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你們終於想起國安實法很重要了到目前為止提案審查國安實法的多數都是民進黨的立委啊"},{"start":138.769,"end":165.174,"text":"一個月前在內政委員會審查國安法的時候九個版本都是民進黨委員提案的呀反滲透法都是民進黨委員提案的呀在野黨的委員這麼關心國安那真的拜託說到做到未來我們在審議任何國安實法的內容都可以理性正向的討論這才是真正的關心國安"},{"start":166.707,"end":176.42,"text":"那回到今天委員會要凍結預算我想用過去的一些數字來做說明過去立法院不論誰當家"},{"start":180.031,"end":201.685,"text":"藍綠誰當家或者是中央執政總統是藍是綠確實在立法院都曾經發生過總統府秘書長或是國安會秘書長因為另有要工而必須請假立法院的委員會這確實不論誰執政都發生過但我用數字來說話"},{"start":203.726,"end":229.048,"text":"第五届的時候邀請國安會秘書長30次他缺席了12次第六届邀請國安會秘書長出席16次會議他缺席了7次會議第七届的時候八次邀請國安會秘書長他缺席兩次第八届的時候邀了13次缺席10次這是過去"},{"start":230.56,"end":255.446,"text":"秘書長們循程序來請假立法院過去也都有准假的例子如果以解凍案我再一次用具體的例子這都是議事登載可以查的馬英九執政的時候2010年5月31號第七屆第五會期國安會的預算解凍是由葛光月副秘書長來出席"},{"start":257.372,"end":277.824,"text":"準價了而且如值如期的解凍了馬英九任內一樣是第七屆2010年的10月對不起2010年第七會期一樣是葛光月副秘書長出席解凍會議也順利解凍了主席準價了"},{"start":279.245,"end":293.481,"text":"在馬英九執政2013年10月30號第八屆第四次會議的時候也是處理國安會預算解凍當時出席代表是陸副秘書長一樣順利解凍了 主席准假了"},{"start":300.066,"end":316.797,"text":"這都是議事錄的燈仔過去馬英九當總統的時候國安會作為總統的幕僚機關國安會的預算解凍當然重要啊馬英九前總統當時應該也很重視國安會的每一筆預算的支用因為都關乎國安啊"},{"start":317.637,"end":331.903,"text":"可是呢在解凍案的時候這三次會議出席代表都是國安會的副秘書長南道藍白的委員剛剛羅志強當時應當就是馬英九的幕僚就在總統府啊"},{"start":332.898,"end":350.987,"text":"那那個時候難道派副秘書長來處理解凍案就代表國安會不在乎預算嗎馬英九前總統不在乎預算嗎不是這樣嘛所以我用具體的例子過去國安會秘書長來立法院受邀跟請假"},{"start":352.199,"end":369.683,"text":"的次數不論誰執政立法院不論誰當家循程序請假都有被准假而就扣和今天的解凍案馬英九前總統執政的時候我剛舉了三次會議都是處理國安會解凍案都是由副秘書長當時有被這樣"},{"start":374.994,"end":400.634,"text":"批評的一文不值批評的國安會不在乎預算嗎我覺得不要兩套的標準不要用這種政治的操作今天國安會的預算有三筆要解凍如果我沒有資料沒有解讀錯誤的話一個是諮詢研究業務一百萬一個是諮詢研究業務兩百萬另外一個呢是針對"},{"start":403.528,"end":415.418,"text":"徵務人員待遇十萬元就人事費的部分的解凍應當就是特別費之類的這三筆的數額大家我是希望能夠循程序好好來理性討論解凍案"},{"start":417.523,"end":440.479,"text":"那我也要我剛剛特別請示了一下我請教了一下謝謝主席昨天有接見我們總統府的副秘書長何志偉他昨天去特別跟您報告今天潘秘書長另有要工然後由他來代理預算的解凍然後您轉嫁了其實總統府預算被凍結的數額是國安會的N倍被凍結了應該是2.14億吧國安會就是這個幾百萬"},{"start":447.003,"end":458.017,"text":"可是這個2.14億的解凍預算呢我們的吳釗燮召委是同意給潘孟安秘書長請假然後由智偉副秘來代理2.14億的解凍預算但國安會的幾百萬的解凍預算呢"},{"start":462.162,"end":479.327,"text":"就我知道的昨天我們的徐副秘書長昨天下午三點鐘左右也前往了吳宗憲召委的辦公室親自就跟志偉副秘一樣親自跟召委報告說明今天吳兆憲秘書長之所以要請假的理由"},{"start":480.387,"end":496.854,"text":"但是呢我們的吳昭偉昨天仍在辦公室但他沒有接見我們的徐副秘書長換言之徐副秘書長沒有這麼lucky沒有像志偉秘書長一樣可以見到吳昭偉然後可以順利成功的請假"},{"start":497.814,"end":522.083,"text":"所以昨天呢 國安會是很重視的就跟今天總統府的秘書長一樣昨天都親自到吳昭偉的辦公室去口頭說明希望能夠准假但是昭偉准了總統府秘書長的假也見了何富密 非常謝謝可是我們的吳昭偉沒有見國安會的副秘書長讓他在那裡等"},{"start":523.22,"end":551.41,"text":"那徐富密等不到吳釗偉吳釗偉仍在辦公室但他沒有接見我不知道什麼理由不曉得在忙什麼所以造成請假不順利他們一樣非常尊重釗偉可是釗偉對於兩個秘書長的請假的處理顯然也有一些不同的考量2.14億總統府的預算被凍結是史上新高但是釗偉同意用富密來代理解凍"},{"start":552.679,"end":562.033,"text":"不代表交委就認為總統府的預算比較隨便不重要覆密來就好我相信交委一定都同樣的嚴謹的審視可是就"},{"start":565.257,"end":592.762,"text":"請假徵詢親自到您辦公室報告要請假這個事情我也不知道張偉為什麼有兩種做法所以說國安會秘書長也好總統府秘書長也好包括我們執政黨我們對於預算都非常的在乎對於總統府的預算前所未有的刪減數跟凍結數我們都希望總統府只剩下九千萬可以用了只剩下九千萬可以用了"},{"start":593.996,"end":621.947,"text":"事事那就讓總統府的預算我們可以來處理但是我還是請主席當我們尊重大家的意見 要不然人家是要在你身邊你不給人家記名不給人家聽人家的解說不給人家請假的合理理由過去不要人家叫總統的時候解凍案三次都是副秘書長就來了我很想問 劉志強現在沒在了我很想問問 羅志強過去是你的前老闆 你就在總統府"},{"start":622.867,"end":636.139,"text":"你們那時候也是赴秘書上來做解凍啊不要雙標啦那在乎預算就趕快來審查預算我認為這才是真正的在乎在乎預算我們就"},{"start":637.547,"end":654.206,"text":"尋程序來尋答如果我們的徐富密招架不住在野黨委員的垂尋他對於國安事務的涉獵沒有達到在野黨委員的要求你們要對解凍案做什麼處置我們是少數黨我們只能尊重啊"},{"start":654.847,"end":670.475,"text":"可是徐富密在國安領域的服務他的專業我相信上職巡台 職求對決就預算論預算 就國安論國安這才是合理 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主席在我們的預算凍結案我們也看到包含之前總統府包含今天的報告裡面也說這個有關於凍結案可能會對總統府的一些它的運作會產生影響等等之類的國安單位 國安會也是如此"},{"start":24.668,"end":41.002,"text":"那面對這樣子的一個預算案其實我真的覺得包含我們總統府秘書長即便公務繁忙如果說他可以來做一下報告其實在過去好多個委員會都是這樣的就是如果首長"},{"start":42.043,"end":70.525,"text":"真的有公務繁忙的時候他可以來做一個報告那有的甚至沒有接受詢答因為我知道有很多首長自己覺得自己很了不起啊他不想接受立委的詢答啊那通常呢其實不管哪一個黨派的這個召委啊其實也都會大家互相尊重但是呢我覺得今天我們處理的是總統府還有國安會兩大秘書長"},{"start":72.727,"end":82.996,"text":"連袂缺席我覺得對立法院來說其實真的真的非常不尊重尤其在解凍案我們也沒有再分黨派的啦就說我們該幫你們解凍案我們就來安排那大家也會很認真的好來讓我們的這個相關的這個會務啊能夠做一些運作能夠正常"},{"start":95.953,"end":110.313,"text":"可是問題是 你連來都不來這就代表你根本認為運作沒問題嘛所以你喊的是不是都是假的呢因為你連來都不要來所以當然啦 今天那個總統府秘書長喔"},{"start":112.082,"end":127.727,"text":"完全的缺席那昭緯說你有準價我們尊重昭緯的權責那請問一下國安會秘書長呢這已經不是第一次這是慣犯這是慣犯不敢是在發生共諜案這麼重要的事件社會各界矚目然後現在在預算案也一樣不來我真的就不理解了"},{"start":138.89,"end":153.295,"text":"那麼賴總統520昨天不是還在講嗎國安非常重要嗎然後呢會跟在野黨的主席啊來報告相關的國安情勢啊今天只是來報告一下國安的相關的預算"},{"start":154.275,"end":173.71,"text":"都不願意 那請問一下 難道今天吳釗燮是要打賴清德總統的臉嗎昨天的話是怎麼樣呢 是 只是說說好看而已嗎所以我覺得今天喔 我個人還是會強力的譴責包含總統府秘書長 還有國安會秘書長 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Kacaw等16人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會韌性及促進全民消費特別條例草案」案。\n七、本院委員何欣純等19人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。\n八、本院委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟產業及民生紓困特別條例草案」案。\n九、本院委員許宇甄等21人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等30人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案」案。\n（第六案至第十案業經各黨團簽署不復議同意書。））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-21","start_time":"2025-05-21T09:27:32+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-21T09:30:16+08:00","duration":164,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第2次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19,20],"id":"聯席會議-11-3-19,20-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":45.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.205343750000004,"end":45.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.846593750000004,"end":157.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.68971875,"end":164.96721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.209,"end":27.556,"text":"国际情势有效运用特别预算来确保产业竞争力与民生稳定本草案规划特别预算总额为4100亿与其他类似的法案相当但是为了要让人民的纳税钱能够确实花在刀口上让这笔特别的预算真正发挥效益照顾到关键产业与基层的民生本席在条文当中明确规定至少要有1300亿"},{"start":28.976,"end":45.309,"text":"是必须用于产业辅助和劳工就业的相关运算同时在通膨的压力之下呢以普发现金一万元的方式直接减轻民众的负担同时也能够促进市场经济活络"},{"start":45.99,"end":61.214,"text":"本草案的另外一个重要的特色就是强化国会的监督机制相较于其他的版本版法案的具体规定规范各项各个项目的执行方式期间基准与金额的办法"},{"start":63.496,"end":82.672,"text":"除了行政院合定之外還必須要送立法院備查那麼其次預算執行過程當中也必須要按計向立法院提出執行情形與成果概述到立法院備查但最後呢 則是要要求行政院長於特別條例實行滿一年之後每年必須要向立法院提出專案報告來確保人民能夠確實掌握預算運用的情形"},{"start":88.257,"end":95.202,"text":"那避免特別預算的淪為黑箱那這樣的國會監督的規定的其實也不是創新啊因為回顧我們過去幾部特別條例無論是前瞻基礎建設特別條例或者是因應新冠肺炎的這個相關特別條例都有要求在施行滿一定期間之後呢要向立法院提出預算執行的書面報告甚至六個月後要向行政院由行政院長要向立法院提出報告那麼這些規定"},{"start":117.759,"end":142.631,"text":"都在在顯示儘管特別預算有其特殊性急迫性但是仍然不應該要超脫法治國的原則範疇民主的監督仍然是有其必要性因此在這次的特別條例的草案也本於這個精神將國會監督法治化確保預算用的透明用的合理那中上所述本草案是一部兼顧產業發展全民福祉與國會監督的完成法案那麼我們期待"},{"start":147.313,"end":157.681,"text":"朝野攜手并进共同面对此次的经济难关为产业为民甚为台湾人民来共同谋福利请大家一起支持本题案谢谢大家"}]}},{"id":"16695","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16695","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2dc04fde1d52825d89909795dee3d32fe8a12e9ca99aa835c0fd8f58ddea5cc45d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，國家安全局預算凍結案等24案。（詳如附件））","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-21","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-21T08:32:11+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-21T11:19:00+08:00","duration":10009,"影片長度":"02:46:49","委員發言時間":"08:32:11 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決議項次26預算凍結專案報告案 密件"},{"start":1947.048,"end":1967.439,"text":"決議項次二十八及二十九預算凍結中案報告案密件三決議項次二十七預算凍結案密四決議項次兩百一十二案行政管理預算凍結百分之五中案報告案五國家安全局預算凍結等十二案降覆表第五案至第十六案第五案"},{"start":1968.099,"end":1971.721,"text":"業務費預算凍結300萬元案第6案資訊服務費預算凍結200萬元案第7案資訊服務費預算凍結200萬元案第8案物品預算凍結100萬元案第9案一般數費預算凍結100萬元案第10案設施及其機械設備擁護費預算凍結200萬元案第11案房屋建築及設備費預算凍結100萬元案第12案"},{"start":1990.811,"end":1994.413,"text":"資訊軟硬體設備費預算凍結100萬元案第13案雜項設備費預算凍結100萬元案第14案雜項設備費預算凍結300萬元案第15案教育訓練費預算凍結100萬元案第16案人事費預算凍結300萬元案宣讀完畢"},{"start":2009.329,"end":2026.042,"text":"我們現在處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議國家安全局主管預算凍結案提出書面報告後 使得凍資等發案現在書面報告已送交本會 請問各位委員對於預算解凍有無異議無異議那我們均同意凍資提報院會"},{"start":2034.875,"end":2047.4,"text":"本日預算解凍案有公開及機密的部分我們採報告先公開後秘密 詢問及處理先秘密後公開 時間並記本會委員6加2分鐘 非本會委員5分鐘10點30分發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點30分提出"},{"start":2056.103,"end":2068.312,"text":"30分之前提出11點左右處理我們現在請國安局就主管預算解凍案包含專案報告一案公開部分進行報告請蔡局長上台報告"},{"start":2081.279,"end":2092.21,"text":"好 謝謝主席那主席各位委員先進各位女士各位先生大家好那非常感謝大院安排審查本局今年度預算解凍案那本局今年度公開預算凍結總計有21案7297萬8千元那個案的書面報告都已經在4月23號還請大院來審查"},{"start":2100.838,"end":2115.495,"text":"其中列入討論事項的第212項有關食安預警匯報執行還有測盡的專題報告本局就相關的一個內容提報重點如下第一部分是有關於政府重要的食安政策在這部分"},{"start":2115.695,"end":2133.07,"text":"行政院為了來精進食品安全防護的機制在去年已經協同了政府各個部會特別是衛福部來提出五環2.0食安的政策那這部分的努力主要是希望能夠來建構國內食品追蹤的體系來加強相關食品安全管控的機制"},{"start":2135.148,"end":2151.109,"text":"第二部分是有關於國安團隊協力的查處相關實案案件的一個作為那這部分的作為大概主要的重點有以下幾點第一部分我們是來統合我們國安情報機關來收整情報來輔助政府相關單位的一個查查"},{"start":2151.65,"end":2176.939,"text":"那本局負責來統合我們國安情報團隊來掌搜食安預警的情資並且跟行政院的食安辦來建立起聯繫跟通報的窗口所以根據我們統計從2014年到今年的5月15號為止那本局透過國安團隊總計有提供666件的情資那持續的透過這些情資的通報由行政院的食安辦來轉交地方權責機關來查處那另外移送"},{"start":2179.7,"end":2197.883,"text":"檢方來偵辦的食安案件也總計有99件之多第二部分是掌握全國性的重大預警的食安的情資那食安辦在這部分正如剛剛跟各位委員所提報的已經有建立起跨部會的食安檢舉的平台那本局在這部分的通報作為主要有兩個部分"},{"start":2198.303,"end":2217.873,"text":"第一部分是針對地方區域性的食安衛生的案件由本局所統合的國安情報機關特別是調查局跟警政署等等的情資援報單位那循著行政院資安辦的檢舉的體系來進行相關案情的分享跟舉報那再透由行政院的食安辦"},{"start":2218.513,"end":2245.21,"text":"持續的來轉交地檢署或是地方縣市政府的衛生局等等的權責單位來進行後續的辦理跟查處那第二部分是針對比較全國跨域性的食安的案件那本局協同國安情報單位那把重點放在收報廠商有沒有違法添加有害的物質或是非法引進未經核准的食品進入到國內來等等重要的全國性重大食安案件的預警線索的提報跟分享"},{"start":2245.99,"end":2264.779,"text":"第三部分是有關於策進的作為那這部分我們大概有四個要項主要跟委員做摘要的報告那第一部分是相助偵辦協力來鞏固相關的事證那在這部分我們跟食安辦有建立起非常綿密的雙向互通的管道那依照剛剛所提報的"},{"start":2265.379,"end":2276.409,"text":"地方區域性案件請搜的需求來指導我們的國安情報機關全力的協查以便來完備相關實案案件細簡的要件提升查處的成效"},{"start":2277.389,"end":2304.5,"text":"第二 發掘食安源頭不法的線索這部分我們會持續的來針對原物料的產地違法的走私 廠商為異常的狀況等等來協助行政院的食安辦進行必要的溯源以及調查那來發掘不法的業者有沒有違法來添加有害的物質或是引進未經食品安全審核的食品進入到國內來來做後續相關案件的一個線索的查報"},{"start":2305.76,"end":2330.432,"text":"第三部分是有關於防範境外黑心食品的危害那這部分本局會持續的來運用國際情報合作的管道來註收境外相關食品安全案件的預警的情資那也提供給權責機關來參處以便能夠及時的來強化我們邊境輸入查驗的機制攔阻有害的食品進入到台灣危害國人的健康安全"},{"start":2331.232,"end":2359.566,"text":"第四部分是來會研各界有關於食安政策的建言那針對這個部分有關於政府部門該如何的防治如何來查處黑心食品等等的政策跟規劃那本局會持續的指導國安情報團隊來收研國內外各個專家學者的意見以及策進的作為協助我們相關的部會來檢視食安的措施相關執行的成效最後一部分是有關於結語那本局會配合"},{"start":2360.146,"end":2386.942,"text":"行政院的食安防護的一個機制來強化食品安全衛生管理的政策那這部分我們會持續的來協請各個國安情報團隊加強注收食安問題以及潛在的獄警的情資那協助行政院的食安辦來強化案件的查處提升我們國內相關食品安全防護的一個能量那以上的報告敬請各位委員可以給我們指導跟支持謝謝"},{"start":2391.423,"end":2395.506,"text":"公開報告結束我們接下來進行秘密會議我們現在進行清場請全部由前門出場參與秘密會議人員由後門通過偵測檢查後進入請議事人員清場"},{"start":3415.027,"end":3419.328,"text":"現在登記公開質詢委員開始詢答請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請蔡局長請蔡局長謝謝主席 羅委員長"},{"start":3440.234,"end":3459.489,"text":"蔡局長 早單單今年的五月份也就是五月十五 五月十六還有昨天五月二十短短一個禮拜之內就發生了這個三起的這個偷渡案件那其中很誇張的是五月十五號有一個中國男子他在抖音上面傳這個影片然後宣稱自己獨自從這個中國駕駛這個橡皮艇很多台灣海峽到這個桃園然後他又駕著這個橡皮艇再回到"},{"start":3469.516,"end":3488.168,"text":"這個中國有如入無人之境很顯然他就是要顯示我們我們我國的這個海防的這個弱點那也要看看這個台灣的這個應變能力請問我們請問局長以上的這幾個這個偷渡案件情勢有沒有顯示又是一個灰色侵擾跟認知作戰"},{"start":3489.849,"end":3504.089,"text":"對 剛剛也在跟媒體朋友做說明啦因為在520前夕我們國安局是有成立一個專案小組來監控中共不管是傳統的軍事活動海上會在洗腦 資安的侵害或是正義訊息的散佈我們有專案在觀察相關的動態"},{"start":3504.83,"end":3531.442,"text":"那在海上灰色地帶灰帶洗腦的部分確實有增加的趨勢除委員剛剛所提到有偷渡案件以外包括中共海警船也在5月15跟16號兩度連續兩天有派四艘的海警船進入到金門的限制水域去進行活動那另外在海峽中線以西也有出現二三十艘的三五鐵殼船在海峽中線以西的水域在集結活動那因為現在是比較處於中共的休餘季"},{"start":3532.102,"end":3554.741,"text":"那中共竟然會讓有那麼大的數量的三、五鐵殼船在海峽中線以襲活動那我們不能排除背後有相關的政治的動機所以針對各個不同的類案那我們也跟海巡署密切的在保持溝通聯繫必須要從各個的個案或通案來檢視我們海防有沒有相關的漏洞那這部分海巡署在禮拜一早上十點鐘已經有對外召開記者會來說明他們後續相關海防設備的建置"},{"start":3558.564,"end":3579.102,"text":"包括岸海 艦艇系統的建置都有一些期程規劃那這部分我們再來指導跟協調海巡署來如期如止的完成相關專案的推動OK 除了這些大大小小的事件其實在我們台灣最近也有發現就是有中國籍的女子呢拿著相機在這個國小的門口拍照"},{"start":3579.522,"end":3608.332,"text":"是那像這個的話看起來好像也不是那麼的單純當然這個學校跟這個家長其實也是非常的這個擔心跟恐慌那當然這個這些而且也不是第一起了好像有兩所學校都曾經發生過類似這樣子的這個事情當然我也有看到一些報導他們說可能也就是說利用這個一般的這個來自於中國的這些人呢可能到各地去做情搜"},{"start":3609.012,"end":3617.479,"text":"看看臺灣人的平常臺灣社會的作息等等甚至很有可能去拍一些基礎建設比如說也許變電所或醫院等等把這些全部資料傾收然後再傳到中國去會不會有這樣子的可能呢?"},{"start":3627.867,"end":3654.201,"text":"對 剛剛委員提到個案我們有注意到因為我們都有做一些網路的搜查那這個個案我們有跟警方做通報那警方也有去約談相關的當事人來釐清相關的一個狀況那針對委員所提到的就不同的個案它可能有不同的背景還有不同的動機那所以就本局的角度來講我們是希望能夠做一個比較全面的一個分析到底不同的個案有沒有反映出一個比較總體中共在背後操作的一個樣態"},{"start":3655.222,"end":3683.084,"text":"那不管是偷渡案或是有相關陸籍配偶在進入台灣之後的相關的一些動作我們都會逐一的來了解每個狀況背後的背景那文剛所提到的偷渡案來講判斷上來看也是會有不同的狀況有的可能不能排除他是有中共揮帶刻意的襲擾但有一個部分也某種程度反映來的這些偷渡客他都是中國社會非常底層的人士有的都是臨時工"},{"start":3683.945,"end":3707.438,"text":"那是不是也因為中共因為現在經濟比較不好而有一些偷渡客鋌而走險的狀況我們也不能夠排除所以每個個案的狀況都不太一樣那也請委員容許我們能夠有一些時間來做不同個案在經過調查分析之後能夠了解到背後一個整個比較整體的圖像有沒有威脅到我們的國安對 因為我們發現說最近這些事情這是蠻頻繁的"},{"start":3708.498,"end":3728.627,"text":"除了這些灰色的侵擾或者是這些威脅之外其實我們還看到另外一點就是說俄羅斯在侵略烏克蘭的一些情節其實也在台灣發生怎麼說呢像俄羅斯在2022年全面入侵烏克蘭的時候就是以去納粹化為名指控烏克蘭"},{"start":3730.107,"end":3756.442,"text":"政府正在實施納粹主義那來正當化他的這個軍事的這個行動那其實我們都知道烏克蘭總統澤倫斯基他自己本身是猶太人其實他的這個家族成員也曾經在這個納粹大屠殺當中上神我們想說怎麼可能他是會推動這個納粹主義可是他為了要侵略這個烏克蘭所以俄羅斯就用了這樣子的藉口"},{"start":3757.483,"end":3784.48,"text":"那無獨有偶的國民黨的主席朱立倫也是在5月7號的中常會就提到說賴總統把他比作希特勒然後說賴總統在推行這些行為在野黨的行為就好像納粹的行為等等這些言論那當然我也看到有些國民黨的委員也跟進那當然這些言論都引起了德國在台協會的抗議也引起法國"},{"start":3785.387,"end":3810.248,"text":"還有這個以色列等等國家的這個不滿喔那我們也知道說經濟學人今年初他有公佈2024年的民主指數在167個國家裡面台灣是排名第12而且在亞洲呢是亞洲之冠那在定義上來講的話我們是完全的這個民主那怎麼可能這麼自由民主的國家在朱立倫的口中就變成了一個獨裁的這個國家那更可怕的是"},{"start":3811.369,"end":3838.24,"text":"緊接著5月8號這個習近平在造訪俄羅斯的時候兩國的領袖還強調要一起消滅親納粹主義所以像國內外幾乎在同個時段所發表的這個納粹說難道這也是另外一種鋪陳那是中國要親台成讓這個中國親了台灣成為成為他的這個藉口嗎以國安局的這個情質來看的話這有沒有可疑之處"},{"start":3840.022,"end":3856.443,"text":"對 針對在俄烏戰爭之後那中共有沒有想要學習效法戰場上相關的一些作為我們確實有在做進一步的一個分析那一個部分是中共有沒有在效法俄軍的戰術戰法以及相關無人機的運用這是比較軍事層面我們在關注的面向"},{"start":3857.083,"end":3879.404,"text":"第二部分我們在關注的面向是像委員所提到的中共會不會去抄襲模仿俄國的一些政治作戰或認知作戰的操作確實在整個俄烏戰爭起始之前俄方確實有對烏克蘭的總統貼上了新納粹的標籤用這種方式來合理化俄國的軍事的行動來推翻新納粹在烏克蘭的政權"},{"start":3881.406,"end":3904.518,"text":"另一方面我們也注意到在戰爭發生之前俄國也不斷地在滲透克里米亞半島去提升克里米亞半島跟俄羅斯在經貿文化族群的融合事實上相關的做法也可以看到中共對我們的外離島也有類似的狀況透過觸統觸容來形塑出一種好像外離島跟中共在經貿或各方面的緊密結合"},{"start":3904.958,"end":3925.254,"text":"所以這樣的一個做法跟俄國當時在入侵烏克蘭之前的相關的政治作戰的操作它有一些雷同的地方那這部分我們會持續的來注意不管是在軍事面或政治面中共有沒有去學習俄國在俄烏戰場的一個運用的一些策略我們再持續的來做一些進一步的一個研討跟分析"},{"start":3925.914,"end":3947.62,"text":"因為我們真的是發現說這段時間太頻繁出現類似這樣子的狀況拿來做比較的話覺得雷同處類似的地方真的是太高了所以這部分還是要請國安單位特別注意跟留心因為這是非常重要的案例二五戰爭是我們現代戰爭非常重要的案例謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":3952.89,"end":3956.572,"text":"謝謝羅委員接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢好謝謝主席我們有請蔡局長請蔡局長"},{"start":3977.348,"end":3995.562,"text":"局長早我們這幾天看到中共許多這種搶灘的行為,偷渡那剛剛您也大概回覆了我們羅委員的部分"},{"start":3995.922,"end":4020.964,"text":"那針對這個所發生的這些偷渡事件尤其是登陸地點都挑在紅色海灘那他們最主要的目的是要收集情報還是要作為對台的這種心理作戰認知作戰的一個工具還是他們有其他的目的那另外就是剛剛那個我們有提到說他們是搭乘這種橡皮艇"},{"start":4022.225,"end":4036.971,"text":"那我也很好奇,什麼樣的橡皮艇可以橫跨這個台灣海峽這麼長的距離而且考量到這個油料的補給的相關問題那到底是橡皮艇直達,或是說中間有船隻接駁"},{"start":4038.671,"end":4055.618,"text":"這個問題我們是不是有去深入了解對這方面那個局長您的看法是怎樣這大概分兩個部分啦一個部分是動機面一個是它相關實際的作為面那動機面的部分大概不能排除各種的可能性我剛也跟羅委員在跟他做說明跟報告"},{"start":4056.258,"end":4075.28,"text":"那有可能是刻意的操作也就是挑選這些紅色的海灘比較容易登陸的地點來進行必要的一個測試那同時也透過這種比較微型的小艇因為雷達上比較不好徵收來測試我們相關海防跟應變的能力以及上漢之後我們的應處的機制這種的可能性不能排除"},{"start":4075.78,"end":4096.682,"text":"那第二部分是在具體的作為的部分那因為在具體作為的部分我們必須要去分析到他的小艇所能夠搭乘的油料他的航程航線的設計那有沒有可能能夠在相關的油料之下來達到直接到台灣的一個目的那另外一個可能性是委員提到的中間是不是有接駁的可能性"},{"start":4097.102,"end":4118.868,"text":"那這部分要透過調查比如說去收集他的船艇上有沒有其他的生物跡證除了艇上的人員以外有沒有其他人員的留下來的生物跡證那同時也要去比對他的數位的軌跡包括他的手機以及他的那個小艇有沒有外掛或懸吊因為大船外掛懸吊所留下來的痕跡"},{"start":4119.568,"end":4143.926,"text":"所以有很多的細節必須要做進一步的查證跟比對那這部分海巡署都有在做相關的一個瞭解那只要案況有比較清楚的話看能不能適時對外公布因為實際上相關案子都已經細簡在整版好 那從這幾個案子看起來我們的這個海岸巡訪跟我們這個監測的這些能力是不是有破洞"},{"start":4144.93,"end":4161.762,"text":"對 我剛剛也跟媒體朋友在說明就是說有這麼多的個案我們除了每一個個案去了解剛剛各位說明的實際的細部的狀況釐清他的動機跟他的行為以外那通案來看反沾到底我們的海防有沒有相關的一個漏洞"},{"start":4162.142,"end":4178.97,"text":"那這部分我事實上前兩天在案發之後也跟海巡署的張署長有通話做一些討論那透過反詹的方式是不是我們在暗計相關巡查人員的部署還有要加強的地方那另外在硬體設備不管是暗海的監偵設備的部分"},{"start":4180.211,"end":4194.423,"text":"是不是要持續的來加強建構那海巡署目前看起來包括在岸際的紅花線熱形象儀正不斷的在便利預算來徵購那我應該也注意到昨天也有兩位入籍人士跑到金門的二膽島去"},{"start":4195.464,"end":4212.121,"text":"那個發揮的作用就是相關的紅外線的影像有即時掌握登島的動作所以假如台灣本島也能夠建置比較完整的相關的暗防系統的話我相信減少內岸的發生應該會比較容易有一個充分的能量好 這部分再請局長持續關心"},{"start":4214.924,"end":4236.957,"text":"昨天是我們賴總統就職一周年有許多的民眾關心中共是否會有大動作但是上次局長您也提及中共在相關的演習不但啟動的速度快而且還可以把例行性的演習拼湊在一起譬如海峽雷霆的2025A結合到北部"},{"start":4238.597,"end":4263.562,"text":"這個戰區和山東縣的這個遠海長航及聯合戰備警巡拼湊在一起變成針對台灣的一個演習那不論是中共在近幾天所實施的聯合戰備的這個警巡或是周邊其他涉及的演習有可能下一步他們拼湊成的這種大型的軍演我們國安局是否已經有觀察到相關的一個意向"},{"start":4264.503,"end":4278.038,"text":"對 就上次跟委員在報告討論的時候有提到中共他們現在由訓轉眼的能量不斷地在強化也就是透過例行的訓練的活動把它整合拼湊成一個對台灣比較有針對性的"},{"start":4279.099,"end":4305.095,"text":"演訓的一個活動那這方面我們有在注意那以520之前確實這樣的狀況有在發生我剛才跟媒體朋友跟羅委員在說明的是包括海上揮帶的部分動作比較多包括海警船進入到金門的水域5月15號跟5月16號另外在5月11號跟5月18號中共也啟動他的聯合戰備警訊那這部分國防部都有對外來進行說明所以可能在520前夕我們有看到"},{"start":4305.735,"end":4326.774,"text":"跟委員報告上次的內容一樣就是透過這些日常的訓練活動來在520之前有一些密集的一些動作來進行某種程度的施壓我們再持續來注意後續這幾天的相關發展因為他去年是在5月23、24有一個大型的軍演那因為現在今天是5月21的所以"},{"start":4328.095,"end":4343.927,"text":"這幾天可能會不會有動作我也請我們國安單位可以持續關注另外在近日內也有日本的防衛省公布包括解放軍的兩棲攻擊艦還有綜合登陸艦等在台灣東部海域實施演訓結合近期的這種侵擾的行為"},{"start":4352.605,"end":4367.47,"text":"推測接下來中共重點對台的演訓項目大概會是什麼?是否會針對兩棲登陸的作戰演習?這方面我們有沒有掌握相關的情緒?有,針對剛委所提到的,日方有公布"},{"start":4368.59,"end":4393.044,"text":"中共的兩棲攻擊艦目前也有一個編隊在西太平洋的地方來活動那它也是比較屬於例行的遠海長航的一個訓練活動但可以注意到的是在5月18號的剛剛各位提到的聯合戰備警巡那中共他是有相關的反潛機跟無人機飛到西太平洋跟這一個編隊做一些演訓的互動"},{"start":4393.624,"end":4411.453,"text":"那這次跟委員所提到的,中共他現在的做法比較像是由訓轉演的這一種演習的規劃,會變成是我們關注的焦點。那委員提到兩棲登陸會不會是未來的演訓重點,那主要原因因為接下來這幾個月份就是中共兩棲部隊演訓的熱季。"},{"start":4413.254,"end":4438.152,"text":"所以他會不會再有這種訓練活動來結合到認知作戰的操作對我們形成一種軍事的外在壓力那這也是我們後續國安局跟我們情報團隊會關注的重點好 那上次局長我也跟您請教過中共的這個領導階層近期因為這個貪腐的部分被整肅那前幾天媒體也披露中共的軍委委員這個張申明"},{"start":4439.913,"end":4453.969,"text":"已經接替苗華主管政治工作部甚至不排除會兼任主任有關相關的報導當中所提及的人事變動我們國安局是不是有掌握相關的情節"},{"start":4454.89,"end":4469.905,"text":"中共軍方高層遭到這一波的整肅我們一起在關注因為原來在去年前年的整肅是集中在裝備部門那這次整肅看起來是聚焦在政工部門跟作戰部門"},{"start":4470.506,"end":4486.548,"text":"特別軍委會裡面包括副主席何偉東以及剛剛委員所提到政工部門的苗華都遭到了相關的一個調查那張聲明會被傳言是不是去接掌政工部門是因為政工部門的活動發現了有張聲明因為他是軍委的那個軍紀委"},{"start":4487.89,"end":4506.398,"text":"竟然也去出席所以才會有相關媒體的推論有沒有可能由張聲明來接掌政工部門那這部分我們會持續的來注意但整體的中共中央軍委會的結構確實出現了一些問題歷來沒有缺源那麼多的一個狀況因為除了李尚福被"},{"start":4507.859,"end":4528.457,"text":"撤職調查以外那現在又有苗華被調查然後何偉東也被調查所以軍委裡面現在只剩下四位包括習近平而四位裡面除了張又俠跟總參的劉振利有作戰背景以外接下來剩下的就是只有那個軍紀委張聲明所以整個軍委會的結構作戰降臨目前是處在高度懸缺的狀況這是我們在判斷"},{"start":4534.162,"end":4563.237,"text":"中共在短期內遇到中共高層軍方將領懸缺的狀況他可能要由嚴轉戰的可能性比較沒有那麼大我看外國的相關分析研究機構也有這樣的觀察那重點會在我剛跟委員說明的由訓轉嚴的可能性會比較多這大概是我們整體的一個判斷那這個中共的領導階層這種異動啊對我們台灣的這個中國對台灣的相關工作的規劃會不會有什麼影響"},{"start":4563.857,"end":4585.302,"text":"對,我剛剛跟委員說明的就是因為他現在作戰系統的降臨幾乎處在懸缺的狀況所以要由演轉戰一個實際的戰爭的可能性短期之內比較沒有那麼可能這大概是我們國際上普遍的判斷但是由訓轉演一般的訓練轉成針對性的演習這一部分那大概是這一陣子看到主要的重點"},{"start":4585.802,"end":4611.782,"text":"那結合到人事的變化還有整肅用這方面來說明也可以說明到他們現在重點放在這個所謂的由訓轉眼透過日常的訓練來讓解放軍不要去花那麼多心思注意到政治整肅的問題而能夠更聚焦在軍事的訓練那這部分就可以讓軍心比較不會那麼浮動這大概是我們的解讀好 謝謝局長那也請我們國安單位持續關注好 謝謝主席好 謝謝"},{"start":4616.451,"end":4631.565,"text":"接下來請沈博洋委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請有請局長謝謝請蔡局長"},{"start":4638.703,"end":4651.692,"text":"好 謝謝主席 三位很早好 議長好 這個大家今天應該都很關心這個三無傳那剛剛其實前面應該也有提到就是說最近這一個三無傳播特別多那剛剛 我剛剛局長應該也有提到就是這個澎湖移民這邊的通報說這個三無傳 這個"},{"start":4655.274,"end":4673.385,"text":"數量多當然能吃驚啦所以這個部分呢在這個騷擾之前我是想問第一件事情就是因為這是520這個昨天嘛520那這個520之前本來這個局裡面一定會有一定的預判就是說對方會做什麼樣的行動那這一次有沒有哪些是在預料範圍之外的或者說哪些在預料範圍之內的"},{"start":4674.977,"end":4694.889,"text":"對,在520前夕,國安局這邊確實有組成專案小組,針對中共對台灣的一些侵擾,那做一些重點式的一些觀察跟研判,那包括到軍事的活動,包括到海上會帶的襲擾,包括到治安的侵害,以及認知作戰、正義訊息的操作,所以我們有一個完整的通報應處的機制。"},{"start":4696.53,"end":4725.709,"text":"那針對近期的一個比較偽異常的動態海上揮帶洗腦應該是主要的重點那剛剛跟羅遠說明到在5月15號16號中共海警船各4艘進入到金門的限制水域那另外相關又有一些偷渡案件的傳出那再有海峽中線以西水域中共三輪漁船有近30艘在周邊活動所以海上揮帶洗腦看起來是這一次主要操作重點軍事上一方面是5月11號"},{"start":4726.73,"end":4742.607,"text":"以及5月18號有聯合戰備警訊那配合到他們的兩棲攻擊艦的編隊在西太平洋的活動那做一些軍事上的布施所以大概整體這一陣子我們看到比較要特別特殊來注意的重點大概有以上這幾個趨勢"},{"start":4745.009,"end":4770.161,"text":"那我這邊追問兩個問題就是說在禁限制水域這一個騷擾啊等等之類的我想應該是從他們從去年開始一直到現在有他們重要的法律戰的範圍啦那這個第一點就是說他們對於這個的騷擾跟海巡其實有很大的關係那因為最近剛好也爆出來說海巡這個內部有滲透的問題嘛有這個供點的問題那今天海巡不在我們當然不直接問這個內容但是我想問的就是說因為"},{"start":4771.229,"end":4787.271,"text":"在我的了解的狀況之下這個內部的威脅就是內部的這個滲透現在在調查當中但因為他也還沒有起訴啊什麼等等之類的他可能就是調離原來的職位那調離原來的職位的時候其實人還是在還是在裡面工作啦那這個他已經羈押了"},{"start":4788.012,"end":4808.683,"text":"他被警方羈押了對 我就說在這個之前在調查的過程當中所以就是說我們現在就是說在國安的這個法制裡面因為我們那時候有在問這個人事總署就是說在他還沒有被這個調查跟羈押因為他前面有一段在調查的時間那因為在收網的這個過程當中呢他有時候必須要決定什麼時候收網因為為了要溯源"},{"start":4809.884,"end":4836.109,"text":"那為了要溯源而延長這一個徵訊的時間的時候我們對於這樣的他的在單位上面繼續服務我們應該有什麼樣的一個處置因為現在的法令其實沒有辦法處理那我們應該如何是好對這部分在實務上就假如真的有相關的情訊那在政府機關特別是國安單位裡面有同仁涉及到資訊外洩或供帖案的時候那我們會有一個通報機制"},{"start":4836.869,"end":4857.817,"text":"假如在國防部部分我們會讓政政局或軍安總隊來查處相關的個案那一方面也許還沒有細簡來做法律的偵辦但相關人員的一個行為的動態就會進入一個收報跟掌握的一個範圍那海巡的例子也是比照這樣的方式來做處理對 因為現在就是說在因為海巡 因為在"},{"start":4858.717,"end":4880.244,"text":"國防裡面要做這件事情還有在國安裡面這個算是簡單但因為這個它發生在海巡然後最近這個騷擾又針對海巡為主那海巡在內部的這個案子它從前面的那一段時間應該要怎麼做它這個機制要直接比照這一個國安的話有可能需要一個法制相關的修正所以我們現在是在討論就是說如果我們這邊提出修正的話也希望說局裡面這邊能夠針對這個法制來做一個討論"},{"start":4883.065,"end":4906.363,"text":"因為在這部分我們局裡面應該算是政府機關裡面相關保防跟反情報作業最嚴謹的單位那也配合到疑測也就測謊的設計來不斷的驗證同仁有沒有被對岸來進行情報的滲透那這部分的保防作業的經驗我們很樂意來提供給大院的委員在討論相關立法過程當中的一個參考"},{"start":4907.163,"end":4921.577,"text":"對 因為畢竟海巡現在是 我認為是已經完全被針對了啦所以才會有這樣的一個情勢發生那這邊就會有第二個我想要再問的就是說在這個過程當中 因為剛剛前面也有提到這個什麼山東什麼這個 忘了他叫什麼山東 什麼凱哥之類的 就是說"},{"start":4922.137,"end":4934.981,"text":"他開始有這些說他有插旗啊什麼等等之類的這個剛剛有問過但我問另外一個案子就是說我們在社群上面在這個我相信這個局裡面應該有掌握就是說呢越來越多人在分享說我這個身邊出現這一個這個有異常狀態的這些中國人啊"},{"start":4939.222,"end":4966.356,"text":"然後可能他身上只有人民幣啊什麼等等之類的第一個我當然是說如果這件事情是真的那我們當然要嚴防但它也有可能是假的也就是說從頭到尾它也有可能是認知作戰的一環所以對我們來講我們要怎麼因為對於國人來講他要去判斷這件事情不容易但是對局裡面來講這應該是比較能夠有判斷的依據所以針對這樣的一個事情我們要怎麼去跟國人說明這個是不是可以局長來跟大家講一下"},{"start":4966.772,"end":4986.679,"text":"這大概涉及到兩個部分一個部分是在網路的相關的資訊我們都有在注意有提到相關的案例或民眾在網路上的留言提到了有可能共諜的活動那這部分我們只要收報到相關的情資我們會盡可能的去查證這個人到底是誰"},{"start":4987.299,"end":5010.348,"text":"那以及他可能有沒有涉及到對岸在台灣的勤工的活動這大概是第一部分那第二部分也是很謝謝委員長期的在關注有關中共相關勤工滲透的問題那我們透過這樣的公開的討論也可以讓民眾比較有相關的警覺跟知覺的意識注意一下是不是有類似的狀況案例發生在周邊"},{"start":5010.908,"end":5040.206,"text":"那透過這樣的一個網路的揭露我剛剛有提到我們會去注意那假如是不是真實的案例經過我們的過濾也大概可以比較釐清大概的一個案況因為如果這個是真實的話這個說真的這絕對是國安單位必須要啟動當然大家如果不是真實也更應該要啟動就是因為畢竟它是大量的在網路上被散播那一般人可能會有因為這樣引起恐懼那我們也不排除說這個恐懼也可能是對方想要的所以不管是哪一個結果都可能要請國安局到時候要來跟國人說明謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":5040.606,"end":5058.7,"text":"所以就是說我們現在當然是當然520這個會面臨到比較多軍事演習啦那剛有提到這個跟海巡相關的一些灰色地帶的侵擾然後還有這個內部的滲透還有這個爭議的訊息所以基本上來講這個對我們來說是一個值得注意的問題那這邊呢最後我想再問一下就是內部人員竊取機密的問題"},{"start":5059.46,"end":5073.67,"text":"因為這個不是說真的有發生只是說在這一個解凍案的時候我們那時候當然有特別提到就是Internal Threat現在變得越來越嚴重我覺得內部竊取機密比駭客攻擊變得來更多所以他已經佔了這一個2020到2022增長的44%也就是說對解放軍來講他今天直接去購買一個靈異攻擊可能很昂貴"},{"start":5082.256,"end":5105.159,"text":"那到收買一個人呢插一個USB在裡面把資料竊取出來可能容易許多啦所以我們當時有特別針對這一點那因為在這一次這個報告裡面呢只有特別提到就是在我右邊紅線畫起來的部分說會並定期辦理安全查核跟忠誠以策的行為有效的防範內部威脅的事況發生那我知道當然在這一個報告裡面可能沒有辦法講得太詳細但是"},{"start":5106.54,"end":5133.622,"text":"是不是還有更多更進一步的一些措施去防範這些內部的威脅除了我們本來的一些這個局裡面的忠誠以策的行為對 相關的情報跟保防的作為我們內部有一套機制那只要委員想要了解的話我們很願意派專人跟委員來做說因為我們做太詳細的揭露它又會變成是中共反沾來對我們進行情報滲透的一個找到相關的漏洞跟管道所以這部分也希望委員可以理解"},{"start":5134.622,"end":5151.816,"text":"對 這個中等考核的一個做法就是除了國安還有調查單位之外其實我們現在也面臨的一個狀況就是說呢有時候我們對於我們自己在立院工作假設我們的助理啊什麼等等之類的也是一個被滲透的對象嘛但這一個東西 這一個人員我們又不能夠請國安跟調查人員"},{"start":5152.556,"end":5174.114,"text":"來直接做考核這是大概中國跟俄羅斯才有辦法做這種事啦我們是民主國家沒有辦法這樣做但它又變成是一個漏洞所以它變成是一個滲透的對象所以我覺得有時候呢還有另外一個層面就是說除了局裡面雞皮疙瘩重症儀測之外某種程度比較一般性的比較簡單的就是可以比較揭露於眾的可能也要來跟立法院分享"},{"start":5174.614,"end":5194.341,"text":"然後由立法院本身自己來去做這樣的事情我覺得這可能也是重要的所以當然不時之說當然對這件事情我們可能會繼續追蹤就是局裡面自己本來做這種尤其是比較特殊的這種種種考核的一些做法但另外一種就是比較一般性的是不是能夠立法院分享這個可能也是以後我們在修法的時候有可能會去思考的方向"},{"start":5194.801,"end":5221.421,"text":"因為在政府機關的相關的安全查核主要的業管是調查局但是因為我剛剛也跟委員說明過因為局裡面這邊確實有一套機制那假如大院也要建立相關的一個規範或作業的一個流程的話我們很樂意來提供我們的經驗給大院做分享我的想法是說我們這邊應該自己要建立另外一套法制它是有別於本來公務人員的周程考核因為它畢竟是一個民意代表的機關對 有需要我們來提供意見"},{"start":5222.562,"end":5239.074,"text":"對,謝謝,那後面這個剛剛已經有問過了就是說我們還是很希望就是說這個反正我們在修法的時候會來討論就是說因為就我所知啦,這個案件已經應該也是調查一陣子然後才收網嘛,收網之後現在已經法辦但是在那一段時間就是你明明知道這個可能已經有一定的國安的問題"},{"start":5239.895,"end":5252.7,"text":"但是因為他又是公務員你又還沒有做相關的考積的時候他可能人就在那一邊那到底該如何是我覺得這也會是一個漏洞所以這個對我們來講非常的重要好 我們繼續來注意這個問題謝謝局長 謝謝主席好 謝謝沈委員的諮詢我們下面請馬文君委員來諮詢 謝謝"},{"start":5268.771,"end":5269.292,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請局長"},{"start":5276.141,"end":5281.745,"text":"許多委員大概今天都非常關心我們現在大陸由西部沿海紅色海灘偷渡入台的這個狀況到現在都沒有辦法遏止所以國安團隊其實是責無旁貸的大陸網紅打卡插旗這個已經嚴重影響到或打擊到國人對於國家安全的信心這非常嚴重所以我們剛剛提到的不管是"},{"start":5307.102,"end":5331.156,"text":"對岸的經濟狀況也好灰色洗腦也好這個都已經是現階段發生的可是我們更在乎的是我們要怎麼樣因應因為從16日桃園觀音地區又發生大陸人士以橡皮艇方式橫渡台灣海峽的偷渡事件它上岸的地點不但是國防部實彈演練的地點附近"},{"start":5331.716,"end":5349.069,"text":"而且也是被視為中共侵台最有可能的登陸的紅色海灘這些都是重點區域而且這一次比較不同的甚至是父親帶著一個未成年的小孩他都可以在偷渡的地點休息一個晚上而且還自己自動投案"},{"start":5350.37,"end":5355.872,"text":"隔日上午才投案然後我們這個案子發生這個相隔他們說才三個小時又有這個山東凱哥在社群公佈他的影片然後甚至在我們的這個風力發電桃園的這個海灘在風力發電機附近的沙灘插上五星旗幟拍"},{"start":5375.258,"end":5397.745,"text":"這個已經非常的嚴重而且顯露出我們有非常大的國安的破口我們更在乎的其實是這些因為在大陸人士從新北到桃園一線這個紅色海灘或港口偷渡入台這個已經不是一次發生我們從去年五月到今年五月其實它總共如果連那個山東凱歌"},{"start":5399.125,"end":5416.859,"text":"的事件他已經七件了我們還姑且不論其他中南部發生的事情也不論更早之前的就光是這一年其實他就有總共有七件所以局長這一次這個我們過去也質詢過很多類似這樣的事件那海巡署是說這個小艇或者橡皮艇他太小我們的岸置雷達沒有辦法偵測到"},{"start":5423.664,"end":5427.305,"text":"可是我們看到一而再再而三的發生這個就好像中共解放軍對我們國安團隊在給同一個考題一年內我們重考了六次還是不合格這是非常嚴重的問題所以我們要怎麼看待這個部分因為"},{"start":5442.989,"end":5450.333,"text":"會被列為紅色海灘的這個地點或港口其實他很容易被解放軍登岸的這個地點一再的發生這樣的事情國人我相信非常難接受那國安局評估這樣子的狀況因為這些都還是他的主動投案"},{"start":5460.538,"end":5484.581,"text":"那有沒有可能還有很多黑素就是它根本就上來了然後我們也不知道它可能就在我們的土地上面就在這裡可能逍遙自在那國安局有沒有評估投案直接進入台灣的大陸人就是沒有投案的直接進來的大概有多少那這些偷渡"},{"start":5486.465,"end":5504.951,"text":"這些偷渡的他有多少比例是派來潛伏或者測試漏洞的?國安局有沒有針對這個做一些相關的評估?對,在我們國安情報團隊來講當然海巡署負責的就是海域的安全那我們的很重要的情治來源也是透過海巡署才辦法來掌握相關中共揮帶襲擾的動態那委員事實上講的沒有錯"},{"start":5508.092,"end":5531.943,"text":"在最近這一陣子確實這樣的海上灰帶洗腦的案件是比較多那這也是尤其在520的前夕我們是本井神經在注意類似的案件那我不斷的在提醒海刑署就是說個案的調查歸個案的調查但是通案的檢討到底反戰過來我們的海岸巡防有哪些的漏洞包括到紅色海灘岸際的人員的配置跟巡查"},{"start":5532.483,"end":5545.44,"text":"那以及怎麼樣來輔佐相關的科技的設備包括委員應該也有注意到他們現在正在建置紅外線的熱顯像系統等等那可能要有一個比較完整的一個規劃才有辦法來應對中共針對性的這些動作這個部分其實是不對的"},{"start":5549.025,"end":5554.089,"text":"海巡署對媒體說要爭取相關的預算要積極建置紅外線熱像儀等暗海的這個監偵系統增加艦艇的這個能量還有提升立體徵收能力等等的設備要強化國土的防衛韌性可是海巡署爭取這個預算建置紅外線熱像儀這些其實早在105年以前就已經在規劃而且111"},{"start":5573.544,"end":5577.207,"text":"112年113年到114年都有購置而且現在也在使用過去為了提升立體徵收能力107年也買了20架的無人機使用數年以後就是從中部也好南部也好甚至在台北紅色海灘的這個部分一而再再而三的發生我們過去買的完全沒有用你已經"},{"start":5597.565,"end":5602.087,"text":"使用了這好幾年了我剛剛念的這些年其實他們都有建制啊可是我們看不到它的一點功能所以它到底買來到底做什麼而且更好笑的是這個海巡署對媒體解釋說我們無人機只能在陣風五到六級以下海向穩定的時候使用那東北季風平均風力七級根本就飛不起來這個更可笑又可惡"},{"start":5623.274,"end":5625.757,"text":"因為我們台灣周邊的海域本來我們的風力大概都是六七幾以上尤其是在這個東北季風期間那我們當時在買的時候難道都沒有考慮到這些嗎尤其現在國防部買的全部都是六幾以下的那你以後怎麼樣面對這樣的環境"},{"start":5642.478,"end":5662.766,"text":"所以不是我們沒有裝備不是我們是買了裝備沒有達到目標是不是應該對國人解釋而不是把這個又甩鍋給在野黨說沒有支持預算這不是笑話嗎那個從過去到現在熱血向於紅外線雷達還有所有的監偵系統還有像這個無人機全買了"},{"start":5667.506,"end":5681.014,"text":"所以他應該要給國人交代的是為什麼買了這些花了這麼高額的預算而沒有達到目標而且讓對岸的人一而再再而三而且只是普通人他們就可以帶著小孩都可以上岸這非常離譜局長怎麼看"},{"start":5683.195,"end":5709.279,"text":"這部分我們有跟海巡做一些了解我們也是有相關的一些疑問希望海巡來幫我們釐清那他們對於一些採購的岸際的監偵的設備聽起來初步的部署重點都在外離島因為外離島當時最有這種比較微型或小型的橡皮艇來侵擾的狀況所以他們重點放在外離島那接下來可能在本島的部分要加強部署這是我們得到的相關的資訊"},{"start":5709.659,"end":5713.144,"text":"因為在過去你們要不要看一下我們接下來這個圖局長您看一下接下來這個圖你覺得有什麼樣的問題嗎"},{"start":5730.886,"end":5745.735,"text":"這個就國安的角度啦海巡署公開說明的簡報這個部分我們可以看得到因為我剛剛也提到了無人機其實是有配置的所以它不會只有在外離島因為它不是第一次發生所以當我們的紅色海灘它經過這麼多次到現在還沒有建置那完全說不過去所以"},{"start":5751.798,"end":5759.703,"text":"第一就是我們根本麻木不忍你到現在還在認為說海軍還會認為說我們現在都還沒有建制這是一個很大的問題第二個就這個角度像這樣子的圖示局長認為合適嗎當很多我們委員在跟相關單位要資料的時候"},{"start":5775.834,"end":5785.743,"text":"通常都是說這些都是機敏資料建置在哪裡這個都不可以給那個不可以給全部都是機敏的現在我們看這個圖局長有什麼看法這個圖主要講到未來的建置他們部署的地點局長你可能仔細看一下這個部分其實他的港口位置還有他的"},{"start":5802.844,"end":5806.509,"text":"海岸線的位置其實都已經標示出來了它的相對位置你看左邊綠色的跟右邊綠色的這個部分就是我們雷達的兩個雷達站的位置它都標出來了未來要建的這個智慧型岸間監控系統"},{"start":5820.226,"end":5824.99,"text":"還有紅外線熱影相系統這個兩個未來要建置的他也把距離跟參數都把它標示出來了像這樣子的一個狀況你公開給國人這個對岸看不到嗎那動不動如果我們委員會委員要相關的資料因為你如果沒有相關的資料你怎麼知道你的預算用的對或錯你怎麼知道你用的用"},{"start":5845.285,"end":5865.956,"text":"用的結果它到底是什麼樣的成果從現在驗證大陸人士幫我們做了驗證我們過去到現在我們花了非常高的預算其實是不合格的而且一而再再而三的發生它現在不能只是怪其他的什麼灰色洗澡這個已經很久了不是現在才發生可是它居然可以在我們不斷的加強監控然後告訴國人說我們會有非常安全的這些防護"},{"start":5875.001,"end":5899.617,"text":"之下其實他一直被突破這個是國安非常嚴重的破口局長要怎麼做對 我想基本上只要有一個案例只要有一個案例讓陸客偷渡上岸那就代表在海防上還是有盡盡撤進的空間那這部分我們針對相關海防的一個疏失在跟海巡署來要求他們在相關的一個部署跟建制上還是要有一些比較具體的撤進的計畫"},{"start":5900.418,"end":5914.993,"text":"好 局長因為我們現在今天為什麼特別又語重心長的講是與其要把自己國人都每一個都當成賊還不如把現在已經發生的危險好好的把它做好管控因為它才是我們立即的危險我們"},{"start":5916.474,"end":5920.855,"text":"現在賴總統說我們的境外敵對勢力就是對岸那現在又說可以合併那你既是敵人又是合併現在大家也會覺得說這個在整體的那種不確定性上面因為大家不知道哪一個才是賴總統想要真正表達的這個部分我們可能有時間再繼續做探討就這個部分我們比較擔心的是當這一次在520的演講裡面像"},{"start":5946.364,"end":5972.219,"text":"賴總統其實他在去年演講的時候他針對內容可能在提到中華民國的時候有九次中華民國台灣有三次台灣有79次中國則有七次中華人民共和國一次可是賴總統提到台灣跟中國的次數是遠遠超過蔡英文總統兩次的就職演說那在今年都沒有說我們剛剛提到的是"},{"start":5974.001,"end":5980.346,"text":"賴總統之前在三月的時候把大陸定義為境外敵對勢力可是近期又有併購說這樣的說法這樣子我們會有點擔心甚至有一些看法會覺得說這個是不是在呼應川普總統之前說的統一與和平的說法"},{"start":5992.256,"end":5995.238,"text":"我們現在姑且因為川普總統他沒有主持沒有錯我們也不想去依測可是就這個部分我們比較擔心的是當川普總統想要見習近平而且跟他做貿易談判或者甚至更多元的合作的"},{"start":6010.645,"end":6013.286,"text":"當下台灣會不會被當成在這個中美討論的議題裡面我們成為籌碼這是我們比較擔憂的那這個部分國安團隊有什麼樣的看法或建議對 針對整體的美中關係的發展我想也跟委員說明一下結果上他們還是處在一個高度競爭的局面"},{"start":6031.115,"end":6052.953,"text":"那川普的國安團隊對於怎麼樣反制中共在區域的擴張是投入了越來越多的資源這部分我們可以再跟委員做細部的報告那至於委員剛剛所提到的在大環境之下海岸巡防這一部分的缺失怎麼樣來做更進一步的測驗跟改善我們會持續的來提醒海巡署應該要做到相關的一個反戰缺失的一個彌補"},{"start":6054.094,"end":6058.856,"text":"這個部分因為國安局畢竟是整個國安團隊的頭怎麼樣讓我們這個國安破口應該要找到一個非常有效的一個解決的方案請給我們委員會相關的這些資料把它收整以後因為我們不希望看到我們所有的報告每次都是例行性的或者在很多的媒體上面我們都可以看到的這些資料而是我們現在立即發生的國安的這些事件"},{"start":6080.623,"end":6081.984,"text":"應該要注意的國安的議題應該要給我們委員會我們全體的委員或者甚至國人更清楚的知道那我們也希望說在現在賴總統他的演講裡面的那個那個些微的"},{"start":6097.109,"end":6120.604,"text":"這些差異 不是些微非常大的這樣的差異它所會造成的影響會不會是因為受到其他外力的影響而做這些動作或決定這個也希望國安局可以密切的去提醒或者去做相對的研析委員提到重點 我們來加強注意委員 假如需要任何的情思我們來提供給委員做參考謝謝馬委員 謝謝局長"},{"start":6126.771,"end":6130.634,"text":"下面我們請陳冠廷委員質詢我們請局長"},{"start":6154.622,"end":6172.047,"text":"好 謝謝主席 陳委員長局長好 局長今天有很多位委員都提到這一個脫渡事件也好或者是說直接到我們的海岸那我今天要講的不是這一件事情而是負責的海巡的相關的這些人員"},{"start":6173.367,"end":6187.219,"text":"這個海巡的第一線指揮中心的主任他洩密受壓這個是已經上新聞那已經是確定的事情那根據新聞上面來講還是說有把海域的情資提供給中共不知道國安局這邊有沒有掌握"},{"start":6188.552,"end":6206.241,"text":"這個案子我們從一開始有掌握而且這不是這個案子我們因為已經進入司法偵辦了細節我可能不適合公開的我剛才有說我要問細節嗎我沒有要問細節我只是想要請教說目前你得到的情資這一位主任他有沒有接受安全查核終成考核"},{"start":6208.369,"end":6215.592,"text":"這部分要問海巡 因為內部的安全管考是行政單位國安局這邊主要指導統合協調是情報收集一發現這件事情之後 你知道它的危害多大多小 你知道嗎"},{"start":6226.7,"end":6255.071,"text":"這個案子我們在你要統整嘛你要統整情報所以你必須要有這些情報的收集嘛那你有沒有跟海巡署說第一點它是什麼時候開始有類似這樣的洩密的情資然後第二個就是說他們自己內部的管考管核資機制有沒有做好嘛就是它上次中等考試有過還是沒有過這個也是他們內部的事情那國安局要幹嘛反正都是他們的事情啦就大家管好自己就好了然後把情資按時的傳上國安局就好了嗎是這樣嗎"},{"start":6255.931,"end":6273.81,"text":"因為這個案子在一開始假如進入正辦過程當中他可能就已經有細檢有檢察官來做指揮的正辦那我們這邊大概有的是一開始的情資有這樣的疑慮的時候就必須要進行通報那由夜館單位海巡署來做必要的觀察個案的重點觀察"},{"start":6274.651,"end":6288.994,"text":"那但是指揮班的部分是有檢調單位的進行那之前我在跟法務部來諮詢的時候有提到這個就是說現在全國行政機構至少都有政風室那我之前問國安局說國安局是不是要"},{"start":6289.835,"end":6305.504,"text":"研擬出一個更完整跨部會的這個安全考核的這個制度那後來聽起來大概是沒有辦法了因為畢竟只有法務部才有辦法有各個地方都有這個正風勢那但是我還是希望說因為法務部現在講的"},{"start":6306.565,"end":6326.823,"text":"我不太確定就是說廉政署這邊政風是不是要執行這樣子的以後的政風然後來去做統一的最基本的標準查核然後讓調查局去做這個調查然後去這個搜索等等的這是要分開來那可能以後還是要法務部來去做統整但是我還是特別才想講因為"},{"start":6328.044,"end":6347.397,"text":"國安局要統整的這個機關蠻多的從軍情到這個海巡到等等所以我還是希望說有一定的掌握啦就是說至少剛才有幾位委員說那個海域上面無人機等等的這些我們至少要知道說它到底是洩漏一些什麼東西然後它到底對方掌握到什麼程度"},{"start":6347.857,"end":6361.811,"text":"那第二個部分我想請教一下中科院的講到無人機我們來講到一下中科院那最近有媒體來去這個新聞上面有提到說我們的無人機關鍵模組用中國晶片而且是2018年"},{"start":6363.212,"end":6384.373,"text":"國防部下令不准向新加坡的公司採購之後那中科院還有繼續使用這個紅色供應鏈那其中他們有提到說在這個無人機計畫裡面的台版的死神無人機的騰雲機種有使用由北京這個的這個豐科科技生產的無線通訊模組這是真的還是假的"},{"start":6385.767,"end":6411.515,"text":"對 有通報到類似的這種科技安全的案例的話那大概假如我們都會跟那個國防部這邊來做聯繫啦那需要我們提供一些相關的情資或是在科技安全上面的一些要注意的事項我們提供給國防部業管來做參考不是 應該是國防部要提供給你做參考就是到底有沒有這個情資嘛因為現在他們是說有採購但是"},{"start":6413.775,"end":6441.68,"text":"是用來研究之用在研發階段經安全審查獲得的成品沒有用在量產的階段那你們要掌握一下說到底是這個說法是真這是澄清的新聞稿可是有時候澄清的新聞稿是真的是假的我自己也不太確認嘛所以國安局至少要知道說他們到底有沒有使用在我們現在的無人機因為現在在新聞上面他們是說爆料者是說有使用這些中國的零件載到我們的騰雲機種"},{"start":6443.28,"end":6457.331,"text":"這是他的說法但是我們中科院的說法是說拿來研究沒有使用在這個我們的無人機的機種只是拿來做研究使用那局長你到底哪一個可不可以方便來跟我們講一下應該是中科院講的是正確的吧"},{"start":6457.939,"end":6476.756,"text":"對 因為我們初步的了解在國防部也收集到相關資訊之後他們是有把那一型的無人機停用來做一個全面的了解跟檢測這個很重要就是說我們有去了解他們有做這樣的動作國安局這邊要確認嘛因為各個機關機關本位有些時候可能"},{"start":6477.657,"end":6498.292,"text":"也怕說這個事情不斷延燒那可能他的新聞稿可能會避重就輕都有可能但是國安局自己要知道說這樣的晶片到底有沒有使用在我們的騰雲金種這只是打個比方那他可能在使用在其他金種都有可能但是國安局或者是所屬的上層機構上層的機關必須要嚴格的去管控要求這件事情好不好這個"},{"start":6500.133,"end":6528.487,"text":"是蠻大的事情我們還提醒國防部在相關的一些規格有沒有一些涉入的料件那要特別再加強查查因為現在不僅僅是人出現的問題現在連包含你說這種通訊相關的這些通訊機通訊產品進入我們的無人機的系統這是人事實地誤好像很多東西都已經被滲透這個要全面來檢討一下好不好因為時間不再等人然後最後一個"},{"start":6529.842,"end":6548.156,"text":"這個就是比較戰略性的問題,有點擔心,有一個中國學者,王信學者他是用主張啦,用非和平的方式來統一台灣,這個會變成未來的中共的這個主旋律嗎?還是他現在還是,想請局長來跟我們分享一下"},{"start":6548.696,"end":6577.499,"text":"就中共官方的說法還有文件他們在現階段處理兩岸的政策所有的主軸還是在反讀促統促容跟反對外力的介入那基本的基調上還是沒有說去用這種所謂強調非和平方式的統一那因為他們在三個主軸裡面有所謂的促統促容那你只要再過度的強調無力的使用的話又會跟他們所謂的促統促容產生某種程度的漢格跟矛盾"},{"start":6577.859,"end":6599.838,"text":"所以這部分他們的一個政策的基調的論述我們會在...所以這個中國社會科學院的這個台灣研究所他的這個文章應該是只是單一事件不會是主旋律可能甚至是...官方沒有這樣的所以這個可能只是單一學者的一個說法所以目前中共的主旋律還是一致沒有到..."},{"start":6600.979,"end":6622.201,"text":"所以他的無力犯台的這個可能性沒有我們就是不是他們的主旋律現在還是用他們過去的那個一國兩制之類的對他們基調基本上還是92共識一國兩制就是還是老樣子就對了他們包括在進了兩會以及相關的內部會議的文件的討論在涉台的部分大概還是這個基調"},{"start":6623.442,"end":6645.775,"text":"所以主旋律不變但是我們的方式還是一樣就是對抗他們的論述因為如果他們現在開始用另外一個論述的話當然我們的論述方式也要做調整如果他們還是用這個一國兩制然後什麼和平統一我們就還是一樣用不可以扭曲德國的2758等等的方式"},{"start":6646.596,"end":6671.137,"text":"我跟委員報告一下的是雖然他的主旋律還是在所謂的一中的原則和平統一但是他們剛剛跟很多委員在討論過程當中可以注意到不管是在軍事的恫嚇揮帶的襲擾資安的侵害或認知作戰的操作這一部分他們是不斷的在強化那這是我們要在特別注意的地方說到這個認知作戰的操作我前幾天在質詢"},{"start":6672.498,"end":6700.776,"text":"顧部長的時候有特別談到說不要讓印巴的這個輿論操作成中國的武器是強的印度是無能的結果他們竟然可以把我的這個質詢用透過抖音的方式透過剪輯的方式那把顧立雄部長好像沒有辦法完整的回應的方式去剪輯出來來去影響輿論所以這件事情我還是希望說在各個不同的場域都要想辦法避免這樣子的我覺得抖音的這種"},{"start":6702.217,"end":6720.343,"text":"審查等等的機制我們可能還是要做一個加強因為特別是有敵對勢力的軟體那他可能透過這樣的方式來去散播來降低國人的信心增加敵對政權的自信等等這個我們還是要做列管"},{"start":6721.903,"end":6747.088,"text":"對 認知作戰的操作我們繼續來注意那至於印巴的衝突確實在這一波的認知作戰操作巴基斯坦是比較主動積極的因為事實上在印度也有發動很多的無人機空襲行動對於巴基斯坦所採用的中國製的紅旗酒的防禦系統是造成非常嚴重的打擊的但這部分我們看媒體上並沒有那麼多的討論所以可以看到那個認知作戰操作巴基斯坦這一次是比較積極操作我們應該要引你為鑑好 謝謝"},{"start":6755.88,"end":6759.163,"text":"謝謝接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席 辛苦了 邀請蔡局長請蔡局長"},{"start":6777.222,"end":6795.982,"text":"好謝謝主席林委員早呃局長我要問的問題可能跟前面的委員都不太一樣喔但是我的這個題目呢我想國安局應該已經都知道了那就是從今年的呃兩個禮拜開始之後其實有非常多立法院的委員都在關心那就是藝文滲透是不是成為另外一個破口"},{"start":6796.522,"end":6821.896,"text":"那本席過去當然非常關注的就是中國透過像剛剛冠尼委員講到的不論是抖音或者是像柔媒體的所謂中央廚房那麼在之前我質詢黃副局長的時候他也有講到在台灣大概有40個左右的這種所謂在地協力者的媒體那麼中國的所謂滲透或者是入侵可以說是方方面面啦那麼"},{"start":6823.397,"end":6842.404,"text":"我不知道局長是不是你們已經開始在關注這個問題那就是如果說現在隨著這些藝文展演國外的藝文展演來到台灣之後那麼中國透過中資的公司拿到這些藝文展演的代理權然後帶了人進來台灣之後那麼他因為"},{"start":6846.906,"end":6855.916,"text":"他是出資者所以變成是他設定了所有的遊戲規則包括今年二月在高雄的這個韓星Rand的演唱會不能拿台灣的小物的字樣然後出現"},{"start":6862.844,"end":6889.167,"text":"又或者是說在6月7號即將舉行的這個泰國明星的這個所謂見面會那麼他有中國的背景的公司我想問一下局長因為這其實已經有好幾個委員在關注了那麼主管機關當然是文化部那麼如果說文化部目前他們有沒有跟國安局這裡你們已經有一個小組來進行研擬或研究"},{"start":6890.148,"end":6907.328,"text":"這部分跟委員說明一下就原則上初期來講認為說這種比較像是商業的非法的活動所以現在我們開始的是從這個傳統角度以外從國安的角度來看這種所謂的非法的商業活動背後有沒有一些國安的疑慮"},{"start":6908.709,"end":6933.401,"text":"你們會不會認為這是一個樣態必須要關注因為已經有不少委員在提醒我們這件事所以有在注意那也跟警政署這邊有建立一個協調的機制針對這一類案件怎麼樣來查處那一般可以查處運用的法規可能包括到文化產業創意發展法還有洗錢防治法這一類的法規規定讓警政署相關單位在查處過程當中有一個相關的法源依據來做處理這部分我們來注意"},{"start":6935.182,"end":6951.449,"text":"我要討論的是說像這種有中資的背景的當然他可能就馬上涉及兩岸人民關係條例的33之一相關的這個所謂跟黨政軍背景合作的背景不可以合作的部分但是本席要指出的是另外一個我非常關注的問題是"},{"start":6952.91,"end":6974.698,"text":"在以這個泰星來的這個所謂粉絲見面會啦這樣的活動當中台灣是5月10號才售票可是中國的黃牛在4月30號它就已經開賣了所以顯然在這個中資背景的時候它另闢了一個管道把票切給了中國我要提醒的是說因為這樣的一場見面會到底有多少張票"},{"start":6979.383,"end":6998.059,"text":"局長不知道 我不知道 粉絲不知道 但是主辦單位知道而因為我們現在要抓黃牛 所以我們需要實名制所以請你看一下 這個在中國境內的主辦單位他所定下來的是說 你要提供觀影人的姓名 電話 還有觀影人的護照"},{"start":7004.011,"end":7019.225,"text":"那這個有兩個層面第一個層面是要入境台灣的人他要想辦法把他帶進來但是目前我們用這個所謂看演唱會不是一個他們可以入境的方式這個有一個第一個問題是是不是有所謂的集團性造假訪台這是一個問題第二個是就像我剛剛講的有很多粉絲擔心的是票切出去了我買不到票"},{"start":7029.674,"end":7044.196,"text":"所以我就要跟這一個中國的黃牛買票那這個時候問題就來了是不是我們台灣人民的姓名電話還有就是我們的相關的個資就落到中國的手上"},{"start":7045.097,"end":7071.108,"text":"那這是兩個層面的問題而這個已經是形同資安破口這跟前面剛剛我們講的它是商業展演商業展演它有很多的這種所謂不妨礙民間交流的問題但是本席現在要點出的就是第一當它在海外拿到了這樣的所謂演唱會之後多少票你不知道它賣了多少錢你也不知道那麼"},{"start":7072.649,"end":7087.662,"text":"到時候他會帶多少人進來或者是我們多少的個資留到他的手上這會是一個問題所以我想要提醒如果真的是這樣他不只是還有個資喔還有包括信用卡的相關資料因為他刷卡他會需要戶頭那麼這個時候我想問局長他算不算是一個國安一律的活動而且很有可能出現一個大禍口"},{"start":7099.331,"end":7115.782,"text":"針對這個問題 謝委員的提醒也很有系統的把問題給呈現出來那大概分為幾個部分那第一個部分是因為這一些展演的活動它很多的承包的這些公關公司它有的是境外的公司那它切票以及相關購票的運作都是在網路上運作"},{"start":7117.103,"end":7144.945,"text":"所以在執法上確實有它的困難存在但是我們要注意的大概有兩個的重點第二重點是當他透過這些售票行為而籌組一些所謂的追星團入境台灣過程當中我們會提醒移民署來注意有沒有一些相關可能為異常的人士也藉由這樣的機會入境台灣以所謂的文化或演藝交流的名義入境台灣從事相關的活動這是我們國安團隊第一個要注意的重點那第二"},{"start":7145.425,"end":7161.139,"text":"要注意的重點是委員剛剛有很清楚的指出來有些委員利用這個機會來揭露讓我們的消費者也可以注意到在網路上跟這些境外的公關或行銷公司來訂票的過程當中個人的個資或信用卡的資料會不會外洩外流"},{"start":7161.88,"end":7179.631,"text":"而在中共的中國大陸這些廠商甚至再把你的資料外流而造成了很多網路或電信詐騙把你當成是詐騙的對象所以這部分可能現階段比較能夠做的是透過這樣的揭露跟公開的討論讓民眾可以有這方面的知覺有警覺意識來避免第二種狀況的發生"},{"start":7180.612,"end":7201.32,"text":"好 因為本席也是最新人喔所以我也知道其實如果有時候到海外去聽演唱會你也必須透過海外的這種所謂售票或訂票系統那麼當然這個只能自己小心不要誤觸一些就像局長所講的這種詐騙陷阱或是釣魚陷阱而去輸入了個人的信用卡或相關的資訊但是本席要提醒的是說這個是在台灣內部的一個"},{"start":7204.761,"end":7209.405,"text":"所謂展演行為商業行為但是你會發現主辦單位疑似把票已經切到境外他用的不是台灣境內的售票系統我站在維護台灣的權益的部分那就是我剛剛講的這個票到底是多少你不知道那麼他如果這種所謂的交易行為都在海外發生了"},{"start":7227.119,"end":7243.193,"text":"那是不是表示我們連抽到稅都抽不到我們連營業稅都抽不到如果今天這個售票行為是用台灣的售票系統那麼至少我們可以對於這個公司我們可以刻意營業稅所以我也請局長跟相關的財經部會包括財政部相關來研擬就是這個有沒有逃漏稅的問題"},{"start":7251.3,"end":7257.924,"text":"因為等於是說大量的票而且價格很高它發生在海外那這個就是境外那同樣在台灣展演的活動為什麼在海外消費我們連國庫一毛錢都抽不到那這個部分也是本席提醒的就是如果就國安的問題包括資料的揭露的問題我們無法避免這樣的消費行為但是我們至少可以要求這種"},{"start":7275.936,"end":7288.345,"text":"交易的行為要發生在台灣而不是一個境外的那我們連稅都抽不到那這也是一個本席可以提醒也許國安單位可以跟財政跟金融相關的單位這個有關於國庫署等等來討論這個方向也許它也是一個我們來杜絕台灣人民因為要去聽國外的追星的演唱會而必須把個資或者是所有的交易行為留在境外的部分"},{"start":7301.36,"end":7316.513,"text":"好這部分我們謝謝委員的提醒我們來跟相關部會來研議看法律上怎麼來處理那另外法務部這邊也可以來切入的角度是有沒有涉及到洗錢防治這部分的問題我們一起整併來跟相關部會做討論謝謝謝謝接下來請徐巧欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":7331.383,"end":7333.868,"text":"謝謝主席我們請局長請蔡局長"},{"start":7339.653,"end":7367.914,"text":"好 謝謝主席 薛委員早早安那其實這一陣子以來我們看到很多起事件都是中國大陸這邊有一些人他可能橡皮艇或者是說他可能各式各樣的方式然後就可以隨隨便便的進到台灣裡面了甚至我今天舉個例子來給大家看那就是去年九月的時候有一個理性的男子經過一個中國籍綽號叫做小陳的男子介紹"},{"start":7368.615,"end":7376.837,"text":"他呢 從福建 福州某一個地方 到漁船出海然後經過台灣海峽 然後呢 在台灣海峽某一個地方的坦尚尼亞的貨輪裡面然後呢 再進入高雄港 然後呢 再來呢 這個李姓男子呢他就與綽號威廉的我國皇姓男子 這個另案偵辦當中他下船之後呢 就到了旗津某一家民宿裡面"},{"start":7393.3,"end":7422.131,"text":"然後玩了老半天呢在11月13號玩了兩個月以後他主動前往這個內政部移民署高雄港的國境事務大隊自首那類似的情況很多而且呢他們都是自首以後才被發現的那請問局長這是不是一個很大的國安漏洞也代表我們在移民署也好在海巡也好我們在很多的相關防範上面其實做得非常不充足的"},{"start":7422.671,"end":7443.609,"text":"那作為國安局的局長你覺得應該要怎麼樣能夠彌補上這個漏洞因為類似的案子已經很多次了都不是我們發現的都是他們自己上岸玩一玩之後自己去自首的這個已經不只是灰色地帶而已了這根本就是對我們在海巡在邊界相關的一個羞辱那請問"},{"start":7444.77,"end":7459.976,"text":"一直以來發生這樣的事情 國安局有沒有任何的舉措能夠去防止這樣子的一個行為或者跟其他的單位交互的去討論過有 就 只要有任何一個這樣的案例的發生都代表我們有漏洞 有破口的存在"},{"start":7460.416,"end":7479.86,"text":"那當然每個案例所凸顯的狀況不太一樣那大概會涉及到的除了有海防、暗巡以及移民入境或是港口的管理以外那我們國安團隊這邊也會針對不同的個案來通報各個單位看怎麼樣從個案當中來做比較深谈個案的檢討你們有算過這個從賴總統算案以來有幾件這樣子類似的樣態嗎"},{"start":7489.283,"end":7504.013,"text":"數字可不可以現在告訴我就是中國大陸的人民然後用任何的方式然後就自己跑到台灣來了我們這邊我們同仁剛剛提供給我書面資料跟委員報告一下那去年的累案大概有23件23件23個人啊"},{"start":7507.932,"end":7517.66,"text":"喔 抱歉 去年是有20件 那今年有13件喔 所以23加13 哇 那有36個人喔那已經可以包一台遊覽車啦20加13那也差不多啊 已經可以包一台遊覽車啦"},{"start":7523.024,"end":7539.334,"text":"一台遊覽車大概40個人左右嘛已經多到人數可以包一台遊覽車了然後呢我們到現在還繼續讓這樣子的事情發生而且他們都是用非常簡單的方式就來了耶什麼橡皮艇的啊自拍的啊然後呢留下記錄的啊好像從大陸這邊過來隨隨便便的然後呢就上岸了然後呢我們到現在還持續的在增加當中對吧"},{"start":7547.159,"end":7567.831,"text":"你剛說前年是幾個案子 今年是幾個案子去年有20個案子 今年目前有13個案子你看 現在才5月而已嘛 就13個案子了所以很有可能到 如果我們沒有做任何的修正的話很有可能到年底的時候 我們今年的數量還會超過去年那我希望不要 因為這是一個很嚴重的國安問題甚至對中華民國相關的這個 國安保護的一個羞辱"},{"start":7572.794,"end":7582.221,"text":"所以我希望在這一點上面國安局可以協調其他單位共同改進而且要有很具體的做法然後讓很實際的讓這個數字下降好嗎那再來就是前幾天發生了非常不幸的車禍我們經常在國安局的這個報告裡面談到認知作戰但認知作戰其實有好幾種可能有這個中國大陸的這個樣態"},{"start":7595.891,"end":7617.704,"text":"但是呢在台灣方面如果我們台灣自己人針對重大的事件進行認知作戰的話或者是說傳遞假訊息的話其實這也會演變成一個國安危機就是說國安危機它不見得只有中國大陸的認知作戰在台灣裡面釋放一些假訊息的時候它其實也跟國安有關係我舉個例子來講"},{"start":7619.065,"end":7641.803,"text":"前幾天的這個車禍你可以看到在很多地方就寫他這樣講他說連續好幾天有人開車爆衝人群跟店家然後他說小心是中國內應在搞事因為520就職一周年在期所以桃園觀音上岸的五毛家人跟車子爆衝都很詭異然後覺得是中國在搞"},{"start":7642.904,"end":7670.683,"text":"然後呢 不要說我陰謀論 霸團賬號事件五月天跟四雙雲的木馬進來的敵人有多少然後呢 放學時間已經被中國人直播的一清二楚然後就有汽車衝撞然後呢 對 才在學區裡面直播的馬上出事說懷疑也其實不為過可能就是共產黨的隔空操作解放軍可能真的滲入了在搞事進行當中中國沒有什麼不敢做的 應該要用最大的惡意詳查"},{"start":7671.283,"end":7696.562,"text":"所以有非常多的在這個Threads上面裡面寫說三峽的這個車禍案件是中國內應在搞事那就國安體系所掌握的情資這個三峽車禍跟中國或是共諜是有關係的嗎目前案子還在偵辦那因為當事人現在好像還在醫院急救對嘛 但是我覺得有你們現在目前的了解就是他跟所謂的共諜或是中共的滲透有關嗎"},{"start":7697.743,"end":7720.214,"text":"目前還要再調查才知道實際的動機那你們會去針對這個部分還要做國安調查目前沒有通報到這個層面來網路上有這樣的討論我們會來注意所以我的意思是說如果他本身並不是這個樣子但是在網路上不斷傳這些假訊息的話他其實是加強了兩岸之間的不信任以及這個敵意的螺旋"},{"start":7720.774,"end":7739.649,"text":"那520的時候 也不是520就是我們其實賴清德總統也講說那兩岸之間的和平很重要嘛那當然有關於中國大陸如果對台灣進行滲透或認知作戰的話那我們一定是反對到底的可是另一方面來說如果有人他甚至他也有可能是反串的我不知道"},{"start":7740.129,"end":7758.918,"text":"然後開始在網路上傳遞類似這樣子的一個仇恨訊息但不是事實的時候那是不是他也是某一種程度的認知作戰他應該也要被做相對應的管理跟查核呢對 因為這個案子它畢竟引起社會非常高度的關注所以在網路上自然會有各種不同的角度去做討論那我們會再來注意一下"},{"start":7761.599,"end":7776.645,"text":"因為蠻集中的講這樣子的內容蠻集中我今天只是舉幾個案例而已但蠻集中做這個討論然後引導一個風向說呢這個三峽的車禍呢是因為中國大陸的滲透而導致的但如果事實不是這樣的話讓類似的假訊息在網路上不斷轉傳它其實會變成是兩岸之間更加的惡意"},{"start":7783.528,"end":7786.331,"text":"因為這個中國大陸他也會看他就覺得說這個事情跟我們沒有關係那為什麼會有類似這樣的假訊息那我們這裡卻不斷的傳這個假訊息也讓我們的民眾誤認或誤以為或誤導說這個東西這樣子這麼多人命的命案竟然是中國大陸來發動的"},{"start":7801.826,"end":7820.74,"text":"那這個也對於我國來說我坦白講啦如果真的是像他們這樣講的是中共是中共的內應然後來撞傷跟撞死我們的台灣人民的話那這是非常非常天大大條的事情但目前其實就你來說就您來說還有就我們目前看到的情況是沒有的"},{"start":7821.44,"end":7826.764,"text":"所以目前看起來這個並沒有發生這樣的事還是要由警方跟檢調來解釋相關的案情可是目前我們在官方上面不管是新聞媒體的報導或者是我們相關的包含是交通部教育部然後還有衛福部還有今天國安局都沒有提到說目前有這個所謂的說三峽的這個開車撞人的這個肇事者他是中國人或是他不是啊"},{"start":7849.36,"end":7876.121,"text":"那不是我跟你講網路上一大堆人問說是不是中國駕駛然後或者是說他是因為被滲透了所以他要故意撞人都沒有這樣子就我們官方或是新聞都沒有這樣的評論或是沒有這樣的討論可是在網路上面卻有非常多的假消息所以說假消息它不是只針對中國大陸的認知作戰我們在台灣裡面各種錯假訊息也應該要一併的討論跟一併的來處理而不是單方面的那最後我要問一個問題就是說"},{"start":7878.055,"end":7881.978,"text":"有關於這個520賴清德總統的談話那他全篇共提及台灣38次美國7次也有談到菲律賓印度越南泰國跟加拿大其他的國家那完全沒有提到這個中國或是中共也沒有提到中華民國那我想請問一下局長因為"},{"start":7898.032,"end":7903.276,"text":"過去因為兩岸關係對於台灣來說其實都非常重要過去在520的演說裡面很多的總統們好多大多都會提到對於兩岸關係的想法那不管是正面的或是負面的都會有那請問一下在國安的這個部分他這次沒有提到這個中國或是中共那是不是國安局針對中共近期的軍事跟政治動向那是有什麼樣的一個原因你覺得這個賴總統他沒有去提到"},{"start":7928.272,"end":7942.768,"text":"這個部分 對不起 我就國安局長的立場跟身份 我不適合去評論國家領導人的談話內容 該講什麼不該講什麼 但是在法案體系裡面因為總統在今年的二月跟三月都有召開專案 國安協議在宣示兩岸的政策"},{"start":7944.529,"end":7969.085,"text":"這個我知道啊所以我的意思只是說在520的這一天那國安局所掌握的情況是不是兩岸之間有什麼樣的風險跟危險以至於說在談話裡面那可能會缺乏了關於兩岸的這個部分然後中國中共的相關的宣示的部分因為你剛講的之前的說法跟520的正式的演說它的這個層級跟高度其實是不一樣的"},{"start":7970.747,"end":7999.327,"text":"對 這一部分總統的談話稿的內容該講什麼不該講什麼時間點釋放什麼訊息我想這還是要尊重府方對 我說尊重府方嘛這個跟你沒有關係但我要問的是我們國安所掌握的情況那是否有兩岸情勢越演越烈或者是美中之間的談判因為冷卻下來所以呢我們有導致於說我們不希望引起衝突那所以在520的重要談話裡面刻意的不提到中國跟中共這樣子"},{"start":8000.207,"end":8027.627,"text":"兩岸情勢的部分剛剛有跟其他委員在說明因為我們這邊在五五零之前確實國安局有一個機制在觀察跟監控中共的軍事動態揮帶的治安的跟假訊息的操作那目前來講看到這一段的時間點主要是透過例行的聯合戰備警巡跟海警在周邊進門周邊海域的活動以及剛剛委員也特別關切到這些偷渡案件的操作看起來比較像是這一波的主要的操作重點"},{"start":8027.807,"end":8041.444,"text":"OK 好 那這個未來這個偷渡案件再麻煩這個我們國安局要協同其他單位要去做一個改善我們不希望看到今年年底之後的數字是超過去年的謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來請王地宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":8062.658,"end":8091.547,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩局長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 萬文局長辛苦我先就國安簡報這件事情請教我們國安局當然這是總統在他的高度要進行的業務那裡面要報告的內容不管是經由國安會或者國安局情報的收集我想你們業務上應該是有相關我第一個請教就是說"},{"start":8093.393,"end":8123.213,"text":"就我們過去以案例來講有進行國安簡報的制度大概是從第十任總統陳水扁總統開始當時他是以美國有類似的制度他是參考美國的制度對於總統候選人因為你們都即將成為國家元首不管你開的政見甚至於你的維安保護也提升到總統規格所以只僅限總統候選人我印象那時候副總統也沒有嘛副總統候選人沒有嘛"},{"start":8123.673,"end":8137.433,"text":"但總統候選人可以帶副總統候選人過來但是邀請的對象第十屆陳水扁總統那時候任內是邀請各政黨的總統候選人來進行所謂的國安情勢的簡報沒有錯嘛"},{"start":8139.789,"end":8167.051,"text":"對 當時是這樣 但我們去年在執行的過程當中有的候選人是有帶副總統過來的那後續我們就變成一個建立起來一個慣例成為總統副總統候選人之後我們在總統競選期間會邀請候選人的團隊總統跟副總統候選人來聽取國安簡報對國家的方向有一個了解這個是對我認為這個不分黨派這個是穩定該做的所以馬政府時候也有做吧"},{"start":8167.751,"end":8172.556,"text":"都有都有做嘛所以以往的慣例是這個那根據的法律依據是什麼這個部分當然我知道委員比較關切的重點是說檢報的內容要是涉密的話該怎麼辦我看到我們國家機密保護法第14條就是說它有一些"},{"start":8189.491,"end":8196.798,"text":"我在上位者上級機關有核定權責人員他可以書面授權或核准違憲現在我們三軍統帥決定邀請總統副總統候選人來聽取國安簡報簡報內容應該有牽涉機密所以"},{"start":8206.788,"end":8223.826,"text":"過去總統副總統在執行的時候那個候選人在執行的時候他是根據什麼法律依據授權可以進行這個檢報就我們國安局負責的部分是針對總統副總統候選人的一個檢報的設計那也是依照相關的法律必須要由我本人批核那什麼法律"},{"start":8225.147,"end":8249.443,"text":"國家機密保護法或是我們的相關機密的作業的原則由我本人來確定檢報的內容要和密我和密的這個單位我針對特定對象予以解密嘛那聽取機密的人員他原來沒有這個機密等級那因為和密單位可能是總統可能是國安局長因為和密單位予以解密了他可以來聽取這個機密了"},{"start":8251.064,"end":8269.526,"text":"那接下來這個涉密的內容的保護跟人員的管制你們怎麼處理對我們一般在核密之後在檢報過程當中一開始就會提醒聽取檢報的人要注意到你接下來所聽到的檢報內容有涉密那也提醒他們相關的涉密內容他們要不要簽切結書"},{"start":8270.808,"end":8281.221,"text":"當時我記得並沒有特別簽切結書但是在會場上有特別做這樣的提醒會宣示嘛我們在國防外交委員會立委進來我們要聽取機密我們要簽一張切結書"},{"start":8283.53,"end":8311.663,"text":"對那其實說根據來源也是國家經貿保護法但我們一般我跟委員說明的是我們當時的總統候選人的簡報我們當時核密的等級是密等一般的公務沒有到絕對機密沒有到絕對機密及機密所以內容內容是到密對密而已沒有到極機密跟絕對機密在我們的作業當時沒有涉及到國家的等級的機密未來會不會牽涉到這個這要看到時候內容坦白講要根據國安簡報的內容對是我們就是普通件"},{"start":8312.663,"end":8329.053,"text":"機密 絕對機密 那個極機密跟絕對機密嘛所以在以往的作為一道密碼 當然還是機密嘛那我的意思說 根據法律我告訴你 這是一個我覺得民主社會的特殊狀態我可以接受 也就是說 這個人還沒有當選總統副總統"},{"start":8330.851,"end":8356.379,"text":"他其實跟我們在場每一個人一樣我們都是老百姓嘛對每個人都一樣因為他即將要選總統而且登記成為候選人了所以我們才會提供國安等級的保護因為他是候選人不管他會被當選我都要假設他會當選所以縱使他是一般平民百姓沒有揭秘的等級我還是要對他揭露嘛這點是在保密"},{"start":8357.279,"end":8377.806,"text":"跟民主選舉活動的一個平衡點可是我現在要請教你就是那經由核密單位我解除機密對他揭露了哪怕只是密等那他也有保密的義務跟權利嘛所以你剛才講的以往是沒有簽借結書但是有告知他法律的責任嘛那接下來他要不要接受管制"},{"start":8379.416,"end":8405.237,"text":"管制的部分委員指的是出境還是指的是根據這個機密如果是某甲接觸到是公務人員他要接受什麼管制那我現在只是因為我成為總統候選人我看到了我要不要接受一樣的管制好像沒有一般沒有因為跟委員說明一下教委員談的是出境的管制的話目前大概是兩岸人民關係條例跟機保法有提到涉密的公務人員他出境是要受到管制他為什麼可以豁免不用接受管制"},{"start":8406.634,"end":8431.768,"text":"這部分要有一個法律的依據法律的依據是要管制欸我摸到這個機密法律的依據是要管制我不能因為他地位尊崇他選過總統不然就被誰啊他可以我說在民主的運作OK可以我為什麼現在一直要跟你研究這一塊因為接下來是政黨領袖他其實對一般人來講就是尋常百姓我因為民主活動的"},{"start":8434.589,"end":8455.85,"text":"這個狀態我尊重你代表的是主要政黨我尊重你是總統副總統候選人我可以接受但他一旦和密單位對他揭露機密了他碰到了他看到了他知道了那對機密的保護對機密的管制人員的管制應該要有一套做法那個沒有禮遇啊也沒有豁免啊可是過去好像就豁免了齁"},{"start":8456.471,"end":8481.699,"text":"沒有 這兩個部分 一個我剛剛在跟委員說明的是出境的部分出境的管制的部分依照計法法或兩岸人民關係條例 涉密的公務員是被管制的那委員剛所提到的這個類型 一般的民間人士只是因為他有政治的地位 那來聽的話這部分出境管制沒有 但是他在我們提醒告知的這是一般涉密的內容他只要有揭露 還是違法啦對 他是違法 法律他沒有豁免 這部分沒有"},{"start":8482.739,"end":8489.252,"text":"法律沒有豁免但是在管制的行政作為上好像有豁免有啦"},{"start":8490.256,"end":8515.543,"text":"你們沒有管制啊就是沒有法律的依據來做那你能確保因為現在好我們現在進到現在賴先生總統說指示國安團隊你是在裡面嘛指示國安團隊向在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報一樣只到密嗎不會到機密絕對機密到時候看各部會提報的內容是什麼因為不一定一旦他碰到絕對機密一旦他碰到極機密"},{"start":8517.386,"end":8537.661,"text":"我可以接受在民主的運作當中對於總統副總統候選人對於主要在黨的領袖揭露國家的重大機密這個是民主社會的常態但民主社會還有另外一個常態就是法律的規範應該一視同仁他沒有豁免權就是沒有豁免權那請問接下來對他們要不要進行相關的管制"},{"start":8538.271,"end":8563.475,"text":"沒有 管制的部分我覺得還是要有更明確的法律依據你才有辦法來進行相關出入境的管制他接觸機密 絕對機密或極機密他接觸了嘛對阿針對這樣的機密我們本來就有一些管制作為阿是啊 但他假如違反我們的管制的話那就違法了但委員假如說是出入境的管制的話目前的法律依據對於這一類的人沒有去管制他出入境的所以現在這一塊是空白"},{"start":8563.835,"end":8578.131,"text":"這一塊沒有法律依據所以他聽完了還是可以來來去去但是違法的話我們一來可以透過我現在只要把狀態弄清楚我弄清楚也不要避免再當主席一聽個機密兩年不能三年不能出國"},{"start":8578.732,"end":8594.315,"text":"我們要把它弄清楚來嘛所以我現在是詢問的角度因為這一塊在民主的運作當中是要累積成慣例的像總統副總統候選人經過陳水扁總統馬英九總統OK他就變一個慣例他沒有法制化也變成一個慣例反而以後哪一任總統"},{"start":8595.256,"end":8622.885,"text":"不對總統副總統候選人揭露這樣的機密的話反而他會被社會質疑說為什麼你不做這就是慣例在法律上它有一定的意義可是現在是在野黨主席第一次嘛史上首次嘛所以我們就要請教了所謂向在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報你怎麼去define定義在野黨主席我們在野黨很多耶是指在國會有席次的還是任何在野黨"},{"start":8623.745,"end":8642.794,"text":"對 這部分可能要由府方來做相關的規劃跟安排所以定義還沒有出來那委員一直在意跟關切是在於說聽完之後有沒有一些管制沒有 我不只在意這個 定義很重要因為我不是講一般的那種完全沒有選舉的政黨我們在政黨補助裡面有規定拿了1.5%的選票會怎麼樣3%的選票會怎麼樣 5%的選票會怎麼樣嘛"},{"start":8647.037,"end":8670.439,"text":"參與不分區的分配 領取政黨補助金 我們都有那個門檻所以我作為一個 比方說任何一個在野黨主席都會認為說 我會黨啊 對不對台灣有很多政黨啊 有賭博最大黨 什麼亂七八糟 很多什麼 有的有沒有有的我的意思是說 對在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報那個定義要出來 是指在國會有席次 這是一種定義"},{"start":8671.48,"end":8700.623,"text":"或者有領取我們國家的一票五十塊錢的政黨補助金的叫做在野黨主席這個要想清楚那我們現在走的是哪個方向根本報告一下這個部分我們在內部會議有討論但是對外的發布我覺得要遵從府方有府方來對外整理說明所以大概就是這兩種方向已經有討論了這兩種方向府方來對外說明我剛才講就大概這兩大方向一種是有國會席次的一種是有領取政黨補助的"},{"start":8701.827,"end":8713.664,"text":"大概就這兩個方向你不會有第三個方向啊或者有議員席次的也可以這由府方來發布那委員的一些研判我尊重因為這是國安情勢的"},{"start":8715.742,"end":8733.055,"text":"我一個三軍統帥認為需要把在野黨找來做國安情勢的簡報一定有重要的事情那這重要的事情誰應該參與應該要對國家有益嘛因為這是例外狀況嘛那未來可能變常態啊那所以例外狀況第一次就很重要我到底是對誰簡報"},{"start":8736.605,"end":8758.056,"text":"對誰簡報以中央全國層次來講領取政黨補助金這是一個門檻就是說他其實有達到一定的民意支持度的在全國性或者是以國會有席次那這是兩個那如果以民意代表有席次有一席議員或者全國有兩席議員那個要不要放進去這我尊重你們的判斷但應該是這個思路方向在考慮"},{"start":8758.716,"end":8779.178,"text":"對 跟委員說明一下內部會議委員剛剛關切的問題我們都已經有討論那正式對外的發布跟說明由府方來說明那我跟委員剛剛在討論意見交流過程當中我是在分享國安局過去的做法不管是在和密以及和密之後人員的管制我們一般的經驗上實務上的意見我最後其實要問的問題是"},{"start":8780.299,"end":8807.231,"text":"國安局的專業判斷認為這樣的做法未來要不要法制化還是因為因應每一個時期的特殊狀況尊重元首依照局勢的判斷是法制化比如說什麼樣的在野黨在什麼樣的條件下他可以來進行國安檢報檢報之後他去負擔什麼樣的法律責任是保密的法律責任或者要接受人員的管制這個法制化嘛另外一種就是我"},{"start":8808.051,"end":8827.771,"text":"這是國家元首的特權Privilege由國家元首決定什麼樣的局勢對誰做什麼樣的揭露而揭露管制就根據這樣的揭露內容你們有什麼樣的建議我想基本上是這樣要不要啟動這樣的機制應該要尊重國家元首總統的權責這是一個政治決定第二部分是在內部討論的過程當中以國安局來講"},{"start":8828.832,"end":8849.102,"text":"相關的一些法制面規範面要注意的事情我們會提供在內部會議討論的時候來做一些意見的交換跟決定在一起由府方那你認為該不該法制化你沒有告訴我答案啊但我內部的會議我沒有辦法轉述對有沒有法制化的打算都有討論我沒有在剛剛委員提到問題大概都有稍微都有討論嘛都有討論那也應該有結論嘛"},{"start":8851.892,"end":8870.593,"text":"你不能替他宣布嘛 那什麼時候會宣布 府方會適時揭露我先講本席的立場 我認為國家是大家的 我們政黨黨派立場也許不一樣但是如果面對國家需要團結一致因應的時候 我個人是贊成情報共享 建立制度"},{"start":8871.354,"end":8891.048,"text":"那在沒有制度下依循往例基於國家機密國家利益該保護的保護該負責的負責該負法律責任的法律責任該管制的管制那這個部分如果未有明確之規範透過慣例的建立是一種第二種透過法治化也是一種那因為局勢常常訊息萬變"},{"start":8893.17,"end":8909.15,"text":"給總統因為這是總統的專屬權利讓總統有特殊情況的判斷來進行相關的簡報我也可以接受但是那個範圍有一些東西還是要講清楚否則現任元首謹守分際你如果遇到一個元首不謹守分際找來他自己的"},{"start":8910.371,"end":8928.57,"text":"這個朋友一起來分享的時候那該怎麼辦你懂我意思嗎就是說這個事情是國家的首例我覺得可以讓他往正向發展所以我才花了一點時間跟你討論過去的往歷那我們希望盡速看到府方揭露相關的因應作為謝謝局長尊重委員意見也謝謝委員提醒謝謝"},{"start":8932.012,"end":8946.437,"text":"接下來請侯孟楷委員 侯孟楷 侯孟楷委員不在請鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在請鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在請林益君委員上台質詢謝謝主席 我請蔡局長 請蔡局長"},{"start":8966.337,"end":8966.963,"text":"謝謝主席 任委員長"},{"start":8968.379,"end":8989.672,"text":"早安 局長進入今天質詢的主題之前我還是先提醒一下局長繼上一次你們發揮了這個超人力一字不漏的抄自己之前的新聞稿作為專報的報告之後今天我也發現你們送來這個報告似乎又有點粗暴了在這次行政院送到立法院正式的關係文件的整個文書上面的解凍報告上面有說明討論事項第14案和82頁中針對你們預算編列的槍擊偵測的系統的頁間"},{"start":8998.758,"end":9003.882,"text":"攝影套件的兩套的預算節奏案裡面的報告裡面出現的時光倒流了你們報告裡面是寫109年到100年之間起案延提需求把時間寫成109到100那請問局長正確時間到底是從哪一年開始的還有怎麼國安局是那麼刑事嚴謹的國安單位怎麼會連"},{"start":9021.295,"end":9028.139,"text":"送來立法院的預算解凍這麼重要的正式關係的文書都會有這樣不夠嚴謹的報告上面的說明還出現了時光倒流這個錯誤那請局長說明一下各位很抱歉應該實際的年份應該是109年到110年"},{"start":9038.959,"end":9043.66,"text":"所以這個可能還要改進 因為不是第一次這樣這是比較不對的地方我們來檢討接下來還有一個問題就是說是一個比較離譜的共諜事件就是前天的話5月19號就在賴清德總統就職滿一週年的前夕爆出了海巡署的高官主任莊中輝的共諜的事件但這個事件發生讓我聯想到這幾天有兩起的偷渡的案件"},{"start":9066.224,"end":9069.387,"text":"包括5月17號中國籍的宋姓父子搭乘橡皮艇那個偷渡來台還有一個是5月18號自稱山東凱歌的陸籍攔子發布了整個影片是從15日從福建駕駛動力的橡皮艇成功登陸了桃園海岸而且還插上了五星旗那當然"},{"start":9087.382,"end":9092.705,"text":"據我了解這個偷渡的事件表面上是應該是海巡署的責任但是好像跟你們沒關係但是跟你們國安局到底有沒有關係呢而且國家安全就是國安局的責任嘛國安局主要的任務應該是復席台海兩岸的情報工作這樣然後因為根據過去幾次我們"},{"start":9106.212,"end":9116.434,"text":"中國的偷渡客偷渡的案件中你們國安局的報告都有提到說可能是對岸的灰色地帶整個的作為所以這次抓到的這位莊中輝主任這個共諜他是負責的是金馬盆地區的情務編排那局長你認為抓到這一個他把海巡情務分配的狀況的洩露給對岸的機率這樣的高不高"},{"start":9132.717,"end":9157.262,"text":"還有跟這些偷渡案件有沒有關聯還有有沒有可能是這些偷渡客實際上他已經掌握了整個海巡的情惡狀況知道要怎麼樣避開海巡署的巡邏呢對就個案的部分因為已經在司法偵辦了那所以他們相關的一個調查的細節我可能一來不知道我也不方便在這個場合來做說明個案的部分司法偵辦的個案部分"},{"start":9158.462,"end":9185.656,"text":"那第二部分在海域安全的部分確實夜館的機關是海巡署但是海巡署是我們國安情報機關裡面四通情報機關所以依照我們的國家情報工作法跟國安局組織法我們是可以指導統合跟協調還有支援包括海巡署在內的情報機關跟四通情報機關相關的國安情報的收演那所以對於海域安全的部分我們國安局這邊會比較關注的是整體的中共相關襲擾的樣態"},{"start":9187.777,"end":9206.967,"text":"那個案調查部分 剛剛跟文說明了會由司法檢調來釐清相關的一個案情不過因為一再的發生這些個案那到底我們海防有沒有凸顯一些漏洞那這些漏洞後續海巡署該怎麼樣來彌補那我們這幾天也是很密集的跟海巡署在討論也是希望他們能夠很確實的來檢討每個個案所凸顯的漏洞"},{"start":9211.289,"end":9228.141,"text":"那來針對海防的漏洞來做必要的一個彌補那這部分我們會持續的來指導協調海巡署來加強相關的策進的作為好那我請教再請教局長一下就是這兩三年來不斷的都發生這些中國的偷渡來台的台灣的案件"},{"start":9228.641,"end":9232.082,"text":"那台灣海峽就號稱黑水溝嘛因為海象非常的惡劣常有船難然後所以我想請教一下就是國安局是否有很認真的看待對岸的偷渡的這個事件因為他們有時候說是來自中國的投奔自由的偷渡客怎麼那麼容易就會穿越了整個台灣海峽而且穿過我國的海域就好像入無人之境一樣那局長你認為這是中共有系統的行動呢"},{"start":9256.79,"end":9262.351,"text":"還是分散的就像你剛才說是不是分散個案還是有其他的結論還是說你覺得你不排除中共的灰色地帶的這個整個的行動局長還有剛才那個海巡組還要統計說截至5月17號開始已經累計大約有偷渡案大概5起共有38個人了有那麼多人來偷渡的話那我想請教局長就是國安局的情報分析能力可以得出一個最基本的原因嗎"},{"start":9282.515,"end":9307.644,"text":"那基本上我們比較關切是在於動機的部分那每一個這些偷渡案的動機可能都不一樣所以必須要進去做比較深入的釐清那包括他的航程包括他的油料以及他航行的路徑到底合不合理那也要收集他的手機相關的數位跡證的檢視看手機的記錄裡面的一個定位那是不是如他所供述的那個過程"},{"start":9308.504,"end":9336.579,"text":"那第二部分可能也會去注意到的是他的那個小艇那他的小艇到底是不是直接從對岸航行到台灣的岸際還是是中間有任何的船舶的接駁那也會透過那個小艇各種生物跡證的檢測來還原那相關偷渡犯他們的供詞到底正確或不正確那另外可能也會注意到的是他們這種小艇假如要用大船放下來的話一般都還是會有一個懸吊或"},{"start":9337.279,"end":9359.031,"text":"相關的勾類似抓放的一個痕跡那這也會去透過那個小艇的檢測來看到底真的是如供述的直接過來的還是有經過大船的投放他才在某個海峽中間點來切入到台灣的相關的海域所以這部分每個個案都要做一些還原跟釐清好 謝謝"},{"start":9361.972,"end":9384.043,"text":"那我再問一個問題就是比較近的問題就是局長你說收集外國的情報也是國安局的工作嘛那你最近針對了川普曾經說過要買下格林蘭島還有加拿大可能會變成美國的第51州這樣的結果格林蘭島和加拿大的領導人都怎麼說的你知道嗎"},{"start":9385.864,"end":9400.545,"text":"對,就從政策的角度來看可以從川普總統相關的談話那了解到他對於美國國土安全他非常的重視那因為他所關注的議題除了格林蘭那可能是敵對"},{"start":9402.727,"end":9425.732,"text":"國家發射導彈的一個主要的路徑那假如格陵蘭能夠跟美國比較親近的話美國在當地的軍事部署或飛彈攔截的設施雷達設施會比較好設置那另外他也提到了巴拉馬運河他還認為所有權應該要做重新的調整跟管理那從這些案例看起來從政策面的解讀可以知道的是美國川普政府"},{"start":9426.292,"end":9448.002,"text":"對於美國的本土安全似乎有高度的關注那這部分也比較符合他長期在講美國優先美國第一的這個概念所衍生出來的一些主張那當然他的一些相關的講法那有時候我們還要再去看他實際的政策作為是不是有類似比較具體的搭配那這我們還要再來繼續的注意"},{"start":9449.082,"end":9454.068,"text":"好 但是格陵南島和加拿大的領導人其實他們都說他們這些是非賣品所以我的問題就是說那現在總統在520發表演講的時候就有提到兩岸應該要用對話取代整個對抗"},{"start":9464.519,"end":9482.764,"text":"但是他前兩天在受訪的時候我又引用他的說法就是他說中國是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司那如果說你要併我的公司那你要提條件對吧這樣但是這樣的說法的時候其實真的引起了台灣人民的不安所以本席非常的擔心"},{"start":9483.684,"end":9487.765,"text":"因為這樣說法會不會就是向中國傳達了台灣主權可以出售的這整個訊息呢還有面對美國總統川普說要別人國家的主權併購這些領導人是不是都堅定的說我們主權其實是非賣品但是結果我們最愛講抗中保台的總統賴清德竟然提出了併購主權的說法那局長這是賴總統想要賣台了嗎還是真正的中共同路人"},{"start":9512.23,"end":9523.42,"text":"還有包括我們現在抓到的總統府的共諜都是賴總統派的跟中共對接的特使呢那我想說局長你是身為兩岸情報的單位首長那我想說你認為這樣的情況我剛才所說的你認為賴總統這樣的說法和比喻你覺得是恰當還是不恰當對我想我身為國安局長我不適合去評論國家引導人的每一句的談話那但是從這一段的訪談我自己我個人我也有去了解一下注意一下他的用語"},{"start":9540.174,"end":9567.774,"text":"那我個人在過程當中我看到的重點是賴總統特別在提醒那中共長期都有併吞台灣的意圖那不管他併吞台灣的方法或是方案是什麼都應該要尊重中華民國存在的事實以及台灣民意的意向那台灣是主權跟民主的國家那這個過程當中應該要注意到我們主權的地位跟民意的走向那這大概是我從談話內容當中我個人所看到的重點"},{"start":9569.195,"end":9581.659,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來請蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜蔡易瑜委員不在請陳培瑜委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席那有請公安局請蔡局長"},{"start":9597.335,"end":9622.36,"text":"好 謝謝主席 周委員好好 局長我今天來跟你討論我認為可能有國安的議題那您聽聽看那再告訴我你們現在目前可能聽起來的狀況之前在2022年有一個直攔高雄鋼鐵人港資案那當時行政機關處理得很好那第一時間做了相關的處理但是我要提醒相關國安的滲透可能不是只有在過往我們認為那些領域當中目前我們看到有一個案子是這樣子的"},{"start":9623.2,"end":9632.667,"text":"那事實上中國這幾年其實透過收購海外的球隊這件事情其實我相信您是知道的對嗎好那有沒有可能台灣有相關的案例有的有一個台灣體育運動大學在台中在2024年他們把以及足球聯賽的參賽資格"},{"start":9643.193,"end":9663.463,"text":"轉讓給峰會體育有限公司好那這個案子呢從教育部那邊我們辦公室已經積極在處理了我們認為這件事情是不妥的那不妥的原因那教育部這邊當然有教育部該做的事情高教師後來實地去調查認為不管是用印合作內容檢視法尊盤點都有可能涉及到港資或中資所以"},{"start":9663.843,"end":9678.617,"text":"但是因為之前沒有相關的機制所以他們後續怎麼檢討教育部那邊我們辦公室會持續追蹤但是我要跟您討論的是下一件事情我們來看下一頁我們認為大學自治不能當成是一個藉口可是我們來看相關的權利轉讓文件呢"},{"start":9679.938,"end":9705.027,"text":"其實是很有問題那目前他們這個案子是這樣他光是球隊教練一個人簽名就把台體大數十年聯賽的參賽資格拱手送人我們來看一下他送給了哪一家公司呢就是我剛跟您說的峰會體育有限公司如果我們到經濟部的網站上去查可能看不出他有中資的問題但是峰會體育有限公司的這個負責人他其實也是另外一家公司叫做等一下"},{"start":9709.298,"end":9733.578,"text":"我把那個公司的名字抓出來 等我一下這個馮世文他本人又是美麥公司的董事兼發言人而這個美麥公司的前身是好玩家而這個好玩家集團就跟港資跟公資會牽扯上關係我講到這麼多就是目前因為球隊內部的管控機制跟台體大的管控機制不良導致於他們把這個球隊的參賽資格轉讓出去了而且是簽約賣出去了"},{"start":9737.681,"end":9763.181,"text":"賣出去之後我們發現他背後可能是港資跟中資我不知道聽到目前為止你覺得有什麼意義對我們會有在注意的是對岸透過一些兩岸交流來做一些統戰滲透的活動是那對委員在提醒到對岸有沒有涉入到我們國內的一些球隊或是大學的一些球隊的活動那甚至用資金來介入相關的經營管理權這部分我們要再來注意"},{"start":9764.081,"end":9788.973,"text":"這個案子我們到時候會相關的資料會跟你們討論可是我認為這應該不會只是個案它可能會有陸續其他通案的問題因為我要提醒陸委會的是在國外的俱樂部參賽權利的收購跟轉讓都是所謂的商業行為可是在中華足協的足球聯賽它是FIFA亞足聯系統賽事參賽的球隊都具有代表台灣參加國際賽事的可能性"},{"start":9789.966,"end":9818.986,"text":"意思就是如同我剛剛說的如果他背後是中資或港資但是他把這個台灣球隊買下來他是代表台灣去參加國際賽事那不只是出賽那個當下的狀況而是他在整個球隊營運的過程當中他會如何進行所謂滲透的行為而這件事情難道對台灣的國安沒有影響嗎請你想像一下在一個國際的舞台上一個背後的老闆是中資或港資他所持有的球隊他如何面對中國相關的要求跟壓力"},{"start":9819.887,"end":9830.479,"text":"更不要講其他因為運動而產生的其他問題那我要提醒的是其實不是只有足球包含排球在台灣由單項協會所主辦的企業聯賽他們也都有機會代表台灣去參加國際體育組織所主辦的亞洲賽事"},{"start":9839.048,"end":9860.026,"text":"他穿上了台灣制服代表台灣出賽但是他背後卻是港資跟中資這件事情我要積極拜託陸委會有沒有可能去關注這個事情然後作為你們日後重要業務推廣跟情報資料收集的方向之一好一般中資港資的活動我們傳統上比較關注的重點是在有沒有一些竊密攬財是"},{"start":9862.248,"end":9880.166,"text":"據高科技的產業的發展來簽名攬財那我們提醒的是有沒有這些中資港資在台灣涉入到相關球隊活動以外還去影響到台灣的國際賽事的參賽權的安排或主辦權的安排那這部分我們再來瞭解一下包括跟陸委會或教育部這邊來看相關"},{"start":9881.687,"end":9902.324,"text":"我要跟您提供另外一個訊息這也是我們從地方上收集到的訊息那當然都還有待查證啦就是這個峰會公司它之所以有可能要買這個球隊是因為台中在之前的新聞就說要蓋一個足球園區那這個足球園區落成之後它需要相關的經營團隊進來那如果我在台中毆有一支球隊我就有權利去進行所謂的"},{"start":9903.364,"end":9927.535,"text":"參與投標來經營這個所謂的足球園區所以我們很擔心他買這個球隊不是只是為了買這個球隊可能也不是只是為了影響所謂的國際參賽權他背後還有什麼動機我們其實打上很大的問號所以要拜託國安局這邊積極的那我們辦公室會再把更多的資料跟你們討論好不好好 謝謝委員謝謝我們這個案例 謝謝好 我們之後一起努力喔這個問題我不會只有質詢完就結束了好不好好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝"},{"start":9933.459,"end":9962.863,"text":"已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有陳永康委員黃仁委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請以書面於兩週內答覆委員另約定期限者從期鎖定以上若有涉及機密的部分請確實依相關保密規定辦理"},{"start":9965.731,"end":9980.958,"text":"接下來進行討論事項討論事項第四項處理國安局主管預算凍結提出專案報告並經同意後時的動之案國安局剛才已作出專案報告請問各位委員是否同意解凍同意同意動之提報院會"},{"start":9988.295,"end":10010.775,"text":"討論事項第五項處理國安局主管預算凍結案中提出書面報告並經同意後使得凍之共十二案國安局將書面報告送交本會請問各位委員是否同意解凍同意均同意凍之提報院會那本日會議到此結束散會謝謝"}]}},{"id":"161750","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161750","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db5a9c6ca3821bb706020ad028569f7f2f25d7a793ed122532fbc405ee1c6225db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"12:36:16 - 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則是要要求行政院長於特別條例實行滿一年之後每年必須要向立法院提出專案報告來確保人民能夠確實掌握預算運用的情形"},{"start":121.673,"end":128.594,"text":"那避免特別預算呢淪為黑箱那這樣的國會監督的規定呢其實也不是創新啊因為回顧我們過去幾部特別條例無論是前瞻基礎建設特別條例或者是因應新冠肺炎的這個相關特別條例都有要求在施行滿一定期間之後呢要向立法院提出預算執行的書面報告甚至六個月後要向行政院由行政院長要向立法院提出報告那麼這些規定"},{"start":151.178,"end":157.407,"text":"都在在顯示儘管特別預算有其特殊性急迫性但是仍然不應該要超脫法治國的原則範疇民主的監督仍然是有其必要性因此在這次的特別條例的草案也本於"},{"start":166.4,"end":167.34,"text":"请大家一起支持本题案谢谢大家"},{"start":192.128,"end":208.945,"text":"好谢谢现在进行审查因应国际情势强化经济社会及国土安全任性特别条例草案进行广泛讨论那在场委员需不需要进行广泛讨论如果不需进行广泛讨论我们就进入主条讨论好不好"}]}},{"id":"16693","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16693","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302ddc04fde1d52825d89ad9f551ce5fa921fa12e9ca99aa835c049ec2ed80b9b5d325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查及處理114年度中央政府總預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計48案。\n二、審查及處理114年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計20案。\n三、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預算凍結案計8案。\n【5月21日及22日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-21","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-21T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-21T13:55:00+08:00","duration":19485,"影片長度":"05:24:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 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交通及運輸設備凍結十分之一案三處理一百一四年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計十三案數位發展部含一至六檢証該部一決議一凍結二十分之一案二決議二一般事務費凍結十分之一案"},{"start":2469.051,"end":2483.076,"text":"三決議三國外旅費凍結五分之一案四決議六一般行政凍結十分之一案五決議七經歷全民數位韌性連結民主網路凍結十分之一案六決議八創新數位跨"},{"start":2484.216,"end":2501.04,"text":"跨域協作訂定智慧應用基礎凍結五分之一案數據發展部函七字九檢証制度安全暑期決議一一般行政凍結一千萬元案八決議二綜合規劃管理凍結十分之一案九決議三"},{"start":2501.56,"end":2529.097,"text":"辅导培训业务冻结十分之一案数位发展部时至十三减送数位产业属使决议依基本行政工作为此冻结五分之一案十一决议二设备及投资冻结十分之一案十二决议四媒体政策及业务宣导费冻结四分之一案十三决议五促进数位创新动能转型升级冻结十分之一案是处理一百一四年度中央政府总预算"},{"start":2529.997,"end":2534.961,"text":"關於行政院公共工程委員會預算凍結案第七案行政院公共工程委員會凍結十分之一案"},{"start":2544.184,"end":2544.724,"text":"宣讀完畢做以下決定"},{"start":2572.23,"end":2583.966,"text":"報告事項2到41114年度中央政府總預算案決議各案書面報告已送達均予被查提報院會"},{"start":2588.366,"end":2607.024,"text":"接著進行審查及處理討論事項有關交通部主管14案、數位發展部主管7案及行政院公共工程委員會議案之解凍案先進行機關報告及詢答程序我們先請陳士凱部長報告"},{"start":2617.301,"end":2637.575,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生首先感謝各位委員對於本部相關業務之指導與支持今天遵照大院的議事安排就本部114年度單位預算凍結項目提出報告討論事項涉及本部部分共有14案其中專案報告計7案"},{"start":2648.381,"end":2670.686,"text":"營業基金科目下台鐵公司台鐵軌道結構安全提升計畫營業所需基礎建設重置計畫以及淘機公司等六案以及氣象署氣象科技研究發展提出專案報告書面報告經同意案計六案其中本部業務凍結70%民航局"},{"start":2674.767,"end":2679.931,"text":"空運管理業務凍結30%以及鐵道局業務凍結30%須經大院同意後 使得凍之其餘的三案分別為本部媒體政策及業務宣導費用凍結20%觀光署觀光業務凍結30%以及公路局公路及監理業務管理凍結20億元另外公路局"},{"start":2703.187,"end":2723.926,"text":"的媒體政策以及業務宣導費用預算凍結十分之一原為書面報告即可動之為經院會決議交貴委員會審查本次會議同樣列為討論案上開各個預算系配合本部各項業務的推動包括建構道路以及"},{"start":2724.767,"end":2739.442,"text":"交通安全推動台灣觀光亮點提升公共運輸品質強化幸福交通網連結優化海空運發展精進遊感氣象服務等等各項重要的工作維持所需要的經費"},{"start":2740.936,"end":2761.602,"text":"考量今天議事議程較多為了節省時間以下容我僅針對專案報告之本部以及氣象署業務推動的情形請會計處張處長以及氣象署呂署長檢要報告辦理的情形敬請各委員會與支持並且同意動之經費謝謝"},{"start":2769.582,"end":2770.007,"text":"請交通部繼續報告"},{"start":2773.717,"end":2798.113,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生大院議事安排我們本部的部分有14案我們除了以正式函報書面之外我們也都逐案做了所謂口頭報告那因為我現在就本部的8個案子做重點摘要所以所有的口頭報告請各位委員參閱那我們的報告基本上是按凍結數字比例大小的順序我來做一個說明那第一個是有關業務費預算7.37億元凍結70%要經同意時的凍資一案"},{"start":2804.157,"end":2823.029,"text":"一決議凍結比例70%本不僅於30%可以滋用與執行至30%使得申請凍結之條件競合因此因為預算法明定不得在預算外動用公款且優惠的性質支付作業無法控制剛好滋用30%所以本解凍案"},{"start":2823.789,"end":2851.81,"text":"申請的這個報告僅能以實際簽約等執行情形預計使用數將達30%的情形來呈現連同本部主管其他解凍案一併提出來報告那因為這個解凍案的高比例所以我們本部已經採取了各項管控措施包含節能部分於本年3月底之前全日停止空調設備運轉其餘部分下午5點以後即轉換為最小頓速的冰水主機"},{"start":2853.152,"end":2867.069,"text":"這個維持最低限度的運轉那非不上班時段我們僅開放一部電梯同時針對所有採購發包案均加注因預算凍結得延遲付款的單書協調廠商延後清款以為因應那經統計各項合約及交通"},{"start":2869.412,"end":2881.581,"text":"基本違運必須的支出預計付款期程截至4月底已經支付了是0.55億元其中採取前階節能措施後截至4月平均用電度數已較113年同期顯著減少3萬餘度"},{"start":2887.686,"end":2892.272,"text":"約13%推估在相同節能作為下整體業務費預計至7月中整體支付數將達業務費的30%另外截至目前已訂有契約數加計已簽約數大概有6億5900餘萬元"},{"start":2905.24,"end":2920.704,"text":"6億5900餘萬元 軍系更續推動道路安全 交通安全 新車安全平等等揭露發展智慧交通運輸等重點工作 確有其必要第二點 大陸地區旅費預算7.2萬元 凍結二分之一案 是專案報告為掌握亞洲物流運輸發展趨勢及持續推動兩岸之間的空運"},{"start":2929.226,"end":2946.655,"text":"海貨運直航、小山東客貨運業務並保障國人用油權益須與陸方海空運及郵政等部門就航班數量及航點相關議題進行業務交流與施壓機械商以增進往來民眾物流與油物資便捷與暢通"},{"start":2947.836,"end":2969.514,"text":"第三點交通運輸規劃及產業發展向下業務費預算5.5億元凍結28%專案報告一案因應財政收支劃分法修正後中央稅務財源大幅減少對未來年度中央負責施政之稅出資源配置必然造成影響行政院基於事務權責與財力相應"},{"start":2971.556,"end":2990.324,"text":"因相符之原則以積極進行規劃協商本部相關事權劃分將配合行政院整體調整結果積極辦理並持續與地方政府的交通部門溝通合作使國家整體財政做最適切的運用第四媒體政策及業務宣導費預算0.82億元凍結20%"},{"start":2995.467,"end":3012.026,"text":"書面報告經同意後使得動資為達成2030年前降低死亡人數50%的目標本部除致力於改善危險入口增加人行道空間等優化道路基本環境外培養正確駕駛及用路觀念也同等重要"},{"start":3012.646,"end":3027.718,"text":"透過多元媒體管道依不同目標族群特性設計文宣及規劃通路向民眾傳達我國當前道路交通安全重要法規及推行政策內容以深化各族群用路知識五 派員出國計劃預算456.6萬元凍結五分之一專案報告案"},{"start":3034.023,"end":3056.469,"text":"將汲取外國經驗 接軌國際作為我國擬定推動淨零轉型及道路安全等交通政策的參與將更積極參與APEC運輸領域等重要場合及拜會與各經濟體的運輸單位代表進行交流 必使政府相關決策可以更加周延可行六 投資台鐵軌道結構安全提升計畫預算8天5億元 凍結3000萬元"},{"start":3061.161,"end":3085.379,"text":"書面報告同經同一時的動滋案為確保軌道整體結構強度本部已責任台鐵公司切實檢討改善列車滑走及吊車出軌事故除落實定期巡檢及人員教育訓練外加速趕辦倒叉更新作業以防患目診行倒叉螺栓因年久收拖致軌的"},{"start":3087.06,"end":3106.189,"text":"軌跡擴大而造成列車出軌落軌等事故再次發生其投資台鐵公司營業所需基礎設施重置計畫預算9.5億元凍結5000萬元狀案報告為強化平交道安全本部已責任台鐵公司切實檢討改善遮斷機更新優化作業"},{"start":3107.75,"end":3112.415,"text":"經盤查急需額外辦理電源改善計149處預計於114年11月完成電源改善並於115年7月前完成遮斷機全速安裝八 投資國際機場桃園"},{"start":3123.783,"end":3147.78,"text":"股份有限公司預算63.8億元凍結2億元案為推動台灣桃園國際機場第三航站區建設計畫因所需資金龐大無法全數由公司營運資金支應必須由國庫予以部分挹注自有關該計畫向下旅客運輸系統工程終止契約案本部已要求桃機公司依其檢討與精進做法"},{"start":3149.301,"end":3167.152,"text":"若屬於後續發報作業,避免再發生類似爭議,並緊速辦理接續採購及建置作業,以其第三行下啟用時期如期提供服務。中上本部各項施政計劃,局勢配合國家發展,循序推動。懇請各位委員支持,並同意相關經費的動資,並立各項業務推動。謝謝。"},{"start":3176.076,"end":3200.392,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今天應邀列席貴賓會就有關於中央氣象署決議第一幕氣象科技研究發展凍結十分之一有關台灣南部海域地震"},{"start":3201.172,"end":3218.742,"text":"海嘯的海底監測系統建置提出專案報告進行各位委員賜教並予以支持為強化台灣南部海域地震跟海嘯的運行能力本署提報台灣南部海域地震的海嘯海底監測計畫"},{"start":3221.744,"end":3248.846,"text":"主要工作包含兩項一個是建置南部海域海嵐的監測系統以及維持既有海嵐的監測系統設備以及陸上站的穩定維運那台灣南部海域海嵐監測案呢於110年到112年間遭受COVID-19等不可抗拒的因素造成廠商施作成本大幅提升疑慮的增加疫情期間共"},{"start":3250.187,"end":3269.559,"text":"產生了八次的流標現象那本署就遭遇的問題積極的辦理了兩次修正計畫第一次修正計畫仍然是因為受到不可抗力的因素導致了三次的流廢標為立計畫能夠持續的推動本署在112年10月20號召開了專家委員會進行第二次計畫的修正作業"},{"start":3275.423,"end":3293.243,"text":"計畫雖然受限於經費的因素有縮減的規模但是對於台灣南部海域以及及時地震跟海嘯監測的目標維持不變並且兼顧了持續既有的海嵐的維運同時也兼顧了往南延伸的擴充性"},{"start":3294.204,"end":3305.019,"text":"在第二次修正計畫之後呢能持續的招標可是呢仍然沒有廠商有來投標導致廢標的情況目前我們正嚴厲辦理後續的"},{"start":3308.444,"end":3332.684,"text":"工作那本署依據學者的相關研究呢位於台灣西南方的馬尼拉海溝呢是引發高海效的潛在可能的震源主要會危及屏東高雄台南等臨近的地區臨海的地區有建於本署辦理本計劃呢是有其必要的才能夠去提供這個"},{"start":3333.985,"end":3349.073,"text":"海溝地震海嘯的監測能力能夠降低這一些天然災害對於臺灣西南部沿海地震所造成的威脅那本計劃完成後預計可以對我們臺灣西南部沿海的地震"},{"start":3349.913,"end":3365.666,"text":"預警提供14秒的提前預警海嘯預警可以提前30分鐘的預警應變時間那本署現在正努力的徵詢潛在的廠商並依據最新市場的動態以及國內的需求規劃進行第三次修正"},{"start":3367.19,"end":3393.42,"text":"以朝在經費的許可範圍之內呢尋找潛在廠商有意願投標的情況那為降低馬尼拉海溝的大地震所可能對臺灣西南部海域的威脅那本署呢也心緒正推動本計劃努力的達成強化臺灣南部海域地震跟海嘯的預警能力本署的第一幕氣象科技研究發展預算呢同時呢也辦理了氣象監測"},{"start":3396.027,"end":3412.94,"text":"預報的精心以及人工智慧應用在先進科技的發展同時也兼顧了海嵐的穩定作業對於氣象、地震、海嘯等等防潛在作業影響甚具請各位支持並同意予以動之以利業務發展及推動 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請蘇發部黃燕蘭部長報告"},{"start":3429.527,"end":3453.557,"text":"主席各位委員大家好首先感謝各位委員對於本部相關業務的指導跟支持本部主管114年單位預算凍結案有20案已提交詳細的解凍報告給大院以下就三案專案報告及一案書面報告須經大院同意後使得凍資的辦理情形檢要報告另外16案的"},{"start":3455.158,"end":3481.892,"text":"書面報告解凍部分請參閱紙本報告請各位委員指教第一案是蘇發布的數位創新關鍵基礎建設計畫預算是凍結50%專案報告案數位創新關鍵基礎建設計畫的分散式驗證及授權系統也就是所謂的數位憑證批夾系統就像一般民眾日常生活使用的實體批夾"},{"start":3483.032,"end":3504.798,"text":"是用來存放數位憑證容器民眾於生活中可以依其需要來放入數位憑證需要的時候可以拿出數位憑證供驗證用也可以隨時移除處方在裡面的數位憑證皮夾裡面的數位憑證那數位憑證皮夾有完善的隱私保護措施嚴格的"},{"start":3505.638,"end":3530.061,"text":"治安措施並遵循我國個人資料保護法電子簽章法資通安全管理法確保整個系統運作符合相關法律要求一方面保障了民眾的個人資料的隱私權也建立政府與社會對數位憑證的服務的一個信任基礎數位憑證皮夾有望成為我國兼顧便利與"},{"start":3530.922,"end":3546.238,"text":"安全的數位公共服務推動我國數位政府去數位生活邁向新的里程碑第二個是蘇發部對一個創新數位跨域協作訂定智慧應用基礎的預算凍結50%的專案報告案"},{"start":3549.791,"end":3564.868,"text":"創新數位跨域協作奠定智慧應用基礎的預算編業那是維持精進整體行政部門數位運作的基本經費無論是全國政府網路骨幹服務政府專屬資料傳輸機制"},{"start":3567.631,"end":3596.768,"text":"推動政府系統數位韌性補助地方政府數位發展及培育政府數位人才等工作都仰賴本預算的支持跟推動讓政府數位服務及行政運作更快更穩定更具安全性為了持續推動智慧政府計畫完善部門能工智慧應用參考手冊強化資訊人才技能優化數位服務入口"},{"start":3598.028,"end":3618.62,"text":"這項工作經費都有積極執行的必要性第三數位產業署測盡數位跨域應用與平台服務預算凍結十分之一的專案報告數位產業署聚焦於推動資安產業促進AI產業躍升強化產業科技聯防及建構數位內容產業四大主軸在資安產業相關技術包括軍用"},{"start":3626.464,"end":3651.676,"text":"軍民通用AI導入資安後量子密碼等與晶片檢測能力等並透過展會擴展國際市場AI產業透過產業聯盟驗證應用場域協助企業導入AI打造方面要求網路廣告平台第三方支付電商及遊戲業者落實防炸數位內容產業提供場域及技術資源與國際合作推動原創遊戲"},{"start":3655.338,"end":3662.521,"text":"上架國際促進跨域創新第四 數位產業署促進數位創新動能轉型升級預算凍結十億元書面報告經同意後使得動之案"},{"start":3672.702,"end":3695.681,"text":"庶產署在有限機會之下考慮急迫性跟必要性將優先支持打擊詐騙如詐欺犯罪危害防治條例洗錢防治法相關配合工作公權力行使如電商的治安與個資防護的行政檢查第三方付款"},{"start":3700.469,"end":3714.539,"text":"業務洗錢防治及服務能量登錄、電子簽章法、5G專案管理等法定職長的業務的推動另外在有限的資源下議會持續輔導數位遊戲、資安產業及制服業者等創新研發以及促進業者投入AI、新興技術應用"},{"start":3725.343,"end":3748.855,"text":"或方案研發與百工百業AI的普及應用逼逐步實現加速產業數位創新轉型帶動數位相關產業發展的願景結語本部將以積極推動打造工作強化國家數位韌性推動數位經濟發展等三支箭達到新立可防弊的雙重效果"},{"start":3750.475,"end":3776.272,"text":"出發部各項施政計畫與預算軍配合數位發展政策循序推動為因應業務實際的需要以上預算凍結案 懇請各位委員支持並同意相關經費的動之 便利各項業務能夠順利推動 謝謝現在請工程會陳金德主委報告"},{"start":3785.613,"end":3798.516,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好首先感謝各位委員對本會相關業務之執法與支持今天呈邀列席貴委員會就本會114年度預算解凍案進行報告本會114年度單位預算凍結案計8案其中7案需"},{"start":3805.538,"end":3815.349,"text":"向貴委員會提書面時的動之那麼剛才的報告事項也獲得委員會的支持感謝各位委員會的支持另外一案"},{"start":3816.924,"end":3837.907,"text":"是需執行30%之後那麼要經院會同意時的動之這是業務會凍結50%的部分那麼列入今天貴委員會的討論事項那麼以下請就提案事項的理由啊做說明第一本會主改的進度說明本會"},{"start":3839.088,"end":3866.917,"text":"一大院三讀通過的行政院公共工程委員會組織條例設立迄今另外行政院功能業務與組織調整條例也經大院110年12月21日三讀通過那麼已經刪除原名稱行政院功能業務與組織調整暫行條例暫行遏制那麼以因行政院主改作業得益國家發展的政務需求施政環境"},{"start":3867.697,"end":3884.905,"text":"背景等以穩健務實的以及彈性的方式進行滾動調整本會現階段維持以工程會運作未來組織日調整當配合行政院政策辦理事實說本會功能之重要性與必要性那麼第二"},{"start":3888.32,"end":3896.876,"text":"113年12月本會以徵修公共工程價格資料庫決標標筆查詢功能本會公共工程價格資料庫"},{"start":3899.042,"end":3914.299,"text":"以完成借接政府電子採購網可直接取得各機關上傳決標案件之底價資料用於計算決標筆並於113年12月於公共工程雲端服務網技術雲價格資料庫頁面新增查詢決標筆功能選項"},{"start":3919.164,"end":3926.109,"text":"提供使用者查詢特定工項決標單價時可一併查詢該工程決標單價之平均決標比供各機關訂定工程採購底價時參考本會業務主要為統籌公共工程之規劃審議協調督導事項"},{"start":3940.899,"end":3967.113,"text":"糖無法解凍將影響全國公共工程計畫以基本設計審議、流標檢討會議、政府採購爭議案件審議量能技師及顧問公司證照業務推動協助工程產業海外發展業務推動工程節能減碳推動政府採購電子化及資訊安全等將影響重大建設之推動進而影響民眾生活品質之提升"},{"start":3967.893,"end":3977.619,"text":"本會114年度業務會截至114年4月底已執行1894萬5千元如果含全責發生數金額4990萬2千元合計6884萬7千元執行率已達35.35%"},{"start":3991.626,"end":4018.333,"text":"為業務推動順遂懇請各位委員支持同意相關經費之動之以利各項業務之推動謝謝討論事項機關報告完畢個案也均有送詳細書面請各位一併參考並列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":4025.596,"end":4051.871,"text":"現在進行詢答先宣告以下事項詢答時間出席委員五分鐘列席委員四分鐘委員發言登記於十點三十分截止各委員如有臨時提案請於十點前提出以便議事人員會診暫定十點三十分休息十分鐘"},{"start":4053.396,"end":4073.101,"text":"中午原則上不休息現在請登記第一位委員洪孟楷委員發言主席謝謝麻煩請交通部陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":4081.158,"end":4108.672,"text":"好 部長好委員好部長前天在新北三峽的這個車禍真的是讓國人都非常的痛心那我也看到交通部動作很快不只取消520的週年記者會那並且在昨天有宣布要調整三項的檢討措施其中包括現行的高齡換照制度75歲到70歲有提到說換照考試要增加實地演練是不是可以說明一下實地演練跟現在預期的規劃方向是什麼"},{"start":4109.632,"end":4133.044,"text":"報告委員 這個部分我們是針對有肇事紀錄者有肇事紀錄者我們希望能夠增加安全駕駛能力的訓練課程那這個課程除了說有講習之外還有另外一個重要的是實地的演練我們希望實際上讓他在車上開車的狀況底下我們有人在旁邊看跟現行的筆試跟錄考有什麼不同"},{"start":4133.953,"end":4162.666,"text":"跟現行的駕照考試跟現行的駕照考試應該不會是一樣的應該不會是一樣的但是我們要去檢測的是他在車上他的反應能力可不可以還有他的駕駛能力可不可以這個部分我們會有另外一套的系統跟一般的第一次的考照的狀況一定是不一樣的一定不一樣可是現在現行的制度的問題在於是高齡換照只要檢附體檢證明跟失智證明"},{"start":4163.226,"end":4180.887,"text":"所以換言之現在都是所謂的文件審查而已我們有認知能力的這個考驗考試嘛那未來你要針對叫實地的演練的部分國人也很關心因為在這一起事件上面當然這一起事件到最後的一個成因為何目前還不知道還在調查"},{"start":4181.468,"end":4199.661,"text":"但是你也講了一句就是說不希望對於高齡駕駛有誤解也不要有歧視不過過去也有很多的這個所謂的高齡駕駛的一個事故所以我們才會做這樣的一個修正嘛對不對所以實地演練未來什麼時候會讓國人清楚明白而且你剛有提到一個是說只針對肇事"},{"start":4201.502,"end":4223.239,"text":"有肇事前科的沒有肇事前科的我們會用這個教育訓練的部分講習的部分那另外比較重要其實這一次我們的改革方向比較重要的是大家也相當關心就是像剛剛委員所提到我們那個測驗能不能夠反映出長者在駕駛的過程當中他的反應能力所以我們危險感知的測驗也會放進來"},{"start":4224.019,"end":4245.121,"text":"包含他的反應速度跟對於危險事物的那個感知的能力齁這個我們也都會放進來那我們剛剛所提到的這個細節的部分我昨天有跟民眾報告過跟媒體報告三個月之後我們會把這個細節提出來三個月延年出來方案對對對什麼時候實施我們希望明年一百一十五年能夠實施明年一月開始實施我們希望明年可以實施好"},{"start":4245.922,"end":4273.875,"text":"那這個部分其實我們一起來努力就是希望是能夠降低交通事故尤其是看到這個新北三峽的這一件非常讓人難過的一個事故不過如果說很多人也在提到是說高齡駕駛的部分是在偏鄉地區他可能會有一些交通的一個需求那你之前有提到是所謂的幸福小巴或是幸福巴士幸福小王或幸福巴士的部分目前覆蓋率還是沒有辦法達到來人之百"},{"start":4274.676,"end":4279.251,"text":"你之前有提過2028年要到百分之百這個目標有沒有可能再提前"},{"start":4280.22,"end":4306.638,"text":"因為如果說75歲往下變成70歲的話可能182萬人都會有受到影響是沒有錯報告委員現在人數確實是我們高齡化社會之後增長蠻多現在70歲以上差不多有182萬人那10年之後我們會有272萬人這個問題一定要解決就是大家行的問題我們都會老我們老了之後一方面有可能需要駕駛"},{"start":4307.478,"end":4326.303,"text":"二方面有可能像剛剛委員所提到的幸福小黃的部分目前我們的覆蓋率94%目前大概只有四五個鄉鎮沒有那委員在提醒的我們一定會努力來做看可不可以提早啦我們提早如果只差幾個鄉鎮我們盡量想辦法讓它趕快有幸福小黃跟幸福巴瑟的建置覆蓋率可以達到100%"},{"start":4329.065,"end":4356.93,"text":"是不是跟我也報告因為覆蓋率它的定義就是說它是說你的住戶500公尺範圍內有公共運輸通行那有些住戶其實它的500公尺其實它是車子進不了的它有一些部分沒關係 局長這個事後再給本席資料好不好我們只要車子能夠到得了我們小車能夠到得了我們會盡量來不過來看一下這一次的一個事故狀況因為你看其實很多人現在也都開始在看媒體也整理了"},{"start":4357.29,"end":4379.933,"text":"其實他從國慶路學城路這邊第一已經有所謂的肇事不管是撞到後車之後加速逃逸的情況那到北大國小甚至第三個點以及到第四個點撞到分隔島才停下來我們特別算了一下這個距離有多長你知道嗎有將近400多公尺"},{"start":4381.229,"end":4407.538,"text":"換言之這樣的一個距離400多公尺然後又是整個極限距離他已經很難是單一的因素他不一定是當然高齡有沒有可能他誤踩因為這一個就這一個於南來講他五年前也有肇事紀錄而當時肇事紀錄的一個他的太太的說法是說他把煞車誤踩成油門所以才會造成五年前的肇事紀錄新聞上都有看到"},{"start":4408.058,"end":4425.44,"text":"那五年後發生那麼令人難過的一個意外狀況那我們現在來講除了所謂的行人地域要改善工程要來繼續做維護以外軟體的部分以及相關的車輛主動行人防治的一個部分是不是也應該加強因為"},{"start":4427.142,"end":4444.971,"text":"如同你現在講的調整高齡的駕駛的一個年齡比照英國 日本日本就是70歲以上就要換照嘛我們這套系統其實是應該是學習參考日本啦因為日本比我們更早進入超高齡社會那日本就有強迫要加裝防暴衝裝置"},{"start":4446.636,"end":4466.122,"text":"因為在車輛上面的防暴衝裝置的話有可能是不是就比較有機會能夠降低今天的事故不然您看從第一個點一直到第二個點直線尤其我們看到那個影片甚至影片行車紀錄器出來之後很多人講是說根本沒有閃的空間"},{"start":4468.805,"end":4476.219,"text":"來 部長請說明一下日本有強迫不管是加裝防爆衝裝置或者是加裝防撞輔助系統等等"},{"start":4477.759,"end":4504.238,"text":"我們未來有沒有思考這樣的方向這個部分我所理解的日本不一定是有強迫加裝啦但是我知道他們有補助補助加裝這方面的設備那我們也來研議一下日本他們的做法我現在得到的資料是高齡者的部分日本是有強迫加裝他們有補助啦我知道他們補助了九成那未來台灣要不要也進入這樣子的做法我們來參考他們的案例這才是治標啊"},{"start":4505.313,"end":4526.319,"text":"治標 治本一起啊是 是 沒錯這個我們會參考他們的模式因為現在看到的狀況是大家也都在講說是不是道路設計有問題就目前為止交通部了解道路設計有沒有問題這個部分我們有了解過嗎如果說道路設計沒有問題那是不是就是在車輛上面駕駛人的行為"},{"start":4527.697,"end":4543.321,"text":"不管他是肇事逃逸 他心生畏懼還是他故意想要逃離現場而假設加速逃逸還是他年長 誤踩油門還是他任何理由 但都不構成理由跟藉口因為三人已經天然永隔了"},{"start":4545.202,"end":4570.533,"text":"但是他的刑責讓檢查單位他們好好去做釐清調查但我們現在要做的是我們怎麼樣未來能夠防範而剛剛部長有提到就是說當日本也好或是說其他國家都有針對車輛上的部分做防爆衝裝置的一個安裝補助也好強制也好或是說多少年齡要要求這才是配套啊不然你今天只是改一個75歲變成70歲那未來咧不只是75歲到70"},{"start":4575.075,"end":4600.659,"text":"是我知道但是我只是說在車輛上面委員您在說的車輛上面是這個其實我們現在對於新車當然安全上面的限定是有的有要加裝一些安全的這個感知跟安全的系統這個都有但是對於未來年長者的駕駛的部分我們使用中的車輛要不要來補助或加裝這個我們來研議是不是一起在這三個月內您有講到三個月嗎是"},{"start":4600.999,"end":4621.172,"text":"是不是在這三個月內當一起75歲變70歲然後相關的這個實地演練的制度一起出來的時候也把這個一起提出來我們科技防禦的部分我們也在這三個月裡面我們來做檢討國人在看是沒錯部長本席有看到520內閣來講哇你的滿意度很高啊"},{"start":4622.082,"end":4642.496,"text":"是不是負評最低謝謝本期當然就期待的是交通部講的是專業我每次要講說交通委員會每次開會的時候只要後面沒有攝影機都是好事沒有發生事情嘛是但是現在發生事情我們要做檢討而你也提到了三個月內會把相關的配套給拿出來那我們當然希望是說連同你剛剛講到的"},{"start":4643.777,"end":4670.165,"text":"仿照日本 學習日本 參考日本的制度日本有什麼好的制度我們來學習用在台灣身上讓台灣能夠更進一步的防止這個行人地獄防止這樣的憾事在發生可以嗎可以 這個部分我們來努力三個月內提出來好 我們來研議三個月之內來研議好 來 抱歉 趙偉我還有我問一下速發部好不好 抱歉速發部長 麻煩一下兩分鐘就好抱歉 趙偉 謝謝"},{"start":4672.089,"end":4694.988,"text":"你已經超過很久了 再一分鐘好了好 謝謝今天五分鐘 但是三個部會我們有交通部 速發部跟工程會那麼重要來 速發部長詐騙廣告抓不完打詐指揮官520的時候希望跨部會主詐說跟臉書高層面對面溝通來 我先請教這是新聞喔 來下一頁"},{"start":4699.301,"end":4715.932,"text":"首先警方講說有移交事務案給速發部審理並裁罰所以兩個禮拜前在交通委員會這邊的時候本席有問內政部到底有沒有移交相關的案件我們那時候應該是次長吧講說沒有收到這不是事實吧"},{"start":4716.692,"end":4744.405,"text":"5月1號他是5月1號早上送到我們是5月1號早上資訊所以是資訊完回去才看到公文這麼巧對就是剛好那一天好那沒關係現在15案裡面已已給訴發部審理並且裁罰目前的進度那個我們經過跟檢警調開會在這個禮拜一開會以後我們會決定裁罰但是我還在進行行政程序裁罰誰就是meta裁罰臉書對meta為什麼"},{"start":4746.124,"end":4767.165,"text":"就是有那個因為我們必須要落實使民制這一段確實是有因為剛講15個案子裡面再加上我們發現的一個案子雖然有一個案子確實有資料不全再加上我們自己發現的一個案子所以有兩個案子目前已經決定開罰但是這個還在走行政流程我們在短期之內就會做公告跟採訪"},{"start":4768.527,"end":4789.464,"text":"本席實在不想講說汪洋補牢有未完已因為每天有多少個詐騙案件而到現在我們通過了打詐釋法2月才開始到位結果4月5月才從內政部移交案件到速發部速發部又在一個月左右的時間今天5月21號你說下個禮拜才要處理預計5月底處理結果才"},{"start":4793.087,"end":4821.986,"text":"也不要講採兩個案啦你說國人有每天收到多少個詐騙多少一個月有幾百億的詐騙結果現在說要開罰兩個案但是有做是好事可是我現在在想的是如果連到現在打詐指揮官都在講是說希望能夠跟臉書高層碰面那我想請教那過去到現在我們都知道你的通報系統裡面九成"},{"start":4822.786,"end":4851.098,"text":"來自Meta 詐騙訊息來自Meta那到底我們跟Meta是多麼不對等的關係我們隨時保持溝通 後面也有我們的系統在溝通所以剛剛講那麼多案子 為什麼只有採到這麼少因為叫他們下架 二十小下架他們都有配合那這個所謂的實名制 十五個案子裡面他們也都有 這樣只有一個案子資料不全 這個是我們要來 部長您再看一下第三段 現在上演"},{"start":4852.096,"end":4874.759,"text":"第三段的第三行警方沒有人力一天到晚逐一檢視廣告其實這就重點了我們一直講的是說在詐騙廣告投放的時候它就是源頭源頭如果沒有管理的話你就會讓國人很容易接收到詐騙廣告而如果說這些都需要檢方再來逐一檢視廣告才去做通報"},{"start":4875.8,"end":4895.229,"text":"那變成是我們的警方也好或是我們相關政府部門的人是在幫Meta做管理 廣告審查不是 照理講是如果說這個是詐騙廣告的話你Meta公司你要刊登這個廣告你就應該要有負責任不管是你自己的內機內控不管是你的相關的一個法務查核"},{"start":4896.209,"end":4924.475,"text":"你放任這個廣告出來讓警方看到 警方看到之後再通報你然後你說24小時內讓他下架覺得說這個就是Meta已經有做到企業相關責任本末倒置吧就是我們目前法規是這樣子以後要不要修法再說但目前法規確實有這20小時的這個下架期那目前它是有符合的但是我跟委員講就是說也不是完全靠警政署我們用AI去掃描我們每天大概都可以掃描到就一個月"},{"start":4925.836,"end":4946.452,"text":"過去這幾個月我們大概下架了4萬筆來部長我看到下一頁最後一分鐘我覺得我今天看到了你們的通報系統在上線之後我發覺一個很大的問題跟bug訊息處理流程各個民眾也好AI掃描也好給速發部速發部收到之後再給各部會確認"},{"start":4949.147,"end":4970.415,"text":"不管這是公文往返或說這是確認的一個過程 系統確認然後之後再回來 然後再通知那這樣子會不會 速發部來講就還是算一個總機我是一個收案 然後我再給各部會確認但 本席 時間的關係 本席指建議真的是強烈的建議"},{"start":4971.946,"end":4993.456,"text":"新加坡他們2019年成立跨部會的打詐中心就讓各部會有專職人員能夠進駐到同一個辦公室在同一個辦公室裡面大家共同針對詐騙的訊息來做一個討論那這樣子就可以縮短溝通的流程並且能夠及時的通知社群媒體平台來去做後續的處理"},{"start":4995.844,"end":5010.337,"text":"2019年人家就已經有做了到現在2025年 6年過去了新加坡的打詐在國際上來講大家是認同的大家也看到它有實際的成效的我們能不能學習別人好的經驗"},{"start":5011.238,"end":5033.371,"text":"我們會繼續改進 目前我們通報到各部位它的平均反應時間是一到三個小時所以已經已經比過去進步很多了那當然還有改進的空間我們會繼續努力讓這個整個流程會更順暢更快速 部長今天解凍本席對於速發部該用的預算沒有意見但是你最後的結語講的是還是以打炸"},{"start":5035.521,"end":5049.177,"text":"積極推動打榨工作我們希望看到真的是積極看到是專業看到是真的有決心要做打榨能夠部會整合源頭管理而不是直接放任好嗎好 這個我們會繼續努力"},{"start":5055.195,"end":5069.748,"text":"謝謝我們剛剛洪委員提到說有這麼多部門因為今天有三十幾位所以我想我們會尊重委員的花言也請委員尊重主席在控制時間以後希望大家互相尊重好謝謝我們請李坤哲委員謝謝昭緯請一下陳士凱部長陳文睿局長"},{"start":5082.79,"end":5084.952,"text":"還有吳聲源吳董事長請部長還有交通部部長新北三峽發生嚴重的傷亡車禍社會大眾與受害者家屬同感傷痛"},{"start":5107.328,"end":5132.189,"text":"當然現在相關的肇事原因不管是人為的因素個人的因素或者是車輛的因素相關單位都應該要積極的調查提早讓真正的真相讓社會大眾有一個交代那這一次的事件當中當然高齡駕駛跟換照制度成為社會嚴肅討論的一個焦點"},{"start":5135.091,"end":5149.656,"text":"那其實我們來看世界各國主要國家對於這種換照制度我來做一個基本的盤點那我們看台灣、日本、韓國、美國、加拿大以及澳洲"},{"start":5150.396,"end":5172.274,"text":"其實我們在我們目前的這個換照制度其實我們跟日韓在體格測驗以及認知測驗就是檢查項目這個部分大概是一致的但在入考的部分增加入考的部分特殊的狀況這個部分是有差異的我請教一下部長你的基本看法"},{"start":5173.015,"end":5189.814,"text":"是 報告委員 這個部分也是大家都希望說能夠加強的部分所以在我們未來新的規範裡面我們在道路考試的部分其實我們針對這個有肇事記錄者我們就會增加入考的部分除了講習之外 再增加入考的部分"},{"start":5190.154,"end":5209.443,"text":"好我們現在交通部目前公布的做法是換照年齡要從75歲下修到70歲這個是要修法的另外強化了檢測項目還有增加交通安全教育的課程以及對有肇事記錄者必須要增加這種實地的駕駛的訓練是駕駛訓練"},{"start":5213.325,"end":5229.953,"text":"我具體的建議我們應該要參考日韓美澳等國來建立分階段的換照制度就是以不同的年齡例如70歲到75歲或是75歲以上的在那個年齡差異"},{"start":5231.013,"end":5246.707,"text":"以及更重要是否有特定的違規項目來建立不同階段的換照的檢測項目例如增加入考或是特定違規樣態的這種課程來部長簡單說明一下報告委員這個部分我們確實應該分階段那這個部分細部的細則以委員這個建議我們在三個月之後會來提出來"},{"start":5256.868,"end":5264.713,"text":"另外就是有關的 ADAS就是JAS的輔助系統這個我們應該協助民眾來"},{"start":5267.506,"end":5287.437,"text":"加裝這樣的一個設備交通部應該更進一步的研議了在日本啊他們有補助高齡者駕駛啊購買有ADAS系統的新車這個部長也清楚加拿大2025年開始啊也強制這種新車要搭載部分的ADAS系統"},{"start":5288.317,"end":5315.073,"text":"那歐盟他在一般安全法裡面新車配備要強制加裝ADAS系統那這種先進的駕駛輔助系統交通部的看法是如何來 部長是 報告委員我們跟歐盟其實是調和的所以我們的規範其實跟歐盟是差不多的也就是說我們的新車都有加裝ADAS的系統這個部分其實都有了"},{"start":5315.407,"end":5341.796,"text":"那我們會要求這樣的高齡駕駛者來做處理這樣一個先進駕駛的輔助系統嗎報告委員其實新車的部分現在只要買新車都會有啦高齡駕駛者如果到時候使用者我們現在看到的大部分他駕駛的不是新車但如果委員這樣建議的話我們就朝這個方向我們來研議就是說對於高齡駕駛者的補助的部分購買新車讓他有更好的科技系統可以來做"},{"start":5342.056,"end":5363.41,"text":"首先是要研究各國實施的這樣的一個成效我們再來討論是否要強制或是高齡者的這樣的一個加裝的必須性那第二個也必須跟社會來更廣泛的一個民意的討論另外我們對於要補助這樣一個加裝的費用是否要給予補助"},{"start":5364.45,"end":5382.84,"text":"這個都交通部必須更進一步的來研議也盡快的向社會來公布另外就是有關於建立高齡者友善的這樣一個出行空間那當然交通部在昨天我有看交通部所做出的回應65歲以上的長者繳回駕照"},{"start":5387.222,"end":5407.727,"text":"可以提供TPAS的月票補助另外也擴大針對65歲以上祭典達到三次或常見違規者會做加強關懷服務那這個部分我要提醒部長志願繳回高齡者駕照補助TPAS"},{"start":5408.86,"end":5424.002,"text":"其實在雙北它的大眾運輸使用率比較高都有30幾%以上但是中南部都是個位數這樣的一個繳回駕照補助TBUS成效恐怕不會太高在中南部來說"},{"start":5425.003,"end":5450.341,"text":"另外我是研議更進一步我們是否要提供每個月固定的次數或是金額這樣的一個公共小房就是說它這個補助金額是不累積的你用完就完了或是你沒用完下個月是沒有累積上去的這樣的一個公共小房的補助對中南部長者的出門會有比較實際的幫助"},{"start":5452.583,"end":5474.095,"text":"那這個部分部長來說明一下好 報告委員我們第一個部分啦 志願繳回者我們補助TPAS這個部分我們會做那另外委員剛剛所建議的這個公共小黃尤其在中南部確實是有這樣的需求我們來研議看看看有沒有機會來提供這樣子的不累積的不累積的方式來提供這樣子的服務跟補助"},{"start":5474.835,"end":5497.762,"text":"好另外不只換照的制度交通建設也關係到相關的這樣的一個民眾的安全那交通部報告有相關的不管是入口行人安全設施的改善或是校園周邊道路的改善以及公路局要進行入口的改善或是行人穿越道的退縮的改善以及行人專用實相機及早開實相的這樣的一個處理"},{"start":5502.603,"end":5521.356,"text":"希望都能夠全力的督促盡快完成部長簡單說明一下好 報告委員這個部分我們盡量跟地方政府也好或者是內政部也好我們一起來努力加速推動民眾對於這方面的需求其實因應期盼那我們希望速度可以再更加快好 那另外最後一項就是我們"},{"start":5522.256,"end":5543.97,"text":"還要強化學區周邊道路的安全設施我們對於強化學區周邊道路安全設施我們必須針對學區周遭的路段或是接送區沿線就應該要設置減速丘了然後針對學區周邊的人行創業道要設置庇護島以及入口來設置黃狀的路檔"},{"start":5547.011,"end":5554.458,"text":"那協調有空間的校區在交通動線以外的地方設置安全接送區或者是封閉的車輛進行區來提供"},{"start":5558.381,"end":5577.776,"text":"僅僅提供這些接送者的進入那當然我們交通部跟內政部有一個校園周邊及行車安全道路的改善計畫那內政部是負責校園周邊道路的安全的設計改善那交通部是有補助部分的經費"},{"start":5579.417,"end":5603.733,"text":"而且是有交由各地方政府來執行這個要全力的督促部長來簡單說一下你的目標呢都市計畫區內當然就是內政部跟地方政府大家努力都市計畫區外我們會補助一部分這個部分那我們會來加速這個部分其實是現在民眾特別關注的尤其是通學廊道的部分我們會來加速來進行"},{"start":5605.07,"end":5631.462,"text":"部長在昨天的基層會有初步說明我們對三峽這樣的一個嚴重傷亡車禍之後相關政策的一個改善但是必須在更快的時間之內提出相關的細節說明以及具體的目標讓社會大眾來了解交通部對於相關的血統安全社區的交通安全以及這樣的一個高齡駕駛議題必須要明顯的改善成效"},{"start":5634.704,"end":5643.32,"text":"好沒問題謝謝委員好謝謝我們請傅根齊總召"},{"start":5659.013,"end":5665.419,"text":"謝謝主席 請部長請部長陳部長陳部長 陳世凱部長部長好賴總統520就職週年蘇花鐵公路三天斷兩次"},{"start":5684.978,"end":5713.082,"text":"這真的是賴總統在就職一周年帶給花東人民最直接他的成績單這種痛苦指數標高到無法言喻一個人均GDP三萬五千塊美金的國家竟然連一條能夠平安回家的路都沒有"},{"start":5716.291,"end":5736.341,"text":"本席在這裡很好奇民進黨政府這九年來到底為花東人做了什麼本席在詢問你們他旁邊不要這樣子吧到現在部長還不了解嗎還需要你指導嗎那他當什麼部長呢我都還沒有問問題你們就開始在講 講什麼從去年0403大地震"},{"start":5747.179,"end":5775.501,"text":"台八縣做了四條 四個民粹道來防止落實到現在為止本席請教部長一下 針對台九縣這個要如何回家短中長期的計畫一個月內能不能到花蓮來跟人民做個報告部長"},{"start":5777.02,"end":5790.896,"text":"報告委員您剛所提到的道路的狀況跟人均GDP有多少不一定有相關去年的4月3號的地震委員也感受很深因為您也在現場"},{"start":5792.117,"end":5816.156,"text":"那經過了這一年多其實有一千多次的餘震有千餘次的餘震那在那個路段確實也是相對脆弱再加上最近時常有短時強降雨的這個狀況所以有些土石流的狀況所以這個不是說政府不努力做政府有努力做但是這是一個天災天災在造成的結果我們當然要努力來想辦法克服"},{"start":5816.676,"end":5838.704,"text":"所以跟委員報告這三天斷了兩次沒有錯但是公路局其實相當的努力像昨天下午4點多斷了8點多就馬上搶通我們的鐵路也相當的努力在前天雖然有中斷但我們有用12個小時的時間就已經搶通那今天早上也已經讓所有的車正常在運行"},{"start":5839.244,"end":5866.681,"text":"其實這個部份交通部都相當努力在做那委員您剛剛所提到的如果是台九線的改善的計畫我們會盡快提供短中長期委員講得非常好短中長期其實都要列出來那一個月左右我們把一個短中長期的計畫跟委員來報告那個主席啊本席今天有讓部長充分發言的所以時間上上請斟酌好不好"},{"start":5869.824,"end":5897.763,"text":"剛剛部長講得很清楚這個公路總局的人以及鐵路局的這些維修的這些搶救的這些工作人員他們都非常的勤奮都非常的把自己的生命都放在次要而為人民趕快做好搶通道路的工作"},{"start":5898.991,"end":5927.744,"text":"那個是一線 第一線的工作人員他們做到他們該做的事情本席現在請教的是一個高層的部長 政策指導的部長你做到了什麼不要拿基層的工作人員他的用生命來為人民疏通道路來當作你的遮羞布本席請教的是政府的政策是什麼為什麼要讓第一線的人員要冒著生命的危險"},{"start":5928.968,"end":5958.488,"text":"你的政策在哪裡本席問的是台八縣要做迷隧道為什麼台九縣到現在為止迷隧道要做幾個要怎麼做易崩塌路段一年一千多次餘震本席不了解嗎那你的應對政策是什麼台鐵就在邊坡旁邊一場大雨路就斷了這已經現在是生活的日常但你身為一個高層你的政策是什麼"},{"start":5959.89,"end":5987.01,"text":"為什麼要永遠讓基層的這些搶救的工作人員要冒著生命危險這在上位者的失能才讓第一線的人永遠在那裡做這麼危險的一個搶救的工作一個月謝謝部長剛剛講了一個月本席才剛問你一個很簡單明確的本席講了多久"},{"start":5989.935,"end":6014.846,"text":"講了多久下面該做寒管 該做排水這些都可以去做現在蘇哈公路已經是老生常談本席從來在交通委員會沒有去強烈的質疑你的專業性但是你起碼要有協調性"},{"start":6017.421,"end":6046.306,"text":"要協調性當大家提出了這些民間的痛苦指數以及解決的辦法你起碼要予以尊重把你所有交通部下面的這些主管單位應該來做一個協調本席就照您剛剛說的你們很努力那本席請教一下蘇阿改跟蘇阿安蘇阿安什麼時候要動工"},{"start":6048.735,"end":6077.468,"text":"更覺得源頭就是蘇安什麼時候要動工蘇安什麼時候要動工報告員目前都還在審議當中在哪裡審議目前在行政院審議當中行政院什麼地方審議在行政院審議當中那個國發會已經送出嘛到了卓榮泰院長辦公室桌上在卓榮泰院長辦公室桌上審議多久了幾個月了"},{"start":6078.732,"end":6104.405,"text":"目前還在審議當中幾個月嘛到行政院多久了不知道這基本流程怎麼會不曉得呢委員現在還在審議當中對所以本席請教你嘛當然是可以政府的流程是公開的嘛有什麼好懼怕的呢審議流程到哪裡不曉得行政院哪裡行政院誰可以來審議嘛國安會已經送出了嘛您剛剛說的"},{"start":6106.428,"end":6133.799,"text":"我們需要有協調嘛在這段時間這三天您可以問一下花蓮的鄉親您自己也有搭到啊我們在蘇運整體的計畫也很快速的就啟動三個小時之內就啟動您要到台北也都沒問題啊本席現在請教的你是蘇花安不是本席也有搭到我們會加速來演繹本席確實確實自己上網有訂到機票"},{"start":6134.847,"end":6163.286,"text":"但是到了松山機場因為有更急迫的人 有醫院的需要本席昨天晚上把座位讓給他們我也沒有搭 所以今天在這裡本席現在再一次請問你蘇安的進度到哪裡在行政院的哪一個人的辦公桌上我再一次跟委員回答他現在正在行政院審議當中好 本席讓你看一下"},{"start":6166.068,"end":6174.573,"text":"顏色不同且果大不同蘇發改行政院99年2月8號核定100年1月29號動工11個月蘇發案108年12月20號核定到現在還躺在行政院5年5年多了5年5個月了什麼時候要動工"},{"start":6195.629,"end":6222.038,"text":"講不出來報告委員審議完畢之後我們會加速來動工樹花改已經做好了所有地質調查湧水通通都很清楚第一段做完了第二段是延續的第一段核定11個月動工可行研究第二段現在已經核定了5年多所以不是你的層級可以負責所以你不敢回答是嗎"},{"start":6223.854,"end":6249.847,"text":"報告委員蘇花安跟蘇花改他的複雜度其實相當的不同內容也相當的不同所以所需要的時間當然也就不一樣本席就讓你直接就講明你不了解所以不了解才講這種外行的話嘛並不是不了解沒有關係啦你外行沒有關係但是所有的工程單位都已經核定的東西不要到部長嘴上你自己相當不送出去的"},{"start":6251.195,"end":6274.143,"text":"你自己交通部都已經送出去你現在再來講很複雜本席說從你這裡從核定開始行政院核定可行研究到現在您剛剛在說的歷程五年那就是因為複雜可行性行政院核定可行研究核定之後舒華改國民黨政府執政十一個月動工內容內容不一樣"},{"start":6278.803,"end":6308.076,"text":"沒有關係啦 你在狡辯沒有關係啦 本席在這裡只要選前是一張臉 選後是一張臉我們看一下西高鐵 東快鐵2020蔡英文總統參選政策白皮書然後在你任內 在你手上正式跳票"},{"start":6309.778,"end":6319.91,"text":"選前山盟海市選後你家的市現在也沒有西高鐵東快鐵再過來前瞻計畫前瞻計畫花東雙軌在8400億的前瞻裡面收了269億在前瞻最後只用了62億消失了207億"},{"start":6329.694,"end":6353.054,"text":"報告委員公務預算一樣有支出北京當然支套公務預算不要再狡辯嘛你本來就應該交通部公務預算做的嘛然後你把它納入前瞻8400億說3%用在花蓮8400億的前瞻那請問前瞻為什麼不用在花蓮報告委員這幾年交通部跟中央政府不要再強辯你要把你的協調性拿出來再過來"},{"start":6354.468,"end":6376.148,"text":"前瞻消失了207億選前山姆海市選後你家的市花蓮七個危險平交道納入雙軌從蘇貞昌院長陳建仁院長到林佳龍部長王國才部長因為那是危險平交道而不是城市的縫合"},{"start":6378.376,"end":6401.163,"text":"跟嘉義跟宜蘭完全不一樣 那是危險拼交道的解決問題中央行政院院長 交通部部長再三表達由中央納入 由中央概括承受現在你不能說陳金德一句話 整件事情重來這就是選前一張臉 選後一張臉選前三夢海是選後你家的事"},{"start":6402.403,"end":6413.727,"text":"本席讓你喔 看一看啦到底有沒有良知良能啊 這個政府你看一下昨天花蓮是什麼樣子看看是什麼樣子看看是什麼樣子這樣的路能走嗎這樣的路能走嗎"},{"start":6437.03,"end":6461.857,"text":"要讓我們公路總局的工作人員多麼的危險商會的人無知無能一線的工作人員多麼危險他們的生命財產他們的生命誰來保護用路人的安全在哪裡這還是一個政府還是一個國家嗎"},{"start":6463.004,"end":6490.995,"text":"人均經濟三萬五三萬五代表什麼人均經濟三萬五美金代表什麼代表這是一個已開發的國家這種路要叫人走這種路要叫人走委員這是天災第一時間我們公務局天災兩次於人禍該有的防範措施早就該做好早就應該做好報告委員去年的地震您忘了嗎"},{"start":6492.503,"end":6513.519,"text":"地震很大耶這樣子的天災我跟您報告我是來自於中部中橫在二十幾年前經過九月一到現在二十幾年你該做的事情不是在這裡狡辯是台八本席開宗明就告訴你台八線能做的事情為什麼台九線不好好地去規劃民隧道都講得這麼清楚"},{"start":6514.119,"end":6543.05,"text":"本席好好的 再三地不說到講了多好吃我們尊重工程專業讓他們規劃什麼工程專業本席就是請教工程專業的專家告訴本席的他在這裡狡辯本席再請教一下剛剛幾個部會在講 包括交通部說業務費沒有凍結水電都繳不出來講了很久我一分鐘 講了很久"},{"start":6544.482,"end":6571.484,"text":"本席請教一下陳士凱部長今天是幾號幾月幾號五月二十一號好立法院什麼時候會期開始什麼時候開始立法院本會期什麼時候開始的日期我沒有記得很清楚二月就已經開始了今天五月二十一號"},{"start":6572.864,"end":6592.703,"text":"你們三個多月才把解凍案送來你在演哪出啊你們真的有這麼迫切這麼危急水利費繳不出來為什麼不早點送來呢為什麼不早點送來呢這麼簡單的道理你在演哪出啊委員因跟果要講清楚"},{"start":6594.352,"end":6609.059,"text":"什麼叫因跟果你做你的專業工作就好你覺得應該要解凍你報告就應該送來你不要老是搞一些正式的動作不要在這裡交通部比去年多多少預算你在院會講的多了389億算什麼預算啊多了389億比去年多"},{"start":6616.653,"end":6640.11,"text":"不要在這裡啊 在演啦 好不好那個 謝謝主席啊 本席還是要跟主席商量一下過去225席立委的時候我們可以問到晚上五六點 六七點本委員會10加2 非本委員會10分鐘225席的時候 現在113席4分鐘 5分鐘 有幾地方發生這麼重大的事情我要請這個主席見諒啦 我必須要表達 好不好 謝謝"},{"start":6652.022,"end":6655.143,"text":"好謝謝我們請魯明哲委員好謝謝主席有請我們陳世凱部長請陳部長部長呼吸我們緩過來呼吸幾下再開始沒問題已經深呼吸三次了好我想這個直接進入"},{"start":6680.851,"end":6708.608,"text":"最近大家非常關注的問題因為其實車禍車撞車相關的一些事故在台灣整個是蠻多的那最近連續三天發生了因為包括行車紀錄器各式的影片在網路上不斷的流傳讓我們全民覺得非常非常憂心尤其是行人的部分所以簡單來說近日從5月18號到5月20一天一起在網路盛傳影片的"},{"start":6709.128,"end":6734.043,"text":"行人 甚至有一些在店面 我說我沒有出去走我在店面吃個早餐5月18號在花蓮市早餐店一輛車衝進去13人輕重傷 駕駛47歲5月19號在新北三峽 在國小前面3死12傷 那個真的是非常非常車速非常快讓大家都覺得這真的太離譜了駕駛78歲"},{"start":6736.644,"end":6756.602,"text":"那昨天520搬在台南獄警很多影片新聞也出來了造成了一傷在獄警的一個老街那駕駛38歲我這樣列的這個意思啊事實上跟這個部長你昨天在談的其實有些車禍他一個狀況有時候是高齡他可能是一個"},{"start":6757.623,"end":6783.597,"text":"因素但有一些其實跟年齡沒有關的一些駕駛的行為觀念甚至車輛因素甚至道路設計的因素啊所以看起來這三個尤其在報章媒體披露第一個有疲勞駕駛甚至獄警是不是有癲癇這個我們都還不知道有待查證但是我覺得不同的類型的這個部分有關於說不管是犯罪違法理賠的部分我覺得主要是"},{"start":6784.777,"end":6810.64,"text":"檢警他們會處理那我們整個交通部門有這麼慘痛的一個經驗有沒有我們能夠做的是我們要去處理的一個問題啊但花蓮市是不是疲勞駕駛個人駕駛的一個因素是什麼520獄井獄井老街啊其實坦白講很美的地方那這麼多的這麼多的客人有纜車到那邊去逛街但是那邊的狀況有人行道都沒有"},{"start":6811.52,"end":6837.922,"text":"你影片很清楚其實一半人是走在車道上面那這種狀況就是說駕駛當然不對嘛不夠小心嘛可是我們要求別人的觀光區只能呈現這樣的一個水準或是說對行人保障這個我是覺得我們可以去做一些事情因為它很多老街它有騎樓但是騎樓是為什麼不通呢那我現在針對於中間這一項因為昨天我有聽到部長"},{"start":6838.864,"end":6842.137,"text":"部長你昨天這個有四個方向嘛你再說一遍好吧"},{"start":6843.526,"end":6868.857,"text":"報告委員我們其實有幾個方向在做改革一方面我們將年齡下修到70歲您所關心的大概是年長者的這個駕照的換照的問題第一個部分是下修年齡那第二個部分是加強測驗的項目包含他對於危險的認知的測驗還有他一般的認知的測驗並且強化他的安全教育的課程我們希望他能夠參加講習至少半天以上"},{"start":6869.697,"end":6895.623,"text":"那這個部分是加強測驗的項目那另外就是說針對如果年長者你年紀已經很大了我們會鼓勵他可以繳回他的駕照不要再開車那如果是這樣的話公共運輸的補貼我們以後來提供TPAS的這個補助那另外關懷的對象我們現在就可以馬上啟動不用等整個修法我們現在針對時常有違規或者是事故的第一當事人我們就會啟動關懷那甚至是協助他怎麼樣安全駕駛"},{"start":6897.093,"end":6922.772,"text":"好 因為我聽到你的一個方向其實有兩項包括在駕訓 取得駕照的時候更為嚴謹這是沒有年齡限制的反正大家取得駕照可能是比較年輕的那回訓 對有違規回訓也是沒有年齡分配的嘛 對不對對 這個沒有年齡限制的問題所以你這個昨天提出來的政策是全面向的那我們請就5月19號因為大家最關注的"},{"start":6924.253,"end":6950.905,"text":"幾個孩子的未來就這樣沒有了到底發生什麼事情當然駕駛人現在自己可能也在昏迷還沒有講清楚的一個情況之下如果目前初步來看如果沒有酒駕沒有獨駕然後車輛的問題不知道道路看起來有沒有什麼問題除這個之外駕駛的因素我覺得現在媒體披露的我覺得作為政策未來可以考量一下第一個"},{"start":6952.051,"end":6968.69,"text":"我們目前收集到一個民眾的訊息他是違規的慣犯甚至像下面這張圖是停在人行道我不知道那是不是他固定了車位還是上次五年前出車禍的一個情況那像這樣的一個情況未來會不會在你回訊的這個範圍我不知道要什麼樣的車禍你才會要回訊"},{"start":6973.695,"end":6992.704,"text":"那再來一次 是不是高齡駕駛在前一個路口就已經迴轉倒車 是不是躁逃那這個還要查最後一個可不可能是任何一個身心因素這個我說不準 是不是身體發生什麼事或是心理 是不是看到路就要罵人那種症狀"},{"start":6994.005,"end":7008.755,"text":"那這種情況我覺得有需要調查但是這中間有很多因素我覺得有些政策是不是不需要等到發生的時候也許可以偵測到這個的部分那我現在請問你第一個目前高齡駕駛換照你們現在預計因為明年預計從75歲下修到70歲這是列管年齡的"},{"start":7017.381,"end":7041.803,"text":"一個部分那我們看到其他的一個國家有從65歲開始當然啦也有70歲的到韓國可能對大概65歲就開始大概70那在台灣下修這個符合一般的一個標準但是第二個你要不要一併考量因為現在你還沒還要繼續考量那換照的間隔的年限就是從70歲每三年換一次"},{"start":7042.981,"end":7065.332,"text":"然後80歲會有像丹麥他可能到80歲以上每一年就要去換一次因為可能身體的一個變化會更大那這個部分你們會不會去考量這個間隔的年限會不會一命考量這個我們認為這個間隔的年限要有分級以年齡來做分級那這個部分我們會細部來討論怎麼樣的年齡的分級是比較合理的我們也會跟醫學單位大家一起來做諮詢"},{"start":7066.96,"end":7081.514,"text":"我也是建議你要分級一下分級一下可以參考一下第三個是患照的檢測的嚴謹度因為時間不夠我就直接說了以目前來看因為你們要改變目前來第一個是基本的體檢"},{"start":7082.555,"end":7096.711,"text":"基本體檢為了幾個單位啦包括公立醫院包括衛生所還有部分的一個特別診所目前就基本啦身高體重量一量視力有沒有色盲 變色力 聽力 血壓大概基本的這個SOP"},{"start":7097.672,"end":7124.937,"text":"檢查一遍但其中有一個呢是我們法定規定的說是不是有重大疾病我就問一下衛生署我的天啊你重大疾病你怎麼去檢測因為有一些又沒有拿到傷病卡的可能不見得適合的價值他其實是沒有辦法他說我只能去看目前的部分只能去看那這個的部分能不能增加這種東西不管是身心的這個疾病我覺得你們要一併去考量"},{"start":7125.737,"end":7140.222,"text":"第二個認知功能的一個部分測試三個的部分那我就不要再重複了但是目前的情況總分是22分那你只要拿到10分即可 OK出去開車再開三年"},{"start":7141.502,"end":7164.094,"text":"如果我們考試只得45分給他看10張圖只要記得3張OK 及格那這個部分從民國106年到現在7到8年的時間啦是這個部分我覺得你們要去思考一下思考一下尤其你現在不是要加入這個危險認知對不對對 危險感知測驗"},{"start":7166.895,"end":7192.121,"text":"危險感知測驗但是危險感知測驗我真的一個良心的建議不要再公佈題庫了就是時中大家練了一天來這邊畫給你看其實對啦有意義啦就是你好歹這個穩穩的照抄要抄得出來我理解啦抄都抄不出來太危險了可是你危險感知一個臨時性的他的你知道嗎臨場感你不要又是題庫去練我覺得總要有一兩項"},{"start":7193.161,"end":7206.213,"text":"我們那個有現場測試他的反應速度的那會不會有題庫啊那個不會有題庫啦真的嗎你現在全部都有題庫喔那再來你危險感知的一個部分啊你現在的目前檢測以桃園市113年總共"},{"start":7209.036,"end":7237.176,"text":"有這個特約醫院8311人他去特約醫院檢查啦體檢啦 認知測驗就特約醫院啦他們那個可能服務比較好啦那公立醫院跟衛生所公家單位大概只有7.3%啦現況所以你現在的意思說在決定政策的時候到最終的執行者以目前來看九成都是特約醫院假設你要相關的一些設備相關的場域如果要的部分請你要把這個併入政策"},{"start":7238.257,"end":7247.997,"text":"那最後一個問題部長還是市長你回答一下是不是這個認知功能測驗一定要做"},{"start":7249.389,"end":7274.684,"text":"是不是一定要做跟委員報告一下認知功能其實這套認知功能基本上就是失智的一個檢測方式啦那這個在70歲以上的這一個部分的話失智的一個風險是必須要做考量的那但是這個就是說我們在三個月裡面針對這個整體體格檢查項目跟還有這個部分的話我們整體這樣諮詢一下那個專業醫學會的一個意見"},{"start":7276.545,"end":7305.559,"text":"因為今天最主要是因為你們要做一個決策我才針對高齡提供一些完整的一個建議給你們做一個思考那我覺得現在你們這個法條很多人都以為說這個幾歲要透過立法院修法其實不是嘛這道交條例第79條第一項授權給你們交通部跟內政部來訂定相關車輛啊怎麼去弄啊駕照怎麼換那都你們內部的一個規則你們部行政院通過就可以了"},{"start":7306.339,"end":7326.246,"text":"所以這個部分在過去幾年你們怎麼樣去做我不清楚但是這個規則你們定的規則第52之1條跟52之2條尤其52之2條是針對於普通駕照我們現在在談的不是職業的普通駕照你們很明確的規定喔你現在講感知功能測驗你在這個測驗裡面要加"},{"start":7328.393,"end":7341.633,"text":"那個什麼危機 危機的概念危險感知危險感知危機感知嘛那我可以不測啊 如果你法條我不要啊 我不要選這一項啊因為你法條的規定很清楚嘛做認知功能測驗或"},{"start":7343.596,"end":7364.027,"text":"或提供這個未達失智症終極的也就是說我看你維新你去加吧你再加100項我不做你這一項如果我意思是說你如果法條你都沒有去做調整他可以選A或者B但是我事實上真的蠻擔心的"},{"start":7366.23,"end":7391.945,"text":"現在一般的駕駛你們的一個概念就是說只要沒有中度失智症就可以但是這到底符不符合我希望你們跟專家學著在現在的消動環境你再去這是他們本身一個團體的關懷就是如果輕度會有什麼症狀包括遺忘包括了誤認包括了迷路包括了情緒轉變暴躁有意不定這個"},{"start":7394.273,"end":7411.648,"text":"這個可是現在我們不管的你即使這樣的事如果是輕度一樣可以換照只要沒有中度就可以而且如果拿到沒有中度這個證明的話也不用去做認知一個功能測試甚至你這個的部分我覺得在法條上面"},{"start":7412.469,"end":7426.843,"text":"你們自己的規定啊 不用通過我們是不是完全考量 部長你說一下報告委員 這個部分齁您的提醒很好齁我們一定會在未來在修訂整套這個方案的時候讓它能夠完善齁 就是說不要說讓大家有選擇啦選擇這個選擇那個這個在法條上面該怎麼樣防範 我們會來注意謝謝委員"},{"start":7439.975,"end":7462.524,"text":"等一下林俊憲委員諮詢完我們休息那休息之後開始的時候我們就處理臨時提案現在請陳書業委員謝謝主席 請主席邀請陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":7472.858,"end":7489.791,"text":"委員好部長早安我們看到在前天就是禮拜一的下午就是在三峽北大國小前面有一輛車子疑似暴衝所以造成了三人死亡然後十二人重傷的這樣子的一個重大車禍事故這個車禍事故傳出之後當然舉國嘩然因為看到兩個年輕的小學生這樣子一個年輕的生命就這樣消逝真的是讓人非常的不捨跟難過"},{"start":7501.34,"end":7505.805,"text":"那因為這一個肇事者就是一個78歲的一個駕駛所以也讓大家對於這個高齡駕駛就是有一些關注那確實我們也看到就是有關這個道安的一個統計就是在這個高齡的發生車禍事故的一個數據確實是增加的"},{"start":7523.903,"end":7538.513,"text":"因為我記得在三次委員會報告的時候部長有特別報告說目前的交通事故是下降的整體來說是下降的對 整體數字是下降的可是以分別的統計數字來看高齡者發生車禍事故"},{"start":7542.475,"end":7566.915,"text":"造成死傷的卻是增加的那所以當然這個也就是讓我們對高齡者的交通安全包括駕駛就是有特別的一個關注跟檢討那我們也看到部長昨天傍晚也特地召開記者會針對高齡駕駛有一些精進的一些方案是不是請部長再簡單說一下好了報告委員確實我們對於整體的駕照管理"},{"start":7569.697,"end":7593.877,"text":"我們都要做一個精進的這個努力那其實社會現在比較關注的是高齡駕駛的部分就像委員剛剛所提到的那這個部分我們會在三個月之內會提出更細緻的方案但初步來說我們會比較學習跟參考日本的經驗因為日本比台灣更早邁入超高齡社會他們的高齡駕駛的問題其實也是相當受到社會的關注"},{"start":7594.557,"end":7621.272,"text":"那這個部分第一我們把年齡降到70歲換照的年齡降到70歲這是第一點那第二點我們加強他的測驗的項目包含認知的測驗那是過去就有做那我們現在要加強這個講習教育講習的部分至少要半天那另外危險感知也是我們未來會加進來的還有就是說年長者他的四肢的靈活度的這個測試這也是未來我們會加強的"},{"start":7621.952,"end":7647.831,"text":"那另外其實您跟我都來自中部我們有時候我們的地方比較鄉下老年人如果有需要公共運輸的時候他如果願意繳回他的駕照不要再駕駛如果他年紀比較大不適合駕駛繳回他的駕照的話我們針對這個TPAS公共運輸的補助我們也會做那我們來自於比較鄉下的地方有些地方需要幸福小房幸福巴士這個我們也會加強來"},{"start":7648.792,"end":7652.853,"text":"公共運輸當然就是都必須配套因為畢竟對比較偏向的地方這個對高齡者他們如果還是有駕駛能力的話他們還是有這個需求那我們看到各國其實對高齡駕駛啊他們都都是一樣有一樣這個比較嚴格的一些管理的一個辦法那我們就是說針對在三峽發生這個車禍事故因為事後有網友挖出說這一個"},{"start":7677.378,"end":7689.192,"text":"肇事者其實他有劣跡斑斑也有前科就是說他之前就有不良的肇事紀錄就是駕車衝撞上人行道撞傷婦女跟嬰兒車"},{"start":7692.996,"end":7713.966,"text":"所以就是針對這種有違規紀錄的中大違規紀錄的我覺得說這個應該就是說在換照的時候應該要特別的嚴格因為我們看目前的辦法好像我們我國好像沒有針對這部分有特別的要求那日本這部分他就有就是說有照試紀錄的就是要在特別經過駕駛能力的一個測驗這個我們未來也會加進來"},{"start":7717.407,"end":7740.419,"text":"對 我覺得這一項就非常的好所以這個也是值得我們學習的一個地方那另外就是說因為這件事高齡駕駛那因為在昨天又發生了一件台南的預警也是一個爆衝的車禍事故所以也是讓我們覺得說好像感覺在路上真的是危機重重 沒有什麼安全感"},{"start":7740.899,"end":7756.031,"text":"所以我覺得這部分也是值得我們要去全面的檢討就是說除了高齡駕駛之外對於這個駕駛的一些監理因為其實之前我有關心過這個要價的一個部分就是"},{"start":7757.072,"end":7780.841,"text":"服藥之後就是說有一些疾病或者是說因為感冒就是吃了藥之後可能對一些反應能力會比較緩慢這部分是不是未來我們也要去加強可是這部分應該是要跟衛福部去配合吧就是說對於就是生病剛好有服用某些藥物的時候是不是他在藥袋上要特別去強調說不宜駕駛"},{"start":7783.382,"end":7800.5,"text":"因為我覺得說其實這些車禍事故我們還是要再回歸到四一的觀念就是教育監理還有工程設計還有這個就是執法這個都是要全面去配套的就是"},{"start":7801.421,"end":7810.35,"text":"因為不能只單一個問題就是去解決那個問題我覺得這也沒辦法全面解決所以可能就是要去全面檢討所以就是說就這兩三天的這些車禍事故除了就是說這個監理就是高齡駕駛的這個"},{"start":7817.496,"end":7833.844,"text":"在更精進之外那像昨天的這個爆衝事件有可能它是不是因為有這個慢性病的問題那這個也就是涉及到另外一個用藥的一個問題那還有就是說在這個車輛的設備上因為像日本好像他們針對高齡者有就是補助他們去裝置反爆衝的一個裝置"},{"start":7843.049,"end":7856.605,"text":"可是我覺得這個裝置也不一定限於高齡駕駛因為是不是這部分也可以去普及說落實到這個所有的車輛就像剛剛我們李昆哲委員有提到的這個ADS的這種"},{"start":7857.985,"end":7886.449,"text":"輔助駕駛的這個部分不曉得部長的看法如何其實ADAS的系統我們在112年之後應該新車的部分我們跟歐盟是一樣的同步的一個規定也就是說新車其實現在都有那現在大家比較關注的其實是開舊車的年長者他們的部分有沒有辦法去加增這個我們來研議看看因為每一國的處理的方式不太一樣我們參考別國的模式然後我們自己來想辦法來看要怎麼加強"},{"start":7887.089,"end":7911.959,"text":"對 像這種車輛設備的一個加強就是可以不限任何類型的駕駛人可以讓這個車輛駕駛更安全現在新車都有對 那個工程的部分的話可能就是說針對校園附近的工程道路設計是不是要再去加強再落實我想這個都是值得我們再去深思檢討的部分是好 謝謝部長謝謝委員"},{"start":7924.912,"end":7936.247,"text":"好 謝謝 我們請林俊憲委員好 感謝主席 本席邀請我們交通部陳部長請陳部長"},{"start":7944.844,"end":7972.771,"text":"部長 這幾天 部長好大家都在關心發生在新北市的這個重大車禍它是發生在一所學校附近嘛是不是對 它是在學校附近那我看從剛剛到現在以及交通部在事件發生以後所宣布的我們通通都是針對駕駛人我們不希望這種悲劇再發生但交通部目前所提的對策都是針對駕駛人"},{"start":7975.387,"end":7996.419,"text":"第一個我們希望盡快調查出真正肇事的原因是真的因為年紀太大嗎?是生理的因素嗎?還是心理的因素?因為你也不了解每一個人的身體狀況又不一樣跟年齡又不一定直接相關還有就算你年輕一點胡亂開車也會有"},{"start":8000.56,"end":8011.819,"text":"黑白開車的都有啦你可以訂一個法規就可以減少胡亂開車的嗎當然希望可以降低啦但不可能完全沒有所以我今天要講的跟你討論的是另外一種不一樣的"},{"start":8014.352,"end":8036.49,"text":"就是 那我們要把路口設計好啦把道路設計得好一點啦歐北開車你沒辦法騙人啦但是我們的道路政府該做的 把路弄好的話就絕對可以大幅降低悲劇的發生啦你知不知道 發生在澳門附近學校附近是一個 都沒有把它定義為什麼區你知道嗎"},{"start":8038.342,"end":8045.691,"text":"你可能不了解齁2023年啦那時候你還沒來交通部齁叫做通學區啦"},{"start":8047.093,"end":8069.662,"text":"交通部訂學校附近150公車 依賴 道路 都叫做同學區啦以前學校附近的同學區 哪個部會在規範 內政部啦那有的是交通部 所以很亂啦後來交通部在2023年 頒布一個校園周邊人行空間改善參考指引"},{"start":8070.382,"end":8078.143,"text":"整合很多單位的意見我看你這個職營是北京啦針對好酒瓶喔下到最好最完整的"},{"start":8079.192,"end":8105.277,"text":"但只可惜喔指引就是指引 你沒有強制力啦就心北市以這個悲劇發生我們要去檢討 不是只檢討架數啦 說他規範太老啦他要架就要換怎樣怎樣 你要檢討為什麼既然是學校 老師 學生 家長那些都會很多人在那裡出入你道路安全 你要按照一定的規範來做"},{"start":8107.267,"end":8119.685,"text":"我們台灣的大陸交通相關的規範大部分都超日本那日本的經驗好我們當然要學習嘛日本也有類似規範就設定為一個特區就同學區啦"},{"start":8123.277,"end":8143.787,"text":"所以你要有什麼樣的措施第一個 你絕對會有物理性的設計啦降低它的速度比如說 豪暴公車來 那是在九龍寶庭的一百五十公尺以內 都是通學區所以它的道路喔 日本的顏色就不一樣讓駕駛 開車開到這裡你就知道說 我來到豪暴旁邊了對你啦 它會有物理性的減速的設計啦"},{"start":8152.723,"end":8159.834,"text":"讓你車要開就開不快因為同學區啦 交通部的設計 你有的規範是30公里而已 時速30啦 最高到50啦時速到30是要怎麼開"},{"start":8164.619,"end":8191.986,"text":"很容易操作嘛你就要有一些物理性的東西設計 它不就沒辦法開快對不對甚至有斑馬線 因為孩子身高比較低嘛它斑馬線是電高 給你孩子過馬路的時候 駕駛看得到都是同學區特殊的設計啦甚至啊 路條上做給你寫我歪啦給你開不快啦學校圍牆邊的道路 你看我給你看啦"},{"start":8192.623,"end":8220.254,"text":"這是日本人的設計啦你要學日本就要學好學人家的長處日本把學校周邊的道路你看那個斑馬線顏色不一樣那個道路顏色不一樣對你喔還有一些減速球讓你開不快路彎像這個很明顯那稍微設計一個彎度讓孩子家長平凡進出的地方你速度沒有加快"},{"start":8221.118,"end":8242.736,"text":"今天大家都在這裡檢討教室不是老就身體壞啦不是老就後悔開車啦什麼年紀都會亂開車啦要把政府該做的事情做好啦那交通部竟然訂出這個校園周邊人性改善參考空間規範同學區怎麼做那縣市政府為什麼不做呢這新北區政府很明顯的啊嚴重失職啊"},{"start":8248.516,"end":8275.285,"text":"很多地方政府啦 我相信不是只有新北市而已啦所以交通部應該要把這利用喔 現在民氣可用啦把這些縣市政府喔 你應該開一個專案會議啦檢討同學區啦因為學校周邊是最危險任何國家交通規範最嚴格一定在學校附近啦因為學校一定附近啦 小朋友一定會有家長 老師 所以"},{"start":8276.564,"end":8292.864,"text":"你要把各縣市政府叫來啊大家要依照規範來做啦因為你頂了這一個人的職位而已嘛不然你提高到衛健 提高到行政命令來檢討對各地方政府的補助嘛你同舊機給我做好 我就請給你嘛"},{"start":8295.12,"end":8323.286,"text":"是不是這樣 老部長你幹嘛呢好 報告委員 目前內政部國土署其實也有這麼做他們對於這個地方政府來要求或者是申請通學區的整體的改善計畫的補助裡面都有把這些所謂物理改善的部分有列入重要的要執行的部分對 我們只能盡量要求我再給你看案發的地方照片來看一下學校這個花城橋你要看 你看這裡啦 這人行道嘛"},{"start":8324.689,"end":8351.543,"text":"完全沒有物理性的阻隔嘛所以你們要去弄到這哪裡 這哪裡 你看他稍微做半套的通學區啦 你看一般也是顏色不一樣對不對問題是他沒有聯合安全維護性 那個所謂我剛才你看那個物理性的設計嘛那完全沒有啊這邊啊 這邊啊這個是清災 交差了事嘛我們再看下一張給你看"},{"start":8353.567,"end":8373.468,"text":"標線型的人行道就是為你投卡動作人行道你倆的物理性阻隔做不一樣嗎對物理性的阻隔的部分內政部國土署他們最近也會來研議這個問題未來對地方的這些改善然後你們就去趕快要利用這段期間限制政府會乖乖做的時候趕快去做出該做的事情"},{"start":8374.537,"end":8391.223,"text":"另外換照 檢討老人確實我們對老人價值大家 部長你自己也有說因為台灣是個高齡化社會 台灣的老人價值會快速的增加現在一百八十幾萬 十年後就變兩百八十萬"},{"start":8393.829,"end":8416.319,"text":"十年內會增加一百萬七十歲以上的老人駕駛啊所以對老人駕駛日本就有針對這個地方有做很完整的政策規範台灣都抄日本那你就抄好報告員目前就是學習日本日本的高日本還有全世界駕照沒有在換照我看台灣是很少數國家之一啦你有沒有知道我們古北高腳"},{"start":8419.602,"end":8439.787,"text":"18歲那你目前規定幾歲換照有效期限都五十幾年75歲所以如果我18歲考上駕照我到75歲我才需要換照我可以去看一些新的交通規則這當中那漫長的五六十年有什麼新的交通規定號誌標線啊"},{"start":8442.008,"end":8457.855,"text":"都要你有注意啦不然你都不知道18歲到75歲就算你把他降到70歲啦也是很久啦對不對18歲到75歲你才可能有機會去碰觸到新的交通規定"},{"start":8459.261,"end":8479.285,"text":"要有一些新的耗資 他們說我們可能開車機會比較少你現在做部隊 無所謂的 你自己路邊注意看一看標線耗資你根本看不到 跟你以前考駕照 炸了天差地遠啊所以日本喔 日本的駕照有分級 有分性啦它有綠色駕照 藍色駕照 金色駕照 細節我沒時間講啦"},{"start":8482.606,"end":8493.316,"text":"你不要因為一個車 你的頭痛醫頭 腳痛醫腳你如果要頂這個換照制度 你頂得好誰換照你本來不是認知測驗 看一些交通規則 不是這樣它日本還有實車測試的甚至於它有專門設計給老人開的車輛 來我給你看一下"},{"start":8503.609,"end":8527.366,"text":"一本規範到這麼細喔 輔助車輛限定駕照不是剛剛立委幫你回答的輔助駕駛電腦系統 不是啦這種車就專門設計給老人開的啦他的煞車系統 他的加速系統 他的警示系統都特別設計而且這個腳腳 老人啦 這個腳腳 任何人都可以啦 不僅老人你只能開這種車"},{"start":8530.202,"end":8548.69,"text":"這種輔助車輛限定的駕照你只能開這種輔助車你不能開一般的車因為一般的車設計性能跟這個安全性都不一樣因為有的地方不是都有T-pass可以坐啦對 沒錯你像我們台南正開的路人要坐多久坐公車就很困難啦"},{"start":8552.366,"end":8563.346,"text":"對不對 像這個就可以贏啦這開不快啦來裝避車比較安全嘛 對不對而且他的安全設施很多啦而且駕照是特別的啦"},{"start":8564.606,"end":8586.692,"text":"所以你換照 你要不要分級換照 制度 我希望你能頂幾度的出來啦我認為全世界目前對老人駕駛最先進的規範就是日本因為日本的老人化是世界上那麼重要的 現在台灣比日本還嚴重所以我們要趕快 這方面我們趕快追上來 好不好好 部長 好 辛苦啦 這個一定要做好 感謝主席"},{"start":8595.29,"end":8596.43,"text":"好 現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":8762.91,"end":8763.763,"text":"對"},{"start":9243.427,"end":9258.595,"text":"現在開始開會等一下我想跟那個時間的那個掌握請那個我們大概時間到了就響鈴那每隔一分鐘再響鈴一次那也請那個諮詢的委員能夠控制一下時間現在處理臨時提案請議事人員一併宣讀第一案"},{"start":9275.687,"end":9294.058,"text":"臨時提案1.114年5月19日新北市三峽區高齡駕駛汽車失控暴衝的重大交通事故原請交通部通盤檢討現行高齡駕駛管理機制以及高齡者叫車津貼補助方案包括高齡駕駛換駕駛徵定可撤出其駕駛及反應能力的機制增加誘因鼓勵長者繳回駕照"},{"start":9300.542,"end":9326.769,"text":"並提出配套保障高齡者的基本移動權在一個月內提出報告及行動方案提案人委員廖先祥等臨時提案二建議公共工程委員會及交通部應督署所屬計地方政府交通路政機關建樹辦理採用新型冷辦再生鋪面材進行道路鋪設工程並採用逐年增加百分之二十之使用量"},{"start":9327.429,"end":9356.695,"text":"落實政府循環經濟政策及資源循環利用目標以符合氣候變遷因應法第四條國家溫室氣體長期減量目標為中華民國139年溫室氣體淨零排放為達成前項目標各級政府應與國民事業團體共同推動溫室氣體減量發展副排放技術及促進國際合作提案人委員游浩等宣布完畢"},{"start":9360.358,"end":9375.632,"text":"第一案那個交通部有沒有什麼意見跟主席還有委員報告那針對第一案的一個部分的話剛剛有跟這個廖委員有報告也取得同意就是最後一句在三個月內提出素面報告及行動方案"},{"start":9376.434,"end":9404.891,"text":"OK 同意OK 謝謝 那個第二案工程會跟主席及各位委員報告那有關這個提案 剛剛有跟交通部還有跟政委員 提案委員 政委員報告那因為這個是新材料 那所以建議刪除這個最後一段的第四行並採用逐年增加百分之二十之使用量逗號這幾個字"},{"start":9408.127,"end":9433.096,"text":"刪除 刪除 刪除剛剛報告的那幾個字那有跟政委員和交通部報告過好 現在那個公布完都沒有問題那第一案那個委員有沒有意見沒有意見 OK 謝謝那第二案有沒有意見沒有意見 好 那我們修正修正通過"},{"start":9435.353,"end":9458.772,"text":"好 那臨時提案處理完畢 如有委員對上述提案補簽內容紀錄並刊登公報現在繼續選打我們請黃建豪委員好 謝謝主席 主席我們請交通部陳部長請部長"},{"start":9467.626,"end":9483.196,"text":"部長早部長我想大家還是非常關注昨天前兩天發生的意外昨天也有一起在台南也發生類似的爆衝的狀況所以行車安全跟行人安全的部分都是本席上任以來也非常關注當時我也記得你剛剛"},{"start":9486.218,"end":9506.037,"text":"剛剛擔任部長的時候我也期許說我們人本交通能夠作為你部長認的一個重要的政績我們先看一張圖 這個是我在臉書叫行路無虎口看到的一個圖 剛好在回應這個新的事件那這是一個瑞士氣死理論你看到其實昨天會發生 前兩天會發生這個78歲的高齡駕駛衝撞"},{"start":9510.423,"end":9531.172,"text":"針對性的衝撞不管是這個學童也好還是這個機車駕駛人也好它是一連串的失誤發生導致了這樣的結果那包含說我們現在對駕駛人們迴避的制度那嚴重違規有沒有要太處還有高齡駕駛怎麼管理跟學區道路安全設施每一項每一項我想在不同的單位質詢的時候大家都提過"},{"start":9531.972,"end":9549.539,"text":"相關的建議跟概念但就是可能是每一個段落都有一點缺失缺失缺失最後導致了這個三峽事件這個的結果那我們回到今天討論一個主題我想大家就先關注所謂的高齡駕駛管理因為部長你昨天提到要從75歲降到70歲那我們看到各國的標準"},{"start":9552.23,"end":9576.828,"text":"我想你參考的日本的標準是從70歲開始訂那各國當然都不同的標準我想韓國 新加坡 英國 義大利等等大家都有不同的標準跟規範那義大利比較嚴格他從50歲設為一個區間50到70 70到80 80以上等等的那我們現在好像是只是針對目前是75以上那當然你說要改到70以上這部分我對年齡本身沒有太大的意見要70歲 75歲 65歲 60歲都可以但我"},{"start":9580.791,"end":9591.184,"text":"比較有意見的是什麼是針對這個換照的規定部長你很清楚現在不管75歲或是你要把他下修到70歲他換照的這個標準我們看現狀就好我們看現狀這個認知測驗"},{"start":9598.462,"end":9624.318,"text":"基本上我也做了一下測試認識測驗部長很清楚嘛基本上就是問你今天幾月幾號星期幾你在哪裡然後再來就是問十張圖記得三張圖就可以了然後最後畫一張這個我畫得比較醜啦就是畫個時鐘嘛就這樣然後就通過了我想對 太醜了對不起畫得比較醜但是這我認識是沒問題的所以這樣我就能夠取得所謂的70現在是75歲未來70歲的這個駕照我就能夠取得駕照繼續開車"},{"start":9628.499,"end":9651.624,"text":"那我昨天 前兩天發生的事情之後我想這兩天我也收到很多的陳情 很多的中年子女來跟我陳情說他們希望我們在換照制度上能夠更確實就如同他們 他們也陪他們父母去做這個測試啊有些子女是不同意 不希望他的爸媽七八十歲還去開車"},{"start":9653.407,"end":9669.558,"text":"那這個爸爸媽媽會跟他講說啊 夠改就給我改一下我就通過了啊我就開開心心的上路我就大大方方的上路我加上是取得我是換照取得的但是因為他們有參與到這個過程就是去測試這個過程所以他們知道說這個測試就只做這些測驗"},{"start":9672.48,"end":9694.485,"text":"連新的交通法規包括我們現在強調行人優先人們交通就是文化的問題不管是法規問題還是相關的文化問題並沒有在重新換照的過程裡面讓他重新去受到訓練受到教育他就只是把這個認識我確定他沒有失智確定他有基本的辨識能力他的體檢沒有什麼太大問題那就讓他上路了所以不知道部長這個"},{"start":9695.945,"end":9712.964,"text":"你把70歲降到70歲這部分我沒有什麼太大意義但是問題是這個內容未來要不要調整還是要怎麼調整這個部分我其實昨天的記者會說明當中也有報告過這個部分我們會來做調整包含他的認知功能測驗的內容還有再加上危險感知的能力的測驗這個也會加進來"},{"start":9715.006,"end":9736.133,"text":"那另外就是針對他的四肢的靈活度這個也會加進來那另外委員您剛剛有提到就是說有沒有需要再重新訓練我們也會把講習加進來至少要參加半天的這個交通安全的講習的訓練也就是說他駕駛能力的訓練必須要把它強固起來那這個部分在未來的修正當中都會來加入"},{"start":9736.961,"end":9753.908,"text":"我昨天看到你講的說比如說重新駕駛重新入考訓練等等是針對可能有肇事記錄的人對有肇事記錄的就必須要實地訓練我們會實地訓練就是讓他實際上開車然後我們的這個考官也好或者訓練官也好就會在旁邊看他實際開車的狀況"},{"start":9755.589,"end":9774.38,"text":"那我這個換照的部分我想問說今天換照的部分是對這個高齡駕駛不管是定70歲還是後來會修正系數或怎麼樣所謂的重新換照它是重新就像我們重新考就像我們當年18歲考駕照一樣嘛它是一個重新開始的做法它是只是針對這幾項通過就可以因為"},{"start":9775.04,"end":9787.414,"text":"我還要講其實真的到七八十歲他重新拿駕照的時候他的法規不是全面重考啦不是全面重考就是我們所訂的那幾項測驗他必須要通過他必須要通過通過了之後我們就會給他駕照"},{"start":9788.308,"end":9814.522,"text":"那你們什麼時候會提出大家關心時程嗎三個月之後我們會來提出好那我們先等你提出來我們再來看怎麼檢討啦好那回到這除了個人之外我想很多是政府的工程面我們之前 包含我們之前也提到了包含說緩速坡或是說行人穿越道等等的這部分我們在其他的業務質詢裡面也都提到如果學區附近有所謂的緩速坡那可能以三峽的事情為例即便它是蓄意的"},{"start":9815.622,"end":9829.834,"text":"可能他的造成的傷害也不會這麼嚴重所以到底什麼時候才要真正的把所謂的緩速波 減速波把他列入法規裡面這之前有問過了現在國土署他們有跟有訂新的方案因為其實地方政府"},{"start":9830.595,"end":9851.247,"text":"做這個通學步道的部分跟通學道的部分他們的申請的那個經費是來自於國土署那國土署現在已經有把這個列為是重要的項目他們必須要把這個設計進來列為他們未來願不願意補助或補助多少的一個標準我們希望這個是把它列到法規啦不要說只是說這個政策現在"},{"start":9852.797,"end":9871.583,"text":"陳部長支持 隔壁劉部長支持所以我們就做那未來如果萬一其他人上來當部長或其他人當局長的時候這個東西就不了了之了所以我們需要把它入法有一個指引那主要在市區裡面主管是地方政府那國土署是協助他們補助的部分當然交通部也會補助一部分"},{"start":9872.483,"end":9898.766,"text":"那這個部分其實我們三個單位必須要大家來協商來協議那我們也會盡量說服並且要求他們在物理上面的防範的作為要再更加強那我所知道的是內政部國土組他們已經有在研商這件事情那希望未來更有強制力地方政府有一個可以依循的方向好 主持人這要盡快最後一分鐘 剩下最後一分鐘而已來剛剛講的這些都是物理的問題還有一個就是針對車輛本身"},{"start":9900.347,"end":9925.956,"text":"美國這兩天之前有發布一個規定說2029年他們說銷售車輛必須配備所謂的自動緊急煞車系統當然現在市售有些車子他們已經標榜說這個有自動緊急煞車的功能了所以它可能價格稍微再高一點但是美國是有直接另一個法規是2029年他們所有市售車輛都要往這個方向來推進那這個可能就能夠完完全全的去解決這種蓄意的"},{"start":9926.596,"end":9953.579,"text":"因為我們現在訂的所有法規都是針對正常的一般的普通的狀況但昨天那個 前幾天那個事情看起來很像蓄意但我沒有證據 只是說假設有人蓄意要衝撞的或是上個月發生在其他城市那種蓄意衝撞的那種衝撞路人的這種行為如果今天車輛每個車輛他都有裝所謂的自動警警煞車系統的話他是不是就有機會在物理上科技上來避免這事情發生我不知道我國有沒有去考慮參考美國的意見去做這樣的"},{"start":9954.58,"end":9970.967,"text":"報告委員其實我們現在的新車跟歐盟的規範是一樣的在民國112年開始我們對於新車的這些安全科技的規範有一定的要求這個部分其實已經有放進去所以現在我看大部分的新車應該車上都有這樣的設備了我說自動緊急煞車"},{"start":9973.319,"end":9984.54,"text":"自動緊急煞車當然偵測沒問題吧就是我雷達或什麼會嗶嗶嗶的那今天如果有人刻意的去做這個事情他的車輛本身有沒有自動緊急煞車系統能夠做呢"},{"start":9987.123,"end":10008.949,"text":"車輛技術都是日新月異在這個發展那這個法規也在發展那有關於AEBS的部分在聯合國法規裡面先大車或小車那大車我們導入那小車現在正在導入跟這個歐盟的這個規範是一致的我們希望盡快納入因為我是覺得別的國家既然有這個參考也有這個時程表出來了那我們是不是也能夠快點訂出相關的時程表跟法規好不好好謝謝"},{"start":10017.073,"end":10018.915,"text":"好 謝謝 我們請何欣淳而言好 謝謝趙偉那我們是不是請陳士凱部長請部長"},{"start":10036.377,"end":10054.009,"text":"部長最近辛苦了但是每一件事情我們都要給他做好我想今天早上大家都很關注就是三峽高齡駕駛肇事的問題我也非常肯定部長在第一時間昨天有開記者會"},{"start":10055.43,"end":10083.673,"text":"那有推三支箭呢希望能夠痛定思痛的來做改變因為事情發生了我們要如何去亡羊補牢讓未來能夠不要再讓這個悲劇重演我想這個是我們執政的責任那這個責任呢我想要有很多的配套措施雖然你推了三支箭但是每一支箭裡面的一個配套措施我不知道部長"},{"start":10085.034,"end":10111.951,"text":"未來在這半年內因為這三事件您說要下半年度來執行我們希望115年115年所以115年離現在大概還有半年多的時間那半年多的時間我們如何去盤點如何去找配套又如何規劃時程我覺得需要部長再更進一步的來交代我想國人都在等待這樣子的改革不是只有"},{"start":10113.172,"end":10127.487,"text":"說一下而是能夠真正的執行到位那我為什麼會特別這樣子講這個歡照年齡要不要下修那部長已經宣布了那我覺得宣布了那我們怎麼做做得好因為過去我也曾經"},{"start":10128.588,"end":10142.974,"text":"在質詢台上質詢交通部這個換照制度呢這個我們的監察院就曾經糾正過這個高齡駕駛的換照制度沒有全面實施管理只做半套那現在下修的年齡同樣的我們還是有問題要去面對跟解決"},{"start":10147.236,"end":10162.322,"text":"那如何分階段的來解決管理不要只做半套我覺得這個部長也應該在接下來這半年間好好的跟我們行政單位跟學者專家研議如何的來處理這第一件事"},{"start":10162.862,"end":10189.133,"text":"第二件事情我們要配套就是要鼓勵要讓我們的高齡駕駛長者對交通駕駛規定規則安全的認知雖然部長在三字件裡面提到一個對70歲以上自願繳回駕照者提供T-pass的補助剛剛其他很多委員都在關心的是T-pass是比較類都會或是都會型"},{"start":10189.793,"end":10213.169,"text":"的高齡者比較會使用的那偏鄉地區我們有很多的不同的多元化的一個交通運具的補助來來解決那我希望不是只有這樣子因為更進一步的我必須要提醒部長我們現在TPAS的一個政策成功但是我們並沒有進一步的去盤點運用AI大數據的一個原理去盤點出什麼我們現在的使用者的樣態分析"},{"start":10220.653,"end":10246.505,"text":"我們現在有的都只是一個大的數據譬如說我爬樹到的台中彰化南投跟苗栗地區從2023年7月1號開始約有48萬人次使用T-pass我們的通勤月票搭乘客運台鐵捷運等等3900萬人次是優惠搭車的常客我們的爬樹的數據的掌握度直到這裡為止"},{"start":10247.645,"end":10257.465,"text":"在這個48萬人是使用Tpass裡面到底又有多少是屬於高齡者在使用有嗎 我們有這樣的數據嗎"},{"start":10260.045,"end":10287.85,"text":"這個部分報告員您的提醒其實應該是要做啦我們把它去識別化之後應該要把整個數據去分析說我們使用的年齡是哪些年齡這個絕對我們現在的技術一定做得到一個一個大數據的一個分析來作為政策的依據或是未來政策的走向這個是本來就是現代的一個行政體系該有的一個做法現在運研所他們有一個專案正在做這件事情"},{"start":10289.07,"end":10313.591,"text":"運研所的專案都很慢啦部長我現在要求是你們第一個要有效率第二個要運用科技 第三個要有分析為依據嘛如果當我們說要做TPAS的一個補助那鼓勵繳回這個高齡者繳回駕照可是你在這之前你完全不知道現在在使用TPAS裡面的高齡者到底有多少使用比例"},{"start":10314.972,"end":10318.457,"text":"那你如何去定定未來的補助跟鼓勵那你這半年內做得到嗎"},{"start":10325.889,"end":10346.582,"text":"應該是可以啦應該是可以好不能說應該是可以是你一定要做到因為你已經宣布了三支鍵了其中一支鍵就是要我即便沒有這個數據這個政策還是可以做得到的是好那有數據為依據的話是讓你自己知道說我這樣子補助到底有沒有成效所以第一個如何補助"},{"start":10349.259,"end":10370.047,"text":"我們是針對T-pass的假設目前他T-pass可能要花一千塊那我會再補助一定的金額讓他取得T-pass的那個成本不要這麼高這個部分是我們目前在研議的方向目前在研議的方向就是對於高齡者如果使用T-pass應該要鼓勵他運用這個公共運輸啦應該這樣子講啦就是說不要自己開車啦可以用公車啦、巴士啦、捷運啦"},{"start":10378.45,"end":10391.685,"text":"台鐵啦 我們就鼓勵他用這個嘛 對不對好 那你鼓勵 那所以說就是第一個金錢上每一位高齡駕駛者的只要申請T-Pass的一個優惠價優惠票價再鼓勵他再讓他 比如說他把它台中的話是299那你可能再給他優惠變成250"},{"start":10399.753,"end":10405.997,"text":"是這樣的方式嗎?對,是這樣的方式,沒有錯但他必須要繳回駕照,就是不要再開車跟直行車我的意思是說你要把這個三支鍵裡面的每一支鍵裡面的配套還有補助的方式執行的方式我覺得也都要讓國人清楚其實我昨天有說得蠻清楚這個補助的方式可能媒體他寫的那個範圍比較沒有寫到好,那第二個"},{"start":10426.807,"end":10436.811,"text":"我認為這個宣導的方式應該要更多元跟生活化我在上一次的質詢的時候就已經提過了就是說上次我還記得這個次長還會有說他爸爸也是高齡駕駛要跟他溝通有時候他很固執說不動那我那時候還跟我們的次長講說那我們要"},{"start":10448.576,"end":10468.463,"text":"跟長者溝通就要用他們聽得懂的方式跟語言嘛對不對所以我們的宣導方式要多元跟生活化那以我們現在有沒有下去盤點檢討我們現在的宣導的方式那不是死板板的只是在念法條給他聽嘛那譬如說我們助理我們老人家喜歡看什麼"},{"start":10470.424,"end":10492.675,"text":"那有沒有辦法那個置入行銷是利用生活中的戲劇老人家常接觸的一個管道去置入宣傳我覺得這個是一個必須要用頭腦用心去想的一件事那又比如說我們高齡駕駛未來我們的管理制度裡面是不是針對譬如說五年八年它那無招式"},{"start":10494.156,"end":10504.947,"text":"無違規那我們是不是有一個表揚類似啦 這個都是你必須去想的一個宣導方式讓高齡者的駕駛對於這個第一個交通規則第二個"},{"start":10508.991,"end":10530.264,"text":"道路上的行駛的一個安全的一個規則第三個對習慣不良的習慣是不是應該導正第三個在增進他的知能認知的各項的功能方面呢我們都能夠提供一個安全的一個用路的一個環境而且讓他能夠的感知認知能夠做到"},{"start":10531.604,"end":10547.729,"text":"對不對 部長是 沒有錯 我覺得這個建議都很好 我們都會來參考所以我再拜託啦 其實我接下來還有那個標誌標線標誌標線我覺得 我簡單講一下啦標誌標線是在交通部1月有提一個指引啦但是呢 我們看到1到4月相關的違規"},{"start":10550.942,"end":10568.187,"text":"還是增加了25%第一個為什麼會增加當然是主觀的違規 故意的違規 我不知道或者是我們自己的標誌標線的一個號誌的指引不清我相信網路上大家討論過很多譬如說光是紅綠燈號誌的叭叭咒"},{"start":10570.828,"end":10589.623,"text":"大家看不懂那開在路上的時候我的感知認知哪些燈可以左轉哪些是直行又可以左轉哪些那不行那我這裡只舉了五個樣態每個樣態其實我都不知道這四個燈裡面它的指引方式是什麼那"},{"start":10592.11,"end":10610.023,"text":"我們雖然已經有指引了 無所適從因為不知道 所以我不是故意違規而是因為不知道而被開罰單 而被檢舉這個東西一國多制我是建議部長 你自己可以去看一下你生活中你自己也會開車"},{"start":10612.005,"end":10638.722,"text":"我只舉一個例子你們自己的一個規則裡面214條禁止圓綠燈跟箭頭綠燈同時顯示但是又允許例外設置所以有的會殺人 有的不會殺人到底誰說了算甚至連警察在判讀的時候都會誤判基層員警理解不一所以導致取締標準不同"},{"start":10640.024,"end":10655.627,"text":"這個呢 其實都是民怨之來源那如果為了我們的交通安全那我們自己的一個設施號誌標線 設置設施的這樣子的一個指引我覺得要更明確啦那宣導要更多啦 好不好好 以上謝謝委員謝謝 我們請廖先生 委員"},{"start":10674.144,"end":10679.518,"text":"好 謝謝主席喔 一樣請王部長陳部長請陳部長今天都你喔"},{"start":10683.669,"end":10697.883,"text":"副長 這個當然三峽事件大家很關心那噪音其實到現在都還沒確定因為反正他人也還沒有出院那只是說在大家在猜測可能噪音的時候許多人都會討論到高齡駕駛的這個問題那也在這個因為事件過後被積極的討論不過我們交通部在"},{"start":10704.809,"end":10729.296,"text":"邏輯上啦還是我認為當然社會事件發生之後我們總是要一些回應但是我們的做法有時候還是要有一些邏輯性的根本解決問題比如說你說部長說這個肇事率最高的不是高齡駕駛嗎結果我們卻是調整高齡駕駛的這個換照的年齡那其實這十年來這個長者的身體的健康一定比這個規定是十年前訂的對不對"},{"start":10730.276,"end":10743.336,"text":"那現在75歲的長者一定比10年前75歲長者還來得健康嘛一定的嘛 但是你沒有下修年齡所以有時候感覺是好像好像為了呼應或符合社會期待去做一些調整"},{"start":10745.379,"end":10770.112,"text":"那我還是希望說我認為最重要到最重要的是不是這個年齡重要的是我們的考照制度跟換照制度能不能確保每一個用戶人他都應該要有這個安全駕駛的能力這才是重點這個制度檢測的制度才是重點那檢測制度這個東西我想部長昨天有大概記者會說過我想就靜待你們的一個消息但只是社會期待一定是要持續的來加嚴那我今天想跟部長討論的是後續賠償的一個問題賠償當然是"},{"start":10775.055,"end":10798.501,"text":"賠償當然是這個監管會是主管這個相關的強制險是監管會主管但是強制險強制險會有這個上路是為了我們的交通安全而定的那包括我們的大安匯報也都討論到強制險這件事情所以我也希望說藉由這件事情來檢視我們的強制險有沒有調整的一個必要因為在這一次的事件很明確的強制險"},{"start":10801.122,"end":10808.745,"text":"沒有辦法cover掉這一次的損害相關的一個賠償我們現在看應該不是機車 應該是汽車也是這樣子那我們有三位的A1A1有三位的離開那最起碼就三位了但是我們現在的保險制度卻只有"},{"start":10819.089,"end":10839.033,"text":"每人就是兩個上限嘛 每人200 那總事故是400那其實這個已經都over掉了那我會建議啦 可不可以因為我們的這個強制險的一個調整已經上一次調整已經2012年了那包括它的物價指數 已經可能跟現在都有已經跟不上了 以前的200萬跟今天的200萬已經不一樣了那我想從1998年就有陸續在調整 都有依據物價在調"},{"start":10843.854,"end":10865.529,"text":"那我也建議說經過十多年的那相關的一個強制險的一個精神就是要有一個給付的一個社會的一個保險的一個概念嘛不能over掉嘛那我希望說能夠再做一個調整那另外一個部分是我們的因為我們的強制險是定額的保險公司也不賺錢不賺錢我們不是用賺錢的精神來看它是定額的包括理賠上限跟我們的保費保費當然是有一個會調整啦但是原則上基準是一樣的"},{"start":10873.174,"end":10885.806,"text":"那我們可不可以把我們的考照或者是換照的精神把它移入到強制線裡面去比如說我們換照我們會有一個分數我們會有一個點數我們現在可能是我記得七項評點嘛四點就換嘛對不對那我們以後可能可以把這個Range拉大一點可能100分嘛"},{"start":10892.833,"end":10921.886,"text":"那我們允許你60分就換照我們允許你60分換照 這就是基本但是你還沒到100分你60分 70分 80分 到100分你在強制險可能你在值60分低空飛過的時候你強制險的額度我們可能就不只是200萬我們會要求你提高到比別人高1.1倍 1.2倍 等等的那包括你的分數比較低的時候我們在保費的計算上我們會現在還是會有一些事故率的一個計算或是性別 當然現在性別可能要拿掉啦"},{"start":10922.406,"end":10941.349,"text":"就是每一個人他還是會有一些變因去影響你的保費那我也希望說在未來我們在換照的時候依據不同的分數我們去克與他不同的一個這個繳費的一個這個評點的分數啦這樣的方向我不曉得原則上的方向部長認不認同"},{"start":10942.563,"end":10971.491,"text":"報告委員這個我們要來討論因為這個影響的層面其實蠻大的那不過是一個蠻好的建議這個部分我們來討論一下看要怎麼進行但是您剛剛所提到的這個保費的這個根據我們的物價指數理賠上限這個部分我們會跟金管會來討論來跟他們討論來研議看有沒有要再往上再因為這相對起來是最簡單的因為已經十多年已經十多年沒調了現在來調相對起來大家不會覺得說很奇怪"},{"start":10972.151,"end":10995.557,"text":"那另外一點就是把我們的評鑑換照的制度裡面的一個評分納到我們的保險的一個保費的一個級距標準裡面去看或者是分數低風略過了我們要求他保費提高其實你去增加他就是技術講直接一點啦技術比較不好的你要他花更多的一些錢去繳保費說不定他就不會送了嘛他不開心了說不定他就"},{"start":10996.597,"end":11021.993,"text":"說不定你反而也可以讓篩選到一些他就覺得說我也沒那麼常開車那我何必要繳那麼多的稿費那他的技術可能也不是那麼好所以希望說當然一部分我們的考車制度一定要去精進之外那把它結合到強制險裡面那包括強制險的一個物價指數的調整我也希望說未來我們的大安匯報院長主持了嘛院長主持了那跨部會協調我希望說我們交通部有相對應的一個立場把這個方案都討論進去好"},{"start":11024.754,"end":11026.455,"text":"好那就謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝我們請蔡奇昌委員"},{"start":11049.43,"end":11056.612,"text":"謝謝主席,請陳部長跟...請陳部長觀光署周署長周署長委員好部長無安吼是"},{"start":11068.417,"end":11087.746,"text":"今天剛好速發部也在所以我想我們就可以就一些AI的題目來進行一些探討那我看了一下 觀光署其實也跟得上潮流他也設立了一個叫歐雄AI小幫手的一個平台署長應該有啦 署長你自己測試過這個平台沒有"},{"start":11089.267,"end":11109.169,"text":"我們有請同仁一起測試因為我們現在是希望能夠疫情之後把AI也協助旅行業旅館業希望能夠帶動所以我們自己本身也在試的一個小平台我也知道啦就是說第一個我覺得我肯定光屬跟得上時代潮流"},{"start":11110.111,"end":11119.647,"text":"也知道AI未來的運用可以幫忙大家做很多的事情所以你們也開始嘗試做一點測試但是這個是上限的平台"},{"start":11120.558,"end":11141.008,"text":"所以我問部長跟署長有沒有自己上去測試過我知道有這個系統但是我沒有測試過我是上去看我上去看過我沒有加入我請辦公室的助理幫我測試一下那我就很簡單的講就好了其實我對這種我都覺得"},{"start":11143.376,"end":11166.962,"text":"不成熟的東西不要拿出來你知道觀光署所代表的是中華民國的觀光產業它代表的是交通部也就是它是中華民國這種強調我們觀光要立國我們曾經有千萬來客觀光署是一個象徵一個代表那我們推出了這個AI小幫手的服務平台"},{"start":11167.898,"end":11189.305,"text":"我請助理輸入幾個東西譬如說第一個我想知道中永和好吃的麵包在哪裡他回答是很抱歉找不到相關的資料你可以進一步查詢各個景點的資料庫喔然後再來請介紹一下永和著名的甜點同樣回答的是一樣的東西"},{"start":11190.509,"end":11212.438,"text":"那請介紹永和的觀光景點其實越問越大啦一樣的道理叫你建議參考新北市政府的觀光旅遊的網站然後問說想要從台北想要台北就簡單講請AI台北進行騎自行車環島應該怎麼安排我們的平台出現的"},{"start":11219.847,"end":11241.116,"text":"三天的行程是還台北市的行程我說台北市出發要騎自行車怎麼還台你們給我的是三天還台北市的行程好那剛剛這些問題其實不要講AI啦我們講到AI實在是太羞辱AI了我們"},{"start":11242.449,"end":11266.524,"text":"台灣有internet之後我們連我們只要在google上面輸入永和有什麼好吃的中和有什麼好吃的我們台中的清水有什麼好吃的我想都可以跑出一大堆的東西出來還沒到AI啦搜尋網站就可以不用用到AI啦也就是還不大需要用到智慧"},{"start":11267.524,"end":11293.687,"text":"只要你有搜尋功能就可以做到我們不夠作業啦 應該加一個試用版因為我們也知道說這件事情我們希望成立一個PMO我們工研院來協助我們那麼現在我們也有支撐會來協助我們這件事情也覺得22個縣市政府做的力道不夠但是六都做的還不錯那我們希望能夠把它串起來我們會加一個試用版上這個 就是說"},{"start":11295.312,"end":11322.521,"text":"部長 署長你們也都知道大家現在可以花錢訂閱CHAP GPT吧對 沒錯你可以輸入它比Google更好用因為它加入人工智慧可以真正的AI讓你排成告訴你哪裡可以你可以去哪裡中午去哪裡吃怎麼它幫你排好了雖然它還是有一點小缺點但是比起過去我們傳統用Google的搜尋它其實好很多"},{"start":11323.908,"end":11353.377,"text":"我的意思就是說台灣一般大家會認知什麼叫AI就他買了CHAP GPT幫你排排好之後大家都還在裡面要討論或者修正那中華民國政府主管觀光的的一個AI平台結果出來的是連提供最基本的資料都沒有我們稱之為代表著中華民國觀光署的AI的小幫手"},{"start":11354.926,"end":11378.739,"text":"那個蘇發部長也在齁 部長你們也在推動政府AI應用實驗站的這個計畫在你的看法交通部啊 觀光署啊 推這樣的一個所謂的AI平台 部長作為一個專家 作為這個數位發展的主管機關 你的看法是什麼"},{"start":11379.279,"end":11402.764,"text":"我想這個方向是對的啦那資料的訓練可能還需要再加強那有一些新的技術像什麼RAC這種技術可以導入可以增加這個網站的使用性這個我們會跟交通部再來合作你們這個實驗站恐怕第一個要趕快請幫忙一下觀光署啦對恐怕你要第一個趕快因為我就幫你測試一下你們實驗站二月就開課了嘛"},{"start":11405.905,"end":11429.338,"text":"對 到今天已經五月了讓我們還看到這樣子因為我覺得這樣的東西其實對觀光署是一個很大的羞辱啦就中華民國的觀光主管機關推一個AI連Google的搜尋入口網站都不如我們名字叫AI我覺得這個是很奇怪的你要服務大家 你應該是怎麼樣你的Data的訓練"},{"start":11431.249,"end":11448.838,"text":"ChipGVT把所有網路上面的資料他都拿來訓練他告訴我們的我們都還覺得不一定很優還要在人工加以優化那現在呢我們在訓練他的方式是只有政府內部的資料"},{"start":11451.143,"end":11475.599,"text":"部長你覺得這樣的訓練出來可堪用嗎我們也在準備這些資料來做訓練所以我們會協助交通部把這個系統的訓練的更好所以這樣子是不合格的我們會再跟交通部所以我沒有惡意啦我只是說署長我們要做我們就一定要有一個基本的樣子"},{"start":11476.92,"end":11501.216,"text":"因為你丟這個出來 只會讓網路上大家不斷地三笑說原來中華民國 光光鼠的AI說什麼叫AI 就長這個樣子台灣人笑完也就算了 我們號稱科技大國 我們還有速發部喔結果我們在國外 如果這個外國人不管他在台灣 他來台灣要搜尋 結果長這個樣子這個"},{"start":11504.497,"end":11521.25,"text":"很好笑啦說實在話所以我沒有反對你做這個我只是覺得做任何的網站包括你觀光署下面你各個相關的這些風景區管理服務平台或者什麼一大堆的到底"},{"start":11521.89,"end":11537.328,"text":"效果如何 做這些東西要進入了一個新紀元 就是AI的新紀元那到底你們準備好了沒有不要齁 這樣有做 這樣丟出來說 我就有在做 現在就有在做這個這個齁 我覺得不好啦 署長你覺得呢"},{"start":11539.856,"end":11565.874,"text":"謝謝委員指教 但是因為我們重點當初同仁提的時候 重點在歐貝爾重點在這個歐雄 也就是歐雄比過去的歐雄能夠更進步一點所以我們嘗試的讓同仁有些這個衝擊那委員提示的也是我們覺得思慮還是不夠周到但是表示我們PMO還要必須要加強那這個部分如果說一步"},{"start":11567.395,"end":11590.232,"text":"能夠來協助我們 我們覺得是更感興趣我建議就是說先弄好再推出啦不急嘛速發部都還在教政府各單位怎麼應用實驗站觀光署要走在前面我沒意見你至少做一個CHAP GPT不要差太遠的啦不要差太遠 大家覺得說CHAP GPT要用錢去買觀光署服務我們不用錢的"},{"start":11591.223,"end":11596.31,"text":"但是他只限旅遊的問題 他沒辦法問其他的問題OK啊 我覺得這很讚啊"},{"start":11597.318,"end":11623.722,"text":"你跟他合作都可以啦就是你怎麼把旅遊的資訊你跟他有一個區隔雖然但是市場人家已經走到這裡了政府機關離人家太遠搞得不會過啦這樣懂我的意思啦好因為時間的關係我只剩下最後一個問題我想請問一下那個現在我們那個訂房率啊現在不公開他的思維是什麼"},{"start":11624.943,"end":11650.942,"text":"並不是不公開而是現在的訂房率被大家誤認為是住房率那麼其實在現在的分析裡面發現就是說現在的疫情之後大家的訂房的決定的時間點越來越晚那我們在15天就宣布的時候其實這種宣布的方式其實會影響一些選擇行為我的意思是說你們科學的認證裡面發現公佈"},{"start":11654.295,"end":11670.374,"text":"公布台灣各個地區各個縣市或者觀光景點它的住房率幾%它所產生的負面衝擊是什麼比正面衝擊還大那是什麼譬如說現在有50%是當天才決定要去住宿的"},{"start":11671.878,"end":11685.195,"text":"報告員當時我所理解的會有這個數據的公布主要是為了讓地方政府方便因為如果說電房率很高的時候他們交通輸運上面要怎麼去準備還有我們自己風景區的那個要怎麼整備"},{"start":11686.437,"end":11703.485,"text":"但是後來發現這個參考的價值越來越低是因為現在大家的定房率習慣上50%的人是前一天才決定那我們這個公布是前15天就公布所以那個參考價值其實是相對低但是我們現在公布的是定房率前三名的給民眾參考 參考什麼"},{"start":11704.365,"end":11728.474,"text":"有哪幾個縣市它的訂房率特別高如果想去那裡遊玩的人你要訂房可能要趕快訂或者是交通上要趕快先準備這個部分我還是會公布那但是其他部分或許可以考慮啦要不要前一天再公布或者是直接住房率直接公布也是可以對對因為我不瞭解這樣的利弊啦所以我今天來特別請教是譬如說以我的消費行為來看"},{"start":11729.614,"end":11752.928,"text":"如果我發現這個連假前兩個禮拜你告訴我哪裡已經大塞已經九成了因為我可以有替代性嘛我一年有幾個假期那我就先挑不要跟人家擠的那我可能對我這種消費者而言我就找不到哪裡是不擠的我們現在前三名比較多訂房的地方我們會公布還是有"},{"start":11753.348,"end":11769.379,"text":"我知道我知道我的意思是說以前全公布我才知道說我的選擇可以選擇不用去人擠人的位置在哪裡那所以以前也是全公布現在你只公布前三名所以你公布的前三名我並不知道第四名會也一樣是不是也一樣擁擠"},{"start":11770.76,"end":11786.618,"text":"所以我的意思是說站在我這種消費者而言我不懂為什麼你不讓我知道最不擁擠的這一個假期最不擁擠的地點到底在哪裡我的意思只是詢問這個所以我的意思是說你們應該是不是在"},{"start":11787.879,"end":11816.028,"text":"再跟那個觀光業者或者消費者之間再評估一下啦到底是怎麼樣公布是最好的因為我也不知道但是我只是站在我這種消費者立場我會覺得很不方便以前很方便以前你們的指標就是告訴我這一個連駕不要去哪裡因為那裡實在是房間也很難訂車子又多所以我會選其他還好這個地方還蠻容易訂的沒有你們這個資訊我只好到處去"},{"start":11817.308,"end":11832.397,"text":"訂房網站去搜尋嘛看哪裡的最好訂就表示這個假期那裡少所以我的意思在評估一下看怎麼樣公布是對消費者好對這個業者也好好不好好謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝我們請徐富奎委員"},{"start":11853.238,"end":11881.746,"text":"謝主席有請我們陳部長請陳部長委員好部長好部長我上個禮拜才在委員會針對我們這個人本交通的一個政策是我想提出一個質詢那尤其我們現在這個人性環境一直在做改善對那當然我們也期待就是這樣的一個改善是對這個整個事故的減少是有正面的注意是是那不過很遺憾這個"},{"start":11882.766,"end":11903.054,"text":"前兩天發生這個三峽的一個重大車禍我想這個也造成一個台灣的一個震驚所以當然部長有在記者會有特別強調這個因為我們現在事故的這個原因還在了解當中那部長昨天也特別強調說這高齡者並不是造成這個傷亡人數最高的一個群體"},{"start":11903.994,"end":11922.914,"text":"那不過這邊我還是要調了一個數據要提醒一下部長不管是這個機車或汽車高齡者的傷亡人數還有自重的人數都是逐年的攀升那尤其是高齡汽車自重的人數兩年之內就增加了一千多個人那不管是機車或者是汽車的駕駛"},{"start":11924.355,"end":11942.091,"text":"發生事故的人數這兩年都增加了將近9000多人我想這個數據非常的恐怖啦齁那針對這樣一個部分那當然我知道部長昨天有做了一個緊急的應變把這個換照的年齡從75歲降到70歲部長那這部分未來有下修的可能性嗎"},{"start":11942.731,"end":11953.808,"text":"報告委員因為高齡者的數字越來越多不是說傷亡的數字我說高齡者的人數越來越多我們是老齡化的社會我們已經進入超高齡社會"},{"start":11957.934,"end":11976.759,"text":"現在開始算起我們已經有182萬從70歲以上的駕駛人182萬人10年之後會增加到272萬人接近280萬人所以這個人口其實一直在增加對交通部來說最重要的課題是如何協助高齡者能夠安全的駕駛"},{"start":11977.799,"end":11991.633,"text":"這是我們整體的改善的措施的目的這是我們的思考那這些年其實數字上我們有看到人數一直在增加那其實是因為母數在增加所以受傷的人數跟傷亡人數當然會增加一些"},{"start":11992.754,"end":12007.275,"text":"那不過整體的比例來說他沒有特別的高也沒有特別突出但這一塊確實是台灣社會未來必須要面臨的一個很重要的課題那這個年齡我們會參考日本我們把他從75歲下修到70歲就來進行換照的動作"},{"start":12010.103,"end":12035.037,"text":"不過部長我個人是這樣認為啦當然有些長者我們也不希望他去開車或騎車因為有還是有一些風險存在的問題但是就我們現在目前整個交通的狀況你像六都他的大眾運輸很方便他出門有捷運有公車可以坐有火車可以坐那部長常常到屏東我們的偏鄉離島大眾運輸的目前的建制沒那麼完整"},{"start":12036.839,"end":12051.599,"text":"現在連客輛車都判以救你教他們怎麼判知道自己開車或騎車所以我們當時我一直強調說怎麼樣去強化我們的這個大眾運輸的工具甚至我們都有請公務局研議這客輛車能不能開放多一點這樣有車廂救啦真的要不然"},{"start":12053.462,"end":12082.624,"text":"你沒有開放這樣的政策長者只好自己冒險開車或騎車啦這是一個大問題啦這部分有沒有檢討的空間報告委員這個部分確實分兩個部分一個部分是還在駕車有駕車需求或騎車需求的我們怎麼協助他讓他有更多的安全認知讓他有更多的危險認知然後讓他有更多的安全教育的模式進來先協助他啦協助他怎麼樣安全駕駛這是一塊我們要做的"},{"start":12083.044,"end":12109.079,"text":"那另外一塊就是偏鄉的這個交通的部分公共運輸要怎麼樣加強我們當然現在都市裡面公共運輸比較完善但是鄉下確實也是遇到這樣的問題我們當然要來改善所以幸福巴士跟幸福小房的建置對我們來講就相當的重要讓我們的長者能夠很方便的取得公共運輸的時候他自己開車跟騎車需求才可以降低這個部分兩個部分都要同時來檢討跟進行才有效"},{"start":12110.86,"end":12128.747,"text":"對 部長我知道你們都有心要做但是我們也希望把KPI訂出來啦是是是尤其是我們這個屏東這個資源那麼有限的狀況之下到底多久能夠把這個路線包含這個期程規劃出來我想也希望給我們一個一個月之內給我們一個完整的一個報告好不好好 好"},{"start":12129.287,"end":12155.816,"text":"是針對這個公共運輸的對 是怎麼樣去禁止這樣的一個大眾運輸還有幸福小黃跟幸福巴士目前的涵蓋率已經到了94%啦對 但是路線的部分還是不足啦可以再加強 這個可以再加強對 因為小黃公車使用率很高但是畢竟不是大街小巷 大家坐在同一個地方我們現在有比較用預約式的方式啦讓大家比較靈活一點來解決這個班次不足或者是路線不足的問題"},{"start":12157.149,"end":12179.702,"text":"部長那另外我想我們交通部投入了將近48億改善校園周邊的一個交通但是我們進捐基金會針對這個學校的抽樣也發現這個不及格的分數還是都不及格所以這個表示我們這個整個校園的這個交通環境有改善的空間那當然目前我們大概這個三峽事故發生之後"},{"start":12180.362,"end":12205.124,"text":"由警方來協助做一個學童的一個教管但這個畢竟不是長久之計因為警察還是有他的勤務在要職責在身上那所以未來怎麼樣針對校園安全部分交通部有沒有什麼樣的策略報告委員這個部分其實內政部國土組織比較主要負責的單位那我所知道他們現在也已經有在研議相關的一些設置的條例做通學步道"},{"start":12205.744,"end":12222.707,"text":"通學步道的部分有國土署他們有在努力在做這方面的規劃那也跟地方政府正在溝通包含他們未來的通學步道補助的方案裡面一定會把一些項目硬體建設的項目列為重要的KPI這個部分他們正在做"},{"start":12223.328,"end":12248.528,"text":"好 謝謝部長那這邊還是要跟部長拜託一下我們今年恆春建廠150週年如火如荼尤其我們今天已經進入到五月了還有剩下半年的時間我想部長在交通委員會考察也看到了我們縣政府的努力那我們上個禮拜我們在小琉球縣政府也辦了一個留住你的音樂會登島有一萬兩千多人"},{"start":12249.449,"end":12261.497,"text":"所以我想我們希望未來 捧館處也好 觀光署也好跟縣政府我們緊密合作把這個建成150兆元的活動可以辦好好 我會請觀光署盡量協助好 謝謝 部長請回那我最後一個問題請教一下蘇衛部長 謝謝"},{"start":12272.472,"end":12290.884,"text":"我們知道我們都有在補助這個我們的這個年輕朋友他們在研發一個遊戲不過我們有發現我們有補助的一個叫做百劍討邀傳奇壇這個案子他拿到了將近300萬的補助但是在台灣的售價卻遠遠高過於這個日本跟韓國最後讓台灣的這個"},{"start":12294.306,"end":12311.683,"text":"遊戲組不能接受那為什麼有這樣一個狀況對那個這個我們補助是他的創招創新部分後面行銷跟那個我們其實在這個階段並沒有進去輔導那這個部我請那個素產署以後怎麼去改善好那我再問最後一個重要的問題"},{"start":12313.064,"end":12325.23,"text":"那更遺憾的就是這個遊戲的爭議這遊戲公司前幾天又突然發出一篇聲明他被認為把台灣跟香港形容成國家要向中國大陸道歉這個事情更不能發生這個說明一下"},{"start":12331.029,"end":12347.646,"text":"跟委員報告就是這個補助的話當然是補助研發至於說他的定價他可能是當地的經濟狀況或者是說他跟當地的代理商討論這個我們的了解是這樣他的意識形態問題怎麼解決"},{"start":12349.865,"end":12375.553,"text":"如果說是一些他後來行銷的一些語言上面的狀況我們會再跟我們的遊戲業者這邊來說明來提醒他不要有相關的行為我想這是一個很嚴肅的一個課題啦我想蘇惠博也應該拿出一個態度我想這關行銷部分我們以後會加強關鍵因為這個東西確實在我們目前補助並沒有對他後面的行銷並沒有去有任何的措施這個看怎麼樣"},{"start":12376.553,"end":12389.925,"text":"好 部長那最後今天解凍案如果通過之後對我們整體的業務會不會能夠繼續推動當然幫助很大啦因為我們被刪了蠻多的我們就盡量努力把它解凍我們會有很多工作需要委員們的支持好 謝謝"},{"start":12413.552,"end":12421.258,"text":"我們有請許智傑召委發言謝謝主席 我們請部長陳部長委員好"},{"start":12430.046,"end":12445.807,"text":"部長我盡量說短時間那個高雄機場我們這個東側停車場動工這個謝謝交通部門很辛苦不過我還是要提醒一下部長就是說是不是這個民航局跟觀光署"},{"start":12446.608,"end":12462.533,"text":"其實可以一起思考啦其實我們每一次都是做一部分但是另外一部分你比如說新加坡這個五號客運大樓他們已經動工了你可以看到其實新加坡這個張宜機場他們還可以看到迪士尼"},{"start":12464.414,"end":12485.376,"text":"然後還有那個雪山樂園很豐富啦那也就是說在他們在動工的時候事實上這些東西都一併考量進去然後你看泰國那個東部航空城他們也正式啟動了那他們要蓋的這個烏塔堡國際機場呢他跟東部航空城是合在一起一個計畫"},{"start":12487.057,"end":12511.385,"text":"也就是說我今天除了民航的需求我觀光的需求我這個都會一起思考我是建議就是說就是有時候跨部會或者是跨局處事我是希望說我們除了部長能夠要求之外也請局長署長師長們就盡量去做這樣子一個聯合的思考比較不會都是做一部分啦那就像我那天有提到的那個BOT那個"},{"start":12513.886,"end":12528.547,"text":"就是只顧B OT就不管了那後來要OT就OT不出去了所以像這個東西有時候必須要一起來思考那除了這個之外我想我們這一個先給"},{"start":12529.844,"end":12552.584,"text":"那個部長跟大家一個提醒之外你可以看到這個高雄跟松山機場不一樣的地方就是在這個AI的應用現在這個AI的時代大家都在用啦這個智慧機器人跟那個智慧的導覽系統這個部分松山機場有做但是高雄機場還沒有做那有沒有辦法做"},{"start":12555.166,"end":12580.978,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們現在南北雙空港的這個政策非常清楚所以南部的空港對我們來說也是相當的重要那北部有的我們就在演繹南部也一定要有高雄機場我們會當然現在正在改制當中但是就現有的這個區域跟範圍我們來做這個這個方面的演繹這個是沒有問題現在就要給部長跟局長跟大家一個觀念現在正在擴建"},{"start":12582.038,"end":12605.086,"text":"擴建的當中如果你沒有把這些東西附帶的一直想進來大家說我就在企業 企業好 企業好16年了所以在這個過程當中我希望說就是現有的區域先加強對 就部長 局長 包括機場的主任這個都必須更積極的去把這些配套一起思考那"},{"start":12606.192,"end":12614.637,"text":"我再講一個這個很簡單的東西那個小港機場那個外籍航空說高雄飛香港的航線他們想要換大會區"},{"start":12616.348,"end":12638.293,"text":"我們爭取了半天都爭取不來你看我那一天去東京做那個台日交流我就正好坐到這個皮卡丘的飛機就覺得很興奮啊這個我們爭取好久啊已經開航我們爭取彩繪機爭取大飛機就是很努力啊但是呢現在人家要換大飛機我們高雄航空中收不同意"},{"start":12639.485,"end":12664.444,"text":"包委員不會不同意啦只是時間帶大家微調一下他們目前有來詢問那我們希望他時間帶稍微微調一下因為還有其他的航班不會不同意喔那個局長也在旁邊跟部長兩個一起答應的不要到時候又有問題好那最後一個我想這個都是小問題但是都解決不了不知道為什麼那個我們機場計程車有這麼困難嗎"},{"start":12668.373,"end":12670.553,"text":"是不是我請局長回答一下好不好"},{"start":12672.857,"end":12697.637,"text":"有關維園垂巡的排班計程車的部分那我們也是會考慮就是說要再增加那我們會照這個程序來做處理一個月我們把規劃時程 因為要公告要公告然後才能領選 然後審查要這麼久喔對那本來不是已經公告處理就照表了三八年四年變四八年這樣有這麼困難沒有 要增加還是要再走程序"},{"start":12698.357,"end":12715.961,"text":"那我們把時程更換給委員我只是把這個問題也讓部長知道啦就是說高雄機場的速度我覺得有意見是是是所以應該要更積極請部長跟局長多加要求這樣好不好好速度要加快沒有問題好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":12731.892,"end":12740.134,"text":"我以身作者時間內結束希望大家盡量幫忙控制時間好我們現在請邱若豪議員主席謝謝有請陳士凱部長好請陳部長"},{"start":12755.56,"end":12755.84,"text":"董事長"},{"start":12785.94,"end":12801.108,"text":"那部長當時你當天也說會回去再研議嘛那很一樣還有痛心的事我們看到那事隔11天本週一在新北市三峽發生重大的車禍事故三人不幸罹難12多人受傷那大多數都是國中小學生"},{"start":12801.468,"end":12829.251,"text":"那七十八歲駕駛他在三個月前剛完成換照短時間內又釀成三十十二傷的重大事故那交通部昨天也召開記者會嘛那有宣布七十五歲換照下修至七十歲預計明年上路也針對駕駛的駕照管理發布三個策略那第一個是考試加嚴然後增加鑑別度然後還有建立回訊的制度加強安全意識還有換照制度的改革那相信交通部目前也正在還有正在規劃中嘛"},{"start":12829.992,"end":12847.289,"text":"那大概多久會有具體的做法報告委員我們三個月之後會提出換照制度改革的具體的這個方案那也請部長說明那這個分別的主事單位是這三個這三個應該都是公路局都會是在公路局嗎對"},{"start":12848.669,"end":12863.222,"text":"OK 好 那目前因為我們看到工作局的規定75歲以上的駕駛人他換照需要經過體檢然後還有視力 辨色力還有聽力 視知活動能力還有其他就是其他的重大疾病評估然後進行認知測驗那"},{"start":12865.804,"end":12886.876,"text":"實務上部長您認為這樣的制度真的能夠篩檢出高風險的駕駛人嗎是 報告委員所以我們現在整個改革的機制裡面其實我們有加了其他的危險認知的部分危險感知的部分那另外我們對於試支是否健全以外它是否靈活活動度的部分我們也會進行測驗跟測試這項測驗是由誰來做測驗"},{"start":12888.977,"end":12904.151,"text":"我們到時候會跟目前我們是找診所診所在做包含衛生署也都有做我們是重新來設計這套鑑定的檢測標準嗎它是否還是最低門檻我們會不會還是它只是加嚴"},{"start":12905.99,"end":12929.516,"text":"當然啦報告委員我們整體的這個危險感知的部分也會加進來所以整套的這個設計我們三個月之後會提出一個系部跟委員再來報告那北京在上一次有針對就是桃園巴德他這個事故有詢問過部長駕駛如果他是證實因為身體突然不適然後導致事故當時也有問過部長那交通部和衛福部有沒有"},{"start":12930.816,"end":12954.582,"text":"當時您交通部的回覆是沒有既有的聯防機制那經過這次事件後交通部和衛福部會建立什麼樣的機制因為未來我們的整體的改善的機制其實跟衛福部也相當相關包括我們在體檢的部分我們也希望說衛福部也可以幫忙因為現在衛福部有一個老人的免費健檢那我們希望把安全駕駛的這個健檢的項目能夠放進去那未來我們會盡量跟他們連線我們其實應該有開過會有溝通過吧"},{"start":12958.263,"end":12984.411,"text":"那跟衛福部那邊連線就是說有哪些人是吃藥哪些藥物會造成價錢的影響是什麼時候開會的跟我們報告一下剛剛委員所提到大概是資訊借接的這個部分吧是什麼時候開會的資訊借接的部分在公務局跟我們報告一下這個東西有一個處罰條例資訊回答我的問題嗎 什麼時候嗎應該是千年"},{"start":12990.342,"end":13002.419,"text":"113年因為現在衛福部不管是我們國內的健保資料庫還是公路駕駛系統還有身心障礙的通報平台都已經數位化多年了難道交通部不能直接和衛福部討論嗎看我們是不是可以建立一個聯防機制"},{"start":13003.844,"end":13025.123,"text":"已經討論了 那這個東西必須要有這個那再請提供當時的討論結論已經在修那個處罰條例增訂第92條現在已經在這個行政院了或是要送到這個立法院來部長我們接著看到我們就是在高齡長者換照的時候他我們必須要進行這個認知的功能測試那部長您知道有幾個測試嗎也知道總共有幾項"},{"start":13030.416,"end":13047.027,"text":"三個 有三項嘛那這是第一項和第二項的那您認為這個測試的目的是什麼報告委員這個是針對他的認知包含空間的認知時間的認知還有他的坦白說啦是記憶力啦因為我們是針對他是否失智的這個狀況我們在做測試"},{"start":13049.218,"end":13066.589,"text":"是這個狀況那你認為這個足夠嗎報告委員我們這個有一個醫學的諮詢委員會當時是跟交通安全的這個醫學諮詢委員會裡面的專家跟學者包含醫生各科的醫生大家所研擬出來的因為60歲到80歲是退化最快的"},{"start":13066.849,"end":13088.264,"text":"一個階段嗎那我們是不是要再跟衛福部共同來就是研議提升測試的難度還有精準度報告員剛剛的這一套其實是日本現在也是在用的連日本的這個整個測試也是用這個但未來我們還會再加強例如說危險感知的部分也會加強還有安全的這個駕駛的這個講習他的觀念的講習我們也會來加進來那針對有肇事的人他的實地的訓練我們也會來加強"},{"start":13095.031,"end":13114.558,"text":"好 那本席今天也向部長提出建議就75歲以上的駕駛人 我們是不是可以他的換照頻率我們從三年一次 然後調整每年一次呢我覺得我們可以去討論啦就是說分年齡用不一樣的級距下去讓他有不一樣的頻率這個部分我們來檢討OK 好 謝謝部長好 謝謝委員好 謝謝我們請宗教編委員"},{"start":13138.629,"end":13150.189,"text":"好 謝謝主席蔡常委員先進列席總統官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者林志先生有請我們陳部長跟預言所的林所長請陳部長公務局局長剛才的林所長也請準備好"},{"start":13156.951,"end":13175.103,"text":"部長好還有所長好來今天的問題大家都問過很多了我就很快的迅速的來進行一下來下一張這是昨天事故的現場那我們把它回顧到原來淨空的畫面這就是事故現場的道路部長看起來有沒有任何的道路安全的防護措施您覺得有嗎"},{"start":13176.176,"end":13204.247,"text":"報告委員他這個看起來是會有行人專用實相的措施然後斑馬線上面也有特殊的這個顏色特別的顏色但是對不起應對昨天的那種事故狀況這樣的一些措施只是行人被注意到但是對於車輛的速度或者暴衝的情況他有沒有防護的效果包括我看到這些都是顯示的嘛這些緩衝感也是顯示的嘛好我們來看一下這是日本學校周邊的道路規劃"},{"start":13205.487,"end":13229.589,"text":"部長或者是你們的局長有看過這樣的規劃嗎譬如說他們除了路面的塗裝之外他們除了一個進來的停車彎之外他們事實上在十字路口做了一些減速的設施然後他也把道路刻意的窄化讓車流速度降緩請問部長或者局長您認為這樣有幫助於道路學校周邊道路的安全防護嗎"},{"start":13230.45,"end":13252.923,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們確實在運營所所這一個訂定的這一個校園桌邊行人安全感染指引我們是有參考日本韓國就包括委員剛才這邊所秀出來的這些優良的一些值得借鏡的作法我們都有放在這個參考指引裡面參考指引部長也就是說這個需要我們儘速加快去推動可以嗎"},{"start":13254.143,"end":13276.99,"text":"好的做我們趕快去做這個部分我們其實都有指引出來那國土署內政部國土署其實他們主要有負責這個業務所以我也會去要求內政部國土署我們兩個部會配合好不好好我們努力的把它改善來下一頁好剛剛也很多委員問到了高齡換照不考駕駛能力我們換照不管什麼原因換照是不是考這三個認知能力"},{"start":13278.144,"end":13306.27,"text":"認知能力是用這三個題目好那只有這三個嗎局長您目前的換照的措施有包含哪些目前就是說高齡換照包括體檢還有認知功能測驗那認知功能測驗裡面有三個程序對那就是第一個就是時間空間第二個就是記憶力第三個就是這個協調好很好來部長其實我們看日本怎麼做其實剛剛聽起來的不免家裡有長輩的可能會覺得好像"},{"start":13307.527,"end":13332.178,"text":"這個也是巴士量表其中的類似的做法但是我們看一下在日本他有分成兩個年齡層那如果你是叫年輕的你會有一個培訓課程然後就直接換發駕照通過後就換發駕照但是如果叫高的年齡的他會有個認知測試這個認知測試就跟剛剛講的一樣但是重點是什麼不是測試完了就沒有了他有什麼培訓課程包括"},{"start":13333.199,"end":13336.929,"text":"說明駕駛的實際能力的車輛測試目前我們有做到這個嗎"},{"start":13339.022,"end":13366.276,"text":"局長有沒有培訓大概就是跟我們現在的一般的授訓講習那是指考照前換照的過程會有需要的兩個嗎換照目前還沒有對 部長這就是原因所在我當然知道交通部很及時的回應社會的一些感覺但是呢好像你們只是把它停留在原來較高齡的認知測試的年齡往下調我們新的方案裡面其實都有加入講習"},{"start":13367.116,"end":13384.284,"text":"有加入了 新的方案有加入了那趕快跟社會宣布有宣布了 至少半天的講習那有包括實際的車輛測試這個如果是肇事的紀錄有肇事紀錄的年長者他們就會加入實地的訓練很好 所以這個要宣布讓大家知道再往下看"},{"start":13384.804,"end":13402.219,"text":"那其實剛剛也有委員問到的用藥的問題啦我們知道喝酒 酒後不能開車有沒有聽過吃藥後不能開車的我不是講毒藥喔這個當然有影響我們也知道隨著年齡的增加我們可能長者會有經常要用藥的需求"},{"start":13402.819,"end":13429.52,"text":"那不同的藥物會產生不同的影響力所以呢有人都說包括降血壓啦止痛啦都有可能會妨礙你本來是可以正常駕駛的可能會造成你的能力的下降有沒有這個可能性有可能好那所以說呢我們未來希望你們的精進的換照的制度除了包括認知除了包括實際操控能力是不是也要增加一個包括可能的一些建議用藥指引的建議剛剛有委員問到可以嗎"},{"start":13430.387,"end":13434.174,"text":"我們跨部會的溝通我們會來啟動那就請衛務部進來協助我們最後的結論很簡單的說另外一個就是強車險"},{"start":13440.015,"end":13462.334,"text":"強車險目前是經管會那邊配合在推動那麼交通部過去對一些有造成風險可能的強車險的目的不是是幫助受害者去填補風險但是以昨天的例子萬一啦萬一我是開車的家長我的車有保強車險 一定有嘛我的在者小孩在車內 我被撞了"},{"start":13463.444,"end":13491.803,"text":"我受傷有賠我的強撐有包含我但是不包含乘客險這個部長知道嗎是這是我的小孩受傷了我車的強撐險因為我沒有肇事責任所以在無肇事責任的情況之下我的強撐險只保障駕駛本人不保障乘客您覺得這樣的保障夠不夠萬一類似的情況有造成肇事的車輛衝擊其他無肇事責任的車輛造成裡面的駕駛跟乘客受傷卻沒有得到強撐險的保障您覺得這個需不需要補強"},{"start":13492.588,"end":13517.49,"text":"包委員我們針對大車的部分有啦運輸業有運輸那是因為他職業運輸嘛那如果是自小客的部分自小客的部分他應該可以自己加保好您說的這是一個部分所以我的結論所以說其實目前上一頁上一頁我們說其實大部分的被保險人大部分的車主他買他說有強車險的時候他以為我只要有受傷我就可以賠我的乘客也可以賠錯"},{"start":13518.331,"end":13536.096,"text":"如果你是被撞你沒有造成責任車上的乘客是不賠的這個部分呢委員會要求金管會趕快的去補強那也就是未來交通部在相關的對駕駛人的指引上告知他這一點他在投保的時候他如果覺得保障不足要自己額外加保或者請保險局去研發讓保險公司有新的保單來保障你同意嗎"},{"start":13536.816,"end":13563.023,"text":"你也支持嘛好那最後的結論都很快的講希望在校園周邊及人口稠密地區有些減速緩衝或一些行人防護的措施這個部分呢你們有在做了請你們把它提出來那另外換照的測試項目你們也說了其實有說那就是要加強宣導最後呢用藥指引請融入以及最後呢汽車強制責任第三人責任險的部分未來怎麼強化駕駛人的認知這個部分也請交通部加強宣導可以嗎可以沒有問題好謝謝謝謝部長"},{"start":13574.4,"end":13596.929,"text":"好 謝謝 我們請鄭天才委員好 主席 各位委員 請部長哪個部長 陳部長交通部 陳部長"},{"start":13607.449,"end":13635.389,"text":"委員好 部長好大家辛苦了這個5月18號這個花蓮這個強降雨造成北回線河仁至崇德嚴重的受損這個也還好沒有造成人員的傷亡也沒有造成這個我們的火車的損害這是這個慶幸的地方"},{"start":13636.414,"end":13662.152,"text":"但是這樣的一個強降雨也不是說豪雨那就是強降雨而已就造成他那個強降雨比豪雨還大他三個小時裡面降了一百多一百零幾毫米一百零七毫米三個小時以內主要的因素其實過去北回鐵路都沒有事就是因為0403地震之後地震當下"},{"start":13666.192,"end":13686.792,"text":"也都沒有事啊是後來的遺症非常非常的多讓這個整個山的一個鬆動鬆動所以一下雨就造成這樣的一個情形連蘇花公路也是一樣都受到癱瘓所以這樣的一個情形這個這個"},{"start":13690.168,"end":13706.989,"text":"本席還有我們花蓮台東的立委一再的希望趕快去解決這個問題真的是很嚴重繞台灣啊繞台灣一周我是常常繞台灣一周啊"},{"start":13708.544,"end":13731.172,"text":"交通很安全的坐我也會繞台灣因為我的陝西台澎金馬嘛 常常要坐火車坐高鐵甚至常常坐七間車都是有它的需要性但是安全最重要所以這個安全 然後這個要繞台灣台灣算很小了啦"},{"start":13732.212,"end":13760.129,"text":"但是就是因為很小才交通要給他趕快把它弄好所以這個部分這樣的一個安全回家的一直是我們非常迫切的部分是沒錯本席在今年就指了兩次今天是第三次光今年跟院長的質詢又另外跟部長質詢就"},{"start":13761.86,"end":13775.732,"text":"有關台鐵宜花東地區鐵路設施安全改善計畫4月9號的時候這個還在這個部裡面那現在到底送到縣了嗎"},{"start":13780.733,"end":13796.844,"text":"報告委員,我們現在台鐵董事會已經通過了,之後我們5月1號部也審過了目前還在修正當中台鐵要趕快修"},{"start":13802.464,"end":13813.112,"text":"對對對已經修第二次了這個我都有追蹤謝謝委員所以這個部分要請部長好部長然後送到還要經過國發會嗎"},{"start":13815.309,"end":13837.875,"text":"應該是要送到院這個程序還很多其實上我也執行過國發會送到他那邊的時候我也協調過國發會你趕快送他送到他趕快去協助來去送到行政院所以這個部分請繼續努力這個最重要的"},{"start":13839.115,"end":13864.071,"text":"我的印象是5月10幾號你們修正送到交通部了嘛所以已經20天了部長這個我們有請他們要修正交通部的同仁趕快呈核給部長謝謝這個是進度真的是太慢了另外就是蘇拉公路"},{"start":13865.519,"end":13883.773,"text":"齁 一樣啊 這都是一樣蘇花安 四爺九號也質詢部長啊是是你說我那時候請你趕快跟行政院院長協調是拜託行政院院長是現在還在行政院嗎"},{"start":13885.018,"end":13903.466,"text":"還在行政院 對這個事太久了上次你的答選說我說請部長跟行政院長報告趕快核定你的答覆說好我會跟院長報告再記得要請秘書記得提醒提醒這個"},{"start":13905.287,"end":13927.765,"text":"部長每次行政宴會要去之前要跟他提醒一下這我以前當副主委就是這樣就要提醒這個主任委員我以前當副主委的時候是這樣你看這個看這個時間你看這麼多次了這麼多次了"},{"start":13930.276,"end":13956.785,"text":"所以這個部分要把它當成一個非常非常重要關核定之後還要執行都要很多年所以這個部分務必務必要記得要請副主委今天次長沒有來了要記得提醒跟我以前常務副主委的時候要提醒好謝謝"},{"start":13966.203,"end":13984.91,"text":"謝謝 我們請黃建斌委員謝謝主席 我們有請江部長請陳部長"},{"start":13996.933,"end":14013.678,"text":"委員好部長我們有默契你就知道我要找你喔是是是部長你如果找我今天來找你你會問什麼事情你也要清澈啦是是部長我們的鐵路是台中人外出讀書工作返家甚至就醫最主要的交通工具是"},{"start":14014.418,"end":14034.383,"text":"但是這幾天台東的連外鐵路卻接連發生狀況造成南北鐵路分別中斷首先我要跟台鐵及第一線人員辛苦表達感謝在我們今天早上清晨北回線和仁至崇德之間的鐵路已經搶通東正線可以恢復單線雙向通車"},{"start":14039.784,"end":14058.906,"text":"那不過這些我們看到5月16號下午5點南回鐵路訪山到家路車站的這個電車線端落那大武站到訪寮站大批乘客只能透過遊覽車接駁5月18號星期四下午北回鐵路"},{"start":14059.867,"end":14085.4,"text":"河仁跟崇德之間發生的土石流造成台東往北方向的鐵路中斷原本台東的連外鐵路就是說三天內等兩倍那昨天下午呢然後在搶修過程裡面又遇到了強降雨然後再次的在這個河仁至崇德之間發生土石流淹沒了東西的這個東西陣線等於五天斷三次"},{"start":14086.34,"end":14108.942,"text":"那本席再次強調我們很感謝台鐵跟地線人員的辛勞才能夠在今天清晨恢復這個北迴線的這個單線雙向通車不過我想要請部長你設身處地的想想如果您是台中人只要每到大雨就可能會中斷的鐵路你會安心 你會搭得安心嗎"},{"start":14110.831,"end":14124.75,"text":"而且部長你也知道了部長我們上個禮拜台東舉辦一個很大的音樂會叫動浪音樂嘉年華那一天湧進非常非常多的遊客那如果16號跟18號的這兩件事情發生在同一天"},{"start":14125.931,"end":14150.49,"text":"那台東就會變成孤島直接回去這樣那這樣的極端狀況其實並不是沒有發生過其實像我還記得當年穆拉克的時候本席在大武相公所擔任越顧人員我記得那時候南北鐵路中斷甚至連公路都中斷我們一度只能靠空投物資再撐下去那一直堅持到道路搶通因為這樣子本席到我們立法院來其實"},{"start":14151.391,"end":14169.646,"text":"不斷的跟中央爭取兩件事情第一就是東部人的鐵路平權這件事情第二就是花東快速道路的興建因為我們東部人愛的很簡單的就是一條安全平安回家的道路那很遺憾我們政府每次都是遇到的狀況才開始喊口號那對於這幾天的事故"},{"start":14170.467,"end":14193.112,"text":"本市第一時間立刻請台鐵來協助加派這個加班車還有啟動我們攻略接駁那昨天我們也跟台鐵跟交通部來開會針對我們陸海空的這個運距聯邦機制來進行這個檢討我們務必在最短的時間讓我們這個替代的運距到位對我們這旅客的這個衝擊降到最低那"},{"start":14196.277,"end":14224.524,"text":"不過這個事情之後再次凸顯出我們東部交通的脆弱性那很多台東人都會問說為什麼我們復旦跟西部一樣高的這個高額的台北票價卻要承受這種三天斷兩次的這種風險尤其對於台北廠票價西部還有戈堤 還有戈壽公路 還有K文它有替代的方式台東沒有其他的選擇我們只有這一條鐵公路"},{"start":14225.524,"end":14248.478,"text":"那是不是這個是中央要逼迫東部人接受這樣的結果那在這邊我要具體的請部長來回答針對你之前答應本席會在五月底提出這個花東專屬優惠票價是不是會有新的方案而不是過去那個一趴兩趴的回歸機制那目前的優惠票價部長是不是可以來說明一下好 報告委員"},{"start":14250.182,"end":14257.829,"text":"您在台東也是從出生到現在,您應該很清楚從過去到現在台東的票價都跟西部是一樣的"},{"start":14259.257,"end":14287.851,"text":"所以我們現在要啟動的是第一次史上第一次台東人會有優惠的票價過去台東人沒有這樣子的優惠票價那我們也清楚的知道說0403的地震之後確實整個交通路網的脆弱度確實是有造成所以我們也第一次史上第一次要讓台東人跟花蓮的鄉親都有更便宜的票價那這個票價目前台鐵正在研議當中他們在這個月的月底或者是六月初"},{"start":14288.211,"end":14310.602,"text":"就一定會提出具體的方案也跟委員報告不會是一趴兩趴的這種這麼少 不會這麼少提醒一下部長 部長其實為什麼我這時候再次追問是因為部長因為現在的時間點已經距離五月底其實也很快那我們的車票預購現在28天前就可以預購如果你票價沒有出來這些會直接影響到所以這部分是請教我們部長我們來加快"},{"start":14311.963,"end":14340.685,"text":"好謝謝那主席我再給我一點點的時間最後我要跟部長來爭取就是交通跟觀光是一體的啦那去年年四零三我們東部地震造成觀光重創那後來本席也在立法院強力的爭取希望比照這個花蓮一樣就是將我們振興補助方案納入那後來成功的爭取到這個補助加碼的部分那現在台東的"},{"start":14342.12,"end":14357.64,"text":"觀光旅順業最仰賴目前就是我們暑期暑假這個檔期不過我們現在面臨兩個問題第一就是我們提到的這個目前遇到的北回鐵路的不穩定第二是未來台幣升值之後會不會造成出國"},{"start":14359.022,"end":14382.198,"text":"出國熱門然後排擠到我們國旅的市場像我們從這一次的端午連假 觀光署公布的這個資料就可以看到只有澎湖苗栗跟連江縣有住宿超過六成其他地方都沒有所以本席這邊要求觀光署是不是可以針對我們東部的災情狀況提出研議的這個振興旅遊方案請部長回答"},{"start":14382.638,"end":14411.549,"text":"報告委員我們可能會用其他的方式啦例如說我們用活動的方式去引客那當然交通的建置是最重要的交通的建置要讓他穩定旅客才會比較願意來好這部分我們也會努力那觀光的部分我們想辦法再多用一些活動來促進東部的觀光部長這個都即刻都遇到的問題那台東的產業其實很單純農業跟觀光也希望部裡面這邊來協助我們台東在產業以及交通上的這些改善好我們來努力謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝主席"},{"start":14417.54,"end":14417.86,"text":"謝謝 我們請張祺凱委員請阿辭部長請部長"},{"start":14451.302,"end":14471.25,"text":"今天一整個早上大家都要問你這個三重重大車禍這個事情總統還有專利法院大家都哀悼了那現在最重要要補破網我看今天很多立委也提出了很多的方法我建議先參考國際上一些國家怎麼做我們現在高齡駕駛定的是75歲嘛保健室那一份是多少錢"},{"start":14474.847,"end":14495.873,"text":"我知道而且我們現在正要做改革的方案我們的改革方案就會參考日本並且學習日本他們是70歲就開始日本70嘛對不對南韓更低啊南韓是65歲以上就每三年就換照一次那70歲看起來是最多的啦美國加州也是70歲英國也是70也有一些國家是80跟85"},{"start":14497.273,"end":14523.121,"text":"不過看起來70歲最因為目前是一個最理想所以交通部也往70歲來是沒有錯這個是我們改革的方向好那今天我具體的做一個做幾個建議是所以把75歲降到這個70之外是第一個這個駕照的有下連線本來是三年對不對我們是不是把它降為兩年這樣可以早期發現而且排除例如說有失智的這個狀況或者影響這個駕駛安全的因素"},{"start":14524.455,"end":14531.522,"text":"兩年 也是往這方向走嗎我們可以分級距啦 年齡的級距啦例如說70歲到75歲是一個級距那75歲以上可能到80歲是一個級距我們用年齡的級距來來討論它的頻率 這個我們會來討論這規劃不錯"},{"start":14541.57,"end":14567.558,"text":"就是反正至少本來的三年要稍微有一點要收減就對了另外一個這個是我特別提出來的就不是只有局限第一次滿75歲的我們要針對如果是65歲以上他如果曾經發生過有重大的交通違規或者是事故的駕駛人我們是應該在65歲以上有這些問題的要求他強制接受醫療跟認知的這個檢測"},{"start":14570.52,"end":14597.78,"text":"報告委員,這個有重大違規的部分,我們都有這個關懷的機制所謂關懷機制,其實有點類似像委員所說的這些啦那我們的關懷機制會去針對有特殊的這個肇事或者是特殊的違規的部分會來進行,65歲以上,會所以是等於是65歲就開始要做這個事,對不對?是那另外一個,我具體的要求,強化認知功能這個測驗之外,我們要加上入考"},{"start":14599.998,"end":14623.361,"text":"就是不要只是紙上的這個測驗啦就是實際的那個駕駛技術的那個測驗強化他實際的那個駕駛能力的評估可以嗎報告委員我們這個認知測驗之外我們現在有加了危險感知所謂危險感知就是他遇到危險的狀況再反映能力跟對危險的理解危險感知也會加進來還有就是他視知的靈活度這個部分我們也會加進來"},{"start":14624.142,"end":14638.944,"text":"那再來講習的部分 交通安全講習的部分也會加進來那針對有肇事記錄的長者他的這個實地的訓練也要加進來也就是說他真正要開車啦旁邊有人在跟他溝通 跟他做訓練這個部分也會加進來"},{"start":14640.625,"end":14668.479,"text":"所以你把我第四項具體要求這個獎席這一塊也加上去所以這等於是這個四大這個具體的要求還有剛剛加上一個75歲降到70都是往這方向在走嘛OK那事實上應該要配套啦所以剛剛講的保障這個行人的這個安全之外事實上高嶺這個長者他有時候為什麼要開車有時候也很不得已對不對或者是一種習慣所以我們應該配套第一個應該做的事情"},{"start":14669.043,"end":14669.571,"text":"那就讓他要"},{"start":14670.543,"end":14699.434,"text":"有合適或者便捷的交通的這個工具嘛對 公共運輸的工具要健全所以為什麼那些假義人上次很生氣也在要求嘉義遷軌的事情你想如果你嘉義遷軌真的是中央落實那天昨天長講的372億的工程備付啦趕快把遷軌蓋起來讓我們嘉義縣市的這個長輩就不用開車出門啦有這麼便捷的好不好 這個我們共同再來努力一下好不好那另外我覺得今天很好今天包括不管是"},{"start":14701.066,"end":14717.14,"text":"藍綠白的這個立委都很理性的提出很多建議配套提到包括這個通學區或者是人口比較密集的地方包括我們之前已經如果交通部已經做了很好的指引要這段時間我應該找縣市政府好好再溝通一下好不好是務必要落實"},{"start":14717.66,"end":14738.629,"text":"國土署他們有在做這樣的事情好的政策 政治好的指引一定要落實好不好所以一方面我今天提出五大具體的這個要求保障我們行人跟民眾的這個安全那一方面我們要照顧我們的長輩不是說好像就是說叫他們以後不要開車給他們一個比較世俗的這個安全 協助他們安全駕駛大眾運輸好 謝謝好 謝謝張基凱委員"},{"start":14745.396,"end":14766.852,"text":"下一位請王美惠委員發言,王美惠王美惠在嗎?在,主席我幫你講,不在主席謝謝感謝,跟我們這裡我們的部長好,部長有三個,好幾個交通部長,不好意思"},{"start":14773.169,"end":14782.561,"text":"董事長你好在這幾天我相信你跟我哥很多我們的董事都心情正常"},{"start":14783.581,"end":14810.629,"text":"但是在心情正當的當中我們要如何如果發生事情未來要如何去改善但是要改善的時候我相信每一個政策都是要有專家來評估來看要如何未來可以更好所以在昨天跟今天"},{"start":14811.889,"end":14824.3,"text":"有很多人都說,改75歲,我們要改到70歲嘛在這裡,我要說,我不反對我們的改革,我們的改善會更好因為在這個過程當中,我有覺得很好處"},{"start":14836.636,"end":14855.465,"text":"因為到底這個司機七十八歲跟你們五十八公八年七十五歲開始的啊 已經很久了我覺得應該是這段時間我們要有神聖去評估才對再來那天發生事情之後你們冠軍七十五歲跟七十五歲到底這個原因在哪裡"},{"start":14867.352,"end":14873.259,"text":"以這個時機 到底是什麼樣的情形之下發生這些事情我相信你我都還沒確定在這個過程"},{"start":14882.745,"end":14896.013,"text":"也有很多老人說,好的政策我75歲、我80歲、我70歲,需要三黨來挖我們這條的線,要有一些機制,他們都沒有反對但是在這個過程,他覺得一天、兩天,雄雄75歲、港70歲"},{"start":14914.515,"end":14937.926,"text":"發生這麼好 尤其有人希望 包括有希望沒希望有人想想沒人想想 相信大家都不要發生 但是保證我們要要一個好政策像昨天那個司機38歲 他受個人身體的問題"},{"start":14944.127,"end":14954.212,"text":"我們應該想說 我們的開車騎車 駕駛本身有問題是不是應該要怎樣去處理才對所以保證 本市在這裡 要跟你談到這個規範 你會在這裡 你對的時間來解決你看我寫的 包括我要來的時候"},{"start":14971.428,"end":14984.551,"text":"我們很多地方的老師 第一位都是70歲以上75歲如果我說 美輝 你要跟這個制度 老師沒反對喔這是要怎麼做才好不是隨便現代人說75歲跟70歲叫這些大傢伙要怎麼做聽著也可能手軟"},{"start":15002.571,"end":15024.173,"text":"部長 本席跟你談到這 你是不是可以用這個時間回答一下好 謝謝委員的追尋其實對於駕照的管理 我們不是只有針對長者交通部一直在討論三個部分一個部分是對於新考照的改革我們希望更有鑑別度我們希望考試的難度要加高 才有鑑別度的出來"},{"start":15024.773,"end":15043.081,"text":"第二個針對換照的制度我們希望針對強化這個違規者的安全駕駛風險的意識的這個回訊制度我們要建立起來那第三個才是年長者的換照制度其實這個年長者的換照制度在106年實施到現在我們中間經過了很多次的討論那我們現在也還在討論的階段也有做出了一些想法跟決定"},{"start":15051.684,"end":15057.531,"text":"不然你現在的意思就是說你們說75歲要到70歲要怎麼來這個機制再做好的時候到不成會聽很多專家的意見來配合"},{"start":15066.741,"end":15074.487,"text":"能夠好完善一點是不是這樣我們這個事情的進行已經有一段時間了啦我們在補來民跟專家跟學者透露有一段時間當然我們現在有一些政策的風雄確定但是有這個補分看未來要怎樣不要造成民眾最大的困擾的補分我們三個月以來我們會提出一個有這個補分部長因為我這幾年的時間也夠了但是我覺得這個問題要仔細去評估一下因為這個老人"},{"start":15096.542,"end":15122.544,"text":"有時候我們的時代 健康的說實在70歲你也看不出來70歲有的看起來有60幾位人而已我要特別跟委員報告我希望我們的整體社會不要對於高齡駕駛有誤解千萬不要有這方面的誤解這個就相當重要因為我昨天有提出一個數據其實真正最高的肇事的年齡不是在高齡者所以大家第一對他不要有誤解"},{"start":15123.405,"end":15144.963,"text":"第二 交通部的責任是什麼讓我們70歲以上因為台灣已經進入超高齡社會我們對於高齡者的駕駛我們要想辦法協助他跟安全的駕駛就如此而已我們不會去限制那我們要協助這才是最重要的因為你我都會老啦我們都會老所以我們要想看如何的制度如何要怎麼讓他們到三天才對我們是站在協助的角度不要說每次發生車禍就說這都是老人他們去的這樣就不好啦"},{"start":15151.448,"end":15166.279,"text":"不會 社會不應該有這樣子的問題因為我覺得保障這個溝通的問題我覺得孩子最難過我認為有需要當地的政府跟基建的建設局的溝通隊多聯繫一下看要如何可以更好因為我們不能夠有這個事情來發生以上好 謝謝"},{"start":15185.709,"end":15186.69,"text":"郭文貴議員郭文貴議員郭文貴議員"},{"start":15210.936,"end":15235.381,"text":"我想這個去年其實11月就已經有發生過這個苗栗就是71歲的阿公他因為開車那接孫子那也就是出現這個暴衝的一個狀況那前天其實也非常的遺憾我們看到這個重大的一個事故那也造成了多人的這個受傷跟死亡的一個車禍"},{"start":15236.881,"end":15252.988,"text":"那這是78歲的駕駛喔那再來就是昨天又接二連三又多了一個案件是在台南38歲的駕駛他疑似就是電線發作那造成這個交通上的一個事故喔"},{"start":15253.408,"end":15277.477,"text":"其實這個凸顯整個所有在交通上的一個現行的風險不僅僅是來自於所謂的年紀那也有可能是來自他自己本身的身心的一個狀況那想說這個駕駛到底具不具備有所謂的這個安全駕駛的一個能力那針對這個事故的一些照應的分析評估啦大部分都會停留在所謂的違規的條目的記錄上面"},{"start":15279.378,"end":15293.154,"text":"包含是沒讓車啦轉彎不當啦等等這一類比較表面上的一個原因但是沒有進一步的釐清這個背後是不是有所謂的這個認知或者是身體障礙的一個功能的一個退化"},{"start":15294.375,"end":15312.991,"text":"這個部分換句話來講我們現在對於所謂的這個交通事故的一個研判是不是真的能夠把真正高風險的駕駛人找出來這樣子的一個問題那我想更關鍵的就是在高齡駕駛者他們如果是完成一次的換照之後那如果接下來他因為是三年嘛"},{"start":15313.431,"end":15327.576,"text":"那如果之後這三年兩三年當中他的身體可能也有急速惡化或者什麼樣的一個狀況我們是怎麼樣能夠掌握到這個所謂的互通的一個機制才不會讓很多的風險就如此的放生這是我們比較擔心的問題"},{"start":15329.537,"end":15348.203,"text":"那針對所謂的這個A1這一類的重大的車禍我們是不是能夠真正的從制度上去排除我剛剛所說的這些交通事故上的一個風險有沒有考慮跟衛福部來做跨部會的一些資料上的通報跟駕照的控管的系統"},{"start":15349.248,"end":15368.127,"text":"報告委員您的這個建議非常的好我們交通部這邊會跟衛福部這邊來做借接在醫療方面的資訊看怎麼樣讓這個駕駛人能夠確定他是在安全的狀態之下能夠駕駛這個資料我們正在設法借接當中這個部分我們會來努力包含未來的修法的部分我們也會來努力進行"},{"start":15369.789,"end":15390.949,"text":"至於所謂的認知的測驗跟體檢的一個制度其實我們都會擔心他比較過於所謂的知識化那這個知識化通常肇事者都是所謂的檢查合格他其實是合格的但問題是他肇事了那這類的評估我們怎麼樣來明確的定出他的門檻跟處理的一個機制"},{"start":15391.858,"end":15419.152,"text":"報告委員 當然肇事有很多的原因不一定是跟他的體格或者他健檢方面是有關係因為肇事的原因有非常多多的樣態但是對於他整個身體的功能跟認知功能也好這個部分我們有加強我們昨天公佈的這個新的方案裡面包含針對他的危險認知還有他的認知功能這個部分我們都有加強那除此之外對於他的四肢的靈活度的這個測驗我們未來也會加進來"},{"start":15420.032,"end":15448.349,"text":"然後他對於交通安全的這個觀念跟概念我們也會透過講習的方式至少半天的講習讓長者未來在換照的過程當中能夠參與這樣子的講習那如果針對不好意思沒關係實地的這個訓練如果有肇事的紀錄的話實地的訓練我們也會加入那如果他本身就有一個肇事的紀錄他將來這個所謂的駕照是不是有可能會考慮就是取消他的這個資格或者換照的一個資格"},{"start":15449.747,"end":15466.536,"text":"是報告委員如果他是有造成傷亡他的駕照就會被吊銷好那如果有其他的肇事紀錄不一定有造成傷亡的話這個我們就會要求要有實地的訓練好那剛剛其實我們就高齡的部分其實另外一方面像陳部長這個在記者會當中其實也強調"},{"start":15467.757,"end":15495.755,"text":"就是這個肇事者其實蠻多的族群是在18歲到24歲的這個駕駛的年輕人的部分喔那這個部分我們在這個年齡層上面有沒有一個配套可以再教育或者風險的一個預警的機制那是不是也可以比照所謂的高齡駕駛設計一個比方說先違規他違規了那我們要回訊了回訊之後呢要重新再做認證這樣子的一個機制報告委員一方面齁在新考照的這個部分我們要加嚴讓他的鑑別度要出來所以你"},{"start":15496.135,"end":15521.788,"text":"即便是很年輕然後新考到駕照比較沒有經驗你也可以安全的駕駛那如果年輕然後新考到駕照但是又有一些肇事的狀況出現的話或者是嚴重的違規的狀況我們會有一個回訓的機制希望他透過回訓的機制來加強他的安全駕駛的這個意識好 那我想這個希望不要再看到類似這樣子的一個交通事故其實真的是讓人覺得非常的遺憾那我們繼續加油好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":15528.191,"end":15546.679,"text":"好 謝謝 我們請劉許廷委員謝謝主席 陳部長有請請部長委員好"},{"start":15547.574,"end":15573.422,"text":"部長辛苦了 大家都關心最近交通的悲劇大家都希望行人安全能夠再有效來提升這一次的不幸的悲劇當然也導引很多人去針對高齡駕駛的問題去做一個探討昨天我們有看到交通部提出了這個說法說要把高齡換照的年齡限制再降低我想請教一下是因為這個個案還是說你們針對這背後的可能曾經做了通案性的研究跟調查"},{"start":15574.182,"end":15597.05,"text":"報告委員我們其實針對駕照管理我們這段時間都一直在檢討包含新的考照的這個管理面然後包含回訊制度的管理面第三個才是針對換照的部分那這三個部分其實我們有都都陸續在做討論那也陸續在研擬新的改革的方向我意思說你把75歲拉低到70歲你背後的比如說數據或學理是什麼"},{"start":15598.331,"end":15614.939,"text":"目前各國的限制的年齡都不一樣我們的數字是從差不多10年前開始討論那個時候討論是用75歲作為界定那現在大家認為說其實高齡的駕駛的人員越來越多如果以70歲以上來說的話現在已經有182萬人的這個駕駛"},{"start":15622.102,"end":15650.947,"text":"那10年之後會增加到272萬人我們認為在這樣子的年齡的級距裡面的這一群駕駛的人我們需要協助他更安全的駕駛所以你有一個背後的數據做支撐你們交通部有沒有辦法提供一些相關的資料因為我想這國會應該有很多意見嘛對不對比如說各地的A1事故又造成死傷的這樣比較嚴重的交通事故跟駕駛的年齡它是不是有一定的真相關我的意思是說你們有沒有一些這樣的一個資料作為參考"},{"start":15652.302,"end":15679.287,"text":"報告委員其實數據都有啦數據都有那至於為什麼我們用這樣子的年齡或者為什麼用這些的方法其實我也跟媒體昨天在報告的時候講的說法都一樣因為其實日本比台灣更早進入高齡化社會所以他們其實已經有一段時間的努力跟演進那我們參考他們的方式我們來做符合台灣社會跟整個駕駛習慣的調整我相信你在背後應該有做完整的說明這是第一個"},{"start":15679.747,"end":15697.813,"text":"那第二個是這個制度要調整或是改革後面衍生出來的兩個面向的問題第一個我覺得除了檢討駕照的制度之外也要思考硬體也就是說有高齡駕駛另外一個是老車很多是沒有最新的安全的設備比如說自動啊等等這樣一些設備以前是沒有的"},{"start":15698.493,"end":15725.381,"text":"那麼相關的這些配套是不是也要跟著這次的檢討來一起來做處理讓比如說設備比如說AEB行人跟腳踏車偵測等等新車有舊車沒有它是不是跟交通事故也有一定的關聯性有沒有辦法藉這樣子的機會一併來做檢討這是本席給你的一個建議未來探討的時候也要把硬體的部分做探討第二個是你如果未來真的希望說比如說高齡的駕駛因為相對風險比較高所以希望他少使用適合運具"},{"start":15726.101,"end":15746.982,"text":"那你的配套是什麼其實大眾運輸嘛我有看到你昨天記者會你講說我會補助你TPAS對不對我就免費給你月票可是關鍵還是回到我們常常在討論的問題嘛就是你即便有了一個相對低廉的票價補助但是問題是如果公車的班次不夠多路網不夠密集你沒有辦法符合這個本來生活的需要那你即便你給了他TPAS他沒有地方可以用啊"},{"start":15747.563,"end":15762.211,"text":"他反而會變成說我沒有汽機車我沒有腳這個問題還是回到這個命題所以請問交通部現在這段時間新的年度或者是也許下個年度針對公共運輸大眾運輸的軟硬體改善具體的提升現在有沒有什麼新的對策"},{"start":15762.984,"end":15781.802,"text":"包委員我們其實該做的補助一直都在做如果大院支持的話我們預算足夠當然我們可以做得更多所以這個部分我們繼續跟地方政府一起來努力你看我們剛剛一講這個就講說我們有做補助嘛我一直覺得票價補助只是提升大眾運輸運量的其中一種手段而已但我覺得應該是要針對"},{"start":15784.725,"end":15805.618,"text":"提高大眾運輸服務量能的這個案子本身來做精準的打擊精準的補助這是對的嘛如果是都會區的話其實他的地方政府他們都有做規劃我們是站在協助的角度但是針對比較偏鄉的部分我們透過幸福巴士對啊比如說你有沒有一個專案有更多的幸福巴士我們現在已經有191個鄉鎮總共有495條的路線我剛剛有看到"},{"start":15809.46,"end":15837.215,"text":"台灣市政府有一個新聞啦就是說他把那種比較偏向的路線或比較少人大的路線他就用九人座的方式嘛然後他就媒介職業駕駛嘛然後他是不是把公車的駕駛控出來去跑大客車總之類似這樣的一些政策我希望交通部也要有明確的說明也就是說我要去因應人口高齡化希望私人載具下降的時候你其他的大眾運輸的配套我覺得這也是交通部要同步注意的地方好不好 相關的規劃是不是會後我們提供一些資料讓我們做追蹤跟參考 好不好好 謝謝部長 辛苦了"},{"start":15843.851,"end":15846.573,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請交通部長請陳部長黃部長陳主委"},{"start":15874.98,"end":15903.317,"text":"我們三位部長早沒關係站在一起預算解凍案其實有兩個很重要的時間點一個是黨團協商很可惜黨團協商的時候我們柯總召跟副總召在吵架很多部會的幕僚在後面可以談你們有什麼困難有什麼需求"},{"start":15904.465,"end":15929.648,"text":"可以提出來嘛,提出來我們來就可以處理就解凍嘛後來吵架最後無疾而終送院會去原來是在搞大罷免第二個時間點你們也可以提出解凍行政院就我了解,行政院不讓你們來解凍所以"},{"start":15931.072,"end":15954.679,"text":"各部會說很多錢不夠用了像交通部很多大樓用電只能用到五點半幾點我跟你講你們活該你們不提出來啊你不能去怪這個反對黨嘛對不對但也不僅然反對黨執政黨也有提這個凍結案凍結案這個東西行之有年嘛對不對"},{"start":15956.019,"end":15980.264,"text":"這不是我們國民黨發明的或是民眾黨發明的民進黨也是一樣啊這凍結案一定有嘛所以我跟三位部長你們了解一下你們有兩個很好的時間點所以你們不能怪我們你也不能在電視上說去怪說很像藍白很像在凍結你們預算當然今天的預算案解凍案"},{"start":15983.629,"end":16004.765,"text":"我大概都跟他們協調好了啦應該放你們過關問題是你們去講話的時候小心一點好不好我們沒有去阻攔你啊,這個是程序嘛行政程序是這樣走了嘛,是不是那好,那請那個黃部長跟主委請回好不好,謝謝剛才那個裁劃法那個"},{"start":16016.083,"end":16028.495,"text":"會計處長張處長提到因為財化法讓你們很多的錢都經費來源短促不能用處長行政院主席處也在這裡,跟這有什麼關係?"},{"start":16033.199,"end":16052.515,"text":"稅入稅出中央政府稅入稅出總預算一定是在稅入既有的基礎來編列稅出的預算嘛是不是這樣你當會計當那麼久了嘛那財化法是稅源多出來的是不是超真的嘛"},{"start":16053.51,"end":16070.278,"text":"但是多出來的錢啊跟你稅入稅出什麼關係你說因為財化法所以造成你錢不夠用你解釋給我聽這會影響的是未來怎麼影響因為當前因為事實上所謂的超收他其實還要還債"},{"start":16073.511,"end":16093.127,"text":"跟這個沒有關係嘛 還債關你什麼事啊是國家的事你不要把你交通部看得那麼大 你還管到全國的財政啊全國財政是行政院主技術管的 不關你的事你是就你既有的行政院主技術給你的額度裡面"},{"start":16094.025,"end":16120.534,"text":"你去編列預算嘛 是不是這樣是 是 沒錯我跟你講的話就不對啦沒有啊 問題是當整個行政院錢沒有的時候他會對我們交通部的所有的相關的支出一定也會緊縮那自然我們因為要滿足各地方的需要那如果稅源沒有抽抽的話怎麼辦蛤 你用電也省了嗎是 我們他的問題是在桶山嘛問題出在桶山嘛 是不是這樣"},{"start":16121.878,"end":16140.031,"text":"統三你講統三嘛,跟財化法什麼關係啊?沒有因為那個是委員提案要我們對財化法對我們講做解釋你講話已經超過你的職權了,你瞭解沒有?那是行政院主計處財政部可以講這個話,你怎麼可以講這個話勒?你是交通部的會計處處長"},{"start":16142.438,"end":16170.651,"text":"你這個講話已經,你代表你是行政院主席長嗎?你不是嘛?是,不代表,可是委員要求我們要回答對才有辦法對我們的影響沒有影響啦,稅入一定有多少錢在那裡嘛,你才能編稅出的錢嘛所以你操作多少,你用猜的喔?你又不是玄天上帝,也不是技工火火,你會知道你是上帝啊?你會知道操作多少錢嗎?"},{"start":16172.649,"end":16199.945,"text":"再給你三兆你也不夠啦是不是好處長你請回啦早上那個王美月委員這兩天出了重大車禍部長你這個東西應該就制度上面去檢討嘛你不要一個人75歲的一個老人出了車禍你要把他改到什麼考照改到70歲"},{"start":16202.935,"end":16218.343,"text":"我也是受害者,那我75歲,那我今天要去考試?沒有道理啊換照機制一直都在好沒關係,如果60歲有一個人發生了重大車禍撞死了十幾個,那你要降低到60歲嗎?"},{"start":16221.916,"end":16241.649,"text":"我們不是針對單一個案來做決定的你就是為了這個事情啊你去年有提出來嗎?前年有提出來嗎?我們其實這已經演繹一段時間了沒有道理了啦會先提出來的原因是因為現在社會大家很關注我們就把我們目前演繹的結論先跟社會來做報告跟你講啦,你在應付社會啦,我沒有意見啦"},{"start":16242.829,"end":16256.92,"text":"問題是你不能把制度這樣朝西令來的你要朝著制度面去走我們過去這個制度已經做十年了這個人神經有沒有問題體力有沒有問題是不是 四肢有沒有問題你就考慮這個嘛"},{"start":16258.261,"end":16285.094,"text":"你把他趕到75歲我們現在都有納入了那我也是受害者你知道嗎我不是受害者嗎我不會讓您受害我們這個方案你不讓我受害是要協助年長者你以為那個S型可以隨便進去可以隨便出來的有那麼厲害喔那個不容易我們沒有說要考S型沒有考S型那考什麼考長方形還是正方形三個月之後會提出整體的方案再跟委員報告"},{"start":16287.455,"end":16306.509,"text":"你可以比試,出車禍的原因很多,喝酒精神不濟我們不是為了擔任個案,我們是整體的駕照管理是包含新考照的,包含已經在路上開,但是有一些違規的樣態要回訊的機制也都有然後換照是另外一個,我們總共有三個方向"},{"start":16307.95,"end":16330.421,"text":"早上在講,剛才在講,我坐在台上我是受害者我跟你講,一定有很多鄉親出來講話委員如果已經75歲,本來就是到了現行機制該換照的年齡了不是換人喔?換駕駛喔?你是叫我不要開車那個意思嗎?不會,現在很多人換照都很順利"},{"start":16331.887,"end":16360.734,"text":"我現在八十幾歲啊,人家生性善良啊你要做壞事要去撞人,那沒辦法,那神經有問題你不能把神經病精神病人也統統把他算在裡面啦,是不是這沒有道理嘛我真的不是看個案不過你修這個法,你們稍微小心一點好不好你不要今天出了車禍,明天出了什麼風災什麼人禍就來啦,叫他修叫他修包委員這不是急救張的啦,我們不會做急救張的事情這是制度的整體的改善好這次到馬祖去考察"},{"start":16362.285,"end":16375.937,"text":"這個大家非常辛苦啦,速發部也去了,部長也去了我也感受到你們的誠意好不好我希望大家同心協力因為馬祖是個藍白合作的地方我剛才到內政委會質詢海基會"},{"start":16382.315,"end":16409.976,"text":"他幾年專門委員每天在罵連江縣政府罵陳雪生委員你們把北竿機場的配套你給我拿出來怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣一直罵我們現在執政的是民進黨執政耶交通部你是執政黨的他應該去喊什麼連江縣地方黨部也好海基會的人怎麼可以去搞這個事吃飽飯錢都沒事做我才問他他吃什麼飯做什麼事連江縣黨部也在罵我們地方黨部"},{"start":16411.468,"end":16439.202,"text":"你應該叫交通部陳部長下台啊對不對你要找那個何局長下台啊罵我幹什麼很奇怪你覺得我是不是勇往被罵了部長你回答我問題我不曉得他罵什麼啦沒辦法評論因為我不曉得他罵什麼他罵我鬼混啦說那個什麼黑箱作業幹什麼的是啊你是沒看到啦你的幕僚跟他們講到馬志旺去找出來看看好不好"},{"start":16440.303,"end":16452.711,"text":"我再去了解一下執政黨的黨員也有執政黨,國有國法,家有家規嘛,有點規矩嘛好不好,我們共同譴責,好不好謝謝你的協助,好不好好,謝謝主席"},{"start":16466.724,"end":16473.708,"text":"謝謝陳雪森委員 那個譴責你可以個人表態啦好 我們請林月琴委員麻煩我們的陳部長請部長"},{"start":16490.09,"end":16514.512,"text":"好 部長午安我今天只想談一件事情就是高齡者的交通權益我想這幾天大家都心裡非常的難過可是我還是要必須提醒高齡駕駛不是只有高齡者移動權的一個表現方式它同時也是一個如何精進駕駛能力評估的問題事實上相對事實上是重要不過在台灣快速邁向超高齡因為今年進入到超高齡社會"},{"start":16515.313,"end":16531.425,"text":"未來這件事情應該刻不容緩我相信部長不會反對我這樣說是吧可是部長我們來看包括針對高齡者駕照的管理制度的檢討運援所在30年這30年前就在研究了"},{"start":16532.265,"end":16544.685,"text":"那到2022年甚至還提出要通盤檢討其中也都有回顧各國高齡者的換照制度就30年了那我上個會期也在這邊質詢"},{"start":16546.701,"end":16570.435,"text":"不是我有未補先知事實上這個三網本來就是狀況很嚴重我提醒交通部說你的那個高齡駕駛的這樣子的一個法規有漏洞我也整理了日本南韓做法建議交通部呢應該儘速研議要做到三件事情填補我們高齡駕駛的換照制度的漏洞還有提供安全裝置的補助還建立繳回駕照的講座"},{"start":16571.977,"end":16590.797,"text":"機制還有持續加強偏鄉的一個公共運輸那上週呢我跟許智傑召委呢還要找了老人福利推動聯盟跟交通的學者共同召開了記者會請交通部務必要細緻化去處理高齡駕駛人的管理我們建構"},{"start":16594.048,"end":16619.86,"text":"所謂的階段性的換照政策同場我們大概也找了衛福部那一起來做這個針對於那個能力的評估這些應該要有甚至也具體建議說是不是有高齡的安全駕駛補助那我覺得很可惜的是交通部不管是書面回覆說明報告或者是記者會的回覆都是不斷的說我們會再討論那會再研議研議再研議"},{"start":16623.422,"end":16644.836,"text":"就是不願意把過去做的研究跟各界的建議拿出來認真來考慮政策來推動我為什麼這樣提因為我說我去年10月23號就針對這個給了一些意見甚至我提出日本的這些日本南韓補助高齡者裝設車輛安全裝置防止暴衝部長你們素面報告怎麼回答我的你知道嗎"},{"start":16646.746,"end":16673.473,"text":"我現在正在看對 正在看齁這邊寫的是什麼這邊寫的是說目前沒有車輛導入也不是聯合國標準配備所以要等聯合國納入標準配備以後再來討論要不要導入實施當時是這樣回答我可是我剛剛在聽部長在備詢的時候有某個委員問的時候你這邊說馬上三個月內就會來演議提出做法"},{"start":16674.4,"end":16691.952,"text":"我去年十月二十三的時候然後你們十一月八號的時候書面回覆我說要等聯合國要等聯合國三個月是評估不是一定會做我們要看我的預算規模做不做得到至少他好像也比我進一步那時候你還說要等聯合國納入標準配備之後才來去做"},{"start":16693.893,"end":16714.481,"text":"討論那何時聯合國那現在聯合國也還是沒有納入納入標準啊那你們這時候說要討論那如果剛剛部長講說你剛回答那個委員是講說你那時候才來討論那這似乎不管怎麼樣聯合國已經有納入了啦然後我們也已經有在這個小車的這個配備的要求裡面有做預告現在已經在預告當中了"},{"start":16715.31,"end":16735.512,"text":"所以我希望不要因為高齡價值發生問題的時候我們才來做因為每一條人命都是非常珍貴那是人家辛辛苦苦養出來的孩子那是期盼他回家的媽媽不能回了家所以我希望交通部不是用這樣子來針對這個還在拖延"},{"start":16738.295,"end":16753.885,"text":"那再來我們要看到交通安全事實上是一直是我很關心的所以每一次部長來我一定都會來質詢可是我還是希望能夠持續透過各種方式監督所以我這邊再一次提醒日韓都有階段性換照不要說我們現在下降年齡"},{"start":16755.166,"end":16772.484,"text":"下降年齡如果他能力上有困難的話你基本上還是沒有解決問題所以我覺得那個階段性的換照制度是不是可以去做還有一個要規劃有階段性的追蹤這個人不會是今年檢查OK可是明年呢"},{"start":16773.024,"end":16787.49,"text":"也要不要有階段性的去追蹤所以我也同意年齡不是一個單一的駕駛安全的單一決定因素所以我們需要更細緻的而且希望能夠對於有鑑別度的身心能力檢核"},{"start":16788.735,"end":16812.057,"text":"否則的話一跨過75歲那現在有沒有比較年輕失智的有啊那跨75歲可是有沒有他能力上有沒有可以不同的分多面向的篩檢跟評估機制那所以我們希望將不但我也非常肯認你們在5月20號開記者會去做這樣的一個說明可以去提出來"},{"start":16812.717,"end":16826.533,"text":"我也希望部長一直以來都也很用心在這一塊可是速度可不可以加快一點所以最後我就建議是不是來最後我建議大概三點主張也就是"},{"start":16827.654,"end":16848.957,"text":"能不能會同社政主管機關共同研商我們精進高齡駕駛能力評估機制一定要做他的能力評估這個國外也有一套做法我建議交通部應該要參採第二個是不是針對高風險違規駕駛人的管理應該研商結合醫療跟保險機制的可行性還有我覺得偏鄉"},{"start":16849.958,"end":16861.335,"text":"因為如果偏鄉沒有機車沒有汽車的話老人家大概我們也不能影響到他的移動權所以這邊都要去考慮所以希望部長不要再遲到了好 謝謝"},{"start":16870.239,"end":16898.222,"text":"好 謝謝您的請委員那天我正好有跟他開記者會希望部長這裡再幫忙多加強謝謝我們請邱志偉委員好謝謝我們主席小金剛這個我是邀請這個交通部陳部長陳部長"},{"start":16905.558,"end":16915.812,"text":"部長這個教務業務非常多啊那你在那麼多的業務在那麼短時間之內充分掌握而確實執行到位所以內閣裡面滿一度啊"},{"start":16916.823,"end":16944.259,"text":"好感度最高的就是您了我對你們的工作表示肯定也對交通部的團隊大家齊心協力為了國家的交通建設努力我這邊表示最大的這個感謝謝謝委員他說感謝之後還要拜託有幾項建設這個我具體提出來就是柳蛙山窟也許未來也可能是這個許智傑的選區也不一定"},{"start":16948.256,"end":16954.801,"text":"來 菜寮路啊 菜寮路在貢山那個是一個非常重要 雖然是在山區但是我看了好多次就是缺經費"},{"start":16956.645,"end":16985.765,"text":"岡山區高層有菜頭路拓寬工程那如果不拓寬它那個就是用路的安全就會受到很嚴重的威脅第二會有車禍所以它是一般型的計畫那當然市政府當然財源有限我是希望說在有限的市府經費之下是不是公路局能夠納入這個拓寬工程讓經費能夠到位讓這個長期來困擾這個菜頭路沒有辦法拓寬這些市民朋友讓他們更安心"},{"start":16986.665,"end":17007.757,"text":"所以這點可以請補助來幫忙好 報告委員那個高雄市政府如果提出申請的這個補助補助的申請的話我們就會請公路局來做這個研議已經有提出了生活圈的補助的部分已經有提出了它排序的部分我也請他們盡量拉到前面來那如果到部裡面的時候我也懇請部長能夠支持好 我們盡力來協助"},{"start":17009.258,"end":17034.48,"text":"另外台61線從北到巴黎一直到目前的征文溪口這個是我大概如果沒記錯的話大概是10年前的提案我臨時提案提出這個台61線不能只做征文溪口必須要跨國征文溪口往南做到高雄經過協定 經過永安 經過彌陀一直到紫關 一直接到南紫"},{"start":17035.5,"end":17058.566,"text":"這個台六十一線才能從北貫穿到南部所以這部分因為我提案也 交通部也 立任部長也都支持了所以我這部分是因為在台南那一段有路線的問題因為有一些失地跟一些國家公園所以它的難度會比較高一點 還要提供很多環評但是在我這一段高雄端這部分反而比較容易去克服"},{"start":17059.226,"end":17070.516,"text":"所以高雄段的部分是不是可以優先來施作優先施作當然需要經費經費我希望說部裡面能夠大力支持但是經費不少但是如果"},{"start":17071.542,"end":17100.72,"text":"有 先期的經費下去我想我跟許智傑一起努力我們也許再邀請部長去看一下實際上哪些的高雄端是可以優先施作的所以這部分我已經質詢會堪說明會辦了17次是 報告委員 等這個預算行政院核定之後我們會優先施作來優先施作高雄這一段高雄這一段如果可以優先施作我相信對於地方的交通會有很大的幫助"},{"start":17101.42,"end":17124.085,"text":"所以您是同意以支持這部分優先施作所以我們預算如果合定之後我們會優先施作高雄這一段預算我們一起來努力那如果一旦合定我希望說部長能夠見急履急然後把高雄段這部分先處理那另外軌道建設很重要軌道建設一般都是需要中央補助的財源那高雄的捷運路網捷運路網裡面現在紅線黃線"},{"start":17128.607,"end":17153.125,"text":"這個另外就是橘縣那現在就是另外一個紫縣我想這個徐志杰委員長期在交通委員會他很關心紫縣的部分是橫的橫的從西邊的我希望可以延伸到紫關靴鵝阿寮有一個紫關鵝阿寮直線然後貫穿所有的大學靴園區所以這部分我目前因為前瞻基礎建設軌道建設這個還很多件"},{"start":17156.767,"end":17175.186,"text":"這些都需要中央來來指引這個部分是不是可行性研究已經報到交通部審議了目前在做修正那這樣往來聞來聞去也一年了是不是在目前針對紫縣的審議的效率能夠能夠提升我希望說"},{"start":17178.9,"end":17197.519,"text":"盡快把它完成我們會盡量跟高雄市政府兩邊來配合啦我們加速讓這個程序可以走快一點修正的速度也要加快一點公文王已經一年了所以這個我特別提出來再請部長再去跟相關同仁講這個效率能夠再提升好我們來努力好謝謝部長謝謝吳同仁謝謝趙偉"},{"start":17203.653,"end":17212.822,"text":"謝謝 持之委員我們請部長那個儘快幫忙還有那個捷運啊 紫縣現在還有反應到岐山也幫忙在我們規劃一下好 謝謝謝謝 我們請12號委員"},{"start":17226.84,"end":17228.242,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 那也請部長請部長 陳部長"},{"start":17238.066,"end":17262.682,"text":"部長好那當然本席也是要肯定交通部對於這個三峽這個事件來講那針對長者的就是駕駛制度有做第一時間的回應那當然說這個三峽這個老翁的就是撞到學生的這悲劇真的是讓社會各界都感到非常的悲痛"},{"start":17263.502,"end":17285.62,"text":"非常的難過那本席想要接的因為剛才許多的委員他們其實都有詢問到就是高齡駕駛制度那現在從75歲要降到70歲那其實辦公室大家也討論了很多那這個到底換照70歲跟75歲目前要增加的駕駛人要換照的駕駛人數是多少"},{"start":17288.742,"end":17298.647,"text":"報告委員我們目前大概如果以今年來算的話大概會有182萬人從70歲往上算會有182萬人那10年之後會有到272萬人那75歲以上以現行來講換照的這個比例有來去進行這換照的人數大概有多少換照的比例有90%"},{"start":17311.933,"end":17330.184,"text":"目前從106年執行到現在我們就是符合這個需要換照有86萬多那現在已經辦理完畢的是80萬5000那針對這個70歲以上要來做換照將來的一個通知的方式預計要怎麼樣通知才能夠齊全因為"},{"start":17333.186,"end":17348.023,"text":"我坦白說這個長者啊那他們是不是能夠確實的被通知到他們要換照那當然說以社會事件來讓大家矚目那當然說這是大家現在也都知道就是長者駕駛的一個安全性"},{"start":17348.624,"end":17366.158,"text":"那如果說許多的長者甚至他的家人是不是能夠確實知道他們要換照以及包括在換照的包括是健檢體檢包括或是包括他們的感知測試等等的這個部分是不是他們第一都是不是有充分的學習能夠讓他們理解到他們需要換照"},{"start":17367.198,"end":17394.74,"text":"通知的部分因為我們過去已經執行了很多年106年一直到現在所以通知的部分沒有問題我們只是把目前增加的年齡層的部分通知一樣是照過去的方式來通知這個沒有問題那未來整個檢測的過程當中我們也會有一個詳細的計畫做出來之後讓所有的需要換照的這個年長者他們都能夠很清楚的知道那應該要怎麼做怎麼樣便利的去做換照的動作這個我們也會一併來思考"},{"start":17395.543,"end":17423.236,"text":"因為本席還是在這裡還是要強調一下就是我相信其實許多的年長者就是高齡者他們的家人就是甚至可能不一定清楚他們要去做一個換照動作那當然說我相信監理站這邊其實都有盡可能來進行通知那包括許多如果說家人他們都不知道的情況之下那是不是這些長者都能夠確實知道要被通知到要換照而且這個制度如果將來要改到70歲預計多久之內會實施"},{"start":17424.538,"end":17452.871,"text":"報告員我們希望在115年也就是明年可以來實施這樣的新的政策對那這個能夠落實通知那同樣的是盡量也配合警政單位能夠在社區或是包括在相關的老人會都能夠來去做一個通知到那編列的這個宣傳的話目前是會有編任相關的宣傳或者是就是怎麼樣的方式能夠來做通知明年會有相關的預算那另外我們也會跟地方政府來配合包含鄉鎮公所也好或者是地方的縣市政府"},{"start":17453.271,"end":17472.706,"text":"大家會一起來合作來做這個同事的動作那另外的話就剛才其實有些委員有提到這些年長者他們不僅是換照的一個鼓勵制度啊那我覺得其實兩百塊或者是小禮物的話可能還不足以能夠成為他們來換照的誘因啊那有沒有再有其他的方式"},{"start":17473.266,"end":17496.989,"text":"我們來想想看獎勵跟誘因的方式我們再來思考看有沒有更有更有吸引力的方法好那再來的話就是他們現在來講如果長者的這個車輛啊他們不管是有沒有在比較新的車輛有輔助駕駛的系統或者是包括他們年長的這種類似房子爆充的這些系統或設置的補助那目前以你規劃的方式如何"},{"start":17497.612,"end":17517.059,"text":"報告委員,科技的防治的部分其實在現在新車裡面都有,那對於舊車的部分,因為今天有好幾位委員都提到這個問題,我們來研議看看,因為這個牽涉到第一預算規模,第二執行層面,在台灣的量能有沒有辦法去真正落實到執行,這個我們還要再研究一段時間。"