會有任何交付個資資料的行為"},{"start":12233.083,"end":12259.253,"text":"我現在只是講交付去識別化的資料我沒有講說你交付個資你們明明不是說你剛剛這個我跟委員把去識別化的資料系統那個資料在我們的那個資料資料在我們的那個系統裡面所以這個部分的那個處理他是屬於輪廓性資料的那個分析所以如果委員提到是交付資料的話那都是屬於輪廓性的資料"},{"start":12259.693,"end":12267.219,"text":"好現在就講交付輪廓性的資料你們一次簽約是幾年嗎你們跟著委託委託方"},{"start":12268.309,"end":12289.581,"text":"這個可能跟個別廠商不同可能一到兩年或兩到三年不管那你們這個契約屆滿之後你們認為交出去的這個輪廓性資料你們會收回嗎這個輪廓性的資料一般是委託方他委託之後所得到的結果我們不會再去說了因為他本身也就已經擁有了這個輪廓性的資料了"},{"start":12290.92,"end":12311.525,"text":"所以我覺得這是一個問題因為現在科技技術日新月異你們現在交出去的輪廓性的資料他們說不定很有可能會依據你們的資料重新再還原或者是說是再去做一些回復到可能有相當程度識別性的這樣子的一個作用一個服務所以"},{"start":12316.195,"end":12340.547,"text":"我認為其實中華電信你們未來還有就是NCC這裡可能要注意就是你們未來在督導這些電信業者在提供這些去識別化的資料是不是期間到了之後這些識別性的資料要有方法可以把它全部銷毀否則現在講難聽一點這些簡訊代理商他可能拿到的資料他手上有了一大堆的資料然後期間借滿了之後他也不需要在那裡上有什麼"},{"start":12342.068,"end":12361.8,"text":"警察以上手上不會有三大電信公司提供的個人資料然後去識別化的基本上也不會提供他因為111年憲判13號的解釋上他是要從嚴來認定的這個份我們都已經要求三大電信要謹慎為之所以這一塊他們的業務操作都是非常謹慎"},{"start":12364.154,"end":12387.516,"text":"對應今天這些討論的個案 都沒有把資料提供給發送端不管是行銷公司什麼都沒有我想我們現在這邊講的這個問題的層次好像不在就是講的問題不在同一個層次上面我現在要談的就是說你們現在講的是個資去識別化的資料"},{"start":12388.537,"end":12416.907,"text":"那我這邊我也是談的我這裡不是談說你們交付個資我是說你們交付的可能是去識別化的資料剛剛按照副總的說法所謂輪廓性的資料你既然是輪廓性的資料的話它還是對於廠商來講它還是有利可圖它才會要去做相關的行銷服務嘛那這部分的資料你們後續怎麼處理我希望你們能夠這個有能夠再提供更精簡的提出分一份報告"},{"start":12418.027,"end":12420.813,"text":"最後不好意思 我很快再問一個問題 剩讓我兩分鐘那接下來請中選會"},{"start":12429.777,"end":12450.712,"text":"謝謝主委跟副總你們可以先回座我想請教的就是有關於最近有罷團的團體提出領銜人的更換作業因為現在中選會回答說選罷法沒有授權可定辦法所以就不去制定相關的地補領銜人的作業辦法"},{"start":12454.295,"end":12468.249,"text":"那本席當然啦你們如果從依法的角度來講你們是沒有授權明確所以你們不定可是事實上你中學會過去也定了很多的注意規定啊也定了很多的規則那麼事實上你們可以針對這個地埔領銜人發一個發布一個SOP的規則為什麼你們不做"},{"start":12474.427,"end":12486.495,"text":"跟委員報告 首先是說明一下我們在選罷確實沒有這樣的授權但是我們在委員會議已經有針對後續就是這個罷團這邊應該要怎麼去處理已經有發函跟罷團這邊來做說明"},{"start":12492.759,"end":12515.274,"text":"是我想這個部分其實還是要很清楚因為從你們回函裡面其實並不清楚我接下來要問的就是說是如果說候補領銜人他遞補為領銜人在這個程序基本上中選會預估要審查要幾天也就是說是現在收集了這個同意更換領銜人的這樣的同意書然後送到中選會中選會你要審查多久"},{"start":12516.501,"end":12540.292,"text":"因為這個一樣是沒有規範 那我們會盡快來做審查不是 因為你們這要訂得很清楚現在你們的公文的說法也就是以這個罷免吳思瑤的這個案子為例的話6月7號之前所有的二階的連署書要送達那麼同時那個更換領銜人的這個程序也要完成這可能會有互相衝突的情況"},{"start":12543.922,"end":12568.905,"text":"是 他就是在送連署書的時候 他必須要完成這個更換因為他原本他現在認定 好 但如果說他6月6號之前他送這個更換同意書那你們有辦法24小時之內就做好嗎這個部分我們會盡快來做審查所謂盡快24小時之內要完成那這樣的話人家才有辦法在6月7號當天去送二接的連署書 是嗎是 我們會盡快來審查"},{"start":12571.544,"end":12600.327,"text":"處長你講清楚麻煩您可以確定一下您所謂盡快就是24小時之內嘛這樣的話才能夠確保大家在6月7號之前把那二階的聯署書然後可以送達對不對因為你們要查核查核要完成嘛到底能不能通過因為現在這個問題就在於說如果說是更換領銜人的這件事情沒有確定他會不會影響到後續的罷免案影響到這個後續的聯署書聯署人的名冊二階的聯署人名冊"},{"start":12601.407,"end":12626.31,"text":"還是說你們分開處理反正更換同意書我先送然後二階的聯署書我達標了我也先送那麼如果說這個領銜人萬一審查不過的話那麼那當然可能後面就不論但是如果領銜人的這個部分通過的話那就是全部都照算他必須要在送聯署書的時候已經完成程序"},{"start":12627.727,"end":12640.419,"text":"對這就是問題點6月7號是他的dayline那你並沒有講說這罷免更換同意人的這個領銜書是什麼時候要送達所以我就說講一個極端的例子他6月6號送呢這部分我們就是盡快來審查按照你們的公文的意思他6月6號送都可以喔所以你們要盡速24小時之內就要這個就要這個審查完成"},{"start":12653.936,"end":12673.412,"text":"對 就這個部分我希望中選會是不是今天可以就是給我一個清楚的答覆好不好 因為這涉及到人民行使罷免權很重要的一個事項就是如果說是你們沒有講清楚接下來人家罷免團體不知道怎麼做啊可以嗎 可以今天下班之前給我一個回覆嗎"},{"start":12680.68,"end":12701.659,"text":"可以再一點時間嗎 就是可不可以明天再好 那就明天好不好 明天要給我一個清楚的回覆好不好 這真的是影響到我們這麼多罷免人還有連署人的權益這必須行政行為內容要明確 好不好那麼希望這個處長你明天下班之前明天中午吧 明天中午12點之前給我一個回覆"},{"start":12702.739,"end":12723.524,"text":"好謝謝那就麻煩要照處理那個中選會在法制上面設計是獨立機關不是執政黨的啦啦隊所以要麻煩秉公處理我知道那個翁委員在問什麼問題然後因為剛剛那個翁委員有麻煩中華電信要補資料嘛那就可以麻煩中華電信要幾天內補不給你"},{"start":12728.643,"end":12750.06,"text":"好 那個中華電信就麻煩星期五的時候補一下資料然後另外因為剛剛翁委員有提到那什麼叫做輪廓性資料 請說明一下這個部分我想翁委員應該是在問這個問題輪廓性資料的定義是什麼我剛剛那邊聽很久我也聽不懂所以可能要麻煩中華電信能夠跟翁委員說明這一塊 謝謝好 那下一位我們請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":12763.382,"end":12765.884,"text":"主席有請法務部長麻煩部長委員好部長好"},{"start":12776.598,"end":12796.593,"text":"大家知道凱凱案造成大家心非常痛 民怨也沸騰13位網友在公共政策平台提議要提高虐童者的刑責希望致死者要處無期徒刑或死刑 且不得假釋"},{"start":12797.998,"end":12821.676,"text":"但是法務部卻回應不予採納但我也看到新聞說 部長你今天在立法院表示虐童行為是人神共憤 天理難容 零容忍那更周延的法律保護 法務部仍在演繹中我想請問 到底是不採納還是零容忍"},{"start":12823.942,"end":12840.754,"text":"跟委員報告,我想這個我們凱凱案的有關兒少保護,我們一定要非常的落實,而且要非常完備。那的確這個是對有些虐殺這種是人神功天理然容,絕對是零容忍。"},{"start":12841.314,"end":12868.593,"text":"那這部分我們在法治上我們會我們現在在檢討說哪些是可以有可以再努力的一個地方因為我們要讓這些的此類這些讓我們全民痛心的這些以及像兒童的這個被虐殺的這種我們覺得不能容許在我這裡發生所以這部分我們在法治我們會再做一個更周延的一個那給我們一些時間我們會盡快來做一個處理那目前我們是在研議"},{"start":12869.413,"end":12893.773,"text":"那另外那個假釋的那部分我們那個有關於假釋我們有提那個假釋就是殺人或殺人未遂判十年以上這種我們是不得假釋像那個孽統的那種零列那部分事實上有時候他可能有些的個案的現在可能會有單純的零列自加重接管有些可能會到殺人的那部分"},{"start":12894.654,"end":12908.128,"text":"那這部分殺人根據271條那個是死刑無期徒刑跟10年以上有期徒刑那這部分的保密是不是可以再更周延那我們現在在眼裡中"},{"start":12911.153,"end":12937.693,"text":"雖然你剛剛的回答我也沒有很滿意啦但是起碼我覺得你的回答就柔軟多了那我想問法務部第一時間不予採納是什麼意思啊那部分那是就一個現況的一個法律的一個現況的著重在那樣的一個說明那我想這個認可的法律都是要做滾動式的一個檢視檢討我跟部長說啦還是提醒一下"},{"start":12938.803,"end":12963.022,"text":"法務部跟人民的所謂的我們講社會尤其是治安跟我們的司法保護的情感是密切相關13位網友的憤怒是假的嗎?是不應該的嗎?不是吧大家是對這個所謂的虐童致死的事情是感到很痛心才會有這麼多的網友來做公共政策的提案"},{"start":12963.88,"end":12987.359,"text":"法務部一盆冷水潑過去不予採納沒有那個 我們就是沒有關係啊 部長你剛剛回答你就說已經是比原來我看到的這個冷冷冰冰的四個字要有溫度的多所以我才說 雖然你的回答我也不是很滿意但是至少比冷冷冰冰的說不予採納的要好凱凱遭保姆姐妹凌虐致死"},{"start":12988.291,"end":12995.402,"text":"那中間很多的細節真的讓人髮指連台大醫師都探說從來沒見過這麼嚴重的人為暴力"},{"start":12998.51,"end":13017.609,"text":"那法官雖然認為保姆姊妹倆以虐取樂 違害慎據但是因為檢方是依據凌虐兒童致死罪起訴但這個罪目前沒有死刑嘛 對不對那法官也不能判死所以一審是判保姆姊妹無期徒刑跟18年有期徒刑"},{"start":13019.481,"end":13033.099,"text":"事實上本席跟我們國民黨都已經有提案修法要加重虐童的刑責來修正刑法286條那麼對於虐童 凌虐致死者最高可以判處死刑"},{"start":13034.04,"end":13050.271,"text":"來符合罪行相當的原則那也要來修刑法77條觸犯286者遭判有期徒刑不得假釋這都是我們現在的提案那其中最重要的是把這個所謂的死刑納為選項之一判刑的選項之一來發揮對所謂的虐童"},{"start":13053.993,"end":13074.587,"text":"殘暴虐童致死的這個行為的遏止那麼我想請教部長既然部長剛剛已經也表達了同理心你甚至也說要對這種惡行要零容忍我想請問法務部是不是也會針對這個部分提案修法甚至來請行政院提出院版那大概什麼時候可以提出來"},{"start":13075.227,"end":13092.446,"text":"這部分我們現在在這個條文我們在演繹中那我想委員這部分就是說林烈是被盜死刑這個選項我倒會就有一個不同的思考這個林烈如果說一開始就是不違反他的本意這有間接故事這根本就是殺人的一個行為了嘛"},{"start":13093.047,"end":13118.225,"text":"那為什麼你今天不用殺人罪請說沒有 那這個因為個案 我就個案的證據我沒辦法去做一個證據的蒐集跟認定但是從那個太陽是從那個陵列 陵列的一般陵列 陵列至中傷至死以至到死刑拘禁至陵列 陵列而至死以至到 甚至到殺人的一個不同的一個太陽的分布那我想當然這個案是會分布在整個一個"},{"start":13120.067,"end":13139.887,"text":"這幾個一個區塊裡面那我想我們在檢討的確是凱凱民安令我們非常的痛心非常的難過那我想絕對不能再容許有此類的案件發生所以在法治上我們是希望能夠更加的一個完備更加充分的保護這些的這個是很可憐的這些尤其是"},{"start":13141.532,"end":13164.764,"text":"這個未滿18歲尤其是未滿7歲的這些兒童跟少年這個是讓我們非常的痛心的所以這部分我們法務部是有在這邊就一個一個研議要更能夠落實充分保護這些的兒童那剛才委員關心的那個假釋部分那我們已經提那個殺人殺人未遂10年以上的這些不得假釋這部分重大的暴力的這些"},{"start":13165.868,"end":13191.056,"text":"我們已經提給 報給行政委 行政委就開審查開了兩次了那如果說還有再更不足的 我們會再做一個嚴厲來做一個檢討我直接跟部長說 做一個簡單的一個小結事實上在開檢案發生的時候 立法院有一共有15個提案修法其中10個提案是要把死刑納入量刑的考量當中"},{"start":13191.776,"end":13218.752,"text":"那剛剛我其實有點遺憾啦雖然你提了其他一些所謂法律條件適用的問題但本質上你是反對將凌虐兒童致死這件事情如果說凌虐這個已經到達殺人的那一種當然是因為有些凌虐是有未必故意因為我想那個主刑很清楚嘛凌虐單純的凌虐致死那現在是無期徒刑但是我認為如果這個凌虐的他一開始就"},{"start":13220.014,"end":13243.402,"text":"就死了沒關係就那種部分這個更加的可惡這個已經列入進入到271條的一個問題了甚至那個有有那個兒少法的115條的那個加重二分之一那我們覺得這個是不是才夠我們也是覺得說是不是可以更重的一個一個一個我跟你講我很快下一個結論我待會可以聽聽主席的意見沒有問題 剛才點名主席嘛"},{"start":13244.181,"end":13266.351,"text":"我跟你講你剛剛跟我講說這個法條有殺人罪可以用所以死刑不一定要用在凌虐兒童制止這個都可以討論的所以你在這部分你的修法態度是保留的嗎保守沒有沒有那個我們跟委員你也要跟我講我覺得那個凌虐的部分如果說真的有殺人的那些都故意那個直接殺人的話那個直接我"},{"start":13267.071,"end":13282.231,"text":"所以兒童的保護規定 我要跟文在德二七一條 那我會更重喔那會更重 我們是不是他的選項是到甚至可以考慮 我只講一個事實性的結果嘛事實性的結果 你今天就不是用殺人罪起訴他嘛"},{"start":13283.234,"end":13301.559,"text":"因為這個個案我沒辦法去討論到我不知道我請我們主席開示一下你剛剛說點名主席我不讓主席講講話我覺得對主席不好意思我想法務部的意思我也有看過法務部他是從立法技術面去思考因為前面凌虐跟後面的死亡他不是殺人故意所以"},{"start":13302.219,"end":13326.772,"text":"後面那個死亡是有點類似是過失致死的那個概念所以那個法務部認為說凌虐是凌虐行為然後再造成過失致死所以他們認為不宜用那個殺人去認定或是加高到死刑但是我這邊也是請法務部能夠思考幾個點第一個當然是說現在人民有這種需求那我們其實是可以多溝通"},{"start":13327.592,"end":13353.572,"text":"我知道法務部的這個論述在立法紀錄上面確實也有這樣子的學說的採取第二個是328條那個強盜致死啊他後面的致死也是屬於過失啊但是328條他是有死刑耶所以我國法制上面不是說只有殺人罪有死刑是我國法制本來就有加重結果犯後面的過失造成他死亡也是有死刑"},{"start":13354.392,"end":13378.849,"text":"所以說這兩個東西是一樣嘛就是凌虐致死跟強盜致死兩個東西其實它的結構上面是類似的那為什麼強盜致死我國法治上面要死這個我知道這個立法技術的一個問題但是我們認為這個凌虐如果又殺人的話或者主席講說加重結果犯下那個強盜強盜後性侵的那就是加重結果犯下221條等等那些"},{"start":13379.489,"end":13404.851,"text":"那個我們可以再來做一個一個但是我想這個林立仁致死這個就是很可惡的但是我們是拜託法務部就是不要採的就是我不要或是拒絕溝通就是說你大家來溝通這個我們現在就在溝通而且我們是回應整個一個民意的一個意見我想這個我們非常重視這些的民眾的一個聲音我想我們有共同目標法務部是跟"},{"start":13405.652,"end":13420.213,"text":"我們的民意是站在一起的我們是沒辦法去容忍這種改革命案這種可以在怎麼會有這種的人審公問呢我們沒辦法去容忍所以在這個立法上我們會再做講我們是希望能夠再更重"},{"start":13421.334,"end":13438.201,"text":"這個我想跟委員報告我們有這樣的一個態度我還是拜託部長參考一下啦剛剛其實我們的中線召委也講出了在別的立法例當中他一樣還是可以把死刑作為量刑這個我們會再研究這也是本來我們研究的選項我知道聽到這句話我就比較的內容嘛但是我跟你講部長我先謝謝你啦因為剛剛說"},{"start":13445.023,"end":13466.868,"text":"這個納入死刑說在研議這句話我基本上我接受但是拜託腳步跟時程因為我經常過去跟法務部我們有這麼多的一些互動經常最後就是有個頭那就沒個尾那我希望這件事情能夠順應我們的台灣人民對於所謂公平正義司法正義的期待我最後還是做一點結論"},{"start":13468.174,"end":13491.968,"text":"今天不只是凱凱案是這樣其實我最近看了很多案子我自己都看得很搖頭比方說那杜成哲詐騙集團拘禁凌虐六十一個人耶六十一個人其中有三個被活活的虐殺結果也是免死啊那我都不知道到底我們的司法怎麼跟這六十一個"},{"start":13493.39,"end":13506.742,"text":"被他凌虐的人交代怎麼跟那個三個被虐死的交代其中一個媽媽的故事我到現在都是看得很難過他媽媽臨終前還拖旁邊的人跟他兒子說對不起媽媽沒有辦法好好再照顧你"},{"start":13508.164,"end":13530.366,"text":"我要說今天台灣我們的司法行事政策真的已經走向是在保護加害人然後去踐踏被害人這種情況這也是為什麼今天會提出來所謂的反廢死公投當然我知道法務部也好或是很多主張說那是大法官的判決我們今天不可以用公投抱歉這一點我是不能接受的"},{"start":13531.047,"end":13548.193,"text":"第一個公投法並沒有說憲法判決不能做公投私下他講的是重大政策可以做公投私下第二個是我不認為大法官高於人民啊所以大法官今天設了所謂的十八同仁陣來去讓判死越來越難為什麼今天杜成澤的判死這麼難這個詐欺集團判死這麼難"},{"start":13550.894,"end":13571.153,"text":"也是跟大法官的憲法判決有關啊更何況還有一件事馬上被認證的就是施奪獎女老師的案子五度判死最後被免死定驗就在大法官憲法判決之後第一時間最高法院出來直接引述說是大法官按照大法官最新憲法判決的意思所以才改判免死定驗的"},{"start":13572.43,"end":13594.363,"text":"這一點是我自己一直放在心上啦那包括凱凱案的這些事情我剛剛很謝謝部長部長說願意來去做行動上的一個考量那這一點總是一個好的開始但不管怎麼樣講今天真的不能讓我們行事政策扭曲到這個地方非常背離人民的情感讓我們善良的老百姓覺得沒有受到保護謝謝部長謝謝您"},{"start":13597.486,"end":13615.551,"text":"好謝謝部長好謝謝那個羅委員那現在我們請蔡易瑜有委員蔡易瑜蔡易瑜徐欣盈徐欣盈徐欣盈賴世寶賴世寶賴世寶鄭振前鄭振前鄭振前好現在我們請王宏威委員發言"},{"start":13624.602,"end":13644.435,"text":"好謝謝主席我請司法院副秘書長 麻煩副秘書長 法務部政部長 政部長NCC主委 NCC主委代理主委 代理主委還有中華電信副總好"},{"start":13652.423,"end":13670.728,"text":"其實今天我們主要是談在這個簡訊就是霸團組織顯然是已經很精準的針對了地區發了這個相關的簡訊那這個簡訊到底有沒有違反相關的個資法那麼根據自由時報的報導"},{"start":13672.728,"end":13700.991,"text":"自由時報報導引述司法院說有違法可以提起救濟那司法院說近期各地進行的公職人員罷免案目前尚處於罷免選罷法規定的提議或連署階段民眾收到罷免連署簡訊可能涉及違反各自法那我想請問一下我們的副秘書長請問一下到底有沒有違反各自法"},{"start":13710.961,"end":13724.123,"text":"請說這個部分我們剛剛在報告中有說就是還是要看到看他的整個那個程序因為司法這個最後事實上是在那個尾端所以要看那個個案所呈現的這些狀況才能夠做就按照這個我這個解訊內容給你看啦"},{"start":13725.438,"end":13752.845,"text":"好 給你看 因為它這個是有它有鎖定區域嘛它不會到台北來讓我去憑證去去簽聯署書啊它也不會讓我去新店簽聯署書啊那它的發送是有鎖定在它的選區這樣有沒有違反各自法那個報告委員 這剛才不管是哪一端 但是最後這個行為有沒有違反各自法"},{"start":13754.81,"end":13758.873,"text":"各自有被受到保護嗎?那自由時報是假新聞嗎?他說霸團簡訊可能涉嫌違法所以你現在不敢講了?"},{"start":13780.546,"end":13787.277,"text":"你不敢講 請問一下那個 法務部政部長像這個行為有沒有違反各自法"},{"start":13788.952,"end":13810.284,"text":"這個行為有沒有 這要就個案的認定那是個資法有沒有那個處罰是要違反那個第六條還有第十五條 第十六條 第十九跟第二十條就是說對違反那個個資的 因為個資的收集處理利用都有法定的一個嚴格的標準嘛那你違反的話 這個如果說有人違反的話"},{"start":13812.906,"end":13817.037,"text":"這個我的意思就是說他可以很精準的在這個區域裡面發送給這個區域的"},{"start":13821.669,"end":13845.868,"text":"這個就是簡訊發送給這個區域的受眾那這沒有各自外洩的問題嗎這個委員報告就是我們就看個人資料的定義個人資料保護法上的個人資料的定義好部長我要問那個自然人還有一些什麼呢比如說出生年月日身分證號碼電話號碼等等可以直接間接識別該個人的資料也就是說"},{"start":13846.869,"end":13859.16,"text":"如果單純的一個電話號碼我們沒辦法知道這個是誰的如果說那個簡訊說麻煩你來支持這樣才有違反個資法這個就是很明確的個人資料如果只有一個單純電話沒辦法去辨識這到底是誰的電話無法辨識這個要往前辨識無法辨識他有沒有違反個資可能在這部分"},{"start":13873.773,"end":13892.753,"text":"可能這要再往前去推是不是有沒有提供那部長我請問一下像這個案例因為民眾都很緊張那我們會針對這有沒有違反個資法來做調查嗎只要有人來告訴告發那個訴訟人228告訴我們就來查到底有沒有違反個資法"},{"start":13893.598,"end":13902.848,"text":"好 那我想請問一下 因為像我是被罷免人 我們很多委員是被罷免人那假使被罷免人 這是罷團發送的嘛那假使被罷免人針對這個區域 也發送這樣的簡訊就是說 哎呀 拜託 你要出來投票 要投不同意罷免 請問一下"},{"start":13915.777,"end":13925.039,"text":"要不要辦所以我有很擔心的事啊因為現在都是辦藍不辦綠嘛所以我們擔心的是罷團這樣子都沒問題司法院也說看個案然後法務部也說看個案然後等到呢等到被罷免人也同樣的狀況也同樣的去買簡訊的時候那可能這不一樣嘛這不是說讓你去連署嘛就是拜託你投票啊請你投票不同意罷免啊哇 就有事了"},{"start":13945.023,"end":13946.106,"text":"因為你們的雙標是很厲害的啊這個如果各支法如果說這個街道檢修各支法的"},{"start":13952.968,"end":13974.605,"text":"的問題的話 那是屬於接到簡訊的人接到簡訊的人 他是被害人嘛對 民眾就告發啦民眾怎麼沒有告發你看他還提供簡訊給大家 對不對看看有沒有成立他怎麼樣的一個到底是怎麼個人資料的外洩的一個問題所以啊 部長 會不會雙標啊不會雙標啦 這個"},{"start":13978.748,"end":13990.44,"text":"這個辦案本來就是依照證據來認定犯罪事實因為你們雙標很厲害啊沒有沒有 這個委員我們不能夠這樣直接就給他貼這個雙標這個我們要維持一個純淨的一個辦案空間有證據就判嘛 那我們會辦與不判之間在於你們嘛來 那個我想請問一下NCC因為有關於簡訊"},{"start":14003.976,"end":14030.022,"text":"集中在特殊條件這個是在這個簡訊這些商業行為非常普遍比如說因為其實一般商業用的更廣啊比如說有些建商我做一個建案我就是要有些特殊的有些特殊我就是鎖定在這個區域的或者是呢比如說一些投資理財的當然投資理財"},{"start":14033.524,"end":14057.015,"text":"詐騙簡訊最多嘛所以呢現在我知道你們有一個防止詐騙有關於這些簡訊就是這些電信資料的管理的指引嘛有沒有有嘛對不對那這個這個當然它原來的出發點是防止詐騙因為詐騙行為太多所以你們這個指引請問一下上路了沒有"},{"start":14058.814,"end":14082.963,"text":"112年就上路了持續在修正當中商業簡訊如果有網址連結有電話號碼還有短碼部分我們都會來封阻除非他經過驗證符合正當實驗在指引裡面請問一下在指引裡面他如果去限定他的特殊條件我剛講他的特殊條件別說他必須我限定在桃園"},{"start":14084.904,"end":14112.474,"text":"地區我限定在台北市或台北市的哪幾個區域或者我限定在他比如說他有過投資行為類似這種商業化的這種簡訊請問一下如果在這些的就是販賣簡訊院就是幫企業去那個投放這簡訊這個在不在你們指引的這個管理的範圍裡面"},{"start":14113.393,"end":14132.579,"text":"不在但是在原來的我們地形化企業有要求還有個資法本身也有要求它是你要提供LBS服務必須要用戶同意才可以提供才可以提供對就是經過合法或使用者同意那我請問一下因為這個事件呢今天有那個什麼請問一下你們說呢"},{"start":14137.236,"end":14163.687,"text":"因為調查了解三家行動通信業者都沒有提供簡訊發送門號清單及基地台區域廣播技術LBS給簡訊代發業者就是說我們的三大電信業者都沒有提供那我請問一下這些簡訊代發業者的資料拿來的那就要問簡訊代發業者手上的資料其他公司是如何提供資料給他如何他可以把它歸類對不對"},{"start":14165.117,"end":14188.099,"text":"那就請教公司的資訊來源就不知道怎麼來源來來來我請中華電信喔因為他們是你的客戶嘛來 是林副總因為你們是上游嘛中游就是這些簡訊代發業者所以你們沒有給他們他們資料哪來的"},{"start":14190.271,"end":14204.145,"text":"怎麼生出來的其實他們的資料我們大概無從去了解無從要求無從理解 不知道他怎麼來的他自己可以生成出來"},{"start":14205.046,"end":14223.371,"text":"跟蘿妍報告每一家公司他在經營相關的業務都有他的神通廣大他應該都要依照各自保護法來做相關的當然啦我就是問你嘛既然他是你的客戶你沒有給他這個資料那他資料哪來的怎麼從天上掉下來還是從地底下竄上來"},{"start":14225.889,"end":14235.353,"text":"哪來的 不知道電信公司在這個案裡面就是純粹的網路通訊傳送的這個角色都不知道齁好 那請問一下 NCC 主管機關請問一下按照我們的電信業者說我們要給他們但是簡訊代發業者卻有這些資料你們查過沒"},{"start":14247.574,"end":14274.65,"text":"我們的職權範圍 作用法的職權範圍內就是電信業者這部分我們調查過兩次行政調查那簡單再跟委員回報 剛剛說有兩個層次 第一個層次是用戶同意LPS 第二個層次是A傳給B傳給C C是電信公司最後傳給使用者 B是簡訊大發業者A最上一端的行銷公司 他為什麼會有資料要由這個行銷公司來說明 他要負這個法律責任 他這要怎麼取得是合法還是"},{"start":14276.191,"end":14302.097,"text":"那所以這個調查責任是不是在NCC不是不在NCC在哪裡啊在它對應的相關主管機關它對應主管機關是什麼它是行銷公司目前初步應該是經濟部經濟部齁經濟部應該包商包海齁那因為它違法個資法的問題最近法務部大量在查違反個資法的問題啊那所以請問一下部長法務部部長這該不該你們查"},{"start":14306.312,"end":14319.315,"text":"反正那個有涉及到犯罪的有經過告訴高發等等的那當然我們會啟動調查那不管不要說什麼個資啦如果說還有什麼其他的犯罪包括像這種可能涉及過去有查過嗎"},{"start":14321.716,"end":14323.178,"text":"過去有查過嗎這個我沒有統計的資料怎麼會沒有查過 這麼多詐騙很多詐騙就是透過簡訊的詐騙我剛剛講說簡訊 簡訊的問題我剛剛講說 簡訊這些所發的簡訊有"},{"start":14343.88,"end":14356.183,"text":"被設定特殊條件 並不是在選舉啊其實過去選舉 我直接說 我們也常常有很多的政治人物啊就是到了中秋節啊 過年啊 他也會發送簡訊嘛給你拜年啊 什麼之類的那在一般的商業行為裡面也非常多那最氾濫的確實就是詐騙 因為最害怕的就是詐騙嘛"},{"start":14368.405,"end":14374.651,"text":"所以照理說你們應該早就針對這一些因為防詐騙早就應該啟動相關的調查怎麼會到現在都告訴我好像沒有人在管而且也不知道他的資料哪裡來的你關心的就是那個詐欺的那部長根據你們過去的調查因為我剛剛講說詐騙最多嘛"},{"start":14393.487,"end":14399.31,"text":"根據你們過去的調查這些點訊代發業者如果有這些特殊條件他的資料哪裡來的因為NC說他只查電訊業者電訊業者說我們沒有啊我們沒有提供啊所以你都不知道犯罪集團的問題當他變成詐騙詐騙行為這麼多的時候他已經不是個案他變通案啊請問他資料哪裡來的"},{"start":14421.412,"end":14426.015,"text":"這個要每個犯罪的你也不知道這個每個犯罪類型疑問都三不知我不是疑問三不知這個我沒辦法跟你講說到底是哪個案件是從哪裡來的所以這個有些是有些廣告頭髮商有些是脫波的人是給的嘛那有些算什麼收集的就是最原始的那個"},{"start":14439.505,"end":14450.651,"text":"那個前端的那個是誰收集處理他把這些賣掉所以呢我在這邊喔不要為了cover這件事情來部長不要著急喔我要講的就是說不要為了cover這件事情這個事實上在簡訊就是這些商業簡訊裡面已經非常慣常慣常的這些資料就是他常常是用特殊因為他要精準行銷嘛"},{"start":14467.62,"end":14476.587,"text":"因為他不能海量發送海量發送實在太貴了他要精準行銷所以這個照理講尤其我們詐騙這麼多你們早就應該去整理出他的樣態啊怎麼到現在什麼都不知道好我這邊只有兩個要求第一個要求像這樣子如果你們確定他是有違反各司法之嫌那你們該調查就要調查不要為了去cover哪些集團"},{"start":14497.262,"end":14502.504,"text":"第二個 請你不要半藍不半綠不要半藍不半綠我們同樣的同樣到時候 霸團可以用被罷免的人也同樣可以用"},{"start":14513.823,"end":14537.035,"text":"是不是 應該是這樣的一個標準所以我要講的就是說該調查要調查第二個在調查的時候就請你不要再雙標了我知道你今天下午要開一個記者會我都不曉得你們到底要有什麼樣的資深記者會是要告訴大家我們這一年司法來的豐功偉業就是"},{"start":14538.395,"end":14542.659,"text":"關了一個在野黨的主席對不對然後抄了八個在野黨的黨部關了多少的人家黨部的主委逃掉多少的經濟的重要的這些經濟犯我不曉得你今天下午是不是要公佈這些啦當民意對於司法的公信力滿一度這麼低的時候"},{"start":14566.276,"end":14580.968,"text":"請你們拿出真正的民眾關心的這個證物而不是在繼續的為政治服務我不是關心幾個案件我們是關心所有的被害人我不是關心幾個案件我們關心的可多了"},{"start":14581.468,"end":14585.652,"text":"所以剛才因為有限時間關係像剛剛羅志強委員所提的反正我們呢我們黨團也已經提出相關的這個法案的修正也希望法務部能夠採納能夠回應13萬多人在網路上大家的一個期待這個情況我相信這部分我們就在這已經在修法了我們會更者的情況能夠更加保護我們的這些的"},{"start":14608.252,"end":14636.077,"text":"兒少 我們絕對不能允許這些的剛才那個主席也跟我們講 我們那個包括是不是真的要殺人 或者是一個致死的是不是在可以我們都在研究如果0月7歲以下0月7歲以下兒童致死是不是應該可以處以死刑 或者無期徒刑因為剛才也講喔對不對 你淫虐這麼小的小孩你就知道一定對他造成非常大的傷害嘛委員我的愛心 我對同情我絕對不會輸給你的啦"},{"start":14639.147,"end":14660.288,"text":"我們現在在講法耶你不是在跟我選舉啊這個不是部長你不需要有這麼多的政治語言所以我剛才講說因為對這些兒童我們真的是天理這些的殘害真是天理燃容我想這個叫我們一直在所以 寧願幼童就是我說七歲以下七歲以下的寧願幼童"},{"start":14661.669,"end":14681.88,"text":"這個其實不是叫過失啊這就是故意了嘛對不對這個絕對不是故意的喔好所以我們因為我們這個可能委員不知道那個起訴的法條他會召開公聽會 排公聽會到時候也會審查相關法案希望法務部拿出最大最大的誠意這個委員妳放心 這部分我們會用"},{"start":14684.461,"end":14697.271,"text":"以最周全的保護的一個方式我想這個是回憶名義啦我們一定會回憶名義 這個請委員放心那我想這個對兒童少年的一個保護我們一定要不遺餘力那我們也謝謝委員帶他一起來來推動好 謝謝好 謝謝王委員那下一位我們請葉元芝委員進行詢問"},{"start":14719.508,"end":14731.862,"text":"主委好 麻煩請NCC麻煩NCC代理主委主委好 還是想要先問一下簡訊的問題因為很多人收到這個簡訊之後都發現說他並沒有提供資料給那個霸團"},{"start":14739.588,"end":14761.779,"text":"那這應該是侵略應該是侵犯個資沒錯吧先跟你確定一下這要個案來調查個案調查那比如說我現在就秀兩個個案給你看有一個他是說他收到一個什麼下一代歲月靜好是因為你的負重前行這就是霸團傳給他的行銷簡訊但他認為他根本沒有簽署任何的文件霸團怎麼取得他的電話那這個個案是有侵犯個資嗎"},{"start":14763.38,"end":14779.091,"text":"這個要由相關對應的主管機關來調查說明你沒辦法啊我NC範圍內沒辦法跨越權限來做但是因為剛剛根據很多委員跟相關機關的詢答這應該是有啦因為電話我們看下一頁電話應該是屬於各自的一部分在下一頁"},{"start":14780.049,"end":14793.096,"text":"那我現在要請教一下因為三大電信公司是不是都已經說他們不會已經沒有提供LBS了沒錯吧LBS是有但是要用戶同意他才會提供要同意才提供對但是以我剛剛那個個案來講的話他是應該是沒有同意嗎"},{"start":14798.839,"end":14810.912,"text":"對不對因為他本人並不知道嘛這兩個層次MBS要用途同意另外一個是說發送簡訊的源頭端他就精準掌握這些資訊那都跟電信公司無關那就是要問那個源頭端"},{"start":14813.427,"end":14829.435,"text":"好我再請教一下因為我們的這個簡訊的風險管理措施這邊就有提到說這個是去年10月公佈的對不對對去年10月公佈好那這個公佈之後對於LBS的管制有更嚴格吧"},{"start":14829.975,"end":14850.416,"text":"LBS那是在各自一般法徵本來電信公司必須要依據各自法的規定你要使用目的外的利用必須要用戶同意或依法他目前是用使用者來同意來提供所以如果當事人明確拒絕接受行銷的話是可以拒絕對不對對沒錯他已經收到了要怎麼拒絕"},{"start":14853.45,"end":14875.309,"text":"就是說今天是這樣子啦就是說因為這新聞爆出來嘛所以很多人就想說我很討厭這種行為嘛我不想要收到類似這種罷免的簡訊那他想要拒絕那現在的拒絕機制是什麼這個upup的廣告其實三大電信的官網都有其實可以打所以要打到電信公司主動去告知上網上網都可以去登錄辦理"},{"start":14876.694,"end":14895.204,"text":"就要他們主動去拒絕去上網登記拒絕那這個部分NCT有幫忙宣導嗎還是說要三大電信公司宣導說因為現在有很多人收到這種簡訊不甘其擾如果你不想要介紹的話你可以上網去登錄你沒有宣導嗎我們也會繼續再加強宣導"},{"start":14898.186,"end":14919.302,"text":"好那第二個就是那電信公司跟一般的這種用戶有沒有簽定型化契約就是說他以後拒絕的時候他可以直接在契約擺明如果電信公司違法的話要負什麼樣的責任有嗎就你的了解是要負什麼責任如果他已經拒絕像類似這種他通通都不要然後也有簽合約可是他還是收到"},{"start":14919.622,"end":14936.793,"text":"各自的部分如果他電信公司沒有照的話他就沒有照的錯誤他就違反個資法20條那個非公司機關的一些不正當的利用不正當的利用那違反個資法嘛會那個當然那個檢方會去調查嘛那我現在講的是說那他跟電信公司之間的民事責任是什麼"},{"start":14938.506,"end":14960.667,"text":"民事責任看他們的契約你有審視過那個契約嗎因為現在大家都偏向在那個形式部分但是因為NCC主要是要管那個電信公司可能電信公司也要負一定的企業責任就是說那如果還是譬如說剛剛講說這個責任可能在行銷公司但是電信公司也做行銷公司的其中一個工具嘛"},{"start":14961.027,"end":14981.712,"text":"那也連帶的影響到這個消費者嘛所以應該是也有連帶責任那這一塊的責任是什麼這一塊的責任其實是以電信管理法第四條電信行為的發生效果如發送人來負責以今天這種態度我是說簽了約那他也明確拒絕了他也明確拒絕然後但是他也是收到"},{"start":14982.796,"end":15003.845,"text":"那這怎麼這個NCC是怎麼去如果他有明確的他有收到那就是中華電機這方面理由上會有一些責任那你們有請那個電競公司加強這一塊嗎我們持續都有要求他們要因為這個事件我想要問就是說這個事件發生之後NCC到底做了什麼"},{"start":15004.485,"end":15026.174,"text":"我們做兩次行政調查除了調查之外有沒有去防避這件事情嗎第一個我剛剛問說你們有沒有這樣宣導嗎說大家如果不想收到的話比如說你剛剛講說可以上網登錄但大家知不知道可以上網登錄嗎第二件事情就是他明明可以明確拒絕那在合約上怎麼保障他拒絕權利如果電信公司違反這規定的時候他應該負責什麼樣的賠償"},{"start":15028.331,"end":15046.406,"text":"根本沒報告因為我如果問說什麼刑事責任大家又會推說什麼個案調查這些的就沒有沒有我現在講的是主管機關可以作為的部分有我們去在修訂三大電信業者的各自宣告事項裡頭也有發佈相關的一些FB跟新聞稿就告訴他們說就是這個事件之後"},{"start":15047.327,"end":15061.584,"text":"我們是在事件之前就通案性那還是發生的嘛所以你們有沒有再進一步的作為有沒有我們應該這兩天會再進行再進一步的宣導說這個up out的機制好 謝謝那接下來想問一下那個中選會中選會"},{"start":15066.216,"end":15085.905,"text":"這個是有人傳給我的就是一個聯署書然後他是反映說有人找他去簽名但是那個罷免聯署書上面把他的名字還有出生年月日身份證字號跟戶籍地都已經打好了然後去找他簽名請問一下這個有沒有違反個資 中委會"},{"start":15089.113,"end":15107.342,"text":"這個是要看他如何取得那些資料那是另外一個問題沒有那個當事人說他不知道他並沒有找到簽名的人他根本不認識啊那這樣有沒有侵犯個資如果說是個資的資料的來源如果是非法蒐集的話那什麼樣叫非法蒐集"},{"start":15108.789,"end":15137.498,"text":"那當然就是有可能是如果說以連署的而言就是不是他並沒有提供給找他連署的人這個資料嗎那人家居然有他的資料然後找上門來找他簽名有可能那中學會有沒有去查這個狀況有沒有我沒有見到個案的相關所以如果說有個案跟中研會檢舉的話中研會會去查是不是那如果最後發現說這個是有違反格子會踢掉嗎"},{"start":15140.636,"end":15165.158,"text":"如果是偽造不過重點不是說這些資料而是說你當事人你是不是有簽名蓋章是否簽名蓋章所以這個跟中選會踢不踢要無關應該是這樣講因為中選會只認定的是說他是不是本人簽名但是有沒有侵犯克制這個就是要問問法務部其他的資料我問一下部長好不好請教一下部長"},{"start":15168.976,"end":15177.994,"text":"部長如果是這樣的話有違反個資嗎有沒有違反個資是個案的做一個對我現在就問另外那個就委員關心的這個個資的蒐集處理"},{"start":15180.902,"end":15204.48,"text":"那個處理那個利用那個我們看這個收集就要第15條第16條以及第19條第20條這個收集處理利用要合乎這四個法條以及第六條敏感性的個人資料的一些法定我的問題很明確就是說如果有一個人在家裡面然後有的人拿幫他把連鎖的所有資料都打好來找他簽名"},{"start":15205.541,"end":15231.587,"text":"那他覺得我們並沒有提供資料給你過啊你怎麼會我的資料叫我簽名這樣有沒有違反個資這個有嗎這個是19條的一個問題那如果說來家愛家愛護去弄我認為這個有沒有違反個資這可以另外再不是來家愛護他資料都打好連那個身份證字號跟出生年月日都有如果說這個個資的一個個資的一個所有人個人資料的所有人他認為這樣有違反"},{"start":15232.947,"end":15252.167,"text":"第19條的一個規定的話他可以沒有 法條規定跟他認不認為無關我現在是問部長你覺得這樣子有沒有違反你只要講有沒有違反就好這個個字是怎麼來的他就覺得 他就在懷疑這是怎麼來的他懷疑的話當然可以提出告訴他認為是有犯罪嫌疑他可以提出告訴那我們就會辦案 就會啟動偵辦所以這樣子應該是有吧"},{"start":15254.83,"end":15282.969,"text":"那這個要個案的我沒辦法跟你講這就是有或沒有這樣子還沒有我沒有講沒有我說這樣子這樣沒辦法認定嗎這個不能用這個整個辦案不能說直接就這樣認定但是這個如果說那個被害那個個資的所有人他認為有這樣的得中因為我的個資可能有受到侵害囉那這樣的話當然他就可以來搞那部長那我順便問一下我想問一下那凱爾案因為"},{"start":15283.729,"end":15289.175,"text":"後來你最新的說法是有十幾萬的人在公共平台最新的說法就是說我們沒辦法去接受這種我都還沒問問題我們這是人神共憤"},{"start":15300.366,"end":15318.55,"text":"我想這個大家我們要以最大的一個力量去讓這些法制做一個完美來充分來保護這些兒童早上您的這個我因為有看新聞報導的啦我們就有新聞稿然後那個不是說我早上改成好沒關係你後來的說法是說你不要那麼緊張我都還沒有問問題部長不要那麼緊張我都還沒有問問你知道我要問什麼嗎"},{"start":15326.144,"end":15347.43,"text":"你說凱凱命案我就闡述說我都還沒有問我的問題我只是提到說我想要關心這個案子你就啪啪講一大堆我都還沒講我要問什麼我是想問說因為第一時間那個時候有十幾萬人在公共平台上面表示說希望略同致死能夠納入唯一死刑然後或者是無期徒刑不得假釋嘛那當時法務部是說不可能嘛"},{"start":15347.87,"end":15369.605,"text":"但後來又改說要研議中嘛那我是想問說法務部後來為什麼會有這樣的一個改變中間是考量到什麼所以一開始是覺得不可能後來又覺得可以研議那你們考量的點是什麼這個本來就是對向來對我們對兒童少年的這些權力的保護我們是不予一例那為什麼一開始說不行那這個沒有說這個是一個公共裡面的一個"},{"start":15376.448,"end":15404.433,"text":"選項的一個問題這個我們看裡面的內文的話我們是沒有這樣的一個講的喔所以你從頭到尾都沒有說不行我們可以講說這個叫延益喔我們可以說一開始是說不行嘛然後後來說延益中嘛那你的轉折的點在哪裡這個本來就是我們就是一項你一項都在一項就是我們向來就是要充分落實保障的這些的權利那為什麼一開始不行"},{"start":15405.053,"end":15421.68,"text":"我們沒有說這個是一個選項的一個問題但是我們這個之前是我們沒有矛盾的沒有矛盾所以從頭到尾都是說演繹中我們是把著重在我們著重在做現狀的法律的一個說明"},{"start":15424.101,"end":15442.853,"text":"但我想這個我想那麼多人的聲音我們一定看到了所以之後是有可能就是終身監禁不得假釋這有可能的你們在研議中嘛對不對有可能的嘛你們朝這個方向是不是這個我想委員齁這個我們剛才我有說明過齁這個"},{"start":15444.734,"end":15464.614,"text":"這個零類的很多的類型齁那剛才有講說是不是可以至此可以我們一個一個一個增加一個死刑的一個一個選項因為現在最高是無期徒刑嘛那另外這個是這些零類一開始又以零類當殺人手段這就到殺人罪了殺人罪這個本來就我們現在講的是286條啦"},{"start":15466.135,"end":15471.26,"text":"286條 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杨茜茜"},{"start":1868.439,"end":1869.309,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":1918.295,"end":1918.376,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":2033.851,"end":2050.502,"text":"好請組密報告出席人數報告全體會出席委員13人以足法定人數現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議事錄及報告事項第二案及第三案預算解凍等24案"},{"start":2052.011,"end":2072.666,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期經濟委員會第十二次全體委員會議事錄時間114年5月8日星期四九十二分至十一時十七分地點黃樓101會議室出席委員林幹化等14人列席委員羅明財等13人列席人員個人資料保護委員會籌備處主任李士德等主席蔡佳琪委員役於"},{"start":2073.226,"end":2094.225,"text":"报告事项 宣读上次会议事录 决定 确定讨论事项 审查行政行情审议 个人资料保护法 部分条件修正查案等事案讨论事项 合并询答 个人资料保护委员会筹备处主任李士德报告后 委员林道化等10人提出质询 均由个人资料保护委员会筹备处主任李士德等及其答复"},{"start":2095.246,"end":2109.439,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場者外 均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員 李毅林 謝一鳳 張家俊及陳昌明 所提書面質詢列入紀錄 刊登公報書面質詢和問及答案部分 請相關單位予以周內書面答覆並複製本會決議 詢答結束 並定期進行審查 散會"},{"start":2118.567,"end":2133.451,"text":"主體114年度中央政府總預算案有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等18案1.農業部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減算該部一般事務費預算凍結200萬元書面報告案2.減算該部一般行政預算凍結1000萬元書面報告案3.農業"},{"start":2140.273,"end":2147.836,"text":"減送該部農業管理預算凍結2億元輸入報告案4減送該部社會保險業務預算凍結100萬元輸入報告案5減送該部農民福利業務預算凍結100萬元輸入報告案6"},{"start":2155.198,"end":2173.952,"text":"减送林业及自然保育署及所属委判份预算冻结200万元书面报告案7.减送林业及自然保育署及所属林业发展预算冻结2000万元书面报告案8.减送农村发展及水土保持署水土保持发展预算冻结1000万元书面报告案9.减送茶及饮料作物"},{"start":2174.713,"end":2189.092,"text":"改良廠總廠能簽之環評等先期規劃預算凍結500萬元輸入報告案10減送漁業署及所屬漁業科技研究發展預算凍結300萬元輸入報告案11減送漁業署及所屬漁業管理預算凍結500萬元輸入報告案12"},{"start":2191.175,"end":2207.388,"text":"减送渔业署及所属渔业发展预算冻结1000万元数目报告案13减送动植物防疫检疫署及所属动植物防疫检疫防检疫管理预算冻结500万元数目报告案14减送农业金融署农业金融机构管理预算冻结200万元数目报告案15"},{"start":2209.009,"end":2218.694,"text":"減送農糧署農業管理預算凍結3000萬元 書面包括案16減送農田水利署農田水利發展預算凍結500萬元 書面包括案17減送農業部綜合規劃預算凍結1000萬元 書面包括案18減送農業部業務費預算凍結450萬元 書面包括案"},{"start":2228.434,"end":2243.104,"text":"處理114年度中央政府總預算有關公平交友委員會主管預算凍結案等六案一公平交友委員會喊後114年度中央政府總預算決議檢訟第二幕第三節法務及行政救濟業務預算凍結50萬元輸入報告案二檢訟第二幕第四節綜合規劃及宣導業務預算凍結50萬元輸入報告案三"},{"start":2250.714,"end":2275.059,"text":"檢証資訊業務及經濟分析產業資料管理預算凍結80萬元書面報告案4.檢証第二幕第一節公平交易業務限制競爭行為調查處理預算凍結100萬元書面報告案5.檢証第二幕第二節不公平競爭行為調查處理及多層次傳銷管理預算凍結50萬元書面報告案6.檢証第二幕第五節真正擬定及國際交流業務預算凍結100萬元書面報告案 宣導揚平"},{"start":2277.574,"end":2283.665,"text":"好那我們現在處理兩個第一個就是義式路請問各位委員上次會義式路有錯誤"},{"start":2285.424,"end":2310.87,"text":"好那議事錄確定那第二個我們來處理報告事項的第二案及第三案分別為農業部預算解凍案第一案及第十至第十八案以及公平教育委員會預算解凍案第一案至第六案當時的決議是提出訴願報告後始得動之現在訴願報告已經送達預算得以動之請問各位委員對於這個得以動之有異議"},{"start":2313.043,"end":2313.504,"text":"好沒有的話我們就通過並理據報告提報院會"},{"start":2321.837,"end":2348.855,"text":"喔要收音齁好那先用麥克風那我再問一次齁好針對我剛剛講的農業部預算解凍案以及公平教育委員會預算解凍案書面報告的部分因為決議是提出書面報告後使得動之那我們是不是這部分先得與動之各位委員有異議沒有好沒有的話就通過好那我們現在繼續進行討論事項請一併宣讀"},{"start":2352.657,"end":2364.282,"text":"討論事項1.審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等12案1.農業部函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送該部業務費預算凍結30%專案報告案2.減送該"},{"start":2370.864,"end":2384.016,"text":"農業部農業科技研究發展預算凍結2000萬元專案報告案3.檢証農業部建置我國寵物管理及產業健全發展計畫預算凍結10%專案報告案4.檢証農業部補助農業特別收入基金預算凍結5億元專案報告案5.檢証農業部農民保險業務"},{"start":2392.848,"end":2403.371,"text":"預算凍結1000萬元專案報告案6減送林業及自然保育署及所屬業務費預算凍結30%專案報告案7減送農村發展及水土保質署業務費預算凍結10%專案報告案8減送漁業署及所屬業務費預算凍結30%專案報告案9減送動植物防疫檢疫署及所屬業務費預算凍結30%專案報告案10減送農糧署及所屬業務費預算凍結30%專案報告案11"},{"start":2421.636,"end":2447.99,"text":"减送农田水利署业务费预算冻结30%专案报告案12减送农田水利署农田水利跨域整合永续发展计划预算冻结10%专案报告案2审查114年度中央政府总预算有关公平交易委员会主管预算冻结案等二案1公平交易委员会罕会114年度中央政府总预算决议减送业务费预算冻结30%专案报告案2"},{"start":2450.344,"end":2474.357,"text":"檢訟第二戶第一節第一三級產業獨佔結合及聯合行為之調查處理預算斷絕100萬元專案報告案 宣布案例好那我們現在我先介紹我們今天與會的委員列席的委員以及我們在場的官員那首先有我們陳廷飛陳委員還有我們邱毅迎邱委員那我們農業部部長陳俊記陳部長"},{"start":2479.459,"end":2500.375,"text":"還有公平教育委員會我們的代理主任委員陳志明陳代理主委還有我們行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員張正輝好那以及我們農業部以及公平會的相關的機關都有一併的列席那本日議程所列討論事項有"},{"start":2504.283,"end":2520.295,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬預算所屬主管預算凍結等12案以及公平教育委員會主管預算凍結等兩案我們合併報告及詢答那我們現在先請農業部陳俊記部長就預算解凍等12案合併報告來請我們部長"},{"start":2537.338,"end":2564.98,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生今天應邀向大院經濟委員會就本部主管114年度預算案提出報告那以下僅就這次凍結的30案裡面的12項必須經過委員會專案報告後含重大院在案那各項決議的辦理情形我們列於副表那以下僅就整個的一個解凍案做簡要的一個說明"},{"start":2566.101,"end":2594.135,"text":"在討論案裡面的12案裡面凍結的預算大概是29.83億那包括本部的5案凍結7.86億那所屬機關包括林保署農村水保署漁業署房檢署農糧署及農水署共7個案凍結21.97億那在本部的部分所凍結的部分最主要是業務費農業科技發展向下的預算還有動物保護管理"},{"start":2594.855,"end":2620.528,"text":"以及補助農業特別收入基金農民保險等各項那在業務費部分最主要是針對委辦費還有業用人員的籌金及水電費等那都是我們維持機關運作所需要的那在有關於農業科技的部分那最主要的業務費在執行有關於智慧農業數位轉型以及相關的跨領域工作的一個推動"},{"start":2621.648,"end":2638.309,"text":"至於有關於動物保護管理的部分最主要是在辦理寵物分類分級管理以及強化寵物食品安全引導寵物產業正向發展的必要經費有關於農業特別收入基金的部分"},{"start":2639.19,"end":2663.125,"text":"最主要是辦理農林榆木產業以及農村在活化農產品建國損害的一個相關的作業業務相關的情形針對農業保險業務費的刪除的凍結最主要是在辦理農民參加農保還有健保的相關的保費的補助的行政作業以及撥補農保虧損的法律義務支出所屬的"},{"start":2664.325,"end":2675.257,"text":"機關的棄案凍結總共21.97億那有關於林業保育署的業務費那這些業務費最主要是在執行生態資源的調查還有"},{"start":2678.069,"end":2704.976,"text":"物種的一個保育那野火的一個防救以及外來種入侵的防治等那都是相關的必要工作在農村水保署相關的業務會被凍結10%那最主要是在處理整個置山防洪的相關的計畫還有大規模崩塌及不安定屠殺的相關的計畫的執行那同時更重要是針對崇化區外的緊急農路的設施改善的計畫"},{"start":2705.996,"end":2730.529,"text":"也是我想對於整個的一個訊息已經來了這方面的工作非常重要那至於漁業署的部分的業務會被凍結30%那最主要是針對沿境海及遠洋漁業的漁船專案的收購以及漁業資源養護的管理還有完善水產品溯源制度等必要的一個工作那動植物防疫檢疫署"},{"start":2731.943,"end":2757.936,"text":"的業務費被凍結30%那這些業務費最主要是在推動動植物防疫檢疫的研發技術那維持他的相關的機關的基本行政工作以及屠宰衛生的安全還有參與國際事務等相關的業務農業央署的部分的業務最主動解30%那這項預算最主要是在委辦還有約用人員籌金及水電費等"},{"start":2759.096,"end":2787.188,"text":"那及相關的這些天然災害救助的時候的一些災害準備進行的合撥的業務的需要的那農田水利署的業務費被凍結30%那這些費用最主要是辦理早期農地重發區農水路更新改善及辦理農地重發實施地區的一個規劃還有擴大關區服務等相關的一個技術的服務以及整個的一個平台的一個相關的應用執行"},{"start":2788.388,"end":2798.818,"text":"那農水署的部分特別是在農田水利跨域整合永續發展計畫裡面被凍結10%那這個部分最主要是在處理農業水資源的那個"},{"start":2800.605,"end":2820.958,"text":"儲備空間增進枯水期跟風水期的水資源的調度能力同時也維護農業用水安全來執行相關精準化的智慧灌溉服務等由於本部的各項施政計畫均配合國家政策及農業的發展循序推動"},{"start":2821.638,"end":2848.31,"text":"那前述各項預算攸關於改善農業的一個整體經營環境確保農民的一個權益那同時維護國人的健康為了因應我們本部業務推動的實際需求敬請各位委員予以支持解凍必立本部競速執行相關的計畫以達到照顧農民發展永續農業之目標以上報告敬請各位委員能夠給予支持謝謝"},{"start":2853.507,"end":2862.097,"text":"好謝謝部長的報告那我們現在請公平教育委員會陳志明帶領主委就預算解凍案等兩案合併報告"},{"start":2868.892,"end":2895.043,"text":"主席各位委員先生各位女士先生大家早那今天應邀來向大會大院的經濟委員會就本會114年度預算凍結案提出專案報告那首先要感謝各位委員對本會的支持那本會114年度的預算凍結案總共有八項其中有六項是書面資料的報告那書面已經依照限期把提到大院再案那今天我請就兩案專案報告簡要的跟各位委員來做一下說明"},{"start":2897.016,"end":2917.047,"text":"第一案是有關於本單位預算的業務費被凍結30%總計1276萬8千元那這一部預算業務費部分主要是本會的一些基本行政工作的維持費那除了這個以外這個對本會在執行相關業務特別是聯會行為查處不公平競爭還有相關的結案的審查"},{"start":2919.088,"end":2940.135,"text":"那最近有關不動產的廣告網路廣告等等這個都有相當大的一個一個關聯性那這筆經費有利於我們提升查處的力道並能夠適時的二足不法的行銷手段那因為個案的查處所涉及到的家屬人數多那每個案子的案情也很複雜所需要履行的程序也不一樣所以"},{"start":2940.835,"end":2964.587,"text":"難免在個案的調處上調查上可能會出現時間長短不易的情況那對這一點本會隨時都會很注意這個調查的時效也會精進我們本會的調查作為來提升這個調查的品質跟完成的時效那114年度預算本會目前的執行情形截至4月底本會就稅務部分收入為2485萬7000元佔累積分配數的287%"},{"start":2969.309,"end":2977.931,"text":"那在稅出的部分預算數是3億5,632萬6千元那截至4月底止累計的執行數是1億4,517萬3千元佔累計分配數的88%那第二個專案報告是有關限制競爭行為調查處理其中的第一三級產業獨佔結合及聯合行為的調查處理這部分業務會被凍結了100萬那"},{"start":2994.694,"end":3021.706,"text":"這個案子是被凍結主要是大會大院關切這個台灣主要幾個相關的行動通訊業者結合以後那民眾對於電信服務的品質是不是有提升的一個關心那本會在審理這個相關的結案的時候其實都有負負擔那針對這個支費方案促進市場競爭跟整體經濟利益等各方面我們都有要求業者必須要在結合後按照負擔來履行我們並要求遠傳台灣大哥大定期必須要"},{"start":3022.766,"end":3048.203,"text":"交这个资料给本会作为后续的监督那本会也涵循了国家通讯传播委员会针对业者在结合后以后的通讯品质的相关事项提供一些主管机关的意见那根据国家通讯传播委员会的表示结合以后这些事业在人均的平宽基地台数量以及电波人口涵盖率等观测性的指标在结合后平均来讲"},{"start":3049.003,"end":3063.758,"text":"都有在結合之前的水準有提升那未來本會會持續的監理合併以後業者是不是有按照當初的負擔來確保民眾的權益跟服務的品質不要因此而受到影響那最後"},{"start":3064.238,"end":3074.63,"text":"跟大院報告的是本會是公平交易的執法機關那向來本會都積極來執行公平交易法希望能夠維持市場的公平競爭那114年度的業務費編列了4256萬凍結30%總計1276萬8千元這對本會的業務的運作影響非常的大"},{"start":3083.9,"end":3102.67,"text":"那另外有關這個限制競爭的行為調查處理對第三級產業獨佔的調查部分呢這個是本會的核心業務那為了使本會對這些相關重要的業務能夠積極的查處順利推動相關的業務那希望各位委員今天能夠支持予以解凍那以上報告請委員執教"},{"start":3104.906,"end":3130.66,"text":"好謝謝陳代理主委的報告那我們現在討論事項合併詢答分開處理委員諮詢前原例做以下宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員4分鐘必要時的延長1分鐘非本會委員3分鐘上午10點截止發言登記我們現在先請登記第一位林戴華委員發言"},{"start":3136.728,"end":3137.209,"text":"有請部長請部長"},{"start":3146.392,"end":3152.795,"text":"市場開放這件事情對等關稅所引來的市場開放確實讓我們農民驚慌不已本席也認為在中長期來講農業自由化才能面對全球的挑戰所以有幾個議題第一個從對等關稅的衝擊以及我們現在農產業競爭力提升的問題"},{"start":3172.324,"end":3185.631,"text":"以及這個第三個在國際經驗的分享當中我們是否可以再做一些借鏡以及在續產總原資料網的功能頻繁包括我農業在農業絕招的部分我們的農業雲端大數據的平台你們根本沒有啟動第六個面對極端氣候長年困擾也就是本席現在念茲在茲的就是我大寮美容的這個"},{"start":3198.977,"end":3220.284,"text":"這個水稻的空包蛋這也是跟氣候有關只是你們不認定而已包括之前的美濃山林的這個小番茄的消長你們也不認定它是一個氣候變遷所帶來你們認為是病蟲害好那這個可是極端氣候確實是在發生那你怎麼提供農友更好的方案呢而不是每次我們都該給你藥補助補助當然重要"},{"start":3222.805,"end":3246.71,"text":"但是重點是要防範於未來而不是年復一年的一直在處理同樣的問題啊好 包括這是您催生的國家植物表形體中心這個本席非常的肯定但是你們的做法需要調整好 從零關稅談起人民的恐慌在上週我們在強化社會及國土安全任性特別條例的時候本席就有提到你面對市場的開放我們的容 序"},{"start":3250.711,"end":3269.483,"text":"應該要參考的是國際經驗跟先進技術先進技術當中除了本席一直倡議的這個基因定序這其實只是其中一項而已的精準的榮譽木的產業升級而且利用市場的力量結合政策工具重點是什麼"},{"start":3270.543,"end":3276.485,"text":"縮小我國內農漁牧產業跟國際的生產成本我這樣才能不怕國際競爭但是我們有沒有做到重點是縮小國內我農漁牧產產業的跟國際的生產成本我們農民是不怕苦的我是擔心被國外的低價農產品的價值破壞好 那目前"},{"start":3293.183,"end":3302.227,"text":"爬出從本席做這個國會議員到現在爬出我們現在農產業至今的競爭力的問題是什麼四項第一個農業部資源都投注強調在補助跟補貼補助當然重要他重點是即時性的來保障我的農民但是對於我小農為主的我們的台灣我們我國的農業競爭力的提升是非常有限的第二個問題"},{"start":3319.494,"end":3336.072,"text":"在推動重點我們都是在農民的硬體建設但是在農業的共用基礎設施跟農業的軟實力成效是有限什麼叫做硬體設備我們有沒有補助農機社的改善 有我們要補助人煉 有沒有 有"},{"start":3337.373,"end":3351.901,"text":"我們這次有多了大量的經費補助溫室有沒有有這個都也該做但是我們現在應該要提升了就您這邊累積歷任的部長 委主委所現在你要做的是公共的基礎建設跟農業軟實力那這是你應該要做的"},{"start":3354.602,"end":3380.618,"text":"第三個問題 推動智慧農業我們都是在農業的智慧化也就是說這個成功的案產相對有限喔本席長期主張就是你農業決策你部長跟你所有的一級署管機關的農業決策的智慧化跟精準化有啦 你們有做啦 部本部裡面的行政流程公文啦 財務啦 這你們有做然後放豬 我最在意的就是龍魚"},{"start":3383.199,"end":3408.146,"text":"會 合作社他們的競銷存肥料等甚至會計喔有沒有有沒有整合這樣的雲端平台沒有 我倡議了好久你們也來跟我講了好幾次到現在你們的結論是什麼還是讓各農會去做我講的我不需要農會我講明了 我也要替農會講話你不可以去取他的會籍資料"},{"start":3408.986,"end":3420.754,"text":"這他們最怕的但是你其他的要讓你做農業決策的部分相關的訊息去識別化之後你是可以做的你們現在農糧署這個我們現在這個署長署長上來署長 我忘記你的名字 你叫什麼名字陳俊演其實俊演署長他很認真"},{"start":3435.36,"end":3461.446,"text":"但是呢 我不曉得他帶來 他其實是很瞭解狀況的人利弊得失農民那太少 他都很清楚的啦在業是什麼是什麼 他都很清楚 不好意思但是到你這邊做了決策的時候 確實還是回歸現況好 第四個 農產業研究的資源過於分散你們都給各大學去做資料分散 你給各大學 我也沒意見喔重點你不本部相關的農業相關的資訊 你有沒有統整起來"},{"start":3464.207,"end":3470.335,"text":"而且缺乏重點的經濟物種的核心計畫好來我們來看國際成功經驗這個成功經驗我們看愛爾蘭的乳流我們只會說人家好"},{"start":3473.883,"end":3502.522,"text":"這個他好在哪裡其實我們也在這個軌跡上在走啊他能夠你看左邊這是他們的愛爾蘭養牛聯合會國家支持的一個聯合會他能夠讓他的育種率提升一倍他的世代間隔縮短了60%所以講白了就是他的優生學嘛然後每次最最讓我這讓我看到的就是減少每公升牛奶碳排14%講白話一點他就是連牛的放屁他都在開始減少"},{"start":3503.886,"end":3503.907,"text":"攤牌"},{"start":3504.622,"end":3513.168,"text":"好我們再看右下角這個挪威的鮭魚跟丹麥的豬隻他們兩個也是一樣這兩個是國際級的公司他們是國際級的公司才有辦法去做這樣的一個精準農業那我們是小農那怎麼辦政府啊我們的農業不要當農民的靠山啊不是只靠補貼補貼我講是重要保障他及時的讓他不要趕快這個倒下去但是他的後面的升級的產業升級在哪裡他連鮭魚跟豬隻生活週期變短"},{"start":3534.484,"end":3544.952,"text":"飼料成本降低這就是我們如何如何用我們開放市場之後我們國家的龍魚牧怎麼去跟人家競爭嗎他減少飼料的減少飼料的風險跟碳排也減少了嗎好再來我們來看本國的"},{"start":3551.737,"end":3573.793,"text":"現在的虛產種源資料網 這個都在網上上游你們從1995年至今存來到這邊的就只有種源樣本 保存跟交換功能第二個完全不具備運算跟資料加值什麼意思 你那個叫做資料 不叫做資訊而且僅有DNA的資料 卻無表形體定"},{"start":3575.134,"end":3590.485,"text":"定序的應用好再來我們來看奇異果我們大家說他很會行銷其實錯了他在從現在開始本席質詢的前20年他就已經完成了基因資料的收集"},{"start":3590.725,"end":3604.049,"text":"所以他才能在中國廉價的生產實現價值創造所以我們來看看我們能不能這樣做現況我們是總員不管是農產 農畜魚都是這樣我們現況就是總員保存查詢沒有還沒有講到資安保護我們期待他精準決策能夠透過基因體的資料庫跟AI的分析能夠達到四個目的提高生產的效率跟收益能夠縮短育種週期"},{"start":3618.294,"end":3624.199,"text":"第三個 農業碳排減量第四個 提高農民的專業性進而我們能夠創新營友強化農業韌性我們一直在講農業韌性啊在講什麼農業韌性面對我的氣候變遷 抗逆境"},{"start":3633.846,"end":3653.3,"text":"抗病品系你像我的這個空包的這個水稻包括之前的那個小番茄的消長不都是氣候變遷嗎你們就是不承認它是天然災害啊但是我可以透過這樣子的一個基因體的資料庫跟AI的分析這個等一下在最後我再跟你做討論我的單位產量會提高促進糧食的安全DNA條碼的運用"},{"start":3660.885,"end":3667.189,"text":"GS1的導入這個本席在前幾次的質詢當中DNA條碼結合現在2027年全球要推動的GS1條碼的這個運用鑑別進口產品好我們現在缺乏農業雲端大數據這個榮邦學習呀這個再速發布這個已經很成熟的學習什麼意思他是一個分三次的AI訓練各單位可以在不分享原始資料這個很重要的前提下協作訓練"},{"start":3691.606,"end":3701.413,"text":"既可以保護各單位的私有資訊又可以訓練最佳的演算這個就是我們所有農業從業人員增進智慧農業現場的效益我們看左邊A農場B農場C農場這可以是私人的左邊的農事所拉進來在這個平台資料加密去識別化之後我們的共同來訓練演算"},{"start":3713.041,"end":3725.85,"text":"各自ABC包括農事所各自可以去演算但是到這個平台的時候我政府可以運用農事所包括你部本部的連結所以右邊這邊是我們期待的國家農業雲大數據因為國越國家雲大數據出來之後的背後是什麼是你的政策預算能夠精準你能夠智慧的決策那要從基礎做從最下面的右邊左下你生物樣本跟生物資訊這個是"},{"start":3743.901,"end":3762.506,"text":"農林漁牧都是可以進來的再來往上基因分析資料的闡述這是我們要進展的進而到上面我們的應用平台進而再到你的國家數據但是當到應用平台的時候你的聯邦學習演算的模組就會出來你會上下交流進而產生下來的是我的回歸到農事單位我們的農研 我們農器 我們的農民是什麼生產效益提升 助益的糧食生產跟永續的發展"},{"start":3772.768,"end":3775.769,"text":"好 我們再來看 極端氣候 長年困擾我們帶來的這個病毒素等的消長的狀況讓小番茄不再生長或有結果那你們農糧署判斷之後呢 是病蟲害不算天災 無法啟動天災的補助所以呢 變成是我們農業局提供肥料的補助好 你來看這個稻米空包蛋你們有沒有 你們農事組有沒有開發抗病品種我要聽你們講話一下 你們有欸"},{"start":3800.217,"end":3805.04,"text":"你們有耶 部長 你們有對於空包的這個 道明有抗變品種 抱歉你們沒有普及 農民都不知道 產銷辦都不知道 都沒有普及所以你也就只好 你一定要給我補助下去好所以呢 我們高雄的隧道也面臨這樣的災害問題好 講到這個 這個就是您的前瞻了啦這我要跟你講一下 國家植物表形體中心"},{"start":3825.41,"end":3841.047,"text":"好這個左邊這張圖你們幾乎非常的你應該非常的熟悉植物設計導向的快速精準綠種他應該做到最上位跟你的這個容試所當你這個表型體當中可以做環境控制好我就以水稻為例我的抗旱"},{"start":3842.088,"end":3845.971,"text":"抗熱抗病蟲害就這三個就好了你的環境調控本來我本來8月我才會有有這個8月才會生長的我提早到6月了而且就是長得不好所以你這個環境抗逆境當中我可以變成高溫然後用這個病蟲害的這樣基因下去所產生的優生的品種這個基因在哪裡甚至所以你們現在的我要你調整的你這個做得很好但是你現在給學術單位"},{"start":3872.108,"end":3890.169,"text":"沒問題但是你要重點啊比如說今年我就做兩個我就做水稻水稻哪一個我有好幾個方案有的是表型體的有的是基因檢測的有的是什麼什麼的然後這些總和之後就是水稻所有的數據你整合在一塊你今年就做這一項就好了"},{"start":3890.609,"end":3896.756,"text":"你可以透徹到不行而且是符合台灣我們的這個環境變遷所以如果你能夠做這樣的統整給各學術單位而且你有很計畫性的今年我做哪幾個哪幾個品種"},{"start":3905.966,"end":3912.589,"text":"全部透徹的研究產生出來的再給農事所人數了之後再回饋你這個表形體中心這樣才會讓我農民受益才能普及下去啊這邊會有什麼好處您這個中心如果有好好的去做這樣的整合的話數據的整合跟我農事總也結合我的抗病基因跟風味基位共同選拔我利用基因體的選擇方法會提高風味也許未來我的水稻有百大米"},{"start":3932.472,"end":3936.436,"text":"我以後我的隧道我就要有百拉米就在這裡出來啊然後利用擴大優良品系及種苗的生產跟供應提出先期的檢測跟預警方案幫助農民降低風險啊你再怎麼補都補不到我農民的損失啊"},{"start":3949.548,"end":3976.139,"text":"按照我們農民我投資200萬你再給我補助多少好再來這邊最後我具體的要求希望參考智慧農業國際成功的案例提出我國農漁畜農漁產的這個生產效率提升的方案不僅限於基因定序第二個提出國家植物表形體中心應該要應用活化的方案而且要針對主要的經濟物種制定資源集中的研究計畫再來這些"},{"start":3978.5,"end":3989.567,"text":"今年供地區的一起水稻栽損以最短暫的時間完成補助你先針對最後一項回答我就可以了你什麼時候補助我高雄地區的一起水稻栽損我講明的你不在這個質詢態度上給我講出來我就絕對不給你解凍 請說"},{"start":3996.004,"end":4009.941,"text":"有關於那個現在目前的水道是採用水道的一個保險那水道保險在當地的水道收工後一個月之內一定會完成整個的一個保險的一個設計講時間講時間好嗎我們農民現在要聽的就是時間"},{"start":4014.482,"end":4032.316,"text":"我們的農會現在要聽的就是時間就是他們當地收穫後一個月之內就會出來因為我們用保險的制度那也不用去勘栽我們跟地區地區性的產量如果他比地區的產量比過去五年還低的時候那相對的如果超過20%我們就理賠了"},{"start":4034.117,"end":4054.906,"text":"所以是我們市政府給你之後的一個月內再補是嗎是這個意思不是不需要地方政府給我們我們會針對當地的產量做調查那那個產量如果跟過去五年的去高去低的平均好那講時間好不好現在五月中現在已經五月快底了那你要多久一個月"},{"start":4057.127,"end":4074.014,"text":"收穫完一個月所以我在6月今天5月幾號今天5月18號那就是6月18號以前完成所有的補助喔我要跟委員講喔我是說收穫後一個月但是現在高雄地區現在還在收啊"},{"start":4075.707,"end":4095.232,"text":"收購完一個月部長 嘗試講人民聽得懂的話你只要講人民說 來各位農民這個我告訴你在6月30號以前你會完成補助在7月15號以前你會完成補助這才叫人民聽得懂的話中間的程序是我們的問題"},{"start":4096.332,"end":4122.788,"text":"是你要去督促各農漁會去公所那去這個我這個是政府這是你們自己去協調的我跟委員報告說人們聽得懂嗎現在目前我們不是用天然災害的救助的系統我們用農業保險農業保險第一個就是那個地區收穫完我們會計量它的產量有沒有比過去五年還低如果低20%的時候一個月之內我們就理賠"},{"start":4125.41,"end":4140.454,"text":"好啊所以時間呢大概就是等高雄區你如果您關因為不同的地區會不同的時間我們以高雄地區的話大概那大概是六月底七月中之前七月中七月十號以前好這樣我們大家都聽到了好我們所有農會我們所有農民請到來都聽到了七月中旬以前我們農業部會完成所有的補助好謝謝以上"},{"start":4149.99,"end":4163.524,"text":"這個要超過百分之二十的喔好要超過百分之二十喔所以農民票好喔我們高雄的農民票好喔大陸米農的農民票好喔請到來喔你如果又不超過百分之二十我們是站不住的喔好 謝謝好謝謝林黛華委員那我們下一位請邱益穎委員質詢"},{"start":4187.277,"end":4198.14,"text":"謝謝主席這個主席我待會可以暢所欲言嗎可以好謝謝沒問題我接下來請一下那個部長好請部長"},{"start":4206.397,"end":4227.187,"text":"部長早部長我想先在我們處理這個詢問預算的解凍之前還是先請教一個這個時事題這個端午節馬上就到了那現在的豬價已經是這三年來應該是同期最高我不曉得我昨天好像有看到農業部大概有一個一個措施"},{"start":4228.087,"end":4240.145,"text":"我是不是給部長您一點時間讓部長說明一下因為現在這個豬價這麼高大概一般的消費群眾也是會唉叫到底是什麼樣的原因造成這個豬的價格這麼高是針對產量減少嗎那針對產量減少的這個部分農業部有什麼調配措施"},{"start":4245.107,"end":4271.522,"text":"第一個跟委員講現在目前合理的一個價格是大概在95塊上下那過去這一個禮拜最主要是備料的關係因為端午節備料的關係所以大家就搶所以我們從明天開始我們會開始增工增加一成的租量那這個部分渴望讓租價不會再超過這個短時間超過100塊的部分然後第二個一個非常重要的就是"},{"start":4272.102,"end":4300.674,"text":"因為之前在做冷鏈的那個豬舍的改建的時候那相對的那個豬隻本身的總投數有減少那現在慢慢的陸陸續續的這些改進的部分已經完成特別是像台塘等那種改進的部分完成了所以整個豬隻的飼養會回到一個比較正常的水準那個部長我請教兩個數字一個就是說您剛剛講從明天開始會增量大概會增加多少大概2.4"},{"start":4302.594,"end":4316.48,"text":"2.3萬每天2.3萬頭大概比過往的2萬2萬1增加了一成好每天會增加2.3萬頭沒有整個供應量大概增加2000頭的量差不多2000頭的量那你說現在這個因為養豬場陸續建置好所以養豬的產量會增加"},{"start":4322.671,"end":4341.477,"text":"是這樣嗎對慢慢的會增加所以您的預期到什麼時候豬肉的價格當然端午節這一波因為用量大所以它的這個價格應該也會漲上去但您預期什麼時候那個豬價會回到一個比較平穩的狀態我相信大概在7月以後那個豬價到中原之間有沒有"},{"start":4342.297,"end":4348.823,"text":"這個部分大概會應該在九十幾塊所以這個農業部應該也會長期密切的監控這個東西嗎接下來要請教一個這個關稅的問題很多的農民或者是說現在有很多的這種假新聞開始在講"},{"start":4360.134,"end":4378.462,"text":"就是說未來台美的這個農業防線到底守不守得住如果全部的關稅是零的話那對於台灣的農業衝擊但是我不知道或者是說我其實並沒有很清楚的聽到農業部在這個方面對於關稅如果是零"},{"start":4379.602,"end":4400.259,"text":"但或者是說從你們現在開始講我們是從零開始談目前有很多的包括台灣輸到美國或者是美國輸到台灣大概都是有六成左右的產品其實是零關稅的但是如果現在很多人去把它造謠說全部都是零美國以後進來的東西全部都是零關稅的話那對台灣整體農業的衝擊"},{"start":4403.735,"end":4421.851,"text":"部長我想在這裡你用一分鐘的時間回答不了我這些這麼重大的議題但是我認為農業部應該好好的應對要好好的對農民說明跟好好對國人說明台灣的整體農業政策在面對到台美關稅議題的時候我們應該怎麼樣因應 怎麼樣面對那對於我們的台灣自體的農產品對農民的保護你們應該有什麼樣的對策"},{"start":4432.709,"end":4455.443,"text":"這些東西這些說帖是不是能夠請農業部在很短的時間之內不管你用下鄉也好不管你是透過農會透過產銷辦透過各地方縣市政府我覺得應該都要讓農民很清楚的知道政府在對於農業的保護政策上面會做的事情應該做的事情還有"},{"start":4456.323,"end":4481.082,"text":"要立即去做的事情有哪些這些能不能在很短的時間內去做到我想謝謝委員的一個提醒我想相關的資料我們都已經有準備了那我們現在就會立即的去用圖卡的方式然後下降的部分讓委員說明但是我這邊要強調一件事情以農業部的立場以我現在知道我們現在對美談判的部分像最近有說米會降到百分之幾絕對不會"},{"start":4482.623,"end":4501.54,"text":"我覺得這個是一個就是用賴總統以零開始的這個模式去讓變成一個錯誤的訊息讓人家說稻米會降到零關稅這個不會發生因為到目前為止我們為了確保糧食安全我們對於稻米我們會一直捍衛著它的一個相關的一個現在的一個制度"},{"start":4502.808,"end":4525.043,"text":"我覺得有一些對於台灣來講它是屬於戰略安全的糧食考量的部分我認為農業部應該要提出更多更強有力的數據跟對外的說明這一塊可能要再多做一點那這一題其實我特別藉由今天質詢的機會來提出來這個農業部裡頭現在大概組織改造"},{"start":4530.467,"end":4555.32,"text":"有很多的組織其實是做了一些調整但是我們的植物防檢員跟動物防檢員在不要說同工不同酬同職等不同家籍不同酬的這件事情上面部長我知道你有曾經努力過但是我不曉得為什麼人事行政總處對於我們的植物防檢員的認識"},{"start":4557.881,"end":4577.208,"text":"認知這麼樣的低造成我們很多植物房檢員對於他的工作不受到尊重我伯伯做房檢員有什麼做動物的他的家籍就比較高他的家籍是表10嘛那你的這個植物的是表2是比較低的嘛"},{"start":4578.388,"end":4600.714,"text":"我們去問過了我相信你也知道人事行政總署說要叫這些植物防檢員要去取得植物診療師的資格他才能比照表實的加緊植物診療師法我們去年才通過今年8月才考第一次那你叫這些高階的公務人員現在再回頭去考那個證照那個證照要8月以後才考"},{"start":4601.874,"end":4618.641,"text":"那對他們來講情何以堪其實植物防檢員的工作辛勞的程度不會輸給動物防檢員部長您同意我的看法嗎我非常同意所以這也是為什麼我們在過去一年一直在爭取幫植物領域的部分能夠也爭取到表實的部分"},{"start":4619.241,"end":4643.854,"text":"那現在我們還是會積極爭取那我們現在目前是不希望用等到植物診療室的考試才能夠取得我們用另外一個方式就是不需要任何考試因為領表實的專業佳績不一定要考試在不同單位是這樣子部長如果我的資料沒錯的話啦你們現在如果能夠領到表實的人員大概只有169個對不對你的總體影響總體支出只會增加429萬嘛"},{"start":4647.516,"end":4674.936,"text":"對 人數並不多啦人數不多但是這個對於大家的內心感受對於我們的公務人員的內心感受其實是差距極大的所以我想如果今天行政院或者是人事總署有聽到這一段的話我認為人事總署真的應該好好的去思考一下或者我其實會覺得改天要邀一下人事行政總署跟著我們的植物防檢員到田間去走一趟他就會知道有多辛苦在這樣的太陽底下"},{"start":4675.777,"end":4690.643,"text":"三四十度的太陽底下到植物到田間裡頭去走訪喔你就會知道這個有多辛苦喔所以部長這個我想我們還是要一起來共同努力啦好不好那另外最後一點那個主席對不起我再一分鐘就好了"},{"start":4692.847,"end":4721.479,"text":"真的氣候異常造成的這個稻作減產剛剛您在講到現在稻作的減產如果到全部收割完之後發現他的產量是減少20%的話你們就會有這個收入保險就會去理賠部長我現在跟你討論的就是收入保險的理賠金額的部分如果按照我們現有的辦法一般的天然災害的救助稻米的這個補助標準是一公頃1.8萬一分地大概只有"},{"start":4722.455,"end":4737.576,"text":"我們已經提高到兩萬了我知道你現在的收入保險是提高到兩萬但是你要知道說現在他們的成本你賺到我的成本差不多就是要一公頃差不多就是要五萬到六萬啦十二萬喔好"},{"start":4739.578,"end":4758.662,"text":"你只賠2萬這個落差太大了啦那對於很多的農民來講當然他不希望靠你的保險理賠嘛他希望的是他的稻米能夠有好的收入但是在這樣的氣候變遷的狀態之下其實有沒有考慮我們的這個收入保險的理賠金額能夠適度的調漲"},{"start":4763.578,"end":4789.706,"text":"跟委員報告第一個就是我們的收入保險是從天然災害保險轉過來的所以現在都調高兩萬而且我們會滾動的檢討你是調高到兩萬不是調高兩萬調高到兩萬從一萬八調高到兩萬只有增加兩千塊然後現在我們會定期的滾動的檢討特別是我已經跟同仁講我們至少在年度的時候會針對上一年度的成本有一些調高的時候我們會"},{"start":4790.686,"end":4810.52,"text":"比照的去做一個調整所以部長這一題我就跟你提出來了這一題我覺得應該放到你們滾動檢討的一個重要的項目之一那很顯然的現在在高雄地區的稻米收入其實是銳減的大寮就不用講了大寮那個收入大概最少都超過六成以上"},{"start":4811.32,"end":4830.738,"text":"美濃最近開始準備要收割了發現它的它的空爆彈的情況不會比大寮還輕喔所以未來在這一個多月內如果全部收割完成你們的計算基準出來之後我相信我期待這個理賠的速度是要加快第二就是我現在跟您提出來的"},{"start":4831.738,"end":4857.788,"text":"滾動式檢討未來的理賠金額是不是能夠滾動的增加在明年開始或者是下半年開始我覺得這個可能要把請農業部把它列為一個非常重要的一個會的我想我們已經有一個固定的那個滾動機制大概兩期做完了以後我們就會檢討然後第二個部分就是有關於這個保險的理賠它會比天然災害快因為天然災害每一塊地都去看"},{"start":4858.368,"end":4880.641,"text":"那保險的都不用所以我剛才說的我們會等評個資料一出來以後我們馬上計算但你的理賠其實還有另外一個是加強型就是農民他必須付少許的金額是的那我覺得加強型的這一塊可能要加強去宣導啦很多農民不知道有加強型的這個保險所以加強型這一塊我覺得應該要加強去宣導好不好好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":4884.599,"end":4887.58,"text":"好 謝謝邱議員委員那下一位請張祺凱委員發言現在陳部長來請部長"},{"start":4921.093,"end":4948.55,"text":"委員長 保定很久了最近我回到南部我看到我們的漂亮那個稻田都陸陸續續都在收成我們的農民也是很感謝包括地盤民通過後都走步也提高了他們供糧收購的這個價格了至少提高了一公斤大概是我算了一下大概1.83但是差不多一公頃可以多收兩萬塊錢這算是一個對農民不無小補這算是一個好消息保定"},{"start":4951.156,"end":4962.201,"text":"這個跟我們原來的標準還差了三分之二這也是為什麼今天要談解凍案這次農業部最大的最大的凍結的這個案子有兩個一個是業務費810302萬凍結了30%"},{"start":4973.545,"end":4996.712,"text":"兩億四千零九十萬另外有一筆這個農政的這個業務費也凍結了大概一億左右啦那現在今天最重要的就是三億左右的這個經費到底要不要解凍我剛剛講有好消息是已經幫了我們農民一公頃大概可以公糧收購可以增加兩萬嘛對不對那接下來還剩下這三分之二"},{"start":4997.998,"end":5025.091,"text":"你上次有答應我 你說逐步要完成對不對你現在怎麼去我沒有這樣講齁你要怎麼去達成逐步的包括立法院通過的是一公斤五塊錢不是你現在只有調的一公斤一點八三還有包括那一天我們在草野協商在行政院的時候院長也說要逐步去完成嘛 對不對你今天要解凍老實講 今天就是要解凍這三立多到底要怎麼去怎麼去達到農民可以達到一公斤五塊錢"},{"start":5026.407,"end":5051.764,"text":"我第一個跟委員報告就是我們現在用的糧食產業升級的方案裡面那你可以看得到我們整個方案裡面不只照顧了水稻的農民因為對農業部來講我不只是處理水稻有要處理其他的雜糧然後第一個就是我受益的民眾增加了從22萬到36萬有增加了那更重要就水稻的種植的農民來講你可以看得到"},{"start":5052.867,"end":5074.42,"text":"就他的計劃輔導跟餘糧 過去農民都沒在交餘糧的如果你單看計劃跟輔導都是超過五塊錢以上所以以整體的效益來講他是對農民的到農是有保障而且是一個持續性的保障如果今天我把每一個都調高了五塊的話我可以保證"},{"start":5075.66,"end":5099.853,"text":"那個價格支撐不了一兩年因為大家會大量的種植水稻那相對的種植水稻後面的這個水稻的數量太多市價崩盤的時候對農民反而是不利的我想這個我跟委員做了非常多的溝通我們這個事情已經溝通過好幾次我也給你看了很多數據包括之前有好幾次的公糧價格的提高後來面積雖然有上去點點後來都下來了"},{"start":5100.533,"end":5128.155,"text":"這個我們經過好幾次討論了現在最重要的 最重要的我記得第一個是立法院的通過的協議嘛 對不對一公斤五塊錢第二個我們經過草野協商跟行政院協商這個你要落實我另外提醒你一個很重要的事情明年齋齁明年齋很重要明年齋是520啊你做農業部長 你知道嗎520對農民是一個非常重要其實對農委會跟現在農業部都是一個很重要的日子民國七十七年"},{"start":5129.631,"end":5141.167,"text":"農民運動是我們台灣解嚴以後第一次最大規模最嚴重的警民的這個衝突他那時候有八大訴求裡面兩個跟你都非常有關係喔"},{"start":5142.312,"end":5160.808,"text":"第一個他要求把農委會提升為農業部嘛所以你現在才有農委部長可以當這是一個第二個當初因為美國很多農產品要進來農民上街頭抗議了77年民國77年的520很慘烈的農民運動那另外一個他裡面有一個很重要的訴求就是稻民要進來嘛"},{"start":5161.889,"end":5188.11,"text":"所以他們要求美國稻米要進來他們要求做兩件事情公糧的收貨價格要保證適度的提高第二個 面積要能夠以這保障你看這個訴求從民國77年到現在喔那我們現在跨出了一步了我們給了一公斤1.83我可以肯定這部分對農民也有幫助了可是後續另外這三分之二怎麼去做到部長你今天要給我一個報告啦說實在的 這三億多這個預算其實"},{"start":5192.168,"end":5211.717,"text":"我那時候本來是要砍的喔 本來是要砍1億的預算嘛 對不對我們經過溝通嘛 我沒有砍喔 一毛錢都沒有砍喔可是我們包括跟楊瓊英 張家俊我們就1億會費 凍結30%嘛 對不對我現在算下來就是這2、3億那你要給我一個 例如說那時候你有談到說你要下鄉去去做說明嘛 對不對我們四度收斂"},{"start":5213.698,"end":5229.758,"text":"我跟委員報告一個數據就好我們推動糧食產業升級方案的時候繳工糧的面積少了5000公頃那些農民跑到哪邊去了那些農民他去做集團栽培他不繳工糧用集團栽培同樣造用"},{"start":5230.319,"end":5250.874,"text":"用種稻但是他用品牌的方式去提高他的收益這個才是我們想要的我希望我們所有農民種稻是用他的品質用他的市場價格去支撐他的所得而不是靠政府的價格去支撐那也希望委員來支持我想這個部分做了一年兩年那個成效一定會出來的"},{"start":5251.735,"end":5270.421,"text":"我曾經在嘉義參觀那個月桃故事館他們成立一個那個食農的那個教育基地那那個什麼光嘉義那個三光米啊現在說要銷到日本光是一個三光米就20萬噸對不對今年我們輸到日本的過往大概每一年平均大概3900多公"},{"start":5272.842,"end":5296.989,"text":"今年可以超高九千到一萬噸所以我們用更好的米我們鼓勵農民做更好的米然後去外銷比你繳公糧放在公糧倉庫好很多所以我希望委員給我們一個機會就是讓我們這個製度部長這個沒有衝突啦我們的米能夠銷到日本銷到比較好的國家更好的這個價格我真的有衝突喔三光米這個嘉義幸福米這個我們就是我們驕傲嘛"},{"start":5297.449,"end":5309.921,"text":"所以多去推動讓他們可以賣到日本賣更好價格可是相對的普遍的這個農民工糧收穫我講不完民國七十七年開始農民我們限農基層的農民那時候就要求了嘛現在日本的股份已經過了你現在也做一部分我現在要求說你三萬七千要補償給他不然我想跟你講一下你今天要通過這個"},{"start":5317.867,"end":5344.502,"text":"解凍了這個百分之三十業務費你今天要提出因為等一下會會討論嘛對不對你要加俊啦等一下那個當初我們有共同討論的其他立委都在待會要解凍這個預算你要給我一個很明確的這樣老實講農民也在等啦農民要高興那個一公頃可以多收兩萬塊的時候他們也在想說你我們答應他的立盤過了還沒有我們要走去補起來你等一下想一下你這個我先質詢可是老實講解凍之前我們要解決這問題好"},{"start":5346.773,"end":5370.534,"text":"我跟委員報告齁 您說的都變成五塊錢的時候那相對的所有的民糧都沒有辦法活下去他就不種民糧了 我們就沒有好的米外銷了沒有啊 民糧就你說有些銷到日本 有些很好大家就搶而已當你工糧的價格變高的時候 你的民糧就沒辦法支撐下去就沒有好的米外銷了 也沒有好的米給國人 我們的民眾來吃啦"},{"start":5371.455,"end":5377.904,"text":"這個就是我們考慮的公糧價格太高的時候民糧沒辦法生存的時候那相對的他沒有辦法做好的米"},{"start":5379.542,"end":5405.723,"text":"這個就是所以我說糧食產業升級部長你說現在變成是太高的問題我們經過好幾次溝通你要逐步把我們什麼去達成嗎所以你是先調了1公斤1.83我們調了1公頃增加2萬塊就是反映它的成本那反映它的成本以後我們用集團栽培去拉高它的產品的品質然後透過產品品質提高讓消費者認同來提高它的收入"},{"start":5406.523,"end":5433.45,"text":"這個方法才是持久的你剛才在聽邱議員在說沒有那個成本十三年沒調你看他們連那個災損都要求要提高了公糧收購當然除了現在調了三分之一三分之二怎麼去補給沒關係你等一下給我一個案子啦等一下我們反正解凍之前沒有的話就保留我們到院會再繼續來談來另外我問一下法定你們看到那個四千一百億的那個特別條例嘛我們你本錢是一百八十億對不對"},{"start":5435.253,"end":5449.08,"text":"那我們台灣民眾黨啊認為在強化農業金融還有提升產業的這個競爭跟協助這個多元這個市場我們大幅提高我們要求把它提高到300億你讚不讚成"},{"start":5450.839,"end":5477.522,"text":"基本上我們提出來的這個180億那這個180億是針對現在目前關稅10%到32%之間可能的浮動我們設計出來的短期之內協助我們的受影響的業者的金融資金的負擔中長期是增加他的產業的韌性所以180億我們初步看起來是夠的但是如果說關稅"},{"start":5478.803,"end":5484.826,"text":"整體的關稅有你現在不要提高嗎我跟委員報告就是說後續如果不足的話我們會用追加預算的方式來處理"},{"start":5494.712,"end":5520.828,"text":"幹嘛追加 你就支持民進黨的300億就好啦你現在變180 連民進黨 不要說國民黨跟在野黨我們是要支持我們的農民農業啊沒有 當然我知道說越多的經費給農業部當然越好可是相對的在現在的情況之下我們覺得現在用180億去處理是可以去處理的那後續如果不足的話我們會循程序去做追加預算的方式來處理"},{"start":5522.129,"end":5545.457,"text":"因為他畢竟 特別預算畢竟是三年嘛 兩年半快三年嘛那如果不夠 因為整個關稅的不確定性太高了 現在關稅如果...博士你等一下再想一下啦 其實報告面這張禮物都說181是太少了不是 現在關稅的不確定性太高了啊 不知道...不要用追加的 你至少310來 我問另外一個問題齁 那個最近那個美債引起很多討論"},{"start":5546.963,"end":5575.496,"text":"我有去查我們的農業金庫,5年10億塊錢,我們因為買美債,大家知道嗎?我們已經虧損,那時候5年,包括你們農業部自己的資料嘛,虧損了50億,最近,到目前,那現在呢?有沒有繼續買?現在虧損多少錢?這個我沒辦法現在回答你,我可以了解以後再跟你講,那農業金庫到底有沒有繼續買美債,這個我不清楚,我現在沒辦法回答。"},{"start":5577.828,"end":5603.807,"text":"你現在手上沒有資料對我手上沒有這個事情算很重要這個是我們去跟美國最近要關稅談判應該會談到的餒對因為農業金庫是我們農業因為我們買了很多啊就是因為農業我們現在是幫人民勘請荷包也幫農民勘請荷包啊對不對啊去年你11月底的統計你已經了過了為了美債已經因為利息一直在升嘛所以你已經損失了50億啊啊你現在關稅在談判的時候會提到這個對你來講應該很重要啊"},{"start":5605.504,"end":5625.211,"text":"沒關係部長你那個你三天因為這本來就應該有了你報告去談判你要這個資料啦你三天內給我談判不需要這個資料對農業部來講談判不需要這個資料不需要這個資料不需要說我有多少美債他們如果要美國要求我們再繼續買美債你要不要的話你這個基本資料要有啊"},{"start":5627.315,"end":5647.054,"text":"我們的納稅錢 農民的錢你一直虧損你怎麼可以沒有準備不是我想美債的買賣以農業經過來講他有他的那個董建市的決議嘛那相對的我因為現在沒有辦法手上沒有這個資料他到底買了多少美債那我想我會後"},{"start":5648.955,"end":5675.233,"text":"會請問他們來提供委員這份資料我背後再資料給你主席 這裡面有兩個問題啦第一個就是因為虧損累累嘛第二個就是因為你一直在講說你的獨立董事沒有發揮功能這是這兩個問題啦好 沒關係 保定 我跟你講現在統統 這是人民的荷包啦也是農民的這個荷包啦你儘快 三天OK嘛你查一下 你到底從11月底已經虧損50億你後來有沒有再買 買了多少"},{"start":5676.033,"end":5690.309,"text":"對不對 因為買多少第二個統計一下 了解要看錢好不好 那如果虧損的話就不能繼續買啦不只台灣啊 全世界都沒有在討論說要繼續買美債啊對不對這是跟所有人 跟川普 跟美國在談判裡面最重要一個問題欸"},{"start":5693.22,"end":5717.919,"text":"第一個已經虧損了所以不能再虧嘛對不對啊如果有啊所以我要清楚說你到底有沒有在買有虧損多少這個資料我後續會提供資料給你我現在沒辦法回答因為我沒辦法這就是現成的資料嘛對不對這應該可以調得到我不知道可不可以如果可以提供我一定會提供第一個前提就是說他們這個購買你那時候公佈為什麼這個東西不能提供這是公開資料啊我不知道齁"},{"start":5718.619,"end":5735.479,"text":"這個我不敢確定因為每個公司或是每個這些東西它有相關的一個規範如果能夠提供給委員的我一定提供包括他們買什麼樣的一個債券什麼樣的東西是不是他們的內部資料還是可公開的這個我必須確認如果可以我一定提供給你"},{"start":5735.839,"end":5760.434,"text":"部長第一個你們以前公佈過啦這也是對前面要負責我不清楚啦所以我回去會了解儘快在三天內你儘快在三天內給我我說可以的話我一定提供OK好要看緊人民的荷包幫農民了鄉長當然你今天那個要解凍那個錢供應收報提高五塊錢等一下給我方案好謝謝好謝謝張七開委員那下一位請鄭正前委員發言"},{"start":5772.771,"end":5791.128,"text":"謝主席 今天是我們農業部跟工平會的解凍案那因為工平會主委跟我們農業部長很少在一起我想請農業部陳部長還有我們工平會的陳代理主委好 請部長跟代理主委"},{"start":5797.231,"end":5817.153,"text":"首先我想說先請教一下農業部長這邊因為我們台牛經濟合作協定今年開始全面生效但因為從2013年我們跟台牛經濟合作協定之後的時候對於牛乳的進口的部分之前的時候是配額內零關稅"},{"start":5819.335,"end":5836.426,"text":"那配額外的時候每公斤是14元對不對那從今年開始的時候不再想有配額的限制那全面開始零關稅進口可是我們從市場上看起來的時候呢就是今年開始全部有零關稅那可是發現價格也沒有波動"},{"start":5837.546,"end":5851.995,"text":"價格沒有波動本來是一件好事可是因為我們零關稅之後消費者感覺沒有得到好處因為價格沒有往下降那我們想問一下就是說這個零關稅之後的這些的差價到底跑到哪裡去了"},{"start":5853.227,"end":5867.487,"text":"我跟委員說明有一個數據可能要先說明就是整個我們台灣從國外進口的生乳的部分大概是五萬八千噸一年那其中大概三萬九千噸三萬八到三萬九千噸是鮮乳的部分"},{"start":5868.728,"end":5895.845,"text":"紐西蘭的鮮乳占的比例比較少它是以薄酒乳有比較多它的鮮乳大概一年只有4000多噸而已然後它的那個薄酒乳相對比較多大概1萬多噸所以相對的就是你如果純粹看紐西蘭的這個部分的話它的占比其實那個38000 39000噸裡面它只有占4000多噸所以它對市場的那個影響力其實沒那麼大"},{"start":5896.986,"end":5915.119,"text":"我們農業部來講我們更在意的是我們弱農的生乳提供給乳場的價格是不是能夠穩定而且更高這是我想農業部最關心的就這個那至於後端的市場我想有它的一個機制部長你講到一個我真的要問的重點"},{"start":5915.559,"end":5934.04,"text":"我為什麼特別請公平會主委一起來的部分就是因為如果說關稅降低的時候消費者沒有得到好處不管他佔比是多少的時候那至少弱農要得到好處吧這是我們的目標其實是一致的可是我們看到了就是說在這個目前台灣的一個四大那個爐瓶廠的時候大概"},{"start":5934.921,"end":5957.109,"text":"收了所有台灣的一個生乳的八成以上那這是我們從那個網路上面看到的一份資料這是某一個生乳廠特別提出來的一個狀態他這個通知單他特別提到了我把紅框框畫出來的地方他再次強調裡面絕對勿將非自家牧場生產之生乳搭交"},{"start":5958.169,"end":5978.352,"text":"禁止搭交的意思的時候就是說生乳不得外調變成這樣的一個情況那如果說以這樣的情況的時候我想請教針對這樣子大的爐瓶廠他們直接用這樣子很強勢的部分在跟我們的弱農做互動的時候我想請教一下農業部怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":5979.386,"end":6003.582,"text":"我想第一個就是我們的爐廠跟我們的酪農廠本身的一個爐架我們有訂一個基礎爐架然後我們有一些契約架的部分那那個契約架包括他的獎金所以他基本上是雙方合一的那我們會去了解如果說有比較不正常的強迫性的時候那我們想我們會去了解爐廠為什麼會做這種事情因為"},{"start":6005.263,"end":6022.771,"text":"因為其實你講這部分你就是要講強調說契約自由來解決這個事情可是問題目前來說的時候就是因為四大如平廠他們已經佔據市場八成以上的一個收入的一個情況所以我也想問一下公平會對於這樣子的一個部分的時候那公平會怎麼看"},{"start":6024.04,"end":6041.265,"text":"跟委員報告一下這相關的這些行為公平會在93年的時候曾經有調查過那也針對相關的行為進行過查處但是這幾年來這個市場的情況有蠻大的改變所以委員關切這個問題其實就如同剛剛部長也談到了這是一個契約交易的決定的自由"},{"start":6043.024,"end":6061.752,"text":"對於上游這個對於這個乳品供應商跟下游的這個廠商來講主委你講說契約自由的部分我真的就覺得不一定那麼認同其實因為針對這個部分畜牧法第36條它裡面就有特別提到為了維持牛羊乳品與那個的產銷平衡的時候呢各縣市主管機關應輔導"},{"start":6063.252,"end":6077.974,"text":"就是廠農雙方訂定生農買賣契約所以政府是有角色的那畜牧法這邊的時候是農業部這邊在主管的時候我覺得農業部這邊也必定要擔起這樣的一個責任那麼另外的部分的時候我們就看到了"},{"start":6078.595,"end":6097.321,"text":"因為公平會之前曾經認定定型化契約的使用人如果瑕疵由於交易對方的經濟地位定有違反契約利益負擔公平的條款破壞存在於契約當事人兩照之間誠實信用的一個良好秩序是定型化契約的濫用所以針對這個部分我們認為所謂的一個"},{"start":6102.623,"end":6122.112,"text":"不得外調這件事情已經非常的影響到弱農他們的一個生計所以我們希望就是農業部跟公平會這邊的時候請針對這個部分要好好的一個處理否則我們看到關稅變零之後消費者沒有得益那弱農沒有得益那到底誰得益我覺得這是一個很大的一個問題好不好"},{"start":6123.572,"end":6152.452,"text":"市長跟委員補充一下委員剛剛提到第25條這個部分這個是一個補充性的條款我們實際上會看看市場有沒有聯合統台聯合定價那另外也會看看相關的產業主管機關對於這個問題有沒有一些特別法的規定理解所以我才讓農業部跟你一起出來面對這個問題因為目前其實也有消費者這邊也發起了一人一信到公平會這邊對不對對於這個部分就是要檢舉進口生乳價格不合理這部分我想請教一下公平會目前進度到哪裡"},{"start":6153.792,"end":6177.478,"text":"針對這樣一個消費者的活動我們現在針對紐西蘭這個案子 我們現在是立案在調查當中還在調查當中嘛 大概什麼時候會有成果出來可能還沒有那麼快 因為有檢舉的蠻多的檢舉蠻多 就是因為很多嘛 所以說沒有一個具體的一個時間出來 那你要拖幾年才會出來大概給我一個時間點好不好應該不會到幾年 我想大概"},{"start":6180.575,"end":6182.404,"text":"我們會盡快啦好不好給我一個時間好不好給我具體的時間"},{"start":6187.731,"end":6206.903,"text":"我們盡快好不好因為這個的確前期的內容很多那你事後再到本辦公室來給我一個具體的一個進度因為在這邊我一直在那邊追究這時間的時候那你這邊一直不回答那我們就認為這件事情可能會遙遙無期那消費者的一個權益顯然受損大家一人一心到公平會這邊說公平會還沒有積極去處理那我們其實就會有一點"},{"start":6212.147,"end":6229.345,"text":"擔憂這樣的一個情況會持續的發生而且沒有辦法解決包委員我們有積極在處理OK那之後再到本辦公室來繼續做一個說明那因為今天的解凍案當中的時候就是在我們的那個討論事項當中第四案這邊的時候有一個凍結五億元的部分因為凍結五億元這邊的時候呢"},{"start":6232.027,"end":6259.369,"text":"這農業部這邊的一個說明 因為農業部這次的解凍報告裡面很多都在講現在做什麼東西 可是我們在監督這部分就是希望有更精進的一個作為啦那針對這五億當中的時候 裡面第四點特別提到說要增進農民福利 並支持弱農因應 乳品市場貿易自由化所帶來的衝擊所以要 請我們要支持解凍案我想針對這個部分 部長 針對這個部分的時候 我們有沒有具體做什麼"},{"start":6260.049,"end":6287.357,"text":"但是在這一次的這個凍結的武藝當中有多少的時候會跟我們這個乳品市場跟弱農有關可不可以請進一步做一個說明我跟委員報告其實對內農的幫助我們其實從去年就開始了那第一個部分就是在乳廠端的協助我想跟後續在乳廠的這些調查都需要人力去做那一個更重要我們現在正在談的就是這些大宗的這些"},{"start":6288.727,"end":6316.897,"text":"這些應該這麼講那個那個叫做什麼手搖飲手搖飲的店我們現在正在跟他談他如果用全用國產乳的話我們會給他一些獎勵讓他在門口貼標章如果我想辦法讓國產乳的市場區隔化的時候那相對的我們的乳廠的乳就可以順利的送出來理解部長那個什麼因為我看到這次的那個書面的那個解凍報告當中的時候因為大部分都沒有數字"},{"start":6317.677,"end":6346.958,"text":"那因為除了那個農水署之外有比較多的數字其他單位都很少數字那我希望你這部分的時候把數字準備好之後再跟本行做一個清楚的調查我想我們再跟委員過做說明把相關的數字再提供給您好那另外最後一個部分就是我針對IUU的部分因為我去年其實我問過這件事情就針對我們的一個蟹魚檢查員我想請教一下我們目前有多少蟹魚檢查員我們的蟹魚檢查員我可不可以請於院署可以"},{"start":6348.764,"end":6377.891,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在現與檢察院有31名有31名嘛因為之前的那個前署長的時候講到說有79名這個數字是對的嗎委員報告就是現與檢察院我去年問過這個事情我們的檢察院有兩類一類叫做那個勞動的一個檢查的部分勞動檢察院有現在有70名那我們的現與檢察有31名是他們執行不同的工作"},{"start":6378.713,"end":6384.509,"text":"鮮魚警察的部分是針對所謂的非法的漁業行為 特別針對這部分是因為"},{"start":6387.392,"end":6407.837,"text":"上個月的時候加拿大這邊有通報我們的台灣的漁船就是非法殺海豚然後去捕殺魚這件事情的時候我們後來怎麼處理跟委員報告這一類只要加拿大的報告送到我們台灣來以後給我們漁業署收到以後我們會立即啟動調查"},{"start":6408.917,"end":6435.006,"text":"那加拿大的這一份檢查報告裡面所附的這個影片事證非常的明確所以我們立即把涉及違反這個野保法的部分我們移送檢調來做處理因為那是刑事責任那對於我們漁業違規的部分他捕抓到海豚我們有刻意他義務說你要不管死活你都要釋放要在漁撈日誌裡面去做登載"},{"start":6435.706,"end":6458.973,"text":"他沒登載的部分這一個部分我們現在都做立即的這一個行政處分所以行政跟刑事的部分我們現在是分開來因為我覺得就是保育器是一個全球共同的一個價值那我們台灣這邊務必要去follow這部分所以我們對於IU的部分其實也特別的關注那因為我們這一次在那個整個漁業署的費用當中的時候他有一個管理觀察員"},{"start":6460.534,"end":6473.911,"text":"這個部分的時候我們總共有多少人因為台灣的遠洋漁船其實有上千多家上千多條船那我們的這個管理觀察員總共會有多少人委員我們現在科學觀察員100位"},{"start":6475.433,"end":6490.938,"text":"那因為我們現在國際組織要求的這個涵蓋率就是每一艘船的這個觀察員上去的涵蓋率至少每個組織都不一樣有5%有7%的那目前我們的觀察員的派遣都符合國際組織的規定"},{"start":6493.058,"end":6512.391,"text":"OK 針對IU的部分我們希望農業署這邊的時候漁業署這邊的時候是能夠好好去加以規範不要讓這樣的事情一直鬧上國際的新聞好不好包委員是 這個我們會持續來加強推動好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝鄭振淺委員那下一位請陳廷飛委員質詢"},{"start":6521.838,"end":6522.981,"text":"謝謝主席我們請部長請部長"},{"start":6532.335,"end":6552.628,"text":"委員長部長早部長我想在農民移工我們已經討論很久了那麼在5月這個14年5月9號開始我們農業移工新制上路這個部分其實大家有很多的期待阿蓋像以前這樣看得到吃不到"},{"start":6554.151,"end":6572.645,"text":"應該不會 我們第一個跟委員報告 特別是委員關心的就是我們移工來 那我們產業那麼多 我們應該給需要的產業盡量的開開這個口 開那個窗戶吧那這個部分我想包括芽菜啊 包括有一些東西我們都已經草皮的部分都已經讓它進來了"},{"start":6574.707,"end":6592.846,"text":"所以說我們的項目越來越多有芽菜、有草皮、有食用菇菌還有相關的這些水稻育苗這個我們開放了可是我們開放了這些我們的農業的部分可是我們會不會"},{"start":6598.219,"end":6613.689,"text":"今天我們的農業別增加了可是我們是不是真的能夠到位把我們的移工到位然後讓他們真正能夠提出申請這才是重要所以我覺得我們要注意後續的"},{"start":6614.744,"end":6643.564,"text":"后续的一个观察也就是说这个农业移工新制上路之后大家有很多的期待可是期待之后呢会不会失望会变成像过去一样虽然我们开了一个门说现在可以申请农业移工可是最后真正能够申请的非常的爽所以部长我们要看的是后续我今天会提出这样的一个特别叮咛就是说我们"},{"start":6644.364,"end":6659.566,"text":"整個框架做得很大農業移工新制擴增至兩萬名農業的發展好像瞬間覺得我們人力充足了但是是不是如此"},{"start":6660.578,"end":6685.018,"text":"一個問號我們在基層都很清楚雖然每次標題都很大都有很多的期待可是是不是能夠轉嫁到每一個農業別是不是能夠讓每一個故宮都能夠得到他們要的人數跟標準這才是重要那另外一個部分是部長"},{"start":6686.431,"end":6697.216,"text":"這一次因為氣候的因素所以呢我們一件一件慢慢的所有的農業大概都已經發生了財損那麼現在"},{"start":6701.072,"end":6717.557,"text":"到了最後這個階段就是龍眼荔枝龍眼荔枝其實我在4月份就已經提醒了已經發公文了那麼現在所有的區公所所有的農民其實"},{"start":6719.244,"end":6747.907,"text":"一直跟我們說到底現在怎麼辦原本花都開得很多花整個很漂亮啦大家都想說今年應該沒問題結果不好意思都沒掉過都是空炮彈好現在龍眼跟荔枝我知道因為你們大概5月會去做再一次的一個勘栽龍眼荔枝現在5月15勘栽之後就可以確定了嗎"},{"start":6750.138,"end":6771.108,"text":"歷史應該是通過了嘛5月15開會就會四方會議就會過然後龍眼呢龍眼呢還沒有龍眼要晚一點怎麼晚你要跟大家知道告知大家知道因為你們的你們的速度跟民眾跟農民的感覺是不一樣的"},{"start":6771.856,"end":6791.108,"text":"我跟委員報告就是其實從芒果龍眼荔枝的部分他的花很漂亮可是花不結果沒有用沒錯所以我們要去看他花有沒有結果然後有沒有落果所以他那個時間會慢一點但是一定是在他們採收前一定會決定好你們龍眼預計什麼時候這個可能要看當地的氣候的部分沒有現在基本上差不多這個部長署長我跟你講"},{"start":6800.473,"end":6801.536,"text":"大家一定都知道 現在是丹寧的時間了那個花完全已經都空炮彈了啦"},{"start":6808.123,"end":6834.225,"text":"所以你現在荔枝是5月15他們說5月底可以5月底荔枝是5月15號四方會刊之後大概就可以確認了好 龍眼是5月底是這要確定喔5月底大概看了四方會刊之後也可以確定了這台都沒辦法修正啦依照我們在現場所看到的過去現在"},{"start":6835.424,"end":6857.77,"text":"的狀況其實大家心裡都有一把尺那我們也尊重所有公務人員你們比較仔細一點那也沒有問題起碼我們把時間跟民眾說跟農民說他們心裡就會知道說他們現在的狀況我都請他們先去跟區公所通報啦"},{"start":6860.851,"end":6879.496,"text":"那通報完要到達百分之二十的災損一定是沒問題那我們的荔枝五月十五要做四番會刊我們農演五月底這個時間拜託農糧署的部分要確定一下不然農民的心會痛苦痛苦"},{"start":6880.956,"end":6895.686,"text":"他們要把它處理掉也沒辦法不處理看到又覺得心裡很痛所以你讓他有一個時間點他們比較能夠處理狀況所以我們大概就把這個時間確定了好 謝謝部長"},{"start":6896.266,"end":6918.08,"text":"好 再來就是我們0126的這個大地震我們在預警農會我們有開了一次會議是我們經濟委員會下去的當天因為我們部長在處理我們川普關稅的問題所以沒辦法下去那當天其實我們大概都有做了一個結論就是18個農會有超過2億的這個建物整建費用其實還比較多"},{"start":6925.225,"end":6951.443,"text":"現在報出來橋櫃可能兩倍以上但是沒有關係其實我覺得既然要處理那就一次到位所以我覺得說當天我們有做了一個結論就是說針對玉井南化南溪大內東山左鎮這幾個部分大概是我們的這個陳俊元市長這邊來做處理大概他們都陸續報上來對 現在已經陸續在處理了陸續報上來"},{"start":6955.685,"end":6963.37,"text":"因為他們也有心要處理像玉井他就要整建好幾個農會都要整建玉井南化他的臨時處所我們已經找好了這個部分要先處理"},{"start":6976.297,"end":6990.633,"text":"就是說我們要一次整建的然後臨時處所的我們該處理該幫忙的都一次到位然後在其他的農會有各個包括我們農糧署愛林的尤其我們那個糧倉"},{"start":6992.574,"end":7020.108,"text":"糧倉像大內的糧倉這個部分還有我們其他的地方有一些糧倉是我們農糧署的部分然後還有我們有一些比較重要的一些必須要補助的我們都希望在藉著這個機會農糧署跟我們的輔導師應該去合作合作因為既然都解凍了"},{"start":7020.988,"end":7038.856,"text":"以前是說我們沒有算但是今天我們就解凍了33億我們就解凍了33億我覺得我們既然有這樣的預算我們就應該讓相關的單位有所感我們今天就要解凍了33億了所以部長這個部分再麻煩18個農會因為0126的大地震所造成的這個損害的部分"},{"start":7047.739,"end":7070.115,"text":"一套給處理好不要再一次兩次三次那都會痛而且花的經費又更多所以部長再拜託我想我們會盡量然後也不會說等農會送過來然後說可或不可其實在寫計劃的時候就要溝通這樣的話效果會比較快我想我們請同仁跟農會那邊來計劃怎麼修就好謝謝"},{"start":7076.783,"end":7081.284,"text":"好謝謝陳廷飛委員那下一位請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席楊瓊英發言人請邀請部長請部長"},{"start":7099.056,"end":7122.843,"text":"我們的農民看天吃飯所以我們好不容易也通過了農業保險法在這個執行的過程當中有很多的不方便所以我們也一直在精進一直在改進所以當時我們也推出了農業天然災害限地照相APP因為我們的農民比較孤兒"},{"start":7124.824,"end":7133.01,"text":"那他要用運用這個AI的這個系統呢他似乎我們還要去輔導之但是到目前為止我們發覺還是有很多的農民不知道要怎麼用尤其我們這個農損的時候你說阿我不會受這個我們聽了很難過所以在這樣的情況之下本行認為我們在整個數位"},{"start":7148.562,"end":7159.133,"text":"工具對APP的一個操作似乎還有提升的一個空間那目前我們看到3月底你們累進的從112年5月開始上路到現在下載的大概是6萬7千次那所以本席要請教我們有了工具我們希望要能夠用得上"},{"start":7171.465,"end":7192.194,"text":"因為我們農民我們一定要好好的這個這個這個協助所以本校請教到現在運用你所謂的農產天然災害限地照相APP而去申請的有多少件我第一個我要報告就是說現在APP下載大概有七萬一千多"},{"start":7193.254,"end":7199.862,"text":"一次啦齁那以去年最多因為齁他要去拍的時候這個是下載對這個是下載所以本下請教實際上真正有運用而上傳的有上傳的有75萬張齁"},{"start":7208.211,"end":7221.386,"text":"特別是在去年的三次颱風因為有災害以後農民才會去照相所以我們應該去看去年的災害的時候他是瞬間的暴增表示在那段時間有太多人用因為75萬張其實是蠻多的啦"},{"start":7223.829,"end":7245.404,"text":"那接下來到今年為止大概有四十幾項四十幾項的天然災害我們開出去了然後我們看這段時間還是很多用APP先去做證據保全的部分那等到我們開了天然災害以後他就拿這個照片上傳的照片就可以讓公所去做後端的查核"},{"start":7246.264,"end":7269.291,"text":"所以本席要告訴你的也就是說這個立即是非常的重要那麼呢尤其現在鄉鎮公所的人力也是都有限因為他們後端還要做查核的這個工作那麼我們也希望在這個部分能夠好好的再去推廣再去輔導讓大家都可以在第一時間可以保留到這個證據我想這個是對農民非常大的一個幫助"},{"start":7273.072,"end":7296.46,"text":"中部像他剛剛陳廷輝委員講的農園中部有很多農園對不對如果農民覺得他的情況有一些有益的時候他都可以先照降做證據保全所以這個就是你們要宣導嗎要去宣導嘛不然現在急降雨非常的多一沖下去了不見了那這個農民就非常的損失所以這個精進的方案必須要再去提升讓這個立即以及保"},{"start":7299.341,"end":7304.285,"text":"保護這個證據一定要好好的去落實才不會我們有了這個工具但是是用不上我們希望好好的協助我們的農民接下來本席要跟你討論的也就是我們現在寵物美農業者那這個非常的多當然也有部分的糾紛"},{"start":7319.358,"end":7323.26,"text":"但是目前是社會所需在這個毛小孩的部分非常的重要在整個產業當然你們也提出了一個定型化契約出來以供參考"},{"start":7334.568,"end":7361.804,"text":"對以供參考嗎 是不是是就是你們提出這個定型化契約不是範本的意思就是範本嘛 以供參考那麼本席也在這邊要求也就是我們針對於保障動物福利與飼主權益具有積極非常好的一個意義那所以呢在這個落實程度你們也要有一個輔導的機制而不是只有公告在那邊也要輔導"},{"start":7363.089,"end":7377.086,"text":"我們後續公告以後我們後續會找工會像美容工會的部分然後他還有一些美容的照護士嘛那這個部分我們都會要求他們來去講解我們要怎麼樣透過合約去保障雙方的權益"},{"start":7378.968,"end":7384.731,"text":"部長這個就對了也是本席的要求因為工會呢也是我們最好的志工我們把政府怎麼樣可以協助民眾的我們必須要告訴他們清楚那也要請工會拜託他們也趕快給他們的會員來多做宣導"},{"start":7398.318,"end":7415.383,"text":"換句話說政府要主動宣導才能夠落實才能夠落實這個也能夠達到施主本身的一個安心那業者他也能夠安心達到一個最好的一個平衡點這個非常的重要一定要努力的去宣導我們會加強來做"},{"start":7417.304,"end":7445.81,"text":"加強來做最後一個議題本下要請教也就是移工的這個部分114年5月9號這個月你們實施農業移工的新制那由一萬兩千人開放到現在你們宣告的兩萬人那我要特別感謝在三個會期我們一直在討論移工的這個部分因為農民真的很辛苦他有的沒有辦法一整年度但是有的類別也需要就像我們的"},{"start":7446.63,"end":7461.227,"text":"草皮 你們就納入豆芽菜也納入這個就是人民所需政府就要探求明末聽到人民的需求那但是呢我們拿到了這個核許證的時候呢之後"},{"start":7461.687,"end":7463.127,"text":"我們必須還要到這個勞動部去申請在這個依法90天內要去申請喔那但是本市認為我們的農業跟一般是不一樣的他有季節性的需求有"},{"start":7477.934,"end":7485.866,"text":"這個時間性的需求所以在這樣情況之下本期具體建議我們開放的人數所以本期具體建議我們的農業部應該跟勞動部你們去討論一個怎麼樣的一個迅速"},{"start":7492.856,"end":7516.535,"text":"符合條件的怎麼樣迅速去核發你不要等到兩三個月我的這個季節需求已經過了那這個是太浪費了所以要怎麼樣能夠加速他們申請的這個流程我跟委員說委員非常關心就是說就算我們有那麼多增加了一些人但是如果效率太慢的話過了那個時節"},{"start":7517.836,"end":7538.984,"text":"所以我們有跟勞動部在談因為勞動部我們這邊審的完會給勞動部勞動部可能有自己的一套程序那我們希望說是不是可以針對農業的部分單獨拉出來去做審查因為本期是深怕我們有這個美意從一萬兩千人到兩萬人但是如果行政斷鏈"},{"start":7540.664,"end":7560.979,"text":"很沒差的所以這個部分你預計要怎麼做呢所以我現在我會再跟勞動部來特別是跟他們部長直接說可以說審查的過程中因為農業它比較特殊性有季節性的部分是不是可以先拉出來單獨審不管它人多人少一段時間就要去審一次那這個時間要怎麼壓縮你看你多久時間可以告訴我們農民大家都拭目以待都在等"},{"start":7570.057,"end":7583.615,"text":"你們的方案你跟勞動部紅部長兩個討論你們的方案因為我們確實有季節性的問題時效性的問題嘛因為他有一部分還要修法嘛對不對勞動部可能你說明一下好了"},{"start":7584.977,"end":7590.923,"text":"我們農業部的部門我們一定會壓縮時間儘快去處理申請案件至於勞動部的審查機制恐怕涉及相關的法規我們必須要跟他確認說有沒有修法的問題這個部分再來做解釋你要談嘛 你要談才知道答案嘛第一個 壓縮你農業部自己可以做的競訴"},{"start":7606.801,"end":7610.166,"text":"依法禁訴第二個立即跟勞動部來討論我們要怎麼樣可以把這個時間流程能夠簡便啊才能夠真正幫助到我們的農民嘛這樣這樣委員我知道您的關心我想我這個禮拜我們一定會"},{"start":7623.41,"end":7645.526,"text":"包括我自己跟部長那邊我直接跟他講然後開相關的工作會議然後如果說他們要修法可能要慢一點如果不用修法就可以立即來處理然後月底之前來跟委員做說明月底之前說明 謝謝好 謝謝楊委員那下一位請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":7659.074,"end":7674.495,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請部長來 請陳部長部長好 委員好最近花蓮台東"},{"start":7675.816,"end":7702.311,"text":"因為氣候異常很多的農作物受到這個今年很多地分包括花東地區包括從台東以南其實都有陸陸續續有些災情對對也謝謝農業部農糧署相關的單位也去特別做天然災害的這個部分的一個補助那我看"},{"start":7703.911,"end":7731.079,"text":"也特別提到這個還沒有進行的也請這個農業部農糧署那個來協助花蓮西瓜這個也是一樣受到氣候變遷的影響這個相關的西瓜這個摘損很慘重這個本席也特別新聞給農業部針對這個西瓜因為氣候異常這個"},{"start":7733.53,"end":7759.071,"text":"他的瓜藤啊這個提早壞死然後相關的劣果都產生所以這個部分也能夠去實際的去調查去了解當然包括那個這個文旦也是一樣文旦也因為有這樣的相關的這些氣候異常也有這樣的一個那個他的那個花還在"},{"start":7760.495,"end":7784.863,"text":"開花期間就提早掉落這樣的問題是不是可以請我跟委員報告包括西瓜包括您剛才說的那個柚子文旦的部分其實我們東部的那個農糧署東部東區的分署還有我們的花蓮改良廠其實都持續的在觀察重要的品項那以西瓜來講如果說其實它是一個病害"},{"start":7786.163,"end":7810.807,"text":"應該是病害的話我們就希望說他能夠做早期的這些噴藥的管理那如果是真的天然災害所影響的話我想我們會根據相關的程序來公告不過現在還在判斷看起來是應該是因為不同的區位所以我們會比較普遍的去觀察好就麻煩這個農業部還有農糧署好另外一個議題跟這個"},{"start":7815.049,"end":7828.248,"text":"防疫署有關係這個度物傳染病防治條例第34條規定因施檢疫物之輸入人或其代理人"},{"start":7829.178,"end":7857.607,"text":"因施檢疫務到達這個相關公告的這些港站子就是海關嘛就是說這個通常都是機場比較多因向這個輸入因向輸出入動物檢疫機關申請檢疫要申請檢疫這事過去人工的時候都比較沒有問題現在AI電子化的時代"},{"start":7859.533,"end":7885.793,"text":"這個財政部的關務署這個都會是用這個電子系統電子系統現在很重要的這個第一計劃因私檢疫物資輸入人或其代理人這個其就是輸入人的代理人沒有錯吧其代理人就是輸入人的代理人沒有錯"},{"start":7886.96,"end":7915.582,"text":"那因為電子化時代就會常常會有這個冒名頂替的這種狀況這個輸入人是被冒名的經過這個關武署去查確實這個我們農業部的相關單位防疫署也去查也確實被報輸入人被冒名頂替"},{"start":7916.57,"end":7935.846,"text":"所以相關的這些然後你們就去罰這個代理人秩序人既然是被冒名抵替就沒有所謂的代理人就會產生這個聯動的話所以最新的判決台北高等行政法院在今年的4月11號的一個判決"},{"start":7939.677,"end":7965.527,"text":"此為實名認證系統未能防止冒用他人名義註冊之漏洞所致這個很明確了公務署的這個系統確實被有這樣的一個下機檢討的地方所以這個農業部在處理這樣的案子的時候也必須考量到既然沒有輸入人當然沒有什麼代理人的"},{"start":7966.497,"end":7994.644,"text":"所以這個部分是一個通案的去檢討這個部分好不好謝謝委員的提醒那雖然說公務組這樣的一個有一個案例在那邊那農業部的部分我想我們會來更積極的對謝謝委員的提醒好不好好這個上次有跟部長還有那個林業署也提到現在這個台灣黑熊棲息範圍"},{"start":7997.102,"end":8007.728,"text":"這個已經跟人類的活動奇異的重疊非常的嚴重這個是一方面就動物來講是好現象但是怎麼樣"},{"start":8009.976,"end":8030.522,"text":"這個我們的部落我們的人我們的鄉親怎麼樣也能夠獲得保護這個是林業署農業部的新的課題啦新的課題這個上次我也提到這個濁西鄉這個中正部落你看這已經跑到海拔"},{"start":8032.903,"end":8041.428,"text":"170-200公尺之內的這樣的一個地點這是一個非常非常需要新的課題好不好"},{"start":8044.461,"end":8062.798,"text":"黑熊的保育其實我們現在正在啟動更詳細的族群的調查那相關的牠的棲息地牠的海拔高度那個都沒有問題啦現在是人怎麼保護啦是我們的部落我們的人怎麼保護對好不好那這個要怎麼樣的一個方式大家共存的方式來處理好 謝謝"},{"start":8069.977,"end":8074.603,"text":"好 謝謝鄭委員 那下一位請張嘉峻委員質詢謝謝主席 我想請陳部長來 請部長"},{"start":8089.738,"end":8093.642,"text":"部長早安我想先請問您一個比較輕鬆的問題這個蚵仔煎跟蚵仔麵線你比較喜歡哪一個還是都喜歡我經常是蚵仔麵線配蚵仔煎"},{"start":8106.755,"end":8119.004,"text":"這個很棒的組合我自己也非常非常喜歡吃蚵仔煎跟蚵仔味噌就是你我從小吃到大的味道那背後靠的其實就是無數的蚵農撐起來的那接下來我想要請教部長您知道我們台灣整個牡蠣產業關係到多少人的生計嗎"},{"start":8128.683,"end":8143.862,"text":"我知道現在目前大概有兩千多戶嘛一戶如果用四個人去算那光養殖區大概就有八千八千應該不止八千多然後還有那個它的一個產業鏈它的產業鏈那個至少大概一萬五到兩萬以上"},{"start":8147.346,"end":8161.895,"text":"是 可能本席這邊的資料更多一點可能有2萬至4萬左右後面還有很多請教 對那他們的平均年齡目前本席拿到的資料是55歲所以就是這2至4萬人每年創造41億的產值那現在台灣的養科產業卻面臨非常嚴重的一個挑戰就是越南進口牡蠣的問題這個部分部長瞭解嗎"},{"start":8175.938,"end":8185.21,"text":"我了解就是從108年開始越南的牡蠣大概開始從2000噸到去年大概是69000多噸是那這段時間剛好2000噸到69000多噸6000進口啦進口對然後最主要是因為"},{"start":8191.818,"end":8211.196,"text":"我們這幾年來氧科的剛好遇到一些天然災害所以我們的產量有降低那整體的需求大概是2萬到2萬2千噸左右這個是我們的消費需求所以它有一些會越南的負我當然理解但是現在本席比較擔心的是就是這個"},{"start":8212.398,"end":8215.881,"text":"蚵仔覆苗的問題因為沒有苗哪有蚵那當然你說如果氣節調節這個我們都可以理解但是呢我們現在台灣的蚵苗啊現在大部分包括九成喔都是靠海放竹架看老天爺的臉色對啊就雲林嘉義我們全部都是"},{"start":8235.818,"end":8250.054,"text":"自然覆苗那這個部分呢就等於是會拉低我們的競爭力我們現在台灣的人工覆苗的技術如何呢跟委員報告現在人工覆苗技術在我們水市所的開發之下現在已經基本上成功"},{"start":8250.595,"end":8266.276,"text":"那現在問題就是價格的問題然後水智所這邊有雲林的養科的相關的協會有進駐然後他們現在的量技術也學到了所以我在想就是說他現在目前大概是從40塊已經降到29塊了"},{"start":8268.82,"end":8283.902,"text":"這就是本席想要講的部長很了解這個狀況也掌握這個重點重點就在於價錢價格的問題價錢這個中國大陸跟那個越南他們的人工覆苗價格成本比我們低因為他們量多"},{"start":8285.203,"end":8300.268,"text":"所以他們的競爭力就比我們好那我們台灣不是沒有這個技術我們水市所的技術也很高但是就是成本太高這一點部長有什麼因應的辦法嗎這個部分我正在跟漁業署跟水市所協調"},{"start":8301.869,"end":8320.042,"text":"我們的苗一定是後端的農民、漁民要用所以我可能在不管是雲林、嘉峪或台南我們先找一些釋放區讓他們用人工的苗去培育如果說釋放區不錯的時候漁民就會跟上"},{"start":8320.822,"end":8333.172,"text":"所以這個部分如果說我們有找到相關的區位的時候我前端的那些人工養殖的苗我可能做一些小部分的這些加差的一個協助我們不要用補助我們用協助這樣子的話可能"},{"start":8337.034,"end":8346.918,"text":"讓這個示範區能夠順利的養成那農民後面才會跟進對這就是本席想要建議給部長的就是說我們要趕快跟進我們要趕快把鼓勵農民人工覆苗因為這個價格如果降低然後覆苗這個率"},{"start":8354.5,"end":8360.924,"text":"可以說是提高的話那農民他的收入也會更穩定而且我們也會減少對於越南這個進口牡蠣的需求這一點我也是希望部長可以幫忙因為我們其實不是沒有產池不是沒有技術更不是沒有市場所以現在最最需要的就是部長跟署長挺身而出幫他們一把"},{"start":8380.616,"end":8387.661,"text":"讓他們這個產業能夠迎接下一個世代的挑戰這一點拜託部長會 我們會努力來做那我們努力保持住這個曾經被票選為最能代表台灣小吃的這個蚵仔煎希望它可以繼續成為我們記憶中最台灣的這個味道那另外本席想要問的就是剛才好多位委員都在講"},{"start":8404.651,"end":8414.218,"text":"有關於這個我們台灣的糧食安全 糧食自主希望說這個糧食自主 糧食安全絕對不能拱手送出絕對不能夠農產品零關稅進口尤其是稻米部長這一點是不是可以請您給我一個說明說現在我們談判的狀況"},{"start":8424.085,"end":8448.996,"text":"我之前已經說過了就是在整個農業談判過程中我們一定是尋求雙贏的前提那就農業部來講我們一定會確保糧食安全那糧食安全裡面一個非常重要的品項就是稻米所以稻米的部分我想我們會我們會堅守我們農業部的立場就是說我們會保護因為它是糧食安全必要的一個品項然後我們也會讓產業的永續發展所以我們才會有糧食產業的升級方案"},{"start":8451.997,"end":8456.06,"text":"部長我舉一個例子上個禮拜日本的首相石破茂接受採訪的時候他就明確表達說絕對不會因為汽車而犧牲他們日本的農業那我也希望說部長也跟我們的賴總統建言說絕對不能犧牲農業也絕對不能零關稅進口這一點部長可以幫助農民做我們農業部本身的態度非常明確那院長也講到農民優先"},{"start":8480.379,"end":8493.979,"text":"總統也講不會放棄任何一個產業然後也特別關心我們的糧食的安全所以這個部分我想我們在談判過程中一定會用我們保護我們的農民的權益為前提之下去尋求雙贏"},{"start":8495.401,"end":8506.694,"text":"本席對您是有很深的期待既然您對您的這個方案有那麼多的堅持那最後我們其實是有取得共識就是有一個大家說 你說漲1.5塊然後可以怎麼樣 三年可以怎麼樣我們都接受了"},{"start":8511.36,"end":8527.691,"text":"但是你一定要用實際的行動去證明說這個方案有效而且呢絕對不能夠讓步假設你還零關稅進口的話我們這些方案我們兩個想的再美好都抵不過美國米便宜的美國米啊"},{"start":8528.491,"end":8543.551,"text":"我跟委員說明喔總統當時講零關稅談起不是說我們農產品都是零關稅這個我所了解我們如果零關稅我們完全沒有機會耶所以我們從來沒有在任職的談判過程中從來沒有用這種思維去處理的"},{"start":8543.891,"end":8562.463,"text":"是 所以拜託您一定要堅守住這個防線我想我們努力上週五那個農民自主行動聯盟有來到立法院來訴求來抗議他們希望說絕對不能農產品零關稅進口尤其是稻米那他們也有一個蠻務實的建議就是說在談判的過程當中可以納入農民團體 消費者團體食安跟農政學者的民間代表"},{"start":8570.429,"end":8580.247,"text":"讓人民也可以透過制度參與重大的農業談判那我想這也非常的合理不曉得部長願不願意在談判過程納入他們的聲音"},{"start":8581.294,"end":8601.248,"text":"我想農民產業的意見農業部隨時在溝通但是談判小組有談判小組的策略因為談判小組本身的這些策略其實我們的任何的這些策略的方案都會根據對方的一些挑戰或是一些需求來做動態的調整"},{"start":8602.589,"end":8630.041,"text":"所以農民的需求我們隨時掌握那這樣子本席是不是也請部長是不是也能夠主動來關心這些農民團體的這個聲音既然是您來召開吧他們聚集起來看他們到底是需求什麼因為我知道您也是很樂意下鄉的嘛尤其今天如果解凍案完成多了這33億我想你有很多可能現在握在整個掌控在布裡面的大家就可以趕快去幫助這些農漁民了好不好"},{"start":8632.042,"end":8657.492,"text":"我們會努力去跟農民做溝通好謝謝好謝謝張家俊委員好那下一位請謝一鳳委員那我先宣告陳超明委員後我們休息5分鐘因為已經開很久好謝謝主席我想要請部長好有請陳部長"},{"start":8665.342,"end":8680.308,"text":"委員長部長早安我想要請問一下2018年農業部曾經決定要推動雞蛋全面洗選那希望把洗選蛋從三成提高到100%但是"},{"start":8683.209,"end":8698.22,"text":"这么多年从2018到现在你看全面洗选其实还没有完全到位你们到底有没有想要推动现在到底遇到什么问题第一个是不是"},{"start":8699.301,"end":8721.929,"text":"我們現在飼養機的機場有沒有辦法整體的配合我們洗選蛋的這樣子的一個供應的系統你雞蛋上面的噴墨到底會不會造成消費者相關他們在食用上的疑慮你是不是能說明清楚"},{"start":8723.254,"end":8749.744,"text":"謝委員非常關心這個雞蛋的洗選的部分那現在目前洗選的百分比大概是50到一半從2018年到現在從30%上升到50我們曾經檢討過第一個就是洗選的量能洗選場的量能這是第一個第二個更重要就是說你後端的這個洗選蛋的供應量所以我們現在一直在努力看看可不可以將早餐店"},{"start":8750.624,"end":8776.911,"text":"因為早餐店本身如果經過洗選它是比較安全衛生的如果它早餐店能夠順利地用洗選單的時候那前端因為有需求所以牧場端就會進到洗選端所以兩個關鍵因素一個是洗選場的量能那洗選場量能現在大概起來了因為在過去幾年我們有做協助現在就是需求端如果拉得出來那就會往這邊繼續努力所以大家不喜歡用洗選單"},{"start":8777.731,"end":8802.066,"text":"大家還是喜歡傳統的買蛋用挑的所以我們現在就是要從市場端包括餐廳包括早餐店那為什麼民眾會有這樣子的我們現在在溝通啦我比較不喜歡用強制的一下強制的人就能反彈為什麼民眾會喜歡這樣子不喜歡洗選蛋是不是有什麼原因有洗選蛋是他們覺得噴墨會造成影響還是說"},{"start":8808.07,"end":8830.447,"text":"還有是不是那對於我們現在養雞大家在談寵物福利的相關的問題嘛那國外很流行的是放牧雞嘛那我們在台灣其實放牧雞的方式我們沒有那麼多的就是說養雞場沒有那麼多的空間那未來我們新的現代化的養雞場要怎麼樣子能夠達到"},{"start":8834.53,"end":8853.043,"text":"動物福利的這樣子的一個設施呢我想我們後續在推養雞場的改建或興建的時候其實立體化的栽培是全世界一個趨勢包括養豬場養雞場它的立體化栽培它的空間就有機會變大那這個部分我想台南已經有一個廠"},{"start":8854.565,"end":8871.625,"text":"你趕快來我們彰化弄一個啊是不是我們彰化也是有三分之一顆的雞蛋全部都是彰化來的現在彰化本身的牌照是被鎖住的因為我們也不希望那個養雞場新增太快那立體化呢"},{"start":8872.005,"end":8889.132,"text":"但是立體化改進立體化的話我們可以來考慮就是它立體化以後量變多了那是不是可以用其他的其他的廠類是合作的方式來處理而且需要現代化嘛那現代化的方式你能夠增加投資那是不是可以結合"},{"start":8889.972,"end":8917.373,"text":"企業的ESG相關的這樣子的誘因進去你才能促使這些飼養戶能夠去投資嘛投資一定是需要成本的在這種成本沒有誘因的情況下養雞戶是不會要去做這相關的事情對 這個我想謝謝委員的提醒包括ESG的導入包括一些融資貸款的低利貸款的誘因還有對於環境有序"},{"start":8918.133,"end":8935.575,"text":"對於不影響其他周邊的住戶這個都是我們需要改進的部分嘛是不是你沒有提供相關的誘因的情況下飼養戶怎麼會改進沒有改進的情況下影響的也是全部的居民啊是不是"},{"start":8937.043,"end":8958.373,"text":"我想謝謝委員的提醒我們後續如果有一個比較好的規劃也許可以到彰化去開一個說明會然後去讓這些這些基農就是養雞的這些最主要的大戶的部分讓他了解有什麼樣的方式可以讓環境更衛生然後不會變成零幣作用然後立體化栽培提高它的育成效率這個部分我想我們再來規劃來提供"},{"start":8959.994,"end":8980.452,"text":"好那我再請教第二問題今天有非常多的委員都講到了落農其實我們知道落農的就是說牛啊或者是羊啊他們影響乳量最大的部分就是他們的飼料就是牧草"},{"start":8981.913,"end":9002.26,"text":"過去我們有說到希望國內的青稞玉米的產量能夠提高那你有沒有辦法做到提高到46萬公噸有沒有辦法這個就是在我們的雜糧轉做裡面他轉青稞玉米的政策誘因要下購"},{"start":9003.401,"end":9010.76,"text":"那這樣的話就會變成清割玉米然後讓它有一些木草可以還有一些蘭薇草的部分也是一樣這個我們正在設計"},{"start":9012.318,"end":9033.389,"text":"有没有什么样的政策要因你设计你有没有跟主要的乳品供应商共同来讨论他们对于乳量的据我了解他们对于乳量的控制第一个就是从他的就是饲料的这个部分嘛那"},{"start":9033.869,"end":9060.899,"text":"如果他們的要求裡面沒有能夠接受國內我們的青稞玉米那當然我們有非常強大的改良廠啊我們可以就是製造出來就是我們的牛能夠生產出優質乳量的時候他所需要的這個甘草嘛那為什麼他們要用國外進口的百慕達草為什麼"},{"start":9062.699,"end":9077.201,"text":"我想基本上我們台灣的氣候的關係我們在木茶收割以後它的乾燥跟打包有沒有它的效率比較不好而且它的濕度水分含量比較高所以很容易台灣話叫凹到有沒有它就會比較"},{"start":9078.703,"end":9105.771,"text":"口感或質感都比較不好所以這個部分這也會影響乳量嘛對 然後我們在續長那個什麼我們的敘事所其實已經有一些比較新進的新進的技術所以我才會說我們在第一個轉做的部分把牧草納進去如果第一個鼓勵他們去種第二個就是在乾燥打包的那個技術如果能夠讓我們的畜牧業者認同的時候那相關的相關的這些飼料的轉移就會開始進行"},{"start":9107.111,"end":9121.948,"text":"那所以目前還沒有辦法現在有少部分啦每一年都還是有少部分的國內的這些牧草進到我們的飼料系統因為我們要雜糧轉做我希望說我們對於這個我們必須要就是優化我們整個就是農作業"},{"start":9122.949,"end":9138.306,"text":"也希望說在大家都仰賴進口的牧草的情況下是不是能夠採用就地的牧草那這個部分我相信以我們農業部的技術是有辦法去克服那是不是能夠設下一個目標"},{"start":9139.527,"end":9159.021,"text":"讓我們農業部對於我們的使用國內牧草就是我們的飼養使用國內牧草能不能有一個共同的目標那這個情況下是不是然後大家共同來做那當然也需要所有的乳品業者共同的配合是不是我想第一個就是我們回去會針對"},{"start":9162.103,"end":9184.949,"text":"牧草的政策原因就是轉做的時候是不是有機會把這個機器人打破只要他願意種就可以得到一些獎勵然後這個部分如果有的話面積會比較多然後會再跟飼養牛的畜牧場去合作我們先找一些示範願意來做的然後去做配方的調整那可以的話我們就會大力來推動"},{"start":9185.669,"end":9204.963,"text":"好 我希望說我們可以建立這樣的目標不然過去我們在推動一段期間都沒有成效的情況下未來希望可以達到目標那當然也能夠讓台灣的農地做有效的利用然後能夠達到永續的發展好 謝謝委員提醒 我們會努力謝謝"},{"start":9208.807,"end":9229.451,"text":"好謝謝謝一鳳委員那下一位請陳超明委員質詢那陳委員質詢後我們就是休息五分鐘首先謝謝主席那有請我們陳部長來陳部長"},{"start":9239.443,"end":9257.482,"text":"部長好,剛剛我聽到謝玉鳳在講洗淺蛋,苗栗的蛋沒有像彰化那麼多,但是洗的方面我比較不清楚,我是剛剛聽到,但是淺蛋現在有一個AI機師,而且非常好。"},{"start":9258.428,"end":9283.849,"text":"那一家公司要跟我們農業部去合作去談的時候整個困難很多所以他只有外銷到國外沒有在台灣因為台灣的機場也不大但是你們在採購這些就要去看如果可以就統一採購給機場去做用AI在行可以把蛋最高級的完全依照國外的水準這是剛剛謝委員"},{"start":9285.791,"end":9310.271,"text":"在執行的時候我談到這一點那如果你有需要我就提供這家公司給你們真的非常好好 謝謝委員如果有任何的新的技術跟資訊在整個吸鹽設備上面來講我們也可以推介給現在的吸鹹廠不是 吸鹹廠他們又下不了手說價格都很貴 宰到人家都不想做"},{"start":9311.493,"end":9335.727,"text":"軟體都以為很便宜我只是這樣講真的要提升我們這個水準一定要用現代化的技術科技的去做我只提醒這一點量少廠商也不一定願意做這個注意一下但是如果在台灣做成功的話可以銷到世界各國去好希望這一點我是提出來再來今天是我們經濟委員會"},{"start":9338.13,"end":9354.737,"text":"來解凍我們農業部跟公平委員會那談到解凍最近發生了很多的事情都說我們災害黨在刪預算在凍結預算那我剛剛請我辦公室把他列出來"},{"start":9356.075,"end":9370.639,"text":"在114年度農業部本部的預算減列委員會裡面2500萬零包時減列0水保時減列0漁業時減列0房檢時減列是0等於刪你們的預算是0再來農經時也是0農糧時也是0農田水利時也是0刪列你們的預算"},{"start":9384.864,"end":9393.572,"text":"那凍結多少?