},{"start":17517.919,"end":17545.121,"text":"因為我是覺得在剛才一些委員的質詢的時候確實是還沒有得到會不會有這樣子一個補助方案那當然說新車來講的話都一定會有相關的補助系統那我是覺得說那舊車相對量比例會是比較少所以我會建議說可以的話還是正向是不是來去做一個補助系統的一個補貼措施那我覺得說這樣子對於長者來講不僅鼓勵他們換照也鼓勵他們在道路行程上是安全駕駛"},{"start":17545.802,"end":17547.403,"text":"主席 因為大家都辛苦了那我想在這裡"},{"start":17569.944,"end":17598.991,"text":"還沒有執行以前我特別就請主席做一個宣告也就是我們明天那個資通安全法的審查因為總共有19組包括行政院所以這個部分就是要先預告一下明天是要逐條宣導或者是答詢已經答詢過了所以這個拜託主席拜託主席就讓大家"},{"start":17600.372,"end":17617.288,"text":"要不要主條要不要直接審或者要全部宣讀這個部分就請主席可能要讓我們交通委員的所有的委員啊預備時間所以這個特別跟主席做一個建議好 那個請陳部長交通部陳部長來 數位部我們黃部長請黃部長"},{"start":17628.357,"end":17656.724,"text":"好兩位部長所謂我們的官員大家辛苦了到現在都還沒有用餐那因為我會遵守一些時間不要用得太長那特別因為陳部長我一向在執行對於你所有的工作表現我都加以肯定但是在這裡特別也要來談就是因為我們所有立法院的同仁都已經談過了也就是三峽這個案子的問題"},{"start":17657.944,"end":17673.902,"text":"也就是原本交通改革可以講說是失敗的那我也反對說實在的我基本上我也反對你們在幾年前開始在研究要把年齡降低可是現在不要忘了現在年齡的問題"},{"start":17675.484,"end":17691.583,"text":"根本我們的遺命是越來越高的那我們的政策以前研究的跟現在是套不起來的所以我要建議部長啊年齡絕對不是絕對造勢原因之一所以這個"},{"start":17693.124,"end":17713.333,"text":"當然你們有你們的想法可是我還是要拜託在這個部分移民越長的當中你降的越低這是不是解決交通唯一一個辦法另外一個辦法就是硬體改善非常重要"},{"start":17714.053,"end":17740.762,"text":"也就是什麼硬體改善你看看發生之後的都是不是邪笑就是邪聲啊發生這種不幸那當然我們心裡面啊有感而發感同身受說實在的我們誰沒有子女當然看到這發生這種事情心裡面會非常的氣開但是我還是要建議除了聯名之外"},{"start":17741.522,"end":17759.497,"text":"但是硬體的改善是非常重要的所以部長我也要希望兩位師長就黃師長跟林師長要特別特別你不要上來沒關係啦反正你們不能老是一直坐在辦公室裡面想你們的想法"},{"start":17761.217,"end":17784.266,"text":"實際的解決問題就像如果是在學校你可以弄一個專案去辦什麼就辦一個硬體改造如何碰撞只要有學生的地方我應該要去做什麼東西這個硬體改善也是非常重要所以我還是希望第一個聯名不是絕對改善交通人文事故的一個問題第二個"},{"start":17785.766,"end":17811.619,"text":"也就是硬體改善如何補助各地方政府去把這些緩緩的動作去把它做好這個要雙方面來去做這些決定不是把年齡降低以後事情就不會發生沒那麼簡單啦 沒弄所以我希望這個你要把它當成是一回事然後來做一些研究參考國外"},{"start":17812.539,"end":17834.909,"text":"參考我們這個好 接著下一張來好 所以這個都不是主要的啦來 接下來好 那這個還有一點我還要建議啦真的要換照那還是要考慮它違規紀錄的這些要納入考慮就像那個三峽這個案子78歲這個這個疑性這個肇事者"},{"start":17838.63,"end":17866.124,"text":"我說實在的他已經有前車之鑑已經有記錄了他還是二月份就可以去換照成功這一點我是認為我們還是要納入改革的方向好不好所以針對這個部分我要拜託部長還是你有你的想法但是我不希望你們以前所做研究現在事實上是不符合時代的不是降年齡就可以解決啦"},{"start":17867.205,"end":17871.618,"text":"所以多方面的去做改革才有辦法建這個那最後部長你可以請回來"},{"start":17876.172,"end":17899.839,"text":"部長你可以請回陳部長好我最後的時間啊算那個也不要用太多黃部長你知不知道你們在補助啊拿了補助以後拿了補助以後啊卻對以中共的做比較來你看一下這個拿了台灣的補助"},{"start":17901.235,"end":17928.815,"text":"給中國的優惠這點我跟你講我不是反對跟中國而是這種東西台灣跟中國要對等這也是我們政府啊一直在要求的東西耶你怎麼拿我們台灣的補助那中國優惠台灣不優惠這是不公平的報告 報告委員這個我們不是補助他研發並沒有補助他行銷這個事情我們會再跟你們要就正啊我們會以後你們要就正啊"},{"start":17929.655,"end":17945.925,"text":"是我知道你們是補助他幫助這些整個樹會 研發的進步但是他來做這種東西會給我們老百姓覺得我買他的東西我可以買到那個880可是中國就可以買到294塊"},{"start":17948.226,"end":17966.671,"text":"這不公平嘛你雖然補助他研發但是在這個部分是不對的所以我一向我對對岸我也是非常友善的但是如果對我台灣人民的不公平那我也是反對所以你補助他怎麼去做這個事呢"},{"start":17967.691,"end":17982.506,"text":"不是這個一向我就認為一定要對等你要賣給大陸多少錢我沒意見給他們優惠我也沒有意見但是我台灣的消費者我也一樣啊怎麼會這種懸殊這麼大就會產生什麼產生台灣的人民"},{"start":17989.173,"end":18013.186,"text":"是 為什麼會這樣 可是你們的理由說 我補助他是做研發 發展工作但是我還是要拜託部長 以後再補助 這些東西一定要訂得很清楚你被我抓到 以後我就不補助 這一點可以做得到吧行銷部門我們會再看怎麼樣去加強你行銷 你又不是經濟部 你是研發的部份 好不好"},{"start":18015.627,"end":18041.783,"text":"那個署長你們要注意這個啦好不好我跟你講這個會給台灣人民覺得是有一種不公平的對待我同意我們跟大陸一定是對等的情況之下大家來做補助我也認為應該補助的就補助但是不能讓我台灣人民覺得為什麼他比較便宜為什麼我比較貴"},{"start":18043.38,"end":18054.367,"text":"這個部分 柏中你了解嗎 好不好所以這個以後可能要特別注意一下 好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝林國成召委這位請林柱英委員發言林柱英不在 請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":18073.463,"end":18080.591,"text":"謝謝主席,楊全發言邀請部長好,請陳部長嗎?交通部還是?交通部好,陳部長委員好"},{"start":18090.42,"end":18106.784,"text":"新北三峽區發生了這個重大的事情全國都很緊張大家想要知道到底是什麼原因那同時也希望能夠知道政府的應對方式所以我們看到呢在這個"},{"start":18109.637,"end":18129.974,"text":"2017年的時候我們有實施75歲以上高齡者的駕駛人換照的這機制而且每三年要重新的來評估認知跟身體的機能但是我們看到這個數據去統計的這個數字也就是有5.6萬人沒有完成換照的手續這是第一個議題"},{"start":18131.115,"end":18148.957,"text":"第二個有20.5萬人是83歲以上的長者他因為早年制度他就排除掉了他排除掉20.5萬人所以他這兩個部分他沒有換照他沒有排除所以他仍舊是有效的駕照"},{"start":18150.881,"end":18165.729,"text":"那在這樣的情況之下他沒有經過定期的一個評估那似乎大家提出了這個疑慮所以請教 請教部長在目前我們面臨到了這樣的一個情況我們要怎麼樣"},{"start":18167.37,"end":18185.94,"text":"去優化值呢我們的方案應對是什麼請做說明好 報告委員整體的這個駕照管理的部分我們其實分三個部分一個是新考照的部分那第二個是考完照之後你有違規或者是造勢的樣態我們需要有回訊的機制這個是另外一個"},{"start":18186.72,"end":18199.614,"text":"現在社會上大家比較關注的是年長者的換照年長者的換照我今天早上的說明其實也有說明過台灣已經很快速的進入了超高齡社會現在有182萬人是70歲以上的價值人"},{"start":18202.017,"end":18222.936,"text":"那10年之後會有272萬人這是相當大比例的一個人口的數字那我們就要有更完善的協助年長者的這個安全駕駛的協助的機制所以我們會用換照的模式來協助這些年長者在換照的過程當中我們除了認知測驗之外還有危險感知的測驗另外我們針對"},{"start":18224.737,"end":18252.952,"text":"學習的部分我們的這個課程也會加進來讓他可以做訓練這個部分我們一樣一樣都會加進來所以未來在年長者的部分我們甚至在年齡的部分當然我們現在仿效日本因為日本其實比我們更早十年進入超高齡社會他們對於高齡者的這個駕照的管理其實有一套的機制他們有兩個方案去處理他的管理機制而且他將他的車子防衝爆"},{"start":18254.273,"end":18269.898,"text":"這也是一個方法所以本身要請教的就是說我們目前所面臨到的這一些我們是越來越多的年長者他們也有這個需求所以我們要怎麼樣政府的方案到底是要怎麼樣"},{"start":18271.199,"end":18289.232,"text":"那您照上也說了是不是將75歲來調降為5歲調降到70歲那原本的身體機能評估認知這個是原本就已經有了我們會再更加強那你要更加強所以本席要請教你們具體的時間表我們總是知道我的問題"},{"start":18290.513,"end":18316.093,"text":"社會的問題在哪裡希望大家都能夠安心那所以你多久時間可以把你的精進方案拿出來報告委員我們在三個月之內會提出精進的方案那我們希望在明年度也就是115年度可以來落實這樣子的方案三個月拿出你們的精進方案第二個針對於這20.5萬83歲以上的長者早年制度排除的這部分怎麼處理呢"},{"start":18317.595,"end":18320.018,"text":"報告委員這個部分我們還是盡量想辦法把它納進來"},{"start":18321.989,"end":18347.526,"text":"是跟委員報告這一個83歲以上的其實這個目前其實多數的這個年長者其實並沒有開車那動態的管理我們在83歲以上的話他有其他還有在使用車輛而且有違規的話那我們會就是通知他們三個月內也是要來做這一個我們的認知功能測驗所以這個結論也就是本席具體建議給我們部長"},{"start":18348.587,"end":18373.79,"text":"我們發覺到這樣子的問題的樣態人數都已經告訴你我們要怎麼樣去精進優化這非常重要我期待給你您說的三個月內的這個方案趕快要給社會大眾去安心去安心接下來本期要請教今年1月到4月我們高工局的統計國道共有17起的AI交通事故"},{"start":18374.39,"end":18393.237,"text":"造成了人員當場或者24小時死亡的交通事故那是22人死亡那其中有14起的肇事形態是追撞的事故我們比較去年同期是8起所以它的增加率是75%面對這樣子75%"},{"start":18397.618,"end":18417.326,"text":"增加的這個逐年升高的致死風險所以本學要在這邊請教部長你針對於AI這樣子的AI類的一個追蹤事故它的一個年增率是如此那這樣子的情況之下高風險的區域你要有什麼的方案來應對呢"},{"start":18418.422,"end":18444.262,"text":"是 報告委員 這個我看了這個數據之前高工局也有讓我知道這件事這個追撞的案子確實一直在增加那我們現在正在分析說他這些案例到底是為什麼追撞會這麼快速的增加那防範的部分當然除了宣導以外更重要的是事情如果沒有分析出原因我舉個例啦 不一定你那個分析要多久時間因為大家非常的希望一定要安全你自己都知道"},{"start":18444.983,"end":18460.699,"text":"高官主席給你看過 自己要知道這是嚴肅的議題而且它的增加率這麼高 我們觀光統計1到4月份就這樣子70幾% 這嚇死人了那這怎麼辦呢 生命誠可貴那你知道原因 那你們分析大概要多久時間"},{"start":18465.105,"end":18476.341,"text":"一個月內分析出來應對方案去執行之 討論可以去執行之以防範這樣的一個安全最後一個議題我具體給你也就是台鐵北迴線"},{"start":18478.465,"end":18499.925,"text":"那我跟您討論的是像這一次呢何人跟到那個崇德的這一段土石流沒辦法老天爺給我們這樣子的一個考驗大家全力以赴我們現場的工作人員投入了搶救連續工作14個小時都沒有換班都沒有換班我們長官要去他們還在那邊等所以基層生意很大"},{"start":18500.976,"end":18510.599,"text":"已經違反了我們的勞基法那部長你認為這樣的事情OK嗎可以如此嗎我們搶救就是一定要搶救我們的員工全力全力全力以赴我們要讚許他在他們沒有搶救的時間點還要讓他們在那邊等待你覺得適度嗎是有一點耽擱但是是有換班所以不可以耽擱啊對不對"},{"start":18526.164,"end":18548.385,"text":"你們怎麼沒有違反就已經超過了啊怎麼會沒有違反是接班的人的這個交通問題所以他雖然有點耽擱但是都有換班所以我們的人員第一線他已經那麼辛苦了你們要照顧他啊我們一定會照顧集成員工是不是不可以再讓他無謂的浪費他的時間啊他已經這麼辛苦了啊是不是好謝謝委員"},{"start":18558.497,"end":18585.823,"text":"剛剛那個林國神召委問的明天的會議是進行資通安全管理法修正草案的逐條審查那共有20案那因為本會4月24日第8次會議已經巡打完畢因此明天就不再進行巡打於繼續宣讀增列的6個草案條文後即進行全部20個草案逐條審查的處理OK"},{"start":18586.578,"end":18601.606,"text":"好 先我們請羅廷偉委員好 謝謝主席我們先有請速發部部長請黃部長交通部部長請準備 謝謝"},{"start":18608.117,"end":18628.772,"text":"好 部長剛剛有委員所提到的這個百箭桃要賺奇談那您目前知道這個網路事件嗎就是那個你說那個我們補助的那個補助的金額給他們然後讓他們去研發然後最後他的價格最後竟然比中國還高甚至有比韓國日本都高出來"},{"start":18629.932,"end":18655.139,"text":"那這個部分沒關係你已經有講了就是說你是補助研發的部分我們都支持國產嘛我也開了好幾次的一些公聽會也都有找你嘛對不對那不只是電競不只是國產遊戲我們都支持但是現在問題點出現了嘛未來這些補助的研發資金我們可不可以去設定一些內規或者是跟他們做廠商的探討未來這些的定價不要再有再下一次"},{"start":18656.178,"end":18676.958,"text":"做出一個示範給大家看這個部分您覺得呢那個我想可以從這個將來這個合約上看怎麼去規範不過有一些比較麻煩就是因為他們有時候是經過行銷公司那個行銷公司這個就是說我們當然行銷公司可能他有一些售價的一些策略這個我都知道可是我要求是說已經拿了補助了嘛"},{"start":18677.398,"end":18705.116,"text":"拿了補助他就應該我們要有這個行政機關我們主管機關應該要給他一些規範或者是給他一些勸導甚至是給他一些指引告訴他可能會衍生出後續的一些公關危機嘛所以這部分我希望說從這一次的事件我們內部是不是能夠研討一下我們會再看內部以後怎麼樣做你後續的資料可不可以給我你們研討的經濟方案怎麼去改善這個資料可以給我嗎未來怎麼樣去這方面的問題怎麼去預防我們在部長大概多久可以給我一個月吧"},{"start":18707.517,"end":18721.732,"text":"陳國長"},{"start":18724.335,"end":18741.172,"text":"部長好部長昨天有開記者會對於我們這個重大的交通事故所產生的這些後續政府的一些對策我想網路上的一些評論你有稍微看嗎雖然你也很忙但是因為你也是年輕人應該都會看網路的評論對於你面對問題願意解決問題"},{"start":18745.939,"end":18762.635,"text":"其實多半民眾跟網友是給予正向的但是還是有很多人擔心是不是這個風頭過了實際的政策有沒有真的到位改善我們是很擔憂的對於改善改革的這個期程可不可以加快"},{"start":18763.095,"end":18790.91,"text":"好 報告委員我們三個月以內會提出細部的計畫因為這個事情牽扯其實相當的廣包括我們未來整個檢測的但我要提醒的是所以三個月以內會提出細部你雖然說三個月了但我要提醒的是很多的事情讓民眾會如此的擔憂不是說無中生有一定是有潛力就是我們面對網路新聞媒體的速度很快但是後續真正去實際政策改革的時候很慢我怎麼說我們升降尾門"},{"start":18792.267,"end":18820.567,"text":"所產生的事故所造成的傷亡您目前掌握有多少人升降尾門貨車會有所謂的卸貨有一個升降尾門然後他在停的時候卸貨造成這個升降尾門呈平線然後變成視野無法去辨識造成撞擊產生的死亡您知道這個有死亡事故嗎這個事故我不曉得數字"},{"start":18821.888,"end":18848.624,"text":"來 我也不曉得數字啊但我要簡單跟你講網路搜尋我們都有一些相關的新聞報導兩年前就有一起兩年有點久了那每一起事故所造成他是死亡喔造成死亡我們就必須要改革嘛兩年前了這樣子的事故發生我們也沒有去做改革啊到三個月前你問你旁邊三個月前是不是還有一名我記得是夫妻造成傷亡對嗎"},{"start":18852.56,"end":18876.687,"text":"跟我們報告就是說呃就是停在路邊卸貨而這一個升降尾門操作不當而造成這一個呃受傷的部分的話就是說呃會有這樣操作不當我用字再更精準一點他基本上是已經完全停放在那邊了啦沒有在使用了但是就是因為他是平行線的然後升降尾門層層一條線啊黑暗的時候呢的確也看不太清楚直接就撞上了"},{"start":18877.367,"end":18892.004,"text":"所以在這個部分我要講的是3月27我們召開了一場有關貨車升降尾門的記者會我們呼籲對於升降尾門必須要有警示燈跟車尾燈兩者缺一不可而且車安中心也有召開會議預計什麼時候新車要開始安裝部長這個我們有規劃嗎"},{"start":18896.417,"end":18917.043,"text":"有 跟委員報告就是說 上次委員的一個這個意見那我們請車站中心邀請車體公務會大家來這個開會那目前這個車站中心在整理這些相關如果說要這個規定的規範是如何我想車站中心送上來之後我們會再來所以我要講的是嘛 部長"},{"start":18917.903,"end":18932.501,"text":"兩年前就發生一起傷亡了三個月前又一起傷亡人命不斷的流失結果我們呼籲了這麼久結果呢到現在你還是沒辦法給我一個允諾時間什麼時候可以開始安裝啊"},{"start":18933.223,"end":18961.792,"text":"跟委員報告下那個測量硬體是一塊那但是這個我們公務總局這個就是說給這個貨車的駕駛人指引裡面就有要求這些駕駛人的升降尾門他操作完畢之後一定要下來而且都要放這些指引我都知道就是因為你的這份指引還是造成傷亡嘛沒有用啊優先還是要因為這個駕駛人我們在記者會上建議新車115年1月1日開始安裝有沒有困難"},{"start":18965.421,"end":18980.296,"text":"有沒有困難做安裝115年1月1日安裝有沒有困難跟我們報告一下這個牽涉到就是說安裝那如果說只是去貼這個LED燈的話那個是這一個很快但是你整個要把它納到那個車輛設計裡面讓它做連動"},{"start":18983.058,"end":19009.226,"text":"來啦不管是新車跟舊車我們都希望有一些精進部長車安中心這一本紀錄3月27的會議拖了超過一個月到5月7號才有會議紀錄車安中心5月27還要針對車輛刑事安全審驗的一個管理辦法召開一個會議請問這次為什麼升降尾門的警示燈跟車尾騎案子沒有列入會議討論怎麼又不討論了這件事情不重要嗎"},{"start":19010.066,"end":19028.591,"text":"部長今天我提出這個問題就像你昨天開的記者會你面對問題願意解決問題可是你下面這些相關的一些主管機關並沒有去積極的面對嘛升降尾門就是其中一個我們今天把所有的案例關注在我們的這個三峽事件我們當然要重視"},{"start":19029.711,"end":19052.764,"text":"這個很重要可是三個月前才發生傷亡的升降尾門到現階段都還沒有具體的精進方案甚至連會議都不列入討論然後告訴你們1月1號明年的1月1號可不可以開始全面新車安裝沒有一個確定的答案所以我們對於政府現階段不信任嘛有一個這樣子的一個部長願意面對但是下面的人不願意去處理最後還是結論沒有嘛"},{"start":19054.205,"end":19080.144,"text":"所以今天部長你能不能承諾升降委門能不能積極面對你能不能開始要求我們部裡面自己我請這個公運監理師他們自己先來召開會議看如何精進這個部分我們部裡面先來做部長我今天舉出這個案例拜託你一定要稍微了解因為剛剛有稍微問你你也不太了解這樣的事故事故的多元性我當然能夠體諒但是這個事故我覺得這還有其必要性好嗎好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":19089.71,"end":19103.997,"text":"我們請徐欣林徐欣林徐欣林委員不在蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在蔡宜蔡宜蔡宜委員不在樓明財樓明財樓明財委員不在鄭振淺鄭振淺鄭振淺委員不在林德甫林德甫林德甫委員不在"},{"start":19105.692,"end":19129.649,"text":"現在登記執行委員均已發言完畢 做以下決定報告及詢討完畢委員李坤澤 林德福所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請交通部 速發部 工程會及相關機關競速以書面答覆"},{"start":19132.623,"end":19139.356,"text":"接下來處理討論事項一至三解凍案共二十二案請醫事人員宣讀"},{"start":19142.199,"end":19163.648,"text":"考論事項一審查及處理一百一四年度中央政府總預算關於交通部主管預算凍結案計十四案交通部含一字九減送該部一決議三大陸地區旅費凍結二分之一案二決議四派員出國計劃凍結五分之一案三新增決議九十九業務費凍結百分之七十案"},{"start":19164.648,"end":19173.69,"text":"四 新增決議101 媒體政策及業務宣導費 凍結20%案五 新增決議119 交通運輸規劃及產業發展 凍結28%案六 新增決議143 台鐵軌道結構安全提升計畫 凍結3000萬元案七 新增決議146 台鐵公司營業所需基礎設施重置計畫 凍結5000萬元案"},{"start":19192.054,"end":19211.14,"text":"八 新增決議一百四十期國際機場園區股份有限公司凍結兩億元案九 新增決議一百七十空運管理業務凍結百分之三十案十 交通部函減送中央氣象署決議期氣象科技研究發展凍結十分之一案"},{"start":19212.42,"end":19214.962,"text":"11.交通部函檢訊公安署及所屬新增決議180.觀光業務凍結30%案交通部函12.13.檢訊公路局及所屬12.決議1.媒體政策及業務宣導費"},{"start":19228.492,"end":19245.321,"text":"凍結十分之一案 十三 新增決議兩百一十一 公路及監理業務管理 凍結二十億元案 十四 交通部 交通部函檢送鐵道局及所屬 新增決議兩百四十五 業務費凍結百分之三十案"},{"start":19246.261,"end":19271.081,"text":"二、審查及處理一百一四年度中央政府總預算關於數位發展部主管預算凍結案計七案數位發展部含一至四簡訊該部一、決議四、獎補助費凍結十分之一案二、決議五、媒體政策及業務宣導費凍結十分之一案三、新增決議三百一十五數位創新關鍵基礎建設計劃凍結百分之五十案"},{"start":19271.841,"end":19272.662,"text":"4.新政決議338 創新數位跨域協作電競智慧應用基礎 凍結50%案"},{"start":19283.07,"end":19300.442,"text":"數位發展部函五至七減數數位產業署五決議三 獎補助費凍結一千萬元案六決議六 策進數位跨域應用與平台服務凍結十分之一案七 新增決議三百六十九 促進數位創新動能轉型升級凍結十億元案"},{"start":19305.465,"end":19317.312,"text":"三 處理一百一四年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公務工程委員會預算凍結案 暨一案依簡順新增決議八十二業務費凍結百分之五十案 宣讀完畢以上個案請問各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":19325.953,"end":19347.802,"text":"沒有陳水深委員教委是不是一條一條處理不用啦還全部一次喔對啊因為大家都不好看吧大家都蠻有公式的好看啊沒有沒幾條唸一下很快嘛你唸快一點好不好一條一條嘛尊重一下"},{"start":19349.563,"end":19366.603,"text":"你唸表頭就好了嘛,不要唸那麼細啊陳委員你就看你哪一條有特別的想法拿出來討論剛才都唸過了每一條都唸過了陳委員最支持我們的就一次啦"},{"start":19367.435,"end":19393.944,"text":"好,那我就代表國民黨還有民眾黨好不好好,謝謝我代表我的喔,我不能代表執政黨的好不好好,謝謝,謝謝陳委員他就全部同意解凍好,謝謝那要送院會處理好要送院會處理齁對,這本來就要送院會處理我們做成決議齁,好不好本來就要有這個程序,本來就是送院會完成程序啊OK好不好,那你解釋了嗎好"},{"start":19396.055,"end":19416.625,"text":"好感恩好好那做以下決議討論事項一之三個案均統一動之提報院會好那各位委員針對以上決議有沒有意見沒有沒有意見謝謝我們就通過以上決議現在休息明天早上上午九點繼續開會謝謝"},{"start":19423.699,"end":19424.72,"text":"谢谢大家"}]}},{"id":"16696","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16696","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcc04fde1d52825d899e564336fc7700a1a12e9ca99aa835c0013764facf898b9d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於總統府預算凍結項目共5案。\n二、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於國家安全會議預算凍結項目共4案。\n【5月19日及21日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-21","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-21T08:30:34+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-21T17:02:00+08:00","duration":30686,"影片長度":"08:31:26","委員發言時間":"08:30:34 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國安會還發聲明罵我們"},{"start":2092.18,"end":2120.507,"text":"說我們違反憲政的慣例我都覺得很奇怪國家安全委員會組織法明確的規定受立法院的監督請你來不來立法院要如何監督更可笑的是說我們違反憲政慣例之前民進黨在野的時候馬英九執政的時候國安會秘書長沒有來"},{"start":2122.469,"end":2126.172,"text":"那個時候 召委段宜康一樣通過譴責案只有同一個國家安全會議會隨著誰執政 誰在野標準有所不同今天國家安全會議秘書長吳釗燮上一次發那個譴責的聲明他說他很遺憾我老實講真的要覺得遺憾的是台灣人民"},{"start":2152.563,"end":2180.144,"text":"出了這麼大的包搞神隱吳釗燮現在是怎麼樣國安會的太上皇說不來就不來整個國會拿他沒皮條然後今天要來這邊解凍國安會的預算昭偉你覺得這樣適合嗎這樣今天還適合處理得下去嗎是不是可以請議事人員聯絡啊"},{"start":2181.956,"end":2204.901,"text":"請國安會秘書長來他今天不來這個預算結斷要怎麼處理這樣喔 因為我個人...沒有啦 召委我插一個話啦我們作為委員會的委員是沒有召委的權利啦可以直接準價不準價 愛來就不來要聯絡恐怕也是我們立法院司法法制委員會這邊作為一個組織體的責任吧"},{"start":2208.776,"end":2223.348,"text":"因為國安會的組織條例第八條其實已經寫得很清楚了那我也不懂說國安會為什麼一直不來國安會秘書長為什麼一直不來那他每次給我回的都叫做憲政慣例但我不知道憲政慣例是憲政的哪一條"},{"start":2224.269,"end":2239.145,"text":"我還是沒有聽到那否則是不是就麻煩要幫他們護航的委員不管哪一黨委員來趕快把組織法修掉你修掉之後我沒話說否則今天第八條還在的時候不要抗議我在講我的法律見解"},{"start":2239.966,"end":2257.312,"text":"那如果不懂的可以麻煩翻一下官會組織法第八條的法律規定文字寫得很清楚那如果你認為他不需要來那趕快把他修法修掉我就沒意見那否則現在法律還在的情況下我們還是要麻煩這些人要遵守國家的法律不要不遵守國家的法律"},{"start":2259.46,"end":2280.322,"text":"我們現在就是想辦法聯絡一下 看看秘書長能不能來我們還是很期待他過來啦 說明清楚 因為我也很痛恨共諜啦沒有 我具體建議啦 現在打電話 請他過來他沒有過來以前啦 先休息 這個是我的建議好 那個 王委員"},{"start":2290.711,"end":2302.017,"text":"好 主席在我們的預算凍結案我們也看到包含之前總統府包含今天的報告裡面也說這個有關於凍結案可能會對總統府的一些它的運作會產生影響等等之類的"},{"start":2309.881,"end":2316.726,"text":"那國安單位國安會也是如此那面對這樣子的一個預算案其實我真的覺得包含我們總統府秘書長即便公務繁忙如果說他可以來做一下報告其實在過去好多個委員會都是這樣的就是如果首長"},{"start":2330.336,"end":2358.838,"text":"真的有公務繁忙的時候他可以來做一個報告那有的甚至沒有接受詢答因為我知道有很多首長自己覺得自己很了不起啊他不想接受立委的詢答啊那通常呢其實不管哪一個黨派的這個召委啊其實也都會大家互相尊重但是呢我覺得今天我們處理的是總統府還有國安會兩大秘書長"},{"start":2361.02,"end":2369.928,"text":"連袂缺席我覺得對立法院來說其實真的真的非常不尊重尤其在解凍案我們也沒有再分黨派的啦就說我們該幫你們解凍案我們就來安排那大家也會很認真的好來讓我們的這個相關的這個會務啊能夠做一些運作能夠正常"},{"start":2384.264,"end":2398.744,"text":"可是問題是 你連來都不來這就代表你根本認為運作沒問題嘛所以你喊的是不是都是假的呢因為你連來都不要來所以當然啦 今天那個總統府秘書長喔"},{"start":2400.373,"end":2405.556,"text":"完全的缺席那昭緯說你有準價我們尊重昭緯的權責那請問一下國安會秘書長呢這已經不是第一次這是慣犯這是慣犯不敢是在發生共諜案這麼重要的事件社會各界矚目然後現在在預算案也一樣不來我真的就不理解了"},{"start":2427.189,"end":2448.996,"text":"那麼賴總統520昨天不是還在講嗎國安非常重要嗎然後呢會跟在野黨的主席啊來報告相關的國安情勢啊今天只是來報告一下國安的相關的預算都不願意那請問一下難道今天吳釗燮是要打賴清德總統的臉嗎昨天的話是怎麼樣呢"},{"start":2452.817,"end":2479.505,"text":"是只是說說好看而已嗎所以我覺得今天喔我個人還是會強力的譴責包含總統府秘書長還有國安會秘書長通通不來不遵守相關的法律的規定不遵守立法不尊重立法院的一個預算的監督權也不尊重人民要有知的權利啊"},{"start":2480.976,"end":2500.529,"text":"所以在今天我真的覺得 我們應該趕快啦真的請兩大秘書長 有這麼繁忙嗎?官會秘書長也好 或者總統府秘書長也好來做一些報告都不願意嗎?連踏進立法院的大門都不願意嗎?立法院有這麼可怕嗎?"},{"start":2503.208,"end":2521.505,"text":"所以如果說今天秘書長都不來那像今天在座的何志偉副秘書長我跟他也是好朋友我們過去在議會大家是老同事那我也很尊重他今天那他永遠都是笑笑的然後可是問題是"},{"start":2523.386,"end":2549.507,"text":"為什麼總統府秘書長連來做個半個小時的報告都不願意呢所以在這邊也是一樣啦如果說今天我們還是願意趕快等待兩大秘書長能夠過來來做一些報告如果你們真的很重視預算的話你們真的很重視解凍案的話請你們到立法院來做一些報告好不好我也是支持剛才黃國昌委員所講的"},{"start":2551.788,"end":2575.477,"text":"今天我們是不是趕快聯絡他們 讓他們趕快過來做報告好 等一下 我這邊跟委員會報告一下等一下他完之後再換我一下我跟委員會報告 確實昨天何富密有來跟我談了那他也講出秘書長沒有辦法來的原因那我昨天有跟何富密 我給他一個建議就是說那是不是可以他來一個小時"},{"start":2576.497,"end":2603.735,"text":"一個小時你之後有要務請假離開也可以這是第一個第二個我們可以配合秘書長什麼時候有空然後我們來開會我這邊已經完全善意你看我已經跟複密報告了核複密報告第一個是不是來一個小時說明完再趕快去趕公務我們可以答應第二個是不是可以你哪一天有空什麼時段有空我們配合你開會我其實善意都試盡了所以剛剛的委員"},{"start":2606.537,"end":2622.8,"text":"那個有一些意見我想我也可以理解我這邊就是在跟委員會報告其實有這個狀況那第二個當然就是因為官會的秘書長因為我剛剛有跟各位報告說因為我自己看到的官會組織法第八條是這樣規定所以我沒有辦法"},{"start":2623.621,"end":2651.514,"text":"準價你如果說偶而來一次一兩次要請假我沒有話說但是都不來我沒有辦法理解那再來就是說因為我們今天討論是預算解凍案我也很急著幫各部會以及總統府趕快預算解凍所以我們才趕快排預算解凍案那你不能一邊跟我喊窮一邊請你來說明你又不來所以這就是我們一直很希望MU長你至少來一個小時讓大家能夠跟你溝通那再來最後我是覺得是這樣我覺得一直講"},{"start":2653.174,"end":2674.06,"text":"國家安全很重要要趕快修國安實法一直說這樣不修就是要害慘害慘台灣的情況下那你們來說明一下這些國安的問題共諜的問題以及經費的使用問題那不是要趕快嗎所以這是我的立場我是希望大家能夠趕快來那我也麻煩待會祕書長兩位副祕書長能夠聯繫一下能夠麻煩他們過來"},{"start":2678.842,"end":2686.286,"text":"時間長短 我覺得至少你表現一下你能有過來那我們現在請那個羅志強委員 謝謝那吳委員就麻煩下一位"},{"start":2697.543,"end":2720.326,"text":"主席還有我們總統府跟國安會的列席的副秘書長還有我們在場的委員我在這邊還是想幫賴清德總統講句話你別的時間其實就算了我們雖然不滿意歸不滿意但今天我是幫賴清德總統表達我的不滿意為什麼呢"},{"start":2721.943,"end":2739.91,"text":"昨天520耶我想我們總統府的官員跟官會的官員你們到底有沒有在看總統的週年的演說呢有沒有看呢它上面主軸是什麼啊不就是團結跟對話嗎連總統他都要遞橄欖枝來邀請在野黨主席來進行對話了"},{"start":2753.334,"end":2780.691,"text":"結果才一天今天兩大秘書長你們就直接打臉總統的對話的誠意嗎我覺得這樣是非常對不起賴清德總統的啊你就挑戰520後他才講要對話結果你們就預算解凍案明明是你們的主管管該有的權限的說明的責任跟義務"},{"start":2782.489,"end":2809.346,"text":"然後你就雙雙缺席第一個我要講總統府的預算跟國安會的預算能夠決定的最終決定者就是首長就是總統府的秘書長這點我想志偉兄也很清楚就是國安會的秘書長所以今天針對自己部門的預算自己機關的預算"},{"start":2811.32,"end":2831.36,"text":"首長是有義務要來捍衛他的預算來說明他的預算這也是一個憲政上的義務我還不講賴清德總統已經揭示希望朝野可以對話就算沒有這對話昨天的對話演說今天"},{"start":2832.503,"end":2861.703,"text":"按照你自己 我們的機關對於自己的預算的一個所謂的一個捍衛的責任 說明的責任兩個機關首長也應該要過來啦這第二點第三點我要講什麼我也看到你們的這個總統府跟國安會的解凍報告啊裡面講的真是十萬火急耶很多的預算不解凍 政務無法推動很多預算要趕快解凍"},{"start":2863.339,"end":2887.53,"text":"但是我覺得今天我的感覺是不需要啊不要不要緊啊你自己首長你都不重視的時候就反而是我們立法院非常有誠意我們吳宗憲召委排了解凍案來趕快希望能夠幫我們的行政部門來去把預算怎麼樣讓你們可以解凍可以來繼續使用"},{"start":2889.264,"end":2915.316,"text":"如果說立法院今天司法法治委員會召委有這樣誠意的話我覺得真的兩位秘書長能不能拜託聯絡一下你至少來這邊一下然後呢說明一下現在總統府跟國安會的預算那就可以讓你們報告裡面講這麼嚴肅嚴峻這麼急迫急切的預算可以進到解凍的流程啊"},{"start":2916.926,"end":2929.111,"text":"所以這三點 第一個請尊重賴清德總統520演說裡面要對話的這樣的一個主張不要打臉賴清德總統第二個 機關首長預算的最終決定權"},{"start":2936.499,"end":2942.848,"text":"是機關首長在總統府就是總統府秘書長在國安會就是國安會秘書長機關首長有義務來立法院針對解凍事項進行報告這是義務"},{"start":2949.673,"end":2971.382,"text":"第三個這也是展現出今天照你們所說的機關非常迫切的需要這個預算的解凍但你們不能展現的是一個相反的行為嘛一方面說預算解凍多重要另外一方面你的機關首長覺得不重要連來都不肯來"},{"start":2972.982,"end":2995.456,"text":"所以也要拜託兩位副秘書長能夠聯絡一下 轉達一下那我也支持黃國昌委員的主張那機關首長來之前我們就先休息我們可以等他沒關係今天我們就在立法院等 等機關首長那請機關首長來 否則我們就先休息等到他來我們再繼續進行今天的解讀報告 以上"},{"start":2996.684,"end":3009.161,"text":"好 謝謝 我也十足的誠意以及努力希望趕快幫機關解凍我真的很希望趕快幫各機關都解凍所以也希望各機關能夠回應我們一點善意好 那我們下一位請吳志堯委員"},{"start":3019.818,"end":3036.571,"text":"謝謝主席那今天是要處理總統府跟國安會的預算的解凍案那當然我覺得尊重在野黨委員他們的一些看法當然立委是有監督的職責只是到底要說清楚講明白喔"},{"start":3037.572,"end":3065.924,"text":"如果說在野黨的委員是真的這麼關心國安的話這麼關心共諜的話那為什麼當民進黨的司法法治委員會的召委莊瑞雄就以同樣的共諜案的主題邀請立法院的周萬來秘書長來列席立法院如何防止共諜滲透安排了四次會議周萬來一次都沒來也沒有請假"},{"start":3067.017,"end":3093.531,"text":"所以說不要雙標所以如果真的在乎共諜滲透的議題為什麼在立法院就可以縱容立法院可以成為共諜滲透的破口嗎當然不行但是在要求我們監督立法院自我克責國會自律的時候在野黨藍白的委員是護航包庇周恩來可以不來列席還不請假"},{"start":3094.691,"end":3115.293,"text":"對於委員會的藐視絕對是比藐視國會更藐視國會這個是周恩來創下來的惡例第二個如果在野黨的委員這麼的在乎國安議題的話就在昨天程序委員會民進黨委員所提的國安法案被你們擋了第407次"},{"start":3118.028,"end":3131.74,"text":"連程序委員會排案都沒有辦法排國安法案就立委附中登載的這件事情被你們擋了407次藍白的委員真的關心國安嗎剛剛"},{"start":3134.673,"end":3161.355,"text":"有委員說到國安實法很重要是的你們終於想起國安實法很重要了到目前為止提案審查國安實法的多數都是民進黨的立委呀一個月前在內政委員會審查國安法的時候九個版本都是民進黨委員提案的呀反滲透法都是民進黨委員提案的呀"},{"start":3162.475,"end":3187.443,"text":"在野黨的委員這麼關心國安那真的拜託說到做到未來我們在審議任何國安實法的內容都可以理性正向的討論這才是真正的關心國安那回到今天委員會要凍結預算我想用過去的一些數字來做說明過去立法院不論誰當家"},{"start":3191.055,"end":3212.709,"text":"藍綠誰當家或者是中央執政總統是藍是綠確實在立法院都曾經發生過總統府秘書長或是國安會秘書長因為另有要工而必須請假立法院的委員會這確實不論誰執政都發生過但我用數字來說話"},{"start":3214.75,"end":3240.092,"text":"第五届的時候邀請國安會秘書長30次他缺席了12次第六届邀請國安會秘書長出席16次會議他缺席了7次會議第七届的時候八次邀請國安會秘書長他缺席兩次第八届的時候邀了13次缺席10次這是過去"},{"start":3241.584,"end":3266.474,"text":"秘書長們循程序來請假立法院過去也都有准假的例子如果以解凍案我再一次用具體的例子這都是議事登載可以查的馬英九執政的時候2010年5月31號第七屆第五會期國安會的預算解凍是由葛光月副秘書長來出席"},{"start":3268.396,"end":3288.876,"text":"準價了而且如值如期的解凍了馬英九任內一樣是第七屆2010年的10月對不起2010年第七會期一樣是葛光月副秘書長出席解凍會議也順利解凍了主席準價了"},{"start":3290.277,"end":3304.507,"text":"在馬英九執政2013年10月30號第八屆第四次會議的時候也是處理國安會預算解凍當時出席代表是陸副秘書長一樣順利解凍了 主席准假了"},{"start":3311.11,"end":3327.841,"text":"這都是議事錄的登載過去馬英九當總統的時候國安會作為總統的幕僚機關國安會的預算解凍當然重要啊馬英九前總統當時應當也很重視國安會的每一筆預算的致用因為都關乎國安啊"},{"start":3328.661,"end":3342.963,"text":"可是呢在解凍案的時候這三次會議出席代表都是國安會的副秘書長南道藍白的委員剛剛羅志強當時應當就是馬英九的幕僚就在總統府啊"},{"start":3344.202,"end":3362.011,"text":"那個時候難道派副秘書長來處理解凍案就代表國安會不在乎預算嗎馬英九前總統不在乎預算嗎不是這樣嘛所以我用具體的例子過去國安會秘書長來立法院受邀跟請假"},{"start":3363.243,"end":3380.682,"text":"的次數不論誰執政立法院不論誰當家循程序請假都有被准假而就扣和今天的解凍案馬英九前總統執政的時候我剛舉了三次會議都是處理國安會解凍案都是由副秘書長當時有被這樣"},{"start":3386.035,"end":3411.678,"text":"批評的一文不值批評的國安會不在乎預算嗎我覺得不要兩套的標準不要用這種政治的操作今天國安會的預算有三筆要解凍如果我沒有資料沒有解讀錯誤的話一個是諮詢研究業務一百萬一個是諮詢研究業務兩百萬另外一個呢是針對"},{"start":3414.572,"end":3426.639,"text":"徵務人員待遇十萬元就人事費的部分的解凍應當就是特別費之類的這三筆的數額大家我是希望能夠循程序好好來理性討論解凍案"},{"start":3428.547,"end":3451.6,"text":"那我也要我剛剛特別請示了一下我請教了一下謝謝主席昨天有接見我們總統府的副秘書長何志偉他昨天去特別跟您報告今天潘秘書長另有要工然後由他來代理預算的解凍然後您轉嫁了其實總統府預算被凍結的數額是國安會的N倍被凍結了應該是2.14億吧國安會就是這個幾百萬"},{"start":3458.024,"end":3469.03,"text":"可是這個2.14億的解凍預算呢我們的吳釗燮召委是同意給潘孟安秘書長請假然後由志偉、傅密來代理2.14億的解凍預算但國安會的幾百萬的解凍預算呢"},{"start":3473.192,"end":3490.373,"text":"就我知道的昨天我們的徐副秘書長昨天下午三點鐘左右也前往了吳宗憲召委的辦公室親自就跟志偉副秘一樣親自跟召委報告說明今天吳兆憲秘書長之所以要請假的理由"},{"start":3491.434,"end":3507.896,"text":"但是呢我們的吳昭偉昨天仍在辦公室但他沒有接見我們的徐副秘書長換言之徐副秘書長沒有這麼lucky沒有像志偉秘書長一樣可以見到吳昭偉然後可以順利成功的請假"},{"start":3508.837,"end":3529.866,"text":"所以昨天呢國安會是很重視的就跟今天總統府的秘書長一樣昨天都親自到吳釗偉的辦公室去口頭說明希望能夠准假但是釗偉准了總統府秘書長的假也見了何富密非常謝謝可是我們的吳釗偉沒有見國安會的副秘書長讓他在那裡等"},{"start":3534.264,"end":3562.429,"text":"那徐富密等不到吳釗偉吳釗偉仍在辦公室但他沒有接見我不知道什麼理由不曉得在忙什麼所以造成請假不順利他們一樣非常尊重釗偉可是釗偉對於兩個秘書長的請假的處理顯然也有一些不同的考量2.14億總統府的預算被凍結是史上新高但是釗偉同意用富密來代理解凍"},{"start":3563.7,"end":3573.058,"text":"不代表交委就認為總統府的預算比較隨便不重要覆密來就好我相信交委一定都同樣的嚴謹的審視可是就"},{"start":3576.278,"end":3603.806,"text":"請假徵詢親自到您辦公室報告要請假這個事情我也不知道張偉為什麼有兩種做法所以說國安會秘書長也好總統府秘書長也好包括我們執政黨我們對於預算都非常的在乎對於總統府的預算前所未有的刪減數跟凍結數我們都希望總統府只剩下九千萬可以用了只剩下九千萬可以用了"},{"start":3605.037,"end":3632.49,"text":"事事那就讓總統府的預算我們可以來處理但是我還是請主席喔當然我們尊重大家的意見 要不然人家是要你請假你不給人家記名不給人家聽人家的解說不給人家請假會合理理由過去不要人家叫總統的時候解凍案三屆都是副秘書長就來啊我很想問 劉志強現在沒在了啊我很想問問 劉志強啊過去是你的前老闆 你就在總統府欸"},{"start":3633.891,"end":3647.171,"text":"你們那時候也是赴秘書上來做解凍啊不要雙標啦那在乎預算就趕快來審查預算我認為這才是真正的在乎在乎預算我們就"},{"start":3648.348,"end":3665.23,"text":"循程序來尋答如果我們的徐富密招架不住在野黨委員的垂尋他對於國安事務的涉獵沒有達到在野黨委員的要求你們要對解凍案做什麼處置我們是少數黨我們只能尊重啊"},{"start":3665.891,"end":3681.539,"text":"可是徐富密在國安領域的服務他的專業我相信上職巡台 職求對決就預算論預算 就國安論國安這才是合理 公平然後我也希望司法法制委員會能夠來進行下面的議程"},{"start":3685.929,"end":3702.555,"text":"謝謝吳委員 那我這邊跟委員會還有吳委員還有徐副秘報告我不是對兩位副秘書長不同的對待模式因為何副秘書長在前一天就打電話跟我約時間但徐副秘書長沒有跟我約時間"},{"start":3705.933,"end":3734.648,"text":"我想許副秘書長在這邊我們可以實話實說他沒有給我約時間所以吳少偉委員這就是原因那第二個原因是賴總統蕭副總統他身邊沒有人涉犯共諜案但是我們的吳秘書長他身邊有人涉犯共諜案所以這也是為什麼兩邊我們看法會不一樣的地方我今天不會把賴總統跟蕭副總統我就對他不尊敬或是硬要"},{"start":3736.069,"end":3762.722,"text":"總統府秘書長一定要怎麼樣所以這就是不一樣啊我想國任也可以接受吧因為我們從來沒有聽說過賴總統跟蕭副總統身邊有問題啊所以我對他們兩位我從來不認為他們兩位需要為共諜案或我們擔心的國家安全說明啊但是吳釗燮秘書長有這個疑慮國任也有疑慮的時候那難道我不該請他來稍微說明以上就是我並不是雙標在對待我在這邊說明清楚"},{"start":3764.005,"end":3791.984,"text":"好那謝謝主席的說明啦雖然我覺得人都已經在您辦公室了您也在裡頭不見這個實在是有一點沒關係好不講這個事情尊重您尊重您好好好尊重您尊重您那以後請約好我不知道有沒有約那今天因為現在是這樣啦我們很在乎預算我們當然希望能夠進行那在場我跟逸川兩位委員我們是希望逸川能夠繼續進行那尊重張偉啦因為在場現在就是黃國昌委員一位嘛"},{"start":3792.83,"end":3820.323,"text":"那要不要繼續進行我們現在想好就是因為我剛有聽其他委員的做法我在這邊先跟各位報告如果今天我不重視預算結東岸我們也很重視謝謝我們也很重視我就不會急著排更何況其實何富密找過很多次沒有啦主席我們把規則講清楚好不好是你講話我們大家都可以按著麥克風講話是不是你非常尊重你的議事主席喔我非常尊重你的議事主席喔現在是我的發言時間才對耶"},{"start":3821.724,"end":3827.931,"text":"只要有我即時會不會信任你同意就不差略什麼這樣好啦 都安靜你三個時間已經快到了你才有時間你才有時間你才有時間你才有時間你才有時間你才有時間"},{"start":3837.562,"end":3845.852,"text":"他現在是在回答我的問題他現在是在回答我的問題這是我發言的時間麻煩兩位秘書長幫我們聯繫秘書長隨時秘書長有空我們都可以馬上開會好 我們現在休息 謝謝"},{"start":21761.342,"end":21765.588,"text":"好那我們繼續開會先進行機關報告發言時間五分鐘我們先請總統府副秘書長何志偉副秘書長報告"},{"start":21780.606,"end":21802.64,"text":"謝謝主席召委跟現場的委員還有現場的同仁首先感謝貴委員會今天召開會議審查總統府114年度預算的解凍案承蒙各位委員長期以來對總統府的支持與指教在此致上最高最高的敬意那貴院審查總統府114年度預算"},{"start":21803.28,"end":21822.194,"text":"目前所凍結的這個決議共六項目總統府均依照決議於114年4月25日將報告函送給貴院有關該凍結的凍結案呢所提示向總統府辦理情形請各位委員參閱這個報告資料之說明"},{"start":21825.716,"end":21848.218,"text":"總統府一四年度稅出的預算案編列了十一億兩千三百零二萬三千元經貴院審議這個刪減掉五千五百三十七萬六千元法定預算為十億六千七百六十四萬七千元凍結兩億兩千一百零八萬三千元"},{"start":21849.96,"end":21859.345,"text":"114年度山洞預算高度的集中在業務費這高達了2億6千萬餘元的這個山洞數創下了15年來的新高那這個也超過15年來的總和的3.58倍14年度山洞後業務費可支用"},{"start":21872.392,"end":21888.438,"text":"僅剩下九千一百七十六萬四千元僅為原編列數的百分之二十六目前完全不足指引我們總統府基本運作所經費那在兩週後跟大家報告"},{"start":21889.898,"end":21905.347,"text":"臺灣我們中華民國的總統府將無法負擔水電費了甚至總統府的維安會受到多重的嚴重衝擊我們總統府的市衛警的三餐呢也無法供應我們的阿兵哥兄弟姊妹們"},{"start":21906.147,"end":21921.341,"text":"可能會餓的柱子來執勤在這樣的酷暑下我很擔心我們很擔心那另外我們國內外重要的賓客元首前元首來到總統府我們沒有辦法正常的迎接"},{"start":21922.302,"end":21950.331,"text":"這可能會重創我們中華民國台灣的國際形象此外跟各位委員還有貴院報告很感謝你們專業的問政不斷的提醒提醒資安及國安總統府的資訊服務費與資訊設備費共計凍結了一千萬元那總統府每年遭受駭客攻擊已經超過八千萬次形勢有點辛苦"},{"start":21950.951,"end":21958.459,"text":"所以在這邊再次拜託那總統府為總統依據憲法行使職權之幕僚機關承認辦理總統行使職權有關事項依據尊潔經時原則編列一四年度預算以支應各項業務運作基本需求經費"},{"start":21971.272,"end":21991.188,"text":"一四年度預算凍結數 建請貴院同意解凍凍資以利總統府各項業務順利推展整體國政順利推動 為更好的中華民國台灣一起攜手努力以上報告 敬請各位委員支持指教 拜託謝謝好 謝謝 那下一位我們請國安會副秘書長報告"},{"start":22007.85,"end":22036.795,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生首先感謝各位委員長期以來對本會議的支持與指教貴院審查本會議一四年度預算最初部分通過決議預算凍結案及四案本會議一決議於一四年四月二十五日將相關報告函送貴院以下緊究凍結項目及本會議辦理情形提出重點報告進行指教一"},{"start":22040.677,"end":22053.625,"text":"凍結業務費30%並提出預算執行情形之專案報告經同意後 使得用之感謝國運支持本會議單位預算近3年從2013年至2011年至2013年之業務費每年度編列約4000餘萬元執行率均達96%以上"},{"start":22062.872,"end":22068.061,"text":"執行情況良好各項年度計劃系配合相關部會與機關政策與預算審慎規劃辦理"},{"start":22073.069,"end":22093.496,"text":"本會議一四年度主要工作重點包括辦理基本行政運作所需之水電輸入資訊等業務定期及不定期國家安全各項會議之召開及議事之處理與辦理國防外交兩岸全社會防衛任性自動安全等"},{"start":22094.701,"end":22099.664,"text":"諮詢研究業務14年度業務費預算編列4339萬8千元截至4月底累計支出數1334萬2千元各項工作計劃均依照進度辦理二凍結諮詢業務費"},{"start":22117.789,"end":22137.765,"text":"諮詢研究業務費100萬元,於三個月內提出專案報告並經同意後,使得動之。針對本項決議所列之預算,主要系為辦理外交、國防、兩岸經貿及自通安全等議題,所需派員赴國內外重要安全機構及國內外智庫參與研討、訪談、邀訪外賓及短程車子等必要經費。"},{"start":22143.51,"end":22162.364,"text":"各項明細已如列於報告中請委員參閱三令諮詢研究業務費凍結兩百萬元提書面報告經同意後使得凍支與凍結一般行政政務人員待遇十萬元提書面報告後使得凍支等案"},{"start":22163.581,"end":22186.266,"text":"本會議也針對本會議與所屬國安局之憲政定位及其執掌與總統成立氣候變遷等三委員會與本會議的角色功能並無干擱之處以及諮詢委員人士費系依據國安會組織法及配合總統用人核實編列與書面報告亦有詳細說明"},{"start":22189.828,"end":22208.1,"text":"4.為因應全球政經變化,2014年度本會議仍持續掌握國際局勢及區安全及即時變化,擬定應處方案。國外增進與由我國家實質互動,對國內提升全社會防衛韌性,以確保國家整體安全。"},{"start":22208.9,"end":22225.337,"text":"本會議一四年度預算均按業務需求及本遵節原則核實編列及審慎執行為利業務順利推動懇請同意解除預算凍結以上報告敬請各位委員指教與支持謝謝"},{"start":22230.364,"end":22254.714,"text":"機關代表報告完畢 相關書面報告請各位參閱並列入公報記錄那我們現在開始進行詢答 詢答後就接著處理預算解凍案本會委員詢答時間為6分鐘 非本會委員詢答時間4分鐘不再延長下午4點截止發言登記那我們現在先請翁曉琳委員代理主席"},{"start":22269.468,"end":22285.795,"text":"好 現在請吳宗憲委員質詢是 我們麻煩兩位複密好 那首先我先謝謝"},{"start":22288.154,"end":22313.327,"text":"何富密至少在前一天還有跟我提到說要來要討論這個秘書長沒辦法到的事情那至於國安會的秘書長就是也都不來我也不是我覺得這不是一個處理事情的方式更何況我早上其實有在講組織法第8條寫得很清楚國安會就是要向立法院負責"},{"start":22316.616,"end":22335.553,"text":"秘書長總是不來而且不來也都不聯絡那我要跟大家報告一下到現在此刻為止其實兩位秘書長也都沒有一通電話過來過那我想說預算這個東西啊民進黨以及很多親鳥已經拿這個東西已經大做文章半年了"},{"start":22336.374,"end":22356.795,"text":"中間更有非常多造謠 後來被打臉澄清的事情那已經玩了半年的東西然後之前我們又遇到坊間的傳說以及公務體系內的傳說說左宗泰要求大家不要把解凍案送來送到立法院那後來突然間又叫大家把解凍案送來"},{"start":22357.896,"end":22380.43,"text":"那今天總統府的解凍案送過來其實我也是很善意的趕快排進來我們希望幫大家解凍因為我知道總統府的預算裡面還有包括更多跟總統府有關的譬如說憲兵的一些費用的支出或一些必要的水電支出所以我很誠意的希望趕快排進來來幫大家解決這個問題結果我們排了以後"},{"start":22385.647,"end":22391.26,"text":"總府秘書長也不願意來然後國安會的秘書長也不願意來那我也是"},{"start":22392.128,"end":22414.675,"text":"很誠意的跟兩位副秘書長在早上也報告了而且我其實昨天就有講了啦就說那你今天如果真的有藥物不能來那是不是可以來一個小時就好比如說九點開始然後你十點開始請假那你至少來一個小時有些委員需要問問題的可以問得到那也不行啊然後再來就是說"},{"start":22415.905,"end":22431.318,"text":"那我說好 那療癒秘書長何時有空我們會議可以專門為你排你有空的時候麻煩你來 也不來那這個就不是你因公無法道了我想這個就是不會送來就對了啦就看你不好不會送來啦"},{"start":22431.818,"end":22458.813,"text":"我覺得就是這樣那至少我剛剛為什麼說感謝何副秘書長這何副秘書長還有那個嫌秘書長的意思還先來我們好好的溝通了一下那吳釗燮秘書長是連甩都不甩我們那如果對於說預算解凍這個事情這個是你們要用的預算然後我們這麼誠意的幫你排了然後你還是愛來不來我覺得"},{"start":22460.157,"end":22481.654,"text":"這做法就不對 那我剛剛所論述的每一件事實都是這兩天發生的事實那我也只能說 立法院 市長法治委員會已經用盡了所有的善意 希望好好的處理預算但是我們面對的是 他就是不甩你 然後對外就說我的錢都被卡死 我無法施政 藍白爛三 爛凍結預算"},{"start":22483.82,"end":22511.349,"text":"那我希望全國人民看清楚這些嘴臉你連來都不來我告訴你法條的依據你應該到立法院來要該來負責你給我回一句說憲政慣例我不用來那你憲政慣例是憲政的哪一條慣例你請你告訴我你到今天也都還不告訴我那這樣以後我面對民意代表我的邏輯就是憲政慣例啊我為什麼甩你所以原來當官是這樣在當的"},{"start":22514.704,"end":22534.269,"text":"我希望說全民看清楚吧我想請教一下何副秘書長因為總統有提到說要來提一個國安情勢的簡報那請問一下這個到底他又說 他在昨天也有提到說希望政黨合作"},{"start":22534.989,"end":22554.905,"text":"那我們當然第一個講到矛盾的點是 你一邊說要政黨合作 另外一方面你又在那邊支持大罷免然後一直在歡呼這件事情 那我想請教你一下那既然他說要政黨合作 那又提了一個國安情勢報告那請問一下 他要的這個國安情勢報告的內容到底是什麼"},{"start":22555.7,"end":22578.829,"text":"我想跟委員報告現在所有的幕僚作業正在進行當中因為是昨天才正式的對外公布那因為我想各位委員都很專業也許大家針對他想要看到的報告或是哪個方面我們這邊都可以互相的溝通並且後續可以再讓幕僚作業來製作來產出那是抱歉是"},{"start":22579.289,"end":22594.266,"text":"沒有啦 因為我想 就是 好吧 那現在是幕僚還在處理啦但是我想要提的一個就是我雖然說到政壇才一年多 但我覺得政治的真諦是在於溝通跟協調我想這個大家都不會否認 而不是說造謠跟抹紅"},{"start":22595.347,"end":22618.004,"text":"但這段時間我看到的就是講不贏你 法治上講不贏你 就給你扣紅帽子就扣你說你是中共同路人或什麼 這種東西這段時間我們每天都在遇到那我也只能就是說 跟複密報告一個點就是其實總統身為民進黨黨主席 他也是國家的總統那他有權利去任命這些行政院院長 還有大法官 所以"},{"start":22619.125,"end":22645.703,"text":"我至少到目前為止我只有聽到總統說他希望在執政跟在野大家好好的團結合作和諧的來從事國政可是並沒有看到一個實際的作為那我看到的只是司法上面的一些雙標以及施政上面的一些雙標甚至就我剛剛講到的他一方面說你刪我預算你爛凍結我預算但是我們排了解凍案結果秘書長又不來"},{"start":22646.604,"end":22663.523,"text":"然後我們卑微的 不要說卑微啦我沒有講說 我說配合你的時間你什麼時間有空 我什麼時間都可以為你而開晚上12點也可以 但是他還是不來我說真的 我當召委 我今天訂的這個議程我連一通電話我都沒接到這兩位偉大的秘書長"},{"start":22665.236,"end":22691.906,"text":"我們今天好歹我是民意代表但我連一通兩位的電話我都沒有接到今天早上麻煩複密然後跟秘書長聯繫但我到現在我什麼資訊都沒有就空等了那麼久但是我們今天是在為兩位所帶領的機關在想辦法幫你解凍要拿預算給你用結果你卻這樣子處理這個是我沒有辦法理解的地方啦當然我也覺得"},{"start":22693.274,"end":22722.355,"text":"秘書長爛這東西不能讓基層的這些憲兵等等的這些人來吃苦或是讓總統府的公務員吃苦我們不捨得讓這些基層因為長官的爛而必須要吃苦所以很多時候我們不得不去救一些預算部分我們只能說很多苦我們就吞下來你今天不學我們我們就吞下來但我沒有辦法說讓那些士官兵在那裡然後連飯都沒得吃"},{"start":22723.427,"end":22751.448,"text":"然後冷氣沒得開然後像那個何富密跟我說他熱到都要中暑其實我都捨不得 捨不得何富密受這樣的苦但我也是很不屑不恥秘書長們做這種事情就因為他不屑民意機關這就是賴總統 賴政府執政之下帶領的這些高官們就是看不起 不屑民意機關我們還叫做民主國家嗎這是我自己心中的一個感觸啦"},{"start":22756.347,"end":22777.027,"text":"我覺得之前賴總統有提到的那個賴17點以及我們這次他所希望做到的這個國安情勢簡報我們還是希望一件事情因為共諜案發生了這麼久我們還是搞不太清楚整個方向那但是這個東西"},{"start":22778.496,"end":22801.468,"text":"我們國家安全受到危害的時候其實不管每個人民或是立委們都很擔心這個事情所以我還是一個具體的建議啦我希望說檢報的內容能夠跟我們說明幾個點就是我希望第一個跟我們說明到底是發生了什麼事情還有什麼時候開始的那第二個就是說到底是這些"},{"start":22802.468,"end":22819.606,"text":"敵對的勢力是誰 機敏資料持有人 金手人 這個怎麼查核還有滲透的原因還有為什麼選擇這些人下手我想這個在我簡報上面都有還有最後你要怎麼解決這個問題尤其怎麼解決才是最重要因為我們不能容認國家在被"},{"start":22821.407,"end":22849.173,"text":"某些勢力不管是來自於境外或境內的人他去滲透國家的安全去破壞國家的安全我想說這幾個東西要麻煩你們在將來的那個簡報裡面能夠都把這個東西能夠提起來能夠讓我們理解一下更何況這些共諜其實我們發現他們都還有在繳民進黨的黨費他其實就還是民進黨的黨員是發生事情之後才被開除的所以"},{"start":22849.833,"end":22876.463,"text":"我覺得 當然我可以理解一個點啦就像上市櫃公司一樣大家要去查你的商業機密他當然要從那些技術人員那邊去滲透他不會去滲透外面的散戶所以這些人很大量的存在執政黨或者是執政黨的輔會黨團等等或是中央機關 這個我可以理解這個是邏輯上是合邏輯的所以 但是呢 你應該還是要找出一個方法去解決啊"},{"start":22877.796,"end":22885.788,"text":"這還是要找一個方法去解決而不能放任這些人就繼續在裡面去侵害我們這個國家所以我想總統他真正要交代的"},{"start":22887.35,"end":22914.241,"text":"這共諜到底是怎麼樣這些人怎麼養成的而不是跟我們說我去搞了一個急難救助金就可以因為我覺得狀況不會是這麼low不會是他欠幾個錢他就會出賣靈魂給某些敵人我想不是這樣好 如果這個人可以用錢來打動的話你的敵人永遠可以出比你更高的價碼去鎖定那幾個特定人所以絕對不是立了一個什麼急難救助金就可以解決問題"},{"start":22915.621,"end":22942.734,"text":"我不相信是這樣啦我相信如果你們認為的敵人是中國大陸的話以民進黨現在認定的敵人是中國大陸中國大陸絕對有辦法出更高的價碼去買通其他人所以這不是解決問題的方式請大家能夠真的找出問題來解決如果你是有心解決如果你不是把國家安全只是當作政治籌碼在那邊做政治攻擊的話如果你真心要解決國家安全受侵害的問題"},{"start":22943.655,"end":22958.492,"text":"請拿出正確的方式來做然後機要人員的查核是不是可以告訴我們過去問題出在哪裡那將來你怎麼改正因為這次有發生機要人員的問題然後發生長期都沒有被安全查核嘛"},{"start":22958.812,"end":22975.672,"text":"那這到底是包出在哪裡那有沒有需要立法院協助修法這也是麻煩你們能夠告訴我們一下否則啊 區區幾千塊美金幾萬塊你就把國家安全都出賣了那我們也希望喔政府在查緝共諜的時候能夠向查辦國民黨"},{"start":22977.094,"end":22999.766,"text":"涉犯的幽靈連署一樣到處大搜索大約談然後到處申請羈押我希望辦共諜能有像辦國民黨的這樣的決心跟這樣的力道哪怕是二分之一的力道也可以啦好好的辦共諜啦真正在讓這個國家陷於危險的是這些共諜啦真正是這些人啦而不是"},{"start":23000.646,"end":23030.096,"text":"我跟你講啦 違照文書我從以前到現在我都說是違法的我從來沒有說過它合法但它跟國家安全比起來共諜這麼嚴重你為什麼不好好的辦所以我還是希望國家能夠重視我們國家安全出了問題這件事情而不要在那邊講一些風涼話叫做沒有被滲透的才是真正有問題這種話都出來好那再麻煩那個何富密這邊能夠協助然後另外"},{"start":23031.977,"end":23052.406,"text":"呃 國安會這邊齁真的要麻煩您跟吳秘書長提醒一下請他去看一下國安會的組織法不然請他找他友好的立委把國安會組織法第八條修掉如果第八條沒有修掉的時候請依法行政麻煩你們請依法行政好 謝謝各位兩位辛苦了 謝謝"},{"start":23062.199,"end":23086.097,"text":"下一位我們請王逸川委員發言好 謝謝主席我們請國安會和副秘書長麻煩副秘書長好副秘書長好以後你們這個秘書長沒要來"},{"start":23091.121,"end":23118.094,"text":"要提早跟我們趙薇說,因為這個上禮拜,就拜的會啦你們就昨天才去,這樣沒有什麼誠意啦上禮拜你們應該就接到通知了嘛我們上禮拜我們就都知道啦展現一下誠意,因為你們去用凍結也沒有多少錢就不夠這樣可以又沒有開到會你像我們這個立法院的秘書長,那走亂來"},{"start":23120.151,"end":23144.584,"text":"他是就叫他們投機韓國的,寫一張配來,說我們不去這是他叫他們投機寫,你們不用,你們就下次排會的時候啊按照慣例該怎麼做就怎麼做,好不好針對這個解凍案啊,裡面有一個第四個案子啊這個凍結一般行政人士會政務人員待遇十萬元這到底是什麼東西呢凍結十萬元,這個會解釋一下"},{"start":23153.983,"end":23172.214,"text":"這個應該原來是翁委員的案子那主要是翁委員那個時候對本會那個不是啊 我現在是說為什麼是十萬元啦"},{"start":23175.596,"end":23194.175,"text":"這個我們當時後來決定就是用10萬元本來好像沒有要動後來又動動10萬元但我們也就是按照這個數目來辦理當天有沒有另外的同仁在的可不可以解釋一下當時這10萬是百分比還是怎樣"},{"start":23199.829,"end":23211.019,"text":"因為你們的解釋是六個人變七個人 國安諮詢委員嘛然後怎麼會比例 是比例造成十萬元是不是他好像不是因為人數變動啊 是有沒有同仁可以把當時的情境講一下"},{"start":23217.577,"end":23234.81,"text":"委員好我是人事主任陳佩婷跟您報告就是當時我們在編列諮詢委員的人數預算的時候是從6人變成7人對那是符合我們組織法上面的規定那因為當時增加多一位那就是翁委員還有"},{"start":23236.351,"end":23251.503,"text":"當時在場的幾位委員對於說為什麼多編列一位諮詢委員這樣子有一些顧慮所以希望我們就為什麼多編列的部分講清楚所以才會有一個十萬塊的預算保留喔 就一數一數就對了不是說給十萬就對了"},{"start":23255.149,"end":23283.341,"text":"就是說原來六個為什麼變七個那法定就是可以提七個當時就是總統只有提六個今年度要變七個所以變了七個的預算那一戶而已好 這個第一個這看起來沒有什麼問題啦那第二個案子啊第二個案子有一個諮詢業務費用一百萬元那三個月提出專案報告並經同意後取得動資"},{"start":23285.492,"end":23309.193,"text":"那這個當時的決議是要提一個專案報告那你們的回答是說這個報告是幕僚作業寫完的報告是給總統決策參考具有一些機敏性時不宜對外公布按照這些相關的法令你們就不宜公開這樣要怎麼解凍"},{"start":23313.373,"end":23337.196,"text":"那個我們大概是把我們出國的哪些國別那個會議的次數跟人數有在報告裡面爐列就是簡單講就是說我們用這個錢並沒有亂用基本上還是主要是出國去開會好那我請教一下你們這些出國的這些費用按照國家別因為一定有預定的國家才編得出這些數字嗎"},{"start":23338.337,"end":23360.051,"text":"因為不同的城市有不同的生活費嘛然後有不同的這個交通差旅的費用嘛這是國家規定的好那這一個就是你們現在認定你們就是交出這一些就叫專案報告了是不是包委員說實話我們出國的專案報告通常都是上一個簽給總統"},{"start":23362.577,"end":23378.995,"text":"那因為我們是憲政上面來講總統諮詢機關我們不是行政機關所以我們那個報告就不變公開所以就是說實際上什麼時候到什麼地方去開一個什麼樣的會"},{"start":23381.347,"end":23385.652,"text":"這個在這個定義裡頭不會是公開資訊不是不是公開資訊所以當時這個委員會要求這個凍結這一個相關的費用然後要請你們提專案報告並經同意這個專案報告的定義啊"},{"start":23399.266,"end":23427.313,"text":"你們今天就把它定義你們今天已經算題專案報告了對不對是就是大致那個報告裡面OK 好就是你們這裡頭寫的是多少人次然後這個參加幾場的會議是然後總共累積是幾天嘛是這就是你們定義的專案報告還有區域還有區域對還有區域那至於那個區域是什麼國家什麼樣的場合你們也就沒辦法講就沒辦法講好"},{"start":23428.627,"end":23432.17,"text":"我先請副秘書長總統府副秘書長"},{"start":23457.621,"end":23485.636,"text":"今天我們要處理國安會嗎有 國安會也有在今天同時處理國安會啊就是看大家覺得對 進行詢答OK好那請總統府好了黃衛委員好好 今天我們副秘書長展現了那個人盯人的做法但是我必須要講"},{"start":23487.438,"end":23511.656,"text":"還是要譴責一下 我們兩大秘書長都不來立法院顯然是不重視不重視整個的立法院 也不重視預算我必須講 我們一直在講說要強化國家任性 國家任性但是呢 我們現在整個的總統 總統府乃至於國安會很任性啊是很任性的 想來就來 想不來就不來"},{"start":23513.496,"end":23540.667,"text":"不但是今天立法院的預算凍結我想在上個星期5月17號舉行的雙北市壯運其實最近的成績看到有很多百歲的人類還可以有好的成績八十幾歲也有好的成績激勵了非常非常多的長者很多年輕人看了也都非常感動"},{"start":23541.921,"end":23569.534,"text":"結果5月17號 我想請問一下台北市早在2月25號 就主辦單位2月25號 就來邀請總統我想佛明爽應該知道可是呢 我們總統府一直到5月15號才告知說 總統國事繁忙不出席好 你繁忙不出席 所以其實整個的維安也因此而降級了"},{"start":23570.214,"end":23572.256,"text":"沒有想到5月16號早上8點主辦單位公布黃仁勳先生擔任整個的聖火就是其中的一個聖火手之一馬上在同天5月16號"},{"start":23588.692,"end":23606.351,"text":"總統府又立刻來派出蕭美琴副總統去參加市狀運但是5月17號當天就開幕所以整個維安又開始要整個升級因為國家元首副總統來總就是這個規格是不一樣的"},{"start":23607.597,"end":23632.216,"text":"所以我想請教一下為什麼我們現在總統也好總統府秘書長也好國安會秘書長也好可以如此的任性想不來就不來想來就來當作兒戲嗎我想請問一下總統當天說5月17號國政繁忙其實我有特別去查當天5月17號總統的行程總統府的公開行程"},{"start":23636.099,"end":23655.071,"text":"事實上講沒有公開行程但是當天下午有公佈說總統有接見外賓啦那是上午的時間接下來我們看不到任何怎麼樣的國政繁忙難道賴總統他有跟川普通電話我們不知道嗎"},{"start":23656.431,"end":23671.125,"text":"繁忙到像這個視壯運你也沒有任何公開行程啊你也沒有到哪裡去視察啊還是說真的有跟美國的政要川普通電話而我們不知道呢機密到我們不知道"},{"start":23671.946,"end":23700.468,"text":"所以這樣子的一個很任性的行為我真的覺得要適可而止要對某一些的活動對於立法院要給予一定的尊重另外我想請教一下因為這邊有特別來解凍特別講到媒體那這裡面還特別提到就是我們有總統府LINE的官方帳號"},{"start":23701.98,"end":23718.577,"text":"最近 副秘書長也有一個大錯字吧 應該是兩個大錯字精精業業 是吧這個 我是覺得有點拉扯啦但是 重點是 我想請教一下"},{"start":23719.673,"end":23733.206,"text":"每一次總統的週年就職週年總統的談話洞見觀瞻請問一下在今年有多少國內的媒體國內的媒體有向總統發出邀約請問一下國內的媒體其實陸陸續續都有在邀約他應該很多吧"},{"start":23741.673,"end":23756.529,"text":"有的這裡說很多因為總統的就職週年總統每一句話不管是兩岸的國際的經濟的國防等等都是很重要的"},{"start":23758.53,"end":23779.523,"text":"那可以告訴我嗎你們接受媒體的這個邀約一定有有多少家屬我講的是本國媒體家屬的部分馬上跟委員報告我想紅衛委員那外國媒體呢紅衛委員您自己以前也是媒體對外國媒體呢這個我問的都是事實這沒有什麼好好保密的嘛因為我為什麼要問這個問題我為什麼要再問這個問題因為這一次在至早到目前為止"},{"start":23787.148,"end":23814.623,"text":"昨天520嘛今天521嘛到目前為止我只看到總統接受了一家外媒日本經濟新聞一家本國媒體財訊另外還有叫最近大家提到的因為認為總統失言把台灣當作一個可交易的幫他當成公司併購的叫做敏迪選獨對不對他是一個podcast"},{"start":23816.175,"end":23839.94,"text":"然後還有嗎我有沒有遺漏的沒有遺漏怎麼只會這樣少少的媒體呢我就想說顯然應該有很多媒體會要邀訪總統好 我要講的是你們今天要讓我們解凍是因為呢宣傳非常重要沒錯 總統的宣傳很重要大外宣 大內宣都很重要但是如果有很多媒體願意來幫總統宣傳"},{"start":23842.521,"end":23865.447,"text":"如果照您所講 很多媒體都有來邀約為什麼到目前為止 我剛講說我有沒有遺漏 沒有遺漏怎麼就是只有這麼少數的外媒一家 本媒一家 然後一個podcast當然舉行一個記者會 啊 沒有了啊怎麼這樣子呢這麼好的一個大內宣大外宣機會 為什麼要這樣措施呢"},{"start":23867.512,"end":23891.037,"text":"其實針對台灣的國際形象 洪文委員您過去一直在幫忙也很感謝啦那近期賴總統的專訪等等總共會有五次那我想一任總統他在不同階段跟時期會有不同的露出那我們這一次其實我想洪文委員很謝謝你日本的年輕的世代對於台灣很好奇"},{"start":23891.617,"end":23906.58,"text":"那同時在這一次獨賣電視的流量也好反應都很正面那我想過去我們朝野一起努力那紅衛委員也很幫忙那我們以往是全球各個五大洲那這一次"},{"start":23906.96,"end":23933.475,"text":"比較focus在日本這一塊那反映成效都很好那我想接下來還有一些不斷不同的露出的情況我特別去講這一個這當然是因為今天正好五二一因為總統就職週年那你們又特別提到這個解冬案裡面把這個有關於沒宣的這一塊作為也算是你們的重點那所以我要講的就是說其實有很多的宣傳不一定要由政府花錢嘛"},{"start":23934.155,"end":23937.959,"text":"就是當然總統會比較辛苦一點 幕僚辛苦一點要幫他準備 幫他猜題 或者一般來講媒體都會把題目提供給你要幫他準備 不要讓總統失言 讓總統講話要有內容等等那當然不要有錯字 什麼兢兢業業這一類的"},{"start":23953.41,"end":23976.349,"text":"那我覺得這個就要多多去把握嘛那我覺得這一次讓我感覺就是啊怎麼怎麼就這幾家媒體啊當然你要去嘗試一些非過去的這個傳統媒體我覺得也很好但是呢如果除非啊除非我最後要問除非有媒體很多媒體都不要來邀約了我也不想邀約啊有什麼好講講你就這樣子那如果還是有媒體邀約就應該把握而不是只是想要花錢而已好不好"},{"start":23982.714,"end":24005.415,"text":"宏威委員也快速跟您做一分鐘的報告這一次新聞發布裡面因為視聽的方式開始改變了所以我們很期待有聽樂平權那我想這幾年朝野一起努力那台灣被全世界在關注我們有直播那還有一些手語也好或各國的翻譯這都放在我們這一次新聞發布中心的預算"},{"start":24006.596,"end":24014.182,"text":"副秘書長 我真的覺得你也很辛苦啊因為我知道你今天一直就是要拜訪我們在野的黨團這個精神可嘉賴總統要給你加分但是呢 我覺得你要去講什麼過兩個禮拜啊 大家就要餓肚子我覺得大可不必啦"},{"start":24025.612,"end":24040.082,"text":"不用太誇張啦 好不好因為基本上 你看我們這個召委很主動的來排解凍案早上休息 但是下午立刻排解凍案都非常大家一起來配合 好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝宏偉委員 謝謝好 謝謝 那下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":24065.068,"end":24071.972,"text":"來 謝謝主席 遵照主席的命令那是你講的我要簡單問一下 兩位副秘書長兩位副秘書長好我剛才看吳宗憲招委這樣 愛愛求 堅固卑卑我們都 求都叫不來你覺得你很不民主 你也不民主我們那四萬萬次有人會想漏氣你當作你叫不來 人家有給你簽名"},{"start":24093.578,"end":24099.641,"text":"奇怪的喔,他都在叫,不是在叫什麼總統府,總統府潘秘書長有給你請假嘛,對不對,官會沒來嘛,有請假嗎?人家也有給你請假,還算不錯的,我真的羨慕死你了,我跟你講,昨晚來,連來都不來,連給我請個假,打個電話都沒有"},{"start":24111.787,"end":24127.793,"text":"不要哀啦 我們兩個苦難兄弟昨天是520 總統的就職一週年這一年看起來也是風風雨雨那我要就教兩位了就是說其實我大家都看到說草野是"},{"start":24129.073,"end":24151.361,"text":"攻防激烈 當然也是對立啦 非常的嚴重啦但是呢 這影響到的就是一些法案的一個通過 還有預算的一個凍結啦那大選過後 到現在第一當的行政團隊算是走得也蠻辛苦啦 蠻辛苦那我先詢問一下 我們複密這一次來 你有什麼樣的感想 你覺得整個政體怎麼樣還可以讓整個政府更精進的地方"},{"start":24158.308,"end":24182.762,"text":"我想這個部分還是要多聽委員專業的委員的想法跟意見但是我覺得在這一年的時間以來我認為國際社會越來越喜歡台灣也更重視台灣那在此時此刻我認為朝野的團結非常的重要一起讓在變動的國際環境當中走一個更穩定更安定而且更前瞻的路謝謝委員的垂詢"},{"start":24184.119,"end":24203.663,"text":"你這個回答的定義說對外宣示而已,我是在說你看到應該檢討的地方不是說什麼更團結,本來每一個國家裡面要更團結我說你都就你的觀察,你覺得我們政府哪些地方該精進你現在是叫在野黨要精進,我是說我們自己政務要怎麼精進我相信這也是要聽委員的,委員有什麼想法,我記錄起來,我繼續核實"},{"start":24211.467,"end":24236.593,"text":"這下不錯 有進步了 感謝 感謝你副院長 你的看法是怎樣看法跟志偉 副院看法一樣厲害啦 你們兩個今天來要討錢而已啦但也很好 也很好那昨天啦 我看大家也都很清楚啦立法院就通過這個公投案 就核三這個部分我不曉得兩位喔 有沒有就這個議題裡面"},{"start":24239.928,"end":24258.619,"text":"總統府裡面有沒有任何的一個討論我看總統府也去發表了一些看法對於整個河山到底要不要去做研議提到的是說 河安無虞 河廢料有解 社會上有共識那這當然是一個基本前提 我要問的就是說你們對這個 總統府你們有去討論到嗎還是國安會會不會去討論到這個議題這涉及到國安 涉及到國安 我為什麼這樣講"},{"start":24267.625,"end":24289.742,"text":"你像譬如說2011年3月11日福島核災發生的時候你可不可以知道我們那時候在看的時候全世界差不多都對日本都在核實全部都限制他們的一個進口日本人也要叫哪五個縣市你們還記得吧你們有人知道嗎"},{"start":24294.606,"end":24306.974,"text":"我問你這是有關你們嗎?福島當然是首當其衝,它的農產、水產甚至畜牧,這全部都被全世界給它做一個抵制"},{"start":24308.797,"end":24332.264,"text":"赤城在旁邊栗木還有群馬還有一個最遠的叫千葉縣有到水千葉縣如果到福島差不多要三百公里兩三百公里我特別這樣講如果是你河山的話那用311福島這樣的一個河災事變的話如果要三百公里到台灣大陸你知道嗎差不多到大陸你知道嗎"},{"start":24337.541,"end":24353.383,"text":"國安咧 開什麼玩笑 我這不是亂問的 想就差不多九秒了九秒就代表什麼意思 你知道 就是說河山萬一有任何的一個事情發生的話萬一啊 大家都沒希望會發生啊 那差不多啊"},{"start":24354.437,"end":24356.258,"text":"差不多要用輔導來看 農產、水產、畜產全部都不能處理所以這個問題就是非常非常嚴重所以我本期昨天一直在講說過去40年國民黨在我們國家公園旁邊放了兩顆反應爐"},{"start":24378.137,"end":24398.091,"text":"那四十年我們以為屏東這個就可以解除這樣的一個災難為這個國家貢獻那麼久了沒有想到又來一個白色的民眾黨又提了一個案要繼續再言喻所以我昨天才會下一個註解藍白真的在我們台灣對我們屏東來講真的不是什麼好東西重點是說"},{"start":24399.392,"end":24412.649,"text":"那萬一啊 萬一啊 這如果真的到時候過後產生的衝擊會那麼大總統府對這方面你們到底有沒有去做任何的一個推 沙盤的一個推演你們兩個有聽到嗎 有就說有 說沒有也沒關係啊"},{"start":24420.345,"end":24447.89,"text":"委任理的問責跟質詢我們都很關心齁那但是這個目前這一塊我本身我自己個人沒有這個業務的執掌所以我可能要很謹慎如果可以允許我一點時間讓我去問好不好拜託 其實這也不用問啦你如果做到日本啦 這個是一個良心的問題啦會通過這個就是說 別人的孩子死不了啦 別人的孩子死不了就是說這個台北的觀點跟南部的觀點會完全不一樣啦"},{"start":24448.888,"end":24466.85,"text":"你像如果說合一為什麼他不弄合一合二合一合二的話按照整個任何的核電廠你只要哪發生核災20公里全部都要全部人都要遣照那30公里的都要去避難"},{"start":24468.22,"end":24487.697,"text":"核災一發生 常常會因為地形 常常會因為整個風向還有你下雨 影響會很大日本到現在還哇哇叫 日本現在還認為我們是對他貿易歧視那五個縣市 我們現在還要他安全證明還有他整個輻射的一個檢測 為了國人的安全"},{"start":24489.474,"end":24517.289,"text":"2022年 我們政府開放之後 整個國民黨都叫民進黨的政府現在他自己說核酸要研議 當然研議不代表核酸會怎麼樣但是重點就是說 一個負責任的政府你那個核廢料沒有能力去處理的話你憑什麼要跟人家說 你要繼續用這個核電廠任何一個縣市 只要有垃圾廠的 大家都帶頭抗爭"},{"start":24519.264,"end":24523.031,"text":"這合作的 副秘書長 你如果在做議員 或是在做理負業生白頭如果還要再衝一個 垃圾也不要衝下去"},{"start":24526.496,"end":24543.326,"text":"一直用帶頭抗爭的啊帶頭抗爭的人說 吼 這不是叫做正義怎麼可以荼毒我們這裡的一個環境都這樣說 台東也一樣台東的垃圾也不要藏 藏了一堆我就這樣叫我們的環境部長去說 啊啦 我們把它倒下去垃圾我們給它分 整個都在裡面 也不是煩惱把它燒燒的 把它美化 嘿 他們痛到你知道嗎結果連垃圾他們都沒有了"},{"start":24553.662,"end":24577.272,"text":"說我們屏東 說放合會 說沒關係這個我就想都想不通啦但我今天是語重心長啦 涉及到國家的重大政策我也希望說兩位 兩位對這個可以啊我本來想說你會進一步來提供一點想法啦沒有想到這個部分你們是沒有涉及但是啊 我覺得你們剛剛有一點回答不太好的地方視狀運的部分 人家說總統該不會來"},{"start":24581.704,"end":24585.492,"text":"你覺得在社會說全世界幾個國家在這麼久以來總統去出席的你覺得有這樣的記錄別的國家"},{"start":24596.795,"end":24615.951,"text":"第一件事情我想快速回覆委員關於核廢的部分我一定把你的意見帶回去然後我會用最快的時間趕快回覆你那關於市壯域的部分委員其實這一次不管是中央還是地方其實中央挹注的預算來到三到四成以上"},{"start":24616.591,"end":24641.756,"text":"那至於總統的出席 過往的形式不見得是在開幕式我們大概 我有看過一些資料有些國家的總統也會跟著一起去跑步 運動等等的所以它形式很多元 你要看過嗎你真的要看過別的國家的總統去出席過嗎開幕式我這個真的是資料上面沒有特別顯示我可能還要再研究一下下但是他們的形式很不同啊 那我看一看喔"},{"start":24642.976,"end":24658.582,"text":"實在是 大家都應該這樣說啦 大家期待總統來嘛 來鬥老鹹嘛 總統老時間來好事情嘛 啊如果沒來 這就不一定要強制總統去啊 啊也副總統去啊我怎麼知道你這條街碎嘎 街碎嘎 這條街碎嘎 這樣裡裡魯魯 街街你都怕副總統有去 副總統有去 還有地主對啦 這你自己都要加強的所在 好 謝謝感謝 謝謝好 謝謝 那下一位我們請審發會委員 審發會委員 審發"},{"start":24670.714,"end":24674.035,"text":"好 那在下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言首先先請何秘書長 何富密"},{"start":24695.049,"end":24723.151,"text":"黃委員您好是何步密您好這個因為今天早上我們考慮到就是國安會秘書長還有總統府秘書長沒有來所以我們早上就是先會議休息然後呢您在中間的時候是不是有接受媒體訪問講說我們如果今天總統府的預算案不解凍的話阿兵哥再兩星期就沒飯吃是嗎是的是您不覺得您這樣子說這個話"},{"start":24726.017,"end":24729.522,"text":"這個混淆是非啊我們今天要解凍的是什麼案子業務費裡面是跟阿兵哥的伙食費相同嗎我們是當時是凍結的是阿兵哥的伙食費嗎"},{"start":24739.875,"end":24743.92,"text":"他是在我們的業務費裡面的其中一項一項什麼我快速跟是廚師費嘛在聘廚師的費用你們自己報告裡面顯示聘廚師的費用對不對他接下來的確會影響到他們的三餐的膳食"},{"start":24760.118,"end":24772.11,"text":"今天我們要解凍的是什麼費用是廚師的費用嘛 聘廚師的費用你們自己報告書上面寫得很清楚啊每個月差不多八萬多塊錢 聘廚師的費用這個跟伙食費不一樣啊您說話有沒有邏輯太跳躍了"},{"start":24780.902,"end":24789.897,"text":"我們伙食費沒有刪 沒有凍結就算是今天沒有廚師去煮飯給阿兵哥吃還是可以對外買水餃 買便當 買麥當勞吧"},{"start":24795.564,"end":24810.638,"text":"不會讓阿B哥餓到肚子嘛對不對我們真的很擔心啦就是第一個包含水電費沒了然後他們的三餐全部其實我真的很不會煮飯我最會煮的就是維大利炸醬麵而已"},{"start":24812.239,"end":24832.708,"text":"那廚師也好他們要選材洗材然後還要清潔而且因為總統府跟其他的單位比較不一樣他負責國家中樞這些元首甚至像各個重要的官員是 何富密您說的我都了解我也絕對是認為說我們辛苦的憲兵弟兄們不可以讓他們餓肚子不可以讓他們吃不好這完全都同意"},{"start":24840.531,"end":24858.04,"text":"那今天的解凍說實在話也沒有什麼太大的困難因為當時本來就認為說這部分請你們要做專案報告可是我今天很不滿的是你怎麼可以對外放話說我們如果今天這個廚師這個費用不解凍阿斌哥就會餓肚子兩星期"},{"start":24859.317,"end":24864.962,"text":"再兩星期阿兵哥就會餓肚子啊這是錯誤的這是一個造謠跟委員報告不僅僅阿兵哥會餓到肚子我們連一些僱員都會被解僱掉大概二十幾個人所以委員如果說我講話這跟業務費的解凍這是兩回事我現在只是講說你接受媒體採訪的時候因為你又這麼有媒體經驗你怎麼會不知道說這句話的影響力"},{"start":24887.361,"end":24903.311,"text":"所以我現在只是要糾正這只是我們今天要解凍 也許只是一個聘廚室的費用但是這跟阿兵哥的伙食費沒有關係請你不要在那邊造謠說又是我們藍白立委喔這是害阿兵哥又沒飯吃 又讓他們餓肚子"},{"start":24905.151,"end":24908.332,"text":"真的讓他們餓肚子的是你們啦如果說這個沒有拚到廚師或是廚師辭職如果廚師辭職的話是不是阿兵哥就會餓肚子呢不會嘛你們還是會想辦法買外賣啊我同意溫委員的說法那但是很抱歉我來質詢台備詢之前我五六日我有問一下我們第一線的這些兄弟姊妹士官兵我說你們誰會煮飯"},{"start":24931.55,"end":24942.14,"text":"他們都說現在什麼時代一定要會煮飯嗎就是阿兵哥的伙食是一定要要自己有廚師去煮飯嗎對不對好啦這個何鳳敏我不要再跟你討論這個細節齁那麼我只是要希望你能夠為這個事情"},{"start":24948.586,"end":24954.589,"text":"至少要說明白不是砍的是伙食費而是廚師費對不對我希望待會的這個媒體也可以做更正報導就澄清啦事實澄清的報導但是他們真的說他們又要站哨然後又要曬太陽他們下"},{"start":24966.494,"end":24975.78,"text":"哪一個軍人弟兄不是這樣,所以我們才要調高軍人待遇啊,你們又反對民進黨的委員又反對,反對給軍人待遇調整"},{"start":24982.776,"end":25001.641,"text":"所以民進黨很多的邏輯是非常奇怪的接下來我要問的就是說有關於你們講說因為業務被刪所以可能會影響到總統府的媒體新聞的宣傳等等我在這裡我想請問這次總統他接受了幾個媒體的採訪"},{"start":25004.585,"end":25015.662,"text":"是總統府有沒有付這個受訪的費用不管是閩迪選讀日本經濟新聞還有這個部分就我所知沒有"},{"start":25016.958,"end":25022.222,"text":"這是沒有?確定沒有?確定沒有好,我們之後下一年度看的時候,看到你們的經費報,這其實是有這個像過去蔡英文總統大選舉的時候我還記得是接受博恩夜夜秀的訪問本來以為說博恩夜夜秀是單純去邀訪等到事後才發現,這也是付費的啊所以你們確定嗎?這三個節目是沒有付任何的費用給媒體"},{"start":25046.338,"end":25056.717,"text":"那如果是這樣的話那就代表說其實媒體對於總統府的這個各項的業務啊採訪這些都是很有興趣那你們其實真的可以節省這筆費用啊"},{"start":25057.662,"end":25080.675,"text":"你們媒體新聞宣傳費可以節省起來反正這麼多的媒體都對總統府很有興趣對總統的八眼也很有興趣以後應該要多邀他們來做免費報導我覺得這一方面也是節省功效我跟委員報告一下其實帶我長大的我自己是單親家庭啦帶我長大的是一個身心障礙的哥哥我自己的"},{"start":25082.316,"end":25105.846,"text":"這個表格那我想台灣為什麼會讓全世界尊重我們因為我們在總統在說話的時候不管是聽障的朋友還是如何我們都有手語的翻譯我們不要漏了不要漏了任何一個人那此外其實台灣受到全世界的尊重跟喜愛我們有多國的翻譯都在這一筆的預算裡面"},{"start":25106.266,"end":25118.154,"text":"所以另外一個部分 何富密您講的我知道但是我覺得您又岔題了這也是我很佩服您的地方我剛剛其實問就是說是總統接受媒體訪問總統府有沒有付錢沒有 那沒有就非常好那就代表說總統的發言還有總統府的公關做得很好媒體都願意來免費報導那這樣我也鼓勵你們未來可以朝這個方向去做可是我們的直播怎麼辦呢有關於這個緊急危難的部分我們的翻譯怎麼辦"},{"start":25136.406,"end":25145.854,"text":"你們可以把你們要去做媒體更換的費用我們也不可能長期的找志工來這樣子真的會口語的翻譯好那接下來我要這個這個部分的費用解凍我們待會會再談接下來我還會再講就是說有關於緊急為難未問津的部分看起來你們是如果這個費用沒有解凍國務教費裡面這個我們現在是動多少是"},{"start":25166.451,"end":25179.855,"text":"動了一千萬如果沒有動的話總統是連緊急危難的補助金慰問金都發不出來是嗎是的我跟委員報告一下請問一下總統現在一個月領多少薪水最近的這個車禍的事件"},{"start":25182.784,"end":25194.259,"text":"總統其實到現場他也不接受媒體的訪問所以總統心有餘而力不足因為他沒有那個錢可以先支出緊急危難的慰問金是嗎"},{"start":25197.463,"end":25212.686,"text":"就我所知他有時候會自己掏腰包啦至少我現在沒有聽到總統有自己掏腰包付支付緊急危難慰問金的情況我們只有看到中央保護不斷地講我們如果說扣了國務機要費那總統就沒有辦法用我們的公帑去支付緊急危難的慰問金"},{"start":25221.408,"end":25228.873,"text":"其實他不僅僅緊急為難 包含一些軍警我想請教一下總統每個月現在支領是多少薪水100萬嗎70萬要精準喔 要精準喔來 請回應"},{"start":25240.209,"end":25251.72,"text":"因為我們今年有調薪3%公教人員有調薪3%那總統副總統的薪水我們依照內政部配合公教人員調薪3%他答覆給我們的是54萬6970台加特資費呢"},{"start":25255.509,"end":25270.493,"text":"沒有特製費啊做的就是國際藥費嘛對就是一個月五六十萬嘛還加年終獎金等等我們這樣講好了表達一個心意表達一個慰問金就算是這個國際藥費暫時凍結總統連這點小錢都不願意出嗎他連這樣的一個慰問的這個慰問的這個費用請問委員我可以回答嗎對他可以先暫待啊"},{"start":25281.456,"end":25299.951,"text":"我覺得今天講的好像是總統只要是沒有這筆錢他連一般的社會的慰問啊緊急危難啊這些都沒有辦法做我覺得這是總統的心意就算是我們現在我們立法委員我們沒有編任何的什麼緊急危難的這個費用我遇到了"},{"start":25300.836,"end":25313.213,"text":"有需要帮忙的人需要去救助的我自己还是会用我的薪水去会花自己的钱去救助"},{"start":25314.315,"end":25342.34,"text":"所以我認為說總統府不要把這些事情拿來講說因為這個錢如果不解凍的話會影響到委員可以給我30秒我30秒快速回應其實每一年總統府都會跟我們的弱勢團體採購水果或者手工皂手工餅乾這些讓這些社福團體他們能夠被看到而且有時候募款很辛苦的時候他們可以去做到第二件事情跟委員報告"},{"start":25343.76,"end":25357.777,"text":"你可以上網自己搜尋其實賴總統以前真的都把他的薪水有捐給很多不同的社福團體但是他為善不欲人知所以並沒有特別的去做PR或者是做這些公關的部分"},{"start":25369.055,"end":25392.808,"text":"今天是副秘書長來我想您今天大概從早到現在大概也受到了很多的炮火其實大家不是對您不滿大家主要是對吳釗燮秘書長不滿真的是藐視國會明明按照我們現在的組織法國安會就是有要到立法院來備詢而且接受立法院的監督可是你們可以這麼多次都不來坦白說看起來"},{"start":25394.029,"end":25405.268,"text":"吳釗信秘書長也不太在乎國安會的這個預算到底要不要解凍那因為剛剛涉及到一個事情所以我在這裡我要講就是剛剛說政務人員待遇為什麼我們只凍十萬元"},{"start":25406.618,"end":25417.609,"text":"我要講的是當時的提案是因為我們有發現國安會在政務人員待遇今年的編列費用比去年高達多出15.85%這是超出過去的這個幅度"},{"start":25424.315,"end":25428.857,"text":"而且依照公務人員的加薪每年加3%3%也加不到15.85%所以我們提出來這個問題請你們做專案報告後來這個本來是凍結100萬後來談談說好吧現在這樣的話只凍了10萬元"},{"start":25439.762,"end":25460.918,"text":"是這樣的緣由不是王一川委員說的他那時候還沒有進來所以我就說委員要用功啦要去質詢的時候也要先看看人家之前的提案是什麼不要在那邊亂造謠那接下來還有一個部分就是有關於國安會這邊講的說要我們對於這個諮詢研究業務費用希望國安會要提出專案報告你們現在列的這是什麼這是叫專案報告兩頁叫專案報告"},{"start":25468.772,"end":25477.82,"text":"許副秘書長您的報告的概念跟我們做報告的概念是完全不一樣這加起來可能都還不到兩千字這就叫做報告報委員這個內容主要是"},{"start":25484.312,"end":25488.974,"text":"因為當時黃國昌委員問的是我們那個經費是怎麼使用那我們就是把用人別國別還有旅行的次數把它報告出來所以你們去了哪些國家做了什麼樣研究做了什麼調查難道我們沒有權利知道嗎難道人民不應該知道說到底關會每年編了這麼多的錢是用到哪裡了"},{"start":25507.981,"end":25532.72,"text":"我們怎麼知道說你們是不是到日本去看黑熊不是到什麼冰島去看極光我們不可能去冰島看極光啦所以你要告訴我你們要去哪個國家會被我們懷疑我們這裡面都有專案每個專案去哪些但是委員我跟您說去哪些國家我們沒辦法講這是因為我們國安人員出去通常是不露出的"},{"start":25533.16,"end":25536.341,"text":"這是基於雙方的一個 非常牢固所以他去哪裡跟什麼人接手你沒辦法講我們立法院也可以開秘密會議我們可以不需要公開讓所有的媒體讓所有的民眾看這個直播但是我們立法院可以召開秘密會議你們也可以提密件報告在國防外交委員會都有這麼做"},{"start":25558.311,"end":25578.225,"text":"所以你們沒有道理說不讓我們立法委員知道你們今天到底去哪裡開會否則我們很合理的懷疑為什麼不敢講對不對連監察院都可以說他們編列外國參旅費是到日本去看黑熊那國安會議到底你們做了些什麼"},{"start":25579.546,"end":25591.035,"text":"總是可以跟我們個別委員或是我們就裝開一個小的群組讓我們大概知道我們也不需要知道具體名下名所以這個叫專案報告這是一個不合格的專案報告啊所以我們只能這樣寫"},{"start":25596.246,"end":25619.168,"text":"我寫的沒有不跟您講請教主席如果說今天我們認為這個專案報告裡面的內容應該要更清楚那麼國安會認為說這可能社交親密我們是不是可以開一個秘密會議呢就是我們純粹委員這邊然後這樣才能夠知道他們的專案報告內容什麼否則的話我們今天怎麼可能會讓你們這個案子過"},{"start":25621.872,"end":25624.696,"text":"就預算的部分他這裡我們不是講說就他的研究諮詢業務當時的研究諮詢業務說三個月內提出專案報告並經同意嗎"},{"start":25637.11,"end":25661.374,"text":"有沒有這個可能性因為我問了一下我們本委員會以前從來沒有過這樣的前例啦是沒有這個前例但是不代表說不可以開嘛在我們法規上面有禁止說司法法治委員會不可以開命令會議嗎對否則我覺得這未來就是一個漏洞啊對不對國安會每年的預算送給我們審查結果我們竟然沒有辦法知道說他們到底用到哪裡去了只有一個總統頭的一個經費"},{"start":25664.395,"end":25674.89,"text":"幾千萬上億我有分區域有分次數這我都有報告那我怎麼知道你寫的是對還是不對我們都有經過會計和審核我們不可能撒謊啊"},{"start":25677.14,"end":25702.521,"text":"現在連光雲撒謊這個大法官都認為沒有處罰啦所以我根本不知道你們到底有沒有撒謊啦我們經過會計程序怎麼可能撒謊呢我想我們立法院重要的職責基本上就是監督警戒機關我們也很希望了解到底業務機關做了什麼事情這個可以作為你們日後要增加預算"},{"start":25703.061,"end":25717.12,"text":"或是在兵力預算的時候就我們大家就比較清楚否則的話現在以你們這樣子的一個報告方式我們根本不知道你們到底去開了什麼會議做了什麼考察然後只是說依照地區然後什麼來區分"},{"start":25719.022,"end":25746.713,"text":"任何一個機關的報告都不可能這樣子寫報告委員我們不是去考察我們都是去開會沒有考察這種東西是 所以去開會會議總要有個名稱吧有名稱但是沒辦法講報告委員沒辦法在這裡講我是跟您說實話所以我才說這可能可以涉及到密會或是你們有密件的方式來提供給我們知道送密件的方式是其他委員會也都有過的不是說沒有的"},{"start":25747.953,"end":25761.001,"text":"對 我們如果看了密件 未來我們洩漏機密這個是要負責任的 負刑責的每個委員都很清楚我們的法律責任是什麼可是你們不能因此而規避掉你們的責任我們沒有規避 報告委員我們沒有規避"},{"start":25762.148,"end":25767.29,"text":"我可以把你們的報告我直接貼臉書然後請社會大眾來公平看看我們是不是同意國安會這樣的專案報告可以讓他解凍預算因為我今天耽誤太多時間雖然我還準備了很多題目不過就是謝謝昭緯給我這樣的時間"},{"start":25784.678,"end":25793.282,"text":"秘會的部分 因為以前沒有前例啦 那今天會後的話我們會研究一下那當然法規沒有禁止 這個是我要在這邊先跟各位報告"},{"start":25796.431,"end":25821.501,"text":"那那個剛剛就是有關翁委員所提到的就是火石費的部分因為剛剛我們那個國防外交委員會的委員有特別請我在這邊跟大家說明一下就是因為國軍的官兵薪資裡面是由官兵向那個單位繳納納入火石團採買所以總統府的預算如果被凍結憲兵"},{"start":25823.962,"end":25848.544,"text":"就是211營它的伙食它是無關的所以說這是剛剛那個國防委員會的委員給我們的就是說今天的業務費如果沒有解凍的話其實跟官兵沒有錢吃飯是兩回事這是剛剛國防委員會那當然這部分再請大家了解一下好 謝謝那我們下一位請陳培宇委員發言"},{"start":25863.444,"end":25877.436,"text":"好 謝謝主席喔 語重心長的嘆息因為剛剛聽到了非常多不實的訊息我想要逐一來跟國安會還有和複密這邊澄清 謝謝所以要請兩位複密署長好"},{"start":25884.693,"end":25907.45,"text":"兩位辛苦了我想我們今天之所以還要在這邊今天已經五月底了我們還要在這邊認真來討論預算解凍案事出必有因那我想這個因就是來自於在去年二輪預算提出來的時候藍白共同提出三四千案我們認為極度不合理的預算甚至沒有專業考慮沒有專業的討論"},{"start":25909.932,"end":25925.728,"text":"通常在本委我們要提出預算的時候一定是基於我們在這整個委員會對相關機關部會業務的理解我們提出一個立法委員該行的職權我們進行監督進行討論所以我們透過預算這是一個手段跟方法對嗎兩位"},{"start":25927.548,"end":25942.556,"text":"那過去像這樣子的監督機制有遇到像今年這麼大的困難嗎可不可以分享一下那也許國安會這邊比較資深你要不要分享一下今年算不算是一種史無前例的荒謬的亂象"},{"start":25944.588,"end":25960.438,"text":"今年相對於過去若干年是比較困難比較困難好 您講得非常保守我直接說是荒謬跟亂象我過去在教育文化委員會我們每一個人基於自己的專業跟理解我們在第一輪負責任的提出我們的預算案"},{"start":25961.118,"end":25976.835,"text":"然後我們認真的討論最後藍白還有民進黨會做出默契也就是朝野對於相關預算跟業務的推廣是有一定的默契到了二輪提案的時候通常各個委員辦公室都是因為可能時間來不及啦或者是可能之前沒有想到大家再補題這是過往的案例那當然我們來立法院的資歷比較淺才來兩年"},{"start":25984.162,"end":26004.023,"text":"但是這兩年或者是我們參考過去非常多優秀專業的立法會的提案我們發現比較是這個狀況所以我才說雖然我才來兩年但是我認為目前在今年也就是他們去年藍白提出來荒謬二輪的超過三四千案的預算提案是荒謬的這是我個人的見解"},{"start":26005.184,"end":26027.779,"text":"剛剛還有非常多委員也問了我覺得很荒謬的問題第一個他請問何富密說我們的賴總統到三峽的現場去勘栽的時候沒有接受訪問然後第一時間表達關心我們很謝謝賴總統做出這個動作但是他剛剛一直問說為什麼總統沒有捐款總統的薪水有多少然後總統為什麼沒有捐款"},{"start":26029.256,"end":26057.923,"text":"我不知道這樣的問題意義何在喔那如果真的要認真追究捐款這件事情呢我想我就先問馬英九總統任內當時他標榜要達到633他還說如果沒有達到633他要捐出薪水的一半但事後他自己承認並沒有捐出來那是不是我們也可以問這個事情那當然這個事過境遷也不關何複密您的事情如果真的要追究賴清德總統有沒有捐款呢網路上有人幫忙整理我今天就來分享一兩個"},{"start":26059.687,"end":26077.353,"text":"以我以關心兒少的角度來看2018年2月9號台南家福中心頒助獎學金賴清的總統當時捐助了獎學金超過500萬其中有100萬是選舉補助款2018年3月12號學甲伯利恆藻寮教育中心落成賴清的總統捐了500萬也是來自選舉補助款"},{"start":26081.035,"end":26101.465,"text":"2021年4月5號捐助台鐵事故傷亡者當時蔡英文總統賴清德副總統蘇貞昌院長捐一個月所得2021年10月15號寄助陳忠誠災戶蔡英文總統賴清德副總統陳其邁等捐出一個月的薪水所得這只是我剛剛舉的其中一些些例子"},{"start":26102.225,"end":26110.833,"text":"我並不是要請何鳳敏把這個訊息帶回去請總統再捐款我想在委員在質詢台上必須要負責任對自己的言論負責而我認為剛剛有非常多在野黨的委員一再的造謠抹黑那導致於我們必須要浪費我們自己的質詢時間但我認為正確資訊傳達是非常非常重要的"},{"start":26124.466,"end":26134.962,"text":"每一個人要不要捐款是出自於自己的決定自己的選擇但在公開的質詢台上造謠賴清德總統沒有捐款這件事情我認為大可不必喔"},{"start":26135.811,"end":26162.506,"text":"好那我們來看一下如果要來看相關預算我認為我們不如實質的來看你們在這麼困難的預算執行情況下還是有非常多事情需要你們在業務推廣上不斷前進不是嗎你們並沒有因為如此就不去上班然後或者是坐在那邊什麼事都沒做不是嗎對那我們來看一下喔而且還有很多國人關心的問題我想我要先謝謝你們一再的努力喔"},{"start":26163.942,"end":26175.055,"text":"而且我要再次強調今天這一切的亂象預算的亂象今天之所以還要站在這邊真的是因為莫名其妙荒謬的二輪預算提案不問專業好第一個"},{"start":26178.697,"end":26194.216,"text":"你看每次發生事情你們就會被叫來罵對不對像我今天沒有要罵你們啦我要跟你們討論喔終極人士在中小學門口直播這件事情我們非常謝謝警政署在第一時間他們去調查相關個案那他給了我一個說法說"},{"start":26195.678,"end":26223.661,"text":"違反個資法違反妨害秘密罪還有違反兒少權法非常謝謝警政署的同仁在預算也有困難的情況下依然努力工作那我想要請問國安會就國安的角度我們可不可以告訴國人在相關的疑慮情況下我們應該要注意什麼樣的事情因為確實在社群裡面不管是家長不管是老師其實很多大人都非常的擔心那這個在"},{"start":26224.682,"end":26236.171,"text":"警政署這段問題已經解決了但是如果我們回到我們去看中國的很多社群你按相關關鍵字滿滿的影片我們真的還是很擔心我想要請國安會給我們一些說明好不好"},{"start":26237.334,"end":26258.497,"text":"報告委員 我想這樣的事情我們當然是非常關切我想除了因為警政單位他們主要是接受報案我覺得我們國人自己要提高警覺包括家長跟學校方面如果看到甚至一般的民眾我有朋友今天就去檢舉"},{"start":26259.878,"end":26274.686,"text":"她昨天就在學校門口看到可疑的人所以是負面女的朋友真的有看到是 他們還坐在學校附近的人行道上面也就是說這個事情並沒有停止 對嗎只是可能沒有在新聞流量上甚至今天可能都還在進行好"},{"start":26275.726,"end":26304.928,"text":"你覺得可以檢舉 我們可以向派出所先檢舉是 是我的朋友檢舉以後 那我們國安會這邊那個警察都非常負責的問得很詳細 是所以我相信我們警政單位已經非常嚴肅的面對這件事情好 那接下來就國安的角度我們還要注意什麼事情我想我們國安局以及其他的那個相關國安的單位他們會彼此交換訊息然後深入的調查這群人的背景"},{"start":26306.513,"end":26324.508,"text":"我想背景的調查當然很重要那另外一個新聞我們來看一下中國人橡皮艇登台事件頻繁國安破口如何解目前為止到底他是居住在台灣的中國人還是他真的是駕著這個橡皮艇成功登台的目前都還是一個問號但是確實我們還是擔心相關的國安破口"},{"start":26329.332,"end":26349.228,"text":"那甚至我們也擔心這個模式在金門跟馬祖在近期在台灣的數量也越來越多有沒有可能是認知作戰還有所謂的揮帶襲擾那在金門跟馬祖因為過往金門跟馬祖相對於中國或者是他們的立法委員對於中國是相對友善的可能對於相關的認知作戰或所謂的揮帶襲擾"},{"start":26351.109,"end":26363.177,"text":"他們不見得跟我們有一樣程度的認知但我認為這件事情都還是值得討論可是回到台灣本島我們來看這件事情國安單位可不可以給我們一些建議或者是你們後續將會如何處理相關的事情"},{"start":26364.306,"end":26387.045,"text":"是 謝謝委員 這個問題的話分兩個部分首先不論是本島還是外島我們國安單位都認為我們都把它看作是灰色洗腦的一部分這個已經非常確定那當然海巡署跟海委會也表示我們的這個偵測系統可能是有些不足"},{"start":26387.685,"end":26398.138,"text":"那我知道海委會已經向行政院提出海空一體295億的一個預算裡面有強化各方面次世代雷達紅外線熱像儀環島監視系統等等"},{"start":26403.684,"end":26417.192,"text":"這個強調強化我們ISR系統的這個各種各樣的設備但是可能就需要一點時間來建構但是我們已經充分認識到我們要強化我們的海岸巡防的系統"},{"start":26418.432,"end":26439.746,"text":"這個部分謝謝您的回覆我想後續國人的關心國人的焦慮或者是立法院這邊監督都會持續非常非常重要雖然你們在預算很困難的情況下最後我想跟你分享一個是從我們辦公室收集到的另外一個我們認為有高度國安疑慮的個案但我們很擔心它日後會成為通案來往下"},{"start":26441.047,"end":26465.716,"text":"在2022年當時呢直蘭高雄鋼鐵人發現有港資那當時陸委會做了非常積極的處理因為我們認為有國安疑慮那這個部分當然要給2022年的陸委會高度的肯定但是我想要跟兩位分享目前中國在全世界對於運動的滲透其實最簡單的第一步就是開始買球隊來下一張開始買球隊例如說海外足球隊"},{"start":26469.838,"end":26485.943,"text":"非常有名的英超、西甲、普甲、易甲都有甚至在NBA裡面也已經買球隊了買球隊之後可以做非常非常多的事情我今天時間有限不再贅述下一張但是回到台灣我們收到了一個陳情在2024年我們辦公室已經積極處理了"},{"start":26488.504,"end":26514.721,"text":"也就是台中的國立台灣體育運動大學有一個學校的球隊他們可以參加台灣以及足球聯賽他們把這個參賽資格轉讓給一間公司叫峰會體育有限公司看起來這個公司如果你去經濟部網站上查看不太出來什麼問題但是往下看我們跟教育部當然已經討論過教育部相關業務也在進行當中下一張那我們來看一下"},{"start":26518.53,"end":26536.44,"text":"目前國外的俱樂部或者是參賽權利的收購或是轉讓在民間其實是所謂的商業行為可是中華足協足球聯賽是FIFA它是亞足聯系統賽事重點在後面這一句話這些球隊它可以代表台灣參加國際賽"},{"start":26538.661,"end":26551.813,"text":"可是如果這些球隊背後的經營主或者是擁有這個球隊的老闆甚至這個球隊他就只是學校的球隊的參賽權他竟然背後是中資跟港資這有沒有國安疑慮"},{"start":26553.561,"end":26567.958,"text":"好 我們往下看 再下一張好 再下一張我要說的是其實不是只有足球 包含排球在台灣由單項協會所主辦的企業聯賽也都可以代表台灣參加國際組織的體育賽事代表台灣出隊"},{"start":26573.684,"end":26588.301,"text":"所以我想要請教一下就國安的角度來說當然後續這家公司我們再去追查發現所謂峰會體育有限公司它的負責人是另外一家公司的董事跟發言人而這一家公司背後就是中資跟港資"},{"start":26589.182,"end":26614.529,"text":"所以如果我們連連看會發現他確實有所謂的國安疑慮而這個球隊目前的參賽權已經賣出去了當然教育部那邊或者是監察院這邊他們都有相關調查在進行但是我要把相關這個個案跟國安會討論如果未來在台灣也開始發生中國在海外買球隊的狀況他開始進到台灣來做這個操作你們怎麼看"},{"start":26616.823,"end":26642.246,"text":"報告委員這件事情當然是很嚴重尤其是代表我們國家去參加國際比賽那如果背後有中資港資我想當然是對我們國家利益是不好所以這件事情我想我們會帶回去跟行政院包括教育部還有行政院這邊一起來協調開會以及國安局我們來研究一下應該怎麼樣去防堵這樣的事情發生"},{"start":26642.486,"end":26664.068,"text":"好我也跟您說他除了代表台灣出賽之外他其實有另外一個疑慮假設我背後是中資港資我在台灣甕有一個球隊我有了這個球隊的名義我可能就可以去投標或是承包某些場地的經營權我舉一個例子剛剛這個學校是在台中而台中在明後年就會落成一個足球園區"},{"start":26665.109,"end":26684.462,"text":"而這個足球園區如果真的被這個球隊拿去做經營做場地的經營跟空間我們很難想像背後中資跟港資會如何透過這個身份做出一些滲透跟我們認為灰色襲擾的部分所以我才要把這個看起來是個案但很有可能未來變成通案的狀況跟國安會先行討論好嗎"},{"start":26687.145,"end":26699.407,"text":"謝謝委員指教好 謝謝你們當然希望今天後續的預算解凍跟討論可以順利的進行讓你們可以回去好好上班好 謝謝兩位 謝謝主席好 謝謝 那下一位我們請吳思堯委員發言"},{"start":26708.108,"end":26722.236,"text":"謝謝主席在我進入我的詢問之前早上有一些資訊可能要更新一下就是說早上因為我們花了一些時間在程序上做意見的交換那我列舉出馬英九前總統任內然後再處理"},{"start":26725.758,"end":26745.252,"text":"國安會的預算解凍的時候有三度都是由葛光月副秘書長、陸小榮副秘書長來出席代理那個時候立法院都准假我早上提的是馬英九前總統的任內那我現在要補充因為中午休息的時間我又去找了比較多的資料其實從過去李登輝總統、陳水扁總統"},{"start":26749.755,"end":26764.751,"text":"馬英九總統到小英總統蔡英文蔡總統共有19次立法院審查預算決算乃至於解凍預算都是由副秘書長來出席"},{"start":26766.773,"end":26771.197,"text":"所以當然如果說秘書長公務時間安排得當當然秘書長可以來參與預算的審查跟討論這個我們當然都至表歡迎而且依法定的義務他能來他就要來但是呢從李登輝陳水扁馬英九到蔡英文總統"},{"start":26787.711,"end":26800.518,"text":"由副秘書長出席各類的預算會議共有19次所以說不要特別對於吳釗燮秘書長今天他因為主席不准假"},{"start":26801.638,"end":26829.003,"text":"然後就戴他帽子 為難他 修理他我覺得這都是一支公允所以我要做這個事實的補充的陳述只是可惜我們的昭緯在講電話沒有聽到我這一段 沒有關係有直播可以回覆可以讓昭緯好好的來詳加去核對吳四堯所說的樣樣相像都是符合事實跟真相好 那進入我的質詢我請兩位複密"},{"start":26839.211,"end":26852.039,"text":"兩位辛苦了審預算要合理的監督要理性的審查如果是針對性報復性那麼癱瘓了其他憲政機關就是涉及踩到憲法的紅線"},{"start":26853.16,"end":26870.44,"text":"所以說行政院已經針對總預算的二砍二山惡動提出了釋憲民進黨團也已經提出了釋憲我們希望憲法法庭能夠給予史上前所未見的二砍二山預算做出一個合一的判準好 我們尊重憲法法庭後續的處理"},{"start":26871.861,"end":26892.593,"text":"那首先呢 我想先就教於這個許富密喔總統昨天在520的演說當中其實是釋出了善意也遞出了橄欖枝他表達主動願意分享國安資訊給在野黨的領袖們換言之 希望能夠透過國安的專報"},{"start":26896.465,"end":26908.575,"text":"很詳實坦率的讓在野黨的領袖知道台灣現在面臨的國安處境是什麼而大家因為資訊對稱了理解了真正了解中國對台灣的處處不友善境外敵對勢力我們需要朝野合力一起來抵禦這是總統的善意我認為也是總統治理國家促進朝野和解的善意"},{"start":26923.803,"end":26941.345,"text":"但是呢在野黨的黃國昌主席也是我們的黨團總召民眾黨他剛剛我看到他下午的回覆他說他當然很正面的肯定總統願意來釋出國安的這些資訊但是他要求要直播啦"},{"start":26943.925,"end":26964.405,"text":"如果說國家安全的資訊分享要直播那麼機密就不再機密了所有要坦率的像在野黨主席所報告的國安重要事項可能透過直播都傳達到境外敵對勢力去了"},{"start":26965.74,"end":26979.035,"text":"當然黃總召他有補充說ok 需要機密的時候可以不直播但是呢朝野領袖在共商國事探討國安資訊的時候至少要直播但是我認為這個會議怎麼切割啊"},{"start":26981.809,"end":27000.108,"text":"如果說在國安專報的會議分享之後在野黨的主席們領袖們要對外去召開記者會我們尊重嘛但是希望他們不要把國安資訊全部都揭露啊中共最高興啊所以說徐富密你認為"},{"start":27001.77,"end":27012.922,"text":"要用直播 什麼都直播 連國安會議都要直播你覺得可行嗎 因為你們是未來規劃這個跟在野黨領袖報告的幕僚單位啊 可行嗎報告委員 我沒有想到這個任務這麼艱鉅你會習慣的坦白說"},{"start":27021.536,"end":27046.807,"text":"如果我想總統應該講的當然我們現在正在規劃應該講的包括你的規劃是不可能有直播嘛對不對國防啦兩岸啦國安局的問題啦滲透啦灰色地帶啦這些事情事實上都牽涉到很難向外公開說明的情況如果有公開說明的情況那其實"},{"start":27048.127,"end":27075.161,"text":"在野黨的委員或者是黨魁們可以直接從媒體上看到不需要專報專報的事情都是一般我們沒辦法對外講的所以特別慎重嘛要特別邀集大家閉門會議嘛我接著再問所以您的意思是你們作為規劃這個像在野黨領袖的國安專報的幕僚機構你們也認為直播反而會讓這個事情破局嘛就搞破壞了嘛"},{"start":27076.181,"end":27101.432,"text":"是沒有辦法把直播規劃進去的嗎我們沒辦法用直播的方式沒辦法也不應該那剛剛汪小林委員在質詢您的時候說你們國安會去開了很多國際的會議他一樣的邏輯要你把所有的國際會議見了什麼人談了什麼事要全部來清清楚楚的白紙黑字寫給所有的國人看"},{"start":27102.432,"end":27124.005,"text":"同樣的邏輯 如果國安會進行的這些非常重要的國際的串聯我們就是想方設法要在中國的處處打壓 盯梢之下去 找出一點點空間可是蔡英文黨的委員要你把這些會議去哪裡出訪 開什麼會 見了什麼人 要全部都揭露的話"},{"start":27125.226,"end":27135.731,"text":"這不是搞破壞嗎 同樣的邏輯那乾脆翁小玲根據黃國昌委員的要求好了以後國安會出去開的任何一個國際會議都要全程直播"},{"start":27136.721,"end":27140.165,"text":"那樣我們就出不去了就出不去了嘛就搞破壞了嘛所以說拜託在野黨的委員國家安全是什麼國家安全就是我們現在面對的處境有多麼的艱難我們面對的敵人是共同的一個就是境外敵對勢力就是中國"},{"start":27159.98,"end":27182.913,"text":"所以當總統這麼努力的就是我覺得真的是總統就是想讓這些黨的領袖知道我們現在面對的困境是什麼希望藉由這個國安專報讓他們可以看到事實然後seeing is believing而且去理解它然後去幫助自己的國家而不是搞破壞去幫助其他人"},{"start":27185.051,"end":27204.149,"text":"如果要求國安專報要直播我覺得這就是搞破局了耶總統遞出了橄欖枝請在野黨的委員不要連橄欖樹都砍了好嗎我真的心很痛耶總統的用心良苦總統的願意資訊分享不是這樣子來被惡搞的"},{"start":27208.771,"end":27225.817,"text":"來我需要一點時間不好意思主席佔用因為前面幾位委員針對預算也佔用了一點時間回到統統府的預算我認為合理的監督預算就是立法院的職責但是如果是報復性而且你看監察院煽動合併影響了97%"},{"start":27228.738,"end":27231.24,"text":"行政院煽動合併影響了83%、84%的預算而總統府也前所未見煽動合併刪減凍結了共74%這完全就違反了大法官"},{"start":27245.513,"end":27264.85,"text":"391520號的解釋因為你利用預算的審查去讓其他的憲法機關沒有辦法擅盡他們的憲政忠誠義務但非常遺憾就是我們現在面對的總統府今天很辛苦我第一次看到你們的解動報告厚厚的寫著55頁下一頁下一頁"},{"start":27271.087,"end":27298.66,"text":"這是前所未見的過去15年來不論藍綠誰執政不論立法院誰當家過去15年來平均凍結預算因為我們今天在解凍預算我就整理凍結預算平均凍結預算過去15年每年平均凍396萬今年凍了多少2.14億嘛對不對何富密所以今年的凍結是過去的54倍這前所未見嘛對不對何富密好下一頁"},{"start":27300.276,"end":27322.015,"text":"而凍結當中又鎖定業務費業務費被凍了96%而且設下前所未有的解凍門檻就是你們先執行了30%然後呢 再去申請解凍還要經過立法院院會的同意這也是前所未有的解凍門檻嘛對不對 何副秘好 那在下一頁"},{"start":27325.138,"end":27342.961,"text":"而且呢 預算是不能留用的 不能挖東牆補西牆所以你們現在是不是只剩下九千一百七十六萬左右 是不是 能撐到年底嗎就是總體預算被煽動之後 能夠用的只有九千多萬"},{"start":27343.522,"end":27358.613,"text":"能撐到年底嗎我們現在很緊張也很痛苦剛剛有特別講到阿兵哥的部分那也不可能天天吃沙拉嘛我們就來講阿兵哥這一條好了你們被凍結的是廚師費嘛是憲兵的伙食費"},{"start":27359.654,"end":27380.246,"text":"是保留的嘛 國防部的嘛那是兩邊嘛 國防部編有限兵的伙食費但是編在總統府的是這個膳食費是廚師的費用換言之沒有廚師了誰煮飯給阿兵哥是要叫阿兵哥叫Uber嗎剛剛翁委員居然讓我聽到他說阿兵哥沒有廚師煮飯去叫Uber哇"},{"start":27383.649,"end":27400.029,"text":"有可能總統府的憲兵叫Uber嗎?四邀委員我跟您報告因為是元首的維安是啊所以天天吃外食那個一定會出事安全的疑慮食品衛生安全的疑慮這是基本的ABC嘛委員專業 謝謝"},{"start":27401.01,"end":27412.339,"text":"所以說 伙食費是編在國防部 伙食費就算有可是你廚師被砍掉了就像在野黨的委員一樣在司法法治委員會砍掉了監察院97%的業務費 包括他的油錢所以監察院是有司機的可是他是剛好油錢沒了"},{"start":27420.984,"end":27434.77,"text":"被砍掉了所以空有司機沒有油錢現在監委如果要用司機去查案妨礙要自己出油錢同樣的道理這實在是太可異了下一頁報復性的刪減總統的法定義務會受到很多的影響下一頁"},{"start":27443.27,"end":27449.297,"text":"總統府要進入黑暗的時代了嗎總統府的夜間電費已經暫停了水電費是不是剩下65萬可以用是的怎麼撐到年底在兩個禮拜就沒有錢繳水電費了是前所未見下一頁"},{"start":27460.108,"end":27478.434,"text":"總統的重要慶典的舉辦費剩下453萬很難再辦大規模的重要慶典了 對不對下一頁我知道總統不是總統我把那個那個召集人說成總統那個您站起來我會加快是資訊服務費我們"},{"start":27480.374,"end":27495.237,"text":"113年每個月平均有700萬次的駭客攻擊而且全年遭受這個DDoS的重大攻擊10次以上現在呢資安費用只砍到只有1627萬可以用喔可以撐到年底嗎資安會漏洞門戶大開嗎這是中國最高興的現在趕快來駭客攻擊了來最後下面一樣喔總統府是1919年蓋的"},{"start":27509.059,"end":27515.909,"text":"古蹟啊 國定古蹟啊依照文資法 古蹟要定期的修繕維護但是你們的修繕維護的房屋建築費用只剩下1840萬可以撐到年底嗎"},{"start":27525.242,"end":27541.09,"text":"治療委員是文化的專業我們現在都很辛苦而且他需要符合文資法所以執行起來真的很困難不要讓總統府帶頭違反文資法因為呢房屋修繕養護費被刪5%動70%所以沒有辦法支用總統府這個文化資產不論誰當選總統未來也有可能吳宗憲在裡面工作"},{"start":27553.112,"end":27559.222,"text":"擔任重要的職務羅志強就曾經在這一棟國定古蹟總統府裡面任職服務過"},{"start":27560.7,"end":27584.129,"text":"文化資產保存法我來自文化界不要讓總統府沒有預算去修復維護文化資產我後面還很多頁沒有辦法來論述我希望在野黨的委員趕快把預算解凍總統府是國家的總統府不是賴清德的總統府是全民的總統府我們一起來為預算努力謝謝"},{"start":27585.109,"end":27586.63,"text":"馬英九時代的國安會秘書長他身邊的人沒有涉及共敵案"},{"start":27605.496,"end":27622.851,"text":"所以這個是我們認為還是有所差別的報告召委現在的國安會不是共諜那個是他外交部的時候好不好好 謝謝啦讓我把話不要插我們的話好 讓我把話講完所以說我要說明嘛因為你對我這個有質疑嘛那我的說明就是"},{"start":27625.133,"end":27648.778,"text":"對 他在其他時候但他身邊的重要人員甚至排行程的人員他有涉及共諜案那這個在過往馬英九時代並沒有發生但剛吳委員所提出來馬英九時代那些副秘書長來的次數這個我都沒有意見我都予以認同但是畢竟現在跟以前的狀況不太一樣所以我們才希望秘書長能夠到並不是找他麻煩這邊跟吳委員好 沒關係"},{"start":27655.503,"end":27669.498,"text":"但是他們身邊的人都沒有涉及共諜案我想說我的重點還是劃在他身邊的重要人員有沒有涉及共諜案因為國安會是掌握國家安全非常重要的單位"},{"start":27671.32,"end":27690.125,"text":"我們希望我們很慎重的面對這個事我們要替國人監督好這件事這就是為什麼我希望他要來的原因並不是說像你大家說的什麼我把他扣帽子是沒有啦那請大家能夠了解一下那這個謝謝吳委員提供給我的資料那接下來我們請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":27697.983,"end":27724.039,"text":"謝謝召委好像現在在4號法治委員會開始執行之前都要先來一段程序上面的發言我先確認一下現在國安會秘書長還是拒絕過來是不是是 跟黃委員報告對他有沒有理由目前應該是從早上到現在為止兩位秘書長都沒有給我一通電話OK"},{"start":27726.248,"end":27731.354,"text":"剛剛啊 有委員在上面程序發言的時候啊 細數了從陳說扁馬英九到蔡英文所以國安會啊 之前解凍的時候 副秘書長來就可以了召委你知不知道 剛點名到的那三位總統有哪一個總統"},{"start":27750.222,"end":27769.726,"text":"用的國安會秘書長是把共諜帶到我們府院黨的高層有這樣的例子嗎沒有 所以我剛剛有講說過去的沒有涉法我每一次在這邊質詢的時候其實我都是針對行政部門我不太想針對其他的委員其他的委員在這邊進行不實的政治攻擊"},{"start":27775.852,"end":27804.327,"text":"讓人覺得啊 讓人覺得非常非常的遺憾但是用委員會啊珍貴的質詢時間來做這樣子的事情啊我只能夠說啊 我只能夠說非常非常的遺憾一個立法委員連自己基本的職責是什麼都搞不清楚然後利用站在這一邊質詢的時間對其他的委員發動不實的抹黑攻擊啊"},{"start":27805.585,"end":27820.591,"text":"讓人覺得非常非常的遺憾今天國安會的秘書長還是沒有來嘛好來 總統府的秘書長你有請 你有准假嗎總統府秘書長我有准假好來請 我們總統府副秘書長委員好副秘書長好喔說到"},{"start":27832.891,"end":27861.221,"text":"滲透到我們總統府裡面去全體國人都很關心我相信您今天來這邊一定有所準備其中賴清德副總統辦公室的姿意2023年8月的時候他還有參與有關於副巴拉圭整個行程的事情現在這位吳尚宇被羈押了"},{"start":27862.728,"end":27872.274,"text":"我要問的第一個問題是請問這位吳尚宇到總統府或者是到副總統辦公室任職的時候有沒有辦理特殊查核"},{"start":27874.137,"end":27895.588,"text":"據我所知一定要有做一些身家的調查不好意思啊我們在立法院就談法律啦什麼是身家調查我聽不懂啊現在又不是回到以前警總的時代他有沒有辦特殊查核請允許我更精準的回應當時是沒有的他不用辦特殊查核嗎"},{"start":27896.548,"end":27905.748,"text":"各位委員報告一下因為吳尚宇是聘用之一那聘用之一的話他是一般查核只查雙重國籍跟刑事之一您覺得這樣子的查核密度夠嗎來請副秘書長"},{"start":27911.088,"end":27934.535,"text":"呃 認為個人認為這是不夠的不夠的嘛那這個制度改革需要多久目前也有聽到委員黃國昌委員您的一些建議跟想法這些建議非常好那我們現在已經要確定要擴大這個場需要多久現在已經在走行政院會選對所以需要多久還不知道這國家安全知識體大"},{"start":27936.468,"end":27960.328,"text":"怎麼會拖這麼久呢這不是天大地大的事嗎怎麼行政效率這麼差還需要多久這個事情爆發到現在多久啦還在跑行政流程喔國家安全不是很重要嗎用這麼輕忽的態度這麼緩慢的流程在處理國家安全的議題適合嗎"},{"start":27964.195,"end":27985.151,"text":"跟委員報告的確我們法律一定要法治就如同您在當老師的時候這個程序非常重要法治非常重要是沒錯所以現在不僅僅我們也開始做我只問一個簡單的問題還需要多久所以還需要多久不知道絕對禁訴並且在會禁訴嗎好我們拭目以待看什麼時候禁訴請問吳尚宇什麼時候從總統府離職的"},{"start":27991.284,"end":28018.795,"text":"這個部分我精準一點的回答是今年的2月19號今年的2月19號他為什麼離職?當時候說好像自行辭職那他的原因是說要回家照顧家人的樣子他2月19號是自行辭職的喔?是他是自行辭職還是被辭職?自行辭職因為他非常的神準啊是邱嗣源、黃曲榮收押進建的時候同案的啦"},{"start":28020.302,"end":28047.112,"text":"他馬上就辭啦就讓他覺得很奇怪嘛這個時間點啊巧合到讓人不可置信啊兩個同案的被告被收押現在總統府的說法是他自刑請辭不是被辭職嗎是嗎委員我可以表達一下我的意見跟觀察沒有沒有我現在只問事實的問題啦如果他是共諜就要創造最大的殺傷力嗎所以他在幹什麼"},{"start":28048.12,"end":28072.745,"text":"他在幹什麼如果是共諜的話一定要引爆最大的輿論媒體爆破力所以很明顯的他在幹這些事啊那這些事情他一定要有法律最嚴格的對待那個副秘書長你要發表你的意見你隨時開記者會啊請你不要占用我質詢的時間所以副秘書長一到你的意見啊這個吳尚宇很可惡啊"},{"start":28076.4,"end":28102.068,"text":"他要發揮最大的爆炸力所以在2月19號辭職是這樣嗎我現在有一點聽不太懂這是我個人的見解沒有關係我尊重你個人的見解他在總統府任職多久了他在總統府任職多久了他在總統府任職兩年又五個月兩年又五個月潛伏這麼久總統府都沒有發現任何異樣"},{"start":28104.005,"end":28121.265,"text":"我想全世界的這些espionage都一樣啦這些都一樣啦沒有關係啦我只有問你客觀的事實啦就是兩年五個月總統府都沒有發現一樣要離職也是他自己離職我想各個國家都面臨一模一樣的挑戰是 請你回答問題就好了啦"},{"start":28122.446,"end":28140.176,"text":"所以我再確定一次嘛潛伏了兩年五個月總統府都不知道即使到2月19號也是他要自行離職客觀事實是不是這樣我們在其他國家還有潛伏更久的我們都很氣這個沒有關係啦我說你要援引其他國家當例子那個是你的自由啦"},{"start":28140.896,"end":28159.634,"text":"你去開記者會講就好了我在這邊都只問客觀的事情是客觀的事情是潛伏了兩年五個月都沒有發現2月19號他是自行辭職不是被辭職的是不是這樣是的是這樣嘛好沒有關係因為這個事情喔我其實在這個委員會我也公開講過我公開告發了"},{"start":28162.406,"end":28177.124,"text":"我公開告發了接下來的事情就交給台北地檢署去處理我今天要質詢的第二個議題是嚴肅的議題我們派了一個張教授跑去英國擔任公使"},{"start":28178.157,"end":28196.05,"text":"你們在派那個公子以前啊有沒有做有關於相關相關人事的查核委員我真的很抱歉喔因為這不是我的業務我可能沒辦法回應那所以這是誰的業務我這個應該是外交部沒有啊這個林佳龍說這是總統任命的啊"},{"start":28196.91,"end":28213.237,"text":"這是總統的權責啊我們都有相對應的分工但是這個業務是我沒有辦法精準的回應您那今天總統府有人有辦法回應這件事嗎這個部分還是要有外交部會這個人事作業沒有經過總統府一局的部分再拜託一下"},{"start":28214.457,"end":28242.072,"text":"奇怪 複密你對總統府的職長好像不是很清楚耶任命總統令出來不就是掛賴總統的名字嗎怎麼你當複密對自己總統府的業務職長這麼陌生之前啦人事令出來以前就已經出來質疑啦學歷造假的人派去英國當公使是要丟台灣的臉嗎"},{"start":28244.215,"end":28272.686,"text":"是在丟台灣的臉嗎報告委員那個江公使的部分他是用特任公使的身份來任命的所以外交部在這個地方因為他是屬於政務官那依照任用法的規定他不屬於特殊查核的部分但是必要的查核還有剛剛講到一般的查核外交部事先都沒有我只是問一個最簡單的問題"},{"start":28274.407,"end":28281.076,"text":"這個是牽涉到台灣國家國格的問題啊我們派一個學歷造假的人去英國當公使適合嗎"},{"start":28282.943,"end":28307.569,"text":"你覺得適合嗎報告委員這件事情科技部國科會有發布新聞稿說明說明什麼說明他學歷是真的他說明是他在登記上跟過去跟他的證書上是有錯誤但是如果從學生寫假的東西說是有錯誤這會不會太可笑啊他自己念啊他自己有沒有念法學院他自己不知道"},{"start":28310.659,"end":28337.52,"text":"他是當事人本人耶那個沒有事實判斷的問題耶他在哪一個學院拿到博士學位他自己不知道這個部分我們尊重這個國科會對外的說明啊對啊 國科會對外的說明就上面寫的東西是假的啊現在我問你的是國家基本立場的問題啊學歷造假還派去英國當公使那不丟人現眼嗎"},{"start":28340.373,"end":28368.446,"text":"以後我們還要不要跟英國促進學術交流全科技 文化 教育等等的協議派一個學歷造假的人代表台灣台灣是沒人喔委員 這個部分我把意見帶回一定給你一個很快速給你一個交代好不好我直接啊是複密是我講話下來有憑有據我一頁頁帶給你看看不下去啦"},{"start":28369.861,"end":28397.158,"text":"我這兩天接到的檢舉多了他去跟科技部過去的科技部現在的國科會申請計畫的時候他說他個人資料表的主要學歷計畫主持人不願意公開這很奇怪我很少看到大學的教授跟國科會跟科技部申請計畫我作為一個大學的教授我主要學歷我不願意公開"},{"start":28399.785,"end":28428.147,"text":"這是怎麼回事啊結果他的畢業證書上面明明寫的他是社會科學與健康學院這是他的畢業證書畢業證書寫社會科學與健康學院來看一下他給科技部的個人資料表寫什麼來請複密仔細看南衛學門系所法學院上面就寫法學院"},{"start":28429.652,"end":28452.046,"text":"這個資料是不是偽造變造的總統府我相信去找國科會來一翻兩瞪眼白紙黑字他明明就不是法學院畢業的在學歷上面寫法學院畢業的就好像我台大法律系畢業的我可以在我學歷上面登載說我是台大醫學系畢業的嗎"},{"start":28454.073,"end":28473.327,"text":"這怎麼會用錯誤兩個字來形容這根本是造假這是偽造文書啊我當初還是想說Dohan Law SchoolDohan大學是不是沒有Law School我要特別上網去查有Law School但他念的就不是Law School啊"},{"start":28475.193,"end":28498.266,"text":"這樣學歷造假的人 派去英國當公使丟國家的臉啊報告委員 他送過來的資料 給我們的資料上面不是寫法學對嘛 現在問題就來了嘛現在你應該緊鄰大作啊他為什麼給總統府講一套 給國科會講另外一套是不是被人家揭發了以後 發現別康了趕快更改上面學歷的記載 是這樣嗎"},{"start":28500.567,"end":28528.338,"text":"這個部分國科會的新聞稿也有說明他當初寫資料後來經過查證之後有請他做個人的更正的部分所以現在問題就來了嘛我把全責跟你講清楚啦國科會的事情請你放心我一定會去國科會追到底當初在學倫大會上面怎麼放水的整個過程我大概都掌握了我一定跟國科會追究到底但問題是什麼"},{"start":28530.214,"end":28557.402,"text":"從你們任命公使之前客觀的資訊清楚的顯示他就是學歷造假沒什麼好說的不是法學院畢業說是法學院畢業這不是造假什麼是造假如果這樣的人可以當英國公使那以後全台灣的學子在履歷表上面愛怎麼寫就怎麼寫因為我們有個最好的榜樣啦造假都可以當公使"},{"start":28560.862,"end":28564.683,"text":"這不是要台灣的臉丟到英國去了嗎我有說錯嗎今天複密 大意把我的意見帶回去 就請帶回去我靜觀 我靜觀這件事情接下來要怎麼發展還是說 錯了 不願意認錯總統的派令都出來了 出去就出去了"},{"start":28590.35,"end":28616.845,"text":"來 請鳳梨講話 因為你舉手沒有話想講 請非常謝謝委員我想總統不可能管到整個台灣沒錯嘛 所以我才說你們人事作業是怎麼做的嘛所以他會有分工嘛是 社交部 科技部 國科會那現在我們一定會去要求我們一定會去因為畢竟上面掛的是總統府沒錯 你說到重點了所以這個部分我一定把你的意見帶回去該怎麼辦就怎麼辦好 很好謝謝拭目以待 好 謝謝"},{"start":28620.984,"end":28640.676,"text":"好謝謝 那我們下一位請羅志強委員發言有請總統府何富密署長"},{"start":28649.273,"end":28664.482,"text":"首先第一個我當然還是先要表達一下今天兩位秘書長沒有來我的看法那我還是覺得是首先第一天我今天本來聽說以為是你們都不到那我就覺得事情蠻大條但還好你有來啦 還好你有來但是我覺得"},{"start":28665.402,"end":28690.175,"text":"昨天我們賴清德總統才說要對話嘛那事實上加上我也看你們的報告剛剛你的詢答也把今天解凍案的一些各項問題講得非常嚴重啊我個人衷心的建議啦就是說像既然認為這麼嚴重的事情而預算的一個所謂的決定權也不是副秘書長是秘書長的一個權限這種情況之下當然還是希望齁這個首長能夠到包括國安會包括"},{"start":28691.435,"end":28709.96,"text":"總統府的秘書長但是我還是特別提一下因為至少總統府的秘書長有跟我們的主席請假那這一點的話主席也准假所以在程序上嚴格來講我覺得沒有什麼太大的問題所以我們就可以開始繼續我們今天的一些詢問首先我想要請教一下我們的副秘書長就是"},{"start":28712.34,"end":28735.625,"text":"總統的520的獎稿是哪個單位府內哪個單位做幕僚作業的我們的公共事務室下面的有幾個單位還有這個他們有一些那個叫做文稿小組差不多啦但是文稿小組的話是哪位副秘書長督導的是我們的張敦涵所以不是你的督導職務嗎因為以他為主"},{"start":28738.646,"end":28766.958,"text":"那我先跟何富密講 因為我也當過總統府副秘書長以前在我的任內的話 基本上文稿小組是我在督導的所以520的講稿基本上就是我這邊要負責彙整整合然後做擬稿跟定稿那我今天發現一件事情 我想請教我們副秘書長你知道我們歷來包括從陳水扁 馬英九 蔡英文到賴清德的520講稿哪一位總統520講稿裡面竟然沒有出現兩岸"},{"start":28769.107,"end":28772.497,"text":"哪一位總統?您知道嗎?就是賴清德總統"},{"start":28776.434,"end":28798.42,"text":"其他的總統都會提到兩岸包括賴清哲總統就職的時候也有特別提到兩岸提到中國的滲透跟威脅那我不知道為什麼今年的520講稿會破歷史之記錄在520講稿裡面是不放兩岸這一塊有什麼樣特殊的原因讓總統府有這樣的考量嗎這個部分我可能沒辦法"},{"start":28799.605,"end":28826.141,"text":"做這樣子的回應因為你不是文稿小組的那個督導的副秘書長但是我先講一件事情這件事情我覺得傳遞一個坦白講對總統不是很恰當的訊息總統對外釋出一個不是很恰當的訊息那就變成是有幾種解讀方式嘛一個是總統認為兩岸他做得太好好到沒話說所以不用說了別的總統都還要稍微提一下兩岸"},{"start":28827.341,"end":28854.392,"text":"結果我做得太棒了 我無話可說是這樣的意思嗎您覺得 您當他幕僚也當了一年多了嘛 對不對一年嘛 一天我覺得這個部分還是要由委員以及全國的民眾來看待對 因為這個部分我直接回答說好也不是 說不好也不是所以我沒辦法給一個直接的回應我瞭解 你的回答當然要保守一點你做幕僚你要保守一點"},{"start":28854.952,"end":28868.915,"text":"可是我要講 你一定是釋出一個非常不尋常的一個訊息出去嘛你要嘛就是說 你今天總統真的兩岸關係做不好你覺得講了讓大家覺得 你覺得沒有東西可以跟大家交代再不然你就覺得做得太好 對不對 我不需要講"},{"start":28869.926,"end":28897.597,"text":"那另外一個就是說也有人認為說今天難道是受到美方的壓力嗎因為兩岸關係趙總統去年跟最近的說法其實都蠻強硬的嘛這一點沒錯嘛都比較強硬嘛那今年如果520裡面他沒有一點強硬的兩岸關係的說法那跟他以前的調性不合的話那就變得好像外界覺得翻車還是打臉可是他又沒有辦法今天講的所謂的很強硬那可能有一些外部壓力我覺得為什麼剛剛特別強調"},{"start":28900.078,"end":28928.882,"text":"當然你不能講但是外界自然而然對於總統這次的520講稿就有很多很多的解讀嘛就非常特殊的一點像我們在彙整講稿的時候一定是兩岸國防外交經濟教育文化各個面向環保面向我們就可能會認為說哪些東西要把它列進去但是有一樣東西兩岸國防外交因為總統的所謂的核心職能這三塊幾乎沒有一個總統會在520講稿裡面把它落掉的"},{"start":28929.542,"end":28954.728,"text":"那我到現在為止是不能理解啦不能理解為什麼總統在這次520講稿裡面會把兩岸這塊落掉那也麻煩你轉告另外一位張副秘書長或是總府發言人們能不能跟他示意一下為什麼今天要破天荒核心職務竟然少一塊那你不能跟我講那個二缺一總統啊就只剩下兩塊而已啊這是第一個啦那第二個我也想要請教一下那個副秘書長坦白講我覺得"},{"start":28956.408,"end":28972.984,"text":"我蠻覺得羨慕我們賴清德總統賴清德總統最近講了一段話我真的身為也當過總務府的幕僚我看的是下巴掉下來了請問是誰定位那個中國大陸是境外敵對勢力誰定位的"},{"start":28975.711,"end":28996.984,"text":"我想這個部分要問一下我們的國防部他們國安部第一個公開站出來定位 當領導人的就是賴清德總統他直接說境外敵對勢力就是中共我想常常聽委員在質詢的時候我們也是這樣定位的啊我跟你講公開啦 直接定位的賴清德總統是第一人"},{"start":28997.95,"end":29010.993,"text":"那現在問題來了齁已經定位對岸是境外敵對勢力我真的不太懂那個邏輯啦為什麼說大陸是大公司我們是小公司要來併購台灣要提條件我要問的第一個問題齁大陸併台灣是有條件可以講可以跟境外敵對勢力來談條件的嗎請問一下副秘書長要談什麼條件我們才願意跟他談啊到底大陸要提什麼條件願意跟他談啊"},{"start":29027.895,"end":29053.067,"text":"我想這個整個裡面的那個interview那個專訪裡面有四個字一定要看到叫做這不行啊這不行啊這不行啊他全面舉那個例子我告訴你我也有看啦我也有看啦我告訴你我跟你講我也有看啦大家都有嘛我也有看啦他就是說要尊重中華民國存在的事實不是我跟你講"},{"start":29053.507,"end":29068.455,"text":"你所謂這不行 你前面舉的那個例子加一句這不行 我跟你講 外面的解讀也是很多啦第一個就講說 意思說你沒有提條件就不行啊那你就跟我講說對方要提條件 我直接跟你說啦沒有任何條件可談 你認同嗎"},{"start":29070.302,"end":29099.543,"text":"副市長認不認同其實賴總統我跟境外敵對勢力我有什麼東西可以談你都說他是境外敵對勢力是敵人了敵人要併你請問到底有什麼可談的啊我想他只是一個比喻那他沒有要去併我跟副秘書長講我抱歉因為也同樣你說文稿不是你負責那我就要苛責那位張副秘書長了本來就是啊總統講這樣的話坦白講我覺得是對總統的職位跟高度是有傷害的"},{"start":29100.143,"end":29108.813,"text":"那今天作為總統的幕僚單位你讓總統有這樣的一個表現一個狀況更何況我跟你講就我所知那個節目是直播嗎"},{"start":29110.991,"end":29136.093,"text":"這個節目原則上全面的沒有剪接沒有剪接啊原汁原味那我告訴你喔有沒有剪接是一回事啦他既然不是直播的節目你做一個幕僚單位也許總統是即興為之難道你不需要看一下嗎做幕僚單位有沒有總統interview完之後把那個節目再看一遍因為他還沒播嘛沒錯吧有沒有看一遍"},{"start":29137.768,"end":29156.271,"text":"據我的了解應該是有啦對當然要看啊看完以後沒有一個幕僚沒有一個幕僚覺得總統講這樣不對一個幕僚都沒有嗎你有沒有看我是後來才看到但是允許我15秒鐘一 主權絕對不是商品啦"},{"start":29156.86,"end":29181.881,"text":"二 我覺得賴總統對於主權的堅持是大家有目共睹的第三個部分這個反規裡面它只是一個比喻但是更多的部分在論述台灣主權的重要性以及中華民國的純正不可侵犯以及尊重國民那我想 而且最後一個部分就是其實我們這一次的專訪我們在日本打開市場了"},{"start":29182.481,"end":29211.411,"text":"那用這樣子的比喻更多有商業思維的朋友也會更認同我們我們當初的起心動念是這樣子當然委員的指教我都聽下來我也記錄下來其實我覺得你三點講得很好啊謝謝非常好啊尤其第一點可是我好怕你會突然再問我齁可以認識這麼久齁你都OK的我知道啦我跟你講你剛剛講第一個就是重點嘛主權不是商品是的所以那結合第三點就是你的比喻你說這只是個比喻你把"},{"start":29212.111,"end":29225.487,"text":"主權比喻為商品 坦白講我覺得 我先不講賴清德總統啦仍有失言 比喻不當 也是有可能可是幕僚的部分 更何況我還是講那個節目又不是直播"},{"start":29226.536,"end":29245.375,"text":"我真的覺得你如果幕僚稍微有點敏感度在事後看了以後應該也要點出這件事情啊所以這一點是我還是覺得說幕僚工作還是要做好那最後我要特別講就是說基本上賴清德總統我覺得那個朝野的對話我很支持但是呢"},{"start":29246.964,"end":29270.865,"text":"為什麼要加一個國安的限制啊我們中華民國草野之間因為重視當然重視那你跟我講經濟不重視還是說外交不重視還是說今天農業不重視環境不重視你是學長其實國安裡面都有包含啦那我跟你講你就針對台灣的政經情勢做大家一個相互溝通因為重視所以因為太重視所以我們張開雙手我還是那句話啦"},{"start":29273.547,"end":29284.043,"text":"既然要朝野對話就不要給自己框一個框框啊因為總統是一個有高度的職務除非你不要嘛你不要是一回事那是一個政治選擇但你要的時候就大家覺得說"},{"start":29285.031,"end":29302.223,"text":"感覺我覺得格局跟氣度還可以再恢弘一點點雙手都要張開來去跟大家對話協商雙手張開我就說一點點只有國安這一塊用國安來做的話才是真正的規格啊好啦我跟你講我要告訴你什麼叫國政經緯萬端不要什麼都冠國安兩個字啦"},{"start":29310.348,"end":29325.978,"text":"國安當然是一個範疇一個國安的專業範疇領域也有他的一個專業定義範圍那你什麼都無限上綱也不一定是一件好事這是我最後忠心的建議啦所以如果說真的朝野對話真的不用去框現什麼樣的框架謝謝你感謝 謝謝這樣齁 那個我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":29701.766,"end":29729.772,"text":"好 那現在我們請鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員 鄭天才委員洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷委員鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員 蘇清泉委員林楚英委員 林楚英委員 林楚英委員鄭正前委員 鄭正前委員 鄭正前委員蔡易宇委員 蔡易宇委員 蔡易宇委員"},{"start":29731.642,"end":29744.11,"text":"所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢詢答結束委員諮詢時要求提供相關資料或書面答覆者請相關機關請速送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":29758.906,"end":29779.684,"text":"那委員審發會所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆現在進行議程所列預算解凍案處理前請議事人員並宣讀報告事項及討論事項之預算解凍案請宣讀報告事項國家安全會議函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減鬆稅出"},{"start":29782.066,"end":29796.919,"text":"第一款第二項決議依政務人員待遇預算凍結10萬元書面報告請查照案討論四項第一案之第五案為依總統府函為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送決議依預算凍結專案報告請查照案二減送新增決議依業務費預算凍結報告請查照案三"},{"start":29803.764,"end":29826.619,"text":"減送新增決議20及23預算凍結專案報告請查照案減送新增決議26預算凍結專案報告請查照案減送新增決議48預算凍結專案報告請查照案第六案至第八案為國家安全會議含為114年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第一款第二項業務費預算凍結30%專案報告請查照案減送稅出第一款第二項"},{"start":29834.084,"end":29838.629,"text":"諮詢研究業務預算凍結200萬元書面報告請查找案8.減送稅出第一款第二項諮詢研究業務中業務費預算凍結100萬元專案報告請查找案宣讀完畢"},{"start":29853.225,"end":29869.624,"text":"本次議程所列預算解凍案均已宣讀完畢現在進行處理一例我們照議程所列順序先處理報告事項議程報告事項有關國家安全會議一四年度預算解凍書面報告案"},{"start":29870.385,"end":29892.995,"text":"剛已經列入議程提出書面報告並經宣讀做如下決議准予備查提報院會那請問各位有無異議就國安會的部分有異議好那有異議的話因為有委員提出異議那能有意見所以我們就另定其繼續處理等一下等一下第幾案"},{"start":29894.291,"end":29915.837,"text":"現在不是要進入嗎報告事項有異議就另定期處理好那接著報告事項處理完畢繼續進行討論事項我們按機關別先進行總統府預算解凍案部分是不是稍微緩一下等副秘書長進來等一下主席"},{"start":29918.11,"end":29927.26,"text":"先進行總統府的預算解凍案部分等一下主席我會議詢問一下好嗎不好意思因為剛剛在宣讀完的是報告事項嘛"},{"start":29928.413,"end":29957.272,"text":"那報告事項照理講這個當初審查預算的是說政務人員待遇預算凍結十萬元的書面報告只要送書面報告就可以解凍了這應該是當初這個預算案委員會做成的決議是不是那我先詢問完沒關係那為什麼這個這一類的因為他並不是審查同意厚實的凍支他是送來報告書面報告就可以凍支的這個類型"},{"start":29958.953,"end":29981.27,"text":"那為什麼這個可以有意義就這個跟當初我們做成的決議不一樣喔等一下的討論案如果說確實是有意義可以一案一案討論第一個我要爭執的是說這明明就是不能夠在這裡有意義的這個案因為是送來書面報告就可以解凍第一案是這樣所以剛剛這個案子應該是通過的我說明一下"},{"start":29982.771,"end":30011.431,"text":"那依照本委員會的往例那報告事項在此部分如果委員有異議的話那依照以前往例都是繼續處理這個部分我有先跟委員會確認過是嗎 是這樣嗎我以前在交易文化委員會從來沒有這樣過要說明一下嗎我們就過往的通案是不是說明一下 那沒關係那如果這樣的話那剛剛有異議的委員要說明一下他的理由啊因為我們要報答我們三位委員耶我們三位委員耶"},{"start":30013.464,"end":30027.534,"text":"這個主席要尊重一下怎麼說有意義啊你也不問一下就直接這樣子我們是令定期處理我們不會就不處理他這個案子第一個這一類就是送來書面報告就可以動之的這個所有的委員會都是這樣"},{"start":30029.135,"end":30054.848,"text":"因為剛剛有委員有意見那有意見不用說一下嗎國安會能夠趕快跟有意見的委員溝通一下那我們另定期就可以趕快處理這件事情那因為我這個東西我有先跟委員會確認一下那本委員會往例也都是如此處理我是要嚴正的抗議委員會我審預算十年在立法院"},{"start":30056.329,"end":30067.662,"text":"這種書面報告來送來就可以動之它不是審查後死的動之耶它是送來就可以動之這一類怎麼還可以有意義來把它擋下來呢?委員會說明一下啊有這樣嗎?誰告訴你可以這樣?"},{"start":30075.41,"end":30093.842,"text":"國安會這個案子我理解的沒有錯嘛是送書面報告就可動之嘛你後面的審查案委員有意見都沒有問題這是程序的問題這一類等一下翁委員對於其他的案子你有問題你可以保留我們可以討論可是就是這一案它不行啊"},{"start":30096.331,"end":30123.041,"text":"就是不行啊 這個是有問題的就是分委會確定有這個慣例啦什麼時候的慣例 找出來因為我真的沒有碰過啦 審查委員是要補充什麼來 請問委員說像審查案始得動 都可以表達意見可是這一案就是不行啊我的那個審犯會委員是很有審查預算經驗的培餘也是意見多 提書面報告後 始得動之就是送來 送答就可以動之啦這一類真的是這樣啦就寫經同意"},{"start":30123.926,"end":30130.975,"text":"對啊 這個是送來就可以動之的它不是經同意後使的動之而且它也不是審查案"},{"start":30133.42,"end":30155.988,"text":"張偉我說真的你後面的案子有意見真的可以一案一案我們就坐在這裡可以來討論我們相信大家都願意理性對話可是這個案類就不是啊他為什麼是報告事項他不是討論事項就是因為他送來報告就可以動之了這基本開會的ABC審查預算的ABC啊方慧文我說的沒錯吧"},{"start":30157.665,"end":30170.371,"text":"那在場所有的文官大家都點頭啊從以前你們當總統府國安會的秘書應該是幕僚這麼久了應該就是這樣啊他之所以是報告事項就是送來書面報告就可以動之的"},{"start":30172.199,"end":30183.352,"text":"可以就是可以 不可以就是不可以啊我們不能這樣子做錯誤的會議的才是等一下的討論事項 任何一個議案有意見都可以再保留"},{"start":30190.928,"end":30194.311,"text":"這就是最大的差別 它是報告事項而不是討論事項啊"},{"start":30207.017,"end":30225.423,"text":"主席真的啦對就是對不對就是不對啦這個會議的ABC基本的資料謝謝大家願意理性討論啦但是這個程序上不正確就是不正確我一定要提出來我要講一下就是這個解凍書面報告就是檢送解凍書面報告"},{"start":30227.243,"end":30232.408,"text":"書面報告如果說他今天只寫一個字他也當成是書面報告我們也要同意嗎所以剛剛吳士堯所說的那個只要送書面報告就一定要解凍我覺得這是兩回事還是要看書面報告的內容更何況今天國安會秘書長他應該要來做報告為什麼政務人員的部分他們要聘請諮詢委員"},{"start":30255.627,"end":30258.89,"text":"為什麼要比以前要拼這麼多然後書面報告裡面也沒有講清楚就是把條文抄一抄所以這樣的書面報告我們會認為它是一個合格的書面報告嗎包含它今天其他的所有後面的案子也是一樣所以就"},{"start":30274.413,"end":30294.649,"text":"講的所謂的這個送書面報告之後立刻就可以解凍我覺得這個部分基本上並不合理而且就內容的部分就像我講的嘛你書面報告他只送一個字解凍或兩個字那是不是也是難道就要這樣做嗎"},{"start":30301.015,"end":30312.481,"text":"好看起來主席還在跟相關的幕僚確認喔但是我想要提醒歐委員請你看一下如果你當時加價寫的話他就不應該他就不應該放在報告事項裡頭他就應該放在討論事項而且他這個報告也不是只有像您所指控的寫一個字他寫了這麼多報告內容主席你說的是有前例不是有慣例"},{"start":30328.905,"end":30333.629,"text":"過去有權利 就這一屆有權利但是以前沒有這樣 從來沒有這樣過有權利 但是他不是慣例慣例是報告事項沒有說有意義這就是為什麼他區分報告事項跟討論事項"},{"start":30346.459,"end":30348.12,"text":"現在這邊我看到了在113年12月30號星期一的會議的當時的報告事項會議紀錄也是一樣同樣的也是就不予被查因為委員有異議所以就不予被查"},{"start":30361.724,"end":30383.446,"text":"然後呢而且也會說定期繼續處理當時出席的委員也有吳思瑤的審發會你們都在這就是我說有潛力嘛就這一屆的時候有過嘛有潛力而已因為我們有提出意義啊所以沒關係如果歐委員你要用所謂的潛力來把它變成是一個慣例或通例的話那個陳委員先停一下"},{"start":30384.347,"end":30398.163,"text":"所以我的意思是這樣我們有潛力表示這麼做沒有違法但是我覺得有一個兩全其美的方式大家先溝通好不好你要發言還是先溝通不是不行這麼做"},{"start":30403.305,"end":30421.964,"text":"首先第一個我覺得既然有潛力當然大家對於執行的方式哪個比較恰當有不同的意見但我也認為基本上報告事項跟討論事項當中我覺得我們還是把重心放在討論事項所以報告事項這個部分我認為本席覺得說可以遵以查照"},{"start":30422.685,"end":30443.464,"text":"那翁委員 所以我就很簡單嘛 就有沒有異議嘛因為這就是正常程序啊 不要說這是正常程序我要講這個之前本來就有潛力 本來就是委員可以提異議就可以另定其處理 我還是要再講國安會議這次提的報告事項仍然是不合格對 你們還是沒有講為什麼你們要聘這麼多的諮詢委員 過去都沒有"},{"start":30448.986,"end":30464.702,"text":"對那既然這個當然這個所以我要強調是說這個案子不是我們剛剛講的不是說不正常程序這是完全合法正常的程序過去就這麼做那是因為你沒有在司法委員會你不知道更何況你上次自己"},{"start":30465.442,"end":30485.76,"text":"我在48委員會啊 委員我當十年的立委了好啦 剛剛志強委員都說了下一次你提案就是寫送書面報告 經同意後實的動之我們就沒話講我們如果說這樣討論 我可以免於同意但是你不應該說剛剛的程序是違法的"},{"start":30486.921,"end":30503.689,"text":"對 它就不是違法的以你上一次的做法以後提案寫清楚你自己在的時候 本來只是可以我們有提出現場的意義這是我們的權利因為不符合程序所以這是我們的權利那主席說這樣的宣告也沒有違法所以你不要說它是違法"},{"start":30506.085,"end":30521.512,"text":"因為本案有權利啦 確實這樣做也沒有違法啦但是因為大家如果覺得說不就這個部分去增值我們讓全案能夠順利的被查通過 那我想這也是好事啦 好不好"},{"start":30521.972,"end":30542.121,"text":"那就不要這個部分就不用再爭執了好那是不是我們就此報告事項我們就做如下的決定那也謝謝翁曉林委員的那個體諒那我們本件就准予被查提報院會那接下來我們進行討論討論這個"},{"start":30546.957,"end":30572.269,"text":"我們現在進行討論事項報告事項已經處理完畢我們繼續進行討論事項按機關別先進行總統府的預算解凍案部分我們進行討論事項有關總統府預算解凍案部分討論事項第一至第五案總統府一四年度預算解凍案業經報告及詢答完畢並宣讀請問各位委員有異議"},{"start":30575.278,"end":30597.423,"text":"都沒有依均準與動之提報願會我們接著進行討論事項有關國安會部分有關國家安全會議之預算解凍案部分討論事項第6至第8案國家安全會議第114年度"},{"start":30599.073,"end":30620.884,"text":"預算解凍案業經報告及詢問完畢並宣讀請問各位委員有異議因為有委員對於第6至第8案提出異議 仍有意見所以討論事項國家安全會之預算解凍案做如下決議第6至第8案均另定其繼續處理"},{"start":30624.372,"end":30633.354,"text":"那大家有要補充嗎沒有好那本日會議議程進行到此本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":30665.742,"end":30666.143,"text":"盡量盡力"}]}},{"id":"16694","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16694","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eac04fde1d52825d8907d3830e66495180a12e9ca99aa835c068dfeaa47385a0595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-21","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-21T08:31:56+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-21T12:33:00+08:00","duration":14464,"影片長度":"04:01:04","委員發言時間":"08:31:56 - 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拟据报告提报愿会讨论事项一处理114年度中央政府总预算有关海洋委员会预算冻结专题报告专案报告案及八案讨论事项合并寻答海洋委员会主任委员管碧玲不当当产处理委员会主任委员林峰正中央选举委员会主"},{"start":2053.411,"end":2072.059,"text":"大陆委员会主任委员邱锤正、客家委员会主任委员谷秀飞报告委员王美惠等16人质询由不当党产处理委员会主任委员林峰正、大陆委员会主任委员邱锤正、客家委员会主任委员谷秀飞、中央选举委员会主任委员李金勇、海洋委员会主任委员管碧玲及相关人员及行政院主计总处公务预算处专门委员李毅柔答复说明"},{"start":2072.719,"end":2093.626,"text":"登记发言委员初步在场,则外区域均与发言完毕,询答结束。委员苏晓慧所提书面质询列入记录刊登公报,书面质询及未及答复部分,请相关机关于一周内另以书面答复并复制本会。主席宣告,本次会议质询时间循例并未减少,且仍是个别委员质询的需要,容许委员询答的时间左右延长,原此本次会议每位委员发言时间列入会议记录。"},{"start":2095.027,"end":2120.046,"text":"決議討論事項一所列八案均同意動之擬據報告提報院會二處理一百一十四年度中央政府總預算有關不當黨產處理文匯預算凍結專案報告案計議案決議本案同意動之擬據報告提報院會三處理審查一百一十四年度中央政府總預算有關中央選舉文匯預算凍結專案報告案計四案決議討論事項三關乎二案令定期繼續審查其餘個案均同意動之擬據報告提報院會"},{"start":2121.993,"end":2149.892,"text":"4.处理114年陆中央政府总预算有关大陆委员会预算冻结专案报告案及5案决议以上5案均同意动之女居报告提报愿会5.处理审查114年陆中央政府总预算有关客家委员会预算冻结专案报告书面报告案及7案决议以上7案均同意动之女居报告提报愿会5月14日秘密会议逆内政部函为114年陆中央政府总预算决议减送该部主管第三项决议2.预算冻结专案报告请查照案等4案"},{"start":2150.732,"end":2178.752,"text":"上午九時十二分至十時十分進行祕密會議決議以上四案均同意動之拟據報告提報用會報告事項一處理一百四十年度中央政府總預算有關內政部預算凍結書面報告案記十六案決定以上十六案書面報告均已送達預算得以動之拟據報告提報用會二邀請內政部部長率同所屬列席報告業務概況並被質詢報告事項即討論事項和兵巡大內政部部長劉思芳報告委員蘇巧慧等15人質詢由內政部部長劉思芳及相關人員答覆說明"},{"start":2179.752,"end":2207.677,"text":"決定一登基發言委員處部在場者外其餘均與發言完畢詢答結束二委員丁雪忠所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報三書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一周內另以書面答覆並複製本會討論事項一處理審查一百四次面錄中央政府總預算有關內政部預算凍結專案提報告書面報告案計三十八案決議討論事項一關乎三及關乎三十六案另定其繼續審查其餘個案均同意動之拟據報告提報院會宣讀完畢"},{"start":2210.657,"end":2227.943,"text":"謝謝 請問各位委員 上次會議議事錄有錯或遺漏之處沒有 好 謝謝 議事錄確定現在繼續進行本月議程報告事項 請宣讀邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況並被質詢 宣讀完畢現在介紹在場委員及列席官員委員部分 我們張志倫委員"},{"start":2236.243,"end":2259.758,"text":"王美惠委員蘇巧惠委員黃婕委員李柏宜委員官員部分我們大陸委員會主任委員邱隨正主委以及我們海峽交流基金會吳豐山董事長好接下來我們先請大陸委員會邱主任委員隨正進行業務報告有請"},{"start":2268.072,"end":2291.333,"text":"主席 各位委員 吳董事長 各位同仁 各位女士 各位先生 大家早安 大家好承蒙各位委員會的邀請報告本會業務推動情形 請提出口頭報告我們另有詳細的報告 請大家著參進行指教那在近期工作重點 有六個重點第一"},{"start":2292.514,"end":2315.595,"text":"慎處中共對台威脅維護國家主權及台灣整體利益今年以來中共持續加大對台灣的軍事侵擾二月發動聯合戰備警巡的評次創新高四月進行聯合演訓及雷霆海峽雷霆2025A軍演令中共與對台工作會議兩會"},{"start":2317.296,"end":2334.844,"text":"及反分裂國家法20周年座談會重申反毒、反干涉、觸動和救調威脅採取非和平手段及依法懲毒4月份更增設所謂台獨打手幫凶舉報專線對台加強恫嚇同時也強調推動"},{"start":2340.567,"end":2355.988,"text":"兩岸各項的領域的交流企圖對台統戰滲透在國際場合中共動員親中的國家公開宣稱支持一中原則和平統一面對中共對台施加壓力"},{"start":2358.203,"end":2363.209,"text":"政府秉持著四個堅持與四個不變積極落實賴總統所揭示國安統戰威脅17項因應策略堅定地維護國家主權及台灣整體利益"},{"start":2371.363,"end":2386.433,"text":"第二 強化兩岸經貿風險管控推動健康有序對等交流進行國際地緣政治變化快速美中戰略競爭加劇及中國大陸下行對中國大陸經濟及兩岸經貿帶來新的挑戰本會秉持持續關注國際中國大陸經濟及兩岸經貿的情勢變化加強兩岸經貿交流風險管控"},{"start":2402.764,"end":2428.405,"text":"經貿政策並因應台商的需求提供相關的資訊及諮詢服務在不涉及政治前提下持續推動健康有序互惠對等的兩岸經貿交流為恢復兩岸觀光旅遊我方台旅會已正式向陸方海旅會提出溝通要求希望陸方盡速回應另依據旅運的需求我們也適時"},{"start":2430.714,"end":2444.854,"text":"增加了小山東客運航班數第三捍衛兩岸單一戶籍身份制度以確保人員往來交流次序兩岸單一戶籍"},{"start":2446.754,"end":2465.967,"text":"不僅在各自的法令有所明定更是幾十年來雙方建立起重要的交流規範與秩序的原則兩岸條例尊重國人對身份的選擇但不允許國人兼具兩岸雙重身份"},{"start":2467.047,"end":2494.912,"text":"堅持兩岸身份單一是保護國家安全確保台灣生存發展及兩岸人員往來管理的核心關鍵本會將持續向國人宣導正確的資訊並針對現職軍公教人員宣導拒絕及清查不得載入涉及領用中共護照申領中共身份證、定居證及居住證等身份證券"},{"start":2496.745,"end":2511.582,"text":"如此才能捍衛兩岸單一戶籍制度維護雙方人員往來的交流次序四 我們推出陸方落實協議執行以提高國人賦入風險的意識"},{"start":2514.585,"end":2537.563,"text":"本會自去年1月1日起,迄今4月30日以接獲民眾附入遭扣押、留置或盤查陳情的案件計102件其中帶入失聯或已遭陸方限制人身自由有89件遭陸方留置盤查有13件"},{"start":2539.5,"end":2564.282,"text":"另為提高國人附入安全風險意識本會持續提醒國人附入注意事項並鼓勵登陸國人附入港澳登陸系統以利政府及時提供協處五推動各級學校對中試讀增進我學子兩岸情勢之能為提升我青年學子"},{"start":2565.882,"end":2586.24,"text":"對國際兩岸議題及中國大陸情勢現況的了解與知能本會在遵截預算的情況下仍然持續辦理國內學生營隊活動補助大學開設課程充實本會官網台深專區的資訊並持續透過多元管道適時提醒"},{"start":2587.895,"end":2610.449,"text":"審慎附路、就學、交流可能面對的風險與挑戰以保障我學子的安全六、觀測港澳情勢動能保障國人安全中共藉由國安法制融合策略與愛國者治理加深對港澳的掌控在各領域廣設國安紅線限縮自由人權"},{"start":2615.987,"end":2645.205,"text":"我們會密註觀測港澳的情勢持續進行風險管控並公布前往或過境港澳的注意事項提醒國人注意赴港澳的風險同時我們依據行政院所屬各機關人員赴港澳注意事項及國人在港澳緊按救助時事要點強化公務機密以及人身安全的保障在未來的工作有四個重點"},{"start":2645.967,"end":2670.752,"text":"第一 密駐中共對台動向堅定維護台海和平穩定當前中國大陸經濟受到美國關稅戰影響持續低迷社會火山民怨累積以及全球情勢複雜多變台美中互動發展等均可能影響中共對台政策及兩岸關係走向"},{"start":2672.093,"end":2691.968,"text":"本會將持續關注中國大陸的政經情勢中共對台動向及區域以及國際區域變化審慎評估及因應並反制中共對台統戰滲透及認知作戰強化全社會防衛韌性堅定維護台海和平穩定以及台灣民眾福祉二 關注國際經貿情勢審慎應對中共對台經貿作為"},{"start":2701.009,"end":2714.188,"text":"國際經貿局勢變化牽動兩岸關係發展中共操作軟硬拉打兩手策略持續擴大對台融合發展措施要求台商擴大投資"},{"start":2715.495,"end":2732.662,"text":"又吸台灣的人才竊取關鍵技術本會將本於強本固台風險管理的原則就兩岸經貿所涉及的人流物流金流技術進行必要的調整以強化台灣經濟安全應對中共對台經貿統戰及脅迫並基於"},{"start":2738.044,"end":2747.077,"text":"台灣優先立足台灣佈局全球的經貿戰略就台灣與中國大陸的經貿關係進行策略性的結構調整"},{"start":2748.689,"end":2776.843,"text":"三強化兩岸交流管理機制確保國家安全利益政府推動兩岸健康有序的交流立場不變本會將持續本於去統戰化去風險化的原則審查及管理相關的交流避免受中共滲透分化干預等衍生國安風險對於具有統戰性質的交流活動政府都會嚴格"},{"start":2779.524,"end":2803.974,"text":"也會依照兩岸的情勢發展變化納入審查考量滾動調整及強化中國大陸人民來台的風險管理機制另將會同相關機關共同研議公職人員附路交流的揭露制度以確保附路交流資訊公開化、透明化向國人負責以維護國家安全及整體利益"},{"start":2806.107,"end":2818.693,"text":"健全港澳交流管理規範維護國家安全及民眾福祉鑑於近年來港澳的情勢快速發展本會持續檢視港澳相關的法規"},{"start":2821.065,"end":2844.028,"text":"安全管理規範本會課陣研議對於港澳居民居留定居制度中增列長期居留的相關規定以增加國安觀察期以確保國家安全及社會的長治久安同時也會針對中共混淆國人對國家認同之威脅就國人"},{"start":2845.046,"end":2867.142,"text":"同胞申請中國大陸涉及身份認定的各種證件進行必要的宣導、清查及管理捷運,捍衛國家主權維持自由民主的生活方式及堅決反對台灣被中共併吞是台灣社會最大的共識政府將積極落實國安統戰威脅17項的因應策略"},{"start":2872.97,"end":2898.249,"text":"我們靠實力來達成和平的目標不會改變也同時呼籲陸方正視兩岸互不隸屬的現狀與事實以交流取代圍堵以對話取代對抗務實理性處理兩岸關係與我方共同承擔維護台海以及區域和平的責任以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝大家"},{"start":2901.872,"end":2918.548,"text":"好謝謝我們邱隨勝主委的報告再來有關海峽兩岸交流基金會的部分這我們尋往歷這我們吳豐昇董事長是來做這個打招呼但是報告的部分我們可以由副秘書長還是由董事長你要親自報告嗎這個我們可以由副"},{"start":2920.578,"end":2932.382,"text":"那我們就有請吳董事長跟副秘書長請一併好不好謝謝主席、各位委員、魏巍、邱主任委員、各位女士、各位先生海基會的職責依照海基會的組織章程就有兩句話一個是說政府委託"},{"start":2948.863,"end":2961.252,"text":"處理兩岸人民交流所衍生的事務另外一句話叫並磨增進兩岸人民福祉那麼簡單的講就是交流跟對話那麼有關對話的部分從2016年開始因為對岸認為我國沒有接受九二共識"},{"start":2979.048,"end":2990.052,"text":"所以就片面中斷到今天第九年對話依然中斷我今天可以跟各位報告的是對話的管道中斷但是傳話的管道暢通這些傳話的人士有的是台商"},{"start":3008.908,"end":3033.973,"text":"有的是兩岸的專家學者有一部分是已經退休的我國政府以前跟兩岸事務有關的高官我對他們非常感謝因為和平"},{"start":3035.478,"end":3064.682,"text":"交流對話絕對是兩岸共同的最高的福祉所以我對於有朝一日可以恢復對話我保持審慎的樂觀那至於交流的部分從未中斷兩岸政府雖然不好但是人們要結婚的照樣結婚要賺錢的照樣賺錢所以交流事務"},{"start":3066.608,"end":3093.302,"text":"從來沒有中斷在過去三十二年來海基位處理過八百七十八萬多件因為教育所產生的事物那去年呢就多達三十萬四千多件那這一部分事物非常繁瑣那麼依照海基位的章程"},{"start":3095.014,"end":3118.134,"text":"本會的會內的事務是由秘書長綜合處理羅秘書長接受日本政府的邀請到日本去訪問事前也跟主席報告過主席也同意由代行秘書長職務的李寶文來報告"},{"start":3122.045,"end":3146.747,"text":"我現在可以不可以請主席 或者退下去以後報告可以的 謝謝我們吳鳳山董事長由於選往例啦 基本上這個備詢的部分跟報告的部分其實是由秘書處來負責好 這我想大家都知道那我們董事長願意說說兩句好事各位指名要我答覆 我就規規矩矩上來答覆 謝謝好 那我們謝謝吳董事長那麼剩下的報告部分我們請這個李寶文副秘書長進行補充說明 謝謝"},{"start":3149.828,"end":3171.296,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士各位先生大家好那今天呈邀前來報告海基會業務概況非常的榮幸海基會受政府授權與委託處理兩岸人民往來相關事務保障民眾權益以上僅就去年113年度迄今業務執行相關情形則要提出報告"},{"start":3172.509,"end":3194.492,"text":"首先第一點 協處兩岸人身安全緊急事件對於國人在中國大陸發生各類人身緊急安全事件本會視案情提供諮詢與緊急應處建議必要時含情海協會協處或洽請各地台商協會就近提供協助因應本年度預算遭到三檢"},{"start":3195.433,"end":3214.064,"text":"自本年3月10日起紧急服务专线服务时间从24小时调整为每日上午8点30分至下午8点30分共计12小时而去年迄今发生了金门0214大陆无名船舶翻覆事件"},{"start":3214.764,"end":3229.578,"text":"以及澎湖基大進滿八十八號遭陸方留置案等兩岸漁事糾紛漁船碰撞以及豎起船難救助事件本會受主管機關主託通報陸方轉資加暑並協助處理後續事宜"},{"start":3234.5,"end":3263.962,"text":"同时也欲请陆方加强约制所属渔船勿再进入我方东沙环礁海域违法进行采捕今年中国大陆持续增修国安相关法令发布惩治台独22条意见严重威胁国人附陆之人身安全失联人数亦有增多迹象本会接获澄清之后积极协处寻人并配合政府政策加强宣导附陆风险"},{"start":3264.98,"end":3280.56,"text":"第二强化服务量能派员进驻金门马祖去年七月以及十月本会派员分别进驻金门与马祖的行政协调中心在地协处涉及两岸小三通衍生的相关事务"},{"start":3281.201,"end":3303.955,"text":"具体工作成果包含协储经小三通返台就医之紧急医疗后送事件以及小三通复航后陈姓陆客在金门旅游期间突发心肌梗塞的猝死事件以及马祖籍渔船蔡姓大陆船员意外落海亡故等善后事宜"},{"start":3305.37,"end":3319.998,"text":"第三,安排滞留大陆国人返台,对于离病或经济困顿长期滞留中国大陆之国人,若有返台意愿且身体健康状况符合适行条件。"},{"start":3321.363,"end":3335.34,"text":"本會與台商協會共同協助其返台也與台灣之民政、社政、醫療機關溝通協調就醫與後續收容事宜本年1月至4月協處置入國人返台共計34名"},{"start":3337.554,"end":3355.9,"text":"第四關懷與協助大陸台商子女學校學生自92年迄今本會與陸委會教育部共同推動探索台灣之美夏令營活動以及其他各式參訪活動增進大陸台商子女對家鄉的認識"},{"start":3357.14,"end":3373.827,"text":"為了擴大服務範疇113年首度嘗試辦理台商子女東令營的活動114年首度為國中高中階段的學子舉辦台商子女探索營那為了因應本會預算遭到刪減"},{"start":3374.887,"end":3395.461,"text":"本年度將停辦台商子女夏令營活動並調整與台商子女的互動方式例如本年3月30日羅文嘉秘書長及出席東晚台校返台舉辦之九天八夜環島自行車騎行活動也參與師生一行的騎跑活動以及晚餐活動"},{"start":3396.562,"end":3411.939,"text":"本会也延续第14年鼓励在中国大陆台商子女学校就读之国人子女持续努力向学为三所台校每个应届毕业班级的优秀毕业生每班一人颁赠奖学金及奖状"},{"start":3413.154,"end":3435.226,"text":"第五加強互動聯繫協助台商永續經營國際情勢兩岸關係與中國大陸投資環境惡化等因素都對大陸台商造成衝擊本會持續關切台商投資經營情況與遭遇到的困難為本年度預算遭到刪減因此投資台灣"},{"start":3436.687,"end":3446.444,"text":"參訪活動以及兩岸經貿講座台商諮詢日等相關活動有作相對應的刪減或某程度的停辦第六"},{"start":3447.729,"end":3463.437,"text":"韓信調整台商三節活動的規模與形態本年2月3日舉辦大陸台商春節聯誼活動邀請大陸台商與世界台商政府相關部會與工商團體代表等參與增進互動賴總統並親自出席與主持新春團拜"},{"start":3467.879,"end":3485.769,"text":"端午節以及中秋節活動本會將改裁小規模形式辦理讓台商參加本會活動更加彈性更加便利更加沒有壓力第七點因應陸方的作為協助降低對國人權益的影響"},{"start":3486.71,"end":3501.644,"text":"自去年以來,陸方藉此不履行兩岸共打協議,選擇性向我方通報相關訊息,致使國人在路遺遭公安機關拘留或逮捕的情況,家屬皆未能接獲正式的通知,而查證無門。"},{"start":3502.625,"end":3521.44,"text":"例如社會關注的彰化賢州罵案以及一貫道四會盜親遭陸方限制人身自由等案本會接獲澄清後立即致函陸方促請保障當事人以及家屬的權益並函請相關機關各自循協議管道協處"},{"start":3522.921,"end":3550.822,"text":"另外减轻家属忧心本会视情况恰请各地台商协会协助核实讯息协助家属送零用金以及预含衣物等相关人道安排第八点持续办理两岸文书查验证及文书送达两岸公证书使用查证协议建立两岸文书制度化查验证机制是奠定两岸交流秩序的基本"},{"start":3551.522,"end":3576.844,"text":"基礎迄今运作顺畅此外海基会受政府嘱托办理两岸司法文书送达以保障两岸人民的权益第九协储陆配注销大陆户籍配合移民署的除籍专案本会自今年四月以来不论服务柜台或法律服务专线民众来会申办文书验证咨询办理程序"},{"start":3577.384,"end":3597.339,"text":"或來電詢問相關事宜的案件量均明顯增多本會除及時將民眾意見與建議向主管機關反映外並緊急動員人力加開服務專線以及服務櫃台也同時在官網、臉書專頁及相關平台上提供相關資訊給陸配朋友參考"},{"start":3600.842,"end":3627.141,"text":"部分人士因无有效入境大陆的证件比如说台胞症于其无法顺利申办或大通症于其遗失等等情况需要透过本会协调大陆有关部门航空公司等单位的协处以顺利入境大陆办理注销户籍本会自本年4月1日至5月15日总共协处73案类似的案件"},{"start":3628.882,"end":3646.878,"text":"10.提升研析量能广纳多元观点国际政治格局变化快速本会扩大邀请学者专家探讨两岸关系重大议题研析情势发展并增加相关的研习活动汇整各方意见以提供政府决策参考"},{"start":3647.719,"end":3661.807,"text":"第十一接待各界訪兵增進兩岸事務認識為增進各界對兩岸事務的認識本會主動致函國內各大專院校鼓勵各界組團參訪海基會113年1月至114年5月15日共計接待25團766人次訪兵的反應皆為良好"},{"start":3671.312,"end":3680.618,"text":"兩岸關係持續受到國際社會高度關注駐台使節國內外專家學者陸續來會參訪就兩岸及區域情勢等相關議題交流意見本會皆詳加說明為台灣爭取國際支持"},{"start":3687.663,"end":3706.914,"text":"最後本會受政府委託授權處理兩岸人民往來相關事務雖然陸方片面中斷兩岸制度化溝通聯繫管道本會仍依據兩岸相關協議持續就個案去函海協會及中國大陸相關部門為民眾提供必要協助"},{"start":3708.275,"end":3730.297,"text":"賴總統在就職演說國慶文告中皆多次強調推動兩岸對等健康有序的交流是我們不變的承諾這也是本會執行工作的方向與目標為了促進兩岸雙向對等健康有序的交流本會也將持續精進服務功能保障民眾的權益以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":3731.834,"end":3760.87,"text":"好 我們謝謝李副秘書長的報告現在進行詢答委員諮詢前 遠利做幾點宣告第一 每位委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘必要時得延長1分鐘非本會委員5分鐘我們上午10點30分截止發言登記這個臨時提案部分截止提出時間為11點與本會委員詢問完畢後處理請問各位同仁有沒有意見沒有好 那我們就照這樣處理好 謝謝那現在進行詢答我們請登記第一位的蘇巧慧委員發言"},{"start":3770.441,"end":3773.175,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請邱主委邱主委有請"},{"start":3778.308,"end":3807.291,"text":"主委好主委好主委我想跟你討論一下最近發生的事情就是近期在台北高雄都有發生中國直播組在校園附近開直播並且長時間拍攝學生的狀態如果你在抖音上面搜尋台灣小學生我們打這五個字下去其實會有很多東西跳出來你看這個最後面一個就是打了這個關鍵字以後直接在app上面抖音上面可以出現的狀況那其他是媒體已經披露的"},{"start":3807.891,"end":3834.201,"text":"這可以說是相當的多而且最重要的是小朋友都沒有受到馬賽克的保護所以如果你要辨識身份如果你有心人士要辨識身份可以說是非常容易那甚至這些直播不只在學校附近還跟著孩子就直接到了安親班這樣的狀況請問陸委會你這邊有掌握嗎這是單一的人士單一定點嗎還是一個什麼狀況數量大概有多少你們有了解了嗎"},{"start":3835.807,"end":3850.303,"text":"謝謝委員我想只有兩個層面第一個是這個抖音網路平台的問題第二個就是這個拍攝的這個活動在學校周遭我先問你大概數量有多少你有掌握了嗎"},{"start":3850.903,"end":3855.728,"text":"我們遇到有這些應該有跟你反應過了有 我們就積極反應給我們的教育部還有我們的治安單位要查查以保護學生校園的安寧數量我們是因為我們"},{"start":3868.4,"end":3896.343,"text":"至少不是單一事件嘛對不對絕對不是啦到處都有了嘛也不是單一個人嘛因為出現在非常多的頻道上面這應該陸委會也有掌握吧沒有錯吧對我們有掌握而且立即查辦所以不是單一事件不是單一人事甚至不是抖音上面的單一頻道那這樣的話請問涉案人士的身份你們有掌握了嗎他大概都是什麼樣子的人知道了嗎"},{"start":3897.762,"end":3922.275,"text":"如果同仁比較清楚可以同仁回答沒有關係我想我們都有給治安單位那這個比較完整的調查報告應該要由治安單位來回覆好那就我們這邊掌握到的資料其實第一個的話在高雄的部分已經查查看到第一個這個拍攝的狀況是這個拍攝的女生是從中國來的來台已經二十多年已經取得身份證了"},{"start":3922.995,"end":3928.74,"text":"那因為呢看起來他就是一個生活的分享啊單純開直播賣生活雜貨分享生活所以警方已經到女子家中訪查已經給他口頭勸告了嘛因為現在也還不知道是什麼狀況那另外台北的案件是許淑華議員已經接獲消息後報案了所以調查中"},{"start":3942.253,"end":3962.191,"text":"沒有錯陸委會主委您剛剛的反應是這個事件當中現在在處理的程序也就是說因為他也只是在拍影像拍直播對他現在第一個他有可能狀況是只要他沒有經過家長的同意拍攝未成年人他基本上就是觸犯個資了嘛"},{"start":3963.092,"end":3987.011,"text":"甚至是兒少法所以他有觸法的嫌疑所以如果是單純的這樣的事件確實應該是要由警方來調查沒有錯主委剛剛的回答是對的所以現在在這個階段其實高雄也是警方介入台北的話也是議員已經去跟警方系統報備了嘛報案了嘛好可是我現在就是進入到你看我的PPT上面的第二層次甚至第三層次"},{"start":3988.012,"end":4002.296,"text":"主委我要提醒如果拍攝者是中國人目前也不是只有單一頻道那他的身份很顯然比較敏感啊那我們是不是要開始有進一步的了解如果這麼數量是多的的話那在這個短時間內出現這麼多的拍攝學校周圍的兒童那他是不是有什麼目的"},{"start":4010.419,"end":4032.95,"text":"那尤其為什麼又是學校學校如果根據我們的災害防救體系的話它其實是我們的避難收容場所所以大量的直播攝影這會不會又是另外一個國安疑慮呢所以我覺得陸委會如果有這個敏感度的話去了解這個事件我想應該是非常合理的主委你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":4033.65,"end":4059.862,"text":"謝謝委員 我們也是跟委員一樣的想法跟做法我們除了提供給教育部、治安單位了解對學生、兒少的這個侵犯對 我們現在的這個層次嘛 個案嘛 對啊因為每個學校它扮演著重要的角色而且很多都是抄中國大陸口音那當然有些說是陸配我們也會跟陸配網紅 我們熟識的我們呼籲他們不要"},{"start":4062.003,"end":4075.493,"text":"這個影響兒少的相關法規或影響校園安寧你這樣的去拍他們那學生師生都會心生恐懼所以你跟他討論的其實沒有講到什麼中國怎麼樣中共怎麼樣你其實就是說你這樣會打擾到小朋友喔而且是會有妨礙個資法兒少法你也是這樣講而已嘛對不對此外我們都有把相關的這個影片傳給我們的安全單位好去查查"},{"start":4086.601,"end":4102.226,"text":"主委其實我今天用這個例子不但是跟您再次的在質詢台與備詢台之間提供這樣的消息並且要求陸委會提供提高敏感度之外其實我也必須要說用這個例子我們可以看得到其實中國"},{"start":4103.126,"end":4131.453,"text":"中共如果現在有系統有新的要來蒐集台灣的各種資訊用各種方法來蒐集各種資訊其實這個就是可以是一個例子因為你其實它這個有統戰嗎你不知道啊它是情收嗎你知道嗎你也不知道啊它有下指令叫這一些特定網紅從日常的直播改為去蒐集台灣的情資嗎可能甚至也沒有喔"},{"start":4132.353,"end":4136.004,"text":"他沒有 他不需要下指令他只要做一個動作就好他只要餵流量"},{"start":4137.159,"end":4163.458,"text":"他只要讓拍攝這種影片類型的人的流量可以突然竄高那這些網紅 這些網路的使用者他就說 唉唷 最近口耳相傳之間拍攝某一種類型就好像提高網路流量欸那就可以幫我帶貨啊他根本不用接收指令他就只要用流量的部分就可以竄起來這就是手法啊 對不對所以中國會這樣做那我們有什麼反制的動作嗎"},{"start":4166.994,"end":4195.499,"text":"我想我們一定要加強校園安全的維護那像這樣的一種侵入式的這種拍攝我想很多學校都反映學生都很惶恐那剛剛委員講了好幾個層次的國家安全每個層次我們都要全面的維護它對於不管是國家安全的層次對於國家重要基礎設施的維護以及它有可能是為了更施力"},{"start":4195.959,"end":4218.338,"text":"就是帶流量 種種的那我想這是必要進行比較大規模的我的意思其實在這裡剛剛這樣一系列的討論下來就是說中國的手法其實它不斷的翻新它甚至不用用跟你講國家民族大義我要統一台灣它只要給你餵流量它就可以得到它想要的政治目的了"},{"start":4218.678,"end":4246.378,"text":"那反過來我們其實也應該可以有多種不同的方式來告訴人民應該要怎麼保護自己比如說如果在這邊你要跟他說這個就是中國網紅在幫中國刺探情報大家可能覺得說蛤 是嗎好像一時間沒有辦法接受可是反過來你告訴這些家長說你如果沒有在看到這種可疑人士拍攝孩子的時候"},{"start":4247.299,"end":4263.612,"text":"你把他制止而且大家守望相助的互相看互相制止你的孩子就有可能是為馬賽克的照片沒有馬賽克的照片流傳在網路上面你的孩子的安全可能受到威脅我覺得所有的家長一定會警惕啊是"},{"start":4265.794,"end":4283.326,"text":"所有的家長一定會警惕啊網紅可以為了流量要賣東西而做出有政治目的的狀況其實台灣人民也可以用各種的方式學習保護自己不只是保護國家的安全也是保護個人的安全"},{"start":4283.826,"end":4290.39,"text":"我覺得陸委會的策略方式和跟人民的溝通狀況不但應該更積極而且要更多元這是我今天質詢的目的不曉得主委認同嗎非常感謝委員的提醒我們會來全力朝這個方向來做不過我也跟委員報告我覺得在台灣生活的大部分的陸配網紅都是合法的而且他甚至不知道他做這件事情有什麼狀況"},{"start":4311.721,"end":4321.149,"text":"不過每一個個案都很重要我們都會一一來查處你甚至對如果主委提醒的很對所以如果在這樣的狀況下甚至我們應該讓這一些使用網路的網紅們了解說啊你這個流量突然變高了可能是因為有什麼狀況你要小心喔讓他們也有這個知識因為他們可能也不想做這件事情啊是"},{"start":4334.241,"end":4354.377,"text":"對不對所以我覺得這有好幾個層次的部分所以我再次的提醒我的結論是陸委會要跟全國民眾不分是哪裡來的不分是在這裡住多久的都應該要有各種多元不同的資訊傳遞保護國家以及個人的安全這是我今天質詢的主旨這樣謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝 謝謝蘇喬惠委員下一位我們請張志倫委員質詢"},{"start":4369.093,"end":4373.125,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早有請邱主委邱主委有請"},{"start":4379.628,"end":4400.956,"text":"政委好好主委好那今天是有關於陸委會跟海基會的質詢那首先我們其實賴清德總統就職520港版一周年那也很感謝主委這一年來的辛苦那其實人民最重視的就是現在不管是兩岸關係台灣的國際情勢以及關稅等等的相關問題所以當然賴清德總統"},{"start":4401.676,"end":4413.245,"text":"日值滿一年的就職演說我們都非常重視那我相信主委應該有全程聽完賴清德就職週年的談話那我想要請教主委這邊請問賴清德520滿週年的這個演講針對兩岸的論述是什麼可不可以請主委稍微簡單說明一下"},{"start":4420.511,"end":4441.87,"text":"我想520前夕他也接受很多媒體的採訪那就就職演說那一天就職演說的內容那個週年的談話那我們陸委會正在跟各部會積極的在落實17項國安威脅的因應策略"},{"start":4442.691,"end":4461.45,"text":"那這對我們來說是現在重中之重的事那我們不管是研修相關的這些法律法治的作業或者是積極的強化我們的整個這個管理機制我們都在"},{"start":4463.352,"end":4486.565,"text":"強化同時也積極的在宣導如何未來的交流能夠回歸專業化單純化去風險化去統戰化這個都是我們努力的方向那也謝謝委員當然總統在答覆記者的時候也有提到只要對等尊嚴台灣樂意與中國大陸進行"},{"start":4489.932,"end":4511.639,"text":"交流合作我們一直長期就是說在對等尊嚴兩岸可以進行健康有序的對話與交流這些承諾我們沒有改變好謝謝主委可是不好意思您的看法跟我手上拿到這一份資料完全不一致其實賴清德總統在520的就職演說針對兩岸的問題是隻字未提"},{"start":4515.62,"end":4535.692,"text":"所以這點我必須要跟主委報告所以現在很多國人都在關心我覺得台灣社會以及台灣民眾以及我們國際友人希望看到的是賴清澤總統在520就職演說的時候他對兩岸的關係他的見解是什麼而不是因為這個是非常重要其他人不一定會看賴清澤總統在其他內容的一些說明"},{"start":4536.312,"end":4559.25,"text":"所以在這邊很多專家寫者有提出來相關的問題是不是賴清德總統他是想要改變現狀就是他過去不管是這個蔡英文總統或以德輝總統他們的想法其實賴清德是想要改變的那第二個有很多人在講說很多專家寫者講說是不是賴清德總統有受到國外的一些壓力說請他在這個就職演說的時候不要去講這樣的內容"},{"start":4560.271,"end":4583.918,"text":"那就你這邊身為這個陸委會的主委你一定有給他相關的建議那你給他什麼樣的建議他為何在520就職演說的時候對兩岸關係置之未提是不是可以請你再強加說明一下是 跟委員報告反而跟委員所說的改變現狀剛好是完全不一樣我們反而是要堅定的維護台海和平穩定的現狀"},{"start":4585.658,"end":4604.452,"text":"那我們在過去已經強調所以艾總統有沒有接受到國外的指示比如美國的指示因為現在大家知道美國跟中國的關稅已經談下來了現在美國只有跟兩個國家談好關稅政策一個是英國 一個是中國那是不是因為這樣子有受到美國的壓力請主委回答"},{"start":4605.453,"end":4615.786,"text":"委員的說法我是沒有 我們入委會內啦 我們是沒有感受到啦那你們當時有提說請總統不要對兩岸發聲 提出看法嗎在總統就職演說的時候 你們有沒有提供相關的資料給總統那他最後是選擇不談論相關的議題嗎"},{"start":4625.958,"end":4651.717,"text":"我要問這個就是我剛有提到如果總統在五二零就職演說知識未提如何讓我們的友國讓我們台灣人民了解這個我們的台灣未來的走向到底是什麼方向我想委員剛剛有說他並不是知識未提那他提了什麼十七項國安的這個因應策略的落實他沒有在就職演說的週年提這段話"},{"start":4654.063,"end":4660.425,"text":"這個我覺得他在回答記者有提到了之前接受媒體採訪也有非常完整的這個兩岸的這個思考跟架構而且從去年520以來都"},{"start":4679.349,"end":4708.007,"text":"都 這個是很完整的 越來越完整所以好 那我再簡單請教主委所以您針對賴清德總統在520就職周年談話 隻字未提兩岸關係沒有隻字未提 是帶過去的那提了什麼 提了什麼這裡面就是沒有提啊就六十四七項的國安立政令他沒有寫在裡面啊 主委這個白紙黑字我們一字一句都有看 都是沒有提所以您認為他這樣的說法您是 您身為幕僚也身為幕委會的主委您是覺得認同的還是覺得應該他未來要再多加敘述"},{"start":4709.278,"end":4733.366,"text":"我想我們國家因應國內外的局勢相當多的問題我想兩岸的問題他過去已經談論很多那也蠻完整的具體架構大家也都很清楚那我想我們尊重他對於議題的選擇不過就兩岸的重點我想我們國人都很關注我們"},{"start":4735.495,"end":4762.817,"text":"我們整個國安團隊也都很關注好 謝謝主委那我希望說未來這些事情我還是我要重申針對我們國際的友人以及我們台灣的國人兩岸關係以及和平穩定我覺得對台灣國人很重要那我們希望說既然總統選擇的沒有知識未提我也希望說未來我們陸委會這邊一定要提供正確我相信是正確的資訊以及到底要不要提由總統自己來做決定好"},{"start":4763.297,"end":4787.832,"text":"第二個我想要請教去年520到現在滿一周年請問主委對兩岸的關係認為這一年是更好還是更不好以及我們過去一年兩岸我們所謂官方的溝通跟非官方的溝通不管是我們陸委會跟海基會我們的溝通的層級到哪裡針對司法互助我覺得人民最重要的是司法互助兩岸共打犯罪以及最重要的詐騙問題"},{"start":4789.153,"end":4804.705,"text":"我們台灣人最重視的這些問題我們陸委會跟海救已經過了一年了所以我想要請主委是不是簡單說明一下這些東西現在是不是有在進行還是現在因為兩岸是這個完全沒辦法溝通的情況下沒有辦法進行這樣的事情請主委回答"},{"start":4805.558,"end":4822.235,"text":"好 謝謝 我想兩岸關係的互動是雙方共同的責任那也許大家會覺得最近兩岸關係緊張這是我下一個問題海海的不安但是我要強調這個都是由於中國大陸對於我們"},{"start":4824.597,"end":4843.169,"text":"複合性的施壓而且步步進逼極限施壓不管是軍機間擾台外交打壓經濟脅迫社會滲透法律戰以及一連串的認知作戰灰色地帶侵擾滲透分化無所不在無口不入這些所造成對"},{"start":4844.19,"end":4862.145,"text":"整個區域跟台海不安以及整體兩岸關係緊張的根本因素主委好像沒有回答我的問題所以當然本席認為也是我們一定台灣一定要捍衛國家主權維持自由民主的生活方式所以下一題就是我要請教主委就是針對國人"},{"start":4863.106,"end":4882.297,"text":"但我們都想要兩岸要和平不要發生戰爭可是根據外交事務的期刊Foreign Affairs以及最近美國有開一個這個公聽會針對2027年這個有可能大陸會武力犯台那武力犯台的方式可能會第一個登陸台灣第二個或者是Blockade就是封鎖台灣或是算是經濟上"},{"start":4883.978,"end":4910.395,"text":"經濟上或者是這個網路上的攻擊對這些東西因為不好意思在總統在就職演說沒有提到相關任何的內容請問列委會這邊有沒有跟總統討論或是跟國安單位討論如果能講就可以講如何防範降低風險以及降低國人對這個兩岸緊張情勢升溫的風險的這個考量謝謝委員長我想我們還是本於初衷在對等尊嚴是"},{"start":4911.696,"end":4936.626,"text":"能夠跟中國大陸來進行對話交流一直是我們兩岸政策的主軸沒有改變我們也希望對岸能夠正視中華民國存在的客觀事實不時面對兩岸問題在對等尊嚴我們來恢復各種有意義的交流讓兩岸關係能夠良性互動"},{"start":4937.554,"end":4964.51,"text":"那同時面對中國大陸的極限施壓我們雖然對和平是堅持的總統也說也說了很多這方面我們如何維護我們的國家安全我們的社會安定人民的福祉還是要靠我們自己就是落實總統所揭示的和平四大支柱行動方案也就是我們現在在全面落實14項的因應策略"},{"start":4964.83,"end":4982.395,"text":"好謝謝主委沒錯台灣是要保護自己沒錯那我也其實為什麼今天會問這麼多問題其實台灣不只要靠自己也要靠國際社會上比如說我們的鄰國或是美國相關歐洲相關的協助來保護台灣所以是這點我是非常認同主委那最後我是不是可以請這個我們這個海基會進來的吳董事長謝謝吳董事長"},{"start":4995.131,"end":5022.647,"text":"好吳董事長謝謝吳董事長剛剛就是這一年來對這個海基會的這個協助跟奉獻那剛剛有聽到你大概的說明其實你也講得非常清楚其實現在是對話是完全的這個中斷那這個交流其實是一直不斷的在努力還在繼續努力的部分那剛剛你在講對話的部分你用四個字來形容叫做審慎樂觀"},{"start":5024.068,"end":5039.62,"text":"好那就是說是不是說本席這邊可以請你簡單除了審慎樂觀以外那未來兩岸的對話除了審慎樂觀以外有沒有其他你這邊想要來講的部分是不是可以請你簡單除了審慎樂觀以外再給我們一些其他的建議我的看法是這樣子啊就中華民國而言和平絕對是我們這個國家最核心的利益"},{"start":5054.963,"end":5075.914,"text":"可是對中華人民共和國難道不是嗎戰爭真的是沒有贏家那麼對岸現在內政問題焦頭爛額一個友善的台灣對他比較好還是一個敵對的台灣對他比較好"},{"start":5083.089,"end":5109.37,"text":"那麼在過去幾年來台海和平航行已經變成舉世關切的共同問題所以我認為北京的領導人只要真正的考慮他們的國家利益他們應該還是希望和平我特別注意到"},{"start":5111.529,"end":5133.378,"text":"現在對岸的領導人習近平主席跟我們賴總統之間其實很難得有一個交集兩個人都公開講希望兩岸和平發展這是歷史的機遇我的審慎的管將來好 董事長結束了嗎好 謝謝董事長"},{"start":5140.56,"end":5145.104,"text":"好 謝謝張志倫委員的諮詢下一位我們請王美惠委員諮詢主席我們請邱子維邱子維有請"},{"start":5162.376,"end":5183.711,"text":"黃委員 早上好 主委 早上主委 在最近的時候我們教育部補充有說我們國際的交流不一定要限制於中國但是在這個規定當中 我們兩岸交流一定要有健康"},{"start":5187.382,"end":5194.449,"text":"覺得好感,才可以有這個交流,但是中國的政府根本沒有政策,沒有健康,我們要如何去有交流在這個規定當中,我們海峽論壇"},{"start":5205.216,"end":5213.358,"text":"因有利空空丟你半個現在已經16年了你們以前是說我們不要去參加但是最近你們是常常政府說不要去喔這是強烈的說不要去不要因尊因奇來主委你解說現在的轉變是怎樣"},{"start":5234.049,"end":5255.885,"text":"跟委員報告,謝謝委員的質詢,這有關於海峽論壇那麼我們觀察那麼久,海峽論壇是中國大陸對台統戰的一個平台用來展現它對台統戰的成果,是一種大交流、大合作的一個大平台每次參加的人數都非常的多"},{"start":5257.166,"end":5282.618,"text":"不過都在中國大陸設定的整個統戰活動裡面去展現它統戰的成果這個對我們國人負責去參加這個統戰平台我們是採取一種勸阻不要去所以我們中央官員是完全禁止那地方官員呢地方政府呢我們也評估很多因為我們過去就說評估很多阿公會去那裡幹啦"},{"start":5286.5,"end":5311.014,"text":"因為我們有下鄉去跟地方政府溝通有些地方政府跟我說過去我們那個不樂見地方政府去講得太模糊了可不可以具體一點那事實上我們從我們的交流應該要去統戰化這種你平時可以去正常健康有序的交流但是不要在人家設定一個統戰的平台去"},{"start":5311.877,"end":5341.277,"text":"去幫人家做統戰的這種盆場反而會陷入到統戰的陷阱風險也比較多所以我們就希望他們不要去參加這個海峽論壇除了他自己政務人員不要前往他所屬的這些事業單位或是所屬的公務人員地方政府決定的也希望他們不要核准他們去"},{"start":5341.997,"end":5346.658,"text":"主委 本席跟你談到這件問題的時候 澳國的銀行要去辦了 到你沒錢為止你地方的政府有要去參加 你的帳戶有多少人 有對一個官司要去嗎"},{"start":5360.382,"end":5367.792,"text":"各位阿姨報告,截至目前為止,並沒有收到地方政府的申請也跟委員報告 阿姨,最近到現在都沒有,我們事務一旦,後果會看什麼人會去"},{"start":5375.06,"end":5377.261,"text":"跟委員報告其實大家去參加這個海峽論壇它就是一個統戰的平台也經常口惠而實不至那使我們參加的人都去那邊沒有什麼失意而且相關的這些統戰的活動"},{"start":5406.241,"end":5411.966,"text":"90%到今天的保險位置,這間也沒有我們就拭目以待,讓他想我什麼人出隊去參加如果他有提出,我們也會提高,跟他提醒風險會勸阻他,如果他執意要去,我們還有一套規勸如果你一定要去的話他如果沒有要聽你的規勸,我一定不會來的"},{"start":5430.848,"end":5435.071,"text":"是啊,我們就會跟他講啊是啊,那是就是標示也有人會去啊是嘛,主委其實目前為止是沒有啦因為你說的,這個時間還要辦人要申請還要付耶所以你剛才的回答也有人會去啦是,有可能這樣我們要看什麼人會去啦不用去鳳凰寨,不用去台灣要去啦"},{"start":5460.131,"end":5471.674,"text":"那既然站好好,保護我寬寬的,站大,站穩,站穩,真漂亮啦!常常都在找台灣人,來主委,在這裡本身就跟你,我們事務委員會落尾,到目前為止,你說沒有,"},{"start":5480.896,"end":5485.418,"text":"本來我們要看什麼人會去 因為如果過了 你要不要教啊在這裡本來要跟你說 上禮拜五的十三的時候有一個新聞很大的說沙縣小吃啦 來台灣開到九間店啦但是在這個過程當中 開店開很多 以前也沒開過"},{"start":5506.068,"end":5511.729,"text":"他不說這間店是國台辦出來開記者會說讚的呢主委你覺得這件事我知道沙縣小吃在中國大陸都有類似的沒有啦我現在要問說來台灣開記者會的時候國台辦說因為他開記者會啦說了算啦這有可能未來是痛讚嗎啦雖然你罵我罵"},{"start":5536.223,"end":5540.786,"text":"全都來申請台灣會做生意啦未來有可能發生什麼事嗎?我們要去議訪咧!人家發生的事... 問你了解是 問你那個了解 感謝委員提醒我有三線小吃... 我覺得我來你問這樣你還想說不知道什麼事不知道會發生什麼 你還聽不懂我你這個..."},{"start":5564.369,"end":5574.635,"text":"會否引起嚴重損失我們現在有了解他還是依法設立的當然啦,我剛才說依法設立啦有各種統戰或是不當的行為那我們也會依法查處截至目前為止還沒有發現任何違法的事情因為他說一個很嚴重的就是說兩岸一家會煙火共鳴"},{"start":5593.151,"end":5605.981,"text":"主委,我們這都要去最終去注意,本身來說,你應該做為陸委會的主委,應該對政客,大家也要了解說實在,所有的單位,你們這單位就是要保護台灣的生存內容,這是很嚴重的"},{"start":5618.432,"end":5627.594,"text":"主委,在這幾個星期,你有說到說,啊,我們武統藝人的時候,開始要檢舉處理啦檢舉在我們兩岸條例裡面的三十三條之一的處罰裡面,我感覺說,看來看去,我們從來就不罵藝人"},{"start":5643.649,"end":5658.956,"text":"出發過啦,我們都會想說,藝人在這裡,一生不由己,有的藝人是太過後期了在這個過程當中,這個藝人,說到他連同台灣都沒有,他在中國,要選擇中國的好啦"},{"start":5667.421,"end":5672.465,"text":"像這個我們未來,我們真的要去加強這裡的兩岸條例法啦在這裡面,很多立委都提案過,都退很多"},{"start":5681.843,"end":5709.142,"text":"嚴若我要問主委是您33條之一之二您如何去處理來 回答一下感謝委員我們已經跟文化部合組這個行政這個查處小組那麼正在進行必要的查處作為我們最主要也是要跟藝人你們為什麼會在一個特定的時刻全體一致"},{"start":5712.465,"end":5729.081,"text":"這個發布這個傷害台灣的言論或者是附和中共這個軍演的這些貼文那這個確實不是自發的行為我們要了解背後真正的事實是什麼再來依法裁處處分主委"},{"start":5731.303,"end":5737.606,"text":"硬硬喔 你們的看法要顧緊啦日本社所了解喔 我覺得太過敏了 要顧緊處理啦像你們的副主委說的 梁文傑說的說我們硬硬 如果發 這些藝人 會說我們會去挽回的 所以他們也不敢做啦"},{"start":5757.634,"end":5760.816,"text":"你如果不想犯不想衝啊,他什麼也要做,國家賣去,他還有天理順利,他才會賣,所以主委,這是怎樣,本身說到這個才分開,一個國家一個民族的老人,是非常不簡單,多少人拋命,"},{"start":5778.046,"end":5783.127,"text":"現在有經濟,自由的國家,像剛才說的,川普說的統一和平,他是要說中美的關稅,你認為他敢說這些?川普是空空笑笑的,誰是要變什麼就我做變什麼,你認為?"},{"start":5797.871,"end":5800.033,"text":"這部份是針對中美經貿問題沒有涉及台灣美國國務院也正式說明這個跟台灣沒有關係是美中談判經貿的問題"},{"start":5818.953,"end":5820.854,"text":"所以我也覺得很奇怪,因為美國跟中國不是好朋友,不是朋友,他們無緣無故去做生台灣的混亂,所以他是毛環製造者,他是做生理人的總統,"},{"start":5838.96,"end":5853.167,"text":"什麼人對有利益的一個要處理啦所以本席在這裡說你們有什麼事情都有可能發生本席跟你說的這幾件你們要上席去了解上席處理好好尤其我們的人民法33條之一之二要果斤契存 以上好 感謝委員好 謝謝下一位我們請李博義委員質詢"},{"start":5873.626,"end":5875.506,"text":"請邱主委邱主委有請林委員好主委辛苦我們去年在內政委員會在審查陸委會預算的時候我相信不管是執政黨委員或者是陸委會都費盡心力希望可以捍衛陸委會的預算因為試射我們對中國的這些事務還有對中國的這些研判等等的業務"},{"start":5902.182,"end":5912.907,"text":"在這邊今天正常質詢我想要請問主委在內政委員會被刪除3200萬但是最後在委員會被刪除8800萬在院會被刪除8800萬這樣是算8800萬還是1億2最後送出來的結果是怎樣"},{"start":5923.789,"end":5941.95,"text":"我想我們整個預算過去在內政委員會內政三千兩百萬然後去到議員會又八千八這樣是加起來還是這樣是一億二還是八千八影響到入委會的預算我想是快要兩億元就是被刪除的"},{"start":5943.14,"end":5960.495,"text":"那麼快要將近兩億元就是說還有在院會的還有兩億是包含給海基會的七千萬的補助啦那所以說這樣我剛剛這樣的問題就是我們要共三減的是一億九千四百十八萬這是創下"},{"start":5961.741,"end":5985.514,"text":"如果會成立以來有什麼很難做的有影響到哪一些業務剛開始我們感謝上個禮拜一委員有協助我們解凍解凍跟刪不一樣我們先把刪的講出來刪的部分包括業務費就被刪掉這個八千多萬那講補助是一億"},{"start":5986.855,"end":6012.764,"text":"零七百多萬這個都是不可媒體宣傳費當然這個也是被刪除很多媒體宣傳費我們原本正常的大樓維持費水電費我們原本是預計七月份以後就無以為繼不過所幸有這個解凍預算讓我們我現在沒有跟你講解凍解凍國民黨全部朝思逃逸都沒有來我現在跟你講刪除刪除的部分"},{"start":6015.225,"end":6034.251,"text":"這個沒宣費它影響到什麼?影響到剛剛很多委員質詢的內容包含抖音裡面出現的形態我現在整理成兩種好了第一種剛剛講的不斷有陸配或不斷有帶貨的網紅出現這些武統台灣的言論等等的其實"},{"start":6035.356,"end":6055.023,"text":"我們這樣看起來都是背後一套公式來鼓勵這些網紅然後衝流量衝了流量之後就是一種認知作戰那有了這些衝流量那他們就鼓勵然後接下來另外有這些小學生在校園外面拍小學生的等等的這些"},{"start":6056.721,"end":6075.135,"text":"陸委會如果沒有相關的這些宣傳的費用我們怎麼樣讓國人知道現在又發生什麼事現在又在習哪一些觀念那現在可能又要教小學生跳什麼舞然後其實背後又蘊藏哪一些他們想要做這些認知作戰的東西我覺得陸委會這一方面要非常非常敏感"},{"start":6076.162,"end":6092.137,"text":"謝謝委員我們雖然預算被刪除很多特別是我們的媒宣所以我們自己我們同仁自己要自己拍短短影音的影片來做宣傳主委你有沒有用抖音我沒有我們政府機關人員"},{"start":6093.318,"end":6110.328,"text":"會觀察但是我們不能使用一定要觀察啦因為我們看到大量的這些認知作戰的內容有時候想要舉報給政府單位如果我說我沒有這個東西我沒有這個軟體我沒有辦法看其實你永遠不知道他們在做什麼"},{"start":6110.868,"end":6125.94,"text":"所以我們都很關注那我要跟委員報告截至目前為止抖音它有嚴重的治安還有收集民眾各自的問題所以我們政府機關是被我們是沒有在用"},{"start":6126.821,"end":6141.876,"text":"其實在校園內部也在宣導校園內部的設備網路都不可以使用TikTok只不過現在民眾還是可以透過他網路下載APP來使用"},{"start":6142.617,"end":6155.626,"text":"不過整體而言抖音並沒有合法落地這也是我們要有效監管雖然沒有合法落地但是由於民眾可以自己下載這個確實在我們查處抖音相關的問題當中我們還缺乏一個"},{"start":6162.291,"end":6186.583,"text":"法律其實不只抖音齁那其實包含臉書臉書齁在最近被披露以前的臉書的一個前執行長齁他出了一本書那裡面就講到臉書跟中共的關係當貼文瀏覽超過一萬次會自動提交總編輯進行人工審查當六四或者是有一些特定時機的時候"},{"start":6188.342,"end":6206.648,"text":"臉書其實在中國它就是有一些東西就會禁止的那尤其在香港愚上革命的時候臉書也發揮了很多的這些暗黑的功能所以台灣面臨的其實不只抖音不只臉書各方面的這些認知作戰"},{"start":6207.428,"end":6229.934,"text":"或者是隱藏台灣民主訊息的這些機制非常多那陸委會雖然在預算被刪除很多的情況下那還是要很努力的去讓國人知道目前這些統戰還有這些認知作戰的這些型態到底有多多我今天其實還整理了包含藝人藝人其實我們的藝人去到那裡"},{"start":6231.357,"end":6249.217,"text":"被公式化必須要做出某一些言論的時候其實我們都都很心痛啦那我們都覺得這些演藝或文化的交流不應該有這些政治但是都已經被要求了那我們其實不管是歌迷或者是政府"},{"start":6249.704,"end":6272.498,"text":"很多都是採取包容都知道啊你去到那裡那你就是被強迫做這些事嘛那還是有畫一些紅線這個我在這邊表示支持但是我們最大的還是包容知道其實我們的藝人是被要求做這些事啦那紅線也要畫好我們確實啊我們跟這個文化部的行政查處小組啊那除了管理之外我們也要關懷第一個"},{"start":6275.1,"end":6294.275,"text":"被政治要求表態這是被嘛這是被不是他主張這是被嘛對很可能是這樣而且或是經紀公司要求等等的那另外我們也了解這個不是一人自己因為以我們台灣人啊這個飲水思源的善良本質啊"},{"start":6294.995,"end":6312.529,"text":"不會去糟蹋當年在台灣這塊土地支持培養他們的這些親友或是支持者所以去到大陸為什麼會如此的反常來傷害自己國家的主權還有"},{"start":6315.346,"end":6337.367,"text":"這個呼應對台軍演這個是我們也在懷疑所以我們才會跟文化部要組一個行政查處的一個小組一方面管理二方面提醒風險三方面就是關懷有可能齁其實他們去到那裡去到中國可能要在某一個城市開演唱會的時候有一些申請的流程"},{"start":6338.083,"end":6362.997,"text":"那這些申請的流程裡面可能就必須要簽署一些認同書啊這也是備啊是,所以我們理解這我們要非常清楚那當然最好我想基於保護這些藝人我們也不可能拿到這些可能有簽署哪一些認同書等等的最後跟主委探討一個問題主委的觀念非常好也突然打醒了很多這些宗教交流的這些人士"},{"start":6364.269,"end":6382.044,"text":"宗教交流中國的宗教中國的廟宇是哪一個他們的哪一個單位在管控主委我想是他們統戰部下轄的這個這個這個統戰部之外我知道的還有一些他中國是沒有信仰"},{"start":6383.137,"end":6398.425,"text":"那所以他的廟其實都是各地方政府的觀光旅遊單位有可能觀光旅遊單位觀光旅遊單位他來到台灣的時候可能是申請到統戰部的這些經費來到台灣做交流"},{"start":6399.085,"end":6417.639,"text":"而這些中國的這些廟宇來到台灣的人士跟台灣的廟宇去到中國交流的人士是不一樣的喔台灣的廟宇去到中國的人士大家都知道這個廟宇很多都是關心信仰或者是地方人士真的是這些組成的中國是誰組成的 主委"},{"start":6418.921,"end":6440.212,"text":"我想因為中國大陸他們是包括共產黨他們是無神論他們對於宗教估計說他是這個壓迫人民的鴉片所以他們對宗教的管理是放在統戰部裡面所以他派的這個廟的主委是統戰部派的"},{"start":6440.732,"end":6462.112,"text":"對就是說他在從事兩岸的宗教交流很可能就基於統戰的因素那所以這個跟我們台灣有信仰的自由不同中國大陸是沒有信仰自由剛剛海基會說我們四位這個一貫道的道卿還被他們查扣還沒回來用刑法來起訴判刑已經起訴判刑"},{"start":6463.994,"end":6481.632,"text":"所以這個都是讓我們覺得兩岸的這個宗教交流固然我們應該推動因為畢竟台灣是一個宗教自由的國家那中國大陸就不是所以這個也就是我們希望未來的宗教交流要專業性不要賦予它"},{"start":6482.813,"end":6503.308,"text":"統戰的任務 這樣講好了啦 如果我們跟他一樣的話我們某個廟的主委就是陸委會指派你變成主委去中國交流在台灣不可能發生啦 不可能嘛但是你現在在台灣看到來宗教交流的某一個主委他有可能就是中國統戰部任命你為某一個廟的主委來台灣做這些宗教的交流 是不是這樣"},{"start":6503.948,"end":6529.412,"text":"跟委員報告,當然我們願意促進兩岸的宗教專業性的交流如果說它沒有政治因素或是沒有統戰的因素,純粹就是說對宗教的比如說儀軌,包括整個他們的教義或是對於宗教的儀式,這方面專業的交流我們都尊重"},{"start":6530.692,"end":6545.602,"text":"而不是說用統戰部台辦的人混進來做交流或是在一直在執行他們是主神我們是分離在台灣進行各方面的這些遶境而且各縣市的遶境這種遶境活動在中國也不常見"},{"start":6548.303,"end":6563.252,"text":"為什麼都在台灣遶境連神的世界都要矮化我們所以我們要非常的關注他們透過宗教交流進行這方面的統戰作為這是我們要排除但是對於宗教交流專業交流我時間到了連宗教都要統戰我們這句話謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝李博士委員下一個我們請張宏祿召委諮詢"},{"start":6587.779,"end":6611.798,"text":"我請主委邱主委有請政委好主委我們陸委會上週有首度建議地方政府勿出席並建議地方政府不予核准所屬人員出席海峽論壇這一個但去年喔"},{"start":6614.867,"end":6623.645,"text":"去年我們態度是不樂見殘餘那今年的呢是想不與何準請問這有什麼特別的原因"},{"start":6625.408,"end":6645.129,"text":"謝謝委員跟委員報告事實上我們也跟地方政府有不少的交換意見他說你不樂見是什麼意思其實我們從海峽論壇的立場政府的立場跟原則還蠻一致性的就是中央是禁止"},{"start":6645.549,"end":6660.679,"text":"地方是不樂見事實上我們也常常跟地方政府講說去海峽論壇的一些風險不過我們很多地方政府那個時候還是對海峽論壇有一些憧憬認為他們會事出利多事實上這幾年下來"},{"start":6661.539,"end":6680.618,"text":"大部分是口惠而事不至所以地方政府也漸漸少去了那我們也跟他說他就是一個統戰的大平台啦他會力邀你去那很多人認為在這個場合他的鄉親他的選民也不讓他去所以來請我們陸委你修清楚一點你到底要我們怎麼樣"},{"start":6681.178,"end":6703.822,"text":"那如果是這樣我們從開始依照17條我們來強化我們這個反滲透反統戰我們希望交流都應該去統戰化所以我們這次呢也跟地方政府講清楚我們就不讓地方政府我們建議地方政府就不要前往去參加這種有統戰意味濃厚的海峽論壇也希望它所屬的同仁你也不要准"},{"start":6709.483,"end":6736.639,"text":"那這樣我們的態度就比較清楚那地方政府也知道怎麼配合當然啦我們很清楚啦我們不反對交流啦我們也不仇恨中國的人民一般人我們現在的只是共產黨無所不用其極在對台灣做任何的統戰啦做任何的脅迫施壓"},{"start":6737.713,"end":6753.534,"text":"反正他就是要把台灣給拿過去而已這是共產黨的態度啦但一般的中國的人民我相信啦可能也有一半以上是討厭共產黨只是他不敢講出來講出來就被抓去啦"},{"start":6755.416,"end":6782.771,"text":"委員說得很好其實我們願意跟中國大陸進行這個對等尊嚴健康有序的交流但是海峽論壇我們沒有主體性都是要設計好的一個統戰的一個框架所以我們是不適合我沒有說你們這個不對我想要我們跟一般人其實我們不排斥他其實有時候他的心可能是跟我們的心一樣只是他在那種"},{"start":6784.65,"end":6799.178,"text":"那種極權的政治的情況之下他不敢啊那就是威權統治啊 對不對所以像這個我認為啦 就像主委說的啦把他說的明確一點讓大家有這個"},{"start":6800.575,"end":6812.95,"text":"可以是說我也可以大膽跟你講就不行啊我就不能去啊這樣不就好了我覺得反而是更好的而且要讓他們知道共產黨啊他是到處騙啊那"},{"start":6816.826,"end":6838.439,"text":"在這種情況之下我不知道啊主委你知不知道其實台灣啊共產黨對台灣的統戰無所不用其極啊你知道剛剛我聽了很多委員在講說藝人啊怎麼樣藝人那當然是一個例子主委你知道嗎我們現在有很多電台"},{"start":6839.86,"end":6849.669,"text":"幾乎他的談話內容很多都是在替中共產黨宣傳你們知道這件事嗎我們有了解我們也積極在查處"},{"start":6851.789,"end":6878.888,"text":"怎麼查處跟委員報告特別是那種小型的地方電台或是個別的網紅都一直是中國大陸對台統戰的重要對象那我們也常看到他邀請這些地方電台或地方的媒體或是個人網紅到中國大陸去做參訪那回來可能就交付很多任務那麼在"},{"start":6880.894,"end":6903.556,"text":"這個中國大陸如果有資訊進來的話就會由他們做這個重要的管道散出這個就是我們在掌握的在以前國民黨執政的那時候我們還沒有戒嚴前啦戒嚴時代這種叫為匪宣傳是要抓去關的"},{"start":6905.099,"end":6912.757,"text":"可是我不知道你們有沒有那麼多的能力去監聽這些電台甚至媒體這些你們有這麼多能力嗎"},{"start":6914.885,"end":6939.696,"text":"是不可能的但是我們還是要積極的去讓民眾了解你如果說像我們反滲透法你接受中國大陸的指示委託資助在台灣又從事不法行為這個可能要加重處罰我這樣子講啦民眾這些都知道啦但啦"},{"start":6940.476,"end":6963.01,"text":"像這個真的很過分的這些因為坦白就像主委說的啦小的電台他本身要生存下去就不容易啦人家有給他好處他就像一個商業型的置入性嘛但你的置入性你不能違反一些原則嘛那如果有違反一些原則的我覺得跳一兩個來"},{"start":6965.494,"end":6976.142,"text":"來讓大家知道你這樣做是不對的啊是我覺得應該要這樣啊是 跟我們報告 其實我們國人警覺性有大幅提高像對這些小眾媒體或是網紅有一些談話他認為已經觸犯我們社會底線都會積極地跟陸委會或香港當局提出檢舉那我們也會積極地來查辦我覺得啦 很具體啦"},{"start":6989.893,"end":7002.107,"text":"陸委會你可以就這個跟相關的單位然後去跟他們開一個跨部會的會議去協調我跟你講他只要在上面賣藥講錯一個字講錯一個就罰了啊"},{"start":7006.363,"end":7024.135,"text":"表示是有人在特別處理這件事啊你不能跟他們合作嗎對不對他的內容有錯也是罰啊你光講錯這個健康食品跟醫療的什麼就罰了啊那這個為什麼他可以到處罰啊這個為什麼我們抓不到"},{"start":7025.386,"end":7047.134,"text":"這個我覺得執行上可以檢討一下啦那另外啦最後我要說不只這樣啊人家現在都已經積極的創造網紅你知道嗎有很多說去中國不管哪個城市參加歌唱比賽然後歌唱比賽呢"},{"start":7048.868,"end":7067.634,"text":"得前三名台灣的人對不對然後得前三名他還幫你出唱片然後幫你辦演唱會那他就培養一個網紅啦培養一個然後再透過他回來就像剛剛朱薇你講的做一些不合理的宣傳"},{"start":7069.403,"end":7093.407,"text":"人家都已經做到這樣了耶這個我相信你們應該也都有所掌握啦但有所掌握的情況之下我覺得合理的商業行為合理的什麼我們也不能去制止他們但他的言論只要有不對你就要積極處理啊我就舉剛剛的例子啊賣保健食品講錯一句話就要罰很多錢啊那你去調調看那個罰了多少然後連這個"},{"start":7098.704,"end":7119.285,"text":"你說政府沒有辦法去監控那我覺得這樣政府就無能了是跟委員報告特別在網路世界裡面我們要尋求這個數位的服務的管理那目前我們台灣還是要形成共識那截至目前為止"},{"start":7121.207,"end":7143.649,"text":"我沒有跟你講網路世界,我剛講的很清楚了喔哪些項目喔因為他的很多宣傳都會停在網路上面比如說網紅他一直透過這個網路平台來做載具那這個部分有些錯假消息的處理那確實我們要台灣社會要趕快形成共識因為在民主先進國家"},{"start":7146.131,"end":7163.143,"text":"這個數位服務法在像歐盟在2022年就已經立法其他像其他歐洲國家、美國、日本都有這個相關的立法我們台灣市還沒有這方面的立法主委我剛剛就講了啦是他賣保健食品講錯話就可以罰連續罰對不對那你連這個他為匪宣傳替共產黨講一些"},{"start":7171.775,"end":7195.607,"text":"就像網紅講的這些都是要侵犯台灣主權然後在替台灣人洗腦的人這個我們政府竟然沒有辦法去處理我覺得不對啦是我覺得你們要去處理就好啦是 謝謝委員我們尊重國人的言論自由但是對於比如說要消滅中華民國比如說鼓吹戰爭那這個部分就是超過我們紅線的我們還會積極處理"},{"start":7198.055,"end":7207.078,"text":"對啦你們就去積極處理就好了是好謝謝委員謝謝張榮祿召委現在我們請黃婕委員質詢好謝謝主席我們請主委邱主委有請"},{"start":7222.424,"end":7234.262,"text":"黃委員好主委好首先來跟進前面幾位委員的這個議題喔因為我知道說現在陸委會正在查處大概二十幾位的藝人是希望說他們不要來唱賀中國然後為中國來宣傳"},{"start":7237.566,"end":7256.053,"text":"那但是呢其實前幾天有幾位委員在另外一個委員會已經有問到了那目前問到是說你們會根據兩岸條例33之1的這個紅線然後你們查處的標準是如果按照它的頻率以及它的嚴重性來決定要不要開罰然後會有兩個紅線嘛一個是說言論有明確表達要消滅台灣主權或是有涉及武統的言論第二個紅線是說破壞自由民主的憲政秩序"},{"start":7266.957,"end":7292.876,"text":"那其实我认为这两个红线目前看起来还是不够明确的我认为应该要更明确的告诉所有的不管是艺人网红还是任何要到中国去交流然后去表演的这一些公众人物他们都应该要有所依循才对当然我很认同陆委会接下来要给予他们的理由是说不要让他们身不由己"},{"start":7294.637,"end":7308.622,"text":"不要讓他們去中國在發表這些言論或是轉發相關的圖卡的時候無所依循因為連我們自己國內如果都沒有辦法給出他們這個標準就等於是他們沒有後盾去跟中共說我們不要做這件事情嘛"},{"start":7310.348,"end":7323.826,"text":"對 我認為這個基礎是很好只是說我認為紅線的這個剛剛說的這兩條紅線應該要更加明確這個才讓藝人或是所有的公眾人物他們去到中國的時候才有所依循啊而不是說現在這兩條看起來還是有一點"},{"start":7326.73,"end":7334.353,"text":"不夠明確而且是可能變成說33之一裡面的合作行為沒有明確的規範導致他們沒有辦法就變有點漫無邊際擔心說會不會做了這件事情講了這句話又變成觸犯我們的兩岸條例所以我在這邊是明確的建議陸委會接下來應該要讓紅線更明確才可以實質保障國人的權益"},{"start":7351.604,"end":7376.453,"text":"是 謝謝委員 我想我們對在中國大陸發展的藝人我們尊重我們國人的各種言論自由包括他對文化 對血緣的選擇 我們都尊重只不過我們對有一些言行包括消滅中華民國 矮化台灣甚至鼓吹配合中國大陸武統"},{"start":7377.853,"end":7402.833,"text":"那我們對這些言論當然就是我們社會都引起極大的反彈反感跟不齒當然很多的檢舉案就進來那我們對這些我們關注的就是大家看我們用兩條例33條之一是跟中國大陸黨政軍的合作行為我們試想他們往往在特定時刻一起集體的"},{"start":7407.421,"end":7415.887,"text":"表達各種矮化台灣共同的說法或者是一起轉發類似的圖卡這個背後都是有一個力量在逼迫他們"},{"start":7438.222,"end":7461.043,"text":"我想我們單純轉發會以這個比較尊重個人言論自由但是集體轉發就是我們強調的合作行為這個合作行為具有主觀跟客觀的要件都符合所以我們很就是想透過這是跟文化部這個行政查處去了解這種合作行為背後的合作行為是不存在"},{"start":7462.164,"end":7476.33,"text":"因為如果未清我們政府的許可你是不得跟中國大陸黨政軍有任何形式的合作行為我們是用這個查處然後再來去跟他關切跟提醒"},{"start":7477.55,"end":7502.823,"text":"關懷的部分當然我們知道他們在中國大陸是不是有遭到什麼經濟攻勢或者遭到怎麼樣的外力脅迫逼他們去政治表態他個人有沒有這個意願因為一般來說只要是台灣人都有那種飲水思源照顧故鄉的這種本質那怎麼回過頭來傷害自己的國家好像栽培他的"},{"start":7503.343,"end":7520.88,"text":"社會這個我們要去調查原委那是怎麼樣造成的所以這個我們還是要有查處的行為之後才能夠了解事實真相那另外我們也透過這次的查處關懷他在中國大陸可能生存不易我們台灣其實是在整個"},{"start":7522.799,"end":7541.445,"text":"就是表演的空間的自由是比中國大陸更優越加上我們文化部有很多很好的機會可以提供藝人來發展如果他可以可以回到台灣來更重要的我們又查處的作為也在挺我們的藝人他可以跟對岸說我們政府已經在"},{"start":7542.065,"end":7545.827,"text":"查處了那我不得再轉發這些事情了因為我就是認為你們應該要給出一些具體的行為的規範讓這些藝人避免誤觸統戰的這個底線然後甚至是避免誤觸統戰的紅線然後也要給他們後盾給他們理由讓他們有理由去跟中共拒絕嘛"},{"start":7562.677,"end":7565.859,"text":"這個是非常重要所以剛剛其實講到說三十三條之一的這個解釋中國的黨政軍的合作行為到底是什麼我希望陸委會這個要加以說明就例如說我剛剛講的如果有一些藝人除了藝人轉發圖卡這種事情還有例如台灣的名嘴啊他們就會說統戰有什麼關係包括之前已經好幾個名嘴什麼謝寒冰趙紹康都講過嘛那這種算不算"},{"start":7591.013,"end":7611.173,"text":"那另外一種就是說如果像我們的台灣的立委他們去跟中國跟一些中共的幹部見面然後可能有涉及一些有違國家利益國家安全的行為甚至說他們代表中央政府要去跟中國假設啦他們說已經現在富坤起已經說他代表中央政府了嘛但如果他去跑去跟中共說要簽一些協議"},{"start":7613.735,"end":7627.152,"text":"可能和平協議或什麼協議那這種算不算跟中國黨政局有明確的合作行為跟委員報告這個是更嚴重的情形這是違反兩條例第五條之一如果情節"},{"start":7628.889,"end":7648.582,"text":"更重的話還有刑罰的問題那這個部分我們也查查他嘴巴這麼說但是並沒有簽署協議如果有的話那就是明顯違反我們兩條第五條之一這個是比較重度的各種處罰"},{"start":7649.707,"end":7668.695,"text":"好所以我是希望啦我剛剛講的這個33條之一的內容到底是什麼可不可以再請陸委會之後再提供書面然後也在你們之後的記者會更明確的讓大家知道如何避免誤觸紅線這個非常重要那再來幫我放一下投影片下一個"},{"start":7669.295,"end":7674.962,"text":"那我講一下這個剛好我們陳玉珍委員也在現場這個就是我想要問的請問海峽兩岸論壇在你們的定義當中已經是明確中共對台的統戰平台對嗎"},{"start":7681.975,"end":7707.289,"text":"是包括因為我們雖然是參加邀請方但是沒有台灣的主體性都是由他安排他的統戰框架跟宣傳這個是我這邊提供一下去年有出席兩岸論壇的名單包括中國國民黨的副主席連聖文然後中國國民黨的雲林縣長張立善還有我們在座的陳玉珍委員蘇星泉委員還有台灣民眾黨的中央委員還有"},{"start":7711.511,"end":7738.498,"text":"新党的主席还有金门的副县长全部都跑去了这个两岸海峡的论坛那我想问的是你们目前只有建议他们不要出席那有没有更明确的做法就例如说你们现在要求自己中央部会跟所属的单位人士不能出席禁止以任何形式参加但是对于地方政府以及像地方的民代中央的民代他们出席了"},{"start":7739.258,"end":7749.644,"text":"你們有沒有一些可不可以要求他們申報或者是說許可或者是說你們公告這一些出席的名單至少做到揭露的義務讓大家知道說我們台灣就是有這麼多的黨公職正在出席中共的這樣的統戰論壇"},{"start":7760.59,"end":7777.858,"text":"跟委員報告我們這次對於海峽論壇的原則的處理就是您剛提到的就是對於地方政府由原本的不樂見前往一直到最近要建議地方政府不予參加"},{"start":7779.199,"end":7793.381,"text":"就是不同意參加海峽論壇那也希望他的所屬去參加海峽論壇呢也不以同意那我們給出比較明確的建議是因為過去有很多的地方政府反映因為我們"},{"start":7794.463,"end":7821.514,"text":"提到這個不樂見他們說這比較模糊那很多地方政府也跟我說要明確一點如果說我們說不建議他們去他至少在中國大陸很多邀約他說我們政府他可以推辭對他可以推辭要給他們推辭後盾跟理由那更重要是因為由於沒有主體性你們都在看中國大陸有沒有透過海峽論壇釋出給地方政府的一些善意其實他這個都是區別對待"},{"start":7824.256,"end":7846.957,"text":"進行對於我們的分化的統戰事實上我們看到這幾年連善意也沒有口惠而死不至所以越來越多的地方政府也不想去了他有說希望我們政府就講明確一點那我們這次就建議他們不要去但是如果一定要去的我們也希望能夠要遵守兩岸的相關規定"},{"start":7848.258,"end":7875.985,"text":"希望在對等尊嚴那也要注意社會的觀感剛剛委員提的很好就是說我們提很多社會很重視政治人物去參加這個統戰活動那民眾會非常的高度的關注所以我們也希望有建議一定要去的人要注意社會觀感要注意國際視聽來確保能努力維護台灣的整體利益至少要申報或是提供去"},{"start":7877.725,"end":7895.757,"text":"這個出訪的行程呢目前申報的只有有限的這些特定要按照兩岸條例第九條的規定來申報那像目前我們也是希望那是不是至少要求這個有公職身份的包括說地方縣市首長是還有政府人員但是還有包括民代"},{"start":7900.28,"end":7909.267,"text":"包括議員包括立委包括里長如果他們要出席這個都已經被你們定義是對台統戰的這樣的平台的海峽兩岸論壇那他們出席這樣的活動難道不需要申報行程嗎是跟委員報告以你這張表"},{"start":7915.532,"end":7940.16,"text":"像縣市首長、直轄市長、政務官都要跟我們申報至於立法委員是沒有我們也嘗試的去修法不過因為立委前往他肩負的很多選民的這種期許也會被高度關注加上海峽論壇也有很多媒體所以都會被揭露"},{"start":7940.74,"end":7966.794,"text":"那有許多的政黨人士會前往不管怎麼樣去參加這個海峽論壇這種統戰的活動我們都希望能夠遵守兩岸的條例能夠共同維護台灣整體的利益能夠對等尊嚴那麼不要太附和他們統戰的說法這個對國人是明星世紀這種打擊"},{"start":7967.754,"end":7980.66,"text":"那我們也希望他要重視社會觀感這很重要謝謝主委我相信這個就是講給我們台下的陳昀臻委員聽的啦那最後不好意思再給我一分鐘好不好最後一頁"},{"start":7982.022,"end":7985.784,"text":"這個我這邊提供兩個案子我這邊接到兩個澄清案一個是我們文藻外語大學他們有學校的學務的組長他們直接在學校跟學生推薦這個上海的參訪團然後只要2500塊就可以去七天然後可以住四到五星級的飯店然後還有說這個就是邀請學生學生一起來參與"},{"start":8009.315,"end":8024.28,"text":"那另外一個是在荔枝中學裡面也是有這樣的群組的訊息在散步當中包括說去上海蘇州然後對像是對科學文化有興趣的全台高中生然後備註說如果小學畢業之後就沒有去過中國內陸的同學會優先錄取那請問這兩則訊息是不是很明顯的統戰交流團"},{"start":8032.463,"end":8052.436,"text":"我想應該是相當明確,那我們陸委會最近也因為暑假快到了,類似中國大陸的這種邀請案、交流案我們認為如果不是對等尊嚴的,不是符合這個教育部規範,我們就把這些個案依請教育部趕快處理"},{"start":8053.618,"end":8070.14,"text":"好這兩岸其實我都已請了那只是我想要在這邊建議陸委會接下來沒錯像你說的暑假要到了這種以學術或者是以宗教為名的兩岸交流團非常多但是如何協助學校跟這一些公廟去辨識它是不是統戰團"},{"start":8071.321,"end":8086.515,"text":"這個我要拜託陸委會接下來也請你們給我書面報告以及在你們所有的公開平台上面協助所有的這些地方單位不管是學校還是什麼宗教還是任何的他們以文化為名的交流團但實質是統戰團的請他們讓他們知道怎麼辨識讓他們知道怎麼去預防好不好好這是我們職責所在我們全力以赴謝謝委員"},{"start":8099.54,"end":8106.885,"text":"謝謝看來我們今天這個質詢的時間好像給的短了一點請大家把握時間好不好下一位我們請麥一貞委員質詢麥一貞委員質詢完之後我們休息五分鐘謝謝主席有請邱主委還有董事長 吳董事長邱主委有請吳董事長"},{"start":8131.727,"end":8150.668,"text":"主委好 感謝兩位在今天列席報告對我們兩岸就複雜的情勢 除了國安還有經貿風險外我們兩岸民間來往的婚姻家庭也是相關三百萬家庭的福利的議題"},{"start":8152.129,"end":8155.651,"text":"所以我們在看到的母親節的期間我們陸委會內政部還有海基會高調的舉辦說母親節陸配關懷活動對外宣稱就是溫馨關懷但此時此刻同時也有大量的陸配就是陸籍配因為無法三個月內補交三次中國戶籍的證明"},{"start":8181.57,"end":8209.349,"text":"面临处疾导致生活的中断还有政府一边高喊温情的关怀一边却处疾来政治清算这种一边送康乃馨一边剥夺他们居住台湾这个身份所以呢这个是政治性的羞辱因为这些妈妈不管是外配还是陆配他们母亲节都快乐不起来"},{"start":8210.373,"end":8238.323,"text":"因為呢一個就會擔心身份就失去了另外一個不知道我們政府什麼時候又再清算所以我們要請教一下目前已經有多少人因此被處級還有又有多少人進入補件的階段還有我們的部分陸配因為年老經濟困難或者中國當局不配合"},{"start":8238.943,"end":8257.823,"text":"仍處於補件的困境三個月時程很短但是中國行政效力下許多人就是難以取得證明所以我們要這個申請還有這些的案件現在目前處理得如何"},{"start":8259.96,"end":8289.62,"text":"好 謝謝委員 首先跟委員報告我們這個母親節的活動啊當然真的是關懷我們陸配所有在台生活這是我們例行都會做的事情第二個我也要跟委員您剛剛說我們請陸配為了維護他的這個合法的身份請他把這個處級拿回來叫清算我們不同意這種說法"},{"start":8290.48,"end":8313.293,"text":"這個是在羞辱我們服務陸配的公務人員的努力我們都在協助我們的陸配試想我們的目標就是讓他們安居樂業他們沒有合法的身份怎麼安居樂業我想所有的陸配並沒有委員講那個三個月內就受到除籍的只要跟我們"},{"start":8314.52,"end":8334.621,"text":"移民署跟我們海基會跟我們陸委會聯繫我們都會來協助他來協助他達成剛剛委員有問說我們就是之前的資深這些陸配那麼具有這個雙重戶籍被註銷的人我們從以往"},{"start":8337.684,"end":8350.21,"text":"這個累計是有1192人那我也要跟您報告就是說您有提到就是這次呢我們清查就是在2004年3月1號這些人"},{"start":8353.371,"end":8373.701,"text":"他們已經繳付上市人籍證明了有1784件就是他們也配合政府然後他們自己去放棄了已經有這些那我們跟我們申請拒絕的可能現在比較不方便也有從公佈方案4月21號以來到520有880件"},{"start":8378.194,"end":8399.665,"text":"申請延後附錄的也有352件那反映其他的爭議的問題我們說各種的疑難雜症都可以跟我們反映也有485件那麼這些每一個件我們都會專案的協助跟輔導並沒有委員所說的在給他"},{"start":8400.865,"end":8417.296,"text":"主委是有做了 所以我們也看到有這些問題但是因為我們民間團體現在目前很多人在反應我們要第一個就是"},{"start":8418.936,"end":8421.739,"text":"第一個對陸配就是請送回去第二個就馬上就是有這些的問題但是直接是我們要取得台灣的身份"},{"start":8432.441,"end":8457.97,"text":"我們是政府的規定來取得這個是政府規定不是我們像我們外配我們直接就是你要拿到放棄國籍你才能拿到台灣身份證對不對但是這個行政作業是你們的疏忽所以變成你們的疏忽現在你們叫後面再來去清查清算所以我們就覺得說沒有清算"},{"start":8458.69,"end":8475.287,"text":"我們都在關懷協助輔導但是因為大家都感覺是這樣因為一路發生的事情讓大家就是愁在我們也跟大部分的陸配團體有聯繫他們都很感謝政府的協助大部分的陸配也都是非常"},{"start":8475.908,"end":8479.21,"text":"我還沒有找你回應等一下再換你回應因為有很多你們現在的資料為什麼以前不查今年又再查出來查出來了又要給的不只是送給小孩子而已媽媽一起送"},{"start":8492.916,"end":8497.419,"text":"所以變成這些資料是你們寄 移民署寄就變成大家覺得說我的個資又是不是又外洩了 還有收到一些簡訊所以這個是大家在心惶惶還有很多的拿到身份證了 沒有收到你們寄過來的他們也不清楚說他們已經被處級還是沒有被處級如果他們沒有收到 就變成說是不是"},{"start":8518.892,"end":8522.595,"text":"我三個月我就要被錢送所以這個種種的產生的問題所以我們是因為這樣呢我們就是在我們發生的當天我們就有就是新二代為了母親他們就是公開的去懲罰"},{"start":8539.138,"end":8543.842,"text":"當5月10號我們新住民的團體姐妹們他們母親節前一天他們也公開的陳情到現在新住民的團體與新二代的團體多次陳情"},{"start":8556.613,"end":8584.747,"text":"所以呢也批评我们政策造成就是家庭的分裂还有就是制度的歧视所以我们希望说这个放宽或者是说我们有没有一个专职的窗口让他们真正的觉得是说居住台湾大家是把我们是当作台湾人自己的家人的真的是要协助不要说他们的连新二代我们台湾之子"},{"start":8585.347,"end":8609.271,"text":"他們都站出來了新住民也站出來了我們不能說不讀不回或者不要給他們回應這樣子我們就是辦個活動這樣子就做一個形象還是說真的是對他們好嗎我們希望我們陸委會這邊真的是真正的落實為我們居住台灣我們是台灣人的幫助"},{"start":8609.83,"end":8633.302,"text":"是 謝謝委員我想我們做的這個目標跟您的一樣就是希望台灣能夠成為所有新住民安居樂業的新故鄉那至於這個事情包括您提到那個二代有很多的反應他們也有到入委會我們也剛剛說明他們都很支持我們政府的做法當然委員有提到那個就是他各種心理的"},{"start":8633.982,"end":8656.858,"text":"恐慌或是不知道不知所措這個只要跟我們包括我們常說這個我們海基會是陸配永遠的娘家我們各地的移民署是我們陸配家庭的依靠我們陸委會就是陸配的後盾不要跟我們講就不會有你那個擔心更沒有歧視的問題只有擔心輔導服務"},{"start":8661.621,"end":8664.382,"text":"輔導是別人來求救但是因為產生主委我覺得是說我們不管是新二代還是陸配是他們來求救你處理我們希望的你主動因為已經你們的行政錯誤"},{"start":8680.787,"end":8686.91,"text":"導致這些事情擦身你們應該聽我講完應該你們要去辦就是論壇或者說明會邀請他們一起來跟你們面對面來去對談我覺得對大家比較有幫助我們好幾場的說明會都已經在"},{"start":8699.316,"end":8704.94,"text":"預計要舉行了好幾場什麼時候 因為他們還是在我們城市還有在北中南各地都會舉辦我希望你們就是要管先 讓更多人來知道這樣子的施助接下來 你已經在辦了 所以我希望你把這些資料給我接下來我要問的海基會"},{"start":8723.11,"end":8737.22,"text":"我們在報告中多次強調就是協助兩岸民眾的緊急事件但是當我們的工作重心之一包含就是辦護照、病危、滴流這些在台的這些事件都是我們的玄關人命的基本權利的第一線的需求但是目前我們政府在兩岸緊張的停擺之下"},{"start":8753.25,"end":8758.554,"text":"基本就是24緊急專線卻在今年3月縮減成為還有12個小時所以我要請教一下若民眾深夜發生事情急難的事情或者像突發的病狀還有家屬深夜就是要對岸的求救的時候我們要等明天再來打電話嗎這樣的服務"},{"start":8780.869,"end":8794.539,"text":"是及時應變嗎我們是希望我們的董事長因為希望你來幫忙我們這一塊很坦白跟委員這個答覆24小時的專線33年沒有斷過最近才改成12個小時為什麼呢因為我們的預算4塊錢被你們刪掉剩下3塊"},{"start":8813.282,"end":8835.772,"text":"那是不是改成12小時之後要等明天再打沒有 我們有錄音那隔天一早馬上答覆對方這是不得已的措施請你們了解是因為這樣子我們不但20小時專線這樣子改啦我們很多活動只好取消啊我們連送每一個董事生日的花都取消剩下一張卡片"},{"start":8837.29,"end":8840.212,"text":"謝謝我們董事長救命專線比董事的生日還重要但是你覺得董事的生日來去比對我覺得我們的人命關天我們就是說影音今天中風明天才急救這樣子就會是說我們錄音純正就是打電話進來所以我們還機會過去強調"},{"start":8865.646,"end":8874.488,"text":"人道精神還有及時應變 如今卻唯一救命的專線的時效急救的專線變成現實的專線 現實的服務就違背我們的海基會的精神還有宗旨啦所以我們感覺是這樣子原則不變 裡面的錢變了"},{"start":8890.138,"end":8905.447,"text":"現在問題我們的服務我們的服務量我們在停擺啊我們要不是說有一些急迫性的我們要去處理沒有我們要急迫性的使你不是說行政判斷出了問題我們民眾需要的是什麼我們要去講我們民眾的需要的是什麼因為現在兩岸馬路不通"},{"start":8916.575,"end":8920.43,"text":"但是唯一的救命專線也不通了"},{"start":8921.414,"end":8925.956,"text":"這樣我們兩岸關係的但是你說就減一塊錢但是你的生日的來去來去把它比對我真的是聽了很難過啊我們一個專線救命的馬路不通了我們專線還來把它停掉還有12個小時說我們義大利人員不加薪真的我覺得真的是董事長我覺得是真的如果說"},{"start":8950.834,"end":8966.248,"text":"沒辦法求救的裝線多要去關的話我們覺得說我們海基會這樣子的價值是什麼啊董事長真的我聽起來真的很難過抱歉跟委員報告一下就是"},{"start":8966.949,"end":8979.647,"text":"我們24小時服務專線雖然現在只有12個小時但是8點半之後我們還是有這個保全可以來直接接通我們的服務的人員而且我們每天都有控管半夜的這個服務的狀況是什麼叫做緊急專線"},{"start":8982.791,"end":8994.205,"text":"但是...沒有但是我們的服務不會中斷就是我們仍然...我們可以在當時馬上來做處理如果人需要的話我們可以馬上給你們做報告沒有沒有我們每天都有控管相關的狀況跟委員做報告對 謝謝"},{"start":9001.313,"end":9014.85,"text":"對的確這方面我們仍然這個叫做緊急專線啦緊急專線只有12個小時什麼叫做緊急專線我真的是聽不下去我們希望就是從"},{"start":9016.953,"end":9040.052,"text":"陸配的除籍的正義還有還有其他就是現在我們的就是海基會我們希望我們要去做的是我們馬路現在都停擺了我們我們的專線希望要有這個功能才能幫助到我們兩岸關係的國人的幫助"},{"start":9040.812,"end":9046.556,"text":"所以我們希望說不管是我們人民的交代對我們的國會的負責希望兩位要跨部會的來去協調幫助到我們的國民謝謝因為時間有限不用讓你們回答你們素面給我可以嗎希望你們跨部會來去處理謝謝好謝謝麥義正委員現在我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":9070.865,"end":9084.055,"text":"嗨去那邊我這邊喔今天還有多少人大概還有幾個那邊好 今天還有多少人有的不會來啦我應該不要去邊境嘛好 反正結束的時候打給我好"},{"start":9093.962,"end":9094.182,"text":"要吃麵糰嗎?"},{"start":9119.243,"end":9119.585,"text":"謝謝收看,下次見"},{"start":9538.837,"end":9544.261,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 接下來請我們牛喜廷委員召委謝謝主席 邱主委有請有請主委委員好好 這個雖然是請你備詢了但是我要在這邊我們讚美一下我們吳董事長"},{"start":9566.275,"end":9583.747,"text":"剛剛吳董事長理論上來講他是不用備詢的但是他剛剛用了一些時間來清楚的對海基會的立場做了充分的表達包含他提到說和平應該是兩岸的共同利益但是和平難行卻成為了世界共同的問題這句話某一些層面來講深得我心我之所以要讚美他的原因是因為"},{"start":9584.708,"end":9600.407,"text":"其實我們今天去談兩岸關係的一些變化其實非常關鍵的是應該需要看到所謂的完整性跟所謂的一致性昨天是賴清德總統就職一週年他很罕見的或者是很出乎意料的並沒有在這個就職演說中提及兩岸關係"},{"start":9601.57,"end":9630.403,"text":"那這當然是某一種層面來講這是一種信號但是我們要把時間往回拉一路拉回他就職開始一路以來他對於兩岸立場的一些調整跟改變我希望藉這樣一點點的業務報告的時間我想聽一聽邱主委的看法跟評論這113年5月20號也就是他就職上任的當天他馬上將兩岸定位成為兩國互不隸屬這個主委你自己在業務報告的時候你是講兩岸互不隸屬到底是兩國還是兩岸"},{"start":9632.888,"end":9659.422,"text":"跟委員報告不管是中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬或者兩岸互不隸屬這個都是客觀的事實以及台海的現狀那我們在呼籲中國大陸就是一個重點要正視中華民國存在的客觀事實你如果不正視它"},{"start":9661.534,"end":9673.003,"text":"你的對台政策都是要消滅中華民國並吞台灣兩岸就很辛苦因為你剛剛的回答表示這兩件事情其實是一樣的它真的是一樣的嗎它如果是一樣的話那為什麼你今天的業務報告是講兩岸而不是講兩國"},{"start":9675.026,"end":9691.773,"text":"跟委員報告我們是經常我們因為有很多句子要鋪陳那基本上就是我們經常講兩岸互不隸屬那就是這是客觀事實跟台海的現狀那不管怎麼樣就叫正式"},{"start":9693.274,"end":9710.189,"text":"我們中華民國客觀事實存在要正視台灣人民對於民主自由生活方式的堅持好 這些形容詞大家都聽很多這不是形容詞 是我們政策好 政策 我們都願意尊重 願意了解但是你看其實剛剛就出現了所謂的不一致性這只是我的開頭而已"},{"start":9711.09,"end":9737.091,"text":"今年的3月13號我們的賴總統賴17條強硬的表態把對岸定義成為所謂的境外敵對勢力並且提出5項統戰威脅跟17項的因應策略這俗稱的賴17條嘛對不對照理來講是順著但是到了5月17號他接受所謂的網紅敏迪的專訪的時候卻突然變成了大公司並小公司的時候應該要開好條件欸這個就開始出現所謂的不一致性啦"},{"start":9737.831,"end":9749.528,"text":"如果中國大陸在賴清德總統定調又是兩國互不隸屬又是境外敵對勢力那怎麼可以允許併購行為呢主委 這樣子的一個說法是你的建議嗎跟委員報告"},{"start":9753.669,"end":9769.557,"text":"我想兩岸互動重點就是在對等尊嚴那麼賴總統昨天也在強調只要對等尊嚴歡迎中國大陸跟來台進行各種的合作交流我們也期許"},{"start":9771.618,"end":9792.934,"text":"在對等尊嚴的情況下兩岸可以透過交流取代圍堵透過對話取代對抗讓兩岸可以健康有序展開交流為兩岸的良性互動墊下基礎我想這是緩解兩岸關係最重要的公開的某一些層面是喊話我今天要問的問題就是這樣"},{"start":9794.315,"end":9813.137,"text":"就是說你在賴17條的時候把它講的境外敵對勢力然後現在又講說應該要用對話取代對抗這就叫做不一致嘛中委員沒有不一致沒有不一致沒有不一致為什麼會這樣因為我們面對的中國大陸非常嚴重的威脅統戰滲透"},{"start":9815.859,"end":9844.481,"text":"這我有講的這是一種複合性的施壓包括軍機艦擾台越來越嚴重這個你剛剛講的不管是灰色地帶作戰啦或者說複合式施壓這些本質都非常理解但問題就是對岸起來是沒有變的嘛它就是一直逼你一直壓迫你對不對對不不不逼極限施壓我擔心的是我們自己沒有很清楚的一致性嘛如果你講民進黨執政當然要打對抗路線那你就明確而且清楚而且一致性那至少"},{"start":9844.901,"end":9867.916,"text":"在全世界各地在觀看在推兩岸的戰略等等的時候他有跡可循但是問題就是從去年的5月20號到現在你一下說兩國互不隸屬一下說要對話一下又講說境外敵對勢力一下又講說併購要提條件到了520滿一年之後對兩岸置之未提這件事情叫做不完整"},{"start":9868.476,"end":9898.059,"text":"不一致某一些層面從全世界看待兩岸關係推演的角度來講這叫不確定性我提醒一下邱主委最近Foreign Affairs出了兩篇文章一篇是15號他寫The risk of war in the Taiwan Strait is highand getting higher另外一篇是5月20號The Taiwan Tightrope這兩篇文章我希望陸委會也許海基會可以去拜讀一下這當然來自於美國的智庫學者這個對於最近兩岸局勢跟"},{"start":9898.619,"end":9914.446,"text":"整體亞太和平安全架構下面的一些分析裡面有提到共同的兩個重點第一個要避免大家誤判情勢啊也就是說很有可能那個衝突是會爆發的如果美方沒有抓好情勢的話"},{"start":9915.546,"end":9937.153,"text":"可能會出現擦槍走火的一個狀況另外這兩篇文章都明示暗示啊就美方應該要稍微遏制一下所謂的挑釁行為這話講得很清楚搭配前一陣子川普講的unification and peace這個我們有沒有受到美方的壓力或者是指示主委就我的業務範圍我沒有就你的業務範圍你沒有對"},{"start":9938.564,"end":9959.991,"text":"那我跟委員報告中國大陸對台灣的對台政策還是軟硬兩手硬的那一手就越硬所以我們剛剛說的複合性的施壓這就是我們為了維持現狀積極的維持現狀讓台海現狀不被改變所以我們要有17項的因應策略"},{"start":9961.427,"end":9989.497,"text":"那當然我們也是希望兩岸應該要正常健康有序的交流我現在就是很擔心啦就是你對外釋出的訊號一下是17項的強硬策略一下又釋出善意這不一致所謂強硬策略委員我們稍微跟您報告一下那個都是我們的政黨防衛那個都是我們內部的這個強化機制並沒有對中國大陸有什麼挑釁那他"},{"start":9990.117,"end":10005.763,"text":"成為我們的說我們是境外敵對勢力那個也是國際公務員的事實借用一點時間只是要提醒這個大選的時候我們賴總統曾經講這個他當總統的時候兩岸發生戰爭的機率一定最低但只是今日目前"},{"start":10006.443,"end":10030.212,"text":"中共舉行四次環台軍演其實我們政府的一言一行都牽動兩岸的敏感神經那立場的論述要有一致性我今天不在這邊定義你應該要和緩或者是強硬因為這有時局的變化可是你要有一致性跟邏輯性要不然你會被全世界認定成為不確定因子跟不穩定因素這一段時間"},{"start":10032.29,"end":10053.87,"text":"賴總統滿意度下滑很多人對兩岸是心中有質疑的是不安定的我希望尤其在520這一周年又沒有聽到有具體的方向這是我認為這是跟國家安全是有關的事情因為不管是你的盟友在看待這件事或者是國內關心兩岸大事的人民在關心這件事情他都需要看到完整而且一致性而且清晰的論述"},{"start":10054.831,"end":10075.953,"text":"這件事情大概不會是你單獨陸委會的事也不會只是海基會的事情但是整個政府團隊你的步調要一致你的態度要清楚國人才會安定這是本席今天要花點時間來做政策提醒的部分另外因為時間超過我今天不多講經濟的部分一樣很重要現在我們面對全世界這個關稅衝擊美國跟你關稅等等要重新去談判"},{"start":10077.074,"end":10099.171,"text":"中國大陸的ECFA找收清單會不會因為兩岸關係的惡化或者是停滯不前有改變的可能性你作為兩岸關係的主要組織的單位有沒有做相關的一些兵棋推演這些內容我用書面的方式會後給你請你做詳細的答覆可以嗎可以 謝謝委員我們的政策主軸一貫而堅定就是堅定維護兩岸關係和平穩定的現狀變成和平穩定了好 OK 謝謝主委辛苦了好 謝謝委員"},{"start":10106.204,"end":10107.384,"text":"謝謝主席我們請陸委會邱主委邱主委請"},{"start":10129.591,"end":10133.352,"text":"主委好剛剛在陸委會的這個報告裡面你們一再的強調兩岸互不隸屬反對統戰滲透可是賴總統卻用這個大公司小公司的合併來去形容兩岸的競合"},{"start":10147.238,"end":10164.155,"text":"賴總統說中共中國是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司所以如果大的公司要併購小的公司大陸應該要提條件而不是台灣在提條件請問主委你是否認同賴總統所提的併購說的說法來形容兩岸合併與否"},{"start":10165.716,"end":10187.986,"text":"跟委員報告我想在許多地方他們有詮釋兩樣的互動重點在對等尊嚴要相互尊重而不是說你塞了一個我無法接受的前提這個前提是要消滅中華民國的前提這個前提是要台灣成為中華人民共和國的一部分我想"},{"start":10188.866,"end":10209.745,"text":"我們無法接受這種政治情形所以主委您認不認同賴總統公私併購說的說法我認同這個他的兩岸政策的主軸就是希望兩岸能夠在對等尊嚴能夠啟動健康有序的交流公私併購說的說法就是我們兩岸關係現在最新的立場嗎"},{"start":10211.413,"end":10224.7,"text":"我講他是一個比喻這希望兩岸能夠對等尊嚴相互尊重來開啟任何健康有序的交流那請問一下併購說是不是意味著賴政府同意統一呢"},{"start":10228.488,"end":10240.132,"text":"不必過度解讀那請問要怎麼解讀我剛剛說了就是對等尊嚴我們一直呼籲中國當中一個重要的事情就是正式中華民國的過關事實存在在針對訪談的時候提出這樣的併勾說的說法那請問我們要怎麼解讀"},{"start":10247.677,"end":10265.405,"text":"我們的解讀就是兩岸互動要在對等尊嚴相互尊重請問一下剛剛主委已經有提到我看很多委員在提針對這個大陸的我們台灣的藝人在大陸的一些轉發的人就說應該要處罰應該要這個可能違反什麼相關的規定那請問一下"},{"start":10267.306,"end":10282.821,"text":"賴總統這樣的言論是不是以默許自己可以當作是中國的一部分只是在談價格跟條件這樣有沒有違反你剛剛講的建議委員不要這個過度延伸的解讀啦我們最主要還是對等尊嚴相互尊重你不認同賴總統的併購說的說法是嗎"},{"start":10286.625,"end":10311.819,"text":"不要外延到那種意義的去解讀因為我覺得很奇怪喔我們只要簡單的一句話就會被你們扣上什麼賣台啦親中賣台的大帽子總統都已經講了說可以併購了幾乎就等於說是只要你價格談出來你只要價格好我就可以來併購我那這樣子的言行你們還認為我們不必過度解讀那為什麼可以繼續收官放火不許百姓連登"},{"start":10313.82,"end":10335.689,"text":"你要用文明的價值跟方式來說服台灣你的對台政策而不是不答應我前提我就文攻武嚇我想這個也是中國大陸被國際社會被民主國家圍堵的原因主委那請問一下以後我們可不可以都可以提到這個我們不要提統一我們就提併購這樣可以嗎"},{"start":10339.093,"end":10355.968,"text":"就是我們也會這樣提啊那不管是合意併購或者是敵意併購比如說武力統一我們就算是敵意併購和平統一就算是這個合意併購以後我們是不是都可以用併購來代替統一這樣的字眼這樣就不會有事呢委員不用用這個公私併購來看待兩岸的"},{"start":10358.73,"end":10386.396,"text":"這個互動我們還是強調賴總統這樣的言行其實就讓大家都會覺得會讓國際社會覺得誤以為台灣已經在準備變賣主權了我覺得賴總統這段時間的這個言論大家知道賴總統不是這個意思那是什麼意思請你說就是你中國大陸要對台灣的對台政策要尊重要正視我們中華民國客觀事實存在你要用文明的方式"},{"start":10387.927,"end":10404.974,"text":"來用文明的方式就可以併購是嗎不是 而是你不能軍機線擾台你不能外交打壓經濟脅迫社會滲透一連串的認知作戰灰色地帶侵擾我現在請教的主委就是針對賴總統的併購說您認不認為他這個部分有失言他只是一個比喻我剛剛說過了那你認不認同"},{"start":10415.865,"end":10429.916,"text":"他是在強調對岸應該要以對等尊嚴相互尊重他要的是一個程序正義以後反正我們就是都可以講併購就是大公司可以來併購小公司只要條件談得攏"},{"start":10431.237,"end":10436.44,"text":"建議委員不要這樣無限上綱解讀我覺得你這應該是跟總統講不是跟我講第二個就是剛剛我們也聽到很多委員就是請教這個主委就是你現在有發了一個通知建議我們的政府官員不要出席海峽論壇剛剛也有民進黨委員特別提到去年代表這個到"},{"start":10456.412,"end":10471.72,"text":"雲林縣長張立善參加海峽論壇他特別提到那請問您知道去年張立善縣長去參加海峽論壇主要是做什麼嗎他主要是要去行銷雲林的農特產品為我們弱勢的農漁民找出路"},{"start":10472.719,"end":10480.842,"text":"所以說您現在說好不建議我們這些政府可以出席了那是不是就針對這些農漁民我們連幫他找出連幫他行銷農作產品都不能做了呢跟委員報告我們是建議這樣你如果挑這個他海峽論壇去那他設定的這個統戰平台"},{"start":10494.986,"end":10518.627,"text":"那我們也想問他有設定說不讓我們行銷農特產品嗎沒有啊張縣長也在這個海峽論壇的公開的這個這個發表當中他也提到了我們雲林我想他可以挑其他的時間去為什麼不能這個時候去因為這個是他張開來的一個統戰平台嘛你沒有自主性你就任他這個安排"},{"start":10519.467,"end":10542.587,"text":"張立善縣長提到要行銷我們的農特產品大陸也沒有要求他不准說所以這有什麼說我們還受到他的一些約束其實我覺得不逼我想剛剛主委一直提到我們要健康有序的交流你也一直強調兩岸要交流可是做法卻是背道而馳那我請教一下如果今年有縣市政府提出要去參加海峽論壇您會不會核准"},{"start":10544.665,"end":10570.064,"text":"我跟委員報告我們是建議他不出席但是他如果堅持要出席我們就會跟他規勸相關的風險請他做好風險的準備所以如果他遵守相關的規定的話你要否認我們兩岸的規範我們也會呼籲他要重視我們台灣人的民意注意社會觀感 國際視聽"},{"start":10572.605,"end":10576.888,"text":"共同來維護台灣整體的利益也就是說只要剛剛您說這些相關規定我們這些縣市政府只要符合跟你們申請的話你們是會核准的是嗎我們會來看他申請的室友啦比如說你說要去推薦隆特產品"},{"start":10590.077,"end":10605.827,"text":"那我們就會問說你上次去推薦隆特產品真的有賣得很好嗎還是各位 賣得好不好我覺得你陸委會也要負很大的責任如果你不讓兩岸關係變成這樣的兵凶戰危的話也不會造成這樣的一個對立所以我覺得你把這個題目這樣問題丟出來我覺得非常的失職因為賣得好不好不是單方面的那我們還是要爭取每一個可以行銷隆特產品的我們希望兩岸政常檢查有序的交流應該去統戰化"},{"start":10618.956,"end":10625.52,"text":"不敢說一套是真正要拿出誠意來好不好我覺得農漁民已經非常弱勢了好不容易有這麼大一個市場這麼好的一個平台可以去行銷農特產品請陸委會不要干擾也不要斷了我們農民的生計斷的是中國大陸說斷就斷讓農民血本無歸這就是有風險所以我們要跟地方政府交往的話我覺得當然有風險但是呢事實上只要核准我覺得只要只要合乎規定也不該不核准我們會提醒"},{"start":10648.953,"end":10655.579,"text":"我們謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝徐益臻委員下一位我們請吳啟明委員質詢好 召委我們與會同仁請我們海基會我們吳董事長吳董事長有請"},{"start":10680.799,"end":10705.521,"text":"吳董事長你好吳董事長你到那個海基會從去年到現在在海基會我看你也是新聞人還有你一些經歷都是非常的完整也非常的辛苦所以我今天是再次的肯定你但是我們海基會扮演的角色是非常的作用"},{"start":10707.082,"end":10726.52,"text":"你看啊我還看到你的文章是中道和平共存共榮的兩岸的理念那展開兩岸關係深層的思考以穩健的立場今天跟你恢復兩岸的對話那我們賴清德總統昨天在記者也特別的"},{"start":10727.3,"end":10753.653,"text":"重申兩岸還是要再交流那未來主委那個董事長未來我們兩岸這一邊的交流情形你看因為我們從2016年2016年兩岸的制度化的都已經停擺那我們是否能再恢復兩岸的交流我請我們董事長來做說明一下好不好"},{"start":10757.135,"end":10762.579,"text":"剛才一開始的時候我跟各位報告33年來兩岸的交流從未中斷我們甚至於統計數目是33年來交流所產生的事物"},{"start":10776.226,"end":10797.138,"text":"經過海紀委處理,多達878萬多件像去年就多達30萬4千多件所以跟委員報告的交流部分從來沒停止也許可以這樣講,兩岸政府不好但是老百姓要結婚還是要結婚呢?三人要賺錢還是要賺錢呢?終止的是對話"},{"start":10802.103,"end":10826.605,"text":"對話所謂對話就是海際會跟對岸的對口單位海協會對話中止是2016年開始他的理由是我們不接受九二共識到現在為止也是這個理由可是我們政府是認為九二共識裡頭沒有中華民國的位置"},{"start":10828.871,"end":10850.725,"text":"我們是這樣不接受不過我個人認為交流、對話、和平這三個都是連結在一起的所以應該窮盡辦法不過我是了解到社外的關係隨時變化所以審慎樂觀"},{"start":10854.052,"end":10880.025,"text":"對 因為本期比較關心的就是從2016年我們就終止了兩岸的對話那我是希望說在吳董事長你的提倡就是中道和平共存共榮的理念能恢復兩岸的對話以及兩岸的交流這是我們是比較關心的因為我們兩岸還是要處於大家共存共榮的"},{"start":10884.086,"end":10905.335,"text":"就是這個角色一定要扮演好那這也是我們吳董事長所關心的那至於說30幾年來共同在我們服務的案件就有800多萬件那證明我們海際會扮演的角色還是非常重要比如說我們的對岸的海協會"},{"start":10906.415,"end":10917.099,"text":"要怎樣透過關係怎樣有一個我們的管道來保持這個暢通的溝通管道這一點應該是比較重要吧我剛才有報告 裡頭有一句話就是兩會對話中斷但傳話暢通那麼這些傳話"},{"start":10936.275,"end":10949.826,"text":"也許在某一個時間會發生效用到現在為止沒有效用不過我的職責就是想辦法去恢復所以很認真在做"},{"start":10951.087,"end":10975.997,"text":"好啦我們共同的努力共同期待因為畢竟我們台商還有很多都在中國大陸他們一些的服務案件我們還是要照樣的去運作這是我們兩岸的共存共榮的理念啦好謝謝我們董事長辛苦你了真的很辛苦好謝謝好請我們入委會邱主委有請"},{"start":10980.12,"end":11001.918,"text":"主委好好 主委好主委本席比較關心的就是我們大陸的配偶因為我們三個月要繳交大陸的戶籍的處級證明台灣有很多是我們大陸的新娘的外配其實我們那時候"},{"start":11003.547,"end":11022.886,"text":"移民署要寄一萬兩千多件那你一寄出來你整個海基會兩百線全部都報滿那這樣我就是要求說我們陸委會是不是一個政策下去跟移民署還有我們海基會還有我們陸委會大家要溝通是不是"},{"start":11024.755,"end":11047.453,"text":"坤坯或是他們他們現在還面臨一個問題就是因為過了已經一二十年一二十年你不叫他當處級有的人事地務都變了所以說在這個部分我是說我們還要有一個配套再來實施要怎樣來扶"},{"start":11050.957,"end":11065.062,"text":"來來來來輔導他們可以取得我們更更加合法完整不然你又煮了要再回去的時候有的都是一二十年這個部分是請我們陸委會要去考量"},{"start":11066.685,"end":11089.07,"text":"謝謝委員 這個非常感謝我們對於陸配有關於依法要把這個對岸除籍證明拿回來以確保他台灣的身份那當然這是依法行政那我們是在疫情期間發現疫情期間有很多剛結婚的人無法回去我們基於人道立場"},{"start":11090.73,"end":11109.097,"text":"不能說三個月內一定要把初期證明拿回來這個是不可能那疫情之後我們就協助這些沒有完成初期證明拿回來的這些陸配開始協助他們然而我們就開始清查以往的案例發現我們總共台灣有36萬"},{"start":11116.801,"end":11143.619,"text":"對結婚我們發出去的身份證有14萬張但是拿回出去證明只有13萬份還有1萬的這個差距到底是怎麼了為什麼沒有落實執法那所以我們發現包括過去的在2004年那時候我們兩條立和大一個翻修那個之前也沒有回去所以我們從去年10月就開始宣導清查的作業"},{"start":11144.56,"end":11168.294,"text":"其實已經完成了第一階段第二階段了那也讓我們陸配在兩岸間因為我們兩岸條例是一種單一身份的制度這個是維繫兩岸人流人別重要的基礎如果這個被破壞的話我們無法進行兩岸的交流所以我們想說"},{"start":11169.495,"end":11192.008,"text":"這個事情是繼續蓋下來呢還是我們勇敢的面對問題承擔責任找出解決問題的方法把三十年來的問題把解決掉所以我們跟委員一樣的想法要有一個完整的配套措施那對於現在不方便的還有資料不清楚的或者說他刑方不"},{"start":11192.768,"end":11208.655,"text":"不變的或是年邁低收入戶的我們都有一些替代方案那有些人現在也許比如說他在懷孕他在就學就業或是人在監獄裡面我們都有一些延長的方案只要"},{"start":11209.355,"end":11230.31,"text":"他有任何自愛難行我們包括海基會、移民署、陸委會都會盡最大的努力來協助他完成符合我們法律的要求我們也想說他在台灣的身份一定是合法的他才有可能最後安居樂業這是我們的初衷那我們持續的關懷、輔導、協助這個都不變"},{"start":11233.854,"end":11250.509,"text":"好謝謝主委因為在我們的選區在我們新北市還是很多我們的陸配他們遇到的問題那我們還是來協助他們來取得一個委員也可以把你個案提供給我們協助好的好謝謝我們邱主委謝謝謝謝吳委員謝謝吳清明委員下一位我們請徐信委員質詢"},{"start":11267.314,"end":11271.466,"text":"好謝謝主席本席有請海基會董事長吳董事長吳董事長有請"},{"start":11281.088,"end":11304.964,"text":"好 董事長好剛剛您在業務報告的時候還有剛剛吳啟明委員質詢的時候您都親口的說出了兩岸對話的管道中斷但是傳話的管道暢通那本席想要請教那是誰授意你傳話"},{"start":11309.113,"end":11337.214,"text":"沒有人授意我傳話沒有人授意你傳話 你說傳話我沒有主動要人家去傳話傳話人都是主動來找我的我認為這對兩岸合作有幫助你是說傳話人主動找你 他主動找你沒有人要你傳話 所以我們中央政府沒有人要你去傳話對 沒有那你怎麼知道傳話管道暢通"},{"start":11338.817,"end":11347.895,"text":"我說很多人基於好意基於誰住的意思主動找我"},{"start":11349.282,"end":11377.349,"text":"說他們可以幫忙傳話那你認為可以傳話嗎兩岸之間可以傳話嗎這個事情很重要你要讓我完整的表達可是你要掌握時間我們時間有限你盡量重點好不好我絕對耀眼不凡我說沒有人唆遣我跟對方傳話"},{"start":11379.667,"end":11394.626,"text":"可是因為我認為對話的管道中斷的情況之下那麼有人傳話只有好處沒有壞處不不不兩岸怎麼可以暗度成長絕對不能傳話"},{"start":11397.234,"end":11411.458,"text":"兩岸不能夠有一條不透明、不合法、不負責任的兩岸密室協商管道 絕對不行那董事長請您先暫停就先等一下 我們請邱主委好不好邱主委有請邱主委你好邱主委 請問兩岸之間可以用傳話嗎"},{"start":11422.315,"end":11443.869,"text":"委員是這樣的 我想我們兩岸過去都有你不要浪費我時間 我時間真的不多啦好不好我們既有的溝通聯繫機制我們都維持住啦那包括我們 那我就請問你可以私下傳話嗎兩岸可以有私下傳話的行為嗎 請你回答本席我想我們有很多的學者去大陸"},{"start":11445.024,"end":11461.035,"text":"看到中國大陸的你不能這樣兩岸到底可以私下傳話的行為嗎你就回答可以嗎我想他們有很多的建議建議歸建議我現在在問你兩岸可以有私下傳話的行為嗎"},{"start":11465.347,"end":11477.298,"text":"連這個都沒辦法回答喔不是你講那個私下傳話是什麼意思是法律的定義還是說我們日常兩岸互動的日常那如果是兩岸互動的日常當然"},{"start":11481.281,"end":11489.988,"text":"互動那不叫傳話因為這個出自於我們海基會董事長說兩岸的溝通管道中斷對話兩岸的對話管道中斷但是傳話的管道暢通這件事嚴重啊所以我針對你我就針對董事長這句話你覺得OK嗎"},{"start":11504,"end":11521.989,"text":"台商朋友像海基會經常接受很多台商朋友他們都會反映中國大陸的一些想法你接受反映這個不叫傳話也有很多的學者也有很多工協會的理事長啊負責人啊你不要再浪費本席的時間了所以政府有沒有授權傳話我們截至目前為沒有官方授權的"},{"start":11528.479,"end":11542.717,"text":"但是他們熱心跟你講這個是很多來避免誤解誤判我們要肯定兩岸之間你是指對岸官方來講不是我們官方傳話過去是哪一個"},{"start":11543.598,"end":11571.699,"text":"我是說這一種很自然的來給你反映意見的來傳對岸的想法這個很多啦但是沒有我們授權叫他去我們並沒有授權所以本席在這裡就是要釐清因為剛剛董事長在業務報告還有就是在報告的時候還有答詢的時候就一直強調所以你應該也認同兩岸之間不能夠有密室協商吧"},{"start":11572.259,"end":11589.164,"text":"那當然所以民進黨也不能施設任何所有的傳達我們都要體制透明否則我們怎麼知道請你私下傳某件事結果你講另外一件事而且所謂的賣台這個就是賣台"},{"start":11591.2,"end":11603.852,"text":"我們也很想知道賴清德總統說大公司併購小公司這件事是不是已經有私下在互相傳話"},{"start":11605.958,"end":11632.335,"text":"有沒有 我想委員就不要過度的衍生也做不必要的解讀其實它就是兩岸之間互動我們覺得應該要對等尊嚴 相互尊重而不要你提出一個前提你現在講對了 我現在在問說你私下傳話你不能私下傳話沒有這個問題 也沒有授權的問題所以沒有政府授權傳話這件事"},{"start":11635.867,"end":11662.558,"text":"其實目前為止是沒有授權的那未來也不可以吧要看情勢的發展只要對國家有利對兩岸有利要看情勢的發展所以對兩岸有利國家有利你們就可以密室協商喔當然我們會有一定的程序你可能忘記了民進黨政府多次強調兩岸無密室協商結果入委會主委說這個要看情勢而定"},{"start":11662.978,"end":11665.059,"text":"第四條之四,未經同意不得與大陸地區的機關法人團體或其他機構協商簽署。"},{"start":11683.687,"end":11696.803,"text":"所以你這個絕對不能密室協商沒有這個空間沒有密室協商一定是法制作業的你不能說看情況未來不管什麼情況都要體制透明而且要受到整個我們的監督"},{"start":11697.742,"end":11724.942,"text":"這是必然的這是必然好最後浪費我真的蠻多時間那再來就是賴總統最近有指示國安團隊要對在野黨這個簡報國安情勢本席對這點要肯定這是正確的一步所以我們但是呢我們認為這一步不能停留在形式你要能夠深化成為制度化的朝野安全對話機制是"},{"start":11726.483,"end":11747.49,"text":"那所以有沒有考慮要建立一個國安共識平台跟委員報告這個目前有關於這個像我們在野黨領袖做這個國安簡報目前是由我們國安會正在作業當中我會把這個委員的意見跟他們反映"},{"start":11748.15,"end":11765.444,"text":"對好我們也很希望朝野之間我們在分歧中找到團結我們國安一定是朝野一致面對不分藍綠是的好大家有共識最後最後因為剛剛吳清明委員也有提到那我想很多區域委員都有碰到"},{"start":11766.604,"end":11780.95,"text":"現在主委口口聲聲要捍衛兩岸單一戶籍制度我們沒有反對這個但是你有沒有覺得做法上很擾民有沒有感受到有沒有接受到這樣很多的有我也跟委員這個確實是超過30年來"},{"start":11784.131,"end":11809.466,"text":"的這個整個問題我們一起解決其實快要到最後面了我們同意要用關懷柔性的方式完整的配套措施我們會主動我們現在除了打電話進來解決之外我們現在還要主動走出去很多的這方面的座談會來舉辦你那個制度做法執行面可不可以想得更完善是是是我們朝這個方面來努力好謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝徐信委員"},{"start":11815.825,"end":11826.956,"text":"下一位我們請陳培育委員質詢好謝謝主席那有請陸委會主委邱主委謝謝邱主委有請"},{"start":11844.655,"end":11867.663,"text":"邱主委剛剛徐信義委員特別問到兩岸有沒有這個所謂的私下傳話有沒有這個密室協商但是我很好奇身為國家重要的民意代表中央等級的民意代表立法委員如果整團十幾個人在野黨帶去密室協商關起門來講什麼我們都不知道身為陸委會可以怎麼協助我們國人確保這件事情是沒有安全疑慮的"},{"start":11868.41,"end":11891.511,"text":"跟委員報告 我們一直很期待立法院能夠提報涉密的委員去中國大陸依照我們兩岸條例第九條相關的機制來做許可審查但是我們一直沒有 除了五院 除了立法院沒有提報 其他都已經提報了"},{"start":11891.971,"end":11910.32,"text":"好很可惜喔不過確實民進黨團在這件事情上我們已經有相關表達立場我們認為我們完全尊重您的建議因為五院都必須要同等對待面對敵外境外敵對勢力這件事情我認為在野黨應該也要一起支持不過因為剛剛是徐馨瑋問的這一題我就忍不住好奇喔國民黨的"},{"start":11911.58,"end":11925.453,"text":"總召帶著國民黨委員去這件事情我認為有相關的國安疑慮不過這不是我今天的問題我要跟您分享另外一個可能在你們過往的涉及業務範圍裡面沒有意識到這裡也有國安危機在2022年當時呢直攔高雄鋼鐵人"},{"start":11926.274,"end":11949.808,"text":"港资案这件事情我不知道你有没有印象2022年那你们处理的方法非常明快果决那面对陆资跟港资要进驻台湾运动团队我不知道后续你们有没有其他的掌握那我这个指控其实是其来有自事实上这几年开始我们看到非常非常多的中资他们花很多钱开始大举收购世界各地的球队"},{"start":11950.188,"end":11964.234,"text":"我們都知道收購球隊絕對不是只是為了收購球隊它相關政治文化的配套其實是綁在一起的這個過往的滲透手法其實全世界都已經看得非常清楚了在去年5月我們辦公室收到了一個陳情來自於國立台灣體"},{"start":11967.035,"end":11980.753,"text":"在台中再次强调台中的国立台湾体育运动大学他们在2024年把台湾以及足球联赛的参赛资格从学校端这边转卖给峰会体育有限公司"},{"start":11982.011,"end":11996.925,"text":"同時在去年的5月31號中華足協也做了這個公告當時我們辦公室收到這個陳情之後呢來下一張我們當然要積極跟教育部了解台體大怎麼可以做這樣的事情怎麼可以把足球協會以及聯賽的參賽資格還有球員的權利轉讓給民間公司到底內部審核發生了什麼事情"},{"start":12004.672,"end":12017.219,"text":"當時教育部高教師去做一些行政調查當然現在調查結果我們是不滿意的我們辦公室後續會再持續追蹤因為我們來看一下這個公司到底是什麼樣的公司來下一張"},{"start":12019.514,"end":12031.51,"text":"好那這個是相關的合約內容就長成這樣好主委你看一下那那個乙方也就是峰會體育有限公司的代表者是馮世文那這個案子真的非常非常的誇張當時在轉讓這個權利的時候呢簽名就只有球隊教練一個人"},{"start":12035.956,"end":12062.917,"text":"是這個事情爆發出來之後發現副校長跟校長才知道當然學校不是您所主管的業務沒關係我們往下看馮世文是誰呢馮世文是來自於峰會體育有限公司的代表人但是他同時也是另外港資跟中資的發言人相關的工作如果我們往下繼續追查好下一張我們懷疑國立大學球隊疑似遭到港資收購我們認為陸委會在這件事情上要進一步了解並且掌握狀況不知道主委你有沒有聽過這個新聞"},{"start":12066.52,"end":12079.674,"text":"這個鋼鐵人那個籃球隊鋼鐵人那個沒關係你一定知道對那個反正這個如果有我們國立大學的球隊被港資或中資收購這是我們轉讓出賽權利對你們第一次聽到對不對"},{"start":12083.458,"end":12088.181,"text":"我們辦公室希望透過公開的質詢讓陸委會知道這個事情我要再次強調他絕對不會只是個案我認為有非常多的可能性在後續會發生怎麼說呢事實上我們來看這個我幫你整理這個表格的意思是這樣"},{"start":12102.91,"end":12131.604,"text":"不是只有足球事實上排球在台灣由單項協會所主辦的企業聯賽他們都有機會代表台灣去參加所謂國際體育組織所辦理的亞洲賽事也就是他們會代表台灣參加國際賽事而這些球隊背後可能是中資或港資就日委會在維持台灣國安的角度你們認為有沒有疑慮啊"},{"start":12132.464,"end":12145.61,"text":"還是你覺得沒關係這個案子反正不管是港資中資按照我們兩條例或是港澳關係條例這種投資都必須要由我們許可"},{"start":12146.238,"end":12169.657,"text":"这个叫投审会机制但是回到刚刚台体大那个完全不用走投审会机制它就是私下就转让出去了因为它是学校的球队所以我认为未来会发展出来的样态可能会非常多元在我们还没有意识到这里已经有渗透的可能性的时候它事实上已经发生了怎么这么说呢因为事实上在台中明后年即将落成一个足球园区"},{"start":12170.956,"end":12187.242,"text":"而這個大型的足球園區他到時候一定需要相關團隊去經營所以假設我用一個比較壞心來想如果我今天是要做滲透的人我在台中先拗有一個球隊我到時候是可不可以去經營這個園區而我拗有這個球隊背後老闆其實是港資跟中資"},{"start":12188.622,"end":12202.057,"text":"所以我要提醒陸委會今天真的是友善的提醒來我們來看一下關於這個台體大的案子我們辦公室後續會願意把相關資料交給陸委會我們希望你們從國安的角度協助我們去理解這個案子後續其他的問題"},{"start":12203.499,"end":12225.132,"text":"第二个关于中国企业在国际的收购持有运动团队的做法我们想要拜托陆委会有没有机会在三个月内协同教育部针对台湾的职业还有企业联赛球队的所有权资金来源进行掌握跟制度性的监控跟相关报告因为这可能过往不在你们的业务规范或者是想象的内容之内"},{"start":12226.54,"end":12251.563,"text":"我想中資來台投資我想這個應該都不在許可範圍那我們對於中資來台港資來台除了這個投資許可之外按照兩條例第40條之一他要成立分公司和辦事處那我們對這個查處我們首先要跟主管機關來了解"},{"start":12252.023,"end":12277.619,"text":"所以這種形態比較特別對 沒錯我們就說台體大這個案子非常特別所以我們是不是來跟主管機關一起來了解這個案子再跟委員來回覆好 那還有我剛剛說的這些企業聯賽的部分我覺得因為之後我們運動部會有所謂全民體育署我們會有更多運動的資源在這些所謂企業聯賽當中這也是我們所擔心的如果台體大只是他們試水溫的一個起點一個敲門磚而我們行政機關都沒有發現後續他們可能就發現這裡有破口"},{"start":12281.641,"end":12299.342,"text":"他們就可以從這裡切入是好嗎好謝謝委員提供好各位那我們再把相關資訊跟你們討論好謝謝陳委員謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝下一位我們請何欣淳委員質詢何欣淳委員何欣淳委員不在下一位我們請李坤澄委員質詢"},{"start":12309.546,"end":12311.715,"text":"謝謝主席我們請邱主委邱主委有請"},{"start":12317.484,"end":12340.186,"text":"主委好 賴總統日前接受民敵選讀的專訪他有提到大公司跟小公司之間比喻兩岸關係我看了他接受專訪的原文他就說中國是比較大的公司 台灣是比較小的公司如果你要騙我的公司 你要提條件"},{"start":12341.087,"end":12365.968,"text":"不是台灣的一體條件 讓你說要或是不要 而且還說你一定要變成我的一部分然後呢 這個都沒有任何其他的做法這不行啦 台灣是民主社會 人民是國家的主人這人民不會接受的 大概那段專訪的原文是這樣子那我想請教一下 身為陸委會主委 你怎麼去詮釋這個總統會提到這一段 大公司跟小公司合併的問題我覺得從兩岸互動來看 就是對等尊嚴"},{"start":12367.591,"end":12389.028,"text":"而且還要真正有善意尤其現在兩岸的癥結之所在就是中國大陸不肯正視中華民國存在的客觀事實他提出了協商的前提就是在一中原則的九二共識"},{"start":12390.678,"end":12406.729,"text":"像這樣消滅中華民國 矮化台灣的這個政治潛艇我們是沒有辦法接受的我想國人也無法接受我們每次民調都有超過七成以上的主流民意反對政府接受"},{"start":12407.765,"end":12429.62,"text":"中共的這個前提來與中國大陸做協商那當然兩岸就因此而無法官方互動所以我們就希望中國大陸還是要回到對等尊嚴的立場正視中華民國事實存在也要正視我們台灣人民對於民主生活的這個"},{"start":12432.017,"end":12445.422,"text":"這個強烈要求這樣才能夠促進兩岸良性互動最主要從這個比喻我覺得是要對台灣有善意那其實目前為止我們沒有看到善意的呈現是比較令人遺憾所以主委認為說總統這個比喻就是說"},{"start":12448.563,"end":12463.89,"text":"這個中國對台灣要有善意那台灣呢就是由人民來決定台灣的前途啦這不是說你今天要併我然後你什麼條件都沒有講然後就是台灣一定要給中國那可是呢 總統這個說法呢受到在野黨的批判說你這個是提統一的條件啊是提那個賣台啊 你怎麼看"},{"start":12467.148,"end":12479.726,"text":"我想這個是過度解讀啦都沒有回到整個文本的脈絡去理解總統的談話那這樣的一些過度解讀我想是不必要的"},{"start":12480.967,"end":12485.029,"text":"總統520談話 大家也會期待總統就職一周年在兩岸這方面會不會有談話 談話內容大家會注意但是我們發現這次總統520談話沒有主動提到兩岸的問題"},{"start":12502.158,"end":12513.125,"text":"然後呢 這個是有記者在問的時候 他在做回答那有時候說跟不說 都有他的意涵在那你主委怎麼看就是說那這一次的這個520的這個就職一周年的總統的這個談話裡面沒有特別提到兩岸還是說這因為在3月13號這個總統在這個國安會議之後已經有說過了這個國安的五大威脅還有17項的陰陰策略這個有這層關係嗎"},{"start":12526.946,"end":12549.499,"text":"我想總統從他上任以來有關他兩岸政策其實談的架構跟內容都蠻豐富的那特別你也提到這個3月13號也有因應中共這個國安威脅統戰的17項因應策略也不斷的在重申那也再度的強調兩岸應該要這個透過"},{"start":12556.358,"end":12579.097,"text":"如果說以人民福祉為念的話兩岸和平互利互惠共榮共存應該是我們努力的目標也應該透過對等尊嚴進行健康有序的交流跟對話共同迎向和平共榮的目標我想他這個善意不斷的提出來所以我們就呼籲中國大陸一定要正視"},{"start":12580.498,"end":12598.37,"text":"我們中華民國存在的客觀事實要傾聽去解讀用心解讀我們所傳達的善意讓兩岸能夠回到這個相向而行的這個途徑我想才能夠真正改變兩岸關係那你覺得中國那邊有聽到了嗎"},{"start":12599.27,"end":12617.211,"text":"我想就讓他慢慢地去改變畢竟他是一個極權專制的體制他過去對台的政策向來也沒有改變他不改變他的僵化思維那我們就要有戰略定力我們不斷地去影響他"},{"start":12619.333,"end":12632.209,"text":"他內外部的影響我們希望我們能夠營造一個善良方 理性方能夠希望他能夠真正的面對台灣能夠用"},{"start":12634.191,"end":12660.708,"text":"就是對等尊嚴的立場來跟我們交流互動官方互動可能比較困難但是民間的互動應該把它正常化那我們在17項因應的策略也強調我們希望跟中國大陸進行各種健康有序的交流我們希望能夠去統戰化那麼去政治化去風險化讓我們很多民眾"},{"start":12661.608,"end":12681.257,"text":"去中國大陸也能夠在維護他的安全的情況底下做好各種的提醒讓兩岸的交流沒有這些風險要降低風險這就是我們努力的目標所以我們不是不交流我們是怕沒有正常健康有序交流的機會那所以主委認為說這個總統在520這個"},{"start":12683.838,"end":12706.515,"text":"就是週年談話沒有特別提到這個兩岸問題沒有什麼特別的含義就對了該講的之前都已經有提過了是好 那我最後再問一個就是說根據這個陸委會的臉書這個就是說從去年1月到今年的4月30號有102名國人赴中國大陸在失聯遭留置盤查或是關押那請問一下這個數字102人他目前的樣態是怎麼樣"},{"start":12710.618,"end":12733.343,"text":"是失聯了還是被關押了還是說是怎麼樣這個有沒有進一步的訊息跟委員報告我們這個數字都是來跟我們報案的也有跟海基會報案那這個數字我們都有在統計這是有報案的數字對 但是我要跟委員報告沒有報案的數字搞不好更多"},{"start":12733.871,"end":12757.215,"text":"你認為那個黑數大概有多少?我覺得那個黑數可能是相當驚人的那這是有公文報案的相當驚人是十倍還是百倍?這個很難評估不過我們相信沒有報案的應該更多不過我願意在這個報案裡面相關的樣態跟文報告也就是說撕簾的部分在這個102個有12位遭這個"},{"start":12761.696,"end":12788.469,"text":"留置盤查的有13位那遭路方關押的有70位目前是這些關押有70位那他們的理由是什麼有各種譬如說詐騙案件或其他的刑事案件或者是一些國安案件也是包括或是參加宗教活動因法律被關押的也有人"},{"start":12789.289,"end":12806.738,"text":"所以這些案件加起來有70人那我要跟委員報告剛剛也提到了這個黑數更多沒有跟我們報案更多所以我們那這部分該怎麼去處理是我們很重視我們國人賦入的人身安全這是最重要的"},{"start":12808.079,"end":12831.438,"text":"因為中國大陸一直吸納我們的民眾赴陸招待啦各種的統戰活動但是那個安全也是需要關注特別在成都二十二條之後國人赴陸的安全是明顯的升高連我們的一貫道親戚這個交流現在還沒回來那所以"},{"start":12832.159,"end":12856.748,"text":"我們要呼籲國人啊,赴陸一定要有安全的思考,要審慎的評估,做好安全的準備如果你還是要去的話,一定要像上我們陸委會,陸港澳,赴陸港澳登錄的系統你有登錄的資訊,多一份登錄就多一份安全萬一有什麼事情,我們可以找到聯繫的方式提供及時的援助"},{"start":12856.988,"end":12861.791,"text":"我們還是透過管道過去我們兩岸共同打擊犯罪以及私保互助的機制雖然陸方往往用政治理由"},{"start":12875.759,"end":12892.324,"text":"無法讓這個機制產生作用但是我們還是透過各種可能的管道去關切 是不是在關江那邊也希望陸方要重視這些人的司法人權也要跟他在台的家屬聯繫那我們陸委會"},{"start":12896.365,"end":12920.972,"text":"海基會都有一個專案會去每一個家庭去做各種的訪問提供必要的協助好時間有限先問到這邊謝謝主席謝謝主委謝謝委員謝謝相關資料請會後詳細提供好謝謝下一位我們請林俊憲委員林俊憲委員林俊憲委員不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在下一位我們請邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":12932.276,"end":12958.796,"text":"謝謝是不是邀請陸委會邱主委邱主委有請邱委員好謝謝主委主委辛苦了我想這個影響兩岸關係可操之在我們就是我們政策要規劃好要執行好非操之在己的部分就是中國內部的因素中國內部因素包括權力鬥爭第一個它這個經濟成長的情況"},{"start":12961.755,"end":12976.179,"text":"第三個就是社會穩定的狀況從這個角度來看今年以來啊今年以來中共高層中國高層這個權力鬥爭的狀況有沒有比去年更為激烈"},{"start":12977.779,"end":13003.26,"text":"根文報告這個中共高層如果以他們仍然強調八項規定反貪打腐那麼以今年這個副部級以上中管幹部落馬的人數有20位其中三位是正部級的我想這方面這以反貪"},{"start":13004.421,"end":13030.835,"text":"把重要的官員這個雙規的還是蠻嚴重的那這些指示大概是來自於許晉平嘛如果是正部級的所以許晉平對於處置這些他下面的這些官員他力道越大有可能造成更大的反彈那我看是他的力道從來沒有小過好像一年比一年更為強烈那您預估他的領導地位啊許晉平領導地位"},{"start":13034.184,"end":13034.607,"text":"會不會弱化"},{"start":13035.563,"end":13063.699,"text":"是 包括我們剛剛講的是一般的這個違反派上規定 反貪打腐的部分那麼尤其對軍方的高級將領的一一的去職從何偉東這個軍委的副主席開始那麼我們看到很多的軍事將領也因案被查那您剛剛有提到這個習近平是穩不穩那我 我們"},{"start":13065.28,"end":13089.809,"text":"我們判斷他還是權力很穩定都可以正常的出國他的行程還是大刀闊斧的進行內部的這個人員整數然後當然我覺得一定會某種程度會更多的反彈另外一個他執政基礎就是經濟成長經濟穩定那你看川普的關稅政策對美國當然勢必造成直接的衝擊"},{"start":13091.124,"end":13104.089,"text":"那經濟如果往下行往下修那會讓他的統治基礎執政基礎弱化是那您覺得這個今年或者到明年中國的經濟狀況會不會因此弱化從2022年中國大陸的經濟就不斷的惡化"},{"start":13110.051,"end":13136.556,"text":"2020年開始從它解封之後我想它復甦的力道經濟這個提振的預振法律仍然情勢在惡化加上這個您剛剛提到的跟美中之間的關稅戰以及未來的科技戰那麼我想中國大陸現在的經濟發展受到很大的壓力那加上我們從中國大陸的統計"},{"start":13139.556,"end":13162.532,"text":"數據來看一方面有很多統計數據都不真實也被蓋牌那也發現很多矛盾的地方那這個對外資的出走也是造成一個原因因為你這個前景不明數字失真他們無法繼續投資所以我們看外資一直在出走"},{"start":13162.972,"end":13184.165,"text":"外資出走投資不振所以經濟下行經濟惡化直接衝擊就是民生或者產業產業沒有上來民生往下行當然影響所有經濟成長的山下馬車都是老百姓如果對生活充滿了抱怨或者充滿了不公平"},{"start":13185.319,"end":13204.16,"text":"那他們當然是會直接衝擊到這個他們國家的社會穩定對不對那覺得他們社會穩定習近平的政權如果去維持現行的在經濟狀況那麼糟糕的情況之下他還能維持一定的控制讓他社會穩定他是用什麼方法呢"},{"start":13205.757,"end":13225.481,"text":"跟委員報告我們也了解習政權面臨到內外交迫空權的挑戰不管是你剛剛講的內部經濟面也引發了停工潮這個停工潮很快就變失業潮中國大陸現在每年有1200萬的大學畢業生要就業"},{"start":13229.822,"end":13252.772,"text":"非常的嚴重那這個就會有社會問題那對整個政權的穩定度就會產生影響不過我們也看到中國大陸各種的經濟工作包括也在積極的在創造更多的經濟的能量輔助經濟的這個穩定他們有四穩三保的一個政策"},{"start":13253.972,"end":13273.776,"text":"所以他們的不利因素包括經濟社會穩定包括他們政治權力鬥爭我想好像都沒有比過去有改善所以我們當然只能本身做最好的準備那一點點時間再請教海基會吳董事長吳董事長有請謝謝吳董事長還有邱志偉"},{"start":13280.305,"end":13302.479,"text":"就是說兩岸人民交流吳董事長是德高望重那對兩岸關係我想他是一個非常重要的這個董事長這個位置非常重要一定可以做很多事情就是兩岸人民交流我想請教邱主委今年一到四月國能附中的人數有沒有這個數字我們都有那比起去年同期是減少"},{"start":13311.132,"end":13334.351,"text":"跟去年差不多沒有旅行目的嘛都是商務嘛你說中國大陸來的不夠國人附中很多都是旅遊的也有也有旅遊,就沒有船客嘛對不對因為它自由行本來我們就是尊重人數比去年同期是降今年第一季今年一到四月應該是降嘛"},{"start":13339.518,"end":13365.183,"text":"1到3月是44萬如果以去年的話我們是277萬就是下降嘛有人說是不是為邦不入啦但是兩岸還是有某種程度不像商務啦或者這個人員的交流這個是存在的所以海紀委吳董事長這邊扮演很重要的角色啦但是第一個我考慮到人身安全國人富中他人身安全很重要那提到港澳"},{"start":13366.465,"end":13376.388,"text":"當然港澳目前變成一中化了你去香港澳門跟你去中國這個本土一樣因為我就不敢從香港轉機您認為我適合從香港轉機嗎"},{"start":13381.978,"end":13395.116,"text":"我想委員過去有從香港轉機的經驗不要不讓我入境對 並不愉快那我們也建議如果沒有必要 盡量不要那也希望委員要轉機"},{"start":13396.778,"end":13407.702,"text":"眷屬我覺得應該比較沒問題不過委員有需要都通知我們醫生那我們來幫你做安全評估第二個不用啦 我不會去啦"},{"start":13412.043,"end":13439.57,"text":"我想我們從我們進入香港我們要坦白就是說我們從這個香港開始有兩個國安法一個是港版國安法一個是他們的國安條例國安二法實施以來我們也很關注我們國人是不是入境有因為被國安室友被逮捕的截至目前為止還沒有案例出來"},{"start":13440.37,"end":13466.043,"text":"但是我們不能說就掉以輕心謝謝謝謝主委我想請教吳董事長就是吳董事長我想請教您對於當前兩岸關係您的看法是怎樣這個問題好大沒關係就是您個人很大我知道有沒有什麼具體的未來不知道一年內你覺得必須要完成的當前兩岸的這個關係就是"},{"start":13468.993,"end":13492.809,"text":"我們中華民國信仰和平主義中華人民共和國公開講還是無同實際的作為上我們沒有激進到大陸它不斷激進到台灣我們不搞衝突混亂它一直衝突混亂可是我認為中共慢慢的應該會發覺和平"},{"start":13499.257,"end":13508.638,"text":"還是對他比較好真要對台動武的話他也完蛋所以我對兩岸的和平發展我審慎樂觀"},{"start":13510.129,"end":13530.667,"text":"現在情況就這樣子好 謝謝董事長 謝謝邱志偉好 謝謝邱志偉委員下一位我們請陳樹越委員陳樹越委員 陳樹越委員不在下一位我們請林楚瑩委員林楚瑩委員 林楚瑩委員不在下一位我們請鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員 鄭振淺委員不在下一位我們請陳雪生委員質詢"},{"start":13539.414,"end":13542.616,"text":"謝謝主席,是不是請吳董事長吳董事長有請吳董事長早董事長以前在馬祖海基會沒有派人現在海基會有派個人在那邊嗎?您瞭解他吃什麼飯做什麼事嗎?吃什麼飯做什麼事"},{"start":13567.407,"end":13568.347,"text":"吃什麼飯?"},{"start":13568.347,"end":13568.908,"text":"做什麼事?"},{"start":13568.908,"end":13574.589,"text":"你有瞭解嗎?好 沒關係 底下的人來 誰?委員好 我是副秘書長李寶文 副秘書長你派的人是誰?目前派是一位誠信的專委在那邊做什麼事每天?"},{"start":13589.884,"end":13615.501,"text":"基本上他在這邊就是處理民眾諮詢的一個事項什麼 發員工薪水不是 不是發員工薪水是處理民眾各式各樣諮詢的事項兩岸人民相關的事項有沒有具體的工作內容我們給他的工作內容是包含就是說第一個 他必須每天彙整在馬祖當地兩岸事務的一個語情並且製作工作週報那第二個就是拜會地方有週報回來嗎"},{"start":13617.302,"end":13640.543,"text":"有是那拜會哪個地方的誰就我這邊所知道的是拜會過馬祖的紅十字會還有這個內政部的移民組的連江站相公所新移民協會還有馬祖海巡隊部法院地檢署地方媒體以及其他相關的媒體每天在拜會有什麼事具體的內容工作的內容項目"},{"start":13642.564,"end":13649.589,"text":"還包含文書驗證諮詢的服務文書驗證是他的範圍嗎文書驗證諮詢的服務諮詢喔我告訴你他才沒事做每天在網路上胡說八道寫什麼東西我告訴你啊寫說我們北竿機場改建他的配套你罵誰啊每天在網路上罵縣政府罵我們陳雪生立法委員"},{"start":13672.554,"end":13697.188,"text":"你要罵交通部部長嘛 叫他下台啊罵民航局嘛 局長叫他下台啊你罵縣政府每天在網路上攻擊這些幹什麼飯吃太多了 閒著沒事做是交通部跟民航局主政欸不是縣政府主政 也不是我主政欸我是民意代表而已欸每天在那邊搗蛋嘛 你懂了沒有"},{"start":13698.88,"end":13719.069,"text":"這地方有什麼幫助?幫了老闆你怎麼忙?什麼狗屁都沒做叫他到民進黨黨部去好了這跟保文這邊認知有點不太一樣事實上根據他所回報相關的資料董事長我不為難他這個人工作可以換一換吧不然他可以減薪他什麼出身的,馬上給他一個專門委員"},{"start":13725.413,"end":13748.903,"text":"公務員考試了嗎?第一個就是海基會並不需要公務員相關的資格第二個是他目前的薪水應該還不是啦但他的目前的薪資是臨時人員的薪資啦所以比較起來應該不是非常高的薪資做點正事嘛到那邊跟地方政府搗蛋啊"},{"start":13750.754,"end":13774.797,"text":"我們會請他強化...我們靠北海機場有經過評估的勒是不是?我們...我在那邊陳倍宇委員我也跟他講我們和睦相處齁我們共同為這個島上的人民努力這個也是我們的目標是不是?不是啊每天在網路上攻擊啊應該是這樣說啦就是我們會...我再發現的話齁我還會來天天來找你們算賬我跟你講"},{"start":13775.95,"end":13798.722,"text":"你們長官都不管了喔?如果委員有需求的話,歡迎隨時提出來這樣子,每三個月給我一次,他在做什麼事,好不好?我要看,我要看我等到預算我要看喔,你不要怪我把它刪掉囉再不違反我們內部規定的情況之下,可以提供給委員,這個沒有問題"},{"start":13800.646,"end":13823.869,"text":"違反你們什麼規定立法委員知道你們在那邊胡作非為胡作八道我不能講話私人的一個行為應該不在海基會工作的範圍之內假設他在網路上個人的發言他可以到台灣搞太陽花學運啦不要到馬祖那邊搞什麼運動啦我跟你講啦算七八糟啦如果這個是他個人私人的行為的話個人開除啊"},{"start":13825.56,"end":13844.684,"text":"你們不用考核的啊你們不用考核嗎考核的部分應該是根據他的工作成果沒有工作啊 做什麼他還跟中共打電話嗎他可以到對面去嗎我們會查清楚好啊 你請回 董事長謝謝還請邱主委邱主委有請陳委員你看陳某人向中共投入了嗎"},{"start":13855.342,"end":13882.997,"text":"我想委員愛鄉愛國大家都非常了解我們相識很多年了我也告訴過你我的祖先我的祖先我祖父祖母所有的親人我台灣沒有半個親人祖墳都在大陸以前都是中國對不對我們都是中國人講得好好的現在中國也不能講了"},{"start":13885.089,"end":13902.996,"text":"連打麻將五筒都不能自摸啊這什麼話嘛你說我們言論有什麼自由理想報告委員我們還是尊重國人他這個文化跟血緣的這個認同五一八他們招商會兩岸進門馬走都有去你們就提出監察委員說王安中民縣長在裡面什麼什麼什麼"},{"start":13914.741,"end":13940.711,"text":"沒有會議紀錄,有什麼會議紀錄啊我們也沒開會也沒幹什麼的委員我們有跟縣政府做很好的聯絡市長委員吃飽飯了嗎,不要亂寫啊不,我們也尊重監委的調查我們是在保護我們交流啦你能夠保護誰啊大陸老闆說的是你們能夠保護誰我們協助他不要違反現行的兩岸規定人被抓起來我馬上知道他的訊息你絕對不知道我告訴你"},{"start":13943.717,"end":13970.516,"text":"你們怎麼知道中共抓了什麼人在幹什麼,你不知道,我會知道喔但是我問你,我絕對不是中共同路人不是說中國國民黨黨籍的都是中共同路人這什麼話嘛我們支持兩岸交流,但是應該要去統戰兩岸交流啦我們龍馬的錯商會行之有年去那邊幹什麼呢就談一間我們酒怎麼樣賣到馬尾去免稅能夠入關是不是"},{"start":13971.488,"end":13988.669,"text":"變成福州的嗜酒,我們想賺點錢啊,是不是?我們學生交流兩岸互動,學生交流你怕我們被統戰?我這次去大陸啊,我告訴老公啊,你們統戰我是我在統戰你們,你搞清楚喔!馬祖被統戰了嗎?"},{"start":13990.941,"end":14000.067,"text":"福瑪搓衫會因為涉及到很多項目是跟公權力有關我們還是希望我們是說我們不要讓縣政府的人觸訪所以我們要協助他金門到了廈門就跑到北京去了我們有嗎都聽你們的指示嘛是不是"},{"start":14013.192,"end":14025.356,"text":"是我們很感謝縣政府我們中央地方一起協力我們去交流但是不要被統戰這一次五一長假我們來了多少人你有得到勤制嗎你說觀光客是嗎我告訴你二十幾個人一共二十幾個人丟臉了我跟你講金門去了一萬多個人為什麼人家不想來嘛"},{"start":14040.919,"end":14050.599,"text":"人家來一個團,你告訴我三分之一現在你們怎麼又變成五分之一啊?中共的官員變成五分之一三分之一,為什麼?"},{"start":14051.88,"end":14081.452,"text":"先讓他們進來嘛看看裡面的環境嘛當然馬祖很像被你們陸委會卡來卡去移民署怎麼卡我們都沒有卡我們都非常歡迎我們中國大陸的旅客到金門馬祖像金門是人數比較多我們也很想了解也協助了解為什麼你們開放的比金門還要早為什麼平均只有一天六個人我們也覺得很納悶好 邱主委"},{"start":14082.011,"end":14098.893,"text":"我再問你,陸配,人家辦了三十年了,都沒事,現在要回去查我告訴對面的國台辦宋主任,請他幫個忙他們基層的這一些台辦都已經調走了,換人退休死亡了,去哪裡拿?"},{"start":14101.005,"end":14128.315,"text":"民主大陸辦這個證那麼好辦嗎辦不出來啊應該沒有問題啦只要跟我們聯繫那我們也會替他聯絡對岸的公安派出所你不要把他當匪諜嘛沒有沒有我們是在幫助他合法取得台灣的身份不要被質疑那麼我們兩岸人流往來身份的這個單一戶籍制是最重要的一個基礎"},{"start":14129.275,"end":14155.865,"text":"你說外配對你們陸委會都大拇指嘛齁你一轉身就是這樣子我告訴你你一轉身就是這樣子你一來就是這樣子你聽懂我的意思吧我理解我理解但是我們是真心誠意的在協助關懷來協助我們陸配完成他那個法律的要求要人家發自內心的勒我要對你抱著感恩的心勒是不是"},{"start":14157.469,"end":14178.082,"text":"他現在對你們抱著仇恨的心你知道嗎你知道嗎那天為什麼他們遊行很多人是不敢來很多人不敢來怕被你們照相以後又弄回去了你懂了沒有我的情志告訴你我絕對比你正確我們在搞民意的是不是請你們注意一下好不好"},{"start":14186.494,"end":14212.954,"text":"還有陸委會的功能你要地方政府不要健康有序的交流你們中央陸委會跟海基會吳董事長當然在兩岸德高望重啦你說和平啊,我看很像不是這樣你說對等啊,怎麼對等法嘛他不會跟你對等的啦永遠不會跟你對等的啦台灣有一天被老美賣掉你都不知道,我告訴你"},{"start":14213.786,"end":14239.987,"text":"被老美賣掉,你不講你試試看看啊,台積電沒啦你被美國人賣掉你都不知道你要兩個人均衡發展嘛,是不是蔡英文當總統的時候有聲音嗎?沒有聲音啊,我想吳董事長你很清楚嘛是不是,講話要小心嘛誒,烏克蘭死多少人啊你們沒娶老婆的到烏克蘭去老婆一個人可以娶三個,我告訴你是這樣嗎?"},{"start":14242.932,"end":14252.622,"text":"現在連女生都不准出來了連女人都要去打仗陸委會的功能是什麼請坐陸委會的功能是什麼"},{"start":14254.048,"end":14280.828,"text":"沒有功能嘛 你在幹嘛我想我們自力維護兩岸關係和平穩定邱主任你不要跟我講官話啦不是官話 你講官話我也會講啊我們兩岸健康有序的交流幹什麼我也會講啊 講得很漂亮啊你說中國經濟很差很差很差我剛回來啊他們預防特朗普上去"},{"start":14282.062,"end":14310.598,"text":"早就在搞擴大內需了我跟你講沒有那麼慘全世界哪一個經濟不是在下滑的只有中國大陸嗎人家說習近平快死了,我看他健康得很走路跟我一樣有點慢你們不要這樣子搞古遙巴行之有年你們不要這樣子搞好不好我們是在協助地方政府也在保護他們不要觸法你已經讓步了,派民主黨去"},{"start":14311.772,"end":14333.867,"text":"民進黨不了,我心裡有感受,不是沒感受兩岸健康有序交流,沒有做任何會議紀錄,沒有幹什麼,你們為什麼這樣刁難但是不要觸法,我們是避免,比如說你剛剛說那個駙馬出商會,那個就有觸法的嚴重嫌疑那我也觸法了"},{"start":14335.001,"end":14361.685,"text":"我想我們監察院也在關注,我們應該協助地方政府可以交流,但是不要觸發我看我們沒有言論自由了,去大陸講話要小心喔搞不好就是匪諜去對面啦,人家中共官員也沒做什麼紀錄也沒幹什麼北京也沒有講說,你跟某某台灣官員見面要寫報告來,沒有啊我們這裡很嚴格"},{"start":14364.685,"end":14392.628,"text":"請你們注意一下好不好你不要把我當匪諜啦 我也不是匪諜我真的很生氣啊 邱主委我連人跟你打電話打了一個多鐘頭我真的很生氣我跟你講我們是很好的朋友欸怎麼搞成這個樣子咧我想我們出發點就是幫忙地方政府幫忙不要違法吳董事長你回去交代底下查一下齁你派個人在那邊幫我們地方政府嘛怎麼在跟我們搗戰每天咧"},{"start":14394.668,"end":14411.996,"text":"這怎麼可以這樣子搞啊 是不是我沒有監視他啊他的一舉一動 我們的鄉親都會跟我回報每個村 每個里 每個戶都會向我回報我那裡不是極權統治喔這是民心嘛 是不是好不好 謝謝主席對不起啊"},{"start":14415.033,"end":14428.684,"text":"這希望我們兩岸關係好一點對不對大家就不會這麼多的誤會要在這邊釐清好吧好謝謝陳學生委員的質詢下面請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在下面請蔡議員蔡議員蔡議員不在OK"},{"start":14429.344,"end":14449.057,"text":"跟委員會報告登記已發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢我們尋答到此結束高興樹莓委員丁學中委員牛雪婷委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢與未及答覆部分請相關單位於一周內以書面答覆並複製本會本會到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"16691","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16691","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373dc04fde1d52825d899b5fa2f296a93534a12e9ca99aa835c0ceb8f666409c94995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院主管預算(公務預算)解凍案6案。\n二、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案9案。\n三、處理114年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院單位預算解凍案1案。\n（5月21日及5月22日二天一次會））","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-21","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-21T08:29:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-21T12:57:00+08:00","duration":16021,"影片長度":"04:27:01","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 - 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中央研究院函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議二列以一一四年度第一幕一般行政預算編列三億三百一十二萬八千元"},{"start":2055.405,"end":2079.642,"text":"動結50萬元是中央研究院向立法院教育及文化委員會提出書面報告後使得動之三 中央研究院函為2014年度中央政府總預算決議三列以2014年度第二幕一般學術研究及評議預算編列74億6662萬元動結100萬元是中央研究院向立法院教育及文化委員會提出書面報告後使得動之"},{"start":2080.482,"end":2104.099,"text":"是 中央研究院函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議事略以一一四年度第二幕一般學術研究及評議第二節學術研究及人才培育向下基本行政工作維持費預算編列十一億九千八百二十九萬九千元 共結九百萬元是中央研究院向立法院教育及文化委員會提出書面報告後 使得動之"},{"start":2105.615,"end":2132.249,"text":"五 中央研究院函為一一四年度中央政府總預算結議五列以一一四年度第四幕南部縣區編列預算六億五千一百三十一萬三千元凍結一百萬元是中央研究院向立法院教育及文化委員會提出順便報告後使得動之處理一一四年度一中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算公務預算解凍案八案一"},{"start":2133.149,"end":2158.952,"text":"核能安全委員會函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第二款第十二項新增決議二十八游離輻射安全防護預算凍結一百萬元書面報告請查詐案二核能安全委員會函為一一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第二款第十二項新增決議三十三核物料管制業務預算凍結一百萬元書面報告請查詐案"},{"start":2159.893,"end":2179.204,"text":"三 核能安全委員會函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第二款第十二項決議一 預算凍結書面報告請查詐案四 核能安全委員會函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第二款第十二項決議二 預算凍結書面報告請查詐案"},{"start":2183.004,"end":2209.962,"text":"五 核能安全委員會函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第二款第十二項決議三 預算凍結書面報告請查詐案六 核能安全委員會函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第二款第十二項決議四 預算凍結書面報告請查詐案七 核能安全委員會函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第二款第十二項決議五 預算凍結書面報告請查詐案"},{"start":2213.224,"end":2236.942,"text":"八 核能安全委員會函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第二款第二十二項決議六預算凍結書面報告請查詐案處理一一四年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院單位預算解凍案一案核能安全委員會函為行政法人國家原子能科技研究院一一四年度預算決議減送決議一預算凍結書面報告請查詐案 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2246.175,"end":2258.721,"text":"以上書面報告案計14案已宣讀完畢但是我們現在人數不足3人我們等一下再處理那現在請中央研究院廖院長進行報告報告時間6分鐘稍微各位委員今天很高興來大院向各位報告專案及預算解凍報告"},{"start":2274.161,"end":2298.037,"text":"首先本院凍結的數目總計為十一億六千兩百一十萬三千元那分為兩大項在委員會凍結的部分總計一千兩百五十萬元向教育及文化委員會提出說明報告後使得凍資其中包括整體凍結一百萬元一般行政凍結五十萬元一般學術研究及評議凍結一百萬元"},{"start":2299.298,"end":2310.566,"text":"一般學術研究及評議學術研究與人才培育基本行政工作維持維持費凍結900萬元南部院區凍結100萬元院會凍結中央醫院業務費不含約用人員酬金30%計11億4963萬向教育及文化委員會提出預算執行情形專案報告並經同意後使得動之"},{"start":2326.052,"end":2330.892,"text":"那在教育文化委員會動資的部分我們書面報告已函送大院"},{"start":2332.711,"end":2356.096,"text":"在院會凍結的部分計11億4963元那要向教文會委員會提出預算執行情形之後有專案報告並經同意後使得凍值那受影響的業務工作計畫呢包括一般行政有467萬9千元學術研究與人才培育5億5370萬8千元"},{"start":2359.617,"end":2365.88,"text":"數理科學研究方面有1億8171萬元生命科學研究方面有2億5843萬元人文及社會科學研究有9812萬元南部縣區有6547萬"},{"start":2378.917,"end":2394.457,"text":"本院與一般行政機關的業務費性質有很大的差別一般行政機關的業務費主要用途是在行政事務費本院的業務費主要用途是支持研究、國內外交流、實驗儀器運作與人才培育等"},{"start":2396.206,"end":2423.656,"text":"其中包括物品的構置其中包括各項研究中所需要的消耗性及非消耗性物品但實驗工作一旦展開無法中途任意變更或停止對於研究推展進行至關重要一般事務費除了以通商10%之外有盤凍結這部分包括論文發表、出盤印刷品、暑期實習生、天文台運轉費等等是為了要促進"},{"start":2425.217,"end":2448.326,"text":"研究成果的發表與傳播,支撐研究單位日常運作與學術影響力的提升息息相關水電費方面,用於實驗室、實驗、電腦機房、文物館各種專有的實驗室設備需要用,確保實驗和儀器的穩定性與可靠性維持本院各單位研究與行政工作的基本運作"},{"start":2450.151,"end":2462.67,"text":"在設施及機械設備費我們需要維持研究的效率品質安全性與持續性確保研究工作的順利進行那房屋建築養護費除了通商5%之外我們需要"},{"start":2466.295,"end":2479.992,"text":"有維護本院各建築物使用的安全本院遷至南港院區已經70年有些建築已經逐漸老化必須要提前本院形象及最重要的是安全的顧慮"},{"start":2482.094,"end":2504.495,"text":"權利使用費包括使用專利權、智慧財產權、商標權的各種專利而需按期支付的相關權利金費用如訂購電子資料庫、特定軟體有助於了解相關領域最新技術發展和研究趨勢與全國研究人員共享電子資源這方面都是由眾議院出讓跟大家一起共享"},{"start":2506.192,"end":2521.911,"text":"在资讯服务费方面面对日域是越复杂的网络威胁确保各项研究资料和系统的安全这是我们维持国际学术竞争力的重要保障国外旅游方面除了以通案三减百分之十而且不得流用之外"},{"start":2523.332,"end":2542.423,"text":"我們又有這個凍結的部分那這部分是用於研究人員出國參加國際會議學術交流進行國際學術訪問合作及田野調查等以為了掌握最新的研究趨勢和技術促進國際合作交流提升能見度"},{"start":2544.531,"end":2571.705,"text":"其他業務包括穩定的資源進行各種跨國研究資源大型計算維護網路安全等等其中譬如說包括濾金研究船是用於海洋能海洋生態系等研究調查對於我國發展再生能源發電至為重要除此之外岸日計酬案件對於學術交流學術出版等等也非常重要"},{"start":2573.391,"end":2586.738,"text":"通案刪解的部分本院也有很多影響比如研究進度的延宕人才培育受影響貴重儀器設備及維護遭遇困難研究資源受限等等"},{"start":2589.72,"end":2613.249,"text":"本院已经在这个环境之下积极控管协调但是各研究所中心科研需求十分相似得以协调空间是有限以遭通山又遭冻结部分科目不得留用更压缩调节的弹性各项应变措施虽然能够解决短期的问题但是难以支撑长期稳定的发展"},{"start":2616.046,"end":2626.904,"text":"本院将持续推动基础研究与尖砖研究为国家的永续发展贡献情理建请大院同意本院各项预算解冻以增进我们的竞争力"},{"start":2630.865,"end":2656.227,"text":"最後由於本人須出席一項重要的國際會議及本院前副院長之告別式並帶總統頒發保養令以向大院告假並致電召委及在院長萬元獲得諒解但是本人會留到前面兩位委員諮詢完畢之後再行離開接下來答詢將由本院對預算閒熟的周副院長代勞懇請大院支持"},{"start":2659.116,"end":2685.309,"text":"謝謝梁副院長進行報告也感謝你這麼敬業你剛下飛機就趕過來謝謝那現在請回座那在核能安全委員會陳主委進行報告之前因為我們現場委員人數已達一決人數我們先確定一數入請問各位委員上次會議一數入有錯誤或遺漏之處沒有那一數入確定那接下來我們先來確認一下我們剛才宣讀的這個"},{"start":2687.361,"end":2701.7,"text":"十四個解凍素面報告請問大家有沒有意見沒有意見喔那就准予被查提報院會那接下來我們請核能安全委員會陳主任委員進行報告報告時間六分鐘"},{"start":2711.488,"end":2724.556,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生大家好今天請代表核能安全委員會並且同相關主管就一一四年度稅出預算審議決議向大院委員提出報告"},{"start":2726.018,"end":2740.805,"text":"大院审议114年度核安会及所属预算共有9项冻结案总计冻结1亿3441万元令国家原子能科技研究院一项冻结案冻结50万元"},{"start":2742.81,"end":2766.555,"text":"核安会及所属业务系执行核能安全、辐射防护和物料安全管制、紧急应变准备、环境辐射侦测、国际合作交流、科普宣导及科技研发等重要业务之经费来源。以下请就委员关切议题进行说明。"},{"start":2769.366,"end":2795.111,"text":"目前国内核电厂的运转期执照都已经届期依法停止运转进入除疫期间在用过核子燃料移除反应炉及用过燃料池前本会持续管制台电公司比照运转期间的规定执行用过核子燃料安全相关系统设备的维护测试作业"},{"start":2796.348,"end":2821.32,"text":"有关干事主持人议题台电公司已完成合一场室外干处设施热测试作业本会审查后于5月1日核发运转执照台电公司于1月开始新建合一场室外干处设施后本会每月持续派员执行新建品质安全检查"},{"start":2823.459,"end":2848.493,"text":"台电公司为满足核电厨艺需求分别在各电厂增设一座低放主层设施合一厂三号库部分本会于113年7月发给建造执照另外台电公司已于今年5月提出合一厂四号库建造执照申请本会将严密执行审查作业"},{"start":2849.915,"end":2876.963,"text":"在游离辐射安全管制方面规划办理业者辅导检查并持续办理辐射屋居民检检及关怀访视此外推动新一代辐射源管理系统高风险辐射源科技监控与戒指人员自主学习网等并持续进行辐射辐防法修法作业强化安全管制"},{"start":2879.397,"end":2899.631,"text":"因应日本寒川废水长达30年之排放本会与成立跨部会因应平台执行海水渔货物及日本输入食品之辐射监测本会与卫福部也于2013年完成食品生物川检验量能提升至每年2000件以上"},{"start":2900.811,"end":2915.827,"text":"此外本会亦持续海水取样计划涵盖特定海域的多点监测以强化数据比对与长期趋势分析另外亦积极协调日本进行技术交流与海水检测分析"},{"start":2917.421,"end":2932.861,"text":"国园院SMR研发部分1月4年投入经费约2000多万元,针对核电厂被动式安全机制、反应器动态模拟及压水式SMR关键炉心特性的进行评估与分析。"},{"start":2935.131,"end":2954.393,"text":"推动民众参与民众沟通方面,除自办原子能科技科普展外,亦持续推广校园原子能科普教育,并建议全民参与事务咨询会专业意见交流,提升管制政策透明度与社会信任。"},{"start":2955.868,"end":2981.241,"text":"有关核事故民众防护宣传部分本会持续透过宣传影片家庭访问等方式深耕核安防护之能此外考量国内已储备足够量点片对目前暂存于国家点片储存库中已超过保存年限的点片将于6月半里销毁作业"},{"start":2983.646,"end":3011.513,"text":"接下来进行国务院院预算冻结报告部分在专利人才管理方面国务院院预5年未运用专利比例从1亿3年降至17.75%专利维护费则减少至660万元列以拟定1亿3至1亿6发展目标及计划合理控管原额并审慎规划办理人员领选领补作业"},{"start":3012.999,"end":3026.395,"text":"國研院執行小產源低放射性廢棄物接受並進行儲物減容減量及安定化作為另就接收之非固體廢棄物進行儲物以符合法規標準"},{"start":3027.932,"end":3048.304,"text":"有关核融合技术方面第一期计划已完成FIRST装置的细部设计第二期将聚焦于FIRST装置的建造与性能测试一四年将进行装置组件采购与组装一五年完成系统整合一六年进入运转测试以上报告敬请各位"},{"start":3049.184,"end":3066.041,"text":"委員卓珊不盡之處 敬請委員參閱相關書面報告敬請各位委員會議之事 同意各項預算之解凍以利本會各項工作的推動延續 達成工作目標再次感謝委員的支持 謝謝現在進行綜合詢問"},{"start":3075.1,"end":3096.937,"text":"每位出席委員質詢時間8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘方言登記截止時間為上午11時委員如有臨時提案請於上午10時30分前提出並與本會委員吳佩奕委員質詢結束後進行解凍專案報告案及臨時提案處理"},{"start":3098.278,"end":3106.686,"text":"處理提案時,若提案委員及連署委員均不在場,原例不予處理首先請發言登記第一位柯志恩委員質詢謝謝昭倫,我們是不是請廖院長請廖院長"},{"start":3115.933,"end":3137.128,"text":"科委員早院長早我想今天在場不管是河岸會或是中研院大概是我們本院當中學歷應該是最高的所以每個人都是應該用證據來說話我不覺得應該所以說這個解凍案不僅是要來看看各位的報告到底有沒有辦法符合解凍的標準其實也要做一些訊息的一個釐清這點院長應該同意"},{"start":3139.85,"end":3166.05,"text":"好 我们就先来看今年当初我们在做这个预算的时候还没有定论之前就有非常多人来告诉我们很多的业务费会被删减到只剩下一块钱而且中研院也发布了为了全国科学研究跟人才培育来请命有三千位的约聘助理薪资可能会因为遭到删减或冻结将会影响到同仁的生计请问院长这件事情有发生吗"},{"start":3166.75,"end":3186.493,"text":"這是在跟委員溝通之前是沒錯你覺得我們可能以我們跟中研院的默契我們會把你們這樣的經費刪到一塊錢嗎你覺得有可能嗎有需要這份大動作來告訴大家我們可能會影響到中研院每一個人的生計嗎我覺得有必要做這樣一個聲紋嗎一塊錢不是我們講的"},{"start":3187.774,"end":3216.581,"text":"那有必要去做到这样的一个声明你看媒体的报道到这么多或许不是你讲但是有非常多的媒体做这样的一个处理中研院还是做这样的一个声明院长我只能告诉你本委员会对中研院是非常的支持的而且这样的一个讯息以你们的判断在没有得到实际的素质之前没有道理去告诉好像是就一副我们就会把中研院影响到每个造成非常大的一个讯息上的混淆"},{"start":3217.581,"end":3238.875,"text":"這也是本席要強烈提出來抗議的報告委員當初我們是非常感謝教文會的大力協助可是在院會當中提出這個很大的刪減項目我們當初也立即跟三個黨團的負責人召委來協商但是都"},{"start":3239.195,"end":3256.615,"text":"我们就一一来去看我现在先表明这样的一个部分恐怖付不出三千人的这个薪水这不应该是由中研院来而且也不可能会发生事实证明到现在为止也没有发生这是我要一定要提到的接下来我们一一来沟通之后就确实是可以了"},{"start":3257.196,"end":3271.547,"text":"你沒有溝通到最後的協商最後的結果也會是這樣子沒有人會去對中研院的預算你應該從過去長期以來你要對我們有信心這是我要第一個提到的第二個我們先來看到現在我們再來第二個提到所以我對於你們發這樣的一個訊息你是讓我們大家做傻的耶以我們跟你們的默契不應該是有這樣子的一個狀況接下來"},{"start":3281.075,"end":3297.116,"text":"好 那我们就一来看到底影响有多少业务费被冻结了12亿元包括我们就举个例子出差费等等之类的你告诉我们被砍的食物可能会影响到国际社会认为台湾不重视科研那院长我们就一一来去看"},{"start":3297.557,"end":3301.421,"text":"以113年跟114年來說我們就算是山減就是我們統三大概是差距是1.01%但是呢你以國外的差旅費來說我們增幅是13而且你的山減率說實在差10%在我們往下我會讓院長有機會來看一下然後呢我們所凍結的這些部分當中呢當然義務費包山包海"},{"start":3322.179,"end":3336.81,"text":"其中涵盖这个国外的旅费的部分里面呢大陆大概删了30%国外大概删了15%然后你们告诉我院长在这个国外的彩旅费当中你认为是在我们的业务费当中是占多少吗"},{"start":3337.702,"end":3345.751,"text":"因為是主要是不得留用這一項我們再來看我們似乎來找出解方事實上國外的參與費在整體的業務費當中是1.71%然後呢 凍結我幫你算出來金額是3635如果你把統山加上這個預算這個部分你大概是總額是5000多萬元"},{"start":3357.003,"end":3365.569,"text":"但是你知道嗎雖然這個地方不能挪用還有一筆基金不是在我們今天討論範圍就是你114年度的你科研基金編列的差旅費是多少嗎你知道比113年科研基金裡面的差旅費也是你們可以使用的告訴院長增加了7047增幅是51.4%"},{"start":3378.078,"end":3398.729,"text":"所以不管是国外的旅费或是大陆的旅费大幅的增加其中国外的餐饮费正超过六成大陆已经超过五倍这完全超过你这次的公务预算的煽动的这个预算了院长你有没有看到这个这是因为今年起由于这个COVID-19已经全面解除你可以来做这个部分"},{"start":3399.85,"end":3421.058,"text":"這突然間增加很多各所都有需要我只是告訴你院長的解方你不能告訴我你因為沒有這些公務預算大家都好像不認為我們就是學術的這個研究所影響你的科研基金我告訴院長你科研基金通常來說你基金政府機關即便沒有經過三讀你們還是會先用了再說而且都是到年底才敢審完"},{"start":3422.458,"end":3432.148,"text":"所以即使我們有一般公務的一般的刪減你的這個基金你還是可以來做這樣的一個使用你何來告訴我你們中研院沒有錢可以讓這些學術單位出國去旅行呢"},{"start":3433.189,"end":3443.671,"text":"據我了解這分兩個部分因為我們的預算都是分到各計畫各所中心不是統籌在院本部一個大水庫在用我只是告訴你當然但是這個部分裡面你還是可以透過不同的方法而且我還要直指院長你們中原的編法其實有違反的原則你知道嗎"},{"start":3455.214,"end":3461.816,"text":"你如果看到主技術所公布的這樣子一個附屬機關裡面的特別基金是特別是大陸地區或是國外的旅費你不能夠超過前一年的預算數你們中研院這次編的還是有超過我們都可以不用管基本上面你們只要提得出合理的方法有基金的預算我們都完全來同意我只是要告訴你中研院不是沒有錢有不同的方式你可以來讓我們這些科研人員都還是有辦法得到非常好的一個照顧是的"},{"start":3484.844,"end":3497.197,"text":"就是在教文會達到這個目標我們非常感謝但是基金高你科研基金就是比過去多了54%你還是可以來做一個使用不要告訴我中研院沒有錢這是我沒辦法接受的接下來我們再看凍結這個部分有關於這個儀器的層面上裡面來說你"},{"start":3502.342,"end":3519.373,"text":"這是你們在這次的解凍來說但是我還是要請教院長每一次有關貴重儀器特別是超過千萬的貴重儀器常常被審計部跟立法院的預算中心來認為使用不佳你們今天告訴我們的理由是你們的方式是什麼呢發函給全國大專院校請大家踴躍來使用然後說預算會便宜一點"},{"start":3523.436,"end":3542.934,"text":"但是呢各校并没有像中研院一样有这么高强度的研究能量或是需求所以这部分来怎么样的部分呢永远告诉我们这个结果然后呢我们预算中心跟我们大家都还是认为你们在采购这个千万元以上的仪器上面还是有这样的问题需要被来做澄清的院长没有别的方法吗那因为这部分呢"},{"start":3543.314,"end":3560.063,"text":"越高階的儀器當然使用的人越來越少要漸漸普及但是我們不能夠不買這些高階的儀器因為全國全世界只有少數人在用我們為了要跟全世界競爭我們也必須要我完全同意但是院長你要看看你給我們的解凍報告書裡面你們是不是寫的儀器的單價值不該以使用率來呈現我都很仔細看你們寫的報告要用儀器價值反映在期間發表跟論文的引用次數上面這是你們告訴我們的"},{"start":3572.35,"end":3575.372,"text":"你觉得这样子的引用的价值符合院长你的期待吗符合你所说的价值吗我相信我相信"},{"start":3599.551,"end":3614.837,"text":"很多人用這些儀器並沒有完全說把每一台儀器都引用在這個論文就是你們解凍報告說要反映在這個層面上我只是根據你的解凍報告來請教院長因為解凍報告可能寫的不是完全是符合實際的狀況真正大家做研究的時候沒有辦法這個以跟立法院報告的心態來寫論文寫學術論文跟寫立法院報告是兩回事"},{"start":3629.482,"end":3649.851,"text":"這個就是你的解凍報告所呈現給我們我們只是告訴院長這個報告的這個說法其實很難說服我們然後再加上過去的部分裡面很多預算中心認為使用的頻率上面是很希望它能夠用在包口上面讓這個所謂的研究更具有成效就是因為包口所以非常尖只有少數人可以用"},{"start":3650.111,"end":3659.393,"text":"不是一個榔頭不是一個榔頭 大家都可以敲得到好 感謝這個我們一定改進然後呢 特別還有提到就說你中研院裡面還編了8億的預算來擴充固定的資產你讓他們來建構這個實驗跟研究用的儀器但是呢 也還是被點出來了預算持續率偏低以至於你們每年都會來辦理保留"},{"start":3677.256,"end":3696.182,"text":"那如果是有注意提升的水准的话那我们当然都会愿意来支持但是你不合效益之后一立体计算都在做预算保留多年没有动用到这个计划那你这个部分里面要么就缓办否则你就要用在这个部分还是一句话嘛你怎么样来精进嘛这还是呈现出这样的一个数字出来啊"},{"start":3697.043,"end":3713.497,"text":"這部分我們會想辦法改進但是原因是因為很多儀器等到我們變到預算的時候儀器已經又精進了我們就必須要重新再做那這部分你們要怎麼解決因為你永遠會在數字上呈現就會是這個樣子這個是比較麻煩的因為數字永遠跟不上研究的進度全世界的科研"},{"start":3713.837,"end":3728.939,"text":"永遠是領先的我們預算至少一年半因為你們流用的方式你們緩編的方式其實是太多年了所以這又是被提出來我們希望立法院預算中心我們剛才解釋了好幾年我們希望再次能夠溝通希望大家能夠了解"},{"start":3729.38,"end":3729.48,"text":"好 谢谢"},{"start":3759.46,"end":3761.141,"text":"你们找不到你们要的人这也是可能是这样子啊"},{"start":3785.194,"end":3813.379,"text":"对不对这有很多的解释方法当然有一些不是我们要的人但是有很多也确实是不错的所以我们的那个录取的水准确实是有提高我还是觉得院长我们要诚实面对我们台湾的整个研究的team研究的环境事实上很困难即使川普里面川普里面把很多的人才全部已经外放到不同的国家去我们台湾就要利用这一波要能够吸引国际的人才我觉得这还是有非常大的一个努力因为你们"},{"start":3814.039,"end":3814.219,"text":"因為只有兩個禮拜"},{"start":3841.013,"end":3860.499,"text":"因為我們在此只有兩個禮拜而已從我們宣布到截止只有兩個禮拜那你就下次必須要有一個時程不能夠永遠無限制的下去院長我只是提出來人才是我們台灣最大的一個資產我們中研院負起這樣一個角色在所有需要的預算所需要的這個部分當中我覺得這個為我們的全力配合"},{"start":3863.1,"end":3888.067,"text":"还是再一次一如我一刚才站在台上之外中研院虽然附属于总统下面的一个单位但是我觉得发言要本朱你所看到的一个事实不要还没有发生的状况你反而率先来去做这样的一个处理这会就引起人大恐慌这点是本席今天一定要以正视听我们并没有在这个地方影响三千人的这样的生计也没有因为我们任何部分来影响中研院对于人才的培育或是对国外"},{"start":3888.607,"end":3894.275,"text":"所謂這個我們科研人員被台灣看到的這樣的感受這是本席在這個地方要強力強力的聲援"},{"start":3896.41,"end":3918.61,"text":"謝謝我們再次強調我們那個聲明是在這個協商之前確實是有這樣的狀況任何協商那是一個過程結果才是最重要你在協商的過程當中你就用這樣的方式我覺得這個才是一個最大的一個問題你既然沒有做這樣的協商請你做相信我們不會再對中研院這個層面上面會做出這樣的部分非常感謝"},{"start":3922.981,"end":3929.704,"text":"好 謝謝柯之恩委員院長請回我們接下來請耿如君召委好 謝謝召委有請河安會主委好 有請河安會陳主委"},{"start":3954.995,"end":3982.366,"text":"委員好主委好我們負責任的在野黨說到做到您來我的辦公室拜會的時候我們就有提到我們希望理性的看待核能的議題那您也不小心回覆啦說核能議題是政治議題但我想我們今天有機會回歸到理性上個禮拜二5月13號核管法修法三讀通過然而呢今天已經過了幾天了那我們在今天這個5月21號"},{"start":3984.352,"end":4000.574,"text":"其實我們還沒有看到相關的動作5月17號核三廠二號機停機台電到目前為止還沒有提出研議的申請那對這件事情呢經濟部發新聞稿表示他說啊核安會要修完執法才能評估"},{"start":4002.52,"end":4014.719,"text":"那這個馬上呢我們其實修法的內容我想主委應該看過了啦就是如果需要運這個核電的話那就是由台電提出嘛對不對那核安會來進行相關後續嘛"},{"start":4016.604,"end":4044.869,"text":"那這個台電說是何安會你沒修執法啊你沒有修執法馬上一顆皮球就踢過來了那我想何安會這裡也很負責啦我在此肯定你們也發了相關的新聞稿說明啦其實現行的規定呢就可以評估並且決定提出換照申請這顆球你踢給他就是踢得對也踢得好因為確實在法規上面他是要主動提出申請的沒錯要提出換照"},{"start":4045.669,"end":4072.487,"text":"但是依據國安 核安會的說法你說要踢給他 他又踢給你我想確認一下外界的民眾可能會看不懂說政府在互踢皮球雖然我看得懂哪一顆是對的 哪一顆是錯的但我想是不是請主委來評估一下到底核三廠二號機有沒有順利研議是經濟部的責任 台電的責任還是現在像他們講的 求在你們核安會這裡你們都不修執法可不可以請你回答一下"},{"start":4075.572,"end":4089.725,"text":"在收到大院三度通过的修正条文之后,就已经着手研究三观执法的修订"},{"start":4092.031,"end":4118.609,"text":"執法是指的核四反應器設施運轉執照申請審核辦法我們對於這個停機後再啟動會有新的要求這個執法我們已經在研議之中大概很快就會把它提出來公布在網上不好意思 主委你這樣把這顆球踢給我們又踢給全球 全國人民"},{"start":4119.77,"end":4134.619,"text":"你剛剛提到的這個相關的辦法我們都幫你看過了第16條裡面就已經有了還幫你畫紅字啊有換照我們本來就是換發嘛你換發執照的申請檢附報告四個辦法都有啦你到底還要改什麼執法你要改哪裡何店長"},{"start":4140.967,"end":4156.184,"text":"這個停機後再重啟的話核電廠必須恢復到運轉期間的營運狀態包括組織人力訓練程序設備復原等以確認符合繼續安全運轉之要求當然原來的"},{"start":4158.064,"end":4185.184,"text":"范造辦法是不是都已經有了嘛要申請付的東西都有啦還是要繼續要做原來四個要求還要做還再加上這個要恢復到運轉期間的營運狀態好 主委所以你說台電把球踢給你你把球踢給他他再踢給你你踢給我們你踢給全國人民那我想問啦我們現在把球踢給你請問什麼時候會研議完畢我說的研議就是研究嘛OK"},{"start":4185.444,"end":4202.366,"text":"什麼時候修 這執法什麼時候弄完啊你的求婦人一直抱在手上吧我們估計四個月四個月是不是因為其中按照這個行政協議有兩個月是公佈期間在網站上公佈前後作為 前面作為加後面作為四個月應該可以做得出來"},{"start":4203.027,"end":4217.808,"text":"不好意思 主委四個月AI可能都已經不知道進步幾番了我想希望能不能加速但是我們還是以安全為前提我們希望核安會這裡主動積極地來儘速地做執法的修正好不好那我還是要問 再進一步問"},{"start":4218.729,"end":4236.657,"text":"不管是四個月還是有人說一年要做這個研議的其他的事情或者我們院長甚至拉長了說三年半我們先不管是四個月一年還是三年半我想問這一段時間這些核能工程的專業這些本來在維護運轉的這些專業都是我們台灣最寶貴的人才我們不留住他們怎麼辦呢我想問一下那這段時間你四個月他四個月到最後加起來這段時間我們這一批寶貴的"},{"start":4247.481,"end":4264.74,"text":"河安 河工的專業人才要去哪裡啊他們不需要運轉啊那萬一到時候要運轉起來還是需要他們啊萬一他們流掉了他被人家搶走了我們不要 別人要這可不可以快速回應一下還是有工作做 請主持人回答"},{"start":4266.542,"end":4285.199,"text":"事實上在這段期間設備跟管制能力當然持續的一些專業必須要維持住啦因為如果台電公司未來如果提出申請的話還是要相關的技術的能力來審查這一塊所以能力還是必須要維持住好這一點詳情 何安慧待會我現在也請國務院院長謝謝這個"},{"start":4288.052,"end":4313.125,"text":"我想人才非常重要啦我們在這個能源政策不管在轉換還是升級上面尤其賴總統已經講了我們要有新核能所以我想這些核工的人才務必一定要留住好不好所以那我想主委請回這個核安會請回我想我就一起告知各位那另外我想請教一下國務院院長新核能也是需要核工的專業人才"},{"start":4314.025,"end":4329.609,"text":"那我想關於這個SMR呢國園院有計劃要爭取4.8億的計劃經費這部分本席給予肯定跟支持但是我們看了一下國園院過去四年對SMR的計劃110年111年113年都沒有相關的計劃112年編列100萬元新台幣各位沒有看錯100萬新台幣今年"},{"start":4339.987,"end":4353.923,"text":"則是編了1500萬其實我去年上任的時候我就不斷的說SMR很重要我們應該要早一點開始編列當時我們聽到的金額都非常少過了現在2025年了我們已經看到在美國"},{"start":4354.924,"end":4380.68,"text":"微軟、亞馬遜、谷歌、Meta這些大企業都在投入SMR的新核能微軟就獲得美國能源部600億新台幣的補助亞馬遜則是投資超過150億新台幣那我們到今年年底花在SMR的計劃經費1600多萬即便明年起增加一年所有是1.2億雖然我們是支持但是跟國外相比真的落差有點大"},{"start":4381.32,"end":4394.45,"text":"那我想賴總統喊著新核能美國各個國家也都非常關注我們的人員安全我們這個落差很大啊那賴總統昨天又說了要推動20項減碳旗艦計畫預計到2030年要投入1兆元而且這種綠色的投融資還要高達5兆那相比起來我們這樣一年一億是不是不太夠啊可不可以請這個國務院院"},{"start":4410.062,"end":4424.152,"text":"請這個跟行政院爭取看看補助啊不然這樣的經費是不是有點難跟其他國家競爭報告 格昭偉我們的確今年特別事實上明年的預算"},{"start":4426.334,"end":4451.326,"text":"我們租位來的有增加了一千八百萬所以明年原子能方面的跟國科會爭取有到三千六百萬那另外在上個月有到國科會跟國科會報告也爭取了第一年一億那總共是四點八億四年的預算現在這個整個公文也在行政院在審查之當中我剛剛都講了啦院長我跟你是站在一起的"},{"start":4452.266,"end":4475.192,"text":"我是說你這個單位是客位數啊人家是一百五十億六百一直在起跳的是不是主委我們一起跟行政院多爭取一點啦好歹要加個零吧好歹要從單位數的億要變成這個兩位數的億吧有沒有機會啊我們一起來為我們台灣的合共新和能啊總統都講啦你們是不是這個想要讓總統難看不會吧"},{"start":4477.409,"end":4504.457,"text":"是 稍微 我們是還是會積極前四年先把它這個因為現在新的能源包括SMR真正商業化要到2030年所以我們利用這四年先做一些研究那研究包括三種不同的反應器包括熔岩式 包括這個鈉冷式還有包括傳統的這個壓水式所以我們先把這個做一個有系統的整合然後再做一個建立"},{"start":4506.037,"end":4528.285,"text":"現在我們台灣的AI的發展就是有點落後就是因為我們看人家成功了我們才走啦現在我們要找一點投入接下來是能源大戰我們合工的人才合工相關的預算一定要足夠新型態的核能現在總統已經開口了我們大家要跟上好不好OK好那我們接下來謝謝請回座我們有請中研院院長"},{"start":4531.878,"end":4549.602,"text":"有請院長院長好還是很謝謝您今天百忙中抽空過來那我想我還是要echo一下剛剛柯志恩委員所提的我想未來我們在溝通的過程裡面希望可以信任我們委員會對中研院的支持我們對委員會非常信任不好意思您讓我講完就是說"},{"start":4552.023,"end":4567.4,"text":"我想在溝通的上面您大可以說三千位研究人員的人才我們一定保住我們一定幫助你保護你們的捍衛你們的預算好不好不要說是用這種負面的訴求嘛說你們可能會沒有工作好不好我們沒有這樣說啊"},{"start":4568.541,"end":4573.283,"text":"剛剛那個新聞稿 上面是說中演員冒號那是媒體講的 我們講的是假如照這個的話我們會產生什麼結果因為那個時候是黨團 各黨團然後我們就不得其門而入沒有辦法跟黨團溝通所以我們只好大聲疾呼這樣子的話 假如說沒有溝通下去會很麻煩事後確實是各黨團是有接見我們那我們有去溝通"},{"start":4596.67,"end":4611.855,"text":"他這個問題就迎刃而解了是是這樣子的狀況所以我想溝通過程上面的溝通正向上面的訊息如果有錯誤要澄清第二如果有好的結果是不是也應該要多發布一些相關的聲明好不好我想我們予以期待好 謝謝"},{"start":4612.915,"end":4629.815,"text":"再來爭取一點時間我請教一下中研院過去我跟您請教過 淨零五支建沒有包含核能一事那是因為核能我們認為說不是中研院的專長我們淨零五支建裡面是中研院可以馬上貢獻的部分核能中研院沒有辦法貢獻"},{"start":4631.036,"end":4648.089,"text":"那陳主委也在底下啦其實我之前4月24號跟主委在互動的時候主委有說啦說目前跟中研院已經有建立合作機制未來也將積極推動跨部會科研的合作那我也在這裡跟院長同步一下"},{"start":4648.809,"end":4670.674,"text":"5月19號世界要改變了德國放棄反對核能立場而且請注意一下我們幫您畫紅線法國爭取在歐盟立法當中將核能視同再生能源也就是核能的低碳的特性其實是逐漸在AI的世代是被重視的所以我們同意所以我想既然我們同意的話我想請教一下院長"},{"start":4671.534,"end":4696.226,"text":"那我們接下來有沒有跟核安會這裡在核能方面我再重申一次我們不管大家的政治立場我相信研究是中立的科學是中立的核安的核工的核能的人才拜託一定要留住所以我們有沒有更多的研究和合作可以期待我目前沒有核能核安方面的人才但是核能部分假如牽涉很多基礎性的研究我們願意投入"},{"start":4697.286,"end":4721.554,"text":"而不是直接用在核能的設計 核能的安全 核能的運轉這方面有其他單位比我們更專長 更有專長的所以我們是從基礎研究的角度來切入那這方面實際運作的是要看其他單位來一起配合好 院長還是請您回去研議啦您這樣給我聽起來還是會覺得說中央醫院未來的研究可能還是不太會有核能為主題的"},{"start":4722.734,"end":4749.212,"text":"但我覺得不管是中研院還是其他單位希望可以我們大家一起努力來滿足我們賴清德總統提出的新核能的可能性他說還沒準備好我們要幫他準備好好不好因為新的核能可能需要新的材料那新的材料這部分就牽涉到很多基礎研究這方面是中研院可以研究的但是這些基礎材料也不見得專門是為核能而做所以很多是會有這種情形所以我們大概不會有專門去拼"},{"start":4753.134,"end":4763.986,"text":"合工的人才那可能在其他單位更適合否則在綜藝會變得無用武之地所以綜藝院目前是沒有聘合工專業人才沒有我們沒有任何人做這方面的"},{"start":4765.124,"end":4790.517,"text":"現在不會再重新考慮我們現在非常需要賴總統宣誓他要投入一兆做中研院的主要的mission是做基礎研究所以核能是應用研究現在核能比較是應用型的研究基礎都已經解決了所以這個為什麼我們可以大概2030年左右我們就可以構置新的核能是用構置的而不是我們自己研發出來的"},{"start":4792.378,"end":4809.888,"text":"自己研發出來可能要到哪一年所以院長您現在已經確定了就是我們的中研院的主旨我們放棄何能因為你剛剛已經說要控制不能講說放棄就是說有相關需求我們能夠幫忙我們一定幫忙那假如沒有這個需求的話"},{"start":4811.709,"end":4828.452,"text":"我們提供基礎研究方面 中研一向是提供基礎研究方面我只是提醒各位 我們良好 良善互動賴清德總統有宣示了 新核能可以考慮我想他說新核能沒有準備好我真的是鼓勵大家 我們一起幫他準備好"},{"start":4828.812,"end":4845.058,"text":"那所以我最後希望可以院長可不可以承諾啦過去我們可能沒有把核能放進來我們有沒有機會考慮把這個禁零五支箭各國都已經轉換立場了禁零五支箭變禁零五加一好不好禁零五加一"},{"start":4846.079,"end":4854.285,"text":"這個可以是新核能機靈組織建的最主要的用意是中研院能夠主導核能是中研院不能主導的否則核安會怎麼做什麼否則國研院做什麼否則其他單位做什麼那國研院遠比我們在這方面實力強太多了我想這是一個合作啦合作當然很願意所以合作我們絕對展開雙倍我跟院長表達如果中研院的"},{"start":4873.64,"end":4894.163,"text":"學術立場科研的立場沒有理性的去把這個所謂的核能各國都在重視的東西放進來我想全台灣的研究員研究單位會覺得核能相關的研究是沒有出入的我覺得這不是一個好的訊息啦我們是有放進來但是不是由中文院主導"},{"start":4894.904,"end":4918.721,"text":"中央院不能做全國所有的事情啊中央院有中央院自己的定位有中央院自己的強項我們根據我們能夠貢獻的部分來貢獻其他還有很多單位包括大學 包括很多法人都比我們更適合那我們大家分工合作院長 您是台灣在科研方面的最高機關這一點同意吧所以您的高度"},{"start":4919.401,"end":4947.609,"text":"有非常重大的影響力所以您沒有辦法承諾把禁令五之間變五加一沒辦法因為這禁令五之間再講一次是中研院自己能夠做的其他我們可以大力鼓吹我們可以coordinate我們可以跟其他單位一起來研議看假如台灣要發展核能還缺什麼東西這個我們可以做但是由我們來自己說這是我們自己要主導這個我覺得我們沒有辦法承諾"},{"start":4948.069,"end":4977.218,"text":"我還是希望院長重新考慮我覺得剛剛您在答覆上面你反而弱化了矮化了中研院在話語權上在科學上的領導的這個地位我本席感到希望給您再多一點時間但我想張偉金站起來了希望給院長多一點時間內部研議一下好不好就是假如說核能裡面有真正的這個基礎研究部分我們非常樂意投入但假如只是後端的怎麼樣"},{"start":4979.339,"end":4988.685,"text":"來deploy這部分的話那有更多更好的更適合單位來做這件事情我是要強調這一點好謝謝院長謝謝昭偉好謝謝謝謝葛君昭偉院長請回好我們接下來請陳秀寶委員"},{"start":5004.492,"end":5020.24,"text":"謝謝主席請周副院長因為我知道廖院長好像已經先離開了好 我們請中研院周副院長好 委員好好 早安副院長 輝達在今日有宣布海外的總部將落腳在北市"},{"start":5021.42,"end":5035.948,"text":"這個對台灣的AI產業及半導體業都是讓人感到很振奮的好消息那民眾也相當的期待輝達與台灣的產學界能夠跨界合作那輝達呢在去年將AI超級電腦的25%的算力分享給國內的AI來研發那其中呢國科會的TED計畫跟中研院都有聯合申請那這邊請教副院長中研院接下來有沒有"},{"start":5046.753,"end":5051.015,"text":"已經開始規劃有進一步跟輝達合作的相關的這些計畫非常謝謝委員的關心因為就是前兩天黃仁勳先生的演講中"},{"start":5060.758,"end":5076.867,"text":"把台灣那個地圖畫出來還有很多很多的單位中研院的確也就在那張的他的那個投影片上面那昨天其實有揮打美國來的人員跟揮打新加坡公司"},{"start":5077.747,"end":5092.358,"text":"在台灣分公司的一些人員到中研院來訪問所以我們已經在洽談一些可能的合作的情形所以在各方面但是內容我這邊不方便透露了但是已經開始"},{"start":5093.683,"end":5121.871,"text":"有在讨论我们有一些哪一方面可以所以中研院这边就是对进一步的相关的合作已经有开始在规划只是这个内容现在还不宜曝光那你们在节动报告上面也说有成立生成式AI风险研究小组会来协助制定合宜的伦理准则以及应用规范那我想请教目前我们已经开始针对不同领域来制定准则了吗"},{"start":5123.272,"end":5132.067,"text":"這個我想請我們比較熟悉這方面有參與這方面工作的邱研究員幫我們回答 謝謝"},{"start":5134.169,"end":5157.507,"text":"委員好 我是法律所邱文聰那這個小組其實有針對有關著作權的部分那還有說在這個相關的學術使用上面確實有提出我們的委員會的一些想法那但是因為基本上它算是學術界自己的一個自律的一個想法所以比較沒有變成是法規上面的一個建議不過如果委員需要的話 當然"},{"start":5158.388,"end":5175.301,"text":"我們可以讓這個小組的一些建議可以提供給委員會雖然說剛才您回答說這個是在學術界一個比較自律的一個自我的規範但是其實相關的準則我覺得是一個非常重要的一個依據那我也希望說你們最你們有預計最快什麼時候可以完成嗎"},{"start":5176.727,"end":5201.916,"text":"這是一個Ongoing的委員會,意思就是說它會隨著AI的這個發展的進程會有不同的議題進來那這邊可不可以請您把一些你們制定的相關的一些資料可以提供的部分給我辦公室第一版的這個報告已經出來了那應該我的印象如果沒有錯應該已經有提供給大院那後續如果還有新的報告出來的話那我們也會再適時的再提供給委員會"},{"start":5202.076,"end":5217.341,"text":"好 謝謝您在AI的這個科技浪潮下其實台灣我們雖然未有半導體的產業優勢但是在AI翻廠上還是需要說中研院跟國科會這邊緊密合作我也希望說我們一直在AI的賽道上我們台灣是佔有一席之地的"},{"start":5218.041,"end":5240.496,"text":"那剛剛有提到說中研院有參與TIDE的這個計畫在發展語言模型的時候語料庫的建設是非常的重要那TIDE的模型背後已經有繁體中文的這個語言資料庫那述發部這邊也發布說他們將要建設新的繁中語料庫那包含說政府部門以及私人企業的資料都會涵蓋中研院這邊針對述發部的這個語言資料庫會不會提供什麼協助或者說也會參與他們相關這個建設計畫"},{"start":5250.223,"end":5271.08,"text":"委員好 我是中研院資訊服務處陳林植處長那對於速發部所提出的這個語言資料庫我們會是全力配合那中研院因為台德的主要的研究模型組也是在中研院所以其實我們也非常需要也非常希望這個中文語料庫可以趕快收集更多的資料來輔助這個模型的發展"},{"start":5271.46,"end":5284.355,"text":"那我們中研院的這個他的這個計畫的這個語料庫跟速發部的這個語料庫我們會不會整合未來就能夠把相關的資源整合進來我們更全面的來發展繁中的語言模型呢"},{"start":5285.356,"end":5313.915,"text":"那個委員好我是那個中央資訊所所長那也是現在國家精創計畫的副執行長所以關於半導體跟AI的相關的部分我有部分參與那速發部現在因為也在提很多那個計畫有相關在精創計畫裡面那剛剛講的那個語料庫的部分因為這個是所有的問題都是因為Deep Seek出來以後引起的因為他是從那個"},{"start":5314.455,"end":5336.741,"text":"DeepSeq它是從那個簽問就是中國的阿里巴巴這個公司一個大型元模型所蒸餾出來的然後再加上一些自有的技術那所以這樣引起全世界的一個關注因為大型元模型本來需要很多的建制經費但是因為它用這樣的一個方式讓一個小型模型比較小型的模型可以運作"},{"start":5337.321,"end":5360.715,"text":"而且可以用在百工百業那目前整個國科會也有一個百工百業的一個計畫大南方計畫那這個部分就是希望AI能夠應用在各行各業因為我們台灣是從中小企業起家所以在這樣的狀況之下大部分的中小企業他沒有辦法沒有那個能力財力去做一個大型圓模型"},{"start":5361.095,"end":5382.426,"text":"那政府本來就有這個義務要來做這件事情但是在蒸餾的過程中我們必須要考量到大型魚眼模型在蒸餾的過程中它其實會蘊含一些價值觀的問題如果是用鉛問的話它是從中國的阿里巴巴弄出來的所以在這個狀況之下一些價值觀當它蒸餾的時候那些價值觀是沒有辦法抹滅的"},{"start":5383.146,"end":5403.015,"text":"所以我們必須要為什麼需要做一個繁體的中文的一個環境的原因就在這裡但是這樣的狀況之下我們台灣目前為止整個算力的部分其實這是大型遠模型訓練最需要的部分但是台灣跟整個大型那處長您的意思現在就是說中研院的這個態度計畫跟塑化部將來要做這個語料庫的建制你們是會一起發展的嗎"},{"start":5411.275,"end":5434.933,"text":"這個部分還沒有談這個事情因為台德計畫它是國科會在用金創計畫向下今年編列了1.4億的預算要做這個台德的部分那台德的部分它最主要就是說適合台灣一個環境的一個大型元就是繁體制的一個環境目的是為了未來要支援各種"},{"start":5435.834,"end":5463.368,"text":"各種的不同的應用那當然是應用一些蒸餾的技術但是台灣基本上有一個最大的問題就是說因為現在大型原模型像Gemini什麼這些大型公司的那個大型原模型一直出來那台德的計畫其實有需要仰賴一些那些技術他一旦翻新的時候台德計畫就要因應所以在這個狀況之下因為最近因為大型原模型實在是太快了"},{"start":5464.148,"end":5493.568,"text":"幾乎每個禮拜都有一個新的模型出來所以我們也在在這個部分我們需要一點時間去琢磨那那個團隊的部分的人才也需要再擴編所以我們有很多事情還是沒有辦法一下子就做出來好 謝謝處長您回答其實台灣發展這個自由語言自由的這個語言模型以及建制語料庫都是因應現在AI相關的發展那我會希望說為什麼這樣子提是希望說我們把相關的資源來整合我相信一加一絕對大於二"},{"start":5494.168,"end":5522.247,"text":"我們把相關的這些我們不管是在技術面或者是在其他的執行面都可以不要各自各做各的有時候這個資源結合進來我想對你們行政部門也會相對的就會覺得說是互相支援那也相信說以中研院這個課你們的實力那我們再有相關的學者專家進來可以提供更多的助力那這個部分會後我這邊再跟你們索資料因為我這邊時間有限謝謝"},{"start":5524.329,"end":5529.366,"text":"那接下来我还要请何安卫主委一起我这个问题要一起问一下"},{"start":5532.935,"end":5557.904,"text":"在5月17號核三廠二號機正式除役那目前核安會的網站上看來台灣所有的核電廠機組都已經正式除役台灣正式的核電歸零那首先這邊先請教中研院那過去中研院一直對提到淨零五支鍵包含去碳燃氣 高效太陽能 光電 海洋能 地熱能以及生殖碳會"},{"start":5559.344,"end":5564.994,"text":"中研院認為說我們金鈴湖世界有哪一個部分可以最快的提供能源的行列跟委員報告 這個我要請環面中心陳玉高主任來回答"},{"start":5574.52,"end":5587.999,"text":"委員好 剛才五支建裡面前四支都是跟能源有關係的我們走在最前面的是去碳燃氣現在已經進展得蠻迅速的大概兩年內就可以完成示範機組的借接"},{"start":5590.582,"end":5606.176,"text":"接下來就是太陽能光電的高效這部分現在也有很多的進展在媒體上我們也已經公佈它已經可以達到31.5的轉換效率另外兩項可能要到明年才會有比較好的成績先跟委員報告到這邊"},{"start":5606.476,"end":5619.203,"text":"所以現在比較快能夠加入這些提供能源行列的就是有去氮燃清的技術以及高效太陽光電的這個部分那海洋能跟低的能要到明年可能才會有相關的成績發表這樣齁好那接下來我想請教賀安慰主委喔"},{"start":5624.286,"end":5636.561,"text":"在核三廠二號機除役之後,核安會繼續接下來的工作作業是什麼?除了視察除役的這個工作計畫之外,目前看起來最重要的部分有哪些?核官房"},{"start":5641.136,"end":5645.96,"text":"除了執法修好之後我現在要請教說你們要去視察他廚藝的工作這些相關的計畫內容大概是什麼"},{"start":5667.174,"end":5691.528,"text":"跟委員說明,目前核三廠二號機已經停機了那核三廠一、二號機的用過燃料池裡面有燃料所以燃料的安全這部分還是要維持住也是核安衛的視察重點那除了一些準備作業包括乾燥設施啊然後還有一些長期的調查部分都是核安衛目前會督促台電公司繼續去辦理的一些事項"},{"start":5692.606,"end":5708.583,"text":"因為雖然說我們核三廠現在已經除役但是核廢料的處置我相信民眾是非常的關心那接下來關於這些核廢料處置的部分呢核安會你們如何把關該進行的程序有哪些"},{"start":5710.345,"end":5728.185,"text":"科安會每年都對台電公司最終處置計畫執行進行專案檢查那另外經濟部為了解決這事情也成立了專案辦公室要來做高放懸殖條例的立法以及高低放處置場的懸殖工作以上"},{"start":5730.801,"end":5755.129,"text":"昨天是我們賴清德總統就職一周年這個就職演說中有非常清楚的表達說核電廠要研議有兩個必須三個原則其中最重要就是核安無虞 核廢有解以及社會共識所以這邊我要請教核安會在所謂的安全審查的程序中有沒有包含基礎老化以及斷層的問題"},{"start":5756.389,"end":5781.965,"text":"這些是不是會影響核安的最重要的因素在你們的專業裡面跟委員說明當然除了電廠的設備老化的評估之外那長者一些地質調查跟耐震的強化都會納入核安位審查的一個重點之一為什麼這樣問呢因為我們的核廢料在我們核三廠這些相關的燃料棒還沒有處理完全之前它還是存在這個斷層之上"},{"start":5783.706,"end":5787.148,"text":"那在這個過程裡面雖然我們的機組是停機的但是我們相關的這些燃料棒這些核廢料還在這個斷層上面的時候我們該如何來避免相關或者說如何預防這個部分你們有怎樣的建議來提供給我們就是在做安全防護的部分"},{"start":5805.323,"end":5832.388,"text":"跟委員說明,當然恆春斷層這一部分離河山長址區大概有1.1公里在輔導之後,河岸位要求台電公司依照美國的Shake的程序來進行評估都有進入斷層的一些事項、斷層的危害都納入評估目前台電公司有針對安全停機的相關的廠房設備補強強化"},{"start":5834.688,"end":5851.085,"text":"當然如果後續台電公司提出研議申請的話就是換照申請的話這部分一定會納入重要的審查項目之一那也會要求台電公司持續的去滾動檢討相關的施政跟如果有國際的新的做法都會納進來以上說明"},{"start":5852.646,"end":5856.487,"text":"其實台灣地處在地震帶地震這個斷層的影響是我們完全無法避免及預期的因為它什麼時候會有一個變動什麼時候會有一個這樣斷層的這個運動其實我們沒有辦法去預測到那一旦發生就是會是很危急的這個狀態那日本呢其實也有案例就是因為斷層在反應爐的下面而否決了這個核電廠研議的這樣子的例子"},{"start":5877.153,"end":5881.415,"text":"所以我希望說在野黨不要假裝不知道說這個斷層的這個疑慮這個斷層的危害在那邊然後針對其實我們賴總統就職一周年演說中提到的這個核電廠研議要有兩個必須三個原則這個部分我相信也是民眾他們所擔憂的我們要有核安意識我們要有核能安全我們也要有社會共識而且核廢的處理是最重要的一端如果沒有"},{"start":5905.266,"end":5914.032,"text":"這些相關的處置能夠做得很完善的話我相信民眾也會認同我們是沒有發展核電的本錢以上 謝謝好 謝謝陳秀寶委員 主委請回接下來我們請郭育晴委員"},{"start":5930.404,"end":5934.845,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請何安慧主委好 有請陳主委早安委員好好 這個昨天其實我們在這個大院民眾黨綁了一個非常荒謬的一個重啟核三的一個公投我想公投是民意 但是核能安全是專業"},{"start":5958.209,"end":5975.874,"text":"那5月17號我們的核三二號機也正式的除役了那邁向了我們的能源的一個新的不同的一個進度了那我想要請教一下主委你怎麼看我們昨天在大院的那個很荒謬的公投這個核電要"},{"start":5982.149,"end":6000.142,"text":"啟用要有三大原則核安、核廢料可以得到處理還有公眾的支持這三大條件是缺一不可的第一個條件應該就是核能安全核能安全是最重要的沒有核安就不可能有核電"},{"start":6001.483,"end":6022.617,"text":"那我想呢這個剛除役的這個核三二號機他已經工作了40年了我們也非常感謝他但是現在工程深退之後剛剛其實主委也提到了除了核能安全以外我們另外還有一個問題就是核廢料的一個處理我想請教一下目前這個高放長紙的設置條例有沒有進展那另外呢低放儲置跟這個選紙的問題目前有最新的進度嗎那接下來我們要怎麼做"},{"start":6031.577,"end":6032.019,"text":"請主持人回答"},{"start":6033.479,"end":6061.496,"text":"包委員那個高放選址條例的部分經濟部今年已經成立專辦公室那他們預定今年會預定的期程是今年會提出來這個相關法案那在低放的部分在非核家園小組其實有給台電公司一個明確指示要台電公司來推動中期暫時儲存設施也要來進行社會溝通那"},{"start":6062.116,"end":6082.441,"text":"台電秉持這個行政院的指示他已經從108年到113年去年完成了兩期的社會溝通計畫那目前正在進行第三期的社會溝通以上有沒有大概確定的位置呢就第一方處置廠來講在"},{"start":6084.822,"end":6109.399,"text":"之前經濟部領選小組已經選出台東的達人跟金門的烏丘這兩個建議候選場址有跟當地的居民有溝通過了嗎台電公司在兩個地方其實都有溝通小組專職在做相關的溝通工作但是因為地方政府我想為什麼我要特別問這個問題因為我覺得核廢料的一個處置的場址"},{"start":6113.542,"end":6141.871,"text":"一直以來都是問題我想地方政府還有地方的這個居民其實他們對於所謂的核廢料放在他們家附近其實是會有很大的一個爭議喔所以怎麼樣落實這個部分那目前為止其實我們的高方長職跟地方的這個處置的一個選址的位置的問題都還依舊存在這個時候如果談所謂的這個荒謬的重啟的核三的一個公投其實這真的是本末倒置喔"},{"start":6142.911,"end":6146.335,"text":"好,那剛剛其實這個也有委員一直在專注所謂的這個SMR但是其實別忘了我們核能的新的技術還有核融合的部分其實這個國外也不斷的一直在成為這個他們現在能源轉型當中一直在研究的一個對象"},{"start":6161.653,"end":6176.082,"text":"那我想這個國際的趨勢全球都在點火了我們台灣到底準備好了沒因為我們都知道這個全球都在快速的佈局這個核融合的一個技術那麼同步的我們也要推動這個法規的修訂還有人才的培育跟產業的一個國際的合作那我想台灣應該是不能缺席的那這應該也是目前我們的這個核安會也應該要往這個方面繼續的前進"},{"start":6188.666,"end":6202.816,"text":"好 那我就想要點出幾個就是比較關鍵性的一個問題那以目前來講其實我們的研究計畫的規模算是比較小那合融合的這個技術目前台灣仍屬於初步的這個進階的階段"},{"start":6204.497,"end":6211.823,"text":"那我想這個實驗型的一個計畫的規模也是非常的有限那另外呢就是我們有專利但是還沒有成事那另外還有這個人才的培育也是明顯的落後那我想就這個人才跟技術上的一個佈局想請教一下下我們的這個主委就是"},{"start":6224.694,"end":6249.842,"text":"我們怎麼樣能夠做跨部會的一個整合跟國際合作還有我們的人才的攬才那目前為止國運會國運院以及我們的和安會還有我們的教育部是不是也正在推動跟相關的一些大學比方說像清大或者是成大的這個技術的核心的大學當中有做合融合的一個工程的相關的一個合作的一個計畫有嗎"},{"start":6252.243,"end":6279.181,"text":"這部分我請國安委員回答這問題好報告委員我們現在有一個就是你這簡報所講的FIRST手作小型福爾摩沙的球型托克馬克裝置這裡面這個計畫第一期是7000萬已經結束第二期從今年3月開始到兩年以後總共1.3億在這個過程我們結合了這兩期計畫同時結合了成大、千大還有福昂中心"},{"start":6280.001,"end":6298.574,"text":"還有本院的同仁我們就在這裡面要培育最少是10位到20位甚至到100位以內的尤其物理方面的人才這裡比較偏向於普通核能跟物理方面的人才我們都有在做規劃同時我們在今年7月的時候會到美國去參訪"},{"start":6300.115,"end":6310.887,"text":"剛剛你前面簡報所講的合龍河的裝置在麻省、麻州還有MIT跟麻州今年嗎?是在今年嗎?今年區的時候我個人會帶隊去參訪到MIT麻省是參訪這兩個單位我們會再把這一方面的技術引進"},{"start":6319.035,"end":6347.371,"text":"就是做交流啦因為這個事實上合龍河可能要蠻久的時間二三十年後才可能商品化但是我們要持續維持這個人才其他人才方面我們會持續在規劃從學校再來培養這相關的人才除了這個前面所述的幾個單位是好那另外我們有聽到就是目前已經有跟這個國際的一些交流的一個計畫呈現了那最近期的是什麼時候"},{"start":6349.873,"end":6363.64,"text":"這幾期國際交流的計畫就是我這一次事實上我們去年8月的時候去年10月有去訪問東北大學日本東北大學去參觀他們合龍河的設施也有做一些交流"},{"start":6365.641,"end":6391.819,"text":"在這個今年我們要打算在美國方面國科會我想國科會副主委也會帶一隊參觀西岸的很多核龍核設施這是國內應該國科會還有我們院裡核安會都會展開更具體更深化好如果有更具體的一些計畫或者是進程再麻煩提供給我們好的好謝謝那接下來我想請這個中研院不好意思因為時間的關係本來還有一些題目好"},{"start":6394.813,"end":6422.53,"text":"委員好你好我想這幾年這個中研院我們在這個驅炭燃氫的一個技術上的進展其實是值得被肯定的那我們跟這個台電合作也進行了這個10%的混氫發電的一個初步的測試可見我們在這個部分的一個研發其實已經動起來了目前我想問的就是有沒有一個初步的規劃有哪一些產業的區塊是可以作為小規模的一個示範的場域"},{"start":6423.695,"end":6428.657,"text":"好非常謝謝委員的提問這個我想請我們環面中心陳玉高主任來好"},{"start":6431.35,"end":6453.425,"text":"有關小型的部分應該它就是不進到現在發電廠的大型的機組那麼它可以接的就是燃料電池現在我們的技術也已經發展到燃料電池可以接起來的大小所以跟一些業界正在洽談下一步是不是可以合作來開發"},{"start":6454.386,"end":6473.619,"text":"好那如果有更近期比較具體的一些計畫或者是成果再麻煩提供給我們那另外我想請教的就是這個高效太陽能技術的競爭力我們怎麼樣把這個部分來加速它這個商品化的部分我中研院跟這個國內的一些頂尖的團隊其實已經成功的研發出這個光電轉換率超過31%的太陽能的一個電池那我想這個是非常讓人期待的也非常我相信這個市場其實是"},{"start":6483.966,"end":6501.679,"text":"極具有潛力的部分但目前為止它仍是屬於這個小面積的一個實驗的原件還沒有跨入所謂的量產的一個階段其實包含它的穩定性就是製程的一個穩定性另外還有這個擴大面積還有電池的一個壽命其實都是我們要克服的一些重點我們怎麼樣來加速這個部分的成熟或者是說我們這個目前已經有跟產業界來做合作進行的一個實驗的場域的佈局"},{"start":6513.328,"end":6516.197,"text":"有沒有一個比較實際的一個進程可以請說明一下"},{"start":6517.1,"end":6544.757,"text":"委員好 我是關鍵議題研究中心主任李超黃太陽光電的技術目前在我們中心全力的在推動跟委員報告已經有國內的一線大廠跟我們在簽訂合作的契約文字的部分還在稍微修改但是他們也願意派他們的團隊來跟我們進行合作今年主要的目標就是要把壽命也就是電池的穩定性的數據一定要"},{"start":6546.798,"end":6570.753,"text":"做到可以被認證而且可以被業界所接受那接下來就可以估計這樣子的材料它所發電的鍍電成本鍍電成本的估計出來以後我們就可以真正來探討說在什麼樣的場域做大規模的試驗所以現在只是小規模的一些場域那還沒有一個特定的園區還是計劃有哪一個特定的一個園區是可以來做這樣子的一個"},{"start":6571.113,"end":6592.349,"text":"目前還沒有計劃到大規模的園區但是我們一定會趕快把這個穩定度的這個部分要趕快做出來就是包含他的耐後性以及他對這個實施的效能嘛這是所有業界都非常關心的一個項目所以我們今年的主要的研發就是朝著這個方向加油加油謝謝那也謝謝 謝謝莊議員好 謝謝主席好 謝謝委員好 謝謝郭育晴委員官員請回那我們接下來請謝龍介委員"},{"start":6618.138,"end":6624.2,"text":"主席 我請福林安全委員會主委我請陳主委陳主委 你好我講 何樂威 你有問題嗎跳舞啦 跳舞啦喔 你講好講好我是客人 跳舞沒問題啦沒問題沒問題啦好我請教你喔"},{"start":6647.346,"end":6649.047,"text":"在這個國際研究啊,我們現在一直在講這個SMR,這個小模型的負荷基礎啊,比較像小的國家,有擔保像個有貴的國家,你有沒有了解?有"},{"start":6667.402,"end":6677.905,"text":"大概有在爭奪的,差不多...請國務院院長來回答報告委員,我國際上有在爭奪的主要是共產國家,大陸跟蘇聯最爭奪的沒有在爭奪的,歐洲、日本、美國、國家,同時是2029年才開始,他2030年才開始"},{"start":6697.418,"end":6708.842,"text":"加拿大也有,英國,法國但是,大陸已經有在上傳了,俄羅斯,就剛才你說的這是我們沒辦法跟他們合作啦,我們是要民主的共贏人他們這算紅色的共贏人,所以我們要立場清澈這樣就很可惜了,因為另外"},{"start":6726.704,"end":6741.769,"text":"要AI 剛才鄧元宜說 要超級的勝率要AI 沒電 電沒電國家不需要在這裡投資 不需要放大幣的資源只要想更高級 實際 才可以蓋在這個應該蓋的地方大家都了解 尤其是在座很多做研究的科學家"},{"start":6756.089,"end":6768.794,"text":"都知道現在AI的時代是一律前例今天沒做 明天就不會有了可惜我們的政府還是西安的水培 金門培富齡發展你從特赤時代到現在"},{"start":6779.653,"end":6791.5,"text":"今天我們吃米糕白吃了,當時是福利福森在研究的時候,第一次的談判那麼,如果不經過米糕的專家跟你認定,不經過台灣的專家認定,怎麼可能會開發呢?後來,現在全世界,注意,這個福利電廠,全世界的台幣都是在40年的使用年限"},{"start":6807.315,"end":6815.238,"text":"已經有處理煙壓 繼續最賺的大概有幾座 你知道嗎?"},{"start":6815.238,"end":6831.786,"text":"兩幾個啊?這個有... 總共有四百多座核電廠取得研議的研議的有一百九十多座一百九十幾座 咱台灣一座就沒辦法放他上一隻就沒辦法放他過去各位鄉親 你想想看"},{"start":6838.626,"end":6841.808,"text":"很可憐喔台灣有這麼好的科學家這麼安全的檢測專家台電在火火煮煮三小時在全世界火營運轉屏蔽兩年來都是五名來因為我們不敢把這個火營電廠給營業這是很可惜的很可惜的我不知道你們對這個"},{"start":6868.015,"end":6875.944,"text":"核安會你有領略讓我們的婦人登場,如果要演繹,才安全檢測你們做得到嗎?核安會的職責就是核安,沒有核安就不會有核電,如果核安會"},{"start":6889.359,"end":6901.707,"text":"認為宇宙電廠有安全疑慮的話 我們會要停止檢查這我們沒有很模糊的疑慮現在我們的副官法已經通過 恰恕今天在台電當然民進黨執政的情形它是一定不會啟動的 因為新珠白的恢復人的家鄉所以我一直在稱讚他 說你已經達到目標 你已經對民進黨的駒馬的高台階級了恢復人的家鄉5月17日已經達成了"},{"start":6919.5,"end":6929.746,"text":"有狗啊 越早啟動 台灣人民越早遞到幸福我們現在來說 他已經在頂檔了 我有說過李鴻二千年十月以前 他如果沒有要重新啟動奮勇就對了我吃三碗牛肉麵給你看 羅總統喔李鴻二千年的十月以前 我太了解他了嘛愛吃雞腿 怕潘西 怕人家說"},{"start":6949.531,"end":6960.353,"text":"要比較明顯的 比較大方的已經達到恢復的價格就對世界的搞事情對所有民進黨的先行先行都會搞事情應該靠入兩千三百萬人的幸福靠入台灣未來AI的發展不然是要AI什麼 變AI不是AI我講的就是 你的單位有辦法今天如果是台電的提出"},{"start":6979.107,"end":6981.028,"text":"這本來就是核安會的職責能不能做到 你們有沒有能力做到"},{"start":7004.944,"end":7014.93,"text":"有沒有能力我們檢查 我們評估如果用安全 我才會讓它運轉我知道 不是運轉嘛 你有沒有能力去檢測"},{"start":7016.697,"end":7042.582,"text":"檢測能力當然是有那檢測全部安全檢測通過他才能取得繼續運轉對不對這裡面包括機竹包括管路包括土木基建全部通通要少說也要有1000多項少說也要有1000多項所以我們是做得到的現在就是政治問題啦現在就不是能源問題啦"},{"start":7044.332,"end":7070.804,"text":"甚至問題如果能克服那你們又能幫他做百分之百的安全檢測那台電又願意提出來台灣確實是可以提前提前再度使用核能這樣啦 我們給他半天的時間就是說今年是2025年嘛那今年5月17剛剛達到非核家園嘛"},{"start":7073.406,"end":7092.64,"text":"我們這台美女,她的元旦講話,可以確稱,龍珠灰頭金不凡啊我會靠電話跟她說,美女我已經處理了你現在也不太好啊,我都可以跟老總統說,所以你們要準備準備開始做整個福林電廠營業的安全檢測,你們做得到嗎?"},{"start":7101.164,"end":7117.034,"text":"這本來就是台電如果求申請的話所以你已經準備好了河岸會的職責啊所以說河岸會早已經準備好了這河岸會法律職責真好這我聽了就很滿意所以台灣鄉親你們就知道沒問題技術沒問題檢測沒問題有安全靠負擔現在是政治問題你們聽得懂嗎所以你們70幾%支持負擔是正確的"},{"start":7132.561,"end":7150.045,"text":"我請教你,在我們台灣,我們現在台灣,老總統說的,他說三點,其實他兩天來已經說四半了,不排除重新使用核能,他是最後一半才說SMR,"},{"start":7153.757,"end":7163.623,"text":"所以在他內心你要懂得讀他的心啦他內心是要要贏的他知道台灣沒領完 衝刺是沒辦法跟世界競爭的啦我現在請教你就是說在這裡的國家裡面"},{"start":7170.836,"end":7182.526,"text":"有的延20年 美國也有延40年是不是有延40年?是嘛啊 多數都延20年嘛法國大概只有延10年啦40年到50年這樣對不對你認為我們台灣一年三千一年三千如果要啟動延年應該是做10年20年還是40年的規劃"},{"start":7200.814,"end":7206.525,"text":"如果要啟動營業啦不啟動就跟你無所謂嘛要啟動他應該設定在10年"},{"start":7215.656,"end":7228.608,"text":"跟委員說明喔那首先還是要取決於台電公司自己評估然後決定他到底要申請延長多少時間那延長時間比如說他申請5年或10年或20年"},{"start":7232.252,"end":7238.958,"text":"如果他申請10年或20年他提供的相關佐證資料要去證明說這一段時間機組可以延長運轉所以還是取決於台電公司整體的評估然後核安委會去確認說"},{"start":7257.134,"end":7277.45,"text":"他提出來的時間是可以符合法規跟安全的要求那你建議台電應該提出規定?當然如果以目前美國的做法就是先第一次申請延長20年然後之後才申請第二次的延長20年目前美國的做法是這樣這三項有延長20年我跟大家報告我們台灣只有零元港幣"},{"start":7284.77,"end":7304.61,"text":"新本超過二十條新代表超過二十條新代表很客觀我最後問你一個問題 主席我最後結論就是說為什麼我們的太陽磷一套四口水到五口水為什麼印度的太陽磷一套一口而已日本這麼先進 它整個也三口 為什麼"},{"start":7309.315,"end":7318.659,"text":"你們才有答案雖然你們是官府領但太陽能為什麼在台灣變成這樣尤其我的故鄉為什麼我們的太陽能不是像美國兩顆而已美國也兩顆而已為什麼我們不是太陽能的主管機構所以沒辦法這樣好 謝謝謝謝阿里"},{"start":7334.815,"end":7344.458,"text":"外國的 一口 兩口 到三口 三口我們的四口市 到五口里台北的一天五個人 會忙碌更多越報越大天了可憐啊好 謝謝謝榮介委員好 我們官員請回我們等一下在伍麗華委員質詢後我們休息五分鐘我們接下來請張雅玲委員"},{"start":7364.653,"end":7374.092,"text":"好 其實我本來今天沒有打算先問何安慧但我現在剛聽完前面一個的答詢我現在需要請何安慧主委上來好 有請陳主委"},{"start":7375.899,"end":7402.848,"text":"兩件事情我剛剛聽到前面就是剛剛信融界委員他有問說能不能確保這個安全核安會能不能做得到我想先問一下核安會今天這個拆開核電廠因為今天的核管法做的是核一核二核三喔對吧這個主委您清楚嗎我知道非常清楚核一核二核三現在我們都沒有打開來我們要怎麼知道我們到底做得到這個安全的部分呢我們能夠隔空抓藥嗎"},{"start":7404.568,"end":7422.443,"text":"不是 我剛剛回答的意思是說如果要重啟的話一定要安全他有問你說能不能確保而且我們沒有說他一定可以合乎我們的要求不保證他申請我們就會通過剛剛我好像沒有聽到你說什麼不保證他申請一定會通過這句話我坐在這邊聽我是真的沒聽到"},{"start":7429.408,"end":7445.359,"text":"我覺得這件事情我先給你一個時間我把我時間給你 請你說清楚我們現在這個程序到底要花多久的時間而且據我所知我們其實還要找國際的同僚單位一起來檢測這個核安欸不是只有核安會自己說就算欸 對吧所以可不可以請"},{"start":7445.919,"end":7460.464,"text":"主委再講一次這個核安的申請流程台電送了申請之後大概需要多少時間然後流程是什麼可不可以再說明清楚一次讓所有人知道現在我們絕對沒有辦法說出安全這件事情可不可以簡單說明一下"},{"start":7462.605,"end":7489.64,"text":"這個首先要台電先提出申請台電要做很多工作準備工作包括老化評估等等這部分請高組長做詳細的說明那跟委員說明喔首先那個大院所通過的核管法修正條文核安委要配合修訂執法那修訂執法的時候我們要參考國內情境跟國外的做法要納到執法裡面去嚴定相關的管制要求跟一些安全的技術規範等"},{"start":7491.661,"end":7510.98,"text":"那這個執法訂完之後,台電公司本身就要依照執法的相關規定去盤點那個重啟的所需要的工作項目、安全條件等等如果現場部分要取決於台電公司自己本身的規劃時程"},{"start":7512.381,"end":7527.568,"text":"那他這部分他到底要花多少時間確實目前很難去了解因為目前的國際的狀況也不太一樣我記得國際的時間是5到15年嗎對不對還是今天台電有人來可以補充說明嗎我記得我看的資料是5到15年嗎"},{"start":7530.789,"end":7553.26,"text":"跟委員說明 照之前的法規規定是五年前要提出來主要是說核安衛審查時間跟台電公司在執照到期前可以做一些設備的檢查那目前的情境確實不一樣因為機組都進到廚藝所以廚藝的狀態跟運轉狀態完全都是不太一樣但是要做的老化評估等等設備檢查是不可以少的"},{"start":7553.74,"end":7574.345,"text":"那因為狀況不一樣所以他所需要要做更多的事情那這部分也要參考國際的經驗然後回饋進來而且我們在做這個安全不是我們自己說了算嗎還是要有國際的同僚單位一起來做嘛對不對然後再加上我們還有斷層的問題嘛所以這件事情是絕對我們現在根本說不出安全這兩個字吧對吧"},{"start":7575.765,"end":7590.471,"text":"這個東西我覺得之後如果還有人提問的話請主委一定要清楚的把整件事情完整的說明不然這樣聽起來好像核安會都可以搞定了事實上根本不是這完全不是我們的意思對 所以我的意思是說申請的時候我們可以把關如果我們認為有安全餘地我們也可能可以把它撥回並不是申請的時候"},{"start":7597.334,"end":7625.96,"text":"我的意思是說並不是只有荷蘭會自己說了算嘛 對不對所以你還要跟國際嘛 對不對是是是 所以你不能只有說荷蘭會自己做得到其實還要跟別人一起來合作嘛 對吧這部分要講清楚然後我也要再澄清一點喔這個其實五月初的時候我去了美國到時候我們也有問美國商務部有關SMR的商轉大概什麼時候可以那美國是這樣回答我的他說目前還沒有 目前還看不到"},{"start":7627,"end":7638.312,"text":"所以我覺得這點是要做個清楚的說明請國民黨不要再一直講說美國 美國說可以絕對沒有這件事情這是我親口跟商務部來做確認的好 那接下來我先回到中研院 抱歉請中研院"},{"start":7651.715,"end":7669.3,"text":"我想先請教一下中研院中研院其實是我們台灣最重要的一個學術研究機構但是從NATURE INDEX上面我們可以看到2019年我們學了209名到2024年變成341名我想知道這是發生了什麼事情可不可以簡單說明一下"},{"start":7670.505,"end":7688.299,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下這種排名的事情世界上有很多很多種所以我們不能單看一種而且這些排名出來的都是那種盈利機構為主的這些公司排出來的"},{"start":7690.521,"end":7706.419,"text":"我們事後可以給委員一些比較詳細的報告在不同的這種所以總簡單來說聽起來是我們在其他的研究報告裡其他的排名上面我們還是有佔據一個不錯的位置是嗎在其實你看要看什麼樣的指標然後看它用什麼樣的這個原則"},{"start":7708.942,"end":7727.18,"text":"还有他的来解所以这个有很多的面向好那这个时候我们就时间来讨论好不好因为这也不是我今天最主要的题目最主要的题目其实是说我其实也有发现我们中研院在国际学术的期刊里面发表非常大量的一些论文而且其实都在很不错的期刊像Nature跟Science像是我们的行星科学家叶勇"},{"start":7728.801,"end":7752.551,"text":"選院士呢他發表的論文有500多篇其中60篇就是刊登在這種頂尖的期刊那生物學家李文雄院士呢則以數理方面方法來研究我們的分子演化那也都在我們的國際期刊上面發表了很多重要的一個成果那同時呢我們也知道說其實呢這個中研院呢一直在跟我們世界的頂尖的一些機構做很多的交流"},{"start":7753.649,"end":7775.146,"text":"也有签署一些合作的协议来推动双方互访那并且支持我国的这些学会呢加入国际的科学协会来促进台湾学者参与全球社群让台湾被看见让台湾的影响力被世界给重视那但是呢我们今年呢我们的业务费冻结了30%差旅费三减了15%"},{"start":7777.248,"end":7785.812,"text":"那我就很想要知道因為我仔細再看下去我們的國外旅費大概是三減了2138萬教育訓練費大概是557萬國內旅費505萬總計是3200萬所以我想要知道到底這樣子影響了我們哪些國際的學術活動無法進行可不可以說明一下"},{"start":7799.48,"end":7823.473,"text":"對 這個的確會讓我們要重新考慮一些跟國際交流的活動哪些可能要被減少一些那實際影響是什麼那我們請國際處的處長來回答張委員 國際處處長報告我們最主要的影響是跟尤其是跟歐洲一些重要科學院的雙邊交流的計畫那這個的確是有受到一些影響"},{"start":7824.633,"end":7827.258,"text":"那這樣子的影響會讓我們原本要派出去出訪的人員可能就沒有辦法有預期的這個數目"},{"start":7836.894,"end":7856.057,"text":"但我想再仔細的請教一下就是以前你們可能會派一個團隊一起去嘛那現在人變少到底對中研院因為我還是一直要強調中研院就是台灣的大腦嘛到底實質的影響可不可以再說明清楚一點最實質的影響應該是對於正在進行訓練的這一些學生或者是博后"},{"start":7856.737,"end":7877.816,"text":"那本來我們會希望盡量送這些年輕人可以出去那在經費限縮的情況之下原本假設我們想要今年送十個人出去可能現在就只能送五個人大概這個會是比較大的影響所以等於是說我們本來是想要送年輕學子是打開眼界嘛對不對然後透過這些國際的交流上面也可以竄離他自己未來在研究上面的一些人脈對不對是是"},{"start":7878.737,"end":7907.176,"text":"但是現在這些年輕學子的機會都消失了嘛對不對會下修這個必須要下修就大幅減半嘛剛提起來是這樣子可能沒有到減半但是會有大概百分之二十左右的影響二十左右的影響那我想這可能也會影響到未來我們持續的產出一些更優秀的一些研究那我也想問一下就是說因為我看了整個預算分布在生物科學門也就是我剛剛講的這個李文雄院士的部分總共是被凍結了兩億"},{"start":7911.101,"end":7919.433,"text":"兩億五千八百四十三萬那這個會不會也影響到我們一個這麼重要學者的一些研究進度呢是不是也可以說明一下呢"},{"start":7921.403,"end":7941.329,"text":"那個應該是在生命科學的那個工作計畫下各所中心整體來說那我們會在現在目前凍結的狀況下我們也跟各所中心有一些溝通我們在在盡量能希望能夠減少這些後面的影響"},{"start":7942.269,"end":7969.723,"text":"但是有些的計畫大家心理上也就有一點趨於保守那我們希望這件事情能夠趕快解決我們可以我想問一下那我們如果今天可以順利解凍這件事情有沒有哪一些是已經造成不可逆的影響了因為我想還是需要說明讓大家知道這件事情對於中研院的影響到底有多麼的重大這樣子對 那不可因為我們現在走到五月對 那請一些"},{"start":7971.144,"end":7982.032,"text":"委員我想不肯定的影響主要還是國外旅費因為這個國外旅費是通山15%那種植是解凍之後這個已經刪除的旅費我們還是就沒有辦法運用這個影響應該還是會持續"},{"start":7984.079,"end":8002.912,"text":"OK 好了解喔那我想就是說因為其實我看了一下我們還有一些剛剛講的是說聽起來我們的有一些研究啦都比較保守然後可能規模也會縮小但我想更清楚的問一下因為有一些我們連水電費也有受影響嘛那我們一些電子儀器的部分呢"},{"start":8003.852,"end":8015.262,"text":"電子的儀器包含像是我們的實驗室要恆溫啊對不對我們的一些量子電腦啊這些都已經要受到這個水電費的影響之後我們現在初步大概有多少的個案會受到影響這邊有統計資料嗎"},{"start":8018.182,"end":8028.032,"text":"目前為止我們還沒有統計資料是因為說這些高階儀器在沒電運轉會很麻煩但是我們現在是凍結所以我們盡量在這個時候還是維持的這些高階儀器能夠不受損傷因為受損傷以後後面的後續就很難處理了"},{"start":8036.82,"end":8057.211,"text":"所以聽起來是我們先保持了高階儀器啦但是可能有一些其他的我們就會先犧牲了對不對因為必須做一個經費的調整嘛可能等到今天解凍了之後再有辦法去恢復其他的一些支應嘛對不對高階儀器我們都會事先預先的能夠優先的能夠保持住"},{"start":8058.011,"end":8072.22,"text":"好那真的也是非常辛苦中研院那接下來我也想要再請教一下有關於AI基本法的一個問題就是說因為我們最近大家其實都在討論這個AI基本法那我想要跟院長副院長請教一下就是說"},{"start":8075.542,"end":8094.913,"text":"我們從國外看到了非常多的案例像這是2024年10月一個有點憂鬱焦慮的一個年輕人他在跟AI機器人聊天的時候他傾訴這些狀況他就表達他想要自殺但是AI機器人竟然也鼓勵他去做了這件事情最後這個年輕人就離開了這個世界"},{"start":8097.154,"end":8125.14,"text":"那所以呢這就變成是說到底我們在這些深層式的AI我們對於科技的發展產業的發展跟倫理以及我們的兒少保護到底那個界線要劃在哪裡那我知道之前中研院也有派人來參加這個AI這個那個公聽會AI基本法的一個公聽會所以我想要了解就是說我們這條界線包含我們在修法的時候我們應該如何的來修想請教中研院的意見因為除了這件事情之外還有像是說"},{"start":8126.32,"end":8147.056,"text":"我們在有人他自己被誤植為他是這個性騷擾犯被AI拿去說這個性騷擾犯然後還有有人的資歷被不實的被那個記錄在這個checkGPT裡面這個AI裡面或是說大家在訓練資料的時候沒有取得授權就來"},{"start":8148.217,"end":8167.49,"text":"做這個訓練,那其實這都是一些倫理的問題所以我不曉得是不是可以請邱文聰處長是不是可以給我們一些建議讓我們在修這個法的時候可以盡量的去兼顧好,我們請法律專家來回答"},{"start":8168.796,"end":8191.973,"text":"委員好 針對您剛提到的幾個問題其實因為眾議院本身並不是這個基本法的主管機關那我們大概只能夠從學術研究的角度來提供一些我們的想法的建議那其實最主要的問題應該是說基本法它本身比較沒有作用法上面在各個領域上面的規制的效果"},{"start":8192.573,"end":8221.693,"text":"所以如您刚提到的一些应用包括儿少的一些使用的情境或者是说针对有自杀倾向的人的一些相关的应用其实比较难在基本法的这个层次上面去做规范而需要落实到不同领域的作用法上面去把不同的风险应用情境可能产生的风险来加以定义之后才能够预规制那因为台湾本身应该是说每个国家"},{"start":8222.473,"end":8246.632,"text":"自己對於風險的認知可能都不太一樣所以比如說像歐盟的AIA它自己雖然有定有它的分級但是那是在歐洲的情境下他們對於這種AI使用的風險的認知跟他們可以承受的程度那就台灣而言的話我們可能就需要就台灣自己的文化自己的社會跟價值來出發去找到一個適當的一個風險的分級的標準以上"},{"start":8255.618,"end":8272.989,"text":"我想我可不可以跟你事後約個時間我們在這一點上面來仔細的請教那我最後再講一件事情就是說其實我也看到我們在這個中研院呢它其實也有發表一個相關的研究幫助兒童避免熱傷害那其實呢我在去年的預算提案裡面也有提到一個希望中研院來針對這個熱傷害的預防指引能夠有"},{"start":8277.071,"end":8285.18,"text":"一些應用推廣的預防相關計畫做一些粗嘆性的研究那我不曉得說目前有沒有一些相關的進度可不可以簡單說明一下這樣子"},{"start":8290.15,"end":8318.796,"text":"環變中心主任陳雲高簡單回應一下這件事情跟我們的研究的一個成果有關係但是我們因為是研究機關所以我們把我們的東西已經呈報到衛福部那看後續衛福部那邊如果要採取進一步的措施的時候如果還需要一些研究的成果我們可以再繼續的幫他們做一些內容好沒關係我們待會會後聊好了好不好好謝謝我就不再用時間了謝謝"},{"start":8320.316,"end":8330.443,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝張雅玲委員 官員請回那我們接下來請伍麗華委員質詢那伍麗華委員質詢完 我們休息五分鐘謝謝主席 有請何安慧有請何安慧 陳主委"},{"start":8343.989,"end":8365.762,"text":"主委好 今天521那在5月17號我們的核三要停機除疫的前夕我們立法院在5月13號有去把核管法的修法三讀通過那大家都說就是等於是重啟核一核二核三研議幫他開綠燈啦"},{"start":8368.083,"end":8381.613,"text":"那開完了綠燈呢昨天520那我們又表決通過了這個公投的這個核三研議的公投那這個主文你看一下"},{"start":8382.954,"end":8401.322,"text":"這個主文它有被修過喔它是做修正動議之後說您是否同意第三核能發電廠經主管機關同意確認無安全疑慮後繼續運轉原本是沒有主管機關同意喔"},{"start":8402.302,"end":8414.45,"text":"這是修正動議之後也就是說呢要把所有的球要丟給和安會丟給台電那請教主委您覺得怎麼樣有沒有覺得責任重大還是稀鬆平常和安會是個監管單位對於"},{"start":8423.246,"end":8441.113,"text":"要不要使用核電 要不要研議 要不要重啟這核安會沒有既定立場所以我們核安會那怎麼辦呢 你沒有既定立場他說公投的主文說要經主管機關同意確認無安全疑慮"},{"start":8443.575,"end":8469.184,"text":"我們的理解是要不要提起研議或重啟應該是台電跟他的主管機關來做決定的所以意思就是說跟核安會沒有關係所以你的意思是說這個指的是台電跟經濟部他們要提出申請我們在按照有沒有台電在這邊"},{"start":8472.091,"end":8493.777,"text":"好像沒有所以這個部分您認為這個公投組文跟你們無關因為是台電要提出申請是經濟部要同意確認無安全疑慮是這樣嗎是由經濟部來同意確認安全無疑慮經濟部提出我們用核安會才能夠來審查"},{"start":8498.08,"end":8523.845,"text":"昨天張啟凱委員這麼說他說從現在開始要不要用核電就看台電要不要提出申請 您說的對看看民進黨政府有沒有去做安全檢查檢查完才可以用那民進黨政府有沒有去做安全檢查主委 你有沒有去做安全檢查現在還沒有 還沒有啊你要不要去做安全檢查"},{"start":8527.048,"end":8531.153,"text":"要先評估啊對啊那你 誰評估這個部分的程序的話我想請我們那個高組長再詳細說明一下喔 來跟委員說明喔"},{"start":8543.112,"end":8570.178,"text":"會議裡面核安會目前就按照大院所修正的核管法條文去配合修訂執法跟一些管制的要求當然這個過程中我們會參考一些國際的要求跟國內情境然後訂一些相關的技術規範跟管制的一些要求事項所以你們承認嘛 到底安不安全之後台電公司要按照這個去確認他現場設備然後看他要不要申請"},{"start":8571.798,"end":8597.327,"text":"他確認完評估確認說他有沒有重啟的條件那如果他認為說他符合安全要求跟法規要求那也經過國際的同儕檢視說他可以申請的話那他就要向河岸會提出依照法規提出要不要做環評這部分依照法規的話要由環境主管機關來認定所以也不是你們對 照法規來所以河岸會管的是什麼就是確認訂定執法"},{"start":8599.286,"end":8619.479,"text":"台電公司提出申請也完成現場檢查確定他要提出申請之後那核安委會去審查他的安全評估報告跟現場去查證所以顯然意思就是說我們的整個社會其實搞不清楚哪一個部會管什麼哪一個部會負責什麼哪一個部會主管什麼對不對表示我們的社會大眾搞不清楚啊"},{"start":8624.244,"end":8636.312,"text":"但是大家都知道一件事就是我們的修法通過了也要公投了然後全國2300多萬的人"},{"start":8641.297,"end":8669.298,"text":"要幫這個公投河山 恆春 車城 滿洲 牡丹請問一下主委您知不知道這四個鄉鎮人口數多少報告員 我並不知道我跟您說不到五萬人我知道人數不多不到五萬人也就是說不到千分之二然後我們要來舉辦公投"},{"start":8670.916,"end":8694.284,"text":"您覺得合理嗎?這個東西我們沒有這個沒有這個既定立場要不要公投我們只是負責好沒有關係因為我今天看到我們這個新增通過決議解凍書面報告就有提到這個結語的部分他說"},{"start":8698.393,"end":8726.023,"text":"要求台電公司推動中期暫時儲存設施方案以為因應並展開社會溝通然後第三點有提到和安會處召開處置管制討論會議加強監督台電處置計畫作業外將持續邀集經濟部及原民會召開會議共同督促台電公司推動中期暫時儲存設施方案"},{"start":8728.585,"end":8748.746,"text":"來 請教一下主委 方案是什麼報告委員 這個方案是行政院非核家園小組要求台電公司在地方選址困難的情況下希望能夠興建一個中期暫時儲存設施來做因應我剛剛都念過了"},{"start":8749.733,"end":8769.559,"text":"是 所以這個方案其實就是要興建一個中期暫時儲存設施那請教一下 你們說要持續邀集經濟部 園民會召開會議這是什麼意思 園民會要做什麼提供土地"},{"start":8773.631,"end":8799.83,"text":"這個方案裡面其實它目前經濟部要負責督促台電公司去做選址的工作那因為這個方案其實它因為也涉及到那個在兩公約裡面有一個有一個議案說明那這個兩公約裡面的這個相關的議案是由原民會當協辦由經濟部跟河岸會當主辦所以原民會要負責什麼"},{"start":8801.211,"end":8817.402,"text":"他來瞭解我們的進度而已不是提供土地不是確定確定真的會記錄下來喔是好那我希望齁社會溝通我知道你們一直都在做阿社會溝通的成果是什麼真的如他們所講的嗎我們70%的民意都贊成嗎社會溝通的成果是這個嗎我剛剛說了喔"},{"start":8830.72,"end":8835.71,"text":"在河山那邊 對他們有領發電金 他們有電協會台電有給他們發電金但是"},{"start":8842.818,"end":8864.97,"text":"蘭嶼他要把低放的核廢料要趕出蘭嶼40年沒有成功還有委員曾經公然的在質詢台上對原民會主委說蘭嶼人不想簽出核廢料因為這樣他們就沒有辦法享受優惠引起嘩然"},{"start":8869.997,"end":8883.728,"text":"那現在也有人放風聲說恆春插成滿洲牡丹的人也希望河山能夠繼續研議因為他們有補償金這個是社會溝通的成果嗎這確實有證據嗎可以講這樣的話嗎那蘭嶼人這40年做了多少的抗爭"},{"start":8898.12,"end":8926.662,"text":"要把這個惡靈趕走都是假的嗎我想這個社會溝通這樣子做是很糟糕的我們不能接受我希望河安會也好不要老是講到台電經濟部因為我們也都會去質詢園民會我們也會去質詢但是不可以去拿出這樣的一個社會溝通成果非常的歧視非常的傷害人沒有人希望自己的土地是骯髒的"},{"start":8927.813,"end":8954.601,"text":"那些高喊的人他連一點點的核食核安他都不能接受他怎麼能夠接受核能可能產生的一個無法彌補回復的巨大危害呢這是很奇怪的一件事情所以我們常常講別有居心啊啊我們的電我每次台電董事長也很生氣啊不要再拿電費漲價跟核電有關係"},{"start":8957.662,"end":8962.644,"text":"主委 你是專家 如果我們的電要漲 是因為跟核電有關係嗎你不能每次都講主管業 你是專家 至少比我是專家啊"},{"start":8979.028,"end":9004.979,"text":"我覺得這個部分還是由主管單位回答比較適合我們只是負責核能安全的部分而已我想因為時間到我們要問中研院就下次再問但是我想這個部分核安會責無旁貸你們是講核安第一連核廢都處理不來核廢就已經是很不核安了很不安全了"},{"start":9006.239,"end":9019.405,"text":"我希望河安這個地方能夠拿出一些態度好不好好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝委員好 謝謝吳麗華委員主委請回那我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9043.183,"end":9050.98,"text":"吃到你們都會很驕傲"},{"start":9351.787,"end":9367.258,"text":"報告委員會我們現在繼續開會那我們再重新宣告一次在本席李警委員質詢完畢之後我們就來處理解凍案好那我們現在請葉元芝委員質詢主委好 麻煩請找何安慧主委"},{"start":9380.555,"end":9382.396,"text":"好有請陳主委主委好那個剛剛我看到很多委員都有談到之前我們有通過核管法那核管法通過後有一位我們這個總統府氣候變遷對策副召集人童子賢他是大家的讚揚"},{"start":9405.723,"end":9434.122,"text":"那這個所謂的總統府氣候變遷對策委員會是賴清德總統非常重要政績因為我看到他在拍影片的時候特別提到他有成立這三個委員會是很好的政績那裡面其中一個委員會的副召集人童子賢又是這麼的肯定核管法我來念一下他說通過核管法代表多年來台灣民主社會透過直接民意與間接民意已經清楚表達老百姓厭倦"},{"start":9435.063,"end":9458.271,"text":"也否決非核家園的政策而且他也提到最近的能源政策很多問題啊有漲電價造成空污而且碳排過高還有地方派系侵蝕綠能利益而且讓天然氣的供電韌性也飽受威脅等等啊所以對於一個總統重大政績裡面的委員會的一個副召集人如此肯定橫管法 合管法"},{"start":9459.215,"end":9488.424,"text":"那我又看到那麼多的民進黨的立委反對核管法這是網內互打嗎還是童子賢在打臉民進黨立委像比如說像黃婕那時候核管法的時候她說哎呀通過核管法就是要讓什麼老舊研議啊那個核三廠已經機組已經這麼舊故障率大增然後講一大堆那現在是童子賢打臉黃婕還是黃婕打臉童子賢我現在要問主委啊主委你是核管法的主管機關嘛"},{"start":9490.222,"end":9514.153,"text":"是請問一下核管法的那條修正案是說通過以後核三就馬上研議嗎還是核一核二就馬上研議有嗎不是的按照文字的理解如果大家沒有閱讀障礙講的只是說放寬那個研議的法規限制嘛對吧如果今天核一核二核三要研議的話是不是還必須要經過核安的"},{"start":9515.303,"end":9542.204,"text":"確定還有核廢的處理跟社會共識嘛這個是總統講的嘛沒錯吧所以不是核官法通過立刻研議沒錯吧所以就很奇怪我那時候看到很多民進黨的立委在反對核官法的理由都讓你覺得很奇怪因為沒有人會在核安有餘裕的情況之下希望核安法研議嘛所以昨天在立法院有一個公投案剛剛我也有看到別的委員講啦"},{"start":9543.723,"end":9557.132,"text":"是這個核三廠的研議公投講的也是說讓大家再確定比如主管機關確定安全無虞然後是不是要研議嘛所以大家其實都是把核安看得非常的重要"},{"start":9558.052,"end":9575.913,"text":"而且總統講說如果核定要研議那要有社會有共識什麼叫社會共識公投就可以取得社會共識不然什麼叫社會共識那我現在要指出一個核安會接下來一個很重要的責任因為現在核三公投非常有可能在今年的8月23號投票"},{"start":9576.474,"end":9605.357,"text":"到時候河山假設要研議它是安全的還是不安全的必須要有一個具有公信力的機關來出來做說明這不是說大家自己在這邊憑空想像它安全或不安全它必須要有一個機關出來真正做檢測然後為大家來示疑請問一下河安會這個部分你們有再去做檢測嗎河山場到底安全或不安全"},{"start":9607.726,"end":9621.324,"text":"這個部分呢需要由台電來提出申請這些細節部分我請那個高市長跟委員說明一下什麼意思昨天你可不可以對著麥克風講話我說這個部分呢"},{"start":9625.228,"end":9647.796,"text":"台電需要要提出申請台電依據他們的需要老化程度等各種因素所以台電如果沒有提出申請 核安會就不能夠確保核三廠它是安全的或者是不安全的台電 核安會就不會處理這個事情所以這重點就是說假設台電他不去跟核安會申請那"},{"start":9650.131,"end":9672.088,"text":"核安會是不管的 也不會確保說即便是核安會對於這個廠 你有安全疑慮 你也不會去了解就讓台電自己來處理 是這個意思那請問一下核安會 核安會沒有在確定核安全喔是被動的等人家來申請 才會去確定喔就一部分請高組長說明一下"},{"start":9674.608,"end":9688.008,"text":"跟委員說明,核管法三讀通過後,核安會就會配合修正的條文,要修訂執法,然後要理解你一些管制的要求。那這些技術細節的話,我們會參考國際的做法。"},{"start":9690.131,"end":9715.401,"text":"那原本核管法的執法裡面有一些老化的管理這部分要處理那目前的狀況因為核電廠都已經進入處理了那機組的狀況跟當時候核管法所設定的情境不一樣所以那個目前的機組要做的事情比當時候順利在運轉期間申請延長運轉的東西還要多所以這部分"},{"start":9716.241,"end":9744.31,"text":"台電公司要依照會裡面所定的執法跟相關的管制規定去盤點評估那有沒有重啟的一些條件安全的需求必須要做哪些事情那這部分台電公司要先去針對現場的設備然後重新評估去確認那如果他確認完之後認為說他需要提出申請換照那核安會就會進行安全審查跟現場查證確認他要符合法規跟管制的要求"},{"start":9744.89,"end":9763.711,"text":"當然這個過程當中因為我沒有那麼多時間討論這些細節所以你講的重點簡單講就是說台電他要先假設他有演藝需求的時候他才會去送核安會讓核安會來確認說他有沒有安全的問題他要自己先評估他自己要評估嘛"},{"start":9764.252,"end":9788.895,"text":"那他要評估然後根據核管法他要研議的話他才會他先評估安不安全然後才會送核安會嘛核安會是不會主動去了解他安全或不安全嗎過程中我們會去去視察透過視察的方法所以我們現在我們今天8月23票8月23號大家投票前如果台電他沒有去做這個動作的話我們並沒有辦法得到核安會的一個報告或者是告訴社會大眾他是安全還是不安全"},{"start":9790.066,"end":9813.264,"text":"沒有辦法那這樣子8月23號公投我覺得既然這個案子已經進入到8月23號這個公投案如果政府機關可以多負起責任不是被動的去接受別人的申請我覺得是比較有助於社會大眾做出判斷不然的話這個到底安不安全這個到底是誰說的算當然是核安會是最權威的機關"},{"start":9815.081,"end":9836.842,"text":"呃 跟我原說明的話沒關係我後面還有別的問題啦那 再來啦因為政府一直講說我們不排除不排除核能嘛特別是針對一些新型的核能像SMR這個很多人都在講這個東西我想要確定一下主委就你的了解台灣可能部署SMR大概是什麼時候啊"},{"start":9839.182,"end":9860.287,"text":"SMR國際研已經有一些廠商開始做研究了目前大概2030年國際才會有商業化的2030年才會有商業化那台灣部署大概什麼時候如果可行的話一定是2030年以後的事情這部分請高組長跟委員說明高組長不是高院長"},{"start":9863.044,"end":9880.749,"text":"是 報告委員 那個因為就是西方世界比較成熟的要2013年商品化那個過程不用再解釋了我現在是問說到底什麼時候當然定一個目標說我們不排斥新集合的人那到底什麼時候不會到2040還是2050的吧我們現在一個計畫 四年級的計畫我知道喔 我還幫你用紅筆列出來你有一個四年級SM大規模的計畫每年要爭取一億經費啊"},{"start":9888.971,"end":9910.885,"text":"那四年之後就是2029年啊那2029年我們就會有SMR嗎商轉化以後就是成本全面的幾個模組會比較貴所以也許二三十個模組以後它的價錢或cost down下來技術會比較穩定成熟所以也許商轉以後也許再過個兩年一兩年兩三年國家台灣再來決定要不要引起所以是2025加420292029再加2"},{"start":9916.276,"end":9933.829,"text":"2031年再來考慮這幾個不同的商業的M3R的模組然後考慮要用哪一種 是不是我們的模組在四年計畫會提出一個建立看使用哪一個模組所以按照你的講法是2031年嘛是嘛 所以何安會的講法是說2031年可能我們就會決定SMR就可以開始部署"},{"start":9943.188,"end":9959.709,"text":"我們沒有誤會你的意思那時候才判可不可行那時候才判可不可行那看可不可行還要多久才會開始興建2031年我們大概就知道就知道了那好那確定2031年可以確定要做不做那要做之後那興建一個要多久"},{"start":9961.128,"end":9988.683,"text":"那現在時間是比較短大概多久三年所以2031再加3是2034差不多差不多等於是十年後我們可能可以用到SMR的這個電是不是如果證明可行的話十年後還需要滿足核安核肺射入物質的調整那我接下來繼續問因為有很多專家學者也有提到說SMR的核廢料"},{"start":9992.415,"end":10015.647,"text":"那我們現在核廢到底要怎麼處理?像SMR是現在你們研究的方向嘛,那SMR如果有核廢料的話要怎麼處理?SMR的核廢料有些跟比線差不多,有些比較少,所以不是一定比較多不是一定比較多,我知道那所以你現在是確定選擇商轉的SMR是要選擇核廢料比較少的是不是?"},{"start":10016.948,"end":10023.294,"text":"應該是這樣應該是要選核廢料那比較少還是會有嗎還是那你們現在怎麼去處理這些核廢料這個不能請問"},{"start":10024.298,"end":10040.492,"text":"報告委員 那個核廢料分兩種SMR產生第一放的核廢料跟現在的第一放是一樣的處理方式他產生的告放就是先固化 然後儲存然後將來 將來是要送最終處置廠那最終處置廠現在計畫在哪裡現在計畫在台電在執行中"},{"start":10050.14,"end":10075.904,"text":"我今天沒有把那個表格列出來啊這個每一次大家都在問這個啊最東廚師廠定一個計畫出來但是到底進度有沒有按照那個計畫進行嗎有嗎?他這個師生有言辭這個我都知道了我之前問過我就不重複問了那再來我來問因為我們大家關心這個東西都主要是怕缺電嘛怕缺電才會問這個東西我問一下中研院好不好"},{"start":10080.723,"end":10103.77,"text":"跟中原會請教一下氫能的問題這個是中原會報告裡面講的跟台電公司合作在113年6月提案114到117年度公共建設計畫有一個天然氣去碳燃氫的一個系統建置跟試驗計畫是四年的那裡面裡面寫到是說到時候是會把這個燃氫的技術串接到燃氣的發電機"},{"start":10105.63,"end":10121.025,"text":"換句話說,按照字面上的理解,它會增加發電嗎?還是說它只是把原來燃天然氣的機組,把它改成燃氫?是把原來的機組做一些...所以它並不會增加發電嗎?我們請那個...你們為什麼講話都那麼小聲?可以對麥克風講話嗎?那我們請環面中心陳於高主任跟委員詳細報告"},{"start":10130.489,"end":10153.887,"text":"好各位原報告燃氣就是原來的天然氣轉成氫氣來燃燒電力不會增加那可能還會犧牲一小部分的這個電力不過呢產出的是無碳的電對我知道我剛剛講說我們現在在討論會不會缺電問題嘛因為政府一直告訴大家啦我們現在綠能有很大的發展有兩個部分一個是燃氫另外一個是地熱對不對那"},{"start":10158.151,"end":10184.353,"text":"這個論述的方式是跟大家說大家不用擔心啦我們現在技術很好啦我們有地熱會增加發電啦藍青會增加發電可是按照剛剛中原委員的說法沒有啊只是把藍天藍氣串接到藍青而且他剛剛那個主任講的說法還是說他還可能會消耗一些電力啊所以藍青沒有增加電力啊只是減碳嘛沒錯吧"},{"start":10185.31,"end":10207.815,"text":"所以這個沒有辦法增加電力我們現在想要知道的是政府發展綠能有什麼方式可以比如說大家現在都說要非核非核那之後綠能怎麼去補這一塊藍青看起來是沒有辦法他只能減碳是委員剛剛已經說了地熱的發展就是來補這一塊的因為我們原來是沒有地熱的對 那地熱現在的計畫是什麼"},{"start":10209.595,"end":10225.316,"text":"現在地熱我們從淺層的往深層的去深層去它的量體就會比較大所以這未來的一段時間在地熱的探勘上會著力的比較多地熱我下一次有時間我再跟中研院請教那接下來我想問一下中研院人才招募的問題"},{"start":10226.714,"end":10245.294,"text":"這個是中研院人才培育跟研染計畫我看前面有前面兩項一個是研染資深學人另外一個是與國內大學培育國際研究生計畫這兩項計畫應該都是朝國際招攬招攬人才嘛但是它就出現一個就是目標值跟實際值的落差譬如說"},{"start":10246.255,"end":10263.136,"text":"比如說我們看第一項延展資深學人113年度目標值10人但實際值只有3人114年度也是一樣目標值只有10人實際值只有3人想問一下說為什麼總是沒有辦法招到足額的優秀人才來 鍾妍玉好的"},{"start":10264.077,"end":10285.354,"text":"跟委员报告现在这个表当初只是立了三年其实111年的时候实际值其实有九人最近这个是资深学人资深学人的意思是说他在国外已经有或者是有长聘的职位或者是有一些讲座的职位这些人"},{"start":10286.696,"end":10313.058,"text":"對我們來講都是一個很大的挑戰希望他們能夠到台灣來工作有的並不是台灣的中華民國國籍我知道我是問說為什麼目標跟實際有落差有些這個期望目標值但我們設的都蠻高的所以實際上是因為目標值設太高是不是我們可能會再看以後看把目標值調低喔"},{"start":10313.871,"end":10325.116,"text":"不是我們會盡力努力啦我想我們希望這個都能夠能夠達到因為你們設目標值10人實際3其實有很大的落差那我現在問你們困難在哪裡你的講法是說沒有沒什麼困難是因為目標值設太高這個說法就大家比較不能接受那我覺得這邊有一個建議啦你參考一下"},{"start":10336.801,"end":10355.431,"text":"因為川普有篩檢研究經費嘛75%的科學家考慮離開美國那國外呢有一些其他國家已經在考慮招攬這一些因為這個川普篩檢經費離開的這些研究人員像法國歐盟啊他們都有訂出一些計畫然後跟這些招手啦我認為你可以"},{"start":10356.992,"end":10369.819,"text":"參考一下歐洲國家的經驗看他們怎麼去針對這些可能因為美國預算被刪減然後離開出走這些人才讓他們來台灣做研究謝謝委員 只叫關心我們現在正在開始擬定一些計畫針對現在的新的發展"},{"start":10377.824,"end":10387.133,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝葉元芝委員主管請回那我們接下來請吳佩奕委員謝謝主席 我請何安慧好 有請何安慧陳主委"},{"start":10405.796,"end":10420.614,"text":"好主委好因為等會要跟你討論有關於核一核二核三廠我們核廢料處置的問題那因為我今天要問的比較不是大的政策而是細節所以如果有業務相關的同仁要回答就直接來回答就可以了"},{"start":10421.215,"end":10427.739,"text":"那其實我要問的問題有很多時間也有限但是因為我剛剛聽到前面葉元之委員的質詢內容我有一些疑問必須要請教剛剛葉元之委員說這個核管法藍白提出來的修法也已經通過了"},{"start":10436.343,"end":10454.975,"text":"是要讓已經停止運轉的這個核電廠也能夠再次運轉那就包含了核一核二核三但是葉元之委員說如果只要台電沒有提出要再運轉的申請那自然就沒有延續或者繼續運轉的問題我現在請問一下有關於核三廠目前台電有沒有向核安會提出要再運轉的申請沒有"},{"start":10462.6,"end":10471.646,"text":"沒有嘛 對但是呢 昨天在立法院通過了什麼是由藍白來贊成提出通過就是關於核三廠要繼續運轉的公投案所以呢 這個問題我覺得很奇怪確實台電沒有提出申請但是還是立法院的政黨可以的這些立法委員可以來提出公投案那就是國人現在關心的嘛到底核三會不會繼續的運轉"},{"start":10492.519,"end":10512.593,"text":"這個不僅是關乎於台電有沒有提出申請它事實上是可能成為政黨之間的這個提案然後也會對整體社會造成有可能的影響也就是確實核三長在未來是有可能繼續運轉所以我們要關心的是什麼就是核廢料到底要如何處理"},{"start":10514.294,"end":10524.48,"text":"這個不是意識形態裡面之爭我們要務實來看待我請教一下現在我們的核一核二核三廠的燃料棒目前是怎麼處置的"},{"start":10527.353,"end":10553.025,"text":"縣型的情況報告委員目前燃料放就放在水池裡面但是都在放在燃料池內是不是那合一廠的部分因為他的乾除設施已經開始運轉所以已經有陸陸續續會把合一廠的廠內那個燃料池內的用過燃料搬移到乾水處陸續在移動"},{"start":10554.085,"end":10578.871,"text":"所以呢在沒有乾式儲存草的情況下我們現狀這個使用過燃料棒就必須要放在燃料池內是不是這樣子是好那台灣目前我們在規劃的是室外乾除廠有兩座室內乾除廠有三座是不是是所以核三廠我們有沒有規劃室外乾除廠"},{"start":10580.267,"end":10597.928,"text":"河山廠有規劃要興建一座室內乾式儲存對 河山廠我們規劃是室內乾式儲存 室外沒有嘛那現在我們河一 河二廠的這個燃料池內的燃料棒這個是不是已經都幾乎要將近滿足了"},{"start":10600.25,"end":10613.141,"text":"對 幾乎要滿儲所以未來我們合一合二廠的室外乾儲廠你會先做好嘛 室外對 新建完成之後就會把燃料棒從燃料池內移出到乾式儲存廠內 是嗎是的好 那現在和珊廠的燃料池內儲存的燃料棒的情況如何"},{"start":10619.727,"end":10638.131,"text":"你們預計 因為現在是已經除液 已經停止 已經停機了所以目前是沒有持續增加燃料棒的問題但是按照你們原先預估的這個時程目前的燃料池 它的空間還能夠再儲存使用過燃料棒最多是幾年就如同委員所提供的 大概四年多"},{"start":10643.436,"end":10668.202,"text":"四年多在乾除廠衛星艦完成的情況下河山廠的燃料池裡面燃料棒最多最多就是假設不管你要延續還是要再運轉最多最多就是只有四年份的燃料棒我們的燃料池可以儲存嘛對不對那目前在野黨修過的版本核管法的再運轉最長是可以到幾年"},{"start":10670.67,"end":10681.692,"text":"最長是20年 按照新的法規在甘氏儲存廠未興建完成的情況下請問我們河山廠的燃料池有辦法來儲存20年的燃料棒嗎所以沒辦法 那怎麼辦 必須要興建沒有錯 我們現在的甘氏儲存廠 河山廠我們預估最快最快什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":10695.165,"end":10716.115,"text":"跟委員說明台電公司河山廠的室內乾除計畫在今年的2月他已經辦理採購文件的公開閱覽然後台電公司是希望在今年底能夠決標那預期是在121年6月完工啟用他願意規劃啟程"},{"start":10717.566,"end":10736.354,"text":"希望今年底可以絕標 代表什麼都還沒有招標出去啊河山廠的甘廚廠 連招標都還沒有完成我都不要問完工 連動工都沒有動工我們按照最理想的情況 假設今年招標完成 明年動工最快最快也要七年後 121年才有可能完工喔那如果按照現在藍白的提案"},{"start":10741.736,"end":10748.803,"text":"要來公投 今年 明年 河山廠就要來研議 叫無縫接軌來重啟讓你無縫接軌好了 最多再用幾年 再做四年還是得要停機啊 是不是這個樣子因為就是我們一再說的 核電的使用 你要考量是它的這個核廢料如何處置嘛 這個不是未來式 這是現在進行式"},{"start":10765.495,"end":10779.802,"text":"如果研議了 現在無縫接軌直接使用了結果 核三廠的燃料池的核廢料最多最多 你只能再用四年沒地方放 因為該是儲存廠七年以後 最快還是七年喔有可能是八年 九年以後 才會蓋好嘛那請問 四年到了"},{"start":10783.82,"end":10790.488,"text":"是不是就要停機如果不停機那這些使用過的燃料棒請問要放到哪裡燃料池滿了沒地方放了啊這個不是說核廢料放你家還是我家的問題我連乾式廚藥廠都沒有你沒有這個空間怎麼放"},{"start":10798.977,"end":10803.841,"text":"不是兒戲大家開玩笑討論吵架說不然放我家你家沒有燃料池怎麼放對不對這是很務實的問題所以因為接下來這個公投案也提出了未來倘若要舉行公投核安會作為核電廠安全的主管機關我們必須要負責任的向民眾說明倘若要因為他的這個公投提案內的文字大家要注意喔他是說要儘速運轉"},{"start":10826.721,"end":10848.836,"text":"他不是說等你評估好了乾式儲存廠蓋好了再來運轉不是他說要進促所以一定要告訴國人按照我們河山廠既有的這個池燃料池儲存的狀況最多最多也只能再用四年還是得要停機等到就算想要運轉也必須等到我們乾式儲存廠興建完成乾式儲存廠興建完成才有可能有繼續運轉的可能性"},{"start":10857.081,"end":10877.064,"text":"才有可能有他們提案要延長20年的可能性這一點這個資訊我認為一定要讓國人清楚的知道因為我個人認為第一個安全的考量我們之前提過基於安全的考量我也和三長我認為和三長的言議是要三思的第二個即便提出這樣子的方案"},{"start":10878.635,"end":10894.96,"text":"我們要為了再運轉四年還是得要停機為了再運轉四年就要來舉辦這個全國的公投國人知道他們投下去的是河山廠再運轉四年不是運轉二十年這個是事實社會大眾要去思考因為當然都是有利有弊到底是利大於弊還是弊大於利"},{"start":10904.571,"end":10923.385,"text":"他使用的這個效期是否符合這樣子的成本效應呢一定要清楚的讓國人知道這一題在討論的是河山廠再繼續運轉四年不是二十年因為繼續運轉二十年他的前提的條件是等到我們七年以後"},{"start":10924.065,"end":10936.089,"text":"或者八年以後 核三廠的乾式儲存廠興建完成才有它的可行性 可開始評估好不好 一定要把資訊清楚的向國人來說明好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 諸位請回 接下來我請中研院"},{"start":10945.269,"end":10971.356,"text":"時間看錯了抱歉副院長好這個很關切的是因為剛前面委員有提到說我們教文會一直很支持中研院所以沒有刪除預算確實委員會沒有刪除但很遺憾今年到院會的時候歐小林委員還是以國民黨黨團的名義提出了來中研院的預算刪減一共刪除了兩百萬是在法學的研究那他的這個刪除的理由是認為你們中研院的法學研究沒有顯著貢獻"},{"start":10973.476,"end":10989.227,"text":"沒有顯著貢獻而當時這個現在民眾黨的立委黃國昌委員他過去因為也待過你們中委院法律所所以我特別關心他的態度他也是表態支持就是說他也認為你們中委院法律法學研究是沒有顯著貢獻的"},{"start":10990.248,"end":11006.629,"text":"在我個人看來是有貢獻究竟顯不顯著它的主觀跟客觀的評量為何這個我們不得而知所以我是希望中研院未來你們要再多加跟委員來說明因為我相信絕對是有貢獻那你們要再去把它凸顯說我們貢獻對社會所在在哪邊好不好"},{"start":11009.332,"end":11032.8,"text":"好 謝謝最後主席可以給我一分半的時間因為我很關心AI基本法我自己也會有提案中研院在去年的時候有成立一個AI的風險研究小組你們提出了五點建議我想非常的重要其中你們認為台灣是需要及早來整備而且要有立法的因應也就是我們現在在研議的AI基本法"},{"start":11033.36,"end":11036.685,"text":"那麼去年應該是今年這個中研院也提出了AI在人文社會科學領域的應用的計劃我想請問這個計劃目前已經有核定了嗎那我們預計怎麼來進行是純粹研究還是有應用"},{"start":11049.82,"end":11063.919,"text":"這都有已經合訂了今年1月開始已經有20個計畫開始執行那如果委員想要知道詳細的狀況我們可以再提供後面的資料每一個所以今年已經有合訂了為什麼特別關注"},{"start":11064.259,"end":11078.268,"text":"我看其中有一個計畫它是預計用AI來偵測和解析詐騙犯罪的金流那它是由我們中研院社會學研究所提出跟刑事警察局、警大還有清華大學合作所以在我看來像我們就會對這個計畫未來的應用會非常的期待因為刑事警察局也參與其中那詐騙是台灣現在很重大的一個社會要解決的問題"},{"start":11089.395,"end":11103.847,"text":"所以我會希望說我們中委員未來的關於AI相關的研究如果可以跟我們這個應用可以來結合的話我想我們社會會非常期待我們也非常的支持好謝謝委員我們會努力好謝謝主席好謝謝吳佩奕委員好我們請官員請回座那我們接下來請鍾嘉斌委員質詢時間4分鐘"},{"start":11121.055,"end":11148.694,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進列席了政府軍事長官員會場工的夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們核能安全委員會陳主委跟剛剛是副主委跟主秘嗎 都請上來好了好 核安會齁 陳主委還有副主委 副主委跟主秘好 主秘 好剛剛那一位是組長嗎回答 核廢料問題的是 一併上來 好 OK 謝謝好 主委 來"},{"start":11150.586,"end":11177.989,"text":"這個我想我請組長來代為說明有需要你們三位幫他做補充好嗎好來請問組長核廢料怎麼處置高階核廢 低階核廢核廢料的處置低階的部分其實是不是經過這樣子那目前我們有低階儲存廠嗎有儲存廠有沒有最終儲置廠還沒有 還沒找到那高階目前放在水池冷卻區多數嘛對小部分已經到了"},{"start":11179.028,"end":11207.933,"text":"市內的乾除市外的乾除市外的乾除那最終處置還沒有嗎對好往下看那請問高階合肥最終處置廠目前有沒有選址條例高階經濟部有成立一個專案辦公室有沒有選址條例有沒有一個辦法來規範他們的選址方法有經濟部今年準備立這個選址條例是條例是立法對那麼我們合安會是不是認為這是必要的"},{"start":11208.9,"end":11217.102,"text":"選址表示是不是必要的就是經濟部認為這樣子他們才有經濟部他們要立馬你們認為在河岸的立場上是不是認為應該要有比較安全"},{"start":11220.059,"end":11230.409,"text":"主委您認為事務程式,我就不方便問主長了,您認為是不是要有一個選址條例?河岸比較有保障?是,好,謝謝。那我們來看一下,現階段進城的河一、河二、河三,現在河一、河二剛剛已經講過了,水池裡面都滿了,用過來的都放滿了,幾乎滿了,只有河山還有一點點。"},{"start":11242.04,"end":11252.664,"text":"中層的部分乾式儲存池目前只有一部分進去其他兩個廠都還沒有是不是最終處事廠都還沒有好往下看那請問第一階核料目前放在什麼地方核一廠裡面是不是也放了四萬多桶是"},{"start":11257.318,"end":11279.493,"text":"核二廠是不是也放了快六萬桶連蘭嶼很無辜的蘭嶼核一核二核三也放了快八萬桶超過八萬桶是不是這樣那我們屏東的核三廠裡面也放了一萬桶好那昨天有人有在野黨去強力推動了一個公投他們先前先管了核管法核管法他們讓本來"},{"start":11282.175,"end":11297.441,"text":"本來我們核管法裡面沒有延譯這個項目他們現在說要用延譯但是目前我們所聽到的世界上有延譯的有潛力但沒有重啟的潛力你所知道的世界上核電廠有重啟的潛力嗎有沒有人知道"},{"start":11301.547,"end":11324.116,"text":"主委副主委或秘書長有重啟的潛力嗎目前我知道還有三座有申請但還沒有批准有申請沒有批准是不是這樣子 沒有重啟的潛力好 那麼就算是有核管法有這樣的研議的可能那這些桶子還放在核電廠裡面是不是這樣子是可以永遠放在核電廠裡面嗎"},{"start":11325.815,"end":11346.732,"text":"他有一定期限期限大概多久到了沒有還沒還沒多久我們核准當時是40年40年也就是說核電廠開始營運後這些核廢桶放在廠子裡面只能40年那快到期了吧還有多久到期應該三廠部應該還沒大概還有幾年"},{"start":11348.719,"end":11375.178,"text":"呃...是...確確數據我...我...三年 五年呃...不只不只 十年因為...因為他是比較後來才...比較後來的 還有十年假設還有十年的時間我們要在十年之前完成最終處置場是不是這個程序是不是這樣子所以過去我們看到了從2006年開始到了2012年 2013年所有到當時馬總統時期的江怡化院長也都在尋子到現在都還沒有確定 往下看好 飛蛾教員是不是我們的永續目標 主委"},{"start":11377.009,"end":11396.088,"text":"是的那這個當中在2019年訂定的裡面有什麼持續推動低放核廢的最終處置的選址作業是不是這樣要盡速的把兩女的遷走完成了沒有還沒還沒嘛是不是要推動高放的最終處置設施的法制作業完成了沒有"},{"start":11398.056,"end":11418.891,"text":"還沒有嘛所以這樣的一個行政院的目標主委是不是包括核安會包括相關的行政院的機關都有責任有義務去盡速完成不管誰執政主委是不是這樣子是的下一頁好我就要結束了所以請核安會請你們就高放核廢的處置場的選址部分"},{"start":11419.984,"end":11441.738,"text":"我當然知道這是經濟部的權責但是呢 核安會基於民眾對於核安的了解請你們呢 來進行一個全台灣各縣市的民意調查了解民眾對於高階核放 放置在該縣市的支持度可以嗎做個民意調查 我不叫你做公民投票 做民意調查因為你們要協助民眾有這個認知"},{"start":11443.817,"end":11462.021,"text":"主委可以嗎報告委員那個經濟部其實他有一個社會溝通計畫我現在不是在質詢經濟部我在質詢核安會核安會主管核能包括民眾對核安的認知這個認知很重要請你們去調查民眾的認知主委可以嗎"},{"start":11464.068,"end":11487.109,"text":"我覺得民意調查是個非常專業的東西你們可以委託專業的公司去做啊我們河岸並沒有能力去做這方面的事情這不是河岸專業這不是河岸專業但是你們可以委託專業的公司去做但是河岸要包括什麼包括民眾的安全認知是不是這樣子這個你們委託一個專業公司去做調查就至少可以給台電參考吧"},{"start":11487.984,"end":11512.876,"text":"我覺得經濟部比較適合做這方面經濟部比較適合所以你們的答案就是經濟部那如果我請經濟部做你們也支持經濟部可以做決定是經濟部做決定如果經濟部做你們支持就對了這個有沒有有助於民眾的核安認知您覺得有沒有幫助報告委員有沒有幫助其實經濟部的這個溝通計畫裡面就有這樣的名字你覺得這樣的調查有沒有有助於民眾的安全認知"},{"start":11516.3,"end":11541.888,"text":"我現在不是問經濟部我現在問核安會核安會如果經濟部做這樣的調查你認為有沒有有助於民眾的安全認知要不要核安會要不要關心民眾對核安的關心的安全意識他可以更讓民眾更理解到核廢料的本質主委同意了吧這樣的一個調查是有助於民眾的安全認知的核安會支持嘛對雖然不是你們做好 謝謝"},{"start":11545.109,"end":11546.009,"text":"中研院 周副院長"},{"start":11567.452,"end":11590.795,"text":"好 副院长这一次我们中原院总共有五个书面报告还有一个专案报告在等一下的解读案当中那院长稍早我知道他有过来那也有把这个口头报告做了一个说明那副院长您自己本人有把所有的报告内容都看过了吗应该大致看过大致一百多页翻过一遍全部看过所以内容你都知道"},{"start":11592.719,"end":11609.626,"text":"當然背不下來可是內容知道大概知道我想是應該要比較詳細的了解會比較好那去年我們看到在審查中研院預算的時候尤其是有很多位的委員我們都有提出來就是中研院貴重儀器使用率低下的一個問題我相信副院長還記得"},{"start":11610.726,"end":11614.909,"text":"那中研院在解凍報告當中本席有看到111年跟112年的使用率低於20%以下的貴重儀器的佔比那比這個110年已經改善許多了我們看到數據就是111年是7.56%然後112年是7.75%相較於110年的14.41%有進步可是呢"},{"start":11634.784,"end":11637.326,"text":"我們這個報告內容其實卻沒有提到113年貴重儀器的使用狀況那第一個呢您是因為這個報告只有針對當時我們在審查預算的時候的問題提出來但是呢現狀卻沒有提是因為這樣的原因嗎"},{"start":11652.411,"end":11675.786,"text":"那個報告現狀因為這個就是說我們的報告看寫到哪一個部分因為這個地方是寫到哪一個部分就是同一件事情所以副院長我想因為可能您沒有想到說今天那個院長沒有辦法留下來但你就是應該要做好準備那我們看到這也是本席辦公室跟你們鄉家詢問才知道113年我們又來到了11.1%所以也就是說"},{"start":11680.289,"end":11708.033,"text":"我們沒有去統計113年的數字可是看起來這113年我們這貴重儀器使用的狀況是更不好了耶所以呢 什麼原因不放是因為這個數字難看嘛那實際上我們在113年使用率低於20%以下的貴重儀器的佔比喔升高到這麼多那我看起來我們也每年都有編列這個貴重儀器的養護經費嘛所以報告沒有提那我想在這裡請教一下這個副院長我們要怎麼樣改善這個具體的應用措施是什麼"},{"start":11708.793,"end":11727.655,"text":"謝謝委員的關心因為我們書面報告是在去年委員會審查完以後我們就開始準備的所以那個時候那時候就準備好了為什麼到現在才來提說要解凍沒有現在解凍是因為後來不是整個公佈然後我們還要經過一些"},{"start":11727.875,"end":11752.182,"text":"所以你的意思是說早就準備好所以來不及更新新的狀況是這樣嗎這個東西我可以跟委員解釋為什麼11%如果說我們11%其實是9台我們回去有仔細看過這裡面所謂的使用率天低因為這幾台裡頭大概有4、5台都是在一年內剛剛新購置的所以有很多調整那個這樣子啦副院長我覺得你應該要再給我們一個詳細的報告"},{"start":11755.623,"end":11759.504,"text":"妳要給我一個詳細的報告因為我沒有時間在這裡啊 跟妳詢問說那有幾台那到底是多久妳不能在這裡就是說打一個大概今天其實談到預算每一筆錢都非常的重要每一筆預算經費我們都要詳實我們支持中研院的這個我們支持中研院的預算但是呢 我覺得我們在報告當中也要詳細嘛這是彼此的權利義務啊 對不對"},{"start":11777.751,"end":11797.348,"text":"所以呢會後我希望能不能三天之內把這一題你剛剛所說的到底為什麼又會增加那增加的原因是什麼你說有幾台那到底是幾台你說有可能一年那到底是一年還是八個月還是兩年我們要知道找出原因來嘛好那在這個問題我相信一直存在著所以中研院也有想過要去怎麼去解決喔"},{"start":11798.089,"end":11810.659,"text":"所以我們也定有了一個全院性核心設施使用及管理要點那我們也希望能夠開放各界學術界研究單位跟產業人士可以來預約使用可是我看起來好像也是沒有增加所以副院長我希望把我現在本期的這個問題你一併三天之內的報告要來給我就是說我們也想去解決這個問題"},{"start":11823.308,"end":11846.275,"text":"可是看起來好像也不太好解決那到底是沒有必要去買這麼多貴重的儀器還是說的確這樣的貴重的儀器它就是有專門的使用而且是必要性的所以我們應該要存在那這一些你看看你都不講結果都是我們在看的時候我們去設想是不是可能有這個問題有那個問題但是不可以這樣所以三天之內把這個問題釐清楚報告送上來有沒有問題沒有問題我們會把報告給委員"},{"start":11848.976,"end":11863.757,"text":"好 謝謝 那您請回 那主席我們請一下那個河岸會的陳明珍主委好 請陳主委對不起 再請我們那個國園院的那個高院長好不好好 有請國園院高院長"},{"start":11865.854,"end":11883.513,"text":"謝謝張偉我想主委我們看到其實國研院在之前他有表示說2030年國際上可能會有小型的核子反應器就是SMR的相轉所以我看到核研院也提出四年期的SMR大規模的研究計畫透過這計畫希望能夠趕上國際的腳步"},{"start":11887.637,"end":11904.15,"text":"所以呢也提出這個計畫是要向國科會來爭取每年一億以上的這個經費來投入這個研究那我想先請教一下陳主委就是說你怎麼去看或者你怎麼樣去審核這個站在這個核安會的立場會不會支持這個計畫然後來協助幫忙爭取這個預算核安會是支持的"},{"start":11910.356,"end":11925.851,"text":"是支持的,所以你認為這個計畫如何?你怎麼看待這樣的一個計畫?這個計畫值得探討,因為在理論上SMR有它的優勢,不管核安方面,在某些"},{"start":11927.573,"end":11943.835,"text":"設計它有比較低的核廢料的產生好 所以簡單的來講就是您認為這樣的計畫是很值得我們要來做很值得來支持的 對不對好 那我想據本期了解國科會其實有持續補助各界對於SMR的一個研究"},{"start":11944.696,"end":11972.553,"text":"那近三年來我們看到補助河安會九件研究計畫總共是841萬2千那也補助了學界進行SMR相關的基礎研究計畫達到五件總共是896萬8千所以三年加起來總共補助了1738萬那但是我們看到國園院在這一年當中一年他就要去爭取過去三年總和的這個5.7倍"},{"start":11974.634,"end":11990.353,"text":"那所以主委剛剛是有說有支持啊當然我們也覺得說也是支持可是我們要來看喔那據主委您的瞭解喔國務院提出這樣是好的計畫可是呢我們的研究量呢有沒有辦法支持這個計畫的落實執行有辦法消化掉這麼多預算嗎可以的 這點請高院長來回答"},{"start":11996.035,"end":12012.487,"text":"我們提的就是明年開始希望能夠爭取國歌會能夠核准的四年的計畫大概4.8億這樣的一個計畫規模主要是我們希望能夠做一個很系統性的那個院長針對題目好不好我想我本席講得非常清楚"},{"start":12013.188,"end":12039.545,"text":"是告訴你說你現在一年要一億嘛對不對那可是我們看到其實國科會去不管是補助核安會補助其他的學術單位啊總共加起來三年也才補助一千七百多萬也就是說這些單位來申請他們能夠消化能夠去執行的就是一千多萬那你是什麼樣的量能或什麼樣的執行力你可以執行到一年一億你能不能重點講一下國營院現在有一千個員工其中有六百位可以參與"},{"start":12041.256,"end":12050.262,"text":"參與其中的600位所以我們這個一年一月的計畫會有600位國務院的員工共同來參與這個計畫其中核心的有100位員工會來執行這個計畫100位員工會來執行這個計畫好那所以呢我們對於執行這個計畫我們是非常有把握的是嗎"},{"start":12056.913,"end":12074.879,"text":"是 我們到時會提出一個方案好 非常有把握嘛人也夠 計畫也很好然後又有落實實行力 我覺得這樣很棒那國務院會近期有送計畫到國科會來申請預算主委 您知不知道國科會最後審核核准補助了多少經費現在還在審核之中還在審核之中 院長 多少"},{"start":12084.465,"end":12104.392,"text":"你指的是我們國歌會剛剛核定的一個718萬718萬左右這個是另外一個我們針對SMR的一個反應反正我們都是針對SMR嘛其中一個計畫對不對這個標的不一樣這是針對它的爐心的一個模擬那國園院現在總共提出了多少的計畫"},{"start":12105.572,"end":12111.553,"text":"按的這個預算申請今年度就是1543萬另外國科會這個是718萬總共大概2300萬一個700多萬一個1000多萬我們看起來剛剛我們都說支持這個計劃嘛然後這個大家對你們也有信心可是國研院喊出一年要申請到1億然後也有100個人"},{"start":12130.718,"end":12149.56,"text":"可以來執行但是你確實有提出這種700多萬1000多萬的研究計畫而且經過核准現在也不過就是一個718萬下來所以你喊得這麼大聲說我們有1億我們有100個人執行力都沒有問題但本席看到的就是我們現在這一年1億我們好像也沒有提出來"},{"start":12150.481,"end":12177.324,"text":"那所以這是一個口號嗎?還是只是一個展示一個決心卻沒有詳細可以執行的計畫內容?今年核電的已經總共一個剛剛報告過原子能計畫一千四百一千五百四十三萬加這個大概兩千三百萬那明年開始就是我們會提個一億的這個一億的計畫就是更聚焦除了這原來研究的還要擴充到三種到四種新型的反應器所以它的範圍也擴大要投入的人數"},{"start":12178.445,"end":12182.609,"text":"總之就是說我們現在今年是這樣啦反正就是大概兩千多萬啦然後我們後面還有中長期的計畫啦所以呢我覺得啦我們喊了漫天尬想這麼大的一個目標然後呢大家也都支持你看起來也很有把握可是內容計畫現在是空的所以呢我可不可以要求您啦那一樣我不敢講再三天啦一個禮拜之內可不可以把這個相關的計畫你送上來讓我們看看你到底啊一年啦齁這個這個一億"},{"start":12206.209,"end":12214.68,"text":"四年四億多你到底要做什麼那什麼期程要做什麼東西這可以做到嗎我們已經完成計畫書的兩百頁以上的送到我希望詳細的計畫就送上來包括剛剛我們所提到的為什麼現在的預算數跟我們的計畫差這麼多"},{"start":12224.352,"end":12238.438,"text":"那最後一分鐘我想就本席知道我們學界對於這個SMR的研究的歷史很久遠那包括清華大學從民國61年我們就開始開發車載型的小型反應爐那一直到不管是運轉後來實驗沒有再繼續到後來89年廚藝拆解我覺得其實"},{"start":12243.3,"end":12265.078,"text":"都會有點可惜因為花這麼多的時間人力下去所以呢基於國科會跟學界的相關研究基礎我想也建議啦也看國研院你是不是應該後續也要找學界或者是清華大學再重新來合作共同來推動我們SMR研究的一個進度這樣也可以避免各方過去研究成果的浪費那個院長覺得呢"},{"start":12265.959,"end":12291.793,"text":"我先回答 這部分呢 國研院跟清華大學是有合作項目的他們是會密切合作 鄉協議請高院長再補充一下是 剛剛提到明年開始的四年計畫第一年一千萬我們最少會跟清華大學合作五百到一千萬這種合作項目培育人才 做研究 已經跟他們的原科院還有幾位教授都已經有初步做一個溝通"},{"start":12293.677,"end":12309.005,"text":"好我想今天都是把這個重點來做一些提醒那我希望除了原有給我們的資料之外能夠針對今天本席質詢的地方不足的部分一個禮拜再把資訊送到我們辦公室來好嗎好的謝謝謝謝委員謝謝萬美玲委員主委請回"},{"start":12323.578,"end":12327.519,"text":"接下來請林錦昭委質詢林錦昭委主席林錦昭委主席"},{"start":12349.949,"end":12367.833,"text":"我要先講一下其實藍白兩黨這樣的大動大山真的是大大影響我們部會的運作那本席要強調預算本來就應該理性監督那不是毫無理由的就讓部會那麼的難堪那我們看看中研院好了我們的業務會被砍了30%"},{"start":12370.934,"end":12399.183,"text":"那可是中研院性質跟一般的行政機關不同所以我們的業務費不只是行政事務費而已我們還包含了更多的研究經費那另外研究人員的國內外參與費喔還有出國教育訓練費等等也被刪了15%還不得留用喔那所以造成很多研究人員參加學術會議要移動到南院辦活動等等都受到很大的限制那和安會負責全國的和安"},{"start":12400.323,"end":12413.828,"text":"核能安全 輻射安全 放射性廢棄物安全管制等業務那如果沒有而且你們還沒有地方單位可以支援你所以相關的經查檢查都需要核安會的業務費來支應那你業務費被動了30%"},{"start":12417.87,"end":12433.175,"text":"那各項的管制業務就存在很多的不確定性那還有我們輻射偵測中心的預算很重要那預算被凍結結果就會影響全台環境輻射的即時監測那環境輻射累積的這個劑量的監測"},{"start":12437.817,"end":12457.597,"text":"及其對應資源實驗室的正常運作 影響核安的管制我是認為在藍白外行干預專業 聯手亂下我國核能政策的指導起現在核能安全的管制更應嚴加重視"},{"start":12458.758,"end":12475.705,"text":"所以讓核物料的管制跟核電廠處理的安全管制這個預算必須要儘早解凍那才能有效的確保安全那另外本席之前在核安會議務報告備詢的時候有提到一個臨時提案"},{"start":12476.445,"end":12504.735,"text":"就是要求核安會對於核電拆除計畫書應該嚴加的審查同時要未雨綢繆我們要趕緊的來培訓專業的廚藝人員那並對核三停機廚藝工作儘早研議來因應所以請教主委就是說目前核電廚藝的準備工作是否有如期在進行那有遇到什麼樣的問題上代客服嗎"},{"start":12505.888,"end":12533.582,"text":"主委我們在按照現有的條件下我們盡量把它做好是當然業務費算是有影響的對我們也盡量按照既有的條件把它做好讓它安全無虞好所以現在就是正在進行初一的工作對"},{"start":12536.684,"end":12548.777,"text":"好 那另外齁 昨天民眾黨重啟這個河山公投的這個備蘭白衣這備蘭白衣人數的優勢來粗暴通過那本席是認為預期啊 我們要來談核電"},{"start":12555.383,"end":12580.694,"text":"不如我們好好地思考說台灣如何強化電網的韌性怎麼提高再生能源的配比去年預算審查的時候本席就認為像國園院等單位其實更應該積極地發展綠能的科技研究跟新能源的科技研究所以我想請教國園院的是有關綠能發配電"},{"start":12584.275,"end":12609.92,"text":"智慧管理與效能提升技術發展計畫本期看到你們這個報告那有寫說成功開發本土化配電網路管理平台有效管理雲林線配電潰線與再生能源並往發電並推廣到全台13個縣市的配電的潰線調度中心使用所以想要請教"},{"start":12611.445,"end":12628.455,"text":"高院長是說近年來我們是否再擴大這項計畫的應用範圍普及到全台灣是的我們這個已經從一個雲林線開始取代原來外商的配電系統"},{"start":12631.305,"end":12655.65,"text":"13個縣市已經改用我們的系統是獨立自主我們本院研發的同時這個系統也獲得2021年全球百大的一個R&D發明獎所以我們會持續來做這個配電網的研究還有電網韌性的一個分析才持續在這個綠能增加的狀況下能夠維持這個供電的穩定度協助台電公司來做這些好"},{"start":12656.852,"end":12682.618,"text":"好 那再請教中研院就是說關於國家淨零排放那永續發展的這個社會目標我們可不可以擴大來鼓勵我們研究人員投入相關的研究案來扶植國內的產業技術升級周副院長我們請那個環境中心陳玉高主任好 好 主任"},{"start":12684.626,"end":12695.458,"text":"我們在研發的過程中間確實對每一項我國需要的技術都做了未來的佈局所以陸陸續續都會開始"},{"start":12699.682,"end":12723.242,"text":"上次質詢的時候有向我們中研院請教說數位化研究資料開放的問題那主要是因為中研院各所目前有建置各自的平台那可是很難跨資料庫去檢索所以我今天還想再追問就是說我們上次數位文化中心有提到說現在的規劃建置這個Open Academy"},{"start":12727.766,"end":12746.792,"text":"希望透過一戰式的方式讓研究者可以對應各自的研究需求運用更多元的資料那本行是肯定這樣的路線可是我們通信也擔心說如果欠缺精緻化的分類處理那只是把研究資料通通不分青紅皂白塞到這裡來"},{"start":12747.992,"end":12774.26,"text":"可能還是會難以符合這個研究的需求所以本席想要請教是說那這個平台規劃要怎麼樣整合那分類各大主題類別的資料庫那之前本席詢問說這種跨資料庫解鎖功能的時候中醫院是回覆說各研究所各中心的資料庫的收入內容相當多元而且取得內容的授權跟開放條件的名單"},{"start":12776.261,"end":12802.898,"text":"開放條件各異所以要統合資料庫的整合檢索執行上好像會有困難可是我如果現在規劃這個Open Academy那如何來協調各機構的這種合作以及這個資料的整合那橫向的單位的合作就會是順利的嗎哪部分又會遇到困難我們請數位文化中心主任來回答"},{"start":12804.823,"end":12830.335,"text":"謝謝委員隨詢上次我們聽委員的意見之後我們馬上雙稳旗下一方面希望各個單位在進行他們的資料庫的檢索的時候按照上委員的標準希望能夠重新改善包括您提及的幾個比較重要的標標標譬如計時所也好台視所的一個規範我們將進行下來希望各所在既定的一個授權範圍合理之下我們能夠開放能夠讓更多的研究者或大眾能夠參考"},{"start":12831.275,"end":12853.935,"text":"您提到Open Academy的设计师和我们的Open Museum我们基本上是针对于个人研究者他们的需求他们自己在里面可以建立他们发展他们议题的设想然后经过议题设想收集这些材料这些材料他们可能还要到各个平台或各个数位的资料库里面去攫取然后再去收集然后在他们自己本身的资料库里面建立起来"},{"start":12854.475,"end":12873.949,"text":"資料化就可能從議題的發想資料的彙整到他們的論文的寫作寫作之後當然透過我們的Open Academy可以進一步跟這個學界能溝通然後用Outsourcing的方式使他的東西用更完美的呈現這是我們理想那當然是一個善的循環發展之後當然他們可以自己重新再規劃或開展他的議題"},{"start":12874.77,"end":12888.948,"text":"据您谈的这个一个平台我们会另外一部分来去进行希望各个单位各个处所在合理范围就在授权方面问题的情形之下能够进行能够会认起来这是我们目前朝中的努力的方向好OK"},{"start":12890.049,"end":12918.92,"text":"那中研院有關於中研院的解凍報告裡頭有提到說這個Open Academy預計年底會完成雛形那現在一年即將也就是過了一半所以目前當然想要詢問一下進度還有這個平台的主要是提供研究者使用嗎還是這個所謂的研究者指的是哪些人是有身份限制嗎"},{"start":12919.6,"end":12943.887,"text":"還是一般的學生也算在內還是人人都可以是研究者好 報告委員我是那個中研院資訊所所長廖鴻源是那過去2006做了七年的那個數位典藏國家研究計畫研發分享的總主持人那這個問題其實先生剛剛您問的問題說年底要不要開放這件事情是一個多媒體的問題exactly就跟現在的大型圓模型相關因為"},{"start":12945.107,"end":12963.385,"text":"多媒體它涵蓋的範圍是語言文字還有影像還有視訊還有聲音但當我們碰到大型語言模型的時候現在要讓這些研究者能夠大家都能夠用的時候或者是學生能用的時候因為每一種媒體它被表達出來的程度是不一樣的"},{"start":12964.66,"end":12986.997,"text":"語言它是唯一的因為它寫白紙黑字但是聲音的時候你在處理它的時候因為它有時序上的順序所以也比較相對容易但是影像就不一樣了那因為我們現在在處理大型語言模型的時候我們希望這些東西都能夠合起來讓這個資料庫能夠被擴充能夠大量的多元然後能夠更有用更有用處"},{"start":12987.757,"end":13004.237,"text":"所以在這個部分還是大家都在研究的階段但是我們眾院有團隊非常厲害的團隊在做這個事情在資訊所還有資創中心所以我們可以把這個東西在年底我們一直都有結果出來所以變成還在研究中"},{"start":13004.838,"end":13019.368,"text":"不只我們有一直研究然後也一直有成果出來只是說剛剛我講的多媒體它被表達的程度是不一樣的所以我們的進展在事業上算是也是不錯的非常好的這個跟委員報告一下好"},{"start":13021.277,"end":13046.796,"text":"那我想另外我們想知道說我們做資料的開放跟共享我們其實還是常常會遇到所謂的著作權的問題那如果根據著作權法30條著作財產權的存續的時間是著作人的生存期間以及他死亡後的50年也就是說超過這個年限的文物或文獻就屬於公共財任何人都可以自由運用"},{"start":13047.376,"end":13064.67,"text":"所以智慧財產局也有回覆過本席他說如果單純將古物進行掃描轉檔通常不具有個人創意的投入這個掃描圖檔原則上並非受到著作權法所保護的著作所以想要提醒中研究人士說無論現在或將來"},{"start":13066.531,"end":13080.517,"text":"這些年代久遠已經沒有著作權問題的文獻或古物是否都能掃描上網百分百公開讓國人以及所有有興趣的人可以研究來輕鬆運用我想這個也是給一個建議應該沒問題吧"},{"start":13085.639,"end":13088.783,"text":"在合法的範圍內會好那不好意思最後20秒我還想提一下說為在台南的這個南部院區去年有舉辦南部開放日那吸引很多爸爸媽媽帶著小孩一起來大家回饋都很好"},{"start":13102.196,"end":13126.208,"text":"那本席去年就有跟院長提過希望今年規模更大一點那主題更多元那可是我知道我們國內的旅費有被藍白刪了15%那而且又不得留用所以可能會影響到各所各中心想要到南部舉辦這些活動的意願跟規模所以我還是想替南部的鄉親請命希望中研院能繼續舉辦南院開放日那並且至少維持去年這樣的一個規模"},{"start":13131.411,"end":13153.407,"text":"不曉得有沒有機會對 我們南部院區今年開放一定會再辦那就是規模還是會維持去年量還是說還有機會更精彩如果有機會再擴大我們現在在探討各種可能性好將來會有缺定案的話再跟委員報告這件事情我們一定會做好 謝謝謝謝副院長 謝謝謝主席謝謝怡謹在外質詢 關雲君回座"},{"start":13167.915,"end":13194.057,"text":"好那我們現在先來處理解凍專案報告案兩案請議事委員宣讀討論事項一處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院主管預算公務預算解凍案一案中央研究院函為114年度中央政府總預算新增通過決議一列以針對114年度中央研究院經常支出業務費"},{"start":13196.465,"end":13219.782,"text":"七十二億六千一百七十五萬三千元 凍結百分之三十不含不包含月用人員酬金是中央研究院向立法院教育及文化委員會提出預算執行情形專案報告並經同意後 使得動之二 處理一一四年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算公務預算解凍案一案"},{"start":13220.583,"end":13234.885,"text":"核能安全委員會函為一四年度中央政府總預算決議減送稅出第二款第十二項新增決議二十二業務費預算凍結百分之三十專案報告請查詐案 宣讀完畢"},{"start":13236.462,"end":13253.443,"text":"好 兩個案子喔那第一個案子是有關於中研院那凍結了11億4963萬3千元那是不是委員有任何的意見要表達"},{"start":13254.838,"end":13282.474,"text":"好 克什恩委員好 我剛剛在質詢那上已經問過院長了那基本上面當然我們對於冬季院要解凍我們沒有太大的意見但是很顯然我剛剛在上面的時候目前中研院還是沒有給我一個比較完整的我舉例來說就像有關於儀器的這個層面因為已經多次被提出來做一個檢討那很顯然你們發函給各大專院院校的做希望能夠提高這個使用率這樣的一個"},{"start":13283.694,"end":13297.46,"text":"回應我個人覺得還是沒有辦法說服我們在這個儀器就是千萬元儀器上的使用然後你們提出來就是告訴我們就是說用這個論文引用的次數那這個次數院長又說"},{"start":13299.681,"end":13302.483,"text":"不应该用次数来决定这一切的价值"},{"start":13329.521,"end":13331.282,"text":"我請副縣長可以現場回應謝謝委員因為這的確是很重要的問題我們事後會比較詳細的書面因為那幾件儀器為什麼會是這樣的它的使用率會低都有一些原因的所以我們會跟委員"},{"start":13344.867,"end":13372.069,"text":"有仔細的在書面報告如果說委員再有意見我們還一定會讓委員能夠對 然後最主要的原因就是說你未來還是在這提高它的這個使用率的頻率上面到底要有一個什麼更精進的一個做法好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝柯思恩委員我是不是何安也要這個時候提還是你先解決中研院好 先解決中研院OK那中研院的凍結案還有沒有什麼意見嗎"},{"start":13374.566,"end":13401.932,"text":"你們是打算多久 給我這個報告一個禮拜之內可以一個禮拜 非常有誠意我們再來請范芸 還有郭鈺晴還有張雅琳只有兩個部分希望能夠後續追蹤一個就是關於中研院的院士行為準則因為你們給我的那個依據美國NAS的標準跟我看到的你們給我的英文資料有點內容不太一樣"},{"start":13402.512,"end":13416.003,"text":"那今天是可以解凍可是後續我等一下也會質詢那請再給我後續的追蹤報告那另外一個就是關於我關注的大型學術會議應考慮深藏者權益那謝謝你們有積極回應一個檢核表有初步做到那因為當時我們要求的時間比較趕一點那也希望你們後續給我你們怎麼執行的一個詳細的報告好嗎那其他我這樣都可以解凍沒問題"},{"start":13429.073,"end":13432.162,"text":"好 謝謝好 OK好 那我們再來請郭育晴委員"},{"start":13433.541,"end":13461.477,"text":"好 基本上我都可以解冻没有问题但是我在想那个业务费如果是遭到30%的一个限制其实也会冲击到目前我们这个相关的研究计划的一个推进跟品质所以在包含这个人才的延揽的部分是不是也可以就这个部分到时候再提供给我一个更详细的比方说被影响的一个层面那基本上其实我们是建议还是解冻好 谢谢"},{"start":13462.158,"end":13463.162,"text":"好 那我們再接下來請張雅玲委員"},{"start":13466.479,"end":13495.258,"text":"好那我是針對就是說在報告第二三頁就是那個一般學術研究及評議的第二節裡面有關於學術研究與人才培育項目的跨領域開發及研究設施之改善那我這邊的建議是說因為報告是沒有寫到足年改善中但是專題性研究型專題研究型儀器現在是寫說會由各實驗室制定目標那是不是可以說明一下今年要達成的目標到底是什麼這樣子"},{"start":13496.238,"end":13521.214,"text":"然後再來還有一樣就是在這一個幕裡面有一個叫做基本行政工作維持費裡面我有要求就是說在我們的科普講座啊中研講堂我們是要進一步的去擴展然後同時呢要確保這個推廣效果我們要有完整的意見回饋機制所以也請中研院在針對這一點上面做個說明是會如何的去做收集那其他的我都沒有意見可以同意解凍 謝謝"},{"start":13522.947,"end":13523.708,"text":"南部縣區量子晶片製程"},{"start":13538.007,"end":13552.614,"text":"還有那個量子電腦測試的實驗這個好像目前這個工程是延宕的那本來是今年初要完工看起來還沒那不曉得原因是什麼那有方式可以解決嗎那預計什麼時候會完工"},{"start":13556.116,"end":13575.293,"text":"那個延盪我們一直跟這個承包的廠商在多次每個禮拜都在開會當中那現在應該到最後收尾的階段了在下個月內應該可以完工我們那個很多機器都已經開始搬進去了那另外那個第三期量子科技實驗大樓咧"},{"start":13577.947,"end":13602.065,"text":"那個去年底動工的有如期的進度都符合安排現在在做連續幣那今年都會做地下開挖好好好謝謝好那如果沒有問題的話那我們第一案就解凍那逐一動之提報院會第二案河安會河安會這個案子是凍結了8133萬2千元也是業務費"},{"start":13607.39,"end":13608.15,"text":"還有你們跟民眾溝通跟這樣問題的場次"},{"start":13630.49,"end":13658.698,"text":"因為賴總統說嘛這個東西一定要有社會的共識嘛還有在關核廢料的處理那其實我某種程度上認為台電在這一方面從他的預算來說的話是越來越不積極了所以我覺得要解凍我覺得這個當然問題不大而且我們這個金額也不是太多但是呢我是不是也可以請你們提供你們目前的一個進度對有關中期這個暫時儲存設施的你們像目前的一些進度是不是可以給我們做一個"},{"start":13659.898,"end":13681.369,"text":"蘇滅的上面的一個說明可以嗎一個星期一個星期給我們交往委員會那有沒有其他委員 張雅琳委員想要問一下 因為中研院剛剛有一些希望她回答的那她是事後再跟我們討論嗎 還是再多做一些說明"},{"start":13682.589,"end":13702.203,"text":"沒有問題你可以再詢問一下剛剛我們講的專題性研究儀器要由實驗室制定的目標是不是可以再說明一下今年要達成的目標然後還有就是針對於我們要收集有關於中研講堂跟科普講座的一些意見回饋的方式是不是可以再做清楚的說明"},{"start":13703.396,"end":13720.557,"text":"好 中研院中研院秘書處處長曾國祥首先先就這個科普的部分大概簡單的兩點說明就是在中研獎堂的部分事實上我們在下個禮拜也就是5月28已經會在新北的金山高中舉行那下半年度也會再有一場"},{"start":13721.198,"end":13744.583,"text":"那麼至於科普的意見回歸呢我們特別會針對兒童科普的這一塊那除了會請一些相關的民調專家之外也會去參佐其他機關的這一個相關的方法譬如說台大兒童醫院他們在收集兒童的意見這方面就成效非常的卓著我們會跟他們有進一步的這個聯繫跟合作 以上 謝謝"},{"start":13745.063,"end":13761.215,"text":"我再補充一下因為其實最近兒少代表一直有來反映就是說我們整個部會整個不是只有中研院各部會在做兒少參與跟意見收集的時候都非常流於形式所以在這個部分的話我們是不是可以來找做兒童"},{"start":13762.176,"end":13786.751,"text":"意見相關參與的專家團體學者一起來針對這一件事情做收集因為問卷坦白說對於低齡的孩子並不是一個非常好非常友善的方式因為兒童醫院收集的主要還是以家長的角度這個部分是不是可以來參酌因為我不希望我在很多的兒童代表一直來反映這件事情謝謝好的非常謝謝委員的指教這部分我們一定會一併納入參酌"},{"start":13789.273,"end":13795.88,"text":"好 謝謝 那我們請吳立華委員我是不是也可以回應一下張委員那個針對中研"},{"start":13798.032,"end":13825.688,"text":"那個貴重儀器方面的問題有關個別實驗室有些我們貴重儀器是個別研究型的而不是服務全院或全國學院單位他們的目標會很不一樣那現在我可能沒辦法直接回覆委員那我想請委員讓我們回去蒐集這些資料再用書面來提出說明以上 謝謝好 那也請書面再來給教文委員會好 那我們接下來請吳麗華委員"},{"start":13828.016,"end":13844.143,"text":"好 謝謝主席關於中研院的部分因為最近原民會 科技部 中研院 國科會他們都有一個很重要的大計畫叫做原住民的知識系統那我是不太曉得說"},{"start":13845.203,"end":13870.007,"text":"中研院這邊他的一個刪減的影響是不是有去被影響到但是至少我看到在原住民族知識數位典藏的部分有非常多的部分都是寫說未更新啊所以我想這個部分還有關於他知識系統他到底是有沒有去"},{"start":13870.767,"end":13894.148,"text":"就它所分配到的任務有去配合原民會或者是教育部、文化部、國科會來執行那這個部分就看起來不得而知謝謝就說明一下就好好我可以說明一下這個中央醫院民主所的關於那個知識系統的建構那個主要"},{"start":13895.632,"end":13920.032,"text":"民族所的研究跟他們的典藏文物的收藏那他們在這個社會文化中心底下有一支計畫他們長期就把它做一個資料庫的建置據我所知 他們的研究是持續進行那這一個整建置的工作也是持續進行但是近期內為什麼沒有更新這個部分我可能要回去再了解更清楚一下"},{"start":13920.652,"end":13940.048,"text":"好 那就了解之後再跟五立法院報告因為剛剛我們中研院的解凍案其實已經過了就是說我們已經准予動之提報院會我們現在是在討論第二案就是核安會的解凍案那如果核安會大家都沒有問題的話那是不是就准予動之提報院會OK 好 謝謝各位"},{"start":13944.414,"end":13959.497,"text":"那我們接著繼續進行質詢我們請陳培宇委員陳培宇陳培宇委員質詢陳培宇委員不在喔我們請羅廷偉羅廷偉委員好 謝謝"},{"start":13974.4,"end":13978.444,"text":"我想跟你持續關心日本核廢水的第五次報告"},{"start":13993.51,"end":14004.197,"text":"那日本於112年8月底開始排放這個含有川的這個核廢水我對這個議題就之前有一直在關心一直在詢問那河岸會至今第五度"},{"start":14005.266,"end":14033.36,"text":"復日 對吧是去年3月核安會業務報告的時候那時候主委還沒到任拿著核安會第三次復日的專家觀察團整個報告中作為檢測單位的這個大雄分析研究中心沒有拿到ISO的認證的一個事情也提及我方應該要去要求大雄分析中心應該要拿到這個我們現階段所看到的這個ISO認證"},{"start":14034.761,"end":14056.472,"text":"那我們在觀看的時候有被日方拒絕那主委觀察團要去的時候代表政府就已經跟日方達成協議那日本才會同意前往那既然同意我們去日本我方當然是希望可以看到現場整個處理的一個情況如果無法了解整個現場的一個整體狀況那我們幹嘛去用視訊就可以了"},{"start":14057.692,"end":14075.514,"text":"所以我希望未來每一次復日的查驗都可以看到想看的了解想要了解的這才是復日訪查的意義那主委根據第五次復日觀察實地的一個觀察我方有提問因台灣持續關注擴散模式及發展"},{"start":14075.794,"end":14103.751,"text":"合作國際的合作請問未來是否可以透過合作備忘錄的簽訂讓雙方維持穩定的一個技術交流將海洋大氣之擴散的一個模擬持續的精進互助互利日方的回應是非常樂意但是若有希望進行短期人員交流可以透過相關的管道赴日以學術的交流名義然後或者是大學來做一個連續也是一個可以嘗試的一個管道"},{"start":14104.511,"end":14121.419,"text":"建議台灣可以提供相關的一個共同研究規劃雙方再來持續洽談那我們看到這些請問主委共同研究規劃提出了嗎內容大概是什麼報告委員這方面我請張署長他比較有詳細資料請他回答"},{"start":14124.451,"end":14152.731,"text":"那包括委員那在擴散模擬分析的這部分我們都一直持續跟日本來去做一個技術的交流那主要的一個對象是日本的主播大學的一個教授那在國內參與的團隊有氣象署的人員以及我們國園院的人員那在人員的一個交流裡頭今年就是也是五月初的時候那日本的一個專家有到我們這邊來去做整個的一個交流包括兩岸"},{"start":14154.612,"end":14158.613,"text":"兩邊日本跟我們的一個監測的一個數據以及我們的海洋的一些監測觀看的一些細節的一個數據都有來去做這個交流那在模式的發展上也有去做交流所以你共同研究規劃提出了嗎"},{"start":14171.777,"end":14175.398,"text":"這個共同研究是會以MOU的一個方式所以在這一次的討論裡頭也有去討論這個MOU的一個簽訂的一個細節這個一個研究是各帶研究的資源來去共同維持一個平衡那請問你大概多久可以簽到MOU"},{"start":14188.623,"end":14200.954,"text":"現在日本這邊專家是說他們帶他回去因為竹坡那邊大學那邊有他的一個行政程序那他們把行政程序給完成了那就會儘速的還回應我們我們這邊也會來持續的追蹤竹坡大概是5月13、14來台嘛對不對但是因為我們赴日的時候是5月8號到15號是去年"},{"start":14212.423,"end":14232.836,"text":"我們復任是去年所以已經一年過去了我們都很期待MOU可以趕快簽訂既然珠波已經來了也完成了一部分的一些資料帶回去走行政程序是不是能夠再加緊速度不敢說是催促他們但是基本上是積極的能夠來爭取這個部分可以做到嗎"},{"start":14233.96,"end":14256.818,"text":"我們後續我們就會依委員的指示來辦理好那第五次赴日的報告呢第31頁我們有看到福島場區內的生物試育的一個試驗顯示魚類、貝類、藻類體內的這一個穿濃度不會超過環境的濃度且已轉至一般海水後可迅速降低無累積的現象台灣也於2024年6月20日"},{"start":14259.62,"end":14278.658,"text":"由國原驗設計海水川以及生物川試驗場開啟本土海水生物 寒川生物的一個累積效應的一個試驗請問主委截至目前為止我們的本土生物試驗有沒有什麼進度有沒有初步的什麼成果可以跟我們分享一下嗎"},{"start":14281.48,"end":14300.007,"text":"這些資料可不可以運用在食安風險的評估上目前這個生物村我們是用養殖魚類的方式去做實驗那有沒有什麼進度目前就第一年事實上我們在一年半以前就已經開始建置這個養魚場"},{"start":14301.937,"end":14330.343,"text":"那個頓極的含川水的海水生物養殖場去年就開始做實驗那初步我們結果認為這個無積川濃度跟海水中川濃度的比例大概是0.9%這個結果跟日本東電公告的數據非常相近然後我們今年會繼續還有一年的時間那所以這一份報告裡面未來的成果可不可以運用在食安的風險評估"},{"start":14332.463,"end":14354.508,"text":"石鞍另外有日本食品輻射食品魚類的那個川的檢驗那跟這個計畫是分開的是分開的那這一份報告主要是要適用於後續要怎麼樣規劃就是海水川透過生物這個就是單純研究海水川它的生物是否遞檢是吧"},{"start":14357.909,"end":14378.746,"text":"這個我們去年有一個初步的報告給到貴院但我要講的就是說不管是海水內的生物川或者是我剛剛講的食安的問題我們都擔心嘛 打撈的到那個漁民打撈到這相關的漁類的時候可能會有相關的一些生物含川的問題所以還是不離我們現階段最關心的就是食品安全"},{"start":14379.646,"end":14407.888,"text":"所以當然你說他有另外一個計畫但我們也希望說透過每一個計畫能夠交叉的數據能夠再累積出更加安定的這些報告成果讓國人能夠安心食品安全這個部分你們是專業我們當然尊重但是也要反映出民眾現在的擔憂就是所謂的相關食安問題這個部分也希望你們能夠幫忙一起研究出更加穩定的一個相關成果讓我們國人能夠安心是的 好嗎"},{"start":14408.689,"end":14437.078,"text":"那報告指出福島核電廠設置有多重緊急的阻斷的一個方式遇到設備異常地震或停電可以手動自動來停止排放2024三月地震四月電力中斷均導致這個排放的暫停經檢查後才恢復作業好 主委我方代表對於日本這一個"},{"start":14437.738,"end":14452.206,"text":"多核種除去設備非常關心也多次詢問此設備請問現在我國目前針對福島排放異常事件的跨部會聯繫機制是否都在第一時間掌握異常並對外說明"},{"start":14455.466,"end":14477.502,"text":"報告委員 因為我們跟台日的交流是蠻頻繁的所以那邊如果有異常的話他們都會在第一時間通知我們另外我們也會根據IAEA的資料去掌握日本目前的排放狀況好 那所以剛剛說我們互動頻繁我們什麼時候啟動第六次赴日的實體訪查"},{"start":14479.827,"end":14494.669,"text":"八位委員那個第六次因為台日有簽署相關的這個協定所以我們每年一年在台灣一年在日本都會辦理會議那今年我們的會議是預計在十月會在台灣對在日本會辦理"},{"start":14495.931,"end":14524.879,"text":"好 好 謝謝那另外我想關心的就是說核關法三讀後有多少的執法要修那針對核關法修法後賴總統昨天也表示核安會必先訂定安全審查辦法台電在依照這個辦法去做自主的安全檢查評估有無重啟的一個安全條件重啟的期程與成本的效應那政府都會秉持著核安無虞核廢有解"},{"start":14525.299,"end":14528.02,"text":"我們現在已經開始著手進行這個法條的有沒有預估何時會完成"},{"start":14555.728,"end":14582.672,"text":"大概四個月左右四個月 因為其中兩個月是要公告有多抓了嗎還是因為按行政程序我們按照行政程序有兩個月是必須公告然後前面做跟後面做所以加起來大概四個月應該可以完成好 四個月那我們期待那另外針對SNR這個目前台灣對此的研究做得如何有沒有什麼可以分享的"},{"start":14585.692,"end":14610.585,"text":"包委員現階段除了申請中每年一億的計畫我們現在執行中的兩個計畫不好意思 您的聲音可以再大聲一點嗎對 我們現在執行中兩個計畫一個原子能系統的計畫我們是針對這個核電廠被動式安全的機制還有爐心動態 爐心熱水的嚴重事故來做一些SMR的特殊的分析那另外國科會補助的一個計畫710萬人士壓水室"},{"start":14613.486,"end":14636.183,"text":"SMR的一個爐心的模擬跟革正技術我們強調就是如果說要將來有可能這個設計需要在比較人口比較密集的時候他怎麼能夠有一個革正的技術的設計所以目前進行是主要是這兩個計畫這兩個計畫那目前台灣系統性培養合工人才的學術單位目前只有清華大學"},{"start":14637.143,"end":14658.496,"text":"那以及原子科的學院但主委上次在上個月的備詢也坦承過去20年合工人才的流失非常嚴重主委那人才培育要如何來做你有沒有具體的一個中長期培育計畫就很多方面一起做包括譬如說我們跟大學的合作研究國研院跟"},{"start":14659.577,"end":14676.874,"text":"大學的研究也是培養人才的一個管道也將吸引更多學生加入核能研究的行列包括國研院也增加他們的研究實力這部分我請國研院再補充一下"},{"start":14678.89,"end":14698.864,"text":"我們事實上就是SMR部分跟清華大學今年跟明年有多次的三個系主任院長都帶來跟我們做很密切的交流就是只要我們這個一億的計畫上來我們會相當的經費會補貼學校老師來培訓員工同時他們最近兩個"},{"start":14700.485,"end":14725.887,"text":"上個月也請我們互派師資我們會派師資有個核能學程系統的學程我們會有研究人員去當面協助他們授課培育新的員工那另外合隆合方面也跟成大 清大的物理系還有這個國安中心這其他學校也有人才的一些培訓那合工我們將來如果有更有"},{"start":14727.548,"end":14754.47,"text":"計畫的話希望是不是能夠因為畢竟念合工的人念博士學會的比較少智慧比較少啦但是我們要抓到未來的趨勢嘛這個主委都說了人才一直在流失那SNR有可能是未來的趨勢那如果到時候趨勢已經來了我們又沒準備好沒有相關的人才那基本上我們就已經輸國外的這相關的一些技術可能很多年"},{"start":14755.17,"end":14773.955,"text":"後續當大家在流行這個技術這個能源政策的時候我們有沒有人才去做相對應的一個把它銜接到這個政策那這個部分會更喪失第一銜機所以主委人才的培育很重要拜託你好不好這個一定務必要先行做"},{"start":14774.495,"end":14795.525,"text":"我們也希望爭取教育部公費留學有一個合共這個項目因為這個項目已經停了很多年了我們希望明年開始有恢復合共這個項目我們也會一起幫忙催促但是基本上你們在院會的時候自己內部的跨部會協調你們也要再加強一起加油好嗎謝謝"},{"start":14798.547,"end":14807.644,"text":"好 謝謝羅廷偉委員 謝謝好 我們主委跟所有的長官請回我們接下來請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":14819.851,"end":14829.596,"text":"主席要請何安慧以及中研院一起我們請何安慧陳初瑋中研院首副院長"},{"start":14836.159,"end":14864.08,"text":"兩位好我們邁向的非核家園國人都非常的擔心在整個供電穩定以及火力發電所帶來的一個空污的問題那隨著AI的發展呢日益的蓬勃那我國當然非常的希望能夠要有穩定而且乾淨的能源但台灣除了台灣內部的各種批評之外呢美國的批評也沒有停過著名的外交"},{"start":14865.341,"end":14887.509,"text":"這個外交家的雜誌呢在5月16號呢就在網站上刊出了一篇台灣為自己製造的致命弱點也就是淘汰核電那顯示非核的主張不只引起我們國人的一個反彈國際社會也非常的關心所以本席首先要請教我們核安會有沒有"},{"start":14888.189,"end":14894.053,"text":"制定安全審查辦法的時程表那麼政府到底會不會繼續使用核能請做說明"},{"start":14897.305,"end":14921.923,"text":"先回答政府要不要繼續使用核能這由能源的主管機關來決定就是經濟部以及台電根據他們的需求跟各種因素來決定要不要繼續使用核能核安會只是監管機關所以不會介入"},{"start":14924.144,"end":14930.148,"text":"那河岸會有沒有定定安全的審查辦法有沒有做這方面的討論"},{"start":14931.48,"end":14955.241,"text":"有啊 我們因安全審查就有我們的詳細辦法所以在核管法裡面就有規定 請高組長跟委員說明好 組長請做說明跟委員說明喔 那目前核安外就按照大院所通過的核管法修正的條文然後就要配合修訂執法 然後也要嚴禮相關的管制規定"},{"start":14955.982,"end":14963.346,"text":"那你們有沒有一個時程表非常感謝你們預估你的時程表大概會多久會出來這個執法修訂大概四個月四個月要會出來你們的這個審查辦法的時程表大概四個月之後四個月會出來會給各位報告是的好那這個四個月當中當然剛剛"},{"start":14981.175,"end":14984.376,"text":"這個韓匯所做的說明決定權當然在經濟部那所以呢本席要繼續來跟你討論我們叫核管法這個三讀修正過後呢那延長核電廠的運轉的實現所以卓魁也表示那過去台灣也曾經有核電廠研議的經驗但是能否完全的移轉到這個核電廠的重啟"},{"start":15010.703,"end":15016.528,"text":"仍舊需要河安會做專業技術的認定那認定之後後續才由經濟部或者台電來決定是否重啟那所以院長也表示到目前為止沒有辦法這麼精準的算出他的程序到底要多久那我也歡喜聽到河安會這邊大概在四個月內那麼所以在這樣的情況之下本席仍舊要請教河安會我們目前"},{"start":15039.247,"end":15042.87,"text":"因為政府一直在告訴我們核能的新技術它才開放的這個態度我們一直聽到的這個訊息是如此那本期要請教核能會對於核能新核能的技術我們的了解有多少你們的研究有沒有在做這個可行性的一個評估來請做說明"},{"start":15060.866,"end":15075.9,"text":"現在小型模組化SMR在國際間有很多地方在從事這方面的工作目前還沒有一個上轉的SMR出現"},{"start":15077.401,"end":15091.41,"text":"大概2030年左右才會有所以也就是新核能的技術我們還是密切的關注之我們真的非常的希望怎麼樣讓我們的國內的這個電可以穩定也跟世界的一個潮流技術等都能夠密切的來結合這一點是非常的重要所以我也期盼我們剛剛所回答的在這四個月內我們可以聽到"},{"start":15106.238,"end":15120.602,"text":"我們的這個新的審核機制到底是怎麼樣我們一起加油 謝謝好 謝謝楊瓊英委員大家請回我們接下來請范雲委員好 感謝周委喔你就先請我們那個河岸會主委好 有請沈主委"},{"start":15138.689,"end":15165.397,"text":"主委那個午安辛苦了我想我們非核家園不到五天就有政黨急推重啟核電廠的公投而且這個公投提案的主文如同我昨天所說的明明是重啟他故意寫成繼續運轉用一個灰色地帶讓大家感覺到他只是演繹那主委確定這應該是重啟不是演繹嗎沒錯吧"},{"start":15167.904,"end":15170.646,"text":"法規是寫在繼續運轉,事實上它的語譽上是要繼續運轉20年"},{"start":15187.183,"end":15206.682,"text":"但是概念上已經核三廠已經現在講的是核三廠已經停止了嘛所以原意是說是在繼續運轉的情況下事前五年為什麼就提出申請那他已經是在非核家園之後要繼續運轉概念上就是重啟嘛這樣有錯嗎"},{"start":15217.686,"end":15230.652,"text":"因為我之前也一直問何安慧你們有沒有在關注俄烏戰爭的經驗中何設是容易成為戰爭中的攻擊目標那根據我自己看到的還有你們給我的資料"},{"start":15231.272,"end":15248.917,"text":"那俄烏戰爭之後,那其實國際原子能總署IAEA它不止一次,它去年4月就發聲明說我們正危險地接近核事故因為俄羅斯不只是攻擊而且控制了歐洲最大的核電廠,在烏克蘭的扎波羅勒核電廠"},{"start":15253.959,"end":15275.578,"text":"國際原子能總署還特別提出說武裝衝突中核電廠要有所謂的核安必須要有七大支柱場外電源供給不中斷的供應鏈輻射監測系統跟緊急應變溝通完整設施安全跟安保系統操作人員要能夠如常履行職責"},{"start":15277.179,"end":15302.748,"text":"然後IAEA說烏克蘭的每一項支柱都受到損害這當然就是說跟俄羅斯不顧相關的公約有關那俄羅斯會這樣做我想中共有沒有比俄羅斯友善我是一個很大的問號而且俄羅斯跟烏克蘭在陸地上是接著的那中共跟我們中間有一個台灣海峽"},{"start":15304.73,"end":15313.845,"text":"請問主委根據這個烏克蘭的經驗核電廠若遭遇戰爭的時候有什麼國安風險主委可以簡單告訴我們嗎"},{"start":15319.082,"end":15341.563,"text":"我們判斷核電廠受直接攻擊的機率不高不高是多高?10%高叫做高還是不高?應該是很低,因為國際公約也...那俄羅斯為什麼會這樣子對待烏克蘭的核電廠?如果不高的話,俄羅斯這個是百分之多少?因為烏克蘭沒有..."},{"start":15343.488,"end":15352.518,"text":"烏克蘭的核安做得沒有台灣好嗎?你是要這樣講嗎?要我們信任台灣的核安會嗎?核安會有武裝部隊嗎?沒有嗎?就是剛剛的這七個國際原子能總署後來還去駐烏克蘭的那個場耶我們沒有辦法,我們在IAEA的地位裡面是什麼?"},{"start":15368.386,"end":15378.378,"text":"他說這七大1234567可以問一下福島市這七大中的哪一個出問題你們應該知道吧福島事件"},{"start":15379.646,"end":15387.072,"text":"跟委員報告輔導它是一個比較複雜不過就在這七個好了安全的七大支柱輔導是哪一個還是數個出問題它其實是比如說場外的電源失去對就是這個要有一個場外電源供給可以冷卻嘛那輔導事前有想過說有這種安全風險嗎它也會說不大甚至它說零對不對你說不大是多大"},{"start":15406.616,"end":15433.392,"text":"福島其實它在設計上它本來就有廠外電源對 設計上有了還是出問題嘛所以福島的核災就是告訴我們說你認為沒有問題的風險零的時候都可能有風險剛剛主委是說不大不大是說有對不對那我們現在在非核家園前核能佔我們的整體能源供應的百分之多少你們應該知道吧"},{"start":15436.998,"end":15445.485,"text":"現在是零嘛 之前是佔多少?517之前大概3%我們有必要為了這3%的能源去說全國放冒這麼大的風險嗎?對不對?這是一個理性的問題嘛那一旦就是說在戰爭時期如果跟烏克蘭一樣的話那請問河山廠那個輻射範圍會多少?主委可以告訴我們嗎?"},{"start":15465.7,"end":15475.692,"text":"就如果電力要真的出了問題像福島一樣那輻射的安全範圍內會影響多少是影響到哪一個城市可不可以告訴我們"},{"start":15477.503,"end":15496.743,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個戰爭最大的威脅它來自於說它會攻擊核能電廠之後會造成核能廠大範圍的火災它並不會直接就導致於說會有輻射外勢依照目前國內我們在這一塊的一個應變方式我昨天還追問你們"},{"start":15500.286,"end":15525.903,"text":"場外電源出問題最後會怎麼樣你們告訴我說是場外電源如果失去的話依照目前國內的核能電廠最後就是輻射外線我們是有各種的電源那福島是不是曾經也有各種電源就是這裡面一個場外電源因為你需要外面的電源才能夠冷卻嘛福島它是一部一部烏克蘭是不是有三個外部電源最後都被破壞它是多重的事故發生之後導致的"},{"start":15526.383,"end":15529.544,"text":"是 那我請教你啊你覺得中共跟俄羅斯比起來哪一個比較邪惡啊我想只要是戰爭我們都應該要避免是 那福島的事情就一個場外地緣供給都出問題了你可以告訴我說剛剛主委是說不大我不知道我們的林怡瑾招委聽了覺得不大"},{"start":15548.968,"end":15567.335,"text":"是多少?是我們能容忍的範圍內?它是因為整個海嘯造成的所以它不是一個單一的一個場外電源失去的所以IEA這七項都是一個核能電廠要維持安全必要的項目的確札波羅在戰爭的狀態下這每一項都接受挑戰"},{"start":15567.995,"end":15574.962,"text":"每一項都被挑戰了尤其是三個主要的外部電源讓它冷卻的都曾經三條都中斷了要不然你覺得IAEA有必要發聲明連我看到愛沙尼亞都發聲明譴責然後要求俄羅斯不能夠再不顧核安"},{"start":15588.909,"end":15607.333,"text":"因為這些國家都是在附近的那我們台灣呢 核安會都沒有給我們相關的訊息還要我跟你們問才有然後主委說不大我不知道不大是屬於多大那我其實就是一件事啦所謂的安全評估請把戰爭風險裡面的核安風險一起評估進去主委可以答應嗎我們就以烏克蘭俄烏戰爭作為就是說經驗值好不好"},{"start":15619.964,"end":15626.303,"text":"你不能想像中共會比俄羅斯友善嘛因為我們中間還有台灣海峽嘛"},{"start":15628.218,"end":15648.557,"text":"這方面我們就已經報告在裡面了因為我們已經要求分散式的多重水源與電源我知道你們現在都說就像福島曾經以為一切都沒問題啦你現在都有一關又一關最後還說可以人力水冷卻我都當面問過你們了我的意思是說人都有可能出問題嘛對不對"},{"start":15650.699,"end":15675.344,"text":"那就是你們剛剛就是避重就輕連輻射會到哪個城市都不願意告訴我們那我想這個部分對不只是屏東人高雄人連我們在場召委台南人都不能接受好不好就是因為後來你們問到連這個輻射都有可能到福建然後何安慧能跟我講說因為這樣子中共應該不會做這樣的事吧"},{"start":15676.084,"end":15691.016,"text":"你認為是這樣子嗎我沒有辦法接受這種不精確的答案報告給我們好不好 河安風險應該要包含最壞的狀況再來謝謝竹威請回 辛苦了我們請中研院副院長"},{"start":15694.827,"end":15718.116,"text":"委員好 副院長好 本來要問院長啦 但是因為院長很忙 所以就問副院長這個院士退場機制 我之前的預算就剛剛已經讓你們過關了 但是還是要追問因為就是民間 不是只有我 民間2019年你們的院士跟習近平站在一起 沒有保護香港城市大學的學生"},{"start":15719.676,"end":15745.742,"text":"2021年我們的院士協助中國政治打壓學生2021年我們的院士在美國涉及協助中國滲透被捕然後被調查所以我講院士一定要有不適任的在國外還有院士性騷性侵的所以我們目前已經有這種"},{"start":15746.922,"end":15766.012,"text":"所以問你們要怎麼處理然後呢因為你們這個我知道有一定的難度因為就是要涉及到院士所以我請你們一步一步來理解要針對五個民主國家怎麼去規範然後你們給我的報告法國 日本 義大利就兩三行就要打發我們這樣不對吧"},{"start":15767.694,"end":15782.879,"text":"那你們說你們是參考美國的NAS喔可是NAS那你們給我們的英文資料跟我看到的一樣可是你又沒有把它全文翻譯那以我跟我辦公室讀起來人家就是有一個評估委員會呀那當然就是說那你們宣稱分成"},{"start":15784.099,"end":15798.928,"text":"任職本院跟非任職本院你是說非任職本院譬如說這個在香港大學的要由那個機構去處理撤銷什麼那香港中大香港大學又不聽我們的他如果就聽習近平的那我們不就不能處理了"},{"start":15799.969,"end":15824.84,"text":"可不可以再次檢討,那我要求很簡單,30秒之內有外在威脅的民主國家,譬如芬蘭他們怎麼處理這樣子的一個最高榮譽的院,類似院士的制度我們可不可以找幾個讓我知道,讓我們教文委員知道一下,好不好因為我們的情況跟義大利法國畢竟不一樣嘛好,我們會再做一些好,你說要香港大學處理,他又不聽你的,他要處理嗎"},{"start":15826.865,"end":15845.298,"text":"好 對不對香港大學我們都參訪過很多老師都離開了到台灣到澳洲到英國去就是因為沒有學術言論自由了好不好好那就多久之內可以給我三個月好嗎三個月兩個月吧你們的研究能力這個不用三個月吧好兩個月好謝謝"},{"start":15849.329,"end":15876.548,"text":"好 謝謝范雲委員我們所有的官員請回剛剛范雲委員提到了兩個報告一個是有關於核安 國安的相關報告還有就是中研院要規範最高榮譽人員的制度如何規範的制度這是兩個月 其實這個報告除了送范雲委員 也一併送教育委員會好 謝謝"},{"start":15878.729,"end":15880.109,"text":"何欣淳 羅明才 鄭振乾 蘇清泉"},{"start":15896.094,"end":15913.084,"text":"蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在我們今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢另外有林沛翔委員提出書面質詢關於今天會議做如下決議報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢"},{"start":15914.605,"end":15932.151,"text":"或相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答覆的部分請相關機關盡速書面答覆114年度中央政府總預算有關中研院解凍案6案"},{"start":15933.331,"end":15955.969,"text":"核能安全委員會主管預算包括公務預算解凍案9案行政法人國家原子能科技研究院解凍案1案業已審查完均均予以動之提報院會報告院會本次議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"16692","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16692","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbc04fde1d52825d890a83d0d18514ced0a12e9ca99aa835c0b2b0cfa8fd0b05805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟、財政兩委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：繼續審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。\n二、本院國民黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例草案」案。\n三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「因應國際情勢衝擊強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案」案。\n四、本院委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。\n五、本院委員王美惠等17人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。\n六、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會韌性及促進全民消費特別條例草案」案。\n七、本院委員何欣純等19人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例草案」案。\n八、本院委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟產業及民生紓困特別條例草案」案。\n九、本院委員許宇甄等21人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費韌性特別條例草案」案。\n十、本院委員賴士葆等30人擬具「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案」案。\n（第六案至第十案業經各黨團簽署不復議同意書。））","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-21","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-21T08:31:25+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-21T11:48:00+08:00","duration":11795,"影片長度":"03:16:35","委員發言時間":"08:31:25 - 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教育部政務次長葉秉成行政院公共工程委員會副主任委員陳偉祥 公安部副部長薄宏輝海洋委員會主任委員管碧玲 內政部政務次長馬世元 衛生福利部政務次長呂健德行政院主計總署主計長陳淑芝等 主席謝家綺委員依奉 討論事項審查"},{"start":1862.04,"end":1888.326,"text":"行政院韓情審議因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全任性特別條例草案等5案台灣事項何必尋答委員賴氏寶及張啟凱說明提案要旨經濟部政務次長何進昌農業部部長陳俊濟財政部政務次長阮清華行政院主計總署主計長陳淑芝及海洋委員會主任委員管碧玲報告後委員林黛嬅等26人提出質詢軍油經濟部政務次長何進昌等及其答覆登記委員處"},{"start":1889.326,"end":1907.889,"text":"根據發現委員除不在場者外 其餘均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員陳玉珍 邱振軍 閻光恆 翁曉林 蘇星權 王美惠 徐以珍及牛許廷所提書面質詢略略記錄 刊登公報書面質詢懷疑及答覆部分 請相關單位一一周內以書面答覆並複製本會決議 詢答結束 令定期積極審查 散會 詢問完畢繼續進行討論事項請宣讀"},{"start":1919.52,"end":1934.538,"text":"考核事項繼續審查1行政行政審議因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全任性特別條例草案2本應國民黨黨團理據因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費任性特別條例草案3本應台灣民眾黨黨團理據因應國際情勢衝擊"},{"start":1937.962,"end":1954.134,"text":"強化經濟社會韌性特別條例查案4.本應委員蔡玉宇等18人擬拒因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例查案5.本應委員王美惠等17人擬拒因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別條例查案6.本應委員鄭天才等16人"},{"start":1956.596,"end":1985.411,"text":"拟据因应国际情势强化经济社会任性及促进全民消费特别条例查案7.本用文核心准等19人拟据因应国际情势强化经济社会及国土安全任性特别条例查案8.本用文欧小林等22人拟据因应国际情势强化经济产业及民生纾困特别条例查案9.本用文徐毅臻等21人拟据因应国际情势强化经济社会及民众消费任性特别条例查案10.本用文赖世宝等30人拟据"},{"start":1985.791,"end":2013.573,"text":"因應國際情勢強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案案 宣布完畢討論事項所議議案經濟委員會在5月14日第一次聯席會議已經詢達完畢之後院會又交付本委員會提案版本有五案我們並案審查目前我們提案委員因為都還沒有在場所以我們先進行提案宣讀"},{"start":2014.969,"end":2015.73,"text":"他有宣讀提案嗎?"},{"start":2044.488,"end":2055.405,"text":"请医事人员宣读特别条例名称及所有条文若有修正动以及附带决议请一并宣读宣读完毕后我们进行广泛的讨论"},{"start":2058.191,"end":2087.018,"text":"行政院提案法案名稱因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全任性特別條例草案國民黨黨團提案法案名稱因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民眾消費任性特別條例草案台灣民眾黨黨團提案法案名稱因應國際情勢衝擊強化經濟社會任性特別條例草案委員蔡玉等人提案法案名稱同行政院提案委員王美惠等人提案法案名稱同行政院提案"},{"start":2087.538,"end":2099.555,"text":"委員鄭天才等人提案法案名稱因應國際情勢強化經濟社會論性及促進全民消費特別條例草案委員何新淳等人提案法案名稱同行罪院提案"},{"start":2100.014,"end":2117.846,"text":"委員翁曉琳等人提案法案名稱因應國際情勢強化經濟產業及民生紓困特別條例草案委員徐宇珍等人提案法案名稱同國民黨黨團提案委員賴士寶等人提案法案名稱因應國際情勢強化經濟社會韌性特別條例草案"},{"start":2119.463,"end":2135.968,"text":"行政院提案第一條為因應國際情勢變化對我國經濟產業及國土防衛之影響以強化經濟社會及國土安全任性措施減輕人民負擔穩定民生物價國家經濟與就業市場改善投資環境促進產業升級轉型"},{"start":2138.068,"end":2161.612,"text":"及防护国家安全特制定本条例国民党党团提案第一条为因应国际情势变化对我国经济产业及民众消费韧性之影响以强化经济社会及民众消费韧性措施减轻人民负担稳定民生物价国家经济与就业市场改善投资环境促进产业升级转型及扩大内需特制定本条例"},{"start":2163.127,"end":2183.861,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第一條為因英國美國對等關稅政策及國際情勢衝擊之國家經濟重大變故並強化經濟及社會韌性特制定本條例委員蔡宇等人提案第一條同行任院提案委員王美惠等人提案第一條同行任院提案"},{"start":2184.381,"end":2207.441,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案第一條為因應國際情勢變化對我國經濟產業之影響以強化經濟社會韌性措施減輕人民負擔穩定民生物價國家經濟與就業市場改善投資環境促進產業升級轉型特制定本條例委員何新淳等人提案第一條同行任願提案委員翁曉琳等人提案第一條"},{"start":2208.161,"end":2235.699,"text":"除前二句為因應國際情勢變化對我國經濟產業及民生社會之影響以強化經濟產業及民生紓困措施其餘文字同國民黨黨團提案委員徐宇珍等人提案第一條同國民黨黨團提案委員賴世寶等人提案第一條除前二句為因應國際情勢變化對我國經濟產業及民生之影響以強化經濟社會韌性措施其餘同國民黨黨團提案"},{"start":2238.637,"end":2256.665,"text":"行政院提案第二條本條例之主管機關為經濟部依本條例編列預算之中央各部會負責強化經濟社會與國土安全任性措施之規劃預算編列及推動國民黨黨團提案第二條除第二具除第二項第二具為負責強化"},{"start":2259.917,"end":2283.269,"text":"經濟社會與民眾消費韌性措施之規劃預算編列及推動其餘同行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二條除第二項第二句為負責強化經濟社會韌性項目預算編列及推動其餘同行政院提案委員蔡宜芸等人提案第二條同行政院提案委員王美惠等人第二條文字同行政院提案委員"},{"start":2284.251,"end":2299.033,"text":"鄭天才等人提案第二條除第二項第二句為負責強化經濟社會韌性措施之規劃預算編列及推動其餘同行政院提案委員何新淳等人提案第二條同行政院提案委員翁曉琳等人提案第二條"},{"start":2299.754,"end":2320.625,"text":"除第二项第二具为负责强化经济产业及民生纾困之规划预算编列及推动其余同行政院提案第二条委员徐玉珍等人提案第二条同国民党党团提案委员赖世保等人提案第二条本条例之主管机关为国家发展委员会第二项同委员郑天才等提案"},{"start":2322.29,"end":2344.226,"text":"行政院提案第三條本條例鎖定強化經濟社會及國土安全任性措施之項目如下一提供企業金融支持二提升產業競爭力三協助企業開拓多元市場四支持勞工安定就業五強化農業金融支持提升產業競爭力及協助開拓多元市場"},{"start":2345.629,"end":2371.332,"text":"六 強化高等教育人才培育七 益助臺灣電力股份有限公司全民健康保險基金及勞工保險基金八 加強照顧弱勢族群及提供關懷服務九 強化國土防衛能量十 提升資通作業環境及設備國民黨黨團提案第三條本條例所定強化經濟社會及民眾消費任性措施之項目如下"},{"start":2372.574,"end":2393.965,"text":"第一款至第六款同行政院提案七一助全民健康保险基金及劳工保险基金第八款同行政院提案九减缓民生压力并达到振兴经济效益以发放现金新台币一万元方式强化民众消费韧性扩大内需台湾民众党党团提案第四条"},{"start":2395.356,"end":2422.698,"text":"本條例鎖定強化經濟社會任性之項目如下第一款後段增訂其經費不得低於新台幣250億元第二款後段增訂其經費不得低於新台幣250億元第三款後段增訂其經費不得低於新台幣200億元第四款後段增訂其經費不得低於新台幣350億元第五款後段增訂其經費不得低於新台幣300億元"},{"start":2423.999,"end":2442.681,"text":"六 普發現金其經費依第六條鎖定標準編列七 挹注全民健康保險基金其經費不得低於新台幣370億元挹注勞工保險基金其經費不得低於400億元第八款後段增訂其經費不得低於新台幣120億元"},{"start":2444.824,"end":2457.086,"text":"9.增加債務還本其經費不得低於新台幣250億元10.降低生活成本支出補助其經費不得低於新台幣180億元其餘文字同行政院提案"},{"start":2460.373,"end":2485.781,"text":"委員蔡雲等人提案第三條序文及第一款至第五款同行政院提案六加強推動農漁產品外銷媒合農業國際展並強化農業基礎設施照顧農漁民權益第七款同行政院提案第六款八挹注臺灣電力股份有限公司臺灣自來水股份有限公司全民健康保險基金及勞工保險基金"},{"start":2486.448,"end":2501.787,"text":"第九款至第十一款同行政院提案第八款至第十款十二 穩定國內公共工程品質進度十三 其他經行政院何可知強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性有關事項"},{"start":2502.848,"end":2522.949,"text":"委員王美惠等人提案第三條同行政院提案委員鄭天才等人提案第三條本條例鎖定強化經濟社會韌性措施之項目如下第一款至第四款同行政院提案五強化農業金融支持提升產業競爭力協助開拓多元市場及輔導輔助農民"},{"start":2525.421,"end":2543.654,"text":"第2款同行政院提案7.益助全民健康保险基金及劳工保险基金8.益助原住民组综合发展基金9.加强照顾低收入户中低收入户身心障碍者及原住民等弱势族群及提供关怀服务"},{"start":2544.88,"end":2570.527,"text":"第十款同國民黨黨團提案第九款委員核心存等人提案第三條除第二項推動產業及中小企業升級轉型提升產業競爭力第四款為支持及促進勞工安定就業強化職工職能培訓第八款為加強照顧弱勢族群提供支持及公懷服務第十款為"},{"start":2571.787,"end":2590.916,"text":"提升公司部門資通作業環境及設備其餘同行政院提案委員翁曉琳等人提案第三條本條例鎖定強化經濟產業及民生紓困措施之項目如下一提供企業農業及地方產業之金融支持二提升產業競爭力及強化"},{"start":2593.702,"end":2612.993,"text":"產業人才培育三協助產業多開拓多元市場第四款同行政院提案第五款及第六款同國民黨黨團提案第七款及第八款第七款第三句句末為強化民眾消費能力其餘同國民黨黨團提案第九款前向第一款至第四款"},{"start":2615.261,"end":2641.703,"text":"編業資預算總額不得低於新台幣1300億元委員徐宇珍等人提案第三條除第五款為強化農漁業金融支持提升產業競爭力及協助開拓多元市場其經費不得低於總經費6%其餘同國民黨黨團提案委員賴士寶等人提案第三條本條例鎖定強化經濟社會韌性措施之項目如下第一款至第八款同國民黨黨團提案"},{"start":2643.524,"end":2669.917,"text":"第九款辦理全民普發現金共享經濟成果行政院提案第四條前條各款項目之執行方式期間基準金額資格條件應檢附文件得委任委託或違反事項及其他相關事項之辦法由編列預算之中央各部會擬定報請行政院核定國民黨黨團提案第四條同行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":2671.448,"end":2694.556,"text":"第五條第一項及第二項前條各款項目之執行方式得委託或委辦事項期間基準金額資格條件應檢附文件及其他相關事項之辦法由編列預算之中央各部會擬定報請行政院核定前條第六款普發現金之發放相關業務得不適用政府採購政府採購法招標決標之規定"},{"start":2699.127,"end":2725.296,"text":"委員蔡宇等人提案第四條同行政院提案委員王美惠等人提案第四條同行政院提案委員鄭天才等人提案第四條同行政院提案委員何欣淳等人提案第四條同行政院提案委員翁曉琳等人提案第四條除墨具增加並送議法院備查其餘同行政院提案委員徐宇珍等人提案第四條同行政院提案委員賴世寶等人提案第四條同行政院提案"},{"start":2726.775,"end":2753.495,"text":"行政院提案第五條第三條第九款及第十款項目之採購得採限制性招標委由國內依法設立之法人機構或團體辦理不受政府採購法第十九條及第二十二條第一項規定之限制委員蔡宜宇等人提案第五條同行政院提案委員王美惠等人提案第五條同行政院提案委員何新淳等人提案第五條同行政院提案"},{"start":2754.255,"end":2777.571,"text":"行政院提案第6條本條例所需經費上限為新台幣4100億元得釋國際情勢變化分其編列預算編列特別預算其預算編制與執行不受預算法第23條第62條及第63條規定之限制前項所需經費來源得以已用以前年度稅計剩餘或"},{"start":2780.792,"end":2791.012,"text":"舉借債務之印 其每年度舉借債務之額度不受公共債務法第五條第七項規定之限制將政府總預算及特別預算"},{"start":2792.183,"end":2819.674,"text":"與本條例施行期間之舉債額度合計數不得超過該期間總預算及特別預算稅出總額度合計數之百分之十五本條例施行期間中政府所舉借至一年以上公共債務未償餘額預算數應依公共債務法第五條第一項規定辦理國民黨黨團提案第五條通行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":2821.823,"end":2849.905,"text":"提案第三條第一項後段文字為其預算編制與執行不受預算法第二三條規定之限制其餘文字同行政院提案第一項第二項後段文字為但執行期間尚有以前年度稅計剩餘可供已用時應優先支應不得舉借債務其餘文字同行政院提案第二項第三項同行政院提案第三項"},{"start":2851.431,"end":2879.867,"text":"委員蔡宜芸等人提案第6條同行政院提案委員王美惠等人提案第6條同行政院提案委員鄭天才等人提案第5條同行政院提案委員何欣淳等人提案第6條同行政院提案委員翁曉琳等人提案第5條同行政院提案委員徐玉珍等人提案第5條同行政院提案委員賴士寶等人提案第5條同行政院提案行政院提案第7條依本條例規定自政府"},{"start":2881.071,"end":2898.69,"text":"領取支補助及其他給予免納所得稅依本條例規定自政府領取支補助及其他給予不得作為抵銷扣押供單保或強制執行之標定國民黨黨團提案第6條同行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案"},{"start":2900.251,"end":2929.631,"text":"第五條第三項及第四項出手據增加現金補貼等文字其餘文字同行政院提案委員蔡宇等人提案第七條同行政院提案委員王美惠等人提案第七條同行政院提案委員鄭天才等人提案第六條同行政院提案委員何新淳等人提案第七條同行政院提案委員翁曉琳等人提案第六條同行政院提案委員徐宇珍等人提案第六條同行政院提案委員賴世寶等人提案第六條同行政院提案"},{"start":2931.438,"end":2952.434,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團提案第六條於本條例公佈施行前符合下列各款資格之一者得以本條例領取新臺幣六千元一於國內現有戶籍之國民二各級政府機關應公派駐國外與國內現無戶籍之人員及其具有我國國籍之眷屬三取得"},{"start":2953.018,"end":2976.819,"text":"台灣地區居留許可之五 戶籍國民四 大陸地區人民為國內現有戶籍國民之配偶且取得台灣地區一清居留長期居留許可五 外國人為國內現有戶籍國民之配偶且取得居留許可六 香港或澳門居民為台灣地區人民之配偶"},{"start":2977.935,"end":2992.944,"text":"前取得居留許可 七 前三款大陸地區人民 外國人 香港或澳門居民 離婚或配偶死亡其居留許可未廢止八 第三款至前款之人取得定居許可 尚未涉戶籍"},{"start":2993.82,"end":2994.561,"text":"行政院提案第八條"},{"start":3017.728,"end":3041.187,"text":"一本條例編列預算之中央各部會應專案列考及考核第三條各款鎖定項目之執行國民黨黨團提案第七條同行政院提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案第七條本條例編列預算之中央各部會應將預算執行情形之工作計畫實施成果概述計畫提要及分支計畫概況表"},{"start":3043.228,"end":3066.786,"text":"並說明實施進度及預算執行數額按計送立法院備查委員蔡宇等人提案第8條同行政院提案委員王美惠等人提案第8條同行政院提案委員鄭天才等人提案第7條同行政院提案委員何新淳等人提案第8條同行政院提案委員翁曉琳等人提案第7條第一項前段同行政院提案後段增加並"},{"start":3069.189,"end":3091.498,"text":"應將預算執行情形及工作計畫成果概述按計送立法院備查本條例施行滿一年後行政院院長每年須向立法院就相關預算執行提出專案報告委員徐玉珍等人提案第七條同行政院提案委員賴士寶等人提案第七條同行政院提案"},{"start":3093.021,"end":3118.833,"text":"行政院提案第九條本條例及其特別預算施行期間自中華民國114年3月12日起至116年12月31日止本條例及其特別條例執行施行期間屆滿得經立法院同意延長之國民黨黨團提案第八條除第一項後段增訂第三條第一項第九款應於114年10月31日前執行完畢"},{"start":3122.054,"end":3150.576,"text":"其余同行政院提案台湾民众党党团提案第八条本条例自公布日施行施行至中华民国一百十六年六月三十日止本条例施行期间届满德经立法院同意延长之委员蔡玉等人提案第九条同行政院提案委员王美惠等人提案第九条同行政院提案委员郑天才等人提案第八条同行政院提案委员何新纯等人提案第九条同行政院提案"},{"start":3151.178,"end":3179.478,"text":"委員翁曉琳等人提案 第8條除第1項第3句據所為第3條第1項第7款其餘文字同行政院提案委員徐宇貞等人提案 第8條同國民黨黨團提案 委員耐氏寶等人提案 第8條同行政院提案修正動議"},{"start":3181.977,"end":3206.797,"text":"委員鍾嘉斌等所提修正動議第一條為因應國際情勢變化對我國經濟產業及國土防衛之影響以強化經濟社會國土安全及國民健康與文化發展韌性措施減輕人民負擔穩定民生物價國家經濟與就業市場改善投資環境促進產業升級轉型及防護國家安全特制定本條例"},{"start":3210.44,"end":3229.037,"text":"第二條本條例則主管機關委經濟部依本條例編列預算之中央各部會負責強化經濟社會國土安全及國民健康與文化發展任性措施之規劃預算編列及推動第三條增訂第十一項促進全體國民健康第十二"},{"start":3229.798,"end":3254.13,"text":"第11款促進全民國民健康第12款提升藝文產業發展第13款其他經行政院何可之強化經濟社會及國土安全任性有關事項其餘同行政院提案委員賴瑞榮等所提修正動議第3條第5款強化"},{"start":3261,"end":3288.172,"text":"農業金融支持提升產業競爭力協助開拓多元市場及糧食安全第十一款強化關鍵供應鏈韌性十二款提升能源自主與備援能力其餘同行政院提案第四條增訂第二項主管機關得彙整統一相關執行準則必要時得另訂執法以施行本條例"},{"start":3289.793,"end":3290.42,"text":"第五條增訂"},{"start":3293.12,"end":3320.441,"text":"第五條第三條第九款及第十款項目之採購得採限制性招標委由國內依法設立之法人機構或團體辦理不受政府採購法第十九條及第二十二條第一項規定之限制但因於不洩露商業機密範圍內揭露採購標的類型及得標對象前項規定於我國以締結之條約或寫定另有規定者依其規定辦理"},{"start":3321.522,"end":3335.408,"text":"第六條本條例所需經費上限為新台幣4500億元其餘同行政院提案宣讀完畢好現在請翁曉琳委員說明提案要旨"},{"start":3346.038,"end":3357.932,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位媒體各位官員大家好為了因應美國的關稅政策的變革本席在此提出因應國際情勢強化經濟產業及民生紓困特別條例草案"},{"start":3361.636,"end":3366.783,"text":"那麼這部草案的核心精神就是針對當前國際情勢有效運用特別預算來確保產業競爭力與民生穩定那本草案規劃特別預算總額為4100億與其他類似的法案相當"},{"start":3378.337,"end":3399.394,"text":"但是为了要让人民的纳税钱能够确实花在刀口上让这笔特别的预算真正发挥效益照顾到关键产业与基层的民生本席在条文当中明确规定至少要有1300亿是必须用于产业辅助和劳工就业的相关预算"},{"start":3400.054,"end":3421.298,"text":"同时在通膨的压力之下呢以普发现金一万元的方式直接减轻民众的负担同时也能够促进市场经济活络本草案的另外一个重要的特色就是强化国会的监督机制相较于其他的版本本法案的具体规定规范各项职"},{"start":3422.058,"end":3440.678,"text":"各个项目的执行方式期间基准与金额的办法必须除了行政院核定之外还必须要送立法院备查那么其次预算执行的过程当中也必须要按计向立法院提出执行情形与成果概述到立法院备查"},{"start":3441.158,"end":3444.82,"text":"但最後則是要要求行政院長於特別條例實行滿一年之後每年必須要向立法院提出專案報告來確保人民能夠確實掌握預算運用的情形避免特別預算淪為黑箱這樣的國會監督的規定其實也不是創新因為回顧我們過去"},{"start":3461.869,"end":3490.926,"text":"几部特别条例无论是前瞻基础建设特别条例或者是因应新冠肺炎的这个相关的特别条例都有要求在施行满一定期间之后呢要向立法院提出预算执行的顺便报告甚至六个月后要向行政院由行政院长要向立法院提出报告那么这些规定都在在显示尽管特别预算有其特殊性急迫性但是仍然不应该要超脱法治国的"},{"start":3491.206,"end":3491.426,"text":"那么我们期待"},{"start":3512.685,"end":3540.108,"text":"朝野攜手并进共同面对此次的经济难关为产业为民甚为台湾人民来共同谋福利请大家一起支持本题案谢谢大家好谢谢现在进行审查因应国际情势强化经济社会及国土安全任性特别条例草案进行广泛讨论那在场委员需不需要进行广泛讨论如果不需进行广泛讨论我们就进入主条讨论"},{"start":3540.748,"end":3568.115,"text":"好不好 逐條協商好 現在進行協商從特別條例名稱及第一條條文開始請問有沒有人要表達這個從行政院到每個政黨還有個人這個提案看起來很分歧而且這個大概不會有結果啦 我覺得這個就是保留好 邱議員委員"},{"start":3570.732,"end":3570.916,"text":"主席"},{"start":3572.456,"end":3598.043,"text":"主席我想請教一下這個今天因為有併了幾位委員的提案進來所以我們上禮拜巡打的時候的那個提案數多了很多那我想請教一下這個幾個併的提案個人想要詢問一下議事人員這個有點怪怪的比如說鄭天才委員的案子是要促進全民消費特別條例當然前面還有講因應國際情勢及強化經濟社會韌性"},{"start":3601.884,"end":3625.863,"text":"及促進全民消費特別條例那翁小玲委員剛剛的提案是因應國際情勢強化經濟產業及民生紓困特別條例草案我請教一下議事人員這兩個提案跟我們原來的提案一直應該是不太一樣的為什麼會是併案處理"},{"start":3627.827,"end":3656.499,"text":"你不能因為前面他就寫因應國際情勢然後你就把它併在一起處理啊兩個的提案意旨是不一樣的一個是強調紓困一個是強調全民消費那跟原來我們談的原來的提案包括行政院版的或者是不管是國民黨黨團的版民眾黨的黨團版都是有一些社會任性國土安全任性的特別條例喔所以我想請教一下議事人員為什麼這兩個"},{"start":3658.939,"end":3666.164,"text":"他的提案内容主旨跟我们原来的提案原来要讨论的案由是不太一样的为什么会是并案处理好我现在请竹敏回答"},{"start":3667.362,"end":3693.635,"text":"包括我們聯席會 情況是這樣因為我們之前審過五個法案 尋答完畢的這是院會交付的我們之前尋答過的那五個法案其實名稱也都不一樣所以我們把它列為說這個名稱一開始我們就由我們聯席會委員來進行討論審查看有沒有取得共識大概是這個情況 院會交付下來我們就排案子 以上"},{"start":3694.813,"end":3721.659,"text":"好现在请欧晓琳委员欧晓琳委员完在呃蔡英文委员还有郑天才委员啊好我想呃针对本席这次所提出来的这个草案的名称的部分我跟大家做个解释其实我想这次之所以会有这个特别预算条例草案最主要的还是希望能够呃强化经济产业然后辅助经济产业那么所以在呃这个整个法案"},{"start":3722.659,"end":3744.247,"text":"里面除了法案的名称可能各个委员率有不同之外其余的条文的内容其实是大同小异那么就像我讲的我的法案基本上是多了立法院的国会监督机制那么同时也要求在一定的金额是要专注在补助产业"},{"start":3746.316,"end":3752.601,"text":"發展還有這個強化這個產業的還有強化勞工就業啊等等這些補助所以呢呃這個部分的話其實在看到前面幾個案子也都是法案名稱不一樣更何況啊本席也認為說這次我們既然是主要是因應美國的高關稅以強化呃產業為主那麼這時候又放這個國土安全任性其實是沒有必要了啊那麼呃在這邊我認為說其實大家的法案的呃"},{"start":3775.417,"end":3799.472,"text":"內容是大同小異 當然是應該要並案審查才對我想針對這個法案的名稱國土安全韌性是非常的重要因為我們這次對美國的整個的貿易談判事實上美國對於我們台灣展現我們自我防衛的決心這個就是美國事實上重視的一點"},{"start":3800.012,"end":3824.697,"text":"所以這個特別條例在於國土安全韌性這當然是一個很必要的一個文字那至於說你要把它再加上一些民眾消費或者是紓困這樣的一個字眼事實上它都可以涵蓋在強化經濟強化社會韌性的這樣的一個文字裡面那只是說它又特別要把它抓出來再強調的話所以基於我覺得整個文字上那匡列"},{"start":3826.437,"end":3847.866,"text":"比較不會有一些就是感覺是重複的狀況而且國土安全韌性事實上真的是在我們跟美國談判然後美國所重視的那以及我們台灣要怎麼利用這個特別預算來強化我們的基礎產業那所以這個國土安全韌性非常重要好 鄭天才委員一開始詢問的時候"},{"start":3855.509,"end":3876.59,"text":"就三個法案一個行政院版的提案國民黨團的提案台灣民眾黨團的提案事實上三個法律名稱也都不一樣法案名稱也都不一樣而事實上是要看這個裡面的實質的內容相近的是不是"},{"start":3877.615,"end":3891.899,"text":"大部分相近如果是大部分相近當然都可以一併審查所以這個部分本席的提案就是跟這個國民黨團的提案類似只是用詞不同而已以上 謝謝好 謝謝請張祺凱委員"},{"start":3898.706,"end":3914.077,"text":"在名稱部分民眾黨的看法剛好跟剛才蔡議員提的剛好是兩個極端是完全不一樣的我們認為這一次一開始要提這個特別預算是因為川普的高關稅高關稅是要從行政院一開始提"},{"start":3916.238,"end":3940.559,"text":"到後來的930億就是因為因應高關稅所以在經濟部分這個一定是要列進來的名稱裡面經濟是一定的那第二個我們為什麼寫了社會呢這跟民生有絕對的關係這段時間高通膨還有這個高關稅這個衝擊對人民生活有很大的這個挑戰所以我們提出說要普發現金每個人6000塊錢我看國民黨提的是1萬塊這一塊是大家比較有共識的"},{"start":3941.32,"end":3958.537,"text":"然後另外我們提出來要去撥補在全民健保跟勞工保險這一邊這本來是行政業已經有的我們就大幅的增加了包括在全民健保提高到370億在勞工保險基金部分提高到400億還有加強照顧弱勢團體提供弱勢關懷"},{"start":3963.562,"end":3977.771,"text":"所以這社會這部分應該也是大家比較有共識沒有問題的可是我覺得民眾一定最有餘力而且任何應該拿掉的就是剛才蔡議員講的國土安全任性他去看一下這裡面的這個內容都是年度預算裡面的嘛"},{"start":3979.189,"end":4004.607,"text":"他提到那個什麼強化國土防衛能量提升直通作業環境跟這些設備大家翻一翻這幾年的預算書每個項目裡面都有啊怎麼大農以大灌水灌到這裡面來你這樣嚴重違反了預算法也違反了財政紀律啊你要強化這一塊請你回到年度預算這邊嘛明年我們就好好來審請把它移出去所以我在民生方面我認為國土安全任性這六個字要拿掉 謝謝"},{"start":4007.162,"end":4029.902,"text":"好現在就法案名稱是不是請主管機關郭部長做統一回覆本條例是因為因應整體國際情勢"},{"start":4031.713,"end":4053.548,"text":"對我國的經濟、社會以及國土安全造成的衝擊與影響所以要強化經濟、社會及國土安全韌性均有其必要以及急迫性普發現金雖然有短暫效益但是並不是解決問題的最好方法反而有可能分散政府的支持力度"},{"start":4055.082,"end":4083.617,"text":"現階段應該要集中國家的資源全力支持最需要的產業與國人敬請各位委員支持新政院版本謝謝好那在場委員還有沒有其他意見因為目前舊法案的名稱其實各黨團以及各委員的版本都有其意那是不是就保留好不好好那我們現在開始進行第一條"},{"start":4093.833,"end":4108.04,"text":"請問委員有沒有意見沒有意見就按照按照哪一個版本對啊 每個版本不一樣你們都說有沒有意見"},{"start":4113.686,"end":4139.296,"text":"我們請張啟開委員有智慧的主席剛提了 對 不曉得按照哪一個版本像這個第一條碰到的狀況跟剛剛的民生講的一樣像這是非常重要的一個條文就牽扯到他的整體的一個定位你看我們剛講了一輪結果郭思維 郭部長上去了他就認為說這個普發現金是比較短暫性的這個效益那可是在野黨都認為要嘛所以國民黨也提了案子國民黨是一萬塊"},{"start":4140.416,"end":4167.681,"text":"民眾黨是普發每個人六千塊錢而且理由我們都已經講了那當然名稱方面如果有這樣的爭議到了這第一條一定會有這樣的爭議可是我們很清楚的表達我記得目前在野黨的立場我記得應該是民眾黨跟國民黨吧可能也是多數台灣民眾的就是說你一開始要因應高關稅好那就好好因應所以包括國民黨跟民眾黨在野都把行政院提的這個版本我們還適度的增加例如說支持勞工安"},{"start":4168.921,"end":4191.387,"text":"勞工的安定就業 本來行政頁板只有150億我們把臺灣民眾黨大幅提高到350億就是為了照顧我們勞工 這段時間確實有衝擊然後這個預助全民健保跟勞保基金這部分我們都有去增強了甚至我們會降低大家生活的成本要支出TPAS這一塊 我們都編了180億"},{"start":4193.14,"end":4217.221,"text":"就是在定位上面一方面就是只要是行政院一開始提然後全民也有共識說我們要去印訂高關稅的不只我們支持行政院版我們還把這個金額都已經大幅的提高了然後另外是跟民生比較有關係的包括普發現金把它加進去有些新的項目然後在勞健保這一塊我們把這個金額還大幅的提升我覺得這個是大家已經有共識的可是有兩個移除我們認為有問題的"},{"start":4218.482,"end":4240.923,"text":"一個就是行政院版裡面提到的撥補台電一千億因為這個去年已經被立法院刪掉了啊而且過去三次的撥補三千億以後越撥越大康沒有效益嘛所以我們還是堅持要把它刪掉那另外一個就是剛剛跟蔡議員提的這個行政院版提到國土安全韌性計畫這個裡面我剛剛有特別跟他強調這一千五百億每個項目你在查以前預算是多少所以我們說兩個移除"},{"start":4242.953,"end":4262.932,"text":"一個就是台電的一千億的這個預算一個就是國土這個安全韌性的一千五百億減內那這樣定位就非常清楚了就是在高關稅經濟跟社會韌性這個這塊我們好好來因應甚至是我們支持行政院的時候全民是有共識的我們把這個金額把它提高來當我們的產業幫我們的這個人民所以"},{"start":4265.214,"end":4286.569,"text":"我是建議說這一條如果沒有共識當然是要往還是要保留啦不過我自己把定位要訂清楚啦好不好因為到後來表決我覺得到後來過的大概也是或是我剛剛講的那個方向那兩個移除台電的一千億大概也過不了了然後國土這個強化什麼這個韌性國土這個安全韌性這個本來回到年度預算可以比較完整而且比較符合財政的這個紀律謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請蔡議員好"},{"start":4290.857,"end":4311.389,"text":"我還是要強調這一次的特別預算因應的是國際情勢強化它並不是因應國際情勢並不是只有自我限縮說只有因應美國的關稅所以光是我們的法案名稱就已經講清楚整個國際情勢的一些變化台灣應該要做哪一些萬全的準備"},{"start":4312.029,"end":4329.821,"text":"所以剛剛講的經濟層面重要社會層面也是要照顧但是國家的安全國土安全韌性這一塊也是非常重要的一環那我覺得如果照這樣的討論直接要把國土安全這四個字直接把它劃掉的話"},{"start":4330.461,"end":4352.948,"text":"那是不是也應該要讓國防部以及我們海委會都要讓他們先表達一下意見因為這個第一條就會涉及到他們接下來整個法案對於他們的影響以及他們的一個編列的一個重要的一些重要性在哪邊這個我想要讓他們說明一下好那請賴瑞榮委員"},{"start":4359.72,"end":4374.854,"text":"我想這個案子我有提出我的相關的修正動議我的意見是這樣 我的看法上是跟行政院上 我是支持行政院版本其實在"},{"start":4376.015,"end":4389.28,"text":"現在所面對的其實是國際的一些局勢包括我們應該更強化我們國家的整體競爭力那我認為有這樣的一個特別預算是希望強化我們國家的競爭力特別是我們國家的一些韌性那當然產業面"},{"start":4390.74,"end":4406.526,"text":"因為遇到了這個川普的關稅的一些挑戰 那當然我們給予給予支持啦 在產業跟這個部分給予支持 當然將來如果還有問題需要增加 我們可以再來增加那另外也趁這個機會應該給予更多照顧民生 不管是人才啦 甚至於"},{"start":4407.286,"end":4430.722,"text":"台電過去因為俄羅戰爭所導致的一些虧損我們若不要漲電價我們應該支持台電給予撥補我一貫的政策跟態度都是如此如果漲了電價反倒會讓我們的民生的物價波動甚至於整個影響到整體我認為這個最後法損失會遠大於我們投入的金額另外包括健保包括勞保這個我都支持"},{"start":4431.863,"end":4450.63,"text":"但是我看到另外還有就是國土的安全韌性的部分1500億這個也是在給予我們國家更強的一個競爭力跟更強的韌性這也相當重要那但是因為上次在執行的時候也提到其實我們所需要其實不只是1500億像之前海巡的部分"},{"start":4451.59,"end":4479.094,"text":"你光那個最近的偷渡的狀況越來越多甚至我們的整個海巡人員非常的辛勞那現在中共的灰色的這個策略相當的多的時候我認為應該給予國軍跟海巡的弟兄更多的支持上次伯父跟館主會講到其實大家聽了都很有感我認為其實應該給予我們的第一線的這些國軍兄弟海巡兄弟們給予他們更多支持跟更多的力量來防堵來守護我們的安全所以我是"},{"start":4479.554,"end":4492.346,"text":"建議直接應該給予因為即使300億的海巡這個部分恐怕還是不夠那他需要700億未來在光財化法被拿掉了3000多億之後恐怕未來國家的財源不見得能夠支應這400那我認為趁現在"},{"start":4494.488,"end":4515.718,"text":"我們國家的財源上還可以的時候我是建議直接就給到1900億讓他們一次海巡的兄弟們跟國軍兄弟們有錢可以來做這些防堵的工作防堵自地的入侵的工作那另外其實我並不是那麼贊同所謂的現金的這些方案因為當資源有限下的時候怎麼樣去做最有效的運用"},{"start":4516.118,"end":4530.682,"text":"那從現在看來的話反倒是剛提到這幾個方案對國家長遠的競爭力是更重要的所以我支持行政院版本同時間我在強化國土安全任性我把它修改為1900億也希望各位委員能夠支持以上說明現在請邱議員委員"},{"start":4538.716,"end":4561.911,"text":"謝謝主席我想這個底下的條文的討論會跟所有的會跟法案名稱會是息息相關所以剛剛法案名稱我們把它保留了下面的討論就會變得更加的困難到底國土安全重不重要法案名稱沒有放進去國土安全的時候我們後面討論的國土安全通通都會被"},{"start":4562.998,"end":4587.427,"text":"都會被擱置那我想請教這個在野黨的委員到底國土安全比較重要還是你普發現金讓人民去把錢花掉是比較重要當您看到台灣現在的國際局勢國際局勢不是只有經濟局勢是在整個戰略地位上面在國土安全的地位上面"},{"start":4588.854,"end":4607.101,"text":"我很難想像台灣的立法委員竟然會認為國土安全是不重要的當您看到我們的海巡弟兄站在第一線去處理偷渡或者是處理中國的漁船步步進逼的時候我很難相信你們竟然可以講得出口國土安全是不重要的"},{"start":4610.064,"end":4635.626,"text":"當國防的軍官兄弟們飛上天空去攔阻這些軍機巡航的時候我很難相信你們會認為國土安全是不重要的我們到美國去跟美國的商務部或者是跟美國的國防部見面會談的時候其實美方一直很期待台灣你能不能拿出你自己保衛自己國家安全的決心出來"},{"start":4636.989,"end":4664.345,"text":"所以當一個國土安全這麼重要的議題放在這裡的時候在野黨的委員竟然認為普發現金六千或者是一萬比國土安全更加的重要昨天你們在立法院提出的那些公投案什麼河山要繼續再運轉你說要在安全的前提之下要在主管機關合可的前提之下那不就是國土安全嗎"},{"start":4666.018,"end":4680.812,"text":"那不就是國家安全嗎那為什麼今天的立場跟昨天又不一樣了呢那台電能不能安全的運轉能不能穩定的供電能不能維持我們的經濟體所需的供電需求"},{"start":4682.382,"end":4704.573,"text":"這不就是一個國家很重要的正常的這個所謂的防衛韌性跟國家的經濟發展的韌性嗎所以我覺得剛剛的法案名稱沒有定你到後面的討論就會變得非常的詭異非常的奇怪好現在請陳婷菲委員陳婷菲委員完是徐宇珍再來是翁曉琳再來是邱志偉陳昌明張啟凱"},{"start":4707.431,"end":4721.983,"text":"謝謝主席我想我們今天這個特別條例我們進行到第一條第一條的部分大家對於因應國際情勢這四個字都沒有意見"},{"start":4723.184,"end":4742.391,"text":"是里面的内容大家有不同的想法可是国际情势这四个字它不可能只有针对单一经济或是只有产业别它必须要符合到整个国家安全跟国土的发展"},{"start":4743.451,"end":4772.711,"text":"這是一體性的因為國際情勢不是可以單一雖然我們說現在是因為美國關稅的問題可是美國關稅是一個引點這個引點你看現在整個中國跟美國之間的關係還有全世界彼此之間的互動已經產生了化學變化在這個化學變化到底下一個階段會不會影響到整個國土的安全"},{"start":4773.491,"end":4786.595,"text":"大家不知道如果我們今天擔任立法委員我們只有頭痛一頭腳痛一腳我相信人民沒有辦法給我們超級的一個信賴所以我們認為說在"},{"start":4788.916,"end":4809.245,"text":"因應國際情勢這麼清楚的一個標的那麼我們就應該一次把台灣未來面對國際的經濟情勢產業情勢發展還有國土防衛的部分都要一併納入這是缺一不可的所以我覺得說在這一條應該"},{"start":4811.462,"end":4838.955,"text":"不會有任何的歧義因為大家非常清楚的就是為了因應國際情勢我們不能一刀這邊也切那邊也切如果我們真的為了國家好為了台灣的發展好我們就應該擺除所有的政治立場我們應該一次談好怎麼是對台灣比較穩固的"},{"start":4840.509,"end":4861.099,"text":"那我必須說我們台南有很多的隱形產業光這一段時間我們跟很多的中小企業去對談的時候其實他們更擔心的是當他們跟國際在拼市場的時候我們台灣沒有辦法給他"},{"start":4862.299,"end":4883.258,"text":"持足的後盾包括產業的轉型包括經濟的發展甚至是在整個台電電的部分的一個問題所以如果他們要對於關稅要對於整個電價有可能因為我們沒有撥補這不是"},{"start":4886.89,"end":4900.909,"text":"這個所謂的燃料的問題不是台灣燃料 而是全世界國際燃料的問題當時候俄烏戰爭所產生的一個大缺口所以這個大缺口現在已經繼承事實"},{"start":4902.151,"end":4918.832,"text":"如果我們面對這個計程式而不去面對很有可能最後還會轉嫁在產業別當中這個對他們是不公平的所以我們還是希望給我們的產業有十足的力量向外去打拚"},{"start":4919.853,"end":4939.015,"text":"可是也要給他們十足的後盾所以不能這一塊切那一塊切而是大家在這個特別條例好好去探討怎麼樣是對我們的經濟發展是好的產業發展是好的我們國家安全的發展是好的這才是最重要所以我認為"},{"start":4939.856,"end":4964.686,"text":"我們在這個第一條的一個基本架構我們就是要依照行政院的提案來通過這才能完全的面面俱到而不是因為自己本身的立場需求而一刀切東切西而讓人民會有所擔憂這絕對不是我們來訂定特別條例我們最終的目標"},{"start":4965.708,"end":4981.197,"text":"好謝謝我們現在請徐理貞委員謝謝主席我想當時我們會訂這個特別條例主要就是要因應這個美國關稅的這個佔的一個相當的最主要的一個關係所以我想提出這個因應國際情勢跟強化經濟社會"},{"start":4984.439,"end":5001.806,"text":"的部分應該是相對沒有問題那當然對於撥補台電1000億實在冤枉我們都已經否決了所以我覺得不宜放入我們這樣子的一個特別條例當中那當然對於國土安全韌性1500億其實我們覺得非常的重要"},{"start":5002.486,"end":5016.557,"text":"所以說呢應該是要放在我們的這個追加預算當中或是最快的方式如果覺得金額不夠就是再追加追加預算所以我覺得應該是另外再來處理而不是放在這個有關強化經濟以及我們的因應國際情勢的這個特別條例裡面"},{"start":5022.842,"end":5052.082,"text":"那另外呢當然就是我們為什麼國民黨團包括我自己的版本都希望能夠這個發放新台幣一萬元給每一位這個我們的國人就是希望能夠強化民眾消費的韌性擴大內需也減輕民生的壓力也可以促進經濟的一個振興那這個由各項的民調也有發覺我們有65%以上的民眾其實都希望能夠普發現金讓他們能夠度過這一次的一個經濟的一個困境以上謝謝"},{"start":5053.603,"end":5078.923,"text":"好谢谢我们现在请翁晓琳委员这次之所以有这个特别条例草案的提出最重要的原因当然就是为了要因应美国可能对台湾实施的高关税政策以及种种的一些贸易上面的这个政策那会造成我们台湾的产业产业"},{"start":5079.966,"end":5096.969,"text":"这个环境还有经济发展的环境的困难所以才提出这个特别条例草案可是行政院很明显的他就是要透过这样的一个条例草案去偷渡一些东西譬如说国土安全的问题"},{"start":5097.689,"end":5112.166,"text":"國土安全當然重要我要再強調國土安全任性當然重要可是這個是應該要在一般的預算裡面就去編列不要忘記我們是剛才之前才剛通過114年的政府總預算裡"},{"start":5116.55,"end":5140.561,"text":"那麼在這個114年政府總預算案都還沒有執行都還沒有執行到比較一半或是還沒有結束才剛開始而已那現在就說錢不夠如果說真的在今年度的執行之後發現有不足的地方還可以透過追加預算或者是說可以在明年度再來編列這沒有那麼著急"},{"start":5143.032,"end":5165.823,"text":"我要强调的就是说我们既然是为了要回应美国的高关税政策那么就该把重心放在能够真的去补助去强化我们的产业环境我们的经济发展以及这个对于劳工可能会面临的失业的问题我们要给予他们好好的帮助而不是在这个"},{"start":5166.463,"end":5190.004,"text":"这个特别条约草案里面又长一些又暗藏一些根本本来不应该要编列进来的一些预算像是波普台电或者是说又去这个给什么海巡署啦给这个其他的一些会受到关税冲击无关的一些相关机关的这个经费那么我认为说在"},{"start":5191.045,"end":5218.198,"text":"行政院把以及民進黨委員所提出來的這個法案裡面特別強調國土安全任性的部分其實應該要在其他的地方那麼再去提這個經費的編列而不是在這個特別條例草案裡面一併納入好我們先一次發言完在第二輪發言的委員再發言那是不是要給那個行政單位先講完好不好"},{"start":5227.624,"end":5235.127,"text":"國會在討論法案 第一個 格局要大 眼光要長遠 思慮要清楚"},{"start":5236.388,"end":5260.867,"text":"因為所立的每一個法 所通過的每一個預算都關係到所有台灣人民的未來的發展 未來的生存這個條例為什麼那麼重要為什麼我說 格局要大 眼光要長遠 視力要清楚川普關稅所引起的所謂經濟安全運好經濟成長動能的吃完運好它造成是連鎖反應"},{"start":5263.471,"end":5288.122,"text":"國土安全跟國家安全不見得是完全百分之百等同的概念不要把它狹隘化韌性韌性就是一個你平常就要不斷去培養而不是說年度預算年度預算有每個年度預算的需求韌性你要改善你的體質改善你的結構改善你的這個抗壓力改善你的這個耐受性"},{"start":5289.17,"end":5302.419,"text":"所以經濟成長也好或者是國土安全的任性也好或者是社會穩定社會穩定包括對產業界的穩定對勞工的穩定我想這環環相扣你沒有辦法把它切割"},{"start":5304.099,"end":5332.311,"text":"所以法案很清楚這是為了整體為了因應整個美國關稅政策的改變所引起的國家所面對的困難這困難絕對是不合適的困難絕對不是單一項不是經濟挑戰有包括社會的穩定就業的安全包括國土的內心也好各位美國有國土安全部國土安全部是對內還對外我倒想請教一下溫委員"},{"start":5335.242,"end":5359.899,"text":"是對內還是對外當然他可以不回答 也許他不知道對內對內是什麼要維持社會的穩定國土安全部最重要是他要維持整個社會的穩定你要穩定要有他的緊急應變的能力"},{"start":5361.352,"end":5373.218,"text":"緊急應變就是說任性的意思你緊急應變能力越強代表你內心越強這個跟每年度的什麼國防內政部海巡署預算並沒有直接關聯性"},{"start":5374.606,"end":5403.304,"text":"這是你平時對於所謂經濟動盪經濟這個不穩定或者是社會不穩定所造成的相關的國土安全的問題他就必須要有相關的作為相關的這個預算來作為因應把內心提高當然國家那個國土安全的係數要提高國土安全係數提高經濟相關就會更穩定社會也更為穩定跟安全"},{"start":5404.244,"end":5418.75,"text":"所以各位不會想要愛化也不會把它做什麼切割國會議員啊水平要往上提啊國會議員水平是沒有天花板的要更好不能往下降啊要每天自我生長 要每天自我生長每天這個醒過來就要思考國家大政這個我認為啊這個條例"},{"start":5434.033,"end":5452.859,"text":"是花了很多時間才提出這個這也是國人也希望趕快通過通過這條例才能編預算來審查你那條例沒有通過你預算沒有辦法進行事實審查重要是預算要趕快審查通過才能作為相關的因應作為嘛"},{"start":5453.939,"end":5474.11,"text":"那你卡在一個法案名稱法案名稱我個人認為也許其他人不這麼認為我個人認為沒有任何問題啊你把國土安全跟國防安全把它相提並論我覺得並不是等同的概念它是靠國土安全是靠經濟安全是靠社會穩定我宇宙心常跟我講在這邊真的是要為國家"},{"start":5483.644,"end":5503.398,"text":"為人民來著想而不是政黨之爭一夕之爭我覺得盡數讓這個條例穩健的通過讓預算趕快通過才能就定位才能因應相關的這個挑戰跟衝擊好 謝謝現在請陳昌明委員請問"},{"start":5513.055,"end":5517,"text":"今天我們主要是討論應用國際情勢強化經濟社會及國體安全任性特別條例的草案"},{"start":5529.775,"end":5556.578,"text":"在這個發言以前,我永遠要強調這次的罷免案是從預算引起的預算有三檢預算、檢列預算、有凍結預算但是我發覺我們這個政府的團隊都在講巧話尤其在電視台那些名聲講得跟完全立法院的Police是他把凍結跟三檢預算來講得天花亂墜是真的"},{"start":5557.671,"end":5576.345,"text":"所以造成朝野彼此的一個誤會那今天在這邊講如果依照剛剛委員所講的話就是這個條案你要通過不然你是賣台不然你就是親中那愛台灣哪裡一定要這樣的分化所以我今天容然強調這一點"},{"start":5578.08,"end":5589.272,"text":"今天我們只要是討論這個經濟社會安全及國土安全認証我們這個預算要如何去應用那上次在"},{"start":5591.031,"end":5616.822,"text":"廣泛的討論然後我們海洋委員會我們的管制委你不要刪我預算我說不是刪你預算我是檢討我們的預算要適合使用我會幫忙你但是國防部我就不一定幫忙我才不可以這樣在講話立法委員檢討預算你要適合使用是我們的職責跟責任那今天看到所有預算的一個編列裡面我們的經濟部長"},{"start":5618.482,"end":5622.892,"text":"你要了解到在支持產業跟安定就業930億佔了22.68%"},{"start":5629.015,"end":5657.336,"text":"國土安全的韌性1500億這1500億裡面還要限制性的招標我不反對但是要有一個原則不然會讓人家污穢眼神照顧民生1670億那裡面有包含台電的一圈一站那剛剛大家在講國土的韌性很重要我們的海形史被人家這樣突破了後面插了一個國旗"},{"start":5658.798,"end":5684.761,"text":"這是臺灣的悲哀啊臺灣是AI的國家臺灣是電腦網路發達的國家你們以前怎麼沒有想到去偵測要怎樣去抓呢現在談這個問題我以為我們國軍是非常強大武力非常的強執意對抗中日每一年買了那麼多的武器下來我們可以安心在臺灣安其樂意結果一個突破你們才發現"},{"start":5685.862,"end":5702.217,"text":"我們以前的國防我們的預算我們是怎麼運用大家不自我檢討都在罵對方這個是彼此大家在一個較勁彼此要想盡一個辦法如何保護台灣國土真相"},{"start":5703.338,"end":5719.848,"text":"將近十年了民進黨執政買了多少的國防預算今天被突破我講起來真的很丟臉連小小台灣海岸線我們就沒有辦法鞏固好那你以前到底做了什麼事情要自己檢討不要去罵對方"},{"start":5722.179,"end":5739.148,"text":"那最近看到很多的事情發覺國際的情勢國際的軍事的武力其實變化的太快你們有沒有想到巴基斯坦把印度打下來大家都想不到這是科技化近視化的一種教訓"},{"start":5740.228,"end":5765.248,"text":"那我現在不曉得台灣買了那麼多武器我們就像印度一樣我們的武力非常堅強我們防空非常好一打我也不曉得結果是怎麼樣其實國土安全保衛台灣人人有責並不是你們這樣講這個不夠你就是窮工我們是要探討這個應用債那我今天也要提出一個非常"},{"start":5766.598,"end":5790.686,"text":"今天我們總統就職一周年兩岸的關係他不談以前這個是執著我們的敵對的境外勢力我們要偷中日北我們要偷中日美你們都講出來了今天也不談這個問題那到底這些問題現在怎麼會變成這樣的一個變化我不曉得在哪裡"},{"start":5791.886,"end":5817.834,"text":"那今年是為了應應關稅對臺灣產業未來的影響跟發展我們要應用這筆錢在著重我們臺灣的產業因為有經濟有收入才會讓民眾非常的安心大家過得很快樂那你看到昨天總統講說我們要指示前進美國的國家隊"},{"start":5819.335,"end":5825.735,"text":"我們要成立AI的此前至今我們要成立AI台灣的國家隊"},{"start":5827.182,"end":5845.239,"text":"我們的總院長說我們AI有十大的基礎建設你聽好 建軍我們天天在防備我們買的武器到現在有多少我覺得要安全任性 不然把它移來這個地方來實施國家AI 實現基建AI國家發展隊我們來實施美國AI"},{"start":5852.645,"end":5860.713,"text":"前進的一個隊伍在把台灣的經濟打穩那今天所有花絕到"},{"start":5862.011,"end":5888.344,"text":"都在採國土政協那是國防部的職責如果應用經濟情勢的話不應該換來這不是啦我們要檢討那不要亂寫等一下要說我反對了那報紙沒准你們所有我們執政黨好朋友的立委你們坐在我是講檢討不是反對預算不是講三十預算我把最新的情勢總統昨天講的話我比民進黨"},{"start":5889.705,"end":5913.642,"text":"的委員還要認真,我大概把他每一句話都背下來我提出建議,把這些錢來部長、政法會我們的職位,把他AI發展資訊把它來用到美國去支持他們AI產業然後來支持我們AI的十大建設這不敢丟,還沒講完,每天就公佈去台六的安座"},{"start":5915.344,"end":5921.955,"text":"幾十年幾十年幾十年我們的經濟那個武器買了多少到底能不能用也沒有實際的一個驗證出來"},{"start":5925.205,"end":5946.66,"text":"那這個值得是我們要探討最後強調是檢討強化社會經濟、國土安全、利潤性的財源要如何運用不是反對也不是要刪減也不是要凍結不然電視上又講了現在主要懷疑美國懷疑台灣都有問題"},{"start":5947.961,"end":5966.994,"text":"本來懷疑這是檢驗的真理我們要想到走出我們最安全最好的路不要一直再強調國土認証案國防部要做了今天是我們為了應用我們台灣的經濟情勢好不好 謝謝大家好 現在請林黛嬅委員"},{"start":5973.438,"end":5993.313,"text":"這個本席要針對這個條例在我們上次的一個大體詢答當中其實我們是要面對的是我的經濟下修在我們的這個有這個銀行都已經有預測本年度的經濟會下修0.6還是0.4甚至會下修到1.1"},{"start":6000.978,"end":6024.185,"text":"這個才是今天我特別條例要防止他經濟下修我個人都期待我也希望我跟我們的行政團隊期待今年能夠的經濟成長率是飽三所以今天各位不分朝野在這邊就是為了我的經濟所以剛才陳昌明省委員講得非常好他念之在之就是在經濟好 第二個"},{"start":6025.425,"end":6030.409,"text":"要把這個經濟當中講的就是對等關稅跟我的財幣升值現在台幣升值的結果已經造成我內需的緊張我們現在都補助我們的出口的業者但是也因為補助出口的業者之後我的會健全他們的財務狀況這是好的但是對他獲利有沒有幫忙 沒有"},{"start":6052.708,"end":6054.052,"text":"所以但是又衝擊到我的內需市場我的這個商圈我的服務業我的這個餐飲業"},{"start":6061.343,"end":6071.313,"text":"好 旅宿業我會沒有 因為大家都出國玩了 我台幣升值啊所以內需的部分才需要我們 我這邊也跟主計長上司也互相的討論過另外一個部分就是擴大工界好 為什麼這個國土任性經過這幾番的幾位委員的討論尤其這個國民黨跟民眾黨 你們看得太狹隘了我認同邱志偉邱委員的"},{"start":6084.585,"end":6087.729,"text":"後面的國土韌性是什麼 這1500億做什麼事情兩件事情 造建跟資通訊這兩個反而是能夠加惠我的造轉廠跟全國的資通信業者我在這邊都要強力要求"},{"start":6101.767,"end":6125.024,"text":"在這1500億部當中的造建跟資通訊60%一定要國產這才是能夠讓我帶入我的經濟產業包括我的公共建設的擴大能夠讓我的補助之後讓所有的業者能夠在他的健全他的財務之下他的盈利在哪裡只有擴大工建"},{"start":6127.766,"end":6147.836,"text":"1500億如果我的六成是要求因為畢竟照件還是有一些紅色關鍵的一定得跟國外採買而且它是限制性的一定是要國際上都是列管的一個關鍵的零組件那無可厚非那一定要跟國外除了這個之外"},{"start":6148.616,"end":6150.678,"text":"全部我都覺得要求60%這才是今天與其在爭論國土韌性這麼低階只在這個四個字在這邊糾結而沒看到後面這1500億所帶來的國家整個造船業整個資通訊的大力的提升這樣的一個遠景"},{"start":6168.237,"end":6191.812,"text":"所以本席真的是要在這個論點當中在跟我們國民黨跟民眾黨的各位同志如果我們真的念茲載茲是在經濟的話今天不是召見反而我們的召見不能全部都是進口的而是要求資通訊跟召見60%如果你認同的話甚至你都可以再次的提高60%一定要國產化 謝謝 以上好 謝謝"},{"start":6195.487,"end":6216.477,"text":"現在二次發言請張七開委員說法是立法委員的基本要求吧基本的素養吧"},{"start":6218.769,"end":6242.727,"text":"今天某些立法委員自己不守法你們不只以前違憲亂政欸你們現在有沒有在看年度預算有沒有在看預算法為什麼今天我們要討論說國土安全正信這個你只要翻一翻他提的這個項目不就在每年度的年度預算裡面嗎你們現在有些立委現在連年度預算跟特別預算都搞不清楚嗎連最基本的年度預算跟特別預算都搞不清楚嗎"},{"start":6250.609,"end":6277.301,"text":"為什麼叫大灌水蛋而已你明明是該在年度預算裡面的 剛講什麼照件什麼資通訊 提升資訊作業強化防衛能量你預算書裡面 欸今年度的預算現在五月份了 剛在執行欸這些預算不是都在執行當中嗎立委 包括民進黨 你們當初在審的時候你們審過一次了欸 現在執行中欸"},{"start":6279.727,"end":6306.736,"text":"行政院明明講一開始880變930是要做什麼川普的高關稅嘛 對不對那你提到930我們也支持我們民眾黨還提得更高我們支持我們產業支持我們勞工 支持我們人民可是他大灌水大漏雨他把年度預算現在已經在執行的東西一下又把他灌水灌進來立法委員如果守法你怎麼會同意這樣的預算呢"},{"start":6308.134,"end":6317.506,"text":"你連最基本的預算法的規定連最基本的年度預算跟台北預算的分級都不做嗎那你破壞完之後問民進黨立委你會不會要省年度預算"},{"start":6321.397,"end":6347.074,"text":"你們如果支持這筆預算應該怎麼做不是大灌水灌到這裡面來請他第一個連度已經在執行中的不管是海委會國防部他已經在執行中的要他落實來做那真的不夠你提另外的追加預算嘛這不就是預算法裡面明定的嗎你要走正道還怎麼走外掛走那種斜門外道的路呢我問一個最簡單的"},{"start":6348.953,"end":6374.99,"text":"你們今年現在如果你們同意這一筆追加放在這裡面那你明年度你要不要再列在年度預算裡面的東西你弄到特別預算裡面來那你現在執行出了問題那你明年要不要再編這不都是問題嗎所以現在請民進黨的立委想一想你們是立法委員你們守不守法你們有守法嗎這是一個基本的概念"},{"start":6377.321,"end":6399.329,"text":"是不是一個基本的概念好 第二個要提為什麼民眾黨特別提出來要普發現金剛剛連民進黨立委都講啊今年的經濟成長率受到衝擊也會下降啊通膨又這麼嚴重又有高酸素的衝擊那人民現在即時也要什麼就是要普發現金嘛你看看所有民調大家都認為要普發現金嘛民進黨為什麼要擋呢"},{"start":6401.642,"end":6425.229,"text":"該支持的不支持然後大灌水的應該挪回去年度預算的你剛剛在講我特別強調一下你如果認為國安是重要的你又就要在年度預算裡面每一年好好去執行你甚至有追加預算的這個法律規定啊不走正道然後今天還一直在扭曲今天如果用民進黨這個通過的話那以後年度預算幾乎是不要省了"},{"start":6427.312,"end":6444.117,"text":"好 另外要強調一點 剛才民進黨立委提到說昨天通過的要把河山延長或者是重新啟動 繼續來運轉他們多手批評 我要特別提醒"},{"start":6446.121,"end":6472.187,"text":"我們現在變成核能零的時候第一個不只是一年增加了一千億的發電成本我們的電價會上升成本會增加的同時空污越來越嚴重所以包括盧秀燕盧市長都出來抗議了我的中火火力全開我們台中市民用廢塞呼吸犧牲的是我們的健康我要提醒是全民不是只有在台中包括高雄的立法委員請注意"},{"start":6473.308,"end":6499.608,"text":"高雄因為沒有核電之後你們的火力發電也在增加當中你們對得起高雄的市民嗎你們是不是應該向盧秀燕看齊好好回去看一下高雄的火力發電從5月17號之後增加多少會有多少的空污的這個增加對人民的會對人民健康有多大衝擊不是每天只要喊一些"},{"start":6501.363,"end":6527.449,"text":"什麼核廢料 核廢料全世界都可以處理只有民進黨說沒辦法處理最重要的我覺得不只是成本的增加人民更注意的是他的健康請全台灣所有的民意代表現在靜下來跟盧秀燕看齊好好去看我們變成核能零的時候到底我們火力發電增加了多少台電跟我們講我們現在火力發電是84%大家去看一下"},{"start":6530.885,"end":6559.013,"text":"南韓跟我們是很重要的一個競爭對手它的核能30.3%它的火力發電只有60我們現在是零核能是零人家核能比較便宜所以現在南韓一直拼命在提升他們的核能我們結果把它變成是零然後我們的空汙會有影響的火力發電人家是60你一下提升到84到了晚上太陽下山都是九成以上"},{"start":6560.069,"end":6587.8,"text":"所以盧修穎才抗議啊所以你在517那天的生類過後我的火力發電全開了中火好不容易說要降載或者是燃煤不要再燒了盧修穎講90個燃煤燒煤炭的機組除了一部剛好那天在維修之外九部幾乎是火力全開你這樣怎麼對得起台中市民啊我更要提醒"},{"start":6589.229,"end":6617.35,"text":"那一天不是只有台中市全台灣在那天的晚上火力發電超過96%全台灣所有的人都用肺在呼吸在發電怎麼對得起我們台灣全體的民眾啊所以包括民進黨立委我正告你們你們如果真的要對得起民眾不管你來自哪裡請密切的注意我們的火力全開人家用會發電的時候包括特別是我提醒這個對人民健康影響有多大像我在嘉義"},{"start":6619.338,"end":6647.961,"text":"去年河山廠的一號機停了之後政府做了什麼事情把本來已經停下來台灣第二發電的污染源最大的麥寮合約本來已經到啦為了河山廠一號機停了之後緊急去跟麥寮電廠繼續燒煤繼續吸煙要到今年年底所以包括雲林嘉義彰化的很多民眾就要北上來抗議了現在河山廠二號機又停了火力發電有多少地方不是只有台中碰到問題"},{"start":6650.379,"end":6659.668,"text":"所以所有的民運代表要問政啊 謀著良心去面對我們台灣火力發電之後空污增加的問題照顧我們人民的這個安全 謝謝"},{"start":6660.964,"end":6688.766,"text":"好各位委員等一下不要再用那個因為那個剛才是那個邱志偉委員他感冒他去那裡用你們不要再繼續去用那裡等一下大家都感染他的感冒那我們就在位置上發言就好那請大家簡短因為已經是二次發言了然後我們最後請行政機關答覆那我看大家也沒有什麼共識我們是不是就保留條文第一個主席因為只有第二個事務"},{"start":6690.312,"end":6714.304,"text":"因為我們勢必要做一些回應因為剛剛張委員有講了一些對於委員當中的一個認知好像有一些批評我覺得這是不公平的我必須說今天可能國民黨太久沒有中央執政了民眾黨是從來沒有中央執政過所以現在在談核廢料"},{"start":6714.964,"end":6739.95,"text":"我覺得好像已經忘記了現在核廢料所產生的狀況是什麼如果核廢料真的可以處理 不用到處塞如果核廢料真的可以處理 不用到處買所以不能在現在講一些沒有根據 沒有事實的然後硬塞在目前執政黨的身上說核廢料是可以處理的"},{"start":6741.03,"end":6766.826,"text":"如果核廢料可以處理我相信沒有現在我們所有的核一核二核三我們的核廢料現在到處埋的狀況所以這個我們必須做澄清那第二個部分是我們的預算大家不要忘了特別條例之後才有特別預算但是現在大家把它搞在一起了"},{"start":6767.694,"end":6780.844,"text":"沒有特別條例過了怎麼有特別預算所以我相信現在國民黨的委員好多提出附帶決議我要拜託主席還是要做一個劃分"},{"start":6782.523,"end":6807.016,"text":"特別條例跟特別預算是不一樣的好多說已經這個要附帶決議今天我們要處理什麼健保勞保然後協助弱勢多少錢我們特別條例就沒用想要怎麼去處理這些特別預算所以主席我覺得這是很重要的我們可以不說可是當已經"},{"start":6808.176,"end":6834.426,"text":"說了一些跟事實不一樣的因為大家都都有意見那是不是你們表達一下簡短你們都第二次了好不好那你們簡短表達一下我們給行政單位表達對 因為其他講了太久人家講了太多跟事實不符合的所以我們必須要去做回應然後呢第三個部分是我們沒有灌水我們也沒有乾坤大羅宜"},{"start":6835.846,"end":6862.006,"text":"本預算行政院的本預算跟特別條例本來就不一樣完全不一樣我們都尊重每個政黨所提出的特別條例的內容但是也請互相尊重行政院所提出來的每一筆預算這個部分再拜託主席如果要剪短你請我們剪短也請所有的在野黨也要剪短"},{"start":6867.163,"end":6882.763,"text":"謝主席還是要簡單講一下因為剛剛張旗桿這樣講其實我很不能認同如果要講到這些空污的問題的話南部其實過去來受災是最嚴重南電北送多久的時間了南部不只在現在還在蓋第七接收站還在準備燃氣電廠"},{"start":6884.045,"end":6911.512,"text":"但是其實這樣子我們還是努力的減少了七成的空污的狀況高雄還會努力 南部也會努力 非常努力結果昨天張啟凱所主導的案子叫做通過什麼叫做通過核三廠除役核三廠繼續這個研議那為什麼不是核一核二為什麼只有核三就是說什麼樣的思維而有這樣的想法你如果每天是居住在南部我九年前的時候每天從南部的鴻駭到台北的綠再回到高雄的鴻駭那種感受"},{"start":6913.293,"end":6935.692,"text":"長期住在台北的立委用這樣講話的態度我完全無法接受如果你感同身受真的知道南部人的苦的話真的知道南部人怎麼在撐著台灣的話你不會用這樣的態度包括如果你知道核電的風險的高度然後好不容易用了40年廚藝之後然後你的提案竟然只是說核三因為核三在高雄在南部在屏東核一核二在北部連核廢料連"},{"start":6938.131,"end":6960.242,"text":"這個朱立倫連侯友宜都不願意接受的然後你們完全漠視掉這個問題然後只是單純我認為這樣的做法其實是讓人家看不起的啦正式人物要有基本的格局用這樣的方式處理事情是看不起的簡單講 第二個是將強化國土的韌性 各位理性的思考啦如果沒有台灣整體的自由民主的安全的話那台灣還有什麼"},{"start":6961.363,"end":6980.966,"text":"台灣還有什麼 我們現在要成立的是建立我們牆衛的防衛自我能力待會可以讓國防部跟那個還有我請他們都要務必要說明如果沒有這些預算的話 為什麼需要用特別預算因為既有預算裡面其實不足 加上了去年一整年被藍白的硬拿走了3700多億的逃犯拿走之後 中央的財源一定更吃緊"},{"start":6981.687,"end":7005.741,"text":"如果沒有用特別預算給予這些財源支持 要做什麼事情要加強台灣周邊的監測能力包括海域的 包括岸海的 包括無人載具的 包括海軍海巡的如果我們沒有強化這些能力的話 我們怎麼去保衛我們的安全最近幾個偷渡案跑進來 還有跑進來之後插上了五星旗這個我們能接受嗎 這樣的狀況 海巡的兄弟們壓力大不大 國軍兄弟壓力大不大"},{"start":7006.683,"end":7011.416,"text":"所以我再次強調請大家烏一本著良心來支持這樣的預算"},{"start":7013.496,"end":7041.295,"text":"你不是說一下子嗎 這樣子大家說一下子 我要計時喔就是計時大家就 這樣比長度就很方便啦因為我們會議有主席嘛 應該要主席 大家 大家就計時喔好不好 很難寫的啊 對不對好 我們現在給行政單位回覆一下 那我看其實大家就沒有就是沒有辦法有共識 我們就保留 好不好好 那個海委會國防部副部長 然後最後由經濟部長"},{"start":7051.534,"end":7072.065,"text":"主席各位委員各位同仁媒體朋友大家好我首先說明就是說很感謝所有的委員部分黨派都說支持我們的國土安全那我要告訴各位委員報告各位委員就是說如果今天這個條例不納入海巡署所需的國土安全大家支持的預算的話"},{"start":7073.286,"end":7092.744,"text":"那有兩個途徑 一個是徐宇珍委員說的你們去弄追加預算 賴氏堡委員有這麼說那我告訴各位 要我們去求追加預算要我們去爭取追加預算的意思有兩個第一個 你再送一個法案來追加預算第二個 你去舉債"},{"start":7095.026,"end":7119.358,"text":"因為4100億用完了 追加預算的錢在哪裡 當然是舉債所以支持這筆預算 可是把我們踢去追加預算的意思就是說哎呀 我支持你啦 你去舉債啦好 大家要不要 這是第一點第二個 委員說這可以編公務預算 我跟各位報告明年用新的財劃法 各部會被通知的就是我們至少要減28%"},{"start":7121.431,"end":7139.858,"text":"可是如果我明年要把這筆預算編進去是110億是要增加110億我一定擠不進去所以委員如果說為了財政紀律 像張其開委員說的為了財政紀律你去編年度預算那你的意思就是說你們慢慢來啦 慢慢拖啦"},{"start":7142.441,"end":7160.066,"text":"所以要我們去追加預算要錢就是叫我們舉債來做要我們去編公務預算就是叫我們慢慢來拖沒關係要不要林口案5月16號已經服刑期滿回去了"},{"start":7161.581,"end":7183.288,"text":"淡水河岸更早浮行期滿我們的預算還在被踢皮球錢在哪裡我要告訴各位我2月4號就向行政院院長卓院長報告這個計畫了是我先要這筆錢的我不是偷渡擠進來的我再說一次"},{"start":7184.605,"end":7213.728,"text":"我2月4號就得到卓院長的支持了而這一筆預算跟關稅有沒有關係 當然有關係 為什麼 第一個對美採購的部分就是平衡利差對美採購的部分就是平衡利差國內造建等等的預算就是支持產業哪裡不符合特別條例的精神完全符合"},{"start":7214.602,"end":7238.432,"text":"而且最早要求所以到今天還被這樣誤會我其實很心痛大家看到了嗎這幾天的偷渡案件三個案再度證明說前面兩個案沒有紅外線熱像儀我們雷達就是浪乾"},{"start":7239.915,"end":7249.002,"text":"光影沒法分辨可是金門這個案520清晨金門這個案我們有紅外線了我們就抓到了"},{"start":7250.18,"end":7276.433,"text":"給不給呢海巡過去不是為了小目標偷渡的零漏接來部署它的量能海巡過去部署的量能不在這一塊去年淡水河事件大家這麼重視以後我們決定要布局這一塊小目標偷渡一年大概一二十個案件海巡的破破率其實是很高的可是淡水河事件林口事件告訴海巡說你要零漏接"},{"start":7277.453,"end":7303.224,"text":"為了要零漏接 所以我必須部署小目標偷渡零漏接啊今天要求海巡小目標偷渡也要顧我們要抓毒品 我們要抓偷渡 我們要抓走私我們還要應對海警船 還要應對科研船還要應對越界捕魚 還要護魚我們的事情那麼多的時候 今天要求說小目標要零漏接 好"},{"start":7304.264,"end":7314.246,"text":"我從去年8月開會到現在開了至少25次正式的會議做出一個計畫這個計畫盤點到什麼地步盤點到我今年年底就可以開始做了盤點到什麼地步盤點到我們踏遍1821公里的海岸線哪裡要紅外線哪裡要港間哪裡要環島"},{"start":7329.394,"end":7334.959,"text":"我都做出來了 哪裡要次世代雷達我都做出來了啊不給錢我二月就要的錢然後說我偷渡行政院納進來啦行政院支持啦而且絕對跟關稅事件有關絕對有關對沒採購就是平衡逆差"},{"start":7357.165,"end":7358.686,"text":"產業就是扶植我國內採購就是扶植產業啊我對美採購就是平衡逆差我完全符合這個條例的精神啊今天讓我這麼激動我很抱歉各位都是我的同學"},{"start":7376.434,"end":7388.964,"text":"不是不給我 是被地方刪掉嗎有稅出剩餘不用擠債你2月份就送最佳預算過來的話不就有了嗎你2月份我送最佳預算不就有了嗎你2月份就送最佳預算不就有了就不用擠債 不用擠債同樣一筆錢啊 4100億行李給我那委員給我 那4100億給我編綜商就好了"},{"start":7405.617,"end":7417.045,"text":"4100億留給我們編追加預算好不好對不對如果照這樣的理由稅出剩餘就夠了啊對就是4100億為什麼要擠稅追加預算就可以送來啊好你還要就送 請這人既然不給你給我你還要就送 請這人既然不給你"},{"start":7422.857,"end":7431.803,"text":"行政院給我所以我送進來了就是現在你現在還沒有啊就是你們行政院的事情還沒有委員事實證明行政院給我了進來了是要被大家刪掉的是大家要刪掉的嗎是大家要刪掉的嗎你當海委會的委員九年你竟然不知道海岸線好 這九年我們做了什麼"},{"start":7452.735,"end":7467.229,"text":"這九年我們做了十二艘可以掛飛彈的船這九年我們造了四艘四千噸的船這九年我們在對應海警船我們什麼叫做沒做事委員 不要這樣說海巡不要這樣欺負海巡"},{"start":7470.953,"end":7485.309,"text":"不要這樣詆毀海巡你完全不了解你當海聯會委員的這個資格跟能力你根本不適任你根本不適任不要詆毀海巡他是我們國家捍衛海疆的英勇部隊"},{"start":7487.253,"end":7491.936,"text":"不要詆毀他們沒做事我跟委員報告他們沒有不做事他們做的事情是非常短的時間迅速從執法機關要變成國安機關海巡的辛苦你們完全不知道我在爭取啊 你不給啊"},{"start":7508.827,"end":7514.129,"text":"我在爭取4100億啊 剛剛鄭委員就說啊要順濟順餘啊 就是4100億啊我在爭取啊 但是大家不肯給啊那你把我踢去哪裡 踢去舉債嗎那我去舉債你們給不給 還是要進來啊沒有啊 4100億全部被用光啊 在哪裡"},{"start":7531.516,"end":7550.889,"text":"我沒有海巡沒有做不好事海巡沒有做不好事海巡沒有做不好事海巡沒有做不好事海巡沒有做不好事海巡沒有做不好事海巡沒有做不好事海巡沒有做不好事"},{"start":7864.369,"end":7892.111,"text":"繼續開會因為這一個特別預算好像大家都意見分歧特別條例大家都意見分歧所以以後我們委員發言我們就限制兩分鐘那官員回覆的時候也限制兩分鐘請大家簡短發言然後不要用情緒性的致言那我們就可以理性的來討論這些事情以上剛才大家都回覆完了是不是那第一條是不是就保留"},{"start":7893.854,"end":7907.942,"text":"有沒有意見好各黨團沒有意見的話我們就進行第二條第二條各位委員有沒有意見陳廷飛委員"},{"start":7915.355,"end":7939.677,"text":"謝謝主席其實我們真的要體諒管主委為什麼會那麼的激動其實最近發生的兩件事情大家都很清楚大家開始在怪說這個海巡署你的這個周邊的這個設備或是我們第一線的巡防沒有到位造成有這樣的破洞"},{"start":7940.518,"end":7945.965,"text":"可是你錢又不給他那發生事情又要罵海巡署我覺得難怪他會很激動所以我們要強調的是在這一次為什麼我們要把這個國土任性一定要把它放入"},{"start":7958.555,"end":7980.629,"text":"產業 經濟 國防 國土安全這是缺一不可的不是今天說你談經濟就可以把國土把任性的一個國安把它整個切割掉是不可能的所以我還是認為說今天當然大家都有起義所提出的版本都不一樣但是我還是要再次拜託"},{"start":7982.01,"end":7984.391,"text":"談到經濟 談到產業我們一定不可能把國土這個區塊把它切開來因為他們是綁在一起的整個國際情勢的演變"},{"start":7995.543,"end":8012.68,"text":"不是今天誰跟你談經濟就不會跟你談國安就不會跟你談國土不可能所以我們拜託不要這麼樣的狹隘我們今天既然要處理特別條例就是要把整個宏觀性提出來"},{"start":8014.096,"end":8027.117,"text":"而不是因為政治立場的不同或是做政治的操作而去曲解這整個我們整個任性特別條例的一個前提所以我們還是再次強調"},{"start":8030.758,"end":8045.447,"text":"經濟產業國土他的韌性是不能切開而且是一致性的否則就會像最近所發生的我們海巡署被質疑被抨擊的這個問題一樣說中國有到了我們的海防居然我們都不知道這對我們來講錢又不給然後又要怪"},{"start":8057.81,"end":8082.213,"text":"到底你要海巡署怎麼做好現在請賴瑞榮委員我想我還是要再提一下 因為這一段時間其實中共對我們採取越來越多的灰色地帶的處理所以不管是從漁船到研究船到小艇甚至於到橡皮船不斷挑戰我們的"},{"start":8083.554,"end":8110.605,"text":"進入到我們的國土甚至進入到我們的岸上所以這是一個新的挑戰的一個趨勢那我認為其實應該要給予我們的國軍給予我們的海巡兄弟們更多的一些支持所以我認為其實要把這個時候把這個預算放進來因為海域的監測包括岸海的甚至於整個立體性的無人載具的這些對於我們守護這些的國家的安全很重要大家試想我們能夠忍受一而再再而再的發生"},{"start":8112.245,"end":8128.61,"text":"這個中國的人然後進到了台灣的海岸上之後然後插上五金旗嗎這樣的事情如果不斷的發生大家能夠接受嗎我們認為其實我們要給予但是以現在的能量來說確實是有相當的難度所以剛剛管主委其實講的也非常的清楚然後我們認為其實請這個"},{"start":8130.791,"end":8159.534,"text":"朝野立委大家能夠共同支持我認為這個國家的安全台灣自由民主的基礎這個是更重要的這個是在確保更重要的事情那國家資源有限下說怎麼來優先使用我認為這樣的項目應該放在最優先所以待會有機會我還是希望除了管諸葛我希望國防部也能夠再次的說明讓各界更清楚知道為什麼我們需要這些預算達到這樣的應用效果是達到最好的也是對國人最能夠交代的一個做法以上"},{"start":8160.316,"end":8177.323,"text":"好 現在請鄭天才委員那第三條這個因為第二項第二項是第二條第二條的第二項"},{"start":8179.252,"end":8190.361,"text":"這個跟這個第一條跟法案名稱都有關係啊所以剛才前面的竟然已經保留了所以也要保留那至於第二條的第一項"},{"start":8192.123,"end":8210.76,"text":"這個部分的這個以目前不論是從行政院的版本的第三條或是國民黨團版本的第三條民眾黨團或其他委員的版本的第三條的這些項目來看的話"},{"start":8212.103,"end":8229.958,"text":"這個主管機關以經濟部為主管機關似乎是不太妥當應該要比照之前的那個這個疫情之後的那個特別條例由國發會來擔任這個主管機關會比較適當以上好 邱毅委員"},{"start":8239.107,"end":8262.044,"text":"好谢谢主席现在既然已经进入到第二条我刚刚就讲过了这个每一个条文都会跟国土安全有关那其实上次在我们答询的时候包括这个国防部的次长跟这个管主委对于国防安全国土安全这一件事情上面在他们的这些应有的战备的"},{"start":8263.585,"end":8291.188,"text":"預算配置上也都講得非常的清楚所以我還是要懇請這個在野黨的委員真的要好好的認真的思考一下台灣整體的安全防衛政策到底是什麼如果特別條例把它放進去這對於台灣整體的國土安全這才會是保障那至於剛剛這個張祺凱委員這個講了一大段我實在是聽不太懂他說"},{"start":8292.69,"end":8301.327,"text":"說我們違法然後又說盧秀燕在抗議說大家都在用廢呼吸喔我不知道盧秀燕為什麼要抗議有誰不是用廢呼吸的嗎那"},{"start":8304.868,"end":8328.556,"text":"這個講法就非常的奇怪然後他說全世界都可以處理核廢料我問過很多他們的人包括這個賴思寶說核廢料美國處理核安美國負責那他說全世界都可以處理核廢料我就請教他們要怎麼處理核廢料也沒有人可以給一個相同的也沒有人可以給一個正確的答案所以在這邊胡說八道一番然後搞到整個"},{"start":8329.776,"end":8348.334,"text":"特別條例的預算的審查氣氛非常的不好我也不知道他的所為何來然後現在人又不見了也不知道跑到哪裡去了所以我還是懇請主席真的要好好的認真的思考在國家安全的這一塊上面我們真的應該要給予更多的關注"},{"start":8351.435,"end":8372.422,"text":"好 謝謝 我們現在請蔡易餘委員好 謝謝主席剛剛張祺凱在發言的時候基本上對我們在場在省裡的每一個立委有夠不尊重非常不尊重說什麼我們大家都違法大家在省裡特別條例怎麼會有違法的問題呢"},{"start":8374.409,"end":8394.075,"text":"如果說我們正在討論國土安全是不是要納入這一次的特別條例那這個當然就是特別條例要處理的啊不然回到頭來講你現在講好經濟部要增加說強化這個企業的競爭力所以他們要強化他們的推廣的一個外銷的一個能力那本預算沒有嗎本預算沒有說經濟部也要去強化嗎"},{"start":8400.558,"end":8418.686,"text":"那對於這個產業的金融支持本預算沒有嗎也是有嘛也是有這樣的項目啊那同樣有項目的話表示說本預算不足的情況之下我們特別因應狀況用特別條例然後來給他更多的預算讓他強化他的作業這塊有什麼問題"},{"start":8422.092,"end":8429.554,"text":"這個有什麼問題?所以大家才在這裡審議啊結果張委員計民就說你們這個立法委員你們只要講到這個國土安全你們就是違法你們就不守法這個未免也太誇張了這個難怪剛剛氣氛會搞成這樣然後我再回到我們的主題講我們這一次的法案就是因應國際情勢"},{"start":8447.779,"end":8475.205,"text":"每一個包括國民黨包括民眾黨包括其他的個別委員提的都是因應國際歧視喔沒有一個人是講因應美國關稅沒辦法民眾黨的版本也是因應國際歧視啊好那美國關稅的一個情況之下是只有台灣嗎不是餒美國的關稅也有對中國餒美國的關稅對等關稅也有對越南餒"},{"start":8476.625,"end":8494.77,"text":"對每一個國家都一樣有關稅那既然每一個國家又有關稅高低現在是因為進入這個談判期所以大家都信用10%但是中國中國不是10%中國現在是30%所以現在中國的商品跟台灣的商品關稅對美會有20%的差距那既然會有關稅的差距的話會不會有"},{"start":8501.84,"end":8527.808,"text":"左撕 會不會有洗產品的狀況 可能會有嘛 年事狀運年事狀運的用的那個手錶 要記心跳的手錶 大家洗產品裡面用中國的芯片年事狀運用的要送的類品 要撕標籤 因為原本的標籤寫Made in China 中國字"},{"start":8529.388,"end":8532.031,"text":"就明明有這樣的狀況嘛那既然有這樣的狀況的話我們在於說加強海巡署夜間偵測的能力杜絕走私杜絕這樣要來洗產品的一個狀況"},{"start":8542.782,"end":8562.188,"text":"我們來強化國防部要大量的用所謂的無人機然後來捍衛我們台灣整個國土至少是一個處於一個可以偵測敵人有沒有攻進來敵人有沒有要來竊取我們的一些主要的一些戰略地點的一些資訊的話這部分我們都需要情搜所以這都是國際情勢的一環我們因應國際情勢難得鼠藥加以神來支持"},{"start":8574.664,"end":8598.713,"text":"國民黨民眾黨你們的版本也是國際情勢啊你們又不是講只有因應美國關稅所以我還是回到頭啦我們討論這件事情大家先靜下來講到底國土安全重不重要需不需要特別預算來支撐如果需要的話為什麼在第一條第二條甚至名稱都被他排除沒有這樣的道理好我們現在請張祺凱委員"},{"start":8605.919,"end":8623.675,"text":"我做一個很簡單的這個建議第一個請所有的立法委員回去看一下這次行政院提出來跟國土安全任性有關的這些預算的這個項目是不是你在年度預算裡面看得到你也可以一起他明年你如果"},{"start":8635.428,"end":8648.76,"text":"所以剛剛所以剛剛主委管主委特別提到說二月份他發現說他可能要再增加新的那你這做預算法很明確對你要去追加預算嘛剛剛為什麼會引起一個爭執"},{"start":8651.431,"end":8662.994,"text":"鄭天才政委員講得很好啊你那時候發現有問題了那時候稅基證也很多那你趕快提應該就是行政院決定嘛輕重緩急他就應該給你啊所以不給的是誰"},{"start":8664.721,"end":8689.563,"text":"第一個不給的是行政院 更重要的就是目前我們法例跟預算法跟我們的財政紀律它是有制度的來解決問題的你本來就走這一條路啊所以剛剛在談為什麼要談說年度預算有編的你就盡量不要再特別預算特別這一次大家都很清楚這整個過程行政院行政院從一開始從行政院一開始"},{"start":8689.963,"end":8714.175,"text":"他就講說 行政一開始就講說他要的是880億後來提高到了930對不對提高930嘛結果你後來去比較你發現多出兩個東西來嘛一個是台電的1000億嘛第二就是1500億的國土安全任性特別這部分嘛那我現在剛提了我為什麼講說我們立法委員基本上一定要守法就連立法委員都不守法"},{"start":8715.306,"end":8717.336,"text":"拜託你一般民眾怎麼說法我們是法治社會嘛對不對"},{"start":8722.072,"end":8746.529,"text":"問個最簡單的問題問個最簡單的問題這個都符合預算法啦不要說合法不合法啦合法不守法啦問一個最簡單的問題問一個最簡單的問題問一個最簡單的問題這個符合預算張棋棋委員說不守法請那個都解釋一下好不好如果不守法那今天會議不用開了我請求程旭會議先解釋這件事情要說守法不守法嘛請主席請說明一下主席如果不守法那今天會議不用開了請委員跟我們禮拜如果不守法那今天會議不用開了"},{"start":8752.192,"end":8773.202,"text":"那請先程序問題 先解釋有沒有我的說法問一個再簡單的問題現在的年度預算 今年度喔 正實行到五月份喔這是特別條例 特別預算這是特別條例 特別預算不是你個人說的算法好 你就選一 我會說那你也要選一那你明年要不要再添"},{"start":8777.239,"end":8790.046,"text":"你明年要不要再編這要特別條例 特別疫苗三期的工廊數字會議完了不守法 會議方塊你明年要不要特別條例進來那明年要不要編你講哪裡不守法我請國務院說明我請國務院說明哪裡不守法那這個經濟部 農業部沒有編不守法的話這會議要開什麼"},{"start":8797.301,"end":8825.946,"text":"我們現在按照議事規則我們現在就按照議事規則處理我們現在在審的是特別條例喔那大家對於就是關於海巡署以及國防部的預算放在哪裡有意見那這個部分我們都可以尊重各黨團以及各別委員意見那"},{"start":8827.006,"end":8855.221,"text":"意見非常分歧我們現在是不是就第二條大家進行保留程序問題我先要求提出來針對講不守法的事情要做處理要不然每次都說不守法這問題怎麼處理怎麼開會有沒有不守法的問題如果沒有不守法的問題請張綺蘭後面就不要再講這種話了如果有不守法的問題請解釋清楚我們有主任有專委今天行政部門都在如果有不守法的問題那請處理成守法再來處理這個會議"},{"start":8857.008,"end":8873.535,"text":"那主席因為如果說這個說話的方向沒有改變他會從第二條一直講到最後都是不守法那我們這邊要審什麼那這些官員坐在這裡難道我們都在處理不守法的東西嗎"},{"start":8874.255,"end":8890.766,"text":"因為提出來都是不守法的東西嘛所以我們建議回到年度預算去嘛把這1500億回到年度預算去嘛那其他項目也要回到年度預算嗎大家都有共識啊 都沒問題啊只有你沒提到國土的政策那再補充一下民眾黨的提案也是不守法的提案你還跟著大家提不守法的提案啊民眾黨要不要先撤掉你的案子"},{"start":8903.574,"end":8931.816,"text":"你說別人不守法你自己也提不守法的案子照你的標準民眾黨提不守法的案子出來幹嘛我們現在是不是就現在在討論的現在私私有在國土安全這一塊你們把年度預算的東西挪過來啊你也有啊你也有啊勞工安定就業基金就業照民眾黨的說法民眾黨自己的版本也是你的不守法版本啊自己打自己的臉啊"},{"start":8933.659,"end":8957.718,"text":"我們現在對於條例裡面大家對於國土安全以及國防就是海巡署的預算放在哪裡有疑義這尊重主席台都按照議事規則處理也尊重各黨團還有個別委員的意見完全都是按照議事規則"},{"start":8960.66,"end":8990.143,"text":"主席要求經濟委員會說明到底這個守不守法我們現在會議包內容守不守法如果不守法的話那今天會議是不能開的如果守法那請委員們不要再講出這樣的話來賴委員你是資深委員我們今天按照的議事規則以及從一開始到現在都是按照我們立法院的議事規則處理這個程序都合法"},{"start":8991.84,"end":9013.973,"text":"主席完全尊重所有黨團以及所有委員的意見是不是就保留第二條好現在對於特別條例第三條有沒有委員要表達意見"},{"start":9019.628,"end":9045.605,"text":"賴委員沒有意見就照行政院版通過第三條我還希望事實上國防部跟海巡署在座說明一下好不好張啟凱委員我建議依照台灣民眾黨版本通過好可以講話嗎可以第三條事實上也就是行政院的我們的台灣民眾黨第四條事實上也是這個行政院的第三條這一條是重中之重事實上所有的項目跟"},{"start":9046.964,"end":9063.92,"text":"額度大部分都在這裡面那台灣民眾黨強力的支持應應美國高關稅我們要支持我們的這個產業所以包括在行政院提的100億的協助企業開拓多元市場我們把它提高一倍"},{"start":9065.462,"end":9086.3,"text":"變成200億另外在支持勞工這一塊支持勞工的安定就業本來行政院編了150億我們把它大幅提高到350億還有我們支持農業金融改革跟提升產業競爭力跟協助開拓多元的市場所以行政院本來編了180億我們把它提高為300億元"},{"start":9090.407,"end":9114.772,"text":"然後呢 在勞健保這一塊 我們有適度的一個提升我們特別增加了普發現金這個6000塊錢另外我們建議要移除的 除了一直在強調的已經撥補三次3000億的這次不要用借私還魂 放進來的台電1000億的這個撥補之外就是我剛剛一直在跟大家強調的既然在年度預算裡面 已經有在國安的這一塊"},{"start":9115.848,"end":9144.316,"text":"那就回到年度預算來國安當然是重要的就是因為重要所以每年都在年度預算裡面去強化甚至在預算法裡面有明定你如果真的有出現緊急的狀況你都可以追加預算請大家依照預算法不要破壞財政紀律立法院是一個重視守法跟財政紀律的一個地方所以我建議大家可以採納台灣民眾黨的第四條 謝謝"},{"start":9146.636,"end":9160.339,"text":"好 請賴委員我剛剛的兩分鐘的時間因為我們的意見我是支持行政院第九 第十的那我是不是特別請國防部博副說明一下好不好強化國防能量跟資通訊的重要性可不可以請博副說明博副部長"},{"start":9170.663,"end":9195.555,"text":"各位委員還有各位委員先進我想國防部在這裡必須要再次強調我們這一次的特別預算我們的苦衷就是在於要快速建立我們的國防部的作業能力另外一個要快速的建立我們作業的能量大家都知道灰色地帶衝突是每天都在發生而中共從來沒有一分一秒放鬆的"},{"start":9196.465,"end":9217.044,"text":"那我们的作业的能力,这一点反映在灰色地带冲突的时候,它的迫切性是在我们所有的每天所面临上百万次的网攻,甚至于对我们通信系统的破坏,基础能力的破坏,这个方面是非常严重的。"},{"start":9217.805,"end":9240.482,"text":"如果我們能夠現在就編入到我們的特別預算,能夠馬上在國內採購我們所需要的裝備,那就可以馬上的增加我們的作業能力,那對我們的整體的房屋安全是有幫助的,這是第一點。第二點,能量的部分呢,我必須要強調,我們現在很多間接到地方上的全社會房屋任性,"},{"start":9241.443,"end":9267.844,"text":"諸如水資源或是油量資源或是等等的資源我們國安部的立場是要把這個能量建立好以便在這個緊急狀況的時候比如說天災風災的時候我們國安部有能力去支援地方來協助地方不管在平時發生任何的災變的時候我們有能量去處理第三個我必須要強調的這些預算因為我們變到年度預算是緩不濟急 為什麼"},{"start":9269.545,"end":9287.088,"text":"我們如果編到正常預算來編例的話在籌貨方面我現在如果編我馬上就可以籌貨戰利可是如果現在不能編等到明年我後年才獲得那在現在急迫的情況下因為我們國防預度有限我們在作業維持費上面來講我的預度就這麼大"},{"start":9288.129,"end":9305.282,"text":"我已經到了飽和了而且我這些預算所編列沒有在政治特別預算裡面所以這點要特別請委員來支持國安部有不得已的苦衷但是希望給我們國安部的資源在能力還有在能量上面來講給我們建立一個這樣子的人量謝謝大家謝謝現在請鄭天才委員"},{"start":9311.714,"end":9331.949,"text":"對於第三條這個有關這個行政院版第九款跟第十款的部分因為跟前面的法律名稱還有第二條都被保留了所以這個部分應該就要保留"},{"start":9333.05,"end":9351.28,"text":"那對於這個國民黨團版本民眾黨團版本以及很多委員的版本都有提到要補發現金那最主要就是說一個因應這個關稅的一個這個衝擊產業會受到衝擊農業會受到衝擊那一般的人民當然也會受到衝擊"},{"start":9359.557,"end":9367.347,"text":"這是必然的一般的人民也會受到衝擊所以這個部分是也要去這個來撲發現金來解決我們這個相關的衝擊以上現在請陳廷飛委員"},{"start":9378.072,"end":9393.291,"text":"謝謝主席其實我還是要再次強調其實台電這個部分我們的員工都很辛苦我覺得說當你要把它拿掉的時候要有充分的原因那你今天讓台電更穩定"},{"start":9394.612,"end":9413.666,"text":"讓我們整個中小企業的用電更穩定我相信這是基本的所以在這個台灣電力公司這個部分還有我們波普的部分我覺得這是一定要而且必要的我再一次拜託我們的同仁就是說在我們條例的部分處理"},{"start":9414.426,"end":9439.862,"text":"不要忘了最辛苦的在基層努力打拼的所有的基層人員那第二個部分是其實在特別條例我們真的很少看到說所謂的哪一個部分不能低於多少哪一個部分不能低於多少這個其實是在我們預算當中才會去審議的那我們都尊重但是我們還是要強調"},{"start":9441.703,"end":9460.371,"text":"在整個4100億的部分是我們有裁員我們要當特別預算有特別條例有特別預算是我們要有籌措裁員知道在哪一個區塊所以我們當然尊重每一個黨團的版本可是當你提出的時候你不能偏頗到"},{"start":9461.471,"end":9479.417,"text":"哪一个区块说我要取消那个部分来增加哪一个部分要有充分的理由否则每一个单位都是我们要去关注的在我们国土任性经济发展产业发展不论是我们的企业我们的产业农业"},{"start":9480.137,"end":9507.159,"text":"余孽都是我們在這個關稅當中所被影響所被欺負的那這個部分我們希望都要兼顧到甚至台電的部分就是企業體一而再再而三他們一直強調希望能夠有撥補撥補之後才不會反架在他們身上我們再次提醒我們的所有的同仁們謝謝好蔡英委員發言完楊瓊英委員"},{"start":9513.617,"end":9537.864,"text":"謝謝主席那第三條我想是這一次特別條例最重要的條文因為它涉及到這個4100億未來如何使用的部分那我覺得我還是得強調一下這個條文的本質上就是特別條例要來處理因應國際情勢所以必須要怎麼去做編列的一個大方向的一個調整所以就不會有偷渡"},{"start":9538.922,"end":9556.294,"text":"不會有所謂的挪移這樣的一個字眼的出現那我要舉例比方說在第四條第三條的第四項第四項的部分有所謂支持安定就業那就涉及到這個對於勞保基金的一個撥補"},{"start":9557.475,"end":9567.644,"text":"那事實上我們知道行政院已經連續6年都有撥補勞保基金109年的時候用本預算撥補了200億110年的時候本預算撥補了220億111年撥補300億112年撥補了450億113年撥補了1200億然後再加上易厚特別預算3年分別撥補"},{"start":9583.584,"end":9610.13,"text":"各100億等於撥補了300億那這個114年也有撥補1200億所以總撥補的金額是3870億是這6年撥補的金額那我們這次在處理特別預算我們依然是要對勞工支持所以我們一樣是有編列要撥補100億那所以這個既然在本預算有處理這一次的特別預算一樣予以處理"},{"start":9611.07,"end":9614.212,"text":"我們對勞工支持那這個不會有說這個是挪用不會有說這個是偷渡預算沒有這樣的狀況同理來說我們現在因應我們整體的國土安全那我們覺得海巡的他的夜間的一個偵測的功能要強化國防部應該要更完備的偵測的能力"},{"start":9634.804,"end":9657.687,"text":"那當然在特別預算予以編列所以不會有今天的審議不守法或者是我們有偷渡預算或者是我們去偷偷的挪用本預算到特別預算都沒有這種的總控大家都是很持平的在討論到底4100億要做怎樣的分配好現在請楊澄英委員"},{"start":9662.599,"end":9663.119,"text":"謝謝主席 針對這個我想有兩個"},{"start":9667.891,"end":9693.033,"text":"两个议题跟相关单位来讨论第一个就是我们台电博普1000亿的事情因为我们从每一次在经济委员会或者是在总咨询的时候都一直请教政府假设我在博普1000亿能不能不涨价但是我们都得不到政府给我们的一个承诺因为之前呢"},{"start":9694.234,"end":9719.046,"text":"我們已經有撥補了3000億撥補了3000億但是又漲了民眾大概40%你有很多也就是物價指數的提升等等等等但是我們要求的是說台電的財務黑洞要怎麼處理台電的員工是非常非常的辛苦這也是我每一次在委員會或者是在總諮詢我都一直在強調"},{"start":9720.647,"end":9747.444,"text":"但是當人民的錢要出去的時候我們希望看到的是政府的承諾到底這一千億不補了之後還會不會漲價是一年不漲兩年不漲或者是怎麼樣但是從頭到尾我們得不到政府給我們的一個答案跟方向這是第一點那我非常的希望也就是說我一直從頭到尾我就說台電非常非常的重要"},{"start":9748.424,"end":9751.886,"text":"那台積這麼重要我們應該要將他的財務管理他的機制要怎麼去調整還有你的來源你的能源政策要怎麼樣去調整應該要給國人一個非常清楚的一個方向才不會波普再漲價漲價再波普讓人民不知所措這個是我覺得政府應該要給人民一個答案"},{"start":9773.894,"end":9791.69,"text":"跟一個方向那第二個呢也就是發現性的議題因為我們在年初的時候大家在討論民調也顯示出來民眾確實是需要的民調的民意也認為是支持的像在美國在新加坡因為新加坡他們"},{"start":9792.791,"end":9821.558,"text":"也因為這樣子人民在物價指數以及這個調升的時候尤其國際情勢讓人民認為這是有必要的及時雨而且可以刺激整個內需的一個經濟讓人民喘一口氣那我們不知道政府目前的立場到底是怎麼樣所以我特別要提出也就是在民意所希望的也希望能夠得到民眾這個政府的一個"},{"start":9822.478,"end":9833.777,"text":"明確的方向 這個才是我們編列推算最重要的一個精神跟最後的一個目標 謝謝好 現在請邱毅宇委員"},{"start":9837.465,"end":9863.685,"text":"謝謝主席我是不是能夠請教一下主席長因為我剛剛翻遍了我們行政院的提案就這個第三條的部分包括台灣民眾黨他有很清楚條列他的預算匡列哪一個項目他要多少錢哪個項目要多少錢我能不能請教一下主席長就是就我們現有的規劃行政院的規劃我們的這個特別條例裡頭主要匡列的預算內容"},{"start":9864.466,"end":9877.339,"text":"跟金額可不可以简要说明好先等耐斯堡跟邱志伟委员说完以后请主席长回复耐斯堡委员"},{"start":9887.073,"end":9910.468,"text":"謝謝這個我也是再講一遍我覺得今天為什麼提這個特別條例主要還是因應這個川普的這個對等關稅到現在為止其實看起來我們並沒有最後的Final而且川普總統變來變去這個變成一個社會全世界一個很大的變數所以我們覺得說在現在4100億裡面"},{"start":9915.813,"end":9917.597,"text":"這個居然只有變931才因應這個對等關稅啊實在是太少了"},{"start":9922.352,"end":9924.094,"text":"我們覺得可以多編一點啦這個狂人那為什麼這個樣子呢因為這跑出來兩個東西啊一個台電的1000億一個是韌信有關於韌信國防這一部分國防要加2.3%我們都支持啊我們都支持但是不應該放在這裡啦不應該來搶這一塊特別預算的品啦這一塊就是給經濟"},{"start":9947.13,"end":9976.57,"text":"因應對等關稅底下的不要來搶這塊餅要那就提就是按照年度預算或者是你再提一個特別預算我們都支持你們不提我們都可以提所以簡單來講我們希望這個特別預算現在行政院送出來的是兩大塊一大塊就是因應這個要對等關稅的一塊這一塊我們就減少可以增加"},{"start":9977.63,"end":9996.301,"text":"可以增加另外一塊韌性部分包括海巡的國防的這個是另外一塊完全是不同的東西啊你要硬要扯在一起當然勉強可以扯在一起但實在是差很多啦差很多所以我說如果您不提我們提都可以有提一個加強社會經濟韌性的特別條例"},{"start":10001.864,"end":10018.411,"text":"我們再提一個這樣的特別條例裡面來講不只一千五百億加一千億兩千五百億我們可以甚至再增加五百億都可以就看需要在哪裡這是第一點我想補充的第二點我想補充的台電我們已經講夠多次了剛才姚委員講的我都非常同意你只要他還是要漲價他也不承諾不漲價"},{"start":10030.39,"end":10046.027,"text":"這樣你等於是放人家破呀這個撥補一千億也是人民的納稅錢然後你要漲價又直接從人民的身上又給他拿錢啊你說八大工商都希望說不要漲價八大工商都希望你用核電啊你為什麼不用你叫你愛聽愛的來講"},{"start":10050.332,"end":10066.761,"text":"對不對這個東西啊社會各界的聲音我們都要聽但是大家要想今天很清楚的核電一度一塊一你不用你要去用五塊錢六塊錢的再生能源的那部分而且現在已經變成百分之九十幾"},{"start":10068.147,"end":10078.974,"text":"變成我們的店又髒又貴啊這個東西真的禍害全民的健康啦這大家真的為了台灣老百姓的健康著想要好好去思考這個台電"},{"start":10082.265,"end":10108.107,"text":"來講人緣結構如果沒有改變應不用核電的話它就繼續虧下去就一直流行下去啊就當年都要補乾脆你補多一點的如果要就補多一點的啊問題是我們希望它不要漲價這提個這兩個一直換啊選一個啊也都沒有做到我們不得怎麼支持了所以整個來講任性的這一部分"},{"start":10109.248,"end":10122.414,"text":"我們希望另外提一個特別條例或者匯到年度預算這個你們不提我們來提都可以那這個簡單來說的話就是台電的一千億加上任性的原來編的一千五百這個剛好可以補發現金現在物價漲這麼兇給老百姓一點點的補貼啦不然來加電費也好嘛我的發言完畢 謝謝講得非常好現在請邱志偉委員"},{"start":10143.221,"end":10169.241,"text":"謝謝主席因為我中感冒所以才來這邊發言怕影響到雖然我不會咆哮但是難免發言會怕會影響其他同仁所以我在這邊發言等一下大家不要跟過來這個第三條跟主席確認一下這個今天會合法的合法"},{"start":10171.448,"end":10196.355,"text":"那我的發言是合法的你要宣示一下會議詢問合法了你是在委員會的發言在合法基礎下我發出一個很優質的發言來第三條啊第三條行政院提案跟國民黨提案基本上有幾個的差異第一個就普發陷阱第二個就所謂"},{"start":10198.356,"end":10205.465,"text":"強化國主防衛能量跟資通作業環境這幾個重要的差異我在第一次發言的時候就提到"},{"start":10208.439,"end":10234.769,"text":"這個因為川普關稅所引起的經濟不穩定經濟不穩定會影響到社會不穩定社會穩定與否當然很重要當然也牽涉到國家安全國家安全它的定義是很廣義的不是只有國防而已國家安全包括我們內部的穩定包括經濟穩定就業安全也包括國土防衛的基本能力的提升所以我剛才一直強調美國的這個"},{"start":10239.714,"end":10261.534,"text":"這個國土部啊國土部是主要處理內部事務要增他主要的這個工作之一要增強內部的因應能量因應能量我可以說明這就是我可以理解這就是韌性嘛因應的能量越強你就有更好的能力去處理任何的危機跟挑戰"},{"start":10262.699,"end":10277.604,"text":"所以這個一點都沒有任何違和現在發現有限制那我再簡短了再25秒所以我的問題想請教主席長"},{"start":10279.144,"end":10296.951,"text":"你說這個我看到國民黨版本發放現金一萬塊會強化民眾消費韌性擴大內需在一個經濟不穩定的時刻民眾消費習慣他會越積極呢還是會比較保守"},{"start":10298.204,"end":10322.023,"text":"以我個人的 我經濟不穩定的狀況下我當然是錢先存起來啊 以備不值是虛啊它會造成對消費的抑制效果 顛倒把錢又存起來我不知道這個觀點 我不是經濟學家我針對這個疑問 國民黨提的版本說一萬塊可以強化民眾的消費韌性 擴大內需"},{"start":10324.065,"end":10346.386,"text":"我想我這點是充分我是非常質疑會不會有這種效果我還想請這個請這個主計長來做一個綜合性的說明好 謝謝好 現在請李彥秀委員你在下面就好了"},{"start":10350.312,"end":10379.179,"text":"谢谢大家我有提在第三条我希望提一个附带建议附带意见就是我们现在全民健保的基金我们现在全民健保基金其实面临很多财务上的压力为了减轻人民的负担还有包括稳定我们现在民生物价促进产业的升级包括我们现在我们大家都知道我们的医事环境其实面临了很多的挑战包括要想办法留住医事人员还有包括在这一次关税的议题之后"},{"start":10379.659,"end":10406.553,"text":"美国药价的调涨面对于现在国际间的药价其实都有很大的挑战那为了我们未来药品采购的稳定而且我们接下来面临超高龄社会化之后我们的高龄化的社会我们要在照护体系要照顾得更完整也因此我的附带意见提出来未来行政部门在本条例的第五条编列各"},{"start":10407.934,"end":10426.035,"text":"特別預算的時候對於健保基金的預算數不得低於各期預算總數的12%這是我的附帶決議的意見對於健保的穩定性我特別提出來特別預算不得低於各期預算總數的12%"},{"start":10427.637,"end":10456.71,"text":"像今年我们的这个健保的拨补才200多亿其实200多亿大家都知道不足对于现在我们面临的把国人的健康照顾的更完整我觉得恐怕包括留住医事人员恐怕有更多的挑战所以我才提出来附带意见不得低于各期预算总注的12%这个附带决议希望有机会获得大家的支持以上谢谢好谢谢那杨委员需要补充一句"},{"start":10458.547,"end":10479.752,"text":"非常感謝主席 我再補充因為我們這個川普事件開始關稅問題我也謝謝政府在第一時間4月初的時候大家都紛紛到各個產業去聆聽意見那所以從4月4號宣布到4月10號行政院也邀請縣市首長"},{"start":10482.293,"end":10496.751,"text":"来讨论那四月中旬因为在我台中呢我们的手工具机工具机机械类配零组件等等都放手那总统也来部长你也来我们也一直召开跟产业来对谈"},{"start":10497.742,"end":10517.551,"text":"但是在4月21號公告的時候我們一直講在經濟委員會我也跟部長討論過我說如果只有880億絕對是不夠的我們依照他目前所說的關稅那個880億根本達不到他的積分值期所以我們非常的希望支持一定要增加"},{"start":10518.411,"end":10526.295,"text":"但是呢到最後我們增加的是多少是我們看到的這個預算是值4100億裡頭針對我們產業界是880億加50億等於是930億所以我強烈要求這個930億對於我們整個尤其我們中小企業以及產業界它絕對是不夠的所以我認為在我們這一次的特別預算裡頭"},{"start":10542.222,"end":10566.38,"text":"第一個我們的目的就是因為川普這個關稅議題導致全球化貿易戰起來的時候我方要怎麼樣去應對這個是最重要的精神第二個人民的生活非常的重要所以至於這兩點我也希望聽到政府能夠怎麼樣再去調整對我們產業界所需要的經費來協助以上建言好 謝謝現在請主計長回覆"},{"start":10582.503,"end":10604.497,"text":"是首先我要說明一個就是說依照財政紀律法第7條的規定就是說如果立法機關制定法律或修正法律法規等不得增加固定經費額度或比率的一個限制所以如果我們在這裡有明定經費的一個編列的下限或者有相關固定的比率"},{"start":10605.457,"end":10617.043,"text":"這個整個是不利政府整體資源的運用和效率那也跟財政紀律法會有相違背這是第一點那第二個就是所謂發放現金的時機為什麼現在是覺得不是適當的時機因為當初我們EHO特別預算發放現金的時候那主要是因為受到俄烏戰爭相關的一個那個美中戰爭的一個競爭的一個影響所以我們相關的餐飲"},{"start":10634.691,"end":10649.669,"text":"呃旅宿和零售都受到大重大的打擊所以這個部分呢我們必須要來刺激他的一個那個呃一個營業齁那我們目前呢國內市場的內需是非常的穩定非常的穩定尤其那個"},{"start":10650.67,"end":10657.196,"text":"內需市場也是非常的活動活絡所以114年1月和113年全年度的一個批發零售和參與全年度的營業額他都創新高所以以現在來講你不需要再去刺激內需市場的效益你刺激的結果可能會不如預期那所以這個部分這兩個就是說因為兩個是背景不同所以我們這個部分我們就是說沒有說支持說要發放現金"},{"start":10680.174,"end":10691.223,"text":"那至於剛剛談到的就是所謂這個本條例的內容主要的內容第一個就是行政院版的就是4100億那支持產業安定就業930那裡面有提供企業金融支持250然後提升產業競爭力250那協助企業開拓多元市場100那支持勞工安定就業是150"},{"start":10705.055,"end":10733.378,"text":"強化企業金融支持提升產業競爭力是180那另外照顧民生的部分是1670億那裡面強化高度等教育人才培育是200億依住台灣電力股份有限公司1000億那依住全民健康保險是200億那依住勞保是100億那加強照顧弱勢族群提供關懷協助是170億等那加強化國土安全韌性"},{"start":10733.778,"end":10756.352,"text":"是1500億以上好謝謝那因為第三條我們所有委員以及各黨團的版本還有跟行政院版本都還有1億那我們是不是就給予保留好不好好那就保留那我第四條再講沒關係我第四條再講"},{"start":10762.882,"end":10766.924,"text":"好現在繼續第四條請張祺凱委員剛剛主席講到那個普發現金這個這個事情我要提醒以前民進黨主政的時候蘇貞昌也發過普發現金那剛剛主席剛剛提了幾個原因你是反對的不過如果就目前的通膨的這個狀況還有這是"},{"start":10792.093,"end":10812.694,"text":"美國這個高關稅的這個壓力之下這也是為什麼我剛剛一直在強調說要注重財政紀律的這個條文一開始講的是因應國際情勢因國際情勢一開始提的就是高關稅這個衝擊嘛那是因為這個因素所以更需要這時候來普發現金啊它有關聯性嘛"},{"start":10813.851,"end":10841.833,"text":"那為什麼會一直主張說國土安全任性這一塊這1500億它是破壞財政紀律的它在年度預算裡面有嘛你應該回去啊剛管秉林管主委講的也印證了嘛你二月份的時候高關稅這個衝擊端美出現的時候你就提到說你應該去爭取這筆預算啊所以它跟這次的這個特別條例本來就應該是偷鍋的嘛所以才會出現所謂的大偷渡大灌水啊"},{"start":10842.953,"end":10859.981,"text":"所以我做個簡單的一個結論第一個第一個我們強烈支持普發現金那事實上也是因為這次川普高關稅的衝擊所以請大家支持這個普發現金而且他因為就是因為有這樣的關聯所以他適合列到這次的4100億的條例裡面來那也是因為這樣子我們發現"},{"start":10863.642,"end":10885.07,"text":"國土安全的這一塊他應該是在年度預算裡面去的我也提醒大家看一個條文立法院問政看條文預算法第83條明定了有關特別條例編列的第一項是國家緊急設備跟戰爭第二個是經濟有重大的這個變故第三個是重大的災變例如說地震天災這個"},{"start":10886.531,"end":10903.789,"text":"第四是不定期一年的重大的這個國政請問這一次的國土安全任性不就是因為在年度裡面不是在特別預算嗎所以我剛才一直在講就這次裡面如果就要符合預算法要維護我們的財政紀律"},{"start":10906.637,"end":10924.27,"text":"請我們不是不支持這個國家安全請國家安全就是因為他很重要所以回到國家的這個年度預算裡面去好好去去編列甚至我剛剛都提過了你如果認為真的你的錢是不夠的就像管主委剛剛講的嘛你二月份就提出來就提追加預算嘛那沒有的話來得及就到明年去嘛謝謝現在請邱議員委員"},{"start":10930.42,"end":10952.423,"text":"謝謝主席我不曉得為什麼張綺凱委員一直跳針然後一直無限輪迴現在我們講到第5條那你又要再講回來第4條我們現在講第4條你要再講回來前面預算的部分就民眾黨提的第4條的部分尊重我的發言"},{"start":10954.827,"end":10979.595,"text":"你刚讲的东西如果原来的年度预算都有的话那请教一下我们原来的年度预算也有提供企业金融支持所以这条也不应该编提升产业竞争力原来的年度预算也有所以这条也不应该编协助企业多元化拓展市场这个原来的年度计划也有强化农业金融支持原来的年度计划也有所以也不应该编"},{"start":10981.056,"end":11004.318,"text":"健保的挹注原來的年度計畫也有啊也不應該編啊加強照顧弱勢族群原來的年度計畫也有啊也不應該編啊如果依照您的邏輯的話那其實你的提案所有的錢都不應該變除了普發現金這一條以外那你要一直無限輪迴在這裡轉圈圈我也沒辦法因為你的邏輯就是思考就是這麼樣的"},{"start":11006.232,"end":11017.912,"text":"令人無法溝通所以國家安全因應關稅議題因應國際局勢所以他才會有特別條例嘛"},{"start":11019.178,"end":11042.099,"text":"那您剛剛講的這些東西其實在原來的年度預算都有的話那其實年度這個特別條例也可以不用提就是因應特別的局勢所以才會有特別條例的產生因應特別的局勢因應國家的安全防衛上面所以才會有把國土安全要把它納進去這個講了一個早上了你還在這裡無限輪迴好"},{"start":11045.615,"end":11058.771,"text":"我簡單補充一下啦邱炎邱偉沒有跟上進度是吧剛管碧玲管主委已經講了他在二月份的時候就是高關稅衝擊這你說的國際新情勢之前他就提出要求要爭取這筆預算了"},{"start":11060.934,"end":11085.769,"text":"而且在年度預算本來就有 那預算法裡面就是你可以提追加預算嘛 或者回到年度預算嘛這個才是今天的重點 第二個為什麼講普發現金跟這個條文裡面要列在裡面就是因為有國際的新的情勢啊 剛剛講的啊就高關稅這個衝擊以後還有整個通膨嚴重 所以必須給人民一個普發現金啊你當然有前面那個前提 包括勞健保 這些都受到影響才需要去強化嘛"},{"start":11087.062,"end":11110.427,"text":"有一個前提是國際的新情勢那剛剛管治委員講的就是說他這個跟新情勢是沒有關係的那沒有關係到底是要移出去啊我們是支持國安的這個預算的管治委提的我們也支持啊那請用追加預算或推到年度預算好 蔡議員藍白在講普發現金的時候是川普關稅也還沒有開始啊那如果這樣的話也不是你們說的新情勢啊"},{"start":11117.686,"end":11139.486,"text":"就這麼簡單啦所以不要去把行政院的版本然後認為說我們現在應該有哪些地方來強化然後用特別預算來支撐這一些不管是社會韌性、國土安全不要用莫名其妙的邏輯然後說行政院是錯誤的然後我們在這裡是做不合法的討論好 謝謝"},{"start":11142.338,"end":11158.059,"text":"反正大家都有意见所以我们第四条是不是保留好不好现在开始进行第五条第五条邱志伟讲"},{"start":11167.335,"end":11192.014,"text":"大部分的這個特別條例裡面所編列的相關的科目跟預算使用用途大部分的年度預算幾乎也有相關的科目啦它為什麼特別特別的意義是什麼大家花點時間不用花點時間兩秒鐘想一想特別是有必要性極度的必要性跟極度的急迫性"},{"start":11193.727,"end":11222.107,"text":"這不容易做啊 不行不容易做就糟了所以今天必要性 我想這些所留下幾項的預算便利科目 我想都沒有問題國土安提的韌性包括海巡署這個不僅有必要性 而且有急迫性啦可以利用年度預算跟其他的五省啊哇不知道當時 欸 搞不好這個"},{"start":11224.231,"end":11249.267,"text":"在國會優優被你們剪裂或者是凍結 對不對所以這種情況之下大家要有共識這是急迫性的慷慨這是救命之意要克服 要面對經濟動盪經濟不穩定所產生的國家任性國家穩定 社會安全 民生 就業等等"},{"start":11250.686,"end":11275.876,"text":"這一都是急迫性 跟人民生活息息相關你沒有用這條錢 你沒有經費過哇 你就沒辦法去因應 內心沒辦法提升我們相關的這個因應作為跟防禦能力跟調整能力就會弱化所以大家緊記著一個觀念就好這觀念不是什麼大道理 急迫性跟重要性"},{"start":11277.583,"end":11294.922,"text":"所以不是說在二月份發生之後發生之前預算怎麼樣這個每天的時事都在變動每天的時事都在很多的變化我們作為一個國會議員要了解重要性跟急迫性時間到 我知道"},{"start":11296.035,"end":11318.39,"text":"好現在請徐玉珍委員謝謝主席我想剛管主委提出的有關海巡的相關費用是在2月就提出來那其實如果真正有急迫性跟重要性的話為什麼行政院到現在都還不當一回事在處理這樣的事情而且我們可以知道就是說有關的海巡的相關的費用其實除了就是說我們在委員會裡面"},{"start":11319.711,"end":11342.23,"text":"可以追加預算我們也不止一次的提過那到目前為止並沒有提出來所以我想這個部分其實跟這一次我們針對關稅戰的部分應該是可以分開來處理國土安全任性非常重要因為非常重要所以我覺得要另外來處理而不是把它併在一起做這樣的一個處理謝謝"},{"start":11343.988,"end":11359.728,"text":"好那現在大家都已經討論完畢那也有不同的意見那我們是不是就保留好那第五條保留那第六條有沒有委員要發言"},{"start":11361.267,"end":11380.322,"text":"楊瓊瑜委員我還是要很細心的去討論因為我一直得不到行政部門的答案也就是我們編列特別預算的時候我們這個特別預算之所以會編會成案主要的目的是因為我再次重複也就因為川普的這個貿易戰"},{"start":11381.863,"end":11396.735,"text":"所以因此我要再一次的強調 我們整個中部地區 傳統產業 中小企業我們的工廠 尤其機械列別 全部都在我們的中部地區所以我們現在看到的行政院版只有編列880億我們吶喊之後才再加50億 等於是只有930億"},{"start":11403.88,"end":11409.504,"text":"那我高度的質疑 930億根本沒有辦法協助我們的這個產業怎麼樣去度過這個難關所以我仍舊要希望能夠聽到行政部門 我也拜託行政部門針對我們的產業界度過難關的經費要怎麼樣調升我們全力的支持 請一定務必要做到 以上好 邱志偉委員"},{"start":11433.53,"end":11455.66,"text":"現在是進行第六項討論第六條加上第七條、第八條不管是各種版本大概就是到六、七、八、九第六條以後大概是比較屬於技術性、程序性的條文的設計既然前面一到五條"},{"start":11457.2,"end":11484.446,"text":"針對這本條例最重要的內涵它的預算編列的科目都已經保留我覺得後續6到9這些程序性技術性的條文更不可能達成共識你前面主要的預算科目都沒有辦法達成共識要保留的話我建議是不是就6到9也一併都保留"},{"start":11486.533,"end":11514.742,"text":"沒有啦我不是我建議啊不是啊 兩位我是建議啦我是建議啊說6到9 固然重要但是前面1到5還沒有達成共識 已經保留那6到9 我覺得也不可能有討論出什麼具體的結果所以我覺得好啦 你討論啦 我聽你說好啦 我覺得這個"},{"start":11516.34,"end":11517.22,"text":"我會建議說技術性的調穩大家再看看"},{"start":11533.629,"end":11549.084,"text":"還有沒有其他委員發言那我們第六條既然大家都有不同的版本那也沒有辦法達成共識我們是不是就保留好那現在進行第七條第七條請問有沒有委員要發表沒有就那個民眾"},{"start":11560.626,"end":11587.02,"text":"好那第七條因為各黨團的版本以及各委員的版本都有差異那現在我們是不是也把它保留好那現在進行民眾黨的第六條那因為本條只有民眾黨提案那我們是不是也給予保留好那現在進行第八條"},{"start":11589.349,"end":11614.711,"text":"那第八條各位委員跟各黨團的版本與行政院的版本都有差異我們是不是給予保留好那現在進行第九條那因為行政院跟各委員還有各黨團的版本都有差異那我們是不是保留所有版本好"},{"start":11620.369,"end":11634.575,"text":"現在由委員提出附帶決議請一併宣讀委員鄭天才等所提附帶決議針對因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全任性特別條例草案應對美國之關稅變革可能對我國經濟社會各層面之衝擊"},{"start":11638.536,"end":11655.784,"text":"用於照顧民生有健保200億老保100億協助弱勢120億共420億建議為因應當前國家處境及全球貿易環境並兼顧台美關稅美國川普總統拋出MFN要價等議題健保基金所獲得的"},{"start":11657.164,"end":11677.435,"text":"拨补预算中优先用于增进我国药品供应韧性一促进国内药品制造能力提升药品原物料自主比例二加强国内必需药品的投入资源及储备能力三强化国内药品研发与制制并应制定每年预算至少10亿元"},{"start":11678.752,"end":11695.41,"text":"用於鼓勵此目標發展是積極爭取全球研發新藥同步在台實施臨床試驗鼓勵CDMO原開發廠新藥生產增進全球研發新藥對台灣民眾的可敬信"},{"start":11696.67,"end":11719.652,"text":"委員李燕秀等所提附帶決議本次修法為舒緩全民健康保險基金財務壓力減輕人民負擔穩定民生物價與國家經濟促進產業升級轉型而課與行政部門編列預算挹注健保基金故未以健保基金驅動永續與韌性支照護網路行政部門應與本條例第五條編列各期"},{"start":11720.373,"end":11739.697,"text":"特別預算時 預註健保基金之預算數不得低於各期預算總數之12%宣讀完畢請問同仁附帶決議第一案通過有無意見沒有意見那我們就通過現在進行第二案"},{"start":11744.138,"end":11769.355,"text":"第二案大家對於附帶決議第二案通過有無異議好那我們保留第二案保留是不是好那我們就保留附帶決議全部保留啦因為你剛剛本文全部保留啦保留啦好那就是兩案都保留"},{"start":11771.182,"end":11778.169,"text":"好 附帶決議兩案我們現在保留請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤沒有錯誤那我們議事錄確定"},{"start":11787.396,"end":11787.737,"text":"請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":11805.08,"end":11820.667,"text":"好那現在本日所列的因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全任性特別條例審查完據拟據審查報告提報院會討論請問需不需交由黨團協商"},{"start":11824.585,"end":11845.067,"text":"好那就交黨團協商院會討論時有本席說明審查過通過的條次條文引述條文部分文字及相關法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理本日議程處理完畢謝謝大家散會"}]}},{"id":"16690","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16690","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685c04fde1d52825d89f37b898cdd86ce78a12e9ca99aa835c0fbfea1b72ac9498b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-05-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-05-21","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-05-21T08:31:40+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-21T14:06:00+08:00","duration":20060,"影片長度":"05:34:20","委員發言時間":"08:31:40 - 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我們現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年5月14日星期三9時至12時30分5月15日星期四9時至13時35分地點群前樓801會議室"},{"start":1755.951,"end":1782.243,"text":"出席委員陳委員招資等15人列席委員林委員得福等18人列席官員5月14日環境部部長彭啟明等相關人員5月15日勞動部部長洪森翰等相關人員主席劉兆吉委員建國5月14日報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請環境部部長經濟部勞動部及教育部就我國推動綠色轉型政策"},{"start":1783.624,"end":1803.582,"text":"相關人才培育發展與產業政策規劃進行專題報告並被質詢。邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、勞動部、經濟部、農業部及教育部就純福及多福玩機物質管理行動計畫及環境荷爾蒙管理計畫之毒化物相關管理情形進行專題報告並被質詢。"},{"start":1806.365,"end":1835.475,"text":"本日會議專題報告綜合詢答由環境部部長報告後委員陳昭茲等17人提出質詢軍經環境部部長衛生福利部食品藥物管理署署長江志剛經濟部能源署副組長鄭如敏經濟部產業發展署副署長鄒雨欣勞動部勞動力發展署主任秘書師署會計個相關主管等即席答覆委員廖偉祥所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報決定一報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":1836.175,"end":1847.362,"text":"二委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定5月15日報告事項處理勞動部韓衛114年度中央政府總預算決議分別檢送該部主管預算凍結報告案59案"},{"start":1855.247,"end":1870.776,"text":"決定一均同意動之並提報院會二第二案通過附帶決議一項討論事項處理或審查勞動部行為一百一十四年度中央政府總預算決議分別檢送該部主管預算凍結報告案十七案"},{"start":1871.536,"end":1900.459,"text":"本日會議由勞動部部長報告後委員陳昭志等13人提出質詢均經勞動部部長及各相關主管等即席答覆決議一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內與書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定三均同意動之並提報院會宣讀完畢請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或遺落之處"},{"start":1903.035,"end":1929.117,"text":"沒有 我們議事錄確定那本日會議的議程邀請衛生福利部教育部就性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為進行專題報告並備執行那我們現在介紹在場的委員及列席官員第一位林業群委員辛苦了陳超之委員"},{"start":1931.972,"end":1947.019,"text":"那我們請任官員 衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀 歡迎 歡迎保護司司長張秀燕 抱抱我一個啦社會救助及社工司司長蘇昭如"},{"start":1949.727,"end":1975.002,"text":"心理健康師代理師長鄭淑欣歡迎醫事師檢論記證李念慈歡迎社家署副署長詹美美副署醫療及社會福利機構管理委員會副執行長王育偉歡迎食藥署檢論記證林欣慧"},{"start":1978.491,"end":2005.6,"text":"好 歡迎疾管署檢任計政張雅芝教育部人事處處長林建章好 歡迎高教師專門委員賴冠偉好 歡迎學生事務及特殊教育師專門委員許惠卿國民及學前教育署專門委員王怡婷"},{"start":2006.513,"end":2015.102,"text":"好 歡迎 歡迎台大醫院院長吳明賢歡迎主任譚傑芝好 謝謝"},{"start":2027.771,"end":2044.446,"text":"我們今天的這個的題目我們是就事論述對事不對人我們希望能精進改善所以做專題報告並來質詢希望會越做越好那繼續我們請衛部林靜儀政府次長報告"},{"start":2053.673,"end":2073.972,"text":"好 召會長主席 各位委員 女士 先生今天大院第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開全體委員會議本部呈邀列席報告 宣改榮幸自救性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為提出專案報告 請各位委員不吝"},{"start":2074.552,"end":2098.499,"text":"会与指教在性骚扰防治的部分为加强性骚扰防治行政院在2023年7月13日通过性平三法修正草案并在2023年8月16日经总统公布施行为了协助直辖县市政府提升性骚扰防治服务量能本部已经拟定卫生福利部推动性骚扰防治法中长程个案计划并且经行政院核定"},{"start":2099.379,"end":2122.732,"text":"本部自2024年起合定強化直轄縣市政府推動性騷擾防治方案其中去年總共審議完成3130件申訴調查案件並且提供1291名被害人相關服務為根據推動業務執行今年我們總共合定補助65名人力跟業務費總共6839萬1840元"},{"start":2126.934,"end":2142.527,"text":"本部強化性騷擾防治之精進作為包括推動社會大眾性騷擾防治教育宣導強化並落實場所主人性騷擾防治責任含班性騷擾調查人員培訓及調查專業人才資料庫建制要點"},{"start":2143.267,"end":2163.355,"text":"以及办理性骚扰调查专业人员培训以增进申诉案件的审议品质落实被害人权益维护此外更需定期召开性骚扰防制业务联系会议咨询会议检视各直辖市县市政府性骚扰人力禁用经费执行及审议会办情形以精进业务的推动"},{"start":2165.649,"end":2181.042,"text":"在外聘督導的部分,社會工作督導是一個協助社會工作者專業成長與發展的歷程,透過教育、行政跟知識三大功能來進行指揮、協調、支持第一線社工提升服務品質。"},{"start":2182.303,"end":2202.969,"text":"當公司部門所提供的服務有跨專業需求或內部本身沒有設置專職督導人員的人力的時候則會聘請外部專家學者擔任外聘督導以強化專業支持與服務品質近年因為家庭面臨議題比較趨向多元複雜例如家庭衝突精神疾病物質濫用貧窮"},{"start":2204.489,"end":2230.066,"text":"失業家庭暴力兒童虐待自殺防治等議題那社工要處理多元複雜的家庭議題所屬的機關機構團體他應該要提供第一線社工服務所需要的訓練督導跟支持那各社會福利機各社會福利團體或機構如果因為他的個別需求執行政府委託服務或補助計劃時可自行運用"},{"start":2231.187,"end":2258.308,"text":"外聘督導並透過個別督導團體督導的方式提供社工支持及協助指導第一線的社工那另外本部推動社會工作督導支持及培力計畫提供禁用社工人員在6人以下且未設專職社工督導的社會福利機構聘用外部督導提供穩定的社會工作督導資源擴大社工人員接受督導的涵蓋率"},{"start":2259.188,"end":2273.64,"text":"後職在地社工人員專業能力本部從大院各委員指教及監督在此盡致謝誠並期望各位委員繼續給予支持以上 謝謝好 謝謝林次長我們繼續請教育部林處長報告"},{"start":2291.341,"end":2310.219,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士今天教育部受邀緊救性騷擾防治進行報告並聆聽各位委員、女士先生的一個意見深感榮幸以下報告敬請各位委員及先進指導與支持首先教育部在工作場域的性騷擾防治部分"},{"start":2310.959,"end":2335.071,"text":"依照性別平等工作法第13條的規定僱主應該採取適當的措施以防制性騷擾的發生本部也已經依照規定辦理性別平等工作法及性騷擾防治法修正重點職場性別平等及性騷擾防治及案例教學等這些的一個教育訓練並且透過製作文宣及利用各"},{"start":2335.891,"end":2362.298,"text":"各種場合集會來進行專題演講及每月用電子郵件的一個方式來向本部同仁宣導本部的性騷擾防治一個政策此外在落實性騷擾防治保護被害人權益本部也已經依照112年修正後的性別平等工作法及相關執法的一個規定研修本部及所屬各機關各學校的性騷擾防治措施或規範"},{"start":2363.678,"end":2378.073,"text":"另外為了因應校園現場的實務需求我們也訂定了各級學校非屬性別平等教育法所定性騷擾事件的申訴及處理的流程說明來提供各學校依照這樣的指引辦理"},{"start":2382.526,"end":2407.068,"text":"其次在校園性騷擾的防治部分本部也依照《性別平等教育法》落實性別平等教育課程教學及校園性別事件防治教育宣導辦理教育訓練提升通報資能培訓事件調查專業人才落實當事人輔導及行為人防治教育督導落實不適任教師還有學校人員的通報管制等等"},{"start":2407.808,"end":2435.846,"text":"對於通報事件的一個處理情形我們也已經建置回報系統管理功能來提供各級主管機關來具以督導所屬的一個學校此外本部在性別平等教育白皮書2.0及12年國民基本教育課程綱要裡面規範引導各級學校在政策規劃學習環境與資源課程教材與教學校園性別事件的防治等等"},{"start":2436.967,"end":2453.073,"text":"來整體推動性別平等教育消除性別歧視保障學生的受教權維護人格的尊嚴防止校園性別事件的發生落實建制性別友善安全的一個學習環境以上報告敬請各位委員及先進與指教"},{"start":2462.947,"end":2490.998,"text":"有關本市會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報我們現在開始詢答做以下宣告本委員會詢答時間8分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如果有書面質詢請於上位前提出預期不受理我們暫定在10點30分左右休息言則上11點半處理臨時提案11點截止收案"},{"start":2492.365,"end":2508.004,"text":"現在開始我們第一位林業勤委員發言主席麻煩我們的社家屬還有社工師"},{"start":2521.007,"end":2547.762,"text":"兩位早那今天我想針對特殊安置的那個制度缺陷跟我們的外屏督導的責任到底要怎麼去界定首先來看就大家一直很關心的凱凱案我們是不是以這個案子來說明就是新北市惡富聯盟跟臺北市各自要負的責任是什麼來凸顯這個制度上的一些問題點為什麼這樣講呢孩子本來住在新北市那出了問題"},{"start":2548.817,"end":2578.086,"text":"那本來就應該由新北市政府開案處理因為他是脆弱家庭那而且一直要處理到孩子呢如果他要收出養的話他要等到出養為止那過程當中呢新北市政府呢把孩子交給兒福聯盟去找保姆安置那兒福聯盟呢再度的就是把孩子就去交給流性保姆那孩子交給保姆之後兒盟照理來講要做兩件事情一個是回報新北市政府而且甚至這個案子"},{"start":2579.392,"end":2583.417,"text":"還是事實上是脆弱家庭的話是在我們的跨峽安置那邊"},{"start":2584.278,"end":2612.897,"text":"很明确的很明显的就还是在新北市政府的手头上那二是应该要通知负责访视的居家服务中心那新北市政府如果接到回报的话确定孩子在流行保姆家的话应该按照规定他是要去访视因为案子还是在他手上那居家托育服务中心接到通知之后呢一个月内按照规定一个月内呢要进行第一次的访视也就是收托新收托九月"},{"start":2613.763,"end":2625.744,"text":"1號的話那他在9月底之前一定要訪視那而後按照法規就是每三個月要訪視一次那兒盟呢那就是按照他自己對這個個案的負責要看去"},{"start":2626.567,"end":2628.607,"text":"三方的這個合作其實應該要加強"},{"start":2654.873,"end":2663.119,"text":"是我有看到你們講有提到所謂一組折多協力所以那個組折看起來事實上是"},{"start":2663.581,"end":2689.25,"text":"如果按照規定的話事實上是新北市那我們就再來看依據當時110年的中央鎖定的跨峽區兒少保護處理原則這屬於從新北市跨區到安置到台北市的案例它是非常典型的從新北要跨峽到台北市那就應該去按照跨峽區兒少保護處理原則這處理原則有提到收出養家庭"},{"start":2689.85,"end":2715.995,"text":"所以想問副市長依照這個原則的話如果新北市通知台北市照顧孩子的責任我已經轉過去了那後續的追蹤訪視責任就應該由台北市負責可是如果沒有通知的話是不是這個新北市就是要繼續的去負責那還是說因為孩子被安置在台北市新北市政府一定要通報到台北市而且要通報後兩個縣市都要訪視"},{"start":2719.467,"end":2743.965,"text":"我想這個凱凱案他當初進案的時候其實是退加了所以我們好像在這個新北跟台北的處理裡面其實他並沒有適用這個兒少保護的這個個案的權責分工那依照我們退加的這個分工的原則因為這個個案當時在新北市他退加他並沒有結案所以我們退加的處理原則是新北市如果沒有結案他應該要繼續"},{"start":2745.046,"end":2772.12,"text":"所以如果沒有結案的話我看到這跨峽這個安置的處理原則裡面很清楚的講說你就是受理轉轄的縣市要回復同意轉接也就是說台北市說我同意那同意後一個月就要完成個案轉轄的交接權可是看起來事實上還是掛在新北市嘛如果一組折多協力的話照理來講"},{"start":2773.167,"end":2798.275,"text":"新北市這個案子還是他所以看起來是還是要去訪視的那第二個問題就是說今天兒童為什麼會選擇流性保母來安置那針對安置保母的這部分中央當時也有所謂的運用居托人員照顧家外安置兒童的處理原則有非常明確的去定了一個是他的第四點很清楚的在"},{"start":2799.195,"end":2827.375,"text":"第三小項清楚的講說依居家是托育服務提供者登記及管理辦法仿視輔導情形良好的仿視輔導情形良好不過呢這個劉彩萱呢她事實上是7月16取得我們的托育人員的技術證然後11月10號呢取得那個居家登記證那在2023年的4月17她就收拓第一個孩子那"},{"start":2828.564,"end":2849.484,"text":"第二個孩子5月4號來所以他基本上還沒有經過訪視輔導2號因為5月16第一次訪視他人生當中接受的第一次訪視在5月16表示他從來都沒有接受過訪視輔導2號那如果按照剛才副署長講的那個概念上"},{"start":2850.52,"end":2874.952,"text":"就是說今天這個孩子如果還在新北市即便安置是翠家的話是不是應該要運用要用這個原則就運用居家托育人員照顧家外安置兒童的處理原則所以應該要按照這個規定來做那可看起來兒童事實上是找一個沒有經驗的保姆來安置翠家的兒童這樣的處置有沒有過時"},{"start":2877.315,"end":2906.004,"text":"我想當初我們應該是在收出養的業務當中的時候其實對於這個安置的個案大概有兩種一種是就是安置在機構那另外一種是我們收出養的單位他自己去找保姆來做一些安置那這件事情我想應該是我們也是在檢討當中其實有發現說其實安置的這件事情其實他應該是要像這樣子他安置到一個"},{"start":2906.704,"end":2924.771,"text":"從來沒有被仿似不到從來也是沒有接過小孩而且他才幾個月前才接他人生的4月17才接他人生第一個小孩都不知道他到底帶孩子的狀況是什麼你覺得誰應該去追究這個惡夢的責任是新北市政府台北市政府還是社交所"},{"start":2926.518,"end":2947.654,"text":"我覺得應該是我們三方都應該是要負擔一些責任因為第一個我剛有提到說我們的居安置的這個個案其實不應該是讓去收出養的這個單位自己去找所以這裡我們也做了一些修正第二個是新北市他其實是沒有結案我覺得他在轉這個個案的時候其實也應該要注意到而某找到的這個保姆是不是適合的"},{"start":2952.037,"end":2964.745,"text":"那第三個是兒盟他既然是身為我們收出場的這個案子的單位我覺得他在找這個保姆的時候也應該要遵守我們這樣的規定那我再來理清一個問題就兒盟送托"},{"start":2967.53,"end":2993.692,"text":"這邊是你們的經濟報告裡面寫的就社福中心沒有結案就新北市社福中心是沒有結案的那可是兒母在10月24號的時候有回報說他第二次去訪視了去訪視保姆然後可是社福中心呢呃溯英社福中心事實上是沒有任何記錄讓人家公查說他確實兒母有回報他那我不知道這中間到底出了什麼問題兒母說我有告訴你那呃溯英社福中心這邊沒有任何記錄也沒有後"},{"start":2995.533,"end":3012.546,"text":"後期的作為可是如果我們按照剛剛跨峽的這種制度來看的話也想救教的是說今天新北市讓兒盟把孩子放到台北市那也沒有去跟台北市對焦可是孩子就是已經安置到台北市了那"},{"start":3013.346,"end":3034.902,"text":"新北市台北市社福中心就是都知道嗎就是我孩子已經放到你台北市了因為今天如果兒盟有回報啊回報說我已經放到台北市那為什麼新北市沒有跟台北市為什麼也沒有作為說社福中心我文山社福中心我要把孩子接起來因為跨峽的按照法規是要這樣做的可是雙方好像一個先講沒結案又說沒有"},{"start":3035.823,"end":3055.342,"text":"沒有記錄 可是額蒙說他有回報10月24號他第二次訪視的時候有回報所以想問這樣子的狀況我覺得副座是不是可以解釋一下一個本來是主責的他沒有去告訴對方"},{"start":3057.934,"end":3073.831,"text":"黨的兒盟有去告訴了有時候我有去告訴新北市那新北市有沒有要去跟台北市真的正式做交接台北市已經知道自己孩子來著那台北市文山社福中心是不是應該要去啟動"},{"start":3076.33,"end":3101.631,"text":"這件事情也是我們就是在這個案子之後有做檢討就是三方應該要合作那我想也謝謝委員當時也給我們很多的意見我們也製作了一些相關的文件那回到這個事件當時其實應該現在我問的比較仔細就跨區安置誰應該去通報台北市政府該負責通報的單位有通報嗎是兒盟呢還是事實上是新北"},{"start":3104.948,"end":3127.846,"text":"應該這樣講就是說我們如果是我覺得大家都有一些責任譬如說新北的這個社福中心他其實把孩子因為交給兒母出養所以兒母安置到把孩子安置到哪個家庭裡面哪個保母家他應該要知道因為剛剛有提到他沒有結案所以他也應該是我們其實跨峽的這個社福的單位應該要彼此合作"},{"start":3128.426,"end":3148.615,"text":"這是我們中央一再強調的因為地方是要協助我們做執行我們也強調大家資訊是需要分享的所以新北應該要告訴台北市的社福中心這是第一個那第二個我們收出養的這個耳蒙的單位他既然是我們收出養剛剛有提到我們其實還是希望即使是出養的兒童其實還是要維持一些親情"},{"start":3149.515,"end":3163.96,"text":"跟家庭的親情的這個關係所以他也必須要再告訴我們的這兩個社會中心他有做銜接這個也是我們在凱恩事件之後強力的要求地方政府要配合三方必須要資訊的分享再請教是"},{"start":3165.701,"end":3178.416,"text":"在2023年的12月24號孩子走了可是到隔年3月13號媒體3月11號曝光之後呢台北市才開始公告姓名跟廢紙登記證書"},{"start":3180.258,"end":3201.29,"text":"所以本席懷疑如果媒體沒有爆料的話台北市政府是不是就不處罰人了所以想問這件事情台北市政府三個月後才做行政處分可見台北市政府有一定的責任不然這就是一個無效的行政處分了所以想問台北市政府對於保姆所在地的主管機關接受通報後應該要做什麼"},{"start":3203.691,"end":3230.429,"text":"接受通報後 依照我們的流程 他其實就是要展開調查那對 可是三個月後才做處分 這有沒有屬實這件事情我們大概有問過台北市 他主要考量當時他認為是已經有司法在處理了行政調查跟司法本來就是分開 其實是應該是可以分開的那台北市政府呢 處罰姊姊 流行保姆姊姊 可是不處罰妹妹這樣子 對嗎"},{"start":3233.092,"end":3259.803,"text":"這件事情我們可能要來問台北市比較會清楚他們調查的細節所以我認為應該以人追案所在先是一案到底這也是後來我提出來之後我想市家署也按照這個在走以後真的孩子不是讓人家責任劃分不清楚的時候結果孩子就被在一個沒有人監管的狀況"},{"start":3260.745,"end":3285.989,"text":"而且我認為特殊需求安置的孩子就是這種特殊安置的孩子應該強度上要不一樣不能放在一般仿式的保姆的所謂這種拘托中心它只是一般仿式的話事實上是孩子父母會接回去的家庭來安置事實上實屬不太恰當我也覺得接下來分級這一塊我覺得社交署要去努力那接下來就想問那個師長這邊"},{"start":3290.674,"end":3319.874,"text":"想問外賓督導因為這是我去找你們的所謂的補助辦法裡面因為過去國外比較沒有這些東西甚至台灣事實上這個東西又沒有講清楚那這邊講的是補助原則裡面特別去提的是如果是團多的話那一對多所以就特定定主題跟任務的督導關係發揮團體的互助而且是經驗分享這一塊所以本來就所謂的內督"},{"start":3320.554,"end":3346.693,"text":"所以國外的話大概他們稱的事實上是不會叫做外聘督導那事實上是外部的專家學者可是我們卻把這兩個督導這詞本來社工一直用這詞通常過去在搶的事實上是內部可是內部內聘督導的話叫做主管外聘督導的話通常如果以商業界來看的話事實上是顧問所以我們看社工督導的專業平台也特別提說"},{"start":3347.435,"end":3373.269,"text":"他是聘請機構外的專家學者進行督導其餘被督導者無階層管理的一個關係通常提供的是教育跟支持的功能那因為沒有階層管理關係也不是機構內的督導比較難有一些行政功能所以這是因為政府過去事實上是政府的民間方案聘請外部專家指導所以這邊"},{"start":3374.932,"end":3391.458,"text":"也是社工專協提出來的他們在內部的手冊裡面所以想問一下外督這個機制是因政府採購制度而設計的目的在這個顧問的一種角色去支持社工確保服務品質是這樣嗎"},{"start":3393.11,"end":3412.01,"text":"跟委員報告我想社會工作督導他最主要的功能包括了教育支持跟行政三個就是角色那有一些組織他可能規模比較小所以他們有專責的一個督導所以他才在外向外來聘請這個督導來協助他是最主要的原因"},{"start":3412.43,"end":3433.722,"text":"那就就這三個功能而言當然是外部來的他可能是部分的時間來到這個機構那他也不是這個機構的職員所以可能他在行政的角色上會比較淡一點點那但是他還是具有教育就指導跟這個支持這樣一個功能那具體來說外部督導職務規定有在哪邊有規定嗎"},{"start":3436.008,"end":3458.625,"text":"因為當初是補助的原則裡面只是非常鬆的去講了一些東西對 就是我們在補助的那個規定裡面有提到到底什麼樣的人可以來擔任督導他要發揮的功能是什麼還有一些經費補助的一個項目那另外我們各自的福利的法規或是計畫裡面可能有提到也可以藉由督導這樣的一個功能來協助服務品質的一個確保那當然他對督導的一些"},{"start":3463.589,"end":3475.227,"text":"資格啦或是規定啊 次數等等也會有一些相關的規範所以可不可以依照國外的經驗來去思考這件事情那到底"},{"start":3475.888,"end":3504.381,"text":"不管假設未來你們要持續去進行就是是不是要訂定相關的契約來把職責畫明清楚當然你們也可以拿我的遭遇來做範本不管認為我是對是錯可是去把制度的漏洞補上然後把這整套的制度完成否則的話如果內都外都外界的人分不清楚然後"},{"start":3505.12,"end":3521.146,"text":"用一個內都的要做的角色去框架在外都的角色裡面那也實屬不妥所以是不是把內都外都講清楚說明白內都本來就是主管外都事實上是外部的專家學者一年可能來一次"},{"start":3522.13,"end":3545.267,"text":"到六次都有可能 不一定 那機構隨時他們去邀所以我想問一下 這樣的制度上要補上的話這種精進制度要花多少時間 請問一下市長初步我們是這樣子想 就是在社工的服務裡面督導的功能的確非常的重要那目前在社工的法規裡面 是的確沒有比較不清楚"},{"start":3545.607,"end":3571.836,"text":"所以我們現在也正在研議說是不是要來研定一個社會工作推動的一些作業的一個要點會把督導一個功能或是基本的一些運作的一個機制我們想要在裡面做一個擬定這是第一個general的整個社工的制度那再來各自的福利法規跟計劃裡面也可以在這邊擬定因為每一個業務的一個需求或許有它的特殊性那是不是可以朝這兩個方向都可以來進行"},{"start":3572.076,"end":3583.054,"text":"所以最後我希望你們明確訂定外都制度跟整個管理上的辦法來釐清職責跟角色定位否則如果依照這樣子"},{"start":3584.208,"end":3601.058,"text":"不清楚的話我想未來沒有人敢去擔負這樣的一個角色然後釐清三方的就簽訂三方的契約就督導者機構工作者要明確那個職責所在那麻煩你們大概禁訴定下來我不知道給兩個月時間夠嗎還是給一個月"},{"start":3603.671,"end":3617.997,"text":"委員我們是不是再來研議一下,因為如果要訂整體的要點是需要一些作業的一個時間那看看其他相關的一些業務的領域,因為我們要跟其他市屬來做一些討論討論麻煩金樹,好謝謝謝謝李委員,今天用了20分鐘讓你好好的講清楚"},{"start":3625.49,"end":3653.69,"text":"我覺得這個頭銜名稱都有問題到處都講督導搞不清楚什麼叫督導連我都搞不太清楚另外一個通報系統應該也要大家都知道醫界的這個通報是不錯的我們醫療方面這個社工這一塊是不是要模仿一下我們醫界不然的話就很容易漏接掉真的會漏接好 謝謝 謝謝市長那接續我們請陳昭志委員質詢"},{"start":3660.155,"end":3674.349,"text":"質詢前我要先感謝昭偉大家都很關心凱凱案跟醫院性騷案但是我知道有人向您關說希望把這個題目檢討外聘督導制度拿掉但是您挺住了人情壓力仍然把這個題目留在議程裡再次謝謝昭偉有請次長"},{"start":3685.253,"end":3689.055,"text":"次長好我想先請教社會工作督導的職責我參考了衛福部社會工作督導支持及培力計畫的內容第一項第一頁就提到剛剛也報告了督導具有教育支持及行政三種功能透過定期和持續的督導可以傳授社工專業服務的知識跟技術確保對案主服務的品質"},{"start":3712.489,"end":3729.179,"text":"那除此之外 督導也是組織內部第一層管理者所以從衛福部的定義來看 督導不是一個被動的角色他是一個主動來增進社工服務能力的角色 對嗎 次長對 如果是單位內部自己的本身品質的督導"},{"start":3731.28,"end":3757.156,"text":"在衛福部的外聘督導計畫中也提到目前實務運作上規模小的社福機構只有一名社工人員產生缺乏督導支持的困境所以衛福部就推出了這個外聘督導的目的是要建置經常性的穩定的社工督導資源及制度要擴大社工人員接受督導的涵蓋率"},{"start":3757.876,"end":3771.769,"text":"也就是說外聘督導雖然不像內部督導是第一層的管理者但是外聘督導的功能其實很類似內部督導的也是要藉由置身長期的專業經驗來傳授機構內部社工人員專業服務的知識跟技術那我現在要請問次長我看完整個衛福部的計畫"},{"start":3780.257,"end":3794.227,"text":"衛福部要形塑的這個外部督導外聘督導是要在一定的程度去替代機構的內部督導是有很大的責任必須要去主動了解機構社工協助個案的狀況是嗎次長"},{"start":3796.288,"end":3817.138,"text":"呃先跟委員報告就是說我們的這個計畫是協助6人以下的機構就是他本身整個機構的體制不足以不足以自己內部聘他自己應該有的督導對他自己內部沒有辦法聘 聘不出來那我們讓他可以用外督但是我們還是希望大家內部可以有一個比較合理本身制度內的督導這個事情就是這個樣子"},{"start":3821.24,"end":3839.945,"text":"按照您的說法如果這個外聘督導沒有一定的程度責任不需要去主動了解只要在那邊等人家問問我們沒有說外聘督導不用主動了解那有時候社工沒問題不表示沒問題嘛所以這個外聘督導這樣的情況下不就是虛設嗎根本就不具備你們計畫上自己講的這幾個功能啊"},{"start":3841.766,"end":3858.049,"text":"我們有因為這個事實上是去協助規模小然後他可能組織運作上面業務單純的機構我們讓他可以用外督來補強可是如果本身有一定制度而且他本身內部已經成員上面都穩定的情況之下他內部一定要有他該有的"},{"start":3859.19,"end":3874.716,"text":"督導計畫上所寫的功能兩位社工系教授徐雅惠跟張英正他們在他們的一個研究提到他們研究題目叫風險管理下的社會工作督導他提到說督導的專業功能就是協助社工發展專業技術跟才能那強化服務的責任的責任與表現以確保案主從頭到尾都回到這個案主就是福祉要受到保障"},{"start":3885.58,"end":3910.283,"text":"那這個研究有提到多數的內部督導仍然以團體的方式固定的進行那個別的方式有定期跟不定期的都有並沒有非常固定的時間或特定的內容那很多人表示在這個研究中他表示他的方法是隨時督導不定期督導有需要時隨時來可以問我的方式為什麼呢因為他們說太忙了"},{"start":3911.043,"end":3935.708,"text":"包括委員可是您舉的這個他講的事實上就是各縣市政府內部本身的保護性社工督導他不是外督請你部長我必須次長我必須說如果外部督導也跟社工的方式一樣你有問題再來問我那我覺得這樣的制度都失去了這個研究講的是內督喔這個外聘督導制度計畫的目的所以次長你認為無論是內部或外部的督導"},{"start":3936.388,"end":3955.939,"text":"那真的都可以等社工是有問題再來問我或是他不問你就不用主動去協助社工有什麼問題嗎所以我們才很希望說原來在制度跟機構內部他要建立他自己內部穩定的督導系統那自己內部的督導系統的職權因為他基本上是被聘僱他有指揮監督的權利"},{"start":3957.18,"end":3977.649,"text":"獨島的制度 獨島的身份不一樣我要引用兒少專家林月琼委員在2009年發表的碩士論文的其中一段話他說建立獨島制度透過定期的獨島會會議來強化專業實務技能並且能夠充分的獲得情感的支持提供紓壓團體或心理諮商的機制"},{"start":3980.67,"end":4000.563,"text":"讓工作人員的情緒疏解有暢通的管道來減緩工作的壓力所以綜合以上我談的這些點我覺得大家都能夠理解督導這個角色在社工的實務運作上其實是非常吃重的絕對不是領了錢就閃人的一個工作"},{"start":4002.633,"end":4009.44,"text":"我想我們很多的督導願意擔任督導這個工作就絕對是有他的熱忱我們來參考營業群委員之前的聲明他說自己是外聘督導僅根據機構的需求被動協助並不涉及機構的內部營運跟管理事務我認為這個說法對外部督導的值得定義是有出入的"},{"start":4026.275,"end":4053.072,"text":"社會大眾聽到了一定有很多的滿腦子的問號而我個人是完全沒辦法接受這樣的說法2009年的林月琴督導認為督導可以強化實務技能但2025年的林月琴立委卻覺得督導只是負責被動的回答問題這個就是換了位置就換了腦袋嗎社工師如果沒有盡責去發現楷開的遭遇"},{"start":4054.192,"end":4074.085,"text":"那甚至企圖掩瞞這個事實就是當然是一個大錯誤但是甚至社工師背後負責監督管理給予協助的督導難道沒有責任嗎那我要談的是外聘督導就是還是一樣還是資深有經驗的社工師前輩來輔導機構那就是社安網的最後一道防線"},{"start":4079.008,"end":4104.479,"text":"委員我同意你講這是最後一道所以他原先制度內部的督導他應該要完成他應該有的職責然後如果這邊不行 不足我們才會補強外部的督導來做補強市長請讓我來說明就是說如果林月琴委員可以多方的兼職出事了就一句她只接受被動的這個諮詢來切割這些經驗不足的機構難怪社安網的漏洞永遠補不起來啊"},{"start":4105.799,"end":4120.668,"text":"好 次長來請你看這張圖根據台北市居家托育服務中心托育人身心狀況處遇的流程當托育人也就是保姆身心出狀況時外聘督導可以評估是否要通報社會局請問次長"},{"start":4121.768,"end":4137.636,"text":"凱凱案的外聘督導有沒有看過這個社工的訪視記錄如果他看了就會知道凱凱受傷而且神情有異樣那就有進一步機會去探討看就保姆到底有沒有問題"},{"start":4138.536,"end":4160.571,"text":"那如果他沒看過他就是嚴重的失職啊為什麼呢因為台北市社會局說外聘督導的工作包含看訪視記錄次長凱凱案的外聘督導也就是林月琴委員有沒有看過社工寫的訪視記錄我只要知道他有沒有看過社工訪視記錄呢"},{"start":4161.772,"end":4174.382,"text":"我有一種說明一下因為台北市的居托中心他本身內部他有社工他有保姆他有訪視輔導員訪視輔導員在上面還有內部督導內部督導這邊他在執行業務上面他有專業資能的需求他會從外部這邊再來補強那我想顯然他沒看過了那沒看過我覺得他是他工作之一啊那是太忙了嗎內部督導的職責我要不要先處理"},{"start":4191.094,"end":4216.043,"text":"訪視報告都不看嗎那外聘督導就當顧問啦外聘督導其實真的有一部分是外聘督導是補強原來內部制度社工包含他的知識他的支持以及他原來內部督導之外的部分好謝謝次長次長我現在在談利益迴避問題過去30年我被健保署聘為藥品專家委員但是為了釐清是否有利益衝突需要迴避的問題"},{"start":4216.923,"end":4245.096,"text":"我在2024年2月就職立委之後我第一次出席專家會議時我就公開在會議上聲明因為我現在的身份是黨推派的不分區立委有監督行政機關的責任這樣的身份是否適宜繼續擔任專家委還請健保署及衛福部能依現行法律制度幫忙釐清確認如果不適宜請告訴我以便進行後續的程序等等當時我還要求列入會議紀錄"},{"start":4246.357,"end":4274.936,"text":"在場的是一位參議代學勇參議他說知悉然後當天他也請我先繼續開會我要說的是我從不眷戀任何職務即便專家諮詢這個角色其實沒有決策權但是有任何問題我隨時可以離開就像立法委員並沒有規定說他不能兼職但是我有我自己的這個堅持的點我原來是核心醫院藥劑部及其他兩個部門的主管但是就任立委前我都辭職了"},{"start":4276.417,"end":4306.117,"text":"然而即便我在健保署會議上做了這麼清楚的說明衛福部幾個月下來都沒有表明告訴我說這個會議有利益衝突或不妥但林淑芬立委卻在質詢台上對我進行政治攻擊跟抹黑很重要的林月琴立委還親自對我說為什麼我不用最高的標準來要求自己好那我必須來告訴大家到底是誰沒有用最高的標準來要求自己"},{"start":4306.878,"end":4322.993,"text":"請看這張我們就來看看這位要求我用最高標準來對待自己的立委是如何的嚴以利人寬以待己林月琴擔任立委後同時兼任了四個團體的幹部"},{"start":4324.814,"end":4351.721,"text":"這四個團體的幹部從林月琴委員就任後到現在總共獲得了22個標案總金額高達9400多萬其實我相信這些團體聲譽卓著它有很多的豐功偉業就算沒有立委當門捨我不認為他拿到政府的標案會有問題但問題在哪裡呢林委員有沒有用最高的標準來要求自己呢"},{"start":4352.381,"end":4377.4,"text":"我擔任健保署的專家委員我可沒有零幾百萬的車馬費喔我也沒有拿幾千萬的標案喔可是他要我遵守最高標準那請問他自己有辭掉基金會的董事嗎有辭掉聯盟副理事長嗎還是他要各此向吳春成看齊把立委辭掉如果都做不到那這不是雙標什麼是雙標呢"},{"start":4382.52,"end":4404.857,"text":"市長我們現在來看一下狼醫事件市長在台大西教授事件發生的時候我就已經叮囑過台大醫院我有邀請他們到辦公室來在姓評會做過相關的決議後就要儘速往上通報西教授一案是如此黃姓住院醫師一案也是如此"},{"start":4406.018,"end":4421.425,"text":"請問台大醫院有沒有網上通報給台北市衛生局為什麼沒有台大醫院內部的行政環節出了什麼問題難道覺得這件事不重要不需要網上通報嗎請吳院長回答謝謝您只要回答有沒有通報為什麼有通報就有通報沒通報是為什麼謝謝院長"},{"start":4432.993,"end":4457.753,"text":"根據性騷髮我們這個案子很快在三個月內就處理完也通報衛生局主要是因為性騷髮在好 院長您說你通報衛生局社會局社會局但是你沒有通報衛生局好 院長我了解先這樣但是台大婦產科已經是高風險的部門"},{"start":4459.815,"end":4474.985,"text":"他竟然連三報高風險的部門 次長台大醫院數次的不作為等同包庇這些性騷犯衛福部能不處理嗎龍頭醫院不是應該要立標杆嗎"},{"start":4477.591,"end":4493.705,"text":"加害者可以持續在台大醫院任教診療數十年姓平慧雖然已經掌握多名的受害人數可是我們都沒有看到院方主動公開處理進度跟結果也就是說它是個系統性問題"},{"start":4495.266,"end":4508.646,"text":"受害者需要多年私下躲避然後同時要幫助他迴避那個加害者職場內缺乏有效的保護申訴跟轉介的管道所以形成了一個什麼呢 噤聲"},{"start":4510.709,"end":4525.328,"text":"制度的一個結構 噤聲大家都不敢講話噤聲的結構為什麼會這樣呢就是因為醫療體系內部權力機構跟性別的詮釋不對的導致受害者長期沒有辦法申訴"},{"start":4526.63,"end":4540.832,"text":"那由於目前的通報制度院長通報制度上有漏洞啊您通報了社會局但是您沒有通報衛生局上次我來跟您建議我就說您要趕快通報衛生局這個導致很多案件最後用什麼方式草草了結呢自行離職"},{"start":4542.707,"end":4558.764,"text":"請問自行離職草草了結的方式能夠防止再犯嗎能夠防止跨院流動嗎做得到嗎所以好麻煩次長次長未來性平會確認的性騷事件可不可能說不要等判刑"},{"start":4559.765,"end":4572.438,"text":"不要等判刑你可以啟動醫師懲戒或是限制職業等措施來補足這個行政處理的標準跟性平制度之間它有銜接的落差嗎好請次長回答"},{"start":4574.292,"end":4594.82,"text":"謝謝委員我想這件事情大家也非常關注我們也一直強調其實醫療人員我們病人在我們面前其實這個部分病人是因為疾病來到我們面前那醫療人員醫事人員應該採取最高標準那您剛剛所提到的就是說在性評會確認後不用等判刑其實這個部分本來就可以從醫師法第五條來啟動懲戒"},{"start":4597.26,"end":4622.605,"text":"好謝謝你那就是要行動啊但是都沒有看到行動啊那我想我想最後一件事是說當婦產科醫師們涉及性騷性侵的時候院長我問過你啊他適合繼續當醫師嗎他適合繼續當婦產科醫師嗎婦產科醫師是要檢查女性最私密的地方他已經犯了性騷案跟性侵案他可以繼續當婦產科醫師嗎您覺得可以嗎"},{"start":4626.639,"end":4650.313,"text":"絕對不可以 絕對不可以嘛 市長 絕對不可以那衛福部做了什麼衛福部沒有做任何事啊 繼續行醫啊 繼續代表台灣出國啊目前在整個流程上面 在我們知悉相關的案件之後就立刻請地方衛生局來啟動醫師懲戒委員會市長 因為 當然是以台大 我的母校嘛反正就是我不是酸葡萄心理 我們都是從那裡畢業的"},{"start":4651.789,"end":4676.485,"text":"台大醫院他的很多通報系統出了問題台大醫院的這個婦產科婦產部門現在必須要趕快澄清他們的生育嘛因為現在變成這個高風險部門嘛所以吳院長您要趕快做這些處置醫師的懲戒處置不管是衛福部來做還是誰來做總要趕快做嘛我們現在看到不是嘛他們就是在犯嘛或是說"},{"start":4677.586,"end":4696.982,"text":"到別的醫院行醫就沒事了嘛 這樣吵吵吵吵了結這樣行嗎這樣對社會大家受害者都交代不過去啊好 麻煩兩位首長 謝謝主席謝謝陳道志委 謝謝次長 還有院長那繼續我們請徐曉新委員質詢"},{"start":4709.314,"end":4714.15,"text":"謝謝昭緯 那我們請這個衛福部次長還有我們台大醫院"},{"start":4722.743,"end":4744.716,"text":"因為院長不在但是上一次我來的時候針對台大醫院的性騷案我們是跟院長之間在做互動當時我們就提到了台大的醫師他有涉嫌到也不是涉嫌而已已經被確定台大醫院這邊確定說他有性騷這樣子的一個行為這也引發外界嘩然"},{"start":4747.378,"end":4751.821,"text":"他現在的職位依舊是婦產科的醫學會的理事長在上一次我在未還委員會跟我們的部長在討論這件事情的時候我就談到了他因為還是婦產科學會的理事長所以當時有一個狀況是比如說他們召開婦產科的相關活理事會相關活動"},{"start":4774.856,"end":4787.39,"text":"這個當事人這個陳醫師他人在現場那他是理事長那當下就有很多的受害者他們也不方便公佈他們的姓名或他們也不方便現在對外界說都不斷到現在都在隱忍"},{"start":4788.251,"end":4817.68,"text":"在那個時候呢那他們到底該敬酒還是不該該喝照還是不該那時候我們都接到很多匿名的陳情就是他們有女性有很大很大的壓力因為他們還是必須因為工作的關係在這個理事會裡面但這個理事長本身過去曾經對他們有性騷這樣子的行為所以這個無異於是第二次的讓這些女性的醫師們那感受到加害以及不舒服以及不公平的待遇"},{"start":4818.3,"end":4827.186,"text":"那當時呢我們就談到了當時您看這上面因為今天不是這個部長所以我想我必須重新跟您說一下當時的情況那這個台大醫院已經調查這個醫師是嚴重的性騷被記過"},{"start":4834.11,"end":4858.445,"text":"他是否不再事任副產科學會的理事長邱太元部長說他現在在衛福部職登已經沒有了我說那他還是理事長啊他說這是民間團體我們會我說那他是民間團體你覺得應該怎麼辦呢邱太元部長當時的回應是我們會要求他們儘速改選那我們又講了一些內容然後後面他就再強調一次我們會勸他儘速改選"},{"start":4861.767,"end":4871.415,"text":"那再來呢這個啊我談到了請給我一個期限你們需要多久的時間辦理完成因為我怕離開這個質詢塔以後又說哎呀沒有這件事啊現在就是這樣邱部長說不會我會把告訴他們的情況以及婦產科的回應隨時跟委員做報告好隨時跟委員做報告"},{"start":4883.504,"end":4900.342,"text":"那上一次呢是在1月2号的时候所发所做的这个相关的这个质询那到现在5月21号过去五个月针对我的办公室我们现在卫福部跟我们办公室联系此事"},{"start":4901.323,"end":4916.721,"text":"不管是回報進度或者是聯繫本案都沒有是零次那次長你覺得這個是不是為服務有相關的疏忽我跟委員報告這個案子的進度因為其實也很誠實的說我自己也是婦產科醫學會的會員"},{"start":4918.423,"end":4932.78,"text":"那我認為學會他除了在專業領域裡面去進行專業上應該有的這一個精進之外在這麼重大的醫學倫理事件學會應該要有一定程度的態度也應該表現給民眾看因為這個"},{"start":4933.26,"end":4956.886,"text":"其實在前一段時間台北市的相關的這個職業工會其實也提到這件事情這是整個醫事人員很重要的一個形象以及醫學對病人之間醫學倫理應該有的一個行為這件事情先跟委員報告是那當然在進度上面目前衛福部已經請地方衛生局針對現在已經確定在性品已經確定或甚至判刑確定這幾個個案他其實應該要進行相關的懲戒"},{"start":4959.807,"end":4986.876,"text":"那以這一案來說以本案來說這一案就我們的了解應該是呃台北市衛生局會在之後的這個醫師懲戒委員會開啟這個懲戒好那懲戒歸懲戒啊但是他作為民間團體理事長這個部分那從我們從1月就開始追這個議題但到現在已經5月了那他們說哎呀9月就要改選了所以現在來不及可是問題是我們的質詢以及衛福部要求對方去做改選或者是去溝通這件事情是"},{"start":4987.256,"end":4999.971,"text":"1月就應該開始做了那為什麼到5月的時候現在還是沒有相關的進度呢所以也跟我們報告就是說醫學會他本身的不是衛福部他自己內部的理事長是內部的民主他們內部的選舉選出來的"},{"start":5002.614,"end":5019.857,"text":"這個邱太元部長就說了我們仍然可以跟理事會進行相關的溝通嘛委員報告大概到日前我還有在跟學會這邊不斷的提醒就是請學會要有積極的作為這個我想不只是在法律上面可能沒有明確要求醫學會要怎麼做"},{"start":5020.157,"end":5041.962,"text":"但是這是一個重大的醫學倫理案件也是全台矚目的案件那請問就是說我們衛福部在這個事件上面有幾次跟這個理事會聯絡那希望溝通他們要來改選這個過程當中我們有幾次跟他們的聯絡針對本案這個我可能沒有辦法明確的告訴委員幾次那有人能夠回覆嗎在法規上面醫學會跟衛福部這邊的關係衛福部並沒有這個法源說"},{"start":5048.923,"end":5066.722,"text":"但是因为邱太元部长当时就说他们会要求尽速改选嘛这是白紫黑字讲到的嘛然后他也说会把我们的这个状况以及妇产科这个理事会相关的回应随时跟我报告但完全都没有啊从一月到现在已经五个月了啊"},{"start":5067.222,"end":5089.714,"text":"所以你們應該要現在我今天既然在質詢台上面你應該要現在告訴我們從1月到5月目前為止針對本案你們去跟理事會做了幾次的溝通然後他們的回覆是什麼既然這5個月以來你們都沒有跟我們辦公室報告那現在是不是要對所有全國民眾在現在的這個質詢場上做一個完整的說明應該是4月25的時候議事司這邊有相關委員這邊的槌群議事司有回一個委員齁"},{"start":5096.277,"end":5114.428,"text":"不過就是整個對於婦產科醫學會這樣子的我想這單純也跟委員還有所有在場委員報告這個案子不只是這個因為有相關的醫事人員或醫師在我們講的性平三法或者是相關性騷擾防治相關事件上面所以接下來衛福部當然法律是整個道德的最低底線"},{"start":5115.508,"end":5133.154,"text":"那在法律没有明定的事情的情况之下这件事情牵涉到重大的医学伦理所以卫福部这边我们在接下来的一轮大会也会来没问题我们再看下一张因为这个事情为什么要持续追踪是因为他非常的夸张这个理事长网站上依旧是他嘛"},{"start":5133.874,"end":5151.983,"text":"那如果說有任何關心這個議題的人點到我們台灣婦產科醫學會裡面去看這個理事長他的簡介的話你會看到他說他要替婦女及婦產科醫師爭取更好的福利然後呢還繼續講說呢他要去跟其他的國外進行學術交流"},{"start":5152.703,"end":5171.422,"text":"這些話都是無疑讓很多被性騷因為他都知道哪一些地方是死角所以這些女醫師沒有辦法直接拿出很多的證據跟畫面的原因就是因為他非常清楚醫院內部的結構所以他在很多死角對這些女醫師進行性騷的時候那這個女醫師他們是沒有證據的"},{"start":5176.167,"end":5199.165,"text":"但是他们是非常痛苦的而且台大医院这边也已经性骚这个部分也已经确定了嘛那我们点进来看到理事长还是他然后他还这个大言不惭的说要对妇女和妇产科医师争取更好的福利那请问是什么样的福利这个对于很多第一个这对很多的女医师来说看了都非常的不舒服第二个"},{"start":5199.685,"end":5215.138,"text":"我们这个理事长他就讲到说要到韩国跟这个妇产科医学会来进行交流而且呢4月的时候他本来称病哦但是呢被解聘之后说要请病假两个月"},{"start":5215.758,"end":5236.478,"text":"那這到底是請病假還是在迴避新聞話題還是迴避我們在立法院當時的監督我想大家心知肚明答案昭然若揭那現在還是以說這個解聘案在救濟程序中為理由擱置對他的處置然後在4月的時候我們1月就在談這個事情了然後就說要去溝通了"},{"start":5238.78,"end":5265.421,"text":"四月的时候他说他病好了这个礼拜要率团赴日跟日本的妇产科医学会交流那请问日本的妇产科医学会怎么想他们也不是不会看新闻他们看到的新闻就是你们台湾派来我们这里跟我们妇产科医学会交流的是一个性骚犯那家丑大家遮都还来不及还代表台湾去交流这根本就是丢脸丢到国外去啊"},{"start":5266.121,"end":5272.309,"text":"所以我想要問一下就是說到底為什麼他還是可以在理事長這個位置上面穩坐泰山呢"},{"start":5273.323,"end":5301.443,"text":"還是該委員跟委員報告當然我們衛福部這邊會在相關有的法源的情況之下請他們包含懲戒等等但是懲戒這件事情可能不包含到醫學會那所以還是再次強調這件事情第一我們會希望之後召開的醫師懲戒會的委員們可以給予一定程度的處理第二個就是這是一個非常重要的醫學倫理的案例所以我相信不只是特定醫學會或特定個人就是整個醫療界都應該要了解那您剛剛講"},{"start":5301.823,"end":5324.746,"text":"講到懲戒的部分喔 可是我們去翻了一下去年底部長的說法是說呢要聖平三法走在前面 要經過判刑確定才回到醫師法的第25條一副懲戒醫師法25條懲戒的條件裡面在第四款就有它相關的醫學倫理的部分那內部其實有好幾款甚至到第五款都還有其他可以援引的部分"},{"start":5325.206,"end":5346.762,"text":"所以说当时我们在询问的时候那如果能够做相关的援引的话那这个事件的这个处理的进度就能够比较快那再来我们要讲到就是说呢这个违反医学伦理您刚刚说可以送惩戒嘛那我想问这15年来总共有几个案子因为违反医学伦理送到惩戒的"},{"start":5348.702,"end":5378.205,"text":"其實因為時間的關係我直接講只有12案而已我們這邊其實因為它事實上在醫師法或者是懲戒的辦法懲戒辦法好幾款那當然其中有一些是犯法了有些是倫理的問題或有些事實上是職務上面的問題那所以其實這全部我們當然還是再一次強調就是說懲戒這一邊是由地方衛生局來召開那地方衛生局相關的懲戒委員我們也期待大家能夠呼應以及理解這個社會對於重要道德標準"},{"start":5379.726,"end":5400.464,"text":"那這個部分是不是還要請這個衛福部要去再跟相關的理事會再溝通就像當時邱太元部長講的那樣子就是說希望建議他們可以再盡快改選不要讓大家都覺得我相信今天這個我們在委員會這樣子的一個關切那相關的學會當然不單純只是婦產科醫學會應該都要注意到這件事好那我們請台愛院請回"},{"start":5405.629,"end":5422.415,"text":"那最後我要問一個問題就是關於剛才大家都很在乎的這個喔台大醫院可以那個院長可以請回喔那個我們大家都很關心的這個凱凱案的事情喔那我想要請問一下訪視員是公務員嗎不是吧那這個何謂的訪視是由協會來承辦是嗎凱凱案的訪視員有哪一些協會來承辦凱凱案的訪視員應該是這一個這個居託中心"},{"start":5432.719,"end":5441.931,"text":"居托中心哪一家居托中心文山的居托嘛這十年來的督導是有特定對象的嗎這十年來的督導督導指的他內部督導外部督導 外聘督導"},{"start":5452.219,"end":5469.402,"text":"我說文山區拘托這10年來都有外聘督導那都是同一個人都是林月琴委員從107年到112年都是到113年以後才改人那所以呢當時我們可以看到"},{"start":5470.543,"end":5482.208,"text":"林月琴委員她身為外部督導應該有機會比我們早知道凱凱案的發生因為她如果說她以她外聘督導的身份去詢問的話是可以的可是2024年3月18號我們排了凱凱案的檢討的相關的這個委員這個質詢的時候包含林月琴委員是不讓薛瑞元部長上台質詢的"},{"start":5494.893,"end":5522.264,"text":"然後呢他拿著這個手板批判他人呢只會逃避但現在很多社工的機構看不下去所以我們才知道說原來真正在逃避沒有道歉隱藏自己身份的人是美國的立法委員還自詡而關心而造的應該不是不讓上台因為當天應該就我的了解是委員會內部因為某個委員跟阿佛聯盟的關係所以在整個委員會那請問這個林月琴委員跟這個凱凱案的關係呢"},{"start":5526.425,"end":5554.215,"text":"他就是本案的外聘督導沒有錯啊那他今天他今天攻擊其他的委員說對方是阿福聯盟的什麼董事結果自己呢本身也是人山之託就是這個案子的外聘委員然後他要別人不要逃避的時候其他所有的人包含是台北市的市長也都對凱凱案道歉了但是這樣的情形不是非常的荒唐嗎再來我要問的事情是有關於利益迴避的部分哦"},{"start":5555.035,"end":5571.202,"text":"擔任立委的時候接政府的標案這是一件合理的事嗎這是一件能被接受的事情嗎這沒有利益迴避的問題嗎就你擔任立委同時是基金會的董事長然後你在接政府的標案這是可以的嗎"},{"start":5572.763,"end":5591.857,"text":"報告人跟我們申請標案的是這些團體這些團體的董事長是誰但是我們這些團體這個進捐兒童文教基金會當時在申請跟標這個案子的時候的董事長我想請問一下是哪一位林志強然後呢 那林月琴當時是擔任什麼樣的職務"},{"start":5593.198,"end":5614.513,"text":"我們的了解他擔任的是董事所以他是董事的情況之下然後能夠來去做這個標案標案一共標出了多少呢三個案子裡面是479萬元裡面的董事有我們的立法委員再來取得的補助也高達330萬元兩者加起來一共800萬"},{"start":5615.894,"end":5626.867,"text":"不過兩年的時間而已就透過基金會董事兼立委的身份拿了這麼多人民的納稅錢你們也知道他有立委的身份但是卻將標案給了這個基金會甚至給予補助款這有沒有圖利的問題"},{"start":5631.031,"end":5655.496,"text":"報告委員我們內部相關的這些補助案我們都會要求地方的這些廠商就是說來跟我們申請的廠商或者是標案廠商他上面要依據利益我們講的利沖法他必須要聲明他自己內部的董監事是否有相關利益迴避的身份那這三案是怎麼回事啊這個部分我們會回去調查當時團體在跟我們申請的時候有沒有進行這樣子的一個動作"},{"start":5656.236,"end":5681.714,"text":"這顯然有利益迴避的問題吧因為部內有這樣的要求就是說他們要來跟我們申請標案要做這樣子的一個團體要澄清但如果團體勾否那這樣子就是團體當時沒有做這樣子的一個宣告那請問如果有這樣子他勾的是否但裡面明明有需要利益迴避之人那請問衛福部接下來要怎麼樣進行下一步這個是在力衝相關的力衝相關的部分團體等於是他們隱匿他們應該要跟我們呈報的資訊對"},{"start":5684.696,"end":5703.666,"text":"相關的懲處內容後續我們要進行調查後面的懲處內容會是什麼後續的話就是一樣這個團體怎麼可以在這個情況怎麼可以跟我們說的怎麼可以跟你們說謊嘛對不對那補助的部分也是一樣嗎我剛剛講的是標案另外是補助補助的部分我們可以看到的是我們都要團體要提出補助可以看到是這個"},{"start":5705.167,"end":5729.828,"text":"進捐基金會擔任董事職務的時候申請的補助金清單包含很多啦2024年跟2025年都有我剛也把數字念出來了申請補助但是自己本身是立委這個也有利益迴避的問題吧再次跟委員說明就是說相關在立充法我們在衛福部內的同仁我們都很注意這件事情所以其實在本來團體來跟我們申請不論補助或標案他們都應該要填寫"},{"start":5730.869,"end":5754.011,"text":"這個所謂利益衝突相關迴避的這個城堡他們必須要告訴我們有沒有這件事情有沒有這樣子的關係所以我的意思是說這三個標案以及這兩年的補助如果相關的基金會沒有告知你們裡面有在未還委員會的立法委員擔任董事會董事長的情況之下然後仍然取得標案取得補助那是後續你們衛福部要來追究此事"},{"start":5754.751,"end":5775.366,"text":"這個部分應該會是變成 這個第一個事情是團體這裡的問題那第二個就是說主要我想利益衝突迴避還有監察院的部分還有監察院的部分嗎 好 那這樣我們知道了我們委員們都說要用最高的標準解釋自己但是如果說同時之間沒有請辭他自己本身的這個基金會相關的職位"},{"start":5776.827,"end":5789.396,"text":"還拿標案還拿補助還騙衛福部那我想這是一個非常嚴重的情況我想不是特定的應該是說這個部分我們是這些團體來跟我們申請的時候團體並沒有申請對啊 我就說這是某種程度的隱瞞了衛福部嘛因為他應該要告訴你們說裡面有誰嘛那你說他沒有他可能沒有勾選所以你們給了這個標案跟補助嘛那某種程度來說他就是隱瞞相關資訊嘛所以他會有利益迴避衝突法還有監察院相關的問題嘛"},{"start":5806.947,"end":5830.077,"text":"過去有幾位立法委員都因為類似的事情自我辭職甚至他可能是他周邊的助理去做了這樣子的這樣子的標案或是補助也都辭職了那我們現在就要看那請問這個相關案例的委員他要用什麼樣的標準檢視他自己以及後續會不會有任何的一些法律追溯問題那時間有限非常感謝 謝謝謝謝徐委員 謝謝次長"},{"start":5835.256,"end":5836.677,"text":"接續我們請盧縣議員主席有請次長跟吳院長"},{"start":5855.059,"end":5861.443,"text":"委員長好我們台上目前這個位置我們四個醫生我們來好好討論一下這個性騷擾的問題我覺得這個問題很像給我們醫護人員很大的一個所謂的那個猛懲讓我們覺得很羞愧"},{"start":5870.609,"end":5888.764,"text":"那很像剛剛幾個委員講的很像就是動作太慢懲處的部分動作太慢那我們就看一下我們性平三法大概成立到現在大概兩年的時間還不到兩年的時間那其實我們一直在看這個名稱性騷擾防治法性別平等工作法性別平等教育法"},{"start":5889.304,"end":5913.214,"text":"很像這個法裡面沒有提到醫護人員所以感覺很像最認真的是教育單位我們每次看到被懲處或者是說動作最迅速的都是老師那我是覺得說其實我們在看這那麼多的案件我看加加減減我們大概成立的案件大概是1647案然後勞動部在去年有做了一個所謂的職場的那個"},{"start":5914.734,"end":5922.482,"text":"哪些職業類別是最容易產生性騷擾結果醫療社服業是前三大你覺得你有什麼看法嗎"},{"start":5924.136,"end":5952.666,"text":"跟委員報告就像我們剛剛說的醫事人員他因為他本身在國家是領有相關證照那也在繼續教育的相關的這個繼續教育裡面都有提到包含性別平等相關的性別平等或性騷擾相關的學分那理論上來說應該就是我們希望大家能夠具有性別意識而且要遵守法律那也跟委員報告就是說這也是在性平三法之後各自都有一定的責任那尤其這邊在勞動部可以去提到的這個部分"},{"start":5953.286,"end":5971.692,"text":"事實上就是依照性平三法那性平三法的這個性平等工作法事實上在內部就有要求為什麼會最容易產生性騷擾這個方面可能是我們是肢體接觸最多的一個行業所以這個分歧可能就是最難逆的最要緊所以想問院長"},{"start":5972.512,"end":5996.857,"text":"那位性騷擾的醫師婦產科主任就是說他真的有去上教育訓練的課嗎你怎麼去做那個勾肌跟確定事實上我們每年都有辦不是他到底有沒有去上課因為主任或者是部長或者是教授是不是因為他這樣子的職稱他都沒有去上課他都不管所謂的性本平等的教育這些東西在醫師的我們醫師一年有兩次"},{"start":5997.717,"end":6003.351,"text":"就是全面的組織而且那個都要刷卡我們有那個組織醫師所以他的課是白上了嗎"},{"start":6004.638,"end":6033.517,"text":"這個我沒辦法回答我們所謂的沒有停止這個部分你看教育法的第15第14 15 18 31只要有一個案情確立的話他就會被停止醫師這個部分是不是太寬鬆了不要講醫師我們醫護人員包括牙醫師包括護健師這些是不是因為這樣子沒有相關的法規造成沒有辦法馬上停止的條件"},{"start":6034.337,"end":6054.323,"text":"這一點我是同意委員的看法法律只是道德的最低標準所以在醫師的懲戒裡面有一些不是違法而是違反醫學倫理也可以送懲戒所以事實上我們醫師特別是醫師這個團體對自己的倫理要求是蠻高的那我也很疑問發生這樣的事情"},{"start":6055.703,"end":6082.8,"text":"發生這樣的事情你們有沒有檢討說應該以後要如何防範或者說你們有更高的標準來我們來面對我們婦產部的一個檢討改善的方法好謝謝委員事實上我們有做了很多的防範包括在事件發生以後把全科的我們有全科的教育所有不管是男性女性醫師你在做內診的時候一定要有護理師這個是最基本的要求"},{"start":6083.881,"end":6096.576,"text":"很像回到好幾十年前的那個教育我的意思是說已經到這個年代了已經都在上性別平等的教育了為什麼還是沒有辦法防範我的意思是說你有沒有更好的一個想法或者說去防範這樣的事情"},{"start":6098.18,"end":6123.966,"text":"甚至我們在上次C性C性醫師就是發生的時候雖然在性評刪法沒有規定要通知但是在還沒有修法之前在陳昭之委員的建議下事實上我們也是主動移送包括衛生局跟醫師公會所以事實上我們可以再更積極所以是不是醫師法這邊"},{"start":6125.486,"end":6145.761,"text":"就是需要改進我們次長這邊可以回答嗎醫師法第五條就有相關的醫師懲戒那另外再補充就是說像事實上醫事人員他同時也不單純只是醫事人員的身份譬如說他是在如果他在以台大為例在台大醫院他本身工作就符合性平三就性平性平平的工作法"},{"start":6146.181,"end":6162.4,"text":"那另外他如果在學校是有教職的他也符合性別平等教育法那另外所有全部的人都有在性騷擾防治法的這個範圍之內老師的部分他有所謂的解聘還有終身不得再聘任老師所以醫師的部分是不是應該比較辦理"},{"start":6163.442,"end":6181.805,"text":"醫師這個部分如果走進那個醫師懲戒辦法內部也會有調照或者是取消他的執照的部分對 所以我們看到他大剌剌的還可以代表台灣去參加日本的交流然後而且是以理事長的身份這樣之前的委員講的讓我們覺得說這個真的是丟了我們國家的臉 次長的態度呢"},{"start":6182.543,"end":6212.281,"text":"所以我剛才也在強調事實上這些事件的發生我認為這是大家都是專技人員那也都是受過我剛說了不論性別平等的課程或者是相關的這個高級知識分子大家對於自己行為跟倫理以及團體內部應該有的倫理規範應該要更加的我這兩天看了一些文獻那我想說一直想試圖去找結果我每次看到比如說我要找一個所謂的sex harassmentcare provider to patient"},{"start":6212.801,"end":6241.992,"text":"結果他那個題目自動會回到patient to care provider也就是說我們這件事情是常常是病人對醫護人員心騷擾可是我們在台灣卻發生的是醫護人員對病人心騷擾所以幾乎是沒有前例可循所以變成台灣是一個可能是以後在防治這樣作為一個指標所以市長這邊應該多做努力讓人家覺得說怎麼是台灣可以發生這麼離譜的事情結果在引用文獻上面沒有可以"},{"start":6242.472,"end":6256.889,"text":"可以去看的報告委員沒有錯委員所說的在國外的很多研究都是病人對醫療人員不過其實國內一樣也有病人對醫療人員事實上過去也有一些護理師所以你說像這樣的太陽是不是應該就要公布給大家"},{"start":6257.349,"end":6278.637,"text":"所以他事實上就是在性平三法內部為什麼在去年的修法前年修法去做了一些補強就是在性平三法內部我們讓行為人他有這個包含立刻進行調查或者是說在這個過程中調離他原來的職務這一些相關的規則裁員是可以被訓練三年半然後都沒有做任何的處置台大這邊有沒有解釋謝謝"},{"start":6280.017,"end":6309.128,"text":"他發生的時候是在110年那時候是還沒有修法那我們當時候其實也把他調離原來的職務不能不能去單獨值班跟看看急診的病患而且我們有特別找了主治醫師有給他輔導那其實他雖然沒有被停職但是也是行通因為那發生事情的時候已經是第三年的後半部所以在整個"},{"start":6310.109,"end":6335.271,"text":"完成調查以後我們也給他記兩個過可是我那時候還沒有辦法有職權給他免職因為這個免職這個職權我雖然是院長但是這個免職我們也是要根據這個性品委員會那我就是說次長跟我們院長還是希望這法規上面能夠多去精進或者是說看看有沒有最快的方式來處理這件事情不要一直讓人覺得說台灣是一個性騷擾的天堂謝謝"},{"start":6338.852,"end":6365.719,"text":"好 謝謝盧委員 謝謝次長 院長來 繼續我們請黃國昌委員質詢謝謝主席 有請衛福部次長以及台大醫院的院長委員好"},{"start":6372.051,"end":6396.88,"text":"吳院長我先請教一下目前台大醫院在急診那邊擁擠的狀況還嚴重嗎最近又開始嚴重因為最近是新冠肺炎JN1病毒株最厲害的時候最近這一兩個禮拜病人又開始增加我只想利用這個機會因為難得有機會在外環委員會遇到你"},{"start":6400.388,"end":6426.227,"text":"我將心比心非常多家裡有老人家的人那老人家一出狀況可能後續的併發症等等會很嚴重大家第一時間都要送到台大去那過去我曾經陪伴我的父親到台大醫院的急診室那時候人多到我還記得很清楚我是在"},{"start":6428.24,"end":6456.169,"text":"病床不是在急診室病床是在大廳睡在大廳睡在病床外面當然每個人都需要服務整個晚上我有看到急診處的同仁大家非常非常辛苦我只想藉這個機會第一個表達我的謝意第二個台北醫院急診處或其他醫院的狀況有什麼需要立法院這邊幫忙的"},{"start":6458.348,"end":6480.869,"text":"請院長隨時跟我們報社聯絡該給第一線醫護同仁的支持,全力支持好,接下來請執照那個我想額六的問題喔,大家天理燃農啊非常憤怒啊,這麼多人在法院外面抗議"},{"start":6482.867,"end":6506.692,"text":"那當然過去這幾年我們的政府不斷的在強盜社會安全網那相關的預算的經費也不斷的投入那每次這樣子的悲劇發生的時候我們都會去思考我們整個社會安全網為什麼政府這麼重視投入這麼多經費接不出凱凱這也是我相信為什麼台灣社會這麼多人憤怒的原因"},{"start":6508.132,"end":6531.283,"text":"我事前預防的層次也有事後究責的層次事後究責的層次對於現在額內的處罰規定不夠這件事情已經有相關的提案雖然主管的機關是法務部但是從衛福部的立場針對額內的部分去增加刑罰的強度這件事情衛福部是不是贊成"},{"start":6532.108,"end":6550.388,"text":"我想在法律的部分委員也清楚我們在過去的修法事實上在相關法規如果是對於幼童相關的虐待事實上都加重其刑二分之一是至於其他的刑度或者是在修法上面的立場當然我們尊重法務部的當然是尊重法務部嘛所以我說法務部是主管機關所以我才請教你衛福部有沒有立場"},{"start":6550.908,"end":6575.826,"text":"站在衛福部的角色我們事實上就是把剛剛委員所提到的社會安全網的部分來做強化對不起我剛剛在問的是刑法的問題這邊做的是前端的預防不是刑法是 我說站在衛福部的立場針對有關兒孽增加刑法衛福部知不知恥我想 兒孽對兒童虐待在相關的法律裡面去加強去讓他加強刑法過去就有加強二分之一刑法等等所以你覺得夠嗎"},{"start":6578.129,"end":6600.043,"text":"比如說站在衛福部的立場我們做的是前端的預防跟資源的補強那針對後面刑罰的加重後面刑罰的加重就是法務部的權責所以你們就完全尊重法務部我不能在這邊去為法務部說我沒有要你為法務部現在我請你站在衛福部的立場表達衛福部的態度你可以跟我說衛福部沒有態度尊重法務部這樣就好了對我剛剛說了第二個"},{"start":6602.364,"end":6628.722,"text":"去年3月的時候,外防委員會針對這個凱凱的額內案請衛福部報告那一天出現了很多意識上的杯葛因為民進黨的委員任何主席是王育民委員王育民委員好像是額福機構的董事他當時是額福聯盟董事是,然後認為他應該要利益回一臂"},{"start":6630.385,"end":6641.09,"text":"鬧了很大的風波我今天其實是來討論制度的問題我不是來做政治攻防的問題因為最近這一兩個禮拜我相信相關的政治攻防也夠了讓大家非常詫異是不是用同樣的標準站在下面的人去抗議坐在上面的主席是那個機構的董事"},{"start":6657.881,"end":6683.679,"text":"結果搞到最近大家才知道,原來他是這個案子裡面外部督導那我相信,詹惟也是好意所以今天排了這樣子的一個專案報告去討論有關外部督導的權責那只不過我看了衛福部今天的報告我對外部督導的權責其實我是越來越困惑真的越來越困惑那我為什麼說我會越來越困惑我們一步一步來看"},{"start":6686.308,"end":6711.438,"text":"那個時候在去年3月的時候衛福部所提出來的書面報告講說要去強化地方社政主管機關的監督職責包括對於居家托育服務人員的監督那這個監督我們落實到法規層面上繼續來看有關於兒少福利與權利保障法第26條第三項的規定"},{"start":6714.545,"end":6737.263,"text":"居家式推育服務的監督直轄市政府可以自行或委託相關專業機構團體辦理這個沒有錯吧那我現在的第一個問題是說這個居托中心的監督的這件事情在凱凱案他有委託外部的團體辦理嗎"},{"start":6741.656,"end":6765.718,"text":"這個當時是文山區的這個拘托中心我們先一樣一樣來因為我覺得現在太多媒體上面的討論都著重在政治上面的攻防這不是我今天質詢的重點所以就請你們一樣一樣把問題的層次弄清楚就是那個保姆他是由兒福聯盟去轉介的"},{"start":6767.384,"end":6772.159,"text":"是吧 那個保姆是不是掛在文山區的居托中心下面"},{"start":6773.632,"end":6799.923,"text":"我這樣說應該沒有錯嘛就是我們一定要把法律關係先搞清楚權責才可以釐清啊你如果連基本法律關係都弄得亂七八糟的我看一堆媒體的報導我真的不曉得他們在寫什麼東西啦第一個那個保姆是掛在那個居托中心下嘛那按照這個兒少法26條第三項的規定以及直轄市縣市政府居家托育服務中心執行業務處理原則"},{"start":6801.784,"end":6811.871,"text":"其中有一個重要的法定任務是那個保姆去照顧小孩但我們要有個機制去監督那個保姆我這樣說應該沒有錯吧"},{"start":6814.384,"end":6835.438,"text":"那個因為這個要記在立法院公報所以就請你yes or no就直接回答這樣立法院公報才可以因為你點頭那個議事人員無法記載你點頭那個保姆我們其實是由各縣市政府他的這個居家托育服務中心來做管理是嗎好那現在法條上面26條第三項他說監督"},{"start":6838.454,"end":6859.606,"text":"他可以自己做也可以委託相關的專業機構團體辦理那凱凱案這個案子的監督是台北市政府自己做還是委外做台北市政府他是委託民間團體來做委託哪一個民間團體新北市大愛關懷協會新北市大愛關懷協會那新北市大愛關懷協會怎麼進行監督新北市大愛關懷協會"},{"start":6868.439,"end":6880.815,"text":"第一個他給文山區的居托中心然後小孩交給他們下面的居家的保母去照顧嘛那我現在care的事情是因為我們今天竟然講"},{"start":6882.199,"end":6902.564,"text":"外部督導我老實講啊督導這兩個字我看不懂什麼叫督導我是法律人啊所以我一定回到法律權利義務關係才會清楚嘛在法律裡面規範的是監督那監督可以委託外部監督那您剛所講的是委託外部監督是由誰做的"},{"start":6902.904,"end":6924.961,"text":"委員我再說明一下就是說保姆是由文山區居家托育中心來監督這個保姆文山居家托育中心是由新北市大愛關懷協會接受台北市政府的委託來經營管理這個文山居托中心那誰負責監督"},{"start":6929.824,"end":6948.04,"text":"監督保姆嗎還是監督第一個是台北市政府他應該要負責監督文山巨頭中心因為依照我們兒圈法的第26條所以我剛才問你嘛再回到26條第三項在這個案子裡面監督這個事項有沒有委託外面的專業機構辦理有還是沒有"},{"start":6950.131,"end":6968.76,"text":"還是你不知道 你不知道就說不知道沒有關係他就是委託新北市大愛關懷協會來 對吧所以就回到這個問題所以要負責監督的是不是就是新北市大愛關懷協會那新北市大愛關懷協會他監督的範圍有哪些因為我今天看你們的書面報告這樣講可能有一點你聽了會不舒服"},{"start":6977.557,"end":7001.134,"text":"我看不懂在寫什麼啦我真的看不懂在寫什麼啊監督可以委託外部的機構做那他就是要做監督嘛啊你整個書面報告把它寫的好像是一個外部的顧問啦有意見聽聽他的意見就好啦委員您對外督外督的工作跟這個新北這邊那個所委託的單位做的所謂監督是不一樣的事情"},{"start":7001.294,"end":7027.241,"text":"我知道所以我回到這邊的監督來看現在我沒有要指涉對定的委員我已經說了我今天來這邊質詢不是來做政治攻防的是要把我們的社會安全網到底怎麼建構在法規上面的權利義務把它搞清楚這個是我今天站在這邊質詢的理由因為凱開的案子大家除了憤怒除了要重懲絕大多數的人關心的是不要再出現下一個案子"},{"start":7028.416,"end":7036.905,"text":"所以我才問嘛回到這個個案來加以檢討那個監督你是說有委託一個大愛關懷中心來做外部監督嗎對這樣說應該沒有錯嘛那個外部的大愛大愛關懷協會他要怎麼進行監督"},{"start":7044.428,"end":7071.471,"text":"他第一個他自己內部有督導所以他的督導應該要監督他的訪視輔導員剛剛我們有講居多中心要辦理的這些業務他都是應該是他們內部要督導的在這個案子裡面剛剛您所講的外部監督單位的那一個所謂內部的督導他有沒有盡到內部督導的責任對這件事情就是台北市政府他應該也要督導是啊"},{"start":7073.504,"end":7099.253,"text":"我們層次一樣一樣來我從來沒有說台北市政府可以免責我現在在追究的事情是監督的工作已經委託一個外部的機構你現在跟我講說外部的機構他有內部的督導跟外部的督導我的理解沒有錯嘛在凱凱這個案子裡面內部的督導有做到他該做的工作嗎這個是我的問題還是到現在你們也不知道他有沒有做到他該做的工作"},{"start":7101.305,"end":7102.286,"text":"我剛不是在講仿事"},{"start":7122.924,"end":7139.59,"text":"的指引就是說仿似的評伺這不是我在問的問題仿似的評伺其實如果說他評伺足夠像這樣子的特殊出養兒我還是回到這個案子他內部的督導有沒有做到他該做的事情有就有 沒有就沒有這個事情就這麼簡單還不知道就說不知道嘛我希望他們可以做得更好"},{"start":7140.51,"end":7161.3,"text":"他們有沒有做到?有還是沒有?還是不知道?根據記錄他們有去做這個仿事輔導員有去仿事但是我們認為這樣子的一個敏感的狀況也許他就跨縣市他的仿事評次還有仿事的強度應該要加強所以妳意思是他做得不夠好嗎?可以這樣講 如果要這樣說那他的外部督導做得好不好?"},{"start":7162.335,"end":7171.323,"text":"外部督導要看這個居托中心要求或者是請外部督導來協助的是哪些案子好 那以這個案子來講外部督導該做哪些事"},{"start":7172.625,"end":7193.224,"text":"外部督導其實在外督的立場上來講事實上就是協助員來機構內部不論是他的這個社工或者是仿事員尤其是社工他在他的功能專業職能上的提升所以他沒有負責監督他感覺起來是比較是教育性質顧問性質心理扶植性質的是這樣嗎是這樣子的外部督導有意義嗎"},{"start":7195.202,"end":7217.198,"text":"外部督導事實上是長期以來在社工我們為了加強社工面對多元儲育很複雜的這些工作的情況之下能夠增加以及同時也給予社工一人的支持要給社工外部的資源支持我百分之一百都贊成我百分之一百都贊成這個立場先講好但是我還是回到我的初衷"},{"start":7218.359,"end":7243.272,"text":"我們要避免下一次悲劇發生每一個人該做什麼事情權責要很清楚如果現在劃定的權責如果現在劃定的權責不適當的話該改就改嘛為什麼我一開始強調這是一個政府委託的外部監督機構法條的功能就是要做監督嘛那監督機構你說那這個監督機構有內部督導"},{"start":7246.485,"end":7262.913,"text":"有外部督導內部督導沒有做好所以我才問你他的外部督導該做哪些工作因為我在法規上面完全看不到啊那你如果說今天我們對任何一個工作要有內控外控"},{"start":7264.158,"end":7292.792,"text":"我們就是擔心內控沒有做好才要做外控嘛但你們今天提出來的報告讓我沒有覺得根本沒外控啊有跟我們報告剛剛林月琴委員也要求我們在一定時間之內把外督應該林月琴委員要求你們什麼事情喔沒有 林月琴委員要求你們什麼事情是林月琴委員的質詢嘛現在我在質詢的是我的問題嗎跟您報告就是我們會去界定外督他在跟相關委託單位之間的權責義務需要多久"},{"start":7293.752,"end":7315.859,"text":"我們盡速來演你盡速是多久?這個事情發生非常久了我們是不是可以讓我們跟社工這邊再去跟社工了解社工們的需求以及執行所以這個問題意識你們是最近才發生最近才發現有這個問題意識報告員剛跟您報告了在去年事情發生之後我們事實上就訂定了直轄市跟縣市政府居托服務中心的訪視原則讓原來應該去做訪視輔導員的部分可以落實"},{"start":7319.3,"end":7343.601,"text":"對 那我剛剛講的是外部督導的部分啦所以我問你們的問題是你是到最近才知道我這個問題意識嗎外部督導本來他負責的事實上就是來作為原來機構的備援跟強化對不起 你還是沒有回答我的問題剛好問你要多久啊你說你需要去跟人家討論所以我才問你說你有這個問題意識多久了嘛啊你如果到現在還需要去跟人家討論這件事情的話代表是你現在才有這個問題意識嘛我有說錯嗎"},{"start":7347.068,"end":7350.029,"text":"需要多久 委員我們認同我們系統性來檢討那我們剛剛是不是說兩個月我們兩個月會把這個相關的權責還有委託機構之間的權希望盡快 希望盡快 謝謝好 謝謝黃國昌委員 謝謝次長那繼續我們請劉建國委員質詢那在圖前級委員質詢完畢後我們休息8分鐘"},{"start":7373.769,"end":7382.258,"text":"好 謝謝召委 召委辛苦了齁 休息八分鐘來請次長 議事司 今天有誰來怎麼委員長"},{"start":7388.638,"end":7417.538,"text":"是,市長早,意思是為什麼是你來,不是副市長來?副市長請病假請病假,好副市長休假,對不起,我們是另外一個同仁,對不起,休假我們另外一個同仁受傷,所以但是副市長有事,所以請休假意思是有事請休假副市長,副市長也是那副市長不用來,那市長應該可以來"},{"start":7419.651,"end":7420.173,"text":"今天這個事情"},{"start":7422.56,"end":7450.655,"text":"雖然是次長來嘛,但是這個是次長有休假應該是次長可以來吧不一定說一定次長來就一定要副市長來啊因為副市長不用來嘛對不對我們回去了解我覺得因為部長剛好就是去參加那個市委嘛對不對對,那次長等同就是部長嘛所以應該次長來,市長應該就可以來才對而且這個事情今天跟他是有關係的嘛對啊好,謝委員"},{"start":7451.335,"end":7467.775,"text":"我想這樣啦齁這個近期醫界分老很多您跟部長都是來自醫界嘛齁他不是有性騷、性侵犯、性侵案還有霸凌等等的這些狀況所以這個醫院的白色劇團裡面還真的有很多改善的地方啦齁我想次長應該可以認同"},{"start":7469.076,"end":7482.891,"text":"那我們如果比照英國、美國都有監視醫師的公開平台除了醫師資格、背景、職業狀態還有查詢醫師有紀錄讓民眾可以清楚了解自己是被怎麼樣的一位醫師來看診所以目前醫師資格查詢系統"},{"start":7484.741,"end":7507.545,"text":"那麼現在只能查詢醫事人員的職業縣市為了得知這個職業資格是否有效懲處與判決的紀錄這些落差落差是很大跟委員報告如果他有辦法在職業登記上面就我們職業紀錄有找到他現在是職業中的話那就是他現在是一個在職業他的執照是允許可以職業的狀態是是是但是我是說可以查到大致上就是這個樣子而已"},{"start":7508.005,"end":7531.486,"text":"現在可以做慷慨的就是有在市長那邊這樣對啊 但是你們自己有說你們的部長跟你們的市長有說一句話醫事司林業平市長也回應現行早已握有醫師名單要不要公佈都很快但因需在法律之下討論公佈到什麼範圍為不維護民眾就醫權益下盡快完成這在什麼時候要講的 1月份1月份"},{"start":7535.055,"end":7550.959,"text":"然後三個月內將研議揭露平台公布不良醫師醫院的名單這是你們的市長回應所以他今天沒來 市長你怎麼有辦法代替他答覆這個但你部長也是有講 建設平台公布名單可嚴厲那市長講什麼話 應需在法律之下來討論 公布到什麼範圍"},{"start":7558.052,"end":7575.152,"text":"沒有法律依據嗎我們在法院上面必須要去確立跟委員報告現在的幾個進度就是說這幾個個案其實原來他在性我們後來修正過的性平三法不論是以醫院本身他是性平工作法然後他如果是學校附設的話也有教育部的這個性別平等教育法"},{"start":7575.652,"end":7603.192,"text":"好那再來性騷擾防治法其實在這三個法源之下應該都有權利要求相關當事人停職或後續的性評調查那調查之後如果屬實其實我們也非常期待就是說接下來他能夠更主動的來跟地方衛生局通報之後來啟動醫師懲戒的行為沒有沒有要揭露這個平台基本上是你們議事司的司長所講的而且會儘快然後他講的那句話要依據相關的法律的討論之下嘛就有了啊"},{"start":7606.679,"end":7631.93,"text":"這不依據嗎議事懲戒辦法第22條主管機關執行議事懲戒委員會或是議事懲戒副懲委員會之懲戒決議應執行命令及決議書刊登公報戶本並附送所屬的議事公會嘛議法院主管第33條針對判決又懲戒確定的名單屬政府應公開資訊嘛你還有什麼法律的依據跟委員報告就是現在已經完成懲戒的部分都可以有公開資訊出來對 判決一樣啊"},{"start":7634.346,"end":7659.259,"text":"判決一樣 判決有對啊 為什麼你們堅持這個平台這麼久為什麼你們堅持這個平台還需要依據什麼樣的法律的論的討論 我不曉得啊然後你們一月份包含部長 次長都講了啊現在已經五二一了啊其實除了醫師之外 我們也考慮到一件事情啦這不只是醫師啦 也還有其他的醫師人員那散在各個法裡面"},{"start":7660.299,"end":7682.573,"text":"好所以說我們現在正在研議就是說是不是把我們講的專技人員就是專業技術職業人員好他在整個一旦是相關特定大家所關切這些這些犯法的事項能夠有一個比較明確的做法市長我會在為難你這個是你們部長跟市長尤其市長講這個講的這麼斬釘截鐵對不對會盡快那你的盡快一月講的到現在已經五二一了這個平台沒有困難吧"},{"start":7688.575,"end":7704.622,"text":"呃 一個月內可以吧一個月內 跟委員報告齁 我們一個月內給委員報告好不好不是給我們報告 不是給我報告 不是不 你要反而我就找反而給你的啊再跟委員報告齁 就是說我們接下來醫事師這個是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是 這是"},{"start":7708.237,"end":7734.707,"text":"不是我去要求吧我是提醒那你們就要去落實你們部長跟市長所講的落實部長講的有道理啦但是你去落實市長講的我覺得很不好意思嘛所以他今天應該要來才對啊他怎麼會沒有來這個部分我會跟部長盡速來做處理好啦一個月內啦好不好那第二件事情有相關的法律你們找不到我找給你了好那第二件事情我想全國關注的凱凱案市長應該是不僅要掌握啦"},{"start":7735.467,"end":7756.365,"text":"而且憤怒也難過所以今天我還是針對這事情要跟你討論我特別提到很多人就說是社會安全網出問題沒有啦這個小朋友是社安網已經接觸了是接觸出來出問題如果要討論問題的本質應該是在這個地方然後這事情隔了這麼久"},{"start":7757.586,"end":7782.612,"text":"到現在沒有任何一個公部門的公務人員還是行政人員接受懲處沒有呢 那有沒有缺失薛前部長我跟當時在這個委員會跟他對話薛部長認為新北市在處理問題上沒有封堆重點新北市對脆弱家庭的評估沒有相關資料台北市沒有依據衛福部的處理原則建立適合照顧安置個案之居都內的名單"},{"start":7783.939,"end":7808.044,"text":"案發後凱凱死後三個月 雙北政府沒有任何作為這是事實嗎 薛前部長的這四個評論我們都認同這總結啦 我想不止於兒虎嘛雙北都有缺失 但是到今天為止怎麼會沒有任何一個官員接受處分身為中央助理機關 次長你怎麼看待這個事情你能接受嗎 接受處分應該衛福部沒有"},{"start":7808.584,"end":7811.646,"text":"台北市為什麼不依據衛部處理的原則建立適合照顧安置居托人員名單"},{"start":7830.456,"end":7843.676,"text":"當時為何不得回應是說台北市政府認為斜列安置的資源足夠所以未建立保姆名單對不對當時是怎麼回應嘛當時這樣對不對好 董事長台北市現在請教一下台北市現在建立這個名單了嗎"},{"start":7845.041,"end":7859.709,"text":"應該這樣講後就是說各縣市政府他會運用保姆當成安置資源大部分是這些縣市他的安置機構的數量或這樣僵硬數量不夠那台北市他是沒有用保姆來當成所以他到現在還沒有建制嘛對不對"},{"start":7860.169,"end":7887.879,"text":"他認為他不需要啦對他不需要嘛所以之前不需要現在也不需要嘛對不對好但是你再看一下喔雖然台北市到現在沒有建立這個名單但去年凱凱按這個發生之後他馬上北市府推動7加1守護計畫經濟保護制度內容怎麼樣大致上講其中一項就好了7加1的改革守護計畫其中一項就是新增辦理家長推進優質保護計畫這樣不是在建立一個優質托育人員的名單嗎算不算"},{"start":7890.972,"end":7904.018,"text":"這樣算不算他這個是優質的保姆他不見得是他其中有一項先真辦理家長推薦優質保姆計畫下面這一個你不要看大標你看下標算不算再建立一個名單"},{"start":7905.711,"end":7906.592,"text":"所以你意思是說城市上還是有些落差"},{"start":7923.465,"end":7940.243,"text":"對於我們的催家或者是需要特殊安置的孩童在這一個計畫可能比較沒有針對到是啦 所以他認為他想要還有很多的安置資源所以就不需要依照衛福部的指示嘛在辦理這個居家托育保姆建置名單嘛那為什麼還要再做這個事情"},{"start":7942.686,"end":7962.425,"text":"應該這樣講我們 你要再提他講我聽你講 你只要跟我說 我跟你講就是剛剛我們講的我們其實上海主要尤其是凱凱案的檢討跟精進事實上我們希望就是針對尤其是我是說他在拐一個彎啦他其實如果他不需要他說他的安置資源足夠他為什麼還在推動這個7.25計畫的精進保母制度 為什麼"},{"start":7964.867,"end":7974.802,"text":"我懂委員的意思然後先辦你家長推薦六指保母計畫我家長推薦保母計畫你不用建制名單不然我推薦去哪裡我推薦給你中央啊我推薦給你嗎我推薦給你說你不用建制名單嗎"},{"start":7979.565,"end":8005.16,"text":"我想事實上除了家長推薦優質保母計畫它並不夠像我們所要求的其實尤其是對於催加或者是相關的這個督導或者是說在這個過程中去把中間的環環相克能夠連結起來對 我簡單講嘛在拐個彎回來嘛 對不對他們是他現在做這個事情他做這個事情之後他還會像之前就丟給兒童聯盟自己去隨便找一找嘛 不可能嘛就會依照這樣來做處理嘛應該是這樣嘛"},{"start":8007.501,"end":8028.444,"text":"我們其實希望他在整個制度內部能夠檢討不要讓他落高啦所以我才講說如果真的台北市認為他沒有這個缺失為什麼要這個精進計畫 其一嘛那其二同樣的如果要在俄互聯盟隨便找一個保姆安置的新北市政府怎麼可能完全不用檢討 不需要有人負責"},{"start":8029.522,"end":8047.607,"text":"也跟我們報告就真的是在尤其是這樣脆弱家庭或者是特殊儲育兒童的部分他在保姆的挑選上面應該可能跟一般所說的這個家長推薦的優質保姆可能是不同的我只是提供幾個點讓次長還有讓相關單位來做了解嘛他不只這樣這兩點再看一下這個台北市"},{"start":8050.168,"end":8078.304,"text":"114年5月13號新聞稿他說市長宣布7.1改革所務計畫每一項都要盡盡推動落實且114年度持續盡盡辦理包含保母訓練強化並增加回遊訓練113年底辦理市長次無一兒童增加出院前訪視頻率三方共訪機制全日拖一年六訪下面紅字請市長再看一下為目前中央尚未將一年六訪三方共訪入法或決議"},{"start":8081.032,"end":8108.702,"text":"我們去年我們去年4月30跟5月1號都有實施我們相關的工作指引那這個指引裡面我們也強調說這個居家托育的分要有分級的訪視跟輔導而且不預約的制度那用安排不同的時段來訪視而且針對特殊需求的孩童的話其實他的訪視次數應該增加而且是至少6次"},{"start":8110.646,"end":8136.185,"text":"台北市政府說沒有啊沒有入法啊沒有決議啊你們相關單位都沒有在掌握針對凱凱案是造成全國這麼大的一個關注讓人這麼多的憤慨然後今天發這個新聞稿說你們到現在都還沒有將這個六法三方共法入法或決議決議喔你們都沒有做喔"},{"start":8137.126,"end":8152.112,"text":"而且是5月13號發布的新聞喔你們有處理嗎?你們有因應嗎?誰處理誰因應嗎?一年前我們就給了指引那這個部分如果這樣子的話是不是我們再做一次比較明確的澄清跟說明所以這個你覺得是台北市故意為之?"},{"start":8153.112,"end":8174.679,"text":"還是真的你們沒有做 講清楚啊我們去年四月跟五月我們都有特別針對這樣的個案我們有要求做居家托育服務中心的訪視工作指引去年四月三十其實裡面就已經有韓文直轄縣市政府居家托育服務中心的訪視工作指引第五點裡面講得很明確嘛 是分級訪視嘛 對不對要是要等一等 看這個什麼規定都不知道"},{"start":8179.652,"end":8195.9,"text":"我來澄清這不是要澄清 他是挑釁的還是還有其他縣市 根本真的不曉得還是你們上令上令就是沒辦法下塔 就會產生障礙一直在障礙中沒有 我們這個韓班之後就全台灣的各縣市政府都要收到我們的這一個指引"},{"start":8196.705,"end":8217.8,"text":"有人說到為什麼發這個新聞稿發這個新聞稿為什麼你們都不應應你們都不回應我們再來做一次公告再來做一次對外的我覺得市長你趁部長現在不在你考核可能內部要整頓一下是不是有些人眼睛都怪怪的還是要裝碎 還是要裝瞎不然為什麼這種事情會發生我們會積極的再做一次澄清"},{"start":8218.342,"end":8240.687,"text":"然後我在這邊具體三個要求剛剛那個要求是一個月的衛部一個月內要建置完成醫師的資訊這個結構平台一個月內針對整個家外安置的房市狀況進行一年後進行一年後嘛對不對進行這個總檢討第一了解各縣市是否有落實106房第二縣市間的房市量能夠不夠第三是否又能有例行公事而且無法在第一時間發現狀況尤其新北市可以吧好謝謝我們來推動謝謝委員"},{"start":8254.264,"end":8282.141,"text":"好 謝謝我們劉建國委員那下一位請我們蘇清淺委員好 謝謝主席我請次長還有台大院長好 請我們次長跟我們台大議員吳院長委員好好 次長辛苦了吳院長已經被叫來第二次了辛苦了謝謝"},{"start":8284.502,"end":8310.524,"text":"好我問吳院長你們台大院員工現在員額是多少人我們自己的包括公職加院聘有八千多位但是我們還有外包人員大概三千多所以大概是一萬一到一萬二左右一萬一啦包括新竹啦這些分院都只有單單台大總院那你的主管你都認識嗎"},{"start":8313.229,"end":8339.93,"text":"醫療的主管跟醫師的主管主管的家裡的人或者家裡的狀況你知道嗎某些可能知道 某些沒有所以你這些依主管級就好了你對他們個人的性別傾向性格 能力 能力應該知道其他的要去了解我看人才非常難"},{"start":8341.519,"end":8353.813,"text":"所以那個伯克萊大學的校長講一句話說我們學校的那些教職員我就要管脖子以上管脖子以上,腦袋瓜比較重要對國家有貢獻喔那你要看什麼"},{"start":8359.32,"end":8372.02,"text":"就是我管理我的這些行政主管一般來講我們可以有從華的層次跟秦跟李的層次那我同意我只能"},{"start":8373.533,"end":8391.504,"text":"就是我們看得到而且法有規定的這一步我是可以做因為我常常跟我們同仁講在台大醫院即使你做到院長跟任何一個機構一樣我不是私人的所以我必須要有法可依有法可循而且我要依法行政"},{"start":8392.805,"end":8416.732,"text":"最後一個是違法避救所以這16字是我自己在做院長對自己的期許那我對所有的主管我也是這樣子的要求所以你也是屬於台北市衛生局管轄嘛所以一下子要跳到外部也是很奇怪啦所以醫師性騷性騷真的有刑事的責任很重嗎"},{"start":8422.935,"end":8437.967,"text":"在沒有現在還沒有修法以前他就是用信憑三法裡面都沒有都是行政處罰那你還刑事上沒有判刑那你這邊可以給他解職嗎沒辦法"},{"start":8439.795,"end":8458.842,"text":"你沒有在管理嘛我沒有在管理我沒有在管理我們法律也是要保障然後衛生局這邊醫師公會要給他送懲戒也可以是誰來界定是那個林姓姓交辦就把他抓起來是這樣嗎"},{"start":8460.667,"end":8484.014,"text":"不是 就是我們有一個很清楚就是說醫師假如真的根據醫師法不管是第25條他一戶懲戒的發動主體是醫師公會或主管機關所以只有醫師公會或衛生局可以那醫師公會要處理是你們要送還是送不送 不能送啊"},{"start":8485.153,"end":8508.383,"text":"所以現在是可以主動 根據還沒有修法的性平三法其實我們要送的是 主管單位是社會局所以之前大家關心的幾個案子 我們也都是根據這樣子去送因為發生的時候是還沒有修法 性平三法之前所以萬一 絕對是依法行政"},{"start":8508.863,"end":8535.322,"text":"但是並不代表說發生這麼遺憾的事情我們就沒有改進的空間我想今天立法院已經是我們國家的最重要的一個機構那這也顯示說其實我們不管怎麼樣都要根據法來做因為法才能夠保障最多數人的權益第二個是只要依法來做才不會有"},{"start":8535.842,"end":8552.611,"text":"有些人可能沒有程序好 那現在就把事情我們釐清啦您台大醫院發生這個性騷的案件不管是醫生啦各個角落都會發生啦各個單位都會發生啦你有一萬多個元額或加上你們新竹啊加上雲林啊 加到我們就萬人啊萬五六個啊"},{"start":8555.692,"end":8581.794,"text":"那你們自己有一個信憑委員會嘛有沒有 議員表嘛那信憑委員會有做出決議之後是不是就把這個案子也送直接送台北市醫事公會然後台北市醫事公會有一個委員會嘛他估計說要送懲戒因為應該是由委員會來決定嘛你不能說你吳院長你爽你就給他判定那不可能的事情嘛"},{"start":8582.535,"end":8595.24,"text":"那我們的林市長他更沒有資格講啦對不對你在衛福部你是獨島單位嘛所以你再上社會局他又要再上台北市議事館也很奇怪啊所以你又不能一個流程齁市長流程比較簡化的你要怎麼做不是只有不是只有醫師啊到處醫院到處都會發生啊"},{"start":8606.212,"end":8630.725,"text":"市報委員其實我們也因為這個事情我們目前正在檢討接下來就是包含各醫事人員的部分是不是要有一個比較明確因為他閃在各個法裡面但是我們還是藉這個機會再強調因為我們144也有相關的業務就是對於性騷擾防治的宣導所以不論是在性平三法內部修法之後已經給予這個主管機關以及相關這個負責人的權限這個部分其實應該是可以充分運用"},{"start":8631.425,"end":8647.025,"text":"那再來的話就是剛剛提到的醫師懲戒這邊我們也希望說懲戒委員會能夠就是開醫師懲戒的這個會上能夠考慮到醫師在整個社會尤其是接觸病人這件事情上面道德上應該有的要求跟標準應該要更嚴格"},{"start":8648.897,"end":8674.158,"text":"所以你們的性評委員應該有職責也要這個案子要不要送懲戒就你們自己去決定然後再譬如說你們台北市醫師公會台北市藥師公會台北市什麼公會他們在接受這個案子之後他們在開會要不要懲戒要上幾個小時要停職要停職職業半年等等那是他們的職責啊"},{"start":8675.259,"end":8685.952,"text":"然後結果再反給你們嘛那個是行政上跟懲戒上的處罰那至於刑責上 那是刑責上那個遙遙無期啊破到來的婚姻啊 對不對這樣是不是可以走"},{"start":8691.183,"end":8709.656,"text":"謝謝委員指導一條明路啦 這個確實是我們這樣最簡單啦 最明確啦對 而且我們其實那個信憑委員會也有外部的委員不是都是議員有律師啊 有教授 社工人 社會人士嘛 等等嘛所以這樣會比較明快啦 不然的話每次人家講這個我講不清啊說不清楚啊 說到社長社長就說"},{"start":8715.948,"end":8739.078,"text":"我們還是希望我們當然是說在法律是法律是道德的最低底線那醫事人員尤其醫師我相信教會也是這樣選擇就醫師我們事實上在那個道德的要求尤其是如果就是所侵害的對象就是自己的病患的話我相信這個是我們大家所不能容許的而且那個婦產科要是高危險科"},{"start":8741.085,"end":8762.086,"text":"那也再藉這個機會補充就是說那你也是入獄長出來那當然其實在我們這個門診隱私維護的這個規範裡面本來就有要求在跟病患接觸的過程中要保障病人隱私那另外的話也要有對於病人一定程度的這些保障包含說可能要有其他人的陪伴等等"},{"start":8762.646,"end":8784.735,"text":"所以這個事實上在現有的法規內部我還是在強調現有法規是最低標準那大家我想在不論是在主管機關或者是在這個所執業單位醫院的主管等等都可以援引現有的性平三法還有醫師法跟醫師懲戒辦法但是在行為還有整個在運作的過程我想委員也知道住院醫師如果是住院醫師還在受訓的過程"},{"start":8786.876,"end":8802.508,"text":"這個其實老師對他我們要給你什麼樣我在訓練上面要額外要求你什麼事實上是還有一定程度的權限而且現在的住院醫師要去考專科醫師之前還有一本這個訓練的護照他要完成相關的這些訓練才能夠去考專科那在這個過程裡面如果師長認為"},{"start":8804.409,"end":8823.683,"text":"在這個所謂應該學這些護照還學的不夠或者是我沒有讓你完成我因為我認為你必須要暫停你的學習來做其他的調查或者是重新把你的能力建立起來那事實上還是有一定的工具可以做啦還是可以要約束力啦好那我另外吳院長你請回我請次次長"},{"start":8828.206,"end":8854.084,"text":"現在很多單位來反映就是物理治療師OT、PT、藥師連醫師第一階段考試的錄取率都很低尤其是我給他看OT跟PT最近幾年的考照及格率都不到20%不到20%那我們教育的目的訓練的目的一般是"},{"start":8856.198,"end":8863.226,"text":"訓練從嚴 考試從寬要嘛就是訓練從寬 考試從嚴那現在長照3.0要開始了喔屬下這麼多人有這些書現在要把中醫中藥商都把他幹掉"},{"start":8872.932,"end":8899.39,"text":"那需要更多的藥師還有中藥的學分補足等等那你藥師的考週率也都不低這個就有點有點奇怪奇怪的餒 次長這是要怎麼解決啦謝謝委員關切啦因為第一個事情我們接下來面對高齡跟少子化本來人力上面就會逐漸的遇到這個挑戰那也謝謝委員提到這件事情"},{"start":8899.87,"end":8921.401,"text":"那我自己以前是立委的時候其實我就注意過這個然後他包含幾個這個是前面的教考用嗎交的有沒有符合臨床的需求這點當然我們會持續來跟教育部來做這個討論因為這個是在教育部的權責第二個就是考那其實過去在考試院的考試裡面有一部分臨床的人員也反映過科企業"},{"start":8922.341,"end":8922.361,"text":"對啦"},{"start":8949.19,"end":8954.276,"text":"我現在看醫師考試的砲案第一階段的課題目很深深的專科醫師考試的題目你要說委員那麼厲害命題委員那麼厲害我來出給他考我保證他不及格"},{"start":8966.138,"end":8988.045,"text":"那有這樣幹的啦藥師也是一樣啊八萬的考試考到這麼基礎的藥理都考到那麼難我是覺得有點吹毛求疵有點故意整人所以這個次郎你現在到考選部要來喝那像護理他也現在多考一次嘛是護理多考一次那其他的都考兩次啊"},{"start":8988.985,"end":9007.608,"text":"當然我們在兼顧這個專技人員的品質上面我們還是得要求啦但是我們也希望他考試訓考能夠符合臨床的需求對啦 當然是一定要追尋要有教但是不然我們被人家刁難課的12% 課到小孩都要沒信心去啦現在小孩子又不像我們現在小孩子用鼓勵的脖子這樣戴著素絲 怎麼會沒有這樣一直忽 一直忽 大家都課不過去我覺得 我無法接受這種 市長"},{"start":9018.43,"end":9020.391,"text":"好 謝謝蘇慶乾委員好 謝謝圖委員 接續圖委員來質詢他質詢完畢休息8分鐘"},{"start":9046.035,"end":9048.237,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那請我們次長委員好 次長好"},{"start":9056.263,"end":9076.242,"text":"那在上個禮拜那個凱開案宣判了嘛那當然我們也知道我們大家現在社會對內同案的重視那對於這個主要保母主要照顧的保母宣判無期徒刑那妹妹被判處18年那以現行法條來講也算是重判"},{"start":9076.963,"end":9087.437,"text":"那表示司法跟社會現在對於孽童案這個行為大家都是不能接受而且法務部目前也在研議加重孽童的相關刑責"},{"start":9090.273,"end":9117.794,"text":"除了凱開案之外我們在上週也有發生基隆的額虐案那這些案子我們發現它有一個共同點這些額虐案的共同點就是其實它前面早就有跡可循所以市長你有沒有覺得其實如果它有跡可循那是不是其實我們在這之前就應該有機會預防所以是不是預防重於治療我同意委員的說法"},{"start":9118.869,"end":9130.349,"text":"對 所以那在這部分之前有跡可循那是不是在我們仿飾員仿飾端這部分我們沒有做到確切的仿飾"},{"start":9132.242,"end":9152.56,"text":"訪市的這個規範事實上在地方政府的規定那當然我們也針對了就是在凱凱案發生之後我們有針對這一個訪市的分級去做一個要求因為有些他可能比較單純有些可能是脆弱的脆弱狀況或特殊儲育跟出養童的情形所以我們去年有針對這一個做了一個"},{"start":9155.803,"end":9169.661,"text":"訪視指引的分級我們去年公告的訪視指引也就是說假設他第一個事情是他在這個訪視的過程中他要嚴謹的來做一個訪視跟輔導另外的話他要採取不預約而且安排不同的時段去訪視"},{"start":9171.443,"end":9190.745,"text":"这个才比较能够看到他真实的状况另外的话就是针对特殊需求譬如说他是发展迟缓的儿童出养的儿童家外的安置儿童或收拖任何一个儿童已有照顾风险或持续有受伤的情况的话那我们请地方的社会局要增加他的访视次数那是他的特殊情况可以再增加"},{"start":9191.397,"end":9209.549,"text":"對啊當然所以我們一直也來對於這個社會安全網對於我們社工的部分除了要增加這個人員之外就是要把這個訪視的次數增加那如果既然有跡可循就要持續來追蹤所以我們除了訪視端的不足我們發現像凱凱案來講"},{"start":9212.031,"end":9241.199,"text":"其實這個監督面我們也覺得是失能那我想請問一下我們這監督制度建立的設立的目的是什麼等下跟我們報告就是說在內部它本來這個凱凱案的話它是在文山區這一邊的居托中心那台北市政府是有委託民間團體來進行這個他們的居托中心的監督那這個部分我是不是請同仁來報告一下"},{"start":9242.102,"end":9255.738,"text":"對 其實這剛剛我大概有瞭解我們台北市政府就是委託新北市大愛關懷協會然後再請我們文山區居託中心去聘請 找這個保姆"},{"start":9259.904,"end":9285.843,"text":"對 文山居托中心他是負責管理這個保姆保姆嘛 對啊所以他找這個保姆去轉介嘛由兒扶中心去轉介是不是保姆是由兒盟自己去找到的這個保姆對 所以這個保姆他找到以後去照顧這個凱開嘛那我們 我要問的是不是我們這個監督他制度他監督的功能是什麼"},{"start":9287.028,"end":9304.014,"text":"這個監督的機制應該是第一個它是兒盟找到了台北市的這個保姆那這個保姆是由文山居托中心來負責管理那文山居托中心是由台北市政府他委託了新北市大愛關懷協會來承接這個居托中心所以"},{"start":9305.365,"end":9323.702,"text":"所以这个新北市的大爱关怀协会应该要来督导跟监督跟管理这些保姆对啊所以他有聘请这个督导嘛然后刚有了解一下你们督导又有分内部督导跟外部督导对我们督导有分内部督导跟外部督导那他差别在哪里他的权责呢"},{"start":9324.442,"end":9350.842,"text":"內部督導應該督導的功能大概有教育跟行政跟支持那內部的督導大概是包括他內部的這個處理個案的這些流程這些行政的事務這些都應該是內部督導要處理的那外部督導他比較多的功能應該是教育或者是支持因為社工在處理個案的時候可能這個家庭是非常複雜的可能在專業職能上面是需要有一些外部督導來做一些協助"},{"start":9351.778,"end":9380.991,"text":"所以他外部督導的功能我據我了解他有包括就是我們這些訪視員訪視回來他要檢視他的訪員的記錄嗎這個比較多應該會是內部督導的職責跟責任因為個案記錄是每天他只要去訪視就會有個案記錄的那外部督導通常是一段時間才會來一次所以內部督導應該是個案記錄檢視會比較多的責任是在內部督導他要做的事情"},{"start":9382.461,"end":9401.584,"text":"所以我剛剛講說這個檢視法人紀錄還有我再瞭解一下好像他也要確認保護案件的處理前線這些都是內部做的嗎外部不需要做嗎就是說第一個內部督導他應該是所有的管理剛剛有提到的管理的所有的責任應該比較多會是內部督導"},{"start":9402.205,"end":9418.157,"text":"那另外一個單位他要請外部督導通常他們會就議題來處理譬如說他可能是需要一些專業知識譬如說我們這一次想要對於兒寶的知識要了解或者是兒女的知識要了解比較會是主題式的"},{"start":9419.679,"end":9434.439,"text":"所以據我們了解我看你們的報告剛剛那個也有委員提到你們外部督導真的好像不是督導感覺真的好像是顧問然後有事情再來問他這個設定好像跟督導的設定這個"},{"start":9436.181,"end":9463.711,"text":"好像不太一樣我們事實上就是在本來內部制度就應該要有督導的制度那外督這邊他其實是來提供原來系統內部如果遇到比較複雜的個案那他在原有制度之外要提供他的知能他的能力或者是幫他尋求更多的這個資源的情況之下由外督來協助那外部督導他是主導還是被動外部督導的主要是由這個機構他有需求的時候來尋求外部督導"},{"start":9465.446,"end":9477.186,"text":"所以我說聽起來像顧問有問題才去問他比較是他來提供原來在制度內在機構內部的訪視員或者是社工知識能力或資源上面的加強"},{"start":9478.393,"end":9497.565,"text":"那所以你內部這幾乎來講督導的工作幾乎照你們來講應該都是內部督導在做我們希望內部督導的這個職責能夠落實而且他才是原來的有這個跟原來機構之間有指揮監督的關係所以所以你們的報告寫的意思就是外部督導其實"},{"start":9500.095,"end":9511.62,"text":"幾乎就不像督導真的就像我們講的就是顧問他雖然叫做督導不過事實上外督主要的角色是支持協助教育原來在系統內部的這些社工或者是我們的訪師輔導員所以這個凱開案跟這個"},{"start":9515.462,"end":9535.642,"text":"基隆兒孽案的發生我們真的是希望像你在訪視員去訪視的時候其實很多事情都已經有跡可循然後你像基隆兒孽案當初他就有通報說這個父親就不適合跟這個小孩子在一起那時候是不是說已經去申請保護令"},{"start":9538.52,"end":9561.847,"text":"基隆額虐它的起因是夫妻的親密關係出問題是離婚案件所導致以孩子作為報復手段的一個額虐所以它是結果看起來是額虐事實上它是離婚案件所以前面其實那個時候法治的時候就有一些跡象嘛孩子跟父親的關係在過去沒有任何衝突"},{"start":9563.28,"end":9574.094,"text":"所以同時也會降低所有網絡人員對孩子安全上的一個敏感度的確如果沒有訪視的時候沒有發現有一些問題他幹嘛要申請保護鏈"},{"start":9576.994,"end":9603.152,"text":"他的保護令是申請媽媽對爸爸就是這個這個岸夫跟岸母他是因為要離婚夫妻之間產生衝突所以媽媽去申請對先生的這個禁止施暴的保護令並沒有申請孩子的遠離這個父親的保護令所以前面是沒有發現打孩子跟父親可是這父親不是那時候說有一些暴力傾向嗎他是對太太"},{"start":9604.372,"end":9608.134,"text":"是他是對太太是因為夫妻關係感情不好因為這個相處的一些問題包括他們的家務分工還有他們的這個生活費的一些支付然後長久有一些觀念不一致然後導致媽媽"},{"start":9623.282,"end":9648.021,"text":"有打算要离婚也聘了律师处理这个离婚事件所引发的这个额虐所以我觉得这还是有一些疏失啦那对太太都有暴力倾向那离婚以后太太不在那她是不是就转接到小孩子身上是如果按照常理通常法院在裁判离婚的时候会针对孩子的监护权做另做处理"},{"start":9648.874,"end":9671.922,"text":"所以這邊我們今天希望針對這些額內跟凱凱的事件預防綜藝治療這個訪視一定要加強這訪視居然有一些跡象我們就要加強訪視而且我們今天了解以後發現我們督導這個制度內部外部其實都不是很明確那當然今天"},{"start":9672.822,"end":9695.568,"text":"我是覺得針對外部督導的部分我們衛福部有一點避重就輕啦但是重點我們並不是說今天一定要去追究誰的責任而是覺得這個權責真的要分得很清楚那如果照我們今天衛福部今天所說明的其實這個督導制度好像"},{"start":9696.408,"end":9714.56,"text":"所有督導的責任幾乎都放在內部那外部督導根本只是流於形式而且蔣時代根本就是一個顧問職的根本沒有真正落實外部督導應盡的責任我們會全力來希望就是制度內能夠好好的運作"},{"start":9714.98,"end":9726.187,"text":"那当然外部督导这边我们另外是协助就是说他是六人以下本身机构这个配置比较小的机构我们来协助他们有一个外督来协助原来没有办法有内督的情形"},{"start":9727.183,"end":9744.24,"text":"而且其實據我們了解這督導他的重要的工作就是檢視訪人的紀錄跟確認保護案件的處理情形所以這督導一定要針對訪視員去訪視以後那督導他本來他就是比較專業那針對你訪視回來這些問題或許訪視員沒有發現就像你說對老婆有暴力傾向"},{"start":9750.646,"end":9774.583,"text":"那督導就應該要去注意他對老婆或者是暴力傾向那離婚之後他就有可能對小孩子發生這樣的事情那你督導就是比較專業姑且不論你內部外部督導的權責怎麼樣那我覺得今天督導這個責任應該要發揮他的專業領域去好好去對於這個處理的情形要好好落實去做"},{"start":9775.819,"end":9790.805,"text":"所以希望我們需要這個全責一定要劃分清楚而且我覺得內部外部真的要好好規範一下照今天這樣講起來督導好像都是內部督導的責任外部督導乾脆就改成顧問就好了"},{"start":9791.805,"end":9809.516,"text":"如果照我們今天的報告這樣來寫我是感覺是不是避重就輕但是我們希望事情發生了看如何去補救 權責怎麼去處理訪視一定要確切那督導後續的工作處理情形一定要落實來追蹤謝謝委員指導好 謝謝謝謝市長 謝謝圖委員現在休息半分鐘"},{"start":9826.237,"end":9833.302,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":10486.618,"end":10513.011,"text":"好我們繼續開會等一下在林淑芬委員執行完畢之後我們處理臨時提案啊你會想咧改書面喔那來林淑芬委員執行別說太久了好謝謝主席喔是不是請我們林次長"},{"start":10521.341,"end":10548.589,"text":"市長其實台大住院醫師的性侵這個個案事實上在一發生的時候不管是醫院地方北市衛生局或者是我們中央新聞剛出來的時候都是用醫事法第25條第二款要判刑確定才會送懲戒然後這種法律概念大家都覺得荒謬無比"},{"start":10549.557,"end":10574.648,"text":"然後醫師利用這個醫療職務機會而犯罪事實上同時已經也違背了這個醫療倫理那如果有高度社會矚目立法院排案要報告了次長就改口了就是說不用第二款我們要叫你回答你們當時出來的新聞稿新聞大家都看得出來"},{"start":10577.649,"end":10604.582,"text":"當時所有的第一時間地方衛生局、中央、衛福部、醫院、僱主通通都是用要判刑確定或移送懲戒都一開始都是這樣子所以你今天當然是改口了因為今天要到立法院來報告怎麼可以不改口那我不是說這樣子不行而是執行業務違背醫學倫理我現在要問你是說第一個"},{"start":10606.584,"end":10625.737,"text":"有沒有統計這五年醫師因為妨害性自主案件而依據醫師法第25條第二款利用業務機會的犯罪行為經判刑確定而移送懲戒的案例數有多少 第一個"},{"start":10626.755,"end":10642.243,"text":"第二個第四款因為執行業務違背醫學倫理而移附懲戒的案例數又有多少這五年內你可以告訴我這個數字嗎報告委員我這邊就是說這五年五年內的話"},{"start":10644.224,"end":10663.263,"text":"看一下現在是好五年內的話我們在110年他是有一位醫師是依照醫師法二十就是我們講的二十五條第二懲戒法二十五條第二款廢止他的醫師證書那另外一個案子我再問你數數量就好了我現在手頭上你不用移"},{"start":10664.123,"end":10686.059,"text":"你不用跟我一一的報告問你這五年內因為妨礙性自主喔然後判刑確定被醫送懲戒或者是用第四款更寬鬆的被醫學輪迷而交付懲戒的案件數有多少你就告訴我就好了我手上這個資料是姓平的案子的話這邊是1234"},{"start":10690.043,"end":10698.192,"text":"我是第二款第四款分開的你為什麼要這樣子回答第二款是判刑確定的一送懲戒有幾個第四款因為違背醫學倫理而交付懲戒的個案有幾個"},{"start":10709.383,"end":10736.445,"text":"我們這邊這幾案多數都是這一個包含性投訴性騷擾案然後懲戒那其中有幾個個案有三個個案是判決之後以第二款來移送懲戒你講的是多久的時間以內最近對三年內三年內對有判刑確定交付懲戒的有三個判刑確定的案子在我現在手上的資料裡面110年有一位判刑確定的案子然後在"},{"start":10739.094,"end":10756.954,"text":"111年的那個就是現在正在7月份台北市政府要召開懲戒會另外一個是111年的那個也是在因為這個案子已經提出為什麼這種問題要回答的這樣2266呢那因為被醫學倫理而交付的有幾件"},{"start":10758.406,"end":10773.359,"text":"違背醫學倫理的案子我們現在手上沒有這樣的資料對嘛 所以嘛你們全部都是等到判刑確定才會交付審計啦你們的標準就是要判刑確定啦今天醫事司司長為什麼沒有來我們要講這些問題是說狼醫啊就是由群體依依相互相怨包庇出來的"},{"start":10787.526,"end":10794.952,"text":"你們都用最低的標準一定要踩到刑責確定了才願意交付懲戒你們就是這樣子啊我要跟你講這個案子我要講一個我們地方三窮的故事"},{"start":10804.366,"end":10829.859,"text":"你們掌握說因為妨礙性自主案件的醫生在司法判決以前都可以繼續執業啊所以有一個叫孔凡錦精神科醫師這個個案你有聽說過嗎孔凡錦 後來已經被我們廢止醫師證書你不要這樣講在他在他被你們吊罩以前啊"},{"start":10831.418,"end":10851.783,"text":"發生了第一件是2021年的4月16號在診間強制性交然後呢 三個月不到他再次犯下利用權勢性交而且被害者是16歲以上未滿18歲的少女"},{"start":10853.62,"end":10878.192,"text":"兩岸最後當然是判決有罪但是呢 他是幾年才判決有罪 你知道嗎2024年在2021到2024年之間他沒有裁定前孔繁井仍然繼續執業而且還遭人檢舉他的孔繁井的這個診所名稱改名為同安診所"},{"start":10878.803,"end":10900.156,"text":"而且用他哥哥的名字孔繁中去掛名但是實際看整個還是孔繁井所以呢這代表什麼代表說在司法判決以前沒有定業以前你奈何不了他可是事實上不是喔法律法律有工具欸可以讓你們在判決以前"},{"start":10904.739,"end":10924.685,"text":"就可以去給他移送懲戒孔梵琴醫師這個案子事實上在112年8月2號精神科醫學會就通知新北市衛生局來啟動這個醫師懲戒所以後來是在112年8月18日我覺得你不要把責任說是地方政府的問題啦中央跟地方都一樣因為上刑下校你們就是這個原則"},{"start":10926.505,"end":10943.397,"text":"你從中央你今天才可以跟大家跟各地方衛生局宣示不用刑事判決就可以移送懲戒這個公文你發的出去嗎你可以發出去嗎我們可以再一次提醒大家依照醫師法第五條好那我就等著看你這張公文因為"},{"start":10945.818,"end":10961.346,"text":"社會沒有辦法接受司法判決才可以移送懲戒更不要講法律明明有規定而主管機關從中央到地方都刻意要選擇判刑確定才要移送懲戒那我現在要跟你講喔政大法學院劉鴻恩副教授他有講過委員他曲解我的說法"},{"start":10967.769,"end":10989.21,"text":"國外 我都還沒講他講什麼 你不要這麼緊張 認為劉鴻恩曲解你劉鴻恩有沒有曲解你我不知道 但我現在講劉鴻恩現在我想是他的制度面他怎麼說國外醫生利用診療機會性侵病患 只要是被檢舉甚至是還沒有被判刑但依照主管機關或公會調查的結果"},{"start":10991.252,"end":11003.619,"text":"就已經先被停業處分、調扣執照、吊銷執照的案例不生沒舉而且重點就在這裡醫師的資料只要你涉案了都公開的"},{"start":11004.642,"end":11023.02,"text":"美國紐澤西州一名婦產科醫生因為診療時不當觸摸病患還沒有判刑就先吊扣執照同樣的在紐澤西州2025年2月兩個醫師因為在診療時對病人有性方面的不正當行為沒有判刑就被吊銷執照"},{"start":11024.241,"end":11041.465,"text":"加拿大安大略省的一個醫師在診療時對病人有性方面的不正當行為所以在沒有判刑的狀況就被調供執照美國的阿拉巴馬州對於病人診療時有性方面的不當行為沒有判刑就被調校執照劉鴻恩他這裡沒有講他攻擊你我現在講他講"},{"start":11047.546,"end":11063.712,"text":"他說 證據調查有很多種 刑事責任的刑法責任當然需要刑事司法的調查但是不是只有刑事責任一種耶這個行為涉及到行政責任 倫理責任 懲戒責任"},{"start":11066.806,"end":11081.838,"text":"不一定要透過司法調查我們的法律裡面像民事責任民事責任需不需要司法調查完成才能夠進行民事責任的審理就你所知道的需要嗎"},{"start":11082.478,"end":11101.429,"text":"所以其實也跟我們報告就是說像相關的這幾個案子其實包含我們之前我們在大院也通過的性平三法以醫師來說他所在職業過程中所發生的這些不當的行為不論是在性別工作平等法性別平等教育法或者是性騷擾防治法都移送懲戒了嗎 都移送懲戒了嗎對 但是你們都給他移送懲戒了嗎 沒有 沒有"},{"start":11107.552,"end":11112.114,"text":"你們剛才講的數據你自己講的一清二楚都是刑事判決才移送懲戒這五年裡面你講不出來一涉案沒有經過刑事判決行政責任倫理責任還有我們剛剛講的懲戒責任都沒有被究責到都沒有移送到懲戒會去懲戒所以我就跟你講台灣光是司法制度"},{"start":11134.324,"end":11152.417,"text":"台灣的司法制度的民事訴訟都不需要等到刑事判決才可以才需要負起民事責任 沒有這個東西是一樣的道理如果你們是用一個比較高的標準它是等於利用職務 利用執行業務去對人家性侵性騷耶這不是道德倫理了這是法律上都踩到界限了"},{"start":11158.789,"end":11174.036,"text":"對不對 行政責任 倫理責任 懲戒責任 刑法責任各自有不同的要件和認定標準所以呢各自的調查程序和懲戒的標準程序都不會一樣啊"},{"start":11175.74,"end":11197.312,"text":"所以你們現在看到的實務面從中央到地方就是要求判決後才要移送懲戒你們的不成文規定就是這樣子啊你剛才五年內的統計你沒有辦法說出一件涉案就交一副懲戒會的沒有你剛才的統計資料就是沒有你在這裡嘴巴說你沒有這麼認為你們實務面都是這樣子做"},{"start":11204.336,"end":11209.159,"text":"而你還在這裡嘴巴硬不願意承認當你承認你們有這個問題當你們承認有這個問題你承認然後你說你們未來會改進那麼我們是可以接受的你現在是我們沒有我們通通都沒有你現在就是說我通通都沒有"},{"start":11224.352,"end":11235.005,"text":"內部處理太過保守而且其實也在借這個機會因為接下來在7月份台北市衛生局要針對三位醫師的狀況來開懲戒我們也借這個機會希望大家在懲戒的過程能夠有一個比較有效的作用我再問你一個問題 職業婦產科有嗎"},{"start":11240.191,"end":11260.149,"text":"郎醫只有婦產科有嗎?精神科、兒科的郎醫就算派行以後還仍然繼續職業你們還沒收了民眾的知情權今天要討論的是到婦產科醫師這個看診大家都提心吊膽但是你知道有個兒科醫師2022年濟姓男醫師"},{"start":11264.566,"end":11293.442,"text":"是一個女童的主治醫師 兒科的一時誤想利用而女童求診時為女童與陪同母親實施心臟超音波檢查疑似多次手持超音波探頭 以手抓住碰觸乳房乳頭的方式為猥褻行為涉及猥褻行為法院審理也判刑了七個月緩刑兩年 但判刑七個月緩刑兩年 但"},{"start":11294.417,"end":11321.729,"text":"沒有吊銷醫生執照沒有這個醫師懲戒他們後來做成的決議是警告我們也認為事實上希望大家能夠針對這樣尤其是未成年個案事實上醫界應該要有更強的自律才對我們要的是知情權我以後要去看醫生我都要先到衛福部的官網上去看這個醫生有沒有交付懲戒的紀錄這個醫生有沒有這個涉及這個刑事案件"},{"start":11322.984,"end":11347.254,"text":"而且更何況兒少法規定49條是97條猥褻兒童得公佈加害人性命我們更嚴謹的狼獅兒虐幼保員有定期公開的機制甚至涉及到性別不當對待的事件會處以終身或幾年內不可任用也沒有辦法進到教保機關繼續服務可是你們對狼醫 狼醫對兒童猥褻"},{"start":11351.616,"end":11359.182,"text":"你們是輕輕放下而且還能夠繼續持續的看診服務而且查不到 查詢不到我們性侵案零容忍你們這個平台雖然是在野黨委員提的但也是衛黃委員會通過的你們承諾人家要建置一個平台你們沒有完成就算了其實還繼續在包庇這種狼醫你們就是狼醫的包庇的當兇"},{"start":11381.209,"end":11402.141,"text":"就不要講說要法律授權有法律授權啊 而受法有沒有法律授權 有沒有請問你們公佈在哪裡所以這幾個案子我們會全面的以而受法規定要加害者的名字都要公佈你們有公佈嗎 沒有因為他是醫生 所以不用公佈如果他是教保員或是狼屍 就要公佈了但醫生 請請放下"},{"start":11407.401,"end":11431.039,"text":"不是嗎 你們的醫事查詢系統也可以優化你們醫事查詢系統 因為我們要去看婦產科醫師要內診 有時候要麻醉 會昏迷我不知道醫生會對我做什麼 我也很害怕我可不可以上網去查詢一下這個醫生有沒有前科有沒有移動懲戒 有沒有涉及連兒少的也都可以看得到啊"},{"start":11432.478,"end":11461.406,"text":"所以你可以在這個既有的醫事查詢系統去優化可是你看你們的醫事查詢系統你們的醫事查詢系統大概只能證明說他是一個有合格執照的醫師吧網路上有姓名人員類別職業的縣市如果同一個縣市兩個同名同姓職登科別類別都一樣我要怎麼辨認哪一個是狼醫"},{"start":11463.069,"end":11472.074,"text":"哪一個是我要查詢的那個我在乎的醫師好等一下慢慢來沒關係那我又就用這個查詢網站為基礎"},{"start":11473.154,"end":11492.562,"text":"如果 我再問你第二個問題同名同姓 同科別都一樣我怎麼確認哪個是哪個 第一個第二個這個網站裡面如果醫事人員犯案以後甚至遭到判刑以後沒有被你們吊銷執照改名了 改名了我怎麼查詢他啊改了名就海闊天空了 人生重來了他改名了就不會對病患繼續上下起手嗎"},{"start":11502.608,"end":11510.279,"text":"我不知道我們的知情權你們給我們的知情權是要是怎麼樣是這種沒好的查詢系統而且重點不在這裡喔"},{"start":11519.946,"end":11536.181,"text":"重點還有一個喔改名以外還有一個喔你們自己在上面的說明英式查詢系統的類別上就是一個笑話民眾在網頁上可以得到完整的資訊嗎事實上是不是"},{"start":11537.54,"end":11563.173,"text":"你們網頁最底下的說明民眾查詢到的都是醫事人員同意放置的項目這網站不是完整的資訊你看到的資訊都是因為這些醫事人員同意給你看 你才看得到醫事人員不想給你看 你就看不到所以你們有提醒大家如果你要去查查看這是不是狼醫 有沒有記錄"},{"start":11564.634,"end":11593.294,"text":"如果你在網頁上查詢不到不代表這個人不是醫事人員所以這是不是很荒謬?次長有沒有很荒謬?會不會醫事人員查詢系統不管是否查詢得到都在有或沒有之間所以連他有沒有執照無照醫師滿街跑也查詢不到啊無照醫師不會在這上面因為這上面必須要有執照然後有直登你怎麼那麼好笑有照的醫師不在這上面才好笑"},{"start":11596.158,"end":11618.509,"text":"吳趙醫師當然不在這上面但你的好笑荒謬是有趙醫師也可以不在上面你有趙醫師不在上面所以你查詢的這個人到底是有趙吳趙不知道那我請問你你自己的名字為什麼不在上面因為我現在停業陳時中為什麼在上面因為他現在可以 羅益君為什麼在上面"},{"start":11619.469,"end":11644.739,"text":"我現在在衛福部所以我停業 蘇清泉為什麼在上面陳金輝為什麼在上面因為你不想被人家查詢啦報告委員我不是 是因為我現在是停業我沒有職業登記所以我現在不能在上面那陳時中有嗎這我不清楚他有職業登記喔 那有沒有違規違法羅益君也有欸蘇清泉有 陳金輝也有你們都還在看著有職業登記喔委員的話是可以的"},{"start":11647.915,"end":11674.222,"text":"所以我現在要跟你講說啊因為各種因素沒職業的所以我講說各種因素啊你今天司法卡案在上面你也是查不到所以你可以利用這種不想公開來掩飾你無法職業的問題我要去查詢某某某他是不是涉案然後你上面跟人家說明說查不到不代表他沒有醫師執照"},{"start":11676.069,"end":11697.289,"text":"因為他可以公開也可以不公開你這個制度沒問題嗎改了名以後的狼醫怎麼辦這制度沒問題嗎你給我們的只有這樣子就只有這個簡單的資料這樣子不用精進嗎如果對兒受犯以性侵害需要公開你上面也查詢不到"},{"start":11698.513,"end":11720.907,"text":"這沒有問題嗎你自己說這樣都沒有問題嗎不用改進嗎不用進進嗎一定要改進這次報告委員我還是一再強調醫事人員尤其是醫師在持續的繼續教育過程中都有相關的性別平等或者是相關性騷擾防治等等的學分那再來醫事機構本身基於性別工作平等法跟性騷擾防治法也有針對我現在不在講醫事機構跟醫療人員我現在講的是衛福部的這個網頁這個網站這個平台"},{"start":11727.711,"end":11745,"text":"是衛福部的責任所以跟我們報告就是說因為之前一月份的時候部長也有承諾我們要有一些公開的網頁資訊所以這個部分部長日夜晚回來之後我會跟他盡速把這個部分做起來你現在知道有公開了一月到現在了已經多久了"},{"start":11746.369,"end":11765.643,"text":"醫改團體說你們這個網頁查詢門檻很高 民眾難自保只可以查到醫事人員的職業縣市 無法得知職業資格是否還有效職業資格有效才會在上面因為他可以不登啊他不登的話 民眾上去看找不到 民眾要懷疑他那就是意思他們沒有 你上面告訴人家是"},{"start":11767.825,"end":11792.832,"text":"也就是說他 理化紅線的再看一遍職業中的醫事人員同意放置的才給予公開如果沒有查到不代表此人不為醫事人員你這句話不就笑話 你還能夠講得出來查詢不到的 理論上查詢不到應該全部都是無照的可是你 你的制度讓他們可以閃躲躲在有照的但是不想公開的人的後面"},{"start":11794.946,"end":11816.3,"text":"就是承認你們不足 承認有錯誤承認你們做得不好 就是這樣子而已所以呢沒有辦法得知資格 懲處和判決紀錄懲戒紀錄四散各處 查詢不易 搜尋不到或是匿名 啊改名的咧 改名的咧民眾就醫治保 連改名就查不到 那改名的怎麼處理"},{"start":11818.294,"end":11833.187,"text":"所以其實還是要跟著他的職登跟職業職照的部分來講就改名啦改名啦他改了名字可是他的職登他還在啊所以到時候如果不公開資訊我怎麼會知道那個職登號嘛跟前一個是幾號一樣的我們在上面這個網站改名了"},{"start":11835.123,"end":11855.766,"text":"需要依法公開的資訊不需要修法的剛剛講的依須懲戒辦法第22條法院組織法第83條針對判決和懲戒確定的名單就屬於政府應公開的資料我剛剛講兒少裡面的也必要公開都不會違反任何法律都有法律授權"},{"start":11856.767,"end":11880.178,"text":"那可不可以放進去 依照委員指導這些政府要求公開的資訊我們把它整在一起整合在這個平台可以嗎我們整在這個平台或是讓它在首頁能夠看得到是全統一如果這一塊這麼簡單這麼容易你們應作為而不作為就是行政怠惰而且距離部長1月要承諾的真的是很久了"},{"start":11881.579,"end":11908.049,"text":"英美各個國家都有建制公開平台除了醫師的資格背景職業的狀態還可以就近可進行的查詢有無紀律處分紀錄強化民眾自主的把關透過平台的建制也能夠強化醫界的自律更重要的是減低民眾對特定科別尤其是涉及隱私的科別不信任感和擔憂這個是"},{"start":11911.156,"end":11922.86,"text":"這個是很多好處的啊不是公開 大多數醫師都不會違規 不會違法大多數的醫師也樂於看到淘汰這些劣幣但是護短的體制是惡行的溫床啊護短的體制是惡行的溫床"},{"start":11932.023,"end":11949.303,"text":"所以性暴力零容忍政府跟醫界都不應該視而不見輕放拖延建制或優化這個平台的前提我們知道不影響醫師的清白但也需要在病人安全和隱私維護之間做權衡"},{"start":11951.485,"end":11969.924,"text":"所以要 這細節就是你要納入多細微你要邀請相關的利害團體大家一起來討論所以我們要一個知情權民眾就要一個知情權才能夠保障醫病雙方的權利給我們一個安心就醫的環境啊好 謝謝委員指導"},{"start":11971.062,"end":11988.209,"text":"會不會不如多久可以把這個平台優化好剛剛有委員要求我們在一個月內去把相關公開資訊的部分做規劃他剛剛沒有討論得很清楚我現在講得很清楚懲戒的移送懲戒的相關的法院判決的還有剛剛講的不是判刑確定你們過去五年光是違反議事倫理的沒有一件送懲戒"},{"start":11997.294,"end":12008.984,"text":"這個標準 你要公文下去 告訴所有家 從中央到地方告訴這個國家所有的執法人員不是只有判刑確定好啦 謝謝謝謝林委員 謝謝次長來 我們現在先處理臨時提案 總共有三案 疑病先讀"},{"start":12018.663,"end":12032.061,"text":"第一案現行醫師法第25條規定醫師有下列情勢之一者由醫師公會或主管機關一副懲戒二利用業務機會之犯罪行為經判刑確定四執行業務違背醫學倫理"},{"start":12034.244,"end":12050.983,"text":"然現今各單位無法及時處理嚴重的為施原要求衛生福利部針對醫施法現行條文作出函釋序名違背醫學倫理之完整內涵以及因移送懲戒的明確時機與制度指引供各單位參考以維護醫病關係與醫療環境的正義與安全"},{"start":12056.068,"end":12072.22,"text":"提案人委員陳金輝 盧憲一 陳昭芝第二案有鑒於為解決我國醫學中心急診擁捨問題衛福部已於二月擬定三大短期因應策略分別為醫學中心強化院內病床調度"},{"start":12072.68,"end":12091.767,"text":"加強區域醫院聯防機制強化民眾分級就醫資訊至於兩大中長城改革方向則是強化護理人力整備及鼓勵醫院投入集中症研議健保調整給付然而考量該類措施發揮的政策效果不盡理想"},{"start":12092.987,"end":12113.956,"text":"特要求衛福部限期於二週內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交精進與檢討報告提案人委員陳金輝、盧憲一、蘇清泉第三案特決議衛生福利部應以將配比自二百億元提升至五百億元為目標來積極向行政院及行政院組織總處爭取藉以提升醫療韌性並完備透過全面推動擴大癌症篩檢"},{"start":12122.279,"end":12139.929,"text":"百億癌藥基金長照3.0升級健保財務改革等重大政策達成健康台灣之施政目標並於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝盧憲一蘇清泉宣讀完畢好請問第一案行政黨委員意見"},{"start":12149.202,"end":12162.939,"text":"主席衛福部這邊針對第一案的部分有些文字想要進行刪除就是倒數第五行各有關單位包含衛福部醫院與工會均有權"},{"start":12164.571,"end":12192.902,"text":"依法一副懲戒這幾個字我們需要把它刪除因為委員提案的本意是希望是說不要讓各位升級在一副懲戒的過程中會認為需要拘泥於這個第二款的判刑確定那這個這個訴求呢部裡面一定會照做那所以會建議說就以整個文案的明確性把這剛才所念的中間這個文字把它做刪除以上"},{"start":12194.765,"end":12217.025,"text":"主席我可以回覆一下嗎好可以這邊有找到一篇今年5月13號的新聞這個新聞就是因為剛講到的黃姓住院醫師事件因此衛福部表示已發文請地方衛生局啟動醫師懲戒委員會調查完成後最嚴重可能廢止醫師證書"},{"start":12218.826,"end":12222.409,"text":"就表示說其實你們自己就做了這件事情你們自己就發文給地方衛生局所以為什麼這句話是需要刪除的呢"},{"start":12230.731,"end":12258.97,"text":"包括委員其實就是我們也希望說在原來的法律裡面規定的是這個工會跟地方主管機關來啟動這個懲戒那衛福部這邊是知悉這個判決之後我們來另外要求我們會希望在衛福部有機會知悉這個案子之前工會或者是地方主管機關就可以在他原來的這個性騷或者是性平三法的這個過程中他知悉這件事情就可以來啟動懲戒"},{"start":12261.031,"end":12287.538,"text":"是但因為這幾個禮拜有很多新聞事件當然是有提到說您說衛生局或者是衛福部不一定會通靈所以假使這個醫師公會或者是醫療院所他並沒有來揭露這些事情或是一眾懲戒的話這是你們也沒有辦法做的事情所以大家今天早上討論這麼多事這麼多希望可以補這些漏洞的地方不就是不就是為了這個嗎"},{"start":12289.02,"end":12310.696,"text":"所以就像就跟刚刚委员报告就是说我们另外刚刚委员也知道就是我们卫福部会再发一个文给各地方卫生局跟工会提醒各相关的这个相关的工会跟地方的政府能够知道说假设他知悉这样的业务那他就应该可以来移送而不需要拘泥于第二款判刑确定这个部分"},{"start":12313.784,"end":12337.525,"text":"今天早上這個醫師公會全聯會他們可能是看到新聞所以他們就發了這個衛生福利部曾經發給他們一個函提到說如果醫學倫理客觀上都足以以執行醫師持物有關均可屬之但這個範圍是真的很大所以剛剛很多委員提到就是很怕說"},{"start":12339.166,"end":12355.217,"text":"您剛講到的他可能在這個地方工作或者是他跟這個地方的工會非常好所以我們才希望可以擴大可以移送懲戒的單位因為你還是你畢竟還是有可能會遇到這件事情"},{"start":12356.122,"end":12368.957,"text":"醫生懲戒單位這個是寫在醫師法第五條還有就是我們在應該這個是不是醫療法25條吧這個是醫師懲戒辦法吧醫師法第25條不是醫療法是不是委員這邊是不是"},{"start":12377.998,"end":12391.062,"text":"跟委員回報一下就是說我們因為之前醫食公會全聯會這邊針對這個性騷是不是適用這個違反醫學論理的部分曾經有含群微腐部所以我們在今年的4月22號我有在這裡對對對對對"},{"start":12393.703,"end":12404.47,"text":"我要講的是說因為這個案子在focus是在性騷的這樣子是不是適用違反醫倫的部分我們做出明確解釋那可是其實就像您剛才所說的違反醫學倫理其實範圍很大因為我們在的醫師倫理守則其實就是這麼大的範圍"},{"start":12412.194,"end":12432.951,"text":"我把這份給你們我可以讓你們刪掉那句話可是呢其實早上議事公會就是跟我表達說他們對於這裡面的定義真的是困難的啦這個可以給你我想委員很清楚喔事實上這也是我們我想我們跟委員一樣我們都認同說在法律是最低的"},{"start":12433.766,"end":12461.196,"text":"一个最后道德的标准所以在原来医师法第25条医师有下列情势有医师公会或主管机关一副惩戒这边它事实上第二款的是利用业务机会犯罪经判刑确定但是我们也强调不论在第一款它的业务上有重大或重复发生过失行为第三款非属医疗必要过度用药或治疗行为第四款执行业务违背医学伦理或者是在第五款讲到的是第二款"},{"start":12461.796,"end":12486.946,"text":"其他的这个业务上不正当行为其实这就是医事团体内部在专业上面会清楚的知道他的执行业务的这个模式这个方式事实上已经违反了已经违背了医学伦理这个是我们认为这个调整当然医事工会可以说他很不容易认定可是回过头来就是自己业内的人最清楚知道在医学伦理上面在执行业务过程中他的伦理是什么"},{"start":12487.546,"end":12513.281,"text":"他可以做什麼他不可以做什麼他應該做什麼應該是說就是因為他們是在同一個體系裡面因此他們就更難去做您提到的這個認定但我可以同意你們把這句話刪除但早上這個全聯會他們是希望說你們除了把這個解釋倫理的這個可不可以正式也函釋給所有的醫療機構也不是只有全聯會收到就好了"},{"start":12514.946,"end":12531.03,"text":"我們會再一次的把 包含醫師法還有醫師法第25條這邊所提到的部分還有相關的這個醫師懲戒辦法裡面這些文字全部都再一次的函給地方的主管機關跟工會好 謝謝謝謝委員次長我請問一下"},{"start":12537.102,"end":12562.104,"text":"各縣市的醫術公會、藥術公會等等他們是倫理委員會嘛他們沒有一個特別做一個懲戒委員會他要請衛生局召開懲戒委員會那是先送給各個縣市的醫術公會或藥術公會或什麼公會他們倫理委員會做完裁定之後是送給衛生局然後由衛生局來做懲戒是要這樣嗎"},{"start":12562.725,"end":12585.114,"text":"他們 一個的 他發現有這樣的事實 他有這樣的情勢事實上工會就可以直接把這樣他們所調查之後的資料交給地方衛生局交給地方衛生局 那地方衛生局就直接裁定裁定說要停職啦 或是啟動 啟動醫師懲戒委員會他們要召開 衛生局要召開懲戒委員會那到部裡面是沒有啦"},{"start":12585.834,"end":12603.964,"text":"布是第二層就是如果地方的懲戒委員會懲戒完相關有一些爭議那我們這邊會啟動第二次的這等於是第二關好那第一案把那一段刪掉這樣大家有沒有意見可以 剛剛同意 下一位委員通過 第一案來 第二案行政單位沒有意見好我們配合辦理謝謝"},{"start":12617.298,"end":12627.182,"text":"第三案我們會積極來爭取那不過我們想至少我們會先確定這200億能夠來挹注我們在健保這邊的韌性跟醫藥的韌性也謝謝委員這邊提出來這樣"},{"start":12645.444,"end":12665.452,"text":"主席你有什麼意見我再提一個案要藉的現在在經濟委員會那邊聯席剛剛跟次長有修改又有另外一個案所以大家一起來努力第三案就照案通過"},{"start":12670.731,"end":12677.635,"text":"好那這樣臨時提案三件都處理完畢那接下來我們請陳慶輝委員質詢謝謝主席謝謝委員還有各位官員我們請林靜儀次長"},{"start":12704.944,"end":12733.484,"text":"市長您辛苦了當然很多新聞早上已經露出了所以我這邊紛紛的獲得了一些資訊這個我也非常的震驚因為這是昨天晚上的新聞不知道您是否有看到我們之前有發現但是您身為長久以來都是性評委員會的委員也是許多女醫師的偶像也很會經營社群我相信像我的流量可能不如您但是我已經收到很多女醫師很在意這件事您那邊應該也更多"},{"start":12735.346,"end":12740.434,"text":"我是因為太忙所以我沒有去翻會訊但是今天早上記者來問我我才發現說1月"},{"start":12743.123,"end":12766.758,"text":"部長在這邊承諾說希望他們要改選理事長結果4月他大剌剌的發會訊說他身體康復了他要付出他要為婦產科學院貢獻另外他要帶30位年輕的醫師到日本去做交流還有做一些presentation等等的呃我不知道您是否他們應該快出發我不知道這是幾月幾號學會對學會理事長他現在要出國開會啦他現在要出國開會"},{"start":12772.341,"end":12798.187,"text":"但因為我有注意到其實次長之前對於權勢不對等的這種性騷你有做蠻多發文的我當然也驚呆了因為他放出來的這個list說有30位非常優秀的年輕醫師他要帶著他們去交流但你也可想而知我們也平常都開了很多國際學會嘛在這些場合會有蠻多權勢不對等是不是會有點擔心也想知道您"},{"start":12799.227,"end":12820.09,"text":"的相關處置後續會不會跟部長繼續追這件事情我想委員跟我我們都在同一個學會那這樣的事情的發生事實上對於專業的形象是非常非常大的傷害那事實上我相信從今年應該是一月份一直到現在部長跟我其實都持續有跟學會這邊做溝通就是說"},{"start":12821.011,"end":12850.013,"text":"也希望學會這邊當然我們還是對於事件的調查以及後續法律上所賦予的相關的權利這個我們尊重但是我們也希望學會要能夠理解這是一個非常重要的影響到醫師生育而且它在醫學倫理上面甚至對於我們年輕醫師是一個很大的傷害的事件那我們也不斷的跟學會這邊溝通希望學會可以了解跟注意到不論是在性別的敏感度上面或社會的敏感度上面"},{"start":12850.413,"end":12870.92,"text":"要有更積極的處理因為記者揭露了這個會訊還有他們即將出國您是否今明兩天也會做一些動作其實我上禮拜就一直都在跟學會這邊說請他們要能夠注意到這件事情大家對於整個因為包含這整個事件的受害者也是我們自己的"},{"start":12871.88,"end":12895.198,"text":"成員是我們自己的會員所以我想請他們要能夠注意到相關我想在學會的甚至是理見室也要能夠理解這件事情不單純只是理事長自己一個人的事情是整個醫界整個婦產科界以及我們在前輩對於我們年輕醫師應有的詮釋上不應該的行為以及應該有的尊重我還是強調我希望學會這邊能夠重視"},{"start":12897.579,"end":12925.123,"text":"那當然這邊也是早上一些年輕醫師給我的建議因為你們之前有說你們也應該要親自到理監事會去溝通他們已經隔了四五個月沒有任何的動作但之前曾經衛福部有回函其他的委員說第一因為是人民團體你們比較難去做管理這是他們自治選出來的第二你們認為說可以先從提升醫師的自律開始"},{"start":12925.623,"end":12940.189,"text":"但這件事一般人觀感好像也蠻難接受的因為殺人放火然後跑來說我們要來提升法治的教育這件事已經蠻嚴重的可是你現在是提升醫師的自律如果提升醫生自律有效你們可能十年前就這樣做了嘛"},{"start":12941.369,"end":12966.254,"text":"年輕醫師他們是覺得台大醫院已經2025年1月25就已經在他們的官網上發布說經訪查相關人員並釐清事情始末後確認性騷擾事件成立且情節嚴重那他們早上說問我說這是另類的台灣之光嗎他還代表我們全國的婦產科醫師到國外去跟人家做交流"},{"start":12966.974,"end":12978.719,"text":"因此他們有想到了一個方法在這邊也想請次長聽聽看因為你們常常說衛福部沒有權利去管人民團體但是衛福部卻把專科醫師的甄選制度交給了醫學會大家我們都考過嘛我們要經過很嚴格的口試"},{"start":12989.67,"end":13007.525,"text":"比試或是面試還會問你醫學倫理相關的問題結果現在掌管全國所有醫師到底誰可以拿到專科醫師執照的人是台大醫院網站上認證確認性騷擾事件成立且情節嚴重這不是很荒謬嗎是"},{"start":13008.746,"end":13027.718,"text":"所以這是一個我還是再一次強調醫師這邊我們不論是現有醫師雖然是醫師身份但是他也受性平三法的管理他在工作職場上面屬於性平法性平工作法他如果是學校附屬他又是在性平性平等教育法再來性別性騷擾防治法醫師一樣受到這個規範"},{"start":13029.159,"end":13049.177,"text":"所以第一個事情當然在現有的法治的狀況之下我們希望各機關各要能夠去落實原來在性平三法中對於受害者的保障以及相關的性平調查那性平調查之後剛剛我想委員也指導了他不論是在醫師法相關懲戒的辦法裡面事實上是可以更積極來做處理這是第一個部分第二個部分其實我想委員也知道在"},{"start":13050.759,"end":13073.62,"text":"這個像這個案子因為現在您提到的是主治醫師那有些是住院醫師之前有住院醫師的案子住院醫師在受訓過程中其實他除了原有的技術的訓練有相關的手冊要求他學到什麼程度之外我相信住院醫師在受訓過程中他本身在一定應該有的不論是法律遵循或者是人格操守尤其最重要的是醫學倫理的部分他的"},{"start":13074.942,"end":13083.89,"text":"訓練醫院我們講的教學訓練醫院本來也包含具有這樣的責任而且教學訓練醫院在這個過程中他也具有這個責任來為後續能夠去參與相關專科醫師這個考試應該還有一定程度的把關是的"},{"start":13089.876,"end":13114.207,"text":"當然大家最不能接受的就是這位性侵的住院醫師爆發才發現原來理事長也是他當時的主任嘛所以他也完成了他的住院醫師訓練最後也通過了專科醫師考試所以我是想在這邊請衛福部研擬一下你們不能給人家責任可是你們又不去究責畢竟你賦予他的還真的是個蠻大的責任啊你也知道錄取率"},{"start":13115.507,"end":13119.529,"text":"可能從90%到100%不等啦 不等不等嘛 不等所以有人還是會被刷掉的嘛所以你要怎麼樣透過你賦予他這個權利去加強對我們學會的管理因為你現在看起來是沒法源你管不了他"},{"start":13133.175,"end":13150.692,"text":"好跟委员报告谢谢委员关心这件事情我们医事司正在研拟就是说当然这一次的事件比较受瞩目是因为是著名的顶尖医院然后又是这个主管级的医师那所以会受到比较多的更多的关注不过以医事司这边我们所管理的医事人员来讲"},{"start":13151.252,"end":13169.373,"text":"会发生这一类的事件不单纯只是医师不单纯只是妇产科医师所以我们正在全面盘点因为相关的法规可能会散在各医事人员的法规里头甚至有些医事人员他也可能都只是他原来的这个所谓职业伦理那一块那现在我们正在跟医师师正在整理盘点就是"},{"start":13170.033,"end":13188.646,"text":"7月份会有一个一轮的会议那在那之前我们会有一些草案或者是一些拟定就是说对学会以及我们的专级医疗人员这些都是考过国家考试的这些人员他应该有后续的一些除了现有的性平三法之外有没有在专业上面在刻意其他的责任"},{"start":13189.146,"end":13203.521,"text":"應該是說考過國家考試之後其實還有一個不管是專科醫師審查他是沒有國家考試但你已經賦予他這個權利了所以你應該要也去限制他因為這個沒有人可以接受啦早上年輕的醫師傳簡訊給我他是寫說"},{"start":13205.883,"end":13223.524,"text":"大家是敢怒不敢言因為他們就是被他審查的人其實跟委員有報告就是說包含其實我們之前有另外一個案子是別的專科醫師那也是性騷或性騷跟性侵成立我們在衛福部就特別跟相關的團體提到這樣子的醫師如果他"},{"start":13224.585,"end":13237.979,"text":"以他的名義或者是他有參與的活動是跟我們衛福部去申請經費的話基本上我們是不支持的但現在偏偏是遇到我們審查的頭他也試射這件事情所以對於專業學會內部這邊的選擇我們會來要求要特別注意再來剛剛真的滿多衛委員"},{"start":13244.545,"end":13268.513,"text":"已經問過了啦但我是想知道說因為你之前呢比如說計程車司機兒童工作者教師通通都要因為涉案被停止醫師剛講到權力不對等尤其是這兩個案例有的兩個都非常明顯都是權力不對等不管是他跟同人之間同儕之間或者是有的是醫師跟病患之間"},{"start":13270.157,"end":13293.406,"text":"這是我之前有看了很多很欣賞您的發言在台中市教師疑似權勢興造的時候您就說得非常的好沒有人想要列屋可是台中市政府4月以來該停聘的不停聘該擴大調查沒有積極調查讓台中市的父母四處詢問那接下來還有一個元能會主委的事件其實你也都記憶猶新嗎"},{"start":13296.308,"end":13318.223,"text":"當時對全市性騷擾的態度非常明確也堅定就是立即停聘停止剛剛有提到不管是這兩個案例有一個人是繼續上班兩個人應該都繼續上班所以其實如果依照現在的我們已經修訂過的性騷擾防治法13條之一事實上機關這一邊就可以停止他的原來的工作那這邊是不是要請院長回答"},{"start":13322.38,"end":13331.875,"text":"當時教授繼續上班但是修法後13條之一是可以停止他現有的對 因為他有教師的身份所以當他涉案的時候就應該要予以停職"},{"start":13334.951,"end":13355.923,"text":"當時候他涉案的時候是主任不過我們成立調查的時候他已經不是主任了所以這個就是對於陳姓醫師那對於那個黃姓醫師事實上他涉案以後已經被我們的性評委會不好意思院長停職好像跟不是主任的定義差很多"},{"start":13357.704,"end":13381.558,"text":"事實上他的他之所以能夠做那些很多都是因為他是主任那事實上我們已經判定以後我們甚至已經禁止他去接觸所有的你是說判定還是說涉案開始因為如果他是教師他是因為教師因此擁有醫師這個身份嘛對"},{"start":13382.958,"end":13404.893,"text":"對 那他教師那邊就應該要馬上停止教師的部分比醫院慢一點因為教師部分還要到學校的性評委我是說我們醫院的性評委調查以後我們就禁止他接受甚至只要他在辦公室裡面他的門都要打開的這個事實上是我們有在婦產部裡面"},{"start":13405.974,"end":13429.84,"text":"至於黃姓14他涉案以後雖然沒有停止但是我們已經禁止他獨自看病患所以有應該是說雖然沒有真正的停止但是我們有就是包括組織醫師或包括甚至在婦產部裡面他們也有規定只要他在門診裡面門都要打開"},{"start":13431.14,"end":13446.767,"text":"沒關係因為剛剛這個次長有很多答覆所以大家普遍我是反映大家的心聲啦希望您也可以在這方面從您以前的發言看起來是重視的可以做更多的著力好嗎謝謝我們就是希望可以亡羊補老快點"},{"start":13447.967,"end":13476.976,"text":"好 謝謝那對不起最後一個問題最後一個問題問次長這個是最近也是許多男性還有泌尿科醫師會重視的前總統拜登他自己揭露說他有罹患攝護腺癌而且是末期那我們都知道反正末期他的餘命真的非常的短後來我們來回顧台灣的數據攝護腺癌是唯一在十大癌症中持續發生率繼續往上升而且在男性這邊標準化發生率是排名的第三名"},{"start":13477.836,"end":13494.984,"text":"後來我去跟泌尿科醫學會調資料大部分發現也真的是末期那晚期發現餘命可能僅有5年那尤其是他有家族史發生機率又是一般人的10倍以上我今天想探討的是泌尿科醫學會他們在這邊希望我可以幫忙發聲因為我們的這個篩檢"},{"start":13498.246,"end":13527.205,"text":"可不可以納入他們如果不管是他們乖乖的去做癌篩乖乖的去做成人健檢去做老人健檢或是勞工健檢都沒有包含這個項目就是PSA的抽血除非是他花錢來做自費的健檢我們也有去回顧了一些文獻像英國他是認為有可以有其必要性有其重要性那美國的預防醫學部認為可以兩年篩檢一次這邊是不是可以請衛福部研議"},{"start":13528.546,"end":13552.735,"text":"可不可以納入五癌篩檢或是其他的謝謝委員指導這件事情因為想我們進入到高齡化社會之後那因為這是一個跟男性年齡增長有關的一個疾病所以他是不是評估納入篩檢那他的這個預算的狀況怎麼處理以及篩檢的這個效益到底如何這個部分是不是容我跟到時候民調可以學會跟我們的國健署"},{"start":13553.155,"end":13579.46,"text":"是 那我具體建議 泌尿科學會給我的建議是50歲以上希望每兩年可以篩檢一次PSA主席你覺得呢好 主席一直看我 不能再問他們是傾向用PSA我們再來跟學會這邊討論啦學會這邊 因為他還出他有包含就是所謂的他的效益以及我們應該要預算上怎麼樣編列跟落實這個部分讓我們跟學會再來討論好 謝謝 那就一個月"},{"start":13580.38,"end":13584.826,"text":"PSA是專業性非常高的所以這個是非常有效當然我期待是拿入來 接下來我們請陳北宇委員質詢"},{"start":13603.171,"end":13610.986,"text":"好謝謝蘇委員對我叫余承培余只是都二聲大家不是那麼確定怎麼念好那有請次長謝謝我們中午不休息啊我是肚子餓自己吃便當"},{"start":13617.249,"end":13643.912,"text":"好辛苦了辛苦了謝謝大家好次長我快速跟您討論我們之前追蹤衛福部的一些議題那如果您沒有接觸到相關業務沒關係就再拜託您待會去研議好嗎好是第一個是關於安置機構裡面的兒少身心狀況其實需要更多的協助之前在3月13號的時候我們曾經拜託邱部長針對原生家庭出了狀況的孩子必須要送到安置機構去的這些所謂家外安置的兒少"},{"start":13644.392,"end":13651.557,"text":"因為原生家庭出了狀況進到安置機構裡面他們除了第一時間受到照顧之外更多心理健康的支持那當時3月13號質詢之後我們知道衛福部好像在5月初有召開相關會議但是我們沒有收到相關的進度跟結論我不知道在當次的討論結論當中是什麼不過我相信既然已經有相關專家學者在研商會議給予結論我想要知道在我們之前所要求的如何增加所謂安置機構對於"},{"start":13674.091,"end":13692.442,"text":"这些原生家庭脆弱的孩子给予更多心理健康的支持当天的会议结论现在有机会跟我们说吗还是说还在研议中手上有相关的会议结论好那现在委员做个报告也非常谢谢委员关心因为这是非常脆弱而且是很少数的孩子但是我们一定要顾虑到这些孩子的需求是"},{"start":13692.762,"end":13716.844,"text":"那在我們上次的這個會議上面談到大概有幾個比較簡單的部分跟委員先報告就是說第一針對特殊需求的兒少我們要去發展分級分類的照顧模式那當然希望在機構裡面能夠去調整照顧人力跟資源的配比第二個部分就是說他這中間可能我們還是要希望能夠發展一些比較簡易的評估工具讓他在安置初期就能夠先知道哪幾個孩子可能我們要先給一些特殊的照顧"},{"start":13717.645,"end":13736.942,"text":"第三个部分在专业人员这边当然我们第一个部分是希望继续督导地方政府来持续精进而少安置单位的专业人员培训那而且第二部分希望这些机构第一个事情是来跟我们的医疗机构能够有医疗系统能够有一个连接也就是说基本上是建立他们的需求假设有绿色通道这个是所谓绿色通道的"},{"start":13737.042,"end":13738.503,"text":"在相關專家學者會議上他們有提出這個建議有沒有機會往這裡發展"},{"start":13766.015,"end":13792.637,"text":"我跟委員先報告第一個部分就是說現在在機構內能夠讓我們專業的心理師或諮詢心理師他能夠來做這個業務做職業登記的部分的話他做外展做職登是可以對我知道但是如果是要他專責在內部就是說在機構內部專責來進行服務的話現實上面來講當然如果他要機構內他要變成是符合我們的這個心理師職業"},{"start":13793.558,"end":13812.319,"text":"没错职业登记他如果符合职业登记我们当然可以允许但是成本上面来讲可能对机构来说会有点大因为他做了一个机构那他可能内部服务他应该是做内部服务的那服务量可能不足以让这个机构让他在内部的这个心理师他的足够量能那这个部分可能机构会比较有这个考量"},{"start":13812.919,"end":13835.955,"text":"這個是一個部分但是我的意思是說如果衛福部可以先開這個可能性讓機構內不管是公立的機構或是私立的機構因為目前確實越來越多的孩子因為原生家庭出了狀況他不得不被送到機構去如果機構他們有辦法自籌裁員但是需要你們的法規範開了這個門讓他們在機構裡面除了透過所謂的外展方案之外"},{"start":13842.659,"end":13872.045,"text":"卫福部开这个可能性自己机构内部要聘心理师是可以的只是他心理他聘了心理师如果心理师这个心理师他要以职业登记为心理师的服务的话那这个机构要去申请职业登记对但是因为现在的心理师是不行的对那这个设置标准在他内部的设置标准怎么样可以去调整是不是可以符合哪些细节可以处理我们再来后续跟委员这边去对还有需求的团队是不是来跟我们讨论一下我们把他的设置标准看他能不能符合设置标准好不好"},{"start":13872.125,"end":13892.192,"text":"所以次長的建議是一個是我們先跟這些機構對話聽聽看他們目前的需求是不是如同我們辦公室所收集到資訊是這樣那再來透過跟心理師學公會的討論跟這些安置機構討論不管是你認為需要透過個案申請還是衛福部給一個公開的函說明符合心理師法情況下這些機構可以成為心理師職業機構對不對對"},{"start":13893.632,"end":13908.873,"text":"因為現在如果他是外展或報備資源他現在是已經可以運行我們也盡量讓這個部分可以運作但是如果他這個安置機構內部自己就要去設置心理師的這個服務的機構的話那他自己內部要這個機構的設置要符合我們的設置標準"},{"start":13909.774,"end":13933.281,"text":"因為在機構內還有設置標準他才提供的就是我們心理師法所規範的心理師的服務這個我沒有疑問我沒有要你們放寬這個標準我認為是跟更多的討論跟溝通因為目前他們所能夠執業的機構是醫療機構心理治療所心理諮商所其他經主管機關認可之機構所以我們希望主管機關也就是衛福部在這個議題上可以開始考慮跟這些安置機構對話就是安置機構"},{"start":13934.401,"end":13957.93,"text":"是沒錯我們來協助他配合符合我們的設計標準這個議題我們辦公室會再持續追蹤那看起來確實還需要一些討論不過很感謝你們已經召開相關會議從我們3月13日諮詢到現在第二個是關於這些機構裡面還有非常多特殊需求而造的困境一個是剛剛次長你有快速提到所謂他們要去就診的時候可能一次需要兩三位機構的人力共同"},{"start":13958.87,"end":13978.264,"text":"去看診而且看診的科目可能很多時間很長需要一整天的時間那目前安置機構希望衛福部可以協助醫院設立所謂綠色通道減少就醫的等待時間我知道目前有一些縣市的早療評估我們用早療這個概念來看已經有綠色通道像新北"},{"start":13978.644,"end":13997.883,"text":"那衛福部有沒有機會跟地方設政單位討論針對這些安置機構的孩子外出就醫也可以設置綠色通道當然還需要時間研議我知道有沒有機會往這裡去討論我們其實一直都有在補助醫療機構去辦理嚴重情緒行為障礙者精神醫療就醫障礙改善方案好那我們把"},{"start":13999.924,"end":14023.45,"text":"這個114年到現在的話我們總共有15家醫院在辦理尤其是針對嚴重情緒就是所謂經脹者的特別門診那還他這裡面我們當然就是跟他結合機構然後身心障礙福利機構兒少安置機構矯正學校等我們來提供外展服務不過我想委員也知道我們在做尤其是這一塊兒少的醫療資源他真的是我們也專業人員的部分是明顯的比較吃緊一點的"},{"start":14025.27,"end":14042.239,"text":"那所以我們不論現在在新建室這邊我們是持續來會支持醫療機構來做這樣子的服務那我想很多的機構他們也都如果說他跟安置機構有配合的這個機制的話那在內部他可以產生出這樣子的一個協助剛剛次長你說的都對"},{"start":14042.799,"end":14056.094,"text":"但是我要跟次長報告現場第一線的實務是大部分現在有提供你剛剛說不管是綠色通道或是嚴重情緒行為精神醫療就醫障礙改善計畫這些都是在公立的機構目前有非常多私立的機構其實承擔了"},{"start":14057.796,"end":14057.956,"text":"好 最後一個"},{"start":14077.139,"end":14093.599,"text":"机构里面现在照顾量能不足的问题我们希望可以协助机构发展所谓的分级分类让更多在照顾这些儿童的机构在你们的支持底下可以把孩子照顾得更好因为我认为凯凯案可能看见的是0到2岁的困境但事实上"},{"start":14094.659,"end":14119.531,"text":"遠離這個年紀之後很多孩子從原生家庭被接出來我們希望在第一時間提供他們更好的照顧不管是身心健康或是生理的議題上所以我也這邊要拜託衛福部我們先把問題拋出來這是第一個再來很多這些機構的工作人員他們其實長期的壓力非常非常大我們有沒有機會提供更積極的心理健康支持方案給這些在照顧孩子們的社工也好機構工作人員督導"},{"start":14120.171,"end":14144.169,"text":"更多的喘息服務當然我知道需要討論需要時間我先把問題拋出來謝謝委員注意到我想助人者的支持跟助人者後續的協助也是一個非常重要的方案對好那最後今天其實很多委員提到外聘獨老的事情我就簡單的說而且我今天早上聽了很多委員的質詢確實在相關制度上我們需要更多的精進跟討論因為目前看起來行之多年的方法大家認為有檢討的必要那我認為我想後續會服務你們會在這個部分精進對嗎"},{"start":14149.892,"end":14158.155,"text":"是好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝次長謝謝委員謝謝陳委員謝謝次長來接下來我們請郭育晴委員質詢好謝謝主席有請次長好社家署其實也可以一起好是我們請社家署委員好"},{"start":14177.902,"end":14204.21,"text":"市長好我想今天早上其實我也聽了很多大家在詢問關於凱凱案的相關的外部督導的這個問題那也有很多的委員他們的一些疑問我想剛剛就是在整個所有的質詢過程當中其實應該也得到了一個解釋就是外部督導跟內部督導其實基本上是兩種不同的概念雖然就是大家都看督導兩個字就覺得外部督導"},{"start":14205.332,"end":14209.223,"text":"應該跟直接的凱凱案有相關的直接劃上等號就是應該是屬於他的責任"},{"start":14211.158,"end":14235.984,"text":"那我想這個其實是應該要說清楚講明白的那我們不厭其煩的因為今天來其實我們在告訴大家外部督導他講的是什麼樣的一個工作性質是精神上的實質的支持這些所謂的社工他們的一個教育的一個應該是說教育上的一個加強然後資源上的一個支持甚至是情緒上的一個鼓勵我想外部督導應該是做的這樣的事情"},{"start":14237.904,"end":14258.539,"text":"那就我所知其實外部督導呢當一個所謂的這個單位他們去請所謂的這個外聘的督導的時候其實他們的開會的時程一年當中了不起大概三到四次可能一季開一次這就很像公司在請一個顧問我的公司出了什麼樣的營運的狀況我需要一個專業的顧問來給我一個更好的一個方向讓我能夠在內部的內歸或者是在我的營運的狀態可以因為"},{"start":14268.125,"end":14289.455,"text":"顧問給我的一些方向跟策略上的一個提供那我可以來做精進我的理解是不是應該是這樣因為社工工作他事實上真的是面對到這個社會裡面各式各樣的面向那因應到整個社會的發展社工服務也會遇到越來越多不同他原來過去所受訓或經驗上面所沒有碰過"},{"start":14289.955,"end":14317.166,"text":"沒有碰過的東西所以我們在外都的角色裡面就像委員這邊所提到的他事實上就是包含了教育行政跟支持行政上面來給予行政上的一些工作程序的指導那教育上面事實上更加的是提升他在專業職能尤其是原來可能這位是原來在社工他過去的工作服務經驗或受訓過程中可能所缺乏或還沒有辦法所reach到的這個部分的服務這個部分的專業讓他做職能上的提升"},{"start":14317.486,"end":14345.691,"text":"好所以其實我們從這個前一陣子我們看到凱開案最後這個劉姓保姆的姊妹他們已經確定被一個是無期徒刑另外一個是18年已經是最重的刑責了那當然這個凱開案也揪出了很多相關很多的一些負面的聲浪就覺得好像要把責任推到所謂的外部督導的一個身上那我們就來看看這位真的被潑髒水然後被指栽的"},{"start":14346.771,"end":14353.635,"text":"這位外部督導他的整個所有的工作的時程從2月24號5月29號跟8月10號但記得嗎這個是2023年但這位外部督導再一次接到這位所謂這個單位他請他再來的時候其實已經是12月26號那凱凱是在12月24號的耶誕就是平安夜離開的那所以"},{"start":14375.326,"end":14388.625,"text":"在9月1號凱開才經由兒福聯盟轉介到劉姓保姆的手上其實這中間我們看到他中間其實是完全不知道有這個個案的我這樣理解對嗎"},{"start":14389.924,"end":14413.28,"text":"理論上是這樣就是說如果這個相關我們現在這個居托中心這一邊他在他的訪視輔導員或他本身的這個工作過程中他如果對於凱凱案對於凱凱或這樣的特殊處理員他有一些其他外來的資訊的需求那他當然他必須應該要來邀請他的外都的委員來給他更多的指導"},{"start":14413.84,"end":14416.323,"text":"所以如果把這個責任全部推到這位外部督導的身上次長你覺得這樣子對他公平嗎"},{"start":14429.379,"end":14444.114,"text":"多數長期以來外都的委員為什麼會願意接外都就是他們希望能夠一方面除了支持本來在業務內的社工之外也增加他們的能力協助用他的專業知識來協助整個業務的運作可以更好"},{"start":14444.534,"end":14471.32,"text":"把凱凱的案歸咎在凱凱的離開歸咎在這位外部多島的身上這公平嗎不合理因為他本來在內部就應該有內部的制度好但是我們現在看到不管是從這個地方台北市政府或者是他的應該要扛起的責任或者是台北市議員不斷的在透過媒體在潑髒水的同時啊我現在就要問了台北市政府的社會局訪視的過程"},{"start":14473.561,"end":14495.771,"text":"好那麼2023年的5月16號他訪視然後再來到了我剛講了9月1號凱開才進入到流行保姆的家中而台北市政府的社會局訪視就僅有這麼一次是9月26號那麼對於所謂的這個訪視的次數是不是非常的不夠"},{"start":14496.972,"end":14523.327,"text":"以凱凱案來講因為他也是 包含他是初養童而且他是跨縣市之間做了這樣的轉介所以其實如果訪視我們當然希望說他的這個訪視輔導員可以更高的敏感度去加強或者是在這個訪視過程中針對個案有比較敏感的部分去做一些處理好 所以回到問題的本體喔真正應該要監督機制是不是應該由地方政府要扛起權責"},{"start":14525.146,"end":14542.137,"text":"我們當然站在衛福部的立場是希望在制度跟所有整個制度的運作以及相關法規裡面來給予地方政府在相關的這個運作上面更多的支持但是我們也希望地方政府在他的權限之內能夠好好來落實他應該要有的這些服務"},{"start":14542.737,"end":14567.217,"text":"所以早上我聽到黃國昌委員他說外部督導其實沒有負責監督而是加強社工教育的意義那給予這個外部的資源的一個支持但他也說了這個台北市政府是不能免責的對吧我想委員們可能都對於督導兩個字認為有督可是他們其實比較多的這個在外尤其是外督的角色裡面主要是導跟協助"},{"start":14568.158,"end":14589.79,"text":"接下來我看到這是另外一個問題這個由台北市政府的社會局那麼他們等於外託給這個文山居託中心然後之後再委託大愛關懷協會而且它是限制性的招標那限制性的招標裡頭包含了"},{"start":14591.271,"end":14608.409,"text":"評審的委員當中有三位就是來自台北市政府的社會局那如果以剛剛以凱開的個案這中間他們只有在9月26號去探訪一次去視察一次這個社會局台北市政府社會局要不要扛起責任"},{"start":14609.127,"end":14631.693,"text":"我想社會局在這個角色裡面他們也清楚知道個案的流向以及他所委託的這個服務所以我們當然在問服務後來我們在去年也有針對這樣子的特殊個案有要求說他們應該要有一個訪視的指引那把這個部分補強起來我們當然希望地方政府尤其是這個本來就是他其實在參與在他的委員裡面的話他應該清楚的要知道好"},{"start":14632.333,"end":14658.397,"text":"那我再重複一次凱開案其實是我跟月勤委員從頭到尾關心的在去年的9月3號的時候我們成功的把他的主管機關從教育部直接改例到我們的衛福部的身上那我也是跟月勤委員兩度去旁聽包含準備庭包含審理庭關於凱開案的部分所以現在我看到的是"},{"start":14659.922,"end":14675.674,"text":"藍白啊在一昧的在往林月琴委員身上這個外部督導給予指引的這樣子的一個外部他們看到督導兩個字整個都嗨起來了我覺得是非常非常的不公平再次強調2023年的12月24號的平安夜凱凱離開了不到兩歲最後他"},{"start":14682.779,"end":14700.373,"text":"被媒體揭露是在3月11號3月18號的就在這個委員會當中所有的國民黨的委員在戶一個人那個人叫昭偉那個人就叫做王玉敏當時他還是兒福聯盟的董事他沒有利益迴避這件事情我相信大家應該記憶猶新"},{"start":14701.994,"end":14719.343,"text":"所以不要再潑髒水到真正在關心兒少而且真正在關心凱凱案的真的親力親為的委員身上把外部督導形容成變成是殺凱凱的兇手這個對於我們來講是多大的一個侮辱我再次的強調"},{"start":14720.484,"end":14747.369,"text":"台北市政府還有新北市政府兒扶聯盟有絕大的責任因為這個孩子最後得到兒扶聯盟只有一個500塊錢的冰冷濕帶所以如果大家還要繼續再潑髒水其實真的大可不必再次謝謝次長謝謝委員持續的關心我們針對這樣子的一些脆弱的孩童我們一起來努力謝謝次長 謝謝主席謝謝國務委員 謝謝次長"},{"start":14751.468,"end":14755.593,"text":"邱政軍委員改書面質詢接下來我們請黃秀芳委員質詢謝謝主席我們請次長"},{"start":14773.016,"end":14790.911,"text":"市長今天有幾個問題就是跟市長這邊討論因為暑假快到了那我們知道說現在孩子幾乎人手一機手機上面這個資訊來自四面八方我想請教就是說"},{"start":14792.492,"end":14813.504,"text":"關於孩子的這個問題就是說我們在這幾年看到這個有關這個靈病跟梅毒的這個通報數在台灣所有的法定傳染病中排名前五名那我們也看到就是說疾管署在這幾年他有做一個數據的分析就是15歲到19歲男性靈病發生率在五年間增"},{"start":14814.845,"end":14840.737,"text":"這個增加了差不多將近這個三倍那15歲到19歲女性沒讀發生率在所有這個年齡層當中是第二高的那我想請教就是說這個性病不只是醫療的問題其實我覺得這個也要從那個台灣的這個性教育著手那我想次長你也是這個婦科這個婦產科的醫師那也在第一線"},{"start":14842.478,"end":14862.928,"text":"這個職業過那我想請教就是說類似這樣的一個問題我們未來在這個衛福部要怎麼做或者是說衛福部跟其他的這個部會譬如說跟教育部要怎麼來協助讓這樣子的一個狀況能夠逐年這個傳染病能夠逐年降低"},{"start":14863.328,"end":14879.709,"text":"好 謝謝委員關心因為性傳染病事實上我們都不斷強調性傳染病它很重要的第一個最關鍵就是安全的性行為所以去在不論是教育部這邊對於性教育的部分或衛福部這邊我們不斷的有宣導安全性行為以及"},{"start":14880.389,"end":14905.105,"text":"應該要有的這一些防護的部分以及尊重對方的身體自主權這個部分我們持續都會再來繼續來推動那這一段時間的通報上升裡面在全球其實都有發現就是在COVID疫情之後有梅毒跟靈病疫情上升的現象那有一些分析認為說可能是因為疫情期間大家沒有去比較不敢去看診所以疫情之後這一個診斷才被發現"},{"start":14907.406,"end":14932.166,"text":"那再来的话就是说疫情趋缓之后那个相关人跟人之间的活动就变得比较多一点所以这些就医行为让通报事件出现那当然我们现在的资料里面在今年1到4月我们在15到19岁的临病通报的数字已经比去年下降了三成但是当然我们持续会来做这样子的一个传染病防治以及我们讲的安全性行为的一个宣导那"},{"start":14933.207,"end":14957.545,"text":"長期以來我們在性的性傳染病的防治的部分其實過去在門診不論是在泌尿科婦產科加醫科世上疾管署這邊都有一些案子就是說我們也請醫師這邊他假設有比方說他是膀胱炎或者他某些疾病可是他強烈懷疑這可能跟性傳染病有關那我們是有這樣子的方案請他們能夠更敏感的來做這樣的檢驗及早能夠診斷出可能的性傳染病是"},{"start":14961.008,"end":14983.226,"text":"其實在我們那個年代其實要教這個可能一些這個有關什麼樣的這個知識那可能都會透過有時候老師他不會直接鳴講那像現在的話我覺得可能在課堂上老師要鳴講可能也會有點困難那有的青少年他可能就透過這個網路"},{"start":14984.967,"end":14993.701,"text":"自己去探索所以我在這邊就是一方面也希望就是說未來這個衛福部跟這個教育部這邊應該針對這部分應該要應該還要再加強因為這樣的一個知識"},{"start":15000.271,"end":15014.588,"text":"也許從家庭也許是從這個教育從學校端這樣得知可是我們看到就是說現在網路世界真的是花花世界這個來自很多的這個資訊或者是這個交友軟體"},{"start":15016.069,"end":15042.922,"text":"那很多青少年他可能會想要去嘗試所以我們希望就是說衛福部針對這部分不論是你們自己去協助這個學校或者是醫院遇到這樣的事情是不是也要通報那減少我們這樣子的一個這個傳染病逐年這樣增加其實我看到這個我我也覺得說這個也許是跟現在的這個"},{"start":15044.202,"end":15066.133,"text":"交友這個交友軟體其實也是很方便也許也是主要的原因之一所以我們希望就是說衛福部跟教育部針對這一部分應該還要再來加強是 謝謝委員在性傳染病的部分因為這個是我們有要求要通報的性傳染病所以如果是確診沒讀或是臨病是本來醫事機構就要向我們通報的它是列管"},{"start":15066.713,"end":15093.217,"text":"那在如果是未成年未成年的孩子他如果是相關有懷疑就是說他可能是有在兒少權法被剝削或者是性剝削的部分的話那那個部分其實我們的通報其實就是來往後端去給相關的這個社會局或者是社會服務的部分來給他協助另外一個部分也是來協助就是說假設他本身是有性侵家暴等等在社政上面來做一些協助那不過"},{"start":15094.197,"end":15116.257,"text":"委員所關心的通報的部分我們也要很謹慎處理因為長期以來擔心的事情就是說假設這些年輕的個案來到臨床那醫師診斷後的通報程序如果是有發現就一定要怎麼樣通報而且是到學校第一個部分是擔心對孩子的隱私造成影響第二個部分也擔心孩子會因為這個原因就忌諱就診"},{"start":15116.897,"end":15136.272,"text":"那如果有機會就診當然對於他的傳染病的診察或者傳染病的治療是更不好所以這個部分我們會謹慎來處理那我想請教就是說我們現在這個在那個艾滋上面有一個完善的一個追蹤機制嘛那有沒有可能就是針對這一部分也是類似用這樣的一個追蹤機制來做"},{"start":15138.774,"end":15158.943,"text":"這個其實就是在法定傳染病的限定裡面不過因為這三個它都是法定傳染病所以就像剛剛提到一個事情是我們在原來的這個法定傳染病的通報事項裡面它本來就要通報過去然後通報完之後主管機關或者是我們的機構這邊要去對於個案後續有沒有治療跟追要去做相關的追蹤"},{"start":15159.963,"end":15175.206,"text":"那但是就是說在法律裡面目前我們應該是沒有要求說要對他的梅毒跟靈病的性伴侶這一邊再去做就是後續的處理但不過我們在臨床上會鼓勵啦因為臨床上也知道說這樣子的個案他"},{"start":15177.048,"end":15195.703,"text":"這個性傳染病他一定是從他性伴侶來的所以也會鼓勵或者是要求就是說提醒這一個個案他要能夠提醒他的性伴侶再來後續做追蹤檢查比方說我們之前假設是病人他我們的病人發現有靈病那我們會跟他說我們要通報但是我們也請他下次把他的先生帶來"},{"start":15198.264,"end":15213.791,"text":"其實我覺得這個問題不只是說這個後端就是醫療治療這個疾病其實應該是也要在前端可能就是從社政或教育我剛剛講的這個教育方面我覺得應該也要去配合"},{"start":15214.731,"end":15229.629,"text":"正確的這個交友或者是正確的這個性行為我覺得這應該也是要從教育上面去去做另外我剛剛這個從小上就很多委員在關心就是凱凱案然後有關這個外聘督導的事情"},{"start":15230.129,"end":15250.229,"text":"其實我覺得說就像月勤委員他長期他就是在攝服這個區塊那有關兒少他就是一個督導我那天還特別問說其實如果在第一線的人或者是在縣市他沒有講出來的話其實外聘督導他根本不會知道"},{"start":15251.17,"end":15279.969,"text":"所以如果說要把這個責任怪罪於外聘督導其實我是覺得那是非常不合理的啦所以在相關的制度內部他應該要有一定程度的防範跟這個糾錯那外聘的督導其實角色事實上是給在制度內的社工或者是訪視員在他的專業職能上的提升以及他後續他如果有需要的話由這個外聘的督導來給他們在制度上面行政上面跟服務上面更好的一些建議"},{"start":15282.37,"end":15306.769,"text":"市長我今天最主要是因為暑假快到了暑假到其實所有的青少年放假其實很我們希望就是說結合教育部然後結合我們衛福部其實有很多事情需要做尤其是在暑假期間或者是說一些安全或者是其實我希望說你們能夠再加強讓這樣的一個傳染病能夠逐年降低"},{"start":15306.869,"end":15321.158,"text":"我想我們會提醒包含疾管署跟國健署在這段期間尤其暑假到了再做一些宣導讓大家能夠重視到這個傳染病防治跟安全性行為的重要性好謝謝謝謝黃秀恩委員謝謝次長接下來我們請洪孟楷委員質詢主席謝謝麻煩請林次長次長見"},{"start":15341.304,"end":15364.63,"text":"市長好 本席比較關心另外一個部分是針對說前兩天新北三峽有發生這個重大的車禍那交通部在昨天已經有講到是說要把現行的高齡換照從75歲條降到70歲那並且還要再針對這個不管是體檢或是這一些制度有一些相關的一個措施那以比較專業的考量來講因為"},{"start":15366.03,"end":15388.3,"text":"不管說這一件三峽新北三峽的案件到底他是不是高齡者的這個開車的一個狀況因為現在有更多的訊息或是新聞看到他有可能是肇事逃逸但不管怎麼說這都是天理藍絨也都是大家沒有辦法接受可是拉回來我們現在比較討論的是因為我今天早上有看到您也受訪講到交通部有沒有找衛福部來提供相關的資訊如果未來"},{"start":15389.04,"end":15404.648,"text":"要調降到70歲那我們有什麼樣的一個協助比較專業的評估是評估這個人到底能不能適合來做這個開車的一個部分謝謝文官先生我想這個案子我們都非常非常難過那到底這個事件發生的原因我們就尊重調查對檢調現在正在調查"},{"start":15406.189,"end":15434.052,"text":"不過在衛福部這邊的角色當然我們會全力來協助交通部也就是說交通部這邊事實上對於他在考他應該說駕照的合法以及哪些人他要剝奪他的駕照這件事情過去其實除了年齡之外也有其他的條件那所以衛福部這邊會以提供專業上的意見來讓交通部做參考對 因為現行的換照制度75歲是只要提供所謂的體檢報告跟衛師制報告那就可以來做一個換照"},{"start":15436.074,"end":15459.511,"text":"將來有沒有什麼樣考慮是可以再做更精進專業的一個評估甚至交通部有提到所謂要實地演練啊但我今天問交通部部長交通部長也說三個月內會給我們相關的指引所以這三個月可能也會要請衛福部這邊來協助什麼樣的一個實際演練是高齡者他駕車必要一定要有靈活的一個判斷或是靈活的一個掌握能夠讓"},{"start":15460.752,"end":15475.593,"text":"行車的安全是可以有保障的我們會根據國外的一些例子以及對於就是生理或者是精神上的能力在交通判斷上面的科學數據來給交通部做評估"},{"start":15476.294,"end":15504.088,"text":"那我們就期待衛福部也要提供相關的專業好不好那另外一點拉回來今天召委感謝有排這相關的案件但是我其中特別大家也要針對就是台大醫院的2021年發生這個黃姓醫生的性侵犯性侵猥褻的案件我想釐清幾個部分因為今天早上我有看到也是有相關的詢答講是說2.5個月裡面的兩個半月內台大醫院其實就內部做了懲處是不是"},{"start":15505.098,"end":15533.134,"text":"呃是不是請台大台大院長是離開了來院長還在是啊是好那但是為什麼會沒有報社會局而是呃為什麼只有報社會局而沒有報衛生局咧依照法規來講他這是呃性騷案件好所以他通報是通報衛生呃通報社會局但是這是依照哪一個法規醫師法應該是應該沒有這應該不是醫師法這應該是性騷的防治法不是但是針對醫師法因為他是醫師嘛醫師法"},{"start":15535.955,"end":15563.58,"text":"跟我們報告就是說我想我們對於性騷或者是性侵等等的法規我們在性平三法裡面包含性別工作平等法性別平等教育法跟性騷的防治法那性別工作平等法跟性別平等教育法它事實上是在學校這邊要有性平相關的裁處以及性別平等工作法這邊是它的職場好那這兩邊如果是教育系統的它之後調查完之後是送教育部如果是在職場的"},{"start":15564.56,"end":15586.457,"text":"好 職場這邊的話 那它事實上就是通報地方機關機關市長你拉遠了我們現在針對個案 這是個案也可能是通案我先不針對說台大醫院或是任何的醫院可能都有可能發生那樣的情況那為什麼會在醫師法裡面第25條有相關的一個規範是 如果說有下列情況的話醫師公會或是主管機關是可以依附做懲戒的其中第四款"},{"start":15588.048,"end":15612.021,"text":"今天早上答詢的時候回復講是說因為要經判審判刑確定之後我們今天沒有這樣說我剛剛看到媒體報導我們今天沒有這樣說我們一直都沒有主張說他就是醫師法那五款都可以使用是沒有錯所以說我現在講的是說第二款是判刑確定但是有第四款是如果說執行業務違反醫學倫理他就應該要受懲處嗎"},{"start":15613.722,"end":15627.588,"text":"這個部分就是我們希望包含了工會或者是違反醫學倫理以次長違反醫學倫理什麼樣的樣態什麼樣的形式違反醫學倫理有非常多的樣態那其中比較明顯的"},{"start":15629.949,"end":15657.265,"text":"這次這幾個案件他在看病人的過程中利用他照顧病人的過程對病人進行猥褻或者是騷擾這本來就是違反醫學倫理是他也違法那另外有一些醫師在整個執行過在他的這個執行業務的過程裡面譬如說他有對於病人的這個不當的言行或者我們講的依照他的因為病人對他的這個信任而進行了不應該有的行為都是在所以你是中央儲管機關你講非常明確嘛"},{"start":15657.705,"end":15675.617,"text":"利用醫病關係圖利包括性騷擾或性侵病人這都是違反醫學倫理嘛那如果說違反醫學倫理而剛剛也提到在這個案件裡面台大醫院內部2.5個月就已經有做出相關的一個懲戒但是他沒有送衛生局"},{"start":15676.764,"end":15689.483,"text":"所以我們它只有內部的行政作業然後它是送通報給社會局台大這邊是依法通報啦但是我們也希望說因為這違反醫學論理只有醫師法25條啊所以我跟委員說啊我們也認為我也認為醫師這邊那醫病關係對於99%"},{"start":15693.228,"end":15721.734,"text":"我都姑且我也都相信我也願意相信99%的醫師都是好的醫師都是正常醫師都是遵守醫學倫理但我們不能讓少數的害群之馬那少數的害群之馬他們做了或是說他們犯了這樣的一個過錯之後應該要成應該該怎麼做就要怎麼做所以在這個流程上我們全力支持不論是醫師公會或者是這個機構內的這些醫院的主管等等他都應該要能夠向地方衛生局來提出要求這個醫師進入懲戒委會"},{"start":15723.194,"end":15748.705,"text":"所以說在這個案件我想我們利用個案來防止後面通案的一個發生就未來像這個案件是不是醫院裡面如果說有因為性騷擾性侵害而開了院內的委員會確定把他調職以外你就應該要通報衛生局目前的法規如果在法律裡面來講他的權責往上是通報社會局法律就已經有啊就是一支法25條啊一支法25條第四款不就是告訴你說你"},{"start":15750.721,"end":15771.172,"text":"執行業務違背醫學倫理由醫師公會或主管機關移送懲戒我們支持他們移送懲戒我們也希望大家一起來建立這樣子的一個專業道德移送懲戒所以我現在講的就是說在針對這個案件我想台大醫院是國內的龍頭我們尊重"},{"start":15772.392,"end":15799.887,"text":"其他的醫院我們也都認為99.9%的醫師都是好的都是正常的都是良善的但是不要有那個少數的害群之馬所以我們才講是說當今天發生院內如果說有發生性騷擾性侵害的一個狀況院內自己來做調查完畢之後就應該要通報除了社會局還有衛生局我們希望醫師我們希望醫院調查完之後他可以去做這個診檢您是主管機關不只是希望你現在應該要去要求委員他依法可以你應該是"},{"start":15801.479,"end":15829.266,"text":"他依法可以在這個案件上面是不是沒有他依法可以但是就是到了事情已經判刑後我們才知道這件事啊有個報告委員就是說他在調查過程所以民事長您講到了一個名言嘛我也其實你講這個名言我覺得是我可以接受你說衛生局不會通靈所以如果說沒有人來報案的話衛生局不知道所以他沒有辦法開罰但現在我們就講的就是說主管機關要負起責任它是社會安全網的一環就是環環相扣所以"},{"start":15831.247,"end":15857.225,"text":"應該未來 為什麼大家會覺得白色巨塔裡面比較官官相護就是大家會認為說在這件事情上面明明已經兩個半月醫院就已經做出了院內的一個調查並且把這個醫師給調離了可是他持續的看病然後他沒有受到醫師法25條第4款的一個處罰沒有去送懲戒所以衛生局不知道那衛生局不知道他就沒有辦法做後續的處理"},{"start":15858.72,"end":15881.604,"text":"所以我們希望我們也拜託工會跟機構他是可以做成績你是主管機關你有權限你不能只是希望怎麼會到時候你好像是路人夾一餅丁委員我想澄清這件事那經過這一次這樣的討論之後我們發現一個盲點就是因為醫生在執行職務的時候他看病病人對病人為性騷擾然後醫院直接做調查"},{"start":15886.005,"end":15914.244,"text":"調查之後按照法律規定他要送當地的主管機關也就是社會局剛才院長也這樣講那社會局要成立一個審議會去審議他的行為是不是就構成性騷擾那這個行為確定之後那我們之後會做的一件事做行政這個協助會把這個確定的公文給衛生局那衛生局自然知道了這件事"},{"start":15916.505,"end":15940.47,"text":"請問您是我是保護福斯保護福斯張市長市長你講的其實市長我再麻煩您回來就是說其實我覺得這不衝突是沒有錯你其實通報可以一起通報因為院內已經做成了你的調查的一個結果所以說你通報你社會局所謂的這個性騷擾的主管機關但另外一個部分你的醫師法也有相關的機關是衛生局是"},{"start":15941.97,"end":15960.364,"text":"所以照理講就是未來如果說有類似的案件我們都不希望再發生我們也要求因為這樣的態度的問題告訴所有醫師們你如果說好好的做事好好看病不會有任何問題但是不要違反醫學倫理的行為這個是國人所關心的剛剛其實我們社長這邊講到就是他跟社會局通報之後社會局這邊我們會讓他長出一個機制過去衛生局那是現在沒有嗎這個東西要長出來但是我說現行的狀況是"},{"start":15973.003,"end":15984.278,"text":"一個是現行的狀況讓他從社會局連接到衛生局一個是現行的狀況更簡單就是當任何一個醫院做完內部調查之後他主動通報兩個單位一個社會局一個衛生局這樣就可以了啊"},{"start":15987.603,"end":16007.425,"text":"我們用主管機關告訴所有現在我覺得很簡單的事情你是主管機關你直接告訴我們全台灣的醫院都是說未來你用這樣的事情你應該有一個SOP而其中SOP就是要這樣做報告委員我們會今天已經有決議所以我們會再發一次函通知包含地方的主管機關跟各工會"},{"start":16008.666,"end":16033.189,"text":"然後落實辦理機制當然也希望接下來在懲戒的會議裡面這些在懲戒委員會的這些委員們可以考慮到現在的社會對於這些事件的關注給予適當的懲戒是 因為法令已經在那邊了但是不能因為法令在那邊但是它卻沒有嚇阻作用或是讓大家外界覺得是有關關相護的感覺好嗎謝謝市長"},{"start":16038.035,"end":16043.277,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員 謝謝次長那接著我們請張祺凱委員質詢大家好 主席 親愛的林次長委員好"},{"start":16067.262,"end":16085.071,"text":"市長你什麼時候知道林業勤林惠玲是凱凱案這個案子仿事社公司的督導應該是前一段時間立法院這邊講出來的凱凱案老講現在今天談起來心都還很疼"},{"start":16086.556,"end":16111.486,"text":"心都還很疼現在大家覺得很意外的是林月琴明明是外部的這個督導她應該是第一時間應該是很快知道凱凱被售內而死這個案子可是呢她一直默不作聲就我了解月琴委員好像在2023年底還是2024年初她就跟幾位委員很關心這個案子"},{"start":16113.789,"end":16132.038,"text":"大家疑問的是說過了三個月媒體報導說那時候的國民黨立委王玉敏他是俄福聯盟的董事那時候他已經被迫要辭職了當天民進黨還有十多位的立委到衛環委員會這邊來杯葛議事大家一定有印象嘛林業勤林委員也是其中之一他安靜從容地坐在這邊而且做了質詢"},{"start":16143.53,"end":16153.235,"text":"他一副還是以專家自居大家在問的是一個凱凱案的社工園的外部督導他盡了什麼樣的責任第二個 當民進黨圍剿王一鳴的時候你那一群不曉得他的責任也很重嗎今天台灣民眾黨沒有要向民進黨"},{"start":16172.369,"end":16197.879,"text":"那要去圍剿王毅民或者去圍剿當初推動壯世代的吳春城吳春城為了解決55歲以上的年長者希望有更好的生活有更好的這個工作也解決我們少子化缺工的問題也希望推動壯世代這個產業他在民進黨的"},{"start":16201.96,"end":16219.573,"text":"杯葛抹黑之下他為了自清為了保住他的壯士代他選擇了辭去立法委員名字現在大家最要問的林業勤啊林業勤到現在盡了什麼責任台灣民眾黨不會像民進黨這樣去圍剿林業勤可是"},{"start":16229.468,"end":16250.114,"text":"站在人民的角度來看至少兩個問題要解決啊一個是凱凱案為什麼這麼悲慘的事情會發生我們整個社福的制度面裡面出了什麼樣的大問題這是第一個第二個重要的林內勤的角色他到底要負責怎麼樣的責任我要請教次長林內勤到現在都還是"},{"start":16260.385,"end":16269.161,"text":"淨堅基金會的董事淨堅基金會多年來拿了很多包括衛福部的案子標案對不對"},{"start":16270.992,"end":16299.248,"text":"這個我們剛剛今天委員有質詢到基金會那基金會這邊我們都是來接基金會來跟我們申請的案子那根據採購法委員會這個應該是立衝法這些基金會來跟我們申請或者是來跟我們標案他們必須要提出當初民進黨在指責其他人的時候是不是講這就是在利益迴避老實講吳春城非常生氣說有人把他跟林業勤這個案子拿來對比"},{"start":16300.66,"end":16326.838,"text":"可是老實講你如果真的要拿來對比你如果講無尊整個利益迴避的這個問題林業勤這個案子嚴重100倍以上更清楚更多的案子而且是大家到現在喔林業勤到現在還是進監基金會的這個董事這是第一個問題第二個我要問你了他為什麼可以一個人身兼那麼多職他是督導又是講師又是評鑑委員評鑑演的這個委員"},{"start":16330.734,"end":16355.953,"text":"委員你是在哪一個單位我說你現在新北市跟台北市都提出來了對不對你在衛生部這麼久你也當過立委對不對我沒有任何委員市長除了林燕瓊之外有一個人是負責社工員當督導的又是講師又是評鑑員的委員嗎有嗎你印象中有一個嗎我們在醫界事實上蠻常會有又是醫師又是評鑑委員然後他本身可能又是某一些機關的評鑑的督導"},{"start":16358.296,"end":16360.506,"text":"那也是一些包含指導的講師你覺得這樣"},{"start":16363.001,"end":16378.893,"text":"一個人申請這麼多詞是合適的嗎沒有這個衝突嗎委員我們只能今天最近這一兩個禮拜有多少的專家學者跟民意代表出來提醒這一點了你們也是做一個改革嗎委員我只能就包含立衝相關的社福團體也應該這樣嗎社福團體來跟衛福部申請經費或者是標案那我們也要求社福團體依照我們剛剛講立衝的法他們要揭露他們內部的一些相關是不是有立衝的部分衛福部在看"},{"start":16392.603,"end":16393.566,"text":"談連王燕銘的時候談吳村長不是這樣回答吧這是嚴重的一個雙標"},{"start":16400.516,"end":16424.492,"text":"我要強調我剛講過了我們不會像台灣台灣民眾黨不會像民進黨這樣圍剿任何的立法委員我們要的是一個公道制度破洞了趕快去找制度面把它補起來第二個個人該負的責任要負起責任這樣才是個良善的台灣社會有問題解決有辦法解決問題的台灣社會所以有具體的要求"},{"start":16426.57,"end":16454.178,"text":"是不是林烈祺應該馬上辭掉淨堅兒童安全文教基金會的董事還有台少門副董事長副理事長這個職務這些都是民間團體民間團體衛福部這邊他們內部的董事成員那我鄭重的呼籲林烈祺林委員你好好去思考這個而且我也呼籲民進黨不只不要雙標你不要繼續包庇形同縱容"},{"start":16455.734,"end":16468.821,"text":"台灣人民都正在看這麼悲慘的一個凱凱案到底要怎麼去捕破網不要有這樣的悲劇在發生有人該負責的應該肩負自己的責任我沒有像民進黨那麼狠那麼毒圍毆"},{"start":16474.011,"end":16490.763,"text":"其他立委的時候逼迫人家要請辭還要告人家我們現在只是從制度面從個人的這個責任請民進黨也不要再包庇請你也請林委員好好面對問題面對你自己的責任解決問題 謝謝好 謝謝張委員 謝謝次長那接下來我們請換雲委員質詢"},{"start":16506.067,"end":16507.748,"text":"有請次長我也好 次長好今天我是要關心台大婦產科的事我本來以為我今天要問部長因為我知道次長都有表達相關的意見不能每次性別相關都叫女性首長出來這樣很不公平今天只有次長可以問好險部長到WHO去了"},{"start":16532.889,"end":16551.074,"text":"這樣子 當然了解那其實今天蠻多委員有關心到黃姓前住院醫師案那我知道衛福部剛剛有表達說你們會發函給各地公會強調不需要判刑確定就能送懲處那我今天其實是想用我的投影片來問"},{"start":16553.575,"end":16568.828,"text":"這其實是D案2023年的鄭姓醫師案次長應該知道當時是我辦公室接到陳情他知道這位醫師至少性侵或性猥褻六位女性然後2024爆出的陳姓醫師現在還是婦產科醫學會理事長"},{"start":16574.232,"end":16588.124,"text":"他被控性騷六位就是女醫師同仁然後今天很多人關心的黃姓前住院醫師性侵病人我覺得我想問的是台大婦產科都是台大婦產科"},{"start":16591.107,"end":16607.785,"text":"三年連環三大案這個是因為其中的性騷也是情節嚴重的權勢性騷然後另外兩案都是性侵案為什麼台大婦產科三年可以報三案到底是內部"},{"start":16608.706,"end":16629.794,"text":"我覺得是不是除錯機制或者是組織文化出了什麼問題因為婦產科對我們來講更嚴重因為婦產科他本來就會涉及到病患的性隱私高度的敏感那專業倫理如果出了或者組織文化出了嚴重的問題我想社會信賴也會崩解所以我今天"},{"start":16631.034,"end":16651.556,"text":"因為剛剛已經有人講過案情了我就不再重複黃姓一失案就是一審判決出爐大家已經知道了比較少提到的剛剛有一位委員有問到就是我接到的陳情人就是這位陳姓李市長權勢性騷被台大醫院調查去年六月就是情節重大權勢性騷對多位"},{"start":16653.778,"end":16663.088,"text":"台大教評會讓他三年不得聘任為教師那這樣的人 不知道次長您覺得他適合擔任婦產科婦產學會的理事長嗎您個人會認為他適任嗎我自己也是婦產科醫學會的會員"},{"start":16669.375,"end":16685.101,"text":"是我知道所以您感觉这样子的一个事件事实上深深的伤害了不论是妇产科医师或者是全部的医师在民众的信任这件事情我想委员我们一起都处理过性平三法法律事实上是所有道德的最低底线"},{"start":16685.481,"end":16702.644,"text":"那醫師身為專業工作者也接受在患症學分裡面應該有的性別學分甚至我相信醫師有足夠的專業能力以及他的知能知道他對於病患之間應該有的行為所以這件事情事實上是真的非常不可接受"},{"start":16703.445,"end":16726.464,"text":"所以你也不能接受他繼續擔任理事長而且還要帶隊出國那陳情人跟受害人可能是好朋友甚至是受害人因為他們都不願意公開揭露他的訊息那我真的覺得作為一位長期關心性評我對婦產科學會這種處理方式覺得不可思議我也覺得相關的機制應該是哪裡出了問題當然台大"},{"start":16729.286,"end":16735.849,"text":"婦產科醫師的部分我想我們今天是向衛福部請命基層醫師的公會也都已經發聲明了我們要給年輕醫師一個怎麼樣的示範我想就幾個問題想請問因為衛福部剛剛有講你們會發函給各地公會"},{"start":16747.754,"end":16776.586,"text":"可是這裡面台大醫院說他一月就已經發函不只是衛福部地方主管機關醫師公會所以台北或新北衛生局到底有沒有一副懲戒醫師公會婦產科醫學會有沒有懲戒衛福部在今天之前有沒有追蹤監督然後台大醫院把他停病三年為什麼還可以到其他醫院去任職那最後一個謝謝次長林靜次長已經回答說他不適任了那"},{"start":16777.106,"end":16805.075,"text":"我自己是也想問的是我們的醫師法跟相關的懲戒辦法我仔細讀了一下好像完全沒有說實現多久內要調查完畢懲戒完畢開完會那也只有給相關當事人什麼20天之內要回應等等這一些那懲戒辦法是不是應該要做修正也希望那個林建義次長那今天您就全權代表衛福部"},{"start":16805.615,"end":16809.658,"text":"那既然部長人在WHO是不是就能夠承諾大家你們會修正檢討然後剛剛這幾個單位都能夠監督他們謝謝委員關心我想我們在這個事情尤其是黃姓婦產科醫師這個案子我們是到判決之後"},{"start":16823.587,"end":16840.918,"text":"那判決看到了之後我們立刻行文給地方衛生局希望他們能夠來一副懲戒所以在衛福部這邊我們的動作知道的時候是這個樣子那至於說現在的資訊是就我們所了解地方衛生局接下來應該是預計在七月份六月份"},{"start":16842.319,"end":16867.872,"text":"會開懲戒那針對我們最近所關注到的三位婦產科醫師來開懲戒我們也希望我今天也在今天委員會再一次的希望就是說在懲戒的過程之中醫界要能夠發現也能夠理解整個社會對於醫療人員尤其是醫師的倫理應有的態度那至於說在學會這邊為什麼這位台大解聘三年不能夠當教授的他還可以"},{"start":16867.892,"end":16884.862,"text":"也就是不能當醫院的醫師嗎因為這是教學院醫院呢其實這個就是理事長因為這樣學會內部當然我也跟委員報告就是我跟部長其實我們在過去這幾個月持續有跟學會這邊提到這個疑慮你們提疑慮他們還可以不處理"},{"start":16885.682,"end":16912.201,"text":"学会一再强调就是他们内部的一些规定以及包含学会说他们还要再等一些调查等等台大医院的调查全是性骚成力情节重大他们还认为没有公信力各位知道这样的东西很难有证据所以并不容易调查我觉得这是组织文化的问题不知道次长同不同意大家轻忽了然后包庇这样的医师"},{"start":16912.701,"end":16927.915,"text":"然后让一粒老鼠屎坏了让大家失去了对整个领域的信任我觉得真的很遗憾非常需要正视的一件非常严重的事情而且我也要在这个角色里面去说我认为相关的整个医界"},{"start":16929.548,"end":16943.447,"text":"除了在談到要重視或者是要保障這個所謂的當事人的權益之外也希望我們的學會跟醫界要能夠考慮到這個過程中的被害者權益這裡面的被害者甚至很多是我們自己的同事"},{"start":16944.502,"end":16961.592,"text":"以這位那個陳姓醫師來講就是受害的女醫師而且權勢地位上遠低於她所以在這個過程裡面我們也希望醫界要能夠不斷的去提醒自己這個過程中受害者的權利是更應該要被放在優先前提"},{"start":16961.994,"end":16979.297,"text":"那今天是不是也請就是次長也能夠去關切因為我看醫師公會的聲明他們也認為台大醫院雖然給他相關的懲戒等等但是對於其他住院醫師受害人的權益其實並沒有做得很好好不好那所以次長願意修正懲戒辦法"},{"start":16979.838,"end":16997.591,"text":"我想在懲戒辦法部分跟委員報告我們事實上除了醫師之外因為我們也發現各醫事人員的職種他內部相關的倫理或懲戒都散在各個法裡面所以醫事司我們正在研議就是說是不是把這個部分全部做一個中整那讓醫事人員的行為部份能夠有一個比較明確的準則"},{"start":16998.211,"end":17008.959,"text":"那在多久之內可以給本席一個報告呢我們是不是可以在兩個月兩個月內齁那希望不要再讓這些學會公會再有任何的藉口好不好是 謝謝謝謝次長謝謝 謝謝黃衛薇謝謝次長好 接下來我們請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席 本席要請次長"},{"start":17025.641,"end":17050.644,"text":"市長好我想一早上討論大家都有一個共識病患的權益不容許有任何的大則所以在發生這樣子的性騷跟性侵害我們看到台大醫院的婦產科的這一位醫師發生了性侵的這個事件竟然還長達三年半"},{"start":17051.204,"end":17079.519,"text":"他沒有被停職或者是沒有被公佈姓名那外界都高度的質疑醫師的懲戒跟通報機制是私領的所以因此會影響病人的安全那麼所以在一整個早上本席聽起來大家都有這個共識病人的權利 病人的安全是需要受到保障那這需要怎麼保障呢目前的這個樣態因為您說台大醫品"},{"start":17080.279,"end":17103.205,"text":"那個已經評定了過程性騷之後呢應該要主動的通報台北市衛生局更說衛生局不會用通靈的方式知道台大發生什麼事那但是台大說台大院長說了性騷的主管機關是社會局所以他們當時依法去通知社會局"},{"start":17104.065,"end":17119.995,"text":"那剛剛你也特別說了你們是到判決決定就最近你們才會知道才開始要啟動所以這樣整個過程讓人高度的一個質疑也就是我們在整個懲戒跟通報的機制它是失靈的"},{"start":17121.096,"end":17135.997,"text":"換句話說在調查懲戒停止的時機它的法規以及在整個程序明明有不足的這個部分所以我們看到這個事件可以看它說目前的制度它是失靈的"},{"start":17136.818,"end":17154.13,"text":"他的失靈導致醫界行政單位從醫院從地方成中央都好像在踢皮球那麼有一個怠惰不負責的這個樣態產生所以本席不希望三方都在踢皮球本席舉例"},{"start":17156.051,"end":17173.013,"text":"老師教育部他擬定了校園性別事件通報以及調查的處理程序如果校園發生了這樣的事件那他必須要在24小時之內他要完成校安的通報他必須要在24小時"},{"start":17174.415,"end":17193.422,"text":"如果行為人是教師 他更要通知教品會先暫停停聘 接受調查所以剛剛我也聽到市長你所說的這個是非常需要重視的你認為目前的問題在哪裡我們現行的醫師懲戒委員會"},{"start":17196.503,"end":17221.802,"text":"啟動時機沒有明確的一個法律規範那是不是我們應該要來修法要來明定讓整個的事件能夠更有效能來 請說明好 謝謝委員我想第一個事情當然我們希望是說現有的醫師法跟懲戒辦法它不論是知悉這件事情之後這個學會 公會或者是這個機構它事實上可以提醒它的主管機關就地方的衛生局來"},{"start":17222.483,"end":17223.063,"text":"那請問 那目前沒有這麼做"},{"start":17242.535,"end":17250.098,"text":"那怎麼辦呢請問你們要不要去整合把這個規範更明確在校園裡頭必須24小時就立即啟動然後通知如果行為人是老師的話就是現有的這個性平三法當然它內部在機構內部機關內部它有它的這個性平的調查機制這個部分我們會希望我們會"},{"start":17267.006,"end":17292.554,"text":"再次的宣導希望大家能夠遵守這個部分第二個部分就是我們剛剛今天在委員會上已經強調就是說醫師我們在衛福部這邊會再發函給各縣市的醫師公會以及就是說我們的機構這邊再一次的強調依照目前不論是性平三法或者是在醫師法跟醫師懲戒辦法內部希望大家主動的來提起這樣子對於這樣不應該發生在醫界的言行來夠積極的來做處理"},{"start":17294.014,"end":17314.71,"text":"所以應該要更明定醫生醫師的醫院的這個通知不管是衛生局要啟動的這個懲戒程序要讓更執事者更加的清楚是我們希望能夠在現有的法律的制度之下能夠讓現有權責這邊能夠更清楚然後然後能夠"},{"start":17315.65,"end":17335.132,"text":"積極的來做處理這這麼大的一個爭議大家的不安心本席具體建議應該你要去盤點所有的法律所有的辦法要怎麼樣去規範出來讓執行者讓病患他都能夠非常的安心這個是應該要有一個均衡的權益"},{"start":17336.733,"end":17363.07,"text":"對不對也跟我們報告就是說因為現在大家關注的可能因為醫師的部分比較受到關注事實上醫事人員醫事人員在相關類似的事件除了現有性品三法之外他能不能繼續職業或他在他的原來職業機構內部怎麼樣去做處理這個部分我們醫事師接下來會開一個相關的會議去做開一個相關的會議把醫事人員對醫事人員都打盤進去因為現在我們看到在整個社會的氛圍他是"},{"start":17364.13,"end":17380.016,"text":"他是害怕的我們不應當有這樣的一個樣態出來所以具體去研擬你們的進行方案那接下來本期要討論要請教的就是狼獅查詢平台邱部長在接受訪問的時候他也說要建立那現在有沒有這個進度"},{"start":17381.296,"end":17400.363,"text":"這個部分因為部長現在在WHO不過我們跟醫事室這邊我們會去優化現有的醫事人員的資訊整合的這個部分好那依照目前法律可以揭露的部分我們就先行那如果還需要再做法律調整的部分我們會後面再補上後面再補上所以你們現在可以做的我們就先做"},{"start":17401.143,"end":17428.694,"text":"對 當然這個非常的必要才不會導致事件又再發生這個非常重要那你們現有的趕快做那不足的趕快補這個非常重要接下來本席要請教凱凱案外聘督導的功能到底是為何本席具體建議因為現在似乎模糊的空間很多模糊的空間很多所以本席要具體來了解也就是它的功能到底是什麼"},{"start":17429.494,"end":17448.135,"text":"他的功能到底是什麼?其實我們在原來機構內部就有他的內部的督導那來進行機構內部的整個外部督導所以在本來的內部有督導之外的外部督導他事實上是來透過他是來協助"},{"start":17450.418,"end":17475.632,"text":"機構內的督導他的在執行行政教育的部分增加我們第一線助人者就是社群協助嘛協助他的職能但是在這一些的工作上提升他的功能提升他的能力跟仿式的機制那發生這樣的一個事件大家推來推去仿式機制其實在原來機構內部就有對 已經發現重點內同的密切相關"},{"start":17477.225,"end":17501.176,"text":"跟我們報告內部訪視的制度裡面我們在去年的4月30跟5月1號我們都重新又施行了直轄市縣市政府居家托育服務中心訪視工作指引給地方政府針對他們在托育中心的訪視輔導員應該有的頻率而且這裡面我們也強調要有做分級也就是說有一些譬如說是出養啦發展遲緩"},{"start":17502.717,"end":17523.791,"text":"等特殊催加的孩童那這個部分請地方衛生局他在執行居托中心的訪視的過程中能夠針對這些比較脆弱的孩子他的增加他的訪視的頻率或他應該要有的訪視的職能目前當然我們知道這些人也都很辛苦但是我們不希望這個事件再發生所以"},{"start":17525.492,"end":17549.146,"text":"這個在我們整個的這個督導的機制要怎麼樣優化我也具體建議你們去盤點去看看哪一些可以明確可以精進好嗎 多久時間給本席報告委員其實我們去年就已經把這個部分做精進多久時間可以給本席我們那個分級訪視的這個部分是不是我們會後提供給委員好 趕快謝謝委員好 謝謝楊潔恩委員 謝謝次長"},{"start":17554.775,"end":17561.74,"text":"那許新穎許新穎委員 許新穎委員 許新穎委員不在請陳穎委員質詢謝主席麻煩請次長"},{"start":17580.494,"end":17607.972,"text":"市長好 公交人員有偏鄉離島的地域加擠地域加擠大致上如果是在離島的話就是至少每個月有7700元以上如果是在山地鄉的話則是每個月有3090元以上其他台東花蓮的平地鄉我們有東台加擠每個月只有630元"},{"start":17610.513,"end":17631.021,"text":"台東花蓮如果單純就是用山地鄉平地鄉的模式去劃分有一些地方會造成不公平的現象因為有很多的平地鄉雖然是平地鄉但是他一樣沒有像其他地方便利的交通環境"},{"start":17631.741,"end":17657.638,"text":"但是加急卻一樣只有630元喔例如像這個豐濱那不知道部長有沒有 次長有沒有去過豐濱醫院豐濱 我沒有去過就花蓮的台東交接豐濱好像還沒去過還沒去喔 有機會是 有機會可以去看看齁那因為蛤 好啊開考察你說我排還是你排"},{"start":17659.599,"end":17675.908,"text":"好我們還有很多地方要去好那這個是這樣子就是說封兵呢他是應該是全花蓮縣唯一沒有火車經過的地方那公車站呢如果按照這個加急的急速去"},{"start":17676.708,"end":17696.177,"text":"就是判斷可能有些地方它就是5到15公里就是公車站其實你要走好幾公里那個也是很遠啦所以我們看一下齁這個這張照片是豐濱醫院的正面齁那右邊我這個螢幕都沒有出來右邊是衛生所"},{"start":17697.797,"end":17720.223,"text":"對 右邊是封冰衛生所 左邊是封冰醫院那兩個單位呢 它是在同一個建築物裡面但是其實他們裡面是互通的那市長你知道嗎就是說在這個建築物裡面上班的公務人員包括這個就是醫護及行政這些等等他們上班是從左邊進去"},{"start":17722.223,"end":17741.208,"text":"到醫院那他們的加給就是630元但是從右邊衛生所的進來就沒人囉每個月加給有3090元我想這樣子一比較你看你聽了你們都在笑了謝謝委員幫我們博布利醫院爭取權益真的"},{"start":17742.148,"end":17748.018,"text":"你講到同一個建築物裡面左邊跟右邊一個630一個3090元如果你是領630的你有沒有現在覺得相對剝奪感很強對不對"},{"start":17756.522,"end":17763.306,"text":"所以理論上你們都很客氣啊都抱歉我在這裡就替你們講了理論上封閉醫院的業務絕對不會比衛生所輕鬆因為在這個封閉的這個衛生所他是負責這個衛政那醫療部分全部都是在這個到這個封閉醫院嘛"},{"start":17776.874,"end":17801.954,"text":"那甚至有時候我們台東就比較北邊的也要往封閉醫院送啊所以這個醫院跟衛生所就在同一個屋簷下但是領的地域加擠卻是兩個世界好所以算一算應該差了四倍喔那我剛剛講齁這個人事行政總署的地域加擠規定在平地鄉有很多不公平的現象那封閉鄉平地鄉630"},{"start":17804.076,"end":17829.348,"text":"那花蓮縣政府呢他們在四年前就提出了地域加擠的合理化方案送行政院並且獲得支持那封兵箱內呢它是屬於這個地方政府管理的機關那地域加擠全部改為3090元那唯獨部立醫院的封兵醫院封兵分院現在每個月還是在領630元這個市長"},{"start":17832.918,"end":17860.728,"text":"你覺得這樣對你們院內這個同仁是公平的嗎謝謝委員我想我們自己部立醫院事實上真的承擔了台灣非常重要的公共公醫的職責那尤其是花東我們非常感謝願意在花東來提供服務的這些醫事人員我們也全力來協助那這個部分應該是人種的規定那我們在衛福部這邊當然另外我們在其他的能夠給我們的醫療人員比較好的待遇的部分衛福部這邊盡力來協助"},{"start":17862.248,"end":17870.603,"text":"那但是如果是人种的规定的话当然我们也希望说人种能够考量到我们这些专业医疗人员在这边的困境那让我们有比较好的夹击"},{"start":17871.227,"end":17895.236,"text":"我想是這樣啦我覺得這個部分齁你們應該要大聲疾呼啦大聲給他叫一下啦給他叫好幾下啦我們也幫忙叫也會幫忙來協調爭取啦那所以我要請你們馬上來清查就是說在就是說這個花東地區是不是還有類似的情形這個部分是不是可以請你們一週內清查完畢"},{"start":17896.056,"end":17913.295,"text":"謝謝委員 我們請衣服會就是針對我們在不論是您剛剛所提到的原住民地區或者是這些特定偏遠地區那在相關地域加級不合理或者是已經不符現實需求的這個部分我們再整理資料給委員謝謝委員幫忙我也想請教一下就是說"},{"start":17914.757,"end":17936.938,"text":"你們一句話就是說這是人總的規定我也知道這是人總的規定但是這中間你們有沒有溝通協調過搞不好他沒有看過那個統一棟建築左邊跟右邊如果我們的人總他是在他上班的那棟大樓一個右邊進去630另外一邊3090元我看他自己棟會掉嗎"},{"start":17940.393,"end":17954.485,"text":"我們自己其實長期待在華東的這個副執行長也只能說過去大概他們就默默接受不過謝謝委員我想我們一起幹嘛默默接受我們一起來看看怎麼樣跟人種做這樣的爭取啦謝謝委員幫我們關心"},{"start":17955.566,"end":17970.099,"text":"好 那這個部分是不是就是說你們也就是如實反映給我們整理現況給我也對 你們也要爭取一下嘛是對啊 然後那個就是人家都可以提一個合理化方案嘛那你們也可以提一個不合理的檢討報告啊"},{"start":17972.001,"end":17988.68,"text":"我們想這個是地域加緊我們願意給你們做後盾謝謝委員還有之前我們公益也提到包含這個我們偏向的交通費等等我們其實部立醫院這邊事實上長期都蠻辛苦的是好那一起努力謝謝委員好那接下來我要請教那個國教署那個"},{"start":17991.107,"end":18008.101,"text":"國教署的部分上個月有很多的委員有一起召開記者會揭發了我們台東某國小的輻射幼兒園的老師對學童施暴的案件我相信你們應該都有掌握"},{"start":18011.977,"end":18038.985,"text":"就是說這個當然縣府對於相關人員的懲處都已經出爐但是呢有非常有還有一些家長就是說對於這件事情仍然存有很多的疑問那我想這些疑問主要來自於這個調查報告因為縣府所給的這個調查報告就是說他們應該是說家長收到這個調查報告他所呈現的就像這個"},{"start":18041.535,"end":18056.483,"text":"烏雲籠罩一樣黑壓壓的一片這你看得出來是什麼嗎你不如給一張白紙算了或者你給他一張黑紙那再來因為長這個樣子所以家長越看越氣"},{"start":18058.444,"end":18087.225,"text":"所以我不知道你們有沒有看過他們的調查報告有看過嗎報告委員有看過他們的調查報告那再來齁剛剛這是第一版的圖啦那幾乎90%都是遮蔽的那我們再來看一下下一張第一張絕對看不出內容啦好然後再來就是說家長反應之後得到了這個第二版這個圖那你們看這個圖有沒有覺得長得很像什麼"},{"start":18089.591,"end":18112.107,"text":"某種密碼電腦裡面的密碼是不是亂碼對不對因為在第二版的內容他把行為人證人相關人員都同用同一種方式全部把他打黑遮蔽起來我想請問一下教育部這個你們看得出來誰是家暴老師誰是小朋友誰是家長誰是證人嗎你看得出來嗎"},{"start":18113.34,"end":18136.565,"text":"跟委員報告因為現在我們就是有個調查辦法那其實就規定說這個有涉及到幼生個人身份的是用代號為之那因為現在看起來就是台東縣提供給家長的部分他是用整個責備的部分來做處理那這部分我們會再跟那個台東縣政府來就是做這個調查報告的部分來請他們做理解所以這個明明在你們的調查"},{"start":18137.885,"end":18161.714,"text":"在這個你們叫保相關人員違法事件調查處理辦法裡面講得很清楚嘛就是要把相關要把相關人員的姓名去識別化沒錯嘛但是你要用代號來取代嘛好所以這個你們到底有沒有去指導去溝通過跟這個地方縣府跟他們講到底這個要怎麼處理"},{"start":18163.53,"end":18190.911,"text":"你們到底有沒有去教他們有沒有去指導是 跟委員報告因為我們這個新修正的規定是今年4月22號實行那我們大概在前端也有透過跟地方政府的就是有修法的會議那還有我們今年的那個7月底就會辦理那個培訓那還有我們跟地方政府教育局處的這個科課長會議那都會持續的在來做這個新修正規定的宣導"},{"start":18191.431,"end":18219.272,"text":"因為既然你們四月份就已經四月份是新的規定嘛那你們遲至七月份才要去做這個講習嗎七月是針對審查小組那我們跟局處之間的規定大概因為我覺得通常你一個新的規定要上路前其實你們就應該要先做一些準備或者他在公告的同時就應該要同步很積極的做一些處理了"},{"start":18220.993,"end":18247.652,"text":"但是因為這三個月當中你看四月到短短雖然短短好像將近兩個月的時間但是它有可能發生很多事情啊所以請你們加緊腳步市公園報告我們就是會再製作那個調查報告的那個參考的格式那再提供給立法院那你們可不可以優先趕快先把這一件處理好那你們什麼時候可以先把這一件"},{"start":18249.533,"end":18266.918,"text":"因為我們最近就已經有發文給那個台東縣政府了那大概就是最快這個五月底前就會再請他們把這個依照新規定的這個現在也五月底了啦你要不要乾脆就講幾月幾號前那可以就容許我們五月三十一號五月三十一號現在還有幾天"},{"start":18268.988,"end":18286.071,"text":"今天你就重新這個報告其實你們都看過了那指導一下該怎麼怎麼用代號這應該很快吧而且他們也等很久了好那這個我們就一個禮拜內把它處理好可以嗎好好收到謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":18289.574,"end":18301.263,"text":"謝謝陳委員 謝謝次長不是不是 加一部長喔 聽嘛聽嘛 次長的聽比較好來 楊耀委員質詢好 謝謝主席主席我請教社工司 蘇司長"},{"start":18323.014,"end":18337.568,"text":"市長我們來討論幾個有關社工的問題就是說在社工的職涯上大概我們招募這麼困難大概它存在幾個問題大概普遍我們會認為低薪"},{"start":18342.03,"end":18369.535,"text":"勞務高 職涯發展沒有很大的期待性那這三個大問題 這三個困境呢公部門比較有可能著力的大概就是薪資的部分所以本席先跟你討論一下社工薪資的部分其實我們社工大概會隨公務員調薪加薪 對不對"},{"start":18371.035,"end":18390.678,"text":"那相較於過去的本薪和家籍都原本都是新臉制度可是現在我們的家籍的部分呢包括年資碩士學歷社工師指導等等我們採採取多都是採取定額的方式那會不會"},{"start":18393.595,"end":18406.406,"text":"會不會影響未來譬如說軍工教調薪的時候他定額的部分其實他是沒有辦法調的你懂我的意思嗎我的問題你能理解嗎"},{"start":18407.766,"end":18427.163,"text":"因為目前謝謝委員關心一直很關心社工的一些福利待遇那我們社工的分部他可能在民間單位那也可能在公部門那在公部門裡面有一些是公職社工師他就是跟正職的公務員是一樣的公職的不算他都跟著公務員條"},{"start":18428.504,"end":18456.432,"text":"那第二類就是約聘僱人員那約聘僱人員目前是用新典的方式沒有錯那這個部分他也是廣義的公務人員因此公務人員的加薪他也是跟著加的對就是本份的部分可以加我現在講的是我們每一年加一千塊嘛這一千塊是定額的不會隨著公務員加委員講一千塊可能是那個民間單位的是嗎"},{"start":18457.972,"end":18473.483,"text":"我們民間的社工如果他經過考核接受政府委託或是補助的社工我們目前已經有一套進階的機制那他如果考核通過一年就可以每一年加一千所以這個部分是沒有調的"},{"start":18475.258,"end":18499.913,"text":"民間社工也是有調那第二個跟委員關心的那個約聘僱的這個社工呢第一個他這群人他也是有考核的那如果考核通過呢他也是可以調整他的薪資第二個是當公務人員調薪的時候他也是公務員所以他也可以調我現在講的是非公職人員的定額的部分就每一年加一千塊的部分"},{"start":18501.619,"end":18504.561,"text":"你可能不大理解我的問題那個1000是不是固定沒有隨著那個調整固定1000 1000往上"},{"start":18523.859,"end":18526.422,"text":"市長請回座我再問一下市長市長就是說我們現在是到7年就停嘛"},{"start":18539.437,"end":18553.249,"text":"你們有沒有考慮七年以後當然假如每一年都加可能在財政的負擔上太大你們有沒有考慮七年以後就是每兩年或每三年"},{"start":18556.383,"end":18573.56,"text":"再有獎勵的方式那謝謝委員因為委員您這邊提到一年加一千那的確就是民間的社工的目前的新制的一個制度那目前為止我們的確是行政院核定的是最多可以進七次"},{"start":18574.02,"end":18593.873,"text":"就是七階但是我們目前在規劃那個商案2.0的時候我們也已經有提出來我們希望為公部門的社工的薪資在爭取的過程那我們同時也要來爭取民間社工的一個薪資所以我們已經也提出來說想要在民間社工薪資七階我們希望再增加"},{"start":18595.053,"end":18611.393,"text":"目前我們正在彙整資料跟行政院來做報告每年都加可能會有問題可是七年過後就停這個也會有一些問題所以我們會繼續爭取"},{"start":18615.379,"end":18632.876,"text":"市長我們在5月10號凱道集結了超過1萬個人他們大概提出了六大訴求我看他們裡面有一個訴求是推動訪視助理員的制度我想請教一下市長就是"},{"start":18634.184,"end":18645.441,"text":"助理現在我們沒有仿視助理員的制度對不對那仿視助理員的工作是不是就是由現在的社工在做"},{"start":18646.909,"end":18672.178,"text":"因為我大概有關心的一下齁,那這個仿事員應該是在托育這方面的仿事的工作那是不是可以由我們社家署來做一個說明?那個,呃...各位委員報告,就是我們在那個保姆的管理裡面其實是叫做仿事輔導員仿事什麼員?仿事輔導員就是仿事助理員"},{"start":18673.8,"end":18698.057,"text":"他們的訴求跟你們現在的訪視輔導員不一樣不一樣那不一樣為什麼社家署跑出來回答這個應該是社公司的吧不是因為他是整個托育業務的一部分就是說他的目的是不是在預防"},{"start":18699.99,"end":18710.52,"text":"進行預防性的訪視跟高風險家庭的追蹤報告委員其實這個案子因為我們去年就已經在4月30跟5月1號我們事實上另外針對就是訪視輔導員的功能跟訪視輔導員這邊針對特殊個案"},{"start":18716.406,"end":18730.488,"text":"他可能會有增強他的能力跟訪視評次的部分所以我們去年事實上已經重新訂定了直轄市跟縣市政府居家托育服務中心訪視工作指引那這個指引事實上就是請這個居家托育這邊要做分級的訪視跟輔導"},{"start":18731.75,"end":18761.51,"text":"那这些访视辅导员呢他事实上采取的是不预约跟安排不同的时段去访视那这个过程中假设他是特殊需求譬如说是发育迟缓的小儿童出养的儿童加外安置的儿童或者是他收治的儿童有照顾风险跟持续受伤的情况的话那这个访视辅导员他应该要增加至少他应该增加的访视次数到至少六次所以这个是去年在针对这一个居家托育服务中心的访视辅导员我们就有加强了这个部分"},{"start":18761.87,"end":18785.606,"text":"那我們能不能理解說他的訴求裡面的推動訪視助理員制度我們現在已經在做了他們這個訪視助理員制度我這樣聽起來比較像是他們可能覺得訪視輔導員不夠但是我們也在是數量不夠還是工作範圍不夠我們不清楚他提我請謝委員"},{"start":18788.092,"end":18816.028,"text":"這個凱道的這一群我們的民間友人他想要仿照瑞典有一個制度就是比較是初級預防的一個仿式助理有點像是預防性的一個服務那其實台灣沒有這個仿式助理員沒有這個制度但是我們有很多的支持性的服務方案那其實它的性質跟瑞典這個性質是很像的"},{"start":18816.348,"end":18835.278,"text":"也就是說我們現有的人力跟制度其實已經是cover掉他們現在要推動的這個制度 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的"},{"start":18836.058,"end":18858.511,"text":"我也覺得好像是像你們這樣答覆的就是說可能是名稱的問題那有沒有建立一個制度其實並不是重點重點是相關的工作到底夠不夠人力做那人力到底有沒有把工作落實好這個才是重點"},{"start":18859.251,"end":18878.856,"text":"是不是在制度內部該工作的每個職種都有好好的去處理讓他不要漏膏的這個部分在制度內部可以一個一個把那個可能的漏洞補起來對 重點大概是這樣子好 謝謝市長 謝謝主席謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝梁委員 謝謝市長"},{"start":18885.125,"end":18891.717,"text":"閻寬恆 閻寬恆 閻寬恆委員不在鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在王宏威 王宏威 王宏威委員不在"},{"start":18894.884,"end":18900.469,"text":"接下來我們請賴會員質詢謝謝主席我們這個血汗委員會等了好幾個小時才輪到花園那我請我們衛福部次長還有社家署副署長"},{"start":18917.322,"end":18939.755,"text":"市長,我想今天我們大家共同討論凱凱這一個案子那我們也充分的討論,就稱呼主席講的,他說叫我青菜公公的那我想就是說跟市長跟副署長就是做一個探討,所謂社工的一個督導跟外聘的督導,他們前者上"},{"start":18941.316,"end":18970.346,"text":"權責上其實基本上有很多的一個分工那性質上也有很大的一個差異那如果我們說社工督導是機構內的主管那外聘的督導就是機構外的一個顧問是不是這樣子呢委員這張表其實做得很清楚他我想在現實的運作狀況下大家就是像委員這樣子的分類那個等一下時間暫停主席我的電腦沒有那個螢幕"},{"start":18992.016,"end":18999.361,"text":"反正我不要問了啦 主席 借你的口就是講說凱凱案跟這個林業情沒有關係啊 給你說就好了"},{"start":19002.756,"end":19009.183,"text":"你這個螢幕沒有出來啊你影響到我的質詢的品質啊所以我的重點就是要講這些剛剛後面螢幕剛剛是有"},{"start":19035.412,"end":19050.843,"text":"那剛剛羊藥就有羊藥那我尾七點,那你要不要幫我講,你幫我講我就不要問了"},{"start":19052.94,"end":19078.17,"text":"好謝謝主席我想說次長這個很明顯就是說用這個圖表裡頭我們去看到了就是說社工督導跟外聘的一個督導其實在權職上在身份上在功能上其實是完全不同的最重要就是說社工督導其實他是管理就是我們機構內的主管所以他是可以介入個案的而且他事實上有他機構內部對他的指揮監督職責"},{"start":19082.323,"end":19108.022,"text":"機構內部對他的社工督導因為他是聘他作為社工督導所以他有指揮監督的責任那外聘督導是不是就誠如就是說我們是辦一個那個講座然後這是我們邀請就是外來的一個顧問還是一個講師這樣子的一個性質我想機構請外聘督導事實上就是讓這些經驗豐富或者是具有更多不同職能專業能力的這一些專家來"},{"start":19109.663,"end":19127.774,"text":"對於我們機構內部的督導或者是工作人員提升他的職能那提供他們更多的資源跟了解市長我請教你一下到底外聘督導他有沒有機會就是實際參與個案的一個環伺還是說他可以直接管理指揮我們機構內的人員嗎"},{"start":19129.315,"end":19152.706,"text":"我想謝謝委員這樣詢問事實上是說內部的這個原來機構內部的社工督導或者是機構內他們的工作人員的這個訪視員或社工他事實上是在找外聘督導的過程中說我們需要請外聘督導來協助我們了解或給我們更多資訊說我的他也可以針對整個通案來做教育上面的協助"},{"start":19153.166,"end":19178.812,"text":"也可以針對特定個案說這個個案我處理得很困難或者說我有一些知識上的資訊需要你來幫忙我想市長你把這個外聘的一個督導跟我們的社工督導講的這個權責還有就是他的工作分配講得很清楚啦倒是本期有注意到國民黨之前有一位議員他在之前講了他說林彥琴就是受聘來監督整個居托房市計畫的一個督導"},{"start":19180.993,"end":19198.769,"text":"指控這個林委員隱匿身份假裝正義的第三方在這裡我想是不是就是說國民黨的議員其實對於就是整個志工的一個系統不熟悉所以他引用的一個錯誤其實這完全就是說"},{"start":19199.589,"end":19221.755,"text":"不是只有林業勤受到這樣的一個傷害在很多第一線的這個外聘的那個督導也受到了很多的一個傷害這個是混淆社社工就是這整體的社會對社工的一個認知當然我們也希望我們也希望藉由這樣的一個事件因為凱凱這是一個悲劇那這個悲劇在這個裡頭我們希望就是說可以在這個整個事件裡頭我們得到了一些"},{"start":19228.337,"end":19254.528,"text":"我們應該要得到的這個正確的一個那個觀念還有就是那個兒童那個進捐兒童基金會這個是一個法人的一個基金會是不是這個是進捐是法人基金會嗎對柴山法人我要請問一下這一位是我們的什麼官員社交署副署長你是我們科長"},{"start":19255.267,"end":19275.502,"text":"科長我覺得你在立法院備詢你不應該是這樣的一個態度當然我們知道就是說你們會場累了因為這個會議從早上9點到這個時候不要是這個樣子謝謝所以我想是這個是學校的一個"},{"start":19279.402,"end":19294.87,"text":"好簡單的來講我想大家都把這個就是這兩個這兩個工作的前者講得非常清楚了我也不佔用大家太多的時間葉燕姿再來是葉燕姿嗎葉燕姿要繼續講這樣我就繼續講了不然如果檢控的時候葉燕姿又繼續講"},{"start":19305.291,"end":19318.077,"text":"在這裡還是要強調就是說還給社會人員一個清白我們不要讓社會人員變成就是我們政治的一個提款機那這裡我也特別就是要跟"},{"start":19320.678,"end":19340.046,"text":"就我們的市長做一個建議就是說你們在督導這個地方政府的時候要明確去釐清外聘的一個督導的角色跟責任的一個邊界避免外界去誤會這個他的角色跟混淆第二個就是外聘的督導其實是很容易引發誤解的"},{"start":19341.607,"end":19369.024,"text":"所以說這個名稱需不需要修正這個我們把它當成是一個議題那也希望就是說大家來探討看看那希望就是兩個月內給我一個書面的一個資料那還有就是說我們的外聘專家改成外聘的顧問這個是不是更貼近我們的角色呢讓社會大眾可以了解清楚他的職責避免未來就是引發很多的一個認知上的一個錯誤"},{"start":19370.585,"end":19396.205,"text":"報告委員 因為外聘督導這個在社工界長期已經是這樣運作所以在名稱上或者是在他的這個權責上面我們會再去把他的這個角色跟責任邊界做一個釐清至於說名稱上面怎麼樣去處理請委員容我們再去做一些規劃好 那我們研究看看好 謝謝主席你再給我們補充 我要補充一整組好我在這邊肯定所有全國的社工"},{"start":19397.079,"end":19419.279,"text":"你們都很辛苦那這種事情不然要發生那已經發生了那我們就要好好的處理往後不要再有這種悲劇那大家的那個收入也不是很高我看社工的待遇也不是很好大家都很辛苦所以在這邊再次跟大家肯定我們也希望處長回去看他有什麼時間再管他"},{"start":19421.922,"end":19429.694,"text":"台服更加好的啦 沛眼地區 昏殯醫院 都要給人家加薪啦再來就是這個名稱 我今天開宗明義講 我就講督導"},{"start":19434.161,"end":19460.018,"text":"我都搞不清楚這是什麼內部督導外部督導今天聽到現在才搞清楚所以這個名稱這個頭銜可能要改這樣是不妥當的所以要改的東西要進步的東西很多我們就往正向正能量看今天排這個案子也不是說要去K誰都沒有我們是希望精進然後也沒有我都說對勢不對人所以大家"},{"start":19460.959,"end":19467.164,"text":"大家就慘開心胸講謝謝賴委員謝謝主席 謝謝蘇醫師 賴委員 謝謝各位來 接續我們 葉元智你先不要了 你不要再講太久了請今天執行麻煩請那個衛福部次長"},{"start":19492.559,"end":19515.82,"text":"最近很多那個醫生朋友的反應就是說那個健保署把很多醫材啊都納入健保然後但是因為那個開會定的健保點數幾副都過低導致於有很多有一些廠商不想做要退出我想問一下通常健保署就是每一年啊要列入那麼多醫材或藥本來他們都自費嘛後來要列入他主要原因是什麼"},{"start":19517.22,"end":19541.39,"text":"健保署收载这一个几副项目的部分有几个评估的方向一个事情就是他可能在这个医学会会来向健保署提出对于他们常用或者是希望能够收载到健保内部的医材来提出审查那另外的话当然有的时候是厂商因为对厂商来讲台湾因为我们健保cover 99.9%的民众所以对厂商来说如果他持续在自费的品项来讲他可能"},{"start":19542.15,"end":19571.885,"text":"它能够这个被使用的量比较少所以有些厂商也会来跟我们要求希望能够收载到健保里面所以包含了专业医学会包含了这些医材的厂商或药品的厂商那当然有的时候可能是长期我们发现说某一些比较已经有某些医材或者是药品它已经是越来越是主要的被使用的情况那这个时候我们可能也会来跟医学会或者是这个需求端来讨论说是不是愿意让我们收载到健保里面"},{"start":19572.365,"end":19601.177,"text":"我是覺得這個部分以後因為我最近聽很多醫生在講就有的他們的譬如說外科醫師他打骨釘什麼之類的他說有的骨釘是自費市場有的是健保市場其實都已經行之有年了好好的忽然間他們民眾喜歡的自費的骨釘忽然被納入到健保那被納入健保之後那個廠商有的就不想做然後反而就打亂他們本來的一些醫療的行為那這部分是不是可以請健保署就在"},{"start":19601.897,"end":19627.833,"text":"做類似工作或開會的時候可以加強溝通因為譬如說我舉一個例子像這個之前大家新聞上面也都有看過就是一個手術的封合劑那有一個廠商叫做泰爾茂那這家廠商一開始的時候就是因為他被給的點數太低了所以他們就決定就不賣了那後來好像健保署又不救所以後來又重新找廠商來談把他的點數增加所以他又願意繼續留下來"},{"start":19628.653,"end":19653.016,"text":"我有看到非常多藍衣生有的綠色那跟政治都無關啦有的藍的有的綠的啊都跳出來罵這個事情各位有人報告喔可見說他在開會的過程當中的處理真的是有一點粗糙這個合價的部分在健保署這邊的相關合價事實上他是有些參考的公式那再來的話就是說其實當時在這一個醫材的部分事實上是好幾家廠商都來跟我們要求收載到健保裡面"},{"start":19653.877,"end":19668.614,"text":"是廠商來跟我們要求收窄那他要求收窄然後他自己又覺得點數太低然後退出其實是廠商來跟我們要求收窄那所以你們不是說大家先談就是說如果你要進來的話我給你多少點數你願意接受你再進來"},{"start":19670.436,"end":19692.606,"text":"是說他談了你直接給了給了你要或不要一句話健保收窄裡面他如果是同類型的他當然會有一個收窄的價格幾付價格那這個價格其實不是健保署自己這邊訂的第一個事情就是剛剛跟委員報告他必須要有一些公式第二個部分他必須經過我們的共擬會共同擬定會議那共同擬定會議裡面不單純只有健保署我們就拿這個太陽帽當作例子"},{"start":19695.467,"end":19709.639,"text":"你看像當時因為因為這個已經議題在被大家關注了所以後來健保署開一個記者會他把類似的藥全部都秀出來就是有百特醫療有泰爾茂還有埃莫高"},{"start":19710.64,"end":19729.239,"text":"然後就拿出來可是大家發現說你核給的健保點數11831的的百特跟奧特利這兩種實際上它的容量的計算方式是不一樣而且它的用途也不一樣等於是你把不同的容量的東西跟不同用途的東西都核給一樣的點數"},{"start":19730.66,"end":19741.091,"text":"所以這樣的比較基礎就會有一個落差再跟你補充一下我一直講完再請你一定回答好了還有就是當時在開會的時候也沒有列出國際價格還有一個問題就是"},{"start":19746.67,"end":19762.138,"text":"這個建議支付點數你們有一個報告裡面有提到像這個封合劑在臨床上臨床上申報使用是用4L為大宗可是我們剛列出來的表格你們比較基礎是拿2克來做比較"},{"start":19763.365,"end":19791.455,"text":"所以這個然後再加上這個藥特別是有非常多的醫生有很多不同意見其實我只是提出來就是說既然健保署基於需要因為剛剛市長一開始講了很多原因嘛要把那些藥納入既然有這麼多的需要把它納入那在核架以及開會的過程當中他那個資料的詳實性然後還有就是擴大醫界的意見的參與我覺得這一塊是不是可以多做一點啊不然的話真的"},{"start":19792.635,"end":19807.363,"text":"其實聽到蠻多醫生在對於盒價這件事情他們是有很多意見的我們當然希望說這個盒的價格能夠讓大家在整個使用上面或者是在醫材韌性上面能夠更好不過也報告委員就是說因為健保畢竟它是總額的"},{"start":19808.704,"end":19831.051,"text":"所以常常我們比如說A醫學會來希望我們收窄了某一項給付B醫學會就會說你會影響到我們的點值這也是我們常遇到的狀況所以說當然在健保這邊它的核價不是由健保署自己來決定就像剛剛跟您報告的第一它有一些公式第二它在我們的購你會議裡面包含了我們的健保的委員以及購你會的委員還有醫界跟藥界還有相關的醫學會"},{"start":19833.172,"end":19856.275,"text":"在供你會議上面會來針對健保署這邊必須考慮在收窄這些藥品裡面去進行評估那這裡面當然我們會尊重專家的意見好當然各自的我們也必須承認台灣事實上各自的醫院或者是醫師有比較習慣用的品牌好那我們盡量滿足有的時候可能就會有對雖然因為剛剛你也提到那個健保點子因為我們去年有一個組決議嘛就是健保1.0.95元嘛"},{"start":19857.816,"end":19885.058,"text":"那本來好像是說六月底的時候要實施那目前衛福部這方面的規劃是怎樣我們固定在每個每一季我們都有點值上面的這個計算好那所以就像委員您現在所看到我們的困境我們收窄的越多給付的越高那是不是點值上面就受到影響沒有沒有這個細節不講啦我就是說因為我們那時候是講說1.0.95元嘛那時候部長邱太元也說他認為有信心可以達到嘛那因為現在已經五月快五月底了"},{"start":19885.939,"end":19902.567,"text":"再一個月所以真的6月底是可以實施1.0.95元各位有報告其實應該是說因為我們固定的這個應該說健保因為總額的關係我們還有每一季還有區域還有醫院各區域以及各層級醫院他都有不同的點值計算好那這個東西來自於原來的點數應該是說最低1.95啦"},{"start":19903.727,"end":19927.327,"text":"對那所以這個部分跟委員報告應該是之後我們會再跟委員會做報告那我們其實健保署本來就固定每一季甚至每個每一季都會有各區域還有各層級醫療院所他的點值我現在不是講之後啦我現在是說6月底以後是不是就可以不管是哪一區或哪一級我們是一直以來我們都在針對點值的部分做進口1.0.95元啦"},{"start":19928.348,"end":19956.767,"text":"我們一直都在針對這個方向做監控跟方向的討論那做得到嗎會做得到嗎我們一直在努力那當然現在的那個是主決議啦報告委員應該是說我們現在手上當然還有各分區不一樣的現象有的區它的健保耗用沒有那麼高它甚至可以到1.1塊錢有些區它的健保耗用比較高它點值可能就比較低這個我們都知道啦這個其實去年在討論這個案子的時候大家都討論過啦現在就是說因為有一個承諾嘛6月底的時候要最少0.95元到底是有沒有做不做得到啦"},{"start":19957.767,"end":19965.07,"text":"一直都在往這個方向走所以還是有信心就對了報告委員我們是六月底當月我們是一劑一劑好謝謝好謝謝葉委員謝謝次長陳冠廷委員改成書面質詢林楚英林楚英林楚英委員不在黃婕改書面質詢好"},{"start":19986.755,"end":20015.078,"text":"本日會議詢答全部結束委員王毅敏、陳冠廷、邱振軍、廖偉祥、黃姐所提書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員執行即未為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期所定"},{"start":20016.806,"end":20019.895,"text":"本次會議到此結束 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增訂第123條之二讓委員吳秉瑞等企業人修正動議修正通過第一項據中要本人受破產宣告或經消費者債務清理條例裁定開始清算程序時修正為要本人受破產宣告或經依消費者債務清理條例裁定開始清算或更生程序時第一項第三款修正為"},{"start":2194.46,"end":2199.882,"text":"要保人會被保險人之配偶、父母或子女其一同行政院提案並修正立法說明3."},{"start":2199.882,"end":2204.564,"text":"增訂第129條之一第130條增訂第132條之一第148條之三第167條之一3組第168條之七第171條之一均照行政院提案通過4."},{"start":2204.564,"end":2205.344,"text":"第170條之一維持現行條文5."},{"start":2205.344,"end":2207.025,"text":"第174條之二及之三均不予增訂"},{"start":2220.587,"end":2236.144,"text":"6.通過負債決議議項2.求案審查完畢 必須審查報告提報院會討論 院會討論權不需交到黨團協商院會討論時由賴昭吉委員會員補充說明5月15日報告事項處理生化民國110年度中央政府總預算決議1有關財政部主管預算"},{"start":2237.625,"end":2259.842,"text":"凍結書面報告案62案1財政部先任決議凍結財政部業務費預算10%書面報告案2財政部決議凍結第一幕一般行政向下基本行政工作維持業務費預算1%書面報告案3凍結第一幕向下基本行政工作維持業務費預算300萬元書面報告案4凍結第一幕向下基本行政工作維持業務費至教育訓練費預算1%書面報告案5"},{"start":2261.903,"end":2278.301,"text":"第四項 凍結第三幕出餐業務向下促進民間參與公共建設業務預算二十分之一書面報告案六 第六項 凍結第三幕向下促進民間公共參與公共建設事業預算二十分之一書面報告案七 凍結第三幕"},{"start":2280.228,"end":2305.649,"text":"向下促进民间产业公共建设业务费预算十分之一书面报告案八 冻结第三幕向下促进民间产业公共建设业务费预算二十分之一书面报告案九 冻结第六幕捐助支出预算八百万元书面报告案十 国库所决议冻结第二幕国库业务预算二十分之一书面报告案十一 冻结第二幕国库业务预算两百万元书面报告案"},{"start":2307.208,"end":2336.027,"text":"十二 凍結第二幕向下債務管理作業之業務費預算五分之一書面報告案十三 凍結第二幕規劃第二幕向下財務規劃作業預算二十分之一書面報告案十四 國庫屬新增決議凍結第二幕向下菸酒管理作業預算百分之十書面報告案十五 國庫屬決議第五項凍結第二幕向下撕裂菸品茶器作業預算二十分之一書面報告案十六 第六項"},{"start":2337.969,"end":2362.407,"text":"凍結第二幕 向下 撕裂菸品 茶器作業 預算二十分之一 書面報告案 實際國庫屬決議凍結第二幕 向下 撕裂菸品 茶器作業 預算二十分之一 書面報告案 十八凍結第二幕 向下 撕裂菸品 茶器作業 預算二十分之一 書面報告案 十九複稅屬決議第一項 凍結第一幕 一般行政要基本行政工作維持預算一百五十萬元 書面報告案"},{"start":2364.485,"end":2388.872,"text":"二十 第二項凍結第一幕基本行政公路維持預算一百五十萬元署名報告案二十一 凍結第三幕第三項凍結第一幕鄉下基本行政公路維持預算一百五十萬元署名報告案第四項凍結第一幕預算一百五十萬元署名報告案第五項凍結第二幕稅務付稅業務預算五十萬元署名報告案第二項凍結第二幕預算五十萬元"},{"start":2390.072,"end":2395.938,"text":"署名報告案25 凍結第二幕向下一頁 革新稅制改革"},{"start":2397.659,"end":2418.047,"text":"格新稅制改善稅政經費預算五十萬元署名報告案二十六凍結第二幕向下格新稅制改善稅政經費預算三十萬元署名報告案二十七凍結第二幕向下業務費二十分之一署名報告案二十八凍結第二幕向下稅務積增及積增業務"},{"start":2421.26,"end":2438.266,"text":"金費預算十分之一書面報告案二十九凍結第三目統一發票給蔣即推行預算一百萬元書面報告案三十凍結第三目向下統一發票給蔣即推行業務費至一般行政一般事務費媒體政策及物宣導費十分之一書面報告案三十一高雄國稅局決議"},{"start":2439.706,"end":2462.368,"text":"動結第二幕 國稅基增業務向下電子處理及運用中業務費資訊服務費預算十分之一書面報告案三十二北區國稅及其所屬動結第三幕 一般建築設備第一階營建工程向下中設備及投資之房屋建築及設備費預算二十分之一書面報告案三十三中區國稅及其所屬動結第一幕 一般行政向下中"},{"start":2463.249,"end":2470.716,"text":"設備及投資雜項設備費預算十分之一書面報告案34關戶署及所屬凍結第一幕一般行政預算三百萬元書面報告案35凍結第一幕"},{"start":2476.3,"end":2495.917,"text":"向下預算基本行政工作維持預算三百萬元書面報告案三十六 第三項凍結第二幕關稅預算五百萬元書面報告案第四項凍結第二幕預算五百萬元書面報告案三十八 第五項凍結第二幕向預算五百萬元書面報告案三十九"},{"start":2496.778,"end":2515.227,"text":"第6項凍結第二幕官費業務向下500萬元署名報告案40.凍結第二幕向下第二幕向下查緝業務預算1%署名報告案41.凍結第二幕向下查緝業務旅客行李檢查及貨物查緝處理等經費100萬元署名報告案42.凍結第二幕"},{"start":2516.648,"end":2544.425,"text":"向下關稅資料處理預算五百萬元書面報告案四十三凍結第二幕關稅業務向下數位海關再造計畫預算五百萬元書面報告案四十四凍結第二幕向下數位海關再造計畫預算十分之一書面報告案四十五國有財產屬及所屬決議凍結第二幕國有財產業務向下國有財產接收保管業務費預算二十分之一書面報告案四十六第二項凍結第二幕向下國有財產"},{"start":2545.245,"end":2551.25,"text":"接收保管業務費預算兩百萬元署名報告案四十七第三項凍結第二項目向下業務費"},{"start":2553.642,"end":2582.115,"text":"兩百萬元署名報告案 四十八第四項凍結第二幕鄉下閣有財產管理處分業務費預算兩百萬元署名報告案 四十九第五項凍結第二幕鄉下閣有財產處分業務費預算兩百萬元署名報告案 五十第六項凍結第二幕鄉下閣有財產管理處分業務費兩百萬元署名報告案 五十一第七項凍結第二幕鄉下閣有財產管理處分業務費兩百萬元署名報告案 五十二第九項凍結第二幕鄉下"},{"start":2583.596,"end":2607.278,"text":"國有財產管理處分業務費兩百萬元書面報告案 五十三凍結第二幕國有財產管理處分向下國有非公用文化資產修復及管理維護計劃預算一百萬元書面報告案 五十四凍結第二幕向下之強勢外來入侵總移除防治及富裕計劃預算二十分之一書面報告案 五十五第十一項凍結第二幕向下國有財產"},{"start":2608.619,"end":2633.009,"text":"改良利用預算二十分之一書面報告案五十六第十二項凍結第二幕向下國有財產改良利用預算二十分之一書面報告案五十七凍結第二幕向下職業務費預算二十分之一書面報告案五十八凍結第二幕向下國有公用財產中設備費機械及設備費預算一百二十萬元書面報告案五十九凍結第三幕一般建築設備第一節預算二十分之一書面報告案"},{"start":2635.132,"end":2658.558,"text":"60 財政資訊中心決議凍結第二幕財政資訊業務預算500萬元書面報告案61 凍結第二幕財政資訊業務向下電子發票管理經費預算10分之一書面報告案62 凍結第二幕向下電子發票管理經費中業務費一般事務費預算10分之一書面報告案2 有關審計部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案1 審計部決議凍結第一幕一般行政向下"},{"start":2659.998,"end":2687.168,"text":"基本行政工作維持中業務費物品預算十分之一書面報告案二凍結第二幕中央政府審計向下中央政府審計工作職業務費預算五十萬元書面報告案凍結第三幕中央政府審計工作業務費國內組織會費預算兩萬元書面報告案四凍結第三幕縣市地方審計向下縣市地方審計工作預算十分之一書面報告案三有關行政組織總書預算"},{"start":2690.287,"end":2716.473,"text":"凍結書面報告案18案1行政院主計總署新增決議凍結行政院主計總署五千萬元書面報告案2凍結第七目主計訓練員業務向下主計員訓練業務費預算十分之一書面報告案3行政院主計總署凍結第一幕向下人事費扣除人事費外預算十分之一書面報告案4凍結第一幕一般行政預算四百萬元書面報告案5凍結第一幕一般行政向下政府內部控制"},{"start":2717.573,"end":2722.136,"text":"監督機制規劃及督導預算22萬元書面報告案6."},{"start":2722.136,"end":2728.621,"text":"凍結第一幕向下政府內部控制監督機制規劃及督導預算20分之一7."},{"start":2728.621,"end":2733.484,"text":"凍結第二幕中央總預算合編及執行預算10分之一書面報告案8."},{"start":2733.484,"end":2739.007,"text":"凍結第二幕向下中央總預算合編及執行預算10分之一書面報告案9."},{"start":2739.007,"end":2740.809,"text":"凍結第二幕向下地方政府主計業務及督導"},{"start":2743.174,"end":2765.436,"text":"之督導與查核制業務費預算十分之一書面報告案十凍結第二幕向下地方政府主計業務之督導與查核預算十分之一書面報告案凍結第三幕特種基金預算合編及執行預算十分之一書面報告案十二凍結第四幕會計及決算業務向下會計事務處理及決算合編預算五十萬元書面報告案十三凍結第五幕綜合統計業務向下"},{"start":2767.518,"end":2780.004,"text":"辦理統計行政與統計標準之業務費預算五分之一書面報告案 十四凍結第五目向下辦理綜合統計預算十分之一書面報告案 十五凍結第五目向下辦理綜合統計業務之贈送"},{"start":2783.717,"end":2807.082,"text":"物價調查 金融業概況調查 民營電廠營業及投資概況調查等紀念品預算五分之一 書面報告案十六 凍結第六目 國事普查 向下國庫統計預算二分之一 書面報告案十七 凍結第六目 向下各機關調查及調查網管理預算十分之一 書面報告案十八 凍結第八目"},{"start":2808.82,"end":2816.029,"text":"主計諮詢業務預算二十分之一書面報告案決定以上八十四案均以報告完成準以動之提報院會討論事項"},{"start":2819.09,"end":2832.433,"text":"處理中華民國114年中央政府總預算決議一有關財政部主管預算專案報告案17案一財政部新增決議凍結財政部預算3000萬元專案報告案二凍結財政部預算100萬元專案報告案三凍結財政部業務費預算40%專案報告案四凍結第一步一般行政1000萬元專案報告案五國庫署新增決議凍結國庫署業務費30%專案報告案"},{"start":2847.568,"end":2854.493,"text":"6.凍結第一幕一般行政向下基本行政功課維持至業務費預算2000萬元專案報告案7."},{"start":2854.493,"end":2857.775,"text":"凍結第二幕國庫業務向下思維也免查棄作業預算500萬元專案報告案8."},{"start":2857.775,"end":2858.756,"text":"複稅署新任決議凍結複稅署業務費預算30%專案報告案"},{"start":2864.079,"end":2866.921,"text":"9.台北國稅局新任決議凍結台北國稅局業務費預算30%專案報告案10.高雄國稅局新任決議凍結高雄國稅局業務費預算30%專案報告案11.北區國稅局及所屬新任決議凍結北區國稅局及所屬之業務費"},{"start":2881.69,"end":2904.046,"text":"百分之三十預算專案報告案十二中區國稅及其所屬新增絕育凍結中區國稅及其所屬業務費預算百分之三十專案報告案十三南區國稅及其所屬新增絕育凍結南區國稅及其所屬業務費預算百分之三十專案報告案十四關戶屬及所屬新增絕育凍結關戶屬業務費預算百分之三十專案報告案十五國有財產屬及所屬新增絕育凍結國有財產屬業務費預算百分之三十專案報告案十六"},{"start":2912.177,"end":2928.611,"text":"凍結第二目國有財產業務相下國有財產管理處分預算一千萬元專案報告案十七財政資訊中心新任決議凍結財政資訊中心業務費預算百分之三十專案報告案二有關行政院主計總處預算凍結專案報告案一行政院主計總處新任決議凍結行政院主計總處資業務費預算百分之四十專案報告案"},{"start":2934.616,"end":2962.781,"text":"經財政部莊部長、行政院主計總署陳處紀長分別提出報告後,藉由委員林德福等16人提出執行,均經主計總署陳處紀長、財政部莊部長及相關人員以答覆決議一,報告說明及詢問完畢二,委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊,請相關部會議週內以書面答覆,委員令要求期限者從期鎖定,三,委員陳玉珍所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報,並請相關部會議書面答覆,四,中華民國一百一四年"},{"start":2963.641,"end":2992.659,"text":"到中央政府總預算決議有關財政部主管預算凍結專案報告案17案及有關行政院主計總署預算凍結專案報告案一案均與審查完略准予動之提報院會通過臨時提案一案宣讀完畢好 向各位委員向委員報告請問各位委員對議事部有違沒有 我們就議事錄確定那麼請議事人員"},{"start":2994.781,"end":3007.407,"text":"宣讀今日的議程原理我們先介紹在場的委員與議會政府官員首先吳秉瑞委員林德甫委員金管衛的彭主委其他長官就請各位自行參閱財政部的莊部長"},{"start":3026.704,"end":3048.174,"text":"以及台銀的董事長林董事長吳總經理以及土地銀行的何董事長張總經理兆豐的董董事長黃總經理義營的邱董事長周總經理"},{"start":3050.353,"end":3075.767,"text":"華銀的陳董事長黃總經理合庫林董事長王總經理張銀的胡董事長簡總經理中小企銀的李董事長李總經理中央銀行的袁副總袁副總裁行政院主計總處的公務預算處簡樂市長陳簡樂市長"},{"start":3080.046,"end":3082.541,"text":"好等綠神"},{"start":3086.83,"end":3089.712,"text":"你宣布好請議事宣布本律例子"},{"start":3118.551,"end":3136.598,"text":"報告委員會我們今天先處理金管會預算解讀案書面報告有39案另外有專案報告9案我們先處理書面報告39案請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":3140.218,"end":3169.254,"text":"1 金管會新增決議凍結第二幕金融監理向下金融監督管理預算30萬元書面報告案2 金管會決議凍結第一幕一般行政預算70萬元書面報告案3 凍結第一幕向下基本行政公務維持業務費預算十分之一書面報告案4 凍結第一幕向下基本行政公務維持業務費預算十分之一書面報告案5 凍結第二幕金融監理向下金融監督管理預算十分之一書面報告案6 凍結第二幕向下金融監督管理"},{"start":3169.894,"end":3191.285,"text":"預算二十分之一書面報告案七凍結第二幕向下金融監督管理預算百分之三書面報告案八凍結第二幕向下金融監督管理業務費五十萬元書面報告案九凍結金融監理向下金融監督管理業務費二十分之一書面報告案十凍結第二幕向下業務費預算五十萬元書面報告案"},{"start":3193.135,"end":3216.49,"text":"11 凍結第二幕 向下金融監督管理中設備及投資資訊軟體設備費預算40萬元書面報告案12 金管會銀行局決議凍結第一幕 一般行政預算50萬元書面報告案13 凍結第一幕 一般行政向下基本行政工作維持業務費預算20分之一書面報告案14 凍結第一幕 一般行政預算100萬元書面報告案15 凍結第一幕"},{"start":3219.392,"end":3227.534,"text":"一般行政預算10萬元書面報告案16 凍結第二幕銀行監理向下銀行監理預算50萬元書面報告案17 凍結第二幕向下銀行監理預算3%書面報告案18 凍結第二幕向下銀行監理業務費35萬元書面報告案19 凍結第二幕向下銀行監理業務費預算1%書面報告案20 凍結第二幕"},{"start":3242.897,"end":3270.213,"text":"項下銀行經理業務費十萬元書面報告案二十一金管會證券期貨局決議動結第一幕一般行政預算七十萬元書面報告案二十二動結第一幕一般行政項下基本行政工作維持業務費兩百萬元書面報告案二十三動結第一幕一般行政預算七十萬元書面報告案二十四動結第一幕項下基本行政工作維持中業務費之證券期貨大樓外牆修繕工程預算"},{"start":3271.033,"end":3271.213,"text":"議員議案結束"},{"start":3301.893,"end":3324.604,"text":"向下證券期貨市場資業務費50萬元書面報告案31 凍結第二幕證券期貨市場資業務費30萬元書面報告案32 監管會保險局決議凍結第一幕一般行政預算50萬元書面報告案33 凍結第一幕一般行政向下基本行政工作維持業務費60萬元書面報告案34 凍結第二幕保險監理向下保險監理預算3%書面報告案35 凍結第二幕保險"},{"start":3330.166,"end":3330.306,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":3357.222,"end":3374.149,"text":"向委員會報告請問各位委員針對以上的預算解凍案的書面報告有無異議沒有異議我們就准以這個書面報告完成准以動之提報委員會現在進行第一處理中華民國114年中央政府總預算"},{"start":3384.028,"end":3388.246,"text":"金管會預算節度的專案報告9案"},{"start":3389.673,"end":3417.372,"text":"第二邀請財政部金管會中央銀行對於房屋稅2.0課程亂象與金融機構對不動產融資緊縮及中央銀行信用管制措施對房地產交易影響專題報告並被質詢現在依順序首先請金管會的彭主委對於預算解凍案說明及專題報告請"},{"start":3424.437,"end":3446.852,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位媒體 先敬大家早安114年度中央政府總預算有關本會主管預算凍結報告48案陳貴委員會邀請提出報告各詳細書面報告已納入大院議事關係文書 敬請參閱以下僅就9案專案報告內容簡要說明 敬請各位委員會與支持同意預算解凍"},{"start":3448.513,"end":3469.531,"text":"1.凍結本會及所屬市局業務費30%部分本會及所屬市局之業務費系為支應各業務單位共同性行政管理基本需求並確保監理檢查業務順利運作之經費截至本年4月底執行率已達70%原提出專案報告懇請同意動資本項預算麻煩請過夜到第4夜"},{"start":3471.433,"end":3483.58,"text":"凍結本會金融監理向下金融監督管理50萬元部分本會配合打詐綱領2.0擔任主詐騙統籌機關以依據詐欺犯罪危害防治條例發布授權執法強化詐騙機制、通報機制、經濟聯防機制、招詐騙匯款、返還等作業規範"},{"start":3494.554,"end":3513.647,"text":"有關台銀銀行銀行員涉案一部本會已於114年3月11日何處該行2200萬元罰完並持續監督該行強化內控機制及相關管理機制有關凍結本會金融監理向下金融監督管理二十分之一部分"},{"start":3514.548,"end":3538.111,"text":"金融市場所稱金金分離一詞尚非周延之法律概念行政監理機關須遵守守法的依法行政原則執行公權利對金融市場之監理仍應回歸法有明文範圍辦理我國於民國八十年間即規定金融機構負責人不得同時擔任其他金融機構負責人避免利害衝突落實競業禁止"},{"start":3539.272,"end":3558.297,"text":"本會日常監理發現,其關係人同時兼任不同金融機構董事,有違反利害衝突、禁業禁止等疑慮,原本會於107年將禁業禁止規範主體由本人擴充至其關係人,如配偶及直系血親,後續將總經理一直納入,並依此修正相關規定。"},{"start":3559.497,"end":3584.957,"text":"是凍結本會保險局保險監理預算100萬部分台灣人壽113年10月28日向本會通報李培仁重大詐謀重大偶發經本會查處以一保險法171條之一第四項核處該公司罰還720萬債案為強化保險業內空內機制度以訂定保險業內部控制集合制度實施辦法建立內部控制三道防線保險業違反"},{"start":3587.479,"end":3609.899,"text":"將依違私程度、何處罰還、依法處理欲糾正、限期改善以及其他必要之處置有關凍結本會檢察局金融檢察機關三百萬元部分本會檢察局針對洩密事件原因程序以深切自省處以追究案官人員行政責任外並通盤檢討及採取諸多精進管控措施"},{"start":3611.26,"end":3631.476,"text":"本會及所屬114年度預算 系為維持基本行政工作及健全金融機構業務經營金融市場穩定及促進金融發展所必需經費均按需求及尊潔原則 編列並執行會立施政業務順利推動相關凍結案 敬請各位委員會與同意支持動之謝謝"},{"start":3637.882,"end":3642.786,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家早今日本部呈要列席就專題報告"},{"start":3654.125,"end":3670.505,"text":"提出提出报告那仅就我们房屋税2.0的新制从113年7月1号起施行今年5月1号首次开征我们对新制首年施行的相关事项进行报告以及对于近期公股银行不动产贷款管制的成效"},{"start":3670.965,"end":3693.716,"text":"做報告首先對於房屋稅2.0新制的幾個重點報告第一個在稅率的部分因為對於說房屋所有人他非自住住家用房我們這次規定是進行全國總歸戶那同時調高的法定稅率由2%到84.8%另外各地方政府都必須按照全國持有的戶數訂定差別稅率"},{"start":3694.597,"end":3721.739,"text":"並且採取全數累進來做課徵第二個對於特定的房屋我們可以適用比較低的稅率比如說你有出租的而申報的租金也達到一定的標準或繼承取得的共有房屋那他的法定稅率也比剛剛所說的2%到4.8%為低我們定的是1.5%到2.4%對於建商興建房住家用的房屋在我們按照他的銷售期間持有的銷售期間定定不同的稅率"},{"start":3722.6,"end":3734.874,"text":"另外對於自住的房屋的部分除了維持原來自住房屋全國三戶以內可以適用1.2%之外對全國你僅持有一戶的房屋做自住使用的話稅率是調降為1%第二個我們也對於房賭租稅"},{"start":3737.977,"end":3767.015,"text":"逃漏的部分对住家用房屋限制在10万块以下免征房屋税的适用对象那么自然人的持有必须在三户以内才可以做这样的一个适用另外也简化了我们的激增的一个作业第二个部分2.0的薪资我们预期的成效主要是在于2.0的薪资希望透过加重多屋族的空置房屋的税负还有减轻出租房屋的税负来鼓励房屋所有人把房屋释出到租赁市场"},{"start":3767.775,"end":3796.114,"text":"讓租屋族能夠租到合適的房屋然後促使建商同時促使建商依照市場狀況能夠調整價格加速出售增加房屋的供給那麼今年第一年的開增它所發的相關的協助措施以及主要的一議事項第一個就是自住房屋我們採取檢證辨明的輔導措施由基層機關主動寄發輔導通知書希望民眾能夠趕快涉戶籍然後來按自住稅率課徵"},{"start":3797.074,"end":3816.167,"text":"另外对于自住以及出租房屋的放宽措施对申报期限也从3月24号放宽到6月2号对于自住房屋如果纳税义务人到户政机关办理户籍迁入的时候也可以同时申报作为自住房屋我们做户政跟税金机关之间的一个横向联系"},{"start":3817.588,"end":3845.335,"text":"另外在這段期間民眾所反映的主要疑義的事項我們來做說明第一個在台北市政府的部分因為它是由於家住上資料家住本身的一個錯誤以致產生自住房屋所屬的地上房屋地上停車空間按照非自住房屋的稅率來課稅那這個部分台北市的稅捐處已經發現以後主動的去更正稅單並且展延繳款的期限那第二個部分就是新北市政府發生的就是單獨權狀的停車位"},{"start":3846.915,"end":3853.597,"text":"它按照非自住稅率的合克那這個部分呢本部在74年其實有過含釋你領有單獨權狀的停車空間應該按照組建物的用途來適用稅率來克徵那麼組建物如果是自住的話那停車位當然是按照自住房屋來克稅率來克徵這個部分"},{"start":3865.14,"end":3880.577,"text":"本部會再主動的發布函式讓各地方政府能夠有所遵循第三個部分就是他已經辦完了戶籍登記的自住房屋但是仍然按照非自住的稅率來課稅的部分那這個部分呢是由於少數的一個"},{"start":3882.159,"end":3897.356,"text":"戶籍登記的自住房屋它因為稅籍上面所登載的房屋的地址和戶政機關所登載的門牌不一致所以我們在資料比對的時候沒有能夠完全的比對出來那這個部分基層機關也會更正然後重新發稅單並且展現繳款的一個期限"},{"start":3900.419,"end":3915.878,"text":"第四個部分就是說共有人他只有部分的人辦成了共有房屋共有房屋只有部分共有人完成戶籍登記那這個房屋是不是全部都可以按照自住的稅率來合克那我想這個部分呢可能我們要在審慎的一個做一個研議"},{"start":3917.915,"end":3940.271,"text":"第二部分就是公股銀行它不動產融資管制的一個成效公股銀行在辦理不動產貸款的業務都是按照金管會以及央行對金融機構辦理不動產抵押貸款業務的相關規定來辦理那麼我們八家公股行庫除了土地銀行以外的其他七家公股銀行都是符合銀行法第72條之二規定的上限30%而且都沒有超過28.5%另外到今年4月底七家公股"},{"start":3946.816,"end":3966.78,"text":"銀行的不動產貸款的集中度平均是36.11%略高於113年底0.01%那主要是因為購買住宅貸款增加所造成的那麼我們本部也會持續的我們獨島公股銀行依照卓院長在113年9月5號在院會指示的四項原則就是妥適調整放款的結構降低大型建商"},{"start":3975.401,"end":4001.386,"text":"與土建融的放款還有落實不動產集中度的管理提高自住房屋的貸款額度以及確保自住民眾身貸權益並且建立健康有序的不動產的市場那最後的結語就是房屋稅2.0的新制到今年是首次實施那本部已請各機關在今年期房屋稅開增期間如果遇到有關相關的適用疑義"},{"start":4002.626,"end":4005.608,"text":"謝謝專部長的報告下一位請央行的原副總裁進行簡要的報告"},{"start":4039.248,"end":4057.294,"text":"主席各位委員以下請就央行業務相關部分提出報告第一個部分我們想說明是為了規範銀行的信用資源過度流向不動產市場本行已經有7次的調整選擇性信用管制措施並且在去年8月的時候請銀行有所謂的自主"},{"start":4058.71,"end":4073.946,"text":"自主控管不動產貸款總量以強化金融機構的不動產受信風險那我們也提出幾個配套措施第一點就是說由銀行自行考量他自己本身原體不動產的改善計畫並給予一年期的調整"},{"start":4074.747,"end":4088.192,"text":"第二點我們本攤也強調是銀行的自主管理不動產總量已不影響無致用住宅民眾購物以及政府在推動都更等政策的資金所需的資金第三點"},{"start":4090.154,"end":4104.559,"text":"針對有實質換屋需求者經切節於一年內出售原有房屋申辦第一戶或第二戶購屋貸款不受到限制報告的第二部分說明本行的選擇性信用措施的執行成效"},{"start":4105.419,"end":4132.853,"text":"第一點從實施以來我們看到銀行的受限貸款的陳述下降符合我們的規定本行也針對了各項不動產的貸款項目規範了一個貸款陳述這主要的目的是將銀行的資金優先轉貸給無致用住宅者的購屋貸款下一頁第二點我們想說明的是房地產交易降溫民眾看漲房價預期心理下降這邊可以從去年10月開始全國"},{"start":4134.214,"end":4137.777,"text":"買賣移轉動數的年增率轉成負成長今年第一季以年減22.1%下業"},{"start":4142.093,"end":4166.627,"text":"第二點我們想說明的是根據最新的一些永慶房屋的網路調查或者是新營房屋的購屋意向調查都顯示了民眾看漲房價的預期心理在下降中第三點銀行不動產優先貸款銀行不動產貸款年增率減緩且銀行信用資源已優先提供給無資用住宅"},{"start":4167.567,"end":4180.002,"text":"這邊在第五頁的上面的圖已經顯示到我們的各項貸款的這個餘額的年增率已經從近期的高點分別在下降中第二點同樣的在第五頁的下面這個圖顯示"},{"start":4182.652,"end":4210.008,"text":"吳志庸住宅民眾購屋貸款餘額佔購屋貸款餘額的比重已經上升到61.9%下一頁第四點我們要說明的是不動產貸款集中度緩降預算比例則維持低然各位在第六頁的上面圖可以看到銀行不動產的貸款集中度已從去年的高點去年大概1月的37.64%降到今年3月的36.89%"},{"start":4211.989,"end":4231.403,"text":"那我們也注意到不動產的預販的貸款比率還是一個維持在一個相對的低點報告的第七頁主要在說明雖然我們看到不動產貸款集中度已經有下降但是不動產貸款的餘額仍高在"},{"start":4232.878,"end":4255.055,"text":"第七個第一個圖也告訴我們這個不動產的餘額持續在增長第二點我們認為銀行信用資源能有過度流向不動產相關部門的情形特別是雖然今年三月底已經降到36.89但是以過去幾個時點去看到目前不動產貸款餘額的增幅仍然高於總販款的增幅"},{"start":4255.795,"end":4278.103,"text":"這是我們在顯示銀行的資源信用能有過度流向不動產的情況最後則為報告的結語部分本行信用管制措施執行迄今已有成效未來本行仍將持續關注不動產貸款及房地產市場發展情形並檢視各項措施執行成效事實檢討"},{"start":4279.941,"end":4294.358,"text":"事實檢討選擇性限管制措施 以上報告 敬請各位委員執教 謝謝好 謝謝央郎的副總裁做專題報告現在開始詢問 做以下的宣告"},{"start":4295.543,"end":4313.968,"text":"每位出席委員按慣例發言8分鐘不要使得言上2分鐘每位列席委員發言4分鐘今天早上10點鐘截止發言登記現在依照登記的順序請登記地位的林德福委員咨詢"},{"start":4339.352,"end":4363.565,"text":"來我請教一下為什麼今天那個楊總裁沒有來呢請教因為今天主要排那個房地產的他相對主角不是他主角不是他主角不是他我想奇怪他怎麼沒有來因為我要問那個主權基金啊對這個主權基金是臨時跑出來的對啊原來題目設定在房地產原來設定在房地產好那嚴務總裁還有包括門莊部長"},{"start":4369.048,"end":4373.315,"text":"好 財政部的莊部長央行的顏總裁顏副總裁"},{"start":4376.213,"end":4403.001,"text":"各位官員一次以後就不用再敬禮了副總裁還有莊部長委員長我請教因為賴總統520談話提到說政府要成立推升台灣整個經濟的發展動人的主權基金打造國家級的投資平台那我請問副總裁我們行政院"},{"start":4406.937,"end":4412.054,"text":"財經部會對成立主權基金是不是已經有充分的共識有沒有"},{"start":4415.041,"end":4438.652,"text":"就我的了解我們在那個國發會主導其實已經有討論過討論過交換過意見交換過意見有沒有很肯定為什麼賴總統在520談話中提出說這個就提出這一點而且這個未來還是必須要進一步規劃管理以及整個執行的運作這個不是說"},{"start":4441.099,"end":4455.244,"text":"這個主權基金是整個國際上的投資不是像我們國安基金一樣就是有時候股市真的是很嚴重的時候怎麼要去進去那個我們都可以接受那過去這個"},{"start":4457.321,"end":4478.962,"text":"主權基金也有我們本院的同仁那他現在已經不在了那個叫吳興代他也提過其實那時候中央銀行財政部你們表面當然也不是說絕對反對但是私底下大家都不接受那你總不能說那時候不接受現在沒人接受來 副總裁你有什麼看法"},{"start":4479.997,"end":4506.673,"text":"那個報告委員因為我不在那個曾經我不知道那個總統這樣子的那個部長你知不知道那個莊部長是昨天在總統的談話裡面確實有提到有關主權基金的部分那我想主權基金的設置上一次財委會也開過也開過三題報告那在這裡面很清楚第一個主權基金的設置當然要要做一個審慎的規劃包含設立專法以及未來"},{"start":4507.383,"end":4507.403,"text":"因為齁"},{"start":4524.383,"end":4525.163,"text":"你的看法勒"},{"start":4555.182,"end":4565.366,"text":"因為主權基金代表是政府的財富的運用所以基本上是由整個政府來主導這個案子那總結單位你認為應該是由誰因為這個還是在"},{"start":4571.718,"end":4597.541,"text":"我覺得還是要在做跨部會之間的溝通跨部會溝通因為目前財政部已經有了國安基金如果再加上主權基金那我請問那個莊部長你們有沒有能力來承擔這兩大基金的管理跟運用有關主權基金未來假設要成立的話他的管理機構都有待有關在專法裡面要來訂定"},{"start":4598.266,"end":4619.665,"text":"是由哪個單位來主持這個部分行政院發言人也說了會再詳細的討論跟討論其實主權基金它的風險很大大家都清清楚楚而且你將來整個組織架構你要用專業的人士來操作而且"},{"start":4621.251,"end":4644.36,"text":"這個裡面到最後會不會產生問題因為講實在話我對現在的政府打問號因為他有很多根本就都是用酬庸式的而且那個裡面這是一大筆基金這是大家的錢也不是說由你主導然後你就可以遙控還怎麼樣這個是有問題的所以說我認為這個要審慎部長你有什麼看法"},{"start":4651.302,"end":4669.913,"text":"當然委員提出了這些問題未來在專法裡面訂定的時候要有什麼樣的一個管理機制以及什麼樣的人專業人才來做這個基金的一個投資策略的一個擬定還有有沒有決策的一個機構來做處理這個未來在專法裡面都要審慎的研議的審慎研議那你認為說就是未來整個"},{"start":4675.336,"end":4703.099,"text":"主責的單位是你認為是應該中央銀行還是你們呢還是財政部呢這個行政院會再討論我認為齁這個要審慎的去考量處理啦不是換了個位子就換了個腦袋啦過去你們是不贊成的然後現在賴總統講一句話然後你們就馬上來附和上議這個是很嚴重的事情你們要講真話對不對"},{"start":4706.687,"end":4729.197,"text":"那個閻副總裁你的看法呢那個報告委員其實我們從那個彭總裁論內我們都一直彭總裁就反對啦我們沒有反對我們只是反對那個外匯無償撥用的這個你們外匯堅持說不行用外匯啊他可以用但是就透過去購買央行的外匯的方式去轉存到我們的未來的主權基金這邊"},{"start":4730.157,"end":4742.649,"text":"所以我要澄清就是說我們一直是提供很多的方式去處理設立國家主權基金的這樣子的方式我們沒有我們沒有反對我們覺得是不合適用外匯存底直接撥用的這個議題我是認為啦總裁"},{"start":4746.375,"end":4760.113,"text":"這個因為副總裁那個我認為說這個要很審慎啦不能說上面講一句話然後你們就互合然後就怎麼樣去配合這個是很嚴重的問題要很審慎"},{"start":4761.334,"end":4788.773,"text":"那個副總裁那個部長你回去按照第一季李監事會的記錄央行第七波的選擇性信用管制措施在嚇阻這個草房降低不動產貸款集中度及協助房市降溫的方面這個發揮最後然而媒體報導各公股銀行統計前四個月新成做的房貸金額以建樹普遍較去年同期出現下滑"},{"start":4790.094,"end":4805.316,"text":"那房貸利率則持續的上升上揚那我請問總裁幾波的選擇性的這個管制措施實施到現在為止你認為目前房市轉冷的情況是不是還在央行可控的狀態裡面"},{"start":4807.435,"end":4823.286,"text":"因為我們也看到那個房市的交易量的確是最近這幾個月是有走走走緩或者是下降的現象但是那個房價其實他那個降幅還是還是沒有降沒有沒有特別的"},{"start":4824.187,"end":4844.105,"text":"我們其實我們每一次理事會之前我們都會檢視我們的房地產的措施然後再討論這樣的措施的有效性這樣子那個副總裁那為符合政府推動房市政策國營繼續來配合進行不動產換款的總量管制那我請問考量今年川普對等關稅"},{"start":4845.886,"end":4865.752,"text":"談判未定,那國際金融情勢不確定性上升的這種情況下你認為皇室是不是有進一步受到衝擊這是一個比較大的問題因為這是國際的不安因素啊因為我們也不知道那個川普很多政策未來的調整情形是怎樣未來會不會鬆綁"},{"start":4868.207,"end":4892.675,"text":"調整整個房市政策的條件之一會不會我們每一季我們在理事會之前我們都會檢視我們的過去的執行成效那在那個那個場合之下我們如果有需要檢討或者是修正我們會跟央行的理事會去報告這個案子延伍總裁選擇性的信用管制措施對不動產市場的約束以及國外財經"},{"start":4895.516,"end":4915.247,"text":"經濟局勢不確定性增加讓民眾整個購屋度轉為保守來觀望今年來整體的黃式交易量較去年同期減少導致新陳做的黃帶下滑那以今年黃式交易新陳做黃帶的發展市場上"},{"start":4916.428,"end":4939.003,"text":"逐漸傳出央行信用管制措施要調整不動產這個還款的餘額的異常太樣那我請問沐總裁面對這樣的市場傳聞不時報導內容你認為是基於哪種心態或者是有哪些目的所以說才在最近出現這個這樣的一個發酵你認為呢"},{"start":4942.523,"end":4971.344,"text":"那個報告委員因為我記得在5月初的時候我們有已經有5月8號5月9號我們有一個新聞稿說明我們的政策其實暫時還沒有準備要調整央行澄清那信用管制現狀未改變那還是按照當前的規範措施未來是不是要調整理事會將充分的討論那我請問副總裁第二季理監事會有沒有可能最快的調整"},{"start":4973.766,"end":4985.592,"text":"這個選擇性的這個信用管制的措施的時間點會不會包括委員這個是由我們理事來討論所以我不方便在這邊那個副總裁你回應會滾動檢討房市政策並檢討檢視這個因為總裁有講過會檢視三"},{"start":4995.188,"end":5020.854,"text":"三重點啦一是信用管制措施的成效二是不動產市場的狀況三是不動產資源有無過度的傾斜再來決定措施適否調整那這個請問副總裁央行信用管制措施這個沒有推出第八波是不是代表成效已經達到滿分的這種狀況"},{"start":5024.773,"end":5040.483,"text":"我們會注意到房地產市場的整個發展情形還是央行能不排除有推出下一波信用管制措施的可能會不會我們一直說我們在滾動式的檢討請問副總裁檢視重點二不動產市場的狀況你認為哪些條件花生石央行才會考慮調整的措施"},{"start":5050.709,"end":5064.965,"text":"其實我們在考慮房地產市場的時候我們不是只有幾個條件說啦而且還是有看整個整個國內外經濟金融情勢對房地產市場的影響的再做判斷這樣喔好謝謝謝謝好謝謝李委員的質詢下一個請吳秉樂委員質詢請"},{"start":5082.386,"end":5084.047,"text":"主席麻煩請財政部莊部長部長我也好部長早齁看到媒體報導說光台北市的這個房屋稅就他的那個錯誤的這個稅單就五萬多張那為什麼"},{"start":5107.762,"end":5124.428,"text":"我們這個法律從去年立了今年要實施已經一年了為什麼錯誤的比例這麼的高什麼原因造成的是跟委員報告我們也去了解第一個就是他的錯誤主要是對於譬如說我們大廈裡面有自住的房屋然後又有一個停車位但是他把那個停車位"},{"start":5125.356,"end":5152.272,"text":"沒有隨同組建物一起用自住的稅率來課徵然後變成用非自住的房子來課徵那我們去了解原因是什麼第一個就是他說他的承辦人是新的今年承辦人是新的在那個他們的資料檔案裡面這個加注錯誤了一次發生那他們發現以後也立刻重新發單同時對於各所有的納稅義務人在進行相關的一個宣導跟說明主要是因為他們自己本身內部的一個資料加注的問題"},{"start":5153.767,"end":5169.558,"text":"雖然這個房屋稅是地方政府的稅捐基金處在處理但是媒體的評論是地方政府的稅捐基金處固然有錯那財政部跟他們之間的溝通是不是會有一些問題有沒有這樣的狀況"},{"start":5172.572,"end":5199.137,"text":"像這樣的問題在其他地方並沒有發生有啊新北市也有啊數量比較少而已啊新北市主要是因為他那個權狀他那個停車位一個單獨的權狀那他認為這個單獨的權狀他就把他當作非住家在客他的情況又跟台北市不一樣那這個部分部長你講的只是一部分我那天就是在我的網路上關我們新莊我不講哪一黨的議員就跳出來罵財政部說這個資料錯"},{"start":5201.998,"end":5221.443,"text":"是怎麼樣怎麼樣我找本黨的議員去跟他講說最終計算處是新北市政府的怪都財政部來我還特別維護你們的立場但是李沐香講的數量這麼少光是他那個議員在他陳述就是光新北市有好幾千件"},{"start":5223.69,"end":5238.127,"text":"謝謝委員我想第一個在今年實施新制的五月開徵那其實在我們法規定了以後財政部已經多次邀請地方政府來開會把他們因為有些地方政府在之前已經實施用"},{"start":5238.687,"end":5267.466,"text":"原来的房屋税条例它里面是用县市归附那这部分的经验很重要所以我们也采纳各地方政府的经验部分地方政府它根本没有实施的经验所以在这一次实施的时候它会产生一些问题新北市根本没有实施过这个差别税率依照103年那个税率所以其实这个部分我们当时是开过很多次会然后有关相关的地方税的系统里面也都做了一些调整所以基本上"},{"start":5268.106,"end":5295.335,"text":"在這個問題的發生我們也隨時都有在注意關注如果是屬於我們韓式可以做韓式的趕快韓式那如果是本身他們資料的問題也告訴他們要去做調整像台北市這部分就立即再做處理那新北這個部分因為他的認知上一直跟法規上有點落差所以我們今天又這個禮拜我們會發函告訴他就是要按照組建物的用途來課徵所以不可以因為他是單獨一張權狀公社就用非自助來課"},{"start":5296.255,"end":5316.107,"text":"發函當然有必要啦但是有的時候發函的速度太慢因為現在正在就是稅單現在就是收到在改的時候有的時候一邊發函一方面也要做一些電話啦或是網路上面的行政指導讓他們能夠很清楚的了解那種狀況因為現在新北市其實集合住宅有非常多啦以本席的選區新莊而言"},{"start":5317.808,"end":5342.548,"text":"那現在企業住宅有沒有住戶就佔很大的比例啊所以如果說公設啦然後跟這個什麼住汽車啦然後跟那個房屋主體啊這些都搞不清楚過去的錯誤我現在希望明年這些錯誤不要再有好不好雖然雖然這個基增是地方所以基增處的工作啦但是我們是盡量來跟他協助輔導讓他們盡量少犯錯"},{"start":5351.13,"end":5365.678,"text":"有沒有去參加APEC的會議目前來說市長的會議已經APEC開過了然後資深官員大概在最近幾個月財長的要到10月才會開秀峰會會更晚"},{"start":5367.502,"end":5382.677,"text":"這個川普美國川普總統上台之後大家就是認為說他的有些政策會影響到過去這個經常性的這些貿易狀況比如說關稅的問題所以有一些預測機構就會去下調這個GDP那台灣的GDP"},{"start":5387.267,"end":5402.883,"text":"我們被預測也是有下調可是還有一些機構是預測說反而我們會上調再加上4月我們的出口破紀錄了500多億美金有沒有那你覺得呢覺得這個台灣今年的GDP的表現會怎麼樣"},{"start":5404.493,"end":5420.188,"text":"跟委員報告第一季的GDP成長率達到5.37%最主要也是第一個出口的暢旺第二個就是資本的形成也就是我們的廠商加大投資的力道那至於後因為這不可否認是有因為美國因為關稅措施的關係那大家提前拉貨提前備貨"},{"start":5424.412,"end":5431.758,"text":"那之後下半年會不會因為前面提前拉貨後面就慢慢趨緩下來這個還要觀察因為為什麼因為對等關稅要到7月9號90天的屆滿後續會是怎麼樣的一個調整我們認為要持續的觀察然後我們的小組談判小組也在持續的應該在做一些相關的方案的模擬式"},{"start":5445.919,"end":5457.703,"text":"我們第一季5.37是蠻高的喔如果照這個統計下來那我們顯然我們第二季第三季第四季的經濟成長會狀況會不妙啊不然的話怎麼會平均數只有三點多所以"},{"start":5460.134,"end":5486.179,"text":"意思是說我們下半年的經濟展望是不好嗎是這樣的意思嗎平均數3點多當時是主總他在預測全年的3.14但是事實上第一季的部分已經比原來的來的成長那至於後面他5月底5月的下半個月還會5月底大概還會再公佈他的預測值所以有可能會修正就對了這個要看他公佈的結果"},{"start":5487.847,"end":5515.785,"text":"我們這一屆的立院是第十一屆嘛第十屆的後半段民眾黨一個不分區立委叫吳欣盈你記得嗎那時候你當部長了嗎我知道 他一直在推他其實都一直在推這個主權基金一進來就一直遊說 一直推弄了好多的資料可是那時候的政府基本上並不是"},{"start":5516.946,"end":5544.812,"text":"完全去支持這樣的政策有一些考量在那現在總統當然他是一個總統當然他可以宣布他希望未來的政策走向那但是政策走向還要經過立法還要經過周延的制度的設計那你現在剛剛你有回答前面的我有一頁講到這個主權基金的問題你有覺得這個政府在這幾年之間大概就是三四年之間這個政策有變化嗎"},{"start":5547.315,"end":5551.916,"text":"一開始的時候設置主權基金當然您提到吳委員當時有提到那只是說到底要怎麼設置他的財源來自於哪裡等等那個時候大概還僅止於討論然後現在政策上如果要成立的話那接下來就是要就是如同委員說要審慎的規劃而且要訂專法在專法裡面"},{"start":5567.481,"end":5586.87,"text":"必須對於大家所疑慮的部分要能夠去謹慎的規劃訂定讓大家覺得說這樣的是一個可做的那同時裡面好幾個比如說你的管理機構你的規模你的財財富的來源才哪裡以及是由誰來操作以及有沒有相關的管制機制都要詳細的訂定那這個我覺得要經過討論以後才最後落入專法然後能經過立法程序來做執行"},{"start":5592.213,"end":5621.486,"text":"那你會覺得總統任滿週年的這個談話速度太快嗎?走得太前面嗎?