有,你的本部是2.34億,林保是2200萬年,水保是1000萬年,那個漁業是5300萬,黃金是500萬,農金是200萬,農糧是3000萬,農田水綠是凍結500萬,"},{"start":9410.726,"end":9415.95,"text":"你剛才唸的這個數據一個證明就是什麼我們經濟委員會的委員用專業的方式來看我們農業部的預算所以他刪的是一個合理的我們被刪的是什麼是在黨團裡面刪的你不要亂說把凍結預算說刪了你是老實啦 我不好意思講你啦你還是很專業"},{"start":9440.55,"end":9461.87,"text":"那有的其他委員大家在這個經濟委員會裡面都一群二子怎麼可以這樣在電視台亂講不是 那個是在黨團 黨團在提案的時候黨團出來也差不多這樣子沒有 黨團出來 農業部曾經要被刪到剩下零咧哪裏農業部會改改 後面的承擔叫這個經濟委員會這些人不能做啊我們怎麼敢去面對農民"},{"start":9463.331,"end":9476.168,"text":"不然五百萬是拿來賭的所以像您要想辦法不然這樣沒有 您對農業了解你們就OK所以我不好意思跟你講你真的比較老實一點講得無法無天的一片造假虛偽"},{"start":9478.103,"end":9492.394,"text":"真的沒有這樣的事情你們亂講出來我想我們農業部發出來的一定都是真實的我跟您講不是一定怎麼樣不要配合上面真正的大家在這個地方審查預算誰有跟你們亂過誰有跟你們亂刪過你們自己人如果再刪你們不曉得嗎"},{"start":9498.24,"end":9523.266,"text":"比在野黨高高高二百,不是我們在調和的時候哪裡有這樣我是要講一下,現在大壩面如獨如我,我要把事實澄清不然這口氣真的吞不下去,讓你們說到不聽話好像執政黨很清高,在野黨都亂山綠山我希望好好檢討一下,朝野的和諧很重要啊我講一下不針對你,我是把事情講出來"},{"start":9524.349,"end":9549.565,"text":"好不好 當然啦 參了預算 五二兩要改止我只希望你留下來 你有沒有信心留下來說留下來你就笑 我會替你保健 因為你是腳踏實地在做事情的人你管你預算你也不敢亂花欸剛剛是給你表態而已 跟上面先是效忠我達到你的目的 留下來吧"},{"start":9551.159,"end":9554.651,"text":"留下來以後我再替有幾件事情要拜託你"},{"start":9555.737,"end":9581.602,"text":"我也謝謝你苗栗的冷鏈計畫你也給我們360萬做前期的規劃那後期的規劃很重要冷鏈一流冷鏈物流冷鏈的知識改得好我相信會帶動臺灣農業的一個發展也能保障農民生產的權益因為我現在去了解說現在的技術突破變化的太快"},{"start":9582.902,"end":9601.329,"text":"這臺灣這一點好好去把它鍛煉一下把這整個做下來可以的話到國外隨時大家都能生成我只這一點要愛情你要好好拜託別說我自己手手的自己用用的你就不要給我我告訴你你剛剛的校中行政院長一定聽得到了"},{"start":9602.728,"end":9615.363,"text":"要不要補助計畫出來好好審你不要笑我不答很曖昧我就很緊張我現在不知道怎麼回答您的問題你這樣子也不敢回答你給我的話你怕被上面罵我們在委員長你給的怕被上面罵嗎大膽一點該做的就要做我們回到專業"},{"start":9623.792,"end":9648.936,"text":"就是您剛才講的冷鏈的計畫我們提供了一些規劃費規劃完了以後我們會規劃後的方案跟它的規模還有它的營運主體我們會經過審查會在可能的範圍之內我想區域冷鏈物理中心是一個非常重要非常重要我們會來協助但是還是要看最後的規劃出來的這些規模跟它的經營主體還有它的相關的這些設計這個我們後續會透過審查來確定好的"},{"start":9652.517,"end":9678.879,"text":"農糧市長你最了解你台中分屎出來我會請教過你好幾次你要下來指導我會做的完美給你好不好你還要留給我去做以前是我不會做現在是從頭都要設計好不要改來改去我們的確診抓住這一點好不好再來我經常拜託的農奉醫港直銷中心我們的規劃大概完成也是最近要送進來"},{"start":9680.473,"end":9695.63,"text":"我常常給你愛情,給你榮榮,你會不會有危難?我容然是要做最好的請多多幫忙那個地點很漂亮,你有沒有去過?我昨天還去看歌我們現在的現狀,我看歌走出去了"},{"start":9696.943,"end":9711.268,"text":"都在旁邊離岸婚禮也在那一邊地點非常優越前臺灣省找不到了我的照片再傳給你看晚上照片起來非常漂亮真的是地方創新能給農民有很高的"},{"start":9712.649,"end":9729.27,"text":"以後量以外那以後變成一個人潮的中心我照片給你我昨天特地去看我跟小孩子去看課現在的量雖然沒有贏但是還能達到四分之三那以後中心幫幫忙好不好"},{"start":9730.18,"end":9750.997,"text":"我想同樣的我們也提供了大概四百八十幾萬的規劃費嘛我要跟委員報告其實我們現在遇到一個更重要的問題就是財務法以後農業部的非常多的預算要被切出去所以相對的我們在符合我們農業部在協助的部分特別是在你們這邊提到的這些直銷中心"},{"start":9751.818,"end":9775.894,"text":"然後他規劃出來以後我們看他的規模然後怎麼樣跟地方政府一起努力讓這個職教中心能夠成立這是最大目標啦保證財務法現在在大法庭釋憲我判斷會拖一兩年我的判斷不一定會通過因為兩邊還要再協調我不曉得有沒有鬆弛釋憲如果財務法的釋憲等解釋出來大概最少要拖兩年"},{"start":9783.139,"end":9803.56,"text":"兩邊還有溫柔斬牙清清澈澈在一些還沒有很確定以前雖然立法院過了但是所有執政黨都不承認他不喜歡的就收到大法庭序這也很奇怪但是我講如果沒有確定以前容然照舊的話請多多的幫忙跟協助好不好"},{"start":9804.04,"end":9822.312,"text":"會 我們會一起來跟地方政府一起來努力現在再來 我的問題比較小也沒有說很大白沙屯有一個農會要改建你昨天就說要跟我們答應那個是一個地標會給你農業部做很好的景點一天去找 需要50萬人 輪山輪海"},{"start":9826.368,"end":9845.224,"text":"他們送計畫來我們會來處理應該送計畫了喔還沒有送還沒有送我去追他們幫幫忙好不好媽祖要幫你保佑每一個人都升官你留任好不好謝謝真的喔上來要幫我打小工喔不然我不敢去別山路去拜拜因為我要看他"},{"start":9846.926,"end":9867.667,"text":"你這樣講就變成對價關係了不是對價關係我是拜託啦我想我們針對相關的地方的建設在中央的財政許可的範圍之內我們會來做協助啦然後重點就是說地方包括農會那個部分他也要有規劃案出來我們才能夠做評估啦保證啊你敢說對價關係我為人不敢說"},{"start":9871.05,"end":9886.987,"text":"你這名對價我們為民請命你要說對價你比檢察官還惡劣我是替百姓承認這個要解決了因為講到對價現在都隨便亂談只要一談就把你扣上去我有順利其通的感覺"},{"start":9887.628,"end":9903.918,"text":"不會啦 我想委員是從地方的角度來爭取經費的好啦 你不要講對價 等一下檢察官這邊有錄音 檢察官把我拿過去你受害我了喔 改天我會找機會跟你回覆一下喔好不好 謝謝 拜託了"},{"start":10292.165,"end":10297.229,"text":"好繼續開會那下一位請賴瑞榮委員質詢好謝昭偉請陳部長來請部長"},{"start":10312.567,"end":10340.485,"text":"部長辛苦了那個預算解凍我沒有特別的問題啦那我想要關心一下這個包括動保法包括寵物的一些相關問題現在其實越來越多人其實都有養寵物啦毛小孩的部分那其實我認為其實我們對於這些要建立更完整的一些規範對於相關的那我想問一下部長支持嗎對於整個這個寵物業者整個評鑑管理其實要做更多的加強來納入到整個體制內"},{"start":10342.546,"end":10370.993,"text":"對 我想謝謝委員的一個提醒就是其實寵物業的評鑑是一個非常重要的關鍵那可以去讓這個整個寵物業沒有 它撐制不起啦對 然後這個部分其實我們每一年都有評鑑但是我覺得那個強度跟那個標準其實可以定得更嚴謹讓我們的寵物產業能夠繼續往前提升所以部長同意朝這個方向嗎我們一定會做要多久時間可以來做一些強化的機制出來"},{"start":10371.861,"end":10379.787,"text":"這個部分其實它並不涉修法這個評鑑的部分我想我們會立即我會後就會多久的時間多久"},{"start":10380.891,"end":10402.768,"text":"一個月之內 我們新的一個評鑑的一個制度我希望不要劣幣足量幣 同時也能夠讓整個這個建立一個完善的形勢各位報告 是不是可以要六月底 因為六月底我們針對那個飼養的有沒有 飼養的那個部分一起我們一起提出來好不好 好 OK另外是大家也很提到了所謂的凍檢員的部分 這個部長支持這樣的方向嗎"},{"start":10403.368,"end":10429.09,"text":"對,我們在這次的修法也把它放進去就是去加強動物檢查人員的一個父權的關係就是他在緊急的情況之下可以進到私領域去但是他不會任意的進去啦對這個部分我想我們會可以確保這些寵物、動物的相關的一些權益是,動物的保護是非常重要的對,這個也涉及到台灣整體的形象啦如果常有一些虐待的一些情況的話這個對於台灣整體來講是不能的"},{"start":10431.932,"end":10460.84,"text":"那再來市主的一些良善的責任這個部分包括有時候常會遇到很多棄養甚至有時候這個部分怎麼樣來做更多的強化這次在修法裡面我們有納入特別是這些棄養過去在棄養的定義並不明確然後這次在修法裡面我們把棄養的定義做得很明確你必須經過到動物收容裡面去做登記以後才能去處理不能隨意你如果沒有到動物的"},{"start":10461.68,"end":10489.944,"text":"收容所去做登記去做一些認養的關係的時候那就視為棄養我也希望這一塊要把它更確立起來因為每一個你要飼養其實都是一個責任它是都是一個生命都是一個責任那你不能夠要的時候養但是不要說用整個這樣丟棄甚至於造成很多問題像動輒路邊的一些流浪狗、流浪貓甚至連濾烈蜥都是所以這個會造成很多的一些問題這應該要更加的去強化跟重視"},{"start":10490.864,"end":10507.181,"text":"對 飼主的責任我想我們在這次動法法修法也變成一個重點好 那另外其實很多的登記跟絕育的管理這也很重要啦既然就是你要飼養應該有更多的登記的機制讓大家知道到底在哪邊然後牠的整個狀況是怎樣這也是確保這些牠們的權益然後這些寵物這些動物們的權益"},{"start":10511.505,"end":10537.585,"text":"對 謝委員因為關心這個寵物登記因為只有登記落實的時候才能夠去掌握這些犬隻的這些數量也才能夠根據這個去落實我們的事主責任所以這個部分是最基本要做的我想我們在這一次的修法裡面也會納進來然後我們現在已經在做了像貓的飼養貓的那個登記我們用強制的明年1月1號開始明年1月1號開始來強制登記"},{"start":10539.366,"end":10551.286,"text":"好那另外還有很多的是為繁殖買賣的啦齁這個甚至於很多是是非缺乏一些規範的這個恐怕未來也要持續來那個齁不要讓這些"},{"start":10554.059,"end":10581,"text":"這個繁殖買賣甚至於非法的一些不斷的擴大因為這個都會影響到整個這個也是委員一直關心的這個的前提就是說我要落實我們的事主的分級的管理這個也是委員一直常說的你在分級管理的時候針對這些禁止飼養的或是必須特殊情況飼養的部分我們有規範的時候我們才能夠回頭要求我們的這些繁殖場做更有效的一個管理所以這個也會把它進入數碼建立型我覺得這個都"},{"start":10583.061,"end":10599.236,"text":"都是那個那再來我們也常看到很多啦一些社群平台有很多虐待動物的資訊的發布啦這個很傷害台灣的形象也很傷害整個這個部分有沒有什麼樣一些機制來做處理這個部分在現在目前的機制就可以在做了就是我們隨時針對"},{"start":10601.238,"end":10623.646,"text":"我們的這些網站的這些販賣動物的訊息或是有任何的有可能產生虐待動物的情況的之下我們都會去報案像前幾天我們針對有一些非法的我們也去報案我在上禮拜還是有在看到類似像這樣的影片在傳對好不好那但是你們去要求的時候他下架同時做開罰這個有做得到嗎"},{"start":10625.936,"end":10655.118,"text":"我想我們現在跟網站網路的經營業者有一個比較好的默契就是說所以一旦有這些的影片出來的時候你們要求他下架下架用下架的方式現在目前他們都大部分都能夠配合啦經過說明以後都能夠配合那如果適度必須要開罰的時候我想開罰也要開罰必要開罰我們就會因為這個開罰才會涉及到相關的公權利益的行使再來是寵物的食品安全也很重要啦他會影響到寵物的整個整個他的安全"},{"start":10655.598,"end":10662.306,"text":"那抱怨了嗎我上次跟在委員會也報告就是我們會在5月底抱怨然後現在在內部已經審查完成了然後在這個禮拜這個禮拜是經過我們的部裡面的主管匯報通過以後我們就送院了我們希望讓這些寵物他們的食品有更好的一些規範"},{"start":10674.299,"end":10701.25,"text":"也更安全的食品這個能夠把這件事情做得一個更好現在寵物很多人視為也形容像他們的家人一樣那你有更清楚的食品規範的時候才能夠讓他們是更健康更快樂的一個生活這個也是委員一直在關心的我們會從生產端然後料園這邊要確保它的料園的安全性對寵物是安全的還有包括它的販賣業者的管理都全部在寵物食品專章裡面去處理好"},{"start":10701.75,"end":10725.564,"text":"最後一個問一下現在網路上還是有在販售一些活體的動物跟寵物現在上很多一些網站還是買得到這個部分有要追究這些平台的責任嗎這個齁如果你在網路上販售這樣子的一個寵物的話你必須要有許可證你必須在網路上面要登記你的許可證字號如果沒有的話就是非法"},{"start":10726.064,"end":10748.282,"text":"那非法的話第一個我們會要求下架第二個部分我們會針對它的一個網路的來源刊登的來源去做處罰部長現在還有啦我希望技術去要求下架同時間技術來做開罰好不好唯有開罰才能夠嚇阻這樣的行為的發生在網路上面非法的販售活體的寵物是大家無法忍受的好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝"},{"start":10753.223,"end":10769.011,"text":"好謝謝賴瑞榮委員那下一位請邱志維委員質詢好謝謝主席我請呃是不是請陳部長陳部長"},{"start":10776.488,"end":10792.763,"text":"部長,第一個問題請教你,就是台日農業交流,應該是農漁業交流,台日,我們4月28號住宿代表的時候,農業組正式成立,我們在其他住宿有沒有農業組相關的編制?在美國有,"},{"start":10797.327,"end":10814.609,"text":"歐盟歐盟有對我們只有三個主要管處嘛最主要就是我們的外銷最主要跟農業多產品外銷有關的歐盟是派出一位然後這個北美一位對不對兩位北美兩位那歐盟一位歐盟也是兩位歐盟兩位然後日本也是兩位"},{"start":10816.063,"end":10842.881,"text":"這個我覺得農業跟經濟一樣重要所以我們經濟組在主要管理處都有經濟組的同仁跟我們推廣或者協助農業的交流那我們現在對美國的關稅政策對農業當然有很多影響我們必須分散市場分散市場你要拓展我們出口市場所以出口多元化很重要那你東協也要考慮設立"},{"start":10845.069,"end":10865.389,"text":"我們東協目前在印尼的部分有派我們的農業部的同仁在那邊去做協助然後最主要的外銷都是由國際私形成相關的策略以後因為你有這個派出人員你會制定工作目標你針對工作時間請你們做管轄"},{"start":10866.75,"end":10890.83,"text":"所以就像經濟組一樣不管是農業組同仁或經濟組同仁他也是歸經濟委員會來做監督考核所以我覺得這部分台日當然已經早就該成立了那你今天上個月成立那南韓跟台日的農業跟台韓的農業我覺得台日農業交流是比台農業交流好很多為什麼韓國南韓沒辦法做"},{"start":10893.7,"end":10916.83,"text":"南韓我應該在去年吧去年年底的時候我有去過一次南韓那邊的這些寵物的飼料本身還有一些相關的我們的漁產品也有相關的外銷所以我們要看它的貿易量到某個程度的時候是不是值得我農業產品南韓是第幾大的出口市場南韓應該第幾"},{"start":10919.194,"end":10943.716,"text":"應該是排行十以後的吧趕快地緣經濟啊你不喜歡農漁產品出口第三大市場對不對那這個但是這樣還不夠是在我國日本對台這個進口的57%左右所以不只台日的這個農業交流有必要深化廣化"},{"start":10945.177,"end":10950.484,"text":"那另外 台南之間我覺得也應該要加把勁你要擬定對策啊"},{"start":10952.113,"end":10976.91,"text":"這個部長謝謝委員我想我們會來啟動正式的一個評估包括我們未來可能要去銷到韓國的農產品然後用什麼樣的方式跟外館那邊有沒有什麼樣的方式去派駐人員因為這個人員大概都是從我們縣市人員去調的是啦是啦你要針對主要的國家韓國啦東協你說印尼你就應該在那邊設個農業組是我想人員不是問題專業不是問題但你有編制你就會有成果對"},{"start":10981.793,"end":10998.477,"text":"另外我針對高雄石斑魚對內出口我們組成一個拓銷小組鼓勵各位龍虎班可以消往日本那我希望以南部為主的東高雄 台南 屏東這個石斑魚的產區對日本的這個出口應該要擴大"},{"start":11001.878,"end":11021.307,"text":"所以通路很重要,通路沒合作,日本主要的商社,不管是以縣為主,以區域為主,應該要請我們住宿代表處的各個分處,福岡、福岡辦事處、大阪、甚至北海道、雜訪,應該要給他們相關的責任。"},{"start":11024.628,"end":11049.227,"text":"去協助我們這個龍虎班、石班能夠在當地透過通路來打開我們的這個外銷我跟委員報告因為這次去年去的時候我特別針對那個石班類的部分他們評估就是在關東地區其實他的機會會比關西地區還多然後現在透過我們的西湖鐵道公司"},{"start":11049.987,"end":11060.893,"text":"為什麼關東 現在是關係為主嘛飲食習慣 最主要是飲食習慣對 我們現在是嚮往關係嘛對 那關東是更大的一個機會更能夠接受嘛對我們太太是說都沒差"},{"start":11063.642,"end":11090.9,"text":"日本人不管是關西 都要吃酒半夜所以我想我們會有一整套的一個措施特別是針對剛才您講的通路是非常重要的然後現在我們在西鐵鐵道公司這些中餐的部分已經導入了署長很專業署長這個海洋事務專家我希望說半年之內有具體的成果你把這個量 把這個量"},{"start":11092.461,"end":11106.62,"text":"能夠擴大量也放大然後點也能夠遍及到全日本是 耿委員耿委員報告就是目前在18年以蘇日裡面價錢還是稍微有一點就是有點高那這一點"},{"start":11107.922,"end":11127.852,"text":"那署裡面跟在部長的指導之下我們其實現在對於輸往日本的部分這種外銷獎勵的部分我們現在都會持續來推動那剛剛委員提到說日本各縣的這些的商社我想我們也都會來努力最後一個問題就是你們農保虧損的狀況"},{"start":11130.053,"end":11151.523,"text":"農保啊我們這個有預算凍結是針對農保部分我希望農保這個未來改善有沒有具體的目標現在我們的虧損大概是1800多億那最主要是農保的保費有沒有保費是比較低嘛那你一年之內你要達到多少目標"},{"start":11152.623,"end":11173.709,"text":"我們每一年我把詳細的是不是可以請我們去年報告委員我們農保每年虧損大概50億上下那現在就是因為整個農保的人數越來越降低所以我這個虧損會縮短那之所以現在來了50億的這樣的一個水準是因為"},{"start":11174.429,"end":11196.099,"text":"我們之前調高了農保的商帳幾戶現在農保的支出最主要都是在商帳幾戶大概90到95%之間所以未來農保的人數下降之後這一部分的虧損會減少那我們也積極在做相關的查查的工作需要能夠讓農保制度健全"},{"start":11197.507,"end":11218.353,"text":"財政平衡很重要 對農民的照顧也很重要所以這個部分 這兩個目標都要兼顧了那另外這個農業保險你們覆蓋率那我了解目前大概53點多對 農業保險那你們有沒有具體的目標譬如說 我覺得多少目標是合理的 是你們預期達成的我也剛剛問他們貝霞"},{"start":11220.013,"end":11243.856,"text":"我跟委員報告我之前跟我們的農經署在討論過去充量不看品質那每一張保單可能有人保但是保的不多我現在希望說回過頭來去檢討我們的保單的品質希望每一張保單有很多人保這樣的話保險的理賠也不會那麼高錢總很重要"},{"start":11244.577,"end":11269.793,"text":"然後對重要的農產品這個很重要所以農運受極端氣候影響的受市場調節影響的所以風險比較高的這些農運產品我覺得這個覆蓋率一定要最高對 這個覆蓋率最高就是每一張保單大部分的品項都已經納入了天然災害有關的但是現在就是每一張保單它的保單人數這不簡單 這幾年之內農業保險覆蓋率可以提升到五成以上這個也算不簡單"},{"start":11270.754,"end":11286.94,"text":"那我希望說針對主要的這個重要的農運產品它的覆蓋率應該會更高啦好 我們會來努力好 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝各位同仁 謝謝好 謝謝邱志維委員我們也要拜託邱委員來幫我代理一下"},{"start":11299.012,"end":11313.236,"text":"謝謝 下面質詢請蔡議員好 謝謝主席那我們是不是有請這個農業部部長請農業部陳部長"},{"start":11323.267,"end":11340.521,"text":"部長好,部長今天的解凍案中其中有一案是關於嘉義的茶改廠的興建,那我想要請教一下說,未來我們解凍案之後,以及柴桿產的興建的進度,那是不是可以說明一下?"},{"start":11342.309,"end":11365.903,"text":"謝謝委員我們當初的茶開場本身我們是用雙種廠制就是在原來的種廠跟嘉義這邊那你也知道在過程中有一些曲折就是包括選地的時候可能土壤的地質不適合種茶所以我們做了一些調整那現在我們把相關的計畫已經報院了那院裡面他覺得現在的"},{"start":11367.13,"end":11392.258,"text":"要蓋一個總廠它的經費的問題啦所以我準備今天下午今天會議完了以後我會再召開一個專案會議去確認說今天下午我會召開專案會議去確定我們所有的要下一步要怎麼走的這些包括預算包括相關的這些規劃然後再去提出更好的說明跟讓行政院同意那相關的會議如果討論完了以後我第一時間會讓這個訊息給跟委員報告"},{"start":11395.239,"end":11408.511,"text":"好我想部長因為就雙種廠所以事實上他們走的方向也不一樣那我們嘉義這邊除了茶之外甚至我們把咖啡的部分飲料的部分對飲料咖啡也變成這個未來這一個嘉義的廠主要的一個"},{"start":11413.135,"end":11426.373,"text":"一個研究的一個範圍所以方向不同但是我們也知道說阿里山的茶阿里山的咖啡這幾年事實上整個它的品牌都打出來所以我們需要更強而有力政府的背書讓它的這個品牌價值可以更高這個我想部長這個從這樣來"},{"start":11430.839,"end":11459.529,"text":"我想非常認同 特別是阿里山的茶葉其實越來越讓國外的人知道了他的一些茶的品質也好 他的風味也好然後再加上他茶跟其他的飲料做調和包括咖啡有沒有這些部分都值得在嘉義變成一個雙種場的概念所以我們是朝這個目標只是說因為經費的關係我們看可不可以調整一些現在的規模然後來符合我們行政院的要求這個部分我想我們會來努力"},{"start":11459.949,"end":11478.424,"text":"好我想就積極溝通喔如果現在就是說跟行政院最後的意見交換那我想我們就趕快來處理然後看行政院這邊的意見怎樣然後大家趕快來做一個最後的一個核定好不好好我們會來努力第二個問題就是說我們嘉義阿里山"},{"start":11480.158,"end":11495.308,"text":"最近這幾年我們本來就是特產叫高足叫歌順這個叫高足他現在就因為染病他這個病叫作醜業病"},{"start":11498.029,"end":11516.498,"text":"這因為染了這個細菌,然後整個阿里山的山區,這個竹筍就大量的死亡而且這個死亡,就是說他這個破壁後,這個竹子算沒哪裡沒哪裡,等於說他就發不出來,所以未來可以想像的就是這裡的竹林"},{"start":11517.358,"end":11526.542,"text":"全軍覆沒了,而且一旦染病之後又不可逆他連土壤都被感染了,所以未來這順也發出來,也是定義賣大漢、賣大漢賣,定義都溫馨啦,不會讓他硬起來所以看起來,這個教高層的狀況,這個可以說"},{"start":11541.208,"end":11567.218,"text":"是屬於這裡產業的一個天災那我想要請教部長那你們現在要怎麼有什麼方向來來做這個後續的處理我跟委員報告那個教高族本身的染病那基本上我們判斷是可能跟逐年的老化沒有及時的更新有關那雖然說我們已經有做一些用藥的指導可是相對的就像委員剛才說的他可能會整片的部分"},{"start":11567.698,"end":11579.525,"text":"所以其實最有效的話是整片去做竹林的更新或者是你竹林砍伐以後去照領我們有新的獎勵照領6年6年就可以領到應該60萬吧55到60萬或者是竹林更新我們也會有獎勵從明年開始"},{"start":11587.895,"end":11604.03,"text":"部長我只是要說這個事實上這個孫子他可能高生都沒有了全剩一生事實上你要做竹林的更新竹林的更新他可能這個病沒有徹底根據"},{"start":11605.462,"end":11622.613,"text":"跟絕錢他可能會再發對所以你看起來竹林更新這件事情是一個問號是所以現在地方又有在講說我們不然就走向照林對那照林出來咧阿爹夫婉意配合官吏未來這個整個林場會很漂亮喔對"},{"start":11623.633,"end":11643.328,"text":"而且造林也可以創造了我們現在大家在講淨林碳排然後要有所謂的森林碳會那就是森林碳會最好的地方但是問題來了如果我們以6年我們說55萬到60萬這樣的金額事實上對地方現在的竹農吸引力不夠"},{"start":11645.822,"end":11661.329,"text":"這個變成是因應不夠你要思考喔一般來這個是一個經濟作物喔他們是有很好的收入的喔結果你現在要把他轉向說好你們走向造林以後你們就去管理這個林場結果他自己的生計會產生問題"},{"start":11662.89,"end":11687.438,"text":"所以我覺得部長要去思考一下我們既然要讓他們來走向造林走向不一樣的一個森林的管理但是這樣的一個補助沒有誘因的話要怎麼讓這一些竹農維持生計呢第一個就是說我們現在的造林獎勵六年從原來的20年60萬到變成六年60萬那個時間縮短了第二個部分就是他六年完成以後還會有持續的撫育的經費"},{"start":11689.119,"end":11706.362,"text":"還有一個非常重要的就是它有它的碳匯的價值然後這個部分我想我們會來協助我們轉噪鈴的部分透過ESG也好或其他的方式也好去取得這些碳匯的這些金額那這樣的話無形中也會增加它的一些收入"},{"start":11707.54,"end":11724.041,"text":"就是這個碳會 但是這個碳會價值還要經環境部的一個一個方法學的一個方法學嘛對 但是我們會來協助人民對 但是這個碳會部分就是這樣啦它都必須要屬於企業合作社才會取得但是我剛剛在講的是個人啊"},{"start":11724.862,"end":11747.664,"text":"事實上讓他們 讓這些主農下去管理這個碳匯到底會回到個人 那個人怎麼去使用這個碳匯這個還是有這個運作上的困難我想我們林保署會去做媒合 特別是個體戶的部分怎麼樣去連了許多的個體戶變成一個比較大的量能的時候再去跟企業做對接 這個部分我想林保署一直在做這樣的協助"},{"start":11748.985,"end":11766.69,"text":"好 沒關係 我覺得這兩個問題都很要緊的啦從他開產 從我們這個較高族的這樣的一個森林的場域未來要走向造林也是要兼顧這裡竹農他們未來的生計我想這個農業部可能在我們會放在心裡好 那再麻煩 謝謝謝謝蔡議員 部長請回座"},{"start":11787.009,"end":11801.566,"text":"來下一位請郭育晴郭委員不浪費大家的時間好謝謝主席有請部長"},{"start":11811.031,"end":11828.236,"text":"每次來這邊應該就知道我要問跟動保相關的一些問題了部長知道這個基隆市的動物中所理性管理員涉及所謂的虐待動物的事件嗎這我有聽說過您認為是個案還是還是制度上出了問題"},{"start":11829.708,"end":11855.439,"text":"我覺得以這個案子看起來是個案他們後續的調查不過我想整體的一個收容所的一個管理它是一個系統性的問題這個必須要去做徹底的據我所知道因為時間關係我就不一一點明說明因為其實近三年至少有六起跟公立收容所這個人員涉及不當對待有關係但是都沒有一件被所謂的這個移送"},{"start":11856.26,"end":11870.235,"text":"那只有這個內部的部分來做這個調職了事啦那我就想要問這公立的收容所當中有多少人是經過所謂的動物行為福利的訓練還有另外就是主管機關是不是有針對所謂的調查的一個標準來就是懲處"},{"start":11874.6,"end":11900.591,"text":"的一個流程那另外呢還是這個部分是交由地方政府各自為政呢還是說我們民眾又應該要如何能夠知道公立收容所當中的一個現況我們是可以透過什麼樣的一個長期的觀察或者是志工長期的進駐成為第三方的這個監督我覺得這個三個這個問題我請部長回答我一下我想細節部我先請那個我們董事長回答我再來回答"},{"start":11901.755,"end":11930.403,"text":"那個報告委員有關於現在各地的一個收容所那我們一向以來的立場就是要資訊要能夠透明所以我們現在所有的縣市政府的那個每個月的那個收容的一些動態的資料我們都放到我們的動物保護網上那第二個部分就是有關於收容人員的部分我們非常務實的講收容人員的部分目前來講都是各地方自行聆聘跟訓練那這一個部分我們也會要求相關的一些專業的一個要求"},{"start":11931.483,"end":11947.95,"text":"那我想以這個基隆市的這個公立收容所為例這位李姓德這個管理員他除了他是自己本身是不愛動物的啦然後他因為擔心這些被收容的一些動物因為現在是零安樂他就覺得要處理他們的大小片是麻煩的"},{"start":11948.53,"end":11967.557,"text":"所以甚至沒有長期不給這些動物吃東西然後還用那個強力的水柱來噴地上甚至噴在狗狗的身上這個其實是非常非常嚴重的一個虐待的行為那據我們知道之後其實我也有向這個基隆的公立收容所我們來做這個"},{"start":11969.558,"end":11984.652,"text":"來做洽詢喔那他是說這位理性的這個管理員已經被調離現職但問題是調離現職之後我接下來就想要問了到底我們平常的收容所裡頭是怎麼樣去篩選這些所謂的管理員"},{"start":11985.453,"end":11998.383,"text":"有什麼樣的一個資格那到底一個不適任的一個人員為什麼他可以負責來照顧這些被收容的動物這是我非常大的一個質疑還有他涉及虐待動物的部分我們事後應該要怎麼樣來做懲處是不是應該要來追究"},{"start":12000.504,"end":12023.751,"text":"我想跟委員報告我覺得委員提到一個非常重要的就是當一個收容所收容了動物反而變成一個戀愛動物的場所那是絕對不對的那這個是牽到收容管理的人員的基本的訓練跟他的信念所以我覺得以現在來講收容人員的就是就是聘任並沒有一定的"},{"start":12024.731,"end":12038.809,"text":"相關的這些職能的一個訓練或是標準所以我覺得後續一定要去朝這方面就是說你的收容人員你要聘任這些收容人員你必須要有一些基本的這些這些條件這不是只有考慮這個問題去檢討這個問題然後就"},{"start":12041.633,"end":12069.199,"text":"沒有 然後後續因為後續我們要怎麼樣來建立這些制度然後讓地方政府的這個公立的收容所真的能夠依照這個制度來進行它對於所謂的動物的一個照顧跟管理因為這些動物其實關在裡頭它更容易被虐待但問題是對於這個人員管理員的沒有任何的篩選跟沒有任何的懲處只是掉離限制而已這個答案其實我沒有辦法接受我覺得也不適合只有掉離限制但是相對的以現在的規範來講我們會更去強化"},{"start":12071.46,"end":12093.557,"text":"後續的管理的時候的一個SOP我舉個例子就像我們到一些比較大的超商的賣場的廁所一樣他都有相關的規範然後怎麼樣去處理我們在收容的場所裡面我們如果導入這個制度他必須要用什麼樣的方式所以現在是沒有導入這個制度嗎現在是沒有那這個管理的辦法什麼時候可以盡快的出來可以"},{"start":12094.197,"end":12117.65,"text":"我們六月底之前也是六月底我想六月底我們把這個新的規範全部弄過一次包括檢核的清單檢核的checklist這樣的話第一個收容人員的訓練第一個要做他的篩選要做篩選可能比較慢一點但是在職的訓練可能馬上啟動第二個部分就是管理的SOP管理的checklist一定要落實六月對 六月底"},{"start":12118.13,"end":12142.618,"text":"6月底出來那我們之後要怎麼樣去審核地方政府他們的公立收入有沒有依照這個我們也有一個審核的機制嗎對我想他們每一次的這些檢核表應該有一個上傳的機制然後我們去檢查他們不同限制可能強度會不一樣然後我們針對執行比較差的我們會列入加強的一個查核然後也會實際的積查對實際的查核一定要的好那我們期待6月"},{"start":12145.219,"end":12168.894,"text":"那如果那個訊息能夠早一點出來再麻煩給我們辦公室我們先把這個確立時任業動議再請委員來指正好 謝謝 謝謝部長謝謝主席好 謝謝郭益勤 郭委員那下一位請徐欣穎委員 徐欣穎委員 徐欣穎委員不在請林楚英委員 林楚英委員 林楚英委員不在好 下一位請陳冠廷委員諮詢"},{"start":12176.144,"end":12176.927,"text":"主席我們請部長來請部長"},{"start":12185.876,"end":12206.136,"text":"部長好部長應該知道說最近我們阿里山地區九國順九國順大規模枯死這個問題那目前我們得到的資訊是海拔一千公尺以上的竹林死亡率已經超過八成這是一個非常嚴重的狀況那嚴重影響七八成依靠竹鼠維生的這些居民"},{"start":12206.716,"end":12222.302,"text":"那這個破戒的問題就是大量的枯死他們的竹子因為地形因為很陡峭嘛有些時候是那個沒有辦法清理那第一個就有可能會成為火災的隱患那農民有反應說地形陡峭繼續沒有辦法進入"},{"start":12223.843,"end":12236.137,"text":"花費的時間跟這個金錢太多所以部長如果沒有辦法處理這些枯死的竹林那有沒有什麼其他的具體的等級應對比方說怎麼樣去優先處理高火災的風險區域"},{"start":12238.52,"end":12256.252,"text":"第一個部分現在那個主本身他評估起來是因為老化的關係沒有更新的部分所以後續我想如果他值得去做更新不會因為土壤的一些病害的影響我們會去更新"},{"start":12268.58,"end":12284.635,"text":"那照林的部分後面也會連結到一些探泉的部分我們會來協助好那剛才部長有注意到這個問題我覺得很好那但是我覺得這種陡峭的地形是不是貴部有沒有可能計畫引進力士輕型集採所到或者是單軌搬運機"},{"start":12286.897,"end":12304.173,"text":"我想我們可能會來我會請林保署評估那個那邊的地形然後如果需要一些輕型的機械的話也許用共同使用的方式而不是說每一戶都來申請共同使用的方式然後來看看有哪一個合作社或是用什麼方式來申請"},{"start":12305.514,"end":12316.383,"text":"那這個時候我們再來協助我們真的朝這個方向來做朝這個方向再麻煩你了你剛剛有提到說這一個富裕還有生計上面的支持部長你剛剛提到每公頃20年大概55到60萬那是不是剛剛說這些還變成6年變成6年"},{"start":12322.168,"end":12339.699,"text":"6年55到60抱歉從20年變成6年所以這是一個進步我想說有沒有可能就是說現有的這個獎勵造型政策我們第一個在經濟在增加這是第一個那第二個就是說我們最新的有沒有選譽的最新進展"},{"start":12341.522,"end":12358.629,"text":"所謂選育是樹種的部分樹種部分其實我們林市所一直在做相關的這些評估然後現在也非常多的造林的樹種他都已經有公布在相關的資訊不同的地區不同的地形也有不同的樹種"},{"start":12359.989,"end":12384.82,"text":"謝謝謝謝部長那部長我特別提到你剛剛提到合作社那其實合作社提供給他們這個我剛才提到的這種引進的這種搬運機也好或者是從這個竹林的這個搬運還有說未來的移動式碳化爐或破碎機那這些購置這些東西把它轉化成有價值的部分也請部長如果有機會盡量的替我們當地的這一些民眾來去爭取"},{"start":12385.72,"end":12410.515,"text":"那加多加高 那讓我們這個 畢竟他也是我們阿里山的一個原始的這個育種啦 那能夠協助他們 不然真的是這個狀況確實是蠻嚴重的 好不好謝謝委員的提醒 謝謝部長好 謝謝冠廷委員那我們先宣告延長開會時間 到我們今天的所有議程都處理完畢好 下一位請張雅玲委員質詢"},{"start":12420.148,"end":12420.73,"text":"好 我們有請部長 謝謝請部長"},{"start":12429.168,"end":12454.306,"text":"大家好相信部長也知道我要問什麼啦主要是野保的問題就是說目前我們在114年的遊蕩犬的管理進進措施計畫有看到就是說農業部有提供國際文獻支持就是說希望今年我們可以依循這個國際的文獻來落實我們3比7的公母犬的一個結紮比例那我想問一下就是說"},{"start":12455.487,"end":12477.543,"text":"我們有這個科學數據齁但是到底如何落實嘛因為現場我們一定是看到就抓來 看到就抓來嘛我們如何去做到落實這個真的可以達到3比7這件事情我想第一個就是說基本上從科學證據來講就是說你母犬絕育效果會比較好可是我實際在抓的時候我不可能說"},{"start":12478.664,"end":12504.4,"text":"抓三隻公的抓七隻母的不可能就是有直接去處理但是有一個重點就是說我們如果完全不處理大概五年會翻倍所以我的問題是說你要如何去因為我們一定是抓到不可能說只有抓到母的才處理對不對你一定就是抓來就處理那你事實上你如何去達到這個比例3比7呢你會怎麼做呢"},{"start":12505.06,"end":12531.29,"text":"或是你市會會再做什麼事情去確認你這樣子的抓法我想過往我們缺乏一個資料就是絕育以後到底是公選母選並沒有做有效的調查所以我們後續特別是請動保師這邊再處理就是未來的絕育一定要去把基礎資料先建立起來看看我們抓的部分到底是什麼樣的一個比例然後未來的回治或者是在收容在認養的部分"},{"start":12531.75,"end":12546.888,"text":"後續也可以針對這樣的一個比例去做一個相關的處理我想確定一下所以說我們現在沒有資料對不對我們現在是不知道的所以我們現在要建立基礎資料大概要花多久的時間呢要陸續做我們現在應該就我們就可以要求地方政府做記錄"},{"start":12547.429,"end":12574.577,"text":"我想鄧博士回應就是說可能在立即我們就會叫地方政府針對現在第一個收容所裡面的已經收容所裡面的公母的比例然後未來抓的部分有一個平台可以去登錄然後開始就是開始去執行這樣的一個情況好啊那我想因為這個詳細的規劃我今天很時間不夠那是不是可以請一個月以內提到我辦公室讓我知道具體的時程以及你們會如何的去做這件事情好不好那再來就是說"},{"start":12577.315,"end":12591.673,"text":"我們目前的一個生態樂區的計畫我們其實是包裹在遊蕩犬的管理經濟措施計畫當中那目前我收到的回覆是說我們沒有要針對生態樂區推動一個法制化的規劃"},{"start":12592.614,"end":12613.385,"text":"但是我今天還是希望來爭取他成為一個法治化因為接下來才化法的一個衝擊不知道會不會影響到這個專案那如果我們沒有把法治化的話地方政府可能就不會覺得這件事情他必須要來做這是第一個第二個就是說現在呢樂區並不是一個法治一個"},{"start":12614.025,"end":12640.569,"text":"法律名詞啦現在我們在這地方執行的就是說我們抓的處罰只能是依反依據這個廢清法第27條就是它有沒有造成區域的髒亂等等可是事實上呢它如果今天是乾淨餵食你是不是就不能抓可是我們今天講的就是生態樂區禁止餵食嘛所以我還是希望來爭取部長的支持我們是不是可以把它法治化呢"},{"start":12641.575,"end":12654.986,"text":"我跟他們討論過就是生態熱區他本身是根據過往的這些抓捕的這些數量調查的數量他不像說自然保護區有一個很明確的範圍所以如果把生態熱區能夠做一些"},{"start":12656.112,"end":12679.176,"text":"界定的時候就有機會入法啦但是他們這個部分現在他們還在討論但是我有一個要求就是為了這些流浪犬還有一些這些跟食物特定樂區的所有的農菜計畫因為農菜計畫是我們很紮根的很多社區的計畫我都要求加一個共同項目做動物的保護過去是沒有的"},{"start":12680.574,"end":12687.61,"text":"動物的保護 這個可能要界定清楚動物的保護是包括這些流浪犬本身的一些"},{"start":12689.557,"end":12709.758,"text":"但是遊蕩犬現在就是在生態樂區跟野生動物有一些相關的衝突所以這個動物保護到底值得是什麼樣子的保護是針對遊蕩犬本身就是有一些在社區裡面嘛過往的社區完全不處理這個我現在是每一個農寨計畫都變成一個共通的項目你要在那裡面去做所謂的"},{"start":12710.919,"end":12731.18,"text":"我們講細的就是有蕩犬本身的這些包括你的餵養的部分的一個茶葉不正常餵養的部分你都要去處理還有家犬的這些輸種的部分我們都要去處理這樣的話透過農在社區比較基本面去處理的時候應該可以cover一些主要我們認定的生態樂區"},{"start":12732.657,"end":12758.712,"text":"但是我覺得這點還有一個很大的問題耶就是說我們今天生態熱區禁止餵食這件事情禁止餵食現在是沒有辦法沒有法沒有法可以去處罰嘛對不對你剛剛講的就是說我怎麼去控制這個數量可是它餵食還是沒有沒有任何的刑罰這個部分的話如果要把它法制化的困難到底是什麼就剛剛講的是界定嘛對不對還是說這個署長要來說明一下嗎還是你幫他說明"},{"start":12762.739,"end":12780.812,"text":"好 跟委員報告 所謂的生態熱區我們就以食物跟草消來講絕大部分應該都是私有土地那甚至可能是農地所以你如果說要去特別去礦縣它會像一個類保護區一樣我想這在食物上是有困難的對因為地主什麼都會有很大的疑慮"},{"start":12781.914,"end":12795.915,"text":"對 那我們如何可能還是從剛剛部長所講的包含從社區或是包含從現有的這個遊蕩犬貓的這個管制的這個計畫還有包含加強限制餵食這方面應該會更快速一點"},{"start":12797.914,"end":12812.728,"text":"我們剛才委員特別提到就是說禁止餵食其實我們曾經想要把它納入法裡面去但是很多所謂的也是動保團體他們覺得說這些流浪犬就是有些人覺得說你不餵他他就會餓死"},{"start":12814.509,"end":12834.137,"text":"所以也強力的反對我們把禁止餵食很強制的拿掉所以這個部分我想還是必須持續去做溝通不過我想透過農在社區去做巡視把這些最主要的餵食點去做有效的宣導那可能比較容易達成那我們會有一些相關的KPI嗎"},{"start":12837.223,"end":12851.109,"text":"就是針對於說因為我們希望可以去減少他們餵食我們有一些相關的KPI去制定不然我們怎麼知道我們做的這個計畫到底有沒有成效我想這個部分我應該是只有在上個禮拜上禮拜我"},{"start":12851.849,"end":12871.476,"text":"也是委員會動保法執行的時候我回去我討論就是龍寨社區裡面就會列KPI就是每個社區根據他的範圍然後針對那裡面的犬隻他也要協助做調查那針對這個飼主的責任還有一些不當的餵養我們都會有一些調查基礎數據調查以後就會有後面的KPI出來"},{"start":12872.136,"end":12900.287,"text":"好那我最後再強調一點就是說因為其實我們一直在強調就是說今天其實大家都知道嘛遊蕩犬的數量非常非常非常之多那我今天是來不及問有關於收容空間的問題但是我覺得還是要強調一點就是我們從源頭管理嘛一直不停的因為農業部其實也一直不停的講源頭管理是主責任但我知道在3月的時候呢農業部已經把相關過去只要你餵養我們可能就會到時候這個出事了嘛對不對這遊蕩犬如果攻擊人造成人"},{"start":12901.247,"end":12925.726,"text":"或是農作物的一些損傷的時候法院的判例其實是會去追究這個餵養者的責任嘛對不對我們已經把這些判例整理起來提供給地方政府了但是呢我認為今天我們如果要強調四組責任農業部應該要做出更多的宣傳讓大家知道這件事情而不是只有交給地方政府去做可能很消極的溝通"},{"start":12926.887,"end":12946.027,"text":"這個部分農業部可不可以做呢我想可以我們在農糧類的話經常開說明會嘛那動保師人力雖然比較少但是我會要求包括我們的試驗單位也共同來做這樣的宣導這樣的話才有它的效果我想我們是不是因為農業部的小編的社群是不是也可以成為一個溝通的平台"},{"start":12946.487,"end":12970.114,"text":"我們應該要用所有的平台來溝通這件事情吧總不能說這個未養者未餵他也不知道他這樣其實在法律上面會負責任但他也很無辜嘛對不對所以我覺得我們應該要做到這件事情所以大概什麼時候我們可以提供給我一個詳細的宣傳計畫我們同樣六月底好不好因為六月底我們有很多包括我們的四組那個寄養的那些契約有沒有都會出來"},{"start":12970.754,"end":12981.196,"text":"那宣傳的一個溝通的計畫是不是可以先提供給我呢?大概你們會在哪些地方做這些溝通?5月底之前可以嗎?好不好?那你6月底再上架嗎?應該可以,5月底可以"},{"start":12984.443,"end":13008.246,"text":"好謝謝張雅玲委員那下一位是馬文君委員馬文君委員馬文君委員不在葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員不在呂玉玲委員呂玉玲委員呂玉玲委員不在好現在登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束那委員呂玉玲林黛華邱志偉所提書面記錄刊登公報"},{"start":13009.727,"end":13018.975,"text":"那其中林黛華委員所提書面質詢有5點請農業部詳實研究後予以合理的答覆那書面"},{"start":13021.232,"end":13049.029,"text":"書面質詢及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會那我們現在來處理114年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結等12案我們逐案開始處理好那現在是先處理第一案第一案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有異議"},{"start":13053.305,"end":13079.713,"text":"來 再請張經凱委員這筆預算是上次有經過草野協商本來我們是主張要減為10%的那後來討論了就是說給這個部長有一個時間去爭取再往那個本來立法院通過的是公糧收購每公斤調高五塊錢可是現在農業部做的只做了三分之一就是調高的每公斤1.83元那我們那時候就是"},{"start":13080.799,"end":13109.233,"text":"沒有沒有刪減預算可是希望爭取到時間讓這個農業部可以來做一些努力啦那我當然知道現在很多人都來講說這個案子不要再不要再一直動著動著可能會影響到農業部因為他是業務費啦可是所以我比較我們也很理性務實的就是看現在應該是已經開始在編列概算的狀況了嘛對不對今年度已經開始要要編列明年度要概算了那至少怎麼樣一個方向部長還有再去努力再去努力好不好"},{"start":13111.408,"end":13134.034,"text":"那個賴慧榮 下一位賴慧榮委員部長等一下再統一委部好 謝謝啦 謝謝昭偉 謝謝各位我想農業部的預算相當重要啦那當時很多的凍結也都影響到後續農業的一些運作啦所以我們還是希望不要今天能夠全數的解凍啦那至於剛剛講到"},{"start":13136.214,"end":13147.344,"text":"農糧那部分那其實是涉及到相當專業上的整體考量那是不是不要受到這個的影響我們還是希望能夠整體來請各位能夠支持整體主動一起來支持我們的農業部支持我們農業以上說明"},{"start":13149.346,"end":13169.62,"text":"好來那請部長來回覆謝謝委員剛才張綺凱委員特別提到就是說雖然說上個會期沒有應該是這個這個會期吧也有提到公糧要提高五塊錢這件事情那經過多次的我們的內部規劃其實我們現在提出來的糧食產業升級的方案裡面"},{"start":13170.2,"end":13184.433,"text":"那有三個重點第一個重點就是我們照顧的不只是稻農也照顧了非種稻的這些雜糧的業者那農業部看來是一個整體產業的發展那水稻的部分以這一期我們的一二三方案加糧食產業升級"},{"start":13185.854,"end":13210.409,"text":"很重要的就是工糧繳工糧的面積少了將近五千公頃表示說這個方案是接受到農民的一個支持那這個方案我們提了三應該是三年那我們希望說這個方案讓我們做那123方案的時候相對的在三年之後整個的價格可以提高五塊這是第一個我希望我也能夠支持第二個部分就是我們在"},{"start":13211.709,"end":13216.953,"text":"計劃跟輔導以單看這是過去農民一直在教的如果光看這兩個這兩項的話都是超過五塊錢的啦"},{"start":13221.158,"end":13246.592,"text":"第三個是現在南部在開的水稻它的價格是1050每百台金1050這個是已經達到我們當初的預期的效果當你種稻的面積鎖住了集團栽培變多了腳工糧變少的話那相對的它的市價的價格的支撐度是夠的我們希望說未來的種稻的人是因為你的品質的提升而"},{"start":13247.412,"end":13263.964,"text":"得到更高的收益啦這個是我想我們一直在努力的那也希望張委員能夠了解能夠支持讓我們這個計畫中了三年以後我們再看是不是能夠讓這個稻農真正的能夠達到我們期待的一個目標"},{"start":13265.506,"end":13282.96,"text":"好 那張委員可以我們肯定部長有在努力啦是啊一直朝向這個方向不過這三年老蔣真的太長了啦就是盡量因為現在已經變概算了嘛對不對你現在你剛剛講的就是說面積也有在減少所以花的錢老蔣就變少了更容易可以做得到了啦那你剛剛提三年要達到五塊錢真的"},{"start":13284.961,"end":13309.06,"text":"總委他部長的意思是說減少是因為民糧的價格高那如果公糧價格又上去自然那個民糧的部分就會又衝回到公糧所以就會增加沒有沒有 公糧如果提高的話自然種公糧的就會增加所以先提高了1.83那現在部長說慢慢慢慢那可能要3年才能夠達到我說盡快再 速度要加快一點"},{"start":13309.841,"end":13332.343,"text":"所以這個部分就是也容許有在這邊說明就是我們現在看起來那個平衡點是存在的以現在來講慢慢的拉然後集團栽培也多特別是公糧很多還是種稻但是他轉集團栽培然後把稻米變成優質米這是我們要的就是希望說越來越多的農民能夠用集團栽培做品牌米"},{"start":13333.184,"end":13348.193,"text":"那這個部分用現在的這個每公頃兩塊的公糧的價格的提高的部分讓他達到一個平衡這個平衡如果看了三年因為產業的發展不能只看一年一年或半年半年我們希望說看了特別是二期做會更多"},{"start":13348.814,"end":13364.056,"text":"二級座轉座雜糧的高鐵沿線種水稻的轉座雜糧應該會更多所以這個部分也期待讓委員能夠讓我們執行三年我們絕對不會說去辜負稻農一定會隨時去監管他的所得"},{"start":13365.672,"end":13383.613,"text":"其實現在很多的農民正在透過直播在看他們剛剛也提供了很多意見就是之前立法院過的就是一公斤五塊錢然後他們確實他們已經精算過就是現在一公斤就是1.83那他們也肯定部長你現在有一些努力沒有錯不過你現在只有三年慢慢要三年才能夠達到速度要再快一點點好不好"},{"start":13384.353,"end":13394.718,"text":"我們再來努力看看用什麼方式讓道路所得用其他的方式提高我們9月份就會在審明年度的預算嘛到時候我們會看你的努力成果是怎麼樣好不好"},{"start":13397.045,"end":13414.345,"text":"來請賴隊長委員我想部長很用心在這一塊稻米的政策跟公糧的政策上那我也比較請教建議是不是讓部長他整體的調整一下看怎麼樣那三年的時間但是這次的預算先給你解凍不要讓他影響到整個農業的政策跟整個農民的一些影響好不好拜託各位謝謝好"},{"start":13416.287,"end":13440.463,"text":"這個糧食政策的影響的層面對農民收益是很重要那我想部長一定會努力去做到最好這樣的話我們第一案就讓他通過好不好就讓他解凍好剛剛的保證喔 盡量3年以內還要再收短好不好那老蔣我們現在編概算就要去努力了啦老蔣9月份我們會看到你的預算書希望從預算上面有呈現好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":13442.568,"end":13464.248,"text":"好那第一案沒有意義就通過那我們現在第二案所列預算解凍案是否同意動之同意好都沒有意義的話通過第三案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有意義沒有沒有意義好那就通過第四案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有意義沒有"},{"start":13465.029,"end":13487.628,"text":"沒有異議的話通過第五案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有異議沒有好沒有異議通過第六案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有異議沒有好沒有異議通過第七案所列預算案同意動之請問委員有異議沒有無異議通過第八案所列預算案同意動之請問委員有異議沒有"},{"start":13488.989,"end":13514.508,"text":"主席我講一下我沒有異議 我當然心難同意而且這個書面包括準備非常詳細但我是認為特別是中南部水保署的預算跟執行非常重要不管是蔡宇宇 邱志偉 邱以銀還有陳廷飛 他們比較少"},{"start":13519.752,"end":13529.766,"text":"主要還是集中在我跟邱瑩所以這個部分我特別拜託部長跟署長這個非常重要農民的"},{"start":13532.008,"end":13557.427,"text":"他們在作業的安全然後他們運輸的安全我覺得一定要給他們最大的保障所以每一個案子我都親自去看過那我希望說我們在未來也針對農水署相關的預算也會全力支持那希望在執行面能夠協助我們中南部的農民給他們更多作業安全跟運輸安全的保障"},{"start":13559.196,"end":13582.869,"text":"謝謝委員提醒這個部分我們會盡力的來做啦好這個預算解凍以後我們有比較多的經費可以去處理來陳秦飛委員謝謝主席我想把所有的這個解凍其實這都有關地方的建設然後其實我們之前大家都去看過那麼我們都有一個重點就是說等解凍"},{"start":13583.789,"end":13600.919,"text":"所以我們希望說今天解凍之後速度要快因為這個都攸關地方的一個建設還有我們整個包括水保濃水這個都一定都是我們地方民眾所需要的所以我們希望是速度解凍完之後速度要快 謝謝"},{"start":13604.244,"end":13620.379,"text":"那沒有其他委員要發言的話我們第八案就照剛剛講的無異議通過好不好好第九案第九案跟我們加一直接相關所謂預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有無異議沒有沒有異議好請邱映委員"},{"start":13622.119,"end":13642.183,"text":"謝謝主席這個案子解凍我沒有異議但是我覺得這個房檢署的牽扯到剛剛本席的那個質詢的部分我是希望請部長能夠再持續為我們這個植物房檢的人員的這個福利再多所以我想我們會持續來努力好那沒有異議的話通過沒有意見"},{"start":13648.391,"end":13672.559,"text":"來 接下來是第10案 第10案是來 所列預算解凍案同意動之 請問委員有異議沒有沒有 沒有但是來 好 還是請你繼續發言我沒有意見 但是我要補充一下也請那個部長還是持續支持我們的減船的計畫好不好這個對於整個漁業的長遠發展有相當大的幫助的好 會好 謝謝好 那邱昀委員也要發言嗎"},{"start":13673.68,"end":13685.704,"text":"沒有齁沒有意義的發言沒有意義的發言沒有意義的發言沒有意義的發言沒有意義的發言沒有意義的發言沒有意義的發言沒有意義的發言沒有意義的發言沒有意義的發言"},{"start":13696.908,"end":13709.099,"text":"這個我沒解我是對11有好那第10案就沒有異議通過第11案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有異議沒有好沒有異議通過好那請邱志偉委員補充發言"},{"start":13711.249,"end":13732.975,"text":"農田水利署蔡署長我想她這個陸力重工她這個所有的以前我們是不是公法那時候這個農田水利處各單位各行其事那現在統合成公部門之後那要整合工作非常不容易各縣市各個分署"},{"start":13733.635,"end":13750.72,"text":"的狀況都不一樣但我覺得這點非常重要能不能因地制宜然後我想蔡組長可以掌握每一個分屬他們的概況那我所在地的這個高雄那我大概賴玉榮跟邱毅都很了解"},{"start":13751.4,"end":13774.829,"text":"所以這個部分一定是站在農民立場這個慣排的立場我也謝謝這個蔡組長能夠全力協助那如果有一些相關的案子有一些整合性的 包括我們跨區的我跟這個邱瑩瑩跨區的那我跟蕭若龍是沒有跨區的 她是太遠了我跟邱瑩瑩跨區的部分我們一起再來再請署長來協助"},{"start":13777.503,"end":13803.441,"text":"我想署長的服務態度應該大家有目共睹然後如果後區委員有什麼需要特別是跨區的一個處理的時候我想署長應該會親自會去來 請邱映委員那個 署長我有一個小提醒 小建議就是說你們的那個灌排如果遇到這個枯水期的時候或者是你們停灌的時候那個灌排的那個排水溝"},{"start":13804.401,"end":13825.375,"text":"是不是也能夠定期去做一些清淤跟清理的這樣的一個工作因為有非常多的農民或者是附近的居民在反映說你們停灌停水的時候其實那個會長蚊子而且會有惡臭那個部分是不是也能夠能夠協助一下一定會去加強特別在斷水期的時候去做清淤"},{"start":13831.124,"end":13849.482,"text":"那我們接下來再來處理第11案第11沒有第12案第12案第12案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有異議沒有好沒有異議的話通過那請邱議員沒有好謝謝委員"},{"start":13852.83,"end":13865.623,"text":"那我們現在做以下決議農業部及所屬預算凍結案第一案及第十二案均同意動之並領據報告提報院會好那我們接下來處理"},{"start":13868.392,"end":13882.34,"text":"繼續處理114年度中央政府總預算有關公平教育委員會主管預算凍結等兩案我們逐案處理那第一案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有沒有異議沒有"},{"start":13883.32,"end":13908.361,"text":"好沒有異議的話通過那第二案所列預算解凍案同意動之請問委員有異議沒有好沒有異議通過那我們做以下決議公平教育委員會凍結預算案第一案及第二案均同意動之並擬據報告提報院會好我們今日議程所列報告及討論事項均已處理完畢謝謝大家現在散會"}]}},{"id":"16684","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16684","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea9d66b4f497eb78a002ea0e8b14a04e9052bdb8234cc31cace78ef73fe24c006b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、繼續審查委員賴士葆等20人擬具「地方制度法第七條之一條文修正草案」案。二、繼續審查委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「地方制度法增訂第七條之四條文草案」案。三、繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等17人擬具「地方制度法第八十三條之三條文修正草案」案。四、繼續審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十二條及第六十一條條文修正草案」案。五、繼續審查委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「地方制度法第五十六條條文修正草案」案。六、繼續審查委員李坤城等20人擬具「地方制度法第七十八條條文修正草案」案。七、繼續審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條及第五十六條條文修正草案」案。八、繼續審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「地方制度法第八十三條之三條文修正草案」案。九、繼續審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「地方制度法第七條之一條文修正草案」案。十、繼續審查委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條條文修正草案」案。十一、繼續審查委員盧縣一等18人擬具「地方制度法部分條文修正草案」案。十二、審查委員邱鎮軍等16人擬具「地方制度法第五十五條及第五十六條條文修正草案」案。十三、審查委員蘇清泉等19人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。十四、審查委員黃捷等18人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。十五、審查委員范雲等24人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。十六、審查委員徐富癸等17人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。十七、審查委員許智傑等26人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。【第十七案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-19T08:31:14+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-19T11:51:59+08:00","duration":12045,"影片長度":"03:20:45","委員發言時間":"08:31:14 - 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PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":695.93,"end":696.595,"text":"Zither Harp"},{"start":2159.281,"end":2168.617,"text":"大家早安不好意思請主任秘書報告出席人數報告聯席會出席委員16人已足法定人數好那我們現在開會進行討論事項請宣讀"},{"start":2171.826,"end":2197.198,"text":"继续审查委员赖世宝等20人拟据地方制度法第7条之1条文修正草案继续审查委员陈玉珍等18人拟据地方制度法增订第7条之4条文草案继续审查委员吴丽华等17人拟据地方制度法第83条之3条文修正草案继续审查委员吴丽华等16人拟据地方制度法第52条及第61条条文修正草案继续审查委员陈玉珍等18人拟据地方制度法第56条条文修正草案"},{"start":2197.578,"end":2223.654,"text":"继续审查委员李坤诚等20人拟据地方制度法第78条条文修正草案继续审查委员李燕秀等16人拟据地方制度法第55条及第56条条文修正草案继续审查委员高金苏美等18人拟据地方制度法第83条至3条文修正草案继续审查委员鲁明哲等16人拟据地方制度法第7条至1条文修正草案继续审查委员徐晓欣等21人拟据地方制度法第55条条文修正草案"},{"start":2224.014,"end":2247.297,"text":"继续审查委员卢宪英等18人拟据地方制度法部分条文修正草案审查委员邱振军等16人拟据地方制度法第55条及第56条条文修正草案审查委员苏清泉等19人委员黄杰等18人委员范云等24人委员徐富鬼等17人委员许志杰等26人分别拟据地方制度法第33条条文修正草案宣读完毕"},{"start":2249.314,"end":2275.054,"text":"好 謝謝本市審查之法案 業經本會於114年1月13日第11屆第二會期第一次內政及司法委員會聯席會議報告及詢答結束並決議另定期繼續審查原始本市會議繼續進行審查現在進介紹在場委員及列席官員委員部分 張志倫委員羅志祥委員我們張宏祿委員王美惠委員"},{"start":2279.637,"end":2302.607,"text":"蘇巧慧委員黃捷委員我們范雲委員還有我們盧憲毅委員官員部分我們內政部劉思芳部長原住民族委員會鍾清華副主任委員財政部阮清華政務次長這樣可以嗎?對不對?在哪裡?我每次都把他放在後面"},{"start":2304.468,"end":2314.43,"text":"好那我們就本日議程因為有這個委員陸陸續續提案新增審查之法案我們請提案委員說明提案要旨首先我們請范雲委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2324.152,"end":2346.168,"text":"朝偉跟大家好我想我的提案主要是希望能夠在過去的四分之一的婦女保障名額調整為三分之一然後是任一性別那有幾個原因第一個這個條款已經25年沒有修法那過去這個不足四分之一的保障已經失效地方制度法上次"},{"start":2346.308,"end":2367.598,"text":"修法是1999年規定地方民意代表選舉選區裡面每四個人當選人必須有一名是女性那根據台大黃長林教授的研究這個保障已經失效那為什麼因為第一個它表面上是四分之一實質上是七分之一到四分之一因為五到七人的選區只有保障一人"},{"start":2368.258,"end":2389.689,"text":"以2022年的選舉為例有22%超過五分之一的議員選區沒有任何一個女性議員當選甚至有些地區連女性的參選人都沒有而且這種保障方式它存在著城鄉差距應當選三人以下的小選區毫無保障"},{"start":2390.949,"end":2419.478,"text":"2022年我們看到全國鄉鎮市區民代表會中有47%接近一半的選區完全沒有女性當選那有40%的選區到現在完全沒有女性參選人等於是零女性選區有四個選區更是從2010年到現在從來沒有女性當選過那包含宜蘭大同屏東琉球屏東車城金門烏丘那這是第一個重點25年這個部分沒有修"},{"start":2419.918,"end":2444.98,"text":"第二個是這次其實是一個進步的調整把過去的婦女黨當選名額只保障女性改成任意性別不得低於三分之一我想如果某些選區只有女性參選的話其實男性也應該要被保障所以這個條款可以促進選舉結果的性別平衡跟多元那第三其實SEDO國際的SEDO就是已經講到50%"},{"start":2447.142,"end":2462.38,"text":"那过去行政院跟内政部从2011年到2024年十多年来举办多场的检讨会会议的记录都有共识说应该要修成三分之一性别比例原则那2022年我们台湾第四次的"},{"start":2462.78,"end":2480.287,"text":"CEDAW國家報告國際的審查委員也建議我國政府應該加強保障婦女參政權並給出具體的措施提高保障名額設立招聘跟晉升的優先條款我想我們這次修法至少希望能夠得到跨黨派的共識我們這邊除了我之外黃婕委員也有提案希望能夠改成"},{"start":2490.372,"end":2503.112,"text":"跟世界的趨勢也跟台灣的就是不同性別的參政實力相當的三分之一性別保障以上謝謝范瑩委員的提案說明接下來我們請黃婕委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2513.544,"end":2527.74,"text":"好 主席各位同仁大家早安在我的地方制度法的修法當中也是強調性別應該要不低於三分之一因為大家也知道說台灣在性別平權的道路上一直都非常努力向前那也獲得國際的肯定"},{"start":2530.683,"end":2547.642,"text":"然後在消除對婦女一切形式歧視公園裡面也明確有指出說女性參與政治和公共生活的比例應該至少達到三成到三成五以上這也是一個國際趨勢那我國的憲法裡面更是明定應該要保障婦女的名額"},{"start":2548.303,"end":2559.76,"text":"可是現行的地方制度法在1999年設立了四分之一婦女保障名額之後雖然很明確的有看到說提升女性參政的意願有正面的影響但是到目前為止已經過了二十幾年我們發現還是不夠的"},{"start":2563.866,"end":2582.412,"text":"應該要再往前走所以尤其是在這種地方政治參與的場域當中我們認為應該要更進步因為在地方的民意代表裡面僅適用當選名額超過四人的選區導致說很多當選名額如果是三人以下的小選區性別保障的制度就沒有辦法發揮作用"},{"start":2584.052,"end":2589.538,"text":"以2022年地方選舉的數據來說全國有681個鄉鎮市民代表的選區當中有多達318個選區完全沒有女性當選比例是47%近五成近五成的選區裡面完全沒有女性當選這代表什麼"},{"start":2603.812,"end":2623.429,"text":"这代表说在基层的政治当中女性的声音和参与还是面临结构性的障碍甚至是刚刚其实范委员也提到说有四成的选区是完全没有女性参选过的所以我们认为地方制度法还有在修正的空间所以我在33条里面提到两个"},{"start":2623.849,"end":2641.517,"text":"一個是要擴大保障的範圍落實基層的參與包括說選區當選人數如果達三人以上那任意性別不得低於三分之一這其實不只是保障女性也同時保障男性也就是說在一個選區當中男性跟女性參與的機會是平等的"},{"start":2642.097,"end":2664.236,"text":"第二個保障多元的觀點提升決策的品質這樣的修正可以強化對於女性參政權的保障更多元更均衡的代議結構可以讓政府的施政更充分的參與不同群體的觀點來提升公共政策的品質跟周延性所以也希望所有的委員可以不分黨派的一起支持這一個提案謝謝好謝謝黃婕委員"},{"start":2670.848,"end":2695.451,"text":"那因為今天有新增條文所以我們各個機關還有在準備新的書面報告好那我們就請各位委員自行參閱我們並且刊登公報你要代表是誰代 蛤喔好可以可以可以對因為它是上次新增的版本沒關係我們在逐條的時候都可以發言好不好我們那時候再來做補充就好好謝謝"},{"start":2697.284,"end":2706.678,"text":"好那麼報告聯席會現在要宣讀新增提案討論事項第12至17案之條文以及相關修正動議請一併宣讀"},{"start":2710.031,"end":2728.4,"text":"第33條委員蘇清泉等19人提案第二項第三款第一幕前段修正為鄉鎮市人口在1000人以下者不得超過5人人口在1萬人以下者每減少1000人遞減1人至7人為止其餘同線性條文委員黃婕等18人提案委員范雲等24人提案"},{"start":2728.84,"end":2749.787,"text":"第五项修正为各选举区选出之直辖市议员县市议员乡镇市民代表名额达三人者每三人任意性别不低于三分之一比例第六项修正为直辖市县市选出之山地园住民平地园住民名额达三人者每三人任意性别不得低于三分之一比例乡镇市选出之平地园住民名额达三人者"},{"start":2750.367,"end":2765.64,"text":"每三人任意性别不得低于三分之一比例其余同现行条文委员徐富贵等17人提案第二项第三款第一幕前段修正为乡镇市人口在1000人以下者不得超过5人人口在7000人以下者不得超过7人其余同现行条文"},{"start":2766.721,"end":2792.652,"text":"委员许志杰等26人提案第五项修正为各选举区选出之直辖市议员县市议员乡镇市民代表名额达四人者应设性别比例当选名额各选举区当选之结果含性别比例当选名额需符合单一性别不低于四分之一之比例第六项修正为直辖市及有山地乡之县市选出之山地原住民平地原住民名额在四人以上者应有妇女当选名额超过四人者每增加四人增一人"},{"start":2793.192,"end":2819.511,"text":"市及无山地乡之县选出之原住民名额在四人以上者应设性别比例当选名额各选举区当选之结果含性别比例当选名额需符合单一性别不低于四分之一之比例山地乡以外之乡镇市选出之平地原住民名额在四人以上者应设性别比例当选名额各选举区当选之结果含性别比例当选名额需符合单一性别不低于四分之一之比例其余同现行条文"},{"start":2820.251,"end":2839.99,"text":"第55条委员邱振军等16人提案将第一项中段至副市长二人修正为至副市长三人并删除人口在250万人以下之指辖是得增至副市长一人等文字其余同现行条文第56条委员邱振军等16人提案第一项后段修正为人口在125万人以上或"},{"start":2843.01,"end":2853.744,"text":"行政區域面積超過1000平方公里之縣市德曾智副縣市長一人均由縣市長任命並報請內政部被查其餘同現行條文修正動議第33條"},{"start":2857.523,"end":2882.994,"text":"第五项修正为各选举区选出之直辖市议员县市议员乡镇市民代表名额在三人以上者应有任意性别当选名额一人超过三人者每增加三人增一人第六项修正为直辖市县市选出之山地原住民平地原住民名额在三人以上者应有任意性别当选名额一人超过三人者每增加三人增一人乡镇市选出之平地原住民名额在三人以上者"},{"start":2883.374,"end":2908.992,"text":"已有任意性别当选名额一人超过三人者每增加三人增一人增订第七项中华民国全年全月全日修正之前二项条文自中华民国一百十九年十二月就职之直辖市议员县市议员乡镇市民代表适用之原第七项一列为第八项其余同现行条文提案人文黄杰等五人宣读完毕"},{"start":2912.222,"end":2913.824,"text":"好 謝謝那我們現在就進行豬條協商"},{"start":3182.262,"end":3203.379,"text":"我們先請我們劉仕芳部長針對這段時間新增的提案做一下內政部的態度的說明來 謝謝昭緯有關於今天所新增的地方製度法的部分大概就是落在55條 56條跟33條的部分有關於邱振軍委員所提到的直轄市政府副市長人數統一規定為三人"},{"start":3204.139,"end":3218.415,"text":"那這個部分我們覺得說目前為止地方上沒有真正的反應有急迫爭執的需求是否一律爭執的話仍然需要凝聚共識因為在邱振軍委員同樣的這個跟55 56相關的部分他有提到說"},{"start":3219.416,"end":3241.07,"text":"如果土地面積超過1000平方公里的縣市的話可以增置第二位副市長或副縣長那現在有10個縣市得設置第二位副縣長我們也覺得說有進一步討論的空間但是呢還是一樣需要你去共識那這個部分可能在增加方面的地方政府的並不是很急迫的反映這樣子的增置的需求"},{"start":3241.67,"end":3261.511,"text":"那再來有關蘇清泉委員所提到19人蘇清泉委員等19人提案的部分就是人口1萬人以下的鄉鎮市民代表總額減緩的規定會使人口差距比較明顯的鄉鎮市選出相同代表的席次它的合理性跟公平性不一臆"},{"start":3262.552,"end":3289.929,"text":"包括徐富奎委員所提到的鄉鎮市民代表的席次不得超過7席的人口數有1萬人修正為7千人那這個部分恐怕我們執行上會碰到一些矛盾因為實務上現在已經有9個代表會按照現行的規定減少席次那如果再把它降低為7千人的話等於是說以往的這個9個代表會的席次還要再增置回來這個是比較奇特"},{"start":3290.689,"end":3319.546,"text":"那再來就是有關黃婕委員、范玉委員所許智傑委員所提到的這個地方民意代表婦女保障名額調整為任一性別名額我們認為這是一個進步性的法案但是也有待各政黨的共識那這樣子的方式呢在促進性別平等方面是有助於我們在民主政治上的體現尤其是以多席次的這個縣市議會或者是鄉鎮市代表會為主所以建議這個任一性別當選名額是改成"},{"start":3320.146,"end":3323.314,"text":"每達三人應有一人進行修正以上好 謝謝"},{"start":3330.078,"end":3353.769,"text":"因為它是逐條協商我們還是逐條跑一跑因為這個法案上一次就講說另外定期處理那我覺得多花一點時間做討論是有必要的因為其實這個加上新進來的提案版本它其實版本的數量是很多而且面向其實是不太一樣大家關注的地方不太一樣所以我們還是今天逐條逐條大家針對不同的意見跑一次看看有沒有一些想法"},{"start":3354.488,"end":3371.38,"text":"那我覺得我們今天因為我有看那個出席委員還有提案委員的這個狀況嘛我們就還是先以今天有出席的委員為主所以第七條之一齁我們賴思柏委員跟盧明哲委員提案版本這個升格改制這一個部分我們國民黨會有要代表說明的嗎"},{"start":3375.49,"end":3388.442,"text":"對沒關係因為這是上次不予處理嘛那不在嘛但我的意思是我會多排幾次這樣子的會讓每一個有提案的委員都盡量可以達成那個但是你如果都不來那我當然就沒有辦法我就不處理好不好我主持的原則會是這樣喔 對不起我是要說喔"},{"start":3392.998,"end":3407.921,"text":"我覺得這樣也很浪費時間不是啦,你既然你提案之後你之前沒來講,然後沒在庭又沒講,就在庭放棄了你現在今天又要在庭再講,我覺得是有多尊重主席啦我覺得你如果這樣,你就是沒你都在庭坐在這裡的人大半天在這裡浪費時間"},{"start":3421.294,"end":3446.008,"text":"不會 所以我的處理模式一向是我處理的模式一向是這樣 我會徵詢 因為各政黨 這政黨徵詢本來就是這樣 大家可以分工的如果有委託相關的委員來做說明 來做討論 那我們就討論如果沒有 那我們就不處理其實這樣是很清楚的 我覺得也比較平衡啦 好不好所以第七條的部分有沒有特別委託 沒有的話我們就今天也是不處理 可以嗎"},{"start":3455.319,"end":3479.89,"text":"如果下一次我們除非今天就已經把法案都做出結論要送出委員會了要不然原則上我都還是會讓大家有機會去發言好不好讓他完整OK這個我認為在每一個法案裡面充分溝通本來就是工作我們都希望可以充分的我希望盡量保障大家不同意見的這不管是對於哪一個政黨的標準一致我覺得就可以了OK"},{"start":3483.933,"end":3485.174,"text":"好 7條之4 有補充說明嗎沒有齁 OK 那我們不處理來 33條剛剛這個部長有做說明嘛"},{"start":3507.281,"end":3530.555,"text":"然後還有33條也是所有的那個性別保障名額嘛對不對好我們這邊33條來做一下討論來請黃教委員好那因為我原本的提案是說任意性別不達三分之一以上就要有保障名額然後因為其實剛剛我們有跟內政部討論過所以我有提一個修正動議應該大家手上都有可以看一下"},{"start":3531.315,"end":3556.652,"text":"我们修正动意是改成说在三人以上有任一性别当选民而一人超过三人者每增加三人增一人所以大家可以看一下文字这个会再更就是变动不会这么大一点点这样子大家可以看一下手上的这个文字那也敬请大家可以支持今天就可以送出是最好"},{"start":3560.446,"end":3560.466,"text":"請蘇曉輝委員"},{"start":3564.656,"end":3590.963,"text":"好 謝謝主席我這裡想要表示的應該是說我們其實有好幾位委員提出了版本主要是原來的的話是蘇清泉委員還有徐富奎委員大概都是屏東的委員但我覺得他們發現問題然後提出版本我們都表示尊重但我想請部會回答我們說就兩位委員提案的版本對於現在的鄉鎮市民代表會"},{"start":3591.843,"end":3609.315,"text":"他的影響到底是什麼哪些地區會有名額的增減那這樣來修法是不是妥適那另外對於剛剛這個黃婕委員還有范瑀委員提出的這個女性名額的這個部分呢其實我們是共提我有共提我們是表示支持也希望部會表示意見謝謝"},{"start":3610.712,"end":3639.808,"text":"好 謝謝 部長剛剛 部長我們剛剛那個蘇小月委員問說因為兩位屏東的委員提出來有關於鄉鎮市民代表名額修正的部分大概對於具體的員額上哪些鄉鎮市代表會員額受到影響分別是什麼 可不可以請他再做一下補充說明我可以再對 對 對沒有 我覺得如果有委員願意關心這樣子我認為都都是可以接受的當然可以啊"},{"start":3642.572,"end":3667.886,"text":"好啊那沒關係那我們就先就我們就先不用討論這個部分好了我們先聚焦在這個委員都出席的黃婕委員提出的這個修正動議的部分好了張文昭有要補充嗎我只有一個就這個修正動議沒有什麼特別意見可是我想請問一下他這邊裡面有寫超過三人者每增加三人增一人但"},{"start":3670.086,"end":3696.679,"text":"如果啊齁比如說他有六個是不是變成兩個對不對那會不會跟我們現行的四分之一的保障會不會有衝突你三個三個三個九個他也是三個但如果現在以現行的條款八個是兩個我只是要請教一下這個我們立法可能這邊要注意一下"},{"start":3698.564,"end":3728.031,"text":"對啊 啊他如果九個的話就變三個都不會有衝突喔對議員對什麼這個 嘿主席但是用比例三分之一的話我舉一個例子比如說四個人四個人的三分之一是1.33他就變成要保障兩個就變成不合理如果是每三人保障三個是保障一位"},{"start":3728.581,"end":3750.049,"text":"再加三個再保障一位這樣邏輯是清楚的那我也幫忙說明一下喔不知道那個黃捷委員的修正是每達三人者嗎就是因為他現在的版本是有三人以上者我建議文字跟原本的現狀的條文是"},{"start":3751.67,"end":3775.416,"text":"名額達四人者應有就是後面都就是剛剛講單一性別那那個張宏路委員的我們解釋一下這就是為什麼我剛剛講的就是其實我們現在所謂的四分之一婦女保障實質上是七分之一到四分之一那如果現在黃婕委員的這個修正動議通過的話就會是三分之一到五分之一那這個部分這樣解釋應該沒錯吧"},{"start":3776.796,"end":3794.13,"text":"所以現在就是說每四人會有一人八人會有兩人那以後就是每三人會有一人六人會有兩人那等於就是增強保障那它的優點是任意性別都有保障到如果現在就是三個都是女的未來就會應該是兩個女的一個男的"},{"start":3794.73,"end":3820.94,"text":"那我想那這部分影響的比較小的就是一些比較會影響的是小選區啦那大選區的話可能就是在人數比較多的部分會增加看是哪一個性別是弱勢目前譬如說從來沒有女性當選的有宜蘭大同屏東琉球屏東車城金門烏丘那是我們在這邊2010年到現在從來都沒有女性當選過這樣請李柏宜委員然後汪玲蕙委員"},{"start":3822.941,"end":3845.32,"text":"其實我們這個方向上對於剛剛其實有講到其實這是性別保障而不是婦女保障強調一下為什麼我一定要強調是性別保障而不是婦女保障因為在我的選區裡面九個議員的席次裡面你知道女性是超過六個"},{"start":3846.844,"end":3875.046,"text":"即將被保障的是男性高雄市左營跟男子所以說這個但是會有問題的是我還是具體的提出來一下經過我們這個修法的討論之後我覺得這個實施的日期也要讓所有可能現任以及現在其實已經明年就面對地方選舉了"},{"start":3876.209,"end":3884.734,"text":"那所以實施的日期我會建議說我們可以再修正往下一屆去調整讓所有選區都有來得及去處理這個問題以上提出 謝謝"},{"start":3891.345,"end":3897.467,"text":"現在是原住民有五個女性的一員三名男性的一員按照這樣的比例的話應該是男生要再多一席現在是5比3"},{"start":3915.131,"end":3928.968,"text":"所以可是在現行的法律是要保障女性的那個參政權所以等於是那個男生是沒有辦法選的在平北的那個原住民地區所以這個部分是不是一起考慮副主委應該知道謝謝"},{"start":3933.823,"end":3950.269,"text":"主席謝謝,在這就是說,我們說這麼簡單就是說現在沒有保障任何女性啦就是你那個選舉的單位,你如果三個當選都是女性你就一定要有一個男性啦現在不是說有男性去受這個罰"},{"start":3962.877,"end":3985.626,"text":"這樣是不是這個問題要公佈全數因為以前都希望說女性出頭體嘛跟都補充女性你有四個就一定要有一個女性啊跟現在是你如果有三個就是要更看那個性別是沒有的就是要有一個補充那個性別是不是這樣 議長"},{"start":3988.567,"end":4009.9,"text":"我稍微重整一下大家的意見就是說第一個現在按照現在的條文修正精神基本上就是盡量要達到性別之間的平衡所以有可能女性多的地方未來會有男性保障其實就是這樣男性多的地方就有女性保障我們部裡面我請教一下內政部部長部裡面有沒有統計一下這樣子跟現行狀況落差比較大的選區有哪些"},{"start":4010.942,"end":4034.387,"text":"是不是把資料補充給大家那當然剛剛李博弈委員這概念我是蠻贊成的就是說要有所謂的日出條款因為這個一定牽涉到我們都講這個大白話嘛這個一定牽涉到各政黨在下一次的地方選舉的布局嘛因為選舉要找人才嘛那你到底要不要性別考量它就是一個門檻或是一個戰術的考量所以你必須要做這樣的事情的所以說有日出條款的部分"},{"start":4034.947,"end":4056.034,"text":"那在內政部提供資料的同時我也請在場的委員因為現在我們黃酒委員這邊有提修正動議嘛那現在因為33條也蠻多人提案版本都不太一樣那是不是先收束成一個版本好不好這個看一下你們大家看一下彼此之間的版本是要以這份修正動議為主還是怎麼樣那一邊文字上哪一邊做調整是不是我們花一點點時間來做討論以上"},{"start":4059.104,"end":4064.095,"text":"就以黃捷的修正版本看內政部有什麼意見可以啊沒關係你們商量好就好好請部長"},{"start":4067.633,"end":4092.142,"text":"谢谢赵伟那个黄杰等六位委员的那个提案里面有一个小的部分就是说是不是民国119年在试用但是我们可不可以把它写成民国119年12月25日因为在25日就职之前万一譬如说有些当选的委员议员有些什么状况的话那他会出现那个性别上面的差距"},{"start":4099.17,"end":4114.661,"text":"加上25日這是一個其他有在問縣市議會或者是鄉鎮市代表裡面的這些目前為止沒有辦法達到我們要修正內容的部分我請我們的民政司長跟大家做一下簡單的報告"},{"start":4124.744,"end":4147.912,"text":"那個我剛剛有收到訊息那個法治局有給我們的意見立法院法治局你那個日出條款的部分應該放在這個條文的最後面要放在最後面他有講他因為跟45條的某一些法律條文有抵觸這是立法技術的問題好不好大家商量一下那需要寫這個嗎對啊就是把這一項嘛第一個把內政部加進來這是25號嘛對不對這大家應該沒有問題對不對第二我們把這個順序往後放"},{"start":4154.747,"end":4166.488,"text":"來可以的話我們就key在上面可以嗎好我剛剛有問說哪一些選區會有比較大的影響請民政司說明一下"},{"start":4167.596,"end":4186.392,"text":"如果依照現在改為三公選一人的話台北市會有18位的保障名額新北市會19位桃園16位台中16位台南15位高雄市17位宜蘭6位新竹縣8位"},{"start":4188.314,"end":4214.349,"text":"苗栗縣10位、彰化縣14位、南投縣9位雲林縣13位、嘉義縣10位、屏東縣15位台東縣6位、花林縣10位、澎湖縣4位、金門縣5位延江縣1位、基隆市8位、新竹市有8位嘉義市有7位,是保障名額的人數"},{"start":4218.649,"end":4235.29,"text":"您剛講的是縣市議會的部分嗎 直轄市議會跟縣市議會對啦 我要問的是 對 這一點我是同意 崑禎委員講跟縣況的差別 因為剛剛我們可以憑印象舉例嘛比如說哪一些選區女生特別多的 哪一些選區都只有男生沒有女生的"},{"start":4236.011,"end":4261.451,"text":"因為我在日經跟新北比起來的話其實新北現狀是比這一個保障更多啦對啊可是鄉鎮市民代表應該有差啦沒關係 再補充一下好 那范議員剛剛我有講到就是它影響比較大的應該會是那個鄉鎮市區的民代會啦因為從2022年選舉的資料有47%幾乎一半的完全沒有女性當選就零女性當選區"},{"start":4262.532,"end":4280.843,"text":"那有40%的鄉鎮市區民代會完全沒有女性參選人 零女性參選所以影響比較大的應該就是鄉鎮市區民代會那個部分影響是最大的剛剛市長這樣報告其實也不準因為"},{"start":4285.305,"end":4307.655,"text":"因為為什麼要我們為什麼要提出日出條款就是說他還是要有時間準備嘛這跟政黨的提名跟到時候選舉的方式一定的結構一定是有變動的那你現在提出來的是因為我們現在這一套四分之一這一套制度選出來然後有受到性別或婦女保障名額的這個額數這個這個是絕對是失真的一個狀況"},{"start":4311.897,"end":4326.171,"text":"那經過這一步法修了之後你如果要真的要比是用這一步經過這個三位就有一位然後套用在上一次的選舉結果可能會有多幾位性別保障的比例出來這個才是"},{"start":4327.872,"end":4349.092,"text":"其實我們要聽的啦但是也會隨著我們有日出條款到時候狀況又不一樣所以這個我還是會覺得范雲委員跟黃婕委員提出來這個還是會讓不同性別有多一層的這個參政的比例的保障這個我們表示支持但是實務的狀況你如果真的要比是要比上一屆的得票數啦"},{"start":4354.717,"end":4371.75,"text":"再補充說明一下那個議員的部分如果依照目前的規定是保障名額是160位如果三人選一人的話保障名額會237位會增加77位的保障名額"},{"start":4372.711,"end":4396.1,"text":"在這個代表的部分現行的規定保障的名額是232位如果依照薛政文三人選一人的話這個保障名額會有473位增加這保障名額增加我所說的是保障的名額"},{"start":4397.051,"end":4425.615,"text":"就是說保障的名額所以說這個保障名額如果由四分之一改成三分之一的話會增加兩百五十億位的保障名額這是代表的部分因為保障名額的算法應該就是反正你每三個就是一個其實就是這樣就是把總席次除以三的概念應該是這樣的概念對不對現行狀況是除以四婦女保障救治的情況之下那如果你變成所謂的性別保障名額就除以三"},{"start":4427.349,"end":4440.677,"text":"但是你只知道保障我是覺得你只知道保障名的數量跟實際上的狀況那是另外一回事嘛都還是另外一回事因為這涉及到選區的劃分有些地方不見得是用到保障名的有些會用到"},{"start":4443.055,"end":4451.038,"text":"應該是就是說也不是直接除以3因為現在如果那個地方民代有些人比較少他就只有兩個名額的現在三個現狀就是三個的話會三個都是男生所以我剛剛才會講說有47%的地方那個鄉鎮民代完全沒有女性當選人因為他的名額應該就是只有三人"},{"start":4462.783,"end":4488.73,"text":"對 因為他不在現行的保障範圍之內那這樣子會使得連女性連參選都不參選我同意對 那所以也因為這樣子會有一些影響所以剛剛李博弈提到的那個日出條款就是下下次選舉開始我覺得這樣是對所有的人都是公平的會比較好就是因為下一次選舉就已經是明年了嘛等於是在五年後的選舉開始讓大家有逐步的時間調整面對啊"},{"start":4489.67,"end":4515.05,"text":"好 謝謝 歡迎委員各位委員還有要補充的嗎來 請李坤城委員剛剛司長那一講就鄉鎮市民代表多了一倍我們聽起來好像說怎麼會多下那麼多其實你要把這個各個選區對 三個影響那個我覺得要把它講出來我覺得可能內政部再把它做仔細一點才會知道說我們這個條文如果修改之後然後對於這個鄉鎮市民代表的這一個保障大概是怎麼樣因為"},{"start":4516.491,"end":4544.591,"text":"因為你這樣有些選區比較大的你看應該會增加但是對於一些選區比較小的有些在三人或三人以下的那個情況會完全不一樣這個可能內政部民政事這邊要做更仔細的一個報告給我們所有的委員這樣我們會比較清楚不然一聽這個好像多了很多好那還有沒有什麼不同意"},{"start":4546.291,"end":4568.542,"text":"看起來這一條大家應該都不會反對啦包含行政機關都OK吼部長做最後確認絕對把這個往上走好 張志倫委員就是說剛剛很多我相信很多謝謝主席喔我相信剛剛在座很多委員都有提供出來說因為台灣的這個區域選區的一些問題有些選區它比如說人數很少的問題喔會造成"},{"start":4569.122,"end":4586.723,"text":"但我們都保障女性的參政權利跟男性的參政權利就是說是不是要把這些資料就是說等我們政府單位的時候統整起來說哪些選區未來會影響很多的時候還是要先把這些資料交給我們各個委員讓大家有充分的討論的意見不然的話"},{"start":4588.324,"end":4605.06,"text":"現在很多選區人很多是有幫助沒錯可是選區人數少的只有三人以下剛剛很多委員都提出來的以下的到底會造成什麼樣的影響其實大家還有應該應該還是需要消化跟討論一下所以我認為說大家是不是可以在等這個資料比較明確了以後比如說"},{"start":4605.64,"end":4627.677,"text":"他是分全台灣哪些選區北會比較多 南比較多 中比較多大家把這個資料大家拿來重新再討論一下了以後我們相信大家都支持各個性別的參政權可是我們需要有一些更明確的資料也讓大家不要說回去的時候很多地方的人會說你們怎麼修這個法令我們都不太清楚可能對我們地方會有一些影響 以上副議長選舉的最後他改變性格或是"},{"start":4633.776,"end":4657.631,"text":"我們剛剛這邊收集到一個資料每次丟出來討論就好因為我覺得到目前為止大家對方向是贊成的但是在技術上面可以完善完善我們憲法第134條有講各種選舉應規定婦女當選名額其一辦法依法律定之那現在當然其實這個是某些層面是所謂的不合時宜啦但是在客觀的技巧上會不會造成衝突或者是無法執行我們法務部"},{"start":4662.642,"end":4688.275,"text":"沒有因為單一性別的概念跟婦女其實不太一樣嘛就剛剛有討論到一下精神上就是保障到有嗎對沒有問題好對啊我們廖三四大家的好朋友說明一下好不好沒有沒有"},{"start":4692.735,"end":4720.493,"text":"因為憲法當時制定的時候不好意思我們聽一下吧沒有用到單一性別這一個概念單一性別是就是時代演進多了新的概念嘛對那你如果文藝解釋當然婦女就是很明確嘛那應該不會有第二種解釋嘛那我們現在單一性別保障是如果從現在的概念是包括男性應該是包括男性嘛女性多的地方就變成男性要保障所以這個因為我不是四線機關我也"},{"start":4727.965,"end":4743.157,"text":"其實我認為沒有違反憲法第一個他只是說有婦女當選的保障但是他沒有限制人數那我們現在的門檻值是三個三個裡面要一定有一個女性以目前來看"},{"start":4743.877,"end":4766.901,"text":"或者是未來要有兩個是女性一個是男性那表示說無論怎麼樣在鄉鎮世代的這個層級或者是多席次的層級裡面一定會有婦女當選名額那這個並沒有違反憲法上面的主要意旨那我們現在用任意性別的意思是比較符合現在的趨勢因為現在包括CEDAW也好或是包括聯合國他會覺得任意性別就是我保障女性也保障男性"},{"start":4767.481,"end":4790.652,"text":"但是同時並不違反所謂的婦女當選因為他講婦女當選的保障他也沒說名額是多少那我們現在是在地方自助法裡面去規範他名額大概是多少那我們把它寫譬如說四分之一當時會通過也沒有違憲現在是三分之一或是每三人有一人當選其實也沒有違憲的疑慮啦這提供給那個要參事參考好 謝謝部長的說明參事要補充嗎"},{"start":4796.616,"end":4798.535,"text":"沒有好沒關係這個大家想一下"},{"start":4800.632,"end":4829.725,"text":"OK 吳清平委員先舉手先跟他講好待會張宏東找我來好不好針對你說女性的保障我們就三分之一過去是四分之一那我認為四分之一比較合適因為你說沒有女性的參選當然我們要保障那我就想說我們新北就是有我們的在過去代議會都是保障都四分之一嘛那女性的還是很多啊"},{"start":4830.385,"end":4845.75,"text":"那你說要是這一期沒有女性的當然我們都要保障我認為我們是維持現行的法條是比較適合啦這是我本席的建議也不要說把整個台灣都搞亂了謝謝好 請坐 盧哲偉"},{"start":4857.145,"end":4875.648,"text":"沒有我是要跟各位報告一下我個人認為這個不管三分之一或四分之一不管三分之一或四分之一應該沒有違憲的問題那如果要違憲四分之一就違憲了已經用了那麼多年了我覺得是"},{"start":4878.639,"end":4896.652,"text":"沒關係 這個大家都可以有不同的看法啦但我個人是認為應該不會啦這個大家可以放心啦最後再補充一下這個其實我們這個任意性別三分之一"},{"start":4897.512,"end":4922.57,"text":"是比這個 如果按照範圍委員的資料會比現在的四分之一更保障女性因為我們很多的鄉鎮市民的選區因為選制的關係很多女生她根本覺得說我沒有機會選上我根本連選都不敢選所以我們這個下去之後其實是更符合憲法保障這個婦女保障名額我們是更進步四分之一到三分之一所以這沒有違憲的問題啦"},{"start":4933.07,"end":4955.94,"text":"不是這樣吧等一下好對黃學偉好我再補充一下因為其實憲法的這個意思就是因為過去女性都是弱勢所以在憲法的精神當中它就是要平等嘛所以特別把這個要對女性的保障放進去然後必須要尊重性別平等那我們現在的這個修法其實也是朝向同一個目標我再講一次喔"},{"start":4956.4,"end":4962.724,"text":"為什麼要修法是因為就上一次的地方選舉的數據來說全國有681個鄉鎮市民代表的選區然後裡面有近47%的選區沒有女性當選零女性當選也就是說"},{"start":4974.351,"end":4986.303,"text":"681個選區當中有一半沒有任何女性耶那我們現在修這個法下去不就也是符合憲法的這個宗旨就是要讓女性可以有更多機會參政嗎那當然有一些特別剛剛幾個都會區的立委同事有提到說裡面他們過去可能是女性就比較多的"},{"start":4993.891,"end":5013.363,"text":"那當然這個也可以同時保障到男性那其實在這個數據上來看還是多數是因為女性沒有辦法參政就像剛剛昆城委員說的在很多基層的選舉當中就是因為女性她看到說你這個地方就只有三個永遠都是三個男性那女性連參政的意願然後門檻天花板"},{"start":5014.884,"end":5039.992,"text":"就都存在在那裡他永遠都沒有辦法參政所以我們才會這樣子修這是一個一直都是一個結構性的問題所以我們才會修這個法所以沒有什麼造成社會混亂或者是違憲的問題絕對沒有我們就是要更支持性別平等才修這個法的所以也希望所有的好同事們大家一起來支持讓性別更平等拜託 謝謝好那個巧惠委員先要嗎"},{"start":5045.159,"end":5058.074,"text":"我剛剛有講到CEDAW現在的條款是希望保障50%原因就是因為我們的全國人口中女性跟男性是1比1"},{"start":5059.335,"end":5086.516,"text":"那當年那個憲法是十分之一的時代所以你如果從這個歷史脈絡跟國際趨勢的話我相信不會有一個大法官會說我們現在這個制度是就是傷害婦女參政的它是提升只是它要的是一個性別軍事因為它在都會跟就是鄉鎮造成的效果不一樣那其實是而且那個也只是當選民大家都還是能夠公平的競爭"},{"start":5087.637,"end":5104.833,"text":"所以希望不要因為這樣子召委就是誤導目前這個方向我沒有誤導你不要亂講話我認真講我剛剛在講這段之前我是沒有講我說這個大家都很贊成方向很好但是每一個法條的討論能夠想到什麼事情大家就完備沒有誤導的意思那我收回誤導謝謝好 蔣惠美"},{"start":5108.243,"end":5123.801,"text":"对我也我觉得赵伟刚刚是提供平台让大家讨论了有点资讯了因为我本来发言我就是说我觉得用发言帮我们内政委员会永远的一席那我们的好朋友廖参思说句话我觉得他没有要说这样是违宪的意思对啊没错"},{"start":5124.181,"end":5143.027,"text":"他只是本於他的職位那上台解釋的時候告訴我們說如果憲法是用文藝來解釋的話那當時上面的文字憲法不是不是當時是到現在憲法的本文的文字都還是寫婦女所以我們要調成單一性別的話他提醒我們是這樣"},{"start":5143.627,"end":5161.874,"text":"不過我覺得如果以從真的從我的角度我個人的意見的話其實跟剛剛幾位委員是接近的是一致的就是說從文藝上面來講因為憲法的原文也是說因規定婦女當選名額所以不管我們是怎麼個規定法是不是保障其實我們都是一種規定啊我們也沒有超出文藝啊"},{"start":5164.615,"end":5187.188,"text":"如果從立法精神來講其實我現在就是范允葳剛剛講的我們從歷史脈絡來講當時的立法意旨立憲的意旨就是在保障少數所以我想我們現在用單一性別的這樣的狀況其實也沒有違背所以我想不管是從文藝或者是從立法意旨來講我是支持我們的同事們認為大家"},{"start":5188.869,"end":5210.743,"text":"这条如果我们叫这些版本改了不会有违宪的问题我支持这一讲好谢谢苏乔惠委员张志伦委员请好谢谢主席我这边有一个想法给大家做参考我觉得就是说因为刚刚提到为什么会就是我们都支持各个性别的参政的权利可是就是因为我们刚刚一直跟大家讲我们台湾有一些选区"},{"start":5211.964,"end":5230.97,"text":"就是比較小然後參政人數會比較少那因為講白的就是說每個黨派都會派這個民意代表出來選所以未來可能會有一些壓縮一些選區只能派出男性或女性的候選人的問題所以我覺得女性保障民意我覺得大家都很重視可是如果以單一個小選區來講一定會造成"},{"start":5233.431,"end":5256.276,"text":"這個性別參政的一個壓力啊所以是不是說未來這個女性保障名額的時候可以就是把這個選區再擴大因為在人數比較多的部分的時候這個會更公平可是如果在人數選選選舉人數越少的時候會造成一些會造成一些壓縮所以如果說如果人數到達全部total到達一定的人數的時候"},{"start":5257.176,"end":5284.705,"text":"女性的人數到達一定的人數的時候那是不是就是說就是有保障到那個性別可是當如果選區如果說只有兩個人或只有幾個人的時候反而會壓縮一些人的參政的一些想法不好意思對不起那我改 跟大家講三個人的時候會有一些影響所以就是說如果把這個就是說性別的把它可以說是跨選區的說多一點人可以來來討論的時候是不是會變得比較公平"},{"start":5286.441,"end":5308.897,"text":"這是張委員是不是那張委員你的意思是說三人以下譬如說一人兩人的選區他們百分之五十的女性都不需要有人代表嗎我剛剛跟證我說三個人的時候比如說國民黨過去三個人都是這個男的那國民黨如果兩個當選或民進黨兩個當選的時候另外一個政黨他可能就只能派女性會不會有這個問題"},{"start":5311.822,"end":5322.333,"text":"每個政黨都有不同性別的人才可以派出啊那還是要競爭嘛我的意思是說沒錯啦 我說大家都可以競爭啦我的意思說是不是對"},{"start":5327.814,"end":5347.108,"text":"欸我就說大家都可以考慮啦都可以討論啦所以說是不是說如果以這個整個縣市的女性的比例或男性的比例到達某一個比例的時候就是有保障每一個縣市的人口女性都有一半男性有一半所以你的意思是就是說如果當有這樣的情形的時候我說大家現在可以來討論啦現在就是剛剛說就是小選區喔"},{"start":5350.19,"end":5377.952,"text":"鄉鎮民代表就是有百分之四十的選區連女性參選都沒有有百分之四十七的選區沒有女性當選人零選區那他們百分之五十的人口的女性所以我的意思是說他是可以跟別的選區合併起來一起看他的意思是說會有現在的男性就沒辦法當選了他還是有機會競爭嘛他如果是那三個人中的前兩名他就有機會當選嘛對不對是第三名"},{"start":5386.114,"end":5409.543,"text":"來這個志文委員這一個問題齁就是給你一個建議就是這個有日出條款齁,就提早栽培女性啦或者是提早栽培另外一個單一性別沒有沒有,就是女性男性都有,未來是女性男性都有可能啦你從五年來栽,栽培啊這樣子也會讓男性競爭更多一點"},{"start":5415.369,"end":5423.834,"text":"來 紅路招委沒完硬獎啊 可以啦差不多 這條差不多了就你收各位吧"},{"start":5425.646,"end":5450.201,"text":"其實各位大家講的都有道理啦可是我必須要說啦剛剛內政部雖然給我們那些資訊讓大家很多的討論可是有一個東西我們要去思考一下三個人以下的選區有幾個等一下然後咧八個人的選區有幾個十個因為你會受影響就這幾個級距嘛你就這幾個級距嘛其實啦"},{"start":5455.988,"end":5482.049,"text":"八個也會有因為現在從四分之一到八個這樣子你先聽我講完其實你一般就算議員選區最多也不會超過12個13個其實你真正受影響的人除了代表之外議員受影響的其實沒那麼大"},{"start":5483.772,"end":5497.027,"text":"議員受影響的其實沒那麼大啦頂多是頂多是頂多是九個人的選區會多一個你要九個以上的會多一個或十二個的以上的"},{"start":5498.548,"end":5527.708,"text":"可能會十二十三這附近可能會有但你說議員的選區有那麼多的也比較少其實最主要會受到影響的可能就是代表的選區因為代表的選區很多大概是三個人幾個人的其實大家要朝這個方向去思考我不是說內政部給我們資訊不對但是他那個資訊沒有很很細到讓我們去做一個很充足的一個判斷我的意思是這樣"},{"start":5530.99,"end":5547.865,"text":"我來補充一下那個張宏祿委員所講的部分剛剛我們那個司長所提的是三人以下選區因為你們這樣給我們問嘛但是我們修法是三人以上保障一人所以我們應該去找出來說目前三個人以上選區的是199"},{"start":5550.307,"end":5573.68,"text":"那两个人跟一个人的选区的是一个是188一个是71也就是188个跟71的不在我们现在讨论的范围内没有那个所谓的两个人就一定要有三分之一的保因为没有嘛因为每三人增加一人所以我们才在想说不要写成三分之一是每三人应增加一人的意旨"},{"start":5573.92,"end":5581.143,"text":"是在於這邊所以兩人以下的選區跟一人的其實就不在這一次條文的保障之列以上"},{"start":5588.43,"end":5616.382,"text":"那個我再補充說明一下為什麼要把這個拉到後面因為那個我們同條地方制度法第45條裡面有講那個宣誓就職的規定宣誓就職的規定有援引33條第7項所以你如果沒有調你這樣就我把那個宣誓的相關規則還是留在第7項所以把這個往後調這樣你就不用再修45條好不好是因為這樣子的一個原因而針對這樣的內容目前基本上我們在這個方向達成共識請問各位有沒有問題沒有"},{"start":5617.776,"end":5617.796,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":5626.462,"end":5655.628,"text":"等一下等一下等一下圈圈圈對啊對啊對啊日出 我再重新圈圈一下日出條款就是2030年嘛119年 OK有沒有問題對 我覺得這合理啦好不好 那既然有這樣非常有可能有這樣一個修正的方向也就請各黨今天在這邊的代表就把相關資訊帶去各黨黨團因為這跟各黨選舉布局是有關係的要栽培不同性別的人才這本來就是大家樂見的 OK好那我們就往這個方向我們就以這個"},{"start":5657.413,"end":5679.071,"text":"沒有 這個就變成委員會嘛 委員會的現在就委員會的版本嘛 我們就留著以這個為來 有人要補充嗎跟委員報告 如果現在的33條第7項變成33條第8項那會連動到一些線型條文引到33條第7項的那個項次也要並同去做修正 譬如說45條的對啊 我調完之後它就是留在第7項啦"},{"start":5682.625,"end":5687.808,"text":"沒關係 你一樣做一下統整 因為地方制度法是一部大的法所以很多確實會有連動的問題啊對啦 那個幕僚作業去處理就好了 我們不用這裡處理啊"},{"start":5725.489,"end":5738.095,"text":"33條我們現在就委員會版本像這樣好不好 OK謝謝原則上我們就這樣子好不好好 因為還有很多不同委員提不同的方向我們繼續往下走 可以嗎"},{"start":5743.196,"end":5744.458,"text":"這個武力華委員提52條有沒有要幫他帶回說明這個是有關於"},{"start":5764.867,"end":5776.859,"text":"這個因公死亡撫恤但內政部好像有說明過嘛就是說現在有有保險嘛對不對所以修了之後沒有修之後有沒有些具體的差別現在的範圍有沒有到沒有啦"},{"start":5792.972,"end":5809.659,"text":"55條有關於副市長上次有進行初步的討論那這部分我們再請內政部做一下說明可以嗎"},{"start":5826.379,"end":5838.768,"text":"我現在這邊收到的是說有做就是台北市、桃園市支持嘛其他六都其他沒有意見嘛之前我們在質詢、詢答的這些結果那時候開會的結果是這樣嘛我們跟部長再次做一下確認"},{"start":5844.856,"end":5866.49,"text":"有關五十五條 因為我剛有特別提到像那個邱振軍委員雖然有同樣的條文但是他也提到說其他的縣市在第二位副縣長裡面他也提出來就是說要保障那我們認為說這樣的姿勢體大而且目前為止在行政法律上面好像一致性不是太齊全"},{"start":5867.45,"end":5890.932,"text":"所謂的一致性不太齊全就是說我們目前的這個第二位或是第三位副市長是以人口的比例來做修正的那現在因為有首都條款的方式要把它列為是第三位副市長那這樣子對於其他不是首都或是其他非直轄市的縣市來講的話就是所謂的直轄縣市來講的話其實也不盡公平但是最後還是要看委員會這邊怎麼討論 以上"},{"start":5895.919,"end":5904.297,"text":"部長我覺得這不算是首都條款啦因為這個本來就是六都都有嘛六都一體適用啦那再來就是我是覺得"},{"start":5905.954,"end":5933.832,"text":"對 按照整個比法 我知道但我的意思是講因為現在之所以要調整這個我也支持比如說包含縣市首長什麼的一起做檢討原因是這樣嘛因為我們已經通過財政收支劃分法未來在市權分配的角度上面來講地方的事務一定會變得比較繁重所以我是覺得本來就順應這樣的市權的調整增補人力我認為是有必要啦我認為是有必要那至於就是說這個細節來講要用什麼樣的標準來做增加我們聽一聽各委員的意見好不好"},{"start":5937.377,"end":5959.709,"text":"來 大家針對55條有想法嗎來 張宏祿稍微請來 我想先請問一下內政部各縣市不管合併升格或直接升格他們升格之後他們多的公務人員到底有多了多少人比例大概多了多少你們手頭上有這個資料嗎原額的編制"},{"start":5966.304,"end":5989.431,"text":"原來是人種在控管我知道是人種啦,我剛是說請問你們我已經說請問你們有沒有資料了啊目前手上沒有目前手上沒有不是就是生殼不是不是,他生殼之後,人一定增加"},{"start":5992.608,"end":6013.845,"text":"所以 人總今天有人來嗎 人總來 請說明好 我們聽一下人事情人總是說明一下好不好 謝謝"},{"start":6019.156,"end":6039.849,"text":"是有關我們那個人總的部分是就是有關編制元額的管理啊那編制元額的話就是目前的話以地質法因為主管機關在內政部這邊那目前的話編制元額我們就是用當時那個地質法是88年修正的所以說編制元額目前的情況的話直轄市有五個級距"},{"start":6040.709,"end":6058.983,"text":"那縣市政府的話是沒有用人口數的級距然後是用那個前一年87年的一個數字然後再加上一次性的一個分配計算然後再加上88年7月1號的一個編制數做一個一次性分配所以也就是說直轄市它有五個級距然後在法規目前上是有"},{"start":6059.423,"end":6075.528,"text":"因為人口的差別然後如果有晉升成直轄市的時候依人口數會有不同的編制數但是縣市政府目前沒有這樣的一個人口數的急遽的規範是用88年當年的一個數字做一個計算基準以上報告"},{"start":6079.742,"end":6101.342,"text":"好 請問這樣有回答到趙偉的問題嗎對 所以你看所有的升格為直轄市或直轄市他的公務人員他還是依照人口數去核定他的公務人員的數目大概他剛剛人事總署的回答就是這樣所以一個直轄市的"},{"start":6102.352,"end":6127.957,"text":"公務人員有多少也是依據他服務的人口有多少去做的這個是一個我們設置這一個直轄市尤其是直轄市他的所有的公務人員該有多少人這是一個最基本也是最重要的原則這是基本的原則啦我剛剛問這個問題就是想要跟各位委員報告"},{"start":6128.917,"end":6143.34,"text":"不管一個直轄市要設多少的人員都是用人口去做他的一個基準的好 還有委員有想法嗎我們提案 李燕秀委員要不要補充一下"},{"start":6144.961,"end":6163.022,"text":"我跟大家報告一下說明一下我的第55條跟56條的精神在於現在全世界各國但是特別台灣我們大家都知道人口的負成長的狀況是會持續的但是我們的地方自治的事項"},{"start":6163.863,"end":6173.368,"text":"越來越多無論是面對極端氣候或者我們現在行政部門正在編的國土韌性不管他人口是260萬270萬或他只有150萬只要中央一個口令說我們要推國土韌性我們要推減量減碳"},{"start":6181.992,"end":6199.248,"text":"一個政策下去它不管有多少地方自治事項事實上是越來越多不會因為它的人口少所以它就不用做那另外除了人口數之外其實我覺得就是說整個地方自治的值的部分我們如何把它做得更好是重點"},{"start":6200.189,"end":6219.911,"text":"那我提這個案子其實無論是當時我們250萬直轄市250萬能增設第三個副市長當時只有台南市沒有辦法達標但是我們現在看人口數來看的話六都只有新北台中高雄有超過250萬那如果依現在人口的副成長未來"},{"start":6221.428,"end":6240.347,"text":"恐怕要達到增設第三位副市長恐怕很多縣市都沒有辦法達標那另外就是說增設一位副市長會增加多少的預算數不是因為說增設一個副市長他連他可能有幾十個秘書也沒有等一下我可能請行政部門回應我們"},{"start":6241.568,"end":6258.22,"text":"會因為曾社副市長而增加多少的預算數嗎這是第二點 第三我們現在地方知識事項越來越多跨行政 工程 公務 警察 文化 教育這個領域事實上是非常的廣"},{"start":6259.341,"end":6283.108,"text":"那所以我覺得如果在專業分工的部分我們可以分得更完整對於全國各縣市地方自治的事項無論是配合中央或者是服務地方我覺得會不會做得更完整這個是我在第55條跟第56條我提出來修正案重要的意義跟他的精神在裡頭"},{"start":6284.068,"end":6306.513,"text":"那希望各委員其實藍綠各縣市都有而且這是面臨現在未來全國人口負成長未來的趨勢其實恐怕無論是直轄市的第三位副市長恐怕以後都沒有機會增設第二非直轄市恐怕達120萬人口也可能越來越少增加的經費"},{"start":6307.953,"end":6337.068,"text":"其实不多不会因为增加一个副市长而他连带有好几十个秘书也没有但是我们地方知识事项从中央配合极端气候厂照政策国土韧性这些专业的事项可能越来越多增设一个副市长在跨领域专业分工可不可以做得更好这三项是我主要提55条跟56条重要的精神跟目标在希望各位委员有机会可以支持谢谢"},{"start":6342.197,"end":6362.842,"text":"我覺得地方制度法其實跟財政收支劃分法這個是必須要合併一起討論的啦當然我們財劃法裡面當高雄一直在喊叫面積人口的時候沒有人要聽然後現在就要來跟我們說台北市人口老化等等的"},{"start":6363.522,"end":6389.699,"text":"我覺得這個是一致的必須要一併來討論的當初沒有被尊重到的一些直轄市跟現在又要讀後首都的這個法條的討論我還是覺得以全國這樣子以自信來講的話很難不讓人家聯想到這是專門只為了台北市而且還是只為了台北市的某一個副市長想要參選的一個條款啦"},{"start":6391.58,"end":6405.855,"text":"所以內政委會這麼認真嚴肅要討論整個地方制度法的時候那去扯一個可能是為了選舉量身訂做的法案我在這邊提出希望大家多三思啦 謝謝我覺得"},{"start":6409.584,"end":6426.113,"text":"現在按照法條的內容來調整來處理到沒有讀後哪一線是問題因為如果按照院學委員提的版本只要是副市長三人台北市、桃園市、台南台中應該都會提按照法條來講是這樣子啦台南市並沒有提出來啦"},{"start":6426.573,"end":6448.215,"text":"那台北市的委員來提出來所以我們很容易聯想這是為了台北市來提的啦我覺得比較我們是全國的立法委員未來這個法條其實會適用到很多各縣市而且現在人口負成長未來大家都面臨得到重點是如何把事情做得更好地方自治事項做得更好是我提案的精神 謝謝"},{"start":6449.52,"end":6472.837,"text":"那個我先補充說明一下我們待會請王議長委員發言就是說我當初在質詢這個題目的時候我的概念是這樣就是說以桃園為例啦就我們的副市長工作其實就是督導各局處啦那我相信在其他的地方政府也一樣但現在不管大家的人口是成長的趨勢或者是下降的趨勢其實很多局處大概都是盡量滿邊嘛因為地方事項繁雜然後也多嘛那"},{"start":6474.045,"end":6499.086,"text":"加上財化法修正之後其實地方的事情會更多那更多的時候其實是增加人力讓督導的品質變好我覺得方向上是這樣所以我個人是蠻贊成說增加相關的員額啦好不好好這我補充一下說明來我們請王一川委員好這議員外界質疑這叫李四川條款大家都說他保守什麼叫首都條款"},{"start":6500.345,"end":6505.648,"text":"既然李四川這樣,我是建議這樣啦建議這種在民國幾年來實施啊這樣就叫李四川沒關係國民黨如果這樣說下去,事情就解決了啦"},{"start":6511.816,"end":6527.93,"text":"對 國民黨也說這叫李四川什麼關的 沒關的啦沒關的就看是後排跟實施 下一屆開始實施這樣也寫得出來 下下屆2030啦 加加多一條一樣2030啦這樣給我們解決疑慮啦 這樣疑慮才可以解決不然一直都說李四川條款對李四川也不公平"},{"start":6538.098,"end":6556.866,"text":"不然他也可以做台北市副市長 選新北市的市長 這樣也可以腳踏兩條船這樣也可以 不然這樣一般人也沒有在這裡 大家說他在說首都條款 說到影匯這個在四川條款 有人在保護他 所以下下介再實施 看要怎樣"},{"start":6559.928,"end":6579.347,"text":"來 請李修緯謝謝感謝王委員但是我想我們都很多事情都太政治化來看但是我要提的是全國的市民在等市政的推動我們所有的東西都要等下下屆都要壓一個這個太政治化的東西而且"},{"start":6583.089,"end":6604.162,"text":"台北市現在是三位副市長但是不是直轄市我這次的修法其實包括非直轄市的部分我的人口數也有放寬現在是很多沒有達到第二位未來馬上就可以第二位副市長也可以把縣政的工作做得更好"},{"start":6604.662,"end":6622.728,"text":"更何況我一直在強調地方自治法其實現在很多縣市的地方的業務也越來越多我剛才強調的包括行政部門在推的什麼國土韌性啦極端氣候啦減碳啦強照其實事務也都越來越多非直轄市"},{"start":6624.068,"end":6646.601,"text":"可以偵涉第二位副市長而不受到人口的限制我相信也會是所有其他非直轄市的福音所以我覺得請各位委員是不是可以去思考我的版本不是只有針對直轄市以上 謝謝好 我們待會要接著討論一般的縣市嘛好不好就一樣我們時間抓一下來 張宏祿早委有請"},{"start":6647.722,"end":6675.391,"text":"我覺得好像每個人講的都有他的道理存在但我們想一想以前沒有副市長的時候這些都在幹什麼以前沒有副市長的時候政務都沒有推動嗎因為以前市長比較強以前市長比較強我覺得不能這樣講以前全台灣每個縣市每個直轄市也都沒有副市長那他的政務怎麼推動"},{"start":6676.584,"end":6704.162,"text":"他都沒有嗎?我講這個齁我講這一個是說要讓大家去思考一下這一個東西是可以討論的但就像剛剛李博議員講的你這個討論其實我認為要討論要三個法一起討論地方制度法、財化法跟行政區劃法三個一起去討論然後你才可以去徹底解決這個問題而不是說你用一個理由好像說啊事情沒有辦法做我跟你講"},{"start":6706.14,"end":6729.918,"text":"我認為啦在一個龐大的市政府裡面其實不缺一個兩個副市長那如果要這樣講我們新北市人口400萬那為什麼你不多給我們幾個我跟你講以我們新北市的立委來講如果你通過這個法案那我們新北咧我們新北是矮的你等嗎 低的你等嗎"},{"start":6732.321,"end":6753.022,"text":"所以我覺得這一個東西我們必須要全盤的去看啦而不是這樣子看我真的覺得立法還是要有它的品質在跟它的原則在我們立法的品質還是要顧到啦好 謝謝張榮哲我們請蘇小霍委員然後徐新偉"},{"start":6759.476,"end":6783.906,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝主席這個因為我這個做人做事一向坦蕩蕩公開啦所以大家也知道我現在確實是有報名下一場比賽所以我本來想說涉及事務的話就不要發言這樣比較公平公正因為剛剛這個王玉川委員講到的時候我想說涉及事務就不要發言可是張文烏委員說到新北市的市政的時候我又覺得不行我一定要替新北市講兩句話"},{"start":6785.146,"end":6811.56,"text":"那我覺得是這樣就是確實我們這次從修法以來大家都各個委員提出版本我們都尊重從這一屆以來不管是裁劃法或者是任何其他的法律但是我們必須說你看到問題要提出解方這個我們都尊重可是你這個解方是不是能夠適用到全國然後到各個情況都能夠公平使用"},{"start":6812.361,"end":6826.78,"text":"適用這就是問題的所在然後它的配套到底有沒有已經完備這部所謂的新法就實施上路這也才是更大的問題像財政收支劃分法就是一個很明顯的例子"},{"start":6827.361,"end":6834.006,"text":"因為各個地方政府誰不想要錢多我們當然也想要錢多一點新北市當然想要多一點錢但是問題是你的中央後面的錢和權跟地方重新怎麼劃分到底最後我們的總數是多少這如果沒有講到好還有為什麼每個比例的縣市是這樣為什麼花蓮可以增加這麼多新北才增加這樣按比例來說為什麼是這個版本"},{"start":6851.46,"end":6874.856,"text":"這我們也想要知道啊所以這樣的狀況我們就覺得對才化法當時我們是很保留的嘛好那你現在說才化法現在到地方制度法的這個副市長副市長職位當然我們也覺得現在事務繁多能夠有更多的優秀人才為地方服務都是好事那麼現在我們有這個版本大家在討論的時候本來內政部並沒有覺得"},{"start":6875.777,"end":6899.882,"text":"要由這個修法今天李委員提的這個版本內政部持保留的態度那我們是不是就一定要看為什麼是250萬人的時候徵社一席那確實就是如同張宏立委員說的嘛如果我們是因為事務繁雜以至於在250萬的時候又畫了一個新的界線變成三人那麼我們新北市現在真的就是"},{"start":6900.942,"end":6905.603,"text":"超過400萬人啦 足足比250萬人又多了150萬人欸那我們是不是應該增加第四席 甚至是第五席到底每增設一席的集聚在哪裡 我們要不要也一併討論對啊 那如果這樣大家都講到講到鐵 好啊 這樣就來啊 對不對所以我本席提出這樣的意見 把全套一起想好"},{"start":6927.547,"end":6933.342,"text":"謝謝主席剛剛大家就打開潘朵拉的盒子那這個條款就是李時春條款吧"},{"start":6933.991,"end":6959.24,"text":"因為現在台北市人口的確是不到250萬那這個台北市人口減少但是我們新北市人口是增加的所以說今天如果說台北市沒有達到這個基準那本來就應該降成兩席所以你可以說他是李四川條款我也可以說是蔣萬恩條款你市場強的話你兩個副市長也是可以做得很好那為什麼說一定要保留到這個第三席這個你人口數不到然後你就硬要保留到第三席"},{"start":6959.68,"end":6981.2,"text":"所以就是說這個市長是比較弱一定要有三個副市長要來扶持他才有辦法做那如果現在不修這個法的話那到底對於現狀會有什麼樣的影響我覺得也沒有什麼影響影響不大那如果說真的硬要說這個因為這個不管是李四川或是蔣灣硬要修這個條款的話我覺得是因人設施這個比較不適當"},{"start":6985.796,"end":7001.004,"text":"好謝謝學信委員謝謝我想今天討論這個我也非常認同前面各位委員的這個意見也尊重那但是就是說譬如說我們看直轄市或非直轄市直轄市的部分"},{"start":7003.185,"end":7022.531,"text":"250萬人他這個少一點多一點都在250萬上下那當然我第一個我是想提出就是說我們也不要太標籤化今天即便不是李四川假設是一個李五川他當這個台北市的副市長那台北市的人口這樣上上下下在250萬的這種這個附近上下徘徊的時候"},{"start":7029.293,"end":7048.488,"text":"今天也不是說市長的能力怎麼樣而是說今天我們多一位副市長或是副縣長來相助讓市政或縣政可以推動得更好我們的思考是這樣然後再來就是社會的變遷我想這個"},{"start":7049.869,"end":7073.47,"text":"上一個會期我們在討論的時候除了人口數之外社會的變遷社會的情況我想大家應該也認同我們現在雖然智慧型手機出來十幾年前沒有智慧型手機可是智慧型手機出來好像也沒有特別清閒還反而特別忙碌所以社會的變遷包括我們警察老師現在都不好當所以我們站在這個隨著社會"},{"start":7075.111,"end":7075.291,"text":"人口比250萬還多這麼多"},{"start":7093.923,"end":7121.339,"text":"支持我們一併討論就是說我們看把人口集聚也弄出來然後另外縣市的話我想上次王美惠委員也有提未來你也可能是我們的也有可能是縣市長所以是不是一個縣市也可以有兩席的副市長或副縣長那其實也是因應社會的變遷那在這邊我個人提一個我在第八屆的時候"},{"start":7122.199,"end":7148.345,"text":"我一個人一個立委我的選民數有五十幾萬那時候南投兩席立委加起來都沒有我的多所以我覺得這個有的時候很難就是說人口在成長你來不及修法那當然有一些人他就承擔了但是我們如果法律完備然後再來就是其實多一席對整個財政負擔也沒有"},{"start":7148.965,"end":7172.348,"text":"影響但是呢可以讓市政縣政尤其剛剛我看到有的也提到有的面積比較大的那所以我們我是支持啦直轄市那可以最少三位那人口討論一下人口更多的我們集聚要怎麼樣來增加然後縣市的話能夠有兩位副市長或副縣長謝謝"},{"start":7174.022,"end":7197.908,"text":"好 謝謝徐欣英委員其實我剛剛非常高興我們張榮宇召委跟蘇小委員都有提到新北的問題嘛我們就討論這個事情不是一人涉世反而是就借這樣的機會一併來思考嘛一併來思考我相信未來地方政府的工作不管是直轄市或者是縣市政府一定是變比現在繁重這是確定的人口可能會變少因為少子化沒辦法但工作會繁重確定因為財化法嘛"},{"start":7198.468,"end":7218.677,"text":"所以我是覺得我是非常贊成都增加你說新北市要不要四個副市長我認為我都覺得很合理因為事實上你認真講台灣新北市的服務員跟這樣的人口數大概只有新北市會這樣我們如果真的有這樣子的一個條款我也不會認為它是所謂的新北條款因為本來就是要解決共同的問題所以"},{"start":7221.888,"end":7227.884,"text":"現在看起來兩邊共識是比較有限有限但是我覺得沒關係大家還沒有什麼意見要來做補充"},{"start":7228.925,"end":7258.147,"text":"在我們往下走之前直轄市的部分大家都我覺得大家都已經大家都已經立場都表達得很清楚了嘛對不對我覺得新北市尤其是新北市的委員不管黨派啦都可以思考一下如果說按照工作量繁重等等加起來新北市要有一個怎麼樣的版本對新北市發展有利我覺得大家可以思考一下如果可以收束版本是最好不同的話我也鼓勵大家提出這個不一樣的版本直轄市市長的人數副市長的人數那縣市的部分大家有沒有想法有沒有意見"},{"start":7260.325,"end":7271.363,"text":"56條好 李博人我覺得那個剛剛主席講的那個我繞回來再講55條"},{"start":7273.479,"end":7291.418,"text":"今天是在討論台北市那個副市長辭掉以後要不要讓他補要用法制化來讓台北市補要變成有三個副市長結果你現在講一講講到說好那我們從三個開始加全部的職牙師從三個開始加來看新北面積多大要加幾個人口多少要加幾個"},{"start":7292.259,"end":7316.481,"text":"高雄你人口這樣那你面積多大有沒有資格加我覺得又破壞了原本的討論是不是再收回來收束一下來討論說人口急劇以及這個地方制度法其實跟財政收支劃分法當時的審法當時的審法把整個人口擺為重點把整個面積全部忽視造成高雄的極度不滿"},{"start":7318.049,"end":7343.494,"text":"你現在這個只要用人口或者是要用往上加的話這一個會議就只是在增加全台灣所有縣市直轄市要增加幾個副市長縣市要增加幾個副縣長我覺得這樣很奇怪啦跟我們的地方制度法以及現在的這個財政收支劃分法已經劃下去的都是一個很奇怪的修法提供給各位做參考好 請徐信委員"},{"start":7347.305,"end":7352.99,"text":"不好意思 我想我們今天討論地方制度法財政收支劃分法也不是在內政委員討論當初是在財政委員會討論的"},{"start":7357.391,"end":7379.156,"text":"那但是就是說地方制度法我們現在針對的是整個我們這個第55條56條副市長或是副縣長這個非直轄市的副市長副縣長的討論所以是不是有必要把財政收支化分法一起拉進來這點我覺得我們也可以"},{"start":7380.376,"end":7406.491,"text":"再思考一下因为这个部分的讨论跟财政财政送资划分法确实它是一个非常大而且也比较复杂的但是这跟我们副市长或副县长这个应该是可以不必一并讨论那再来本席最后也强调就是说我们在讨论法条的时候其实真的也不要太过度解读真的不是说特别针对谁当然你要这样讲"},{"start":7407.071,"end":7435.288,"text":"那当时任职在那个位置上的那当然他这个没办法他就只能承担了但是我们还是希望能够比较理性然后平和的来看待直辖市跟非直辖市因应现在社会的整个的变化那我相信我们今天在座的委员未来也都很有可能会是直辖市的市长或是非直辖市的县市长"},{"start":7436.314,"end":7463.002,"text":"所以我們這個大家可以聚焦一點討論就是增加一位副市長或是副縣長這個對於整個會有什麼衝擊如果沒有但是面對現在的現況其實是真的可以相助到行政首長這一塊我本席再次說明 謝謝好 謝謝針對縣市的副縣長或副市長的人數大家有沒有想法跟意見"},{"start":7470.435,"end":7489.568,"text":"好我覺得大家意見表達的差不多了雖然這一條的共識比較有限但沒關係我們就先hold著我們先保留那一樣就是各行各派我是覺得把這個相關的意見做一個整合跟收束啦形成統一的版本嘛我們再進到下一個階段我認為會是比較妥適的好不好那我們今天不耽誤大家的時間我們繼續往下走OK好61條這個是村里長的撫恤金按照剛剛的我們就不處理可以嗎還是有沒有代理要說明的"},{"start":7500.438,"end":7523.307,"text":"沒有 不處理 我們就不許處理78條 我們李昆城委員提的所謂的停發諷解來 李昆城委員 你要說明一下嗎因為我們現在地方制度法第78條有規定就是說民選首長有重大刑案被起訴那應該停職但是停職的新諷諷解是否有發放沒有明確的規定所以會有標準不一的一個情況"},{"start":7524.207,"end":7539.948,"text":"然後現在是按照這個如果說你選首長停職的話停職期間是否發給半封是按照這個行政院人事行政總署的一個規定那是由目前是由這個等於是由內政部來決定說那是不是發給這個半封"},{"start":7541.57,"end":7568.382,"text":"那我是覺得說我的這個修法是明確增訂在停職期間同時停止發給諷刺的規定那一方面防止這個公帑資源遭到濫用那一方面保持這個確保制度公平的一致性免除外界對於雙重標準的疑慮那這個目前也有這個兩位遭停職的這個縣市長那內政部也表示說為了貫徹政府掃除貪污建立年齡政治決心"},{"start":7568.962,"end":7591.886,"text":"因此決定停職期間不合給半數的這個縫額那我是覺得說這個我們就也不是說這一個特別針對誰那我是覺得說我們是不是我們把這個規定把這個制度把它明確化就直接在我們這個地方制度法的第78條裡面就很明確規定你只要是民選的首長這個遭到停職我們這個新縫就停止這個發給這以上說明"},{"start":7596.823,"end":7610.215,"text":"我們行政單位有沒有要補充說明的好 請人事行政總署可以說明一下嗎針對這個條文放在這個地方是不是和一些內容文字的有沒有必要修正請做一下補充說明 謝謝"},{"start":7613.494,"end":7635.572,"text":"人事總署這邊說明那因為我們今天這一塊的這個諷刑法是我們給予處的這個業務那所以有關這個之前這個函式的部分我們能夠代為說明的部分就是說這個是由那個主管機關那個地制法的主管機關內政部去決定說是不是去做後續那我們尊重內政部的一個處理這樣 以上請國務部長"},{"start":7640.663,"end":7642.165,"text":"那個縫擠的部分 村里長會不會衝突"},{"start":7663.032,"end":7689.719,"text":"對啊 因為你寫村里長嘛 然後停發鳳擠因為鳳擠好像是村里長是叫做那叫服務費嘛 對不對那其實不是鳳擠對不對村里長就是無擠職啦他是無擠職啊 這可以修正啦我們就在討論的過程中來做一下好 針對這一條大家還有沒有什麼要補充的那文字上要不要做一下修正"},{"start":7692.694,"end":7716.009,"text":"你是要改縫擠還是把村里長拿掉嗎?大概是這樣吧,因為這兩個...村里長拿掉,有噴水的意思因為對村里長沒有縫擠但如果真的發生這樣的狀況的時候,他的機制是什麼?對啊,因為你村里長還...對,他會不會就沒有停職的問題了嘛"},{"start":7733.81,"end":7744.376,"text":"那個民政說明一下好不好村里長的部分因為他不叫鳳姐他就叫什麼來來你那個要說明一下有過事務補助費事務補助費嗎鳳姐或事務補助費"},{"start":7748.434,"end":7760.706,"text":"那現在是叫事務的補助費那把它改成事務的補助費好了這個是村里長的 或停發奉集或事務補助費"},{"start":7791.386,"end":7799.953,"text":"可以嗎 針對這樣子的法條修正文字 請問大家有沒有意見來 巧惠委員看一下 好"},{"start":7806.488,"end":7821.977,"text":"我們部長說一樣我們要請教我們的老朋友防護廖強憲戰士看一下這個部分好不好文資修正給我們一點意見謝謝對就是現在這樣子如果法條是這樣寫的話"},{"start":7829.093,"end":7850.811,"text":"因為村里長的那個費用他有他的專用名詞就是事務補助費那不好意思公務員就是一般的諷刑那現在因為原來昆城委員的版本是因為停發諷刑所以下面對應的是公務人員諷刑法第21條那我們現在加了一個事務補助費他對應的法條的部分有需要再增加嗎"},{"start":7853.764,"end":7867.183,"text":"請教一下主管機關的是目前村里長他領事務補助費有沒有另外像公務員就是這種停職職務的時候他也有這種"},{"start":7870.687,"end":7891.218,"text":"領一半的這種規定如果有的話才需要再加進去如果是完全沒有因為公務員目前有奉集法21條的適用所以他必須要特別在這個地方把它排除掉那我不知道村里長目前目前他的事務輔助會有沒有這一類的規定如果有的話才建議把它加上去"},{"start":7893.548,"end":7914.306,"text":"來 民政司那個村里長如果停職的話他失誤補助費是讓代理人來領這個失誤補助費所以其實並沒有其他相關的一個規定要做處理代理就是通常代理就是你幹事或者是什麼去代理嘛"},{"start":7920.463,"end":7942.935,"text":"巧合委員的意思是他如果已經停職了就一定就不會發補助費了嗎因為補助費是給代理的人嘛對那這樣的話我們還要寫嗎因為剛剛我們是認為他會領嘛所以我們要不要讓他領到嘛所以我們在這裡的時候說把事務補助費停掉可是你現在告訴我的是說村里里長的部分如果被停職是直接會指派代理人"},{"start":7943.635,"end":7970.803,"text":"而且事務補助費是直接就給這個代理人了那這樣我們還需要在這裡停發事務補助費嗎因為這樣反而會讓那個代理的里長沒有事務補助費用喔是這個意思吧也不是啦但應該說這樣寫就是有寫跟沒有寫可能效果是一樣的因為事實上停職就不會發嘛所以你有沒有寫他都不會發給那個被停職的人而是會發給那個代理的人這樣子"},{"start":7987.196,"end":7999.907,"text":"請主管機關確認的是說村里長他停止職務的時候他有沒有特別的規定類似公務人員奉集法就是他可以領一半的這種規定那如果沒有的話就不需要因為他"},{"start":8000.546,"end":8022.895,"text":"另外代理人那是給代理人的補助費嘛那不是村里長自己個人的補助費所以應該是如果是他沒有類似公務人員奉集法21條的這種規定那就不需要再特別增列上去因為他就是停止停發而已所以其實就是沒有其實沒有必要寫嘛是這樣意思是不是"},{"start":8029.25,"end":8056.802,"text":"村里長要停職務啊他要停職務他的職務被停了他的職務停了以後才產生了代理人嘛那依照現行的規定就是只要代理人一出來這個事務補助費是直接移轉到代理人身上的啊對不對所以我們本來就所以我們在這裡反而不應該把它停發對啊因為我們現在的狀況我們現在如果按照我們新修的狀況是停止職務及停發奉給"},{"start":8058.226,"end":8072.602,"text":"或 事務補助費呢那個或字是鳳幾或事務補助費動詞是停發啊你現在如果把它加上去我們本來以為是他有發啊啊你這樣寫了停發以後反而代理人會領不到耶是不是這樣"},{"start":8078.104,"end":8100.346,"text":"也不是啦 因為我們這個是針對被停職的人啦應該是針對被停職的人 不會針對到說那個GT的人的這個不管是事務補給費因為就算現在有那個代理的這個縣市長這個副市長來代理 他本來就也是有薪水啊我們只是說停職的那個人 我們不給奉給或是說事務補給費啦"},{"start":8105.509,"end":8123.789,"text":"那只是說因為現在這個我們鳳擠這個有沒有停發沒有一個明確的標準規定我這樣聽我這樣聽是說事務補助費只要是村里長他只要有被停止就沒了就沒了就沒了就沒了那所以說那所以那這個寫有沒有關係啦對其實沒有關係"},{"start":8127.455,"end":8148.123,"text":"那你還有堅持要寫嗎 還是就不寫沒有啊 我是看大家的討論 主要是就是說這個用意在於說只要是停職就沒有領薪水啦那怎麼寫會比較這個合乎法規的 大家討論一下但是你寫前面有里長 後面不曉得怪怪的 會不會這樣子"},{"start":8150.54,"end":8172.817,"text":"沒關係 去思考一下如果寫的也沒有影響因為上面還有村里長如果把它寫上去也沒有受到影響的話那就把它補上去好 另外我要提醒一下我剛剛有查到一個因為我特別去看了一下公務人員風級法第21條規定所以我建議我們委員會要達成你要把21條改成21條一項規定"},{"start":8174.958,"end":8197.623,"text":"因為二十一條第一項是講說你如果有狀況我是本來要發半封嘛但因為你現在要從嚴處理嘛所以不能讓他領半封要全部拿掉可是二十一條的二項三項是萬一最後還他清白你要補給他喔那本來就應該補給他可是你如果不適用這個的話那通通都沒有了你會連個補的都沒有所以我是覺得把二十一條一項把它寫清楚來好不好這"},{"start":8203.722,"end":8221.934,"text":"對 你們確認一下好不好沒關係 來 李培委員我請問一下民政司齁 這個事務補助費我們其實定義它不是 它應該不是算縫集對不對不算縫集 對那我們現在討論的是縫集要停對不對"},{"start":8223.615,"end":8250.514,"text":"那所以如果依照這個邏輯來講的話如果村里長被停職 因為他們被停職的話他也不會領到這個私務補助費對不對那所以依據這三個脈絡來講的話我是建議說這個私務補助費就不要寫進去會比較合理啦對 因為你上面有村里長 現在沒有也蠻奇怪的"},{"start":8254.622,"end":8255.168,"text":"好 沒關係啦"},{"start":8265.69,"end":8283.72,"text":"我的原來版本是因為內政部說因為還有村里長在上面啦那所以說村里長他不是奉旗嘛他是失誤補助費那如果說加了或失誤補助費也沒有影響的話那我覺得讓整個法條看起來更完整我是覺得加上去也可以啦那當然"},{"start":8297.029,"end":8319.457,"text":"給代理里長啦 對啊其實因為我們是針對被停職的人啦好 民政司補充應該不是說轉移啦 而是說實際執行這個村裡服務的這個人的補助費是這個服務村裡的一個事務的一個相關的費用誰來執行就是誰來做的"},{"start":8325.265,"end":8337.414,"text":"好 那如果條文照這樣子 還有問題嗎對 那個奉集法的部分 任總做最後一次的補充好不好我們差不多要有個結論 我們要往下走我們原住民委員等很久了 所以我也不太好意思了"},{"start":8351.725,"end":8373.122,"text":"跟委員報告一下我這邊是詮釋部那剛剛提到的那個諷刑法部分因為其實我們諷刑法適用對象是定有關職等的公務人員所以其實村里長還有這個民選首長的部分其實他不是我們諷刑法適用對象那這可能就要回歸到內政部的跟人總或者是相關的一些"},{"start":8376.584,"end":8386.684,"text":"那沒有 如果他的意思是講完全跟奉行法無關意思是根本不用寫嘛對不對 不用寫 是不適用的問題嘛你的意思是這樣子嗎他不是我們奉行法的適用對象 對對對"},{"start":8392.133,"end":8415.967,"text":"好 越來越複雜了 大家頭很痛了我建議這樣子啊 來 我跟委會報告一下跟聯席委會報告一下這個 不管 我們現在有幾個爭點嘛針對這一條 譬如說諷刺 還有村里長的部分然後是不是用公務人員諷刺法那大概都還有一些發散跟一些需要思考的地方所以我建議我們這條我們就擱著好不好因為我講我們今天沒有急著要下結論我們下一次開會的時候再來處理好不好 昆城委員"},{"start":8417.011,"end":8441.704,"text":"我的意思是說如果大家有這個共識就是停職就是不拿薪水那如果有這個共識的話那如果這樣子是他沒有適用這一個公務人員的諷刑法那我們就把它拿掉我們就把它拿掉因為就是說我們就是到前面停止其職務或是停發諷刑或事務補助費這樣就可以了"},{"start":8442.694,"end":8460.533,"text":"但如果有公務員身份的我們是講那個市的首長現在都是民選的啊因為這是地方制度法的修正所以如果你那個什麼公務員懲戒法跟公務員奉勸不要寫就是獲事務補助費後面就寫復職後也不補發這樣就好了"},{"start":8464.158,"end":8489.607,"text":"因為那裡面很多有些不是公務人員就是民選的跟一般公務人員要有那個懲戒法或者是公務人員諷刑法的那個規範的範圍還是有一點不太完全一樣也就是說不要寫懲戒法也不要寫那個諷刑法就是就是復職後也不補發對啊會有復職後的問題我覺得有復職後的問題我們現在在處理是復職後的問題如果解職的話是全部都沒了"},{"start":8490.732,"end":8498.524,"text":"對 所以越來越複雜了嘛 好不好沒關係 我們各自待會去稍微做一下研究我覺得方向上大家不反對就是把這個懲戒條款增加嘛"},{"start":8500.353,"end":8521.521,"text":"沒有 因為其實如果他復職了其實我是同意他可以拿回他的薪水對 你就變成要另外再加條文如果你不這樣寫的話那狀況會是這樣那所以我的意思是說我們只是處理到他停職的這個部分停職的部分我們就是不發給他的薪水因為目前沒有這個標準嘛那我就把它明確化"},{"start":8524.781,"end":8538.008,"text":"我們是不是可以收束一下然後我覺得你要下一次我也沒有意見我們現在狀況就是說除了原本的停職之外我們要讓停止鳳擊的部分不發給這個薪水不發薪水給他這件事情要明確化所以我們就寫了停發鳳擊這個部分但我們第一個爭點一是因為有村里長所以事務補助費要不要寫上去這是第一個那會牽涉到的是"},{"start":8552.856,"end":8575.53,"text":"事務補助費到底寫上去比較明確呢還是寫上去反而會造成代理人領不到這樣的文藝這是第一個這是增點一啦增點一剛剛這樣的狀況嘛那增點二的話是因為要講這件事情所以下面要引用的法條這個不適用的部分呢除了懲戒法之外要不要是公務人員奉集法"},{"start":8576.551,"end":8603.189,"text":"第一項或者是全條文甚至是還有沒有其他的條文要引用的這個是增點二嘛然後增點三現在復職後如果這個停職就是判決之後他無罪了嘛那在這樣的狀況下那他可以復職那甚至是要是時間已經過了呢他那個任期民選的部分任期已經過了呢那要不要把他當時沒有在職的那一段時間的薪水奉給他"},{"start":8604.89,"end":8622.932,"text":"這樣有三個爭點那是不是請內政部可以就這部分直接提出對啦我覺得可以思考一下不是啦就是下一次還有權序還有權序好不好這樣所以這點我們就先保留好不好就是請各委員彼此之間串一下就把它變成流暢可行然後大家都可以可以的版本嘛總是要"},{"start":8625.968,"end":8645.164,"text":"對嘛就基本的這個所以那個也請我們相關的行政機關跟我們提案委員這邊來做一下清楚的溝通跟說明然後整合出可以的版本好不好那我們這點我們先保留好我們接下來進83條但不管怎麼樣我們先休息一下好不好喘口氣喘口氣休息五分鐘大家上上廁所11點回來這邊我們做83條的討論好先來休息"},{"start":8651.698,"end":8656.1,"text":"你為什麼那麼高啊?因為我拉到最高小朋友什麼時候這麼大塊了我想說為什麼每次到最低的位置"},{"start":8677.472,"end":8680.754,"text":"高起來了耶我發現你每次站那個板子都站很高就是那個呈現很..."},{"start":8703.468,"end":8718.027,"text":"那個麥克風會擋到我就是 這裡每次看到麥克風那個是不太自然的跟我們平常的溝通我一直想說 麥克風還有這些就是財政的因為之後也是一些財政的部分那就都把它保留起來這樣子"},{"start":8735.565,"end":8751.392,"text":"我們來到台南的左製手工餐廳想要視乎這間餐廳財政沒有自廣的樣子所以就會變成這樣謝謝不是完全靠我們那種認識正面的"},{"start":8765.244,"end":8765.965,"text":"謝謝你不好意思講"},{"start":8799.777,"end":8816.632,"text":"那是..."},{"start":8821.153,"end":8821.173,"text":"誰啊"},{"start":8843.485,"end":8853.529,"text":"先不要讲谢谢"},{"start":8868.441,"end":8872.37,"text":"可是43號沒有提供口號 因為3號是口號 然後4號是"},{"start":8877.593,"end":8884.599,"text":"所以我們才必須要所以我們才所以我們才必須要不要說白了"},{"start":8901.192,"end":8912.622,"text":"你看 我們的第一項目就是實施手續的傳染藥物防疫科技消息這是它的版本 這是原版的版本原版"},{"start":8925.513,"end":8951.798,"text":"請問一下 要維持改制前的三峰下山嗎這已經很清楚 但是後面再有恰桑 回到後面再有恰桑這在恰桑嗎 如果還要回到恰桑就沒有問題好 你們再溝通一下都可以 好不好 就這樣比較快 待會反而比較快我們再談一會好 你們說恰桑不要進入恰桑的下山 原因是"},{"start":8953.719,"end":8955.667,"text":"因為所有的聚合體是小四的一切"},{"start":8962.464,"end":8971.849,"text":"我現在是要準備去公堂我是在回到當時說要插傘因為我們在83樓之七的那一樓我們已經進了是新的一樓"},{"start":8989.718,"end":9001.327,"text":"對不對 但是到了最後 事實上手並不穩我們的資料是有發過來的我們投資的命運是有道理的我們是有道理的後來接下來的資料是有道理的"},{"start":9010.114,"end":9010.334,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9028.581,"end":9036.847,"text":"你不是說有增加 但是實際上它是已經先減少了對啊然後再增加因為這樣是對的嗎"},{"start":9058.922,"end":9062.584,"text":"我們待會就直接討論好不好"},{"start":9087.81,"end":9088.473,"text":"來 請坐 我們不是一起聽"},{"start":9091.749,"end":9115.823,"text":"好報告聯席委員會我們繼續開會我補充說明一下其實我們剛剛討論昆城委員這個條文他第一次審查的時候他也是沒有來的對不對但我講我說如果是我來主持會議我們都盡量可以有現場到場我們都盡量保留大家的發言空間這樣法條的修正可以廣納各方的意見請大家諒解雖然大家會比較辛苦一點好不好但這是我們的原則我補充做一下說明好"},{"start":9116.383,"end":9136.722,"text":"我們現在進今天的最後一條是83條有關我們原住民朋友的部分好我們請這個看看我們各位人好請盧憲毅委員好謝謝主席那我們看到我們目前有六個三地三地鄉也就是以前的三地鄉現在的三地區分佈在我們新北市桃園市跟台中市跟高雄"},{"start":9137.543,"end":9160.376,"text":"結果我們可能本來很高興他們是在直轄市的範圍結果10年過去他們所受到的那個財政自由然後去綁架了他們完全沒有辦法進步也就是說我們有實際的數據來看如果剛才高進在跟我們的官員在說的時候他說少了10億然後再補了1億就少了9億可是呢我這邊的資料是如果就相對的人口"},{"start":9162.017,"end":9189.462,"text":"來說金峰鄉的稅率大概3億左右可是呢高雄市的桃園卻只有2億那馬下甚至不到1億他跟人口差不多的達人鄉差了3億左右所以這就是他們的財政之前沒有規劃好的關係所以今天以下的那個修法跟新增的部分可能有高金委員來這邊來代勞因為我時間的關係所以我要先行離開那就麻煩我們高金委員謝謝"},{"start":9192.32,"end":9211.429,"text":"好 謝謝盧縣議委員我們高清委員今天有提出相關的修正動議我們是不是請她說明一下高清委員有請應該都在你們桌上了吧桌上 桌上看一下 謝謝我們部長也有 對啊有啊 有好不好來 這裡來 妳先來吧 好不好"},{"start":9215.014,"end":9242.967,"text":"好 我來說明一下其實我們談到這個83條之三跟83條之七是兩個一併看的我先講一下由來再我們先講一下83條之三的部分那個之三的部分就是說原住民的自治區其實我們原住民在我們這塊土地上已經存在了6000年以上了我們實際上有一套的自治制度"},{"start":9243.567,"end":9268.798,"text":"即便是在日據時期的時候日本人針對原住民的特殊性仍然保持一定的自治制度然後接著我們按照憲法第十條第十二項的規定國家是應該要依照民族意願保障原住民族的地位及政治參與因為這樣所以在我們直轄市升格的時候只有原鄉地區我們的首長是屬於民選的"},{"start":9269.958,"end":9296.613,"text":"所以現在我們剛剛講到的有新北市烏來區桃園市的復興區台中市的和平區高雄市的茂林區高雄市的桃園區高雄市的納瑪夏區這兩個區我們的首長是民選的因此他自治的範圍是非常的清楚如果99年開始我們直轄市升格我們看到當時我們特別要求兩件事情"},{"start":9297.173,"end":9312.374,"text":"第一件事情就是升格了我們必須要維持直轄市原住民族三地區的自治地位自治地位我們在民選上面已經找回來了第二個就是我今天有修正動議"},{"start":9315.298,"end":9326.529,"text":"83-7要求維持直轄市原住民族地區的財政水準跟改制前相同我們看一下我們所謂的自治就應該要有選舉權跟財政權"},{"start":9328.911,"end":9355.097,"text":"但是呢83條之3在原住民區我們少了稅捐跟公共債務的財政事項所以因此第83條之3我們認為我們必須要再回復這兩個部分然後再來83條之7的部分你們手上應該都有看到這個印給大家的"},{"start":9355.797,"end":9358.664,"text":"就是我們的當時原來的條文是說"},{"start":9365.207,"end":9383.673,"text":"這個升格之後呢我們應該要維持以前原住民鄉的財政可是很遺憾的我們看到的是我們升格之後我們原住民區的財政減少了我跟大家報告一下新北市的烏來區99年度的時候我們還有3億"},{"start":9388.015,"end":9391.399,"text":"6,876萬可是到了104年我們減少了6,784萬桃園市的復興區我們以前有8億2千多萬104年的時候只有5億2千7百減少了2億"},{"start":9406.855,"end":9411.316,"text":"和平區呢 以前有5億1千多 104年只有2億5千多 減少了2億5千多高雄市是最離譜的 高雄市我們有三個鄉茂林區以前有1億 那現在只有9千 少了2千多萬"},{"start":9425.24,"end":9443.5,"text":"桃園區以前有5億 現在只有一億 減少了4億多南阿夏 以前有5億 減少了4億所以在高雄市來說 我想今天的部長應該很清楚知道高雄市三個區就將近減少了10億"},{"start":9445.001,"end":9460.071,"text":"所以我們看到直轄市升格以後並沒有給原住民鄉帶來了應該要有的合理的財政分配還有自治事項所以今天有非常多的我們六位的區長"},{"start":9461.192,"end":9476.204,"text":"一併的陳情給我們原住民的立法委員希望能夠在這個部分能夠找回我們自治區應該要有的財政那另外呢我在一月份的時候也邀請我們的財政部"},{"start":9477.285,"end":9506.144,"text":"能夠針對我提的這個部分在三個月之內要提出相關的言議那所以當他們提出相關的言議之後呢所以我看了我今天又提了修正動議修正動議的第83條之7我修我把他們給我的建議文字放在我們的第二項第二第二款第三款那這個部分我也請在場的委員參酌一下那最後我要講的是"},{"start":9507.405,"end":9517.338,"text":"原鄉地区不应该因为直辖市的升格而失去了应该要有的原住民的自治权限以及我们的财政分配"},{"start":9524.192,"end":9544.061,"text":"好 謝謝高金素美委員的這個說明我跟大家補充報告一下在114年1月13號也就是我們上一次討論地方製作法的時候當初的那個協商的內容是這個有關於財政權的部分就是山地鄉財政權的部分這個我們那時候要要求內政部跟財政部要提出相關的報告"},{"start":9544.801,"end":9571.216,"text":"那現在應該有一些資料的準備所以我們請內政部跟財政部分別做出一下補充說明謝謝來請財政部主席 各位委員謝謝高進委員剛才提供的資料那這個這邊的資料應該是指的是稅出啦那當時的條文是講的是說不能低於就是說指甲式改制前各該三地鄉前三年度的稅客收入不是稅出"},{"start":9572.196,"end":9598.888,"text":"那就我們目前掌握的資料現在就是這幾個這個園民區那就是大部分都有增加那污染是增加的比較少比較少但是像高雄台中這些都有一個大幅度的一個增加那這個會後我們待會會再發給大家這是第一點你現在就發給大家好不好發給大家謝謝那另外一點就是"},{"start":9601.23,"end":9622.708,"text":"對原民區的委員的提案的想法我們可以理解基本上要爭取原民區相關的裁員假定這個案子要照高經委員的這樣的一個臨時修正動議朝修正83條之7的方向來做的話"},{"start":9623.729,"end":9638.825,"text":"那我是建議呢那這個其他委員提案修正的83條之383條之9之10之11這4條呢因為這4條就是如果我是建議不要討論就不討論那因為為什麼因為會重複會有重複補助的問題如果你要"},{"start":9646.272,"end":9674.134,"text":"修正83條之一之七然後呢又要把那個稅捐跟這個這個這個在債務那部分拉進去的話就會有重複補助的問題所以我這是第一個建議如果這個方向是各位委員如果是可以支持的話那麼我就在就這個條文83條之七這條文的內容那我再做一個進一步的說明我不知道各位是不是"},{"start":9676.144,"end":9700.773,"text":"可以支持這樣的一個方向也就是說我們就處理83條之七但是呢83條之三83條之九之十之十一就不予討論我是同意的但是你必須要給我保證就是說在83條之七的這些文字裡面它是全部都可以包含它可以涵蓋嘛"},{"start":9702.393,"end":9717.514,"text":"來 財政部好 那這個83條之7的這一部分有幾個地方我要提醒一下就是說在增訂的這第三款裡面那個頭的地方一定要寫到當年度啦當年度一定要加"},{"start":9718.413,"end":9736.549,"text":"那就是第三款第三款慈霞市之中央統籌分配稅款實際分配金額高於通知分配數那麼慈霞市應以次一年度按實際增加比例等等那麼前面加一個當年度來知道說是哪一個年度這是第一個"},{"start":9736.909,"end":9759.152,"text":"直轄市之中央 當年度 直轄市 當年度 OK那另外一個就是說這邊就講說在第三行就是說這個按增加的比例 按增加比例增加對各該3地原住民的補助也就是說呢他就是硬性的規定一定要增加"},{"start":9759.873,"end":9789.033,"text":"但是我就覺得就是說石匣市跟各園民區之間的關係還是要整體的去考量整體去考量那比如說有一些這個市權那麼已經有轉由石匣市在做石匣市在做比如說像這個像這個高雄的這些幼兒園那就已經市府已經在承接了那像桃園它的道路的改善計畫也是由這個市府來承接"},{"start":9789.933,"end":9814.545,"text":"那另外還有他們也有對這個園民區有其他的補助現在補助所以這個可能還是要通盤去考量不要說要硬性的就是可以增加硬性可以增加所以我們是建議說著增著增對各該山地園民區之補助這是第二點說明那第三點就是第二項的部分"},{"start":9816.146,"end":9835.299,"text":"這邊修正說由中央財政主管機關定資那因為地治法是一個地方自治的條例地方自治的一個法律所以這個相關的補助事項那麼現行條文是由直轄市恰桑山地原住民區定資"},{"start":9836.34,"end":9860.417,"text":"所以這個不涉及中央,有中央涉入啦中央不適宜涉入啦這要由直轄市跟原民區來駕商啦這個由他們來協商但是我們財政部當然會就財源這部分會從旁來協助啦從旁來協助那以上簡單的補充說明,謝謝"},{"start":9863.178,"end":9884.106,"text":"市長 您剛剛有一些文字的修正 我大概是沒有意見但是對於第二項的部分 中央財政主管機關訂正我也同意您剛剛說的地方制度法但是我們可不可以把洽商拿掉然後在第83條之7就保障原鄉的六個區"},{"start":9885.646,"end":9914.015,"text":"因為為什麼在原條文裡面大家看一下原條文的83條之七三地原住民區實施自治所需的財源由直轄市依下列因素予以籌設補助並且要維持改制前各該三地相統籌分配財源的水準我們縱使在以前的條文裡面的這個第一項裡面有這樣但是呢在最後一項也是由恰商"},{"start":9914.975,"end":9941.801,"text":"所以因此我們本來是很信任地方政府的但是你要清楚知道地方政府的區長跟市長他們的確是會有一些些的這個要洽商原鄉地區的確是沒有辦法所以我們如果是在第83條之七我剛剛說的第二款第三款裡面都有被保障到的話我們是不是後面就不要再洽商了"},{"start":9942.799,"end":9956.519,"text":"然後我們的財政部以後可以怎麼樣做一個來監督這個地方政府有沒有實際上應該要有給原鄉地區的這些財政分配"},{"start":9958.047,"end":9976.662,"text":"跟委員報告我要問的就是這個請你很直白的回答第二款這部分就是本來是按照那個按照他的這個稅客收入來平均數來算嘛對不對現在你們就是可以大聲一點你的麥克風我們是還聽不太清楚對謝謝"},{"start":9981.086,"end":9996.982,"text":"那麼第二款 第二款那麼委員的建議是改為用稅出預總預算稅出的平均率來算那這一部分我們原則尊重不過部分就是有一些縣市有一些縣市有講到說那麼這個"},{"start":9999.761,"end":10014.198,"text":"有一些呢是比如說它直轄市對各各園民區呢它有很多種補助包括縣統籌分配稅款還有呢計劃型補助款還有其他的協助的裁員"},{"start":10015.64,"end":10043.196,"text":"那另外有一些職權已經由市府來承擔所以他們是建議說設算的基礎如果沒有排除這些項目的話就會造成重複補助的問題這一部分我就覺得他們講的也有道理所以希望職小市的意見也能夠納入參酌所以第二款原則上這個文字我們是沒有意見的 是尊重的"},{"start":10044.156,"end":10068.344,"text":"但是第三款剛才我也報告過就是說不要用增加著增啦就是還是要考慮到讓他們實際的這個指甲市跟各原民區之間的財政的狀況由他們去協商由他們協商因為他們有很多的補助款我們也搞不清楚我們不要說一定要增加一定要增加他搞不好已經早就給他很多了對不對"},{"start":10069.344,"end":10095.776,"text":"而且他很多的業務他已經承擔下來了所以這一部分我是講說不要直接講說增加是著真另外我是覺得地治法中央財政組織不予介入真的是不予介入這個一定要由這個直轄市跟這個園民區來協商但是我剛才也講過就是說在協商過程當中我們財政部可以從旁可以盡量來協助"},{"start":10097.267,"end":10126.179,"text":"怎麼樣從旁協助因為我現在看到的是你們給我的書面報告是新北無意見嘛桃園希望能夠調整至8億然後區公所是也同樣支持修正這個83條高雄的茂林區也說要增加那唯一講的是這個高雄市政府可能有比較多的意見"},{"start":10127.419,"end":10137.25,"text":"所以其實呢各地方好像都都比較沒有意見修這個所以你剛剛說那個佐徵的部分我可以再問清楚佐徵一塊錢也是徵嘛對不對對嘛所以你是保留這個區長跟跟直轄市的這個首長洽商"},{"start":10148.851,"end":10157.163,"text":"等一下好謝謝我們因為剛剛吳世耀委員舉手然後曾天才委員然後我們再請這個財務部這邊再做詳細說明可以嗎好吳世耀委員"},{"start":10159.059,"end":10182.915,"text":"好謝謝主席因為今天是內政跟司法聯席所以我來這邊參與這個修法我想先確認一下資訊的來源因為手上有兩頁資料既然這一83條不管是之三之八之七呀到之八之十一都是要討論都是涉及了對於原鄉的照顧有沒有變少"},{"start":10183.735,"end":10211.145,"text":"因為直轄市的改制這件事情的前提要釐清如果真的是有資源的減少當然我們想辦法來補強這我們努力來討論但這有兩份資料這一份是高金委員的資料嗎好這委員提供好提案委員的資料那這一份是剛剛財政部拿來的嘛對不對所以我想確認一下因為我剛我有聽到次郎這邊說到說其實這個法的規範"},{"start":10213.205,"end":10237.811,"text":"這個補助它是用不得低於說客收入然後你們財政部提供的這個資訊是除了自治財源的補助還有其他的補助然後加總起來如果先看高金委員提案委員的這個資料看起來104年比99年相比看起來確實烏來、復興、和平、茂林、桃園跟納馬巷"},{"start":10239.171,"end":10255.798,"text":"感觉都减少了少则两千五百多万多则四亿这是看到提案委员的资料那当然就让我觉得哇那这样真的是不要亏待原乡那现在看到你们财政部的这一我刚刚按计算机一直在算"},{"start":10257.284,"end":10283.939,"text":"我看到的是从一样的比较基础但你们这是104跟112资料是到112如果112年相减于104年的补助对于新北的乌来区是增加3641万那对于桃园市复兴区是减少的是六个里面唯一减少减少大概7000万然后台中和平区呢自治财源加其他补助增加是9007万"},{"start":10285.66,"end":10312.47,"text":"然後高雄茂林區加總起來增加是三八七三萬那桃園區增加三五六八萬然後那馬下區增加了六百五十九萬如果我沒有算錯的話就說兩個資料有很大解讀的落差所以這個我要確認一下到底對於原鄉的照顧有沒有因為改制而實質我們說實質當然他可能在法的規範可能是減少但是你們會想方設法例去指責是照顧原鄉嗎"},{"start":10313.57,"end":10335.227,"text":"辖區內的園鄉想辦法用其他補助來補強它我們最在乎的對於園鄉的實質的各類的補助到底是哪一個數字是我們討論這個法案要參酌的這是第一件事情因為這個前提確認了我們才能夠進一步來釐清說是不是要修法來協助好這是第一個所以我看到資訊是有很大的落差我想要釐清"},{"start":10336.55,"end":10359.653,"text":"第二個就是說 畢竟這是直轄市的財政負擔啦所以說直轄市政府的意見到底有沒有一致因為我們不能抗人家之慨我們不能修了法 結果直轄市最後做不到所以第二個 直轄市的意見到底是什麼有沒有共識"},{"start":10361.092,"end":10385.371,"text":"第三件事情是你剛剛講的話就像修裁劃法一樣嘛你要從中央增加對地方的預算的預注但是市權有沒有統一有些事情因為直轄市改制之後你剛剛講到高雄的例子有一些誘託的執行是後來就回收到直轄市政府高雄市政府來執行所以市權的統一會"},{"start":10388.619,"end":10393.71,"text":"攸關財政的挹注,有些事情已經市政府一旦亂做了,如果這樣這個衛生這個項目就硬東西"},{"start":10397.287,"end":10424.781,"text":"不好似曾經有去做所以我們不能說再一次財政收支劃分法那個模式跟不可能是一樣你市權沒有統一只是增加預算所以說三個前提第一個預算的增加對於原鄉到底是增加或減少這個數字是我們討論這個法案的前提我要釐清第二個各個職場市政府的意見有沒有整合有沒有共識第三個市權的統一的這個部分可能還是要在細部的討論"},{"start":10426.182,"end":10444.939,"text":"這是我提出來的三個疑問好 謝謝我可以先回答一些第一個這個資料的差異因為高進委員的資料應該是以稅出作為邏輯然後財政部的資料是稅入那現在高進委員修正綜藝版本是要把因為現行條文是用稅入作為母體那高進委員提提稅出"},{"start":10445.279,"end":10472.93,"text":"那沒關係我覺得這一點只要大家有溝通好有一致的平台就OK那第二個各縣政府因為我們之前有要求財政部提報告那現在看起來是都可以接受我目前沒有我剛剛聽高清委員說是沒有沒有反沒有明確反對的意見就是沒有意見的站比較多的多數好沒關係我們請鄭天才委員這個在在座然後我們再請財政部做說明謝謝好這個從剛才的一個會有這樣的一個質疑最主要就是說"},{"start":10474.415,"end":10501.974,"text":"財政部的這個資料啊沒有把99年度你沒有把99年度的資料顯現出來就會讓這個相關的委員會覺得說從104104到112有不一樣啊 還好啊如果你去跟99年度所以啊所以99年度的部分"},{"start":10503.655,"end":10524.221,"text":"確實如果是比較多很多去做一個比較的話就會覺得說確實是要去修正或者是第一個第二個不要一直去強調不要去強調說高雄市有承擔了一部分這業務因為這個修了之後他會還給他"},{"start":10526.392,"end":10545.822,"text":"他會還給他會還給高雄市本來已經做的啊你這個修正之後啊既然你的錢錢增加了他會還給他啊所以這個部分是一個我啊這個一個必然的一個可能性很大啊所以這個部分不必太強調說他現在承接的什麼業務啊因為他"},{"start":10546.755,"end":10564.082,"text":"未來這個變化是怎麼樣市長也會改也會換所以這個部分是我們是從制度面來去解決這個確實是99年度跟現在確實有這樣的很大的落差以上"},{"start":10567.682,"end":10587.203,"text":"對 我再補充一下 因為您剛剛我們看了 因為這個資料是剛剛給我們的我們再看了一下 發現你並不是從99年 你是從104年所以你升格之後 然後你告訴我是有增加現在我再告訴你 我們以前99年 喇嘛下是5億"},{"start":10588.922,"end":10609.978,"text":"我們是5億然後呢你現在說多了8000他還是1.9億啊那4億減少4億裡面的1.9億他還是減少啊市長你不能夠這樣子說啊所以呢重點就是呢我們要改一下就是說在制度上怎麼樣來保障我們這六個區我剛一直講到這個六個區是民選的首長"},{"start":10615.262,"end":10634.587,"text":"他跟其他直轄市升格之後他去派任的首長不一樣他有民權表示他有自治的權限他既然是民選的首長有自治權限他就應該要給他應該要有的財政的保障還沒升格就那麼多錢了升格之後才反而減少"},{"start":10636.047,"end":10651.15,"text":"那你的財政收支花生法也已經增加了然後呢照理說你本來就是應該要增加那我們怎麼樣在制度上面能夠來保障這六個區這是我們今天協商最重要的這個要談的事情好不好謝謝"},{"start":10654.841,"end":10681.028,"text":"好 我們全部做統一回應好不好 謝謝剛才委員提到就是資訊落差的問題我這邊要解釋一下那高金委員提供的這個資料是真的是稅出啦是稅出的資料那我們條文是說你不能不得低於改這個這個前三年"},{"start":10685.546,"end":10700.874,"text":"就不得低於不得低於各該三體項前三年度的稅客收入的平均數所以我們那個資料是是稅客收入來算的這是第一個我們是按照法令的規定來算的這是第一個第二個我們為什麼沒有"},{"start":10702.31,"end":10721.28,"text":"如果要99年的資料當然我們可以找啦但是我們這個修法是103年開始修的所以我們才會從104年開始列舉開始列舉說到底它到底增加多少或者是減少多少這個都清清楚楚這個東西都是數字在說話啦數字在說話這是第二點"},{"start":10725.282,"end":10752.607,"text":"那當然就是剛才講就是說有一些市權要統一的事情那我覺得真的我覺得這蠻重要的因為為什麼因為他們現在石橋市跟園民區已經有在協商一直都有在協商當然就是說園民區也許可能不太滿意但是一直都有在協商那我要講就是說我們要給多少當然市權跟財權一定要並同考量就像我們財"},{"start":10753.848,"end":10761.601,"text":"這個裁判法一樣嘛就是裁選跟這個試選要並同來考量所以這是第三點說明那"},{"start":10765.151,"end":10788.207,"text":"那基本上我們是希望就是說能夠盡量來協助園民鄉在這個大家可以有共識的範圍內盡量協助園民鄉能夠取得足夠的財源來建設但是我們希望就是能夠跟直轄市之間那麼由他們跟直轄市之間要有一個溝通的管道由他們來協商"},{"start":10790.208,"end":10818.7,"text":"但是我們現在也給他一個多的一個機制也就是說你這個我們的時增數時增數就是我們的統合分稅款如果增加的話那麼我們直轄市就要考量這個因素那麼著針對這個園民區的這個補助這是一個我覺得這個把這個因素納進去如果放在法裡面那麼將來呢那麼他在執行的時候就有比較法律依據了"},{"start":10820.508,"end":10826.409,"text":"所以我的修正動力條文是OK的嗎是不是你只是說做文字的修正嗎"},{"start":10828.632,"end":10854.718,"text":"OK啊 沒問題啊我們到目前為止當然一些細節一些資料大家還要再做溝通這沒有問題但大概兩個方向嘛第一個方向是大概就只修83條之7對不對這是沒有問題的對不對 財政部我們行政端我就第三款就是剛才我講過就第三款的我再重複一遍就是當年度就是在頭的地方加一個當年度"},{"start":10855.68,"end":10875.279,"text":"那另外增加就寫濁增 叫濁增那另外那個最後第二項還是有資亞市恰桑山地原住民區來訂定這是這個那至於剛才講說稅出那一部分我不知道內政部這邊有沒有意見好 盧部長"},{"start":10880.551,"end":10895.349,"text":"謝謝因為地制法的主管機關是內政部為主所以我們在這個條文裡面寫由中央財政主管機關來定制是一個很奇怪的法律再來就是剛剛有提到就是"},{"start":10896.59,"end":10917.802,"text":"我們在去年的時候已經先就我們若干委員尤其是山地或平地原住民所提的修法的部分那時候還沒有出現高經委員所提的修正動議雖然每一個區公所山地原住民區的區公所都表示無意見或支持"},{"start":10918.382,"end":10938.182,"text":"但是直轄市政府的態度都是保留啦我這邊有一個記錄在這邊包括新北市、桃園市、台中市跟高雄市那大部分所提到的意見那個如果跟財政有關的話剛剛那個次長已經跟各位回應我想大部分市政府的意見會覺得說如果說他們已經在原來的稅客的收入"},{"start":10938.803,"end":10965.869,"text":"已經有補助的話那未來在由市政府的設算裡面恐怕是不要用重複補助為原則啦那這個就沒有在這個條文的文字裡面做修正所以我們會建議說如果要修正這個以這個高金素美委員的這個版本的話第一個就是不能只有寫中央財政主管機關那個縣市政府還是要市政府啦因為都是直轄市"},{"start":10967.729,"end":10986.038,"text":"直轄市還是要列進去然後再來就是說不管是統籌分配款或者是縣市政府的計劃補助款等等這些不能夠重複補助為原則否則這樣子對其他的一個區公所可能會造成一個排擠的效應 謝謝好還有沒有委員要補充的來 吳世耀委員"},{"start":11002.906,"end":11008.518,"text":"想當然而我們六個原鄉的這個區公所當然希望能夠增加"},{"start":11009.728,"end":11028.081,"text":"這也是為什麼原住民的委員來協助提案但畢竟這個裁員本身在做分配在做事權的處理以及分工然後乃至於這個補助不能重複這個主事者還是直轄市"},{"start":11029.318,"end":11057.375,"text":"所以說如果說這個直轄市的意見如果剛剛劉部長所說的從新北桃園台中跟高雄的直轄市都有所保留意見的話那是不是要再跟直轄市政府再溝通一下是不是這樣否則到時候直轄市跳起來我們立法委員休一休直轄市又跳起來來找我們算賬這個是這樣子是是因為我等一下我是在問我是在問那個劉部長這邊"},{"start":11064.631,"end":11082.53,"text":"我想針對吳委員的部分我提一下新北市政府某一項意見按照現行財化法的規定部分稅客收入由縣統籌分配與鄉鎮市如果山地原住民區准用該法規定該部分直轄市無法適用請並考量"},{"start":11083.631,"end":11105.757,"text":"還有就是講到園民區如果有公共債務的權限它的未償餘額比例的設計應該考慮對直轄市公共債務未償比例的影響也並同考量修正公共債務法這個是我們在去年問的時候但是我還是一再強調就是針對高金委員所提的部分我們還沒有機會去問直轄市的市政府"},{"start":11106.903,"end":11127.419,"text":"所以我建議你們應當要去針對因為高金委員的提案其實剛剛財政部也釋出相當的這個彈性但是為了確保這個精確還是要針對新的版本要跟指甲市政府溝通好比較好而且這正是剛剛劉部長的回答也是我自己的"},{"start":11128.019,"end":11147.019,"text":"这个修法的尝试性给我的经验就是说我们修了地质法地质法前一法动选生的一定会有譬如说财化法的部分财政相关或者是刚刚讲公债法的部分因为我们现在在地质法里面增加83条之3"},{"start":11148.297,"end":11166.243,"text":"像好幾個委員的版本還增加這個債務的部分所以說公債法的一併的檢討然後跟地方稅法通則對不對這跟地方稅法通則相關還有地方稅法有關鄉鎮市的規定恐怕都要一併去檢視啦"},{"start":11168.224,"end":11186.513,"text":"刚刚那个刘部长讲到的地方政府刚刚那是桃园还是谁的意见就提到公债的部分所以就我的经验上来讲我觉得地方税法通则也好然后这个公债法相关的部分乃至于跟财务法有没有关系我不知道这要再确认一下"},{"start":11188.032,"end":11205.759,"text":"那這個都應當配套要思考周延會更好所以我是建議內政部應當跟紫霞市針對新的委員的新的版本如果做得到紫霞市也OK的話那當然我們都支持但是要跟紫霞市政府獲得比較好的共識再來處理好謝謝我們鄭天才委員先好不好然後高金委員因為要看我們條文怎麼樣去修正"},{"start":11215.453,"end":11241.878,"text":"因為你說直接一定要去跟執行市政府他當然希望維持現行條文這是必然的那我們既然已經發現這個這個修法的當時修法的所有的一個切施怎麼樣去做一個彌補何況如果我們通過的第二項是維持現行的第二項那就不用擔心了"},{"start":11242.885,"end":11270.434,"text":"因為還是由直轄市恰商山地原住民7所以這個部分我們是不是能夠往前走一步這個而且這個剛才財政部也提到那個第三款也要改為走濁增就很有彈性這個濁增如果大家如果通過的是濁增而且第二項也是恰商對不對"},{"start":11271.491,"end":11289.645,"text":"就就就沒有什麼太太多的異議啊總是要往前啊才有這個山地原住民期才有一個協商的一個一個機會啊都是恰商然後又著真嗎啊是不是我是建議啊能夠朝這個往前邁進一步啊謝謝"},{"start":11298.547,"end":11310.898,"text":"好 我再說明一下事實上今天我的再修正動議修正動議不是平白無故生出來的我這邊先要跟市要委員說一下這個部分是經過1月13號我們在這裡的會議結論這個會議結論是希望我們的財政部三個月之內檢討評估並且向我"},{"start":11320.806,"end":11347.948,"text":"在委員會提出報告那我手上這份報告呢也是財政部跟地方政府去談的所以不是沒有去跟地方政府談過所以呢我今天的修正動議的版本就是按照我們財政部提供給我的就是說研議修正地制法第83條之七第一項第二款的規定明定直轄市依照直轄市"},{"start":11349.329,"end":11377.151,"text":"改制前各該三地鄉前三年度的總預算稅出平均數扣除中央或直轄市額外補助的平均數並考量部分市權已由直轄市負責予以設算補助園民區以避免重複補助問題然後考量今年稅收成長因素亦可研議明定中央統籌稅款實際分配竟然高於通知分配"},{"start":11377.811,"end":11402.789,"text":"述實直轄市應該要在次一年度按照它的增加比率著針對園民區的補助所以我今天的修正動議是完全按照財政部給我的意見剛剛部長的意見我也沒有意見就是我們希望把遊戲規則定起來然後地方政府或者是中央主管機關或者是會同中央財政主管機關一起來洽商我都同意"},{"start":11405.771,"end":11419.696,"text":"好不好所以我必須要講今天的修正動議那麼剛剛講了剛剛那個次長也說了如果我們的修83條之7的話前面之3就可以不要處理了所以就都在這裡處理了以上補充謝謝"},{"start":11423.12,"end":11452.284,"text":"好 我們請部長做最後一次回應然後我們要先下一個小的 次長對不起 次長再做一次回應我們下個結論好不好這個 謝謝各位委員的指教那這個案子其實我們真的有邀請這個直轄市還有園民區來開會啦那直轄市的意見是這樣子直轄市剛才新北市那部分那麼部長也已經有講了他是有他說要並同考量修正公債法但是因為我們現在83條43已經不修了嘛"},{"start":11452.944,"end":11469.612,"text":"所以就沒有這個問題所以我們是把它歸類不反對當時我們是這樣認定那桃園市沒有表達意見沒有表達反對的意見那台中市他是講到說不能重複"},{"start":11471.293,"end":11489.98,"text":"就是剛才我講的不能重複就是說不能又補助然後又把稅簽那些都拿進來他講說不能重複那高雄市呢他說這個不納入就是說這個比照延民區比照鄉鎮市的這個在線不納入這個直轄市的在線"},{"start":11490.785,"end":11510.379,"text":"那這個部分也是因為83條13也不處理的嘛所以沒有這個問題那沒有關係那我想為了慎重起見我是想說我們是不是容許我們再邀集他們再來再確認一次啦在我覺得這樣大家好因為會涉及到他們的"},{"start":11511.687,"end":11533.183,"text":"我們給他們看一下如果可以的話因為今天已經在朝野協商了對不對今天已經在協商了然後呢這個也是你們財政部給的意見所以你的意思是說你現在給的意見地方政府沒有討論嗎"},{"start":11538.479,"end":11551.959,"text":"不是 當時他們開會的時候其實財政部你們就已經告訴地方政府是有這個方向了嘛對啊 所以他們都說沒有意見啊然後你們擔心的那個債務的部分也已經沒有不處理啦"},{"start":11565.802,"end":11586.474,"text":"就看我们如果啊财政部次长的修正的文字啊高金委员如果能够接受的话真的真的没有影响啊因为最主要是第一个他说要着真啊第二个如果还是维持第二项也是恰伤啊"},{"start":11587.601,"end":11608.735,"text":"所以大家就往前一步因為我並沒有看到所謂財政部給高金委員的報告然後現在跟你們一樣我現在看到了這樣但我看到他的評估報告的內容多數的意見都有提到"},{"start":11609.81,"end":11631.378,"text":"不可以重複補助這個要確認所以條文上怎麼去處理他呢而且要綜合檢討要洽商原住民區的檢討補助事宜然後我現在非常RAF的看我看到的不管是地方財政機關的意見所謂地方財政機關包括"},{"start":11632.523,"end":11653.257,"text":"直辖市的包括原乡的我看到的一件事还没有那么确认那主席我是向建议就是说因为今天你还有很多条文就是要下一次再讨论那为求周延就是让他们再去因为今天确实是八七条之七是现在才看到高金委员的版本"},{"start":11653.937,"end":11676.105,"text":"那慰求周圓就下一次你們很快的去處理還排就可以確認啦我覺得這樣比較好因為沒有因為整個還是整個法今天沒有需要說哪一條就先確認嘛好不好請主席做這樣的裁決我覺得周圓是很重要我們confirm清楚confirm清楚我非常擔心指教士最後又跳出來說這個版本跟當初我們研析的時候的版本的內容不盡相同我覺得這樣不行"},{"start":11681.047,"end":11703.103,"text":"好 謝謝吳司長委員那這樣子好不好因為我們今天這個地質法我們當然一次修你也不要說只送一部分然後就拖在那邊很煩所以我就希望我們委員會多走幾次然後能夠盡量達成共識那今天包含前面包含李昆城委員的條文副市長相關的條文都還沒有進入完全確定的狀態嘛那我們這一條至少有一點前進嘛第一我們做成有一個結論第一個叫做"},{"start":11703.863,"end":11730.021,"text":"原則上跟聯名財政權有關的部分我們就只修83條之7嘛其他我們就不予處理對不對那83條之7我們經過剛剛的討論之後也有一個委員會的初步意見那這樣的意見就請財政部、內政部立刻帶回去再做溝通跟資料的補充好不好那原則上我們下次在排案的時候我們就要有明確的方向這樣我們原名的議員這樣子的安排是可以的嗎"},{"start":11732.352,"end":11738.21,"text":"我原則上下一次盤就是兩個禮拜之後財務可以嗎他們會配合啊 OK"},{"start":11741.687,"end":11767.222,"text":"他們趕快去跟那個談但主席我有一個小小小小的修正就是說827條畢竟現在在整個討論的版本裡面有支3有支7有支8有支11當然我們剛剛在場的人的共識是說聚焦就827支783支783支3其他不處理我理解但是因為有其他提案的委員反正下一次會回來嘛這個結論倒是就是因為你剛說"},{"start":11768.464,"end":11780.4,"text":"希望保留一點彈性是不是因為我不知道其他委員提案委員不在因為董事委員有講交給高清委員處理抱歉我們一直以來在內政委員會就是有提案的委員如果我們在討論的時候他沒有來就不予處理了"},{"start":11783.524,"end":11807.636,"text":"那剛剛羅先生委員要離開的時候已經授權給我對授權給我所以呢今天我們就是83條之七好不好那我們也請83條之七財政部請你告訴我就是按照現在我依照財政部的文字的這個部分修正動力的部分再提一份如果按照這樣子的修正那個試算表給我看一下"},{"start":11808.516,"end":11834.164,"text":"好不好我們需要看一下到底改這個這個只是改直轄市跟沒有改直轄市原鄉的這個這個財政的狀況是如何好嗎謝謝好謝謝高經緯其實原則上我會稍微寬一點好但原則上有達成共識我們之前都會列入紀錄好下一次延續的時候我們就原則照這個原則那原則上我們針對原民的部分我們就以83條之7為母體那我要再提醒一下因為還有一個83條之12"},{"start":11835.504,"end":11851.018,"text":"好 這個也請原民跟這個相關的主管機關跟原民委員先做一個溝通因為他試射什麼值等 那更複雜那我是建議在下一次討論之前就先有一個共識這樣我們就可以節省很多時間 好不好好 那今天大概就先到這邊好 我們先簡單宣讀一下這個協商的結論"},{"start":11987.963,"end":12015.956,"text":"好報告聯席委員會我們現在宣讀協商結論33條的部分有一個委員會審查的初步版本好我們下次原則上我們讓他通過好但是下一次做最後的確認然後55、56條跟副市長有關我們保留78條我們也有一個初步的委員會初步討論的版本下一次我們要按照這個版本繼續做延商83條之7一樣按照這個初步保留的版本"},{"start":12016.836,"end":12031.207,"text":"繼續做延商83條12保留好吧那請問各位委員我們就照剛剛的協商結論通過請問有異議沒有好謝謝那我們討論事項所列議案均另定期繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"161568","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161568","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f0cec6285499ad120028de2cce2b28366aeec3a664eb535367dca8d0dceb804b035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:23:09 - 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續產種源資料網的功能頻繁包括我農業在農業絕招的部分我們的農業雲端大數據的平台你們根本沒有啟動第六個面對極端氣候長年困擾也就是本席現在念茲在茲的就是我大寮美容的這個"},{"start":68.056,"end":89.362,"text":"這個水道的空包彈這也是跟氣候有關只是你們不認定而已包括之前的美濃山林的這個小番茄的消長你們也不認定它是一個氣候變遷所帶來你們認為是病從海好那這個可是極端氣候確實是在發生那你怎麼提供濃油更好的方案呢而不是每次我們都該給你藥補助補助當然重要"},{"start":91.883,"end":116.219,"text":"但是重點是要防範於未來而不是年復一年的一直在處理同樣的問題啊好 包括這次您催生的國家植物表形體中心這個本席非常的肯定但是你們的做法需要調整好 從零關稅談起人民的恐慌在上週我們在強化社會及國土安全任性特別條例的時候本席就有提到 你面對市場的開放我們的容 序"},{"start":119.662,"end":138.585,"text":"應該要參考的是國際經驗跟先進技術先進技術當中除了本席一直倡議的這個基因定序這其實只是其中一項而已的精準的榮榆木的產業升級而且利用市場的力量結合政策工具重點是什麼"},{"start":139.625,"end":145.57,"text":"縮小我國內農漁牧產業跟國際的生產成本我這樣才能不怕國際競爭但是我們有沒有做到重點是縮小國內我農漁牧產產業的跟國際的生產成本我們農民是不怕苦的我是擔心被國外的低價農產品的價值破壞好 那目前"},{"start":162.244,"end":171.307,"text":"爬梳從本席做這個國會議員到現在爬梳我們現在農產業至今的競爭力的問題是什麼四項第一個農業部資源都投注強調在補助跟補貼補助當然重要他重點是即時性的來保障我的農民但是對於我小農為主的我們的台灣我們我國的農業競爭力的提升是非常有限的第二個問題"},{"start":188.573,"end":205.15,"text":"在推動重點我們都是在農民的硬體建設但是在農業的共用基礎設施跟農業的軟實力成效是有限什麼叫做硬體設備我們有沒有補助農機社的改善 有我們要補助人煉 有沒有 有"},{"start":206.451,"end":221.244,"text":"我們這次有抓了大量的經費補助溫室有沒有有這個都也該做但是我們現在應該要提升了就您這邊累積歷任的部長 主委所現在你要做的是公共的基礎建設跟農業軟實力那這是你應該要做的"},{"start":223.666,"end":249.697,"text":"第三個問題 推動智慧農業我們都是在農業的智慧化也就是說這個成功的案產相對有限喔本席長期主張就是你農業決策你部長跟你所有的一級署管機關的農業決策的智慧化跟精準化有啦 你們有做啦 部本部裡面的行政流程公文啦 財務啦 這你們有做然後放豬 我最在意的就是龍魚"},{"start":252.279,"end":277.24,"text":"會 合作社他們的競銷存肥料等甚至會計喔有沒有有沒有整合這樣的雲端平台沒有 我倡議了好久你們也來跟我講了好幾次到現在你們的結論是什麼還是讓各農會去做我講的我不需要農會我講明了 我也要替農會講話你不可以去取他的會籍資料"},{"start":278.061,"end":289.848,"text":"這他們最怕但是你其他的要讓你做農業決策的部分相關的訊息去識別化的時候你是可以做的你們現在農糧署我們現在這個署長署長上來我忘記你的名字 你叫什麼名陳俊延俊延署長他很認真"},{"start":304.459,"end":330.541,"text":"但是呢 我不曉得他帶來 他其實是很了解狀況的人利弊得失 農民的受傷 他都很清楚的啦在業是什麼是什麼 他都很清楚 不好意思但是到你這邊做了決策的時候 確實還是回歸現況好 第四個 農產 農產業研究的資源過於分散你們都給各大學去做資料分散 你給各大學 我也沒意見喔重點你不本部相關的農業相關的資訊 你有沒有統整起來"},{"start":333.283,"end":339.407,"text":"而且缺乏重點的經濟物種的核心計畫好來我們來看國際成功經驗這個成功經驗我們看愛爾蘭的乳流我們只會說人家好"},{"start":342.959,"end":368.556,"text":"這個他好在哪裡其實我們也在這個軌跡上在走啊他能夠你看左邊這是他們的愛爾蘭養牛聯合會國家支持的一個聯合會他能夠讓他的育種率提升一倍他的世代間隔縮短了60%所以講白了就是他的優生學嘛然後每次最最讓我這讓我看到的就是減少每公升牛奶碳排14%講白話一點他就是連牛的放屁他都在開始減少"},{"start":373.7,"end":384.835,"text":"好我們再看右下角這個挪威的鮭魚跟丹麥的豬隻他們兩個也是一樣這兩個是國際級的公司他們是國際級的公司才有辦法去做這樣的一個精準農業那我們是小農那怎麼辦政府啊"},{"start":389.04,"end":396.003,"text":"農業不要當農民的靠山啊不是只靠補貼 補貼我講是重要保障他及時的讓他不要趕快這個倒下去但是他的後面的升級的產業升級在哪裡他連鮭魚跟豬隻生活週期變短飼料成本降低這就是我們如何如何用我們開放市場之後我們國家的農 魚 牧怎麼去跟人家競爭嘛他減少飼料的 減少飼料的風險跟碳排也減少了嘛"},{"start":417.512,"end":442.866,"text":"好再來我們來看本國的現在的虛產種源資料網這個都在網上上游你們從1995年至今存來到這邊的就只有種源樣本保存跟交換功能第二個完全不具備運算跟資料加值什麼意思你那個叫做資料不叫做資訊而且僅有DNA的資料卻無表型體定"},{"start":444.227,"end":459.564,"text":"定序的應用好 再來我們來看奇異果我們大家說他很會行銷其實錯了他在從現在開始本席質詢的前20年他就已經完成了基因資料的收集"},{"start":459.744,"end":463.047,"text":"所以他才能在中國廉價的生產實現價值創造所以我們來看看我們能不能這樣做現況我們是總緣不管是農產 農畜魚都是這樣我們現況就是總緣保存查詢還沒有講到資安保護我們期待他精準決策"},{"start":478.163,"end":492.634,"text":"能夠透過基因體的資料庫跟AI的分析能夠達到四個目的 提高生產的效率跟收益能夠縮短育種週期第三個 農業碳排減量第四個 提高農民的專業性 進而我們能夠創新應用強化農業韌性 我們一直在講農業韌性啊在講什麼農業韌性 面對我的氣候變遷 抗逆境"},{"start":502.921,"end":522.673,"text":"抗病品系你像我的這個空包的這個水稻包括之前的那個小番茄的消長不都是氣候變遷嗎你們就是不承認它是天然災害啊但是我可以透過這樣子的一個基因體的資料庫跟AI的分析這個等一下在最後我再跟你做討論我的單位產量會提高促進糧食的安全DNA條碼的運用"},{"start":530.418,"end":558.877,"text":"GS1的導入這個本席在前幾次的質詢當中DNA條碼結合現在2027年全球要推動的GS1條碼的這個運用鑑別進口產品好我們現在缺乏農業雲端大數據這個榮邦學習啊這個再速發布這個已經很成熟的學習什麼意思它是一個分三次的AI訓練各單位可以在不分享原始資料這個很重要的前提下協作訓練"},{"start":560.698,"end":569.861,"text":"既可以保護各單位的私有資訊又可以訓練最佳的演算這個就是我們所有農業從業人員增進智慧農業現場的效益我們看左邊A農場 B農場 C農場這可以是私人的左邊的農事所拉進來在這個平台資料加密去識別化之後"},{"start":579.443,"end":591.418,"text":"我們的共同來訓練演算各自ABC包括龍市所各自可以去演算但是到這個平台的時候我政府可以運用龍市所包括你部本部的連結所以右邊這邊是我們期待的國家農業運大數據"},{"start":596.124,"end":610.203,"text":"因為國月國家雲大數據出來之後的背後是什麼是你的政策預算能夠精準你能夠智慧的決策那要從基礎做從最下面的右邊左下你生物樣本跟生物資訊這個是榮於"},{"start":612.986,"end":621.712,"text":"農林漁牧都是可以進來的再來往上基因分析資料的產出這是我們要進展的進而到上面我們的應用平台進而再到你的國家數據但是當到這應用平台的時候你的聯邦學習演算的模組就會出來你會上下交流進而產生下來的是我的回歸到農事單位我們的農研 我們農企 我們的農民是什麼生產效益提升 助益的糧食生產跟永續的發展"},{"start":641.866,"end":647.167,"text":"好我們再來看 極端氣候 長年困擾我們帶來的這個病毒素等的消長的狀況讓小番茄不再生長或有結果那你們農糧署判斷之後呢是病蟲害 不算天災無法啟動天災的補助所以呢變成是我們農業局提供肥料的補助好你來看這個稻米空包蛋你們有沒有 你們農事組有沒有開發抗病品種我要聽你們講話一下 你們有欸"},{"start":669.292,"end":674.237,"text":"你們有耶 部長你們有對於空包的這個 道明有抗病品種 抱歉你們沒有補給 農民都不知道 產銷班都不知道好 都沒有補給所以你也就只好 你一定要給我補助下去好 所以我們高雄的隧道也面臨這樣的災害問題好 講到這個 這個就是您的"},{"start":689.713,"end":710.126,"text":"您的前瞻了啦 這我要把你勾勒一下國家植物表形體中心好這個左邊這張圖你們幾乎非常的你應該非常的熟悉植物設計導向的快速精準綠種他應該做到最上位跟你的這個榮市所當你這個表形體當中可以做環境控制好我就以水稻為例我的抗旱"},{"start":711.167,"end":715.05,"text":"抗熱抗病蟲害就這三個就好了你的環境調控本來我本來8月我才會有有這個8月才會生長的我提早到6月了而且就是長得不好所以你這個環境抗逆境當中我可以變成高溫然後用這個病蟲害的這樣基因下去所產生的優生的品種這個基因在哪裡甚至所以你們現在的我要你調整的你這個做得很好但是你現在給學術單位"},{"start":741.187,"end":758.814,"text":"沒問題但是你要重點啊比如說今年我就做兩個我就做水稻水稻哪一個我有好幾個方案有的是表型體的有的是基因檢測的有的是什麼什麼的然後這些總和之後就是水稻所有的數據你整合在一塊你今年就做這一項就好了"},{"start":759.694,"end":761.797,"text":"你可以透徹到不行而且是符合台灣我們的這個環境變遷所以如果你能夠做這樣的統整給各學術單位而且你有很計畫性的今年我做哪幾個哪幾個品種"},{"start":775.071,"end":781.673,"text":"全部透徹的研究產生出來的再給農事所 人數有之後再回饋你這個表形體中心這樣才會讓我農民受益才能普及下去啊這邊會有什麼好處 您這個中心如果有好好的去做這樣的整合的話 數據的整合跟我農事總也結合 我的抗病基因跟風味基位共同選拔我利用基因體的選擇方法會提高風味 也許未來我的水稻有巴拉米"},{"start":801.53,"end":805.913,"text":"我以後我的水稻我就要有百拉米 就從這裡出來啊然後利用擴大優良品系及種苗的生產跟供應提出先期的檢測跟預警方案幫助農民降低風險啊你再怎麼補都補不到我農民的損失啊按照我們農民我投資了200萬 你再給我補助多少好 再來"},{"start":823.204,"end":845.317,"text":"這邊最後我具體的要求希望參考智慧農業國際成功的案例提出我國農漁畜農漁產的這個生產消費提升的方案不僅限於基因定序第二個提出國家植物表形體中心應該要應用活化的方案而且要針對主要的經濟物種制定資源集中的研究計畫再來這些"},{"start":847.578,"end":861.305,"text":"今年供地區的一起水稻栽損以最短暫的時間完成補助你先針對最後一項回答我就可以了你什麼時候補助我高雄地區的一起水稻栽損我講明的你不在這個質詢態度上給我講出來我就絕對不給你解凍 請說"},{"start":865.083,"end":879.02,"text":"有關於那個現在目前的水道是採用水道的一個保險那水道保險在當地的水道收工後一個月之內一定會完成整個的一個保險的一個設計講時間講時間好嗎我們農民現在要聽的就是時間"},{"start":883.561,"end":901.392,"text":"我們的農會現在要聽的就是時間就是他們當地收穫後一個月之內就會出來因為我們用保險的制度那也不用去勘栽我們跟地區地區性的產量如果他比地區的產量比過去五年還低的時候那相對的如果超過20%我們就理賠了"},{"start":903.193,"end":923.971,"text":"所以是我們市政府給你之後的一個月內再補是嗎是這個意思不是不需要地方政府給我們我們會針對當地的產量做調查那那個產量如果跟過去五年的去高去低的平均好那講時間好不好現在五月中現在已經五月快底了那你要多久一個月"},{"start":925.452,"end":943.112,"text":"兩個禮拜內收穫完一個月所以我在6月今天5月幾號今天5月18號那就是6月18號以前完成所有的補助喔我要跟委員講喔我是說收穫後一個月但是現在高雄地區現在還在收啊"},{"start":944.787,"end":964.329,"text":"收購完一個月部長 嘗試講人民聽得懂的話你只要講人民說 來各位農民我告訴你在6月30號以前你會完成補助在7月15號以前你會完成補助這才叫人民聽得懂的話中間的程序是我們的問題"},{"start":965.41,"end":992.161,"text":"是你要去督促各農漁會去公所那去這個我這個是政府這是你們自己去協調的我跟委員報告說人家你們聽得懂嗎現在目前我們不是用天然災害的救助的系統我們用農業保險農業保險第一個就是那個地區收穫完我們會計量它的產量有沒有比過去五年還低如果低20%的時候一個月之內我們就理賠"},{"start":994.502,"end":1009.21,"text":"好 所以時間大概就是等高雄區 因為不同的地區會不同的時間我們以高雄地區大概大概是六月底七月中之前七月中 七月十號以前這樣我們大家都聽到了我們所有農會 我們所有農民請到來都聽到七月中旬以前我們農業部會完成所有的補助好 謝謝 以上"},{"start":1019.068,"end":1031.358,"text":"這個要超過百分之二十的喔好要超過百分之二十喔所以如果民調好喔我們高雄的都民調好喔大樓米都要都民調好喔請到來喔你如果又不超過百分之二十我們是站不住的喔好 謝謝好謝謝林戴華委員那我們下一位請邱益銀委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":156,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時23分）有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，市場開放這件事情，對等關稅所引來的市場開放，確實讓我們農民驚慌不已，本席也認為在中長期來講，農業智慧化才能面對全球的挑戰，所以有幾個議題，第一個，對等關稅的衝擊；第二個，農產業競爭力提升的問題；第三個，在國際經驗的分享當中，我們是否可以再做一些借鏡？第四個，畜產種原資料網的功能貧乏；第五個，在農業決策的部分，農業雲端大數據平臺根本沒有啟動；第六個，面對極端氣候問題常年困擾，也就是本席現在念茲在茲的，就是大寮、美濃的水稻空包彈，這也是跟氣候有關，只是你們不認定而已。包括之前的美濃、杉林小番茄的瘋欉，你們也不認定它是氣候變遷所帶來的，你們認為是病蟲害，可是極端氣候確實在發生，你們要怎麼提供農友更好的方案呢？而不是每次我們都跟你們要補助，補助當然重要，但是重點是要防患於未然，而不是年復一年的一直在處理同樣的問題；第七個，包括這次您催生的國家植物表型體中心，這個本席非常的肯定，但是你們的作法需要調整。","從對等關稅談起已造成人民的恐慌，上週我們在審查「強化社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」的時候，本席就有提到，面對市場的開放，我們的農、畜產應該要參考國際經驗跟先進技術導入的精準農、漁、牧業的產業升級，而先進技術當中，除了本席一直倡議的基因定序，這其實只是其中一項而已。而且利用市場的力量結合政策工具，重點是什麼？縮小國內農、漁、牧產業跟國際的生產成本差距，這樣才能不怕國際競爭！但是我們有沒有做到？重點是縮小國內農、漁、牧產業跟國際的生產成本差距。我們農民是不怕苦的，我是擔心被國外低價農產品的價值破壞。","從本席做國會議員到現在，爬梳我們農產業至今競爭力提升的問題，有四項：第一個，農業部資源投入多強調在補助跟補貼，補助當然重要，它的重點是即時性的保障我們的農民，但是對於以小農為主的臺灣，我國農業競爭力提升卻是非常有限的。第二個，推動重點多數在農民的硬體建設，但是在農業的共用基礎設施跟農業軟實力提升上，成效是有限的。什麼叫做硬體設備？我們有沒有補助農機設的改善？有。我們有沒有補助冷鏈？有。我們這次有沒有花大量的經費補助溫室？有，這個也該做，但是我們現在應該要提升了。您這邊累積了歷任部長、主委的經驗後，現在你要做的是共用基礎設施跟農業軟實力的提升，這是你應該要做的。第三個，推動智慧農業的方案多數在農業自動化，也就是說，成功的案場數相對有限，本席長期主張的就是農業決策，你部長跟你所有一級主管機關的農業決策智慧化跟精準化，有啦！你們有做啦！部本部裡面的行政流程，像是公文、財務等等，這你們有做。然後我最在意的就是農漁會合作社，他們的進、銷、存、肥料等，甚至會計，有沒有整合這樣的雲端平臺？沒有！我倡議了好久，你們也來跟我講了好幾次，到現在你們的結論是什麼？還是讓各農會去做。我不需要農會，我講明了，我也要替農會講話，你不可以去取他的會籍資料，這是他們最怕的。但是其他要讓你做農業決策的部分，相關訊息去識別化之後，你是可以做的。現在的農糧署署長陳俊言很認真，他其實是很了解狀況的人，利弊得失、農民在想什麼，他都很清楚，連他們在意的是什麼，他都很清楚，但是不好意思，到你這邊做了決策之後，確實還是回歸現況。第四個，農產業研究資源過於分散，你們都給各大學去做，資料分散，你給各大學做，我也沒意見喔！重點是部本部相關的農業、相關的資訊有沒有統整起來？而且缺乏重點經濟物種核心計畫。","我們來看國際成功經驗──愛爾蘭的乳牛，我們只會說人家好，但好在哪裡？其實我們也在這個軌跡上在走，你看左邊，這是愛爾蘭養牛聯合會，是一個國家支持的聯合會，它能夠讓育種率提升一倍，世代間隔縮短了60%，講白了，就是它的優生學。然後最讓我在意的是，減少每公升牛奶碳排放14%，講白話一點，就是連牛放屁都在減少碳排。我們再看右下角，挪威的鮭魚跟丹麥的豬隻，他們兩個也是一樣，這兩個是國際級的公司，他們是國際級的公司才有辦法去做這樣的精準農業，但我們是小農，怎麼辦？要靠政府啊！我們的農業部要當農民的靠山啊！不是只靠補貼，補貼當然重要，可以及時保障他，讓他不要倒下去，但是他後面的產業升級在哪裡？人家把鮭魚跟豬隻的生活週期變短、飼料成本降低，這就是開放市場之後，我們國家的農、漁、牧要怎麼去跟人家競爭嘛！他減少飼料的風險，碳排也減少了嘛！","再來，我們來看本國的，現在的畜產種原資料網，這個在網站上都有，你們從1995年至今儲存到這邊的就只有種原樣本的保存跟交換功能。第二個，完全不具備運算跟資料加值的功能，什麼意思？就是你那個叫做資料，不叫做資訊，而且僅有DNA資料，卻無表形體定序的應用。再來，我們來看奇異果，大家都說它很會行銷，其實錯了！它是從現在開始本席質詢的前20年就已經完成了基因資料的收集，所以它才能在中國廉價生產下實現價值創造。","所以我們來看看我們能不能這樣做？現況方面，我們是種原，農、畜、漁都是這樣，我們的現況就是種原保存與查詢，還沒有講到資安保護喔！我們期待它精準決策，能夠透過基因體資料庫跟AI分析來達到四個目的：提高生產效率跟收益、能夠縮短育種週期、農業碳排減量、提高農民專業性，進而我們能夠創新應用，強化農業韌性。我們一直在講農業韌性，在講什麼農業韌性呢？面對氣候變遷，抗逆境、抗病品系育成，像我們空包的水稻，包括之前小番茄的瘋欉，不都是氣候變遷造成的嗎？你們就是不承認它是天然災害，但是我可以透過這樣子的基因體資料庫跟AI分析，這個等一下我最後再跟您做討論，我的單位產量會提高，促進糧食安全。DNA條碼運用，GS1的導入，這個本席在前幾次質詢當中就提到，DNA條碼結合2027年全球要推動的GS1條碼應用，鑑別進口產品。","我們現在缺乏農業雲端大數據平臺，「聯邦學習」在數發部，這個是已經很成熟的學習，什麼意思？它是一個分散式AI訓練架構，各單位可以在不分享原始資料的前提下協作訓練模型，這個很重要，既可以保護各單位的私有資訊，又可以訓練最佳演算模組，這個可供所有農業從業人員增進智慧農業現場效益。我們看左邊，有A農場、B農場、C農場，這可以是私人的，左邊的農試所拉進來，在這個平臺資料加密去識別化之後，我們共同來訓練演算模型，A、B、C，包括農試所可以各自去演算，但是到這個平臺的時候，我們政府可以運用農試所，包括你部本部的連結，所以右邊是我們期待的國家農業雲大數據，因為國家農業雲大數據出來之後，背後是什麼？是你的政策、預算能夠精準，你能夠智慧的決策，這要從基礎做，從左下的生物樣本跟生物資訊，這是農、林、漁、牧都可以進來的。再來往上到基因分析資料的產出，這是我們要進展的，進而到上面我們的應用平臺，進而再到你的國家數據。但是當到應用平臺的時候，你的聯邦學習的演算模組就會出來，會上下交流，進而產生下來回歸到農試單位、農研、農企業和農民的是什麼？是生產效益提升、助益糧食生產跟農業永續發展。","我們再來看，極端氣候長年困擾，帶來病毒素等「瘋欉」狀況，讓小番茄不再生長或有結果，農糧署判斷是病蟲害，不算天災，無法啟動天災補助，所以變成由農業局提供肥料補助。有關稻米空包彈，農試所有沒有開發抗病品種？我要替你們講一下話，你們有！你們有對於空包的稻米有開發抗病品種，但沒有普及，農民、產銷班都不知道，所以都沒有普及，請你一定要給我補助下去，高雄的水稻也面臨這樣的災害問題。","接著講到這個就是您的前瞻了。我要鼓勵你一下，就是國家植物表型體中心。左邊這張圖你應該非常熟悉，植物設計導向的快速精準育種，它應該跟農試所做到最上位，因為表型體可以做環境控制。我就以水稻為例，抗旱、抗熱、抗病蟲害這三個就好了，透過環境調控，本來8月才會生長的可以提早到6月，但長得不好，所以在環境抗逆境當中，可以抗高溫又抗病蟲害的優生品種基因在哪裡？現在我要你們調整，這個做得很好給學術單位沒問題，但重點是譬如今年就做兩個，例如水稻，有好幾個方案，有的是表型體的，有的是基因檢測的，有的是什麼、什麼的，這些總合之後就是把水稻所有的數據整合在一塊，你今年做這一項就好了，會透澈到不行而且符合臺灣的環境變遷。如果你能夠做這樣的統整給各學術單位，而且很有計畫性的規劃今年做哪幾個品種，然後全部透澈研究，產生出來的結果再給農試所，之後再回饋給表型體中心，這樣才會讓農民受益、才能普及下去。這樣會有什麼好處？這個中心如果有好好做這樣數據的整合，也跟農試所結合，抗病基因跟風味基因共同選拔，利用基因體的選擇方法會提高風味，也許未來水稻會有芭樂味，以後水稻有芭樂味就是因此而來，利用擴大優良品系及種苗的生產跟供應，提出先期的檢測跟預警方案，幫助農民降低風險。因為你再怎麼補都補不足農民的損失，農民投資了200萬，你才補助多少？","最後，我具體要求，希望參考智慧農業國際成功的案例，提出我國農、畜、漁產生產效益提升方案，不僅限於基因定序。第二個、提出國家植物表型體中心應該要應用活化的方案，而且要針對主要經濟物種制定資源集中的研究計畫。再來，今年高雄地區的一期水稻災損以最短暫的時間完成補助。你先針對最後一項回答我就可以了，什麼時候補助高雄地區的一期水稻災損？我講明，你不在這個質詢台上講出來，我就絕對不給你解凍。請說。"],["陳部長駿季：目前水稻是採用水稻保險，水稻保險在當地水稻收穫後一個月之內，一定會完成整個保險設計的給付。"],["林委員岱樺：講時間，好嗎？農民現在要聽的就是時間，農會現在要聽的就是時間。"],["陳部長駿季：一個月。當地收穫後一個月之內就會出來，因為我們是用保險的制度，也不用去勘災，如果地區性產量比過去五年還低，相對的，假如超過20%，我們就理賠，這是保險。"],["林委員岱樺：所以是市政府給你之後的一個月內再補，是嗎？是這個意思？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，不需要地方政府給我們，而是我們會針對當地的產量調查，如果產量低於過去五年趨高趨低的平均20%，一個月之內……"],["林委員岱樺：講時間，好不好？現在5月中、已經快5月底了，你要多久？一個月內？兩個禮拜內？"],["陳部長駿季：收穫完一個月。"],["林委員岱樺：好，一個月內，所以我在6月……今天5月幾號？"],["主席：5月18號。"],["林委員岱樺：今天5月18號，那就是6月18號以前完成所有的補助。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有！我要跟委員講，我是說收穫後一個月，但是高雄地區現在還在收，是收穫完一個月。"],["主席：收穫完後……"],["林委員岱樺：請部長嘗試講人民聽得懂的話。"],["陳部長駿季：我講得非常清楚。"],["林委員岱樺：你只要跟各位農民說：「我告訴你，在6月30號以前會完成補助」；或「在7月15號以前會完成補助」。這才叫人民聽得懂的話，中間的程序是你們的問題。要督促各農漁會、區公所、市政府，這是你們自己要去協調的。要講人民聽得懂的話！"],["陳部長駿季：目前我們不是用天然災害救助的系統，而是用農業保險。至於農業保險，第一個就是那個地區收穫完，我們會計量它的產量有沒有比過去五年還低，如果低於20%，一個月之內我們就理賠。"],["林委員岱樺：所以大概的時間呢？"],["陳部長駿季：就是等高雄區。因為不同的地區會不同的時間，以高雄地區的話……"],["林委員岱樺：我問大寮、美濃。"],["陳部長駿季：大概是6月底、7月中之前應該會理賠。"],["林委員岱樺：7月中、7月15號以前？好，這樣大家都聽到了，所有的農會、所有的稻農都聽到了。7月中旬以前農業部會完成所有的補助。謝謝，以上。"],["陳部長駿季：這個要超過20%的才有。"],["林委員岱樺：好，要超過20%，所以高雄的稻農聽好，大寮、美濃的稻農民聽好，如果沒有超過20%，是拿不到的！好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林岱樺委員。","下一位請邱議瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-13","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麻煩副秘書長 法務部政部長 政部長NCC主委 NCC主委代理主委 代理主委還有中華電信副總好"},{"start":34.505,"end":52.81,"text":"其實今天我們主要是談在這個簡訊就是霸團組織顯然是已經很精準的針對了地區發了這個相關的簡訊那這個簡訊到底有沒有違反相關的個資法那麼根據自由時報的報導"},{"start":54.81,"end":83.073,"text":"自由時報報導引述司法院說有違法可以提起救濟那司法院說近期各地進行的公職人員罷免案目前尚處於罷免選罷法規定的提議或連署階段民眾收到罷免連署簡訊可能涉及違反各自法那我想請問一下我們的副秘書長請問一下到底有沒有違反各自法"},{"start":93.04,"end":106.202,"text":"請說這個部分我們剛在報告中有說就是還是要看到看他的整個那個程序因為司法這個最後事實上是在那個尾端所以要看那個個案所呈現的這些狀況才能夠做就按照這個我這個解訊內容給你看啦"},{"start":107.52,"end":134.927,"text":"好 給你看 因為它這個是有它有鎖定區域嘛它不會到台北來讓我去憑證去去簽聯署書啊它也不會讓我去新店簽聯署書啊那它的發送是有鎖定在它的選區這樣有沒有違反各自法那個報告委員 剛才不管是哪一端 但是最後這個行為有沒有違反各自法"},{"start":136.892,"end":140.955,"text":"各自有被受到保護嗎?那自由時報是假新聞嗎?他說霸團簡訊可能涉嫌違法所以你現在不敢講了?"},{"start":162.628,"end":169.359,"text":"你不敢講 請問一下那個法務部正部長像這個行為有沒有違反各自法"},{"start":171.034,"end":192.343,"text":"這個行為有沒有 要就個案的認定那是個資法有沒有那個處罰是要違反第六條還有第十五條 第十六條 第十九條跟第二十條就是說對違反那個個資的因為個資的收集處理利用都有法定的一個嚴格的標準嘛那你違反的話 這個如果說有人違反的話"},{"start":195.004,"end":221.332,"text":"這個我的意思就是說他可以很精準的在這個區域裡面發送給這個區域的這個就是簡訊發送給這個區域的受眾那這沒有各自外洩的問題嗎就是我們就看個人資料的定義個人資料包括他的個人資料的定義好部長我要問那個自然人還有一些什麼比如說出生年日身分證號碼電話號碼等等"},{"start":224.153,"end":236.818,"text":"而以直接間接識別該個人的資料也就是說如果單純的一個電話號碼我們也沒辦法知道這個是誰的如果說那個簡訊說我某某麻煩你來支持這樣才有違反個資法這個就是很明確的個人資料"},{"start":243.8,"end":248.783,"text":"如果他只有一個單純電話去辨識這到底是誰的電話無法辨識他有沒有違反個資可能在這部分可能這要再往前去推是不是有沒有提供那部長我請問一下像這個案例因為民眾都很緊張那我們會針對這有沒有違反個資法來做調查嗎"},{"start":269.291,"end":284.916,"text":"只要有人來告訴告發那個訴訟人員228告訴我們就來查到底有沒有違反各自法好那我想請問一下因為像我是被罷免人我們很多委員是被罷免人那假使被罷免人這是罷團發送的嘛那假使被罷免人針對這個區域也發送這樣的簡訊就是說拜託你要出來投票要投不同意罷免請問一下"},{"start":297.859,"end":307.121,"text":"要不要辦所以我有很擔心的事啊因為現在都是辦藍不辦綠嘛所以我們擔心的是罷團這樣子都沒問題司法院也說看個案然後法務部也說看個案然後等到呢等到被罷免人也同樣的狀況也同樣的去買簡訊的時候那可能這不一樣嘛這不是說讓你去連署嘛就是拜託你投票啊請你投票不同意罷免啊哇 就有事了"},{"start":327.105,"end":328.528,"text":"因為你們的雙標是很厲害的啊這個如果各支法如果說這個街道檢修各支法的"},{"start":335.05,"end":357.411,"text":"的問題的話那是屬於接到簡訊的人接到簡訊的人他是被害人嘛對民眾就告發啦民眾怎麼沒有告發你看他還提供簡訊給大家對不對看看有沒有成立他怎麼樣的一個一個到底是怎麼個人資料的外洩的一個問題所以啊部長會不會雙標啊不會雙標啦這個"},{"start":360.83,"end":372.522,"text":"這個辦案本來就是依照證據來認定犯罪事實因為你們雙標很厲害啊沒有沒有 這個委員我們不能夠這樣直接就給他貼這個雙標這個我們要維持一個純淨的一個辦案空間有證據就辦嘛 那我們會辦與不辦之間在於你們嘛來 那個我想請問一下NCC因為有關於簡訊"},{"start":386.058,"end":393.525,"text":"集中在特殊條件這個是在簡訊這些商業行為非常普遍"},{"start":395.448,"end":412.573,"text":"譬如說 因為其實一般商業用得更廣啊比如說有些建商我做一個建案我就是要有些特殊的有些特殊我就是鎖定在這個區域的或者是呢比如說一些投資理財的當然投資理財詐騙簡訊最多嘛所以呢"},{"start":418.696,"end":439.094,"text":"現在我知道你們有一個防止詐騙 有關於這些簡訊 就是這些電信資料的管理的指引嘛有沒有 有嘛 對不對那 這個當然它原來的出發點是防止詐騙 因為詐騙行為太多所以你們這個指引請問一下上路了沒有"},{"start":440.896,"end":465.045,"text":"112年就上路了持續在修正當中商業簡訊如果有網址連結有電話號碼還有短碼部分我們都會來封阻除非他經過驗證符合正當實驗在指引裡面請問一下在指引裡面他如果去限定他的特殊條件我剛講他的特殊條件別說他必須我限定在桃園"},{"start":466.986,"end":494.559,"text":"地區我限定在台北市或台北市的哪幾個區域或者我限定在他比如說他有過投資行為類似這種商業化的這種簡訊請問一下如果在這些的就是販賣簡訊院就是幫企業去那個投放這簡訊這個在不在你們指引的這個管理的範圍裡面"},{"start":495.475,"end":514.752,"text":"不在但是在原來的我們地形化企業有要求還有個資法本身也有要求它是你要提供LBS服務必須要用戶同意才可以提供才可以提供對就是經過合法或使用者同意那我請問一下因為這個事件呢今天有那個什麼請問一下你們說呢"},{"start":519.318,"end":545.769,"text":"因為調查了解三家行動通信業者都沒有提供簡訊發送門號清單及基地台區域廣播技術LBS給簡訊代發業者就是說我們的三大電信業者都沒有提供那我請問一下這些簡訊代發業者的資料拿來的那就要問簡訊代發業者手上的資料其他公司是如何提供資料給他如何他可以把它歸類對不對"},{"start":547.199,"end":558.024,"text":"那就請到公司的資訊來源就不知道怎麼來源來來來我請中華電信喔因為他們是你的客戶嘛來是林副總是"},{"start":559.904,"end":582.701,"text":"因為你們是上游嘛中游就是這些簡訊代發業者所以你們沒有給他們他們資料哪來的怎麼生出來的其實他們的資料我們大概無從去了解無從要求無從理解不知道他怎麼來的"},{"start":583.722,"end":605.478,"text":"他自己可以生成出來跟羅委員報告每一家公司他在經營相關的業務都有他的神通廣大他應該都要依照各自保護法來做相關的當然啦我就是問你嘛既然他是你的客戶你沒有給他這個資料那他資料哪來的怎麼從天上掉下來還是從地底下竄上來"},{"start":607.971,"end":617.313,"text":"哪來的 不知道電信公司在這個案裡面就是純粹的網路通訊傳送的這個角色都不知道齁好 那請問一下 NCC 主管機關請問一下按照我們的電信業者說我們要給他們但是簡訊代發業者卻有這些資料你們查過沒"},{"start":629.656,"end":656.732,"text":"我們的職權範圍措用法的職權範圍內就是電信業者這部分我們調查過兩次行政調查那簡單再跟委員回報剛剛說有兩個層次第一個層次是用戶同意LPS第二個層次是A傳給B傳給CC是電信公司最後傳給使用者B是簡訊大發業者A最上一端的行銷公司他為什麼會有資料要由這個行銷公司來說明他要負這個法律責任他是要怎麼取得是合法還是"},{"start":658.273,"end":684.15,"text":"那所以這個調查責任是不是在NCC不是不在NCC在哪裡啊在它對應的相關主管機關它對應主管機關是什麼它是行銷公司目前初步應該是經濟部經濟部齁經濟部應該包商包海齁那因為它違法個資法的問題最近法務部大量在查違反個資法的問題啊那所以請問一下部長法務部部長這該不該你們查"},{"start":688.395,"end":701.827,"text":"反正那個有涉及到犯罪的有經過告訴高發等等的那當然我們會啟動調查那不管不要說什麼個資啦如果說還有什麼其他的犯罪包括像這種可能涉及過去有查過嗎"},{"start":703.789,"end":705.27,"text":"過去有查過嗎這個我沒有統計的資料怎麼會沒有查過這麼多詐騙很多詐騙就是透過簡訊的詐騙我剛剛講說簡訊簡訊的問題我剛剛講說簡訊這些所發的簡訊有"},{"start":725.956,"end":738.263,"text":"被設定特殊條件 並不是在選舉啊其實過去選舉 我直接說 我們也常常有很多的政治人物啊就是到了中秋節啊 過年啊 他也會發送簡訊嘛給你拜年啊 什麼之類的那在一般的商業行為裡面也非常多那最氾濫的確實就是詐騙 因為最害怕的就是詐騙嘛"},{"start":750.49,"end":756.535,"text":"所以照理說你們應該早就針對這一些因為防詐騙早就應該啟動相關的調查怎麼會到現在都告訴我好像沒有人在管而且也不知道他的資料哪裡來的你關心的就是那個詐欺的那部長根據你們過去的調查因為我剛剛講說詐騙最多嘛"},{"start":775.569,"end":781.391,"text":"根據你們過去的調查這些點訊代發業者如果有這些特殊條件他的資料哪裡來的因為NC說他只查電訊業者電訊業者說我們沒有啊我們沒有提供啊所以你都不知道犯罪集團的問題當他變成詐騙行為這麼多的時候他已經不是個案他變通案啊請問他資料哪裡來的"},{"start":803.494,"end":808.076,"text":"這個要每個犯罪的你也不知道這個每個犯罪類型疑問都三不知我不是疑問三不知這個我沒辦法跟你講說到底是哪個案件是從哪裡來的所以這個有些是有些廣告頭髮商有些是脫波的人是給的嘛那有些是要怎麼收集的就是最原始的那個"},{"start":821.584,"end":832.727,"text":"那個前端的那個是誰收集處理他把這些賣掉所以呢我在這邊不要為了cover這件事情來部長不要著急喔我要講的就是說不要為了cover這件事情這個事實上在簡訊就是這些商業簡訊裡面已經非常慣常慣常的這些資料就是他常常是用特殊因為他要精準行銷嘛"},{"start":849.691,"end":854.794,"text":"因為他不能海量發送海量發送實在太貴了他要精準行銷所以這個照理講尤其我們詐騙這麼多你們早就應該去整理出他的樣態啊怎麼到現在什麼都不知道好我這邊只有兩個要求第一個要求像這樣子如果你們確定他是有違反各司法之嫌那你們該調查就要調查不要為了去cover哪些集團"},{"start":879.346,"end":882.451,"text":"第二個 請你不要半藍不半綠不要半藍不半綠我們同樣的同樣到時候 罷團可以用被罷免的人也同樣可以用"},{"start":895.905,"end":919.114,"text":"是不是 應該是這樣的一個標準所以我要講的就是說該調查要調查第二個在調查的時候就請你不要再雙標了我知道你今天下午要開一個記者會我都不曉得你們到底要有什麼樣的資政記者會是要告訴大家我們這一年司法來的豐功偉業就是"},{"start":920.494,"end":924.838,"text":"關了一個在野黨的主席對不對然後抄了八個在野黨的黨部關了多少的人家黨部的主委逃掉多少的經濟的重要的這些經濟犯我不曉得你今天下午是不是要公布這些啦當民意對於司法的公信力滿一度這麼低的時候"},{"start":948.378,"end":963.047,"text":"請你們拿出真正的民眾關心的這個證物而不是在繼續的為政治服務我不是關心幾個案件我們是關心所有的被害人我不是關心幾個案件我們關心的可多了"},{"start":963.567,"end":967.731,"text":"所以剛才因為有限時間關係像剛剛羅志強委員所提的反正我們呢我們黨團也已經提出相關的這個法案的修正也希望法務部能夠採納能夠回應13萬多人在網路上大家的一個期待這個情況我相信這部分我們就在這已經在修法了我們會更者的情況能夠更加保護我們的這些的"},{"start":990.349,"end":1018.159,"text":"兒少 我們絕對不能允許這些的剛才那個主席也跟我們講 我們那個包括是不是真的要殺人 或者是一個致死的是不是在各一個家庭我們都在研究如果 凌虐七歲以下 凌虐七歲以下 兒童致死是不是應該可以 處以死刑 或者無期徒刑因為剛才也講喔 對不對 你凌虐這麼小的小孩你就知道一定對他造成非常大的傷害嘛委員 我的愛心 我對同情 我絕對不會輸給你的啦"},{"start":1021.226,"end":1042.351,"text":"我們今天在講法欸你不是在跟我選舉啊這個不是 部長你不需要這麼多的政治語言所以我剛才講說因為對這些兒童 我們真的是天理 這些的殘害真的是天理燃容所以 淩孽幼童 就是我說七歲以下七歲以下的淩孽幼童"},{"start":1043.751,"end":1053.436,"text":"這個其實不是叫過失啊這就是故意了嘛對不對這個絕對不是故意的喔好所以我們因為我們這個很委員不知道那個起訴的法條他會召開公聽會排公聽會到時候也會審查相關法案希望法務部拿出最大最大的誠意這個委員妳放心這部分我們現我們會用"},{"start":1066.543,"end":1072.351,"text":"以最周全的保護的一個方式我想這個是回憶名義啦我們一定會回憶名義這個請委員放心那我想這個對兒童少年的一個保護我們一定要不遺餘力那我們也謝謝委員請你有具體的行為來推動好謝謝好謝謝王委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1059,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時17分）謝謝主席，我請司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長。"],["王委員鴻薇：法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：鄭部長。"],["王委員鴻薇：NCC主委。"],["主席：NCC代理主委。"],["王委員鴻薇：還有中華電信。"],["主席：副總。"],["王委員鴻薇：其實今天我們主要是談簡訊，罷團組織顯然已經很精準地針對地區發了相關的簡訊，這個簡訊到底有沒有違反相關的個資法，根據自由時報的報導，自由時報報導引述司法院說：「有違法可提起救濟。」司法院說近期各地進行的公職人員罷免案，目前尚處於選罷法規定的提議或連署階段，民眾收到罷免連署簡訊可能涉及違反個資法，我想請問副秘書長，到底有沒有違反個資法？請說。"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分我們剛在報告中有說，還是要看它的整個程序，因為司法最後事實上是在尾端，所以要看個案所呈現的狀況才能夠做判斷。"],["王委員鴻薇：我簡訊內容給你看了，因為這個是有鎖定區域，它不會到臺北來讓我去平鎮簽聯署書，也不會讓我去新店簽聯署書，它的發送是有鎖定在他的選區，這樣有沒有違反個資法？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，剛才……"],["王委員鴻薇：不管是哪一端，最後這個行為有沒有違反個資法？個資有受到保護嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，剛才主管機關對這個部分也有非常多的說明，司法必須要有個案出來的時候，在最後的時候……"],["王委員鴻薇：那自由時報是假新聞嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：他說罷團簡訊可能涉嫌違法，所以你現在不敢講了。請問法務部鄭部長，像這個行為有沒有違反個資法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個行為有沒有違反個資法要就個案的認定，但是個資法處罰是看違反第六條、第十五條、第十六條、第十九條跟第二十條，因為個資蒐集、處理、利用都有法定嚴格的標準，如果有人違反的話……"],["王委員鴻薇：我的意思就是他可以很精準地在這個區域裡面，發送簡訊給這個區域的受眾，這沒有個資外洩的問題嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我們看個人資料保護法個人資料的定義……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，部長，我要問……"],["鄭部長銘謙：它是指自然人，還有比如出生年月日、身分證號碼、電話號碼等等，得以直接或間接識別該個人的資料，也就是說，如果單純的一個電話號碼，我們沒辦法知道這個是誰的，如果簡訊說：王某某，麻煩你來支持。這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：這樣才有違反個資法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個就是很明確的個人資料，所以如果只用一個單純電話，無法辨識這到底是誰的電話。"],["王委員鴻薇：無法辨識嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要往前……"],["王委員鴻薇：無法辨識啦！無法辨識他有沒有違反個資。"],["鄭部長銘謙：無法辨識這是誰的電話，這部分可能要再往前去推，是不是有提供這些……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，請問像這個案例，因為民眾都很緊張，我們會針對這有沒有違反個資法來調查嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：只要有人來告訴、告發，依據訴訟法第二百二十八條，我們就來查到底有沒有違反個資法。"],["王委員鴻薇：我想請問一下，像我是被罷免人，我們很多委員是被罷免人，因為這個簡訊是罷團發送的，假使被罷免人針對這個區域也發送這樣的簡訊：拜託你要出來投票、要投不同意罷免。請問一下，要不要辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：只要有人……我想這個都是按照證據來認定跟調查。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為現在都是辦藍不辦綠，所以我們擔心的是罷團這樣都沒問題，司法院也說看個案，法務部也說看個案，然後等到被罷免人也同樣去買簡訊的時候，可能不一樣的內容，不是讓你去連署，就是拜託你投票、請你投票不同意罷免，哇！就有事了！因為你們的雙標是很厲害的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：不過跟委員解釋，那個不是雙標，如果接到簡訊，有個資法問題的話，那是屬於接到簡訊的人是被害人。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，民眾就告發啦！民眾怎麼沒有告發呢？你看他還提供簡訊給大家，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果告發我們就會辦，我們就依法來調查、釐清，看看有沒有成立個人資料外洩的問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，會不會雙標？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不會雙標啦！辦案本來就是依照證據來認定犯罪事實，沒有證據……"],["王委員鴻薇：因為你們雙標很厲害啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，委員，不能直接貼雙標的標籤，我們要維持一個純淨的辦案空間，有證據就辦，我們會……"],["王委員鴻薇：辦與不辦之間在於你們嘛！","我想請問NCC，有關簡訊集中在特殊條件，簡訊這些商業行為非常普遍，其實一般商業用得更廣，比如有些建商做一個建案，就是要有些特殊條件，鎖定在這個區域的，或比如一些投資理財，當然投資理財詐騙簡訊最多，所以我知道你們有一個防止詐騙，有關簡訊這些電信資料管理的指引，有沒有？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有。"],["王委員鴻薇：有嘛？當然它原來的出發點是防止詐騙，因為詐騙行為太多，你們這個指引，請問上路了沒有？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：112年就上路了。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，上路了。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：持續在修正當中，商業簡訊如果有網址連結、電話號碼、短碼部分，我們都會封阻，除非他經過驗證，符合正當使用會列入白名單。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問在指引裡面，他如果去限定他的特殊條件，比如限定在桃園地區、限定在臺北市或臺北市的哪幾個區域，或限定有過投資行為，類似這種商業化的簡訊……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：兩個層次……"],["王委員鴻薇：請問一下，如果這些幫企業去投放簡訊，這個在不在你們指引管理的範圍裡面？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不在，但是原來我們定期化契約有要求，還有個資法本身也有要求，你要提供LBS服務，必須要用戶同意才可以提供。"],["王委員鴻薇：才可以提供。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，就是經過合法或使用者同意。"],["王委員鴻薇：我請問一下，因為這個事件，你們說調查了解三家行動通訊業者都沒有提供簡訊發送門號清單及基地台區域廣播技術LBS給簡訊代發業者，就是我們三大電信業者都沒有提供。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問這些簡訊代發業者的資料哪來的？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：那就要問簡訊代發業者手上的資料，行銷公司是如何提供資料給他？"],["王委員鴻薇：他可以把他歸類，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：那就行銷公司的資訊來源這部分再去談……"],["王委員鴻薇：就不知道怎麼來源？我請中華電信，因為他們是你的客戶，請林副總。"],["林執行副總經理文智：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為你們是上游，中游是這些簡訊代發業者，你們沒有給他們，那他們資料哪來的？怎麼生出來的？"],["林執行副總經理文智：其實他們的資料，我們大概無從去了解。"],["王委員鴻薇：無從要求、無從理解？不知道他怎麼來的，他自己可以生成出來。"],["林執行副總經理文智：跟委員報告，每一家公司在經營相關的業務……"],["王委員鴻薇：都有他的神通廣大？"],["林執行副總經理文智：他應該都要依照個資保護法來做相關的處理。"],["王委員鴻薇：這當然啊，我就問你，既然他是你的客戶，你沒有給他這個資料，那他資料哪來的？從天上掉下來，還是從地底下竄上來？哪來的，不知道？"],["林執行副總經理文智：電信公司在這個案子裡面就是純粹網路通訊傳送的角色。"],["王委員鴻薇：都不知道？NCC主管機關，請問按照電信業者說沒有給他們，但是簡訊代發業者卻有這些資料，你們查過沒？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們作用法的職權範圍內，就電信業者這部分，我們有兩次行政調查過。簡單再跟委員回報，剛剛有兩個層次：第一個層次是用戶同意LBS，第二個層次是A傳給B傳給C，C是電信公司最後傳給使用者，B是簡訊代發業者，A最上游端的行銷公司，他為什麼會有資料要由這個行銷公司來說明，他要負這個法律責任，他資料怎麼取得？是合法還是違法？"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這個調查責任是不是在NCC？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不是。"],["王委員鴻薇：不在NCC，在哪裡？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：在他對應的相關主管機關。"],["王委員鴻薇：他對應主管機關是什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：他是行銷公司，目前初步應該是經濟部。"],["王委員鴻薇：經濟部？經濟部應該包山包海？因為他違法個資法的問題，最近法務部大量在查違反個資法的問題，請問法務部部長，這該不該你們查？NCC說不干他的事。"],["鄭部長銘謙：凡是有涉及到犯罪，經過告訴、告發等等，當然我們會啟動調查，不只是個資，如果還有其他的犯罪，包括像這種可能涉及妨礙秘密的問題……"],["王委員鴻薇：過去有查過嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我沒有統計的資料。"],["王委員鴻薇：怎麼會沒有查過？這麼多詐騙，很多詐騙就是透過簡訊在詐騙。"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個本來就是個資……"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛剛講簡訊的問題……"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個詐騙詐欺本來就有個資法，他有查到違反個資法，檢方會起訴，但沒有這部分的統計數據。"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛剛講這些所發的簡訊有被設定特殊條件，並不是在選舉。我直接說，常常有很多政治人物，到了中秋節、過年，他也會發送簡訊給你拜年之類的，在一般的商業行為裡面也非常多，最氾濫的確實就是詐騙，因為最害怕的就是詐騙嘛！所以照理說，因為防詐騙，你們應該早就要針對這一些啟動相關的調查，怎麼會到現在都告訴我，好像沒有人在管，而且也不知道他們的資料哪裡來的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員所關心詐欺的詐團，本來就有個資法的一些起訴案例，那個是有嘛！"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，因為我剛剛提到詐騙最多，根據你們過去的調查，這一些簡訊代發業者如果有這些特殊條件，他們的資料哪裡來的？因為NCC說他們只查電信業者，電信業者說：「我們沒有，我們沒有提供啊！」。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是屬於犯罪前端的問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你都不知道犯罪集團的問題？當他們變成詐騙行為這麼多的時候，他們已經不是個案是變通案了，請問他們資料哪裡來的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：每個犯罪的情況……"],["王委員鴻薇：你也不知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：每個犯罪類型都不一樣，他怎麼來的……"],["王委員鴻薇：一問都三不知？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不是一問都三不知，我沒辦法跟你講：到底是哪個案件？是從哪裡來的？所以是有些廣告投放商，有些是託播的人給的，有些是怎麼蒐集的，就是最原始的前端所蒐集，而他們就把這些蒐集及處理後的個人資料賣掉，有些是賣他的……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長不要著急，我要講的是不要為了cover這件事情，這事實上在簡訊……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有在cover。"],["王委員鴻薇：就是這些商業簡訊裡面已經非常慣常的這些資料，就是常常是用特殊條件，因為他們要精準行銷嘛！他們不能海量發送，海量發送實在太貴了，他們要精準行銷，所以照理講，尤其我們詐騙這麼多，你們早就應該去整理出他們的樣態，怎麼到現在什麼都不知道，我這邊只有兩個要求，第一個，如果像這樣情況，你們確定他們是有違反個資法之嫌，該調查就要調查，不要為了去cover哪些集團。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們不會去cover，警政署長在這裡，我們打詐團隊不會去cover什麼集團，這是我們需要做澄清的。"],["王委員鴻薇：第二個，請你不要辦藍不辦綠，罷團可以用，到時候被罷免的人也同樣可以用，是不是？應該是這樣的一個標準。所以我要講的就是該調查就要調查，另外在調查的時候，就請你不要再雙標了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有雙標，只要犯罪有告訴、告發的話，我們就按照證據來證明犯罪行為，我們沒有雙標啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道你們今天下午要開記者會，我都不曉得你們到底要有什麼樣的施政記者會？是要告訴大家，你們這一年司法來得豐功偉業，就是關了一個在野黨的主席，對不對？然後抄了8個在野黨的黨部，關了多少的人家的黨部主委？逃掉多少的重要經濟要犯？我不曉得你今天下午是不是要公布這些啦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不同意委員這些的講法，這樣對我們戰戰兢兢及那麼辛苦的這些辦案人員，包含法官、檢察官、警察等辦案人員是很不公平的說法。"],["王委員鴻薇：當民意對於司法的公信力及滿意度這麼低的時候，請你們拿出真正民眾關心的證物，而不是在繼續的為政治服務。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們關心所有的被害人，委員是關心幾個案件，我們是關心所有的被害人。"],["王委員鴻薇：我不是關心幾個案件，我們是關心可多了，因為現在時間的關係，像剛剛羅智強委員所提的，反正我們黨團也已經提出相關法案的修正，也希望法務部能夠採納，能夠回應十三萬多人在網路上大家的一個期待，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：請委員放心，這部分我們已經在修法了，我們會更完整的情況，能夠更加保護這些的兒少，我們絕對不能允許這些的……剛才主席也有講，包括是不是真的要到殺人或者致死的是不是可以再加重，我們都在研議。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，如果凌虐7歲以下兒童致死，是不是應該可以處以死刑或者無期徒刑？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是我們在研議，是開放的一個選項。"],["王委員鴻薇：剛才也有講，凌虐這麼小的小孩，你就知道一定對他造成非常大的傷害。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，我的愛心及同情心絕對不會輸給你的。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們現在講法，你不是在跟我選舉啊！部長不需要有這麼多的政治語言，所以我剛才講說……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不是政治語言，因為對這些兒童的殘害，真的是天理難容，所以我們一直在努力。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以凌虐幼童，就是7歲以下的凌虐幼童，這個其實不是叫過失，這就是故意了，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是過失，絕對是故意的，委員可能不知道起訴的法條。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，召委會召開公聽會、排公聽會，到時候也會審查相關法案，希望法務部拿出最大、最大的誠意來支持，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員請放心，這部分我們會以最周全的保護方式，我想這是人神共憤。"],["王委員鴻薇：回應民意啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們一定會回應民意，請委員放心，對兒童、少年的保護，我們一定會不遺餘力，也謝謝委員，一起來推動。"],["王委員鴻薇：請你有具體的行為，好不好？謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位請葉元之委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","張啓楷","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","羅智強","王鴻薇","葉元之","林倩綺"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、內\n政部警政署署長、中央選舉委員會、數位發展部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有\n限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「民眾反應收到罷免連署簡訊，顯非商業廣告目的利用，質疑個資\n洩漏而侵害人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145202_00002"}}},{"id":"161566","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161566","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f04df887a8a37d1219239b9191e0d12eeaeec3a664eb5353670385acd6577be4b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:03:07 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民怨也沸騰13位網友在公共政策平台提議要提高虐童者的刑責希望致死者要處無期徒刑或死刑 且不得假釋"},{"start":38.066,"end":61.741,"text":"但是法務部卻回應不予採納但我也看到新聞說部長你今天在立法院表示虐童行為是人神共憤天理難容 零容忍那更周延的法律保護法務部仍在演繹中我想請問到底是不採納還是零容忍"},{"start":64.01,"end":80.807,"text":"跟委員報告,我想這個我們凱凱案的有關兒少保護我們一定要非常的落實,而且要非常的完備那的確這個是對有些虐殺這種是人神功天理然容,絕對是零容忍"},{"start":81.388,"end":108.155,"text":"那這部分我們在法治上我們會我們現在在檢討說哪些是可以有可以再努力的一個地方因為我們要讓這些的此類這些讓我們全民痛心的這些以及像兒童的這個被虐殺的這種我們覺得不能容許這樣發生所以這邊我們在法治我們會再做一個更周延的一個那給我們一些時間我們會盡快來做一個處理那目前我們是在研議"},{"start":109.495,"end":132.09,"text":"那另外那個假釋的那部分我們那個有關於假釋我們有提那個假釋就是殺人或殺人未遂判十年以上這一種我們是不得假釋像那個孽統的那種零列那部分事實上有時候他可能有些的個案的現在可能會有單純的零列自加重接管有些可能會到"},{"start":133.21,"end":148.067,"text":"殺人的那一部分那這部分殺人的那一部分根據二七一條那個是死刑無期徒刑跟十年以上有期徒刑那這部分的保密是不是可以再更周延那我們現在在嚴厲中部長"},{"start":151.221,"end":177.761,"text":"雖然你剛剛的回答我也沒有很滿意啦但是起碼我覺得你的回答就柔軟多了那我想問法務部第一時間不予採納是什麼意思啊那部分那是就一個現況的一個法律的一個現況的著重在那樣的一個說明那我想這個認可的法律都是要做滾動式的一個檢視檢討我跟部長說啦還是提醒一下"},{"start":178.874,"end":193.664,"text":"法務部跟人民的所謂的我們講社會尤其是治安跟我們的司法保護的情感是密切相關13位網友的憤怒是假的嗎是不應該的嗎不是吧"},{"start":194.96,"end":223.78,"text":"大家是對這個所謂的虐童致死的事情是感到很痛心才會有這麼多的網友來做公共政策的提案那法務部一盆冷水潑過去不予採納沒有那個 我們就是沒有關係啊 部長你剛剛回答你就說已經是比原來我看到的這個這個冷冷冰冰的四個字要有溫度的多所以我才說 雖然你的回答我也不是很滿意但是至少比冷冷冰冰的說不予採納的要好"},{"start":225.302,"end":235.48,"text":"凱凱遭保姆姐妹凌虐致死那中間很多的細節真的讓人髮指連台大醫師都探說從來沒見過這麼嚴重的人為暴力"},{"start":238.581,"end":257.638,"text":"那法官雖然認為保姆姊妹倆以虐取樂 為害甚懼但是因為檢方是依據凌虐兒童致死罪起訴但這個罪目前沒有死刑嘛 對不對那法官也不能判死所以一審是判保姆姊妹無期徒刑跟18年有期徒刑"},{"start":259.549,"end":273.187,"text":"事實上本席跟我們國民黨都已經有提案修法要加重虐童的刑責來修正刑法286條那麼對於虐童 凌虐致死者最高可以判處死刑"},{"start":274.108,"end":298.46,"text":"來符合罪行相當的原則那也要來修刑法77條觸犯286者遭判有期徒刑不得假釋這都是我們現在的提案那其中最重要的是把這個所謂的死刑納為選項之一判刑的選項之一來發揮對所謂虐童殘暴虐童致死的這個行為的遏止那麼我想請教部長"},{"start":299.6,"end":328.136,"text":"既然部長剛剛已經也表達了同理心你甚至也說要對這種惡行要零容忍我想請問法務部是不是也會針對這個部分提案修法甚至來請行政院提出院版那大概什麼時候可以提出來這部分我們現在在這個條文我們在演繹中那我想委員這部分就是說林烈是被盜死刑這個選項我倒就一個不同的思考這個林烈如果說一開始就是"},{"start":328.556,"end":355,"text":"不違反他的本意 這有間接故事 這根本就是殺人的一個行為了嘛那為什麼你今天不用殺人罪請說沒有 那這個因為個案 我就 個案的證據我沒辦法去做一個 一個證據的蒐集跟認定齁但是從那個太陽 是從那個凌劣 凌劣的一般凌劣 凌劣至中傷至死 以至到死刑拘禁至凌劣 凌劣而至死 以至到 甚至到殺人的一個 一個不同的一個太陽的分布齁"},{"start":355.62,"end":379.951,"text":"那我想當然這個案是會分佈在整個這幾個區塊裡面那我們想我們再檢討的確是凱凱命案令我們非常的痛心非常的難過那我想絕對不能再容許有此類的案件發生所以在法治上我們是希望能夠更加的一個完備更加充分的保護這些的這個是很可憐的這些尤其是"},{"start":381.604,"end":404.831,"text":"這個未滿18歲尤其是未滿7歲的這些兒童跟少年這個是讓我們非常的痛心的所以這部分我們法務部是有在這邊就一個一個研議要更能夠落實充分保護這些的兒童那剛才委員關心的那個假釋部分那我們已經提那個殺人殺人未遂10年以上的這些不得假釋這部分重大的暴力的這些"},{"start":405.936,"end":430.757,"text":"我們已經提給 報給行政委 行政委就開審查開了兩次了那如果說還有再更不足的 我們會再做一個嚴厲來做一個檢討我直接跟部長說 做一個簡單的小結事實上在開檢案發生的時候 立法院有一共有15個提案修法其中10個提案是要把死刑納入量刑的考量當中"},{"start":431.838,"end":458.838,"text":"那剛剛我其實有點遺憾啦雖然你提了其他一些所謂法律條件適用的問題但本質上你是反對將凌烈兒童致死這件事情我並沒有 這個如果說凌烈這個已經到達殺人的那一種當然是 我要 我要我這個因為有些凌烈是有未必故意因為那我想那個主席很清楚嘛凌烈單純的 凌烈致死那現在是無期徒刑但是我認為如果這個凌烈的他一開始就"},{"start":460.083,"end":483.479,"text":"就死了沒關係就那種部分這個更加的可惡這個已經列入進入到271條的一個問題了甚至那個有有那個兒少法的115條的那個加重二分之一那我們覺得這個是不是才夠我們也是覺得說是不是還可以更重的一個一個一個我跟你講我很快下一個結論我待會可以聽聽主席的意見了沒有問題 剛才點名主席嘛"},{"start":484.249,"end":506.419,"text":"我跟你講你剛剛跟我講說這個法條有殺人罪可以用所以死刑不一定要用在凌虐兒童制止這個都可以討論的所以你在這部分你的修法態度是保留的嗎沒有沒有那個我們跟委員你也要跟我講我覺得那個凌虐的部分如果說真的有殺人的那些都故意那個直接殺人的話那個直接我"},{"start":507.139,"end":522.297,"text":"所以兒童的保護規定我現在的271條那我會更重喔那會更重我們是不是他的選項是到甚至可以考慮我只講一個事實性的結果嘛事實性的結果你今天就不是用殺人罪起訴他嘛"},{"start":523.303,"end":541.646,"text":"因為這個個案我沒辦法去討論到我不知道我請我們主席開示一下你剛剛說點名主席我不讓主席講講話我覺得對主席不好意思我想法務部的意思我也有看過法務部他是從立法技術面去思考因為前面凌虐跟後面的死亡他不是殺人故意所以"},{"start":542.307,"end":560.127,"text":"後面那個死亡是有點類似是過失致死的那個概念所以那個法務部認為說凌虐是凌虐行為然後再造成過失致死所以他們認為不宜用那個殺人去認定或是加高到死刑但是我這邊也是請法務部能夠"},{"start":562.049,"end":574.014,"text":"思考幾個點第一個當然是說現在人民有這種需求那我們其實是可以多溝通我知道法務部的這個論述在立法紀錄上面確實也有這樣子的學說的採取第二個是328條"},{"start":576.479,"end":593.64,"text":"那個強盜致死他後面的致死也是屬於過失但是328條他是有死刑所以我國法治上面不是說只有殺人罪有死刑是我國法治本來就有加重結果犯後面的過失造成他死亡也是有死刑"},{"start":594.461,"end":616.725,"text":"所以說這兩個東西是一樣嘛就是凌虐致死跟強盜致死兩個東西其實它的結構上面是類似的那為什麼強盜致死我國法治上面要死這個我知道這個立法技術的一個問題但是我們認為這個凌虐如果又殺人的話或者主席講說加重結果犯下強盜性侵的那就是加重結果犯下221條等等那些"},{"start":619.546,"end":627.778,"text":"那個我們可以再來做一個一個但是我想這個零類零類人致死這個就是很可惡的但是我們是拜託法務部就是不要踩的就是"},{"start":628.7,"end":652.475,"text":"我不要或是拒絕溝通就是說你大家來溝通這個我們現在就在溝通而且我們是回應整個一個民意的一個意見我想這個我們非常重視這些的民眾的一個聲音我想我們有共同目標華為不是跟我們的民意是站在一起的我們是沒辦法去容忍這種改革命案這種可以在"},{"start":653.275,"end":679.775,"text":"怎麼會有這一種的人審公問呢我們沒辦法去容忍所以在這個立法上我們會再做怎樣我們是希望能夠再更重這個我想跟委員報告我們有這樣的一個態度我還是拜託部長參考一下啦剛剛其實剛剛我們的中縣召委也講出了在別的立法例當中他一樣還是可以把死刑作為量刑罰這個我們會再研究這也是本來我們研究的選項我知道聽到這句話我就比較的內容嘛我想這個委員但是我跟你講"},{"start":682.657,"end":706.972,"text":"部長我先謝謝你啦 因為你剛剛說納入死刑在研議這句話基本上我接受啦 但是拜託腳步跟時程因為我經常過去跟法務部我們有這麼多的一些互動經常最後就是有個頭那就沒個尾那我希望這件事情能夠順應我們的台灣人民對於所謂公平正義 司法正義的期待我最後還是做一點結論啦"},{"start":708.246,"end":732.033,"text":"今天不只是凱凱案是這樣其實我最近看了很多案子我自己都看得很搖頭比方說那杜成哲詐騙集團拘禁凌虐六十一個人耶六十一個人其中有三個被活活的虐殺就也是免死啊那我都不知道到底我們的司法怎麼跟這六十一個"},{"start":733.459,"end":746.808,"text":"被他凌虐的人交代怎麼跟那個三個被虐死的交代其中一個媽媽的故事我到現在都是看得很難過啊他媽媽臨終前還拖旁邊的人跟他兒子說對不起媽媽沒有辦法好好再照顧你"},{"start":748.232,"end":770.418,"text":"我要說今天台灣我們的司法行事政策真的已經走向是在保護加害人然後去踐踏被害人這種情況這也是為什麼今天會提出來所謂的反廢死公投當然我知道法務部也好或是很多主張說那是大法官的判決我們今天不可以用公投抱歉這一點我是不能接受的"},{"start":771.118,"end":788.244,"text":"第一個公投法並沒有說憲法判決不能做公投私下它講的是重大政策可以做公投私下第二個是我不認為大法官高於人民啊所以大法官今天設了所謂的十八同仁陣來去讓判死越來越難為什麼今天杜成澤的判死這麼難這個詐欺集團判死這麼難"},{"start":790.965,"end":811.221,"text":"也是跟大法官的憲法判決有關啊更何況還有一件事馬上被認證的就是施奪獎女老師的案子五度判死最後被免死定驗就在大法官憲法判決之後第一時間最高法院出來直接引述說是大法官按照大法官最新憲法判決的意思所以才改判免死定驗的"},{"start":812.498,"end":834.435,"text":"這一點是我自己一直放在心上啦那包括凱凱案的這些事情我剛剛很謝謝部長部長說願意來去做行動上的一個考量那這一點總是一個好的開始但不管怎麼樣講今天真的不能讓我們行事政策扭曲到這個地方非常背離人民的情感讓我們善良的老百姓覺得沒有受到保護謝謝部長謝謝你"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1015,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時3分）主席，有請法務部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長好。大家知道剴剴案造成大家心非常痛，民怨也沸騰，13位網友在公共政策平臺提議要提高虐童者的刑責，希望致死者要處無期徒刑或死刑，且不得假釋。但是法務部卻回應不予採納，但我也看到新聞提到部長今天在立法院表示虐童行為是人神共憤、天理難容、零容忍，更周延的法律保護，法務部仍在研議中。我想請問到底是不採納，還是零容忍？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我想剴剴案有關的兒少保護，我們一定要非常的落實，而且要非常完備，尤其虐殺，這種是人神共憤、天理難容，絕對是零容忍，這部分在法制上，我們現在也在檢討哪些是可以再努力的地方，因為此類讓全民痛心以及像兒童被虐殺的這些案件，我們絕對不能容許再有這樣發生，所以這部分我們在法制上會再做得更周延，請給我們一些時間，會儘快來做一個處理，目前我們是在追、在研議。"],["羅委員智強：好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外假釋的部分，我們有提針對殺人或殺人未遂被判10年以上，這種是不得假釋。像虐童的凌虐部分，事實上，有時候有些個案可能會有單純的凌虐之加重結果犯；有些可能會到殺人的部分，殺人部分就是根據刑法第二百七十一條，處死刑、無期徒刑或10年以上有期徒刑，有關這部分是不是可以再更周延？我們現在也在研議中。"],["羅委員智強：好，部長，雖然你剛剛的回答，我也沒有很滿意啦！但是起碼我覺得你的回答就柔軟多了。我想問法務部第一時間回應不予採納是什麼意思？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那部分，是就法律著重在一個現況的說明，我想任何法律都要做滾動式的檢視跟檢討。"],["羅委員智強：我跟部長提醒一下，法務部跟人民所謂的社會，尤其是治安跟司法保護的情感是密切相關。13位網友的憤怒是假的嗎？是不應該的嗎？不是吧！大家是對所謂虐童致死的事情感到很痛心，才會有這麼多網友來做公共政策的提案，那法務部一盆冷水潑過去，不予採納。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，我們就是……"],["羅委員智強：沒有關係，部長，你剛剛的回答，已經比原來我看到的冷冷冰冰四個字要有溫度的多，所以我才說雖然你的回答我也不是很滿意，但是至少比冷冷冰冰的說「不予採納」的要好。剴剴遭保母姐妹凌虐致死，中間很多細節真的讓人髮指，連臺大醫師都嘆說從來沒見過這麼嚴重的人為暴力，法官雖然認為保母姐妹倆以虐取樂、危害甚鉅，但是因為檢方是依據凌虐兒童致死罪起訴，而這個罪目前沒有死刑嘛，法官也不能判死，所以一審是判保母姐妹無期徒刑跟18年有期徒刑。事實上，本席跟國民黨都已經有提案修法要加重虐童的刑責，來修正刑法第二百八十六條，對於虐童凌虐致死者，最高可以判處死刑，來符合罪刑相當的原則；也要來修刑法第七十七條，觸犯第二百八十六條者遭判有期徒刑不得假釋，這都是我們現在的提案，其中最重要是把所謂的死刑納為判刑的選項之一，來發揮對所謂殘暴虐童致死行為的遏止。","我想請教部長，既然部長剛剛也已經表達了同理心，你甚至也說對這種惡行要零容忍，我想請問法務部是不是也會針對這個部分提案修法，甚至來請行政院提出院版，大概什麼時候可以提出來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在這個條文的部分，我們在研議中，我想委員提到，就是凌虐致死者，判處死刑這個選項，我倒是就有一個不同的思考，如果凌虐一開始就是不違反他的本意，這就是間接故意，根本就是殺人的一個行為了嘛！"],["羅委員智強：那為什麼你今天不用殺人罪起訴？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，因為我就個案的證據，我沒辦法去做證據的蒐集跟認定，但是態樣是從一般凌虐致重傷、致死，以致到私行拘禁凌虐而致死，甚至到殺人，這些不同態樣的分布，我想當然個案會分布在幾個區塊裡面，我們在檢討，的確是剴剴命案令我們非常地痛心、非常地難過，我想絕對不能再容許有此類的案件發生，所以在法制上，我們是希望能夠更加完備、更加充分的保護這些很可憐的人，尤其是未滿18歲及未滿7歲的兒童跟少年，這是讓我們非常地痛心，所以這部分法務部是有在研議要更能夠落實、充分保護這些兒童。剛剛委員關心的假釋部分，我們已經提殺人未遂10年以上不得假釋之重大暴力的部分，我們已經提報給行政院，行政院也開了兩次審查，如果還有再更不足的，我們會再研議、檢討。"],["羅委員智強：我直接跟部長說，做一個簡單的小結。事實上，在剴剴案發生的時候，立法院一共有15個修法提案，其中有10個提案是要把死刑納入量刑的考量當中，剛剛我其實有點遺憾，你雖然提了其他一些所謂法律條文適用的問題，但本質上，你是反對將凌虐兒童致死這件事情……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我並沒有，如果說凌虐已經到達殺人的……有些凌虐未必故意，我想主席很清楚，單純凌虐致死現在是無期徒刑，但是我認為如果凌虐，他一開始就認為死了沒關係，這種更加可惡，這個已經進入到第二百七十一條的問題，甚至牽涉兒少法第一百十五條，加重二分之一，我們覺得這樣是不是才夠？我們也是覺得是不是可以更重？"],["羅委員智強：部長，我跟你講，我很快下一個結論，我待會也可以聽聽主席的意見沒有問題，你剛才有點名主席。我要跟你講，你剛剛跟我講法條有殺人罪可以用，所以死刑不一定要用在凌虐兒童致死……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個都可以討論。"],["羅委員智強：所以你在這部分，你的修法態度是保留的、保守的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有、沒有，委員你也要聽我講，我覺得凌虐這部分，如果真的有殺人的故意、直接殺人，我對兒童的保護，我會比現在的第兩百七十一條更重，會更重。我們對於他的選項，甚至可以考慮無期或者直接到死刑。"],["羅委員智強：我只講一個事實性的結果，事實性的結果是你今天就不是用殺人罪起訴他，不是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這個個案，我沒有辦法討論……"],["羅委員智強：你看又回到個案。我不知道，我請我們主席開示，你剛剛點名主席，我不讓主席講講話，我覺得也對主席不好意思。"],["主席：法務部的意思我大概有看過，法務部是從立法技術面去思考，因為前面凌虐跟後面的死亡，他不是殺人故意，後面的死亡有點類似是過失致死的概念，所以法務部認為凌虐是凌虐行為，然後再造成過失致死，所以他們認為不宜用殺人去認定，或是加高到死刑。但是我也請法務部能夠思考幾個點：第一個，當然現在人民有這種需求，我們其實是可以多溝通。我知道法務部的論述，在立法紀錄上面確實也有採取這樣的學說。第二個，第三百二十八條強盜致死，後面的致死也是屬於過失，但是第三百二十八條是有死刑，所以我國法制上面，不是只有殺人罪有死刑，而是我國法制本來就有加重結果犯，後面的過失造成他死亡也是有死刑，所以這兩個東西是一樣的，就是凌虐致死跟強盜致死兩個，其實結構上面是類似，為什麼強盜致死我國法制上面有死刑？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我知道。"],["主席：對、對、對，所以我就說……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個立法技術的問題，但是我們認為凌虐如果有殺人，或者主席講加重結果犯，像強盜後性侵的就加重結果犯，在第二百二十一條等等，那些我們可以再來做一個……但是我想凌虐人致死，這個就是很可惡的……"],["主席：但是我們拜託法務部，不要採的就是「我不要」或是拒絕溝通，就是讓大家來溝通嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們現在就在溝通，而且我們是回應整個……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝主席。"],["鄭部長銘謙：民意的意見，我想我們非常重視民眾的聲音，我想我們有共同目標，法務部是跟我們的民意站在一起的，我們是沒辦法去容忍這種剴剴命案，怎麼會有這種人神共憤的事情，我沒辦法去容忍，所以在立法上，我們是希望能夠再更重，我想跟委員報告我們有這樣的態度。"],["羅委員智強：我還是拜託部長參考一下，剛剛我們的宗憲召委也講，在別的立法例當中，一樣還是可以把死刑作為量刑考量之一……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們會再研議，這也是本來我們研議的選項……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝，我至少聽到這句話就比較……"],["鄭部長銘謙：研議的內容。我想委員……"],["羅委員智強：部長，我先謝謝你，剛剛說納入死刑，你說再研議，你這句話基本上我接受，但是拜託腳步跟時程……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會盡快。"],["羅委員智強：因為過去我們跟法務部這麼多的互動，經常最後是有個頭沒個尾，我希望這件事情能夠順應我們臺灣人民對於所謂公平正義、司法正義的期待。","我最後還是做一點結論，今天不只是剴剴案，其實最近看了很多案子，我自己都看得很搖頭，比方說，杜承哲詐騙集團拘禁、凌虐61個人！61個人其中有3個被活活地虐殺，結果也是免死，我都不知道，到底我們的司法怎麼跟這61個被他凌虐的人交代？怎麼跟那3個被虐死的家屬交代？其中一個媽媽的故事，我到現在看了都還很難過，他媽媽臨終前要託旁邊的人跟他兒子說：「對不起，媽媽沒有辦法好好再照顧你了。」我要說，今天我們臺灣的司法、刑事政策，真的已經走向是在保護加害人，然後去踐踏被害人的情況，這也是為什麼今天會提出所謂的反廢死公投，當然我知道法務部也好，或是很多人主要說這是大法官的判決，我們今天不可以用公投，抱歉，這點我是不能接受的，因為公投法並沒有說憲法判決不能做公投事項，它講的是重大政策可以做公投事項。第二個，我不認為大法官高於人民，所以大法官今天設了所謂的十八銅人陣讓判死越來越難，為什麼今天杜承哲的判死這麼難？這個詐欺集團判死這麼難？也是跟大法官的憲法判決有關，更何況還有一件事馬上被認證，就是師鐸獎女老師的案子，五度判死最後被免死定讞，就在大法官憲法判決之後，第一時間最高法院出來直接引述是按照大法官最新憲法判決意旨，所以才改判免死定讞，這一點是我自己一直放在心上，包括剴剴案的這件事，我剛剛很謝謝部長，部長說願意去做刑度上的考量，這一點總是一個好的開始。但不管怎麼樣講，今天真的不能讓我們刑事政策扭曲到這種地步，非常背離人民的情感，讓我們善良的老百姓覺得沒有受到保護，謝謝部長。"],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昨天好我想還是想要先問一下那個簡訊的問題因為很多人收到這個簡訊之後都發現說他並沒有提供資料給那個霸團"},{"start":35.734,"end":57.927,"text":"那這應該是侵犯個資沒錯吧先跟你確定一下這要個案來調查個案調查那比如說我現在就秀兩個個案給你看有一個他是說他收到一個什麼下一代歲月靜好是因為你的負重前行這就是霸團傳給他的行銷簡訊但他認為他根本沒有簽署任何的文件霸團怎麼取得他的電話那這個個案是有侵犯個資嗎"},{"start":59.504,"end":75.214,"text":"這個要由相關對應的主管機關來調查說明你沒辦法喔我NCC範圍內沒辦法跨越權限來做但是因為剛剛根據很多委員跟相關機關的詢答這應該是有啦因為電話我們看下一頁電話應該是屬於各自的一部分喔在下一頁"},{"start":76.175,"end":89.983,"text":"那我現在要請教一下因為三大電信公司是不是都已經說他們不會已經沒有提供LBS了沒錯吧LBS是有但是要任務同意他才會提供要同意才提供對但是以我剛剛那個個案來講的話他是應該是沒有同意嗎"},{"start":94.986,"end":106.958,"text":"對不對因為他本人並不知道這兩個層次MBS要用戶同意另外一個是說發送簡訊的源頭端他就精準掌握這些資訊那都跟電信公司無關那就是要問那個源頭端"},{"start":109.554,"end":125.577,"text":"好 我再請教一下因為我們的簡訊的風險管理措施這邊就有提到說這個是去年10月公佈的對不對不去年10月公佈好 那這個公佈之後對於LBS的管制有更嚴格吧"},{"start":126.098,"end":146.541,"text":"LBS那是在各自一般法徵本來就是電信公司必須要依據各自法的規定你要使用目的外的利用必須要用戶同意或依法他目前是用使用者來同意來提供所以如果當事人明確拒絕接受行銷的話是可以拒絕對不對對沒錯那他已經收到了要怎麼拒絕"},{"start":147.895,"end":171.458,"text":"他如果已經說就是說今天今天是這樣子啊就是說因為這新聞爆出來嘛好所以很多人就想說啊我很討厭這種行為嘛我不想要收到類似這種罷免的簡訊那他想要拒絕那現在的拒絕機制是什麼這個up out的廣告其實三大電信的官網都有其實可以打所以要打到電信公司主動去告知上網上網都可以去登錄辦理"},{"start":172.837,"end":191.628,"text":"就要他們主動去拒絕去上網登記拒絕那這個部分NCT有幫忙宣導嗎還是說要三大電信公司宣導說因為現在有很多人收到這種簡訊不甘其擾如果你不想要介紹的話你可以上網去登錄你沒有宣導嗎我們也會繼續再加強宣導"},{"start":194.309,"end":215.425,"text":"好那第二個就是那電信公司跟一般的這種用戶有沒有簽定型化契約就是說他以後拒絕的時候他可以直接在契約擺明如果電信公司違法的話要負什麼樣的責任有嗎就你的了解是要負什麼責任他已經拒絕像類似這種他通通都不要然後也有簽合約可是他還是收到"},{"start":215.985,"end":232.933,"text":"個資的部分如果他電信公司沒有照的話他就沒有照的錯誤他就違反個資法20條那個非公司機關的一些不正當的利用不正當的利用那違反個資法嘛會那個當然那個檢方會去調查嘛那我現在講的是說那他跟電信公司之間的民事責任是什麼"},{"start":234.629,"end":256.793,"text":"民事責任看他們的契約其實沒有有審視過那個契約嗎因為現在大家都偏向在那個形式部分但是因為NCC主要是要管那個電信公司那可能電信公司也要負一定的企業責任就是說那如果還是譬如說剛剛講說這個責任可能在行銷公司但是電信公司也做行銷公司的其中一個工具嘛"},{"start":257.153,"end":277.847,"text":"那也連帶的影響到這個消費者嘛所以應該是也有連帶責任那這一塊的責任是什麼這一塊的責任其實是以電信管理法第四條電信行為的發生效果如發送人來負責以今天這種概念我是說簽了約那他也明確拒絕了他也明確拒絕然後但是他也是收到"},{"start":278.922,"end":299.992,"text":"那這怎麼這個NCC是怎麼去如果他有明確拒絕他又收到那就是中華電機這方面履歷上會有一些責任那你們有請那個電競公司加強這一塊嗎我們持續都有要求他們要因為這個事件我想要問就是說這個事件發生之後NCC到底做了什麼"},{"start":300.612,"end":322.298,"text":"我們做兩次行政調查除了調查之外有沒有去防避這件事情嗎第一個我剛剛問說你們有沒有這樣宣導嗎說大家如果不想收到的話比如說你剛剛講說可以上網登錄但大家知不知道可以上網登錄嗎第二件事情就是他明明可以明確拒絕那在合約上怎麼保障他拒絕權利如果電信公司違反這規定的時候他應該負責什麼樣的賠償"},{"start":325.199,"end":342.549,"text":"因為我如果問說什麼刑事責任大家又會推說什麼個案啊調查這些的就沒有沒有我現在講的是主管機關可以作為的部分嘛有我們去在修訂三大變性業者的各自宣告事項裡頭也有發佈相關的一些FB跟新聞稿就告訴他們說就是這個事件之後"},{"start":343.45,"end":357.728,"text":"我們是在事件之前就通案性那還是發生的嘛所以你們有沒有再進一步的作為有沒有我們在這兩天會再進行再進一步的宣導說這個up out的機制好 謝謝那接下來想問一下那個中選會中選會"},{"start":362.342,"end":382.04,"text":"這個是有人傳給我的啦就是一個聯署書然後他是反映說有人找他去簽名但是那個罷免聯署書上面把他的名字還有出生年月日身份證字號跟戶籍地都已經打好了然後去找他簽名請問一下這個有沒有違反個資 中委會"},{"start":385.236,"end":403.688,"text":"這個是要看他如何取得那些資料那是另外一個問題沒有那個當事人說他不知道他並沒有找他簽名的人他根本不認識啊那這樣有沒有侵犯個資如果說是個資的資料的來源如果是非法蒐集的話那什麼樣叫非法蒐集"},{"start":404.912,"end":433.622,"text":"那當然就是有可能是如果說以連署的而言就是不是他並沒有提供給找他連署的人這個資料嘛那人家居然有他的資料然後找上門來找他簽名有可能那中學會有沒有去查這個狀況我沒有見到個案的相關所以如果說有個案跟中研會檢舉的話中研會會去查是不是那如果最後發現說這個是有違反格子會踢掉嗎"},{"start":436.759,"end":461.284,"text":"如果是偽造不過重點不是說這些資料而是說你當事人你是不是是否簽名蓋章是否簽名蓋章所以這個跟中選會提不提要無關應該是這樣講因為中選會只認定的是說他是不是本人簽名但是有沒有侵犯克制這個就是要問問那個法務部其他的資料我問一下部長好不好請教一下部長"},{"start":465.1,"end":475.62,"text":"部長如果是這樣的話有違反個資嗎有沒有違反個資是個案的做一個對我現在就問那另外就委員關心的這個個資的收集處理"},{"start":477.048,"end":500.603,"text":"那個處理那個利用齁那個我們看這個收集就要各自的第15條第16條以及第19條第20條這個收集處理利用要合乎這四個法條以及第6條敏感性的個人資料的一些法定法我的問題很明確啦就是說如果有一個人在家裡面然後有的人拿幫他把連鎖的所有資料都打好來找他簽名"},{"start":501.684,"end":511.107,"text":"那他覺得我們並沒有提供資料給你過啊你怎麼會我資料叫我簽名這樣有沒有違反個資這個是19條的一個問題那如果說來加愛護去弄我認為這個有沒有違反個資這可以另外再不是來加愛護他資料都打好連那個身份證字號跟出生年月日都有如果說這個個資的一個個資的一個所有人個人資料的所有人他認為這樣有違反"},{"start":529.093,"end":547.753,"text":"第19條的一個規定的話他可以法條規定跟他認不認為無關啊我現在是問部長你覺得這樣子有沒有違反你只要講有沒有違反就好這個個字是怎麼來的他就覺得他就在懷疑啊這是怎麼來的他如果懷疑的話當然可以提出告訴嘛他認為有犯罪嫌疑他可以提出告訴那我們就會辦案就會啟動申辦所以這樣子應該是有吧"},{"start":550.956,"end":579.113,"text":"那這個要個案的我沒辦法跟你講這就是有或沒有這樣子還沒有我沒有講沒有我說這樣子這樣沒辦法認定嗎這個不能用這個整個辦案不能說直接就這樣認定但是這個如果說那個被害那個個資的所有人他認為這樣有這樣的得中因為我的個資可能有受到侵害囉那這樣的話當然他就可以來告那部長那我順便問一下我想問一下凱爾案因為"},{"start":579.853,"end":606.547,"text":"後來你最新的說法是有十幾萬的人在公共平台不是最新的說法就是說沒有沒有我還沒問啦部長我還沒問我的問題是我們沒辦法去接受這個部長我都還沒問我都還沒問問題這個我們這是人神共憤啦我都還沒問問題部長這個我想這個大家我們要以最大的一個力量去讓這些法制做一個完美來充分來保護這些兒童早上您的這個我因為有看新聞報導的啦"},{"start":608.168,"end":614.692,"text":"我們就新聞稿然後那個不是說我早上改成好沒關係你後來的說法是說你不要那麼緊張我都還沒有問問題部長不要那麼緊張我都還沒有問問你知道我要問什麼嗎"},{"start":623.007,"end":643.556,"text":"我都還沒有問我的問題啊我只是提到說我想要關心這個案子你就啪啪講一大堆我都還沒講我要問什麼我是想問說因為第一時間那個時候有十幾萬人在公共平台上面表示說希望虐童致死能夠納入唯一死刑然後或者是無期徒刑不得假釋嘛那當時法務部是說不可能嘛"},{"start":643.996,"end":670.609,"text":"但後來又改說要研議中那我是想問說法務部後來為什麼會有這樣的一個改變中間是考量到什麼所以一開始是覺得不可能後來又覺得可以研議那你們考量的點是什麼這個本來就是對向來對我們對兒童少年的這些權力的保護我們是不予以利用那為什麼一開始說不行那這個沒有說這個是一個公共裡面的一個"},{"start":672.594,"end":700.579,"text":"選項的一個問題喔這個我們看裡面的內文的話我們是沒有這樣的一個講的喔所以你從頭到尾都沒有說不行我們可以講說這個在研議喔我們可以說一開始是說不行嘛後來說研議中嘛那你的轉折的點在哪裡這個本來就是我們就是一項一項就是我們向來就是要充分落實保障的這些的權利那為什麼一開始就不行"},{"start":701.179,"end":713.224,"text":"我們沒有說這個是一個選項的一個問題但是我們這個之前是我們沒有矛盾的沒有矛盾所以從頭到尾都是說演繹中我們是把著重在我們著重在做現狀的法律的一個說明"},{"start":723.049,"end":738.999,"text":"所以之後是有可能 就是終身監禁不得假食 這有可能的你們在研議中嘛 對不對 有可能的嘛你們朝這個方向是不是這個我想 委員齁 這個我們剛才我有說明過齁 這個"},{"start":740.52,"end":741.121,"text":"我們現在講的是286條啦"},{"start":762.361,"end":789.632,"text":"286條不是講傷人罪因為這個這個寧願的不是286條這個還有先等到271條286條還有那個302之1條那個好幾個法條對所以我們要重新再做一個檢視把這個對落實對未滿7歲的甚至不要說未滿7歲未滿18歲的這些的保護我們要更加的一個徹底那我們現在在研理看如何把這個法制做一個完備"},{"start":790.552,"end":816.75,"text":"那大概什麼時候你們會演繹出來另外那個關心假釋的問題本來我們假釋有殺人殺人未遂10年以上違反社會治安的這些犯罪我們本來就已經提出不得假釋現在行政院那你剛剛前面一個大概什麼時候演繹出來我們近期內會我們盡速來做一個演繹我想我們會加快這個速度這個經委很放心好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1186,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時35分）主席好，麻煩請NCC代理主委。"],["主席：麻煩NCC代理主委。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：主委好。我想先請教一下有關簡訊的問題，因為很多人收到這個簡訊之後都發現，他們並沒有提供資料給那個罷團嘛！這應該是侵犯個資沒錯吧？先跟你確定一下。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這要個案調查。"],["葉委員元之：個案調查，譬如我現在就秀兩個個案給你看，有一個他是說收到「下一代歲月靜好，是因為你的負重前行！」這就是罷團傳給他的行銷簡訊，但他認為他根本沒有簽署任何的文件，罷團怎麼取得他的電話？這個個案是有侵犯個資嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這個要由相關對應的主管機關來調查說明，我們NCC的範圍內沒有辦法跨越權限來處理。"],["葉委員元之：你們沒辦法。根據剛剛很多委員及相關機關的詢答，這應該是有啦！因為電話應該是屬於個資的一部分，現在請教一下，因為三大電信公司是不是都已經表示他們已經沒有提供LBS了，沒錯吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：LBS是有，但是要用戶同意，他們才會提供。"],["葉委員元之：要同意才提供？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["葉委員元之：但是以我剛剛那個個案來講的話，他應該是沒有同意嘛，對不對？因為他本人並不知道嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這有兩個層次，LBS是要用戶同意，另外是發送簡訊的源頭端就精準掌握這些資訊，就跟電信公司無關，要問那個源頭端為何那麼精準。"],["葉委員元之：問那個源頭端。我再請教一下，有關這個簡訊的風險管理措施是去年10月公布的，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不是，我們是112年公布……"],["葉委員元之：好，這個公布之後，對於LBS的管制有更嚴格吧？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：LBS在個資法中，電信公司本來就必須依據個資法的規定，要另外的利用，必須要用戶同意或依法使用，目前是需使用者同意來提供。"],["葉委員元之：對，如果當事人明確拒絕接受行銷的話，是可以拒絕，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，沒錯。"],["葉委員元之：好，他已經收到了，要怎麼拒絕？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：他如果已經收……"],["葉委員元之：今天是這樣子啦！因為這新聞爆出來，所以很多人就想說：「我很討厭這種行為，不想要收到類似這種罷免的簡訊。」他想要拒絕，現在的拒絕機制是什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這個opt-out的管道，其實三大電信業者的官網都有，可以打到他們客服。"],["葉委員元之：所以要打到電信公司主動去告知？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：上網都可以登錄辦理。"],["葉委員元之：就是要他們主動上網登記拒絕？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就跟使用者……"],["葉委員元之：NCC針對這個部分有幫忙宣導嗎？還是要請三大電信公司宣導：因為現在有很多人收到這種簡訊，不堪其擾，如果你不想要收到的話，你可以上網去登錄。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們現在有宣導。"],["葉委員元之：你們有宣導嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們也會繼續加強宣導。"],["葉委員元之：好，第二個是電信公司跟一般的這種用戶有沒有簽定型化契約？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有。"],["葉委員元之：就是他以後拒絕的時候，可以直接拒絕擺明，如果電信公司違法的話，要負什麼樣的責任，有嗎？就你的了解，這要負什麼責任？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：都有對……"],["葉委員元之：如果他已經拒絕，像類似這種，他通通都不要，然後也有簽合約，可是他還是收到。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：個資的部分，如果電信公司沒有依照規定，他們就違反個資法第二十條，非公務機關一些不正當的利用。"],["葉委員元之：不正當的利用是違反個資法，當然檢方會去調查嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["葉委員元之：我現在講的是他跟電信公司之間的民事責任是什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：民事責任，看他們之間的契約，其實一般……"],["葉委員元之：你有審視過那個契約嗎？因為現在大家都偏向在刑事部分，因為NCC主要是要管電信公司……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：個資法也有民事責任。"],["葉委員元之：對，可能電信公司也要負一定的企業責任。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有。"],["葉委員元之：譬如剛剛提到的這責任可能在行銷公司，但電信公司也做行銷公司的其中一個工具嘛！也連帶的影響到消費者，所以應該是也有連帶責任，那這一塊的責任是什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：電信管理法第四條規定，電信行為的發送效果由發送人來負責，以今天這種態樣……"],["葉委員元之：我是說簽了約，他也明確拒絕了，但是他還是收到，那NCC是怎麼去……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：如果他有明確拒絕，又收到，那就是中華電信這方面履約上會有一些責任。"],["葉委員元之：好，那你們有請電信公司加強這一塊嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們持續都有在要求他們要……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，我想要問的就是這個事件發生之後，NCC到底做了什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們做了兩次行政調查。"],["葉委員元之：除了調查之外，有沒有去防弊？第一、我剛剛問你們有沒有加強宣導？大家如果不想收到的話，比如你剛剛講可以上網登錄，但大家知不知道可以上網登錄？第二件事情就是他明明可以明確拒絕，那在合約上怎麼保障他拒絕的權利？如果電信公司違反這個規定的時候，應該負責什麼樣的賠償？因為我如果問什麼刑事責任，大家又會推說什麼個案、調查這些，我現在講的是主管機關可以作為的部分。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有，我們去年在修訂三大電信業者的個資宣告事項裡頭有發布相關的一些FB跟新聞稿，就告訴他們說……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，就是這個事件之後。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們是在事件之前就通案性就……"],["葉委員元之：那還是發生了嘛，所以你們有沒有再進一步的作為？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：這一兩天我們會再進一步的宣導這個opt-out的機制。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。","接下來想問一下中選會，這是有人傳給我的一個連署書，他是反映有人找他去簽名，但是那個罷免連署書上面把他的名字、出生年月日、身分證字號跟戶籍地都已經打好了，然後找他簽名，請問一下這個有沒有違反個資法？"],["蔡處長金誥：這要看他如何取得那些資料，那是另外一個問題。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，當事人說他不知道，找他簽名的人，他根本不認識，那這樣有沒有侵犯個資？"],["蔡處長金誥：如果個資的來源是非法蒐集的話，當然就有……"],["葉委員元之：那什麼樣叫非法蒐集？"],["蔡處長金誥：如果以連署而言，就不是……"],["葉委員元之：他並沒有提供給找他連署的人個資，人家居然有他的資料，然後找上門來找他簽名。"],["蔡處長金誥：有可能。"],["葉委員元之：那中選會有沒有去查這個狀況？"],["蔡處長金誥：我沒有接到個案的相關……"],["葉委員元之：如果有個案跟中選會檢舉的話，中選會會去查，是不是？如果最後發現這有違反個資法，會踢掉嗎？"],["蔡處長金誥：重點不是這些資料，而是當事人是否有簽名、蓋章。"],["葉委員元之：所以這個跟中選會踢不踢掉無關？應該是這樣講，因為中選會只認定他是不是本人簽名。"],["蔡處長金誥：是。"],["葉委員元之：但是有沒有侵犯個資，就要問法務部。"],["蔡處長金誥：其他的資料是……"],["葉委員元之：我請教一下部長，部長，如果是這樣的話，有違反個資法嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有沒有違反個資法是就個案做一個認定。"],["葉委員元之：對，我現在就問……"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外就委員關心的個資的蒐集、處理、利用，這就要看個資法第十五條、第十六條、第十九條及第二十條，這個蒐集、處理、利用要合乎這四個法條，以及第六條敏感性個人資料的規定。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，部長，我的問題很明確，就是如果有一個人在家裡面，然後有人幫他把連署書的所有資料都打好了，來找他簽名，那他覺得他並沒有提供資料給別人，別人怎麼會有他的資料，叫他簽名，這樣有沒有違反個資法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是個資法第十九條的問題，如果是挨家挨戶去弄，這有沒有違反個資，這可以另外再……"],["葉委員元之：不是挨家挨戶，資料都打好，連身分證字號、出生年月日都有。"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果這個個資的所有人認為這樣有違反第十九條的規定的話，他可以……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，法條規定跟他認不認為無關，我現在是問部長，你覺得這樣有沒有違反法律？你只要講有沒有違反就好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個個資是怎麼來的？如果……"],["葉委員元之：他就在懷疑啊，是怎麼來的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：他如果懷疑的話，當然可以提出告訴，他認為有犯罪嫌疑，他可以提出告訴，那我們就會啟動偵辦。"],["葉委員元之：這樣應該是有吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要看個案，我沒辦法跟你講這就是有或沒有。"],["葉委員元之：這樣子還沒有喔？就是他的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有講沒有，這要……"],["葉委員元之：這樣沒辦法認定嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官辦案不能直接叫誰認定，如果個資的所有人有這樣的疑慮：欸！我的個資可能有受到侵害囉，這樣的話，當然他就可以來告。"],["葉委員元之：部長，我順便問一下剴剴案，後來你最新的說法是有十幾萬的人在公共平台。"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是最新的說法，就是說……"],["葉委員元之：沒有、沒有，我還沒問啦。部長，我的問題都……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們一向對這種的，我們沒辦法接受……"],["葉委員元之：部長、部長，我都還沒問問題欸。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是人神共憤啦。"],["葉委員元之：我都還沒問問題，部長！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想大家要以最大的力量，讓這些法制完備，來充分保護這些兒童跟少年。"],["葉委員元之：早上您的……因為我看新聞報導……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們就有發新聞稿，那個不是我早上改說辭。"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，你後來的說法是……部長，你不要那麼緊張，我都還沒問問題，部長！部長！不要那麼緊張，我都還沒有問問題。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我要嚴正的聲明。"],["葉委員元之：你知道我要問什麼嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：你問剴剴命案，我就闡述我對……"],["葉委員元之：我都還沒有問問題，我只是提到我關心這個案子，你就啪啪啪講一大堆，我都還沒講我要問什麼。我是想問，因為第一時間有十幾萬人在公共平台上面表示希望虐童致死能夠納入唯一死刑，或者是無期徒刑不得假釋，當時法務部說不可能，但後來又改說要研議中，我是想問法務部後來為什麼會有這樣一個改變？中間是考量到什麼？一開始是覺得不可能，後來又覺得可以研議，那你們考量的點是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：向來我們對兒童、少年權利的保護是不遺餘力。"],["葉委員元之：那為什麼一開始說不行？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是一個公共選項的問題，看內文我們是沒有這樣講的。"],["葉委員元之：所以你從頭到尾都沒有說不行？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們可以說這個叫研議。"],["葉委員元之：沒有、沒有，一開始是說不行嘛，後來說在研議中，那你的轉折點在哪裡？"],["鄭部長銘謙：本來我們一向就是要充分落實保障他們的權利。"],["葉委員元之：那為什麼一開始說不行？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們沒有說，這是一個選項的問題，但是我們前後沒有矛盾。"],["葉委員元之：所以從頭到尾都是說研議中？"],["鄭部長銘謙：你看那個內文，我們是著重在法律現狀的說明，但我想那麼多年的時間，我們一定看到了，不要說……"],["葉委員元之：所以之後是不是有可能終身監禁，不得假釋？你們在研議中，所以有可能的，你們朝這個方向，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我剛才有說明過凌虐有很多類型，剛才有說致死是不是可以增加死刑的選項，因為現在最高是無期徒刑，如果這些人一開始又以凌虐當殺人手段，這就到殺人罪了，殺人罪本來就……"],["葉委員元之：我們現在講的是第二百八十六條，不是講殺人罪。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為凌虐的不只第二百八十六條，還牽扯到第二百七十一條、第三百零二條之一，好幾個法條，所以我們要整個重新再做一個檢視，落實對未滿18歲兒少的保護。我們現在還在研議，看如何把這個法制完備。"],["葉委員元之：大概什麼時候會研議出來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們現在已經研議，另外假釋的問題，假釋有殺人、殺人未遂、十年以上重大違反社會治安的犯罪，我們本來就已經提出不得假釋，現在行政院……"],["葉委員元之：那剛剛前面一個大概什麼時候會研議出來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們近期內會儘速來做研議，我想我們會加快速度，這個請委員放心。