倒也不盡然因為其實主權基金之前就是譬如說像一兩年前就有在做討論然後也可以參考其他國際間怎麼樣在做執行你又沒有回答我的問題我是問你說你當部長這幾年你不覺得這個政策有沒有變化是不是從起先比較不贊成走到現在好像就是希望往這個方向推"},{"start":5622.562,"end":5642.736,"text":"應該說起先也不太明確起先不明確那現在是明確了中間環境有什麼變化國內的國外的環境有什麼大的變化當然國內國外的環境也會有變化比如說整個美國的這個因素關稅貿易的一個因素以及美國其實川普政府也提到有關主權基金這樣的一個議題"},{"start":5643.925,"end":5662.141,"text":"其實我覺得這是一個好機會因為現在的制度正式要對美國加大投資那台灣其實這幾年因為一直不停的順差所以我們實在是累積了非常多的這個超額儲蓄你應該要想辦法找到出口"},{"start":5662.822,"end":5677.929,"text":"那當然是不是所有投資人都願意照這個方向去做對祖權州基金的持股或怎麼樣這個是制度的設計問題我上次就跟他講說他用發行債券的方式"},{"start":5679.229,"end":5693.535,"text":"讓台灣的這個油資有興趣的人去認購然後拿這個錢去做主權基金對美國的投資我覺得這是不錯啊這也對台灣的這個超額儲蓄有很大的不然油資氾濫會使我們台灣的很多資產都"},{"start":5695.575,"end":5723.74,"text":"要控制很困難今天這個議題譬如說是房市的問題你的順差太多 你的油資太多你這個東西要控制就會變得艱難所以是用什麼樣的方式設計一個比較好的制度這個真的有待大家努力的把這個方面的制度整個弄好不過這個方向我覺得最大的差別是其實這兩三年來國際的環境以及台灣的自身的能力都已經有所改變"},{"start":5724.52,"end":5736.289,"text":"那政策當然是一個前瞻性的看法能不能落實還要看大家是不是很努力來把它變成一個真正可以操作的政策所以大家加油好不好謝謝委員 謝謝接下來請賴昭偉來"},{"start":5754.934,"end":5768.762,"text":"謝謝主席有請財政部長 莊部長還有央行的原副總裁以及金管會的彭主委三位長官一起彭主委 原副總裁 莊部長來委員好"},{"start":5770.768,"end":5792.648,"text":"三位長官好 首先這個當然我要回應要談賴總統昨天突然丟出一個主權基金了這個題目我在幾個禮拜前排過專題報告排過專題報告 央行的立場是很清楚的彭副 那個原副總裁"},{"start":5793.837,"end":5804.094,"text":"你們的立場是不反對成立但是呢絕對反對無償使用這個外匯存底這個辦法 對"},{"start":5805.492,"end":5811.719,"text":"理由是因為這個錢不是政府的錢這個錢是百姓的錢主權基金國家的主權當然是國家的錢去成立的"},{"start":5824.632,"end":5845.45,"text":"這裡面當然有人提到什麼挪威啦這個中東那些的殘留國家的主權基金可是基本上來講央行的態度比較譬如說是新加坡韓國的模式對吧我們是建議參考建議參考嘛建議參考新加坡韓國那就是政府出錢"},{"start":5846.884,"end":5866.522,"text":"對啊 政府出錢所以這樣一來 政府出錢 那就財政部啦來 莊部長 是不是所以剛聽你對前面兩位委員的回答你講起話來 這個話很流利啊 很流暢啊是不是準備挑起來了 你就變成負責單位了財政部就負責單位 負責主權基金 是不是"},{"start":5870.986,"end":5878.111,"text":"對於主權基金未來如何的詳細的規劃跟制度的建立行政院會邀集相關部會來做討論對我知道 但是如果行政院要我當主管單位你就一間挑起來啦 責無旁貸 可以這樣講嗎我想在性質上應該是不太一樣的財政部當然對於裁員的籌措是責無旁貸"},{"start":5893.3,"end":5917.273,"text":"那對於未來管理這個基金是由哪一個部會來做的話我想行政院會詳細的一個規劃跟討論管理我們要修專法嘛但是籌措是財政部這沒錯吧財源的籌措當然是財政部的籌措我要請教這個嚴副總裁央行適不適合你運不易當主管單位"},{"start":5920.438,"end":5946.279,"text":"主權基金如果成立的話總統就要成立了報告委員因為我們的外匯管理資產外匯存體的管理和主權基金的管理是完全是兩所以我覺得這個不應該由央行去追討央行不適合啦本來央行就不適合啦來來來先不要跑先不要跑你不要急著走啊我們都沒有問題啊"},{"start":5947.914,"end":5953.805,"text":"來 請問央行現在有沒有把O2存體委外代鈔有沒有"},{"start":5954.349,"end":5966.299,"text":"有 我們1990年代初期就開始 一年都有到現在還有現在多少呢 114年預估2.25% 額外去年2.25% 額外 實際是1.87結果呢 績效都比你們差嘛 對不對"},{"start":5978.752,"end":6001.24,"text":"那個報告委員 委外操作其實我們一方面是學習新的信用三筆操作另外一個也可以藉這個委外操作去學習很多先進的資產管理同時你要問你就是委外操作的錢那個報酬是不是比你自己操來的差我問你這個"},{"start":6002.36,"end":6006.844,"text":"沒有 我們有說過可能不能夠由一兩年的資料去看我們如果看過去十年或二十年 其實那個委外操作的績效還是有它的參考價值的"},{"start":6022.165,"end":6050.998,"text":"也比央行自己操作好嗎這個其實就是回答您的問題就是其實每年度會有差異啦這幾年都不好啦這幾年度這三年都不好啦所以我們也把有一些經營不好的那個委外操作的把它收回來我聽你講話你都不會接我的意思就是你央行自己做還比委外別人來的好對不對你何必要委外這個東西就是要大家不要打你的主意啦"},{"start":6051.878,"end":6058.481,"text":"你來自己做還比較好,你聽不懂還在那裡散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散散"},{"start":6081.77,"end":6097.513,"text":"那來來來就請教部長啊因為今天國安會沒有來其實就是兩個單位啦不然財政部不然就國安會可是國安會國發基金啊這到目前為止都虧損沒累啊做啥料啥做到處啥料啥"},{"start":6098.462,"end":6114.464,"text":"對不對,所以看起來是你就比較適合然後我那顆呢,這裡面你先不要否定我,過兩天就是你啦跟你講,你就跑不掉了啦你有沒有想過,外界最擔心的是什麼"},{"start":6115.945,"end":6122.513,"text":"外界最擔心的就是主權基金又變成如果你那個中間設計的不好又開始變成達證第二外界擔心這個啦達證你知道達證嗎"},{"start":6133.344,"end":6152.058,"text":"我覺得委員當然是考量的就是說未來在投資的部分人模不章啊裡面通通是有心人在那裡亂搞上下其所怕的是這個啦那誰要扛責任啊問題是這樣子的這個問題出問題誰扛 請問部長在制度設計上我想應該要去考量的這個要規範清楚喔規範清楚喔 這個"},{"start":6163.291,"end":6168.375,"text":"請教部長啊 你這次是去閩南參加ADB嘛 對不對好 韓國的財政部副部長公開說韓國財政部副部長公開說美國的代表美國財政部代表有跟大家講關稅匯率的問題請問美國代表有沒有跟你講匯率的問題沒有"},{"start":6192.131,"end":6219.714,"text":"沒有 央行代表有去央行央行是有代表去 對 沒有錯有沒有跟央行代表講這個我並不清楚央行代表我沒有收到這個訊息 我也不知道好 所以你不知道 那讓各位知道川普二月份的時候提到用關稅成立主權基金"},{"start":6220.959,"end":6237.9,"text":"所以這個某種程度是Echo我剛才論點的Echo這個央行的態度要用自己的錢不是外匯存體的錢因為關稅收進來變美國的錢用自己的錢去成立主權基金"},{"start":6239.797,"end":6258.382,"text":"財政部要求說你要不然就是發債要不然就是發債而且現在這個時機丟出來賴總統丟出來外界高度質疑剛才這個民進黨的執政黨委員來講啊擴大投資美國啊這就是外界擔心的啊錢送美國啊"},{"start":6259.99,"end":6274.297,"text":"執政黨委員都這樣講了講到我們的心坎處啊為什麼這個時候提出來現在就大放送給美國就是這樣啦不然突然再講一個主權基金那個記憶果這個東西央行綁了這麼久"},{"start":6277.162,"end":6284.547,"text":"講了這麼久 還在討論 討論 討論噢 動出來了為什麼因為關稅談判在即啊賴總統急著把錢要送給美國啦就是這樣而已啦你看好了大舉投資美國請問長官"},{"start":6301.255,"end":6314.323,"text":"未來主權基金怎麼樣的投資都還要再規劃所以我看就知道了嘛 莊部長一路就要跳起來了嘛好 那我現在請時間暫停請八位光谷的董事長過來好嗎"},{"start":6330.455,"end":6342.165,"text":"我是請教各位啊 各位動作快遞付時間 怕影響下面的委員我只問一個簡單的問題四月二號對等關稅之後請問各行庫有沒有賣美債 有沒有有的舉手 贏了 舉手啊"},{"start":6357.287,"end":6362.191,"text":"在這裡不能說的話 你也不要講話 舉手就好了有沒有賣美債 有沒有沒有賣美債的舉手啊怎麼會這個趙鋒等等 兩個都沒有舉手 行了吧報告委員 因為這個教育的數字我必須要再去查一下 我不確定印象都沒有印象我不確定後面那個舉手的是哪一家"},{"start":6387.366,"end":6408.907,"text":"那個 彰化銀行 我們有適度做一些調解適度做一些調解來 我請教央行的副總裁有沒有賣美債 有沒有那個 報告委員 因為我們的那個資金操作我們隨時都會有買有賣的情形Net Net Net Net"},{"start":6411.397,"end":6432.555,"text":"那個報告委員因為我今天準備的是房地產所以我沒有特別去記那個數如果事後我可以提供給您參考我所知道啦NET是沒有啦NET是沒有啦因為沒賣幾乎沒有啦因為幾乎沒有動啦其他的行戶幾乎都有賣啦對吧"},{"start":6436.943,"end":6459.812,"text":"你們回去查一下 師傅給你們報告好不好這個我要提的東西就是現在美債被穆迪來嫁了那就請教金管會的平組委啊現在因為這個主要影響最大是授權公司啦IFRS17本來預定明年"},{"start":6461.241,"end":6484.312,"text":"市用上路嘛對不對是的會不會影響目前沒有這個規劃沒有影響先等一等不要急嘛不要急前面沒有拖很久啦我都讓你拖很久我都讓你拖很久我讓莊家斌拖了二十分鐘咧不要這樣急嘛這個沒問題好幾位董事長可以回去了齁"},{"start":6487.315,"end":6493.258,"text":"最後一個 財政部長留下來就好了因為今天主題我一定要問一下主委可以回去了主任財政部長房屋稅2.0從居住市值變成社級造成了很像東非的動物大遷徙因為比如說"},{"start":6512.988,"end":6534.682,"text":"張三房子一棟車子車庫一戈不同的全裝結果就要課不同的稅懲罰單身嘛你們現在700多萬單一的資用的稅已經交了可是200多萬的各種樣態財政部等你們寒市你們什麼時候寒市可以出來"},{"start":6536.898,"end":6561.711,"text":"單獨這個部分這個禮拜就一定會出來這個禮拜出來好喔這個禮拜一定會出來你所得稅都可以延到六月底的為什麼黃稅這個亂象乾脆延到六月底啊如果要有更正稅單這種情況的話繳款期限都會往後延的可以延到六月底這個部分各地方我們在發單的時候他看他發單的時候他就會往後延好謝謝是我沒有超過五分鐘啦好啦謝謝來謝謝"},{"start":6568.449,"end":6578.473,"text":"這個我拿下去謝謝主席 有請金管會彭主委彭主委"},{"start":6595.04,"end":6602.389,"text":"主委你好主委最近有一家公司中頂工程公司出了一個大狀況他的運送賬款高達196億他總淨值也不過是196億就這麼剛好"},{"start":6610.66,"end":6625.814,"text":"可是這裡頭有很大的問題是說中頂在兩年前就知道這個工程款有出一些問題但是還不斷地投入這個工程費用累積起來的金額才會虧損越來越大但是該發重訊的時候"},{"start":6626.815,"end":6650.703,"text":"他發了 但是卻是不實的重訊說對他財務都沒有什麼影響但是今年第一期已經認列31億的虧損還自稱說他可以收回來後續的196億可是問題雙方的合約的認知當中就差了4億美元也就是說4億美元當中呢是雙方的認知的差異就120億根本收不回來的情況底下他對外還宣稱他可以收了回來"},{"start":6653.078,"end":6678.474,"text":"這家中頂公司呢在過去ESG的時候在治理的部分的評鑑是前5%的殊榮在ESG的治理評鑑而且連續六屆還有100億以上非金融私人電子業的前10%看起來表現這麼好但是呢這結果在它4月16號的時候在突然告訴大家說有196億可能收不回來股價連跌四天這簡直是在坑殺股民嘛"},{"start":6680.063,"end":6708.488,"text":"股民當下就當損失了35%而且不只是股民損失連員工啊三個員工信託還損失了18億而且還有三家銀行也倒霉永豐銀行彰化銀行還有玉山銀行可是這件事情啊我看到就只有徵交所因為違約的問題罰他20萬從頭到尾都沒有看到主管機關金管會表示過任何意見主委是狀況外嗎"},{"start":6710.021,"end":6732.227,"text":"我想這個如果說剛才像委員提到是因為重訓的問題還有這樣合約的問題我們交易所確實會有一套的程序就如委員講的這個不過這個金額重大也影響到市場的這個剛才看到這個股價有顯著的影響嚴重一點這搞不好是變相的掏空欸嚴重一點搞不好是特別類型欸 主委"},{"start":6736.529,"end":6762.034,"text":"196億欸 坑殺多少股民他對外謊稱還說可以收回來100多億事實上合約落差就差了4億美元之多啊不時中憲的處罰最低28 最高480這期局都沒有動欸我們不知道張局長在忙什麼主委你在忙什麼這件事情監管會完全完全狀況外而且他還有市民讀懂喔"},{"start":6763.354,"end":6785.468,"text":"這四名獨董都是在馬英九時期的官員喔一個是李建宗喔工程委員會副主委 施南祥以前當過經濟部長喔還有一個央行的外匯局局長喔 顏輝煌喔都是一時之選啊四個獨董是啞巴是不是跟委員報告一下 現在交易所還在瞭解中蛤 交易所還在瞭解中 你這是官話嘛"},{"start":6786.896,"end":6815.388,"text":"已經兩三年了4月份就虧損了35%你現在告訴我交易所還在瞭解說交易所已經罰他20萬了是你正期會需要瞭解中吧重大訊息都沒有做任何的表示意見這件事情要怎麼處理這個案子我會立刻請我們交易所審慎來處理一來內控失靈啊二來有沒有外控機制啊"},{"start":6817.422,"end":6830.399,"text":"類似這麼重大事件我們的投保中心或者我們相關的主管機關銀行局或者保險局能不能委託會計處去查核去了解主委"},{"start":6835.834,"end":6853.99,"text":"這些部分的話是說這跟我們的保險局是要去查核我會請我們政企局跟交易所來好好來處理這個案子對啦事情已經這麼嚴重了而且還不只一家後面還有後面還有一個台積電的概念股"},{"start":6855.491,"end":6881.436,"text":"這個叫萬刃科技他明明是受到駭客的這一個集團的勒索在4月20號重大訊息的時候說沒有個資沒有機密的問題沒有重大文件的歪落結果5月17號人家就把他公布出來了一樣是重大訊息不是金管會有沒有做什麼類似的事件啊我想剛才委員提到一而再再而三的發生啊主委"},{"start":6882.398,"end":6882.979,"text":"兩個案子多久給本席答覆"},{"start":6901.415,"end":6916.075,"text":"我想當然這個時間我們會盡快但是這部分應該是要我不是背賴我相信你辦事的能力先釐清先釐清那主委我再就教您一個問題這個問題您是專家那我是粗淺的了解"},{"start":6916.956,"end":6930.815,"text":"但是就相關的數字當中大家都知道台幣的升值對受選公司的影響非常之大在四月份的時候就已經六大公司就已經虧損一百八十億那時候升值不過三點六四五月份的時候升值超過六"},{"start":6932.037,"end":6956.144,"text":"那我們知道淨池是浮動的但是保險公司因為淨池的浮動視為一個利多或利空的現象的各自解讀只要賺錢他說是對的虧錢也說是對的但是在帳與碟之間差別非常的大在2021年的時候有一年金管會就核准了9家受險公司給他發562億的現金鼓勵去年又出現了赤膏"},{"start":6963.178,"end":6981.717,"text":"聽說有好幾家這個受選公司說也要求比照辦理要發240億的現金鼓勵有沒有這回事其實應該是這樣講就是說公司的經營比如說今年看到的現金鼓勵發放其實是去年績效我想這個大概都是按照這個規定來做那"},{"start":6982.378,"end":6998.201,"text":"保險業比較特殊他們的現金鼓勵的發放要經過我們保險局的審查也是要考慮到這個問題那如果說他已經比如說已經這個程序做完了東西那他已經程序做完了那符合這個規定他當然去發那至於說你要讓他發了嗎"},{"start":6999.722,"end":7026.75,"text":"這個東西先跟委員報告一下就是說我們今天假設說還在程序中的話因為這部分的話我們也要尊重因為我們做完的裁定這是去年的事情剛剛講損益的數字波動也有我們已經考量到現金發放我們已經考量到它很多人的因素已經做出了我不要讓他去那個2021發完沒多久美國升息禁止暴跌之後隔年這個星光人壽就因為RBC不足然後就要增資了嗎"},{"start":7027.77,"end":7048.618,"text":"你不覺得很荒謬嗎這個當然委員關係的事啦像比如說我們有些公司如果還沒有發放的他來申請的我們就會跟他請他做這個評估你這四家我認為你要好好的思考清楚其實每一家都要好好思考對 每一家都要好好思考每一次申請都要好好思考當然我們現金鼓勵其實這樣子你隨便讓他賬面稍微好一點那改天又跌了"},{"start":7049.258,"end":7069.555,"text":"在漲與跌之間然後就在漲的時候就可以發股利跌的時候又不一定拿得出錢你看現在RBC的狀況其實我們現在的審查機制已經考慮到這些內容因為像我們其他的銀行的話他是不需要做這樣的審查因為財報的屬性剛剛委員講的財報的屬性不一樣您最清楚啦我會私底下才能請教您啦可是這個問題就是因為受顯業的特殊性嘛"},{"start":7073.018,"end":7097.533,"text":"不應該他跟一般公司一樣嘛 帳面上看起來好像有就可以發但是帳面上沒有的時候他補不出來啊如果真的去了解他比如說財報上的損益跟他真的發放其實會有大大的距離所以說你已經決定要發了嗎我剛跟我們報告過就是說我們已經核准過的因為政府是他執行公權力的部分那現在這幾家呢現在這幾家我們會再來請他們審慎思考你要審慎思考一下啦"},{"start":7098.493,"end":7112.189,"text":"另外一個RBC的部分目前為止不足200的大概有多少家就你所掌握的RBC的部分其實上因為我們現在一家就一家現在RBC"},{"start":7113.77,"end":7140.765,"text":"因為跟我們報告這是時間差的關係啦因為我們是每半年看一次不是每天在看場地上就是12月31號跟6月30號我希望你時常好好的watch一下啦這個我們每天都在watch最後我還有一個問題要問您你知道今天央行的報告當中就是資本集中度雖然有下滑但是還過度於偏重於這一個不動產的部分"},{"start":7142.858,"end":7166.533,"text":"現階段這個財政部有要求嚴格的管控希望不論這個建商的存款多少他要販款的部分的額度要朝向降低集中度降低不要偏重特定部門這也是符合央行目前的一個報告的方式但我就就教於主委啦財政部所管轄不過公股銀行八大銀行而已我想請教一下主委是不是應該所有的銀行都應該比照辦理"},{"start":7167.653,"end":7196.101,"text":"其實我們已經逐步在做這件事也是這個是政策我們基於風險管理的角度其實央行的政策是整體國家的房地產政策不是只有針對公股銀行的房地產政策那如果是這樣子你覺得這樣下降的幅度怎麼樣其實因為這個市場上有它一定的我們也希望說能夠用政策的導引我們也確實看到剛剛講那個不管成長率或是真的也在下降中好"},{"start":7197.281,"end":7224.913,"text":"謝謝主委我耽誤一下主席一分鐘主委還有我謝謝主席而已最後一個部分主委有一個委託書的制度我不談個案我談這個一般而言外資來到台灣10%以上的話要經過我們的投審會10%以下的話他基本上可以透過有限徵求或無限徵求的方式比如說10%以下他的有限徵求跟無限徵求都可以達到一定的程度介入這個經營權"},{"start":7227.495,"end":7247.474,"text":"這個問題確實是 我覺得是一個漏洞對 這個確實 我們正在檢討這件事情因為當時任何的外資在投資台灣都有他的目的目的不同 審核的程序是不同的那我們也在盤點這些是否有些可能被拿來做一個不當的利用 我們正在處理中"},{"start":7248.095,"end":7262.471,"text":"然後舉其例啦譬如講你如果化齡為整而想要爭奪這個經營權或介入經營權的情況底下是不是應該再回到投審會的方式再審查一次這個其實我們一開始審查就是分流"},{"start":7263.012,"end":7281.638,"text":"是一個比如說你是一個直接投資FDI還有就是超過一定股權以上本來就是由投審會來做這個審查其他所謂的目的單純的財務投資那當然就是由金管會基於因為國際的資金的流通所以如果說你的目的是不同的那當然就要就是換軌嘛"},{"start":7283.118,"end":7296.323,"text":"就要回到他的本意去對 應該回到投審會一起來審查他才能夠公開的介入或者其他的方式處理分流的本意對啦 麻煩你跟投審會我們已經在處理中我們已經打成一個機制的設計好不好是的好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席好 謝謝郭委員的諮詢下面請賴會員召委諮詢進"},{"start":7307.01,"end":7310.412,"text":"謝謝主席 有請金管會彭主委還有卡局賴局長主委早安我想先從這個2005年我們的卡債風波其實那時候的債權高達7900萬那7900萬我們看到了就是說"},{"start":7332.725,"end":7359.525,"text":"在2005年這個債權就是當時銀行的債權就高達7900億了那新型態的一個債權其實我們知道是來自於融資公司光是五大主任公司的中古車的業務的一個規模來看我們都擔心說在下一波最大的消費者債務風暴可能會是來自於這個融資公司"},{"start":7360.505,"end":7366.911,"text":"我們單單以一個社工他在講,他說,層出不窮的一個貸款,貸辦的一個詐騙業務他這一個新型態的債務已經年輕化了,新型態的債務我們統稱大概是租賃"},{"start":7381.601,"end":7402.706,"text":"我們看很多年輕人他們其實負債的原因竟然是詐騙他們為什麼需要去借錢竟然是因為事業資金的一個需求然後第二項竟然是詐騙可見這個詐騙其實也是目前我們一直要去考慮到他的"},{"start":7403.286,"end":7426.888,"text":"那我們再來講最近就是我們的ATM每日的提款的一個額度這個額度就是說我們知道那個國泰世華他在去年的12月14號他已經調降金融的那個提款每天的提款從20萬把它調到15萬甚至就是說兆豐的數位帳戶"},{"start":7428.77,"end":7442.537,"text":"帳號已經調到就是說你每一天只領到一萬那在這裡請教主委就是銀行是基於什麼樣的一個理由來調那個調降每日的這個提款的額度呢你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":7443.457,"end":7467.157,"text":"我想今天待會兒銀行局局長在這邊還有我們兆豐的董事長也在這邊我先就儘管會這邊因為其實上因為當然很多的因素我們推測是因為當然各家銀行基於自己的風險管控還有最近詐騙很多他們會根據他銀行的屬性客戶的屬性跟提款的金額做分析自己決定這個金額的限制"},{"start":7468.078,"end":7483.615,"text":"我想這個也是因為我們整個的剛剛講所謂的保護民眾的財產安全當然這會造成一些不便我們銀行自己要承受一些客戶的怨言可是主委這個就是跟上一次我們一起討論的就是那個取消自然人憑證"},{"start":7485.257,"end":7501.325,"text":"可以完全去風險化的經營你看這個在美國在其他的國家他們已經是利用ATM就是說智慧性的一個半零貴的一個服務大眾了難道其他的國家沒有詐騙的這些問題嗎其實這個全世界都非常嚴重"},{"start":7502.405,"end":7520.307,"text":"當然啊,可是人家也勇於就是說我敢就是讓我的ATM服務服務就是這一些提款人然後又可以防堵詐騙啊對啊,所以其實我們市場上也不是所有的銀行都這麼做,因為我們其實有時候可是你已經你的銀行陸續在調整喔"},{"start":7522.609,"end":7538.923,"text":"對 就是因為有時候是從20萬調整到15萬就是一直下降啊確實這裡是我們會關切喔就如果說已經影響到民眾的基本權利當然在很多狀況不是很清楚的情況銀行會先做一個預印然後再看看主委我想你應該想一些比較就是"},{"start":7539.423,"end":7563.654,"text":"比較智慧性的一個方式來服務大家而不是用黃賭的方式理解 我可以請銀行局長跟您簡單的回覆一下嗎沒關係 這個我們事後再來討論那接著跟主委探討一下年增的一個次數的限制到底這個年增次數的限制有沒有符合金融自由市場"},{"start":7564.714,"end":7585.465,"text":"的一個需求我們常常就看到了銀行法規的一個規定就是說在三個月中你如果申請那個三次的話就不能貸款這到底年增中心講的是不是這是真的嗎各位我們抱歉這個我確實沒有那麼清楚我請銀行局長跟您解釋謝謝"},{"start":7589.101,"end":7602.54,"text":"這個應該是銀行從他的獸性失誤來看就是說當一個人他頻繁的去被查詢連徵那可能是他在資金的需求上會有比較急迫的一個情況不過這個並不能夠作為說銀行巨大的一個理由"},{"start":7603.669,"end":7627.784,"text":"所以當然銀行是不能這樣做的如果說我就是在這個幾個月內我又要信用卡開戶那我又要到銀行就是帳戶我的證件開戶的話那我辦信用卡我可能就是會在短時間我可能會有連續幾次那就是說會用到這個年增的一個次數所以這樣子顯然如果像局長你這樣子講的話這顯然是詐騙"},{"start":7630.205,"end":7644.919,"text":"集團的一個術語而不是就是我們銀行的一個堅持如果你這樣看的話是同意委員的一個看法所以這個是那個貸款那個貸片那個貸棒的一個話術"},{"start":7647.581,"end":7663.548,"text":"你的看法啦對這個在銀行的那個評分系統裡面他或許會有些銀行他會把他納為一個評估的因素但年增次數查詢多次這個絕對不會是銀行作為借貸的一個條件那是銀行的一個內規嗎銀行管理上的一個內規就是"},{"start":7665.469,"end":7687.556,"text":"對 銀行回歸到他的那個風險系統裡面他對每一個風險因子他都會有不同的權術那這個部分當然是回歸到所以你看啊就被這些那個貸款那個貸辦的就是把它用來做一個他們等於是詐騙的一個手法那這個部分根本也沒有報告我們禁止銀行接受貸辦禁建"},{"start":7690.081,"end":7704.356,"text":"當然啊 當然我們是一定是禁止啊可是問題是你這個禁止好像也禁不了啊你看還是窮窮不窮啊我們會從日常監理跟金融檢查這兩個管道嚴格的去杜絕銀行的進建是從代辦公室進來的"},{"start":7705.458,"end":7721.894,"text":"是沒有錯可是你一直黃賭他他還是一樣我們用113年9月到12月的詐騙案件的前十大被害這個被害的一個方式我們看到了這個113年的案子你看男生被害的"},{"start":7722.635,"end":7739.188,"text":"還有就是排序就是謊稱是代辦貸款這個第六名那免信貸款代辦被騙錢的是第八名這個普遍還是存在的那顯然就是說我們這些防堵的效果就不明確"},{"start":7740.872,"end":7757.079,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分我們會從兩個面向來著手第一個部分我們會持續的要求銀行是絕對不能夠接受任何一件代辦進來的案件那另外一個部分委員剛才有提到這樣子一個現象我們會加強在金融宣導的部分會加強的宣導"},{"start":7758.346,"end":7785.624,"text":"會加強先導我就覺得說這個如果在我們金管會一直在強調普惠金融這個實在是有一點這個諷刺你看我們在警政署在4月2號今年的4月2號詐騙的統計當中他上那個去年的下半年的前十大詐騙方式他這個那個貸款的那個代辦他還是榜上有名"},{"start":7786.505,"end":7806.319,"text":"那可見就是說我們這幾年我們這些普惠金融我們這些黃賭顯然是沒有效尤其是那個金管會大概是在每年的過年你就會有一次的一個宣導那就是提醒大家不要被騙可是你們一直就是做了這些事情的時候"},{"start":7808.499,"end":7834.362,"text":"可是還是很多人被騙那感謝委員的提醒我想這個詐騙我們深惡痛絕那方法我們不能昭示用老所以我們當然就是說我們會來這個委員的提醒我們也會跟銀行來想想看除了我們過去宣導加強查核以外有沒有更積極的作為因為這是一個老問題但是我們想新方法來解決我們來加強謝謝委員的提醒好 主委"},{"start":7835.663,"end":7863.015,"text":"那我們用新方法在去年的7月我們已經通過了詐欺犯罪危害防治條例那這個防治條例如果金管會跟蘇阿部共同研擬加強防治就是查緝那個貸款的貸辦的一個詐騙這個有沒有效那如果有效的話你是不是我想有效沒有效這個是一定要研究的你說我們假設他是透過廣告的部分的話我們來"},{"start":7864.235,"end":7891.68,"text":"真的這部分我們本來就有一個有系統的偵測詐騙廣告的查緝的這個作為那我們也可以把這個列為未來相關的比如說關鍵字啊這些東西我們先從救援在廣告上面就來處理也是一條路但是我們就會跟這個相關的我們單位在演繹假設這個問題我們想想看有什麼更好的方法來處理這問題不過委員剛剛提起來這還是很多就是說當然就像我們過去在做打詐的時候是"},{"start":7893.068,"end":7896.202,"text":"這個不打更炸所以我們希望說但是招式一定要"},{"start":7899.084,"end":7925.131,"text":"與時俱進我們的方法要來改變以時俱進所以就是說我現在就是請教主委如果這樣子的話這個金保法的一個那個就是也是有把這個我們的金融那個就是代辦那個貸款代辦的一個業務納入金融服務業那是不是就是說我想也是在一個月內提供一個書面的報告這邊我們會來"},{"start":7928.272,"end":7938.898,"text":"會來按照這個報告提出不過我們認為說這個東西要納入的話也是要多方評估我們再把這個意見再跟委員報告好 謝謝謝謝主席謝謝賴常委我們現在會請李燕秀委員質詢我們要報告委員會我們在等下一位宗嘉斌委員質詢結束之後我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":7953.707,"end":7953.888,"text":"主席"},{"start":7966.801,"end":7994.776,"text":"副總裁我就直接就我的議題我想在總質詢的時候我曾經也跟卓院長討論過成立主權基金那果然在520這一天昨天賴總統就特別提到主權基金的問題那我當時我在總質詢的時候我有特別提到就是說到底評估報告什麼時候會出來整個央行的評估報告到底什麼時候可以給我你們當時有承諾我要給我評估報告是一個月還是三個月"},{"start":7996.818,"end":7999.299,"text":"昨天賴總統講到主權基金這件事情我個人是支持的"},{"start":8010.58,"end":8029.946,"text":"但是賴總統在講這件事情都沒跟你們都沒有一個評估報告出來嗎跟總統報告嗎這個對國家的正面或者是我們要我們要如何做我想你們應該還是一個整理評估報告吧那個報告委員從歷任的政府總統總評會評估報告就丟出來好我希望我希望"},{"start":8030.766,"end":8054.277,"text":"三個月之內把評估報告完整詳細的評估報告給我因為這個主權基金我相信在國外許多國家其實運作的都非常的好但是如何維持它獨立性跟它的防弊性我覺得是要這國人大家都關注的那另外目前我們有沒有預計賴總統昨天說了我們何時會成立是一年兩年還是有沒有時間表"},{"start":8057.121,"end":8074.494,"text":"這個還是要由那個整個行政院在討論才能確定因為還要涉及到修法這些問題專法的設置這樣子好那您個人認為到底未來這個基金的部分是來自外匯存體還是四大基金我想那個楊總在5月8號的報告已經很明確的點出我們的對這個問題的看法"},{"start":8080.24,"end":8095.606,"text":"內容是什麼基本上它有三種方式財政部的發債財政部撥款或者是財政部出資那這是我們可以看到我們參考主要參考新加坡和中國的經驗也不會動到四大基金也不會有減持美債的問題都沒有這是細節的問題啦這不是細節的問題因為四大基金有它的法源它自己在運作中資金的來源很重要"},{"start":8109.942,"end":8129.954,"text":"我當時在總質詢的時候我特別有提到對於主權基金這件事情未來一定要成立專法第二政府不能求援兼裁判第三要符合遵守聖利亞哥原則也就是說資金來源它必須由整個政府統籌規劃而且不能無常撥用"},{"start":8131.275,"end":8152.635,"text":"這些大原則只是讓基金運作維持它的獨立性但是國人更關注從這兩天媒體更關注的就是說基金主權基金在很多國家運作的很好持正面但是如何幫國人擔心的是如何防弊包括未來會不會變成第二個達政案或者是未來如何防弊它有可能變成黨權基金"},{"start":8155.918,"end":8176.316,"text":"這個都是要跟國人交代清楚的所以我期望在這個專案報告裡面就是說你們評估報告裡面這些事情必須要交代清楚所以如果你剛才講資金來源那未來所以完全不會由外匯存底這邊來去做資金的來源之一嗎不會"},{"start":8177.017,"end":8178.48,"text":"會不會低於未來外匯全體投資運用的報酬2.6%"},{"start":8190.011,"end":8206.719,"text":"因為主權基金他的投資的報酬率偏高但是他的也面臨很大的風險這跟外匯存體的操作是不一樣所以我提的是說央行有償借用的部分不得低於央行現在外匯存體的投資運用2.6"},{"start":8208.874,"end":8219.218,"text":"照理說是這樣子所以我剛剛一開始才提到就是說必須要有長波用那有長波用就得付利息啊你的利息就不能低於現在外匯城裡的投資運用的報酬2.6%"},{"start":8221.477,"end":8247.603,"text":"這個是我們以後在思考這種委外操作的時候我們有一個基本的標準那是不是適用在這個未來的國家主權我再提一次就是未來那個必須要成立專法不能求人兼裁判必須要有專責的主管機關如何不能無常撥用而且必須遵守聖地牙格的原則那如何防弊的部分我覺得也是整個央行要對外交代清楚好我時間先暫停"},{"start":8249.404,"end":8253.288,"text":"財化法的實施日期我們公告日期到底是幾月幾號哪一年什麼時候"},{"start":8271.008,"end":8285.244,"text":"這次修法通過的時間我記得是去年三讀通過後來總統公佈實施的日期修正實施的日期是什麼時候開始3月吧3月好那我就跟你講答案是114年的3月21號是今年的對好是今年那"},{"start":8291.25,"end":8299.873,"text":"當時我記得卓文泰院長提到複裕三月再提出複裕的時候報告也寫得很清楚他當時說公佈實施日期認為沒有準備的時間作為複裕的理由所以很明確實施日期就是3月21號114年那部長我要提醒你就是法律的解釋"},{"start":8312.037,"end":8331.829,"text":"千萬不要當作政治工具如果當時才化法我們當時有寫一條就是說我們對於地方的補助不得低於前一年當時那個才化法有寫一個但書我不應該講但書裡面條文有寫得很清楚對於地方補助不能低於前一年"},{"start":8332.449,"end":8344.574,"text":"所以如果我們公告日期不是如果確定公告日期從當時的文字包括卓院長夫妻的理由都是公告日期都是114年3月21號所以他的基期就是前一年113年所以地方的補助應該是回歸到用113年來去做基期"},{"start":8356.319,"end":8376.772,"text":"所以這個部分我必須要提醒你們的所以未來在編列一般補助款的時候就不能隨便去做調整這是依法一般性補助款的編列是在主計總署我知道我知道但是我只是提醒你我只是提醒你們跟主計總署主計總署今天有來嗎"},{"start":8378.473,"end":8391.213,"text":"今天沒有主席總署我只是提醒你們這件事情法律上文字寫得很清楚而且有入法就是不得低於前一年時間先暫停部長你請回我請彭主委"},{"start":8396.613,"end":8414.38,"text":"主委因為時間一直在跑我今天議題非常多我另外一個就是我接受到陳情的有關於IPO的責任額我們目前ETF市場爆出IPO之亂那也引起很多音樂園也好寫了很多檢舉信函要終結IPO的暴力制度"},{"start":8419.602,"end":8438.01,"text":"主委你對於這件事情因為我知道幾個券商其實都對於內部的音樂園有給一些責任而的壓力那對於定責任而這件事情你的看法到底如何合不合什麼樣是一個合理的做法那我們如何去做一些調整或改善"},{"start":8439.03,"end":8454.624,"text":"報告委員,我想在所有的金融機構各行各業都一樣所有的業務單位定有責任額是非常普遍而且是非常常見的現象但責任額合不合理這件事情才是它的關鍵"},{"start":8456.426,"end":8480.127,"text":"我想這部分金融機構是受高度監理行業我們收到的檢舉信以後我們也非常重視我們在第一時間在我們的業務會議上我們就討論過這件事情我們責成我們相關的各個業務局趕快去了解這個狀況有沒有涉及到一些勞政法規的違反還有就是我們講我們在有沒有做這樣會促進不當的所謂的銷售我們正在了解請他們再匯報這個想法"},{"start":8482.889,"end":8501.255,"text":"這個是牽涉到各個公司各自的營運但是我剛才講就是說責任的這件事情並不是新的東西我想大家都知道我理解各行各業他總是會定一個目標嘛KPI嘛但是怎麼樣因為我必須要提出說像去年00940一屋風的強國我的意思就是說東西產品體質是好的是健康的"},{"start":8505.416,"end":8530.309,"text":"大家看得清清楚楚自然大家都會去買所以怎麼樣是一個合理的責任額那特別是我們現在整個金融產業面臨很多國際性的挑戰那這些營業員又要賣國內外的期貨又有相關的保險又有海外的債券要去做處理所以其實身心壓力也都蠻大的怎麼樣是一個健康的市場健康的工作環境"},{"start":8532.83,"end":8533.611,"text":"我們會盡快的來處理這件事情"},{"start":8549.324,"end":8562.539,"text":"所以會訂出一個比較合理的管控辦其實這個問題是非常每家公司的制度不一樣但是我們會先請相關的工會先用一個自律的方式去了解這件事情然後再訂出一個合理的規範"},{"start":8563.373,"end":8589.139,"text":"好 謝謝主委我第二個問題我要請問一下就是行員挪用前一陣子有何故富邦金 凱基銀行人員挪用客戶款項的這些問題那過去黃天牧黃主委他有過裁罰那我們最近這幾次我看到只有做糾正那糾正這個處分會不會太微不足道或者是我們有沒有其他的管控的辦法去加強"},{"start":8590.399,"end":8617.603,"text":"這些金融機構的內控的機制你有什麼樣的做法謝謝委員剛好也給我個機會來說明這件事情其實剛才舉的說其實我們在過去歷任主委其實對於我們所謂的挪用這樣一個事情其實都有不同的處理也都有採取非常多糾正的案例這個倒不是採取什麼方式最重要我們的銀行法的規定我們本來建制有三道機制"},{"start":8618.303,"end":8635.621,"text":"如果銀行在自己在第一到第二到就主動發現了這件事情那這是我們本來建立這個內控制度最重要的我們不會因為這樣而去處罰他而且他已經確實的去防止代表他的內控機制是穩健的我想立正主委的標準都一樣所以你個人覺得糾正就夠了不是"},{"start":8636.181,"end":8664.188,"text":"就是這個東西但是我跟委員報告如果說今天是已經穿透了三道防線比如說客戶來檢舉才知道像比如說很多人說這個案子為什麼過去罰得重這些是銀行他自己渾然不知到客戶發覺我的短掃的時候才來那當然即便你主動通報我照樣一樣是要處罰這我想這法上非常的明確只是假設把一個例子不當的比較我覺得不是很好我想我們都是依法辦理"},{"start":8665.134,"end":8688.876,"text":"我理解依法辦理但是未來如何不再有類似的狀況發生你這個機制只有糾正到底夠不夠我尊重我尊重因為每個人做法不一樣我們是要達到最好的內控不再發生類似的狀況發生所以我想要多去再做進一步的事我們一向就是我們其實定規定是行其無形不是因為我們會區分各種不同的樣態"},{"start":8690.317,"end":8712.108,"text":"對一個已經善盡自我管控的銀行這種微小的措施要主動舉報我們當然是鼓勵這個比如說他們要所以你可以用很多不同的彈性就對了這個本來法規就很明確的規定不能用最終的結果說這個叫做糾正叫輕這個叫罰叫重其實如果仔細研究案情都是不一樣的好 謝謝主委謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝李委員的質詢下面請周委員質詢總經理委員請"},{"start":8722.039,"end":8724.616,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8733.994,"end":8752.37,"text":"主席 在場委員先進 列席的政府將上 官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請我們央行的嚴副總裁財政部莊部長 以及金管會彭主委那麼彭主委那一段的部分 請銀行局跟保險局的兩位局長陪同"},{"start":8753.467,"end":8763.36,"text":"好 運動安全抱歉區的局長在碰壁stand by好 謝謝首先先請教我們先就叫主權基金來請教副總裁我們看到了昨天總統發表了"},{"start":8766.563,"end":8781.736,"text":"談話說成立主權基金正是時候那提到三個兼顧他要把國發基金轉為國內的產業再造提升產業的競爭力但是呢 強調我們的主權基金是要做國際的經濟戰略布局某個程度來講 簡單來講就是在國際上賺錢請問總裁認為總統這樣的一個是跟之前央行的主張是不是一致"},{"start":8790.441,"end":8813.728,"text":"我想這是我們看到的主權基金這樣的規劃的確是一個大翻箱我們也提到學者專家對這些有些建議這些建議也跟之前央行總裁的談法差不多譬如說不建議動用外匯存底或者政府來提撥預算這當然說如果動用外匯要用有償的方式再來也不支持央行作為主權基金的管理機構這兩點您都認同對"},{"start":8816.249,"end":8825.651,"text":"好那接下來問財政部長了來莊部長在前面上一頁學者建議說既然不要用外匯也不要提撥預算他用稅收的超徵你同意嗎認同嗎"},{"start":8827.263,"end":8850.226,"text":"主權基金成立的規模要有多大那稅收這個部分是不是足以支應這個是要考慮的就是說你也不反對它的規模如果需要動用到超增的稅收雖然我不太想用超增的字眼但是你也覺得財政部可以來支持是嗎這個部分要涉專法第二個依照現行的預算法裡面對於稅收如果執行的比預算好的話第一個要"},{"start":8850.747,"end":8856.379,"text":"第一個先還債那如果會動用到假設是用稅收超徵的部分那你認為會是財政部來作為主管機關嗎"},{"start":8859.035,"end":8881.409,"text":"我覺得這是兩件事情好來金管會主委謝謝兩件事情很清楚了那最後我們看後面下一頁所以如果說央行不適合那麼財政部也不適合那麼金管會您來建議一下作為局外人因為總統說要問幾個單位要問國發會要問央行還有其他的財經部門剛好您是財經部門當中一份子你覺得呢"},{"start":8882.52,"end":8906.407,"text":"我想委員給我一個問題其實剛才那個莊部長跟我們的副總裁都有做答覆他未來會按照我們這個院裡面的大家來協調來決定好等到總統問你的時候你再講謝謝副總裁請回接下來我要請教莊部長部長剛好前面幾位也問到了那個房屋稅已經召委排的目的那時候我問到了"},{"start":8907.908,"end":8919.523,"text":"這個共有房屋人為全部自住的房屋那您也馬上從善如流今天您的報告講了四個對不對那為了這樣的關係你們延長房屋稅的申報到今年的6月2號是嗎"},{"start":8921.758,"end":8938.39,"text":"所以你這段時間積極的收集各種的意見反應不是整個房屋稅延長到6月6日有問題的到6月6日有一些他們會重新開單的或有一些他要申報自住的部分是延長時間那您的報告當中提到的四個像樣態啦那這四種樣態如果他已經繳了稅了怎麼處理"},{"start":8942.416,"end":8967.615,"text":"如果已經繳了稅 如果要重新做調整更正的話 那當然要退稅啦退稅 那當然什麼時候會辦理 明擺的告訴民眾 很多民眾在問啊聽說這樣子可以優惠耶 可以回復自用優惠 那我怎麼辦 我已經繳了耶明擺的跟大家宣示可以嗎這個退稅當然是會由地方稅捐機關來做退稅所以你們會去協助地方機關公布這個退稅的簽完程序這個部分我們會請地方機關盡快的讓民眾知道"},{"start":8967.875,"end":8990.948,"text":"好 很好 那請來督促地方政府那如果6月2號都已經繳完了後來又發現了你們發現各地方政府你們去收集意見我上次要求你們收集嘛那有哪些樣態你們發現還是可以適用的那這些6月2號的民眾也是比照這樣的方式來辦理退稅囉我覺得應該是這樣好 那就麻煩你督導地方政府好 謝謝接下來我們來請教今晚的彭主委來"},{"start":8994.002,"end":9020.917,"text":"好 部長剛剛已經有委員在關心的這個題目就是所謂的ETF的IPO哇 看到很多投訴什麼營業員 禮專還有什麼責任回單的制度那現在對等關稅之後這個基金不太好賣結果大家還要自己想辦法找親友買這樣的亂象您覺得要怎麼樣去因應我想我剛剛也回答前位委員的意見我想第一個"},{"start":9022.478,"end":9037.02,"text":"金融機構本身它自己有它自己業績的管考的這樣那個制度但如果說它有不合理的情況或是不合時宜的做法那這個部分我們會先來了解很好所以不合理或不合時宜我們來看一下嘛"},{"start":9038.035,"end":9054.676,"text":"投信 現在金控底下都有投信 對不對那他們成立基金IPO他們底下有券商 券商有業務員 業務員去行銷但是呢 業務員人手比較少所以營業員也來幫忙好 不只如此喔現在在場的八家公府 航空 很多有金控的"},{"start":9055.217,"end":9065.412,"text":"他們這個時候因為投信的銷售需要找保管銀行所以銀行為了搶保管業務會努力的幫投信多賣有時候同一金庫底下的投信商品會請李專來代勞那如果請李專來跟客戶介紹這"},{"start":9069.079,"end":9091.388,"text":"也是無可厚非但是櫃檯人員的業務是什麼櫃檯人員是儲匯業務確認身份聯防機制零匯化事情很多啊您覺得櫃檯人員適合去分擔責任額嗎本來在銀行的櫃檯端就有明確的區分比如說你具有那個銷售金融商品資格的本來就不會由這個來做對就是禮專嘛所以是不是"},{"start":9092.068,"end":9116.858,"text":"你也認為櫃台人員的其他任務他不適合分配被要求去做責任額的分攤那當然各家公司應該都有明確的規定好那就麻煩你請你只要求銀行局要求不只是我們今天在場的八個公股行庫有這樣的情況的請銀行局要求避免讓我們既有的金融人員的分工因為業績的挂帥而造成了不應該的負擔好不好"},{"start":9117.858,"end":9140.071,"text":"金融商品的銷售本來有一套的行為規範我想銀行或各個金融機構都非常清楚這段時間請你們強化去做宣導跟要求接下來我們看一下最近發生一些車禍事故我們都知道本來的強車險它就有第三人責任險你覺得強車險到目前為止它的理賠金額它的保險方式足不足夠"},{"start":9141.223,"end":9169.784,"text":"我想這套制度其實是很久也發揮了它非常好的穩定社會的功能因為我們的強車險主要是保障被害人它不是保障加害人而設的所以它這個所有是有一套法律在明確規定它所有的給付跟條件的制度那我們從昨天的事故我們很不忍讓我們來看一下萬一的這個是萬一發生了假設今天家長開車去接小孩他就停在路邊"},{"start":9171.005,"end":9198.513,"text":"結果呢別人肇事啊撞到他結果小孩受傷了你知道強車險賠不賠如果是因為他是受害人車子所肇事我的理解應該是有肇事人的車險賠但是我自己是車主我是駕駛我有頭保但是目前如果無肇事責任我們強車險對於車主本身的乘客是沒有賠的這本來就是我剛才講他是保障是以受害人為主不是以加害人"},{"start":9199.233,"end":9226.96,"text":"那麼受害人是我的乘客但是我不是肇事責任有肇事責任當然要賠但是這個人在我的車上我是車主結果他受傷了因為我沒有肇事責任我是停在路邊嘛被撞了嘛那這種情況要有沒有評估去考慮說這種情況要以檢討因為呢很多的保護啊他不了解啊他說我有保強車險啊啊結果呢我停在路邊被人家撞了啊啊我沒事啊但是呢我的乘客受傷了啊結果人家"},{"start":9227.62,"end":9251.983,"text":"保險公司說 對不起 你這個呢 乘客不保您知道這個情況嗎這個喔 情況其實我當然了解 這只是真的有時候比較複雜剛剛委員剛剛有提到說 沒有投保的人我們其實強車險有個特別補償基金來填補這個倒還好 不會有這個問題我想這個再請您 保險局去了解一下目前強車險是保受害人"},{"start":9252.523,"end":9276.879,"text":"對不對 它是一個損害天母的概念但是呢 我們對於兩輛車子的事故無照事責任的車主他投保的車險 保險公司是不對車上的乘客賠的但是如果駕駛 我受傷了是賠我但是我的乘客是不賠的這個部分是不是回去一下再思考一下可不可以增加無過失補償責任為基礎的新型車的保險商品"},{"start":9277.639,"end":9299.868,"text":"這部分的話我們當然隨時要檢討該委員的意見我們會帶回去請保局在我們在強車險或其他任意險的部分來加強對這個被保險人跟相關受害人的保障是的主委您說得很清楚這不見得是在強制險其他的任意險的商品也可以也就是說我們在銷售長車險的時候要明確的告知車主"},{"start":9300.808,"end":9319.381,"text":"如果是他沒有他的肇事責任但是他受損了他是有賠的但是乘客目前是不涵蓋的他如果有需要或者我們有開發其他的商品或者未來納入但是目前要讓被保險人知道那如果他覺得有需要幫他的乘客保無肇事責任的其他的險種"},{"start":9320.362,"end":9346.747,"text":"那麼就要請保險公司來進行說明好不好是 我想加強說明這個商品承保的範圍讓所有人知道比如說很多人都以為比如說我買的車子也包含乘客其實並沒有 對所以這個事件呢很多的不幸事故都提醒我們可以去檢討跟精進好 那最後這一題呢其實剛剛有委員問到了我們也是問 收到了很多的反應譬如說那個金管會銀行局財發的標準"},{"start":9348.167,"end":9369.636,"text":"那有人提到說是糾正糾正糾正糾正好那請問一下請問一下我們看到目前為止從2025年開始到這些那麼目前我們金管會或銀行局對於銀行的違規事項你們有什麼原則分別處置譬如說是內機內控自行呈報還是外部稽查查獲得有什麼差別是"},{"start":9370.436,"end":9399.283,"text":"跟委員報告也許從他事件一樣挪用客戶存款這件事情那但是他整個的過程當比如財閥但是我們很有可能比如說本來我們就過去一直強力要求金融機構建立三道防線三道防線就是他自己有偵查管控修正的能力如果是這個三道防線能夠合一的舉行而且他也做完這個接下來這個防範我們會看他的這個情況來給予就是可能只是個糾正"},{"start":9400.323,"end":9418.042,"text":"但是如果說穿透這個東西而且它是根本就渾然不覺我剛才跟委員報告過這時候我們就是要重罰比如這個東西因為這個完全不一樣的東西所以我剛才講過不管是誰當主委規定這都是銀行局的標準一向都是如此好 謝謝 因為主席站出來把他念完"},{"start":9418.502,"end":9435.271,"text":"自行發現調查跟主動呈報的與外部稽查或經檢查獲的兩者的裁罰流程跟進程是有差別的對不對最後的結論四點剛剛已經講過怪異說明請提出請提出請央行提出你認為主權基金最適合的基金來源管理機構請提出你們的看法"},{"start":9435.751,"end":9460.708,"text":"第二請財政部就房屋稅的這個相關異議剛才打火的部分也提供一個書面那第三呢請經管會就所謂的強車險的部分在於未來投保的告知或者未來可不可以增加相關的險種給予這個無肇事責任的車主及他的乘客有完整的保障以及最後你們對於精簡裁罰的這些相關的規定做一個書面報告可以嗎沒問題好謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝委員"},{"start":9461.448,"end":9466.794,"text":"好 謝謝各位的質詢我們按剛才宣布的就休息四分鐘 好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":10117.307,"end":10118.447,"text":"主席 二位出列席官員大家好 請央行央行是嚴副總裁好 謝謝 嚴副總你好最近"},{"start":10143.442,"end":10165.043,"text":"台幣的漲勢稍微緩和一點那面對未來有沒有可能因為彭總裁你比較熟吧彭海南你比較久了上次提到彭總裁有人說沒有彭海南防線究竟彭海南防線是值幾塊錢"},{"start":10167.349,"end":10194.587,"text":"那個 抱歉我因為我從那個過去彭總裁 彭堅總裁或楊總裁我們都沒有對外宣稱說有所謂什麼反線可是大家認同的彭萬年反線就是28.5啊對於美元啊其實台幣的匯率也有升過超過28.5的情況是 就短暫一下不過在彭總裁任內感覺還蠻穩定的那對於本席在"},{"start":10195.922,"end":10198.886,"text":"之前所提的主權基金啊"},{"start":10199.813,"end":10228.65,"text":"其實有兩個人提案一個是吳欣穎前立委吳委員以及本席共同提案當初就希望提出主權基金的概念來配合國內的重要的企業發展可以起一個到處帶著資金可以去跟技術結合的投資對於主權基金那"},{"start":10230.333,"end":10259.011,"text":"你覺得這個基金的size大概要多大?規模要多大?其實這還是要看整個國家主權基金我們政府希望它要多大的規模其實我很難在這邊跟國威主權基金多少?大概一兆多規模算是非常大的幾個?新加坡、淡馬錫等等全部大概都是一兆多以上"},{"start":10261.007,"end":10285.15,"text":"是吧那個委員我這邊沒有資料所以我沒辦法跟您直接報那央行對於當初我們是希望說從外匯存底裡面來提撥大概10%就是現在外匯存底是多少5828億左右對大概是500多億也是大概相當1.5兆左右那央行的態度是怎麼樣"},{"start":10286.653,"end":10312.746,"text":"我們在5月8號的總裁在這邊的報告已經很明確的點出我們對於主權基金裁員有三種方式我們上次已經提過就是財政部發債財政部撥款或者財政部出資這樣子的方式那央行在這個過程裡面可能在某一塊可以做一些適度的協助那央行要不要投資"},{"start":10314.369,"end":10320.632,"text":"這就是看整個政府對於這個基金的管理的設置好那我們請財政部莊部長一起一統還有金管會彭主委一起這個三位一起那剛提到央行它不出錢財政部要準備出多少錢"},{"start":10337.308,"end":10344.977,"text":"第一個,這個主權基金的規模要多大?那第二個就是他財務來源要多少?一兆多以上啊一兆多這麼大的規模是嗎?對好,那你這個錢準備從哪裡來?發債還是?第一個,我們的"},{"start":10355.538,"end":10357.379,"text":"所以現在財政部有沒有錢可以來投資基金就是國庫的錢"},{"start":10380.073,"end":10388.561,"text":"國庫的錢在我們的預算書上都非常清楚稅入、稅出、稅計、剩餘以及債務都呈現得很清楚所以講起來就是沒有錢是不是來我幫你找一條錢請那個彭主委"},{"start":10391.121,"end":10415.109,"text":"同學本席在這裡曾提過保險法第146條之事的提出如果在前年可以通過然後就遵照我們立法院通過的決議來做的話你知道現在所有的保險公司投資在美國的公司債以及美國公債加起來的總資產大概有多少超過20兆"},{"start":10417.214,"end":10446.44,"text":"20兆20兆的部分投資美元資產的大概有多少大概應該是九成以上都是美元資產所以大概18兆應該有這個數字主委你想想看如果大概在一年多前本席所提案的通過的話20兆就回來10兆但是那是屬於回來10兆的話最近的話因為台幣的升值大概減損的漲上大概10%左右事實上"},{"start":10448.018,"end":10475.957,"text":"主委一個動作我就幫所有的保險公司多賺了一兆啊而且你回來台灣當初如果回來台灣有很多很多大家都知道未來的世界就是AI的世界這是很重要的一個產業吧主委認不認同我想應該全世界大部分人都認同這個好那我再請那個關務署我把他的數據讓你參考一下"},{"start":10480.48,"end":10500.113,"text":"去年大概物流進進出出外銷的部分AI的部分佔的比例大概有多少消美國的部分消美國的部分 鮑偉你這個數字我必須要再查一下你要查一下 因為這個不可以不知道那黃仁勛你認不認識"},{"start":10504.007,"end":10526.206,"text":"報紙看過希望你可以跟他多聊聊你要來協助他為什麼黃仁勳他找了一共大概一百多個產業要組成一個聽台灣一個團隊其中包括國泰金控包括玉山金控都入列為什麼"},{"start":10530.697,"end":10554.204,"text":"因為他這個產業周邊大概比較重要的大概有45家一個數據你去查一下就知道去年進出在自由貿易港區出去的部分總共金額是三兆多AI相關的產業NVIDIA的那一棟就在遠雄自貿港區的那一棟大概就接近兩兆"},{"start":10556.516,"end":10571.822,"text":"所以希望署長你要把那些數字查出來來告訴提供這些重要的財經長官他們來做判斷是好 謝謝那接著請彭主委"},{"start":10574.482,"end":10588.005,"text":"黃主席他們的數字都會給你所以未來的發展台灣如何在國際上發光發亮掌控未來事實上除了技術之外就是後面的晶圓"},{"start":10589.482,"end":10608.068,"text":"你要投資啊那主委你贊不贊成剛剛本席所提的海外的這些資金你可以回來就是當我們成立主權基金的時候看什麼樣的方式他們也可以投入當然這個屬性上有所差別因為這是屬於保險業的資產"},{"start":10609.488,"end":10635.787,"text":"他必須要轉換成某一個工具才有辦法做投入比如剛剛委員提到假設政府是以舉債的方式如果他的條件合一的話我們可以鼓勵我們的保險業來投資這樣的一個這個也符合他們長期投資的債券是 主委你有沒有算過所有的保險公司在海外的部分現在所持有的美國公債以及美國公司債加起來你講個多少"},{"start":10636.067,"end":10637.489,"text":"如果台幣繼續升值,升值到27塊的時候,對這些保險公司會產生什麼樣的影響?"},{"start":10655.236,"end":10677.871,"text":"我想任何一個匯率的波動對於我們有這麼巨大在海外資產如果說沒有做相對應的避險當然對財報賬戶上是會有蠻大的波動我也上次講過假設我想很多媒體也揭露過就是我們現在大概是假設以六兆是沒有避險的話那相當於兩千億"},{"start":10679.612,"end":10692.335,"text":"兩千億美元的話大概就是一塊錢大概就是一千五百億到兩千億左右的影響數我想漲跌大概就是這樣一個幅度所以本席擔心的是因為這樣的狀況不斷的出現讓國內就受險公司的RBC每下預礦"},{"start":10698.317,"end":10718.209,"text":"現在低於300的有幾間我剛剛也跟委員報告過因為我們RBC的計算是以6月30號跟12月31號假如12月31號的我們最近那一期的話其實大概有一家是不符合RBC的比例接下來6月30號必須要到7月或8月才能算得出來"},{"start":10719.261,"end":10741.271,"text":"要嚴密監控啊當然我們每天都在監控該增資的有沒有要求他們要增資增資保險法有一定的規定不是說一到了不足兩百就增資它有一套非常非常周延的增資我們不能每次出了事情或者是下一個情況不好的時候仰賴保險安定基金保險安定基金現在有多少錢"},{"start":10743.924,"end":10770.681,"text":"當然安定基金不能只看那個啦他現在的基金大概400多億400多億1000出問題你都沒辦法解決啊我想他不是只靠這個他有其他財源就像比如說我們在過去的經驗裡面呢大家都比如說可以我們依法可以舉借這部分過去大概都是這麼做的好 那主委我們看到現在房地產的這個放貸啊有很多很多的這個情況比預期還糟"},{"start":10773.767,"end":10776.114,"text":"請問現在的這類房地產有違約的"},{"start":10777.796,"end":10801.693,"text":"比例有沒有增加剛剛我在那個報告的時候呢我們現在的房貸的違約只有0.07%0.07%連0.1%都不到那這個建商的部分是0.16%這個都是史上很低的很低的這個程度我想這個餘放比率呢還在非常低的請問什麼數字最近是不斷的竄升的"},{"start":10803.668,"end":10822.157,"text":"我想有媒體揭露那個絕對數字的部分因為當然我們的量體越大當然數字就會增加但是那個比率還是維持一樣而且在一個非常低的水準特別是我們的自用的房貸的部分請多注意一下這樣的情況最後一個問題金融風暴會不會再度來襲"},{"start":10829.703,"end":10852.72,"text":"這個我想就一個金融監理機關每天都要有這樣的一個預備這是我們的日常好 謝謝那個央行謝謝美國的殖利率30年期的公債漲到5%啦美元的地位不保央行有沒有調節我們的外匯存底美金的比例"},{"start":10854.38,"end":10874.391,"text":"我想那個長期以來我們會隨時去注意到國際的金融情勢我們會做適度的適度一直都有做適度的調整最近有調整嗎老實說我沒有資料但是我知道我們固定都會有看那個國外的經濟金融情勢變動做適度的調整多小心啦謝謝謝謝羅委員的質詢下面請李坤城委員質詢請"},{"start":10894.488,"end":10897.696,"text":"謝謝主席先請我們財政部莊部長"},{"start":10901.035,"end":10922.182,"text":"我們今天央行是副總裁嗎副總裁請副總裁好副總裁好總統在520有一個重要的宣示要設立主權基金這是大概是有史以來除了院長之外總統是第一個講的要設立主權基金所以方向已經非常明確了我記得我們上禮拜專報大家還在討論說"},{"start":10925.004,"end":10936.696,"text":"這個要不要設怎麼設那專法怎麼弄然後這個裁員從哪裡來那我先請教一下部長那總統已經有這個宣示了那你們有沒有一個節奏那接下來要怎麼做"},{"start":10939.66,"end":10963.06,"text":"有關這個主權基金後續的一個相關做法行政院會邀請相關部會來做討論跟演繹規劃主要是國發會嗎?這個部分當然包含國發會、央行以及財主單位等等那財政部要做的咧?這個部分要等在行政院召開會議的時候會再一起討論那所以總統宣誓之前你們都不知道說這個總統會講說510會講一個主權基金出來"},{"start":10966.643,"end":10993.399,"text":"我想這個部分可能我想我沒有參與過這個但是我想應該府院也許會有討論吧也許是這樣子好那副總裁呢這個過去這個主權基金也講了蠻久的那就從這個報章媒體上面來看就是說過去比較認為說有主力都是來自於央行那我想請問一下副總裁的看法"},{"start":10994.144,"end":11022.732,"text":"我剛才已經講過我們在央行長期以來從彭淺總裁到楊總裁我們對於主權基金我們一向都主張這種我們正面去思考但是唯一我們希望透過專法或設立專責的管理機關以及外匯存底不能夠直接撥用這樣幾個原則去思考也支持設立主權基金但是不要用到外匯"},{"start":11024.823,"end":11042.643,"text":"壓衡的態度就是這樣設立專法我想大家都沒有問題那我再請教一下部長好了因為這個主權基金就是要彰顯台灣的主權才叫做主權基金它跟國發基金不一樣國發基金它的投資大概就是台灣的產業一些新興的產業"},{"start":11045.006,"end":11054.202,"text":"那你認為說這個主權基金呢既然他是要彰顯台灣的主權那所以他投資的標的未來這個成立之後投資標的是不是就以國外的產業為主"},{"start":11055.947,"end":11074.739,"text":"我想這個部分都還要再做詳細的規劃跟討論那請教部長的意見啊第一個我們要先看設置的一個目的然後第二個就是說然後要選擇什麼樣的一個產業以及未來的機制要怎麼樣去建立我覺得這應該要整體來做考量的那我是說"},{"start":11076.438,"end":11089.403,"text":"這個其實總統他的裡面也是講很清楚啦就是說這個是要投資這個國外產業那尤其我們有提到說這次關稅我們有提到說我們要籌組一個台灣投資美國隊委員長這兩個是不是有關聯性會在討論的時候也許可以做一個詳細規劃部長講得非常的保守"},{"start":11098.858,"end":11106.791,"text":"那您認為呢 如果是主權基金成立 那投資產業大概以什麼方向為主"},{"start":11109.095,"end":11130.474,"text":"這個部分我覺得這個我還是想就是說這個主權基金成立以後它的整個機制的一個操作模式跟未來投資的一個規劃方向都必須要有一個專責的一個投資機構來做處理而不是說我們自己在這邊個人或者是這樣來表達這樣的一個意見是好沒關係那部長先請為好了我請教副總裁"},{"start":11133.262,"end":11139.269,"text":"這個這幾天沒提美國銀行他有提到說預測啦台幣有可能到年底的時候會升到28.8元"},{"start":11141.567,"end":11151.979,"text":"然後呢 因為他們認為說這個美元大概會長就是到年底這段期間大概會走弱所以台幣有可能會轉強所以有可能會再升值他預測年底會到28.8然後高盛也預測就是說如果這個"},{"start":11161.951,"end":11171.973,"text":"亞洲各國跟美國進行貿易協商的話將使亞洲的貨幣更難貶值然後他預測這個海幣跟海元會升值我請教一下這個副總裁的看法"},{"start":11173.363,"end":11201.93,"text":"報告委員我們長期以來我們觀察到就是各個投資銀行他有他自己的預測那我覺得我們只是參考而已那因為影響到匯率或者是國際美元走勢的因素太多了我覺得用這種很直覺式的去推測就28點那我不要講那一個數字出來好了我們講一個趨勢好了那您認為說這個到年底之前台幣的走向是深"},{"start":11203.01,"end":11220.781,"text":"還是貶那個報告委員因為我們長期以來我們都認為匯率我們尊重市場那央行只有在出現匯率不穩定或者是有這種操作的時候我們才會進場去維持匯率的相對穩定那所以你認為說前兩週台幣突然升值這麼多快兩塊錢那你認為這樣正常嗎因為"},{"start":11227.711,"end":11249.764,"text":"我想那是一個操作策略也是透過這樣子的一種方式來降低大家對生殖的預期一種這過去我們也有採取類似的操作策略過因為楊總裁有提到說這個央行在這個新興之火開始的時候沒有去撲滅然後後來造成這個新火燎原之事"},{"start":11250.444,"end":11278.586,"text":"那接下來我想請問一下那央行對於說如果這個美元有可能會傾向弱勢的貨幣台幣有可能相對轉強那央行相對的做法是怎麼樣我想美元弱勢或強勢它自己國內也有不同的看法所以我們在這種美元波動的時候不管它是弱勢強勢會影響到台幣匯率的時候我們的一個前提就是維持匯率的相對穩定"},{"start":11280.029,"end":11294.433,"text":"那目前呢?目前台幣的匯率有穩定嗎?目前我們認為早四月底五月初已經相對的穩定很多了好,謝謝副總裁那我再請教一下中部長好了來,部長請教一下那個房屋稅2.0新制是今年開始那個徵收嘛,是不是?"},{"start":11309.143,"end":11336.519,"text":"從去年7月1號開始實施今年是首度開徵2.0來做標準來課徵的那我們房屋稅的這個繳稅期限是到哪時候正常來說是到5月底那今年因為是第一次的開徵第一次開徵有發生一些狀況然後這個部分如果要更正稅單等等的話都可以延後就是說由稅均積增機關重新開單然後期限繳款期限往後延"},{"start":11337.199,"end":11352.385,"text":"那你們電奈是不是設在6月2號嗎6月2號是說本來你要在3月24號以前來申報自住的話你沒有在這個時間來申報就是說你要簽了戶籍然後申報自住你沒有在時間但是因為第一年實施這樣情況所以我們認為說把它延後到6月2號之前你來"},{"start":11356.467,"end":11376.795,"text":"辦理這樣的一個事情就可以用自住的稅率來課徵那6月2號沒有延啊那本來就是你們5月底就是要申報啦房屋稅本來就是要申報到5月底那只是因為遇到假日變成6月2號而已啦那個一個是繳納期限一個就是說你是自住的話你來就是說你簽了戶籍簽進去了然後你來告訴我們說我已經簽完戶籍了我要用自住的稅率來課徵我們本來是訂在3月24號"},{"start":11380.376,"end":11404.435,"text":"但是因為是今年第一年實施那些那我是說繳納期限繳納期限的話繳納期限正常是到五月底嘛對啊因為有假日就到六月二號啦對不對對對對因為有到假日就延到六月二號我的意思是說我們這個所得稅本來是到五月三十一號也是到六月二號啦然後因為這個關稅的問題我們延長到六月三十號嘛"},{"start":11405.407,"end":11417.498,"text":"對不對那我的意思是說那如果這樣子因為房屋稅2.0是新制啊那又這個新制的過程當中又遇到一些比如說雙北也出現這個問題有沒有這個機會也把這個房屋稅減到期限延到6月30號"},{"start":11418.956,"end":11442.14,"text":"委員報告所得稅跟訪問稅不一樣所得稅是我們來做申報不管盈利事業或者綜合所得稅的中所個人都是自己來申報所以當時因為關稅政策的關係為了避免相關的盈利事業他在這個短短一方面他要應應這個關稅的措施而去調整他相關的訂單等等造成在這個五月份有一點措手不及所以把"},{"start":11442.8,"end":11454.968,"text":"申報的期限延到六月底但是房屋稅這個部分是屬於抵測稅是由地方政府來開單來做課徵那如果你沒有問題的話你就去繳那如果發生稅單上有問題如果發生問題的話只要有任何反應的話重新開稅單那他的繳款期限就自然是往後延的那所以就沒有說一定是那個最後定來是六月二號的問題就對了"},{"start":11466.736,"end":11489.597,"text":"對但是6月2號這個繳款期限沒有問題的都還是沒有問題有問題的人他會自然延後嗎他就會往後延對對對這個部分我們也趕快會發函給地方政府請他務必要這樣做那其實依照現行規定就可以但我們請他們趕快這樣做也讓那個納稅一五人可以安心那所以說這樣子的話大概會延到多久勒延到多久就看他重新開單的一個時間"},{"start":11491.618,"end":11497.48,"text":"所以就不是說以新開單的日期為主就對了新開單期限會拉多久呢就是開單之後的一個月內"},{"start":11507.203,"end":11522.549,"text":"那我再請教一下這個工業出租人那其實政府也蠻鼓勵的啦那工業出租人他有一些匯率上的優稅房屋稅、地價稅還有這個綜合所的稅其實都有優惠那我請教一下"},{"start":11523.429,"end":11544.96,"text":"現在人人有一些因素造成公寓出租人要把房子變成有租金的人來租變成公寓出租人還是有兩點會有一些疑慮第一個土地增值稅的優惠沒有了第二個房地合一稅的免稅也沒有了我在想說為了要鼓勵公寓出租人的話"},{"start":11545.74,"end":11571.862,"text":"那產生部有沒有在這個土地增值稅的優惠跟房地合一稅的優惠有沒有比較這個更進一步的一個改善的一個做法這個部分第一個我們在地價稅跟房屋稅還有中手稅的部分對公益出租人有一些租稅的優惠最主要就是在持有稅的時候你在持有期間我們希望你把房子租出去然後同時讓成租人可以去申請租金補貼讓自己成為公益出租人"},{"start":11572.242,"end":11600.381,"text":"但是土地增值稅或房地合一稅最主要是在房地在買賣交易的時候你有所得的部分比如說以土地增值稅就有一個概念就是所謂漲價歸公嘛漲價歸公那這個部分那比如說你房地合一就是我們把它算起來以前房屋沒有所謂的要課交易要課所得稅所以把它計算這是交易的時候你有所得那才要課稅我想這兩個意義上基本上是不太一樣的這個會造成說有一些齁它"},{"start":11601.503,"end":11604.373,"text":"他有租人他可能也是工業出租人"},{"start":11605.157,"end":11630.847,"text":"但是他就怕說他未來沒有這一個土地增值稅或是說這一個房地合一稅的優惠他變成就是說他會跟他的房客講就是說雖然你是公益的出租人的房客但是為了我後來我如果要房子要買賣的時候我沒辦法享受到這些優惠然後就變成說他沒有去變成這個公益出租人去做申報"},{"start":11633.433,"end":11653.285,"text":"就是說他或許在這個工業這個出租人這一塊的優惠比如說房屋嗎地價或是說眾所隨他可能沒有拿到但是他萬一如果說房子有買賣的話他一比較下來發現說那我如果沒有去報這個工業出租人其實他可能這一個在這個稅率上面他其實會更優惠啊會造成這種情況啊那個"},{"start":11656.109,"end":11681.471,"text":"你的意思就是他可能就覺得說如果我現在房子出租了我將來在賣的時候我的稅就不會土增稅還有房地利稅會課得比較重所以你不要去報出租這個基本上我們認為就是說所謂的租屋黑市本來就是因為我們要查緝的你有出租你就該繳稅就要繳稅好那對於出租對於公益出租人來說他我們在他的持有期間已經給你稅負的一個優惠了這兩者我覺得應該當然就是說他持有的"},{"start":11683.453,"end":11696.527,"text":"他持有的這個房屋地價跟這個眾所稅有優惠了那我的意思是說如果在鼓勵這個公益出租人這個情況之下你們有考慮就是說這個土地增值稅跟房地合一稅這方面的這個稅率在給予優惠嗎"},{"start":11698.942,"end":11720.319,"text":"這個部分我想這個部分可能要審慎的研議因為兩者稅的一個目的是不太一樣要審慎研議也就是說因為房地合一稅事實上是有價差你有價差的才會有課徵反正這個會後我再請教你們好了是謝謝謝謝主席謝謝李坤臣委員這個題很好研議一下接著我們請嚴坤臣委員"},{"start":11732.6,"end":11736.427,"text":"謝謝主席各位列席官員大家好主席有請財政部莊部長請莊部長我們11點50開放用餐"},{"start":11744.008,"end":11766.641,"text":"委員好部長早上個禮拜諮詢你的時候有提到薪稅至上路一定要做好萬全的準備避免造成民眾的困擾但是房屋稅2.0薪至上路大出包許多民眾陸續接到金額暴增內容錯誤的稅單引發大規模的反彈以台北市為例"},{"start":11768.222,"end":11783.371,"text":"稅監處發出107萬件稅單當中就有5萬件這個物列非自助稅率導致稅額一增新北市也出現大量類似的情況那受影響件數也達到萬件以上"},{"start":11784.552,"end":11809.472,"text":"甚至有民眾表示說原來的稅額六千元卻暴增到兩萬這個增幅超過三倍雖然你們事後有開放補辦資助申報延長申報期限到六月二號但是我們強調說這不是技術性的錯誤是因為制度設計本身就有問題還有這些在系統推行前請問部長有沒有"},{"start":11811.083,"end":11838.42,"text":"確實的要求地方稅務機關完成整合還有模擬測試有嗎跟委員報告一定有的在這個新制實施新法修正以後我們多次的邀請地方政府來開會然後相關的系統設計也都是多次的測試跟驗證這是沒有問題那至於剛剛委員提到台北市的部分台北市這五萬多件主要就是說它有自住的房屋但是它也有停車位但是它把停車位呢"},{"start":11838.9,"end":11862.085,"text":"用非自住的稅率百分之二來課這是不合理的而主要的問題我們也去了解是因為內部的承辦同仁就台北市捐贈處的承辦同仁在家住上家住錯誤那台北市發現以後他也立即的去做更正而且通知所有的各個大學議員而且已經重新都開單了繳款期限也都往後延這台北市政府他自己本單獨的一個問題發生了那五萬多件"},{"start":11864.705,"end":11869.933,"text":"至於新北市的部分它是對於有單獨一個權狀的車位它不把它"},{"start":11871.248,"end":11894.096,"text":"隨同他的組件物用途來做使用那這個部分呢我們會發函給發函通函告訴他們就是應該要隨公共設施應該要隨同組件物雖然他有單獨的權狀都應該隨同組件物的用途來稅率來課徵那這個部分我們也都會再處理那事實上這是涉及到新北市政府他本身自己在認定的部分因為新北市政府在過去我們修這個2.0之前他們"},{"start":11897.317,"end":11923.923,"text":"才很晚才通過他們的房屋稅差別稅率所以他在實務執行上並沒有實務執行上碰到過這樣的一個情況所以這一次在他們那邊因為沒有曾經的一個經驗而發生在認定上的一個起義照你這麼講的話就是說這五萬多件再加上新北市的上萬件這些部分就好像都是個案都是因為地方政府的之前已經經過了很多的整合跟測試那還是會發生這麼多的問題啊"},{"start":11926.677,"end":11936.992,"text":"這個件數您說五萬多元、三萬多元它的問題是同樣發生的同樣的一個類型的問題我們對於這個發生的一個情況都有去了解它的一個太陽然後看看要怎麼樣方式來做解決"},{"start":11941.258,"end":11961.348,"text":"先要請教說後續這個是行政作業的疏失還是因為配套的問題造成這些民意跟錯誤雖然有補救跟延長申報未來財政部有什麼更具體的作為能夠讓有這樣子可以大家一個一致性這個繳的稅是國家的稅民眾繳的稅是國家的稅"},{"start":11963.889,"end":11984.593,"text":"這個是不允許發生的錯誤啊是不是謝謝委員的一個提示對於當然第一年發生這樣第一年的開增有些這些個別的狀況我們都會持續的收集然後及時的解決同時呢也會把它彙整起來未來會把它做一個很好的一個指引讓未來不要再發生相同的一個狀況謝謝委員的提醒謝謝部長請問主席有請金管會彭主委"},{"start":11996.943,"end":12013.549,"text":"委員好 主委好114年度金管會預算案在第二幕金融監理編列預算2367萬8千元那但是這個主要是用於這個金融機構風險控管推動防詐政策但是我們"},{"start":12015.267,"end":12033.906,"text":"我們國內的這個詐騙案件還是層出不窮這個手法不斷的更新成效並沒有呈現出相對應的改善所以台北市這個打詐羽毛板的數據來說光是上個月單月的財損金額就高達13億"},{"start":12037.201,"end":12044.955,"text":"2100萬左右 而且這只是台北市的統計數據如果推估到全國各縣市的總額不知道是幾倍以上"},{"start":12048.294,"end":12068.653,"text":"雖然金管會在系統建置跟KIC落實方面有投入資源但是人頭帳戶總數這些部分還是持續在增加到113年底全國銀行及信和社的警示帳戶就高達14.93萬戶那尤其單年新增 單一個年度新增超過3萬戶"},{"start":12070.094,"end":12087.086,"text":"那顯示出這個KYC作業可能存在的重大缺口我想請教主委那是否已經針對不同銀行的KYC執行品質可量化的一個評鑑訂定標準如何強化管理可不可以告訴我們一下好 謝謝委員"},{"start":12089.364,"end":12115.261,"text":"那個委員過去對這議題都一向非常非常的關心那確實在我們去年去年打炸應該是損失金額最高是11月的126億那到了今年2月大概到60億到3月70那最近有調高到4月大概76億在微幅的上漲確實還有待努力我想說從最高峰我想那個經過各部會的努力確實有一些"},{"start":12116.021,"end":12144.344,"text":"那個減少啦但是我們還要持續的努力但是就剛委員提到我們對那個警示帳戶的管制這是我們現在管理的重中之重我想我們現在啊自從我們3月開始要求他們現在所有金融機構就應該設立打詐主管讓我們有監控兩個指標這兩個指標我們按月監控然後這部分呢其實上我們在這部分也給銀行非常大的壓力這部分我們會來持續來做那個主委"},{"start":12145.58,"end":12160.149,"text":"警示帳戶這部分其實不是啦因為關鍵還是在源頭嘛對不對在開立帳戶的時候如果去落實辨識跟這些封控的程序啊那所以這個營運局在113年3月21號修正這個部分其實"},{"start":12167.557,"end":12191.384,"text":"我們不能讓金管會的這個打詐政策只是原有一個形式嗎當然不會 我們其實也一直在用不同的方法來做這件事如何嘛 如何能夠制止嘛 對不對你現在人頭戶那麼多我們現在用內外夾擊的方式第一個我們在外部跟各個單位來合作怎麼樣去辨識出警示帳戶的高風險群透過通報還有彼此的警示然後達到這樣二組當然剛才"},{"start":12192.984,"end":12214.202,"text":"那個委員提到就是我們做KYC落實KYC我想剛剛也有委員提到比如說我們對一些數位帳戶的開戶因為現在不法集團他很容易以冒名的方式來進行這個帳戶作為申請帳戶然後沒有經過這樣子的一個科技辨認那所以這樣子的話就變成"},{"start":12215.183,"end":12243.003,"text":"他在控管了這樣子的一個不當金流的一個帳戶的一個進出所以如何從這一端來把他制止掉這部分對 當然我們這部分因為其實詐團也是推陳出新我們的方法也要與時俱進但是就是要強力的控管啊好不好主委好 謝謝主委謝謝金管委員會不是 講錯了不好意思"},{"start":12245.37,"end":12246.671,"text":"銀行局同局長委員好局長這個"},{"start":12253.12,"end":12281.533,"text":"我們在113.3月21號修正高齡客戶自立規範第14條要求金管機構金融機構在向高齡者推銷這些金融商品的時候要錄音錄影存這個流存這個銷售過程以利未來做一個查證爭議的部分但是到今天為止還是自立規範對不對是自立規範嗎是沒有明確的強制性執行立法沒有嗎"},{"start":12282.133,"end":12306.69,"text":"但是跟委員報告,自律規範事實上等同於法律的一個部分所以我們也會列為相關包括內積內控的一個要求範圍之列對啊,你們怎樣管控?我們是以日常監理、實地查訪、金融檢查這樣的方式加強控管,是不是?報告委員是的,我們會從日常監理的要求那金融檢查的部分呢,這個部分也會列為我們加強金錢的一個重點"},{"start":12307.529,"end":12326.72,"text":"因為高齡者對高齡者銷售的金融產品種類繁多那尤其因為資訊接落的不對稱還有這些風險皆是不足那銷售過程當中是不是有一些誘導性的話術甚至於這些高齡者完全不知道"},{"start":12327.674,"end":12350.662,"text":"他為什麼要投保他所投為何所以這是正義的案例所以錄影錄音這個確實能夠有效的保障高齡者的權益那金管會是不是會針對錄影錄音進行事後如果有正義的時候對於這些錄影錄音進行語音分析或者是抽樣審核來落實來做這樣子的避免說表面落實但是實時侵犯的這種狀況"},{"start":12353.024,"end":12366.801,"text":"檢察局在實地精檢的時候呢針對這個錄音帶的部分都會進行相關的調閱跟聽閱然後從這個當中如果發現有不符合治理規範的規定的話都會提列精檢意見我們銀行局都會依法來處理"},{"start":12367.987,"end":12390.72,"text":"對啦 就是說要這些告認者是最不對稱的告認者被這個資訊最不對稱的一個族群所以說他們需要的是強制性可追溯 可問責的一個強制的保障制度好不好所以這個部分我們會持續來督促銀行要落實好 謝謝謝謝榮坤騰委員接著我們請黃珊珊委員"},{"start":12404.366,"end":12406.39,"text":"財政部長、央行副總裁"},{"start":12418.154,"end":12440.254,"text":"我也好部長好副總裁好我想昨天很重要的是520賴清德總統在就職的週年演說宣示台灣要成立所謂的主權基金打造國家級的投資平台在這邊我就不禁要說了部長還有副總裁台灣民眾黨的版本在去年3月就已經送到立法院"},{"start":12441.275,"end":12461.508,"text":"但是我們在這中間過程中包括立法院的專案報告跟央行給我們的回覆以及財政部的說明都說目前沒有必要突然間又突然有必要了是嗎所以部長我想問一下財政部有沒有接到行政院指示準備參與主權基金還有它成立的時程"},{"start":12463.468,"end":12489.918,"text":"這個部分呢 行政院後續應該會再召開所以你沒有參與前面的討論要同相關部會一起來做開會討論副總裁 我們的版本是在央行底下成立啦我知道總裁一直很不希望在央行來主管他說給錢沒問題啦 要你們管也有問題請問 原副總裁 央行有沒有參與總統有關主學基金成立的相關討論還有目前你們的時程是什麼"},{"start":12491.241,"end":12518.581,"text":"報告委員因為長期以來我們都會把我們對這一塊議題的報告送成你們的立場一直就是外匯存體可以借你們用但是我要收利息啦是吧我們的原則是不能夠無償使用不能無償使用就是你們可以拿出來第二個你們不願意當主管機關對吧對部長那中央有跟你討論過由財政部來扛下主責機關政策的大旗嗎"},{"start":12520.351,"end":12545.797,"text":"目前并没有做这样的讨论在主权基金全世界都是大部分至少我们知道最熟悉的新加坡是财政部主导接下去台湾会怎么样可能也是上一次央行有提出专案报告给财委会的书面报告有三种形式第一个反正财政部发债第二个部分是财政部拨款"},{"start":12548.291,"end":12563.86,"text":"像新加坡是財政部出資成為淡馬行的股東淡馬行投資再去取得國營企業的股權第三個是財政部出資設立那大部分的錢是來自於公部門所以這三個方法都是財政部財政部有沒有意見啊"},{"start":12566.209,"end":12592.207,"text":"跟委員報告各國的財政部的執掌內容並不相同這是一個那第二個對於有關財源來自於哪裡這是央行在報告裡面所以央行的報告也沒跟你討論只是講說財源來自哪裡好所以重點是我覺得主權基金是件好事這是上一屆吳欣穎委員代表台灣民眾黨在立法院不斷的"},{"start":12594.912,"end":12618.131,"text":"倡議而且正式的修法最重要的是我們在總統大選的時候也成為台灣民眾黨的政見那去年3月我們就已經提案在央行在財政部我們都希望能夠進行討論但是很遺憾行政院一直沒有理會直到昨天看到總統突然間冒出來今天再問到兩位好像你們也沒參與所以整個過程我認為啦"},{"start":12619.571,"end":12642.627,"text":"可能又變成是一個突發奇想或者是就像國軍軍人突然間要說恢復軍事審判到今天還是沒有任何下文我不希望它又是一個突然間曇花一現的構想我希望兩位對於台灣的主權基金應該現在就應該有進一步的想法甚至要積極的參與"},{"start":12644.628,"end":12672.507,"text":"對於立法院還有總統都已經這樣說的重要政策我們不應該像兩位現在的狀況什麼都不知道可以嗎你們可以告訴我在一個月之內可以給我一個初步的時程表嗎或者是簡單的說美國川普總統二月份簽署了一個行政命令說要成立美國主權基金三個月五月的時候白宮發言人已經表示財政部跟商務部已經擬定了設立計畫"},{"start":12675.549,"end":12694.947,"text":"只花三個月然後新加坡當時成立主權基金花了八個月我現在不知道我們的總統520宣布之後你們要花幾個月所以部長在我下一次在這邊質詢的時候可能我就會問你相關的時程啦你現在都不知道嘛還不知道"},{"start":12696.448,"end":12719.87,"text":"跟委員說明了這個部分行政院會要跟國發會央行以及各財主單位一起來做研議規劃好 副總裁剛剛講的卓文泰院長在日前接受專訪的時候也說了他說到底誰來出資啊有心有所屬對方不一定滿意會再慢慢協調所以這個對方是不是指央行"},{"start":12722.509,"end":12734.074,"text":"報告委員 我不知道他的行義是怎樣他心有所屬 劣跡啦但是你好像不滿意啦 所以他要再跟你慢慢協調啦所以院長有來跟你們商量了嗎 還沒"},{"start":12735.928,"end":12751.785,"text":"報告委員我剛才講過我們長期以來我們對這個議題我們都有提供我們的長端去參考好 接下去的問題其實今天財政部在這邊我要強調的是不管主權基金它的目的是什麼都要益處重要的財源對吧"},{"start":12754.159,"end":12782.139,"text":"這個方向應該沒有錯吧當然財源來自於哪裡是可以討論的所以像在新加坡的主權基金它的收入2025年新加坡的財政總收入是1499億新幣但是就有271億來自國家儲備的投資回報也就是相關的主權基金也就是政府的稅收來源裡面每五塊錢就有一塊錢是來自於主權基金這其實是一個穩健的財源"},{"start":12783.2,"end":12802.773,"text":"第二個 他的對GDP的貢獻也非常的高加上新加坡政府在他們國內有足夠的財源至少在剛剛講的居住正義上面有相當多的資源可以做公共住宅 社會住宅最重要的是94%他都可以"},{"start":12803.653,"end":12827.783,"text":"建設所謂的社會住宅出租給民眾讓民眾不會有房屋的問題所以我們希望的是財源進來之後要怎麼用這才是重點增加了錢很好但錢像現在國發基金也有其他也有台商公司也有但它沒有辦法完整的挹注到政府的財源的話其實都是白搭"},{"start":12828.763,"end":12855.559,"text":"主權基金不應該是那個樣子國發基金是要去扶植我們國內的企業但主權基金是要幫政府增加財源所以這個部分包括央行當時我有回報是說央行不需要啊央行外匯存體都有委託操作啊所以央行的獲益很穩定但是央行的獲益副總裁你們每年大概的利息收到多少你們委外操作賺到的錢有多少"},{"start":12859.932,"end":12880.872,"text":"每年投資報酬率高不高介於2.2到3之間所以您滿意嗎您覺得滿意嗎因為那個國外操作收益率3.53最高自行經營的收益率大概最高2.66這在跟主權基金比起來你覺得你們這樣子的操作"},{"start":12882.349,"end":12902.269,"text":"那個報委這兩個性質是不一樣的所以主權基金操作應該要更好是但是就是不是央行來做我覺得這個國家就是希望這個政策下來各單位應該是有志一同大家一起努力如果這個方向還是你做你的我做我的就不會做好了"},{"start":12902.529,"end":12931.915,"text":"那個報告委員我們一直主張有一個專責機構來負責這個操作是所以就是大家要去找出一個共同性嘛不應該還是這樣你推我我推你最後就是在去年我們超徵的時候其實我在這裡也有跟部長說過超徵之後的錢要怎麼用大家都有想法我們主張有兩個第一個該還債有閒第二個其實每年超徵三四千億真的可以成立土權基金啊"},{"start":12932.952,"end":12948.959,"text":"成立主權基金再去賺更多的錢而不是平白無故的不管是用到哪裡去把它花光光今年大家在審特別條例感覺就是要把稅基剩餘還有去年的超徵金額全部用完我覺得不是好事"},{"start":12949.739,"end":12972.244,"text":"主權基金是將來超徵的財源之一而且它應該長期穩定每一年政府施政經濟的成果應該是全民共享而不是單純的發錢或者是去做其他的東西而是應該拿來在益助政府可以賺更多的錢來做更多的建設 對吧"},{"start":12973.812,"end":12995.062,"text":"所以兩位今天我希望昨天聽完很興奮今天看到你們兩位的回答我又很沮喪所以我希望主權基金應該有個具體的時程我希望一個月之內有一個大概有的方向否則我們在這邊又是恐歡喜一場部長你可以做到一個月之內告訴我你們規劃或者是跟央行之間協調的過程嗎"},{"start":12997.472,"end":13023.426,"text":"委員這個部分行政院會要從相關部會來會商是但是兩位如果我們在財政委員會坐在站在這裡還得到這樣的答案我覺得是蠻一笑大方的為什麼因為總統昨天講話今天兩位最重要的官員完全不知道立法委員也問不到東西這不是一個民主國家該有的方式啦"},{"start":13024.617,"end":13046.203,"text":"變成總統也是黑箱然後到立法院來沒有人可以回答我們的問題這不是一個好懂得溝通的政府或者是你們行政事務官有積極參與決策的政府這樣的狀況會讓人民沒有信心好嗎我希望一個月之內我會再問兩位最後就是"},{"start":13048.203,"end":13071.073,"text":"我們還是希望啦 主權基金有三個原則第一個 一定要有專業的經營團隊第二個 要有明確的投資策略 還有風險控管第三個 要有明確的法源依據 還有公開透明就是我們希望兩位在將來行政院討論有關主權基金的時候這幾個原則一定要納入所有相關的內容 可以嗎您的意見會納入好 謝謝"},{"start":13075.543,"end":13080.085,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員的質詢 下一位請陳玉珍委員質詢請謝謝主席 也請財政部莊部長還有負稅署財政部莊部長 負稅署署長"},{"start":13095.571,"end":13122.371,"text":"部長 這個房屋稅2.0改革的重點是目的是要加重持有多戶且為做有效利用的房屋稅負擔合理化這個房屋稅的稅負那現在執行的手段來講是用自住有商戶要無出租沒有出租或供營業使用然後所有人或所有人或使用權本人配偶或直系親屬實際居住"},{"start":13124.418,"end":13138.342,"text":"使用且這個下面這點 於該屋半郡戶籍登記本能配合未成年子女全國合計三戶以內這個自住的這個稅率是這樣子要1.2%的話那這個是問題我上次就已經在這邊諮詢過了但是我們還是還沒有得到答案因為這個"},{"start":13143.803,"end":13161.963,"text":"要辦戶籍登記這一件事情對我們金門地區的民眾影響很大那金門地區很多民眾戶口是在金門但是事實上是工作工作跟居住事實上是住在台灣比如台北、高雄各地啦 台灣各地那住在金門的話"},{"start":13162.944,"end":13177.735,"text":"是自由的房子除了台灣的也是自由的房子實際上也有居住那如果按照你們的規定一定要辦戶籍登記就是他的戶口必須從金門遷到台灣金門現在戶口大概有14萬人嘛但實際居住大概只有5、6萬人所以有"},{"start":13179.577,"end":13196.438,"text":"幾乎一半的人戶口都是在台灣那這樣的話因為如果他們把戶口遷過來台灣會造成他們很大的權力的影響比如說最基本的要回家的時候 機票就差很多錢我們機票大概有六折左右就來回一趟"},{"start":13197.199,"end":13223.322,"text":"返鄉的時候就是五千塊跟兩千塊的兩千多塊的差異還有當然我們金門地區還有一些自己金門地區因為涉及產生一些金酒相關的一些福利配酒交互配酒或各式各樣金門地區金門縣政府自己所做的福利還有很多其他的那這樣他們明明就是自助實務上真的是自助那但是卻沒有辦法享受到這個自助的稅率"},{"start":13223.982,"end":13249.687,"text":"因為你們要求一定要簽戶口那在金門幾乎基本上是所有的金門人都遇到因為家家戶戶都有人住在台灣都有通常住在家裡的都是父母 長輩然後我們這個年紀或者50歲40 30 20 30多歲都住在台灣住在金門就是老跟幼嘛中間這個階層他們都住在台灣好 那這樣或者夫妻有時候"},{"start":13251.187,"end":13279.63,"text":"就是戶籍嘛所以這個問題在金門影響很大那這個有沒有什麼方法就是說我們提一個建議啦資助商戶內是不是用我們修法用竊竊還是什麼方式那如果竊竊我也支持有罰則如果確實沒有住在那裡那當然也可以跟他重罰甚至用偽造什麼各方面的重罰我們也都會支持因為的確實行上好多人就住在台灣但是他的戶口是在金門那台灣的房子的確是資助的"},{"start":13280.49,"end":13304.155,"text":"這個怎麼處理呢房屋稅自住用戶籍登記其實是回歸到跟地價稅一致的地價稅你要用自用的稅率的話也是要做戶籍登記的要做完成戶籍登記所以並不是房屋稅開這個首例那第二個部分你常時居住在這個地方你的戶籍就在這邊這個我覺得這是一個法規上一個一定的一個這樣的一個處理"},{"start":13304.955,"end":13316.982,"text":"但是個別因為各縣市因為有相關的不同的福利的一些措施而造成戶籍上它實際上涉及在那邊人又不住在那邊我覺得這個部分可能他自己就要去做一個看怎麼樣一個權衡因為地價稅也是用戶籍來"},{"start":13320.824,"end":13339.633,"text":"為什麼地價稅從來沒有人反映那但房屋稅就是自從你們這樣實施以後房屋稅反映基本上如果說是小眾的問題就一戶兩戶當然一個兩個我們當然覺得這個法律這樣不適合那因為這在金門是全金門人的問題每一家每一戶都有每一家每一戶都有這個情形而且大家都因為"},{"start":13340.473,"end":13361.309,"text":"即便你是在台灣工作 你也常常要回家看父母可能一個月要回去一趟 這個很正常啦就是離家工作 但是在台灣也是有買房子住在台灣島嘛但是你還是要回家 那如果戶口遷到了台灣過來 進到台北來那它就會喪失很多 比如說光飛機票一年就要增加很多費用那這個我們不像坐火車啊 也可以坐什麼開車啊 Bus啊 這種"},{"start":13363.991,"end":13390.683,"text":"就是這個是離島地區就說遇到這樣的情形是很不得已的那如果法律是修一個法這個法律是讓全部的百姓每一戶都有這樣的情形因為我們知道澄清案實在是太多家戶都有雖然我們家也有但我不是說我們自己比較不重要家家戶戶都有啊沒有一戶沒有的那這個事情如果沒有辦法解決事實上會造成很大的民怨啊所以我想問有沒有什麼變通的方式但我們也是支持說如果沒有實際居住你是可以重罰他"},{"start":13391.623,"end":13418.116,"text":"如果用切結的方式來修改的話這可不可行啊可不可以朝這個方向去努力看看署長你看有沒有什麼好方法報告委員因為我們現在房屋稅是屬於地方稅那像委員剛剛講的這種例子是說他是住在台灣那照理說如果照戶籍法的規定他是應該把戶籍就是要設在台灣譬如說在台南好了"},{"start":13418.576,"end":13438.878,"text":"那台南那部分的戶籍所在地當然台南市政府就願意給他自住的優惠稅率因為他究竟是地方稅可是現在變成是說又希望兼顧民眾的權利不用涉及其他欠給的自住他就願意給他優惠稅率他們用房屋稅的目的是希望民眾不要炒房吧"},{"start":13439.618,"end":13459.849,"text":"金門人因為住在離島不得已啊也只好這邊住那邊住啊那也是要來回啊常常就要來回像我也要常常來回那我戶口當然是在金門但是很多戶口是在台灣在金門我們在講在訂定這個制度的時候那時候為什麼好沒關係你說這地方我知道這地方所以那如果我們地方政府的話如果"},{"start":13460.749,"end":13474.903,"text":"我們就用切結代替這個登記或是說我們整個多一個法源讓我們地方政府可以自己決定因為稅是地方在收的嘛我們金門地方有沒有辦法如果金門地方政府訂的這個比如說自治條例啊這一類的有沒有辦法讓我們金門可以解決這樣問題"},{"start":13476.737,"end":13484.421,"text":"這個部分是因為中央法規定而且現在是全國歸戶在計算戶數的所以它這個不是一致而且也跟委員報告這個地價稅就已經是這樣你不能說地價稅自住可能地價稅從長久以來都這樣徵收從地價稅叫做自住但是房屋稅的反應太多"},{"start":13497.128,"end":13515.989,"text":"因為房屋一定是坐落在土地上好沒關係你們想一下還有沒有什麼方法因為我剛剛說的是提供一個思考說切結啊是不是那我說如果它是不實切真的沒出來你可以重罰我也可以接受用刑罰我也可以接受這個你們思考看看想看看第二個要請那個公務署公務署"},{"start":13521.488,"end":13530.291,"text":"去年我本期有諮詢就是我剛剛提到地區進口商品免徵關稅的部分民國89年是164項 99年是320項後來統計110年到112年的時候試用的只有一項110年一項 110年八項 110年15項佔這個比例0.3% 0.3% 2.5% 跟4.6%"},{"start":13545.697,"end":13551.084,"text":"我們再看實際上進口的報單數據來講以金門地區來講免稅進口的項目大概就是最多的當然是一些入居用軟食碎食等等"},{"start":13561.87,"end":13583.442,"text":"都是是這個但是完稅進口最多的也是這樣都一樣都一樣那看來所以呢你們給我這是我上次就問過你你又給我們報告你說基本營業人大部分基本地區人當然都以完稅進口在銷售到需求市場較少採用免稅進口於當地銷售嘛大家有免稅的優惠"},{"start":13586.415,"end":13605.893,"text":"卻不去做免稅的行為而寧願做完稅的行為你有沒有想過是為什麼包委你了解嗎一個東西它可以免稅進口但民眾寧願完稅進口還要交稅我想這是商業上的一個需求吧為什麼你站在關稅的角度你覺得可以讓你免稅你卻寧願那個"},{"start":13609.716,"end":13629.226,"text":"卻寧願完稅可是這個免稅一定是對營業人比較不利如果有利商人一定選擇有利的方式趨吉避凶他卻選擇了完稅但是你那時候給我的答案是說你們說所以金門地區你列的那320項應該是符合需求這個答案很跳躍"},{"start":13631.239,"end":13645.879,"text":"明明就是這個政策應該是有什麼問題應該去探究說到底是什麼問題但是你們去告訴說那所以我們政策很好百姓沒有這個需求應該去想說如果今天有一個機會您可以有免稅的東西可以買你為什麼要去買完稅"},{"start":13647.233,"end":13671.102,"text":"根委員報告 金門縣政府如果說居民有這樣的一個實際上的一個需求他要進口免稅的物品 免關稅的物品然後供這個離島居民來使用的話是可以提出這個項目跟我們沒有這些項目已經有在裡頭我現在就講這個項目就有為什麼百姓寧願要完稅百姓為什麼寧願要完稅而不要免稅你有沒有想過"},{"start":13672.162,"end":13693.132,"text":"那可能有可能就是那個離島的居民他可能沒有辦法就是說這些物品320項的物品其實已經夠了但是怎麼會比較夠呢你看那320項幾乎都沒有用到啊都一項兩項而已啊表示這個政策上是不是在某些方面的實施是在後端還是哪裡有一些不符合"},{"start":13694.733,"end":13717.584,"text":"這當然我們會繼續探討 但如果說金門縣政府這邊檢討之後 都認為說有什麼治安還是什麼地方所以我們還是 中央政府做中央政府的事 地上政府我也會跟他們要求 但中央政府不是我們在監督的單位嘛所以我請您 包括那個複稅署 所以請你們一個月把我們金門地區的房屋稅有沒有什麼想好的解決方法"},{"start":13718.644,"end":13734.338,"text":"官務署這邊關於金門天音樂人進口免稅關稅這個商品項目還是在提一下檢討報告研究要新增免稅項目的一些建議實際讓你們官務署人在金門去了解一下情形也才知道說你們課的這些東西是不是合理為什麼會有這樣的情形"},{"start":13734.938,"end":13761.468,"text":"再二要的跟委員報告一下我們一直有跟金門縣政府談說如果你那個金門的居民有什麼需要的貨品可以跟我們提議來建議然後我們會邀請相關的機關來討論是不是來增加這些項目是好我們也會跟他們說我想金門縣政府比較了解居民的一個需要對那你們也要去了解一下身為中央單位也必須要了解一下到底老百姓的需求是什麼好嗎都一個月內可以嗎好可以好謝謝"},{"start":13763.229,"end":13768.933,"text":"好謝謝委員好謝謝陳委員的資訊下一位請林思明委員資訊請好謝謝主席我們請財政部莊部長"},{"start":13786.513,"end":13807.084,"text":"部長好部長我想今年是我們同房稅2.0上路後首年的申報那針對自住房屋的新增稅及條款財政部也放寬規定6月2號前都可以申請涉及來補漏洞但是我們看到各地方政府啊即發稅單後"},{"start":13809.826,"end":13821.855,"text":"卻讓我們看到引發的整個房屋稅之亂有民眾發現自住的房屋被認定為非自住稅率直接從1.2%暴增到2.6%導致我們許多的民眾炸鍋有暴增到2.6%的"},{"start":13830.546,"end":13850.467,"text":"那要求地方稅務局要重算 而且要更新稅單那麼對於為何會有這種情況發生的原因部長您在5月15日的回應是認為因為今年首度開增會發生我們地方政府錯誤認定的一個情況"},{"start":13853.25,"end":13869.806,"text":"財政部未來會持續的收集各方的意見並以整體徵收完成後來重新的做檢討至於已經收到稅單的民眾台北市已經重新開稅單就可以拿新的稅單來延後繳納"},{"start":13873.495,"end":13892.712,"text":"當日也有委員問到說這是全國都有的問題不是說只有新北的問題不應該不一致所以是不是所有的地方政府都會遇到民眾來申訴的時候會重新開稅單民眾會有疑問"},{"start":13894.353,"end":13920.521,"text":"而且預期繳納又有滯納金的一個問題部長您當時的回覆是講說你會喊請各縣市政府把這個整個內容跟各縣市政府你會發文請縣市政府要重視這個問題會跟各縣市政府來講清楚那我第一個問題想請教部長的就是說這一個文已經發給各縣市政府了嗎"},{"start":13921.94,"end":13925.603,"text":"這個禮拜就會發也就是說對於新北市政府在認定上的起義這個部分我們這個禮拜這週一定會發出去剛剛委員所提到就是說當然房屋稅今年開增新制以後"},{"start":13937.214,"end":13941.619,"text":"的一些現象譬如台北市的狀況他也及時處理因為加速資料的一個問題那新北在認定上因為他過去也沒有實施過縣市歸戶所以今年這一次的歸戶造成他那個車位有公共設施有單獨權狀的部分他把它當作非住宅來適用所以這個部分我們也趕快會做處理這個禮拜就會做處理"},{"start":13960.418,"end":13983.715,"text":"另外還有委員提到有關稅率2.6這個部分我們必須要說明在房屋稅2.0這個制度裡面就有含有就是說如果你持有多戶而又沒有做有效運用的話那這個部分稅率是會增加而且是全國歸戶這個是當時在立法的時候就有這樣的一個制度設計最主要就是第一個就是對持有多戶者持有稅的率"},{"start":13984.675,"end":14000.563,"text":"過低所以才這一次在我們2.0的稅制改革上裡面做了這樣的調整那至於有關資料的問題或是認定歧義的問題我們都會一直努力來做處理只要發現我們就做一致性的處理我想這個部分謝謝委員的提示謝謝"},{"start":14001.643,"end":14017.391,"text":"我想部長你剛才提到這個是囤房稅的修訂當然這個我們都了解但是我們也看到說政府制定這個政策其實牽涉法而動全身就是說這個涉及條款"},{"start":14018.371,"end":14038.682,"text":"它是否影響到說民眾的任意遷徙基本的權利就憲法上我們有遷徙自由的權利因為為了要適用房屋自住稅率符合法定要件就要涉戶籍這件事情真的已經是搞得妻離子散了"},{"start":14039.622,"end":14056.842,"text":"夫妻,就是夫妻子女為了要設計,為了要在這個他購得的房子裡面去設計妻離子善有這樣的一個問題所以真的要這樣搞嗎?我希望財政部還是要做滾動式的檢討"},{"start":14059.485,"end":14078.097,"text":"因為這個稅例實施的時候如果是為了打房同房稅的問題那整個我們這個政策推動之後有整個影響到我們整個房市的這個有抑制房市的一個上漲嗎這個可能你們也要去考慮一下"},{"start":14079.301,"end":14101.967,"text":"房市的上漲的問題因素很多包含資金的充沛的問題以及民眾預期的心理等等有諸多因素那在這個部分我們是就稅的部分因為有各種方式那其中這一個就是讓房屋就是降低這個囤房的一個基礎所以我說是不是有達到真的遏止囤房這樣子一個政策的一個目標"},{"start":14103.227,"end":14118.143,"text":"讓持有多戶你要去考量因為會我剛才提到的這個似乎會遷移反而動全身嘛會造成很多的民眾為了達到自助稅率然後他們就是去涉戶籍的一個問題嘛OK"},{"start":14121.088,"end":14149.564,"text":"謝謝委員長另外我也想很多民眾疑惑一個問題就是說民眾為了讓孩子就學的問題會將孩子的護護籍寄放在這個學區的親友家裡面但是房屋稅2.0的薪資剩入借親友來涉及的情況他可能會被認定有住任關係導致他的自住房被認定為非自住就是因為他把他的房子借親友來涉及"},{"start":14150.484,"end":14169.038,"text":"他的稅率就會升高所以這種非實質的租賃關係只是供親友來寄放戶籍如何申報才不會影響到他的一個房屋的一個稅率這個部長可不可以跟民眾來這個示意一下要如何申報不能涉及到積增食物是不是請副稅屬長來回應"},{"start":14176.038,"end":14197.113,"text":"跟委員報告如果今天只是建家設戶籍他並沒有實際有租用契約沒有所謂的實際收租金他竊竊說他確實沒有這種事實我們還是會當作沒有就算他還是自主這樣所以他只要像我們的各地的各縣市的國稅那個稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅"},{"start":14198.354,"end":14203.865,"text":"來去填寫事實上沒有無人租賃關係的一個簽結書就可以了 謝謝"},{"start":14211.482,"end":14227.807,"text":"那我想剩餘一點點時間我繼續來問部長昨天賴總統在520的周年談話中提到現在是成立主權基金非常理想的時刻並提到要將這主權基金連結AI時代的一個主要目標市場"},{"start":14232.268,"end":14252.197,"text":"是不是意味著主權基金的成立已經不是我們現在不是紙上彈兵喔政府現在的是一定要做是勢在必行是不是這樣跟委員報告有關主權基金設置這個部分行政院會邀同國發會央行以及財主單位等一起會來研議規劃討論"},{"start":14255.011,"end":14277.349,"text":"不是在紙上糖冰我現在問你是不是一定就會在今年就會有一個初步的一個規劃的一個結果就會出來也就剛剛跟委員說明行政院會邀同相關部會一起來做討論跟研議規劃所以今年一定就會做嗎這個時程上我可能沒有辦法跟委員做具體的說明是我想其實部長主權基金"},{"start":14279.351,"end":14303.205,"text":"剛剛我們很多人也提到就是說他這個要成立涉及到就是要定專法還有專責機構還有第三方的一個監督機構基金的裁員這幾個因素都要把它考量進去但是我們看到昨天總統宣布說要成立這個AI的主權基金所以這是不是跟目前我們在談判的對等關稅的問題有關"},{"start":14306.414,"end":14309.221,"text":"我一直強調說要成立AI主權基金啊"},{"start":14311.947,"end":14335.938,"text":"對等關稅的談判目前都是由行政院的正副院長在領導相關的團隊OTN他們在做研討是不是 你是部長對這個相關的意見他也是問你啊所以為什麼要特別強調成立了AI主權基金就是好像這個主權基金未來就是要投資AI產業"},{"start":14339.451,"end":14344.033,"text":"總統的意思是不是這樣都沒有遵循過你就直接拋出這樣一個說法這個部分我覺得這個後續應該會再來做討論來看怎麼樣的一個定定是"},{"start":14351.656,"end":14377.391,"text":"其實我們想說各國的政府的主權基金他投資的項目當然他要投資用主權基金投資要對他自己獲益要有獲利的對他的投資的國家的利益是有關的一定是要讓他的基金投資出去之後對他的國家利益是非常重要的而且要有很好的一個收益"},{"start":14378.492,"end":14384.389,"text":"所以我們台積電似乎以我們國家的台積電好像很多國外的主權基金也有投資"},{"start":14386.885,"end":14406.693,"text":"當然主權基金的設置第一個就是要創造財富為國家增加財源所以如同剛剛委員講未來第一個我們的投資的項目還有有關它的規模以及它如何的監管這都需要設置專法未來再做一個周延的規劃然後落入專法裡面"},{"start":14410.535,"end":14425.885,"text":"那民眾也可以完全了解所以我們就是未來也不限於只投資AI產業而已這當然相關的只要是跟我們認為說這個投資報酬率會很高而且也符合我們的國家利益我們就會去投資嘛"},{"start":14426.725,"end":14442.29,"text":"我想這個部分未來在投資項目的部分因為我剛剛為什麼要問你說是不是跟對等談判有關我們知道台積電現在要到美國投資是不是未來我們如果成立主權基金我們也會投資在美國成立的台積電這部分我不知道有沒有討論到這個部分是謝謝"},{"start":14453.064,"end":14457.669,"text":"好 謝謝李世民委員的質詢 下一位 王世堅委員請謝謝主席 我請莊部長來 莊部長請"},{"start":14480.366,"end":14502.372,"text":"總部長我今天跟你談另外一個問題這九大公園卡庫董事長總經理都是你這邊所指派的我相信你也一定經過相當的了解調查熟視才會指派他們這個前幾天啊一營宜蘭分行"},{"start":14503.786,"end":14530.584,"text":"被當地刑警大隊進去搜查那有帶走他們的婦女還有四個行員所以他們因為他們涉及跟詐騙集團有勾結那總共光已經查到的案子有三十幾個受害人三個詐騙集團在那邊開了這個戶頭那我覺得很奇怪在先前啊"},{"start":14532.486,"end":14555.129,"text":"這三個公司的名下的戶頭都已經是警示戶為什麼這麼好的第一銀行竟然還給警示戶繼續開戶這不是很奇怪照說警示戶不但不能給他開戶而且要通報警方"},{"start":14556.403,"end":14579.508,"text":"所以我想了解的是這件事情你有沒有要求第一銀行針對這些開戶的流程去做一些是不是這些有疏失然後我才想了解第一銀行的情況我認為監督管理考核在第一銀行都出了問題竟然啊"},{"start":14580.834,"end":14600.503,"text":"竟然上個禮拜 上三個月 今年三月 更大的台灣銀行台灣銀行竟然有兩個分行 都是副理局還有行員涉入"},{"start":14601.618,"end":14622.156,"text":"都在台北 松山分行 仁愛分行這件事我想你應該知道涉及的金額高達2200萬而被逮獲的中間人他竟然就暗示說到這些行去開戶啊可以有回扣那"},{"start":14625.148,"end":14646.359,"text":"台銀這個涉及的金額更可怕他匯出匯出國外的金額竟然高達一億多元而裡面有一千萬啊竟然是匯到第一銀行剛才我講的上禮拜出事的這個行的同一個詐騙戶頭天啊天啊"},{"start":14649.636,"end":14650.838,"text":"會到同一個公司帳號詐騙戶的這個警視戶所以我覺得這實在是很荒唐啦很荒唐齁那麼"},{"start":14664.446,"end":14690.761,"text":"那個部長你先說這個你瞭解不瞭解這件事有關台銀這個事情瞭解然後剛剛2200萬已經金管會是重罰那對於相關內部的人員包含這兩個行員這兩個行員其實是夫妻關係我在跟金管會談之前我為什麼先找你談因為這九大公營行庫董事長總經理都是你派的義營董事長總經理有來嗎有請起立一下好不好"},{"start":14693.018,"end":14706.289,"text":"那個 你們是模範銀行欸天啊 在我心目中啊我從來沒看到非常高你是模範銀行我們儘管那還特別把ESG這麼重大的這個業務交由你們來推動欸台灣銀行有來嗎 董事長 總經理你們是龍頭銀行欸"},{"start":14721.337,"end":14740.364,"text":"一個龍頭鷹狼 一個模範鷹狼你們竟然出這樣子的事情好了這個照說啊要追究 要檢討警事戶的開戶流程要追查他們有沒有疏忽或者不法這個責任應該由總行由總行來專責監理單位結果到現在為止"},{"start":14750.188,"end":14759.382,"text":"我們整個公營銀行 公營行庫 九大公營行庫只有兆豐銀行啦它是有總行人家它設一個專責監理單位"},{"start":14761.519,"end":14781.705,"text":"所以那個部長是不是就這個你要要求九大公營航庫在總航要設置監理單位監理各分航針對針對這些警事戶的開戶流程做檢討查一查他們是不是有疏忽擅自不法可不可以我覺得應該是這樣做是"},{"start":14785.165,"end":14810.154,"text":"你知道那個台英董事長總經理我為什麼讓你站起來你知道你們先前啊你們先前答覆我你們回覆各單位你們都還跟這個治安單位說你們啊每半年你們就會執行員工違常狀況的清查你們說藉由觀察啦喔你們超厲害的耶"},{"start":14811.534,"end":14825.186,"text":"你們算命嗎 你觀察 查研觀測就可以看到是這樣嗎都不用看他們開戶的流程 你觀察這些航員的外觀神色就可以知道是這樣嗎都不用看看他們經手的資料嗎他們該監管的開戶流程嗎"},{"start":14836.069,"end":14842.154,"text":"好啦 你們四位都是金融的長輩份喔我不為難你們 請坐請坐所以部長 我要跟你提的就是現在我們九大公營行庫應該來做模範的時候這一次打詐司法通過以後反而在做模範的都是民營銀行"},{"start":14862.748,"end":14891.584,"text":"那一家我最常說他的就屬僚三兄弟的大哥他背後的老闆這個第一信託運郎當時他的警示物最多我就說那個中國信託我說中國信託跟詐騙集團We are family結果這樣子跟他以後人家不到半年三四個月"},{"start":14892.807,"end":14917.467,"text":"現在他們現在攔阻了28億元光是成立一個AI神盾聯防AI神盾聯防富邦金共也不遑多讓也弄了一個鷹眼國泰司法也推了國泰盾上半年他們主詐的金額12億元啦所以最主要"},{"start":14919.16,"end":14931.349,"text":"設這些就是可以防止內神通外鬼所以部長我要求是不是你應該回去好好的要求公股銀行仿效民間銀行那麼引進AI還有在總行設專責的監獄單位可不可以"},{"start":14939.96,"end":14954.87,"text":"委員對於好的做法我們一定要引進來然後看能不能再做更為的精進我想委員這個提示我們可以會後來就來做要求好謝謝那時間暫停你請回我請彭主委主委請"},{"start":14960.524,"end":14980.876,"text":"上個月我們被詐騙的金額76億啦只查扣到6億所以我一直不懂的就是說我們要求在治安單位要求之下希望我們銀行銀行端能夠配合圈存這些"},{"start":14982.59,"end":15001.326,"text":"受騙的金額結果圈存啦原先只圈存24小時銀行只配合24小時好不容易打詐釋法過以後現在社會壓力之下延長到48小時但是銀行公會也有講話啦24小時要48小時也罷"},{"start":15008.43,"end":15033.831,"text":"往往圈存的這些戶頭當警方過於忙碌當沒有再進一步方式的時候過了這個時間這個圈存戶又讓他恢復正常錢又流到詐騙集團他又拿走了所以我不懂銀行公會適合居心你今天回去問他一下適合居心啦現在詐騙集團在A"},{"start":15038.749,"end":15054.711,"text":"被外人在挨AI在我們台灣變成是這樣耶照片人A社會在挨好英南公會竟然"},{"start":15056.668,"end":15072.672,"text":"還大剌剌這麼講說這個全存時間過長你知道嗎民間第三方支付他們全存時間都20天以上第三方支付為什麼人家民間可以做到應安公衛這莫名其妙的單位嘛"},{"start":15079.144,"end":15094.357,"text":"所以你今天回去問他們好不好你問他們適合居心我要求應該配合治安單位把存時間增長可不可以我們趕快來跟銀行公會來研究"},{"start":15095.433,"end":15118.988,"text":"然後那個詐騙集團現在也應用這些自然人憑證在開戶啦那很不錯的我們有七家這島市這七家我看大部分是公營含庫啦這個剛才講的兆豐他換成他是模範營能的義營也不錯啦義營、華營、和庫、台企、永豐還有張營"},{"start":15120.709,"end":15141.938,"text":"他們都改成說要視訊驗證或者臨櫃辦理這才能開戶我認為詐騙到現在這種地步後你想想一個月76億了這個完全不用考慮就是取消應該取消自然人憑證的開戶要不然改成臨櫃"},{"start":15145.581,"end":15162.239,"text":"這個臨櫃或者視訊驗證的方式好不好那個主席抱歉是不是再給我15秒後要不要再給我30秒後我要提到金管會我們有針對各營能應用AI做一個調查這裡面有兩個答覆我覺得最莫名其妙啦"},{"start":15163.186,"end":15190.237,"text":"他們認為說竟然有百分之三十的銀行業者我不曉得哪幾家啦他們竟然回答說要運用AI的他說業務上佔無需要天啊業務上佔無需要我剛剛講了嘛你運用AI你像我剛剛提的這三大民營銀行他們用的這個"},{"start":15191.889,"end":15216.66,"text":"保護這個存款戶的方式像包括鷹眼國泰盾什麼AI神盾聯防這些人家就是善於應用AI嘛可以避免像台銀像義營宜蘭芬郎像台銀的奈芬郎這種內神通外鬼好不好我希望他們這個觀念要改你回去好好的跟他們談談"},{"start":15218.061,"end":15231.436,"text":"跟銀行公會談 跟各大公營行戶談 以及民間銀行對於已經有做 做得好的 我們鼓勵他對於不好的 你好好鞭策鞭策他們 好不好"},{"start":15232.998,"end":15259.539,"text":"目前表中其實銀行公會在這方面其實他們也非常努力但是我們還是會持續跟他們要求來改善剛剛那個AI的部分是因為可能調查工具的詢問的方式不一樣我想我們會要求他們盡量用科技主乍的方式來做這件事情來強化最好的可以避開人為疏忽或者勾結不法的這些事最棒的就是AI善用AI謝謝"},{"start":15262.982,"end":15267.586,"text":"謝謝王委員的資訊 現在請林竹英委員資訊請謝謝主席 我知道這個外委會的時間比較短所以請主席幫我邀請金管會彭主委 財政部金管會的彭主委 財政部的詹副長閻副總裁閻副總裁"},{"start":15293.342,"end":15295.285,"text":"有關於這個主權基金的部分本席其實在2023年5月24日的時候我就在財委會有質詢過那麼"},{"start":15311.064,"end":15338.279,"text":"搭配總統的這個有關於要成立主權基金我想先問一下央行所以央行現在態度還是認為因為當時楊總裁是跟我說成立主權基金可以討論但是不適合放央行所以央行現在認為還是不適合做一個組折的單位嗎因為我們在5月8號的那個在財務會的報告我們已經很明確把我們的觀點講出來因為外匯存體的操作和主權基金操作是完全不同的"},{"start":15338.599,"end":15345.038,"text":"是的但是主權操作未來其實一定會跟貨幣相關那麼到時候如果是這樣那央行會派人嗎"},{"start":15347.342,"end":15372.938,"text":"因為這是以後的程序問題要不要怎麼組成那都是由專法在規劃所以就是希望還是通過主權基金如果央行的角度就是要透過專法來處理是嗎對好 那麼財政部呢財政部當時也是說因為人力啊專財等等所以負責主權基金的業務不是不願意但是會有人力上面的問題所以現在依舊如果是這樣的話也是認為要透過專法"},{"start":15375.163,"end":15392.052,"text":"一定需要專訪來設置好那麼我要問一下金管會那麼因為這個整體如果未來真的主權基金要進來的時候其實大家知道他必定會跟我們的相關的國內的包括這些金融都會有相關那麼"},{"start":15392.532,"end":15407.825,"text":"金管會是站在什麼樣的一個角度因為未來這一筆龐大的資金那麼也會需要金融監理那麼金管會又會站在什麼角度呢在設立專法以前其實我相信國人也會很想要知道我現在邀請到的三位首長你們的態度是什麼"},{"start":15408.496,"end":15425.851,"text":"是當然這國家政策金管會是支持那只是說接下來金管會所扮演的角色比如說剛剛其實部長跟那副總裁都提到未來的那個形式是有各種不同的形態比如說剛剛也有委員提到保險業的資金的去入"},{"start":15426.371,"end":15442.561,"text":"那假如說未來的方式是以國家發債的方式我想這時候我們的金融機構的資金就可以來支持這件事情比如像這樣的話我們就會鼓勵我們的金融業來參與這樣因為我們的保險業特別需要國內的投資嘛所以這個大概是這樣一個方向"},{"start":15443.061,"end":15472.168,"text":"好因為我覺得這個部分是這樣我相信現在不論是財政部啦或者是像這個我們的相關的單位都會認為說沒有專財但是就像萬事起頭難我們國內其實有四大基金包括勞動部的勞工保險基金勞退基金勞保基金勞退基金然後權序部有公務人員退休撫恤基金交通部有郵政基金其實他們底下這些單位不論是勞金局或者是這個公務人員退休的管理基金的管理局"},{"start":15472.608,"end":15494.071,"text":"或是中華郵政他們一開始一定也都是沒有這些單位那未來這些單位要怎麼樣的成立恐怕就是財政部或者是央行甚至於金管會我相信這些法規在修的時候應該都會把這些東西考慮進去那我只是認為本席我們在上一屆的時候包括我們都有參與有關於主權基金的提案相關的部分我覺得現場"},{"start":15495.492,"end":15501.98,"text":"包括我們財委會的羅明財委員他當時也是一起共同提案那我認為這些東西都可以再次拿來參考他過去討論那麼現在可能實際上可以應用的到那麼另外一個我要問的題目的話就請財政部長留下來彭主委跟我們的總裁可以先回去休息"},{"start":15515.436,"end":15542.557,"text":"就是本席其實一直在追的這個問題就是有關於現在中國的滲透的方法方方面面其中有一個方式是現在透過歌迷會的方式那麼本席特別關注的是像這樣的一個具有中國資金背景的公司他在澳門是有黨政軍背景公司然後他委託台灣這間叫做上億公司來做處理"},{"start":15543.257,"end":15557.546,"text":"那這樣的一個歌迷會呢問題在哪裡為什麼會跟財政部有關呢不是國安的問題嗎我跟主席借個兩分鐘我把這個題目釐清也希望財政部跟複稅署能夠來了解就是這樣一個歌迷會5月10號台灣才賣票但是中國的黃牛4月30號就可以開賣了而且他委託的是境外"},{"start":15568.462,"end":15584.664,"text":"的這種所謂的公司在做切票我們要知道一場歌迷會到底他賣了多少張票有多少的收入如果在台灣境內用台灣的售票系統包括營業稅 包括銀索稅我們可以抓得到"},{"start":15585.405,"end":15595.672,"text":"但是如果說是4月30號在境外中國的黃牛用中國的售票系統就買了我現在要求的是這個有沒有逃漏稅的問題有沒有相關的問題除了國安的問題之外我覺得站在財委會的角度 財政部的角度是這些稅不能讓它跑掉所以我請問部長或會署這個事情能不能查"},{"start":15612.262,"end":15618.129,"text":"然後可以怎麼查如果沒有答案我可以請你們提交報告給我然後告訴我多久可以有報告是不是我們了解整個情況以後再以報告來給委員"},{"start":15625.441,"end":15652.123,"text":"那可以查嗎 先告訴我 這樣可以查嗎報告委員 其實我們在查核有沒有漏報營業稅短漏營業稅 委員索稅有很多方法像這個如果他最後這個見面什麼歌迷什麼簽證會 這種事在台灣舉行其實我們也可以實地去看現場到底有多少歌迷在那邊如果 當然有一種狀況是如果他是封鎖的不讓我們進去 那是另外供權力的行為兩個禮拜 兩個禮拜第一個報告給"},{"start":15658.887,"end":15666.812,"text":"希望不要有這個逃漏稅的疑慮啦好 謝謝謝謝另外一個質詢 下一位請廖先生 委員請謝謝主席 有麻煩請央行原副總裁央行的原副總裁請"},{"start":15683.934,"end":15707.191,"text":"副總來好,因為央行這個持有非常多的外匯存底對我們國家來說是一筆非常大的財產財富所以說它的價值我想也是大家非常注重的那先前也在茶友會有質詢過我們的總裁因為川普就任之後,有些人懷疑美元霸權是否會動搖那美元的價值等等的,包括殖利率等等的"},{"start":15708.391,"end":15726.641,"text":"那時候的總裁跟我說他並不會目前並沒有要調整一攬子貨幣的一個比例那我可不可以請總裁這個第一點我先跟副總裁確認一下我們目前央行持有的美元就川普就任以來持有的美國的債券是增加還減少的"},{"start":15728.518,"end":15742.866,"text":"這個方向你應該會有清楚吧我們持有美債的都是到期以後轉換所以在每一個時間點他都有到期的也有我們要新買的那你們的方向是持續購入還是減碼"},{"start":15744.847,"end":15770.087,"text":"所以我的了解就是目前因為我們每年的外匯存都在增加所以我們在持有美債我印象中今年還是有一點增加所以就是過往的政策一樣因為基數變大所以是增加那第二點麻煩業務單位先幫我查一下這個看能不能在質詢結束前幫我計算一下就我國的外匯以台幣計價的損益川普總統就任到今天為止"},{"start":15770.888,"end":15793.755,"text":"好不好 那我想先跟總裁確認一下我們央行一再的對外宣稱 我們並沒有操控匯率嘛 對不對對好 那下一頁好 這個美元指數嘛 這個副總裁應該非常了解喔從川普總統就任以後 美元指數跌了8.6%就是對宜蘭子的貨幣 它跌了8.6%那我們來看一下一些其他的貨幣"},{"start":15795.376,"end":15819.583,"text":"那美元兌換日元喔美元兌換日元的部分也跌了7點多趴蠻接近剛才的一個數字喔接下來歐元兌換美元喔這應該反過來看啦那歐元兌換美元也漲了這個8點多趴那其實也符合美元指數的一個波動大家都是在這個區間調整然後都是有這個線型啦這個叫做K線嘛K線的線型大概都是差不多的下一張"},{"start":15821.192,"end":15835.537,"text":"然後我們的美元兌換新台幣的指數卻跟別人長得很不一樣我們最終的結果到目前為止也是跌就是我們美元兌台幣是跌了7%就我們大概漲了7、8%左右"},{"start":15836.337,"end":15851.523,"text":"但是我們的現形跟別的很不一樣反而是在這個之前兩三個禮拜之前一次性的把美元對應一攬子貨幣的漲幅跌幅美元對其他貨幣的跌幅我們台幣是把它漲回來了副總裁你覺得要怎麼解釋這樣子"},{"start":15858.683,"end":15882.691,"text":"我們在面臨匯率波動比較大的時候央行的每天的操作策略當然會有所調整是那這個也是我們過去一直在做的一個別人在穩定波動的時候對美元穩定的在漲的時候我們卻可以看到前一段時間都是穩定的持平的也就是我們跟美元幾乎是完全掛鉤的別人對美元漲我們卻沒有"},{"start":15884.051,"end":15889.961,"text":"然後大概在關稅談判的時候卻一次把別人的漲幅一次漲回來"},{"start":15892.091,"end":15914.918,"text":"副總裁你要說你們沒有操控匯率嗎那個報告委員因為我們的基本的論點是當這個外匯市場有出現這種比較不正常的交易我們認為是有一點問題目前看起來就是台幣不正常啊其他貨幣看起來都一致啊美元指數日元歐元都一致只有新台幣不正常然後一次就把這個數字把它補回來了"},{"start":15915.518,"end":15940.159,"text":"那個報告委員如果你去看一下其他的經濟資料我們的第一季經濟成長率是比亞洲各國都高很多第二個我們的外資在四月五月都大量匯入我們的漲幅也跟別人是幾乎差不多的啊是吧匯率它反映很多的經濟面的一個程度那副總理你說這樣子的一個線圖跟別人比較起來這樣算正常嗎"},{"start":15941.733,"end":15960.385,"text":"還是正常還不正常我們認為我們透過這樣子的操作策略讓我們的新台幣升值預期有一點點把它降低很多好不好我想在這段時間匯率漲或跌都有好處跟壞處這個不討論但是就是要穩定不能有巨大的波動"},{"start":15960.925,"end":15973.904,"text":"但是我們的央行很明顯的在川普就任之後為了跟美元掛鉤到最後的一個結果造了許多廠商的一個損失或是銀行的一個損失我認為這是央行必須要好好檢討的下一張下一張"},{"start":15975.066,"end":16003.349,"text":"好那接下來就是一樣這個美元霸權的一個問題啦對美元一攬子貨幣我們的外匯存底到底要不要孤注在美元身上那先前標準普爾跟匯域都已經調降了穆迪也在上禮拜五調降了我想還是要繼續請我們央行要思考一下在全球這個美元貶值的情況下然後信用平等的都持續調降之下我們是不是要來調整一下我們的外匯存底的一個配置的比例啊我覺得真的要請"},{"start":16004.37,"end":16026.529,"text":"央行我們好好思考一下然後剛剛第一頁的第二題目會後再給我資料這一點我覺得就是牽涉我們國人財產的問題那我後續會再持續追蹤好不好謝謝謝謝現在有蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉我們不在何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳我們不在邱志偉委員請質詢"},{"start":16040.158,"end":16051.881,"text":"謝謝,我先請這個...顏副總裁顏副總裁請同時請金管會彭主委金管會彭主委跟財政部財政部總部長總裁、副總裁前面剛才問,他說跟美元掛鉤啊你那個央行政策,你要不要我給你時間說明一下他剛才沒要跟你說"},{"start":16072.018,"end":16077.386,"text":"其實我們的外匯的操作策略我們看到市場出現很"},{"start":16078.66,"end":16107.02,"text":"很異常的時候我們會加大我們的進展干預的程度前面那個說你們跟美元掛鉤有這回事嗎我不曉得所謂的掛鉤是因為美元是我們很重要的一個交易的媒介所以我們匯率在某種程度上是跟國際美元有一點連動的關係的匯率政策是一個非常非常重要但是也非常非常專業你要綜合判斷各個因素"},{"start":16108.158,"end":16132.603,"text":"做這個會議的決策很簡單的一顧為就可以規則於什麼原因規則於這個決策是因為什麼這樣不專業而且我覺得在國會質詢要有一定的素養跟水平好我第一個問題想請教這個三位包括彭主委包括莊部長就新清安的房貸房貸這個核貸量降"},{"start":16137.694,"end":16155.077,"text":"因為新台幣這個強升經濟不確定因素提升所以四月的核貸年減30%月減20%這個對青年人要貸款是非常不容易還有剛性需求也會被處"},{"start":16156.707,"end":16168.15,"text":"現在撥分是經管會還是要財政部還是要央行共同跨部來解決怎麼樣讓新青安這些年輕人的貸款能夠更為簡便更為順利有關新青安這個部分他就幫助沒有房屋的青年朋友們去買第一間房子"},{"start":16180.663,"end":16205.932,"text":"那在我們供股行庫在沉坐的時候事實上我們的院長已經要求就是說對於這種自住的然後首購族都是優先的放貸可是從數字來看它是年減30%月減20%這個部分第一個受理的件數也往下降的話那當然合貸的件數跟金額也會往下降那受理的件數也就是說他去買房子以後他來申請貸款嘛"},{"start":16207.412,"end":16230.701,"text":"那其實新青岸從推出以後之前其實在去年的時候五月達到最高的一個高峰所以目前的政策作為不會影響新青岸貸款的相關的效率速度不會目前不會譬如說像央行的信用管制對於首購族也沒有做一些特別的部分所以也不會有這個門檻的增加那我想請問彭主委您的看法呢"},{"start":16232.021,"end":16259.4,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們從去年9月30號開始每個禮拜監控市場房貸的變化那我們得到幾個結論從過去一直到現在9個月的時間大概平均一個月的貸放量大概是250億到350億之間平均大概就是300億左右我們平均的餘額大概是2500億總量大概是維持在4000億左右的水準那大概"},{"start":16260.2,"end":16284.147,"text":"這意思是說這麼久來幾乎大概都是沒有變化因為這個都可以去查我轉成另外一個問題就是說這個國營的房貸的壞帳是有增加對不對這個壞帳增加當然是在可控的範圍沒有對於這個房貸的並沒有因此而增加但比例上是沒有增加啦但是總額有增加吧"},{"start":16285.442,"end":16309.345,"text":"總額有增加啦我只是提醒一下總額有增加啦這個應該是這樣講我們會定期公佈這個剛剛講餘放比率現在這是一個訊息但是現在目前在可控範圍這是一個訊息剛剛副總也了解那我接著再請教一下嚴副總裁就是說關於第七波的健全房市的信用管制"},{"start":16310.185,"end":16326.133,"text":"那上一次這個總裁來,我記得郭國文委員也曾經請教過他,是不是會做這個調整或是會對這個政策做一些的修正,他說他會檢討,那檢討不見得會調整,意思是說會檢討,那不是會調整,你的看法呢?"},{"start":16331.761,"end":16349.121,"text":"就是說第七波信用管制有沒有可能再放鬆報告委員我剛才已經回答過其他委員同樣的問題就是說我們在理事會開會之前我們都會檢視我們最近的那個房地產情況我們再做判斷所以現在言之過早"},{"start":16350.114,"end":16353.216,"text":"其實我們的同仁每天都在注意到相關資訊的收集和整理"},{"start":16372.216,"end":16398.01,"text":"這個有關於你買新房子那舊房子要一年之內要拒絕要出售你第一個房子覺得第二個房子條件比較差可能坪數比較小可能地點比較不好所以他才有換屋的需求對不對好你買了房子你要一年之內要把它賣掉第一個除非運氣好第二個除非你這個降價求售"},{"start":16399.54,"end":16413.696,"text":"它地點絕對是比地點更壞所以它那個房屋處置的時間你要讓它有彈性你說叫它一年 沒一年你就要收回相關的貸款我覺得這不盡合理每個區不一樣喔"},{"start":16415.798,"end":16438.171,"text":"你每個去牛籠 台北市 台北市 買地戶 賣地戶當然沒有什麼太大問題如果從屏東市 屏東縣要到高雄縣或者從台南 嘉義要到台南也許它的城市發展 規模不一樣所以它每坪的售價也不一樣它的房子條件也不一樣沒有 剛才前面一個也讓你可以了啦 已經已經給你很多時間了啦你要一致同仁啦已經給你很多時間了你要一致標準 你不用雙標"},{"start":16444.918,"end":16469.238,"text":"那個 我請教一下那個副總長您的看法有沒有可能讓他 這個彈性你說 啊 今天沒有啊這個報告委員 因為很多的意見我們都會拿回去再參考和研議啦對啦 但是這個還是 這是反映民情反映民情啦 所以你要去做一些調整 去參考謝謝卿委員的出席 謝謝"},{"start":16471.657,"end":16496.956,"text":"葉元之 葉元之 魏元之委員不在陳貫庭 陳貫庭 陳貫庭委員不在博文輝今日登記發言委員 今日詢談完畢現在處理中華民國114年度中央政府總預算金管會主管的預算解凍案 專案報告9案"},{"start":16501.256,"end":16509.983,"text":"現在與預算解凍無關的行政官員可以離席財政部啊 央行可以離席金管會就留下來好 請議事人員宣讀處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關金融監督管理委員會主管預算凍結專案報告9案1金管會新增決議凍結金管會之業務費預算30%專案報告案"},{"start":16531.64,"end":16537.783,"text":"2.凍結第二幕金融監理向下金融監督管理預算50萬元書面報告案3."},{"start":16537.783,"end":16542.326,"text":"凍結第二幕向下金融監督管理預算1%專案報告案4."},{"start":16542.326,"end":16547.569,"text":"金管會銀行局新增決議凍結金管會銀行局之業務費預算30%專案報告案"},{"start":16550.871,"end":16558.555,"text":"五 金管會正期局新增決議凍結金管會正期局之業務費預算30%專案報告案六 金管會保險局新增決議凍結金管會保險局之業務費30%專案報告案"},{"start":16568.619,"end":16573.741,"text":"7.凍結金管會保險局第二幕保險監理預算100萬元專案報告案8."},{"start":16573.741,"end":16576.382,"text":"金管會檢察局新增決議凍結金管會檢察局業務費預算30%專案報告案9."},{"start":16576.382,"end":16579.563,"text":"凍結金管會檢察局第二幕金融機構檢查預算300萬元專案報告案宣讀完畢"},{"start":16594.372,"end":16598.763,"text":"這個我們現場不夠委員所以稍等一下好不好"},{"start":16616.51,"end":16630.06,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":16642.23,"end":16663.316,"text":"好 向委員會報告現在我們有委員已經到了法定門數了求告委員對於金管會專案報告的9案預算解凍有異議願意我們通過審查環境準理動之提報運費"},{"start":16666.045,"end":16687.399,"text":"報告委員會本次的會議作如下之決定第一報告說明及巡打全部完畢第二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會在一週內以書面答覆委員令要求期限者從其所定"},{"start":16688.34,"end":16715.825,"text":"第三 委員楊瓊英 陳冠廷所提的書面質詢列入紀錄 看登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆第四 針對114年度中央政府總預算用凍結案處理情形金管會主管預算解凍案48案均處理穩均 準理鬥志提報用會"},{"start":16717.765,"end":16738.912,"text":"請問各位委員對於以上決議有異沒有異議我們就通過那麼各位委員本次會議議程已進行完畢假如有不在場的委員補題順便質詢一併列入記錄看登公報並請議事人員協助處理 上位"}]}},{"id":"161784","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161784","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7dbb91e68d67255f563e11a54d16b4ae5699762613b50df72fd75783c786b3857c15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"16:27:42 - 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何副秘副秘書長好首先第一個我當然還是先要表達一下今天兩位秘書長沒有來我的看法那我還是覺得是首先第一天我今天本來聽說以為是你們都不到那我就覺得事情蠻大條但還好你有來啦 還好你有來但是我覺得"},{"start":39.774,"end":61.273,"text":"昨天我們賴清德總統才說要對話嘛那事實上加上我也看你們的報告剛剛你的詢答也把今天解凍案的一些各項問題講得非常嚴重啊我個人衷心的建議啦就是說像既然認為這麼嚴重的事情而預算的一個所謂的決定權也不是副秘書長是秘書長的一個權限這種情況之下當然還是希望這個首長能夠到包括國安會包括總統府的那個秘書長"},{"start":67.398,"end":84.345,"text":"但是我還是特別提一下因為至少總統府的秘書長有跟我們的主席請假那這一點的話主席也准假所以在程序上嚴格來講我覺得沒有什麼太大問題所以我們就可以開始繼續我們今天的一些詢問那首先我想要請教一下我們的副秘書長就是"},{"start":86.726,"end":110.013,"text":"總統的520的獎稿是哪個單位 府內哪個單位做幕僚作業的我們的公共事務室下面的有幾個單位還有這個他們有一些那個叫做文稿小組差不多啦但是文稿小組的話是哪位副秘書長督導的是我們的張敦涵所以不是你的督導職務嗎因為以他為主"},{"start":113.014,"end":141.352,"text":"那我先跟何富密講 因為我也當過總統府副秘書長以前在我的任內的話 基本上文稿小組是我在督導的所以520的講稿基本上就是我這邊要負責彙整整合然後做擬稿跟定稿那我今天發現一件事情 我想請教我們副秘書長你知道我們歷來包括從陳水扁 馬英九 蔡英文到賴清德的520講稿哪一位總統520講稿裡面竟然沒有出現兩岸"},{"start":143.496,"end":149.133,"text":"哪一位總統?您知道嗎?就是賴清德總統"},{"start":150.819,"end":172.822,"text":"其他的總統都會提到兩岸包括賴清哲總統就職的時候也有特別提到兩岸提到中國的滲透跟威脅那我不知道為什麼今年的520講稿會破歷史之記錄在520講稿裡面是不放兩岸這一塊有什麼樣特殊的原因讓總統府有這樣的考量嗎這個部分我可能沒辦法"},{"start":173.993,"end":200.527,"text":"做這樣子的回應因為你不是文稿小組的那個督導的副秘書長但是我先講一件事情這件事情我覺得傳遞一個坦白講對總統不是很恰當的訊息總統對外釋出一個不是很恰當的訊息那就變成是有幾種解讀方式嘛一個是總統認為兩岸他做得太好好到沒話說所以不用說了別的總統都還要稍微提一下兩岸"},{"start":201.729,"end":205.401,"text":"結果我做得太棒了 我無話可說是這樣的意思嗎"},{"start":207.315,"end":233.661,"text":"您覺得 您當他幕僚也當了一年多了嘛 對不對一年滿一天我覺得這個部分還是要由委員以及全國的民眾來看待對 因為這個部分我直接回答說好也不是 說不好也不是所以我沒辦法給一個直接的我了解 你的回答當然要保守一點你做幕僚你要保守一點可是我要講你一定是釋出一個非常不尋常的訊息出去嘛"},{"start":234.241,"end":243.268,"text":"你要嘛就是說 你今天總統真的兩岸關係做不好你覺得講了讓大家覺得 你覺得沒有東西可以跟大家交代再不然你就覺得做得太好 對不對 我不需要講"},{"start":244.295,"end":272.944,"text":"那另外一個就是說也有人認為說今天難道是受到美方的壓力嗎因為兩岸關係趙總統去年跟最近的說法其實都蠻強硬的嘛這一點沒錯嘛都比較強硬嘛那今年如果520裡面他沒有一點強硬的兩岸關係的說法那跟他以前的調性不合的話那就變得好像外界覺得翻車還是打臉可是他又沒有辦法今天講的所謂的很強硬那可能有一些外部壓力我覺得為什麼剛剛特別強調"},{"start":274.444,"end":303.251,"text":"當然你不能講但是外界自然而然對於總統這次的520講稿就有很多很多的解讀嘛就非常特殊的一點像我們在會診講稿的時候一定是兩岸國防外交經濟教育文化各個面向環保面向我們就可能會認為說哪些東西要把它列進去但是有一樣東西兩岸國防外交因為總統的所謂的核心職能這三塊幾乎沒有一個總統會在520講稿裡面把它落掉的"},{"start":303.931,"end":329.113,"text":"那我到現在為止是不能理解啦不能理解為什麼總統在這次520講稿裡面會把兩岸這塊拉掉那也麻煩你轉告另外一位張副秘書長或是總府發言人能不能跟他示意一下為什麼今天要破天荒核心職務竟然少一塊那你不能跟我講那個二缺一總統啊就只剩下兩塊而已啊這是第一個啦那第二個我也想要請教一下那個副秘書長坦白講我覺得"},{"start":330.794,"end":347.351,"text":"我蠻覺得羨慕我們賴清德總統賴清德總統最近講了一段話我真的身為也當過總務府的幕僚我看的是下巴掉下來了請問是誰定位中國大陸是境外敵對勢力誰定位的"},{"start":350.097,"end":371.352,"text":"我想這個部分要問一下我們的國防部 還有我們國安部第一個公開站出來定位 當領導人的就是我們賴清德總統他直接說境外敵對勢力就是中共但是我想常常聽委員在質詢的時候 我們也是這樣定位的啊我跟你講 公開啦 直接定位的 賴清德總統是第一人"},{"start":372.335,"end":385.358,"text":"那現在問題來了已經定位對岸是境外敵對勢力我真的不太懂那個邏輯啦為什麼說大陸是大公司我們是小公司要來併購台灣要提條件我要問的第一個問題現在大陸併台灣是有條件可以講可以跟境外敵對勢力來談條件的嗎請問一下副秘書長要談什麼條件我們才願意跟他談啊到底大陸要提什麼條件願意跟他談啊"},{"start":402.281,"end":418.246,"text":"我想這個整個裡面的那個interview那個專訪裡面有四個字一定要看到叫做這不行啊這不行啊這不行啊他全面舉那個例子我告訴你我也有看啦我告訴你我跟你講我也有看啦"},{"start":424.589,"end":442.841,"text":"他就是說要尊重中華民國存在的事實不是我跟你講你所謂這不行你前面舉的那個例子加一句這不行我跟你講外面的解讀也是很多啦第一個就講說意思說你沒有提條件就不行啊那你就跟我講說對方要提條件我直接跟你說啦沒有任何條件可談你認同嗎"},{"start":444.687,"end":473.928,"text":"副市長認不認同其實賴總統我跟境外敵對勢力我有什麼東西可以談你都說他是境外敵對勢力是敵人了敵人要併你請問到底有什麼可談的我想他只是一個比喻那他沒有要去併那我跟副秘書長講我抱歉因為也同樣你說文稿不是你負責那我就要苛責那位張副秘書長了本來就是啊總統講這樣的話坦白講我覺得是對總統的職位跟高度是有傷害的"},{"start":474.528,"end":483.184,"text":"那今天作為總統的幕僚單位你讓總統有這樣的一個表現一個狀況更何況我跟你講就我所知那個節目是直播嗎"},{"start":485.356,"end":510.462,"text":"這個節目原則上全面的沒有剪接沒有剪接啊原汁原味那我告訴你喔有沒有剪接是一回事啦它既然不是直播的節目你做一個幕僚單位也許總統是即興為之難道你不需要看一下嗎做幕僚單位有沒有總統interview完之後把那個節目再看一遍因為它還沒播嘛沒錯吧有沒有看一遍"},{"start":512.154,"end":530.627,"text":"據我的了解應該是有啦對當然要看啊看完以後沒有一個幕僚沒有一個幕僚覺得中央獎這樣不對一個幕僚都沒有嗎你有沒有看 何富密不是後來才看到但是提醒我15秒鐘一 主權絕對不是商品啦"},{"start":531.226,"end":556.269,"text":"二 我覺得賴總統對於主權的堅持是大家有目共睹的第三個部分 這個訪問裡面它只是一個比喻但是更多的部分在論述台灣主權的重要性以及中華民國的尊信不可侵犯以及尊重國民我想 而且最後一個部分就是其實我們這一次的專訪我們在日本打開市場了"},{"start":556.869,"end":571.403,"text":"那用這樣子的比喻更多有商業思維的朋友也會更認同我們我們當初的起心動念是這樣子當然委員的指教我都聽下來我也記錄下來其實我覺得你三點講得很好啊謝謝非常好啊尤其第一點可是我好怕你會突然再問我"},{"start":573.765,"end":599.879,"text":"可以認識這麼久你都OK的我知道啦我跟你講你剛剛講第一個就是重點嘛主權不是商品是的所以他結合第三點就是你的比喻你說這只是個比喻你把主權比喻為商品坦白講我覺得我跟你講我先不講賴清德總統啦人有失言比喻不當也是有可能可是幕僚的部分更何況我還是講那個節目又不是直播"},{"start":600.899,"end":619.727,"text":"我真的覺得你如果幕僚稍微有點敏感度在事後看了以後應該也要點出這件事情啊所以這一點是我還是覺得說幕僚工作還是要做好那最後我要特別講就是說基本上賴清德總統我覺得那個朝野的對話我很支持但是呢"},{"start":621.349,"end":647.184,"text":"為什麼要加一個國安的限制啊我們中華民國草野之間因為重視當然重視 那你跟我講經濟不重視還是說外交不重視還是說今天農業不重視 環境不重視你是學長 其實國安裡面都有包含啦那我跟你講 你就針對台灣的政經情勢做大家一個相互溝通嘛因為重視 所以 因為太重視好啦好啦 我跟你講 坦白講啦 我還是那句話啦"},{"start":647.924,"end":658.409,"text":"既然要朝野對話就不要給自己框一個框框啊因為總統是一個有高度的職務除非你不要嘛你不要是一回事那是一個政治選擇但你要的時候就大家覺得說"},{"start":659.4,"end":675.711,"text":"感覺我覺得格局跟氣度還可以再恢弘一點點雙手都要張開來去跟大家對話協商雙手張開我就說一點點只有國安這一塊可是用國安來做的話才是真正的規格啊好啦我跟你講我要告訴你什麼叫國政經緯萬端"},{"start":680.954,"end":699.086,"text":"國政經緯萬端不要什麼都冠國安兩個字啦國安當然是一個範疇一個國安的專業範疇領域也有他的一個專業定義範圍那你什麼都無限上綱也不一定是一件好事這是我最後忠心的建議啦所以如果說真的朝野對話真的不用去框現什麼樣的框架謝謝你"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":959,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（16時27分）有請總統府何副秘書長。"],["主席：好，何副秘。"],["何副秘書長志偉：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：副秘書長好。首先第一個我當然還是先要表達一下我對於今天兩位秘書長沒有來的看法，我還是覺得，首先第一點，我今天本來以為是你們都不到，我就覺得事情滿大條的，但還好你有來，但是我覺得昨天我們賴清德總統才說要對話，事實上加上我看你們報告，剛剛你的詢答也把今天解凍案的一些各項問題講得非常嚴重，我個人衷心地建議，就是既然認為這麼嚴重的事情，預算的所謂的決定權也不是副秘書長，是秘書長的權限，這種情況之下，當然還是希望首長能夠到，包括國安會、包括總統府的秘書長，但是我還是特別提一下，因為至少總統府的秘書長有跟我們的主席請假，這一點的話，主席也准假，程序上嚴格來講，我覺得沒有什麼太大問題，所以我們就可以開始繼續我們今天的一些詢答。首先我想要請教一下副秘書長，總統520的講稿是府內哪個單位做幕僚作業的？"],["何副秘書長志偉：我們的公共事務室下面有幾個單位，還有他們有一些文稿小組。"],["羅委員智強：好，差不多啦！"],["何副秘書長志偉：但是……"],["羅委員智強：但是文稿小組是哪位副秘書長督導的？"],["何副秘書長志偉：是我們的張惇涵跟我們……"],["羅委員智強：所以不是你督導的職務嘛！"],["何副秘書長志偉：對，以他為主。"],["羅委員智強：我先跟何副秘講，因為我也當過總統府副秘書長，以前在我的任內的話，基本上文稿小組是我在督導的，所以520的講稿基本上就是我這邊要負責彙整整合，然後做擬稿跟定稿。我今天發現一件事情，我想請教副秘書長，你知道我們歷來包括從陳水扁、馬英九、蔡英文到賴清德的520講稿，哪一位總統520講稿裡面竟然沒有出現兩岸？哪一位總統，您知道嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：請委員就教。"],["羅委員智強：就只有賴清德總統，其他的總統都會提到兩岸，包括賴清德總統就職的時候也有特別提到兩岸，提到中國的滲透跟威脅，我不知道為什麼今年520講稿會破歷史紀錄，在520講稿裡面不放兩岸這一塊，有什麼樣特殊的原因，讓總統府有這樣的考量嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：這個部分，我可能沒辦法做這樣的回應。"],["羅委員智強：對啊，因為你不是督導文稿小組的副秘書長，但是我先講一件事情，這件事情我覺得坦白講總統對外釋出一個不是很恰當的訊息，那就變成是有幾種解讀方式，第一個是總統認為兩岸他做得太好，好到沒話說，所以不用說了，別的總統都還要稍微提一下兩岸，結果做得太棒了，我無話可說，是這樣的意思嗎？您當他幕僚也當了一年多了，對不對？做了一年滿一天。"],["何副秘書長志偉：我覺得這個部分還是要由委員以及全國的民眾來看待，因為這個部分，我直接回答說好也不是，說不好也不是，所以我沒辦法給一個直接的回應。"],["羅委員智強：好，我了解，你回答當然保守一點，你做幕僚，你要保守一點。可是我要講，你一定是釋出一個非常不尋常的訊息出去，你要嘛就是今天總統真的兩岸關係做不好，你覺得沒有東西可以跟大家交代，要不然就覺得做得太好，我不需要講。另外一個，也有人認為今天難道是受到美方的壓力嗎？因為兩岸關係照總統去年跟最近的說法其實都蠻強硬的，這點沒錯嘛？都比較強硬，今年如果520裡面，他沒有強硬一點的兩岸關係的說法，那跟他以前的調性不合的話，就變得外界好像覺得翻車還是打臉，可是他又沒有辦法講得很強硬，可能有些外部壓力，為什麼剛剛特別強調？當然你不能講，可是外界自然而然，對於總統這一次的520講稿，就有很多很多的解讀，這是非常特殊的一點，像我們在彙整講稿的時候，一定是兩岸、國防、外交、經濟、教育、文化、環保各個面向，我們可能會認為說哪些東西要把它列進去，但是有一樣東西，兩岸、國防、外交，總統所謂的核心職能，這三塊幾乎沒有一個總統會在520講稿裡面把它落掉的，我到現在為止是不能理解為什麼總統在這次520講稿裡面會把兩岸這塊落掉，那也麻煩轉告另外一位張副秘書長或是總統府發言人，能不能請他釋疑一下，為什麼今天要破天荒，核心職務竟然少一塊，那你不能跟我講二缺一總統，就只剩下兩塊而已，這是第一個。","第二個，我也想要請教一下副秘書長，坦白講，我蠻羨慕我們賴清德總統。賴清德總統最近講了一段話，我也當過總統府的幕僚，我看得是下巴掉下來，請問是誰定位中國大陸是境外敵對勢力？誰定位的？"],["何副秘書長志偉：我想這個部分，要問一下我們的國防部他們國安的部分，其實……"],["羅委員智強：第一個公開站出來定位，當領導人的，就是我們賴清德總統。他直接說，境外敵對勢力就是中國。"],["何副秘書長志偉：但是我常常聽委員在質詢的時候，我們也是這樣定位的啊。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，公開直接定位的賴清德總統是第一人，現在問題來了，已經定位對岸是境外敵對勢力，我真的不太懂那個邏輯，為什麼說大陸是大公司，我們是小公司，要來併購臺灣要提條件。我要問的第一個問題，今天大陸併臺灣是有條件可以講，可以跟境外敵對勢力來談條件的嗎？請問一下副秘書長，到底大陸要提什麼條件，我們才願意跟他談？"],["何副秘書長志偉：我想這整個interview專訪裡面有四個字，一定要看到，叫做「這不行啊、這不行啊、這不行啊」，他前面舉了那個例子，然後他裡面其實……"],["羅委員智強：我也有看。"],["何副秘書長志偉：其實大家都有嘛！他說要尊重中華民國存在的事實。"],["羅委員智強：不是，我跟你講，你所謂的這不行……"],["何副秘書長志偉：這不行啊！重點在「這不行啊」。"],["羅委員智強：前面舉的那個例子加一句這不行，我跟你講，外面的解讀也是很多啦，第一個就講說，意思是說你沒有提條件就不行啊，那你就跟我講說對方要提條件，我直接跟你說，沒有任何條件可談，你認同嗎？副秘書長，認不認同？"],["何副秘書長志偉：其實賴總統……"],["羅委員智強：我跟境外敵對勢力有什麼東西可以談，你都說他是境外敵對勢力，是敵人了，敵人要併你，請問到底有什麼可談的啊？"],["何副秘書長志偉：我想他只是一個比喻，他沒有要被併，也不可以被併。"],["羅委員智強：抱歉，因為同樣你說文稿不是你負責，那我就要苛責那位張副秘書長了。"],["何副秘書長志偉：不要啦。"],["羅委員智強：本來就是啊，總統講這樣的話，坦白講，我覺得對總統的職位跟高度是有傷害的，那今天作為總統的幕僚單位，你讓總統有這樣的一個表現、一個狀況，就我所知……那個節目是直播嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：這個節目原則上全面的都沒有剪接。"],["羅委員智強：沒有剪接？"],["何副秘書長志偉：對，沒有剪接，原汁原味。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，有沒有剪接是一回事，他既然不是直播的節目，也許總統是即興為之，你做一個幕僚單位，難道你不需要看一下嗎？幕僚單位在總統interview完之後，有沒有把那個節目再看一遍，因為他還沒播嘛，沒錯吧，有沒有看一遍？"],["何副秘書長志偉：據我的了解應該是有啦。"],["羅委員智強：當然要看啊，看完以後，沒有一個幕僚覺得總統這樣講不對，一個幕僚都沒有嗎？何副秘，你有沒有看？"],["何副秘書長志偉：我是後來才看到，但是允許我講15秒鐘，一、主權，絕對不是商品啦！二、我覺得賴總統對於主權的堅持，是大家有目共睹的。第三個部分，這個訪問裡面，他只是一個比喻，但是更多的部分在論述臺灣主權的重要性，中華民國的神聖不可侵犯，以及尊重國民。"],["羅委員智強：三點我收到了。"],["何副秘書長志偉：最後一個部分，其實我們這一次的專訪，我們在日本打開市場了，用這樣子的比喻，更多有商業思維的朋友，也會更認同我們，我們當初起心動念是這樣子，當然委員的指教我都聽下來，我也紀錄下來。"],["羅委員智強：其實我覺得你三點講得很好。"],["何副秘書長志偉：謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，尤其第一點。"],["何副秘書長志偉：可是我好怕你又會突然再問我。"],["羅委員智強：認識這麼久，你都OK的，我知道。我跟你講，你剛剛講第一個就是重點嘛，主權不是商品。"],["何副秘書長志偉：是的。"],["羅委員智強：你說這只是個比喻，你把主權比喻為商品，坦白講，我先不講賴清德總統，人有失言，比喻不當也是有可能，何況那個節目又不是直播，可是幕僚的部分，我真的覺得如果稍微有點敏感度……"],["何副秘書長志偉：記下來。"],["羅委員智強：在事後看了以後，應該也要點出這件事情，所以這一點我還是覺得幕僚工作還是要做好。最後我要特別講，基本上，賴清德總統那個朝野的對話，我很支持，但是為什麼要加一個國安的限制？我們中華民國朝野之間……"],["何副秘書長志偉：因為重視。"],["羅委員智強：當然重視，那你跟我講，經濟不重視，還是說外交不重視，還是農業不重視，環境不重視？"],["何副秘書長志偉：國安也包含外交，其實學長，國安裡面都有包含啦。"],["羅委員智強：那我跟你講，你就針對臺灣的政經情勢，大家一個相互溝通。"],["何副秘書長志偉：因為太重視，所以我們張開雙手……"],["羅委員智強：坦白講，我還是那句話，既然要朝野對話，就不要給自己匡一個框框，因為總統是一個有高度的職務，所以除非你不要，你不要是一回事，那是一個政治選擇，但你要的時候，我覺得格局跟氣度還可以再恢弘一點點，雙手都要張開，來去跟大家對話協商，可以雙手張開又縮一點點，只有國安這一塊。"],["何副秘書長志偉：可是用國安來做的話，才是真正的規格，對不對？"],["羅委員智強：好啦，我跟你講，我要告訴你什麼叫……"],["何副秘書長志偉：一般民眾還沒辦法真正聽到國安情勢簡報。"],["羅委員智強：國政經緯萬端，不要什麼都灌國安兩個字，國安當然是一個範疇，因為國安的專業範疇領域也有它的專業定義範圍，那你什麼都無限上綱也不一定是一件好事，這是我最後衷心的建議。所以，朝野對話真的不用去框什麼樣的框架，謝謝你。"],["何副秘書長志偉：感謝。"],["主席：好，休息5分鐘。","休息（16時39分）","繼續開會（16時45分）"],["主席：下一位請鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員。","所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","委員沈發惠所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王鴻薇","羅智強","吳思瑤","王義川","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","陳培瑜","沈發惠"],"page_start":259,"meet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我們總統府副秘書長委員好副秘書長好喔說到"},{"start":141.202,"end":169.532,"text":"滲透到我們總統府裡面去全體國人都很關心我相信您今天來這邊一定有所準備其中賴清德副總統辦公室的姿意2023年8月的時候他還有參與有關於副巴拉圭整個行程的事情現在這位吳尚宇被羈押了"},{"start":171.038,"end":180.587,"text":"我要問的第一個問題是請問這位吳尚宇到總統府或者是到副總統辦公室任職的時候有沒有辦理特殊查核"},{"start":182.448,"end":203.901,"text":"據我所知一定要有做一些身家的調查不好意思啊我們在立法院就談法律啦什麼是身家調查我聽不懂啊現在又不是回到以前警總的時代他有沒有辦特殊查核請允許我更精準的回應當時是沒有的他不用辦特殊查核嗎"},{"start":204.701,"end":214.054,"text":"各位委員報告一下因為吳尚宇是聘用之一那聘用之一的話他是一般查核只查雙重國籍跟刑事之一您覺得這樣子的查核密度夠嗎來請副秘書長"},{"start":219.4,"end":242.861,"text":"呃 認為個人認為這是不夠的不夠的嘛那這個制度改革需要多久目前也有聽到委員黃國昌委員您的一些建議跟想法這些建議非常好那我們現在已經要確定要擴大這個場需要多久現在已經在走行政院會選對所以需要多久還不知道這國家安全知識體大"},{"start":244.778,"end":268.625,"text":"怎麼會拖這麼久呢這不是天大地大的事嗎怎麼行政效率這麼差還需要多久這個事情爆發到現在多久啦還在跑行政流程喔國家安全不是很重要嗎用這麼輕忽的態度這麼緩慢的流程在處理國家安全的議題適合嗎"},{"start":272.486,"end":294.806,"text":"跟委員報告的確我們法律一定要法治就如同您在當老師的時候這個程序非常重要法治非常重要是沒錯所以現在不僅僅我們也開始做我只問一個簡單的問題還需要多久所以還需要多久不知道絕對禁訴並且在會禁訴嗎好我們拭目以待看什麼時候禁訴請問吳尚宇什麼時候從總統府離職的"},{"start":299.595,"end":327.086,"text":"這個部分我精準一點的回答是今年的2月19號今年的2月19號他為什麼離職?當時候說好像自行辭職那他的原因是說要回家照顧家人的樣子他2月19號是自行辭職的喔?是他是自行辭職還是被辭職?自行辭職因為他非常的神準啊是邱嗣源、黃曲榮收押進建的時候同案的啦"},{"start":328.595,"end":343.289,"text":"他馬上就辭啦就讓他覺得很奇怪嘛這個時間點啊巧合到讓人不可置信啊兩個同案的被告被收押現在總統府的說法是他自刑請辭不是被辭職嗎是嗎"},{"start":345.731,"end":367.778,"text":"委員我可以表達一下我的意見跟觀察沒有沒有我現在只問事實的問題啦如果他是共諜就要創造最大的殺傷力嗎所以他在幹什麼他在幹什麼如果是共諜的話一定要引爆最大的輿論媒體爆破力所以很明顯的他在幹這些事啊那這些事情他一定要有法律最嚴格的對待那個副秘書長你要發表你的意見你隨時開記者會"},{"start":375.88,"end":399.189,"text":"請你不要佔用我質詢的時間了所以副秘書長 依照你的意見啊這個吳尚宇很可惡啊他要發揮最大的爆炸力所以在2月19號辭職是這樣嗎我現在有點聽不太懂這是我個人的見解沒有關係 我尊重你個人的見解他在總統府任職多久了他在總統府任職多久了他在總統府任職"},{"start":405.98,"end":429.556,"text":"兩年又五個月兩年又五個月 潛伏這麼久總統府都沒有發現任何異樣我想全世界的這些espionage都一樣啦這些都一樣沒有關係啦我只有問你客觀的事實啦就是兩年五個月總統府都沒有發現異樣要離職也是他自己離職不是被離職我想各個國家都面臨一模一樣的挑戰是 請你回答問題就好了啦"},{"start":430.757,"end":448.487,"text":"所以我再確定一次嘛潛伏了兩年五個月總統府都不知道即使到2月19號也是他要自行離職客觀事實是不是這樣我們在其他國家還有潛伏更久的我們都很氣這個沒有關係啦我說你要援引其他國家當立職那個是你的自由啦"},{"start":449.207,"end":467.921,"text":"你去開記者會講就好了我在這邊都只問客觀的事情客觀的事情是潛伏了兩年五個月都沒有發現2月19號他是自行辭職不是被辭職的是不是這樣是的是這樣嘛好沒有關係因為這個事情喔我其實在這個委員會我也公開講過我公開告發了"},{"start":470.717,"end":485.431,"text":"我公開告發了接下來的事情就交給台北地檢署去處理我今天要質詢的第二個議題是嚴肅的議題我們派了一個張教授跑去英國擔任公使"},{"start":486.468,"end":504.357,"text":"你們在派那個公子以前啊有沒有做有關於相關相關人事的查核委員我真的很抱歉喔因為這不是我的業務我可能沒辦法回應那所以這是誰的業務我這個應該是外交部沒有啊這個林佳龍說這是總統任命的啊"},{"start":505.217,"end":521.545,"text":"這是總統的權責啊我們都有相對應的分工但是這個業務是我沒有辦法精準的回應您那今天總統府有人有辦法回應這件事嗎這個部分還是要有外交部會這個人事作業沒有經過總統府一局的部分再拜託一下"},{"start":522.768,"end":550.383,"text":"奇怪 複密你對總統府的職長好像不是很清楚耶任命總統令出來不就是掛賴總統的名字嗎怎麼你當複密對自己總統府的業務職長這麼陌生之前啦 人事令出來以前就已經出來質疑啦學歷造假的人派去英國當公使是要丟台灣的臉嗎"},{"start":552.543,"end":580.997,"text":"是在丟台灣的臉嗎報告委員那個江公使的部分他是用特任公使的身份來任命的所以外交部在這個地方因為他是屬於政務官那依照任用法的規定他不屬於特殊查核的部分但是必要的查核還有剛剛講到一半的查核外交部事先都沒有我只是問一個最簡單的問題"},{"start":582.719,"end":589.39,"text":"這個是牽涉到台灣國家國格的問題啊我們派一個學歷造假的人去英國當公使適合嗎"},{"start":591.255,"end":615.897,"text":"你覺得適合嗎報告委員這件事情科技部國科會有發布新聞稿說明說明什麼說明他學歷是真的他說明是他在登記上跟過去跟他的證書上是有錯誤但是如果從學生寫假的東西說是有錯誤這會不會太可笑啊他自己念啊他自己有沒有念法學他自己不知道"},{"start":618.973,"end":645.828,"text":"他是當事人本人耶那個沒有事實判斷的問題耶他在哪一個學院拿到博士學位他自己不知道這個部分我們尊重這個國科會對外的說明啊對啊 國科會對外的說明就上面寫的東西是假的啊現在我問你的是國家基本立場的問題啊學歷造假還派去英國當公使那不丟人現眼嗎"},{"start":648.683,"end":676.753,"text":"以後我們還要不要跟英國促進學術交流全科技 文化 教育等等的協議派一個學歷造假的人代表台灣台灣是沒人喔委員 這個部分我把意見帶回一定給你一個很快速給你一個交代好不好我直接啊 是複密 是我講話下來有憑有據我一頁頁帶給你看看不下去啦"},{"start":678.151,"end":705.474,"text":"我這兩天接到的檢舉多了他去跟科技部過去的科技部現在的國科會申請計畫的時候他說他個人資料表的主要學歷計畫主持人不願意公開這很奇怪我很少看到大學的教授跟國科會跟科技部申請計畫我作為一個大學的教授我主要學歷我不願意公開"},{"start":708.095,"end":736.448,"text":"這是怎麼回事啊結果他的畢業證書上面明明寫的他是社會科學與健康學院這是他的畢業證書畢業證書寫社會科學與健康學院來看一下他給科技部的個人資料表寫什麼來請複密仔細看南衛學門系所法學院上面就寫法學院"},{"start":737.963,"end":760.359,"text":"這個資料是不是偽造變造的總統府我相信去找國科會來一翻兩瞪眼白紙黑字他明明就不是法學院畢業的在學歷上面寫法學院畢業的就好像我台大法律系畢業的我可以在我學歷上面登載說我是台大醫學系畢業的嗎"},{"start":762.384,"end":781.634,"text":"這怎麼會用錯誤兩個字來形容這根本是造假這是偽造文書啊我當初還是想說Dohan Law SchoolDohan大學是不是沒有Law School我要特別上網去查有Law School但他念的就不是Law School啊"},{"start":783.5,"end":806.857,"text":"這樣學歷造假的人 派去英國當公使丟國家的臉啊報告委員 他送過來的資料 給我們的資料上面不是寫法學對嘛 現在問題就來了嘛現在你應該緊鄰大作啊他為什麼給總統府講一套 給國科會講另外一套是不是被人家揭發了以後 發現別康了趕快更改上面學歷的記載 是這樣嗎"},{"start":808.878,"end":837.155,"text":"這個部分國科會的新聞稿也有說明他當初寫資料後來經過查證之後有請他做個人的更正的部分所以現在問題就來了嘛我把全責跟你講清楚啦國科會的事情請你放心我一定會去國科會追到底當初在學倫大會上面怎麼放水的整個過程我大概都掌握了我一定跟國科會追究到底但問題是什麼"},{"start":838.525,"end":865.712,"text":"從你們任命公使之前客觀的資訊清楚的顯示他就是學歷造假沒什麼好說的不是法學院畢業說是法學院畢業這不是造假什麼是造假如果這樣的人可以當英國公使那以後全台灣的學子在履歷表上面愛怎麼寫就怎麼寫因為我們有個最好的榜樣啦造假都可以當公使"},{"start":869.172,"end":872.993,"text":"這不是有台灣的臉丟到英國去了嗎我有說錯嗎今天複密大意把我的意見帶回去就請帶回去我靜觀我靜觀這件事情接下來要怎麼發展還是說錯了不願意認錯總統的派令都出來了出去就出去了"},{"start":898.66,"end":925.157,"text":"來 請鳳梨講話 因為你舉手沒有話想講 請非常謝謝委員我想總統不可能管到整個台灣沒錯嘛 所以我才說你們人事作業是怎麼做的嘛所以他會有分工嘛市交部 科技部 國科會那現在我們一定會去要求我們一定會去因為畢竟上面掛的是總統府沒錯 你說到重點了所以這個部分我一定把你的意見帶回去該怎麼辦就怎麼辦好 很好謝謝拭目以待 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":849,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（16時12分）謝謝召委，好像現在在司法及法制委員會開始質詢之前，都要先來一段程序上面的發言，我先確認一下，現在國安會秘書長還是拒絕過來，是不是？"],["主席：是，跟黃委員報告，對。"],["黃委員國昌：他有沒有理由？"],["主席：應該是從早上到現在為止，兩位秘書長都沒有給我一通電話。"],["黃委員國昌：OK！剛剛有委員在上面程序發言的時候細數了從陳水扁、馬英九到蔡英文，說國安會之前解凍的時候，副秘書長來就可以了，召委，你知不知道剛點名到的那三位總統，有哪一個總統用的國安會秘書長是把共諜帶到我們府院黨的高層，有這樣的例子嗎？"],["主席：沒有，所以我剛剛有講過去的沒有涉犯共諜案。"],["黃委員國昌：我每一次在這邊質詢的時候，其實我都是針對行政部門，我不太想針對其他的委員，其他的委員在這邊進行不實的政治攻擊，讓人覺得非常非常的遺憾，用委員會珍貴的質詢時間來做這樣子的事情，我只能夠說非常非常的遺憾，一個立法委員連自己基本的職責是什麼都搞不清楚，然後利用站在這邊質詢的時間，對其他的委員發動不實的抹黑、攻擊，讓人覺得非常非常的遺憾。","今天國安會的秘書長還是沒有來，好，總統府的秘書長，你有准假嗎？"],["主席：總統府秘書長我有准假。"],["黃委員國昌：請總統府副秘書長。"],["何副秘書長志偉：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：副秘書長好。共諜滲透到我們總統府裡面去，全體國人都很關心，我相信你今天來這邊一定有所準備，其中賴清德副總統辦公室的諮議2023年8月的時候還有參與有關於赴巴拉圭整個行程的事情，現在這位吳尚雨被羈押了，我要問的第一個問題是，請問這位吳尚雨到總統府或者是到副總統辦公室任職的時候，有沒有辦理特殊查核？"],["何副秘書長志偉：據我所知，一定有做一些身家調查。"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思！我們在立法院就談法律，什麼是身家調查，我聽不懂，現在又不是回到以前警總的時代，他有沒有辦特殊查核？"],["何副秘書長志偉：請允許我更精準的回應，當時候是沒有的。"],["黃委員國昌：他不用辦特殊查核嗎？"],["黃處長新雛：跟委員報告，因為吳尚雨是聘用諮議，聘用諮議是一般查核，只查雙重國籍和刑事資料。"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得這樣子的查核密度夠嗎？請副秘書長。"],["何副秘書長志偉：我個人認為這是不夠的。"],["黃委員國昌：不夠的嘛！這個制度改革需要多久？"],["何副秘書長志偉：目前也有聽到黃國昌委員的一些建議和想法，這些建議非常好，我們現在已經確定要擴大這個查核的對象。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["何副秘書長志偉：現在已經在走行政院會前……"],["黃委員國昌：所以需要多久還不知道？"],["何副秘書長志偉：時間的部分……"],["黃委員國昌：國家安全茲事體大，怎麼會拖這麼久呢？這不是天大地大的事嗎？怎麼行政效率這麼差，還需要多久？"],["何副秘書長志偉：時間的部分，我們到行政院……"],["黃委員國昌：這個事情爆發到現在多久了，還在跑行政流程，國家安全不是很重要嗎？用這麼輕忽的態度、這麼緩慢的流程，在處理國家安全的議題適合嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：跟委員報告，的確，我們法律一定要有法制，就如同您在當老師的時候，這個程序非常重要，法制非常重要。"],["黃委員國昌：是，沒錯。"],["何副秘書長志偉：所以現在我們不僅僅開始擴大查核……"],["黃委員國昌：我只問一個簡單的問題，還需要多久？"],["何副秘書長志偉：該做的東西我們要做，我們絕對儘速。"],["黃委員國昌：所以還需要多久不知道？"],["何副秘書長志偉：絕對儘速，並且在我們手中有效的工具一定……"],["黃委員國昌：會儘速嘛！我們拭目以待，看什麼時候儘速。請問吳尚雨什麼時候從總統府離職的？"],["何副秘書長志偉：這個部分我精準一點的回答是今年的2月19日。"],["黃委員國昌：今年2月19日他為什麼離職？"],["何副秘書長志偉：當時候好像是自行辭職，他的原因是要回家照顧家人的樣子，個人生涯規劃……"],["黃委員國昌：他2月19日是自行辭職的？"],["何副秘書長志偉：是。"],["黃委員國昌：他是自行辭職，還是被辭職？"],["何副秘書長志偉：自行辭職。"],["黃委員國昌：因為他非常的神準，同案的邱世元、黃取榮收押禁見的時候，他馬上就辭了，這讓人家覺得很奇怪，這個時間點巧合到讓人不可置信，兩個同案的被告被收押，現在總統府的說法是他自行請辭，不是被辭職，是嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：委員，我可以表達一下我的意見和觀察嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我現在只問事實的問題。"],["何副秘書長志偉：如果他是共諜就要創造最大的殺傷力，所以他在幹什麼，他在幹什麼，如果是共諜的話一定要引爆最大的輿論、媒體爆破力，所以很明顯的，他在幹這些事啊！所以這些事情一定要有法律最嚴格的對待。"],["黃委員國昌：等一下，先停一下，副秘書長，你要發表你的意見，你隨時開記者會，請你不要占用我質詢的時間。"],["何副秘書長志偉：抱歉！"],["黃委員國昌：所以副秘書長，依照你的意見，這個吳尚雨很可惡，他要發揮最大的爆炸力，所以在2月19日辭職，是這樣嗎？我現在有點聽不太懂。"],["何副秘書長志偉：這是我個人的見解。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我尊重你個人的見解。"],["何副秘書長志偉：我跟委員一樣對共諜絕對不接受，我們的態度是一樣的。"],["黃委員國昌：他在總統府任職多久了？"],["何副秘書長志偉：他在總統府任職2年又5個月。"],["黃委員國昌：2年又5個月潛伏這麼久，總統府都沒有發現任何異樣？"],["何副秘書長志偉：我想全世界的這些espionage都一樣啦！這些都一樣！"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我只有問你客觀的事實，2年5個月總統府都沒有發現異樣，要離職也是他自己離職，不是被離職嘛！"],["何副秘書長志偉：我想各個國家都面臨一模一樣的挑戰，臺灣並沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：請你回答問題就好了。"],["何副秘書長志偉：是。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我再確定一次，潛伏了2年5個月，總統府都不知道，即使到2月19日也是他自行離職，客觀事實是不是這樣？"],["何副秘書長志偉：在其他國家還有潛伏更久的，我們都很氣，我想我跟委員的心情是一樣的，我好氣喔！"],["黃委員國昌：這個沒有關係，你要援引其他國家當例子，那個是你的自由，你去開記者會講就好了，我在這邊都只問客觀的事情，客觀的事情是潛伏了2年5個月都沒有發現，2月19日他是自行辭職，不是被辭職的，是不是這樣？"],["何副秘書長志偉：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：是這樣嘛！好，沒有關係，因為這個事情我其實在這個委員會也公開講過，我公開告發了，接下來的事情就交給臺北地檢署去處理。我今天要質詢的第二個議題是嚴肅的議題，我們派了一個江教授跑去英國擔任公使，你們在派公使以前有沒有做有關於人事的查核？"],["何副秘書長志偉：委員，我真的很抱歉，因為這不是我的業務，我可能沒辦法回應。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這是誰的業務？"],["何副秘書長志偉：這個應該是外交部……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，林佳龍說這是總統任命的，這是總統的權責。"],["何副秘書長志偉：我們都有相對應的分工，但是這個業務我沒有辦法精準地回應您，這個我就沒辦法……"],["黃委員國昌：今天總統府有人有辦法回應這件事嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：這個部分還是要由外交部……"],["黃委員國昌：這個人事作業沒有經過總統府？"],["何副秘書長志偉：一局的部分，再拜託一下。"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪，副秘，你對總統府的職掌……"],["何副秘書長志偉：我們這邊是發布……"],["黃委員國昌：好像不是很清楚耶！"],["何副秘書長志偉：我們是在發布的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：總統令出來不就是掛賴總統的名字嗎？怎麼你當副秘，對自己總統府的業務職掌這麼陌生？之前人事令出來以前就已經出來質疑了，學歷造假的人派去英國當公使，是在丟臺灣的臉嗎？"],["郭局長宏榮：報告委員，江公使的部分，他是用特任公使的身分來任命的，所以外交部在這個地方，因為他是屬於政務官，依照任用法的規定，他不屬於特殊查核的部分，但是必要的查核還有剛剛講到一般的查核，外交部事先都……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我只是問一個最簡單的問題，這個是牽涉到臺灣國家國格的問題，我們派一個學歷造假的人去英國當公使適合嗎？你覺得適合嗎？"],["郭局長宏榮：報告委員，這件事情國科會有發布新聞稿有說明……"],["黃委員國昌：說明什麼？說明說他學歷是真的？"],["郭局長宏榮：它說明是他在登記上跟過去他的證書上是有錯誤，但是如果從學倫……"],["黃委員國昌：寫假的東西說是有錯誤，這會不會太可笑！他自己有沒有念法學院他自己不知道？"],["郭局長宏榮：這個部分後來……"],["黃委員國昌：他是當事人本人耶！沒有事實判斷的問題，他在哪一個學院拿到博士學位他自己不知道？"],["郭局長宏榮：這個部分我們尊重國科會對外的說明。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，國科會對外的說明就上面寫的東西是假的，現在我問你的是國家基本立場的問題，學歷造假還派去英國當公使，那不是丟人現眼嗎？以後我們還要不要跟英國促進學術交流，簽科技、文化、教育等等的協議？派一個學歷造假的人代表臺灣，臺灣是沒人囉？"],["何副秘書長志偉：委員，這個部分我把意見帶回，一定很快速給你一個交代好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：我直接……"],["何副秘書長志偉：是。"],["黃委員國昌：副秘，我講話向來有憑有據，我一頁一頁帶給你看，看不下去啦！我這兩天接到的檢舉多了，他去跟過去的科技部、現在的國科會申請計畫的時候，他說他個人資料表的主要學歷，計畫主持人不願意公開，這很奇怪，我很少看到大學的教授跟國科會、跟科技部申請計畫，我作為一個大學的教授，我主要學歷我不願意公開，這是怎麼回事？結果他的畢業證書上面明明寫他是社會科學與健康學院，這是他的畢業證書，畢業證書寫社會科學與健康學院，來看一下，他給科技部的個人資料表寫什麼？來，請副秘仔細看，欄位：學門系所：法學院。上面就寫法學院，這個資料是不是偽造、變造的？總統府，我相信去找國科會來，一翻兩瞪眼，白紙黑字，他明明就不是法學院畢業的，在學歷上面寫法學院畢業的，就好像我臺大法律系畢業的，我可以在我學歷上面登載說我是臺大醫學系畢業的嗎？這怎麼會用錯誤兩個字來形容？這根本是造假！這是偽造文書，我當初還是想說Durham大學是不是沒有Law School？我還特別上網去查，有Law School，但他念的就不是Law School，這樣學歷造假的人派去英國當公使，丟國家的臉！"],["郭局長宏榮：報告委員，他送過來給我們的資料上面不是寫法學院。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！現在問題就來了，現在你應該警鈴大作，他為什麼給總統府講一套、給國科會講另外一套，是不是被人家揭發了以後，發現「煏空」了，趕快更改上面學歷的記載，是這樣嗎？"],["郭局長宏榮：這個部分國科會的新聞稿也有說明，他當初寫的資料後來經過查證之後，有請他做個人更正的部分，所以……"],["黃委員國昌：對，問題就來了，我把權責跟你講清楚，國科會的事情，請你放心，我一定會去國科會追究到底，當初在學倫大會上面怎麼放水的，整個過程我大概都掌握了，我一定跟國科會追究到底。但問題是什麼？從你們任命公使之前，客觀的資訊清楚地顯示，他就是學歷造假，沒什麼好說的，不是法學院畢業說是法學院畢業，這不是造假，什麼是造假？如果這樣的人可以當英國公使，那以後全臺灣的學子在履歷表上面愛怎麼寫就怎麼寫，因為我們有個最好的榜樣，造假都可以當公使，這不是把臺灣的臉丟到英國去了嗎？我有說錯嗎？今天副秘答應把我的意見帶回去，就請帶回去，我靜觀這件事情接下來要怎麼發展，還是說錯了不願意認錯，總統的派令都出來了，出去就出去了，請副秘講話，因為你舉手，你好像有話想講，請。"],["何副秘書長志偉：非常謝謝委員，我想總統不可能管到整個臺灣每一件所有全部的事情……"],["黃委員國昌：沒錯，所以我才說你們人事作業是怎麼做的嘛！"],["何副秘書長志偉：所以他會有分工嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["何副秘書長志偉：外交部、科技部、國科會，我們一定會去要求，因為畢竟上面掛的是總統府，總統的……"],["黃委員國昌：沒錯，說到重點了。"],["何副秘書長志偉：所以這個部分我一定把你的意見帶回去，該怎麼辦就怎麼辦，好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：好，很好。"],["何副秘書長志偉：以上，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：拭目以待，好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，那我們下一位請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王鴻薇","羅智強","吳思瑤","王義川","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","陳培瑜","沈發惠"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於總統府預算凍結項目共 5案；二、處理114年度中央政府總\n預算關於國家安全會議預算凍結項目共4案","agenda_id":"1145202_00003"}}},{"id":"161782","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161782","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db691b0d1d5f711444e11a54d16b4ae5699762613b50df72fda58ef45d272994b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"15:55:39 - 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四堯好"},{"start":136.33,"end":165.408,"text":"两位辛苦了审预算要合理的监督要理性的审查如果是针对性报复性那么瘫痪了其他宪政机关就是涉及踩到宪法的红线所以说行政院已经针对总预算的二砍二山二动提出了释宪民进党团也已经提出了释宪我们希望宪法法庭能够给予史上前所未见的二砍二山预算做出一个合一的判准"},{"start":165.948,"end":189.952,"text":"好 我們尊重憲法法庭後續的處理那首先呢 我想先就教於這個徐富密喔是總統昨天在520的演說當中其實是釋出了善意也遞出了橄欖枝他表達主動願意分享國安資訊給在野黨的領袖們換言之 希望能夠透過國安的專報"},{"start":193.786,"end":205.893,"text":"很詳實坦率的讓在野黨的領袖知道台灣現在面臨的國安處境是什麼而大家因為資訊對稱了理解了真正了解中國對台灣的處處不友善境外敵對勢力我們需要朝野合力一起來抵禦這是總統的善意我認為也是總統治理國家促進朝野和解的善意"},{"start":221.141,"end":238.663,"text":"但是呢在野黨的黃國昌主席也是我們的黨團總召民眾黨他剛剛我看到他下午的回覆他說他當然很正面的肯定總統願意來釋出國安的這些資訊但是他要求要直播啦"},{"start":241.246,"end":260.78,"text":"如果說國家安全的資訊分享要直播那麼機密就不再機密了所有要坦率的像在野黨主席所報告的國安重要事項可能透過直播都傳達到境外敵對勢力去了"},{"start":263.061,"end":276.355,"text":"當然黃總召他有補充說ok 需要機密的時候可以不直播但是呢朝野領袖在共商國事探討國安資訊的時候至少要直播但是我認為這個會議怎麼切割啊"},{"start":279.13,"end":297.427,"text":"如果說在國安專報的會議分享之後在野黨的主席們領袖們要對外去召開記者會我們尊重嘛但是希望他們不要把國安資訊全部都揭露啊中共最高興啊所以說徐富密你認為"},{"start":299.108,"end":310.242,"text":"要用直播 什麼都直播連國安會議都要直播你覺得可行嗎 因為你們是未來規劃這個跟在野黨領袖報告的幕僚單位啊 可行嗎報告委員 我沒有想到這個任務這麼艱鉅你會習慣的坦白說"},{"start":318.857,"end":344.125,"text":"如果我想總統應該講的當然我們現在正在規劃應該講的包括你的規劃是不可能有直播嘛對不對國防啦兩岸啦國安局的問題啦滲透啦灰色地帶啦這些事情事實上都牽涉到很難向外公開說明的情況如果有公開說明的情況那其實"},{"start":345.445,"end":372.479,"text":"在野黨的委員或者是黨魁們可以直接從媒體上看到不需要專報專報的事情都是一般我們沒辦法對外講的所以特別慎重嘛要特別邀集大家閉門會議嘛我接著再問所以您的意思是你們作為規劃這個像在野黨領袖的國安專報的幕僚機構你們也認為直播反而會讓這個事情破局嘛就搞破壞了嘛"},{"start":373.499,"end":398.753,"text":"是沒有辦法把直播規劃進去的嗎我們沒辦法用直播的方式沒辦法也不應該那剛剛汪小林委員在質詢您的時候說你們國安會去開了很多國際的會議他一樣的邏輯要你把所有的國際會議見了什麼人談了什麼事要全部來清清楚楚的白紙黑字寫給所有的國人看"},{"start":399.753,"end":421.324,"text":"同樣的邏輯 如果國安會進行的這些非常重要的國際的串聯我們就是想方設法要在中國的處處打壓 盯梢之下去 找出一點點空間可是蔡英文黨的委員要你把這些會議去哪裡出訪 開什麼會 見了什麼人 要全部都揭露的話"},{"start":422.544,"end":433.069,"text":"這不是搞破壞嗎 同樣的邏輯那乾脆翁小玲根據黃國昌委員的要求好了以後國安會出去開的任何一個國際會議都要全程直播"},{"start":434.042,"end":437.485,"text":"那樣我們就出不去了就出不去了嘛就搞破壞了嘛所以說拜託在野黨的委員國家安全是什麼國家安全就是我們現在面對的處境有多麼的艱難我們面對的敵人是共同的一個就是境外敵對勢力就是中國"},{"start":457.301,"end":480.237,"text":"所以當總統這麼努力的就是我覺得真的是總統就是想讓這些黨的領袖知道我們現在面對的困境是什麼希望藉由這個國安專報讓他們可以看到事實然後seeing is believing而且去理解它然後去幫助自己的國家而不是搞破壞去幫助其他人"},{"start":482.372,"end":501.467,"text":"如果要求國安專報要直播我覺得這就是搞破局了耶總統遞出了橄欖枝請在野黨的委員不要連橄欖樹都砍了好嗎我真的心很痛耶總統的用心良苦總統的願意資訊分享不是這樣子來被惡搞的"},{"start":506.111,"end":523.135,"text":"來我需要一點時間不好意思主席佔用因為前面幾位委員針對預算也佔用了一點時間回到總統府的預算我認為合理的監督預算就是立法院的職責但是如果是報復性而且你看監察院煽動合併影響了97%"},{"start":526.056,"end":528.558,"text":"行政院煽動合併影響了83%、84%的預算而總統府也前所未見煽動合併刪減凍結了共74%這完全就違反了大法官"},{"start":542.83,"end":562.163,"text":"391520號的解釋因為你利用預算的審查去讓其他的憲法機關沒有辦法擅盡他們的憲政忠誠義務但非常遺憾就是我們現在面對的總統府今天很辛苦我第一次看到你們的解動報告厚厚的寫了55頁下一頁下一頁"},{"start":568.411,"end":595.98,"text":"這是前所未見的過去15年來不論藍綠誰執政不論立法院誰當家過去15年來平均凍結預算因為我們今天在解凍預算我就整理凍結預算平均凍結預算過去15年每年平均凍396萬今年凍了多少2.14億嘛對不對何富密所以今年的凍結是過去的54倍這前所未見嘛對不對何富密好下一頁"},{"start":597.6,"end":619.409,"text":"而凍結當中又鎖定業務費業務費被凍了96%而且設下前所未有的解凍門檻就是你們先執行了30%然後呢 再去申請解凍還要經過立法院院會的同意這也是前所未有的解凍門檻嘛對不對 何副秘好 那在下一頁"},{"start":622.45,"end":639.881,"text":"而且預算是不能留用的 不能挖東牆補西牆所以你們現在是不是只剩下9176萬左右 是不是 是能撐到年底嗎就是總體預算被煽動之後 能夠用的只有9000多萬"},{"start":640.842,"end":655.933,"text":"能撐到年底嗎我們現在很緊張也很痛苦剛剛有特別講到阿兵哥的部分那也不可能天天吃沙拉嘛我們就來講阿兵哥這一條好了你們被凍結的是廚師費嘛是憲兵的伙食費"},{"start":656.974,"end":677.446,"text":"是保留的嘛 國防部的嘛那是兩邊嘛 國防部編有限兵的伙食費但是編在總統府的是這個膳食費是廚師的費用換言之沒有廚師了誰煮飯給阿兵哥是要叫阿兵哥叫Uber嗎剛剛翁委員居然讓我聽到他說阿兵哥沒有廚師煮飯去叫Uber哇"},{"start":680.97,"end":697.353,"text":"有可能總統府的憲兵叫Uber嗎?私家委員 我跟您報告因為是元首的維安是啊所以天天吃外食那個一定會出事安全的疑慮食品衛生安全的疑慮這是基本的ABC嘛委員專業 謝謝"},{"start":698.334,"end":709.664,"text":"所以說 伙食費是編在國防部 伙食費就算有 可是你廚師被砍掉了就像在野黨的委員一樣在司法法治委員會砍掉了監察院97%的業務費 包括他的油錢所以監察院是有司機的 可是他是剛好油錢沒了"},{"start":718.308,"end":732.094,"text":"被砍掉了所以空有司機沒有油錢現在監委如果要用司機去查案妨礙要自己出油錢同樣的道理這實在是太可異了下一頁報復性的刪減總統的法定義務會受到很多的影響下一頁"},{"start":740.607,"end":746.609,"text":"總統府要進入黑暗的時代了嗎總統府的夜間電費已經暫停了水電費是不是剩下65萬可以用是的怎麼撐到年底在兩個禮拜就沒有錢繳水電費了是前所未見下一頁"},{"start":757.428,"end":772.373,"text":"總統的重要慶典的舉辦費剩下453萬很難再辦大規模的重要慶典了 對不對下一頁我知道總統不是總統我把那個那個召集人說成總統那個您站起來我會加快是資訊服務費我們"},{"start":777.714,"end":792.757,"text":"113年每個月平均有700萬次的駭客攻擊而且全年啊遭受這個DDoS的重大攻擊10次以上現在呢資安費用只砍到只有1627萬可以用喔可以撐到年底嗎資安會漏洞門戶大開嗎這是中國最高興的現在趕快來駭客攻擊了來最後下面一樣喔總統府是1919年蓋的"},{"start":806.38,"end":830.088,"text":"古蹟啊 國定古蹟啊依照文資法 古蹟要定期的修繕維護但是你們的修繕維護的房屋建築費用只剩下1840萬可以撐到年底嗎?司堯委員是文化的專業我們現在都很辛苦而且他需要符合文資法所以要執行起來真的很困難不要讓總統府帶頭違反文資法"},{"start":834.87,"end":856.544,"text":"因為呢房屋修繕養護費被35%動70%所以沒有辦法致用總統府這個文化資產不論誰當選總統未來也有可能吳宗憲在裡面工作擔任重要的職務羅志強就曾經在這一棟國定古蹟總統府裡面任職服務過"},{"start":858.021,"end":881.45,"text":"文化資產保存法我來自文化界不要讓總統府沒有預算去修復維護文化資產我後面還很多頁沒有辦法來論述我希望在野黨的委員趕快把預算解凍總統府是國家的總統府不是賴清德的總統府是全民的總統府我們一起來為預算努力謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":779,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（15時55分）謝謝主席，在我進入詢答之前，早上有一些資訊可能要更新一下，早上我們花了一些時間在程序上作意見的交換，我列舉出馬英九前總統任內在處理國安會的預算解凍時，有三度都是由葛光越副秘書長、陸小榮副秘書長來出席代理，那個時候立法院都准假，我早上提的是馬英九前總統任內，我現在要補充，因為中午休息的時間又去找了比較多的資料，其實從過去李登輝總統、陳水扁總統、馬英九總統到蔡英文總統，共有19次立法院審查預算、決算乃至於解凍預算，都是由副秘書長出席。當然，如果秘書長公務時間安排得當，當然秘書長可以來參與預算的審查和討論，我們當然都至表歡迎，而且依法定的義務，他能來他就要來，但是從李登輝、陳水扁、馬英九到蔡英文總統，由副秘書長出席各類的預算會議共有19次，所以不要特別對吳釗燮秘書長今天因為主席不准假就戴他帽子、為難他、修理他，我覺得這都失之公允，所以我要做適時的補充陳述，只可惜我們召委在講電話，沒有聽到我這段，沒有關係，有直播可以回復，可以讓召委好好的來詳加去核對，吳思瑤所說的樣樣項項都是符合事實和真相。","進入我的質詢，我請兩位副秘。"],["何副秘書長志偉：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：兩位辛苦了。審預算要合理的監督、要理性的審查，如果是針對性、報復性癱瘓了其他憲政機關，就是涉及踩到憲法的紅線，所以行政院已經針對總預算的惡砍、惡刪、惡凍提出了釋憲，民進黨團也已經提出釋憲，我們希望憲法法庭能夠給予史上前所未見惡砍惡刪預算作出一個合宜的判準，我們尊重憲法法庭後續的處理。","首先，我想就教於徐副秘，總統昨天在520的演說中，其實釋出了善意，也遞出了橄欖枝，他表達主動願意分享國安資訊給在野黨的領袖們，換言之，希望能夠透過國安的專報，很詳實坦率的讓在野黨領袖知道臺灣現在面臨的國安處境是什麼，而大家因為資訊對稱了、理解了、真正了解中國對臺灣的處處不友善，境外敵對勢力需要朝野合力一起來抵禦，這是總統的善意，我認為也是總統治理國家、促進朝野和解的善意。但是在野黨的黃國昌主席，也是民眾黨的黨團總召，我看到他下午的回復，他說他當然很正面的肯定總統願意來釋出國安的資訊，但是他要求要直播，如果國家安全的資訊分享要直播，那麼機密就不再機密了，所有要坦率地向在野黨主席所報告的國安重要事項，可能透過直播都傳達到境外敵對勢力去了。當然黃總召有補充說，OK，需要機密的時候可以不直播，但是朝野領袖在共商國是、探討國安資訊的時候至少要直播，可是我認為這個會議怎麼切割啊？如果在國安專報的會議分享之後，在野黨的主席們、領袖們要對外去召開記者會，我們尊重，但是希望他們不要把國安資訊全部都揭露，中共最高興啊！所以徐副秘認為要用直播，什麼都直播，連國安會議都要直播，你覺得可行嗎？因為你們是未來規劃跟在野黨領袖報告的幕僚單位，可行嗎？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：報告委員，我沒有想到這個任務這麼艱巨。"],["吳委員思瑤：你會習慣的。"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：坦白說，當然我們現在正在規劃，我想總統應該講的包括……"],["吳委員思瑤：你的規劃是不可能有直播，對不對？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：包括國防、兩岸、國安局的問題、滲透、灰色地帶，這些事情事實上都牽涉到很難向外公開說明的情況，如果有公開說明的情況，其實在野黨委員或者是黨魁們可以直接從媒體上看到，不需要專報，專報的事情都是一般我們沒辦法對外講的。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以特別慎重，要特別邀集大家閉門會議嘛！"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：我接著再問，所以您的意思是，你們作為規劃在野黨領袖國安專報的幕僚機構，你們也認為直播反而會讓這個事情破局，就搞破壞了嘛！是沒有辦法把直播規劃進去的嘛！"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：我們沒辦法用直播的方式。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，這沒辦法，也不應該。剛剛翁曉玲委員在質詢您的時候說國安會去開了很多國際的會議，他用一樣的邏輯要你把所有在國際會議上見了什麼人、談了什麼事全部清清楚楚、白紙黑字地寫給所有國人看。同樣的邏輯，如果國安會進行這些非常重要的國際串聯，我們就是想方設法要在中國的處處打壓、盯梢之下去找出一點點空間，可是在野黨的委員要你把這些會議去哪裡出訪、開什麼會、見了什麼人全部都揭露的話，這不是搞破壞嗎？同樣的邏輯，那乾脆翁曉玲跟進黃國昌委員的要求好了，以後國安會出去開的任何一個國際會議都要全程直播。"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：那樣我們就出不去了。"],["吳委員思瑤：就出不去了嘛！就搞破壞了嘛！所以拜託在野黨的委員，國家安全是什麼？國家安全就是我們現在面對的處境有多麼的艱難，我們面對的敵人是共同的一個，就是境外敵對勢力──中國。當總統這麼努力的，就是想讓在野黨的領袖知道我們現在面對的困境是什麼，希望藉由這個國安專報讓他們可以看到事實，然後seeing is believing，而且去理解他，繼而去幫助自己的國家，而不是搞破壞，去幫助其他人。如果要求國安專報要直播，我覺得這就是搞破局了耶！總統遞出了橄欖枝，請在野黨的委員不要連橄欖樹都砍了，好嗎？我真的心很痛，總統的用心良苦、總統的願意資訊分享不是這樣子來被惡搞的。","我需要一點時間，不好意思主席，因為前面幾位委員針對預算也占用了一點時間。回到總統府的預算，我認為合理的監督預算就是立法院的職責，但如果是報復性，而且你看監察院刪凍合併影響了97%，行政院刪凍合併影響了84%的預算，而總統府也前所未見，刪減、凍結了共74%，這完全違反了大法官釋字第391號及第520號的解釋，因為你利用預算的審查讓其他的憲法機關沒有辦法善盡他們的憲政忠誠義務，但非常遺憾，這是我們現在面對的。總統府今天很辛苦，我第一次看到你們的解凍報告厚厚地寫了55頁。","這是前所未見的，過去15年來不論藍綠誰執政、不論立法院誰當家，因為我們今天在解凍預算，我就整理凍結預算的部分，過去15年每年平均凍396萬，今年凍了多少？2.14億對不對，何副秘？"],["何副秘書長志偉：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：今年的凍結數是過去的54倍，這前所未見對不對，何副秘？"],["何副秘書長志偉：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：而凍結當中又鎖定業務費，被凍了96%，而且設下前所未有的解凍門檻，就是你們先執行30%，然後再去申請解凍，還要經過立法院院會的同意，這也是前所未有的解凍門檻對不對，何副秘？"],["何副秘書長志偉：是的，委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：而且預算是不能流用的，不能挖東牆補西牆，你們現在是不是只剩下9,176萬左右？"],["何副秘書長志偉：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：能撐到年底嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：總體預算被刪凍之後，能夠用的只有九千多萬。"],["吳委員思瑤：能撐到年底嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：我們現在很緊張也很痛苦，剛剛有特別講到阿兵哥的部分，他們也不可能天天吃沙拉吧！"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我們就來講阿兵哥這一條好了，你們被凍結的是廚師費，憲兵的伙食費是保留的，國防部的嘛？"],["何副秘書長志偉：那兩邊是……"],["吳委員思瑤：是兩邊，國防部編有憲兵的伙食費，但是編在總統府的膳食費是廚師的費用，換言之，沒有廚師了，誰煮飯給阿兵哥？是要阿兵哥叫Uber嗎？剛剛翁委員居然讓我聽到他說阿兵哥沒有廚師煮飯就去叫Uber，哇！有可能總統府的憲兵叫Uber嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：思瑤委員，我跟您報告，因為是元首的維安……"],["吳委員思瑤：是啊！"],["何副秘書長志偉：所以天天吃外食，那個一定會出事。"],["吳委員思瑤：安全的疑慮、食品衛生安全的疑慮，這就是基本的ABC嘛！"],["何副秘書長志偉：委員專業，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：伙食費是編在國防部，伙食費就算有，可是廚師費被砍掉了，就像在野黨的委員一樣在司法及法制委員會砍掉了監察院97%的業務費，包括他們的油錢，監察院是有司機的，可是他們是剛好油錢沒了、被砍掉了，所以空有司機卻沒有油錢，現在監委如果要用司機去查案反而要自己出油錢。"],["何副秘書長志偉：是的。"],["吳委員思瑤：同樣的道理，這實在是太可議了！報復性的刪減，總統府的法定義務會受到很多的影響，總統府要進入黑暗時代了嗎？總統府的夜間電費已經暫停了，水電費是不是剩下65萬可以用？"],["何副秘書長志偉：是的，我們到……"],["吳委員思瑤：怎麼撐到年底？"],["何副秘書長志偉：再兩個禮拜就沒有錢繳水電費了。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，前所未見。總統府重要慶典的舉辦費剩下453萬，很難再辦大規模的重要慶典了，對不對？"],["何副秘書長志偉：是的。"],["吳委員思瑤：召集人站起來了，我會加快。關於資訊服務費，113年每個月平均有700萬次的駭客攻擊，而且全年遭受DDoS的重大攻擊10次以上，現在資安費用砍到只有1,627萬可以用，可以撐到年底嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：我們已經在開始……"],["吳委員思瑤：資安會有漏洞、門戶大開嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：很危險。"],["吳委員思瑤：這是中國最高興的，現在趕快來駭客攻擊了。"],["何副秘書長志偉：要拜託委員支持。"],["吳委員思瑤：一樣，總統府是1919年蓋的國定古蹟，依照文資法，古蹟要定期修繕維護，但是你們修繕維護的房屋建築費用只剩下1,840萬，可以撐到年底嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：思瑤委員是文化的專業，我們現在都很辛苦，而且需要符合文資法……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以呢？"],["何副秘書長志偉：這一塊執行起來真的很困難。"],["吳委員思瑤：不要讓總統府帶頭違反文資法，因為房屋修繕養護費被刪5%、凍70%，所以沒有辦法支用。總統府這個文化資產，不論誰當選總統，未來也有可能吳宗憲在裡面工作，擔任重要的職務，羅智強就曾經在這一棟國定古蹟總統府裡面任職服務過，文化資產保存法，我來自文化界，不要讓總統府沒有預算去修復、維護文化資產。我後面還有很多頁沒有辦法來論述，我希望在野黨的委員趕快把預算解凍，總統府是國家的，總統府不是賴清德的，總統府是全民的總統府，我們一起來為預算努力，謝謝。"],["何副秘書長志偉：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","我這邊也跟吳委員報告，剛剛吳委員有提到馬英九時代都是副秘書長，這個我沒有意見。讓我把話講完，先不要插嘴。"],["吳委員思瑤：我剛剛講的……"],["主席：我知道，所以我剛剛說這個我認同，我沒意見。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝。"],["主席：但是因為馬英九時代的國安會秘書長，他身邊的人沒有涉及共諜案，所以我們認為還是有所差別。"],["吳委員思瑤：報告召委，現在的國安會不是共諜，那個是他外交部的時候，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：先讓我把話講完，不要插我們的話，讓我把話講完，所以我要說明，因為你對我有這個質疑，我的說明就是這是在其他時候，但他身邊的重要人員、甚至排行程的人員有涉及共諜案，這個在過往馬英九時代並沒有發生，但剛剛吳委員所提出來的，馬英九時代那些副秘書長來的次數，我都沒有意見，我都予以認同，但是畢竟現在跟以前的狀況不太一樣，所以我們才希望秘書長能夠到場，並不是找他麻煩。"],["吳委員思瑤：我剛剛講的不是只有馬英九，從李登輝、陳水扁、馬英九、蔡英文……"],["主席：對，但是他們都沒有……"],["吳委員思瑤：總共有19次……"],["主席：但是他們身邊的人都沒有涉及共諜案，我的重點還是劃在他身邊的重要人員有沒有涉及共諜案，因為國安會是掌握我國國家安全非常重要的單位，所以我們希望很慎重的面對這件事，也要替國人監督好這件事，這就是為什麼我希望他要來的原因，並不是像大家說的，什麼我把他扣帽子，是沒有的，請大家能夠瞭解一下。謝謝吳委員提供給我的資料。","接下來請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王鴻薇","羅智強","吳思瑤","王義川","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","陳培瑜","沈發惠"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於總統府預算凍結項目共 5案；二、處理114年度中央政府總\n預算關於國家安全會議預算凍結項目共4案","agenda_id":"1145202_00003"}}},{"id":"161781","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161781","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db57daaa1681bbe7a9e11a54d16b4ae569f45a94dd28b54b3874a0a456827cbec75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"15:41:30 - 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謝謝主席喔 語重心長的嘆息因為剛剛聽到了非常多不實的訊息我想要逐一來跟國安會還有和複密這邊澄清 謝謝所以要請兩位一起兩位複密署長給我給我給我好好"},{"start":30.816,"end":53.203,"text":"兩位辛苦了我想我們今天之所以還要在這邊今天已經五月底了我們還要在這邊認真來討論預算解凍案事出必有因那我想這個因就是來自於在去年二輪預算提出來的時候藍白共同提出三四千案我們認為極度不合理的預算甚至沒有專業考慮沒有專業的討論"},{"start":56.064,"end":71.854,"text":"通常在本委我們要提出預算的時候一定是基於我們在這整個委員會對相關機關部會業務的理解我們提出一個立法委員該行的職權我們進行監督進行討論所以我們透過預算這是一個手段跟方法對嗎兩位"},{"start":73.671,"end":88.678,"text":"那過去像這樣子的監督機制有遇到像今年這麼大的困難嗎可不可以分享一下那也許國安會這邊比較資深你要不要分享一下今年算不算是一種史無前例的荒謬的亂象"},{"start":90.714,"end":105.185,"text":"今年相對於過去若干年是比較困難比較困難好 您講得非常保守我直接說是荒謬跟亂象我過去在教育文化委員會我們每一個人基於自己的專業跟理解我們在第一輪負責任的提出我們的預算案然後我們認真的討論"},{"start":108.727,"end":128.657,"text":"最後藍白還有民進黨會做出默契也就是朝野對於相關預算跟業務的推廣是有一定的默契到了二輪提案的時候通常各個委員辦公室都是因為可能時間來不及啦或者是可能之前沒有想到大家再補題這是過往的案例那當然我們來立法院的資歷比較淺才來兩年但是這兩年或者是我們參考過去非常多優秀專業的立法委員的提案我們發現比較是這個狀況"},{"start":137.902,"end":152.37,"text":"所以我才說雖然我才來兩年但是我認為目前在今年也就是他們去年藍白提出來荒謬二輪的超過三四千案的預算提案是荒謬的這是我個人的見解剛剛還有非常多委員也問了我覺得很荒謬的問題第一個他請問何富密說我們的賴總統到三峽的現場去勘栽的時候沒有接受訪問然後第一時間表達關心我們很謝謝賴總統做出這個動作"},{"start":167.219,"end":173.92,"text":"但是他剛剛一直問說為什麼總統沒有捐款總統的薪水有多少然後總統為什麼沒有捐款"},{"start":175.379,"end":204.064,"text":"我不知道這樣的問題意義何在那如果真的要認真追究捐款這件事情我想我就先問馬英九總統任內當時他標榜要達到633他還說如果沒有達到633他要捐出薪水的一半但事後他自己承認並沒有捐出來那是不是我們也可以問這個事情那當然這個事過境遷也不關何複銘您的事情如果真的要追究賴清德總統有沒有捐款呢網路上有人幫忙整理我今天就來分享一兩個"},{"start":205.814,"end":213.562,"text":"以我以關心兒少的角度來看2018年2月9號台南家福中心頒助獎學金賴清的總統當時捐助了獎學金超過500萬其中有100萬是選舉補助款2018年3月12號學甲伯利恆藻寮教育中心落成賴清的總統捐了500萬也是來自選舉補助款"},{"start":227.156,"end":247.596,"text":"2021年4月5號捐助台鐵事故傷亡者當時蔡英文總統賴清德副總統蘇貞昌院長捐一個月所得2021年10月15號寄助陳忠誠災戶蔡英文總統賴清德副總統陳其邁等捐出一個月的薪水所得這只是我剛剛舉的其中一些些例子"},{"start":248.357,"end":256.042,"text":"我並不是要請何鳳敏把這個訊息帶回去請總統再捐款我想在委員在質詢台上必須要負責任對自己的言論負責而我認為剛剛有非常多在野黨的委員一再的造謠抹黑那導致於我們必須要浪費我們自己的質詢時間但我認為正確資訊傳達是非常非常重要的"},{"start":270.59,"end":281.096,"text":"每一個人要不要捐款是出自於自己的決定自己的選擇但在公開的質詢台上造謠賴清德總統沒有捐款這件事情我認為大可不必喔"},{"start":281.954,"end":306.219,"text":"好 那我們來看一下如果要來看相關預算我認為我們不如實質的來看你們在這麼困難的預算執行情況下還是有非常多事情需要你們在業務推廣上不斷前進不是嗎你們並沒有因為如此就不去上班然後或者是坐在那邊什麼事都沒做不是嗎對 那我們來看一下而且還有很多國人關心的問題我想我要先謝謝你們一再的努力"},{"start":310.066,"end":321.201,"text":"而且我要再次強調今天這一切的亂象預算的亂象今天之所以還要站在這邊真的是因為莫名其妙荒謬的二輪預算提案不問專業好 第一個"},{"start":324.844,"end":340.34,"text":"你看每次發生事情你們就會被叫來罵對不對像我今天沒有要罵你們啦我要跟你們討論喔終極人士在中小學門口直播這件事情我們非常謝謝警政署在第一時間他們去調查相關個案那他給了我一個說法說"},{"start":341.821,"end":369.788,"text":"違反個資法 違反妨害秘密罪還有違反兒少權法非常謝謝警政署的同仁在預算也有困難的情況下依然努力工作那我想要請問國安會就國安的角度我們可不可以告訴國人在相關的疑慮情況下我們應該要注意什麼樣的事情因為確實在社群裡面不管是家長不管是老師其實很多大人都非常的擔心那這個在"},{"start":370.808,"end":382.295,"text":"警政署這段問題已經解決了但是如果我們回到我們去看中國的很多社群你按相關關鍵字滿滿的影片我們真的還是很擔心我想要請國安會給我們一些說明好不好"},{"start":383.477,"end":404.618,"text":"報告委員 我想這樣的事情我們當然是非常關切我想除了因為警政單位他們主要是接受報案我覺得我們國人自己要提高警覺包括家長跟學校方面如果看到甚至一般的民眾我有朋友今天就去檢舉"},{"start":405.999,"end":415.285,"text":"他昨天就在學校門口 看到可疑的人是 他們還坐在學校附近的人行道上面甚至今天可能都還在進行"},{"start":421.869,"end":451.034,"text":"你覺得可以檢舉 我們可以向派出所先檢舉是 是我的朋友檢舉以後 那我們國安會這邊那個警察都非常負責的問得很詳細 是所以我相信我們警政單位已經非常嚴肅的面對這件事情好 那接下來就國安的角度我們還要注意什麼事情我想我們國安局以及其他的那個相關國安的單位他們會彼此交換訊息然後深入的調查這群人的背景"},{"start":452.659,"end":470.654,"text":"我想背景的調查當然很重要那另外一個新聞我們來看一下中國人橡皮艇登台事件頻繁國安破口如何解目前為止到底他是居住在台灣的中國人還是他真的是駕著這個橡皮艇成功登台的目前都還是一個問號但是確實我們還是擔心相關的國安破口"},{"start":475.478,"end":495.172,"text":"那甚至我們也擔心這個模式在金門跟馬祖在近期在台灣的數量也越來越多有沒有可能是認知作戰還有所謂的揮帶襲擾那在金門跟馬祖因為過往金門跟馬祖相對於中國或者是他們的立法委員對於中國是相對友善的可能對於相關的認知作戰或所謂的揮帶襲擾他們不見得跟我們有一樣程度的認知但我認為這件事情都還是值得討論"},{"start":502.657,"end":507.984,"text":"可是回到台灣本島我們來看這件事情國安單位可不可以給我們一些建議或者是你們後續將會如何處理相關的事情"},{"start":511.771,"end":533.171,"text":"這個問題的話分兩個部分首先不論是本島還是外島我們國安單位都認為我們都把它看作是灰色洗腦的一部分這個已經非常確定那當然海巡署跟海委會也表示我們的這個偵測系統可能是有些不足"},{"start":533.812,"end":544.063,"text":"那我知道海委會已經向行政院提出海空一體295億的一個預算裡面有強化各方面次世代雷達紅外線熱像儀環島監視系統等等"},{"start":549.809,"end":563.345,"text":"這個強調要強化我們ISR系統的這個各種各樣的設備但是可能是需要一點時間來建構但是我們已經充分認識到我們要強化我們的海岸巡防的系統"},{"start":564.566,"end":585.913,"text":"這個部分謝謝您的回覆我想後續國人的關心國人的焦慮或者是立法院這邊監督都會持續非常非常重要雖然你們在預算很困難的情況下最後我想跟你分享一個是從我們辦公室收集到的另外一個我們認為有高度國安疑慮的個案但我們很擔心它日後會成為通案來往下"},{"start":587.193,"end":611.838,"text":"在2022年當時呢直蘭高雄鋼鐵人發現有港資那當時陸委會做了非常積極的處理因為我們認為有國安疑慮那這個部分當然要給2022年的陸委會高度的肯定但是我想要跟兩位分享目前中國在全世界對於運動的滲透其實最簡單的第一步就是開始買球隊來下一張開始買球隊例如說海外足球隊"},{"start":615.979,"end":632.067,"text":"非常有名的英超、西甲、普甲、易甲都有甚至在NBA裡面也已經買球隊了買球隊之後可以做非常非常多的事情我今天時間有限不再贅述下一張但是回到台灣我們收到了一個陳情在2024年我們辦公室已經積極處理了"},{"start":634.628,"end":662.668,"text":"也就是台中的國立台灣體育運動大學有一個學校的球隊他們可以參加台灣以及足球聯賽他們把這個參賽資格轉讓給一間公司叫峰會體育有限公司看起來這個公司如果你去經濟部網站上查看不太出來什麼問題但是往下看我們跟教育部當然已經討論過教育部相關業務也在進行當中下一張那我們來看一下"},{"start":664.656,"end":682.569,"text":"目前呢國外的俱樂部或者是參賽權利的收購或是轉讓在民間其實是所謂的商業行為可是中華足協足球聯賽是FIFA它是亞足聯系統賽事重點在後面這句話這些球隊它可以代表台灣參加國際賽"},{"start":684.79,"end":697.959,"text":"可是如果這些球隊背後的經營主或者是擁有這個球隊的老闆甚至這個球隊他就只是學校的球隊的參賽權他竟然背後是中資跟港資這有沒有國安疑慮"},{"start":699.687,"end":714.101,"text":"好 我們往下看 再下一張好 再下一張我要說的是 其實不是只有足球 包含排球在台灣由單項協會所主辦的企業聯賽也都可以代表台灣參加國際組織的體育賽事代表台灣出隊"},{"start":719.827,"end":734.441,"text":"所以我想要請教一下就國安的角度來說當然後續這家公司我們再去追查發現所謂峰會體育有限公司它的負責人是另外一家公司的董事跟發言人而這一家公司背後就是中資跟港資"},{"start":735.322,"end":760.674,"text":"所以如果我們連連看會發現他確實有所謂的國安疑慮而這個球隊目前的參賽權已經賣出去了當然教育部那邊或者是監察院這邊他們都有相關調查在進行但是我要把相關這個個案跟國安會討論如果未來在台灣也開始發生中國在海外買球隊的狀況他開始進到台灣來做這個操作你們怎麼看"},{"start":762.97,"end":788.369,"text":"報告委員這件事情當然是很嚴重尤其是代表我們國家去參加國際比賽那如果背後有中資港資我想當然是對我們國家利益不好所以這件事情我想我們會帶回去跟行政院包括教育部還有行政院這邊一起來協調開會以及國安局我們來研究一下應該怎麼樣去防堵這樣的事情發生"},{"start":788.629,"end":810.211,"text":"好 我也跟您說 它除了代表台灣出事案之外 它其實有另外一個疑慮假設我背後是中資港資 我在台灣甕有一個球隊我有了這個球隊的名義 我可能就可以去投標或是承包某些場地的經營權我舉一個例子 剛剛這個學校是在台中 而台中在明後年就會落成一個足球園區"},{"start":811.252,"end":830.545,"text":"而這個足球園區如果真的被這個球隊拿去做經營做場地的經營跟空間我們很難想像背後中資跟港資會如何透過這個身份做出一些滲透跟我們認為灰色襲擾的部分所以我才要把這個看起來是個案但很有可能未來變成通案的狀況跟國安會先行討論好嗎"},{"start":833.287,"end":840.853,"text":"謝謝委員指教好謝謝你們當然希望今天後續的預算解凍跟討論可以順利的進行讓你們可以回去好好上班好謝謝兩位謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（15時41分）好，謝謝主席。語重心長地嘆氣，因為剛剛聽到非常多不實的訊息，我想要逐一來跟國安會還有何副秘這邊澄清，謝謝。"],["主席：所以要請他們兩位？"],["陳委員培瑜：兩位一起。"],["主席：兩位副秘書長。"],["何副秘書長志偉：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：兩位辛苦了。今天已經五月底了，而我們之所以還要在這邊認真來討論預算解凍案，事出必有因，我想這個因就是來自於在去年二輪預算提出來的時候，藍白共同提出3,000、4,000案我們認為極度不合理的預算，甚至沒有專業考慮、沒有專業的討論。通常在本委員會我們要提出預算的時候，一定是基於我們在這整個委員會對相關機關、部會業務的理解，我們提出一個立法委員該行的職權，我們進行監督、進行討論。所以我們透過預算，這是一個手段跟方法，對嗎？請問兩位。"],["何副秘書長志偉：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：過去像這樣子的監督機制，有遇到像今年這麼大的困難嗎？可不可以分享一下？也許國安會這邊比較資深，你要不要分享一下今年算不算是一種史無前例的、荒謬的亂象？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：今年相對於過去若干年，是比較困難。"],["陳委員培瑜：比較困難？您講的非常保守，我直接說是荒謬跟亂象。我過去在教育文化委員會，我們每一個人基於自己的專業跟理解，在第一輪負責任地提出我們的預算案，然後我們認真地討論，最後藍白還有民進黨會做出默契，也就是朝野對於相關預算跟業務的推廣是有一定的默契。到了二輪提案的時候，通常各個委員辦公室都是因為可能時間來不及啦！或者是可能之前沒有想到，大家再補提。這是過往的案例。當然我來立法院的資歷比較淺，才來兩年，但是我們也參考過去非常多優秀、專業的立法委員的提案，我們發現比較是這個狀況。所以我才說，雖然我才來兩年，但是我認為目前在今年，也就是他們去年藍白提出來二輪超過三、四千案的預算提案是荒謬的，這是我個人的見解。","剛剛還有非常多委員也問了我覺得很荒謬的問題。第一個，他請問何副秘說我們的賴總統到三峽的現場去勘災的時候沒有接受訪問，然後第一時間表達關心。我們很謝謝賴總統做出這個動作。但是他剛剛一直問說為什麼總統沒有捐款、總統的薪水有多少，然後總統為什麼沒有捐款，我不知道這樣的問題意義何在。","如果真的要認真追究捐款這件事情，我就先問，在馬英九總統任內，當時他標榜要達到633，他還說如果沒有達到633，他要捐出薪水的一半，但事後他自己承認並沒有捐出來。那是不是我們也可以問這個事情？當然這個事過境遷，也不關何副秘您的事情。如果真的要追究賴清德總統有沒有捐款，網路上有人幫忙整理，我今天就來分享一、兩個。","以我從關心兒少角度來看，2018年2月9號臺南家扶中心頒助獎學金，賴清德總統當時捐助了獎學金超過500萬，其中有100萬是選舉補助款。2018年3月12號學甲伯利恆早療教育中心落成，賴清德總統捐了500萬，也是來自選舉補助款。2021年4月5號捐助台鐵事故傷亡者，當時蔡英文總統、賴清德副總統、蘇貞昌院長捐一個月所得。2021年10月15號濟助城中城災戶，蔡英文總統、賴清德副總統、陳其邁等捐出一個月的薪水所得。","這只是我剛剛舉的其中一些些例子，我並不是要請何副秘把這個訊息帶回去請總統再捐款。我想委員在質詢台上必須要負責任，對自己的言論負責，而我認為剛剛有非常多在野黨的委員一再地造謠抹黑，導致於我們必須要浪費自己的質詢時間，但我認為正確資訊傳達是非常非常重要的。每一個人要不要捐款是出自於自己的決定、自己的選擇，但在公開的質詢台上造謠賴清德總統沒有捐款這件事情，我認為大可不必。","好，我們來看一下。如果要來看相關預算，我認為我們不如實質地來看你們在這麼困難的預算執行情況下，還是有非常多事情需要你們在業務推廣上不斷前進，不是嗎？你們並沒有因為如此就不去上班，或者是坐在那邊什麼事都沒做，不是嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，還有很多國人關心的問題，我想我要先謝謝你們一再地努力。而且我要再次強調，今天這一切預算的亂象，今天之所以還要站在這邊，真的是因為莫名其妙、荒謬的二輪預算提案，不問專業。你看！每次發生事情，你們就會被叫來罵，對不對？我今天沒有要罵你們啦！我要跟你們討論。","第一個，中籍人士在中小學門口直播。這件事情我們非常謝謝警政署在第一時間去調查相關個案，它給了我一個說法，就是違反個資法、違反妨害秘密罪，還有違反兒少權法。非常謝謝警政署的同仁在預算也有困難的情況下，依然努力工作。","我想要請問國安會，就國安的角度，我們可不可以告訴國人，在相關的疑慮情況下，我們應該要注意什麼樣的事情？因為確實在社群裡面，不管是家長，不管是老師，其實很多大人都非常地擔心。這個在警政署這段問題已經解決了，但是如果我們去看中國的很多社群，你按相關關鍵字，滿滿的影片，我們真的還是很擔心。我想請國安會給我們一些說明，好不好？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：報告委員，我想這樣的事情我們當然是非常關切。因為警政單位他們主要是接受報案，我覺得我們國人自己要提高警覺，包括家長跟學校方面，甚至一般的民眾。我有朋友今天就去檢舉，他昨天就在學校門口看到可疑的人。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以是副秘您的朋友真的有看到？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，太好了！"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：他們還坐在學校附近的人行道上面。"],["陳委員培瑜：也就是說這個事情還沒有停止，對嗎？只是可能沒有在新聞流量上？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：甚至今天可能都還在進行。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。你覺得可以檢舉，我們可以向派出所先檢舉？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，然後呢？那我們國安會這邊？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：接獲檢舉後，警察都非常負責地問得很詳細，所以我相信我們警政單位已經非常嚴肅地面對這件事情。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那接下來就國安的角度，我們還要注意什麼事情？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：我想我們國安局以及其他相關國安的單位，他們會彼此交換訊息，然後深入調查這群人的背景。"],["陳委員培瑜：我想背景的調查當然很重要，另外一個新聞我們來看一下。中國人橡皮艇登臺事件頻繁，國安破口如何解？目前為止，到底他是居住在臺灣的中國人，還是他真的是駕著橡皮艇成功登臺的，目前都還是一個問號。但是確實我們還是擔心相關的國安破口，甚至我們也擔心這個模式在金門跟馬祖、在近期、在臺灣的數量也越來越多。有沒有可能是認知作戰，還有所謂的灰帶襲擾？","過往金門跟馬祖相對於中國，或者是他們的立法委員對於中國是相對友善的，可能對於相關的認知作戰或所謂的灰帶襲擾他們不見得跟我們有一樣程度的認知，但我認為這件事情都還是值得討論。可是回到臺灣本島，我們來看這件事情，國安單位可否給我們一些意見？或者你們後續將如何處理相關的事情？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：這個問題分兩個部分：首先，不論是本島或外島，我們國安單位都把它看作灰色襲擾的一部分，這個已經非常確定。當然，海巡署和海委會也表示我們的偵測系統可能有些不足，我知道海委會已經向行政院提出海空一體295億元的預算，裡面有強化各方面，次世代雷達、紅外線熱像儀、環島監視系統等等，強調要強化我們ISR系統的各種各樣的設備，可能需要一點時間來建構，但我們已經充分認識到我們要強化我們的海岸巡防系統。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個部分謝謝你的回復，我想後續國人的關心、國人的焦慮或立法院的監督都會持續，非常非常重要，雖然你們在預算很困難的情況下。最後，我想跟你分享一個是從我們辦公室蒐集到的另外一個我們認為有高度國安疑慮的個案，但我們很擔心它日後會成為通案。在2022年，當時職籃高雄鋼鐵人發現有港資，當時陸委會作了非常積極的處理，因為我們認為有國安疑慮，這個部分當然要給2022年的陸委會高度的肯定，但是我想要跟兩位分享，目前中國在全世界對運動的滲透其實最簡單的第一步就是開始買球隊，例如海外足球隊，非常有名的英超、西甲、葡甲、義甲都有，甚至在NBA裡面也已經買球隊了，買球隊之後可以做非常多的事情，我今天時間有限不再贅述。但是回到臺灣，我們收到一個陳情，在2024年我們辦公室已經積極處理了，也就是臺中的國立臺灣體育運動大學有一個學校的球隊，他們可以參加臺灣乙級足球聯賽，他們把參賽資格轉讓給一間公司叫豐匯體育有限公司，如果你去經濟部網站查，看不太出來這個公司有什麼問題，但是往下看，我們當然跟教育部已經討論過，教育部相關業務也在進行當中，目前國外的俱樂部或參賽權利的收購或轉讓在民間其實是所謂的商業行為，可是中華足協足球聯賽是FIFA/亞足聯系統賽事，重點在後面這句話，這些球隊可以代表臺灣參加國際賽，可是如果這些球隊背後的經營主或者擁有這個球隊的老闆，甚至這個球隊就只是學校的球隊參賽權，它竟然背後是中資跟港資，這有沒有國安疑慮？","我要說的是，其實不是只有足球，包含排球，在臺灣由單項協會所主辦的企業聯賽，也都可以代表臺灣參加國際組織的體育賽事，代表臺灣出隊，所以我想要請教一下，就國安的角度來說，當然後續這家公司我們再去追查發現所謂豐匯體育有限公司的負責人是另外一家公司的董事和發言人，而這家公司背後就是中資和港資，所以如果我們連連看會發現它確實有國安疑慮，而這個球隊目前的參賽權已經賣出去了，當然，教育部或監察院都有相關調查在進行，但是我要把相關個案跟國安會討論，如果未來在臺灣也開始發生中國在海外買球隊的狀況，它開始進到臺灣來進行這個操作，你們怎麼看？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：報告委員，這件事情當然是很嚴重，尤其是代表我們國家去參加國際比賽，如果背後有中資、港資，我想當然對我們國家利益是不好的，所以這件事情我們會帶回去跟教育部和行政院一起來協調開會，以及國安局，我們來研究一下應該怎麼去防杜這樣的事情發生。"],["陳委員培瑜：它除了代表臺灣出賽之外，它其實有另外一個疑慮，假設我背後是中資、港資，我在臺灣握有一個球隊，我用這個球隊的名義可能就可以去投標或承包某些場地的經營權，我舉一個例子，剛剛這個學校是在臺中，而臺中在後年就會落成一個足球園區，而這個足球園區如果真的被這個球隊拿去做場地的經營和空間，我很難想像背後中資和港資會如何透過這個身分做出一些滲透和我們認為灰色襲擾的部分，所以我才要把這個看起來像個案，但很有可能未來變成通案的狀況，跟國安會先行討論，好嗎？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：謝謝委員指教。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝你們，當然希望今天後續的預算解凍和討論可以順利進行，讓你們可以回去好好上班，謝謝兩位，謝謝主席。"],["主席：下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王鴻薇","羅智強","吳思瑤","王義川","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","陳培瑜","沈發惠"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於總統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聘廚師的費用你們自己報告書上面寫得很清楚啊每個月差不多八萬多塊錢 聘廚師的費用這個跟伙食費不一樣啊您說話有沒有邏輯太跳躍了"},{"start":105.216,"end":114.06,"text":"我們伙食費沒有刪 沒有凍結就算是今天沒有廚師去煮飯給阿兵哥吃還是可以對外買水餃 買便當 買麥當勞吧"},{"start":119.759,"end":134.974,"text":"不會讓阿兵哥餓到肚子嘛對不對我們真的很擔心啦就是第一個包含水電費沒了然後他們的三餐全部其實我真的很不會煮飯我最會煮的就是維大利炸醬麵而已"},{"start":136.576,"end":156.934,"text":"那廚師也好 他們要選材 洗材 然後還要清潔而且因為總統府跟其他的單位比較不一樣他負責國家中樞 這些元首 甚至像各個重要的官員是 何富密 您說的我都了解我也絕對是認為說 我們辛苦的憲兵弟兄們不可以讓他們餓肚子 不可以讓他們吃不好這完全都同意"},{"start":164.881,"end":182.38,"text":"那今天的解凍說實在話也沒有什麼太大的困難因為當時本來就認為說這部分請你們要做專案報告可是我今天很不滿的是你怎麼可以對外放話說我們如果今天這個廚師這個費用不解凍阿B哥就會餓肚子兩星期"},{"start":183.651,"end":188.375,"text":"在兩星期阿兵哥就會餓肚子啊這是錯誤的這是一個造謠跟委員報告不僅僅阿兵哥會餓到肚子我們連一些僱員都會被解僱掉大概二十幾個人所以委員如果說我講話可以再"},{"start":201.485,"end":228.047,"text":"對的解凍這是兩回事我現在只是講說你接受媒體採訪的時候因為你又這麼有媒體經驗你怎麼會不知道說這句話的影響力是對所以我今天只是要糾正是對這只是我們今天要解凍的有許只是一個聘廚室的費用但是這跟阿兵哥的伙食費沒有關係請你不要在那邊造謠說又是我們藍白立委喔這是害阿兵哥又沒飯吃又讓他們餓肚子"},{"start":229.488,"end":232.671,"text":"真的讓他們餓肚子的是你們啦如果說這個沒有聘到廚師或是人家廚師辭職如果廚師辭職的話是不是阿民哥就會餓肚子呢不會嘛你們還是會想辦法買外賣啊我同意文委員的說法那但是很抱歉我來質詢台備詢之前我五六日我有問一下我們第一線的這些兄弟姊妹士官兵我說你們誰會煮飯"},{"start":255.885,"end":266.595,"text":"他們都說現在什麼時代一定要會煮飯嗎就是阿民哥的伙食是一定要要自己有廚師去煮飯嗎對不對好啦這個何鳳敏我不要再跟你討論這個細節齁那麼我只是要希望你能夠為這個事情"},{"start":272.922,"end":289.36,"text":"至少要说明白不是砍的是伙食费而是厨师费对不对我希望待会的这个媒体也可以做更正报道就澄清了事实澄清的报道但是他们真的说他们又要战哨然后又要晒太阳他们下"},{"start":290.822,"end":299.591,"text":"哪一個軍人弟兄不是這樣所以我們才要調高軍人待遇啊你們又反對這個民進黨的委員又反對反對給這個軍人待遇調整"},{"start":307.11,"end":325.972,"text":"所以民進黨很多的邏輯是非常奇怪的接下來我要問的就是說有關於你們講說因為業務被刪所以可能會影響到總統府的媒體新聞的宣傳等等我在這裡我想請問這次總統他接受了幾個媒體的採訪"},{"start":328.9,"end":339.974,"text":"是總統府有沒有付這個受訪的費用不管是閩迪選讀日本經濟新聞還有財訊這個部分就我所知沒有"},{"start":341.295,"end":359.87,"text":"這是沒有確定沒有我們之後下一年度看的時候看到你們的經費報這其實是有像過去蔡英文總統在選舉的時候我還記得是接受博恩夜夜秀的訪問本來以為說博恩夜夜秀是單純去邀訪"},{"start":360.791,"end":380.368,"text":"等到事後才發現這也是付費的啊所以你們確定嗎這三個節目是沒有付任何的費用給媒體那如果是這樣的話那就代表說其實媒體對於總統府的這個各項的業務啊採訪這些都是很有興趣那你們其實真的可以節省這筆費用嗎"},{"start":381.977,"end":404.986,"text":"你們媒體新聞宣傳費可以節省起來反正這麼多的媒體都對總統府很有興趣對總統的八眼也很有興趣以後應該要多邀他們來做免費報導我覺得這一方面也是節省功效不是嗎我跟委員報告一下其實帶我長大的我自己是單親家庭啦帶我長大的是一個身心障礙的哥哥我自己的"},{"start":406.651,"end":430.18,"text":"這個表格那我想台灣為什麼會讓全世界尊重我們因為我們在總統在說話的時候不管是聽障的朋友還是如何我們都有手語的翻譯我們不要漏了不要漏了任何一個人那此外其實台灣受到全世界的尊重跟喜愛我們有多國的翻譯都在這一筆的預算裡面"},{"start":430.6,"end":455.036,"text":"所以另外一個部分 何富密您講的我知道但是我覺得您又岔題了這也是我很佩服您的地方我剛剛其實問就是說是總統接受媒體訪問總統府有沒有付錢沒有 那沒有就非常好那就代表說總統的發言還有總統府的公關做得很好媒體都願意來免費報導那這樣我也鼓勵你們未來可以朝這個方向去做可是我們的直播怎麼辦呢有關於這個緊急危難的部分我們的翻譯怎麼辦"},{"start":460.74,"end":484.384,"text":"你們可以把你們要去做媒體更換費用我們也不可能長期的找志工來這樣子真的會口語的翻譯好那接下來我要這個修語老師也我也我真的不會修語這個部分的費用解凍我們待會會再談拜託謝謝支持接下來我還會再講就是說有關於緊急危難未問金的部分看起來你們是如果這個費用沒有解凍國務教費裡面這個我們現在是動多少是"},{"start":490.766,"end":505.581,"text":"動了一千萬如果沒有動的話總統是連緊急危難的補助金慰問金都發不出來是嗎是的我跟委員報告一下請問一下總統現在一個月領多少薪水像最近的這個車禍的事件"},{"start":507.118,"end":518.231,"text":"總統其實到現場他也不接受媒體的訪問所以總統心有餘而力不足因為他沒有那個錢可以先支出緊急危難的慰問金是嗎"},{"start":521.775,"end":537.019,"text":"就我所知他有時候會自己掏腰包啦至少我現在沒有聽到總統有自己掏腰包付支付緊急危難慰問金的情況我們只有看到中央政府不斷地講我們如果說扣了國務機要費那總統就沒有辦法用我們的公帑去支付緊急危難的慰問金"},{"start":545.742,"end":553.206,"text":"其實他不僅僅緊急為難 包含一些軍警我想請教一下 總統每個月現在支領是多少薪水100萬嗎70萬要精準喔 要精準喔 來 請回應"},{"start":564.546,"end":576.037,"text":"因為我們今年有調薪3%嘛 公教人員有調薪3%那總統副總統的薪水我們依照內政部配合公教人員調薪3%他答覆給我們的是546,970台加特資費呢"},{"start":579.844,"end":593.914,"text":"沒有特殊費啊做得好 就是國際藥費嘛 對對對就是一個月五六十萬嘛 還加年終獎金等等我們這樣講好了表達一個心意 表達一個慰問金就算是這個國際藥費暫時凍結總統連這點小錢都不願意出嗎他連這樣的一個慰問的這個慰問的這個費用 請問委員我可以回答嗎對 他可以先暫待啊"},{"start":605.781,"end":624.266,"text":"我覺得今天講的好像是總統只要是沒有這筆錢他連一般的社會的慰問緊急危難這些都沒有辦法做我覺得這是總統的心意就算是我們現在立法委員我們沒有編任何的什麼緊急危難的這個費用我遇到了"},{"start":625.174,"end":637.523,"text":"有需要幫忙的人需要去救助的我自己還是會用我的薪水去我會花自己的錢去救助"},{"start":638.832,"end":666.558,"text":"所以我認為說總統府不要把這些事情拿來講說因為這個錢如果不解凍的話會影響到委員可以給我30秒我30秒快速回應其實每一年總統府都會跟我們的弱勢團體採購水果或者手工皂手工餅乾這些讓這些社福團體他們能夠被看到而且有時候募款很辛苦的時候他們可以去做到第二件事情跟委員報告"},{"start":668.078,"end":682.074,"text":"你可以上網自己搜尋其實賴總統以前真的都把他的薪水有捐給很多不同的社福團體但是他為善不欲人知所以並沒有特別的去做PR或者是做這些公關的部分"},{"start":693.389,"end":717.117,"text":"今天是副秘書長來我想您今天大概從早到現在大概也受到了很多的炮火其實大家不是對您不滿大家主要是對吳釗燮秘書長不滿真的是藐視國會明明按照我們現在組織法國安會就是有要到立法院來備詢而且接受立法院的監督可是你們可以這麼多次都不來坦白說看起來"},{"start":718.357,"end":725.781,"text":"吳釗信秘書長也不太在乎國安會的這個預算到底要不要解凍那因為剛剛涉及到一個事情所以我在這裡我要講就是剛剛說政務人員待遇為什麼我們只凍十萬元"},{"start":730.953,"end":742.464,"text":"我要講的是當時的提案是因為我們有發現國安會在政務人員待遇今年的編列費用比去年高達多出15.85%這是超出過去的這個幅度"},{"start":748.65,"end":753.172,"text":"而且依照公務人員的加薪每年加3%3%也加不到15.85%所以我們提出來這個問題請你們做專案報告後來這個本來是凍結100萬後來談談說好吧現在這樣的話只凍了10萬元"},{"start":764.076,"end":785.252,"text":"是這樣的緣由不是王一川委員說的他那時候還沒有進來所以我就說委員要用功啦要去質詢的時候也要先看看人家之前的提案是什麼不要在那邊亂造謠那接下來還有一個部分就是有關於國安會這邊講的說要我們對於這個諮詢研究業務費用希望國安會要提出專案報告你們現在列的這是什麼這是叫專案報告兩頁叫專案報告"},{"start":793.106,"end":802.134,"text":"徐副秘書長您的報告的概念跟我們做報告的概念是完全不一樣這加起來可能都還不到兩千字這就叫做報告報告委員這個內容主要是"},{"start":808.629,"end":813.31,"text":"因為當時黃國昌委員問的是我們那個經費是怎麼使用那我們就是把用人別國別還有旅行的次數把它報告出來所以你們去了哪些國家做了什麼樣研究做了什麼調查難道我們沒有權利知道嗎難道人民不應該知道說到底官會每年編了這麼多的錢是用到哪裡了"},{"start":832.534,"end":857.058,"text":"你們怎麼知道說你們是不是到日本去看黑熊或是到什麼冰島去看極光我們不可能去冰島看極光啦所以你要告訴我你們要去哪裡我已經講了我們這裡面都有專案每個專案去哪些但是委員我跟您說去哪些國家我們沒辦法講這是因為我們國安人員出去通常是不露出的"},{"start":857.618,"end":864.981,"text":"這是基於雙方的一個不相同的問題我也知道這可能涉及到一些機密但是你不要忘記我們立法院也可以開秘密會議我們可以不需要公開讓所有的媒體讓所有的民眾看這個直播但是我們立法院可以召開秘密會議你們也可以提密件報告在國防外交委員會都有這麼做"},{"start":882.648,"end":902.569,"text":"所以你們沒有道理說不讓我們立法委員知道你們今天到底去哪裡開會否則我們很合理的懷疑為什麼不敢講對不對連監察院都可以說他們編列外國參旅費是到日本去看黑熊那國安會議到底你們做了些什麼"},{"start":903.871,"end":915.487,"text":"總是可以跟我們個別委員 或是我們就裝開一個小的群組讓我們大概知道 我們也不需要知道具體名下的名所以這個叫專案報告這是一個不合格的專案報告啊所以我們只能這樣寫"},{"start":920.58,"end":943.485,"text":"我寫的沒有不跟您講請教主席如果說今天我們認為這個專案報告裡面的內容應該要更清楚那麼國安會認為說這可能社交機密我們是不是可以開一個秘密會議呢就是我們純粹委員這邊然後這樣才能夠知道他們的專案報告內容什麼否則的話我們今天怎麼可能會讓你們這個案子過"},{"start":946.206,"end":949.131,"text":"就預算的部分他這裡我們不是講說就他的研究諮詢業務當時的研究諮詢業務說三個月內提出專案報告並經同意嗎"},{"start":961.448,"end":978.842,"text":"有沒有這個可能性因為我問了一下我們本委員會以前從來沒有過這樣的前例啦是沒有這樣的前例但是不代表說不可以開嘛在我們法規上面有禁止說司法法治委員會不可以開命令會議嗎對否則我覺得這未來就是一個漏洞啊"},{"start":979.963,"end":999.225,"text":"對 國安會每年的預算送給我們審查就我們竟然沒有辦法知道說他們到底用到哪裡去了只有一個總頭頭的一個經費幾千萬上億是總頭頭 我有分區域 有分次數這我都有報告那我怎麼知道你寫的是對還是不對我們都有經過會計和審核我們不可能撒謊啊"},{"start":1001.475,"end":1026.855,"text":"現在連光雲撒謊這個大法官都認為沒有處罰啦所以我根本不知道你們到底有沒有撒謊啦我們經過會計程序怎麼可能撒謊呢我想我們立法院重要的職責基本上就是監督警政機關我們也很希望了解到底業務機關做了什麼事情這個可以作為你們日後要增加預算"},{"start":1027.375,"end":1041.432,"text":"或是在兵力預算的時候就我們大家就比較清楚否則的話現在以你們這樣子的一個報告方式我們根本不知道你們到底去開了什麼會議做了什麼考察然後只是說依照地區然後什麼來區分"},{"start":1043.354,"end":1056.703,"text":"任何一個機關的報告都不可能這樣子寫報告委員我們不是去考察我們都是去開會沒有考察這種東西是 所以去開會會議總要有個名稱吧有名稱但是沒辦法講報告委員沒辦法在這裡講我是跟您說實話所以我才說這可能可以涉及到密會或是你們有密件的方式來提供給我們知道送密件的方式是其他委員會也都有過的不是說沒有的"},{"start":1072.293,"end":1085.351,"text":"對 我們如果看了密件 未來我們洩漏機密這個是要負責任的 負刑責的每個委員都很清楚我們的法律責任是什麼可是你們不能因此而規避掉你們的責任我們沒有規避 報告委員我們沒有規避"},{"start":1086.482,"end":1104.633,"text":"我可以把你們的報告我直接可以貼臉書然後請社會大眾來公平看看我們是不是同意國安會這樣的專案報告可以讓他解凍預算因為我今天耽誤太多時間雖然我還準備了很多題目不過就是謝謝昭緯給我這樣的時間就是說剛剛有提到"},{"start":1109.016,"end":1117.633,"text":"秘會的部分 因為以前沒有前例啦 那今天會後的話我們會研究一下那當然法規沒有禁止 這個是我要在這邊先跟各位報告"},{"start":1120.765,"end":1145.836,"text":"那那個剛剛就是有關翁委員所提到的就是火石費的部分因為剛剛我們那個國防外交委員會的委員有特別請我在這邊跟大家說明一下就是因為國軍的官兵薪資裡面是由官兵向那個單位繳納納入火石團採買所以總統府的預算如果被凍結憲兵"},{"start":1148.297,"end":1171.918,"text":"就是211營它的伙食它是無關的所以說這是剛剛那個國防委員會的委員給我們的就是說今天的業務費如果沒有解凍的話其實跟官兵沒有錢吃飯是兩回事這是剛剛國防委員會那當然這部分再請大家了解一下好 謝謝那我們下一位請陳美鳳"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":592,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（15時22分）首先先請何副秘書長。"],["主席：何副秘。"],["何副秘書長志偉：翁委員您好。"],["翁委員曉玲：何副秘你好。因為今天早上我們考慮到國安會秘書長及總統府秘書長沒有來，所以早上會議先休息，然後您在中間的時候是不是有接受媒體訪問說如果今天總統府的預算案不解凍的話，阿兵哥再兩星期就沒飯吃，是嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：是的。"],["翁委員曉玲：您不覺得您說這個話，這是在混淆是非啊！我們今天要解凍的是什麼案子？"],["何副秘書長志偉：業務費，還有……"],["翁委員曉玲：業務費，業務費與阿兵哥的伙食費相同嗎？我們當時凍結的是阿兵哥的伙食費嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：它是我們業務費裡面的其中一項。"],["翁委員曉玲：一項什麼？"],["何副秘書長志偉：我快速跟委員……"],["翁委員曉玲：是廚師費嘛！是聘廚師的費用，你們自己報告裡面寫的是聘廚師的費用，對不對？"],["何副秘書長志偉：它接下來的確會影響到他們三餐的膳食，那我們這邊……"],["翁委員曉玲：不是，我們這樣講，今天要解凍的是什麼費用？是廚師的費用嘛！聘廚師的費用，你們自己報告書上面寫得很清楚啊！每個月差不多八萬多塊錢，聘廚師的費用，這個跟伙食費不一樣啊！您說話是不是邏輯太跳躍了？我們伙食費沒有刪，沒有凍結，就算今天沒有廚師煮飯給阿兵哥吃，還是可以對外買水餃、買便當、買麥當勞吧！不會讓阿兵哥餓到肚子嘛！對不對？"],["何副秘書長志偉：我們真的很擔心啦！第一個，包含水電費沒了，然後他們的三餐，其實我真的很不會煮飯，我最會煮的就是維力炸醬麵而已，那廚師他們要選材、洗材還要清潔，而且總統府與其他的單位比較不一樣，他負責國家中樞這些元首，甚至是各個重要官員的進出，所以……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，何副秘，您說的我都瞭解，我也絕對是認為……"],["何副秘書長志偉：而且超過百人以上。"],["翁委員曉玲：辛苦的憲兵弟兄們不可以讓他們餓肚子，不可以讓他們吃不好，這完全都同意。"],["何副秘書長志偉：謝謝委員的支持。"],["翁委員曉玲：今天的解凍說實在話，也沒有什麼太大的困難……"],["何副秘書長志偉：再拜託委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：因為當時本來就認為這個部分要請你們做專案報告，可是我今天很不滿的是，你怎麼可以對外放話說如果今天這個廚師費用不解凍，阿兵哥再兩星期就會餓肚子？這是錯誤的，這個是造謠！"],["何副秘書長志偉：跟委員報告，不僅僅阿兵哥會餓肚子，我們連一些雇員都會被解僱掉，大概二十幾個人，所以委員如果說我講話可以再……"],["翁委員曉玲：這個跟業務費的解凍是兩回事，我現在只是講你接受媒體採訪的時候，以您這麼有媒體經驗，你怎麼會不知道說這句話的影響力？"],["何副秘書長志偉：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以我現在就是要糾正。"],["何副秘書長志偉：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們今天要解凍的也許只是一個聘廚師的費用，但是這與阿兵哥的伙食費沒有關係，請你不要在那邊造謠說又是我們藍白立委害阿兵哥沒飯吃，讓他們餓肚子，真的讓他們餓肚子的是你們啦！如果沒有聘到廚師或是人家廚師辭職的話，是不是阿兵哥就會餓肚子呢？不會嘛！你們還是會想辦法外買啊！對不對？"],["何副秘書長志偉：我同意翁委員的說法，但是很抱歉，我來質詢臺備詢之前，在五、六、日我有問一下這些第一線的兄弟姊妹士官兵，我說你們誰會煮飯？他們都說不可能。"],["翁委員曉玲：現在什麼時代，一定要會煮飯嗎？阿兵哥的伙食一定要自己有廚師去煮飯嗎？對不對？好啦！副秘，我不要再跟你討論細節。"],["何副秘書長志偉：再多拜託，他們說……"],["翁委員曉玲：我只是希望你對這件事情至少要說明白，不是砍伙食費，而是廚師費，對不對？"],["何副秘書長志偉：謝謝委員指教。"],["翁委員曉玲：我希望待會媒體也可以做更正報導，就是澄清啦！事實澄清的報導。"],["何副秘書長志偉：但是他們真的說他們又要站哨，又要曬太陽，下了站崗之後……"],["翁委員曉玲：哪一個軍人弟兄不是這樣？所以我們才要調高軍人待遇啊！"],["何副秘書長志偉：感謝委員支持。"],["翁委員曉玲：那你們又反對，對不對？"],["何副秘書長志偉：再拜託、再拜託。"],["翁委員曉玲：民進黨的委員又反對給軍人待遇調整，所以民進黨很多的邏輯是非常奇怪的。"],["何副秘書長志偉：委員，我們的待遇已經有調整囉！已經有調整了。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我要問的是，你們說因為刪業務費，所以可能會影響到總統府的媒體新聞宣傳等等，在這裡我想請問，這次總統他接受了幾個媒體的採訪，總統府有沒有付受訪的費用？包括敏迪選讀、日本經濟新聞及財訊。"],["何副秘書長志偉：這個部分就我所知，沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：這次沒有。"],["何副秘書長志偉：對，是的，沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：確定沒有？"],["何副秘書長志偉：確定沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，不要我們下個年度看了之後，看到你們的經費報這個，其實是有。像過去蔡英文總統在選舉的時候，我還記得是接受「博恩夜夜秀」的訪問，本來以為「博恩夜夜秀」是單純去邀訪，等到事後才發現這也是付費的啊！所以你們確定嘛？這3個節目沒有付任何費用給媒體。"],["何副秘書長志偉：就我所知，確定沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：如果是這樣的話，那就代表媒體對於總統府各項業務的採訪都很有興趣，其實你們真的可以節省這筆費用啊！你們媒體新聞宣傳費可以節省起來，反正這麼多媒體都對總統府很有興趣，對總統的發言也很有興趣，以後應該要多邀他們來做免費報導，我覺得這一方面也是節省公帑，不是嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：我跟委員報告一下，其實我自己是單親家庭啦！帶我長大的是一個身心障礙的哥哥，我自己的表哥，我想臺灣為什麼會讓全世界尊重我們？因為總統在說話的時候，不管是聽障的朋友還是如何，我們都有手語的翻譯，我們不要漏了任何一個人。此外，其實臺灣受到全世界的尊重與喜愛，我們有多國的翻譯都在這一筆預算裡面。另外一個部分，向委員……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，何副秘，您講的我知道……"],["何副秘書長志偉：最後一個……"],["翁委員曉玲：但是我覺得您又岔題了，這也是我很佩服您的地方。"],["何副秘書長志偉：不好意思。"],["翁委員曉玲：我剛剛只是問說總統接受媒體訪問，總統府有沒有付錢？"],["何副秘書長志偉：沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有，非常好，那就代表總統的發言還有總統府的公關做得很好，媒體都願意來免費報導，我也鼓勵你們未來可以朝這個方向去做。"],["何副秘書長志偉：可是我們的直播怎麼辦？"],["翁委員曉玲：好，接下來我要問有關於緊急危難的部分……"],["何副秘書長志偉：我們的翻譯怎麼辦？"],["翁委員曉玲：你們可以把媒體公關的費用挪去做口語的翻譯。"],["何副秘書長志偉：我們也不可能長期地找志工來，這樣子真的會……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，接下來我要再……"],["何副秘書長志偉：拜託，像手語老師，我真的不會手語。"],["翁委員曉玲：這個部分的費用解凍，我們待會會再談。"],["何副秘書長志偉：拜託，謝謝支持。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我要講有關於緊急危難慰問金的部分，如果這個費用沒有解凍，國務機要費現在是凍了1,000萬，如果沒有解凍的話，總統連緊急危難慰問金都發不出來，是嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：是的，我跟委員報告一下，像最近的……"],["翁委員曉玲：請問總統現在一個月領多少薪水？"],["何副秘書長志偉：像最近的車禍事件，其實總統到現場他也不接受媒體的訪問，他也很希望……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以總統是心有餘而力不足，因為他沒有錢可以先支出緊急危難的慰問金，是嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：就我所知，他有時候會自己掏腰包啦！但是這是國家給予總統……"],["翁委員曉玲：至少我們現在沒有聽到總統有自己掏腰包支付緊急危難慰問金的情況。"],["何副秘書長志偉：我們中華民國，我們臺灣的這一位總統……"],["翁委員曉玲：我們只有看到總統府不斷地講，如果扣了國務機要費，總統就沒有辦法用公帑去支付緊急危難慰問金。"],["何副秘書長志偉：其實不僅僅是緊急危難，包含一些軍、警……"],["翁委員曉玲：我想請教一下，總統現在每個月支領多少薪水？100萬嗎？還是70萬？"],["何副秘書長志偉：來，請回應，要精準。"],["黃處長新雛：因為我們今年有調薪3%嘛！公教人員有調薪3%，那總統、副總統的薪水我們依照內政部，配合公教人員也調薪3%，它答復給我們的是54萬6,970元。"],["翁委員曉玲：加上特支費呢？"],["黃處長新雛：沒有特支費。"],["翁委員曉玲：就是國務機要費嘛！"],["黃處長新雛：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：就是一個月50、60萬，加上年終獎金等等。我們這樣講好了，表達心意的一個慰問金，就算國務機要費暫時凍結，總統連這點小錢都不願意出嗎？他連這樣一個慰問的費用……"],["何副秘書長志偉：請問委員，我可以回答嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：他可以先暫墊啊！對不對？我覺得今天講的好像是總統只要沒有這筆錢，他連一般的社會慰問、緊急危難這些都沒有辦法做，我覺得這是總統的心意，就算現在我們立法委員沒有編任何緊急危難的費用，我遇到了需要幫忙、需要救助的人，我還是會用我的薪水，會花自己的錢去救助，所以我認為總統府不要把這些事情拿來講說這個錢如果不解凍的話會影響到你們。"],["何副秘書長志偉：委員，可以給我30秒嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：好，接下來我還要……"],["何副秘書長志偉：拜託，我用30秒快速回應。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。"],["何副秘書長志偉：其實每一年總統府都會向弱勢團體採購水果或是手工皂、手工餅乾，讓這些社福團體能夠被看到，而且有時候募款很辛苦的時候，他們可以去做到。","第二件事情跟委員報告，你可以上網自行搜尋，其實賴總統以前真的有把他的薪水捐給很多不同的社福團體，但是他為善不欲人知，所以並沒有特別地去做PR或者是做這些公關的部分。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝何副秘，這個部分我曉得了，因為我時間有限，接下來我要很快請教一下國安會。"],["何副秘書長志偉：謝謝。"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：今天是副秘書長來，您從早上到現在大概也受到很多的砲火，其實大家不是對您不滿，大家主要是對吳釗燮秘書長不滿，真的是藐視國會。明明按照我們現在的組織法，國安會就是要到立法院來備詢，而且接受立法院的監督，可是你們可以這麼多次都不來，坦白說，看起來吳釗燮秘書長也不太在乎國安會的預算到底要不要解凍。"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：應該不是這樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，因為剛剛涉及到一件事情，所以在這裡我要講，政務人員待遇為什麼我們只凍10萬元？我要講的是，當時的提案是因為我們發現國安會今年在政務人員待遇編列的費用比去年多出15.85%，這是超出過去的幅度，而且依照公務人員的加薪，每年加3%、3%也加不到15.85%，所以我們提出這個問題請你們做專案報告，本來是凍結100萬，後來才說好吧！既然這樣的話只凍了10萬元，是這樣的原由，不是王義川委員說的，他那時候還沒有進來，所以我就說委員要用功啦！要去質詢的時候，也要先看看人家之前的提案是什麼，不要在那邊亂造謠！","接下來還有一個部分，有關於國安會的諮詢研究業務費用，我們希望國安會要提出專案報告，你們現在列的這是什麼？這叫專案報告，兩頁叫專案報告？徐副秘書長，您對報告的概念跟我們做報告的概念是完全不一樣啊！這加起來可能都還不到2,000字，這就叫做報告？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：報告委員，這個內容主要是因為當時黃國昌委員問我們那個經費是怎麼使用，我們就是用人別、國別還有旅行的次數把它報告出來。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以你們去了哪些國家、做了什麼樣的研究、做了什麼調查，難道我們沒有權利知道嗎？難道人民不應該知道國安會每年編這麼多錢到底是用在哪裡？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：不是不能知道，我已經在講，我們這個報告裡面……"],["翁委員曉玲：我們怎麼知道你們是不是又到日本去看黑熊或是到冰島去看極光？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：我們不可能去冰島看極光啦！"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你要告訴我你們去哪裡，否則會被我們懷疑。"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：我已經講了，我們這裡面都有專案，但是委員我跟您說，每個專案去哪些國家我們沒辦法講，這是因為我們國安人員出去通常是不露出的，這是基於雙方的互相理解。"],["翁委員曉玲：副秘書長，這樣說好了，我也知道這可能涉及到一些機密，但是你不要忘記……"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：所以他去哪裡、跟什麼人接觸，我們沒辦法講。"],["翁委員曉玲：立法院也可以開秘密會議，我們不需要公開讓所有媒體、所有民眾看這個直播，但是立法院可以召開秘密會議，你們也可以提密件報告，在國防外交委員會都有這麼做，所以你們沒有道理不讓立法委員知道你們今天到底去哪裡開會，否則我們很合理地懷疑為什麼不敢講，對不對？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：不是不敢講，是沒辦法講，我們沒有不敢講。"],["翁委員曉玲：連監察院都可以說他們編列外國差旅費是到日本去看黑熊，你們國安會到底做了些什麼，總是可以向個別委員或是我們就召開一個小的group，讓我們大概知道，我們也不需要知道得鉅細靡遺。"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：但是當時叫我們提專案報告，我們……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這個叫專案報告？這是一個不合格的專案報告啊！"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：不是，因為當時是公開的委員會，所以我們只能這樣寫，沒有不跟您講。"],["翁委員曉玲：請教主席，如果今天我們認為專案報告裡面的內容應該要更清楚，那麼國安會認為這可能涉及到機密，我們是不是可以開一個秘密會議？就是我們純粹委員這邊，這樣才能夠知道他們專案報告的內容是什麼，否則的話，我們今天怎麼可能會讓這個案子過？"],["主席：就預算的部分，是不是？"],["翁委員曉玲：對，就預算的部分，當時我們不是講說就它的研究諮詢業務，3個月內提出專案報告並經同意嘛！有沒有這個可能性？"],["主席：翁委員，因為我問了一下，本委員會以前從來沒有過這樣的前例。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，沒有前例，但是不代表不可以開嘛！在我們法規上面有禁止司法及法制委員會不可以開秘密會議嗎？否則我覺得這未來就是一個漏洞啊！對不對？國安會每年的預算送給我們審查，結果我們竟然沒有辦法知道他們到底用到哪裡去了，只有一個總total的經費，幾千萬、上億！"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：不是總total，我有分區域，有分次數，這個我都有報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：我怎麼知道你寫的是對還是不對？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：我們都有經過會計的審核，我們不可能撒謊啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：我跟你講，現在連官員撒謊，大法官都認為沒有處罰啦！所以我根本不知道你們到底有沒有撒謊啦！"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：我們經過會計程序，怎麼可能撒謊呢？"],["翁委員曉玲：是這樣子的，副秘書長，我們立法院重要的職責基本上就是監督行政機關……"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：我沒有不向立法院報告，報告委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：那麼我們也很希望瞭解到底業務機關做了什麼事情，這個可以作為你們日後要增加預算或是在編列預算的時候我們大家就比較清楚，否則的話，現在以你們這樣子的報告方式，我們根本不知道你們到底去開了什麼會議、做了什麼考察，然後只是說依照地區，依照什麼來區分，任何一個機關的報告都不可能這樣子寫！"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：報告委員，我們不是去考察，我們都是去開會，沒有考察這種東西，都是去開會。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以你們去開會，會議總要有一個名稱吧？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：有名稱，但是沒辦法講。"],["翁委員曉玲：連個會議名稱都沒有！"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：報告委員，沒辦法在這裡講，我是跟您說實話。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，所以我才說這可能涉及到密會或是你們用密件的方式提供給我們知道，對不對？送密件的方式，這是其他委員會也都有過的，不是說沒有。我們如果看了密件，未來我們洩漏機密，這個是要負責任的，要負刑責的！每個委員都很清楚我們的法律責任是什麼，可是你們不能因此而規避掉你們的責任。"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：報告委員，我們沒有規避。我之所以會這樣，有我的原因嘛！"],["翁委員曉玲：我今天可以把你們的報告……"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：我理解！"],["翁委員曉玲：直接貼臉書，然後請社會大眾來公評，看看我們是不是同意國安會這樣的專案報告可以讓它解凍預算。因為我今天耽誤太多時間，雖然我還準備了很多題目，不過就是謝謝召委給我這樣的時間。"],["主席：剛剛有提到秘密會議的部分，因為以前沒有前例，今天會後我們會研究一下。當然法規沒有禁止，這個是我要在這邊先跟各位報告的。"],["翁委員曉玲：……送密件吧？"],["主席：是。有關翁委員所提到的伙食費的部分，剛剛我們外交及國防委員會的委員有特別請我在這邊跟大家說明一下。因為國軍的官兵薪資裡面是由官兵向單位繳納納入伙食團採買，所以總統府的預算如果被凍結，憲兵211營的伙食是無關的。這是剛剛國防委員會的委員給我們的，就是說今天的業務費如果沒有解凍的話，其實跟官兵沒有錢吃飯是兩回事。當然這部分再請大家了解一下，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝召委。"],["主席：下一位請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王鴻薇","羅智強","吳思瑤","王義川","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","陳培瑜","沈發惠"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於總統府預算凍結項目共 5案；二、處理114年度中央政府總\n預算關於國家安全會議預算凍結項目共4案","agenda_id":"1145202_00003"}}},{"id":"161779","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161779","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db324603a6dd4f5258e11a54d16b4ae569f45a94dd28b54b38a4fe3771cb6bf56e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"15:11:24 - 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謝謝主席 遵照主席的命令那是你講的我要簡單問一下 兩位副秘書長兩位副秘書長好我剛才看吳宗憲招委這樣 愛愛求 堅固卑卑我們都 求都叫不來你覺得你很不民主 你也不民主我們這四萬萬有誰想漏氣你當作你叫不來 人家有給你簽名的"},{"start":45.54,"end":53.347,"text":"奇怪的喔,他都在叫不是在叫什麼總統府,總統府潘秘書長有給你請假嘛,對不對,官會沒來嘛,有請假嗎?人家也有給你請假,還算不錯,我真的羨慕死你了,我跟你講,昨晚來連來都不來,連給我請個假,打個電話都沒有,不要哀啦,我們兩個苦難兄弟啦"},{"start":67.3,"end":89.087,"text":"昨天是520 就是說總統的就職一週年這一年看起來也是風風雨雨 那我要就教兩位了就是說其實我大家都看到說朝野是攻防激烈 當然也是對立 非常的嚴重但是這影響到的就是一些法案的一個通過 還有預算的一個凍結"},{"start":90.988,"end":98.515,"text":"那大選過後到現在第一任的行政團隊算是走得也蠻辛苦啦 蠻辛苦那我先詢問一下 我們複密這一年來 你有什麼樣的感想 你覺得整個政體怎麼樣還可以讓整個政府更精進的地方"},{"start":110.27,"end":134.719,"text":"我想這個部分還是要多聽委員專業的委員的想法跟意見但是我覺得在這一年的時間以來我認為國際社會越來越喜歡台灣也更重視台灣那在此時此刻我認為朝野的團結非常的重要一起讓在變動的國際環境當中走一個更穩定更安定而且更前瞻的路謝謝委員的垂詢"},{"start":136.081,"end":155.627,"text":"你這個回答的定義說對外宣示而已,我是在說你看到應該檢討的地方不是說什麼更團結,本來每一個國家裡面要更團結我說你都就你的觀察,你覺得我們政府哪些地方該精進你現在是叫在野黨要精進,我是說我們自己政府要怎麼精進我相信這也是要聽委員的,委員有什麼想法,我記錄起來,我繼續核實"},{"start":163.429,"end":188.694,"text":"這是不錯的 有進步了 感謝 感謝你副院長 你的看法是怎樣看法跟志偉 副院看法一樣厲害啦 你們兩個今天來要討錢而已啦但也很好 也很好那昨天啦 我看大家也都很清楚啦立法院就通過這個公投案 就核三這個部分我不曉得兩位喔 有沒有就這個議題裡面啦"},{"start":191.89,"end":209.803,"text":"總統府裡面有沒有任何的一個討論我看總統府也去發表了一些看法對於整個河山到底要不要去做研議提到的是說 河安無虞 河廢料有解 社會上有共識那這當然是一個基本前提我們要問的就是說 你們對這個你們總統府有去討論到嗎 還是國安會會不會去討論到這個議題這涉及到國安喔 涉及到國安 我為什麼這樣講"},{"start":219.588,"end":241.66,"text":"你像譬如說2011年3月11日福島核災發生的時候你可不可以知道我們那時候在看的時候全世界差不多都對日本核食全部都限制他們的一個進口日本人也會叫哪五個縣市你們還記得吧你們有人知道嗎"},{"start":246.551,"end":261.78,"text":"我問你這是有關你們的 福島當然是首商其衝 它的農產 水產 甚至畜牧這全部都被全世界給它做一個抵制 次成在旁邊"},{"start":263.194,"end":284.218,"text":"荔木還有群馬還有一個最遠的叫千葉縣有到水千葉縣如果到福島差不多要三百公里兩三百公里我特別這樣講如果是你河山的話那用311福島這樣的一個河災事變的話如果要三百公里到台灣多你知不知道差不多到哪裡你知道嗎"},{"start":289.506,"end":305.329,"text":"國安咧 開什麼玩笑 我這不是亂問人家想做差不多到廟裡了到廟裡代表什麼意思你知道 就是說河山萬一有任何的一個事情發生的話萬一啊 大家都沒希望會發生啊那差不多啊"},{"start":306.38,"end":308.202,"text":"差不多要用輔導來看 農產、水產、水產全部都不能處理所以這個問題就是非常非常嚴重所以我本期昨天一直在講說過去40年 國民黨在我們國家公園的旁邊放了兩顆反應爐"},{"start":330.1,"end":347.747,"text":"那四十年我們以為屏東這個就可以解除這樣的一個災難為這個國家貢獻那麼久了沒有想到又來一個白色的民眾黨又提了一個案要繼續再言喻所以我昨天才會下一個註解藍白真的在我們台灣對我們屏東來講真的不是什麼好東西"},{"start":349.909,"end":364.52,"text":"重點是說 那萬一啊 萬一啊 這如果真的到時候 過了後 產生的衝擊會那麼大總統府對這方面 你們到底有沒有去做任何的一個推 沙盤的一個推演你倆的感受聽到嗎 有就說有 說沒有也沒關係啊"},{"start":372.291,"end":399.853,"text":"委任理的問責跟質詢我們都很關心齁那但是這個目前這一塊我本身我自己個人沒有這個業務的執掌所以我可能要很謹慎如果可以允許我一點時間讓我去問好不好拜託這也不用問啦你如果做到最後啦這個是一個良心的問題啦是會通過這個就是說把人家的兒子死不掉把人家的兒子死不掉就是說這個台北的觀點跟南部的觀點會完全不一樣啦"},{"start":400.831,"end":418.786,"text":"你像如果說合一為什麼他不弄合一合二合一合二的話按照整個任何的核電廠你只要哪發生核災20公里全部都要全部人都要遣照那30公里的都要去避難"},{"start":420.182,"end":439.665,"text":"核災一發生 常常會因為地形 常常會因為整個風向還有你下雨 影響會很大日本到現在還哇哇叫 日本現在還認為我們是對他貿易歧視那五個縣市 我們現在還要他安全證明還有他整個輻射的一個檢測 為了國人的安全"},{"start":441.436,"end":469.249,"text":"2022年我們政府開放之後整個國民黨都叫民進黨的政府現在它要說核酸要研議當然研議不代表核酸會怎麼樣但是重點就是說一個負責任的政府你那個核廢料沒有能力去處理的話你憑什麼要跟人家說你要繼續用核電廠任何一個縣市只要有垃圾廠的大家都帶頭抗爭"},{"start":471.227,"end":474.334,"text":"這合作的 副秘書長 你如果在做議員 或是在做理貿的孫 白頭如果要再衝一個垃圾也不要衝下去"},{"start":478.442,"end":491.588,"text":"一直用帶頭抗爭那樣帶頭抗爭的人說 好 這不就是正義怎麼突突我們這裡的一個環境 都這樣說台東也一樣 台東的垃圾也不可以藏 藏了一堆我就這樣叫我們的環境部長去說 啊啦 我們把垃圾倒下去垃圾我們把整個都填進去 也不是辦法 把它燒燒的 把它美化他們唱歌你知道嗎 結果連垃圾他們都沒有"},{"start":505.607,"end":529.074,"text":"公文屏東說放合會也沒關係這個我就想都想不通啦但我今天是語重心長啦涉及到國家的重大政策我也希望說兩位兩位對這個可以啊我本來想說你會進一步來提供一點想法啦沒有想到這個部分你們是沒有涉及但是我覺得你們剛剛有一點回答不太好的地方視狀運的部分人家說總統該不會來"},{"start":533.666,"end":540.882,"text":"你們覺得在社會上全世界所有國家在這麼久以來總統去出席的你們有這樣的記錄別的國家"},{"start":548.76,"end":567.916,"text":"第一件事情我想快速回覆委員關於核廢的部分我一定把你的意見帶回去然後我會用最快的時間趕快回覆你那關於市壯域的部分委員其實這一次不管是中央還是地方其實中央挹注的預算來到三到四成以上"},{"start":568.556,"end":593.637,"text":"那至於總統的出席 過往的形式不見得是在開幕式我們大概 我有看過一些資料有些國家的總統也會跟著一起去跑步 運動等等的所以它形式很多元 你要看過嗎你真的要看過本來國家的總統去出席過嗎開幕式我這個真的是資料上面沒有特別顯示我可能還要再研究一下下但是他們的形式很不同 如果我看過的話"},{"start":594.818,"end":597.481,"text":"實在是大家都應該這樣說啦 大家期待總統來嘛來鬥老鹹嘛 總統老時間來好事情嘛啊如果不來 這就不一定要強制總統去啊 啊也有副總統去啊我怎麼知道你這條鴿子 鴿子 這條鴿子 鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子鴿子�"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":559,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（15時11分）3分鐘？我2分就好了！","謝謝主席，遵照主席的命令……"],["主席：是你講的！"],["莊委員瑞雄：我簡單問一下就好，兩位副秘書長請上臺。"],["主席：請兩位副秘，謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：兩位副秘書長好。我剛才看吳宗憲召委這樣「哀哀叫」、「艱苦剝剝」，怎樣叫都叫不來，你覺得很沒有面子，你怎麼會沒面子？我們司法及法制委員會最「漏氣」的，你以為是你叫不來，但至少人家還有跟你請假，我的喔，他剛才在「譙」不是在「譙」什麼總統府，總統府潘秘書長有跟你請假嘛，對不對？國安會沒來嘛，有請假嗎？也有跟你請假，算不錯的了，我羨慕死你了，我跟你講，周萬連來都不來，連給我請個假、打個電話都沒有，別「哀」了啦，我們兩個苦難兄弟啦！","昨天是520，是總統就職一周年，這一年看起來也是風風雨雨啦，我要就教兩位的就是，其實大家都看到朝野是攻防激烈，當然也是對立的非常嚴重，這影響到的就是一些法案的通過及預算的凍結啦，大選過後到現在，第一年的行政團隊算是走得也滿辛苦！我先詢問一下何副秘，這一年來你有什麼樣的感想？你覺得怎麼樣可以讓整個政府更精進？"],["何副秘書長志偉：我想這個部分還是要多聽專業委員的想法跟意見，但是我覺得在這一年的時間以來，我認為國際社會越來越喜歡臺灣，也更重視臺灣，在此時此刻，我認為朝野的團結非常重要，一起讓臺灣在變動的國際環境當中走一個更穩定、更安定且更前瞻的路，謝謝委員的垂詢。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你的這個回答等於是在對外宣示而已，我是請問你，就你所看到應該檢討的地方啦，不是說什麼……更團結，本來每一個國家都要更團結，我是說就你的觀察，你覺得我們政府哪一些地方該精進，你現在是叫在野黨要精進……"],["何副秘書長志偉：不敢、不敢！"],["莊委員瑞雄：我是說我們自己政府要怎麼精進啦！"],["何副秘書長志偉：我想這也是要聽委員的，委員有什麼想法，我記錄下來，我繼續學習。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你實在不錯、有進步。"],["何副秘書長志偉：感謝，謝謝你。"],["莊委員瑞雄：徐副秘書長，你的看法怎麼樣？說的實際一點啦！"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：我看法跟志偉副秘看法一樣。"],["莊委員瑞雄：「𠢕」啦！你們兩個今天都是來討錢而已啦，但也很好，也很好！"],["何副秘書長志偉：拜託喔！"],["莊委員瑞雄：昨天大家也都很清楚，立法院通過了公投案，就是核三的這個部分，我不曉得就這個議題，總統府裡面有沒有任何的討論，我看總統府也發表了一些看法，對於整個核三到底要不要延役，提到的是核安無虞、核廢料有解、社會上有共識，這當然是一個基本前提。但我要問的就是，對於這個部分，你們總統府有去討論嗎？還是國安會會不會去討論到這個議題？這涉及到國安喔，我為什麼這樣講？譬如2011年3月11號福島核災發生的時候，我們那時候看到的是全世界差不多都對日本核食採取限制進口，日本人也「哀哀叫」嘛，是哪五個縣市，你們還記得吧？你們有人知道嗎？我問你們這個是有原因的，福島當然就首當其衝，它的農產、水產，甚至畜牧，全部都被全世界抵制；茨城在旁邊，櫪木、群馬，還有一個最遠的千葉縣，有夠倒楣的，千葉縣到福島差不多將近三百公里，距離兩、三百公里。我特別這樣講，如果是核三的話，用311福島這樣一個核災事變來看，如果以將近三百公里的距離來計算會到臺灣哪裡，你們知道嗎？差不多到哪裡，你們知道嗎？國安耶，開什麼玩笑，我這不是隨便問的，最少差不多到苗栗啦，到苗栗代表什麼意思，你知道嗎？就是說核三萬一有任何一個事故發生，萬一啦，大家都不希望發生，但如果發生事故了，以福島的案例來看，我們的農產品一樣，農產、水產、畜產全部都不能出去了，所以這個問題是非常非常的嚴重。","本席昨天一直在講說，過去40年，國民黨在我們國家公園的旁邊放了兩顆反應爐，40年過去了，我們以為屏東可以解除這樣的災難了，為這個國家貢獻那麼久了，沒有想到又來一個白色的民眾黨，提了一個案又要繼續再延役，所以我昨天才會下一個註解：藍白在我們臺灣，對我們屏東來講，真的不是什麼好東西！重點是說，萬一啦，如果這個公投到時候真的通過了之後，產生的衝擊會那麼大，總統府對這方面到底有沒有去做任何的沙盤推演？你們兩個有聽到過嗎？有就說有、沒有說沒有，沒關係啊！"],["何副秘書長志偉：委員，你的問政跟質詢，我們都很關心，但是目前就這一塊，我自己個人沒有這個業務的職掌，所以我可能要很謹慎，是否可以允許我一點時間讓我去問，好不好？拜託。"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實這個也不用問啦，你也當過立委，這是一個良心的問題，會通過這個就是別人的孩子死不完啦！對於這個問題，臺北的觀點跟南部的觀點會完全不一樣啦！為什麼他不弄核一、核二？如果是核一、核二的話，任何的核電廠只要發生核災，20公里內的人全部都要遷走，30公里內的人都要避難。核災一發生，常常會因為地形、風向或下雨，所造成的影響會很大，日本到現在還哇哇叫，日本現在還認為我們是對他貿易歧視喔，對那五個縣市的食品，我們現在還要它提供安全證明及輻射檢測，為了國人的安全嘛！","2022年，我們政府開放之後，國民黨一直都在「譙」民進黨政府，但現在他們說核三要延役，當然延役不代表核三會怎麼樣，但是重點就是說，一個負責任的政府，對於核廢料沒有能力去處理的話，憑什麼跟人家說要繼續用這個核電廠？任何一個縣市，只要有垃圾場的，大家都帶頭抗爭啦，何志偉副秘書長在擔任議員或是立委的時候，北投如果說要再弄一個垃圾掩埋場，你一定會帶頭抗爭的啊！帶頭抗爭時會說這才叫做正義，怎麼能荼毒我們這裡的環境？都這樣說的，臺東也一樣，臺東的垃圾掩埋場弄了一大堆，我就邀請我們環境部長過去幫忙他們，垃圾一直堆的滿滿的也不是辦法，把它燒一燒、美化一下，他們高興得不得了。連垃圾他們都不要了，但是卻說我們屏東放核廢料沒關係，這個我就想都想不通了，但我今天是語重心長啦！涉及到國家的重大政策，我也希望兩位對於這個議題，我原本以為你們會進一步來提供一點想法，沒有想到這個部分你們沒有涉及。但是我覺得你們剛剛有一點回答得不太好的地方，就是在世壯運的部分人家說總統怎麼沒來，你們有沒有去查過全世界好幾個國家，這麼久以來有總統出席的，別的國家有這樣的紀錄嗎？來，何副秘。"],["何副秘書長志偉：第一件事情我想快速回復委員，關於核廢的部分，我一定把你的意見帶回去，然後我會用最快的時間趕快回復你。","關於世壯運的部分，這一次不管是中央還是地方，其實中央挹注的預算來到三至四成以上。至於總統的出席，過往的形式不見得是在開幕式，我有看過一些資料，有些國家的總統也會跟著一起去跑步、運動等等，所以它形式很多元。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你曾經看過嗎？你真的曾經看過別的國家的總統出席過嗎？"],["何副秘書長志偉：開幕式，這個在資料上面沒有特別顯示，我可能還要再研究一下，但是他們的形式很不同。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我這樣看起來，應該這麼說，大家期待總統來嘛！來湊熱鬧嘛！總統如果有時間來是好事情，如果沒來不一定要強制總統去，也有副總統去啊！我不知道你們怎麼會對這件事解釋得「哩哩嚕嚕」，解釋到被追打。"],["何副秘書長志偉：副總統有去，還有地主。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對，這都是你們自己要加強的地方，好，謝謝。"],["何副秘書長志偉：感謝，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員。","再下一位請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王鴻薇","羅智強","吳思瑤","王義川","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","陳培瑜","沈發惠"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於總統府預算凍結項目共 5案；二、處理114年度中央政府總\n預算關於國家安全會議預算凍結項目共4案","agenda_id":"1145202_00003"}}},{"id":"161778","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161778","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db590a765d8ae59929e11a54d16b4ae569f45a94dd28b54b383b15e738d91a4af85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"15:01:14 - 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謝謝主席我先請副秘書長哪一位副秘書長總統府副秘書長今天我們要處理國安會嗎有 國安會也有在今天同時處理國安會啊就是看大家覺得對 進行尋答OK好那請總統府好了防衛委員好"},{"start":39.076,"end":48.208,"text":"今天我們副秘書長展現了人盯人的做法但是我必須要講"},{"start":49.998,"end":74.216,"text":"還是要譴責一下 我們兩大秘書長都不來立法院顯然是不重視不重視整個的立法院 也不重視預算我必須講 我們一直在講說要強化國家任性 國家任性但是呢 我們現在整個的總統 總統府乃至於國安會很任性啊是很任性的 想來就來 想不來就不來"},{"start":76.072,"end":103.252,"text":"不但是今天立法院的預算凍結我想在上個星期5月17號舉行的雙北市壯運其實最近的成績看到有很多百歲的人類還可以有好的成績八十幾歲也有好的成績激勵了非常非常多的長者很多年輕人看了也都非常感動"},{"start":104.481,"end":132.088,"text":"結果5月17號我想請問一下台北市早在2月25號就主辦單位2月25號就來邀請總統我想佛明爽應該知道可是呢我們總統府一直到5月15號才告知說總統國事繁忙不出席好 你繁忙不出席所以其實整個的維安也因此而降級了"},{"start":132.788,"end":157.097,"text":"沒有想到5月16號早上8點主辦單位公布黃仁勛先生擔任整個的聖火就是其中的一個聖火手之一馬上在同天5月16號總統府又立刻來派出蕭美琴副總統去參加市狀運但是5月17號當天就開幕所以整個維安"},{"start":161.579,"end":168.916,"text":"又開始要整個升級因為國家元首 副總統來 總就是這個規格是不一樣的"},{"start":170.157,"end":194.776,"text":"所以我想請教一下為什麼我們現在總統也好總統府秘書長也好國安會秘書長也好可以如此的任性想不來就不來想來就來當作兒戲嗎我想請問一下總統當天說5月17號國政繁忙其實我有特別去查當天5月17號總統的行程總統府的公開行程"},{"start":198.659,"end":217.634,"text":"事實上講沒有公開行程但是當天下午有公佈說總統有接見外賓啦那是上午的時間接下來我們看不到任何怎麼樣的國政繁忙難道賴總統他有跟川普通電話我們不知道嗎"},{"start":218.991,"end":233.685,"text":"繁忙到像這個視壯運你也沒有任何公開行程啊你也沒有到哪裡去視察啊還是說真的有跟美國的政要川普通電話而我們不知道呢機密到我們不知道"},{"start":234.506,"end":263.028,"text":"所以這樣子的一個很任性的行為我真的覺得要適可而止要對某一些的活動對於立法院要給予一定的尊重另外我想請教一下因為這邊有特別來解凍特別講到媒體那這裡面還特別提到就是我們有總統府LINE的官方帳號"},{"start":264.56,"end":284.78,"text":"最近 副秘書長 也有一個大錯字吧應該是兩個大錯字 兢兢業業 是吧這個 我是覺得有點落差啦但是 重點是 我想請教一下每一次總統的週年 就職週年"},{"start":286.876,"end":295.766,"text":"總統的談話洞見觀瞻請問一下在今年有多少國內的媒體國內的媒體有向總統發出邀約請問一下國內的媒體其實陸陸續續都有在邀約他應該很多吧"},{"start":304.232,"end":319.088,"text":"有的這裡說很多因為總統的就職週年總統每一句話不管是兩岸的國際的經濟的國防等等都是很重要的"},{"start":321.089,"end":341.604,"text":"那可以告訴我嗎你們接受媒體的這個邀約一定有有多少家屬我講的是本國媒體家屬的部分馬上跟委員報告我想紅衛委員那外國媒體呢紅衛委員您自己以前也是媒體對外國媒體呢這個我問的都是事實這沒有什麼好好保密的嘛因為我為什麼要問這個問題我為什麼要再問這個問題因為這一次在至早到目前為止"},{"start":349.707,"end":377.18,"text":"昨天520嘛今天521嘛到目前為止我只看到總統接受了一家外媒日本經濟新聞一家本國媒體財訊另外還有最近大家提到的因為認為總統失言把台灣當作一個可交易的幫他當成公司併購的叫做敏迪選獨對不對他是一個podcast"},{"start":378.735,"end":402.5,"text":"然後還有嗎我有沒有遺漏的沒有遺漏怎麼只會這樣少少的媒體呢我就想說顯然應該有很多媒體會要邀訪總統好 我要講的是你們今天要讓我們解凍是因為呢宣傳非常重要沒錯 總統的宣傳很重要大外宣 大內宣都很重要但是如果有很多媒體願意來幫總統宣傳"},{"start":405.08,"end":428.01,"text":"如果照您所講 很多媒體都有來邀約為什麼到目前為止 我剛講說我有沒有遺漏 沒有遺漏怎麼就是只有這麼少數的外媒一家 本媒一家 然後一個podcast當然舉行一個記者會 啊 沒有了啊怎麼這樣子呢這麼好的一個大內宣大外宣機會 為什麼要這樣措施呢"},{"start":430.071,"end":453.604,"text":"其實針對台灣的國際形象 洪文委員您過去一直在幫忙也很感謝啦那近期賴總統的專訪等等總共會有五次那我想一任總統他在不同階段跟時期會有不同的露出那我們這一次其實我想洪文委員很謝謝你日本的年輕的世代對於台灣很好奇"},{"start":454.785,"end":476.16,"text":"同時在這一次獨賣電視的流量也好反應都很正面那我想過去我們朝野一起努力那紅衛委員也很幫忙那我們以往是全球各個五大洲那這一次比較focus在日本這一塊那反應成效都很好那我想接下來還有一些不斷不同的露出"},{"start":477.361,"end":496.02,"text":"為什麼特別去講這一個這當然是因為今天正好五二一因為總統就職週年那你們又特別提到這個解凍案裡面把這個有關於沒宣的這一塊作為也算是你們重點那所以我要講的就是說其實有很多的宣傳不一定要由政府花錢嘛"},{"start":496.701,"end":500.504,"text":"就是當然總統會比較辛苦一點 幕僚辛苦一點要幫他準備 幫他猜題 或者一般來講媒體都會把題目提供給你要幫他準備 不要讓總統失言 讓總統講話要有內容等等那當然不要有錯字 什麼兢兢業業這一類的"},{"start":515.97,"end":538.895,"text":"那我覺得這個就要多多去把握嘛那我覺得這一次讓我感覺就是啊怎麼怎麼就這幾家媒體啊當然你要去嘗試一些非過去的這個傳統媒體我覺得也很好但是呢如果除非啊除非我最後要問除非有媒體很多媒體都不要來邀約了我也不想邀約啊有什麼好講講你就這樣子那如果還是有媒體邀約就應該把握而不是只是想要花錢而已好不好"},{"start":545.276,"end":567.974,"text":"洪文委員也快速跟您做一分鐘的報告這一次新聞發布裡面因為視聽的方式開始改變了所以我們很期待有聽樂平權那我想這幾年朝野一起努力那台灣被全世界在關注我們有直播那還有一些手語也好或各國的翻譯這都放在我們這一次新聞發布中心的預算"},{"start":569.155,"end":576.741,"text":"副秘書長 我真的覺得你也很辛苦啊因為我知道你今天一直就是要拜訪我們在野的黨團這個精神可嘉賴總統要給你加分但是呢 我覺得你要去講什麼過兩個禮拜啊 大家就要餓肚子我覺得大可不必啦"},{"start":588.169,"end":601.598,"text":"不用太誇張啦好不好因為基本上你看我們這個召委很主動的來排解凍案早上休息但是下午立刻排解凍案都非常大家一起來配合好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":520,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（15時1分）謝謝主席，我先請副秘書長。"],["主席：哪一位副秘？"],["王委員鴻薇：總統府副秘書長。"],["主席：請總統府副秘書長。"],["王委員鴻薇：今天我們要處理國安會嗎？"],["主席：有，國安會也有在。"],["王委員鴻薇：今天同時處理國安會啊？"],["主席：就是看大家覺得……"],["翁委員曉玲：先詢答啦！"],["主席：對，進行詢答。"],["王委員鴻薇：OK，我請總統府好了。"],["何副秘書長志偉：鴻薇委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：好。今天我們副秘書長展現了人盯人的作法，但是我還是要譴責一下，我們兩大秘書長都不來立法院，顯然是不重視整個立法院，也不重視預算！","我必須講喔，我們一再講說要強化國家韌性、國家韌性，但是呢，我們現在整個總統、總統府乃至於國安會很任性啊，是很任性的想來就來、想不來就不來，不但是今天立法院的預算凍結，在上個星期5月17號舉行的雙北世壯運，我們看到有很多百歲人瑞有好的成績，八十幾歲的也有好成績，激勵了非常非常多的長者，很多年輕人看了也都非常感動。其實臺北市（主辦單位）早在2月25號就來邀請總統，我想副秘書長應該知道，可是我們總統府一直到5月15號才告知：總統國政繁忙，不出席。好，因為你繁忙不出席，所以整個維安也因此而降級了。沒有想到5月16號早上8點，主辦單位公布黃仁勳先生擔任傳遞聖火的聖火手之一，馬上在同天（5月16號）總統府又立刻派出蕭美琴副總統去參加世壯運，但是5月17號就要開幕了，所以整個維安又開始要升級，因為國家元首副總統來，規格就是不一樣的。所以我想請教一下，為什麼我們現在總統也好，總統府秘書長也好，國安會秘書長也好，可以如此的任性，想不來就不來、想來就來，當作兒戲嗎？請問一下，總統之前說5月17號國政繁忙，其實我有特別去查5月17號當天總統的行程，以總統府的公開行程來說，事實上並沒有公開行程，但是當天下午有公布說總統有接見外賓，那是上午的時間，接下來我們看不到任何怎麼樣的國政繁忙，難道賴總統有跟川普通電話我們不知道嗎？繁忙到像這個世壯運，你也沒有任何公開行程啊，你也沒有到哪裡去視察啊，還是說真的有跟美國的政要川普通電話而我們不知道呢？機密到我們不知道。所以這樣一個很任性的行為，我真的覺得要適可而止！對於某一些活動、對於立法院要給予一定的尊重。","另外，我想請教一下，因為今天要進行預算解凍，特別講到媒體，這裡面還特別提到我們有總統府LINE的官方帳號。副秘書長，最近有看到二個大錯字，寫的是「競競業業」，是吧？這個我是覺得有點「掉漆」啦！但重點是我想請教一下，每一次在總統就職周年時的總統談話動見觀瞻，請問一下，今年有多少國內媒體向總統發出邀約？請問一下？"],["何副秘書長志偉：國內的媒體其實陸陸續續都有在邀約他……"],["王委員鴻薇：應該很多吧？"],["何副秘書長志偉：有的、有的。"],["王委員鴻薇：照理說很多，因為總統就職周年所講的每一句話，不管是兩岸的、國際的、經濟的、國防的等等，都是很重要的，可以告訴我嗎？你們接受媒體的邀約是一定有的，請問多少家？我講的是本國媒體。"],["何副秘書長志偉：家數的部分，馬上跟委員報告，我想鴻薇委員……"],["王委員鴻薇：那外國媒體呢？"],["何副秘書長志偉：鴻薇委員，您自己以前也是媒體人……"],["王委員鴻薇：對、對、對，外國媒體呢？"],["何副秘書長志偉：因為……"],["王委員鴻薇：我問的都是事實，這沒有什麼好保密的嘛！我為什麼要問這個問題？因為這一次，至少到目前為止，昨天520、今天521，到目前為止，我只看到總統接受了一家外媒日本經濟新聞、一家本國媒體財訊，另外還有最近大家提到的，認為總統失言把臺灣當作一個可交易的、當成公司可併購的專訪，叫做敏迪選讀，對不對？他是一個Podcast，然後還有嗎？我有沒有遺漏的？沒有遺漏？怎麼只會這樣少少的媒體呢？我想的是應該有很多媒體會要邀訪總統。","我要講的是，你們今天要讓我們解凍，是因為宣傳非常重要，沒錯，總統的宣傳很重要，大外宣、大內宣都很重要，但是如果有很多媒體願意來幫總統宣傳，如果照您所講，很多媒體都有來邀約，為什麼到目前為止，我剛問過有沒有遺漏，並沒有遺漏，怎麼就只有這麼少數的媒體呢？外媒一家、本媒一家，然後一個Podcast，當然還有舉行一個記者會，然後就沒有了，怎麼這樣子呢？這麼好的一個大內宣、大外宣的機會，會為什麼要這樣錯失呢？"],["何副秘書長志偉：其實針對臺灣的國際形象，鴻薇委員您過去也一直在幫忙，也很感謝。近期賴總統的專訪等等總共會有5次，我想一任總統在不同階段跟時期會有不同的露出，這一次其實，鴻薇委員，很謝謝你，日本的年輕世代對於臺灣很好奇，同時在這一次讀賣電視的流量也好，反映都很正面，我想過去我們朝野一起努力，鴻薇委員也很幫忙，我們以往是全球、各個五大洲，這一次比較focus在日本這一塊，反映成效都很好，我想接下來還有一些不同的露出時段。"],["王委員鴻薇：副秘書長，我為什麼特別要講這一個，當然是因為今天正好521，因為總統就職週年，然後你們在這個解凍案裡面又特別把有關於媒宣的這一塊算是你們的重點，所以我要講的就是，其實有很多的宣傳不一定要由政府花錢嘛！"],["何副秘書長志偉：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：當然總統會比較辛苦一點，幕僚辛苦一點，要幫他準備、幫他猜題，一般來講，媒體都會把題目提供給你，要幫他準備，不要讓總統失言，讓總統講話要有內容等等，當然不要有錯字，像是「競競業業」這一類的，我覺得這個就要多多去把握嘛！但這一次給我的感覺就是怎麼就這幾家媒體啊，當然你要去嘗試一些非過去的傳統媒體，我覺得也很好，但是如果……除非啦，我最後要問，除非很多媒體都不來邀約了、不想邀約了，認為有什麼好講的，再講也就這樣子，如果還是有媒體邀約，就應該把握，而不是只是想要花錢而已，好不好？"],["何副秘書長志偉：我懂，鴻薇委員，快速跟您做一分鐘的報告。這一次新聞發布裡面，因為視聽的方式開始改變了，所以我們很期待有聽閱平權，我想這幾年朝野一起努力，臺灣被全世界在關注，我們有直播，還有一些手語或各國的翻譯，這都放在我們這一次新聞發布的預算，所以再度拜託……"],["王委員鴻薇：好啦，副秘書長，我真的覺得你也很辛苦，因為我知道你今天一直就是要拜訪我們在野的黨團，這個精神可嘉，賴總統要給你加分，但是我覺得你又去講什麼過兩個禮拜大家就要餓肚子，我覺得大可不必啦，不用太誇張啦，好不好？"],["何副秘書長志偉：是真的啦。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為基本上，你看我們召委很主動的來排解凍案，早上休息，但是下午立刻繼續開會審查解凍案，都非常……"],["何副秘書長志偉：感謝。"],["王委員鴻薇：大家一起來配合，好不好？謝謝。"],["何副秘書長志偉：謝謝鴻薇委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請莊瑞雄委員發言……你問3分鐘就好了！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王鴻薇","羅智強","吳思瑤","王義川","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","陳培瑜","沈發惠"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於總統府預算凍結項目共 5案；二、處理114年度中央政府總\n預算關於國家安全會議預算凍結項目共4案","agenda_id":"1145202_00003"}}},{"id":"161777","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161777","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db7dc6ec8220605ba5e11a54d16b4ae569f45a94dd28b54b380a24d4c92cf601975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"14:55:02 - 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謝謝主席 我們請國安會和副秘書長麻煩副秘書長好 副秘書長好你好 你這個秘書長沒要來 要提早跟我們這個召委講因為這個正在擺 就擺的會啦你們就昨天才去 這樣沒什麼誠意啦上禮拜你們應該就接到通知了吧"},{"start":39.158,"end":66.499,"text":"我們上禮拜我們就都知道了 展現一下誠意 因為你去給人家凍結也沒有多少錢就不夠這樣可以又沒開到花 你想我們這個立法院的秘書長那周亂來啊他是就叫人家投機 韓國的 寫一張批來的 說我們不去這是他叫人家投機寫 你不用 你就下次排會的時候啊 按照慣例該怎麼做就怎麼做 好不好"},{"start":68.89,"end":81.576,"text":"針對這個解凍案裡面有一個第四個案子啊這個凍結一般行政人士會政務人員待遇十萬元這到底是什麼東西呢凍結十萬元這個會解釋一下這個應該原來是翁委員的案子那主要是翁委員那個時候對本會"},{"start":98.712,"end":120.926,"text":"那個不是啊 我現在是說為什麼是10萬元啊這個我對當時後來決定就是用10萬元本來好像沒有要動 後來又動動10萬元但我們也就是按照這個數目來辦理"},{"start":123.946,"end":144.871,"text":"那當天有沒有另外的同仁在的可不可以解釋一下當時這十萬是百分比還是怎樣因為你們的解釋是六個人變七個人國安諮詢委員嘛然後怎麼會比例是比例造成十萬元是不是他好像不是因為人數變動而是有沒有同仁可以把當時的情境講一下"},{"start":151.499,"end":168.752,"text":"委員好我是人事主任陳佩婷跟您報告就是當時我們在編列諮詢委員的人數預算的時候是從六人變成七人對那是符合我們組織法上面的規定那因為當時增加多一位那就是翁委員還有"},{"start":170.273,"end":185.418,"text":"當時在場的幾位委員對於說為什麼多編列一位諮詢委員這樣子有一些顧慮所以希望我們就為什麼多編列的部分講清楚所以才會有一個十萬塊的預算保留就一數一數就對了不是說給十萬就對了"},{"start":189.074,"end":217.284,"text":"就是說原來六個為什麼變七個那法定就是可以提七個當時就是總統只有提六個今年度要變七個所以變了七個的預算那一戶而已好 這個第一個這看起來沒有什麼問題啦那第二個案子啊第二個案子有一個諮詢業務費用一百萬元那三個月提出專案報告並經同意後取得動資"},{"start":219.417,"end":243.138,"text":"那這個當時的決議是要提一個專案報告那你們的回答是說這個報告是幕僚作業寫完的報告是給總統決策參考具有一些機敏性時不宜對外公布按照這些相關的法令你們就不宜公開這樣要怎麼解凍"},{"start":247.318,"end":271.135,"text":"那個我們大概是把我們出國的哪些國別大概會議的次數跟人數有在報告裡面爐列就是簡單講就是我們用這個錢並沒有亂用基本上還是主要是出國去開會好那我請教一下你們這些出國的這些費用按照國家別因為一定有預定的國家才編得出這些數字嗎"},{"start":272.276,"end":287.329,"text":"因為不同的城市有不同的生活費嘛然後有不同的這個交通差旅的費用嘛這是國家規定的好那這一個就是你們現在認定你們就是交出這一些就叫專案報告了是不是包委員說實話我們出國的專案報告通常都是上一個簽給總統"},{"start":296.519,"end":312.905,"text":"那因為我們是憲政上面來講總統諮詢機關我們不是行政機關所以我們那個報告就不變公開所以就是說實際上什麼時候到什麼地方去開一個什麼樣的會"},{"start":315.272,"end":319.596,"text":"這個在這個定義裡頭不會是公開資訊不是不是公開資訊所以當時這個委員會要求這個凍結這一個相關的費用然後要請你們提專案報告並經同意這個專案報告的定義啊"},{"start":333.188,"end":352.096,"text":"你們今天就把它定義你們今天已經算題專案報告了對不對是就是大致那個報告裡面就寫就是你們這裡頭寫的是多少人次然後這個參加幾場的會議然後總共累積是幾天嘛這就是你們定義的專案報告還有區域"},{"start":353.2,"end":354.984,"text":"還有區域至於那個區域是什麼國家什麼樣的場合你們也就沒辦法講了好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":487,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（14時55分）謝謝主席，我們請國安會副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘。"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：委員好。"],["王委員義川：副秘書長好。以後你們的秘書長如果不來的話，要提早跟我們召委說，因為這個是上禮拜就安排好的議程，你們昨天才去，這樣也沒什麼誠意啦！上禮拜你們應該就接到通知了嘛？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：是。"],["王委員義川：因為我們上禮拜就知道有安排這個議程了，所以你們要展現一下誠意，因為你們被凍結的預算也沒有多少錢，卻搞成這樣，早上又沒開到會。像我們立法院秘書長周萬來，他是叫他老闆韓國瑜寫一封信說他不會來列席，他是叫他的老闆寫，你們不用，你們就是在下次排會的時候，按照慣例，該怎麼做就怎麼做，好不好？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：是。"],["王委員義川：針對國安會的解凍案，其中第四案是凍結一般行政─人事費─政務人員待遇10萬元，這到底是什麼東西？怎麼會凍結10萬元，這個可不可以解釋一下？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：這個原來是翁委員的提案，主要是翁委員那個時候對本會……"],["王委員義川：不是啦！我現在問的是為什麼是10萬元啦！"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：這個喔，因為後來的決定就是凍10萬元，本來好像沒有要凍，後來又凍10萬元，但我們也就是按照這個數目來辦理。"],["王委員義川：現在有沒有當天在場的同仁，可不可以解釋一下當時這10萬是以百分比來凍結的還是怎樣？因為你們的解釋是國安諮詢委員從6個人變7個人，但怎麼會凍結10萬元，是要凍結某個比率然後算出凍結10萬元，是不是？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：好像不是因為人數變動，而是……"],["王委員義川：有沒有同仁可以把當時的情境講一下？"],["陳主任珮婷：委員好，我是人事主任陳珮婷，跟您報告。當時我們在編列諮詢委員人數的預算的時候，是從6人變成7人，那是符合我們組織法上面的規定，因為當時多增加了一位，翁委員及當時在場的幾位委員對於為什麼多編列一位諮詢委員有一些顧慮，希望我們就為什麼多編列的部分講清楚，所以才會有10萬塊的預算保留。"],["王委員義川：喔，就意思意思啦，不是多那一個人多了10萬就對了？"],["陳主任珮婷：是。"],["王委員義川：就是原來6個為什麼變7個，法定就是可以提7個，一開始總統只有提6個，今年度要變7個，所以編了7個人的預算，就這樣一句話而已啊！好，這是第一個，這看起來沒有什麼問題啦！","第二個案子是凍結「諮詢研究業務」100萬元，於3個月提出專案報告並經同意後，始得動支。當時的決議是要提專案報告，你們的回答是說各項研究屬於幕僚作業，寫完的報告是給總統決策前參考，具有一些機敏性，實不宜對外公布，按照一些相關的法令，你們就不予公開。這樣要怎麼辦？這樣要怎麼解凍？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：我們大概是把我們出國的哪些國別、會議次數跟人數有在報告裡面臚列，簡單講，就是我們用這個錢並沒有亂用，基本上主要是出國去開會。"],["王委員義川：好，那我請教一下，你們這些出國費用按照國家別，因為一定有預定要去的國家才編出這些預算數字嘛，因為不同的城市有不同的生活費，有不同的交通差旅費用，這個是國家規定的。對於這一筆預算的凍結，你們現在認定你們交出的這些就叫專案報告了，是不是？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：報告委員，說實話，我們出國的專案報告通常都是上一個簽給總統，因為我們就憲政上來講是總統的諮詢機關，我們不是行政機關，所以我們的那些報告就不便公開。"],["王委員義川：OK，所以就是說，實際上什麼時候到什麼地方去開一個什麼樣的會，在這個定義裡頭不會是公開資訊啦？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：不是。"],["王委員義川：不是公開資訊，所以當時委員會要求凍結這個相關費用，然後請你們提專案報告並經同意，這個專案報告的定義，你們認為今天提出的已經算是提專案報告了，對不對？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：是，在大的那個報告裡面有寫了。"],["王委員義川：OK，就是你們寫了多少人次、參加幾場會議、總共累計幾天，這就是你們定義的專案報告？"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：還有區域。"],["王委員義川：還有區域？對，還有區域。至於那個區域是什麼國家、什麼樣的場合，你們也……"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：就沒辦法講。"],["王委員義川：就沒辦法講喔？