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束；委員詢問時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請機關儘速送交個別委員及本會委員；委員林倩綺所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面回復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","張啓楷","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","羅智強","王鴻薇","葉元之","林倩綺"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、內\n政部警政署署長、中央選舉委員會、數位發展部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有\n限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「民眾反應收到罷免連署簡訊，顯非商業廣告目的利用，質疑個資\n洩漏而侵害人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145202_00002"}}},{"id":"161564","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161564","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f060df51bc086ce8c4239b9191e0d12eea46e8f406cf3b0734ee4908f1f42fde8f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:17:25 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麻煩副秘書長 法務部政部長 政部長NCC主委 NCC主委代理主委 代理主委還有中華電信副總好"},{"start":35.839,"end":54.124,"text":"其實今天我們主要是談在這個簡訊就是霸團組織顯然是已經很精準的針對了地區發了這個相關的簡訊那這個簡訊到底有沒有違反相關的個資法那麼根據自由時報的報導"},{"start":56.124,"end":84.387,"text":"自由時報報導引述司法院說有違法可以提起救濟那司法院說近期各地進行的公職人員罷免案目前尚處於罷免選罷法規定的提議或連署間段民眾收到罷免連署簡訊可能涉及違反各自法那我想請問一下我們的副秘書長請問一下到底有沒有違反各自法"},{"start":94.354,"end":107.516,"text":"請說這個部分我們剛剛在報告中有說就是還是要看到看他的整個那個程序因為司法這個最後事實上是在那個尾端所以要看那個個案所呈現的這些狀況才能夠做就按照這個我這個解訊內容給你看啦"},{"start":108.854,"end":136.278,"text":"好 給你看 因為它這個是有它有鎖定區域嘛它不會到台北來讓我去憑證去去簽聯署書啊它也不會讓我去新店簽聯署書啊那它的發送是有鎖定在它的選區這樣有沒有違反各自法那個報告委員 這剛才不管是哪一端 但是最後這個行為有沒有違反各自法"},{"start":138.223,"end":141.805,"text":"各自有被受到保護嗎?那自由時報是假新聞嗎?他說霸團簡訊可能涉嫌違法"},{"start":160.951,"end":170.69,"text":"所以你現在不敢講了好 你不敢講了 請問一下那個 法務部正部長像這個行為有沒有違反各自法"},{"start":172.369,"end":193.683,"text":"這個行為有沒有 這要做個案的認定那是個資法有沒有 那個處罰是要違反那個第六條還有第十五條 第十六條 第十九跟第二十條就是說對違反那個個資的 因為個資的收集處理利用都有法定的一個嚴格的標準嘛那你違反的話 這個如果說有人違反的話"},{"start":196.325,"end":200.512,"text":"這個我的意思就是說他可以很精準的在這個區域裡面發送給這個區域的"},{"start":205.082,"end":229.281,"text":"這個就是簡訊發送給這個區域的受眾那這沒有各自外洩的問題嗎就是我們就看個人資料的定義個人資料保護法上的個人資料的定義好部長我要問那個自然人還有一些什麼呢比如說出生年日身分證號碼電話號碼等等可以直接間接識別該個人的資料也就是說"},{"start":230.262,"end":242.265,"text":"如果單純的一個電話號碼我們也沒辦法知道這個是誰的如果說那個簡訊說麻煩你來支持這樣才有違反個資法這個就是很明確的個人資料如果他只有一個單純電話沒辦法去辨識這到底是誰的電話無法辨識這個要往前無法辨識無法辨識他有沒有違反個資可能在這部分"},{"start":257.189,"end":276.167,"text":"可能這要再往前去推是不是有沒有提供那部長我請問一下像這個案例因為民眾都很緊張那我們會針對這有沒有違反各司法來做調查嗎只要有人來告訴告發那個訴訟人員228告訴我們就來查到底有沒有違反各司法"},{"start":276.994,"end":286.242,"text":"好 那我想請問一下 因為像我是被罷免人 我們很多委員是被罷免人那 假使被罷免人 這是罷團發送的嘛那假使被罷免人 針對這個區域 也發送這樣的簡訊就說 哎呀 拜託 你要出來投票 要投不同意罷免 請問一下"},{"start":299.17,"end":308.332,"text":"要不要辦所以我有很擔心的事啊因為現在都是辦藍不辦綠嘛所以我們擔心的是罷團這樣子都沒問題司法院也說看個案然後法務部也說看個案然後等到呢等到被罷免人也同樣的狀況也同樣的去買簡訊的時候那可能這不一樣嘛這不是說讓你去連署嘛就是拜託你投票啊請你投票不同意罷免啊哇 就有事了"},{"start":328.436,"end":329.579,"text":"因為你們這雙標是很厲害的啊這個如果各支法如果說這個街道檢修各支法的"},{"start":336.021,"end":358.017,"text":"的問題的話 那是屬於接到簡訊的人接到簡訊的人 他是被害人嘛對 民眾就告發啦民眾怎麼沒有告發咧你看他還提供簡訊給大家 對不對看看有沒有成立 他怎麼樣的一個到底是怎麼個人資料的外洩的一個問題所以啊 部長 會不會雙標啊不會雙標啦 這個"},{"start":362.161,"end":373.844,"text":"這個辦案本來就是依照證據來認定犯罪事實沒有證據因為你們雙標很厲害啊沒有沒有 這個委員我們不能夠這樣直接就給他貼這個雙標這個我們要維持一個純淨的一個辦案空間有證據就辦嘛 那我們會辦與不辦之間在於你們嘛來 那個我想請問一下NCC因為有關於簡訊"},{"start":387.372,"end":413.434,"text":"集中在特殊條件這個是在這個簡訊這些商業行為非常普遍比如說因為其實一般商業用的更廣啊比如說有些建商我做一個建案我就是要有些特殊的有些特殊我就是鎖定在這個區域的或者是呢比如說一些投資理財的當然投資理財"},{"start":416.937,"end":440.408,"text":"詐騙簡訊最多嘛所以呢現在我知道你們有一個防止詐騙有關於這些簡訊就是這些電信資料的管理的指引嘛有沒有有嘛對不對那這個這個當然它原來的出發點是防止詐騙因為詐騙行為太多所以你們這個指引請問一下上路了沒有"},{"start":442.227,"end":466.376,"text":"112年就上路了持續在修正當中商業簡訊如果有網址連結有電話號碼還有短碼部分我們都會來封阻除非他經過驗證符合正當實驗會第100單請問一下在指引裡面他如果去限定他的特殊條件我剛講他的特殊條件別說他必須我限定在桃園"},{"start":468.317,"end":495.893,"text":"地區我限定在台北市或台北市的哪幾個區域或者我限定在他比如說他有過投資行為類似這種商業化的這種簡訊請問一下如果在這些的就是販賣簡訊院就是幫企業去那個投放這簡訊這個在不在你們指引的這個管理的範圍裡面"},{"start":496.789,"end":516.064,"text":"不在但是在原來的我們地形化區也有要求還有各自法本身也有要求它是你要提供LBS服務必須要用戶同意才可以提供才可以提供對就是經過合法或使用者同意那我請問一下因為這個事件呢今天有那個什麼請問一下你們說呢"},{"start":520.632,"end":547.097,"text":"因為調查了解三家行動通信業者都沒有提供簡訊發送門號清單及基地台區域廣播技術LBS給簡訊代發業者就是說我們的三大電信業者都沒有提供那我請問一下這些簡訊代發業者的資料拿來的那就要問簡訊代發業者手上的資料其他公司是如何提供資料給他如何他可以把它歸類對不對"},{"start":548.513,"end":559.339,"text":"那就請教公司的資訊來源就不知道怎麼來源來來來 我請中華電信喔因為他們是你的客戶嘛來是 林副總是"},{"start":561.238,"end":584.01,"text":"因為你們是上游嘛中游就是這些簡訊代發業者所以你們沒有給他們他們資料哪來的怎麼生出來的其實他們的資料我們大概無從去了解無從要求無從理解不知道他怎麼來的"},{"start":585.03,"end":606.78,"text":"他自己可以生成出來跟委員報告每一家公司他在經營相關的業務都有他的神通廣大他應該都要依照各自保護法來做相關的我就是問你嘛既然他是你的客戶你沒有給他這個資料那他資料哪來的怎麼從天上掉下來還是從地底下竄上來"},{"start":609.282,"end":618.727,"text":"哪來的 不知道電信公司在這個案裡面就是純粹的網路通訊傳送的這個角色都不知道好 那請問一下 NCC 主管機關請問一下 按照我們的電信業者說我們要給他們但是簡訊代發業者卻有這些資料你們查過沒"},{"start":630.987,"end":658.069,"text":"我們的職權範圍 措用法的職權範圍內就是電信業者這部分我們調查過兩次行政調查那簡單再跟委員回報 剛剛說有兩個層次 第一個層次是用戶同意LPS 第二個層次是A傳給B傳給C C是電信公司最後傳給使用者 B是簡訊大發業者A最上一端的行銷公司 他為什麼會有資料要由這個行銷公司來說明 他要負這個法律責任 他這要怎麼取得是合法還是"},{"start":659.61,"end":685.498,"text":"那所以這個調查責任是不是在NCC不是不在NCC在哪裡啊在它對應的相關的主管機關它對應主管機關是什麼它是行銷公司目前初步應該是經濟部經濟部齁經濟部應該包商包海齁那因為它違法個資法的問題最近法務部大量在查違反個資法的問題啊那所以請問一下部長法務部部長這該不該你們查"},{"start":689.722,"end":703.258,"text":"反正那個有涉及到犯罪的 有經過告訴高發等等的 那當然我們會啟動調查那不管 不用說什麼個資啦 如果說還有什麼其他的犯罪 包括像這種可能涉及到法案秘密的問題"},{"start":705.12,"end":706.601,"text":"過去有查過嗎這個我沒有統計的資料怎麼會沒有查過這麼多詐騙很多詐騙就是透過簡訊的詐騙我剛剛講說簡訊簡訊的問題我剛剛講說簡訊這些所發的簡訊有"},{"start":727.29,"end":741.392,"text":"被設定特殊條件並不是在選舉啊其實過去選舉我直接說我們也常常有很多的政治人物啊就是到了中秋節啊過年啊他也會發送簡訊嘛給你拜年啊什麼之類的"},{"start":742.774,"end":762.636,"text":"那在一般的商業行為裡面也非常多那最氾濫的確實就是詐騙因為最害怕的就是詐騙嘛所以照理說你們應該早就針對這一些因為防詐騙早就應該啟動相關的調查怎麼會到現在都告訴我好像沒有人在管啊"},{"start":763.177,"end":765.519,"text":"而且你不知道他的資料哪裡來的那部長根據你們過去的調查因為我剛剛講說詐騙最多根據你們過去的調查這些典訊代發業者如果有這些特殊條件他的資料哪裡來的"},{"start":787.182,"end":792.144,"text":"因為NC說他只查電訊業者電訊業者說我們沒有啊我們沒有提供啊所以你都不知道犯罪集團的問題當他變成詐騙詐騙行為這麼多的時候他已經不是個案他變通案啊請問他資料哪裡來的"},{"start":804.825,"end":809.43,"text":"這個要每個犯罪的你也不知道這個每個犯罪類型疑問都三不知我不是疑問三不知這個我沒辦法跟你講說到底是哪個案件是從哪裡來的所以這個有些是有些廣告頭髮商有些是脫波的人是給的嘛那有些是要怎麼收集的就是最原始的那個那個前端的那個"},{"start":824.464,"end":834.07,"text":"是誰收集處理他把這些賣掉所以呢我在這邊不要為了cover這件事情來部長不要著急喔我要講的就是說不要為了cover這件事情這個事實上在簡訊就是這些商業簡訊裡面已經非常慣常慣常的這些資料就是他常常是用特殊因為他要精準行銷嘛"},{"start":851.019,"end":856.062,"text":"因為它不能海量發送 海量發送實在太貴了它要精準行銷所以這個照理講 尤其我們詐騙這麼多你們早就應該去整理出它的樣態啊 怎麼到現在什麼都不知道好 我這邊只有兩個要求第一個要求 像這樣子如果你們確定它是有違反各司法之嫌那你們該調查就要調查不要為了去cover哪些集團"},{"start":880.658,"end":883.759,"text":"第二個 請你不要辦藍不辦綠不要辦藍不辦綠我們同樣的同樣到時候 罷團可以用被罷免的人也同樣可以用"},{"start":897.239,"end":920.428,"text":"是不是 應該是這樣的一個標準所以我要講的就是說該調查要調查第二個 在調查的時候就請你不要再雙標了我知道你今天下午要開一個記者會我都不曉得你們到底要有什麼樣的資訊記者會是要告訴大家我們這一年司法來的豐功偉業就是"},{"start":921.808,"end":925.952,"text":"關了一個在野黨的主席對不對然後抄了八個在野黨的黨部關了多少的人家黨部的主委逃掉多少的經濟的重要的這些經濟犯我不曉得你今天下午是不是要公布這些啦當民意對於司法的公信力滿意度這麼低的時候"},{"start":949.689,"end":964.381,"text":"請你們拿出真正的民眾關心的這個證物而不是在繼續的為政治服務我不是關心幾個案件我們是關心所有的被害人我不是關心幾個案件我們關心的可多了"},{"start":964.881,"end":969.042,"text":"所以剛才因為有限時間關係像剛剛羅志強委員所提的反正我們呢我們黨團也已經提出相關的這個法案的修正也希望法務部能夠採納能夠回應13萬多人在網路上大家的一個期待這個情況我相信這部分我們就已經在修法了我們會更者的情況能夠更加保護我們的這些的"},{"start":991.668,"end":1019.446,"text":"兒少 我們絕對不能允許這些的剛才那個主席有跟我們講 我們那個包括是不是真的要殺人 或者是一個致死的是不是在一個家庭我們都在研究如果0月7歲以下0月7歲以下兒童致死是不是應該可以處以死刑 或者無期徒刑因為剛才有講喔你淫虐這麼小的小孩你就知道一定對他造成非常大的傷害委員 我的愛心 我對同情 我絕對不會輸給你的啦"},{"start":1022.54,"end":1043.681,"text":"我們今天在講法耶你不是在跟我選舉啊這個不是部長你不需要這麼多的政治語言這不是政治語言因為對這些兒童我們真的是天理這些的殘害真是天理燃容所以 淩孽幼童就是我說七歲以下七歲以下的淩孽幼童"},{"start":1045.082,"end":1055.148,"text":"這個其實不是叫過失啊這就是故意了嘛 這個沒有過失啊 這個絕對不是故意的喔好 所以我們 因為我們這個 可能委員不知道那個起訴的法條他會召開公聽會 排公聽會到時候也會審查相關法案希望法務部拿出最大最大的誠意的支持這個委員妳放心 這部分我們會用"},{"start":1067.874,"end":1073.536,"text":"以最周全的保護的一個方式我想這個是回憶名義啦我們一定會回憶名義這個請委員放心那我想這個對兒童少年的一個保護我們一定要不遺餘力那我們也謝謝委員帶他一起來來推動好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1059,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時17分）謝謝主席，我請司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長。"],["王委員鴻薇：法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：鄭部長。"],["王委員鴻薇：NCC主委。"],["主席：NCC代理主委。"],["王委員鴻薇：還有中華電信。"],["主席：副總。"],["王委員鴻薇：其實今天我們主要是談簡訊，罷團組織顯然已經很精準地針對地區發了相關的簡訊，這個簡訊到底有沒有違反相關的個資法，根據自由時報的報導，自由時報報導引述司法院說：「有違法可提起救濟。」司法院說近期各地進行的公職人員罷免案，目前尚處於選罷法規定的提議或連署階段，民眾收到罷免連署簡訊可能涉及違反個資法，我想請問副秘書長，到底有沒有違反個資法？請說。"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分我們剛在報告中有說，還是要看它的整個程序，因為司法最後事實上是在尾端，所以要看個案所呈現的狀況才能夠做判斷。"],["王委員鴻薇：我簡訊內容給你看了，因為這個是有鎖定區域，它不會到臺北來讓我去平鎮簽聯署書，也不會讓我去新店簽聯署書，它的發送是有鎖定在他的選區，這樣有沒有違反個資法？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，剛才……"],["王委員鴻薇：不管是哪一端，最後這個行為有沒有違反個資法？個資有受到保護嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，剛才主管機關對這個部分也有非常多的說明，司法必須要有個案出來的時候，在最後的時候……"],["王委員鴻薇：那自由時報是假新聞嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：他說罷團簡訊可能涉嫌違法，所以你現在不敢講了。請問法務部鄭部長，像這個行為有沒有違反個資法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個行為有沒有違反個資法要就個案的認定，但是個資法處罰是看違反第六條、第十五條、第十六條、第十九條跟第二十條，因為個資蒐集、處理、利用都有法定嚴格的標準，如果有人違反的話……"],["王委員鴻薇：我的意思就是他可以很精準地在這個區域裡面，發送簡訊給這個區域的受眾，這沒有個資外洩的問題嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我們看個人資料保護法個人資料的定義……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，部長，我要問……"],["鄭部長銘謙：它是指自然人，還有比如出生年月日、身分證號碼、電話號碼等等，得以直接或間接識別該個人的資料，也就是說，如果單純的一個電話號碼，我們沒辦法知道這個是誰的，如果簡訊說：王某某，麻煩你來支持。這個……"],["王委員鴻薇：這樣才有違反個資法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個就是很明確的個人資料，所以如果只用一個單純電話，無法辨識這到底是誰的電話。"],["王委員鴻薇：無法辨識嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個要往前……"],["王委員鴻薇：無法辨識啦！無法辨識他有沒有違反個資。"],["鄭部長銘謙：無法辨識這是誰的電話，這部分可能要再往前去推，是不是有提供這些……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，請問像這個案例，因為民眾都很緊張，我們會針對這有沒有違反個資法來調查嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：只要有人來告訴、告發，依據訴訟法第二百二十八條，我們就來查到底有沒有違反個資法。"],["王委員鴻薇：我想請問一下，像我是被罷免人，我們很多委員是被罷免人，因為這個簡訊是罷團發送的，假使被罷免人針對這個區域也發送這樣的簡訊：拜託你要出來投票、要投不同意罷免。請問一下，要不要辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：只要有人……我想這個都是按照證據來認定跟調查。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為現在都是辦藍不辦綠，所以我們擔心的是罷團這樣都沒問題，司法院也說看個案，法務部也說看個案，然後等到被罷免人也同樣去買簡訊的時候，可能不一樣的內容，不是讓你去連署，就是拜託你投票、請你投票不同意罷免，哇！就有事了！因為你們的雙標是很厲害的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：不過跟委員解釋，那個不是雙標，如果接到簡訊，有個資法問題的話，那是屬於接到簡訊的人是被害人。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，民眾就告發啦！民眾怎麼沒有告發呢？你看他還提供簡訊給大家，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果告發我們就會辦，我們就依法來調查、釐清，看看有沒有成立個人資料外洩的問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，會不會雙標？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不會雙標啦！辦案本來就是依照證據來認定犯罪事實，沒有證據……"],["王委員鴻薇：因為你們雙標很厲害啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，委員，不能直接貼雙標的標籤，我們要維持一個純淨的辦案空間，有證據就辦，我們會……"],["王委員鴻薇：辦與不辦之間在於你們嘛！","我想請問NCC，有關簡訊集中在特殊條件，簡訊這些商業行為非常普遍，其實一般商業用得更廣，比如有些建商做一個建案，就是要有些特殊條件，鎖定在這個區域的，或比如一些投資理財，當然投資理財詐騙簡訊最多，所以我知道你們有一個防止詐騙，有關簡訊這些電信資料管理的指引，有沒有？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有。"],["王委員鴻薇：有嘛？當然它原來的出發點是防止詐騙，因為詐騙行為太多，你們這個指引，請問上路了沒有？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：112年就上路了。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，上路了。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：持續在修正當中，商業簡訊如果有網址連結、電話號碼、短碼部分，我們都會封阻，除非他經過驗證，符合正當使用會列入白名單。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問在指引裡面，他如果去限定他的特殊條件，比如限定在桃園地區、限定在臺北市或臺北市的哪幾個區域，或限定有過投資行為，類似這種商業化的簡訊……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：兩個層次……"],["王委員鴻薇：請問一下，如果這些幫企業去投放簡訊，這個在不在你們指引管理的範圍裡面？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不在，但是原來我們定期化契約有要求，還有個資法本身也有要求，你要提供LBS服務，必須要用戶同意才可以提供。"],["王委員鴻薇：才可以提供。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，就是經過合法或使用者同意。"],["王委員鴻薇：我請問一下，因為這個事件，你們說調查了解三家行動通訊業者都沒有提供簡訊發送門號清單及基地台區域廣播技術LBS給簡訊代發業者，就是我們三大電信業者都沒有提供。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問這些簡訊代發業者的資料哪來的？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：那就要問簡訊代發業者手上的資料，行銷公司是如何提供資料給他？"],["王委員鴻薇：他可以把他歸類，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：那就行銷公司的資訊來源這部分再去談……"],["王委員鴻薇：就不知道怎麼來源？我請中華電信，因為他們是你的客戶，請林副總。"],["林執行副總經理文智：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為你們是上游，中游是這些簡訊代發業者，你們沒有給他們，那他們資料哪來的？怎麼生出來的？"],["林執行副總經理文智：其實他們的資料，我們大概無從去了解。"],["王委員鴻薇：無從要求、無從理解？不知道他怎麼來的，他自己可以生成出來。"],["林執行副總經理文智：跟委員報告，每一家公司在經營相關的業務……"],["王委員鴻薇：都有他的神通廣大？"],["林執行副總經理文智：他應該都要依照個資保護法來做相關的處理。"],["王委員鴻薇：這當然啊，我就問你，既然他是你的客戶，你沒有給他這個資料，那他資料哪來的？從天上掉下來，還是從地底下竄上來？哪來的，不知道？"],["林執行副總經理文智：電信公司在這個案子裡面就是純粹網路通訊傳送的角色。"],["王委員鴻薇：都不知道？NCC主管機關，請問按照電信業者說沒有給他們，但是簡訊代發業者卻有這些資料，你們查過沒？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們作用法的職權範圍內，就電信業者這部分，我們有兩次行政調查過。簡單再跟委員回報，剛剛有兩個層次：第一個層次是用戶同意LBS，第二個層次是A傳給B傳給C，C是電信公司最後傳給使用者，B是簡訊代發業者，A最上游端的行銷公司，他為什麼會有資料要由這個行銷公司來說明，他要負這個法律責任，他資料怎麼取得？是合法還是違法？"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這個調查責任是不是在NCC？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不是。"],["王委員鴻薇：不在NCC，在哪裡？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：在他對應的相關主管機關。"],["王委員鴻薇：他對應主管機關是什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：他是行銷公司，目前初步應該是經濟部。"],["王委員鴻薇：經濟部？經濟部應該包山包海？因為他違法個資法的問題，最近法務部大量在查違反個資法的問題，請問法務部部長，這該不該你們查？NCC說不干他的事。"],["鄭部長銘謙：凡是有涉及到犯罪，經過告訴、告發等等，當然我們會啟動調查，不只是個資，如果還有其他的犯罪，包括像這種可能涉及妨礙秘密的問題……"],["王委員鴻薇：過去有查過嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我沒有統計的資料。"],["王委員鴻薇：怎麼會沒有查過？這麼多詐騙，很多詐騙就是透過簡訊在詐騙。"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個本來就是個資……"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛剛講簡訊的問題……"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個詐騙詐欺本來就有個資法，他有查到違反個資法，檢方會起訴，但沒有這部分的統計數據。"],["王委員鴻薇：我剛剛講這些所發的簡訊有被設定特殊條件，並不是在選舉。我直接說，常常有很多政治人物，到了中秋節、過年，他也會發送簡訊給你拜年之類的，在一般的商業行為裡面也非常多，最氾濫的確實就是詐騙，因為最害怕的就是詐騙嘛！所以照理說，因為防詐騙，你們應該早就要針對這一些啟動相關的調查，怎麼會到現在都告訴我，好像沒有人在管，而且也不知道他們的資料哪裡來的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員所關心詐欺的詐團，本來就有個資法的一些起訴案例，那個是有嘛！"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，因為我剛剛提到詐騙最多，根據你們過去的調查，這一些簡訊代發業者如果有這些特殊條件，他們的資料哪裡來的？因為NCC說他們只查電信業者，電信業者說：「我們沒有，我們沒有提供啊！」。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是屬於犯罪前端的問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你都不知道犯罪集團的問題？當他們變成詐騙行為這麼多的時候，他們已經不是個案是變通案了，請問他們資料哪裡來的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：每個犯罪的情況……"],["王委員鴻薇：你也不知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：每個犯罪類型都不一樣，他怎麼來的……"],["王委員鴻薇：一問都三不知？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不是一問都三不知，我沒辦法跟你講：到底是哪個案件？是從哪裡來的？所以是有些廣告投放商，有些是託播的人給的，有些是怎麼蒐集的，就是最原始的前端所蒐集，而他們就把這些蒐集及處理後的個人資料賣掉，有些是賣他的……"],["王委員鴻薇：部長不要著急，我要講的是不要為了cover這件事情，這事實上在簡訊……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有在cover。"],["王委員鴻薇：就是這些商業簡訊裡面已經非常慣常的這些資料，就是常常是用特殊條件，因為他們要精準行銷嘛！他們不能海量發送，海量發送實在太貴了，他們要精準行銷，所以照理講，尤其我們詐騙這麼多，你們早就應該去整理出他們的樣態，怎麼到現在什麼都不知道，我這邊只有兩個要求，第一個，如果像這樣情況，你們確定他們是有違反個資法之嫌，該調查就要調查，不要為了去cover哪些集團。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們不會去cover，警政署長在這裡，我們打詐團隊不會去cover什麼集團，這是我們需要做澄清的。"],["王委員鴻薇：第二個，請你不要辦藍不辦綠，罷團可以用，到時候被罷免的人也同樣可以用，是不是？應該是這樣的一個標準。所以我要講的就是該調查就要調查，另外在調查的時候，就請你不要再雙標了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有雙標，只要犯罪有告訴、告發的話，我們就按照證據來證明犯罪行為，我們沒有雙標啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道你們今天下午要開記者會，我都不曉得你們到底要有什麼樣的施政記者會？是要告訴大家，你們這一年司法來得豐功偉業，就是關了一個在野黨的主席，對不對？然後抄了8個在野黨的黨部，關了多少的人家的黨部主委？逃掉多少的重要經濟要犯？我不曉得你今天下午是不是要公布這些啦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不同意委員這些的講法，這樣對我們戰戰兢兢及那麼辛苦的這些辦案人員，包含法官、檢察官、警察等辦案人員是很不公平的說法。"],["王委員鴻薇：當民意對於司法的公信力及滿意度這麼低的時候，請你們拿出真正民眾關心的證物，而不是在繼續的為政治服務。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們關心所有的被害人，委員是關心幾個案件，我們是關心所有的被害人。"],["王委員鴻薇：我不是關心幾個案件，我們是關心可多了，因為現在時間的關係，像剛剛羅智強委員所提的，反正我們黨團也已經提出相關法案的修正，也希望法務部能夠採納，能夠回應十三萬多人在網路上大家的一個期待，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：請委員放心，這部分我們已經在修法了，我們會更完整的情況，能夠更加保護這些的兒少，我們絕對不能允許這些的……剛才主席也有講，包括是不是真的要到殺人或者致死的是不是可以再加重，我們都在研議。"],["王委員鴻薇：部長，如果凌虐7歲以下兒童致死，是不是應該可以處以死刑或者無期徒刑？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是我們在研議，是開放的一個選項。"],["王委員鴻薇：剛才也有講，凌虐這麼小的小孩，你就知道一定對他造成非常大的傷害。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，我的愛心及同情心絕對不會輸給你的。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們現在講法，你不是在跟我選舉啊！部長不需要有這麼多的政治語言，所以我剛才講說……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這不是政治語言，因為對這些兒童的殘害，真的是天理難容，所以我們一直在努力。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以凌虐幼童，就是7歲以下的凌虐幼童，這個其實不是叫過失，這就是故意了，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是過失，絕對是故意的，委員可能不知道起訴的法條。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，召委會召開公聽會、排公聽會，到時候也會審查相關法案，希望法務部拿出最大、最大的誠意來支持，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員請放心，這部分我們會以最周全的保護方式，我想這是人神共憤。"],["王委員鴻薇：回應民意啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們一定會回應民意，請委員放心，對兒童、少年的保護，我們一定會不遺餘力，也謝謝委員，一起來推動。"],["王委員鴻薇：請你有具體的行為，好不好？謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位請葉元之委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","張啓楷","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","羅智強","王鴻薇","葉元之","林倩綺"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、內\n政部警政署署長、中央選舉委員會、數位發展部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有\n限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「民眾反應收到罷免連署簡訊，顯非商業廣告目的利用，質疑個資\n洩漏而侵害人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145202_00002"}}},{"id":"161563","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161563","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f062d20b509644362b239b9191e0d12eea46e8f406cf3b07349f750fbe189a9eba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:03:02 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民怨也沸騰13位網友在公共政策平台提議要提高虐童者的刑責希望致死者要處無期徒刑或死刑 且不得假釋"},{"start":44.295,"end":67.973,"text":"但是法務部卻回應不予採納但我也看到新聞說部長你今天在立法院表示虐童行為是人神共憤天理難容 零容忍那更周延的法律保護法務部仍在演繹中我想請問到底是不採納還是零容忍"},{"start":70.239,"end":88.114,"text":"跟委員報告我想這個我們凱凱案的有關兒少保護我們一定要非常的落實而且要非常完備那的確這個是對有些戀人戀殺這種是人神功天理然容絕對是玲瓏人那這部分"},{"start":89.815,"end":114.889,"text":"我們在法治上我們會我們現在在檢討說哪些是可以有可以再努力的一個地方因為我們要讓這些的此類這些讓我們全民痛心的這些以及像兒童的這個被虐殺的這種我們覺得不能容許在我這裡發生所以這邊我們在法治我們會再做一個更周延的一個那給我們一些時間我們會盡快來做一個處理那目前我們是在做在研議"},{"start":115.709,"end":138.319,"text":"那另外那個假釋的那部分我們那個有關於假釋我們有提那個假釋就是殺人或殺人未遂判十年以上這種我們是不得假釋像那個孽統的那種靈略那部分事實上有時候他可能有些的個案的現在可能會有單純的靈略自家中接管有些可能會到"},{"start":139.439,"end":154.297,"text":"殺人的那一部分那這部分殺人的那一部分根據二七一條那個是死刑無期徒刑跟失戀以上有期徒刑那這部分的保密是不是可以再更周延那我們現在在嚴厲中部長"},{"start":157.453,"end":183.987,"text":"雖然你剛剛的回答我也沒有很滿意啦但是起碼我覺得你的回答就柔軟多了那我想問法務部第一時間不予採納是什麼意思啊那部分那是就一個現況的一個法律的一個現況的著重在那樣的一個說明那我想這個認可的法律都是要做滾動式的一個檢視檢討我跟部長說啦還是提醒一下"},{"start":185.103,"end":199.905,"text":"法務部跟人民的所謂的我們講社會尤其是治安跟我們的司法保護的情感是密切相關13位網友的憤怒是假的嗎 是不應該的嗎不是吧"},{"start":201.189,"end":230.008,"text":"大家是對這個所謂的虐童致死的事情是感到很痛心才會有這麼多的網友來做公共政策的提案那法務部一盆冷水潑過去不予採納沒有那個 我們就是沒有關係啊 部長你剛剛回答你就說已經是比原來我看到的這個冷冷冰冰的四個字要有溫度的多所以我才說 雖然你的回答我也不是很滿意但是至少比冷冷冰冰的說不予採納的要好"},{"start":231.53,"end":241.702,"text":"凱凱遭保姆姐妹凌虐致死那中間很多的細節真的讓人髮指連台大醫師都探說從來沒見過這麼嚴重的人為暴力"},{"start":244.81,"end":263.858,"text":"那法官雖然認為保姆姊妹倆以虐取樂 違害慎據但是因為檢方是依據凌虐兒童致死罪起訴但這個罪目前沒有死刑嘛 對不對那法官也不能判死所以一審是判保姆姊妹無期徒刑跟18年有期徒刑"},{"start":265.778,"end":279.396,"text":"事實上本席跟我們國民黨都已經有提案修法要加重虐童的刑責來修正刑法286條那麼對於虐童 凌虐致死者最高可以判處死刑"},{"start":280.337,"end":293.888,"text":"來符合罪行相當的原則那也要來修刑法77條觸犯286者遭判有期徒刑不得假釋這都是我們現在的提案那其中最重要的是把這個所謂的死刑納為選項之一判刑的選項之一來發揮對所謂的虐童"},{"start":300.293,"end":320.884,"text":"殘暴虐童致死的這個行為的遏止那麼我想請教部長既然部長剛剛已經也表達了同理心你甚至也說要對這種惡行要零容忍我想請問法務部是不是也會針對這個部分提案修法甚至來請行政院提出院版那大概什麼時候可以提出來"},{"start":321.525,"end":338.745,"text":"這部分我們現在在這個條文我們在演繹中那我想委員這部分就是說林烈是被盜死刑這個選項我倒會就有一個不同的思考這個林烈如果說一開始就是不違反他的本意這有間接故事這根本就是殺人的一個行為了嘛"},{"start":339.326,"end":364.517,"text":"那為什麼你今天不用殺人罪沒有 那這個因為個案 我就個案的證據我沒辦法去做一個證據的蒐集跟認定但是從那個太陽是從那個陵列陵列的一般陵列 陵列至中傷至死以至到死刑拘禁至陵列 陵列而至死以至到 甚至到殺人的一個不同的一個太陽的分布那我想當然這個案是會分布在整個一個"},{"start":366.378,"end":386.178,"text":"這幾個一個區塊裡面那我想我們在檢討的確是凱凱平安令我們非常的痛心非常的難過那我想絕對不能再容許有此類的案件發生所以在法治上我們是希望能夠更加的一個完備更加充分的保護這些的這個是很可憐的這些尤其是"},{"start":387.832,"end":411.067,"text":"這個未滿18歲尤其是未滿7歲的這些兒童跟少年這個是讓我們非常的痛心的所以這部分我們法務部是有在這邊就一個一個研議要更能夠落實充分保護這些的兒童那剛才委員關心的那個假釋部分那我們已經提那個殺人殺人未遂10年以上的這些不得假釋這部分重大的暴力的這份"},{"start":412.162,"end":436.987,"text":"我們已經報給行政委 行政委就開審查開了兩次了那如果說還有再更不足的 我們會再做一個嚴厲來做一個檢討我直接跟部長說 做一個簡單的一個小結事實上在開檢案發生的時候 立法院有一共有15個提案修法其中10個提案是要把死刑納入量刑的考量當中"},{"start":438.067,"end":465.066,"text":"那剛剛我其實有點遺憾啦雖然你提了其他一些所謂法律條件適用的問題但本質上你是反對將凌虐兒童致死這件事情我並沒有 這個如果說凌虐這個已經到達殺人的那一種當然啦 我跟你講 我跟你講我這個因為有些凌虐是有未必故意因為那我想那個主刑很清楚嘛凌虐單純的 凌虐致死那現在是無期徒刑但是我認為如果這個凌虐的他一開始就"},{"start":466.311,"end":489.71,"text":"就死了沒關係就那種部分這個更加的可惡這個已經列入進入到271條的一個問題了甚至那個有有那個兒少法的115條的那個加重二分之一那我們覺得這個是不是才夠我們也是覺得說是不是可以更重一個一個一個我跟你講我很快下一個結論我待會可以聽聽主席的意見了沒有問題 剛才點名主席嘛"},{"start":490.478,"end":512.648,"text":"我跟你講你剛剛跟我講說這個法條有殺人罪可以用所以死刑不一定要用在凌虐兒童制止所以你在這部份你的修法態度是保留的嗎沒有沒有那個我們跟委員你也要跟我講我覺得那個凌虐那個部份如果說真的有殺人的那些都故意那個直接殺人的話那個直接我"},{"start":513.268,"end":516.913,"text":"我只講一個事實性的結果嘛事實性的結果你今天就不是用殺人罪起訴他嘛"},{"start":530.011,"end":547.856,"text":"因為這個個案我沒辦法去討論到我不知道我請我們主席開示一下你剛剛說點名主席我不讓主席講講話我覺得也對主席不好意思我想法務部的意思我也有看過法務部他是從立法技術面去思考因為前面凌虐跟後面的死亡他不是殺人故意所以"},{"start":548.536,"end":566.355,"text":"後面那個死亡是有點類似是過失致死的那個概念所以那個法務部認為說凌虐是凌虐行為然後再造成過失致死所以他們認為不宜用那個殺人去認定或是加高到死刑但是我這邊也是請法務部能夠"},{"start":568.257,"end":580.25,"text":"思考幾個點第一個當然是說現在人民有這種需求那我們其實是可以多溝通我知道法務部的這個論述在立法紀錄上面確實也有這樣子的學說的採取第二個是328條"},{"start":582.711,"end":599.868,"text":"那個強盜致死他後面的致死也是屬於過失但是328條他是有死刑所以我國法治上面不是說只有殺人罪有死刑是我國法治本來就有加重結果犯後面的過失造成他死亡也是有死刑"},{"start":600.689,"end":622.957,"text":"所以說這兩個東西是一樣嘛就是凌虐致死跟強盜致死兩個東西其實它的結構上面是類似的那為什麼強盜致死我國法治上面要死這個我知道這個立法技術的一個問題但是我們認為這個凌虐如果又殺人的話或者主席講說加重結果犯下強盜性侵的那就是加重結果犯下221條等等那些"},{"start":625.779,"end":634.019,"text":"那個我們可以再來做一個一個但是我想這個零類零類人至死這個就是很可惡的但是我們是拜託法務部就是不要踩的就是"},{"start":634.929,"end":658.709,"text":"我不要或是拒絕溝通就是說你大家來溝通這個我們現在就在溝通而且我們是回應整個一個民意的一個意見我想這個我們非常重視這些的民眾的一個聲音我想我們有共同目標華為不是跟我們的民意是站在一起的我們是沒辦法去容忍這種改革命案這種可以在"},{"start":659.509,"end":684.461,"text":"怎麼會有這一種的人審公問呢我們沒辦法去容忍所以在這個立法上我們會再做講我們是希望能夠再更重這個我想跟委員報告我們有這樣的一個態度我還是拜託部長參考一下啦剛剛其實剛剛我們的中線召委也講出了在別的立法例當中他一樣還是可以把死刑作為量刑罰這個我們會再研究這也是本來我們研究的選項我只要聽到這句話我就比較的內容嘛我想這個委員但是我跟你講"},{"start":688.883,"end":701.146,"text":"部長我先謝謝你啦 因為剛剛說納入死刑說在研議這句話我基本上我接受啦但是拜託腳步跟時程因為我經常過去跟法務部我們有這麼多的一些互動"},{"start":702.126,"end":729.676,"text":"經常最後就是有個頭那就沒個尾那我希望這件事情能夠順應我們的台灣人民對於所謂公平正義司法正義的期待我最後還是做一點結論今天不只是凱凱案是這樣其實我最近看了很多案子我自己都看得很搖頭比方說那杜成哲詐騙集團拘禁凌虐61個人耶61個人其中有3個被活活的虐殺"},{"start":732.11,"end":753.176,"text":"結果也是免死啊那我都不知道到底我們的司法怎麼跟這61個被他凌虐的人交代怎麼跟那個3個被虐死的交代其中一個媽媽的故事我到現在都是看得很難過啊他媽媽臨終前還拖旁邊的人跟他兒子說對不起媽媽沒有辦法好好再照顧你了"},{"start":754.461,"end":776.647,"text":"我要說今天台灣我們的司法行事政策真的已經走向是在保護加害人然後去踐踏被害人這種情況這也是為什麼今天會提出來所謂的反廢死公投當然我知道法務部也好或是很多主張說那是大法官的判決我們今天不可以用公投抱歉這一點我是不能接受的"},{"start":777.347,"end":795.907,"text":"第一個公投法並沒有說憲法判決不能做公投私下它講的是重大政策可以做公投私下第二個是我不認為大法官高於人民啊所以大法官今天設了所謂的十八同仁陣來去讓判死越來越難為什麼今天杜成澤的判死這麼難這個詐欺集團判死這麼難"},{"start":797.208,"end":817.451,"text":"也是跟大法官的憲法判決有關啊更何況還有一件事馬上被認證的就是施奪獎女老師的案子五度判死最後被免死定驗就在大法官憲法判決之後第一時間最高法院出來直接引述說是大法官按照大法官最新憲法判決的意思所以才改判免死定驗的"},{"start":818.727,"end":840.662,"text":"這一點喔 是我自己一直放在心上啦那包括凱凱案的這些事情我剛剛很謝謝部長部長說願意來去做行動上的一個考量那這一點總是一個好的開始但不管怎麼樣講今天真的不能讓我們行事政策扭曲到這個地方非常背離人民的情感讓我們善良的老百姓覺得沒有受到保護謝謝部長 謝謝您"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1015,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時3分）主席，有請法務部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長好。大家知道剴剴案造成大家心非常痛，民怨也沸騰，13位網友在公共政策平臺提議要提高虐童者的刑責，希望致死者要處無期徒刑或死刑，且不得假釋。但是法務部卻回應不予採納，但我也看到新聞提到部長今天在立法院表示虐童行為是人神共憤、天理難容、零容忍，更周延的法律保護，法務部仍在研議中。我想請問到底是不採納，還是零容忍？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我想剴剴案有關的兒少保護，我們一定要非常的落實，而且要非常完備，尤其虐殺，這種是人神共憤、天理難容，絕對是零容忍，這部分在法制上，我們現在也在檢討哪些是可以再努力的地方，因為此類讓全民痛心以及像兒童被虐殺的這些案件，我們絕對不能容許再有這樣發生，所以這部分我們在法制上會再做得更周延，請給我們一些時間，會儘快來做一個處理，目前我們是在追、在研議。"],["羅委員智強：好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外假釋的部分，我們有提針對殺人或殺人未遂被判10年以上，這種是不得假釋。像虐童的凌虐部分，事實上，有時候有些個案可能會有單純的凌虐之加重結果犯；有些可能會到殺人的部分，殺人部分就是根據刑法第二百七十一條，處死刑、無期徒刑或10年以上有期徒刑，有關這部分是不是可以再更周延？我們現在也在研議中。"],["羅委員智強：好，部長，雖然你剛剛的回答，我也沒有很滿意啦！但是起碼我覺得你的回答就柔軟多了。我想問法務部第一時間回應不予採納是什麼意思？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那部分，是就法律著重在一個現況的說明，我想任何法律都要做滾動式的檢視跟檢討。"],["羅委員智強：我跟部長提醒一下，法務部跟人民所謂的社會，尤其是治安跟司法保護的情感是密切相關。13位網友的憤怒是假的嗎？是不應該的嗎？不是吧！大家是對所謂虐童致死的事情感到很痛心，才會有這麼多網友來做公共政策的提案，那法務部一盆冷水潑過去，不予採納。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，我們就是……"],["羅委員智強：沒有關係，部長，你剛剛的回答，已經比原來我看到的冷冷冰冰四個字要有溫度的多，所以我才說雖然你的回答我也不是很滿意，但是至少比冷冷冰冰的說「不予採納」的要好。剴剴遭保母姐妹凌虐致死，中間很多細節真的讓人髮指，連臺大醫師都嘆說從來沒見過這麼嚴重的人為暴力，法官雖然認為保母姐妹倆以虐取樂、危害甚鉅，但是因為檢方是依據凌虐兒童致死罪起訴，而這個罪目前沒有死刑嘛，法官也不能判死，所以一審是判保母姐妹無期徒刑跟18年有期徒刑。事實上，本席跟國民黨都已經有提案修法要加重虐童的刑責，來修正刑法第二百八十六條，對於虐童凌虐致死者，最高可以判處死刑，來符合罪刑相當的原則；也要來修刑法第七十七條，觸犯第二百八十六條者遭判有期徒刑不得假釋，這都是我們現在的提案，其中最重要是把所謂的死刑納為判刑的選項之一，來發揮對所謂殘暴虐童致死行為的遏止。","我想請教部長，既然部長剛剛也已經表達了同理心，你甚至也說對這種惡行要零容忍，我想請問法務部是不是也會針對這個部分提案修法，甚至來請行政院提出院版，大概什麼時候可以提出來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在這個條文的部分，我們在研議中，我想委員提到，就是凌虐致死者，判處死刑這個選項，我倒是就有一個不同的思考，如果凌虐一開始就是不違反他的本意，這就是間接故意，根本就是殺人的一個行為了嘛！"],["羅委員智強：那為什麼你今天不用殺人罪起訴？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，因為我就個案的證據，我沒辦法去做證據的蒐集跟認定，但是態樣是從一般凌虐致重傷、致死，以致到私行拘禁凌虐而致死，甚至到殺人，這些不同態樣的分布，我想當然個案會分布在幾個區塊裡面，我們在檢討，的確是剴剴命案令我們非常地痛心、非常地難過，我想絕對不能再容許有此類的案件發生，所以在法制上，我們是希望能夠更加完備、更加充分的保護這些很可憐的人，尤其是未滿18歲及未滿7歲的兒童跟少年，這是讓我們非常地痛心，所以這部分法務部是有在研議要更能夠落實、充分保護這些兒童。剛剛委員關心的假釋部分，我們已經提殺人未遂10年以上不得假釋之重大暴力的部分，我們已經提報給行政院，行政院也開了兩次審查，如果還有再更不足的，我們會再研議、檢討。"],["羅委員智強：我直接跟部長說，做一個簡單的小結。事實上，在剴剴案發生的時候，立法院一共有15個修法提案，其中有10個提案是要把死刑納入量刑的考量當中，剛剛我其實有點遺憾，你雖然提了其他一些所謂法律條文適用的問題，但本質上，你是反對將凌虐兒童致死這件事情……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我並沒有，如果說凌虐已經到達殺人的……有些凌虐未必故意，我想主席很清楚，單純凌虐致死現在是無期徒刑，但是我認為如果凌虐，他一開始就認為死了沒關係，這種更加可惡，這個已經進入到第二百七十一條的問題，甚至牽涉兒少法第一百十五條，加重二分之一，我們覺得這樣是不是才夠？我們也是覺得是不是可以更重？"],["羅委員智強：部長，我跟你講，我很快下一個結論，我待會也可以聽聽主席的意見沒有問題，你剛才有點名主席。我要跟你講，你剛剛跟我講法條有殺人罪可以用，所以死刑不一定要用在凌虐兒童致死……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個都可以討論。"],["羅委員智強：所以你在這部分，你的修法態度是保留的、保守的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有、沒有，委員你也要聽我講，我覺得凌虐這部分，如果真的有殺人的故意、直接殺人，我對兒童的保護，我會比現在的第兩百七十一條更重，會更重。我們對於他的選項，甚至可以考慮無期或者直接到死刑。"],["羅委員智強：我只講一個事實性的結果，事實性的結果是你今天就不是用殺人罪起訴他，不是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這個個案，我沒有辦法討論……"],["羅委員智強：你看又回到個案。我不知道，我請我們主席開示，你剛剛點名主席，我不讓主席講講話，我覺得也對主席不好意思。"],["主席：法務部的意思我大概有看過，法務部是從立法技術面去思考，因為前面凌虐跟後面的死亡，他不是殺人故意，後面的死亡有點類似是過失致死的概念，所以法務部認為凌虐是凌虐行為，然後再造成過失致死，所以他們認為不宜用殺人去認定，或是加高到死刑。但是我也請法務部能夠思考幾個點：第一個，當然現在人民有這種需求，我們其實是可以多溝通。我知道法務部的論述，在立法紀錄上面確實也有採取這樣的學說。第二個，第三百二十八條強盜致死，後面的致死也是屬於過失，但是第三百二十八條是有死刑，所以我國法制上面，不是只有殺人罪有死刑，而是我國法制本來就有加重結果犯，後面的過失造成他死亡也是有死刑，所以這兩個東西是一樣的，就是凌虐致死跟強盜致死兩個，其實結構上面是類似，為什麼強盜致死我國法制上面有死刑？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我知道。"],["主席：對、對、對，所以我就說……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個立法技術的問題，但是我們認為凌虐如果有殺人，或者主席講加重結果犯，像強盜後性侵的就加重結果犯，在第二百二十一條等等，那些我們可以再來做一個……但是我想凌虐人致死，這個就是很可惡的……"],["主席：但是我們拜託法務部，不要採的就是「我不要」或是拒絕溝通，就是讓大家來溝通嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們現在就在溝通，而且我們是回應整個……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝主席。"],["鄭部長銘謙：民意的意見，我想我們非常重視民眾的聲音，我想我們有共同目標，法務部是跟我們的民意站在一起的，我們是沒辦法去容忍這種剴剴命案，怎麼會有這種人神共憤的事情，我沒辦法去容忍，所以在立法上，我們是希望能夠再更重，我想跟委員報告我們有這樣的態度。"],["羅委員智強：我還是拜託部長參考一下，剛剛我們的宗憲召委也講，在別的立法例當中，一樣還是可以把死刑作為量刑考量之一……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們會再研議，這也是本來我們研議的選項……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝，我至少聽到這句話就比較……"],["鄭部長銘謙：研議的內容。我想委員……"],["羅委員智強：部長，我先謝謝你，剛剛說納入死刑，你說再研議，你這句話基本上我接受，但是拜託腳步跟時程……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會盡快。"],["羅委員智強：因為過去我們跟法務部這麼多的互動，經常最後是有個頭沒個尾，我希望這件事情能夠順應我們臺灣人民對於所謂公平正義、司法正義的期待。","我最後還是做一點結論，今天不只是剴剴案，其實最近看了很多案子，我自己都看得很搖頭，比方說，杜承哲詐騙集團拘禁、凌虐61個人！61個人其中有3個被活活地虐殺，結果也是免死，我都不知道，到底我們的司法怎麼跟這61個被他凌虐的人交代？怎麼跟那3個被虐死的家屬交代？其中一個媽媽的故事，我到現在看了都還很難過，他媽媽臨終前要託旁邊的人跟他兒子說：「對不起，媽媽沒有辦法好好再照顧你了。」我要說，今天我們臺灣的司法、刑事政策，真的已經走向是在保護加害人，然後去踐踏被害人的情況，這也是為什麼今天會提出所謂的反廢死公投，當然我知道法務部也好，或是很多人主要說這是大法官的判決，我們今天不可以用公投，抱歉，這點我是不能接受的，因為公投法並沒有說憲法判決不能做公投事項，它講的是重大政策可以做公投事項。第二個，我不認為大法官高於人民，所以大法官今天設了所謂的十八銅人陣讓判死越來越難，為什麼今天杜承哲的判死這麼難？這個詐欺集團判死這麼難？也是跟大法官的憲法判決有關，更何況還有一件事馬上被認證，就是師鐸獎女老師的案子，五度判死最後被免死定讞，就在大法官憲法判決之後，第一時間最高法院出來直接引述是按照大法官最新憲法判決意旨，所以才改判免死定讞，這一點是我自己一直放在心上，包括剴剴案的這件事，我剛剛很謝謝部長，部長說願意去做刑度上的考量，這一點總是一個好的開始。但不管怎麼樣講，今天真的不能讓我們刑事政策扭曲到這種地步，非常背離人民的情感，讓我們善良的老百姓覺得沒有受到保護，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝部長，謝謝羅委員。","下一位請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘、蔡易餘。","徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩。","賴士葆、賴士葆、賴士葆。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐。","下一位我們請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","張啓楷","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","羅智強","王鴻薇","葉元之","林倩綺"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、內\n政部警政署署長、中央選舉委員會、數位發展部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有\n限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「民眾反應收到罷免連署簡訊，顯非商業廣告目的利用，質疑個資\n洩漏而侵害人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145202_00002"}}},{"id":"161562","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161562","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f0377eb6b318936b1828de2cce2b28366a46e8f406cf3b0734739ca4563886b2115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:57:53 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12:07:25","影片長度":"00:09:32","會議時間":"2025-05-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等30案。\n二、處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算有關公平交易委員會主管預算凍結案等8案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-19","start_time":"2025-05-19T11:57:53+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-19T12:07:25+08:00","duration":572,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-13"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.7134687500000005,"end":8.130968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.818468750000001,"end":10.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.589718750000003,"end":16.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.724718750000001,"end":15.927218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.99034375,"end":41.408468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.049718750000004,"end":47.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.19221875,"end":54.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.18284375,"end":61.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.034093750000004,"end":61.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.14784375000001,"end":64.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.20221875,"end":77.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.20596875000001,"end":70.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.22159375000001,"end":79.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.39409375000001,"end":95.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.54534375,"end":83.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.98784375000001,"end":87.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.03846875,"end":87.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.99971875,"end":92.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.71221875,"end":113.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.07221875,"end":121.61534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.69971875,"end":128.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.34909375000001,"end":124.77096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.44534375,"end":133.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.96784375000001,"end":151.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.70346875,"end":160.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.39409375,"end":161.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.48659375,"end":162.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.87034375000002,"end":179.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.10846875000001,"end":183.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.88409375,"end":205.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.75409375,"end":214.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.69846875000002,"end":211.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.15784375,"end":227.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.75909375,"end":227.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.04596875000001,"end":238.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.52534375000002,"end":241.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.25909375,"end":241.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.65971875000002,"end":244.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.88721875000002,"end":249.78096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.21971875000003,"end":261.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.67784375,"end":263.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.24721875,"end":264.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.00221875,"end":265.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.92596875000004,"end":271.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.57534375,"end":269.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.02659375,"end":274.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.07721875000004,"end":271.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.58284375,"end":276.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.24096875000004,"end":284.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.10971875,"end":279.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.86471875,"end":281.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.27784375000005,"end":287.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.14221875000004,"end":312.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.96096875,"end":318.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.22159375,"end":334.29096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.95909375,"end":325.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.52409375,"end":327.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.54096875000005,"end":328.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.85721875,"end":330.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.41784375000003,"end":333.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.62846875,"end":339.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.65346875,"end":337.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.64034375,"end":342.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.82971875000004,"end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我們有請部長 謝謝請部長"},{"start":15.772,"end":40.91,"text":"大家好相信部長也知道我要問什麼主要是野保的問題就是說目前我們在114年的遊蕩犬的管理進進措施計畫有看到就是說農業部有提供國際文獻支持就是說希望今年我們可以依循這個國際的文獻來落實我們3比7的公母犬的一個結紮比例那我想問一下就是說"},{"start":42.091,"end":64.144,"text":"我們有這個科學數據齁但是到底如何落實嗎因為現場我們一定是看到就抓來看到就抓來嘛我們如何去做到落實這個真的可以達到3比7這件事情我想第一個就是說基本上從科學證據來講就是說你母犬絕育效果會比較好可是我實際在抓的時候我不可能說"},{"start":65.265,"end":91.021,"text":"抓三隻公的抓七隻母的不可能就是有直接的處理但是有一個重點就是說我們如果完全不處理大概五年會翻倍所以我的問題是說你要如何去因為我們一定是抓到不可能說只有抓到母的我才處理對不對你一定就是抓來就處理那你事實上你如何去達到這個比例3比7呢你會怎麼做呢"},{"start":91.661,"end":113.358,"text":"或是你市會會再做什麼事情去確認你這樣子的抓法我想過往我們缺乏一個資料就是絕育以後到底是公選母選並沒有做有效的調查所以我們後續特別是請動保師這邊再處理就是未來的絕育一定要去把基礎資料先建立起來看看我們抓的部分到底是什麼樣的一個比例"},{"start":114.239,"end":128.158,"text":"然後未來的回遲或者是在收容在認養的部分後續也可以針對這樣的一個比例去做一個相關的處理我想確定一下所以說我們現在沒有資料對不對我們現在是不知道的所以我們現在要建立基礎資料大概要花多久的時間呢"},{"start":129.68,"end":151.215,"text":"我們現在就陸續做,我們現在應該就可以要求地方政府做記錄我想東寶寺回應就是說可能在立即我們就會叫地方政府針對現在第一個收容所裡面的已經收容所裡面的公母的比例然後未來抓的部分有一個平台可以去登錄然後開始就是開始去執行這樣的一個情況"},{"start":151.715,"end":178.287,"text":"好 那我想因為這個詳細的規劃我今天很時間不夠那是不是可以請一個月以內提到我辦公室讓我知道具體的時程以及你們會如何的去做這件事情好不好那再來就是說我們目前的一個生態樂區的計畫我們其實是包括在遊蕩犬的管理經濟措施計畫當中那目前我收到的回覆是說我們沒有要針對生態樂區推動一個法制化的規劃"},{"start":179.227,"end":199.972,"text":"但是我今天還是希望來爭取他成為一個法治化因為接下來才化法的一個衝擊不知道會不會影響到這個專案那如果我們沒有把法治化的話地方政府可能就不會覺得這件事情他必須要來做這是第一個第二個就是說現在呢樂區並不是一個法治一個"},{"start":200.612,"end":226.905,"text":"法律名詞啦 現在我們在這地方執行的就是說我們抓的處罰只能是依反依據這個廢清法第27條就是它有沒有造成區域的髒亂等等可是事實上呢 它如果今天是乾淨餵食你是不是就不能抓可是我們今天講的就是生態樂區禁止餵食嘛所以我還是希望來爭取部長的支持我們是不是可以把它法治化呢"},{"start":228.179,"end":249.558,"text":"我跟他們討論過就是生態熱區它本身是根據過往的這些抓捕的這些數量調查的數量它不像說自然保衛區有一個很明確的範圍所以如果把生態熱區能夠做一些界定的時候就有機會入法啦但是他們這個部分現在他們還在討論但是我有一個要求就是"},{"start":250.419,"end":274.213,"text":"為了這些流浪犬還有一些這些跟食物特定樂區的所有的農菜計劃因為農菜計劃是我們很扎根的很多社區的計劃我都要求加一個共同項目做動物的保護過去是沒有的動物的保護這個可能要界定清楚欸對 包括這些流浪犬本身的一些"},{"start":276.155,"end":296.348,"text":"但是游蕩犬現在就是在生態樂區跟野生動物有一些相關的衝突所以這個動物保護到底指的是什麼動物游蕩犬本身就是有一些在社區裡面過往的社區完全不處理這個我現在是每一個農宅計畫都變了一個共通的項目你要在那裡面去做所謂的"},{"start":297.549,"end":317.778,"text":"我們講細的就是有蕩犬本身的這些包括你的餵養的部分的一個茶葉不正常餵養的部分你都要去處理還有家犬的這些輸種的部分我們都要去處理這樣的話透過農在社區比較基本面去處理的時候應該可以cover一些主要我們認定的生態樂區"},{"start":319.281,"end":345.416,"text":"但是我覺得這點還有一個很大的問題耶就是說我們今天生態熱區禁止餵食這件事情禁止餵食現在是沒有辦法沒有法沒有法可以去處罰嘛對不對你剛剛講的就是說我怎麼去控制這個數量可是它餵食還是沒有沒有任何的刑罰這個部分的話如果要把它法制化的困難到底是什麼就剛剛講的是界定嘛對不對還是說這個署長要來說明一下嗎還是有辦法說明"},{"start":349.343,"end":367.411,"text":"好 跟委員報告 所謂的生態熱區我們就以食物跟草消來講絕大部分應該都是私有土地那甚至可能是農地所以你如果說要去特別框線它會像一個類保護區一樣我想這在食物上是有困難的對因為地主什麼都會有很大的疑慮"},{"start":368.511,"end":382.5,"text":"對 那我們如何可能還是從剛剛部長所講的包含從社區或是包含從現有的這個遊蕩犬貓的這個管制的這個計畫還有包含加強限制餵食這方面應該會更快速一點 對"},{"start":384.518,"end":399.33,"text":"我們剛才委員特別提到就是說禁止餵食其實我們曾經想要把它納入法裡面去但是很多所謂的也是動保團體他們覺得說這些流浪犬就是有些人覺得說你不餵他他就會餓死"},{"start":401.111,"end":420.743,"text":"所以也強力的反對我們把禁止餵食很強制的拿掉所以這個部分我想還是必須持續去做溝通不過我想透過農在社區去做巡視把這些最主要的餵食點去做有效的宣導那可能比較容易達成那我們會有一些相關的KPI嗎"},{"start":422.944,"end":437.713,"text":"是就是針對於說因為我們希望可以去減少他們餵食嗎我們有一些相關的KPI去制定不然我們怎麼知道我們做的這個計畫到底有沒有成效我想這個部分我應該是只有在上個禮拜上禮拜我"},{"start":438.453,"end":458.083,"text":"也是委員會動保法執行的時候回去我討論就是龍寨社區裡面就會列KPI就是每個社區根據他的範圍然後針對那裡面的犬隻他也要協助做調查那針對這個飼主的責任還有一些不當的餵養我們都會有一些一些調查基礎數據調查以後就會有後面的KPI出來"},{"start":458.743,"end":486.891,"text":"好那我最後再強調一點就是說因為其實我們一直在強調就是說今天其實大家都知道嘛遊蕩犬的數量非常非常非常之多那我今天是來不及問有關於收容空間的問題但是我覺得還是要強調一點就是我們從源頭管理嘛一直不停的因為農業部其實也一直不停的講源頭管理是主責任但我知道在三月的時候呢農業部已經把相關過去只要你餵養我們可能就會到時候這個出事了嘛對不對這遊蕩犬如果攻擊人造成人"},{"start":487.851,"end":512.327,"text":"或是農作物的一些損傷的時候法院的判例其實是會去追究這個餵養者的責任我們已經把這些判例整理起來提供給地方政府了但是我認為今天我們如果要強調四組責任農業部應該要做出更多的宣傳讓大家知道這件事情而不是只有交給地方政府去做可能很消極的溝通"},{"start":513.488,"end":532.648,"text":"這個部分農業部可不可以做呢我想可以我們在農糧類的話經常開說明會嘛那動保師人力雖然比較少但是我會要求包括我們的試驗單位也共同來做這樣的宣導這樣的話才有它的效果我想我們是不是因為農業部的小編的社群是不是也可以成為一個溝通的平台"},{"start":533.108,"end":556.718,"text":"我們應該要用所有的平台來溝通這件事情吧總不能說這個未養者未餵他也不知道他這樣其實在法律上面會負責任但他也很無辜嘛對不對所以我覺得我們應該要做到這件事情所以大概什麼時候我們可以提供給我一個詳細的宣傳計畫我們同樣六月底好不好因為六月底我們有很多包括我們的四組那個寄養的那些契約有沒有都會出來"},{"start":557.358,"end":568.329,"text":"那宣傳的一個溝通的計畫是不是可以先提供給我呢?大概你們會在哪些地方做這些溝通?5月底之前可以嗎?好不好?那你6月底再上架嗎?應該可以,5月底可以好,謝謝好,謝謝張雅玲委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":903,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時57分）有請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。相信部長也知道我要問什麼，主要是野保的問題。目前我們在114年遊蕩犬的管理精進措施計畫有看到，農業部有提供國際文獻支持，希望今年我們可以依循這個國際的文獻來落實公母犬3比7的結紮比例。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員雅琳：我想問一下，我們有這個科學數據，但是到底要如何落實？因為現場我們一定是看到就抓來、看到就抓來，你們要如何做到3比7這件事情？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個，基本上從科學證據來講，母犬絕育效果會比較好。"],["張委員雅琳：是，同意。"],["陳部長駿季：可是實際在抓的時候，我不可能抓3隻公的、抓7隻母的，不可能，就是……"],["張委員雅琳：對啊，你一定是抓到……"],["陳部長駿季：有就直接處理。"],["張委員雅琳：對啊！"],["陳部長駿季：但是有一個重點是，我們如果完全不處理，大概5年會翻倍，就是遊蕩犬……"],["張委員雅琳：對，我知道，所以我的問題是你要如何去落實，因為你們一定是抓到就處理，不可能只有抓到母的才處理，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員雅琳：你一定都是抓來就處理嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員雅琳：事實上，你如何去達到3比7這個比例？你會怎麼做？或是你事後會再做什麼事情去確認你這樣子的抓法？"],["陳部長駿季：過往我們缺乏一個資料，就是絕育以後到底是公犬、母犬，並沒有做有效的調查，所以我們後續特別請動保司這邊再處理，就是未來的絕育一定要把基礎資料先建立起來，看看我們抓的部分到底是什麼樣的比例，然後未來的回置，或者是在收容、認養的部分，後續也可以針對這樣的比例去做相關的處理。"],["張委員雅琳：我想確定一下，所以你們現在沒有資料，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員雅琳：你們現在是不知道的，所以你們現在要建立基礎資料，大概要花多久時間？"],["陳部長駿季：動保司回應，我們會立即要求地方政府：第一個，針對收容所裡面已經收容的公、母比例，以及未來抓到的部分，有一個平臺可以去登錄，開始去執行這樣的作法。"],["張委員雅琳：好，因為這個詳細的規劃，我今天可能時間不夠，是不是可以一個月以內提到我辦公室，讓我知道具體的時程，以及你們會如何去做這件事情，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：可以，好。"],["張委員雅琳：再來，我們目前生態熱區的計畫，其實是包裹在遊蕩犬的管理精進措施計畫當中，目前我收到的回復是，你們沒有要針對生態熱區推動一個法制化的規畫，但是我今天還是希望來爭取它法制化。因為接下來財劃法的衝擊不知道會不會影響到這個專案，如果我們沒有把它法制化的話，地方政府可能就不會覺得這件事情它必須要做，這是第一個。","第二個，現在熱區並不是一個法律名詞，我們抓的只能依據廢清法第二十七條處罰，就是他有沒有造成區域的髒亂等等，事實上如果他今天是乾淨餵食，你是不是就不能抓？可是我們今天講的明明就是生態熱區禁止餵食，所以我還是希望爭取部長的支持，我們是不是可以把它法制化？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟他們討論過，就是生態熱區本身是根據過往抓捕的這些調查的數量，它不像自然保護區有一個很明確的範圍，所以如果能夠把生態熱區做一些界定，就有機會入法。這個部分現在他們還在討論，但是我有一個要求，就是為了這些遊蕩犬還有一些石虎的特定熱區，在所有的農再計畫做動物保護，因為農再計畫是我們扎根在很多社區的計畫，我都要求加一個共同項目做動物的保護，過去是沒有的。"],["張委員雅琳：動物的保護，這個可能要界定清楚，動物的保護是……"],["陳部長駿季：包括這些遊蕩犬本身的一些不正常的……"],["張委員雅琳：但是遊蕩犬現在就是在生態熱區跟野生動物有一些衝突嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以……"],["張委員雅琳：所以這個動物保護到底指的是什麼樣的動物？"],["陳部長駿季：針對遊蕩犬本身，就是有一些在社區裡面，過往的社區完全不處理這個，現在是每一個農再計畫都變成一個共通的項目，你要在裡面去做遊蕩犬處理，我們講細一點，就是遊蕩犬本身的這些，包括餵養的部分、不正常餵養的部分，還有家犬疏縱的部分，我們都要去處理，這樣的話，透過農再社區比較基本面去處理的話，應該可以cover一些主要我們認定的生態熱區。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我覺得這點還有一個很大的問題，今天我們生態熱區禁止餵食這件事情，現在是沒有法可以去處罰，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，沒有法。"],["張委員雅琳：你剛剛講的是怎麼去控制這個數量，可是餵食還是沒有任何的刑罰，這個部分如果要把它法制化，困難點到底是什麼？剛剛講的是界定，對不對？林署長要說明一下嗎？"],["林署長華慶：跟委員報告，所謂的生態熱區，我們以石虎跟草鴞來講，絕大部分應該都是在私有土地，甚至可能是農地，所以你如果要去特別去框限它，它會像類保護區一樣，我想這在實務上是有困難的。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["林署長華慶：因為地主什麼都會有很大的疑慮。"],["張委員雅琳：對，那我們如何……"],["林署長華慶：可能還是從剛剛部長所講的，包含從社區或是從現有的遊蕩犬貓管制計畫，還有加強限制餵食這方面，應該會更快速一點。"],["陳部長駿季：剛才委員特別提到禁止餵食，其實我們曾經想要把它納入到法裡面，但是很多動保團體覺得這些流浪犬，你不餵牠，牠就會餓死，所以強烈反對我們把禁止餵食列進去，這個部分還是必須持續溝通。不過我想透過農再社區去做巡視，對這些最主要的餵食點去做有效地宣導，可能比較容易達成。"],["張委員雅琳：你們會有一些相關的KPI嗎？因為我們希望可以減少餵食，你們有制定一些相關的KPI嗎？不然怎麼知道你們做了這個計畫到底有沒有成效？"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分在上個禮拜委員會動保法備詢之後，回去我們有討論，就是會在農再社區裡面列KPI，每個社區根據它的範圍，針對裡面的犬隻協助做調查，針對飼主的責任，還有一些不當的餵養，我們都會調查一些基礎數據，調查以後就會有後面的KPI出來。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我最後再強調一點，其實我們一直在強調，今天大家都知道，遊蕩犬的數量非常、非常、非常多，我今天來不及問有關收容空間的問題，但是我覺得還是要強調一點，就是我們從源頭管理，因為農業部其實也一直不停在講源頭管理、飼主責任，我知道在3月份時農業部就把過去只要餵養過……一旦出事，如遊蕩犬攻擊人，造成人或農作物的損傷時，法院的判例其實會追究餵養者的責任，對不對？我們已經把這些判例整理起來提供給地方政府，但我認為如果要強調飼主責任，那麼農業部應該要做更多的宣傳讓大家知道，而不是只交給地方政府去做可能很消極的溝通，這部分農業部可不可以做？"],["陳部長駿季：我想可以。農糧類我們經常開說明會，雖然動保司的人力比較少，但我會要求，包括試驗單位也會共同來做這樣的宣導，如此才會有效果。"],["張委員雅琳：農業部的小編社群是不是也可以成為溝通平臺？"],["陳部長駿季：會，一定會。"],["張委員雅琳：我們應該要用所有的平臺來溝通這件事情，總不能餵養者餵一餵，結果竟然不知道這樣做其實在法律上是要負責任的，這樣他也很無辜，對不對？所以我覺得應該要做到這件事情。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員雅琳：大概什麼時候可以提供給我詳細的宣傳計畫？"],["陳部長駿季：同樣6月底，好不好？因為6月底時，包括飼主、寄養契約等都會出來。"],["張委員雅琳：宣傳的溝通計畫是不是可以先提供給我？你們大概會在哪些地方做溝通？5月底之前可以嗎？好不好？你們6月底再上架，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：應該可以。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員。","下一位是馬文君委員、馬文君委員，馬文君委員不在。","葉元之委員、葉元之委員，葉元之委員不在。","呂玉玲委員、呂玉玲委員，呂玉玲委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員呂玉玲、林岱樺、邱志偉所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報；其中，林岱樺委員所提書面質詢有五點，請農業部詳實研究後予以合理答復。書面質詢及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-13","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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技術上的話一定是電信公司因為記憶台的資訊在電信公司所以警訊大發業是沒有辦法發送LBS的它只是委託三大電信公司去發送它是發送方"},{"start":101.684,"end":120.669,"text":"好也就是說是簡訊代理商原則上他是沒有這樣的一個權限還有技術可以直接去做LBS的發送他就算是有這個需求他也必須要透過三大電信業者才能夠去提供這樣的發送是嗎"},{"start":121.289,"end":145.246,"text":"對 沒錯 但是從另外一層面來看LBS這個服務電信公司推出這個服務它必須要取得用戶的同意同意之後那它電信公司可能會跟一些商家合作你到百貨公司 百貨公司知道你的地點所在它就會發給你但這前提都是使用者同意電信公司來做這個目的外的利用這是用戶要同意"},{"start":146.101,"end":151.442,"text":"我們就以中華電信的例子來講中華電信服務契約第37條裡面其實就有規定那麼中華電信對於用戶各資的資料如果說有經過用戶事先同意的話他才可以做收集目的以外的利用"},{"start":174.348,"end":202.85,"text":"那么这也是今天在讨论但是在中华电信的服务契约里面看起来其实并没有写得那么清楚到底所谓的可以同意做收集目的以外的利用这个利用的范围到哪里这也是今天很多的委员其实都有在问的他到底是只能够做商业的行销还是说包含连政治行销也可以在内又或者是日后有很多的所谓的活动行销是不是都可以做"},{"start":203.991,"end":228.359,"text":"都可以被認定為它是屬於收集目的以外的利用那請問ACC對這個看法是什麼商業使用LBS其實都是屬於一種目的以外的使用我們講商業警訊這商業其實是一個通稱它的英文是對應A to PA是Advertisement就是廣告廣告的性質包括商業用途包括"},{"start":229.279,"end":252.913,"text":"剛剛前面有早上有提到說如果選罷法可以宣傳那也算是一種另類的廣告那這邊的範圍應該是還在範圍內的至於說詳細的個別公司他們在真正操作上這個目的外的使用的情境我們是可以請中華來補充一下主委我這邊要提醒如果說你認為說是發這個廣告它是屬於一個選舉廣告的話其實這個可能會涉及到選罷法的問題"},{"start":257.316,"end":272.904,"text":"什麼時候可以發什麼時候不能發在我們選罷法裡面還有清楚的規定我認為說在這裡所謂的廣告的使用不能夠做這麼廣義的解釋而且如果說是以之前我們所看到很多的案例基本上都是奠定在所謂的商業行銷的廣告"},{"start":274.225,"end":288.887,"text":"就純商業的廣告而不是涵蓋到其他的各類的這種行銷活動的廣告如果是這樣的話變成說你們可能從相關的辦法或者是說接下來要要求這個三大電信業者都要修改"},{"start":290.388,"end":313.353,"text":"電信服務的契約不能夠這樣子這麼空泛回到母法電信管理法第四條電信的效果由發送人來負起責任如果今天發送方是那個警告他業者的契客他發送的政治上的宣導的廣告到法律上責任他要負責這跟電信公司無關電信公司這方面是免責的"},{"start":314.793,"end":332.678,"text":"那所以就是說以這次的案例來講你們認為說這是完全就是這個簡訊代理商他們自己去輸入那個用戶的門號對 是簡訊代理商的契客簡訊代理商的客戶提供給簡訊代理商來發簡訊代理商再經過這個API介面透過三大電信來發送"},{"start":334.045,"end":343.014,"text":"那電信公司三大電信公司再透過三大電信來發送對 因為行動網路是三大電信公司才有 它才有辦法發送但是發送源頭當然是簡訊電話業者的企客來提供的對 可是如果說這樣的話其實對於三大電信業者它仍然是發送到最後的這個案件這個簡訊出去還是三大電信業者不是嗎"},{"start":357.639,"end":366.283,"text":"資訊來源是最源頭端然後一般民眾其實他也可以選擇不要接受這個商業簡訊的權利隨時可以跟商貸電子公司申請退出或加入都可以我聽不太懂這個主委在那邊說的意思基本上現在就是由簡訊代理商那裡他們提供了一份名單交給中華電信去發送"},{"start":382.544,"end":388.101,"text":"對 是這樣子沒錯所以那你又說發送人又不是中華電信那明明中華電信就是實際上要發送的"},{"start":389.975,"end":417.64,"text":"所有東西一定是經過定性的網路發送出去但是我們講說發信人發送人那是最源頭端今天我以個人對個人的話我今天發送給某甲那我為什麼知道某甲的其中的號碼那是我要負責任我是偷拿到他的還是怎麼樣是我要負責任那今天這個案子上源頭端是簡訊大發業者的客戶就是某行銷公司他所掌握有的他怎麼掌握有他要負這個相關的法律責任"},{"start":418.901,"end":443.716,"text":"請問一下現在簡訊代理商的主管機關是哪一個單位簡訊代理商目前是這個資訊服務業資訊服務業是有相關的主管機關哪一個主管機關主管機關是速發部嗎還是經濟部以前是經濟部現在應該是應該我當然分工我還在確認早期是工業局現在應該可能是數位部"},{"start":446.997,"end":461.953,"text":"曾主委 這個跟你們的業務都有關 對不對這些個別的行業 這跟電信業者有關的那些行業和主管機關你們也要了解清楚我們其實我們上禮拜五一定把我們電話結果 喊轉給他們那現在看起來 所以你們喊轉給哪個單位"},{"start":465.133,"end":484.401,"text":"經濟發育業的部分還轉給數位部然後行銷工作的部分還轉給經濟部所以這兩個單位他們基本上應該要來落實要去調查嘛到底這個個資是從哪裡掌握的他可以調查一般民眾也可以依據個資法來自行來維護權益來告發那請問法務部請問正部長現在你們有收到民眾的告發了嗎"},{"start":492.281,"end":506.087,"text":"地檢署有收到了嗎?你們有依職權調查了嗎?那個目前是還沒有收到那如果說有有那個告訴高發那我們就依法來處理所以沒有告訴高發的話你們完全都不動"},{"start":507.103,"end":522.849,"text":"因為這個是不是因為這個蠻這個很多的專業的問題很明顯的要我們要知有因為告訴告發或知有明確的犯罪嫌疑那我們這樣就會二二八條現在所以這還不算是有明確的犯罪嫌疑嗎就是很明顯就是有個資外洩的問題"},{"start":523.789,"end":546.599,"text":"因為如果說是從剛陳主委那邊也講了嘛就是簡訊代理上他基本上他擁有的這個用戶的資料按照中華電信的說法你們都要去識別化不能夠有任何辨認可是現在所有的簡訊都能夠精準打擊在一定的區域範圍裡面所以很明顯的就是一定是簡訊代理商要不是企業用戶他們掌握了"},{"start":548.519,"end":564.224,"text":"這個個資而且很清楚的個資才有辦法就是委託交由簡訊代理商然後再交由中華電信來發送這看起來我覺得這個犯罪的嫌疑這犯罪事實比去抓那偽造連署還清楚"},{"start":566.457,"end":578.074,"text":"對 我希望防務部能夠扛起責任好不好該去調查就去調查 檢調單位在這件事情上面要有態度 要有動作嘛"},{"start":580.366,"end":594.215,"text":"好那另外好謝謝部長我想你們應該是還沒動作了不過我這邊提醒你們希望你們能夠趕快回去一直權就可以來啟動調查好謝謝請部長先回座那另外我想要請教中華電信就是你們一般來說你們跟簡訊代理商的簽約時間是多久"},{"start":598.648,"end":626.562,"text":"我們跟簡訊代理商的簽約大概是一到兩年然後我們隨時也會去看看說那個簡訊代理商他有沒有依照合約裡面去履行相關的這個義務所以你們提供了這些用戶的資料給簡訊代理商那時間到了之後你們會把這些資料全部收回全部銷毀嗎我們不會提供資料給簡訊代理商你們不會提供資料我們不會提供資料給簡訊代理商"},{"start":628.124,"end":651.915,"text":"我聽不太懂可是你們LBS的服務不是就是提供這所謂去識別化的個資然後把這些訊息然後提供給企業用戶我們先調查結果三大沒有針對這個案子提供LBS服務沒有那是媒體報導好那如果說三大電信你們現在又拿了用戶去識別化的個資之後這些資料"},{"start":653.089,"end":659.83,"text":"你們是怎麼樣提供給相關的廠商企業用戶因為很多的行銷公司他們需要這些資料"},{"start":661.126,"end":686.28,"text":"基本上先跟委員報告去識別化的資料它就是那個資訊它不會再涉及各自沒有我先來問很簡單的問題就是你們跟這些廠商簽契約一次是簽幾年然後簽完了這個期間契約期間屆滿之後你們會把所有的資料再收回嗎還是不會還是這些廠商他們就擁有這些所有的資料還是要跟委員報告我們沒有交付資料的行為"},{"start":691.043,"end":699.813,"text":"那你們在去識別化的資料不是就是要交給行銷公司去做商業行銷嗎商業廣告你不提供資料給他們 他們怎麼做商業行銷"},{"start":700.799,"end":720.574,"text":"去識別化之後的資料是屬於那個資訊資料的這個處理應用那這個部分的處理應用我們也會跟那個委託方就這個部分去做相關的對應處理但是在中華電信公司本身不會有任何交付個資資料的行為"},{"start":721.636,"end":747.783,"text":"我現在只是講交付去識別化的資料我沒有講說你交付個資你們明明不是說你剛剛這個副總也講了那個資料在我們的那個資料資料在我們的那個系統裡面所以這個部分的那個處理它是屬於輪廓性資料的那個分析所以如果委員提到是交付資料的話那都是屬於輪廓性的資料"},{"start":748.223,"end":754.987,"text":"好現在就講交付輪廓性的資料你們一次簽約是幾年嗎你們跟著委託方"},{"start":756.841,"end":778.087,"text":"這個可能跟個別廠商不同可能一到兩年或兩到三年不管那你們這個契約屆滿之後你們在交出去的這個輪廓性資料你們會收回嗎這個輪廓性的資料一般是委託方他委託之後所得到的結果我們不會再去說因為他本身也就已經擁有了這個輪廓性的資料了"},{"start":779.467,"end":800.052,"text":"所以我覺得這是一個問題因為現在科技技術日新月異你們現在交出去的輪廓性的資料他們說不定很有可能會依據你們的資料重新再還原或者是說是再去做一些回復到可能有相當程度識別性的這樣子的一個作用一個服務所以"},{"start":804.727,"end":829.059,"text":"我認為其實中華電信你們未來還有就是NCC這裡可能要注意就是你們未來在督導這些電信業者在提供這些去識別化的資料是不是期間到了之後這些識別性的資料要有方法可以把它全部銷毀否則現在講難聽點這些簡訊代理商他可能拿到的資料他手上有了一大堆的資料然後期間借滿了之後他也不需要在那裡上有什麼"},{"start":830.6,"end":850.335,"text":"警察以上手上不會有三大電信公司提供的個人資料然後去識別化的基本上也不會提供他因為111年憲判13號的解釋上他是要從嚴來認定的這個份我們都已經要求三大電信要謹慎為之所以這一塊他們的業務操作都是非常謹慎"},{"start":852.686,"end":876.068,"text":"對應今天這些討論的個案 長大都沒有提供 都沒有把資料提供給發送端不管是行銷公司什麼都沒有那LPA是不會取得個資的所以我想我們現在這邊講的這個問題的層次好像不在就是講的問題不在同一個層次上面我現在要談的就是說 你們現在講的是個資去識別化的資料"},{"start":877.069,"end":905.462,"text":"那我這邊我也是談的我這裡不是談說你們交付個資我是說你們交付的可能是去識別化的資料剛剛按照副總的說法所謂輪廓性的資料你既然是輪廓性的資料的話它還是對於廠商來講它還是有利可圖它才會要去做相關的行銷服務嘛那這部分的資料你們後續怎麼處理我希望你們能夠這個有能夠再提供更精簡的提出分一份報告"},{"start":906.442,"end":909.347,"text":"到最後不好意思 我很快再問一個問題 剩讓我兩分鐘那接下來請中選會"},{"start":918.309,"end":939.243,"text":"謝謝主委跟副總你們可以先回座我想請教的就是有關於最近有罷團的團體提出領銜人的更換作業因為現在中選會回答說選罷法沒有授權可定辦法所以就不去制定相關的地補領銜人的作業辦法"},{"start":942.825,"end":955.076,"text":"那本席當然啦你們如果從依法的角度來講你們是沒有授權明確所以你們不定可是事實上你中選會過去也定了很多的注意規定啊也定了很多的規則那麼事實上你們可以針對這個地埔領銜人發一個發布一個SOP的規則為什麼你們不做"},{"start":962.957,"end":975.024,"text":"跟委員報告 首先是說明一下我們在選罷確實沒有這樣的授權但是我們在委員會議已經有針對後續就是這個罷團這邊應該要怎麼去處理 已經有發函跟罷團這邊來做說明"},{"start":981.668,"end":1003.803,"text":"我想這個部分其實還是要很清楚因為從你們回函裡面其實並不清楚我接下來要問的就是說是如果說候補領銜人他遞補為領銜人在這個程序基本上中選會預估要審查要幾天也就是說是現在收集了同意更換領銜人的這樣的同意書然後送到中選會中選會你要審查多久"},{"start":1005.053,"end":1028.826,"text":"因為這個一樣是沒有規範 那我們會盡快來做審查不是 因為你們這要訂得很清楚現在你們的公文的說法也就是以這個罷免吳世堯的這個案子為例的話6月7號之前所有的二階的連署書要送達那麼同時那個更換領銜人的這個程序也要完成這可能會有互相衝突的情況"},{"start":1032.452,"end":1057.419,"text":"是 他就是在送連署書的時候 他必須要完成這個更換因為他原本他現在認定 好像如果說他6月6號之前他送這個更換同意書那你們有辦法24小時之內就做好嗎這個部分我們會盡快來做審查所謂盡快24小時之內要完成那這樣的話人家才有辦法在6月7號當天去送二接的連署書 是嗎是 我們會盡快來審查"},{"start":1060.938,"end":1082.136,"text":"處長麻煩您可以確定一下您所謂進化是24小時之內嘛這樣才能確保大家在6月7號之前把那二接的連署書然後可以送達因為你們要查核查核要完成嘛到底能不能通過因為現在這個問題就在於說如果說是更換領銜人的這件事情沒有確定他會不會影響到後續的罷免案"},{"start":1083.917,"end":1109.989,"text":"影響到這個後續的連署書連署人的名冊二階的連署人名冊還是說你們分開處理反正更換同意書我先送然後呢二階的連署書我達標了我也先送那麼如果說這個領銜人萬一審查不過的話那麼那當然可能後面就不論但是如果領銜人的這個部分通過的話那就是全部都照算"},{"start":1111.674,"end":1129.157,"text":"他必須要在送聯署書的時候已經完成程序對這就是問題點6月7號是他的dayline那你並沒有講說這罷免更換同意人的這個領銜書是什麼時候要送達所以我就說講一個極端的例子他6月6號送呢"},{"start":1132.029,"end":1159.088,"text":"這部分我們就是盡快來審查按照你們的公文的意思他6月6號送都可以喔所以你們要盡速24小時之內就要這個就要這個審查完成對就這個部分我希望中選會是不是今天這個可以就是給我一個清楚的答覆好不好因為這涉及到人民行使罷免權很重要的一個事項就是如果說是你們沒有講清楚"},{"start":1160.049,"end":1167.306,"text":"接下來一定要罷免 團體不知道怎麼做可以嗎 可以今天下班之前給我一個回覆嗎"},{"start":1169.212,"end":1189.449,"text":"可以再一點時間嗎就是可不可以明天再好那就明天好不好明天要給我一個清楚的回覆好不好這是真的是影響到我們這麼多罷免人還有連署人的權益這必須行政行為內容要明確好不好那麼希望這個處長你明天下班之前明天中午吧明天中午12點之前給我一個回覆好謝謝那就麻煩要"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":918,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時42分）主席好。首先先請NCC陳代理主委。"],["主席：代理主委。"],["翁委員曉玲：還有中華電信林副總。"],["主席：中華電信。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：陳主委你好。我想這次因為滿多民眾有收到罷團的簡訊，引發個資外洩的爭議，我當然知道其實NCC督導的是電信業者，所以到底電信業者有沒有實際上去從事LBS服務的簡訊發送，經過NCC的調查，看起來現在並不是由中華電信或三大電信業者所提供的LBS的簡訊發送。我想請教一個問題，除了三大電信業者可以提供LBS的簡訊發送之外，一般來說，簡訊代理商他們可不可以做LBS的簡訊發送？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：一般是沒有，技術上一定是電信公司發送，因為基地台的資訊在電信公司，所以簡訊代發業者是沒有辦法發送LBS，他只是委託三大電信公司去發送，他是發送方。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，也就是說，簡訊代理商原則上是沒有這樣的權限、技術可以直接去做LBS的發送，就算是有這個需求，他也必須透過三大電信業者才能夠去提供這樣的發送，是嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，沒錯，但是從另外的層面來看，電信公司推出這個LBS服務，他必須取得用戶的同意，同意之後，電信公司可能會跟一些商家合作，你到百貨公司，百貨公司知道你的地點所在，他就發給你，但前提都是使用者同意電信公司來做目的外的利用，用戶要同意。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。其實我有準備，麻煩先跳到下一個PPT。我們就以中華電信的例子來講，中華電信服務契約第三十七條裡面就有規定，中華電信對於用戶的個人資料，如果有經過用戶事先同意的話，它才可以做蒐集目的以外的利用。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：這也是今天在討論的，但是中華電信的服務契約看起來其實並沒有寫得那麼清楚，到底所謂的可以同意做蒐集目的以外的利用，這個利用的範圍到哪裡？這也是今天很多委員都有在問的，它到底是只能做商業的行銷？還是包含連政治行銷也可以在內？又或是日後有很多所謂的活動行銷，是不是都可以被認定為屬於蒐集目的以外的利用？請問NCC對這個看法是什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員回報，商業使用（LBS）其實都是屬於一種目的外的使用，我們講商業簡訊，商業其實是一個通稱，它的英文是對應A2P，A是advertisement，就是廣告，廣告係指包括商業用途，也包括早上有提到的選罷法宣傳也算是一種另類的廣告，這邊應該是還在範圍內。至於詳細的個別公司在真正操作上，目的外的使用情境，我們是不是可以請中華電信來補充一下？"],["翁委員曉玲：主委，我這邊要提醒，如果你認為發這個廣告是屬於一個選舉廣告的話，這可能會涉及選罷法的問題，什麼時候可以發、什麼時候不能發在我們的選罷法裡面有清楚的規定。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：我認為所謂廣告的使用不能做這麼廣義的解釋，而且如果以之前我們所看到的很多案例，基本上都是奠定在商業行銷的廣告，就是純商業的廣告，而不是涵蓋到其他各類行銷活動的廣告。如果是這樣的話，變成你們可能從相關的辦法，或是接下來要要求三大電信業者都要修改電信服務契約，不能夠這麼空泛。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，跟委員報告，回到母法電信管理法第四條，電信的效果由發送人負起責任，如果今天發送方是簡訊代發業者的企客，它發送的政治宣導廣告，法律上的責任是他要負責，這跟電信公司無關，電信公司在這方面是免責的。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以以這個案例來講，你們認為這完全是簡訊代理商自己輸入用戶的門號？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，簡訊代理商的客戶提供給簡訊代理商來發，簡訊代理商再經過這個API介面透過三大電信發送，三大電信公司這一段是沒問題的。"],["翁委員曉玲：再透過三大電信來發送？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，因為行動網路是三大電信公司才有，它才有辦法發送，但是發送源頭端是簡訊代發業者的企客提供的。"],["翁委員曉玲：可是如果這樣的話，對於三大電信業者而言，它仍然是發送端，最後讓簡訊出去的還是三大電信業者，不是嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：資訊來源是最源頭端，一般民眾其實是可以選擇不要接受商業簡訊的權利，隨時都可以可以向三大電信公司申請退出或加入。"],["翁委員曉玲：我聽不太懂主委說的意思。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就是說一般民眾……"],["翁委員曉玲：基本上，現在就是由簡訊代理商那裡提供了一份名單，交給中華電信去發送，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，是這樣沒錯。"],["翁委員曉玲：是不是這樣子嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：但你又說發送人不是中華電信，明明中華電信就是實際發送的啊！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：所有東西一定是經過電信網路發送出去，但是我們說發送人是最源頭端，今天我以個人對個人，發送給某甲，但我為什麼知道某甲的行動電話號碼，那是我要負責任，是我偷拿到的還是怎麼樣，是我要負責任！今天這個案子的源頭端是簡訊代發業者的客戶，就是某行銷公司所掌握的，而他怎麼掌握，他要負相關的法律責任，他的個資是怎麼取得的？"],["翁委員曉玲：好，請問現在簡訊代理商的主管機關是哪一個單位？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：簡訊代理商目前是資訊服務業，資訊服務業有相關的主管機關。"],["翁委員曉玲：哪一個主管機關？主管機關是數發部嗎？還是經濟部？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：以前是經濟部，現在應該是……分工方面我還要再確認，早期是工業局，現在可能是數位部。"],["翁委員曉玲：陳主委，這個跟你們業務都有關。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有，我……"],["翁委員曉玲：這些跟電信業者有關的個別行業的主管機關，你們也要了解清楚嘛！不能東推西推。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：上禮拜五已經把我們的調查結果函轉給他們了。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們函轉給哪個單位？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：簡訊代發業者的部分函轉給數位部，然後行銷工作的部分函轉給經濟部。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以這兩個單位基本上應該要落實、調查嘛！到底個資是從哪裡掌握的？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，它可以調查，一般民眾也可以依據個資法自行維護權益來告發。"],["翁委員曉玲：來告發？請問法務部鄭部長，現在你們有收到民眾的告發了嗎？地檢署有收到了嗎？你們有依職權調查了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前是還沒有收到，如果有告訴、告發，我們就依法來處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以沒有告訴、告發的話，你們完全都不動？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這個有很多專業的問題，很明顯的要我們……因為告訴、告發，或知有明確的犯罪嫌疑，檢察官就會依據第二百二十八條……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這還不算是有明確的犯罪嫌疑嗎？這就很明顯是有個資外洩的問題，剛剛陳主委這邊講了嘛，基本上簡訊代理商擁有的用戶資料，按照中華電信的說法，你們都要去識別化，不能有任何辨認的可能，可是現在所有的簡訊都能夠精準打擊在一定的區域範圍裡面，所以很明顯的就一定是簡訊代理商，要不然就是企業用戶，他們掌握了個資，而且是很清楚的個資，才有辦法交由簡訊代理商，然後再交由中華電信來發送，我覺得這個看起來犯罪嫌疑、犯罪事實，比去抓偽造連署還要清楚！我希望法務部能夠扛起責任，好不好？該調查就去調查，檢調單位在這件事情上面要有態度、要有動作嘛！謝謝部長，我想你們應該是還沒動作，我提醒你們，希望你們回去能趕快依職權啟動調查，謝謝，請部長先回座。","另外我想要請教中華電信，一般來說，你們跟簡訊代理商簽約時間是多久？"],["林執行副總經理文智：我們跟簡訊代理商簽約大概是一到兩年，我們也會隨時看簡訊代理商有沒有依照合約履行相關義務。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們提供了這些用戶的資料給簡訊代理商，時間到了之後，你們會把這些資料全部收回、全部銷毀嗎？"],["林執行副總經理文智：跟委員報告，我們不會提供資料給簡訊代理商。"],["翁委員曉玲：你們不會提供資料？"],["林執行副總經理文智：我們不會提供資料給簡訊代理商。"],["翁委員曉玲：我聽不太懂，可是你們的LBS服務不就是提供所謂去識別化的個資，然後把這些訊息提供給企業用戶？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，我們行政調查的結果，三大電信沒有針對這類案子提供LBS服務，沒有！那是媒體報導。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，如果三大電信現在又拿了用戶去識別化的個資之後，這些資料你們是怎樣提供給相關廠商、企業用戶？因為有很多行銷公司需要這些資料啊！"],["林執行副總經理文智：基本上先跟委員報告，去識別化的資料就是一個資訊，它不會再涉及個資。"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在問很簡單的問題，就是你們跟這些廠商簽契約，一次是簽幾年？契約期間屆滿之後，你們會把所有資料再收回嗎？還是不會收回？還是這些廠商就擁有這些所有資料？"],["林執行副總經理文智：還是要跟委員報告，我們沒有交付資料的行為。"],["翁委員曉玲：這些去識別化的資料不就是要交給行銷公司去做商業行銷、商業廣告嗎？你不提供資料給他們，他們怎麼做商業行銷？"],["林執行副總經理文智：去識別化之後的資料是屬於資訊資料的處理應用，這個部分的處理應用，我們也會跟委託方就這個部分做相關的對應處理，但是在中華電信公司本身，不會有任何交付個資資料的行為。"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在只是講交付去識別化的資料，我沒有說你交付個資，剛剛副總也講了，對不對？"],["林執行副總經理文智：去識別化的資料在我們的系統裡面，這個部分的處理是屬於輪廓性資料的分析，所以如果委員提到是交付資料的話，那都是屬於輪廓性的資料。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，現在就講交付輪廓性的資料，你們跟委託方一次簽約是幾年？"],["林執行副總經理文智：這個可能跟個別廠商有不同情況。"],["翁委員曉玲：可能一到兩年或兩到三年，不管！"],["林執行副總經理文智：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：契約屆滿之後，你們交出去的輪廓性資料，你們會收回嗎？"],["林執行副總經理文智：這個輪廓性的資料一般是委託方委託之後所得到的結果，我們不會再去收回，因為他本身就已經擁有了這個輪廓性的資料。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我覺得這也是一個問題，因為現在科技技術日新月異，你們現在交出去的輪廓性資料，他們說不定很有可能會依據你們的資料重新再還原，或是再去做一些回復到可能有相當程度識別性這樣的作用、服務。所以我認為中華電信，還有NCC可能也要注意，就是你們未來在督導這些電信業者，在提供這些去識別化的資料，是不是期間到了之後，這些識別性的資料要有方法可以把它全部銷毀，否則現在講難聽一點，這些簡訊代理商可能拿到了資料，他手上有了一大堆的資料，然後期間屆滿了之後，他也不需要再跟代理商有什麼……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員回報，其實代理商手上不會有中三大電信公司提供的個人資料，去識別化的部分，基本上也不會提供他，因為111年憲判字第13號的解釋上，它是要從嚴來認定的，這個部分我們都已經要求三大電信要謹慎為之，所以這一塊他們的業務操作都是非常謹慎。對應今天這些討論的個案，三大電信都沒有把資料提供給發送端，不管是行銷公司或什麼都沒有提供，至於LBS是不會涉及到個資的。"],["翁委員曉玲：主委，我們現在這邊講的問題好像不在同一個層次上面。你們現在講的是個資去識別化的資料，我這裡不是談你們交付個資，我是說你們交付的可能是去識別化的資料，剛剛按照副總的說法，所謂輪廓性的資料，既然是輪廓性的資料的話，對於廠商來講，他還是有利可圖，他才會去做相關的行銷服務，這部分資料，你們後續怎麼處理？我希望你們能夠再提供更精簡的一份報告讓我知道。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，我們給書面報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：最後不好意思，我很快再問一個問題，再讓我講2分鐘。","接下來請中選會。"],["蔡處長金誥：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝主委跟副總，可以先回座。我想請教有關最近有罷團團體提出領銜人的更換作業，因為現在中選會回答選罷法沒有授權可定辦法，所以就不去制定相關遞補領銜人的作業辦法，當然，你們如果從依法的角度來講，你們是沒有授權明確，所以你們不定辦法。可是事實上中選會過去也定了很多的注意規定，也定了很多的規則，事實上你們可以針對遞補領銜人發布一個SOP的規則，為什麼你們不做？"],["陳副處長宗蔚：跟委員報告，首先說明一下，我們在選罷法確實沒有這樣的授權，但是我們在委員會議已經有針對後續罷團這邊應該要怎麼去處理，已經有發函跟罷團這邊做說明。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我想這個部分其實還是要很清楚，因為你們回函裡面其實並不清楚，接下來我要問的就是，如果候補領銜人遞補為領銜人的這個程序，基本上中選會預估審查要幾天？也就是現在收集了同意更換領銜人的同意書，送到中選會，中選會要審查多久？"],["陳副處長宗蔚：因為這個也一樣是沒有規範，我們會儘快來做審查。"],["翁委員曉玲：不是，你們這個要定得很清楚。否則按照現在你們公文的說法，也就是如果以罷免吳思瑤的這個案子為例，6月7號之前，所有的二階連署書要送達，那麼同時更換領銜人的這個程序也要完成，這可能會有互相衝突的情況。"],["陳副處長宗蔚：他就是在送連署書的時候，必須要完成更換，因為現在認定的還是……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，如果6月6日之前他送更換同意書，你們有辦法24小時之內就做好嗎？"],["陳副處長宗蔚：這個部分我們會儘快來做審查。"],["翁委員曉玲：所謂儘快，24小時之內要完成，這樣的話，人家才有辦法在6月7號當天去送二階的連署書，是嗎？"],["陳副處長宗蔚：是，我們會儘快來審查。"],["翁委員曉玲：處長，你講清楚，麻煩您可以確定一下，你所謂儘快是24小時之內嘛，這樣的話才能夠確保大家在6月7號之前，把二階的連署書可以送達，因為你們要查核，查核要完成，到底能不能通過？因為現在這個問題，就在於如果是更換領銜人的這件事情沒有確定，會不會影響到後續的罷免案、影響到後續二階連署人的名冊？還是你們分開處理？反正我先送更換同意書，然後二階的連署書，我達標了，我也先送。如果領銜人萬一審查不過的話，當然可能後面就不論；但是如果領銜人的部分通過的話，就是全部都照算。"],["陳副處長宗蔚：他必須在送連署書的時候，已經完成程序。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，這就是問題點，6月7號是他的deadline，你並沒有講這罷免更換領銜人的同意書是什麼時候要送達，所以我就講一個極端的例子，他6月6號送呢？"],["陳副處長宗蔚：這部分我們就是儘快來審查。"],["翁委員曉玲：按照你們公文的意思，他6月6號送都可以喔！所以你們要儘速24小時之內就要審查完成。這個部分，我希望中選會是不是今天可以給我一個清楚的答復，好不好？因為這涉及到人民行使罷免權很重要的一個事項，如果是你們沒有講清楚，接下來人家罷免團體不知道怎麼做，可以今天下班之前給我一個回復嗎？"],["陳副處長宗蔚：可以再一點時間嗎？可不可以明天再來？"],["翁委員曉玲：好，那就明天，明天要給我一個清楚的回復，好不好？這真的是影響到這麼多罷免人，還有連署人的權益，這行政行為必須內容要明確，好不好？那麼希望處長，明天中午12點之前給我一個回復，好，謝謝。"],["主席：那就麻煩要照時間回復。中選會在法制上面設計是獨立機關，不是執政黨的啦啦隊，所以要麻煩秉公處理，因為我知道翁委員在問什麼問題。另外剛剛翁委員有麻煩中華電信要補資料，就麻煩中華電信幾天內補給你？"],["翁委員曉玲：星期五。"],["主席：好，中華電信就麻煩星期五的時候補一下資料。另外因為剛剛翁委員有提到什麼叫做輪廓性資料，請說明一下這個部分，我想翁委員應該是在問這個問題，輪廓性資料的定義是什麼？我剛剛在那邊聽很久也聽不懂，所以可能要麻煩中華電信能夠跟翁委員說明這一塊，謝謝。","下一位我們請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","張啓楷","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","羅智強","王鴻薇","葉元之","林倩綺"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、內\n政部警政署署長、中央選舉委員會、數位發展部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有\n限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「民眾反應收到罷免連署簡訊，顯非商業廣告目的利用，質疑個資\n洩漏而侵害人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145202_00002"}}},{"id":"161560","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161560","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f0a5acef191148e72d28de2cce2b28366a0be1aa9793fcacdd22026100640eea3a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:53:42 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我想他們每一次的這些檢核表應該有一個上傳的機制然後我們去檢查他們不同限制可能強度會不一樣然後我們針對執行比較差的我們會列入加強的一個查核然後也會實際的積查對 實際的查核是一定要的好 那我們期待6月"},{"start":358.482,"end":365.588,"text":"那如果那個訊息能夠早一點出來再麻煩給我們辦公室我們先把這個checklist那些東西再請委員來指正好 謝謝 謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":838,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時47分）不浪費大家的時間。謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。每次來這邊就應該知道我要問跟動保相關的一些問題了。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：部長知道基隆市動物收容所李姓管理員涉及虐待動物的事件嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這我有聽說過。"],["郭委員昱晴：您認為是個案還是制度上出了問題？"],["陳部長駿季：以這個案子看起來，我覺得是個案，但還要看他們的後續調查。不過我想整體的收容所管理是一個系統性的問題，這個必須要去做澈底的處理。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是據我所知，因為時間的關係，我就不一一點名說明，其實近三年至少有6起跟公立收容所人員涉及不當對待有關係，但是都沒有一件被移送，只有內部做調職了事。我想要請問，就公立的收容所當中，有多少人是經過動物行為、福利的訓練？主管機關是不是有針對調查的標準做為懲處的流程？這個部分是交由地方政府各自為政，還是民眾應該要如何能夠知道公立收容所當中的現況？我們可以透過什麼樣的長期觀察或是志工長期的進駐成為第三方的監督？這三個問題請部長回答我一下。"],["陳部長駿季：細節部分我先請動保司司長回答，之後我再回答。"],["江司長文全：報告委員，有關於現在各地的收容所，我們一向的立場就是資訊要能夠透明，所以所有縣市政府每個月的收容動態資料都會放到我們的動物保護網上。第二個是關於收容人員的部分，我們非常務實地講，目前都是各地方自行遴聘跟訓練，這一部分我們也會要求相關的一些專業。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，以基隆市公立收容所為例，這位李姓管理員，除了他自己本身不愛動物之外，他也擔心這些被收容的動物因為現在零安樂，他覺得要處理他們的大小便是麻煩的，甚至長期不給這些動物吃東西，還用強力水柱噴地上，甚而噴在狗狗身上，這其實是非常非常嚴重的虐待行為。在我們知道之後，我有向基隆的公立收容所做洽詢，他說這位李姓管理員已經被調離現職，但問題是調離現職之後呢？我接下來就想要問，到底我們平常的收容所裡頭是怎麼樣去篩選這些管理員？有什麼樣的資格？一個不適任的人員為什麼可以負責照顧這些被收容的動物？這是我非常大的一個質疑。還有他涉及虐待動物的部分，我們事後應該要怎麼樣做懲處？是不是應該要追究？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我覺得委員提到一個非常重要的部分，就是當收容動物的收容所反而變成一個虐待動物的場所，那是絕對不對的，這牽涉到收容管理人員的基本訓練及他的信念。以現在來講，收容人員的聘任並沒有相關的職能訓練或標準，我覺得後續一定要朝這方面檢討，就是聘任的這些收容人員必須要有一些基本的條件。"],["郭委員昱晴：不是只有考慮這個問題、檢討這個問題，然後就沒有……"],["陳部長駿季：然後後續……"],["郭委員昱晴：後續要怎麼樣建立這些制度，讓地方政府的公立收容所真的能夠依照這個制度來進行動物的照顧跟管理，這些動物其實關在裡頭更容易被虐待，問題是對於管理員並沒有任何的篩選，也沒有任何的懲處，只是調離現職而已，這個答案我沒有辦法接受。"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得也不適合只有調離現職，但是相對的，以現在的規範來講，我們會更強化後續管理的SOP。我舉個例子，就像我們到一些比較大的超商、賣場的廁所一樣，它都有相關的規範以及怎麼樣去處理，如果我們在收容的場所裡面導入這個制度，它必須要用什麼樣的方式，用漸進式的方式……"],["郭委員昱晴：所以現在是沒有導入這個制度嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：現在是沒有。"],["郭委員昱晴：管理辦法什麼時候可以儘快出來？"],["江司長文全：我們6月底之前把它完成。"],["陳部長駿季：也是6月底，我們把新的規範全部確認一次，包括檢核的清單、檢核的check list，這樣的話，第一個，收容人員的訓練要做、篩選要做，篩選可能比較慢一點，但是在職訓練可能馬上啟動。第二個部分就是管理的SOP、管理的check list一定要落實。"],["郭委員昱晴：6月？"],["陳部長駿季：對，6月底。"],["郭委員昱晴：6月底出來？"],["陳部長駿季：6月底出來。"],["郭委員昱晴：之後要怎麼樣去審核地方政府的公立收容所有沒有依照這個？也會有一個審核的機制嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我想他們每一次的檢核表應該有一個上傳的機制，然後我們會去檢查，不同縣市可能強度會不一樣，針對執行比較差的會列入加強查核。"],["郭委員昱晴：也會實際的稽查跟懲處？"],["陳部長駿季：對，實際的查核是一定要的。"],["郭委員昱晴：一定會？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們期待6月，如果訊息能夠早一點出來，再麻煩提供給我們辦公室。"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們會先把check list這些東西送請委員指正。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝部長。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員。","下一位請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員不在。","請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員不在。","下一位請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-13","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","郭昱晴","陳冠廷","張雅琳","呂玉玲"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等 30案；二、處理或\n審查114年度中央政府總預算有關公平交易委員會主管預算凍結案等8案","agenda_id":"1145101_00004"}}},{"id":"161558","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161558","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f0c8e3d5546c282b3798327315c1c974550be1aa9793fcacdd4c7f6e4539bc04505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:45:06 - 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下面質詢請蔡議員好 謝謝主席那我們是不是有請這個農業部部長 請農業部陳部長"},{"start":27.001,"end":44.275,"text":"部長好部長今天的解凍案中其中有一案是關於嘉義的茶改廠的興建那我想要請教一下說未來我們解凍案之後以及柴桿產的興建的進度那是不是可以說明一下"},{"start":46.044,"end":69.646,"text":"謝謝委員我們當初的茶開場本身我們是用雙種廠制就是在原來的種廠跟嘉義這邊那你也知道在過程中有一些曲折就是包括選地的時候可能土壤的地質不適合種茶所以我們做了一些調整那現在我們把相關的計畫已經報院了那院裡面他覺得現在的"},{"start":70.868,"end":95.995,"text":"要蓋一個總廠它的經費的問題啦所以我準備今天下午今天會議完了以後我會再召開一個專案會議去確認說今天下午我會召開專案會議去確定我們所有的要下一步要怎麼走的這些包括預算包括相關的這些規劃然後再去提出更好的說明跟讓行政院同意那相關的會議如果討論完了以後我第一時間會讓這個訊息給跟委員報告"},{"start":99.216,"end":105.859,"text":"我想部長因為就雙種廠所以事實上他們走的方向也不一樣我們嘉義這邊除了茶之外甚至我們把咖啡的部分飲料的部分飲料咖啡也變成未來嘉義的廠"},{"start":115.462,"end":130.111,"text":"主要的一個研究的範圍所以方向不同但是我們也知道說阿里山的茶阿里山的咖啡這幾年事實上整個它的品牌都打出來所以我們需要更強而有力政府的背書讓它的這個品牌價值可以更高這個我想部長這個從這樣來"},{"start":134.594,"end":163.286,"text":"我想非常認同 特別是阿里山的茶葉 其實越來越讓國外人知道了他的一些茶的品質也好 他的風味也好然後再加上他茶跟其他的飲料做調和 包括咖啡有沒有這些部分都值得在嘉義變成一個雙種場的概念所以我們是朝這個目標 只是說因為經費的關係 我們看可不可以調整一些現在的規模 然後來符合我們行政院的要求這個部分我想我們會來努力"},{"start":163.706,"end":182.158,"text":"好我想就積極溝通喔如果現在就是說跟行政院最後的意見交換那我想我們就趕快來處理然後看行政院這邊的意見怎樣然後大家趕快來做一個最後的一個核定好不好好我們會來努力第二個問題就是說我們嘉義阿里山"},{"start":183.896,"end":199.06,"text":"最近這幾年我們本來就是特產叫高足叫歌順這個叫高足他現在又因為染病他這個病叫作醜業病"},{"start":201.781,"end":220.252,"text":"這因為染了這個細菌,然後整個阿里山的山區,這個竹筍就大量的死亡而且這個死亡,就是說它這個破片後,在地上剩沒哪裡沒哪裡,等於說它就發不出來,所以未來可以想像的就是這裡的竹林"},{"start":221.112,"end":230.296,"text":"全軍覆沒了,而且一旦染病之後又不可逆他連土壤都被感染了,所以未來這頓也發出來,也是定義賣大漢、賣大漢賣定義都溫馨啦,不會讓他硬起來所以看起來,這個教高組的狀況,這個可以說"},{"start":244.942,"end":270.986,"text":"是屬於這裡產業的一個天災那我想要請教部長那你們現在要怎麼有什麼方向來來做這個後續的處理我跟委員報告那個教高族本身的染病那基本上我們判斷是可能跟逐年的老化沒有及時的更新有關那雖然說我們已經有做一些用藥的指導可是相對的就像委員剛才說的他可能會整片的部分"},{"start":271.446,"end":283.275,"text":"所以其實最有效的話是整片去做竹林的更新或者是你竹林砍伐以後去照領我們有新的獎勵照領6年6年就可以領到應該60萬吧55到60萬或者是竹林更新我們也會有獎勵從明年開始"},{"start":291.65,"end":305.603,"text":"部長我就要說這個事實上這個孫子他可能高生都沒有了全都出一生事實上你要做竹林的更新竹林的更新他可能這個並沒有徹底更新"},{"start":309.199,"end":326.368,"text":"跟絕錢他可能會再發所以你看起來竹林更新這件事情是一個問號所以現在地方又有在講說我們不然就走向造林那造林出來阿爹夫婉意配合官吏未來這個整個林場會很漂亮喔"},{"start":327.388,"end":347.084,"text":"而且造林也可以創造了我們現在大家在講淨林碳排然後要有所謂的森林碳會那就是森林碳會最好的地方但是問題來了如果我們以六年我們說55萬到60萬這樣的金額事實上對地方現在的竹農吸引力不夠"},{"start":349.319,"end":365.066,"text":"這個變成吸引力不夠 你要思考喔一般來這個是一個經濟作物喔他們是有很好的收入的喔結果你現在要把他轉向說好你們走向造林以後你們就去管理這個林場結果他自己的生計會產生問題"},{"start":366.807,"end":391.176,"text":"所以我覺得部長要去思考一下我們既然要讓他們來走向造林走向不一樣的一個森林的管理但是這樣的一個補助沒有誘因的話要怎麼讓這些竹農維持生計呢我想第一個就是說我們現在的造林獎勵六年從原來的二十年六十萬到變成六年六十萬那個時間縮短了第二個部分就是他六年完成以後還會有持續的撫育的經費"},{"start":392.877,"end":410.118,"text":"還有一個非常重要的就是它有它的碳匯的價值然後這個部分我想我們會來協助我們轉噪鈴的部分透過ESG也好或其他的方式也好去取得這些碳匯的這些金額那這樣的話無形中也會增加它的一些收入"},{"start":411.294,"end":427.78,"text":"就是這個碳會 但是這個碳會價值還要經環境部的一個一個方法學的一個方法學嘛對 但是這個碳會部分就是這樣啦它都必須要屬於企業合作社才會取得但是我剛剛在講的是個人啦"},{"start":428.62,"end":451.958,"text":"事實上讓他們 讓這些主農來管理這個碳匯到底會回到個人那個人怎麼去使用這個碳匯這個還是有這個運作上的困難我想我們林保署會去做媒合特別是個體戶的部分怎麼樣去連了許多的個體戶變成一個比較大的量能的時候再去跟企業做對接這個部分我想林保署一直在做這樣的協助"},{"start":452.679,"end":469.746,"text":"好 沒關係 我覺得這兩個問題都很要緊的啦從擦開場 從我們這個較高族的這樣的一個森林的場域未來要走向造林也是要兼顧這裡竹農他們未來的生計我想這個農業部可能在前提我們會放在心裡好 那再麻煩 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":809,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時39分）謝謝主席，我們是不是有請農業部部長？"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長好。部長，今天的解凍案其中有一案是關於嘉義茶改場的興建，那我想要請教未來我們解凍之後以及茶改場的興建進度，是不是可以說明一下？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員，我們當初的茶改場本身是用雙總場制，就是在原來的總場跟嘉義這邊，你也知道在過程中有一些曲折，就是包括選地的時候，可能土壤的地質不適合種茶，所以我們做了一些調整，現在我們把相關的計畫已經報院了，院裡面覺得現在要蓋一個總場有經費的問題，所以今天下午會議完了以後，我會再召開一個專案會議去確認說……"],["蔡委員易餘：就正好今天要召開專案會議？"],["陳部長駿季：對，今天下午我會召開專案會議去確定我們所有下一步要怎麼走，包括預算、包括相關的這些規劃，然後再去提出更好的說明讓行政院同意，相關的會議如果討論完了以後，我第一時間會將這個訊息跟委員報告。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，部長，因為就雙總場嘛！所以事實上他們走的方向也不一樣，我們嘉義這邊除了茶之外，甚至我們把咖啡的部分……"],["陳部長駿季：飲料的部分。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，飲料、咖啡也變成未來嘉義場的主要研究範圍，所以方向不同，但是我們也知道阿里山的茶、阿里山的咖啡，這幾年事實上整個品牌都打出來，所以我們需要更強而有力的政府背書，讓它的品牌價值可以更高，我想部長從這樣來努力是沒有問題的。"],["陳部長駿季：我非常認同，特別是阿里山的茶葉其實越來越讓國外的人知道，它的一些茶的品質也好、風味也好，然後再加上茶跟其他的飲料做調和，包括咖啡有沒有，這些部分都值得在嘉義變成一個雙總場的概念，所以我們是朝這個目標，只是說因為經費的關係，我們看可不可以調整一些現在的規模，然後來符合行政院的要求，這個部分我想我們會來努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我想就積極溝通，如果現在就是跟行政院最後的意見交換，我們就趕快來處理，然後看行政院這邊的意見怎樣，大家趕快來做最後的核定好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，我們會來努力。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個問題，就是說我們嘉義阿里山最近這幾年，我們本來都特產轎篙竹，這個轎篙竹現在因為染病，這個病叫做簇葉病，因為染了這個細菌，然後整個阿里山的山區，這個竹筍就大量死亡，而且它生病之後就變軟，等於說它就長不出來了，所以未來可以想像的就是這裡的竹林全軍覆沒，而且一旦染病之後又不可逆，連土壤都被感染了，所以未來這些竹筍就算長出來也長不大，等於都「軟心」，不會硬起來，所以看起來這個轎篙竹的狀況可以說是屬於產業的天災，我想要請教部長，你們現在有什麼方向來做後續的處理？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，轎篙竹本身的染病，基本上我們判斷是可能跟竹林老化沒有及時更新有關，雖然我們已經有做一些用藥的指導，可是相對的，就像委員剛才說的，它可能會整片受影響，所以其實最有效的方式是整片去做竹林的更新，或者是竹林砍伐以後去造林，我們有新的獎勵造林，6年就可以領到55到60萬，或者是竹林更新我們也會有獎勵，從明年開始。"],["蔡委員易餘：我就是要說這個啦，就是這些筍子可能九成以上都沒有了，差不多剩一成，事實上你要做竹林的更新，就是我說的，可能病沒有澈底根絕前，它可能會再發，所以看起來竹林更新這件事情是一個問號，所以現在地方又在講說不然我們就走向造林，造林出來呢？地方願意配合管理，未來整個林場會很漂亮喔！而且造林了也可以創造我們現在大家都在講淨零碳排，然後要有所謂的森林碳匯，就是森林碳匯最好的地方。但是問題來了，如果我們以6年55萬到60萬這樣的金額，事實上對地方現在的竹農吸引力不夠，你要思考喔，本來這是一個經濟作物，他們採這些竹筍是有很好的收入的喔，結果你現在要把它轉向說你們走向造林，以後你們就去管理這個林場，結果他自己的生計會產生問題，所以我覺得部長要去思考一下，我們既然要讓他們走向造林、走向不一樣的森林管理，但是這樣的補助沒有誘因的話，要怎麼讓這一些竹農維持生計呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我想第一個就是說我們現在的造林獎勵從原來的20年60萬變成6年60萬，時間縮短了。第二個部分就是6年完成以後，還會有持續的撫育經費，還有一個非常重要就是它有它的碳匯價值，針對這個部分，我們會來協助轉造林，透過ESG或其他的方式去取得這些碳匯的金額，這樣在無形中也會增加他的一些收入。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是這個碳匯價值還要經環境部的方法學。"],["陳部長駿季：對，但是我們會來協助農民。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是碳匯部分就是這樣，都必須要屬於企業、合作社才會取得，但我剛剛在講的是個人啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在就是……"],["蔡委員易餘：事實上讓這些竹農下去管理，這個碳匯到底如何回到個人，個人怎麼去使用這個碳匯？這還是有運作上的困難。"],["陳部長駿季：我們林保署會去做媒合，特別是個體戶的部分，怎麼聯合許多個體戶去變成比較大的量能時再跟企業做對接，關於這個部分，林保署一直在做這樣的協助。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，沒關係，我覺得這兩個問題都很重要，從茶改場、從轎篙竹這樣的森林場域，未來要走向造林也是要兼顧這裡竹農的未來生計，我想農業部可能再……"],["陳部長駿季：是，這個前提我們會放在心裡。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，再麻煩，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員，部長請回座。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘）：下一位請郭昱晴委員。你難得來經濟委員會，讓你講久一點。