好，謝謝。"],["徐副秘書長斯儉：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位麻煩王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王鴻薇","羅智強","吳思瑤","王義川","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","陳培瑜","沈發惠"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於總統府預算凍結項目共 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現在請吳宗憲委員質詢所以我們麻煩兩位複密好 那首先我先謝謝"},{"start":20.882,"end":46.072,"text":"何富密至少在前一天還有跟我提到說要來要討論這個秘書長沒辦法到的事情那至於國安會的秘書長就是也都不來我也不是我覺得這不是一個處理事情的方式更何況我早上其實有在講組織法第8條寫得很清楚國安會就是要向立法院負責"},{"start":49.349,"end":68.284,"text":"秘書長總是不來而且不來也都不聯絡那我要跟大家報告一下到現在此刻為止其實兩位秘書長也都沒有一通電話過來過那我想說預算這個東西啊民進黨以及很多親鳥已經拿這個東西已經大做文章半年了"},{"start":69.105,"end":77.492,"text":"中間更有非常多造謠 後來被打臉澄清的事情那已經玩了半年的東西 然後之前我們又遇到"},{"start":79.758,"end":102.9,"text":"坊間的傳說以及公務體系內的傳說說卓榮泰要求大家不要把解凍案送來送到立法院那後來突然間又叫大家把解凍案送來那今天總統府的解凍案送過來其實我也是很善意的趕快排進來我們希望幫大家解凍因為我知道總統府的預算裡面還有包括更多跟總統府"},{"start":103.4,"end":123.99,"text":"有關的譬如說憲兵的一些費用的支出或一些必要的水電支出所以我很誠意的希望趕快排進來來幫大家解決這個問題結果我們排了以後總府秘書長也不願意來然後國安會的秘書長也不願意來那我也是"},{"start":124.858,"end":147.408,"text":"很誠意的跟兩位副秘書長在早上也報告了而且我其實昨天就有講了啦就說那你今天如果真的有藥物不能來那是不是可以來一個小時就好比如說九點開始然後你十點開始請假那你至少來一個小時有些委員需要問問題的可以問得到那也不行啊然後再來就是說"},{"start":148.632,"end":164.049,"text":"那我說好 那療癒秘書長何時有空我們會議可以專門為你排你有空的時候麻煩你來 也不來那這個就不是你因公無法道了我想這個就是不會送來就對了啦看你不好不會送來啦"},{"start":164.554,"end":191.541,"text":"我覺得就是這樣那至少我剛剛為什麼說感謝何副秘書長這何副秘書長還有那個嫌秘書長的意思還先來我們好好的溝通了一下那吳釗燮秘書長是連甩都不甩我們那如果對於說預算解凍這個事情這個是你們要用的預算然後我們這麼誠意的幫你排了然後你還是愛來不來我覺得"},{"start":192.905,"end":214.402,"text":"這做法就不對 那我剛剛所論述的每一件事實都是這兩天發生的事實那我也只能說 立法院 市長法治委員會已經用盡了所有的善意 希望好好的處理預算但是我們面對的是 他就是不甩你然後對外就說我的錢都被卡死 我無法施政 藍白爛三 爛凍結預算"},{"start":216.567,"end":243.916,"text":"那我希望全國人民看清楚這些嘴臉你連來都不來我告訴你法條的依據你應該到立法院來要該來負責你給我回一句說憲政慣例我不用來那你憲政慣例是憲政的哪一條慣例你請你告訴我你到今天也都還不告訴我那這樣以後我面對民意代表我的邏輯就是憲政慣例啊我為什麼甩你所以原來當官是這樣在當的"},{"start":246.974,"end":267.016,"text":"我希望說全民看清楚吧我想請教一下何副秘書長因為總統有提到說要來提一個國安情勢的簡報他昨天也有提到說希望政黨合作"},{"start":267.717,"end":287.629,"text":"那我們當然第一個講到矛盾的點是 你一邊說要政黨合作 另外一方面你又在那邊支持大罷免然後一直在歡呼這件事情 那我想請教你一下那既然他說要政黨合作 那又提了一個國安情勢報告那請問一下 他要的這個國安情勢報告的內容到底是什麼"},{"start":288.428,"end":308.196,"text":"我想跟委員報告現在所有的幕僚作業正在進行當中因為是昨天才正式的對外公布那因為我想各位委員都很專業也許大家針對他想要看到的報告或是哪個方面我們這邊都可以互相的溝通並且後續可以再讓幕僚作業來製作來產出那是抱歉是"},{"start":312.037,"end":326.997,"text":"沒有啦 因為我想 就是 好吧 那現在是幕僚還在處理啦但是我想要提的一個就是 我雖然說到政壇才一年多但我覺得政治的真諦是在於溝通跟協調我想這個大家都不會否認 而不是說造謠跟抹紅"},{"start":328.078,"end":350.751,"text":"但這段時間我看到的就是講不贏你 法治上講不贏你就給你扣紅帽子就扣你說你是中共同路人或什麼這種東西這段時間我們每天都在遇到那我也只能就是說跟複密報告一個點就是其實總統身為民進黨黨主席他也是國家的總統那他有權利去任命這些行政院院長還有大法官所以"},{"start":351.872,"end":378.431,"text":"我至少到目前為止我只有聽到總統說他希望在執政跟在野大家好好的團結合作和諧的來從事國政可是並沒有看到一個實際的作為那我看到的只是司法上面的一些雙標以及施政上面的一些雙標甚至就我剛剛講到的他一方面說你刪我預算你爛凍結我預算但是我們排了解凍案就秘書長又不來"},{"start":379.352,"end":396.27,"text":"然後我們卑微的 不要說卑微啦我沒有講說 我說配合你的時間你什麼時間有空 我什麼時間都可以為你而開晚上12點也可以 但是他還是不來我說真的 我當召委 我今天訂的這個議程我連一通電話我都沒接到這兩位偉大的秘書長"},{"start":397.967,"end":424.637,"text":"我們今天好歹我是民意代表但我連一通兩位的電話我都沒有接到今天早上麻煩複密然後跟秘書長聯繫但我到現在我什麼資訊都沒有就空等了那麼久但是我們今天是在為兩位所帶領的機關在想辦法幫你解凍要拿預算給你用結果你卻這樣子處理這個是我沒有辦法理解的地方啦當然我也覺得"},{"start":426.024,"end":455.069,"text":"秘書長爛這東西不能讓基層的這些憲兵等等的這些人來吃苦或是讓總統府的公務員吃苦我們不捨得讓這些基層因為長官的爛而必須要吃苦所以很多時候我們不得不去救一些預算部分我們只能說很多苦我們就吞下來你今天不學我們我們就吞下來但我沒有辦法說讓那些士官兵在那裡然後連飯都沒得吃"},{"start":456.155,"end":484.181,"text":"然後冷氣沒得開然後像那個何富密跟我說他熱到都要中暑其實我都捨不得 捨不得何富密受這樣的苦但我也是很不屑不恥秘書長們做這種事情就因為他不屑民意機關這就是賴總統 賴政府執政之下帶領的這些高官們就是看不起不屑民意機關我們還叫做民主國家嗎這是我自己心中的一個感觸啦"},{"start":489.074,"end":509.739,"text":"我覺得之前賴總統有提到的那個賴17點以及我們這次他所希望做到的這個國安情勢簡報我們還是希望一件事情因為共敵案發生了這麼久我們還是搞不太清楚整個方向那但是這個東西"},{"start":511.226,"end":534.198,"text":"我們國家安全受到危害的時候其實不管每個人民或是立委們都很擔心這個事情所以我還是一個具體的建議啦我希望說檢報的內容能夠跟我們說明幾個點就是我希望第一個跟我們說明到底是發生了什麼事情還有什麼時候開始的那第二個就是說到底是這些"},{"start":535.198,"end":552.34,"text":"敵對的勢力是誰 機敏資料持有人 金手人 這個怎麼查核還有滲透的原因還有為什麼選擇這些人下手我想這個在我簡報上面都有還有最後你要怎麼解決這個問題尤其怎麼解決才是最重要因為我們不能容認國家在被"},{"start":554.15,"end":581.903,"text":"某些勢力不管是來自於境外或境內的人他去滲透國家的安全去破壞國家安全我想說這幾個東西要麻煩你們在將來的那個簡報裡面能夠都把這個東西能夠提起來能夠讓我們理解一下更何況這些共諜其實我們發現他們都還有在繳民進黨的黨費他其實就還是民進黨的黨員是發生事情之後才被開除的所以"},{"start":582.563,"end":608.734,"text":"我覺得當然我可以理解一個點就像上市櫃公司一樣大家要去查你的商業機密他當然要從那些技術人員那邊去滲透他不會去滲透外面的散戶所以這些人很大量的存在執政黨或者是執政黨的輔會黨團等等或是中央機關這個我可以理解這個是邏輯上是合邏輯的但是你應該還是要找出一個方法去解決"},{"start":610.543,"end":618.535,"text":"這還是要找一個方法去解決而不能放任這些人就繼續在裡面去侵害我們這個國家所以我想總統他真正要交代的"},{"start":620.101,"end":646.971,"text":"這共諜到底是怎麼樣這些人怎麼養成的而不是跟我們說我去搞了一個急難救助金就可以因為我覺得狀況不會是這麼low不會是他欠幾個錢他就會出賣靈魂給某些敵人我想不是這樣好 如果這個人可以用錢來打動的話你的敵人永遠可以出比你更高的價碼去鎖定那幾個特定人這絕對不是立了一個什麼急難救助金就可以解決問題"},{"start":648.371,"end":675.462,"text":"我不相信是這樣啦我相信如果你們認為的敵人是中國大陸的話以民進黨現在認定的敵人是中國大陸中國大陸絕對有辦法出更高的價碼去買通其他人所以這不是解決問題的方式請大家能夠真的找出問題來解決如果你是有心解決如果你不是把國家安全只是當作政治籌碼在那邊做政治攻擊的話如果你真心要解決國家安全受侵害的問題"},{"start":676.382,"end":703.253,"text":"請拿出正確的方式來做然後機要人員的查核是不是可以告訴我們過去問題出在哪裡那將來你怎麼改正因為這次有發生機要人員的問題然後發生長期都沒有被安全查核那這到底是包出在哪裡那有沒有需要立法院協助修法這也是麻煩你們能夠告訴我們一下否則啊 區區幾千塊美金幾萬塊你就把國家安全都出賣了"},{"start":703.993,"end":732.516,"text":"那我們也希望喔政府在查緝共諜的時候能夠像查辦國民黨涉犯的幽靈連署一樣到處大搜索大約談然後到處申請羈押我希望辦共諜能有像辦國民黨的這樣的決心跟這樣的力道哪怕是二分之一的力道也可以啦好好的辦共諜啦真正在讓這個國家陷於危險的是這些共諜啦真正是這些人啦而不是"},{"start":733.397,"end":762.826,"text":"我跟你講啦 違照文書我從以前到現在我都說是違法的我從來沒有說過它合法但它跟國家安全比起來共諜這麼嚴重你為什麼不好好的辦所以我還是希望國家能夠重視我們國家安全出了問題這件事情而不要在那邊講一些風涼話叫做沒有被滲透的才是真正有問題這種話都出來好那再麻煩那個何富密這邊能夠協助然後另外"},{"start":764.728,"end":783.02,"text":"官會這邊真的要麻煩您跟秘書長提醒一下請他去看一下官會的組織法不然請他找他友好的立委把官會組織法第八條修掉如果第八條沒有修掉的時候請依法行政麻煩你們請依法行政"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":471,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（14時41分）麻煩兩位副秘。","首先我先謝謝何副秘，至少在前一天還有跟我提到要討論秘書長沒辦法到的事情。至於國安會的秘書長就是都不來，我覺得這不是一個處理事情的方式啦，更何況我早上其實有在講，組織法第八條寫的很清楚，國安會就是要向立法院負責，但秘書長總是不來，而且不來也都不聯絡！我要跟大家報告一下，到現在此刻為止，其實兩位秘書長也都沒有一通電話過來。","有關於預算的部分，民進黨以及很多青鳥已經拿這個東西大作文章半年了，中間更有非常多造謠後來被打臉澄清的事情，這是已經玩了半年的東西！之前我們又遇到坊間的傳說以及公務體系內的傳說，說卓榮泰要求大家不要把解凍案送到立法院，後來突然間又叫大家把解凍案送來。今天總統府的解凍案送過來後，其實我也是很善意的趕快排進議程，我們希望幫大家解凍，因為我知道，總統府被凍結的預算裡面有包括更多跟總統府有關的，譬如憲兵的一些費用的支出，或是一些必要的水電支出，所以我很誠意的趕快排進議程，希望幫大家解決這個問題。結果我們排了以後，總統府秘書長不願意來，然後國安會秘書長也不願意來。","早上我也很誠意的跟兩位副秘書長報告了，我其實昨天就有講了啦，你今天如果真的有要務不能來，是不是可以來一個小時就好，譬如9點開會，然後你10點開始請假，你至少來一個小時，有一些委員需要問問題的可以問得到，那也不行啊！再來就是說，我問兩位秘書長何時有空，我們的會議可以專門安排在你有空的時候，麻煩你來，也不來，這個就不是你因公無法到了，我想這個就是「袂爽」來就對了啦，看你「無」所以「袂爽」來啦！我覺得就是這樣。我剛剛為什麼說感謝何副秘書長，至少何副秘書長還有銜秘書長的意思先來跟我們好好溝通了一下，至於吳釗燮秘書長是連甩都不甩我們。","對於預算解凍這件事情，這是你們要用的預算，然後我們這麼誠意地幫你排了，然後你還愛來不來的，我覺得這種作法就不對了。我剛剛所論述的每一件事實都是這兩天發生的事實，我也只能說立法院司法及法制委員會已經用盡了所有的善意，希望好好的處理預算，但是我們面對的是，他就是不甩你，然後對外就說錢都被卡死、無法施政，藍白亂刪、亂凍結預算。我希望全國人民看清楚這些嘴臉，你連來都不來，我告訴你法條的依據，你應該到立法院來，該來負責，你給我回一句說：依憲政慣例我不用來。你所謂的憲政慣例是憲政的哪一條慣例？請你告訴我，但你到今天也都還不告訴我，這樣以後要面對民意代表時，我的邏輯就是憲政慣例，我為什麼甩你！所以原來當官是這樣在在當的喔，我希望全民看清楚啦！","我想請教一下何副秘書長，因為總統有提到要來提一個國安情勢簡報，他在昨天也有提到希望政黨合作。我們第一個想到的矛盾點就是，你一邊說要政黨合作，另外一方面又在那邊支持大罷免，然後一直在歡呼這件事情。我想請教你，既然他說要政黨合作，又提了一個國安情勢報告，請問一下，他說的這個國安情勢報告的內容到底是什麼？"],["何副秘書長志偉：我想跟委員報告，現在所有的幕僚作業正在進行當中，因為是昨天才正式對外公布。各位委員都很專業，也許大家針對想要看到的報告是哪個方面的，我們這邊都可以互相的溝通，並且後續可以再讓幕僚作業來製作、產出。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧，現在就是幕僚還在處理啦，但是我想要提的一個就是，我雖然到政壇才一年多，但我覺得政治的真諦是在於溝通跟協調，我想這個大家都不會否認，而不是造謠跟抹紅。但這段時間我看到的就是，法制上講不贏你就給你扣紅帽子，就扣說你是中共同路人或什麼的，這種東西這段時間我們每天都在遇到，我也只能跟副秘報告一個點就是，其實總統身為民進黨黨主席，他也是國家的總統，他有權力去任命行政院院長還有大法官，所以至少到目前為止，我只有聽到總統說他希望執政跟在野大家好好的團結合作，和諧的來從事國政，可是並沒有看到一個實際的作為。我看到的只是司法上面的一些雙標以及施政上面的一些雙標，甚至是我剛剛講到的，他一方面說：你刪我預算、你亂凍結我預算，但是我們排了解凍案，結果秘書長又不來，然後我們卑微的，不要說卑微啦，我們也講說願意配合你的時間，你什麼時間有空，我什麼時間都可以為你而開會，晚上12點也可以，但是他還是不來！","說真的，我當召委，我今天安排了這個議程，但我連一通電話都沒有接到，這兩位偉大的秘書長，今天好歹我是民意代表，但我連一通兩位的電話我都沒有接到！今天早上麻煩副秘去跟秘書長聯繫，但我到現在還是什麼資訊都沒有，就空等了那麼久！但是我們今天是要審查兩位所帶領的機關的預算解凍案，在想辦法幫你們解凍預算，也就是要拿預算給你用，結果你卻這樣子處理，這個是我沒有辦法理解的地方啦！","當然，我也覺得「秘書長爛」這個東西不能讓基層憲兵等等的這些人來吃苦，或是讓總統府的公務員吃苦，我們不捨得讓這些基層因為長官的爛而必須要吃苦，所以很多時候我們不得不就一些預算部分，我們只能說很多苦我們就吞下來，你今天不屑我們，我們就吞下來了，因為我沒有辦法讓那些士官兵在那裡連飯都沒得吃、冷氣沒得開，像何副秘跟我說，他們熱到都要中暑，其實我都捨不得，捨不得何副秘受這樣的苦。但我也是很不屑、不恥秘書長們做這種事情，就因為他不屑民意機關，這就是賴總統、賴政府執政之下帶領的這些高官們看不起、不屑民意機關，我們還叫做民主國家嗎？這是我自己心中的一個感觸啦。","之前賴總統有提到的賴17點，以及這次他所希望做到的國安情勢簡報，我們還是希望一件事情，因為共諜案發生了這麼久，我們還是搞不太清楚整個方向，但是當我們國家安全受到危害的時候，不管是人民或是立委們，都很擔心這個事情，所以我還是提一個具體的建議，我希望簡報內容能夠跟我們說明幾個點：第一個，跟我們說明到底發生了什麼事情？又是什麼時候開始的？第二個，到底這些敵對的勢力是誰？機敏資料的持有人、經手人怎麼查核？還有滲透的原因以及為什麼選擇這些人下手？這個在我簡報上面都有。最後，你要怎麼解決這個問題？尤其怎麼解決才是最重要的，因為我們不能容任國家被某些勢力，不管是來自於境外或境內的人去滲透國家的安全，去破壞國家安全。以上這幾點，要麻煩你們在將來的簡報裡面能把這些東西提出來讓我們理解一下。","更何況這些共諜，我們發現他們都還有在繳民進黨的黨費，他其實還是民進黨的黨員，是發生事情之後才被開除的。當然我可以理解一個點，就像上市櫃公司一樣，大家要去查你的商業機密，當然要從那些技術人員去滲透，他不會去滲透外面的散戶，所以這些人很大量的存在執政黨或者是執政黨的府會黨團或中央機關等等，這個我可以理解，這個在邏輯上是合邏輯的，但是你應該還是要找出一個方法去解決啊，不能放任這些人就繼續在裡面侵害我們這個國家。所以我想總統真正要交代的是這些共諜到底是怎麼養成的，而不是跟我們說去搞了一個急難救助金就可以，我覺得狀況不會是這麼low，不會是他欠幾個錢就會出賣靈魂給某些敵人，我想不是這樣。好，如果這個人可以用錢來打動的話，你的敵人永遠可以出比你更高的價碼去鎖定那幾個特定人，所以絕對不是成立一個什麼急難救助金就可以解決問題，我不相信是這樣啦。如果你們認為的敵人是中國大陸的話，民進黨現在認定的敵人是中國大陸，中國大陸絕對有辦法出更高的價碼去買通其他人，所以這不是解決問題的方式，請大家能夠真的找出問題來解決，如果你是有心解決，如果你不是把國家安全只當作政治籌碼在那邊做政治攻擊的話，如果你真心要解決國家安全受侵害的問題，請拿出正確的方式來做。","至於機要人員的查核，是不是可以告訴我們過去問題出在哪裡及將來怎麼改正？因為這次有發生機要人員的問題，然後發生長期都沒有被安全查核嘛，這個到底出包出在哪裡？有沒有需要立法院協助修法？這個也麻煩你們能夠告訴我們一下，否則區區幾千塊美金、幾萬塊，就把國家安全都出賣了。我們也希望政府在查緝共諜的時候，能夠像查辦國民黨涉犯的幽靈連署一樣，到處大搜索、大約談，然後到處聲請羈押，我希望辦共諜能有像辦國民黨這樣的決心跟力道，哪怕是二分之一的力道也可以啦，好好的辦共諜啦，真正讓這個國家陷於危險的是這些共諜，真正是這些人啦，而不是……我跟你講啦，偽造文書，我從以前到現在都說是違法的，我從來沒有說過他合法，但是跟國家安全比起來，共諜這麼嚴重，你為什麼不好好的辦？所以我還是希望國家能夠重視我們國家安全出了問題這件事情，而不要在那邊講一些風涼話，叫做沒有被滲透的才是真正有問題，這種話都出來！再麻煩何副秘這邊能夠協助。","另外，國安會這邊，真的要麻煩您跟吳秘書長提醒一下，請他去看一下國安會組織法，不然請他找跟他友好的立委，把國安會組織法第八條修掉，在第八條還沒有修掉的時候，請依法行政。麻煩你們，請依法行政！謝謝各位。","兩位辛苦了，謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：下一位請王義川委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":332,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-17","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","王鴻薇","羅智強","吳思瑤","王義川","翁曉玲","莊瑞雄","陳培瑜","沈發惠"],"page_start":259,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145202","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145202_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於總統府預算凍結項目共 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觀光署其實也跟得上潮流他也設立了一個叫歐雄AI小幫手的一個平台署長應該有啦是署長你自己測試過這個平台沒有"},{"start":51.263,"end":71.182,"text":"我們有請同仁一起測試因為我們現在是希望能夠疫情之後把AI也協助旅行業旅館業希望能夠帶動所以我們自己本身也在試著一個小平台我也知道啦就是說第一個我覺得我肯定光屬跟得上時代潮流"},{"start":72.104,"end":81.641,"text":"也知道AI未來的運用可以幫忙大家做很多的事情所以你們也開始嘗試做一點測試但是這個是上限的平台"},{"start":82.554,"end":103.022,"text":"所以我問部長跟署長有沒有自己上去測試過我知道有這個系統但是我沒有測試過我是上去看我上去看過我沒有加入我請辦公室的助理幫我測試一下那我就很簡單的講就好了其實我對這種我都覺得"},{"start":105.393,"end":128.972,"text":"不成熟的東西不要拿出來你知道觀光署所代表的是中華民國的觀光產業它代表的是交通部也就是它是中華民國這種強調我們觀光要立國我們曾經有千萬來客觀光署是一個象徵一個代表那我們推出了這個AI小幫手的服務平台"},{"start":129.895,"end":151.302,"text":"我請助理輸入幾個東西比如說第一個我想知道中永和好吃的麵包在哪裡他回答是很抱歉找不到相關的資料你可以進一步查詢各個景點的資料庫喔然後再來請介紹一下永和著名的甜點同樣回答的是一樣的東西"},{"start":152.526,"end":174.435,"text":"那請介紹永和的觀光景點其實越問越大啦一樣的道理叫你建議參考新北市政府的觀光旅遊的網站然後問說想要從台北想要台北就簡單講請AI台北進行騎自行車環島應該怎麼安排我們的平台出現的"},{"start":181.84,"end":203.142,"text":"三天的行程是還台北市的行程我說台北市出發要騎自行車怎麼還台你們給我的是三天還台北市的行程好那剛剛這些問題其實不要講AI啦我們講到AI實在是太羞辱AI了我們"},{"start":204.465,"end":228.518,"text":"台灣有Internet之後我們連我們只要在Google上面輸入永和有什麼好吃的中和有什麼好吃的我們台中的清水有什麼好吃的我想都可以跑出一大堆的東西出來還沒到AI啦搜尋網站就可以不用用到AI啦也就是還不大需要用到智慧"},{"start":229.518,"end":255.664,"text":"只要你有搜尋功能就可以做到我們不夠周圍人應該加一個試用版因為我們也知道說這件事情我們希望成立一個PMO我們工研院來協助我們那麼現在我們也有支撐會來協助我們這件事情也覺得22個縣市政府做的力道不夠但是六都做的還不錯那我們希望能夠把它串起來我們會加一個試用版上這個就是說"},{"start":257.306,"end":284.529,"text":"部長 署長你們也都知道大家現在可以花錢訂閱CHAP GPT吧對 沒錯你可以輸入它比Google更好用因為它加入人工智慧可以真正的AI讓你排成告訴你哪裡可以你可以去哪裡中午去哪裡吃怎麼它幫你排好了雖然它還是有一點小缺點但是比起過去我們傳統用Google的搜尋它其實好很多"},{"start":285.905,"end":315.391,"text":"我的意思就是說台灣一般大家會認知什麼叫AI就他買了chip GPT幫你排排好之後大家都還在裡面要討論或者修正那中華民國政府主管觀光的的一個AI平台結果出來的是連提供最基本的資料都沒有我們稱之為代表著中華民國觀光署的AI的小幫手"},{"start":316.94,"end":340.736,"text":"那個蘇發部長也在齁 部長你們也在推動政府AI應用實驗站的這個計畫在你的看法交通部啊 觀光署啊 推這樣的一個所謂的AI平台 部長作為一個專家 作為這個數位發展的主管機關 你的看法是什麼"},{"start":341.275,"end":364.797,"text":"我想這個方向是對的,那資料的訓練可能還需要再加強那有一些新的技術,像什麼RAC這種技術可以導入可以增加這個網站的使用性,這個我們會跟交通部再來合作你們這個實驗站,恐怕第一個要趕快請幫忙一下觀光署啦恐怕你要第一個趕快,因為我就幫你測試一下你們實驗站二月就開課了嘛"},{"start":366.658,"end":391.354,"text":"但是我對到今天已經五月了讓我們還看到這樣子因為我覺得這樣的東西其實對觀光署是一個很大的羞辱啦就中華民國的觀光主管機關推一個AI連Google的搜尋入口網站都不如我們名字叫AI我覺得這個是很奇怪的你要服務大家你應該是怎麼樣你的Data的訓練"},{"start":393.243,"end":410.834,"text":"ChipGVT把所有網路上面的資料他都拿來訓練他告訴我們的我們都還覺得不一定很優還要在人工加以優化那現在呢我們在訓練他的方式是只有政府內部的資料"},{"start":413.157,"end":437.613,"text":"部長你覺得這樣的訓練出來可堪用嗎我們也在準備這些資料來做訓練所以我們會協助交通部把這個系統的訓練的更好所以這樣子是不合格的啦對不對部長我們會再跟交通部所以我沒有惡意啦我只是說署長我們要做我們就一定要有一個基本的樣子"},{"start":438.934,"end":462.51,"text":"因為你丟這個出來 只會讓網路上大家不斷地三笑說原來中華民國 光光鼠的AI說什麼叫AI 就長這個樣子台灣人笑完也就算了 我們號稱科技大國 我們還有速發部喔結果我們在國外 如果這個外國人不管他在台灣 他來台灣要搜尋 結果長這個樣子這個"},{"start":466.51,"end":483.263,"text":"很好笑啦說實在話所以我沒有反對你做這個我只是覺得做任何的網站包括你觀光署下面你各個相關的這些風景區管理服務平台或者什麼一大堆的到底"},{"start":483.883,"end":499.689,"text":"效果如何 做這些東西要進入了一個新紀元 就是AI的新紀元那到底你們準備好了沒有不要齁 這樣打出來說 我就有在做了 現在就有在做這個這個齁 我覺得不好啦 署長你覺得呢"},{"start":501.85,"end":527.87,"text":"謝謝委員指教但是因為我們重點當初同仁提的時候重點在歐貝爾重點在這個歐雄也就是歐雄比過去的歐雄能夠更進步一點所以我們嘗試的讓同仁有些這個衝擊那委員提示的也是我們覺得私律還是不夠周到但是表示我們PMO還要必須要加強那這個部分如果說不"},{"start":529.391,"end":552.225,"text":"能夠來協助我們 我們覺得是更感謝我建議就是說 先弄好再推出啦不急嘛速發部都還在教政府各單位怎麼應用實驗站觀光署要走在前面我沒意見你至少做一個CHAP GPT不要差太遠的啦不要差太遠 大家覺得說CHAP GPT要用錢去買觀光署服務我們不用錢的"},{"start":553.237,"end":558.307,"text":"但是他只限旅遊的問題 他沒辦法問其他的問題OK啊 我覺得這很讚啊"},{"start":559.512,"end":585.698,"text":"你跟他合作都可以啦就是你怎麼把旅遊的資訊你跟他有一個區隔雖然但是市場人家已經走到這裡了政府機關離人家太遠搞不過去啦這樣懂我的意思啦好因為時間的關係我只剩下最後一個問題我想請問一下那個現在我們那個訂房率啊現在不公開他的思維是什麼"},{"start":586.959,"end":612.936,"text":"並不是不公開而是現在的訂房率被大家誤認為是住房率那麼其實在現在的分析裡面發現就是說現在的疫情之後大家的訂房的決定的時間點越來越晚那我們在15天就宣布的時候其實這種宣布的方式其實會影響一些選擇行為我的意思是說你們科學的認證裡面發現公佈"},{"start":616.311,"end":632.367,"text":"公布台灣各個地區各個縣市或者觀光景點它的住房率幾%它所產生的負面衝擊是什麼比正面衝擊還大那是什麼譬如說現在有50%是當天才決定要去住宿的"},{"start":633.874,"end":646.991,"text":"報告員當時我所理解的會有這個數據的公布主要是為了讓地方政府方便因為如果說電房率很高的時候他們交通輸運上面要怎麼去準備還有我們自己風景區的那個要怎麼整備"},{"start":648.353,"end":665.501,"text":"但是後來發現這個參考的價值越來越低是因為現在大家的定房率習慣上50%的人是前一天才決定那我們這個公布是前15天就公布所以那個參考價值其實是相對低但是我們現在公布的是定房率前三名的給民眾參考 參考什麼"},{"start":666.361,"end":690.47,"text":"有哪幾個縣市它的訂房率特別高如果想去那裡遊玩的人你要訂房可能要趕快訂或者是說交通上要趕快先準備這個部分我還是會公布那但是其他部分或許可以考慮啦要不要前一天再公布或者是直接住房率直接公布也是可以的因為我不了解這樣的利弊啦所以我今天來特別請教是譬如說以我的消費行為來看"},{"start":691.61,"end":714.942,"text":"如果我發現這個連假前兩個禮拜你告訴我哪裡已經大塞已經九成了因為我可以有替代性嘛我一年有幾個假期那我就先挑不要跟人家擠的那我可能對我這種消費者而言我就找不到哪裡是不擠的我們現在前三名比較多訂房的地方我們會公布還是有"},{"start":715.362,"end":731.393,"text":"我知道我知道我的意思是說以前全公布我才知道說我的選擇可以選擇不用去人擠人的位置在哪裡那所以以前也是全公布現在你只公布前三名所以你公布了前三名我並不知道第四名會也一樣是不是也一樣擁擠"},{"start":732.774,"end":748.632,"text":"所以我的意思是說 站在我這種消費者而言我不懂為什麼你不讓我知道最不擁擠的這一個假期最不擁擠的地點到底在哪裡我的意思只是詢問這個所以我的意思是說你們應該是不是在"},{"start":749.893,"end":778.024,"text":"再跟那個觀光業者或者消費者之間再評估一下啦到底是怎麼樣公布是最好的因為我也不知道但是我只是站在我這一種消費者立場我會覺得很不方便以前很方便以前你們的指標就是告訴我這一個連駕不要去哪裡因為那裡實在是房間也很難訂車子又多所以我會選其他還好這個地方還蠻容易訂的沒有你們這個資訊我只好到處去"},{"start":779.324,"end":793.496,"text":"訂房網站去搜尋嘛看哪裡的最好訂就表示這個假期那裡少所以我的意思在評估一下看怎麼樣公布是對消費者好對這個業者也好好不好好謝謝好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1532,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時34分）謝謝主席。請陳部長跟觀光署周署長。"],["主席：請陳部長、周署長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長午安。今天剛好數發部也在，所以我想我們可以就一些AI的題目進行探討。我看了一下，觀光署其實也跟得上潮流啦！設立了一個名叫「喔熊AI小幫手」的平臺，署長，應該有啦！"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：署長，你自己測試過這個平臺沒有？"],["周署長永暉：我有請同仁一起測試。我們現在是希望能夠趁疫情之後，也以AI協助帶動旅行業、旅館業，所以自己也在試這個小平臺。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，我也知道啦！第一，我肯定觀光署跟得上時代潮流，也知道AI未來應用可以幫忙大家做很多事情，所以你們也開始嘗試做一點測試。但是這是上線的平臺，所以我問部長和署長有沒有自己上去測試過。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我知道有這個系統，但是沒有測試過。"],["周署長永暉：我是上去看過，沒有加入。"],["蔡委員其昌：我請辦公室助理幫我測試了一下，那我就很簡單地講就好。其實對於這種系統，我都覺得不成熟的東西不要拿出來。你知道觀光署所代表的是中華民國的觀光產業，代表的是交通部，也就是說，對於中華民國強調要觀光立國，我們曾經有千萬來客，觀光署是一種象徵、一個代表。觀光署推出這個AI小幫手的服務平臺後，我請助理輸入幾個東西，譬如說第一，我想知道中、永和好吃的麵包在哪裡，它回答的是「很抱歉，找不到相關資料，你可以進一步查詢各景點的資料庫喔！」再來，請它介紹永和著名的甜點，回答的是一樣的東西。「請介紹永和的觀光景點」，其實愈問愈大啦！但也是一樣的道理，平臺建議參考新北市政府的觀光旅遊網站。然後又問，想要從臺北騎……簡單講就是請問AI，從臺北騎自行車環島應該怎麼安排，結果觀光署平臺出現的3天行程是環臺北市的行程。我是說要怎麼從臺北市出發騎自行車環臺，而你們給我的是3天環臺北市的行程！","對於剛剛這些問題，其實不用講AI啦！講AI實在太羞辱AI了。自從臺灣有internet之後，我們只要在Google上輸入永和有什麼好吃的、中和有什麼好吃的、我們臺中清水有什麼好吃的，我想系統都可以跑出一大堆東西出來，還沒用到AI啦！搜尋網站就可以了，不必用到AI啦！也就是還不大需要用到智慧，只要有搜尋功能就可以做到。"],["周署長永暉：沒錯，我們不夠周延啦！應該加註「試用版」，因為我們也知道。關於這件事情，我們希望成立一個PMO，由工研院協助，現在也有資策會協助。針對這件事情，我們也覺得22個縣市政府做的力道還不夠，但是六都做得還不錯，我們希望把它串起來，我們會加上「試用版」。"],["蔡委員其昌：是啦！我的意思是上這個……部長、署長，你們也都知道大家現在可以花錢訂閱ChatGPT吧！"],["陳部長世凱：對，沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：你可以輸入，而它比Google更好用，因為它加入人工智慧，可以透過真正的AI幫你排程、告訴你可以去哪裡、中午去哪裡吃等等，它都幫你排好。雖然還是有一點小缺點，但是比起過去傳統上使用Google搜尋，它其實好很多。我的意思就是在臺灣，一般大家會認知什麼叫AI？就是買ChatGPT幫你排，但排好之後，大家還要在裡面討論或修正。中華民國政府主管觀光單位推出的AI平臺，做出來的卻連提供最基本的資料都沒有！這是我們稱之為代表中華民國觀光署的AI小幫手！","數發部長也在。部長，你們也在推動政府AI應用實驗站計畫，交通部觀光署推出這樣的所謂AI平臺，部長作為專家、作為數位發展的主管機關，你的看法是什麼？"],["黃部長彥男：我想，這個方向是對的啦！但資料的訓練可能還需要再加強，也有一些新的技術，像是RAG這種技術可以導入，增加這個網站的實用性，我們會再跟交通部合作。"],["蔡委員其昌：你們這個實驗站的第一件事恐怕是要趕快幫忙一下觀光署啦！"],["陳部長世凱：我們要拜託數發部。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，恐怕要第一個做、趕快做，因為我幫你們測試了一下，數發部的實驗站二月就開課了嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：對，AI Bots……"],["蔡委員其昌：但是到今天已經五月了，我們還看到這樣的情形。我覺得這樣的東西對於觀光署來說其實是很大的羞辱啦！中華民國觀光主管機關推出的AI連Google搜尋入口網站都不如，名字卻叫AI，我覺得這是很奇怪的。要服務大家應該怎麼樣？要重視Data的訓練。ChatGPT把網路上所有資料都拿來訓練，但是連它告訴我們的，我們都覺得不一定很優質，還要再透過人工加以優化，而現在你們訓練它的方式只是透過政府內部的資料。部長，你覺得這樣訓練出來堪用嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們也在準備這些資料做訓練，我們會協助交通部把這個系統訓練得更好。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以這樣是不合格的啦！對不對，部長？"],["黃部長彥男：我們會再跟交通部研究。"],["蔡委員其昌：我沒有惡意啦！只是要跟署長說，既然要做，就一定要有基本的樣子啦！你丟這個出來，只會在網路上遭到大家不斷訕笑，原來中華民國觀光署說什麼叫AI，其實就只是長這個樣子。臺灣人笑完也就算了，我們號稱科技大國，還有數發部喔！結果外國人不管是在臺灣或者為了來臺灣要搜尋，AI平臺卻長這個樣子，很好笑啦！這是說實在話。我沒有反對你們做這個，只是要問做任何網站，包括觀光署下面各個相關風景區的管理、服務平臺等一大堆網站，到底效果如何？對於做這些東西要進入新紀元，也就是AI的新紀元，你們到底準備好沒有？不要做了就丟下，表示有在做這個，我覺得這樣不好啦！署長，你覺得呢？"],["周署長永暉：先謝謝委員指教。但當初同仁提出的時候，重點在於OhBear，也就是「喔熊」能夠比過去的喔熊更進步一點，我們是嘗試給同仁一點衝擊。委員提示的讓我們覺得思慮還是不夠周到，也表示我們的PMO還是必須加強。就這個部分，如果數發部能夠協助我們，我們會更感激。"],["蔡委員其昌：我的建議是先弄好再推出啦！不急嘛！畢竟數發部都還在教政府各單位怎麼應用實驗……觀光署要走在前面我沒意見，但至少要做一個不要跟ChatGPT差太遠的啦！不要差它太遠，才能讓大家覺得ChatGPT要用錢買，觀光署服務則是不用錢的。就算只限旅遊問題，沒辦法問其他問題，我也覺得OK、很讚啊！你們跟它合作也都可以啊！問題只是怎麼在旅遊資訊上跟它有所區隔。市場已經走到這裡了，政府機關離人家太遠，交代不過去啦！這樣講懂我的意思吧？"],["周署長永暉：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為時間的關係，我只剩下最後一個問題。我想請問一下，現在訂房率不公開的思維是什麼？"],["周署長永暉：不是不公開，而是現在的訂房率被大家誤認為住房率。其實現在的分析發現，疫情之後，大家決定訂房的時間點愈來愈晚，而我們在15天之前就宣布，這種宣布方式其實會影響一些選擇行為。"],["蔡委員其昌：我的意思是，你們在科學認證裡面發現公布臺灣各地區、各縣市或觀光景點住房率百分比產生的負面衝擊是什麼？"],["周署長永暉：比正面衝擊還大。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，但那是什麼？就是說大家……"],["周署長永暉：譬如說有50%是當天才決定去住宿的。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，就我所理解，當時會公布這個數據，主要是為了讓地方政府方便，例如當訂房率很高時，他們的交通輸運要怎麼準備，或者我們自己的風景區要怎麼整備。但是後來發現這個參考價值越來越低，主要是受限於現在的訂房習慣，因為50%的人是前一天才決定，但我們這個數據是前15天就公布，所以參考價值相對較低。","我們現在是公布訂房率前三名給民眾參考，參考什麼？就是哪幾個縣市的訂房率特別高，如果想去那裡遊玩的人，你可能就要趕快訂房，或者交通方面要先準備。所以這個部分還是會公布，但是其他部分或許可以考慮要不要前一天再公布，或者直接公布住房率，這樣也可以。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為本席不了解其中的利弊，所以今天才會特別請教。譬如以本席的消費行為來看，如果本席發現這個連假前兩個禮拜，你們就告訴大家哪裡會大塞，訂房率已經達到九成，因為我們的計畫有替代性，一年有好幾個假期，那我們就會先挑不用和別人擠的時候。這樣一來，對本席這類的消費者而言，我們就不知道哪裡比較不擁擠，或是哪裡的遊客比較沒有那麼多。"],["陳部長世凱：不會的，現在前三名訂房比較多的地方，我們會公布，這部分還是有的，六都和非六都都有前三名。"],["蔡委員其昌：本席知道。本席的意思是說，以前全部都會公布，這樣我們才知道不會人擠人的地方在哪裡。因為以前你們是全部公布，現在只公布前三名，但我們不知道第四名是不是一樣擁擠。所以本席的意思是說，站在這類消費者的立場，我們不懂為什麼你們不讓大家知道這個假期最不擁擠的地點到底在哪裡，本席只是要詢問這個部分。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以本席的意思是說，你們是不是站在觀光業者和消費者之間的立場再評估一下，到底怎麼公布才是最好的。"],["陳部長世凱：好，可以。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為本席也不知道怎麼做才是最好的，只是認為站在這類消費者的立場，我們會覺得很不方便。以前很方便，你們的指標會告訴我們這個連假不要去哪裡，因為那裡房間難訂、車子又多，這樣我們就會選其他比較容易訂房的地方。如果沒有這項資訊，我們只能在訂房網站到處搜尋，看看哪裡的房間最好訂，這樣就表示在這個假期中，那裡的人比較少。所以本席的意思是再評估一下，看怎麼公布對消費者好，對業者也好，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們會再評估，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-12","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","黃健豪","何欣純","蔡其昌","徐富癸","邱若華","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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一樣請王部長陳部長請陳部長今天都你喔"},{"start":10.683,"end":24.795,"text":"副長這個當然三峽事件大家很關心那噪音其實到現在都還沒確定因為反正他人也還沒有出院那只是說在大家在猜測可能噪音的時候許多人都會討論到高齡駕駛的這個問題那也在這個因為事件過後被積極的討論不過我們交通部在"},{"start":31.82,"end":56.53,"text":"邏輯上啦還是我認為當然社會事件發生之後我們總是要一些回應但是我們的做法有時候還是要有一些邏輯性的根本解決問題比如說你說部長說這個肇事率最高的不是高齡駕駛嗎結果我們卻是調整高齡駕駛的這個換照的年齡那其實這十年來這個長者的身體的健康一定比這個規定是十年前定的對不對"},{"start":57.29,"end":70.369,"text":"那現在75歲的長者一定比10年前75歲長者還來得健康嘛一定的嘛但是你們又下修年齡所以有時候感覺是好像好像為了呼應或符合社會期待去做一些調整"},{"start":72.392,"end":97.046,"text":"那我還是希望說我認為最重要的最重要的是不是這個年齡重要的是我們的考照制度跟換照制度能不能確保每一個用戶人他都應該要有這個安全駕駛的能力這才是重點這個制度檢測的制度才是重點那檢測制度這個東西我想部長昨天有大概記者會說過我想就靜待你們的一個消息但只是社會期待一定是要持續的來加嚴那我今天想跟部長討論的是後續賠償的一個問題賠償當然是"},{"start":102.069,"end":125.515,"text":"賠償當然是這個監管會是主管這個相關的強制險是監管會主管但是強制險強制險會有這個上路是為了我們的交通安全而定的那包括我們的大灣匯報也都討論到強制險這件事情所以我也希望說藉由這件事情來檢視我們的強制險有沒有調整的一個必要因為在這一次的事件很明確的強制險"},{"start":128.156,"end":136.579,"text":"沒有辦法cover掉這一次的損害 相關的一個賠償一個 我們現在看應該不是機車 應該汽車也是這樣子那我們有三位的A1A1有三位的離開 那最起碼就三位了但是我們現在的保險制度卻只有"},{"start":146.103,"end":166.049,"text":"每人就是兩個上限嘛 每人200 那總事故是400那其實這個已經都over掉了那我會建議啦 可不可以因為我們的這個強制險的一個調整已經 上一次調整已經2012年了那包括它的物價指數 已經可能跟現在都有已經跟不上了 以前的200萬跟今天的200萬已經不一樣了那我想從1998年就有陸續在調整 都有依據物價在調"},{"start":170.891,"end":186.659,"text":"那我也建議說經過十多年的那相關的一個強制險的一個精神就是要有一個給付的一個社會的一個保險的一個概念嘛不能over掉嘛那我希望說能夠再做一個調整那另外一個部分是我們的因為我們的"},{"start":187.9,"end":204.671,"text":"強制險是定額的保險公司也不賺錢我們不是用賺錢的精神來看它是定額的包括理賠上限跟我們的保費保費當然是有一個會調整但是原則上基準是一樣的那我們可不可以把我們的考照或者是換照的"},{"start":205.572,"end":231.55,"text":"精神把它移入到強制險裡面去比如說我們換照我們會有一個分數我們會有一個點數我們現在可能是我記得七項評點嘛四點就換嘛對不對那我們以後可能可能可以把這個Range拉大一點可能100分嘛那我們允許你60分就換照我們允許你60分換照這最基本但是你還沒到100分你60分70分80分到100分你在強制險可能你在只是60分低空飛過的時候你強制險的額度"},{"start":233.812,"end":252.661,"text":"我們可能就不只是兩百萬我們會要求你提高到比別人高1.1倍 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99.9%的民众所以对厂商来说如果他持续在自费的品项来讲他可能"},{"start":65.663,"end":95.458,"text":"它能够这个被使用的量比较少所以有些厂商也会来跟我们要求希望能够收载到健保里面所以包含了专业医学会包含了这些医材的厂商或药品的厂商那当然有的时候可能是长期我们发现说某一些比较已经有某些医材或者是药品它已经是越来越是主要的被使用的情况那这个时候我们可能也会来跟医学会或者是这个需求端这边来讨论说是不是愿意让我们收载到健保里面"},{"start":95.878,"end":124.696,"text":"我是覺得這個部分以後因為我最近聽很多醫生在講就有的他們的譬如說外科醫師他打骨釘什麼之類他說有的骨釘是自費市場有的是健保市場其實都已經行之有年好好的忽然間他們民眾喜歡的自費的骨釘忽然被納入到健保那被納入健保之後那個廠商有的就不想做然後反而就打亂他們本來的一些醫療的行為那這部分是不是可以請健保署就在"},{"start":125.416,"end":150.567,"text":"做類似工作或開會的時候可以加強溝通謝謝委員因為譬如說我舉一個例子像這個之前大家新聞上面也都有看過就是一個手術的封合劑那有一個廠商叫做泰爾茂那這家廠商一開始的時候就是因為他被給的點數太低了所以他們就決定就不賣了那後來好像健保署又不救所以後來又重新找廠商來談把他的點數增加所以他又願意繼續留下來"},{"start":152.168,"end":176.513,"text":"我有看到非常多藍衣生 有的跟政治都無關 有的藍的 有的綠的都有跳出來罵這個事情 可見說他在開會的過程當中的處理真的是有一點粗糙這個合價的部分在健保署這邊的相關合價事實上他是有些參考的公式那再來的話就是說 其實當時在這一個醫材的部分事實上是好幾家廠商都來跟我們要求收載到健保裡面"},{"start":177.413,"end":192.126,"text":"是廠商來跟我們要求收窄那他要求收窄然後他自己又覺得點數太低然後退出其實是廠商來跟我們要求收窄那所以你們不是說大家先談就是說如果你要進來的話我給你多少點數你願意接受你再進來"},{"start":194.108,"end":216.118,"text":"是說他談了你直接給了給了你要或不要一句話健保收窄裡面他如果是同類型的他當然會有一個收窄的價格幾付價格那這個價格其實不是健保署自己這邊訂的第一個事情就是剛剛跟委員報告他需要有一些公式第二個部分他必須經過我們的共擬會共同擬定會議那共同擬定會議裡面不單純只有健保署我們就拿這個太陽帽當作例子"},{"start":218.979,"end":233.175,"text":"你看像當時因為因為這個已經議題在被大家關注了所以他後來健保署開一個記者會他把類似的藥全部都秀出來就是有百特醫療有泰爾茂還有埃莫高"},{"start":234.156,"end":252.752,"text":"然後就拿出來可是大家發現說你合給的健保點數11831的的百特跟奧特利這兩種實際上它的容量計算方式是不一樣而且它的用途也不一樣等於是你把不同的容量的東西跟不同用途的東西都合給一樣的點數"},{"start":254.173,"end":266.027,"text":"所以這樣的比較基礎就會有一個落差再跟你補充一下我一直講完再請你一定回答好了還有就是他也沒有當時在開會的時候也沒有列出國際價格還有一個問題就是"},{"start":270.191,"end":285.669,"text":"這個建議支付點數你們有一個報告裡面有提到像這個封合劑在臨床上臨床上申報使用是用4L為大宗可是我們剛列出來的表格你們比較基礎是拿2克來做比較"},{"start":286.877,"end":314.987,"text":"所以這個然後再加上這個藥特別是有非常多的醫生有很多不同意見其實我只是提出來就是說既然健保署基於需要因為剛剛市長一開始講了很多原因嘛要把那些藥納入既然有這麼多的需要把它納入那在核架以及開會的過程當中他那個資料的詳實性然後還有就是擴大醫界的意見的參與我覺得這一塊是不是可以多做一點啊不然的話真的"},{"start":316.168,"end":330.899,"text":"其實聽到蠻多醫生在對於核價這件事情他們是有很多意見的我們當然希望說這個核的價格能夠讓大家在整個使用上面或者是在醫材韌性上面能夠更好不過也報告委員就是說因為健保畢竟它是總額的"},{"start":332.22,"end":354.572,"text":"所以常常我們比如說A醫學會來希望我們收載了某一項給付B醫學會就會說你會影響到我們的點值這也是我們常遇到的狀況所以說當然在健保這邊它的核價不是由健保署自己來決定就像剛剛跟您報告的第一它有一些公式第二它在我們的購你會議裡面包含了我們的健保的委員以及購你會的委員還有醫界跟藥界還有相關的醫學會"},{"start":356.693,"end":379.807,"text":"在共理會議上面會來針對健保署這邊必須考慮在收窄這些藥品裡面去進行評估那這裡面當然我們會尊重專家的意見當然各自的我們也必須承認台灣事實上各自的醫院或者是醫師有比較習慣用的品牌那我們盡量滿足有的時候可能就會有對 雖然因為剛剛你也提到那個健保點子因為我們去年有一個組決議就是健保1.0.95元"},{"start":381.348,"end":408.558,"text":"那本來好像是說六月底的時候要實施那目前衛福部這方面的規劃是怎樣我們固定在每個每一季我們都有點值上面的這個計算好那所以就像委員您現在所看到我們的困境我們收窄的越多給付的越高那是不是點值上面就收到一點沒有沒有這個細節不講啦我是說因為我們那時候是講說1.0.95元嘛那時候部長邱太元也說他認為有信心可以達到那因為現在已經五月快五月底了"},{"start":409.458,"end":426.09,"text":"再一個月所以真的6月底是可以實施1.0.95元各位有報告其實應該是說因為我們固定的這個應該說健保因為總額的關係我們還有每一季還有區域還有醫院各區域以及各層級醫院他都有不同的點值計算好那這個東西來自於原來的點應該是說最低1.95啦"},{"start":427.251,"end":450.843,"text":"對那所以這個部分跟委員報告應該是之後我們會再跟委員會做報告那我們其實健保署本來就固定每一季甚至每個每一季都會有各區域還有各層級醫療院所拿的點子我現在不是講之後啦我現在是說6月底以後是不是就可以不管是哪一區或哪一級我們是一直以來我們都在針對點子的部分做進口1.0.95元啦"},{"start":451.863,"end":480.382,"text":"我們一直都在針對這個方向做監控跟方向的討論會做得到嗎會做得到我們一直在努力那當然現在的那個是主決議啦報告委員應該是說我們現在手上當然還有各分區不一樣的現象有的區它的健保耗用沒有那麼高它甚至可以到1.1塊錢有些區它的健保耗用比較高它點值可能就比較低這個我們都知道啦這個其實去年在討論這個案子的時候大家都討論過啦現在就是說因為有一個承諾嘛6月底的時候要最少0.95元到底是有沒有做不做得到啦"},{"start":481.303,"end":488.721,"text":"一直都在往這個方向走所以還是有信心就對了報告委員我們是六月底當月我們是一劑一劑好謝謝好謝謝葉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1451,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時56分）麻煩請衛福部次長。"],["林次長靜儀：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：次長好。最近很多醫生朋友在反映健保署把很多醫材都納入健保，但是因為開會訂的健保點數給付都過低，導致有些廠商不想做，要退出。我想問一下，通常健保署每一年要列入那麼多醫材或藥，本來都是自費，但後來要列入的主要的原因是什麼？"],["林次長靜儀：健保署收載給付項目的部分有幾個評估的方向，一個就是可能醫學會會向健保署提出，對於他們常用或者是希望能夠收載到健保內部的醫材來提出審查。另外當然有的時候是廠商，對廠商來講，臺灣因為健保cover百分之九十九點九的民眾，所以對廠商來說，如果持續在自費的品項來講，能夠被使用的量比較少，所以有些廠商也會來跟我們要求，希望能夠收載到健保裡面，所以包含了專業醫學會、包含了這些醫材廠商或藥品廠商，當然有的時候可能是長期我們發現已經有某些醫材或者是藥品越來越是主要被使用的情況，這個時候我們可能也會跟醫學會或者需求端這邊討論是不是願意讓我們收載到健保裡面。"],["葉委員元之：對於這個部分，因為我最近真的聽到很多醫生在講，譬如說外科醫師打骨釘，他們說有的骨釘是自費市場、有的是健保市場，其實都已經行之有年，都好好的，但忽然間民眾喜歡的自費骨釘被納入到健保，被納入健保之後，廠商有的就不想做了，反而打亂他們本來的一些醫療行為，這部分是不是可以請健保署在做類似工作或開會的時候可以加強溝通？"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員……"],["葉委員元之：譬如我舉一個例子，像這個大家之前在新聞上都有看過，這是一個手術的封合劑，有一個廠商叫做泰爾茂，這家廠商一開始就是因為它被給的點數太低了，所以它們就決定不賣了，後來好像健保署有補救，是不是後來又重新找廠商來談，把點數增加，所以它又願意繼續留下來？這跟政治都無關，我看到非常多醫生，有的藍的、有的綠的，都有跳出來罵這個事情。"],["林次長靜儀：跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：可見在開會過程當中的處理真的是有點粗糙。"],["林次長靜儀：在健保署這邊相關的核價，事實上是有一些參考的公式，再來就是當時在醫材的部分，是有好幾家廠商都來跟我們要求收載到健保裡面，是廠商來跟我們要求收載的。"],["葉委員元之：他們要求收載，然後自己又覺得點數太低，然後退出？"],["林次長靜儀：是，其實是廠商來跟我們要求收載的。"],["葉委員元之：所以你們不是大家先談，如果要進來的話給多少點數，願意接受再進來？不是這樣？是他談了，你直接給了，給了，你要或不要，一句話！"],["林次長靜儀：收載到健保裡面，如果是同類型的，當然會有一個收載的價格、給付價格，但這個價格其實不是健保署這邊自己訂的，第一個就是剛剛跟委員報告的，它必須要有一些公式。第二個部分，它必須經過我們的共擬會（共同擬定會議），共同擬定會議裡面不單純只有健保署。"],["葉委員元之：我們就拿泰爾茂當作例子，當時因為這個議題已經被大家關注了，所以後來健保署有開一個記者會，它把類似的藥全部都秀出來，有百特醫療、有泰爾茂，還有埃默高，都拿出來，可是大家發現核給的健保點數11,831的百特跟奧特利這兩種，實際上它的容量計算方式不一樣，而且它的用途也不一樣，等於是把不同容量的東西跟不同用途的東西都核給一樣的點數，所以這樣的比較基礎就會有點落差。"],["林次長靜儀：再跟委員補充一下……"],["葉委員元之：我一次講完再請你一併回答好了。"],["林次長靜儀：好。"],["葉委員元之：還有當時在開會的時候也沒有列出國際價格。另外還有一個問題，關於建議支付點數，你們有一個報告裡面有提到，像封合劑在臨床上申報使用是用4ml為大宗，可是我們剛剛列出來的表格，你們的比較基礎是拿2克來做比較，再加上這個藥特別是有非常多醫生有很多不同意見，今天我只是提出來，既然健保署基於需要，因為剛剛次長一開始講了很多原因，要把那些納入，既然有這麼多需要把它納入，在核價以及開會的過程當中，那個資料的詳實性，還有擴大醫界意見的參與，我覺得這一塊是不是可以多做一點？不然的話，我其實聽到滿多醫生對於核價這件事情是有很多意見的。"],["林次長靜儀：是，我們當然希望核的價格能夠讓大家在整個使用上面，或者是在醫材韌性上面能夠更好，不過也報告委員，健保畢竟是總額的，比方說A醫學會希望我們收載某一項給付，B醫學會就會說這會影響到我們的點值，這也是我們常遇到的狀況。當然在健保這邊的核價不是由健保署自己來決定，就像剛剛跟您報告的，第一、它有一些公式；第二、它在我們的共擬會議裡面，包含健保的委員，以及共擬會的委員，還有醫界跟藥界，以及相關的醫學會，在共擬會議上會針對健保署這邊必須考慮收載這些藥品裡面進行評估，當然我們會尊重專家的意見。而我們也必須承認臺灣各自的醫院或者是醫師有比較習慣用的品牌，我們儘量滿足，有的時候可能就會有……"],["葉委員元之：對，剛剛你提到健保點值，因為我們去年有一個主決議，就是健保1點0.95元，本來好像是6月底要實施，目前衛福部這方面的規劃是怎樣？"],["林次長靜儀：我們固定在每一季都有點值上面的計算，所以就像委員現在所看到我們的困境，我們收載的越多、給付的越高，是不是點值上面就受到影響？"],["葉委員元之：沒有，這個細節不講，因為我們那時候是說1點0.95元。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["葉委員元之：那時候部長邱泰源也說他認為有信心可以達到。"],["林次長靜儀：是，我們朝向這個方向正在努力。"],["葉委員元之：因為現在已經5月底了，再1個月，所以6月底是真的可以實施1點0.95元？"],["林次長靜儀：跟委員報告，其實應該是說健保因為總額的關係，我們還有每一季、還有區域、還有醫院，各區域以及各層級醫院都有不同的點值計算，這個東西來自於原來的點值……"],["葉委員元之：應該是說最低1點0.95。"],["林次長靜儀：對，這個部分跟委員報告，應該是之後我們會再跟委員會報告，健保署本來就固定每一季都會有各區域，還有各層級醫療院所的點值。"],["葉委員元之：我現在不是講之後啦！"],["林次長靜儀：我是說一直以來我們是這麼做的。"],["葉委員元之：我現在是說6月底，6月底以後不管是哪一區或哪一級，是不是就可以……"],["林次長靜儀：委員，我們不是6月底之後，我們是一直以來都在針對點值的部分做監控。"],["葉委員元之：1點0.95元。"],["林次長靜儀：我們一直都在針對這個方向做監控跟方向的……"],["葉委員元之：會做得到嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：我們一直在努力。當然現在的……"],["葉委員元之：那個是主決議。"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，應該是說我們現在手上……當然還有各分區不一樣的現象，有的區健保耗用沒有那麼高，它甚至可以到1點1塊錢，有些區的健保耗用比較高，它的點值可能就比較低。"],["葉委員元之：這個我們都知道，去年在討論這個案子的時候，大家都討論過，現在是因為有一個承諾，6月底的時候要最少0.95元，到底是做不做得到？"],["林次長靜儀：一直都在做。"],["葉委員元之：因為差一個月。"],["林次長靜儀：一直都在往這個方向做。"],["葉委員元之：所以還是有信心就對了？"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，我們不是6月底當月，我們是一季一季。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉委員，謝謝次長。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝。"],["主席：陳冠廷委員改成書面質詢。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","黃捷改書面質詢。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員王育敏、陳冠廷、邱鎮軍、廖偉翔、黃捷所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員王育敏書面質詢：","【一、居服中心與訪視員是否存在前端業務失職？】","1.劉彩萱、劉若琳兩位保母遭爆出不僅虐待剴剴，更早之前亦涉及對另外兩位幼童施虐。文山區居家托育服務中心（以下簡稱文山居托）作為保母的管理單位，按規定必須定期至各保母家訪視，訪視重點包含「兒虐辨識」及「居托人員社會及心理風險疑慮」。而文山居托訪視員在此期間共訪視了五次，卻都沒有發現異狀。請問衛福部，文山居托訪視員是否存在職務疏失？","2.兒虐在實務上很難發現，因此要仰賴各單位皆克盡職責。但據本席了解，剴剴案事發當時通報的單位是萬芳醫院，而非文山居托。請問衛福部身為中央主管機關，是否掌握文山居托中心當時通報情形？若無即時通報，衛福部已採取何作為改善問題？","【二、衛福部將社安網職責全部丟包給地方，中央主責在何方？】","1.衛福部在「社會工作督導支持及培力計畫」中提到，希望透過督導制度厚植在地社工人員的專業能力，提升服務品質。請問衛福部透過這個計畫，期望外聘督導應盡到何種義務和職責？","2.請問衛福部作為「社會安全網」中央主管機關，是否曾調查、掌握全國各縣市居托中心聘請外部督導的績效？","3.衛福部5月19日針對本席索資回覆，「依兒少權法第26條第3項規定：『直轄市、縣（市）主管機關為辦理居家式托育服務提供者之登記、管理、輔導、監督及檢查等事項，應自行或委託相關專業機構、團體辦理。』因居家托育服務中心係由直轄市、縣（市）主管機關委託辦理，中央主管機關並未介入處理」；並提及「中央主管機關尊重地方政府有關外聘督導的規範及管考機制。」請問衛福部身為社會安全網政策之中央主管機關，督導責任為何？","4.若兒虐事件發生，衛福部態度盡說「未介入」地方政府對居托中心之管理，試圖掩蓋自己應督導地方政府之責任，社會安全網何時才能獲得實質修補？","【三、督導的實質業務與作為，是否可以真的補足安全網漏洞？】","1.「外聘督導」之制度設計，係透過資深、有豐富經驗的社工師前輩定期指導居服中心，其扮演了居托中心訪視計畫中的關鍵角色，亦是兒虐事件中的一道重要防線。然而剴剴案事發至今，外部督導用一句「自己只是被動諮詢」來限縮自己之職責，將責任歸咎於經驗不足的居托中心本身。請問衛福部認為現行實務如此運作，符合社會安全網設置精神嗎？","2.目前衛福部對於外聘督導的資格，除了學經歷要求之外，並沒有更詳細的資格審查，當外部督導本身身兼多職，又在各縣市政府都有督導責任時，要如何確保每一個個案都能被確實關注？","3.劉彩萱、劉若琳兩位保母手中，遭受虐待的幼童就多達3位，可見居服中心與督導對於每一個個案的掌握的程度都不夠高。若外聘督導領鐘點費卻僅檢視該個案訪視報告的「形式完整性」，而未主動追蹤個案處理情形，便形成了「有權無責」的社安網問題。請問衛福部是否將具體研議將外聘督導績效納入機構評鑑？（例如同一人不得超過幾家機構的督導上限、外聘督導也須繳交督導紀錄資料）","本席認為，外聘督導有領取中央或地方政府的鐘點費，並不應該「有權無責」，並要求衛福部身為中央主管機關，應回頭檢視居托中心外聘督導之督導過程，是否僅檢視該個案訪視報告的「形式完整性」，而未主動追蹤個案處理情形。","本席亦具體建議衛福部應就外聘督導訂定相關職責指引，並要求其針對特殊個案（早療、脆弱家庭、兒少保護等托育兒童處遇；狀況保母）定期做個案檢視與討論。","【三、改隸衛福部管轄業務，是否真的有助於監督機構？】","1.衛福部去年9月曾表示，人民團體可依據自身業務與任務導向，選擇所屬主管機關，目前也沒有規定要求文教基金會不得從事社福業務。請問衛福部對於「所有」文教基金會更改主管機關的意見，是否已有更明確的態度與做法？","2.在現行社福相關業務中，仍有部分文教基金會同樣有經手屬於社政的親子館、托嬰中心、兒童臨時托育服務等業務，是否都應同樣更改主管機關，從教育部改為衛福部？","3.呈上，文教基金會若更改主管機關為衛福部後，在管理作為上可以達成何種成效？且依照衛福部現今的編制，將如何提高量能去管理眾多社福機構？"],["委員陳冠廷書面質詢：","主旨：關於性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為之質詢","一、「剴剴案」後，社福「外聘督導制度」失靈檢討與改革藍圖","1.「剴剴案」震驚社會，暴露出現行社福「外聘督導制度」嚴重失靈。作為兒少保護安全網重要環節，該制度理應及早發現並預防潛在風險，請說明：","(1)根據衛福部調查，目前全國社福機構外聘督導制度「失靈」的主要原因為何？是督導選任機制不當、督導專業性不足、還是督導意見缺乏約束力與追蹤機制？","(2)衛福部是否已全面檢視各縣市社福機構外聘督導執行現況？有多少比例的機構在督導執行頻率、方式或品質上不符合標準？請提供具體數據。","2.關於外聘督導制度改革，請說明：","(1)衛福部預計於何時提出外聘督導制度全面改革方案？其核心改革方向為何？","(2)針對督導人員的專業度與獨立性，衛福部是否考慮建立中央層級的「外聘督導人才資料庫」，並訂定嚴格的遴選標準與退場機制？","(3)針對督導意見的執行力，衛福部是否規劃修訂相關法規或行政規則，賦予督導意見更強的法律約束力，並建立未落實督導意見的課責機制？","3.地方政府在外聘督導制度中扮演重要角色，請說明：","(1)衛福部如何確保各地方政府對外聘督導制度的重視與落實？是否有具體的考核與獎懲機制？","(2)針對地方政府社會局處人力不足問題，衛福部是否有計畫增加相關預算與人力配置，以強化地方政府對外聘督導制度的監督能力？","二、提升《性騷擾防治法》運用成效與被害人信任度","1.《性騷擾防治法》修法後，延長了申訴時效並暢通外部申訴管道，請說明：","(1)修法前後，各地方政府受理性騷擾申訴案件數量變化為何？被害人對申訴處理結果的滿意度是否有所提升？請提供具體數據。","(2)民眾對《性騷擾防治法》的認知程度為何？衛福部是否進行過相關調查？若有，請提供調查結果；若無，衛福部是否計畫進行相關調查？","2.針對被害人支持服務，請說明：","(1)目前各縣市提供性騷擾被害人的支持服務內容、品質與可及性是否有差異？衛福部如何確保全國服務品質一致？","(2)衛福部是否考慮建立或補助地方政府設置「一站式性騷擾被害人支持中心」，提供被害人即時的情緒支持、法律諮詢、醫療協助等整合性服務？若有，請說明具體規劃與時程；若無，主要考量因素為何？","3.關於《性騷擾防治法》之宣導策略，請說明：","(1)衛福部針對不同群體（如青少年、職場人士、弱勢族群等）是否有差異化的宣導策略？請具體說明各族群的宣導計畫、預算與執行成效。","(2)針對高風險場域（如大眾運輸、娛樂場所、教育機構等），衛福部與相關部會是否有跨部會合作宣導計畫？請說明具體內容與執行進度。","請貴部就上述問題提供詳細說明，並提出具體可行的改革方案，以健全社福外聘督導制度並提升《性騷擾防治法》的實施成效。請於一個月內回覆。"],["委員邱鎮軍書面質詢：","邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。","剴剴案外聘督導制度精進作為","「剴剴受虐案」引發台灣社會各界質疑，要求政府徹查責任、並進行全面制度改革，此案暴露出台灣出養制系統欠缺督導、社工監督失靈、通報流程延宕等結構性問題。","本案發生後政府沒有為此召開「重大兒虐會議」，原因是當時衛福部認為重大兒虐事件的定義僅限「家內或監護人施虐」，保母因此被排除在外。","Q1：剴剴案暴露出我國出養制系統欠缺督導、社工監督失靈、通報流程延宕等結構性問題，也凸顯居家托育服務品質堪虞，請衛福部針對上開缺失提出檢討結果及因應改善作為為何？並說明如何確保並提升保母品質？如何發現、淘汰不適任保母？並請說明目前「重大兒虐會議」定義、對象為何？","Q2：根據檢方調查發現，本案負責訪視的陳姓社工曾於9月、10月與11月探視三次，皆回報「無異狀」，被控涉嫌造假訪談紀錄，於2024年8月遭檢方依偽造文書、過失致死等罪嫌起訴。請衛福部提供本案訪視員未確實訪視之檢討結果及未來如何改善？","Q3：根據媒體報導，剴剴案的劉姓保母是登記在文山居家托育服務中心，而該居托中心由台北市社會局長期委由大愛關懷協會經營關理，按規定文山居托服務中心必須定期到各保母家去訪視居家兒童照顧環境，而大愛關懷協會內部督導及聘請的外部督導，在本案過程中完全沒有發揮作用，請衛福部說明設置外聘督導之功能、目的為何？協助居托服務中心內容為何？又本案外聘督導之角色扮演與應負責任為何？","Q4：請衛福部說明外聘督導聘期、擔任外聘督導所需資格及每年領取之相關費用為何？","Q5：根據報導剴剴案所屬文山居托中心經營者大愛關懷協會聘請之外聘督導，在台北市12個行政區中同時身兼多區的外聘督導，並且可能還同時擔任其他直轄市、縣（市）的外聘督導，請衛福部查明本案外聘督導同時兼任多少外聘督導角色？並說明外聘督導兼任規定？","Q6：針對剴剴受虐案引發社會關注，在公共政策網路參與平台中，有13萬人連署要求調高虐童者刑責，法務部長鄭銘謙近日表示，虐童行為是人神共憤、天理難容，法務部正研議更周延的法律保護措施，請問衛福部立場為何？","台大醫師性騷擾案檢討及精進作為","針對台大醫院婦產部接連爆出性騷、性侵爭議，引發社會關注，外界質疑院方通報不全，北市衛生局在案發後並未接獲通報，僅有社會局獲報，導致涉案醫師離開台大後仍能在診所執業，未受到懲戒。","Q7：針對本案凸顯醫師懲戒委員會啟動時機，沒有明確法律規範，外界建議應修正醫師法、醫師懲戒辦法，明訂醫院通知衛生局啟動懲戒程序，請衛福部說明檢討結果，如何改善？","Q8：針對專家表示，性侵害案件平均審理時間從一年至五年不等，判決出爐前，須有糾正補救措施及簡化內部相關行政程序，以防止涉案醫師離開原醫院後，仍能到其他醫療機構職業，而無法預防繼續有潛在被害人受害，請衛福部說明如何改善？","Q9：針對醫院內部性平事件預防，除了事前教育、事後送性評委員會、懲戒委員會，衛福部有無內部稽核及預防作為之規定，如何加強預防發生〔醫對病〕、〔醫對護〕或病人對護理人員性騷擾的發生？","醫療暴力零容忍具體改善作為","Q10：針對修法加重醫療機構暴力零容忍後，醫療機構持續發生病患攻擊醫護人員事件，請衛福部說明提出具體改善作為為何？"],["委員廖偉翔書面質詢：","案由：","台北市文山區居托中心虐童事件顯示，居家托育服務中心訪視輔導員未依不預約訪視與不同時段訪視原則完成家庭訪視，導致有失職之處。同時外部督導與訪視員間缺乏有效協作，以便即時發現危險訊號，有改進之必要，爰向衛福部提出書面質詢。","說明：","1.外聘督導之一般性職責為何？外聘督導於兒虐案件中負何種責任？","2.衛福部及各直轄市、縣市政府將如何強化查核機制，確保不預約、不定時訪視原則落實，並完善訪視輔導員之績效考核？","3.針對去（113）年台北市文山區保母虐童案，訪視員曾3次進行家訪卻未察覺幼童持續受虐，而最後仍由醫院通報。根據《居家托育訪視工作指引》明訂訪視員需「親見收托兒童並與之互動」，並針對傷勢有拍照存證義務，但該案訪視員未發現異常，形同制度破口。請問衛福部，是否已啟動調查訪視紀錄與流程？若有可否提供相關訪視紀錄資料？","4.文山區該托育中心每季聘請外聘督導，其職責僅協助團督與流程建議，未實際參與個案審核與兒虐風險評估。惟據《社會工作督導支持及培力計畫》，外聘督導應具備個案管理、風險辨識、情緒支持等能力，且衛福部有編列相關預算，提供每案最高20萬元補助。請問衛福部是否會增修督導職責指引？是否應強制要求外督每月參與一線個案檢討、並定期回顧訪視紀錄？"],["委員黃捷書面質詢：","台大醫院數年前曾發生婦產部住院醫師於病房內性侵女病患，雖然台大醫院內部性平會已認定構成性騷擾，但由於院方未即時通報衛生局，導致該名住院醫師仍能持續接受訓練並診治病患，時間長達三年半，引發社會譁然，亦對病患安全造成重大疑慮。","針對此事，台大醫院主張其無須通報衛生局，理由為性騷擾防治法之主管機關為社會局；另因尚未判決確定，亦無法依醫師法第25條第2款「利用業務機會犯罪經判刑確定」規定移付懲戒。","然而，此等說法顯屬規避責任。根據醫師法第25條規定，醫師若有違背醫學倫理或業務上不正當行為，即可移付懲戒，並不必須等到刑事判決確定。因此，本案中既已由性平會認定性騷擾成立，應已符合「違背醫學倫理」之標準。","以下幾點敬請貴部於一個月內提供本辦書面回覆：","1.醫師若於診間或病房內對病患實施性騷擾，雖尚未判刑確定，但只要性平機制認定性騷擾成立，即可構成醫師法所定之「違背醫學倫理」或「業務上不正當行為」，足以啟動懲戒程序？","2.本案中台大醫院未將性騷擾成立之事實通報主管機關，未依醫師法第25條程序啟動懲戒，是否構成失職？衛福部是否將針對此類案件，明確通令各級醫療機構：凡經內部性平會認定醫師、護理師、藥師等醫事人員有違反《醫師法》25條第四款行為者、應於一定時限內通報主管機關進行懲戒調查？","3.針對醫療院所內性騷及性侵事件，檢討社會局及衛生局橫向聯繫及各自權責。","4.敬請說明狼醫查詢平台建置進度及規劃。建請衛福部釐清該名醫師於三年半執業期間內，調查是否仍有其他受害病患。"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在散會，謝謝大家。","散會（14時5分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":138,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-12","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","徐巧芯","盧縣一","黃國昌","劉建國","涂權吉","林淑芬","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","黃秀芳","洪孟楷","張啓楷","范雲","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","楊曜","賴惠員","葉元之","王育敏","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃捷"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazett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主席 借你的口就是講說凱凱案跟這個林業情沒有關係啊 給你說就好了主席我要講結論啦 大家委員都肥大你給他說就好你這個螢幕沒有出來啊 你影響到我的質詢的品質啊所以我的重點就是要講這些剛剛後面螢幕剛剛是有"},{"start":139.036,"end":140.757,"text":"那我委屈一點,那你要不要幫我講,你幫我講我就不要問了"},{"start":157.03,"end":182.248,"text":"好謝謝主席我想說次長這個很明顯就是說用這個圖表裡頭我們去看到了就是說社工督導跟外聘的一個督導其實在權職上在身份上在功能上其實是完全不同的最重要就是說社工督導其實他是管理就是我們機構內的主管所以他是可以介入個案的而且他事實上有他機構內部對他的指揮監督職責"},{"start":186.422,"end":212.101,"text":"機構內部對他的社工督導因為他是聘他作為社工督導所以他有指揮監督的責任是啊那外聘督導是不是就誠如就是說我們是辦一個那個講座然後這是我們邀請就是外來的一個顧問還是一個講師這樣子的一個性質我想機構請外聘督導事實上就是讓這些經驗豐富或者是具有更多不同職能專業能力的這些專家來"},{"start":213.762,"end":231.989,"text":"對於我們機構內部的督導或者是工作人員提升他的職能那提供他們更多的資源跟了解是 次長我請教你一下到底外聘督導他有沒有機會就是實際參與個案的一個環伺還是說他可以直接管理指揮我們機構內的人員嗎"},{"start":235.211,"end":256.799,"text":"實際上是說原來機構內部的社工督導或者是機構內他們的工作人員的訪視員或社工他事實上是在找外聘督導的過程中說我們需要請外聘督導來協助我們了解或給我們更多資訊說他也可以針對整個通案來做教育上面的協助"},{"start":257.259,"end":282.95,"text":"也可以針對特定個案說這個個案我處理得很困難或者說我有一些知識上的資訊我想市長你把這個外聘的一個督導跟我們的社工督導講的這個權責還有就是他的工作分配講得很清楚啦倒是本期有注意到國民黨之前有一位議員他在之前講的他說林彥琴就是受聘來監督整個居托房市計畫的一個督導"},{"start":285.071,"end":300.401,"text":"指控這個林委員隱匿身份假裝正義的第三方在這裡我想是不是就是說國民黨的議員其實對於就是整個志工的一個系統不熟悉所以他引用的一個錯誤"},{"start":301.562,"end":324.166,"text":"其實這完全就是說不是只有林業勤受到這樣的一個傷害在很多第一線的這個外聘的那個督導也受到了很多的一個傷害這個是混淆社社工就是這整體的社會對社工的一個認知當然我們也希望我們也希望藉由這樣的一個事件因為凱凱這是一個悲劇那這個悲劇在這個裡頭我們希望就是說"},{"start":328.707,"end":345.9,"text":"可以在這個整個事件裡頭我們得到了一些我們應該要得到的這個正確的一個那個觀念還有就是那個進捐兒童基金會這個是一個華人的一個基金會是不是"},{"start":347.684,"end":362.809,"text":"這個是進捐是法人基金會嗎對柴山法人我要請問一下這一位是我們的什麼官員社交署副署長你是我們科長科長科長我覺得你在立法院備詢你不應該是這樣的一個態度"},{"start":366.36,"end":379.204,"text":"當然我們知道就是說你們非常累了因為這個會議從早上9點到這個時候不要是這個樣子謝謝所以我想是這個是學校的一個好簡單的來講我想大家都把這個就是這兩個這兩個工作的前者講得非常清楚了我也不佔用大家太多的時間葉燕姿再來是葉燕姿嗎"},{"start":395.538,"end":401.361,"text":"你兩個不衝突啦不衝突啦好在這裡還是要強調啦就是說還給社會人員一個清白我們不要讓社會人員變成就是我們政治的一個提款機那這裡我也特別就是要跟這個"},{"start":424.753,"end":444.122,"text":"就我們的市長做一個建議就是說你們在督導這個地方政府的時候要明確去釐清外聘的一個督導的角色跟責任的一個邊界避免外界去誤會這個他的角色跟混淆第二個就是外聘的督導其實是很容易引發誤解的"},{"start":445.703,"end":473.12,"text":"所以說這個名稱需不需要修正這個我們把它當成是一個議題那也希望就是說大家來探討看看那希望就是兩個月內給我一個書面的一個資料那還有就是說我們的外聘專家改成外聘的顧問這個是不是更貼近我們的角色呢讓社會大眾可以了解清楚他的職責避免未來就是引發很多的一個認知上的一個錯誤"},{"start":474.661,"end":500.295,"text":"報告委員 因為外聘督導這個在社工界長期已經是這樣運作所以在名稱上或者是在他的這個權責上面我們會再去把他的這個角色跟責任邊界做一個釐清至於說名稱上面怎麼樣去處理請委員容我們再去做一個規劃好 那我們研究看看謝謝主持人 妳要不要補充一句我在這邊肯定所有全國的社工"},{"start":501.158,"end":522.837,"text":"你們都很辛苦那這種事情不然要發生那已經發生了那我們就要好好的處理往後不要再有這種悲劇那大家的那個收入也不是很高我看社工的待遇也不是很好大家都很辛苦所以在這邊再次跟大家肯定那也希望處長回去看他有什麼時間再關他沒有啦"},{"start":525.78,"end":533.204,"text":"好,大夫就更好,偏遠地區什麼昏殯醫院,那些都要給人家加薪啦,對不對,再來就是這個名稱,我今天開宗明義講,我都講督導"},{"start":538.24,"end":564.096,"text":"我都搞不清楚這是什麼內部督導外部督導今天聽到現在才搞清楚所以這個名稱這個頭銜可能要改這樣是不妥當的所以要改的東西要進步的東西很多我們就往正向正能量看今天排這個案子也不是說要去K誰都沒有我們是希望精進然後也沒有我都說對勢不對人所以大家"},{"start":565.037,"end":568.323,"text":"大家敞開心胸講謝謝賴委員謝謝主席謝謝蘇醫師謝謝委員謝謝各位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1391,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（13時46分）謝謝主席，我們這個血汗委員會，等了好幾個小時才輪到發言。","我請衛福部次長，還有社家署副署長。"],["林次長靜儀：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：次長，我想今天我們大家共同討論剴剴這個案子，我們也充分的討論，就誠如主席講的，他叫我隨便講講。"],["主席：我說講短一點。"],["賴委員惠員：好，我講短一點。我想跟次長、跟副署長做一個探討，所謂社工督導跟外聘督導，他們在權責方面其實有很多分工，性質上也有很大的差異，如果我們說社工督導是機構內的主管，那外聘督導就是機構外的顧問，是不是這樣子呢？"],["林次長靜儀：委員這張表其實做得很清楚，我想在現實的運作狀況下，大概就是像委員這樣子的分類。"],["賴委員惠員：等一下，時間暫停。主席，我的電腦螢幕沒有畫面。不然我不要問了，主席，借你的口，就是說剴剴案跟林月琴沒有關係，讓你說就好了！"],["主席：每個委員都一樣大，你自己說就好了。"],["賴委員惠員：可是螢幕畫面沒有出來，影響到我質詢的品質啊！而我的重點就是要講這些。"],["林次長靜儀：剛剛後面的大螢幕是有畫面。"],["賴委員惠員：主席，那我委屈一點，你要不要幫我講？你幫我講，我就不要問了。"],["主席：你講就好。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝主席。","次長，這個很明顯，在這個圖表裡我們看到了社工督導跟外聘督導在權責上、在身分上、在功能上其實是完全不同的，最重要的是社工督導是機構內的主管，所以他是可以介入個案的。"],["林次長靜儀：而且事實上機構內部對他有指揮監督之責。"],["賴委員惠員：啊？"],["林次長靜儀：機構內部對他的社工督導，因為是聘他做為社工督導，所以他有指揮監督的責任。"],["賴委員惠員：是啊！外聘督導是不是就像我們辦一個講座，然後我們邀請一個外來的顧問或是一個講師這樣子的性質？"],["林次長靜儀：我想機構請外聘督導，事實上就是讓經驗豐富，或者是具有更多不同知能、專業能力的這些專家對於機構內部的督導或者是工作人員，提升他的知能，提供他們更多的資源跟了解。"],["賴委員惠員：次長，我請教你一下，到底外聘督導有沒有機會實際參與個案的訪視？還是他可以直接管理指揮機構內的人員嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員這樣詢問，事實上是原來機構內部的社工督導，或者是機構內的工作人員、訪視員或社工是在找外聘督導的過程中，說我們需要請外聘督導來協助我們了解，或給我們更多資訊，他也可以針對整個通案做教育上面的協助。"],["賴委員惠員：是，沒錯。"],["林次長靜儀：也可以針對特定個案，如果這個個案處理得很很困難，或者說有一些知識上的資訊需要幫忙。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。次長，你把外聘督導跟社工督導的權責，還有工作分配講得很清楚。但是本席有注意到國民黨有一位議員之前說林月琴就是受聘來監督整個居托訪視計畫的督導，指控林委員隱匿身分，假裝正義的第三方，我想是不是國民黨的議員對於整個社工系統不熟悉，所以他引用錯誤？其實不是只有林月琴受到這樣的傷害，很多在第一線的外聘督導也受到很多傷害，這個是混淆整體社會對社工的認知。當然我們也希望藉由這樣一個事件，因為剴剴是一個悲劇，在這個悲劇當中，我們希望可以從這整個事件裡得到一些應該要得到的正確觀念。","另外，靖娟兒童基金會是一個法人基金會，是不是？"],["林次長靜儀：靖娟是財團法人。"],["賴委員惠員：請問這一位是什麼官員？"],["林次長靜儀：是社家署副署長"],["賴委員惠員：另外那位是？"],["張副署長美美：我們的科長。"],["賴委員惠員：科長，我覺得你在立法院備詢不應該是這樣一個態度，當然我們知道你們非常累了，因為這個會議從早上9點到這個時候，但不要這個樣子，謝謝。","好，簡單來講，我想大家都把這兩個工作權責講得非常清楚了，我也不占用大家太多的時間。","再來是葉元之發言嗎？葉元之要繼續講？這樣我就要繼續講了，不然我如果少講了，葉元之就多說了。"],["主席：你們兩個不衝突啦！"],["賴委員惠員：不衝突啦！在這裡還是要強調，就是還給社福人員一個清白，我們不要讓社福人員變成政治的提款機，在這裡我也特別跟次長提出建議：你們在督導地方政府的時候要明確去釐清外聘督導的角色跟責任的邊界，避免外界誤會跟混淆了他的角色。第二個就是外聘督導很容易引發誤解，所以這個名稱需不需要修正？我們把它當成是一個議題，也希望大家來探討看看，希望在兩個月內給我一個書面資料。"],["林次長靜儀：好。"],["賴委員惠員：還有，外聘專家改成外聘顧問是不是更貼近我們的角色呢？讓社會大眾可以了解清楚他的職責，避免未來引發很多認知上的錯誤。"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，因為外聘督導在社工界已經是長期這樣運作了，所以在名稱上或者在權責上，我們會再去把他的角色跟責任邊界做一個釐清，至於名稱上面怎麼樣去處理，請委員容我們再做一些規劃。"],["賴委員惠員：好，那我們研究看看。謝謝主席。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：你要我補充，我就幫你補充幾句。"],["賴委員惠員：好。"],["主席：我在這邊肯定所有全國的社工，你們都很辛苦，這種事情沒有人願意發生，已經發生了，我們就要好好處理，往後不要再有這種悲劇。"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["主席：大家的收入也不是很高，我看社工的待遇也不是很好，大家都很辛苦，所以在這邊再次跟大家肯定，也希望次長回去看能不能讓社工的薪水更高一點，好不好？"],["林次長靜儀：好。"],["主席：讓他們的待遇更好一點，偏遠地區、豐濱醫院那些都要給人家加薪啦！這樣對嗎？"],["賴委員惠員：好，附議。"],["主席：再來就是這個名稱，我今天開宗明義就講，督導──我都搞不清楚什麼內部督導、外部督導，今天聽到現在才搞清楚。"],["賴委員惠員：是啊。"],["主席：所以這個名稱、這個頭銜可能要改，這樣是不妥當的，所以要改的東西、要進步的東西很多，我們就往正向、正能量看，今天排這個案子也不是說要「K」誰，都沒有！我們就是希望精進，我都說對事不對人，所以大家就敞開心胸講。謝謝賴委員，謝謝次長。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：我替你講了喔！"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員，謝謝召委。"],["主席：繼續請葉元之質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":138,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-12","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","徐巧芯","盧縣一","黃國昌","劉建國","涂權吉","林淑芬","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","黃秀芳","洪孟楷","張啓楷","范雲","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","楊曜","賴惠員","葉元之","王育敏","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃捷"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145201_00002"}}},{"id":"161770","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161770","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db50ad3fd8e05210bfcdb65d50a7385bb67364d18bd4e850e8cb8972f08e7de1aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"13:36:43 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是嗎"},{"start":156.658,"end":172.164,"text":"我們民間的社工如果他經過考核接受政府委託或是補助的社工我們目前已經有一套進階的機制那他如果考核通過一年就可以每一年加一千所以這個部分是沒有調的"},{"start":173.944,"end":198.599,"text":"民間社工也是有調那第二個跟委員關心的那個約聘僱的這個社工呢第一個他這群人他也是有考核的那如果考核通過呢他也是可以調整他的薪資第二個是當公務人員調薪的時候他也是公務員所以他也可以調我現在講的是非公職人員的定額的部分就每一年加1000塊的部分"},{"start":203.027,"end":216.119,"text":"這個你可能不大理解我的問題那這個問題我在我原來的意思是說那個1000是不是固定沒有隨著那個調整固定1000 1000往上啦"},{"start":222.545,"end":225.088,"text":"市長請回座我再問一下市長市長就是說我們現在是到7年就停"},{"start":238.123,"end":251.935,"text":"你們有沒有考慮七年以後當然假如每一年都加可能在財政的負擔上太大你們有沒有考慮七年以後就是每兩年或每三年"},{"start":255.069,"end":272.266,"text":"再有獎勵的方式那謝謝委員因為委員您這邊提到一年加一千那的確就是民間的社工的目前的新制的一個制度那目前為止我們的確是行政院核定的是最多可以進七次"},{"start":272.706,"end":292.559,"text":"就是七階但是我們目前在規劃那個商案2.0的時候我們也已經有提出來我們希望為公部門的社工的薪資在爭取的過程那我們同時也要來爭取民間社工的一個薪資所以我們已經也提出來說想要在民間社工薪資七階我們希望再增加"},{"start":293.739,"end":310.067,"text":"目前我們正在彙整資料跟行政院來做報告每年都加可能會有問題可是七年過後就停,這個也會有一些問題所以我們會繼續爭取"},{"start":314.065,"end":331.565,"text":"市長我們在5月10號凱道集結了超過1萬個人他們大概提出了六大訴求我看他們裡面有一個訴求是推動訪視助理員的制度我想請教一下市長就是"},{"start":332.887,"end":344.114,"text":"助理現在我們沒有仿視助理員的制度對不對那仿視助理員的工作是不是就是由現在的社工在做"},{"start":345.595,"end":364.419,"text":"因為我大概有關心的一下齁,那這個訪視員應該是在托育這方面的訪視的工作,那是不是可以由我們社家署來做一個說明?那個,呃,各位委員報告,就是我們在那個保姆的管理裡面其實是叫做訪視輔導員。訪視什麼員?訪視輔導員。輔導員。是。就是訪視助理員。"},{"start":372.486,"end":396.482,"text":"他們的訴求跟你們現在的訪視輔導員不一樣不一樣那不一樣為什麼社交組跑出來回答這個應該是社工司的吧不是因為他是整個托育業務的一部分就是說他的目的是不是在預防"},{"start":398.676,"end":409.427,"text":"進行預防性的訪視跟高風險家庭的追蹤報告委員其實這個案子因為我們去年就已經在4月30跟5月1號我們事實上另外針對就是訪視輔導員的功能跟訪視輔導員這邊針對特殊個案"},{"start":414.932,"end":443.124,"text":"他可能會有增強他的能力跟訪視評次的部分所以我們去年事實上已經重新訂定了直轄市跟縣市政府居家托育服務中心訪視工作指引那這個指引事實上就是請這個居家托育這邊要做分級的訪視跟輔導那這些訪視輔導員呢他事實上採取的是不預約跟安排不同的時段去訪視那這個過程中假設他是特殊需求譬如說是發育遲緩的小兒童出養的兒童家外安置的兒童或者是"},{"start":443.604,"end":460.189,"text":"他收治的兒童有照顧風險跟持續受傷的情況的話那這個仿式輔導員他應該要增加至少他應該增加的仿式次數到至少六次所以這個是去年在針對這一個居家托育服務中心的仿式輔導員我們就有加強了這個部分"},{"start":460.549,"end":484.312,"text":"那我們能不能理解說他的訴求裡面的推動訪視助理員制度我們現在已經在做了他們這個訪視助理員制度我這樣聽起來比較像是他們可能覺得訪視輔導員不夠但是我們也在是數量不夠還是工作範圍不夠我們不清楚他提我請謝委員"},{"start":486.774,"end":514.703,"text":"這個凱道的這一群我們的民間友人他想要仿照瑞典有一個制度就是比較是初級預防的一個仿式助理有點像是預防性的一個服務那其實台灣沒有這個仿式助理員沒有這個制度但是我們有很多的支持性的服務方案那其實他的性質跟瑞典這個性質是很像的"},{"start":515.043,"end":533.803,"text":"也就是說我們現有的人力跟制度其實已經是Cover掉他們現在要推動的這個制度 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是的 是"},{"start":534.744,"end":557.197,"text":"我也覺得好像是像你們這樣答覆的就是說可能是名稱的問題那有沒有建立一個制度其實並不是重點重點是相關的工作到底夠不夠人力做那人力到底有沒有把工作落實好這個才是重點"},{"start":557.937,"end":576.654,"text":"是不是在制度內部該工作的每個職種都有好好的去處理不要漏溝去讓他不要漏溝的部分在制度內部可以一個一個把可能的漏洞補起來對 重點大概是這樣子謝謝市長 謝謝主席謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝楊委員 謝謝市長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1337,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（13時37分）謝謝主席。主席，我請一下社工司蘇司長，讓林靜儀休息一下。"],["蘇司長昭如：委員好。"],["楊委員曜：司長，我們來討論幾個有關社工的問題。在社工的職涯上，我們招募這麼困難，大概它存在幾個問題。普遍我們會認為低薪、勞務高，然後職涯發展沒有很大的期待性。這三個大問題、這三個困境，公部門比較有可能著力的大概就是薪資的部分，所以本席先跟你討論一下社工薪資的部分。","其實社工大概會隨公務員調薪、加薪，對不對？相較於過去的本薪和加給，原本都是薪點制度，可是現在我們加給的部分，包括年資、碩士學歷、社工師執照等等，我們都是採取定額的方式，那會不會影響未來……譬如說軍公教調薪的時候，它定額的部分其實是沒有辦法調的，你懂我的意思嗎？我的問題你能理解嗎？"],["蘇司長昭如：謝謝委員一直很關心社工的一些福利待遇。社工的分布可能在民間單位，也可能在公部門。在公部門裡面有一些是公職社工師，他就是跟正式的公務員是一樣的……"],["楊委員曜：對，公職的不算，他就跟著公務員調嘛！"],["蘇司長昭如：是。第二類就是約聘僱人員，約聘僱人員目前是用薪點的方式沒有錯，但因為他也是廣義的公務人員，因此公務人員加薪時他也是跟著加的。"],["楊委員曜：對，就是本俸的部分可以加。我現在講的是我們每一年加1,000塊，這1,000塊是定額的，不會隨著公務員加……"],["蘇司長昭如：委員講的1,000塊可能是民間單位的，是嗎？我們民間的社工如果經過考核，接受政府委託或是補助的社工我們目前已經有一套進階的機制。他如果考核通過，一年就可以加1,000塊。"],["楊委員曜：每一年加1,000的這個部分是沒有調的？"],["蘇司長昭如：民間社工也是有調。委員關心的約聘僱的社工部分：第一個，這群人也是有考核的，如果考核通過，他也是可以調整薪資；第二個，當公務人員調薪的時候，因為他也是公務人員，所以他也可以調。"],["楊委員曜：我現在講的是非公職人員的定額部分，就是每一年加1,000塊的部分。"],["蘇司長昭如：這個應該就是民間的社工……"],["楊委員曜：沒關係，你可能不大理解我的問題，這個問題我再……"],["林次長靜儀：委員的意思說那個1,000元是不是固定，沒有隨著我們那個調整？"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["林次長靜儀：它就是1,000元，固定1,000元、1,000元往上。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["林次長靜儀：沒有跟隨我們的公務人員調薪再增加3%。"],["楊委員曜：對，這個部分是沒有再增加的，這個你們考慮一下，次長請回座。"],["林次長靜儀：好。"],["楊委員曜：我再問一下司長，我們現在是到7年就停，當然假如每一年都加，可能在財政的負擔上太大，但你們有沒有考慮7年以後，就是每兩年或每三年再有獎勵的方式？"],["蘇司長昭如：謝謝委員。因為委員您這邊提到的1年加1,000元，那的確就是目前民間社工薪資的一個制度，目前為止行政院核定的最多可以進7次，就是7階，但是我們目前在規劃那個專案2.0的時候，我們已經有提出來，我們希望在為公部門社工薪資爭取的過程，我們同時也要來爭取民間社工的薪資，所以我們已經也提出來了，對於民間社工薪資的7階，我們希望再增加，目前我們正在彙整資料跟行政院報告。"],["楊委員曜：對，因為每年都加可能會有問題，可是7年過後就停也會有一些問題，對不對？"],["蘇司長昭如：是，所以我們會繼續爭取。謝謝。"],["楊委員曜：司長，5月10號在凱道集結了超過1萬人，他們大概提出了六大訴求，我看到他們裡面有一個訴求是推動訪視助理員制度，我想要請教一下司長，現在我們沒有訪視助理員的制度，對不對？訪視助理員的工作是不是就是由現在的社工在做？"],["蘇司長昭如：我大概有關心了一下，訪視員應該是在托育這方面的訪視工作，是不是可以由社家署來說明？"],["楊委員曜：可以。"],["張副署長美美：跟委員報告，我們在保母的管理裡面其實是叫做訪視輔導員。"],["楊委員曜：就是訪視助理員？他們的訴求跟你們現在的訪視輔導員一不一樣？"],["張副署長美美：不一樣，應該是不一樣。"],["楊委員曜：不一樣？"],["張副署長美美：對。"],["楊委員曜：不一樣，為什麼社家署跑出來回答？這個應該是社工師的吧？"],["蘇司長昭如：不是，因為它是整個托育業務的一部分。"],["楊委員曜：就是它的目的是不是在進行預防性的訪視跟高風險家庭的追蹤？"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，其實這個案子已經在去年4月30號跟5月1號另外針對訪視輔導員的功能，跟訪視輔導員針對特殊個案可能會增強它的能力跟訪視頻次的部分，所以我們去年事實上已經重新訂定直轄市、縣（市）政府居家托育服務中心訪視工作指引，這個指引就是請居家托育這邊要做分級的訪視跟輔導，這些訪視輔導員事實上採取的是不預約跟安排不同的時段去訪視，這個過程中，假設是特殊需求，譬如說是發育遲緩的兒童、出養的兒童、家外安置的兒童，或者是收治的兒童有照顧風險跟持續受傷情況的話，這個訪視輔導員應該要增加訪視次數至少到6次，所以這個是去年針對居家托育服務中心的訪視輔導員，我們就有加強了這個部分。"],["楊委員曜：我們能不能理解為他們的訴求裡面推動訪視助理員制度，我們現在已經在做了？"],["林次長靜儀：他們所謂的訪視助理員制度，我這樣聽起來比較像是他們可能覺得訪視輔導員不夠，但是我們也在……"],["楊委員曜：是數量不夠還是工作範圍不夠？"],["林次長靜儀：我們不清楚他們提的……"],["張司長秀鴛：謝謝委員。凱道這一群我們的民間友人想要仿照瑞典有一個制度，比較是初級預防的訪視助理，有點像是預防性的服務，其實臺灣沒有訪視助理員這個制度，但是我們有很多支持性的服務方案，其實它的性質跟瑞典這個性質是很像的。"],["楊委員曜：也就是說，我們現有的人力跟制度其實已經cover掉他們現在要推動的這個制度。"],["張司長秀鴛：是的。"],["楊委員曜：可以這樣子理解？"],["張司長秀鴛：可以。"],["楊委員曜：我還是這樣子講，我自己看了資料，我也覺得好像是像你們現在答復的，就是可能是名稱的問題，有沒有建立一個制度其實並不是重點，重點是相關的工作到底夠不夠人力做？人力到底有沒有把工作落實好？這個才是重點！"],["林次長靜儀：是，是不是在制度內部該工作的每一個職種都有好好的去處理，中間不要漏掉。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["林次長靜儀：讓它不要漏掉的這個部分，在制度內部可以一個一個把可能的漏洞補起來。"],["楊委員曜：對，重點大概是這樣子。好，謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員，謝謝次長。","顏寬恒、顏寬恒、顏寬恒委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","繼續請賴惠員質詢，重點講一講就好了。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":138,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-12","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","徐巧芯","盧縣一","黃國昌","劉建國","涂權吉","林淑芬","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","黃秀芳","洪孟楷","張啓楷","范雲","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","楊曜","賴惠員","葉元之","王育敏","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃捷"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145201_00002"}}},{"id":"161769","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161769","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db5a06eb428762e94b020ad028569f7f2f7364d18bd4e850e8a1c492a21a7eb66e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"13:40:16 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報告委員我們三個月以內會提出細部的計畫因為這個事情牽扯其實相當的廣包括我們未來整個檢測的機制但我要提醒的是所以三個月以內會提出細部"},{"start":178.561,"end":204.096,"text":"你現在說三個月了但我要提醒的是很多的事情讓民眾會如此的擔憂不是說無中生有一定是有潛力就是我們面對網路新聞媒體的速度很快但是後續真正去實際政策改革的時候很慢我怎麼說我們升降尾門所產生的事故所造成的傷亡你目前掌握有多少人升降尾門"},{"start":206.765,"end":225.96,"text":"貨車會有所謂的卸貨有一個升降尾門然後他在停的時候卸貨造成這個升降尾門呈平線然後變成視野無法去辨識造成撞擊產生的死亡您知道這個有死亡事故嗎這個事故我不曉得數字"},{"start":227.281,"end":254.016,"text":"來 我也不曉得數字啊但我要簡單跟你講網路搜尋我們都有一些相關的新聞報導兩年前就有一起兩年有點久了那每一起事故所造成他是死亡喔造成死亡我們就必須要改革嘛兩年前了這樣子的事故發生我們也沒有去做改革啊到三個月前你問你旁邊三個月前是不是還有一名我記得是夫妻造成傷亡對嗎"},{"start":257.95,"end":282.097,"text":"跟我們報告就是說呃就是停在路邊卸貨呃這一個升降尾門操操作不當而造成這一個呃受傷的部分的話就是說呃會有這樣操作不當我用字再更精準一點他基本上是已經完全停放在那邊了啦沒有再使用了但是就是因為他是平行線的然後升降尾門層層一條線啊黑暗的時候呢的確也看不太清楚直接就撞上了"},{"start":282.757,"end":297.776,"text":"所以在這個部分我要講的是3月27我們召開了一場有關貨車升降尾門的記者會我們呼籲對於升降尾門必須要有警示燈跟車尾燈兩者缺一不可而且車安中心也有召開會議預計什麼時候新車要開始安裝部長這個我們有規劃嗎"},{"start":301.809,"end":322.452,"text":"有 跟委員報告就是說 上次委員的一個這個意見那我們請車站中心邀請車體公務會大家來這個開會那目前這個車站中心在整理這些相關如果說要這個規定的規範是如何我想車站中心送上來之後我們會再來所以我要講的是嘛 部長"},{"start":323.293,"end":337.914,"text":"兩年前就發生一起傷亡了三個月前又一起傷亡人命不斷的流失結果我們呼籲了這麼久結果呢到現在你還是沒辦法給我一個允諾時間什麼時候可以開始安裝啊"},{"start":338.612,"end":367.205,"text":"跟我們報告一下那個車輛硬體是一塊那但是這個我們公務總局這個就是說給這個貨車的駕駛人指引裡面就有要求這些駕駛人的升降尾門他操作完畢之後一定要下來而且都要放這些指引我都知道就是因為你的這份指引還是造成傷亡嘛沒有用啊優先還是要因為這個駕駛人我們在記者會上建議新車115年1月1日開始安裝有沒有困難"},{"start":370.834,"end":385.709,"text":"有沒有困難做安裝115年1月1日安裝有沒有困難跟我們報告一下這個牽涉到就是說安裝那如果說只是去貼這個LED燈的話那個是這一個很快但是你整個要把他納到那個車輛設計裡面讓他做連動"},{"start":388.451,"end":414.598,"text":"來啦不管是新車跟舊車我們都希望有一些精進部長車安中心這一本記錄3月27的會議拖了超過一個月到5月7號才有會議記錄車安中心5月27還要針對車輛刑事安全審驗的一個管理辦法召開一個會議請問這次為什麼升降尾門的警示燈跟車尾騎案子沒有列入會議討論怎麼又不討論了這件事情不重要嗎"},{"start":415.458,"end":433.997,"text":"部長今天我提出這個問題就像你昨天開的記者會你面對問題願意解決問題可是你下面這些相關的一些主管機關並沒有去積極的面對嘛升降尾門就是其中一個我們今天把所有的案例關注在我們的這個三峽事件我們當然要重視"},{"start":435.118,"end":464.538,"text":"這個很重要可是三個月前才發生傷亡的升降尾門到現階段都還沒有具體的精進方案甚至連會議都不列入討論然後告訴你們1月1號明年的1月1號可不可以開始全面新車安裝沒有一個確定的答案所以我們對於政府現階段不信任嘛有一個這樣子的一個部長願意面對但是下面的人不願意去處理最後還是結論沒有所以今天部長你能不能承諾升降尾門能不能積極面對你能不能開始要求"},{"start":464.858,"end":485.026,"text":"我們部裡面自己我請這個公運監理師他們自己先來召開會議看如何精進這個部分我們部裡面先來做部長我今天舉出這個案例拜託你一定要稍微了解因為剛剛有稍微問你你也不太了解這樣的事故事故的多元性我當然能夠體諒但是這個事故我覺得這還有其必要性好嗎好 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請教部長在目前我們面臨到了這樣的一個情況我們要怎麼樣"},{"start":99.315,"end":117.888,"text":"去優化值呢我們的方案應對是什麼請做說明好 報告委員整體的這個駕照管理的部分我們其實分三個部分一個是新考照的部分那第二個是考完照之後你有違規或者是造勢的樣態我們需要有回訊的機制這個是另外一個"},{"start":118.668,"end":129.678,"text":"現在社會上大家比較關注的是年長者的換照年長者的換照我今天早上的說明其實也有說明過台灣已經很快速的進入了超高齡社會現在有182萬人是70歲以上的駕駛人"},{"start":133.982,"end":160.945,"text":"那10年之後會有272萬人這是相當大比例的一個人口的數字那我們就要有更完善的協助年長者的這個安全駕駛的協助的機制所以我們會用換照的模式來協助這些年長者在換照的過程當中我們除了認知測驗之外還有危險感知的測驗另外我們針對學習的部分我們的這個課程也會加進來讓他可以做訓練"},{"start":162.386,"end":186.993,"text":"這個部分我們一樣一樣都會加進來所以未來在年長者的部分我們甚至在年齡的部分當然我們現在仿效日本啦因為日本其實比我們更早十年進入超高齡社會他們對於高齡者的這個駕照的管理其實有一套的機制他們有兩個方案去處理他的管理機制而且他將他的車子防衝爆這也是一個方法"},{"start":187.973,"end":205.199,"text":"所以本身要請教的就是說我們目前所面臨到的這一些我們是越來越多的年長者他們也有這個需求所以我們要怎麼樣政府的方案到底是要怎麼樣那您早上也說了是不是將75歲來調降為5歲調降到70歲"},{"start":209.76,"end":229.032,"text":"那原本的身體機能評估認知這個是原本就已經有了我們會再更加強那你要更加強所以本學要請教你們具體的時間表我們總是知道我的問題社會的問題在哪裡希望大家都能夠安心那所以你多久時間可以把你的精進方案拿出來"},{"start":229.592,"end":251.985,"text":"報告委員我們在三個月之內會提出精進的方案那我們希望在明年度也就是115年度可以來落實這樣子的方案三個月拿出你們的精進方案第二個針對於這20.5萬83歲以上的長者早年制度排除的這部分怎麼處理呢報告委員這個部分我們還是盡量想辦法把它納進來"},{"start":253.935,"end":279.474,"text":"是跟委員報告這一個83歲以上的其實這個目前其實多數的這個年長者其實並沒有開車那動態的管理我們在83歲以上的話他有其他還有在使用車輛而且有違規的話那我們會就是通知他們三個月內也是要來做這一個我們的認知功能測驗所以這個結論也就是本席具體建議給我們部長"},{"start":280.535,"end":305.726,"text":"我們發覺到這樣子的問題的樣態人數都已經告訴你我們要怎麼樣去精進優化這非常重要我期待給你您說的三個月內的這個方案趕快要給社會大眾去安心去安心接下來本期要請教今年1月到4月我們高工局的統計國道共有17起的AI交通事故"},{"start":306.326,"end":325.573,"text":"造成了人員當場或者24小時死亡的交通事故那是22人死亡那其中有14起的肇事形態是追撞的事故我們比較去年同期是8起所以它的增加率是75%面對這樣子75%"},{"start":329.554,"end":349.29,"text":"增加的這個逐年升高的致死風險所以本學要在這邊請教部長你針對於AI這樣子的AI類的一個追蹤事故它的一個年增率是如此那這樣子的情況之下高風險的區域你要有什麼的方案來應對呢"},{"start":350.365,"end":376.192,"text":"是 報告員 這個我看了這個數據之前高工局也有讓我知道這件事這個追撞的案子確實一直在增加那我們現在正在分析說他這些案例到底是為什麼追撞會這麼快速的增加那防範的部分當然除了宣導以外更重要的是事情如果我們有分析出原因我舉個例啦 不一定你那個分析要多久時間因為大家非常的希望一定要安全你自己都知道"},{"start":376.932,"end":392.644,"text":"高官主席給你看過自己要知道這是嚴肅的議題而且他的增加率這麼高我們觀光統計1到4月份就這樣子70幾%這嚇死人了那這怎麼辦呢生命誠可貴那你知道原因那你們分析大概要多久時間"},{"start":393.345,"end":408.283,"text":"包括一個月以內我請高工局提供資訊給委員好不好一個月內分析出來應對方案而去執行之 討論可以去執行之以防範這樣的一個安全最後一個議題我具體給你也就是台鐵北迴線"},{"start":410.41,"end":431.865,"text":"那我跟您討論的是像這一次呢何人跟到那個崇德的這一段土石流沒辦法老天爺給我們這樣子的一個考驗大家全力以赴我們現場的工作人員投入了搶救連續工作14個小時都沒有換班都沒有換班我們長官要去他們還在那邊等所以基層生意很大"},{"start":432.922,"end":442.646,"text":"已經違反了我們的勞基法那部長你認為這樣的事件OK嗎可以如此嗎我們搶救就是一定要搶救我們的員工全力全力全力以赴我們要讚許他在他們沒有搶救的時間點還要讓他們在那邊等待你覺得適度嗎是有一點耽擱但是是有換班所以不可以耽擱啊對不對"},{"start":458.112,"end":480.277,"text":"你們怎麼沒有違反就已經超過了啊怎麼會沒有違反是接班的人的這個交通問題所以他有點耽擱但是都有換班所以我們的人員第一線他已經那麼辛苦了你們要照顧他啊我們一定會照顧職程員工是不是不可以再讓他無謂的浪費他的時間啊他已經這麼辛苦了啊是是是是不是好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2098,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時31分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言。邀請部長。"],["主席：陳部長嗎？交通部還是？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：交通部。"],["主席：請交通部陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，我想新北三峽區發生重大的事故，全國都很緊張，大家想要知道到底是什麼原因，同時也希望能夠知道政府的應對方式。我們看到2017年的時候，我們實施75歲以上高齡駕駛人換照機制，而且每三年要重新評估認知和身體機能。但是我們看到統計數據，有5.6萬人沒有完成換照的手續，這是第一個議題。第二個，有20.5萬人是83歲以上長者，因為早年制度就排除掉了。所以這兩個部分沒有換照、沒有排除，仍舊是有效的駕照。在這樣的情況之下，他沒有經過定期的評估，似乎大家提出了這個疑慮。請教部長，目前我們面臨到這樣的情況，要怎樣去優化呢？我們的方案、應對是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，整體的駕照管理可以分三個部分：一個是新考照的部分；第二個是考完照之後，你有違規或肇事的樣態，我們需要有回訓的機制；而現在社會上大家比較關注的是年長者的換照問題。年長者的換照我在今天早上其實有說明過，臺灣已經很快速的進入超高齡社會，現在有182萬人是70歲以上的駕駛人，10年之後會有272萬人，這是相當大比率的人口數字，我們就要有更完善的協助年長者安全駕駛的機制，所以我們會用換照的模式協助這些年長者。在換照的過程中，除了認知測驗之外，還有危險感知的測驗，另外我們針對學習的部分，課程也會加進來，讓他可以訓練，這個部分我們一樣一樣都會加進來。未來在年長者的部分，甚至在年齡的部分，當然，我們現在是仿效日本，因為日本比我們更早10年進入超高齡社會，他們對高齡者的駕照管理其實有一套機制。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他們有兩個方案去處理，一個是管理機制；一個是車子的防衝暴，這也是一個方法。本席要請教的是，我們目前面臨越來越多的年長者，他們也有這個需求，政府的方案到底是要怎麼樣？你早上也說了，是不是將75歲換照調降5歲至70歲？至於原本的身體機能、評估認知是原本就已經有的。"],["陳部長世凱：會更加強。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請教你們具體的時間表，我們總要知道社會的問題在哪裡，希望大家都能夠安心，所以你多久時間可以把你的精進方案拿出來？"],["陳部長世凱：我們在3個月內會提出精進的方案，我們希望在明年度，也就是115年度可以落實這樣的方案。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：3個月拿出你們的精進方案。第二個，針對這20.5萬83歲以上的長者、早年制度排除的，這部分怎麼處理呢？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們還是儘量想辦法把他納進來。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，83歲以上年長者目前多數其實並沒有開車，所以我們採動態的管理，83歲以上還有使用車輛且有違規的話，我們會通知他在3個月內來做認知功能測驗、來換照。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以這個結論也就是本席具體建議給部長，我們發覺到這樣的問題，也把樣態、人數都告訴你，接下來要怎樣去精進優化非常重要，我期待你在3個月內趕快提出方案讓社會大眾安心。","根據今年1月到4月高公局的統計，國道共有17起A1交通事故，造成人員當場或24小時死亡的交通事故是22人死亡，其中有14起的肇事型態是追撞事故，比較去年同期是8起，所以增加率是75%。面對這樣增加75%、逐年升高的致死風險，本席要在這邊請教部長，針對A1類的追撞事故年增率如此高，你有什麼方案應對呢？"],["陳部長世凱：我看了這個數據，之前高公局也有讓我知道這件事。追撞的案子確實一直在增加，我們現在正在分析這些案例到底為什麼追撞會這麼快速增加。防範的部分除了宣導以外，更重要的是事前如果我們有分析出原因，我舉個例子，不一定是真的這樣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的分析要多久時間？大家非常希望一定要安全，你自己都知道這是嚴肅的議題，高公局也讓你看過，而且增加率這麼高，光統計1到4月就增加百分之七十幾，這嚇死人！這怎麼辦呢？生命誠可貴，你知道原因，你們分析大概要多久時間？"],["陳部長世凱：我們1個月以內請高公局提供資訊給委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：1個月內分析並討論出可以應對執行的方案，以防範安全。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題，我具體給你建議，臺鐵北迴線這次和仁到崇德這一段土石流，老天爺給我們這樣的考驗，大家只好全力以赴。現場的工作人員投入搶救，連續工作14個小時都沒有換班，我們長官要去，他們還要在那邊等，所以基層聲音很大，已經違反勞基法，部長，你認為這樣的事情OK嗎？可以如此嗎？搶救當然是一定要搶救，員工也全力以赴，我們要讚許他啊！在他們沒有搶救的時間點，還要他們在那邊等待，你覺得適當嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：他們有換班，是有一點耽擱，但是有換班。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不可以耽擱啊！"],["陳部長世凱：我們不會去違反勞基法。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們怎麼沒有違反？都已經超過了啊！"],["陳部長世凱：是接班的人有交通問題，所以有點耽擱，但是都有換班。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第一線人員已經那麼辛苦了，我們要照顧他啊！"],["陳部長世凱：我們一定會照顧基層員工，沒問題，第一線員工我們都會特別照顧。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不可以再讓他無謂的浪費他的時間啊！他已經這麼辛苦了，是不是？"],["陳部長世凱：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席（許委員智傑）：剛剛林國成召委問到明天會議進行資通安全管理法修正草案的逐條審查，共有20案，因為本會於4月24日第八次會議已經詢答完畢，因此明天就不再進行詢答，於繼續宣讀增列的6個草案條文後，即進行全部20個草案之逐條審查處理。","請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-12","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","黃健豪","何欣純","蔡其昌","徐富癸","邱若華","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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沒弄所以我希望這個你要把它當成是一回事然後來做一些研究參考國外"},{"start":251.956,"end":274.348,"text":"參考我們這個好 接著下一張來好 所以這個都不是主要的啦好 來 接下來好 那這個還有一點我還要建議啦真的要換照那還是要考慮它違規紀錄的這些要納入考慮就像那個三峽這個案子78歲這個這個疑性這個肇事者"},{"start":278.05,"end":305.944,"text":"我說實在的他已經有前車之鑑已經有記錄了他還是二月份就可以去換照成功這一點我是認為我們還是要納入改革的方向好不好所以針對這個部分我要拜託部長還是你有你的想法但是我不希望你們以前所做研究現在事實上是不符合時代的不是降年齡就可以解決啦"},{"start":306.624,"end":311.037,"text":"所以多方面的去做改革才有辦法建這個那最後部長你可以請回來"},{"start":315.609,"end":339.261,"text":"部長你可以請回陳部長好我最後的時間啊算那個也不要用太多黃部長你知不知道你們在補助啊拿了補助以後拿了補助以後啊卻對以中共的做比較來你看一下這個拿了台灣的補助"},{"start":340.675,"end":366.013,"text":"給中國的優惠這點我跟你講我不是反對跟中國而是這種東西台灣跟中國要對等這也是我們政府啊一直在要求的東西耶你怎麼拿我們台灣的補助那中國優惠台灣不優惠這是不公平的報告 報告委員這個我們不是補助他研發並沒有補助他行銷這個事情我們會再跟你們要糾正啊你們要糾正啊"},{"start":369.075,"end":376.378,"text":"是 我知道你們是補助他幫助這些整個樹會 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對但是呢昨天在立法院通過了什麼是由藍白來贊成提出通過就是關於核三廠要繼續運轉的公投案所以呢這個問題我覺得很奇怪確實台電沒有提出申請但是還是立法院的政黨可以的這些立法委員可以來提出公投案那就是國人現在關心的嘛到底核三會不會繼續的運轉"},{"start":104.55,"end":124.624,"text":"這個不僅是關乎於台電有沒有提出申請它事實上是可能成為政黨之間的這個提案然後也會對整體社會造成有可能的影響也就是確實核三長在未來是有可能繼續運轉所以我們要關心的是什麼就是核廢料到底要如何處理"},{"start":126.325,"end":136.514,"text":"這個不是意識形態裡面之爭我們要務實來看待我請教一下現在我們的核一核二核三廠的燃料棒目前是怎麼處置的"},{"start":139.384,"end":165.055,"text":"縣型的情況報告委員目前燃料放就放在水池裡面但是都在放在燃料池內是不是那合一廠的部分因為他的乾除設施已經開始運轉所以已經有陸陸續續會把合一廠的廠內那個燃料池內的用過燃料搬移到乾除所陸續在移動"},{"start":166.135,"end":190.917,"text":"所以呢在沒有乾式儲存草的情況下我們現狀這個使用過燃料棒就必須要放在燃料池內是不是這樣子是好那台灣目前我們在規劃的是室外乾除廠有兩座室內乾除廠有三座是不是是所以合三廠我們有沒有規劃室外乾除廠"},{"start":192.295,"end":209.94,"text":"河山廠有規劃要興建一座室內乾式儲存對 河山廠我們規劃是室內乾式儲存 室外沒有嗎室外沒有好 那現在我們河一 河二廠的這個燃料池內的燃料棒這個是不是已經都幾乎要將近滿足了"},{"start":212.281,"end":225.172,"text":"對 幾乎要滿儲所以未來我們合一合二廠的室外乾儲廠你會先做好嘛 室外對 新建完成之後就會把燃料棒從燃料池內移出到乾式儲存廠內 是嗎是的好 那現在和珊廠的燃料池內儲存的燃料棒的情況如何"},{"start":231.758,"end":250.164,"text":"你們預計 因為現在是已經除液 已經停止 已經停機了所以目前是沒有持續增加燃料棒的問題但是按照你們原先預估的這個時程目前的燃料池 它的空間還能夠再儲存使用過燃料棒最多是幾年就如同委員所提供的 大概四年多"},{"start":255.467,"end":280.232,"text":"四年多在乾除廠衛星艦完成的情況下河山廠的燃料池裡面燃料棒最多最多就是假設不管你要延續還是要再運轉最多最多就是只有四年份的燃料棒我們的燃料池可以儲存嘛對不對那目前在野黨修過的版本核管法的再運轉最長是可以到幾年"},{"start":282.706,"end":293.335,"text":"最長是20年,按照新的法規在甘氏儲存廠未興建完成的情況下請問我們河山廠的燃料池有辦法來儲存20年的燃料棒嗎?所以沒辦法,所以必須要興建室內的必須要興建,沒有錯我們現在的甘氏儲存廠、河山廠我們預估最快最快什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":307.196,"end":328.146,"text":"跟委員說明台電公司河山廠的室內甘薯計畫在今年的2月他已經辦理採購文件的公開閱覽然後台電公司是希望在今年底能夠決標那預期是在121年6月完工啟用他願意規劃啟程"},{"start":329.597,"end":348.404,"text":"希望今年底可以絕標 代表什麼都還沒有招標出去啊河山廠的甘廚廠 連招標都還沒有完成我都不要問完工 連動工都沒有動工我們按照最理想的情況 假設今年招標完成 明年動工最快最快也要七年後 121年才有可能完工喔那如果按照現在藍白的提案"},{"start":353.766,"end":360.829,"text":"要來公投 今年 明年 河山廠就要來研議 叫無縫接軌來重啟讓你無縫接軌好了 最多再用幾年 再做四年還是得要停機啊 是不是這個樣子因為就是我們一再說的 核電的使用 你要考量是它的這個核廢料如何處置嘛 這個不是未來式 這是現在進行式"},{"start":377.546,"end":391.112,"text":"如果研議了 現在無縫接軌直接使用了結果 核三廠的燃料池的核廢料最多最多 你只能再用四年沒地方放 因為該是儲存廠七年以後 最快還是七年喔有可能是八年 九年以後 才會蓋好嘛那請問 四年到了"},{"start":395.851,"end":402.52,"text":"是不是就要停機如果不停機那這些使用過的燃料棒請問要放到哪裡燃料池滿了沒地方放了啊這個不是說核廢料放你家還是我家的問題我連乾式廚藥廠都沒有你沒有這個空間怎麼放"},{"start":411.011,"end":415.875,"text":"不是兒戲大家開玩笑討論吵架說不然放我家你家沒有燃料池怎麼放對不對這是很務實的問題所以因為接下來這個公投案也提出了未來倘若要舉行公投核安會作為核電廠安全的主管機關我們必須要負責任的向民眾說明倘若要因為他的這個公投提案內的文字大家要注意喔他是說要儘速運轉"},{"start":438.752,"end":460.867,"text":"他不是說等你評估好了乾式儲存廠蓋好了再來運轉不是他說要進促所以一定要告訴國人按照我們河山廠既有的這個池燃料池儲存的狀況最多最多也只能再用四年還是等要停機等到就算想要運轉也必須等到我們乾式儲存廠興建完成乾式儲存廠興建完成才有可能有繼續運轉的可能性"},{"start":469.112,"end":489.081,"text":"才有可能有他們提案要延長20年的可能性這一點這個資訊我認為一定要讓國人清楚的知道因為我個人認為第一個安全的考量我們之前提過基於安全的考量我也和三長我認為和三長的言議是要三思的第二個即便提出這樣子的方案"},{"start":490.663,"end":506.967,"text":"我們要為了再運轉四年還是得要停機為了再運轉四年就要來舉辦這個全國的公投國人知道他們投下去的是河山廠再運轉四年不是運轉二十年這個是事實社會大眾要去思考因為當然都是有利有弊到底是利大於弊還是弊大於利"},{"start":516.601,"end":535.42,"text":"它使用的這個效期是否符合這樣子的成本效應呢一定要清楚的讓國人知道這一題在討論的是河山廠再繼續運轉四年不是二十年因為繼續運轉二十年它的前提的條件是等到我們七年以後"},{"start":536.101,"end":546.733,"text":"或者八年以後 核三廠的乾式儲存廠興建完成才有它的可行性 可開始評估好不好 一定要把資訊清楚的向國人來說明好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 諸位請回 接下來我請你的中研院"},{"start":557.3,"end":583.394,"text":"時間看錯了抱歉副院長好這個很關切的是因為剛剛前面委員有提到說我們教文會一直很支持中研院所以沒有刪除預算確實委員會沒有刪除但很遺憾今年到院會的時候歐小林委員還是以國民黨黨團的名義提出了來中研院的預算刪減一共刪除了兩百萬是在法學的研究那他的這個刪除的理由是認為你們中研院的法學研究沒有顯著貢獻"},{"start":585.495,"end":601.398,"text":"沒有顯著貢獻當時現在民眾黨的立委黃國昌委員他過去因為也待過你們中委院法律所所以我特別關心他的態度他也是表態支持就是說他也認為你們中委院法律法學研究是沒有顯著貢獻的"},{"start":602.279,"end":618.66,"text":"在我個人看來是有貢獻究竟顯不顯著它的主觀跟客觀的評量為何這個我們不得而知所以我是希望中研院未來你們要再多加跟委員來說明因為我相信絕對是有貢獻那你們要再去把它凸顯說我們貢獻對社會所在在哪邊好不好"},{"start":621.343,"end":644.83,"text":"好 謝謝最後主席可以給我一分半的時間因為我很關心AI基本法我自己也會有提案中研院在去年的時候有成立一個AI的風險研究小組你們提出了五點建議我想非常的重要其中你們認為台灣是需要及早來整備而且要有立法的因應也就是我們現在在研議的AI基本法"},{"start":645.39,"end":648.715,"text":"那麼去年應該是今年這個中研院也提出了AI在人文社會科學領域的應用的計畫我想請問這個計畫目前已經有核定了嗎那我們預計怎麼來進行是純粹研究還是有應用"},{"start":661.848,"end":675.947,"text":"這都有已經合訂了今年1月開始已經有20個計畫開始執行那如果委員想要知道詳細的狀況我們可以再提供後面的資料每一個所以今年已經有合訂了為什麼特別關注"},{"start":676.287,"end":690.297,"text":"我看其中有一個計畫它是預計用AI來偵測和解析詐騙犯罪的金流那它是由我們中研院社會學研究所提出跟刑事警察局、警大還有清華大學合作所以在我看來像我們就會對這個計畫未來的應用會非常的期待因為刑事警察局也參與其中那詐騙是台灣現在很重大的一個社會要解決的問題"},{"start":701.425,"end":715.699,"text":"所以我會希望說我們中央醫院未來的就關於AI相關的研究如果可以跟我們這個應用可以來結合的話我想我們社會會非常期待我們也非常的支持好謝謝委員我們會努力好謝謝主席好謝謝吳佩奕委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":705,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（11時23分）謝謝主席，我請核安會。"],["主席：有請核安會陳主委。"],["吳委員沛憶：主委好。因為等會要跟你討論有關於核一、核二、核三廠核廢料處置的問題，因為我今天要問的比較不是大的政策，而是細節，所以如果有業務相關的同仁要回答就直接來回答就可以了。"],["陳主任委員明真：好。"],["吳委員沛憶：其實我要問的問題有很多，時間也有限，但是我剛剛聽到前面葉元之委員的質詢內容，我有一些疑問必須要請教，剛剛葉元之委員說，藍白提出來的核管法修法已經通過了，是要讓已經停止運轉的核電廠能夠再次運轉，那就包含了核一、核二、核三，但是葉元之委員說只要台電沒有提出要再運轉的申請，自然就沒有延役或繼續運轉的問題，我現在請問一下，有關於核三廠，目前台電有沒有向核安會提出要再運轉的申請？"],["陳主任委員明真：沒有。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有嘛！但是昨天在立法院通過了什麼？是由藍白來提出通過關於核三廠要繼續運轉的公投案，所以這個問題我覺得很奇怪，確實台電沒有提出申請，但是立法院這些政黨的立法委員可以來提出公投案，這就是國人現在關心的嘛！到底核三會不會繼續運轉？這個不僅是關乎於台電有沒有提出申請，事實上它可能成為政黨之間的提案，也有可能對整體社會造成影響，也就是核三廠在未來確實有可能繼續運轉，所以我們要關心的是什麼？就是核廢料到底要如何處理，這個不是意識形態理念之爭，我們要務實來看待，我請教一下，目前核一、核二、核三廠的燃料棒是怎麼處置？現行的情況。"],["陳組長文泉：報告委員，目前燃料棒……"],["吳委員沛憶：放在哪裡？"],["陳組長文泉：就在水池裡面，但是核一……"],["吳委員沛憶：放在燃料池內，是不是？"],["陳組長文泉：放在燃料池內，但是核一廠的部分因為它的乾貯設施已經開始運轉，所以會陸陸續續把燃料池內用過的燃料搬移到乾式貯存場。"],["吳委員沛憶：陸續在移動。"],["陳組長文泉：陸續在移。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以在沒有乾式貯存場的情況下，我們的現狀，使用過的燃料棒就必須要放在燃料池內，是不是這樣子？"],["陳組長文泉：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，臺灣目前在規劃的是，室外乾貯場有2座，室內乾貯場有3座，是不是？"],["陳組長文泉：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：核三廠有沒有規劃室外乾貯場？"],["陳組長文泉：核三廠有規劃要興建1座室內乾式貯存。"],["吳委員沛憶：核三廠的規劃是室內乾式貯存，室外沒有嘛？"],["陳組長文泉：對，室外沒有。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，現在核一、核二廠的燃料池內，燃料棒是不是幾乎要滿貯了？"],["陳組長文泉：幾乎。"],["吳委員沛憶：幾乎要滿貯，所以未來核一、核二廠的室外乾貯場你會先做好嘛？室外。"],["陳組長文泉：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：興建完成之後，就會把燃料棒從燃料池內移到乾式貯存場內，是嗎？"],["陳組長文泉：是的。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，現在核三廠的燃料池內，貯存燃料棒的情況如何？因為現在已經除役，已經停機了，所以目前沒有持續增加燃料棒的問題，但是按照你們原先預估的時程，目前燃料池的空間能夠貯存使用過的燃料棒最多是幾年？"],["高組長斌：就如同委員所提供的資料，大概四年多。"],["吳委員沛憶：四年多。"],["高組長斌：如果空間……"],["吳委員沛憶：在乾貯場未興建完成的情況下，核三廠燃料池裡面的燃料棒，不管你要延役還是要再運轉，我們的燃料池最多最多就是只有4年份的燃料棒可以貯存嘛！對不對？"],["高組長斌：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，目前在野黨修過的核管法版本，再運轉最長可以到幾年？"],["高組長斌：最長是20年。"],["吳委員沛憶：20年。"],["高組長斌：按照新的法規。"],["吳委員沛憶：在乾式貯存場未興建完成的情況下，請問核三廠的燃料池有辦法來貯存20年的燃料棒嗎？"],["高組長斌：沒辦法。"],["吳委員沛憶：那怎麼辦？"],["高組長斌：所以台電公司必須要興建室內的……"],["吳委員沛憶：必須要興建，沒有錯。現在核三廠的乾式貯存場，我們預估最快最快什麼時候可以完成？"],["陳組長文泉：跟委員說明，台電公司核三廠的室內乾貯計畫在今年2月已經辦理採購文件的公開閱覽，台電公司是希望在今年底能夠決標，預期在121年6月完工啟用，它的原規劃期程。"],["吳委員沛憶：希望今年底可以決標，代表什麼？都還沒有招標出去啊！"],["陳組長文泉：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：核三廠的乾貯場連招標都還沒有完成，我都不要問完工，連動工都沒有動工！我們按照最理想的情況，假設今年招標完成，明年動工，最快最快也要7年後，121年才有可能完工哦！如果按照現在藍白的提案要來公投，今年、明年核三廠就要延役，就要無縫接軌來重啟，讓你無縫接軌好了，最多再用幾年？再做4年還是得要停機啊！是不是這個樣子？因為就是我們一再說的，核電的使用，你要考量的是核廢料如何處置嘛！這個不是未來式，這是現在進行式，如果延役了，現在無縫接軌直接使用了，結果核三廠的燃料池最多最多你只能再用4年，核廢料沒地方放，因為乾式貯存場要7年以後，最快還要7年哦！有可能是8年、9年以後才會蓋好嘛！那請問4年到了是不是就要停機？如果不停機，這些使用過的燃料棒請問要放到哪裡？燃料池滿了，沒地方放了啊！這個不是核廢料放你家還是我家的問題，連乾式貯存場都沒有，你沒有這個空間怎麼放？不是兒戲，大家開玩笑，討論、吵架說不然放我家，你家沒有燃料池怎麼放？對不對？這是很務實的問題。","因為接下來這個公投案也提出了，未來倘若要舉行公投，核安會作為核電、核電廠安全的主管機關，我們必須要負責任地向民眾說明，因為這個公投提案內的文字大家要注意哦！它是說要儘速運轉，它不是說等你評估好了，乾式貯存場蓋好了再來運轉，不是，它說要儘速，所以一定要告訴國人，按照核三廠既有的燃料池貯存的狀況，最多最多也只能再用4年，還是得要停機，就算想要運轉也必須等到乾式貯存場興建完成，乾式貯存場興建完成才有繼續運轉的可能性，才有他們提案要延長20年的可能性，這個資訊我認為一定要讓國人清楚地知道。","我個人認為第一個，安全的考量，我們之前提過，基於安全的考量，我認為核三廠的延役是要三思的。第二個，即便提出這樣子的方案，我們為了再運轉4年還是得要停機，為了再運轉4年就要來舉辦全國公投，國人知道他們投下去的是核三廠再運轉4年，不是運轉20年，這個是事實，社會大眾要去思考，因為當然都是有利有弊，到底是利大於弊還是弊大於利？它使用的效期是否符合成本效益？一定要清楚地讓國人知道這一題在討論的是核三廠再繼續運轉4年，不是20年，因為繼續運轉20年的前提條件是等到7年以後或者8年以後，核三廠的乾式貯存場興建完成才有它的可行性可開始評估，好不好？一定要把資訊清楚地向國人來說明，好，謝謝，主委請回。","接下來我請中研院。"],["周副院長美吟：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：副院長好。我很關切的是，因為剛剛前面的委員有提到，我們教文會一直很支持中研院，所以沒有刪除預算，確實，委員會沒有刪除。但很遺憾，今年到院會的時候，翁曉玲委員還是以國民黨黨團的名義提出了中研院的預算刪減，在法學研究一共刪除了200萬，刪除的理由是他認為你們中研院的法學研究沒有顯著貢獻，而當時民眾黨的立委黃國昌委員，因為他過去也待過中研院法律所，所以我特別關心他的態度，他也是表態支持，就是說他也認為你們中研院法學研究是沒有顯著貢獻的。在我個人看來是有貢獻，究竟顯不顯著，他的主觀跟客觀的評量為何，這個我們不得而知，所以我希望中研院未來要再多加跟委員來說明，因為我相信絕對是有貢獻，你們要去凸顯它對社會的貢獻在哪邊，好不好？"],["周副院長美吟：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。最後，主席，可不可以給我一分半的時間？因為我很關心AI基本法，我自己也會有提案，那中研院在去年的時候有成立一個AI風險研究小組，你們提出了五點建議，我想非常地重要，其中你們認為臺灣需要及早來整備，而且要有立法的因應，也就是我們現在在研議的AI基本法。那麼今年中研院也提出了AI在人文社會科學領域的應用計畫，請問這個計畫目前已經有核定了嗎？預計怎麼樣來進行？是純粹研究還是有應用？"],["周副院長美吟：都有，已經核定了，今年1月開始，已經有20個計畫開始執行，如果委員想要知道詳細的狀況，我們可以再提供後面的資料，每一個計畫都是……"],["吳委員沛憶：好，所以今年已經有核定了。"],["周副院長美吟：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：我為什麼特別關心？我看其中有一個計畫是預計用AI來偵測和解析詐騙犯罪金流，它是由中研院社會學研究所提出，與刑事警察局、警大及清華大學合作，在我看來，我們對這個計畫未來的應用會非常地期待，因為刑事警察局也參與其中，而詐騙是臺灣現在很重大要解決的一個社會問題，所以我希望中研院未來關於AI相關的研究，如果可以和應用來結合的話，我想我們社會會非常期待，我們也非常地支持。"],["周副院長美吟：好，謝謝委員，我們會努力。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員，官員請回座。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員質詢，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-12","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","謝龍介","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","吳沛憶","鍾佳濱","萬美玲","范雲","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","林沛祥"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案6案；二、處理\n114年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案9案；三、處理114年\n度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院單位預算解凍案1案","agenda_id":"1145101_00009"}}},{"id":"161765","url"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公交人員有這個偏鄉離島的地域加擠那地域加擠大致上如果是在離島的話就是至少每個月有7700元以上那如果是在山地鄉的話則是每個月有3090元以上那其他台東花蓮的平地鄉我們有這個東台加擠每個月只有630元"},{"start":48.967,"end":69.487,"text":"台東花蓮如果單純就是用山地鄉平地鄉的模式去劃分有一些地方會造成不公平的現象因為有很多的平地鄉雖然是平地鄉但是他一樣沒有像其他地方便利的交通環境"},{"start":70.188,"end":96.062,"text":"但是加急卻一樣只有630元喔例如像這個豐濱那不知道部長有沒有 次長有沒有去過豐濱醫院豐濱 我有沒有去過就花蓮台東交接豐濱好像還沒去過還沒去喔 有機會是 有機會可以去看看齁那因為蛤 好啊你說我排還是你排"},{"start":98.087,"end":114.362,"text":"好我們還有很多地方要去那這個是這樣子就是說封兵呢他是應該是全花蓮縣唯一沒有火車經過的地方那公車站呢如果按照這個加急的急速去"},{"start":115.143,"end":135.264,"text":"就是判断可能有些地方它就是5到15公里就是那个公车站其实你要走好几公里那个也是很远啦所以我们看一下这个这张照片是封滨医院的正面那右边我这个萤幕都没有出来右边是卫生所对"},{"start":136.244,"end":158.65,"text":"對 右邊是封冰衛生所 左邊是封冰醫院那兩個單位呢 它是在同一個建築物裡面但是其實他們裡面是互通的那市長你知道嗎就是說在這個建築物裡面上班的公務人員包括這個就是醫護及行政這些等等他們上班是從左邊進去"},{"start":160.65,"end":179.655,"text":"到醫院那他們的加給就是630元但是從右邊衛生所的進來就不一樣囉每個月加給有3090元我想這樣子一比較你看你聽了你們都在笑了謝謝委員幫我們博布利醫院爭取權益真的"},{"start":180.575,"end":186.461,"text":"你講到同一個建築物裡面左邊跟右邊一個630一個3090元如果你是領630的你有沒有現在覺得相對剝奪感很強對不對"},{"start":194.969,"end":218.972,"text":"所以理論上你們都很客氣啊都抱歉我在這裡都替你們講了理論上封閉醫院的業務絕對不會比衛生所輕鬆因為在這個封閉的這個衛生所他是負責這個衛政那醫療部分全部都是在這個到這個封閉醫院嘛那甚至有時候我們台東就比較北邊的也要往封閉醫院送啊"},{"start":219.713,"end":240.382,"text":"所以這個醫院跟衛生所就在同一個屋簷下但是領的地域加擠卻是兩個世界所以算一算應該差了四倍那我剛剛講這個人事行政總署的地域加擠規定在平地鄉有很多不公平的現象那封閉鄉 平地鄉630"},{"start":242.523,"end":267.935,"text":"那花蓮縣政府呢他們在四年前就提出了地域加擠的合理化方案送行政院並且獲得支持那封兵箱內呢它是屬於這個地方政府管理的機關那地域加擠全部改為3090元那唯獨部立醫院的封兵醫院封兵分院現在每個月還是在領630元這個次長"},{"start":271.365,"end":299.188,"text":"你覺得這樣對你們院內這個同仁是公平的嗎謝謝委員我想我們自己部立醫院事實上真的承擔了台灣非常重要的公共公醫的職責那尤其是花東我們非常感謝願意在花東來提供服務的這些醫事人員我們也全力來協助那這個部分應該是人種的規定那我們在衛福部這邊當然另外我們在其他的能夠給我們的醫療人員比較好的待遇的部分衛福部這邊盡力來協助"},{"start":300.689,"end":309.054,"text":"那但是如果是人种的规定的话当然我们也希望说人种能够考量到我们这些专业医疗人员在这边的困境那让我们有比较好的夹击"},{"start":309.674,"end":333.664,"text":"我想是這樣我覺得這個部分你們應該要大聲疾呼大聲給他叫一下給他叫好幾下我們也幫忙叫也會幫忙來協調爭取所以我要請你們馬上來清查就是說在這個花東地區是不是還有類似的情形這個部分是不是可以請你們一周內清查完畢"},{"start":334.504,"end":351.727,"text":"謝謝委員我們請一幅會就是針對我們在不論是您剛所提到的原住民地區或者是這些特定偏遠地區那在相關地域加擠不合理或者是已經不符現實需求的這個部分我們再整理資料給委員謝謝委員幫忙我也想請教一下就是說"},{"start":353.188,"end":375.353,"text":"你們一句話就是說這是人總的規定我也知道這是人總的規定但是這中間你們有沒有溝通協調過搞不好他沒有看過那個統一棟建築左邊跟右邊如果我們的人總他是在他上班的那棟大樓一個右邊進去630另外一邊3090元我看他自己動會掉嗎"},{"start":378.82,"end":392.935,"text":"我們自己其實長期待在華東的這個副執行長也只能說過去大概他們就默默接受不過謝謝委員我想我們一起幹嘛默默接受我們一起來看看怎麼樣跟人種做這樣的爭取啦謝謝委員幫我們關心"},{"start":393.996,"end":408.529,"text":"好 那這個部分是不是就是說你們也就是如實反映給我們整理現況給我也對 你們也要爭取一下嘛是對啊 然後那個就是人家都可以提一個合理化方案嘛那你們也可以提一個不合理的檢討報告啊"},{"start":410.448,"end":427.116,"text":"我們想這個是地域佳績我們願意給你們做後盾謝謝委員還有之前我們公益也提到包含這個我們偏向交通費等等我們其實部立醫院這邊事實上長期都蠻辛苦的是好那一起努力謝謝委員好那接下來我要請教那個國教署那個"},{"start":429.554,"end":447.927,"text":"國教署的部分好上個月有很多的這個委員有一起召開記者會那揭發了我們台東某國小的這個輻射幼兒園的老師呢對學童施暴的這個案件那我相信你們應該都有掌握啦好那"},{"start":450.424,"end":477.432,"text":"就是說這個當然縣府對於相關人員的懲處都已經出爐但是呢有非常有還有一些家長就是說對於這件事情仍然存有很多的疑問那我想這些疑問主要來自於這個調查報告因為縣府所給的這個調查報就是說他們應該是說家長收到這個調查報告他所呈現的就像這個"},{"start":479.985,"end":494.933,"text":"烏雲籠罩一樣黑壓壓的一片這你看得出來是什麼嗎你不如給一張白紙算了或者你給他一張黑紙那再來因為長這個樣子所以家長越看越氣"},{"start":496.892,"end":525.675,"text":"所以我不知道你們有沒有看過他們的調查報告有看過嗎報告委員有看過他們的調查報告那再來齁剛剛這是第一版的圖啦那幾乎90%都是遮蔽的那我們再來看一下下一張第一張絕對看不出內容啦好然後再來就是說家長反應之後得到了這個第二版這個圖那你們看這個圖有沒有覺得長得很像什麼"},{"start":528.038,"end":550.556,"text":"某種密碼電腦裡面的密碼是不是亂碼對不對因為在第二版的內容他把行為人證人相關人員都同用同一種方式全部把他打黑遮蔽起來我想請問一下教育部這個你們看得出來誰是家暴老師誰是小朋友誰是家長誰是證人嗎你看得出來嗎"},{"start":551.787,"end":574.712,"text":"跟委員報告 因為現在我們就是有個調查辦法那其實就規定說這個有涉及到幼生個人身份的是用代號為之那因為現在看起來就是台東縣提供給家長的部分他是用整個折筆的部分來做處理那這部分我們會再跟那個台東縣政府來就是做這個調查報告的部分來請他們做理解所以這個明明在你們的調查"},{"start":576.332,"end":600.214,"text":"在這個你們叫保相關人員違法事件調查處理辦法裡面講得很清楚嘛就是要把相關要把相關人員的姓名去識別的話沒錯嘛但是你要用代號來取代嘛好所以這個你們到底有沒有去指導去溝通過跟這個地方縣府跟他們講到底這個要怎麼處理"},{"start":601.977,"end":629.358,"text":"你們到底有沒有去教他們有沒有去指導是 跟委員報告因為我們這個新修正的規定是今年4月22號實行那我們大概在前端也有透過跟地方政府的就是有修法的會議那還有我們今年的那個7月底就會辦理那個培訓那還有我們跟地方政府教育局處的這個科課長會議那都會持續的在來做這個新修正規定的宣導"},{"start":629.878,"end":657.803,"text":"因為既然你們四月份就已經四月份是新的規定嘛那你們遲至七月份才要去做這個講習嗎七月是針對審查小組那我們跟局處之間的規定大概因為我覺得通常你一個新的規定要上路前其實你們就應該要先做一些準備或者他在公告的同時就應該要同步很積極的做一些處理了"},{"start":659.423,"end":686.1,"text":"但是因為這三個月當中你看四月到短短雖然短短好像將近兩個月的時間但是它有可能發生很多事情啊所以請你們加緊腳步是跟委員報告我們就是會再製作那個調查報告的那個參考的格式那再提供給地方線那你們可不可以優先趕快先把這一件處理好那你們什麼時候可以先把這一件"},{"start":687.96,"end":705.365,"text":"因為我們最近就已經有發文給那個台東縣政府了那大概就是最快這個五月底前就會再請他們把這個依照新規定的這個現在也五月底了啦你要不要乾脆就講幾月幾號前那可以就容許我們五月三十一號五月三十一號現在還有幾天"},{"start":707.438,"end":724.193,"text":"今天你就重新這個報告其實你們都看過了那指導一下該怎麼怎麼用代號這應該很快吧而且他們也等很久了好那這個我們就一個禮拜內把它處理好可以嗎好好收到謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝市長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1280,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時24分）謝謝主席，麻煩請次長。"],["林次長靜儀：委員好！"],["陳委員瑩：次長好！公教人員有偏鄉離島的地域加給，如果是在離島的話，就是至少每個月有7,700元以上；如果是在山地鄉的話，則是每個月有3,090元以上。其他臺東、花蓮的平地鄉我們有東台加給，每個月只有630元。臺東、花蓮如果單純用山地鄉、平地鄉的模式去劃分，有一些地方會造成不公平的現象。因為有很多的平地鄉雖然是平地鄉，但是它一樣沒有像其他地方便利的交通環境，加給卻一樣只有630元，例如像豐濱。不知道次長有沒有去過豐濱醫院？"],["林次長靜儀：豐濱？"],["陳委員瑩：就是花蓮跟臺東交界。"],["林次長靜儀：豐濱好像還沒去過，我希望我也可以去。"],["陳委員瑩：還沒去？有機會可以去看看。"],["主席：可以排考察。"],["林次長靜儀：好啊！"],["陳委員瑩：你是說我排還是你排？"],["主席：我可以排。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我們還有很多地方要去。豐濱應該是全花蓮縣唯一沒有火車經過的地方。公車站的話，如果按照加給的級數去判斷，可能有些地方是5到15公里有公車站牌。其實你要走好幾公里，那個也是很遠啦！所以我們看一下，這張照片是豐濱醫院的正面，右邊……我這個螢幕都沒有出來。"],["林次長靜儀：右邊是衛生所。"],["陳委員瑩：對，右邊是豐濱衛生所，左邊是豐濱醫院。兩個單位是在同一個建築物裡面，其實它們裡面是互通的。次長，你知道嗎，在這個建築物裡面上班的公務人員，包括醫護及行政等等，如果他們上班是從左邊進去到醫院，他們的加給就是630元；但是從右邊衛生所進來的就不同了哦！每個月加給有3,090元。我想這樣子一比較，你看你們聽了都在笑了！"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員幫我們的部立醫院爭取權益。"],["陳委員瑩：真的！在同一個建築物裡面，左邊跟右邊，一個630，一個3,090元。如果你是領630的，你現在有沒有覺得相對剝奪感很強？你們都很客氣，都不好意思講，我在這裡就替你們講了。","理論上豐濱醫院的業務絕對不會比衛生所輕鬆，因為在豐濱的衛生所是負責衛政，醫療部分全部都是到豐濱醫院，甚至有時候我們臺東比較北邊的也要往豐濱醫院送。所以這個醫院跟衛生所就在同一個屋簷下，但是領的地域加給卻是兩個世界，算一算應該差了4倍哦！","人事行政總處的地域加給規定，在平地鄉有很多不公平的現象。豐濱鄉是平地鄉，630元。花蓮縣政府在4年前就提出了地域加給的合理化方案，送行政院，並且獲得支持。豐濱鄉內是屬於地方政府管理的機關，地域加給全部改為3,090元，唯獨部立醫院的豐濱分院現在每個月還是在領630元。次長，你覺得這樣對你們院內同仁是公平的嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。我想我們自己部立醫院事實上真的承擔了臺灣非常重要的公醫的職責，尤其是花東，我們非常感謝願意在花東提供服務的這些醫事人員，我們也全力來協助。這個部分應該是人總的規定。至於在衛福部的部分，當然我們在其他地方能夠給我們的醫療人員比較好的待遇的部分，衛福部這邊會盡力來協助。但是如果是人總的規定的話，當然我們希望人總能夠考量到我們這些專業醫療人員在這邊的困境，讓我們有比較好的加給。"],["陳委員瑩：我覺得這個部分你們應該要大聲疾呼，大聲給它叫一下啦！給它叫好幾下啦！我們也幫忙叫，也會幫忙來協調爭取啦！所以我要請你們馬上來清查在花東地區是不是還有類似的情形，這個部分是不是可以請你們一週內清查完畢、回報？"],["林次長靜儀：好，謝謝委員。我們請醫福會針對您剛剛所提到的原住民地區，或者是這些特定偏遠地區，在相關地域加給不合理或者是已經不符現實需求的部分，我們再整理資料給委員，也謝謝委員幫我們。"],["陳委員瑩：我也想請教一下，你們一句話就說這是人總的規定，我也知道這是人總的規定，但是這中間你們有沒有溝通協調過？搞不好它沒有看過那個同一棟建築左邊跟右邊……如果我們人總的辦公大樓，從右邊進去630，從另外一邊進去3,090元，他們自己受得了嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：我們自己長期待在花東的副執行長也只能說過去大概他們就默默接受，不過謝謝委員，我想我們一起……"],["陳委員瑩：幹嘛默默接受？"],["林次長靜儀：我們一起來看看怎麼樣跟人總做這樣的爭取，謝謝委員幫我們關心。"],["陳委員瑩：好。那這個部分是不是你們也如實反映給……"],["林次長靜儀：我們整理現況給委員。"],["陳委員瑩：你們也要爭取一下嘛！"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["陳委員瑩：人家都可以提一個合理化方案，那你們也可以提一個不合理的檢討報告啊！好嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：我們想這個是地域加給，還有之前……"],["陳委員瑩：我們願意給你們做後盾。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員，還有之前我們公醫也提到包含偏鄉的交通費等等，其實部立醫院長期都滿辛苦的。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那一起努力。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：接下來我要請教國教署的部分。上個月有很多委員一起召開記者會，揭發了臺東某國小附設幼兒園的老師對學童施暴的案件，我相信你們應該都有掌握。當然縣府對於相關人員的懲處都已經出爐，但是還有一些家長對於這件事情仍然存有很多的疑問，這些疑問主要來自於調查報告。因為家長收到調查報告，它所呈現的就像烏雲籠罩一樣，黑壓壓的一片。你看得出來這是什麼嗎？你不如給一張白紙算了，或者你給他一張黑紙！再來，因為報告長這個樣子，所以家長越看越氣啊！我不知道你們有沒有看過他們的調查報告，有看過嗎？"],["王專門委員怡婷：報告委員，有看過他們的調查報告。"],["陳委員瑩：好。剛才這是第一版的圖，幾乎90%都是遮蔽的。我們再來看一下下一張。因為第一張絕對看不出內容，所以家長反映之後，得到了第2版。你們看這個圖有沒有覺得長得很像什麼？某種密碼，電腦裡面的密碼、亂碼，對不對？因為第2版的內容把行為人、證人、相關人員都用同一種方式全部把它打黑遮蔽起來。我想請問一下教育部，這個你們看得出來誰是家暴老師、誰是小朋友、誰是家長、誰是證人嗎？你看得出來嗎？"],["王專門委員怡婷：跟委員報告，因為現在我們有個調查辦法，就規定有涉及到幼生個人身分要用代號為之。現在看起來臺東縣提供給家長的部分是用整個遮蔽的方式來做處理，我們會再跟臺東縣政府就這個調查報告的部分來請他們做釐清。"],["陳委員瑩：沒錯！這個明明在你們的教保相關人員違法事件調查處理辦法裡面講得很清楚嘛，要把相關人員的姓名去識別化沒錯，但是你要用代號來取代嘛！所以這個你們到底有沒有去指導、去溝通過？有沒有去跟地方縣府講到底這個要怎麼處理？你們到底有沒有去教他們？有沒有去指導？"],["王專門委員怡婷：跟委員報告，因為我們這個新修正的規定是今年4月22號施行，我們大概在前端也跟地方政府有召開修法的會議，我們今年的7月底就會辦理培訓，還有我們跟地方政府教育局處的科課長會議，都會持續地再來做新修正規定的宣導。"],["陳委員瑩：既然你們4月份就已經是新的規定，但你們遲至7月份才要去做講習嗎？"],["王專門委員怡婷：7月是針對審查小組，我們跟局處之間的會議大概……"],["陳委員瑩：通常一個新的規定要上路前，其實你們就應該要先做一些準備，或者它在公告的同時，就應該要同步很積極地做一些處理了。4月到現在雖然短短好像將近兩個月的時間，但是有可能發生很多事情啊！所以請你們加緊腳步。"],["王專門委員怡婷：跟委員報告，我們會再製作調查報告參考的格式，再提供給地方政府。"],["陳委員瑩：你們可不可以優先、趕快先把這件處理好？你們什麼時候可以先把這件的調查報告處理好？"],["王專門委員怡婷：我們最近就已經有發文給臺東縣政府，大概最快5月底前就會再請他們依照新規定的……"],["陳委員瑩：現在也5月底了啦！你要不要乾脆就講幾月幾號前？"],["王專門委員怡婷：可以就容許我們5月31號前？"],["陳委員瑩：你這樣還有幾天？你就重新這個報告……其實你們都看過了，指導一下該怎麼用代號，這應該很快吧？而且他們也等很久了。"],["王專門委員怡婷：好，那這個我們就加速……"],["陳委員瑩：你一個禮拜內把它處理好，可以嗎？"],["王專門委員怡婷：好，收到，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝次長。不是！不是！教育部的。累了！次長的體力比較好！","請楊曜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":138,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-12","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","徐巧芯","盧縣一","黃國昌","劉建國","涂權吉","林淑芬","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","黃秀芳","洪孟楷","張啓楷","范雲","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","楊曜","賴惠員","葉元之","王育敏","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃捷"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145201_00002"}}},{"id":"161764","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161764","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7dbaf2107d478623c31cdb65d50a7385bb67364d18bd4e850e8092caf3064e3a5735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"13:15:17 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本席要請次長"},{"start":11.63,"end":36.613,"text":"市長好我想一早上討論大家都有一個共識病患的權益不容許有任何的大則所以在發生這樣子的性騷跟性侵害我們看到台大醫院的婦產科的這一位醫師發生了性侵的這個事件竟然還長達三年半"},{"start":37.193,"end":62.447,"text":"他沒有被停職或者是沒有被公佈姓名那外界都高度的質疑醫師的懲戒跟通報機制是私領的所以因此會影響病人的安全那麼所以在一整個早上本席聽起來大家都有這個共識病人的權利 病人的安全是需要受到保障那這需要怎麼保障呢目前的這個樣態因為您說台大醫品"},{"start":66.269,"end":89.397,"text":"那個已經評定了過程性騷之後呢應該要主動的通報台北市衛生局更說衛生局不會用通靈的方式知道台大發生什麼事那但是台大說台大院長說了性騷的主管機關是社會局所以他們當時依法去通知社會局"},{"start":90.057,"end":105.966,"text":"那剛剛你也特別說了你們是到判決決定就最近你們才會知道才開始要啟動所以這樣整個過程讓人高度的一個質疑也就是我們在整個懲戒跟通報的機制它是失靈的"},{"start":107.086,"end":121.987,"text":"換句話說在調查懲戒停止的時機它的法規以及在整個程序明明有不足的這個部分所以我們看到這個事件可以看到說目前的制度它是失靈的"},{"start":122.788,"end":139.92,"text":"他的失靈導致醫界行政單位從醫院從地方成中央都好像在踢皮球那麼有一個怠惰不負責的這個樣態產生所以本席不希望三方都在踢皮球本席舉例"},{"start":142.021,"end":159.003,"text":"老師教育部他擬定了校園性別事件通報以及調查的處理程序如果校園發生了這樣的事件那他必須要在24小時之內他要完成校安的通報他必須要在24小時"},{"start":160.405,"end":179.414,"text":"如果行為人是教師 他更要通知教品會先暫停停聘 接受調查所以剛剛我也聽到市長你所說的這個是非常需要重視的你認為目前的問題在哪裡我們現行的醫師懲戒委員會"},{"start":182.476,"end":207.773,"text":"啟動時機沒有明確的一個法律規範那是不是我們應該要來修法要來明定讓整個的事件能夠更有效能來 請說明好 謝謝委員我想第一個事情當然我們希望是說現有的醫師法跟懲戒辦法它不論是知悉這件事情之後這個學會 公會或者是這個機構它事實上可以提醒它的主管機關就地方的衛生局來"},{"start":208.673,"end":227.283,"text":"進行相關的懲戒的這個調查這是第一個事情第二個部分其實在我們修過的性騷擾防治法性騷擾防治法第13條之一在這個個案性騷擾被申訴人這個部分情節重大的話其實雇主就可以暫停或者是調整這個被申訴人的職務那請問那目前沒有這麼做"},{"start":228.524,"end":235.367,"text":"那怎麼辦呢請問你們要不要去整合把這個規範更明確在校園裡頭必須24小時就立即啟動然後通知如果行為人是老師的話就是現有的這個性平三法當然它內部在機構內部機關內部它有它的這個性平的調查機制這個部分我們會希望"},{"start":252.975,"end":278.544,"text":"再次的宣導希望大家能夠遵守這個部分第二個部分就是我們剛剛今天在委員會上已經強調就是說醫師我們在衛福部這邊會再發函給各縣市的醫師公會以及就是說我們的機構這邊再一次的強調依照目前不論是性平三法或者是在醫師法跟醫師懲戒辦法內部希望大家主動的來提起這樣子對於這樣不應該發生在醫界的言行來夠積極的來做處理"},{"start":279.984,"end":297.58,"text":"所以應該要更明定醫生醫師的醫院的這個通知不管是衛生局要啟動的這個懲戒程序要讓更 執事者更加的清楚是 我們希望能夠在現有的法律的制度之下能夠讓現有權責這邊能夠更清楚然後能夠"},{"start":301.623,"end":321.102,"text":"積極的來做處理這這麼大的一個爭議大家的不安心本席具體建議應該你要去盤點所有的法律所有的辦法要怎麼樣去規範出來讓執行者讓病患他都能夠非常的安心這個是應該要有一個均衡的權益"},{"start":322.703,"end":349.066,"text":"對不對也跟我們報告就是說因為現在大家關注的可能因為醫師的部分比較受到關注事實上醫事人員醫事人員在相關類似的事件除了現有性品三法之外他能不能繼續職業或他在他的原來職業機構內部怎麼樣去做處理這個部分我們醫事師接下來會開一個相關的會議去做開一個相關會議把醫事人員對醫事人員都打盤進去因為現在我們看到在整個社會的氛圍他是"},{"start":350.1,"end":366.009,"text":"他是害怕的我們不應該有這樣的一個樣態出來所以具體去研擬你們的進行方案那接下來本期要討論要請教的就是狼獅查詢平台邱部長在接受訪問的時候他也說要建立那現在有沒有這個進度"},{"start":367.269,"end":386.356,"text":"這個部分因為部長現在在WHO不過我們跟醫事室這邊我們會去優化現有的醫事人員的資訊整合的這個部分好那依照目前法律可以揭露的部分我們就先行那如果還需要再做法律調整的部分我們會後面再補上後面再補上所以你們可以說的我們就先做"},{"start":387.136,"end":414.664,"text":"對 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陳部長"},{"start":15.85,"end":40.463,"text":"部長好那當然本席也是要肯定交通部對於這個三峽這個事件來講那針對長者的就是駕駛制度也有做第一時間的回應那當然說這個三峽這個老翁的就是撞到學生的這悲劇真的是讓社會各界都感到非常的悲痛"},{"start":41.283,"end":65.609,"text":"非常的難過那本席想要接的因為剛才許多的委員他們其實都有詢問到就是高齡駕駛制度那現在從75歲要降到這個70歲那其實辦公室大家也討論了很多那這個到底換照70歲跟75歲目前要增加的這個駕駛人要換照的這個駕駛人數是多少"},{"start":66.526,"end":86.014,"text":"報告委員我們目前大概如果以今年來算的話大概會有182萬人從70歲往上算會有182萬人那10年之後會有到272萬人那75歲以上以現行來講換照的這個比例有來去進行這換照的人數大概有多少換照的比例有90%"},{"start":89.695,"end":116.924,"text":"目前從106年執行到現在那我們就是符合這個需要換照有86萬多那現在已經辦理完畢的是80萬5000那針對這個70歲以上要來做換照將來的一個通知的方式預計要怎麼樣通知才能夠齊全因為我坦白說這個長者那他們是不是能夠確實的被通知到他們要換照"},{"start":117.944,"end":143.943,"text":"那當然說以社會事件來讓大家矚目那當然說這是大家現在也都知道就是長者駕駛的一個安全性那如果說許多的長者甚至他的家人是不是能夠確實知道他們要換照以及包括在換照的包括是健檢體檢包括或是包括他們的感知測試等等的這個部分是不是他們第一都是不是有充分的訊息能夠讓他們理解到他們需要換照"},{"start":144.963,"end":172.504,"text":"通知的部分因為我們過去已經執行了很多年106年一直到現在所以通知的部分沒有問題我們只是把目前增加的年齡層的部分通知一樣是照過去的方式來通知這個沒有問題那未來整個檢測的過程當中我們也會有一個詳細的計畫做出來之後讓所有的需要換照的這個年長者他們都能夠很清楚的知道那應該要怎麼做怎麼樣便利的去做換照的動作這個我們也會一併來思考"},{"start":173.305,"end":199.776,"text":"因為本席還是在這裡還是要強調一下就是我相信其實許多的年長者就是高齡者他們的家人就是甚至可能不一定清楚他們要去做一個換照動作那當然說我相信監理站這邊其實都有盡可能來進行通知那包括許多如果說家人他們都不知道的情況之下那是不是這些長者都能夠確實知道要被通知到要換照而且這個制度如果將來要改到70歲預計多久之內會實施"},{"start":202.305,"end":230.656,"text":"報告員我們希望在115年也就是明年可以來實施這樣的新的政策對那這個能夠落實通知那同樣的是盡量也配合警政單位能夠在社區或者包括在相關的老人會都能夠來去做一個通知到那編列的這個宣傳的話目前是會有編任相關的宣傳或者是就是怎麼樣的方式能夠來做通知明年會有相關的預算那另外我們也會跟地方政府來配合包含鄉鎮公所也好或者是地方的縣市政府"},{"start":231.036,"end":250.468,"text":"大家會一起來合作來做這個同事的動作那另外的話就剛才其實有些委員有提到這些年長者他們不僅是換照的一個鼓勵制度啊那我覺得其實兩百塊或者是小禮物的話可能還不足以能夠成為他們來換照的誘因啊那有沒有再有其他的方式"},{"start":251.028,"end":274.757,"text":"我們來想想看獎勵跟誘因的方式我們再來思考看有沒有更有更有吸引力的方法好那再來的話就是他們現在來講如果長者的這個車輛啊他們不管是有沒有在比較新的車輛有輔助駕駛的系統或者是包括他們年長的這種類似房子爆充的這些系統或設置的補助那目前以你規劃的方式如何"},{"start":275.393,"end":294.843,"text":"報告委員,這個科技的防制的部分其實在現在新車裡面都有,那對於舊車的部分,因為今天有好幾位委員都提到這個問題,我們來研議看看,因為這個牽涉到第一預算規模,第二執行層面,在台灣的這個量能有沒有辦法去真正落實到執行,這個我們還要再研究一段時間。"},{"start":295.563,"end":324.27,"text":"因為我是覺得在剛才一些委員的質詢的時候確實是還沒有得到會不會有這樣子一個補助方案那當然說新車來講的話都一定會有相關的補助系統那我是覺得說那舊車相對量比例會是比較少所以我會建議說可以的話還是正向是不是來去做一個補助系統的一個補貼措施那我覺得說這樣子對於長者來講不僅鼓勵他們換照也鼓勵他們在道路行程上是安全駕駛這個部分我們來研議"},{"start":324.951,"end":325.212,"text":"OK 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2053,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（13時17分）謝謝召委。有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["游委員顥：部長好。本席也是要肯定交通部在三峽這個事件裡，針對長者的駕駛制度於第一時間回應。三峽老翁撞到學生的悲劇，真的讓社會各界感到非常悲痛、非常難過。剛才許多委員都有質詢到高齡駕駛制度，現在要從75歲降到70歲，辦公室大家也討論了很多，到底70歲跟75歲目前增加要換照的駕駛人數是多少？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，如果以今年來算的話，大概會有182萬人，從70歲往上算會有182萬人，10年之後會到272萬人。"],["游委員顥：75歲以上，以現行來講，有進行換照的人數和比例大概多少？"],["陳部長世凱：換照的比例有百分之九十……"],["陳局長文瑞：從106年執行到現在，符合需要換照的有八十六萬多人，現在已經辦理完畢的是80萬5,000人。"],["游委員顥：針對70歲以上要換照，將來的通知方式預計要怎麼樣通知才能夠齊全？坦白說，長者是不是能夠確實被通知到要換照？"],["陳部長世凱：當然。"],["游委員顥：因為社會事件，現在大家都知道長者駕駛的安全性。但許多長者和他的家人是不是能夠確實知道他們要換照，以及包括健檢、體檢報告，或是包括他們的感知測試等等這個部分？是不是都有充分的訊息能夠讓他們理解他們需要換照？"],["陳部長世凱：有關通知的部分，因為我們過去已經執行了很多年，從106年一直到現在，所以通知的部分沒有問題，我們只是把目前增加的年齡層，一樣照過去的方式通知，這個沒有問題。未來整個檢測的過程當中，我們也會有一個詳細的計畫做出來之後，讓所有需要換照的年長者都能夠很清楚知道，至於應該要怎麼做、怎樣便利的去做換照的動作，這個我們也會一併思考。"],["游委員顥：本席在這裡還是要強調一下，我相信其實許多的年長者、高齡者的家人可能不清楚他們要換照，當然，我相信監理站都有儘可能進行通知，但在家人都不知道的情況之下，這些長者是否都能夠確實被通知要換照？這個制度將來如果要改到70歲，預計多久之內會實施？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們希望在115年，也就是明年可以實施這個新的政策。"],["游委員顥：希望能夠落實通知。現在也配合警政單位通知社區或老人會目前是以怎樣的方式通知跟宣傳？"],["陳部長世凱：會有相關的預算，另外我們也會跟地方政府配合，包含鄉鎮公所也好，或地方的縣市政府，大家會一起合作通知。"],["游委員顥：剛才有些委員有提到這些年長者不僅是換照的鼓勵制度，我覺得其實200元或小禮物可能還不足以成為他們來換照的誘因。有沒有其他的方式？"],["陳部長世凱：我們來想想看獎勵和誘因的方式，我們再來思考看有沒有更有吸引力的方法。"],["游委員顥：有關長者駕駛車輛，現在比較新的車輛有輔助駕駛系統，或設置防止暴衝輔助系統的補助，目前研擬規劃的方式如何？"],["陳部長世凱：科技防制的部分，現在新車都有；對於舊車的部分，今天好幾位委員都有提到這個問題，我們來研議看看，因為這個牽涉到：第一，預算規模；第二，執行層面，在臺灣的量能有沒有辦法去真正落實執行？這個我們還要再研究一段時間。"],["游委員顥：從一些委員的質詢來看，確實還不知會不會有這樣子的補助方案。當然，新車來講的話，都一定會有相關的輔助系統，我覺得舊車相對來講比率會比較少。所以我建議如果可以的話，還是正向做輔助系統的補貼措施，這樣對長者來講不僅鼓勵他們換照，也鼓勵他們在道路行駛上可以安全駕駛。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們來研議。"],["游委員顥：謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請林國成委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-12","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","黃健豪","何欣純","蔡其昌","徐富癸","邱若華","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝我們主席小金剛這個我是邀請這個交通部陳部長陳部長部長這個交通部業務非常多啊那你在那麼多的業務在那麼短時間之內充分掌握而確實執行到位所以內閣裡面滿一度啊"},{"start":25.936,"end":53.395,"text":"好感度最高的就是您了我對你們的工作表示肯定也對交通部的團隊大家齊心協力為了國家的交通建設努力我這邊表示最大的這個感謝謝謝委員他說感謝之外還要拜託有幾項建設這個我具體提出來就是柳蛙山窟也許未來也可能是這個許志傑的選區也不一定"},{"start":57.388,"end":63.916,"text":"來 菜寮路啊 菜寮路在貢山那個是一個非常重要的 雖然是在山區但是我看了好多次就是缺經費"},{"start":65.755,"end":94.895,"text":"岡山區高五十九菜頭路拓寬工程那如果不拓寬它那個就是用路的安全就會受到很嚴重的威脅第二會有車禍所以它是一般型的計畫那當然市政府當然財源有限我是希望說在有限的市府經費之下是不是公路局能夠納入這個拓寬工程讓經費能夠到位讓這個長期來困擾這個菜頭路沒有辦法拓寬這些市民朋友讓他們更安心"},{"start":95.775,"end":116.887,"text":"所以這點可以請補助來幫忙報告委員,那個高雄市政府如果提出申請的這個補助,補助的申請的話我們就會請公路局來做這個研議,幫他協助生活圈的補助的部分已經有提出了,排序的部分我也請他們盡量拉到前面來那如果到部裡面的時候,我也懇請部長能夠支持好,我們盡力來協助"},{"start":118.368,"end":137.574,"text":"另外台61線從北到巴黎一直到目前的征文溪口這個是我大概如果沒記錯的話大概是10年前的提案我臨時提案提出這個台61線不能只做征文溪口必須要跨國征文溪口往南做到高雄"},{"start":138.675,"end":152.911,"text":"經過協定 經過永安 經過彌陀寺 一直到紫關 一直接到南紫這個台六十一線才能從北貫穿到南部所以這部分因為提案也 交通部也 立任部長也都支持了"},{"start":153.571,"end":179.67,"text":"所以我這部分是因為在台南那一段有路線的問題因為有一些失地跟一些國家公園所以它的難度會比較高一點還要提供很多環評但是在我這一段高雄端這部分反而比較容易去克服所以高雄端的部分是不是可以優先來施作優先施作當然需要經費經費我希望說部裡面能夠大力支持但是經費不少但是如果"},{"start":180.672,"end":209.849,"text":"有 先期的經費下去我想我跟許智傑一起努力我們也許再邀請部長去看一下實際上哪些的高雄端是可以優先施作的所以這部分我已經質詢會堪說明會辦了17次報告委員 等這個預算行政院核定之後我們會優先施作來優先施作高雄這一段高雄這一段如果可以優先施作我相信對於地方的交通會有很大的幫助"},{"start":210.549,"end":233.217,"text":"所以您是同意以支持這部分優先施作所以我們預算如果合定之後我們會優先施作高雄這一點預算我們一起來努力那如果一旦合定我希望說部長能夠見急履急然後把高雄段這部分先處理那另外軌道建設很重要軌道建設一般都是需要中央補助的財源那高雄的捷運路網捷運路網裡面現在紅線黃線"},{"start":237.739,"end":262.235,"text":"這個另外就是橘縣那現在就是另外一個紫縣我想這個徐師傑委員長期在交通委員會他很關心紫縣的部分是橫的橫的從西邊的我希望可以延伸到紫灣區鵝阿寮有一個紫灣鵝阿寮直線然後貫穿所有的大學學園區所以這部分我目前因為前瞻基礎建設軌道建設這個還很多件"},{"start":265.897,"end":285.324,"text":"這些都需要中央來指引這個部分是不是可行性研究已經報到交通部審議了目前在做修正那這樣往來聞來聞去也一年了是不是在目前針對紫縣的審議的效率能夠提升速度快一點我希望說"},{"start":288.033,"end":307.98,"text":"盡快把它完成我們會盡量跟高雄市政府兩邊來配合我們加速讓這個程序可以走快一點修正的速度也要加快一點公文已經一年了所以這個我特別提出來再請部長再去跟相關同仁講這個效率能夠再提升我們來努力好 謝謝部長 謝謝副同仁 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其實聯合國已經有納入了啦然後我們也已經有在這個小車的這個配備的要求裡面有做預告現在已經在預告當中了"},{"start":234.83,"end":255.039,"text":"所以我希望不要因為高齡駕駛發生問題的時候我們才來做因為每一條人命都是非常珍貴那是人家辛辛苦苦養出來的孩子那是期盼他回家的媽媽不能回了家所以我希望交通部不是用這樣子來針對這個還在拖延"},{"start":257.82,"end":273.405,"text":"那再來我們要看到交通安全事實上一直是我很關心的所以每一次部長來我一定都會來質詢可是我還是希望能夠持續透過各種方式監督所以我這邊再一次提醒日韓都有階段性換照不要說我們現在下降年齡"},{"start":274.705,"end":292.013,"text":"下降年齡如果他能力上有困難的話你基本上還是沒有解決問題啦所以我覺得那個階段性的換照制度是不是可以去做還有一個要規劃有階段性的追蹤這個人不會是今年檢查OK可是明年呢"},{"start":292.553,"end":307.029,"text":"也要不要有階段性的去追蹤所以我也同意年齡不是一個單一的駕駛安全的單一決定因素所以我們需要更細緻的而且希望能夠對於有鑑別度的身心能力檢核"},{"start":308.274,"end":331.596,"text":"否則的話一跨過75歲那現在有沒有比較年輕失智的有啊那跨75歲可是有沒有他能力上有沒有可以不同的分多面向的篩檢跟評估機制那所以我們希望江部當然我也非常肯認你們在5月20號開記者會去做這樣的一個說明可以去提出來"},{"start":332.236,"end":346.072,"text":"我也希望部長一直以來都也很用心在這一塊可是速度可不可以加快一點所以最後我就建議是不是來最後我建議大概三點主張也就是"},{"start":347.193,"end":368.46,"text":"能不能會同社政主管機關共同研商我們精進高齡駕駛能力評估機制一定要做他的能力評估這個國外也有一套做法我建議交通部應該要參採第二個是不是針對高風險違規駕駛人的管理應該研商結合醫療跟保險機制的可行性還有我覺得偏鄉"},{"start":369.48,"end":380.874,"text":"因為如果偏鄉沒有機車沒有汽車的話老人家大概我們也不能影響到他的移動權所以這邊都要去考慮所以希望部長不要再遲到了好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2001,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（13時5分）麻煩陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長，午安。我今天只想談一件事情，就是高齡者的交通權益。我想這幾天大家心裡都非常難過，可是我還是必須提醒，高齡駕駛不只是高齡者移動權的表現方式，它同時也是如何精進駕駛能力評估的問題，所以是相對重要的。臺灣快速邁向超高齡，因為今年進入到超高齡社會，未來這件事情應該刻不容緩，我相信部長不會反對我這樣說吧！"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯。"],["林委員月琴：可是，部長，針對高齡者駕駛駕照管理制度的檢討，運研所在30年前就在研究了！2022年甚至還提出要通盤檢討，其中也都有回顧各國高齡者的換照制度，30年了！我上個會期也在這邊質詢，不是我未卜先知，事實上傷亡狀況本來很嚴重。當時我提醒交通部，高齡駕駛的法規有漏洞；我也整理了日本、南韓作法，建議交通部應該儘速研議要做到三件事情，即填補我們高齡駕駛換照制度的漏洞、提供安全裝置的補助，還有建立繳回駕照的獎助機制，以及持續加強偏鄉的公共運輸。","上週我跟許智傑召委，也找了老人福利推動聯盟跟交通的學者共同召開記者會，請交通部務必要細緻化處理高齡駕駛人的管理，研擬建構階段性換照政策。同場我們也找了衛福部一起針對那個能力的評估這些應該要有，甚至具體建議是不是有高齡安全駕駛補助。我覺得很可惜的是，交通部不管是書面回復、說明、報告，或者是記者會的回復都是不斷地說，我們會再討論、會再研議，研議再研議，就是不願意把過去做的研究跟各界的建議拿出來認真考慮政策來推動。我為什麼這樣提？因為我去年10月23號就針對這個給了一些意見，甚至我提出日本、南韓補助高齡者裝設車輛安全裝置防止暴衝。部長，你們書面報告怎麼回答我的，你知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我現在正在看。"],["林委員月琴：這邊寫的是什麼？這邊寫目前沒有車輛導入，也不是聯合國標準配備，所以要等聯合國納入標準配備以後再來討論要不要導入實施，當時是這樣回答我。可是我剛剛聽部長備詢的時候，有某個委員問，你說三個月內就會研議提出作法。我去年10月23日問，然後你們11月8日書面回復我是要等聯合國……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，三個月是評估，不是一定會做，我們也要看我們的預算規模做不做得到。"],["林委員月琴：對，可是至少也比給我的回復要進一步，那時候你還說要等聯合國納入標準配備之後才討論。現在聯合國還是沒有納入標準，你們這時候就說要討論？部長剛剛回答那個委員問的是說那時候才來討論。好，不管怎麼樣……"],["陳部長世凱：其實聯合國已經有納入了，然後我們也已經在小車配備的要求裡面預告，現在已經在預告當中了。"],["林委員月琴：我希望不要因為高齡駕駛發生問題才做。"],["陳部長世凱：不會，要整套的思考。"],["林委員月琴：因為每一條人命都是非常珍貴的，那是人家辛辛苦苦養出來的孩子，媽媽期盼他回家卻不能回家了，所以我希望交通部不是這樣子拖延。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["林委員月琴：再來，交通安全一直是我很關心的，所以每一次部長來，我一定都會來質詢，我還是希望能夠持續透過各種方式監督，所以我這邊再一次提醒，日韓都有階段性換照，不要說我們現在打算下降年齡！就算下降年齡，但如果他能力上有困難的話，基本上還是沒有解決問題。所以那個階段性的換照制度是不是可以去做？還有，要規劃階段性的追蹤，這個人今年檢查OK，可是明年呢？要不要階段性的去追蹤？我也同意年齡不是駕駛安全的單一決定因素，我們需要更細緻的，而且希望能夠做有鑑別度的身心能力檢核。否則的話，一跨過75歲……但現在有沒有比較年輕就失智的？有啊！在跨75歲後，有沒有對其能力做多面向篩檢跟評估的機制？","當然我非常肯認交通部在5月20號開記者會做這樣的說明，可以提出來，部長一直以來都很用心在這一塊，可是速度可不可以加快一點？"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們再加快。"],["林委員月琴：最後我建議三點主張，能不能會同社政主管機關共同研商精進高齡駕駛能力評估機制？一定要做他的能力評估，這個國外也有一套作法，我建議交通部應該要參採。第二個，針對高風險違規駕駛人的管理，應該研商結合醫療跟保險機制的可行性。還有就是偏鄉的部分，如果偏鄉沒有機車、沒有汽車的話，我們也不能影響到老人家的移動權，所以這邊都要去考慮，希望部長不要再遲到了！謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員。","那天我正好跟林委員一起開記者會，希望部長這裡再幫忙多加強，謝謝。","請邱志偉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-12","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","黃健豪","何欣純","蔡其昌","徐富癸","邱若華","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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還債關你什麼事啊是國家的事 你不要把你交通部看得那麼大 你懂了沒有你還管到全國的財政啊 全國財政是行政院主技術管的 不關你的事你是就你既有的行政院主技術給你的額度裡面"},{"start":235.168,"end":261.683,"text":"你去編列預算嘛 是不是這樣是 是 沒錯我跟你講的話就不對啦沒有啊 問題是當整個行政院錢沒有的時候他會對我們交通部的所有的相關的支出一定也會緊縮那自然我們因為要滿足各地方的需要那如果稅源沒有投收的話怎麼辦蛤 你用電也省了嗎是 我們他的問題是在桶山嘛問題出在桶山嘛 是不是這樣"},{"start":263.022,"end":281.169,"text":"統三你講統三嘛,跟財化法什麼關係啊?沒有,因為那個是委員提案要我們對財化法對我們講做解釋你講話已經超過你的職權了,你瞭解沒有?那是行政院主計處財政部可以講這個話,你怎麼可以講這個話勒?你是交通部的會計處處長"},{"start":283.581,"end":311.792,"text":"你這個講話已經,你是行政院主席長嗎?你不是嘛?是,不代表,可是委員要求我們要回答才有辦法對我們的影響沒有影響啦,稅入一定有多少錢在那裡嘛,你才能編稅出的錢嘛那你超出多少,你用猜的喔?你又不是玄天上帝,也不是技工火火,你會知道你是上帝啊?你會知道超出多少錢嗎?"},{"start":313.792,"end":341.085,"text":"再給你三兆你也不夠啦是不是好處長你請回啦早上那個王美月委員這兩天出了重大車禍部長你這個東西應該就制度上面去檢討嘛你不要一個人75歲的一個老人出了車禍你要把他改到什麼考照改到70歲"},{"start":344.079,"end":359.486,"text":"我也是受害者,那我75歲,那我今天要去考試?沒有道理啊換照機制一直都在好沒關係,如果60歲有一個人發生了重大車禍撞死了十幾個,那你要降低到60歲嗎?"},{"start":363.042,"end":382.796,"text":"我們不是針對單一個案來做決定的你就是為了這個事情啊你去年有提出來嗎 前年有提出來嗎我們其實這已經研議一段時間了沒有道理了啦所以我們會先提出來的原因是因為現在社會大家很關注我們就把我們目前研議的結論先跟社會來做報告跟你講啦 你在應付社會啦 我沒有意見啦"},{"start":383.977,"end":398.074,"text":"問題是你不能把制度這樣朝夕另改你要朝著制度面去走我們過去這個制度已經做十年了這個人神經有沒有問題體力有沒有問題是不是,四肢有沒有問題你就考慮這個嘛"},{"start":399.395,"end":426.234,"text":"你把他趕到75歲我們現在都有納入了那我也是受害者你知道嗎我不是受害者嗎我不會讓您受害我們這個方案你不讓我受害是要協助年長者你以為那個S型可以隨便進去可以隨便出來的有那麼厲害喔那個不容易我們沒有說要考S型沒有考S型那考什麼考長方形還是正方形三個月之後會提出整體的方案再跟委員報告"},{"start":428.598,"end":447.687,"text":"你可以比試,出車禍的原因很多,喝酒精神不濟我們不是為了擔任個案,我們是整體的駕照管理是包含新考照的,包含已經在路上開,但是有一些違規的樣態要回訊的機制也都有然後換照是另外一個,我們總共有三個方向"},{"start":449.088,"end":471.542,"text":"早上在講,剛才在講,我坐在台上,我是受害者我跟你講,一定有很多鄉親出來講話委員如果已經75歲,本來就是到了現行機制該換照的年齡了不是換人喔換駕駛喔你是叫我不要開車那個意思嗎不會,現在很多人換照都很順利"},{"start":473.03,"end":501.889,"text":"我現在八十幾歲啊,人家生性善良啊你要做壞事要去撞人,那沒辦法,那神經有問題你不能把神經病精神病人也統統把他算在裡面啦,是不是這沒有道理嘛我真的不是看個案不過你修這個法,你們稍微小心一點好不好你不要今天出了車禍,明天出了什麼風災什麼人禍就來啦,叫他修叫他修包委員這不是急救張的啦,我們不會做急救張的事情這是制度的整體的改善這次到馬祖去考察"},{"start":503.428,"end":517.12,"text":"這個大家非常辛苦啦,速發部也去了,部長也去了我也感受到你們的誠意好不好我希望大家同心協力因為馬祖是個藍白合作的地方我剛才到內政委會質詢海基會"},{"start":523.459,"end":551.102,"text":"他幾年專門委員每天在罵連江縣政府罵陳雪生委員你們把北竿機場的配套你給我拿出來怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣一直罵我們現在執政的是民進黨執政耶交通部你是執政黨的他應該去喊什麼連江縣地方黨部也好海基會的人怎麼可以去搞這個事吃飽飯閒著沒事做我才問他他吃什麼飯做什麼事連江縣黨部也在罵我們地方黨部"},{"start":552.611,"end":580.342,"text":"你應該叫交通部陳部長下台啊對不對你要找那個何局長下台啊罵我幹什麼很奇怪你覺得我是不是勇往被罵了部長你回答我問題我不曉得他罵什麼沒辦法評論因為我不曉得他罵什麼他罵我鬼混啦說那個什麼黑箱作業幹什麼的是啊你是沒看到啦你的幕僚跟他們講到馬志旺去找出來看看好不好"},{"start":581.446,"end":593.856,"text":"我再去了解一下執政黨的黨員也有執政黨,國有國法,家有家規嘛,有點規矩嘛好不好,我們共同譴責,好不好謝謝你的協助,好不好好,謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1924,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（12時54分）謝謝主席！是不是請交通部長？"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳委員雪生：還有數發部部長和工程會主委。"],["主席：黃部長、陳主委。"],["陳委員雪生：三位部長早。預算解凍案其實有兩個很重要的時間點，一個是黨團協商，很可惜黨團協商時柯總召跟傅總召在吵架，當時有很多部會幕僚在後面。其實可以談，你們有什麼困難、有什麼需求可以提出來；提出來我們就可以處理，就可以解凍。但吵架到最後就是無疾而終，送院會處理……原來你們是在搞大罷免。至於第二個時間點，你們也可以提出解凍，但據我了解，行政院不讓你們提報告解凍，所以各部會說很多錢被凍結、不夠用了，像交通部有大樓用電只能到五點半、到幾點。我跟你講，你們活該！是你們不提報告，所以不能怪反對黨，對不對？其實不光反對黨，執政黨也有委員提凍結案，畢竟凍結預算行之有年，對不對？不是國民黨發明的或民眾黨發明的，民進黨也一樣有提，所以一定會有凍結案。","我跟三位部長請教，也了解一下，你們明明有兩個很好的時間點，所以不能怪我們，也不能在電視上怪藍白凍結你們的預算！當然，今天的預算解凍案我跟他們協調好了，應該會放你們過關，問題是你們講話時小心一點，好不好？我們沒有阻攔你們，這是程序，行政程序就是這樣走，是不是？黃部長跟陳主委請回，謝謝。","剛才交通部會計處張處長提到，因為財劃法讓你們有很多經費來源短絀不能用。處長，今天行政院主計總處也在這裡，跟這有什麼關係？"],["張處長信一：因為財劃法……"],["陳委員雪生：中央政府總預算一定是在既有的歲入基礎來編列歲出預算，是不是這樣？"],["張處長信一：是。"],["陳委員雪生：你做會計那麼久了，當知財劃法是分配稅源多出來的，是超徵的、是多出來的錢，跟歲入、歲出什麼關係？你說因為財劃法造成錢不夠用？你解釋給我聽！"],["張處長信一：影響的是未來。"],["陳委員雪生：我剛剛講的話你解釋給我聽。"],["張處長信一：這影響的是未來。"],["陳委員雪生：怎麼影響？"],["張處長信一：所謂的超收其實還是要還債……"],["陳委員雪生：跟這個沒有關係，還債關你什麼事？"],["張處長信一：國家的事。"],["陳委員雪生：國家的事……"],["張處長信一：這是國家的事，我們部裡面對於財劃法的態度是尊重國會……"],["陳委員雪生：你不要把交通部看得那麼大，你懂了沒有？你還管到全國財政？"],["張處長信一：沒有，但我們會受影響……"],["陳委員雪生：全國財政是財政部跟行政院主計總處管的，不關你的事！你是就你既有的，也就是行政院主計總處給你的額度去編列預算，是不是這樣？"],["張處長信一：是，沒錯，委員講的是。"],["陳委員雪生：所以你講的不對！"],["張處長信一：問題是整個行政院沒有錢時，就會緊縮交通部的所有相關支出，而我們因為要滿足各地方的需求，自然就會受到影響……"],["陳委員雪生：如果稅源沒有超收的話怎麼辦？用電也省了嗎？"],["張處長信一：是，我們……"],["陳委員雪生：問題在統刪！問題出在統刪，是不是這樣？所以你就講統刪，跟財劃法什麼關係？"],["張處長信一：那是委員提案，要我們就財劃法對我們的影響做解釋……"],["陳委員雪生：你講話已經超過你的職權了，你了解沒有？行政院主計總處、財政部可以講這個話，你怎麼可以講這個話？你是交通部的會計處處長，你講這個講話已經……你可以代表行政院主計長嗎？你不行啊！"],["張處長信一：是，不代表！但這是委員要求我們回答財劃法對我們的影響，我們只是說……"],["陳委員雪生：沒有影響！一定有多少歲入在那裡，你才能編歲出的錢，是不是？難道超收多少用猜的嗎？你又不是玄天上帝，也不是濟公活佛，你怎麼會知道？你是上帝嗎？你會知道超收多少錢嗎？再給你3兆，也不夠，是不是？好，處長請回。","早上王美惠委員提到這兩天出了重大車禍，部長，這件事應該就制度上面去檢討，不要因為一個75歲的老人出了車禍，就要把換照改到70歲，我也是受害者耶！我75歲了，那我今天要去考試喔？沒有道理啊！"],["陳部長世凱：換照機制一直都在。"],["陳委員雪生：好，沒關係。如果有一個60歲的人發生重大車禍，撞死了十幾個，那你要降低到60歲嗎？我不曉得你們是誰……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們不是針對單一個案做決定的。"],["陳委員雪生：你就是為了這件事情啊！"],["陳部長世凱：不是。"],["陳委員雪生：去年你有提出來嗎？前年有提出來嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：其實這已經研議一段時間了。"],["陳委員雪生：沒有道理啦！"],["陳部長世凱：之所以會先提出來的原因，是因為現在社會大家很關注，我們就把我們目前研議的結論先跟社會報告。"],["陳委員雪生：我跟你講，你在應付社會，我沒有意見，問題是制度不能這樣朝令夕改，你要朝著制度面去走。"],["陳部長世凱：過去這個制度我們已經做10年了，到了該改的……"],["陳委員雪生：這個人精神有沒有問題？體力有沒有問題？四肢有沒有問題？你去考慮這個嘛！你把它改到70歲……"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在都有納入了。"],["陳委員雪生：我也是受害者，你知道嗎？我不是受害者嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們不會讓您受害，我們這個方案是要協助年長者……"],["陳委員雪生：你不讓我受害？你以為那個S型可以隨便進去、可以隨便出來的喔？有那麼厲害喔？那個不容易的。"],["陳部長世凱：我們沒有說要考S型。"],["陳委員雪生：沒有考S型，那考什麼？考長方形，還是正方形？"],["陳部長世凱：三個月之後會提出整體方案，屆時再跟委員報告。"],["陳委員雪生：可以筆試嘛！是不是？出車禍的原因很多，喝酒、精神不濟，有些……"],["陳部長世凱：我們不是為了單一個案，我們是整體的駕照管理，是包含新考照的、包含已經在路上開，但是有一些違規樣態要回訓的機制也都有，換照是另外一個，我們總共有三個方向。"],["陳委員雪生：所以王美惠委員剛才在講，我坐在臺下，我是受害者，我跟你講，一定會有很多鄉親出來講話。"],["陳部長世凱：委員如果已經75歲，本來就是到了現行機制該換照的年齡了。"],["陳委員雪生：不是換人喔？"],["陳部長世凱：是換照。"],["陳委員雪生：換駕駛喔？"],["陳部長世凱：換照。"],["陳委員雪生：就是叫我不要開車的意思嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：不會，現在很多人換照都很順利。"],["陳委員雪生：現在八十幾歲，生性善良，但要做壞事、要去撞人，那沒辦法，那神經有問題，你不能把精神病的人統統算在裡面啊！是不是？這沒有道理嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們真的不是看個案。"],["陳委員雪生：修這個法，你們稍微小心一點，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["陳委員雪生：不要今天出了車禍，明天出了什麼風災、什麼人禍，又來啦！這要修、那要修。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這不是急就章，我們不會做急就章的事情，這是制度整體的改善。"],["陳委員雪生：這次到馬祖去考察，大家非常辛苦，數發部部長也去了，我也感受到你們的誠意，好不好？我希望大家同心協力，因為馬祖是個藍白合作的地方。我剛才到內政委員會質詢海基會，他的專門委員每天在罵連江縣政府、罵陳雪生委員，要我們把北竿機場的配套拿出來，怎麼樣、怎麼樣、怎麼樣，一直罵我們。現在執政的是民進黨，交通部是執政黨的，他應該去喊什麼？連江縣地方黨部也好，海基會的人怎麼可以去搞這個事？吃飽飯閒著沒事做，我才問他，他吃什麼飯、做什麼事？連江縣黨部也在罵我們，他應該叫交通部陳部長下臺啊！對不對？叫何局長下臺啊！他罵我幹什麼？很奇怪耶！你覺得我是不是冤枉被罵了？部長，你回答我問題。"],["陳部長世凱：我不曉得他罵什麼，沒辦法評論，因為我不曉得他罵什麼。"],["陳委員雪生：他罵我鬼混，說什麼黑箱作業，幹什麼的。部長是沒看到啦，跟你的幕僚講去馬資網找出來看看，好不好？你可以做個參考。"],["陳部長世凱：我再去了解一下。"],["陳委員雪生：執政黨的黨員……國有國法，家有家規嘛！有點規矩嘛！是不是？我們共同譴責，好不好？謝謝你的協助。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員雪生：好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生委員。那個譴責你可以個人表態！","請林月琴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-12","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","黃健豪","何欣純","蔡其昌","徐富癸","邱若華","鍾佳濱"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次長好那今天我是要關心台大婦產科的事那我本來以為我今天要問部長因為我知道次長都有表達相關的意見那不能每次性別相關都叫女性首長出來這樣很不公平那不過因為今天只有次長可以問那我就贏了"},{"start":31.388,"end":49.573,"text":"這樣子 當然了解那其實今天蠻多委員有關心到黃姓前住院醫師案那我知道衛福部剛剛有表達說你們會發函給各地公會強調不需要判刑確定就能送懲處那我今天其實是想用我的投影片來問"},{"start":52.073,"end":69.288,"text":"這其實是第一案2023年的鄭姓醫師案次長應該知道當時是我辦公室接到陳情他知道這位醫師至少性侵或性猥褻六位女性然後2024爆出的陳姓醫師現在還是婦產科醫學會理事長"},{"start":72.731,"end":86.605,"text":"他被控性騷六位就是女醫師同仁然後今天很多人關心的黃姓前住院醫師性侵病人我覺得我想問的是台大婦產科都是台大婦產科"},{"start":89.607,"end":106.576,"text":"三年連環三大案這個是因為其中的性騷也是情節嚴重的權勢性騷然後另外兩案都是性侵案為什麼台大婦產科三年可以報三案到底是內部"},{"start":107.196,"end":128.288,"text":"我覺得是不是除錯機制或者是組織文化出了什麼問題因為婦產科對我們來講更嚴重因為婦產科他本來就會涉及到病患的性隱私高度的敏感那專業倫理如果出了或者組織文化出了嚴重的問題我想社會信賴也會崩解所以我今天"},{"start":129.529,"end":150.051,"text":"因為剛剛已經有人講過案情了我就不再重複黃姓一失案就是一審判決出爐大家已經知道了比較少提到的剛剛有一位委員有問到就是我接到的陳情人就是這位陳姓李市長權勢性騷被台大醫院調查去年六月就是情節重大權勢性騷對多位"},{"start":152.273,"end":166.031,"text":"台大教評會讓他三年不得聘任為教師那這樣的人 不知道次長您覺得他適合擔任婦產科婦產學會的理事長嗎您個人會認為他適合嗎我自己也是婦產科醫學會的會員"},{"start":167.873,"end":183.599,"text":"是我知道所以您感觉这样子的一个事件事实上深深的伤害了不论是妇产科医师或者是全部的医师在民众的信任这件事情我想委员我们一起都处理过性平三法法律事实上是所有道德的最低底线"},{"start":183.979,"end":201.132,"text":"那醫師身為專業工作者也接受在患症學分裡面應該有的性別學分甚至我相信醫師有足夠的專業能力以及他的知能知道他對於病患之間應該有的行為所以這件事情事實上是真的非常不可接受"},{"start":201.949,"end":224.964,"text":"所以你也不能接受他繼續擔任理事長而且還要帶隊出國那陳情人跟受害人可能是好朋友甚至是受害人因為他們都不願意揭露自己公開揭露他的訊息那我真的覺得作為一位就是長期關心性評我對婦產科學會這種處理方式覺得不可思議我也覺得相關的機制應該是哪裡出了問題當然台大"},{"start":227.785,"end":234.368,"text":"婦產科醫師的部分我想我們今天是向衛福部請命基層醫師的公會也都已經發聲明了我們要給年輕醫師一個怎麼樣的示範我想就幾個問題想請問因為衛福部剛剛有講你們會發函給各地公會"},{"start":246.252,"end":270.691,"text":"可是這裡面台大醫院說他一月就已經發函不只是衛福部地方主管機關醫師公會所以台北或新北衛生局到底有沒有一副懲戒醫師公會婦產科醫學會有沒有懲戒衛福部在今天之前有沒有追蹤監督然後台大醫院把他停病三年為什麼還可以到其他醫院去任職那最後一個謝謝次長林靜次長已經回答說他不適任了那"},{"start":275.595,"end":302.709,"text":"我自己是也想問的是我們的醫師法跟相關的懲戒辦法我仔細讀了一下好像完全沒有說實現多久內要調查完畢懲戒完畢開完會那也只有給相關當事人什麼20天之內要回應等等這一些那懲戒辦法是不是應該要做修正也希望那個林建一次長那今天您就全權代表衛福部"},{"start":304.11,"end":331.205,"text":"那既然部長人在WHO是不是就能夠承諾大家你們會修正檢討然後剛剛這幾個單位都能夠監督他們謝謝委員關心我想我們在這個事情尤其是黃姓婦產科醫師這個案子我們是到判決之後那判決看到了之後我們立刻行文給地方衛生局希望他們能夠來一副懲戒所以在衛福部這邊我們的動作知道的時候是這個樣子"},{"start":332.125,"end":358.084,"text":"那至於說現在的資訊是就我們所了解地方衛生局接下來應該是預計在七月份六月份會開懲戒那針對我們最近所關注到的三位婦產科醫師來開懲戒我們也希望我今天也在今天委員會再一次的希望就是說在懲戒的過程之中醫界要能夠發現也能夠理解整個社會對於醫療人員尤其是醫師的倫理應有的態度"},{"start":360.285,"end":383.357,"text":"那至於說在學會這邊那為什麼這位台大解聘三年不能夠當教授的他還可以也就是不能當醫院的醫師嗎因為這是教學院還可以去別的醫院呢其實這個就是他在然後還可以當理事長理事長因為這樣學會內部當然我也跟委員報告就是說我跟部長其實我們在過去這幾個月持續有跟學會這邊提到這個疑慮你們提疑慮他們還可以不處理"},{"start":384.177,"end":405.194,"text":"學會一再強調就是他們內部的一些規定以及包含學會說他們還要再等一些調查等等台大醫院的調查詮釋性騷塵力情節重大他們還認為沒有公信力各位知道這樣的東西很難有證據所以並不容易調查我覺得這是組織文化的問題不知道次長同不同意因為大家輕忽了然後包庇這樣的醫師"},{"start":411.179,"end":424.051,"text":"然後讓一粒老鼠屎壞了讓大家失去了對整個領域的信任我覺得真的很遺憾非常需要正視的一件非常嚴重的事情而且我也要在這個角色裡面去說我認為相關的整個醫界"},{"start":428.047,"end":441.943,"text":"除了在談到要重視或者是要保障這個所謂的當事人的權益之外也希望我們的學會跟醫界要能夠考慮到這個過程中的被害者權益這裡面的被害者甚至很多是我們自己的同事"},{"start":443.001,"end":460.067,"text":"以這位那個陳姓醫師來講就是受害的女醫師嗎而且權勢地位上遠低於她所以在這個過程裡面我們也希望醫界要能夠不斷的去提醒自己這個過程中受害者的權利是更應該要被放在優先前提"},{"start":460.492,"end":477.779,"text":"那今天是不是也請就是次長也能夠去關切因為我看醫師公會的聲明他們也認為台大醫院雖然給他相關的懲戒等等但是對於其他住院醫師受害人的權益其實並沒有做得很好好不好那所以次長願意修正懲戒辦法"},{"start":478.319,"end":505.21,"text":"我想在懲戒辦法部分跟委員報告我們事實上除了醫師之外因為我們也發現各醫事人員的職種他內部相關的倫理或懲戒都散在各個法裡面所以醫事司我們正在研議就是說是不是把這個部分全部做一個中整那讓醫事人員的行為部份能夠有一個比較明確的準則那在多久之內可以給本席一個報告呢我們是不是可以在兩個月兩個月內那希望不要再讓這些學會公會再有任何的藉口好不好是 謝謝謝謝次長謝謝 謝謝黃偉維"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1204,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（13時6分）有請次長。"],["林次長靜儀：委員好。"],["范委員雲：次長好。今天我是要關心臺大婦產科的事，我本來以為今天要問部長，因為我知道次長都有表達相關的意見，但不能每次有性別相關的事都叫女性首長出來，這樣很不公平。不過因為今天只有次長可以問……"],["林次長靜儀：抱歉，部長到WHO了。"],["范委員雲：這樣子？瞭解。其實今天滿多委員有關心到黃姓前住院醫師案，我知道衛福部剛剛有表達說你們會發函給各地公會，強調不需要判刑確定就能送懲處。我今天其實是想用我的投影片來問：第一案，即2023年的鄭姓醫師案，次長應該知道，當時是我辦公室接到陳情，知道這位醫師至少性侵或性猥褻6位女性；然後2024年爆出的陳姓醫師現在還是婦產科醫學會理事長，他被控性騷6位女醫師同仁；然後是今天很多人關心的黃姓前住院醫師性侵病人。我想問的是，這些都是在臺大婦產科！3年連環3大案！因為其中的性騷是情節嚴重的權勢性騷，另外2案都是性侵案，為什麼臺大婦產科3年可以爆3案？是內部除錯機制或者是組織文化出了什麼問題？婦產科發生這些對我們來講更嚴重，因為婦產科本來就會涉及到病患的性隱私，高度的敏感，當專業倫理或者組織文化出了嚴重的問題，我想社會信賴也會崩解。因為剛剛已經有人講過案情，我就不再重複，黃姓醫師案一審判決出爐，大家已經知道了。而比較少提到的，剛剛也有一位委員問到，就是我接到陳情人所指，就是這位陳姓理事長權勢性騷被臺大醫院調查，去年6月就已是「權勢性騷成立且情節重大」、「對多位」，臺大教評會讓他3年不得聘任為教師，這樣的人，次長您覺得他適合擔任婦產學會的理事長嗎？您個人會認為他適任嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，我自己也是婦產科醫學會的會員。"],["范委員雲：是，我知道，所以您感覺他適任嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：所以這樣子的一個事件，在民眾的信任這件事情上，深深的傷害了不論是婦產科醫師或者是全部的醫師。委員，我們一起都處理過性平三法，法律事實上是所有道德的最低底線，醫師身為專業工作者，也接受在換證學分裡面應該有的性別學分，甚至我相信醫師有足夠的專業能力以及他的知能，知道他對於病患應該有的行為，所以這件事情事實上是真的非常不可接受。"],["范委員雲：所以您也不能接受他繼續擔任理事長嘛！而且還要帶隊出國！陳情人跟受害人可能是好朋友，甚至是受害人，因為他們都不願意公開揭露他的訊息。做為一位長期關心性平者，我真的對婦產科學會這種處理方式覺得不可思議，我也覺得相關的機制應該是哪裡出了問題。","當然臺大婦產科醫師的部分，我想我們今天是向衛福部請命，基層醫師公會也都已經發聲明了，我們要給年輕醫師一個怎麼樣的示範？我想就幾個問題請問，因為衛福部剛剛有講你們會發函給各地公會，可是這裡面臺大醫院說一月就已經發函給不只是衛福部、地方主管機關、醫師公會，所以臺北或新北衛生局到底有沒有移付懲戒？醫師公會、婦產科醫學會有沒有懲戒？衛福部在今天之前有沒有追蹤、監督？然後臺大醫院把他停聘三年，為什麼他還可以到其他醫院去任職？最後一個，謝謝次長，林靜儀次長已經回答說他不適任了，我自己也想問的是，我仔細讀了一下我們的醫師法跟相關的懲戒辦法，好像完全沒有說時限，即多久之內要調查完畢、懲戒完畢、開完會，也只有給相關當事人什麼20天之內要回應等等這一些，所以懲戒辦法是不是應該要做修正？既然部長人在WHO，林靜儀次長您今天就全權代表衛福部，您是不是能夠承諾大家你們會修正檢討，然後針對剛剛這幾個單位，也都能夠監督他們？"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員關心。我想我們在這個事情，尤其是黃姓婦產科醫師這個案子，我們是看到判決之後立刻行文給地方衛生局，希望他們能夠移付懲戒，所以我們衛福部這邊知道的時候，動作是這個樣子。至於說現在的資訊，就我們所了解，地方衛生局接下來應該是預計在6月份會開懲戒，針對我們最近所關注到的3位婦產科醫師來開懲戒，我今天也在委員會再一次的希望，在懲戒的過程之中，醫界要能夠發現也能夠理解整個社會對於醫療人員，尤其是醫師的倫理應有的態度。至於說學會這邊……"],["范委員雲：這位被臺大解聘3年且不能夠當教授的人，為什麼他還可以……也就是不能當醫院的醫師嘛，因為這是教學醫院，為什麼還可以去別的醫院呢？且還可以當理事長。"],["林次長靜儀：學會內部的部分，我也跟委員報告，我跟部長在過去這幾個月其實也持續跟學會這邊提到這個疑慮。"],["范委員雲：你們提了疑慮，他們還可以不處理？"],["林次長靜儀：學會一再強調他們內部的一些規定，以及包含學會說他們還要再等一些調查等等。"],["范委員雲：臺大醫院的調查說權勢性騷成立、情節重大，他們還認為沒有公信力！各位知道這樣的東西很難有證據，所以並不容易。"],["林次長靜儀：很不容易調查。"],["范委員雲：我覺得這是組織文化的問題，不知道次長同不同意？"],["林次長靜儀：同意。我希望……"],["范委員雲：因為大家輕忽了，然後包庇這樣的醫師、然後讓一粒老鼠屎壞了……讓大家失去了對整個領域的信任，我真的覺得很遺憾。"],["林次長靜儀：這是非常需要正視、非常嚴重的一件事情，而且我也要在這個角色裡面去說，我認為整個醫界除了要重視或者是要保障所謂當事人的權益之外，也希望我們的學會跟醫界要能夠考慮到這個過程中的被害者權益，這裡面的被害者甚至很多是我們自己的同事。"],["范委員雲：以這位陳姓醫師的案子來講，受害的是女醫師，是住院醫師，而且權勢、地位上遠低於他。"],["林次長靜儀：遠低於他，所以在這個過程裡面我們希望醫界要能夠不斷地去提醒自己，這個過程中受害者的權益是更應該要被放在優先前提的。"],["范委員雲：今天是不是請次長也能夠去關切，因為我看了醫師公會的聲明，他們也認為臺大醫院雖然給了他相關的懲戒等等，但是對於其他住院醫師受害人的權益其實並沒有做得很好，好不好？所以次長願意修正懲戒辦法？"],["林次長靜儀：我跟委員報告，在懲戒辦法的部分，事實上除了醫師之外，因為我們也發現各醫事人員的職種內部相關的倫理或懲戒都散在各個法裡面，所以我們醫事司正在研議是不是把這個部分全部做一個綜整，讓醫事人員的行為部分能夠有一個比較明確的準則。"],["范委員雲：好，那在多久之內可以給本席一個報告呢？"],["林次長靜儀：是不是可以兩個月？"],["范委員雲：兩個月內，那希望不要再讓這些學會、公會再有任何的藉口，好不好？"],["林次長靜儀：是。謝謝。"],["范委員雲：謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員、謝謝次長。","接續我們請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":138,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-12","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","徐巧芯","盧縣一","黃國昌","劉建國","涂權吉","林淑芬","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","黃秀芳","洪孟楷","張啓楷","范雲","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","楊曜","賴惠員","葉元之","王育敏","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃捷"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145201_00002"}}},{"id":"161758","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161758","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db39ba31cfb897190dcdb65d50a7385bb67364d18bd4e850e85e42fc9f2fe0e8b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:59:08 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主席 現在林市長市長 您什麼時候知道林業勤林委員是凱凱案這個案子仿事社公司的督導應該是前一段時間立法院這邊講出來的凱凱案老講 現在今天談起來心都還很疼"},{"start":40.512,"end":65.448,"text":"心都還很疼 現在大家覺得很意外的是林月琴明明是外部的這個督導她應該是第一時間應該是很快知道凱凱被售內而死這個案子可是呢她一直默不作聲就我了解月琴委員好像在2023年底還是2024年初她就跟幾位委員很關心這個案子"},{"start":67.745,"end":85.998,"text":"大家疑問的是說過了三個月媒體報導說那時候的國民黨立委王玉敏他是兒福聯盟的董事那時候他已經被迫要辭職了當天民進黨還有十多位的立委到衛環委員會這邊來杯葛議事大家一定有印象嘛林業勤林委員也是其中之一他安靜從容地坐在這邊而且做了質詢"},{"start":97.486,"end":107.212,"text":"他一副還是以專家自居大家在問的是一個凱凱案的社工園的外部督導他盡了什麼樣的責任第二個 當民進黨圍剿王一鳴的時候你內勤不曉得他的責任也很重嗎今天台灣民眾黨沒有要向民進黨"},{"start":126.328,"end":151.847,"text":"那要去圍剿王毅民或者去圍剿當初推動壯世代的吳春城吳春城為了解決55歲以上的年長者希望有更好的生活有更好的這個工作也解決我們少子化缺工的問題也希望推動壯世代這個產業他在民進黨的"},{"start":155.919,"end":173.53,"text":"杯葛抹黑之下他為了自清 為了保住他的壯士代他選擇了辭去立法委員名字現在大家最要問的林業勤啊林業勤到現在盡了什麼責任台灣民眾黨不會像民進黨這樣去圍剿林業勤可是"},{"start":183.427,"end":204.073,"text":"站在人民的角度來看至少兩個問題要解決啊一個是凱凱案為什麼這麼悲慘的事情會發生我們整個社福的制度面裡面出了什麼樣的大問題這是第一個第二個重要的林內勤的角色他到底要負責怎麼樣的責任我要請教次長林內勤到現在都還是"},{"start":213.783,"end":216.346,"text":"淨堅基金會的董事淨堅基金會多年來拿了很多包括衛福部的案子標案對不對"},{"start":224.951,"end":253.201,"text":"這個我們剛剛今天委員有質詢到基金會那基金會這邊我們都是來接基金會來跟我們申請的案子好那根據採購法委員會這個應該是立衝法這些基金會來跟我們申請或者是來跟我們標案他們必須要提出當初民進黨在指責其他人的時候是不是講這就是在利益迴避我們也希望 老實講吳春城非常生氣說有人把他跟林業勤這個案子拿來對比"},{"start":254.619,"end":280.814,"text":"可是老實講你如果真的要拿來對比你如果講無尊整個利益迴避的這個問題林月琴這個案子嚴重100倍以上更清楚更多的案子而且是大家到現在喔林月琴到現在還是進監基金會的這個董事這是第一個問題第二個我要問你了他為什麼可以一個人身兼那麼多職他是督導又是講師又是評鑑委員評鑑演的這個委員"},{"start":284.693,"end":301.422,"text":"委員你是在哪一個單位我說你現在新北市跟台北市都提出來了對不對你在衛福部這麼久你也當過立委對不對有任何市長除了林燕瓊之外有一個人是負責社工園當督導的又是講師又是評鑑員是委員嗎有嗎"},{"start":303.143,"end":314.462,"text":"你印象中有一個嗎我們在醫界事實上蠻常會有又是醫師又是評鑑委員然後他本身可能又是某一些機關的評鑑的督導那也是一些包含指導的講師你覺得這樣"},{"start":316.963,"end":332.91,"text":"一個人申請這麼多詞是合適的嗎沒有這個衝突嗎委員我們只能今天最近這一兩個禮拜有多少的專家學者跟民意代表出來提醒這一點了你們是做一個改革嗎委員我只能就包含立衝相關的社福團體應該這樣嗎我跟您報告就是說社福團體來跟衛福部申請經費或者是標案那我們也要求社福團體依照我們剛剛講立衝的法他們要揭露他們內部的一些相關是不是有立衝的部分衛福部在看"},{"start":347.038,"end":350.551,"text":"談王詠敏的時候談吳淳祥不是這樣回答吧這是嚴重的一個雙標"},{"start":354.472,"end":378.468,"text":"我要強調 我剛講過了我們不會像台灣台灣民眾黨不會像民進黨這樣圍剿任何的立法委員我們要的是一個公道制度破洞了趕快去找制度面把它補起來第二個 個人該負的責任要負起責任這樣才是個良善的台灣社會有問題解決 有辦法解決問題的台灣社會所以有具體的要求"},{"start":380.529,"end":408.14,"text":"是不是林烈祺應該馬上辭掉淨堅兒童安全文教基金會的董事還有台少門副董事長 副理事長這個職務這些都是民間團體 民間團體衛福部這邊他們內部的董事成員我們目前沒有任何權利好 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副總裁前面剛才問他說跟美元掛鉤你那個央行政策你要不要我給你時間說明一下他剛才沒要跟你說前面那一個啦"},{"start":29.952,"end":35.318,"text":"其實我們的外匯的操作策略我們看到市場出現很"},{"start":36.578,"end":64.938,"text":"很異常的時候我們會加大我們的進展干預的程度前面那個說你們跟美元掛鉤有這回事嗎我不曉得所謂的掛鉤是因為美元是我們很重要的一個交易的媒介所以我們匯率在某種程度上是跟國際美元有一點連動的關係的所以綠政策是一個非常非常重要但是也非常非常專業你要綜合判斷各個因素"},{"start":66.093,"end":94.322,"text":"來做這個會議的決策是很簡單的一顧為就可以規則於什麼原因規則於這個決策是因為什麼這樣不專業而且我覺得在國會的質詢要有一定的素養跟水平好我第一個問題想請教這個三位包括彭主委包括莊部長就新清安的房貸房貸這個核貸量降"},{"start":95.629,"end":112.996,"text":"因為新台幣這個強升經濟不確定因素提升所以四月的核貸年減30%月減20%這個對青年人要貸款是非常不容易還有剛性需求也會被處"},{"start":114.642,"end":138.128,"text":"現在博文是經管會還是要財政部還是要央行共同跨部來解決怎麼樣讓新青安這些年輕人貸款能夠更為簡便更為順利莊部長有關新青安這個部分他就幫助沒有房屋的青年朋友們去買第一間房子"},{"start":138.581,"end":152.724,"text":"那在我們公股行庫在沉坐的時候事實上我們的院長已經要求就是說對於這種自住的然後首購主端是優先的放貸可是從數字來看它是年減30%月減20%這個部分第一個受理的件數也往下降的話那當然合貸的件數跟金額也會往下降那受理的件數也就是說他去買房子以後他來申請貸款嘛"},{"start":165.347,"end":188.63,"text":"那其實新青岸從推出以後之前其實在去年的時候五月達到最高的一個高峰所以目前的政策作為不會影響新青岸貸款的相關的效率速度不會目前不會譬如說像央行的信用管制對於首購族也沒有做一些特別的部分所以也不會有這個門檻的增加那我想請問彭主委您的看法呢"},{"start":189.951,"end":217.332,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們從去年9月30號開始每個禮拜監控市場房貸的變化那我們得到幾個結論從過去一直到現在9個月的時間大概平均一個月的貸放量大概是250億到350億之間平均大概就是300億左右我們平均的餘額大概是2500億總量大概是維持在4000億左右的水準那大概"},{"start":218.112,"end":242.065,"text":"這意思是說這麼久來幾乎大概都是沒有變化我轉成另外一個問題就是說這個國營的房貸的壞帳是有增加這個壞帳增加當然是在可控的範圍對於這個房貸的並沒有因此而增加但比例上是沒有增加啦但是總額有增加吧"},{"start":243.38,"end":267.418,"text":"總額有增加啦我只是提醒一下總額有增加啦這個應該是這樣講我們會定期公佈這個剛剛講餘放比率現在這是一個訊息但是現在目前在可控範圍這是一個訊息剛剛副總也了解那我接著再請教一下嚴副總裁就是說關於第七波的健全房市的信用管制啊"},{"start":268.12,"end":283.288,"text":"那上一次這個總裁來,我記得郭國文委員也曾經請教過他,是不是會做這個調整,會不會對這個政策做一些的修正,他說他會檢討,那檢討不見得會調整,意思是說會檢討,那不是會調整,你的看法呢?"},{"start":289.676,"end":307.036,"text":"就是說第七波信用管制有沒有可能再放鬆報告委員我剛才已經回答過其他委員同樣的問題就是說我們在理事會開會之前我們都會檢視我們最近的那個房地產情況我們再做判斷所以現在言之過早"},{"start":308.032,"end":311.154,"text":"其實我們的同仁每天都在注意到相關資訊的收集和整理"},{"start":330.154,"end":355.922,"text":"這個有關於你買新房子那舊房子要一年之內要拒絕要出售你第一個房子覺得第二個房子條件比較差可能坪數比較小可能地點比較不好所以他才有換屋的需求對不對好你買了房子你要一年之內要把它賣掉第一個除非運氣好第二個除非你這個降價求售"},{"start":357.274,"end":371.625,"text":"它地點絕對是比地點更賣所以它那個房屋處置的時間你要讓它有彈性你說叫它一年 沒一年你就要收回相關的貸款我覺得這不盡合理每個區不一樣喔"},{"start":373.726,"end":396.36,"text":"你每個去牛籠 台北市 台北市 買地戶 賣地戶當然沒有什麼太大問題如果從屏東市 屏東縣要到高雄縣或者從台南 嘉義要到台南也許它的城市發展規模不一樣所以它每坪的售價也不一樣 它的房子條件也不一樣沒有 剛才前面一個也讓你 已經給你很多時間了啦你要一致同仁啦 你要一致標準 你不用雙標"},{"start":403.274,"end":425.309,"text":"那個我請教一下那個副總長您的看法有沒有可能讓他這個彈性你說 啊今天沒有啊在一分鐘結束好不好在一分鐘那個報告委員因為很多的意見我們都會拿回去再參考和研議啦對啦 但是這個還是這是反映民情反映民情啦所以你要去做一些調整去考謝謝卿委員的資訊 謝謝"},{"start":429.576,"end":440.537,"text":"葉元之 葉元之 魏元之委員不在陳貫庭 陳貫庭 陳貫庭委員不在報告五位今日登記已發言 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本席比較關心另外一個部分是針對說前兩天新北三峽有發生這個重大的車禍那交通部在昨天已經有講到是說要把現行的高齡換照從75歲條降到70歲那並且還要再針對這個不管是體檢或是這一些制度有一些相關的一個措施那以比較專業的考量來講因為"},{"start":40.723,"end":58.874,"text":"不管說這一件三峽新北三峽的案件到底他是不是高齡者的這個開車的一個狀況因為現在有更多的訊息或是新聞看到他有可能是肇事逃逸但不管怎麼說這都是天理來龍也都是大家沒有辦法接受可是拉回來我們現在比較討論的是因為我今天早上有看到您也受訪講到"},{"start":59.855,"end":75.264,"text":"交通部有沒有找衛福部來提供相關的資訊如果未來要調降到70歲那我們有什麼樣的一個協助比較專業的評估是評估這個人到底能不能適合來做這個開車的一個部分謝謝文官先生我想這個案子我們都非常非常難過"},{"start":75.984,"end":99.935,"text":"那到底這個事件發生的原因我們就尊重調查對檢調現在正在調查不過在衛福部這邊的角色當然我們會全力來協助交通部也就是說交通部這邊事實上對於他在考他應該說駕照的合法以及哪些人他要剝奪他的駕照這件事情過去其實除了年齡之外也有其他的條件那所以衛福部這邊會以提供專業上的意見來讓交通部做參考"},{"start":100.935,"end":117.462,"text":"因為現行的換照制度75歲是只要提供所謂的體檢報告跟未失智報告那就可以來做一個換照那將來有沒有什麼樣考慮是可以再做更精進專業的一個評估甚至交通部有提到所謂要實地演練"},{"start":118.422,"end":134.204,"text":"但我今天問交通部部長交通部長也說三個月內會給我們相關的指引所以這三個月可能也會要請衛福部這邊來協助什麼樣的一個實際演練是高齡者他駕車必要一定要有靈活的一個判斷或是靈活的一個掌握能夠讓"},{"start":135.445,"end":150.286,"text":"行車的安全是可以有保障的我們會根據國外的一些例子以及對於就是生理或者是精神上的能力在交通判斷上面的科學數據來給交通部做評估"},{"start":150.987,"end":178.781,"text":"那我們就期待衛福部也要提供相關的專業好不好那另外一點拉回來今天召委感謝有排這相關的案件但是我其中特別大家也要針對就是台大醫院的2021年發生這個黃姓醫生的性侵犯性侵猥褻的案件我想釐清幾個部分因為今天早上我有看到也是有相關的詢答講是說2.5個月裡面的兩個半月內台大醫院其實就內部做了懲處是不是"},{"start":179.791,"end":208.387,"text":"呃 是不是請台大台大 院長是離開了來 院長還在是是 好那但是為什麼會沒有報社會局而是為什麼只有報社會局而沒有報衛生局咧依照法規來講他這是性騷案件所以他通報是通報社會局但是這是依照哪一個法規醫師法沒有 這應該不是醫師法這應該是性騷的防治法不是 但是針對醫師法因為他是醫師嘛"},{"start":209.468,"end":212.27,"text":"教育系統的他之後調查完之後是送教育部如果是在職場的"},{"start":239.249,"end":261.134,"text":"好 職場這邊的話 那它事實上就是通報的地方職場也拉遠了我們現在針對個案 這是個案也可能是通案首先不針對說台大醫院或是任何的醫院可能都有可能發生那樣的情況那為什麼會在醫師法裡面第25條有相關的一個規範是 如果說有下列情況的話醫師公會或是主管機關是可以依附做懲戒的其中第四款"},{"start":262.738,"end":287.193,"text":"今天早上答詢的時候回覆講是說因為要經判刑確定之後我們今天沒有這樣說我剛剛看到媒體報導我們今天沒有這樣說我們一直都沒有主張說它就是醫師法那五款都可以使用是沒有錯所以說我現在講的是說第二款是判刑確定但是有第四款是如果說執行業務違反醫學倫理它就應該要受懲處嘛"},{"start":288.414,"end":302.473,"text":"這個部分就是我們希望包含了工會或者是違反醫學倫理以次長違反醫學倫理什麼樣的樣態什麼樣的形式違反醫學倫理有非常多的樣態那其中比較明顯的比較常見的"},{"start":304.635,"end":331.777,"text":"這次這幾個案件他在看病人的過程中利用他照顧病人的過程對病人進行猥褻或者是騷擾這本來就是違反醫學倫理是他也違法那另外有一些醫師在整個執行過在他的這個執行業務的過程裡面譬如說他有對於病人的這個不當的言行或者我們講的依照他的因為病人對他的這個信任而進行了不應該有的行為都是在所以你是中央儲管機關你講非常明確嘛"},{"start":332.398,"end":350.31,"text":"利用醫病關係圖利包括性騷擾或性侵病人這都是違反醫學倫理嘛所以我們也希望如果說違反醫學倫理而剛剛也提到在這個案件裡面台大醫院內部2.5個月就已經有做出相關的一個懲戒但是他沒有送衛生局"},{"start":351.457,"end":364.176,"text":"所以我們他只有內部的行政作業然後他是送通報給社會局台大這邊是依法通報啦但是我們也希望說因為這違反醫學論你就醫師法25條啊所以我跟委員說啊我們也認為我也認為醫師這邊那醫病關係對於99%"},{"start":367.901,"end":396.43,"text":"我都姑且我也都相信我也願意相信99%的醫師都是好的醫師都是正常醫師都是遵守醫學倫理但我們不能讓少數的害群之馬那少數的害群之馬他們做了或是說他們犯了這樣的一個過錯之後應該該怎麼做就要怎麼做所以在這個流程上我們全力支持不論是醫師公會或者是這個機構內的這些醫院的主管等等他們應該要能夠向地方衛生局來提出要求這個醫師進入懲戒委會"},{"start":397.87,"end":423.38,"text":"所以說在這個案件我想我們一用個案來防止後面通案的一個發生就未來像這個案件是不是醫院裡面如果說有因為性騷擾性侵害而開了院內的委員會確定把他調職以外你就應該要通報衛生局目前的法規如果在法律裡面來講他的權責法律就已經有啊就是一支法25條啊一支法25條第四款不就是告訴你說你"},{"start":425.417,"end":445.844,"text":"執行業務違背醫學倫理由醫師公會或主管機關移送懲戒我們支持他們移送懲戒我們也希望大家一起來建立這樣子的一個專業道德移送懲戒所以我現在講的就是說在針對這個案件我想台大醫院是國內的龍頭我們尊重"},{"start":447.085,"end":474.555,"text":"其他的醫院我們也都認為99.9%的醫師都是好的都是正常的都是良善的但是不要有那個少數的害群之馬所以我們才講是說當今天發生院內如果說有發生性騷擾性侵害的一個狀況院內自己來做調查完畢之後就應該要通報除了社會局還有衛生局我們希望醫師我們希望醫院調查完之後他可以去做這個衛生局 您是主管機關不只是希望他醫法可以 委員他醫法可以你應該是"},{"start":476.172,"end":503.961,"text":"他依法可以在這個案件上面是不是沒有他依法可以但是就是到了事情已經判刑後我們才知道這件事啊有個報告委員就是說他在調查過程所以民事長您講到了一個名言嘛我也其實你講這個名言我覺得是我可以接受你說衛生局不會通靈所以如果說沒有人來報案的話衛生局不知道所以他沒有辦法開罰但現在我們就講的就是說主管機關要負起責任它是社會安全網的一環就環環相扣所以"},{"start":505.941,"end":532.11,"text":"應該未來為什麼大家會覺得白色巨塔裡面比較官官相護就是大家會認為說在這件事情上面明明已經兩個半月醫院就已經做出了院內的一個調查並且把這個醫師給調離了可是他持續的看病然後他沒有受到醫師法25條第4款的一個處罰沒有去送懲戒所以衛生局不知道那衛生局不知道他就沒有辦法做後續的處理"},{"start":533.413,"end":559.498,"text":"所以我們希望我們也拜託工會跟機構他是可以做成績你是主管機關你有權限你不能只是希望怎麼會到時候你好像是路人夾一餅丁委員我想澄清這件事那經過這一次這樣的討論之後我們發現一個盲點就是因為醫生在執行職務的時候他看病病人對病人為性騷擾然後醫院直接做調查"},{"start":560.698,"end":589.533,"text":"調查之後按照法律規定他要送當地的主管機關也就是社會局剛才院長也這樣講那社會局要成立一個審議會去審議他的行為是不是就構成性騷擾那這個行為確定之後那我們之後會做的一件事做行政這個協助會把這個確定的公文給衛生局那衛生局自然知道了這件事他就會進行"},{"start":591.214,"end":615.929,"text":"請問您是我是保護福斯保護福斯張市長市長你講的其實市長我再麻煩您回來就是說其實我覺得這不衝突是沒有錯你其實通報可以一起通報因為院內已經做成了你的調查的一個結果所以說你通報你社會局所謂的這個性騷擾的主管機關但另外一個部分你的醫師法也有相關的機關是衛生局嘛"},{"start":616.369,"end":635.035,"text":"所以照理講就是未來如果說有類似的案件我們都不希望再發生我們也要求因為這樣的態度的問題告訴所有醫師們你如果說好好的做事好好看病不會有任何問題但是不要違反醫學倫理的行為這個是國人所關心的剛剛其實我們社長這邊講到就是他跟社會局通報之後社會局這邊我們會讓他長出一個機制過去衛生局那是現在沒有嗎這個東西要長出來但是我說現行的狀況是"},{"start":646.755,"end":659.172,"text":"一個是現行的狀況讓他從社會局連接到衛生局一個是現行的狀況更簡單就是當任何一個醫院做完內部調查之後他主動通報兩個單位一個社會局一個衛生局這樣就可以了這件事情真是良軌"},{"start":662.295,"end":682.104,"text":"我們用主管機關告訴所有現在我覺得很簡單的事情你是主管機關你直接告訴我們全台灣的醫院都是說未來你用這樣的事情你應該有一個SOP而其中SOP就是要這樣做報告委員我們會今天已經有決議所以我們會再發一次函通知包含地方的主管機關跟各工會"},{"start":683.344,"end":707.861,"text":"然後落實這個機制當然也希望接下來在懲戒的會議裡面這些在懲戒委員會的這些委員們可以考慮到現在的社會對於這些事件的關注給予適當的懲戒是因為法令已經在那邊了但是不能因為法令在那邊但是它卻沒有嚇阻作用或是讓大家外界覺得是有關關相護的感覺好嗎謝謝市長"},{"start":712.711,"end":713.013,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員 謝謝次長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1089,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時47分）主席謝謝，麻煩請林次長。"],["主席：次長請。"],["林次長靜儀：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長好。本席比較關心另外一個部分，針對前兩天新北三峽發生重大車禍，交通部昨天已經講到要把現行的高齡換照，從75歲調降到70歲，並且還要再針對不管是體檢或是這一些制度，有一些相關的措施。以比較專業的考量來講，不管這一件新北三峽的案件到底是不是高齡者開車的狀況，因為現在有更多的訊息或是新聞看到他有可能是肇事逃逸，但不管怎麼說，這都是天理難容，也都是大家沒有辦法接受的。可是拉回來，我們現在比較多討論的是，因為我今天早上有看到您也受訪，交通部有沒有找衛福部來提供相關的資訊？如果未來要調降到70歲，那我們有什麼樣的一個協助、比較專業的評估，是評估這個人到底能不能適合來開車的部分。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員關心。我想這個案子我們都非常非常難過，這個事件發生的緣由我們就尊重調查。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，檢調現在正在調查。"],["林次長靜儀：是，不過站在衛福部這邊的角色，當然我們會全力來協助交通部，也就是說交通部對於駕照的核發以及他要剝奪哪些人的駕照這件事情，過去其實除了年齡之外也有其他的條件，所以衛福部會提供專業上的意見讓交通部參考。"],["洪委員孟楷：依現行的換照制度，75歲只要提供所謂的體檢報告跟未失智報告就可以換照。將來有沒有什麼樣的考慮，可以再做更精進、專業的評估？甚至交通部有提到要實地演練，但我今天問交通部部長，交通部長也說三個月內會給我們相關的指引。所以這三個月可能也會請衛福部來協助，什麼樣的實際演練是高齡者駕車一定要有靈活的判斷，或是靈活的掌握，能夠讓行車的安全是可以有保障的。"],["林次長靜儀：衛福部會根據國外的一些例子，以及對於生理或者是精神上的能力，在交通判斷上面的科學數據，來給交通部做評估。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那我們就期待衛福部也要提供相關的專業，好不好？"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：另外一點，今天感謝召委排這個相關的案件，但是其中特別要針對的就是，臺大醫院2021年發生黃姓醫師的性侵猥褻案件。我想釐清幾個部分，今天早上聽到委員的相關詢答，臺大在2.5個月內就做了內部懲處，是不是？"],["林次長靜儀：是不是請臺大……"],["洪委員孟楷：臺大院長是不是已經離開了？院長還在，是不是？"],["吳院長明賢：2.5個月就做完了。"],["洪委員孟楷：為什麼只有通報社會局，卻沒有通報衛生局呢？"],["林次長靜儀：依照法規而言，這是性騷案件，所以是通報社會局。"],["洪委員孟楷：這是依照哪個法規？醫師法？"],["林次長靜儀：沒有，這個應該不是醫師法，而是性騷擾防治法。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是針對醫師法的部分呢？因為他是醫師嘛！"],["林次長靜儀：沒有，醫師法的部分是另外一件事。報告委員，我們對於性騷或性侵等等有性平三法的法規，包含性別工作平等法、性別平等教育法及性騷擾防治法。就性別工作平等法與性別平等教育法而言，事實上，在學校這邊要有性平相關的裁處以及在他的職場上要有性別工作平等法的裁處。就這兩邊而言，如果是屬於教育系統的部分，調查完之後是送教育部，如果是屬於職場的部分，事實上就是通報地方主管機關。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，你拉遠了！我們現在是針對個案，雖然這是個案，但也有可能是通案。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我先不針對臺大醫院或任何醫院都可能發生那樣的情況，為什麼會在醫師法第二十五條有相關的規範？如果有下列的情況，醫師公會或主管機關可以移付懲戒，其中第四款，今天早上答詢時的回復是因為要經判刑確定後才做……"],["林次長靜儀：我們今天沒有這樣說。"],["洪委員孟楷：剛剛看到媒體的報導。"],["林次長靜儀：我們今天沒有這樣說、我們一直都沒有這樣主張，它就是醫師法的五款都可以使用。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，沒有錯！我現在是講第二款要經判刑確定，但是有第四款，如果執行業務違反醫學倫理就應該要送懲處嘛！"],["林次長靜儀：這個部分就是我們希望包含公會或機構這邊……"],["洪委員孟楷：所謂的違反醫學倫理，次長，關於違反醫學倫理，什麼樣的樣態、什麼樣的形式是違反醫學倫理？"],["林次長靜儀：違反醫學倫理有非常多的樣態。"],["洪委員孟楷：其中比較明顯的、比較常見的？"],["林次長靜儀：譬如這次的幾個案件，利用看診時照顧病人的過程對病人進行猥褻或騷擾，本來就違反醫學倫理、也違法。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，沒錯。"],["林次長靜儀：另外，有些醫師在執行業務的過程中，譬如對病人有不當的言行，或是倚仗病人對他的信任而進行不應該有的行為，這些都是在醫學倫理上……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，你是中央主管機關，講得非常明確，利用醫病關係圖利，包括性騷擾或性侵病人，這都是違反醫學倫理嘛！"],["林次長靜儀：所以我們也希望公會可以……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果是違反醫學倫理，剛剛也提到臺大醫院在2.5個月內就對這個案件做出相關的懲戒，但是它沒有通報衛生局，只有內部的行政作業，而且只通報了社會局。"],["林次長靜儀：臺大這邊是依法通報啦！但是我們也希望，因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：違反醫學倫理就是醫師法第二十五條啊！"],["林次長靜儀：我們也認為、我也認為醫師這邊……"],["洪委員孟楷：所謂的醫病關係，我都相信、我也願意相信99%的醫師都是好醫師、都是正常醫師、都是遵守醫學倫理，但我們不能讓少數人成了害群之馬，所以在這些害群之馬犯了這樣的過錯之後，應該怎麼做就要怎麼做嘛！"],["林次長靜儀：在這個流程上我們全力支持，無論是醫師公會或機構內的醫院主管等等，它都應該要能夠向地方衛生局提出要求讓醫師進入懲戒委員會。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，針對這個案件，我想我們應該要利用個案來防止通案的發生，未來像這類的案件，如果醫院因為有性騷擾或性侵害而召開院內的委員會，除了確定將他調職之外，也應該要通報衛生局。"],["林次長靜儀：根據目前的法規，如果就法律而言，它的權責往上通報……"],["洪委員孟楷：法律就已經有了，醫師法第二十五條啊！醫師法第二十五條第四款不就是告訴你，執行業務違背醫學倫理由醫師公會或主管機關移送懲戒。"],["林次長靜儀：我們支持他們移送懲戒。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["林次長靜儀：我們支持他們移送懲戒，也希望大家一起建立這樣的專業道德，移送懲戒。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，針對這個案件，臺大醫院是國內的龍頭，我們予以尊重，至於其他的醫院，我們也認為99.9%的醫師都是好的、都是正常的、都是良善的，但是不要有少數的害群之馬，所以我們才會提出，一旦醫院發生性騷擾或性侵害的狀況，在院內自行調查完畢之後就應該要通報社會局及衛生局。"],["林次長靜儀：我們希望醫院調查完之後可以主動送懲戒。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們是主管機關，不能只是希望，應該是要求。"],["林次長靜儀：委員，它依法可以、它依法可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：在這個案件上是不是沒有？"],["林次長靜儀：它依法可以，但就是到了已經判刑後，我們才知道這件事啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：它可以，但是它沒有！"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，它在調查過程……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，你講到了一句名言，其實我可以接受你講的這句名言，衛生局不會通靈，如果沒有人報案的話，衛生局不知道就沒有辦法開罰，但我們現在講的是主管機關要負起責任，因為它是社會安全網環環相扣的一環。為什麼大家會認為白色巨塔內比較官官相護？醫院明明在2個半月內就已經針對這件事作出調查並將醫師調離，但是他卻仍然持續看診，沒有受到醫師法第二十五條第四款的處罰、沒有移送懲戒，所以衛生局不知道，因為衛生局不知道就沒辦法做後續的處理。"],["林次長靜儀：所以我們希望、我們也拜託公會及機構，它是可以送懲戒。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，你是主管機關擁有權限，不能只是希望，怎麼到最後你好像是路人甲乙丙丁。"],["張司長秀鴛：委員，我想澄清這件事，經過這次這樣的討論之後，我們發現了一個盲點，因為醫師執行職務時對病人性騷擾，醫院直接做調查，調查之後，按照法律規定要送當地的主管機關，也就是社會局，剛剛院長也是這樣講。社會局要成立一個審議會去審議他的行為是不是就構成性騷擾，在這個行為確定之後，我們做的行政協助會把這個確定的公文給衛生局，衛生局自然就知道這件事，它就會進行懲戒。"],["洪委員孟楷：請問你是？"],["張司長秀鴛：我是保護服務司。"],["洪委員孟楷：保護服務司張司長？"],["張司長秀鴛：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，再麻煩你回來，我覺得這個其實並不衝突。"],["林次長靜儀：是，沒有錯，不衝突。"],["洪委員孟楷：可以一起通報，因為院內已經做出調查結果，所以通報性騷的主管機關是社會局，但是另外一個部分，醫師法的相關機關是衛生局嘛！"],["林次長靜儀：是，如果……"],["洪委員孟楷：照理講，未來如果有類似的案件，雖然我們都不希望再發生，但我們也要求因為這樣的態度問題，必須告訴所有的醫師們，如果好好的做事、好好的看診就不會有任何問題，但是不要有違反醫學倫理的行為，這是國人所關心的。"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，你講的是兩軌，剛剛我們這邊講的是向社會局通報之後，我們會讓社會局這邊長出一個機制過去衛生局，我們現在……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是現在沒有嘛！"],["林次長靜儀：這個東西要長出來，但我說現行的狀況是……"],["洪委員孟楷：一個是現行的狀況，讓它從社會局連結到衛生局，另一個更簡單的狀況是當醫院做完內部調查之後就主動通報2個單位，一個是社會局、一個是衛生局。"],["林次長靜儀：是，我們就是希望它這麼做啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：這樣就可以啊！"],["林次長靜儀：這件事情就是兩軌、就是往下通報啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：我覺得這是很簡單的事情，你是主管機關就直接告訴全臺灣的醫院，未來遇到這樣的事情應該要有一個SOP，以後的SOP就是要這樣做。"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，今天已經有了決議，所以我們會再發一次函，通知地方的主管機關及各公會，落實這個機制。"],["洪委員孟楷：落實辦理機制。"],["林次長靜儀：是，當然也希望接下來懲戒委員會的這些委員們可以考慮到社會對於這些事件的關注，給予適當的懲戒。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，因為法令已經在那邊了，不能讓它沒有嚇阻的作用，或是讓外界認為有官官相護的感覺，好嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員、謝謝次長。","接續請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":138,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-12","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","徐巧芯","盧縣一","黃國昌","劉建國","涂權吉","林淑芬","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","黃秀芳","洪孟楷","張啓楷","范雲","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","楊曜","賴惠員","葉元之","王育敏","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃捷"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145201_00002"}}},{"id":"161755","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161755","video_url":"h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美元指數 日元 歐元都一致只有新台幣不正常 然後一次就把這個數字把它補回來了那個報告委員 如果你去看一下其他的經濟資料我們的第一季經濟成長率是比亞洲各國都高很多第二個我們的外資在4月5日都大幅度那最後我們的漲幅也跟別人是幾乎差不多的啊"},{"start":249.229,"end":277.708,"text":"是啦不 匯率它反映很多的經濟面的一個程度那副總你說這樣子的一個線圖跟別人比較起來這樣算正常嗎正常還不正常我們認為我們透過這樣子的操作策略讓我們的新台幣甚至預期有一點點把它降低很多好不好我想在這段時間匯率漲或跌都有好處跟壞處這個不討論但是就是要穩定不能有巨大的波動"},{"start":278.228,"end":291.211,"text":"但是我們的央行很明顯的在川普就任之後為了跟美元掛鉤到最後的一個結果造了許多廠商的一個損失或是銀行的一個損失我認為這是央行必須要好好檢討的好不好 下一張下一張"},{"start":292.366,"end":318.722,"text":"好那接下來就是一樣這個美元霸權的一個問題啦對美元一攬子貨幣我們的外匯存底到底要不要估註在美元身上那先前標準普爾跟匯域都已經調降了穆迪也在上禮拜五調降了我想還是要繼續請我們央行要思考一下在全球這個美元貶值的情況下然後信用平等的都持續調降之下我們是不是要來調整一下我們的外匯存底的一個"},{"start":319.362,"end":343.833,"text":"配置的比例我覺得真的要請央行我們好好思考一下然後剛剛第一頁的第二題目會後再給我資料這一點我覺得就是牽涉我們國人財產的問題那我後續會再持續追蹤好不好謝謝謝謝現在有蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉我們不在何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳我們不在邱志偉委員請質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1304,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（12時52分）謝謝主席！麻煩請央行嚴副總裁。"],["主席：請央行嚴副總裁。"],["廖委員先翔：副總裁好！因為央行有非常多的外匯存底，這對我們國家來說是一筆非常大的財富，所以它的價值也是大家非常注重的，我之前也在財委會質詢過我們的總裁，因為川普就任之後，有些人懷疑美元霸權是否會動搖還有美元的價值包括殖利率等等，那時候總裁跟我說他目前並沒有要調整一籃子貨幣的比例，第一點我先跟副總裁來確認一下，川普就任以來，目前我們央行持有的美國債券是增加還是減少？這個方向你應該清楚吧？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，因為我們持有的美債都是到期以後轉換，所以在每一個時間點都有到期的，也有要新買的。"],["廖委員先翔：那你們的方向是持續購入還是減碼？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我的瞭解是目前因為我們每年的外匯存底都在增加，所以我印象中，我們持有的美債今年還是有一點增加。"],["廖委員先翔：所以就是和過往的政策一樣，因為基數變大所以是增加。第二點要麻煩業務單位先幫我查一下，看看能不能在質詢結束前幫我計算一下，就是川普總統就任到今天為止，我國的外匯以臺幣計價的損益，好不好？我想跟副總裁確認一下，央行一再的對外宣稱我們並沒有操控匯率嘛，對不對？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：對。"],["廖委員先翔：這個是美元指數，副總裁應該非常瞭解，從川普總統就任以後，美元指數跌了8.6%，就是他這一籃子貨幣跌了8.6%，那我們來看一下其他的一些貨幣，美元兌換日圓的部分也跌了百分之七點多，滿接近剛才的數字；接下來是歐元兌換美元，這個應該反過來看，歐元兌換美元漲了百分之八點多，這其實也符合美元指數的一個波動，大家都是在這個區間調整，這個線型叫做K線，大家的K線線型大概都是差不多的。但是美元兌換新臺幣的指數卻跟別人的很不一樣，我們最終的結果，到目前為止是美元兌臺幣跌了7%，就是我們的臺幣大概漲了7%、8%左右，但是我們的線型跟別人很不一樣，反而是在兩、三個禮拜之前，當美元兌其他貨幣都在跌的時候，我們臺幣一次性的把它漲回來了。對這樣的情況，副總裁你覺得要怎麼解釋？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我們在面臨匯率波動比較大的時候，央行每天的操作策略當然會有所調整，這個也是我們過去一直在做的一個……"],["廖委員先翔：別人在穩定波動的時候，兌換美元穩定的在漲的時候，卻可以看到前一段時間我們都是穩定的、持平的，也就是我們跟美元幾乎是完全掛鉤的，別人兌美元漲我們卻沒有，然後大概在關稅談判的時候，卻把別人的漲幅一次性的漲回來。副總裁，你還要說你們沒有操作匯率嗎？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，我們的基本論點是當外匯市場有出現這種比較不正常的交易，我們認為是有一點問題……"],["廖委員先翔：目前看起來就是臺幣不正常啊！其他貨幣看起來都一致啊！美元指數、日圓、歐元都一致，只有新臺幣不正常，然後一次就把這個數字補回來了。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，如果你去看一下其他的經濟資料，我們的第一季經濟成長率是比亞洲各國都高很多；第二個我們的外資在4月5……"],["廖委員先翔：到最後，我們的漲幅也跟別人是幾乎差不多的啊！是吧？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：匯率它反映很多經濟面的一個成果。"],["廖委員先翔：那請問副總裁，你說這樣子的一個線圖跟別人比較起來算正常嗎？正常還是不正常？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我們認為透過這樣子的操作策略，讓我們的新臺幣升值預期有一點點……把它降低很多。"],["廖委員先翔：我想在這段時間，匯率漲或跌都有好處跟壞處，這個不討論，但是就是要穩定，不能有巨大的波動，可是我們的央行很明顯的在川普就任之後，為了跟美元掛鉤，到最後的一個結果是造成許多廠商的損失或是銀行的損失，我認為這是央行必須要好好檢討的。好不好？接下來就是美元霸權的一個問題，對美元一籃子貨幣，我們的外匯存底到底要不要孤注在美元身上？先前標準普爾、惠譽都已經調降了，穆迪也在上禮拜五調降了，我想還是要請我們央行思考一下，在全球美元貶值然後信用評等都持續調降的情況下，我們是不是要來調整一下我們外匯存底配置的比例？我覺得真的要請央行好好思考一下。然後請針對剛剛第一頁的第二個題目，於會後給我資料，我覺得這一點牽涉到我們國人財產的問題，我後續會再持續追蹤。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-13","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","林思銘","王世堅","林楚茵","廖先翔","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部、金融監督管理委員會、中央銀行就「房屋稅2.0課徵亂象與金融機構對不動產\n融資緊縮及中央銀行信用管制措施對房地產交易之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中\n華民國 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包括銀索稅我們可以抓得到"},{"start":302.122,"end":325.007,"text":"但是如果說是4月30號在境外中國的黃牛用中國的售票系統就買了我現在要求的是這個有沒有逃漏稅的問題有沒有相關的問題除了國安的問題之外我覺得站在財委會的角度 財政部的角度是這些稅不能讓它跑掉所以我請問部長或會署這個事情能不能查"},{"start":328.968,"end":335.217,"text":"然後可以怎麼查如果沒有答案我可以請你們提交報告給我然後告訴我多久可以有報告是不是我們了解整個情況以後再以報告來給委員"},{"start":342.148,"end":368.818,"text":"那可以查嗎 先告訴我 這樣可以查嗎報告委員 其實我們在查有沒有漏報營業稅短漏營業稅委員所說有很多方法像這個如果他最後這個見面什麼歌迷什麼簽證會這種事在台灣舉行其實我們也可以實地去看現場到底有多少歌迷在那邊如果 當然有一種狀況是如果他是封鎖的不讓我們進去 那是另外公權力的行為兩個禮拜 兩個禮拜提一個報告給"},{"start":371.519,"end":372.179,"text":"謝謝主席 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我請莊部長來 莊部長請"},{"start":9.891,"end":31.898,"text":"總部長我今天跟你談另外一個問題這九大公園卡庫董事長總經理都是你這邊所指派的我相信你也一定經過相當的了解調查熟視才會指派他們這個前幾天啊一營宜蘭分行"},{"start":33.291,"end":60.087,"text":"被當地刑警大隊進去搜查那有帶走他們的婦女還有四個行員所以他們因為他們涉及跟詐騙集團有勾結那總共光已經查到的案子有三十幾個受害人三個詐騙集團在那邊開了這個戶頭那我覺得很奇怪在先前啊"},{"start":61.988,"end":84.645,"text":"這三個公司的名下的戶頭都已經是警示戶為什麼這麼好的第一銀行竟然還給警示戶繼續開戶這不是很奇怪照說警示戶不但不能給他開戶而且要通報警方"},{"start":85.908,"end":111.165,"text":"所以我想了解的是這件事情你有沒有要求第一銀行針對這些開戶的流程去做一些是不是這些有疏失然後我才想了解第一銀行的情況我認為監督管理考核在第一銀行都出了問題竟然啊竟然上個禮拜"},{"start":113.689,"end":130.021,"text":"上三個月上三個月今年三月更大的台灣銀行台灣銀行竟然有兩個分行都是都是副理局還有行員涉入"},{"start":131.141,"end":151.656,"text":"都在台北 松山分行 仁愛分行這件事我想你應該知道涉及的金額高達2200萬而被逮獲的中間人他竟然就暗示說到這些行去開戶啊可以有回扣那"},{"start":154.653,"end":175.881,"text":"台銀這個涉及的金額更可怕它匯出匯出國外的金額竟然高達一億多元而裡面有一千萬啊竟然是匯到第一銀行剛才我講的上禮拜出事的這個行的同一個詐騙戶頭天啊天啊"},{"start":179.158,"end":180.359,"text":"壞到同一個公司帳號詐騙戶的這個警視戶所以我覺得這實在是很荒唐啦很荒唐齁那麼"},{"start":193.971,"end":220.266,"text":"那個部長你先說這個你瞭解不瞭解這件事有關台銀這個事情瞭解然後剛剛2200萬已經金管會是重罰那對於相關內部的人員包含這兩個行員這兩個行員其實是夫妻關係我在跟金管會談事情為什麼先找你談因為這九大公營行庫董事長總經理都是你派的義營董事長總經理有來嗎有請起立一下好不好"},{"start":222.52,"end":236.171,"text":"那個 你們是模範銀行欸天啊 在我心目中啊為什麼你看到非常高你是模範銀行我們儘管他還特別把ESG這麼重大的這個業務交由你們來推動欸台灣銀行有來嗎 董事長 總經理你們是龍頭銀行欸"},{"start":250.845,"end":271.059,"text":"一個龍頭銀郎 一個模範銀郎你們竟然出這樣子的事情好了這個照說啊要追究 要檢討警視庫的開戶流程要追查他們有沒有疏忽或者不法這個責任應該由總行由總行來專責監理單位結果到現在為止"},{"start":279.713,"end":288.888,"text":"我們整個公營銀行 公營行庫 九大公營行庫只有兆豐銀行啦他是有總行人家他設一個專責監理單位"},{"start":291.044,"end":311.23,"text":"所以那個部長是不是就這個你要要求九大公營航庫在總航要設置監禮單位監禮各分航針對針對這些警事戶的開戶流程做檢討查一查他們是不是有疏忽甚至不法可不可以我覺得應該是這樣做是"},{"start":314.687,"end":339.979,"text":"你知道那個台英董事長總經理我為什麼讓你站起來你知道你們先前啊你們先前答覆我你們回覆各單位你們都還跟這個治安單位說你們啊每半年你們就會執行員工違常狀況的清查你們說藉由觀察啦喔你們超厲害的你"},{"start":341.059,"end":354.709,"text":"你們算命嗎 你觀察 查研觀測就可以看到是這樣嗎都不用看他們開戶的流程 你觀察這些航員的外觀神色就可以知道是這樣嗎都不用看看他們經手的資料嗎他們該監管的開戶流程嗎"},{"start":365.592,"end":371.856,"text":"好啦 你們四位都是金融的長輩份齁我不為難你們 請坐請坐所以 部長我要跟你提的就是現在我們九大公營行庫應該來做模範的時候嘿 這一次打詐司法通過以後齁反而在做模範的都是民營銀行那一家啊"},{"start":393.752,"end":414.152,"text":"我最常說他的 就鼠寮三兄弟的大哥他背後的老闆 這個第一信託硬朗當時他的警示物最多我就說 欸 那個中國信託我說中國信託跟詐騙集團 We are family"},{"start":416.099,"end":439.685,"text":"結果這樣子跟他以後人家不到半年三四個月你看他們現在攔阻了28億元光是成立一個AI神盾聯防互幫金控也不遑多讓也弄了一個鷹眼國泰釋法也推了國泰盾"},{"start":441.078,"end":468.452,"text":"上半年他們主詐的金額12億元啦所以最主要設這些就是可以防止內神通外鬼所以部長我要求是不是你應該回去好好的要求公股銀行仿效民間銀行那麼引進AI還有在總行設專責的監獄單位可不可以"},{"start":469.465,"end":484.395,"text":"委員對於好的做法我們一定要引進來然後看能不能再做更為的精進我想委員這個提示我們可以會後就來做要求好謝謝那時間暫停你請回我請彭主委主委請"},{"start":490.046,"end":510.398,"text":"上個月我們被詐騙的金額76億啦只查扣到6億所以我一直不懂的就是說我們要求在治安單位要求之下希望我們銀行銀行端能夠配合圈存這些"},{"start":512.115,"end":530.871,"text":"受騙的金額結果圈存啦原先只圈存24小時銀行只配合24小時好不容易打詐釋法過以後現在社會壓力之下延長到48小時但是銀行公會也有講話啦24小時要48小時也罷"},{"start":537.952,"end":563.352,"text":"往往圈存的這些戶頭當警方過於忙碌當沒有再進一步方式的時候過了這個時間這個圈存戶又讓他恢復正常錢又流到詐騙機端他又拿走了所以我不懂銀行公會適合居心你今天回去問他一下適合居心啦"},{"start":564.42,"end":569.385,"text":"現在詐騙集團在A 被壞人在IAI在我們台灣變成是這樣詐騙人A 社會在I好英安公會竟然還大剌剌這麼講說這個權權時間過長"},{"start":589.997,"end":615.849,"text":"你知道嗎 民間第三方支付他們圈存時間都20天以上 第三方支付為什麼人家民間可以做到 應安公衛這莫名其妙的單位嘛所以你今天回去問他們好不好你問他們適合居心 我要求應該配合治安單位"},{"start":617.352,"end":623.881,"text":"把生存時間增長可不可以我們趕快來跟銀行公會來研究"},{"start":624.755,"end":648.513,"text":"然後那個詐騙集團現在也運用這些自然人憑證在開戶啦那很不錯的我們有七家這島市這七家我看大部分是公營含庫啦這個剛才講的兆豐他換成他是模範營能的義營也不錯啦義營、華營、和庫、台企、永豐還有張營"},{"start":650.234,"end":671.477,"text":"他們都改成說要視訊驗證或者臨櫃辦理這才能開戶我認為詐騙到現在這種地步後你想想一個月76億了這個完全不用考慮就是取消應該取消自然人憑證的開戶要不然改成臨櫃"},{"start":675.1,"end":691.753,"text":"這個臨櫃或者視訊驗證的方式好不好那個主席抱歉是不是再給我15秒給我30秒我要提到金管會我們有針對各營能應用AI做一個調查這裡面有兩個答案我覺得最莫名其妙啦"},{"start":692.691,"end":719.767,"text":"他們認為說 竟然有百分之三十的銀行業者我不曉得哪幾家啦他們竟然回答說 要運用AI的他說 業務上佔無需要天啊 業務上佔無需要 我剛剛講的嘛你運用AI 你像我剛剛提的這三大民營銀行他們用的這個"},{"start":721.414,"end":746.183,"text":"保護這個存款戶的方式像包括鷹眼國泰盾什麼AI神盾聯防這些人家就是善於應用AI嘛可以避免像台銀像義營宜蘭芬郎像台銀的奈芬郎這種內神通外鬼好不好我希望他們這個觀念要改你回去好好的跟他們談談"},{"start":747.583,"end":760.958,"text":"跟銀行公會談 跟各大公營行戶談 以及民間銀行對於已經有做 做得好的 我們鼓勵他對於不好的 你好好鞭策鞭策他們 好不好"},{"start":762.52,"end":762.54,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":792.585,"end":795.729,"text":"謝謝主席我知道這個外委會的時間比較短"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1256,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（12時32分）謝謝主席！我請莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：莊部長，我今天跟你談另外一個問題，這九大公股行庫的董事長、總經理都是你這邊指派的，我相信你也一定經過相當的瞭解、調查、熟識才會指派他們，但是前幾天，一銀宜蘭分行被當地刑警大隊進去搜查，帶走他們的副理還有4個行員，因為他們涉及跟詐騙集團勾結，光是已經查到的案子就有三十幾個受害人，有3個詐騙集團在那邊開了戶頭，我覺得很奇怪，因為在先前，這3個公司名下的戶頭都已經是警示戶，為什麼這麼好的第一銀行竟然還給警示戶繼續開戶？這不是很奇怪嗎？照說警示戶不但不能給他開戶，而且要通報警方，所以我想瞭解的是就這件事情，你有沒有要求第一銀行針對這些開戶的流程去做一些調查，是不是有疏失？我還想瞭解第一銀行的情況，我認為第一銀行的監督、管理、考核都出了問題。上上個月就是今年3月，更大的臺灣銀行欸！臺灣銀行竟然有兩個分行都是副理級還有行員涉入，就是臺北松山分行、仁愛分行，這件事我想你應該知道，涉及金額高達2,200萬元，而被逮獲的中間人竟然暗示說到這些行去開戶可以有回扣，臺銀這邊涉及的金額更可怕，他匯出國外的金額竟然高達一億多元，裡面有1,000萬元竟然是匯到剛才我講的上禮拜出事的這個第一銀行的同一個詐騙戶頭。天啊！匯到同一個公司帳號詐騙戶頭這個警示戶，所以我覺得這實在是很荒唐啦！很荒唐！部長先說一下你瞭不瞭解這件事？"],["莊部長翠雲：有關臺銀這個事情我瞭解，剛剛說到的2,200萬元部分，金管會已經重罰，相關的內部人員，包含這兩個行員，這兩個行員其實是夫妻關係。"],["王委員世堅：我在跟金管會談之前之所以要先找你談，是因為這九大公營行庫董事長、總經理都是你派的，一銀的董事長、總經理有來嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：有。"],["王委員世堅：請起立一下，好不好？你們是模範銀行耶！天啊！在我心目中是把你們看得非常高的，你是模範銀行，我們金管會還特別把ESG這麼重大的業務交由你們來推動耶！臺灣銀行的董事長、總經理有來嗎？你們是龍頭銀行耶！一個龍頭銀行、一個模範銀行，你們竟然出了這樣子的事情！好啦！這個照說是要追究、要檢討警示戶的開戶流程，要追查他們有沒有疏忽或者不法，這個責任應該由總行來設專責監理單位，結果到現在為止，我們整個九大公營行庫中，只有兆豐銀行是由總行設一個專責監理單位，所以就這個部分，部長是不是要要求九大公營行庫在總行設置監理單位，監理各分行針對這些警示戶的開戶流程做檢討，查一查他們是不是有疏忽甚至不法。可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：我覺得應該是這樣做。"],["王委員世堅：臺銀董事長和總經理知道我為什麼要讓你們站起來嗎？你們先前給我的答復，你們回覆各單位還跟治安單位說，你們每半年就會執行員工違常狀況的清查，你們說的是藉由觀察啦！喔！你們超厲害的耶！你們是算命的嗎？你只要觀察、察言觀色就可以看到，是這樣嗎？都不用看他們開戶的流程，你只觀察這些行員的外觀神色就可以知道，是這樣嗎？都不用看看他們經手的資料、他們該監管的開戶流程嗎？好啦！你們4位都是金融界的長輩份，我不為難你們，請坐。所以部長，我要跟你提的就是現在是我們九大公營行庫應該來做模範的時候，這一次打詐四法通過以後，反而在做模範的都是民營銀行，就是我最常說的薯條三兄弟中大哥的背後老闆──中國信託銀行，當時它的警示戶最多，我就說中國信託跟詐騙集團是「We are family」，結果這樣子說過之後，人家不到半年只三、四個月，光是成立一個AI神盾聯防，現在攔阻了28億元；富邦金控也不遑多讓，弄了一個鷹眼；國泰世華也推出了國泰盾，他們上半年阻詐的金額達12億元。所以設這些最主要的就是可以防止內神通外鬼，因此部長是不是應該回去好好的要求公股銀行仿效民間銀行，引進AI，還有在總行設專責的監理單位？可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，對於好的作法我們一定要引進來，然後看能不能再更為精進。我想委員這個提示，我們可以在會後就來做要求。"],["王委員世堅：好，謝謝，部長請回。我請教彭主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：彭主委，上個月我們被詐騙的金額有76億元，只查扣到6億元，我一直不懂的是，在治安單位要求之下，我們希望銀行端能夠配合圈存這些受騙的金額，原先銀行只配合圈存24小時，好不容易打詐四法通過以後，現在在社會壓力之下延長到48小時，但是銀行公會又講話啦！主委，24小時也好48小時也罷，當警方過於忙碌、當沒有再進一步的時候，過了這個時間，往往又讓這些圈存的戶頭恢復正常，錢又流到詐騙集團被他拿走了。所以我不懂，銀行公會是何居心？你今天回去問他一下，是何居心啦！現在詐騙集團在「A」，被害人在「I（哀）」，AI在我們臺灣變成是這樣──詐騙人在A、社會在哀嚎！銀行公會竟然還大剌剌的說這個圈存時間過長，你知道嗎？民間第三方支付的圈存時間都在20天以上，為什麼人家民間可以做到？銀行公會真是莫名其妙的單位嘛！所以你今天回去問問他們，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["王委員世堅：你問他們是何居心，我要求應該配合治安單位，把圈存時間增長，可不可以？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們趕快來跟銀行公會研究。"],["王委員世堅：現在詐騙集團也應用這些自然人憑證在開戶，那很不錯的，我們有7家，我看大部分是公營行庫，包括剛才講的兆豐──現在換成它是模範銀行了，一銀也不錯啦！一銀、華銀、合庫、台企、永豐還有彰銀，都改成要視訊驗證或者臨櫃辦理才能開戶，我認為詐騙到現在這種地步，一個月就被騙了76億元，這個完全不用考慮，就是取消！應該取消自然人憑證的開戶，改成臨櫃或者視訊驗證的方式，好不好？抱歉！請主席再給我30秒。我要提到的是金管會有針對各銀行應用AI做一個調查，這裡面有兩個答復我覺得最莫名其妙，竟然有30%的銀行業者，我不曉得是哪幾家，對應用AI這點回答說「業務上暫無需要」，天啊！居然說「業務上暫無需要」，我剛剛講了，這三大民營銀行他們用的保護存款戶的方式，包括鷹眼、國泰盾、AI神盾聯防這些，就是善於應用AI嘛！可以避免像一銀宜蘭分行、臺銀仁愛分行這種內神通外鬼的狀況嘛！我希望他們這個觀念要改，你回去好好的跟他們談談，跟銀行公會談，跟各大公營行庫以及民間銀行談，對於已經有做且做得好的，我們鼓勵他，對於不好的，你好好鞭策鞭策他們，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實銀行公會在這方面也非常努力，但是我們還是會持續跟他們要求改善。剛剛提到的AI的部分，可能是調查工具的詢問方式不一樣，我想我們會要求他們儘量用科技阻詐的方式來做這件事情，予以強化。"],["王委員世堅：是啊！可以避開人為疏忽或者勾結不法這些事，最好的、最棒的就是AI嘛！善用AI，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員的質詢。","現在請林楚茵委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-13","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","林思銘","王世堅","林楚茵","廖先翔","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部、金融監督管理委員會、中央銀行就「房屋稅2.0課徵亂象與金融機構對不動產\n融資緊縮及中央銀行信用管制措施對房地產交易之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中\n華民國 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大家都關心最近交通的悲劇大家都希望行人安全能夠再有效來提升這一次的不幸的悲劇當然也導引很多人去針對高齡駕駛的問題去做一個探討昨天我們有看到交通部提出了這個說法說要把高齡換照的年齡限制再降低我想請教一下是因為這個個案還是說你們針對這背後的可能曾經做了通案性的研究跟調查"},{"start":38.633,"end":61.521,"text":"報告委員我們其實針對駕照管理我們這段時間都一直在檢討包含新的考照的這個管理面然後包含回訊制度的管理面第三個才是針對換照的部分那這三個部分其實我們有都陸續在做討論那也陸續在研擬新的改革的方向我意思是說你把75歲拉低到70歲你背後的比如說數據或學理是什麼"},{"start":62.802,"end":79.412,"text":"目前各國的限制的年齡都不一樣我們的數字是從差不多10年前開始討論那個時候討論是用75歲作為界定那現在大家認為說其實高齡的駕駛的人員越來越多如果以70歲以上來說的話現在已經有182萬人的這個駕駛"},{"start":86.576,"end":115.437,"text":"那10年之後會增加到272萬人我們認為在這樣子的年齡的級距裡面的這一群駕駛的人我們需要協助他更安全的駕駛所以你有一個背後的數據做支撐你們交通部有沒有辦法提供一些相關的資料因為我想這國會應該有很多意見嘛對不對比如說各地的A1事故又造成死傷的這樣比較嚴重的交通事故跟駕駛的年齡它是不是有一定的甚相關我的意思是說你們有沒有一些這樣的一個資料作為參考"},{"start":116.753,"end":143.758,"text":"報告委員其實數據都有啦數據都有那至於為什麼我們用這樣子的年齡或者為什麼用這些的方法其實我也跟媒體昨天在報告的時候講的說法都一樣因為其實日本比台灣更早進入高齡化社會所以他們其實已經有一段時間的努力跟演進那我們參考他們的方式我們來做符合台灣社會跟整個駕駛習慣的調整我相信你在背後應該有做完整的說明這是第一個"},{"start":144.218,"end":162.3,"text":"然後第二個是這個制度要調整或是改革後面衍生出來的兩個面向的問題第一個我覺得除了檢討駕照的制度之外也要思考硬體也就是說有高齡駕駛另外一個是老車很多是沒有最新的安全的設備比如說自動啊等等這樣一些設備以前是沒有的"},{"start":162.961,"end":189.866,"text":"那麼相關的這些配套是不是也要跟著這次的檢討來一起來做處理讓比如說設備比如說AEB啊行人跟腳踏車偵測等等新車有舊車沒有它是不是跟交通事故也有一定的關聯性有沒有辦法藉這樣子的機會一併來做檢討這是本席給你的一個建議未來探討的時候也要把硬體的部分做探討第二個是你如果未來真的希望說比如說高齡的駕駛因為相對風險比較高所以希望他少使用適合運具"},{"start":190.566,"end":211.434,"text":"那你的配套是什麼其實大眾運輸嘛我有看你昨天記者會你講說我會補助你TPAS對不對我就免費給你月票可是關鍵還是回到我們常常在討論的問題嘛就是你即便有了一個相對低廉的票價補助但是問題是如果公車的班次不夠多路網不夠密集你沒有辦法符合這個本來生活的需要那你即便你給了他TPAS他沒有地方可以用啊"},{"start":212.034,"end":226.685,"text":"他反而會變成說我沒有汽機車我沒有腳這個問題還是回到這個命題所以請問交通部現在這段時間新的年度或者是也許下個年度針對公共運輸大眾運輸的軟硬體改善具體的提升現在有沒有什麼新的對策"},{"start":227.455,"end":246.261,"text":"包委員我們其實該做的補助一直都在做如果大院支持的話我們預算足夠當然我們可以做得更多所以這個部分我們繼續跟地方政府一起來努力你看我們剛剛一講這個就講說我們有做補助嘛我一直覺得票價補助只是提升大眾運輸運量的其中一種手段而已但我覺得應該是要針對"},{"start":248.541,"end":270.09,"text":"提高大眾運輸服務量能的這個案子本身來做精準的打擊精準的補助這是對的如果是都會區的話其實他的地方政府他們都有做規劃我們是站在協助的角度但是針對比較偏鄉的部分我們透過幸福巴士對啊比如說你有沒有一個專案有更多的幸福巴士我們現在已經有191個鄉鎮總共有495條的路線我剛剛有看到"},{"start":273.931,"end":301.658,"text":"台灣市政府有一個新聞啦就是說他把那種比較偏向的路線或比較少人大的路線他就用九人座的方式嘛然後他就媒介職業駕駛嘛然後他是不是把公車的駕駛控出來去跑大客車總之類似這樣的一些政策我希望交通部也要有明確的說明也就是說我要去因應人口高齡化希望私人載具下降的時候你其他的大眾運輸的配套我覺得這也是交通部要同步注意的地方好不好 相關的規劃是不是會後我們提供一些資料讓我們做追蹤跟參考 好不好好 謝謝部長 辛苦了"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1903,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時49分）謝謝主席！有請陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長辛苦了！大家都關心最近交通的悲劇，都希望行人安全能夠再有效提升，而這次的不幸悲劇當然也導引很多人針對高齡駕駛問題去探討。昨天我們看到交通部提出了一個說法，要把高齡換照的年齡限制再降低，我想請教一下，這是因為這個個案，還是說你們針對這背後的可能成因做了通案性的研究跟調查？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，針對駕照管理，我們這段時間一直都在檢討，包含新考照的管理面，也包含回訓制度的管理面，第三個才是針對換照的部分。對這三個部分其實我們都有陸續討論，也陸續在研擬新的改革方向跟方案。"],["牛委員煦庭：我的意思是說，你把75歲拉低到70歲，背後的數據或學理是什麼？可不可以跟大家講一下？"],["陳部長世凱：目前各國的年齡限制都不一樣，我們的數字是從差不多10年前開始討論，當時是用75歲作為界定，現在大家認為其實高齡的駕駛人員愈來愈多，如果以70歲以上來說的話，現在已經有182萬人，10年之後會增加到272萬人，我們認為對在這個年齡級距裡的這一群駕駛人，需要協助他更安全的駕駛。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你是有一個背後的數據支撐，那你們交通部有沒有辦法提供一些相關的資料？因為我想國會對此應該有很多意見嘛，比如說各地死傷比較嚴重的A1交通事故跟駕駛者的年齡是不是有一定的正相關？我的意思是說，你們有沒有一些這樣的資料作為參考？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實數據都有，至於為什麼我們採用這樣的年齡或者為什麼用這些方法，其實也和我昨天跟媒體報告的說法一樣，其實日本比臺灣更早進入高齡化社會，他們已經有一段時間的努力跟演進，我們參考他們的方式，做符合臺灣社會跟整個駕駛習慣的調整。"],["牛委員煦庭：我相信你背後應該是有做完整的說明，這是第一個。第二個是這個制度要調整或是改革後面衍生出來的兩個面向問題：第一、我覺得除了檢討駕照的制度之外，也要思考硬體。也就是說除高齡駕駛外，另外一個問題是老車很多沒有最新的安全設備，比如說制動等這樣的設備以前是沒有的，那麼相關的這些配套是不是也要跟著這次檢討一起處理？比如說AEBS、行人跟腳踏車偵測等等設備，新車有，舊車沒有，這些是不是跟交通事故也有一定的關聯性？有沒有辦法藉這樣的機會一併檢討？這是本席給你的一個建議，未來探討的時候也要把硬體的部分一起探討。第二、如果未來真的認為高齡駕駛因為相對風險比較高，所以希望他少使用私人運具，那麼你們的配套是什麼？其實就是大眾運輸嘛！我看你在昨天的記者會說會補助TPASS，我就免費給你月票嘛！可是關鍵還是回到我們常常在討論的問題，即便有了一個相對低廉的票價補助，但是如果公車的班次不夠多，路網不夠密集，沒有辦法符合本來生活的需要，那麼即便你給他TPASS，他也沒有地方可以用啊！他反而會覺得「我沒有汽機車就沒有腳」，還是回到這個命題，所以請問交通部，現在這段時間，新的年度或者也許下個年度，針對公共運輸、大眾運輸的軟硬體改善、具體的提升，現在有沒有什麼新的對策？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，該做的補助我們其實一直都在做，如果大院支持、預算足夠的話，當然我們可以做得更多，所以這個部分我們繼續跟地方政府一起努力。"],["牛委員煦庭：你看我們剛剛一講到這裡就會說我們有補助，我一直覺得票價補助只是提升大眾運輸運量其中一種手段而已，但我覺得應該要針對提高大眾運輸服務量能這個案子本身精準的打擊、精準的補助，這樣才是對的嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：如果是都會區的話，其實地方政府都有規劃，我們是站在協助的角度；但是針對比較偏鄉的部分，我們透過幸福巴士……"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！比如說你有沒有一個專案、有沒有更多的幸福巴士？"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在已經有191個鄉鎮、總共有495條的路線，覆蓋率已經達到94%。"],["牛委員煦庭：我剛剛看到桃園市政府有一個新聞，他們對比較偏鄉的路線或比較少人搭的路線採用九人座的方式，然後媒介職業駕駛，把公車的駕駛空出來去跑大客車，就是採用類似這樣的政策，我希望交通部也要明確的說明。"],["陳部長世凱：這些我們也有。"],["牛委員煦庭：也就是說要去因應人口高齡化，在希望私人載具下降的時候，我覺得其他大眾運輸的配套也是交通部要同步注意的地方。相關的規劃，是不是能在會後提供一些資料，讓我們追蹤跟參考，好不好？謝謝部長，辛苦了。"],["陳部長世凱：沒問題。"],["主席：我們請陳雪生委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-12","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","黃健豪","何欣純","蔡其昌","徐富癸","邱若華","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 呃 有請部長請陳部長怎麼都主動陳部長啊 應該都沒看見黃部長在那裏啊委員好好 部長辛苦了"},{"start":17.708,"end":42.181,"text":"我想這個去年其實11月就已經有發生過這個苗栗就是71歲的阿公他因為開車那接孫子那也就是出現這個爆衝的一個狀況那前天其實也非常的遺憾我們看到這個重大的一個事故那也造成了多人的這個受傷跟死亡的一個車禍"},{"start":43.662,"end":59.783,"text":"那這是78歲的駕駛喔那再來就是昨天又接二連三又多了一個案件是在台南38歲的駕駛他疑似就是電線發作那造成這個交通上的一個事故喔"},{"start":60.203,"end":84.29,"text":"其實這個凸顯整個所有在交通上的一個現行的風險不僅僅是來自於所謂的年紀那也有可能是來自他自己本身的身心的一個狀況那想說這個駕駛到底具不具備有所謂的這個安全駕駛的一個能力那針對這個事故的一些噪音的分析評估啦大部分都會停留在所謂的違規的條目的記錄上面"},{"start":86.17,"end":99.946,"text":"包含是沒讓車啦轉彎不當啦等等這一類比較表面上的一個原因但是沒有進一步的釐清這個背後是不是有所謂的這個認知或者是身體障礙的一個功能的一個退化"},{"start":101.167,"end":119.766,"text":"這個部分換句話來講我們現在對於所謂的這個交通事故的一個研判是不是真的能夠把真正高風險的駕駛人找出來這樣子的一個問題那我想更關鍵的就是在高齡駕駛者他們如果是完成一次的換照之後那如果接下來他因為是三年嘛"},{"start":120.226,"end":134.384,"text":"那如果之後這三年兩三年當中他的身體可能也有急速惡化或者是什麼樣的一個狀況我們是怎麼樣能夠掌握到這個所謂的互通的一個機制才不會讓很多的風險就如此的放生這是我們比較擔心的問題"},{"start":136.326,"end":155.008,"text":"那針對所謂的A1這一類的重大的車禍我們是不是能夠真正的從制度上去排除我剛剛所說的這些交通事故上的一個風險有沒有考慮跟衛福部來做跨部會的一些資料上的通報跟駕照的控管的系統"},{"start":156.042,"end":174.899,"text":"報告委員您的這個建議非常的好我們交通部這邊會跟衛福部這邊來做借接在醫療方面的資訊看怎麼樣讓這個駕駛人能夠確定他是在安全的狀態之下能夠駕駛這個資料我們正在設法借接當中這個部分我們會來努力包含未來的修法的部分我們也會來努力來進行"},{"start":176.16,"end":197.705,"text":"那至於所謂的這個認知的測驗跟這個體檢的一個制度其實我們都會擔心他比較過於所謂的知識化那這個知識化通常這個肇事者都是所謂的檢查合格他其實是合格的但問題是他肇事了那這類的這個評估我們怎麼樣來明確的定出他的門檻跟處理的一個機制"},{"start":198.63,"end":225.95,"text":"報告委員當然肇事有很多的原因不一定是跟他的體格或者他健檢方面是有關係因為肇事的原因有非常多的樣態但是對於他整個身體的功能跟認知功能也好這個部分我們有加強我們昨天公佈的這個新的方案裡面包含針對他的危險認知還有他的認知功能這個部分我們都有加強那除此之外對於他的四肢的靈活度的這個測驗我們未來也會加進來"},{"start":226.83,"end":254.82,"text":"然後他對於交通安全的這個觀念跟概念我們也會透過講習的方式至少半天的講習讓長者未來在換照的過程當中能夠參與這樣子的講習那如果針對是好不好意思沒關係實地的這個訓練如果有肇事的紀錄的話實地的訓練我們也會加入那如果他本身就有一個肇事的紀錄他將來這個所謂的駕照是不是有可能會考慮就是取消他的這個資格或者換照的一個資格"},{"start":256.539,"end":278.021,"text":"是 報告委員如果他是有造成傷亡他的駕照就會被吊銷好那如果有其他的肇事記錄不一定有造成傷亡的話這個我們就會要求要有實地的訓練好那剛剛其實我們就高齡的部分其實另外一方面像陳部長這個在記者會當中其實也強調就是這個肇事者其實蠻多的族群是在18歲到24歲的這個駕駛的年輕人的部分"},{"start":280.723,"end":306.503,"text":"那這個部分我們在這個年齡層上面有沒有一個配套可以再教育或者風險的一個預警的機制那是不是也可以比照所謂的高齡駕駛設計一個比方說先違規他違規了那我們要回訊了回訊之後呢要重新再做認證這樣子的一個機制報告委員一方面齁在新考照的這個部分我們要加嚴讓他的鑑別度要出來所以你即便是很年輕然後新考到駕照比較沒有經驗你也可以安全的駕駛"},{"start":307.344,"end":328.593,"text":"那如果年輕然後新考到駕照但是又有一些肇事的狀況出現的話或者是嚴重的違規的狀況我們會有一個回訓的機制希望他透過回訓的機制來加強他的安全駕駛的這個意識好 那我想這個希望不要再看到類似這樣子的一個交通事故其實真的是讓人覺得非常的遺憾那我們繼續加油好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1889,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（12時43分）好，謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。現在都主動請陳部長，你們都沒有看到黃部長坐在那裡。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，部長，辛苦了。去年11月就已經有發生過苗栗71歲的阿公開車接孫子時，出現暴衝的狀況；前天也非常遺憾，我們看到這個重大事故，也造成很多人受傷跟死亡，駕駛是78歲。再來就是昨天又接二連三多了一個案件，是在臺南，38歲的駕駛疑似癲癇發作，造成交通事故，其實這個凸顯現行交通上的風險不僅僅是來自於駕駛的年紀，也有可能是來自於駕駛本身身心的狀況。這個駕駛到底具不具備安全駕駛的能力？針對這個事故的一些肇因分析評估，大部分都會停留在違規條目紀錄上，包含沒有讓車、轉彎不當等等這類比較表面上的原因，但是沒有進一步釐清這個背後是不是有所謂的認知或者是身體功能的退化。換句話來講，我們現在對於交通事故的研判，是不是真的能夠把真正高風險的駕駛人找出來啦！我想更關鍵的就是高齡駕駛者在完成一次換照之後，因為是三年更換一次，如果之後的這兩、三年當中，他的身體可能會有急速惡化或者什麼樣的狀況，我們要怎麼樣才能夠掌握到這個互通的機制，才不會讓很多的風險就如此的放生了？這是我們比較擔心的問題。針對A1這一類重大車禍，我們是不是能夠真正的從制度上去排除？對我剛剛所說的這些交通事故上的風險，有沒有考慮跟衛福部建立跨部會的一些資料上的通報跟駕照控管系統？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您的這個建議非常好，我們交通部會跟衛福部介接，對於醫療方面的資訊，看要怎麼樣能夠確定駕駛是在安全的狀態之下駕駛，這個資料我們正在設法介接當中，這個部分我們會努力，包含未來的修法部分，我們也會努力進行。"],["郭委員昱晴：至於認知測驗跟體檢的制度，其實我們都會擔心它比較過於制式化，因為在制式化之下，通常這個肇事者都是檢查合格，他其實是合格的喔！但問題是他肇事了。對這類的評估，我們要怎麼樣明確訂出門檻跟處理的機制？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，當然肇事有很多的原因，不一定是跟他的體格或者健檢方面有關係啦！因為肇事的原因有非常多的樣態，但是對於他整個身體的功能跟認知功能，這個部分我們有加強。在昨天公布的新方案裡面，針對駕駛人的危險認知還有認知功能，我們都有加強。除此之外，對於四肢靈活度的測驗，未來也會加進來，對於交通安全的觀念跟概念，我們也會透過講習的方式──至少半天的講習，讓長者未來在換照的過程當中能夠參與這樣子的講習，如果有肇事紀錄的話，我們也會加入實地的訓練。"],["郭委員昱晴：如果他本身就有肇事的紀錄，將來是不是有可能會考慮取消他取得駕照的資格或是換照的資格？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，如果他有造成傷亡，他的駕照就會被吊銷，但如果是有其他的肇事紀錄，不一定有造成傷亡的話，我們就會要求要有實地的訓練。"],["郭委員昱晴：剛剛是就高齡部分的討論，另外一方面，陳部長在記者會中其實也強調，說肇事者其實滿多是落在18歲到24歲這個年輕的族群。我們在這個年齡層上面，有沒有一個配套機制可以再教育或者對風險提出預警？是不是也可以比照高齡駕駛設計，比方說他違規了要回訓，在回訓之後要重新再做認證這樣的機制？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們一方面是在新考照的部分加嚴，讓他的鑑別度要出來，所以即便是很年輕然後新考到駕照，比較沒有經驗但也可以安全的駕駛，如果年輕然後新考到駕照，但是又有一些肇事的狀況出現或者是嚴重違規的狀況的話，我們會有一個回訓的機制，希望他透過回訓的機制加強安全駕駛的意識。"],["郭委員昱晴：我希望不要再看到類似這樣子的交通事故，其實真的是讓人覺得非常的遺憾。我們繼續加油。謝謝部長！謝謝主席！"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們會努力。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-12","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","黃健豪","何欣純","蔡其昌","徐富癸","邱若華","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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也是往這方向走嗎可以分級距啦 年齡的級距啦例如說70歲到75歲是一個級距那75歲以上可能到80歲是一個級距我們用年齡的級距來來討論它的頻率這個我們會來討論這規劃不錯"},{"start":115.119,"end":141.104,"text":"就是反正至少本來的三年要稍微有一點要收減就對了另外一個這個是我特別提出來的就不是只有局限第一次滿75歲的我們要針對如果是65歲以上他如果曾經發生過有重大的交通違規或者是事故的駕駛人我們是不是應該在65歲以上有這些問題的要求他強制接受醫療跟認知的這個檢測"},{"start":144.05,"end":171.327,"text":"報告委員,這個有重大違規的部分,我們都有這個關懷的機制所謂關懷機制,其實有點類似像委員所說的這些啦那我們的關懷機制會去針對有特殊的這個肇事,或者是特殊的違規的部分會來進行,65歲以上所以是等於是65歲就開始要做這個事,對不對?是那另外一個,我具體的要求,強化認知功能這個測驗之外,我們要加上入考"},{"start":173.528,"end":196.91,"text":"就是不要只是紙上的這個測驗啦就是實際的那個駕駛技術的那個測驗強化他實際那個駕駛能力的評估可以嗎?報告委員我們這個認知測驗之外我們現在有加了危險感知所謂危險感知就是他遇到危險的狀況在反映能力跟對危險的理解危險感知也會加進來還有就是他視知的靈活度這個部分我們也會加進來"},{"start":197.691,"end":212.478,"text":"那再來 講習的部分 交通安全講習的部分也會加進來那針對有肇事記錄的長者他的這個實地的訓練也要加進來也就是說他真正要開車啦旁邊有人在跟他溝通 跟他做訓練這個部分也會加進來"},{"start":214.171,"end":243.133,"text":"所以你把我第四項具體要求這個獎席這塊也加上去所以這等於是這個四大這個具體的要求還有剛剛加上一個75歲降到70都是往這方向在走嘛OK那事實上應該要配套啦所以剛剛講的保障這個行人的這個安全之外事實上高嶺這個長者他有時候為什麼要開車有時候也很不得已對不對或者是一種習慣所以我們應該配套第一個應該做的事情那就讓他要"},{"start":244.093,"end":272.986,"text":"有合適或者便捷的交通的這個工具嘛對 公共移屬的工具要健全所以為什麼那些假義人上次很生氣也在要求嘉義遷軌的事情你想如果你嘉義遷軌真的是中央落實那天昨天長講的370億的工程備付趕快把遷軌蓋起來讓我們嘉義縣市的這個長輩就不用開車出門啦有這麼便捷的好不好 這個我們共同再來努力一下好不好那另外我覺得今天很好今天包括不管是"},{"start":274.595,"end":290.689,"text":"藍綠白的這個立委都很理性的提出很多建議配套提到包括這個通學區或者是人口比較密集的地方包括我們之前已經如果交通部已經做了很好的指引要這段時間我應該找縣市政府好好再溝通一下好不好是務必要落實"},{"start":291.209,"end":306.841,"text":"國土署他們有在做這樣的事情好的政策,好的政策,好的指引一定要落實好不好所以一方面我們今天提出五大具體的要求保障我們行人跟民眾的安全那一方面我們要照顧我們的長輩不是說好像叫他們以後不要開車給他們一個比較適宜、安全的大眾運輸好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1820,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時30分）請陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：今天一整個早上，大家都在問你三峽重大車禍的事情。總統和昨天的立法院大家都哀悼了，現在最重要的是要補破網，我看今天很多立委也提出了很多的方法，我建議先參考國際上一些國家怎麼做。我們現在高齡駕駛定的是75歲。部長，你知道日本是定多少歲？"],["陳部長世凱：我知道，我們現在正要做改革的方案，我們的改革方案就會參考日本，並且學習日本，他們是70歲就開始。"],["張委員啓楷：日本是70歲嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["張委員啓楷：南韓更低，南韓是65歲以上每3年就換照一次。70歲看起來是最多的，美國加州也是70歲，英國也是70歲。"],["陳部長世凱：也有一些國家是80歲跟85歲。"],["張委員啓楷：不過看起來70歲應該是目前最理想的標準，所以交通部也會往70歲來改革。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒有錯，這個是我們改革的方向。"],["張委員啓楷：好，今天我具體地做幾個建議，就是把75歲降到70歲之外，第一個，駕照的有效年限本來是3年，對不對？我們是不是把年限降為2年？這樣可以早期發現，而且排除一些狀況，例如說有失智的狀況，或者影響駕駛安全的因素，改革也是往這個方向走嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：可以分年齡的級距，例如說，70歲到75歲是一個級距，75歲以上到80歲可能是一個級距，我們用年齡的級距討論它的頻率，這個我們會討論。"],["張委員啓楷：這個規劃不錯。好，OK。反正至少本來的3年要稍微縮減就對了？"],["陳部長世凱：是，是。"],["張委員啓楷：OK。用級距來做。","另外一個是我特別提出來的，就是不是只有局限第一次滿75歲的，我們要針對65歲以上曾經發生過重大交通違規或事故的駕駛人，是不是應該對65歲以上有這些問題的人，強制要求他接受醫療跟認知的檢測？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，有重大違規的部分，我們都有關懷機制，所謂關懷機制，其實有點類似委員所說的這些，我們的關懷機制會去針對65歲以上有特殊肇事或特殊違規的部分進行。"],["張委員啓楷：所以就是對65歲以上的開始要做了，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["張委員啓楷：OK。好。另外一個我具體的要求，就是強化認知功能測驗之外，我們要加上路考。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["張委員啓楷：不要只是紙上的測驗，就是實際的駕駛技術測驗，強化實際駕駛能力的評估，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，除了認知測驗之外，我們現在有加了危險感知測驗，所謂危險感知，就是他遇到危險狀況的反應能力跟對危險的理解，危險感知也會加進來，還有就是他四肢的靈活度，這個部分我們也會加進來。再來是交通安全講習的部分也會加進來，然後針對有肇事紀錄的長者，實地的訓練也要加進來。也就是說，他真正要開車，旁邊有人跟他溝通，跟他做訓練，這個部分也會加進來。"],["張委員啓楷：好，很好，所以你把我提的第四項具體要求講習這一塊也加進去。"],["陳部長世凱：我們都有加進來。"],["張委員啓楷：所以就等於這四大具體要求都有加進來，再加上一個，75歲降到70歲，都是往這個方向在走嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["張委員啓楷：OK。事實上應該要配套，除了剛剛講的保障行人的安全之外，事實上高齡長者有時候為什麼要開車？有時候很不得已，對不對？或者是一種習慣，所以我們應該配套，第一個應該做的事情，就是讓他們有合適或便捷的交通工具。"],["陳部長世凱：對，公共運輸要健全。"],["張委員啓楷：對，為什麼很多嘉義人上次很生氣，也在要求嘉義建設輕軌的事情？你想，如果嘉義有輕軌，真的是中央落實那天卓院長講的372億的工程費，趕快把輕軌蓋起來，有這麼便捷的交通工具，那我們嘉義縣市的長輩就不用開車出門了，好不好？這個我們共同再來努力一下，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，我覺得今天很好，不管是藍、綠、白的立委，都很理性地提出很多建議配套，包括通學區或人口比較密集的地方。如果交通部已經做了很好的指引，這段時間應該找縣市政府好好再溝通一下，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["張委員啓楷：務必要落實。"],["陳部長世凱：國土署有在做這樣的事。"],["張委員啓楷：對，對。好的政策、好的指引一定要落實，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["張委員啓楷：所以我今天提出五大具體要求，一方面要保障行人跟民眾的安全，另一方面我們要照顧我們的長輩，不是說好像就是叫他們以後不要開車，而是給他們一個比較舒適、安全的大眾運輸。"],["陳部長世凱：是，協助他們安全駕駛。"],["張委員啓楷：對。謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席（陳委員雪生代）：好，謝謝張啓楷委員。","下一位請王美惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-12","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","黃健豪","何欣純","蔡其昌","徐富癸","邱若華","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 我們有請江部長請陳部長"},{"start":21.936,"end":38.695,"text":"委員好部長我們有默契 你就知道我要找你喔是是是不然你如果找我今天來找你你會問什麼事情 你也要清澈啦是是部長 我們的鐵路是台中人外出讀書 工作 返家甚至就醫最主要的交通工具是"},{"start":39.415,"end":59.402,"text":"但是這幾天台東的連外鐵路卻接連發生狀況造成南北鐵路分別中斷首先我要跟台鐵及第一線人員辛苦表達感謝在我們今天早上清晨北回線河仁至崇德之間的鐵路已經搶通東正線可以恢復單線雙向通車"},{"start":64.784,"end":83.906,"text":"那不過之前我們看到5月16號下午5點南回鐵路訪山到家路車站的這個電車線端落那大武站到訪寮站大批乘客只能透過遊覽車接駁5月18號星期四下午北回鐵路"},{"start":84.887,"end":110.4,"text":"河仁跟崇德之間發生的土石流造成台東往北方向的鐵路中斷原本台東的連外鐵路就是說三天內等兩倍那昨天下午呢然後在搶修過程裡面又遇到了強降雨然後再次的在這個河仁至崇德之間發生土石流淹沒了東西的這個東西陣線等於五天斷三次"},{"start":111.34,"end":133.942,"text":"那本席再次強調我們很感謝台鐵跟地線人員的辛勞才能夠在今天清晨恢復這個北回線的這個單向雙向通車不過我想要請部長你設身處地的想想如果您是台中人只要每到大雨就可能會中斷的鐵路你會安心 你會搭得安心嗎"},{"start":135.831,"end":149.75,"text":"而且部長你也知道了部長我們上個禮拜台東舉辦一個很大的音樂會叫動浪音樂嘉年華那一天湧進非常非常多的遊客那如果16號跟18號的這兩件事情發生在同一天"},{"start":150.931,"end":175.487,"text":"那台東就會變成孤島直接回去這樣那這樣的極端狀況其實並不是沒有發生過其實像我還記得當年穆拉克的時候本席在大武相公所擔任越顧人員我記得那時候南北鐵路中斷甚至連公路都中斷我們一度只能靠空投物資再撐下去那一直堅持到道路搶通因為這樣子本席到我們立法院來其實"},{"start":176.408,"end":192.629,"text":"不斷的跟中央爭取兩件事情第一就是東部人的鐵路平權這件事情第二就是花東快速道路的興建因為我們東部人愛的很簡單的就是一條安全平安回家的道路那很遺憾我們政府每次都是遇到的狀況才開始喊口號"},{"start":193.49,"end":218.115,"text":"那對於這幾天的事故本市第一時間立刻請台鐵來協助加派這個加班車還有啟動我們攻略接駁那昨天我們也跟台鐵跟交通部來開會針對我們陸海空的這個運距聯邦機制來進行這個檢討我們務必在最短的時間讓我們這個替代的運距到位對我們這旅客的這個衝擊降到最低那"},{"start":221.294,"end":249.521,"text":"不過這個事情之後再次凸顯出我們東部交通的脆弱性那很多台東人都會問說為什麼我們復旦跟西部一樣高的這個高額的台北票價卻要承受這種三天斷兩次的這種風險尤其對於台北廠票價西部還有戈堤 還有戈壽公路 還有K文它有替代的方式台東沒有其他的選擇我們只有這一條鐵公路"},{"start":250.541,"end":273.495,"text":"那是不是這個是中央要逼迫東部人接受這樣的結果那在這邊我要具體的請部長來回答針對你之前答應本席會在五月底提出這個花東專屬優惠票價是不是會有新的方案而不是過去那個一趴兩趴的回饋機制那目前的優惠票價部長是不是可以來說明一下好 報告委員"},{"start":275.182,"end":282.839,"text":"您在台東也是從出生到現在,您應該很清楚從過去到現在台東的票價都跟西部是一樣的"},{"start":284.258,"end":306.879,"text":"所以我們現在要啟動的是第一次史上第一次台東人會有優惠的票價過去台東人沒有這樣子的優惠票價那我們也清楚的知道說0403的地震之後確實整個交通路網的脆弱度確實是有造成所以我們也第一次史上第一次要讓台東人跟花蓮的鄉親都有更便宜的票價"},{"start":307.6,"end":335.429,"text":"那這個票價目前台鐵正在研議當中他們在這個月的月底或者是六月初就一定會提出具體的方案也跟委員報告不會是一趴兩趴的這種這麼少 不會這麼少提醒一下部長 部長其實為什麼我這時候再次追問是因為部長因為現在的時間點已經距離五月底其實也很快那我們的車票預購其實在二十八天前就可以預購如果你票價沒有出來這些會直接影響到所以這部分是請教部長我們來加快"},{"start":338.009,"end":365.68,"text":"主席我再給我一點點的時間最後我要跟部長來爭取交通跟觀光是一體的去年年四零三我們東部地震造成觀光重創後來本席也在立法院強力的爭取希望比照花蓮一樣就是將我們振興補助方案納入後來成功的爭取到補助加碼的部分現在台東的"},{"start":367.12,"end":382.64,"text":"觀光旅順業最仰賴目前就是我們暑期暑假這個檔期不過我們現在面臨兩個問題第一就是我們提到的這個目前遇到的北回鐵路的不穩定第二是未來台幣升值之後會不會造成出國"},{"start":384.042,"end":407.215,"text":"出國熱門然後排擠到我們國旅的市場像我們從這次端午連假觀光署公布的這個資料可以看到只有澎湖苗栗跟連江縣有住宿超過六成其他地方都沒有所以本市這邊要求觀光署是不是可以針對我們東部的災情狀況提出演繹的這個振興旅遊方案請部長回答"},{"start":407.635,"end":435.381,"text":"報告委員我們可能會用其他的方式啦例如說我們用活動的方式去引客那當然交通的建置是最重要的交通的建置要讓它穩定旅客才會比較願意來這個部分我們也會努力那觀光的部分我們想辦法再多用一些活動來促進東部的觀光部長這個都即刻都遇到的問題那台東的產業其實很單純農業跟觀光也希望部裡面這邊來協助我們台東在產業以及交通上的這些改善好我們來努力謝謝部長謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1802,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（12時23分）謝謝主席，我們有請交通部部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，我們有默契，你就知道我要找你。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，我今天找你有什麼事，你也很清楚。鐵路是臺東人外出、讀書、工作、返家，甚至就醫最主要的交通工具，但是這幾天臺東的連外鐵路卻接連發生狀況，造成南北鐵路分別中斷。首先我要跟臺鐵及第一線人員的辛苦表達感謝，在今天早上清晨，北迴線和仁至崇德之間的鐵路已經搶通東正線，可以恢復單線雙向通車。不過之前我們看到5月16日下午5點，南迴鐵路枋山到加祿車站的電車線斷落，大武站到枋寮站大批乘客只能透過遊覽車接駁。5月18日星期四下午，北迴鐵路和仁跟崇德之間發生的土石流，造成臺東往北方向的鐵路中斷，原本臺東的連外鐵路就是三天內斷兩次。昨天下午在搶修的過程裡面又遇到強降雨，然後再一次在和仁與崇德之間發生土石流，淹沒了東西正線，等於五天斷三次。本席再一次強調，我們很感謝臺鐵跟第一線人員的辛勞，才能夠在今天清晨恢復北迴線的單線雙向通車，不過我想要請部長你設身處地想想，如果你是臺東人，只要每到大雨就可能會中斷的鐵路，你會搭得安心嗎？尤其部長也知道，上個禮拜臺東舉辦一個很大的音樂會，叫東浪音樂嘉年華，那一天湧進非常非常多遊客，如果16日跟18日這兩件事情發生在同一天，臺東就會變成孤島，路直接斷掉，這樣的狀況其實並不是沒有發生過。事實上我還記得當年莫拉克風災的時候，本席在大武鄉公所擔任約僱人員，我記得那時候南北鐵路中斷，甚至連公路都中斷，我們一度只能靠空投物資在撐，一直堅持到道路搶通。因為這樣子，本席到立法院來，不斷地跟中央爭取兩件事情，第一個就是東部人的鐵路平權這件事情；第二個就是花東快速道路的興建。我們東部人要的很簡單，就是一條安全、平安回家的道路，很遺憾，我們政府每次都是遇到了狀況才開始喊口號。對於這幾天的事故，本席第一時間立刻請臺鐵來協助加派加班車，還有啟動公路的接駁。昨天我們也跟臺鐵、跟交通部開會，針對我們陸海空的運具聯防機制進行檢討，我們務必在最短的時間讓替代的運具到位，對旅客的衝擊降到最低。這個事情之後，再次凸顯出我們東部交通的脆弱性，很多臺東人都會問說：為什麼我們負擔跟西部一樣高額的臺鐵票價，卻要承受這種鐵路三天斷兩次的風險？尤其對於臺鐵漲票價，西部還有高鐵，還有高速公路，還有客運，有替代的方式，而臺東沒有其他的選擇，我們只有這一條鐵路，是不是中央要逼迫東部人接受這樣的結果？在這邊，我要具體地請部長回答，針對你之前答應本席會在5月底提出花東專屬優惠票價，是不是會有新的方案，而不是過去那個1%、2%的回饋機制？目前的優惠票價，部長是不是可以說明一下？"],["陳部長世凱：好。報告委員，您在臺東也是從出生到現在，您應該很清楚，從過去到現在，臺東的票價都跟西部是一樣的，我們現在要啟動的是史上第一次臺東人會有優惠票價，過去臺東人沒有這樣子的優惠票價。我們也清楚地知道，0403的地震之後，確實造成整個交通路網的脆弱度，所以我們也是史上第一次要讓臺東人跟花蓮的鄉親都有更便宜的票價。這個票價目前臺鐵正在研議當中，他們在這個月的月底，或者是6月初，就一定會提出具體的方案，也跟委員報告，不會是1%、2%這麼少。"],["黃委員建賓：提醒一下部長，部長，為什麼我會在這個時候再一次追問？是因為現在的時間點距離5月底其實也很快，我們的車票其實在28天前就可以預購，如果票價沒有出來，會直接影響到預購，所以這個部分是請交通部再加快一點？"],["陳部長世凱：我們來加快，我們加快。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝。主席，再給我一點點的時間。最後我要跟部長來爭取，交通跟觀光是一體的，去年0403東部地震造成觀光重創，後來本席也在立法院強力地爭取，希望比照花蓮，將我們納入振興補助方案的範圍，後來我們也成功爭取到補助加碼。現在臺東的觀光旅宿業最仰賴的就是暑假檔期，不過我們現在面臨兩個問題，第一個就是我們提到的，目前遇到北迴鐵路的不穩定。第二個是未來臺幣升值之後，會不會造成出國旅遊熱門，然後排擠到我們國旅的市場？從這一次端午連假觀光署公布的資料就可以看到，只有澎湖、苗栗跟連江縣住宿有超過六成，其他地方都沒有，所以本席要求觀光署，是不是可以針對東部的災情狀況，提出研議的振興旅遊方案？請部長回答。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我們可能會用其他的方式，例如說，我們用活動的方式去引客，那當然交通的建置是最重要的，交通的建置要穩定，旅客才會比較願意來，這個部分我們也會努力。觀光的部分，我們想辦法再多用一些活動促進東部的觀光。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，這個都是即刻遇到的問題。那臺東的產業其實很單純，就是農業跟觀光，也希望部裡面協助我們臺東在產業及交通上的改善。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我們來努力。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們請張啓楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-12","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","黃健豪","何欣純","蔡其昌","徐富癸","邱若華","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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感謝周委喔 妳要先請我們那個 何安慧主委好 有請沈主委"},{"start":17.584,"end":44.286,"text":"主委午安辛苦了我想我們非核家園不到五天就有政黨急推重啟核電廠的公投而且這個公投提案的主文如同我昨天所說的明明是重啟他故意寫成繼續運轉用一個灰色地帶讓大家感覺到他只是演繹那主委確定這應該是重啟不是演繹嗎沒錯吧"},{"start":46.698,"end":49.521,"text":"法規是寫在繼續運轉,事實上它的語譽上是要繼續運轉20年"},{"start":66.066,"end":85.734,"text":"對 但是概念上河山廠已經現在講的是河山廠已經停止了嘛所以原意是說是在繼續運轉的情況下事前五年為什麼就提出申請那它已經是在非核家園之後要繼續運轉概念上就是重啟嘛這樣有錯嗎"},{"start":96.577,"end":109.543,"text":"因為我之前也一直問何安慧你們有沒有在關注俄烏戰爭的經驗中何設是容易成為戰爭中的攻擊目標那根據我自己看到的還有你們給我的資料"},{"start":110.163,"end":131.209,"text":"那俄乌战争之后,那其实国际原子能总署IAEA它不止一次,它去年4月就发声明说我们正危险地接近核事故,因为俄罗斯不只是攻击而且控制了欧洲最大的核电厂,在乌克兰的扎波罗勒核电厂"},{"start":132.85,"end":154.492,"text":"國際原子能總署還特別提出說武裝衝突中核電廠要有所謂的核安必須要有七大支柱場外電源供給不中斷的供應鏈輻射監測系統跟緊急應變溝通完整設施安全跟安保系統操作人員要能夠如常履行職責"},{"start":156.073,"end":181.642,"text":"然後IAEA說烏克蘭的每一項支柱都受到損害這當然就是說跟俄羅斯不顧相關的公約有關那俄羅斯會這樣做我想中共有沒有比俄羅斯友善我是一個很大的問號而且俄羅斯跟烏克蘭在陸地上是接著的那中共跟我們中間有一個台灣海峽"},{"start":183.624,"end":192.732,"text":"請問主委根據這個烏克蘭的經驗核電廠若遭遇戰爭的時候有什麼國安風險主委可以簡單告訴我們嗎"},{"start":197.955,"end":220.453,"text":"我們判斷核電廠受直接攻擊的機率不高不高是多高?10%高叫做高還是不高?應該是很低,因為國際公約也...那俄羅斯為什麼會這樣子對待烏克蘭的核電廠?如果不高的話,俄羅斯這個是百分之多少?因為烏克蘭沒有..."},{"start":222.382,"end":231.405,"text":"烏克蘭的核安做得沒有台灣好嗎?你是要這樣講嗎?要我們信任台灣的核安會嗎?不是,我想說...核安會有武裝部隊嗎?沒有嗎?就是剛剛的這七個國際原子能總署後來還去駐烏克蘭的那個場耶我們沒有辦法,我們在IAEA的地位裡面是什麼?"},{"start":247.276,"end":257.241,"text":"他說這七大1234567可以問一下福島市這七大中的哪一個出問題你們應該知道吧福島事件"},{"start":258.537,"end":265.963,"text":"跟委員報告輔導它是一個比較複雜不過就在這七個好了安全的七大支柱輔導是哪一個還是數個出問題它其實是比如說場外的電源失去對就是這個要有一個場外電源供給可以冷卻嘛那輔導事前有想過說有這種安全風險嗎它也會說不大甚至它說零對不對你說不大是多大"},{"start":285.506,"end":312.282,"text":"福島其實它在設計上它本來就有廠外電源對 設計上有了還是出問題嘛所以福島的核災就是告訴我們說你認為沒有問題的風險零的時候都可能有風險剛剛主委是說不大不大是說有對不對那我們現在在非核家園前核能佔我們的整體能源供應的百分之多少你們應該知道吧"},{"start":315.889,"end":324.376,"text":"現在是零嘛 之前是佔多少我們有必要為了這3%的能源去說全國放冒這麼大的風險嗎對不對這是一個理性的問題嘛那一旦就是說在戰爭時期如果跟烏克蘭一樣的話那請問河山廠那個輻射範圍會多少 主委可以告訴我們嗎"},{"start":344.591,"end":354.583,"text":"就如果電力要真的出了問題像福島一樣那輻射的安全範圍內會影響多少是影響到哪一個城市可不可以告訴我們"},{"start":356.394,"end":375.835,"text":"跟委員報告其實這個戰爭最大的威脅它來自於說它會攻擊核能電廠之後會造成核能廠大範圍的火災它並不會直接就導致於說會有輻射外勢依照目前國內我們在這一塊的一個應變方式我昨天還追問你們"},{"start":379.18,"end":391.647,"text":"場外電源出問題最後會怎麼樣你們告訴我說是場外電源如果失去的話依照目前國內的核電廠我們是有各種的電源那福島是不是曾經也有各種電源就是這裡面一個場外電源因為你需要外面的電源才能夠冷卻嘛福島它是一部一部它是多重的事故發生之後導致的"},{"start":405.274,"end":407.935,"text":"是 那我請教你啊你覺得中共跟俄羅斯比起來哪一個比較邪惡啊我想只要是戰爭我們都應該要避免是 那福島的事情就一個場外地緣攻擊都出問題了你可以告訴我說剛剛主委是說不大"},{"start":424.461,"end":446.226,"text":"我不知道我們的靈異警莊委聽了覺得不大是多少是我們能容忍的範圍內它是因為整個海嘯造成的所以它不是一個單一的一個場外電源失去的原因所以IEA這七項都是一個核能電廠要維持安全必要的項目的確札波羅在戰爭的狀態下這每一項都接受挑戰"},{"start":446.886,"end":453.853,"text":"每一項都被挑戰了尤其是三個外面主要的外部電源讓它冷卻的都曾經三條都中斷了對不對要不然你覺得IAEA有必要發聲明連我看到愛沙尼亞都發聲明譴責然後要求俄羅斯不能夠再不顧核安"},{"start":467.799,"end":486.223,"text":"因為這些國家都是在附近的那我們台灣呢 核安會都沒有給我們相關的訊息還要我跟你們問才有然後主委說不大我不知道不大是屬於多大那我其實就是一件事啦所謂的安全評估請把戰爭風險裡面的核安風險一起評估進去主委可以答應嗎我們就以烏克蘭俄烏戰爭作為就是說經驗值好不好"},{"start":498.855,"end":505.194,"text":"你不能想像中共會比俄羅斯友善嘛因為我們中間還有台灣海峽嘛"},{"start":507.109,"end":527.447,"text":"這方面我們就已經報告在裡面了因為我們已經要求分散式的多重水源與電源我知道你們現在都說就像福島曾經以為一切都沒問題啦你現在都有一關又一關最後還說可以人力水冷卻我都當面問過你們了我的意思是說人都有可能出問題嘛對不對"},{"start":529.589,"end":554.235,"text":"那就是你們剛剛就是避重就輕連輻射會到哪個城市都不願意告訴我們那我想這個部分對不只是屏東人高雄人連我們在場召委台南人都不能接受好不好就是因為後來你們問到連這個輻射都有可能到福建然後何安慧能跟我講說因為這樣子中共應該不會做這樣的事吧"},{"start":554.975,"end":569.905,"text":"你認為是這樣子嗎我沒有辦法接受這種不精確的答案報告給我們好不好 河安風險應該要包含最壞的狀況再來謝謝竹威請回 辛苦了我們請中研院副院長"},{"start":573.717,"end":597.003,"text":"委員好 副院長好 本來要問院長啦 但是因為院長很忙 所以就問副院長這個院士退場機制 我之前的預算就剛剛已經讓你們過關了 但是還是要追問因為就是民間 不是只有我 民間2019年你們的院士跟習近平站在一起 沒有保護香港城市大學的學生"},{"start":598.563,"end":624.633,"text":"2021年我們的院士協助中國政治打壓學生2021年我們的院士在美國涉及協助中國滲透被捕然後被調查所以我講院士一定要有不適任的在國外還有院士性騷性侵的所以我們目前已經有這種"},{"start":625.813,"end":644.903,"text":"所以問你們要怎麼處理然後呢因為你們這個我知道有一定的難度因為就是要涉及到院士所以我請你們一步一步來理解要針對五個民主國家怎麼去規範然後你們給我的報告法國 日本 義大利就兩三行就要打發我們這樣不對吧"},{"start":646.584,"end":658.989,"text":"那你們說你們是參考美國的NAS可是NAS那你們給我們的英文資料跟我看到的一樣可是你又沒有把它全文翻譯那以我跟我辦公室讀起來人家就是有一個評估委員會那當然就是說那你們宣稱分成"},{"start":662.99,"end":677.817,"text":"任職本院跟非任職本院你是說非任職本院譬如說這個在香港大學的要由那個機構去處理撤銷什麼那香港中大香港大學又不聽我們的他如果就聽習近平的那我們不就不能處理了"},{"start":678.857,"end":703.954,"text":"可不可以再次檢討那我要求很簡單30秒之內有外在威脅的民主國家譬如芬蘭他們怎麼處理這樣子的一個最高榮譽的院類似院士的制度我們可不可以找幾個讓我知道讓我們教文委員知道一下好不好因為我們的情況跟義大利法國畢竟不一樣嘛好我們會再做一些好你說要香港大學處理他又不聽你的他要處理嗎"},{"start":705.756,"end":724.189,"text":"好 對不對香港大學我們都參訪過很多老師都離開了到台灣到澳洲到英國去就是因為沒有學術言論自由了好不好好 那就多久之內可以給我三個月好嗎三個月 兩個月吧你們的研究能力這個不用三個月吧好 兩個月好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1127,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時42分）感謝召委。先請核安會主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["范委員雲：主委午安，辛苦了！我想我們非核家園不到5天，就有政黨急推重啟核電廠的公投，而且這個公投提案的主文如同我昨天所說的，明明是重啟，但它故意寫成繼續運轉，用一個灰色地帶讓大家感覺到它只是延役，主委確定這應該是重啟而不是延役沒錯吧？"],["陳主任委員明真：應該是重啟……"],["高組長斌：我跟委員說明，那個……"],["范委員雲：可以簡短回答我嗎？謝謝。"],["高組長斌：法規是寫再繼續運轉，事實上它的語意上是要就是繼續運轉20年……"],["范委員雲：對，但是概念上已經……"],["高組長斌：但是概念上應該……"],["范委員雲：核三廠已經……現在講的是核三廠，已經停止了嘛！"],["高組長斌：執照到期。"],["范委員雲：所以延役是說在繼續運轉的情況下，事前5年或什麼就提出申請，那它已經是在非核家園之後要繼續運轉，概念上就是重啟嘛，這樣有錯嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：應該是這樣。"],["范委員雲：蛤？就是重啟嘛！"],["陳主任委員明真：對。"],["范委員雲：對，所以我這邊之前也一直問核安會有沒有在關注，俄烏戰爭的經驗中，核設施容易成為戰爭中的攻擊目標，根據我自己看到的還有你們給我的資料，俄烏戰爭之後，其實國際原子能總署IAEA不只一次，它去年4月就聲明說我們正危險地接近核事故，因為俄羅斯不只是攻擊，而且控制了歐洲最大的核電廠──烏克蘭的札波羅熱核電廠，國際原子能總署還特別提出，武裝衝突中，核電廠要有所謂的核安必須要有七大支柱，場外電源供給、不中斷的供應鏈、輻射監測系統跟緊急應變、溝通、完整設施、安全跟安保系統、操作人員要能夠如常履行職責，IAEA說烏克蘭的每一項支柱都受到損害，這當然跟俄羅斯不顧相關的公約有關，俄羅斯會這樣做，我想中共有沒有比俄羅斯友善？我是一個很大的問號，而且俄羅斯跟烏克蘭在陸地上是接著的，中共跟我們中間有個臺灣海峽，請問主委，根據烏克蘭的經驗，核電廠如果遭遇戰爭的時候，有什麼國安風險？主委可以簡單告訴我們嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：我們的判斷，核電廠受直接攻擊的機率不高。"],["范委員雲：不高是多高？10%叫高還是不高？"],["陳主任委員明真：應該是很低，因為國際公約也……"],["范委員雲：那俄羅斯為什麼這樣對待烏克蘭的核電廠？如果不高的話，俄羅斯這個是百分之多少？烏克蘭的核安做得沒有臺灣好嗎？你是要這樣講嗎？要我們信任臺灣的核安會嗎？核安會有武裝部隊嗎？沒有嘛！就是剛剛的這7個，國際原子能總署後來還去駐烏克蘭的那個廠，我們沒辦法，我們在IAEA的地位是什麼？它說這七大，福島是這七大哪一個出問題？你們應該知道吧！"],["黃組長俊源：跟委員報告，福島它是一個比較複雜，不過就……"],["范委員雲：我們就這七個安全的七大支柱，福島是哪一個還是數個出問題？"],["黃組長俊源：它其實是比如場外的電源失去。"],["范委員雲：對，就是要有一個場外電源供給，可以冷卻嘛！福島事前有想過會有這種安全風險嗎？"],["黃組長俊源：其實有。"],["范委員雲：它也會說不大，甚至它說零對不對！你說不大是多大？"],["黃組長俊源：福島其實在設計上本來就有場外電源。"],["范委員雲：對，設計上有了還是出問題嘛！所以福島的核災就是告訴我們，你認為沒有問題的、風險零的都可能有風險，剛剛主委是說不大，不大是說有，對不對？我們現在非核家園前核能占我們能源供應的百分比是多少？你們應該知道吧！現在是零，之前占多少？"],["陳主任委員明真：517之前大概3%。"],["范委員雲：我們有必要為了3%的能源讓全國冒這麼大的風險嗎？這是一個理性的問題，一旦在戰爭時期，如果跟烏克蘭一樣的話，請問，核三廠輻射範圍會多少？主委可以告訴我們嗎？如果電力真的出了問題，像福島一樣，輻射的安全範圍會影響多少？是影響到哪一個城市，可不可以告訴我們？"],["黃組長俊源：其實戰爭最大的威脅來自於它攻擊核能電廠之後會造成大範圍的火災，它並不會直接就導致有輻射外洩，依照目前國內我們在這一塊的應變方式……"],["范委員雲：我昨天還追問你們場外電源出問題最後會怎麼樣，你們告訴我說……"],["黃組長俊源：場外電源如果失去的話，依照目前國內的核電廠，我們是有各種的電源。"],["范委員雲：福島是不是曾經也有各種的電源？因為你需要外面的電源才能夠冷卻，烏克蘭是不是有3個外部電源，最後都被破壞？"],["黃組長俊源：福島是多重的事故發生之後導致。"],["范委員雲：你覺得中共跟俄羅斯比起來，哪一個比較邪惡？"],["黃組長俊源：我想只要是戰爭，我們都應該要避免，核電廠遭遇戰爭的時候，我們會做好相關的因應。"],["范委員雲：就一個場外電源供給都出問題了，剛剛主委說不大，我不知道林宜瑾召委聽了覺得不大是多少，是我們能容忍的範圍內？"],["黃組長俊源：它是因為海嘯造成的，所以不是一個單一的場外電源失去，因為這七項都是核能電廠要維持安全必要的項目，的確，札波羅熱在戰爭的狀態下，每一項都接受挑戰。"],["范委員雲：每一項都被挑戰了，尤其是3個主要的外部電源，讓它冷卻的3條都中斷了，要不然你覺得IAEA有必要發聲明？我看到連愛沙尼亞都發聲明譴責，要求俄羅斯不能再不顧核安，因為這些國家都在附近，我們臺灣核安會都沒有給我們相關的訊息，還要我跟你們問才有，然後主委說不大，我不知道不大是屬於多大。其實就是一件事，所謂的安全評估請把戰爭風險裡面的核安風險一起評估進去，主委可以答應嗎？我們就以俄烏戰爭作為經驗值，好不好？你不能想像中共會比俄羅斯友善嘛！因為我們中間還有臺灣海峽。"],["陳主任委員明真：這方面已經包括在裡面了，因為我們核電廠已經要求要有分散型的多重水源與電源的確保。"],["范委員雲：我知道你們現在都這樣說，就像福島也曾經以為一切都沒問題，你現在都有一關又一關，最後還說可以人力冷卻，我都當面問過你們了，我的意思是說，人都有可能出問題，對不對！你們剛剛都是避重就輕，連輻射會到哪個城市都不願意告訴我們，我想這個部分不只是屏東人、高雄人，連我們在場召委臺南人都不能接受，好不好！因為後來問到連輻射都有可能到福建，核安會的人跟我講因為這樣所以中共應該不會做這樣的事吧！你認為是這樣子嗎？我沒有辦法接受這種不精確的答案，報告給我們好不好？核安風險應該要包含最壞的狀況，謝謝，主委請回。","再來請中研院副院長。"],["周副院長美吟：委員好。"],["范委員雲：副院長好，本來要問院長，但是院長很忙，所以就問副院長。這個院士退場機制，之前的預算剛剛已經讓你們過關了，但我還是要追問，因為這不是只有我，還有民間反應，2019年你們的院士跟習近平站在一起，沒有保護香港城市大學的學生；2021年我們的院士協助中國政治打壓學生；2021年我們的院士在美國涉及協助中國滲透被捕、被調查。所以我講院士一定要有不適任的退場機制，在國外還有院士性騷、性侵的，所以我們目前已經有這種，問你們要怎麼處理，我知道有一定的難度，因為涉及到院士，所以我請你們一步一步來理解，要針對5個民主國家怎麼去規範，你們給我的報告，法國、日本、義大利就兩、三行打發我們，這樣不對吧！你們說你們是參考美國的NAS，可是你們給我們的英文資料跟我看到的一樣，可是你又沒有把它全文翻譯，以我跟我辦公室讀起來，人家就是有一個評估委員會，然後你們宣稱分成任職本院跟非任職本院，也就是說，非任職本院例如像這個在香港大學的，要由那個機構去處理撤銷什麼，中大、香港大學又不聽我們的，它如果就聽習近平的，那我們不就不能處理了？所以可不可以再次檢討，我的要求很簡單，有外在威脅的民主國家，例如芬蘭，它們怎麼處理這樣最高榮譽類似的院士制度，我們可不可以找幾個讓我們教文委員會知道一下？好不好！因為我們的情況跟義大利、法國畢竟不一樣。"],["周副院長美吟：好，我們會再做一些研究。"],["范委員雲：你說要香港大學處理，它又不聽你的，它要處理嗎？香港大學我們都參訪過，很多老師都離開了，到臺灣、到澳洲、到英國去，就是因為沒有學術、言論自由了。多久時間可以給我？"],["曾處長國祥：3個月好不好？"],["范委員雲：3個月？2個月吧！你們的研究能力不用3個月吧！2個月，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，所有的官員請回。剛剛范雲委員提到兩個報告，一個是有關於核安、國安的相關報告，還有中研院要如何規範最高榮譽人員的制度，這是2個月，這個報告除了送給范雲委員，也一併送教文委員會，謝謝。","請何欣純、何欣純，何欣純委員不在。","請羅明才、羅明才，羅明才委員不在。","請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","請蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，另外有林沛祥委員提出書面質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-12","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","謝龍介","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","吳沛憶","鍾佳濱","萬美玲","范雲","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","林沛祥"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案6案；二、處理\n114年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案9案；三、處理114年\n度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院單位預算解凍案1案","agenda_id":"1145101_00009"}}},{"id":"161746","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161746","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7dbfbbb2816c0f27c4056f20d851a8422b725d7a793ed122532e6c27912765eb29c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:36:49 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我們請次長"},{"start":18.486,"end":34.139,"text":"今天有幾個問題就是跟市長這邊討論因為暑假快到了那我們知道說現在孩子幾乎人手一機手機上面這個資訊來自四面八方我想請教就是說"},{"start":35.7,"end":56.705,"text":"關於孩子的這個問題就是說我們在這幾年看到這個有關這個靈病跟梅毒的這個通報數在台灣所有的法定傳染病中排名前五名那我們也看到就是說疾管署在這幾年他有做一個數據的分析就是15歲到19歲男性靈病發生率在五年間增"},{"start":58.065,"end":77.272,"text":"這個增加了差不多將近三倍那15歲到19歲女性沒讀發生率在所有年齡層當中是第二高的那我想請教就是說這個性病不只是醫療的問題其實我覺得這個也要從台灣的性教育著手"},{"start":78.132,"end":106.173,"text":"那我想次長你也是這個婦科這個婦產科的醫師那也在第一線這個職業過那我想請教就是說類似這樣的一個問題我們未來在這個衛福部要怎麼做或者是說衛福部跟其他的這個部會譬如說跟教育部要怎麼來協助讓這樣子的一個狀況能夠逐年這個傳染病能夠逐年降低"},{"start":106.573,"end":122.937,"text":"好謝謝委員關心喔因為性傳染病事實上我們都不斷強調性傳染病他很重要的第一個最關鍵就是安全的性行為好所以去在不論是教育部這邊對於性教育的部分後衛福部這邊我們不斷的有宣導安全性行為以及"},{"start":123.617,"end":148.323,"text":"應該要有的這一些防護的部分以及尊重對方的身體自主權這個部分我們持續都會再來繼續來推動那這一段時間的通報上升裡面在全球其實都有發現就是在COVID疫情之後有梅毒跟靈病疫情上升的現象那有一些分析認為說可能是因為疫情期間大家沒有去比較不敢去看診所以疫情之後這一個診斷才被發現"},{"start":150.643,"end":174.931,"text":"那再来的话就是说疫情趋缓之后那个相关人跟人之间的活动就变得比较多一点所以这些就医行为让通报事件出现那当然我们现在的资料里面在今年1到4月我们在15到19岁的临病通报的数字已经比去年下降了三成但是当然我们持续会来做这样子的一个传染病防治以及我们讲的安全性行为的一个宣导"},{"start":176.171,"end":203.212,"text":"长期以来我们在性的性传染病的防治的部分其实过去在门诊不论是在泌尿科妇产科加医科世上结管署这边都有一些案子就是说我们也请医师这边他假设有比方说他是膀胱炎或者他某些疾病可是他强烈怀疑这可能跟性传染病有关那我们是有这样子的方案请他们能够更敏感的来做这样的检验及早能够诊断出可能的性传染病是"},{"start":204.213,"end":226.434,"text":"其實在我們那個年代其實要教這個可能一些這個有關什麼樣的這個知識那可能都會透過有時候老師他不會直接鳴講那像現在的話我覺得可能在課堂上老師要鳴講可能也會有點困難那有的青少年他可能就透過這個網路"},{"start":228.195,"end":236.667,"text":"自己去探索所以我在這邊就是一方面也希望就是說未來這個衛福部跟這個教育部這邊應該針對這部分應該要應該還要再加強因為這樣的一個知識"},{"start":243.496,"end":257.801,"text":"也許從家庭也許是從這個教育從學校端這樣得知可是我們看到就是說現在網路世界真的是花花世界這個來自很多的這個資訊或者是這個交友軟體"},{"start":259.301,"end":286.153,"text":"那很多青少年他可能會想要去嘗試所以我們希望就是說衛福部針對這部分不論是你們自己去協助這個學校或者是醫院遇到這樣的事情是不是也要通報那減少我們這樣子的一個這個傳染病逐年這樣增加其實我看到這個我我也覺得說這個也許是跟現在的這個"},{"start":287.413,"end":309.347,"text":"交友這個交友軟體其實也是很方便也許也是主要的原因之一所以我們希望就是說衛福部跟教育部針對這部分應該還要再來加強是謝謝委員在性傳染病的部分因為這個是我們有要求要通報的性傳染病所以如果是確診沒讀或臨病是本來醫事機構就要向我們通報他是列管"},{"start":309.927,"end":336.423,"text":"那在如果是未成年的孩子他如果是相關有懷疑就是說他可能是有在兒少權法被剝削或者是性剝削的部分的話那那個部分其實我們的通報其實就是來往後端去給相關的這個社會局或者是社會服務的部分來給他協助另外一個部分也是來協助就是說假設他本身是有性侵家暴等等在社政上面來做一些協助那不過"},{"start":337.423,"end":359.483,"text":"委員所關心的通報的部分我們也要很謹慎處理因為長期以來擔心的事情就是說假設這些年輕的個案來到臨床那醫師診斷後的通報程序如果是很明就是有發現就一定要怎麼樣通報而且是到學校第一個部分是擔心對孩子的隱私造成影響第二個部分也擔心孩子會因為這個原因就即會就診"},{"start":360.123,"end":379.475,"text":"那他如果有機會就診當然對於他的傳染病的診察或者傳染病的治療是更不好所以這個部分我們會謹慎來處理那我想請教就是說我們現在在那個艾滋上面有一個完善的追蹤機制那有沒有可能就是針對這一部分也是類似用這樣的一個追蹤機制來做"},{"start":381.996,"end":402.166,"text":"這個其實就是在法定傳染病的限定裡面不過因為這三個它都是法定傳染病所以就像剛剛提到一個事情是我們在原來的這個法定傳染病的通報事項裡面它本來就要通報過去然後通報完之後主管機關或者是我們的機構這邊要去對於個案後續有沒有治療跟追要去做相關的追蹤"},{"start":403.186,"end":418.415,"text":"那但是就是說在法律裡面目前我們應該是沒有要求說要對他的梅毒跟靈病的性伴侶這邊再去做就是後續的處理但不過我們在臨床上會鼓勵啦因為臨床上也知道說這樣子的個案他"},{"start":420.276,"end":438.931,"text":"這個性傳染病他一定是從他性伴侶來的所以也會鼓勵或者是要求就是說提醒這一個個案他要能夠提醒他的性伴侶再來後續做追蹤檢查比方說我們之前假設是病人他我們的病人發現有靈病那我們會跟他說我們要通報但是我們也請他下次把他的先生帶來"},{"start":441.493,"end":457.029,"text":"其實我覺得這個問題不只是說這個後端就是醫療治療這個疾病其實應該是也要在前端可能就是從社政或教育我剛剛講的這個教育方面我覺得應該也要去配合"},{"start":457.95,"end":472.848,"text":"正確的這個交友或者是正確的這個性行為我覺得這應該也是要從教育上面去去做另外我剛剛這個從小上就是很多委員在關心就是凱凱案然後有關這個外聘督導的事情"},{"start":473.328,"end":498.24,"text":"其實我覺得說就像月勤委員他長期他就是在社福這個區塊那有關兒少他就是一個督導我那天還特別問說其實如果在第一線的人或者是在縣市他沒有沒有講出來的話其實外聘督導他根本不會知道所以如果說要把這個責任怪罪於外聘督導其實我是覺得"},{"start":498.94,"end":523.201,"text":"那是非常不合理的啦所以在相關的制度內部他應該要有一定程度的防範跟這個糾錯那外聘的督導其實角色事實上是給在制度內的社工或者是訪視員在他的專業職能上的提升以及他後續他如果有需要的話由這個外聘的督導來給他們在制度上面行政上面跟服務上面更好的一些建議"},{"start":524.562,"end":549.977,"text":"那市長我今天最主要是因為暑假快到了暑假到其實這個所有的青少年放假其實很我們希望就是說結合教育部然後結合我們衛福部其實有很多事情需要做尤其是在暑假期間所以或者是說一些安全或者是其實我希望說你們能夠再加強那讓這樣的一個傳染病能夠逐年降低"},{"start":550.077,"end":560.689,"text":"我想我們會提醒包含疾管署跟國健署在這段期間尤其暑假到了再做一些宣導讓大家能夠重視到這個傳染病防治跟安全性行為的重要性謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1063,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（12時37分）謝謝主席，我們請次長。"],["主席：次長請。"],["林次長靜儀：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：次長好。今天有幾個問題跟次長討論，因為暑假快到了，我們知道現在的孩子幾乎人手一機，手機上面的資訊來自四面八方。我想請教關於孩子的問題，就是我們在這幾年看到有關淋病跟梅毒的通報數，在臺灣所有的法定傳染病中排名前五名。我們也看到疾管署在這幾年有做一個數據的分析，就是15歲到19歲男性淋病發生率在五年間增加了將近三倍；15歲到19歲女性梅毒發生率，在所有年齡層當中是第二高的。","我想請教的是，性病不只是醫療的問題，其實我覺得這也要從臺灣的性教育著手。次長是婦產科的醫師，也在第一線執業過，我想請教的是類似這樣的一個問題，未來衛福部要怎麼做？或者是說衛福部跟其他部會，譬如說跟教育部要怎麼來協助，讓這樣子的一個狀況、讓這個傳染病能夠逐年降低？"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員關心。關於性傳染病，事實上我們都不斷強調，性傳染病很重要的第一個關鍵就是安全的性行為，所以不論是教育部對於性教育的部分，還有衛福部不斷的宣導安全性行為與應該要有的一些防護以及尊重對方的身體自主權這個部分，我們持續都會再繼續推動。","關於這一段時間的通報上升部分，在全球其實都有發現在COVID疫情之後，有梅毒跟淋病疫情上升的現象。有一些分析認為可能是因為疫情期間，大家比較不敢去看診，所以疫情之後這一個診斷才被發現；再來的話就是疫情趨緩之後，人跟人之間的活動就變得比較多一點，所以這些就醫行為讓通報事件出現。當然我們現在的資料裡面，今年1到4月，15到19歲的淋病通報數字已經比去年下降了三成，我們會持續來做這樣的傳染病防治，以及我們講的安全性行為的宣導。","長期以來我們在性傳染病的防治部分，其實過去在門診，不論是在泌尿科、婦產科、家醫科，事實上疾管署都有一些案子，就是說我們也請醫師這邊，比方說他是膀胱炎或者是某些疾病，可是他強烈懷疑這可能跟性傳染病有關，我們有這樣子的方案，請他們能夠更敏感的來做這樣的檢驗，能夠及早診斷出可能的性傳染病。"],["黃委員秀芳：其實在我們那個年代要教這些有關的知識，有時候老師不會直接明講；現在的話，我覺得在課堂上老師要明講，可能也會有點困難，有的青少年可能透過網路自己去探索。所以我在這邊一方面也希望未來衛福部跟教育部，針對這部分應該還要再加強，因為這樣的知識也許從家庭，也許是從教育的學校端得知。我們看到現在的網路世界真的是花花世界，有很多的資訊或者是交友軟體，很多青少年可能會想去嘗試，所以我們希望衛福部針對這部分，不論是你們自己去協助學校或者是醫院，遇到這樣的事情是不是也要通報，減少這樣的性傳染病逐年增加。其實我看到這個會覺得，這個也許跟現在的交友軟體很方便有關，也許是主要的原因之一，所以我們希望衛福部跟教育部針對這部分，應該還要再加強。"],["林次長靜儀：是，謝謝委員。在性傳染病的部分，因為這個是我們有要求要通報的性傳染病，所以如果是確診梅毒或淋病，是本來醫事機構就要向我們通報，因為它是列管。如果是未成年的孩子，他如果懷疑可能有兒少權法被剝削，或者是性剝削的部分，那個部分其實我們的通報就是往後端，給相關的社會局或者是社會服務的部分來協助他。另外一個部分也是來協助，就是說假設他本身是有性侵、家暴等等，在社政上面來做一些協助。","不過委員所關心的通報部分，我們也要很謹慎處理，因為長期以來擔心的事情就是，假設這些年輕的個案來到臨床，那醫師診斷後的通報程序就是有發現就一定要怎麼樣通報，而且是到學校，第一個部分是擔心對孩子的隱私造成影響，第二個部分也擔心孩子會因為這個原因就忌諱就診。那他如果忌諱就診，當然對於他的傳染病的診察或者傳染病的治療是更不好，所以這個部分我們會謹慎處理。"],["黃委員秀芳：對。我想請教的就是，我們現在在愛滋上面有一個完善的追蹤機制，那有沒有可能針對這一部分，也是類似用這樣的一個追蹤機制來做？"],["林次長靜儀：這個其實就是在法定傳染病的限定裡面，不過因為這三個都是法定傳染病，所以就像剛剛提到的一個事情是，我們在原來的這個法定傳染病的通報事項裡面，他本來就要通報過去，然後通報完之後，主管機關或者是我們的機構這邊要去對於個案後續有沒有治療跟追蹤做相關的追蹤；但是在法律層面，目前我們應該是沒有要求要對梅毒跟淋病的性伴侶再去做後續的處理。不過我們在臨床上會鼓勵，因為臨床上也知道這樣的個案，這個性傳染病一定是從性伴侶來的，所以也會鼓勵或者是要求、提醒這個個案，他要能夠提醒他的性伴侶，後續再來做追蹤偵查。比方說假設我們的病人發現有淋病，那我們會跟他說我們要通報，但是我們也請他下次把他的先生帶來。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。我覺得這個問題不只是後端的醫療、治療這個疾病，其實應該也要在前端，可能就是從社政或教育，就是我剛剛講的教育方面，我覺得應該也要去配合，不論是正確的交友或者是正確的性行為，我覺得這個應該也是要從教育上面去做。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外，從早上就有很多委員在關心剴剴案，有關外聘督導的事情，其實我覺得就像月琴委員，他長期在社福這個區塊、有關兒少，他就是一個督導。我那天還特別問，如果在第一線的人或者是在縣市沒有講出來的話，其實外聘督導根本不會知道。所以如果要把這個責任怪罪於外聘督導，其實我是覺得那是非常不合理的。"],["林次長靜儀：所以在相關的制度內部，他應該要有一定程度的防範跟糾錯。其實外聘督導的角色，事實上是給在制度內的社工或者是訪視員，在他的專業職能上的提升，以及後續他如果有需要的話，由這個外聘的督導來給他們在制度上面、行政上面跟服務上面更好的一些建議。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。次長，我今天最主要是因為暑假快到了，暑假到所有的青少年放假，我們希望結合教育部、結合衛福部，其實有很多事情需要做，尤其是在暑假期間。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：其實我希望你們能夠再加強，讓這樣的一個傳染病能夠逐年降低。"],["林次長靜儀：我想我們會提醒疾管署跟國健署，在這段期間，尤其暑假到了，再做一些宣導，讓大家能夠重視傳染病防治跟安全性行為的重要性。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員，謝謝次長。","接續我們請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":138,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-12","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","徐巧芯","盧縣一","黃國昌","劉建國","涂權吉","林淑芬","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","黃秀芳","洪孟楷","張啓楷","范雲","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","楊曜","賴惠員","葉元之","王育敏","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃捷"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145201_00002"}}},{"id":"161744","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161744","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7dbf13ce9f742c50602cdb65d50a7385bb625d7a793ed1225321c587096f49c00dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"12:27:39 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不合理因為他本來在內部就應該有內部的制度好但是我們現在看到不管是從這個地方台北市政府或者是他的應該要扛起的責任或者是台北市議員不斷的在透過媒體在潑髒水的同時啊我現在就要問了台北市政府的社會局訪視的過程"},{"start":316.377,"end":338.587,"text":"好那麼2023年的5月16號他訪視然後再來到了我剛講了9月1號凱開才進入到流行保姆的家中而台北市政府的社會局訪視就僅有這麼一次是9月26號那麼對於所謂的這個訪視的次數是不是非常的不夠"},{"start":339.787,"end":366.138,"text":"以凱凱案來講因為他也是 包含他是初養童而且他是跨縣市之間做了這樣的轉介所以其實如果訪視我們當然希望說他的這個訪視輔導員可以更高的敏感度去加強或者是在這個訪視過程中針對個案有比較敏感的部分去做一些處理好 所以回到問題的本體喔真正應該要監督機制是不是應該由地方政府要扛起權責"},{"start":367.962,"end":397.328,"text":"我們當然站在衛福部的立場是希望在制度跟所有整個制度的運作以及相關法規裡面來給予地方政府在相關的這個運作上面更多的支持但是我們也希望地方政府在他的權限之內能夠好好來落實他應該要有的這些服務所以早上我聽到黃國昌委員他說外部督導其實沒有負責監督而是加強社工教育的意義那給予這個外部的資源的一個支持但他也說了"},{"start":398.148,"end":421.147,"text":"這個台北市政府是不能免責的對吧我想委員們可能都對於督導兩個字認為有督可是他們其實比較多的這個在外尤其是外督的角色裡面主要是導跟協助接下來我看到這是另外一個問題喔這個由台北市政府的社會局那麼他們等於外託給這個文山居託中心"},{"start":422.108,"end":450.918,"text":"然後之後呢在委託大愛關懷協會而且他是限制性的招標那限制性的招標裡頭呢包含了評審的委員當中有三位就是來自台北市政府的社會局那如果以剛剛以凱開的個案這中間他們只有在9月26號去探訪一次去視察一次這個社會局台北市政府社會局要不要扛起責任"},{"start":451.923,"end":474.509,"text":"我想社會局在這個角色裡面他們也清楚知道個案的流向以及他所委託的這個服務所以我們當然在問服務後來我們在去年也有針對這樣子的特殊個案有要求說他們應該要有一個訪視的指引那把這個部分補強起來我們當然希望地方政府尤其是這個本來就是他其實在參與在他的委員裡面的話他應該清楚的要知道好"},{"start":475.149,"end":501.207,"text":"那我再重複一次凱開案其實是我跟月勤委員從頭到尾關心的在去年的9月3號的時候我們成功的把他的主管機關從教育部直接改例到我們的衛福部的身上那我也是跟月勤委員兩度去旁聽包含準備庭包含審理庭關於凱開案的部分所以現在我看到的是"},{"start":502.738,"end":518.49,"text":"藍白啊在一昧的在往林月琴委員身上這個外部督導給予指引的這樣子的一個外部他們看到督導兩個字整個都嗨起來了我覺得是非常非常的不公平再次強調2023年的12月24號的平安夜凱凱離開了不到兩歲最後他"},{"start":525.595,"end":543.193,"text":"被媒體揭露是在3月11號3月18號的就在這個委員會當中所有的國民黨的委員在戶一個人那個人叫昭偉那個人就叫做王玉敏當時他還是兒福聯盟的董事他沒有利益迴避這件事情我相信大家應該記憶猶新"},{"start":544.815,"end":557.578,"text":"所以不要再潑髒水到真正在關心兒少而且真正在關心凱凱案的真的親力親為的委員身上把外部督導形容成變成是殺凱凱的兇手這個對於我們來講是多大的一個侮辱我再次的強調"},{"start":563.3,"end":590.22,"text":"台北市政府還有新北市政府兒扶聯盟有絕大的責任因為這個孩子最後得到兒扶聯盟只有一個500塊錢的冰冷濕帶所以如果大家還要繼續再潑髒水其實真的大可不必再次謝謝次長謝謝委員持續的關心我們針對這樣子的一些脆弱的孩童我們一起來努力謝謝次長 謝謝主席謝謝郭委員 謝謝次長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1034,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（12時27分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：次長請。"],["郭委員昱晴：社家署其實也可以一起上來。"],["林次長靜儀：是，我們請社家署。委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：次長好。我想今天早上其實我也聽了很多，大家在詢問關於剴剴案相關的外部督導問題，也有很多委員的一些疑問，我想剛剛在整個質詢的過程當中應該也得到了一個解釋，就是外部督導跟內部督導其實基本上是兩種不同的概念。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：雖然大家都看「督導」兩個字，就覺得外部督導應該跟剴剴案直接畫上等號，就是應該是屬於他的責任，我想這個其實是應該要說清楚，講明白的。今天我們要不厭其煩的再告訴大家，外部督導講的是什麼樣的工作性質，是精神上實質的支持這些所謂的社工，應該是說他們在教育上的加強，在資源上的支持，甚至是情緒上的鼓勵，我想外部督導應該是做這樣的事情。就我所知，當一個單位去請所謂的外聘督導時，其實他們開會的時程一年當中了不起大概三到四次，可能一季開一次。這就很像公司在請一個顧問，我的公司出了什麼樣的營運狀況，我需要一個專業的顧問來給我一個更好的方向，讓我能夠在內部的內規或者是我的營運狀態，可以因為顧問給我的一些方向跟策略上的提供，我可以來做精進。就我的理解，是不是應該是這樣？"],["林次長靜儀：是，因為社工工作事實上真的是面對這個社會裡面各式各樣的面向，因應到整個社會的發展，社工服務也會遇到越來越多不同的問題，可能是過去所受的訓練或經驗上面沒有碰過的東西。所以我們在外督的角色裡面，就像委員這邊提到的，事實上就是包含了教育、行政跟支持。行政上面給予行政上的一些工作程序的指導；教育上面是更加的提升專業職能，尤其是原來這位社工過去的工作服務經驗或受訓過程中，可能缺乏的或者還沒有辦法達到的這個部分的專業，讓他做職能上的提升。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。其實我們前一陣子看到剴剴案，最後這個劉姓保母姐妹已經確定一個被判無期徒刑，另外一個是18年，已經是最重的刑責了。當然這個剴剴案也揪出了很多相關的負面聲浪，覺得好像要把責任推到所謂的外部督導身上。我們就來看看這位真的被潑髒水，然後被指摘的這位外部督導的所有工作時程，從2月24號、5月29號跟8月10號，但記得嗎？這個是2023年；這位外部督導再次接到這個單位請他再來的時候，其實已經是12月26號，那剴剴是在12月24號的平安夜離開的，所以在9月1號，剴剴才經由兒福聯盟轉介到劉姓保姆的手上。其實這中間我們看到，他中間其實是完全不知道有這個個案的，我這樣理解對嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：理論上是這樣，就是說我們現在這個居托中心的訪視輔導員或他本身的工作過程中，如果對於剴剴或這樣的特殊處遇兒有一些其他外來的資訊需求，那他當然必須邀請他的外督委員來給他更多的指導；可是如果當時沒有提出這樣的需求的話，那當然外督委員不會知道這個個案的狀況。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以如果把這個責任全部推到這位外部督導的身上，次長覺得這樣對他公平嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：我想長期以來多數的外督委員為什麼會願意接外督，就是他們希望能夠一方面除了支持本來在業務內的社工之外，也增加他們的能力，用他的專業知識來協助整個業務的運作可以更好。"],["郭委員昱晴：但把剴剴的離開歸咎在這位外部督導的身上，這公平嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：不合理，因為本來在內部就應該有內部的制度。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，但是我們現在看到不管是從地方臺北市政府或是他應該要扛起的責任，或者是臺北市議員不斷的透過媒體在潑髒水的同時，我現在就要問臺北市政府社會局訪視的過程。從2023年的5月16號訪視，到了9月1號剴剴才進入劉姓保母的家中，而臺北市政府的社會局訪視就僅有這麼一次，就是9月26號。這個訪視的次數是不是非常的不夠？"],["林次長靜儀：以剴剴案來講，因為他是出養童，而且他是跨縣市之間做了這樣的轉介。其實我們當然希望他的訪視輔導員，可以有更高的敏感度去加強或者是在這個訪視過程中，針對個案有比較敏感的部分去做一些處理。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，回到問題的本體，真正的監督機制是不是應該由地方政府扛起全責？"],["林次長靜儀：我們站在衛福部的立場，當然是希望就整個制度的運作以及相關法規方面來給予地方政府在相關的運作上面更多的支持，但是我們也希望地方政府在他的權限之內，能夠好好來落實他應該要有的這些服務。"],["郭委員昱晴：早上我聽到黃國昌委員說，外部督導其實沒有負責監督，而是加強社工教育的意義，給予外部資源的一個支持，但他也說了臺北市政府是不能免責的對吧？"],["林次長靜儀：我想委員們可能都對於「督導」兩個字，認為有「督」，可是他們其實在外督的角色裡面主要是「導」跟協助。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。接下來我看到另外一個問題，這個是由臺北市政府的社會局外托給文山居托中心，之後再委托大愛關懷協會，而且是限制性的招標，限制性的招標裡頭包含了評審委員當中有三位就是來自臺北市政府的社會局。如果以剴剴的個案來講，這中間他們只有在9月26號去探訪一次，只去視察一次，這個臺北市政府社會局要不要扛起責任？"],["林次長靜儀：我想社會局在這個角色裡面，他們也清楚知道個案的流向以及他所委託的服務。當然衛福部在去年也有針對這樣子的特殊個案，有要求他們應該要有一個訪視的指引，把這個部分補強起來，我們當然希望地方政府，尤其是本來就參與在這裡面的委員，他應該要清楚的知道。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。那我再重複一次，剴剴案其實是我跟月琴委員從頭到尾關心的，去年9月3號的時候，我們成功的把他的主管機關，從教育部直接改立到衛福部的身上。關於剴剴案的部分，我也是跟月琴委員兩度去旁聽，包含準備庭與審理庭。現在我看到的是，藍白一昧的提及林月琴委員及外部督導的部分，他們看到「督導」兩個字整個都嗨起來了，我覺得是非常非常的不公平。本席再次強調，2023年12月24號的平安夜剴剴離開了，不到兩歲。最後他被媒體揭露是在3月11號，但3月18號就在這個委員會當中，所有的國民黨委員在護一個人，那個人叫召委，那個人就叫做王育敏，當時他還是兒福聯盟的董事，他沒有利益迴避。這件事情我相信大家應該記憶猶新，所以不要再潑髒水到真正在關心兒少，而且真正在關心剴剴案的親力親為的委員身上，把外部督導形容成是殺剴剴的兇手，這個對我們來講是多大的一個侮辱。","我再次強調，臺北市政府還有新北市政府、兒福聯盟有絕大的責任，因為這個孩子最後得到的只有兒福聯盟一個500塊錢的冰冷屍袋。如果大家還要繼續再潑髒水，其實真的大可不必。再次謝謝次長。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員持續的關心，針對這樣子的一些脆弱的孩童，我們一起來努力。"],["郭委員昱晴：好。謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員，謝謝次長。","邱鎮軍委員改書面質詢。","接續我們請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":138,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-12","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","徐巧芯","盧縣一","黃國昌","劉建國","涂權吉","林淑芬","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","黃秀芳","洪孟楷","張啓楷","范雲","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","楊曜","賴惠員","葉元之","王育敏","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃捷"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145201_00002"}}},{"id":"161743","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161743","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db5c3a39e9dd9f213556f20d851a8422b725d7a793ed12253231a3708ee20255e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:24:13 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請問主委共同研究規劃提出了嗎內容大概是什麼報告委員 這方面我請張署長他比較有詳細資料 請問他"},{"start":72.403,"end":100.674,"text":"那包括委員那在擴散模擬分析的這部分我們都一直持續跟日本來去做一個技術的交流那主要的一個對象是日本的逐波大學的一個教授那在國內參與的團隊有氣象署的人員以及我們國園院的人員那在人員的一個交流裡頭今年就是也是五月初的時候那日本的一個專家有到我們這邊來去做整個的一個交流包括兩岸兩邊"},{"start":102.555,"end":106.559,"text":"日本跟我們的一個監測的一個數據以及我們的海洋的一些監測觀看的一些細節的數據都有來去做這個交流那在模式的發展上也有去做交流所以你共同研究規劃提出了嗎"},{"start":119.73,"end":123.353,"text":"這個共同研究是會以MOU的一個方式所以在這一次的討論裡頭也有去討論這個MOU的一個簽訂的一個細節這個一個研究是各帶研究的資源來去共同維持那請問你大概多久可以簽到MOU"},{"start":136.565,"end":148.892,"text":"現在日本這邊專家是說他們帶他回去因為竹坡那邊大學那邊有他的一個行政程序那他們把行政程序給完成了那就會儘速的還回應我們我們這邊也會來持續的追蹤竹坡大概是5月13、14來台嘛對不對但是因為我們赴日的時候是5月8號到15號是去年"},{"start":160.375,"end":180.768,"text":"我們復任是去年所以已經一年過去了我們都很期待MOU可以趕快簽訂既然珠波已經來了也完成了一部分的一些資料帶回去走行政程序是不是能夠再加緊速度不敢說是催促他們但是基本上是積極的能夠來爭取這個部分可以做到嗎"},{"start":181.915,"end":204.75,"text":"我們後續我們就會依委員的指示來辦理好那第五次赴日的報告呢第31頁我們有看到輔導場區內的生物試育的一個試驗顯示魚類、貝類、藻類體內的這一個穿濃度不會超過環境的濃度且已轉至一般海水後可迅速降低無累積的現象台灣也於2024年6月20日"},{"start":207.572,"end":226.608,"text":"由國園驗設計海水川以及生物川試驗場開啟本土海水生物 寒川生物的一個累積效應的一個試驗請問主委截至目前為止我們的本土生物試驗有沒有什麼進度有沒有初步的什麼成果可以跟我們分享一下嗎"},{"start":229.415,"end":247.944,"text":"這些資料可不可以運用在食安風險的評估上目前這個生物村我們是用養殖魚類的方式去做實驗那有沒有什麼進度目前就第一年事實上我們在一年半以前就已經開始建置這個養魚場"},{"start":251.134,"end":278.314,"text":"遁及的寒川水的海水生物養殖場去年就開始做實驗初步我們結果認為無積川濃度跟海水中川濃度的比例大概是0.9%這個結果跟日本東電公告的數據非常相近然後我們今年會繼續還有一年的時間所以這一份報告裡面未來的成果可不可以運用在食安的風險評估"},{"start":280.396,"end":302.715,"text":"石安另外有日本食品輻射食品魚類的那個川的檢驗那跟這個計畫是分開的是分開的那這一份報告主要是要適用於後續要怎麼樣規劃就是海水川透過生物這個就是單純研究海水川它的生物是否遞檢是吧"},{"start":305.858,"end":326.699,"text":"這個我們去年有一個初步的報告給到貴院但我要講的就是說不管是海水內的生物川或者是我剛剛講的食安的問題我們都擔心嘛 打撈的到那個漁民打撈到這相關的漁類的時候可能會有相關的一些生物含川的問題所以還是不離我們現階段最關心的就是食品安全"},{"start":327.599,"end":355.84,"text":"所以當然你說他有另外一個計畫但我們也希望說透過每一個計畫能夠交叉的數據能夠再累積出更加安定的這些報告成果讓國人能夠安心食品安全這個部分你們是專業我們當然尊重但是也要反映出民眾現在的擔憂就是所謂的相關食安問題這個部分也希望你們能夠幫忙一起研究出更加穩定的一個相關成果讓我們國人能夠安心是的 好嗎"},{"start":356.641,"end":385.03,"text":"那報告指出福島核電廠設置有多重緊急的阻斷的一個方式遇到設備異常地震或停電可以手動自動來停止排放2024三月地震四月電力中斷均導致這個排放的暫停經檢查後才恢復作業好 主委我方代表對於日本這一個"},{"start":385.67,"end":400.138,"text":"多核種除去設備非常關心也多次詢問此設備請問現在我國目前針對福島排放異常事件的跨部會聯繫機制是否都在第一時間掌握異常並對外說明"},{"start":403.398,"end":425.452,"text":"報告委員 因為我們跟台日的交流是蠻頻繁的所以那邊ALPS那邊如果有異常的話他們都會在第一時間通知我們另外我們也會根據IAEA的資料去掌握日本目前的排放狀況以上好 那所以剛剛說我們互動頻繁我們什麼時候啟動第六次赴日的實體訪查"},{"start":427.762,"end":442.594,"text":"八萬委員那個第六次因為台日有簽署相關的這個協定所以我們每年一年在台灣一年在日本都會辦理會議那今年我們的會議是預計在十月在台灣對在日本會辦理"},{"start":443.868,"end":472.84,"text":"好 好 謝謝那另外我想關心的就是說核關法三讀後有多少的執法要修那針對核關法修法後賴總統昨天也表示核安會必先訂定安全審查辦法台電在依照這個辦法去做自主的安全檢查評估有無重啟的一個安全條件重啟的期程與成本的效應那政府都會秉持著核安無虞核廢有解"},{"start":473.22,"end":501.177,"text":"社會共識三原則來審慎因應那至於新式的核能技術呢我想賴總統也表示這上代研究政府將是未來的情況在做決定請問主委那現在呢三讀以後總統也指示了那請問相關的執法相關的一些所謂的自主檢查安全檢查這些哪時候要修訂我們現在已經開始著手進行這個法條的有沒有預估何時會完成"},{"start":503.683,"end":530.605,"text":"大概四個月左右四個月其中兩個月是要公告有多抓了嗎還是因為按行政程序我們按照行政程序有兩個月是必須公告然後前面做跟後面做所以加起來大概四個月應該可以完成好 四個月那我們期待那另外針對SNR這個目前台灣對此的研究做得如何有沒有什麼可以分享的"},{"start":533.647,"end":558.317,"text":"包委員現階段除了申請中每年一億的計畫我們現在執行中的兩個不好意思您的聲音可以再大聲一點嗎我們現在執行中兩個計畫一個原子能系統的計畫我們是針對這個核電廠被動式安全的機制還有爐心動態爐心熱水的嚴重事故來做一些SMR的特殊的分析那另外國科會補助的一個計畫710萬人士壓水室"},{"start":561.438,"end":577.806,"text":"SMR的一個爐心的模擬跟隔震技術我們強調就是如果說要將來有可能這個設計需要在比較人口比較密集的時候他怎麼能夠有一個隔震的技術的設計所以目前進行是主要是這兩個計畫這兩個計畫是"},{"start":579.727,"end":596.598,"text":"那目前台灣系統性培養合工人才的學術單位目前只有清華大學那以及原子科的學院但主委上次在上個月的備詢也坦承過去20年合工人才的流失非常嚴重主委那人才培育要如何來做你有沒有具體的一個中長期培育計畫"},{"start":597.819,"end":624.804,"text":"就很多方面一起做包括譬如說我們跟大學的合作研究國研院跟大學的研究也是培養人才的一個管道也這樣子吸引更多學生加入的核能研究的行列包括國研院也增加他們的研究實力這部分我請國研院再補充一下"},{"start":628.246,"end":646.819,"text":"我們事實上就是SMR部分跟清華大學今年跟明年有多次的三個系主任院長都帶來跟我們做很密切的交流就是只要我們這個一億的計畫上來我們會相當的經費會補貼學校老師來培訓員工同時他們最近兩個"},{"start":648.44,"end":673.842,"text":"上個月也請我們互派師資我們會派師資有個核能學程系統的學程我們會有研究人員去當面協助他們授課培育新的員工那另外合龍合方面也跟成大 清大的物理系還有這個國安中心這其他學校也有人才的一些培訓那合工我們將來如果有更有"},{"start":675.483,"end":702.422,"text":"計畫的話希望是不是能夠因為畢竟念合工的人念博士學會的比較少智慧比較少啦但是我們要抓到未來的趨勢嘛這個主委都說了人才一直在流失那SNR有可能是未來的趨勢那如果到時候趨勢已經來了我們又沒準備好沒有相關的人才那基本上我們就已經輸國外的這相關的一些技術可能很多年"},{"start":703.123,"end":721.626,"text":"後續當大家在流行這個技術這個能源政策的時候我們有沒有人才去做相對應的一個把它銜接到這個政策那這個部分會更喪失第一先機所以主委人才的培育很重要拜託你好不好這個一定務必要先行"},{"start":722.446,"end":743.458,"text":"我們也希望爭取教育部公費留學有一個合共這個項目因為這個項目已經停了很多年了我們希望明年開始有恢復合共這個項目我們也會一起幫忙催促但是基本上你們在院會的時候自己內部的跨部會協調你們也要再加強一起加油好嗎謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1027,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時22分）謝謝召委，有請陳主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["羅委員廷瑋：主委好。"],["陳主任委員明真：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：主委，我想持續關心你們關於日本核廢水的第五次報告。日本自112年八月底開始排放含有氚的核廢水，對於這個議題，我之前就一直關心、一直詢問，而核安會至今也已第五度赴日，對吧？"],["陳主任委員明真：是的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：去年3月核安會提出業務報告的時候，主委還沒到任。那時候我拿著核安會第三次赴日專家觀察團整個報告，指出作為檢測單位的大雄分析研究中心沒有拿到ISO認證的事，也提及我方應該要求大雄分析中心拿到我們現階段所看到的ISO認證。我們在觀看的時候被日方拒絕，主委，觀察團要去的時候，代表政府已經跟日方達成協議，日本才會同意前往啊！既然同意我們去日本，我方當然是希望可以看到現場整個處理的情況，如果無法了解現場的整體狀況，我們幹嘛去？用視訊就可以了啊！所以我希望未來每一次赴日的查驗都可以看到想看的、了解想要了解的，這才是赴日訪查的意義。根據第五次赴日實地的觀察，我方有提問，因臺灣持續關注擴散模式及發展國際合作，請問未來是否可以透過合作備忘錄的簽訂，讓雙方維持穩定的技術交流，將海洋大氣之擴散模擬持續精進，互助互利？日方的回應是非常樂意，但是若有希望進行短期的人員交流，可以透過相關的管道赴日，以學術交流名義或者是大學來做連繫，也是一個可以嘗試的管道，建議臺灣可以提供相關的共同研究規劃，雙方再來持續洽談。我們看到這些，請問主委，共同研究規劃提出了嗎？內容大概是什麼？"],["陳主任委員明真：報告委員，這方面我請張組長，他有比較詳細的資料，請他回答。"],["羅委員廷瑋：請說。"],["張組長淑君：報告委員，在擴散模擬分析部分，我們都一直持續跟日本做技術交流，主要的對象是日本筑波大學的一個教授，在國內參與的團隊有氣象署的人員以及國原院的人員，在人員的交流部分，今年5月初的時候，日本的專家到我們這邊做整個的交流，包括兩邊、日本跟我們監測的數據以及海洋監測觀看的一些細節數據，都有做交流，在模式的發展上也有做交流。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以共同研究規劃你提出了嗎？"],["張組長淑君：共同研究是會以MOU的方式，所以在這一次的討論裡也有討論MOU的簽訂細節，這個研究是各帶研究的資源來共同維持那個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：請問你大概多久可以簽到MOU？"],["張組長淑君：日本這邊的專家是說他們帶回去，因為筑波大學有它的行政程序，他們把行政程序給完成了就會儘速回應我們，我們這邊也會持續追蹤。"],["羅委員廷瑋：筑波大學大概是5月13日、14日來臺對不對？但是因為我們赴日的時候是去年5月8日到15日。"],["張組長淑君：我們赴日是去年，這是今年……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，是去年，所以已經1年過去了，我們都很期待MOU可以趕快簽訂，現在既然筑波大學已經來了，也完成了一部分的資料帶回去走行政程序，是不是能夠再加緊速度，不敢說是催促他們，但是基本上是能夠積極地爭取，這個部分可以做到嗎？"],["張組長淑君：好，後續我們會依委員的指示來辦理。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。在第五次赴日報告第31頁我們有看到，福島廠區內生物飼育的試驗顯示，魚類、貝類、藻類體內的氚濃度不會超過環境的濃度，且移轉至一般海水後可迅速降低，無累積的現象，臺灣也於2024年6月20日由國原院設計海水氚及生物氚試驗場，開啟本土海水生物之含氚生物累積效應試驗，請問主委，截至目前為止我們的本土生物試驗有沒有什麼進度、有沒有初步的成果？可以跟我們分享一下嗎？這些資料可不可以運用在食安風險的評估上？"],["高院長梓木：目前這個生物氚我們是用養殖魚類的方式……"],["羅委員廷瑋：去做實驗。"],["高院長梓木：去做實驗。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，有沒有什麼進度？"],["高院長梓木：目前第一年，事實上我們在一年半以前就已經開始建置這個養魚場，噸級的含氚水的海水氚生物養殖場，去年就開始做實驗，初步結果認為無機氚濃度跟海水中氚濃度的比例大概是0.9，90%，這個結果跟日本東電公告的數據非常相近。"],["羅委員廷瑋：相近啦齁！"],["高院長梓木：對，然後我們今年會繼續，還有1年的時間。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以這一份報告裡面未來的成果可不可以運用在食安的風險評估？"],["高院長梓木：食安另外有日本食品、輻射食品、魚類的氚檢驗，跟這個計畫是分開的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是分開的？"],["高院長梓木：對，是分開的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這一份報告主要是要適用於後續要怎麼樣規劃？"],["高院長梓木：就是海水氚透過生物這個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：就是單純研究海水氚它的生物是否遞減，是吧？"],["高院長梓木：是，生物的含量。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。"],["高院長梓木：這個我們去年有一個初步的報告給貴院……"],["羅委員廷瑋：但我要講就是不管是海水內的生物氚或者是我剛剛講的食安的問題，我們都擔心漁民打撈到相關魚類的時候可能會有相關的一些生物含氚的問題，所以還是不離我們現階段最關心的食品安全。"],["高院長梓木：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你說它有另外一個計畫，但我們也希望透過每一個計畫的交叉數據能夠再累積出更加安定的報告成果，讓國人能夠安心食品安全，這個部分你們是專業，我們當然尊重，但是也要反映出民眾現在的擔憂，就是所謂的相關食安問題，這個部分也希望你們能夠幫忙，一起研究出更加穩定的相關成果，讓國人能夠安心，好嗎？"],["高院長梓木：是的，謝謝委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：報告指出福島核電廠設置有多重緊急的阻斷方式，遇到設備異常、地震或停電可以手動、自動來停止排放，2024年3月地震、4月電力中斷均導致排放暫停，經檢查後才恢復作業，我方代表對於日本這一個多核種除去設備非常關心，也多次詢問此設備，請問我國目前針對福島排放異常事件的跨部會聯繫機制是否都在第一時間掌握異常，並對外說明？"],["李組長綺思：報告委員，因為我們臺日的交流是滿頻繁的，所以那邊ALPS如果有異常的話，他們都會在第一時間通知我們，另外我們也會根據IAEA的資料去掌握日本目前的排放狀況。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，所以剛剛說我們互動頻繁，我們什麼時候啟動第六次赴日的實體訪查？"],["李組長綺思：報告委員，因為臺日有簽署相關的協定，所以我們一年在臺灣、一年在日本都會辦理會議，今年的會議預計在10月。"],["羅委員廷瑋：在臺灣？"],["李組長綺思：在日本辦理。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。另外我想關心的就是核管法三讀後有多少子法要修，針對核管法修法後賴總統昨天也表示，核安會必須先訂定安全審查辦法，台電再依照這個辦法去做自主安全檢查，評估有無重啟的安全條件、重啟的期程與成本的效益，政府都會秉持著核安無虞、核廢有解、社會共識三原則來審慎因應。至於新式的核能技術，賴總統也表示這尚待研究，政府將視未來的情況再做決定。請問主委，三讀以後總統也指示了，相關的子法、相關的自主檢查及安全檢查這些哪時候要修訂？"],["陳主任委員明真：我們現在已經開始著手進行法條的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：有沒有預估何時會完成？"],["陳主任委員明真：大概4個月左右。"],["羅委員廷瑋：4個月？"],["陳主任委員明真：因為其中2個月是要公告……"],["羅委員廷瑋：有多抓了嗎？還是……"],["陳主任委員明真：因為按照行政程序，有2個月是必須公告，然後前面作業跟後面作業，所以加起來大概4個月應該可以完成。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，4個月，那我們期待。另外針對SMR目前臺灣對此的研究做得如何？有沒有什麼可以分享的？"],["高院長梓木：報告委員，現階段除了申請中每年1億的計畫，我們現在執行中的兩個計畫……"],["羅委員廷瑋：不好意思，您的聲音可以再大聲一點嗎？"],["高院長梓木：我們現在執行中的兩個計畫，一個是原子能系統計畫，是針對核電廠被動式安全的機制還有爐心動態、爐心熱水的嚴重事故來做一些SMR的特殊分析；另外國科會補助的一個計畫710萬元，是壓水式SMR的爐心模擬與隔震技術，我們強調就是如果將來有可能這個設計需要在人口比較密集的時候，怎麼樣能夠有一個隔震技術的設計，所以目前進行的主要是這兩個計畫。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這兩個計畫？"],["高院長梓木：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：目前臺灣系統性培養核工人才的學術單位只有清華大學以及原子科學院，主委上次在上個月的備詢也坦承過去20年核工人才的流失非常嚴重，主委，人才培育要如何來做？你有沒有具體的中長期培育計畫？"],["陳主任委員明真：這要很多方面一起做，包括譬如我們跟大學的合作，國原院跟大學的SMR研究也是培養人才一個管道，這樣能吸引更多學生加入核能研究的行列，包括國原院也一直增加他們的研究實力，這部分我請國原院再補充一下。"],["高院長梓木：報告委員，我們事實上就是SMR部分跟清華大學，在今年跟明年有多次，3個系主任、院長都帶來跟我們做很密切的交流，就是只要我們這個1億的計畫上來，我們相當的經費會補貼學校老師來培訓員工，同時他們最近在上個月也請我們互派師資，我們會派師資，有個核能系統的學程我們會有研究人員去那邊協助他們授課，培育新的員工。另外核融合方面也跟成大、清大的物理系還有國網中心，其他學校也有人才的一些培訓。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是。"],["高院長梓木：至於核工，我們將來如果更有計畫的話，希望是不是能夠……因為畢竟念核工的人念博士學位的比較少自費，能夠用教育部公費……"],["羅委員廷瑋：是比較少，但是我們要抓到未來的趨勢嘛。"],["高院長梓木：是、是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個主委都說了，人才一直在流失，SMR有可能是未來的趨勢，如果到時候趨勢已經來了而我們又沒準備好、沒有相關的人才，基本上我們就已經輸國外一些相關技術可能很多年，後續當大家在流行這個技術、這個能源政策的時候，我們又沒有人才去做相對應的把它銜接到這個政策，那麼這個部分會更喪失第一先機，所以主委，人才的培育很重要，拜託你好不好？這個一定務必要先行做規劃。"],["陳主任委員明真：是，我們也希望爭取教育部公費留學能有核工的項目，因為這個項目已經停了很多年了，我們希望明年開始恢復核工這個項目的公費留學。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我們也會一起幫忙催促，但是基本上你們在院會時候自己內部的跨部會協調也要再加強，一起加油，好嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅廷瑋委員，主委跟所有的長官請回。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-12","speakers":["林宜瑾","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謝謝"},{"start":217.834,"end":233.584,"text":"我想部長你剛才提到這個是囤房稅的修訂當然這個我們都了解但是我們也看到說這個政府制定這個政策其實簽一法而動全身就是說這個涉及條款"},{"start":234.565,"end":254.879,"text":"它是否影響到說民眾的任意遷徙基本的權利就憲法上我們有遷徙自由的權利因為為了要適用房屋自住稅率符合法定要件就要涉戶籍這件事情真的已經是搞得妻離子散了"},{"start":255.82,"end":273.04,"text":"夫妻就是夫妻子女為了要設計為了要在這個他購得的房子裡面去設計妻離子散有這樣的一個問題所以真的要這樣搞嗎我希望財政部還是要做滾動式的檢討"},{"start":274.662,"end":294.272,"text":"因為這個稅例實施的時候如果是為了打房同房稅的問題那整個我們這個政策推動之後有整個影響到我們整個房市的這個有抑制房市的一個上漲嗎這個可能你們也要去考慮一下"},{"start":295.495,"end":318.162,"text":"房市的上漲的問題因素很多包含資金的充沛的問題以及民眾預期的心理等等有諸多因素那在這個部分我們是就稅的部分因為有各種方式那其中這一個就是讓房屋就是降低這個囤房的一個所以我說是不是有達到真的遏止囤房這樣子一個政策的一個目標"},{"start":323.888,"end":334.341,"text":"我剛才提到的這個似乎會遷移反而動全身嘛會造成很多的民眾為了達到自助稅率然後他們就是去涉戶籍的一個問題嘛OK"},{"start":337.283,"end":365.758,"text":"謝謝委員長另外我也想很多民眾疑惑一個問題就是說民眾為了讓孩子就學的問題會將孩子的護護籍寄放在這個學區的親友家裡面但是房屋稅2.0的薪資剩入借親友來涉及的情況他可能會被認定有住任關係導致他的自住房被認定為非自住就是因為他把他的房子借親友來涉及"},{"start":366.678,"end":389.798,"text":"他的稅率就會升高所以這種非實質的租賃關係只是供親友來寄放戶籍如何申報才不會影響到他的一個房屋的一個稅率這個部長可不可以跟民眾來這個示意一下要如何申報不能涉及到基增食物是不是請副稅屬署長來回應"},{"start":392.233,"end":413.071,"text":"跟委員報告 如果今天只是建家設戶籍他並沒有實際有租用契約 沒有所謂的實際收租金他竊竊說他確實沒有這種事實我們還是會當作沒有 就算他還是自主這樣所以他只要像我們的各地的各縣市的國稅那個稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局稅務局"},{"start":414.552,"end":422.165,"text":"來去填寫就是沒有事實上沒有無人這個租賃關係就沒有租賃關係的一個結局書就可以了好 謝謝"},{"start":427.677,"end":444.001,"text":"那我想剩餘一點點時間我繼續來問部長昨天賴總統在520的周年談話中提到現在是成立主權基金非常理想的時刻並提到要將這主權基金連結AI時代的一個主要目標市場"},{"start":448.442,"end":468.389,"text":"是不是意味著主權基金的成立已經不是我們現在不是紙上彈兵喔政府現在的是一定要做是勢在必行是不是這樣跟委員報告有關主權基金設置這個部分行政院會邀同國發會央行以及財主單位等一起會來研議規劃討論"},{"start":471.206,"end":493.54,"text":"不是在紙上糖冰 我現在問你是不是一定就會在今年就會有一個初步的一個規劃的一個結果就會出來也就剛剛跟委員說明 行政院會要同相關部會一起來做討論跟研議規劃所以今年一定就會做嗎這個時程上我可能沒有辦法跟委員做具體的說明是 我想其實部長 主權基金"},{"start":495.542,"end":519.363,"text":"剛剛我們很多人也提到就是說他這個要成立涉及到就是要定專法還有專責機構還有第三方的一個監督機構基金的裁員這幾個因素都要把它考量進去但是我們看到昨天總統宣布說要成立這個AI的主權基金所以這是不是跟目前我們在談判的對等關稅的問題有關"},{"start":522.608,"end":525.413,"text":"我一直強調說要成立AI主權基金啊"},{"start":528.125,"end":552.131,"text":"對等關稅的談判目前都是由行政院的正副院長在領導相關的團隊OTM他們在做研討是部長你是部長對這個相關的意見他也是問你啊所以為什麼要特別強調成立了AI主權基金就是好像這個主權基金未來就是要投資AI產業"},{"start":555.646,"end":560.228,"text":"總統的意思是不是這樣都沒有遵循過你就直接拋出這樣一個說法這個部分我覺得這個後續應該會再來做討論來看怎麼樣的一個訂定是"},{"start":567.85,"end":593.566,"text":"其實我們想說各國的政府的主權基金他投資的項目當然他要投資用主權基金投資要對他自己獲益要有獲利的對他的投資的國家的利益是有關的一定是要讓他的基金投資出去之後對他的國家利益是非常重要的而且要有很好的一個收益"},{"start":594.687,"end":600.563,"text":"所以我們台積電似乎以我們國家的台積電好像很多國外的主權基金也有投資"},{"start":603.08,"end":624.492,"text":"當然主權基金的設置第一個就是要創造財富為國家增加財源所以如同剛剛委員講未來第一個我們的投資的項目還有有關它的規模以及它如何的監管這都需要設置專法未來再做一個周延的規劃然後落入專法裡面"},{"start":626.733,"end":642.08,"text":"那民眾也可以完全了解所以我們就是未來也不限於只投資AI產業而已這當然相關的只要是跟我們認為說這個投資報酬率會很高而且也符合我們的國家利益我們就會去投資嘛"},{"start":642.9,"end":658.485,"text":"我想這個部分未來在投資項目的部分因為我剛剛為什麼要問你說是不是跟對等談判有關我們知道台積電現在要到美國投資是不是未來我們如果成立主權基金我們也會投資在美國成立的台積電這部分我不知道有沒有討論到這個部分是謝謝"},{"start":669.262,"end":673.308,"text":"好 謝謝李世民委員的資訊 下一位王世堅委員請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1207,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（12時20分）謝謝主席。請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：部長好。今年是囤房稅2.0上路後首年的申報，針對自住房屋的新增稅籍條款，財政部也放寬規定，6月2日前都可以申請設籍，來補漏洞。但是各地方政府寄發稅單後，卻讓我們看到引發房屋稅之亂，有民眾發現自住的房屋被認定為非自住，稅率直接從1.2%暴增到2.6%，導致許多民眾炸鍋，有暴增到2.6%的。要求地方稅務局要重算，而且要更新稅單。","對於為何會有這種情況發生的原因，部長您在5月15日的回應，是認為因為今年首度開徵，發生地方政府錯誤認定的情況，財政部未來會持續地收集各方的意見，並於整體徵收完成後來重新檢討。至於已經收到稅單的民眾，臺北市已經重新開稅單，就可以拿新的稅單延後繳納。當日也有委員問到這是全國都有的問題，不是只有新北的問題，不應該不一致，所以是不是所有地方政府遇到民眾來申訴的時候，都會重新開稅單，民眾會有疑問；而且逾期繳納，也有滯納金的問題。","部長，您當時的回覆，說你會函請各縣市政府重視這個問題，會把內容跟各縣市政府講清楚。我第一個問題想請教部長的，就是這個文已經發給各縣市政府了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：文這個禮拜就會發，也就是對於新北市政府在認定上的歧異部分，我們這個禮拜一定會發出去。"],["林委員思銘：這個禮拜會發。"],["莊部長翠雲：剛剛委員所提到，房屋稅新制今年開徵以後的一些現象，比如說臺北市的狀況，他也即時處理，因為家數資料的問題。新北在認定上，因為他過去也沒有實施過縣市歸戶，所以今年這一次的歸戶造成車位等公共設施有單獨權狀的部分，他把它當作非住宅來適用，這個部分我們也趕快會做處理，這個禮拜就會做處理。"],["林委員思銘：好。"],["莊部長翠雲：另外還有委員提到稅率2.6%這個部分，我們必須要說明，在房屋稅2.0的制度裡，就含有如果持有多戶，而又沒有做有效運用的話，這個部分的稅率是會增加，而且是全國歸戶。這是當時在立法的時候就有這樣的制度設計，最主要就是第一個，就持有多戶者的持有稅率過低，所以才在這一次2.0的稅制改革做了這樣的調整。至於有關資料的問題，或是認定歧異的問題，我們都會一直努力來做處理，只要發現，我們就做一致性的處理。我想這個部分，謝謝委員的提示，謝謝。"],["林委員思銘：好，OK。","部長，您剛剛提到這是囤房稅的修訂，我們都了解。但是我們也看到政府制定這個政策，其實牽一髮而動全身，這個設籍條款是否影響民眾任意遷徙的基本權利，憲法上我們有遷徙自由的權利。為了要適用房屋自住稅率，符合法定要件，就要設戶籍這件事情啊，真的已經搞得妻離子散了，夫妻、子女為了要設籍，為了要在他購得的房子設籍，妻離子散！有這樣的問題，所以真的要這樣搞嗎？我希望財政部還是要做滾動式的檢討，因為實施稅率如果是為了打房、囤房稅的問題，那整個政策推動之後，有影響到房市、有抑制房市上漲嗎？這個可能你們也要去考慮一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：房市上漲的問題，因素很多，包含資金充沛的問題，以及民眾預期的心理等等，有諸多因素。我們是就稅的部分，因為有各種方式，其中這個就是降低囤房的意圖。"],["林委員思銘：所以我說是不是真的有達到遏止囤房的政策目標？"],["莊部長翠雲：讓持有多戶者……"],["林委員思銘：希望財政部你也要去考量。我剛剛提到的這個似乎牽一髮而動全身嘛，會造成很多民眾為了達到自住稅率，然後他們就是去設戶籍的問題嘛。OK？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，是。"],["林委員思銘：部長，另外我想很多民眾也疑惑一個問題，就是民眾為了孩子就學問題，會將孩子的戶籍寄放在這個學區的親友家裡。但是囤房稅2.0的新制，借親友來設籍的情況，他可能會被認定有租賃關係，導致他的自住房被認定為非自住，就是因為他把他的房子借親友設籍，稅率就會升高。所以這種非實質的租賃關係，只是供親友來寄放戶籍，如何申報才不會影響到他的房屋稅率？部長，可不可以跟民眾來釋疑一下？要如何申報？"],["莊部長翠雲：這涉及到稽徵實務，我是不是請賦稅署長來回應？"],["林委員思銘：好，請署長。"],["宋署長秀玲：跟委員報告，如果今天只是借人家設戶籍，他並沒有實際的租賃契約，也沒有實際收租金，他切結確實沒有這種事實，我們還是會當他是自住。"],["林委員思銘：所以他只要向各縣市的國稅局稅捐處填寫事實上沒有租賃關係的切結書。"],["宋署長秀玲：不是實際租賃、沒有收租金。"],["林委員思銘：就可以了？"],["宋署長秀玲：對、對、對。"],["林委員思銘：好，謝謝。","我想剩一點點時間，我繼續來問部長。昨天賴總統在520的周年談話中提到，現在是成立主權基金非常理想的時刻，並提到要將主權基金連結AI時代的主要目標市場。是不是意謂著主權基金的成立已經不是紙上談兵了，政府現在是一定要做，勢在必行，是不是這樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，有關主權基金設置，行政院會邀同國發會、央行以及財主單位等，一起來研議規劃、討論。"],["林委員思銘：不是在紙上談兵，我現在問你，是不是今年一定就會有一個初步的規劃結果出來？"],["莊部長翠雲：也就剛剛跟委員說明，行政院會邀同相關部會一起來做討論跟研議規劃。"],["林委員思銘：今年研議就會做嗎？今年？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個時程上，我可能沒有辦法跟委員做具體的說明。"],["林委員思銘：部長，我想主權基金，剛剛很多委員也有提到，主權基金要成立，涉及到要定專法，還有專責機構，還有第三方的監督機構、基金的財源，這幾個因素都要把它考量進去。但是我們看到昨天總統宣布說要成立AI的主權基金，這是不是跟目前我們在談判的對等關稅的問題有關？一直強調要成為AI主權基金。"],["莊部長翠雲：對等關稅的談判，目前都是由行政院正、副院長在領導相關的團隊OTN他們在做研討。"],["林委員思銘：部長，你是部長吔！你對相關的意見，他也是會問你啊。為什麼要特別強調成立AI主權基金，好像這個主權基金未來就是要投資AI產業。"],["莊部長翠雲：嗯，是不是……"],["林委員思銘：總統的意思是不是這樣？都沒有徵詢過你，就直接拋出這樣的說法。"],["莊部長翠雲：我覺得這個部分後續應該會再討論，看看要怎麼樣的訂定。"],["林委員思銘：其實各國政府主權基金投資的項目，當然是要對他自己有獲利的，他的投資是要對他的國家利益有關的，一定是這個基金投資出去之後對他的國家利益是非常重要而且有很好的一個收益，我們國家的台積電好像很多國外的主權基金也有投資嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，主權基金的設置當然第一個就是要創造財富，為國家增加財源嘛！所以如同剛剛委員所說，未來投資的項目還有有關它的規模以及如何監管，這些都需要設置專法，未來再做一個周延的規劃，然後落入專法裡面，那民眾也可以完全瞭解。"],["林委員思銘：所以我們未來也不限於只投資AI產業而已，相關的只要是我們認為這個投資報酬率會很高而且符合我們的國家利益，我們就會去投資？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分，未來在投資項目的部分……"],["林委員思銘：我剛剛為什麼要問你說是不是跟對等談判有關，是因為我們知道台積電現在要到美國投資嘛！未來我們如果成立主權基金，是不是我們也會投資在美國成立的台積電？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我不知道有沒有討論到。"],["林委員思銘：好，以上。謝謝！"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李思銘委員的質詢。","下一位請王世堅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-13","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","林思銘","王世堅","林楚茵","廖先翔","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部、金融監督管理委員會、中央銀行就「房屋稅2.0課徵亂象與金融機構對不動產\n融資緊縮及中央銀行信用管制措施對房地產交易之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中\n華民國 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下面這一點 於該屋半郡戶籍登記本人配合未成年子女全國合計三戶以內這個自住的稅率是這樣子也要1.2%的話那這個是問題我上次就已經在這邊諮詢過了但是我們還是還沒有得到答案因為這個"},{"start":46.701,"end":64.864,"text":"要辦戶籍登記這一件事情對我們金門地區的民眾影響很大那金門地區很多民眾戶口是在金門但是事實上是工作工作跟居住事實上是住在台灣比如台北高雄各地啦台灣各地那住在金門的話"},{"start":65.845,"end":92.876,"text":"是自由的房子 除了台灣的也是自由的房子實際上也有居住那如果按照你們的規定一定要辦戶籍登記就是他們戶口必須從金門遷到台灣金門現在戶口大概有14萬人嘛但實際居住大概只有5、6萬人所以有幾乎一半的人戶口都是在台灣台灣島那這樣的話因為如果他們把戶口遷過來台灣會造成他們很大的權力的影響比如說最基本的"},{"start":93.456,"end":111.772,"text":"要回家的時候機票就差很多錢我們機票大概有六折左右來回一趟返鄉的時候就是五千塊跟兩千多塊的差異還有當然我們金門地區還有一些自己金門地區因為涉及產生一些金酒相關的一些福利配酒"},{"start":113.333,"end":137.19,"text":"交互配酒或各式各樣金門地區金門縣政府自己所做的回票當然還有很多其他的那這樣他們明明就是自住實務上真的是自住那但是卻沒有辦法享受到這個自住的稅率因為你們要求一定要簽戶口那在金門幾乎基本上是所有的金門人都遇到因為家家戶戶都有人住在台灣都有通常住在家裡的都是"},{"start":138.13,"end":166.189,"text":"父母 長輩我們這個年紀或者50歲40 30 20 讀書的也都住在台灣住在金門就是老跟有中間這個階層他們都住在台灣那這樣或者夫妻有時候就戶籍嘛所以這個問題在金門影響很大那這個有沒有什麼方法就是說我們提一個建議資助商戶內是不是用我們修法就用竊竊還是什麼方式那如果竊竊我也同意"},{"start":167.99,"end":182.64,"text":"支持有罰則如果確實沒有住在那裡那當然也可以跟他重罰甚至用偽造什麼各方面的重罰我們也都會支持因為的確實行上好多人就住在台灣但是他的戶口是在金門那台灣的房的確是自住的這個怎麼處理呢"},{"start":186.537,"end":206.65,"text":"房屋稅自住用戶籍登記其實是回歸到跟地價稅一致的地價稅你要用自用的稅率的話也是要做戶籍登記的要做完成戶籍登記所以並不是房屋稅開這個首例那第二個部分你常時居住在這個地方你的戶籍就在這邊這個我覺得這是一個法規上一定的一個這樣的一個處理"},{"start":207.871,"end":218.494,"text":"但是個別因為各縣市因為有相關的不同的福利的一些措施而造成戶籍上它實際上涉及在那邊人又不住在那邊我覺得這個部分可能他這個就要去做一個看怎麼樣一個權衡因為地價稅也是用戶籍來"},{"start":223.736,"end":242.553,"text":"為什麼地價稅從來沒有人反映那但房屋稅就是自從你們這樣實施以後房屋稅反映基本上如果說是小眾的問題就一戶兩戶當然一個兩個我們當然覺得這個法律這樣不適合那因為這在金門是全金門人的問題每一家每一戶都有每一家每一戶都有這個情形而且大家都因為"},{"start":243.374,"end":264.07,"text":"即便你是在台灣工作 你也常常要回家看父母可能一個月要回去一趟 這個很正常就是離家工作 但是在台灣也是有買房子住在台灣島但是你還是要回家那如果戶口遷到了台灣過來 進到台北來那它就會喪失很多 比如說光飛機票一年就要增加很多費用那這個我們不像坐火車啊 也可以坐什麼開車啊 Bus啊 這種"},{"start":266.912,"end":293.626,"text":"就是這個是離島地區就是會遇到這樣的情形是很不得已的那如果法律是修一個法這個法律是讓全部的百姓每一戶都有這樣的情形因為我們知道澄清案實在是太多家戶都有雖然我們家也有但我不是說我們自己比較不重要家家戶戶都有啊沒有一戶沒有的那這個事情如果沒有辦法解決事實上會造成很大的民怨啊所以想問有沒有什麼變通的方式但我們也是支持說如果沒有實際居住你是可以重罰他"},{"start":294.526,"end":299.234,"text":"如果用切結的方式來修改的話這可不可行啊可不可以朝這個方向去努力看看署長 你看有沒有什麼好方法"},{"start":304.728,"end":329.37,"text":"報告委員因為我們現在房屋稅是屬於地方稅那像委員剛剛講的這種例子是說他是住在台灣那照理說如果照戶籍法的規定他是應該把戶籍就是要設在台灣譬如講在台南好了那台南那部分的戶籍所在地當然台南市政府就願意給他自住的優惠稅率因為他究竟是地方稅"},{"start":330.271,"end":346.594,"text":"可是現在變成是說又希望兼顧民眾的權利不用涉及他欠自己的自住他就要給他優惠稅率因為房屋稅的目的是希望民眾不要炒房基本上因為最大離島不得已也只好這邊住那邊住那也是要來回啊"},{"start":347.595,"end":362.749,"text":"常常就要來回 如果像我也要常常來回那我會想當然是在金門 但是很多的戶口是在台灣在金門我們在講在訂定這個制度的時候那時候為什麼在這樣好 沒關係 你說這地方我知道這地方所以那如果我們地方政府的話 如果"},{"start":363.67,"end":377.798,"text":"我們就用切結代替這個登記或是說我們整個多一個法源讓我們地方政府可以自己決定因為稅是地方在收的嘛我們金門地方有沒有辦法如果金門地方政府訂的這個比如說自治條例啊這一類的有沒有辦法讓我們金門可以解決這樣問題"},{"start":379.658,"end":407.78,"text":"這個部分是因為中央法 中央法規定而且也限制防護稅所以才問你們啊你剛剛說這地方我知道啊現在是全國歸戶在計算戶數的所以它這個是一致而且也跟委員報告這個地價稅就已經是這樣你不能說我不知道地價稅可能地價稅從長久以來都這樣徵收就沒有人反映過那防護稅的反映太多啦 全基盤都反映防護一定是坐落在土地上好沒關係 你們想一下還有沒有什麼方法因為我剛剛說的是提供一個思考"},{"start":408.961,"end":418.888,"text":"說竊竊啊是不是那我說如果他是不實竊真的沒出來你可以重罰我也可以接受用刑罰我也可以接受啊這個你們思考看看喔想看看第二個要請那個公務署公務署長"},{"start":424.409,"end":432.792,"text":"去年我本期有諮詢就是我剛剛提到地區進口商品免徵關稅的部分民國89年是160項 99年是320項然後後來統計110年到120年 112年的時候試用的只有一項 110年一項 110年8項 110年15項佔這個比例0.3% 0.3% 2.5% 跟4.6%"},{"start":448.718,"end":451.08,"text":"我們再看實際上進口的報單數據以金門地區來講免稅進口的項目最多的當然是一些入居用暖室碎石"},{"start":464.771,"end":486.356,"text":"都是是這個但是完稅進口最多的也是這樣都一樣都一樣那看來所以呢你們給我這是我上次又問過你你又給我們報告你說金門營業人大部分金門地區人當然都以完稅進口在銷售到需求市場較少採用免稅進口於當地銷售嘛大家有免稅的優惠卻"},{"start":489.316,"end":493.94,"text":"卻不去做免稅的行為而寧願做完稅的行為你有沒有想過是為什麼包委你了解嗎一個東西它可以免稅進口但民眾寧願完稅進口還要交稅我想這是商業上的一個需求吧為什麼你站在關稅的角度你覺得可以讓你免稅你卻寧願那個"},{"start":512.634,"end":532.144,"text":"卻寧願完稅可是這個免稅一定是對營業人比較不利如果有利商人一定選擇有利的方式趨吉避凶他卻選擇了完稅但是你那時候給我的答案是說你們說所以金門地區你列的那320項應該是符合需求這個答案很跳躍"},{"start":534.161,"end":548.8,"text":"明明就是這個政策應該是有什麼問題應該去探究說到底是什麼問題但是你們卻告訴說那所以我們政策很好百姓沒有這個需求應該去想說如果今天有一個機會您可以有免稅的東西可以買你為什麼要去買完稅"},{"start":550.151,"end":574.031,"text":"根委員報告 金門縣政府如果說居民有這樣的一個實際上的一個需求他要進口免稅的物品 免關稅的物品然後供這個離島居民來使用的話是可以提出這個項目跟我們沒有這些項目已經有在裡頭我現在就講那個項目就有為什麼百姓寧願要完稅百姓為什麼寧願要完稅不要免稅你有沒有想過"},{"start":575.086,"end":596.053,"text":"那可能有可能就是那個離島的居民他可能沒有辦法就說這些物品320項的物品其實已經夠了但是怎麼會比較夠呢你看那320項幾乎都沒有用到啊都一項兩項而已啊表示這個政策上是不是在某些方面的實施是在後端還是哪裡有一些不符合"},{"start":597.053,"end":620.502,"text":"實際所需的當然我們會繼續探討那如果說金門縣政府這邊檢討之後金門縣政府當然但是關乎是我們這邊的事情所以我們還是中央政府做中央政府的事地上政府我也會跟他們要求但是中央政府不是我們在監督的單位所以我請您包括那個複稅署所以請你們一個月把我們金門地區交到這個房屋所以這件事情有沒有什麼好的解決方法"},{"start":621.562,"end":637.257,"text":"官務署這邊關於金門天音樂人進口免稅關稅這個商品項目還是在提一下檢討報告研究要新增免稅項目的一些建議實際讓你們官務署的人在金門去了解一下情形也才知道說你們課的這些東西是不是合理為什麼會有這樣的情形"},{"start":637.837,"end":663.719,"text":"再二要的跟委員報告一下我們一直有跟金門縣政府談說如果金門的居民有什麼需要的貨品可以跟我們提議來建議然後我們會邀請相關的機關來討論是不是來增加這些項目是好 我們也會跟他們說我想金門縣政府比較了解居民的一個需要對 那你們也要去了解一下身為中央單位也必須要了解一下到底老百姓的需求是什麼好嗎都一個月內可以嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":666.141,"end":671.585,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 謝謝陳委員的資訊下一位請林思銘委員資訊好 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1152,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（12時9分）謝謝主席，有請財政部莊部長還有賦稅署署長。"],["主席：請財政部莊部長、賦稅署宋署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：部長，房屋稅2.0改革的重點，目的是要加重持有多戶且未做有效利用的房屋稅負擔，合理化房屋稅的稅賦，現在執行的手段來講，自住有3戶，即房屋無出租或供營業使用；所有人或使用權人本人、配偶或直系親屬實際居住使用且於該屋辦竣戶籍登記；本人、配偶及未成年子女全國合計3戶以內，才可用自住的稅率1.2%。這個問題，我上次就已經在這邊質詢過了，但是我們還沒有得到答案。因為要辦戶籍登記這件事情，對我們金門地區的民眾影響很大，金門地區很多民眾戶口是在金門，但是事實上工作跟居住是在臺灣，比如臺北、高雄等臺灣各地。住在金門是自有的房子，住在臺灣也是自有的房子，實際上也有居住。如果按照你們的規定，一定要辦戶籍登記，就是他的戶口必須從金門遷到臺灣。金門現在戶口大概有14萬人，但實際居住大概只有五、六萬人，所以幾乎一半金門人的戶口都在臺灣島。如果他們把戶口遷來臺灣，會造成他們權利很大的影響。比如說最基本的，要回家的時候，機票就差很多錢，我們機票大概六折左右，來回一趟返鄉就是5,000元跟二千多塊的差異。當然，金門地區還有一些因為設籍而產生的金酒相關福利、家戶配酒、各式各樣金門地區有金門縣政府自己推出的福利，還有很多其他的。他們明明就是自住，實務上真的是自住，但是卻沒有辦法享受到自住的稅率，因為你們要求一定要遷戶口。在金門，幾乎基本上是所有金門人都遇到，因為家家戶戶都有人住在臺灣。通常住在家裡的都是父母、長輩，我們這個年紀，或者50歲、40歲、30歲、20歲也都住在臺灣，住在金門的就是老跟幼，中間這個階層大部分都住在臺灣，或者夫妻有時候會有戶籍的問題。","這個問題在金門影響很大，有沒有什麼方法？我們提個建議，自住3戶內，是不是修法用切結還是什麼方式。用切結，我也支持有罰則，如果確實沒有住在那裡，當然可以給予重罰，甚至用偽造文書或各方面的重罰，我們也都會支持。因為的確實際上好多人就住在臺灣，但是他的戶口是在金門，臺灣的房子的確是自住的，這怎麼處理呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，房屋稅自住用戶籍登記，其實是回歸到跟地價稅一致的，地價稅要用自用的稅率，也是要完成戶籍登記，所以並不是房屋稅開首例。","第二個部分，你長時居住在這個地方，你的戶籍就在這邊，我覺得這是法規上一定的處理。但是因為各縣市個別有相關的不同福利措施，而造成事實上設籍在那邊，人又不住在那邊，我覺得可能他自己就要去做一個權衡，因為地價稅也是用戶籍來徵收。"],["陳委員玉珍：我不知道為什麼地價稅從來沒有人反映，但是房屋稅自從你們這樣實施以後，反映的很多。如果是小眾的問題，就一戶、兩戶，一個、兩個，當然覺得法律不適合，但在金門，是全金門人的問題，每一家、每一戶都有這個情形。即便你是在臺灣工作，就是離家工作，在臺灣買房子，住在臺灣島，事實上也常常要回家看父母，可能一個月正常要回去一趟，但是你還是要回家。如果戶口遷到臺灣、遷到臺北來，那他就會喪失很多，比如說光是飛機票一年就要增加很多費用，我們移動不是坐火車、開車、巴士這種方式，離島地區就是會遇到這樣的情形，這很不得已的。如果修了法律之後，是讓全部的百姓每一戶都有這樣的情形，我們接到的陳情案實在太多，家家戶戶都有，事實上我們家也有，但是我自己比較不重要。家家戶戶都有，沒有一戶沒有的，這個事情如果沒有辦法解決，事實上會造成很大的民怨，所以想問你們有沒有什麼變通的方式？當然我們也支持如果沒有實際居住，你可以重罰他，如果用切結的方式來修改，這可不可行啊？可不可以朝這個方向去努力看看？","署長，你看有沒有什麼好方法？"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，因為現在房屋稅是屬於地方稅，像委員剛剛講的這種例子，他是住在臺灣。"],["陳委員玉珍：對。"],["宋署長秀玲：他住在臺灣，照理說，如果照戶籍法的規定，他是應該把戶籍設在臺灣。假設臺南好了，他戶籍所在地在臺南，當然臺南市政府就願意給他自住的優惠稅率，因為它畢竟是地方稅。可是現在變成是又希望兼顧民眾的權益，你不用設籍，只要切結自住，就要給他優惠稅率，對地方……"],["陳委員玉珍：要給他自住嘛！因為房屋稅的目的，是希望民眾不要炒房嘛，金門人因為住在離島，不得已啊，只好這邊住、那邊住，也是要來回，常常就要來回。像我也要常常來回，我的戶口當然在金門，但是很多人戶口都在金門。"],["宋署長秀玲：我們在訂定這個制度的時候，為什麼會增加……"],["陳委員玉珍：好，沒關係，我知道這是地方稅。如果用切結代替登記，或者可不可能多一個法源，讓地方政府可以自己決定，因為稅是地方在收的嘛。如果金門政府訂一個自治條例這類的法源，有沒有辦法解決金門這樣的問題？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分是因為中央法規訂定，而且現行房屋稅也作全國歸戶……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，所以才問你們啊，你剛才說是地方稅，我知道啊。"],["莊部長翠雲：現在是全國歸戶在計算戶數的，所以是一致的。而且也跟委員報告，地價稅就已經是這樣，你不能說地價稅是自住，土地是自住，但是房屋……"],["陳委員玉珍：我不知道，可能地價稅長久以來都這樣徵收，都沒有人反映過啊，但是房屋稅反映太多了，全金門都反映。"],["莊部長翠雲：因為房屋一定是坐落在土地上，是吧、對吧？"],["陳委員玉珍：好，沒關係，你們想一下還有沒有什麼方法。"],["莊部長翠雲：好、好。"],["陳委員玉珍：我剛剛是提供一個思考，用切結，如果切結不實，真的不是自住，你可以重罰，我也可以接受，用刑罰我也可以接受。你們思考看看、想看看。","第二，要請問關務署。"],["主席：請關務署署長。"],["陳委員玉珍：署長好，去年我有質詢離島地區進口商品免徵關稅的部分，民國89年是164項，99年是320項，後來統計110年至112年，110年適用的只有1項，111年8項，112年15項，分別占所有比例的0.3%、2.5%、4.6%。我們再看實際進口的報單數據，以金門地區來講，免稅進品項目最多的是「路基用卵石、碎石」，但是完稅進口最多的也是這個，都一樣。所以我上次問過你，你有給我們報告，你說：「金門地區營業人大多將商品項目表之商品以完稅方式進口後再銷售至需求市場，較少採免稅進口並於當地銷售。」大家有免稅的優惠，卻不去做免稅的行為，而寧願做完稅的行為，你有沒有想過是為什麼？您了解嗎？一個東西可以免稅進口，但民眾寧願完稅進口，還要繳稅。"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，我想這是商業上的一個需求。"],["陳委員玉珍：為什麼？你站在關稅的角度，可以讓你免稅，你卻寧願完稅？表示這個免稅一定是對營業人比較不利嘛，如果有利，商人一定選擇有利的方式嘛，趨吉避凶嘛，但他卻選擇了完稅。你那時候給我的答案是金門地區所列320項商品應該符合需求，這個答案很跳躍。"],["彭署長英偉：跟委員報告……"],["陳委員玉珍：明明就是這個政策應該有什麼問題，應該去探究到底是什麼問題？但是你們卻告訴我，我們的政策很好，百姓沒有這個需求，你應該去想如果今天有機會可以買免稅的東西，為什麼要去買完稅的？"],["彭署長英偉：跟委員報告，如果居民有這樣的實際需求，他要進口免關稅的物品，供離島居民來使用的話……"],["陳委員玉珍：當然都是可以的。"],["彭署長英偉：可以提出這個項目，跟我們申請。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有，這些項目已經有在裡頭，我現在講那些項目就有，為什麼百姓寧願要完稅？"],["彭署長英偉：所以現在已經多達320項。"],["陳委員玉珍：百姓為什麼寧願要完稅，而不要免稅？你有沒有想過？你們是不是……"],["彭署長英偉：有可能對於離島的居民，就是這些320項的物品其實已經夠了，但是他……"],["陳委員玉珍：怎麼會比較夠呢？你看看320項幾乎都沒有用到啊！都1項、2項而已。表示這個政策在某些方面的實施，是在後端還是哪裡有一些不符合實際所需？"],["彭署長英偉：當然我們會繼續探討，如果金門縣政府檢討之後，認為有什麼窒礙難行的地方，……"],["陳委員玉珍：金門縣政府是金門縣政府，但是關務是我們這邊的事情，所以還是中央政府做中央政府的事，我也會跟地方政府要求，但是地方政府不是我們監督的單位嘛。所以我請您，包括賦稅署，一個月內。對我們金門地區的房屋稅有沒有什麼好的解決方式；關務署這邊，關於金門地區營業人進口商品免徵關稅的商品項目，還是再提一下檢討報告，研究新增免稅項目之建議。"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：實際讓你們關務署的人去金門了解一下情形嘛，好不好？也才知道你們課徵是不是合理，為什麼會有這樣的情形，好嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：再扼要地跟委員報告，我們一直有跟金門縣政府談，如果金門居民有什麼需要的貨品，可以跟我們提議、建議，我們會邀請相關的機關來討論，是不是來增加這些項目。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們也會跟他們說。"],["彭署長英偉：我想金門縣政府比較了居民的一些需要。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，你們也要去了解一下。"],["彭署長英偉：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：身為中央單位，也必須要了解到底老百姓的需求是什麼，好嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：好。我們一起去討論。"],["陳委員玉珍：都一個月內，可以嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：好，可以。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員的質詢。","下一位請林思銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-13","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","林思銘","王世堅","林楚茵","廖先翔","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部、金融監督管理委員會、中央銀行就「房屋稅2.0課徵亂象與金融機構對不動產\n融資緊縮及中央銀行信用管制措施對房地產交易之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中\n華民國 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你懂了沒有"},{"start":167.361,"end":191.309,"text":"這地方有什麼幫助?幫了老闆你什麼忙?什麼狗屁都沒做叫他到民進黨黨部去好了這跟保文這邊認知有點不太一樣事實上根據他所回報相關的資料董事長我不為難他這個人工作可以換一換吧不然他可以減薪了他什麼出身的,馬上給他一個專門委員"},{"start":193.874,"end":217.384,"text":"公務員考試了嗎?第一個就是海基會並不需要公務員相關的資格第二個是他目前的薪水應該還不是啦但他的目前的薪資是臨時人員的薪資啦所以比較起來應該不是非常高的薪資做點正事嘛到那邊跟地方政府搗蛋啊"},{"start":219.235,"end":243.272,"text":"我們會請他強化...我們看不看機場有經過評估的勒是不是我們...我在那邊陳培宇委員我也跟他講我們和睦相處齁我們共同為這個島上的人民努力這個也是我們的目標是不是不是啊每天在網路上攻擊啊應該是這樣說啦就是我們會...我再發現的話齁我還會天天來找你們算賬我跟你講"},{"start":244.431,"end":267.204,"text":"你們長官都不管了?如果委員有需求的話,歡迎隨時提出來這樣子,每三個月給我一次,他在做什麼事,好不好?我要看,我要看我等到預算我要看,你不要怪我把它刪掉了再不違反我們內部規定的情況之下,可以提供給委員,這個沒有問題"},{"start":269.131,"end":292.333,"text":"違反你們什麼規定立法委員知道你們在那邊胡作非為胡作八道我不能講話私人的一個行為應該不在海基會工作的範圍之內假設他在網路上個人的發言他可以到台灣搞太陽花學運啦不要到馬祖那邊搞什麼運動啦我跟你講啦算七八糟啦如果這個是他個人私人的行為的話個人開除啊"},{"start":294.042,"end":313.158,"text":"你們不用考核的啊你們不用考核嗎考核的部分應該是根據他的工作成果沒有工作啊 做什麼他還跟中共打電話嗎他可以到對面去嗎我們會查清楚是是是好啊 你請回 董事長謝謝還請邱主委邱主委有請陳委員好你看陳某人向中共投入了嗎"},{"start":323.804,"end":351.475,"text":"我想委員愛鄉愛國大家都非常了解我們相識很多年了我也告訴過你我的祖先我的祖先我祖父祖母所有的親人我台灣沒有半個親人祖墳都在大陸以前都是中國對不對我們都是中國人講得好好的現在中國也不能講了"},{"start":353.57,"end":371.473,"text":"連打麻將武統都不能自摸啊什麼話嘛你說我們言論有什麼自由理想報告委員我們還是尊重國人他文化跟血緣的認同五一八他們招商會兩岸金門馬祖都有去你們就提出監察委員說王安中民縣長在裡面什麼什麼什麼"},{"start":383.206,"end":409.226,"text":"沒有會議紀錄,有什麼會議紀錄啊我們也沒開會也沒幹什麼的委員我們有跟縣政府做很好的聯絡市長委員吃飽飯不要亂寫啊我們也尊重監委的調查我們是在保護我們交流啦你能夠保護誰啊大陸老闆說的是你們能夠保護誰我們協助他不要違反現行的兩岸規定人被抓起來我馬上知道他的訊息你絕對不知道我告訴你"},{"start":412.199,"end":438.998,"text":"你們怎麼知道中共抓了什麼人在幹什麼,你不知道,我會知道喔但是我問你,我絕對不是中共同路人不是說中國國民黨黨籍的都是中共同路人這什麼話嘛我們支持兩岸交流,但是應該要去統戰兩岸交流啦我們龍馬的錯商會行之有年去那邊幹什麼呢?去談一間我們酒怎麼樣賣到馬尾去免稅能夠入關是不是?"},{"start":439.97,"end":457.153,"text":"變成福州的嗜酒,我們想賺點錢啊,是不是?我們學生交流兩岸互動,學生交流,你怕我們被統戰?我這次去大陸啊,我告訴老公啊,你們統戰我是我在統戰你們,你搞清楚喔!馬祖被統戰了嗎?"},{"start":459.422,"end":475.457,"text":"福碼戳傷會因為涉及到很多項目是跟公權力有關我們還是希望好 你們公權力很大了我們是說我們不要讓縣政府的人觸犯所以我們要協助他金門到了廈門就跑到北京去了 我們有嗎都聽你們的指示嘛 是不是"},{"start":481.494,"end":493.839,"text":"是我們很感謝縣政府我們中央地方一起協力我們去交流但是不要被統戰這一次五一長假我們來了多少人你有得到勤制嗎你說觀光客是嗎我告訴你二十幾個人一共二十幾個人丟臉了我跟你講金門去了一萬多個人為什麼人家不想來嘛"},{"start":509.4,"end":519.067,"text":"人家來一個團,你告訴我三分之一現在你們怎麼又變成五分之一啊?中共的官員又變成五分之一三分之一,為什麼?"},{"start":520.362,"end":548.821,"text":"先讓他們進來嘛看看裡面的環境嘛當然馬祖很像被你們陸委會卡來卡去移民署怎麼卡我們都沒有卡我們都非常歡迎我們中國大陸的旅客到金門馬祖像金門是人數比較多我們也很想了解也協助了解為什麼你們開放的比金門還要早為什麼平均只有一天六個人我們也覺得很納悶"},{"start":550.492,"end":567.374,"text":"我再問你,陸配,人家辦了三十年了,都沒事,現在要回去查我告訴對面的國台辦宋主任,請他幫個忙他們基層的這一些台辦都已經調走了,換人退休死亡了,去哪裡拿?"},{"start":569.486,"end":596.797,"text":"民主大陸辦這個證那麼好辦嗎辦不出來啊應該沒有問題啦只要跟我們聯繫那我們也會替他聯絡對岸的公安派出所你不要把他當匪諜嘛我們是在幫助他合法取得台灣的身份不要被質疑那麼我們兩岸人流往來身份的這個單一戶籍制是最重要的一個基礎"},{"start":597.757,"end":624.344,"text":"你說外配對你們陸委會都大拇指嘛齁你一轉身就是這樣子我告訴你你一轉身就是這樣子你一來就是這樣子你聽懂我的意思吧我理解我理解但是我們是真心誠意的在協助關懷來協助我們陸配完成他那個法律的要求要人家發自內心的勒我要對你抱著感恩的心勒是不是"},{"start":625.933,"end":646.564,"text":"他現在對你們抱著仇恨的心你知道嗎你知道嗎那天為什麼他們遊行很多人是不敢來很多人不敢來怕被你們照相以後又弄回去了你懂了沒有我的情志告訴你我絕對比你正確我們在搞民意的是不是請你們注意一下好不好"},{"start":654.978,"end":681.432,"text":"還有陸委會的功能你要地方政府不要健康有序的交流你們中央陸委會跟海基會吳董事長當然在兩岸德高望重啦您說和平啊,我看很像不是這樣你說對等啊,怎麼對等法嘛他不會跟你對等的啦永遠不會跟你對等的啦台灣有一天被老美賣掉你都不知道,我告訴你"},{"start":682.267,"end":708.441,"text":"被老美賣掉,你不叫你試試看看啊,台積電沒了你被美國人賣掉你都不知道你要兩個人均衡發展嘛,是不是蔡英文當總統的時候有聲音嗎?沒有聲音啊,我想吳董事長你很清楚嘛是不是,講話要小心嘛誒,烏克蘭死多少人啊你們沒娶老婆的到烏克蘭去老婆一個人可以娶三個,我告訴你是這樣嗎?"},{"start":711.574,"end":721.103,"text":"現在連女生都不准出來了連女人都要去打仗陸委會的功能是什麼請坐陸委會的功能是什麼"},{"start":722.529,"end":749.309,"text":"沒有功能嘛 你在幹嘛不要說 我想我們自力維護兩岸關係和平穩定邱主委你不要跟我講官話啦不是官話 你講官話我也會講啊是不是我們要兩岸健康有序的交流幹什麼我也會講啊 講得很漂亮啊你說中國經濟很差很差很差我剛回來啊他們預防特朗普上去"},{"start":750.543,"end":779.074,"text":"早就在搞擴大內需了我跟你講沒有那麼慘全世界哪一個經濟不是在下滑的只有中國大陸嗎人家說習近平快死了,我看他健康得很走路跟我一樣有點慢了你們不要這樣子搞518行之有年你們不要這樣子搞好不好我們是在協助地方政府也在保護他們不要觸法你已經讓步了,派民主黨去"},{"start":780.236,"end":802.348,"text":"你已經讓步了,我心裡有感受,不是沒感受兩岸健康有序教練沒有做任何的會議記錄沒有幹什麼,你們為什麼這樣刁難但是不要觸法,我們是避免比如說你剛剛說那個福瑪出商會那個就有觸法的嚴重嫌疑那我也觸法了"},{"start":803.482,"end":830.163,"text":"我們監察院也在關注,我們應該協助地方政府可以交流,但是不要觸發我看我們沒有言論自由了,去大陸講話要小心喔搞不好就是匪諜去對面啦,人家中共官員也沒做什麼紀錄也沒幹什麼北京也沒有講說,你跟某某台灣官員見面要寫報告來,沒有啊我們這裡很嚴格"},{"start":833.186,"end":861.096,"text":"請你們注意一下好不好你不要把我當匪諜啦 我也不是匪諜我真的很生氣啊 邱主委我連跟你打電話打了一個多鐘頭我真的很生氣我跟你講我們是很好的朋友欸怎麼搞成這個樣子咧我想我們出發點就是幫忙地方政府好啦 幫忙不要違法吳董事長你回去交代底下查一下齁你派個人在那邊幫我們地方政府嘛怎麼在跟我們搗戰每天咧"},{"start":863.149,"end":880.48,"text":"這怎麼可以這樣子搞啊 是不是我沒有監視他啊他的一舉一動 我們的鄉親都會跟我回報每個村 每個里 每個戶都會向我回報我那裡不是極權統治喔這是民心嘛 是不是好吧 謝謝主席對不起啊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":932,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（12時17分）謝謝主席，是不是請吳董事長？"],["主席：吳董事長有請。"],["陳委員雪生：吳董事長早。董事長，以前海基會在馬祖並沒有派員，現在海基會已經有派員在那邊了。"],["吳董事長豊山：現在有了。"],["陳委員雪生：你了解他吃什麼飯、做什麼事嗎？"],["吳董事長豊山：吃怎麼樣？"],["陳委員雪生：吃什麼飯、做什麼事，你有了解嗎？"],["吳董事長豊山：詳細的情況我們……"],["陳委員雪生：好，沒關係！派個人來講，誰？"],["黎副秘書長寶文：委員好，我是副秘書長黎寶文。"],["陳委員雪生：秘書長？"],["黎副秘書長寶文：副秘書長。"],["陳委員雪生：副秘書長，好。"],["黎副秘書長寶文：是。"],["陳委員雪生：你派的人是誰？"],["黎副秘書長寶文：目前派的是陳姓專委。"],["陳委員雪生：陳姓專委？"],["黎副秘書長寶文：是。"],["陳委員雪生：每天在那邊做什麼事？"],["黎副秘書長寶文：基本上，他在那邊處理民眾諮詢的事項或是……"],["陳委員雪生：有嗎？發員工薪水？"],["黎副秘書長寶文：不是發員工薪水，而是處理民眾各式各樣諮詢的事項、與兩岸人民相關的事項。"],["陳委員雪生：有沒有具體的工作內容？"],["黎副秘書長寶文：我們給他的工作內容，第一個，他必須每天彙整在馬祖當地的兩岸事務輿情，並且製作工作週報。第二個，拜會地方相關的單位……"],["陳委員雪生：有週報回來嗎？"],["黎副秘書長寶文：有。"],["陳委員雪生：他拜會哪個地方的誰？"],["黎副秘書長寶文：就我這邊所知，拜會過馬祖的紅十字會、內政部移民署的連江站、鄉公所、新移民協會、馬祖海巡隊部、法院、地檢署、地方媒體以及其他相關的媒體。"],["陳委員雪生：拜會這些單位有什麼功能嗎？每天都去拜會？有什麼事？具體的內容？工作的內容及項目？"],["黎副秘書長寶文：還包含文書驗證諮詢的服務，現在比較多的項目是……"],["陳委員雪生：文書驗證是他的工作範圍嗎？"],["黎副秘書長寶文：沒有，是文書驗證諮詢的服務。"],["陳委員雪生：諮詢喔！"],["黎副秘書長寶文：對，沒錯！因為……"],["陳委員雪生：我告訴你，他現在沒事做，每天在網路上胡說八道，寫什麼東西，我告訴你啊！"],["黎副秘書長寶文：是。"],["陳委員雪生：提到我們北竿機場改建的配套，你罵誰啊！每天在網路上罵縣政府、罵我們陳雪生立法委員，你要罵交通部長嘛！叫他下台啊！罵民航局嘛！叫局長下台啊！你罵縣政府，每天在網路上攻擊這些幹什麼！飯吃太多了，閒著沒事做！"],["黎副秘書長寶文：是，報告委員……"],["陳委員雪生：是交通部及民航局主政耶！不是縣政府主政、也不是我主政，我是民意代表而已耶！"],["黎副秘書長寶文：是。"],["陳委員雪生：每天在那邊搗蛋，你懂了嗎？對我們地方要有什麼幫助？幫了老百姓什麼忙？什麼狗屁都沒做，叫他到民進黨黨部去好了。"],["黎副秘書長寶文：這個與我們這邊的認知有點不太一樣，事實上，根據他所回報的相關資料……"],["陳委員雪生：我不為難董事長，但是這個人的工作可以換一換吧？不然他也可以減薪。"],["黎副秘書長寶文：減薪？"],["陳委員雪生：他是什麼出身的，馬上就讓他擔任專門委員？參加公務人員考試了嗎？"],["黎副秘書長寶文：第一個，海基會並不需要公務人員相關的資格。第二個，他目前的薪水應該……"],["陳委員雪生：我知道，你讓他擔任秘書長都可以，對不對？"],["黎副秘書長寶文：應該還不是，但他目前是臨時人員的薪資，比較起來應該不是非常高的薪資。"],["陳委員雪生：做點正事嘛！對不對？到了那邊對地方政府搗蛋啊！我們開不開機場是有經過評估的，是不是？"],["黎副秘書長寶文：是。"],["陳委員雪生：我也告訴陳培瑜委員，我們要和睦相處，共同為這個島上的人民努力，是不是？"],["黎副秘書長寶文：是，這個也是我們的目標。"],["陳委員雪生：不是啊！每天就在網路上攻擊啊！"],["黎副秘書長寶文：應該是這樣說，我們會……"],["陳委員雪生：我再發現的話，還是會天天來找你們算帳！"],["黎副秘書長寶文：是。"],["陳委員雪生：你們長官都不管的喔？"],["黎副秘書長寶文：如果委員有需求的話，歡迎隨時……"],["陳委員雪生：董事長管不到這一塊啊！"],["黎副秘書長寶文：是，如果委員有意見可以隨時提出來。"],["陳委員雪生：管管人，好不好？"],["黎副秘書長寶文：是。"],["陳委員雪生：每三個月給我一份他在做什麼事的報告，好不好？我要看！我要看！"],["黎副秘書長寶文：這是屬於工作報告，如果在不……"],["陳委員雪生：我要看喔！否則，等到審預算時你就不要怪我將它刪掉。"],["黎副秘書長寶文：是，在不違反我們內部規定的情況之下，可以提供給委員，這個沒有問題。"],["陳委員雪生：違反你們什麼規定？立法委員知道你們在那邊胡作非為、胡說八道，我不能講話啊？"],["黎副秘書長寶文：私人的行為應該不在海基會的工作範圍之內，假設他在網路上的個人發言……"],["陳委員雪生：他可以在臺灣搞太陽花學運，但是不要到馬祖那邊搞什麼運動，我告訴你啦！亂七八糟啊！"],["黎副秘書長寶文：如果是他個人的行為……"],["陳委員雪生：既然是個人的行為就開除啊！你們不用考核啊？你們不用考核嗎？"],["黎副秘書長寶文：考核的部分應該是根據他的工作成果，關於這個部分，我們再與……"],["陳委員雪生：沒有工作，做什麼啊？他還可以與中共通電話嗎？他還可以到對面去嗎？"],["吳董事長豊山：我們會查清楚。"],["黎副秘書長寶文：是。"],["陳委員雪生：好，你請回。董事長，謝謝。","請邱主委。"],["主席：邱主委有請。"],["邱主任委員垂正：陳委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：主委，你看陳某人像中共同路人嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員愛鄉愛國，大家都非常了解。"],["陳委員雪生：主委，我們相識很多年了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["陳委員雪生：我也告訴過你，無論是我的祖先、我的祖父、祖母及所有的親人，我在臺灣沒有半個親人，祖墳也都在大陸，以前都是稱為中國，對不對？我們都是中國人，講得好好的，現在中國也不能講了，連打麻將五筒都不能自摸啊！什麼話嘛！我們的言論有什麼自由？你講啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：報告委員，我們還是尊重國人文化及血緣的認同。"],["陳委員雪生：主委，因為金門及馬祖都參加了他們的518招商會，你們就提出監察委員說，王忠銘縣長在裡面什麼什麼的，沒有會議紀錄等等。有什麼會議記錄啊？我們又沒開會，也沒幹什麼。"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員，我們與縣政府做了很好的聯絡。"],["陳委員雪生：監察委員吃飽飯不要亂寫啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們尊重監察委員的調查，而且是保護這個交流。"],["陳委員雪生：我不要你的保護，你們能夠保護誰啊？你們能夠保護誰？你們陸委會能夠保護誰？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們協助他不要違反現行的兩岸規定。"],["陳委員雪生：人被抓起來，我馬上能知道他的訊息，你絕對不知道，我告訴你！你們怎麼知道中共抓了什麼人、在幹什麼，你們不知道，我會知道喔！但我也要告訴你，我絕對不是中共同路人，並不是中國國民黨籍的都是中共同路人，這是什麼話嘛！"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們支持兩岸交流，但是應該要去統戰化。"],["陳委員雪生：兩岸交流啦！我們龍馬的磋商會行之有年耶！去那邊幹什麼呢？談論我們的酒要如何賣到馬尾，而且要能夠免稅入關，讓它變成福州的市酒。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["陳委員雪生：我們也想賺點錢，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我了解，不過……"],["陳委員雪生：我們推動兩岸互動、學生交流，你卻認為我們被統戰。這次我去大陸就告訴老共，不是你們統戰我，而是我統戰你們，要搞清楚喔！馬祖被統戰了嗎？馬祖哪個老百姓被統戰了？"],["邱主任委員垂正：因為福馬磋商會涉及的很多項目是與公權力有關，我們還是希望……"],["陳委員雪生：好，你們的公權力很大啦！"],["邱主任委員垂正：不要這麼說！我們是說，不要讓縣政府的人觸法，所以我們要協助他。"],["陳委員雪生：沒有啊！我們有哪個人跑到北京去嗎？沒有啊！金門到了廈門之後就跑到北京去了，我們有嗎？都是聽你們的指示，是不是？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我們也很感謝縣政府，中央與地方一起協力，我們可以去交流，但是不要被統戰。"],["陳委員雪生：這次的五一長假來了多少人，你有得到情資嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：你是說觀光客嗎？"],["陳委員雪生：我告訴你，二十幾個人，一共二十幾個人，丟臉啊！金門去了一萬多個人，為什麼？人家不想來嘛！人家來個團，你告訴我是三分之一，現在怎麼變成五分之一，中共官員的部分變成五分之一？原本是三分之一，為什麼？先讓他們進來嘛！看看這邊的環境嘛！不然馬祖都被你們陸委會和移民署卡來卡去，什麼國安會報……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們都沒有卡，也都非常歡迎中國大陸的遊客到金門及馬祖觀光。像金門的人數是比較多，我們也很想協助、了解，你們開放得比金門還要早，為什麼平均一天只有6個人，我們也覺得很納悶。"],["陳委員雪生：邱主委，我再問你陸配一事，人家搬來30年都沒事，現在卻要回去查、辦證明，我告訴對面國台辦的宋主任，請他幫個忙。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["陳委員雪生：他們基層的那些台辦都已經調走換人、退休或死亡了，去哪裡拿啊？你以為去大陸辦這個證明有那麼好辦嗎？辦不出來啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：報告委員，應該沒有問題，只要與我們聯繫，我們也會替他們聯絡對岸的公安派出所。"],["陳委員雪生：不然，之前都沒有這樣做，為什麼現在要呢？你不要把陸配通通當匪諜嘛！"],["邱主任委員垂正：沒有、沒有！我們是要幫助他們合法取得臺灣的身分，不要被質疑。兩岸人流往來，身分的單一戶籍制是最重要的一個基礎。"],["陳委員雪生：你說外配對你們陸委會都是豎起大拇指，但你一轉身就是這樣子，我告訴你！"],["邱主任委員垂正：我了解，我們會努力。"],["陳委員雪生：你一轉身就是這樣子！你一來就是這樣子！你聽懂我的意思吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我理解、我理解，但我們是真心誠意的協助、關懷陸配，完成法律對他們的要求。"],["陳委員雪生：真心誠意是要發自內心的，我要對你抱著感恩的心耶！是不是？現在他們是對你們抱著仇恨的心，你知道嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我了解。"],["陳委員雪生：你知道嗎？那天的遊行有很多人都不敢參加，害怕被你們照相之後就被弄回去，你懂了嗎？我把我的情資告訴你，絕對比你正確啊！我們是搞民意的，是不是？請你們注意一下，好不好？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["陳委員雪生：再來是陸委會的功能，你要地方政府健康有序的交流，以中央的陸委會及海基會而言，吳董事長在兩岸當然是德高望重，你們說要和平，但我看好像不是這樣喔！你說對等，怎麼對等？它不會與你對等啊！永遠不會與你對等啦！臺灣有一天被老美賣掉，你都不知道，我告訴你！被老美賣掉，不相信的話，你就試看看！台積電沒了，被美國人賣掉，你都不知道！兩岸應該要均衡發展，是不是？蔡英文當總統時有聲音嗎？沒有聲音啊！我想吳董事長也很清楚，是不是？講話要小心嘛！烏克蘭死了多少人，你們沒娶老婆的可以去烏克蘭娶老婆，一個人可以娶3個，我告訴你！是這樣嗎？現在連女生都不准出來了，連女人都要去打仗了。陸委會的功能是什麼？你說陸委會的功能是什麼？沒有功能嘛！"],["邱主任委員垂正：不要這樣說！我想我們致力於維護兩岸關係和平穩定……"],["陳委員雪生：邱主委，你不要對我講官話啦！"],["邱主任委員垂正：不是官話，我們全力以赴。"],["陳委員雪生：你講官話，我也會講，對不對？我們要兩岸健康有序的交流，我也會講啊！講得很漂亮啊！你說中國的經濟很差很差很差，我剛回來啊！他們為了預防川普上台，早就在搞擴大內需了，我告訴你，沒有那麼慘！全世界有哪個國家的經濟不下滑，只有中國大陸嗎？人家說習近平快死了，我看他健康得很呢！只是走路與我一樣有點慢。你們不要這樣子搞，518行之有年，你們不要這樣子搞，好不好？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們是協助地方政府，也是保護他們不要觸法。"],["陳委員雪生：我知道你們已經讓步了，派秘書長去，你已經讓步了，我的心裡有感受，不是沒感受。兩岸健康有序交流，沒有任何的會議記錄、沒有幹什麼，為什麼你們要這樣刁難？"],["邱主任委員垂正：但是不要觸法，我們是避免……"],["陳委員雪生：觸什麼法？"],["邱主任委員垂正：譬如你剛剛說的福馬磋商會就有觸法的嚴重嫌疑。"],["陳委員雪生：聊聊天而已，不然我也觸法了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想監察院也在關注，所以我們應該協助地方政府，可以交流，但是不要觸法。"],["陳委員雪生：我看我們沒有言論自由了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：不要這麼說。"],["陳委員雪生：依照你的講法，去大陸講話要小心，搞不好就是匪諜、搞不好就是匪諜！去對面，人家中共的官員也沒做紀錄、也沒做什麼，北京也沒說你與臺灣某某官員見面要寫報告，沒有啊！我們這裡很嚴格耶！請你們注意一下，好不好？你不要把我當匪諜，我也不是匪諜，我真的很生氣啊！邱主委，那天我打電話給你說了一個多鐘頭，真的是很生氣，我們是很好的朋友，怎麼搞成這個樣子呢？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們的出發點就是幫忙地方政府不要違法。"],["陳委員雪生：吳董事長，你回去交代下屬查一下，你派的人應該是在那裡幫助我們地方政府，怎麼會每天在那邊搗蛋呢？怎麼可以這樣子搞，是不是？我沒有監視他，但是對於他的一舉一動，我們的鄉親都會向我回報。每個村、每個里、每個戶都會向我回報，但我們那邊不是集權統治，這就是民心，是不是？謝謝。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：主席，對不起啊！"],["主席：沒事！希望我們兩岸的關係好一點，大家就不會有這麼多的誤會要在這邊釐清，好不好？謝謝陳雪生委員的質詢。","下一位請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","下一位請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","報告委員會，登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，我們詢答到此結束。另有委員高金素梅、丁學忠及牛煦庭所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢與未及答復部分，請相關單位於一周內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-20","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","李坤城","邱志偉","陳雪生","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145101_00006"}}},{"id":"161739","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161739","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db0e2a1bbaf7ef6c3132bc34272b9029b325d7a793ed12253232fe7fe4339727175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:07:20 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我們"},{"start":142.342,"end":166.894,"text":"我們判斷他還是權力很穩定都可以正常的出國他的行程還是大刀闊斧的進行內部的這個人員整數然後當然我覺得一定會某種程度會更多的反彈另外一個他執政基礎就是經濟成長經濟穩定那你看川普的關稅政策對美國當然勢必造成直接的衝擊"},{"start":168.206,"end":181.171,"text":"那經濟如果往下行往下修那會讓他的統治基礎執政基礎弱化是那您覺得這個今年或者到明年中國的經濟狀況會不會因此弱化從2022年中國大陸的經濟就不斷的惡化"},{"start":187.113,"end":214.481,"text":"2020年開始從它解封之後我想它復甦的力道經濟這個提振的預振法律仍然情勢在惡化加上這個您剛剛提到的跟美中之間的關稅戰以及未來的科技戰那麼我想中國大陸現在的經濟發展受到很大的壓力那加上我們從中國大陸的統計"},{"start":216.641,"end":239.594,"text":"數據來看一方面有很多統計數據都不真實也被蓋牌那也發現很多矛盾的地方那這個對外資的出走也是造成一個原因因為你這個前景不明數字失真他們無法繼續投資所以我們看外資一直在出走"},{"start":240.054,"end":261.276,"text":"外資出走投資不振所以經濟下行經濟惡化直接衝擊就是民生嘛或者產業產業沒有上來民生往下行當然影響所有經濟成長的山下馬車都是老百姓如果對生活充滿了抱怨或者充滿了不公平"},{"start":262.401,"end":281.219,"text":"那他們當然是會直接衝擊到這個他們國家的社會穩定對不對那你覺得他們社會穩定習近平的政權如果去維持現行的在經濟狀況那麼糟糕的情況之下他還能維持一定的控制讓他社會穩定他是用什麼方法呢"},{"start":282.842,"end":308.879,"text":"跟委員報告我們也了解習政權面臨到內外部的內外交迫空權的挑戰不管是你剛剛講的內部經濟面也引發了這個停工潮這個停工潮很快就變失業潮中國大陸現在每年有1200萬的這個大學畢業生要就業非常的嚴重那這個就會有社會問題"},{"start":310.04,"end":329.853,"text":"那對整個政權的穩定度就會產生影響不過我們也看到中國大陸各種的經濟工作包括也在積極的在創造更多的經濟的能量輔助經濟的這個穩定他們有四穩三保的一個政策"},{"start":331.054,"end":350.963,"text":"所以他們的不利因素包括經濟社會穩定包括他們政治權力鬥爭我想好像都沒有比過去有改善所以我們當然只能本身做最好的準備那一點點時間再請教海基會吳董事長吳董事長有請謝謝吳董事長還有邱主委"},{"start":357.389,"end":379.581,"text":"就是說兩岸人民交流吳董事長是德高望重那對兩岸關係我想他是一個非常重要的這個董事長這個位置非常重要一定可以做很多事情就是兩岸人民交流我想請教邱主委今年一到四月國能附中的人數有沒有這個數字我們都有那比起去年同期是減少"},{"start":388.197,"end":411.413,"text":"跟去年差不多沒有旅行目的嘛都是商務嘛你說中國大陸來的不夠國人附中很多都是旅遊的也有也有旅遊像旅遊團客嘛對不對因為它自由行本來我們就是尊重人數比去年同期是降今年第一季今年一到四月應該是降嘛"},{"start":416.44,"end":442.273,"text":"一到三月是44萬如果以去年的話我們是277萬就是下降嘛有人說是不是為邦不入啦但是兩岸還是有某種程度商務啦或者人員的交流這個是存在的所以海紀委吳董事長這邊扮演很重要的角色啦但是第一個我考慮到人身安全國人富中他人身安全很重要那提到港澳"},{"start":443.547,"end":453.47,"text":"當然港澳目前變成一中化了你去香港澳門跟去中國這個本土一樣因為我就不敢從香港轉機您認為我適合從香港轉機嗎"},{"start":459.063,"end":472.181,"text":"我想委員過去有從香港轉機的經驗不要不讓我入境對 並不愉快那我們也建議如果沒有必要 盡量不要那也希望委員要轉機"},{"start":473.863,"end":484.797,"text":"眷屬我覺得應該比較沒問題不過委員有需要都通知我們醫生那我們來幫你做安全評估第二個不用啦 我不會去啦"},{"start":489.122,"end":513.13,"text":"我想我們從我們進入香港我們要坦白就是說我們從這個香港開始有兩個國安法一個是港版國安法一個是他們的國安條例國安二法實施以來我們也很關注我們國人是不是入境有因為被國安事由被逮捕的"},{"start":513.85,"end":541.27,"text":"截至目前為止還沒有案例出來但是我們不能說就掉以輕心謝謝謝謝主委那我想請教吳董事長就是吳董事長我想請教您對於當前兩岸關係您的看法是怎樣這個問題好大沒關係就是您個人很大我知道有沒有什麼具體的未來不知道一年內你覺得必須要完成的"},{"start":542.055,"end":569.61,"text":"當前兩岸的關係就是我們中華民國信仰和平主義中華人民共和國公開講還是無同實際的作為上我們沒有激進到大陸它不斷激進到台灣我們不搞襯托文化它一直襯托文化可是我認為中共"},{"start":571.997,"end":589.118,"text":"慢慢的應該會發覺和平還是對他比較好真要對台動武的話他也完蛋所以我對兩岸的和平發展我審慎樂觀現在情況就這樣子好 謝謝董事長 謝謝邱主委好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":859,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時7分）謝謝，是不是邀請陸委會邱主委？"],["主席：邱主委有請。"],["邱主任委員垂正：邱委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝主委！主委，辛苦了！我想影響兩岸關係可操之在我們的就是將我們的政策規劃好、執行好；非操之在己的就是中國內部的因素。中國內部的因素包括權力鬥爭；第二個是它的經濟成長狀況；第三個是它的社會穩定狀況。從power struggle這個角度來看，今年以來中共高層、中國高層權力鬥爭的狀況有沒有比去年更為激烈？"],["邱主任委員垂正：報告委員，中共高層如果仍然以強調的8項規定反貪打腐，今年副部級以上中管幹部落馬的人數有20位，其中有3位是正部級的，我想以反貪將重要官員雙規的狀況還是滿嚴重的。"],["邱委員志偉：如果是正部級的，這些指示大概是來自於習近平？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["邱委員志偉：習近平處置下面這些官員的力道越大就有可能招致更大的反彈。"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["邱委員志偉：我看他的力道從來沒有小過，好像是一年比一年更為強烈。"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["邱委員志偉：你預估習近平的領導地位會不會弱化？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們剛剛講的是一般違反8項規定反貪打腐的部分，尤其是軍方的高級將領一一去職，從何衛東軍委副主席開始，我們看到很多軍事將領也因案被查。至於剛剛你提到的習近平穩不穩……"],["邱委員志偉：權力基礎。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們判斷他的權力還是很穩定，可以正常的出國，他的行程還是……"],["邱委員志偉：他大刀闊斧地進行內部的雷霆整肅，我覺得某種程度會有更多的反彈。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外一個執政基礎是經濟成長、經濟穩定，你看川普的關稅政策對美國勢必造成直接的衝擊，如果經濟成長往下修就會讓他的統治基礎、執政基礎弱化。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你覺得今年或是到明年中國的經濟狀況會不會因此而弱化？"],["邱主任委員垂正：從2022年中國大陸的經濟就不斷惡化。"],["邱委員志偉：從2022年開始？"],["邱主任委員垂正：從它解封之後，我想它的復甦力道可說是欲振乏力，情勢仍然持續惡化，加上你剛剛提到的美中之間的關稅戰以及未來的科技戰，我想中國大陸現在的經濟發展受到很大的壓力。再者，我們從中國大陸的統計數據來看，一方面有很多統計數據都不真實、被蓋牌，也發現有許多矛盾的地方，這是造成外資出走的一個原因，因為前景不明、數字失真，他們無法繼續投資，所以我們可以看到外資一直出走。"],["邱委員志偉：外資出走、投資不振，所以……"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，內需也不振、消費也不振。"],["邱委員志偉：經濟下行、經濟惡化直接衝擊的就是民生或產業。"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["邱委員志偉：產業沒有上來，民生往下行，當然影響所有……"],["邱主任委員垂正：經濟成長的三架馬車都是負面的。"],["邱委員志偉：如果老百姓的生活充滿抱怨或充滿不公平，當然就會直接衝擊到國家的社會穩定，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["邱委員志偉：如果在經濟這麼糟的情況下，習近平政權還能維持一定的控制讓社會穩定，他是用什麼方法呢？"],["邱主任委員垂正：報告委員，我們也了解習政權面臨到內外交迫的空前挑戰，無論是剛剛講的內部經濟面引發的停工潮，而且這個停工潮很快就變成失業潮，中國大陸現在每年有1,200萬的大學畢業生要就業，情況非常的嚴重，這個就會產生社會問題，對於整個政權的穩定度也會產生影響。不過，我們也看到中國大陸各種的經濟工作報告，正在積極創造更多的經濟能量，扶助經濟的穩定，他們有四穩三寶的政策，努力維護……"],["邱委員志偉：他們的不利因素包括經濟社會穩定、包括政治權力鬥爭，比起過去好像都沒有改善，所以我們當然就是本身做好最好的準備。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["邱委員志偉：一點點時間要請教海基會的吳董事長。"],["主席：吳董事長有請。"],["邱委員志偉：吳董事長德高望重，對兩岸關係而言，董事長這個位置非常重要，一定可以做很多事情。關於兩岸人民的交流，請教邱主委，有沒有今年1到4月國人赴中的數字？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們都有。"],["邱委員志偉：都有？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["邱委員志偉：比起去年同期是減少？"],["邱主任委員垂正：與去年差不多。"],["邱委員志偉：沒有旅行的目的，都是商務的嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：你是說中國大陸過來的部分？"],["邱委員志偉：國人赴中。"],["邱主任委員垂正：國人赴中也有很多是去旅遊。"],["邱委員志偉：也有旅遊？"],["邱主任委員垂正：也有旅遊。"],["邱委員志偉：現在沒有團客，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們對於自由行本來就是予以尊重。"],["邱委員志偉：人數比去年同期是降低的，今年第一季、今年1到4月應該是降的嘛！"],["邱主任委員垂正：1到3月是44萬，如果以去年而言，我們是277萬。"],["邱委員志偉：所以是下降嘛！"],["邱主任委員垂正：有下降。"],["邱委員志偉：有人說是不是危邦不入，但兩岸還是有某種程度的往來，譬如商務或人員的交流，這個是存在的，所以海基會吳董事長這邊扮演了很重要的角色。不過，第一個，我考慮的是人身安全，國人赴中的人身安全。提到港澳的部分，目前港澳原則上是一中化，你去香港、澳門等同是到中國本土一樣，像我就不敢從香港轉機，你認為我適合從香港轉機嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想委員過去有從香港轉機的經驗……"],["邱委員志偉：它不讓我入境。"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，並不愉快。我們建議，如果沒有必要就儘量不要，也希望委員要轉機……"],["邱委員志偉：眷屬呢？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我覺得眷屬應該比較沒問題，不過，委員有需要就通知我們一聲，讓我們幫你做安全評估。第二個……"],["邱委員志偉：不用啦！我不會去啦！"],["邱主任委員垂正：坦白講，香港有二個國安法，一個是港版國安法、一個是他們的國安條例，國安二法實施以來，我們也很關注我們國人入境後是不是有因為國安事由被逮捕，截至目前為止還沒有案例出來，但是我們也不能因此就掉以輕心，我們還是要注意風險。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝主委。","我想請教吳董事長，你對當前兩岸關係的看法是如何？"],["吳董事長豊山：這個問題好大。"],["邱委員志偉：沒關係！就是你個人的看法！我知道這個問題很大，有沒有什麼未來具體的規劃，譬如你覺得在一年內必須要完成的？"],["吳董事長豊山：當前兩岸的關係，我們中華民國信仰和平主義，中華人民共和國公開講不排除武統，然而，實際的作為上，我們沒有機艦騷擾大陸，但它不斷以機艦騷擾臺灣；我們不搞滲透分化，但它一直搞滲透分化。不過，我認為中共應該會慢慢地發覺，還是和平對它比較好，真要對臺動武的話，它也完蛋了。因此，我對兩岸的和平發展是審慎樂觀，現在的情況就是這樣子。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝董事長、謝謝邱主委。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員。","下一位請陳素月委員、陳素月委員、陳素月委員不在。","下一位請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","下一位請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","下一位請陳雪生委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-20","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","李坤城","邱志偉","陳雪生","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145101_00006"}}},{"id":"161738","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161738","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7dbf453cdaca468702832bc34272b9029b325d7a793ed12253266d4deb5ed01280b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:56:59 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賴總統日前接受民敵選讀的專訪他有提到大公司跟小公司之間比喻兩岸關係我看了他接受專訪的原文他就說中國是比較大的公司 台灣是比較小的公司如果你要變我的公司 你要提條件"},{"start":38.792,"end":63.66,"text":"不是台灣的一體條件 讓你說要或是不要 而且還說你一定要變成我的一部分然後呢 這個都沒有任何其他的做法這不行啦 台灣是民主社會 人民是國家的主人這人民不會接受的 大概那段專訪的原文是這樣子那我想請教一下 身為陸委會主委 你怎麼去詮釋這個總統會提到這一段 大公司跟小公司我覺得從兩岸互動來看 就是對等尊嚴"},{"start":65.305,"end":86.698,"text":"而且還要真正有善意尤其現在兩岸的癥結之所在就是中國大陸不肯正視中華民國存在的客觀事實他提出了協商的前提就是在一中原則的九二共識"},{"start":88.374,"end":104.445,"text":"像這樣消滅中華民國,矮化台灣的政治前提,我們是沒有辦法接受的我想國人也無法接受我們每次民調都有超過七成以上的主流民意反對政府接受"},{"start":105.478,"end":127.316,"text":"中共的這個前提來與中國大陸做協商那當然兩岸就因此而無法官方互動所以我們就希望中國大陸還是要回到對等尊嚴的立場正視中華民國事實存在也要正視我們台灣人民對於民主生活的這個"},{"start":129.734,"end":143.393,"text":"這個強烈要求這樣才能夠促進兩岸良性互動最主要從這個比喻我覺得是要對台灣有善意那其實目前為止我們沒有看到善意的呈現是比較令人遺憾所以主委認為說總統這個比喻就是說"},{"start":146.276,"end":164.307,"text":"這個中國對台灣要有善意 那台灣呢 這就是由人民來決定台灣的前途啦這不是說你今天要併我 然後你什麼條件都沒有講 然後就是台灣一定要給中國那可是呢 總統這個說法呢 受到在野黨的批判說你這個是提統一的條件啊 是提那個賣台啊 你怎麼看"},{"start":164.844,"end":180.098,"text":"我想這個是過度解讀啦都沒有回到整個文本的脈絡去理解總統的談話那這樣的一些過度解讀我想是不必要的好 那這個總統520談話嘛那大家也會期待說這個總統在這個就職一周年"},{"start":186.297,"end":188.32,"text":"在兩岸這方面會不會有談話談話內容大家會注意但是我們發現說這次總統520談話沒有主動提到兩岸的問題"},{"start":199.877,"end":215.505,"text":"然後呢 這個是有記者在問的時候 他在做回答那有時候說跟不說 都有他的意涵在那你主委怎麼看就是說那這一次的這個520的這個就職一周年的總統的這個談話裡面沒有特別提到兩岸還是說 因為在3月13號這個總統在這個國安會議之後已經有說過了這個國安的五大威脅還有17項的陰陰策略這個有這層關係嗎"},{"start":224.64,"end":248.04,"text":"我想總統從他上任以來有關他兩岸政策其實談的架構跟內容都蠻豐富的那特別你也提到這個3月13號也有因應中共這個國安威脅統戰的17項因應策略也不斷的在重申那也再度的強調兩岸應該要這個透過"},{"start":254.052,"end":276.813,"text":"如果說以人民福祉為念的話兩岸和平互利互惠共榮共存應該是我們努力的目標也應該透過對等尊嚴進行健康有序的交流跟對話共同迎向和平共榮的目標我想他這個善意不斷的提出來所以我們就呼籲中國大陸一定要正視"},{"start":278.195,"end":295.491,"text":"我們中華民國存在的客觀事實要傾聽去解讀用心解讀我們所傳達的善意讓兩岸能夠回到這個相向而行的這個途徑我想才能夠真正改變兩岸關係那你覺得中國那邊有聽到了嗎"},{"start":296.98,"end":315.527,"text":"我想就讓他慢慢的去改變畢竟他是一個極權專制的體制他過去對台的政策向來也沒有改變他不改變他的那個僵化思維那我們就要有戰略定力我們不斷的去影響他那隨著國內"},{"start":317.048,"end":329.924,"text":"他內外部的影響我們希望我們能夠營造一個善良方 理性方能夠希望他能夠真正的面對台灣能夠用"},{"start":331.906,"end":358.401,"text":"就是對等尊嚴的立場來跟我們交流互動官方互動可能比較困難但是民間的互動應該把它正常化那我們在17項因應的策略也強調我們希望跟中國大陸進行各種健康有序的交流我們希望能夠去統戰化那麼去政治化去風險化讓我們很多民眾"},{"start":359.321,"end":378.927,"text":"去中國大陸也能夠在維護他的安全的情況底下做好各種的提醒讓兩岸的交流沒有這些風險要降低風險這就是我們努力的目標所以我們不是不交流我們是怕沒有正常健康與有序交流的機會所以主委認為總統在520"},{"start":381.548,"end":396.751,"text":"就是週年談話沒有特別提到這個兩岸問題沒有什麼特別的含義就對了該講的之前都已經有提過了是好 那我最後再問一個就是說根據這個陸委會的臉書這個就是說從去年1月到今年的4月30號有102名國人赴中國大陸在失聯遭留置盤查或是關押那請問一下這個數字102人他目前的樣態是怎麼樣"},{"start":408.314,"end":431.077,"text":"是失聯了還是被關押了還是說是怎麼樣這個有沒有進一步的訊息跟委員報告我們這個數字都是來跟我們報案的也有跟海基會報案那這個數字我們都有在統計這是有報案的數字對 但是我要跟委員報告沒有報案的數字搞不好更多"},{"start":431.584,"end":454.909,"text":"你認為那個黑數大概有多少?我覺得那個黑數可能是相當驚人的那這是有公文報案的相當驚人是十倍還是百倍?這個很難評估不過我們相信沒有報案的應該更多不過我願意在這個報案裡面相關的樣態跟文報告約州司連的部分在這個102個有12位"},{"start":458.01,"end":480.089,"text":"遭這個留置盤查的有13位那遭陸方關押的有70位目前是這些關押有70位是那他們的理由是什麼有各種比如說詐騙案件或其他的刑事案件或者是一些國安案件也是包括或是參加宗教活動"},{"start":481.19,"end":499.327,"text":"因這個法律被關押的也有人所以這些案件加起來有70人那我要跟委員報告剛剛也提到了這個黑數更多沒有跟我們報案更多所以我們那這部分該怎麼去處理"},{"start":500.827,"end":523.613,"text":"我們很重視我們國人賦入的人身安全這是最重要的因為中國大陸一直吸納我們的民眾賦入招待啦 各種的統戰活動但是那個安全也是需要關注特別在成都二十二條之後國人賦入的安全是明顯的升高連我們的一貫道親戚"},{"start":526.674,"end":554.441,"text":"交流那現在還沒回來那所以我們要呼籲國人啊 赴陸一定要有安全的思考要審慎的評估做好安全的準備如果你還是要去的話一定要像上我們陸委會陸港澳赴陸港澳登陸的系統你有登陸的資訊多一份登陸就多一份安全萬一有什麼事情我們可以找到聯繫的方式提供及時的援助"},{"start":554.701,"end":558.305,"text":"我們還是透過管道過去我們兩岸共同打擊犯罪以及私保互助的機制"},{"start":569.718,"end":590.056,"text":"那麼雖然陸方往往用政治理由無法讓這個機制產生作用但是我們還是透過各種可能的管道去關切是不是會在關家那邊也希望陸方要重視這些人的司法人權也要跟他在台家屬這個聯繫那我們陸委會"},{"start":594.059,"end":604.631,"text":"海基會都有一個專案會去每一個家庭去做各種的訪問提供必要的協助時間有限先問到這邊謝謝主席謝謝主委謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":824,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時57分）謝謝主席。我們請邱主委。"],["主席：邱主委有請。"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主委好。賴總統日前接受敏迪選讀Podcast的專訪，他有提到用大公司與小公司來比喻兩岸關係。我看了他的原文，他說「中國是比較大的公司，臺灣是比較小的公司，如果你要併我的公司，你要提條件，不是臺灣來提條件，讓你說要或是不要，而且還說，你一定要變成我的一部分，然後都沒有任何其他的做法，這不行啦，臺灣是民主社會，人民是國家的主人，這人民不會接受的。」那段專訪的原文大概是這樣，我想請問主委，身為陸委會主委，您怎麼詮釋總統這一段大公司跟小公司合併的問題？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我覺得從兩岸互動來看，就是對等尊嚴，而且還要真正有善意。尤其現在兩岸的癥結所在，就是中國大陸不肯正視中華民國存在的客觀事實。他提出協商的前提，就是在一中原則的九二共識，像這樣消滅中華民國、矮化臺灣的政治前提，我們是無法接受的，我想國人也無法接受。","根據我們每次的民調，超過七成以上的主流民意，都反對政府接受中共的這些前提來進行協商。當然兩岸就因此無法官方互動，所以我們希望中國大陸要回到對等尊嚴的立場，正視中華民國存在的事實，也要正視我們臺灣人民對於民主生活的強烈要求，這樣才能夠促進兩岸良性互動。最主要從這個比喻，我覺得是要對臺灣有善意，截至目前為止，我們沒有看到善意的呈現，這比較令人遺憾。"],["李委員坤城：所以主委認為，總統這個比喻是希望中國對臺灣要有善意，臺灣的前途應由人民決定，而不是說你今天要併我，什麼條件都沒有講，就要求臺灣一定要給中國。可是總統這個說法受到在野黨的批判，說這是在提統一的條件，甚至說是賣臺，您怎麼看？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想這個是過度解讀，都沒有回到整個文本的脈絡，去理解總統的談話。這些過度的解讀，我想是不必要的。"],["李委員坤城：好，那總統520的談話，大家也會期待總統在就職一週年，會不會有兩岸方面的談話內容。但是我們發現這次總統520的談話，沒有主動提到兩岸問題，是有記者問的時候他才回答。有時候說跟不說都有他的意涵，主委怎麼看？這一次520就職一週年的談話裡面，總統沒有特別提到兩岸，還是因為在3月13日，總統在國安會議之後，已經有說過國安五大威脅，還有17項的因應策略，有這層關係嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想總統從上任以來，有關對兩岸政策的談話，其實架構跟內容都滿豐富的。你也特別提到3月13日有針對中共的國安威脅與統戰，提出17項因應策略，也不斷的重申並再度強調，兩岸應該要以人民福祉為念，兩岸和平、互利互惠、共榮共存，應該是我們努力的目標。也應該透過對等尊嚴，進行健康有序的交流跟對話，共同迎向和平共榮的目標。我想善意已經不斷的提出來，所以呼籲中國大陸一定要正視我們中華民國存在的客觀事實，要傾聽並用心解讀我們所傳達的善意，讓兩岸能夠回到相向而行的途徑，才能夠真正改變兩岸關係。"],["李委員坤城：你覺得中國那邊有聽到嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想就讓它慢慢的去改變，畢竟它是一個極權專制的體制，過去對臺的政策，向來也沒有改變。它不改變僵化思維，那我們就要有戰略定力。我們不斷的去影響它，隨著它內外部的影響，我們希望能夠營造一個善良方、理性方，讓他能真正面對臺灣，用對等尊嚴的立場來跟我們交流互動。官方互動可能比較困難，但是民間的互動應該正常化。我們在17項因應策略也強調，希望跟中國大陸進行各種健康有序的交流，希望能夠去統戰化、去政治化，去風險化，讓民眾去中國大陸也能夠在維護他的安全情況下，做好各種提醒，讓兩岸的交流降低風險，這就是我們努力的目標。所以我們不是不交流，是怕沒有正常健康有序的交流機會。"],["李委員坤城：所以主委認為，總統在520就職週年談話，沒有特別提到兩岸的問題，沒有特別涵義就對了，該講的之前都已經有提過了？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["李委員坤城：最後再問一個問題，根據陸委會的臉書，從去年1月到今年的4月30日，有102名國人赴中國大陸失聯、遭留置盤查或是關押。請問這102人目前的樣態是怎麼樣？是失聯還是被關押？有沒有進一步的訊息？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，這個數字是來跟我們或海基會報案的人數，我們都有統計。"],["李委員坤城：這是有報案的數字？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，但是我要跟委員報告，沒有報案的數字搞不好更多。"],["李委員坤城：你認為那個黑數大概有多少？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我覺得這個黑數可能相當驚人，這是有跟我們報案的……"],["李委員坤城：相當驚人是十倍還是百倍？"],["邱主任委員垂正：這個很難評估，不過我們相信，沒有報案的應該更多。我願意將報案裡面的相關樣態跟委員報告，在102人中，失聯的有12位；遭留置盤查的有13位；遭陸方關押的有70位。目前是這些，那我們……"],["李委員坤城：關押的有70位？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["李委員坤城：他們的理由是什麼？"],["邱主任委員垂正：有各種理由，比如詐騙案件、刑事案件、國安案件，包括參加宗教活動，也有人因涉及法令被關押，這些案件加起來有70人。剛剛也提到黑數更多，沒有跟我們報案的更多，所以我們……"],["李委員坤城：這部分該怎麼去處理？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們很重視國人赴陸的人身安全，這是最重要的。因為中國大陸一直吸納我們民眾赴陸，不論是招待或各種統戰活動，但安全是需要關注的。特別在懲獨22條之後，國人赴陸的安全風險明顯升高。連我們一貫道的道親去交流，到現在還沒回來。所以我們呼籲國人赴陸一定要有安全思考，要審慎評估，做好安全準備。如果你還是要去，一定要上陸委會的「赴陸港澳登錄系統」登錄資訊，多一份登錄就多一份安全，萬一有什麼事情，我們可以找到聯繫方式，提供即時援助。"],["李委員坤城：失聯就找不到了，那被關押的70位，有想辦法讓他們回來嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們還是會透過管道，過去兩岸有共同打擊犯罪以及司法互助的機制，雖然陸方往往用政治理由，讓這個機制無法產生作用，但我們還是透過各種可能的管道，去關切他們是不是被關在那邊，也希望陸方要重視這些人的司法人權，也要跟他在臺的家屬聯繫。我們陸委會及海基會都有一個專案，針對每個家庭進行各種的訪問，提供必要的協助。"],["李委員坤城：今天先問到這邊，謝謝主席、謝謝主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：相關資料請於會後詳細提供，謝謝。","下一位請林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員不在。","鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","下一位請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-20","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","李坤城","邱志偉","陳雪生","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145101_00006"}}},{"id":"161737","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161737","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7dbfdca63f3516a567132bc34272b9029b325d7a793ed1225329258d6461fda9c085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:48:56 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我們一直很期待立法院能夠提報涉密的委員去中國大陸依照我們兩岸條例第九條相關的機制來做許可審查但是我們一直沒有 除了五院 除了立法院沒有提報 其他都已經提報了"},{"start":73.114,"end":91.483,"text":"好很可惜喔不過確實民進黨團在這件事情上我們已經有相關表達立場我們認為我們完全尊重您的建議因為五院都必須要同等對待面對敵外境外敵對勢力這件事情我認為在野黨應該也要一起支持不過因為剛剛是徐馨瑋問的這一題我就忍不住好奇喔國民黨的"},{"start":92.723,"end":106.62,"text":"總召帶著國民黨委員去這件事情我認為有相關的國安疑慮不過這不是我今天的問題我要跟您分享另外一個可能在你們過往的涉及業務範圍裡面沒有意識到這裡也有國安危機在2022年當時呢直攔高雄鋼鐵人"},{"start":107.441,"end":134.631,"text":"港资案这件事情我不知道你有没有印象2022年那你们处理的方法非常明快果决那面对陆资跟港资要进驻台湾运动团队我不知道后续你们有没有其他的掌握那我这个指控其实是其来有自事实上这几年开始我们看到非常非常多的中资他们花很多钱开始大举收购世界各地的球队我们都知道收购球队绝对不是只是为了收购球队"},{"start":135.211,"end":161.911,"text":"它相关政治文化的配套其实是绑在一起的这个过往的渗透手法其实全世界都已经看得非常清楚了在去年五月我们办公室收到了一个陈情来自于国立台湾体大在台中再次强调台中的国立台湾体育运动大学他们在2024年把台湾以及足球联赛的参赛资格从学校端这边转卖给峰会体育有限公司"},{"start":163.191,"end":177.92,"text":"同時在去年的5月31號中華足協也做了這個公告當時我們辦公室收到這個陳情之後呢來下一張我們當然要積極跟教育部了解台體大怎麼可以做這樣的事情怎麼可以把足球協會以及聯賽的參賽資格還有球員的權利轉讓給民間公司到底內部審核發生了什麼事情"},{"start":185.825,"end":198.401,"text":"當時教育部高將司去做一些行政調查當然現在調查結果我們是不滿意的我們辦公室後續會再持續追蹤因為我們來看一下這個公司到底是什麼樣的公司來下一張"},{"start":200.674,"end":212.658,"text":"好那這個是相關的合約內容就長成這樣好主委您看一下那那個乙方也就是峰會體育有限公司的代表者是馮世文那這個案子真的非常非常的誇張當時在轉讓這個權利的時候呢簽名就只有球隊教練一個人"},{"start":217.12,"end":244.078,"text":"是這個事情爆發出來之後發現副校長跟校長才知道當然學校不是您所主管的業務沒關係我們往下看馮世文是誰呢馮世文是來自於峰會體育有限公司的代表人但是他同時也是另外港資跟中資的發言人相關的工作如果我們往下繼續追查好下一張我們懷疑國立大學球隊疑似遭到港資收購我們認為陸委會在這件事情上要進一步了解並且掌握狀況不知道主委你有沒有聽過這個新聞"},{"start":247.683,"end":260.835,"text":"這個鋼鐵人那個籃球隊鋼鐵人那個沒關係你一定知道對那個反正這個如果有我們國立大學的球隊被港資或中資收購這是我們第一次聽到的轉讓出賽權利對你們第一次聽到對不對"},{"start":264.618,"end":269.341,"text":"我們辦公室希望透過公開的質詢讓陸委會知道這個事情我要再次強調他絕對不會只是個案我認為有非常多的可能性在後續會發生怎麼說呢事實上我們來看這個我幫你整理這個表格的意思是這樣"},{"start":284.07,"end":312.764,"text":"不是只有足球 事實上排球在台灣由單項協會所主辦的企業聯賽他們都有機會代表台灣去參加所謂國際體育組織所辦理的亞洲賽事也就是他們會代表台灣參加國際賽事而這些球隊背後可能是中資或港資就入委會在維持台灣國安的角度你們認為有沒有疑慮啊"},{"start":313.624,"end":326.77,"text":"還是你覺得沒關係這個案子反正不管是港資中資按照我們兩條例或是港澳關係條例這種投資都必須要由我們許可"},{"start":327.579,"end":350.287,"text":"這個叫投審會機制但是回到剛剛台體大那個完全不用走投審會機制他就是私下就轉讓出去了因為他是學校的球隊所以我認為未來會發展出來的樣態可能會非常多元在我們還沒有意識到這裡已經有滲透的可能性的時候他事實上已經發生了怎麼這麼說呢因為事實上在台中明後年即將落成一個足球園區"},{"start":352.116,"end":368.417,"text":"而這個大型的足球園區他到時候一定需要相關團隊去經營所以假設我用一個比較壞心來想如果我今天是要做滲透的人我在台中先拗有一個球隊我到時候是可不可以去經營這個園區而我拗有這個球隊背後老闆其實是港資跟中資"},{"start":369.799,"end":383.234,"text":"所以我要提醒陸委會今天真的是友善的提醒來我們來看一下關於這個台體大的案子我們辦公室後續會願意把相關資料交給陸委會我們希望你們從公安的角度協助我們去理解這個案子後續其他的問題"},{"start":384.656,"end":406.289,"text":"第二个关于中国企业在国际的收购持有运动团队的做法我们想要拜托陆委会有没有机会在三个月内协同教育部针对台湾的职业还有企业联赛球队的所有权资金来源进行掌握跟制度性的监控跟相关报告因为这可能过往不在你们的业务规范或者是想象的内容之内"},{"start":407.7,"end":432.72,"text":"我想中資來台投資我想這個應該都不在許可範圍是那我們對於中資來台港資來台除了這個投資許可之外按照兩條例第40條之一他要成立分工事和辦事處那我們對這個查處呢我們首先要跟主管機關來了解"},{"start":433.18,"end":458.776,"text":"所以這種形態比較特別對 沒錯 我就說台體大這個案子非常特別所以我們是不是來跟主管機關一起來瞭解這個案子再跟委員來回覆好 那還有我剛剛說的這些企業聯賽的部分我覺得因為之後我們運動部會有所謂全民體育署我們會有更多運動的資源在這所謂企業聯賽當中這也是我們所擔心的如果台體大只是他們試水溫的一個起點 一個敲門磚而我們行政機關都沒有發現後續他們可能就發現這裡有破口"},{"start":462.819,"end":469.047,"text":"他們就可以從這裡切入是好嗎好謝謝委員那我們再把相關資訊跟你們討論好謝謝陳委員謝謝主委謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":794,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時49分）謝謝主席。有請陸委會主委，邱主委，謝謝。"],["主席：邱主委有請。"],["邱主任委員垂正：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：剛剛徐欣瑩委員特別問到，兩岸之間有沒有所謂的私下傳話？有沒有密室協商？我很好奇，身為國家重要中央民意代表等級的立法委員，如果整團十幾個人，在野黨帶去密室協商，關起門來講什麼，我們都不知道，則陸委會可以怎麼協助國人，確保這件事情是沒有安全疑慮的？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，我們一直很期待立法院能夠提報涉密的委員，去中國大陸時依照兩岸條例第九條的相關機制來做許可審查，但是五院除了立法院沒有提報，其他都已經提報了。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，很可惜。不過民進黨團在這件事情上，已經表達過立場。我們完全尊重您的建議，也認為五院都必須同等對待。在面對境外敵對勢力這件事情上，我也認為在野黨應該共同支持。不過因為剛剛是徐欣瑩委員問這一題，我就忍不住好奇，國民黨總召帶著國民黨委員出訪這件事，我認為是有國安疑慮的，但這不是我今天要問的問題。我要分享的是另一件事，可能在你們過往涉及的業務範圍內，沒有意識到這裡也有國安危機。","在2022年，職籃高雄鋼鐵人有港資案，這件事情不知道你有沒有印象？當時你們處理的方法非常明快、果決，但面對陸資和港資進駐臺灣運動團隊，不知道你們後續有沒有其他掌握？我這個指控其來有自。事實上這幾年我們看到非常多中資，花很多錢大舉收購世界各地的球隊。我們都知道收購球隊，絕對不只是為了收購球隊，它背後的政治文化配套，其實是綁在一起的。這個過往的滲透手法，其實全世界都已經看得非常清楚了。","去年5月，我們辦公室收到一則陳情，來自臺中的國立臺灣體育運動大學。他們在2024年把臺灣乙級足球聯賽的參賽資格，從學校端轉賣給豐匯體育有限公司，同時在去年5月31日，中華足協也做了這個公告。我們收到陳情後，就積極向教育部進行了解。臺體大怎麼可以做這樣的事情？怎麼可以把足球協會乙級聯賽的參賽資格還有球員的權利轉讓給民間公司？到底內部審核發生了什麼事情？當時教育部高教司做了一些行政調查，但調查結果我們是不滿意的，我們辦公室後續會再持續追蹤。","我們來看一下這個公司到底是什麼樣的公司？相關的合約內容請主委您看一下，乙方也就是豐匯體育有限公司的代表者馮世文。這個案子真的非常非常誇張，當時在轉讓權利的時候，簽名就只有球隊教練一個人。這件事情爆發出來之後，副校長與校長才知道。當然學校不是您所主管的業務。沒關係，我們繼續往下看，馮世文是誰呢？馮世文是豐匯體育有限公司的代表人，但他同時也是另外一個港資跟中資的發言人。如果我們往下繼續追查，我們懷疑國立大學的球隊疑似遭到港資收購。我們認為陸委會在這件事情上要進一步了解，並且掌握狀況，不知道主委有沒有聽過這個新聞？"],["邱主任委員垂正：這個鋼鐵人、那個籃球隊……"],["陳委員培瑜：鋼鐵人那個你一定知道。"],["邱主任委員垂正：如果有我們國立大學的球隊被港資或中資收購，這是我們第一次聽到。"],["陳委員培瑜：轉讓出賽權利，你們第一次聽到對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：這個案子我們會再跟委員了解……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒關係，主委，我們辦公室希望透過公開的質詢，讓陸委會知道這件事情。我要再次強調，這絕對不只是個案，我認為有非常多的可能性在後續會發生。怎麼說呢？請看我幫你整理的這張表格，不是只有足球，像排球，由單項協會主辦的企業聯賽，也有機會代表臺灣參加國際體育組織辦的亞洲賽事，也就是他們會代表臺灣參加國際賽事，而這些球隊背後可能是中資或港資。就陸委會在維護臺灣國安的角度，你們認為有沒有疑慮？還是你覺得沒關係？"],["邱主任委員垂正：這個案子不管是港資或中資，按照我們兩岸條例或港澳關係條例，這種投資都必須經由我們的許可。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個叫投審會機制，但剛剛提到的臺體大案子，完全不走投審會機制，私下就轉讓出去了，因為它是學校的球隊，所以我認為未來會發展出來的樣態可能會非常多元。在我們還沒有意識到這裡有滲透可能性時，它事實上已經發生了。怎麼說呢？因為臺中明後年即將落成一個足球園區，而這個大型足球園區到時候一定需要相關團隊去經營。假設我用一個比較壞心來想，如果我今天是要做滲透的人，我先在臺中擁有一支球隊，那我到時候可不可以去經營這個園區？而這支球隊背後的老闆其實是港資跟中資，所以我要提醒陸委會，今天真的是友善的提醒。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：關於臺體大的案子，我們辦公室願意把相關資料交給陸委會。我們希望你們從國安的角度，協助我們去理解後續其他的問題。","第二個，關於中國企業在國際收購、，持有運動團隊的做法，我們想要拜託陸委會，有沒有機會在三個月內，協同教育部針對臺灣的職業與企業聯賽球隊的所有權、資金來源，進行掌握跟制度性的監控，並提出相關報告。因為過去這可能不在你們的業務規範，或者是想像的內容之內。"],["邱主任委員垂正：中資來臺投資，我想這個應該都不在許可範圍。我們對於中資來臺、港資來臺，除了投資許可之外，按照兩岸條例第四十條之一，它還要成立分公司和辦事處。我們對於這個查處，首先會跟主管機關來了解，這種型態比較特別，不過我們……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，沒錯，我就說臺體大這個案子非常特別。"],["邱主任委員垂正：所以我們會和主管機關一起來了解這個案子，再來向委員回覆。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，還有我剛剛說的企業聯賽部分，我覺得因為之後運動部會有所謂的全民體育署，會有更多運動資源在這些企業聯賽當中。這也是我們擔心的，如果臺體大只是他們試水溫的一個起點、一個敲門磚，而我們行政機關都沒發現，後續他們可能就會發現這裡有破口，他們就可以從這裡切入，好嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：那我們再把相關資訊提供給你們討論。"],["邱主任委員垂正：好，謝謝陳委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位我們請何欣純委員質詢、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","下一位我們請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-20","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","李坤城","邱志偉","陳雪生","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145101_00006"}}},{"id":"161736","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161736","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db89ac83e26acaa72732bc34272b9029b325d7a793ed122532efb3babcbf3bc8885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:39:34 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請你回答本席我想我們有很多的學者去大陸"},{"start":187.774,"end":203.783,"text":"看到中國大陸的你不能這樣兩岸到底可以私下傳話的行為嗎你就回答可以嗎我想他們有很多的建議建議歸建議我現在在問你兩岸可以有私下傳話的行為嗎"},{"start":208.094,"end":220.04,"text":"連這個都沒辦法回答不是你講那個私下傳話是什麼意思是法律的定義還是說我們日常兩岸互動的日常那如果是兩岸互動的日常當然"},{"start":224.022,"end":243.753,"text":"互動那不叫傳話因為這個出自於我們海基會董事長說兩岸的溝通管道中斷對話兩岸的對話管道中斷但是傳話的管道暢通這件事嚴重啊所以我針對你我就針對董事長這句話你覺得OK嗎"},{"start":246.734,"end":264.72,"text":"台商朋友像海基會經常接受很多台商朋友他們都會反映中國大陸的一些想法你接受反映這個不叫傳話也有很多的學者也有很多工協會的理事長負責人你不要再浪費本席的時間了所以政府有沒有授權傳話我們截至目前為沒有官方授權的"},{"start":271.226,"end":285.465,"text":"但是他們熱心跟你講這個是很多來避免誤解誤判我們要肯定兩岸之間你是指對岸官方來講不是我們官方傳話過去是哪一個"},{"start":286.325,"end":314.446,"text":"我是說這一種很自然的來給你反映意見的來傳對岸的想法這個很多啦但是沒有我們授權叫他去我們並沒有授權所以本席在這裡就是要釐清因為剛剛董事長在業務報告還有就是在報告的時候還有答詢的時候就一直強調所以你應該也認同兩岸之間不能夠有密室協商吧"},{"start":315.006,"end":331.911,"text":"那當然所以民進黨也不能施設任何所有的傳達我們都要體制透明否則我們怎麼知道請你私下傳某件事結果你講另外一件事而且所謂的賣台這個就是賣台"},{"start":333.933,"end":346.6,"text":"我們也很想知道賴清德總統說大公司併購小公司這件事是不是已經有私下在互相傳話"},{"start":348.708,"end":375.08,"text":"有沒有 我想委員就不要過度的衍生不必要的解讀其實他就是兩岸之間互動我們覺得應該要對等尊嚴 相互尊重而不要你提出一個前提我現在在問說你私下傳話你不能私下傳話沒有這個問題 也沒有授權的問題所以沒有政府授權傳話這件事"},{"start":378.038,"end":405.292,"text":"有沒有 截至目前為止是沒有授權的那未來也不可以吧要看情勢的發展只要對國家有利對兩岸有利要看情勢的發展所以對兩岸有利國家有利你們就可以密室協商喔當然我們會有一定的程序你可能忘記了民進黨政府多次強調兩岸無密室協商結果入委會主委說這個要看情勢而定"},{"start":405.712,"end":407.795,"text":"第四條之四未經同意不得與大陸地區的機關法人團體或其他機構協商簽署"},{"start":426.417,"end":439.553,"text":"協議所以你這個絕對不能密室協商沒有這個空間沒有密室協商一定是法治作業的你不能說看情況未來不管什麼情況都要體制透明而且要受到整個我們的監督"},{"start":440.49,"end":467.552,"text":"這是必然的最後浪費我真的蠻多時間再來就是賴總統最近有指示國安團隊要對在野黨簡報國安情勢本席對這點要肯定這是正確的一步但是我們認為這一步不能停留在形式你要能夠深化成為制度化的朝野安全對話機制"},{"start":469.213,"end":490.238,"text":"那所以有沒有考慮要建立一個國安共識平台跟委員報告這個目前有關於這個像我們在野黨領袖做這個國安簡報目前是由我們國安會正在作業當中我會把這個委員的意見跟他們反映"},{"start":491.439,"end":508.191,"text":"我們也很希望朝野之間我們在分歧中找到團結我們國安一定是朝野一致面對不分藍綠好大家有共識最後最後因為剛剛吳清明委員也有提到那我想很多區域委員都有碰到"},{"start":509.351,"end":523.605,"text":"現在主委口口聲聲要捍衛兩岸單一戶籍制度我們沒有反對這個但是你有沒有覺得做法上很擾民有沒有感受到有沒有接受到這樣很多的有我也跟委員這個確實是"},{"start":525.426,"end":552.278,"text":"超過30年來的這個整個問題我們一起解決其實快要到最後面了我們同意要用關懷柔性的方式完整的配套措施我們會主動我們現在除了打電話進來解決之外我們現在還要主動走出去很多的這方面的座談會來舉辦你那個制度做法執行面可不可以想得更完善是是是我們朝這個方面來努力好謝謝委員好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":703,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時39分）謝謝主席，本席有請海基會吳董事長。"],["主席：吳董事長有請。"],["吳董事長豊山：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：董事長好。剛剛您在業務報告還有吳琪銘委員質詢的時候，您都親口說出了兩岸對話的管道中斷，但是傳話的管道暢通。那本席想要請教，是誰授意你傳話？"],["吳董事長豊山：沒有人授意我傳話，我沒有主動……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有人授意你傳話，你說「傳話」？"],["吳董事長豊山：我沒有主動要人家去傳話，傳話的人都是主動來找我的，我認為這對兩岸合作有幫助……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你是說傳話人主動找你，那是……他主動找你，沒有人要你傳話，所以我們中央政府沒有人要你去傳話？"],["吳董事長豊山：對，沒有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那你怎麼知道傳話管道暢通？"],["吳董事長豊山：我說很多人基於好意、基於協助的意思，主動找我說他們可以幫忙傳話。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那你認為……"],["吳董事長豊山：那有些是對方要求他……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你認為可以傳話嗎？兩岸之間可以傳話嗎？"],["吳董事長豊山：這個事情很重要，你要讓我完整地表達，好不好？"],["徐委員欣瑩：可是你要掌握時間，我們時間有限。"],["吳董事長豊山：你一講話我不插斷，我講話你也不插斷，好不好？"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，你儘量講重點，好不好？"],["吳董事長豊山：……我說沒有人授權我跟對方傳話，可是我認為，在對話的管道中斷的情況之下，那麼有人傳話只有好處，沒有壞處。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不、不、不，兩岸怎麼可以暗渡陳倉！絕對不能傳話。兩岸不能夠有一條不透明、不合法、不負責任的兩岸密室協商管道，絕對不行！董事長，請您先……"],["吳董事長豊山：七十幾年來就是這個樣子啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：暫停，就先等一下。我們請邱主委，好不好？"],["主席：邱主委有請。"],["邱主任委員垂正：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：邱主委，請問兩岸之間可以用傳話嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員，是這樣的，我想兩岸過去都有……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不要浪費我的時間，我時間真的不多，好不好？"],["邱主任委員垂正：既有的溝通聯繫機制我們都維持住了，包括我們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那我就請問你可以私下傳話嗎？兩岸可以有私下傳話的行為嗎？請你回答本席。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想我們有很多學者去大陸，看到中國大陸的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不能……兩岸可以有私下傳話的行為嗎？你就回答，可以嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：他們有很多建議，包括臺商……"],["徐委員欣瑩：建議歸建議，我現在在問你，兩岸可以有私下傳話的行為嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：要看……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你連這個都沒有辦法回答啊？"],["邱主任委員垂正：不是，你講的那個私下傳話是什麼意思，是法律的定義還是兩岸互動的日常？如果是兩岸互動……"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然是……"],["邱主任委員垂正：互動的日常……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，當然……互動那不叫傳話，因為這個出自於我們海基會董事長說，兩岸的對話管道中斷，但是傳話的管道暢通。這件事嚴重啊！所以我就針對……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我知道……"],["徐委員欣瑩：董事長這句話，你覺得OK嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：包括非常多的臺商朋友，像海基會經常接受很多臺商朋友……他們都會反映中國大陸的一些想法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：接受反映，這個不叫傳話。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，有很多學者，也有很多公協會的理事長、負責人……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不要再浪費本席的時間了，所以政府有沒有授權傳話？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們截至目前為止沒有官方授權。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以……"],["邱主任委員垂正：但是他們熱心跟你講，這個是很多，來避免誤解、誤判，我們要肯定，兩岸之間……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你是指對岸官方來講，不是我們官方傳話過去，是哪一個？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我是說這一種很自然地來跟你反映意見的、來傳對岸的想法，這個很多。但是沒有我們授權叫他去，我們並沒有授權。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以本席在這裡就是要釐清，因為剛剛董事長在業務報告還有答詢的時候就一直強調。所以你應該也認同兩岸之間不能夠有密室協商吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：那當然。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：嗯。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以民進黨也不能私設任何……所有的傳達，我們都要體制透明，否則我們怎麼知道，請你私下傳某件事，結果你講另外一件事，所謂的賣臺，這個就是賣臺。那我們也很想知道，賴清德總統說大公司併購小公司，這一件事是不是已經有私下在互相傳話，有沒有？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想委員就不要過度地延伸……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我也不想。"],["邱主任委員垂正：也不做不必要的解讀。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我不了解，所以我請你回答。"],["邱主任委員垂正：其實就是兩岸之間互動，我們覺得應該要對等、尊嚴、相互尊重，而不要說你提出一個前提……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你現在講對了，我現在在問你私下傳話，你不能私下傳話嘛？"],["邱主任委員垂正：沒有、沒有這個問題，也沒有授權的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，所以沒有政府授權傳話這件事，有沒有？"],["邱主任委員垂正：截至目前為止是沒有授權的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那未來也不可以吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：要看情勢的發展，只要對國家有利、對兩岸有利，要看情勢的發展。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以對兩岸有利、國家有利，你們就可以密室協商喔？"],["邱主任委員垂正：當然我們會有一定的程序。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你可能忘記了，民進黨政府多次強調兩岸無密室協商，結果陸委會主委說這個要看情勢而定，這個……"],["邱主任委員垂正：當然你一定要把法制作業……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們的立場跟態度，你真的要搞清楚。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我知道您的意思……"],["徐委員欣瑩：還有兩岸人民……"],["邱主任委員垂正：但是我們不可能做到密室協商。"],["徐委員欣瑩：兩岸人民關係條例，我相信你很清楚，第四條之四，未經同意，不得與大陸地區的機關、法人團體或其他機構協商簽署協議，所以你絕對不能密室協商。"],["邱主任委員垂正：沒有這個空間，沒有密室協商，一定是法制作業。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你不能說看情況，未來不管什麼情況都要體制透明，而且要受到我們整個的監督。"],["邱主任委員垂正：這是必然的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：再來，賴總統最近有指示，國安團隊要對在野黨進行國安情勢的簡報。本席對這一點要予以肯定，這是正確的一步。但是我們認為，這一步不能停留在形式上，應該要深化，成為制度化的朝野安全對話機制。所以朝野之間有沒有考慮建立一個國安共識平台？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，有關向我們在野黨領袖進行國安簡報，現在國安會正在作業當中，我會把委員的意見跟他們反映。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。我們也很希望，朝野之間能在分歧中找到團結。我們的國家安全，一定是朝野一致面對、不分藍綠，大家有共識。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後，因為剛剛吳琪銘委員也有提到，我想很多區域委員都有碰到這個問題。現在主委口口聲聲說要捍衛兩岸單一戶籍制度，我們並不反對這個立場，但是你有沒有覺得做法上很擾民？有沒有感受到？有沒有接收到這樣的反映？應該要改進吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：有，跟委員報告，這確實是超過三十年來的問題，我們要一起解決，現在也快要進入最後階段了。我們同意用關懷、柔性的方式，搭配完整的配套措施。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，不要造成他們的困擾。"],["邱主任委員垂正：現在我們除了接受民眾打電話進來解決之外，也會主動走出去，舉辦很多這方面的座談會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：制度、做法及執行面，可不可以想得更完善？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我們朝這個方向來努力，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。","下一位我們請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-20","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","李坤城","邱志偉","陳雪生","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145101_00006"}}},{"id":"161735","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161735","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db7bbb8b84a229b28432bc34272b9029b325d7a793ed122532b919a22b82dabb035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殺人要賺錢還是要賺錢終止的是對話"},{"start":143.417,"end":167.919,"text":"對話所謂對話就是海際會跟對岸的對口單位海協會對話中止是2016年開始他的理由是我們不接受九二共識到現在為止也是這個理由可是我們政府是認為九二共識裡頭沒有中華民國的位置"},{"start":170.185,"end":192.009,"text":"我們是這樣不接受不過我個人認為交流、對話、和平這三個都是連結在一起的所以應該窮盡辦法不過我是了解到社外的關係隨時變化所以審慎樂觀"},{"start":195.369,"end":221.339,"text":"對因為本期比較關心的就是從2016年我們就終止了兩岸的對話那我是希望說在吳董事長你的提倡就是中道和平共存共榮的理念能恢復兩岸的對話以及兩岸的交流這是我們是比較關心的因為我們兩岸還是要處於大家共存共榮的"},{"start":225.4,"end":246.649,"text":"就是這個角色一定要扮演好那這也是我們吳董事長所關心的那至於說30幾年來共同就在我們服務的案件就有800多萬件那證明我們海際會扮演的角色還是非常重要比如說我們的對岸的海協會"},{"start":247.729,"end":258.413,"text":"要怎樣透過關係怎樣有一個我們的管道來保持這個暢通的溝通管道這一點應該是比較重要吧我剛才有報告 裡頭有一句話就是兩會對話中斷但傳話暢通那麼這些傳話"},{"start":277.591,"end":291.12,"text":"也許在某一個時間會發生效用到現在為止沒有效用不過我的職責就是想辦法去恢復所以很認真在做"},{"start":292.401,"end":317.331,"text":"好啦我們共同的努力共同期待因為畢竟我們台商還有很多都在中國大陸他們一些的服務案件我們還是要照樣的去運作這是我們兩岸的共存共榮的理念啦好謝謝我們董事長辛苦你了真的很辛苦好謝謝好請我們入委會邱主委有請"},{"start":321.434,"end":343.232,"text":"主委好好 主委好主委本席比較關心的就是我們大陸的配偶因為我們三個月要繳交大陸的戶籍的處級證明台灣有很多是我們大陸的新娘的外配其實我們那時候"},{"start":344.861,"end":364.202,"text":"移民署要寄一萬兩千多件那你一寄出來你整個海基會200線全部都報滿那這樣我就是要求說我們陸委會是不是一個政策下去跟移民署還有我們海基會還有我們陸委會大家要溝通是不是"},{"start":366.069,"end":388.778,"text":"坤坯或是他們現在還面臨一個問題,就是他們過去已經一二十年了一二十年你又要叫他當處級,有的人事地務都變了所以說在這個部分,我們還要有一個配套再來實施,要怎樣來扶"},{"start":392.271,"end":406.376,"text":"來來來來輔導他們可以取得我們更更加合法完整不然你又煮了要再回去的時候有的都是一二十年這個部分是請我們陸委會要去考量"},{"start":407.999,"end":430.384,"text":"謝謝委員 這個非常感謝我們對於陸配有關於依法要把這個對岸除籍證明拿回來以確保他台灣的身份那當然這是依法行政那我們是在疫情期間發現疫情期間有很多剛結婚的人無法回去我們基於人道立場"},{"start":432.044,"end":450.569,"text":"不能說三個月內一定要把初期證明拿回來這個是不可能那疫情之後我們就協助這些沒有完成初期證明拿回來的這些陸配開始協助他們然而我們就開始清查以往的案例發現我們總共台灣有36萬"},{"start":458.095,"end":484.933,"text":"對結婚我們發出去的身份證有14萬張但是拿回出去證明只有13萬份還有1萬的這個差距到底是怎麼了為什麼沒有落實執法那所以我們發現包括過去的在2004年那時候我們兩條立和大一個翻修那個之前也沒有回去所以我們從去年10月就開始宣導清查的作業"},{"start":485.874,"end":506.514,"text":"其實已經完成了第一階段第二階段了那也讓我們陸配在兩岸間因為我們兩岸條例是一種單一身份的制度這個是維繫兩岸人流人別重要的基礎如果這個被破壞的話我們無法進行"},{"start":507.214,"end":533.325,"text":"兩岸的交流所以我們想說這個事情是繼續蓋下來呢還是我們勇敢的面對問題承擔責任找出解決問題的方法把30年來的問題把它解決掉所以我們跟委員一樣的想法要有一個完整的配套措施那對於現在不方便的還有資料不清楚的或者說他刑方不"},{"start":534.065,"end":549.952,"text":"不變的或是年邁低收入戶的我們都有一些替代方案那有些人現在也許比如說他在懷孕他在就學就業或是人在監獄裡面我們都有一些延長的方案只要"},{"start":550.672,"end":572.107,"text":"他有任何自愛難行我們包括海基會、移民署、陸委會都會盡最大的努力來協助他完成符合我們法律的要求我們也想說他在台灣的身份一定是合法的他才有可能最後安居樂業這是我們的初衷那我們持續的關懷、輔導、協助這個都不變"},{"start":575.168,"end":590.458,"text":"好謝謝主委因為在我們的選區在我們新北市還是很多我們的陸配他們遇到的問題那我們還是來協助他們來取得一個委員也可以把你個案提供給我們協助好的好謝謝我們邱主委謝謝謝謝吳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":682,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（11時29分）召委、與會同仁，請海基會吳董事長。"],["主席：吳董事長有請。"],["吳委員琪銘：吳董事長，你好。吳董事長，你到海基會從去年到現在，你也是新聞人，還有你的經歷都非常的完整，也非常的辛苦，所以我今天要再次肯定你。但是我們海基會扮演的角色非常重要，我看到你在文章提到中道和平、共存共榮的兩岸理念，展開兩岸關係深層的思考與穩健的立場，今天更宜恢復兩岸的對話。我們賴清德總統昨天在記者會也特別的重申，兩岸還是要再交流。董事長，未來兩岸的交流情形，因為從2016年開始兩岸制度化的交流都已經停擺，我們是否能再恢復兩岸的交流？我請董事長說明一下，好不好？"],["吳董事長豊山：我剛才一開始的時候就跟各位委員報告，33年來兩岸的交流從未中斷，根據我們的統計，33年來交流所產生的事務，經過海基會處理的多達八百七十八萬多件，像去年就多達三十萬四千多件，所以跟委員報告，交流部分從來沒有停止。也許可以這樣講，兩岸政府不好，但是老百姓要結婚的還是要結婚，商人要賺錢的還是要賺錢，中止的是對話，所謂對話就是海基會跟對岸的對口單位海協會對話中止，是從2016年開始，他的理由是我們不接受九二共識，到現在為止也是這個理由，可是我們政府是認為在九二共識裡頭沒有中華民國的位置，我們因為這樣不接受。不過，我個人認為交流、對話、和平這三個都是連結在一起的，所以應該還是要窮盡辦法。不過，我是了解到涉外的關係是隨時變化，所以審慎樂觀。"],["吳委員琪銘：對，因為本席比較關心從2016年我們就中止了兩岸對話，我是希望吳董事長提倡的中道和平、共存共榮的理念能恢復兩岸的對話及兩岸的交流，這是我們比較關心的，因為兩岸還是要處於大家共存共榮的狀態，海基會這個角色一定要扮演好，這也是我們吳董事長所關心的。至於說三十幾年來你們服務的案件就有八百多萬件，那證明我們海基會扮演的角色還是非常重要，比如和對岸的海協會要怎樣保持暢通的溝通管道，這一點應該是比較重要吧？"],["吳董事長豊山：我剛才的報告裡有一句話，就是「兩會對話中斷，但傳話暢通」，這些傳話也許在某一個時間會發生效用，雖然到現在為止沒有效用，不過我的職責就是想辦法去恢復，所以認真在做。"],["吳委員琪銘：好啦，我們共同努力、共同期待，因為畢竟我們還有很多台商在中國大陸，他們的服務案件，我們還是要照樣的去運作，這是基於兩岸共存共榮的理念。謝謝吳董事長，辛苦你了。","接下來請陸委會。"],["主席：邱主委有請。"],["邱主任委員垂正：吳委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：主委好，本席比較關心的就是大陸的配偶要在三個月內繳交大陸戶籍的除籍證明，臺灣有很多大陸新娘、外配，其實那時候移民署要寄一萬兩千多件，結果一寄出來，海基會兩百線全部爆滿，我是要求陸委會是不是一個政策下去，跟移民署、海基會溝通。他們現在還面臨一個問題，就是他們有些人過來已經一、二十年了，一、二十年你不叫他登、除籍，有的人、事、地、物都變了，所以在這部分，我是覺得我們還要有一個配套來實施，輔導他們取得合法、完整的身分，不然，有的資料都是一、二十年前的了，這個部分請陸委會考量。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員，我們對於陸配依法要把對岸除籍證明拿回來，以確保他臺灣的身分，這是依法行政，我們是在疫情期間發現有很多剛結婚的人無法回去，基於人道立場，不能說一定要他們在三個月內把除籍證明拿回來，這不可能，所以疫情之後我們就開始協助這些沒有把除籍證明拿回來的陸配，然而我們就開始清查以往的案例，發現臺灣總共有36萬對結婚，我們發出去的身分證有14萬張，但是拿回除籍證明的只有13萬份，還有1萬的差距，到底是怎麼了？為什麼沒有落實執法？我們發現包括過去在2004年，那時候兩岸條例有一個翻修，那之前也沒有回去，所以我們從去年10月就開始宣導清查的作業，其實已經完成了第一階段、第二階段，也讓我們陸配……在兩岸間，因為兩岸條例是一種單一身分的制度，這個是維繫兩岸人流、人別重要的基礎，如果這個被破壞的話，我們無法進行兩岸的交流。所以我們想說這個事情是繼續蓋下來，還是我們勇敢地面對問題、承擔責任，找出解決問題的方法，把三十年來的問題解決掉？","我們跟委員有一樣的想法，要有一個完整的配套措施。對於現在不方便的還有資料不清楚的，或是他行方不便的、年邁、低收入戶的，我們都有一些替代方案。有些人現在比如懷孕、就學、就業或是人在監獄裡面，我們都有一些延長的方案，只要他有任何窒礙難行，我們包括海基會、移民署、陸委會都會盡最大的努力協助他完成並符合我們法律的要求。我們也想說他在臺灣的身分一定是合法的，他才有可能最後安居樂業，這是我們的初衷，我們持續地關懷、輔導、協助，這個都不變。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝主委。因為在我們的選區，新北市還是有很多陸配。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：這是他們遇到的問題，那我們還是協助他們取得一個……"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，委員也可以把你的個案提供給我們協助。"],["吳委員琪銘：好的，謝謝邱主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：好，謝謝吳委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳琪銘委員。","下一位請徐欣瑩員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-20","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","李坤城","邱志偉","陳雪生","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145101_00006"}}},{"id":"161734","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161734","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db79c99e5a6cdd3daa32bc34272b9029b325d7a793ed122532fbd5a51b102a7b385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"11:20:32 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我們請陸委會邱主委邱主委請學長好主委好 剛剛在陸委會的這個報告裡面你們一再的強調兩岸互不隸屬 反對統戰滲透可是賴總統卻用這個大公司小公司的合併來去形容兩岸的競合"},{"start":32.139,"end":49.033,"text":"賴總統說中共中國是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司所以如果大的公司要併購小的公司大陸應該要提條件而不是台灣在提條件請問主委你是否認同賴總統所提的併購說的說法來形容兩岸合併與否"},{"start":50.594,"end":72.883,"text":"跟委員報告我想在許多地方他們有詮釋兩樣的互動重點在對等尊嚴要相互尊重而不是說你塞了一個我無法接受的前提這個前提是要消滅中華民國的前提這個前提是要台灣成為中華人民共和國的一部分我想"},{"start":73.743,"end":90.257,"text":"我們無法接受這種政治群體所以主委您認不認同賴總統公私併購說的說法我認同這個他的兩岸政策的主軸就是希望兩岸能夠在對等尊嚴所以說現在公私併購說的說法就是我們兩岸關係現在最新的立場嗎"},{"start":96.294,"end":109.581,"text":"我講他是一個比喻這希望兩岸能夠對等尊嚴相互尊重來開啟任何健康有序的交流那請問一下併購說是不是也意味著賴政府統一統一呢"},{"start":113.388,"end":131.291,"text":"不必過度解讀那請問要怎麼解讀我剛剛說了就是對等尊嚴我們一直呼籲中國大陸一個重要的事情就是政治中華民國的客觀事實存在在針對訪談的時候提出這樣的併勾說的說法那請問我們要怎麼解讀"},{"start":132.554,"end":150.304,"text":"我們的解讀就是兩岸互動要在對等尊嚴相互尊重請問一下剛剛主委已經有提到我看很多委員在提針對這個大陸的我們台灣的藝人在大陸的一些轉發的人就說應該要處罰應該要這個可能違反什麼相關的規定那請問一下"},{"start":152.186,"end":168.263,"text":"賴總統這樣的言論是不是以默許自己可以當作是中國的一部分只是在談價格跟條件這樣有沒有違反你剛剛講的建議委員不要這個過度延伸的解讀我們最主要還是對等尊嚴相互尊重所以您不認同賴總統的併購說的說法是嗎"},{"start":171.506,"end":188.573,"text":"不要外延到那種意義的去解讀因為我覺得很奇怪我們只要簡單的一句話就會被你們扣上什麼賣台啦親中賣台的大帽子總統都已經講了說可以併購了幾乎就等於說是只要你價格談出來你只要價格好"},{"start":189.053,"end":204.396,"text":"我就可以來併購我那這樣子的言行你們還認為我們不必過度解讀那為什麼我們多次跟中國大陸要求你要用文明的價值跟方式來說服台灣你的對台政策而不是"},{"start":205.609,"end":220.589,"text":"不答應我前提我就文攻武嚇我想這個也是中國大陸被國際社會被民主國家圍堵的原因主委那請問一下以後我們可不可以都可以提到這個我們不要提統一我們就提併購這樣可以嗎"},{"start":223.973,"end":242.63,"text":"就是我們以後這樣提啊那不管是合意併購或者是敵意併購比如說武力統一我們就算是敵意併購和平統一就算是這個合意併購以後我們是不是都可以用併購來代替統一這樣的字眼這樣就不會有事呢委員不用用這個公私併購來看待兩岸的"},{"start":243.471,"end":271.291,"text":"因为我觉得赖总统这样的言行其实就让大家都会觉得会让国际社会觉得误以为台湾已经在准备变卖主权了我觉得赖总统这段时间的这个言论大家知道赖总统不是这个意思那是什么意思请你说就是你中国大陆要对台湾的对台政策要尊重要正视我们中华民国客观事实存在你要用文明的方式"},{"start":272.808,"end":289.856,"text":"來用文明的方式就可以併購 是嗎不是 而是你不能軍機線擾台你不能外交打壓 經濟脅迫 社會滲透一連串的認知作戰 灰色地帶侵擾我現在請教的主委就是針對賴總統的併購說您認不認為他這個部分有失言他只是一個比喻 我剛剛說過了那你認不認同"},{"start":300.762,"end":315.12,"text":"他是在強調對岸應該要以對等尊嚴相互尊重他要的是一個程序正義反正我們都可以講併購大公司可以來併購小公司只要條件談得攏"},{"start":316.121,"end":321.323,"text":"建議委員不要這樣無限上綱解讀我覺得你這應該是跟總統講不是跟我講第二個就是剛剛我們也聽到很多委員就是請教這個主委就是你現在有發了一個通知建議我們的政府官員不要出席海峽論壇剛剛也有民進黨委員特別提到去年代表這個到"},{"start":340.652,"end":345.058,"text":"張立善 雲林縣長張立善參加海峽論壇他特別提到那請問您知道去年張立善縣長去參加海峽論壇主要是做什麼嗎他主要是要去行銷雲林的農特產品為我們弱勢的農漁民找出路"},{"start":357.595,"end":363.982,"text":"所以說您現在說好不建議我們這些政府可以出席了那是不是就針對這些農漁民我們連幫他找出連幫他行銷農作產品都不能做了呢跟委員報告我們是建議這樣"},{"start":372.512,"end":381.957,"text":"你如果挑這個他海峽論壇去那他設定的這個統戰平台那我們也想問他有設定說不讓我們行銷農特產品嗎沒有啊張縣長也在這個海峽論壇的公開的這個這個發表當中他也提到了我們雲林我想他可以挑其他的時間去為什麼不能這個時候去因為這個是他"},{"start":397.846,"end":422.468,"text":"張開來的一個統戰平台嘛你沒有自主性啦你就任他這個安排張立善縣長提到要行銷我們的農特產品大陸也沒有要求他不准說所以這有什麼說我們還受到他的一些約束其實我覺得不逼我想剛剛主委一直提到我們要健康有序的交流你也一直強調兩岸要交流可是做法卻是背道而馳"},{"start":423.029,"end":427.461,"text":"那我請教一下如果今年有縣市政府提出要去參加海峽論壇您會不會核准"},{"start":429.546,"end":454.944,"text":"我跟委員報告我們是建議他不出席但是他如果堅持要出席我們就會跟他規勸相關的風險請他做好風險的準備所以如果他遵守相關的規定的話要符合我們兩岸的規範我們也會呼籲他要重視我們台灣人的民意注意社會觀感 國際視聽"},{"start":457.485,"end":462.629,"text":"共同來維護臺灣整體的利益也就是說只要剛剛您說這些相關規定我們這些縣市政府只要符合跟你們申請的話你們是會核准的是嗎我們會來看他申請的事由啦比如說你說要去推薦隆特產品"},{"start":474.958,"end":491.307,"text":"那我們就會問說你上次去推薦隆特產品真的有賣得很好嗎還是對岸口惠賣得好不好我覺得你陸委會也要負很大的責任如果你不讓兩岸關係變成這樣的兵凶戰危的話也不會造成這樣的一個對立所以我覺得你把這個題目這樣問題丟出來我覺得非常的失職因為賣得好不好不是單方面的那我們還是要爭取每一個可以行銷我們希望兩岸正常健康有序的交流對 但不是口中說一套"},{"start":503.854,"end":519.804,"text":"不管是口中做一套是真正要拿出誠意來好不好我覺得農漁民已經非常弱勢了好不容易有這麼大一個市場這麼好的一個平台可以去行銷農特產品請陸委會不要干擾也不要斷了我們農民的生計斷的是中國大陸說斷就斷讓農民血本無歸這就是有風險所以我們要跟地方政府講好風險在哪裡當然有風險但是呢事實上只要核准我覺得只要只要合乎規定也不該不合准我們會提醒"},{"start":533.433,"end":533.514,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":616,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（11時20分）謝謝主席，請陸委會邱主委。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭）：邱主委有請。"],["邱主任委員垂正：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：主委好。剛剛在陸委會的報告裡面，你們一再地強調兩岸互不隸屬，反對統戰滲透，可是賴總統卻用大公司、小公司的合併來形容兩岸的競合。賴總統說：「中共、中國是比較大的公司，臺灣是比較小的公司，所以如果大的公司要併購小的公司，大陸應該要提條件，而不是臺灣在提條件。」請問主委，你是否認同賴總統所提的，以併購的說法來形容兩岸合併與否？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，我想在許多地方他們有所詮釋，但兩岸互動的重點在對等尊嚴，要相互尊重，而不是說你塞了一個我無法接受的前提，這個前提是要消滅中華民國，這個前提是要臺灣成為中華人民共和國的一部分，我想我們無法接受這種政治前提。"],["許委員宇甄：所以主委您認不認同賴總統公司併購說的說法？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我認同他的兩岸政策主軸，就是希望兩岸能夠在對等尊嚴的前提下，啟動健康有序的交流跟對話。"],["許委員宇甄：所以現在公司併購說的說法，就是我們兩岸關係最新的立場嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想他是一個比喻，是希望兩岸能夠對等尊嚴、相互尊重，來開啟任何健康有序的交流。"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下，併購說是不是也意味著賴政府同意統一呢？"],["邱主任委員垂正：不必過度解讀。"],["許委員宇甄：那請問要怎麼解讀？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我剛剛說了，就是對等尊嚴，我們一直呼籲中國大陸一件重要的事情，就是要正視中華民國客觀存在的事實。"],["許委員宇甄：那可不可以請教你，針對賴總統在訪談的時候，提出這樣併購說的說法，請問我們要怎麼解讀？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們的解讀就是兩岸互動要在對等尊嚴、相互尊重的原則下……"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下，剛剛主委已經有提到，我看很多委員也都有提到，針對我們臺灣的藝人在大陸有一些轉發的行為，就說應該要處罰，可能違反什麼相關的規定。請問一下賴總統這樣的言論，是不是已經默許自己可以當作是中國的一部分，只是在談價格跟條件？這樣有沒有違反你剛剛講的反滲透法？"],["邱主任委員垂正：建議委員不要過度延伸的解讀，我們最主要還是對等尊嚴，相互尊重。"],["許委員宇甄：所以您不認同賴總統這個併購說的說法，是嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：不要向外延伸到那種意義去作解讀，這是不對的。"],["許委員宇甄：因為我覺得很奇怪，我們只要簡單的一句話，就會被你們扣上什麼親中賣臺的大帽子，而總統都已經說可以併購了，幾乎就等於只要你價格談出來、只要你價格好，就可以來併購我，這樣子的言行，你們還認為我們不必過度解讀？為什麼只許州官放火、不許百姓點燈？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們多次跟中國大陸要求，要用文明的價值跟方式來說服臺灣你的對臺政策，而不是不答應你的前提就文攻武嚇，我想這個也是中國大陸被國際社會、被民主國家圍堵的原因。"],["許委員宇甄：那請問一下，以後我們可不可以提到這個，我們不要提統一，我們就提併購，這樣可以嗎？我們以後就這樣提，不管是合意併購或者是敵意併購，比如說武力統一，我們就算是敵意併購；和平統一，就算是合意併購，以後我們是不是都可以用併購來代替統一這樣的字眼？是不是這樣就不會有事呢？"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員，不要用公司併購來看待兩岸的互動，我們還是強調……"],["許委員宇甄：因為我覺得賴總統這樣的言行，其實就會讓大家覺得，也會讓國際社會誤以為臺灣已經在準備變賣主權了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員不用過度解讀。"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得賴總統這段時間的言論……"],["邱主任委員垂正：大家都知道賴總統不是這個意思。"],["許委員宇甄：那是什麼意思？請你說明。"],["邱主任委員垂正：就是中國大陸的對臺政策，對臺灣要尊重，要正視我們中華民國客觀存在的事實，你要用文明的方式來……"],["許委員宇甄：用文明的方式就可以併購，是嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：不是，是你不能軍機艦擾臺、外交打壓、經濟脅迫、社會滲透、一連串的認知作戰、灰色地帶侵擾、複合性的施壓……"],["許委員宇甄：主委，我現在請教的是，針對賴總統的併購說，您認不認為他這個部分有失言？"],["邱主任委員垂正：他只是一個比喻，我剛剛說過了。"],["許委員宇甄：那你認不認同？"],["邱主任委員垂正：他是在強調對岸應該要以對等尊嚴、相互尊重……"],["許委員宇甄：所以你也不敢回答啦……"],["邱主任委員垂正：他要的是一個程序正義。"],["許委員宇甄：反正以後我們就是都可以講併購，就是大公司可以來併購小公司，只要條件談得攏，是這樣嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：建議委員不要這樣無限上綱解讀。"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得你應該去跟總統講，不是跟我講。","第二個，剛剛我們也聽到很多委員請教主委，你現在有發了一個通知，建議我們的政府官員不要出席海峽論壇，剛剛也有民進黨委員特別提到，去年的代表雲林縣長張麗善去參加海峽論壇這件事。請問您知道去年張麗善縣長去參加海峽論壇主要是做什麼嗎？他主要是去行銷雲林的農特產品，為我們弱勢的農漁民找出路。所以您現在說不建議我們這些政府官員出席，是不是針對這些農漁民，我們連幫他找出路、連幫他行銷農特產品都不能做了呢？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，我們是建議這樣，你如果挑海峽論壇去，它設定的統戰平臺，我們也想問……"],["許委員宇甄：它有設定不讓我們行銷農特產品嗎？沒有啊！張縣長也在海峽論壇公開發表時提到我們雲林有什麼特產。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想他可以挑其他的時間去啦。"],["許委員宇甄：為什麼不能這個時候去？"],["邱主任委員垂正：因為這是他張開來的一個統戰平台嘛，你沒有自主性，你就任他安排。"],["許委員宇甄：張麗善縣長提到要行銷我們的農特產品，大陸也沒有要求他不准說，所以這有什麼說我們還受到他的一些約束。剛剛主委一直提到我們要健康有序的交流，一直強調兩岸要交流，可是作法卻是背道而馳。那我請教一下，如果今年有縣市政府提出要去參加海峽論壇，您會不會核准？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我跟委員報告，我們是建議他不出席，但是他如果堅持要出席，我們就以相關的風險加以規勸，請他做好風險的準備。"],["許委員宇甄：所以如果他遵守相關規定的話，你是不是會核准？"],["邱主任委員垂正：要符合我們兩岸的規範，我們也會呼籲他要重視我們臺灣人的民意，注意社會觀感、國際視聽，共同來維護臺灣整體的利益。"],["許委員宇甄：也就是說只要剛剛您說的這些相關規定，我們的縣市政府只要符合了，跟你們申請的話，你們是會核准的，是嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們會看他申請的事由，比如要去推介農特產品，那我們就會問，你上次去推介農特產品，真的有賣得很好嗎？還是對岸口惠而實不至？"],["許委員宇甄：主委，賣得好不好，我覺得你陸委會也要負很大的責任，如果你不讓兩岸關係變成這樣兵凶戰危的話，也不會造成這樣的對立，所以我覺得你把這個問題丟出來，我覺得非常的失職，因為賣得好不好不是單方面的，我們還是要爭取每一個可以行銷農特產品的……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們希望兩岸正常、健康有序的交流……"],["許委員宇甄：對，但不是口中說一套……"],["邱主任委員垂正：應該去統戰化、去政治化。"],["許委員宇甄：不可以口中說一套，而是真正要拿出誠意來，好不好？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得農漁民已經非常弱勢了，好不容易有這麼大一個市場、這麼好的一個平台可以去行銷農特產品，請陸委會不要干擾，也不要斷了我們農漁民的生計。"],["邱主任委員垂正：斷的是中國大陸，他說斷就斷，讓農民血本無歸，這就是有風險……"],["許委員宇甄：如果兩岸交流能夠有互惠平等的話……"],["邱主任委員垂正：所以我們要跟地方政府講好風險在哪裡。"],["許委員宇甄：當然有風險，但是事實上我覺得只要合乎規定，你們不該不核准，好嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們會提醒，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員。","下一位請吳琪銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-20","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","李坤城","邱志偉","陳雪生","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145101_00006"}}},{"id":"161733","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161733","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db8b0077a7a147ab6d32bc34272b9029b325d7a793ed1225327a999415d811f7405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:11:03 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其實剛剛就出現了所謂的不一致性這只是我的開頭而已"},{"start":165.536,"end":191.682,"text":"今年的3月13號我們的賴總統賴17條強硬的表態把對岸定義成為所謂的境外敵對勢力並且提出5項統戰威脅跟17項的因應策略這俗稱的賴17條嘛對不對照理來講是順著但是到了5月17號他接受所謂的網紅敏迪的專訪的時候卻突然變成了大公司並小公司的時候應該要開好條件欸這個就開始出現所謂的不一致性啦"},{"start":192.282,"end":203.988,"text":"如果中國大陸在賴清德總統定調又是兩國互不隸屬又是境外敵對勢力那怎麼可以允許併購行為呢主委 這樣子的一個說法是你的建議嗎跟委員報告"},{"start":208.103,"end":223.994,"text":"我想兩岸互動重點就是在對等尊嚴那麼賴總統昨天也在強調只要對等尊嚴歡迎中國大陸跟來台進行各種的合作交流我們也期許"},{"start":226.055,"end":247.361,"text":"在對等尊嚴的情況下兩岸可以透過交流取代圍堵透過對話取代對抗讓兩岸可以健康有序展開交流為兩岸的良性互動墊下基礎我想這是緩解兩岸關係最重要的公開的某一些層面是喊話我今天要問的問題就是這樣"},{"start":248.761,"end":267.556,"text":"就是說你在LINE17條的時候把它講的境外敵對勢力然後現在又講說應該要用對話取代對抗這就叫做不一致嘛中委員沒有不一致沒有不一致沒有不一致為什麼會這樣因為我們面對的中國大陸非常嚴重的威脅統戰滲透"},{"start":270.298,"end":298.906,"text":"這我有講的這是一種複合性的施壓包括軍機艦擾台越來越嚴重這你剛剛講的不管是灰色地帶作戰或是說複合式施壓這些本質都非常理解但問題就是對岸顯然是沒有變的嘛它就是一直逼你一直壓迫你對不對對 不斷逼極限施壓我擔心的是我們自己沒有很清楚的一致性嘛如果你講民進黨執政當然要打對抗路線那你就明確而且清楚而且一致性那至少"},{"start":299.346,"end":322.37,"text":"在全世界各地在觀看在推兩岸的戰略等等的時候他有跡可循但是問題就是從去年的5月20號到現在你一下說兩國互不隸屬一下說要對話一下又講說境外敵對勢力一下又講說併購要提條件到了520滿一年之後對兩岸置之未提這件事情叫做不完整"},{"start":322.91,"end":352.49,"text":"不一致某一些層面從全世界看待兩岸關係推演的角度來講這叫不確定性我提醒一下邱主委最近Foreign Affairs出了兩篇文章一篇是15號他寫The risk of war in the Taiwan Strait is highand getting higher另外一篇是5月20號The Taiwan Tightrope這兩篇文章我希望陸委會也許海基會可以去拜讀一下這當然來自於美國的智庫學者啊這個對於最近兩岸局勢跟"},{"start":353.07,"end":378.878,"text":"整體亞太和平安全架構下面的一些分析裡面有提到共同的兩個重點第一個要避免大家誤判情勢啊也就是說很有可能那個衝突是會爆發的如果美方沒有抓好情勢的話可能會出現擦槍走火的一個狀況另外這兩篇文章都明示暗示啊就美方應該要稍微遏制一下所謂的挑釁行為"},{"start":380.318,"end":391.589,"text":"這話講得很清楚搭配前一陣子川普講的Unification and Peace我們有沒有受到美方的壓力或者指示就我的業務範圍我沒有就你的業務範圍你沒有"},{"start":392.998,"end":414.448,"text":"那我跟委員報告中國大陸對台灣的對台政策還是軟硬兩手硬的那一手就越硬所以我們剛剛說的複合性的施壓這就是我們為了維持現狀積極的維持現在讓台海現狀不被改變所以我們要有17項的因應策略"},{"start":415.864,"end":443.948,"text":"那當然我們也是希望兩岸應該要正常健康有序的交流我現在真的很擔心啦就是你對外釋出的訊號一下是17項的強硬策略一下又釋出善意這不一致所謂強硬策略委員我們稍微跟您報告一下那個都是我們的正常防衛那個都是我們內部的這個強化機制並沒有對中國大陸有什麼挑釁那他"},{"start":444.548,"end":460.22,"text":"成為我們的說我們是境外敵對勢力那個也是國際公約的事實借用一點時間只是要提醒這個大選的時候我們賴總統曾經講這個他當總統的時候兩岸發生戰爭的機率一定最低但只是今日目前"},{"start":460.88,"end":484.652,"text":"中共舉行四次環台軍演其實我們政府的一言一行都牽動兩岸的敏感神經立場的論述要有一致性我今天不在這邊定義你應該要和緩或者是強硬因為這有時局的變化可是你要有一致性跟邏輯性要不然你會被全世界認定成為不確定因子跟不穩定因素這一段時間"},{"start":486.727,"end":509.629,"text":"賴總統滿意度下滑很多人對兩岸是心中有質疑的是不安定的我希望尤其在520這一周年又沒有聽到有具體的方向這是我認為這是跟國家安全是有關的事情因為不管是你的盟友在看待這件事或者是國內關心兩岸大事的人民在關心這件事情他都需要看到完整而且一致性而且清晰的論述這件事情"},{"start":510.189,"end":530.41,"text":"大概不會是你單獨入委會的事也不會只是海基會的事情但是整個政府團隊你的步調要一致你的態度要清楚國人才會安定這是本席今天要花一點時間來做政策提醒的部分另外因為時間超過我今天不多講經濟的部分一樣很重要現在我們面對全世界這個關稅衝擊美國跟你關稅等等要重新去談判"},{"start":531.511,"end":559.19,"text":"中國大陸的ECFA找收清單會不會因為兩岸關係的惡化或者是停滯不前有改變的可能性你作為兩岸關係的主要組織的單位有沒有做相關的一些兵棋推演這些內容我用書面的方式會後給你請你做詳細的答覆可以嗎可以 謝謝委員我們的政策主軸一貫而堅定就是堅定維護兩岸關係和平穩定的現狀變成和平穩定了好 OK 謝謝主委辛苦了好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":576,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時11分）謝謝主席，邱主委有請。"],["主席：有請主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。雖然是請你備詢，但是我要在這邊讚美一下吳董事長，理論上來講，吳董事長是不用備詢的，但他剛剛用了一些時間清楚地對海基會的立場做了充分的表達，包含他提到和平應該是兩岸的共同利益，但是和平難行卻成為了世界共同的問題，這句話在某一些層面來講是深得我心。我之所以要讚美他的原因是因為，其實我們今天去談兩岸關係的一些變化，非常關鍵的是應該需要看到所謂的完整性跟一致性，昨天是賴清德總統就職一週年，他很罕見的或者是很出乎意料的並沒有在就職演說中提及兩岸關係，這當然在某一種層面來講是一種信號，但是我們要把時間往回拉，一路拉回他就職開始，一路以來他對於兩岸立場的一些調整跟改變，希望藉著這樣一點點的業務報告時間，我想聽一聽邱主委的看法跟評論。113年5月20號他就職上任的當天，他馬上將兩岸定位成兩國互不隸屬，主委，你自己在業務報告的時候是講兩岸互不隸屬，到底是「兩國」還是「兩岸」？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，不管是中華民國與中華人民共和國互不隸屬，或是兩岸互不隸屬，這個都是客觀的事實以及臺海的現狀。中國大陸就是一個重點，要正視中華民國存在的客觀事實，你如果不正視他，你的對臺政策都是要消滅中華民國、併吞臺灣，兩岸就很辛苦。"],["牛委員煦庭：依主委剛剛的回答，表示這兩件事情其實是一樣的，真的是一樣的嗎？如果是一樣的話，為什麼你今天的業務報告是講「兩岸」而不是講「兩國」？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，我們經常因為有很多句子要鋪陳，基本上我們既然講兩岸互不隸屬，這就是客觀事實跟臺海的現狀，不管怎麼樣，就是要正視中華民國客觀事實存在，要正視臺灣人民對於民主自由生活方式的堅持。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，這些形容詞大家都聽很多，我們都……"],["邱主任委員垂正：這不是形容詞，是我們的政策。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，政策，我們都願意尊重也願意了解，但是你看，其實在剛剛就出現所謂的不一致性，這只是我的開頭而已。今年的3月13號，我們賴總統「賴17條」強硬的表態，把對岸定義成所謂的境外敵對勢力，並且提出5項統戰威脅跟17項的因應策略，這是俗稱的「賴17條」，對不對？照理是順著來講。但是到了5月17號他接受網紅敏迪專訪時，卻突然變成大公司併小公司的時候應該要開好條件，這就開始出現所謂的不一致性，如果中國大陸在賴清德總統的定調是兩國互不隸屬，又是境外敵對勢力，那怎麼可以允許併購行為呢？主委，這樣子的一個說法是你的建議嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，我想兩岸互動的重點就是在對等尊嚴，賴總統昨天也在強調，只要對等尊嚴，歡迎中國大陸來臺進行各種的合作交流，我們也期許在對等尊嚴的情況下，兩岸可以透過交流取代圍堵、透過對話取代對抗，讓兩岸可以健康有序、展開交流，為兩岸的良性互動奠下基礎，我想這個是緩解兩岸關係最重要的。"],["牛委員煦庭：公開部分在某些層面是喊話，我今天要問的問題就是這樣，你在賴17條的時候把它講為境外敵對勢力，但現在又講應該要用對話取代對抗，這就叫做不一致嘛！"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，沒有不一致。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有不一致？"],["邱主任委員垂正：沒有不一致，我為什麼會這樣？因為我們面對中國大陸非常嚴重的威脅、統戰滲透，這個我有講，這是一種複合性的施壓，包括軍機艦擾臺越來越嚴重。"],["牛委員煦庭：就你剛剛講的，不管是灰色地帶作戰或是複合式施壓，這些本席都非常理解，但問題是對岸顯然是沒有變的，他就是一直逼你、一直壓迫你，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，步步進逼、極限施壓。"],["牛委員煦庭：我擔心的是，我們自己沒有很清楚的一致性，如果你講民進黨執政大家打對抗路線，那就明確清楚而且有一致性，至少全世界各地在觀看、在推兩岸戰略等等的時候是有跡可循。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，跟委員報告……"],["牛委員煦庭：但問題就是，從去年5月20號到現在，一下說兩國互不隸屬；一下說要對話；一下又講境外敵對勢力；一下又講併購要提條件；到520滿一年之後，對兩岸隻字未提。這件事情叫做不完整、不一致，在某一些層面，從全世界看待兩岸關係推演的角度來講，這叫不確定性。我提醒一下邱主委，最近Foreign Affairs出了兩篇文章，一篇是在15號寫到「The Risk of War in the Taiwan Strait Is High─and Getting Higher」；另外一篇是5月20號寫到「The Taiwan Tightrope」，這兩篇文章我希望陸委會也許海基會也可以去拜讀一下，這都來自於美國的智庫學者對於最近兩岸局勢跟整體亞太和平安全架構下面的一些分析，裡面有提到共同的兩個重點，第一個，要避免大家誤判情勢，也就是說，很有可能那個衝突是會爆發的，如果美方沒有抓好情勢的話，可能會出現擦槍走火的狀況。另外，這兩篇文章都明示、暗示美方應該要稍微遏制一下所謂的挑釁行為，這話講得很清楚，搭配前一陣子川普講的unification and peace，所以我們有沒有受到美方的壓力或者是指示，主委？"],["邱主任委員垂正：就我們的業務範圍，我們沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：就你們的業務範圍，你們沒有？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，我跟委員報告，中國大陸的對臺政策還是軟硬兩手，硬的那一手是越硬。"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們剛剛說的複合性施壓，就是我們為了積極地維持現狀，讓臺海的現狀不被改變，所以我們要有17項的因應策略。當然，我們也是希望兩岸應該要正常、健康有序的交流。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在很擔心，你對外釋出的訊號，一下是17項的強硬策略，一下又釋出善意，這不一致，所以沒有辦法判斷，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員，所謂的強硬策略，我稍微跟您報告一下。"],["牛委員煦庭：可以。"],["邱主任委員垂正：那個都是我們的正當防衛，都是我們內部的強化機制，並沒有對中國大陸有什麼挑釁，它成為我們的境外敵對勢力，那個也是國際公認的事實。"],["牛委員煦庭：我今天借用一點時間只是要提醒，大選的時候賴總統曾經講，他當總統的時候兩岸發生戰爭的機率一定是最低的，但時至今日，目前中共舉行了4次環臺軍演，其實我們政府的一言一行都牽動兩岸的敏感神經。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：立場的論述要有一致性，我今天不在這邊定義你應該要和緩或者是強硬，因為這有時局的變化，可是你要有一致性跟邏輯性，要不然你會被全世界認定為不確定因子跟不穩定因素。這一段時間賴總統滿意度下滑，很多人對兩岸心中是有質疑的，是不安定的，尤其在520，一週年時，又沒有聽到具體的方向，我認為這是跟國家安全有關的事情，因為不管是你的盟友在看這件事，或者是國內關心兩岸大事的人民在關心這件事情，他都需要看到完整、一致，而且清晰的論述，這件事情大概不會單獨是你陸委會的事，也不會只是海基會的事情，但是整個政府團隊的步調要一致，你的態度要清楚，國人才會安定，這是本席今天要花一點時間來做政策提醒的部分。","另外，因為時間超過，我今天就不多講，經濟的部分一樣很重要，現在我們面對全世界的關稅衝擊、美國課我們關稅等等，要重新去談判，中國大陸的ECFA早收清單，會不會因為兩岸關係惡化或者停滯不前，有改變的可能性？你作為兩岸關係的主責單位，有沒有做相關的兵棋推演？這些內容我會後用書面的方式提供給你，請你做詳細的答復，可以嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：可以，謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們的政策主軸一貫而堅定，就是堅定維護兩岸關係和平穩定的現狀。"],["牛委員煦庭：又變成和平穩定了，好，謝謝主委，辛苦了！"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭召委，謝謝主委。","有請許宇甄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-20","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","李坤城","邱志偉","陳雪生","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145101_00006"}}},{"id":"161732","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161732","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db7088a2ac90ed3976cdb65d50a7385bb625d7a793ed122532f0a2f51fd5bd8c715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:18:21 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員這邊當然我們第一個部分是希望繼續督導地方政府來持續精進而少安置單位的專業人員培訓那而且第二部分希望這些機構第一個事情是來跟我們的醫療機構能夠有醫療系統能夠有個連結也就是說基本上是建立他們的需求假設有綠色通道這個是所謂綠色通道的部分"},{"start":139.127,"end":166.635,"text":"我剛剛講的這些我大概知道次長的意思那先回答我一個問題好不好機構內部的這個心理健康的機制因為當時我們是希望說透過心理師法如果不要修法來不及修法在短時間內可以協助這些孩子在機構內就可以得到身心健康的支持方案的話有一個機會是透過衛福部的函式當時我們聽到在相關專家學者會議上他們有提出這個建議有沒有機會往這裡發展"},{"start":167.415,"end":194.033,"text":"我跟委員先報告第一個部分就是說現在在機構內能夠讓我們專業的心理師或諮詢心理師他能夠來做這個業務做職業登記的部分的話他做外展做職登是可以對我知道但是如果是要他專責在內部就是說在機構內部專責來進行服務的話現實上面來講當然如果他要機構內他要變成是符合我們的這個心理師職業"},{"start":194.974,"end":213.719,"text":"没错没错职业登记他如果符合职业登记我们当然可以允许但是成本上面来讲可能对机构来说会有点大因为他做了一个机构那他可能内部服务他应该是做内部服务的那服务量可能不足以让这个机构而让他在内部的这个心理师他的足够量能那这个部分可能机构会比较有这个考量"},{"start":214.339,"end":229.657,"text":"這個是一個部分但是我的意思是說如果衛福部可以掀開這個可能性讓機構內不管是公立的機構或是私立的機構因為目前確實越來越多的孩子因為原生家庭出了狀況他不得不被送到機構去如果機構他們有辦法自籌裁員"},{"start":230.618,"end":248.203,"text":"但是需要你們的法規範開了這個門讓他們在機構裡面除了透過所謂的外展方案之外還可以在機構內內聘專業的心理師讓他可以長期的對於這一群孩子提供服務但需要你們衛福部開這個可能性自己機構內部要聘心理師是可以的"},{"start":248.843,"end":268.637,"text":"只是他心理他聘了心理師如果心理師這個心理師他要以職業登記為心理師的服務的話那這個機構要去申請職業登記對但是因為現在的心理書法是不行的對那這個設置標準在他內部的設置標準怎麼樣可以去調整是不是可以符合哪些細節可以處理我們再來後續跟委員這邊去對還有還有需求的團隊是不是來跟我們討論一下我們把他的設置標準看他能不能符合設置標準好不好"},{"start":273.561,"end":293.468,"text":"所以次長你的建議是一個是我們先跟這些機構對話聽聽看他們目前的需求是不是如同我們辦公室所收集到資訊是這樣那再來透過跟心理師學工會的討論跟這些案子機構討論不管是你認為需要透過個案申請還是衛福部給一個公開的函說明符合心理師法情況下這些機構可以成為心理師職業機構對不對"},{"start":295.049,"end":315.671,"text":"因為現在如果他是外展或報備資源他現在是已經可以運行我們也盡量讓這個部分可以運作但是如果他這個安置機構內部自己就要去設置心理師的這個服務的機構的話那他自己內部要這個機構的設置要符合我們的設置標準因為在機構內他設置標準他才提供的就是我們心理師法所規範的心理師的服務"},{"start":316.171,"end":333.504,"text":"這個我沒有疑問我沒有要你們放寬這個標準我認為是跟更多的討論跟溝通因為目前他們所能夠職業機構是醫療機構心理治療所心理諮商所其他經主管機關認可之機構所以我們希望主管機關也就是衛福部在這個議題上可以開始考慮跟這些安置機構對話"},{"start":335.125,"end":359.34,"text":"那這機構內他如果要設心理諮詢我們來協助他配合符合我們的設計標準這個議題我們辦公室會再持續追蹤那看起來確實還需要一些討論不過很感謝你們已經召開相關會議從我們3月13日質詢到現在第二個是關於這些機構裡面還有非常多特殊需求而造的困境一個是剛剛次長你有快速提到所謂他們要去就診的時候可能一次需要兩三位機構的人力共同"},{"start":360.28,"end":388.651,"text":"去看診而且看診的科目可能很多時間很長需要一整天的時間那目前安置機構希望衛福部可以協助醫院設立所謂綠色通道減少就醫的等待時間我知道目前有一些縣市的早療評估我們用早療這個概念來看已經有綠色通道像新北那衛福部有沒有機會跟地方社政單位討論針對這些安置機構的孩子外出就醫也可以設置綠色通道當然還需要時間"},{"start":389.431,"end":393.776,"text":"我們一直都有在補助醫療機構去辦理嚴重情緒行為障礙者精神醫療就醫障礙改善方案我們把這個114年到現在我們總共有15家醫院在辦理尤其是針對嚴重情緒這時候經障者的特別門診"},{"start":408.152,"end":436.851,"text":"那還他這裡面我們當然就是跟他結合機構然後身心障礙福利機構兒少安置機構矯正學校等好我們來提供外展服務不過我想委員也知道我們在做尤其是這一塊兒少的醫療資源他他真的是我們也專業人員的部分是明顯的比較比較吃緊一點的那所以我們不論現在在新電視這邊我們是持續來會支持學校支持醫療機構來做這樣子的服務那我想很多的機構他們也都如果說他跟安置機構有"},{"start":438.332,"end":454.843,"text":"配合的這個機制的話那在內部它可以產生出這樣子的一個協助剛剛次長你說的都對但是我要跟次長報告現場第一線的實務是大部分現在有提供你剛剛說不管是綠色通道或是嚴重情緒行為精神醫療就醫障礙改善計畫這些都是在公立的機構"},{"start":455.663,"end":476.941,"text":"目前有非常多私立的機構其實承擔了照顧很多孩子的責任我不確定我這邊的資訊跟你們那邊對不對起來不過因為我時間有限我想我還是把這個問題先丟出來後續我們辦公室希望可以找新建司積極討論如何協助這些安置機構的孩子在外出就醫的時候可以有更多積極的協助就是所謂綠色通道或是早期介入計畫好最後一個"},{"start":478.982,"end":503.814,"text":"機構裡面現在照顧量能不足的問題我們希望可以協助機構發展所謂的分級分類讓更多在照顧這些兒童的機構在你們的支持底下可以把孩子照顧得更好因為我認為凱凱案可能看見的是0到2歲的困境但事實上遠離這個年紀之後很多孩子從原生家庭被接出來我們希望在第一時間提供他們更好的照顧不管是身心健康或是生理的議題上"},{"start":504.614,"end":532.31,"text":"所以我也這邊要拜託衛福部我們先把問題拋出來這是第一個再來很多這些機構的工作人員他們其實長期的壓力非常非常大我們有沒有機會提供更積極的心理健康支持方案給這些在照顧孩子們的社工也好機構工作人員也督導更多的喘息服務當然我知道需要討論需要時間我先把問題拋出來謝謝委員注意到我想助人者的支持跟助人者後續的協助也是一個非常重要的方案對"},{"start":532.85,"end":546.315,"text":"好那最後今天其實很多委員提到外聘獨老的事情我就簡單的說而且我今天早上聽了很多委員的質詢確實在相關制度上我們需要更多的精進跟討論因為目前看起來行之多年的方法大家認為有檢討的必要那我認為我想後續為輔部你們會在這個部分精進對嗎是好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝次長謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":990,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時18分）謝謝蘇委員。對，我叫陳培瑜，只是都二聲，大家不是那麼確定怎麼唸。有請次長，謝謝。"],["主席：請次長。我們中午不休息，肚子餓了自己吃便當。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，辛苦了，謝謝大家。"],["林次長靜儀：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長，我快速跟您討論我們之前追蹤衛福部的一些議題，如果您沒有接觸到相關業務也沒關係，再拜託您帶回去研議好嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：第一個是關於安置機構裡面的兒少身心狀況，其實需要更多的協助。之前在3月13號的時候，我們曾經拜託邱部長，針對原生家庭出了狀況的孩子，必須送到安置機構去的這些所謂家外安置的兒少，因為原生家庭出了狀況進到安置機構裡面，他們除了第一時間受到照顧之外，更多心理健康的支持。當時3月13號質詢之後，我們知道衛福部好像在5月初有召開相關會議，但是我們沒有收到相關的進度跟結論，我不知道當次討論的結論是什麼？不過我相信既然已經有相關專家學者在研商會議給予結論，我想要知道在我們之前所要求的，如何增加安置機構對於這些原生家庭脆弱的孩子給予更多心理健康的支持，當天的會議結論現在有機會跟我們說嗎？還是還在研議中？"],["林次長靜儀：有，手上有相關的會議結論。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，太好了。"],["林次長靜儀：先跟委員做個報告，也非常謝謝委員關心，因為這是非常脆弱而且是很少數的孩子，但是我們一定要顧慮到這些孩子的需求。我們在上次這個會議上談到，大概有幾個比較簡單的部分先跟委員報告：第一，針對特殊需求的兒少，我們要發展分級、分類的照顧模式，希望在機構裡面能夠去調整照顧人力跟資源的配比。第二個部分，就是這中間可能我們還是希望能夠發展一些比較簡易的評估工具，讓他在安置初期就能夠先知道，哪幾個孩子可能我們要先給予特殊照顧。第三個部分，在專業人員這邊當然我們第一是希望繼續督導地方政府持續精進兒少安置單位的專業人員培訓；第二是希望這些機構第一個事情是來跟我們的醫療系統能夠有一個連結，也就是說基本上是建立他們的需求，假設有綠色通道的話……"],["陳委員培瑜：這個是所謂綠色通道的部分。"],["林次長靜儀：對，這是綠色通道。"],["陳委員培瑜：剛剛講的這些，我大概知道次長的意思，那先回答我一個問題好不好？"],["林次長靜儀：機構內部的設置對不對？"],["陳委員培瑜：對，機構內部的心理健康的機制，因為當時我們是希望透過心理師法，如果不要修法，來不及修法，在短時間內可以協助這些孩子在機構內就可以得到身心健康的支持方案的話，有一個機會是透過衛福部的函示。當時我們聽到在相關的專家學者會議上，他們有提出這個建議，有沒有機會往這裡發展？"],["林次長靜儀：我跟委員先報告第一個部分，就是說現在在機構內能夠讓我們專業的心理師來做這個業務、做執業登記部分的話，他做外展、做執登是可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，我知道，我知道外展可以。"],["林次長靜儀：如果是要他在機構內部專責來進行服務的話，現實上面來講，當然如果他要在機構內變成符合我們的心理師執業登記，他如果符合執業登記，我們當然可以允許。但是成本上面來講，可能對機構來說會有點大，因為做為一個機構，他應該是做內部服務的，在服務量能部分，可能不足以讓這個機構內部的心理師有足夠的量能，這個部分可能機構會比較有這個考量。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個是一個部分，但是我的意思是說，如果衛福部可以先開這個可能性，讓機構內……不管是公立的機構或是私立的機構，因為目前確實越來越多的孩子因為原生家庭出了狀況，他不得不被送到機構去，如果機構他們有辦法自籌財源，但是需要你們的法規範開這個門，讓他們在機構裡面除了透過所謂的外展方案之外，還可以在機構內內聘專業的心理師，讓他可以長期的對這一群孩子提供服務，但需要你們衛福部開這個可能性。"],["林次長靜儀：自己機構內部要聘心理師是可以的，只是他聘了心理師，如果這個心理師要以執業登記為心理師服務的話，那這個機構要去申請執業登記，這個指的是設置標準。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，但是因為現在的心理師法是不行的。"],["林次長靜儀：對，那這個設置標準，在他內部的設置標準怎麼樣可以去調整，是不是可以符合哪些細節，可以處理我們後續再來跟委員這邊去對。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒錯，我就是要這個。"],["林次長靜儀：還有需求的團隊是不是來跟我們討論一下，我們看他能不能符合設置標準好不好？"],["陳委員培瑜：所以次長的建議是，我們先跟這些機構對話，聽聽看他們目前的需求，是不是如同我們辦公室所蒐集到的資訊，再來透過跟心理師學公會跟這些安置機構的討論，不管是你認為需要透過個案申請，還是衛福部給一個公開的函，說明符合心理師法的情況下，這些機構可以成為心理師執業機構，對不對？"],["林次長靜儀：對，因為現在如果他是外展或報備資源，現在是已經可以運行了。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯。"],["林次長靜儀：我們盡量讓這個部分可以運作，但如果這個安置機構內部自己要去設置心理師的這個服務機構的話，那這個機構的設置要符合我們的設置標準，因為在機構內，他要符合設置標準，提供的就是我們心理師法所規範的心理師的服務。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個我沒有疑問，我沒有要你們放寬這個標準，我認為是更多的討論跟溝通，因為目前他們能夠執業的機構是醫療機構、心理治療所、心理諮商所、其他經主管機關認可之機構。所以我們希望主管機關，也就是衛福部在這個議題上，可以開始考慮跟這些安置機構對話。"],["林次長靜儀：就是安置機構內他如果要設心理諮商所，我們來協助他符合我們的設置標準。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個議題我們辦公室會再持續追蹤，看起來確實還需要一些討論，不過從我們3月13日質詢到現在，很感謝你們已經召開相關會議。","第二個是關於這些機構裡面，還有非常多特殊需求兒少的困境，一個是剛剛次長有快速提到，他們要去就診的時候可能一次需要兩三位機構的人力共同去看診，而且看診的科目可能很多，時間很長，需要一整天的時間。目前安置機構希望衛福部可以協助醫院設立所謂綠色通道，減少就醫的等待時間。我知道目前有一些縣市的早療評估，我們用早療這個概念來看，已經有綠色通道，像新北，那衛福部有沒有機會跟地方社政單位討論，針對這些安置機構的孩子外出就醫，也可以設置綠色通道？當然我知道還需要時間研議，有沒有機會往這裡去討論？"],["林次長靜儀：跟委員報告，我們其實一直都有在補助醫療機構去辦理嚴重情緒行為障礙者精神醫療就醫障礙改善方案，從114年到現在總共有15家醫院在辦理，尤其是針對精障者的特別門診，這裡面我們當然就是結合機構，包含身心障礙福利機構、兒少安置機構、矯正學校等，我們來提供外展服務。不過我想委員也知道，我們在兒少的醫療資源這一塊，我們在專業人員的部分真的是……"],["陳委員培瑜：不足的。"],["林次長靜儀：明顯的比較吃緊一點，所以現在我們不論在心健司這邊，都會持續來支持醫療機構做這樣子的服務。我想很多的機構，他們如果跟安置機構有配合機制的話，那在內部他可以產生出這樣子的一個協助。"],["陳委員培瑜：剛剛次長說的都對，但是我要跟次長報告，現場第一線的實務是，大部分現在有提供你剛剛說不管是綠色通道，或是嚴重情緒行為精神醫療就醫障礙改善計畫，這些都是在公立的機構，但目前有非常多私立的機構其實承擔了很多照顧孩子的責任。我不確定我這邊的資訊跟你們那邊對不對得起來，不過因為我的時間有限，我想我還是把這個問題先丟出來，後續我們辦公室希望可以找心健司積極討論，如何協助這些安置機構的孩子在外出就醫的時候可以有更多積極的協助，就是所謂綠色通道或是早期介入計畫。","最後一個是機構裡面現在照顧量能不足的問題，我們希望可以協助機構發展所謂的分級、分類，讓更多這些照顧兒少的機構在你們的支持下可以把孩子照顧得更好。因為我認為剴剴案可能看見的是0到2歲的困境，但事實上遠離這個年紀之後，很多孩子從原生家庭被接出來，我們希望在第一時間提供他們更好的照顧，不管是身心健康或是生理的議題上，所以我也要拜託衛福部，我們先把問題拋出來，這是第一個。再來很多這些機構的工作人員，他們其實長期的壓力非常非常大，我們有沒有機會提供更積極的心理健康支持方案，給這些照顧孩子們的社工、機構工作人員、督導更多的喘息服務？當然我知道需要討論、需要時間，我先把問題拋出來。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員注意到，我想助人者的支持跟助人者後續的協助，也是一個非常重要的方案。"],["陳委員培瑜：對。今天其實很多委員提到外聘督導的事情，我就簡單的說，而且我今天早上聽了很多委員的質詢，確實在相關制度上我們需要更多的精進跟討論，因為目前看起來行之多年的方法，大家認為有檢討的必要。我想後續衛福部會在這個部分精進對嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。謝謝主席、謝謝次長，謝謝。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員、謝謝次長。","接續我們請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":138,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-12","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","徐巧芯","盧縣一","黃國昌","劉建國","涂權吉","林淑芬","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","黃秀芳","洪孟楷","張啓楷","范雲","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","楊曜","賴惠員","葉元之","王育敏","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃捷"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145201_00002"}}},{"id":"161731","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161731","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db6e34cd5677a1af0e020ad028569f7f2f25d7a793ed122532ec1a1595b71728d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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各位委員 還有請部長哪個部長 陳部長交通部 陳部長委員好 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一樣啊 這都是一樣蘇花安4月9號也質詢部長啊是是齁 你說我那時候請你趕快跟行政院院長協調是拜託行政院院長是現在還在行政院嗎"},{"start":302.425,"end":319.512,"text":"還在行政院 對這個事太久了 上次你的答選說我說請部長跟行政院長報告 趕快核定你的答覆說 好 我會跟院長報告再記得 要請秘書記得提醒"},{"start":322.713,"end":337.686,"text":"部長每次行政宴會要去之前要跟他提醒一下這我以前當副主委就是這樣就要提醒這個主任委員我以前當副主委的時候是這樣你看這個看這個時間你看這麼多次了這麼多次了"},{"start":347.682,"end":374.183,"text":"所以這個部分要把它當成一個非常非常重要關核定之後還要執行都要很多年所以這個部分務必務必要記得要請副主委今天次長沒有來了要記得提醒跟我以前常務副主委的時候要提醒好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1762,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時16分）主席、各位委員，請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好，大家辛苦了。5月18日花蓮強降雨，造成北迴線和仁至崇德路段嚴重受損，還好沒有造成人員傷亡，也沒有造成火車的損害，這是慶幸的地方。但是這樣的強降雨，也不是豪雨，就是強降雨而已，就造成……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，那個強降雨比豪雨還大，3個小時裡面降了107毫米，3個小時以內。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：要說主要的因素，其實過去北迴鐵路都沒有事了，就是因為0403地震之後，地震當下也都沒有事，是後來的餘震非常非常的多，讓整個山鬆動，所以一下雨就造成這樣的情形，連蘇花公路也是一樣，都受到癱瘓。對於這樣的情形，本席還有花蓮、臺東的立委一再的希望趕快解決這個問題，真的是很嚴重。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：要繞臺灣一周，我是常常繞臺灣一周，交通很安全的作為，我會繞臺灣的，因為我的選區臺澎金馬，常常要坐火車、坐高鐵，甚至常常坐區間車，都是有它的需要性，但是安全最重要。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席蔡總委員先進列席總統官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者林志先生有請我們陳部長跟預言所的林所長請陳部長公務局局長剛陳所長也請準備好"},{"start":23.811,"end":41.966,"text":"部長好還有所長好來今天的問題大家都問過很多了我就很快的迅速的來進行一下來下一張這是昨天事故的現場那我們把它回顧到原來淨空的畫面這就是事故現場的道路部長看起來有沒有任何的道路安全的防護措施您覺得有嗎"},{"start":43.039,"end":71.087,"text":"報告委員他這個看起來是會有行人專用實相的措施然後返馬線上面也有特殊的這個顏色特別的顏色但是對不起應對昨天的那種事故狀況這樣的一些措施只是行人被注意到但是對於車輛的速度或者暴衝的情況他有沒有防護的效果包括看到這些都是顯示的嘛這些緩衝感也是顯示的嘛好我們來看一下這是日本學校周邊的道路規劃"},{"start":72.347,"end":96.436,"text":"部長或者是你們的局長有看過這樣的規劃嗎譬如說他們除了路面的塗裝之外他們除了一個進來的停車彎之外他們事實上在十字路口做了一些減速的設施然後他也把道路刻意的窄化讓車流速度降緩請問部長或者局長您認為這樣有幫助於道路學校周邊道路的安全防護嗎"},{"start":97.316,"end":119.789,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們確實在運營所所這一個訂定的這一個校園桌邊行人安全感染指引我們是有參考日本韓國就包括委員剛才這邊所秀出來的這些優良的一些值得借鏡的作法我們都有放在這個參考指引裡面參考指引部長也就是說這個需要我們儘速加快去推動可以嗎"},{"start":121.009,"end":143.046,"text":"好的做我們趕快去做這個部分我們其實都有指引出來那國土署內政部國土署其實他們主要有負責這個業務啦所以我也會去要求內政部國土署我們兩個部會配合好不好好我們努力的把它改善來下一頁好剛剛也很多委員問到了高齡換照不考駕駛能力我們換照不管什麼原因換照是不是考這三個認知能力"},{"start":145.004,"end":173.131,"text":"認知能力是用這三個題目好那只有這三個嗎局長您目前的換照的措施有包含哪些目前就是說高齡換照包括體檢還有認知功能測驗那認知功能測驗裡面有三個程序對那就是第一個就是時間空間第二個就是記憶力第三個就是這個協調好很好來部長其實我們看日本怎麼做其實剛剛聽起來的不免家裡有長輩的可能會覺得好像"},{"start":174.387,"end":199.038,"text":"這個也是巴士量表其中的類似的做法但是我們看一下在日本他有分成兩個年齡層那如果你是叫年輕的你會有一個培訓課程然後就直接換發駕照通過後就換發駕照但是如果較高的年齡的他會有個認知測試這個認知測試就跟剛剛講的一樣但是重點是什麼不是測試完了就沒有了他有什麼培訓課程包括"},{"start":200.059,"end":203.789,"text":"說明駕駛的實際能力的車輛測試目前我們有做到這個嗎"},{"start":205.885,"end":233.136,"text":"局長有沒有跟我們講培訓大概就是跟我們現在的這個一般的授訓講習會比較那是指考照前那換照的過程會換照目前還沒有對部長這就是原因所在我當然知道交通部很極致的回應社會的一些感覺但是呢好像你們只是把它停留在原來較高齡的認知測試的年齡往下調我們新的方案裡面其實都有加入講習"},{"start":233.976,"end":251.156,"text":"有加入了 新的方案有加入了那趕快跟社會宣布有宣布了 至少半天的講習那有包括實際的車輛測試這個如果是肇事的紀錄 有肇事紀錄的年長者他們就會加入實地的訓練很好 所以這個要宣布 讓大家知道再往下看"},{"start":251.653,"end":269.08,"text":"那其實剛剛也有委員問到的用藥的問題啦我們知道喝酒 酒後不能開車有沒有聽過吃藥後不能開車的我不是講毒藥喔這個當然有影響我們也知道隨著年齡的增加我們可能長者會有經常要用藥的需求"},{"start":269.68,"end":296.38,"text":"那不同的藥物會產生不同的影響力所以呢有人都說包括降血壓啦止痛啦都有可能會妨礙你本來是可以正常駕駛的可能會造成你的能力的下降有沒有這個可能性有可能好那所以說呢我們未來希望你們的精進的換照的制度除了包括認知除了包括實際操控能力是不是也要增加一個包括可能的一些建議用藥指引的建議剛剛有委員問到可以嗎"},{"start":297.247,"end":301.036,"text":"我們跨部會的溝通我們會來啟動那就請衛務部進來協助我們最後的結論很簡單的說另外一個就是強車險"},{"start":306.855,"end":331.317,"text":"強車險目前是監管會那邊配合在推動那麼交通部過去對一些有造成風險可能的強車險的目的不是是幫助受害者去填補風險但是以昨天的例子萬一啦萬一我是開車的家長我的車有保強車險 一定有嘛我的在者小孩在車內 我被撞了我受傷 有賠"},{"start":332.695,"end":358.644,"text":"我的強車險有包含我 但是不包含乘客險這個部長知道嗎 是這是我的小孩受傷了 我車的強車險因為我沒有肇事責任所以在無肇事責任的情況之下我的強車險只保障駕駛本人 不保障乘客您覺得這樣的保障夠不夠萬一類似的情況有造成肇事的車輛衝擊其他無肇事責任的車輛造成裡面的駕駛跟乘客受傷卻沒有得到強車險的保障 您覺得這個需不需要補強"},{"start":359.448,"end":384.21,"text":"包委員我們針對大車的部分有啦小客車運輸業有運輸那是因為他職業運輸嘛那如果是自小客的部分自小客的部分他應該可以自己加保好您說的這是一個部分最後的結論所以說其實目前上一頁上一頁我們說其實大部分的被保險人大部分的車主他買他說有強車險的時候他以為我只要有受傷我就可以賠我的乘客也可以賠錯"},{"start":385.191,"end":402.959,"text":"如果你是被撞你沒有造成責任車上的乘客是不賠的這個部分呢委員會要求金管會趕快的去補強那也希望未來交通部在相關的對駕駛人的指引上告知他這一點他在投保的時候他如果覺得保障不足要自己額外加保或者請保險局去研發讓保險公司有新的保單來保障你同意嗎"},{"start":403.799,"end":429.865,"text":"你也支持嘛好那最後的結論都很快的講希望在校園周邊及人口稠密地區有些減速緩衝或一些行人防護的措施這個部分呢你們有在做了請你們把它提出來那另外換照的測試項目你們也說了其實有說那就是要加強宣導最後呢用藥指引請融入以及最後呢汽車強制責任第三人責任險的部分未來怎麼強化駕駛人的認知這個部分也請交通部加強宣導可以嗎可以沒有問題好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1707,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時9分）謝謝主席。在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生，有請陳部長跟運研所林所長，公路總局局長也請準備。"],["主席：請陳部長、林所長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長、所長好。今天的問題大家都問過很多了，我就迅速的進行。這是昨天事故的現場，我們把它回復到原來淨空的畫面，這就是事故現場的道路，部長看這有沒有任何道路安全的防護措施，您覺得有嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這個看起來會有行人專用時相的措施，斑馬線上面也有特殊的顏色、特別的顏色，旁邊也有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是應對昨天的那種事故狀況，這樣的一些措施只是行人被注意到，對於車輛的速度或者暴衝的情況，它有沒有防護的效果？包括我看到這些緩衝板也是顯示的。好，我們來看日本學校周邊的道路規劃，部長或者局長有看過這樣的規劃嗎？他們除了路面的塗裝之外，除了一個進來的停車彎之外，事實上他們在十字路口做了一些減速的設施，然後也把道路刻意的窄化，讓車流速度降緩。請問部長或者局長，您認為這樣有助於學校周邊道路的安全防護嗎？"],["林所長繼國：跟委員報告，在運研所訂定的校園周邊行人安全改善指引，我們有參考借鏡日本、韓國，包括委員剛才所秀出來的這些優良的作法，我們都有放在這個參考指引裡面。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，這個需要我們儘速加快推動，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好的做法我們趕快去做。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們其實都有指引出來，內政部國土署主要有負責這個業務。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我會去要求內政部國土署，我們兩個部會配合，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：沒有問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們努力的把它改善。","剛剛也有很多委員問到高齡換照不考駕駛能力，我們不管什麼原因換照是不是考這三個認知能力？"],["陳部長世凱：認知能力是用這三個題目沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，只有這三個嗎？局長，您目前換照的措施有包含哪些？"],["陳局長文瑞：目前高齡換照包括體檢，還有認知功能測驗，認知功能測驗裡面有三個程序，第一個就是時間、空間，第二個就是記憶力，第三個就是協調。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。來，部長，我們看日本怎麼做，其實剛剛聽起來，家裡有長輩的不免可能會覺得好像這也是巴氏量表其中類似的做法。但是我們看一下，在日本有分成兩個年齡層，較年輕的會有一個培訓課程，通過就直接換發駕照；較高的年齡則是會有個認知測試，這個認知測試就跟剛剛講的一樣，但是重點是什麼？不是測試完就沒有了，它有培訓課程包括說明駕駛實際能力的車輛測試，目前我們有做到這個嗎？局長，有沒有？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，培訓大概跟我們現在一般的受訓講習比較……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是指考照前，換照的過程會有需要測量的嗎？"],["陳局長文瑞：換照目前還沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，部長，這就是原因所在，我當然知道交通部很急著回應社會的一些感覺，但是好像你們只是停留在將原來較高年齡的認知測試年齡往下調。"],["陳部長世凱：我們新的方案裡面其實都有加入講習。"],["鍾委員佳濱：新的方案有加入了？"],["陳部長世凱：有加入。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那趕快跟社會宣布。"],["陳部長世凱：有宣布了，至少半天的講習。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有包括實際的車輛測試？"],["陳部長世凱：如果有肇事紀錄的年長者，他們就會加入實地的訓練。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，這個要宣布讓大家知道。","再往下看，剛剛也有委員問到用藥的問題，我們知道酒後不能開車，有沒有聽過吃藥後不能開車的？我不是講毒藥喔。"],["陳部長世凱：這個當然有影響。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們也知道隨著年齡增加，可能長者會有經常要用藥的需求，不同的藥物會產生不同的影響力，有人說包括降血壓、止痛都有可能會妨礙你，本來是可以正常駕駛的，可能會造成你的能力下降，有沒有這個可能性？"],["陳部長世凱：有可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我們希望未來你們精進的換照制度，除了包括認知，除了包括實際操控能力，是不是也要增加一些用藥指引的建議？剛剛有委員問到，這個可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：我們會啟動跨部會的溝通。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那就請衛福部進來協助，我們最後的結論很簡單的說。","另外就是強車險，強車險目前是金管會配合推動，交通部過去對於一些有肇事風險可能的，強車險的目的是幫助受害者去填補風險，但是以昨天的例子來講，萬一我是開車的家長，我的車有保強車險，一定有嘛，我載著小孩在車內，我被撞了，我受傷有賠，我的強車險有包含我，但是不包含乘客險，這個部長知道嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果這時候我的小孩受傷了，我的車有強車險，因為我沒有肇事責任，所以在無肇事責任的情況之下，我的強車險只保障駕駛本人，不保障乘客，您覺得這樣的保障夠不夠？萬一類似的情況有造成肇事的車輛，衝擊其他無肇事責任的車輛，造成裡面的駕駛跟乘客受傷，卻沒有得到強車險的保障，您覺得這個需不需要補強？"],["陳部長世凱：我們針對大車的部分有啦，運輸業有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：運輸業是因為他是職業運輸嘛，如果是自小客的部分呢？"],["陳部長世凱：自小客的部分應該可以自己加保。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，您說的，這是一個部分。最後是我的結論，其實大部分的被保險人、大部分的車主認為有強車險是只要他有受傷就可以賠，車內乘客也可以賠，錯！如果你是被撞，你沒有肇事責任，車上的乘客是不賠的。這個部分我要求金管會趕快去補強，也希望未來交通部在相關對駕駛人的指引上告知他這一點，他在投保的時候，如果覺得保障不足，要自己額外加保，或者請保險局去研發，讓保險公司有新的保單來保障，你同意嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你也支持嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後結論我很快的講，希望在校園周邊及人口稠密地區有些減速、緩衝或一些行人防護的措施，這個部分你們有在做了，請你們把它提出來。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外，換照的測試項目，你們也說了，其實有說要加強宣導。另外用藥指引請融入，最後汽車第三人責任險的部分，未來怎麼強化駕駛人的認知，這個部分也請交通部加強宣導，可以嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：可以，沒有問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝。","請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-12","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","黃健豪","何欣純","蔡其昌","徐富癸","邱若華","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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有請陳士凱部長好 請陳部長"},{"start":11.786,"end":11.886,"text":"董事長"},{"start":42.186,"end":57.337,"text":"那部長當時你當天也說會回去再研議嘛那很一樣還有痛心的事我們看到那四個11天本週一在新北市三峽發生重大的車禍事故三人不幸罹難12多人受傷那大多數都是國中小學生"},{"start":57.697,"end":85.377,"text":"那七十八歲駕駛他在三個月前剛完成換照短時間內又釀成三十十二傷的重大事故那交通部昨天也召開記者會嘛那有宣布七十五歲換照下修至七十歲預計明年上路也針對駕駛的駕照管理發布三個策略那第一個是考試加嚴然後增加鑑別度然後還有建立回訓的制度加強安全意識還有換照制度的改革那相信交通部目前也正在還有正在規劃中嘛"},{"start":86.238,"end":103.518,"text":"那大概多久會有具體的做法報告委員我們三個月之後會提出換照制度改革的具體的這個方案那也請部長說明那這個分別的主持單位是這三個這三個應該都是公路局都會是在公路局嗎對"},{"start":104.892,"end":119.468,"text":"OK 好 那目前因為我們看到公共局的規定75歲以上的駕駛人他患照需要經過體檢然後還有視力 辨色力還有聽力 視知活動能力還有其他就是其他的重大疾病評估然後進行認知測驗那"},{"start":122.05,"end":142.121,"text":"實務上部長您認為這樣的制度真的能夠篩檢出高風險的駕駛人嗎是報告委員所以我們現在整個改革的機制裡面其實我們有加了其他的危險認知的部分危險感知的部分那另外我們對於市之是否健全以外它是否靈活活動度的部分我們也會進行測驗跟測試這項測驗是由誰來做測驗"},{"start":145.203,"end":160.38,"text":"我們到時候會跟目前我們是找診所診所在做包含衛生署也都有做我們是重新來設計這套鑑定的檢測標準嗎它是否還是最低門檻我們會不會還是它只是加嚴"},{"start":162.236,"end":185.745,"text":"當然啦報告委員我們整體的這個危險感知的部分也會加進來所以整套的這個設計我們三個月之後會提出一個系部跟委員再來報告那本期在上一次有針對就是桃園巴德他這個事故有詢問過部長駕駛如果他是證實因為身體突然不適然後導致事故當時也有問過部長那交通部和衛福部有沒有"},{"start":187.045,"end":210.823,"text":"當時您交通部的回覆是沒有既有的聯防機制那經過這次事件後交通部和衛福部會建立什麼樣的機制因為未來我們的整體的改善的機制其實跟衛福部也相當相關包括我們在體檢的部分我們也希望說衛福部也可以幫忙因為現在衛福部有一個老人的免費健檢那我們希望把安全駕駛的這個健檢的項目能夠放進去那未來我們會盡量跟他們連線我們其實應該有開過會有溝通過吧"},{"start":214.506,"end":240.632,"text":"那跟衛福部那邊連線就是說有哪些人是吃藥哪些藥物會造成價值要求的影響是什麼時候開會的跟我們報告一下剛剛委員所提到大概是資訊借接的這個部分嘛是什麼時候開會的資訊借接的部分在公務局跟我們報告一下這個東西有一個處罰條例資訊回答我的問題嘛什麼時候嘛應該是前年"},{"start":246.588,"end":258.264,"text":"13年因為現在衛福部不管是我們國內的健保資料庫還是公路駕駛系統還有身心障礙的通報平台都已經數位化多年了難道交通部不能直接和衛福部討論嗎看我們是不是可以建立一個聯防機制"},{"start":260.075,"end":281.352,"text":"已經討論了 那這個東西必須要有這個那再請提供當時的討論結論已經在修那個處罰條例增訂第92條現在已經在這個行政院了或需要送到這個立法院來部長我們接著看到我們就是在高齡長者換照的時候他我們必須要進行這個認知的功能測試那部長您知道有幾個測試嗎也知道總共有幾項"},{"start":286.624,"end":303.253,"text":"三個有三項嘛那這是第一項和第二項的那您認為這個測試的目的是什麼報告委員這個是針對他的認知包含空間的認知時間的認知還有他的坦白說啦是記憶力啦因為我們是針對他是否失智的這個狀況我們在做測試"},{"start":305.467,"end":321.812,"text":"是這個狀況那你認為這個足夠嗎報告委員我們這個有一個醫學的諮詢委員會當時是跟交通安全的這個醫學諮詢委員會裡面的專家跟學者包含醫生各科的醫生大家所研擬出來的因為60歲到80歲是退化"},{"start":322.472,"end":344.49,"text":"快的一個階段嗎那我們是不是要再跟衛福部共同來就是研議提升測試的難度還有經濟報告員剛剛的這一套其實是日本現在也是在用的連日本的這個整個測試也是用這個但未來我們還會再加強例如說危險感知的部分也會加強還有安全的這個駕駛的這個講習他的觀念的講習我們也會來加進來那針對有肇事的人他的實地的訓練我們也會來加強"},{"start":351.257,"end":370.548,"text":"好 那本席今天也向部長提出建議就75歲以上的駕駛人 我們是不是可以他的換照頻率我們從三年一次 然後調整每年一次呢我覺得我們可以去討論啦就是說分年齡用不一樣的級距下去讓他有不一樣的頻率這個部分我們來檢討OK 好 謝謝部長好 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謝謝委員還有各位官員 我們請林靜儀次長"},{"start":26.664,"end":56.007,"text":"委員好 次長您辛苦了當然很多新聞早上已經露出了所以我這邊紛紛的獲得了一些資訊那這個我也非常的震驚因為這是昨天晚上的新聞我不知道您是否有看到有 我們之前有發現但您身為長久以來都是性評委員會的委員也是許多女醫師的偶像也很會經營社群我相信像我的流量可能不如您但是我已經收到很多女醫師很在意這件事您那邊應該也更多啦"},{"start":57.668,"end":62.751,"text":"我是因為太忙所以我沒有去翻會訊但是今天早上記者來問我我才發現說1月"},{"start":65.461,"end":92.42,"text":"部長在這邊承諾說希望他們要改選理事長結果4月他大剌剌的發會訊說他身體康復了他要付出他要為婦產科學院貢獻另外他要帶30位年輕的醫師到日本去做交流還有做一些presentation等等的我不知道您是否他們應該快出發我不知道這是幾月幾號學會對學會理事長他現在要出國開會啦他現在要出國開會"},{"start":94.662,"end":120.524,"text":"但因為我有注意到其實次長之前對於權勢不對等的這種性騷你有做蠻多發文的我當然也驚呆了因為他放出來的這個list說有30位非常優秀的年輕醫師他要帶著他們去交流但你也可想而知我們也平常都開了很多國際學會嘛在這些場合會有蠻多權勢不對等是不是會有點擔心也想知道您"},{"start":121.545,"end":142.415,"text":"的相關處置後續會不會跟部長繼續追這件事情我想委員跟我們都在同一個學會那這樣的事情的發生事實上對於專業的形象是非常非常大的傷害那事實上我相信從今年應該是一月份一直到現在部長跟我其實都持續有跟學會這邊做溝通就是說"},{"start":143.335,"end":172.339,"text":"也希望學會這邊當然我們還是對於事件的調查以及後續法律上所賦予的相關的權利這個我們尊重但是我們也希望學會要能夠理解這是一個非常重要的影響到醫師生育而且它在醫學倫理上面甚至對於我們年輕醫師是一個很大的傷害的事件那我們也不斷的跟學會這邊溝通希望學會可以了解跟注意到不論是在性別的敏感度上面或社會的敏感度上面"},{"start":172.739,"end":193.26,"text":"要有更積極的處理因為記者揭露了這個會訊還有他們即將出國您是否今明兩天也會做一些動作其實我上禮拜就一直都在跟學會這邊說請他們要能夠注意到這件事情大家對於整個因為包含這整個事件的受害者也是我們自己的"},{"start":194.201,"end":217.54,"text":"成員是我們自己的會員所以我想請他們要能夠注意到相關我想在學會的甚至是理見士也要能夠理解這件事情不單純只是理事長自己一個人的事情是整個醫界整個婦產科界以及我們在前輩對於我們年輕醫師應有的詮釋上不應該的行為以及應該有的尊重我還是強調我希望學會這邊能夠重視"},{"start":219.902,"end":247.464,"text":"那當然這邊也是早上一些年輕醫師給我的建議因為你們之前有說你們也應該要親自到理監事會去溝通他們已經隔了四五個月沒有任何的動作但之前曾經衛福部有回函其他的委員說第一因為是人民團體你們比較難去做管理這是他們自治選出來的第二你們認為說可以先從提升醫師的自律開始"},{"start":247.944,"end":262.53,"text":"但這件事一般人觀感好像也蠻難接受的因為殺人放火然後跑來說我們要來提升法治的教育這件事已經蠻嚴重的可是你現在是提升醫師的自律如果提升醫生自律有效你們可能十年前就這樣做了嘛"},{"start":263.69,"end":288.581,"text":"年輕醫師他們覺得台大醫院已經2025年1月25就已經在他們的官網上發布說經訪查相關人員並釐清事情始末後確認性騷擾事件成立且情節嚴重那他們早上說問我說這是另類的台灣之光嗎他還代表我們全國的婦產科醫師到國外去跟人家做交流"},{"start":289.281,"end":301.052,"text":"因此他們有想到了一個方法在這邊也想請次長聽聽看因為你們常常說衛福部沒有權利去管人民團體但是衛福部卻把專科醫師的甄選制度交給了醫學會大家我們都考過嘛我們要經過很嚴格的口試"},{"start":311.991,"end":329.843,"text":"比試或是面試還會問你醫學倫理相關的問題結果現在掌管全國所有醫師到底誰可以拿到專科醫師執照的人是台大醫院網站上認證確認性騷擾事件成立且情節嚴重這不是很荒謬嗎是"},{"start":331.064,"end":350.059,"text":"所以這是一個我還是再一次強調醫師這邊我們不論是現有醫師雖然是醫師身份但是他也受性平三法的管理他在工作職場上面屬於性平法性平工作法他如果是學校附屬他又是在性平性平等教育法再來性別性騷擾防治法醫師一樣受到這個規範"},{"start":351.48,"end":371.498,"text":"所以第一個事情當然在現有的法治的狀況之下我們希望各機關各要能夠去落實原來在性平三法中對於受害者的保障以及相關的性平調查那性平調查之後剛剛我想委員也指導了他不論是在醫師法相關懲戒的辦法裡面事實上是可以更積極來做處理這是第一個部分第二個部分其實我想委員也知道在"},{"start":373.079,"end":395.924,"text":"這個像這個案子因為現在您提到的是主治醫師那有些是住院醫師之前有住院醫師的案子住院醫師在受訓過程中其實他除了原有的技術的訓練有相關的手冊要求他學到什麼程度之外我相信住院醫師在受訓過程中他本身在一定應該有的不論是法律遵循或者是人格操守尤其最重要的是醫學倫理的部分他的"},{"start":397.264,"end":406.208,"text":"訓練醫院我們講的教學訓練醫院本來也包含具有這樣的責任而且教學訓練醫院在這個過程中他也具有這個責任來為後續能夠去參與相關專科醫師這個考試應該還有一定程度的把關"},{"start":412.191,"end":436.207,"text":"當然大家最不能接受的就是這位性侵的住院醫師爆發才發現原來理事長也是他當時的主任嘛所以他也完成了他的住院醫師訓練最後也通過了專科醫師考試所以我是想在這邊請衛福部研擬一下你們不能給人家責任可是你們又不去究責畢竟你賦予他的還真的是個蠻大的責任啊你也知道錄取率"},{"start":437.828,"end":441.85,"text":"可能從90%到100%不等啦 不等不等嘛 不等 所以有人還是會被刷掉的嘛所以你要怎麼樣透過你賦予他這個權利去加強對我們學會的管理因為你現在看起來是沒法源 你管不了他"},{"start":455.497,"end":473.013,"text":"好跟委员报告谢谢委员关心这件事情我们医事司正在研拟就是说当然这一次的事件比较受瞩目是因为是著名的顶尖医院然后又是这个主管级的医师那所以会受到比较多的更多的关注不过以医事司这边我们所管理的医事人员来讲"},{"start":473.834,"end":486.994,"text":"會發生這一類的事件不單純只是醫師不單純只是婦產科醫師所以我們正在全面盤點因為相關的法規可能會散在各醫事人員的法規裡頭甚至有些醫事人員他也可能都只是他原來的這個所謂職業倫理那一塊"},{"start":488.817,"end":510.967,"text":"那现在我们正在跟医师施政在整理盘点就是七月份会有一个一轮的会议那在那之前我们会有一些草案或者是一些拟定家长对学会的观点对学会以及我们的专级医疗人员这些都是考过国家考试的这些人员他应该有后续的一些除了现有的性平三法之外有没有在专业上面再刻意其他的责任"},{"start":511.467,"end":525.842,"text":"應該是說考過國家考試之後其實還有一個不管是專科醫師審查他是沒有國家考試但你已經賦予他這個權利了所以你應該要也去限制他因為這個沒有人可以接受啦早上年輕的醫師傳簡訊給我他是寫說"},{"start":528.224,"end":545.862,"text":"大家是敢怒不敢言因為他們就是被他審查的人其實跟委員有報告就是說包含其實我們之前有另外一個案子是別的專科醫師那也是性騷或性騷跟性侵成立我們在衛福部就特別跟相關的團體提到這樣子的醫師如果他"},{"start":546.923,"end":560.299,"text":"以他的名義或者是他有參與的活動是跟我們衛福部去申請經費的話基本上我們是不支持的但現在偏偏是遇到我們審查的頭他也試射這件事情所以對於專業學會內部這邊的選擇我們會來要求要特別注意再來剛剛真的蠻多衛委員"},{"start":566.866,"end":590.836,"text":"已經問過了啦但我是想知道說因為你之前呢比如說計程車司機兒童工作者教師通通都要因為涉案被停止醫師剛講到權力不對等尤其是這兩個案例有的兩個都非常明顯都是權力不對等不管是他跟同人之間同儕之間或者是有的是醫師跟病患之間"},{"start":592.478,"end":615.727,"text":"這是我之前有看了很多很欣賞您的發言啊在台中市教師疑似全市欣賞的時候您就說得非常的好沒有人想要列屋可是台中市政府4月以來該停聘的不停聘該擴大調查沒有積極調查讓台中市的父母四處詢問那接下來還有一個元能會主委的事件其實你也都記憶猶新嗎"},{"start":618.649,"end":640.561,"text":"當時對全市性騷擾的態度非常明確也堅定就是立即停聘停止剛剛有提到不管是這兩個案例有一個人是繼續上班兩個人應該都繼續上班吧所以其實如果依照現在的我們已經修訂過的性騷擾防治法13條之一事實上機關這邊就可以停止他的原來的工作那這邊是不是要請院長回答"},{"start":644.701,"end":654.195,"text":"當時這個教授繼續上班但是修法後三條之一是可以停止他現有的對 因為他有教師的身份他有教師的身份所以當他涉案的時候就應該要予以停職"},{"start":657.288,"end":678.255,"text":"當時候他涉案的時候是主任不過我們成立調查的時候他已經不是主任了所以這個就是對於陳姓醫師那對於那個黃姓醫師事實上他涉案以後已經被我們的姓評委員不好意思院長停職好像跟不是主任的定義差很多"},{"start":680.036,"end":703.157,"text":"事實上他的他之所以能夠做那些很多都是因為他是主任那事實上我們已經判定以後我們甚至已經禁止他去接觸所有的你是說判定還是說涉案開始因為如果他是教師他是因為教師因此擁有醫師這個身份對"},{"start":705.278,"end":725.166,"text":"對 那他教師那邊就應該要馬上停止教師的部分比醫院慢一點因為教師部分還要到學校的性評委員我是說我們醫院的性評委員調查以後我們就禁止他接受甚至只要他在辦公室裡面他的門都要打開的這個事實上是我們有在婦產部裡面"},{"start":728.147,"end":752.178,"text":"那至於黃姓14他涉案以後雖然沒有停止但是我們已經禁止他獨自看病患所以有應該是說雖然沒有真正的停止但是我們有就是包括組織醫師或包括甚至在婦產部裡面他們也有規定只要他在門診裡面門都要打開"},{"start":753.438,"end":769.11,"text":"沒關係 因為剛剛這個次長有很多答覆所以大家普遍 我是反映大家的心聲啦希望您也可以在這方面從您以前的發言看起來是重視的可以做更多的著力好嗎謝謝 我們就是希望可以亡羊補老 快點"},{"start":770.291,"end":799.297,"text":"好 謝謝那對不起最後一個問題最後一個問題問次長這個是最近也是許多男性還有泌尿科醫師會重視的前總統拜登他自己揭露說他有罹患攝護腺癌而且是末期那我們都知道反正末期他的餘命真的非常的短後來我們來回顧台灣的數據攝護腺癌是唯一在十大癌症中持續發生率繼續往上升而且在男性這邊標準化發生率是排名的第三名"},{"start":800.157,"end":822.077,"text":"後來我去跟泌尿科醫學會調資料大部分發現也真的是末期那晚期發現餘命可能僅有5年那尤其是他有家族史發生機率又是一般人的10倍以上我今天想探討的是泌尿科醫學會他們在這邊希望我可以幫忙發聲因為我們的這個篩檢可不可以納入他們如果"},{"start":822.737,"end":849.528,"text":"不管是他們乖乖的去做癌篩乖乖的去做成人健檢去做老人健檢或是勞工健檢都沒有包含這個項目就是PSA的抽血除非是他花錢來做自費的健檢我們也有去回顧了一些文獻像英國他是認為有可以有其必要性有其重要性那美國的預防醫學部認為可以兩年篩檢一次這邊是不是可以請衛福部研議"},{"start":850.868,"end":875.056,"text":"可不可以納入5I篩檢或是其他的謝謝委員指導這件事情因為想我們進入到高齡化社會之後那因為這是一個跟男性年齡增長有關的一個疾病所以他是不是評估納入篩檢那他的這個預算的狀況怎麼處理以及篩檢的這個效益到底如何這個部分是不是容我跟到時候病人可以學會跟我們的國健署"},{"start":875.476,"end":903.061,"text":"是 那我具體建議 泌尿科學會給我的建議是50歲以上希望每兩年可以篩檢一次PSA主席你覺得呢好 主席一直看我 不能再問他們是傾向用PSA我們再來跟學會這邊討論啦學會這邊 因為他還出他有包含就是所謂的他的效益以及我們應該要的預算上怎麼樣編列跟落實這個部分讓我們跟學會再來討論好 謝謝 那就一個月謝謝 謝謝次長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":931,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（12時3分）謝謝主席、謝謝委員及各位官員，我們請林靜儀次長。"],["林次長靜儀：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：次長，你辛苦了。早上有許多新聞被揭露出來，而我這邊也紛紛獲得許多的資訊，當然我也感到非常的震驚，這是昨天晚上的新聞，不知你是否有看到？"],["林次長靜儀：有，我們之前有發現。"],["陳委員菁徽：長久以來你都身為性平委員會的委員，也是許多女醫師的偶像、也很會經營社群媒體，相信像我的流量就可能不如你，但是我已經收到許多女醫師在意這件事的訊息，而你那邊應該也收到更多了。我是因為太忙並沒有去翻會訊，但是今天早上記者來問之後我才發現，原本部長1月在這邊承諾希望他們改選理事長，結果他在4月就大喇喇地發會訊說他身體康復了、他要復出、他要為婦產科學會做出貢獻，另外，他還要帶30位年輕醫師到日本進行交流等等。他們應該快要出發了，我不知道是幾月幾號……"],["林次長靜儀：學會？"],["陳委員菁徽：對，學會理事長，他現在要出國開會、他現在要出國開會。因為我注意到次長之前對權勢不對等的性騷做了滿多的發文……"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：當然我也驚呆了，因為他放出的list說要帶30位非常優秀的年輕醫師去交流，我們平常也都參加過許多國際學會，可想而知，在這些場合會有滿多權勢不對等的狀況，是不是會有點擔心？我想知道你的相關處置，後續會不會與部長追這件事情？"],["林次長靜儀：委員與我們都在同一個學會，發生這樣的事情，事實上，對於專業形象是非常非常大的傷害。事實上，從今年1月份一直到現在，部長與我都持續與學會進行溝通，當然我們還是對於事件的調查及後續法律賦予的相關權利都予以尊重，但是我們也希望學會能夠理解，這是非常重要的事情，不只會影響到醫師的聲譽，而且在醫學倫理上，甚至對年輕醫師是一個很大的傷害事件。我們也不斷的與學會溝通，希望學會能夠了解及注意，無論是在性別敏感度上或社會敏感度上都要有更積極的處理。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為記者揭露了這個會訊，並得知他們即將出國，今明兩天你是否也會做一些動作呢？"],["林次長靜儀：其實上個禮拜我就一直告訴學會，請他們能夠注意這件事情，因為這整個事件的受害者也是我們自己的成員、也是我們自己的會員。"],["陳委員菁徽：是。"],["林次長靜儀：因此，我想請他們能夠注意，甚至是學會的理監事也都要能夠理解，這件事不單純只是理事長自己一個人的事情，也是整個醫界、整個婦產科界、以及前輩對於年輕醫師在權勢上不應該有的行為及應該有的尊重。我還是要再次強調，希望學會這邊能夠重視。"],["陳委員菁徽：這邊有早上一些年輕醫師給我的建議，因為你們之前說過你們應該親自去理監事會那邊溝通，但是他們已經隔了4、5個月都沒有任何動作，根據之前衛福部曾經回函其他委員表示：第一，因為是人民團體，你們比較難做管理，因為是他們自治選出來的；第二，你們認為可以先從提升醫師的自律開始。但一般人在觀感上對這件事好像也滿難接受，就像殺人放火之後再說要提升法治的教育，這件事已經滿嚴重了，你現在才說要提升醫師的自律，如果提升醫師的自律有效，你們可能在10年前就這樣做了嘛！年輕醫師認為，臺大醫院於2025年1月25日就在官網上發布，經訪查相關人員並釐清事情始末後，確認性騷擾事件成立且情節嚴重，所以他們早上問我，這是另類的臺灣之光嗎？他還要代表全國的婦產科醫師去國外與人家交流耶！","因此，他們想到了一個方法，在這邊也想請次長聽聽看！因為你們常常說衛福部沒有權力去管人民團體，但是衛福部卻把專科醫師的徵選制度交給了醫學會，我們也都考過嘛！必須經過嚴格的口試、筆試或面試，還會詢問醫學倫理相關的問題，結果現在掌管全國所有醫師到底誰可以拿到專科醫師執照的是臺大醫院網站上確認性騷擾事件成立且情節嚴重的人，這不是很荒謬嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：是，我還是要再次強調，醫師雖然是醫師身分，但他也受到性平三法的管理，在工作職場上是屬於性平工作法，如果是學校附屬醫院則是屬於性別平等教育法，再來是性騷擾防治法，醫師一樣受到這個規範。因此，第一件事情，在現有的法治狀況之下，我們希望各機關（構）能夠落實原來在性平三法中對於受害者的保障以及相關的性平調查；在性平調查之後，剛剛委員也指導了，無論是在醫師法等相關的懲戒辦法中，事實上是可以更積極的處理，這是第一個部分。","第二個部分，其實我想委員也知道，現在這個案子已經提到是主治醫師，不過，也有可能會是住院醫師，譬如之前有住院醫師的案子，然而，在住院醫師的受訓過程中，除了原有的技術訓練有相關手冊要求學到什麼程度之外，我相信在住院醫師的受訓過程中，對於他本身應該有的，無論是法律遵循或人格操守，尤其最重要的是醫學倫理的部分，他的教學訓練醫院本來就具有這樣的責任，而且教學訓練醫院在這個過程中也具有這個責任，為後續參與相關專科醫師考試做一定程度的把關。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，但大家最不能接受的是，這位性侵的住院醫師爆發後，才發現原來理事長也是他當時的主任，所以他也完成了他的住院醫師訓練，最後也通過專科醫師考試。所以我想在這邊請衛福部研擬一下，你們不能給人家責任，可是你們又不去究責。畢竟你賦予他的還真的是個蠻大的責任啊！你也知道錄取率可能從90%到100%不等。"],["林次長靜儀：婦產科醫師現在的錄取率還蠻高的。"],["陳委員菁徽：不等嘛！所以有人還是會被刷掉。你要怎麼樣透過你賦予他這個權力去加強對我們學會的管理？因為你現在看起來是沒法源，你管不了他。"],["林次長靜儀：跟委員報告，也謝謝委員關心這件事情，我們醫事司正在研擬，當然這一次的事件比較受矚目是因為是著名的頂尖醫院，然後又是主管級的醫師，所以會受到比較多的關注。不過以醫事司管理的醫事人員來講，會發生這一類事件不單純只是醫師，也不單純只是婦產科醫師。所以我們正在全面盤點，因為相關的法規可能會散在各醫事人員的法規裡頭，甚至有些醫事人員，也可能都指他原來的職業倫理那一塊。現在我們跟醫事司正在整理盤點，7月份會有一個醫倫的會議，在那之前我們會有一些草案或者是一些擬定，就是說……"],["陳委員菁徽：加強對學會的管理。"],["林次長靜儀：對學會以及我們的專技醫療人員，這些都是考過國家考試的，這些人員除了現有的性平三法之外，有沒有在專業上面再課以其他的責任。"],["陳委員菁徽：應該是說考過國家考試之後，其實不管是專科醫師審查，雖然他是沒有國家考試，但你已經賦予他這個權力，所以你應該去限制他，因為這個沒有人可以接受啦！早上年輕的醫師傳簡訊給我，他是寫大家敢怒不敢言。"],["林次長靜儀：我知道。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為他們就是被他審查的人。"],["林次長靜儀：跟委員報告，其實我們之前有另外一個案子，別的專科醫師也是性騷跟性侵成立，我們在衛福部就會特別跟相關的團體提到，這樣子的醫師如果以他的名義或者他有參與的活動是跟我們衛福部申請經費的話，基本上我們是不支持的。"],["陳委員菁徽：但現在偏偏是遇到我們審查的頭也事涉這件事情。"],["林次長靜儀：所以對於專業學會內部的選擇，我們會來要求。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，要請你們特別注意。再來，剛剛真的蠻多位委員已經問過了，但我想知道，因為之前比如說計程車司機、兒少工作者、教師，統統都要因為涉案被停職。剛剛講到醫師權力不對等，尤其是這兩個案例，兩個都非常明顯是權力不對等，不管是他跟同仁的同儕之間，或者是醫師跟病患之間。我之前看了，也很欣賞您的發言，在臺中市教師疑似權勢性騷擾的時候，您就說得非常好，沒有人想要獵巫，可是臺中市政府4月以來，該停聘的不停聘，該擴大調查卻沒有積極調查，讓臺中市的父母四處詢問。接下來還有一個原能會主委的事件，其實你也都記憶猶新，當時對權勢性騷擾的態度非常明確、堅定，就是立即停聘、停職。剛才有提到這兩個案例，有一個人是繼續上班，兩個人應該都繼續上班吧？"],["林次長靜儀：其實如果依照現在我們已經修訂過的性騷擾防治法第十三條之一，事實上機關這一邊就可以停止他原來的工作。"],["陳委員菁徽：這部分是不是要請院長回答？"],["林次長靜儀：當時修法前……"],["陳委員菁徽：當時教授繼續上班，因為……"],["林次長靜儀：但是修法後第十三條之一是可以調離他原來的工作。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，因為他有教師的身份，所以當他涉案的時候就應該予以停職。"],["吳院長明賢：對於陳姓醫師，當時他涉案的時候是主任，不過我們成立調查的時候，他已經不是主任了。對於黃姓醫師，事實上他涉案以後，已經被我們的性平委員會……"],["陳委員菁徽：不好意思，院長，停職好像跟不是主任的定義差很多。"],["吳院長明賢：事實上他之所以能夠做那些，很多都是因為他是主任。經我們判定以後，甚至禁止他去接觸所有的女醫師。"],["陳委員菁徽：你是說判定，還是說涉案開始？因為如果他是教師，他是因為教師因此擁有醫師這個身份嗎？"],["吳院長明賢：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：教師那邊就應該馬上停職。"],["吳院長明賢：教師的部分比醫院慢一點。"],["陳委員菁徽：涉案就要馬上停職。"],["吳院長明賢：因為教師部分還要到學校的性平委員，我是說我們醫院的性平委員調查以後，我們就禁止他接受，甚至只要他在辦公室裡面，他的門都要打開，這個是婦產部的部分。至於黃姓醫師，他涉案以後雖然沒有停職，但是我們已經禁止他獨自看病患，所以應該是說雖然沒有真正的停職，但是包括主治醫師，甚至在婦產部裡面也有規定，只要他在門診裡面，門都要打開。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為剛剛次長有很多答復，所以我是反映大家的心聲啦！從你以前的發言看起來是重視的，希望你在這方面可以做更多的著力好嗎？"],["吳院長明賢：謝謝，我們就是希望可以亡羊補牢。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。對不起，最後一個問題問次長，這個是最近，也是許多男性還有泌尿科醫師會重視的。前美國總統拜登自己揭露他有罹患攝護腺癌，而且是末期。我們都知道癌症末期的餘命真的非常短，我們來回顧臺灣的數據，攝護腺癌是唯一在十大癌症中持續發生率繼續往上升，而且在男性這邊標準化發生率是排名第三名。後來我去跟泌尿科學會調資料，大部分發現時也真的是末期。晚期發現，餘命可能僅有五年，尤其是他有家族史，發生機率又是一般人的十倍以上。","我今天想探討的是，泌尿科醫學會他們希望我可以在這邊幫忙發聲，我們的這個篩檢可不可以納入？不管是他們乖乖的去做癌篩、乖乖去做成人健檢、去做老人健檢或是勞工健檢，都沒有包含這個項目，就是PSA的抽血，除非是他花錢來做自費的健檢。我們也有去回顧一些文獻，像英國是認為有其必要性、有其重要性；美國的預防醫學部認為可以兩年篩檢一次。這邊是不是請衛福部研議，可不可以納入五癌篩檢或是其他的抽血？"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員指導這件事情，我們進入高齡化社會之後，因為這是一個跟男性年齡增長有關的疾病，所以是不是評估納入篩檢，這個預算的狀況怎麼處理，以及篩檢的效益到底如何？這個部分是不是容我跟泌尿科醫學會及國健署再來評估。"],["陳委員菁徽：我具體建議，泌尿科醫學會給我的建議是50歲以上，希望每兩年可以篩檢一次PSA。主席你覺得呢？主席一直看我，不能再問了。"],["林次長靜儀：他們是傾向用PSA嗎？我們再來跟學會討論，因為還有包含它的效益以及我們在預算上怎麼編列跟落實，這個部分讓我們跟學會再來討論。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝，那就一個月。"],["林次長靜儀：好，一個月，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員，謝謝次長。PSA是專一性非常高的，所以這個是非常有效，當然我是期待納入。","接續我們請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":138,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-12","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","徐巧芯","盧縣一","黃國昌","劉建國","涂權吉","林淑芬","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我們要來談核電"},{"start":229.029,"end":253.965,"text":"不如我們好好地思考說台灣如何強化電網的韌性怎麼提高再生能源的配比去年預算審查的時候本席就認為像國園院等單位其實更應該積極地發展綠能的科技研究跟新能源的科技研究所以我想請教國園院的是有關綠能發配電"},{"start":257.927,"end":283.558,"text":"智慧管理與效能提升技術發展計畫本期看到你們這個報告那有寫說成功開發本土化配電網路管理平台有效管理雲林線配電潰線與再生能源並往發電並推廣到全台13個縣市的配電的潰線調度中心使用所以想要請教"},{"start":285.097,"end":290.843,"text":"高院長是說近年來我們是否再擴大這項計畫的應用範圍普及到全台灣是的 我們這個已經從一個雲林線開始取代原來外商的配電系統"},{"start":304.421,"end":328.821,"text":"13個縣市已經改用我們的系統是國內自主我們本院研發的同時這個系統也獲得2021年全球百大的一個R&D發明獎所以我們會持續來做這個配電網的研究還有電網韌性的一個分析才持續在這個綠能增加的狀況下能夠維持這個供電的穩定度協助台電公司來做這些"},{"start":330.506,"end":356.273,"text":"好 那再請教中研院就是說關於國家淨零排放那永續發展的這個社會目標我們可不可以擴大來鼓勵我們研究人員投入相關的研究案來扶植國內的產業技術升級周副院長我們請那個管理院中心陳玉高主任好 好 主任"},{"start":358.281,"end":368.832,"text":"我們在研發的過程中間確實對每一項我國需要的技術都做了未來的佈局所以陸陸續續都會開始"},{"start":373.337,"end":398.496,"text":"上次質詢的時候有向我們中研院請教說數位化研究資料開放的問題那主要是因為中研院各所目前有建置各自的平台那可是很難跨資料庫去檢索所以我今天還想再追問就是說我們上一次數位文化中心有提到說現在的規劃建置這個Open Academy"},{"start":401.418,"end":427.914,"text":"希望透過一戰式的方式讓研究者可以對應各自的研究需求運用更多元的資料那本席是肯定這樣的路線可是我們同心也擔心說如果欠缺精緻化的分類處理那只是把研究資料通通不分青紅皂白塞到這裡來那可能還是會難以符合這個研究的需求所以本席想要請教的是說那這個平台規劃要怎麼樣整合"},{"start":430.455,"end":450.832,"text":"分類各大主題類別的資料庫那之前本席詢問說這種跨資料庫檢索功能的時候中醫院是回復說各研究所各中心的資料庫的收入內容應該相當多元而且取得內容的授權跟開放條件的名單開放條件各異所以要統合資料庫的整合檢索執行上好像會有困難"},{"start":458.058,"end":476.532,"text":"可是我如果現在規劃這個Open Academy那如何來協調各機構的這種合作以及這個資料的整合那橫向的單位的合作就會是順利的嗎哪部分又會遇到困難我們請數位文化中心主任來回答"},{"start":478.458,"end":503.99,"text":"謝謝委員隨詢上次我們聽委員的意見之後我們馬上雙稳旗下一方面希望各個單位在進行他們的資料庫的檢索的時候按照上委員的標準希望能夠重新改善包括您提及的幾個比較重要的標標標計時所也好台視所的一個規範我們將進行下來希望各所在既定的一個授權範圍合理之下我們能夠開放能夠讓更多的研究者或大眾能夠參考"},{"start":504.93,"end":527.567,"text":"您提到Open Academy的设计师和我们的Open Museum我们基本上是针对于个人研究者他们的需求他们自己在里面可以建立他们发展他们议题的设想然后经过议题设想收集这些材料这些材料他们可能还要到各个平台或各个数位的资料库里面去攫取然后再去收集然后在他们自己本身的资料库里面建立起来"},{"start":528.127,"end":547.604,"text":"資料化 從議題的發想 資料的彙整 到他們的論文的寫作寫作之後 透過我們的Open Academy可以進一步跟學界溝通然後用Outsourcing的方式 使它更完美的呈現這是我們理想 當然是一個篡權循環發展之後 他們可以自己重新再規劃或開展他的議題"},{"start":548.425,"end":562.59,"text":"据您谈的这个一个平台我们会另外一部分来去进行希望各个单位各处所在合理范围就在授权方面问题的情形之下能够进行能够会认起来这是我们目前朝中努力的方向好OK"},{"start":563.69,"end":584.751,"text":"那中研院有關於中研院的解凍報告裡頭有提到說這個Open Academy預計年底會完成雛形那現在一年即將也就是過了一半所以目前當然想要詢問一下進度還有這個平台的主要"},{"start":585.572,"end":613.032,"text":"是提供研究者使用嗎還是這個所謂的研究者指的是哪些人是有身份限制嗎還是一般的學生也算在內還是人人都可以是研究者好 報告委員我是那個中研院資訊所所長廖鴻源是那過去2006做了7年的那個數位典藏國家研究計畫研發分享的總主持人那這個問題其實先生剛剛您問的問題就是年底要不要開放這件事情是一個多媒體的問題"},{"start":614.193,"end":636.708,"text":"Exactly就跟現在的大型語言模型相關因為多媒體它涵蓋的範圍是語言、文字還有影像、還有視訊、還有聲音但當我們碰到大型語言模型的時候現在要讓這些研究者能夠大家都能夠用的時候或者是學生能用的時候因為每一種媒體它被表達出來的程度是不一樣的"},{"start":638.309,"end":660.627,"text":"語言它是唯一的因為它寫白紙黑字但是聲音的時候你在處理它的時候因為它有時序上的順序所以也比較相對容易但是影像就不一樣了那因為我們現在在處理大型語言模型的時候我們希望這些東西都能夠合起來讓這個資料庫能夠被擴充能夠大量的多元然後能夠更有用更有用處"},{"start":661.388,"end":677.886,"text":"所以在這個部分還是大家都在研究的階段但是我們眾院有團隊非常厲害的團隊在做這個事情在資訊所還有資創中心所以我們可以把這個東西在年底我們一直都有結果出來所以變成還在研究中"},{"start":678.487,"end":693.028,"text":"不只我們有一直研究然後也一直有成果出來只是說剛剛我講的多媒體它被表達的程度是不一樣的所以我們的進展在事業上算是也是不錯的非常好的這個跟委員報告一下好"},{"start":694.909,"end":713.854,"text":"那我想另外我們想知道說我們做資料的開放跟共享我們其實還是常常會遇到所謂的著作權的問題那如果根據著作權法30條著作財產權的存續的時間是著作人的生存期間以及他死亡後的50年也就是說"},{"start":714.854,"end":723.778,"text":"超過這個年限的文物或文獻就屬於公共財任何人都可以自由運用所以智慧財產局也有回覆過本席他說如果單純將古物進行掃描轉檔通常不具有個人創意的投入這個掃描圖檔原則上並非受到著作權法所保護的著作所以想要提醒中研院的是說無論現在或將來"},{"start":740.166,"end":752.751,"text":"這些年代久遠已經沒有著作權問題的文獻或古物是否都能掃描上網百分百公開讓國人以及所有有興趣的人可以研究來輕鬆運用我想這個也是給一個建議應該沒問題吧謝謝委員我們會再研議"},{"start":759.272,"end":780.619,"text":"在合法的範圍內會好那不好意思最後20秒我還想提一下說為在台南的這個南部院區去年有舉辦南部開放日那吸引很多爸爸媽媽帶著小孩一起來大家回饋都很好那本期去年就有跟院長提過希望今年規模更大一點那主題更多元"},{"start":782.64,"end":805.338,"text":"那可是我知道我們國內的旅費有被藍白刪了15%而且又不得留用所以可能會影響到各所各中心想要到南部舉辦這些活動的意願跟規模所以我還是想替南部的鄉親請命希望中研院能繼續舉辦南院開放日並且至少維持去年這樣的一個規模不曉得有沒有機會"},{"start":806.94,"end":825.343,"text":"對 我們南部縣區今年開放一定會再辦規模還是會維持去年量還是說還有機會更精彩如果有機會再擴大我們現在在探討各種可能性將來有缺定案的話再跟委員報告這件事情我們一定會做謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":931,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時55分）謝謝秀寳主席。請核安會陳明真主委、中研院周美吟副院長、國家原子能科技研究院高梓木院長。"],["主席：請陳主委、中研院周副院長、高院長。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝。首先請教核安會，其實藍白兩黨這樣的大凍大刪，真的大大影響部會的運作，本席要強調，預算本來就應該理性監督，而不是毫無理由讓部會那麼地難堪。我們看看中研院好了，業務費被砍30%，可是中研院的性質和一般行政機關不同，業務費不只是行政事務費而已，還包含研究經費。另外，研究人員的國內外差旅費和出國教育訓練費等等也被刪15%，而且還不得流用喔！