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-13","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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相信今天其實所有的委員都非常的在意就是有關前立委林昶佐將接任芬蘭代表的這個事情"},{"start":35.077,"end":38.978,"text":"當然執政黨都是非常稱讚林昶佐說他過去長期待在外交國防委員會所以熟悉我國的國防的政策但外界仍然是有一些質疑但是林昶佐過去他有用一個焦慮症的理由沒有服兵役但是這個已經引發了一些爭議然後其實在醫學上焦慮跟憂鬱其實是兩種不同的類型的情緒上面的困擾"},{"start":61.963,"end":70.687,"text":"但是這個常常會一起發生然後芬蘭有高居不下的自殺率在1990年的時候芬蘭是全球自殺率最高的國家而且北歐這些國家都是日照很短的國家其實這種病症是很容易發作的所以我在想說他真的適合去擔任芬蘭的代表嗎還是因為他是有綠色黨證的特定人士然後讓你們"},{"start":89.235,"end":94.417,"text":"突然忽略他的健康的問題這樣會不會造成他的問題很慷慮啊其實這一點是我們非常擔心的因為你們千萬不要害他其實北歐這些國家根本在於他這種焦慮症憂鬱症的人是不太適合去那個地方的那我想如果是說外交部已經選任林昶佐要出任芬蘭大使的這個消息已經屬實了那你覺得"},{"start":114.625,"end":138.723,"text":"還有一點就是外交人員可以接受嗎可以信任和甘心的服從嗎那請部長林長佐委員他的背景還有專業是屬於深任那至於說他的兵役或者他的病史我想我們就不待為回答這部分他應該有對社會會做說明那我們是從整體的佈局在北歐"},{"start":140.004,"end":156.421,"text":"這個整個區域我們要發揮最大的總和外交的效應的話如果一個對於人權關心然後有音樂的專長然後能夠做文化外交我想對整個區域跟台灣的關係的提升我們是有所期待"},{"start":157.442,"end":178.27,"text":"當然現在這個人事案是在作業中還沒有他需要由總統基於他的任命那總統府來公告那是因為委員關心那我想我自己也來自於民意代表我也知道在我的範圍內盡量跟大家說明至於說他個人的這個身體的情形這我比較不方便來代言"},{"start":180.46,"end":199.592,"text":"因為我知道我是一個建議因為北歐國家真的不太適合有這種病症的人去當然人要健康的情況下才有辦法做好任何事情所以我在想說我還是提醒部長外交工作真的是推動非常的不容易一定要多方面的評估啊而且也還要為財適用才行"},{"start":203.885,"end":210.967,"text":"接下來我再想請問一下WHA世界衛生大會的議題今天請問到今天WHA會議都已經開始了我們這次應該沒有收到邀請函是不是對沒有那部長那你覺得自從民進黨執政到現在已經八年了然後連WHA的觀察員這個身份都失去了但我們台灣的醫療在全世界其實都是前段班的新冠疫情的時候其實全球的防疫也是做得非常的好但是"},{"start":233.995,"end":238.4,"text":"遲遲都沒有辦法叩關成功這樣是否表示我們的外交工作還是要有很大的努力空間那想請教部長一下就是WHA這是我們第九年嘛沒有收到這個邀請函但是我們總不可能一直都把這個責任推給中國的問題嘛否則我們台灣醫療再怎麼樣進步我們都沒有辦法"},{"start":255.559,"end":261.021,"text":"進去世界衛生組織裡面所以有些訊息我們就沒有辦法跟世界接軌那我想要拜託部長你是不是要好好勸勸賴總統他自己也是醫生醫者人心千萬不要為了一己之心讓政治影響到全台灣人民的健康所以部長那你贊成本席的看法嗎還有說外交部有什麼想法想要爭取世界衛生組織還有你們未來你們是要怎麼樣突破這一個困境呢"},{"start":283.493,"end":313.073,"text":"我們爭取參加世界衛生組織是基於基本人權普世價值以外其實也是對世界的貢獻所以我們沒有參加也是世界的損失但是我們基於對國人我們希望健康的促進或保障我們很多的方法在周邊的一些技術性的會議也是有一定的參與因為現在的情形是大家都了解"},{"start":313.613,"end":340.002,"text":"涉及到中國他的這個壓力尤其是他用這個所謂的聯合國2758號決議那麼在這個問題上越多越來的國家表態是說明其實所謂2758號決議並沒有辦法排除台灣參加世界衛生組織這個在外交戰場是很重要甚至支持台灣的立場越來越多那至於說其他的方式我們怎麼去呈現這一個"},{"start":342.163,"end":364.845,"text":"台灣沒有參加世界衛生組織是一個違反WHO的宗旨我們有很多的活動以外這一次比如透過智慧醫療數位的科技的解決方案包括AI這也是我們在APEC裡面其實都透過數位醫療在推展的那在WHO我們這次有包括像宏基智一廣達電腦他們"},{"start":368.008,"end":382.438,"text":"我知道你們都有努力但是已經那麼多年來了我們總是要突破這個困境嘛那沒關係因為還有很多問題要問就是說現在我還是希望外交部還是要很努力啦我們還是希望能看到一個好的成果主席再給我兩分鐘謝謝"},{"start":384.6,"end":397.351,"text":"然後接下來我想要繼續追蹤一下就是我們南非代表處的被迫遷離的問題今年3月的時候然後南非外交部也幫官網上面的台北聯絡代表處改成台北商務辦事處其實這個看到這個是真的是非常的難過啦"},{"start":400.734,"end":404.497,"text":"因為台北雖然大部分是我國駐外代表處的名稱但是這是我們台灣為了加入國際組織不得已的妥協的方案但是如今我們現在連一個地方政府都不是了而是國際組織所以南非外交部擅自更改我們的住處的名稱地址刪除我國的駐外代表知道我們不願意遷離嘛就只好用這一個名義來達到目的其實這樣的行為已經是不是不禮貌了而是不尊重了而且讓我們"},{"start":428.493,"end":443.353,"text":"感受到非常的受欺負那部長我們中華民國是國際組織嗎還有就連廖文哲大使的介紹都被刪除了這個是有損國格的事情那你們外交部竟然可以忍還可以吞下這個羞辱嗎所以我想說"},{"start":445.276,"end":448.198,"text":"經過最近的外交部的評估我在覺得南非政府會不會是真的真心要強制驅離我們呢還是只是要用一個表態配合中國的演出然後演給中共看一下大內宣看的這樣的情況而已呢那你部長你覺得有什麼可以向我們說明的嗎有"},{"start":466.243,"end":485.751,"text":"我們在南非社台灣的代表處這是基於我們兩國的協議啊任何的變更都需要經過諮商談判的過程所以我們除了抗議然後持續交涉我們也據理力爭至於在這個過程當中他片面的行為我們這個"},{"start":488.553,"end":511.55,"text":"如果他要強迫我們搬離的時候,已經有這樣的行動我們會有反制,這個反制包括從各個方面他應該也都理解,可是為什麼他還是做了這些動作包括擅自改名,把一些資訊拿掉,矮化我們"},{"start":513.114,"end":534.768,"text":"不然全世界都了解這是中國的壓力其實我覺得這種情況是越來越慘耶因為我記得我們上一次進行中也是有執行過你看他這樣做之後除了美國的政府、國會之外像南非現在要爭取美國在ACOIA就是非洲成長機會法案他可能就會有困難"},{"start":536.029,"end":559.117,"text":"那麼另外就是說他國內也很多的不同聲音因為他的外交並沒有尊重執政聯盟所以執政聯盟你的政黨裡面公開的國會議員也表示反對的意見甚至有一些在野黨也拜訪台灣所以這些媒體大家都知道南非這樣做是站不住腳可是為什麼他還這樣做那我們就知道說背後有一些原因那為什麼只做到目前這個情況"},{"start":560.177,"end":565.079,"text":"後來會不會再更重的這些行動我們當然都必須要密切觀察跟妥善因應因為今年是南非舉辦G20它跟中國之間的關係是非常密切那中國對它的影響力當然很大不過我們也並不是沒有辦法反制只是我們不希望兩敗俱傷的方式所以我們當然在現在這個情形我們還在管控中"},{"start":587.648,"end":614.417,"text":"但一旦超過了一個範圍我們準備好的方案也會予以反制我還是要提醒一下就是我國駐南非使館的事情其實剛才部長也說應該是跟中國都有關係但是台灣對於這種層出不窮的這種外交事件我覺得我們真的我國應該對外關係有一些難題一定有一些解方然後因為不能把這種外交工作表現不利全部都甩鍋給中國"},{"start":615.717,"end":620.741,"text":"尤其是斷交部長吳釗燮他自己養了共諜讓台灣失去那麼多邦交國到現在都在國安會都不敢來備詢面對責任我覺得這是不太負責任的態度但是我相信林部長你現在有你擔任外交部長我覺得肯定你是一個非常願意承擔責任的一個好部長所以我想中國打壓台灣這已經不是新聞了啦所以政府一定要對這個要面對要看要怎麼樣努力解決溝通那我們"},{"start":646.118,"end":671.765,"text":"來這樣把這個問題好好的解決那部長你說對嗎對因為中共在國際影響力越來越大那但是我們這賴總統上任來到下一年我們還是固守我們12個邦交國而且我們是固邦以外我們現在透過龍邦希望能夠擴展我們國際空間所以為什麼要做總和外交需要立法院的支持包括我們在經濟外交龍邦計畫上這個是台灣有很多人家想要跟我們合作的"},{"start":672.225,"end":695.148,"text":"那我們過去外交部歸外交部可能其他部歸其他部所以我們現在也召開雙部長會議行政院也有經濟外交工作小組我們就是整合我們跨部會的資源甚至民間的企業界那比如說我們過去強調援助可是現在強調投資那投資甚至也跟美國日本到第三國所以我們的新的外交的策略我們也會向國人報告我們在這個"},{"start":696.409,"end":709.484,"text":"等川普這個關稅這個政策比較明朗化之後那我今天也有在媒體啊也有總結就是說川普政府相對過去拜登政府我們賴總統從去年520這前後這個"},{"start":714.629,"end":731.294,"text":"對應是美國的兩任的政府所以我們在政策上現在已經慢慢的可以比較能夠去就是對應啦那怎麼樣能夠發揮台美合作在我們邦交國比如說Rubio國務卿他到了這個中美洲他跟瓜地馬拉的總統"},{"start":732.074,"end":758.255,"text":"在開記者會就有提到很肯定他跟台灣維持關係那也希望促進投資那我們現在跟美國我們有EPPD經濟繁榮夥伴的對話也有所謂的機會夥伴的投資考察團這些都是我們現在用新的方式希望結合理念相近跟利益比較一致的去"},{"start":759.416,"end":778.488,"text":"從故邦、榮邦甚至到拓邦有一些國家事實上對我們發展模式相對於中共的一帶一路那一種模式造成了很多債務危機事實上是很多問題是精英俘虜也就是說中國其實在很多國家其實他做兵符符合那些國家人民的意義而是少數的政治精英"},{"start":779.409,"end":786.396,"text":"跟他利益交換為什麼我們會那麼辛苦就是說中共進去之後我們就會很難了那我再請問一下就是自從民進黨蔡英文前總統上任到現在總共有十個國家已經跟我們斷交了而且身邊的共諜吳釗燮前部長六年內他斷交了八個國家然後最後跟我們斷交的是諾魯嘛是去年一月份嘛"},{"start":803.712,"end":805.893,"text":"所以剛才部長談到邦交國的問題說像我們現在這一次的梵蒂岡的前教宗方濟各的葬禮還有上週的新教宗的糧食逝世的就職那為什麼賴清德總統都沒有親自率團出席呢"},{"start":820.822,"end":827.227,"text":"是不是不願意呢那如果這樣的話我們跟其他的國家還有之前的我們的總統的做法是不是會讓教廷誤認為說我們不重視他這樣是不是會有失禮儀這樣對我們未來的外交還有這些邦交國會不會有影響啊"},{"start":836.835,"end":840.756,"text":"我們當然跟范帝剛是都溝通那最後是用這樣的方式在現階段由陳副總統擔任總統特使去那因為他對教廷也熟之外其實可以跟高層很多的溝通那他也有表達我們希望台范關係可以回到更正常的軌道"},{"start":856.382,"end":883.359,"text":"過去一些因素大家也了解在前教宗他任內有一些跟中國的包括他們的簽訂所謂主教任命臨時協議那個東西的影響我們現在怎麼樣能夠跟新教宗有新的可能性的空間那我們基於信任也就基於說我們從宗教進入對於包括這些天主教徒在台灣他們跟教廷的關係所以我們有綜合的考量我們不是沒有去推動"},{"start":884.259,"end":896.015,"text":"包括元首的這個...反正我知道因為部長真的我們沒有辦法能讓一個邦交國再跟我們國家斷交了所以我覺得外交部還是我們大家一起做這個努力好我們全力以赴謝謝林一駿"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":686,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（11時29分）謝謝主席，有請外交部林佳龍部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["林委員憶君：部長好。最近外交部問題其實也蠻多的，我有很多問題要問，我想請部長等一下簡短的做重點回答。部長，相信今天其實所有委員都非常的在意有關前立委林昶佐將接任芬蘭代表的這個事情，當然執政黨都是非常稱讚林昶佐，說他過去長期待在外交及國防委員會，所以熟悉我國的國防政策，但外界仍然是有一些質疑。林昶佐在過去是以焦慮症為理由而沒有服兵役，這個已經引發了一些爭議，在醫學上焦慮跟憂鬱其實是兩種不同類型的情緒上困擾，但是這是常常會一起發生。在芬蘭的自殺率高居不下，在1990年芬蘭是全球自殺率最高的國家，而且北歐這些國家都是日照很短的國家，其實這種病症是很容易發作的，所以我在想他真的適合去擔任芬蘭的代表嗎？還是因為他是有綠色黨證的特定人士，然後讓你們突然忽略他的健康問題，這樣會不會造成他的健康很堪慮，其實這一點是我們非常擔心的，你們千萬不要害他，其實在北歐的這些國家，像他這種有焦慮症、憂鬱症的人根本不太適合去那個地方。我想如果外交部選任林昶佐出任芬蘭大使的這個消息已經屬實了，那還有一點就是你覺得外交人員可以接受嗎？他們可以信任和甘心的服從嗎？請部長說明。"],["林部長佳龍：林昶佐委員的背景還有專業是足以勝任，至於說他的兵役或者他的病史，我想我們就不代為回答，這部分他應該會對社會做說明。我們是從整體的布局，在北歐這整個區域我們要發揮最大的總合外交的效應，如果一個人關心人權又有音樂的專長，然後能夠做文化外交，我想對整個區域跟臺灣關係的提升我們是有所期待。當然現在這個人事案是在作業中，需要總統基於對他的任命然後由總統府來公告，因為委員很關心，我自己也當過民意代表，所以在我知道的範圍內儘量跟大家說明，至於他個人的身體情形，我比較不方便來代為發言，抱歉！"],["林委員憶君：對，我知道，我只是提一個建議，因為北歐國家真的不太適合有這種病症的人去，當然人要在健康的情況下才有辦法做好任何事情，所以我還是要提醒部長，外交工作的推動真的是非常不容易，一定要多方面的評估，而且要唯才是用才行。","接下來我想再請問一下WHA世界衛生大會的議題，到今天WHA會議都已經開始了，我們這次應該沒有收到邀請函，是不是？"],["林部長佳龍：對，沒有。"],["林委員憶君：部長，自從民進黨執政到現在已經8年了，然後連WHA的觀察員這個身分都失去了，但我們臺灣的醫療在全世界其實都是前段班的，在新冠疫情的時候，其實我們的防疫也是做得非常的好，但是遲遲都沒有辦法叩關成功，這樣是否表示我們的外交工作還是有很大的努力空間？請教部長，這是我們第9年沒有收到WHA邀請函，但是我們總不可能一直都把這個責任推給是中國的問題，否則我們臺灣的醫療再怎麼樣進步都沒有辦法進入世界衛生組織裡面，所以有些訊息我們就沒有辦法與世界接軌。我想要拜託部長，是不是好好勸勸賴總統，他自己也是醫生，醫者仁心，千萬不要為了一己之私，讓政治影響到全臺灣人民的健康，所以部長，你贊成本席的看法嗎？還有外交部有什麼想法來爭取世界衛生組織、還有未來你們要怎麼樣突破這個困境呢？"],["林部長佳龍：我們爭取參加世界衛生組織是基於基本人權的普世價值以外，其實也是對世界的貢獻，所以我們沒有參加也是世界的損失，但是基於對國人健康的促進或保障，我們有很多的方法，在周邊的一些技術性會議也是有一定的參與。因為現在的情形是大家都瞭解涉及到中國的壓力，尤其是它用所謂的聯合國2758號決議，在這個問題上越來越多國家表態、說明，其實所謂的2758號決議並沒有辦法排除臺灣參加世界衛生組織，這在外交戰場是很重要的，甚至支持臺灣的立場越來越多。至於其他的方式，我們怎麼去呈現臺灣沒有參加世界衛生組織是違反WHO的宗旨，我們有很多的活動以外，這一次比如透過智慧醫療、數位科技的解決方案，包括AI，這也是我們在APEC裡面透過數位醫療在推展的，在WHO的部分，我們這次有包括宏碁智醫、廣達電腦的科技應用。"],["林委員憶君：部長，我知道你們都有努力，但是已經那麼多年來了，我們總是要突破這個困境，沒關係，因為還有很多問題要問，現在我還是希望外交部要很努力，我們還是希望能看到一個好的成果。主席，再給我2分鐘，謝謝。","接下來，我想要繼續追蹤我們南非代表處被迫遷離的問題，今年3月的時候南非外交部把官網上面的臺北聯絡代表處改成臺北商務辦事處，其實看到這個真的是非常地難過，臺北雖然大部分是我國駐外代表處的名稱，但這是我們臺灣為了加入國際組織不得已的妥協方案。如今我們現在連一個地方政府都不是了，而是國際組織，南非外交部擅自更改我們的駐處名稱、地址，刪除我國的駐外代表，它知道我們不願意遷離，所以只好用這一個名義來達到目的，其實這樣的行為已經不是不禮貌，而是不尊重了，而且讓我們感受到非常的受欺負。部長，我們中華民國是國際組織嗎？還有就連廖文哲大使的介紹都被刪除了，這個是有損國格的事情，你們外交部竟然可以忍，還可以吞下這個羞辱嗎？經過外交部最近的評估，我覺得南非政府會不會是真的真心要強制驅離我們呢？還是只是要表態並配合中國的演出，就大內宣演給中共看一下這樣的情況而已呢？部長，你覺得有什麼可以向我們說明的嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：有，我們在南非設臺灣代表處是基於我們兩國的協議，任何的變更都需要經過諮商談判的過程，所以除了抗議、持續交涉，我們也據理力爭，至於在這個過程當中，對於它片面的行為，除了抗議之外，我們也不予承認。但是如果它要強迫我們搬離的時候，已經有這樣的行動，我們會有反制，這個反制包括從各個方面，它應該也都理解，可是為什麼它還是做了這一些動作，包括擅自改名，然後把一些資訊拿掉，矮化我們，全世界都瞭解這是中國的壓力。"],["林委員憶君：其實我覺得這種情況是越來越慘，因為我記得我們上一次的質詢也有質詢過。"],["林部長佳龍：可是這個是兩面刃，它這樣做之後，除了美國政府、國會之外，像南非現在要爭取美國的非洲成長暨機會法案（AGOA）可能就會有困難。另外，它國內也有很多的不同聲音，因為它的外交並沒有尊重執政聯盟，所以執政聯盟政黨裡面的國會議員也公開表示反對意見，甚至有一些在野黨也拜訪過臺灣，媒體大家都知道南非這樣做是站不住腳的，可是為什麼它還這樣做，我們就知道是背後有一些原因，為什麼只做到目前這個情況，後來會不會再有更重的行動？我們當然都必須要密切觀察和妥善因應。因為今年是南非舉辦G20，它跟中國之間的關係是非常密切，中國對它的影響力當然很大，不過我們也並不是沒有辦法反制，只是我們不希望是兩敗俱傷的方式，所以現在這個情形我們還在管控中，一旦超過了一個範圍，我們準備好的方案也會予以反制。"],["林委員憶君：我還是要提醒一下，我國駐南非使館的事情，其實剛才部長也說應該是跟中國都有關係，但是臺灣對於這種層出不窮的外交事件，我覺得我國的對外關係有一些難題，一定也有一些解方，因為不能把這種外交工作表現不力全部都甩鍋給中國。尤其是斷交部長吳釗燮，他自己養了共諜，讓臺灣失去那麼多邦交國，到現在還躲在國安會都不敢來備詢面對責任，我覺得這是不太負責任的態度，但是我相信林部長，現在由你擔任外交部長，我肯定你是一個非常願意承擔責任的好部長，我想中國打壓臺灣已經不是新聞了，所以政府對於這個問題一定要面對，看要怎麼樣努力解決、溝通，我們把這個問題好好的解決，部長，對嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對，因為中共在國際影響力越來越大，但是賴總統上任以來到現在一年，我們還是固守我們12個邦交國，而且我們除了固邦以外，現在透過榮邦希望能夠擴展我們的國際空間，所以為什麼要做總和外交，也需要立法院的支持，包括我們在經濟外交榮邦計畫上，就是臺灣有很多人家想要跟我們合作的部分，但是我們過去是外交部歸外交部，可能其他部會是歸其他部會。所以我們現在也召開雙部長會議，行政院也有經濟外交工作小組，來整合跨部會的資源，甚至民間的企業界，比如我們過去強調援助，可是現在強調投資，投資甚至也跟美國、日本到第三國，所以我們新的外交策略也會向國人報告，等川普的關稅政策比較明朗化之後，我今天也有在媒體總結，川普政府相對於過去的拜登政府，賴總統從去年520以來前後對應美國的兩任政府，所以我們在政策上現在已經慢慢的比較能夠去對應。","至於怎麼樣能夠發揮臺美合作在我們的邦交國上，比如盧比歐國務卿到了中美洲跟瓜地馬拉總統開記者會就有提到，很肯定他跟臺灣維持關係，也希望促進投資，我們現在也跟美國有經濟繁榮夥伴對話（EPPD），也有所謂的機會夥伴投資考察團，這些都是我們現在用新的方式，希望結合理念相近跟利益比較一致的，從固邦、榮邦甚至到拓邦。有一些國家事實上對於我們的發展模式，相對於中共的一帶一路，那一種模式造成了很多債務危機，事實上很多問題是菁英俘虜，也就是中國在很多國家做的並不符合那些國家人民的利益，而是少數的政治菁英跟他利益交換，為什麼我們會那麼辛苦？中共進去之後，我們就會很難。"],["林委員憶君：主席，再給我一點時間，剛才講到邦交國，我再請問一下，自從民進黨蔡英文前總統上任到現在，總共有10個國家已經跟我們斷交了，而且身邊的共諜吳釗燮前部長6年內斷交了8個國家，最後跟我們斷交的是去年1月份的諾魯。所以剛才部長談到邦交國的問題，就像這一次梵蒂岡前教宗方濟各的葬禮，還有上週新教宗良十四世的就職，為什麼賴清德總統都沒有親自率團出席，是不是不願意呢？如果這樣的話，我們跟其他國家，還有之前我們總統的作法是不是會讓教廷誤認為我們不重視他，這樣是不是有失禮儀，對我們未來的外交，還有這些邦交國會不會有影響？"],["林部長佳龍：我們當然跟梵蒂岡是做溝通，最後是用這樣的方式，在現階段由陳副總統擔任總統特使去，因為他除了對教廷也熟之外，其實跟高層也可以有很多的溝通，他也有表達，我們希望臺梵關係可以回到更正常的軌道，大家也了解過去一些因素，在前教宗任內有一些跟中國的，包括他們簽訂所謂主教任命臨時性協議，那個東西的影響，我們現在怎麼跟新教宗有新的可能性的空間，我們基於信任，我們從宗教進入，包括這些在臺灣的天主教徒，他們跟教廷的關係，所以我們有綜合的考量，我們不是沒有去推動，包括元首的部分。"],["林委員憶君：我知道，因為部長，我們真的沒有辦法再讓一個邦交國跟我們國家斷交了，所以我覺得外交部還是……大家一起做這個努力，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，我們全力以赴。"],["主席：謝謝林憶君委員的質詢。","接下來有請王鴻薇委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-15","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯",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有請錦珍署長還有中選會麻煩署長 中選會好 委員好署長好 署長看一下我們就是這個就是闖進我們的校園的案件"},{"start":36.947,"end":55.945,"text":"我們署長你認為誰對誰錯,是否是我們的警衛非常盡責,還是說我們罷免的團體無法無天?對,根據我們,待會你先回答那對於效應的部分,我們警衛署有看法,就是尊重效應的自治"},{"start":57.287,"end":80.786,"text":"校園的自治因為我們警察進入校園也要經過他們的同意就是去處理一些相關的可能這些學生的這個事務也要透過學校的這個同意我們才能夠進入我們警察進入校園都是這樣子的所以對於校園的這個處置的一個方式那我們是尊重校園的這個自治"},{"start":82.332,"end":103.234,"text":"好所以說我們但是我們根據交易基準法第6條的規定交易因本中立原則你們覺得這個人號稱自己是博士生有博士生的知識的能力卻還做出這種就是違法的行為除了違法"},{"start":104.635,"end":125.26,"text":"憲法法之外還違反了社會秩序的維護法第73條規定與學校博物館、圖書館還有就是展覽會、運動會或其他公共場所口角紛爭的喧嘩之勢不停止"},{"start":126.737,"end":145.325,"text":"這樣子的人所以呢經過多吃幾排還有呢就是說勸導這是你們的語言但是呢就是就挑戰公權力已經是違法的行為如果你們覺得這樣子如何處理"},{"start":146.135,"end":174.587,"text":"好那這個學校當然第一時間如果警衛他會做處理那他處理沒辦法處理的時候他會像這個案子有報案報案之後我們到場之後就會做處置所以這個案第一個當然是尊重校園處理校園沒辦法處理要經過我們的這個對於他的可能處置治安難省要做我們行政協助或者是依法去處理我們情況會到場到場之後像這一件就有做在做"},{"start":176.188,"end":200.369,"text":"對這件的一個學生的訓斷都有做排除我們道場就有協助校方來處理有排除這件事情有排除這件事情就是沒有再進去因為他當時跟這個諸位警有發生衝突他如果說能夠處置不讓他進去那當然就離開嘛那當時在那邊有爭執沒辦法處理之後請警方到場警方到場之後有處置他就離開了"},{"start":202.077,"end":208.782,"text":"所以說你有沒有說要去傳喚他來說明為什麼說他已經這個我們的法已經通過了他還是這樣子的行為就無法無天了嘛對不對問題就是說當時的狀況是有沒有違法就是有沒有告訴告發嘛有沒有違法這個校方有沒有要做告訴告發有一些就是屬於告訴來論的這個部分有些還沒達到法律的要件"},{"start":228.075,"end":246.924,"text":"你說學校也是有報案 你們已經介入了所以說只是勸導他離開所以說你們沒有去查 或者是說要去換他來說明為什麼他是博士 他還是做這樣子我們拜託我們署長 我們不要緊啦 少子化"},{"start":251.22,"end":262.482,"text":"讓孩子好好去讀書啦這個是拜託你 拜託你也是要讓不要再這樣子去打擾我們的學校也不要去打擾學生"},{"start":263.719,"end":275.845,"text":"這個部分希望我們警政署這邊因為我們這個人他已經進入這樣子的學校所以已經違法我們的選罷法第52條的規定與第104條的規定違法進入學校就是宣導的意圖了所以這個選罷法在114年2月18號已經"},{"start":291.992,"end":310.081,"text":"修法通過了所以我們希望我們的警政署這邊就是要去處理啦希望你不要讓他就是就是討債我們的公權力所以不能就是已經進入如果是他沒有"},{"start":311.581,"end":327.693,"text":"讓學校那麼生氣不可能會報紙都登因為遷倒一次兩次這樣子的話他還在那邊才會上報不會學校這樣子就馬上去上報了這個才是說我們感覺是嚴重性"},{"start":330.051,"end":346.924,"text":"就希望我們的署長就是要去進一步的了解 好嗎好 謝謝接下來我要想要請教一下我們的NCC代理主委還有個資保護委員會的我們的訴發部因為我們就是根據個資保護法第20條"},{"start":359.215,"end":366.101,"text":"我們各自個人資料的利用於收集日必要範圍的範圍內非經過當事人同意不得為目標外的利用但是我們看到的請教一下"},{"start":377.392,"end":396.901,"text":"誰給這些罷免團體使用簡訊發各自的權限還有說中選會是否掌握誰取得了連署人的手機資料還有是說第三方的聯繫的外卸抒發部還有我們各自保護委員會的籌備處是否舉動調查這個有做嗎 我們的行政有沒有依法行政"},{"start":405.953,"end":430.635,"text":"公文報告NCC的之前方文內是針對三大電信業者這一塊我們都有要求他們來落實各自法尊那針對這個個案我們在5月5號5月9號都找他們來做行政調查那調查結果是這些資訊都不是三大業者他們的這個接受的簡訊的資訊都不是電信業者所提供電信業者也沒有提供其他的LBS服務以上"},{"start":432.213,"end":436.734,"text":"我們法務部長說不談個案啦 所以很多才會到我們這邊啦個案的話 只要查個案的話 就是沒辦法去查到水落石出啦所以說我們難道我們今天任何人都可以就是以政治的目的任意就是發簡信嗎所以這種就是罷免為民 就是已經洩露很多我們的個資了"},{"start":458.76,"end":474.133,"text":"所以我們要用這個個資保護法放在這裡,對我們人民真的沒有保障所以這樣子的,我們政府這樣子就是個案查也沒有說真正的是讓我們知道說怎麼樣去查出還有就是我們還是呢,就像我們之前我們的王一川委員說的"},{"start":483.962,"end":491.091,"text":"引發國家機器監控還是他用這樣子的方式用手機來對比掃描把這個資料給業者嗎"},{"start":498.067,"end":519.231,"text":"這個部分我們也要查清楚電信業者部分我們已經查過沒有這種情況但是因為這個整個發送簡訊的流程有涉及到好幾個不同的業別那不同業別有對應不同的主管機關來處理那NCC的職長範圍內的部分已經查過目前並沒有違反各自的情形"},{"start":520.6,"end":540.618,"text":"所以變成是罷免團體他們就是用抓的網路抓下來就是傳簡訊是這樣子的意思嗎所以沒有這樣情形他們治療從哪裡來的應該有源頭啦電信業者部分沒有洩露個資也沒有做目的外的利用"},{"start":542.338,"end":565.959,"text":"所以你們查得很清楚有資料這些如果是說這些要被莫名其妙收到簡訊的人再來去檢舉的話你們每一個都查不要說個案通盤查當事人接受人他可以來主張他的權益用個資法後面的一些29條等等來做一些主張他的權益"},{"start":566.624,"end":582.377,"text":"所以你們都有嚴查嘛但是我們沒有看到說你們可不可以提供說你們是有去查的因為任何的資料我們登錄我們登錄都有記錄的登錄資料都有記錄戶證他們登錄看資料都有記錄"},{"start":586.34,"end":601.205,"text":"所以說你們都沒有查出就說就查沒有沒有不是葉子這樣子用說的我們真的沒有辦法說我們人民有保障我們行政調查有記錄有記錄那如果委員需要我們可以跟委員報告好那這健診業者部分是沒有問題的"},{"start":602.085,"end":606.947,"text":"好 OK如果是這樣子那麼明確的話我們希望說要保障我們人民的權利啦因為我們個資保護法已經定在那裡了但是有很多我們的資料都會被人家去盜用或者是傳點信莫名其妙就會傳到很多的點信所以我們才會覺得說今天希望我們NCC這邊還有就是我們中選會我們法務部"},{"start":628.474,"end":653.464,"text":"各個警政署我們就是要徹查因為這些都是有認證身份還有記錄的還有我們希望不允許我們民進黨在用民主的名義掩護違法的行為還有人民的手機不是你們的政治的工具資料也不是你們動員的機器的燃料民進黨是否有聯心"},{"start":655.905,"end":679.559,"text":"就不該再當個資共犯因為我們希望真的徹底去查避免就是假罷免還有真真壓操控我們的人民的個資這樣我們真的是會感覺就是到處都要去預防人民這樣子的恐慌我們希望在這邊訴求各單位給明確的一個交代我們如果沒有"},{"start":685.215,"end":704.605,"text":"還在被人民再來去打電話來跟我們投訴的話我們就會徹底我們就要去查這個事情希望大家就是要保護我們人民的個資也是保護我們人民的安全可以嗎再麻煩你沒有問題好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":876,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（11時30分）謝謝主席，有請警政署長還有中選會。"],["主席：麻煩請署長、中選會。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：署長好。請署長看一下，這個闖進校園的案件，署長，你認為誰對誰錯？是我們的警衛非常盡責，還是我們的罷免團體無法無天？你先回答。"],["張署長榮興：報告委員，關於校園的部分，我們警政署的看法就是尊重校園的自治。"],["麥委員玉珍：尊重？"],["張署長榮興：校園的自治。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，尊重就……"],["張署長榮興：校園自治，因為我們警察進入校園也要經過他們的同意，就是我們要去處理一些與學生相關的事務時，也要透過學校的同意，我們才能夠進入，我們警察進入校園都是這樣子的，所以對於校園的處置方式，我們是尊重校園的自治。"],["麥委員玉珍：好。但是根據教育基本法第六條的規定，教育應本中立原則，你們覺得這個人號稱自己是博士生，有博士生的知識能力，卻還做出這種違法的行為，除了違反選罷法之外，還違反社會秩序維護法第七十三條的規定，於學校、博物館、圖書館還有展覽會、運動會或其他公共場所，口角紛爭或喧嘩滋事，不聽禁止者，經過多次舉牌還有勸導，挑戰公權力，已經是違法的行為，如果這樣，你們覺得如何處理？"],["張署長榮興：好。學校當然第一時間如果有警衛，他會做處理，那他沒辦法處理的時候，像這個案是有報案，報案之後我們到場就會做處置。所以這個案，第一個當然是尊重校園自治由校園處理，校園沒辦法處理或是對於他的處置窒礙難行，需要我們做行政協助或是依法去處理，我們警方會到場，到場之後，像這一件就有對這個學生的宣傳車做排除，我們到場就有協助校方來處理，有排除這件事情。"],["麥委員玉珍：有排除這件事情？"],["張署長榮興：有排除，就是當事人沒有再進去，因為他當時跟駐衛警有發生衝突，如果校方能夠處置不讓他進去，他當然就離開，當時在那邊有爭執，沒辦法處理之後請警方到場，警方到場之後有處置，他就離開了。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以，你有沒有要傳喚他來說明，為什麼我們的法已經通過了，他還是做這樣的行為？就無法無天了嘛，對不對？"],["張署長榮興：問題就是當時的狀況有沒有違法，就是有沒有告訴、告發嘛，有沒有違法？校方有沒有要提出告訴、告發，有一些是屬於告訴乃論的部分，有些還沒達到法律的要件……"],["麥委員玉珍：剛才你說學校也有報案，你們已經介入了，所以只是勸導他離開……"],["張署長榮興：對，因為他……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你們沒有去查，或是要去傳喚他來說明，為什麼他是博士，他還是做這樣的事。拜託我們的署長，現在少子化，讓孩子好好去讀書，這個要拜託你，拜託你不要再讓其他人這樣去打擾我們的學校，也不要去打擾學生，這個部分希望我們警政署這邊協助，因為這個人已經進入學校，所以已經違反選罷法第五十二條的規定與第一百零四條的規定，違法進入學校宣導的意圖，選罷法在114年2月18號已經修法通過了，所以我們希望警政署要處理，不要讓他挑戰我們的公權力，他已經進入學校，如果他沒有讓學校那麼生氣，報紙不可能會刊登，因為勸導一次、兩次，他還在那邊，所以才會上報，學校不會馬上要上報，所以我們感覺到它的嚴重性，希望署長要進一步了解，好嗎？"],["張署長榮興：好，謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：接下來我想請教一下NCC代理主委，還有個資保護委員會、數發部。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：根據個資保護法第二十條，對於個人資料的利用，於蒐集之特定目的必要範圍內為之，非經當事人同意，不得為目的外之利用。請教一下，誰給這些罷免團體使用簡訊發個資的權限？中選會是否掌握誰取得了連署人的手機資料？第三方的聯繫資料外洩，數發部還有個資保護委員會籌備處是否主動調查？這個有做嗎？我們有沒有依法行政？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，NCC的職權範圍內是針對三大電信業者這一塊，我們都有要求他們落實個資法遵，針對這個個案，我們在5月5號、5月9號都有找他們來做行政調查，調查結果是他們接受簡訊的這些資訊都不是電信業者所提供，電信業者也沒有提供其他的LBS服務，以上。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們法務部長說不談個案，所以很多案子才會到我們這邊，只有查個案的話，就是沒辦法查到水落石出，難道我們今天任何人都可以以政治的目的任意發簡訊嗎？這種以罷免為名已經洩漏我們很多個資了，個資保護法只是放在這裡而已，對我們人民真的沒有保障，所以我們政府就是個案去查，也沒有真正讓我們知道是怎麼樣去查出來，就像之前我們王義川委員說的，引發國家機器監控，還是用手機來對比、掃描，把這個資料給業者嗎？這個部分我們也要查清楚。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：關於這部分，我們已經查過電信業者的部分了，沒有這種情況，但是因為整個發送簡訊的流程有涉及到好幾個不同的業別，不同的業別有對應不同的主管機關來處理，NCC職掌範圍內的部分已經查過，目前並沒有違反個資的情形。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以變成罷免團體他們就是從網路抓資訊下來傳簡訊，是這樣的意思嗎？如果沒有這樣的情形，那他們的資料是從哪裡來的？應該有源頭吧！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我是說電信業者的部分沒有洩漏個資，也沒有做目的外的利用。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你們查得很清楚，有資料？這些……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就是電信業者的部分……"],["麥委員玉珍：如果這些莫名其妙收到簡訊的人去檢舉的話，你們每一個都查，不要說個案，通盤查，是嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就是當事人、接受人他可以來主張他的權益，用個資法第二十九條等等來主張他的權益。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你們都有嚴查嘛，但是我們沒有看到，你們可不可以提供資料讓我們知道你們是有去查的，因為任何資料我們登錄都有紀錄，戶政他們登錄看資料都有紀錄，所以你們都沒有查出……就是說查的結果是沒有、沒有，不是業者，這樣用講的，真的沒有辦法讓我們人民有保障。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們有紀錄，如果委員有需要，我們可以跟委員報告。"],["麥委員玉珍：好。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就電信業者的部分是沒有問題的。"],["麥委員玉珍：好、OK，如果是那麼明確的話，我們希望要保障我們人民的權利，因為個資保護法已經訂在那裡了，但是我們很多資料都會被人家盜用，或是莫名其妙就收到很多簡訊，所以我們才會希望NCC、中選會、法務部、警政署要徹查，因為這些都是有驗證身分，還有紀錄的。","此外，我們不允許民進黨再用民主的名義掩護違法的行為，還有人民的手機不是你們的政治工具，資料也不是你們動員機器的燃料，民進黨如果有良心，就不該再當個資共犯，因為我們希望真的能夠徹底去查，避免假罷免真操控我們人民的個資，這樣我們真的會感覺到處都要預防，人民會有這樣的恐慌。我們在這邊的訴求是，各單位給一個明確的交代，如果還有人民再打電話來跟我們投訴的話，我們就要去查這個事情，希望大家要保護我們人民的個資，也是保護我們人民的安全，可以嗎？再麻煩你。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有問題。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，下一位我們請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","張啓楷","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","羅智強","王鴻薇","葉元之","林倩綺"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、內\n政部警政署署長、中央選舉委員會、數位發展部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有\n限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「民眾反應收到罷免連署簡訊，顯非商業廣告目的利用，質疑個資\n洩漏而侵害人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145202_00002"}}},{"id":"161554","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161554","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f007c5cee1630ddec428de2cce2b28366a0be1aa9793fcacdd8053b69fbe3a03365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:30:19 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谢谢主席 我请是不是请陈部长陈部长"},{"start":16.761,"end":45.897,"text":"部長 那個 我第一個問題請教你就是台日農業交流 應該是農漁業交流是台日 那這個我們4月28號我們住宿代表宿農業組正式成立對我們在其他住館這個住宿有沒有農業組的相關的這個編制在美國有在歐盟 歐盟有對 總共只有三個住宿館處最主要就是我們的外銷最主要跟農業多才民外銷有關的歐盟是派出一位 然後"},{"start":46.918,"end":54.888,"text":"這個北美一位對不對兩位那歐盟一位歐盟也是兩位然後日本也是兩位"},{"start":56.336,"end":83.171,"text":"這個我覺得農業跟經濟一樣重要所以我們經濟組在主要管理處都有經濟組的同仁跟推廣或者協助農業的交流那我們現在對美國的關稅政策對農業當然有很多影響我們必須分散市場分散市場你要拓展我們出口市場所以出口多元化很重要那你東西也要考慮設立"},{"start":85.341,"end":105.653,"text":"我們東協目前在印尼的部分有派我們的農業部的同仁在那邊去做協助然後最主要的外銷都是由國際私形成相關的策略以後因為你有這個派出人員你會制定工作目標你針對工作實現情形你們做管轄"},{"start":107.014,"end":131.106,"text":"所以就像經濟組一樣不管是農業組同仁或經濟組同仁他也是歸經濟委員會來做監督考核所以我覺得這部分台日當然已經早就該成立了那你今天上個月成立那南韓跟台日的農業跟台韓的農業我覺得台日農業交流是比台農業交流好很多為什麼韓國南韓沒辦法做"},{"start":133.973,"end":157.146,"text":"南韓我應該在去年吧去年年底的時候我有去過一次南韓那邊的這些寵物的飼料本身還有一些相關的我們的漁產品也有相關的外銷所以我們要看它的貿易量到某個程度的時候是不是值得我農業產品南韓是第幾大的出口市場南韓應該第幾"},{"start":159.484,"end":183.97,"text":"應該是排行十以後的啦港換地緣經濟啊日本喜歡農漁產品出口第三大市場對不對那這個但是這樣還不夠是在我國日本對台這個進口的57%左右所以不只台日的這個農業交流有必要深化廣化"},{"start":185.45,"end":190.778,"text":"那另外 台南之間 我覺得也應該要加把勁你要擬定對策啊"},{"start":192.386,"end":214.423,"text":"這個部長謝謝委員我想我們會來啟動正式的一個評估啦包括我們未來可能要去銷到韓國的農產品然後用什麼樣的方式跟外館那邊有沒有什麼樣的方式去派駐人員因為這個人員大概都是從我們限職人員去調的是啦你要針對主要的國家韓國啦東協你說印尼你就應該在那邊設個農業組是我想人員不是問題專業不是問題但你有編制你就會有成果對"},{"start":222.069,"end":238.762,"text":"另外我針對高雄石斑魚對內出口我們組成一個拓銷小組鼓勵各位龍虎班可以消往日本那我希望以南部為主的東高雄、台南、屏東石斑魚的產區對日本的出口應該要擴大"},{"start":242.145,"end":261.579,"text":"所以通路很重要 通路不合作 日本主要的商社不管是以縣為主 以區域為主 應該要請我們諸位代表處的各個分處福岡 福岡辦事處 大阪 甚至北海道 雜荒 應該要給他們相關的責任"},{"start":264.901,"end":289.517,"text":"去協助我們這個龍虎班、石班能夠在當地透過通路來打開我們的這個外銷我跟委員報告因為這次去年去的時候我特別針對那個石班類的部分他們評估就是在關東地區其實他的機會會比關西地區還多然後現在透過我們的西湖鐵道公司"},{"start":290.277,"end":301.196,"text":"為什麼關東現在是關係為主嘛飲食習慣最主要是飲食習慣對 我們現在是嚮往關係嘛對 那關東是更大的一個機會更能夠接受嘛對我們太太是說都沒差"},{"start":303.635,"end":331.17,"text":"日本人不管是關西 都要吃酒半夜所以我想我們會有一整套的一個措施特別是針對剛才您講的通路是非常重要的然後現在我們在西鐵鐵道公司這些中餐的部分 已經導入了署長很專業 署長這個海洋事務專家我希望說半年之內有具體的成果你把這個量 把這個量"},{"start":332.751,"end":347.607,"text":"能夠擴大量也放大然後點也能夠遍及到全日本是 更委員更委員報告就是目前在十八年蘇日裡面價錢還是稍微有一點就是有點高那這一點"},{"start":348.208,"end":368.162,"text":"那署裡面跟在部長的指導之下我們其實現在對於輸往日本的部分這種外銷獎勵的部分我們現在都會持續來推動那剛剛委員提到說日本各縣的這些的商社我想我們也都會來努力是最後一個問題就是你們的農保虧損的狀況"},{"start":370.343,"end":391.814,"text":"農保啊我們這個有預算凍結是針對農保部分我希望農保這個未來改善有沒有具體的目標啊現在我們的虧損大概是1800多億那最主要是農保的保費有沒有保費是比較低嘛那你一年之內你要達到多少目標"},{"start":392.754,"end":417.743,"text":"我們每一年 我把詳細的這邊可以請我們去年市長報告委員 我們農保每年虧損大概50億上下那現在就是因為整個農保的人數越來越降低所以我這個虧損會縮短那之所以現在來了50億的這樣的一個水準是因為我們之前調高了農保的商帳幾戶"},{"start":419.083,"end":436.385,"text":"現在農保的支出最主要都是在上漲幾乎大概90到95%之間所以未來農保的人數下降之後這一部分的虧損會減少那我們也積極在做相關的查查的工作需要能夠讓農保制度健全"},{"start":437.78,"end":457.905,"text":"財政平衡很重要 對農民的照顧也很重要所以這兩個目標都要兼顧另外這個農業保險你們覆蓋率我了解目前大概53點多對 農業保險你們有沒有具體的目標比如說 我覺得多少目標是合理的是你們預期達成的"},{"start":460.306,"end":488.452,"text":"我跟委員報告我之前跟我們的農經署在討論過去充量不看品質那每一張保單可能有人保但是保的不多我現在希望說回過頭來去檢討我們的保單的品質希望每一張保單有很多人保這樣的話保險的理賠也不會那麼高險種很重要對然後對重要的農產品這個很重要對所以農業受極端氣候影響的"},{"start":489.452,"end":510.064,"text":"受這個市場調節影響所以風險比較高的這些農業產品我覺得這個覆蓋率一定要最高對 這個覆蓋率最高就是每一張保單大部分的品項都已經納入了天然摘有關的但是現在就是每一張保單它就保單人數這不簡單這幾年之內農業保險覆蓋率可以提升到五成以上這個也算不簡單"},{"start":511.044,"end":519.14,"text":"那我希望說針對主要的這個重要的農運產品它的覆蓋率應該會更高啦好會 我們會來努力好 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝各位同仁 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我想謝謝委員的一個提醒就是其實寵物業的評鑑是一個非常重要的關鍵那可以去讓這個整個寵物業沒有 它層次不齊啦 對然後這個部分其實我們每一年都有評鑑但是我覺得那個強度跟那個標準其實可以定得更嚴謹讓我們的寵物產業能夠繼續往前提升所以部長同意朝這個方向嗎我們一定會做要多久時間可以來做一些強化的機制出來"},{"start":76.605,"end":84.534,"text":"這個部分其實他並不涉修法這個評鑑的部分我想我們會立即我會後就會多久的時間多久"},{"start":85.632,"end":107.532,"text":"一個月之內 我們新的一個評鑑的一個制度我希望不要劣幣足良幣 同時也能夠讓整個跟建立一個好像的形勢跟我也報告 是不是可以要六月底因為六月底我們針對那個飼養的有沒有 飼養的那個部分一起我們一起提出來 好 好 OK另外是大家也很提到了所謂的凍檢員的部分這個部長支持這樣的方向嗎"},{"start":108.112,"end":133.834,"text":"對,我們在這次的修法也把它放進去就是去加強動物檢查人員的一個父權的關係就是他在緊急的情況之下可以進到私領域去但是他不會任意的進去啦這個部分我想我們會可以確保這些寵物、動物的相關的一些權益動物的保護是非常重要的對,這個也涉及到台灣整體的形象啦如果常有一些虐待的一些情況的話這個對台灣的影響是不足的"},{"start":136.676,"end":162.441,"text":"那再來市主的一些良善的責任這個部分包括有時候常會遇到很多棄養啦甚至有時候這個部分怎麼樣來做更多的強化這次在修法裡面我們有納入喔特別是這些棄養過去在棄養的定義並不明確然後這次在修法裡面我們把棄養的定義做得很明確你必須經過到動物收容裡面去做登記以後才能去處理"},{"start":163.681,"end":184.869,"text":"不能隨意你如果沒有到動物的收容所去做登記去做一些認養的關係的時候那就視為棄養我也希望這一塊要把它更確立起來因為每一個你要飼養其實都是一個責任都是一個生命都是一個責任那你不能夠要的時候養但是不要說用整個這樣丟棄甚至於造成很多問題像"},{"start":187.19,"end":211.686,"text":"動輒路邊的一些 流浪狗 流浪貓甚至連綠烈蜥都是所以這個會造成很多的一些問題這應該要更加的去強化跟重視對 施主的責任我想我們在這次種法法修法也變成一個重點好 那另外其實很多的登記跟絕育的管理這也很重要既然就是你要飼養應該有更多的登記的機制讓大家知道到底在哪邊然後牠的整個狀況是怎樣這也是確保這些牠們的權益然後這些寵物這些動物們的權益"},{"start":216.269,"end":242.506,"text":"對 謝謝委員因為關心這個寵物登記因為只有登記落實的時候才能夠去掌握這些犬隻的這些數量也才能夠根據這個去落實我們的事主責任所以這個部分是最基本要做的我想我們在這一次的修法裡面也會納進來然後我們現在已經在做了像貓的飼養貓的那個登記我們用強制的明年1月1號開始明年1月1號開始來強制登記"},{"start":244.127,"end":256.039,"text":"好 那另外還有很多的是為繁殖買賣的啦齁這個甚至於很多是是非缺乏一些規範的這個恐怕未來也要持續啦那個齁不要讓這些"},{"start":258.823,"end":285.908,"text":"這個繁殖買賣甚至於非法的一些不斷的擴大因為這個都會影響到整個這個也是委員一直關心的這個的前提就是說我要落實我們的事主的分級的管理這個也是委員一直常說的你在分級管理的時候針對這些禁止飼養的或是必須特殊情況飼養的部分我們有規範的時候我們才能夠回頭要求我們的這些繁殖場做更有效的一個管理所以這個也會把它進數碼建立起來這個也會在裡面我覺得這個都"},{"start":287.808,"end":303.987,"text":"都是那個那再來我們也常看到很多啦齁一些社群平台有很多虐待動物的資訊的發布啦齁這個很傷害台灣的形象也很傷害整個這個部分有沒有什麼樣一些機制來做處理這個部分在現在目前的機制就可以在做了齁就是我們"},{"start":305.989,"end":328.407,"text":"隨時針對我們的這些網站的這些販賣動物的訊息或是有任何的有可能產生虐待動物的情況的之下我們都會去報案像前幾天我們針對有一些非法的我們也去報案我在上禮拜還是有在看到類似像這樣的影片在傳對好不好那但是你們去要求的時候他下架同時做開罰這個有做得到嗎"},{"start":330.68,"end":359.278,"text":"我想我們現在跟網路的經營業者有一個比較好的默契就是說所以一旦有這些的影片出來的時候你們要求他下架現在目前他們都大部分都能夠配合啦經過說明以後都能夠配合那如果適度必須要開罰的時候我想開罰也要開罰因為這個開罰才會涉及到相關的公學例的行使再來是寵物的食品安全也很重要啦它會影響到寵物的整個安全"},{"start":360.339,"end":378.24,"text":"那抱怨了嗎我上次跟在委員會報告就是我們會在五月底抱怨然後現在在內部已經審查完成了然後在這個禮拜四這個禮拜四經過我們的部裡面的主管匯報通過以後我們就送院了我們希望讓這些寵物他們的食品有更好的一些規範"},{"start":379.06,"end":405.333,"text":"也更安全的食品這個能夠把這件事情做得更好現在寵物很多人視為也形容像他們的家人一樣那你有更清楚的食品規範的時候才能夠讓他們是更健康更快樂的一個生活這個也是委員一直在關心的我們會從生產端然後料園這邊要確保它的料園的安全性對寵物是安全的還有包括它的販賣業者的管理都全部在寵物食品專章裡面去處理"},{"start":406.494,"end":430.325,"text":"最後一個問一下現在網路上還是有在販售一些活體的動物跟寵物現在上很多一些網站還是買得到這個部分有要追究這些平台的責任嗎這個齁如果你在網路上販售這樣子的一個寵物的話你必須要有許可證你必須在網路上面要登記你的許可證字號如果沒有的話就是非法"},{"start":430.825,"end":452.259,"text":"那非法的話第一個我們會要求下架第二個部分我們會針對它的一個網路的來源刊登的來源去做處罰部長現在還有啦我希望技術去要求下架同時今天技術來做開罰好不好唯有開罰才能夠嚇阻這樣的行為的發生在網路上面非法的販售活體的寵物是大家無法忍受的好謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":687,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時22分）謝謝召委。請陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，辛苦了。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：針對預算解凍，我沒有特別的問題，但我想要關心一下，包括動保法及一些寵物的相關問題。現在越來越多人都有養寵物、毛小孩，我認為我們對於這些要建立更完整的規範。對於寵物業者的評鑑管理機制要做更多的加強，納入到整個體制內，我想問一下，部長支持嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的提醒。寵物業的評鑑是一個非常重要的關鍵，可以讓整個寵物業……"],["賴委員瑞隆：不要讓它參差不齊，不要劣幣逐良幣。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個部分我們每一年都有評鑑，但是我覺得強度跟標準可以訂得更嚴謹，讓寵物產業能夠繼續往上提升。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以部長同意朝這個方向嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：我們一定會做。"],["賴委員瑞隆：多久時間可以做出一些強化的機制？"],["陳部長駿季：評鑑的部分並不涉修法，所以我們會立即，我會後就會請……"],["賴委員瑞隆：多久時間？"],["陳部長駿季：一個月之內……"],["賴委員瑞隆：一個月內完成，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：新的評鑑制度。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望不要劣幣逐良幣，同時也能夠建立更完善的機制。"],["陳部長駿季：是不是可以到6月底？6月底我們會針對飼養的部分一起提出來，好不好？"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，6月底前提出來，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：OK。另外，大家也提到了所謂的動檢員，部長支持這樣的方向嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們在這次的修法也把它放進去，加強動物檢查人員的賦權，就是他在緊急的情況之下可以進到私領域，但是他不會任意進去。我想我們會朝這個部分……"],["賴委員瑞隆：可以確保這些寵物、動物的權益。"],["陳部長駿季：是，動物的保護是非常重要的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，這個也涉及臺灣整體的形象。如果常常有一些虐待的情況，對於臺灣的形象是負面的。"],["陳部長駿季：能夠即時的遏阻。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來是飼主良善的責任，包括常會遇到很多棄養，這個部分怎麼樣來做更多的強化？"],["陳部長駿季：這次修法我們有納入，特別是過去棄養的定義並不明確，我們在這次修法把棄養的定義做得很明確，必須到動物收容所登記以後才能去處理，不能隨意。如果沒有到動物收容所去登記或處理認養關係，就視為棄養。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我也希望要把這一塊更確立起來。"],["陳部長駿季：會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為每一個你要飼養的，其實都是一個責任。它都是一個生命，都是一個責任，你不能夠要的時候養，但是不要的時候就這樣丟棄，甚至造成很多問題。路邊的一些流浪狗、流浪貓，甚至連綠鬣蜥都是，都會造成很多的問題，所以應該要更加強化跟重視。"],["陳部長駿季：對，飼主的責任在這次動保法修法也變成一個重點。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外，其實很多的登記跟絕育的管理也很重要，既然你要飼養，應該有更多的登記機制，讓大家知道到底在哪邊、整個狀況是怎樣，這也是確保這些寵物、動物們的權益。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員關心寵物登記，因為只有登記落實的時候，才能夠去掌握這些犬隻的數量，也才能夠根據這個去落實飼主責任，這個部分是最基本要做的，我想在這次的修法裡面……"],["賴委員瑞隆：也會納進來？"],["陳部長駿季：也會納進來。我們現在已經在做的，像貓的飼養我們用強制登記，明年1月1號開始。"],["賴委員瑞隆：明年1月1號開始來強制登記？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外，還有很多是繁殖買賣的，甚至很多是缺乏一些規範的，恐怕未來也要持續來處理，不要讓這些繁殖買賣，甚至於非法的一些狀況不斷地擴大，這個都會影響到整個……"],["陳部長駿季：這個也是委員一直關心的，前提就是要落實飼主的分級管理，這也是委員常說的，在分級管理的時候，針對這些禁止飼養的或是必須特殊情況飼養的部分，當我們有規範的時候，我們才能夠回頭要求繁殖場做更有效的管理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以也會儘速把這個建立起來？"],["陳部長駿季：這個也會在裡面。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我覺得這個都是問題。再來，我們也常在社群平臺看到有很多虐待動物的資訊被發布，也很傷害臺灣的形象，這個部分有沒有什麼樣的機制來處理？"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分以目前的機制就可以做了，我們隨時針對網站販賣動物的訊息，或是有任何可能產生虐待動物的情況，我們都會去報案，像前幾天我們也針對一些非法的狀況去報案。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我上禮拜還是有看到類似這樣的影片在傳播，好不好？但是你們要求他下架，同時開罰，這個做得到嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在跟網站、網路的經營業者有一個比較好的默契，就是說跟……"],["賴委員瑞隆：一旦有這些影片出來的時候，你們要求他下架，沒問題嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：用下架的方式，目前他們大部分都能夠配合，經過說明以後都能夠配合。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果必須開罰的時候，該有的開罰也要開罰喔！"],["陳部長駿季：必要開罰，我們就會來處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為有開罰才會涉及公權力的行使。再來，寵物的食品安全也很重要，它會影響到寵物的安全，這個報院了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我上次在委員會也報告了，我們會在5月底報院，現在在內部已經審查完成，在這個禮拜四經過部裡面的主管會報通過以後，我們就送院。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們希望讓寵物食品有更好的規範，也有更安全的食品，能夠把這件事情做得更好，現在很多人視寵物為他們的家人一樣，你有更清楚的食品規範，才能夠讓牠們更健康、更快樂的生活。"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個也是委員一直在關心的，我們會從生產端、料園，要確保料園的安全性對寵物是安全的，包括對販賣業者的管理，全部都在寵物食品專章裡面去處理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：最後一個，現在網路上還是有在販售一些活體的動物跟寵物，事實上，你現在上一些網站還是買得到，這個部分有要追究平臺的責任嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：如果要在網路上販售寵物，必須在網路上面登記許可證字號，如果沒有的話，就是非法，那非法的話，第一個，我們會要求下架；第二個部分，我們會針對其網路刊登的來源去處罰。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，現在還有啦！我希望儘速要求其下架，同時間儘速來開罰，好不好？唯有開罰才能夠嚇阻這樣行為的發生。"],["陳部長駿季：是，瞭解。"],["賴委員瑞隆：在網路上面非法販售活體寵物是大家無法忍受的，謝謝部長，辛苦了！"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","下一位請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-13","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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有請部長"},{"start":11.514,"end":35.683,"text":"部長好部長今天有很多委員都很關心林昶佐到底有沒有辦法勝任芬蘭大使之士其實我們所知道的林昶佐當然是從政之前的閃靈樂團再來他從政之後因為我曾經跟他當過同事也曾經觀察過他其實我覺得他對於人權方面他一直都是非常的關心"},{"start":36.303,"end":52.88,"text":"那當然他兩屆都在外交國防委員會我們也知道說他對這個國際事務的這個關心好那除了談到林昶佐之外當然就是談到這個芬蘭喔芬蘭這個國家過去我曾經造訪過也是非常重視人權的一個國家"},{"start":53.42,"end":64.653,"text":"那他的這個社會福利政策呢也是非常的完善那大家可能比較不太清楚就是說像這個芬蘭除了這些之外呢其實他的這個重金屬樂團的這個團數是全球"},{"start":69.638,"end":95.714,"text":"居守的我曾經看過報導就是說在10萬人裡面其實他們會有70個重金屬的樂團所以不管是說芬蘭目前他所重視的議題其實跟林昶佐其實是非常的match那再來還有就是說我覺得林昶佐用他的音樂專長去做這個外交工作他跟芬蘭其實有共同的語言"},{"start":96.474,"end":108.383,"text":"有何不可 本身是認為有何不可這是我自己的一個想法啦那當然部長剛剛也提了很多那當然我在媒體上也看到就是說部長其實你有在說為什麼會說希望是林昶佐出任芬蘭大使之事這大概都有跟這個國人說得非常的清楚"},{"start":118.311,"end":133.659,"text":"那再來的話呢 當然就是今天很重要的這個議題就是我們預算案的這個解凍那其實每一項的這個解凍都是非常的重要都是關係到這個外交的這個推動那其中呢 被凍結了50%的這個業務費"},{"start":138.061,"end":156.199,"text":"我想大家會很擔心就是說今天有沒有辦法順利來做解凍所以本席想請部長在這裡很明確的告知國人就是說如果這個業務費今天沒有辦法順利解凍的話我們到底會面臨哪一些困境尤其是對這個外交工作請問部長是"},{"start":158.3,"end":182.272,"text":"報告委員 因為凍結業務會一半那我們想說至少半年 下半年可是因為他必須要執行就是30%以上才能夠來申請結論現在這個時間是五月中當然是已經很急迫 因為有些事情是需要規劃"},{"start":183.633,"end":199.735,"text":"包括一些可能我們外館的業務設施那處於不確定性高的時候是沒有辦法去推展所以我們是懇求這個大院還有委員會能夠盡快的能夠讓通過好能夠啟動一些準備工作"},{"start":201.697,"end":228.055,"text":"業務當然也包括駐外館很多的這些舉辦的活動以外一些僱員因為外館其實也借助很多當地的人來幫助我們那這些都是會是影響那其他一般性我們國人出國涉及到的一些不管是急難救助或是相關的這些國際交流邀訪也都會受到影響"},{"start":228.735,"end":253.575,"text":"是像目前我們所看到的就是說像部長所提的可能我們駐外管的這個業務的運作呢可能會受到很大的這個影響嘛那再來還有一點就是要提到就是WTOWTO的話是我們唯一一個加入這個經貿組織唯一的一個組織嘛那我們所了解就是說像年初的時候我們必須要繳交一個326萬的美金的這個匯費這部分已經繳交了是不是"},{"start":258.198,"end":276.931,"text":"是 因為他有stay line 我們就用另外先電資啦所以用電資的方式來處理那可是WTO不單單只是繳會費而已啊這部分能不能如果說今天這個沒有辦法順利解凍這個WTO後續的推動會哪一部分的影響嗎"},{"start":277.947,"end":290.182,"text":"因為我們為了繳費費就排擠了其他的比如交流活動或者是有一些參與會議的預算只是為了繳費那其他的活動就所以這部分的話我們是從其他的地方做顛覆我們只能夠從這一個項目"},{"start":292.438,"end":296.44,"text":"所以為了繳費會當然會其他放在這個科目裡面的那我們應該還會有一些部長會議啊等等之類的這個會影響都會影響都沒有辦法去參與了嗎它有排擠效果會有排擠效果所以這邊的話所以部長就是還要懇求朝野都一起來支持我們這個業務費的通過嘛不然的話會受到很大的影響那再來我們也要繳的費會我們當然希望我們業務也能夠推動是"},{"start":317.87,"end":332.827,"text":"那再來還有我們現在也要積極的就是推動加入這個CPTPP如果說這個業務費沒有解凍的話是不是這個也是受到很大的影響對 這在同一個項目下當然會互相會有這個使用上對於我們國際組織的這個參與呢其實是會受阻的嘛"},{"start":336.09,"end":363.259,"text":"那之前我有曾經呢聽一位我們的外交官說我們都曉得說美國服務員非常的遼闊有時候真的是要飛到另外一地另外一地是進行這個外交工作的時候其實或是要開會其實有時候要坐國內的飛機可是我有聽過外交官就有提到就是說為了省省這個交通費所以他們有時候一大早就開車自己開車然後呢去開會部長你知道這件事情嗎"},{"start":364.249,"end":384.768,"text":"有 都有聽聞那其實像我跟委員報告我們外交部的預算只佔我們現在中央政府總預算不到1%而且逐年遞減這是一個我是覺得我們必須因為現在外交隨著除了我們很多國家要跟我們交往以外中國在國際上的影響力越來越大"},{"start":385.569,"end":410.095,"text":"所以其實如果是我們跟中國在國際上的角力其實我們是壓力越來越大當然我們去尋求總和外交包括理念相近國家的支持不過我也是要懇求就除了今年的預算能夠及早的解凍以外其實我們也可能要重新去思考我們向外交扮演一個什麼樣的角色那需要多少預算不然的話以目前來講是確實捉襟見肘"},{"start":412.256,"end":433.143,"text":"那我們外交的人員都很專業都經過特考還有這些怎麼讓他們充分的發揮這個我想也利用這個機會我們也會針對新年度的預算能夠反映我們現在的政策目標這也敬請這個委員的支持"},{"start":433.963,"end":459.641,"text":"對啦 我一直在想說這些預算呢都是我們推動這個國會外交對要發生其實很重要的一些經費喔所以我在想說待會可能我們就需要來處理這個預算的部分啦所以也就 欸我們只好點頭所以呢也希望就是朝野一起來支持因為最近也常常聽到一些外交工作受阻然後說實在外交人員真的是非常的這個辛苦啦所以希望大家來支持好 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有沒有辦男不辦女人民眼睛是血亮的我剛剛講得過清楚了大家看"},{"start":176.255,"end":189.723,"text":"明天就是賴總統91週年了也是你當法務部長一年了然後講不光彩賴總統的滿意度今天聯合報最新的剛剛公佈的不滿意度高達53%這個是我們從1997年明顯總統以來從李登輝開始五年來總統民調最低的前幾天TPPS的民調也很嚴重"},{"start":207.025,"end":220.555,"text":"不滿意的不滿意度啊比聯合報做得還高55%耶今天我特別要問的大家知道嗎TPS做的民調啊人民最不滿的就是司法改革崩盤博定你先休息一下我先請教司法院的司法院長久也是受到尊敬的啊可是最近這一兩年沒有發現整個那個每次那個民調裡面"},{"start":238.197,"end":248.105,"text":"司法體系從司法減掉受到人民很多的質疑父母你看看不滿意度高達58%滿意的人才30會不會覺得很不民主臉上無光你們有沒有做一些檢討"},{"start":261.254,"end":271.852,"text":"你之前檢討的是中文字嘛 對不對 那個案對中方那個案子嘛 對不對其實最近案子真的還不少我現在TBS公佈完已經兩三天了嘛司法院內部應該沒有再檢討嗎"},{"start":275.536,"end":288.803,"text":"報告委員其實我們司法同仁大部分司法同仁都非常認真敬業這幾年負擔非常大因為案件成長非常多我們的同仁也必須要鼓勵士氣我想這個民調"},{"start":291.984,"end":315.655,"text":"因為這個原因沒有分析嘛就是說他很有可能是因為近期己見就是那個被判有罪那個被告潛逃啊這個部分因為民眾會有那個近期印象那我想這部分我們司法院確實就如之前所說的我們確實是應該要那個深圳檢討對我們希望深圳檢討然後找出一些答案做一些改革好不好你先來我請我請這部長是複密說他們司法院有深圳在檢討發不播有做了一些檢討嗎"},{"start":322.25,"end":338.171,"text":"我們希望我們都相信檢查債辦案都是依法公正安全按照證據來認定犯罪事實那回應民眾的一個期待那我想這個整個一個民調都是任何的民調我們都是會做一個"},{"start":339.292,"end":345.695,"text":"我們現在嚴重的就是最近的時候不是好像今天在看TBS的最近的時候有做的民調大家對檢調都搖頭啦你看政治 但是民主社會啊你看民進黨去辦那個下鄉叫什麼 人民是頭家 人民當家頭家已經死了"},{"start":358.083,"end":370.652,"text":"不是跟TVBS 你看TVBS不滿意五成八 滿意的才三十因為我不曉得我們那個委員是哪個案件我們不應該辦啦 因為我也不曉得啦那我覺得 你說一個罷免 罷免的連署大家就害怕了 你還不知道要對一個案來來來"},{"start":377.117,"end":392.985,"text":"你說案子可多你要問我哪一個案子你光是柯文哲最近那個我們不要再談個案你不談個案你問我哪一個案子對啊案子可多咧剛剛負面都還知道說有中文字這個案子人家也知道某些重大案子要去反省對不對"},{"start":393.985,"end":410.644,"text":"阿你這個連署問題你讓人家覺得說你是辦案不案例那完全沒有公正公平選擇性辦案阿你自己都不檢討 完全不能割案的話就是按照證據來辦案喔那我們講辦案本來就是就是完全回復到證據來做一個認定嘛我們現在是民主社會啦"},{"start":412.506,"end":429.987,"text":"你的每一分的你的領的錢都是民脂民膏第二個我剛才說的民進黨去辦活動 他們也是說人民是老闆啊那你從每次的民調 老闆都跟你說了喔不滿意度已經那麼高了而且老實講你們是賴清德十一項重大的施政裡面最慘的耶"},{"start":434.21,"end":443.432,"text":"十一項裡面最慘的耶今天不是也有個民調嗎?五成八的民眾認為政治利益介入的減掉介入的司法"},{"start":444.605,"end":468.445,"text":"我來講不是一個民調 這個我不同意啦這個什麼正在介入司法我不同意我也希望就是說部分任何的黨派對司法都要給司法一個辦案的純正空間我也不希望說在哪個地方去對司法做一個施壓用群眾的力量去做一個施壓那我想各界的聲音我們都會仔細去聽法定 你是法母堡的大家長啦"},{"start":469.426,"end":488.969,"text":"你有責任讓法務體系的檢調每個人走出去都是有方的啦現在就是討厭了嘛結果你還一直在這邊強辯你的責任是什麼第一個你是頭是到家長啊對不對老講總統為什麼任命你當法務部長我相信不是來當打手或者讓人民不信任你對不對檢察官一個純淨的一個檢調純淨的辦案空間純淨的辦案空間這個請委員能夠支持部長"},{"start":497.745,"end":519.025,"text":"你接這個華為部長職要做什麼事情?第一個你一定要有好的歷史定位嘛對不對?你對過去三年,可能後來要做三年四年,可以做八年好不好?你留下來這段時間的58%的不滿意那你要去改啊,而且你是大家長啊你要讓你下面的人可以服氣啊"},{"start":521.442,"end":531.45,"text":"好來 我們來看某些案子最近啊 為什麼人民那麼不滿剛才說過 史幻林逼到中文字這個案子這一個案子 小林有控嗎這個案子引起人民多大的質疑跟不滿之前南檢在辦的時候 起訴的時候大家講說 哎 終於有動了"},{"start":546.024,"end":554.93,"text":"就台北地驗他竟然說沒辦法證明陳董就是陳仲諺雖然那個袋裡面都清清楚楚就有陳仲諺那個圖像啊現在剛剛司法為什麼被那麼多的質疑剛才吳思瑤說一定要公正嘛不要選擇性辦案嘛你這段時間你看你最近這幾年來民進黨的不只陳仲諺"},{"start":573.154,"end":601.731,"text":"要嘛跑掉了對不對棄保險要嘛跑掉了要嘛就輕判更嚴重很多都是無罪你們還負責監聽你看你們監聽的那個譯文裡面多清楚多少證據也都沒問題所以人民為什麼會58%就現在看來好像是這車子一碰到民進黨就轉彎嘛國民黨就送飯嘛那個落差太大嘛"},{"start":603.254,"end":627.79,"text":"柯文哲不是這樣嗎柯文哲的案子你看最近這幾天你傳朱瑤虎來法官是獨立審判是不會做任我們不應該要給法官做任何的一些的一個干涉你剛問我哪個案子就是因為最近的太多案子人民都有很多意見你柯文哲你看你的北檢找了朱瑤虎去當證人要咬個柯文哲就弄到連"},{"start":629.619,"end":644.276,"text":"他自己講說什麼柯文哲跟沈千青碰面裡面談到尖華城 結果他正常是用推測的他整個人在外面 他就跑去看朋友結果他可以這樣推測那第二個210 他也沒有任何證據結果呢 你們北檢可以把他當成一個重要的證據起訴柯文哲"},{"start":645.397,"end":663.804,"text":"柯文哲跟沈憲爺講裡面都有不正訊問這個是被法院審理說到底這個政經能力有沒有夠證明的話我想法官會獨立審判所以你看那麼多案子都有問題的時候我們要給法官一個獨立的一個辦案的一個空間我們尊重我們也都非常尊重法院的判決至於證據夠不夠那個是在法庭公訪的問題那是一個舉證的問題"},{"start":665.626,"end":677.5,"text":"那我想這個既然在法院審理中我們要給法院一個獨立純淨的辦公空間所以這部分我們都不會去批評法院是什麼審判不獨立或者是不公正的一個問題那我們完全從證據來做一個認定"},{"start":681.284,"end":696.584,"text":"用證據的公法一切用法定程序用法律的一些的規範來做一個證據跟審判那我想這個我必須要尊重司法當有人民25萬人上街頭已經吶喊在怒火了當所有民調都能呈現"},{"start":698.012,"end":715.387,"text":"司法改革是崩盤的大家對於黨檢沒議題有那麼多的質疑人民也透過民調跟你講了我們期待看到從代總統到司法院到檢調有一些檢討我相信是不是在強辯你有沒有解決問題還是越講人民越生氣"},{"start":718.529,"end":736.216,"text":"再過個幾天新的民調又出來就會打臉你了我覺得我們就看人民會用各式各樣的方式表達出來我剛特別提醒你一個點你是賴清德十一項重大施政裡面最慘的不滿意最高的滿意度最低的光是這點你就要趕快好好去檢討了好來我來請教那個蜂蜜吳思瑤啊前幾天就在這裡造謠"},{"start":747.864,"end":750.446,"text":"他說啊 法庭直播需要593億會不會妳那天好像也在場對不對是哪來的 593億"},{"start":765.048,"end":790.229,"text":"法庭直播需要593億嗎我想他需要那個經費是看他那個計算基準如果說是要每一個法庭就是然後都那個硬體那個建置的話他事實上那個費用很高沒有錯我先跟你講我們現在在詢詢對不對在詢答現在都是前程直播啊你知道嗎立法院一年那麼多場的現場直播我們八個委員會嘛對不對一年你知道多少錢嗎"},{"start":795.106,"end":820.275,"text":"保安委員這部分我不瞭解胡思堯說要593億這是將近593倍的造謠耶立凡一年的直播費用一億怎麼可以這樣造謠呢這是將近600倍的造謠太離譜了"},{"start":821.553,"end":832.04,"text":"所以我今天把真相跟大家講這是第一點錢不需要這麼多第二個台灣民眾黨的提案很清楚啊我們是針對什麼特定重要的社會矚目案件啊你說凱凱案大家關不關心很關心柯文哲案子大家關不關心很關心啊重大的社會矚目案件才要撥啊所以不是所有庭都在撥嘛是不是"},{"start":853.737,"end":875.749,"text":"所以請不要再造謠了錢第一個本來沒有那麼多第二個民眾黨非常的負責我們是針對特定重大社會矚目的這個案件好不好所以不是叫你所有的全部都要補沒有而且提出來當事人提出來之後你們還可以還可以決定說這個是不是屬於真正的特定重大的社會矚目案件啊"},{"start":877.13,"end":897.016,"text":"那個報告委員即使是那個重大矚目的那個案件的話他跟整個那個審判那個制度就是為了要追求一個公正的那個判決這常常那個有時候那個目的經過那個法庭直播之後是會受到影響的這個部分必須要非常審慎這個直播是你們"},{"start":899.915,"end":923.04,"text":"開這個私改國事會議早就定了欸2017年蔡英文總統召開的私改國事會議欸裡面喔 念一段文字給你聽好不好私改國事會議是有做出建議那但是它還是必須要經過那個主管機關非常負責跟審慎那個周延的那個評估才有辦法去實行的"},{"start":924.54,"end":950.695,"text":"我先唸一下當初那個決議之後整個輿論事實上也有非常非常多的意見這部分都可以去看的一步一步來啦 第一 當初的結論是什麼107年司法院跟法務部要逐步開放法庭直播預計在執行意見後一年內要完成草案函請立法院審議這樣有夠清楚了吧"},{"start":952.482,"end":974.412,"text":"總統有開的耶而且明明確確要司法院跟法務部做這件事情嘛而且老實講 後來國民黨 民進黨都提案啊就是不見司法院跟法務部的案子啊這是當初的結論啊你可以看啊 這個有啊 對不對那你就跳票啊 欺騙大眾啊而且全世界很多先進國家都在直播"},{"start":981.977,"end":1009.888,"text":"鄉民逮捕那個案子最清楚 你看六個人在看而且這老實講 這是救我 要求你們這個司法公正性 司法改革崩盤被人家質疑一個很好的一個藥啦你這是公開透明嘛在那個直播過程裡面大家會發現檢察官的這個起訴的這個內容他到底有沒有揉製罪名有沒有把重要的這個關鍵的這個筆錄把它蓋起來有沒有不正的這個詢問"},{"start":1012.54,"end":1024.605,"text":"你明明是頭家啊 全世界都是這樣子你國內的這個私改 奪私會也是這樣啊怎麼可以現在反而倒退入然後我剛剛跟你講 經費上也不是問題啊沒有吳思堯 趙有那麼多錢啊好 民眾黨會已經提出版本了我們現在禁錮二讀了嘛我們現在禁錮二讀了"},{"start":1034.928,"end":1057.84,"text":"那我跟你講我們很期待得到司法院跟法務部的這個支持然後講這個不是為了個人任何一個人這是為了台灣整個司法改革也為了司法整個國公該透明這個是就目前就你們啦救命司法院跟檢調體系這段時間受到質疑很好很重要的一大步我今天要趕快跨出去"},{"start":1059.091,"end":1082.635,"text":"報告員其實目前的那個法庭公開其實就已經非常的公開透明了所有公開的案件所有的司法記者跟官信人都可以進到裡面去看那但是呢就是說法庭公開跟要直播這是完全不同的那個事情就是這些影像是立刻會無遠弗屆那個出去的對於所有參與訴訟的這個人包括被告不是"},{"start":1082.935,"end":1107.692,"text":"不是只有公務員 包括所有進到法庭去的這些被告證人 鑑定人 事實上他們的隱私權還有他們那個人格權 那個保護都必須要非常審慎的去評估所以不密 那為什麼美國 歐美他們為什麼都在直播那個跟委員報告 這部分司法院有做過其實大部分的那個先進國家都是那個反對 而且立法也規定說不能夠法庭直播 像德國 法國"},{"start":1108.573,"end":1112.337,"text":"日本有規定可以但是他們實務上從來都不做那歐陸國家幾乎整排通通都是五行做的美國有聯邦跟各邦聯邦法院也幾乎通通都是不能夠做只有開放各邦那如果真的要談的話"},{"start":1126.693,"end":1151.912,"text":"美國他事實上他只有很少那個案件是進入到那個陪審團去大部分更不進入訴訟的所以說他們幫的那個考量他會有其他那個特殊的考量那跟我們就是這種職業法系的那個國家考量完全是不一樣的而且要法庭直播事實上是增加當事人的負擔因為你影音出去的時候那個在現代那個影音時代你去就是如果當事人希望直播呢"},{"start":1152.967,"end":1166.004,"text":"你為什麼幫當事人決定說他不要直播呢第二個我剛講過了吧那當初為什麼蔡英文的司法國事會議他要這樣定那時候是產官學所有人都在包括你們司法院的代表但是包括我們這個議案"},{"start":1168.307,"end":1194.658,"text":"可以看一下那個當時的那個輿論其實大部分都是反對那司法院除了做那個就是委託案學者那個委託案之外我們也做過了好幾次的那個就是公聽會也有做過那個學術研討會就是焦點團體的學術研討會大部分的幾乎通通都是反對的怎麼你聽到聲音跟社會的大眾都是不一樣的我們還特別去做民調我們說我們做的是焦點團體的我們還特別去做民調你來來來我聽不聽得懂知不知詞"},{"start":1198.168,"end":1207.553,"text":"針對特定的重大社會矚目案件進行法庭的公開直播支持度多少 你知道嗎7乘5耶 不支持只有19.5耶差四百耶"},{"start":1212.036,"end":1228.024,"text":"今天我們在那個議場的時候法官協會剛剛也發了一份聲明他們也是對於這個非常質疑的對於法庭直播非常質疑所以這件事情真的必須要非常審慎的評估因為一旦開放之後就沒有辦法回頭了"},{"start":1229.468,"end":1257.517,"text":"各種聲音都有啦 那我剛剛跟你講了我沿用的第一個是我們做過民調第二個 之前蔡政府提出來的司法改革會議的結論要你們提版本嘛然後後來國民黨跟民進黨各黨的連時代力量立法院都有提案喔都有提啊那全世界也有一些先進國家都有做啊那現在老蔣沒有錯 我剛剛講的一個更嚴重的這對目前來講就是因為司法不受到信任你讓陽光射進來嘛"},{"start":1259.301,"end":1281.686,"text":"讓一些重大的案子讓人民可以看得到嘛不是老闆讓人民來有一個公開透明的過程嘛現在目前一些重要的案子現在法庭公開大家都已經可以去旁聽了絕大部分都進不去吧對不對你有看到柯文哲每次開庭前一天的晚前一天大概下午就一堆人在那邊排隊根本都進不去啊你們是不是這樣你們北院每次只要柯文哲"},{"start":1289.517,"end":1297.063,"text":"明天還要開庭 你今天下午去看下午就有人在那邊排了就是一路人進不去嘛連我們立法委人家進去旁聽都聽不了啊讓全民可以公開透明讓陽光射進我們的法庭 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":782,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時3分）請司法院王副秘書長、法務部鄭部長、調查局吳副局長。"],["主席：麻煩王副秘書長、鄭部長、吳副局長。"],["張委員啓楷：剛才民進黨吳思瑤委員強調，辦案不能選擇性辦案，一定要公正跟公平，根據我的了解，中選會對於這次的罷免連署，罷免民進黨的移送了16個案子，罷免國民黨的移送了15個案子，16比15，從數量上來看，國民黨大概每個案都辦了，而且大搜索又大收押，民進黨現在只辦了兩個案子，馬上就請回了。我先請教部長，從質跟量來看，辦國民黨是這樣辦的，大搜索、大收押，然後民進黨是這樣辦，這個符合剛剛吳思瑤說的沒有選擇性辦案，是公正、公平的嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我相信檢察官在辦案時就是依照證據來認定犯罪事實，我也尊重檢察官對個案的偵查規劃，我們不能用辦哪個黨派幾件或哪個黨派幾件去衡量說司法辦案有雙標，所以我們還是要回到個案的犯罪情節跟整個證據的不一樣，所以委員講的這個部分我是不同意啦。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，最少中選會送過去罷免國民黨的15個案子，光是那個進度你就沒辦法跟人民交代了，對國民黨是雷厲風行，幾乎每天一個案、一個案的在辦，民進黨的15個案子就丟在那裡！"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員可能不清楚，辦案是要看證據的啦，不是說看你要不要辦……"],["張委員啓楷：中選會嚴重失職囉！中選會沒有證據，為什麼要移送15個案子過去你那裡？你在打臉中選會嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個沒有打臉，中選會就是認為一些可能的……"],["張委員啓楷：你在打臉中選會嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為中選會不是辦案機關，所以它向辦案機關告發，由辦案機關去就個案來做證據的蒐集，做認定，偵查規劃，辦案，所以這個並沒有矛盾啊。"],["張委員啓楷：有沒有選擇性辦案，有沒有辦藍不辦綠，人民眼睛是雪亮的，我剛剛講得夠清楚了。","明天就是賴總統就職一周年，也是你當法務部長一年了，老實講，不光彩啦。今天聯合報的最新公布賴總統的滿意度，不滿意度高達53%，這是我們從1997年民選總統以來，從李登輝開始，5位總統中民調最低的。前幾天TVBS的民調不滿意也很嚴重，不滿意度比聯合報的調查結果還高，有55%。今天我特別要問，大家知道嗎？TVBS做的民調，人民最不滿的就是司法改革崩盤。","部長，你先休息一下，我先請教司法院，司法院長久也是受到尊敬的，可是最近這一、兩年，有沒有發現每次民調的數字顯示，司法體系從司法、檢調都受到人民很多質疑，副秘書長你看一下，不滿意度高達58%，滿意的人才只有30%，會不會覺得很沒面子、臉上無光？你們有沒有檢討？你之前檢討的是鍾文智被縱放的那個案子，對不對？其實最近案子真的還不少耶！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["張委員啓楷：現在TVBS公布完民調結果已經兩、三天了，司法院內部沒有檢討嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，其實大部分的司法同仁都非常認真敬業，這幾年真的負擔非常大，因為案件成長非常多，我們同仁也必須要鼓勵士氣，我想這個民調因為原因沒有分析，很有可能是因為近期幾件案子的關係，就是被判有罪的被告潛逃，這個部分因為民眾會有近期印象，我想這部分司法院確實就如之前所說的，我們確實是應該要深自檢討。"],["張委員啓楷：我們希望你們能深自檢討，然後找出答案，做一些改革，好不好？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，副秘說他們司法院有深自檢討，法務部有做一些檢討嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們都相信檢察官辦案都是依法、公正，完全按照證據來認定犯罪事實，回應民眾的期待，有關任何民調的結果我們都會列為參考……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，現在嚴重的就是，不是只有剛剛讓你看的TVBS，最近所有做的民調，大家對檢調都搖頭了，我們是民主社會，你看民進黨下鄉去辦人民是頭家、人民當家，但老闆已經生氣了，不是只有TVBS的民調如此，TVBS民調的不滿意度五成八，滿意的才30%……"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為我也不曉得委員認為是哪個案件我們不應該辦啦，我現在……"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛有跟你說了啊，光是一個罷免的連署大家就都搖頭了，你還不知道哪一個案子！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我……"],["張委員啓楷：來，你說什麼案子，案子可多了，你問我哪一個案子，光是柯文哲最近那個……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們不要再談個案！"],["張委員啓楷：不談個案，你問我哪一個案子？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對啊！因為……"],["張委員啓楷：案子可多咧！剛剛副秘都還知道有鍾文智這個案子，人家也知道某些重大案子要去反省，對不對？你們辦藍綠連署的案子辦得「離離落落」，讓人家覺得你是辦藍不辦綠，完全沒有公正、公平……"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有辦藍不辦綠，我們完全是……"],["張委員啓楷：選擇性辦案啊！你自己都不檢討！"],["鄭部長銘謙：個案的話，就是按照證據來辦案，我們講辦案本來就是回到證據來認定嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們現在是民主社會，你領的每一分錢都是民脂民膏。第二個，我剛才說的，民進黨辦活動時也說人民是頭家，從每次的民調顯示，老闆都跟你說了不滿意度已經那麼高了，而且老實講，你是賴清德11項重大施政裡面最慘的耶！前幾天不是有一個民調，美麗島電子報怎麼說的？五成八的民眾認為政治力介入檢調、介入司法，我告訴你，不是只有一個民調，你自己去翻最近的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不同意啦！什麼政治介入司法，我不同意，我也希望不分任何黨派，都要給司法一個辦案的純淨空間，我也不希望在哪個地方去對司法施壓，用群眾的力量去施壓，我想各界的聲音，我們都會仔細去聽。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你是法務部的大家長，你有責任讓法法務體系的檢調每個人走出去都是有風的，現在就是「頭犁犁」嘛，結果你還一直在這邊強辯，你的責任是什麼？第一個，你是頭、是大家長啊，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我相信……"],["張委員啓楷：老實講，總統為什麼任命你當法務部長？我相信不是找你來當打手，或者讓人民不信任你，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我當法務部部長就是要維護檢察官、檢調有一個純淨的辦案空間，這個請委員能夠支持。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你接這個法務部長是要做什麼事情？第一個，你一定要有一個好的歷史定位，對不對？過一陣子，就算讓你做三年、四年，再做八年，好不好？你留下的是這段時間有58%的不滿意，你就要去改啊！而且你是大家長，你要讓下面的人可以服氣啊！","我們來談某些案子。最近為什麼人民那麼不滿？剛才說過，司法院除了鍾文智的這個案子之外，最近有個案子是小芸有空嗎？這個案子引起人民多大的質疑跟不滿？之前南檢在辦、在起訴的時候，大家說終於有動了，結果臺南地院竟然說沒辦法證明陳董就是陳宗彥，事實上LINE裡面都清清楚楚就有陳宗彥的圖像啊！現在司法為什麼有那麼多的質疑？剛剛吳思瑤說一定要公正，不要選擇性辦案，你看最近這段時間，最近這一年來，民進黨的人不只陳宗彥，要嘛棄保潛逃跑掉了，要嘛就輕判，更嚴重的很多都是無罪，不只陳宗彥，還有邱莉莉，你們還負責監聽，你看你們監聽的那個譯文裡面多清楚，有多少證據，也都沒事啊！所以人民的不滿意度為什麼會有58%？現在看到的是車子一碰到民進黨就轉彎嘛，碰到國民黨就重辦嘛，那個落差太大了！柯文哲不是這樣嗎？柯文哲的案子，你看最近這幾天，你傳朱亞虎來……"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，法官是獨立審判，我們不應該給法官任何干涉啦！"],["張委員啓楷：你剛剛問我哪個案子，就是因為最近有太多案子人民都有很多意見嘛！以柯文哲的案子來說，你的北檢找了朱亞虎去當證人要咬柯文哲，結果弄到他自己講說柯文哲跟沈慶京碰面，裡面談到晶華城，結果他竟然是用推測的，他人在外面，他跑去看朋友，結果他可以這樣推測。第二個，210萬的部分，他也沒有任何證據，結果你們北檢可以把它當成一個重要證據起訴柯文哲，柯文哲跟沈慶京也講說裡面都有不正訊問、有威脅……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個案子在法院審理中……"],["張委員啓楷：對呀！"],["鄭部長銘謙：到底這個證據能力有沒有足夠證明，我想法官會獨立審判……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你看，那麼多案子都有問題的時候……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們要給法官一個獨立辦案的空間，我們也都非常尊重法院的判決，至於證據夠不夠，那個是在法庭攻防的問題，算是一個舉證的問題。我想這個案件既然在法院審理中，我們要給法院一個獨立、純淨的辦案空間，所以這部分我們都不會去批評法院審判不獨立或是不公正的問題，我們完全從證據來認定，用證據來攻防，一切用法定程序、用法律的規範來做證據攻防跟審判，我想這個我必須要尊重司法。"],["張委員啓楷：當有25萬的人民上街頭在吶喊、怒吼了，當所有民調都已經呈現司法改革是崩盤的，大家對於黨檢媒一體有那麼多的質疑，人民也透過民調跟你講了，我們很期待看到從賴總統到司法院、到檢調會有一些檢討，我相信你是不是在強辯、你有沒有解決問題……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有在強辯，任何的……"],["張委員啓楷：還是越講人民越生氣？再過個幾天，新的民調又出來，就會打臉你了，我覺得人民會用各式各樣的方式表達出來。我剛剛特別提醒你一個點，你是賴清德11項重大施政裡面最慘的，不滿意度最高的、滿意度最低的，光是這一點你就要趕快好好去檢討了！","我請教副秘，吳思瑤前幾天在這裡造謠，他說法庭直播需要593億，副秘，你那天好像也在場，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["張委員啓楷：哪來的593億？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我想他……"],["張委員啓楷：法庭直播需要593億嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：我想所需要的經費是看計算基準，如果是每一個法庭都要直播，硬體建置的費用事實上會很高沒有錯。"],["張委員啓楷：副秘，我先跟你講，我們現在在質詢、在詢答也都是全程直播啊！你知道嗎？立法院一年那麼多場的現場直播，我們有8個委員會，一年你知道多少錢嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，這部分我不了解。"],["張委員啓楷：吳思瑤說要593億，這是將近593倍的造謠耶！立法院一年的直播費用1億，怎麼可以這樣造謠呢？這是將近600倍的造謠，太離譜了！所以我今天把真相跟大家講，這是第一個，錢不需要這麼多。","第二個，台灣民眾黨的提案很清楚，我們是針對特定重要的社會矚目案件，你說大家關不關心剴剴案？很關心！大家關不關心柯文哲的案子？很關心啊！重大的社會矚目案件才要播，所以不是所有庭都要播，是不是？所以請不要再造謠了！第一個，錢本來就沒有那麼多，第二個，民眾黨非常負責，我們是針對特定重大社會矚目的案件，好不好？所以不是叫你所有的庭全部都要播，沒有！而且當事人提出來之後，你們還可以決定這個案件是不是屬於真正的、特定重大的社會矚目案件啊！"],["王副秘書長梅英：報告委員，即使是重大矚目的案件，它跟整個審判制度就是為了追求公正的判決，有時候那個目的經過法庭直播之後是會受到影響的，這個部分必須要非常審慎。"],["張委員啓楷：這個直播是你們的司改國是會議早就訂了的，2017年蔡英文總統召開的司改國是會議，我唸一段文字給你聽，好不好？"],["王副秘書長梅英：司改國是會議是有做出建議，但是它還是必須要經過主管機關非常負責跟審慎、周延的評估，才有辦法施行的。"],["張委員啓楷：我先唸給你聽……"],["王副秘書長梅英：當時做出那個決議之後，整個輿論事實上也有非常非常多的意見，這部分都可以去看。"],["張委員啓楷：我們一步一步來！第一個，當初的結論是什麼？2017年的結論是，司法院跟法務部要逐步開放法庭直播，預計在諮詢意見後於一年內完成草案，函請立法院審議。這樣有比較清楚了嗎？總統府開的耶，而且明明確確要司法院跟法務部做這件事情，老實講，後來國民黨、民進黨都有提案，就是不見司法院跟法務部的案子，這是當初的結論！部長，你可以看，這個有，對不對？你們就跳票了啊！欺騙大眾啊！而且全世界很多先進國家都有在直播，強尼戴普那個案子最清楚，你看有多少人在看，而且老實講，這是救你們司法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謝謝主席 麻煩部長我們都希望我們在外交的工作上一方面不用看輕自己也不用疑神疑鬼當然也不能粉飾太平 不能憂慘畏饑所以本席今天我們"},{"start":25.626,"end":45.104,"text":"想請外交部我們一起來討論一個問題就是說在中國跟拉美的共同體論壇我們兩個邦交國一個聖路西亞一個海地他們的官方人員有出席我有看到你們的回應說他們的政府說那是代表政黨"},{"start":47.472,"end":60.459,"text":"我不曉得外交部怎麼看待這兩個國家出席中國拉美論壇你們怎麼定義它是一個警訊呢還是一個什麼樣的指標你們怎麼定義它"},{"start":62.157,"end":80.813,"text":"跟委員報告 因為這次中拉的論壇是已經辦理過所以這一次我們都有在預防 那也跟很多友邦溝通至於說海地跟深入下都有特殊的狀況 那也都有跟我們說明所以我們當然還是希望說他們能夠不出席"},{"start":84.115,"end":105.954,"text":"出席他們也保證不會涉及跟台灣邦交的傷害當然他們回來之後也跟我們在進一步有報告我還是問一下我們國家外交部對這個看法是認為OK一切在可控範圍內所以還好不用擔心還是把它視為一個警訊"},{"start":107.575,"end":129.984,"text":"這些都是我們必須注意的警訊但是呢我們也在可控的範圍內事前事後都做妥善的因應這個CELAC這個拉美跟加勒比海國家聯盟然後中國透過跟這個聯盟的33個國家組了一個叫做中國與拉美的論壇那這一個"},{"start":132.705,"end":158.964,"text":"論壇呢在目前為止大概部長級會議辦了四屆嘛對不對是第一屆是2015第二屆是2018第三屆後來因為COVID延後了到20212018到2021之間還有視訊的部長級會議再來就是這一次的2025年5月13號這一次的部長級會議我請問部長前面三次聖露西亞跟海地他們有沒有官員與會"},{"start":162.142,"end":180.912,"text":"前面三次有沒有沒有好跟以前他自己比沒有這一次2025年的5月13號我們在那個區域的四個邦交國瓜地馬拉貝里斯海地還有聖露西亞另外那兩國有沒有派員參加沒有那為什麼就這兩國"},{"start":182.267,"end":197.269,"text":"海地的情形當然他們的說明是從2月開始其實我們就交涉了因為就已經知道要在北京辦我們也有去溝通希望他能夠不派代表"},{"start":198.03,"end":214.284,"text":"不過基於海地它現在因為是臨時政府有一些未來的維和工作也需要聯合國包括中國你們認為聖露西亞跟海地派去的人員是官方代表還是非官方代表"},{"start":215.233,"end":239.306,"text":"以海地來講他是這個外交部長所以他這一定的程度是有代表性不過他們的說明是他們是以拉共體作為整體這個決定沒有啊以拉共體來講他前三次沒去啊以拉共體來講貝里斯沒去啊瓜地馬拉沒去啊如果你們認為是去沒關係我可控那下一次瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯為什麼不去"},{"start":240.492,"end":268.804,"text":"因為海地的情形現在在國際的他現在臨時政府也不能做出決定啦所以我們有很多當然有因應的方案在避免意外發生那所以這個是我要提醒外交部就是說那個區域是我們非常重要的坦白講叫外交戰場也是美國從Rubio這些佛羅里達邦進入國務院之後很重視的區域"},{"start":270.134,"end":291.31,"text":"每一件事情都有它的意義如果我們認為這個區有跟我們講過了然後這兩個國家說他們是代表民間那就沒關係了我給你保證很快就有第五屆部長級會議很快那個區域我們的邦交活動會參加否則不公平啊你對那兩國絕對沒關係啊所以我們怎麼因應怎麼處理你事前勸導了應該有啦"},{"start":293.587,"end":312.183,"text":"事前應該有勸止啦那他還是不聽執意要去外交部長去代表國家欸另外一個講什麼政黨啦這個民間人士他根本就是聖露西亞的無任所大使是聖露西亞聘任的無任所大使外交人員然後這一個所謂的"},{"start":317.096,"end":338.404,"text":"中國與拉美論壇的部長級會議是中國2014年開始跟所謂的拉美加勒比海這些國家這個聯盟所組成的一個叫做建制化的合作關係他論壇之後還有後續追蹤事項以及後續合作事項美國對這個事情有沒有看法"},{"start":344.264,"end":372.62,"text":"因為海地他現在的情形就是臨時政府所以不能夠對外交做出什麼決定那我們當然二月之七之後也跟他不斷的溝通那在他的這個保證事後來看也沒有就是說跟他先前跟我們表達的我可不可以建議Pending一些跟他們談妥的合作事項我覺得外交我們會通盤來做考量我在國會部門我可以建議當然我不建議部長直接隨著我話講"},{"start":374.144,"end":380.64,"text":"本席建議對聖露西亞或海地我們有一些合作的援助的方案"},{"start":383.144,"end":412.046,"text":"我跟你們報告 包括最近我們以三省來講包括美國 包括他們的總理到華埔那當然這個是多邊的關係的運用我們必須加強跟這些國家的關係不一定是用檢法啦那怎麼樣借助美國 也關注拉美特別是盧比歐國務卿從美國通過台北法案以後美國在跟台灣 在我們現有的"},{"start":412.927,"end":439.088,"text":"不管是邦交關係或者非邦交關係他會用他們的外交工具來跟台灣一起合作這個我們知道也一段時間了有時候好一點有時候少一點那個部分我們都知道我現在意思是說在這個區域有四個國家現在有兩個國家呢也可以講說無視於跟我們的默契或無視於台灣美國跟這個區域我們有相關的默契他去了"},{"start":440.526,"end":453.013,"text":"如果他去了你還可以給他加罰的話等於是鼓勵壞同學懲罰好同學所以我們國會可以當黑臉"},{"start":454.361,"end":483.573,"text":"對於這樣的國家我剛剛委員會的意思我並不是說加法我是說是不是要去針對某一些項目怎麼樣減法我們還要再通盤的來研議你們從去年因為今年一二月就開始類似專案在處理這個事情在monitor這個情形了海地的部分持續很密切的關注你們關注到它真的五月份發生了那應該也有預判發生之後我應該採取什麼樣的因應處理嗎你們現在有沒有方案有"},{"start":484.775,"end":507.431,"text":"我私底下如果因為有涉及到有一些機密我們跟海地關係的加強不用全部都在這邊公開揭露但是你們應該已經預先想好scenario one我應該採取什麼方案第二種狀況我要什麼方案應該要有那我們對拉美跟加勒比海區域有沒有其他的外交突破點或新的亮點"},{"start":510.274,"end":532.807,"text":"當然我們都有在就是推動中因為是讓美國對西半球的重視包括我們在這些國家有一些外交的成果也有一定的這個示範效果我講具體一點啦比如某個國家蝦農嘿嘿嘿40%失業被中國騙了一天到晚那邊說希望跟台灣來談OK"},{"start":539.375,"end":551.447,"text":"當然你重力旺益台灣又不是潘娜但是有很多外交機會出現的時候我們該怎麼樣建構對我們國家利益最有幫助的舞台或者局面"},{"start":552.806,"end":576.677,"text":"我真的希望我們國外交委員會兩位召委可以排專門就那個區域的局勢可以談一談當美國跟薩爾瓦多談把他們一些犯人移到那裡Rubio跑到那裡去了當拉美、加勒比海有一些外交的三角形的變化的時候台灣在那裡有沒有能夠更進一步的這個我是建議部長可以處理那另外呢因為今天時間關係"},{"start":578.697,"end":597.604,"text":"我們現在日經亞洲報導說外國駐台的人員創新高就外交部目前統計起來有哪些國家新派外交人員新派我想美日英等國確實都增加"},{"start":600.694,"end":612.268,"text":"派出的人員嘛那增派的外交人員的項目是哪?比方說是經貿類的或者國安類的或者軍事類的他增加的外交人員有沒有哪個範圍比較大?"},{"start":614.319,"end":640.381,"text":"應該都有 當然對於因為台灣現在跟國際的交流有很多實質上包括中共對台的這一些混合戰 灰色地帶的侵擾還有各種的假訊息 資安這些都是新興的項目另外當然經貿我們包括在科技尤其是跟半導體相關的產業就我目前能夠看到的資料"},{"start":641.081,"end":663.846,"text":"不管是英國日本澳洲跟德國他們增加在台灣的駐台灣的外交人員多數都跟區域安全或戰略事務有關嘛這是一部分應該多數是我第一個請外交部整理一份你用機密的我沒有意見整理一份駐台的外交人員"},{"start":665.117,"end":680.808,"text":"各國各地區他增加的人員是增加哪一類的多少人員新增了當然代表台灣越來越重要各國派更多的駐地人員來到台灣這當然是好事但我們也要了解他派了哪個類別如果派的都是經濟事務的那讓在經濟事務上"},{"start":682.409,"end":708.717,"text":"他可能有一些想法要跟我們談他有的都是戰略安全事務上的可能在這方面有些事務要談那我們的對口單位應該要整合國內相關部會跟來進行對話這個資料可不可以整理一份給本席好其他部分我就不佔太多時間了我請特別注意聖露西亞跟海地的事情可能怎麼處理會影響後續我希望如果在公開不變的話私下能夠提供相關資訊給我們好 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":598,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（11時9分）謝謝主席。麻煩部長。","部長早！"],["林部長佳龍：委員好！"],["王委員定宇：我們都希望我們在外交的工作上不用看輕自己，也不用疑神疑鬼，當然也不能粉飾太平、不能憂讒畏譏，所以本席今天想請外交部一起來討論一個問題，就是在中國跟拉美的共同體論壇，我們兩個邦交國（一個聖露西亞、一個海地）的官方人員有出席，我有看到你們的回應，說他們的政府說那是代表政黨。我不曉得外交部怎麼看待這兩個國家出席中國拉美論壇，你們怎麼定義它，是一個警訊，還是一個什麼樣的指標，你們怎麼定義它？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，因為中拉的這個論壇已經辦理過，所以這一次我們都有在預防，也跟很多友邦溝通，至於海地及聖露西亞，他們都有特殊狀況，也都有跟我們說明，雖然我們還是希望他們能夠不出席，出席他們也保證不會涉及跟臺灣的邦交造成傷害，當然他們回來之後，也有跟我們再進一步報告……"],["王委員定宇：我還是問一下我國外交部對這個的看法，是認為OK、一切在可控範圍內，所以還好不用擔心，還是把它視為一個警訊？"],["林部長佳龍：這些都是我們必須注意的警訊，但是也在我們可控的範圍內，事前事後都有做妥善的因應。"],["王委員定宇：中國透過跟這個CELAC（拉美與加勒比海國家聯盟）的33個國家組了一個中國與拉美的論壇，到目前為止這一個論壇部長級會議大概辦了四屆，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["王委員定宇：第一屆是2015，第二屆是2018，第三屆因為COVID-19延後了，所以到2021，2018到2021之間還有部長級的視訊會議，再來就是2025年5月13日這一次的部長級會議。我請問部長，前面三次聖露西亞跟海地有沒有官員與會？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有。"],["王委員定宇：前面三次有沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有。"],["王委員定宇：好，跟他自己以前比沒有。2025年5月13日這一次我們在那個區域的四個邦交國（瓜地馬拉、貝里斯、海地，還有聖露西亞）當中另外那兩國有沒有派員參加？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有。"],["王委員定宇：那為什麼就這兩國？"],["林部長佳龍：海地的情形，當然他們的說明是……其實從2月開始我們就交涉了，因為就已經知道要在北京辦，我們也有去溝通，希望他能夠不派代表，不過基於海地現在是臨時政府，有一些未來的維和工作也需要聯合國，包括中國……"],["王委員定宇：你們認為聖露西亞跟海地派去的人員是官方代表，還是非官方代表？"],["林部長佳龍：以海地來講，他是外交部長，所以這一定程度是有代表性，不過他們的說明是，他們是以拉共體作為整體這個決定……"],["王委員定宇：沒有啊！以拉共體來講，他前三次沒去啊！"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["王委員定宇：以拉共體來講，貝里斯沒去，瓜地馬拉沒去啊！如果你們認為去沒關係，你可控，那下一次瓜地馬拉跟貝里斯為什麼不去？"],["林部長佳龍：因為海地的情形，現在國際的……"],["王委員定宇：你懂我的意思嗎？我現在不能理解外交部怎麼處理這件事情。"],["林部長佳龍：因為他現在臨時政府也不能做出決定，所以我們當然有很多因應的方案在避免意外發生。"],["王委員定宇：我要提醒外交部，那個區域是我們非常重要的外交戰場，也是美國從盧比歐這些佛羅里達幫進入國務院之後很重視的區域。每一件事情都有它的意義，如果我們認為這個區域有跟我們講過了，然後這兩個國家說他們是代表民間，那就沒關係了，我跟你保證，很快就有第五屆部長級會議、很快那個區域我們的邦交國通通參加，否則不公平，你對那兩國覺得沒關係啊！所以我們怎麼因應、怎麼處理？你應該有事前勸導了。"],["林部長佳龍：有，溝通。"],["王委員定宇：事前應該有勸止，他還是不聽，執意要去，外交部長去代表國家，另外一個講什麼政黨、民間人士，他根本就是聖露西亞的無任所大使，是聖露西亞聘任的無任所大使、外交人員，然後這一個所謂的「中國、拉美和加勒比國家共同體論壇」的部長級會議，是中國2014年開始跟所謂的拉美、加勒比海這些國家聯盟所組成的一個建制化的合作關係，論談之後還有後續追蹤事項以及後續合作事項，美國對這個事情有沒有看法？"],["林部長佳龍：因為海地他現在的情形是臨時政府，所以不能夠對外交做出什麼決定，我們2月知悉之後也跟他不斷的溝通，要他保證，事後來看，也沒有他先前跟我們表達的……"],["王委員定宇：我可不可以建議pending一些跟他們談妥的合作事項？"],["林部長佳龍：我覺得外交我們會通盤來做考量。"],["王委員定宇：我在國會我可以建議，當然我不建議部長直接隨著我的話講，但本席建議，對聖露西亞或海地，我們有一些合作的、援助的方案，pending他。"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員報告，最近我們以「三聖」來講，包括美國，他們的總理到華府，當然這個是多邊關係的運用，我們必須加強跟這些國家的關係，不一定是用減法，怎麼樣藉助美國關注拉美，特別是盧比歐國務卿……"],["王委員定宇：從美國通過臺北法案以後，美國跟臺灣在我們現有的不管是邦交關係或者非邦交關係，他會用他們的外交工具來跟臺灣一起合作，這個我們知道，也進行一段時間了，有時候好一點、有時候少一點，那個部分我們都知道。我現在的意思是說，在這個區域有四個國家，現在有兩個國家也可以講說無視於跟我們的默契，或無視於臺灣、美國跟這個區域有相關的默契，他去了。如果他去了，你還可以給他加法的話，這個等於是鼓勵壞同學、懲罰好同學，所以我們國會可以當黑臉，對於這樣的國家……"],["林部長佳龍：委員，我剛剛的意思並不是說加法，我是說是不是要去針對某一些項目怎麼樣減法，我們還要再通盤的研議。"],["王委員定宇：因為今年1、2月就開始類似專案在處理這個事情，在monitor這個情形。"],["林部長佳龍：海地的部分持續很密切的關注，其實從去年……"],["王委員定宇：你們關注到他5月份真的發生了，那應該有預判發生之後要採取什麼樣的因應處理，你們現在有沒有方案？"],["林部長佳龍：有，因為有涉及到有一些機密，我私底下……"],["王委員定宇：我尊重。"],["林部長佳龍：我們跟海地關係的加強……"],["王委員定宇：對外談判不用全部都在這邊公開揭露，但是你們應該已經預先想好，scenario one，我應該採取什麼方案；第二種狀況，我要採取什麼方案，應該要有。我們對拉美跟加勒比海區域有沒有其他的外交突破點或新的亮點？"],["林部長佳龍：當然我們都有在推動中，事實上美國對西半球的重視，包括我們在這些國家有一些外交的成果，也有一定的示範效果。"],["王委員定宇：我講具體一點，比如說，某個國家的蝦農有40%失業，被中國騙了，一天到晚在那邊說希望跟臺灣再來談。OK，當然你重利忘義，臺灣又不是「盼仔」，但是有很多外交機會出現的時候，我們該怎麼樣建構對我們國家利益最有幫助的舞臺或者局面？我真的希望我們外交及國防委員會的兩位召委可以排專門就那一個區域的局勢談一談，當美國跟薩爾瓦多談，把他們一些犯人移到那裡，盧比歐跑到那裡去了，當拉美、加勒比海有一些外交的三角形的變化的時候，臺灣在那裡有沒有能夠更進一步？這個我是建議部長可以處理。","另外，因為時間關係，現在日經亞洲報導，外國駐臺的人員創新高，就外交部目前統計，有哪些國家新派、增派外交人員？"],["林部長佳龍：我想美、日、英等國確實都增加派駐的人員。"],["王委員定宇：增派外交人員的項目是哪些？比方說是經貿類的或者國安類的或者軍事類的，他增加的外交人員有沒有哪個範圍比較大？"],["林部長佳龍：應該都有，因為臺灣現在跟國際的交流有很多實質上的，包括中共對臺的這一些混合戰、灰色地帶的侵擾，還有各種的假訊息、資安，這些都是新興的項目。另外，在經貿方面，我們包括在科技，尤其是跟半導體相關的產業……"],["王委員定宇：部長，就我目前能夠看到的資料，不管是英國、日本、澳洲跟德國，他們增加在臺灣的駐臺灣外交人員多數都跟區域安全或戰略事務有關。"],["林部長佳龍：這是一部分。"],["王委員定宇：應該多數是，第一個，我請外交部整理一份資料，你用機密的我沒有意見，整理一份各國、各地區駐臺的外交人員增加的人員是增加哪一類的，新增多少人員？這當然代表臺灣越來越重要，各國派更多的駐地人員來到臺灣，這當然是好事，但我們也要了解他派了哪個類別，如果派的都經濟事務的，那當然在經濟事務上他可能有一些想法要跟我們談；如果派的都是戰略安全事務上的，可能在這方面有些事務要談，那我們的對口單位應該要整合國內相關部會跟他來進行對話，這個資料可不可以整理一份給本席？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["王委員定宇：其他部分我就不占太多時間，請特別注意聖露西亞跟海地的事情，可能怎麼處理會影響後續，如果在公開不便的話，希望私下能夠提供相關資訊給我們。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["王委員定宇：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝王定宇委員的質詢。","接下來請羅美玲委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-15","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","王定宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅美玲","林憶君","王鴻薇","陳永康"],"page_start":319,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等48案","agenda_id":"1145001_00014"}}},{"id":"161549","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161549","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f03207734acf1b23ca28de2cce2b28366a0be1aa9793fcacdd6e357ca2c70d75735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"11:04:34 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謝謝委員如果有任何的新的技術跟資訊在整個吸鹽設備上面來講我們也可以推介給現在的吸鹹廠不是 吸鹹廠他們又下不了手說價格都很貴 宰到人家都不想做"},{"start":97.341,"end":121.58,"text":"軟體都以為很便宜我只是這樣講真的要提升我們這個水準一定要用現代化的技術科技的去做我只提醒這一點量少廠商也不一定願意做這個注意一下但是如果在台灣做成功的話可以銷到世界各國去希望這一點我是提出來再來今天是我們經濟委員會"},{"start":123.963,"end":140.578,"text":"來解凍我們農業部跟公平委員會那談到解凍最近發生了很多的事情都說我們災害黨在刪預算在凍結預算那我剛剛請我辦公室把他列出來"},{"start":141.929,"end":169.77,"text":"在114年度農業部本部的預算減列委員會裡面2500萬零包時減列零水保時減列零移業時減列零房檢時減列是零等於刪你們的預算是零再來農經時也是零農糧時也是零農田水利時也是零刪列你們的預算"},{"start":170.697,"end":176.702,"text":"那凍結多少?有,你的本部是2.34億,林保是2200萬元,水保是1000萬元,那個漁業是5300萬,黃金是500萬,農金是200萬,農糧是3000萬,農田水綠是凍結500萬,"},{"start":196.557,"end":201.779,"text":"你剛才唸的這個數據一個證明就是什麼我們經濟委員會的委員用專業的方式來看我們農業部的預算所以啊經濟委員會所有不分陶園兩派都很支持你們你也來亂說把凍結預算說三類你是老實啊 我不好意思講你還是很專業"},{"start":226.386,"end":242.801,"text":"那有的其他委員 大家在這個經濟委員會裡面都一群二子怎麼可以這樣在電視台亂講不是 那個是在黨團 黨團在提案的時候黨團出來也差不多這樣子沒有 黨團出來 農業部曾經要被刪到剩下零欸哪裏農業部會後面刪到 叫這個經濟委員會這些人不能做啊我們怎麼敢去面對農民"},{"start":249.167,"end":261.996,"text":"不然五百萬是拿來賭的所以像您對農業了解你們就OK所以我不好意思跟你講你真的比較老實一點講得無法無天的一片造假虛偽"},{"start":263.939,"end":278.228,"text":"真的沒有這樣的事情你們亂想出來我想我們農業部發出來的一定都是真實的我跟您說不是一定怎麼樣不要配合上面真正的大家在這個地方審查預算誰有跟你們亂過誰有跟你們亂刪過你們自己人如果再刪你們不曉得嗎"},{"start":284.076,"end":296.304,"text":"比在野頂高高高高二百不是我們在調和的時候哪裡有這樣我是要講一下現在大壩面如獨如我我要把事實尊重不然這口氣真的吞不下去讓你們講到不聽話"},{"start":298.442,"end":314.759,"text":"好像執政黨很清高,在野黨都亂山綠山我希望好好檢討一下朝野的和諧很重要啊我講這個不針對你,我是把事情講出來好不好啊當然啦,參了預算,有的人要改指"},{"start":315.751,"end":335.401,"text":"我只希望你留下來 你有沒有信心留下來說留下來你就笑 我會替你保健因為你是腳踏實地在做事情的人你管你預算你也不敢亂花眼剛剛是給你表態而已 跟上面先是效忠我達到你的目的 留下來吧"},{"start":336.994,"end":353.972,"text":"留下來以後在地有幾件事情要拜託你我要謝謝你苗栗的冷鏈計畫你也給我們360萬做前期的規劃那後期的規劃很重要冷鏈一流冷鏈物流冷鏈的知識改得好"},{"start":354.713,"end":375.586,"text":"我相信會帶動臺灣農業的一個發展也能保障農民生產的權益因為我現在去了解說現在的技術突破變化的太快臺灣這一點好好去把它鍛鍊一下把這整個做下來可以的話到國外隨時大家都能生產"},{"start":376.607,"end":387.161,"text":"我只做一點,要愛情你要好好拜託,不要說我給你笑笑的,給你惹惹的你就不要給我,我告訴你,你剛剛的校中行政院長一定聽得到啦,"},{"start":388.564,"end":401.274,"text":"要不要補助計畫出來好好審你不要笑而不答很曖昧我就很緊張我現在不知道怎麼回答您的問題你這樣子也不敢回答你給我的話你怕被上面罵我們在委員長你給了怕被上面罵嗎大膽一點該做的就要做我們回到專業"},{"start":409.64,"end":434.792,"text":"就是您剛才講的冷鏈的計畫我們提供一些規劃費規劃完了以後我們會規劃後的方案跟它的規模還有它的營運主體我們會經過審查會在可能的範圍之內我想區域冷鏈物理中心是一個非常重要非常重要我們會來協助但是還是要看最後的規劃出來的這些規模跟它的經營主體還有它的相關的這些設計啦這個我們後續會透過審查來確定好的"},{"start":438.333,"end":464.705,"text":"農糧市長你最了解你台中分屎出來我會請教過你好幾次你要下來指導我會做的完美給你好不好你還要弄給我去做以前是我不會做現在是從頭都要設計好不要改來改去我們的確診抓住這一點好不好再來我經常拜託的農奉醫港直銷中心我們的規劃大概完成也是最近要送進來"},{"start":466.309,"end":481.229,"text":"我常常給你愛情,給你爽爽的,你會不會為難我容然是要做最好,請多多幫忙那個地點很漂亮,你有沒有去過我昨天還去看歌,我們現在的現狀,我看歌走這麼遠"},{"start":482.776,"end":497.124,"text":"都在旁邊離岸婚禮也在那一邊地點非常優越全台灣省找不到了我的照片再傳給你看晚上照片起來非常漂亮真的是地方創新能給農民有很高的"},{"start":498.485,"end":515.106,"text":"以後量以外那以後變成一個人潮的中心我照片給你我昨天特地去看我跟小孩子去看課現在的量雖然沒有贏但是還能達到四分之三那以後中心幫幫忙好不好"},{"start":516.014,"end":536.833,"text":"我想同樣的我們也提供了大概四百八十幾萬的規劃費嘛我要跟委員報告其實我們現在遇到一個更重要的問題就是財務法以後農業部的非常多的預算要被切出去所以相對的我們在符合我們農業部在協助的部分特別是在你們這邊提到的這些直銷中心"},{"start":537.654,"end":566.974,"text":"然後他規劃出來以後我們看他的規模然後怎麼樣跟地方政府一起努力讓這個職教中心能夠成立這是最大目標啦保證 財務法現在在大法庭釋憲我判斷會拖一兩年我的判斷不一定會通過因為兩邊還要再協調我不曉得有沒有送去釋憲如果財務法的釋憲等解釋出來大概最少要拖兩年"},{"start":568.975,"end":589.416,"text":"兩邊還有溫隆山要請請測測在一些還沒有很確定以前雖然立法院過了但是所有執政黨都不承認他不喜歡的就收到大法庭去這也很奇怪但是我講如果沒有確定以前容然照舊的話請多多的幫忙跟協助好不好"},{"start":589.876,"end":607.748,"text":"會 我們會一起來跟地方政府一起來努力現在再來 我的問題比較小 也沒有說很大白沙屯有一個農會要改建 你們昨天就說要跟我們答應那個是一個地標 會給你農業部做很好的景點一天去到 15萬人 輪山輪海"},{"start":612.224,"end":631.961,"text":"他們送計畫來我們會來處理應該送計畫囉還沒有送還沒有送我去追他們幫幫忙好不好媽祖要幫你保佑每一個人都升官你留任好不好謝謝真的喔上來要給我倒上槓喔不然我不敢去別山路去拜拜因為我要看他啦"},{"start":632.779,"end":653.5,"text":"你這樣講就變成對價關係了不是對價關係我是拜託啊我想我們針對相關的地方的建設在中央的財政許可的範圍之內我們會來做協助然後重點就是說地方包括農會那部分他也要有規劃案出來我們才能夠做評估保證啊你敢說對價關係我為人不敢說"},{"start":656.883,"end":672.826,"text":"你這名對駕我們為民請命你要說對駕你比檢察官還惡劣我是替百姓承認這個要解決了因為講到對駕現在都隨便亂談只要一談就把你扣上去我有順利其通的感覺"},{"start":673.467,"end":689.76,"text":"不會啦 我想委員是從地方的角度來爭取經費的好啦 你不要講對價 等一下檢察官這邊有錄音 檢察官把我拿過去你受害我了 改天我會找機會跟你回覆一下好不好 謝謝 拜託了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":616,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時4分）首先謝謝主席，有請陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["陳委員超明：部長早。剛剛我聽到謝衣鳯在講洗選蛋，苗栗的蛋沒有像彰化那麼多，洗的方面我比較不清楚，我是剛剛才聽到，但是對於選蛋，現在有一個AI技術，而且非常好，那一家公司要跟我們農業部去合作、去談的時候，覺得困難很多，所以他只有外銷到國外，沒有在臺灣賣，因為臺灣的雞場也不大，但是你們在採購時這些就要去看，如果可以，就統一採購給雞場去做，用AI來選，可以挑選出最高級的蛋，且完全依照國外的水準，這是剛剛謝委員在質詢的議題，我談到這一點。如果你有需要，我就提供這家公司給你們，真的非常好。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員，如果有任何新的技術跟資訊，在整個洗選設備上面來講，我們也可以……"],["陳委員超明：不要去排斥。"],["陳部長駿季：我們可以推介給現在的洗選廠。"],["陳委員超明：不是，洗選廠又下不了手，說價格都很貴，宰到人家都不想做，軟體都以為很便宜，我只是這樣講。真的要提升我們的水準，一定要用現代化的技術，用科技去做，我只是提醒這一點。"],["陳部長駿季：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：量少廠商也不一定願意做，這個注意一下。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：但是如果在臺灣做成功的話，可以銷到世界各國去，我是提出這一點。","再來，今天是經濟委員會要解凍農業部跟公平委員會的預算。談到解凍，最近發生很多事情，都說我們在野黨在刪預算、在凍結預算，我剛剛請我的辦公室把它列出來，在114年度，農業部本部的預算在委員會裡面減列2,500萬，林保署減列0，水保署減列0，漁業署減列0，防檢署減列0，等於刪你們的預算是0。再來，農金署也是減列0，農糧署也是減列0，農田水利署也是減列0。那凍結多少？有！你的本部是2.34億，林保署2,200萬元，水保署1,000萬元，漁業署5,300萬，防檢署500萬，農金署200萬，農糧署3,000萬，農田水利署凍結500萬，你們講得天花亂墜……"],["陳部長駿季：委員，你剛才念的數據，證明的就是什麼？證明經濟委員會的委員用專業的方式來看我們農業部的預算，所以他刪的是合理的，我們被刪的是在黨團裡面被刪的。"],["陳委員超明：經濟委員會不分朝野黨派都很支持你們，你們不要隨便亂說……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有……"],["陳委員超明：把凍結預算說成刪減，唉唷！你是老實，我不好意思講你，你還不敢亂講啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對，委員會的是很專業……"],["陳委員超明：有的其他委員，大家在經濟委員會裡面都一清二楚，怎麼可以在電視台這樣亂講！"],["陳部長駿季：不是，那個是黨團在提案的時候……"],["陳委員超明：黨團出來的也差不多是這樣子啦！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，黨團出來後，農業部曾經要被刪到剩下0耶！"],["陳委員超明：哪有把農業部刪到0？"],["陳部長駿季：那是後面才撤案的。"],["陳委員超明：經濟委員會這些人不會這樣做，不然我們怎麼敢去面對農民？不要隨便拼湊，要升官也不是這樣！"],["陳部長駿季：像您對農業了解，你們就OK……"],["陳委員超明：你是比較老實一點，所以我不好意思跟你講，你真的是比較老實一點。講得無法無天，一片造假虛偽，真的沒有這樣的事情，你們亂講出來！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們農業部發出來的一定都是真實的。"],["陳委員超明：我跟你說，不是一定怎麼樣，不要配合上面，真正的大家在這個地方審查預算，誰有跟你們亂刪過？你們自己人也有在刪，你們不曉得嗎？比在野黨還更霸道，要不是我們在調和，哪裡有這樣！我是要說，現在大罷免如火如荼，我要把事實呈現出來，不然這口氣真的吞不下去，被你們講得不能聽，好像只有執政黨很清高，在野黨都亂刪預算！回去好好檢討一下，朝野的和諧很重要。我講這些不是針對你，我只是把實情講出來，好不好？當然，刪了預算，聽說520要改組，我只希望你能夠留下來，你有沒有信心留下來？","說到留下來你就笑，我會替你保薦，因為你是腳踏實地在做事情的人。關於預算，你也不敢亂花。剛剛是給你表態而已，跟上面宣誓效忠，我達到你的目的，留下來吧！留下來以後，我在地方有幾件事情要拜託你。我很謝謝你，有關苗栗的冷鏈計畫，你給我們360萬做前期的規劃，後期的規劃也很重要，冷鏈物流的技術改得好，我相信會帶動臺灣農業的發展，也能保障農民生產的權益。因為我下去了解，發現現在的技術突破、變化得太快，臺灣要好好去把這一點鍛鍊一下，整個做下來，可以的話，到國外大家隨時都能生存，我只要求這一點，需要經費，你要讓我拜託，不要我罵一罵，你就不給我。我跟你說，你剛剛的效忠，行政院長一定聽得到，要不要補助我？計畫出來了，好好審！你不要笑而不答，你很曖昧，我就很緊張。"],["陳部長駿季：我實在不知道怎麼回答您的問題。"],["陳委員超明：你這樣子也不敢回答？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，苗栗的……"],["陳委員超明：你給我的話，你怕被上面罵嗎？你給了在野黨，怕被上面罵嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有！"],["陳委員超明：大膽一點，該做的就要做。"],["陳部長駿季：我們回到專業。您剛才講的冷鏈計畫，我們提供了一些規劃費，規劃完了以後，規劃後的方案跟它的規模，還有它的營運主體，我們會經過審查，在可能的範圍之內，我想區域冷鏈物流中心是非常重要的……"],["陳委員超明：非常重要。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會來協助，但還是要看最後規劃出來的這些規模跟它的經營主體，還有相關的設計，我們後續會透過審查來確定。"],["陳委員超明：好。農糧署長，你最了解，你是臺中分署出來的，我請教過你好幾次，你要下來指導，我會做得完美給你，好不好？你要下來給我指導。"],["姚署長士源：好。"],["陳委員超明：以前是亂做，現在是從頭都要設計好，不要改來改去，我們要確認抓住這一點，好不好？再來是我常常拜託的龍鳳漁港直銷中心，我們的規劃大概完成，也是最近要送進來，我常常跟你要錢、跟你吵一吵，你會不會為難？我仍然是要做到最好，請多多幫忙！那個地點很漂亮，你有沒有去過？我昨天還去牽罟，現在當地牽罟有很多「現撈仔」漁產，而離岸風力也在那邊，地點非常優越，全臺灣省找不到了。我再傳照片給你看，晚上照起來非常漂亮。地方創生除了能給農民有很高的漁獲量以外，以後那裡也會變成一個有人潮的中心。我給你照片，我昨天特地去看，我孩童時期就在牽罟，雖然現在的量沒有贏過當時，但是還能達到四分之三。請幫幫忙成立魚貨中心，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：同樣的，我們也提供了大概四百八十幾萬的規劃費嘛！"],["陳委員超明：對。"],["陳部長駿季：其實我們現在遇到一個更重要的問題，就是財劃法修正以後，農業部有非常多的預算要被切出去，所以相對的，符合農業部在協助的部分，特別是這邊提到的直銷中心規劃出來以後，我們看它的規模，怎麼樣跟地方政府一起努力，讓這個直銷中心能夠成立，這是最大目標。至於鼓勵……"],["陳委員超明：財劃法現在在大法庭釋憲，我判斷會拖一、兩年，我的判斷是不一定會通過，因為兩邊還要再協調，我不曉得有沒有送去釋憲。如果等財劃法憲法解釋出來最少要拖兩年，我們都知道、清清楚楚，在還沒有很確定以前，雖然立法院過了，但是執政黨都不承認，他不喜歡的就送到大法庭，這也很奇怪！如果沒有確定以前仍然照舊的話，請多多幫忙跟協助，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會跟地方政府一起來努力。"],["陳委員超明：再來，我的問題比較少，也不是很大，白沙屯有一個農會要改建，你們那時候下鄉說要答應，那是一個地標，也可以給農業部作為很好的景點，一次有四、五十萬人，人山人海。"],["陳部長駿季：他們送計畫來，我們就會處理。"],["陳委員超明：應該送計畫了。"],["陳部長駿季：還沒有送。"],["陳委員超明：我去追他們，幫幫忙，好不好？媽祖會保佑你，每一個人都升官，你留任，好不好？謝謝。送來真的要幫忙我，不然我不敢去白沙屯媽祖那裡拜拜，因為我有答應過祂。"],["陳部長駿季：你這樣講就變成對價關係了。"],["陳委員超明：不是對價關係，我是拜託，跟你們拜託。"],["陳部長駿季：不是針對相關的地方建設，在中央財政許可的範圍之內，我們會來協助。重點就是地方包括農會也要有規劃案出來，我們才能夠評估。"],["陳委員超明：部長，你跟我說對價關係，害我話都不敢講。這不是對價，我們是為民請命，你跟我說對價，你比檢察官還惡劣。"],["陳部長駿季：不是！"],["陳委員超明：我是替百姓陳情，這個要解決。因為講到對價，現在都不能隨便亂談，只要一談就把你扣上去，我有身歷其痛的感覺。"],["陳部長駿季：不會！"],["陳委員超明：但是我很誠懇、我很實在。"],["陳部長駿季：委員是從地方的角度來爭取經費的。"],["陳委員超明：好，你不要講對價，這邊有錄音，等一下檢察官把我抓過去，你陷害我，改天我會找機會跟你回復一下。"],["陳部長駿季：不敢！"],["陳委員超明：好不好？謝謝，拜託了。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時16分）","繼續開會（11時22分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","下一位請賴瑞隆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-13","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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這個我想謝謝委員的提醒喔包括ESG的導入包括一些融資貸款的 低利貸款的誘因還有對於環境永續"},{"start":272.519,"end":289.944,"text":"對於不影響其他周邊的住戶這個都是我們需要改進的部分嘛是不是你沒有提供相關的誘因的情況下飼養戶怎麼會改進沒有改進的情況下影響的也是全部的居民啊是不是"},{"start":291.412,"end":318.049,"text":"我想謝謝委員的提醒我們後續如果有一個比較好的規劃也許可以到彰化去開一個說明會然後去讓這些這些基農就是養雞的這些最主要的大戶的部分讓他了解有什麼樣的方式可以讓環境更衛生然後不會變成零幣作用然後立體化栽培提高它的育成效率這個部分我想我們再來規劃來提供好那我再請教第二問題今天有非常多的"},{"start":318.829,"end":334.821,"text":"委員都講到了落農其實我們知道落農的就是說牛或者是羊他們影響乳量最大的部分就是他們的飼料就是牧草"},{"start":336.282,"end":356.645,"text":"過去我們有說到希望國內的青稞玉米的產量能夠提高那你有沒有辦法做到提高到46萬公噸這個就是在我們的雜糧轉做裡面他轉青稞玉米的政策誘因要下購"},{"start":357.767,"end":365.122,"text":"那這樣的話就會變成清割玉米然後讓它有一些木草可以還有一些蘭薇草的部分也是一樣這個我們正在設計"},{"start":366.69,"end":386.997,"text":"有没有什么样的政策要因你设计你有没有跟主要的乳品供应商共同来讨论他们对于乳量据我了解他们对于乳量的控制第一个就是从它的饲料的部分"},{"start":388.237,"end":414.927,"text":"如果他們的要求裡面沒有能夠接受國內我們的青稞玉米那當然我們有非常強大的改良廠啊我們可以就是製造出來就是我們的牛能夠生產出優質乳量的時候他所需要的這個甘草嘛那為什麼他們要用國外進口的百慕達草為什麼"},{"start":417.068,"end":431.59,"text":"我想基本上我們台灣的氣候的關係我們在木茶收割以後它的乾燥跟打包有沒有它的效率比較不好而且它的濕度水分含量比較高所以很容易台灣話叫凹到有沒有它就會比較"},{"start":433.072,"end":460.153,"text":"口感或質感都比較不好所以這個部分這也會影響乳量嘛對 然後我們在續長那個什麼我們的敘事所其實已經有一些比較新進的新進的技術所以我才會說我們在第一個轉做的部分把牧草納進去如果第一個鼓勵他們去種第二個就是在乾燥打包的那個技術如果能夠讓我們的畜牧業者認同的時候那相關的相關的這些飼料的轉移就會開始進行"},{"start":461.474,"end":476.331,"text":"那所以目前還沒有辦法現在有少部分每一年都還是有少部分的國內的這些牧草進到我們的飼料系統因為我們要雜糧轉做我希望說我們對於這個我們必須要就是優化我們整個就是農作業"},{"start":477.311,"end":492.656,"text":"也希望說在大家都仰賴進口的牧草的情況下是不是能夠採用就地的牧草那這個部分我相信以我們農業部的技術是有辦法去克服那是不是能夠設下一個目標"},{"start":493.896,"end":513.769,"text":"讓我們農業部對於我們的使用國內牧草就是我們的飼養使用國內牧草能不能有一個共同的目標那這個情況下是不是然後大家共同來做那當然也需要所有的乳品業者共同的配合是不是我想第一個就是我們回去會針對"},{"start":516.471,"end":539.317,"text":"牧草的政策由於就是轉作的時候是不是有機會把這個機器人打破只要他願意種就可以得到一些獎勵然後這個部分如果有的話面積會比較多然後會再跟飼養牛的畜牧場去合作我們先找一些示範願意來做的然後去做配方的調整那可以的話我們就會大力來推動"},{"start":540.037,"end":559.792,"text":"好我希望說我們可以建立這樣的目標不然過去我們在推動一段期間都沒有就是成效的情況下未來希望可以達到目標那當然也能夠讓台灣的農地做有效的利用然後能夠達到永續的這個發展好謝謝委員提醒我們會努力謝謝好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":558,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時55分）謝謝主席。我想要請部長。"],["主席：有請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長早安。我想要請問一下，2018年農業部曾經決定要推動雞蛋全面洗選，希望把洗選蛋從三成提高到100%，但是這麼多年，從2018年到現在，你看全面洗選其實還沒有完全到位，你們到底有沒有想要推動，現在到底遇到什麼問題？第一個，我們現在飼養雞的雞場有沒有辦法整體的配合洗選蛋這樣子的供應系統？雞蛋上面的噴墨到底會不會造成消費者相關在食用上的疑慮，你是不是能說明清楚？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員非常關心雞蛋洗選的部分，目前洗選的百分比大概是50%，差不多一半……"],["謝委員衣鳯：到50%是不是？從2018年到現在，從30%上升到50%。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們曾經檢討過，第一個就是洗選廠的量能，這是第一個；第二個更重要的就是，後端洗選蛋的供應量，所以我們現在一直在努力看看可不可以推展到早餐店，因為早餐店本身如果經過洗選，它是比較安全、衛生的。如果它早餐店能夠順利的用洗選蛋的時候，前端因為有需求，牧場端就會進到洗選端，所以兩個關鍵因素，一個是洗選廠的量能，洗選廠量能現在大概起來了，因為在過去幾年，我們有做協助，現在就是需求端如果拉得出來，那就會往這邊繼續努力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以大家不喜歡用洗選蛋？大家還是喜歡傳統的買蛋，用挑的，是不是這種方式？"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我們現在就是從市場端，包括餐廳、包括早餐店……"],["謝委員衣鳯：為什麼民眾會有這樣子的……"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在在溝通，我比較不喜歡用強制的，一下子用強制的，會有很多人反彈。"],["謝委員衣鳯：為什麼民眾會喜歡這樣子，不喜歡洗選蛋？是不是有什麼原因？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有……"],["謝委員衣鳯：是他們覺得洗選蛋噴墨會造成影響，還是……"],["陳部長駿季：價格的問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：價格比較貴，對嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：價格的問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有對於我們現在養雞，大家在談寵物福利的相關問題嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：國外很流行的是放牧雞，我們在臺灣其實放牧雞方式，養雞場沒有那麼多的空間。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有那個土地……"],["謝委員衣鳯：未來我們新的、現代化的養雞場要怎麼樣能夠達到動物福利這樣子的一個設施呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們後續在推養雞場的改建或興建的時候，其實立體化的栽培是全世界一個趨勢，包括養豬場、養雞場，它立體化栽培，它的空間就有機會變大，這個部分，我想臺南已經有一個場，它已經……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你趕快來我們彰化弄一個啊！是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會努力……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們彰化也是，有三分之一的雞蛋全部都是彰化來的。"],["陳部長駿季：現在彰化本身的牌照是被鎖住的，因為我們也不希望養雞場新增太快……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，但立體化呢？"],["陳部長駿季：但是改建立體化的話，我們可以來考慮，就是它立體化以後量變多了，是不是可以用其他的場類似合作的方式來處理……"],["謝委員衣鳯：而且需要現代化嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：現代化的方式，你能夠增加投資……"],["陳部長駿季：我們會融資低利貸款。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是不是可以結合企業的ESG相關的誘因進去？你才能促使這些飼養戶能夠去投資，投資一定是需要成本的，在這種成本沒有誘因的情況下，養雞戶是不會要去做這些相關的事情。"],["陳部長駿季：對，謝謝委員的提醒，包括ESG的導入，包括一些融資低利貸款的誘因……"],["謝委員衣鳯：還有對於環境永續、對於不影響其他周邊的住戶，這個都是我們需要改進的部分嘛！是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你沒有提供相關誘因的情況下，飼養戶怎麼會改進，沒有改進的情況下，影響的也是全部的居民啊！是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的提醒，我們後續如果有一個比較好的規劃，也許可以到彰化去開一個說明會，讓這些雞農，就是養雞的最主要大戶來了解，有什麼樣的方式可以讓環境更衛生，不會變成鄰避作用，然後立體化栽培，提高它的育成效率，這個部分我們再來規劃、來提供。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。我再請教第二個問題，今天有非常多委員都講到了酪農，其實我們知道酪農的……就是牛或是羊，影響牠們乳量最大的因素就是牠們的飼料、就是牧草，過去我們有說過希望國內青割玉米的產量能夠提高，你有沒有辦法做到提高到46萬公噸，國內有沒有辦法？"],["陳部長駿季：這個就是在我們的雜糧轉作裡面，轉青割玉米的政策誘因要下得夠，這樣就會變成青割玉米，讓他有一些牧草，還有一些狼尾草的部分也是一樣，這個我們正在設計，看有沒有什麼樣的政策誘因……"],["謝委員衣鳯：你設計時，有沒有跟主要的乳品供應商共同來討論？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我們……"],["謝委員衣鳯：據我了解，他們對於乳量的控制，第一個就是從飼料下手，如果他們的要求裡面不能夠接受國內的青割玉米，當然我們有非常強大的改良場，可以製造出讓我們的牛能夠生產出優質乳量時所需要的乾草，那為什麼他們要用國外進口的百慕達草？為什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：基本上臺灣因為氣候的關係，我們在牧草收割以後，它的乾燥跟打包的效率會比較不好，而且它的溼度、水分含量也比較高，所以很容易折到，它的口感或質感就會比較不好，所以這個部分……"],["謝委員衣鳯：這也會影響乳量嘛？還是乳的品質？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們的畜試所其實已經有一些比較先進的技術，所以我才會說，我們在轉作的部分把牧草納進去，第一個，鼓勵他們去種，第二個，如果乾燥、打包的技術能夠讓我們的畜牧業者認同的話，相關的飼料轉移就會開始進行。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以目前還沒有辦法？"],["陳部長駿季：現在有少部分，每一年都還是有少部分的國內牧草進到我們的飼料系統裡面。"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為我們要雜糧轉作，我希望……"],["陳部長駿季：對，這部分我們來努力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們必須要優化整個農作的情況，也希望在大家都仰賴進口牧草的情況下，是不是能夠採用就地的牧草？這個部分，我相信以我們農業部的技術是有辦法去克服的，所以是不是能夠設下一個目標，農業部對於我們使用國內牧草來飼養能不能有一個共同的目標？這個情況下，大家共同來做，當然也需要所有的乳品業者共同來配合嘛，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是，第一個，我們回去會針對牧草的政策誘因，就是轉作的時候，看是不是有機會把這個基期年打破，只要他願意種，就可以得到一些獎勵。這個部分如果有的話，面積會比較多，然後會再跟飼養牛的畜牧場去合作，我們先找一些示範、願意來做的去做配方的調整，可以的話，我們就會大力來推動。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，我希望可以建立這樣的目標，不然過去我們推動一段期間都沒有成效，未來希望可以達到目標，當然也能夠讓臺灣的農地做有效的利用，能夠達到永續的發展。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員的提醒，我們會努力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝謝衣鳯委員。","下一位請陳超明委員質詢。陳委員質詢後，休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-13","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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它又降到10% 為期90天大家有這個時間呢 來好好的來討論那同時呢 在國內的產業 因為我們是出口導向所以大家都非常非常的關心 非常關心尤其呢 在中部地區 我們的產業我們的手工具機 工具機 機械類別 零組件這一些呢 都是我們的幫手 非常的重要因為出口導向 所以都很緊張"},{"start":55.956,"end":70.221,"text":"那在這樣的情況之下呢川普日前又說在未來的二到三週他會請他的財政部長跟商務部長會發函給各國也告訴大家到底內容是什麼所以本席首先要請教這個二到三週要發函的也包括我們台灣嗎我們會收到信嗎請做說明"},{"start":76.806,"end":89.519,"text":"我們現在台灣跟美國在有關關稅談判是順利進行當中那我們也就是說至於說川普會不會去宣布哪個國家這不是我們能夠掌握的啦不過就是我們跟他的談判在第一批而且現在順利進行中是不是"},{"start":93.883,"end":95.764,"text":"那這個指的是說沒有跟他啟動談判他要宣布薪水率還是包括已經在談判中那因為理論上在談判中就是所以現在沒有辦法確認我們在這二三週會不會收到信碼是這麼解讀嗎對 因為這是川普的決策我們無法代言我們繼續來討論"},{"start":113.35,"end":123.336,"text":"我們要掌握這個脈動因為就是總統先生日前也受訪問的時候他有說談判的目的就是要避免大於10%的高關稅這個情況那我方呢"},{"start":128.158,"end":142.129,"text":"我們要怎麼樣爭取對我們台灣最有利對我們國家最有利的所以請教部長我們的關稅會不會高過10%還有我們都非常好台美都非常好的這個情況之下我們台灣會有豁免的產品嗎你目前有這個方向跟訊息嗎"},{"start":149.594,"end":153.099,"text":"因為賴總統他有在國際媒體上發表一個強化台美經澳路徑圖然後現在我們跟美方的談判也就相關的項目已經都有一個清單也有方案"},{"start":168.019,"end":179.664,"text":"這個稅我們當然像對等關稅是越低越好至少不能高於我們對我們其真的國家因為你是外交部長都參與其中而且等於是在第一線所以再一次請教總統先生這麼說了會不會我們會低於還是高於這10%這是第一個議題第二個也就是我們的豁免產品據你所悉到目前為止我們有嗎"},{"start":191.149,"end":197.312,"text":"我們希望說在半導體還有這些跟資通訊有關的能夠豁免因為這個我們供應鏈跟美國是半導體跟資通訊對 跟互補嘛因為我們這些產品跟它說實在是供應鏈的關係其實如果高關稅是兩敗俱傷甚至甚至它傷得更重我們當然是去說明那事實上他們也慢慢的了解我們像這個供應鏈互補的關係"},{"start":216.423,"end":223.607,"text":"可是基於談判的策略最後的結果會如何現在是對等關稅在先跟電子業相關的這一些這個本來就沒有關稅的問題的時候現在再加上去但是這個是屬於232條款那現在先談的是對等關稅"},{"start":238.996,"end":266.928,"text":"可是因為對冷關稅是把所有的貿易力他都賺進來那我們希望把那個也把它扣除掉其實台美的貿易利差就不大了好 這是我們非常的這個希望那麼也希望台灣的貨品產品成本你剛才所報告的那接下來請教南非打壓我國的住處處理的進度目前到底是如何因為在二月份要求我們簽署首都三月份的時候又更名那現在最近又要改為"},{"start":268.268,"end":278.375,"text":"這個月安理事到目前為止我們我方我們交涉的進度到底是如何我們的解方究竟是什麼請做說明是南非想要求我們簽管或者是說要幫我們變更這些地位是從去年就開始我們也做很早的因應到目前為止聽到您說這個是小動作但是這個小動作我們要怎麼去因應呢"},{"start":295.168,"end":305.543,"text":"我們有做好這個就是對策嘛就是說如果實質上因為這個是他片面行為我們不予承認因為根據台灣跟南非的這個1997年雙邊簽訂的協議啊他不能夠片面這樣子做我們法律意義訴訟我們也研究過"},{"start":312.773,"end":323.939,"text":"實質的整個怎麼樣去反制我們也有方案那它現在基於什麼政治的考量片面做這個行為我們在交涉中而且表達嚴正的抗議那因為這個東西也引發了他們國內外的反彈"},{"start":328.201,"end":340.813,"text":"除了美國以外政府跟國會包括他們自己的聯合政府裡面的政黨還有在野黨以及社會大眾包括輿論所以這個壓力其實也是回到他那邊去所以我們希望說還有緩衝的空間但一旦他真正實質傷害到我們比如說強迫要我們簽管或者是做了一些這是違反協議的事情的時候那我們也會有反制這些方案也都準備好"},{"start":354.085,"end":380.96,"text":"部長您剛才談到的我們會有反制喔那麼我們也希望能夠確保他是我們不會遷出的這是我們努力的方向所以當然所以您剛才講了兩個重點第一個是他的片面的行為我們不予承認第二個我們的因應一定要小心應對方案也就是我們不能遷出你可以確保嗎對這是我們的目標也是目前的現況"},{"start":381.943,"end":398.869,"text":"你是目前的現況,所以你一定要確保,是不是?是好,接下來本席要請教,因為09年召聚WHA但是我們台灣的醫療是非常非常的在國際間,對國際也很幫助我們台灣也真的是太棒了"},{"start":399.449,"end":424.674,"text":"所以在這樣的一個情況之下WHA即將在5月19號到27號在瑞士日聯網要展開所以本席當然也主張我們台灣的醫療實力是享譽國際我們不該被排除所以我們外交部要怎麼樣的方案有效的來推動在我們這個方向能夠加入WHA 請做說明"},{"start":425.094,"end":450.282,"text":"是 那我因為在這一次衛福部長率隊出去日瑞瓦參加WHA的大會之前我們有開雙部長的記者會那我們一方面當然就是由我國家聯名或近恰到邦交國跟非邦交國這些情形都是越來越多支持我們的力量另外可能到大會之後我們要申請加入會有辯論"},{"start":451.682,"end":474.86,"text":"那目前我想還是按照往例進行按照往例進行 所以部長因為我們台灣的這個醫療實力確確實實是國際間也非常的重視也是我們最佳的一個優點也是我們最佳的一個戰慾國際的實力我們務必一定要加強而且去落實我跟委員說一下這次有個特色就是強調智慧醫療"},{"start":477.242,"end":480.824,"text":"我們包括像宏碁、智一還有廣達電腦我們現在包括在APEC裡面提的那個所謂數位跟AI在醫療上去解決這些所謂的落差現在也就是醫療我們的數位科技的應用那麼同時也因為WHA這樣子我們看到美國即將要推出WHO"},{"start":504.281,"end":519.734,"text":"那在這樣的一個情況之下台灣台灣是否會失去一個很重要的發聲的一個重要力量那在這樣的情況之下我們外交部你的因應措施呢如果陳真你的因應措施呢"},{"start":520.542,"end":547.658,"text":"這涉及到就是所謂川普總統他們在美國退出這個WHO之後是不是有另外成立類似的組織如果有我們會去參加嘛但是我們還是爭取參加WHO這個我們認為這個問題關鍵當然是因為政治上所以最近包括美國還有歐盟還有很多像日本的國家都在所謂聯合國2758號決議上採取很明確的立場支持台灣而且認為這跟台灣參加包括世界衛生組織這個是"},{"start":549.699,"end":578.636,"text":"沒有排除台灣參加所以我們台灣的醫療實力是戰慾國際我們現在台日台美台歐盟我們必須要加緊這個腳步因為這個是我們非常重要的一個發展的根基參與是我們的權利不沒有被任何決議排除那現在就是說我們沒參加也是世界的損失但是沒參加世界損失我們還可以用其他的方法來貢獻世界所以應對的方案一定要備案"},{"start":579.256,"end":590.722,"text":"當然我們不希望他是陳真但是應對的方案我們務必要備案我們爭取參加世界衛生組織但是我們並不以不能參加就不能夠參與或貢獻國民當然所以剛剛北京所說的台日台美台歐盟我們都必須要務實的去落實嘛好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":540,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時54分）謝謝主席，邀請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["主席：部長，我們來討論川普4月份對大多數的美國貿易國家開徵了高額的關稅，剛開始他原則上對臺灣設定32%的加徵關稅，之後他又降到10%並為期90天，大家有這個時間來好好的討論，同時在國內的產業，因為我們是出口導向，所以大家都非常非常的關心，尤其在中部地區，我們的手工具機、工具機、機械類別零組件，這一些都是我們的「蜂巢」，非常的重要，又出口導向，所以都很緊張。在這樣的情況之下，川普日前又說在未來的二到三週，他會請他的財政部長跟商務部長發函給各國，告訴大家到底內容是什麼。所以本席首先要請教這二到三週要發函的也包括我們臺灣嗎？我們會收到信嗎？請說明。"],["林部長佳龍：我們臺灣現在跟美國的關稅談判是在順利進行當中，至於川普會不會去宣布哪個國家，這不是我們能夠掌握的，所以就是我們跟他的談判在第一批，而且現在順利進行中。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以在未來二到三週不知道會不會收到信，是不是？"],["林部長佳龍：他指的是沒有跟他啟動談判，他要宣布新稅率，還是包括已經在談判中，因為理論上在談判中就是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你現在沒有辦法確認我們在這二、三週會不會收到信嘛，是這麼解讀嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對，因為這是川普的決策，我們沒有辦法代表。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，對，那我們就繼續來討論，我們要掌握脈動。因為總統在日前受訪的時候也說，談判的目的就是要避免大於10%高關稅的情況，那我方要怎麼樣爭取對我們臺灣最有利、對我們國家最有利的？請教部長，我們的關稅會不會高過10%？還有我們臺、美關係都非常好的情況之下，我們臺灣會有豁免的產品嗎？你目前有這個方向跟訊息嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：因為賴總統在國際媒體上發表了談話，就是強化臺美經貿路徑圖……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，日前總統說的。"],["林部長佳龍：然後現在我們跟美方的談判，相關的項目已經都有清單，也有方案，所以稅，我們當然希望對等關稅越低越好，至少不能高於跟我們競爭的國家。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你是外交部長，都參與其中，等於是在第一線，所以再一次請教……"],["林部長佳龍：豁免我們希望說臺灣……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們會低於還是高於10%，這是第一個議題。第二個也就是我們的豁免產品，據你所悉，到目前為止我們有嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們希望在半導體，還有跟資通訊有關的能夠豁免，因為這個我們供應鏈跟美國互補，因為我們這些產品跟他說實在是一個供應鏈的關係，所以如果採高關稅是兩敗俱傷，甚至他們傷得更重，我們當然是去說明，事實上他們也慢慢的了解，我們現在是供應鏈互補的關係。可是基於談判的策略，最後的結果會如何，現在是對等關稅在先……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就像部長剛剛所說的，希望半導體能夠有豁免的產品項目？"],["林部長佳龍：跟電子業相關的這一些我們當然希望，因為這個本來就沒有關稅的問題，現在再加上去，但是那是屬於232條款，現在先談的是對等關稅。可是因為對等關稅是把所有的貿易逆差都算進來，我們希望把那個也扣除掉，其實臺美的貿易逆差就不大了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這是我們非常希望的，也希望臺灣的豁免產品誠如你剛才所報告的。","接下來請教南非打壓我國的駐處，處理的進度目前到底如何？因為2月份要求我們遷出首都，3月份的時候又更名，最近又改為約翰尼斯堡，到目前為止，我們交涉的進度到底如何？我們的解方究竟是什麼？請說明。"],["林部長佳龍：是南非想要求我們遷館或是想幫我們變更地位，是從去年就開始，我們也很早做了因應，到目前為止……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們也在媒體上聽到您說這是小動作，但是這些小動作我們要怎麼去因應呢？"],["林部長佳龍：我們有做好對策，因為這是他們的片面行為，我們不予承認，因為根據臺灣跟南非1997年雙邊簽訂的協議，他不能夠片面這樣子做，法律訴訟我們也研究過，實質上怎麼樣去反制，我們也有方案，他現在基於什麼政治的考量，片面做這個行為，我們在交涉中，而且表達嚴正的抗議。因為這個東西也引發了他們國內外的反彈，除了美國以外，政府跟國會包括他們自己聯合政府裡面的政黨，還有在野黨及社會大眾包括輿論，所以這個壓力其實也是回到他那邊去。所以我們希望還有緩衝的空間，但一旦他真正實質傷害到我們，比如強迫我們遷館或者是做一些違反協議的事情，我們也會有反制，這些方案也都準備好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，部長，您剛才談到，我們會有反制，我們也希望能夠確保我們不會遷出，這個是國人的期待……"],["林部長佳龍：這是我們努力的方向，也是我們要捍衛的權利。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：您剛才講了兩個重點；第一個是這是他們片面的行為，我們不予承認；第二個，我們的因應一定要小心應對，方案也就是我們不能遷出，你可以確保嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對，這是我們的目標，也是目前的現況。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也是目前的現況，所以你一定要確保，是不是？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。接下來本席要請教，我們連9年遭WHA所拒，但是臺灣的醫療對國際是非常非常有幫助，臺灣真的是太棒了，在這樣的情況之下，今年WHA即將在5月19日到27日在瑞士日內瓦展開，本席當然也主張──臺灣的醫療實力享譽國際，我們不該被排除、不該被排除！所以外交部要用怎麼樣的方案來有效推動，讓我們能夠加入WHA，請做說明。"],["林部長佳龍：是，在這一次衛福部長率隊去日內瓦參加WHA大會之前，我們有開雙部長記者會，我們一方面當然就是由友我國家聯名或逕洽，包括邦交國跟非邦交國，這些情形都顯示出越來越多支持我們的力量。另外，到大會之後，我們要申請加入，可能會有辯論，目前我想還是按照往例進行，至於……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：按照往例進行，部長，因為臺灣的醫療實力確確實實是國際間也非常重視，也是我們一個最佳的優點，也是我們讚譽國際的實力，我們務必要加強，而且去落實，連帶的……"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員說明一下，這次有個特色，就是強調智慧醫療，我們的宏碁智醫……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我們是享譽國際，也是我們最佳的實力。"],["林部長佳龍：還有廣達電腦，就APEC裡面提的數位跟AI去解決所謂醫療上的落差……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個就是我們剛才討論的……"],["林部長佳龍：對、對、對，現在不只是醫療……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也就是我們的醫療實力非常的讚……"],["林部長佳龍：還有數位科技的應用，我們也將在這次展示。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：同時也因為WHA這樣，我們看到美國即將要退出WHO，在這樣的情況之下，臺灣是否會失去一個發聲的重要力量，外交部的因應措施呢？如果成真，你的因應措施呢？"],["林部長佳龍：這個涉及到川普總統在美國退出WHO之後是不是有另外成立類似的組織，如果有，我們會去參加，但是我們還是爭取參加WHO，我們認為這個問題關鍵當然是因為政治上，所以最近包括美國、歐盟，還有很多，像日本，都在聯合國2758號決議上採取很明確的立場，支持臺灣，而且認為這並沒有排除臺灣參加包括世界衛生組織，所以是越來越清楚。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：臺灣的醫療實力是讚譽國際，所以現在臺日、臺美、臺歐盟我們必須要加緊這個腳步，因為這個是我們非常重要的一個發展根基……"],["林部長佳龍：對，參與是我們的權利，並沒有被任何決議排除，現在就是我們沒參加也是世界的損失……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：參與是我們的權利，當然我們要參加，但是我們要怎樣應對……"],["林部長佳龍：雖然我們沒參加是世界的損失，但是我們還可以用其他方法來貢獻世界。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以應對的方案一定要備案……"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然我們不希望它成真，但是應對的方案我們務必要備案。"],["林部長佳龍：對，我們爭取參加世界衛生組織，但是我們並不以不能參加就不參與或貢獻國際。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，所以剛剛本席所說的，臺日、臺美、臺歐盟我們都必須要務實的去落實。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。"],["林部長佳龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員上臺質詢，接下來我們休息5分鐘。","休息（11時4分）","繼續開會（11時9分）"],["主席：現在開始開會。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員上臺質詢，鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員上臺質詢，蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員不在。","請王定宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-15","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","王定宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅美玲","林憶君","王鴻薇","陳永康"],"page_start":319,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等48案","agenda_id":"1145001_00014"}}},{"id":"161546","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161546","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f05b2bd564b79d4ed8239b9191e0d12eea0be1aa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謝謝NCC我想今天的這個題目我覺得要先幫人民定義一件事情因為這個相關的資料我們可以看到在相關的新聞中電信三雄犧牲否認洩露個資據我看相關的新聞報導事實上相關的應用其實在3G的年代三大業縣是不是就接受NCC的監督認為相關的業務是不得已在電信公司裡面進行的我想要請您先說明一下"},{"start":45.305,"end":60.682,"text":"是的 因為電信業者本來就是NCE所下管的業者那我們都在各自法的法尊上我們也有依據各自法27條定有安危辦法來請他們來落實這些各自維護相關事項"},{"start":61.283,"end":77.855,"text":"好 所以截至目前為止 這還是你們的轄管業務內容 對嗎所以如果他們真的有做出疑似洩露個資的行為其實NCC你們會第一時間去進行調查包含主席今天排的這個案子其實當時你們已經進行調查我們看到相關業務報告 對嗎對 已經進行調查5月3號批落資料官5月5號 5月9號都兩次來找他們來做行政調查那預計什麼時候會公布相關調查報告"},{"start":87.467,"end":111.459,"text":"我們也把相關的資料函送給相關機關做是否有違反各自的一些請他們處處簡單來講就是說這個簡訊的發送的流程裡頭最源頭端的簡訊代發業者的企客然後簡訊代發業者然後再來三大電信公司然後再達一般用戶那NCG能夠管的範圍是針對三大電信這一塊我們做行政調查"},{"start":112.099,"end":126.238,"text":"那另外代發業者跟代發業者企客那是有相關主管機關來處理因為他一個是資訊服務業者另外一個是行銷公司那個不在NCC的作用法能夠守管家範圍內好 謝謝您說得非常的清楚"},{"start":127.419,"end":155.309,"text":"三大電信歸NCC管理人們已經做了相關調查可是所謂代發業者或是簡訊代理公司或是說廣告行銷商他們的相關業務就不歸你們管轄所以我們可不可以定義這一次也就是主席特地排案這個事件它比較接近哪一個樣態比較接近是廣告代理商的議題還是是在三大電信這邊請您再次的說明就我們完整今天調查的結果它的問題應該是出現在最上游端或者最上游端"},{"start":156.51,"end":174.95,"text":"簡訊代發業的企業用戶那邊他們為什麼會有這些個資資料是那一塊的部分好 那這一塊其實就是國人最擔心的疑慮也就是說我們可能在非常多地方消費我們都會留下所謂會員資料或者是像我自己的小孩他可能他的學校資料就曾經被一些補習班拿去用"},{"start":175.31,"end":199.737,"text":"其實過往到底在民間的這些所謂商業服務公司如何使用我們每一個人的個資其實樣態是不清楚的可是確實如果收到相關的簡訊是會讓人擔心的那剛剛王逸川委員其實也有提醒到這一塊我們往下看下一張我可不可以請NCC跟我們說明到底我們身為一般消費者我就是一個不管是哪一個電信公司的門號使用者消費者我有沒有拒絕像這樣簡訊的權利有 這個"},{"start":202.998,"end":232.264,"text":"一般民眾他如果要做電信公司提供LBS服務他必須要電信公司要問他說你同不同意我提供你LBS服務他同意的話他才會提供這個服務好那我們有沒有在過往的相關業務當中提醒民眾我們在申辦電信門號或者是當我電信門號已經使用超過一段時間我認為這個LBS的訊息確實讓我感到困擾的時候我可以做後續的主張就是如同您剛說的有這個而且他能隨時跟up in跟up out就是說隨時可以去申請跟電信公司申請的"},{"start":232.904,"end":259.805,"text":"好如果真的像您所說的我認為加強宣導應該很重要但是至於另外一個部分就是廣告代理公司的部分或者是其他廣告代理商的部分那個是另外一個議題我覺得比較困擾但是我還是要提醒NCC我們到底可不可以舉一些例子來幫我們說明就一般民眾的角度來說什麼樣的簡訊有可能是三大電信那邊發出來的而什麼樣的簡訊比較像是廣告代理公司發出來的您可不可以幫我們做"},{"start":260.566,"end":281.981,"text":"科普性的說明讓一般消費者知道我今天如果收到一個簡訊不管它是政治類的非政治類的我要怎麼判斷它是來自三大電信公司的議題或者是來自所謂廣告代理公司的問題是從技術面來看民眾所有的簡訊都是電信公司發的但是它只是都是透明化的一個傳送就是跟電信管理法第八條一樣"},{"start":282.441,"end":298.443,"text":"是那源頭端對發送的人通常都不會是三大電信公司除非是三大電信公司自己的促銷方案對例如說哪一家公司有什麼促銷方案這個可能是三大電信公司用所謂內部客戶的資料去發這個簡訊但是你的"},{"start":298.963,"end":326.557,"text":"所以如同您的意思是說大部分的廣告簡訊或者是我們今天要談的這所謂政治類的簡訊極有可能比較多大部分應該是所謂廣告代理公司啊行銷公司啊公安公司他們不知道什麼情況下拿到了我們每一個人的個資然後透過他們的透過三大電信的這個發送的管道發送出去比較像是這樣對大部分情況是這樣好但因為這又不是你們業管的嘛對不對對那源頭端他資料收集是他要自己要負責任他有違反應該是相關主管機關來處理"},{"start":327.557,"end":348.344,"text":"好但是如果是這樣我覺得回到所謂如果有三大電信這一端所出去的我覺得就是要再次拜託NCC可以再加強宣導對於一般使用者來說我確實是可以直接去要求這些電信公司不可以用我的資料然後或者是說我不想收到所謂LBS簡訊這個是我們可以再次加強宣導跟推廣的對不對"},{"start":349.124,"end":352.646,"text":"這個部分我們希望看到你們更清楚的廣告文宣我不過很確定一下你們那個廣告文宣費有沒有被刪"},{"start":375.155,"end":397.601,"text":"我們這一塊的費用有些是在基金那邊目前還可以那我們希望看到更多你們對於一般民眾加強推廣然後我覺得也可以減少大家收到相關簡訊的疑慮好不好我認為增加很多社會溝通除了政治議題上增加很多社會溝通絕對是必要的好嗎好 謝謝那接下來我要回到兒少議題我要拜託警政署 謝謝那NCT這邊請回 謝謝"},{"start":403.305,"end":423.217,"text":"好 我們關心政治議題 關心政治困境我們也要關心家長所擔心的在整個週末 所有的社群 家長社群都炸鍋了就是在台北 新北 高雄 好像連桃園也有有所謂中國直播主在國小外面拍攝所引起的爭議跟擔心我不知道警政署這邊有沒有講過相關進度跟資料"},{"start":427.62,"end":441.331,"text":"目前我們掌握到就是高雄有一件就是對於這個直播組的一個相關拍攝行為那經過查證這一件事沒有牽涉到拍攝到學童的這種狀況所以這件事沒有呈案的"},{"start":442.071,"end":466.694,"text":"那第二案就是在台北市所以等一下你們成案的標準叫做有沒有拍攝到小孩的臉這樣嗎對對對就是說這個案就是所以他整個直播的片段你們全部都看完一個小孩的臉都沒有拍到這個案就是他沒有對於這樣的一個行為正過調查之後沒有涉嫌違法拜託警政署我們講白話文給一般民眾聽啦就是這一件我剛剛家長在意的是小孩的臉有沒有被拍到然後被不當的應用"},{"start":468.055,"end":480.242,"text":"這一件事沒有做被不當的運用那第二件事有第二件事發生在台北市的這一間的一個民生國小門口嗎對 是民生國小這一間是有拍攝到這些血統的這些相關的這個樣態那這個樣態裡面是有違反有違反這個兒童及少年這個權利保護法所以兒少權法兒少法"},{"start":490.587,"end":519.23,"text":"也有違反這個個資保護法也有違反這些刑法的妨礙秘密所以這個案子我們這個案子我們依這個三個法例來做移送來移送法判好所以你們這邊已經有在進行了有進行了移送法判好太好了那高雄呢這一件這一件經過調查的結果是沒有高雄新北那新北呢目前新北我沒有還沒有接到這個訊息還沒有接到訊息可是網路上那個警戒署你看一下連我在網路上都找得到"},{"start":520.595,"end":536.065,"text":"那是去年11月的這個事情這個部分應該這個案也是沒有違法的事證也是沒有違法這個是你們後續很快的幫忙做出讓家長安心的動作非常謝謝你們的回應我再次跟您強調你們會以違反兒少權法違反個資法違反妨害秘密做相關的處理對嗎好那我們後續如何防備這個"},{"start":544.551,"end":566.991,"text":"那對於這個部分因為學校的這個地方也是我們這個警察這個一個安全服務的這個地點我們會加長這些巡邏的這個密度那會加長這樣的一個跟學校的一個聯繫聯繫看有沒有這樣的一個情形所以他是地方派出所的派出所基層同仁要負責在門口巡嗎每天上學時間嗎應該都是會有應該會是會有但是我要幫"},{"start":570.854,"end":595.361,"text":"我要幫基層同仁就是上學跟下學放學放學放學放學的時候好那我們目前只會針對國小嗎國中高中應該最主要就是國小跟國中就是未成年所以我們可以這樣說嗎我們可以說當然基層同仁不可能天天到每一所學校門口去站崗但是我們可不可以對社會公開呼籲假設有家長"},{"start":596.081,"end":618.48,"text":"或者是路人 或者是老師發現在孩子們上學跟放學的時候有奇怪的人在門口做出奇怪的直播我們其實可以打電話到派出所或報警請求相關協助進行現場的蒐證跟處理我可以這樣公開呼籲嗎?可以 明天好 那就請您幫我們重述一遍讓我們的家長因為家長社群在週末真的是炸鍋了"},{"start":618.92,"end":645.958,"text":"如果說有這些非法收集這些拍攝的行為絕等的行為請立即打電話到110或小區的拍手來報案我們會到場來做處理好 那其實大家也會擔心國安的議題但因為時間有限我今天國安就沒有辦法再多說但是至少警政署在這一塊做出非常明快的處理我們也謝謝警政署在這邊然後也謝謝基層同仁非常非常辛苦好 謝謝"},{"start":649.682,"end":650.724,"text":"各自處 謝謝那這邊請回 請在署請回 謝謝"},{"start":660.233,"end":685.218,"text":"好 您好 各自處這邊 我們跟你討論一下其實我們之前就因為單項教練證的問題跟你們開過會 也跟法務部開過會但是因為它牽扯到各自的問題所以我今天比較多時間想要跟您討論相關法律見解目前因為運動部在九月即將掛牌而未來台灣會有一個所謂全民運動署也就是更多校園的運動它可能會延伸到社區裡面"},{"start":686.178,"end":709.427,"text":"非常多孩子们练习运动的场域也会从校园的体育队体育班到社区里面的社区俱乐部所以我们可以想见未来会有更多的教练进到社区里面为孩子提供服务跟教学但同时我们也担心可能很多非法的样态就会从学校扩散到社区里面我们提早做出预防因为确实过去有非常多的案例"},{"start":709.907,"end":727.791,"text":"在相關的討論當中我們跟你們討論就是來看下一張體育署在相關的查詢網站當中如果我今天想要去查陳培瑜這個足球教練他過往有沒有對小孩做出不法的事情不管是性侵體罰不當對待之類等等的犯罪行為體育署的網站是說這個樣態他其實是查不到的他說要請家長回到單項協會如果我去單項協會的網站上看例如說陳培瑜是曾經是足球教練"},{"start":736.773,"end":759.726,"text":"如果陳培宇有了犯罪行為陳培宇的名字就會從足球單項協會的教練證名字被下架我們認為這樣是消極的我們辦公室主張一直以來我們也跟非常多兒權團體主張教練如果他犯了相關尤其是對於小孩不當對待這些罪罰而且終局判決已經決定了他應該名字要被留在"},{"start":761.466,"end":786.954,"text":"單項協會或者是體育署的網站上讓家長知道這個人他不是只有被下架他曾經做過對孩子們傷害的行為當時體育署的說法說這有個資的問題所以我們就跟個資處這邊開了會你們的法律見解告訴我們在個資保護法16條第二款裡面增進公共利益的部分我們就可以主張使用這樣的資料所以我們看到今年高雄市政府非常有 guts"},{"start":787.634,"end":804.6,"text":"他們收到了體育署的公文在2024年7月16號他們就公告了非常多對孩子有不當對待人的名字而且是哪一項教練然後他的全名全文公告出來我認為這個是非常積極的對社區運動對於家長對於孩子的保護但是未來我不知道我們可不可以繼續主張我們認為像高雄市政府這樣做才是對的"},{"start":812.623,"end":838.042,"text":"還是要回到我的投影片的左手邊體育署認為基於保護這些教練的個資他們的這個樣態不可以被公告我想要聽聽看你們的法律見解委員就是我們先前幾次委員多次開這個協調會我們表達的意見就是說因為他是一個政府資訊那因為依照我們目前的這個司法實務見解就是說政府資訊裡面他雖然含有個人資料"},{"start":838.422,"end":858.755,"text":"那因為它是一個政府資訊公開法有一個明文規定所以會依照就是個資法十六條第一款它是屬於法律明文規定的情況那所以它所有的這個包含它的公開提供或是它的限制都會回到政府資訊公開法相關的規定那因為政資法的十八條的第一項第六款"},{"start":859.195,"end":886.72,"text":"他其實針對說如果有政府資訊的公開或提供有侵害個人隱私的話應限制公開或不予提供但是對公益有必要的話他還是可以去對外提供那至於對公益有必要跟這個個人隱私之間他到底這個公益跟私益的這個權衡這是要由這個政府資訊的保有機關也就是教育部體育署這邊他可以去做個案的權衡就是他去權衡這個公益跟私益那還是有這樣的一個"},{"start":887.8,"end":914.92,"text":"機制可以去做一個公開好所以聽起來其實他並不是只能指向某一端去解釋這件事情看起來他必須從個案來看去做權衡那聽起來我覺得體育署也好或者是各自處這邊有不同的法律見解不過我想我今天之所以公開質詢是希望我們辦公室後續在這一題我們會積極推進到時候也要拜託各自處這邊持續提供給我們法律見解跟意見然後讓我們再跟體育署溝通或者是到時候可能也會有法務部的角色"},{"start":915.48,"end":930.312,"text":"協助我們在保護兒少這一塊我們可以做得更積極如同高雄市政府所做出那個公文這樣好嗎是好謝謝主席謝謝各自處謝謝主席跟我想找朋友的話好謝謝中華電信有來對不對好拜託一下好這個是公益的事情謝謝"},{"start":932.113,"end":958.468,"text":"主席我問的都很公益謝謝主席感謝中華電信在去年前任董事長有喊出要經費加碼4成我想只是要跟您確定一下今年換了董總之後對女藍的支持還是會繼續嗎是因為我現在服務金門跟馬祖其實過往我們所謂的城鄉回饋到社區裡面去我們希望後續有更多機會WSB打完之後後續有公益列車規劃可以到更多偏鄉服務更多的孩子好不好"},{"start":959.23,"end":960.977,"text":"好 我們一起來努力促成謝謝中華電影 謝謝主席 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":684,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時44分）謝謝主席，我想先請NCC。"],["主席：麻煩NCC。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝NCC。我想今天的這個題目，我覺得要先幫人民定義一件事情，我們可以看到在相關的新聞中電信三雄齊聲否認洩漏個資，據我看相關的新聞報導，事實上在3G的年代，三大電信是不是就接受NCC的監督，認為相關業務是不得在電信公司裡面進行的？我想要請您先說明一下。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是的，因為電信業者本來就是NCC所轄管的，我們在個資法的法遵上也有依據個資法第二十七條訂有安維辦法，請他們落實這些個資維護相關事項。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，截至目前為止，這還是你們轄管的業務內容，對嗎？如果他們真的有做出疑似洩漏個資的行為，其實NCC會第一時間去進行調查，包含主席今天排的這個案子，其實當時你們已經進行調查，所以我們看到了相關的業務報告，對嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，我們已經進行調查，5月3號披露之後，5月5號和5月9號兩次找他們來做行政調查。"],["陳委員培瑜：預計什麼時候會公布相關調查報告？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們調查已經告一段落，也把相關的資料函送給相關機關看是否有違反個資請他們卓處。簡單來講這個簡訊發送的流程裡，從最源頭端的簡訊代發業者的企客、簡訊代發業者，再來三大電信公司再到一般用戶，NCC能夠管的範圍是針對三大電信這一塊，我們也做行政調查。另外，代發業者跟代發業者企客，是由相關主管機關來處理，因為一個是資訊服務業者，另一個是行銷公司，那個不在NCC作用法所能管轄的範圍內。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝，您說的非常得清楚，三大電信歸NCC管，你們已經做了相關調查，可是所謂代發業者、簡訊代理公司，或是廣告行銷商，他們相關的業務就不歸你們管轄，所以我們可不可以定義這一次，也就是主席特地排案的這個事件比較接近哪一個樣態？比較接近廣告代理商的問題，還是在三大電信這邊？請您再次說明。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就我們完成行政調查的結果，它的問題應該是出現在最上游端簡訊代發業者企客、企業用戶那邊，他們為什麼會有這些個資資料，是那一塊的部分。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這一塊其實就是國人最擔心、最有疑慮的，也就是我們可能在非常多地方消費，我們都會留下會員資料，或是像我自己的小孩，可能他的學校資料就曾經被一些補習班拿去用。過往到底民間這些商業服務公司如何使用我們每一個人的個資，其實樣態是不清楚的，可是確實如果收到相關簡訊是會讓人擔心的，剛剛王義川委員其實也有提醒這一塊。我可不可以請NCC跟我們說明，到底我們身為一般消費者，不管是哪個電信公司的門號使用者、消費者，我有沒有拒絕像這種簡訊的權利？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有。一般民眾如果要電信公司提供LBS服務，電信公司必須要問他同不同意提供他LBS服務，他同意的話，才會提供這個服務。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們有沒有在過往相關的業務當中提醒民眾，當我們在申辦電信門號時，或者當我電信門號已經使用超過一段時間，我認為這個LBS的訊息確實讓我感到困擾的時候，我可以做後續的主張，如同您剛剛說的。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有，而且他們隨時可以Opt-in和Opt-out，隨時可以去跟電信公司申請的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，如果真的像您所說的，我認為加強宣導應該很重要，至於另外一個廣告代理公司的部分，或是其他廣告代理商的部分，那個是另外一個議題，我覺得比較困擾，但是我還是要提醒NCC，可不可以舉一些例子來幫我們說明，就一般民眾的角度，什麼樣的簡訊有可能是三大電信發出來的，而什麼樣的簡訊比較像是廣告代理公司發出來的，您可不可以幫我們做科普性的說明，讓一般消費者知道今天如果收到一個簡訊，不管是政治類、非政治類，我要怎麼判斷它是來自三大電信公司的問題？或者是來自廣告代理公司的問題？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，從技術面來看，民眾所有的簡訊都是電信公司發的，但是它只是透明化的一些傳送，就是跟電信管理法第八條一樣，源頭端發送的人通常都不會是三大電信公司，除非是三大電信公司自己的促銷方案。通常都是發信者……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，例如說哪一家公司有什麼促銷方案，可能是三大電信公司用內部客戶的資料去發這個簡訊，所以您的意思是說，大部分的廣告簡訊，或是我們今天要談的政治類的簡訊，極有可能大部分應該是廣告代理公司、行銷公司、公關公司，他們不知道在什麼情況下拿到我們每一個人的個資，然後透過三大電信的管道發送出去，比較像是這樣？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，大部分情況是這樣。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，但因為這不是你們業管的嘛，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，源頭端資料蒐集是它自己要負責任，它有違反，應該是相關主管機關來處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，但是如果由三大電信這一端出去的，我覺得就是要再次拜託NCC可以再加強宣導，對於一般使用者來說，我確實是可以直接要求這些電信公司不可以用我的資料，或者說我不想收到LBS簡訊，這個是我們可以再次加強宣導跟推廣的，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：會，我們去年也有修改定型化服務契約第三十七條的規定，他們各自的宣告事項一定要告訴民眾，針對各種態樣的商業簡訊服務，民眾也有隨時選擇退出的權利。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們希望看到你們更清楚的廣告文宣。不過，我想確定一下，你們的廣告文宣費有沒有被刪？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們這一塊的費用，有些是在基金那邊，目前還可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們希望看到更多你們對於一般民眾的加強推廣，我覺得也可以減少大家收到相關簡訊的疑慮，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，我們來努力。"],["陳委員培瑜：我認為要增加很多社會溝通，除了政治議題，增加很多社會溝通絕對是必要的，好嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：好，沒問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝。接下來我要回到兒少議題，我要拜託警政署，NCC請回，謝謝。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們關心政治議題、關心政治困境，我們要關心家長所擔心的，整個周末，所有的家長社群都炸鍋了，就是在臺北、新北、高雄，好像連桃園也有，有中國直播主在國小外面拍攝引起的爭議跟擔心，我不知道警政署有沒有掌握相關進度跟資料？"],["張署長榮興：有掌握這些資料。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，可不可以說明一下？"],["張署長榮興：目前我們掌握到高雄有一件，對於這個直播主的拍攝行為，經過查證之後，這一件是沒有牽涉到拍攝學童的狀況，所以這一件沒有成案。第二案是在臺北市……"],["陳委員培瑜：等一下，你們成案的標準是有沒有拍攝到小孩的臉，是這樣嗎？"],["張署長榮興：對，就是這個案子……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以他整個直播片段你們全部都看完，一個小孩的臉都沒有拍到？"],["張署長榮興：這個案子就是他沒有對於這樣的行為……經過調查之後，沒有涉嫌違法。"],["陳委員培瑜：拜託警政署講白話文給一般民眾聽……"],["張署長榮興：就是這一件……"],["陳委員培瑜：家長在意的是，小孩的臉有沒有被拍到，然後被不當的應用？"],["張署長榮興：這一件沒有被不當應用，那第二件是有。"],["陳委員培瑜：第二件是哪一個？"],["張署長榮興：第二件是發生在臺北市的……"],["陳委員培瑜：民生國小門口嗎？"],["張署長榮興：對，民生國小這一件是有拍攝到學童相關樣態，這個樣態裡面是有違反兒童及少年權益保障法……"],["陳委員培瑜：兒少權法。"],["張署長榮興：兒少法，也違反個資保護法。"],["陳委員培瑜：個資法，好。"],["張署長榮興：也違反刑法的妨害秘密，所以這個案子……"],["陳委員培瑜：妨害秘密。"],["張署長榮興：關於這個案子，我們依這三個法律來移送法辦。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以你們這邊已經有在進行了。"],["張署長榮興：有進行了，有移送法辦。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，太好了。那高雄呢？"],["張署長榮興：這一件經過調查的結果是沒有。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，高雄沒有，那新北呢？"],["張署長榮興：對於新北，目前我沒有還沒有接到這個訊息。"],["陳委員培瑜：還沒有接到訊息？可是網路上……警政署長你看一下，連我在網路上都找得到耶！"],["張署長榮興：那是去年11月的事情，這個案子應該也是沒有違法的事證。"],["陳委員培瑜：也是沒有違法。好，你們後續很快的做出讓家長安心的動作，非常謝謝你們的回應。"],["張署長榮興：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：我再次跟您強調，你們會以違反兒少權法、違反個資法、違反妨害秘密做相關的處理，對嗎？"],["張署長榮興：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我們後續如何防備這個狀態？"],["張署長榮興：對於這個部分，因為學校也是我們警察安全維護的一個地點，我們會加強巡邏的密度，也會加強跟學校的聯繫，看有沒有這樣的情形。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以是地方派出所的基層同仁要負責在門口巡嗎？每天上學時間嗎？"],["張署長榮興：應該都會有，會有這樣的編排勤務。"],["陳委員培瑜：我要幫基層同仁……"],["張署長榮興：就是上學跟放學的時候。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，目前只會針對國小嗎？國中、高中呢？"],["張署長榮興：應該最主要就是國小跟國中，針對未成年。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我們可以這樣說嗎？當然基層同仁不可能天天到每一所學校門口去站崗，但是我們可不可以對社會公開呼籲，假設有家長或是路人、老師發現孩子們上學跟放學的時候有奇怪的人在門口做出奇怪的直播，我們其實可以打電話到派出所或報警請求相關協助，進行現場的蒐證跟處理，我可以這樣公開呼籲嗎？"],["張署長榮興：可以，沒問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那就請您幫我們重述一遍，讓我們的家長知道，因為家長社群在周末真的是炸鍋了。"],["張署長榮興：好，如果有這些非法蒐集及一些拍攝學童的行為，請立即打電話到110或轄區的派出所報案，我們會到場處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，其實大家也會擔心國安的議題，但因為時間有限，我今天就沒有辦法再針對國安多說，至少警政署在這一塊會做出非常明快的處理，我們在這邊謝謝警政署，也謝謝非常非常辛苦的基層同仁，謝謝。","接下來有請個資處，警政署請回，謝謝。"],["張署長榮興：謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：您好，個資處。我想跟你討論一下，其實我們之前就因為單項教練證的問題跟你們開過會，也跟法務部開過會，但是因為牽扯到個資的問題，所以我今天花比較多時間想要跟您討論相關法律見解。","因為運動部在9月即將掛牌，未來臺灣會有一個全民運動署，也就是更多校園運動可能會延伸到社區裡面，非常多孩子們練習運動的場域也會從校園的體育隊、體育班到社區裡面的社區俱樂部，所以我們可以想見未來會有更多的教練進到社區裡面，為孩子提供服務跟教學。但同時我們也擔心，可能很多非法的樣態會從學校擴散到社區裡面，我們提早做出預防，因為確實過去有非常多案例，在相關討論當中，我想跟你們討論，在體育署相關的查詢網站當中，如果我今天想要去查陳培瑜這個足球教練過往有沒有對小孩做出不法的事情，不管是性侵、體罰、不當對待之類等等的犯罪行為，體育署的網站其實對於這個樣態是查不到的，他們要請家長回到單項協會；如果我去單項協會的網站上看，例如陳培瑜曾經是足球教練，如果陳培瑜有了犯罪行為，陳培瑜的名字就會被足球單項協會教練證資訊中下架，我們認為這樣是消極的，我們辦公室主張，一直以來我們也跟非常多兒權團體一起主張，教練如果犯了相關罪刑，尤其是對於小孩不當對待的罪罰，而且終局判決已經決定了，他的名字應該要被留在單項協會或是體育署的網站上，讓家長知道這個人不是只有被下架，他曾經對孩子們做過傷害的行為。當時體育署的說法是，這有個資的問題，所以我們就跟個資處開了會，你們的法律見解告訴我們，在個資保護法第十六條第二款，在增進公共利益的部分，我們可以主張使用這樣的資料，所以我們看到今年高雄市政府非常有guts，他們收到了體育署的公文，在2024年7月16號就公告了非常多對孩子有不當對待的人的名字，而且是哪一項運動的教練，然後把他的全名公告出來，我認為這是非常積極的對社區運動、對於家長、對於孩子的保護，但是未來我不知道我們可不可以繼續主張？我們認為像高雄市政府這樣做才是對的。還是要回到我的投影片的左手邊，體育署認為基於保護這些教練的個資，他們的樣態不可以被公告？我想聽聽看你們的法律見解。"],["林組長裕嘉：是，如同我們先前幾次與委員多次開協調會所表達的意見，因為它是一個政府資訊，依照我們目前的司法實務見解，政府資訊裡面雖然含有個人資料，因為政府資訊公開法有一個明文規定，所以會依照個資法第十六條第一款，它是屬於法律明文規定的情況，所以所有的資訊，包含公開提供或是限制都會回到政府資訊公開法的相關規定。政資法第十八條第一項第六款是針對政府資訊的公開或提供有侵害個人隱私的話，應限制公開或不予提供，但是對公益有必要的話，還是可以對外提供。至於對公益有必要跟個人隱私之間，在公益跟私益間的權衡則是要由政府資訊的保有機關，也就是教育部體育署去做個案的權衡，由他們去權衡公益跟私益，還是有這樣的機制可以去公開。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以聽起來其實它並不是只能指向某一端去解釋這件事情，看起來它必須從個案去做權衡。"],["林組長裕嘉：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：聽起來我覺得體育署也好，或是個資處這邊有不同的法律見解，我想我今天之所以公開質詢，是希望我們辦公室後續在這一題會積極推進，到時候也要拜託個資處持續提供給我們法律見解跟意見，讓我們再跟體育署溝通，或是到時候可能也會有法務部的角色，協助我們在保護兒少這一塊可以做得更積極，如同高雄市政府所做出的那個公文，這樣好嗎？"],["林組長裕嘉：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝個資處。"],["林組長裕嘉：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：主席，再給我30秒就好了，謝謝。","中華電信有來，對不對？拜託一下，這個是公益的事情，謝謝。主席，我問的都很公益，謝謝主席。","感謝中華電信，去年前任董事長有喊出經費要加碼四成，我只是想要跟您確定一下，今年換了董總之後，對女藍的支持還是會繼續嗎？"],["林執行副總經理文智：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，因為我現在服務金門跟馬祖，其實過往我們有城鄉回饋到社區裡面去，我們希望後續有更多機會，WSBL打完之後，後續有公益列車規劃，可以到更多偏鄉服務更多的孩子，好不好？"],["林執行副總經理文智：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們一起來努力促成，謝謝。謝謝中華電信，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","報告委員會，先前預告11點處理臨時提案，後來提案人已撤回提案，作以上說明。","另外，我這邊要補充一下：因為剛剛有委員提到今天的議程怎麼沒有加入某些縣市有使用個資的問題，我想因為我們今天的議程還是限縮在簡訊的發送，至於那一塊，就看莊瑞雄委員或我這邊將來有沒有要再安排專案報告或是公聽會等等，那個就之後再看，但是它並沒有在本日的議程內，所以跟大家先說明一下剛剛委員提出的詢問。","第二個，有關今天的議題，我跟各行政機關以及中華電信的同仁報告一下，因為社會對於一些事情民眾會有質疑，我們的工作就是把質疑帶到這裡跟大家詢問，當然，如果經過政府部門或是三大業者的說明之後，我們可以得到滿意的答案或人民可以釋疑的話，這就是我們今天舉辦這一場會議目的所在，並不是今天一定要追究誰的責任或怎麼樣，但我們要釐清。我也很認同剛剛吳思瑤委員說的，他說到底是商業使用或是政治使用，這個將來也是可以去釐清，釐清之後，我們可以做規定上的修正或是法律上的修正，因為當初的訂定比較沒有那麼明確，所以當民眾在中華電信的定型化契約上簽名的時候，他以為是商務使用，他授權給你商務使用，但是後來怎麼會收到一些政治的訊息，有一些人就會不滿，這一塊是不是我們可以當作將來修法或修改契約時的一個依據？這就是我們今天的目的，而不是說在這裡互相政治攻擊，或說國民黨以前也幹過、民進黨以前也幹過，我覺得這反而不是今天會議的主軸。","我在這邊跟各位報告一下，因為我們都希望國家更好，希望人民不要擔心個資被使用，所以今天大家來集思廣益，然後去做將來的一些修正，如果今天這個被認定是政治使用，而且已經超過當初中華電信的定型化契約範圍的話，那定型化契約是不是可以寫得更明確一點或是可以排除掉什麼？我知道NCC是管三大業者，三大業者又有企業的社會責任去管那些簡訊代發的公司，我們只是希望利用今天的時間把大家聚集在一起，把一些問題點出來，大家一起討論，就這樣，我想立法院應該是這樣，而不是罵來罵去或政治攻擊。謝謝各位。","下一位請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","張啓楷","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","羅智強","王鴻薇","葉元之","林倩綺"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、內\n政部警政署署長、中央選舉委員會、數位發展部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有\n限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「民眾反應收到罷免連署簡訊，顯非商業廣告目的利用，質疑個資\n洩漏而侵害人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145202_00002"}}},{"id":"161545","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161545","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f071fc579c98980a2f28de2cce2b28366acb2fe453f4508dd4a5ee903531ddfe835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:45:36 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我想請陳部長來 請部長部長早安我想先請問您一個比較輕鬆的問題這個蚵仔煎跟蚵仔麵線你比較喜歡哪一個還是都喜歡我經常是蚵仔麵線配蚵仔煎"},{"start":30.234,"end":34.076,"text":"這個很棒的組合我自己也非常非常喜歡吃蚵仔煎跟蚵仔米騷就是你我從小吃到大的味道那背後靠的其實就是無數的這個科農撐起來的那接下來我想要請教部長您知道我們台灣整個牡蠣產業關係到多少人的生計嗎"},{"start":52.659,"end":67.814,"text":"我知道現在目前大概有兩千多戶嘛那一戶如果用四個人去算那光養殖區大概就有八千八千應該不止八千多人啊還有那個他的一個產業鏈那個至少大概一萬五到兩萬以上"},{"start":72.458,"end":86.129,"text":"可能本席這邊的資料更多一點可能有2萬至4萬左右後面還有很多請教對那他們的平均年齡目前本席拿到的資料是55歲所以就是這2至4萬人每年創造41億的產值那現在台灣的養科產業卻面臨非常嚴重的一個挑戰就是越南進口牡蠣的問題這個部分部長了解嗎"},{"start":99.915,"end":109.187,"text":"我了解就是從108年開始越南的牡蠣大概開始從2000噸到去年大概是69000多噸是那這段時間剛好2000噸到69000多噸6000進口啦進口對然後最主要是因為"},{"start":115.775,"end":135.153,"text":"我們這幾年來養蚵的剛好遇到一些天然災害所以我們的產量有降低那整體的需求大概是兩萬到兩萬兩千噸左右這個是我們的消費需求所以它有一些會越南的戶我當然理解但是現在本席比較擔心的是就是這個"},{"start":136.374,"end":139.475,"text":"蚵仔覆苗的問題因為沒有苗哪有蚵那當然你說如果氣節調節這個我們都可以理解但是呢我們現在台灣的蚵苗啊現在大部分包括九成喔都是靠海放竹架看老天爺的臉色對啊就雲林嘉義我們全部都是"},{"start":159.782,"end":174.019,"text":"自然覆苗那這個部分呢就等於是會拉低我們的競爭力我們現在台灣的人工覆苗的技術如何呢跟委員報告現在人工覆苗技術在我們水事所的開發之下現在已經基本上成功"},{"start":174.56,"end":190.093,"text":"那現在問題就是價格的問題然後水市所這邊有雲林的養科的相關的協會有進駐然後他們現在的量技術也學到了所以我在想就是說他現在目前大概是從40塊已經降到29塊了"},{"start":192.775,"end":198.661,"text":"這就是本席想要講的部長很瞭解這個狀況也掌握這個重點重點就在於價錢中國大陸跟越南他們的人工覆苗價格成本比我們低因為他們量多"},{"start":209.171,"end":224.244,"text":"所以他們的競爭力就比我們好那我們台灣不是沒有這個技術我們水市所的技術也很高但是就是成本太高這一點部長有什麼因應的辦法嗎這個部分我正在跟漁業署跟水市所協調"},{"start":225.845,"end":244.023,"text":"我們的苗一定是後端的農民、漁民要用所以我可能在不管是雲林、嘉峪或台南我們先找一些釋放區讓他們用人工的苗去培育如果說釋放區不錯的時候漁民就會跟上"},{"start":244.804,"end":257.129,"text":"所以這個部分如果說我們有找到相關的區位的時候我前端的那些人工養殖的苗我可能做一些小部分的這些加差的一個協助我們不要用補助我們用協助這樣子的話可能"},{"start":260.47,"end":265.192,"text":"讓這個示範區能夠順利的養成那農民後面才會跟進對這就是本席想要建議給部長的就是說我們要趕快跟進我們要趕快把鼓勵農民人工覆苗因為這個價格如果降低然後覆苗這個率"},{"start":278.476,"end":281.978,"text":"可以說是提高的話那農民他的收入也會更穩定而且我們也會減少對於越南這個進口牡蠣的需求這一點我也是希望部長可以幫忙因為我們其實不是沒有產池不是沒有技術更不是沒有市場所以現在最最需要的就是部長跟署長挺身而出幫他們一把"},{"start":304.589,"end":311.634,"text":"讓他們這個產業能夠迎接下一個世代的挑戰這一點拜託部長會 我們會努力來做那我們努力保持住這個曾經被票選為最能代表台灣小吃的這個蚵仔煎希望它可以繼續成為我們記憶中最台灣的這個味道那另外本席想要問的就是剛才好多位委員都在講"},{"start":328.627,"end":338.194,"text":"有關於這個我們台灣的糧食安全 糧食自主希望說這個糧食自主 糧食安全絕對不能拱手送出絕對不能夠農產品零關稅進口尤其是稻米部長這一點是不是可以請您給我一個說明說現在我們談判的狀況"},{"start":348.061,"end":375.596,"text":"我之前已經說過了就是在整個農業談判過程中我們一定是尋求雙贏的前提那就農業部來講我們一定會確保糧食安全那糧食安全裡面一個非常重要的品項就是稻米所以稻米的部分我想我們會堅守我們農業部的立場就是說我們會保護因為它是糧食安全必要的一個品項然後我們也會讓產業的永續發展所以我們才會有糧食產業的升級方案"},{"start":375.976,"end":381.639,"text":"部長我舉一個例子上個禮拜日本的首相石破茂接受採訪的時候他就明確表達說絕對不會因為汽車而犧牲他們日本的農業那我也希望說部長也跟我們的賴總統建言說絕對不能犧牲農業也絕對不能零關稅進口這一點部長可以幫助農民過嗎我們農業部本身的態度非常明確那院長也講到農民優先"},{"start":404.352,"end":417.922,"text":"總統也講不會放棄任何一個產業然後也特別關心我們的糧食的安全所以這個部分我想我們在談判過程中一定會用我們保護我們的農民的權益為前提之下去尋求雙贏"},{"start":419.383,"end":430.692,"text":"本席對您是有很深的期待既然您對您的這個方案有那麼多的堅持那最後我們其實是有取得共識就是有一個大家說你說漲1.5塊然後可以怎麼樣三年可以怎麼樣我們都接受了"},{"start":435.336,"end":451.087,"text":"但是你一定要用實際的行動去證明說這個方案有效而且絕對不能夠讓步假設你還零關稅進口的話我們這些方案我們兩個想的再美好都抵不過美國米便宜的美國米"},{"start":452.448,"end":467.53,"text":"我跟委員說明喔總統當時講零關稅談起不是說我們農產品都是零關稅這個我所了解我們如果零關稅我們完全沒有機會耶所以我們從來沒有在任職的談判過程中從來沒有用這種思維去處理的"},{"start":467.85,"end":486.446,"text":"是 所以拜託您一定要堅守住這個防線我想我們努力上週五那個農民自主行動聯盟有來到立法院來訴求來抗議他們希望說絕對不能農產品零關稅進口尤其是稻米那他們也有一個蠻務實的建議就是說在談判的過程當中可以納入農民團體 消費者團體食安跟農政學者的民間代表"},{"start":494.414,"end":501.645,"text":"讓人民也可以透過制度參與重大的農業談判那我想這也非常的合理不曉得部長願不願意在談判過程納入他們的聲音"},{"start":505.27,"end":525.224,"text":"我想農民產業的意見農業部隨時在溝通但是談判小組有談判小組的策略因為談判小組本身的這些策略其實我們的任何的這些策略的方案都會根據對方的一些挑戰或是一些需求來做動態的調整"},{"start":526.565,"end":553.837,"text":"所以農民的需求我們隨時掌握那這樣子本席是不是也請部長是不是也能夠主動來關心這些農民團體的這個聲音既然是您來召開吧 您來召開吧他們聚集起來看他們到底是需求什麼因為我知道您也是很樂意下鄉的嘛尤其今天如果解凍案完成多了這33億我想你有很多可能現在握在整個掌控在布裡面的大家就可以趕快去幫助這些農漁民了好不好"},{"start":556.118,"end":558.501,"text":"我們會努力去跟農民做溝通好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":499,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（10時45分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長早安。我先請問您一個比較輕鬆的問題，蚵仔煎跟蚵仔麵線，你比較喜歡哪一個？還是都喜歡？"],["陳部長駿季：我經常是蚵仔麵線配蚵仔煎。"],["張委員嘉郡：這是個很棒的組合。"],["陳部長駿季：對啊！夜市都這樣吃，夜市都這樣吃啊！"],["張委員嘉郡：對，對，我自己也非常喜歡吃蚵仔煎跟蚵仔麵線，這是你我從小吃到大的味道，背後靠的其實就是無數的蚵農撐起來的。接下來我想要請教部長，您知道我們臺灣整個牡蠣產業關係到多少人的生計嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我知道目前大概有兩千多戶，一戶如果用4個人計算，光養殖區大概就有八千……應該不只……"],["張委員嘉郡：不只，我目前……"],["陳部長駿季：八千多，還有牠的產業鏈，那個至少1萬5到2萬以上。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，本席這邊的資料更多一點，可能有2萬至4萬左右……"],["陳部長駿季：後面還有很多行銷……"],["張委員嘉郡：對，對，目前他們的平均年齡，本席拿到的資料是55歲，就是這2萬至4萬人每年創造41億產值，但現在臺灣的養蚵產業卻面臨非常嚴重的挑戰，就是越南進口牡蠣的問題，這個部分部長了解嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我所了解的是從108年開始，越南牡蠣進口量大概從2,000噸到去年的六萬九千多噸，這段時間剛好……"],["張委員嘉郡：2,000噸到六萬九千多噸？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，6,000噸，進口啦！"],["張委員嘉郡：進口，對。"],["陳部長駿季：最主要是因為這幾年養蚵業剛好遇到一些天然災害，所以產量有降低，整體需求大概是2萬到2萬2,000噸左右，這是我們的消費需求，所以有一些……"],["張委員嘉郡：互補。"],["陳部長駿季：越南的……"],["張委員嘉郡：這我當然理解，但現在本席比較擔心的是蚵仔附苗的問題，因為沒有苗哪有蚵，當然如果是季節調節，這個我們都可以理解，但是現在臺灣的蚵苗，大概九成都是靠海放竹架看老天爺臉色……"],["陳部長駿季：都是雲林供應的。"],["張委員嘉郡：對啊！就雲林、嘉義，我們全部都是……"],["陳部長駿季：天然附苗。"],["張委員嘉郡：自然附苗，但這個部分等於會拉低我們的競爭力，請問現在臺灣的人工附苗技術如何呢？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，現在的人工附苗技術，在我們水試所的開發之下，基本上已經成功，問題是在於價格，目前水試所有雲林養蚵的相關協會進駐，相關技術他們也學到了，所以目前大概已經從40塊降到29塊，那……"],["張委員嘉郡：這就是本席想要講的，部長很了解狀況，也掌握相關重點，重點就在於價錢……"],["陳部長駿季：價格的問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：中國大陸和越南的人工附苗價格成本比我們低……"],["陳部長駿季：因為他們量多。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以他們的競爭力比我們好，我們臺灣不是沒有這個技術，我們水試所的技術也很高，但就是成本太高，這一點部長有什麼因應辦法嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分我正在跟漁業署和水試所協調，因為我們的苗一定是後端的農民、漁民使用，所以我們可能會在雲林、嘉義或臺南先找一些示範區，讓他們用人工的苗去培育，如果示範區做的不錯，漁民就會跟上，這個部分，如果我們有找到相關區位，前端的那些人工養殖的苗可能會做一些小部分的價差協助……"],["張委員嘉郡：補助。"],["陳部長駿季：我們不用補助，我們用協助，這樣的話，就可能讓這個示範區能夠順利養成，後面農民才會跟進。"],["張委員嘉郡：對，這就是本席想要建議部長的，我們要趕快跟進，鼓勵農民人工附苗，因為如果價格可以降低，附苗率可以提高，那麼農民的收入也會更穩定，而且也能減少對越南進口牡蠣的需求，這一點我希望部長可以幫忙，因為我們不是沒有產值、沒有技術，更不是沒有市場，所以現在最需要的，就是部長和署長挺身而出幫他們一把，讓他們這個產業能夠迎接下一個世代的挑戰，這一點要拜託部長。"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們會努力來做。"],["張委員嘉郡：那我們努力保持住這個曾經被票選為最能代表臺灣小吃的蚵仔煎，希望它可以繼續成為我們記憶中最臺灣的味道。","另外，剛才好多位委員提到有關於臺灣糧食安全、糧食自主的問題，希望糧食自主、糧食安全絕對不能拱手送出，絕對不能讓農產品零關稅進口，尤其是稻米，部長，針對這一點，是不是可以請您說明目前談判的狀況？"],["陳部長駿季：我之前已經說過了，在整個農業談判過程中，我們一定是尋求雙贏的前提，就農業部來講，我們一定會確保糧食安全，而糧食安全裡面一個非常重要的品項就是稻米，所以稻米的部分，我們會……"],["張委員嘉郡：22萬戶的稻農……"],["陳部長駿季：我們會堅守農業部的立場予以保護，因為它是糧食安全必要的一個品項，然後我們也希望產業能夠永續發展，所以我們才會有糧食產業升級方案，這個部分我們一定會捍衛。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，我舉一個例子，上個禮拜日本首相石破茂接受採訪時明確表示，絕對不會因為汽車而犧牲日本的農業。我希望部長也可以向賴總統建言，絕對不能犧牲農業，也絕對不能零關稅進口，這一點部長可以幫助農民嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：農業部的態度非常明確，院長也講過農民優先，然後總統也提到不會放棄任何一個產業，也特別關心我們的糧食安全，所以我們在談判過程中，一定會在保護農民權益的前提之下尋求雙贏。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席對您有很深的期待，既然您對您的方案有那麼多堅持，最後我們其實是有取得共識，就是你說漲1.5塊可以怎麼樣，然後三年可以怎麼樣等等，這些我們都接受，但是你一定要用實際行動證明這個方案有效，而且絕對不能讓步，假設還是零關稅進口的話，那麼這些方案我們兩個想得再美好，都抵不過便宜的美國米。"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員說明，總統當初講零關稅談起，不是說農產品都是零關稅，我所了解的……"],["張委員嘉郡：如果零關稅，我們是完全沒有機會耶！"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們在任何談判過程中，從來沒有用這種思維去處理的。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，拜託您一定要堅守住這個防線。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會努力。"],["張委員嘉郡：上周五農民自主行動聯盟來立法院訴求、抗議，希望絕對不能農產品零關稅進口，尤其是稻米，他們也有一個蠻務實的建議，就是在談判的過程當中，可以納入農民團體、消費者團體、食安跟農政學者的民間代表，讓人民也可以透過制度參與重大的農業談判，我想這也非常的合理，不曉得部長願不願意在談判過程納入他們的聲音？"],["陳部長駿季：我想農民、產業的意見，農業部隨時在溝通，但是談判小組有談判小組的策略，因為談判小組本身的這些策略，其實我們任何的策略方案，都會根據對方的一些挑戰或是一些需求來做動態的調整，所以農民的需求，我們隨時掌握。"],["張委員嘉郡：這樣子，本席是不是請部長也能夠主動來關心這些農民團體的聲音？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們隨時在……"],["張委員嘉郡：您來召開吧？您來召開，把他們聚集起來，看他們到底是需求什麼，因為我知道您也是很樂意下鄉的，尤其今天如果解凍案完成，多了這33億，我想你有很多可能現在整個掌控在部裡面的，大家就可以趕快去幫助這些農漁民了，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會努力去跟農民做溝通。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張嘉郡委員。","下一位請謝衣鳯委員。我先宣告：陳超明委員後，我們休息5分鐘，因為已經開很久了。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-13","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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過去的人依照這個標準 如果以我的標準 我會辦不是啦 我們一樣一樣來啦不要在那邊挪來挪去的啦第一個 規範上他不應該辦特殊查核他只是 就是基本上要辦一般查核對不起 規範上他要不要辦特殊查核 奇怪我的問題有這麼難理解嗎我在問你特殊查核 你一直在跟我扯一般查核"},{"start":75.492,"end":93.517,"text":"我的問題有這麼難理解嗎對不起我再說一次規範上他要不要做特殊查核規範上如果按照既有的規定是不必那你為什麼上次說要我認為他接觸的業務是要所以現在怎麼辦那就是由政風去辦理按照規定來辦理"},{"start":94.537,"end":106.934,"text":"按照什麼規定來辦 你現在規範上就不用辦特殊查核啊如果以他接觸的事物啊 我認為是要對嘛 現在規範上就不用辦特殊查核啊我有說錯嗎這不是你們上次外交部的同仁的回答嗎"},{"start":112.608,"end":137.416,"text":"我是部長我如果去任命這樣的一個人我是認為他所接觸的業務是需要特殊查核但是依照當時的規定到現在還是這個規定是沒有需要特殊查核到現在還是這個規定我們現在就是必須要改革改好了沒有現在行政院整體都在針對這樣還需要多久以及要任命的沒有關係啦還需要多久"},{"start":137.796,"end":153.157,"text":"改好了沒有 還需要多久這行政院會有整體的行政院整體的規劃我們大家都很了解啦一個基本的事實研議了六年 七年 八年例子不生沒舉啦現在出了一個這麼大的洞那你現在說"},{"start":154.605,"end":182.311,"text":"追下大白了嘛規範上不需要辦特殊查核但身為部長你不贊成嘛你認為應該要辦特殊查核嗎事後來看啦行政院現在正在進行作業當中還要作業多久不知道行政院在辦理中所以行政院要進行多久你也不知道沒關係嘛繼續拖嘛這不是很重要的事嗎應該辦特殊查核的事情沒有辦特殊查核現在變共諜啦"},{"start":184.085,"end":193.241,"text":"行政院說要檢討這件事情發生到現在多久啦檢討到今天還在檢討部長你對於行政院的效率滿意嗎"},{"start":194.892,"end":223.358,"text":"我當然尊重行政院他綜合因為他那麼多的部會他在辦理但對外交部我們的政風調查報告已經完成我認為如果實質的判定他接觸的業務是需要查核啦但是當時在最早任命的時候因為還不知道他會接觸什麼業務嘛所以那個時候跟在吳釗燮還旁邊還不知道他會接觸什麼業務在外交部部長辦公室裡面收機密文件還不知道他會接觸什麼業務"},{"start":225.024,"end":225.709,"text":"所以是規範有問題還是吳釗燮有問題"},{"start":228.936,"end":249.066,"text":"我想規範就是說是死的嘛可是這個人的任命因為他是用所謂一等之役那這樣的聘用是可以不用辦特殊查只要辦一般查規範上面這種人不用辦特殊查的現在結果來看嫌有不足是嘛所以我個人認為如果接駐業務的職職你到現在都還在研議嘛你沒有說錯嗎我們政風已經調查完畢而且對於改進的應該要去做一些改進啦"},{"start":258.271,"end":284.007,"text":"沒有關係啦 我們拭目以待嘛這麼重要的事情我們拭目以待嘛看卓榮泰要拖多久嘛來 第二題我去年有問你卡貝的事情喔蠻有趣的啦你們外交部的業務報告從過去比較常用的詞叫做價值外交到這一次 卓榮泰新的施政報告出現一個新的名詞叫總和外交"},{"start":285.538,"end":296.797,"text":"從價值外交啊 到總和外交啊總和外交有包括金錢外交嗎沒有沒有嘛 好那我的問題還是一樣我們會不會幫其他國家繳卡貝的股款"},{"start":298.089,"end":313.181,"text":"我們希望說我們已經在一些國際組織包括這些金融系統的角色上善用花錢繳我們自己的股款我作為民意代表我OK啊我支持啊花台灣納稅的錢繳台灣的股款我OK我現在的問題一模一樣花台灣納稅的錢去幫外國繳股款外交部同不同意"},{"start":323.443,"end":337.116,"text":"我想我們一定是按照規定來辦理那我們必須要去善用包括咖啡 包括亞銀 包括歐銀同意 沒錯我是認為要去好好的發揮我們在這裡面的角色所以我們要確保我們的影響力"},{"start":340.229,"end":361.406,"text":"所以要確保影響力的方式是幫其他外國繳股款嗎是嗎一定基於我們國家的利益在做整體的考慮跟佈局所以你還是沒有答案嗎我想有機會我會跟委員詳細說明在總和外交上這一些政策工序是很重要的總和外交不包括金錢外交但是包括幫其他國家繳股款是這樣嗎"},{"start":364.023,"end":383.129,"text":"總和外交不包括金錢外交但是包括幫其他國家繳股款是這樣嗎對 就是去發揮我們的影響力確保後果是有利於國家利益我明確的跟部長講啦這件事情上面我們有價值立場的不同我表達我的立場你只要清楚表達外交部的立場就好了"},{"start":383.905,"end":410.851,"text":"我們的價值立場不同我支持民主 我支持價值外交但是 拿台灣人的錢去繳 幫其他國家繳股款對不起啊 我不懂 這個是什麼外交我跟委員說明嘛 比如說我們的總和外交 經濟外交我們過去是援助 現在加強投資那怎麼樣善用我們在國際市場銀行你要去外國投資是一回事啊去外國投資 那東西還是我們的啦"},{"start":411.803,"end":433.153,"text":"你要拿台灣人的錢去做婦女的父權去照顧當地貧窮的小孩讓他們受教育從普世價值來講我都贊成但是你拿台灣人的錢去幫其他國家繳股款這是哪門子的外交啊這不是金錢外交什麼是金錢外交"},{"start":434.213,"end":452.085,"text":"這不是啦 這個我們在裡面有骨折 我們可以善用來融融計畫你說這絕對不是金錢外交嘛但我就認為這就是金錢外交我做部長任內 我不會用金錢外交因為我長期 你對我也了解啦你不會做金錢外交 但是你會拿台灣獎罪人的錢去幫人家繳股款"},{"start":452.865,"end":477.153,"text":"任何的方式只要有助於我們國家的利益包括拿台灣的錢去幫人家繳股款不是 那個都是手段那個目的是為了要來捍衛我們外交上面那這個籠幫計畫跟以前只是在繳繳不繳是兩回事啦謝謝委員的指導我們會善用每一筆預算包括去幫國家其他"},{"start":478.073,"end":506.81,"text":"繳股款不管用什麼方法合法的然後我們用大大聲聲這樣講跟國際的合作作為立法委員我們需要讓人民知道錢到哪裡去了嘛我有說錯嗎所以我才具體的問你嘛是不是要拿去幫其他國家繳股款是就是嘛你確定了這個事實以後確定了這個事實要怎麼評價每一個人心裡都有一把尺啊是我同意委員講的目的啦一定要達到不然的話這會被人家批評"},{"start":507.773,"end":509.48,"text":"謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":453,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時45分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，上次見面的時候，我問你何仁傑的事情，他是不是該辦特殊查核而沒有辦？你跟我說「是」，然後你說政風室會回去處理，一個禮拜會有結果，結果下一次在外交國防委員會的時候，那個時候你應該是有要公沒有來，結果真相大白，你們外交部翻供說何仁傑本來就不用辦特殊查核，部長。"],["林部長佳龍：基本上，規定是要辦一般查核，但他所接觸的業務應該辦特殊查核。"],["黃委員國昌：但沒有辦嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：這是過去嘛！過去是依照當時的標準，如果以我的標準，我會辦啦！"],["黃委員國昌：不是，我們一樣一樣來啦！不要在那邊挪來挪去的。第一個，規範上他應不應該辦特殊查核？"],["林部長佳龍：基本上他要辦一般查核。"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，規範上他要不要辦特殊查核？奇怪！我的問題有這麼難理解嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：以他的職務……"],["黃委員國昌：我在問你特殊查核，你一直在跟我扯一般查核。"],["林部長佳龍：我們的……"],["黃委員國昌：我的問題有這麼難理解嗎？對不起，我再說一次，規範上他要不要做特殊查核？"],["林部長佳龍：規範上如果按照既有的規定是不必。"],["黃委員國昌：你為什麼上次說要？"],["林部長佳龍：我認為他接觸的業務是要。"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在怎麼辦？"],["林部長佳龍：就是由政風單位按照規定來辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：按照什麼規定來辦理？現在規範上就不用辦特殊查核啊！"],["林部長佳龍：我以他接觸的事務，我認為是要。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！現在規範上就不用辦特殊查核。"],["林部長佳龍：可是按照規定他不用，如果這個規定如果不足……"],["黃委員國昌：我有說錯嗎？這不是你們上次外交部同仁的回答嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我是部長，如果要去任命這樣的一個人，我是認為他所接觸的業務是需要特殊查核，但是依照當時的規定，到現在還是這個規定，是沒有需要特殊查核。"],["黃委員國昌：到現在還是這個規定？"],["林部長佳龍：我們現在就是必須要改革。"],["黃委員國昌：改好了沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：現在行政院整體都在針對這樣的……"],["黃委員國昌：這還需要多久？"],["林部長佳龍：以機要任命的……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！還需要多久？改好了沒有？還需要多久？"],["林部長佳龍：這行政院會有整體的規劃，會成立一個跨部會小組。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院整體的規劃，我們大家都很了解啦！一個基本的事實，研議了6年、7年、8年，例子不勝枚舉啦！現在出了一個這麼大的洞，你現在說……真相大白了，規範上必須要辦特殊查核，但身為部長，你不贊成嘛！你認為應該要辦特殊查核。"],["林部長佳龍：事後來看，以我的標準。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院現在正在進行作業當中，還要作業多久？不知道？"],["林部長佳龍：行政院在辦理中，我們……"],["黃委員國昌：所以行政院要進行多久，你也不知道？沒關係嘛！繼續拖，這不是很重要的事嗎？應該辦特殊查核的事情沒有辦特殊查核，現在變共諜啦！行政院說要檢討，這件事情發生到現在多久了，檢討到今天還在檢討，部長對於行政院的效率滿意嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我當然尊重行政院，因為他們要綜合那麼多的部會，但我們外交部的政風調查報告已經完成，我們認為如果實質的判定，他接觸的業務是需要查核的，但是當時在最早任命的時候，因為還不知道他會接觸什麼業務，所以那個時候的時任部長……"],["黃委員國昌：跟在吳釗燮旁邊，還不知道他會接觸什麼業務？在外交部部長辦公室裡面收機密文件，還不知道他會接觸什麼業務？所以是規範有問題，還是吳釗燮有問題？"],["林部長佳龍：規範是死的，可是這個人的任命，因為他是用所謂一等諮議，這樣的聘用方式是可以不用辦特殊查核，只要辦一般查核。"],["黃委員國昌：規範上就是有人不用辦特殊查核。"],["林部長佳龍：現在以結果來看，顯有不足。所以我個人認為，如果以接觸業務的實質……"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！所以我才問你要搞多久嘛！你到現在都還在研議，我有說錯嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們政風已經調查完畢，而且應該要去做一些改進啦！"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我們拭目以待嘛！這麼重要的事情，我們拭目以待嘛！看卓榮泰要拖多久？第二個，我去年有問你CABEI的事情，蠻有趣的啦！你們外交部的業務報告，從過去比較常用的詞叫價值外交，到這次卓榮泰新的施政報告出現新的名詞叫總合外交，從價值外交到總合外交，總合外交有包括金錢外交嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有嘛！好，我的問題還是一樣，我們會不會幫其他國家繳CABEI的股款？"],["林部長佳龍：我們已經在一些國際組織包括這一些金融機構的角色，要善用……"],["黃委員國昌：是，這我了解，我們花錢繳我們自己的股款，我作為民意代表，我OK啦！我支持啦！花臺灣納稅人的錢繳臺灣的股款，我OK，我現在的問題一模一樣，花臺灣納稅人的錢去幫外國繳股款，外交部同不同意？"],["林部長佳龍：我們一定是按照規定來辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["林部長佳龍：我們必須要去善用，包括CABEI、亞銀、歐銀、美銀……"],["黃委員國昌：沒錯。"],["林部長佳龍：我是認為要去好好發揮我們在這裡面的角色。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我們要不要幫外國繳股款？"],["林部長佳龍：我們要確保我們的影響力。"],["黃委員國昌：所以要確保影響力的方式是要幫其他國家繳股款嗎？是嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我們一定基於我們國家的利益，再做整體的考慮及布局。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你還是沒有答案？"],["林部長佳龍：有機會我會跟委員詳細說明，在總合外交上，這一些政策工具是很重要，不代表過去是沒用，我不會把它拿來用。"],["黃委員國昌：總合外交不包括金錢外交，但是包括幫其他國家繳股款是這樣嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對，就是去發揮我們的影響力。"],["黃委員國昌：對喔？"],["林部長佳龍：確保後果是有利於國家利益。"],["黃委員國昌：我明確的跟部長講，這件事情上面，我們有價值立場的不同，我表達我的立場，你只要清楚表達外交部的立場就好了，我們的價值立場不同，我支持民主，我支持價值外交，但是拿臺灣人的錢去幫其他國家繳股款，對不起啦！我不懂這個是什麼外交。"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員說明，比如我們總合外交有經濟外交，我們過去是援助，現在是加強投資，怎麼樣善用我們在國際組織的銀行……"],["黃委員國昌：先等一下，你要去外國投資是一回事啦！去外國投資的東西還是我們的，你們要拿臺灣人的錢去做婦女的婦權，去照顧當地貧窮的小孩，讓他們受教育，從普世價值來講，我都贊成，但是你們拿臺灣人的錢去幫其他國家繳股款，這是哪門子的外交啊！這不是金錢外交什麼是金錢外交。"],["林部長佳龍：這不是啦！我們這裡面有股權，我們可以善用榮邦計畫。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係嘛！你就繼續堅持你的說法，說這絕對不是金錢外交嘛！但我就認為這就是金錢外交。"],["林部長佳龍：我做部長任內是不會用金錢外交，因為我長期……"],["黃委員國昌：對。"],["林部長佳龍：你對我也了解，我一定是以國家的外交利益。"],["黃委員國昌：你不會做金錢外交，但是你會拿臺灣人民的納稅錢去幫人家繳股款，我有說錯嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：任何的方式只要有助於我們國家的利益，我們都應該要去努力。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！包括拿臺灣人的錢去幫人家繳股款。"],["林部長佳龍：不是，那個都是手段，目的是為了要來捍衛我們外交上面，而這個榮邦計畫跟以前只是在繳，繳不繳是兩回事啦！謝謝委員的指導，我們會善用每一筆預算。"],["黃委員國昌：包括去幫其他國家繳股款。"],["林部長佳龍：不管用什麼方法，合法的，然後我們用這些跟國際間的合作，包括跟……"],["黃委員國昌：就大大聲聲這樣講嘛！作為立法委員，我們需要讓人民知道錢到哪裡去了嘛！我有說錯嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對，所以怎麼去……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我才具體的問你，是不是要拿去幫其他國家繳股款？是就是嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：任何不管是不是……"],["黃委員國昌：確定了這個事實以後，確定了這個事實要怎麼評價？每個人心裡都有一把尺啦！"],["林部長佳龍：是，我同意委員講的，目的一定要達到，不然這會被人家批評，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：好，OK。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員質詢。","接下來由楊瓊瓔委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-15","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","王定宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅美玲","林憶君","王鴻薇","陳永康"],"page_start":319,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等48案","agenda_id":"1145001_00014"}}},{"id":"161543","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161543","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f0b2d8763c27bd0c2728de2cce2b28366acb2fe453f4508dd430a324e446e41dda5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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委員好最近花蓮台東"},{"start":27.185,"end":53.685,"text":"因為氣候異常很多的農作物受到這個今年很多地分包括花東地區包括從台東以南其實都有陸陸續續有些災情對對也謝謝農業部農糧署相關的單位也去特別做天然災害的這個部分的一個補助那我看"},{"start":55.256,"end":78.93,"text":"也特別提到這個還沒有進行的也請這個農業部農糧署那個來協助花蓮西瓜這個也是一樣受到氣候變遷的影響這個相關的西瓜這個摘損很慘重這個本席也特別新聞給農業部針對這個西瓜因為氣候異常這個"},{"start":84.895,"end":106.734,"text":"它的瓜藤提早壞死,然後相關的劣果也都產生,所以這個部分也能夠實際的去調查、去了解當然包括這個文旦也是一樣文旦也因為有這樣的相關的這些氣候異常,也有這樣的一個"},{"start":108.927,"end":136.247,"text":"他的那個花還在開花期間就提早掉落這樣的問題是不是可以請我跟委員報告包括西瓜包括你剛才說的那個柚子文旦的部分其實我們東部的那個農糧署東部東區的分署還有我們的花蓮改良廠其實都持續的在觀察重要的品項那以西瓜來講如果說其實它是一個病害"},{"start":137.528,"end":162.188,"text":"應該是病害的話我們就希望說他能夠做早期的這些噴藥的管理那如果是真的天然災害所影響的話我想我們會根據相關的程序來公告不過現在還在判斷看起來是應該是因為不同的區位所以我們會比較普遍的去觀察好就麻煩這個農業部還有農糧署好另外一個議題跟這個"},{"start":166.414,"end":179.605,"text":"防疫署有關係這個度物傳染病防治條例第34條規定因施檢疫物之輸入人或其代理人"},{"start":180.543,"end":208.965,"text":"因施檢疫務到達這個相關公告的這些港站子就是海關嘛就是說這個通常都是機場比較多因向這個輸入因向輸出入動物檢疫機關申請檢疫要申請檢疫這事過去人工的時候都比較沒有問題現在AI電子化的時代"},{"start":210.897,"end":231.148,"text":"這個財政部的公務署這個都會是用這個電子系統電子系統現在很重要的這個第一計劃因私檢疫物資輸入人或其代理人這個其就是輸入人的代理人"},{"start":232.54,"end":256.637,"text":"沒有錯吧其代理人就是輸入人的代理人嘛沒有錯那因為電子化時代就會常常會有這個冒名頂替的這種狀況這個輸入人是被冒名的經過這個關屋署去查其實這個我們農業部的相關單位"},{"start":261.872,"end":287.199,"text":"防疫署也去查也確實被報輸入人被冒名頂替所以相關的這些然後你們就去罰這個代理人輸入人既然是被冒名頂替就沒有所謂的代理人就會產生這個聯動的話所以最新的判決台北高等行政法院在今年的4月11號的一個判決"},{"start":291.042,"end":316.869,"text":"此為實名認證系統未能防止冒用他人名義註冊之弱動所致啊這個很明確了啊關務署的這個系統確實被有這樣的一個下機檢討的地方所以啊這個農業部在處理這樣的案子的時候也必須考量到既然沒有輸入人當然沒有什麼代理人的"},{"start":317.862,"end":346.012,"text":"所以這個部分是一個通案的去檢討這個部分好不好謝謝委員的提醒那雖然說公務組這樣的一個有一個案例在那邊那農業部的部分我想我們會來更積極的對謝謝委員的提醒好不好好這個上次有跟部長還有那個林業署也提到現在這個台灣黑熊棲息範圍"},{"start":348.467,"end":359.093,"text":"這個已經跟人類的活動奇異的重疊非常的嚴重這個是一方面就動物來講是好現象但是怎麼樣"},{"start":361.342,"end":381.887,"text":"這個我們的部落我們的人我們的鄉親怎麼樣也能夠獲得保護這個是林業署農業部的新的課題啦新的課題這個上次我也提到這個濁西鄉這個中正部落你看這已經跑到海拔"},{"start":384.268,"end":392.773,"text":"170-200公尺之內的這樣的一個地點這是一個非常非常需要新的課題好不好"},{"start":395.827,"end":414.143,"text":"黑熊的保育其實我們現在正在啟動更詳細的族群的調查那相關的牠的棲息地牠的海拔高度那個都沒有問題啦現在是人怎麼保護啦是我們的部落我們的人怎麼保護對好不好那這個要怎麼樣的一個方式大家共存啦方式來處理好 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一集各位先進有請外交部的林部長林部長 你好你好"},{"start":15.963,"end":35.86,"text":"這個讓你turn the gear剛才大家一直問你林昌佐等一下我再問好了我先問你一下另外的題目這個關於這個教宗前教宗方濟克的商禮以及現在新的教宗梁世世舊址請問你啊"},{"start":40.154,"end":51.079,"text":"教廷跟中華民國有沒有邦交有有邦交那當然要爭取總統或者副總統參與啊為什麼都爭取不到不對怎麼這麼難"},{"start":54.409,"end":68.455,"text":"是要這麼狠嗎 你有正式邦交國對不對他的舊的教宗的一個彌撒或者什麼的然後新的教宗的上任跟我們又有邦交國為什麼我們沒辦法徵集到我們的總統副總統去 為什麼"},{"start":72.52,"end":86.825,"text":"我們當然是希望有這樣子的機會那這一次經過雙邊的這個溝通那認為由陳前副總統 當然總統特使是比較好的安排怎麼比較好 戴琴得琴最好啦誰會知道啊 如果不像蕭美琴就可以啊有真是邦交國 哪裡有這個浪浪陳建能去的那還不如你去就好了"},{"start":99.148,"end":104.972,"text":"陳前副總統有他在國際上的地位不是啦而且他跟教廷的關係是長久的是啦 你這樣說我們就不要邦加國了啊那個叫實質外交的關係啊是不是部長這一部分老實講外交部做得很爛啦大扣分啦不然聽一聽你們爭取怎麼樣請問是來自中國大陸大家嗎"},{"start":126.221,"end":134.869,"text":"當然有啊 中國是什麼都會打壓的啊 不管是任何事情一推奧白虎啊 中華民國的外交部長很會做的我們只要呼吸 中共也會打壓所以中華民國外交部長很好做啊只要不順利就說啊 叫他打壓在國際上真的是我們外交的困境你也了解 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請我們的總統出席"},{"start":277.975,"end":281.601,"text":"我們當然有列入我們的選項你有沒有跟他講啦我們透過駐教廷的大使他們說NO他們負責的國務院嘛就是還是原來的人嘛"},{"start":292.12,"end":316.694,"text":"國務院院長他們覺得這樣的安排是比較就是說很好的安排那我們覺得對長久來看我們的跟這個教廷的關係一定要建立在這樣的互信然後不斷去提升那過去有一些限制我們希望能夠突破什麼限制"},{"start":318.84,"end":338.191,"text":"因為大家應該也了解2018年這個涉及到的這個教廷跟中國的主教任命臨時協定那自從那個之後那個辦理當局台的一些這個政策啊我們看喔這個今年的WHA 也是說過CPTPP 大家說要去 也沒有"},{"start":342.213,"end":357.521,"text":"到現在為止萊豬也吃了核食也吃不了什麼都說那個你們以前的次長李存啊還公開說勒辯論的時候說只要吃了萊豬就可以加入CPTPP啊這樣咕咕咕啊CPTPP也沒有 都在騙啦都在騙啦 外交部變成說謊部啊"},{"start":364.723,"end":369.747,"text":"這個是真的很悲哀的事情好 最後一個題目回到今天大家很熱門的問請問你林昶佐到底是最早誰提出來的"},{"start":375.25,"end":401.144,"text":"林昶佐要當這個大使是你提出來的是不是任何大使代表這個都是總統所任命的所以總統交給你你就發布我外交部長當然我會綜合考量也會建議那以我們各個我們現在總和外交的推動來視財視所來安排駐外的這個大使跟代表"},{"start":402.148,"end":407.193,"text":"對啦 我是不知道啦 他是要去 現在是芬蘭欠歌手是不是欠歌手芬蘭不是只有重金屬音樂 芬蘭人權 安全 經貿 觀光都非常的發展我們不能夠小看了芬蘭對啊 不然我不知道林昶佐最主要就是怕我唱歌啊"},{"start":424.851,"end":440.421,"text":"他是以前你們的同事餒 兩屆的外交國防委員會而且就是他代表台灣到這個包括丹麥的民主峰會還受拜登總統之邀去華埔也是適合啊 你也很適合啊我覺得委員齁 委員您也非常適合欸您具備的資歷真的是 這個擔任大使啊真的可以說駕輕就熟啊"},{"start":452.569,"end":469.357,"text":"這樣後來就盡量讓大使都娶女兒就對了對 美國就是這樣國會議員去擔任大使的比比皆是這是未來的趨勢是不是未來的 不是現在就是如此不是說只有未來喔過去也是好 那就是先預祝穩定以後快要當大使啦"},{"start":472.119,"end":479.405,"text":"他不是這樣啦,他不是這樣啦,現在進行室都要找我們的立委當大使,我是第一次聽到啦國會議員啦,美國的國會議員當大使的,算起來我想我幾百人去了好啦,我跟你說啦齁"},{"start":487.23,"end":512.316,"text":"林昶佐他去擔任大使給外界的感覺就是是大陸人不認識還是沒有沒有 外交官外交官資深的像現在坐在這裡面的一堆外交官心裡他沒有XXX我都不相信委員您上次問的時候就好幾個現在去當大使了像那個住印尼的旁邊你最左邊那一個人那個他也很想當大使他時間到了也會去當他還沒有當"},{"start":514.851,"end":534.212,"text":"這裏面都有資格,而且很多人其實都...你說奇怪,你說那邊的人要做大使,這裏面的人要做大使,整間都要做大使我跟你講,比如像希臘,愛爾蘭,還有這個以前都是比較屬於非職業外交官現在都由職業外交官去擔任大使,最近的"},{"start":535.009,"end":536.01,"text":"林昭祖不是職業外交官吧林務局長啊去希臘啊還有我們的那個人社會主任區愛爾蘭我總結一句話就結束了你的意思就是說未來"},{"start":555.046,"end":573.318,"text":"立委 中國立委的 出任外交官的機會很大外交國安委員會特別是很適合啦 外交國安委員會現在做不吞黨派都很適合第二個 未來越多越多不是外交官擔任大使"},{"start":573.638,"end":576.4,"text":"這有一個比例的限制啦那有的是名額啦我們都是就是視財視所為主不是因為名額要可以賺多少我們還是職業外交官除了芬蘭比較堅堅堅堅堅堅堅堅堅堅堅堅堅堅堅堅堅堅"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":349,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（10時35分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請外交部林部長。","林部長，你好。"],["林部長佳龍：你好。"],["賴委員士葆：Lai turn the gear！剛才大家一直問你林昶佐，等一下我再問好了。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["賴委員士葆：我先問你另外的題目，關於前教宗方濟各的喪禮以及現在新教宗良十四世就職，請問教廷跟中華民國有沒有邦交？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["賴委員士葆：有邦交，當然要爭取總統或者副總統參與啊，為什麼都爭取不到？部長，怎麼這麼「頇顢」？為什麼這麼「頇顢」？正式的邦交國，他們舊教宗的彌撒或者什麼，然後新教宗的上任，跟我們是邦交國，為什麼我們沒辦法爭取到我們總統、副總統過去，為什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：我們當然是希望有這樣的機會，這一次經過雙邊的溝通，認為由陳前副總統擔任總統特使是比較好的安排。"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼比較好？"],["林部長佳龍：效果也很好。"],["賴委員士葆：賴清德去最好啦！想也知道，不然蕭美琴也可以啊！有正式邦交國，哪裡有讓陳建仁去的，那還不如你去就好了，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：陳前副總統有他在國際上的地位……"],["賴委員士葆：不是啦！當然他地位很高啦……"],["林部長佳龍：而且他跟教廷的關係是長久的。"],["賴委員士葆：是啦，你這樣說，那我們就不要邦交國了啊！那個叫實質外交的關係啊，是不是？部長，這個部分老實講是外交部做得很爛啦、大扣分啦！不然也聽一下，哇，你爭取到什麼，請問是來自中國大陸的打壓嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：當然有啊！中國是什麼都會打壓的，不管是任何事情。"],["賴委員士葆：你這是一推二百五啊！中華民國的外交部長很好當耶！"],["林部長佳龍：我們只要呼吸，中共也會打壓。"],["賴委員士葆：是啊，所以中華民國的外交部長很好做啊，只要不順利就說是「阿共」的打壓。"],["林部長佳龍：不會啦！"],["賴委員士葆：「阿共」的打壓！"],["林部長佳龍：委員，在國際上，我們外交的困境你也了解，我們也在不斷的突破，希望捍衛我們的權益。"],["賴委員士葆：中國大陸對臺灣的打壓幾十年來都如此，他不是今天才打壓，也不會是林佳龍當部長才打壓，always打壓！"],["林部長佳龍：對！"],["賴委員士葆：他跟我們是邦交國耶，我要強調的是這個，他根我們有邦交，但派不出我們的總統，也派不出我們的副總統，那是有夠「低路」啊！外交部長有夠「低路」，真的！「撨袂好」，這個有夠「低路」啊！真的！我講這個話你接受嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我認為……我不接受啊！"],["賴委員士葆：你不接受，你覺得你做得很棒？你做得很棒？"],["林部長佳龍：其實外交是很複雜的，委員也了解，我們跟教廷的關係要能夠維繫，然後我們也……"],["賴委員士葆：可憐喔！一個跟我們有正式邦交的國家，這麼重要的慶典，我們的總統、副總統沒有辦法去，你說你都沒有覺得怎麼樣……"],["林部長佳龍：我想新的教宗應該也會有新的作為啦，我們也是有所期待。"],["賴委員士葆：你是怎樣，你是準備要斷交了，是不是？是準備斷交了，是不是？"],["林部長佳龍：我們希望關係可以不斷的再提升。"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，今年度不會斷交吧？"],["林部長佳龍：譬如說……"],["賴委員士葆：我就問你這個問題，因為我的發言時間快到了。"],["林部長佳龍：這個在一年前委員也有問過我啊，我剛上任的時候啊。"],["賴委員士葆：對！現在呢？"],["林部長佳龍：我們就是把12個邦交國都顧好，這是基本的，但是我們除了顧邦交國，我們希望能夠有外交空間走出去。"],["賴委員士葆：要給老百姓看得到嘛，陳建仁去我沒有意見，因為他有天主教的背景，但是我在意的是，他是我們的邦交國、他是我們的邦交國，不能夠只有靠實質外交關係，因為是有正式外交關係，請問你有沒有跟他們提出來說要請總統或副總統去，有沒有提出來？"],["林部長佳龍：我們都有溝通……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有提出來？你先回答我這個問題！"],["林部長佳龍：陳前副總統也轉達了總統的致賀函，面交……"],["賴委員士葆：不是啦！"],["林部長佳龍：他們也有回復。"],["賴委員士葆：我問你，你有沒有正式跟他說，我們要請我們的總統出席？有沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：這當然有列入我們的選項。"],["賴委員士葆：你有沒有跟他講啦？你有沒有跟教廷講？"],["林部長佳龍：我們透過駐教廷的大使。"],["賴委員士葆：他們說No？"],["林部長佳龍：他們負責的國務院就還是原來的人嘛，國務院院長……"],["賴委員士葆：說No，是不是？他們說No？"],["林部長佳龍：沒有，他們覺得這樣的安排是很好的安排，我們覺得以長久來看，我們跟教廷的關係一定要建立在這樣的互信之下，然後不斷去提升，過去有一些限制，我們希望能夠突破。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼限制？什麼限制？"],["林部長佳龍：大家應該也了解，2018年涉及到的教廷跟中國的主教任命臨時協定，自從那個之後，梵諦岡對臺的一些政策、作法……"],["賴委員士葆：我們帳一個一個算啦！今年的WHA也是「槓龜」，CPTPP每次說要去也沒有，到現在為止，萊豬也吃了、核食也吃了，什麼都……你們以前的次長李淳還公開說，在辯論的時候說，只要吃了萊豬就可以加入CPTPP，這樣咕咕咕，CPTPP也沒有，都在騙啦！都在騙啦！外交部變成說謊部啦！這真的是很悲哀的事情。","好，最後一個題目，回到今天很熱門的問題，請問你，林昶佐最早是誰提出來的？"],["林部長佳龍：林昶佐？"],["賴委員士葆：對，林昶佐要當這個大使，是你提出來的，是不是？還是上面交辦下來的？"],["林部長佳龍：任何大使或代表都是總統所任命的。"],["賴委員士葆：所以總統交給你，你就發布？"],["林部長佳龍：我是外交部長，當然我會綜合考量，也會建議，以我們現在總合外交的推動，適才適所來安排駐外的大使跟代表。"],["賴委員士葆：對啦，我是不知道啦，他是要去……現在是怎樣，現在芬蘭欠歌手，是不是？欠歌手……"],["林部長佳龍：芬蘭不是只有重金屬，因為……"],["賴委員士葆：欠歌手，所以需要林昶佐來當大使……"],["林部長佳龍：芬蘭人權、安全、經貿、觀光都非常的發展，我們不能夠小看了芬蘭。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊，不然我不知道，林昶佐最主要就是他很會唱歌啊，沒有人說他唱歌不好，他唱歌非常好啊……"],["林部長佳龍：他以前是你們的同事耶，2屆的外交國防委員會委員，而且……"],["賴委員士葆：我知道啊，我知道啊！"],["林部長佳龍：而且他代表臺灣到包括丹麥的民主峰會，還受拜登總統之邀去華府耶！"],["賴委員士葆：如果這樣，王定宇更適合。"],["林部長佳龍：也是適合啊，你也很適合啊！"],["賴委員士葆：王定宇更適合，做了這麼久的外交國防的召委，他有資歷……"],["林部長佳龍：我覺得委員你也非常適合耶，您具備的資歷真的是，如果擔任大使，真的可以說駕輕就熟啊！"],["賴委員士葆：這樣下次就儘量用，大使都找立委就對了！"],["林部長佳龍：對，美國就是這樣，國會議員去擔任大使的比比皆是。"],["賴委員士葆：這是未來的趨勢，是不是？"],["林部長佳龍：不是，現在就是如此，不是說只有未來喔，過去也是。"],["賴委員士葆：好，那就先預祝王定宇很快要當大使了！"],["王委員定宇：……說了算，是嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：他的意思就是這樣嘛，說現在進行式都要找我們立委當大使，我是第一次聽到啦！"],["林部長佳龍：國會議員啦！美國的國會議員當大使的，算起來我想有幾百人了。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦，我跟你說啦，林昶佐去擔任大使，給外界的感覺就是臺灣都沒人才了嗎？我們的資深外交官，像現在坐在這裡的一堆外交官，心裡沒有叉叉叉我都不相信！"],["林部長佳龍：委員，您上次問的時候就有好幾個現在去當大使了，像駐印尼的……"],["賴委員士葆：最左邊那個也很像當大使啊！"],["林部長佳龍：他時間到了也會去當啦。"],["賴委員士葆：他還沒有當啦，你看到他就在那裡啊！"],["林部長佳龍：這裡面的都有資格，而且很多人其實都……內定的也不少啦！"],["賴委員士葆：你說的很奇怪，你說那些人要當大使啊，又說立委要當大使，這整間都要當大使！"],["林部長佳龍：委員，我跟你講，比如希臘、愛爾蘭，以前都比較屬於非職業外交官，現在都由職業外交官去擔任大使耶，最近……"],["賴委員士葆：職業外交官？"],["林部長佳龍：我們的……"],["賴委員士葆：林昶佐不是職業外交官吧？"],["林部長佳龍：我們的領務局長去希臘，我們的研設會主任去愛爾蘭耶！"],["賴委員士葆：我總結一句話就結束了。你的意思就是說，未來做過立委的出任外交官的機會很大……"],["林部長佳龍：外交國防委員會的特別適合啦，真的。"],["賴委員士葆：外交國防委員會？"],["林部長佳龍：對啦，現在在座的，不分黨派都很適合啦。"],["賴委員士葆：好，第二個，未來會有越多不是外交官的去擔任大使，是不是這樣？"],["林部長佳龍：No，這有比例的限制，有一定名額啦！我們都是適才適所為主，不是因為名額要多少，我們還是以職業外交官為優先。"],["賴委員士葆：芬蘭除了可能比較欠缺歌手以外，我找不出理由說為什麼找他去當大使？謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：多才多藝也是好事。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員。","接下來由黃國昌委員質詢，待會楊瓊瓔委員質詢之後，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-15","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","王定宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅美玲","林憶君","王鴻薇","陳永康"],"page_start":319,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等48案","agenda_id":"1145001_00014"}}},{"id":"161541","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161541","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f033861c866751e084239b9191e0d12eeacb2fe453f4508dd4608b7010f5f8dc8a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:31:54 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謝謝主席 有請鄭部長麻煩鄭部長中選會中選會委員長"},{"start":16.054,"end":40.728,"text":"早安大家辛苦了今天我們專案報告的主題是民眾反映收到罷免聯署簡訊顯非商業廣告目的之運用質疑各自洩漏而侵害人民權益我尊重召委的排案權但是呢我更認為如果今天要列這個主題你至少要併另外一個主題"},{"start":41.869,"end":65.44,"text":"譬如說也是社會各界更重視的主題也是影響的範圍更大的也就是我建議今天的專案報告應當題目是就民眾反映國民黨執政縣市濫用戶政系統個資進行偽造罷免連署嚴重侵害人民權益專案報告我認為專案報告應當是我現在說的這個題目"},{"start":70.834,"end":92.43,"text":"因為司法調查證據已經非常明確國民黨不管是在基隆或者是在花蓮都發生了公務體系地方政府濫用政府的系統的資訊來進行惡霸或者是向人民查水表"},{"start":93.669,"end":121.146,"text":"我進入我的PPT之前 我也要說我現在看到的臨時提案喔是徐欣穎委員這邊 翁曉琳委員這邊 招委也有連署也就是呢 為了守護人民的隱私權 確保選罷法制度選罷制度之正當性與民主機制之信任基礎要求NCC法務部中選會及個人資料保護委員會籌備處要立即來成立專案調查小組"},{"start":122.026,"end":130.883,"text":"就罷免簡訊的名單來源傳送機制涉及各自處理流程等進行全面調查如果這個"},{"start":132.968,"end":161.061,"text":"臨時提案要通過的話那應當針對剛剛審發會委員列出一托拉庫國民黨的委員在選舉的期間不管是縣市首長或是地方選立委或是議員的也都利用簡訊系統去敗票 去催票如果國民黨的委員要提這個臨時提案就公平嘛剛剛這一托拉庫的如果"},{"start":163.999,"end":188.793,"text":"針對罷免的簡訊名單來源傳送機制就要被查的話那剛剛那些查不查部長你覺得呢這個有沒有成立那個只要有人告發那我們就會依法來處理那是不是說收到簡訊是不是成立犯罪像這個剛剛有提到就個資的問題那這個個人資料依據那個個資保護法第二條說"},{"start":190.194,"end":217.316,"text":"用此他個人資料是指自然人自然人而且包括什麼醫療等連絡方式得以直接間接識別該個人資料如果說只是單純電話碼他沒辦法識別這王某某所有或張某所有這亂腔打擾式的發簡訊那是不是成為各自的一個一個一個我們是還是有在在眼裡的沒有錯嘛他不是指名道姓傳給吳思瑤你怎樣你怎樣他可能就是"},{"start":218.365,"end":233.194,"text":"像剛剛收集到很多名單就傳出去直接說王某某你好所以這可能就比較接近我們各自的問題我進入我的主題憲法保障人民的基本權利憲法22條規範"},{"start":235.535,"end":256.096,"text":"而大法官釋字第603號又再一次確認了個資以及隱私權就是憲法22條所保障的當然我們也因應111年憲判第13號對於個人資料保護的獨立監督機制國家的政策需要更強大的配套下一頁"},{"start":256.796,"end":270.343,"text":"所以說呢執政團隊負責任執政團隊撥破網因應大法官給出來的三年期限我們要修法所以個人資料保護法經濟委員會這週四就要逐條審查我們在法制面要健全它要補強它"},{"start":275.549,"end":292.058,"text":"而大法官要求的個人資料保護委員會要有一個專責的監督單位所以我們會用一個組織法的方式未來鍾瑞雄委員在司委會應當也會排案所以一個立法委員要做的是這麼在乎個人資料保護"},{"start":293.118,"end":305.67,"text":"那麼趕快從法治健全的修法跟立法來著手現在的執政黨的版本要修各自法建立各自事故通報與應變義務機制設置個人資料保護長明定角色的獨立性"},{"start":311.596,"end":340.499,"text":"非公務機關收集個資需要定期取得授權建立公務機關與非公務機關之間的監督與集合制度還有最後一項要規劃監管權限的整合與過渡期的機制我們要從法制面去完整它如果今天召委所排的這個題目對於這個簡訊的發送到底是商業非商業怎麼收集而來我認為未來的個人資料保護法在修法的過程我們可以更進一步的健全它"},{"start":341.099,"end":355.405,"text":"更進一步的去討論它譬如說非公務機關收集個資要定期取得授權的這個部分就有很多可以討論的嘛部長你同意我的主張吧這個法制的完備我想更能夠保護那個個人的個人資料下一頁如果要說誰濫用個資國民黨實在是第一名啦叫國民黨第一名啦針對霸團的"},{"start":370.686,"end":390.128,"text":"負責人這個鬧得沸沸揚揚這個阿美他不只被公佈了本名他的行業他的公司都被國民黨黨中央用記者會的方式用黨機器來肉搜公民請問這有沒有違反個人資料的保護啊部長"},{"start":393.102,"end":421.076,"text":"這部分如果又有告發告訴那這邊我們檢查會但是不是就構成了這個事實這個還是要有好個人來告發再來認定但是這就非常清楚的是未經他人同意把他的真實姓名行業對外公告我認為這就明確的違法了下一頁國民黨做賊喊抓賊洩露個資最佳一級的是濫用"},{"start":422.313,"end":448.482,"text":"市府的資源行政不中立所以基隆的案件呢這個民政處長呢40萬交保他自己也辭職了因為動用了公家資源調出了戶政系統的個人資料去幫忙作為造假連署這個法院已經認證了是誰違法呢是郭明棟在基隆"},{"start":452.25,"end":470.537,"text":"有沒有往上延燒因為這個民政處長呢他隱匿共犯隱匿完整犯罪情節很可能有串供之魚很可能向上延燒會不會燒到基隆市的大家長或是國民黨的任何人不知道證據到哪裡就辦到哪裡我支持檢調查辦下一頁"},{"start":472.714,"end":491.454,"text":"而花蓮一樣 這個民政處長也辭職了他也遭地檢署來起訴因為濫用花蓮縣府的戶政系統去對罷團有連署的公民來查水表"},{"start":492.835,"end":513.35,"text":"這個也違反個資所以司法認證是誰在盜用人民的個資叫罪中國國民黨 下一頁而我也非常的難以相信就是國民黨的立法委員 葉委員他居然可以在節目上說呢說這個明良真啊 就是花蓮縣府的這個民政處長啊"},{"start":520.001,"end":536.551,"text":"葉元之說就他看來從頭到尾這個明良真沒有洩露什麼個資啊因為這個個資本來就在他手上就在花蓮縣政府就在民政系統的手上啊這個個資本來就是他所有的啊所以呢花蓮縣府拿這個個資"},{"start":538.399,"end":560.942,"text":"去做不該做的事是要批判 但是葉元之認為從頭到尾花蓮縣府沒有洩漏個資 因為這個個資本來就在花蓮縣政府的手上也就是把公民的個人資料當作他的私有產物當作他的私有權 可以動用 可以濫用盜用有理 挪用無罪 這就是中國國民黨的委員"},{"start":562.503,"end":586.675,"text":"到底是法盲還是文盲啊法律看不懂還是法律認知大有問題啊今天還有一個最新的案子花蓮又爆發了某一位他沒有居住在花蓮他是數年前到花蓮遊玩有去租車公司租了一台車結果呢他最近收到了在調查郭台銘總統連署案"},{"start":588.7,"end":614.239,"text":"他居然他的個資被拿去他沒有要連署支持郭台銘參選總統可是他被拿去用了這就是現在發生的在國民黨及國民黨相關系統不管是總統副總統的選舉連署或者是惡霸亂霸的連署盜用濫用人民的個資第一名叫做中國國民黨"},{"start":615.427,"end":618.642,"text":"所以今天周伟的牌啊我认为非常的选择性啊"},{"start":620.014,"end":641.96,"text":"應當專案報告成為我剛剛的題目才對啊應當好好來研析一下啊國民黨執政縣市濫用戶政系統各自進行偽造罷免連署嚴重傷害人民權益這不就才應當是今天召委排案的主題嗎如果你要討論這個簡訊傳送也可以啊至少要併案啊怎麼這麼選擇性這麼不公正呢"},{"start":647.459,"end":672.59,"text":"違法的事證這麼明確的不敢問不敢探究護航自己人我說一次再說一次針對所謂的簡訊的使用請在野黨的委員好好在個人資料保護法裡面的法治健全的討論我們好好來研習法律在未來的要成立專責機關我們好好就法治面去探討"},{"start":673.823,"end":683.12,"text":"而不是來做這種個案的操作做這種政治的操作我認為這非常有違立法委員的專業性公平性"},{"start":684.52,"end":713.439,"text":"今天不好意思後面題目時間到了沒有辦法讓大家回答我們繼續努力我再一次說任何的個案尊重司法偵辦勿妄勿縱司法案件的核心是證據而不是政治司法核心是在證據而不是政治請所有的從政者都應當有這樣基本的法制態度正確的解讀好辛苦大家謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":659,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時32分）謝謝主席，有請鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩鄭部長。"],["吳委員思瑤：中選會。"],["主席：好，中選會。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：早安，大家辛苦了。今天我們專案報告的主題是「民眾反應收到罷免連署簡訊，顯非商業廣告目的利用，質疑個資洩漏而侵害人民權益」，我尊重召委的排案權，但是我更認為如果今天要列這個主題，你至少要併另外一個主題，譬如也是社會各界更重視的主題，影響範圍更大的，也就是我建議今天專案報告的題目應當是「就民眾反映國民黨執政縣市濫用戶政系統個資進行偽造罷免連署，嚴重侵害人民權益」專案報告，我認為專案報告應當是我現在說的這個題目，因為司法調查證據已經非常明確，國民黨不管是在基隆或是在花蓮，都發生公務體系地方政府濫用政府的系統資訊來進行惡罷，或是向人民查水表。","在進入我的PPT之前，我現在看到的臨時提案是徐欣瑩委員、翁曉玲委員這邊，召委也有連署，也就是為了守護人民的隱私權，確保選罷法制度之正當性與民主機制之信任基礎，要求NCC、法務部、中選會及個人資料保護委員會籌備處要立即成立專案調查小組，就罷免簡訊的名單來源、傳送機制、涉及個資處理流程等進行全面調查。如果這個臨時提案要通過的話，那應當針對剛剛沈發惠委員列出一拖拉庫國民黨的委員在選舉期間，不管是縣市首長或地方選立委或議員，也都利用簡訊系統去拜票、催票，如果國民黨的委員要提這個臨時提案，就公平嘛，剛剛這一拖拉庫的簡訊，如果針對罷免的簡訊名單來源、傳送機制要被查的話，那剛剛那些查不查？部長，你覺得呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有沒有成立，只要有人告發，我們就會依法來處理。至於收到簡訊是不是就成立犯罪，剛剛有提到就個資的問題，有關個人資料，依據個資保護法第二條的用詞定義，個人資料是指自然人，而且包括什麼醫療、聯絡方式等，得以直接或間接識別該個人資料，如果只是單純電話碼，沒辦法識別這是王某某所有或張某某所有，這是亂槍打鳥式的發簡訊，這是不是有個資的……我們還是有再研議的空間。"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有錯嘛，他不是指名道姓傳給吳思瑤說你怎樣、你怎樣，他可能就是蒐集到很多名單就傳出去。"],["鄭部長銘謙：譬如他直接說王某某你好，這可能就比較接近有關個資的問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，沒關係。我進入我的主題，個人隱私為憲法保障人民的基本權利，是憲法第二十二條所規範的，而大法官釋字第603號又再一次確認了個資以及隱私權就是憲法第二十二條所保障的。我們也因應111年憲判字第13號，對於個人資料保護的獨立監督機制，國家的政策需要更強大的配套。所以執政團隊負責任、執政團隊補破網，因應大法官給出來的三年期限，我們要修法，所以經濟委員會這週四就要針對個人資料保護法來逐條審查，我們在法制面要健全它、補強它；而大法官要求個人資料保護委員會要有一個專責的監督單位，所以我們會用組織法的方式，未來莊瑞雄委員在司委會應當也會排案。","所以一個立法委員要做的是，這麼在乎個人資料保護，那就趕快從法制健全的修法跟立法著手，現在的執政黨版本，要修個資法，建立個資事故通報與應變義務機制；設置個人資料保護長，明定其角色獨立性；非公務機關蒐集個資須定期取得授權；建立公務機關與非公務機關之間的監督與稽核制度；還有最後一項，要規劃監管權限的整合與過渡期機制。我們要從法制面去完整它，如果今天召委所排的這個題目，對於這些簡訊的發送到底是商業、非商業、怎麼蒐集而來，我認為未來在個人資料保護法的修法過程中，我們可以更進一步地健全它、更進一步地去討論它，譬如非公務機關蒐集個資要定期取得授權的這部分，就有很多可以討論的，部長，你同意我的主張吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：法制的完備，我想更能保護個人資料。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。如果要說誰濫用個資，國民黨實在是第一名，叫國民黨第一名啦！針對罷團的負責人，鬧得沸沸揚揚，這位阿美不只被公布了本名，他的行業、公司都被國民黨黨中央用記者會的方式、用黨機器來肉搜公民，部長，請問這有沒有違反個人資料的保護？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分如果有告發、告訴，我們檢察官會……"],["吳委員思瑤：但是不是就構成了這個事實？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這還是要由……"],["吳委員思瑤：由個人來告發再來認定，但這就非常清楚的是，未經他人同意，把他的真實姓名、行業對外公告，我認為這就明確違法了。","國民黨做賊喊抓賊，洩漏個資罪加一級的是濫用市府的資源，行政不中立，所以基隆的案件，民政處長40萬交保，他自己也辭職了，因為動用了公家資源，調出戶政系統的個人資料幫忙作為造假連署，法院已經認證了，是誰違法呢？是國民黨，在基隆，有沒有往上延燒？因為這個民政處長隱匿共犯、隱匿完整犯罪情節，很可能有串供之虞，很可能向上延燒，會不會燒到基隆市的大家長或是國民黨的任何人？不知道！證據到哪裡就辦到哪裡，我支持檢調查辦。","接下來，花蓮一樣，這個民政處長也辭職了，他也遭地檢署起訴，因為濫用花蓮縣府的戶政系統對罷團有連署的公民查水表，這個也違反個資，所以司法認證是誰在盜用人民的個資？叫做中國國民黨。","我也非常難以相信這是國民黨的立法委員，葉元之居然可以在節目上說，就他看來從頭到尾花蓮縣府民政處長明良臻沒有洩漏什麼個資啊！因為這個個資本來就在他手上，就在花蓮縣政府民政系統上，這個個資本來就是他所有的，花蓮縣府拿個資去做不該做的事是要批判，但是葉元之認為，從頭到尾花蓮縣府沒有洩漏個資，因為這個個資本來就在花蓮縣政府的手上！也就是把公民的個人資料當作他的私有產物，當作他的私有權，可以動用、濫用，盜用有理、挪用無罪，這就是中國國民黨的委員！到底是法盲還是文盲？法律看不懂？還是法律認知大有問題？","今天還有一個最新的案子，花蓮又爆發了某一位民眾，他沒有居住在花蓮，他是數年前到花蓮遊玩有去租車公司租了一臺車，結果他最近收到了在調查郭台銘總統連署案，居然他的個資被拿去用，但他沒有要連署支持郭台銘參選總統，可是他被拿去用了。這就是現在發生在國民黨及國民黨相關系統，不管是總統、副總統的選舉、連署，或是惡罷、亂罷的連署，盜用、濫用人民個資，第一名的叫做中國國民黨。","所以今天召委的排案我認為非常的選擇性，應當專案報告我剛剛的題目才對啊！應當好好來研析一下啊！國民黨執政縣市濫用戶政系統的個資進行偽造罷免連署，嚴重傷害人民權益，這不應是今天召委排案的主題嗎？如果你要討論簡訊傳送也可以，至少要併案，怎麼這麼選擇性，這麼不公正呢？違法事證這麼明確的不敢問、不敢探究，護航自己人！我再說一次，針對所謂簡訊的使用，請在野黨的委員，好好就個人資料保護法裡面法制健全的討論，我們好好來研析法律，未來要成立專責機關，我們好好就法制面去探討，而不是來做這種個案的操作、政治的操作，我認為這非常有違立法委員的專業性、公平性。不好意思，今天時間到了，後面的題目沒有辦法讓大家回答，我們繼續努力。我再說一次，任何的個案尊重司法偵辦，勿枉勿縱，司法案件的核心是證據而不是政治，請所有的從政者都應當有這樣基本的法治態度、正確的解讀，辛苦大家，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我們先作議程程序報告：稍後在張啓楷委員詢答完畢後休息5分鐘。","我們接著請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","張啓楷","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","羅智強","王鴻薇","葉元之","林倩綺"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、內\n政部警政署署長、中央選舉委員會、數位發展部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有\n限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「民眾反應收到罷免連署簡訊，顯非商業廣告目的利用，質疑個資\n洩漏而侵害人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145202_00002"}}},{"id":"161540","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161540","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f0046845e04bfe901f28de2cce2b28366acb2fe453f4508dd4b01f5819580778665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:29:08 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當然也有部分的糾紛"},{"start":230.303,"end":243.089,"text":"但是目前是社會所需在這個毛小孩的部分非常的重要在整個產業當然你們也提出了一個定型化契約出來以供參考以供參考嗎 是不是是"},{"start":248.43,"end":271.868,"text":"就是你們提出這個定型化契約也是範本的意思就是範本嘛 以供參考那麼本席也在這邊要求也就是我們針對於保障動物福利與飼主權益具有積極非常好的一個意義那所以在這個落實程度你們也要有一個輔導的機制而不是只有公告在那邊也要輔導"},{"start":274.028,"end":288.2,"text":"我們後續公告以後我們後續會找工會像美容工會的部分然後他還有一些美容的照護士那這個部分我們都會要求他們來去講解我們要怎麼樣透過合約去保障雙方的權益"},{"start":289.901,"end":294.966,"text":"部長這個就對了也是本席的要求因為工會也是我們最好的志工我們把政府怎麼樣可以協助民眾的我們必須要告訴他們清楚那也要請工會拜託他們也趕快給他們的會員來多做宣導換句話說政府要主動宣導才能夠落實"},{"start":315.183,"end":328.835,"text":"這個也能夠達到施主本身的一個安心那業者他也能夠安心達到一個最好的一個平衡點這個非常的重要一定要努力的去宣導我們會加強來做加強來做最後一個議題本期要請教也就是移工的這個部分114年5月9號這個月"},{"start":336.041,"end":363.832,"text":"你們實施農業移工的新制那由一萬兩千人開放到現在你們宣告的兩萬人那我要特別感謝在三個會期我們一直在討論移工的這個部分因為農民真的很辛苦他有的沒有辦法一整年度但是有的類別也需要就像我們的草皮 中部經濟的草皮你們就納入 豆芽菜也納入這個就是人民所需"},{"start":364.252,"end":386.573,"text":"政府就要探求明末 聽到人民的需求喔那但是呢 我們拿到了這個核許證的時候呢之後我們必須還要到這個勞動部去申請在這個依法90天內要去申請喔那但是本市認為我們的農業跟一般是不一樣的它有季節性的需求"},{"start":388.876,"end":396.946,"text":"這個時間性的需求所以在這樣情況之下本期具體建議我們開放的人數所以本期具體建議我們的農業部應該跟勞動部你們去討論一個怎麼樣的一個迅速"},{"start":403.795,"end":427.474,"text":"符合條件的怎麼樣迅速去核發你不要等到兩三個月我的這個季節需求已經過了那這個是太浪費了所以要怎麼樣能夠加速他們申請的這個流程請做說明我跟委員說委員非常關心就是說就算我們有那麼多增加了一些人但是如果效率太慢的話過了那個時節"},{"start":428.775,"end":449.92,"text":"所以我們有跟勞動部在談因為勞動部我們這邊審的完會給勞動部勞動部可能有自己的一套程序那我們希望說是不是可以針對農業的部分單獨拉出來去做審查因為本期是深怕我們有這個美意從一萬兩千人到兩萬人但是如果行政斷鏈"},{"start":451.48,"end":471.947,"text":"很沒差的所以這個部分你預計要怎麼做呢所以我現在我會再跟勞動部來特別是跟他們部長直接說可以說審查的過程中因為農業它比較特殊性有季節性的部分是不是可以先拉出來單獨審不管它人多人少一段時間就要去審一次那這個時間要怎麼壓縮你看你多久時間可以告訴我們農民大家都拭目以待都在等"},{"start":480.896,"end":481.036,"text":"跟委員說明齁"},{"start":496.417,"end":503.843,"text":"我們農業部的部分我們一定會壓縮時間儘快去處理申請案件至於勞動部的審查機制恐怕涉及相關的法規我們必須要跟他確認說有沒有修法的問題這個部分再來做解釋你要談嘛 你要談才知道答案嘛第一個 壓縮你農業部自己可以做的競訴"},{"start":517.735,"end":521.098,"text":"依法禁訴第二個立即跟勞動部來討論我們要怎麼樣可以把這個時間流程能夠簡便啊才能夠真正幫助到我們的農民嘛這樣這樣委員我知道您的關心我想我這個禮拜我們一定會"},{"start":534.349,"end":548.02,"text":"包括我自己跟部長那邊會有困擾我直接跟他講然後開相關的工作會議然後如果說他們要修法可能要慢一點如果不用修法就可以立即來處理然後月底之前來跟委員做說明月底之前說明謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":423,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時29分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，請邀請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。我們的農民看天吃飯，我們好不容易通過了農業保險法，在執行的過程當中有很多的不方便，所以我們也一直在精進、一直在改進，當時我們也推出農業天然災害現地照相app，因為我們的農民比較老實，他要運用AI的系統，我們似乎還是要去輔導他，但是到目前為止，我們發覺還是有很多農民不知道要怎麼用，尤其發生農損的時候，他說他沒有拍照，我們聽了很難過，所以在這樣的情況之下，本席認為我們在整個數位工具、對於app的操作，似乎還有提升的空間。","目前我們看到3月底，從112年5月開始上路到現在，累計下載約6萬7,000次，所以本席要請教，我們有了工具，我們希望能夠用得上，我們一定要好好的協助農民，所以本席要請教，到現在運用你所謂的農產天然災害現地照相app而去申請的有多少件？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個，我跟委員報告，現在app下載大概有七萬一千多次，以去年最多，因為他要去拍的時候……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個是下載。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我現在要講……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請教，實際上真正有運用而上傳的有多少件？"],["陳部長駿季：有上傳的有75萬張，特別是在去年的3次颱風，因為有災害以後，農民才會去照相，所以我們應該去看去年發生災害的時候，它的瞬間暴增，表示在那段時間有太多人用，因為75萬張其實是滿多的，接下來到今年為止，大概有四十幾項的天然災害我們開出去了，然後我們看這段時間還是有很多人用app先去做證據保全，等到我們開了天然災害以後，他就可以拿這個照片、上傳的照片讓公所去做後端的查核。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，所以本席要告訴你的是，「立即」是非常重要的。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：尤其現在鄉鎮公所的人力也有限，因為他們後端還要做查核的工作，我們也希望這個部分能夠好好再去推廣、再去輔導，讓大家都可以在第一時間保留這個證據，我想這是對農民非常大的幫助。"],["陳部長駿季：特別是像中部，像剛剛陳亭妃委員講的龍眼，中部有很多龍眼，對不對？如果農民覺得他的情況有異的時候，他都可以先照相做證據保全。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以這個就是你們要宣導的。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會去做宣導。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要去宣導，不然現在急降雨非常多，一沖下去不見了，農民就損失非常大，所以這個精進的方案必須再去提升。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：立即保全證據一定要好好的落實，才不會說我們有了這個工具但是用不上。"],["陳部長駿季：是，我們會來努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們要好好的協助我們的農民。接下來本席要跟你討論的是，我們現在寵物美容業者非常多，當然也有部分的糾紛，但是目前這是社會所需，毛小孩的部分非常重要，在整個產業，當然你們也提出一個定型化契約。"],["陳部長駿季：我們已經公告了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：以供參考嗎？是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是你們提出這個定型化契約。"],["陳部長駿季：那是範本的意思。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是範本，以供參考。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席也在這邊要求，我們要保障動物福利與飼主權益，這個具有積極、非常好的意義，所以這個落實程度，你們也要有一個輔導機制，而不是只有公告在那邊，也要輔導，請說明。"],["陳部長駿季：在公告以後，我們後續會找公會，像美容工會的部分，然後還有一些美容的照護室，這個部分我們都會要求他們去講解要怎麼樣透過合約保障雙方的權益。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，部長，這個也是本席的要求，因為工會也是我們最好的志工，我們政府可以怎麼樣協助民眾的，必須清楚告訴他們，也要拜託工會趕快跟會員多宣導。換句話說，政府要主動宣導才能夠……"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們會做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：才能夠落實，這樣也能夠達到飼主本身的安心，業者也能夠安心，達到最好的平衡點，這個非常重要，一定要努力地去宣導。"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們會加強來做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，最後一個議題，本席要請教移工的部分，114年5月9號，這個月你們實施農業移工的新制，原本有1萬2,000人，到現在宣告開放2萬人，我也要特別感謝在上個會期，我們一直在討論移工的部分，因為農民真的很辛苦，有的沒有辦法一整年度，但是有的類別也需要，就像草皮……"],["陳部長駿季：對，委員關心的草皮我們也開了、也納入了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們納入中部地區的草皮，也納入豆芽菜，這個就是人民所需，政府要探求民瘼，聽到人民的需求，但是拿到核許證之後，依法90天內必須到勞動部申請，本席認為，我們的農業跟一般是不一樣的，它有季節性的需求、有時間性的需求，在這樣情況之下，本席具體建議開放的人數，農業部應該跟勞動部去討論符合條件的，怎麼樣迅速核發，不要等了2、3個月，季節需求已經過了，這樣太浪費了。要怎麼樣加速他們申請的流程？請說明。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，委員非常關心，就算我們有增加一些人，如果效率太慢會過了那個時間，所以我們有跟勞動部在談，農業部審完會給勞動部，勞動部可能有自己的一套程序，我們希望可以針對農業的部分單獨拉出來去審查……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：單獨拉出來，部長，對了！"],["陳部長駿季：因為這樣的話可能會比較快。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席深怕我們有美意從1萬2,000人到2萬人，如果行政斷鏈很可惜！這個部分你預計要怎麼做？"],["陳部長駿季：我會再跟勞動部……特別是跟他們部長直接說。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！"],["陳部長駿季：說審查的過程中，因為農業比較特殊，有季節性的部分，是不是可以先拉出來單獨審，不管人多人少，一段時間就要去審一次。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對、對、對，這個時間要怎麼壓縮？你看你多久時間可以告訴我們農民？大家都拭目以待，都在等耶！你跟勞動部洪部長討論你們的方案，因為確實有季節性的問題、時效性的問題。"],["陳部長駿季：因為有一部分還要是要修法。"],["陳司長俊言：跟委員說明，我們農業部的部分，一定會壓縮時間儘快去處理申請案件，至於勞動部的審查機制，恐怕會涉及相關的法規，我們必須要跟他們確認有沒有修法的問題，這個部分再來做處置。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要談嘛！你要談才知道答案……"],["陳司長俊言：我們儘量跟他們接洽。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第一個，壓縮你農業部自己可以做的，依法儘速。第二個，立即跟勞動部討論，要怎麼樣可以把時間、流程能夠簡便，才能夠真正幫助到我們的農民。"],["陳部長駿季：委員，我知道您的關心，我想這個禮拜，我們一定會……包括我自己跟部長那邊，有碰到我直接跟他講，開相關的工作會議，如果他們要修法可能會慢一點，如果不用修法，就可以立即來處理，然後月底之前跟委員說明。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，月底之前說明，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝楊委員。","下一位請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-13","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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只有去過一次在您剛剛所說的這麼重要的一個人權相關的組織裡面開了15次的會議裡面只出了一次的出席出席率是6.7%引發了228事件的受難者家屬的批評質疑他的轉型正義的認真程度"},{"start":212.56,"end":241.346,"text":"所以如果他在台湾担任228董事的时候他出席率都只有6.7%那他到了这个芬兰你怎么有能力去确认他能够升任这个工作呢他在台湾都做不好了你觉得他到芬兰能够做得好这也是让我觉得很奇怪的是另外再来我要请教兵役的问题在芬兰的兵役里面呢请问如果今天有逃兵假病那是有没有相关法律后果的在芬兰"},{"start":242.625,"end":258.436,"text":"或者是說您對於芬蘭的兵役制度有沒有了解他們是不是有要求強制必須要當兵才能夠符合芬蘭的相關法律有有嘛所以他們有分成軍事服役最起碼要當五個月多以上"},{"start":258.996,"end":263.777,"text":"那我們現在派去的這個臨場所這個什麼大使的完全沒有當過兵這種情況在芬蘭裡面那你要大家如何自處我們派一個閃兵的我們派一個沒有當兵的去到芬蘭這個國家那我們自己都站不住腳啦我們今天要去談說兩岸之間的風險要去談說可能今天的所謂的國防熱性要去談說今天所謂的相關的威脅那你說芬蘭要加入北約"},{"start":286.863,"end":293.393,"text":"但是結果我們派去的大使連兵都沒有做過連中華民國的兵都沒有做過這樣子的情況你覺得合適嗎"},{"start":295.9,"end":320.633,"text":"這個部分會由他當事人來做說明當事人做說明我們在派遣他的時候那沒有想過這個問題嗎因為林昶佐委員沒有當兵這是大家都知道的事情林昶佐委員擔任228的董事沒有出席這也是大家都知道的事情我們先前沒有針對這個部分去做考量就會被大家認為是酬庸所以我希望部長您也可以特別注意這一點這不是酬庸啦是說民眾大家的感受就是酬庸啦"},{"start":325.436,"end":338.204,"text":"你們有你們的任命你們有你們的任命的權利你們有你們任命的權利但是民眾也會民眾自己有自我的這個公平在心中另外我想要問的是有關於這個365天嘛賴清德總統這個上任的總體檢那這個在最近喔那就昨天吧就公布了一個"},{"start":346.389,"end":349.651,"text":"Podcast的專訪那裡面這個賴清德總統講到關於兩岸之間的關係所以我們今天這是外交部可是兩岸跟外交之間現在也有非常密切的關聯性那賴清德總統他說"},{"start":361.559,"end":389.6,"text":"中國是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司如果你要併我的公司你要提條件啊不是台灣來提條件那我對於這樣的併購所以本人是沒有辦法接受的因為我覺得在任何情況之下第一個兩岸之間不是公司第二個也沒有所謂的併購不管對岸提了什麼樣的條件我們都不能去接受而且我們是反對被中共單方面的去併吞要支持中華民國的主權跟主體性的"},{"start":390.04,"end":410.829,"text":"那另外當加拿大總理卡尼跟川普總統見面的時候大家知道川普有一度說他們要併吞這個加拿大那加拿大的總理說什麼呢他們說加拿大是非賣品永遠不賣所以我想要問一下賴清德總統他把這個中共跟中華民國形容成大小公司的這個併購說那甚至說大陸可以提條件"},{"start":413.77,"end":433.675,"text":"這個話之後有沒有任何外管或智庫對於這樣子的說法對外交部有產生一些討論或是傳遞任何的訊息有沒有什麼要去做澄清的這是比喻啦我想不管是這個比喻合適嗎我意思是說不管主權或產權或人權都是不可以被併吞的啦"},{"start":434.435,"end":439.517,"text":"當然啊 那為什麼要講說 講說並購說的人又不是我 是賴清德賴總統啊我們是反對的啊 我們沒有任由台灣是中華人民共和國的一部分我們是反對的 但是提出說可以併我的公司要提條件 這個是賴清德總統說的 所以我要問的是"},{"start":457.682,"end":464.229,"text":"在這番言論出來之後國際上面有沒有任何的相關反應來詢問這句話到底是什麼意思這個應該去問中國啦對對我在問說來問因為這是賴總統講的話這不是習近平講的話所以我要問的是說在這番話出來以後"},{"start":474.679,"end":491.417,"text":"有沒有任何外管或是外部人員智庫人員來詢問為什麼賴清德總統會講出這句話因為這讓我也感到非常意外因為他這樣的說法我個人是完全不能接受的你不能只看這一段你要看這段我看全部了但是這一段話他確實就是這個比喻是否適當"},{"start":493.699,"end":502.703,"text":"台灣的主權屬於我們國民全體我們是民主國家產生的政權只有我們台灣人民可以決定我們自己的未來連提條件都不應該你就不應該講說大陸你可以來提條件這句話如果由我來講請問會得到多少的抨擊中國根本就不提條件所以這個就是有點用弓矢之盾"},{"start":519.269,"end":547.388,"text":"所以你覺得這樣的說法很好可以繼續講因為他就是說我們是他的根本不帶任何條件啊我們反對啊我們反對啊我們反對啊是所以他說你要提條件啊我們當然反對被捅啊那哪有什麼公司大公司小公司的差別啊我沒有覺得說中國大陸是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司而且還可以併購還可以提條件我沒有這樣覺得啊不是大小就可以被併人或被併那可以提條件嗎"},{"start":548.669,"end":564.398,"text":"大陸今天要跟台灣提條件可以提條件嗎?他意思是說他公佑在說我們是他的他連條件都不提他對我們不是他要打我們他沒有這樣講他說他說呢你要提條件啊上面寫得清清楚楚的那大陸沒有提條件那是他的事情但是我們的總統提到我們的總統提到說要不要提條件這個是我們的總統自己講的"},{"start":570.862,"end":591.655,"text":"所以當我們的總統自己講說大陸你可以提條件啊的時候對於中華民國包含我們的民眾來說是會有一些緊張的而且以我來說我是一個不能認同的所以我想要問的是所以最後我要問喔所以所有的外管跟智庫都沒有針對這一段話來對外交部或是說任何的相關單位提出詢問沒有"},{"start":593.576,"end":597.658,"text":"因為中共連提條件都不要這就呈現這個問題它就是併吞台灣不擇手段啊我們反對這件事情嘛那為什麼要談說公司併購的事情呢這個他們講是他們的事情可是我們的總統自己去談併購說那這當然會引發大家的質疑跟困惑嘛"},{"start":613.504,"end":619.37,"text":"所以我的意思是說要嘛外交部可以解釋可以澄清我給你們一個機會要嘛我要詢問的是有沒有人看到這個話之後覺得很奇怪來詢問為什麼賴清德總統在520的時候會講出這番話"},{"start":630.489,"end":657.031,"text":"賴總統的立場很清楚我每天都很清楚他不管是這個四個堅持或四個這個所謂和平的支柱對 但是併購說是第一次講併購說是第一次講對吧這是舉例啦對 併購說的舉例是第一次舉對吧過去沒有舉過這個例子這是第一次我想正式的那個媒體的訪問嘛對啊 第一次嘛所以我想說這個第一次那會不會有第二次 第三次 第四次如果您認為是一個很恰當的比喻的話"},{"start":659.455,"end":662.419,"text":"這是個比喻我們說這個比喻很好以後都可以經常的去做這個比喻那您認為接下來繼續用這樣子的一個比喻來類比兩岸之間的關係在國際上 在外交上來說是好還是壞"},{"start":674.315,"end":693.421,"text":"這在凸顯中共就是不會跟我們提條件嘛它就是 我們是它的就是這是前提啊一個中國的原則就是這個樣子嘛對 我們剛剛都講說我們反對被武統嘛就是說在國際上喔和平解決爭議才是前提啦和平解決爭議才是前提那對方要提條件來的話我們也可以考慮"},{"start":695.642,"end":712.188,"text":"我覺得我們不能考慮有什麼好考慮的中華民國就是我們不能推讓的底線沒有大公司跟小公司的差別也沒有訂購的可能性這是我的理想跟主張我想應該我有交給你同樣的主張這些原則我們都可以坐下來談"},{"start":713.808,"end":723.232,"text":"在國際政治上以色列跟巴勒斯坦都可以坐下來談為什麼加拿大的總理他可以直接說我們是非賣品永遠不賣然後結果在台灣我們的總統講說我們可以互相來看併購你來提條件為什麼兩國差異這麼大台灣的主權屬於國民全體所以是不是非賣品你覺得台灣中華民國是不是非賣品"},{"start":740.778,"end":743.34,"text":"我不用這個字眼因為你到時候又講說要不要賣要不要賣對 是不是非賣品嘛這個同樣是被講說可能會被訂購啊可能會被這個訂吞啊等等的加拿大為什麼可以總理講得這麼清楚就是非賣品"},{"start":755.971,"end":777.962,"text":"而我們的總統還在講什麼併購不併購所以因為時間的關係我建議外交部回去要重新包含跟總統說明這一番話已經引起台灣很多輿論的討論那即使你在這裡澄清即使你說這個賴總統的這個要交政策還有兩岸政策一向非常的清楚但是我也必須講所謂的併購是他第一次提出"},{"start":778.542,"end":804.395,"text":"如果你們覺得這種併購說的比喻非常合適的話那我來繼續提啊如果覺得不合適的話那請好可以那請修正其實賴總統這個談話的要成立的前提就台灣不是中華人民共和國的一部分台灣有辦法反那如果我們是對方的一部分我們怎麼談我們沒有要有中華民國是中華人民共和國的一部分沒有從來就沒有"},{"start":806.036,"end":821.503,"text":"比较我想这个立场很清楚就台湾不是中国的一部分中华民国当然不是中华人民共和国的一部分啊他说是我们认为不是啊他为什么说我们是他自己的一部分他想让你们一同一但我们认为不是啊这跟病毒有什么关系啊"},{"start":821.963,"end":827.769,"text":"他不是只有武力統一為什麼要講說要提條件為什麼要講說中共要提條件無論他提什麼樣的條件我們都應該要反對因為台灣是非賣品那他提了什麼條件他沒有提條件所以不管今天中國大陸要提什麼條件我們站在中華民國的主權立場上我們都要反對的啊"},{"start":844.933,"end":872.211,"text":"這好像跟貴黨的立場有一點不一樣沒有 完全沒有 是你不瞭解我的立場沒有 是你不瞭解我的立場並沒有 我認為中華民國就是非賣品我認為中華民國就是非賣品沒錯 所以不應該講什麼辦 並不併購這樣子的一個比喻並不併購的這樣的比喻 我認為是不恰當的因為中華民國是非賣品 謝謝好 中華 我要講 不管台灣也好 中華民國也好都不是中華民國的一部分"},{"start":873.476,"end":879.823,"text":"我必須說我剛剛也從來沒有說是一部分中華民國絕對不是中華人民共和國的一部分謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":224,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時20分）謝謝主席，我們有請林佳龍部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。今天大家都非常關注關於林昶佐前委員的人事任命案，您剛剛也鬆口了，這個任命案正在辦理當中，您剛剛在其他委員的質詢當中提到了，因為林昶佐前委員過去參與過很多，比方重金屬音樂是芬蘭民眾很喜歡的文化，所以出任芬蘭大使您覺得是有幫助的。但對一般民眾來說，我必須坦白地講，就是酬庸。87%的芬蘭民眾使用芬蘭語，請問一下，林昶佐未來擔任大使時應該要如何跟芬蘭的政界及民眾溝通？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，芬蘭人幾乎都會講英語，都可以講，北歐的國家很國際化。"],["徐委員巧芯：可以講，但是87%……因為我去過，那邊民眾講的及官員講的都是芬蘭語，除非你必須要跟他講英文，而且林昶佐前委員的英文程度如何，我也沒有把握。請問一下，這樣子的語言是否未來是需要事務官的協助？仍然需要外交體系的事務官去協助他跟芬蘭的政府要員做溝通？"],["林部長佳龍：外交部會講芬蘭語的我可能要做個調查，如果要這樣的標準，當然就是很嚴格，基本上我們會有一些工作階層……"],["徐委員巧芯：如果是直接在芬蘭的所有外交官要往上的話，就是剛剛馬文君委員講的，如果原本派任的要往上升的話，第一個，他對於芬蘭相關的政治是理解的；第二個，不管是用英語或是芬蘭語，他都是能夠雙管齊下的。今天林昶佐的人事案，他未來勢必需要有翻譯或者由事務官擔任翻譯，那為什麼不直接由事務官去擔任？這個是大家覺得有所質疑的地方，如果今天沒有外交的專業，只是因為他過去有所表演就可以滿足所謂的外交，那就叫他多去表演、多去唱歌就好了啊！為什麼要擔任大使呢？"],["林部長佳龍：其實現在在那邊擔任快6年的張秀禎代表即將內定回來接國傳司司長，他也不會講芬蘭語，你看他可以促成臺灣跟芬蘭的航權談判。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼不讓類似的人繼續擔任？"],["林部長佳龍：英語是國際共通的語言。"],["徐委員巧芯：為什麼不讓類似的人繼續擔任類似的職務？而是用這種讓大家認為是酬庸的方法去聘用一個曾經只是在臺灣擔任立法委員的人？","我要講的是，如果這個人是非常認真工作的話，那也未嘗不可，可是部長，林昶佐前委員在2007年受邀擔任二二八事件基金會董事的時候，您剛剛說他的一個重點在於人權，二二八事件基金會當然是一個重要的人權委員會，你知道在第6屆第2任期裡面基金會所開的15次董事會議林昶佐前委員參加過幾次嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：這個細節我不了解。"],["徐委員巧芯：只有去過1次，在您剛剛所說這麼重要的一個人權相關組織裡面開了15次會議只有1次的出席，出席率是6.7%，引發了二二八事件受難者家屬的批評，質疑他對轉型正義的認真程度。他在臺灣擔任二二八董事時的出席率都只有6.7%，如果他到芬蘭，你怎麼有能力去確認他能夠勝任這個工作呢？他在臺灣都做不好了，你覺得他到芬蘭能夠做得好？這也是讓我覺得很奇怪的事。","另外，我要請教兵役的問題，在芬蘭的兵役裡面，請問如果有逃兵、假病的情況，在芬蘭有沒有相關的法律後果？或者是您對於芬蘭的兵役制度有沒有了解？他們是不是有要求強制必須要當兵才能夠符合芬蘭的相關法律？"],["林部長佳龍：有。"],["徐委員巧芯：有嘛！所以他們有分成軍事服役，最起碼要當五個月多以上。但現在要派去的林昶佐大使完全沒有當過兵，這種情況在芬蘭裡面你要大家如何自處？我們派一個閃兵的、我們派一個沒有當兵的去到芬蘭這個國家，我們自己都站不住腳啦！我們今天要去談兩岸之間的風險、要去談所謂的國防韌性、要去談所謂的相關威脅，你說芬蘭要加入北約，但是結果我們派去的大使連兵都沒有做過，連中華民國的兵都沒有做過，這樣子的情況，你覺得合適嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：這個部分會由當事人來做說明，他也有所說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：當事人說明，我們在派任他的時候沒有想過這個問題嗎？因為林昶佐委員沒有當兵是大家都知道的事情，林昶佐委員擔任二二八的董事但沒有出席，這也是大家都知道的事情，我們先前沒有針對這個部分去做考量，就會被大家認為是酬庸，所以我希望部長也可以特別注意這一點。"],["林部長佳龍：這不是酬庸啦！他是夠資格啦……"],["徐委員巧芯：我說民眾大家的感受就是酬庸嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：至於說任用的考量，有我們整體的考量……"],["徐委員巧芯：你們有你們任命的權力，但是民眾也會有自我的公評在心中。","另外，我想要問的是有關於365天，賴清德總統上任的總體檢，昨天就公布了一個Podcast專訪，在裡面賴清德總統講到關於兩岸之間的關係，雖然今天來的是外交部，可是兩岸跟外交之間現在也有非常密切的關聯性，賴清德總統說，中國是比較大的公司，臺灣是比較小的公司，如果你要併我的公司，你要提條件啊，不是臺灣來提條件。對於這樣的併購說，我本人是沒有辦法接受的，因為我覺得在任何情況之下，第一個，兩岸之間不是公司；第二個，也沒有所謂的併購。不管對岸提了什麼樣的條件，我們都不能去接受，而且我們是反對被中共單方面的併吞，要支持中華民國的主權跟主體性的。","另外，當加拿大總理卡尼跟川普總統見面的時候，大家知道川普一度說他們要併吞加拿大，加拿大的總理說什麼呢？他說加拿大是非賣品，永遠不賣。所以我想要問一下，賴清德總統把中共跟中華民國形容成大小公司的併購說，甚至說大陸可以提條件，說了這個話之後，有沒有任何外館或智庫，對於這樣的說法，對外交部有產生一些討論或是傳遞任何的訊息？有沒有什麼要去做澄清的？"],["林部長佳龍：這是比喻啦，我想不管……"],["徐委員巧芯：可是這個比喻合適嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：我的意思是說，不管主權或產權或人權都是不可以被併吞的啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：當然啊，那為什麼要講說……"],["林部長佳龍：我們國家的主權是不能被……"],["徐委員巧芯：講併購說的人又不是我，是賴清德賴總統耶！"],["林部長佳龍：他們說臺灣是中華人民共和國的一部分，就是要把我們併吞啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：那我們是反對的啊！我們沒有認為臺灣是中華人民共和國的一部分啊！"],["林部長佳龍：有另外一個國家或公司說我們是他們的一部分，我們當然都反對嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：我們是反對的，但是提出說可以併我的公司要提條件，這個是賴清德總統說的。所以我要問的是，在這番言論出來之後，國際上面有沒有任何的相關反應或是來詢問這句話到底是什麼意思？"],["林部長佳龍：這個應該去問中國啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：不是、不是，我是說來問的，因為這是賴總統講的話，這不是習近平講的話……"],["林部長佳龍：他的立場很清楚啊。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我要問的是說，在這番話出來以後，有沒有任何外館或是外部人員、智庫人員來詢問，為什麼賴清德總統會講出這一席話？這讓我也感到非常意外，因為他這樣的說法，我個人是完全不能接受的。"],["林部長佳龍：你不能只看這一段，你要看整個……"],["徐委員巧芯：我有看全部了，但是這一段話他確實就是……"],["林部長佳龍：這個比喻是說……"],["徐委員巧芯：這個比喻是否失當？"],["林部長佳龍：臺灣的主權屬於我們國民全體啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：當然啊！"],["林部長佳龍：我們是民主國家產生的政府……"],["徐委員巧芯：那能夠併購嗎？能讓對岸提條件嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：只有我們臺灣人民能決定我們自己的未來啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：連提條件都不應該嘛！你就不應該說大陸可以來提條件啊！"],["林部長佳龍：委員！您……"],["徐委員巧芯：這句話如果由我來講，請問會受到多少抨擊？為什麼賴清德總統……"],["林部長佳龍：中國根本就不提條件，所以這個就是有點用子之矛攻子之盾嘛！因為……"],["徐委員巧芯：哇，所以你覺得這樣的說法很好，可以繼續講！"],["林部長佳龍：因為他就說我們是他的，根本不帶任何條件啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：我們反對啊！我們反對啊！"],["林部長佳龍：我們反對啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：是，所以他說你要提條件啊！"],["林部長佳龍：我們反對被統嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：我們當然反對被統啊！所以……"],["林部長佳龍：對啊！那好啊，要支持賴總統啊……"],["徐委員巧芯：那哪有什麼大公司、小公司的差別啊？我沒有覺得中國大陸是比較大的公司，臺灣是比較小的公司，而且還可以併購、還可以提條件，我沒有這樣覺得啊！"],["林部長佳龍：不是大小就可以併人或被併啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：那可以提條件嗎？大陸今天要跟臺灣提條件，可以提條件嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：這個意思是說，中共現在說我們是他的，他連條件都不提，他說我們不是，他就要打我們耶……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有喔！沒有喔！他沒有這樣講！他說你要提條件啊，上面寫得清清楚楚的，大陸沒有提條件那是他的事情……"],["林部長佳龍：和平的方式，他提什麼我們都可以聽聽，但武力併臺我們不可以接受。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是我們的總統提到說要不要提條件，這個是我們的總統自己講的，所以當我們的總統自己講說大陸可以提條件的時候，對於中華民國，包含我們的民眾來說，是會有一些緊張的，而且以我來說，我是不能認同的。"],["林部長佳龍：其實賴總統的立場大家都很清楚。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我想要問的是，最後我要問的是，所有的外館跟智庫都沒有針對這番話對外交部或是任何相關單位提出詢問？沒有？"],["林部長佳龍：因為中共連提條件都不要，這就呈現這個問題，他就是併吞臺灣不擇手段啊！文攻武嚇啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：我們反對這件事情嘛，那為什麼要談公司併購的事情呢？他們講是他們的事情，可是我們的總統自己去談併購說，這當然會引發大家的質疑跟困惑嘛！所以我的意思是說，要嘛外交部可以解釋、可以澄清，我給你們一個機會；要嘛我要詢問的是，有沒有人在看到這個話之後覺得很奇怪，然後來詢問為什麼賴清德總統在520的時候會講出這番話？"],["林部長佳龍：賴總統的立場很清楚，我每天都很清楚，他不管是四個堅持或四個所謂和平的支柱，他所有的……"],["徐委員巧芯：但是併購說是第一次講，併購說是第一次講，對吧？"],["林部長佳龍：這是舉例啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：併購說的舉例是第一次，對吧？過去沒有舉過這個例子，這是第一次。"],["林部長佳龍：我想正式的媒體的訪問嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊，第一次嘛，所以我想要說這個是第一次，那會不會有第二次、第三次、第四次？如果您認為是一個很恰當的比喻的話。"],["林部長佳龍：這是個比喻，賴總統的立場非常清楚……"],["徐委員巧芯：對嘛，我們說這個比喻如果很好，以後就可以經常地去做這個比喻，您認為接下來繼續用這樣一個比喻來類比兩岸之間的關係，在國際上、在外交上來說是好還是壞？"],["林部長佳龍：這在凸顯中共就是不會跟我們提條件嘛，他就是認為我們是他的，這是前提啊！一個中國的原則就是這個樣子嘛！所以……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們剛剛都講說我們反對被武統嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：這凸顯在國際上和平解決爭議才是前提啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：和平解決爭議才是前提，那對方要提條件……"],["林部長佳龍：他要以武力併吞臺灣嘛！"],["徐委員巧芯：他提條件來的話，我們也可以考慮？"],["林部長佳龍：欸……"],["徐委員巧芯：我覺得我們不能考慮啦，有什麼好考慮的！"],["林部長佳龍：要坐下來……"],["徐委員巧芯：中華民國就是我們不能退讓的底線，沒有大公司跟小公司的差別，也沒有併購的可能性，這是我的立場跟主張，我想應該外交部也要有同樣的主張！"],["林部長佳龍：基於對等、尊嚴，還有互惠，這些原則我們都可以坐下來談。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們覺得可以坐下來談？"],[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有個人推個人 像我們一般民眾個人我們所稱P2P Person to Person 那就不會那商業的都Business to Customer就會經過那這個像現在大家這樣子大量收到的這種齁這種這個政治性簡訊或是這些商業廣告簡訊我這樣子看 我現在要釐清的就是說這個"},{"start":86.334,"end":115.034,"text":"這個所發送的門號我這樣聽起來好像有兩種方式一種是我簡訊代發業者我提供門號給你說請你幫我發這些是不是這樣子然後另外一種是我說我要哪一個區域因為你們有提供靜態跟動態的這個服務那這個簡訊代發服務有一種叫做靜態定位發訊以及即時動態發訊是你們有提供的服務對不對那我簡訊業者提說我希望鎖定中山大同"},{"start":115.994,"end":132.592,"text":"中山區跟大同區的這個發放然後之後由你們透過這個LBS的技術來發放對不對是不是這樣根本報告技術上確實有LBS但是在個案上經過我們行政調查三家都沒有提供的LBS服務所以沒有提供LBS服務"},{"start":133.513,"end":154.659,"text":"只有這個個案也沒有但是像我們地震等等之類的它區域型的它也是另類廣義的區域簡訊服務這種區域簡訊服務我們現在中華電信要不要講一下你們現在有沒有提供這個區域區域簡訊服務有沒有我們在區域簡訊的服務目前大概都是在比如說百貨公司或者是活動的人潮書上因為剛才我們主席吳宗憲"},{"start":155.459,"end":170.589,"text":"主席在這邊問的就是這個啊你們現在到底有沒有提供區域簡訊服務區域簡訊服務是有提供有提供嘛LBS有提供所以這個業者所以我簡訊代發業者可以說我現在希望我鎖定松山區的門號請你們幫我發可以嗎"},{"start":174.271,"end":190.215,"text":"我先跟委員補充一下 那個所謂的下單 事實上我們在三位簡訊的部分就網路有簡訊廣播跟簡訊特碼兩個機制那我們跟簡訊代理商那邊對 但這個就是一個契約嘛這個就是一個契約行為 不管你是透過網路還是透過什麼當然不是說坐下來簽個契約才叫契約嘛"},{"start":197.476,"end":204.583,"text":"對 然後他前端的這一個科委託他去簡單講你們有沒有提供區域有沒有提供區域簡訊服務啦我們有提供區域簡訊服務那你們提供區域簡訊服務之後會不會把這些門號再回報給業者說我傳了這些不會不會"},{"start":213.511,"end":240.65,"text":"這些我業者我只知道說我今天希望你們傳給松山區但是你們傳給誰我業者不知道對不對區域檢訊服務的部分區域檢訊服務我不會回拿到說你們傳了哪一些我就可以知道哪一些門號是松山區的不會嘛對不對也跟委員補充報告要提供LBS服務必須要用戶自己同意同意電信公司提供那各自的提供第三方的目的外使用要用戶自己同意"},{"start":241.01,"end":258.362,"text":"所以現在即使你們有提供這種區域簡訊的服務但是事實上這個發送要來跟你們希望你們發送的這個人他並不會知道得到這些訊息說哪一些門號是在這個區域裡面他可以得到這個訊息你們會回報給他說我傳了這些門號"},{"start":262.939,"end":281.843,"text":"會嗎?我們今天調查的結果是不會,那個報導是他的描述,事實我們調查的結果不是這樣子的不是這樣嗎?所以剛剛講的那些說什麼透過這些發放之後他就可以掌握了你今天有沒有去這個百貨公司,你今天有沒有去哪裡事實上這個發放者沒有辦法掌握,他根本不知道發給誰對不對他只知道發給這個區域的人,是不是這樣?"},{"start":285.885,"end":314.401,"text":"各位報的是我們不會交付任何資料再給業者是這樣就釐清啦就釐清不要好像就剛剛講的好像哇這些業者這些他發了這些大團發了之後他就可以知道哪一些人在哪裡活動哪一些人去哪裡事實上他得這個發送者得不到這個訊息啦而且更何況齁這個根據這個這個我們目前的電信管理法第八條的規定齁你們中華電信是不得拒絕發不得拒絕傳送訊息的捏"},{"start":316.683,"end":342.039,"text":"根據第八條我今天只要這個是保障通信秘密無正當理由你們就不得拒絕發送傳遞訊息對不對是的沒錯所以吳宗憲要求你們不能發送這個訊息這樣看起來目前按照這個電信管理法第八條目前是不是屬於無正當理由我們還要再來討論對不對"},{"start":346.414,"end":369.484,"text":"好來 你有講什麼話我等一下會秀給你看會秀給你看 時間給我退回去我沒有講那句話你不要亂講話 你在這邊怎麼亂引用我講的時間給我退回去 可以嗎主席沒問題 那個時間先把它中斷15秒沒有我跟你講 我們彼此互相尊重不要講我沒講過的話我知道 我也是很尊重你"},{"start":370.004,"end":398.283,"text":"我們彼此尊重你可以質疑我講但你不要引用我沒講的話我沒有要叫他們不要傳簡訊啦我剛剛哪有講這句話你在我面前講我沒講過的話你剛剛說傳送這些訊息現在進來很多霸團在傳送這些訊息會讓大家掌握這些個資但我沒有講說叫他們不要傳送你不可以在我面前說我沒講的話簡單講這些團體發送者他掌握不到這些個資的個資還是在你們手上"},{"start":399.844,"end":417.15,"text":"你們電信業者的手上,並不在這些發送人的手上再來,我們現在齁好,好,主席,你就不要再跟我吵架了來,好,我等一下會講你講過的來,稍安勿躁,稍安勿躁,來好,那這個齁,我們這個依照這個各自保護法齁"},{"start":425.046,"end":449.579,"text":"有關第十九條第一項跟第二十條第一項它分別有規範有關於非公務機關對於個人資料的這個收集跟處理十九條第一項是收集跟處理第二十條是有關這些個資的利用都有規定並且有罰則對不對罰則在第四十一條都有罰則對不對那個是沒錯是齁對那我們剛剛講的"},{"start":453.191,"end":457.436,"text":"也有這個簡訊帶售業者我提供門號給你請你們傳這個簡訊這些簡訊帶售業者他們所收集處理利用的這些個資有沒有違反這兩條"},{"start":468.454,"end":496.332,"text":"我們調查個案他是接受他的企業客戶的下單來處理所以他他這個規定來到法律明文這幾篇洋洋灑灑都有八款有八款有九款的規定不管是他自己或者他的企業客戶如果有違反他要負這個法律責任對對對好所以如果啦假設假設有這個這個有這個簡訊代發業者他違反了這個那你們一定會追究他的責任對不對"},{"start":497.763,"end":509.025,"text":"會由相關主管機關來追究他的責任接下來下一頁主席這是你講過的主席要不要認證一下,時間暫停讓主席認證一下,這個是你講過的吳宗憲接著指出,雖然電信業者說這是供企業商務服務使用但是什麼時候變成政治連署使用,要不要處罰NCC"},{"start":524.778,"end":539.397,"text":"這個NCC也不見了他覺得任何事情都雙標民眾各自被拿去使用這是你說的這我講的沒有錯但是我必須在這邊講一個點我們今天對於公家機關的質詢人民對公家機關有意見我們來這邊質詢"},{"start":541.139,"end":561.066,"text":"結果有的人是來這裡趕快幫公家機關護航立法委員是質疑他們的點 讓他們來告訴國人哪一些東西對 哪一些東西要被懷疑 哪一些東西大家要注意不是在這裡 像你 沒關係啦對 這是我講的 但是我有我的質疑點 我盡到我立法委員的義務主席你至少要補一分鐘 至少要補一分鐘"},{"start":566.748,"end":588.899,"text":"發會委員 補兩分鐘給他我說我有講過的話歡迎批評我沒有講過的話好啦 主席你要補兩分鐘給他講了我沒講的話補兩分鐘給他那我如果這樣對你你們會我現在好我現在問你這個事主席我還讓你再確認一下是不是你講過的話嘛對不對好來下一頁好請繼續下一頁我吼我因為答到今天的題目吼"},{"start":590,"end":617.939,"text":"我們也拿不到個資我們也收集不到什麼所以我就把我們的助理全部集合啦齁大家把那個簡訊齁自己收過的政治簡訊大家回溯一直看看看這個都是我助理我自己跟我的助理以前在自己現在還在手機裡面收過的這些政治性簡訊啦齁這個給大家看一下有關罷免的部分就是今天我們主席排這個主題的齁這是2016年這個蔡正元的罷免案的時候"},{"start":618.959,"end":631.856,"text":"蔡正元所發的轉發通知請共同拒絕2月14日的罷免來再來等一下等一下我先我在說明這個之前我先跟大家報告一件事情"},{"start":633.973,"end":655.681,"text":"有關於宣傳罷免到底是合法還是不合法這個其實非常清楚,因為在2016年的時候對不起,現在請法務部上來好了這個是法務部選罷法應該是內政部,中選會今天有來嗎中選會,中選會,對不起,部長不好意思"},{"start":663.077,"end":689.334,"text":"我們在2016年11月29立法院刪除通過了選罷法第86條第三項本來有規定說除了徵求連署之必要活動之外不得有其他鼓吹罷免或阻止罷免的宣傳活動這一條是不是刪除了現在是可以宣傳的"},{"start":689.761,"end":714.909,"text":"支持或反對罷免案都可以宣傳不管你宣傳罷免鼓勵罷免他過去是用鼓動鼓動罷免或者是這個宣傳阻止罷免的宣傳活動都是合法的嘛對不對都是合法跟選舉活動一樣是合法的對不對從事支持或反對罷免案的宣傳宣傳都跟選舉的宣傳一樣都是合法的對不對法律允許的對好謝謝"},{"start":716.229,"end":742.188,"text":"好 所以我現在我來講這個我沒有講說這個到底是不是合法的齁這個就是我們今天主席排這個案子就是因為他認為這些有疑慮所以我來看看有疑慮的來 下一個這個是王浩宇罷免案的時候這個滷蛋快報這個滷蛋快報的滷蛋是誰齁這個這個這個大家看來這個明天1月16號罷王任務懇請大家站出來投票好 下一個"},{"start":744.41,"end":772.387,"text":"來有關選舉的選舉罷免的這個是中國國民黨台北市黨部發的總統選舉請集中支持3號侯康佩政黨票投9號中國國民黨立法委員打打打張世剛游殊惠打打打來下一個來各位好朋友這蔣萬安發的台北市長蔣萬安親自發的政治性簡訊各位好友侯友宜台北市團結造勢大會定於11月6日4號下午2點半在台北市政府警區歡迎參加來下一個"},{"start":774.2,"end":796.898,"text":"來這是我們本院同仁齁這個週六上午十點大安立委候選人的總副主席歡迎共襄盛舉這羅志強的來下一個來各位好朋友明天就是投票日請您一定要來這也是我們的同仁齁洪孟凱的來下一個來感謝您的支持讓習青台北市議會議長齁帶習青讓習青能夠連任第五屆議員的這個是不是商業的還是政治性的來下一個"},{"start":798.481,"end":825.777,"text":"告急這個新北市議員選情告急 明天投票懇請相親來 下一個來 這個這個台北市議員向您告急這個是政治性選舉還是商業簡訊 下一個齊獨市市議員問政品質服務 懇請支持我念不完啦 我念不完 各位啊 這個是什麼這個不是雙標 什麼是雙標現在合法的 我剛剛講"},{"start":827.983,"end":831.632,"text":"這個選罷法已經修改了現在宣傳罷免鼓吹罷免是合法的"},{"start":832.861,"end":848.507,"text":"那發這個合法的簡訊跟這個政治的簡訊過去發了這麼多都沒問題今天不過說一個合法的宣傳罷免就拿來這裡辦專案會議然後來含沙射影說好像這個罷免這個是違法的為什麼不辦為什麼不辦要辦剛剛我說所列出來全部一起辦好不好以上"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":551,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時16分）主席，先請NCC及中華電信。"],["主席：請NCC及中華電信。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：剛才聽前面委員的質詢，大家針對簡訊發送的問題，詢問國家通傳會跟中華電信。因為有一些部分我想需要釐清，第一個，現在我們所收到的這些簡訊，不管是商業廣告也好，或是政治簡訊也好，都是透過簡訊代發業者來跟各大電信公司下單的商業行為，對不對？現在是不是這樣？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：有兩種，如果是個人對個人，像一般民眾個人就是我們所稱P2P（person-to-person），那就不會經過簡訊代發業者；商業的Business to Consumer，那就會經過簡訊代發業者。"],["沈委員發惠：像現在大家大量收到的這種政治性簡訊或是商業廣告簡訊，我現在要釐清的是這個所發送的門號，我這樣聽起來好像有兩種方式：一種是簡訊代發業者提供門號給你們，然後請你們幫忙發送，是不是這樣子？另外一種是我說我要哪一個區域，因為你們有提供靜態跟動態的簡訊代發服務，也就是靜態定位發訊以及即時動態發訊，這些都是你們有提供的服務對不對？簡訊業者說希望鎖定中山區及大同區的發放，之後由你們透過LBS的技術來發放，對不對？是不是這樣？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，技術上確實有LBS，但是就個案上，經過我們行政調查，三家都沒有提供LBS服務。"],["沈委員發惠：所以沒有提供LBS服務？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：就這個個案也沒有，但是像地震等等之類是區域型的，它也是另類廣義的LBS服務。"],["沈委員發惠：針對這種區域簡訊服務，中華電信要不要講一下，你們現在有沒有提供區域簡訊服務？"],["林執行副總經理文智：我們在區域簡訊服務，目前大概都是在百貨公司或是活動的人潮疏散……"],["沈委員發惠：因為剛才主席吳宗憲在這邊問的就是這個啊！你們現在到底有沒有提供區域簡訊服務？"],["林執行副總經理文智：區域簡訊服務是有提供……"],["沈委員發惠：LBS有提供嘛！"],["林執行副總經理文智：但是……"],["沈委員發惠：所以簡訊代發業者可以說他現在希望鎖定松山區的門號，請你們幫他發，可以嗎？"],["林執行副總經理文智：我先跟委員補充一下，關於所謂的下單，事實上我們在商業簡訊的部分，就網路有簡訊廣播跟簡訊特碼兩個機制，我們跟簡訊代理商那邊……"],["沈委員發惠：但這就是一個契約嘛！它就是一個契約行為，不管你是透過網路還是透過什麼，當然不是說坐下來簽個契約才叫契約嘛！"],["林執行副總經理對文智：對，然後他前端客戶委託他去做發送。"],["沈委員發惠：簡單講，你們有沒有提供區域簡訊服務？"],["林執行副總經理文智：我們有提供區域簡訊服務。"],["沈委員發惠：有嘛！有提供，那你們提供區域簡訊服務之後，會不會把這些門號再回報給業者說你傳了這些？"],["林執行副總經理文智：不會。"],["沈委員發惠：不會？"],["林執行副總經理文智：不會。"],["沈委員發惠：所以這些業者只知道他今天希望你們傳松山區，但是你們傳給誰，業者不知道，對不對？"],["林執行副總經理文智：在區域簡訊服務的部分，我們不會……"],["沈委員發惠：區域簡訊服務他不會拿到你們傳了哪一些，他就可以知道哪些門號是松山區的？"],["林執行副總經理文智：不會。"],["沈委員發惠：不會嘛！對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：也跟委員補充報告，提供LBS服務必須要用戶自己同意電信公司提供，就是個資提供第三方之目的外使用要用戶自己同意。"],["沈委員發惠：所以現在即使你們有提供這種區域簡訊服務，但是事實上希望你們發送的人並不會得到這些訊息說哪一些門號是在這個區域裡面，你們會回報給他說你傳了這些門號，會嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：我們經調查的結果是不會，那個報導是他的描述，我們調查的結果，事實不是這樣子。"],["沈委員發惠：不是這樣嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對。"],["沈委員發惠：所以剛剛講的，說什麼透過這些發放之後，他就可以掌握你今天有沒有去這個百貨公司、你今天有沒有去哪裡，事實上發放者沒有辦法掌握，他根本不知道發給誰，對不對？他只知道發給這個區域的人，是不是這樣？"],["林執行副總經理文智：跟委員報告，是，我們不會交付任何資料給業者。"],["沈委員發惠：好，這樣就釐清了，剛剛講的，哇！這些業者、這些罷團發了之後，他就可以知道哪一些人在哪裡活動、哪一些人去哪裡，事實上發送者得不到這個訊息，更何況根據目前電信管理法第八條的規定，中華電信是不得拒絕傳送訊息的，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：對，沒錯。"],["沈委員發惠：根據第八條，今天只要保障通信秘密，無正當理由，你們就不得拒絕發送傳遞訊息，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是的，沒錯。"],["沈委員發惠：所以吳宗憲要求你們不能發送這個訊息，這樣看起來目前按照電信管理法第八條是不是屬於無正當理由，我們還要再來討論，對不對？"],["主席：我沒有耶！你不要亂講話，我沒有講這句話。"],["沈委員發惠：你有講什麼話，我等一下會秀給你看。"],["主席：可以啦！你可以……我沒有講那句話，你不要亂講。"],["沈委員發惠：好，會秀給你看，你時間給我退回去。"],["主席：不是，我沒有講那句話，你不要亂講話，你在亂引用我講的。"],["沈委員發惠：時間給我退回去，可以嗎？主席，因為你……"],["主席：沒問題，時間先中斷15秒。","沒有，我跟你講，委員，我們彼此互相尊重，不要講我沒講過的話。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道，我一直很尊重你，但是你要自重。"],["主席：對，我們彼此尊重，你可以質疑我講的，但是你不要引用我沒講的話。"],["沈委員發惠：好，我會引用你……"],["主席：我沒有叫他們不要傳簡訊，我剛剛哪有講這句話。"],["沈委員發惠：你剛剛說……"],["主席：你在我面前講我沒講過的話，我當然抗議啊！"],["沈委員發惠：你剛剛說傳送這些訊息……現在近來很多罷團在傳送這些訊息會讓大家掌握這些個資。"],["主席：對，我有講，但我沒有講叫他們不要傳送，你不可以在我面前說我沒講的話。"],["沈委員發惠：簡單講，這些團體、發送者掌握不到這些個資的，個資還是在電信業者的手上，並不在這些發送人的手上。再來，我們現在……"],["主席：彼此尊重。"],["沈委員發惠：好，主席，你就不要再跟我吵架了。"],["主席：不要講別人沒講過的……"],["沈委員發惠：我等一下會講你講過的。"],["主席：你可以啦……"],["沈委員發惠：稍安勿躁，稍安勿躁。","依照個資保護法有關第十九條第一項跟第二十條第一項分別有規範關於非公務機關對於個人資料的蒐集或處理，第十九條第一項是蒐集或處理，第二十條是有關這些個資的利用，都有規定並且有罰則，罰則在第四十一條都有罰則，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是，沒錯。"],["沈委員發惠：我們剛剛講的，也有簡訊代送業者提供門號給你，請你們傳簡訊，這些簡訊代送業者他們所蒐集、處理、利用的這些個資有沒有違反這兩條？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：以我們調查的個案，他是接受他的企業客戶的下單來處理。"],["沈委員發惠：這邊都有規定，法律明文洋洋灑灑有八款的規定。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：不管是他自己或者他的企客，如果有違反，他要負法律責任。"],["沈委員發惠：對，所以假設有簡訊代發業者違反了，那你們一定會追究他的責任，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：會由相關主管機關來追究他的責任。"],["沈委員發惠：好，OK。接下來下一頁，主席，這個就是你講過的，主席要不要認證一下，時間暫停，讓主席認證一下，這個是你講過的，TVBS報導「吳宗憲接著指出，雖然電信業者說這是供企業商務服務使用，但是什麼時候變成做政治連署使用？要不要處罰？NCC也不見了，他覺得任何事情都雙標。民眾個資被拿去使用……」這是你說的。"],["主席：我講一下，這是我講的沒有錯，但是我必須在這邊講一個點，我們今天對於公家機關的質詢，人民對公家機關有意見，我們來這邊質詢，結果有的人是來這裡趕快幫公家機關護航，立法委員是質疑他們的點，讓他們來告訴國人哪一些東西對、哪一些東西被懷疑、哪一些東西大家要注意……"],["沈委員發惠：時間怎麼沒有暫停，現在是主席在發表講話。"],["主席：不是在這裡像你……"],["陳委員培瑜：時間暫停。"],["主席：好，沒關係啦！對，這是我講的，但是我有我的質疑點，我盡到我立法委員的義務……"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，你至少要補1分鐘，這邊都是你在講……"],["陳委員培瑜：主席，你時間要還給他，主席……"],["主席：我有講過的話就好，我有講過的話歡迎批評……"],["吳委員思瑤：主席，你至少要補2分鐘給發惠委員，補2分鐘給他。"],["主席：我說我有講過的話歡迎批評，我沒有講過的話……"],["吳委員思瑤：好啦，主席你要補2分鐘給他。"],["主席：他剛剛在我面前講了我沒講的話……"],["吳委員思瑤：補2分鐘給他……"],["主席：那我如果這樣對你，你們會不會生氣？"],["吳委員思瑤：也沒有看到主席一直在打斷人家質詢。"],["沈委員發惠：好，現在問你這個是……主席，我還讓你再確認一下是不是你講過的話嘛！對不對？"],["吳委員思瑤：還要補2分鐘啦！"],["陳委員培瑜：還要再給他2分鐘。"],["主席：請繼續。"],["沈委員發惠：因為我拿到今天的題目，我們也拿不到個資，我們也蒐集不到什麼，所以我就把我們的助理全部集合，大家把自己收過的政治簡訊回溯，大家一直看，這都是我自己跟我的助理以前到現在收過還在自己手機裡面的政治性簡訊，給大家看一下，有關罷免的部分，就是今天主席排的這個主題，這是2016年蔡正元罷免案的時候，蔡正元所發的「轉發通知……請共同拒絕2月14日的罷免……」。我在說明之前，先跟大家報告一件事情，有關於宣傳罷免到底是合法還是不合法，這個其實非常清楚，因為在2016年的時候……選罷法應該是中選會，中選會今天有來嗎？"],["蔡處長金誥：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：在2016年11月29日立法院三讀通過了選罷法第八十六條第三項，本來有規定除了徵求連署之必要活動之外，不得有其他鼓吹罷免或阻止罷免的宣傳活動，這一條是不是刪除了？"],["蔡處長金誥：現在是可以宣傳了，支持或反對罷免案都可以宣傳。"],["沈委員發惠：不管你宣傳罷免、鼓勵罷免，過去是用鼓動罷免或是阻止罷免的宣傳活動都是合法的，對不對？跟選舉活動一樣是合法的，對不對？"],["蔡處長金誥：從事支持或反對罷免案的宣傳都是法律允許的。"],["沈委員發惠：跟選舉的宣傳一樣都是合法的，對不對？"],["蔡處長金誥：法律允許的。"],["沈委員發惠：好，謝謝。這個到底是不是合法的，今天主席排這個案子就是因為他認為這些有疑慮，所以我來看看有疑慮的。來，下一個，這個是王浩宇罷免案的時候，魯蛋快報的魯蛋是誰？大家看這則簡訊，「魯蛋快報：明天1月16號罷王任務，懇請大家站出來投票……」；下一個有關選舉罷免的簡訊，這個是中國國民黨臺北市黨部發的，「總統選舉請集中支持3號侯康配，政黨票投9號中國國民黨，立法委員……張斯綱……游淑慧……」；下一個，這是臺北市長蔣萬安親自發的政治性簡訊，「各位好朋友：侯友宜台北市團結造勢大會訂於11月4號(六)下午兩點半在台北市政府前舉辦……」；下一個，這是本院同仁羅智強發的，「……週六上午10點，大安立委候選人……歡迎……共襄盛舉」；下一個，「各位好朋友，明天就是投票日，請你一定要投票……」，這也是我們同仁洪孟楷的；下一個，「感謝您的支持，讓錫欽能連任第5任市議員！」這是臺北市議會議長戴錫欽的，這個是商業的還是政治性的？下一個，這是新北市議員，「選情告急！明天投票懇請鄉親……」；下一個，「臺北市議員向您告急」，這是政治性簡訊還是商業簡訊？下一個，「七堵區市議員，懇請支持問政品質服務」。我唸不完了，各位，這個是什麼？這不是雙標，什麼是雙標？我剛剛講選罷法已經修改了，現在宣傳罷免、鼓吹罷免是合法的，那發這個合法的簡訊、政治的簡訊，過去發了這麼多都沒問題，今天不過是一個合法的宣傳罷免，就拿來這裡辦專案會議，含沙射影說這個罷免是違法的，你們為什麼不辦？要辦的話，剛剛我所列出來的全部一起辦，好不好？以上。"],["主席：我們先宣告今天有委員提出臨時提案，我們依照本會往例，在本會委員發言告一段落後，預計於上午11點處理，如果到時候有委員正在詢答，該位委員詢答完畢之後就進行處理臨時提案。","沈委員，我們委員彼此尊重啦，我只是對你剛剛說我沒有講過的話，這句我有意見，其他我都沒有意見，對於社會事實，認定合法不合法或過往怎麼樣，我都沒有意見……"],["沈委員發惠：好，謝謝主席的指教，謝謝你。"],["主席：只要不要講我，我沒講過的話，硬說我有講，我只對這個有意見，其他我都非常尊重你。"],["沈委員發惠：只要不要占用我的時間指教我就好了。"],["主席：時間有倒退回去了，謝謝。","下一位我們請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","張啓楷","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","羅智強","王鴻薇","葉元之","林倩綺"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、內\n政部警政署署長、中央選舉委員會、數位發展部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有\n限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「民眾反應收到罷免連署簡訊，顯非商業廣告目的利用，質疑個資\n洩漏而侵害人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145202_00002"}}},{"id":"161537","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161537","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f03de83089dc00ffdc28de2cce2b28366acb2fe453f4508dd4ced9b5e91fca9c545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"10:19:36 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像以前那樣 看得到吃不到"},{"start":38.656,"end":57.156,"text":"應該不會 我們第一個跟委員報告 特別是委員關心的就是我們移工來 那我們產業那麼多我們應該給需要的產業盡量的開開這個口 開那個窗戶吧那這個部分我想包括芽菜啊 包括有一些東西我們都已經草皮的部分都已經讓它進來了"},{"start":59.217,"end":77.345,"text":"所以說我們的項目越來越多有芽菜有草皮有食用菇菌還有相關的這些水稻育苗這個我們開放了可是我們開放了這些我們的一個農業的部分可是我們會不會"},{"start":82.726,"end":98.204,"text":"今天我們的農業別增加了可是我們是不是真的能夠到位把我們的移工到位然後讓他們真正能夠提出申請這才是重要所以我覺得我們要注意後續的"},{"start":99.249,"end":127.926,"text":"後續的一個觀察也就是說這個農業移工新制上路之後大家有很多的期待可是期待之後呢會不會失望會變成像過去一樣雖然我們開了一個門說現在可以申請農業移工可是最後真正能夠申請的非常的爽所以部長我們要看的是後續我今天會提出這樣的一個特別叮嚀就是說我們"},{"start":128.866,"end":144.053,"text":"整個框架做得很大農業移工新制擴增至兩萬名農業的發展好像瞬間覺得我們人力充足了但是是不是如此"},{"start":145.083,"end":169.517,"text":"一個問號我們在基層都很清楚啦雖然每次標題都很大都有很多的期待可是是不是能夠轉嫁到每一個農業別是不是能夠讓每一個故宮都能夠得到他們要的人數跟標準這才是重要那另外一個部分是部長"},{"start":170.936,"end":181.733,"text":"這一次因為氣候的因素所以呢我們一件一件慢慢的所有的農業大概都已經發生了財損那麼現在"},{"start":185.578,"end":202.078,"text":"到了最後這個階段就是龍眼荔枝龍眼荔枝其實我在4月份就已經提醒了已經發公文了那麼現在所有的區公所所有的農民其實"},{"start":203.749,"end":232.412,"text":"一直跟我們說到底現在怎麼辦原本花都開得很多花整個很漂亮啦大家都想說今年應該沒問題結果不好意思都沒掉過都是空炮彈好現在龍眼跟荔枝我知道因為你們大概5月會去做再一次的一個勘栽龍眼荔枝現在5月15勘栽之後就可以確定了嗎"},{"start":234.644,"end":255.616,"text":"歷史應該是通過了嘛5月15開會就會四方會議就會過然後龍眼呢龍眼呢還沒有龍眼要晚一點怎麼晚你要跟大家告知大家知道因為你們的速度跟民眾跟農民的感覺是不一樣的"},{"start":256.361,"end":275.615,"text":"我跟委員報告就是其實從芒果龍眼荔枝的部分它的花很漂亮可是花不結果沒有用沒錯所以我們要去看它花有沒有結果然後有沒有落果所以它那個時間會慢一點但是一定是在他們採收前一定會決定好你們龍眼預計什麼時候這個可能要看當地的氣候的部分沒有現在基本上差不多這個部長署長我跟你講"},{"start":284.981,"end":286.725,"text":"大家一定都知道 現在是丹寧的時間那個花完全已經都空炮彈了啦"},{"start":292.628,"end":318.727,"text":"所以你現在荔枝是5月底荔枝是5月15號四方會刊之後大概就可以確認了好 龍眼是5月底這要確定喔5月底大概看了四方會刊之後也可以確定了這台都沒辦法修正啦依照我們在現場所看到的過去現在"},{"start":319.929,"end":342.278,"text":"的狀況其實大家心裡都有一把尺那我們也尊重所有公務人員你們比較仔細一點那也沒有問題起碼我們把時間跟民眾說跟農民說他們心裡就會知道說他們現在的狀況我都請他們先去跟區公所通報啦"},{"start":345.361,"end":363.5,"text":"那通報完要到達百分之二十的災損一定是沒問題啦那我們的荔枝五月十五要做四番會刊我們龍眼五月底這個時間拜託農糧署的部分要確定一下不然那農民的血腥放在哪裡"},{"start":365.462,"end":380.191,"text":"他們要把它處理掉也沒辦法不處理看到又覺得心裡很痛所以你讓他有一個時間點他們比較能夠處理狀況所以我們大概就把這個時間確定了好 謝謝部長"},{"start":380.771,"end":402.583,"text":"好 再來就是我們0126的這個大地震我們在預警農會我們有開了一次會議是我們經濟委員會下去的當天因為我們部長在處理我們川普關稅的問題所以沒辦法下去那當天其實我們大概都有做了一個結論就是18個農會有超過2億的這個建物整建費用其實還比較多"},{"start":409.727,"end":436.125,"text":"現在報出來橋櫃可能兩倍以上但是沒有關係其實我覺得既然要處理那就一次到位所以我覺得說當天我們有做了一個結論就是說針對玉井南化南溪大內東山佐鎮這幾個部分大概是我們的這個陳俊元市長這邊來做處理大概他們都陸續報上來對 現在已經陸續在處理了"},{"start":440.187,"end":460.602,"text":"部長 要處理的一道處理有夠啦不然這樣調查喔 一人處理這個 一人處理那個一次處理好啦因為他們也有心要處理像玉井它就要整建好幾個農會都要整建玉井南化它的臨時處所我們已經在處理了都已經找好了齁這個部分要先處理 然後在後面"},{"start":460.782,"end":472.234,"text":"就是說我們要一次整建的然後臨時處所的我們該處理該幫忙的都一次到位然後在其他的農會有各個包括我們農糧署愛林的尤其我們那個糧倉"},{"start":477.079,"end":504.613,"text":"糧倉像大內的糧倉這個部分還有我們其他的地方有一些糧倉是我們農糧署的部分然後還有我們有一些比較重要的一些必須要補助的我們都希望在藉著這個機會農糧署跟我們的輔導師應該去合作合作因為既然都解凍了"},{"start":505.493,"end":523.361,"text":"以前是說我們沒有算但是今天我們就解凍了33億我們就解凍了33億我覺得我們既然有這樣的預算我們就應該讓相關的單位有所感我們今天就要解凍了33億了所以部長這個部分再麻煩18個農會因為0126的大地震所造成的這個損害的部分"},{"start":532.224,"end":556.218,"text":"一套給處理好不要再一次兩次三次那都會痛而且花的經費又更多所以部長再拜託我想我們會盡量然後也不會說等農會送過來然後說可或不可其實在寫計劃的時候就要溝通這樣的話效果會比較快我想我們請同仁跟農會那邊來計劃所以這個部分再拜託部長謝謝"},{"start":561.271,"end":564.899,"text":"好 謝謝陳廷飛委員那下一位請楊瓊英委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":374,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（10時19分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長早。部長，我想農民移工我們已經討論很久了，從114年5月9號開始農業移工新制上路，這個部分其實大家有很多的期待，會不會像以前這樣看得到吃不到？"],["陳部長駿季：應該不會，第一個我跟委員報告，特別是委員關心的移工，我們產業那麼多，我們應該給需要的產業儘量的開他們需求的窗戶，這個部分我想包括芽菜，還有一些東西像草皮的部分，我們都已經讓它進來了，所以我們有簡化。"],["陳委員亭妃：是啊！我們的項目越來越多，有芽菜、有草皮、有食用蕈菇，然後還有相關的這些水稻育苗，這個我們開放了，可是開放了這些農業的部分，我們會不會看得到吃不到，這是最重要的。"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["陳委員亭妃：今天我們的農業別增加了，可是是不是真的能夠把我們的移工到位，然後讓他們真正能夠提出申請，這才是重要，所以我覺得我們要注意後續的觀察，也就是說農業移工新制上路之後，大家有很多的期待，可是期待之後呢？會不會失望？會不會變成像過去一樣，雖然我們開了一個門說現在可以申請農業移工，可是最後真正能夠申請的非常的少，所以部長，我們要看的是後續。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：我今天會提出這樣一個特別叮嚀，就是我們整個框架做得很大，農業移工新制擴增至2萬名，哇！農業的發展好像瞬間覺得我們人力充足了，但是不是如此？一個問號。我們在基層都很清楚啦！雖然每次標題都很大，都有很多的期待，是不是能夠轉嫁到每一個農業別？是不是能夠讓每一個類別的雇工都能夠達到他們要的人數跟標準？這才是重要。","另外，部長，這一次因為氣候的因素，所以一件一件，慢慢的、所有的農業大概都已經發生災損，現在到了最後這個階段就是龍眼、荔枝，其實我在4月份就已經提醒了、已經發公文……"],["陳部長駿季：對，4月16就提醒了。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，已經發公文了。現在所有的區公所、所有的農民，一直問我們現在到底怎麼辦？原本花都開得很多，花開得很漂亮，大家都想今年應該沒問題，結果不好意思都不會著果、都是空包彈。我知道龍眼跟荔枝你們大概5月會再去做一次勘災……"],["陳部長駿季：對，5月15。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，龍眼、荔枝，在5月15日勘災之後就可以確定了嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：荔枝應該是通過了，5月15四方會勘後會過。"],["陳委員亭妃：龍眼呢？"],["陳部長駿季：還沒有，龍眼要晚一點。"],["陳委員亭妃：怎麼晚？你要告知大家，因為你們的速度跟民眾、跟農民的感覺是不一樣的。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，其實芒果、龍眼、荔枝的花很漂亮，可是花不結果沒有用。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒錯。"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們要去看花有沒有結果、有沒有落果……"],["陳委員亭妃：那空砲彈呢？"],["陳部長駿季：所以那個時間會慢一點，但是在他們採收前一定會決定。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，你們龍眼預計什麼時候？"],["陳部長駿季：這個可能要看當地的氣候。"],["陳委員亭妃：現在基本上差不多……部長、署長，我跟你說，大家已經都知道了，現在是在等你們的時間，那個花完全已經都是空包彈，所以你現在荔枝是5月15……"],["陳部長駿季：他們說龍眼是5月底。"],["陳委員亭妃：5月底？"],["陳部長駿季：是，大概5月底。"],["陳委員亭妃：5月底。荔枝是5月15號？"],["陳部長駿季：5月中。"],["陳委員亭妃：四方會勘之後大概就可以確認了？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，龍眼是5月底？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個要確定喔！5月底，大概四方會勘之後也可以確定了，這次都沒辦法收成啦！依照我們在現場所看到的，過去、現在的狀況，其實大家心裡都有一把尺，我們也尊重所有公務人員很認真、比較仔細一點，那也沒有問題，起碼我們把時間跟民眾說、跟農民說，他們心裡就會知道他們現在的狀況，我都請他們先去跟區公所通報，我已經請他們去通報了，通報完要到達20%的災損一定是沒問題啦！我們的荔枝是5月15要做四方會勘，我們的龍眼是5月底，這個時間就拜託了，農糧署的部分要確定一下，不然農民的心上上下下的，他們要把它處理掉也沒辦法，不處理，看到又覺得心裡很痛，所以你讓他們有一個時間點，他們比較能夠處理狀況，所以我們大概就把這個時間確定了，謝謝部長。","再來，關於0126大地震，我們在玉井農會有開了一次會議，我們經濟委員會有下去，當天因為我們部長在處理川普關稅的問題，所以沒辦法下去，當天其實我們大概都有做了一個結論，就是18個農會有超過2億的建物整建費用，其實是更多啦，現在報出來的可能超過2億的2倍以上，但是沒有關係，我覺得既然要處理就一次到位，當天我們有做了一個結論，就是針對玉井、南化、楠西、大內、東山、左鎮這幾個部分，大概是陳俊言司長這邊來做處理，他們就陸續報上來。"],["陳部長駿季：對，現在已經陸續在處理了。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，陸續報上來，而且部長，要處理就一次處理夠，不要這樣卡住，一人處理這個、一人處理那個，一次處理好啦！因為他們也有心要處理，像玉井他們就要整建，有好幾個農會都要整建。"],["陳部長駿季：像玉井、南化的臨時處所，我們已經在處理了。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，都已經找好了。"],["陳部長駿季：那個部分要先處理，然後後面再蓋。"],["陳委員亭妃：就是說我們要一次整建的，然後臨時處所的，我們該處理、該幫忙的都一次到位，然後在其他的農會，由各個包括農糧署要認的，尤其我們的糧倉，像大內的糧倉，要認的就要認了啦，這個部分還有我們其他的地方，有一些糧倉是農糧署的部分，然後我們有一些比較重要的、一些必須補助的，我們都希望藉著這個機會，農糧署跟輔導司應該去協助他們，因為既然預算都解凍了，以前是我們沒有預算，但是今天我們就解凍了33億，我覺得我們既然有這樣的預算就應該讓相關的單位有所感，我們今天就要解凍33億，所以部長，這個部分再麻煩了，18個農會因為0126大地震所造成損害的部分，一次把它處理好，不要再一次、兩次、三次，那都會痛啦！而且花的經費又更多，所以部長，再拜託了。"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們會儘量，也不會說等農會送過來，然後說可或不可，其實在寫計畫的時候就要溝通，這樣效果會比較快，我想我們會請同仁跟農會那邊來看計畫要怎麼寫。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，這個部分再拜託部長，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳亭妃委員，下一位請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-13","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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主席有請林部長部長可以慢慢來 可以喝一口水沒有問題"},{"start":10.438,"end":25.451,"text":"好 部長早安委員好我想今天大家都非常的關注就是我的前同事林昶佐委員會不會成為林昶佐大使我想對於外交的派任那絕對是經過國家整體的考量跟發展我非常同意就是目前以台灣的狀況尤其是今天519 明天520中國一定會處心積慮的在外交場合"},{"start":37.901,"end":66.07,"text":"或者是外交的場域給予非常多的這個施壓或者是脅迫那麼第一線的外交同仁確實是非常辛苦的那我也感受到就是我們今天院內有許多的同仁針對長佐的這個所謂派任芬蘭這樣的一個過程給予了很多的指教首先我要先特別這個提出來的是我想這個外交的工作一定是因地制宜那麼"},{"start":67.53,"end":94.202,"text":"雖然這個過程當中很多人會問說那特任到底有沒有其必要性本席就想要舉例就是我在東吳的時候的一位老師謝志偉 謝大使謝大使是我們德文系的教授 系主任那麼這些年來他在德國擔任大使部長您覺得他做得如何他的表現很好 有目共睹而且為外交注入了活力因為他非常有創意"},{"start":94.718,"end":101.263,"text":"好 那麼另外就是我們首位的音樂大使就是我們國台交的團長派駐了奧地利我們的這位劉學勇 劉大使那麼目前您覺得他表現得如何他被 這是奧地利人很喜歡他因為他從文化還有甚至在街頭都會人家請他指揮那個樂團表演"},{"start":117.774,"end":128.282,"text":"就是就從我們跟奧地利的關係來講真的突破了一些我們過去比較傳統就是只有比較正物啦他從文化切入事實上他們他轄區還包括斯洛維尼克跟這個克白西亞那走訪的時候我們也看到這整個區域都動起來"},{"start":137.173,"end":163.488,"text":"好 本席特別要點出這兩位啦當然我相信其他我們住在其他住在國的友邦的大使其實都是非常努力希望讓台灣被看見那麼目前對於常佐來說過去他在立法院除了是兩屆的立法委員然後資深的國防外交委員之外我相信因為閃靈樂團在歐洲尤其是本席其實特別到過芬蘭"},{"start":166.511,"end":176.767,"text":"確實這個芬蘭對於閃靈樂團是非常了解的這個我相信就跟派任我們的這個首位音樂大使到奧地利一樣是有一曲同工之妙那麼剛剛也會特別問到就是說那麼給予"},{"start":180.632,"end":187.037,"text":"我們從外交特考上來的外交官們到底有沒有機會來派任我們知道北歐五國當中其實是有兩個國家包括挪威跟冰島是我們沒有駐館的所以我們還有瑞典跟丹麥對不對那麼請問一下瑞典丹麥我們是專業的外交官系統上來的大使嗎"},{"start":203.61,"end":228.084,"text":"是,瑞典斯古瑞森他是專業的職業外交官丹麥是我們之前駐美的副代表到那邊去擔任我們的代表,就升任愉快所以本席想要給部長一個解釋的機會因為剛剛您提到所謂的北歐五國七日聯防各司其職其實我覺得是非常重要的因為"},{"start":229.866,"end":245.035,"text":"有一些當然我們講大使在外交工作上面需要有資深的外交的歷練但是有一些所謂的亮點或者是能夠跟地方做一些場域上的整合或者是能夠代表台灣讓台灣的價值被看到那是更為重要的那麼"},{"start":249.097,"end":267.238,"text":"對於如果真的是由林昶佐來擔任芬蘭大使的話那麼您期望整體在北歐的佈局或者是總統所預計的佈局會是什麼樣的方向跟想像其實北歐剛好五國這是總和外交可以在這邊來推動的很好的地區"},{"start":268.539,"end":281.064,"text":"一方面價值外交這些國家都是老牌的民主的成熟外交甚至有些還之前被蘇聯統治過所以他們的反控對台灣是很有善另外就是文化人權"},{"start":282.953,"end":305.204,"text":"這些價值面的外交再來就是從安全上來講因為他們面對到俄烏戰爭之後都紛紛比如說以芬蘭申請加入北約這以前是不可想像因為他是比較中立性質的就是說這個威脅未來也會持續所以跟台灣他們很關心台灣面對中國威脅的經驗彼此的交流像這個海嵐其實後來發現就是中國的船"},{"start":308.685,"end":329.219,"text":"用其他國籍,在芬蘭跟愛沙尼亞,他們是直接受到衝擊的因為北歐這個地方海南很多,電信各種需要的,包括傳輸這些天然氣、能源等等所以這個是安全的層面,也是一種同盟外交再來其實是經濟外交上,這些國家跟我們的經貿也很互補"},{"start":333.722,"end":342.849,"text":"那未來的飛鴻供應鏈我想他們都必須要選邊這個時候台灣就是飛鴻供應鏈裡面最具備我想我們是製造大國然後跟他們很多的品牌像設計所以在經貿上面透過我們希望比如說增加航權所以最近芬蘭已經簽了那其他幾個國家也在洽談中我們可能會突破直接飛北歐以後國人去看極地"},{"start":362.163,"end":377.416,"text":"的這個美景啊也不用再轉機我想這個也都是經貿外交裡面的一環那我剛剛再補充一下其實林昶佐委員大家可能不太了解蔡前總統現在去哥本哈可能現在那個民主峰會他都是參加都是"},{"start":378.217,"end":402.002,"text":"主壇人耶而且他還受拜登的邀請出席這個在華盛頓峰會這個亞洲國會的議員所以他的經驗包括IPEC委員就很清楚他是促成台灣參與還有包括這個很多交流活動更不用講他在國際特色組織擔任台灣分會長北歐的人權特色組織大家都知道包括台灣的民主化"},{"start":402.662,"end":421.528,"text":"也很多人受到他們幫助所以我是覺得我們就持平來看啦這些條件是都符合做一個大使那我是個人認為啦像在座啦不只在座啦外交國安委員會的每一個立法委員都有資格擔我們中華民國台灣駐外的大使跟代表這個是民主國家的常態"},{"start":422.108,"end":424.97,"text":"其實部長講到這裡我想面對現在台灣的外交的困境本席會特別問這個問題是因為我相信不論是從正常管道上來的資深優秀的外交同仁我們是予以肯定的尤其他們在第一線的打拼即使現在我們是以特任的方式來任命"},{"start":443.642,"end":458.196,"text":"非從外交系統出來的外交官但是其實他們被派出去之後代表的都是我們的國家中華民國我相信大家的目標都是一致的那麼至於有一些委員特別去質疑說這個從外交系統上來就沒有機會嗎我倒是認為不用從單一的一個點"},{"start":464.742,"end":469.868,"text":"去看這一個人因為我相信在這樣的過程當中都是有其國家上面的考量就像當時我們派謝長廷前院長去當駐日大使因為我們派了一個院長等級的代表我們對這個邦交國或者是這個友邦的"},{"start":482.803,"end":493.676,"text":"認同、支持跟尊重那麼現在我們派一個在當地享譽盛名或者是說在音樂界上面或是在自由人權上面作為發聲的一個前國會議員我相信應該也是有同樣的用處"},{"start":501.069,"end":525.858,"text":"其實最近的任命很多職業外交官包括到希臘到愛爾蘭之前都是比較屬於政務任用甚至在印尼都改由職業外交官我們會視財視所因為他有比例限制我們也沒有多聘總統基於他整體外交考量的佈局我們就是支持然後全力來辦理 謝謝"},{"start":526.738,"end":540.236,"text":"好 那麼我們也要給這個外交同仁加油因為明天520喔我相信這個中國在外交上面的打壓或打擊一定會層出不窮但是我相信我們的外交同仁都很有經驗也可以做得很好謝謝 辛苦了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":200,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時11分）謝謝主席。主席，有請林部長，部長可以慢慢來，可以喝一口水，沒有問題。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：部長早安。我想今天大家都非常關注我的前同事林昶佐委員會不會成為林昶佐大使，我想對於外交的派任，絕對是經過國家整體的考量跟發展，我非常同意以臺灣目前的狀況，尤其今天519、明天520，中國一定會處心積慮的在外交場合或者是外交的場域給予非常多的施壓或者是脅迫，第一線的外交同仁確實是非常辛苦的。","我也感受到今天院內有許多同仁針對昶佐派任芬蘭的過程給予很多指教，首先我要先特別提出來的是，外交工作一定是因地制宜，雖然這個過程當中，很多人會問特任到底有沒有其必要性，本席想要舉例，就是我在東吳的時候一位老師叫謝志偉謝大使，謝大使是我們德文系的教授系主任，這些年來他在德國擔任大使，部長覺得他做得如何？"],["林部長佳龍：他的表現很好，有目共睹，而且為外交注入了活力，因為他非常有創意。"],["林委員楚茵：好，另外是我們首位的音樂大使，就是國臺交的團長派駐了奧地利，這位劉玄詠劉大使，目前您覺得他表現得如何？"],["林部長佳龍：奧地利人很喜歡他，因為他從文化，甚至在街頭人家都會請他指揮樂團表演，從我們跟奧地利的關係來講，真的突破了一些我們過去比較傳統的，就是只有比較政務的部分，他從文化切入，事實上，他的轄區還包括斯洛維尼亞、克羅埃西亞，走訪的時候，我們也看到這整個區域都動起來。"],["林委員楚茵：好，本席特別要點出這兩位，當然我相信其他駐在友邦的大使其實都是非常努力，希望讓臺灣被看見。目前對於昶佐來說，過去他在立法院除了是2屆、是資深的外交及國防委員會的立法委員之外，我相信因為閃靈樂團在歐洲，尤其本席其實特別去過芬蘭，確實芬蘭對於閃靈樂團是非常了解的，我相信就跟派任首位音樂大使到奧地利一樣，是有異曲同工之妙。","剛剛也有人特別問到，從外交特考上來的外交官們到底有沒有機會來派任？我們知道北歐五國當中，其實是有兩個國家包括挪威跟冰島，我們沒有駐館，所以我們還有瑞典跟丹麥，對不對？"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["林委員楚茵：那麼請問一下，瑞典、丹麥的部分我們是專業外交官系統上來的大使嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：是，瑞典是谷瑞生，他是專業的職業外交官，丹麥是之前駐美的副代表到那邊去擔任我們的代表，勝任愉快。"],["林委員楚茵：所以本席其實是想要給部長一個解釋的機會，因為剛剛您提到北歐五國區域聯防各司其職，其實我覺得是非常重要的，當然我們講大使在外交工作上面需要有資深的外交歷練，但是有一些亮點或是能夠跟地方做一些場域上的整合，或者是能夠代表臺灣，讓臺灣的價值被看到，那是更為重要的，對於如果真的由林昶佐擔任芬蘭大使的話，那麼您期望整體在北歐的布局或是總統所預計的布局會是什麼樣的方向跟想像？"],["林部長佳龍：其實剛好北歐五國是總合外交可以在這邊推動很好的地區，一般的價值外交，這些國家都是老牌的、民主的成熟外交，甚至有一些之前還被蘇聯統治過，所以他們的反控，對臺灣是很友善的。另外是文化、人權這些價值面的外交。其次，從安全上來講，他們面對俄烏戰爭之後，都紛紛……比如芬蘭申請加入北約，這以前是不可想像的，因為它是比較中立性質的，但這個威脅未來也會持續，所以他們很關心臺灣面對中國威脅的經驗，彼此的交流。像海纜，後來發現就是中國的船用其他的國籍，然後芬蘭跟愛沙尼亞他們是直接受到衝擊的，因為北歐這個地方的海纜很多，有電信或各種的需要，包括傳輸天然氣、能源等等，所以這個是安全的層面，也是一種同盟外交。再來是經濟外交上，這些國家跟我們的經貿也很互補，關於未來的非紅供應鏈，我想他們都必須選邊，這個時候臺灣就是非紅供應鏈裡面最具備資格的，我們是製造大國，跟他們很多的品牌像設計部分都有關連。所以在經貿上面，我們希望透過比如增加航權，最近芬蘭已經簽了，其他幾個國家也在洽談中，我們可能會突破直接飛北歐，以後國人去看極地美景也不用再轉機，我想這個也都是經貿外交裡面的一環。"],["林委員楚茵：好。"],["林部長佳龍：我再補充一下，其實大家可能不太了解林昶佐前委員，蔡前總統現在去哥本哈根參加的民主高峰會，他參加都是主談人，而且他還是曾受拜登邀請出席華盛頓峰會的亞洲國會議員。他的經驗包括IPAC，委員就很清楚，他是促成臺灣參與以及包括很多的交流活動，更不用講他在國際特赦組織擔任臺灣分會長。北歐的人權、特赦組織大家都知道，包括臺灣的民主化，也有很多人受到他們的幫助，因此我覺得就持平來看，這些條件都符合做一個大使。我個人認為，不只在座的委員，外交及國防委員會的每一個立法委員都有資格擔任中華民國臺灣駐外的大使跟代表，這個是民主國家的常態。"],["林委員楚茵：好，部長講到這裡，我想面對現在臺灣的外交困境，本席會特別問這個問題，是因為我相信不論是從正常管道上來的資深優秀的外交同仁，我們是予以肯定的，尤其他們在第一線的打拚，即使現在是以特任的方式來任命非從外交系統出來的外交官，但是他們被派出去之後，代表的都是我們的國家──中華民國，我相信大家的目標都是一致的。至於有一些委員特別質疑從外交系統上來就沒有機會嗎？我倒是認為不用從單一的點去看這一個人，因為我相信在這樣的過程當中都是有國家上面的考量，就像當時派謝長廷前院長去當駐日大使，因為派了一個院長等級的，代表我們對這個邦交國或友邦的認同、支持跟尊重。現在我們派一個在當地享譽盛名或者在音樂界上面或在自由人權上面做為發聲的前國會議員，我相信應該也是有同樣的用處。"],["林部長佳龍：我可不可以再跟委員補充一個小點？其實最近任命很多職業外交官，包括到希臘、愛爾蘭，之前都是比較屬於政務任用，甚至在印尼都改為職業外交官，我們會適才適所，但因為有比例限制，我們也沒有多聘，總統基於整體……"],["林委員楚茵：外交上的考量。"],["林部長佳龍：外交的考量、布局，我們會支持並全力辦理，謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我們也要給外交同仁加油，因為明天520，我相信中國在外交上面的打壓或打擊一定會層出不窮，但是我相信我們的外交同仁都很有經驗，也可以做得很好，謝謝，辛苦了。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵的質詢。","接下來由徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-15","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","王定宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅美玲","林憶君","王鴻薇","陳永康"],"page_start":319,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等48案","agenda_id":"1145001_00014"}}},{"id":"161535","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161535","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f06eecee967580ec9028de2cce2b28366acb2fe453f4508dd4e027a2bf8945983e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:07:05 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今天是我們農業部跟工平會的解凍案那因為工平會主委跟那個我們農業部長很少在一起我想請農業部陳部長還有我們工平會的陳代理主委好 請部長跟代理主委"},{"start":32.507,"end":39.113,"text":"首先我想說先請教一下農業部長這邊因為我們台紐經濟合作協定今年開始全面生效但因為從2013年我們跟台紐經濟合作協定之後的時候對於牛乳的進口的部分之前的時候是配額內零關稅"},{"start":54.608,"end":71.699,"text":"那配額外的時候每公斤是14元對不對那從今年開始的時候不再想有配額的限制那全面開始零關稅進口可是我們從市場上看起來的時候呢就是今年開始全部有零關稅那可是發現價格也沒有波動"},{"start":72.799,"end":87.268,"text":"價格沒有波動本來是一件好事可是因為我們零關稅之後消費者感覺沒有得到好處因為價格沒有往下降那我們想問一下就是說這個零關稅之後的這些的差價到底跑到哪裡去了"},{"start":88.483,"end":99.837,"text":"我跟委員說明有一個數據可能要先說明就是整個我們台灣從國外進口的生乳的部分大概是五萬八千噸一年那其中大概三萬八到三萬九千噸是鮮乳的部分"},{"start":104.001,"end":131.116,"text":"紐西蘭的鮮乳佔的比例比較少它是以薄酒乳比較多它的鮮乳大概一年只有4000多噸而已然後它的那個薄酒乳相對比較多大概1萬多噸所以相對的就是你如果純粹看紐西蘭的這個部分的話它的佔比其實那個3萬應該3萬8、3萬9千噸裡面它只有佔4000多噸所以它對市場的那個影響力其實沒那麼大"},{"start":132.256,"end":147.754,"text":"我們農業部來講我們更在意的是我們弱農的生乳提供給乳廠的價格是不是能夠穩定而且更高這是我想農業部最關心的就這個那至於後端的市場我想有它的一個機制"},{"start":148.675,"end":169.313,"text":"部長你講到一個我真的要問的重點我為什麼特別請公平會主委一起來的部分就是因為如果說關稅降低的時候消費者沒有得到好處不管他佔比是多少的時候那至少弱農要得到好處吧這是我們的目標其實是一致的可是我們看到了就是說在這個目前台灣的一個四大那個爐瓶廠的時候大概"},{"start":170.194,"end":192.362,"text":"收了所有台灣的一個生乳的八成以上這是我們從那個網路上面看到的一份資料這是某一個生乳廠特別提出來的一個狀態他這個通知單他特別提到了我把紅框框畫出來的地方他再次強調裡面絕對勿將非自家牧場生產之生乳搭交"},{"start":193.442,"end":213.612,"text":"禁止搭交的意思的時候就是說生乳不得外調變成這樣的一個情況那如果說以這樣的情況的時候我想請教針對這樣子大的乳品廠他們直接用這樣子很強勢的部分在跟我們的弱農做互動的時候我想請教一下農業部怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":214.656,"end":238.835,"text":"我想第一個就是我們的爐廠跟我們的酪農廠本身的一個爐架我們有訂一個基礎爐架然後我們有一些契約架的部分那那個契約架包括它的獎金所以它基本上是雙方合議的那我們會去了解如果說有比較不正常的強迫性的時候那我們想我們會去了解爐廠為什麼會做這種事情因為"},{"start":240.016,"end":258.047,"text":"好部長因為其實你講這部分你就是要強調說契約自由來解決這個事情可是問題目前來說的時候就是因為四大爐品廠他們已經佔據市場八成以上的一個收入的一個情況所以我也想問一下公平會對於這樣子的一個部分的時候那公平會怎麼看"},{"start":259.313,"end":276.538,"text":"跟委員報告一下這相關的這些行為公平會在93年的時候曾經有調查過那也針對相關的行為進行過查處但是這幾年來這個市場的情況有蠻大的改變所以委員關切這個問題其實就如同剛剛部長也談到了這是一個契約交易的決定的自由"},{"start":278.297,"end":297.027,"text":"對於上游這個對於這個乳品供應商跟下游的這個廠商來講主委你講說契約自由的部分我真的就覺得不一定那麼認同其實因為針對這個部分畜牧法第36條它裡面就有特別提到為了維持牛羊乳品與那個的產銷平衡的時候呢各縣市主管機關應輔導"},{"start":298.528,"end":313.225,"text":"就是廠農雙方訂定生農買賣契約所以政府是有角色的那畜牧法這邊的時候是農業部這邊在主管的時候我覺得農業部這邊也必定要擔起這樣的一個責任那麼另外的部分的時候呢我們就看到了"},{"start":313.866,"end":332.59,"text":"因為公平會之前曾經認定定型化契約的使用人如果瑕疵由於交易對方的經濟地位定有違反契約利益負擔公平的條款破壞存在於契約當事人兩照之間誠實信用的一個良好秩序是定型化契約的濫用所以針對這個部分我們認為所謂的一個"},{"start":337.891,"end":356.845,"text":"不得外調這件事情已經非常的影響到弱農他們的一個生計所以我們希望就是農業部跟公平會這邊的時候請針對這個部分要好好的一個處理否則我們看到關稅變零之後消費者沒有得益那弱農沒有得益那到底誰得益我覺得這是一個很大的一個問題好不好"},{"start":358.846,"end":387.726,"text":"市長跟委員補充一下委員剛剛提到第25條這個部分這個是一個補充性的條款我們事實上會看看市場有沒有聯合統台聯合定價那另外也會看看相關的產業主管機關對於這個問題有沒有一些特別法的規定理解所以我才讓農業部跟你一起出來面對這個問題因為目前其實也有消費者這邊也發起了一人一信到公平會這邊對不對對於這個部分就是要檢舉進口生乳價格不合理這部分我想請教一下公平會目前進度到哪裡"},{"start":389.047,"end":412.765,"text":"針對這樣一個消費者的活動 針對紐西蘭這個案子 我們現在是立案在調查當中還在調查當中嘛 大概什麼時候會有成果出來可能還沒有那麼快 因為有檢舉的蠻多的檢舉蠻 就是因為很多嘛 所以說還沒有一個具體的一個時間出來 那你要拖幾年才會出來大概給我一個時間點好不好應該不會到幾年 我想大概"},{"start":415.848,"end":417.738,"text":"我們會盡快啦好不好給我一個時間好不好 給我一個具體的時間"},{"start":423.001,"end":442.178,"text":"我們盡快好不好 因為這個的確前期的內容很多那你事後再到本辦公室來 給我一個具體的一個進度因為在這邊 我一直在那邊追究這時間的時候那你這邊一直不回答那我們就認為這件事情可能會遙遙無期那消費者的一個權益 顯然受損大家一人一心到公平會這邊說 公平會還沒有積極去處理那我們其實就會有一點"},{"start":447.423,"end":464.618,"text":"擔憂這樣的一個情況會持續的發生而且沒有辦法解決包委員我們有積極在處理OK那之後再到本辦公室來繼續做一個說明那因為今天的解凍案當中的時候就是在我們的那個討論事項當中第四案這邊的時候有一個凍結五億元的部分因為凍結五億元這邊的時候呢"},{"start":466.98,"end":494.625,"text":"就農業部這邊的一個說明 因為農業部這次的解凍報告裡面很多都在講現在做什麼東西 可是我們在監督這部分就是希望有更精進的一個作為啦那針對這五一當中的時候 裡面第四點特別提到說要增進農民福利 並支持弱農因應乳品市場貿易自由化所帶來的衝擊所以要 請我們要支持解凍案我想針對這個部分 部長 針對這個部分的時候我們有沒有具體做什麼"},{"start":495.325,"end":522.61,"text":"但是在這一次的這個凍結的武藝當中有多少的時候會跟我們這個乳品市場跟弱農有關可不可以請進一步做一個說明我跟委員報告其實對內農的幫助我們其實從去年就開始了那第一個部分就是在乳廠端的協助我想跟後續在乳廠的這些調查都需要人力去做那一個更重要我們現在正在談的就是這些大宗的這些"},{"start":523.98,"end":552.372,"text":"這些應該這麼講那個叫做什麼手搖飲手搖飲的店我們現在正在跟他談他如果全用國產乳的話我們會給他一些獎勵讓他在門口貼標章如果我想辦法讓國產乳的市場區隔化的時候那相對的我們的乳廠的乳就可以順利的送出來理解喔部長那個什麼因為我看到這次的那個書面的那個解凍報告當中的時候因為大部分都沒有數字啦"},{"start":552.952,"end":582.231,"text":"那因為除了那個農水署之外有比較多的數字其他單位都很少數字那我希望你這部分的時候把數字準備好之後再跟本行做更多的部分我想我們再跟委員過做說明把相關的數字再提供給您好那另外最後一個部分就是我針對IUU的部分因為我去年其實我問過這件事情就針對我們的一個蟹魚檢查員我想請教一下我們目前有多少蟹魚檢查員我們的蟹魚檢查員我可不可以請漁業署可以"},{"start":584.017,"end":591.639,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在現與檢察院有31名有31名嘛因為之前的那個前署長的時候講到說有79名這個數字是對的嗎委員報告就是現與檢察院我去年問過這個事情我們的檢察院有兩類一類叫做那個勞動的一個檢查的部分勞動檢察院有現在有70名那我們的現與檢察有31名是他們執行不同的工作"},{"start":613.885,"end":619.782,"text":"現已檢查的部分是針對所謂的非法的漁業行為 特別針對這部分是因為"},{"start":622.668,"end":643.089,"text":"上個月的時候加拿大這邊有通報我們的台灣的漁船就是非法殺海豚然後去捕殺魚這件事情的時候我們後來怎麼處理跟委員報告這一類只要加拿大的報告送到我們台灣來以後給我們漁業署收到以後我們會立即啟動調查"},{"start":644.17,"end":670.259,"text":"那加拿大的這一份檢查報告裡面所附的這個影片事證非常的明確所以我們立即把涉及違反這個野保法的部分我們移送檢調來做處理因為那是刑事責任那對於我們漁業違規的部分他捕抓到海豚我們有刻意他義務說你要不管死活你都要釋放要在漁撈日誌裡面去做登載"},{"start":670.979,"end":694.249,"text":"他沒登載的部分這一個部分我們現在都做立即的這一個行政處分所以行政跟刑事的部分我們現在是分開來因為我覺得就是保育器是一個全球共同的一個價值那我們台灣這邊務必要去follow這部分所以我們對於IU的部分其實也特別的關注那因為我們這一次在那個整個漁業署的費用當中的時候他有一個管理觀察員"},{"start":695.79,"end":709.162,"text":"這個部分的時候我們總共有多少人因為台灣的遠洋漁船其實有上千多家上千多條船那我們的這個管理觀察員總共會有多少人委員我們現在科學觀察員100位"},{"start":710.683,"end":726.14,"text":"那因為我們現在國際組織要求的這個涵蓋率就是每一艘船的這個觀察員上去的涵蓋率至少每個組織都不一樣有5%有7%的那目前我們的觀察員的派遣都符合國際組織的規定"},{"start":727.982,"end":740.49,"text":"OK 針對IU的部分我們希望農業署這邊的時候漁業署這邊的時候是能夠好好去加以規範不要讓這樣的事情一直鬧上國際的新聞好不好包委員是 這個我們會持續來加強推動好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":324,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時7分）謝謝主席。今天是審查農業部跟公平會的解凍案，因為公平會主委跟農業部長很少在一起備詢，我想請農業部陳部長，還有公平會陳代理主委。"],["主席：請部長跟代理主委。"],["鄭委員正鈐：首先，我先請教一下農業部長，因為臺紐經濟合作協定今年開始全面生效，但因為從2013年我們簽定臺紐經濟合作協定之後，對於牛乳進口的部分，是配額內零關稅，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：配額外每公斤是14元，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：從今年開始不再享有配額的限制，全面開始零關稅進口，可是我們從市場上看起來，今年開始全部都零關稅，發現價格也沒有波動，價格沒有波動本來是一件好事，可是我們零關稅之後，消費者感覺沒有得到好處，因為價格沒有往下降。我想問一下，零關稅之後這些差價到底跑到哪裡去了？"],["陳部長駿季：有一個數據我要先跟委員說明，臺灣從國外進口生乳的部分，一年大概是5萬8,000噸，其中大概3萬8,000噸到3萬9,000噸是鮮乳。紐西蘭的鮮乳占的比例比較少，以保久乳比較多，它的鮮乳一年大概只有四千多噸而已，保久乳相對比較多，大概一萬多噸，所以如果純粹看紐西蘭的部分，它的占比在3萬8,000噸到3萬9,000噸裡面其實只有四千多噸，所以它對市場的影響力其實沒那麼大。以農業部來講，我們更在意的是，酪農的生乳提供給乳廠的價格是不是能夠穩定而且更高，農業部最關心的就是這個。至於後端的市場，我想有它的一個機制，我們也比較沒注意。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，部長，你講到一個我要問的重點，我為什麼特別請公平會主委一起來？因為如果關稅降低，消費者沒有得到好處，不管它的占比是多少，至少酪農要得到好處吧？我們的目標其實是一致的，可是我們看到目前臺灣的四大乳品廠大概收了臺灣所有生乳的八成以上，這是我們從網路上看到的一份資料，是某一個生乳廠特別提出來的，它這個通知單特別提到，再次強調「絕對勿將非自家牧場生產之生乳搭交」，禁止搭交的意思就是生乳不得外調，變成這樣的一個情況，針對大的乳品廠直接用很強勢的態度在跟我們的酪農互動，我想請教一下農業部怎麼看這件事情？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個，我們的乳廠跟酪農廠本身的乳價，我們有訂一個基準乳價，然後有一些契約價的部分，那個契約價包括它的獎金，所以它基本上是雙方合意的。我們會去了解，如果有比較不正常、強迫性的情況，我們會去了解乳廠為什麼會做這種事情，因為乳廠跟……"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，其實你講這部分，就是要強調透過契約自由的方式來解決這件事情，可是問題是目前在四大乳品廠收乳已經占據市場八成以上的情況下，我也想問一下公平會，對於這個部分，公平會怎麼看？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：跟委員報告，相關的這些行為，公平會在93年的時候曾經有調查過，也針對相關的行為進行過查處，但是這幾年來這個市場的情況有滿大的改變，所以委員關切的這個問題，其實剛剛部長也談到了，這是一個契約交易決定的自由，對於上游的乳品供應商跟下游的廠商來講，他們……"],["鄭委員正鈐：主委，你說契約自由這部分，我真的不那麼認同，因為其實針對這個部分，畜牧法第三十六條就有特別提到，為維持牛、羊乳與乳品產銷平衡，各縣市主管機關應輔導廠農雙方訂定生乳買賣契約。所以政府是有角色的，畜牧法是農業部主管，我覺得農業部也必定要擔起這樣的責任。另外，我們看到了公平會之前曾經認定，定型化契約的使用人如果挾其優於交易對方的經濟地位，訂有違反契約利益負擔公平的條款，破壞存在於契約當事人兩造之間誠實信用的良好秩序，係定型化契約的濫用，所以針對這個部分，我們認為所謂的不得外調這件事情，已經對酪農的生計影響非常大，所以我們希望農業部跟公平會針對這個部分要好好處理，否則我們看到關稅變零之後，消費者沒有得益、酪農沒有得益，那到底是誰得益？我覺得這是一個很大的問題。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：跟委員補充一下，委員剛剛提到第二十五條這個部分，這是一個補充性的條款，我們原則上會看市場上有沒有聯合哄抬、聯合定價。另外也會看相關的產業主管機關，對於這個問題有沒有一些特別法的規定。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，所以我才讓農業部跟你一起出來面對這個問題，因為目前消費者也發起了一人一信到公平會，對不對？就是要檢舉進口生乳價格不合理，我想請教一下，針對這樣的一個消費者活動，公平會目前處理進度到哪裡？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：針對紐西蘭這個案子，我們現在是立案在調查當中。"],["鄭委員正鈐：還在調查當中嘛？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：大概什麼時候會有成果出來？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：可能還沒有那麼快，因為檢舉滿多的，所以可能……"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，有檢舉嘛！就是因為很多，所以還沒有一個具體的時間，那你要拖幾年才會出來？大概給我一個時間點，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：應該不會到幾年，我想大概……委員，我們會儘快，好不好？"],["鄭委員正鈐：給我一個時間，給我一個具體的時間，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員，我們儘快，好不好？的確檢舉的內容很多，我們需要一點……"],["鄭委員正鈐：你事後再到本辦公室來給我具體的進度……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為我一直在追究時間，但你一直不回答，我們就認為這件事情可能會遙遙無期，消費者的權益顯然受損，大家一人一信到公平會的時候，公平會還沒有積極去處理，我們其實就會有一點擔憂這樣的一個情況會持續地發生，而且沒有辦法解決。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：報告委員，我們有積極在處理，可能……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，之後再到本辦公室繼續做說明。今天的解凍案，在我們的討論事項第四案有一個凍結5億元的部分，因為在農業部的解凍報告裡面，很多都在講現在做什麼東西，可是我們監督就是希望有更精進的一個作為。針對這5億，裡面第四點特別提到「為增進農民福利並支持酪農因應乳品市場貿易自由化所帶來之衝擊」，所以要請我們支持解凍案，部長，針對這個部分我們有沒有具體做什麼？在這一次凍結的5億當中有多少會跟我們乳品市場、跟酪農有關，可不可以進一步做說明？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，其實我們對酪農的幫助是從去年就開始了，第一個部分，在乳廠端的協助，我想後續在乳廠的這些調查都需要人力去做；還有更重要是我們現在正在談大宗的這些……手搖飲的店，我們現在正在跟它談，它如果全用國產乳的話，我們會給它一些獎勵，讓它在門口貼標章，我們想辦法讓國產乳的市場區隔化，相對的我們乳廠的乳就可以順利的送出來。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。部長，因為我看到這次書面的解凍報告大部分都沒有數字，除了農水署有比較多的數字之外，其他的單位都很少數字，我希望你把數字準備好之後再跟本席做清楚的……"],["陳部長駿季：好，跟酪農的部分，我們再跟委員做說明，把相關的數字再提供給您。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，好。另外，最後一個針對IUU的部分，我去年其實問過這件事情，針對我們的卸魚檢查員，我想請教一下，我們目前有多少卸魚檢查員？"],["陳部長駿季：我們的卸魚檢查員……我可不可以請漁業署？"],["鄭委員正鈐：可以。"],["王署長茂城：跟委員報告，我們現在卸魚檢查員有31名，有約聘也有約僱。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為前署長講有79名，這個數字是對的嗎？"],["王署長茂城：卸魚檢查員……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我去年問過這個事情。"],["王署長茂城：是，我們的檢查員有兩類，一類是勞動檢查的部分，勞動檢查員現在有70名；卸魚檢查有31名，他們是執行不同的工作，卸魚檢查的部分是針對所謂非法的漁業行為。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，理解，我特別針對這部分是因為上個月加拿大有通報臺灣的漁船非法殺海豚去誘捕鯊魚，這件事情後來怎麼處理？"],["王署長茂城：這一類事情，只要加拿大的報告送到臺灣來漁業署收到以後，我們會立即啟動調查，而加拿大這一份檢查報告裡面所附的影片事證非常的明確，所以我們立即把涉及違反野保法的部分移送檢調來處理，因為那是刑事責任。對於我們漁業違規的部分，他捕抓到海豚，我們有課予他義務不管死活都要釋放，要在漁撈日誌裡面去做登載，關於他沒登載的部分，我們現在都做立即的行政處分，所以行政跟刑事的部分，我們現在是分開來處理。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我覺得保育是全球共同的價值，我們臺灣務必要follow這部分，所以我們對於IUU部分也特別的關注。因為這一次在整個漁業署費用中還有一個管理觀察員，這個部分我們總共有多少人？因為臺灣的遠洋漁船其實有上千多條船，我們的管理觀察員總共會有多少人？"],["王署長茂城：委員，我們現在科學觀察員100位，因為現在國際組織要求的涵蓋率，就是每一艘船觀察員上去的涵蓋率至少……每個組織都不一樣，有5%、有7%的，而目前我們觀察員的派遣都符合國際組織的規定。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，針對IUU的部分，我們希望漁業署能夠好好去加以規範，不要讓這樣的事情一直鬧上國際的新聞，好不好？"],["王署長茂城：是，這個我們會持續加強推動。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員。","下一位請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-13","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","郭昱晴","陳冠廷","張雅琳","呂玉玲"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等 30案；二、處理或\n審查114年度中央政府總預算有關公平交易委員會主管預算凍結案等8案","agenda_id":"1145101_00004"}}},{"id":"161534","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161534","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f04403902df97c7f27239b9191e0d12eeacb2fe453f4508dd4ec2d40718126b8875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:04:28 - 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抱歉咧 民營的這樣 把你叫來但是也剛好來做一個釐清啦我剛 那個副局長我剛針對 趙偉請坐我剛針對趙偉 吳宗憲所提出來的問題啊我是很有興趣啊他提到啊 這個簡訊的發送啊涉及到整個選票法第98條第二項的一個問題啊我倒非常支持啊 他講了一個講法"},{"start":41.769,"end":45.194,"text":"按照吳宗憲委員這個講法,我告訴你,你國民黨還抓到我告訴你台東縣海端鄉的民眾就跟我來檢舉啦"},{"start":51.806,"end":56.07,"text":"就一直接受到中國國民黨去寄送的一些資料說 哎喲 國民黨快滅黨了喔 你們就趕出來這樣連署喔這樣罷免成癮喔 你們要滅黨跟成癮到底有什麼關係好啦 如果是簡訊是違法的你來搜集這個 人家個資 同樣都等同個資啊個資裡面不是只有簡訊才叫個資啊不然你們是不是這樣說"},{"start":77.963,"end":83.107,"text":"我們的這個在公圖法的一個修訂裡面本來選報法的修訂裡面罷免不得宣傳這個部分我們以前已經刪除了現在已經可以宣傳了"},{"start":94.502,"end":113.698,"text":"那如果是可以宣傳的話應該是說這個簡訊或者說這樣一個各自的一個第一階段的取得跟處理跟利用你要去判斷它到底哪一個階段是違法才對啊不是說你發送簡訊就是違法不是說你去寄送都是違法好啦 這樣我告訴你 你們國民黨抓到了嗎 你們台黨抓到了嗎 我告訴你"},{"start":115.7,"end":127.389,"text":"所以這個我們在立法院裡面要特別提出個人的主張裡面我都很表敬佩但是其實那個射程有時候怎麼殺都殺到你們自己人副董你覺得怎麼樣?你覺得像仇人?我也不好意思回覆你啦你沒什麼說話你請回來我來請我們司法院副秘書長"},{"start":143.786,"end":156.677,"text":"還有請中選會今天有來因為複密中選會這個都是很專業的在這個地方就不能胡說八道"},{"start":157.912,"end":184.902,"text":"那我想請教幾位的就是說像這一次在野黨的朋友提出了所謂的憲判裡面整個死刑的判決是一致性的所謂的死刑公投這樣的一個案件我想請教的就是說這個到底是否屬不符合公投法然後到底是屬於重大政策的一個創制還是覆決是不是請我們中選會這個地方先表達一下看法好不好"},{"start":186.37,"end":208.906,"text":"包委員那所謂的創始跟覆決那簡單的講就是創始就是從無到有那覆決就是從有到無是嗎是是 我也不知道我現在是覺得你具體個案給含塞進去之後你看這個案到底算什麼目前中選會是還沒有收到我們立法院交付的官民投票提案那如果收到以後其實這個案子喔"},{"start":209.386,"end":225.804,"text":"它不會是重大政策的覆決啦你按照113年憲判第8號要求的是你這個修法都還沒有啟動當然不涉及到整個修正的具體的一個法規範那到底算不算政策的一個創制你認為呢"},{"start":229.742,"end":250.98,"text":"包委員 就具體的個案而言 中選會會收到我們立法院交付的公民投票提案以後啊會依照組織法的規定啊 提委員會議來處理是啦 你講這個都比較空啊 我跟你講 憲判八號裡面講的就是說你該你立法院你該去做的事情 你不做 你去丟給公投 這個其實啊"},{"start":252.321,"end":279.23,"text":"大法官的威嚴大義就是在講說你憲政機關你身為立法院你叫做怠惰啦那我們整個過去公投法的立法的一個目的我都覺得這一次這有一點背道而馳啦公投法本體規範本體是說老百姓提出公投的議題中選委你們要來審查嘛 對不對你們要來審查照理講實在是在審查這個老百姓提來的公投法可是啊"},{"start":280.03,"end":306.193,"text":"現在問題來了現在是立法院所提出來的通過交付公投的中選會到底有沒有辦法審查連我自己我都畫上一個問號我都畫上一個問號但是前這個中選會主委啊他倒是指出了兩條路啦就是說第一個中選會向行政法院提出確認訴訟或者說立法委員自己來做一個提出可是又碰到一個麻煩啦"},{"start":307.254,"end":332.896,"text":"這個就可能要請教來覆密了就是說以現在憲法法庭目前停擺來講的話現行大法跟白人你根本就不足以來召開新法憲訴法裡面三十條第二項鎖定的平易的門檻十個嘛那你可能這個判決到最後會攔產那你中選會向法院來提出確認訴訟反而可能會比較快我不曉得這個覆密署長你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":334.036,"end":335.137,"text":"其實有一個東西你就很方便回答了啦你說任何"},{"start":359.922,"end":367.289,"text":"過去有很多的憲判或者說以前叫大法官會議解釋除非後面的大法官會議解釋或者憲判去修正"},{"start":368.508,"end":390.806,"text":"前面的大法官會或憲法法庭的一個解釋否則憲法法庭做出來的效率就等同憲法嘛不是嗎所以說啊就等同憲法啦那不管是從過去4至185號或是4至405號這一些啊涉及到整個大法官會議的一個解釋裡面那我來看喔"},{"start":391.894,"end":419.766,"text":"其實都講得非常清楚了連2018年公投案就算過了司法院還是要求相關機關在審議立法的時候法律委員會還是不得抵觸憲法所以我覺得在野黨其實我在這個地方也必須要指出來就是說大法官憲判出來以後要求的是立法院來做立法的工作那立法院他不做他就說我也沒辦法做我就丟給民眾來公投"},{"start":422.165,"end":446.801,"text":"這個就變成說除非要解這個議題就是說真正的要推翻大法官會議的解釋本席認為只有一條路 實質修憲因為大法官會議解釋等同憲法你要把大法官會議的解釋你要把它給推翻掉的話除了大法官自己把它推翻掉以外就剩下一條路 實質修憲不是這樣子嗎 副秘書長請教"},{"start":448.752,"end":472.819,"text":"因為就如剛委員所提到那個釋字185還有後來的那個限訴法38條第一項他都明文規定說憲法法庭的那個判決呢他是有拘束各機關跟人民的那個效力的那所以各機關呢他有實現判決內容的義務那因此就是說當然就是說那個立法院呢他就就這個那個公投"},{"start":473.319,"end":499.875,"text":"他是可以做出決定說交付那個有關於重大政策的那個爭議是可以交付那個公民公投這個部分我想是屬於那個民主原則這個沒有問題只是說那個做出來的如果說是全民公投之後所創制出來的這個決定呢他最後還是要經過那個相關的那個機關做必要那個處置那這個部分呢如果說是依照剛剛那個4-185"},{"start":502.837,"end":518.945,"text":"還有憲訴法38條這個規定呢他都還是要遵循憲法法憲法法庭判決的這個內容的是當然是沒有錯啦但是所以說啊講到最後就是大家都嘎嘎唧唧啦大家都認為是公投其實是"},{"start":521.286,"end":536.656,"text":"可以取代整個立法院的其實也未必啦那個除非說立法院的怠惰公投其實畢竟到最後他還是只是一個補充啦不然每天都來公投就好了最後我要請回我請那個警政署署長我要來請教你一下啦"},{"start":540.057,"end":550.768,"text":"所以這個罷免連署裡面有發生很多干擾連署應該你們也都很清楚啦像譬如說監控啦 燈燒啦或是說去到現場裡面去看到差不多都是"},{"start":555.27,"end":579.544,"text":"你看這次大家在反映的就是台中在罷免的 你就發現就是 立委的助理啦 里長啦 一些調查卡站在那裡 那個很明顯就是實質的一個監控啦可是這個也有一個很為難的地方 這跟選拔法又比較不一樣選拔法像譬如說我們在投票所 你說三十公席 你就不可以換那個對不對但問題就是說你在連署的時候 你也不可能要連署在哪一個點啊"},{"start":580.744,"end":609.386,"text":"這又不是像實質已經進入到所謂的在投票啦我們的選拔法那裡都有規定這是只有罷免在連署而已連署我也有可能來採取要我自己來寫一張啊寫一張啊 你說我給你寫一張 你說要求三十公尺都不能有人去買 這也很奇怪啦但重點就是說針對罷免連署有這些監控跟盯騷的這種情況我們警政署有沒有可能去通令各地方警察局你們要有一個指引啊"},{"start":610.186,"end":622.74,"text":"不然會灰你知道嗎 會灰啊不管是要罷免啦 選舉啦要去罷免連署 你說我還要勇氣把他連署下去這個國家就不正常啦這個國家就不正常啦你就說要罷免 我就說 欸 張署長 我就說你就不錯"},{"start":625.763,"end":629.226,"text":"人家要去跟他罷免,我說不可以,我們也能公開說啊我說你很壞,我就是要跟他罷免,他就有勇氣我講到勇氣的話,你除非是基於人情啦那又沒話講嘛,道德勸搜、講正頭的,比較不要去人情但如果是什麼黑衣人啦,什麼民意代表、立委的助理、議員的助理站在那個地方,你看,你覺得真的要簽下去"},{"start":648.404,"end":673.494,"text":"實質上產生這種威嚇我們警政署或者我們的基層警察人員面對這一些有人去舉報的時候你們是不是應該有一個指引好 包委員就是說對於連署的這個現場就是有各種樣態嘛是啊那就是如果有牽涉到違法那我們當然就是會依法來做偵辦那如果還沒有進入到違法的這個狀況我們大概都是會勸導跟勸離啦"},{"start":674.935,"end":696.156,"text":"是啦,這基本的前提就是說,我們在投票,我們就主流行使我們的投票權嘛,我們要去跟人家罷免,那也是主流去行訴嘛,那其實在整個憲法的設計裡面,選舉跟罷免,那其實是權力是一樣大的啦,一樣大的,是說,你後面罷免這個又過了一個階段嘛,你又過了一個階段的時候,你說行政部門每天我們"},{"start":698.523,"end":727.293,"text":"講到最後又是立法院的怠惰我們沒有辦法去把它弄得更細緻啦那但是因為法律在這個方面目前還沒有規範的時候你總是要執法嗎我們就是會排除現場的這個會干擾或影響的這個狀況那這個讓連署或者是罷免的這個過程當中只要適合符合規定的話讓它可以順利的做進行就是不要到現場的干擾這個是我們警政部門應該有的該做的事情啦好不好 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今天前面幾位委員大家可能關注的議題大概也都有很多是相同的那我們也就剛剛召委有提到的南非的這個部分因為去年十月還有今年一月三月南非政府其實他都有動作首先是把我們的名稱等級還有我們把它調降了"},{"start":37.871,"end":57.281,"text":"從台灣代表處把它降級成貿易辦事處然後第二個是要求我們要遷離首都這個也有很多次的機會在這裡其實跟部長都曾經有過詢答那到現在其實他們變本加厲現在直接在南非的官網上面他就刪除我們代表"},{"start":60.482,"end":78.544,"text":"住處代表廖文哲的資訊現在僅剩下三個比較低階的助理的名稱另外第二個是台灣住處的郵件地址相關的資訊他直接就把它改到約翰尼斯堡了"},{"start":79.185,"end":81.047,"text":"所以就這個部分因為部長也一直提到說我們目前的住處其實運作是正常的可是我們也擔心因為過去有一些我們的邦交國或者我們有一些相關的這些"},{"start":96.118,"end":102.462,"text":"其實他有過一些往例第一就是接下來他可能被斷水斷電或者會驅逐代表甚至就沒收我們的館產那外交部是不是有更積極的作為因為他們已經逐步一直在這樣做剛剛部長也提到說他們現在好像是他們在拖可是他在拖的過程當中是他們有動作而我們看不到我們有任何的動作這個部長現在是怎麼樣的做法"},{"start":126.138,"end":126.158,"text":"好"},{"start":127.657,"end":156.9,"text":"跟委員報告當然我們外交處境很困難我們就是實質上這個我們駐南非代表處是還正常在運作不過他不斷的有這些不管片面的改名或者是說這個降級那我們也是不斷在交涉當中那因為今年是很特別我想今年這個南非要召開G20他跟中國的關係但同樣的跟美國的關係也是另外一個我們看到很緊張"},{"start":158.28,"end":178.506,"text":"那南非的總統最近也去訪美那之前川普總統還有這個盧比奧這個國務卿啊也都對於南非甚至驅除他駐美國的這個大使那國內也一樣他的這個不管是說在野黨連執政聯盟裡面的人也反對那他要片面的行動如果他違反協議或違法"},{"start":180.607,"end":183.688,"text":"這是有責任的所以為什麼他今天做這些動作看起來都好像在交代什麼那我們當然要審慎因應因為這隨時有可能會有一些行動您剛剛說的像美國他們有一些做法或者他們國內有一些做法那個倒是其次我們比較在乎的是我們的做法還有我們現在的處境因為"},{"start":204.872,"end":214.578,"text":"那不管怎麼樣他已經做了而且我剛剛提到的狀況是不是有可能發生我們外交部要怎麼因應如果等到被斷水斷電代表被驅逐或我們所有的相關的人員被驅逐或者甚至我們的館產被沒收走到這一步的時候我們要怎麼辦這個部分是外交部應該要做的我們都做好應變計畫舉個例子好不好"},{"start":230.167,"end":253.628,"text":"就是不管是他如果採取一些非法行為我們應該怎麼因應那包括實際上的但確保我們領悟人員的安全或是國人辦理這一些事務的一個這個權利那我們都有因應的對策也有相對等的反應我想先前也談過"},{"start":257.97,"end":281.504,"text":"我們還是有一些可以就是反制他包括在經貿還有其他方面但是我們現在也不好先講啦因為他現在沒有實質上的給我們書面資料好不好因為現在顯然大概也提不出什麼樣具體的一個有效的應對的過程有一些策略必須要先準備好不能夠先講出來但是"},{"start":283.385,"end":286.306,"text":"我們是有反制他的 從雙邊的貿易我們是貿易 我們對他來講是順差 我們是逆差嘛這裡面很多的項目我們可以轉移啊 購買或投資如果他這麼做 他都不在乎連美國要處置他 他也不在乎可見其實我們的就是非洲這個"},{"start":308.467,"end":318.45,"text":"成長機會法案所以對他這些都不在乎的情況之下我們可以有什麼樣的有效的具體做法現在這樣看起來是要沒有啦所以我們請部長提供給我們書面資料那個不是升高因為我們一直被挨打我們已經被羞辱"},{"start":329.793,"end":331.954,"text":"這個如果我們沒有一個做法都沒有做我們聽不到嚴正的抗議給我們書面資料因為目前還看不到書面資料請匯合提供那另外最近因為有一個人事的安排就是林昶佐可能要派駐芬蘭去"},{"start":349.059,"end":353.202,"text":"去作為我們的大使那在這裡我想要請教以他的資歷其實剛剛部長也提到可能有很多人他大概都可以升任可是我想要請教的是現在派他到芬蘭是期待他可以做什麼"},{"start":368.868,"end":390.305,"text":"我想在我們的總和外交下他是一方面價值外交嘛跟不管是人權文化這方面在北歐五國是特別重視那以他在NGO包括在這個國際特赦組織還有他過去參加的國際會議是符合這些條件事實上每個國會議員包括委員您都足以升任我們的大使啦"},{"start":390.845,"end":395.17,"text":"姑且不論啦 因為你說他過去在NGO的背景還有在立法委員任內的一個表現等等可是他現在大家可能會提到不管是他逃避兵役或者甚至像他沒有具備這樣的一個"},{"start":409.346,"end":413.128,"text":"外交專業其實我覺得外交專業反而還是比較重要的剛剛部長提到的這些我想要請教的是我們目前在我們職業外交官裡面我們找不到這樣的人才嗎可以具備這樣的條件然後又有經驗然後又是我們考試經過考試進步服務的這樣的外交人員難道沒有這樣的人才適合去那裡嗎"},{"start":434.981,"end":452.227,"text":"跟委員報告我們是現在做區域聯防來推動總和外交我北歐五國我是有整體佈局的芬蘭、丹麥、瑞典、挪威、冰島等等所以這個整體的佈局是會交叉的火網那產生最大的綜合效應是基於這個區域就像中東歐"},{"start":454.028,"end":478.238,"text":"好 部長您說到聯訪的這個部分因為我們一直在我剛剛詢問的也是為什麼會是林昶佐來擔任代表我們的專業的外交官沒有辦法做到你說像要區域聯訪因為現在包括像美國其實他自己都不想對北約有更大的付出所以我們現在是要參與聯訪是我們要出錢的意思不是 我們區域聯訪"},{"start":483.3,"end":485.86,"text":"對區檢訪他會對他們套語言因為從過去到現在你說這北歐五國我們用現實面來看過去包括像芬蘭他們在很多的代表其實都很直接講話都非常直白他們跟我們的關係就僅止於可能在用餐大家在很多的場合上面可能就是這樣子的一個關係而已他們講得非常直接今天如果我們對於"},{"start":513.285,"end":521.212,"text":"這個北歐五國有特別的安排顯然包括我們自己專業外交官都沒有辦法你們認為沒有辦法去做那可見我們是不是有什麼樣的承諾或者我們要做出什麼樣的一個付出或者我們要出什麼樣的錢才需要特殊的人去擔任這樣的職務今天在這裡我想部長是不是可以簡要的說明一下"},{"start":538.365,"end":567.625,"text":"其實芬蘭在二五戰爭發生之後已經申請加入北約芬蘭的民防 全社會防禦任性是跟台灣現在交流包括像海嵐的事件被破壞這個都是台灣現在跟包括跟歐洲這一些北歐或者是波羅的海或者是英國他們是跟海洋國家的關係很緊密我們跟芬蘭也已經簽了航權就是今年二月所以未來也會執航"},{"start":568.666,"end":582.846,"text":"是這樣的一個戰略要地牽動的北歐還有波羅的海甚至中東歐我們具有外交國防委員會專長的人到那邊去我是覺得是會進一步來加成總和外交的效應"},{"start":584.067,"end":611.094,"text":"對 您剛剛一直提到說他是在外交國防的這樣子的一個背景可是我要再次提醒因為好像沒有辦法提出來說我們專業外交官為什麼做不到第一 這個會打擊到我們職業外交官的士氣因為本來就有很多資歷足夠的這些資深的職業外交官其實他是可以派任的其實我們最重要的是用人為財還有能力今天如果"},{"start":611.914,"end":615.476,"text":"我說的是職業外交官喔對 因為我們北歐這五個國家其他都是現在你已經把他排除這些專業的外交官第二個是這些駐外的單位包括像瑞士、希臘、愛爾蘭等等其實我們有很多的外館我們人力是不足的今天如果你用的是沒有經驗的這樣子的一個外交人員用特任的這樣的方式去派任"},{"start":640.868,"end":644.192,"text":"他要怎麼樣去領導這些專業的外交團隊他怎麼樣交出很好的外交成績我覺得這個都是存疑的所以在這裡我們還是希望我們在用人尤其現在面對所有的"},{"start":656.989,"end":658.731,"text":"整個國際處境其實是比較凶險的狀況之下像歐盟現在其實他們也急著要跟中國大陸其實要有更密切的這些往來所以在這個部分我們還是希望我們不要"},{"start":673.227,"end":689.978,"text":"對我們專業外交官其實在這段時間其實很明顯的看得出來他們在升遷的上面其實都受到很嚴重的打壓如果都是派這些特任的像這些外交官其實我們為他們報區在這裡我們還是要提醒如果他可以特別為我們做什麼是不是會後也請外交部提供一個熟面報告"},{"start":697.563,"end":703.268,"text":"因為這個案子還在作業中 如果總統府正式公告 因為委員官我也是很殘忍啦 心理說明啦就是你至少做一個比較嘛 就是說職業外交官做不到的 而他可以做得到請給我們一個說法 是要等正式公告之後"},{"start":717.58,"end":720.781,"text":"因為現在都是外面的報導因為已經都報導了那當然我作為一個政務官我也是比較能夠給予資訊沒關係因為總統大概他會不會公告他不會因為說我們提出這樣的一個比較或者說法有所改變剛剛提到的海嵐其實海嵐"},{"start":737.148,"end":741.911,"text":"在我們台灣周邊的海域跟北歐五國其實是不太一樣的我們現在面對大陸的不管漁船或者其他的鐵殼船或者其他的這些海嵐會受到攻擊或者破壞跟北歐五國是不可同對而語所以我們現在已經要改我們現在已經要漸漸不要用海嵐了所以我們跟這麼遠的國家需要做什麼"},{"start":762.722,"end":768.605,"text":"在我現在的理解來看好像我們必須要付出更多的資源這是我的理解如果不會我們希望給我們一些好的一個說法跟一個條件好不好在作業中再跟委員報告 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":148,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（9時57分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：委員好。"],["馬委員文君：今天前面幾位委員大家關注的議題大概也都有很多是相同的，我也要就教剛剛召委有提到的南非部分，因為去年10月還有今年1月、3月，南非政府其實都有動作，首先是把我們的名稱等級調降了，從臺灣代表處降級成貿易辦事處。第二個是要求我們要遷離首都，這個部分也有很多次的機會在這裡跟部長都曾經有過詢答，現在他們變本加厲，直接在南非官網上面刪除我們駐處代表廖文哲的資訊，現在僅剩下3個比較低階的助理名稱，再來是直接把臺灣駐處郵件地址的相關資訊改到約翰尼斯堡。就這個部分，部長也一直提到目前我們的駐處運作是正常的，可是我們也擔心，因為過去我們有一些邦交國或者有一些相關的駐處或代表處其實都有過一些往例，第一，接下來可能被斷水、斷電或者會驅逐代表，甚至沒收我們的館產，外交部是不是有更積極的作為？因為他們已經逐步一直在這樣做。剛剛部長也提到，現在好像是他們在拖，可是在拖的過程當中是他們有動作，而我們看不到我們有任何的動作，部長，請問現在是什麼樣的作法？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，我們的外交處境很困難，實質上，我們駐南非代表處還是正常在運作，不過它不斷的有這些動作，不管是片面的改名或者是降級，我們也是不斷在交涉當中。因為今年很特別，今年南非要召開G20，還有它跟中國的關係，但同樣地我們看到它跟美國的關係也是很緊張，南非的總統最近也去訪美，之前川普總統還有盧比歐國務卿也都對於南非，甚至驅逐它駐美國的大使，國內也一樣，不管是在野黨，連執政聯盟裡面的人也反對。它要片面的行動，如果它違反協議或違法，這是有責任的，所以為什麼它今天做這些動作看起來都好像在交代什麼，我們當然要審慎因應，因為隨時有可能會有一些行動。"],["馬委員文君：部長剛剛說的，像美國有一些作法或者他們國內有一些作法，那個倒是其次，我們比較在乎的是我們的作法，還有我們現在的處境，因為不管怎麼樣它已經做了，而且我剛剛提到的狀況是不是有可能發生，外交部要怎麼因應？如果等到被斷水、斷電、代表被驅逐或是我們所有的相關人員被驅逐，甚至我們的館產被沒收，走到這一步的時候，我們要怎麼辦？這個部分是外交部應該要做的。"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，我們都做好應變計畫。"],["馬委員文君：舉個例子，好不好？要怎麼應變？"],["林部長佳龍：它如果採取一些非法行為，我們應該怎麼因應，包括實際上確保我們領務人員的安全或是國人辦理這一些事務的權利，我們都有因應的對策，也有相對等的反應，我想先前也談過我們還是有一些可以反制的作為，包括在經貿，還有其他方面，只是我們現在也不好先講。"],["馬委員文君：現在都還不動？"],["林部長佳龍：因為它現在沒有實質上的……"],["馬委員文君：給我們書面資料好不好？因為現在顯然大概也提不出什麼樣具體有效的應對作法。"],["林部長佳龍：有一些策略必須要先準備好，不能夠先講出來，但是我們是有反制它的作法，比如從雙邊的貿易……"],["馬委員文君：我們的看法有些不太一樣。"],["林部長佳龍：雙邊貿易對他來講是順差，我們是逆差，這裡面有很多的項目我們可以轉移、購買或投資。"],["馬委員文君：如果這麼做它都不在乎，連美國要處置它，它也不在乎，可見其實我們的處置方式……"],["林部長佳龍：就是非洲成長暨機會法案（AGOA）。"],["馬委員文君：所以連它自己都不在乎的情況之下，我們可以有什麼樣有效的具體作法？現在這樣看起來是還沒有，所以請部長提供給我們書面資料。"],["林部長佳龍：有啦！只是我們不希望不斷地升高……"],["馬委員文君：那個不是升高，因為我們一直挨打，我們已經被羞辱了，如果我們連一個作法都沒有做……"],["林部長佳龍：我們已經表達嚴正的抗議。"],["馬委員文君：我們聽不到嚴正的抗議，給我們書面資料，因為目前還看不到，書面資料請會後提供。"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["馬委員文君：另外，最近有一個人事安排，就是林昶佐可能要派駐芬蘭担任大使，我想要請教以他的資歷，剛剛部長也提到可能有很多人都可以勝任，可是我想要請教的是，現在派他到芬蘭是期待他可以做什麼？"],["林部長佳龍：在我們的總合外交之下，一方面是價值外交，不管是人權、文化，這方面在北歐五國是特別重視，以他在NGO，包括在國際特赦組織的背景，還有他過去參加的國際會議是符合這些條件，事實上，每個國會議員包括委員，都足以勝任我們的大使。"],["馬委員文君：姑且不論他過去在NGO的背景，還有在立法委員任內的表現等等，可是現在大家可能會提到，不管是他逃避兵役，甚至是他沒有具備外交專業，其實我覺得外交專業反而是比較重要的，剛剛部長提到的這些，我想要請教的是，目前在職業外交官裡面，我們找不到這樣的人才嗎？可以具備這樣的條件，然後又有經驗、又是經過考試進部服務的外交人員，難道沒有這樣的人才適合去那裡嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：跟委員報告，我們現在做區域聯防來推動總合外交，關於北歐五國我是有整體布局的，芬蘭、丹麥、瑞典、挪威、冰島等等，所以這個整體的布局會交叉活化，以產生最大的綜合效應，是基於這個區域，就像中東歐……"],["馬委員文君：好，部長說到聯防這個部分，因為我剛剛詢問的也是為什麼會由林昶佐來擔任代表，我們專業的外交官沒有辦法做到你說的區域聯防？因為現在包括美國，其實他自己都不想對北約有更大的付出，所以我們現在要參與聯防是我們要出錢的意思？"],["林部長佳龍：不是，我們區域聯防啦！"],["馬委員文君：對，區域聯防會不會距離我們太遠？"],["林部長佳龍：譬如說芬蘭……"],["馬委員文君：因為從過去到現在，你說這北歐五國，我們用現實面來看，過去包括芬蘭，他們很多代表其實都很直接，講話都非常直白，他們跟我們的關係就僅止於可能在用餐，大家在很多場合上面，可能就是這樣子的關係而已，他們講得非常直接。","今天如果我們對於北歐五國有特別的安排，顯然包括我們自己專業外交官都沒有辦法，你們認為沒有辦法去做，可見我們是不是有什麼樣的承諾或者我們要做出什麼樣的付出或者我們要出什麼樣的錢，才需要特殊的人去擔任這樣的職務？今天在這裡，部長是不是可以簡要地說明一下？"],["林部長佳龍：其實芬蘭在俄烏戰爭發生之後已經申請加入北約……"],["馬委員文君：對，2024年就加入了。"],["林部長佳龍：芬蘭的民防，全社會防衛韌性是跟臺灣在交流，包括像海纜被破壞的事件，這都是臺灣現在跟歐洲這一些、北歐或者是波羅的海或者是英國，他們跟海洋國家的關係很緊密，我們跟芬蘭也已經簽了航權，就是今年2月，所以未來也會直航，所以這樣的一個戰略要地牽動了北歐、波羅的海甚至中東歐，我們具有外交及國防委員會專長的人到那邊去，我覺得會進一步來加乘總合外交的效應。"],["馬委員文君：您剛剛一直提到他有在外交及國防這樣子的一個背景，可是我要再次提醒，因為好像沒有辦法提出我們專業外交官為什麼做不到，第一，這個會打擊到我們職業外交官的士氣，因為本來就有很多資歷足夠資深的職業外交官，其實他是可以派任的，我們最重要的是用人唯才還有能力，今天如果……"],["林部長佳龍：現在都是啊！"],["馬委員文君：我說的是職業外交官喔！"],["林部長佳龍：對！北歐這五個國家其他都是。"],["馬委員文君：今天人家是一步一步的往上爬，現在你把這些專業的外交官排除，第二個是這些駐外的單位，包括像瑞士、希臘、愛爾蘭等等，其實我們有很多外館的人力是不足的，今天如果你用的是沒有經驗的一個外交人員，用特任這樣的方式去派任，他要怎麼樣去領導這些專業的外交團隊？他怎麼樣交出很好的外交成績？我覺得這個都是存疑的。","所以在這裡，我們還是希望我們在用人方面，尤其現在面對整個國際處境其實是比較兇險的狀況之下，像歐盟現在其實也急著要跟中國大陸有更密切的往來，所以在這個部分，我們還是希望不要對專業外交官……在這段時間裡，其實很明顯地看得出來，他們在升遷上面都受到很嚴重的打壓，如果都是派這些特任的，我們為這些外交官抱屈，我們還是要提醒，如果他可以特別為我們做什麼，是不是會後也請外交部提供一個書面報告？他可以比其他的……"],["林部長佳龍：好，因為這個案子還在作業中，如果總統府正式公告……因為委員關心，我也是很坦然的說明……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係！部長，你至少做一個比較，就是職業外交官做得到的，而他可以做得到的，請給我們一個說法或者一個……"],["林部長佳龍：是不是等正式公告之後？現在都是外面的報導，因為已經都報導了，當然我作為一個政務官，我也是比較能夠給資訊的部分，我儘量都給了……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，因為總統會不會公告，他不會因為我們提出這樣的比較或者說法而有所改變，剛剛提到的海纜，其實海纜在我們臺灣周邊的海域跟北歐五國其實是不太一樣的，我們現在面對大陸的，不管漁船或者其他鐵殼船或者其他使這些海纜受到攻擊或者破壞的，跟北歐五國是不可同日而語，所以我們現在已經要改……"],["林部長佳龍：不過有一艘中國的漁船就是……"],["馬委員文君：我們現在已經漸漸不要用海纜了，所以我們跟這麼遠的國家需要做什麼？從我現在的理解來看，好像我們必須要付出更多的資源，這是我的理解。"],["林部長佳龍：不會啦！"],["馬委員文君：如果不會，我們希望能給我們一些好的說法跟條件，好不好？謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：好，都在作業中，再跟委員報告，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君的質詢。","接下來由林楚茵上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-15","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","王定宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅美玲","林憶君","王鴻薇","陳永康"],"page_start":319,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等48案","agenda_id":"1145001_00014"}}},{"id":"161532","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161532","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f032255df051ef455528de2cce2b28366acb2fe453f4508dd4d354354e2f17e0785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:52:32 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你說逐步要完成對不對你現在要怎麼去我沒有這樣講齁你要怎麼去達成逐步的包括立法院通過的是一公斤五塊錢不是你現在只有調的一公斤1.83還有包括那一天我們在草野協商在行政院的時候院長也說要逐步去完成嘛 對不對你今天要解凍然後講今天就是要解凍這三立多到底要怎麼去怎麼去達到農民可以達到一公斤五塊錢"},{"start":134.544,"end":159.916,"text":"我第一個跟委員報告就是我們現在用的糧食產業升級的方案裡面那你可以看得到我們整個方案裡面不只照顧了水稻的農民因為對農業部來講我不只是處理水稻有要處理其他的雜糧然後第一個就是我受益的民眾增加了從22萬到36萬有增加了那更重要就水稻的種植的農民來講你可以看得到"},{"start":161.007,"end":182.557,"text":"就他的計劃輔導跟餘糧 過去農民都沒在交餘糧的如果你單看計劃跟輔導都是超過五塊錢以上所以以整體的效益來講他是對農民的動農是有保障而且是一個持續性的保障如果今天我把每一個都調高了五塊的話我可以保證"},{"start":183.797,"end":208.01,"text":"那個價格支撐不了一兩年因為大家會大量的種植水稻那相對的種植水稻後面的這個水稻的數量太多市價崩盤的時候對農民反而是不利的我想這個我跟委員做了非常多的溝通我們這個事情已經溝通過好幾次我也給你看了很多數據包括之前有好幾次的公糧價格的提高後來面積雖然有上去點點後來都下來了"},{"start":208.67,"end":234.244,"text":"這個我們經過好幾次討論了現在最重要的 最重要的我覺得第一個是立法院的通過的協議嘛 對不對一公斤五塊錢第二個我們有經過草野協商跟行政院協商這個你要落實國民黨我提醒你一個很重要的事情民間財喔 國民黨我提醒你一個很重要的事情民間財喔 國民黨我提醒你一個很重要的事情民間財喔 國民黨我提醒你一個很重要的事情民間財喔 國民黨我提醒你一個很重要的事情民間財喔 國民黨我提醒你一個很重要的事情民間財喔 國民黨我提醒你一個很重要的事情民間財喔 國民黨我提醒你一個很重要的事情民間財喔 國民黨我提醒你一個很重要的事情民間財喔"},{"start":237.771,"end":249.251,"text":"農民運動是我們台灣解嚴以後第一次最大規模最嚴重的警民的這個衝突他那時候有八大訴求裡面兩個跟你都非常有關係"},{"start":250.572,"end":268.945,"text":"第一個他要求把農委會提升為農業部嘛所以你現在才有農委部長可以當這是一個第二個當初因為美國很多農產品要進來農民上街頭抗議了77年民國77年的520很慘烈的農民運動那另外一個他裡面有一個很重要的訴求就是稻民要進來嘛"},{"start":270.026,"end":295.947,"text":"所以他們要求美國稻米要進來他們要求做兩件事情公糧的收購價格要保證適度的提高第二個 面積要能夠一些保障你看這個訴求從民國77年到現在喔那我們現在跨出了一步了我們給了1公斤1.83我可以肯定這部分對農民也有幫助了可是後續另外這三分之二怎麼去做到部長你今天要給我一個報告啦說實在的 這三億多這個預算其實"},{"start":300.305,"end":319.274,"text":"我那時候本來是要砍的喔 本來是要砍一億的預算嘛 對不對我們經過溝通嘛 我沒有砍喔 一毛錢都沒有砍喔可是我們包括跟楊瓊英 張家俊我們就一月會凍結百分之三十嘛 對不對我現在算下來就是這兩三億那你要給我一個 例如說那時候你有談到說你要下鄉去去做說明嘛 對不對我們市府中聯"},{"start":321.855,"end":337.902,"text":"我跟委員報告一個數據就好我們推動糧食產業升級方案的時候繳工糧的面積少了5000公頃那些農民跑到哪邊去了那些農民他去做集團栽培他不繳工糧用集團栽培同樣造用"},{"start":338.462,"end":359.017,"text":"用種稻但是他用品牌的方式去提高他的收益這個才是我們想要的我希望我們所有農民種稻是用他的品質用他的市場價格去支撐他的所得而不是靠政府的價格去支撐那也希望委員來支持我想這個部分做了一年兩年那個成效一定會出來的"},{"start":359.875,"end":378.962,"text":"我之前在嘉義參觀那個月桃故事館他們成立一個那個食農的那個教育基地那那個什麼光嘉義那個三光米啊現在說要銷到日本光是一個三光米就20萬噸對不對今年我們輸到日本的過往大概每一年平均大概3900多公斤"},{"start":381.003,"end":392.636,"text":"今年可以超高9000到10000噸所以我們用更好的米我們鼓勵農民做更好的米然後去外銷比你繳公糧放在公糧倉庫好很多所以我希望委員給我們一個機會就是讓我們"},{"start":395.759,"end":424.024,"text":"這個制度這個沒有衝突啦我們的米能夠銷到日本銷到比較好的國家更好的這個價格我真的有衝突喔三光米這個嘉義幸福米這個我們就是我們驕傲嘛所以多去推動讓他們可以賣到日本賣更好價格可是相對的普遍的這個農民工糧收購我講過了民國七十七年開始農民我們現農基層的農民那時候就要求了嘛我們現在日本的股你已經過了你現在也做一部分我現在要求說你三萬七千要補償要補償要補償我先跟你講一下你今天要通過這個"},{"start":426.007,"end":452.567,"text":"解凍的這個百分之三十業務費你今天要提出因為等一下會會討論嘛對不對你要加俊啊等一下那個當初我們有共同討論的其他立委都在待會要解凍這個預算你要給我一個很明確的這樣老實講農民也在等農民要高興那個一公頃可以多收兩萬塊的時候他們也在想說你我們答應他的立盤過的還沒有我們要走去補起來你等一下想一下你這個我先質詢可是老實講解凍之前我們要解決這問題"},{"start":454.913,"end":478.674,"text":"我跟委員報告齁 您說的都變成五塊錢的時候那相對的所有的民糧都沒有辦法活下去它就不種民糧了 我們就沒有好的米外銷了民糧就你說有些銷到日本 有些比很好大家就搶著一點當你工糧的價格變高的時候 你的民糧就沒辦法支撐下去就沒有好的米外銷了 也沒有好的米給國人 我們的民眾來吃啦"},{"start":479.595,"end":486.044,"text":"這個就是我們考慮的公糧價格太高的時候民糧沒辦法生存的時候那相對的他沒有辦法做好的米"},{"start":487.682,"end":513.863,"text":"這個就是所以我說糧食產業升級拜託你現在變成是太高的問題我們經過好幾次溝通你要逐步把我們什麼去達成嗎所以你是先調了1公斤1公斤增加2萬塊就是反映他的成本那反映他的成本以後我們用集團栽培去拉高他的產品的品質然後透過產品品質提高讓消費者認同來提高他的收入"},{"start":514.683,"end":536.199,"text":"這個方法才是持久的你剛才在聽邱議員在說沒有那個成本13年沒調 你看他們連那個災損都要求要提高了工糧收購當然 除了現在調了三分之一 三分之二怎麼去補給沒關係你等一下給我一個案子啦等一下我們 反正解凍之前沒有的話就保留 我們到議員會再繼續來談來另外我問一下 你們看到那個4100億的那個特別條例嘛你本錢是一百八十億對不對"},{"start":543.393,"end":556.399,"text":"那我們台灣民眾黨啊認為在強化農業金融還有提升產業的這個競爭跟協助這個多元這個市場我們大幅提高喔我們要求把它提高到300億你贊不贊成"},{"start":558.979,"end":585.662,"text":"基本上我們提出來的這個180億那這個180億是針對現在目前關稅10%到32%之間可能的浮動我們設計出來的短期之內協助我們的受影響的業者的金融資金的負擔中長期是增加他的產業的韌性所以180億我們初步看起來是夠的但是如果說關稅"},{"start":586.943,"end":591.865,"text":"整體的關稅有你現在不要提高嗎我跟委員報告就是說後續如果不足的話我們會用追加預算的方式來處理"},{"start":602.849,"end":628.965,"text":"幹嘛追加 你就支持民進黨的300億就好啦你現在變180 連民進黨 不要說國民黨跟在野黨我們是要支持我們的農民農業啊沒有 當然我知道說越多的經費給農業部當然越好可是相對的在現在的情況之下我們覺得現在用180億去處理是可以去處理的那後續如果不足的話我們會循程序去做追加預算的方式來處理"},{"start":630.266,"end":653.604,"text":"因為他畢竟 特別預算畢竟是三年嘛 兩年半快三年嘛那如果不夠 因為整個關稅的不確定性太高了 現在關稅如果博定你等一下再想一下啦 其實報告面這段禮拜都沒說這八百一百八十億是太少了不是 現在關稅的不確定性太高了啊 不知道不要用追加的 你至少三百億是要來 我問另外一個問題齁 那個最近那個美債引起很多討論"},{"start":655.103,"end":683.633,"text":"我有去查我們的農業金庫啊5年10億塊錢,我們因為買美債大家知道嗎?我們已經虧損,虧損5年,包括你們農業部自己的資料嘛虧損了50億最近,到目前,那現在呢?有沒有繼續買?現在虧損多少錢?這個我沒辦法現在回答你我可以了解以後再跟你講他農業金庫到底有沒有繼續買美債這個我不清楚,我現在沒辦法回答"},{"start":685.948,"end":711.944,"text":"你現在手上沒有資料對我手上沒有這個事情算很重要這個是我們去跟美國最近要關稅談判應該會談到的餒對因為農業金庫是我們農業因為我們買了很多啊就是因為農業我們現在是幫人民看緊荷包也幫農民看緊荷包啊對不對啊去年你11月底的統計你已經了過了為了美債已經因為利息一直在升嘛所以你已經損失了50億啊啊你現在關稅在談判的時候會提到這個對你來講應該很重要啊"},{"start":713.641,"end":733.361,"text":"沒關係 部長 你那個 你三天內 因為這個本來就應該有了你報告一件談判也要這個資料啦 你三天內給我談判不需要這個資料對農業部來講 談判不需要這個資料不需要這個資料不需要說我有多少美債他們如果要 美國要求我們再繼續買美債你要不要的話 你這個基本資料要有啊"},{"start":735.455,"end":755.217,"text":"我們的納稅錢 農民的錢你一直虧損 你怎麼沒有準備不是我想美債的買賣以農業經過來講他有他的那個董建市的決議嘛那相對的我因為現在沒有辦法手上沒有這個資料他到底買了多少美債那我想我會後"},{"start":757.097,"end":783.504,"text":"會請問他們來提供委員這份資料我背後再資料給你主席這裡面有兩個問題啦第一個就是因為虧損累累嘛第二個就是因為你一直在講說你的獨立董事沒有發揮功能這是這兩個問題啦好沒關係 保證我告訴你現在統統這是人民的荷包啦也是農民的這個荷包啦你儘快 三天OK嘛你查一下你到底從11月底已經虧損50億你後來有沒有再買買了多少 對不對"},{"start":784.977,"end":798.449,"text":"因為買多少 第二個統計一下了解要看錢 好不好 那如果虧損的話就不能繼續買啦不只台灣啊 全世界都沒有在討論說要繼續買美債啊 對不對這是跟所有人 跟川普 跟美國在談判裡面最重要一個問題欸"},{"start":801.36,"end":826.058,"text":"第一個已經虧損了所以不能再虧嘛對不對啊如果有啊所以我要清楚說你到底有沒有在買有虧損多少這個資料我後續會提供資料給你我現在沒辦法回答因為我沒辦法這應該是現成的資料嘛對不對這應該可以調得到我不知道可不可以如果可以提供我一定會提供第一個前提就是說他們這個購買你那時候公佈為什麼這個東西不能提供這是公開資料啊我不知道齁"},{"start":826.758,"end":843.438,"text":"這個我不敢確定因為每個公司或是每個這些東西它有相關的一個規範如果能夠提供給委員的我一定提供包括他們買什麼樣的一個債券什麼樣的東西是不是他們的內部資料還是可公開的這個我必須確認如果可以我一定提供給你"},{"start":843.979,"end":862.814,"text":"部長第一個你們以前公佈過啦這也是對前面要負責我不清楚啦但是所以我我回去會了解儘快在三天內你儘快在三天內給我我說可以的話我一定提供OK好要看緊人民的荷包幫農民啊鄉長當然你今天那個要解凍那個解凍那個錢供應收報那個提高五塊錢等一下給我方案好謝謝好謝謝張七開委員那下一位請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":256,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時52分）請陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：部長早。最近我回去南部，我看到漂亮的稻田陸陸續續都在收成，農民也是很感謝，包括經立法院通過之後，農業部也提高公糧收購的價格，我算了一下，至少1公斤大概提高1.83，差不多1公頃可以多收2萬塊錢，對農民不無小補，這算是一個好消息。不過部長，這跟我們原來的標準還差了三分之二，這也是為什麼今天要談解凍案，這次農業部最大的凍結有兩個案子，一個是業務費8億302萬，凍結30%，2億4,090萬；另外有一筆農政的業務費，也凍結了大概1億左右了，今天最重要的就是3億左右的這個經費到底要不要解凍？我剛剛講有好消息是已經幫了我們農民，1公頃公糧收購大概可以增加2萬嘛！對不對？接下來還剩下這三分之二，你上次有答應我，你說要逐步完成對不對？你現在怎麼去達成？"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有這樣講喔！"],["張委員啓楷：你要怎麼逐步的去達成……包括我們立法院通過的是1公斤5塊錢，不是你現在調的只有1公斤1.83，還有包括那一天我們在朝野協商、在行政院的時候，院長也說要逐步去完成嘛！對不對？老實講，今天就是要解凍這三億多，到底要怎麼讓農民可以達到1公斤5塊錢？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，就是我們現在用的糧食產業升級方案裡面，你可以看得到我們整個方案不只照顧了水稻的農民，因為對農業部來講，我不只是處理水稻，也要處理其他的雜糧，然後第一個就是受益的民眾增加了，從22萬到36萬，有增加了，更重要就種植水稻的農民來講，你可以看得到藉由計畫、輔導跟餘糧，過去農民都沒有在交餘糧的，如果你單看計畫跟輔導都是超過5塊錢以上，所以以整體的效益來講，它對稻農的農民有保障，而且是一個持續性的保障，如果今天我把每一個都調高了5塊，我可以保證，那個價格支撐不了一、兩年，因為大家會大量地種植水稻，相對地之後水稻的數量太多，市價崩盤的時候，對農民反而是不利的，我想這個我跟委員做了非常多的溝通。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，這個事情我們已經溝通過好幾次，我也給你看了很多數據，包括之前有好幾次公糧價格提高，後來面積雖然有上去一點點，最後都下來了，我們經過好幾次討論了，現在最重要的、最重要的，我覺得第一個是立法院通過的決議嘛！1公斤5塊錢；第二個，我們也經過朝野協商、行政院協商，這個你要落實，部長，我提醒你一件很重要的事情，明天……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我跟你說明天很重要，明天是520，你做農業部長一定知道，520對農民是一個非常重要……其實對農委會到現在農業部都是一個很重要的日子，民國77年農民運動是臺灣解嚴以後第一次最大規模、最嚴重的警民衝突，它那時候有八大訴求，裡面兩個跟你都非常有關係喔！第一個，它要求把農委會提升為農業部嘛！所以你現在才有農業部長可以當，這是一個。第二個，當初因為美國很多農產品要進來，農民上街頭抗議了，民國77年的520，很慘烈的農民運動。另外它裡面有一個很重要的訴求，就是美國稻米要進來，所以他們要求做兩件事情，公糧的收購價格要保證適度的提高；第二個，面積要能夠有一些保障。你看這個訴求從民國77年到現在，我們現在跨出了一步了，我們給了1公斤1.83，我可以肯定這一部分，對農民也有幫助了，可是後續另外這三分之二要怎麼去做到？部長，你今天要給我一個報告啦！說實在的，不然這三億多的預算，其實我那時候本來是要砍的喔，本來是要砍1億的預算嘛！對不對？我們經過溝通嘛！我沒有砍，1毛錢都沒有砍喔！可是包括楊瓊瓔、張嘉郡，我們就業務費凍結30%嘛！對不對？我現在算下來就是這2、3億，那你要給我一個……例如說那時候你有談到你要下鄉去做說明，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我們說明了六十幾場喔！我跟委員報告一個數據就好，我們推動糧食產業升級方案的時候，繳公糧的面積少了5,000公頃，那些農民跑到哪邊去了？那些農民去做集團栽培，他不繳公糧，用集團栽培，同樣是種稻，但是他用品牌的方式去提高他的收益，這個才是我們想要的，我希望所有農民種稻是用他的品質、用他的市場價格去支撐他的所得，而不是靠政府的價格去支撐，也希望委員來支持啦！我想這個部分做了一年、兩年，那個成效一定會出來的啦！"],["張委員啓楷：我昨天回去嘉義參觀月桃故事館，他們成立一個食農的教育基地，光嘉義那個三光米，現在說要銷到日本，光是一個三光米就20萬噸，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：今年我們輸到日本的，過往每一年平均大概三千九百多公噸，今年可以9,000到1萬噸，所以我們鼓勵農民做更好的米，然後去外銷，比你繳公糧放在公糧倉庫好很多，所以我希望委員給我們一個機會，就是讓這個制度做一、兩年。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這個沒有衝突啦！我們的米能夠銷到日本、銷到比較好的國家，更好的價格，我們嘉義的三光米、嘉義幸福米，這是我們的驕傲，所以多去推動，讓他們可以賣到日本、賣更好的價格。可是相對的，普遍的農民，公糧收購我說過了，民國77年開始……"],["陳部長駿季：委員……"],["張委員啓楷：我們善良基層的農民那時候就在要求了嘛！立法院去年已經過了，你現在也做一部分，我現在就要求說你三分之二要補上來……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我先跟你說一下，你今天要通過解凍這30%的業務費，你今天要提出來，因為等一下會討論嘛！對不對？你看嘉郡其他立委都在，當初我們有共同討論的，要解凍這個預算，你要給我一個很明確的，老實講農民也在等啦，農民在高興1公頃可以多收2萬塊的時候，他們也在想我們答應他的、立法院過的、還沒有的，我們要怎麼去補起來？你等一下要想一下，我先質詢，可是老實講，解凍之前我們要解決這問題。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，以您說的都變成5塊錢的時候，那相對的，所有的民糧都沒有辦法活下去，他就不種民糧了，我們就沒有好的米外銷了。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有啊！民糧就你說有些銷到日本，有些很好的米大家搶著要，像東部的米……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，當你公糧價格變高的時候，民糧就沒辦法支撐下去，就沒有好的米做外銷了，也沒有好的米給國人、民眾來吃啦！這個就是我們考慮的，公糧價格太高，民糧沒辦法生存的時候，那相對的，他沒有辦法做好的米，所以我說糧食產業升級拜託委員……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你說現在變成是太高的問題？我們不是經過好幾次溝通，你要逐步把什麼去達成嗎？所以你是先調了1公斤1.83……"],["陳部長駿季：所以我說我們調了1公頃增加2萬塊就是反映他的成本，反映他的成本以後，我們用集團栽培去拉高他的產品品質，然後透過產品品質提高，讓消費者認同來提高他的收入，這個方法才是持久的。"],["張委員啓楷：你剛才有在聽邱議瑩說的、林岱樺說的嗎？那個成本13年沒調，你看他們連災損都要求要提高了，公糧收購，當然除了現在調了三分之一，三分之二怎麼去補？沒關係，你等一下給我一個案子，反正解凍之前，沒有的話就保留，我們到院會再繼續來談。","另外我問一下，部長，你有看到4,100億的特別條例嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：有。"],["張委員啓楷：你本來是編180億，對不對？台灣民眾黨認為在強化農業金融，還有提升產業的競爭跟協助多元市場，我們要求大幅提高到300億，你贊不贊成？"],["陳部長駿季：我想基本上，我們提出來的180億是針對現在關稅10%到32%之間可能的浮動，我們設計出短期之內協助受影響的業者的金融資金的負擔，中長期是增加他的產業韌性，所以180億我們初步看起來是夠的，但是如果說整體的關稅有……"],["張委員啓楷：連民進黨都在罵你編太少了，你現在不要提高嗎？所以這一次你就是只要180是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我跟委員報告，就是後續如果不足的話，我們會用追加預算的方式來處理。"],["張委員啓楷：你幹嘛追加？你就支持民眾黨的300億就好啦！"],["陳部長駿季：不是……"],["張委員啓楷：你現在編180，連民進黨，不要說國民黨跟在野黨，我們是要支持我們的農民、農業啊！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：所以我們才會提高到……"],["陳部長駿季：我知道越多的經費給農業部當然越好，可是相對的，在現在的情況之下，我們覺得現在用180億是可以去處理的，後續如果不足的話，我們會循程序去做追加預算的方式來處理，因為特別預算畢竟是3年嘛！兩年半快三年嘛！如果不夠，因為整個關稅的不確定性太高了，現在關稅如果……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你等一下再想一下啦！其實包括民進黨的立委都在罵說這180億是不是太少了？再想一下。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，現在關稅的不確定性太高了，不知道……"],["張委員啓楷：不要用追加的，你至少300億是要的。我問另外一個問題，最近美債引起很多討論，我有去查我們的農業金庫，去年12月的時候我們因為買美債，大家知道嗎？我們已經虧損……這是包括農業部自己的資料嘛！去年虧損了50億，那現在有沒有繼續買？現在虧損多少錢？"],["陳部長駿季：這個我沒辦法現在回答你，我可以了解以後再跟你講，農業金庫到底有沒有繼續買美債，這個我不清楚，我現在沒辦法回答。"],["張委員啓楷：你現在手上沒有資料？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我手上沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：這件事情算很重要，這是最近我們跟美國關稅談判應該會談到的，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對，因為農業金庫是我們農業……"],["張委員啓楷：因為我們買了很多啊！我們現在是幫人民看緊荷包，也幫農民看緊荷包。去年11月底的統計，因為利息一直在升，所以農業金庫就損失了50億，現在關稅在談判的時候會提到，這個對你來講應該很重要啊！沒關係，部長，因為這本來就應該要有了，包括去談判也要這個資料，你3天內給我……"],["陳部長駿季：對農業部來講，談判不需要這個資料。"],["張委員啓楷：不需要這個資料？"],["陳部長駿季：不需要說我有多少美債。"],["張委員啓楷：如果美國要求我們再繼續買美債，你在考量要不要的話，要有這個基本資料啊！我們人民的納稅錢、農民的錢一直虧損，你怎麼可以沒有準備？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我想美債的買賣，以農業金庫來講，它有董監事的決議，因為我現在手上沒有這個資料，沒有辦法回答到底買了多少美債，我會後會請問他們，提供委員這份資料。"],["主席：會後再把資料給……"],["張委員啓楷：主席，不好意思，再1分鐘，我知道主席已經站起來了。部長，這裡面有兩個問題，第一個，因為虧損累累。第二個，你一直講說你的獨立董事沒有發揮功能，就是這兩個問題。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：好，沒關係，部長，這是人民的荷包，也是農民的荷包，你儘快，3天OK嘛，你查一下，農業金庫從11月底已經虧損50億，後來有沒有再買？買了多少？第二個，統計一下賠錢還是賺錢，好不好？如果虧損的話，就不能繼續買，不只臺灣，全世界都在討論要不要繼續買美債，這是跟所有人、跟川普、跟美國在談判裡面最重要的一個問題。第一個，已經虧損了，所以不能再虧，對不對？所以我要清楚了解到底有沒有再買？虧損了多少？"],["陳部長駿季：我後續會提供資料給你，我現在沒辦法回答，因為我沒辦法……"],["張委員啓楷：我知道，這應該是現成的資料，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：這應該可以調得到，但我不知道可不可以提供，如果可以，我一定會提供。"],["張委員啓楷：好啦！"],["陳部長駿季：第一個前提就是他們這個……"],["張委員啓楷：你那時候有公布，為什麼不能提供？這是公開資料啊！"],["陳部長駿季：這個我不知道，我不敢確定，因為每個公司或是這些東西有相關的規範，如果能夠提供給委員的，我一定提供，包括他們買什麼樣的債券、什麼樣的東西、是不是他們的內部資料，還是可公開的，這個我必須確認，如果可以，我一定提供給你。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，第一個，你們以前公布過，這也是要對全民負責，為什麼不能公開？"],["陳部長駿季：我不清楚，所以我回去會了解。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，你儘快在3天內給我。"],["陳部長駿季：如果可以的話，我一定提供。"],["張委員啓楷：好，要看緊人民的荷包、幫農民啦！最重要的，你今天要解凍的錢，公糧收購提高5塊錢的部分，等一下給我方案，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝張啓楷委員。","下一位請鄭正鈐委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-13","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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部長知道了 他當然是經過他過去 他在戰前包含他們的軍部 經濟部門 還有其他的部會 他自己實質對外行動所以導致他的外交的戰略上面是沒有統整的那這一個部分我在馬英九時代有看過"},{"start":95.228,"end":109.337,"text":"就是說包含它的農業部門外交部門它們沒有在協同就是說整個國家的方針農業在做自己的農業跟中國大量購買這個鳳梨導致我們中南部的產工全部都失衡"},{"start":110.538,"end":136.24,"text":"那個時代外交部基本上沒有在做事情為什麼 因為他們在外交修兵嘛我想大家還記得那個年代那現在不一樣了現在台灣的這個國際地位增高所以我們外交上面的能力當然是更加的不一樣所以向部長請教一下目前我國對外的各個不同的這個談判議題戰略溝通是由外交部統籌還是由 比方說如果是貿易的話由經濟啊什麼這些統籌"},{"start":138.301,"end":166.857,"text":"其實依照我們憲政體制總統他主持國家大政方針外交是總統的權但是因為部會也都會跟外交有關當然比如說行政院也有政委負責經貿談判這個部分可是我們為什麼要提總和外交就是說外交要為我們各個部會的業務服務以外各個業務的部各個部會的業務也要為外交來服務"},{"start":167.867,"end":182.996,"text":"因為其實外國看台灣是看整體他不會去切割你的部會都是找外管所以我們希望一方面強化就是說政府內部的整合從總統府跟行政院比如說現在行政院有設經濟外交工作小組那就是跨部會"},{"start":184.337,"end":207.917,"text":"這樣子在這裡做溝通協調那我們也希望落實館長制在第一線打仗是一個團隊不是各自為政各個部會負責的只是我們台灣的他們的長官他必須整合成一個可以打仗的這個團隊在各個館處那至於怎麼去我們把業務的重點目標"},{"start":209.538,"end":231.512,"text":"設定出來其實經過這一整年我們已經很清楚我們台灣外交的重點是哪一些業務所以我們不是說只是為了整合而整合整合是為了要達到我們國家生存與發展的目標而且未來的館長或大使也不一定是所謂的只有念外交科系你可能了解"},{"start":233.697,"end":254.143,"text":"經貿、文化或是現在新興科技在外交上很重要所以未來的我們外交部的人才培訓也都是跨領域除了自己職業外交官的這些比較屬於protocol比較屬於正式的外交專業以外其他領域他也要具備因為你要跟人家交涉的時候人家關心的是那些領域的議題"},{"start":255.724,"end":273.039,"text":"謝謝部長那美國包含國務卿他出去代表的是整個國家整體經濟貿易環保科技整體而言他是在統括這一切那他說的每一句話他是有他的重量是有他的戰略意義的那我看到我們外交部有一些他對外援助的報告等等的"},{"start":273.539,"end":300.627,"text":"那我是認為說為了避免我相信你也知道最近有一些不同的一些地方政府他可能會去第三地像是香港什麼的那在那邊簽署什麼事情那有人說這是兩岸的那有可能他在第四個國家甚至是有違我國的外交戰略的所以我想一元化的意思就是說讓外交部做一個戰略性的統國統整也就是說各個部門"},{"start":301.607,"end":326.885,"text":"包含我們剛剛講從科技部農業部什麼我們的外交人員他必須要掌握這些議題必須要有一些我甚至是建議這個專責的這個駐點制度那過去在這個日本的外交部的官員他們甚至是派駐到後生勞動省非常長的一段時間那一段時間他輪調完之後再回到外務省他增加他對外這個他們"},{"start":329.046,"end":347.275,"text":"衛生 公共衛生包含製藥等等為什麼這跟外交有關啊這跟彈砲也有關嘛 談判也有關所以我認為我們是可以檢討一下這是一個很大的議題這個是一個很大的議題所以我不會在這一次咨詢完就結束因為這同時又回到我們之前在講的安全合格你如果跟人家出去但是你卻沒有"},{"start":348.275,"end":365.275,"text":"國防的相關的核可那但是你卻得到這麼多的外交資訊那這些資訊如果你同時你就同時具備外交人員跟國防人員的資訊都在你身上那你有沒有足夠的授權知道這些事情所以我們現在國家要走向一人化一體化的意思就是不可以說地方政府"},{"start":365.655,"end":385.13,"text":"在做一些外交政策或在簽訂一些其實不可以啦其實不管再怎麼樣都不可以簽訂或者是主導一些政策的時候是跟國家的大政方針是不一樣的所以我也鼓勵外交部在整體的國家戰略上面定期出白皮書我看到你們有出一些對外援助等等但是國家的外交"},{"start":385.851,"end":411.127,"text":"它的方向性當你定調之後其他的農業部門才不會模稜兩可而且外交也是必須要服務於我們的農業服務於我們的經濟談判這樣才不會有矛盾的狀況也才不會有地牌委員去質詢的時候外交部是講這樣子農業部是講另外一件事情經濟談判辦公室又講另外一件事情所以這個統整很重要就是基調要一致"},{"start":411.647,"end":435.47,"text":"那如果沒有基調一致,我還很記得就是2016、2017年的時候,那時候好像在這個北非吧,我們有開那個COP,忘記是多少了,那也是環境變遷大會,各個部會全部在各自的房間裡面開會,也就是說對,早上大家晨會,由外交部統整可能講一些鼓勵的話之後,全面四散嘛,"},{"start":436.01,"end":463.582,"text":"那我覺得這很可惜我覺得那一次是有很多不同的部門從環保 從外交 從國安會全部都有派人但是他們沒有一致性就是大家還是分散性的所以我覺得部長講的這個總和外交就是會把總體戰力開始那我覺得這是一個很重要的開始所以我覺得部長不能夠把自己當部長而已他把自己當成是類似美國的這個國務卿他雖然他是"},{"start":464.582,"end":492.261,"text":"等於是實質上的他雖然是外交部長但是他不僅僅只是外交部長他的順位什麼在美國都是很重要的我很認同委員的就是說提的總和外交的方向我們會朝這個方向來辦理那我們也在編寫總和外交的報告另外我們也進行雙部長會議先從我們跟其他部會的合作項目那另外就是也是像加強您講的在人事交流所以我們最近比如國科會"},{"start":493.281,"end":513.004,"text":"就有一位很資深的那很專業的在科技外交上我們也是把他聘到就是商請能夠到外交部那他以前也駐外國類似這種人才的交流也是一個重點最後一點就是說那個外交部在集合會議的時候不可以只尊重"},{"start":513.644,"end":533.16,"text":"我們尊重經貿辦公室我們尊重國防部必須要有外交上面你們自己的sense的發言來說可能這個地方不太對的話那要講話而不是只是單純形式上的參與形式上的參與我們常看到當你沒有發言沒有對話就不信所以最後就總和外交裡面很重要就是"},{"start":534.02,"end":553.731,"text":"戰略上要一致所以總統在歐戰結束他有參加還有我們自己在這個官邸那邊有正式的會館對 會館 過去的那再來就是全部的中戰在日本不管是在長崎廣島都有紀念活動"},{"start":554.651,"end":579.736,"text":"那長期上面看起來是對我們沒有目前沒有相對的進展那我還是希望說在廣島上面做相應的努力因為它是一整套我們對於我們自己的看法就是台灣跟已經民主的國家站在一起那就算過去不民主的國家都可以轉型成功那我們的外交政策戰略是怎麼樣這個再麻煩部長謝謝趙偉"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":136,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（9時47分）我們請部長。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。總合外交基本上是部長就任以來的使命，我認為總合外交是第一步，因為不管是我過去在國安會任職還是在其他時間，我發覺外交部是屬於比較輔助的性質，也就是在做純粹的外交。可是自從部長提到總合外交之後，我發覺這剛好是符合臺灣因應國際情勢的最好狀況，包含經貿，在剛才沈委員質詢的時候你也有提到，就是我們怎麼樣把各個不同部會進行整合並且加以協助。在這個概念下，我也要提醒，如果總合外交缺乏統籌或指揮系統，那可能就沒有辦法形成協同效應。在過去外交部可能大部分的時間是做輔助的部分，有各個不同的司、各個不同的組織、各個不同的科，但是我想請教部長，部長應該知道日本過去在戰後有推展外務一元化嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長知道，日本過去在戰前包含他們的軍部、經濟部門還有其他的部會私自對外行動，所以導致在外交的戰略上面是沒有統整的。那這一個部分我在馬英九時代有看過，就是包含農業部門、外交部門沒有在協同，在整個國家的方針，農業在做自己的農業，跟中國大量購買鳳梨，導致我們中南部的產供全部都失衡，在那個時代外交部基本上沒有在做事情，為什麼？因為在外交休兵嘛！我想大家還記得那個年代，現在不一樣了，現在臺灣的國際地位提高，所以我們外交上面的能力當然是更加的不一樣。我想請教部長一下，目前我國對外各個不同的談判議題、戰略溝通是由外交部統籌嗎？還是比方說如果是貿易的話，是由經濟部統籌？"],["林部長佳龍：其實依照我們的憲政體制，總統主持國家大政方針，外交是總統的權，但是因為部會也都會跟外交有關，比如說，行政院也有政委負責經貿談判這個部分。可是我們為什麼要提總合外交？就是外交除了為我們各個部會的業務服務以外，各個部會的業務也要為外交來服務，其實外國看臺灣是看整體，他們不會去切割你的部會，他們都是找外館，所以我們希望一方面強化政府內部的整合，從總統府跟行政院做起，比如說，現在行政院有設經濟外交工作小組，那就是跨部會在做溝通、協調，我們也希望落實館長制，在第一線打仗是一個團隊，不是各自為政，各個部會負責的只是他們在臺灣的長官，而是必須將各個館處整合成一個可以打仗的團隊。至於怎麼去做，我們把業務的重點目標設定出來，其實經過這一整年，我們已經很清楚我們臺灣外交的重點是哪一些業務，所以我們並非只是為了整合而整合，整合是為了要達到我們國家生存與發展的目標。而且未來的館長或大使也不一定只有念外交科系才能擔任，也可能是了解經貿、文化，像現在新興科技在外交上很重要，所以未來我們外交部的人才培訓也都是跨領域，除了自己當職業外交官的這些比較屬於protocol、比較屬於正式的外交專業以外，對其他領域他也要具備，因為在你要跟人家交涉的時候，人家關心的是那些領域的議題。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。像美國國務卿出去時所代表的是整個國家整體經濟、貿易、環保、科技，整體而言，他是在統括這一切，那他說的每一句話都有它的重量、有它的戰略意義。我看到我們外交部有一些對外援助的報告等等，我相信你也知道最近有一些不同的地方政府可能會去第三地，像是香港或什麼地方，在那邊簽署什麼事情，有人說這是兩岸的，那有可能它在第四個國家，甚至是有違我國的外交戰略。所以我想一元化的意思就是讓外交部做一個戰略性的統整，也就是說，各個部門包含我們剛才講的科技部、農業部等，我們的外交人員必須要掌握這些議題，我甚至建議採專責的駐點制度，像過去日本的外交部官員甚至是派駐到厚生勞動省非常長的一段時間，他在那一段時間輪調完之後再回到外務省，增加他對公共衛生的了解，包含製藥等等，為什麼這跟外交有關？因為這跟談判有關。","我認為我們可以檢討一下，這是一個很大的議題，所以我不會在這一次質詢完就結束，因為這同時又回到我們之前在講的安全核可，你如果跟人家出去，你沒有與國防相關的核可，但是卻得到這麼多的外交資訊，在你身上就同時具備外交人員跟國防人員的資訊，那你有沒有足夠的授權可以知道這些事情？所以現在我們國家要走向一元化、一體化，這個意思就是說不可以地方政府在做一些外交政策、在簽訂一些……其實不可以啦，不管再怎麼樣都不可以簽訂，或者是在主導一些政策的時候跟國家的大政方針不一樣。所以我鼓勵外交部在整體的國家戰略上面定期出白皮書，我看到你們有出一些對外援助等等，但是當國家外交的方向性定調之後，其他像農業部門才不會模稜兩可，而且外交也是必須要服務於我們的農業、服務於我們的經濟談判，這樣才不會有矛盾的狀況，也才不會在立法委員去質詢的時候，外交部是講這樣子，農業部是講另外一件事情，經濟談判辦公室又講另外一件事情，所以統整很重要，就是基調要一致，如果基調沒有一致，我還記得很清楚，在2016年的時候我們有在北非開COP22，那也是環境變遷大會，各個部會全部在各自的房間裡面開會，也就是早上晨會的時候是由外交部統整，可能講一些鼓勵的話，之後就全面四散，我覺得這很可惜。那一次有很多不同的部門參與，從環保、外交到國安會全部都有派人，但是大家都沒有一致性，大家還是分散性的，所以我覺得部長講的總合外交就是會把總體戰力統整，這是一個很重要的開始。所以部長不能夠把自己當部長而已，要把自己當成類似美國的國務卿，雖然他是外交部長，但是他不僅僅只是外交部長，他的順位在美國都是很重要的。"],["林部長佳龍：我很認同委員提的總合外交方向，我們會朝這個方向來辦理，我們也在編寫總合外交報告，另外，我們也進行雙部長會議，先從我們跟其他部會的合作項目，也希望加強你講的人事交流，所以最近比如國科會就有一位在科技外交上很資深、很專業的人才，我們也商請他能夠到外交部，他以前也駐外過，類似這種人才的交流也是一個重點。"],["陳委員冠廷：最後一點，外交部在集合會議的時候不可以只尊重經貿談判辦公室或尊重國防部，必須在外交上面要有你們自己sense的發言，比如這個地方可能不太對的時候，你們要講話，而不是只是單純形式上的參與，形式上的參與我們常看到，當你們沒有發言、沒有對話就不行。最後，總合外交裡面很重要的就是戰略上要一致，總統有參加歐戰結束紀念，還有我們在官邸也有正式的會館，再來就是全部的終戰在日本，不管是在長崎、廣島都有紀念活動，長崎上面看起來是對我們目前沒有相對的進展，我還是希望在廣島上面做相應的努力，因為這是一整套我們對於自己的看法，這是臺灣以及民主的國家站在一起，就算過去不民主的國家都可以轉型成功，我們的外交政策戰略是怎麼樣，這個再麻煩部長，謝謝。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席（黃委員仁）：謝謝陳冠廷的發言。","接下來由馬文君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-15","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","王定宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅美玲","林憶君","王鴻薇","陳永康"],"page_start":319,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等48案","agenda_id":"1145001_00014"}}},{"id":"161529","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161529","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f0d07b6d4d1002497428de2cce2b28366a8b7b28ebcc841bb44c05adb7ad1365b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:40:37 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怎麼樣面對那對於我們的台灣自體的農產品對農民的保護你們應該有什麼樣的對策"},{"start":255.559,"end":278.293,"text":"這些東西這些說帖是不是能夠請農業部在很短的時間之內不管你用下鄉也好不管你是透過農會透過產銷辦透過各地方縣市政府我覺得應該都要讓農民很清楚的知道政府在對於農業的保護政策上面會做的事情應該做的事情還有"},{"start":279.173,"end":303.809,"text":"要立即去做的事情有哪些這些能不能在很短的時間內去做到我想謝謝委員的一個提醒我想相關的資料我們都已經有準備了那我們現在就會立即的去用圖卡的方式然後下降的部分讓委員說明但是我這邊要強調一件事情以農業部的立場以我現在知道我們現在對美談判的部分像最近有說米會降到百分之幾絕對不會"},{"start":305.47,"end":324.39,"text":"我覺得這個是一個就是用賴總統以零開始的這個模式去讓變成一個錯誤的訊息讓人家說稻米會降到零關稅這個不會發生因為到目前為止我們為了確保糧食安全我們對於稻米我們會一直捍衛著它的一個相關的一個現在的一個制度"},{"start":324.977,"end":347.218,"text":"好 我覺得有一些對於台灣來講它是屬於戰略安全的糧食考量的部分我認為農業部應該要提出更多更強有力的數據跟對外的說明這一塊可能要再多做一點那這一題其實我特別藉由今天質詢的機會來提出來"},{"start":350.642,"end":361.042,"text":"這個農業部裡頭現在大概組織改造有很多的這個組織其實是做了一些調整但是我們的植物防檢員跟動物防檢員"},{"start":362.751,"end":376.526,"text":"在不要說同工不同酬啦同職等不同家籍不同酬的這件事情上面部長我知道你有曾經努力過但是我不曉得為什麼人事行政總處對於我們的職務房檢員的認識"},{"start":380.73,"end":400.055,"text":"認知這麼樣的低造成我們很多植物房檢員對於他的工作不受到尊重我伯伯做房檢員有什麼做動物的他的家籍就比較高他的家籍是表10嘛那你的這個植物的是表2是比較低的嘛"},{"start":401.695,"end":423.584,"text":"我們去問過了 我相信你也知道 人事行政總署說要叫這些植物防檢員要去取得植物診療師的資格他才能比照表實的加緊植物診療師法我們去年才通過 今年8月才考第一次那你叫這些高階的公務人員現在再回頭去考那個證照那個證照要8月以後才考"},{"start":424.724,"end":441.491,"text":"那對他們來講情何以堪其實植物防檢員的工作辛勞的程度不會輸給動物防檢員部長您同意我的看法嗎我非常同意所以這也是為什麼我們在過去一年一直在爭取幫植物領域的部分能夠也爭取到表實的部分"},{"start":442.091,"end":466.704,"text":"那現在我們還是會積極爭取那我們現在目前是不希望用等到植物診療室的考試才能夠取得我們用另外一個方式就是不需要任何考試因為領表實的專業家居不一定要考試在不同單位是這樣子部長如果我的資料沒錯的話啦你們現在如果能夠領到表實的人員大概只有169個對不對你的總體影響總體支出只會增加429萬嘛"},{"start":470.366,"end":497.789,"text":"對 人數並不多啦人數不多但是這個對於大家的內心感受對於我們的公務人員的內心感受其實是差距極大的喔所以我想如果今天行政院或者是人事總署有聽到這一段的話我認為人事總署真的應該好好的去思考一下或者我其實會覺得改天要邀一下人事行政總署跟著我們的植物房檢員到田間去走一趟他就會知道有多辛苦在這樣的太陽底下"},{"start":498.63,"end":513.509,"text":"三四十度的太陽底下到植物到田間裡頭去走訪喔你就會知道這個有多辛苦喔所以部長這個我們我想我們還是要一起來共同努力啦好不好那另外最後一點齁那個主席對不起我再一分鐘就好了齁"},{"start":515.697,"end":544.329,"text":"真的氣候異常造成的這個稻作減產剛剛您在講到現在稻作的減產如果到全部收割完之後發現他的產量是減少20%的話你們就會有這個收入保險就會去理賠部長我現在跟你討論的就是收入保險的理賠金額的部分如果按照我們現有的辦法一般的天然災害的救助稻米的這個補助標準是一公頃1.8萬一分地大概只有"},{"start":545.305,"end":559.222,"text":"我們已經提高到兩萬了我知道 你現在的收入保險是提高到兩萬但是你要知道 現在他們的成本你賺到我的成本差不多就是要一公項差不多就是要五萬到六萬啦12萬喔好"},{"start":562.425,"end":582.99,"text":"你只賠2萬這個落差太大了啦那對於很多的農民來講當然他不希望靠你的保險理賠嘛他希望的是他的稻米能夠有好的收入但是在這樣的氣候變遷的狀態之下其實有沒有考慮我們的這個收入保險的理賠金額能夠適度的調漲"},{"start":586.428,"end":612.576,"text":"跟委員報告第一個就是我們的收入保險是從天然災害保險轉過來的所以現在都調高兩萬而且我們會滾動的檢討你是調高到兩萬不是調高兩萬調高到兩萬從一萬八調高到兩萬只有增加兩千塊然後現在我們會定期的滾動的檢討特別是我已經跟同仁講我們至少在年度的時候會針對上一年度的成本有一些調高的時候我們會"},{"start":613.536,"end":633.367,"text":"比照的去做一個調整所以部長這一題我就跟你提出來了嘛這一題我覺得應該放到你們滾動檢討的一個重要的項目之一啦那很顯然的現在在高雄地區的稻米收入其實是銳減的大寮就不用講了大寮那個收入大概最少都超過六成以上"},{"start":634.167,"end":663.627,"text":"美農最近開始準備要收割了發現它的它的空爆彈的情況不會比大寮還輕喔所以未來在這一個多月內如果全部收割完成你們的計算基準出來之後我相信我期待這個理賠的速度是要加快第二就是我現在跟您提出來的滾動式檢討未來的理賠金額是不是能夠滾動的增加在明年開始或者是下半年開始我覺得這個可能要把農"},{"start":665.007,"end":685.779,"text":"請農業部把他列為一個非常重要的一個會的我想我們已經有一個固定的那個滾動機制大概兩期做完了以後我們就會檢討然後第二個部分就是有關於這個保險的理賠他會比天然災害快因為天然災害每一塊地都去看那保險的都不用所以我剛才說的我們會等憑個資料一出來以後我們馬上計算"},{"start":686.499,"end":703.373,"text":"那你的理賠其實還有另外一個是加強型的農民他必須付少許的金額那我覺得加強型的這一塊可能要加強去宣導啦很多農民不知道有加強型的這個保險所以加強型這一塊我覺得應該要加強去宣導好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":195,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時40分）謝謝主席。主席，我待會可以暢所欲言嗎？"],["主席：可以。"],["邱委員議瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：沒問題。"],["邱委員議瑩：接下來請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長早。我想先在詢問預算解凍之前，還是先請教一個時事題。端午節馬上就到了，現在的豬價應該已經是這三年來同期最高，我昨天看到農業部有一個措施。"],["陳部長駿季：對，對外說明。"],["邱委員議瑩：我是不是給部長一點時間說明一下？因為現在豬價這麼高，一般消費群眾也是會哀哀叫，到底是什麼樣的原因，造成豬的價格這麼高？真的是產量減少嗎？針對產量減少的部分，農業部有什麼調配措施？"],["陳部長駿季：第一個、目前合理的價格大概在95塊上下，過去這一個禮拜最主要是因為端午節備料的關係，所以……"],["邱委員議瑩：所以大家就先去搶買。"],["陳部長駿季：我們從明天開始會開始增供、增加一成的豬量，可望讓豬價短時間不會超過100塊。第二個、非常重要的是，因為之前在做豬舍改建，相對的，豬隻本身的產量有減少，現在這些改建的部分慢慢、陸陸續續已經完成，特別是像台糖等的改建完成了，所以整個豬隻的飼養會回到比較正常的水準，後續……"],["邱委員議瑩：我請教兩個數字，一個就是您剛剛講從明天開始會增量，大概會增加多少豬肉量？"],["陳部長駿季：大概每天2.3萬頭，比過往的2萬、2.1萬增加了一成。"],["邱委員議瑩：每天會增加2.3萬頭？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，整個供應量是2點……"],["邱委員議瑩：所以就每天大概增加2,000頭的量就對了？"],["陳部長駿季：對，差不多2,000頭的量。"],["邱委員議瑩：是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：你說因為養豬場陸續建置好，所以養豬的產量會增加，是這樣嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，慢慢的會回到供量。"],["邱委員議瑩：慢慢的會增加，所以您預期到什麼時候豬肉的價格……當然端午節這一波因為用量大，所以它的價格應該也會漲上去，您預期什麼時候豬價會回到比較平穩的狀態？"],["陳部長駿季：我相信大概在7月以後，豬價到中元之間應該會在九十幾塊，不會像現在。"],["邱委員議瑩：農業部應該會長期密切監控這個東西嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會持續關切。"],["邱委員議瑩：接下來請教關稅的問題，很多農民或者現在有很多假新聞開始在講，未來農業防線到底守不守得住，如果全部的關稅是零，對於臺灣的農業衝擊如何？但是我不知道，或者我其實並沒有很清楚地聽到農業部對於關稅如果是零，或者是你們現在開始講我們是從零開始談，目前有很多的項目，包括臺灣輸到美國，或者是美國輸到臺灣，大概都有六成左右的產品其實是零關稅，如果現在很多人把它造謠說全部都是零，美國以後進來的東西全部都是零關稅的話，對臺灣整體農業的衝擊，部長，在這裡你用1分鐘的時間回答不了我這麼重大的議題，但是我認為農業部應該好好地應對、要好好地對農民及國人說明臺灣整體農業政策在面對臺美關稅議題的時候，我們應該怎麼樣因應、怎麼樣面對？對於臺灣自體的農產品、對農民的保護，你們應該有什麼樣的對策？這些東西、這些說帖是不是能夠請農業部在很短的時間之內，不管是用下鄉也好，不管是透過農會、透過產銷班、透過各地方縣市政府，我覺得應該都要讓農民很清楚地知道，政府在對於農業的保護政策上面會做的事情、應該做的事情，還有要立即去做的事情有哪些，這些能不能在很短的時間內去做到？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的提醒，相關的資料我們都已經有準備了，我們現在就會立即用圖卡的方式下鄉去讓委員說明，但是我這邊要強調一件事情，以農業部的立場，以我現在知道我們現在對美談判的部分，像最近有說米會降到百分之零，絕對不會，我覺得用賴總統以零開始的模式變成一個錯誤的訊息，說稻米會降到零關稅，這個不會發生，到目前為止，我們為了確保糧食安全，對於稻米，我們會一直捍衛著它現在的制度。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，對於臺灣來講，我覺得有一些是屬於戰略安全糧食考量的部分，我認為農業部應該要提出更多、更強而有力的數據跟對外的說明，這一塊可能要再多做一點。這一題我特別藉由今天質詢的機會提出來，農業部現在大概因為組織改造，有很多的組織其實是做了一些調整，但是我們的植物防檢員跟動物防檢員，不要說同工不同酬，同職等不同加給、不同酬的這件事情上面，部長，我知道你有曾經努力過，但是我不曉得為什麼人事行政總處對於植物防檢員的認知這麼低，造成很多植物防檢員的工作不受到尊重，同樣是做防檢員，為什麼做動物的加給就可以比較高？他的加給是表10嘛！植物的是表2、是比較低的嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：我們去問過了，我相信你也知道，人事行政總處說叫這些植物防檢員要去取得植物診療師的資格，他才能比照表10的加給，我們去年才通過植物診療師法，今年8月才要考第一次，你叫這些高階的公務人員現在再回頭去考證照，那個證照要8月以後才考，對他們來講情何以堪？其實植物防檢員工作辛勞的程度不會輸給動物防檢員，部長，您同意我的看法嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我非常同意，這也是為什麼我們在過去一年一直在幫植物領域的部分能夠爭取到表10的部分，現在我們還是會積極爭取，目前是不希望用植物診療師的考試才能夠取得，而是用另外一個方式，就是不需要任何考試，因為表10的專業加給不一定要有考試，在不同單位是這樣子，我們用其他的方式……"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，如果我的資料沒錯的話，你們現在能夠領到表10的人員大概只有169個，對不對？你的總體影響、總體支出只會增加429萬嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對，人數並不多啦！那是對同仁的鼓勵。"],["邱委員議瑩：人數不多，但是這個對於公務人員的內心感受，其實是差距極大的。"],["陳部長駿季：是！"],["邱委員議瑩：所以我想，如果今天行政院或者是人事總處有聽到這一段的話，我認為人事總處真的應該好好地去思考一下，或者我會覺得改天要邀一下人事行政總處跟著植物防檢員到田間走一趟，他就會知道有多辛苦，在30、40度的太陽底下到植物、到田間去走訪，就會知道這個有多辛苦。所以部長，我們還是要一起共同努力，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的支持。"],["邱委員議瑩：主席，對不起！我再1分鐘就好了。最後一點，針對氣候異常造成的稻作減產，剛剛您講到現在稻作減產，如果到全部收割完之後，發現其產量是減少20%，你們的收入保險就會去理賠，部長，我現在要跟你討論的就是收入保險理賠金額的部分，如果按照我們現有的辦法，一般天然災害救助稻米的補助標準是1公頃1.8萬，1分地大概1,800。"],["陳部長駿季：我們已經提高到2萬。"],["邱委員議瑩：我知道，你現在的收入保險是提高到2萬，但是你要知道他們現在種稻子的成本，1公頃差不多要5萬到12萬，但你僅賠2萬，這個落差太大了！對於很多的農民來講，當然他不希望靠你的保險理賠，他希望的是稻米能夠有好的收入，但是在這樣氣候變遷的狀態之下，有沒有考慮我們的收入保險理賠金額能夠適度地調漲？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，第一個，我們的收入保險是從天然災害保險轉過來的，現在都調高2萬，而且我們會滾動地檢討。"],["邱委員議瑩：不是，你是調高到2萬，不是調高2萬。"],["陳部長駿季：調高到2萬，然後這個部分……"],["邱委員議瑩：從1萬8,000調高到2萬，只有增加2,000塊而已。"],["陳部長駿季：現在我們會定期滾動地檢討，特別是我已經跟同仁講，至少在每年度針對上一年度的成本有調高的時候，我們會比照去做一個調整。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以部長，我就跟你提出來了，這一題我覺得應該放到你們滾動檢討的重要項目之一。"],["陳部長駿季：對，會。"],["邱委員議瑩：很顯然的，現在在高雄地區的稻米收入其實是銳減的，大寮就不用講了，大寮的收入最少大概都超過六成以上，美濃最近開始準備要收割了，發現稻米空包彈的情況不會比大寮還輕，未來在這一個多月內，如果全部收割完成，你們在計算基準出來之後，我期待理賠的速度要加快。第二，我現在跟您提出來的滾動式檢討未來的理賠金額，從明年開始或者是下半年開始是不是能夠滾動地增加，我覺得可能要請農業部把它列為非常重要的政策之一。"],["陳部長駿季：會的！我們已經有一個固定的滾動機制，大概兩期種完以後，我們就會檢討。第二個部分，有關於保險理賠會比天然災害還快，因為天然災害每一塊地都要去看，保險的則不用。"],["邱委員議瑩：我知道，對！"],["陳部長駿季：所以我剛才說我們會等平割資料一出來以後，我們會馬上計算。"],["邱委員議瑩：但你的理賠其實還有另外一個是加強型的，就是農民必須付少許的金額。"],["陳部長駿季：是的。"],["邱委員議瑩：我覺得加強型的這一塊可能要加強宣導，很多農民不知道有加強型的保險。"],["陳部長駿季：對，我瞭解，好。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以加強型這一塊，我覺得應該要加強去宣導，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱議瑩委員。","下一位請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-13","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","郭昱晴","陳冠廷","張雅琳","呂玉玲"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等 30案；二、處理或\n審查114年度中央政府總預算有關公平交易委員會主管預算凍結案等8案","agenda_id":"1145101_00004"}}},{"id":"161528","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161528","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f0c9b44e7c18be6aba98327315c1c974558b7b28ebcc841bb42170676383b250765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:38:25 - 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是他們 而不是我們"},{"start":530.134,"end":544.168,"text":"我希望我們剛剛所講的一定要強烈的表達這是你們外交部的指令裡面強烈的表達我們不願意接受他們這樣子幫我們降級好不好是 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謝謝主席 我們請法務部副局長麻煩法務部然後這個中選會的代表跟數位部的代表 謝謝中選會 好 數法部委員長好還有調查局 對好 麻煩副局長"},{"start":40.88,"end":63.435,"text":"我先請教調查局的這個副局長先請教你的原因是因為你們的報告寫得最好這個把所謂的簡訊的分類寫得非常清楚簡訊的來源不是只有我們有手機號碼會收到各式各樣我們用網路購物獲到了也會收到簡訊各式各樣的這個分類"},{"start":66.212,"end":95.328,"text":"那我先想要請教一下就是說這一個發送簡訊啊發送簡訊的人有問題還是提供提供這個這個電話給發送簡訊的單位如果違反各執法是哪一個哪一個有問題報言這個可能要看事實的個案來做認定好我現在假設假設今天召委排了這個題目啊就是說有人收到了"},{"start":97.372,"end":124.498,"text":"這個簡訊那請他來參與連署嘛假設是這樣那請他參與連署那一定是一定是這個電信公司收到有人給了他一個名冊或者叫電話然後就丟給了這個電信公司付了錢給電信公司那電信公司就傳給了這個不管是手機收到簡訊的人那如果違反個資法那發送訊號發送訊息的這個電信公司有沒有事"},{"start":125.953,"end":150.634,"text":"那可能因為如果所有行為的分擔有翻譯的聯絡可能有共犯的問題但是像您講的這個狀況我們不知道他彼此之間聯繫的這個狀況所以還是要看個案的實際就是說我現在假設我有一千個電話號碼我就交給了假設叫中華電信我有一千個電話號碼我交給了中華電信請他幫我傳這些文字那中華電信有沒有事"},{"start":151.846,"end":178.618,"text":"中央電信他如果只是接受委託的話他可能在看起來是沒有犯罪的這個意圖也沒有跟他做一個犯罪行為分擔的這個狀況的話那從您講的這樣的表象看起來可能不會有犯罪的問題但是個案還是我們會如果有個案的犯罪我們還是提報到基金署好 這個我了解了第二個請這個法務部部長"},{"start":180.899,"end":205.414,"text":"我們在選舉前 或者是在罷免前我們都會收到 請踴躍投票會吧 應該會吧 請踴躍投票就是不管是誰傳來的 請踴躍投票那如果有人收到 請不要去投票如果有人收到 請去連署有人收到 請不要去連署"},{"start":206.77,"end":231.76,"text":"這四種嘛 只有我收到訊息 請去投票 請不要去投票 請參與連署 請不要參與連署這四件事情 如果按照這個各執法是損害個人 他人個人的利益的時候這四種文字 哪一種會損害到個人的利益"},{"start":233.741,"end":258.364,"text":"最主要是因為他有那個電話電話的通訊的一個一個號碼所以他那個簡訊才會發到這些這些民眾的手裡對那所以這個是這怎麼那個那個個人資料是怎麼來的這個可能還要再去做一個了解但是我想這個應該是屬於各自法的問題這個收集處理利用這是一個怎麼是收集的"},{"start":258.724,"end":279.88,"text":"怎麼去處理對 我知道 這收集來處理嘛處理完之後我傳一個訊息給你嘛那是我個人認為我的利益受損我就可以去告發還是怎麼樣他那個如果說當然如果說用戶來講他認為有受損他認為有合乎各支法的那個41條或等其他的相關的規定的話"},{"start":281.201,"end":307.894,"text":"那當然可以去檢舉或者去做一個告發那這樣檢察官當然一辦案的就會依法來處理看來調查看會不會成立這個請中選會我剛剛提的那四個投票前有人通知你說請永樂投票或者是說這個反罷免的一方啊他說這個反正你們投票也不會超過25%啦請不要投票"},{"start":309.636,"end":333.428,"text":"或者現在還有在連署的請踴躍連署或者發一個訊息說請不要去連署這個中選會這四個你們管不管有沒有哪一個妨礙選舉包委員如果說是支持或反對罷免活動的話那我想這個都是罷免宣傳的一種態樣那除非說他那選舉呢"},{"start":334.902,"end":359.771,"text":"選舉也是一樣請不要投票這個我想這個請這個都是一種宣傳的一種行為都可以嗎像以前這個公投的時候啊就有人就什麼貼一個貼紙說請不要投就請不要投好所以這個對於這個訊息的內容基本上中選會不管我講了這四種你們不管"},{"start":360.964,"end":375.629,"text":"如果是宣傳的行為的話 支持或是不支持我想這個都是宣傳行為的一種好所以這個宣傳說請不要投票請去投票請參加罷免請不要罷免對中選會來說這四個都沒有問題如果是單純的宣傳行為應該是沒有違法"},{"start":380.717,"end":384.638,"text":"除非有人非法利用他人的資料來傳送那非法就請教部長我最近收到叫我去驗車的通知"},{"start":403.012,"end":414.517,"text":"我當時去驗車的時候我留下資料的時候他也沒有說什麼五年後會聯絡我啊現在聯絡我的是好幾年前我去驗車的一個民間的代檢場啊他怎麼可以傳簡訊給我"},{"start":420.51,"end":441.686,"text":"可能就是那個代監場有那個客戶的一些的資料這是如何去蒐集當然我們這個就可以啦這個是在我們各執法裡面的規定像那個28條跟29條它裡面公務機關這個是應該是屬於29規公務機關違反本法規定自個人資料遭受不法蒐集處理利用其他"},{"start":442.446,"end":464.64,"text":"侵害當事人權利這個要負損害賠償責任但若證明無故意或過失不再直線所以這個有沒有這個還要做個案的做一個認定做一個認定那事實上整個一個太樣很多那這個是因為各自法的主管機關在一個解釋如何非法好 說起處理用這個要個人資料保護"},{"start":466.468,"end":472.411,"text":"籌備處好那我們就有沒有代表來這個數位部的代表籌備處來請問一下不好意思請問一下我們現在去餐廳訂位子打電話去今天晚上八點王先生試會對方問我說請問手機號碼我就留給他了他只有問這樣我就會留給他大部分都這樣"},{"start":496.938,"end":498.81,"text":"過了一個月以後他傳了一個簡訊給我"},{"start":501.614,"end":528.916,"text":"說 欸 歡迎你再來吃啦 我們最近打五折我沒有答應他再傳給我啊這樣有沒有違反個資法是 因為一開始如果說是在定位的時候他可能會是有一個契約或類似契約的關係那這個時候依照個資法的規定他是可以蒐集必要的個人資料例如手機號碼但是 之後他如果要做行銷之用的話其實還是需要經過當事人的同意才能夠做這個行銷你在說什麼 這條就嚴重了"},{"start":531.394,"end":533.497,"text":"這條這麼嚴重你今天講完之後這事情還蠻嚴重的我們打電話去餐廳他都問我電話號碼嘛這合理嘛我們好像覺得很合理啦因為我剛剛講說我不要給你電話"},{"start":544.568,"end":573.315,"text":"他說那我沒辦法讓你定位喔那我就留電話給你了那留了電話給你之後他也許時間到了我遲到5分鐘他會轉簡訊給我說你遲到你到底有沒有要來對不對過了一個月之後他給我行銷了嘛他給我行銷那給我行銷這個動作在你們現在的認定裡頭他也沒有徵得我同意嘛他就是在電話中我也沒有看那個熱熱等的文字嘛我們有時候去簽一大堆他叫我看一堆文字然後說什麼保護啊這樣"},{"start":574.375,"end":582.359,"text":"那現在他如果這種情形 他又傳給了消費者有人去檢舉說 我上次去吃完之後 他又傳簡訊給我 你們要怎麼處理"},{"start":584.718,"end":613.522,"text":"就依照目前以往不管是在法務部或是國發會或是我們現在籌備處的韓式的見解就是說當你在做行銷的時候因為它跟一開始它是接受定位的這樣的一個目的是有一點不太一樣的那因為它是不同的目的所以它其實是需要額外在經過當事人的同意說我願意讓你用我的電話號碼做行銷那如果說沒有這樣的一個同意的話基本上確實可能會有違反各自法的這個疑慮"},{"start":614.022,"end":621.436,"text":"唉唷,那這個事情就麻煩了,這個再請法務部或司法院,大家開一下會,因為這個會很普遍。"},{"start":622.575,"end":648.681,"text":"會很普遍啦 我們一般消費者就留電話給人家嘛那留了之後以後又收到如果我不開心了我可不可以去告發他說你又沒有徵得我同意你怎麼老是傳簡訊給我好 最後一個我們參加活動 愛情部長我們參加活動會留下很多的資料參加社團 坐遊覽車 保險 旅遊都會留下蠻多跟個人資訊有關的這個訊息啦"},{"start":651.277,"end":670.228,"text":"那如果這一個剛剛講這個電信公司收到了一組電話號碼假設一千個電話號碼然後他就幫我傳了一個訊息可是這一千組的電話號碼我交給電信公司的時候就是這個委託人交給電信公司的時候其實他也不知道那一千組哪裡來的"},{"start":672.025,"end":688.555,"text":"因為一千組可能是攬攬攬攬攬一通就對了本來這個社團已經二十年了這個社團都有這些社員的名冊或各式各樣的社團的名冊那這個已經攬攬攬攬攬了很久之後大家也都一直傳一傳就沒有事啊結果呢"},{"start":691.676,"end":707.573,"text":"這是有人告發 假設啦 假設他不知道為什麼 目的他告發說 欸 你怎麼有我的電話碼 你怎麼傳簡訊給我未必是跟政治有關啦 就是一般的這樣子那如果有人去告發了 那回頭去找這個提供電話的人啦"},{"start":708.554,"end":712.799,"text":"啊你如果有這個電話,你如果拿到中華電信給你傳訊,這個電話對對來這個承辦人可能說,這個電話我們社團已經二三十年了,就都這個電話啊結果這個提供的人,現在也許會出事嘛對不對"},{"start":724.011,"end":742.321,"text":"這部分事實上因為提供說不定可能就是一個收集保有這些個人資料的最原始的那個或者是輾轉來的那剛才11條的話是個人資料的收集的特定目的消失所以本來譬如說我們為了旅行做一個名冊裡面有一些聯絡資料"},{"start":743.547,"end":771.285,"text":"那如果說這個特定的目的當是為了旅遊或者某一個特定目的或者期限屆滿這個屆滿的時候那個當然收集處理的那一位當然就要依主動或依當事人之請求刪除停止處理或利用個人資料但是如果執行職或業務所必須或經當事人署名同意那不再執行所以這個還是要看那個要看個案"},{"start":772.345,"end":787.751,"text":"個案來處理有沒有同意或者有沒有那個個案的情形這個有一條界線啦你想說我常常收到我以前是台中嘛收到台中很多的市議員叫我沒感動的還有以前的議長祝我生日快樂我當然可能有留電話給他我名片有留電話給他可是我現在叫他不好啊我現在跟他不好了"},{"start":797.932,"end":826.131,"text":"那他傳給我生日快樂我覺得你怎麼會有我的電話號碼他那個事實上據各自法也不是都是因為他第一條裡面就有規定這個因為他是做一個平衡他自己是為了規範個人資料的蒐集處理利用以避免人格而前受到侵害並促進個人資料的合理使用還有那個合理使用所以如果有些資料說祝你生日快樂我是認為是沒有"},{"start":829.533,"end":842.962,"text":"電話號碼是一個經營社會生活必要的工具就像我們這個連,這個都是屬於個人的所以這都是屬於個人資料的有些的一個範圍我舉這個例子只是說因為我們到處都會留下我們的電話號碼"},{"start":852.288,"end":875.348,"text":"我們也常常收到簡訊我們也不知道那個簡訊是我在哪裡留下電話號碼而收到的簡訊所以個人的利益受損或者是他不當的利用這些資料的這一條界線可能也要有一個清楚讓民眾知道像剛剛提到說我去餐廳訂餐廳這間餐廳兩三個月架一個行銷方案給我"},{"start":880.748,"end":896.216,"text":"中間那條線搞不好有跨過去因為他也沒有我書面同意諸如此類的事情我覺得這個可能相關的單位找個機會給民眾一個共同的答案讓大家包括商家也可以有一個依詢以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":417,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（9時29分）謝謝主席，我們請法務部。"],["主席：麻煩法務部。"],["王委員義川：然後中選會的代表跟數發部的代表，謝謝。"],["主席：中選會、數發部。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["王委員義川：還有調查局。"],["主席：好，麻煩副局長。"],["王委員義川：我先請教調查局副局長，先請教你的原因是因為你們的報告寫得最好，把所謂的簡訊分類寫得非常清楚，簡訊的來源不是只有我們有手機號碼會收到，我們用網路購物，貨到了也會收到簡訊，有各式各樣的分類。我想要先請教一下，到底是發送簡訊的人，還是提供這個電話給發送簡訊的單位有問題？如果違反個資法，是哪一個有問題？"],["吳副局長以公：報告委員，這可能要看事實個案來做認定。"],["王委員義川：好，我現在假設今天召委排了這個題目，有人收到簡訊，請他來參與連署，假設是這樣，一定是電信公司收到有人給了它一個名冊或者是電話，然後就丟給了電信公司，也付了錢給電信公司，電信公司就傳給了用手機收到簡訊的人，如果違反個資法，發送訊號、發送訊息的這個電信公司有沒有事？"],["吳副局長以公：可能，因為如果有行為的分擔、有犯意的聯絡，可能有共犯的問題，但是像您講的這個狀況，我們不知道他們彼此之間聯繫的狀況，所以還是要看個案的實際狀況。"],["王委員義川：好，現在假設我有1,000個電話號碼，我就交給了假設是中華電信，我把1,000個電話號碼交給了中華電信，請它幫我傳這些文字，那中華電信有沒有事？"],["吳副局長以公：中華電信如果只是接受委託的話，它可能看起來沒有犯罪的意圖，也沒有跟它做犯罪行為分擔的狀況的話，從您所講這樣的表象看起來，可能不會有犯罪的問題，但是針對個案，如果有個案的犯罪，我們還是提報到地檢署，由檢察官來做認定。"],["王委員義川：好，這個我了解了。第二個，請教法務部部長，我們在選舉前或者是在罷免前都會收到「請踴躍投票」，應該會吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個會。"],["王委員義川：不管是誰傳來的，就是「請踴躍投票」，如果有人收到「請不要去投票」，有人收到「請去連署」，有人收到「請不要去連署」這4種，就是收到的訊息包括「請去投票」、「請不要去投票」、「請參與連署」、「請不要參與連署」這4件事情，如果按照個資法是損害他人之利益時，這4種文字哪一種會損害到個人的利益？"],["鄭部長銘謙：最主要是因為它有電話通訊的號碼，所以那個簡訊才會發到這些民眾的手裡。"],["王委員義川：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以個人資料是怎麼來的，可能還要再去做了解，但是我想這應該是屬於個資法的問題，蒐集、處理、利用，就是怎麼蒐集的？怎麼去處理？"],["王委員義川：對，我知道，就是蒐集來處理，處理完之後，我傳一個訊息給你。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["王委員義川：那是我個人認為我的利益受損就可以去告發，還是怎麼樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：當然如果就用戶來講，他認為有受損，他認為有合乎個資法第四十一條或其他相關規定的話，當然可以去檢舉或者去做告發，檢察官辦案就會依法來處理，來調查看會不會成立。"],["王委員義川：好，請中選會，我剛剛提的那4個投票前，有人通知你說「請踴躍投票」；或者是反罷免的一方說，反正你們投票不會超過25%，「請不要投票」；或者現在還有在連署的「請踴躍連署」；或者發一個訊息說「請不要去連署」，請問中選會，這4個你們管不管？有沒有哪一個妨礙選舉？"],["蔡處長金誥：報告委員，如果是支持或反對罷免行動的話，我想這個都是罷免宣傳的一種態樣。除非說……"],["王委員義川：那選舉呢？"],["蔡處長金誥：選舉也是一樣。"],["王委員義川：如果有人說「請不要投票」呢？"],["蔡處長金誥：我想這個都是一種宣傳的行為。"],["王委員義川：所以都可以嘛！像以前公投的時候，就有人貼一個貼紙說「請不要投」，所以對於訊息的內容，基本上中選會不管？我講的這四種你們不管？"],["蔡處長金誥：如果是宣傳行為的話，不管支持或是不支持，我想這個都是宣傳行為的一種。"],["王委員義川：好，所以這個宣傳說請不要投票、請去投票、請參加罷免、請不要罷免，對中選會來說，這四個都沒有問題？"],["蔡處長金誥：如果是單純的宣傳行為，應該是沒有違法。"],["王委員義川：那還有什麼不是單純的宣傳行為？我就接到這種簡訊啊！"],["蔡處長金誥：剛剛部長有提到，除非有人非法利用他人的資料來傳……"],["王委員義川：好，非法的部分就來請教部長了，我最近收到叫我去驗車的通知，我當時去驗車留下資料的時候，對方也沒有說五年後會聯絡我啊！現在聯絡我的是好幾年前我去驗車的民間代檢廠，他怎麼可以傳簡訊給我？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可能是代檢廠有客戶的一些資料，這次如果去蒐集，當然我們……"],["王委員義川：這個就可以是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是個資法裡面的規定，像第二十八條及第二十九條……這應該是屬於第二十九條的規定：非公務機關違反本法規定，致個人資料遭不法蒐集、處理、利用或其他侵害當事人權利者，負損害賠償責任。但能證明其無故意或過失者，不在此限。所以這有沒有觸犯規定還要針對個案認定，事實上態樣很多，關於個資法的主管機關如何解釋非法蒐集、處理、利用，這要由個人資料保護籌備處……"],["王委員義川：今天有沒有代表來？數位部的代表……"],["鄭部長銘謙：請籌備處的代表來說明。"],["王委員義川：請問一下，我們現在要去餐廳訂位子，打電話過去說：今天晚上八點，王先生四位。對方問我手機號碼，我就留給他了，他只有問這樣，然後我就留給他，大部分都是這樣。過了一個月以後，他傳了一個簡訊給我說，歡迎你再來吃，我們最近打五折。其實我並沒有答應他再傳簡訊給我啊！請問這樣有沒有違反個資法？"],["林組長裕嘉：因為一開始在訂位的時候，可能會有契約或類似契約的關係，依照個資法規定，這時候他是可以蒐集必要的個人資料，例如手機號碼，但是之後他如果要做行銷之用的話，其實還是需要經過當事人的同意才能夠做行銷。"],["王委員義川：你這樣說，這件事情就嚴重了！你今天講完之後，這事情還蠻嚴重的。我們打電話去餐廳，對方都會問電話號碼，我們好像覺得這樣很合理，如果我跟他說我不要給你電話，他就會說：那我沒辦法讓你訂位。所以我就留電話給他，留電話給他之後，也許時間到了，我遲到五分鐘，他會傳簡訊跟我說：你遲到了，你到底有沒有要來，對不對？"],["林組長裕嘉：對。"],["王委員義川：過了一個月之後，他給我行銷了，就行銷這個動作而言，在你們現在的認定當中，他也沒有徵得我同意，他就是在電話中傳簡訊，我也沒有看那些「落落長」的文字，我們有時候要簽一大堆，他叫我看一堆文字，然後說是根據什麼保護法之類的。像這種情形，他又傳給了消費者，有人去檢舉說我上次去吃完之後，他又傳簡訊給我，你們怎麼處理？"],["林組長裕嘉：不管是在法務部、國發會或是現在籌備處函釋的見解，當他在做行銷的時候，因為跟一開始他接受訂位這樣的目的是有一點不太一樣的，因為是不同的目的，所以其實需要額外再經過當事人的同意，說我願意讓你用我的電話號碼做行銷，如果沒有這樣的同意的話，基本上確實可能會有違反個資法的疑慮。"],["王委員義川：唉喲！那這個事情就麻煩了。再請法務部或司法院開一下會，因為這很普遍，一般消費者就留電話給人家，留了之後又收到簡訊，如果我不開心了，我可不可以去告發他，說他又沒有徵得我同意，他怎麼老是傳簡訊給我？","接下來請部長，我們參加活動會留下很多資料，參加社團、坐遊覽車、保險、旅遊，都會留下許多跟個人資訊有關的訊息。剛剛講假設電信公司收到一千個電話號碼，然後他就幫我傳了一個訊息，其實委託人交給電信公司的時候，他也不知道那一千組哪裡來的，那一千組可能是混雜在一起的，反正社團已經成立二十年了，社團都有社員的名冊或各式各樣的社團名冊，已經混在一起很久之後，大家也都一直傳都沒事啊！假設這次有人因為某種目的而去告發說，你怎麼有我的電話號碼？你怎麼傳簡訊給我？未必是跟政治有關，就是一般的情況，如果有人去告發，回頭去找提供電話的人說，你怎麼有這些電話？你怎麼拿給中華電信叫他幫你傳訊息？這些電話從哪裡來的？承辦人說我們社團二、三十年來都是用這些電話啊！在這種情況下，這個提供的人現在也許會出事，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：針對這部分，因為提供的人說不定就是蒐集保有這些個人資料的最原始者，或者是輾轉來的，依照第十一條的規定，當個人資料蒐集的特定目的消失，譬如為了旅行做一個名冊，裡面有一些聯絡資料，如果當時是為了旅遊或為了某一個特定目的，當期限屆滿的時候，當然蒐集處理的人就會主動或依當事人之請求刪除、停止處理或利用個人資料，但如果是執行職務或業務所必須或經當事人書面同意者，不在此限。所以這還是要視個案來處理，看看有沒有獲得當事人同意或者……個案的情形都不一樣。"],["王委員義川：這個有一條界線啦！因為我以前在臺中，所以我也常常收到許多和我不同黨的臺中市議員或以前的議長祝我生日快樂的簡訊，我當時可能有留名片、有留電話給他，可是我現在跟他不好了，那他傳給我生日快樂的簡訊，我就覺得他怎麼會有我的電話號碼？這個要怎麼主張？"],["鄭部長銘謙：事實上個資法也不是都……其實第一條裡面就有規定，為規範個人資料之蒐集、處理及利用，以避免人格權受侵害，並促進個人資料之合理利用……這裡寫的是「合理使用」，所以如果有些資料是祝你生日快樂，我認為那並沒有……"],["王委員義川：OK。"],["鄭部長銘謙：有些電話號碼是經營社會生活必要的工具，就像我們的臉，這些都是屬於個人資料的範圍，包括名字或……"],["王委員義川：我舉這個例子只是……"],["鄭部長銘謙：合理的使用……"],["王委員義川：我舉這個例子只是因為我們到處都會留下我們的電話號碼，我們也常常收到簡訊，我們也不知道那個簡訊是我們在哪裡留下電話號碼而收到的簡訊，所以個人的利益受損或者是他不當利用這些資料的這一條界線，可能也要清楚讓民眾知道。像剛剛提到我去餐廳訂位時，留電話給這間餐廳，結果這間餐廳兩、三個月後寄一個行銷方案給我，中間那一條線搞不好有跨過去，因為他也沒有我的書面同意。諸如此類的事情，我覺得相關單位可能要找個機會給民眾一個共同的答案，讓商家和民眾都可以有一個依循。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","接下來請林倩綺委員代理主席。"],["主席（林委員倩綺代）：請吳委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：麻煩NCC、中華電信、個資保護委員會，還有部長及調查局副局長。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為剛剛聽王義川委員的問題，我覺得還蠻有興趣的，就是剛剛王義川委員有問部長，如果違法要求大家罷免或不罷免有沒有構成違法？其實這個有，這在選罷法第九十八條有，我來幫部長回復一下王委員。因為我剛聽王委員的問題，我一樣覺得有興趣，所以我想接著往下問幾個問題，就是剛剛所提到的，部長，需不需要先看一下第九十八條？我們時間可以先暫停，就是選罷法第九十八條。","時間先暫停，先讓他們看一下條文。","好了嗎？好，時間請繼續。"],["主席：請繼續。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝。我就順著王委員的問題，我們現在看第九十八條第一項第二款，如果今天是用一個非法的方式叫大家來罷免或不來罷免，其實是符合第九十八條第一項第二款，如果前面有違反個資蒐集到相關的資訊，再拿違反個資所取得的資訊來做後續傳播訊息等等的動作，其實是有問題的，跟部長報告一下，部長，你們應該要稍微了解嘛！","另外，調查局這個應該也可以列為選舉查察的核分，因為你們偽造文書都列為選舉查察積分在核分了，像這個完全就是違反選罷法第九十八條第一項第二款，更可以名正言順用選罷法的積分來核分，調查局副局長，你們有要處理這個嗎？有沒有？"],["吳副局長以公：報告委員，如果我們受理相關的告發案件，我們會蒐集相關資料提報給地檢署來成立偵辦。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我再談一下個資的部分，也先跟副局長說明，如果這段時間的個資利用上面是違法的話，你們千萬記得……我在這邊就直接跟你們說，你們就要開始下去調查，因為這跟全民有關。我也再跟兩位說明一下，最近有很多實務上面查到的詐欺集團，他就是利用這些簡訊所獲得的資訊，這些簡訊雖然是外面的簡訊代理商來幫忙發送訊息，但這些代理商所得到的門號，他可以從門號知道你去過哪些地點、使用的基地臺位置，這個在中華電信的廣告裡面也寫得很清楚，你去過哪一間實體的售車展覽場，之後他就會丟車輛的簡訊給你，這個中華電信的廣告都有。如果這樣的話，我自然就可以從這些簡訊發送的代理商那邊，從每個人的門號反推回這個人曾經到過哪裡、使用過哪幾個基地臺，這些請你們要注意一下，很多詐團現在開始用這些資料，臺灣詐欺很多，我們現在要幫國人守住這一塊，你們不能視而不見。","我這邊跟幾位說明一下，這個月初的新聞報導有關罷免連署的簡訊，「反共護台」聯盟的人指出，他們這些簡訊是透過代理商下單去購買的服務，他說代理商會跟三大業者合作，並以區域基地臺及當初申請門號的地點作為發送地點。所以依據那個報導，目前光新北市就有5個選區有，雙和、板橋、淡水、新店等等，像臺中也都有，所以以當初發送門號的地點，他也可以針對門號申請人的年齡、學歷、性別等等來取得這些發送的資料。我想請教一下，罷團取得這5個選區的行動電話門號，然後廣發簡訊鼓勵罷免的連署，為什麼罷團可以取得這些資料？","沒關係，我幫你們回答好了，就是因為罷團向這些業者下單嘛！對不對？因為業者手上有這些資料，所以罷團向他下單，但是我必須提一個點，最近很多科技執法的修法，你要知道門號跟使用者位址其實是符合通保法第三條之一的通信紀錄資料，也就是這些東西很多都是要檢察官聲請，法官核准才能調閱。如果中華電信今天什麼都不管，就全部丟出去給業者，這個也很奇怪。而且大法官釋字第689號也講得很清楚，即使一般人在公開場合的行為也有不受關注的權利，我們在公開場合還是有一些個人隱私得主張的權利，而不是中華電信可以把資料全部都給那些業者想怎麼用就怎麼用。","我想請問一下個資委員會，最近有民眾反映說他人搬到中壢了，結果他在中壢也有收到訊息，你們有沒有發覺這是怎麼回事？"],["林組長裕嘉：因為目前個資法還是一個分管的狀況，我們個資籌備處是沒有調查的權限，所以這個部分可能還是由各業別的目的事業主管機關在個案才有調查的權限。"],["吳委員宗憲：那你們就沒有在管這一塊嗎？"],["林組長裕嘉：對，應該是說目前我們如果有收到民眾……我們目前其實也沒有收到民眾對我們有任何的陳情。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，我跟你講，民眾還說會不會他連去汽車旅館資料全部都被你們掌握？他們現在擔心這個點，我可以去某一個汽車賣場，你就知道我去過，然後讓業者丟訊息，丟汽車的訊息給我。那我去了哪一間汽車旅館會不會你下次就丟它的折價券給我？就是那個民眾的質疑啦！"],["林組長裕嘉：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：另外，我上網看了一下簡訊的收費，大概就0.7元起跳到1.5元，所以我當然也會覺得這些罷團真的超有錢的，因為我拿到一個數據，就是內政部的公開數據，而且是112年11月電信信令人口統計，光是新聞報導的這幾個區加起來電信使用的人口有156萬3,184人，如果以最便宜的0.7塊來看好了，以0.7塊這個數字，如果他真的都發的話大概要一百零九萬多啦！當然我不知道他到底發了多少，我們也蠻希望這些罷團最後能夠公開這些經費的使用，因為我國目前在這一塊法律上面建構不夠完全，我們選舉，最後選舉經費要報到中選會，但是罷免卻不用，他們錢哪裡來？怎麼用？都沒有人管，所以好多個罷團現在內部都發生因為經費使用，有人私下去募款，有人錢不知道怎麼用，內部就鬧哄哄。上次謝國樑罷免案也是，罷免完之後到現在他們還在吵罷免經費的使用。這一塊內政部有提說要修法，但在修法之前，這次就天下大亂，因為錢不知道哪裡來，也不知道哪裡去，這也是我們質疑的一個點。甚至有更精確化的說訊息一則要一塊半，費用是非常驚人的，我也不認為資料可以讓大家這樣濫用一團對國家是好事。就像我剛剛說的，現在很多詐欺集團利用這些簡訊代發業者所取得的資料反推回大家的習慣。我講個很簡單的例子，立法院有我的門號，立法院在很多通訊錄上面也有把我的門號列出來，如果有人想要知道我的生活習慣，而他不是偵察單位、不是檢察機關，他就拿我的門號去跟這些業者反求門號的使用紀錄就好了，我到過哪裡、去過哪些賣場，我的整個脈絡就出來了，這是我質疑的點，而且這個點是不分藍綠都要注意的風險，國人也要注意的風險，因為詐欺集團他要怎麼樣騙到你的錢，如果你值得他騙的話，如果你夠有錢值得他騙的話，他就會花時間去分析你過往的紀錄，就像我們以前在做刑事案件偵查的時候，我會去分析被告的生活習慣，譬如他喜歡看不動產的資料，我就會一直丟類似這種東西給他、去跟他談。所以我們會分析對方的資料，然後去攻破他、去理解他到底在做什麼，我們不能讓這些個人的資料到最後變成是犯罪集團使用的工具，這是我很在乎的一點。","那中華電信我請教一下，你們在官網的行動寬頻服務契約書第三十七條寫到「非依法或經乙方事先同意……不得為蒐集目的以外之利用。」所以相關的資料紀錄經過你們處理，而且客觀上無法還原識別個人的可能時才能夠提供第三人使用。但是在這段時間有非常多的例子，大家都開始在那邊擔心說他經過很簡單的反求就可以查出個人的資料，就像健保資料庫的隱密性現在也被人家一直挑戰般，而你們對於個人資料的維護是遠低於健保資料庫。這個情況下，我想請問中華電信有什麼作法嗎？"],["林執行副總經理文智：跟委員報告，我想也順便跟大家說明，中華電信在個資的這些蒐集、利用、處理一定都是完全按照個資法去處理。在我們公司內部，從內部的檢視到內控、到內稽、到外部通過這些ISO的27001、27701、BS10012到我們通過國際標準29100-2，這個其實都要檢視，有重重的保護。"],["吳委員宗憲：你講這個有答跟沒有答一樣，我都依據個資法，經過什麼認證我都沒有問題。但我們看到的是結論，我跟你說明一下結論就是：今天很多人當初去申請門號的時候，甚至我門號是二十年前申請的，我沒有換過門號，那我二十年前申請，我當時也不可能去勾選這個個資使用的同意書啊！甚至我勾選時，使用同意書它的範圍也沒有包括到政治活動。但是最近，這是一個事實，就變成有一些政治活動會利用這些發送簡訊，或者是詐欺集團使用外面代理業者的資訊，這都已經是實務上的一個事實，然後你在那邊跟我說一切符合個資法，一切符合誰、誰、誰的認證，但我們看的是結論，我們要處理的是社會問題。"],["林執行副總經理文智：是，也跟委員報告，我為什麼先說明我們在這個部分一切有做這樣嚴謹的處理，另外，電信公司本身其實是一個傳輸網路的平臺，所以就現在報載的這個個案或剛剛委員提到的很多案例，其實是來自於發訊端的行為。我們在有關詐欺這個部分，在NCC的執法跟警政機關的合作，其實我們也做了很多的措施。"],["吳委員宗憲：好了，我懂了啦！發訊端的行為，那就是有講跟沒有講一樣，都是他們的錯，千錯萬錯都是他們的錯！雖然中華電信是公司，但是業者、企業有社會責任，每一個企業都有他的社會責任存在，那你有沒有做適當的行政調查，這就是一個很重要的點。"],["林執行副總經理文智：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：你放任說：你用我的東西我也不知道，反正是你犯罪，不是我。但是你可以做行政上的控管，因為現在詐欺已經是全民痛恨的東西了，不分你是什麼政治傾向、你什麼有的或沒有的，大家都不喜歡詐欺。但是我一直講，詐欺像你剛剛說的就交給警察、交給誰，其實這是不對的，所有正確的反詐處理是行政先行，司法在末端補位，你一定要從最前端的NCC、金管會等等，他去把詐騙的簡訊控管掉、把詐騙的廣告控管掉，減少了詐欺案件發生，最後才由司法機關去查。結果現在大家都倒置了，司法機關衝第一線，然後行政機關不管，就有排山倒海的詐騙廣告，我常常收到耶！我家人也常常收到！就表示控管出了問題。如果你認為這個是簡訊代送業者的責任，那我也不知道貴公司的企業社會責任哪裡去了！"],["林執行副總經理文智：謝謝委員的指導。事實上我們在社會責任……有關詐欺，我們不管是在簡訊……因為涉及到秘密通訊，所以我們這個部分也做了很多的處理，詐騙的簡訊有很多的態樣……"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，你自己看我現在這個PowerPoint上面的，你們蒐集了非常多資料，這是你們的廣告喔！不是我們列出來的。你告訴大家說，你可以去哪裡蒐集到誰去哪裡的資料之後，然後以行為分群丟給這些人，像這個人常跑健身房，你蒐集到他常跑健身房的資料，你就丟給他一些運動愛好的資訊，這個是企業資訊、商務上面的使用沒有錯，但是我跟你們說，這個會導致反求之後就知道你很多資訊、知道你去過哪裡，會有這個問題，而且在實務上面已經發生那麼多了。另外，我再跟你們提一下，最近簡訊代發業者在5月份時發了一些訊息給他們客戶，裡面就有提到說要開始去查來請求發送簡訊的這些人的資料等等，他們要求這些人提供，我的問題是5月他們發了這些資訊，然後有說到9月底之前，都會用勸導不開罰，請問這是不是NCC的意見？中華電信或NCC都可以回答，到9月是NCC的意見嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：沒有，跟委員報告，其實我們在要求電信業者法遵並沒有任何時間限制，都是……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，因為我看到9月，那你們是不是要幹嘛？要等到大罷免結束之後再來開始查嗎？現階段不用查？另外，發送簡訊在臺灣已經這麼多年了，但是NCC以及中華電信貴公司都沒有去做行政上面的調查，這是怎麼回事？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：報告委員，有，我們都有依據個資法第二十二條，還有電信管理法第九十條進行個資檢查，像這個個案，我們在5月5號、5月9號進行兩次行政檢查，對三家電信業者……"],["吳委員宗憲：這是你講的，結果現在這些簡訊代發業者在5月12號到處發訊息跟大家說，之後每一個委託發送簡訊的人，他們要提供相關的資料，過往都沒有耶！而且他說9月之後才會開罰，所以我不知道我們的行政機關到底在做什麼？真正該管的不管，造成國內詐騙這麼嚴重的事情，不管！詐騙廣告，不管！簡訊發送，不管！個資會被冒用也不管！什麼都不管，然後今天一個一個點出來。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，NCC對我們管的三大業者都是有作用法來規管它，他們跟上游端大盤商那邊是用契約來約定，但是他們也要求他們要做好KYC，這一塊應該是末端的代發業者的企客那部分對他們的一些要求。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你說，NCC算政府機關，是中立的，而中華電信是公司，我只是跟兩位說，我自己在實務上來看，你們在管理上出了很大的問題，不管你說是我講錯或是你們盡力了，但我們看到的是實務上有非常多的詐騙訊息，像我剛剛講的，我給你一個門號，我不用去做違法的調查，光是從這些代發業者所掌握的資訊，我就可以回過頭去反求出你們每個人過去去過哪裡、幹了什麼事情，你覺得這樣對嗎？從個資上面這樣OK嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：在NCC的職權範圍內，我們都有嚴格把關這一塊，末端的部分應該由對應的相關主管機關來處理，像資訊服務業或行銷公司這邊都不在NCC的職權範圍內。"],["吳委員宗憲：就這樣，最後我麻煩調查局還有法務部，針對我剛剛講的，麻煩你們去弄清楚有沒有違反選罷法第九十八條第一項第二款。我在這邊也再次跟各位說：第一個，簡訊使用有沒有問題？有沒有違反個資法？再來，麻煩全部都用選舉查察去核分，叫底下調查官好好處理。還有，有沒有違反第九十八條，你們自己可以看，清清楚楚在那邊，只要用違法方式做這些罷免鼓動或要求大家不罷免，這個都有違法，請你們能就這部分去查察，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。相關單位是不是針對吳委員剛才所提出來的具體內容，做一個書面的回應，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：謝謝委員。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：現在我們請莊瑞雄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","張啓楷","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","羅智強","王鴻薇","葉元之","林倩綺"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、內\n政部警政署署長、中央選舉委員會、數位發展部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有\n限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「民眾反應收到罷免連署簡訊，顯非商業廣告目的利用，質疑個資\n洩漏而侵害人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145202_00002"}}},{"id":"161526","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161526","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f0ac71cf9c5e6bf6db28de2cce2b28366a8b7b28ebcc841bb432e7a0c5883758305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:23:41 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那目前"},{"start":132.039,"end":141.103,"text":"爬出從本席做這個國會議員到現在爬出我們現在農產業至今的競爭力的問題是什麼四項第一個農業部資源都投注強調在補助跟補貼補助當然重要他重點是即時性的來保障我的農民但是對於我小農為主的我們的台灣我們我國的農業競爭力的提升是非常有限的第二個問題"},{"start":158.351,"end":174.946,"text":"在推動重點我們都是在農民的硬體建設但是在農業的共用基礎設施跟農業的軟實力成效是有限什麼叫做硬體設備我們有沒有補助農機設的改善 有我們要補助冷鏈 有沒有 有"},{"start":176.247,"end":191.04,"text":"我們這次有多了大量的經費補助溫室有沒有有這個都也該做但是我們現在應該要提升了就您這邊累積歷任的部長 委主委所現在你要做的是公共的基礎建設跟農業軟實力那這是你應該要做的"},{"start":193.462,"end":219.495,"text":"第三個問題 推動智慧農業我們都是在農業的智慧化也就是說這個成功的案產相對有限喔本席長期主張就是你農業決策你部長跟你所有的一級署管機關的農業決策的智慧化跟精準化有啦 你們有做啦 部本部裡面的行政流程公文啦 財務啦 這你們有做然後放豬 我最在意的就是龍魚"},{"start":222.097,"end":246.998,"text":"會 合作社他們的競銷存肥料等甚至會計喔有沒有有沒有整合這樣的雲端平台沒有 我倡議了好久你們也來跟我講了好幾次到現在你們的結論是什麼還是讓各農會去做我講的我不需要農會我講明了 我也要替農會講話你不可以去取他的會籍資料"},{"start":247.859,"end":259.626,"text":"這他們最怕的但是你其他的要讓你做農業決策的部分相關的訊息去識別化之後你是可以做的你們現在農糧署這個我們現在這個署長署長上來 署長我忘記你的名字 你叫什麼名陳俊延其實俊延署長他很認真"},{"start":274.234,"end":300.32,"text":"但是呢 我不曉得他帶來 他其實是很瞭解狀況的人利弊得失農民那太少 他都很清楚的啦在業是什麼是什麼 他都很清楚 不好意思但是到你這邊做了決策的時候 確實還是回歸現況好 第四個 農產業研究的資源過於分散你們都給各大學去做資料分散 你給各大學 我也沒意見喔重點你不本部相關的農業相關的資訊 你有沒有統整起來"},{"start":303.061,"end":311.727,"text":"而且缺乏重點的經濟物種的核心計畫好來我們來看國際成功經驗這個成功經驗我們看愛爾蘭的乳流我們只會說人家好"},{"start":312.754,"end":342.334,"text":"這個他好在哪裡其實我們也在這個軌跡上在走啊他能夠你看左邊這是他們的愛爾蘭養牛聯合會國家支持的一個聯合會他能夠讓他的育種率提升一倍他的世代間隔縮短了60%所以講白了就是他的優生學嘛然後每次最最讓我這讓我看到的就是減少每公升牛奶碳排14%講白話一點他就是連牛的放屁他都在開始減少"},{"start":342.554,"end":342.78,"text":"看牌"},{"start":343.496,"end":351.681,"text":"好 我們再看右下角這個挪威的鮭魚跟丹麥的豬隻它們兩個也是一樣這兩個是國際級的公司它們是國際級的公司才有辦法去做這樣的一個精準農業那我們是小農 那怎麼辦政府啊 我們的農業不要當農民的靠山啊不是只靠補貼 補貼我講的是重要保障它及時的讓它不要趕快這個倒下去但是它的後面的產業升級在哪裡它連鮭魚跟豬隻生活週期變短"},{"start":373.354,"end":385.417,"text":"飼料成本降低這就是我們如何如何用我們開放市場之後我們國家的龍魚牧怎麼去跟人家競爭嗎他減少飼料的風險減少飼料的風險跟碳排也減少了嗎好再來我們來看本國的現在的續產種源資料網這個都在網上上游你們從1995年至今存來到這邊的就只有種源樣本"},{"start":399.981,"end":426.948,"text":"保存跟交換功能第二個完全不具備運算跟資料加值什麼意思 你那個叫做資料不叫做資訊而且僅有DNA的資料卻無表型體定序的應用好 再來我們來看奇異果我們大家說他很會行銷其實錯了他在從現在開始本席質詢的前20年他就已經完成了"},{"start":427.848,"end":431.77,"text":"基因資料的收集所以他才能在中國廉價的生產實現價值創造所以我們來看看我們能不能這樣做現況我們是總緣不管是農產 農畜魚都是這樣我們現況就是總緣保存查詢沒有還沒有講到資安保護我們期待他精準決策"},{"start":447.958,"end":457.926,"text":"能夠透過基因體的資料庫跟AI的分析能夠達到四個目的提高生產的效率跟收益能夠縮短育種週期第三個 農業碳排減量第四個 提高農民的專業性進而我們能夠創新應用強化農業韌性我們一直在講農業韌性啦在講什麼農業韌性面對我的氣候變遷抗逆境"},{"start":472.858,"end":492.469,"text":"抗病品系 你像我的這個空包的這個水稻包括之前的那個小番茄的消長不都是氣候變遷嗎 你們就是不承認它是天然災害啊但是我可以透過這樣子的一個基因體的資料庫跟AI的分析 這個等一下在最後我再跟你做討論我的單位產量會提高 促進糧食的安全DNA條碼的運用"},{"start":500.213,"end":528.672,"text":"GS1的導入這個本席在前幾次的質詢當中DNA條碼結合現在2027年全球要推動的GS1條碼的這個運用鑑別進口產品好我們現在缺乏農業雲端大數據這個榮邦學習呀這個再速發布這個已經很成熟的學習什麼意思它是一個分三次的AI訓練各單位可以在不分享原始資料這個很重要的前提下協作訓練"},{"start":530.493,"end":539.796,"text":"既可以保護各單位的私有資訊 又可以訓練最佳的演算這個就是我們所有農業從業人員增進智慧農業現場的效益 我們看左邊A農場 B農場 C農場 這可以是私人的 左邊的農事所拉進來 在這個平台資料加密去識別化之後我們的"},{"start":550.199,"end":563.004,"text":"共同來訓練演算各自ABC包括農事所各自可以去演算但是到這個平台的時候我政府可以運用農事所包括你部本部的連結所以右邊這邊是我們期待的國家農業雲大數據因為國越國家雲大數據出來之後的背後是什麼是你的政策預算能夠精準你能夠智慧的決策"},{"start":574.568,"end":589.537,"text":"那要從基礎做 從最下面的右邊 左下 你生物樣本跟生物資訊這個是龍 魚 龍 鱗 魚 木 都是可以進來的再來往上 基因分析資料的闡述 這是我們要進展的進而到上面 我們的應用平台 進而再到你的國家數據但是當到這應用平台的時候 你的聯邦學習演算的模組就會出來"},{"start":598.823,"end":603.065,"text":"你會上下交流 進而產生下來的是我的回歸到農事單位我們的農研 我們農企 我們的農民是什麼生產效益提升 助益的糧食生產跟永續的發展好 我們再來看極端氣候 長年困擾"},{"start":615.051,"end":618.814,"text":"我們帶來的這個病毒素等的消長的狀況讓小番茄不再生長或有結果那你們農糧署判斷之後呢是病蟲害不算天災無法啟動天災的補助所以呢變成是我們農業局提供肥料的補助好你來看這個稻米空包蛋你們有沒有你們農事組有沒有開發抗病品種我要聽你們講話一下你們有欸"},{"start":639.088,"end":644.033,"text":"你們有耶 部長你們有對於空包的這個道明有抗變品種 抱歉你們沒有普及 農民都不知道產銷班都不知道 都沒有普及所以你也就只好 你一定要給我補助下去好所以呢 我們高雄的隧道也面臨這樣的災害問題好 講到這個 這個就是您的"},{"start":659.508,"end":679.921,"text":"您的前瞻了啦 這我要跟你講了一下國家植物表形體中心好這個左邊這張圖你們幾乎非常的你應該非常的熟悉植物設計導向的快速精準育種他應該做到最上位跟你的這個榮市所當你這個表形體當中可以做環境控制好我就以水稻為例我的抗旱"},{"start":680.962,"end":684.845,"text":"抗熱抗病蟲害就這三個就好了你的環境調控本來我本來8月我才會有有這個8月才會生長的我提早到6月了而且就是長得不好所以你這個環境抗逆境當中我可以變成高溫然後用這個病蟲害的這樣基因下去所產生的優生的品種這個基因在哪裡甚至所以你們現在的我要你調整的你這個做得很好但是你現在給學術單位"},{"start":710.985,"end":715.209,"text":"沒問題 但是你要重點啊 譬如說今年我就做兩個我就做水稻 我有好幾個方案有的是表型體的 有的是基因檢測的 有的是什麼什麼的然後這些總和之後就是水稻所有的數據你整合在一塊 你今年就做這一項就好了你可以透徹到不行 而且是符合台灣我們的這個環境變遷"},{"start":736.207,"end":742.469,"text":"所以如果你能夠做這樣的統整 給各學術單位 而且你有很計畫性的今年我做哪幾個哪幾個品種 然後下去全部透徹的研究產生出來的再給農事所 人數有之後再回饋你這個表形體中心這樣才會讓我農民收益才能普及下去啊這邊會有什麼好處 您這個中心如果有好好的去做這樣的整合的話 數據的整合"},{"start":760.433,"end":764.577,"text":"跟我農事總也結合 我的抗病基因跟風味機會共同選拔我利用基因體的選擇方法會提高風味 也許未來我的水稻有百大米"},{"start":771.325,"end":789.717,"text":"我以後我的隧道我就要有百拉米 就在這裡出來啊然後利用擴大優良品系及種苗的生產跟供應提出先期的檢測跟預警方案幫助農民降低風險啊你再怎麼補都補不到我農民的損失啊按照我們農民我投資了200萬 你再給我補助多少好 再來"},{"start":792.999,"end":815.112,"text":"這邊最後我具體的要求希望參考智慧農業國際成功的案例提出我國農漁畜農漁產的這個生產消費提升的方案不僅限於基因定序第二個提出國家植物表形體中心應該要應用活化的方案而且要針對主要的經濟物種制定資源集中的研究計畫再來這些"},{"start":817.373,"end":828.44,"text":"今年地區的一起水稻栽損以最短暫的時間完成補助你先針對最後一項回答我就可以了你什麼時候補助我高雄地區的一起水稻栽損我講明的你不在這個質詢態度上給我講出來我就絕對不給你解凍 請說"},{"start":834.858,"end":848.815,"text":"有關於那個現在目前的水道是採用水道的一個保險那水道保險在當地的水道收工後一個月之內一定會完成整個的一個保險的一個設計講時間講時間好嗎我們農民現在要聽的就是時間"},{"start":853.356,"end":871.193,"text":"我們的農會現在要聽的就是時間就是他們當地收穫後一個月之內就會出來因為我們用保險的制度那也不用去勘栽我們跟地區地區性的產量如果他比地區的產量比過去五年還低的時候那相對的如果超過20%我們就理賠了"},{"start":872.979,"end":893.766,"text":"所以是我們市政府給你之後的一個月內再補是嗎是這個意思不是不需要地方政府給我們我們會針對當地的產量做調查那那個產量如果跟過去五年的去高去低的平均好那講時間好不好現在五月中現在已經五月快底了那你要多久一個月"},{"start":895.988,"end":912.907,"text":"收貨完一個月所以我在6月今天5月幾號今天5月18號那就是6月18號以前完成所有的補助喔我要跟委員講喔我是說收貨後一個月但是現在高雄地區現在還在收啊"},{"start":914.581,"end":934.106,"text":"收購完一個月部長 嘗試講人民聽得懂的話你只要講人民說 來各位農民這個我告訴你在6月30號以前你會完成補助在7月15號以前你會完成補助這才叫人民聽得懂的話中間的程序是我們的問題"},{"start":935.206,"end":961.74,"text":"是你要去督促各農漁會去公所那去這個我這個是政府這時候你們自己去協調的我跟委員報告說人家明明聽到有的有的現在目前我們不是用天然災害的救助的系統我們用農業保險農業保險第一個就是那個地區收穫完我們會計量它的產量有沒有比過去五年還低如果低20%的時候一個月之內我們就理賠"},{"start":964.281,"end":978.986,"text":"好 所以時間大概就是等高雄區因為不同的地區會不同的時間我們以高雄地區的話大概大概是六月底七月中之前七月中 七月十號以前這樣我們大家都聽到了我們所有農會 我們所有農民請到來都聽到七月中旬以前我們農業部會完成所有的補助好 謝謝 以上"},{"start":988.863,"end":1002.279,"text":"這個要超過百分之二十的喔好要超過百分之二十喔所以農民票好喔我們高雄的農民票好喔大流米農的農民票好喔掙到來喔你如果又不超過百分之二十我們是站不住的喔好 謝謝好謝謝林黛華委員那我們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":156,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時23分）有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，市場開放這件事情，對等關稅所引來的市場開放，確實讓我們農民驚慌不已，本席也認為在中長期來講，農業智慧化才能面對全球的挑戰，所以有幾個議題，第一個，對等關稅的衝擊；第二個，農產業競爭力提升的問題；第三個，在國際經驗的分享當中，我們是否可以再做一些借鏡？第四個，畜產種原資料網的功能貧乏；第五個，在農業決策的部分，農業雲端大數據平臺根本沒有啟動；第六個，面對極端氣候問題常年困擾，也就是本席現在念茲在茲的，就是大寮、美濃的水稻空包彈，這也是跟氣候有關，只是你們不認定而已。包括之前的美濃、杉林小番茄的瘋欉，你們也不認定它是氣候變遷所帶來的，你們認為是病蟲害，可是極端氣候確實在發生，你們要怎麼提供農友更好的方案呢？而不是每次我們都跟你們要補助，補助當然重要，但是重點是要防患於未然，而不是年復一年的一直在處理同樣的問題；第七個，包括這次您催生的國家植物表型體中心，這個本席非常的肯定，但是你們的作法需要調整。","從對等關稅談起已造成人民的恐慌，上週我們在審查「強化社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」的時候，本席就有提到，面對市場的開放，我們的農、畜產應該要參考國際經驗跟先進技術導入的精準農、漁、牧業的產業升級，而先進技術當中，除了本席一直倡議的基因定序，這其實只是其中一項而已。而且利用市場的力量結合政策工具，重點是什麼？縮小國內農、漁、牧產業跟國際的生產成本差距，這樣才能不怕國際競爭！但是我們有沒有做到？重點是縮小國內農、漁、牧產業跟國際的生產成本差距。我們農民是不怕苦的，我是擔心被國外低價農產品的價值破壞。","從本席做國會議員到現在，爬梳我們農產業至今競爭力提升的問題，有四項：第一個，農業部資源投入多強調在補助跟補貼，補助當然重要，它的重點是即時性的保障我們的農民，但是對於以小農為主的臺灣，我國農業競爭力提升卻是非常有限的。第二個，推動重點多數在農民的硬體建設，但是在農業的共用基礎設施跟農業軟實力提升上，成效是有限的。什麼叫做硬體設備？我們有沒有補助農機設的改善？有。我們有沒有補助冷鏈？有。我們這次有沒有花大量的經費補助溫室？有，這個也該做，但是我們現在應該要提升了。您這邊累積了歷任部長、主委的經驗後，現在你要做的是共用基礎設施跟農業軟實力的提升，這是你應該要做的。第三個，推動智慧農業的方案多數在農業自動化，也就是說，成功的案場數相對有限，本席長期主張的就是農業決策，你部長跟你所有一級主管機關的農業決策智慧化跟精準化，有啦！你們有做啦！部本部裡面的行政流程，像是公文、財務等等，這你們有做。然後我最在意的就是農漁會合作社，他們的進、銷、存、肥料等，甚至會計，有沒有整合這樣的雲端平臺？沒有！我倡議了好久，你們也來跟我講了好幾次，到現在你們的結論是什麼？還是讓各農會去做。我不需要農會，我講明了，我也要替農會講話，你不可以去取他的會籍資料，這是他們最怕的。但是其他要讓你做農業決策的部分，相關訊息去識別化之後，你是可以做的。現在的農糧署署長陳俊言很認真，他其實是很了解狀況的人，利弊得失、農民在想什麼，他都很清楚，連他們在意的是什麼，他都很清楚，但是不好意思，到你這邊做了決策之後，確實還是回歸現況。第四個，農產業研究資源過於分散，你們都給各大學去做，資料分散，你給各大學做，我也沒意見喔！重點是部本部相關的農業、相關的資訊有沒有統整起來？而且缺乏重點經濟物種核心計畫。","我們來看國際成功經驗──愛爾蘭的乳牛，我們只會說人家好，但好在哪裡？其實我們也在這個軌跡上在走，你看左邊，這是愛爾蘭養牛聯合會，是一個國家支持的聯合會，它能夠讓育種率提升一倍，世代間隔縮短了60%，講白了，就是它的優生學。然後最讓我在意的是，減少每公升牛奶碳排放14%，講白話一點，就是連牛放屁都在減少碳排。我們再看右下角，挪威的鮭魚跟丹麥的豬隻，他們兩個也是一樣，這兩個是國際級的公司，他們是國際級的公司才有辦法去做這樣的精準農業，但我們是小農，怎麼辦？要靠政府啊！我們的農業部要當農民的靠山啊！不是只靠補貼，補貼當然重要，可以及時保障他，讓他不要倒下去，但是他後面的產業升級在哪裡？人家把鮭魚跟豬隻的生活週期變短、飼料成本降低，這就是開放市場之後，我們國家的農、漁、牧要怎麼去跟人家競爭嘛！他減少飼料的風險，碳排也減少了嘛！","再來，我們來看本國的，現在的畜產種原資料網，這個在網站上都有，你們從1995年至今儲存到這邊的就只有種原樣本的保存跟交換功能。第二個，完全不具備運算跟資料加值的功能，什麼意思？就是你那個叫做資料，不叫做資訊，而且僅有DNA資料，卻無表形體定序的應用。再來，我們來看奇異果，大家都說它很會行銷，其實錯了！它是從現在開始本席質詢的前20年就已經完成了基因資料的收集，所以它才能在中國廉價生產下實現價值創造。","所以我們來看看我們能不能這樣做？現況方面，我們是種原，農、畜、漁都是這樣，我們的現況就是種原保存與查詢，還沒有講到資安保護喔！我們期待它精準決策，能夠透過基因體資料庫跟AI分析來達到四個目的：提高生產效率跟收益、能夠縮短育種週期、農業碳排減量、提高農民專業性，進而我們能夠創新應用，強化農業韌性。我們一直在講農業韌性，在講什麼農業韌性呢？面對氣候變遷，抗逆境、抗病品系育成，像我們空包的水稻，包括之前小番茄的瘋欉，不都是氣候變遷造成的嗎？你們就是不承認它是天然災害，但是我可以透過這樣子的基因體資料庫跟AI分析，這個等一下我最後再跟您做討論，我的單位產量會提高，促進糧食安全。DNA條碼運用，GS1的導入，這個本席在前幾次質詢當中就提到，DNA條碼結合2027年全球要推動的GS1條碼應用，鑑別進口產品。","我們現在缺乏農業雲端大數據平臺，「聯邦學習」在數發部，這個是已經很成熟的學習，什麼意思？它是一個分散式AI訓練架構，各單位可以在不分享原始資料的前提下協作訓練模型，這個很重要，既可以保護各單位的私有資訊，又可以訓練最佳演算模組，這個可供所有農業從業人員增進智慧農業現場效益。我們看左邊，有A農場、B農場、C農場，這可以是私人的，左邊的農試所拉進來，在這個平臺資料加密去識別化之後，我們共同來訓練演算模型，A、B、C，包括農試所可以各自去演算，但是到這個平臺的時候，我們政府可以運用農試所，包括你部本部的連結，所以右邊是我們期待的國家農業雲大數據，因為國家農業雲大數據出來之後，背後是什麼？是你的政策、預算能夠精準，你能夠智慧的決策，這要從基礎做，從左下的生物樣本跟生物資訊，這是農、林、漁、牧都可以進來的。再來往上到基因分析資料的產出，這是我們要進展的，進而到上面我們的應用平臺，進而再到你的國家數據。但是當到應用平臺的時候，你的聯邦學習的演算模組就會出來，會上下交流，進而產生下來回歸到農試單位、農研、農企業和農民的是什麼？是生產效益提升、助益糧食生產跟農業永續發展。","我們再來看，極端氣候長年困擾，帶來病毒素等「瘋欉」狀況，讓小番茄不再生長或有結果，農糧署判斷是病蟲害，不算天災，無法啟動天災補助，所以變成由農業局提供肥料補助。有關稻米空包彈，農試所有沒有開發抗病品種？我要替你們講一下話，你們有！你們有對於空包的稻米有開發抗病品種，但沒有普及，農民、產銷班都不知道，所以都沒有普及，請你一定要給我補助下去，高雄的水稻也面臨這樣的災害問題。","接著講到這個就是您的前瞻了。我要鼓勵你一下，就是國家植物表型體中心。左邊這張圖你應該非常熟悉，植物設計導向的快速精準育種，它應該跟農試所做到最上位，因為表型體可以做環境控制。我就以水稻為例，抗旱、抗熱、抗病蟲害這三個就好了，透過環境調控，本來8月才會生長的可以提早到6月，但長得不好，所以在環境抗逆境當中，可以抗高溫又抗病蟲害的優生品種基因在哪裡？現在我要你們調整，這個做得很好給學術單位沒問題，但重點是譬如今年就做兩個，例如水稻，有好幾個方案，有的是表型體的，有的是基因檢測的，有的是什麼、什麼的，這些總合之後就是把水稻所有的數據整合在一塊，你今年做這一項就好了，會透澈到不行而且符合臺灣的環境變遷。如果你能夠做這樣的統整給各學術單位，而且很有計畫性的規劃今年做哪幾個品種，然後全部透澈研究，產生出來的結果再給農試所，之後再回饋給表型體中心，這樣才會讓農民受益、才能普及下去。這樣會有什麼好處？這個中心如果有好好做這樣數據的整合，也跟農試所結合，抗病基因跟風味基因共同選拔，利用基因體的選擇方法會提高風味，也許未來水稻會有芭樂味，以後水稻有芭樂味就是因此而來，利用擴大優良品系及種苗的生產跟供應，提出先期的檢測跟預警方案，幫助農民降低風險。因為你再怎麼補都補不足農民的損失，農民投資了200萬，你才補助多少？","最後，我具體要求，希望參考智慧農業國際成功的案例，提出我國農、畜、漁產生產效益提升方案，不僅限於基因定序。第二個、提出國家植物表型體中心應該要應用活化的方案，而且要針對主要經濟物種制定資源集中的研究計畫。再來，今年高雄地區的一期水稻災損以最短暫的時間完成補助。你先針對最後一項回答我就可以了，什麼時候補助高雄地區的一期水稻災損？我講明，你不在這個質詢台上講出來，我就絕對不給你解凍。請說。"],["陳部長駿季：目前水稻是採用水稻保險，水稻保險在當地水稻收穫後一個月之內，一定會完成整個保險設計的給付。"],["林委員岱樺：講時間，好嗎？農民現在要聽的就是時間，農會現在要聽的就是時間。"],["陳部長駿季：一個月。當地收穫後一個月之內就會出來，因為我們是用保險的制度，也不用去勘災，如果地區性產量比過去五年還低，相對的，假如超過20%，我們就理賠，這是保險。"],["林委員岱樺：所以是市政府給你之後的一個月內再補，是嗎？是這個意思？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，不需要地方政府給我們，而是我們會針對當地的產量調查，如果產量低於過去五年趨高趨低的平均20%，一個月之內……"],["林委員岱樺：講時間，好不好？現在5月中、已經快5月底了，你要多久？一個月內？兩個禮拜內？"],["陳部長駿季：收穫完一個月。"],["林委員岱樺：好，一個月內，所以我在6月……今天5月幾號？"],["主席：5月18號。"],["林委員岱樺：今天5月18號，那就是6月18號以前完成所有的補助。"],["陳部長駿季：沒有！我要跟委員講，我是說收穫後一個月，但是高雄地區現在還在收，是收穫完一個月。"],["主席：收穫完後……"],["林委員岱樺：請部長嘗試講人民聽得懂的話。"],["陳部長駿季：我講得非常清楚。"],["林委員岱樺：你只要跟各位農民說：「我告訴你，在6月30號以前會完成補助」；或「在7月15號以前會完成補助」。這才叫人民聽得懂的話，中間的程序是你們的問題。要督促各農漁會、區公所、市政府，這是你們自己要去協調的。要講人民聽得懂的話！"],["陳部長駿季：目前我們不是用天然災害救助的系統，而是用農業保險。至於農業保險，第一個就是那個地區收穫完，我們會計量它的產量有沒有比過去五年還低，如果低於20%，一個月之內我們就理賠。"],["林委員岱樺：所以大概的時間呢？"],["陳部長駿季：就是等高雄區。因為不同的地區會不同的時間，以高雄地區的話……"],["林委員岱樺：我問大寮、美濃。"],["陳部長駿季：大概是6月底、7月中之前應該會理賠。"],["林委員岱樺：7月中、7月15號以前？好，這樣大家都聽到了，所有的農會、所有的稻農都聽到了。7月中旬以前農業部會完成所有的補助。謝謝，以上。"],["陳部長駿季：這個要超過20%的才有。"],["林委員岱樺：好，要超過20%，所以高雄的稻農聽好，大寮、美濃的稻農民聽好，如果沒有超過20%，是拿不到的！好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林岱樺委員。","下一位請邱議瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-13","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張嘉郡","謝衣鳯","陳超明","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","郭昱晴","陳冠廷","張雅琳","呂玉玲"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理或審查114年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等 30案；二、處理或\n審查114年度中央政府總預算有關公平交易委員會主管預算凍結案等8案","agenda_id":"1145101_00004"}}},{"id":"161525","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161525","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f0a926de4128d04f4f98327315c1c974558b7b28ebcc841bb4acf5f62b65bb2c8e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:28:12 - 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:247.97,"text":"某大部分其實都是跟軍事有關我們最近也看到這個海巡相關的騷擾但是中國同樣的在520應該在外交上也會有所動作所以在這個時候它不一定是當然是除了這個接觸我們的邦交國之外它也有可能藉由這樣的一個新聞去炒作輿論然後又要講說什麼台灣外交部可能對外有所對外不利"},{"start":254.153,"end":273.646,"text":"這個沒有好好照顧我們的邦交國等等之類的這樣的輿論可能也會傳出所以我覺得有可能在520之前外交部隊這個可能要做好準備做好準備是 我們很早就準備因為中共會在我們總統就職週年在外交上挖我們牆角是可預期包括在國際組織上壓縮我們的空間包括2758號這個決議那對這些我們也因為都有"},{"start":280.831,"end":299.338,"text":"事先的這個做好準備到目前為止都在我們掌握的情況之下希望沒有意外因為我覺得就是因為今天病情跟解凍是比較有關係所以我想說這個外交部對於520之前的一些所作所為可能對我們來講都是重要的一個監督範圍"},{"start":300.518,"end":330.238,"text":"但裡面還有一個這我時間快到我有一個小地方就是之前我有在問這個NGO論壇那因為其實呢我那時候有提出一個某部分的凍結案到後來併案了那因為併案之後呢這個就沒有特別在這個解凍報告裡面來說明所以這邊可能想問一下部長就是說在接下來就是我們這幾年在舉辦類似的這種NGO論壇它的受眾還有它的這一個評估就是說我們今天要怎麼去評估說這個那個效益為何"},{"start":331.218,"end":358.345,"text":"因為我們現在有很多NGO其實在國外是幫我們講話它是我們很重要的這個總和外交的一環那但是就是說呢我們現在要怎麼去評估然後它的參與者的回饋如何這個接下來的這一個未來的規劃大概是什麼樣子是NGO外交是我們總和外交很重要的一部分那比如是今年的玉山論壇我們也經過一些NGO代表還有智庫的代表有倡議要成立NGO中心在台灣"},{"start":361.167,"end":382.664,"text":"做一個hub也能夠來協調促進更多的交流合作那當然今年很特別是因為川普政府對USAID的改組導致很多NGO運作困難我們也透過我們的管道跟我們的方式"},{"start":384.405,"end":398.795,"text":"盡量的去協助能夠撐過這個危險的比較困難的時刻那NGO它的自主性很強議題範圍很廣這個也是代表民主社會才會有的所以我們在這方面會加強是因為相對於中國"},{"start":399.956,"end":427.254,"text":"它是一個極權國家它不允許這些公民社團或組織的一個自主的存在所以這裡面我們也希望說NGO的事務會能夠扮演更大的我們像總和外交社會是各部會其實不同的議題因為他們的關切不一樣實際上是屬於各部會的業務只是都跟我們外交有關係所以我們會加強跟國內各部會的聯繫"},{"start":430.096,"end":452.282,"text":"幫忙或者是說促進國內NGO的對外的交流畢竟他們才是主體那透過NGO外交來推動這個價值外交對其實我follow up一個就是剛剛部長提到我覺得一個蠻重要的一點就是說因為NGO在這個補助上面在去年一直到今年其實都有遇到一定的困難我說在國際上"},{"start":453.582,"end":461.379,"text":"所以我們都在民主基金會所以民主基金會一定程度的幫助其實對於我們要去能夠交到這些朋友無尼是重要的"},{"start":461.994,"end":486.386,"text":"我也用這個機會跟委員報告當然包括民主基金會是跨黨派其實也在提案希望其實明年的預算可以增加因為在這個時刻在全世界最需要台灣的時候我們如果能夠增加預算現在的這個董事長是韓國瑜院長也是立法院各黨派都有代表我們希望來強化民主基金會的角色"},{"start":487.086,"end":514.136,"text":"對 因為像這個像我知道在東南亞可能有一些媒體它本來也是有一些NGO相關的資助但後來它也是因為這個樣子就是中國反而把手伸進來然後它想要去資助這些媒體也會有我剛剛講的像索羅門的那樣一個案件就是中國所資助的媒體在海外去散播這些訊息所以對我們來講就是說我們跟NGO之間的關係我們當然不能夠直接對媒體"},{"start":515.356,"end":531.504,"text":"但我們跟NGO之間的關係很有很大的程度會影響到海外的這個輿論戰那這個部分我認為是重要的這個也拉回到我今天在最前面問的就是長佐的這個人事案因為他長期以來其實跟NGO跟I-NGO的關係其實非常好他也擔任過這個國際特赦的這個分會長"},{"start":534.685,"end":547.362,"text":"所以我覺得藉由這一個人事的任命案我會認為是不是也要藉由這一個節點去把更多的NGO跟INGO拉進來那這樣的話對我們來交朋友來講一定會有更好的一個幫助"},{"start":549.128,"end":574.099,"text":"是 確實當然林委員他的背景除了音樂文化的方面的專長以外其實在人權的議題上面他也是這個國際特色組織台灣分會的會長也出席過各種國際的會議那我們希望當然總和外交是讓各方面都能夠走向世界另外我也跟委員報告其實以民主國家的經驗擔任過國會議員包括"},{"start":576.781,"end":595.684,"text":"我想外交國安委會每一位立委其實都是具備擔任大使跟代表的條件我這講的是不分黨派因為國會議員他對國政很了解對行政部門監督所以大家當到外交的第一線的時候其實這個是民主的常態對 希望能夠好好發揮謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":97,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（9時28分）謝謝主席。有請部長。","部長好。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["沈委員伯洋：今天是處理解凍，但是因為剛好這幾天有一件時事，就是在芬蘭，我們有新人事的新聞，是不是可以請部長先稍微跟國人做一個簡單的說明？"],["林部長佳龍：好，有關於外界關切林昶佐先生的這個人事案，現在在辦理中，因為大使的派任是由總統來決定，總統府來公告，所以這個作業程序在進行當中。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，我相信今天可能會有很多問題都是在這個方面。但是因為今天是處理解凍案，所以我最主要還是針對解凍的事項來問一下。因為這一次討論事項第4案，關於「業務費」凍結50%，到執行30%才可以申請解凍，我認為這個應該是蠻重要的一個，畢竟這個影響到外館的經營，再來，它還要經過院會，所以我們是希望今天委員會可以通過，裡面有幾個細項，我想要來問一下。","第一個，上次部長因為有事，所以沒有來，但上次我問過有關索羅門議員遭到施壓，要他退出IPAC這樣的事情，上次我是著重在報導的這個報紙，因為在這個整體作戰裡面，這個報導的報紙其實也是中國投資的報紙，但是相對於這樣的情形，就是議員遭受到施壓，這是第一個。第二個就是在中拉論壇我們邦交國的出席其實對臺灣也可能會有一定程度的影響，這個當然在外館的業務上面都蠻重要的。是不是可以請部長說明一下？"],["林部長佳龍：是，有關於這兩個案子，首先，索羅門群島因為不信任投票後來又撤回，引起他們內閣小幅改組，有一些入閣的人士過去有參加IPAC；對於他放棄擔任這個共同主席的相關角色，我們當然表示遺憾，也了解中國的施壓，我們會持續努力跟友好的國會議員及政黨保持聯繫，也促請未來跟臺灣的關係能夠有一些交流合作。","至於中拉論壇，它是中國跟拉共體之間組織對組織的關係，外交部都有密切掌握，有兩個友邦有代表前往。海地方面，因為他現在可以說是正處於臨時政府的階段，所以不會做出什麼決定，事前事後也都有跟我們溝通，我們當然勸阻，不過他們基於他們國家的考量，所以我覺得我們在這一次的掌握上都能夠充分掌握。至於聖露西亞，他不是由外交部長是其他政黨人士，他們也有所說明。"],["沈委員伯洋：我認為當然中方故意在這邊又在講一個中國原則等等之類的，這個當然會有一些影響，但我在想的事情是因為520將至，在520中國其實動作一定會很多，大部分都是跟軍事有關，我們最近也看到他們對我們海域的相關騷擾，同樣的，中國在520應該在外交上也會有所動作，這個時候除了接觸我們的邦交國之外，他還有可能藉由這樣的新聞去炒作輿論，又來講臺灣的外交部可能對外不力，沒有好好照顧邦交國等等之類的，這樣的輿論可能也會傳出，所以我覺得在520之前外交部對這個可能要做好準備、要做好準備。"],["林部長佳龍：是，我們很早就有準備，因為中共會在我們總統就職周年在外交上挖我們牆腳是可預期的，包括在國際組織上壓縮我們的空間，包括2758號決議，對於這些我們都有事先做好準備，到目前為止都在我們掌握的情況之下，希望沒有意外。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，我覺得今天的議程畢竟是跟解凍比較有關係，而外交部在520之前的所作所為對我們來講都是重要的監督範圍。但裡面還有一個，我時間快到了，我有一個小地方，就是之前我有在問有關NGO論壇，其實那時候我有提出某部分的凍結案，後來併案了，併案之後就沒有特別在這個解凍報告裡面來說明，所以想問一下部長，就是這幾年我們舉辦類似這種NGO論壇的受眾及它的評估，要怎麼去評估效益為何？因為現在有很多NGO在國外其實是幫我們講話的，他們是我們在總合外交很重要的一環，但是我們現在要怎麼去評估它的效益，還有它的參與者回饋如何，未來的規劃大概是什麼樣子？"],["林部長佳龍：NGO外交是我們總合外交很重要的一部分，比如今年的玉山論壇，我們也經過一些NGO代表，還有智庫代表，倡議要成立INGO中心在臺灣，就是設一個Hub，能夠來協調促進更多的交流合作。當然今年很特別是因為川普政府對USAID的改組，導致很多NGO運作困難，我們也透過我們的管道及方式儘量去協助，讓他們能夠撐過這個比較困難的時刻。NGO的自主性很強，議題範圍很廣，這也是民主社會才會有的，我們在這個方面會加強是因為相對於中國，他是一個集權國家，他不允許這些公民社團或組織的自主存在，我們也希望這個NGO的事務會能夠扮演更大的角色，我們也希望總合外交就是各部會一起，因為不同的議題他們關切的不一樣，實際上是屬於各部會的業務，只是都跟我們外交有關係，所以我們會加強跟國內各部會的聯繫，然後也會幫忙或促進國內NGO對外的交流，畢竟他們才是主體，透過NGO外交來推動價值外交。"],["沈委員伯洋：我follow up一個，剛剛部長提到我覺得蠻重要的一點，因為NGO在這一個補助上面，從去年一直到今年在國際上其實都有遇到一定的困難，我們都在民主基金會，所以民主基金會如果有一定程度的幫助，對於我們能夠交到這些朋友無疑是重要的。"],["林部長佳龍：我也用這個機會跟委員報告，民主基金會是跨黨派，其實也在提案希望明年的預算可以增加，因為在這個時刻是全世界最需要臺灣的時候，我們如果能夠增加預算，現在的董事長是韓國瑜院長，也是立法院各黨派都有代表，我們希望來強化民主基金會的角色。"],["沈委員伯洋：像我知道在東南亞可能有一些媒體，它本來也是有一些NGO相關的資助，但後來也是因為這個樣子，中國反而把手伸進來，他想要去資助這些媒體，也會有我剛剛講的像索羅門那樣的案件，就是中國所資助的媒體在海外去散播這一些訊息，所以對我們來講，我們當然不能夠直接對媒體，但我們跟NGO之間的關係有很大的程度會影響到海外的輿論戰，這個部分我認為是重要的，這個也拉回到我今天在最前面問的，就是林昶佐的人事案，因為他長期以來跟NGO、INGO的關係非常好，也擔任過國際特赦的分會長，所以我覺得藉由這一個人事的任命案，我會認為是不是也要藉由這一個節點去把更多的NGO跟INGO拉進來？這樣對我們交朋友一定會有更好的一個幫助。"],["林部長佳龍：是，確實，林委員他的背景除了音樂、文化這方面的專長以外，其實在人權的議題上面，他也是國際特赦組織臺灣分會的會長，也出席過各種國際的會議，我們總合外交希望各方面都能夠走向世界。","另外，我也跟委員報告，其實以民主國家的經驗，擔任過國會議員，我想包括外交及國防委員會的每一位立委，其實都具備擔任大使跟代表的條件，我這講的是不分黨派，因為國會議員對國政很了解、對行政部門監督，所以大家到外交的第一線，其實這個是民主的常態。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，希望能夠好好發揮，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["主席（馬委員文君代）：謝謝，接下來請黃仁黃召委上臺詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-15","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","王定宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅美玲","林憶君","王鴻薇","陳永康"],"page_start":319,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等48案","agenda_id":"1145001_00014"}}},{"id":"161524","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161524","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f0acbc8b041a24ea2e239b9191e0d12eea8b7b28ebcc841bb4a08c380e87b7bb0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:15:12 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這個個案最高檢察總長講了好幾次啊"},{"start":133.451,"end":152.903,"text":"這種案子要盯好啊但我現在看不懂啊一個基本的問題徐少東在這個案子以前有沒有被通緝過徐少東在這件以前沒有通緝過來看一下早就多次被通緝了啦法院的裁定寫得很清楚啦"},{"start":153.891,"end":178.502,"text":"之前他跟法院申請延長有關於禁止出境出海的法院判決理由寫得很清楚啊前面有通緝未到案的紀錄還不是一次欸好幾次欸然後法院在裁定理由當中認定什麼認定說他有應變計畫有私下管道能夠出境"},{"start":179.865,"end":208.724,"text":"結果咧結果好笑了要不要羈押是一回事有實施電子監控嗎有嗎這部分齁這部分那個二審的檢察官有建立那個法院這部分要實施電子監控然後法院沒有採因為沒有開庭還沒有到開庭就就所以嘛這案子來看一下齁第一刻啊二審判了12年"},{"start":210.58,"end":220.863,"text":"重刑犯而且那個徐少東啊可怕的是什麼他不是只有吸金洗錢耶他沒有違反反滲透法被起訴"},{"start":222.571,"end":238.219,"text":"有沒有這部分我們有申請羈押但是因為法院不准我們一層一層來嘛現在人民看不懂嘛我們檢察官這部分都有申請羈押那個法務部部長請你聽我問完問題再回答好不好法務部部長請你聽我問完問題再回答可以嗎可以嗎可以嗎這可以好來人民看不懂嗎"},{"start":250.814,"end":270.951,"text":"跑了好幾次被通緝啊重判12年啊還違反反滲透法結果咧沒有羈押就算了連電子監控也沒有連電子監控也沒有 我有說錯嗎 沒有啊現在人跑了啊"},{"start":272.213,"end":291.652,"text":"我最簡單一個事情誰要負責還是法務部跟司法院繼續上演踢皮球大賽來部長你覺得誰要負責這部分我們檢查在這三個案件都有申請羈押來司法院副秘書長所以是不是法官要檢討是不是這樣這個部分那個法院"},{"start":296.471,"end":324.365,"text":"在二審的那個法院呢 他是有訂那個庭期就是要準備要那個 對吧來 這個案子審理多久了這個案子審理多久了人跑了現在才說 啊 我們原來有要訂庭期啊去年的時候就已經判12年了然後現在突然說人跑了 開始裝忙說法院要訂庭期too late"},{"start":325.424,"end":350.803,"text":"人跑掉了是這樣嗎你可能跟委員報告齁就是從四月中文字那個案件之後呢其實司法院也都有就是請我老實講啦中文字是第一個案子嗎之前諸葛隆不就跑掉了嗎諸葛隆跑掉了法務部司法院要不要各自回去看一看你們當初發了什麼新聞稿"},{"start":352.981,"end":381.528,"text":"要不要回去看一看你們當初發了什麼新聞稿朱國榮跑了 裝忙一陣子鍾文智跑了 再裝忙一陣子現在連徐少東都跑了為什麼人民對司法這麼憤怒有關係就沒關係嘛人家後台硬啊違反反滲透法又怎麼樣背叛12年又怎麼樣不要說沒有羈押啊連電子監控都沒有"},{"start":384.234,"end":412.551,"text":"來請法務部部長不好意思來請調查局副局長我接到檢舉啊調查局是不是有個調查官啊裝密錄器在超商偷拍未成年少女的群體有沒有這回事有這回事我們已經在依照我們的程序在處理了什麼時候發生的事情應該是大概兩個禮拜以前兩個禮拜以前處理到今天處理成什麼樣子"},{"start":413.766,"end":434.999,"text":"我們已經 土茶室也找他來約談過然後呢我們會盡快的開考機會來做處理現在有停職嗎目前沒有停職目前沒有停職我們要經過考機會要經過一定程序之後才會做這樣的處理可以快點開嗎會 盡快 我們會盡快開不是啊 做這種令人髮指的行為啊做這種令人髮指的行為"},{"start":436.653,"end":460.38,"text":"結果你們調查員裡面的人跟我檢舉啊說看他好好的沒有事啊連停職都沒有啊這什麼官真啊報告員我們在知道這個狀況第二天我們就已經對他處長找他約談過然後咧整個狀況我們會什麼時候開考記會我們會盡快安排就開考記會盡快是多久我想我們會回去之後我們已經在討論我們在找適當的時間我會盡快還要在找適當的時間喔這樣的人還適合繼續當調查官嗎"},{"start":467.455,"end":489.689,"text":"請調查局盡快不要讓大家產生錯覺一個堂堂的調查官做這種令人髮指的事情結果現在還好好的什麼事都沒有來接下來請法務部部長從列同的案子大家就開始在講無期徒刑"},{"start":493.851,"end":520.512,"text":"台灣的無期徒刑根本是假的台灣的無期徒刑是假的沒有真的在搞無期徒刑我們從具體的案子來講1999年一個大黑道殺人罪遭判無期徒刑2017年假釋出獄負保護管束結果咧把假釋放出來了以後做了什麼事情來我們繼續看"},{"start":522.469,"end":538.414,"text":"把假釋放出來了以後繼續啊搞買兇殺人啊洗錢啊詐欺啊恐嚇取材啊樣樣都來啊第一個問題啊法務部有沒有檢討當初這個假釋是怎麼做的有跟委員報告事實上這個假釋的這個問題假釋的要件是什麼"},{"start":545.987,"end":567.837,"text":"假釋的話就是有千毀十據然後呢執行的有超過有些二分之一這樣就可以囉那武器農要二十萬這不過還是要千毀十據啦要具體個案所以你覺得他這樣有千毀十據嗎這部分是那時候是如果有千毀十據的人出來又買兇殺人又洗錢又詐欺又恐嚇取材喔你不會覺得很諷刺嗎"},{"start":569.668,"end":595.206,"text":"這個假釋認定是怎麼定的 有缺毀時劇認定他有缺毀時劇結果出來又買兇殺人造成更大的危害當初這個假釋誰准的這個是應該十一年級回去了解好不好這個假釋應該是在十幾年前的時候的一樣嘛2017年就放出來了我時間有講錯嗎"},{"start":597.25,"end":615.846,"text":"那這部分我們回去再做一個了解需要多久一個禮拜可不可以兩個禮拜而已好 兩個禮拜當初假釋怎麼準的提書面報告給本委員會啊提書面報告給本委員會啊為什麼人民對無期徒刑沒有信心搞假的嘛"},{"start":617.688,"end":637.811,"text":"殺人了 判無期徒刑又怎麼樣所以這部分我們有提一個草案就是對特殊重大暴力類型的犯罪比如說殺人 殺人未遂判無期徒刑有期徒刑逾十年這邊受刑我們是有提修正案是不得假釋好 這個修正案現在到哪裡在行政院審查中行政院還要審查多久"},{"start":638.956,"end":652.763,"text":"已經開兩次審查 一樣嘛我們又陷入了無限巡迴嘛當初崔少哲保護法 法務部也是說我們早就提出來了一直在行政院審查 研議審查恩典"},{"start":655.121,"end":682.167,"text":"棄保潛逃罪不法關說罪一模一樣法務部也是說我們早提出來了就在行政院研議研議N年來就有關於法務部所謂提出來的這個法案部長你判斷行政院還要研議多久嗯這部分我們沒有辦法判斷這我們會會禁訴會禁訴對這不是到行政院了嗎對在這部分我們會這個你可以禁訴缺少者保護法沒辦法禁訴"},{"start":684.11,"end":709.889,"text":"不法關說沒辦法禁訴 棄保潛逃沒辦法禁訴請部長回去轉告行政院院長卓榮泰人民很憤怒啊 人民很憤怒啊問一下卓榮泰 他還要研議多久問一下卓榮泰 他還要研議多久全民都在等他的答案這委員放心啊 這個我們會放心 從你們過去的時機有辦法放心嗎"},{"start":712.157,"end":736.632,"text":"從你們過去的時期有辦法放心嗎好來繼續再往下看2012年民間司改會發動了一個追緝二檢的行動針對檢察官在問案的時候威脅 恐嚇逼人認罪 壓人取共提出沉痛的呼籲當初這個追緝二檢行動的三位大將"},{"start":738.12,"end":763.567,"text":"一位林峰正現在不當黨產管理委員會主任委員一位顧立雄現在是國防部部長一位游博翔現在到憲法法庭當大法官當初這三位代表民間司改會要出來追緝二檢講的話是直立有聲請問一下部長你覺得當初要追緝二檢的問題今天還存在嗎"},{"start":765.565,"end":794.461,"text":"這部分我們都有通函我們就有要求任何的機會就要求我們這個在依法定程序所以你沒有回答我的問題嗎這段問題還存在嗎我們是隨時注意我想這個所謂二檢這部分我們就依法官法這部分我們要做一個依法官來做一個處理做什麼處理 不要講空洞的啦講那麼空泛的"},{"start":795.783,"end":815.495,"text":"事實上我們有受理,依法官受理檢查個案拼件已經有982件,每年收案217件我們看一下當初監察院是怎麼糾正法務部的來看一下,這是十幾年前檢察官代表國家刑事犯罪偵查追溯"},{"start":816.428,"end":844.03,"text":"以不當的方式怒罵威脅受詢問人不僅是個人的言行不當更嚴重損及國家形象及司法尊嚴也侵害受詢問人人權的保障十幾年前我這三位民間司改會的夥伴講的是直立有聲現在呢現在呢現在會不會出現這樣的狀況我希望部長回去"},{"start":845.168,"end":864.416,"text":"好好的了解一下第一線實際上面的狀況好好的了解今天我敢在這邊公開質詢我手上就是有實據我很想把錄音帶放出來好好讓全民聽一聽我們的檢察官現在是怎麼在問案的好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":305,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時15分）謝謝主席，麻煩請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長以及法務部調查局副局長。"],["主席：副秘書長、法務部部長、調查局副局長。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員早安。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個問題請教司法院和法務部代表，賴清德總統執政週年，TVBS針對11個面向的各項施政滿意和不滿意度做出民調，請問司法改革的滿意度排名第幾名？司法院副秘書長，知不知道？"],["王副秘書長梅英：有在媒體上看到。"],["黃委員國昌：排名第幾名？"],["王副秘書長梅英：滿意度排名最後。"],["黃委員國昌：最後一名，不滿意度呢？"],["王副秘書長梅英：最高。"],["黃委員國昌：所以對於賴清德總統執政到目前為止，司法改革你打幾分？你個人打幾分？不好打分數？請法務部部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個民調是可以參考，那……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你個人打幾分？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我認為是及格。"],["黃委員國昌：你認為是及格。我們來看一下，部長的認知為什麼跟一般民眾脫節這麼嚴重？第一個問題，又一個重大的金融犯跑了，徐少東，關係很好，後臺很硬，跑了！請教一下，現在發布通緝了沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這是審理中的案件，有沒有發布通緝，要看法院……"],["黃委員國昌：法院發布通緝了沒有？"],["王副秘書長梅英：目前還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼還沒有？為什麼還沒有？多給他一點時間跑嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：現在還在拘提，應該是還在拘提階段。"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得拘提得到嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這要看他們那個……"],["黃委員國昌：請教法務部部長，最高檢察總長講了好幾次，這種案子要盯好，但我現在看不懂一個基本的問題，徐少東在這個案子以前有沒有被通緝過？"],["鄭部長銘謙：徐少東這一件……"],["黃委員國昌：以前？"],["鄭部長銘謙：以前沒有通緝過。"],["黃委員國昌：來！看一下，早就多次被通緝了啦！法院的裁定寫得很清楚，之前他跟法院聲請延長有關於禁止出境出海的規定，法院判決理由寫得很清楚：前有通緝未到案之相關紀錄。還不是一次，有好幾次，然後法院在裁定理由中認定什麼？認定他有應變計畫，有私下管道能夠出境，結果呢？結果好笑了！要不要羈押是一回事，有實施電子監控嗎？有嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分二審的檢察官有建議法院要實施電子監控。"],["黃委員國昌：然後法院沒有採？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為還沒有到開庭就傳喚不到。"],["黃委員國昌：所以嘛！看一下這個案子，第一，二審判了12年，是重刑犯，而且這個徐少東可怕的是什麼？他不是只有吸金洗錢，他有沒有違反反滲透法被起訴？有沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有，這部分我們有聲請羈押，但是因為法院不准……"],["黃委員國昌：我們一層一層來看，現在人民看不懂，這個人……"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官這部分都有聲請，這三個案，包括銀行法……"],["黃委員國昌：法務部部長，請你聽我問完問題再回答，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：選罷法和國安法……"],["黃委員國昌：法務部部長，請你聽我問完問題再回答，可以嗎？可以嗎？可以嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：人民看不懂啊！跑了好幾次被通緝，重判12年，還違反反滲透法，結果沒有羈押就算了，連電子監控也沒有，我有說錯嗎？沒有啊！現在人跑了，我就問最簡單一件事情，誰要負責？還是法務部跟司法院繼續上演踢皮球大賽？部長，你覺得誰要負責？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們檢察官在這三個案件都有聲請羈押。"],["黃委員國昌：司法院副秘書長，所以是不是法官要檢討？是不是這樣？"],["王副秘書長梅英：這個部分，二審的法院有定庭期，就是準備要審理……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！這個案子審理多久了？人跑了，現在才說：啊！我們原來有要定庭期！去年就已經判12年了，現在突然人跑了，開始裝忙說法院要定庭期，too late，人跑掉了，是這樣嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，從4月份鍾文智那個案件之後，其實司法院也都有請……"],["黃委員國昌：我老實講，鍾文智是第一個案子嗎？之前朱國榮不就跑掉了嗎？朱國榮跑掉了，法務部、司法院要不要各自回去看一看你們當初發了什麼新聞稿？朱國榮跑了，裝忙一陣子；鍾文智跑了，再裝忙一陣子；現在連徐少東都跑了，為什麼人民對司法這麼憤怒？有關係就沒關係嘛！人家後臺硬，違反反滲透法又怎麼樣！被判12年又怎麼樣！不要說沒有羈押，連電子監控都沒有！","請調查局副局長。我接到檢舉，調查局有個調查官裝密錄器在超商偷拍未成年少女的裙底，有沒有這回事？"],["吳副局長以公：有這回事，我們已經依照程序在處理了。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候發生的事情？"],["吳副局長以公：大概是兩個禮拜以前。"],["黃委員國昌：兩個禮拜以前處理到今天，處理成什麼樣子？"],["吳副局長以公：我們督察室已經有找他約談過。"],["黃委員國昌：然後呢？"],["吳副局長以公：會儘快召開考績會處理。"],["黃委員國昌：現在有停職嗎？"],["吳副局長以公：目前沒有停職。"],["黃委員國昌：目前沒有停職？"],["吳副局長以公：考績會要經過一定程序之後才會做這樣的處理。"],["黃委員國昌：可以快點開嗎？"],["吳副局長以公：會儘快，我們會儘快開。"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！做出這種令人髮指的行為，結果你們的調查員跟我檢舉，說他好好的，沒有事，連停職都沒有，這是什麼官箴啊！"],["吳副局長以公：報告委員，我們在知道這個狀況的第二天，督察處就找他約談……"],["黃委員國昌：然後呢？"],["吳副局長以公：剛剛報告過，我們……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候要開考績會？"],["吳副局長以公：我們會儘快安排開考績會。"],["黃委員國昌：儘快是多久？"],["吳副局長以公：我們已經在討論了，會找適當的時間儘快安排。"],["黃委員國昌：還要再找適當的時間？這樣的人還適合繼續當調查官嗎？請調查局儘快，不要讓大家產生錯覺，一個堂堂的調查官做這種令人髮指的事情，結果現在還好好的，什麼事都沒有。","接下來請教法務部部長。從虐童的案子大家就開始在講無期徒刑，但臺灣的無期徒刑根本是假的，沒有真的在搞無期徒刑，我們從具體案子來講，1999年，一個大黑道犯殺人罪，遭判無期徒刑，2017年假釋出獄，付保護管束，結果呢？他假釋放出來以後，做了什麼事情？把他假釋放出來以後，繼續搞買兇殺人、洗錢、詐欺、恐嚇取財，樣樣都來！第一個問題，法務部有沒有檢討當初這個假釋是怎麼做的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，事實上，假釋的這個問題，那個……"],["黃委員國昌：假釋的要件是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：假釋就是有悛悔實據……"],["黃委員國昌：然後呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：執行刑期有些是超過二分之一，有些是三分之二……"],["黃委員國昌：這樣就可以了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：無期徒刑要25年，這部分還是要有悛悔實據，要具體個案……"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得他這樣有悛悔實據嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分那時候是……"],["黃委員國昌：一個有悛悔實據的人，出獄後又買兇殺人、又洗錢、又詐欺、又恐嚇取財，你不會覺得很諷刺嗎？這個假釋認定是怎麼規定的？有悛悔實據？認定他有悛悔實據，結果出來又買兇殺人，造成更大危害，當初這個假釋是誰准的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個應該是一零幾……"],["黃委員國昌：回去了解，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個假釋應該是在十幾年前那時候的……"],["黃委員國昌：一樣嘛！2017年就放出來了，我時間有講錯嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們回去再做了解。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？一個禮拜可不可以？"],["鄭部長銘謙：兩個禮拜。"],["黃委員國昌：好，兩個禮拜，當初假釋怎麼准的，提書面報告給本委員會！為什麼人民對無期徒刑沒有信心？搞假的嘛！殺人了，判無期徒刑又怎麼樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以跟委員報告，這部分我們有提一個草案，就是對特殊重大暴力類型的犯罪，比如說殺人、殺人未遂判無期徒刑、有期徒刑逾十年這類的受刑人，我們有提修正案，是不得假釋。"],["黃委員國昌：好，這個修正案現在到哪裡？"],["鄭部長銘謙：在行政院審查中。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院還要審查多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：已經開兩次審查……"],["黃委員國昌：一樣嘛！我們又陷入了無限巡迴，當初的吹哨者保護法，法務部也是說早就提出來了，一直在行政院審查、研議，審查N年。棄保潛逃罪、不法關說罪一模一樣，法務部也是說你們早提出來了，就在行政院研議、研議N年。就有關於法務部所謂提出來的這個法案，部長，你判斷行政院還要研議多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有辦法判斷？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這我們會儘速。"],["黃委員國昌：會儘速？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["黃委員國昌：這不是到行政院了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這部分我們會……"],["黃委員國昌：這個你可以儘速，吹哨者保護法沒辦法儘速？不法關說沒辦法儘速？棄保潛逃沒辦法儘速？請部長回去轉告行政院院長卓榮泰，人民很憤怒！人民很憤怒啊！問一下卓榮泰，他還要研議多久？問一下卓榮泰，他還要研議多久？全民都在等他的答案。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這委員放心，這個我們會……"],["黃委員國昌：放心？從你們過去的實績有辦法放心嗎？從你們過去的實績有辦法放心嗎？","繼續再往下看，2012年民間司改會發動了一個「追緝惡檢」的行動，針對檢察官在問案的時候威脅、恐嚇、逼人認罪、押人取供，提出沉痛的呼籲。當初這個追緝惡檢行動的三位大將，一位林峯正，現在是不當黨產管理委員會主任委員；一位顧立雄，現在是國防部部長；一位尤伯祥，現在到憲法法庭當大法官，當初這三位代表民間司改會要出來追緝惡檢，講的話是擲地有聲。請問一下部長，你覺得當初要追緝惡檢的問題，今天還存在嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們都有通函要求，任何的機會，我們就要求要依法定程序……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你沒有回答我的問題，現在問題還存在嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是隨時注意，所謂惡檢這部分，我們就依法官法，對這部分來做一個處理……"],["黃委員國昌：做什麼處理？不要講空洞的啦！講那麼空泛。"],["鄭部長銘謙：事實上，我們有依法官法受理檢察官個案評鑑，已經有982件，每年收案217件……"],["黃委員國昌：我們看一下當初十幾年前監察院是怎麼糾正法務部的？「檢察官代表國家行使犯罪偵查、追訴之職權，以不當之言語或方式怒罵、威嚇受詢問人，不僅是個人之言行不當，更嚴重損及國家形象及司法尊嚴，也侵害受詢問人人權之保障。」十幾年前這三位民間司改會的夥伴講得擲地有聲、現在呢？現在會不會出現這樣的狀況？我希望部長回去好好地了解一下第一線實際上面的狀況，好好地了解！今天我敢在這邊公開質詢，我手上就是有實據，我很想把錄音帶放出來，好好讓全民聽一聽，我們的檢察官現在是怎麼在問案。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","下一位我們請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":258,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王義川","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","陳培瑜","吳思瑤","張啓楷","麥玉珍","翁曉玲","羅智強","王鴻薇","葉元之","林倩綺"],"page_start":183,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、內\n政部警政署署長、中央選舉委員會、數位發展部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有\n限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「民眾反應收到罷免連署簡訊，顯非商業廣告目的利用，質疑個資\n洩漏而侵害人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145202_00002"}}},{"id":"161523","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161523","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f017b8855fbad9cd2898327315c1c974558b7b28ebcc841bb4bb574d15a1fc2d705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:18:45 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結構所以我們在觀察的時候"},{"start":104.668,"end":117.008,"text":"競選前競選中跟競選之後的說法跟他的政策走向這之間我們也看到一些調整那麼我想任何執政的都要"},{"start":118.447,"end":134.72,"text":"承擔這個外交政策的後果所以這一點我們對於韓國大選可能的選舉結果密切關注那不同的情形我們會相對的有因應那最主要也是"},{"start":136.081,"end":156.594,"text":"就是在印太第一島鏈,我想不管從日本、台灣、菲律賓或者是包括韓國,這都是密切相關的所以朝鮮半島跟台海之間的情勢互相連動所以我想美國的印太司令部也是基於這個樣子在進行很多的溝通、協調"},{"start":158.755,"end":162.437,"text":"那台灣也是這裡面第一島鏈可以說是防止威權擴張我們是站在第一線韓國也是"},{"start":168.322,"end":194.55,"text":"好 謝謝部長那韓國作為我們台灣在各領域上往來算是算平凡的一個國家之一那假使真的向中國靠攏加上中共持續對台灣的這個主權地位和國際參與的這個空間來施壓那台韓之間的交流發展會不會受到什麼樣的阻礙我們要如何來深化跟韓國之間的私子關係"},{"start":195.29,"end":202.954,"text":"是 台韓之間除了地緣政治的關係很密切以外其實在經貿上的整合跟分工也日益的加強那麼其實韓國也因為過去跟中國簽了這個自由貿易協定"},{"start":213.88,"end":226.845,"text":"那造成對他們產業很大的衝擊是負面的那反而台灣現在就是說在全球佈局裡面相對來講就沒有那麼依賴中國的市場那但是在半導體供應鏈我們從競爭到"},{"start":230.626,"end":247.219,"text":"合作的關係都有不過面對美國的關稅政策台韓也是彼此是休息與共我們既競爭又合作的關係我想台韓之間除了這些地緣政治跟經貿以外在文化"},{"start":247.879,"end":259.489,"text":"的交流上特別是觀光旅遊還有這方面的關係是非常的密切所以我們還是把它當作理念相近的民主國家希望能夠大家協同一起來維護印太第一島鏈的和平穩定跟發展"},{"start":267.115,"end":284.293,"text":"現在除了美國關稅各國都在談判進行當中我們也觀察到中日韓之間往來時隔五年今年三月在首爾再次召開第三次的中日韓經貿部長級的會議"},{"start":287.296,"end":306.843,"text":"那在會議中都宣示了三國之間要深化經貿的合作尤其要加快FTA的這個談判那部長您認為這種機會成形的機會高不高那台灣如何要透過這個外交的策略及早來因應可能的這個變局"},{"start":308.573,"end":335.494,"text":"這涉及到美中抗衡就是紅色供應鏈跟民主供應鏈之間的競爭關係所以我想在現在這個以川普的這個不管關稅貿易或他的產業的政策我想這個要去進行所謂的日韓跟中國的三國的FTA的整合事實上是難度很高那另外一方面就是說"},{"start":337.011,"end":355.402,"text":"怎麼樣去面對川普政府的關稅大家也在行行區域的整合這一點我們包括CPTPP我想台灣為什麼爭取要參加那中國也是不過這個問題當然除了經濟的層面還有它地緣政治上的考量"},{"start":355.982,"end":357.363,"text":"那總之我想對於中國利用川普的這個新政合縱連橫特別是在所謂周邊國家包括東協等等那這個也當然會連帶影響到我們我們也是密切的關注跟審慎的因應"},{"start":373.956,"end":388.368,"text":"好 那這部分我們也是請外交部持續的關注包括韓國的大選還有相關的經貿談判的一個發展以妥適來調整我們相關要因應的一個外交策略那是"},{"start":389.349,"end":416.943,"text":"主席我可不可以再借一個一分鐘左右那我想再請教部長就是針對菲律賓放寬官員來台的這個交流的限制那主要對於這個經貿還有招商為目的可是這個台非之間的觀光旅遊或是人員互訪甚至是安全防衛議題上都有相關的一個密切關係那如同部長日前曾表示過新的規範將有助於我國在"},{"start":418.044,"end":435.08,"text":"總和外交下持續深化台非實質的關係那在這個總統府他們菲律賓總統府公布的新的備忘錄內台灣應該如何加強和菲律賓的各項之間的合作往來互動官員撐擊我們是不是已經有提高的現象"},{"start":435.62,"end":464.418,"text":"是 我們歡迎菲律賓政府鬆綁那就是放寬了這個兩國之間的往來的限制那這個很明顯的因為最近是供應在重組很多的台商從中國甚至從東南亞其他國家那是不是移到菲律賓這個是他們希望爭取台商去投資那地緣政治上我們都面對中國的威脅然後跟美國也都有合作的關係"},{"start":465.379,"end":489.989,"text":"可是怎麼樣加強總和外交當中除了價值外交同盟外交還有經濟外交所以我們希望推動台非經濟走廊來加強台非之間經濟的整合尤其是呂宋島那美日非之間也有一個呂宋經濟走廊的計畫那我們希望加上台非之間串聯那這個之間不管是投資貿易或者是一些科技還有"},{"start":491.65,"end":518.659,"text":"各方面的合作這個我們台北之間已經有展開諮商那也可以預期啦我們也期待除了這個有關於免簽這個也能夠他們能夠給與台灣免簽啦來促進兩國的交流以外避免雙重剋稅還有整個投資保障的這些制度能夠更完善畢竟台商去投資我們政府也是要確保他們的權益受到保障"},{"start":521.732,"end":548.251,"text":"好 謝謝部長因為我們現在台飛每年往來的遊客、旅客大概是超過46萬人那剛剛誠如部長所說的我們對於免簽的部分應該是要更加的需求希望能夠透過外交部來跟菲律賓這邊協商看能不能儘早完成免簽的部分是 作為列入優先協商的項目也樂觀的期待好 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":77,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（9時18分）謝謝主席，我們有請林部長。部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：委員早。"],["陳委員俊宇：對於推動各項國際交流相關的活動，從外交部的解凍報告來看，臺韓同屬印太民主的陣營，雙邊的實質關係還算穩健，雙方持續推動各項領域的合作交流。南韓6月3號進行總統補選，國會最大黨共同民主黨的總統候選人李在明，目前民調大幅領先其他候選人。他曾經有一個論述，他說臺海是中國和臺灣的內政問題，與韓國無關。若李在明順利當選，韓國的外交政策可能會有所轉變。我想請教部長，我們如何觀察韓國大選的動態以及主要候選人在外交政策上的走向？大選結果是否會對於區域穩定造成某種程度的影響？"],["林部長佳龍：我們外交部密切注意韓國總統大選，當然國家領導人會影響外交政策的走向，不過地緣政治也有它比較長期穩定的結構，所以我們在觀察的時候，當然競選前、競選中跟競選之後的說法跟他的政策走向，這之間我們也看到一些調整。我想任何執政者都要承擔外交政策的後果，所以這一點，我們對於韓國大選可能的選舉結果密切關注，不同的情形我們也會相對地有因應。最主要的，在印太第一島鏈，不管日本、臺灣、菲律賓或者包括韓國，都是密切相關的，朝鮮半島跟臺海之間的情勢互相連動。所以我想美國的印太司令部也是基於這樣子在進行很多的溝通協調，臺灣也是這裡面、第一島鏈，可以說防止威權擴張我們是站在第一線，韓國也是。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝部長。韓國之於臺灣在各領域上往來算是頻繁的國家之一，假使真的向中國靠攏，加上中共持續對臺灣主權地位和國際參與的空間施壓，臺韓之間的交流發展會不會受到什麼樣的阻礙？我們要如何深化跟韓國之間的實質關係？"],["林部長佳龍：臺韓之間除了地緣政治的關係很密切以外，其實在經貿上的整合跟分工也日益加強。其實韓國也因為過去跟中國簽了自由貿易協定，對他們的產業造成很大衝擊，是負面的；反而臺灣現在在全球布局裡面，相對來講就沒有那麼依賴中國的市場。但在半導體供應鏈，我們從競爭到合作的關係都有，不過面對美國的關稅政策，臺韓彼此也休戚與共，我們是既競爭又合作的關係，我想臺韓之間除了地緣政治跟經貿以外，在文化交流上，特別是觀光旅遊，這方面的關係非常密切。所以我們還是把它當作理念相近的民主國家，希望大家協同一起維護印太第一島鏈的和平穩定跟發展。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，現在除了美國關稅各國都在談判進行當中，我們也觀察到中日韓之間的往來，時隔5年，今年3月在首爾再次召開第13次中日韓經貿部長級會議，在會議中都宣示了3國之間要深化經貿合作，尤其要加快FTA的談判。部長，您認為成行的機會高不高？臺灣如何透過外交策略及早因應可能的變局？"],["林部長佳龍：這涉及到美中抗衡，就是紅色供應鏈跟民主供應鏈之間的競爭關係，所以現在以川普的不管是關稅貿易或他的產業政策，我想要去進行所謂日韓跟中國3國的FTA整合，事實上難度很高。另外一方面，怎麼樣面對川普政府的關稅，大家也在進行區域的整合，這一點包括CPTPP，我想臺灣為什麼爭取要參加，而中國也是，不過這個問題當然除了經濟層面還有地緣政治上的考量。總之，我想對於中國利用川普的新政合縱連橫，特別是在所謂周邊國家，也包括東協等等，這個當然會連帶影響到我們，我們也密切關注跟審慎因應。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，這部分我們也請外交部持續關注，包括韓國大選還有相關的經貿談判的發展，以妥適調整我們相關要因應的外交策略。"],["林部長佳龍：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：主席，我可不可以再借1分鐘左右？","我想再請教部長，針對菲律賓放寬官員來臺交流的限制，主要以經貿還有招商為目的，可是臺菲之間的觀光旅遊或人員互訪，甚至安全防衛議題上都有相關的密切關係。如同部長日前曾表示過，新的規範將有助於我國在總合外交下持續深化臺菲實質的關係。菲律賓總統府公布的新備忘錄內，臺灣應該如何加強和菲律賓之間的各項合作往來？互動官員的層級是不是已經有提高的現象？"],["林部長佳龍：是，我們歡迎菲律賓政府鬆綁，就是放寬兩國之間往來的限制，這個很明顯的，因為最近供應鏈在重組，很多臺商從中國，甚至從東南亞其他國家，是不是要移到菲律賓？這個是他們希望爭取臺商去投資。地緣政治上，我們都面對中國的威脅，跟美國也都有合作的關係，可是怎麼樣加強總合外交當中，除了價值外交、同盟外交，還有經濟外交，所以我們希望推動臺菲經濟走廊，來加強臺菲之間經濟的整合；尤其是呂宋島，美、日、菲之間也有一個呂宋經濟走廊計畫，我們希望加上臺菲之間串聯，這個之間不管是投資、貿易或者是科技，還有各方面的合作，臺菲之間已經有展開諮商，可以預期；我們也期待除了有關於免簽，他們能夠給予臺灣免簽來促進兩國的交流以外，還有避免雙重課稅、整個投資保障的制度能夠更完善，畢竟臺商去投資，我們政府也是要確保他們的權益受到保障。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝部長。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：因為現在臺菲每年往來的旅客大概超過46萬人，誠如剛剛部長所說的，我們對於免簽的部分應該是更加的需求，希望能夠透過外交部來跟菲律賓協商，看能不能儘早完成這個免簽的部分。"],["林部長佳龍：是，這會列入優先協商的項目，也樂觀的期待。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳俊宇委員的質詢。接下來由沈伯洋召委上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":368,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-15","speakers":["黃仁","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","馬文君","林楚茵","徐巧芯","賴士葆","王定宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅美玲","林憶君","王鴻薇","陳永康"],"page_start":319,"meetingDate":["2025-05-19"],"gazette_id":"1145001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145001_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，外交部主管預算凍結案等48案","agenda_id":"1145001_00014"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}