所以造成很多研究人員要參加學術會議，或是要移動到南院辦活動等等，都受到很大的限制。","核安會負責全國的核能安全、輻射安全、放射性廢棄物安全管制等業務，而且你們沒有地方單位可以支援，所以相關的稽查、檢查都需要核安會的業務費支應，因為你們的業務費被凍結30%，各項管制業務就存在很多不確定性。還有輻射偵測中心的預算也很重要，預算被凍結的結果，就是會影響全臺環境輻射的即時監測、環境輻射累積的劑量監測，及其它對應、支援實驗室的正常運作，影響核安的管制。","我認為在藍白外行干預專業，聯手亂下我國核能政策指導棋的現在，核能安全的管制更應嚴加重視，所以核物料的管制和核電廠除役的安全管制預算必須儘早解凍，才能有效確保安全。另外本席之前在核安會業務報告備詢時有提到一項臨時提案，要求核安會對於核電拆除計畫書應嚴加審查，同時要未雨綢繆，我們要趕緊培訓專業的除役人員，並對核三停機除役工作儘早研議因應。請教主委，目前核電除役的準備工作是否如期進行？有遇到什麼問題尚待克服嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：我們按照現有的條件儘量把它做好。當然，業務費被刪是有影響的，但我們會儘量按照既有的條件把它做好，讓它安全無虞，這是我們現在努力在做的。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，所以正在進行除役的工作嘛！"],["陳主任委員明真：對。"],["林委員宜瑾：另外，昨天民眾黨重啟核三公投，被藍白以人數優勢粗暴通過，本席認為與其談核電，不如好好思考臺灣如何強化電網的韌性，怎麼提高再生能源的配比。去年預算審查的時候，本席就認為像國原院等單位，其實更應該積極發展綠能和新能源的科技研究，所以本席想請教國原院有關綠能發配電智慧管理與效能提升技術發展計畫。本席看到你們的報告有寫到，成功開發本土化配電網路管理平台，有效管理雲林縣配電饋線與再生能源併網發電，並推廣到全臺13個縣市的配電饋線調度中心使用。所以想要請教高院長，近年來我們是否會再擴大這項計畫的應用範圍，將它普及到全臺灣？"],["高院長梓木：是的，我們已經從雲林縣開始，取代原來外商的配電系統，13個縣市已經改用我們的系統，這是由本院自主研發的，同時這個系統也獲得2021年全球百大R&D發明獎。我們會持續做配電網的研究，還有電網韌性的分析，希望在綠能增加的狀況下，能夠維持供電的穩定度，我們會協助台電公司做這些事情。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，再請教中研院，關於國家淨零排放永續發展的社會目標，可不可以擴大鼓勵研究人員投入相關研究案，扶植國內的產業技術升級？"],["周副院長美吟：請環研中心陳于高主任說明。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，請主任說明。"],["陳主任兼執行秘書于高：委員好。我們在研發的過程中，確實對每一項我國需要的技術都做了未來的布局，這些陸陸續續都會開始。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。上次質詢的時候，有向中研院請教數位化研究資料開放的問題，主要是因為中研院各所目前有建置各自的平台，可是很難跨資料庫檢索。所以本席今天還想再追問，上次討論數位文化中心時有提到，現在規劃建置Open Academy，希望透過一站式的方式，讓研究者可以對應各自的研究需求，運用更多元的資料。","本席肯定這樣的路線，可是我們同時也擔心，如果欠缺細緻化的分類處理，只是不分青紅皂白通通把研究資料塞到這裡，可能還是難以符合研究的需求。所以本席想要請教，這個平台規劃要怎麼整合、分類各大主題類別的資料庫？之前本席詢問這種跨資料庫檢索功能的時候，中研院是回復，因為各研究所、各中心的資料庫收錄內容相當多元，而且取得內容的授權和開放條件各異，所以要統合資料庫的整合檢索，執行上好像會有困難。可是如果現在規劃Open Academy，如何協調各機構的合作以及資料的整合？橫向的單位合作就會是順利的嗎？哪個部分又會遇到困難？"],["周副院長美吟：請數位文化中心主任回答。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。"],["陳召集人熙遠：謝謝委員垂詢。上次聽了委員的意見之後，我們馬上雙管齊下，一方面希望各個單位在進行他們的資料庫檢索時，能夠按照委員的標準重新改善，包括您提及的幾個比較重要的，比如近史所也好或是臺史所的規範，這些我們都會進行，希望各所在既定的合理授權範圍內能夠開放，讓更多研究者或大眾參考。對於您提到的Open Academy，設計師配合我們的Open Museum，我們希望基本上是針對個人研究者的需求，讓他們可以自己在裡面發展他們的議題設想，然後經過議題設想蒐集材料。這些材料可能還是要由他們到各個平臺或各個數位資料庫去擷取、蒐集，然後在他們本身的資料庫裡建置起來。這樣從議題的發想、資料的彙整一直到論文寫作，寫作之後，透過Open Academy，當然就可以進一步跟學界溝通，用outsourcing的方式使他的東西更完美地呈現。這是我們的理想，當然也是一個善的循環，發展之後，他們自己也可以重新再規劃或開展議題。至於您談的各平臺，我們會以另一部分進行，希望各單位、各處所在合理範圍之內、在授權方面沒有問題的情形之下能夠進行、彙整起來，這是我們目前努力的方向。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，OK。中研院的解凍報告裡頭提到，Open Academy預計年底完成雛形，現在一年也即將過一半了，所以我想詢問一下目前進度。還有，這個平臺主要是提供研究者使用嗎？所謂的研究者指的是哪些人？有身分限制嗎？是否一般學生也算在內？還是人人都可以是研究者？"],["廖所長弘源：報告委員，我是中研院資訊所所長廖弘源，過去自2006年起做了7年數位典藏國家型計畫研發分項的總主持人。關於您剛剛問的這個問題，也就是年底要不要開放，這件事情是多媒體的問題，exactly就跟現在的大型語言模型相關。多媒體涵蓋的範圍是語言、文字、影像、視訊還有聲音，現在碰到大型語言模型要讓這些研究者都能夠使用，或者學生也能用的時候，每一種媒體被表達出來的程度是不一樣的。語言是唯一的，因為寫白紙黑字，轉為聲音處理的時候，因為有時序上的順序，也相對比較容易；但是影像就不一樣了。由於我們現在處理大型語言模型的時候，希望這些東西都能夠合起來，讓這個資料庫能夠被擴充、能夠大量、多元，然後更有用處，所以這部分還在大家都在研究的階段。但是中研院有非常厲害的團隊在做這件事情，包括資訊所和資創中心，所以我們可以在年底把這個東西……我們一直都有結果產出。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以還在研究中？"],["廖所長弘源：不只研究，我們不但一直研究，也一直有成果出來，只是如我剛剛講的，多媒體被表達的程度是不一樣的，所以我們的進展在世界上仍算是不錯的、非常好的。這點要跟委員報告一下。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。另外我們想知道的是，做資料開放跟共享其實還是會常常遇到著作權的問題。根據著作權法第三十條，著作財產權的存續時間是著作人的生存期間以及其死亡後的50年，也就是說超過這個年限的文物或文獻就屬於公共財，任何人都可以自由運用。智慧財產局也回復過本席，如果單純將古物進行掃描、轉檔，通常不具有個人創意的投入，那麼這個掃描圖檔原則上並非受到著作權法所保護的著作。所以我想提醒中研院的是，無論現在或將來，這些年代久遠、已經沒有著作權問題的文獻或古物是否都能掃描上網、百分百公開，讓國人以及所有有興趣的人可以研究、輕鬆運用？我也是給一個建議，可不可以？應該沒有問題吧？"],["周副院長美吟：謝謝委員，我們會研議在合法範圍內處理。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。不好意思，最後20秒，我還想提一下。位在臺南的南部院區去年舉辦了南部開放日，吸引很多爸爸媽媽帶著小孩一起來，大家的回饋也都很好，本席去年就跟院長提過，希望今年規模更大一點、主題更多元。我也知道你們的國內旅費被藍白刪了15%，而且又不得流用，所以可能會影響各所、各中心想到南部舉辦這些活動的意願跟規模。可是我還是想替南部鄉親請命，希望中研院能繼續舉辦南院開放日，並且至少維持去年這樣的規模，不曉得有沒有機會？"],["周副院長美吟：南部院區今年開放一定會再辦。"],["林委員宜瑾：那規模還是會維持去年那樣？"],["周副院長美吟：規模至少會有……"],["林委員宜瑾：還是有機會更精彩？"],["周副院長美吟：如果有機會，可以再擴大。我們現在正在探討各種可能性，將來定案的話，再跟委員報告。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK，好。"],["周副院長美吟：這件事情我們一定會做。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝副院長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝宜瑾召委質詢，官員請回座。"],["主席（林委員宜瑾）：那我們現在先來處理解凍專案報告案2案，請議事人員宣讀。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-12","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","謝龍介","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","吳沛憶","鍾佳濱","萬美玲","范雲","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","林沛祥"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案6案；二、處理\n114年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案9案；三、處理114年\n度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院單位預算解凍案1案","agenda_id":"1145101_00009"}}},{"id":"161726","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161726","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7dbda0794c4f2488179da433bb611ec39b925d7a793ed1225326075f793af8843da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:57:46 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袁副總裁"},{"start":8.737,"end":30.814,"text":"我也好部長好副總裁好我想昨天很重要的是520賴清德總統在就職的週年演說宣示台灣要成立所謂的主權基金打造國家級的投資平台在這邊我就不禁要說了部長還有副總裁台灣民眾黨的版本在去年3月就已經送到立法院"},{"start":31.835,"end":52.068,"text":"但是我們在這中間過程中包括立法院的專案報告跟央行給我們的回覆以及財政部的說明都說目前沒有必要而且突然間又突然有必要了是嗎所以部長我想問一下財政部有沒有接到行政院指示準備參與主權基金還有它成立的時程"},{"start":54.031,"end":80.498,"text":"這個部分呢 行政院後續應該會再召開所以沒有參與前面的討論邀同相關部會一起來做開會討論副總裁 我們的版本是在央行底下成立啦我知道總裁一直很不希望在央行來主管他說給錢沒問題啦 要你們管有問題請問 原副總裁 央行有沒有參與總統有關主學基金成立的相關討論還有目前你們的時程是什麼"},{"start":81.804,"end":109.138,"text":"報告委員因為長期以來我們都會把我們對這一塊議題的報告送成你們的立場一直就是外匯存體可以借你們用但是我要收利息啦是吧我們的原則是不能夠無償使用不能無償使用就是你們可以拿出來第二個你們不願意當主管機關對吧對部長那中央有跟你討論過由財政部來扛下主責機關政策的大旗嗎"},{"start":110.912,"end":136.374,"text":"目前并没有做这样的讨论在主权基金全世界都是大部分至少我们知道最熟悉的新加坡是财政部主导接下去台湾会怎么样可能也是上一次央行有提出专案报告给财委会的书面报告有三种形式第一个反正财政部发债第二个部分是财政部拨款"},{"start":137.093,"end":138.354,"text":"所以這三個方法都是財政部財政部有沒有意見"},{"start":156.769,"end":182.775,"text":"跟委員報告各國的財政部的執掌內容並不相同這是一個那第二個對於有關財源來自於哪裡這是央行在報告裡面所以央行的報告也沒跟你討論是只講說財源來自哪裡好所以重點是我覺得主權基金是件好事這是上一屆吳欣穎委員代表台灣民眾黨在立法院不斷的"},{"start":185.473,"end":208.694,"text":"倡議而且正式的修法最重要的是我們在總統大選的時候也成為台灣民眾黨的政見那去年3月我們就已經提案在央行在財政部我們都希望能夠進行討論但是很遺憾行政院一直沒有理會直到昨天看到總統突然間冒出來今天再問到兩位好像你們也沒參與所以整個過程我認為啦"},{"start":210.134,"end":233.187,"text":"可能又變成是一個突發奇想或者是就像國軍軍人突然間要說恢復軍事審判到今天還是沒有任何下文我不希望它又是一個突然間曇花一現的構想我希望兩位對於台灣的主權基金應該現在就應該有進一步的想法甚至要積極的參與"},{"start":235.368,"end":262.696,"text":"對於立法院還有總統都已經這樣說的重要政策我們不應該像兩位現在的狀況什麼都不知道可以嗎你們可以告訴我在一個月之內可以給我一個初步的時程表嗎或者是簡單的說美國川普總統二月份簽署了一個行政命令說要成立美國主權基金三個月五月的時候白宮發言人已經表示財政部跟商務部已經擬定了設立計畫"},{"start":266.112,"end":284.292,"text":"只花三個月然後新加坡當時成立主權基金花了八個月我現在不知道我們的總統520宣布之後你們要花幾個月所以部長在我下一次在這邊質詢的時候可能我就會問你相關的時程啦你現在都不知道嗎還不知道"},{"start":287.011,"end":310.454,"text":"跟委員說明了這個部分行政院會要同國發會央行以及各財主單位一起來做研議規劃好 副總裁剛剛講的卓文泰院長在日前接受專訪的時候也說了他說到底誰來出資啊有心有所屬對方不一定滿意會再慢慢協調所以這個對方是不是指央行"},{"start":313.09,"end":324.634,"text":"報告委員 我不知道他的行為是怎樣他心有所屬 劣跡啦但是你好像不滿意啦 所以他要再跟你慢慢協調啦所以院長有來跟你們商量了嗎 還沒"},{"start":326.508,"end":342.367,"text":"報告委員我剛才講過我們長期以來我們對這個議題我們都有提供我們的長端去參考好 接下去的問題其實今天財政部在這邊我們要強調的是不管主權基金它的目的是什麼都要益處重要的財源對吧"},{"start":344.742,"end":372.434,"text":"這個方向應該沒有錯吧當然財源來自於哪裡是可以討論的所以像在新加坡的主權基金它的收入2025年新加坡的財政總收入是1499億新幣但是就有271億來自國家儲備的投資回報也就是相關的主權基金也就是政府的稅收來源裡面每五塊錢就有一塊錢是來自於主權基金這其實是一個穩健的財源"},{"start":373.775,"end":393.352,"text":"第二個他的對GDP的貢獻也非常的高加上新加坡政府在他們國內有足夠的財源至少在剛剛講的居住正義上面有相當多的資源可以做公共住宅社會住宅最重要的是94%他都可以"},{"start":394.213,"end":418.366,"text":"建設所謂的社會住宅出租給民眾讓民眾不會有房屋的問題所以我們希望的是財源進來之後要怎麼用這才是重點增加了錢很好但錢像現在國發基金也有其他也有 台商公司也有但它沒有辦法完整的挹注到政府的財源的話其實都是白搭"},{"start":419.326,"end":446.119,"text":"主權基金不應該是那個樣子國發基金是要去扶植我們國內的企業但主權基金是要幫政府增加財源所以這個部分包括央行當時我有回報是說央行不需要啊央行外匯存體都有委託操作啊所以央行的獲益很穩定但是央行的獲益副總裁你們每年大概的利息收到多少你們委外操作賺到的錢有多少"},{"start":450.492,"end":471.432,"text":"每年投資報酬率高不高?介於2.2到3之間所以您滿意嗎?您覺得滿意嗎?國外操作收益率3.53最高自行經營的收益率大概最高2.66這在跟主權基金比起來,你覺得你們這樣子的操作"},{"start":472.912,"end":492.698,"text":"那個報委這兩個性質是不一樣所以主權基金操作應該要更好是但是就是不是央行來做我覺得這個國家就是希望這個政策下來各單位應該是有志一同大家一起努力如果這個方向還是你做你的我做我的就不會做好"},{"start":493.118,"end":522.501,"text":"那個報告委員我們一直主張有一個專責機構來負責這個操作是所以就是大家要去找出一個共同性嘛不應該還是這樣你推我我推你最後就是在去年我們超徵的時候其實我在這裡也有跟部長說過超徵之後的錢要怎麼用大家都有想法我們主張有兩個第一個該還債有閒第二個其實每年超徵三四千億真的可以成立土權基金啊"},{"start":523.533,"end":548.361,"text":"成立主權基金再去賺更多的錢而不是平白無故的不管是用到哪裡去把它花光光今年大家在審特別條例感覺就是要把稅基剩餘還有去年的超徵金額全部用完我覺得不是好事主權基金是將來超徵的財源之一而且它應該長期穩定每一年政府"},{"start":549.281,"end":562.831,"text":"施政經濟的成果應該是全民共享而不是單純的發錢或者是去做其他的東西而是應該拿來在益助政府可以賺更多的錢來做更多的建設對吧"},{"start":564.372,"end":585.622,"text":"所以兩位今天我希望昨天聽完很興奮今天看到你們兩位的回答我又很沮喪所以我希望主權基金應該有個具體的時程我希望一個月之內有一個大概有的方向否則我們在這邊又是恐歡喜一場部長你可以做到一個月之內告訴我你們規劃或者是跟央行之間協調的過程嗎"},{"start":588.052,"end":613.806,"text":"委員這個部分行政院會要從相關部會來會商是但是兩位如果我們在財政委員會站在這裡還得到這樣的答案我覺得是蠻一笑大方的為什麼因為總統昨天講話今天兩位最重要的官員完全不知道立法委員也問不到東西這不是一個民主國家該有的方式"},{"start":615.18,"end":629.066,"text":"變成總統也是黑箱然後到立法院來沒有人可以回答我們的問題這不是一個懂得溝通的政府或者是你們行政事務官有積極參與決策的政府這樣的狀況會讓人民沒有信心"},{"start":633.368,"end":661.469,"text":"好嗎我希望一個月之內我會再問兩位最後就是我們還是希望啦主權基金有三個原則第一個一定要有專業的經營團隊第二個要明確的投資策略還有風險控管第三個要有明確的法源依據還有公開透明就是我們希望兩位在將來行政院討論有關主權基金的時候這幾個原則一定要納入所有相關的內容可以嗎"},{"start":662.998,"end":670.665,"text":"我們的意見會納入好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員的質詢 下一位請陳玉珍委員質詢請謝謝主席 有請財政部莊部長還有負稅署財政部莊部長 負稅署署長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1104,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時57分）謝謝主席，請財政部部長及央行副總裁。"],["主席：請莊部長、嚴副總裁。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長好、副總裁好。昨天很重要的是520賴清德總統在就職周年演說宣示臺灣要成立所謂的主權基金，打造國家級的投資平台，在這邊我就不禁要說了，部長及副總裁，台灣民進黨的版本在去年3月就已經送到立法院，但是我們在過程中，包括立法院的專案報告，跟央行給我們的回覆，以及財政部的說明，都說目前沒有必要，現在突然間又有必要了是嗎？部長，我想問一下，財政部有沒有接到行政院指示準備參與主權基金，以及它成立的時程如何？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分行政院後續應該會再召開……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你沒有參與前面的討論？"],["莊部長翠雲：會邀集相關部會一起來開會討論。"],["黃委員珊珊：副總裁，我們的版本是在央行底下成立的，我知道總裁一直很不希望由央行主管，他說給錢沒問題，要你們管有問題，請問嚴副總裁，央行有沒有參與總統有關主權基金成立的相關討論？目前你們的時程是什麼？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，因為長期以來，我們都會把我們對這塊議題的報告送呈給……"],["黃委員珊珊：你們的立場一直就是外匯存底可以借你們用，但是我要收利息啦，是吧？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我們的原則是不能夠無償使用。"],["黃委員珊珊：不能無償使用就是你們可以拿出來；第二個，你們不願意當主管機關，對吧？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，請教部長，中央有跟你討論過由財政部來扛下主責機關政策的大旗嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前並沒有做這樣的討論。"],["黃委員珊珊：目前沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：主權基金就全世界大部分來講，至少我們知道最熟悉的新加坡是財政部主導，接下去臺灣會怎麼樣？可能也是上一次央行有提出專案報告，給財委會的書面報告有三種形式，第一個財政部發債；第二個是財政部撥款，出資成為淡馬錫一樣，像新加坡是財政部出資成為淡馬錫的股東，淡馬錫投資再去取得國營企業的股權；第三個是財政部出資設立，大部分的錢是來自於公部門。所以這三個方法都是財政部，財政部有沒有意見？還是你們也不知道，這個央行亂寫的？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，各國的財政部執掌內容並不相同，這是第一個。第二個，有關財源來自於哪裡，這是央行在報告裡面……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以央行的報告也沒跟你們討論？"],["莊部長翠雲：央行的報告是只講財源來自哪裡。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以重點是，我覺得主權基金是件好事，這是上一屆吳欣盈委員代表台灣民眾黨在立法院不斷的倡議，而且正式的修法，最重要的是我們在總統大選的時候也成為台灣民眾黨的政見，去年3月我們就已經提案，在央行、在財政部我們都希望能夠進行討論，但是很遺憾行政院一直沒有理會，直到昨天看到總統突然間冒出來，今天再問到兩位，好像你們也沒參與，所以整個過程，我認為可能又變成是一個突發奇想，或者是就像國軍軍人突然間說要恢復軍事審判，到今天還是沒有任何下文，我不希望它又是一個突然間曇花一現的構想，我希望兩位對於臺灣的主權基金現在就應該有進一步的想法，甚至要積極的參與，對於立法院還有總統都已經這樣說的重要政策，不應該像兩位現在的狀況，什麼都不知道，可以嗎？你們可以在一個月之內給我一個初步的時程表嗎？簡單地說，美國川普總統2月份簽署了一個行政命令，要成立美國主權基金，經過三個月，5月的時候白宮發言人已經表示財政部跟商務部已經擬定了設立計畫，只花三個月。再者，新加坡當時成立主權基金花了八個月，我現在不知道我們的總統在520宣布之後你們要花幾個月，所以部長，我下一次在這邊質詢的時候，可能就是會問你相關的時程啦，你現在都不知道嗎？還不知道？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員說明，這個部分行政院會要由國發會、央行以及各財主單位一起來做研議規劃。"],["黃委員珊珊：副總裁，剛剛講卓榮泰院長在日前接受專訪的時候也說了，他說到底誰來出資，心有所屬，對方不一定滿意，會再慢慢協調。這個「對方」是不是指央行？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，我不知道他的含義是怎樣。"],["黃委員珊珊：他心有所屬，是你的錢啦！但是你好像不滿意啦，所以他要再跟你慢慢協調。所以院長有來跟你們商量了嗎？還沒？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，我剛才講過，我們長期以來對這個議題，我們都有提供意見給長官參考。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下去的問題，今天財政部在這邊，我要強調的是，不管主權基金的目的是什麼，都要挹注中央的財源，對吧？這個方向應該沒有錯吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然財源來自於哪裡是可以討論的。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以像在新加坡的主權基金收入，2025年新加坡的財政總收入是1,499億新幣，但是只有270億來自國家儲備的投資回報，也就是相關的主權基金，也就是政府的稅收來源裡面，每5塊錢就有1塊錢是來自於主權基金，這其實是一個穩健的財源。第二個，它對GDP的貢獻也非常高，加上新加坡政府在他們國內有足夠的財源，至少在剛剛講的居住正義上面有相當多的資源可以做公共住宅、社會住宅，最重要的是，94%都可以建設所謂的社會住宅出租給民眾，讓民眾不會有房屋的問題。所以我們關心的是財源進來之後要怎麼用，這才是重點，增加了錢很好，但錢像現在國發基金也有啊，其他也有啊，台商公司也有，但是它沒有辦法完整的挹注到政府財源的話，其實都是白搭啦！主權基金不應該是那個樣子，國發基金是要去扶植我們國內的企業，但主權基金是要幫政府增加財源，所以這個部分，包括央行當時給我的回報是說央行不需要啊，央行外匯存取都有委託操作啊，所以央行的獲益很穩定，但是央行的獲益，請教副總裁，你們每年大概的利息賺到多少？你們委外操作賺到的錢有多少？每年投資報酬率高不高啊？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：介於2.2%到3%之間，每一年不一樣。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以您滿意嗎？您覺得滿意嗎？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：因為那個……"],["黃委員珊珊：委外操作收益率3.53%最高，自行經營的收益率大概最高2.66%，這跟主權基金比起來，你覺得你們這樣的操作……"],["嚴副總裁宗大：這兩個性質是不一樣。"],["黃委員珊珊：不一樣，所以主權基金操作應該要更好。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，但就不是央行來做，我覺得這個國家就是希望這個政策下來各單位應該是有志一同，大家一起努力，如果這個方向還是你做你的、我做我的，那就不會做好啦！"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，我們一直主張有一個專責機構來負責操作。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以大家要去找出一個共通性嘛，不應該還是這樣你推我、我推你。","最後，在去年我們超徵的時候，其實我在這裡也有跟部長說過，超徵之後的錢要怎麼用，大家都有想法，我們主張有兩個，第一個是優先該還債，第二個是其實每年超徵三、四千億，真的可以成立主權基金，成立主權基金再去賺更多的錢，而不是平白無故的，不管是用到哪裡去把它花光光。今年大家在審特別條例，感覺就是要把歲計賸餘還有去年的超徵金額全部用完，我覺得不是好事。主權基金是將來超徵的財源之一，而且它應該長期穩定，每一年政府施政，經濟的成果應該是全民共享，而不是單純的發錢，或者是去做其他的東西，而是應該拿來再挹注政府可以賺更多的錢，來做更多的建設，對吧？我昨天聽完很興奮，今天看到你們兩位的回答，我又很沮喪，所以我希望主權基金應該有個具體的時程，我希望一個月之內大概有一個方向，否則我們在這邊又是空歡喜一場。部長，你可以一個月之內告訴我你們規劃或者是跟央行之間協調的過程嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分行政院會要邀集相關部會來會商的。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，但是如果我們在財政委員會，站在這裡還得到兩位這樣的答案，我覺得是蠻貽笑大方的，為什麼？因為總統昨天講話了，今天兩位最重要的官員完全不知道，立法委員也問不到東西，這不是一個民主國家該有的方式啦，變成總統也是黑箱，然後到立法院來，沒有人可以回答我們的問題，這不是一個懂得溝通的政府，或者是你們行政事務官有積極參與決策的政府，這樣的狀況會讓人民沒有信心，好嘛？我希望一個月之內，我會再問兩位。","最後，我們還是希望啦，主權基金有三個原則，第一個，一定要有專業的經營團隊；第二個，要有明確的投資策略，還有風險控管；第三個，要有明確的法源依據，還有公開透明。我們希望兩位在將來行政院討論有關主權基金的時候，這幾個原則一定要納入所有相關的內容，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員的意見會納入參考。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，謝謝。"],["主席（賴委員士葆）：謝謝黃委員的質詢。","下一位請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-13","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","林思銘","王世堅","林楚茵","廖先翔","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部、金融監督管理委員會、中央銀行就「房屋稅2.0課徵亂象與金融機構對不動產\n融資緊縮及中央銀行信用管制措施對房地產交易之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中\n華民國 114 年度中央政府總預算決議有關金融監督管理委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案 39 案；\n三、處理中華民國114年度中央政府總預算決議有關金融監督管理委員會主管預算凍結專案報告\n案9案","agenda_id":"1145101_00008"}}},{"id":"161725","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161725","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db69877ff8a07c878eda433bb611ec39b925d7a793ed1225321614a9641f3446d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"11:46:38 - 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而主要的問題我們也去了解是因為內部的承辦同仁就台北市追緣處的承辦同仁在家住上家住錯誤那台北市發現以後他也立即的去做更正而且通知所有的各個大稅議員而且已經重新都開單了繳款期限也都往後延這台北市政府他自己單獨的一個問題發生了五萬多件"},{"start":122.978,"end":128.219,"text":"至於新北市的部分它是對於有單獨一個權狀的車位它不把它"},{"start":129.507,"end":152.356,"text":"隨同他的組件物用途來做使用那這個部分呢我們會發通函告訴他們就是公共設施應該要隨同組件物雖然他有單獨的權狀都應該隨同組件物的用途來稅率來課徵那這個部分我們也都會再處理那事實上這是涉及到新北市政府他本身自己在認定的部分因為新北市政府在過去我們修這個2.0之前他們"},{"start":156.217,"end":182.188,"text":"才很晚才通過他們的房屋稅差別稅率所以他在實務執行上並沒有實務執行上碰到過這樣的一個情況所以這一次在他們那邊因為沒有曾經的一個經驗而發生在認定上的一個起義照你這麼講的話就是說這五萬多件再加上新北市的上萬件這些部分就好像都是個案都是因為地方政府的之前已經經過了很多的整合跟測試那還是會發生這麼多的問題啊"},{"start":184.952,"end":206.409,"text":"這個件數您說五萬多元三萬多元它的問題是同樣發生的同樣的一個類型的問題我們對於這個發生的一個情況都有去了解它的一個太陽然後看看要怎麼樣方式來做解決所以先請教說那後續這個是行為作業的疏失還是因為配套的問題那造成這些民怨跟錯誤"},{"start":208.21,"end":237.448,"text":"雖然有這個補救跟這個延長申報那未來 未來財政部有什麼更具體的作為能夠讓有這樣子可以大家一個一致性那這個繳的稅是國家的稅民眾繳的稅是國家的稅啊這個是不允許發生的錯誤啊是不是謝謝委員的一個提示對於當然第一年發生這樣第一年的開徵有些這些個別的狀況我們都會持續的收集然後及時的解決同時呢也會把它彙整起來未來會把它做一個很好的一個指引"},{"start":238.129,"end":239.851,"text":"讓未來不要再發生相同的一個狀況"},{"start":255.222,"end":271.808,"text":"委員好 主委好114年度金管會預算案在第二幕金融監理編列預算2367萬8千元那但是這個主要是用於這個金融機構風險控管推動防詐政策但是我們"},{"start":273.523,"end":292.15,"text":"我們國內的這個詐騙案件還是層出不窮這個手法不斷的更新成效並沒有呈現出相對應的改善所以台北市這個打詐羽毛板的數據來說光是上個月單月的財損金額就高達13億"},{"start":294.719,"end":304.875,"text":"兩千一百萬左右而且這只是台北市的統計數據如果推估到全國各縣市的總額不知道是幾倍以上所以我想"},{"start":306.554,"end":326.913,"text":"雖然金管會在系統建置跟KIC落實方面有投入資源但是人頭帳戶總數這些部分還是持續在增加到113年底全國銀行及信和社的警示帳戶就高達14.93萬戶那尤其單年新增 單一個年度新增超過3萬戶"},{"start":328.354,"end":345.356,"text":"那顯示出這個KYC作業可能存在的重大缺口我想請教主委那是否已經針對不同銀行的KYC執行品質可量化的一個評鑑訂定標準如何強化管理可不可以告訴我們一下好 謝謝委員"},{"start":347.623,"end":373.521,"text":"那個委員過去對這議題都一向非常非常的關心那確實在我們去年去年打炸應該是損失金額最高是11月的126億那到了今年2月大概到60億到3月70那最近有調高到4月大概76億在微幅的上漲確實還有待努力我想說從最高峰我想那個經過各部會的努力確實有一些"},{"start":374.301,"end":402.598,"text":"那個減少啦但是我們還要持續的努力但是就剛委員提到我們對那個警示帳戶的管制這是我們現在管理的重中之重我想我們現在啊自從我們3月開始要求他們現在所有金融機構就應該設立打詐主管這樣我們有監控兩個指標這兩個指標我們按月監控然後這部分呢其實上我們在這部分也給銀行非常大的壓力這部分我們會來持續來做那個主委"},{"start":403.84,"end":418.405,"text":"警示帳戶這部分其實不是啦因為關鍵還是在源頭嘛對不對在開立帳戶的時候如果去落實辨識跟這些封控的程序那所以這個營運局在113年3月21號修正這個部分其實"},{"start":425.816,"end":450.264,"text":"我們不能讓金管會的這個打詐政策只是淪為一個形式嗎當然不會 我們其實也一直在用不同的方法來做這件事情如何嘛 如何能夠制止嘛 對不對你現在人頭戶那麼多我們現在用內外夾擊的方式第一個我們在外部跟各個單位來合作怎麼樣去辨識出警示帳戶的高風險群透過通報還有彼此的警示然後達到這樣二組當然剛剛那個"},{"start":452.205,"end":472.458,"text":"委員提到就是我們做KYC落實KYC我想剛剛也有委員提到比如說我們對一些數位帳戶的開戶因為現在不法集團他很容易以冒名的方式來進行這個帳戶作為申請帳戶然後沒有經過這樣子一個科技辨認那所以這樣子的話就變成"},{"start":473.439,"end":501.266,"text":"他在控管了這樣子的一個不當金流的一個帳戶的一個進出所以如何從這一端來把它制止掉這個部分對 當然我們這個部分因為其實詐團也是推陳出新我們的方法也要與時俱進但是就是要強力的控管啊好不好主委好 謝謝主委謝謝金管委會不是 講錯了 不好意思"},{"start":503.63,"end":508.683,"text":"銀行局 滕局長委員好局長這個"},{"start":511.4,"end":539.793,"text":"我們在113.3月21號修正高齡客戶自立規範第14條要求金管機構金融機構在向高齡者推銷這些金融商品的時候要錄音錄影存這個流存這個銷售過程以利未來做一個查證爭議的部分但是到今天為止還是自立規範對不對是自立規範嗎是沒有明確的強制性執行立法沒有嗎"},{"start":540.393,"end":564.946,"text":"但是跟委員報告,自律規範事實上等同於法律的一個部分所以我們也會列為相關包括內積內控的一個要求範圍之列對啊,你們怎樣管控?我們是以日常監理、實地查訪、金融檢查這樣的方式加強控管,是不是?報告委員是的,我們會從日常監理的要求那金融檢查的部分呢,這個部分也會列為我們加強金錢的一個重點"},{"start":565.789,"end":584.979,"text":"因為高齡者對高齡者銷售的金融產品種類繁多那尤其因為資訊接落的不對稱還有這些風險皆是不足那銷售過程當中是不是有一些誘導性的話術甚至於這些高齡者完全不知道"},{"start":585.953,"end":608.921,"text":"他為什麼要投保他所投為何所以這是正義的案例所以錄影錄音這個確實能夠有效的保障高齡者的權益那金管會是不是會針對錄影錄音進行事後如果有正義的時候對於這些錄影錄音進行語音分析或者是抽樣審核來落實來做這樣子的避免說表面落實但是實時侵犯的這種狀況"},{"start":611.283,"end":625.118,"text":"檢察局在實地精檢的時候呢針對這個錄音帶的部分都會進行相關的調閱跟聽閱然後從這個當中如果發現有不符合治理規範的規定的話都會提列精檢意見我們銀行局都會依法來處理"},{"start":626.247,"end":648.98,"text":"對啦 就是說要這些告認者是最不對稱的告認者被這個資訊最不對稱的一個族群所以說他們需要的是強制性可追溯 可問責的一個強制的保障制度好不好所以這個部分我們會持續來督促銀行要落實好 謝謝謝謝榮寬堂委員接著我們請黃珊珊委員"},{"start":656.07,"end":656.532,"text":"看一看"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1058,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（11時46分）謝謝主席，各位列席官員，大家好。主席，有請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。我們11點50分開放用餐。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：部長早。上個禮拜質詢你的時候有提到，新稅制上路一定要做好萬全的準備，避免造成民眾的困擾，但是房屋稅2.0新制上路大出包，許多民眾陸續接到金額暴增、內容錯誤的稅單，引發大規模的反彈。以臺北市為例，稅捐處發出107萬件稅單當中，就有5萬件誤列非自住稅率，導致稅額溢徵。新北市也出現大量類似的情況，受影響件數也達到萬件以上，甚至有民眾表示，原來的稅額6,000元卻暴增到2萬，增幅超過3倍。","雖然你們事後有開放補辦自住申報，延長申報期限到6月2日，但是我們也強調這不是技術性的錯誤啦！是因為制度設計本身就有問題。在系統推行前，請問部長，有沒有確實地要求地方稅務機關完成整合還有模擬測試？有嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，一定有的，在新法修正以後，我們多次地邀請地方政府來開會，相關的系統設計也都是多次地測試與驗證，這是沒有問題。","剛剛委員提到臺北市的部分，臺北市這五萬多件主要是他有自住的房屋，他也有停車位，但是它把停車位用非自住的稅率2%來課，這個是不合理的，而主要的問題我們也去瞭解，是因為臺北市稅捐處的承辦同仁在加註上加註錯誤，臺北市發現以後也立即去做更正，而且通知各個納稅義務人，已經都重新開單了，繳款期限也都往後延，這是臺北市政府自己單獨的一個問題，發生了五萬多件。","至於新北市的部分，它是對於有單獨權狀的車位，不把它隨同主建物用途來做使用，這個部分我們會發通函告訴他們，公共設施應該要隨同主建物，雖然它有單獨的權狀，都應該隨同主建物用途的稅率來課徵，這個部分我們也都會再處理。事實上這涉及到新北市政府本身在認定的部分，因為新北市政府在過去我們修2.0之前，他們很晚才通過他們的房屋稅差別稅率，所以在實務執行上並沒有碰到過這樣的情況，這一次在他們那邊是因為沒有經驗而發生認定上的歧異。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，部長，照你這麼講的話，這五萬多件再加上新北市的3萬件，這些好像都是個案，都是地方政府的問題，但是之前已經經過了很多的整合與測試，還是會發生這麼多的問題啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：不，這個件數您說五萬多件、三萬多件，它的問題是同樣發生的，是同樣類型的問題，我們對於發生的情況都有去瞭解它的態樣。"],["顏委員寬恒：對，瞭解之後就是說……"],["莊部長翠雲：要瞭解它的態樣，然後看看用什麼樣的方式來做解決。"],["顏委員寬恒：現在我要請教的是，這個是行政作業的疏失，還是因為配套的問題，造成這些民怨跟錯誤，雖然有補救跟延長申報，未來財政部有什麼更具體的作為，能夠讓大家有一致性，民眾繳的稅是國家的稅啊！這個是不容許發生的錯誤啊，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的提示，對於第一年發生這樣的事情，第一年的開徵有些個別的狀況，我們都會持續的蒐集，然後及時的解決，同時也會把它彙整起來，未來會把它做成一個很好的指引，讓未來不要再發生相同的狀況，謝謝委員的提示。"],["顏委員寬恒：謝謝部長，部長請回。","主席，有請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主委好。114年度金管會預算案在第2目金融監理編列預算2,367萬8,000元，主要是用於金融機構風險控管，推動防詐政策，但是國內的詐騙案件還是層出不窮，手法不斷的更新，成效並沒有呈現出相對應的改善，以臺北市打詐儀錶板的數據來看，光是上個月單月的財損金額就高達13億2,100萬元左右，而且這只是臺北市的統計數據，如果推估到全國各縣市的總額，不知道是幾倍以上。雖然金管會在系統建置跟KYC落實方面有投入資源，但是人頭帳戶總數還是持續在增加，到113年底，全國銀行及信合社的警示帳戶就高達14.93萬戶，尤其單個年度新增超過3萬戶，顯示出KYC作業可能存在著重大缺口。我想請教主委，是否已經針對不同銀行的KYC執行品質可量化的評鑑訂定標準？如何強化管理，可不可以告訴我們一下？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，委員過去對這議題都一向非常非常的關心。去年打詐，損失金額最高應該是11月的126億，到了今年2月大概到60億，到3月70億，最近4月有調高到大概76億，在微幅的上漲，確實還有待努力。從最高峰經過各部會的努力，確實有一些減少啦，但是我們還要持續的努力。","剛才委員提到我們對警示帳戶的管制，這是我們現在管理的重中之重，自從我們3月開始要求所有金融機構應該設立打詐主管，我們有監控兩個指標，這兩個指標我們按月監控，其實我們在這部分也給銀行非常大的壓力，這部分我們會持續來做。"],["顏委員寬恒：主委，警示帳戶這部分其實關鍵還是在源頭，對不對？在開立帳戶的時候，如何去落實辨識跟風控的程序，銀行局在113年3月21日修正這個部分，但是我們不能讓金管會的打詐政策只是淪為一個形式嘛。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然不會，我們其實也一直在用不同的方法來做這件事情。"],["顏委員寬恒：如何能夠制止嘛，對不對？現在人頭戶那麼多。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在用內外夾擊的方式，第一個，我們在外部跟各個單位來合作，怎麼樣去辨識出警示帳戶的高風險群，透過通報還有彼此的警示以達到遏阻，當然剛才委員提到我們做KYC，落實KYC。另外，剛剛也有委員提到，比如我們對於一些數位帳戶的開戶……"],["顏委員寬恒：現在不法集團很容易以冒名的方式來申請帳戶，沒有經過科技辨認，這樣子就變成他在控管不當金流帳戶的進出，你們要如何從這一端來把它制止掉？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實詐團也是推陳出新，我們的方法也要與時俱進。"],["顏委員寬恒：就是要強力的控管啊！好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["顏委員寬恒：繼續請銀行局童局長。"],["童局長政彰：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：局長，你們在113月3月21日修正高齡客戶自律規範第十四條，要求金融機構在向高齡者推銷這些金融商品時要錄音、錄影，留存銷售過程，以利未來進行查證爭議，但是到今天為止還是自律規範，對不對？是自律規範嗎？"],["童局長政彰：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：沒有很明確的強制性執行力吧？沒有嘛？"],["童局長政彰：跟委員報告，自律規範事實上等同於法律的一個部分，所以我們也會列為相關包括內稽內控的要求範圍之列。"],["顏委員寬恒：對啊，你們怎麼樣管控？是以日常監理、實地查訪、金融檢查這樣的方式加強控管，是不是？"],["童局長政彰：報告委員，是的，我們會從日常監理的要求，金融檢查這個部分也會列為我們加強金檢的一個重點。"],["顏委員寬恒：因為對高齡者銷售的金融產品種類繁多，尤其因為資訊揭露的不對稱，還有風險揭示不足，銷售過程當中是不是有一些誘導性的話術？甚至於這些高齡者完全不知道他為什麼投保及所投為何，對於這些爭議的案例，錄影、錄音確實能夠有效保障高齡者的權益，事後如果有爭議的時候，金管會是否會對這些錄影、錄音進行語音分析或者是抽樣審核，來避免表面落實但是實質侵犯的這種狀況。"],["童局長政彰：報告委員，檢查局在實地金檢的時候，針對錄音帶都會進行相關的調閱跟聽閱，然後從這個當中，如果發現有不符合自律規範的規定，都會提列金檢意見，我們銀行局都會依法來處理。"],["顏委員寬恒：對啦，高齡者跟資訊是最不對稱的一個族群，所以他們需要的是強制性、可追溯、可問責的強制保障制度，好不好？"],["童局長政彰：這個部分我們會持續來督促銀行要落實。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝顏寬恒委員。","接著請黃珊珊委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-13","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","林思銘","王世堅","林楚茵","廖先翔","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部、金融監督管理委員會、中央銀行就「房屋稅2.0課徵亂象與金融機構對不動產\n融資緊縮及中央銀行信用管制措施對房地產交易之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中\n華民國 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救你叫他們怎麼判只好自己開車或騎車所以我們當時我一直強調說怎麼樣去強化我們的這個大眾運輸的工具甚至我們都有請公務局研議這客輛車能不能開放多一點這樣有車廠救啦真的要不然你沒有開放這樣的政策長者只好自己冒險開車或騎車啦這是一個大問題啦"},{"start":210.84,"end":232.749,"text":"這部分有沒有檢討的空間報告委員這個部分確實分兩個部分一個部分是還在駕車有駕車需求或騎車需求的我們怎麼協助他讓他有更多的安全認知讓他有更多的危險認知然後讓他有更多的安全教育的模式進來讓他先協助他協助他怎麼樣安全駕駛這是一塊我們要做的"},{"start":233.189,"end":259.217,"text":"那另外一塊就是偏鄉的這個交通的部分公共運輸要怎麼樣加強我們當然現在都市裡面公共運輸比較完善但是鄉下確實也是遇到這樣的問題我們當然要來改善所以幸福巴士跟幸福小房的建置對我們來講就相當的重要讓我們的長者能夠很方便的取得公共運輸的時候他自己開車跟騎車需求才可以降低這個部分兩個部分都要同時來檢討跟進行才有效"},{"start":260.997,"end":278.884,"text":"對 部長我知道你們都有心要做但是我們也希望把KPI訂出來啦是是是尤其是我們這個屏東這個資源那麼有限的狀況之下到底多久能夠把這個路線包含這個期程規劃出來我想也希望給我們一個一個月之內給我們一個完整的一個報告好不好好 好"},{"start":279.424,"end":305.95,"text":"是針對這個公共運輸的對是怎麼樣去禁止這樣的一個大眾運輸還有幸福巴士的涵蓋率已經到了94%啦對但是路線的部分還是不足啦可以再加強這個可以再加強對因為小黃公車使用率很高但是畢竟不是大街小巷大家坐在一起我們現在有比較用預約式的方式啦讓大家比較靈活一點來解決這個班次不足或者是路線不足的問題"},{"start":307.293,"end":326.69,"text":"部長那另外我想我們交通部投入了將近48億改善校園周邊的一個交通但是我們進捐基金會針對這個學校的抽樣也發現這個不及格的分數還是都不及格所以這個表示我們這個整個校園的這個交通環境有改善的空間那當然目前"},{"start":327.27,"end":344.068,"text":"我們大概這個三峽事故發生之後由警方來協助做一個學童的一個教管但這個畢竟不是長久之計因為警察還是有他的勤務在要職責在身上那所以未來怎麼樣針對校園安全部分交通部有沒有什麼樣的策略"},{"start":344.768,"end":372.844,"text":"報告委員這個部分其實內政部國土署是比較主要負責的單位那我所知道他們現在也已經有在研議相關的一些設置的條例做通學步道通學步道的部分有國土署他們有在努力在做這方面的規劃那也跟地方政府正在溝通包含他們未來的這個通學步道的這個補助的方案裡面一定會把一些項目硬體建設的項目列為重要的KPI這個部分他們正在做"},{"start":373.484,"end":398.685,"text":"好 謝謝部長那在這邊還是要跟部長拜託一下我們今年恆春建廠150週年如火如荼尤其我們今天已經進入到五月了還有剩下下半年的時間我想部長在交通委員會考察也看到了我們縣政府的努力那我們上個禮拜我們在小琉球縣政府也辦了一個留住你的音樂會登島有一萬兩千多人"},{"start":399.606,"end":411.635,"text":"所以我想我們希望未來 捧館處也好 觀光署也好跟縣政府我們緊密合作把這個建成150兆元的活動可以辦好好 我會請觀光署盡量協助好 謝謝 部長請回我最後一個問題請教一下蘇衛部長 謝謝"},{"start":422.626,"end":441.018,"text":"我們知道我們都有在補助這個我們的這個年輕朋友他們在研發一個遊戲不過我們有發現我們有補助的一個叫做百劍討邀傳奇壇這個案子他拿到了將近300萬的補助但是在台灣的售價卻遠遠高過於這個日本跟韓國最後讓台灣的這個"},{"start":444.44,"end":461.842,"text":"遊戲組不能接受為什麼有這樣一個狀況我們補助是他的創招創新部分後面行銷跟那個我們其實在這個階段並沒有進去輔導那這個不我請那個素產署以後怎麼去改善那我再問最後一個重要的問題"},{"start":463.203,"end":479.166,"text":"那更遺憾的就是這個遊戲的爭議這遊戲公司前幾天又突然發出一篇聲明他被認為把台灣跟香港形容成國家要向中國大陸道歉很壞啦這個事情更不能發生這個說明一下"},{"start":481.186,"end":497.642,"text":"跟委員報告就是這個補助的話當然是補助研發至於說他的定價他可能是當地的經濟狀況或者是說他跟當地的代理商討論這個我們的了解是這樣他的意識形態問題怎麼解決"},{"start":500.002,"end":526.19,"text":"如果說是一些他後來行銷的一些語言上面的狀況我們會再跟我們的遊戲業者這邊來說明來提醒他不要有相關的行為我想這是一個很嚴肅的一個課題我想蘇惠博也應該拿出一個態度我想這個關於行銷部分我們以後會加強關係因為這個東西確實在我們目前補助並沒有對他後面的行銷並沒有去有任何的措施這個看怎麼樣再開始"},{"start":526.701,"end":540.077,"text":"好 部長那最後今天解凍案如果通過之後對我們整體的業務會不會能夠繼續推動當然幫助很大啦因為我們被刪的蠻多的我們就盡量努力把它解凍我們會有很多工作需要委員們的支持好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1580,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時47分）謝謝主席。請陳部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長好。部長，本席上個禮拜才在委員會針對人本交通的政策提出質詢，尤其是現在人行環境一直在做改善。當然，我們也期待這樣的改善，因為這樣做對事故減少有正面的助益。不過很遺憾，前兩天三峽發生重大車禍，這也造成臺灣社會震驚，當然，部長在記者會有特別強調，現在事故的原因還在了解當中。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["徐委員富癸：部長昨天也特別強調，高齡者並不是造成傷亡人數最高的群體，不過本席調了一項數據要提醒一下部長，不管是機車或汽車，高齡者的傷亡人數和自撞人數都是逐年攀升，尤其是高齡汽車自撞的人數，兩年之內就增加一千多人。不管是機車或者汽車的駕駛，發生事故的人數，這兩年都增加將近九千多人，這個數據非常恐怖。針對這個部分，當然，本席知道部長昨天有緊急應變，就是把換照年齡從75歲降到70歲。部長，這部分未來有下修的可能性嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：因為高齡者的數字越來越多，不是傷亡的數字，我是說高齡者的人數越來越多，現在70歲以上……"],["徐委員富癸：我們是老人化的社會。"],["陳部長世凱：我們已經進入超高齡社會。從現在開始算起，我們70歲以上的駕駛人有182萬人，10年之後會增加到272萬人，接近280萬人，這部分的人口一直在增加。對交通部來說，最重要的課題是如何協助高齡者安全駕駛，這是我們整體改善措施的目的，也是我們的思考方向。","這些年就數字上來說，我們看到人數一直在增加，其實是因為母數增加，所以受傷人數和傷亡人數當然也會增加一些啦！不過就整體比例來說並沒有特別高，也沒有特別突出，但這一塊確實是臺灣社會未來必須面對的重要課題。關於年齡，我們會參考日本，把它從75歲下修到70歲就要進行換照的動作。"],["徐委員富癸：不過部長，本席個人是這樣認為，我們也不希望有些長者開車或騎車，因為還是會存在一些風險，但是就目前的交通狀況來說，六都的大眾運輸很方便，出門有捷運、公車可以搭，也有火車可以搭，但是部長也常常到屏東，我們偏鄉、離島的大眾運輸，目前的建置並沒有那麼完整。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["徐委員富癸：現在連計程車都不好叫，你叫他們怎麼辦？只好自己開車或騎車。所以當時本席一直強調要強化大眾運輸工具，甚至也請公路局研議能不能多開放一些計程車，讓民眾有車可以叫，如果沒有開放，長者只好自己冒險開車或騎車。這是一個大問題啦！這部分有沒有檢討的空間？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分確實是這樣。分兩個部分，一個部分是還有駕車需求或騎車需求的，我們怎麼協助他，讓他有更多的安全認知，讓他有更多的危險認知，並且導入更多的安全教育模式，協助他安全駕駛，這是我們要做的。另外一塊就是偏鄉的交通，這部分的公共運輸要怎麼加強。","當然，現在都市裡面的公共運輸比較完善，但鄉下確實會遇到這樣的問題。這部分我們當然要改善，所以幸福巴士和幸福小黃的建置就相當重要，讓我們的長者能夠很方便的取得公共運輸服務，這樣他自己開車、騎車的需求才會降低，這兩個部分要同時檢討、進行才會有效。"],["徐委員富癸：對。部長，本席知道你們有心要做，但是我們希望把KPI訂出來，尤其像屏東在資源有限的狀況之下，到底多久能夠把路線、期程規劃出來？希望一個月之內給我們一份完整的報告，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。是針對公共運輸的部分嗎？"],["徐委員富癸：對。怎麼建置這樣的大眾運輸，包含小黃。"],["陳部長世凱：幸福小黃及幸福巴士目前的涵蓋率已經到94%。"],["徐委員富癸：對。但是路線還是不足啦！看怎麼樣來調整……"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分可以再加強。"],["徐委員富癸：因為小黃公車的使用率很高，但畢竟不是大街小巷都有，或是每個地方都可以到。"],["陳部長世凱：我們現在是用預約的方式，讓大家可以比較靈活運用，解決班次不足或者路線不足的問題。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，交通部投入將近48億元改善校園周邊的交通，但是靖娟基金會針對學校抽樣，還是發現有不及格的分數，表示校園的交通環境還有改善的空間。當然，在三峽事故發生之後，現在是由警方協助學校交管，但這畢竟不是長久之計，因為警察有他們的勤務、職責在身。未來針對校園安全的部分，交通部有沒有什麼策略？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分內政部國土署是主要負責單位，就我所知，他們現在也在研議相關的設置條例。"],["徐委員富癸：做通學步道。"],["陳部長世凱：對，通學步道的部分也有，國土署有在努力做這方面的規劃，也在和地方政府溝通，包含未來的通學步道補助方案裡面，一定會把一些硬體建設項目列為重要的KPI，這個部分他們正在做。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝部長。還是要向部長拜託一下，今年是恆春建城150週年。"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個部分我們要努力協助。"],["徐委員富癸：現在準備的如火如荼啦！尤其今天已經進入五月了，還剩下下半年的時間，部長參加交通委員會考察時，也有看到我們縣政府的努力。"],["陳部長世凱：對，真的很努力。"],["徐委員富癸：上個禮拜在小琉球，縣政府也辦了一場「琉住你音樂會」，有一萬二千多人登島。我們希望未來不管是澎管處也好，或是觀光署也好，都能和縣政府緊密合作，把建城150週年的活動辦好。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我會請觀光署儘量協助。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝，部長請回。本席最後一個問題要請教一下數發部部長，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：徐委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我們知道數發部有在補助年輕朋友研發一款遊戲，不過我們發現，「百劍討妖傳綺譚」這個案子拿到將近300萬元補助，但是在臺灣的售價卻遠高於日本和韓國，這讓臺灣的遊戲族不能接受，為什麼有這樣的狀況？"],["黃部長彥男：我們補助的是它的創新部分，至於後面的行銷，這個階段我們並沒有進去輔導，這個部分我會請數產署研議以後怎麼改善。"],["徐委員富癸：好，本席再問最後一個重要的問題。更遺憾的是這個遊戲發生的爭議，這個遊戲公司前幾天突然發出一篇聲明，因為它把臺灣和香港形容成國家，所以要向中國大陸道歉。真的很誇張啦！這種事情可以發生嗎？"],["林署長俊秀：跟委員報告，這個補助案當然是補助研發，至於它的定價，可能是依照當地的經濟狀況，或者是他們和當地的代理商討論之後才定下的，這部分就我們的了解是這樣。"],["徐委員富癸：它的意識形態問題怎麼解決？"],["林署長俊秀：如果是後來行銷的一些語言發生狀況，我們會再向遊戲業者說明、提醒，請他們不要有相關的行為。"],["徐委員富癸：本席認為這是一個很嚴肅的課題，數發部應該拿出一個態度。"],["黃部長彥男：有關行銷的部分，我們以後會加強管理。我們目前的補助對後面的行銷並沒有任何措施，這個部分再看怎麼改善。"],["徐委員富癸：好。部長，最後，今天解凍案如果通過，你們整體的業務是否能夠繼續推動？"],["黃部長彥男：幫助當然很大！因為我們被刪減滿多的。"],["徐委員富癸：那我們就趕快努力解凍，解決這個問題。"],["黃部長彥男：我們有很多工作需要委員們支持，謝謝。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["主席（徐委員富癸代）：謝謝。請許智傑召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-12","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","黃健豪","何欣純","蔡其昌","徐富癸","邱若華","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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谢谢赵伟首先先帮我请周美莹副院长好 有请中研院周副院长好 委员好好 副院长这一次我们中研院总共有五个书面报告还有一个专案报告在等一下的解读案当中那院长稍早我知道他有过来那也有把这个口头报告做了一个说明那副院长您自己本人有把所有的报告内容都看过了吗"},{"start":33.038,"end":57.091,"text":"應該大致看過 大致一百多頁翻過一遍 全部看過所以內容你都知道當然背不下來 可是內容知道大概知道 好 我想是應該要比較詳細了解會比較好那去年我們看到在審查中研院預算的時候尤其是有很多位委員我們都有提出來就是中研院貴重儀器使用率低下的一個問題我相信副院長還記得"},{"start":58.172,"end":62.354,"text":"那中研院在解凍報告當中本席有看到111年跟112年的使用率低於20%以下的貴重儀器的佔比那比這個110年已經改善許多了我們看到數據就是111年是7.56%然後112年是7.75%相較於110年的14.41%有進步可是呢"},{"start":82.225,"end":89.708,"text":"我們這個報告內容其實卻沒有提到113年貴重儀器的使用狀況那第一個呢您是因為這個報告只有針對當時我們在審查預算的時候的問題提出來但是呢現狀卻沒有提是因為這樣的原因嗎那個報告現狀因為這個"},{"start":103.792,"end":121.638,"text":"就是說我們的報告看寫到哪一個部分因為這個地方是寫到哪一個部分就是同一件事情所以副院長我想因為可能你沒有想到說今天那個院長沒有辦法留下來但是你就是應該要做好準備那我們看到這也是本席辦公室跟你們鄉家詢問才知道113年我們又來到了11.1%所以也就是說"},{"start":127.74,"end":155.47,"text":"我們沒有去統計113年的數字可是看起來這113年我們這貴重儀器使用的狀況是更不好了耶所以呢 什麼原因不放是因為這個數字難看嘛那實際上我們在113年使用率低於20%以下的貴重儀器的佔比升高到這麼多那我看起來我們也每年都有編列這個貴重儀器的養護經費嘛所以報告沒有提那我想在這裡請教一下這個副院長我們要怎麼樣改善這個具體的應用措施是什麼"},{"start":156.25,"end":175.096,"text":"謝謝委員的關心因為我們書面報告是在去年委員會審查完以後我們就開始準備的所以那個時候那時候就準備好了為什麼到現在才來提說要解凍沒有現在解凍是因為後來不是整個公佈然後我們還要經過一些"},{"start":175.436,"end":199.637,"text":"對 你的意思是說早就準備好所以來不及更新新的狀況是這樣嗎這個東西我可以跟委員解釋為什麼11%如果說我們11%其實是9台我們回去有仔細看過這裡面所謂的使用率天低因為這幾台裡頭大概有4、5台都是在一年內剛剛新構置的所以有很多調整那個這樣子啦 副院長我覺得你應該要再給我們一個詳細的報告"},{"start":203.3,"end":222.17,"text":"妳要給我一個詳細的報告因為我沒有時間在這裡啊跟妳詢問說那有幾台那到底是多久妳不能在這裡就是說打一個大概今天其實談到預算每一筆錢都非常的重要每一筆預算經費我們都要詳實我們支持中研院的這個我們支持中研院的預算但是呢我覺得我們在報告當中也要詳細嘛這是彼此的權利義務啊對不對"},{"start":225.191,"end":244.788,"text":"所以呢會後我希望能不能三天之內把這一題你剛剛所說的到底為什麼又會增加那增加的原因是什麼你說有幾台那到底是幾台你說有可能一年那到底是一年還是八個月還是兩年我們要知道找出原因來嘛好那在這個問題我相信一直存在著所以中研院也有想過要去怎麼去解決"},{"start":245.529,"end":258.099,"text":"所以我們也定有了一個全院性核心設施使用及管理要點那我們也希望能夠開放各界學術界這個研究單位跟產業的人士可以來預約使用可是我看起來好像也是沒有增加所以副院長我希望把這一個我現在本期的這個問題你一併三天之內的報告要來給我就是說我們也想去解決這個問題"},{"start":270.748,"end":293.756,"text":"可是看起來好像也不太好解決那到底是沒有必要去買這麼多貴重的儀器還是說的確這樣的貴重的儀器它就是有專門的使用而且是必要性的所以我們應該要存在那這一些你看看你都不講結果都是我們在看的時候我們去設想是不是可能有這個問題有那個問題但是不可以這樣所以三天之內把這個問題釐清楚報告送上來有沒有問題沒有問題我們會把報告給委員"},{"start":296.417,"end":311.185,"text":"好 謝謝 那您請回 那那個主席我們請一下那個河岸會的陳明珍主委好 請陳主委對不起 再請我們那個國園院的那個高院長好不好好 有請國園院高院長"},{"start":313.29,"end":330.947,"text":"謝謝張偉我想主委我們看到其實國研院在之前他有表示說2030年國際上可能會有小型的核子反應器就是SMR的相轉所以我看到核研院也提出四年期的SMR大規模的研究計畫透過這個計畫希望能夠趕上國際的腳步"},{"start":335.071,"end":351.56,"text":"所以呢也提出這個計畫是要向國科會來爭取每年一億以上的這個經費來投入這個研究那我想先請教一下陳主委就是說你怎麼去看或者你怎麼樣去審核這個這個站在這個核安會立場會不會支持這個計畫然後來協助幫忙爭取這個預算核安會是支持的"},{"start":357.799,"end":373.288,"text":"是支持的,所以你認為這個計畫如何?你怎麼看待這樣的一個計畫?這個計畫值得探討,因為在理論上SMR有它的優勢,不管核安方面,在某些"},{"start":375.009,"end":391.259,"text":"設計它有比較低的核廢料的產生好 所以簡單的來講就是您認為這樣的計畫是很值得我們一來做很值得來支持的嘛 對不對好 那我想據本期了解國科會其實有持續補助各界對於SMR的一個研究"},{"start":392.139,"end":411.057,"text":"那近三年來我們看到補助核安會九件研究計畫總共是841萬2千那也補助了學界進行SMR相關的基礎研究計畫達到五件總共是896萬8千所以三年加起來總共補助了1738萬"},{"start":413.8,"end":437.755,"text":"但是我們看到國園院在這一年當中一年他就要去爭取過去三年總和的5.7倍所以主委剛剛是有說有支持當然我們也覺得說也是支持可是我們要來看那據主委您的了解國園院提出這樣是好的計畫可是我們的研究量有沒有辦法支持這個計畫的落實執行有辦法消化掉這麼多預算嗎可以的 這點請高院長來回答"},{"start":443.493,"end":459.928,"text":"我們提的就是明年開始希望能夠爭取國歌會能夠核准的四年的計畫大概4.8億這樣的一個計畫規模主要是我們希望能夠做一個很系統性的那個院長針對題目好不好我想我本席講得非常清楚"},{"start":460.629,"end":486.983,"text":"是告訴你說你現在一年要一億嘛對不對那可是我們看到其實國科會去不管是補助核安會補助其他的學術單位啊總共加起來三年也才補助一千七百多萬也就是說這些單位來申請他們能夠消化能夠去執行的就是一千多萬那你是什麼樣的量能或什麼樣的執行力你可以執行到一年一億你能不能重點講一下國營院現在有一千個員工其中有六百位可以參與"},{"start":488.396,"end":490.74,"text":"所以我們這個一年一月的計畫會有600位國務院的員工共同來參與這個計畫100位員工會來執行這個計畫所以我們對於執行這個計畫我們是非常有把握的是嗎"},{"start":504.35,"end":522.321,"text":"是 我們到時候會提出一個方案好 非常有把握嘛 人也夠 計畫也很好然後又有這個落實實行力 我覺得這樣很棒那國務院會近期有送計畫到國科會來申請預算主委 您知不知道國科會最後審核核准補助了多少經費現在還在審核之中還在審核之中 院長 多少"},{"start":531.925,"end":551.832,"text":"你指的是我們國歌會剛剛核定的一個718萬718萬左右這個是另外一個我們針對SMR的一個反正我們都是針對SMR嘛其中一個計畫對不對這個標的不一樣這是針對它的爐心的一個模擬那國園院現在總共提出了多少的計畫"},{"start":553.012,"end":559.038,"text":"按的這個預算申請今年度就是1543萬另外國科會這個是718萬總共大概2300萬一個700多萬一個1000多萬我們看起來剛剛我們都說支持這個計劃然後這個大家對你們也有信心可是國研院喊出一年要申請到1億然後也有100個人"},{"start":578.155,"end":597.001,"text":"可以來執行但是你確實有提出這種700多萬1000多萬的研究計畫而且經過核准現在也不過就是一個718萬下來所以你喊得這麼大聲說我們有1億我們有100個人執行力都沒有問題但本席看到的就是我們現在這一年1億我們好像也沒有提出來"},{"start":597.941,"end":624.768,"text":"那所以這是一個口號嗎還是只是一個展示一個決心卻沒有詳細可以執行的計畫內容今年核電的已經總共一個剛剛報告過原子能計畫一千四百一千五百四十三萬加這個大概兩千三百萬那明年開始就是我們會提個一億的這個一億的計畫就是更聚焦除了這原來研究的還要擴充到三種到四種新型的反應器所以它的範圍也擴大投入的人數"},{"start":625.888,"end":631.833,"text":"總之就是說 我們現在今年是這樣啦反正就是大概兩千多萬啦然後我們後面還有中長期的計畫啦所以呢 我覺得啦我們喊了漫天尬想這麼大的一個目標然後呢 大家也都支持你看起來也很有把握可是內容計畫現在是空的所以呢 我可不可以要求您啦那一樣啦 我不敢講再三天啦一個禮拜之內可不可以把這個相關的計畫你送上來讓我們看看你到底啊一年啦齁 這個一億"},{"start":653.65,"end":662.139,"text":"四年四億多你到底要做什麼那什麼期程要做什麼東西這可以做到嗎我們已經完成計畫書的兩百頁以上的送到我希望詳細的計畫就送上來包括剛剛我們所提到的為什麼現在的預算數跟我們的計畫差這麼多"},{"start":671.809,"end":685.877,"text":"那最後一分鐘我想就本席知道我們學界對於這個SMR的研究的歷史很久遠那包括清華大學從民國61年我們就開始開發車載型的小型反應爐那一直到不管是運轉後來實驗沒有再繼續到後來89年廚藝拆解我覺得其實"},{"start":690.74,"end":712.518,"text":"都會有點可惜因為花這麼多的時間人力下去所以呢基於國科會跟學界的相關研究基礎我想也建議啦也看國研院你是不是應該後續也要找學界或者是清華大學再重新來合作共同來推動我們SMR的研究的一個進度這樣也可以避免各方過去研究成果的浪費那個院長覺得呢"},{"start":713.419,"end":739.23,"text":"我先回答 這部分呢 國研院跟清華大學是有合作項目的他們是會密切合作 鄉協議請高院長再補充一下是 剛剛提到明年開始的四年計畫第一年一千萬我們最少會跟清華大學合作五百到一千萬這種合作項目培育人才 做研究 已經跟他們的原科院還有幾位教授都已經有初步做一個溝通"},{"start":741.727,"end":755.103,"text":"我想今天都是把这个重点来做一些提醒那我希望除了原有给我们的资料之外能够针对今天本席质询的地方不足的部分一个礼拜再把资讯送到我们办公室来好吗好的谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":857,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（11時42分）謝謝召委，首先先請周美吟副院長。"],["主席：有請中研院周副院長。"],["周副院長美吟：委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：副院長，這一次中研院總共有5個書面報告及1個專案報告在等一下的解凍案當中，我知道院長稍早有過來，也有口頭報告做了一個說明，副院長，您本人有把所有的報告內容都看過了嗎？"],["周副院長美吟：應該大致看過。"],["萬委員美玲：大致？"],["周副院長美吟：有一百多頁，我翻過一遍，全部看過。"],["萬委員美玲：所以內容你都知道？"],["周副院長美吟：當然背不下來，可是內容知道。"],["萬委員美玲：大概知道，好，我想應該要詳細瞭解會比較好啦！去年在審查中研院預算的時候，我們看到有很多位委員都有提出來，就是中研院貴重儀器使用率低下的問題，我相信副院長還記得。中研院在解凍的報告當中，本席有看到，111年跟112年使用率低於20%的貴重儀器占比，比110年已經改善許多了，我們看到的數據是，111年是7.56%，112年是7.75%，相較於110年的14.41%是有進步，可是這個報告內容卻沒有提到113年貴重儀器的使用狀況，第一個，這個報告只針對審查預算時的問題說明，但現狀卻沒有提到，是因為這樣的原因嗎？"],["周副院長美吟：我們的報告是看寫到哪一個部分，因為這個地方是說……"],["萬委員美玲：寫到哪一個部分？就是同一件事情啊！副院長，可能您沒有想到今天院長沒辦法留下來，但您本來就應該做好準備嘛！這也是本席辦公室向你們詳加詢問後才知道的，113年的占比又來到11.1%。你們沒有統計113年的數字，可是看起來，113年貴重儀器使用的狀況更不好了，所以是因為什麼原因不放？就是因為數字難看嘛！實際上就是113年使用率低於20%以下的貴重儀器，占比升高這麼多，但是每年都有編列貴重儀器的養護經費。因為報告中沒有提到，所以本席想請教一下副院長要怎麼改善？具體的應用措施是什麼？"],["周副院長美吟：謝謝委員的關心。因為我們的書面報告是在去年委員會審查完以後就開始準備，那個時候113年……"],["萬委員美玲：那時候就準備好了，為什麼現在才來提解凍？"],["周副院長美吟：現在提解凍是因為後來不是整個公布，而且我們還要經過一些詳細的查核。"],["萬委員美玲：所以你的意思是早就準備好了，只是來不及更新成最新的狀況，是這樣嗎？"],["周副院長美吟：這個部分我可以向委員解釋，為什麼是11%？這11%其實包含9台，我們回去之後有仔細看過，所謂的使用率偏低，是因為大概有四、五台都是一年內新購置的，還要做很多調整，所以沒有辦法正式服務，都是有原因的。"],["萬委員美玲：副院長，我覺得你們應該要再給我們一份詳細的報告。"],["周副院長美吟：對，我們會給委員一份詳細的報告。"],["萬委員美玲：你要給我一份詳細的報告，因為我沒有時間在這裡詢問有幾台？到底是多久？你不能在這裡答復一個大概的狀況。"],["周副院長美吟：我們會給委員一份詳細的報告。"],["萬委員美玲：今天談到預算，因為每一筆錢都非常重要，所以每一筆預算、經費都要翔實。我們支持中研院的預算，但是報告也要詳盡，這是彼此的權利、義務，對不對？所以會後，我希望三天之內把你剛剛說的，為什麼又增加？增加的原因是什麼？你說有幾台是新購置的，到底是幾台？你說有可能是一年內，到底是一年還是八個月，還是兩年？這些我們都要知道原因。","我相信這個問題一直存在，中研院也想過要怎麼解決，所以也訂定全院性核心設施使用及管理要點，我們也希望能夠開放，讓學術界、研究單位和產業界人士可以預約使用，可是就我看起來，好像也沒有增加啦！所以副院長，本席提出的這個問題，請你們一併在三天之內提供報告給我，雖然你們也想解決這個問題，可是看起來好像不太好解決。","到底是沒有必要買這麼多貴重的儀器還是這樣貴重的儀器是提供專業使用，而且有其必要性，所以應該存在？這些問題你們都沒有說明，都是我們在看報告的時候，自己設想是不是可能有這個問題、有那個問題，但是不可以這樣，三天之內把這個問題釐清清楚，把報告送上來，有沒有問題？"],["周副院長美吟：沒有問題，我們會送報告給委員。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝，您請回。"],["周副院長美吟：謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：主席，請一下核安會的陳明真主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["萬委員美玲：對不起，再請國原院高院長，好不好？"],["主席：請國原院高院長。"],["萬委員美玲：謝謝召委。主委，其實國原院之前有表示，2030年國際上可能會有小型的核子反應器商轉，就是SMR的商轉，所以國原院也提出四年期的SMR大規模研究計畫，希望透過這個計畫能夠趕上國際的腳步，並且向國科會爭取每年1億元以上的經費投入研究。本席想先請教一下陳主委，你們怎麼看或者怎麼審核？站在核安會的立場，會不會支持這個計畫或者協助幫忙爭取這筆預算？"],["陳主任委員明真：核安會是支持的。"],["萬委員美玲：所以你認為這個計畫如何？你怎麼看待這樣的計畫？"],["陳主任委員明真：這個計畫值得探討，因為在理論上，SMR有它的優勢，包括核安方面，在某些設計上，它有比較低的核廢料產生。"],["萬委員美玲：所以簡單來講，您認為這樣的計畫很值得我們來做，是很值得支持的，對不對？好。據本席了解，國科會其實有持續補助各界對於SMR的研究，近三年來補助核安會9件研究計畫，總共是841萬2,000元。也補助學界進行SMR相關的基礎研究計畫，有5件，總共是896萬8,000元，三年加起來總共補助1,738萬。","但是我們看到，國原院在這一年當中就要爭取過去三年總和的5.7倍，主委剛剛是說支持，當然我們也是支持的，可是據主委的了解，雖然國原院提出的這個計畫是好的計畫，可是我們的研究量能有沒有辦法支持這個計畫落實執行？有辦法消化這麼多預算嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：可以的，這點請高院長回答。"],["萬委員美玲：好。"],["高院長梓木：我們提出的，就是從明年開始希望能夠爭取國科會核准四年期計畫，大概是4.8億，之所以提出這樣的計畫規模，主要是我們希望能夠做一個系統性的整合，所以……"],["萬委員美玲：院長，請你針對題目回答，好不好？本席說得非常清楚，你們現在是一年要1億嘛！對不對？可是我們看到，其實國科會不管是補助核安會或補助其他學術單位，全部加起來，三年也才補助一千七百多萬。也就是說，這些單位來申請經費，他們能夠消化、執行的就是一千多萬。你們有什麼樣的量能或執行力可以一年執行1億？你能不能針對重點說明一下？"],["高院長梓木：國原院現在有1,000名員工，其中600位可以參與，所以參與……"],["萬委員美玲：所以這個一年1億元的計畫，會有600位國原院的員工共同參與？"],["高院長梓木：都有參與。其中核心的部分，有100位員工會執行這個計畫。"],["萬委員美玲：100位員工會執行這個計畫？"],["高院長梓木：是。"],["萬委員美玲：好。所以你們對於執行這個計畫非常有把握，是嗎？"],["高院長梓木：是，到時候我們會提出一個關於……"],["萬委員美玲：好，你們非常有把握嘛！人員夠，計畫也很好，又有落實執行的能力，本席覺得這樣很棒。國原會近期有送計畫到國科會申請預算，主委，您知不知道國科會最後核准補助多少經費？"],["陳主任委員明真：現在還在審核之中。"],["萬委員美玲：還在審核之中？院長，多少？"],["高院長梓木：委員，您指的是國科會剛剛核定的718萬這一筆經費嗎？"],["萬委員美玲：718萬左右？"],["高院長梓木：是，這是另外一個計畫，我們針對SMR的反應器……"],["萬委員美玲：反正都是針對SMR嘛！這是其中一個計畫，對不對？"],["高院長梓木：但是這個標的不一樣，這是針對它的爐心模擬，還有一個……"],["萬委員美玲：國原院現在總共提出多少計畫案？"],["高院長梓木：今年度就是1,543萬，是原子能的計畫。另外，國科會的部分是718萬，就是這兩個計畫，總共大概是2,300萬。"],["萬委員美玲：好，一個是七百多萬元，一個是一千多萬元。剛剛我們都說支持這個計畫嘛！大家對你們也有信心，可是國原院喊出一年要申請1億，也有100個人可以執行，但是你們卻只提出七百多萬、一千多萬的研究計畫，而且現在才核准718萬。所以你們喊得這麼大聲，說我們有1億的計畫，我們有100個人的執行力，但本席看到的是，這個一年1億的計畫，你們好像沒有提出來啊！所以這是一個口號嗎？或者只是展示決心，卻沒有詳細、可執行的計畫內容？"],["高院長梓木：今年已經有一個計畫核定，剛剛報告過，就是原子能計畫1,543萬，加這個計畫大概是2,300萬。明年開始，我們會提一個1億的計畫，這個計畫會更聚焦，除了原來研究的，還要擴充三種到四種新型的反應器，它的範圍會擴大，投入的人數也會增加。"],["萬委員美玲：好啦！總之今年就是這樣啦！大概二千多萬，後面還有中長期的計畫。但我覺得，你們喊得震天價響這麼大的目標，大家也都支持，你們看起來也很有把握，可是現在計畫內容卻是空的。所以我可不可以要求您，也是一樣，我不敢說三天啦！一個禮拜之內可不可以把相關計畫送來？讓我們看看這個一年1億、四年四億多的計畫，你們到底要做什麼？什麼期程要做到什麼？可以做到嗎？"],["高院長梓木：我們已經完成200頁以上的計畫書，並且送到國科會。"],["萬委員美玲：本席希望你們把詳細的計畫送來。"],["高院長梓木：好的。"],["萬委員美玲：包括剛剛我們提到的，為什麼現在的預算數和計畫差這麼多？最後1分鐘，本席知道學界對於SMR的研究歷史很久遠，包括清華大學從民國61年就開始開發車載型的小型反應爐，不管是首次臨界運轉，或是後來實驗沒有再繼續，或是89年除役拆解，我覺得有點可惜，因為我們花了這麼多時間、人力。","所以基於國科會和學界的相關研究基礎，本席也建議啦！當然也要看國原院的意思，後續你們是不是也應該要找學界或者清華大學重新合作，共同推動SMR研究的進度，這樣也可以避免各方過去的研究成果浪費，院長覺得呢？"],["陳主任委員明真：我先回答，這部分國原院和清華大學有合作項目，他們會密切合作，詳細內容請高院長再補充一下。"],["高院長梓木：是，剛剛提到明年開始的四年計畫，第一年1,000萬，我們最少會和清華大學進行500萬到1,000萬的合作項目，包括培育人才、做研究，已經和他們的原科院及幾位教授初步做過溝通。"],["萬委員美玲：好，今天都是針對重點做一些提醒，本席希望除了原本給我們的資料之外，針對今天本席質詢的地方，就是不足的部分，一個禮拜內把資資料料送到我們辦公室，好嗎？謝謝。"],["高院長梓木：好的，謝謝委員。"],["陳主任委員明真：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員，主委請回。"],["主席（陳委員秀寳代）：接下來請林宜瑾召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-12","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","謝龍介","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","吳沛憶","鍾佳濱","萬美玲","范雲","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","林沛祥"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案6案；二、處理\n114年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案9案；三、處理114年\n度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院單位預算解凍案1案","agenda_id":"1145101_00009"}}},{"id":"161721","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161721","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7dbc6cf073cd32597f456f20d851a8422b7db0f420b3783afbd274b52413cc438d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:35:14 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11:42:28","影片長度":"00:07:14","會議時間":"2025-05-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院主管預算(公務預算)解凍案6案。\n二、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案9案。\n三、處理114年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院單位預算解凍案1案。\n（5月21日及5月22日二天一次會））","type":"Clip","date":"2025-05-21","start_time":"2025-05-21T11:35:14+08:00","end_time":"2025-05-21T11:42:28+08:00","duration":434,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-12"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.915968750000001,"end":11.539718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.910968750000002,"end":15.775343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.24784375,"end":18.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.25159375,"end":19.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.16284375,"end":21.192218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.25971875,"end":22.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.04846875,"end":23.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.28471875,"end":27.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.65596875,"end":24.297218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.34721875,"end":30.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.18659375,"end":30.203468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.203468750000003,"end":30.473468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.473468750000002,"end":30.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.49034375,"end":30.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.69284375,"end":33.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.95846875,"end":32.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.83159375,"end":34.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.30409375,"end":34.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.26596875,"end":42.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.58971875,"end":44.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.656593750000006,"end":48.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.81659375,"end":55.431593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.360343750000006,"end":52.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.174093750000004,"end":64.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.110343750000006,"end":59.51534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.86471875000001,"end":71.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.99534375,"end":67.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.01971875000001,"end":72.66096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.76221875,"end":75.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.18784375,"end":82.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.46159375,"end":80.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.00534375000001,"end":83.37659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.93346875,"end":91.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.40909375000001,"end":93.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.63221875,"end":95.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.68284375,"end":95.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.03284375000001,"end":103.22159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.51659375000001,"end":106.83284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.76971875000001,"end":105.95534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.97221875000001,"end":105.98909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.28846875,"end":111.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.38096875000001,"end":109.73534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.25409375000001,"end":113.75159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.95846875000001,"end":114.02159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.02159375000001,"end":114.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.03846875,"end":114.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.05534375,"end":114.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.13971875,"end":114.22409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.49409375,"end":116.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.97471875000001,"end":119.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.04596875000001,"end":120.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.12596875000001,"end":123.21846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.52221875000001,"end":127.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.80846875,"end":135.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.07721875000001,"end":138.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.09346875,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.45596875,"end":142.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.16471875000002,"end":147.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.80534375000002,"end":149.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.08346875,"end":151.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.65284375000002,"end":152.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.39096875,"end":155.77034375000002},{"speaker":"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核安會 陳主委還有副主委跟主秘好 主秘剛剛那一位是組長嗎"},{"start":28.39,"end":44.594,"text":"回答核廢料問題的是一併上來 好 謝謝好 主委來 這個我想我請組長來代為說明有需要你們三位幫他做補充好嗎好來 請問組長核廢料怎麼處置高階核廢 低階核廢核廢料的處置 低階的部分是不是經過這樣子那目前我們有低階儲存廠嘛"},{"start":56.283,"end":81.175,"text":"有儲存廠有沒有最終處置廠還沒有 台北公司還沒找到那高階目前那方在水池冷卻的居多數嘛對小部分已經到了室內的乾儲室外的乾儲室外的乾儲好 那最終處置還沒有嘛對好 往下看那請問高階合肥最終處置廠目前有沒有選址條例高階經濟部有成立一個專案辦公室有沒有選址條例有沒有一個辦法來規範他們的選址方法"},{"start":83.086,"end":102.971,"text":"有經濟部今年準備立這個選址條例是條例是立法對那麼我們河岸會是不是認為這是必要的選址條例是不是必要的就是經濟部認為這樣子他們才有經濟部他們要立嘛你們認為在河岸的立場上是不是認為應該要有比較安全"},{"start":105.786,"end":108.689,"text":"現階段進城的河一、河二、河三,河一、河二剛剛已經講過了,水池裡面都滿了,用過來放滿了,幾乎滿了,只有河三還一點點。"},{"start":127.927,"end":138.551,"text":"中層的部分乾式儲存池目前只有一部分進去其他兩個廠都還沒有是不是最終處事廠都還沒有好往下看那請問第一階核料目前放在什麼地方核一廠裡面是不是也放了四萬多桶是"},{"start":143.206,"end":165.381,"text":"核二廠是不是也放了快六萬桶連蘭嶼很無辜的蘭嶼核一核二核三也放了快八萬桶超過八萬桶是不是這樣那我們屏東的核三廠裡面也放了一萬桶好那昨天有人有在野黨去強力推動了一個公投他們先前先管了核管法核管法他們讓本來"},{"start":168.062,"end":183.328,"text":"本來我們的核管法裡面沒有延譯這個項目他們現在說要用延譯但是目前我們所聽到的世界上有延譯的有潛力但沒有重啟的潛力你所知道的世界上核電廠有重啟的潛力嗎有沒有人知道"},{"start":187.435,"end":210.006,"text":"主委 副主委 貨幣組長有重啟的潛力嗎目前我知道有三座有申請但還沒有批准有申請沒有批准 是不是這樣子 沒有重啟的潛力好 那麼就算是有核管法有這樣的研議的可能那這些桶子還放在核電廠裡面 是不是這樣子是可以永遠放在核電廠裡面嗎"},{"start":211.703,"end":229.148,"text":"他有一定期限期限大概多久到了沒有還沒還沒多久我們核准當時是40年40年也就是說核電廠開始營運後這些核廢桶放在腸子裡面只能40年那快到期了吧還有多久到期"},{"start":230.731,"end":257.884,"text":"應該三場部應該還沒大概還有幾年確確數據我有可能三年五年不只不只十年因為他是比較後來比較後來的還有十年假設還有十年的時間我們要在十年之前完成最終處置場是不是這個程序是不是這樣子所以過去我們看到了從2006年開始到了2012年2013年所有到當時馬總統時期的江怡化院長也都在尋子到現在都還沒有確定往下看"},{"start":258.766,"end":281.952,"text":"好 非核教員是不是我們的永續目標 主委是的好 那這個當中在2019年訂定的裡面有什麼持續推動低放核廢的最終處置的選址作業是不是這樣 要盡速地把兩女的牽走完成了沒有還沒還沒嘛是不是要推動高放的最終處置設施的法制作業完成了沒有"},{"start":283.943,"end":304.772,"text":"還沒有嘛所以這樣的一個行政院的目標主委是不是包括核安會包括相關的行政院的機關都有責任有義務去盡速完成不管誰執政主委是不是這樣子是的下一頁好我就要結束了所以請核安會請你們就高放核廢的處置場的選址部分"},{"start":305.872,"end":327.625,"text":"我當然知道這是經濟部的權責但是呢 核安會基於民眾對於核安的了解請你們呢 來進行一個全台灣各縣市的民意調查了解民眾對於高階核放 放置在該縣市的支持度可以嗎做個民意調查 我不叫你做公民投票 做民意調查因為你們要協助民眾有這個認知"},{"start":329.704,"end":347.908,"text":"主委可以嗎報告委員那個經濟部其實他有一個社會溝通計畫我現在不是在質詢經濟部我在質詢核安會核安會主管核能包括民眾對核安的認知這個認知很重要請你們去調查民眾的認知主委可以嗎"},{"start":349.955,"end":373.016,"text":"我覺得民意調查是個非常專業的東西你們可以委託專業的公司去做啊我們河岸並沒有能力去做這方面的事情這不是河岸專業這不是河岸專業但是你們可以委託專業的公司去做但是河岸要包括什麼包括民眾的安全認知是不是這樣子這個你們委託一個專業公司去做調查就至少可以給台電參考吧"},{"start":373.877,"end":398.746,"text":"我覺得經濟部比較適合做這方面經濟部比較適合所以你們的答案就是經濟部那如果我請經濟部做你們也支持經濟部可以做決定是經濟部做決定如果經濟部做你們支持就對了這個有沒有有助於民眾的核安認知您覺得有沒有幫助報告委員有沒有幫助其實經濟部的這個溝通計畫裡面就有這樣的名字你覺得這樣的調查有沒有有助於民眾的安全認知"},{"start":402.188,"end":427.776,"text":"我現在不是問經濟部我現在問核安會核安會如果經濟部做這樣的調查你認為有沒有有助於民眾的安全認知要不要核安會要不要關心民眾對核安的關心的安全意識他可以更讓民眾更理解核廢料的本質主委同意了嗎這樣的一個調查是有助於民眾的安全認知的核安會支持嗎對雖然不是你們做好 謝謝"},{"start":430.319,"end":431.726,"text":"好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":767,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時35分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請核能安全委員會陳主委，剛剛是副主委跟主秘嗎？都請上來好了。"],["主席：核安會陳主委，還有副主委跟主秘。"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛剛那一位是組長嗎？回答核廢料問題的。"],["陳組長文泉：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一併上來，謝謝。","主委，我請組長來代為說明，有需要的話，你們3位幫他做補充，好嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問組長，核廢料怎麼處置？高階核廢、低階核廢。"],["陳組長文泉：核廢料的處置，低階的部分其實……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是經過簡報上這樣子？"],["陳組長文泉：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前我們有低階貯存場嘛？"],["陳組長文泉：有貯存場。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有最終處置場？還沒有？"],["陳組長文泉：台電公司還沒找到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：高階目前放在水池冷卻居多數嘛？"],["陳組長文泉：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：小部分已經到了室內的乾貯。"],["陳組長文泉：室外乾貯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：室外的乾貯。"],["陳組長文泉：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：室外的乾貯，那最終處置還沒有嘛？"],["陳組長文泉：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問高階核廢最終處置場目前有沒有選址條例？"],["陳組長文泉：經濟部有成立一個專案辦公室，他們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，有沒有選址條例？有沒有一個辦法來規範他們的選址方法？"],["陳組長文泉：有，經濟部今年準備立這個選址條例。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是條例，是立法？"],["陳組長文泉：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那麼核安會是不是認為這是必要的？選址條例是不是必要的？"],["陳組長文泉：經濟部認為這樣子他們才有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：經濟部他們要立嘛！你們在核安的立場上，是不是認為應該要有比較安全？主委，您認為呢？事務層次我就不方便問組長了，您認為是不是要有一個選址條例？"],["陳主任委員明真：是的，因為我們有一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：核安比較有保障。"],["陳主任委員明真：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。我們來看一下，現階段近程的部分，核一、核二、核三，核一、核二剛剛已經講過了，水池裡面都滿了嘛！用過的燃料棒幾乎都放滿了，只有核三還有一點點。中程的部分，乾式貯存設施，目前只有一部分進去，其他兩個廠都還沒有，是不是？最終處置場都還沒有。請問低階核廢料目前放在什麼地方？核一廠裡面是不是放了四萬多桶？"],["陳組長文泉：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：核二廠是不是也放了快6萬桶？"],["陳組長文泉：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：連蘭嶼，很無辜的蘭嶼，核一、核二、核三也放了超過8萬桶，是不是這樣？"],["陳組長文泉：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們屏東的核三廠裡面也放了1萬桶。"],["陳組長文泉：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，昨天在野黨強力推動了一個公投，他們先前先管了核管法，本來核管法裡面沒有延役這個項目，他們現在說要用延役，但是目前我們所聽到的，世界上有延役的前例，但沒有重啟的前例，您所知道的，世界上的核電廠有重啟的前例嗎？有沒有人知道？主委、副主委或主秘，有重啟的前例嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：目前我知道有3座申請，但還沒有批准。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有申請沒有批准，是不是這樣子？沒有重啟的前例。好，就算核管法有延役的可能，但這些桶子還放在核電廠裡面，是不是這樣子？"],["陳組長文泉：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以永遠放在核電廠裡面嗎？"],["陳組長文泉：它有一定期限。"],["鍾委員佳濱：期限大概多久？到了沒有？"],["陳組長文泉：還沒。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還沒，多久？"],["陳組長文泉：我們核准當時是40年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：40年，也就是說核電廠開始營運後，這些核廢桶放在廠址裡面只能40年，快到期了吧？還有多久到期？"],["陳組長文泉：三廠的部分應該還沒。"],["鍾委員佳濱：大概還有幾年？"],["陳組長文泉：確切數據我可能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：3年、5年？"],["陳組長文泉：不止。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不止，10年？"],["陳組長文泉：因為它是比較後來才……"],["鍾委員佳濱：它是比較後來的，假設還有10年的時間，我們要在10年之前完成最終處置場，是不是這個程序？是不是這樣子？所以過去我們看到的，從2006年開始，到了2012年、2013年，到馬總統時期的江宜樺院長也都在尋址，到現在都還沒有確定。好，非核家園是不是我們的永續目標？主委。"],["陳主任委員明真：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，在這個當中，在2019年訂定的目標，裡面有什麼？持續推動低放核廢最終處置的選址作業，是不是這樣？要儘速地把蘭嶼的遷走，完成了沒有？"],["陳組長文泉：還沒。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還沒嘛！是不是要推動高放的最終處置設施的法制作業？完成了沒有？"],["陳組長文泉：目前在處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還沒有嘛！所以行政院這樣的一個目標，主委，是不是包括核安會、包括行政院的機關，都有責任有義務儘速去完成？不管誰執政，主委，是不是這樣子？"],["陳主任委員明真：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我要結束了，請核安會就高放核廢處置場的選址部分，我當然知道這是經濟部的權責，但是核安會基於民眾對於核安的瞭解，請你們來進行一個全臺灣各縣市的民意調查，瞭解民眾對於高階核廢放置在該縣市的支持度，可以嗎？做個民意調查，我不是叫你做公民投票，做民意調查，因為你們要協助民眾有這個認知，主委，可以嗎？"],["陳組長文泉：報告委員，經濟部其實有一個社會溝通計畫，應該……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我現在不是在質詢經濟部，我在質詢核安會，核安會主管核能，包括民眾對核安的認知，這個認知很重要，請你們去調查民眾的認知，主委，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：我覺得民意調查是一個非常專業的東西。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們可以委託專業的公司去做啊！"],["陳主任委員明真：我們核安會並沒有能力做這方面的事情。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這不是核安專業，這不是核安專業，但是你們可以委託專業的公司去做，因為核安要包括什麼？包括民眾的安全認知，是不是這樣子？你們委託專業公司去做個調查，至少可以給台電參考嘛！"],["陳主任委員明真：我覺得經濟部比較適合做這方面的工作。"],["鍾委員佳濱：經濟部比較適合，所以你們的答案就是經濟部，如果我請經濟部做，你們也支持？"],["陳主任委員明真：經濟部可以做決定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，經濟部做決定，如果經濟部做的話，你們支持就對了。這個是不是有助於民眾的核安認知？您覺得有沒有幫助？有沒有幫助？"],["陳組長文泉：報告委員，其實經濟部這一個溝通計畫裡面就有這樣的民意調查了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，你覺得這樣的調查是不是有助於民眾的安全認知？"],["陳組長文泉：它的議題的設計上面就應該有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我現在不是問經濟部，我現在問核安會，如果經濟部做這樣的調查，你認為是不是有助於民眾的安全認知？核安會要不要關心民眾對核安的安全意識？"],["陳組長文泉：它可以讓民眾更理解到核廢料的本質。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，主委同意了嘛？這樣的一個調查是有助於民眾的安全認知的，核安會支持嘛？"],["陳主任委員明真：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：雖然不是你們做，好，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員，官員請回。","接下來請萬美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-12","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","謝龍介","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","吳沛憶","鍾佳濱","萬美玲","范雲","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","林沛祥"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案6案；二、處理\n114年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案9案；三、處理114年\n度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院單位預算解凍案1案","agenda_id":"1145101_00009"}}},{"id":"161719","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161719","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db885ab11cbd43290f56f20d851a8422b7db0f420b3783afbdb48ae4d373597ae25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"11:23:12 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就如同委員所提供的大概四年多"},{"start":252.183,"end":276.804,"text":"4年多在乾除廠衛星建完成的情況下河山廠的燃料池裡面燃料棒最多最多就是假設不管你要延續還是要再運轉最多最多就是只有4年份的燃料棒我們的燃料池可以儲存嘛對不對那目前在野黨修過的版本核管法的再運轉最長是可以到幾年"},{"start":279.256,"end":290.266,"text":"最長是20年 按照新的法規在甘氏儲存廠未興建完成的情況下請問我們河山廠的燃料池有辦法來儲存20年的燃料磅嗎所以沒辦法 那怎麼辦 必須要興建沒有錯 我們現在的甘氏儲存廠 河山廠我們預估最快最快什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":303.752,"end":324.799,"text":"跟委員說明台電公司河山廠的室內甘屬計畫在今年的2月他已經辦理採購文件的公開閱覽然後台電公司是希望在今年底能夠決標那預期是在121年6月完工啟用他願意規劃啟程"},{"start":326.129,"end":334.252,"text":"希望今年底可以絕標 代表什麼都還沒有招標出去啊河山廠的甘廚廠 連招標都還沒有完成我都不要問完工 連動工都沒有動工我們按照最理想的情況 假設今年招標完成 明年動工最快最快也要七年後 121年才有可能完工喔那如果按照現在藍白的提案"},{"start":350.319,"end":357.261,"text":"要來公投 今年 明年 河山廠就要來研議 叫無縫接軌來重啟讓你無縫接軌好了 最多再用幾年 再做四年還是得要停機啊 是不是這個樣子因為就是我們一再說的 核電的使用 你要考量是它的這個核廢料如何處置嘛 這個不是未來 是這是現在進行式"},{"start":374.079,"end":387.647,"text":"如果研議了現在無縫接軌直接使用了結果核三廠的燃料池的核廢料最多最多你只能再用四年沒地方放因為該是儲存廠七年以後最快還是七年喔有可能是八年九年以後才會蓋好嘛那請問四年到了"},{"start":392.403,"end":399.072,"text":"是不是就要停機如果不停機那這些使用過的燃料棒請問要放到哪裡燃料池滿了沒地方放了啊這個不是說核廢料放你家還是我家的問題我連乾式廚藥廠都沒有你沒有這個空間怎麼放"},{"start":407.563,"end":412.407,"text":"不是兒戲大家開玩笑討論吵架說不然放我家你家沒有燃料池怎麼放對不對這是很務實的問題所以因為接下來這公投案也提出了未來倘若要舉行公投核安會作為核電 核電廠安全的主管機關我們必須要負責任的向民眾說明倘若要因為他的這公投提案內的文字大家要注意喔他是說要儘速運轉"},{"start":435.307,"end":459.203,"text":"他不是說等你評估好了 乾式儲存廠蓋好了再來運轉 不是 他說要進速所以一定要告訴國人 按照我們河山廠既有的這個池燃料池儲存的狀況最多最多也只能再用四年還是得要停機等到 就算想要運轉也必須等到我們乾式儲存廠新建完成乾式儲存廠新建完成才有可能有繼續運轉的可能性"},{"start":465.667,"end":479.363,"text":"才有可能有他們提案要延長20年的可能性這一點這個資訊我認為一定要讓國人清楚的知道因為我個人認為第一個安全的考量我們之前提過基於安全的考量我認為何山長的言議是要三思的第二個即便提出這樣子的方案"},{"start":487.219,"end":503.523,"text":"我們要為了再運轉四年還是得要停機為了再運轉四年就要來舉辦這個全國的公投國人知道他們投下去的是河山廠再運轉四年不是運轉二十年這個是事實社會大眾要去思考因為當然都是有利有弊到底是利大於弊還是弊大於利"},{"start":513.154,"end":531.968,"text":"它使用的這個效期是否符合這樣子的成本效應呢一定要清楚的讓國人知道這一題在討論的是河山廠再繼續運轉四年不是二十年因為繼續運轉二十年它的前提的條件是等到我們七年以後"},{"start":532.628,"end":544.394,"text":"或者八年以後河山廠的乾式儲存廠興建完成才有它的可行性可開始評估好不好一定要把資訊清楚的向國人來說明好謝謝好謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":705,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（11時23分）謝謝主席，我請核安會。"],["主席：有請核安會陳主委。"],["吳委員沛憶：主委好。因為等會要跟你討論有關於核一、核二、核三廠核廢料處置的問題，因為我今天要問的比較不是大的政策，而是細節，所以如果有業務相關的同仁要回答就直接來回答就可以了。"],["陳主任委員明真：好。"],["吳委員沛憶：其實我要問的問題有很多，時間也有限，但是我剛剛聽到前面葉元之委員的質詢內容，我有一些疑問必須要請教，剛剛葉元之委員說，藍白提出來的核管法修法已經通過了，是要讓已經停止運轉的核電廠能夠再次運轉，那就包含了核一、核二、核三，但是葉元之委員說只要台電沒有提出要再運轉的申請，自然就沒有延役或繼續運轉的問題，我現在請問一下，有關於核三廠，目前台電有沒有向核安會提出要再運轉的申請？"],["陳主任委員明真：沒有。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有嘛！但是昨天在立法院通過了什麼？是由藍白來提出通過關於核三廠要繼續運轉的公投案，所以這個問題我覺得很奇怪，確實台電沒有提出申請，但是立法院這些政黨的立法委員可以來提出公投案，這就是國人現在關心的嘛！到底核三會不會繼續運轉？這個不僅是關乎於台電有沒有提出申請，事實上它可能成為政黨之間的提案，也有可能對整體社會造成影響，也就是核三廠在未來確實有可能繼續運轉，所以我們要關心的是什麼？就是核廢料到底要如何處理，這個不是意識形態理念之爭，我們要務實來看待，我請教一下，目前核一、核二、核三廠的燃料棒是怎麼處置？現行的情況。"],["陳組長文泉：報告委員，目前燃料棒……"],["吳委員沛憶：放在哪裡？"],["陳組長文泉：就在水池裡面，但是核一……"],["吳委員沛憶：放在燃料池內，是不是？"],["陳組長文泉：放在燃料池內，但是核一廠的部分因為它的乾貯設施已經開始運轉，所以會陸陸續續把燃料池內用過的燃料搬移到乾式貯存場。"],["吳委員沛憶：陸續在移動。"],["陳組長文泉：陸續在移。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以在沒有乾式貯存場的情況下，我們的現狀，使用過的燃料棒就必須要放在燃料池內，是不是這樣子？"],["陳組長文泉：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，臺灣目前在規劃的是，室外乾貯場有2座，室內乾貯場有3座，是不是？"],["陳組長文泉：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：核三廠有沒有規劃室外乾貯場？"],["陳組長文泉：核三廠有規劃要興建1座室內乾式貯存。"],["吳委員沛憶：核三廠的規劃是室內乾式貯存，室外沒有嘛？"],["陳組長文泉：對，室外沒有。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，現在核一、核二廠的燃料池內，燃料棒是不是幾乎要滿貯了？"],["陳組長文泉：幾乎。"],["吳委員沛憶：幾乎要滿貯，所以未來核一、核二廠的室外乾貯場你會先做好嘛？室外。"],["陳組長文泉：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：興建完成之後，就會把燃料棒從燃料池內移到乾式貯存場內，是嗎？"],["陳組長文泉：是的。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，現在核三廠的燃料池內，貯存燃料棒的情況如何？因為現在已經除役，已經停機了，所以目前沒有持續增加燃料棒的問題，但是按照你們原先預估的時程，目前燃料池的空間能夠貯存使用過的燃料棒最多是幾年？"],["高組長斌：就如同委員所提供的資料，大概四年多。"],["吳委員沛憶：四年多。"],["高組長斌：如果空間……"],["吳委員沛憶：在乾貯場未興建完成的情況下，核三廠燃料池裡面的燃料棒，不管你要延役還是要再運轉，我們的燃料池最多最多就是只有4年份的燃料棒可以貯存嘛！對不對？"],["高組長斌：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，目前在野黨修過的核管法版本，再運轉最長可以到幾年？"],["高組長斌：最長是20年。"],["吳委員沛憶：20年。"],["高組長斌：按照新的法規。"],["吳委員沛憶：在乾式貯存場未興建完成的情況下，請問核三廠的燃料池有辦法來貯存20年的燃料棒嗎？"],["高組長斌：沒辦法。"],["吳委員沛憶：那怎麼辦？"],["高組長斌：所以台電公司必須要興建室內的……"],["吳委員沛憶：必須要興建，沒有錯。現在核三廠的乾式貯存場，我們預估最快最快什麼時候可以完成？"],["陳組長文泉：跟委員說明，台電公司核三廠的室內乾貯計畫在今年2月已經辦理採購文件的公開閱覽，台電公司是希望在今年底能夠決標，預期在121年6月完工啟用，它的原規劃期程。"],["吳委員沛憶：希望今年底可以決標，代表什麼？都還沒有招標出去啊！"],["陳組長文泉：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：核三廠的乾貯場連招標都還沒有完成，我都不要問完工，連動工都沒有動工！我們按照最理想的情況，假設今年招標完成，明年動工，最快最快也要7年後，121年才有可能完工哦！如果按照現在藍白的提案要來公投，今年、明年核三廠就要延役，就要無縫接軌來重啟，讓你無縫接軌好了，最多再用幾年？再做4年還是得要停機啊！是不是這個樣子？因為就是我們一再說的，核電的使用，你要考量的是核廢料如何處置嘛！這個不是未來式，這是現在進行式，如果延役了，現在無縫接軌直接使用了，結果核三廠的燃料池最多最多你只能再用4年，核廢料沒地方放，因為乾式貯存場要7年以後，最快還要7年哦！有可能是8年、9年以後才會蓋好嘛！那請問4年到了是不是就要停機？如果不停機，這些使用過的燃料棒請問要放到哪裡？燃料池滿了，沒地方放了啊！這個不是核廢料放你家還是我家的問題，連乾式貯存場都沒有，你沒有這個空間怎麼放？不是兒戲，大家開玩笑，討論、吵架說不然放我家，你家沒有燃料池怎麼放？對不對？這是很務實的問題。","因為接下來這個公投案也提出了，未來倘若要舉行公投，核安會作為核電、核電廠安全的主管機關，我們必須要負責任地向民眾說明，因為這個公投提案內的文字大家要注意哦！它是說要儘速運轉，它不是說等你評估好了，乾式貯存場蓋好了再來運轉，不是，它說要儘速，所以一定要告訴國人，按照核三廠既有的燃料池貯存的狀況，最多最多也只能再用4年，還是得要停機，就算想要運轉也必須等到乾式貯存場興建完成，乾式貯存場興建完成才有繼續運轉的可能性，才有他們提案要延長20年的可能性，這個資訊我認為一定要讓國人清楚地知道。","我個人認為第一個，安全的考量，我們之前提過，基於安全的考量，我認為核三廠的延役是要三思的。第二個，即便提出這樣子的方案，我們為了再運轉4年還是得要停機，為了再運轉4年就要來舉辦全國公投，國人知道他們投下去的是核三廠再運轉4年，不是運轉20年，這個是事實，社會大眾要去思考，因為當然都是有利有弊，到底是利大於弊還是弊大於利？它使用的效期是否符合成本效益？一定要清楚地讓國人知道這一題在討論的是核三廠再繼續運轉4年，不是20年，因為繼續運轉20年的前提條件是等到7年以後或者8年以後，核三廠的乾式貯存場興建完成才有它的可行性可開始評估，好不好？一定要把資訊清楚地向國人來說明，好，謝謝，主委請回。","接下來我請中研院。"],["周副院長美吟：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：副院長好。我很關切的是，因為剛剛前面的委員有提到，我們教文會一直很支持中研院，所以沒有刪除預算，確實，委員會沒有刪除。但很遺憾，今年到院會的時候，翁曉玲委員還是以國民黨黨團的名義提出了中研院的預算刪減，在法學研究一共刪除了200萬，刪除的理由是他認為你們中研院的法學研究沒有顯著貢獻，而當時民眾黨的立委黃國昌委員，因為他過去也待過中研院法律所，所以我特別關心他的態度，他也是表態支持，就是說他也認為你們中研院法學研究是沒有顯著貢獻的。在我個人看來是有貢獻，究竟顯不顯著，他的主觀跟客觀的評量為何，這個我們不得而知，所以我希望中研院未來要再多加跟委員來說明，因為我相信絕對是有貢獻，你們要去凸顯它對社會的貢獻在哪邊，好不好？"],["周副院長美吟：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。最後，主席，可不可以給我一分半的時間？因為我很關心AI基本法，我自己也會有提案，那中研院在去年的時候有成立一個AI風險研究小組，你們提出了五點建議，我想非常地重要，其中你們認為臺灣需要及早來整備，而且要有立法的因應，也就是我們現在在研議的AI基本法。那麼今年中研院也提出了AI在人文社會科學領域的應用計畫，請問這個計畫目前已經有核定了嗎？預計怎麼樣來進行？是純粹研究還是有應用？"],["周副院長美吟：都有，已經核定了，今年1月開始，已經有20個計畫開始執行，如果委員想要知道詳細的狀況，我們可以再提供後面的資料，每一個計畫都是……"],["吳委員沛憶：好，所以今年已經有核定了。"],["周副院長美吟：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：我為什麼特別關心？我看其中有一個計畫是預計用AI來偵測和解析詐騙犯罪金流，它是由中研院社會學研究所提出，與刑事警察局、警大及清華大學合作，在我看來，我們對這個計畫未來的應用會非常地期待，因為刑事警察局也參與其中，而詐騙是臺灣現在很重大要解決的一個社會問題，所以我希望中研院未來關於AI相關的研究，如果可以和應用來結合的話，我想我們社會會非常期待，我們也非常地支持。"],["周副院長美吟：好，謝謝委員，我們會努力。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員，官員請回座。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員質詢，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-12","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","謝龍介","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","吳沛憶","鍾佳濱","萬美玲","范雲","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","林沛祥"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案6案；二、處理\n114年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案9案；三、處理114年\n度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院單位預算解凍案1案","agenda_id":"1145101_00009"}}},{"id":"161718","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161718","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod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所以嘛你們全部都是等到判刑確定才會交付懲戒啦你們的標準就是要判刑確定啦今天醫事司司長為什麼沒有來我們要講這些問題是說狼醫啊就是由群體依依相互相怨包庇出來的"},{"start":284.011,"end":291.578,"text":"你們都用最低的標準一定要踩到刑責確定了才願意交付懲戒你們就是這樣子啊我要跟你講這個案子我要講一個我們地方三窮的故事"},{"start":300.871,"end":326.338,"text":"你也掌握說因為妨礙性自主案件的醫生在司法判決以前都可以繼續執業啊所以有一個叫孔凡錦精神科醫師這個個案你有聽說過嗎孔凡錦後來已經被我們廢止醫師證書你不要這樣講在他在他被你們調照以前啊"},{"start":327.902,"end":348.284,"text":"發生了第一件是2021年的4月16號在診間強制性交然後呢三個月不到他再次犯下利用權勢性交而且被害者是16歲以上未滿18歲的少女"},{"start":350.101,"end":374.679,"text":"兩岸最後當然是判決有罪但是呢 他是幾年才判決有罪 你知道嗎2024年在2021到2024年之間他沒有裁定前恐反警仍然繼續執業而且還招人檢舉他的恐反警的這個診所名稱改名為同安診所"},{"start":375.285,"end":396.898,"text":"而且用他哥哥的名字孔繁中去掛名但是實際看整的還是孔繁井所以呢這代表什麼代表說在司法判決以前沒有定業以前你奈何不了他可是事實上不是喔法律法律有工具耶可以讓你們在判決以前"},{"start":401.221,"end":421.52,"text":"就可以去給他移送懲戒老闆委員齁孔凡請醫師這個案子事實上在112年8月2號精神科醫學會就通知新北市衛生局來啟動這個醫師懲戒所以後來是在112年8月18日我覺得你不要把責任說是地方政府的問題啦中央跟地方都一樣因為上情下效你們就是這個原則"},{"start":423.001,"end":445.282,"text":"你從中央你今天才可以跟大家跟各地方衛生局宣示不用刑事判決就可以移送懲戒這個公文你發的出去嗎你可以發出去嗎我們可以再一次提醒大家依照醫師法第五條好那我就等著看你這張公文因為社會沒有辦法接受司法判決才可以移送懲戒"},{"start":446.303,"end":463.613,"text":"更不要講法律明明有規定而主管機關從中央到地方都刻意要選擇判刑確定才要移送成政界那我現在要跟你講喔政大法學院劉鴻恩副教授他有講過委員他曲解我的說法"},{"start":464.273,"end":487.094,"text":"國外 我都還沒講他講什麼 你不要這麼緊張 認為劉鴻恩曲解你劉鴻恩有沒有曲解你我不知道 但我現在講劉鴻恩現在我想是他的制度面他怎麼說國外醫生利用診療機會性侵病患 只要是被檢舉甚至是還沒有被判刑但依照主管機關或公會調查的結果"},{"start":487.754,"end":500.121,"text":"就已經先被停業處分 調扣執照 吊銷執照的案例不生沒舉而且 重點就在這裡醫師的資料 只要你涉案了 都公開的"},{"start":501.124,"end":519.525,"text":"美國紐澤西州一名婦產科醫生因為診療時不當觸摸病患還沒有判刑就先調過執照同樣的在紐澤西州2025年2月兩個醫師因為在診療時對病人有性方面的不正當行為沒有判刑就被吊銷執照"},{"start":520.726,"end":537.95,"text":"加拿大安大略省的一個醫師在診療時對病人有性方面的不正當行為所以在沒有判刑的狀況就被調供執照美國的阿拉巴馬州對於病人診療時有性方面的不當行為沒有判刑就被調校執照劉鴻恩他這裡沒有講他攻擊你我現在講他講"},{"start":544.051,"end":560.204,"text":"他說 證據調查有很多種 刑事責任的刑法責任 當然需要刑事司法的調查但是不是只有刑事責任一種耶 這個行為涉及到行政責任 倫理責任 懲戒責任"},{"start":563.311,"end":578.317,"text":"不一定要透過司法調查捏我們的法律裡面像民事責任民事責任需不需要司法調查完成才能夠進行民事責任的審理就你所知道的需要嗎"},{"start":578.957,"end":597.921,"text":"所以其實也跟我們報告就是說像相關的這幾個案子其實包含我們之前我們在大院也通過的性平三法以醫師來說他所在職業過程中所發生的這些不當的行為不論是在性別工作平等法性別平等教育法或者是性騷擾防治法都移送懲戒了嗎 都移送懲戒了嗎對 但是你們都給他移送懲戒了嗎沒有 沒有"},{"start":604.042,"end":608.684,"text":"你們剛才講的數據你自己講的一清二楚都是刑事判決才移送懲戒這五年裡面你講不出來一涉案沒有經過刑事判決行政責任倫理責任還有我們剛剛講的懲戒責任都沒有被究責到都沒有移送到懲戒會去懲戒"},{"start":627.774,"end":648.661,"text":"所以我就跟你講台灣光是司法制度台灣的司法制度的民事訴訟都不需要等到刑事判決才可以才需要負起民事責任沒有這個東西是一樣的道理如果你們是用一個比較高的標準他是等於利用職務利用執行業務去對人家性侵性騷耶這不是道德倫理了這是法律上都踩到界限了是"},{"start":655.27,"end":670.698,"text":"對不對 行政責任 倫理責任 懲戒責任 刑法責任各自有不同的要件和認定標準所以呢各自的調查程序和懲戒的標準程序都不會一樣啊"},{"start":672.225,"end":693.795,"text":"所以你們現在看到的實務面從中央到地方就是要求判決後才有移送懲戒你們的不成文規定就是這樣子啊你剛才五年內的統計你沒有辦法說出一件涉案就交一副懲戒會沒有你剛才的統計資料就是沒有你在這裡嘴巴說你沒有這麼認為你們實務面都是這樣子做"},{"start":700.838,"end":707.522,"text":"而你還在這裡嘴巴硬不願意承認當你承認你們有這個問題當你們承認有這個問題你承認然後你說你們未來會改進那麼我們是可以接受的你現在是我們沒有我們通通都沒有你現在就是說我通通都沒有"},{"start":720.837,"end":735.552,"text":"內部處理太過保守而且其實也在藉這個機會因為接下來在7月份台北市衛生局要針對三位醫師的狀況來開懲戒我們也藉這個機會希望大家在懲戒的過程能夠有一個比較有效的作用我再問你一個問題 狼醫職業婦產科有嗎"},{"start":736.693,"end":756.797,"text":"郎醫只有婦產科有嗎?精神科、兒科的郎醫就算派行以後還仍然繼續職業你們還沒收了民眾的執行權今天要討論的是到婦產科醫師這個看診大家都提心吊膽但是你知道有個兒科醫師2022年記性男醫師"},{"start":761.048,"end":789.923,"text":"是一個女童的主治醫師 兒科的一時誤想利用而女童求診時為女童與陪同母親實施心臟超音波檢查疑似多次手持超音波探頭 以手抓住碰觸乳房乳頭的方式為猥褻行為涉及猥褻行為法院審理也判刑了七個月緩刑兩年 但判刑七個月緩刑兩年 但"},{"start":790.902,"end":818.208,"text":"沒有吊銷醫生執照沒有這個醫師懲戒他們後來做成的決議是警告我們也認為事實上希望大家能夠針對這樣尤其是未成年個案事實上醫界應該要有更強的自律才對我們要的是知情權我以後要去看醫生我都要先到衛福部的官網上去看這個醫生有沒有交付懲戒的紀錄這個醫生有沒有這個涉及這個刑事案件"},{"start":819.468,"end":843.757,"text":"而且更何況兒少法規定49條是97條猥褻兒童得公佈加害人性命我們更嚴謹的狼屍兒虐幼保員有定期公開的機制甚至涉及到性別不當對待的事件會處以終身或幾年內不可任用也沒有辦法進到教保機關繼續服務可是你們對狼醫 狼醫對兒童猥褻"},{"start":848.118,"end":855.68,"text":"你們是輕輕放下而且還能夠繼續持續的看診服務而且查不到 查詢不到我們性侵案零容忍你們這個平台雖然是在野黨委員提的但也是衛黃委員會通過的你們承諾人家要建置一個平台你們沒有完成就算了其實還繼續在包庇這種狼醫你們就是狼醫包庇的當兇"},{"start":877.694,"end":888.602,"text":"就不要講說要法律授權 有法律授權啊 而設法有沒有法律授權 有沒有請問你們公佈在哪裡 而設法規定要加害者的名字都要公佈你們有公佈嗎 沒有 因為他是醫生 所以不用公佈如果他是教保員或是狼屍 就要公佈了 但醫生輕輕放下"},{"start":903.905,"end":927.544,"text":"不是嗎 你們的醫事查詢系統也可以優化你們醫事查詢系統 因為我們要去看婦產科醫師要內診 有時候要麻醉 會昏迷我不知道醫生會對我做什麼 我也很害怕我可不可以上網去查詢一下這個醫生有沒有前科有沒有移動懲戒 有沒有涉及連兒少的也都可以看得到啊"},{"start":928.979,"end":957.894,"text":"所以你可以在這個既有的醫事查詢系統去優化可是你看你們的醫事查詢系統你們的醫事查詢系統大概只能證明說他是一個有合格執照的醫師吧網站上有姓名人員類別職業的縣市如果同一個縣市兩個同名同姓職登科別類別都一樣我要怎麼辨認哪一個是狼醫"},{"start":959.554,"end":963.239,"text":"哪一個是我要查詢的那個我在乎的醫師好"},{"start":964.653,"end":990.884,"text":"等一下慢慢來沒關係 那我又就用這個查詢網站為基礎如果 我再問你第二個問題同名同姓 同科別 都一樣我怎麼確認哪個是哪個 第一個第二個 這個網站裡面如果疑似人員犯案以後甚至遭到判刑以後 沒有被你們吊銷執照改名了 改名了 我怎麼查詢他啊"},{"start":992.165,"end":1006.935,"text":"改了名就海闊天空了 人生重來了他改名了就不會對病患繼續上下起手嗎我不知道我們的知情權你們給我們的知情權是要 是怎麼樣是這種 不好的查詢系統而且重點也不在這裡喔"},{"start":1016.431,"end":1032.666,"text":"重點還有一個喔改名以外還有一個喔你們自己在上面的說明一是查詢系統的類別上就是一個笑話民眾在網頁上可以得到完整的資訊嗎事實上是不是"},{"start":1034.042,"end":1059.654,"text":"你們網頁最底下的說明民眾查詢到的都是醫事人員同意放置的項目這網站不是完整的資訊你看到的資訊都是因為這些醫事人員同意給你看 你才看得到醫事人員不想給你看 你就看不到所以你們有提醒大家如果你要去查查看這是不是狼醫 有沒有記錄"},{"start":1061.135,"end":1089.796,"text":"如果你在網頁上查詢不到不代表這個人不是醫事人員所以這是不是很荒謬?次長 有沒有很荒謬?護符部本醫事人員查詢系統不管是否查詢得到都在有或沒有之間所以連他有沒有執照 無照醫師滿街跑也查詢不到啊無照醫師不會在這上面因為這上面必須要有執照 然後有直登你怎麼那麼好笑有照的醫師不在這上面才好笑"},{"start":1092.659,"end":1114.991,"text":"吳趙醫師當然不在這上面但你的好笑荒謬是有趙醫師也可以不在上面你有趙醫師不在上面所以你查詢的這個人到底是有趙吳趙不知道那我請問你你自己的名字為什麼不在上面因為我現在挺夜陳時中為什麼要在上面因為他現在可以 羅益君為什麼要在上面"},{"start":1115.951,"end":1141.223,"text":"我現在在溫福部所以我停業 蘇經選為什麼在上面陳金輝為什麼在上面 因為你不想被人家查詢報告委員我不是 是因為我現在是停業 我沒有職業登記所以我現在不能在上面那陳時中有嗎 這我不清楚他有職業登記喔 那有沒有違規違法羅怡君也有欸 蘇經選有 陳金輝也有你們都還在看著有職業登記委員的話是可以的"},{"start":1144.4,"end":1170.487,"text":"所以我現在要跟你講說啊因為各種因素沒職業的所以我講說各種因素啊你今天司法卡案在上面你也是查不到所以你可以利用這種不想公開來掩飾你無法職業的問題我要去查詢某某某他是不是涉案然後你上面跟人家說明說查不到不代表他沒有醫師執照"},{"start":1172.574,"end":1193.765,"text":"因為他可以公開也可以不公開你這個制度沒問題嗎改了名以後的狼醫怎麼辦這制度沒問題嗎你給我們就只有這樣子就只有這個簡單的資料這樣子不用精進嗎如果對兒受犯以性侵害需要公開你上面也查詢不到"},{"start":1194.998,"end":1217.394,"text":"這沒有問題嗎?你自己說這樣都沒有問題嗎?不用改進嗎?不用進進嗎?一定要改進這一次報告委員我還是一再強調醫事人員尤其是醫師在持續的繼續教育過程中都有相關的性別平等或者是相關性騷擾防治等等的學分那再來醫事機構本身基於性別工作平等法跟性騷擾防治法也有針對我現在不再講醫事機構跟醫療人員我現在講的是衛福部的這個網頁這個網站這個平台"},{"start":1224.199,"end":1241.501,"text":"是衛福部的責任啊所以跟我們報告就是說因為之前一月份的時候部長也有承諾我們要有一些公開的這個網頁資訊所以這個部分部長日夜晚回來之後我會跟他盡速把這個部分做起來你現在知道有公開了一月到現在了已經多久了"},{"start":1242.851,"end":1262.147,"text":"醫改團體說你們這個網頁查詢門檻很高 民眾難自保只可以查到醫事人員的職業縣市 無法得知職業資格是否還有效職業資格有效才會找到面因為他可以不登啊他不登的話民眾上去看找不到 民眾要懷疑他那就是意思他們沒有 你上面告訴人家是"},{"start":1264.309,"end":1277.073,"text":"也就是說他你畫紅線的再看一遍職業中的醫事人員同意放置的才給予公開如果沒有查到不代表此人不為醫事人員你這句話不就笑話你還能夠講得出來查詢不到的理論上查詢不到應該全部都是無照的可是你你的制度讓他們可以閃躲躲在有照的但是不想公開的人的後面"},{"start":1291.448,"end":1312.802,"text":"就是承認你們不足 承認有錯誤承認你們做得不好 就是這樣子而已所以呢沒有辦法得知資格 懲處和判決紀錄懲戒紀錄四散各處 查詢不易 搜尋不到或是匿名 啊改名的咧 改名的咧民眾就醫治保 連改名就查不到 那改名的怎麼處理"},{"start":1314.775,"end":1329.615,"text":"所以其實他還是要跟著他的職登跟職業職照的部分來...就改名啦改名啦他改了名字可是他的職登他還在啊所以到時候如果...我怎麼會知道那個職登號碼跟前一個是幾號一樣的我們在上面的網站...改名了"},{"start":1331.624,"end":1352.247,"text":"需要依法公開的資訊不需要修法的剛剛講的依須懲戒辦法第22條法院組織法第83條針對判決和懲戒確定的名單就屬於政府應公開的資料我剛剛講兒少裡面的也必要公開都不會違反任何法律都有法律授權"},{"start":1353.268,"end":1377.266,"text":"那可不可以放進去 提到委員指導這些政府要求公開的資訊我們把它整在一起 讓衛福部整合在這個平台可以嗎我們可以整在這個平台 或讓首頁能夠看得到事權統一如果這塊這麼簡單這麼容易 你們應作為而不作為 就是行政怠惰而且距離部長1月要承諾的 真的是很久 搞很久了"},{"start":1378.067,"end":1404.556,"text":"英美各個國家都有建制公開平台除了醫師的資格背景職業的狀態還可以就近可進行的查詢有無紀律處分紀錄強化民眾自主的把關透過平台的建制也能夠強化醫界的自律更重要的是減低民眾對特定科別尤其是涉及隱私的科別不信任感和擔憂這個是"},{"start":1407.641,"end":1418.366,"text":"這個是很多好處的啊不是公開 大多數醫師都不會違規 不會違法大多數的醫師也樂於看到淘汰這些劣幣但是護短的體制是惡行的溫床啊護短的體制是惡行的溫床"},{"start":1428.511,"end":1445.785,"text":"所以性暴力零容忍政府跟醫界都不應該視而不見輕放拖延建制或優化這個平台的前提我們知道不影響醫師的清白但也需要在病人安全和隱私維護之間做權衡"},{"start":1447.967,"end":1466.393,"text":"所以要 這細節就是你要納入多細微你要邀請相關的利害團體大家一起來討論所以我們要一個知情權民眾就要一個知情權才能夠保障醫病雙方的權利給我們一個安心就醫的環境啊好 謝謝委員指導"},{"start":1467.566,"end":1484.693,"text":"會不會多久可以把這個平台優化好剛剛有委員要求我們在一個月內去把相關公開資訊的部分做規劃他剛剛沒有討論得很清楚 我現在講得很清楚懲戒的 移送懲戒的相關的法院判決的還有剛剛講的不是判刑確定你們過去五年光是違反議事倫理的沒有一件送懲戒"},{"start":1493.778,"end":1505.371,"text":"這個標準你要公文下去告訴俗家從中央到地方告訴這個國家所有的執法人員不是只有判刑確定好啦 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":762,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時26分）謝謝主席，請林次長。"],["林次長靜儀：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：次長，有關臺大住院醫師的性侵這個個案，事實上在一發生的時候，不管是醫院、地方、北市衛生局，或者是我們中央單位，新聞剛出來的時候都是用醫事法第二十五條第二款，要判刑確定才會送懲戒，大家都覺得這種法律概念很荒謬無比，醫師利用醫療職務機會而犯罪，同時已經也違背了醫療倫理，如果有高度社會矚目，立法院排案要報告了，次長就改口了，就是說不用第二款，我們有……"],["林次長靜儀：沒有啦，我們都說那五款都可以啦！"],["林委員淑芬：我沒有叫你回答。"],["林次長靜儀：抱歉。"],["林委員淑芬：你們當時出來的新聞稿大家都看得出來，當時所有的第一時間，地方衛生局、中央衛福部、醫院及雇主通通都是用要判刑確定才會移送懲戒，一開始都是這樣子。所以你今天當然是改口了，因為今天要到立法院來報告，怎麼可以不改口，我不是說這樣的不行，而是執行業務違背醫學倫理，我現在要問你的是：第一個，有沒有統計這5年醫師因為妨害性自主案件，而依據醫師法第二十五條第二款，利用業務機會的犯罪行為經判刑確定，而移送懲戒的案例數有多少？第二個，在第四款，這5年內因為執行業務違背醫學倫理，而移付懲戒的案例數又有多少？這5年內，你可以告訴我這些數字嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，這5年內的話，我們在110年，有一位醫師是依照醫師法第二十五條第二款規定，移付懲戒並廢止他的醫師證書，另外一個案子……"],["林委員淑芬：我在問你數量就好了。"],["林次長靜儀：我手頭上的數字……"],["林委員淑芬：你不用跟我一一的報告，問你這五年內，因為妨害性自主，然後判刑確定被移送懲戒，或者是用第四款更寬鬆的違背醫學倫理而交付懲戒的案件數有多少？你就告訴我就好了。"],["林次長靜儀：我手上資料性平的案子有5案。"],["林委員淑芬：我是要第二款、第四款分開的，你為什麼要這樣子回答？第二款是判刑確定的，移送懲戒有幾個？第四款，因為違背醫學倫理而交付懲戒的個案有幾個？"],["林次長靜儀：我們這邊這幾案包含投訴性騷擾案，然後懲戒，其中有3個個案是判決之後以第二款來移送懲戒。"],["林委員淑芬：你講的是多久的時間以內？3年？"],["林次長靜儀：對，最近3年內。"],["林委員淑芬：3年內？"],["林次長靜儀：對。"],["林委員淑芬：有判刑確定交付懲戒的有3個？"],["林次長靜儀：判刑確定的案子在我現在手上的資料裡面，110年有一位判刑確定的案子；然後在110年的那個，就是現在7月份臺北市政府要召開懲戒會；另外一個是111年的，這個案子已經提出……"],["林委員淑芬：為什麼這種問題要回答的這樣2266呢？因為違背醫學倫理而交付的有幾件？"],["林次長靜儀：違背醫學倫理的案子，我們現在手上沒有這樣的資料。"],["林委員淑芬：對嘛。所以嘛，你們全部都是等到判刑確定才會交付懲戒啦！你們的標準就是要判刑確定，今天醫事司司長為什麼沒有來？我們要講這些問題是說，狼醫就是由群體醫醫相護、鄉愿包庇出來的，你們都用最低的標準，一定要踩到刑責確定了，才願意交付懲戒，你們就是這樣子。我要跟你講一個案子，我要講一個我們地方三重的故事，因為妨礙性自主案件的醫生在司法判決以前都可以繼續執業，所以有一個叫孔繁錦的精神科醫師，這個個案你有聽說過嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：有，我知道，他後來已經被我們廢止醫師證書。"],["林委員淑芬：你不要這樣講，在他被你們吊照以前發生了一些案件：第一件是在2021年4月16日，他在診間強制性交，然後3個月不到，他再次犯下利用權勢性交，而且被害者是16歲以上未滿18歲的少女，這兩案最後當然是判決有罪，但是他是幾年才判決有罪，你知道嗎？2024年，在2021年到2024年之間，在沒有裁定前，孔繁錦仍然繼續執業，而且還遭人檢舉他的孔繁錦診所改名為同安診所，而且用他哥哥的名字孔繁鐘去掛名，但是實際看診的還是孔繁錦，所以這代表什麼？代表說在司法判決以前、沒有定讞以前，你奈何不了他，可是事實上不是喔，法律有工具，可以讓你們在判決以前，就可以把他移送懲戒。"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，孔繁錦醫師這個案子事實上在112年8月2日，精神科醫學會就通知新北市衛生局來啟動醫師懲戒，所以後來是在112年8月18日廢止。"],["林委員淑芬：你不要把責任說是地方政府的問題，中央跟地方都一樣，因為上行下效，你們就是這個原則，你今天從中央跟大家、跟各地方衛生局宣示不用刑事判決就可以移送懲戒，這個公文你發得出去嗎？你可以發出去嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：我們可以再一次提醒大家，依照醫師法第五條……"],["林委員淑芬：好，那我就等著看你這張公文，因為社會沒有辦法接受，司法判決才可以移送懲戒，更不要講法律明明有規定，而主管機關從中央到地方都刻意要選擇判刑確定才要移送懲戒，所以我現在要跟你講，政大法學院劉宏恩副教授有講過……"],["林次長靜儀：他曲解我的說法。"],["林委員淑芬：我都還沒講他講什麼，你不要這麼緊張，認為劉宏恩曲解你。"],["林次長靜儀：他是真的前一段時間曲解我的說法。"],["林委員淑芬：劉宏恩有沒有曲解你的說法我不知道，但我現在要講的是劉宏恩對制度面怎麼說。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["林委員淑芬：國外醫生利用診療機會性侵病患，只要是被檢舉，甚至是還沒有被判刑，但依照主管機關或公會調查的結果，就已經先被停業處分、吊扣執照、吊銷執照的案例不勝枚舉，而且重點就在這裡，醫師的資料只要涉案了都公開，美國紐澤西州一名婦產科醫生，因為診療時不當觸摸病患，還沒有判刑，就先吊扣執照；同樣的，在紐澤西州，2025年2月，兩個醫師因為在診療時對病人有性方面的不正當行為，沒有判刑，就被吊銷執照；加拿大安大略省的一個醫師，在診療時對病人有性方面的不正當行為，所以在沒有判刑的狀況就被吊扣執照；美國的阿拉巴馬州，若醫師對於病人診療時有性方面的不當行為，沒有判刑，就被吊銷執照。劉宏恩在這裡沒有攻擊你，我現在要講的是，他說證據調查有很多種，刑事責任的刑法責任，當然需要刑事司法的調查，但是不是只有刑事責任一種，這個行為涉及到行政責任、倫理責任、懲戒責任，不一定要透過司法調查，我們的法律裡面像民事責任，民事責任需不需要司法調查完成才能進行民事責任的審理？你就你所知道的回答我，需要嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：所以也跟委員報告，像相關的這幾個案子，包含之前在大院也通過了性平三法，以醫師來說，他在執業過程中所發生的這些不當行為，不論是在性別工作平等法、性別平等教育法或性騷擾防治法……"],["林委員淑芬：都移送懲戒了嗎？都已經送懲戒了嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：我們也提醒大家……"],["林委員淑芬：但是你們都給他移送懲戒了嗎？沒有，沒有！"],["林次長靜儀：所以我們會希望能夠再跟公會再一次……"],["林委員淑芬：如同你剛才講的數據，你自己講得一清二楚，都是刑事判決才移送懲戒，這5年裡面，你講不出來，一涉案沒有經過刑事判決，行政責任、倫理責任、還有我們剛剛講的懲戒責任都沒有被究責到、都沒有移送到懲戒會去懲戒。所以我就跟你講，臺灣光是司法制度，臺灣司法制度的民事訴訟都不需要等到刑事判決才需要負起民事責任，沒有，這個東西是一樣的道理，如果你們是用一個比較高的標準，他是等於利用職務、利用執行業務去對人家性侵、性騷欸！這不是踩到道德倫理的界線了，這是連在法律上都踩到界線了，對不對？"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["林委員淑芬：行政責任、倫理責任、懲戒責任、刑法責任各自有不同的要件和認定標準，所以呢？各自的調查程序和懲戒的標準及程序都不會一樣啊。現在看到的實務面，從中央到地方，就是要求判決後才要移送懲戒。"],["林次長靜儀：沒有要求判決後才移送懲戒。"],["林委員淑芬：你們的不成文規定就是這樣子啊。"],["林次長靜儀：我們希望一切都能主動……"],["林委員淑芬：你剛才講的，在5年內的統計，你沒有辦法說出一件涉案就移送懲戒會的案子，沒有。"],["林次長靜儀：我們也認為這樣過度保守，希望大家能夠積極提出。"],["林委員淑芬：你剛才的統計資料就是沒有，你在這裡嘴巴說你沒有這麼認為，但你們實務面都是這樣子做，而你還在這裡嘴巴硬，不願意承認。剛剛你承認你們有這個問題，當你們承認有這個問題，你承認，然後你說你們未來會改進，那麼我們是可以接受的。你現在是說「我們沒有，我們統統都沒有」。"],["林次長靜儀：我沒有嘴硬，但是我們也知道這個內部太過保守。"],["林委員淑芬：你現在就是說「我統統都沒有」。"],["林次長靜儀：內部處理太過保守，而且其實也藉這個機會，因為接下來在7月份臺北市衛生醫生要針對三位醫師的狀況來開懲戒，我們也藉這個機會希望大家在懲戒的過程能夠有比較有效的作用。"],["林委員淑芬：好，我再問你一個問題，狼醫只有婦產科有嗎？狼醫只有婦產科有嗎？精神科、兒科的狼醫就算判刑以後還仍然繼續執業，你們還沒收了民眾的知情權。今天要討論的是到婦產科醫師看診，大家都提心吊膽，但是你知道2022年有一個兒科的紀性男醫師，是一個女童的主治醫師，一時誤想利用女童求診時，為女童與陪同母親實施心臟超音波檢查，疑似多次手持超音波探頭，以手抓住碰觸乳房、乳頭的方式，涉及猥褻行為，法院審理也判刑了7個月，緩刑兩年半。判刑7個月，緩刑兩年半，沒有吊銷醫生執照，沒有。"],["林次長靜儀：這個醫師懲戒他們後來做成的決議是警告，我們也希望大家能夠針對這樣，尤其是未成年個案，事實上，醫界應該要有更強的自律才對。"],["林委員淑芬：我們要的是知情權，我以後要去看醫生，我都要先到衛福部的官網上去看這個醫生有沒有交付懲戒的紀錄，這個醫生有沒有涉及刑事案件，更何況兒少法第四十九條及第九十七條規定，猥褻兒童得公布加害人姓名，我們更嚴謹了，狼師、兒虐幼保員有定期公開的機制，甚至涉及到性別不當對待的事件，會處以終身或幾年內不可任用，也沒有辦法進到教保機關繼續服務，可是對狼醫對兒童猥褻，你們是輕輕放下，而且還能夠繼續持續看診服務，而且查詢不到。我們對性侵案零容忍，你們這個平台雖然是在野黨委員提的，但也是衛環委員會通過的，你們承諾人家要建置一個平台，你們沒有完成就算了，還繼續包庇這種狼醫，你們就是狼醫的幫兇，就不要講說要法律授權，有法律授權啊，兒少法有沒有法律授權？有沒有？"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["林委員淑芬：請問你們公布在哪裡？"],["林次長靜儀：所以這幾個案子我們會全面地以……"],["林委員淑芬：兒少法規定加害者的名字都要公布，你們有公布嗎？沒有，因為他是醫生，所以不用公布。如果他是教保員或是狼師，就要公布了。是醫生，就輕輕放下，不是嗎？你們的醫事查詢系統也可以優化啊，因為我們要去看婦產科、要內診，有時候要麻醉、會昏迷，我不知道醫生會對我做什麼，我也很害怕，我可不可以上網去查詢一下這個醫生有沒有前科，有沒有移送懲戒？連兒少的也都可以看的到啊，所以你可以在這個既有的醫事查詢系統去優化啊。可是你看你們的醫事查詢系統，大概只能證明他是一個有合格執照的醫師吧，網頁上有姓名、人員類別、執業的縣市，如果同一個縣市有兩個同名同姓的醫師，執登科別、類別都一樣，我要怎麼辨認哪一個是狼醫，哪一個是我要查詢的那個我在乎的醫師？","那我就用這個查詢網站為基礎，我再問你第二個問題，同名、同姓、同科別，都一樣，我怎麼確認哪個是哪個？這是第一個。第二個，這個網站裡面，如果醫事人員犯案以後，甚至遭到判刑以後沒有被你們吊銷執照，他改名了，我怎麼查詢他？改了名就海闊天空了，人生重來了，他改名了就不會對病患繼續上下其手嗎？我不知道你們給我們的知情權是怎麼樣，是這種沒有效的查詢系統，而且重點也不在這裡，重點還有一個，改名以外還有一個，你們自己在上面的說明：醫事查詢系統的類別上就是一個笑話，民眾在網頁上可以得到完整的資訊嗎？事實上是「不是」，你們網頁最底下的說明，民眾查詢到的都是醫事人員同意放置的項目，這網站不是完整的資訊，你看到的資訊都是因為這些醫事人員同意給你看，你才看得到，醫事人員不想給你看，你就看不到，所以你們有提醒大家，如果要去查查看這是不是狼醫、有沒有紀錄，如果你在網頁上查詢不到，不代表這個人不是醫事人員，所以這是不是很荒謬？次長，有沒有很荒謬？衛福部的醫事人員查詢系統不管是否查詢得到，都在有或沒有之間，所以連他有沒有執照都查不到，無照醫師滿街跑，無照醫師也查詢得到啊。"],["林次長靜儀：無照醫師不會在這上面，因為這上面必須要有執照，然後有執登。"],["林委員淑芬：你怎麼那麼好笑？有照的醫師不在這上面才好笑，無照醫師當然不在這上面，但是你的好笑荒謬是有照醫師也可以不在上面，有照醫師不在上面，所以你查詢的這個人到底是有照無照，不知道。那我請問你，你自己的名字為什麼不在上面？"],["林次長靜儀：因為我現在停業。"],["林委員淑芬：陳時中為什麼在上面？"],["林次長靜儀：因為他現在可以……"],["林委員淑芬：羅一鈞為什麼在上面？"],["林次長靜儀：我現在在衛福部，所以我停業……"],["林委員淑芬：蘇清泉為什麼在上面？陳菁徽為什麼在上面？因為你不想被人家查詢。"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，我不是，是因為我現在是停業，我沒有執業登記，所以我現在不能在上面。"],["林委員淑芬：那陳時中有嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：這我不清楚。"],["林委員淑芬：他有執業登記喔，那有沒有違規違法？羅一鈞也有，蘇清泉有，陳菁徽也有，你們都還是一直在看診，有執業登記。"],["林次長靜儀：委員的話是可以的。"],["林委員淑芬：所以我現在要跟你說，因為各種因素沒執業的，即便司法卡案在上面，你也是查不到，所以這種醫師可以利用這種方式──不想公開，來掩飾無法執業的問題。我要去查詢某某某他是不是涉案，然後上面的說明說，查不到不代表他沒有醫師執照，因為他可以公開、也可以不公開，這個制度沒問題嗎？改了名以後的狼醫怎麼辦？這制度沒問題嗎？你給我們的就只有這樣子，就只有這個簡單的資料，這樣子不用精進嗎？如果對兒少犯性侵害需要公開，上面也查詢不到，這沒有問題嗎？你自己說，這樣都沒有問題嗎？不用改進嗎？不用精進嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：要改進，一定要改進，再一次報告委員，我還是一再強調，醫事人員，尤其是醫師，在持續的繼續教育過程中都有相關的性別平等或相關的性騷擾防治等等的學分。再來，醫事機構本身基於性別工作平等法跟性騷擾防治法，也有針對……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在不是在講醫事機構跟醫療人員，我現在講的是衛福部的這個網頁、這個網站、這個平台是衛福部的責任！"],["林次長靜儀：所以跟委員報告，因為之前1月份的時候部長也有承諾，我們要有一些公開的網頁資訊，所以這個部分在部長從日內瓦回來之後，我會跟他儘速把這個部分做起來補強。"],["林委員淑芬：好，你現在知道有公開了，1月到現在已經多久了？醫改團體說你們這個網頁查詢門檻很高，民眾難自保，只能查到醫事人員的執業縣市，無法得知執業資格是否還有效。"],["林次長靜儀：執業資格有效才會在上面。"],["林委員淑芬：因為他可以不登啊！"],["林次長靜儀：他不登的話，民眾上去看，找不到，民眾會懷疑他不是醫師，他們就……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，上面告訴人家。"],["林次長靜儀：是，也就是說，能在上面查到的……"],["林委員淑芬：你把畫紅線的部分再看一遍。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["林委員淑芬：執業中的醫事人員同意放置的才給予公開，如果沒有查到，不代表此人不為醫事人員，你這句話不就笑話，你還能夠講得出來。理論上，查詢不到應該全部都是無照的，可是你的制度讓他們可以閃躲，躲在有照但是不想公開的人後面。"],["林次長靜儀：這個部分我們來調整。"],["林委員淑芬：就是承認你們不足、承認有錯誤、承認你們做得不好，就是這樣子而已。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["林委員淑芬：所以呢，沒有辦法得知資格、懲處和判決紀錄，懲戒紀錄四散各處，查詢不易、搜尋不到或是匿名，那改名的呢？民眾就醫自保，改名的醫師就查不到，那改名的部分怎麼處理？"],["林次長靜儀：所以其實還是要跟著他的執登跟執業執照的部分來走。"],["林委員淑芬：就改名了。"],["林次長靜儀：雖然他改了名字，可是他的執登還在啊，所以到時候如果公開資訊上來處理……"],["林委員淑芬：我怎麼會知道他的執登號碼跟前一個是一樣的？"],["林次長靜儀：我們在上面這個網站來處理。"],["林委員淑芬：關於需要依法公開的資訊、不需要修法的，有剛剛講的醫師懲戒辦法第二十二條及法院組織法第八十三條，針對判決和懲戒確定的名單就屬政府應公開的資料，我剛剛講，涉及兒少的也必要公開，都不會違反任何法律，都有法律授權，那可不可以放進去？可不可以放進去？"],["林次長靜儀：依照委員指導，這些政府要求公開的資訊，我們把它整在一起，讓衛福部這邊……"],["林委員淑芬：整合在這個平台，可以嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：我們看是整合在這個平台，或是讓大家在首頁能夠看得到。"],["林委員淑芬：事權統一，如果這一塊這麼簡單、這麼容易，你們應作為而不作為就是行政怠惰，而且距離部長1月承諾的，真的是搞很久了，英美各個國家都有建置公開平台，公布所有醫師的資格、背景、執業的狀況，還可以就近、可近性地查詢有無紀律處分紀錄，強化民眾自主把關，透過平台的建置，也能夠強化醫界的自律，更重要是減低民眾對特定科別，尤其是對涉及隱私之科別的不信任感及擔憂，這個是有很多的好處啊！大多數醫師都不會違規、不會違法，大多數醫師也都樂於看到這些劣幣被淘汰，但護短的體制是惡行的溫床啊！護短的體制是惡行的溫床，對於性暴力零容忍，政府及醫界都不應該視而不見、輕放拖延。我們知道建置或優化這個平台的前提是不影響醫師的清白，但也需要在不影響病人安全及隱私維護之間做權衡，這個細節就看你們要納入多細微的程度，所以你要邀集相關利害團體一起討論。我們要的是知情權、民眾要的是知情權，才能夠保障醫病雙方的權利，給我們一個安心就醫的環境。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員的指導。"],["林委員淑芬：你覺得衛福部需要多久時間可以做好這個平台的優化？"],["林次長靜儀：剛剛有委員要求我們在1個月內要規劃好相關公開資訊的部分。"],["林委員淑芬：剛剛他沒有討論得很清楚，但我現在講得很清楚，移送懲戒的、相關的、法院判決的……"],["林次長靜儀：政府規定要求公開的，我們都會放在平台上公開。"],["林委員淑芬：還有剛剛講的不是判刑確定的部分，過去五年光是違反醫事倫理的沒有一件送懲戒。關於這個標準，你要發公文下去，從中央到地方，告訴這個國家所有的執法人員，不是只有判刑確定而已。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["林委員淑芬：好啦！謝謝。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員、謝謝次長。","我們現在先處理臨時提案，總共有3案，請一併宣讀。","臨時提案3項：","一、案由：","近來婦產科醫師涉及性侵、性騷案件層出不窮，有國立臺灣大學醫學院附設醫院的婦產科主任，涉性騷多名醫院同仁，經性平會認定性騷情節重大，然至今仍擔任甄審專科醫師資格的學會理事長，甚至據報載將率團代表台灣出訪日本；近日又有婦產科醫師遭爆110年在住院醫師訓練期間對患者性侵，直至今年5月判決出爐，期間未被停職或公布姓名，仍持續接受訓練、診治病人，時間長達3年半。醫師對病人或其他醫療人員（如醫師、護理師）進行性騷擾，同時破壞了權力信任關係與醫療專業倫理。在醫療環境中，醫師往往掌握高度專業知識與決策權，病人則處於身心脆弱、依賴專業照護的狀態，醫療同儕之間也存在階級與上下指導關係。性騷擾、性侵行為不只是個人行為的失控，更是一種對專業素養的違背，甚至將影響整體醫療品質。現行醫師法第25條規定：「醫師有下列情事之一者，由醫師公會或主管機關移付懲戒：二、利用業務機會之犯罪行為，經判刑確定。……四、執行業務違背醫學倫理。……」於醫療場所出現性侵或性騷等行為，本屬於違背醫學倫理重大，然現今各單位均拘泥於第2款的判刑確定，導致懲戒程序緩不濟急，無法即時處理嚴重的違失，爰要求衛生福利部針對醫師法現行條文作出函釋，敘明「違背醫學倫理」之完整內涵，以及應移送懲戒的明確時機與制度指引，供各單位參考，以維護醫病關係與醫療環境的正義與安全。","提案人：陳菁徽　　盧縣一　　陳昭姿","二、主旨：","有鑑於為解決我國醫學中心急診壅塞問題，衛生福利部已於2月擬定三大短期因應策略，分別為醫學中心強化院內病床調度、加強區域醫院聯防機制、強化民眾分級就醫資訊；至於二大中長程改革方向，則是強化護理人力整備及鼓勵醫院投入急重症，研議健保調整給付。然而，考量該類措施發揮的政策效果不盡理想，以至於今年仍有60位急診醫師離職；同時，又有將急診醫師的診療費，錯誤的認定成為提升急診的醫師護理費用等費用計算爭議。爰此，特要求衛生福利部限期於2週內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交精進與檢討報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　盧縣一　　蘇清泉","三、主旨：","有鑑於在賴總統520就職滿周年之際，我國由台灣醫院協會、中華民國醫師公會全國聯合會、中華民國護理師護士公會全國聯合會、台灣私立醫療院所協會、台灣醫務管理學會等5大醫事團體藉聯合聲明，喊話政府應正視美國關稅政策必定延伸至醫藥原物料與醫療設備，將使健保支出壓力倍增之事實，並應馬上解決位來就「因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及國土安全韌性特別預算」規劃之健保基金預算配比僅200億，將明顯不足以支應當前醫療體系所承受的嚴峻壓力，與無法有效因應長期健保點值徧低，導致醫護人力吃緊與進口藥品、醫材成本上漲等急迫問題。是以，特決議衛生福利部應以將配比自200億提升至500億為目標，來積極向行政院及行政院主計總處爭取，藉以提升醫療韌性，並完備透過全面推動擴大癌症篩檢、百億癌藥基金、長照3.0升級、健保財務改革等重大政策，達成健康台灣之施政目標，並於一個月內向本委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　盧縣一　　蘇清泉"],["主席：第一案，請問行政單位有沒有意見？"],["呂簡任技正念慈：主席，衛福部這邊針對第一案的部分，我們希望將倒數第五行的「各有關單位，包含衛福部、醫院與公會均有權依法移送懲戒」刪除。因為委員提案的本意是希望不要讓各衛生局在移付懲戒的過程中認為需要拘泥於第二款的判刑確定，部裡對於這個訴求一定會照做，因此，為維持整個文案的明確性，建議把剛才所唸的文字刪除，以上。"],["陳委員菁徽：主席，我可以回復一下嗎？"],["主席：好，可以。"],["陳委員菁徽：這邊有一篇今年5月13日的新聞，內容講到關於黃姓醫師的事件，因此衛福部表示已發文請地方衛生局啟動醫師懲戒委員會，調查完成後，最嚴重可能會廢止醫師證書。這表示你們自己其實就做了這件事情、你們自己就發文給了地方衛生局，為什麼這句話需要刪除呢？"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，原來的法律中規定的是公會及地方主管機關啟動懲戒，衛福部這邊是知悉這個判決之後另外要求。我們會希望在衛福部有機會知悉這個案子之前，公會或地方主管機關知悉這件事情後就可以依據性騷或性平三法啟動懲戒。"],["陳委員菁徽：這幾個禮拜有許多新聞事件，包括你說衛生局或衛福部不一定會通靈，因此，假使醫師公會或醫療院所沒有揭露或移送懲戒，這是你們也沒有辦法做的事情。然而，今天早上大家討論了這麼多希望可以補這些漏洞的地方，不就是為了這個嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，剛剛也有委員指導，所以我們衛福部會再發文給各地方衛生局及公會，提醒各相關公會及地方政府，假設它知悉有這樣的事情，應該就可以移送，不需要拘泥於第二款判刑確定的規定。"],["陳委員菁徽：今天早上醫師公會全聯會可能是看到了新聞，所以他們就提出衛生福利部曾經發給他們的一個函，如果醫學倫理客觀上都足以執行醫師職務有關均可屬之，但這個範圍是真的很大！因此，剛剛有很多委員都很擔心，誠如你剛剛所講，這個醫師可能在這個地方工作，或者與這個地方的公會有非常好的關係，所以我們才會希望擴大能夠移送懲戒的單位，畢竟還是有可能遇到這樣的狀況啊！"],["林次長靜儀：移送懲戒的單位是寫在醫師法第五條，不是醫療法第二十五條吧！這個應該是醫師懲戒辦法吧！"],["呂簡任技正念慈：對，醫師法第二十五條。"],["林次長靜儀：醫師法第二十五條，不是醫療法。委員，這邊是不是……"],["呂簡任技正念慈：向委員回報一下，之前醫師公會全聯會針對性騷是不是適用違反醫學倫理的部分曾經函詢衛福部，所以我們在今年4月22日……"],["陳委員菁徽：我有，在這裡。"],["呂簡任技正念慈：對，因為這個案子的focus在於性騷是不是適用違反醫倫的部分，我們做出明確的解釋，但是就如你剛剛所說的，違反醫學倫理的範圍其實很大，因為在醫師倫理守則中就是這麼大的範圍。"],["陳委員菁徽：也是，我把這份給你們。我可以讓你們刪掉那句話，但是，早上醫師公會也告訴我，他們認為這裡面的定義真的是困難的。"],["林次長靜儀：我想委員也很清楚，事實上，我們與委員一樣都認同法律是最低的、最後的道德標準，因此，在原本的醫師法第二十五條，醫師有下列情事，由醫師公會或主管機關移付懲戒，事實上，第二款的規定是利用業務機會犯罪經判刑確定，但是我們也強調，無論是在第一款的業務上有重大或重複發生過失行為，第三款的非屬醫療必要過度用藥或治療行為，第四款的執行業務違背醫學倫理，或是第五款提到在其他業務上的不正當行為，其實醫事團體內部在專業上會清楚知道執行業務的這個模式、這個方式已經違背了醫學倫理。當然醫師公會可以說這個很不容易認定，但是回過頭來，就是自己業內的人最清楚知道在執行業務中的倫理是什麼，他可以做什麼、他不可以做什麼或他應該做什麼。"],["陳委員菁徽：應該說就是因為他們在同一個體系內，因此他們就更難去做你提到的認定，但我可以同意你們把這句話刪除。不過，早上全聯會表示希望除了解釋倫理的部分之外，可不可以也正式函示給所有的醫療機構，不是只有全聯會收到就可以了。"],["呂簡任技正念慈：我們會再一次把醫師法第二十五條提到的部分及相關醫師懲戒辦法的文字都函示給地方主管機關及公會。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：次長，請問一下，各縣市的醫師公會及藥師公會等等，他們是倫理委員會，並沒有特定的懲戒委員會？"],["林次長靜儀：他們要請衛生局召開懲戒委員會。"],["主席：是先送交各縣市的醫師公會、藥師公會或什麼公會，等他們的倫理委員會做完裁定之後送交衛生局，再由衛生局做懲戒，是這樣嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：一發現有這樣的情事，事實上，公會就可以把調查後的資料交給地方衛生局。"],["主席：地方衛生局就直接裁定要停職或……"],["林次長靜儀：啟動醫師懲戒委員會，衛生局要召開懲戒委員會。"],["主席：到部裡是沒有啦？"],["林次長靜儀：部是第二層，如果地方的懲戒委員會做出懲戒決定之後有相關的爭議，我們這邊就會啟動第二次的會議，等於是第二關啦！"],["主席：第一案，把那段文字刪除，大家有沒有意見？"],["陳委員菁徽：可以，同意。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：通過。","第二案，行政單位有沒有意見？"],["林次長靜儀：配合辦理。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。"],["主席：第二案照案通過。","第三案。"],["林次長靜儀：關於第三案，我們會積極爭取，不過，至少我們會先確定200億能夠挹注健保這邊的韌性及醫藥的韌性，也謝謝委員的提案。"],["陳委員菁徽：主席，你有什麼意見？"],["主席：我又提了一個關於藥界的提案，在經濟委員會那邊，剛剛與次長做了修改，那又是另外一個案，所以大家一起來努力。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。"],["主席：第三案就照案通過。","臨時提案3案均已處理完畢。","接下來請陳菁徽委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":138,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-12","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","徐巧芯","盧縣一","黃國昌","劉建國","涂權吉","林淑芬","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","黃秀芳","洪孟楷","張啓楷","范雲","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","楊曜","賴惠員","葉元之","王育敏","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃捷"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145201_00002"}}},{"id":"161717","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161717","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7dbe14b04996fa51f30da433bb611ec39b9db0f420b3783afbd4cd7d05d3f4e96135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:32:34 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如果是主權基金成立 那投資產業大概以什麼方向為主"},{"start":211.176,"end":232.556,"text":"這個部分我覺得這個我還是想就是說這個主權基金成立以後它的整個機制的一個操作模式跟未來投資的一個規劃方向都必須要有一個專責的一個投資機構來做處理而不是說我們自己在這邊個人或者是這樣來表達這樣的一個意見是好沒關係那部長先請為好了我請教副總裁"},{"start":235.344,"end":241.351,"text":"這個這幾天沒提美國銀行他有提到說預測啦台幣有可能到年底的時候會升到28.8元"},{"start":243.649,"end":251.671,"text":"然後呢 因為他們認為說這個美元大概會長就是到年底的時間大概會走弱所以台幣有可能會轉強所以有可能會再升值他預測年底會到28.8然後高盛也預測就是說如果這個"},{"start":263.916,"end":274.055,"text":"亚洲各国跟美国进行贸易协商的话将使亚洲的货币更难贬值然后他预测这个海币跟海元会升值我请教一下这个副总裁的看法"},{"start":275.905,"end":304.012,"text":"我們長期以來我們觀察到就是各個投資銀行他有他自己的預測那我覺得我們只是參考而已那因為影響到匯率或者是國際美元走勢的因素太多了我覺得用這種很直覺式的去推測就28點那我不要講那一個數字出來好了我們講一個趨勢好了那您認為說這個到年底之前台幣的走向是深"},{"start":305.072,"end":322.86,"text":"還是貶那個報告委員因為我們長期以來我們都認為匯率我們尊重市場那央行只有在出現匯率不穩定或者是有這種操作的時候我們才會進場去維持匯率的相對穩定那所以你認為說前兩週台幣突然升值這麼多快兩塊錢那你認為這樣正常嗎因為"},{"start":329.773,"end":351.846,"text":"我想那是一個操作策略也是透過這樣子的一種方式來降低大家對生殖的預期一種這過去我們也有採取類似的操作策略過因為楊總裁有提到說這個央行在這個新興之火開始的時候沒有去撲滅然後後來呢這個造成這個新火燎原之勢了"},{"start":352.526,"end":380.668,"text":"那接下來我想請問一下那央行對於說如果這個美元有可能會傾向弱勢的貨幣台幣有可能相對轉強那央行相對的做法是怎麼樣我想美元弱勢或強勢它自己國內也有不同的看法所以我們在這種美元波動的時候不管它是弱勢強勢會影響到台幣匯率的時候我們的一個前提就是維持匯率的相對穩定"},{"start":382.77,"end":396.514,"text":"目前台幣的匯率有穩定嗎目前我們認為4月底5月初已經相對的穩定很多了好 謝謝副總裁那我再請教一下中部長好了來 部長 請教一下那個房屋稅2.0新制是今年開始徵收嗎 是不是"},{"start":411.225,"end":438.578,"text":"從去年7月1號開始實施今年是首度開徵2.0來做標準來課徵的那我們房屋稅的這個繳稅期限是到哪時候正常來說是到5月底那今年因為是第一次的開徵嘛第一次開徵有發生一些狀況然後這個部分如果要更正稅單等等的話都可以延後就是說由稅均積增機關重新開單然後期限繳款期限往後延"},{"start":439.281,"end":454.547,"text":"那你們地帶是不是設在6月2號嗎6月2號是說本來你要在3月24號以前來申報自住的話你沒有在這個時間來申報就是說你要簽了戶籍然後申報自住你沒有在時間但是因為第一年實施這樣情況所以我們認為說把它延後到6月2號之前你來"},{"start":458.548,"end":478.877,"text":"辦理這樣的一個事情就可以用自住的稅率來課徵那6月2號沒有延啊那本來就是你們5月底就是要申報啦房屋稅本來就是要申報到5月底那只是因為遇到假日變成6月2號而已啊那個一個是繳納期限一個就是說你是自住的話你來就是說你簽了戶籍簽進去了然後你來告訴我們說我已經簽完戶籍了我要用自住的稅率來課徵我們本來是訂在3月24號"},{"start":483.018,"end":505.043,"text":"因為是今年第一年實施那些那我是說繳納期限繳納期限的話繳納期限正常是到五月底嘛對啊因為有假日就到六月二號啦對不對對對對因為有到假日就延到六月二號我的意思是說我們這個所得稅本來是到五月三十一號也是到六月二號啦然後因為這個關稅的問題我們延長到六月三十號嘛"},{"start":507.492,"end":519.458,"text":"對不對那我的意思是說那如果這樣子因為房屋稅2.0是新制啦那又這個新制的過程當中又遇到一些比如說雙北也出現這個問題有沒有這個機會也把這個房屋稅減到期限延到6月30號"},{"start":521.038,"end":544.188,"text":"委員報告所得稅跟訪問稅不一樣所得稅是我們來做申報不管盈利事業或者綜合所得稅的中所個人都是自己來申報所以當時因為關稅政策的關係為了避免相關的盈利事業他在這個短短一方面他要應應這個關稅的措施而去調整他相關的訂單等等造成在這個五月份有一點措手不及所以把"},{"start":544.888,"end":557.054,"text":"申報的期限延到六月底但是房屋稅這個部分是屬於抵測稅是由地方政府來開單來做課徵那如果你沒有問題的話你就去繳那目前是的確發生問題啦如果發生問題的話只要有任何反應的話重新開稅單那他的繳款期限就自然是往後延的所以就沒有說一定是那個最後定來是六月二號的問題就對了"},{"start":569.521,"end":591.662,"text":"6月2號這個繳款期限沒有問題的都還是沒有問題有問題的人他會自然延後嗎他就會往後延 對對對這個部分我們也趕快會發函給地方政府請他務必要這樣做那其實依照現行規定就可以但我們請他們趕快這樣做也讓納稅一五人可以安心那所以說這樣子的話大概會延到多久呢延到多久就看他重新開單的一個時間"},{"start":593.704,"end":605.91,"text":"所以就不是說以新開單的日期為主就對了新開單期限會拉多久呢?會拉一半多久,大概是開單之後的一個月那我再請教一下,這個工業輸出人其實政府也蠻鼓勵的"},{"start":615.054,"end":631.516,"text":"那工業出租人他有一些匯率上的優稅房屋稅、地價稅還有綜合所的稅其實都有優惠那我請教一下那現在就是說人有一些因素造成就是說這個工業出租人他這個要"},{"start":632.357,"end":656.156,"text":"這個要把房子變成這個你要讓這個有租金的人來租變成公益出租人還是有兩點會有一些疑慮第一個土地增值稅的優惠沒有了第二個呢房地合一稅的免稅也沒有了那我在想說為了要鼓勵這個公益出租人的話那財政部有沒有在這個土地增值稅的優惠跟房地合一稅的優惠有沒有比較這個更進一步的一個改善的一個做法"},{"start":658.031,"end":673.924,"text":"這個部分第一個我們在地價稅跟房屋稅還有中手稅的部分對公益出租人有一些租稅的優惠最主要就是在持有稅的時候你在持有期間我們希望你把房子租出去然後同時讓成租人可以去申請租金補貼讓自己成為公益出租人"},{"start":674.324,"end":701.905,"text":"但是土地增值稅或房地合一稅最主要是在你這房地在買賣交易的時候你有所得的部分好譬如說以土地增值稅就有一個概念就是所謂漲價歸公嘛漲價歸公那這個部分那譬如說你房地合一就是我們把它算起來以前房屋沒有所謂的要課這交易要課所得稅所以把它計算這是交易的時候你有所得那才要課稅我想這兩個意義上基本上是不太一樣的這個會造成說有一些齁它"},{"start":703.187,"end":706.461,"text":"他有租人他可能也是工業出租人"},{"start":707.239,"end":732.932,"text":"但是他就怕說他未來沒有這一個土地增值稅或是說這一個房地合一稅的優惠他變成就是說他會跟他的房客講就是說雖然你是公益的出租人的房客但是為了我後來我如果要房子要買賣的時候我沒辦法享受到這些優惠然後就變成說他沒有去變成這個公益出租人去做申報"},{"start":735.375,"end":755.367,"text":"就是說他或許在這個工業這個出租人這一塊的優惠比如說房屋嗎地價或是說眾所隨他可能沒有拿到但是他萬一如果說房子有買賣的話還一比較相還發現說那我如果沒有去報這個工業出租人其實他可能這一個在這個稅率上面他其實會更優惠啊會造成這種情況啊那個"},{"start":758.191,"end":776.896,"text":"你的意思就是他可能就覺得說如果我現在房子出租了我將來在賣的時候我的稅就不會土增稅還有房地利稅會課得比較重所以你不要去報出租這個基本上我們認為就是說所謂的租屋黑市本來就是因為我們要查緝的你有出租你就該繳稅就要繳稅好那對於出租對於公益出租人來說他我們在他的持有期間已經給你稅負的一個優惠了這兩者我覺得那當然啦就是說他持有的"},{"start":785.538,"end":798.606,"text":"他持有的這個房屋地價跟這個眾所稅有優惠了那我的意思是說如果在鼓勵這個公益出租人這個情況之下你們有考慮就是說這個土地增值稅跟房地合一稅這方面的這個稅率在給予優惠嗎"},{"start":801.023,"end":822.387,"text":"這個部分我想這個部分可能要審慎的研議因為兩者稅的一個目的是不太一樣要審慎研議也就是說因為房地合一稅事實上是有價差你有價差的才會有課徵反正這個會後我再請教你們好了是謝謝謝謝主席謝謝李坤臣委員這個題很好研議一下接著我們請嚴坤臣委員"},{"start":834.688,"end":836.667,"text":"謝謝主席 各位電視觀眾大家好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":969,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時32分）謝謝主席，先請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["李委員坤城：今天央行是副總裁嘛？也請嚴副總裁。"],["主席：請副總裁。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好，副總裁好。總統在520有一個重要的宣示，就是要設立主權基金，大概是有史以來除了院長之外，總統是第一個講的，要設立主權基金，所以方向已經非常明確了。我記得我們上禮拜專報，大家還在討論要不要設、怎麼設，然後專法要怎麼弄、財源要從哪裡來，我先請教部長，總統已經有宣示了，那你們有沒有一個節奏？接下來要怎麼做？"],["莊部長翠雲：有關主權基金後續相關的做法，行政院會邀集相關部會來做討論跟研議規劃。"],["李委員坤城：主要是國發會嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分當然包含國發會、央行以及財主單位等等，還有相關部會。"],["李委員坤城：那財政部要做的咧？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分在行政院召開會議的時候，會再一起討論。"],["李委員坤城：所以總統宣示之前，你們都不知道總統在520會講一個主權基金出來？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我沒有參與過，但是府院也許會有討論吧！"],["李委員坤城：這樣子。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，那副總裁呢？這個主權基金已經講了滿久了，從報章媒體來看，過去比較認為阻力都是來自於央行，我想請問一下副總裁的看法？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我想我剛才已經講過，央行長期以來，從彭前總裁到楊總裁，我們對於主權基金一向都主張正面去思考，但是唯一我們希望透過專法或設立專責管理機關，以及外匯存底不能夠直接撥用，這幾個原則去思考。"],["李委員坤城：就是說也支持設立主權基金。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：對，我們一向……"],["李委員坤城：但是不要用到外匯。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：對。"],["李委員坤城：央行的態度就是這樣子嘛！"],["嚴副總裁宗大：是。"],["李委員坤城：設立專法我想大家應該都沒有問題，本來就要設立專法。","我再請教一下部長好了，因為主權基金就是要彰顯臺灣的主權嘛！才叫主權基金，它跟國發基金不一樣，國發基金投資的大概就是臺灣的產業或一些新興產業，那您認為這個主權基金既然是要彰顯臺灣的主權，未來它成立之後，投資的標的是不是就以國外的產業為主？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分還要再做詳細的規劃與討論。"],["李委員坤城：不是，請教部長的意見啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，我們要先看設置的目的。第二個，要選擇什麼樣的產業以及未來機制要怎麼樣去建立，我覺得應該要整體來做考量。"],["李委員坤城：其實總統的宣示也是講得很清楚啦！這個是要投資國外產業，尤其這次的關稅我們有提到要籌組一個臺灣投資美國隊，這兩個是不是有關聯性？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個在未來討論的時候，也許可以做一個詳細規劃。"],["李委員坤城：部長講得非常保守，那您認為呢？您認為如果主權基金成立，投資的產業大概以什麼方向為主？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我還是講，主權基金成立以後，整個機制的操作模式及未來投資的規劃方向都必須要有一個專責的投資機構來處理，而不是我們自己在這邊，個人或者是怎樣來表達這樣的意見。"],["李委員坤城：好，沒關係，部長先請回好了。","我請教副總裁，這幾天媒體有報導，美國銀行預測臺幣有可能到年底的時候會升到28.8元，因為他們認為美元到年底這段期間大概會走弱，臺幣有可能會轉強，所以有可能會再升值，它預測年底會到28.8元。高盛也預測，如果亞洲各國和美國進行貿易協商的話，將使亞洲的貨幣更難貶值，它預測臺幣和韓元會升值，請教一下副總裁的看法？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，央行長期以來，我們觀察到各個投資銀行有它自己的預測，我們只是參考而已，因為影響到匯率或國際美元走勢的因素太多了，用這種很直覺式地去推測28.8元，我覺得是有點……"],["李委員坤城：好，我們不要講那個數字，我們講趨勢好了，您認為到年底之前，臺幣的走向是升還是貶？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：因為央行長期以來都認為匯率我們是尊重市場，央行只有在出現匯率不穩定或者是有這種操作的時候，我們才會進場去維持匯率的相對穩定。"],["李委員坤城：所以前兩週臺幣突然升值了這麼多，快兩塊錢，您認為這樣正常嗎？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我想那是一個操作策略，也是透過這一種方式來降低大家對升值的預期，在過去我們也有採取類似的操作策略過。"],["李委員坤城：因為楊總裁有提到，央行在星星之火開始的時候沒有去撲滅，後來造成星火燎原之勢。接下來我想請問一下，如果美元有可能會傾向弱勢的貨幣，臺幣有可能相對轉強，央行相對的做法是怎麼樣？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我想美元弱勢或強勢，它自己國內也有不同的看法，所以我們在這種美元波動的時候，不管它是弱勢強勢，會影響到臺幣匯率的時候，我們的前提就是維持匯率的相對穩定。"],["李委員坤城：那目前呢？目前臺幣的匯率有穩定嗎？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：目前我們認為較4月底5月初，已經相對的穩定很多了。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝副總裁。","我再請教一下莊部長好了。請教部長，房屋稅2.0新制是今年開始徵收，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，從去年7月1日開始實施，今年是首度開徵，用2.0做標準來課徵。"],["李委員坤城：我們房屋稅的繳稅期限是到哪時候？"],["莊部長翠雲：正常來說是到5月底，今年因為是第一次開徵，第一次開徵有發生一些狀況，這個部分如果要更正稅單等等的話都可以延後，就是由稅捐稽徵機關重新開單，然後繳款期限往後延。"],["李委員坤城：你們deadline不是設在6月2日嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：6月2日是說，本來你要在3月24日以前來申報自住，你沒有在這個時間來申報，就是說你遷了戶籍、申報自住，你沒有在時間內完成，但是因為第一年實施這樣的情況，所以我們把它延後到6月2日之前你來辦理這樣的事情，就可以用自住的稅率來課徵。"],["李委員坤城：你們6月2日沒有延，5月底本來就是要申報，房屋稅本來就是要申報到5月底，只是因為遇到假日變成6月2日而已。"],["莊部長翠雲：一個是繳納期限，一個是說你自住的話，你戶籍遷進去了，然後你來告訴我們已經遷完戶籍，你要用自住的稅率來課徵，我們本來是訂在3月24日，但是今年因為是第一年實施……"],["李委員坤城：對，我是說繳納期限啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：繳納期限的話，繳納期限正常是到5月底。"],["李委員坤城：對，因為有假日就到6月2日，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，有遇到假日就延到6月2日。"],["李委員坤城：我的意思是說，所得稅本來是到5月31日，也是到6月2日啦！然後因為關稅的問題，我們延長到6月30日，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["李委員坤城：我的意思是說，如果是這樣子，因為房屋稅2.0是新制，實施新制的過程當中又遇到一些狀況，比如說雙北有出現一些問題，有沒有機會也把房屋稅的繳納期限延到6月30日？"],["莊部長翠雲：所得稅跟房屋稅不一樣，所得稅是我們來做申報，不管營利事業或者綜合所得稅的綜所個人都是自己來申報，當時是因為關稅措施的關係，為了避免相關的營利事業一方面要因應關稅的措施而去調整它相關的訂單等等，造成在5月份有一點措手不及，所以把申報期限延到6月底。但是房屋稅這個部分是屬於底冊稅，是由地方政府來開單做課徵，如果你沒有問題的話你就去繳，如果稅單上有問題……"],["李委員坤城：目前的確發生問題啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：如果發生問題，只要有任何反映的話，重新開稅單，那它的繳款期限自然是往後延。"],["李委員坤城：所以沒有說最後的deadline一定是6月2日就對了？"],["莊部長翠雲：6月2日這個繳款期限，沒有問題的都還是沒有問題，有問題的就重新開單，它就會往後延。"],["李委員坤城：有問題的它會自然延後嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，這個部分我們會趕快發函給地方政府，請它務必要這樣做，其實依照現行規定就可以，但我們請他們趕快這樣做，也讓納稅義務人可以安心。"],["李委員坤城：這樣子的話，大概會延到多久？"],["莊部長翠雲：延到多久就看它重新開單的時間。"],["李委員坤城：好，所以不是一律以那個日期，是以新開單的日期為主就對了。"],["莊部長翠雲：新開單的就往後延。"],["李委員坤城：新開單的期限會拉多久？"],["莊部長翠雲：就是一個月，開單以後的一個月。"],["李委員坤城：開單之後的一個月。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，一個月內繳納。"],["李委員坤城：好，我再請教一下，關於公益出租人，其實政府也滿鼓勵的啦！公益出租人有一些稅率上的優惠，包括房屋稅、地價稅及綜合所得稅，其實都有優惠，但現在仍有一些因素造成他要把房子給有租金的人來租，變成公益出租人，還是會有一些疑慮啦！第一個，土地增值稅的優惠沒有了；第二個，房地合一稅的免稅額也沒有了。那我在想，為了要鼓勵公益出租人，財政部在土地增值稅及房地合一稅的優惠有沒有更進一步的改善作法？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分第一個，我們在地價稅、房屋稅及綜所稅的部分，對公益出租人有一些租稅的優惠。"],["李委員坤城：有！"],["莊部長翠雲：最主要就是在持有稅的時候，你在持有期間我們希望你把房子租出去，同時讓承租人可以去申請租金補貼，讓自己成為公益出租人。但是土地增值稅或房地合一稅最主要是你的房地在買賣交易的時候，你有所得的部分，比如說土地增值稅有一個概念，就是所謂漲價歸公嘛！比如說你房地合一就是我們把它算起來，以前房屋沒有所謂的交易要課所得稅，所以把它計算，這是交易的時候你有所得才要課稅，這兩個在意義上是不太一樣的。"],["李委員坤城：這個會造成有一些人有出租，他可能也是公益出租人，但是他怕未來沒有土地增值稅或房地合一稅的優惠，所以他會跟他的房客講，雖然你是公益出租人的房客，但是我為了後來如果房子要買賣的時候，我沒有辦法享受到這些優惠，然後他就沒有變成公益出租人去做申報。"],["莊部長翠雲：就會隱匿他一個……"],["李委員坤城：就是說他或許在公益出租人這一塊的優惠，比如說房屋、地價或是綜所稅他可能沒有拿到，但是他萬一房子有買賣的話，他一比較才發現如果沒有去申報公益出租人，他可能在稅率上面會更優惠，會造成這種情況啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，你的意思就是他可能覺得如果現在房子出租了，將來在賣的時候，他的土增稅和房地合一稅會課得比較重，所以他不要去報出租，基本上我們認為所謂的租屋黑市本來就是我們要查緝的，你有出租，你該繳稅就要繳稅。對於公益出租人來說，我們在他的持有期間已經給予稅負的優惠了，這兩者我覺得應該是不太一樣。"],["李委員坤城：對，當然啦！他持有的房屋、地價及綜所稅有優惠了，我的意思是說，如果在鼓勵公益出租人的情況之下，你們有考慮在土地增值稅及房地合一稅這方面的稅率再給予優惠嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分可能要審慎地研議，因為稅的目的不太一樣，要審慎研議，也就是說，房地合一稅事實上是有價差嘛！你有價差的才會有課徵嘛！"],["李委員坤城：好，會後我再請教你們好了。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍代）：謝謝李坤城委員，這個提議很好，研議一下。","接著我們請顏寬恒委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-13","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","林思銘","王世堅","林楚茵","廖先翔","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1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報告我 因為我從那個過去彭總裁 彭堅總裁或楊總裁我們都沒有對外宣稱說有所謂什麼防線可是大家認同的彭華聯防線就是28.5啊對於美元啊其實台幣的匯率也有升過超過28.5的情況是 就短暫一下不過在彭總裁任內感覺還蠻穩定的那對於本席在"},{"start":59.778,"end":82.738,"text":"之前所提的主權基金其實有兩個人提案一個是吳欣穎前立委吳委員以及本席共同提案當初就希望提出主權基金的概念來配合國內的重要的企業發展可以起一個"},{"start":83.659,"end":110.925,"text":"到處帶著資金可以去跟技術結合的投資對於主權基金那嚴副總裁你覺得這個基金的size大概要多大規模要多大其實這還是要看整個那種國家主權基金我們政府希望它要多大的規模其實我很難在這邊跟農委主權基金多少"},{"start":113.519,"end":140.264,"text":"大概一兆多規模是算是非常大的幾個 新加坡 淡馬市等等全部大概都是一兆多以上是吧那個委員我這邊沒有資料所以我沒辦法跟您直接那央行對於當初我們是希望說從外匯存底裡面來提撥大概百分之十就是現在外匯存底是多少"},{"start":142.776,"end":159.93,"text":"5,828億左右大概是500多億也是大概相當1.5兆左右那央行的態度是怎麼樣我們在5月8號的總裁在這邊的報告已經很明確的點出我們對於這個主權基金裁員有三種方式"},{"start":161.004,"end":184.749,"text":"我們上次已經提過就是財政部發債財政部撥款或者財政部出資這樣子的方式那央行在這個過程裡面可能在某一塊可以做一些適度的協助那央行要不要投資這就是看整個政府對於這個基金的管理的設置那我們請財政部莊部長一起"},{"start":188.581,"end":212.972,"text":"一統 還有金管會 彭主委一起三位一起那剛提到 央行它不出錢 財務部要準備出多少錢第一個 這個主權基金的規模要多大那第二個就是它財務來源要多少一兆多以上啊一兆多這麼大的規模是嗎對好 那你這個錢準備從哪裡來"},{"start":215.892,"end":234.757,"text":"發債還是第一個我們的稅計剩餘其實並沒有那麼高那第二個就是說如果要發債的話現在公共債務法裡面並沒有涵蓋就是說可以去發債挹注主權基金所以是必要成立專法由專法裡面來做規範"},{"start":235.987,"end":252.42,"text":"所以現在財政部有沒有錢可以來投資基金?財政部的錢就是國庫的錢國庫有沒有錢?國庫的錢在我們的預算書上都非常清楚稅入、稅出、稅計、剩餘以及債務都呈現得很清楚所以講起來就是沒有錢是不是?來我幫你找一條錢,請那個彭主委"},{"start":254.977,"end":278.943,"text":"黃主席本席在這裡曾提過保險法第146條之事的提出如果在前年可以通過然後遵照我們立法院通過的決議來做的話你知道現在所有的保險公司投資在美國的公司債以及美國公債加起來的總資產大概有多少超過20兆"},{"start":281.071,"end":310.314,"text":"20兆20兆的部分投資美元資產的大概有多少大概應該是九成以上都是美元資產所以大概18兆應該有這個數字主委你想想看如果大概在一年多前本席所提案的通過的話20兆就回來10兆但是那是屬於回來10兆的話最近的話因為台幣的升值大概減損的漲上大概10%左右事實上"},{"start":311.854,"end":319.245,"text":"主委 一個動作我就幫所有的保險公司多賺了一兆啊而且你回來台灣"},{"start":320.992,"end":348.441,"text":"當初如果我們來台灣有很多很多大家都知道未來的世界就是AI的世界這是很重要的一個產業吧主委認不認同我想應該全世界大部分人都認同這個好 那我再請那個關務署我把他的數據讓你參考一下關務署長最清楚了去年大概物流進進出出外銷的部分"},{"start":349.775,"end":353.003,"text":"AI的部分佔的比例大概有多少"},{"start":354.782,"end":379.559,"text":"蕭美國的部分蕭美國的部分 包委員這數字我必須要再查一下你要查一下 因為這個不可以不知道那黃仁勳你認不認識報紙看過希望你可以跟他多聊聊你要來協助他為什麼黃仁勳他找了一共大概一百多個產業要組成一個"},{"start":381.506,"end":402.902,"text":"聽台灣一個團隊其中包括國泰金控包括玉山金控都入列為什麼因為他這個產業周邊大概比較重要的大概有45家一個數據你去查一下就知道去年"},{"start":404.151,"end":431.64,"text":"進出在自由貿易港區出去的部分總共金額是三兆多AI相關的產業NVIDIA的那一棟就在遠雄自貿港區的那一棟大概就接近兩兆所以希望署長你要把那些數字查出來來告訴提供這些重要的財經長官他們來做判斷是"},{"start":432.912,"end":435.655,"text":"所以未來的發展,台灣如何在國際上發光發亮,掌控未來,事實上除了技術之外,就是後面的晶圓"},{"start":453.339,"end":471.925,"text":"你要投資啊那主委你贊不贊成剛剛本席所提的海外的這些資金你可以回來就是當我們成立主權基金的時候看什麼樣的方式他們也可以投入當然這個屬性上有所差別因為這是屬於保險業的資產"},{"start":473.345,"end":483.195,"text":"他必須要轉換成某一個工具才有辦法做投入比如剛剛委員提到假設政府是以舉債的方式如果他的條件合一的話我們也會鼓勵我們的保險業來投資這樣的一個這個也符合他們長期投資的債券"},{"start":491.002,"end":518.324,"text":"是 主委你有沒有算過所有的保險公司在海外的部分現在所持有的美國公債以及美國公司債加起來你講個多少現在我剛剛跟我們報告那個數字裡面其實持有美國公債大概五千七百億左右台幣五千七百億那其他的部分大部分都是公司債居多好 那如果台幣繼續升值升值到二十七塊的時候對這些保險公司會產生什麼樣的影響"},{"start":519.076,"end":541.287,"text":"我想任何一個匯率的波動對於我們有這麼巨大在海外資產如果說沒有做相對應的避險當然對財報賬戶上是會有蠻大的波動我也上次講過假設我想很多媒體也揭露過就是我們現在大概是假設以六兆是沒有避險的話那相當於兩千億"},{"start":543.468,"end":556.192,"text":"兩千億美元的話大概就是一塊錢大概就是一千五百億到兩千億左右的影響數我想漲跌大概就是這樣一個幅度所以本席擔心的是因為這樣的狀況不斷的出現讓國內就受險公司的RBC每下預礦"},{"start":562.154,"end":582.068,"text":"現在低於300的有幾間?我剛剛也跟委員報告過因為我們RBC的計算是以6月30號跟12月31號假如是12月31號的我們最近那一期的話其實大概有一家是不符合RBC的比例接下來6月30號必須要到7月或8月才能算得出來"},{"start":583.12,"end":605.119,"text":"要嚴密監控啊當然我們每天都在監控該增資的有沒有要求他們要增資增資保險法有一定的規定不是說一到了不足兩百就增資它有一套非常非常周延的增資方法我們不能每次出了事情或者是下一個情況不好的時候仰賴保險安定基金保險安定基金現在有多少錢"},{"start":607.763,"end":634.523,"text":"當然安定基金不能只看那個啦他現在的基金大概四百多億四百多億一千出問題你都沒辦法解決啊我想他不是只靠這個他有其他財源就像比如說我們在過去的經驗裡面呢大家都比如說可以我們依法可以舉借這部分過去大概都是這麼做的好 那主委我們看到現在房地產的這個放貸啊有很多很多的這個情況比預期還糟"},{"start":637.627,"end":639.954,"text":"請問現在的房地產有違約的"},{"start":641.653,"end":665.544,"text":"比例有沒有增加剛剛我在那個報告的時候呢我們現在的房貸的違約只有0.07%0.07%連0.1%都不到那這個建商的部分是0.16%這個都是史上很低的很低的這個程度我想這個餘放比例呢還在非常低的請問什麼數字最近是不斷的竄升的"},{"start":667.505,"end":686.29,"text":"我想有媒體揭露那個絕對數字的部分因為當然我們的量體越大當然數字就會增加但是那個比率還是維持一樣而且在一個非常低的水準特別是我們的自用的房貸的部分請多注意一下這樣的情況最後一個問題金融風暴會不會再度來襲"},{"start":693.558,"end":716.574,"text":"這個我想就一個金融監理機關每天都要有這樣的一個預備這是我們的日常好 謝謝那個央行謝謝美國的殖利率30年期的公債漲到5%啦美元的地位不保央行有沒有調節我們的外匯存底美金的比例"},{"start":718.22,"end":738.253,"text":"我想那個長期以來我們會隨時去注意到國際的金融情勢我們會做適度的適度一直都有做適度的調整最近有調整嗎老師說我沒有資料但是我知道我們固定都會有看那個國外的經濟金融情勢變動做適度的調整好 多小心啦 謝謝謝謝羅恩的質詢下面請李坤城委員質詢請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":869,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時19分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，請央行嚴副總裁。"],["主席：請嚴副總裁。"],["羅委員明才：嚴副總裁，你好。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：最近台幣的漲勢稍微緩和一點，面對未來有沒有可能，因為彭總裁你比較熟吧？彭淮南。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：是。"],["羅委員明才：你比較久了。上次提到彭總裁，有人說沒有彭淮南防線，究竟彭淮南防線是指幾塊錢？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，因為從過去彭前總裁或楊總裁，我們都沒有對外宣稱有所謂什麼防線的問題……"],["羅委員明才：可是大家認同的彭淮南防線就是28.5台幣對1美元。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：其實台幣的匯率也有升值超過28.5的情況。"],["羅委員明才：是，就是短暫期間，不過在彭總裁任內，感覺匯率還滿穩定的。本席之前所提的主權基金，其實有兩個人提案，一個是前立委吳欣盈委員，以及本席共同提案，當初就希望提出主權基金的概念，配合國內重要企業的發展，可以起一個到處帶著資金可以去跟技術結合的投資。對於主權基金，嚴副總裁，你覺得這個基金的size大概要多大、規模要多大？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：這還是要看整個國家主權基金，我們政府希望它要多大的規模，其實我很難在這邊跟您……"],["羅委員明才：挪威主權基金多少？大概一兆多。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：規模算是非常大的，挪威或……"],["羅委員明才：幾個主權基金，包含新加坡淡馬錫等等，全部大概都是一兆多以上，是吧？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：委員，我這邊沒有資料，所以我沒辦法跟您直接報告。"],["羅委員明才：當初我們是希望從外匯存底裡面來提撥大概10%，現在外匯存底是多少？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：5,828億左右。"],["羅委員明才：對，大概是五百多億，也是大概相當1.5兆左右，那央行的態度是怎麼樣？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：5月8號我們總裁在這邊的報告已經很明確的點出，主權基金的財源有三種方式，我們上次已經提過就是財政部發債、財政部撥款，或者財政部出資這樣的方式，那央行在這個過程裡面，可能在某一塊可以做一些適度的協助。"],["羅委員明才：那央行要不要投資？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：這就看整個政府對於這個基金的管理設置……"],["羅委員明才：好，那我們請財政部莊部長一同，還有金管會彭主委也一起，請三位一起。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：剛剛提到央行不出錢，財政部要準備出多少錢？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，這個主權基金的規模要多大？第二個就是它的財務來源要多少，對不對？"],["羅委員明才：剛剛有講，一般都一兆多以上。"],["莊部長翠雲：一兆多這麼大的規模是嗎？"],["羅委員明才：對。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["羅委員明才：那這個錢你準備從哪裡來？發債還是？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，我們的歲計賸餘並沒有那麼高；第二個，如果要發債的話，現在公共債務法裡面並沒有涵蓋可以去發債挹注主權基金，所以勢必要成立專法，由專法來做規範。"],["羅委員明才：所以現在財政部有沒有錢可以來投資基金？"],["莊部長翠雲：財政部的錢就是國庫的錢。"],["羅委員明才：國庫有沒有錢？"],["莊部長翠雲：國庫的錢在我們的預算書上都寫得非常清楚，歲入、歲出、歲計賸餘以及債務都呈現得很清楚。"],["羅委員明才：講起來就是沒有錢，是不是？來，我幫你找一條錢。","來，請彭主委。","彭主委，本席在這裡曾提過保險法第一百四十六條之四的提出，如果在前年可以通過，就遵照我們立法院通過的決議來做的話，你知道現在所有保險公司投資在美國的公司債以及美國公債，加起來的總資產大概有多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：超過20兆。"],["羅委員明才：20兆當中，投資美元資產的大概有多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：大概應該九成以上都是美元資產。"],["羅委員明才：所以大概18兆？"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該有這個數字。"],["羅委員明才：主委，你想想看，如果大概在一年多前，本席所提的案通過的話，20兆就回來10兆……"],["彭主任委員金隆：但是那是屬於……"],["羅委員明才：回來10兆的話，最近因為台幣升值，帳上的減損大概10%，事實上，主委，一個動作我就幫所有的保險公司多賺了1兆啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果臺灣……"],["羅委員明才：而且回來臺灣，當初如果回來臺灣……"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果臺灣也有部分投資標的的話……"],["羅委員明才：有很多很多，大家都知道，未來的世界就是AI的世界，這是很重要的一個產業吧！主委認不認同？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想應該全世界大部分人都認同這個。"],["羅委員明才：好，我再請關務署，我把他的數據讓你參考一下。關務署長最清楚了，去年物流進進出出外銷的部分，AI的部分占的比例大概有多少？銷往美國的部分。"],["彭署長英偉：銷往美國的部分？報告委員，這個數字我必須要再查一下。"],["羅委員明才：你要查一下，因為這個不可以不知道。"],["彭署長英偉：那個AI的項目非常多。"],["羅委員明才：那黃仁勳你認不認識？"],["彭署長英偉：在報紙上看過。"],["羅委員明才：看過喔？希望你可以跟他多聊聊，你要來協助他。為什麼黃仁勳找了一共大概一百多個產業，要組成一個Team Taiwan團隊，其中包括國泰金控，包括玉山金控都入列，為什麼？因為他這個產業周邊比較重要的大概有45家，你去查一下一個數據就知道，去年的進出口，從自由貿易港區出去的部分，總共金額是三兆多，AI相關的產業，NVIDIA的那一棟，就在遠雄自貿港區的那一棟，大概就接近兩兆。所以希望署長，你要把那些數字查出來，提供給這些重要的財經長官來做判斷。"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。"],["彭署長英偉：謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：接著請彭主委。","彭主委，他們的數字都會給你，所以未來的發展，臺灣如何在國際上發光發亮、掌控未來，除了技術之外就是後面的金援，你要投資啊。主委，你贊不贊成剛剛本席所提的，海外的資金可以回來，當我們成立主權基金的時候，看用什麼樣的方式他們也可以投入？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然這個屬性上也有所差別，因為這是屬於保險業的資產，他必須要轉換成某一個工具才有辦法做投入，比如剛剛委員有提到，假設政府是以舉債的方式，如果他的條件合宜的話，我們也會鼓勵……"],["羅委員明才：他可以買債啊。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們也鼓勵我們的保險業來投資這樣一個也符合他們長期投資的債券。"],["羅委員明才：主委，你有沒有算過，所有保險公司在海外的資產，現在所持有的美國公債以及美國公司債加起來一共有多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛剛跟委員報告的那個數字裡面，其實持有美國公債大概5,700億左右的台幣，其他的大部分都是公司債居多。"],["羅委員明才：好。那如果台幣繼續升值，升值到27塊的時候，對這些保險公司會產生什麼樣的影響？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想任何匯率的波動，對於有這麼巨大的海外資產，如果沒有做相對應的避險，當然對財報帳務上是會有蠻大的波動。我上次也講過，我想很多媒體也揭露過，我們現在假設有6兆相當於2,000億美元是沒有避險的話，匯率波動一塊錢大概就是1,500億到2,000億左右的影響數，我想漲跌大概就是這樣的幅度。"],["羅委員明才：本席擔心的是，因為這樣的狀況不斷的出現，讓國內壽險公司的RBC每下愈況，現在低於三百的有幾間？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛剛也跟委員報告過，因為我們RBC的計算是以6月30號跟12月31號，假設12月31號我們最近那一期的話，其實有一家大概是不符合RBC的比率，接下來6月30號這一次，必須要到7月或8月才能算得出來。"],["羅委員明才：要嚴密監控。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，我們每天都在監控。"],["羅委員明才：該增資的，有沒有要求他們要增資？"],["彭主任委員金隆：增資部分保險法有一定的規定，不是說一到了不足兩百就增資，它有一套非常非常周延的增資……"],["羅委員明才：主委，我們不能每次出了事情，或者是下一個情況不好的時候就仰賴保險安定基金。保險安定基金現在有多少錢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然安定基金不能只看那個啦！現在的基金大概四百多億。"],["羅委員明才：四百多億，一間出問題你都沒辦法解決啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，我想它不是只靠這個，它有其他的財源，比如說我們在過去的經驗裡面，我們依法可以舉借，這部分過去大概都是這麼做的。"],["羅委員明才：好，主委，我們看到現在房地產的放貸有很多很多的情況比預期還糟，請問現在這些房地產有違約的，比率有沒有增加？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛我在報告的時候，我們現在房貸的違約只有0.07%，連0.1%都不到，建商的部分是0.16%，這個都是史上很低很低的程度，我想這個逾放比率還在非常低的……"],["羅委員明才：請問什麼數字最近是不斷竄升的？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有媒體揭露那個……"],["羅委員明才：是跳票還是什麼？"],["彭主任委員金隆：絕對數字的部分，因為我們的量體越大，當然數字就會增加，但是那個比率還是維持一樣，而且在一個非常低的水準，特別是自用房貸的部分。"],["羅委員明才：好，請多注意一下這樣的情況。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然、當然，我們每年都會注意這件事情。"],["羅委員明才：最後一個問題，金融風暴會不會再度來襲？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想就一個金融監理機關，每天都要有這樣的預備，這是我們的日常。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。接下來請央行。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：美國的殖利率，30年期的公債漲到5%，美元的地位不保，央行有沒有調節我們外匯存底美金的比例？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我想長期以來，我們會隨時去注意國際的金融情勢，一直都有做適度的調整。"],["羅委員明才：最近有調整嗎？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：老實說我沒有資料，但是我知道我們固定都會看國外的經濟金融情勢變動，做適度的調整。"],["羅委員明才：好，要多小心啦！謝謝。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：謝謝。"],["主席（賴委員士葆）：謝謝羅委員的質詢。","下一位請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-13","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","林思銘","王世堅","林楚茵","廖先翔","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部、金融監督管理委員會、中央銀行就「房屋稅2.0課徵亂象與金融機構對不動產\n融資緊縮及中央銀行信用管制措施對房地產交易之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中\n華民國 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謝謝趙偉那我們是不是請陳士凱部長請部長部長最近辛苦了但是每一件事情我們都要給他做好是 沒錯我想今天早上大家都很關注就是三峽高齡駕駛肇事的問題那我也非常肯定部長在第一時間昨天有開記者會"},{"start":32.396,"end":60.776,"text":"那有推三支箭希望能夠痛定思痛的來做改變因為事情發生了我們要如何去亡羊補牢讓未來能夠不要再讓這個悲劇重演我想這個是我們執政的責任那這個責任我想要有很多的配套措施雖然你推了三支箭但是每一支箭裡面的一個配套措施我不知道部長"},{"start":61.996,"end":88.891,"text":"未來在這半年內因為這三事件您說要下半年度來執行我們希望115年115年所以115年離現在大概還有半年多的時間那半年多的時間我們如何去盤點如何去找配套又如何規劃時程我覺得需要部長再更進一步的來交代我想國人都在等待這樣子的改革不是只有"},{"start":90.132,"end":104.452,"text":"說一下而是能夠真正的執行到位那我為什麼會特別這樣子講這個歡照年齡要不要下修那部長已經宣布了那我覺得宣布了那我們怎麼做做得好因為過去我也曾經"},{"start":105.533,"end":119.95,"text":"在質詢台上質詢交通部這個換照制度呢這個我們的監察院就曾經糾正過這個高齡駕駛的換照制度沒有全面實施管理只做半套那現在下修的年齡同樣的我們還是有問題要去面對跟解決"},{"start":124.195,"end":146.382,"text":"那如何分階段的來解決管理不要只做半套我覺得這個部長也應該在接下來這半年間好好的跟我們行政單位跟學者專家研議如何的來處理這第一件事第二件事情我們要配套就是要鼓勵要讓我們的高齡駕駛長者對交通駕駛規定"},{"start":151.023,"end":178.272,"text":"規則安全的認知那雖然部長在三字件裡面提到一個對70歲以上自願繳回駕照者提供TPAS的補助那剛剛其他很多委員都在關心的是TPAS是比較類都會或是都會型的高齡者比較會使用的那偏鄉地區我們有很多的不同的多元化的一個交通運具的補助來解決那我希望不是只有這樣子"},{"start":179.332,"end":190.123,"text":"因為更進一步的我必須要提醒部長我們現在TPAS的一個政策成功但是我們並沒有進一步的去盤點運用AI大數據的一個原理去盤點出什麼我們現在的使用者的樣態分析"},{"start":197.608,"end":207.419,"text":"我們現在有的都只是一個大的數據譬如說我爬梳到的台中彰化南投跟苗栗地區從2023年7月1號開始約有48萬人次使用TPAS我們的通勤月票"},{"start":213.166,"end":232.403,"text":"那搭乘客運台鐵捷運等等3900萬人次是優惠搭車的常客我們的爬樹的數據的掌握度直到這裡為止喔在這個48萬人次使用T-pass裡面到底又有多少是屬於高齡者在使用有嗎 我們有這樣的數據嗎"},{"start":236.988,"end":264.831,"text":"這個部分報告委員您的提醒其實應該是要做啦我們把它去識別化之後應該要把整個數據去分析說我們使用的年齡是哪些年齡這個絕對我們現在的技術一定做得到一個一個大數據的一個分析來作為政策的依據或是未來政策的走向這個是本來就是現代的一個行政體系該有的一個做法現在運研所他們有一個專案正在做這件事情"},{"start":266.031,"end":291.277,"text":"運研所的專案都很慢啦部長我現在要求是你們第一個要有效率第二個要運用科技第三個要有分析為依據嘛如果當我們說要做TPAS的一個補助那鼓勵繳回這個高齡者繳回駕照可是你在這之前你完全不知道現在在使用TPAS裡面的高齡者到底有多少使用比例那"},{"start":291.937,"end":295.401,"text":"那你如何去定定未來的補助跟鼓勵那你這半年內做得到嗎"},{"start":302.851,"end":323.544,"text":"應該是可以啦應該是可以好不能說應該是可以是你一定要做到因為你已經宣布了三支鍵了其中一支鍵就是要我即便沒有這個數據這個政策還是可以做得到是好那有數據為依據的話是讓你自己知道說我這樣子補助到底有沒有成效所以第一個如何補助"},{"start":326.218,"end":347.009,"text":"我們是針對T-pass的假設目前他T-pass可能要花一千塊那我們會再補助一定的金額讓他取得T-pass的成本不要這麼高這個部分是我們目前在研議的方向目前在研議的方向就是對於高齡者如果使用T-pass應該要鼓勵他運用公共運輸應該這樣子講就是說不要自己開車啦可以用公車啦、巴士啦、捷運啦"},{"start":355.413,"end":374.899,"text":"台鐵啦 我們就鼓勵他用這個嘛 對不對好 那你鼓勵 那所以說就是第一個金錢上每一位高齡駕駛者的只要申請T-Pass的一個優惠價優惠票價再鼓勵他再讓他 比如說他把它台中的話是299那你可能再給他優惠變成250"},{"start":376.719,"end":399.568,"text":"是這樣的方式嗎?對,是這樣的方式,沒有錯但他必須要繳回駕照,就是不要再開車跟直行車我的意思是說你要把這個第一個三支鍵裡面的每一支鍵裡面的配套還有補助的方式執行的方式我覺得也都要讓國人清楚其實我昨天有說得蠻清楚這個補助的方式可能媒體他寫的那個範圍比較沒有寫到那第二個"},{"start":403.769,"end":413.753,"text":"我認為這個宣導的方式應該要更多元跟生活化我在上一次的質詢的時候就已經提過了就是說上次我還記得這個次長還會有說他爸爸也是高齡駕駛要跟他溝通有時候他很固執說不動那我那時候還跟我們的次長講說那我們要"},{"start":425.538,"end":445.425,"text":"跟長者溝通就要用他們聽得懂的方式跟語言嘛對不對所以我們的宣導方式要多元跟生活化那以我們現在有沒有出去盤點檢討我們現在的宣導的方式那不是死板板的只是在念法條給他聽嘛那譬如說我們助理我們老人家喜歡看什麼"},{"start":447.386,"end":469.618,"text":"那有沒有辦法那個置入行銷是利用生活中的戲劇老人家常接觸的一個管道去置入宣傳我覺得這個是一個必須要用頭腦用心去想的一件事那又比如說我們高齡駕駛未來我們的管理制度裡面是不是針對譬如說五年八年它那無招式"},{"start":471.119,"end":481.891,"text":"無違規那我們是不是有一個表揚類似啦 這個都是你必須去想的一個宣導方式讓高齡者的駕駛對於這個第一個交通規則第二個"},{"start":485.956,"end":507.226,"text":"道路上的行駛的一個安全的一個規則第三個對習慣不良的習慣是不是應該導正第三個在增進他的知能認知的各項的功能方面呢我們都能夠提供一個安全的一個用路的一個環境而且讓他能夠的感知認知能夠做到"},{"start":508.566,"end":525.515,"text":"對不對 部長是 沒有錯委員這個建議都很好 我們都會來參考所以我在拜託啦其實我接下來還有那個標誌標線標誌標線我覺得我簡單講一下啦標誌標線是在交通部1月有提一個這個指引啦但是呢 我們看到1到4月相關的違規"},{"start":527.148,"end":545.613,"text":"建還是增加了25%那第一個為什麼會增加當然是主觀的違規故意的違規我不知道或者是我們自己的標誌標線的一個號誌的一個指引不清我相信網路上大家討論過很多譬如說光是那個紅綠燈號誌的爸爸將"},{"start":547.794,"end":566.586,"text":"大家看不懂那開在路上的時候我的感知認知哪些燈可以左轉哪些是直行又可以左轉哪些那不行那我這裡只舉了五個樣態每一個樣態其實我都不知道這四個燈裡面它的指引方式是什麼那"},{"start":569.076,"end":586.988,"text":"我們雖然已經有指引了 無所適從因為不知道所以我不是故意違規而是因為不知道而被開罰單 而被檢舉這個東西一國多制我是建議部長 你自己可以去看一下你生活中你自己也會開車"},{"start":588.971,"end":615.668,"text":"我只舉一個例子你們自己的一個規則裡面214條禁止圓綠燈跟箭頭綠燈同時顯示但是又允許例外設置所以有的會殺人 有的不會殺人到底誰說了算甚至連警察在判讀的時候都會誤判基層員警理解不一所以導致取締標準不同"},{"start":616.987,"end":631.714,"text":"這個呢其實都是民怨之來源那如果為了我們的交通安全那我們自己的一個設施號誌標線設置設施的這樣子的一個指引我覺得要更明確啦那宣導要更多啦好不好好以上"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1471,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（11時17分）好，謝謝召委，我們是不是請陳世凱部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["何委員欣純：部長好，最近辛苦了！每一件事情我們都要做好。"],["陳部長世凱：是，沒錯。"],["何委員欣純：我想今天早上大家都很關注三峽高齡駕駛肇事的問題，我也非常肯定部長在第一時間，昨天有開記者會，推出三支箭，希望能夠痛定思痛地做改變，因為事情發生，我們要如何亡羊補牢，未來能夠不要再讓悲劇重演，這個是我們執政的責任。這個責任，我想要有很多的配套措施，雖然你推了三支箭，但是每一支箭裡面的配套措施，我不知道部長未來在這半年內，因為這三支箭，您說要下半年度執行……"],["陳部長世凱：我們希望115年開始。"],["何委員欣純：115年離現在大概還有半年多的時間，半年多的時間我們如何去盤點、如何去找配套，又如何規劃時程？我覺得需要部長再更進一步交代。我想國人都在等待這樣子的改革不是只有說一下，而是能夠真正地執行到位，我為什麼會特別這樣子講？換照年齡要不要下修，部長已經宣布，宣布了怎麼做？做得好？因為過去我也曾經在質詢臺上質詢交通部換照制度，監察院就曾經糾正過高齡駕駛的換照制度，沒有全面實施，管理只做半套。現在下修了年齡，同樣的我們還是有問題要去面對跟解決。如何分階段的解決，管理不要只做半套？我覺得部長也應該在接下來這半年間，好好的跟行政單位、學者專家研議如何處理。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["何委員欣純：這是第一件事。第二件事情，我們要配套，就是要鼓勵我們的高齡駕駛長者對交通駕駛規定、規則安全的認知。雖然部長在三支箭裡面有提到，對70歲以上自願繳回駕照者提供TPASS的補助。剛剛很多委員都在關心的TPASS，是比較類都會或是都會型的高齡者比較會使用的，偏鄉地區有很多不同的、多元化的交通運具的補助來解決，我希望不是只有這樣子，因為更進一步的，我必須要提醒部長，我們現在TPASS的政策成功，但是我們並沒有進一步盤點，運用AI大數據的原理去盤點出什麼？現在使用者的樣態分析，現在有的都只是大的數據，譬如說我爬梳到的，臺中、彰化、南投跟苗栗地區從2023 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主席我們請交通部陳部長請部長部長早部長我想大家還是非常關注昨天前兩天發生的意外 昨天也有一起在這個台南也發生類似的這個爆衝的狀況所以這個行車安全跟行人安全的部分都是本席上任以來也非常關注 那當時我也記得你當"},{"start":33.743,"end":53.58,"text":"剛剛擔任部長的時候我也期許說我們人本交通能夠作為你部長任的一個重要的政績我們先看一張圖 這個是我在一個臉書叫行路無虎口看到的一個圖 剛好在回應這個新的事件那這是一個瑞士氣死理論你看到其實昨天會發生 前兩天會發生這個78歲的高齡駕駛衝撞"},{"start":57.965,"end":78.724,"text":"針對性的衝撞不管是這個學童也好還是這個機車駕駛人也好它是一連串的失誤發生導致了這樣的結果那包含說我們現在對駕駛人們迴避的制度那嚴重違規有沒有要太處還有高齡駕駛怎麼管理跟學區道路安全設施每一項每一項我想在不同的單位質詢的時候大家都提過"},{"start":79.505,"end":97.105,"text":"相關的建議跟概念但就是可能是每一個段落都有點缺失缺失缺失最後導致了這個三峽事件的結果那我們回到今天討論一個主題想大家現在關注所謂的高齡駕駛管理因為部長你昨天提到要從75歲降到70歲那我們看到各國的標準"},{"start":99.773,"end":121.158,"text":"我想你參考的日本的標準是從70歲開始訂那各國當然都有不同的標準我想韓國 新加坡 英國 義大利等等大家都有不同的標準跟規範那義大利比較嚴格它從50歲設為一個區間50到70 70到80 80以上等等的那我們現在好像是只是針對目前是75以上那當然你說要改到70以上這部分我"},{"start":121.638,"end":138.688,"text":"我對年齡本身沒有太大的意見要70歲 75歲 65歲 60歲都可以但我比較有意見的是什麼是針對這個換照的規定部長你很清楚現在不管75歲或是你要把他下修到70歲他換照的這個標準我們看現狀就好我們看現狀這個認知測驗"},{"start":146.004,"end":171.86,"text":"基本上我也做了一下測試認識測驗部長很清楚嘛基本上就是問你今天幾月幾號星期幾你在哪裡然後再來就是問十張圖記得三張圖就可以了然後最後畫一張這個我畫得比較醜啦就是畫個時鐘嘛就這樣然後就通過了我想對太醜了對不起畫得比較醜但是這我認識是沒問題的所以這樣我就能夠取得所謂的70現在是75歲未來70歲的這個駕照我就能夠取得駕照繼續開車"},{"start":176.041,"end":199.167,"text":"那我昨天 前兩天發生的事情之後我想這兩天我也收到很多的陳情 很多的中年子女來跟我陳情說他們希望我們在換照制度上能夠更確實就如同他們 他們也陪他們父母去做這個測試啊有些子女是不同意 不希望他的爸媽七八十歲還去開車"},{"start":200.933,"end":217.102,"text":"那這個爸爸媽媽會跟他講說啊 夠膽就給我架腳啊我就通過了啊我就開開心心的上路我就大大方方的上路我加上是取得我是換照取得的但是因為他們有參與到這個過程就是去測試這個過程所以他們知道說這個測試就只做這些測驗"},{"start":220.024,"end":242.046,"text":"連新的交通法規包括我們現在強調行人優先人們交通就是文化的問題不管是法規問題還是相關的文化問題並沒有在重新換照的過程裡面讓他重新去受到訓練受到教育他就只是把這個認識我確定他沒有失智確定他有基本的辨識能力他的體檢沒有什麼太大問題那就讓他上路了所以不知道部長這個"},{"start":243.487,"end":260.707,"text":"你把70歲降到70歲這部分我沒有什麼太大意義但是問題是這個內容未來要不要調整還是要怎麼調整這個部分我其實昨天的記者會說明當中也有報告過這個部分我們會來做調整包含他的認知功能測驗的內容還有再加上危險感知的能力的測驗這個也會加進來"},{"start":262.549,"end":283.656,"text":"那另外就是針對他的四肢的靈活度這個也會加進來那另外委員您剛剛有提到就是說有沒有需要再重新訓練我們也會把講習加進來至少要參加半天的這個交通安全的講習的訓練也就是說他駕駛能力的訓練必須要把它強固起來那這個部分在未來的修正當中都會來加入"},{"start":284.264,"end":301.457,"text":"我昨天看到你講的說比如說重新駕駛重新入考訓練等等是針對可能有肇事紀錄的人對有肇事紀錄的就必須要實地訓練我們會實地訓練就是讓他實際上開車然後我們的考官也好或者訓練官也好就會在旁邊看他實際開車的狀況"},{"start":303.118,"end":320.638,"text":"那我這個換照的部分 我想問說今天換照的部分是對這個高齡駕駛 不管是定70歲還是後來會修正系數或怎麼樣所謂的重新換照 它是重新 就像我們重新考 就像我們當年18歲考駕照一樣嘛它是一個重新開始的做法 它是只是針對這幾項 通過之後就可以"},{"start":322.58,"end":334.954,"text":"我還要講其實真的到七八十歲他重新拿駕照的時候他的法規不是全面重考啦不是全面重考就是我們所訂的那幾項測驗他必須要通過他必須要通過通過了之後我們就會給他駕照"},{"start":335.851,"end":362.064,"text":"那你們什麼時候會提出大家關心時程嗎三個月之後我們會來提出好那我們先等你提出來我們再來看怎麼檢討啦那回到這除了個人之外我想很多是政府的工程面我們之前 包含我們之前也提到了包含說緩速坡或是說行人穿越道等等的這部分我們在其他的業務質詢裡面也都提到如果學區附近有所謂的緩速坡那可能以三峽的事情為例即便它是蓄意的"},{"start":363.164,"end":377.375,"text":"可能它造成的傷害也不會這麼嚴重所以到底什麼時候才要真正的把所謂的緩速波 減速波把它列入法規裡面這之前有問過了現在國土署他們有跟有訂新的方案因為其實地方政府"},{"start":378.135,"end":398.781,"text":"做這個通學步道的部分跟通學道的部分他們的申請的那個經費是來自於國土署那國土署現在已經有把這個列為是重要的項目他們必須要把這個設計進來列為他們未來願不願意補助或補助多少的一個標準我們希望這個是把它列到法規啦不要說只是說這個政策現在"},{"start":400.323,"end":419.142,"text":"陳部長支持 隔壁劉部長支持所以我們就做那未來如果萬一其他人上來當部長或其他人當局長的時候這個東西就不了了之了所以我們就要把它入法有一個指引那主要在市區裡面主管是地方政府那國土署是協助他們補助的部分當然交通部也會補助一部分"},{"start":420.023,"end":440.416,"text":"那這個部分其實我們三個單位必須要大家來協商來協議那我們也會盡量說服並且要求他們在物理上面的防範的作為要再更加強那我所知道的是內政部國土組他們已經有在研商這件事情那希望未來更有強制力地方政府有一個可以依循的方向"},{"start":441.356,"end":468.861,"text":"這要盡快 最後一分鐘 剩下最後一分鐘而已來 剛剛講的這些都是物理的問題還有一個就是針對車輛本身美國這兩天之前有發布一個規定說2029年他們說銷售車輛必須配備所謂的自動緊急煞車系統當然現在市售有些車子他們已經標榜說這個有自動緊急煞車的功能了所以它可能價格稍微再高一點但是美國是有直接另一個法規是2029年他們所有市售車輛都要往這個方向來推進"},{"start":469.761,"end":484.313,"text":"那這個可能就能夠完完全全的去解決這種蓄意的因為我們剛剛我們現在訂的所有法規都是針對正常的一般的普通的狀況但昨天那個前幾天那個事情看起來很像蓄意但我沒有證據只是說假設有人蓄意要衝撞的"},{"start":485.054,"end":501.123,"text":"或是上個月發生在其他城市那種蓄力衝撞的那種衝撞路人的這種行為如果今天車輛每個車輛他都有裝所謂的自動警察的系統的話他是不是就有機會在物理上科技上來避免這事情發生我不知道我國有沒有去考慮參考美國的意見去做這樣的"},{"start":502.123,"end":518.493,"text":"報告委員其實我們現在的新車我們跟歐盟的規範是一樣的在民國112年開始我們對於新車的這些安全的科技的規範有一定的要求這個部分其實已經有放進去所以現在我看大部分的新車應該車上都有這樣的設備了我說自動緊急煞車"},{"start":520.861,"end":532.082,"text":"自動緊急煞車當然偵測沒問題吧就是我雷達或什麼會嗶嗶嗶的那今天如果有人刻意的去做這個事情他的車輛本身有沒有自動緊急煞車系統能夠做呢"},{"start":534.666,"end":556.493,"text":"車輛技術都是日新月異在這個發展那這個法規也在發展那有關於AEBS的部分在聯合國法規裡面先大車或小車那大車我們導入那小車現在正在導入跟這個歐盟的這個規範是一致的我們希望盡快納入因為我是覺得別的國家既然有這個參考又有這個時程表出來了那我們是不是也能夠快點訂出相關的時程表跟法規好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1435,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時7分）謝謝主席。主席，我們請交通部陳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長早。部長，我想大家還是非常關注前兩天發生的意外，包含昨天也有一起，在臺南也發生類似暴衝的狀況，所以行車安全跟行人安全的部分，一直都是本席上任以來非常關注的，當時我也記得你剛擔任部長的時候，我也期許我們的人本交通能夠作為你部長任內一個重要的政績。","我們先看這是我在一個臉書上叫「行路無虎口」所看到的圖，剛好在回應新的事件，這是一個瑞士起司理論，其實前兩天會發生78歲的高齡駕駛針對性的衝撞，不管是學童也好，還是機車駕駛人也好，他是一連串的失誤發生導致這樣的結果，包含我們現在對駕駛人有沒有回訓的制度，嚴重違規有沒有要汰除，還有高齡駕駛怎麼管理，跟學區道路安全設施。我想每一項在不同單位質詢的時候，大家都提過相關的建議跟概念，但是可能每個段落都有點缺失、缺失、缺失，最後導致了三峽事件的結果。","我們回到今天討論的主題，大家現在關注所謂的高齡駕駛管理。部長，你昨天提到要從75歲降到70歲，我們看到各國的標準，我想你參考了日本的標準從70歲開始訂，各國當然都有不同的標準，我想韓國、新加坡、英國、義大利等等，大家都有不同的標準跟規範。義大利比較嚴格，它從50歲設為一個區間，50到70、70到80、80以上等等的，我們現在好像是只是針對75以上，當然你說要改到70以上，這部分我對年齡本身沒有太大的意見，要70歲、75歲、65歲、60歲都可以，但我比較有意見的是什麼？是針對換照的規定。部長，你很清楚現在不管75歲，或是你要把它下修到70歲，我們看現狀換照的標準就好，認知測驗，基本上我也做了一下測試，部長清楚嘛，基本上就是問你今天幾月幾號星期幾、你在哪裡，再來就是問10張圖，記得3張圖就可以了，最後畫一張圖，這個我畫得比較醜，就是畫個時鐘，就這樣，然後就通過了。但是這表示我的認知是沒問題的，所以我就能夠取得現在是75歲，未來70歲的駕照繼續開車。前兩天發生事情之後，這兩天我也收到很多陳情，很多中年子女來跟我陳情，說他們希望我們在換照制度上能夠更確實，他們也會陪他們父母去做這個測試。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員健豪：有些子女不同意、不希望他的爸媽七、八十歲還去開車，爸爸媽媽會跟他說，國家給我考駕照，我就通過了，我就開開心心的上路、我就大大方方的上路，我駕照是換照取得的。但是因為他們有參與測試的過程，所以他們知道說，測試就只做這些測驗，連新的交通法規，包含我們現在強調行人優先、人本交通，這些文化的問題，不管是法規問題還是相關的文化問題，並沒有在重新換照的過程裡面，讓他重新受到訓練、受到教育，就只是把這個認知……確定他沒有失智、確定他有基本的辨識能力、他的體檢沒有什麼太大問題，就讓他上路了。所以不知道部長，你把75歲降到70歲，我沒有什麼太大的意見，但問題是這個內容未來要不要調整？還是要怎麼調整？"],["陳部長世凱：其實昨天記者會說明當中我也有報告過，這個部分我會調整，包含認知功能測驗的內容，還有再加上危險感知能力的測驗也會加進來；針對他的四肢靈活度也會加進來。另外，委員剛剛有提到，有沒有需要再重新訓練？我們也會把講習加進來，至少要參加半天的交通安全講習訓練。也就是說，駕駛能力的訓練必須要把它強固起來，這個部分在未來的修正當中都會加入。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，我昨天看到你說，比如重新路考訓練等等，是針對可能有肇事紀錄的人。"],["陳部長世凱：對，有肇事紀錄的就必須要實地訓練，我們會實地訓練，就是讓他實際上開車，然後我們的考官也好，或者是訓練官也好，就會在旁邊看他實際開車的狀況。"],["黃委員健豪：我想問今天換照的部分是對高齡駕駛，不管是定75歲，還是未來會修正70或怎麼樣，所謂的重新換照，就像我們當年18歲考駕照一樣，是一個重新開始的作法，還是只是針對這幾項通過就可以？我還是要講，其實真的到七、八十歲重新拿駕照的時候，他的法規……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，不是全面重考，是我們所訂的那幾項測驗，他必須要通過，通過了之後我們就會給他駕照。"],["黃委員健豪：那你們什麼時候會提出？大家關心時程。"],["陳部長世凱：3個月之後我們會提出。"],["黃委員健豪：好，我們先等你提出來，再來看怎麼檢討。"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["黃委員健豪：除了個人之外，我想很多是政府的工程面，我們之前也提到了，包含緩速坡或行人穿越道等等，這部分我們在其他業務質詢裡面都提到，如果學區附近有所謂的緩速坡，以三峽的事情為例，即便他是蓄意的，可能他造成的傷害也不會這麼嚴重。到底什麼時候才要真正的把所謂的緩速坡、減速坡列入法規裡面？這之前也問過了。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，現在國土署有訂新的方案，其實地方政府做通學步道跟通學道的部分，他們申請的經費是來自國土署，國土署現在已經有把這個列為重要的項目，他們必須要把這個設計進來，列為國土署未來願不願意補助或補助多少的一個標準。"],["黃委員健豪：我們希望是列到法規，不要只是政策，現在陳部長支持、隔壁劉部長支持，所以我們就做，未來萬一其他人上來當部長或其他人當局長的時候，這個東西就不了了之了，所以我們需要把它入法。"],["陳部長世凱：我們目前有一個指引，主要在市區裡面，主管是地方政府，國土署是協助他們補助的部分，當然交通部也會補助一部分，這個部分其實我們三個單位必須要大家來協商、協議，我們也會儘量說服，並且要求他們在物理上面防範的作為要再更加強。我所知道的是，內政部國土署已經有在研商這件事情，希望未來更有強制力，地方政府有一個可以依循的方向。"],["黃委員健豪：好，這要儘快。最後一分鐘，剛剛講的這些都是物理的問題，還有一個針對車輛本身。美國之前有發布一個規定，說2029年銷售車輛必須配備自動緊急煞車系統，當然現在市售有些車子已經標榜有自動緊急煞車的功能，所以可能價格稍微再高一點。但是美國有直接訂一個法規，2029年他們所有市售車輛都要往這個方向推進，這個可能就能夠完完全全解決這種蓄意的。我們現在訂的所有法規都是針對正常的、一般普通狀況。前幾天的事情看起來很像蓄意，但我沒有證據，只是假設有人蓄意要衝撞，或是上個月發生在其他城市那種蓄意衝撞路人的行為。如果今天每個車輛都有裝的自動緊急煞車系統的話，是不是就有機會在物理上、科技上避免這事情發生？我不知道我國有沒有考慮參考美國的意見，做這樣的變更？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實我們現在的新車，我們跟歐盟的規範是一樣的，在民國112年開始，我們對於新車安全科技的規範有一定的要求，這個部分其實已經有放進去，現在我看大部分的新車應該都有這樣的設備。"],["黃委員健豪：我說自動緊急煞車。"],["陳部長世凱：自動緊急煞車……"],["黃委員健豪：當然偵測沒問題，就是雷達或什麼會嗶嗶嗶嗶。"],["陳部長世凱：ADAS系統其實都有加裝了。"],["黃委員健豪：今天如果有人刻意去做這個事情，車輛本身有沒有自動緊急煞車系統能夠做呢？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，車輛技術都是日新月益在發展，法規也在發展，有關於AEBS的部分，在聯合國法規裡面，先大車後小車，大車我們已經導入；小車現在正在導入，跟歐盟的規範是一致的。"],["黃委員健豪：我們希望儘快納入，因為我是覺得別的國家既然有參考，也有時程表出來，我們是不是也能夠快點訂出相關的時程表跟法規，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們請何欣純委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":414,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-12","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","李昆澤","傅崐萁","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","廖先翔","黃健豪","何欣純","蔡其昌","徐富癸","邱若華","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 那請我們次長次長好"},{"start":20.239,"end":40.221,"text":"那在上個禮拜那個凱開案宣判了嘛那當然我們也知道我們大家現在社會對孽童案的重視那對於這個主要保母主要照顧的保母宣判無期徒刑那妹妹被判處18年那以現行法條來講也算是重判"},{"start":40.922,"end":51.391,"text":"那表示司法跟社會現在對於孽童案這個行為大家都是不能接受而且法務部目前也在研議加重孽童的相關刑責"},{"start":54.249,"end":81.773,"text":"除了凱開案之外我們在上週也有發生基隆的額虐案那這些案子我們發現它有一個共同點這些額虐案的共同點就是其實它前面早就有跡可循所以市長你有沒有覺得其實如果它有跡可循那是不是其實我們在這之前就應該有機會預防所以是不是預防重於治療我同意委員的說法"},{"start":82.848,"end":94.306,"text":"對 所以在這部分之前有跡可循那是不是在我們仿飾員 仿飾端這部分我們沒有做到確切的仿飾"},{"start":96.218,"end":117.7,"text":"訪市的這個規範事實上在地方政府的規定那當然我們也針對了就是在凱凱案發生之後我們有針對這一個訪市的分級去做一個要求因為有些他可能比較單純有些可能是脆弱的脆弱狀況或特殊儲育跟出養童的情形所以我們去年有針對這一個做了一個"},{"start":119.281,"end":134.019,"text":"仿式指引的分级那我们去年公告的仿式指引也就是说假设他第一个事情是他在这个仿式的过程中他要严谨的来做一个仿式跟辅导另外的话他要采取不预约而且安排不同的时段去仿式"},{"start":135.06,"end":154.705,"text":"那這個才比較能夠看到他真實的狀況另外的話就是針對特殊需求譬如說他是發展遲緩的兒童出洋的兒童家外的安置兒童或收拖任何一個兒童已有照顧風險或持續有受傷的情況的話那我們請地方或是地方的這個社會局要增加他的訪視次數那是他的特殊情況可以再增加"},{"start":155.365,"end":173.515,"text":"對啊當然所以我們一直也來對於這個社會安全網對於我們社工的部分除了要增加這個人員之外就是要把這個訪視的次數增加那如果既然有跡可循就要持續來追蹤所以我們除了訪視端的不足我們發現像凱凱案來講"},{"start":175.996,"end":205.195,"text":"其實這個監督面我們也覺得是失能那我想請問一下我們這監督制度建立的設立的目的是什麼等一下跟我們報告就是說在內部它本來這個凱凱案的話它是在文山區這一邊的居托中心那台北市政府是有委託民間團體來進行這個他們的居托中心的監督那這個部分我是不是請同仁來報告一下"},{"start":206.078,"end":219.714,"text":"對 其實這剛剛我大概有了解我們台北市政府就是委託新北市大愛關懷協會然後再請我們文山區居託中心去聘請 找這個保姆"},{"start":224.103,"end":249.819,"text":"對 文山居托中心他是負責管理這個保姆保姆嘛 對啊所以他找這個保姆去轉介嘛由兒扶中心去轉介是不是保姆是由兒盟自己去找到的這個保姆對 所以這個保姆他找到以後去照顧這個凱開嘛那我們 我要問的是不是我們這個監督他制度他監督的功能是什麼"},{"start":251.007,"end":267.973,"text":"這個監督的機制應該是第一個它是兒蒙找到了台北市的這個保姆那這個保姆是由文山拘托中心來負責管理那文山拘托中心是由台北市政府他委託了新北市大愛關懷協會來承接這個拘托中心所以"},{"start":269.341,"end":287.681,"text":"所以这个新北市的大爱关怀协会应该要来督导跟监督跟管理这些保姆对啊所以他有聘请这个督导嘛然后刚有了解一下你们督导又有分内部督导跟外部督导对我们督导有分内部督导跟外部督导那他差别在哪里他的权责呢"},{"start":288.421,"end":314.815,"text":"內部督導應該督導的功能大概有教育跟行政跟支持那內部的督導大概是包括他內部的這個處理個案的這些流程這些行政的事務這些都應該是內部督導要處理的那外部督導他比較多的功能應該是教育或者是支持因為社工在處理個案的時候可能這個家庭是非常複雜的可能在專業職能上面是需要有一些外部督導來做一些協助"},{"start":315.737,"end":344.973,"text":"所以他外部督導的功能我據我了解他有包括就是我們這些訪視員訪視回來他要檢視他的訪員的記錄嗎這個比較多應該會是內部督導的職責跟責任因為個案記錄是每天他只要去訪視就會有個案記錄的那外部督導通常是一段時間才會來一次所以內部督導應該是個案記錄檢視會比較多的責任是在內部督導他要做的事情"},{"start":346.417,"end":365.549,"text":"所以我剛剛講說這個檢視訪源記錄還有我再瞭解一下好像他也要確認保護案件的處理前線這些都是內部做的嗎外部不需要做嗎就是說第一個內部督導他應該是所有的管理剛剛有提到的管理的所有的責任應該比較多會是內部督導"},{"start":366.169,"end":382.117,"text":"那另外一個單位他要請外部督導通常他們會就議題來處理譬如說他可能是需要一些專業知識譬如說我們這一次想要對於兒寶的知識要了解或者是兒女的知識要了解比較會是主題式的"},{"start":383.655,"end":398.415,"text":"所以據我們了解我看你們的報告剛剛那個也有委員提到你們外部督導真的好像不是督導感覺真的好像是顧問然後有事情再來問他這個設定好像跟督導的設定這個"},{"start":400.157,"end":427.693,"text":"好像不太一樣我們事實上就是在本來內部制度就應該要有督導的制度那外督這邊他其實是來提供原來系統內部如果遇到比較複雜的個案那他在原有制度之外要提供他的知能他的能力或者是幫他尋求更多的這個資源的情況之下由外督來協助那外部督導他是主導還是被動外部督導的主要是由這個機構他有需求的時候來尋求外部督導"},{"start":428.624,"end":441.13,"text":"所以我說聽起來像顧問嘛有問題才去問比較是這個他來提供原來在制度內在機構內部的這個訪視員或者是社工知識能力或資源上面的加強"},{"start":442.369,"end":461.549,"text":"那所以你內部這幾乎來講督導的工作幾乎照你們來講應該都是內部督導在做我們希望內部督導的這個職責能夠落實而且他才是原來的有這個跟原來機構之間有指揮監督的關係所以所以你們的報告寫的意思就是外部督導其實"},{"start":464.054,"end":475.583,"text":"幾乎就不像督導真的就像我們講的就是顧問他雖然叫做督導不過事實上外督主要的角色是支持協助教育原來在系統內部的這些社工或者是我們的訪師輔導員所以這個凱開案跟這個"},{"start":479.426,"end":500.019,"text":"基隆兒孽案的發生我們真的是希望像你在訪視員去訪視的時候其實很多事情都已經有跡可循然後你像基隆兒孽案當初他就有通報說這個父親就不適合跟這個小孩子在一起那時候是不是說已經去申請保護令"},{"start":502.496,"end":526.179,"text":"基隆額虐它的起因是夫妻的親密關係出問題是離婚案件所導致以孩子作為報復手段的一個額虐所以結果看起來是額虐事實上它是離婚案件所以前面其實那個時候反思的時候就有一些跡象嘛孩子跟父親的關係在過去沒有任何衝突"},{"start":527.259,"end":537.01,"text":"所以同時也會降低所有網絡人員對孩子安全上的一個敏感度的確如果沒有訪視的時候沒有發現有一些問題他幹嘛要申請保護鏈"},{"start":540.95,"end":567.287,"text":"他的保護令是申請媽媽對爸爸就是這個這個岸夫跟岸母他是因為要離婚夫妻之間產生衝突所以媽媽去申請對先生的這個禁止施暴的保護令並沒有申請孩子的遠離這個父親的保護令所以前面是沒有發現小孩子跟父親可是這父親不是那時候說有一些暴力傾向嗎他是對太太"},{"start":568.351,"end":573.094,"text":"是他是對太太是因為夫妻關係感情不好因為這個相處的一些問題包括他們的家務分工還有他們的這個生活費的一些支付然後長久有一些觀念不一致然後導致媽媽有打算要離婚也聘了律師處理這個離婚事件所引發的這個額虐"},{"start":594.125,"end":611.219,"text":"所以我覺得這還是有一些疏失啦那對太太都有暴力傾向那離婚以後太太不在那她是不是就轉介到小孩子身上是 如果按照常理通常法院在裁判離婚的時候會針對孩子的監護權做另做處理"},{"start":612.85,"end":635.878,"text":"所以這邊我們今天希望針對這些額內跟凱凱的事件預防重疑治療這個訪視一定要加強這訪視居然有一些跡象我們就要加強訪視而且我們今天了解以後發現我們督導這個制度內部外部其實都不是很明確那當然今天"},{"start":636.798,"end":659.547,"text":"我是覺得針對外部督導的部分我們衛福部有一點避重就輕啦但是重點我們並不是說今天一定要去追究誰的責任而是覺得這個權責真的要分得很清楚那如果照我們今天衛福部今天所說明的其實這個督導制度好像"},{"start":660.387,"end":672.447,"text":"所有督導的責任幾乎都放在內部那外部督導根本只是流於形式而且蔣時代根本就是一個顧問職的根本沒有真正落實外部督導應盡的責任啊"},{"start":673.972,"end":690.166,"text":"我們會全力來希望就是制度內能夠好好的運作那當然外部督導這邊我們另外是協助就是說他是六人以下本身機構這個配置比較小的機構我們來協助他們有一個外督來協助原來沒有辦法有內督的情形"},{"start":690.902,"end":719.895,"text":"對啊而且其實據我們了解這督導他的重要的工作就是檢視訪人的紀錄跟確認保護案件的處理情形所以這督導一定要針對訪視員去訪視以後那督導他本來他就是比較專業那針對你訪視回來這些問題或許訪視員沒有發現就像你說對老婆有暴力傾向那督導就應該要去注意他對老婆會有這暴力傾向那離婚之後"},{"start":720.595,"end":738.546,"text":"他就有可能對小孩子發生這樣的事情那你督導就是比較專業姑且不論你內部外部督導的權責怎麼樣那我覺得今天督導這個責任應該要發揮他的專業領域去好好去對於這個處理的情形要好好落實去做"},{"start":739.795,"end":754.781,"text":"所以希望我們需要這個全責一定要劃分清楚而且我覺得內部外部真的要好好規範一下照今天這樣講起來督導好像都是內部督導的責任外部督導乾脆就改成顧問就好了"},{"start":755.761,"end":773.495,"text":"如果照我们今天的报告这样来写我是感觉是不是避重就轻但是我们希望事情发生了看如何去补救权责怎么去处理访事一定要确切那督导后续的工作处理情形一定要落实来追踪谢委员指导好谢谢谢谢市长"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":707,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（11時2分）謝謝主席，請次長。"],["林次長靜儀：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：次長好。上個禮拜剴剴案宣判了，當然我們也知道大家現在社會對虐童案的重視，對於這個主要照顧的保母宣判無期徒刑，妹妹被判處18年，以現行法條來講，也算是重判，表示司法跟社會現在對於虐童案這個行為，大家都是不能接受，而且法務部目前也在研議加重虐童的相關刑責。除了剴剴案之外，在上週也有發生基隆的兒虐案，這些兒虐案我們發現有一個共同點，其實他前面早就有跡可循，所以次長，你會不會覺得如果他有跡可循，是不是我們在這之前就應該有機會預防，是不是預防重於治療？"],["林次長靜儀：我同意委員的說法。"],["涂委員權吉：如果之前有跡可循，那是不是在我們訪視員訪視端這部分，我們沒有做到確切的訪視？"],["林次長靜儀：訪視的規範事實上在地方政府的規定。在剴剴案發生之後，我們也針對訪視的分級去做一個要求，因為有些他可能比較單純，有些可能是脆弱狀況，或特殊處遇跟出養童的情形，所以我們去年有針對這個做了訪視指引的分級，關於我們去年公告的訪視指引，第一個事情，在他訪視的過程中，他要嚴謹的來做訪視跟輔導，另外，他要採取不預約而且安排不同的時段去訪視，這才比較能夠看到他真實的狀況。另外，就是針對特殊需求，譬如說，他是發展遲緩的兒童、出養的兒童、家外的安置兒童，或收託任何一個兒童已有照顧風險或持續有受傷的情況的話，我們請地方的社會局要增加他的訪視次數，視他的特殊情況可以再增加。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊，所以我們一直以來對於社會安全網、對社工的部分，除了要增加人員之外，就是要把訪視的次數增加，既然有跡可循，就要持續來追蹤。我們除了訪視端的不足，我們發現像剴剴案來講，這個監督面我們也覺得失能，我想請問一下，我們監督制度設立的目的是什麼？"],["林次長靜儀：跟委員報告，在內部，剴剴案是在文山區這邊的居托中心，臺北市政府是有委託民間團體來進行他們居托中心的監督，這個部分我是不是請同仁來報告一下？"],["涂委員權吉：對，其實這我大概有了解，臺北市政府就是委託新北市大愛關懷協會，再請文山居托中心去聘請這個保母？"],["張副署長美美：對，文山居托中心是負責管理保母的單位。"],["涂委員權吉：保母嘛？"],["張副署長美美：對。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊，所以由兒福中心去轉介這個保母，是不是？"],["張副署長美美：這個保母是由兒盟自己去找到的。"],["涂委員權吉：對，他找到這個保母去照顧剴剴，那我要問的是，他監督的功能是什麼？"],["張副署長美美：這個監督的機制應該是……第一個，兒盟找到了臺北市的這個保母，這個保母是由文山居托中心來負責管理，文山居托中心是由臺北市政府委託了新北市大愛關懷協會來承接這個居托中心，所以新北市的大愛關懷協會應該要來督導、監督、管理這些保母。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊，所以他有聘請督導，然後我剛剛有了解一下，你們督導有分內部督導跟外部督導，是不是？"],["張副署長美美：對，我們督導有分內部督導跟外部督導。"],["涂委員權吉：差別在哪裡？他的權責呢？"],["張副署長美美：督導的功能大概有教育、行政跟支持，內部的督導包括內部處理個案的流程、行政的事務，這些都應該是內部督導要處理的；外部督導比較多的功能應該是教育或是支持，因為社工在處理個案的時候，可能這個家庭是非常複雜的，可能在專業知能上面需要有一些外部督導來做一些協助。"],["涂委員權吉：據我了解，外部督導的功能包括這些訪視員訪視回來要檢視訪員的紀錄嘛？"],["張副署長美美：這個比較多應該會是內部督導的職責跟責任，因為個案紀錄是每天他只要去訪視就會有個案紀錄，那外部督導通常是一段時間才會來一次，所以內部督導應該是個案紀錄的檢視，比較多的責任是在內部督導他要做的事情。"],["涂委員權吉：我剛講說檢視訪員紀錄，還有我再了解一下，好像他也要確認保護案件的處理情形，這些都是內部做的嗎？外部不需要做嗎？"],["張副署長美美：第一個剛剛有提到了，所有管理的責任比較多會是內部督導，另外單位要請外部督導，通常他們會就議題來處理，例如他可能需要一些專業知識，譬如我們這次想要對於兒保的知識要了解，或是兒虐的知識要了解，比較會是主題式的。"],["涂委員權吉：據我們了解，我看你們的報告，剛剛也有委員提到，你們外部督導好像真的不是督導，感覺真的好像是顧問，有事情再來問他，這個跟督導的設立好像不太一樣。"],["林次長靜儀：事實上，本來內部制度就應該要有督導的制度，那外部督導是來提供原來系統內部如果遇到比較複雜的個案，在原有制度之外要提供他的知能、能力或是幫他尋求更多資源的情況之下，由外督來協助。"],["涂委員權吉：外部督導是主動還是被動？"],["林次長靜儀：外部督導主要是由這個機構有需求的時候來尋求外部督導。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我說聽起來像顧問，有問題才去問他。"],["林次長靜儀：比較是由他來提供原來機構內部的訪視員或是社工在知識能力或資源上面的加強。"],["涂委員權吉：照你們講的，督導的工作幾乎都是內部督導在做？"],["林次長靜儀：我們希望內部督導的職責能夠落實，而且他才是跟原來機構之間有指揮監督的關係。"],["涂委員權吉：所以你們的報告寫的意思就是說，外部督導其實幾乎就不像督導，真的就像我們講的就是顧問。"],["林次長靜儀：他雖然叫做督導，不過事實上，外督主要的角色是支持及協助教育原來在系統內部的這些社工，或者是我們的訪視輔導員。"],["涂委員權吉：關於剴剴案跟基隆兒虐案的發生，我們真的希望你們訪視員去訪視的時候，其實很多事情都已經有跡可循，像基隆兒虐案，當初他就有通報說，這位父親就不適合跟這個小孩子在一起，那時候是不是已經申請保護令？"],["張司長秀鴛：基隆兒虐的起因是夫妻的親密關係出問題，是離婚案件所導致，以孩子作為報復手段的兒虐案件，所以結果看起來是兒虐，事實上，它是離婚案件。"],["涂委員權吉：所以前面訪視的時候，就有一些跡象了嘛！"],["張司長秀鴛：孩子跟父親的關係在過去沒有任何衝突，所以同時也會降低所有網絡人員對孩子安全上的一個敏感度。"],["涂委員權吉：如果沒有訪視的時候，沒有發現有一些問題，他幹嘛要申請保護令？"],["張司長秀鴛：他申請的保護令是媽媽對爸爸，就是案父跟案母因為要離婚，夫妻之間產生衝突，所以媽媽去申請對先生的禁止施暴的保護令，並沒有申請孩子遠離父親的保護令。"],["涂委員權吉：所以前面沒有發現小孩子跟父親的問題，可是這父親不是那時候說有一些暴力傾向嗎？"],["張司長秀鴛：他是對太太，因為是夫妻關係感情不好、相處的一些問題，包括他們的家務分工還有生活費的一些支付，然後長久有一些觀念不一致，導致媽媽有打算要離婚，也聘了律師處理這個離婚事件所引發的兒虐。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我覺得這還是有一些疏失啦！對太太都有暴力傾向，離婚以後太太不在，他是不是就轉介到小孩子身上？"],["張司長秀鴛：是，如果按照常理，通常法院在裁判離婚的時候，針對孩子的監護權會另做處理。"],["涂委員權吉：我們今天希望針對這些兒虐跟剴剴的事件，預防重於治療，這個訪視一定要加強，這訪視居然有一些跡象，我們就要加強訪視，而且我們今天了解以後，發現我們督導的制度在內部、外部其實都不是很明確；今天我是覺得針對外部督導的部分，你們衛福部有一點避重就輕，但是重點，我們並不是說今天一定要去追究誰的責任，而是覺得這個權責真的要分得很清楚，如果照衛福部今天所說明的督導制度，好像所有督導的責任幾乎都放在內部，外部督導根本只是流於形式，而且講實在根本就是一個顧問職的，根本沒有真正落實外部督導應盡的責任。"],["林次長靜儀：我們會全力來讓制度內能夠好好的運作，當然外部督導這邊我們另外來協助，就是它是六人以下、本身配置比較小的機構，我們來協助他們有一個外督來協助原來沒有辦法有內督的情形。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！而且據我們了解，這督導的重要工作就是檢視訪員的紀錄跟確認保護案件的處理情形，所以這督導一定要針對訪視員去訪視以後，督導本來就是比較專業，針對訪視回來這些問題或許訪視員沒有發現，就像你說對老婆有暴力傾向，督導就應該要去注意啊！他對老婆會有這種暴力傾向，在離婚之後，就有可能對小孩子發生這樣的事情，督導就是比較專業，姑且不論內部及外部督導的權責怎麼樣，我覺得今天督導的責任應該要發揮它的專業領域，對於這個處理的情形也要好好落實去做，所以希望這個權責一定要劃分清楚，而且內部及外部真的要好好規範一下，照今天這樣講起來，督導好像都是內部督導的責任，外部督導乾脆就改成顧問就好了啦！如果照你們今天的報告說明，我是感覺是不是有避重就輕？但是還是希望事情發生了看如何去補救？權責怎麼去處理？訪視一定要確切，督導後續的工作處理情形一定要落實來追蹤。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員指導。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝次長、謝謝涂委員。","現在休息8分鐘。","休息（11時15分）","繼續開會（11時26分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","等一下在林淑芬委員質詢後，我們處理臨時提案。","廖偉翔委員改書面質詢。","接下來請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":138,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-12","speakers":["蘇清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合寬法"},{"start":85.816,"end":115.028,"text":"那我又看到那麼多的民進黨的立委反對核管法這是網內互打嗎還是童子賢在打臉民進黨立委像比如說像黃婕那時候核管法的時候她說哎呀通過核管法就是要讓什麼老舊研議啊那個核三廠已經機組已經這麼舊故障率大增然後講一大堆那現在是童子賢打臉黃婕還是黃婕打臉童子賢我現在要問主委啊主委你是核管法的主管機關嘛"},{"start":117.987,"end":140.765,"text":"是請問一下核管法的那條修正案是說通過以後核三就馬上研議嗎還是核一核二就馬上研議有嗎不是的按照文字的理解如果大家沒有閱讀障礙講的只是說放寬那個研議的法規限制嘛對吧如果今天核一核二核三要研議的話是不是還必須要經過核安的"},{"start":141.907,"end":168.806,"text":"確定還有核廢的處理跟社會共識嘛這個是這個總統講的嘛沒錯吧所以不是核官法通過立刻研議沒錯吧所以就很奇怪我那時候看到很多民進黨的立委在反對核官法的理由都讓你覺得很奇怪因為沒有人會在核安有餘裕的情況之下希望核安法研議嘛所以昨天在立法院有一個公投案剛剛我也有看到別的委員講啦"},{"start":170.327,"end":183.734,"text":"是這個核三廠的研議公投講的也是說當大家在確定比如主管機關確定安全無虞然後是不是要研議嘛所以大家其實都是把核安看得非常的重要"},{"start":184.656,"end":202.517,"text":"而且總統講說如果核定要研議那要有社會有共識什麼叫社會共識公投就可以取得社會共識不然什麼叫社會共識那我現在要指出一個核安會接下來一個很重要的責任因為現在核三公投非常有可能在今年的8月23號投票"},{"start":203.078,"end":231.944,"text":"到時候河山假設要研議它是安全的還是不安全的必須要有一個具有公信力的機關來出來做說明這不是說大家自己在這邊憑空想像它安全或不安全它必須要有一個機關出來真正做檢測然後為大家來示疑請問一下河安會這個部分你們有再去做檢測嗎河山場到底安全或不安全"},{"start":234.33,"end":259.929,"text":"這個部分需要由台電來提出申請其實細節部分我請高市長跟委員說明一下什麼意思 主委你可不可以對著麥克風講話我說這個部分台電需要提出申請台電依據他們的需要老化程度等各種因素所以台電如果沒有提出申請 核安會就不能夠確保"},{"start":261.01,"end":288.62,"text":"河山廠它是安全的或者是不安全的台電 河安會就不會處理這個事情河安會不會處理這個事情所以這重點就是說假設台電它不去跟河安會申請那河安會是就不管了也不會確保說即便是河安會對於這個廠你有安全疑慮你也不會去了解就讓台電自己來處理是這個意思那請問一下河安會"},{"start":289.997,"end":314.615,"text":"核安會沒有在確定核安全喔?是被動的等人家來申請才會去確定喔?就一部分請高組長說明一下跟我有說明喔那核管法三讀通過後核安會就會配合修正的條文要修訂執法然後要聯繫你一些管制的要求那這些技術細節的話我們會參考國際的做法"},{"start":316.716,"end":342.002,"text":"那原本核管法的執法裡面有一些老化的管理這部分要處理那目前的狀況因為核電廠都已經進入處理了那機組的狀況跟當時候核管法所設定的情境不一樣所以那個目前的機組要做的事情比當時候順利在運轉期間申請延長運轉的東西還要多所以這部分"},{"start":342.842,"end":370.911,"text":"台電公司要依照會裡面所定的執法跟相關的管制規定去盤點評估那有沒有重啟的一些條件安全的需求必須要做哪些事情那這部分台電公司要先去針對現場的設備然後重新評估去確認那如果他確認完之後認為說他需要提出申請換照那核安會就會進行安全審查跟現場查證確認他要符合法規跟管制的要求"},{"start":371.491,"end":390.299,"text":"當然這個過程當中因為我沒有那麼多時間討論這些細節那所以重點是你講的重點簡單講就是說台電他要先假設他有演藝需求的時候他才會去送核安會讓核安會來確認說他有沒有安全的問題他要自己先評估他自己要評估嘛"},{"start":390.839,"end":415.479,"text":"那他評估根據核管法他要研議的話他才會他先評估安不安全然後才會送核安會嘛核安會是不會主動去了解他安全或不安全過程中我們會去去視察透過視察的方法所以我們現在我們今天8月23票8月23號大家投票前如果台電他沒有去做這個動作的話我們並沒有辦法得到核安會的一個報告或者是告訴社會大眾他是安全還是不安全"},{"start":416.673,"end":439.869,"text":"沒有辦法那這樣子8月23號公投我覺得既然這個案子已經進入到8月23號這個公投案如果政府機關可以多負起責任不是被動的去接受別人的申請我覺得是比較有助於社會大眾做出判斷不然的話這個到底安不安全這個到底是誰說的算當然是核安會是最權威的機關"},{"start":441.685,"end":463.446,"text":"呃 跟我原說明的話沒關係我後面還有別的問題啦那 再來啦因為政府一直講說我們不排除不排除核能嘛特別是針對一些新型的核能像SMR這個很多人都在講這個東西我想要確定一下主委就你的了解台灣可能部署SMR大概是什麼時候啊"},{"start":465.046,"end":488.503,"text":"我SMR國際研已經有一些產生開始做研究有一些產生非常多這個我都知道目前大概2030年國際才會有商業化的2030年才會有商業化那台灣部署大概什麼時候如果可行的話一定是2030年以後的事情這部分請高組長跟委員說明一下又高組長不不高院長"},{"start":489.648,"end":507.353,"text":"是 報告委員 那個因為就是西方世界比較成熟的要2013年商品化那個過程不要再解釋了我現在是問說到底什麼時候當然定一個目標說我們不排斥新集合的人那到底什麼時候不會到2040還是2050的吧我們現在一個計畫 四年級的計畫我知道 我還幫你用紅筆列出來你有一個四年級SM大規模的計畫每年要爭取一億經費啊"},{"start":515.575,"end":537.482,"text":"那四年之後就是2029年啊那2029年我們就會有SMR嗎商轉化以後就是成本全面的幾個模組會比較貴所以也許二三十個模組以後它的價錢或cost down下來技術會比較穩定成熟所以也許商轉以後也許再過個兩年一兩年兩三年國家台灣再來決定要不要引起所以是2025加420292029再加2"},{"start":542.882,"end":567.455,"text":"2031年再來考慮這幾個不同的商業的M3R的模組來考慮要用哪一種 是不是我們的模組在四年計畫會提出一個建立看使用哪一個模組所以按照你的講法是2031年嘛是嘛 所以何安會的講法是說2031年可能我們就會決定SMR就可以開始部署"},{"start":568.593,"end":586.293,"text":"對吧我沒有誤會你的意思那時候才判可不可行那時候才判可不可行那看可不可行還要多久才會開始興建2031年我們大概就知道就知道了那好那確定2031年可以確定要做不做那要做之後那興建一個要多久"},{"start":587.729,"end":615.287,"text":"那現在時間是比較短大概多久三年所以2031再加3是2034差不多差不多等於是十年後我們可能可以用到SMR的這個電是不是如果證明可行的話十年後還需要滿足核安核肺那我接下來繼續問因為有很多專家學者也有提到說SMR的核廢料"},{"start":620.119,"end":642.234,"text":"那我們現在核廢到底要怎麼處理?像SMR是現在你們研究的方向嘛,那SMR如果有核廢料的話要怎麼處理?SMR的核廢料有些跟筆線差不多,有些比較少,所以不是一定數比較多。不是一定秒,我知道。那所以你現在是確定選擇商轉的SMR是要選擇核廢料比較少的是不是?"},{"start":643.209,"end":649.902,"text":"應該是這樣應該是要選核廢料那比較少還是會有嘛那你們現在怎麼去處理這些核廢料這個不能請問"},{"start":650.902,"end":671.077,"text":"報告委員 那個核廢料分兩種SMR產生第一放的核廢料跟現在的第一放是一樣的處理方式它產生的高方 怎麼處理就是先固化 然後儲存然後將來 這是可以處理的對 將來是要送最終處置廠就是它可以 也不用最終處置廠那最終處置廠現在計畫在哪裡現在計畫在台電 在執行中 什麼執行中"},{"start":676.741,"end":702.525,"text":"我今天沒有把那個表格列出來啊這個每一次大家都在問這個啊最東廚師廠定一個計畫出來但是到底進度有沒有按照那個計畫進行嗎有嗎他這個師生有言辭這個我都知道了之前問過我就不重複問了那再來我來問因為我們大家關心這個東西都主要是怕缺電嘛怕缺電才會問這個東西我問一下中研院好不好"},{"start":707.328,"end":730.374,"text":"跟中原會請教一下氫能的問題這個是中原會報告裡面講的跟台電公司合作在113年6月提案114到117年度公共建設計畫有一個天然氣去碳燃氫的一個系統建置跟試驗計畫是四年的那裡面裡面寫到是說到時候是會把這個燃氫的技術串接到燃氣的發電機"},{"start":732.234,"end":748.678,"text":"換句話說,按照字面上的理解,它會增加發電嗎?還是說它只是把原來燃天然氣的機組,把它改成燃氫?是把原來的機組做一些...所以它並不會增加發電嗎?我們請那個...我問你們為什麼講話都那麼小聲?可以對麥克風講話嗎?那我們請環面中心陳於高主任跟委員詳細報告"},{"start":757.216,"end":780.45,"text":"各位委員報告燃氣就是原來的天然氣轉成氫氣來燃燒電力不會增加那可能還會犧牲一小部分的電力不過產出的是無碳的電力對我知道我剛剛講說我們現在在討論會不會缺電問題因為政府一直告訴大家我們現在綠能有很大的發展有兩個部分一個是燃氫另外一個是地熱對不對"},{"start":784.751,"end":809.637,"text":"這個論述的方式是跟大家說大家不用擔心啦 我們現在技術很好啦我們有地熱會增加發電啦 藍青會增加發電可是按照剛剛中原委員的說法 沒有啊只是把藍天藍氣串接到藍青而且他剛剛那個主任講的說法還是說他還可能會消耗一些電力啊所以藍青沒有增加電力啊只是減碳嘛"},{"start":810.899,"end":834.23,"text":"沒錯吧所以這個沒有辦法增加電力我們現在想要知道的是政府發展綠能有什麼方式是可以比如說大家現在都說要非核非核那之後綠能怎麼去補這一塊藍青看起來是沒有辦法他只能減碳是委員剛剛已經說了地熱的發展就是來補這一塊的因為我們原來是沒有地熱的對 那地熱現在的計畫是什麼"},{"start":836.195,"end":851.904,"text":"現在地熱我們從淺層的往深層的去深層的去它的量體就會比較大所以這未來的一段時間在地熱的探勘上會著力的比較多地熱我下一次有時間我再跟中研委員請教那接下來我想問一下中研委員人才招募的問題"},{"start":853.318,"end":871.898,"text":"這個是中研院人才培育跟研染計畫我看前面有前面兩項一個是研染資深學人另外一個是與國內大學培育國際研究生計畫這兩項計畫應該都是朝國際招攬招攬人才嘛但是它就出現一個就是目標值跟實際值的落差譬如說"},{"start":872.859,"end":889.526,"text":"比如說我們看第一項延展資深學人113年度目標值10人但實際值只有3人114年度也是一樣目標值只有10人實際值只有3人想問一下說為什麼總是沒有辦法招到足額的優秀人才來 鍾妍玉"},{"start":890.666,"end":911.957,"text":"跟委員報告現在這個表當初實質立了三年其實111年的時候實際值其實有九人最近這個是資深學人資深學人的意思是說他在國外已經有或者是有長聘的職位或者是有一些講座的職位這些人"},{"start":913.297,"end":939.645,"text":"對我們來講都是一個很大的挑戰希望他們能夠到台灣來工作有的並不是台灣的中華民國國籍我知道我是問說為什麼目標跟實際有落差有些這個期望目標值但我們設的都蠻高的所以實際上所以是因為目標值設太高是不是我們可能會再看以後看把目標值調低喔"},{"start":940.455,"end":952.017,"text":"不是,我們會盡力努力啦我想我們希望這個都能夠能夠達到高的數字因為你們設目標值10人,實際3其實有很大的落差那我現在問你們困難在哪裡你的講法是說沒有,沒什麼困難是因為目標值設太高這個說法就大家比較不能接受那我覺得這邊有一個建議啦你參考一下因為川普有篩檢研究經費嘛75%的科學家考慮離開美國"},{"start":968.76,"end":991.3,"text":"那國外呢有一些其他國家已經在考慮招攬這一些因為這個川普篩檢經費離開的這些研究人員像法國歐盟啊他們都有訂出一些計畫然後跟這些招手啦我認為你可以參考一下歐洲的國家的經驗啦看他們怎麼去針對這些可能因為美國預算被刪減然後離開出走這些人才讓他們來台灣"},{"start":992.782,"end":1002.235,"text":"謝謝委員長指教關心我們現在正在開始擬定一些計畫特殊針對現在的新的發展是的謝謝好謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":595,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時6分）主席好，麻煩請核安會主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["葉委員元之：主委好。剛剛我看到很多委員都有談到之前我們有通過核管法，核管法通過後，有一位總統府氣候變遷對策委員會副召集人童子賢，他是大加地讚揚，這個所謂的總統府氣候變遷對策委員會是賴清德總統非常重要政績，因為我看到他在拍影片的時候特別提到他有成立這3個委員會是很好的政績，裡面其中一個委員會的副召集人童子賢又是這麼地肯定核管法。我來念一下，他說，通過核管法代表多年來臺灣的民主社會透過直接民意與間接民意，已經清楚表達老百姓厭倦，也否決非核家園的政策。而且他還提到最近的能源政策很多問題，有漲電價、造成空污、碳排過高、地方派系侵蝕綠能利益，而且天然氣的供電韌性也飽受威脅等等，所以對於一個總統重大政績裡面的委員會的一個副召集人如此肯定核管法，我又看到那麼多的民進黨立委反對核管法，這是網內互打嗎？還是童子賢在打臉民進黨立委？比如說黃捷，那時候在討論核管法的時候，他說通過核管法就是要讓老舊的延役，核三廠機組已經這麼舊，故障率大增，講了一大堆，現在是童子賢打臉黃捷？還是黃捷打臉童子賢？我現在要問主委，主委，你是核管法的主管機關，對吧？"],["陳主任委員明真：是。"],["葉委員元之：請問一下，核管法的那條修正案是說通過以後，核三就馬上延役？還是核一、核二就馬上延役？有嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：不是的。"],["葉委員元之：按照文字的理解，如果大家沒有閱讀障礙，講的只是說放寬延役的法規限制，對吧？如果今天核一、核二、核三要延役的話，是不是還必須經過核安的確定，還有核廢的處理跟社會共識，這個是總統講的嘛，沒錯吧？"],["陳主任委員明真：是的。"],["葉委員元之：所以不是核管法通過立刻延役，沒錯吧？所以就很奇怪，我那時候看到很多民進黨的立委在反對核管法的理由都讓你覺得很奇怪，因為沒有人會在核安有疑慮的情況之下希望核電廠延役嘛，所以昨天在立法院有一個公投案，剛剛我也有看到別的委員講了，是核三廠的延役公投，講的也是說，讓大家確定比如說主管機關確定安全無虞，然後是不是要延役嘛，所以大家其實都是把核安看得非常地重要。而且總統講說如果核電要延役，社會要有共識，什麼叫社會共識？公投就可以取得社會共識啊！不然什麼叫社會共識？","我這邊要指出核安會接下來一個很重要的責任，因為核三公投非常有可能在今年8月23號投票，到時候核三假設要延役，它是安全的還是不安全的，必須要有一個具有公信力的機關出來做說明，這個不是說大家自己在這邊憑空想像它安全、不安全，必須要有一個機關出來真的做檢測，然後為大家釋疑。請問一下核安會，這個部分你們有再去做檢測嗎？核三廠到底安全不安全？"],["陳主任委員明真：這個部分需要由台電來提出申請，細節部分我請高組長跟委員說明一下。"],["葉委員元之：什麼意思？主委可不可以對著麥克風講話？"],["陳主任委員明真：我說這個部分台電要提出申請，台電依據他們的需要、老化程度等各種因素……"],["葉委員元之：所以台電如果沒有提出申請，核安會就不能夠確保核三廠是安全的或者是不安全的？"],["陳主任委員明真：核安會就不會處理這個事情。"],["葉委員元之：核安會不會處理這個事情？"],["陳主任委員明真：對。"],["葉委員元之：所以重點就是說，假設台電不去跟核安會申請，核安會就不管了？也不會確保說……即便是核安會對於這個廠有安全疑慮，你也不會去了解？就讓台電自己來處理？是這個意思？"],["陳主任委員明真：核三……"],["葉委員元之：請問一下，核安會沒有在確定核安全？是被動地等人家來申請才會去確定？"],["陳主任委員明真：這部分請高組長來說明一下。"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明，核管法三讀通過後，核安會就會配合修正的條文要修訂子法，然後要研擬一些管制的要求，這些技術細節我們會參考國際的作法，原本核管法的子法裡面有一些老化的管理，這部分要處理，那目前的狀況，因為核電廠都已經進入除役了，機組的狀況跟當時候核管法所設定的情境不一樣，所以目前的機組要做的事情比當時候在運轉期間申請延長運轉的還要多，所以這部分台電公司要依照會裡面所訂的子法，跟相關的管制規定去盤點、評估，有沒有重啟的一些條件、安全的需求、必須要做哪些事情，這部分台電公司要先去針對現場的設備，然後重新評估、去確認，如果它確認完之後認為它需要提出申請、換照，那核安會就會進行安全審查跟現場查證，確認它要符合法規跟管制的要求。當然這個過程當中，台電公司……"],["葉委員元之：因為我沒有那麼多時間討論這些細節，所以你講的重點簡單講就是說，假設台電有延役需求的時候，它才會送核安會，讓核安會來確認它有沒有安全的問題。"],["高組長斌：它要自己先評估。"],["葉委員元之：它自己要評估嘛，它要評估，根據核管法，它要延役的話，它先評估安不安全，然後才會送核安會，核安會是不會主動去了解它安全或不安全嘛。"],["高組長斌：在這個過程中，我們會去視察，透過視察……"],["葉委員元之：所以在8月23號大家投票前，如果台電沒有去做這個動作的話，我們並沒有辦法得到核安會的一個報告，或者告訴社會大眾它是安全還是不安全，沒有辦法？"],["高組長斌：確定，沒有辦法，因為台電公司……"],["葉委員元之：那這樣子8月23號公投……既然這個案子已經進入到8月23號的公投案，如果政府機關可以多負起責任，不是被動地去接受別人的申請，我覺得是比較有助於社會大眾做出判斷，不然的話，安不安全到底是誰說了算？當然核安會是最權威的機關啊！"],["高組長斌：跟委員說明……"],["葉委員元之：好，沒關係，我後面還有別的問題。再來，因為政府一直講說我們不排除核能，特別是針對一些新型的核能，像SMR，很多人都在講這個東西，我想要確定一下，主委，就你的了解，臺灣可能部署SMR大概是什麼時候？"],["陳主任委員明真：SMR在國際間已經有一些廠商開始做研究。"],["葉委員元之：已經有非常多，這個我都知道。"],["陳主任委員明真：2030年國際才會有商業化的……"],["葉委員元之：2030年才會有商業化。"],["陳主任委員明真：對。"],["葉委員元之：那臺灣部署大概是什麼時候？"],["陳主任委員明真：如果可行的話，一定是2030年以後的事情，這個部分請高院長跟委員說明。"],["高院長梓木：報告委員，因為西方世界比較成熟的要2030年才商品化，至於臺灣的話……"],["葉委員元之：那個過程不要再解釋了，我現在是問到底什麼時候，不然就訂一個目標說我們不排斥新型核能，那到底什麼時候，不會到2040還是2050了吧？"],["高院長梓木：我們會向國科會提一個4年期的計畫。"],["葉委員元之：我知道，我還幫你用紅筆列出來，你有一個4年期SMR大規模研究計畫，每年要爭取1億經費，4年之後就是2029年，那2029年我們就會有SMR嗎？"],["高院長梓木：商轉化以後就是前面幾個模組的成本會比較貴，所以也許二、三十個模組以後，它的價錢cost down下來，技術會比較穩定成熟，所以也許商轉以後再過個一兩年、兩三年，臺灣再來決定要不要引進SMR。"],["葉委員元之：所以是2025加4是2029，2029再加2，2031年再來考慮這幾個不同的商業SMR模組，然後考慮要用哪一種，是不是？你是這個意思嗎？"],["高院長梓木：我們的模組在4年計畫會提出一個建議，看使用哪一個模組，現在……"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！所以按照你的講法是2031年嘛！"],["高院長梓木：是，差不多。"],["葉委員元之：是嘛，所以核安會的講法是說2031年可能我們就會決定SMR，就可以開始部署，對吧？我沒有誤會你的意思吧？"],["陳主任委員明真：那時候才看可不可行。"],["葉委員元之：那時候才看可不可行，看可不可行還要多久才會開始興建？"],["陳主任委員明真：2031年我們大概就知道哪幾個比較有可能。"],["葉委員元之：那時就知道了嘛！好，就是2031年可以確定要做不做嘛，要做之後，興建一個要多久？"],["陳主任委員明真：興建時間是比較短。"],["葉委員元之：大概多久？"],["陳主任委員明真：3年。"],["葉委員元之：3年，所以2031再加3是2034。"],["陳主任委員明真：差不多。"],["葉委員元之：差不多，等於是10年後我們可能可以用到SMR的電，是不是？"],["陳主任委員明真：如果證明可行的話。"],["葉委員元之：10年後。"],["陳主任委員明真：還是要滿足核安、核廢、社會共識幾個條件。"],["葉委員元之：好，接下來我繼續問，因為有很多專家學者也有提到，說SMR的核廢料可能比現在傳統核電的核廢料更多，我們現在核廢到底要怎麼處理？像SMR是現在你們研究的方向，SMR如果有核廢料的話要怎麼處理？"],["陳主任委員明真：SMR的核廢料有些比現在糟、有些跟現在差不多、有些比較少，所以不是一定會比較多。"],["葉委員元之：不是一定比較多，我知道，所以你現在確定選擇商轉的SMR是要選擇核廢料比較少的是不是？"],["陳主任委員明真：應該是這樣。"],["葉委員元之：應該是要選核廢料比較少的，比較少還會是有，那你們現在怎麼去處理這些核廢料？"],["陳組長文泉：報告委員，核廢料分兩種，SMR產生低放的核廢料跟現在的低放是一樣的處理方式，它產生高放……"],["葉委員元之：怎麼處理？"],["陳組長文泉：就是先固化，然後貯存，然後將來……"],["葉委員元之：就是可以處理的？"],["陳組長文泉：對，將來還是要送最終處置場。"],["葉委員元之：也是會有最終處置場？"],["陳組長文泉：對。"],["葉委員元之：最終處置場現在計畫在哪裡？"],["陳組長文泉：現在計畫是台電在執行中，可能有點困難。"],["葉委員元之：什麼執行中？我今天沒有把那個表格列出來，每一次大家都在問這個，最終處置場訂一個計畫出來，但是到底進度有沒有按照那個計畫進行？有嗎？"],["陳組長文泉：其實它的時程有延遲。"],["葉委員元之：好啦！這個我都知道，我之前問過，我就不重複問了。再來我要問，我們大家關心這個東西主要是怕缺電，怕缺電才來問這個東西。","我問一下中研院，跟中研院請教一下氫能的問題，這個是中研院報告裡面講的：與台電公司合作於113年6月提案，114至117年度公共建設計畫有一個天然氣去碳燃氫的系統建置跟試驗計畫；是4年的，裡面寫到，到時候會把燃氫技術串接到燃氣的發電機；換句話說，按照字面上的理解，它會增加發電嗎？還是說它只是把原來燃天然氣的機組改成燃氫？"],["周副院長美吟：是把原來的機組做一些改變。"],["葉委員元之：所以它並不會增加發電？"],["周副院長美吟：我們請……"],["葉委員元之：我問你們為什麼講話都那麼小聲？可以對著麥克風講話嗎？"],["周副院長美吟：我們請環變中心陳于高主任跟委員詳細報告。"],["葉委員元之：好，可以。"],["陳主任兼執行秘書于高：跟委員報告，燃氣就是原來的天然氣轉成氫氣來燃燒，電力不會增加，可能還會犧牲一小部分的電力，不過產出的是無碳的電力。"],["葉委員元之：對，我知道。我剛剛說我們現在在討論會不會缺電的問題，因為政府一直告訴大家，我們現在的綠能有很大的發展，有兩個部分，一個是燃氫，另外一個是地熱，對不對？這個論述的方式是跟大家說：大家不用擔心，我們現在技術很好，我們有地熱會增加發電，燃氫會增加發電。可是按照剛剛中研院的說法，沒有啊！只是把燃天然氣串接到燃氫，而且剛剛主任的說法是它還可能會消耗一些電力，所以燃氫沒有增加電力啊！只是減碳嘛！沒錯吧？所以這個沒有辦法增加電力啊！我們現在想要知道的是，政府發展綠能有什麼方式是可以……比如說大家現在都說要非核，非核之後綠能怎麼去補這一塊？燃氫看起來是沒有辦法，它只能減碳嘛！"],["陳主任兼執行秘書于高：是，委員剛剛已經說了，地熱的發展就是來補這一塊的，因為我們原來是沒有地熱的。"],["葉委員元之：對，地熱現在的計畫是什麼？"],["陳主任兼執行秘書于高：現在地熱從淺層的往深層的去，深層的量體就會比較大，所以未來一段時間在地熱的探勘上會著力得比較多。"],["葉委員元之：關於地熱，下一次有時間我再跟中研院請教。","接下來我想問一下中研院有關人才招募的問題，這個是中研院人才培育及延攬計畫，我看前面兩項，一個是延攬資深學人，另外一個是與國內大學培育國際研究生計畫，這兩項計畫應該都是朝國際招攬人才，但就出現一個目標值跟實際值的落差，譬如說我們看第一項的延攬資深學人，113年度目標值10人，但實際值只有3人，114年度也是一樣，目標值10人，實際值只有3人。想問一下，為什麼總是沒有辦法招到足額的優秀人才來中研院？"],["周副院長美吟：好的，跟委員報告，這個表當初只列了3年，其實111年的時候實際值有9人，這個是資深學人，資深學人的意思是他在國外已經有常聘的職位，或者是有一些講座的職位，這些人對我們來講都是一個很大的挑戰，希望他們能夠到臺灣來工作，有的並不是中華民國國籍，所以我們都非常努力……"],["葉委員元之：我知道，我是問為什麼目標跟實際有落差？"],["周副院長美吟：這個期望目標值我們設得都滿高的，所以實際上是有些……"],["葉委員元之：所以是因為目標值設太高是不是？"],["周副院長美吟：可能以後再看……"],["葉委員元之：把目標值調低喔？"],["周副院長美吟：不是，我們會盡力努力，我想我們都希望能夠達到比較高的……"],["葉委員元之：因為你們設目標值10人，實際是3人，其實有很大落差，我現在問你們困難在哪裡，你的講法是沒什麼困難，是因為目標值設太高……"],["周副院長美吟：不是、不是……"],["葉委員元之：這個說法大家就比較不能接受。"],["周副院長美吟：我剛剛解釋的是……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得這邊有一個建議，你參考一下，因為川普有刪減研究經費，75%的科學家考慮離開美國，有一些其他國家已經在考慮招攬這些因為川普刪減經費離開的研究人員，像法國、歐盟，他們都有訂出一些計畫向這些人招手，我認為你可以參考一下歐洲國家的經驗，看看他們怎麼去針對這些可能因為美國預算刪減，然後離開出走的這些人才，讓他們來臺灣做研究。"],["周副院長美吟：謝謝委員的指教關心，我們現在正在開始擬定一些計畫。"],["葉委員元之：就是針對川普……"],["周副院長美吟：針對現在新的發展，是的，謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員，主管請回。","接下來請吳沛憶委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-12","speakers":["林宜瑾","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","謝龍介","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","葉元之","吳沛憶","鍾佳濱","萬美玲","范雲","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","林沛祥"],"page_start":381,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案6案；二、處理\n114年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案9案；三、處理114年\n度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院單位預算解凍案1案","agenda_id":"1145101_00009"}}},{"id":"161711","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161711","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db393fbe4edf7203802aab3ad0e17f3153db0f420b3783afbdf4d63c271f6545ab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:12:02 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那有請公安局請蔡局長"},{"start":7.796,"end":32.804,"text":"好 謝謝主席 周委員好好 局長我今天來跟你討論我認為可能有國安的議題那您聽聽看那再告訴我你們現在目前可能聽起來的狀況之前在2022年有一個直攔高雄鋼鐵人港資案那當時行政機關處理得很好那第一時間做了相關的處理但是我要提醒相關國安的滲透可能不是只有在過往我們認為那些領域當中目前我們看到有一個案子是這樣子的"},{"start":33.664,"end":49.996,"text":"那事實上中國這幾年其實透過收購海外的球隊這件事情其實我相信您是知道的對嗎好那有沒有可能台灣有相關的案例有的有一個台灣體育運動大學在台中在2024年他們把以及足球聯賽的參賽資格"},{"start":53.637,"end":73.926,"text":"轉讓給峰會體育有限公司好那這個案子呢從教育部那邊我們辦公室已經積極在處理了我們認為這件事情是不妥的那不妥的原因那教育部這邊當然有教育部該做的事情高教師後來實地去調查認為不管是用印合作內容檢視法專盤點都有可能涉及到港資或中資所以"},{"start":74.306,"end":87.877,"text":"但是因為之前沒有相關的機制所以他們後續怎麼檢討教育部那邊我們辦公室會持續追蹤但是我要跟您討論的是下一件事情我們來看下一頁我們認為大學自治不能當成是一個藉口可是我們來看相關的權利轉讓文件呢"},{"start":90.399,"end":115.471,"text":"其實是很有問題那目前他們這個案子是這樣他光是球隊教練一個人簽名就把台體大數十年聯賽的參賽資格拱手送人我們來看一下他送給了哪一家公司呢就是我剛跟您說的峰會體育有限公司如果我們到經濟部的網站上去查可能看不出他有中資的問題但是峰會體育有限公司的這個負責人他其實也是另外一家公司叫做等一下"},{"start":119.761,"end":143.858,"text":"我把那個公司的名字抓出來 等我一下這個馮世文他本人又是美麥公司的董事兼發言人而這個美麥公司的前身是好玩家而這個好玩家集團就跟港資跟公資會牽扯上關係我講到這麼多就是目前因為球隊內部的管控機制跟台體大的管控機制不良導致於他們把這個球隊的參賽資格轉讓出去了而且是簽約賣出去了"},{"start":148.141,"end":174.052,"text":"賣出去之後我們發現他背後可能是港資跟中資我不知道聽到目前為止你覺得有什麼意義對我們會有在注意的是對岸透過一些兩岸交流來做一些統戰滲透的活動是那對委員在提醒到對岸有沒有涉入到我們國內的一些球隊或是大學的一些球隊的活動那甚至用資金來介入相關的經營管理權這部分我們要再來注意好"},{"start":174.532,"end":199.419,"text":"這個案子我們到時候會相關的資料會跟你們討論可是我認為這應該不會只是個案它可能會有陸續其他通案的問題因為我要提醒陸委會的是在國外的俱樂部參賽權利的收購跟轉讓都是所謂的商業行為可是在中華足協的足球聯賽它是FIFA亞足聯系統賽事參賽的球隊都具有代表台灣參加國際賽事的可能性"},{"start":200.427,"end":229.424,"text":"意思就是如同我剛剛說的如果他背後是中資或港資但是他把這個台灣球隊買下來他是代表台灣去參加國際賽事那不只是出賽那個當下的狀況而是他在整個球隊營運的過程當中他會如何進行所謂滲透的行為而這件事情難道對台灣的國安沒有影響嗎請你想像一下在一個國際的舞台上一個背後的老闆是中資或港資他所持有的球隊他如何面對中國相關的要求跟壓力"},{"start":230.345,"end":240.938,"text":"更不要講其他因為運動而產生的其他問題那我要提醒的是其實不是只有足球包含排球在台灣由單項協會所主辦的企業聯賽他們也都有機會代表台灣去參加國際體育組織所主辦的亞洲賽事"},{"start":249.508,"end":270.487,"text":"他穿上的台灣制服代表台灣出賽但是他背後卻是港資跟中資這件事情我要積極拜託陸委會有沒有可能去關注這個事情然後作為你們日後重要業務推廣跟情報資料收集的方向之一好一般中資港資的活動我們傳統上比較關注的重點是在有沒有一些竊密攬財是"},{"start":272.709,"end":290.627,"text":"據高科技的產業的發展來簽名攬財那我提醒的是有沒有這些中資港資在台灣涉入到相關球隊活動以外還去影響到台灣的國際賽事的參賽權的安排或主辦權的安排那這部分我們再來瞭解一下包括跟陸委會或教育部這邊來看相關"},{"start":292.128,"end":312.786,"text":"我要跟您提供另外一個訊息這也是我們從地方上收集到的訊息那當然都還有待查證啦就是這個峰會公司它之所以有可能要買這個球隊是因為台中在之前的新聞就說要蓋一個足球園區那這個足球園區落成之後它需要相關的經營團隊進來那如果我在台中毆有一支球隊我就有權利去進行所謂的"},{"start":313.828,"end":333.991,"text":"參與投標來經營這個所謂的足球園區所以我們很擔心他買這個球隊不是只是為了買這個球隊可能也不是只是為了影響所謂的國際參賽權他背後還有什麼動機我們其實打上很大的問號所以要拜託國安局這邊積極的那我們辦公室會再把更多的資料跟你們討論 好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝我們這個案例 謝謝好 我們之後一起努力喔這個問題我不會只有質詢完就結束了好不好好 謝謝 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5月19號就在賴清德總統就職滿一週年的前夕爆出了海巡署的高官主任"},{"start":100.458,"end":104.66,"text":"中輝的共諜的事件但這個事件發生讓我聯想到這幾天有兩起的偷渡的案件包括5月17號中國籍的宋姓父子搭乘橡皮艇那個偷渡來台還有一個是5月18號自稱山東凱哥的陸籍攔子發布了整個影片是從15日從福建駕駛動力的橡皮艇成功登陸了桃園海岸而且還插上了五星旗那當然"},{"start":129.481,"end":134.804,"text":"據我了解這個偷渡的事件表面上應該是海巡署的責任但是好像跟你們沒關係但是跟你們國安局到底有沒有關係呢而且國家安全就是國安局的責任嘛國安局主要的任務應該是復席台海兩岸的情報工作這樣然後因為根據過去幾次我們"},{"start":148.311,"end":158.514,"text":"中國的偷渡客偷渡的案件中你們國安局的報告都有提到說可能是對岸的灰色地帶整個的作為所以這次抓到的這位莊中輝主任這個共諜他是負責的是金馬盆地區的情務編排那局長你認為抓到這一個他把海巡情務分配的狀況的洩露給對岸的機率這樣的高不高"},{"start":174.599,"end":178.822,"text":"還有跟這些偷渡案件有沒有關聯還有有沒有可能是這些偷渡客實際上他已經掌握了整個海巡的情惡狀況知道要怎麼樣避開海巡署的巡邏呢對就個案的部分因為已經在司法偵辦了那所以他們相關的一個調查的細節我可能一來不知道我也不方便在這個場合來做說明個案的部分司法偵辦的個案部分"},{"start":200.558,"end":227.749,"text":"那第二部分在海域安全的部分確實夜館的機關是海巡署但是海巡署是我們國安情報機關裡面四同情報機關所以依照我們的國家情報工作法跟國安局組織法我們是可以指導統合跟協調還有支援包括海巡署在內的情報機關跟四同情報機關相關的國安情報的收演那所以對於海域安全的部分我們國安局這邊會比較關注的是整體的中共相關襲擾的樣態"},{"start":229.87,"end":249.045,"text":"那個案調查的部分 剛剛跟文說明了會由司法檢調來釐清相關的一個案情不過因為一再的發生這些個案那到底我們海防有沒有凸顯一些漏洞那這些漏洞後續海巡署該怎麼樣來彌補那我們這幾天也是很密集的跟海巡署在討論也是希望他們能夠很確實的來檢討每個個案所凸顯的漏洞"},{"start":253.388,"end":270.223,"text":"那來針對海防的漏洞來做必要的一個彌補那這部分我們會持續的來指導協調海巡署來加強相關的策進的作為好那我請教再請教局長一下就是這兩三年來不斷的都發生這些中國的偷渡來台的台灣的案件"},{"start":270.723,"end":273.946,"text":"那台灣海峽就號稱黑水溝嘛因為海象非常的惡劣常有船難然後所以我想請教一下就是國安局是否有很認真的看待對岸的偷渡的這個事件因為他們有時候說是來自中國的投奔自由的偷渡客怎麼那麼容易就會穿越了整個台灣海峽而且穿過我國的海域就好像入無人之境一樣那局長你認為這是中共有系統的行動呢"},{"start":298.887,"end":304.449,"text":"還是分散的就像你剛才說是不是分散個案還是有其他的結論還是說你覺得你不排除中共的灰色地帶的這個整個的行動局長還有剛才那個海巡組還要統計說截至5月17號開始已經累計大約有偷渡案大概5起共有38個人了有那麼多人來偷渡的話那我想請教局長就是國安局的情報分析能力可以得出一個最基本的原因嗎"},{"start":325.114,"end":349.72,"text":"基本社會委員比較關切是在於動機的部分每一個這些偷渡案的動機可能都不一樣所以必須要進去做比較深入的釐清包括它的航程包括它的油料以及它航行的路徑到底合不合理也要收集它的手機相關的數位跡證的檢視看手機的記錄裡面的一個定位是不是如它所供述的那個過程"},{"start":350.6,"end":379.559,"text":"那第二部分可能也會去注意到的是他的那個小艇那他的小艇到底是不是直接從對岸航行到台灣的岸際還是是中間有任何的船舶的接駁那也會透過那個小艇各種生物跡證的檢測來還原那相關偷渡犯他們的供詞到底正確或不正確那另外可能也會注意到的是他們這種小艇假如要用大船放下來的話一般都還是會有一個懸吊或相關的"},{"start":381.361,"end":402.578,"text":"勾類似抓放的一個痕跡那這也會去透過那個小艇的檢測來看到底真的是如供述的直接過來的還是有經過大船的投放他才在某個海峽中間點來切入到台灣的相關的海域所以這部分每個個案都要做一些還原跟釐清好 謝謝"},{"start":404.079,"end":426.161,"text":"那我再問一個問題就是比較近的問題就是局長你說收集外國的情報也是國安局的工作嘛那你最近針對了川普曾經說過要買下格林南島還有加拿大可能會變成美國的第51州這樣的結果格林南島和加拿大的領導人都怎麼說的你知道嗎"},{"start":427.943,"end":442.641,"text":"對,就從政策的角度來看可以從川普總統相關的談話那了解到他對於美國國土安全他非常的重視那因為他所關注的議題除了格林蘭那可能是敵對"},{"start":444.823,"end":467.855,"text":"國家發射導彈的一個主要的路徑那假如格陵蘭能夠跟美國比較親近的話美國在當地的軍事部署或飛彈攔截的設施雷達設施會比較好設置那另外他也提到了巴拉馬運河他還認為所有權應該要做重新的調整跟管理那從這些案例看起來從政策面的解讀可以知道的是美國川普政府"},{"start":468.375,"end":488.943,"text":"對於美國的本土安全似乎有高度的關注那這部分也比較符合他長期在講美國優先美國第一的這個概念所衍生出來的一些主張那當然他的一些相關的講法那有時候我們還要再去看他實際的政策作為是不是有類似比較具體的搭配那這我們還要再來繼續的注意"},{"start":491.164,"end":496.15,"text":"好 但是格陵南島和加拿大的領導人其實他們都說他們這些是非賣品所以我的問題就是說那現在總統在520發表演講的時候就有提到兩岸應該要用對話取代整個對抗"},{"start":506.261,"end":510.223,"text":"但是他前兩天在受訪的時候我又引用他的說法就是他說中國是比較大的公司台灣是比較小的公司那如果說你要併我的公司那你要提條件對吧這樣但是這樣的說法的時候其實真的引起了台灣人民的不安所以本席非常的擔心因為這樣說法會不會就是像"},{"start":528.092,"end":535.637,"text":"中國傳達了台灣主權可以出售的這整個訊息呢還有面對美國總統川普說要別人國家的主權併購這些領導人是不是都堅定的說我們主權其實是非賣品但是結果我們最愛講抗中保台的總統賴清德竟然提出了併購主權的說法那局長這是賴總統想要賣台了嗎還是真正的中共同路人"},{"start":554.329,"end":565.912,"text":"還有包括我們現在抓到的總統府的共諜都是賴總統派的跟中共對接的特使呢那我想說局長你是身為兩岸情報的單位首長那我想說你認為這樣的情況我剛才所說的你認為賴總統這樣的說法和比喻你覺得是恰當還是不恰當對我想我身為國安局長我不適合去評論國家引導人的每一句的談話那但是從這一段的訪談我自己我個人我也有去了解一下注意一下他的用語"},{"start":582.256,"end":609.853,"text":"那我個人在過程當中我看到的重點是賴總統特別在提醒那中共長期都有併吞台灣的意圖那不管他併吞台灣的方法或是方案是什麼都應該要尊重中華民國存在的事實以及台灣民意的意向那台灣是主權跟民主的國家那這個過程當中應該要注意到我們主權的地位跟民意的走向那這大概是我從談話內容當中我個人所看到的重點"},{"start":610.975,"end":611.316,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":429,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（11時1分）謝謝主席，有請蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，林委員早。"],["林委員憶君：局長早安。進入今天質詢的主題之前我還是先提醒一下局長，繼上一次你們發揮「抄能力」，一字不漏的抄自己之前的新聞稿作為專報的報告之後，今天我也發現你們送來的報告似乎又有點出包了。這次行政院送到立法院正式的關係文件，整個文書的解凍報告上面有說明討論事項第14案，在82頁，針對你們預算編列的槍擊偵測系統兩套夜間攝影設備預算解凍案的報告裡面，出現了時光倒流，報告裡面是寫「自109年─100年間即起案研提需求」，把時間寫成109到100，請問局長，正確時間到底是從哪一年開始的？還有國安局是行事那麼嚴謹的國安單位，怎麼會連送來立法院的預算解凍這麼重要的正式關係文書，都會像這樣在報告上面的說明不夠嚴謹，還出現了時光倒流這個錯誤？請局長說明一下。"],["蔡局長明彥：跟委員抱歉，實際的年份應該是109年到110年。"],["林委員憶君：所以這個可能還要改進，因為不是第一次這樣。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，假如不對的地方，我們來檢討。"],["林委員憶君：OK，好。接下來還有一個問題，就是比較離譜的共諜事件，前天5月19號在賴清德總統就職滿一週年的前夕，爆出了海巡署的高官莊宗輝主任是共諜的事件。這個事件的發生讓我聯想到這幾天有兩起偷渡的案件，包括5月17號中國籍的宋姓父子搭乘橡皮艇偷渡來臺，還有一個是5月18號自稱「山東凱哥」的陸籍男子發布了整個偷渡的影片，他是在15日從福建駕駛動力的橡皮艇成功登陸桃園海岸，還插上了五星旗。當然，據我了解，偷渡的事件表面上應該是海巡署的責任，好像跟你們沒關係，但是跟你們國安局到底有沒有關係呢？國家安全就是國安局的責任，國安局主要的任務應該是負起臺海兩岸的情報工作，因為過去幾次中國偷渡客偷渡的案件中，你們國安局的報告都有提到可能是對岸灰色地帶侵擾的作為，這次抓到這一位莊宗輝主任是共諜，他負責的是金馬澎地區的勤務編排。局長，你認為抓到他把海巡勤務分配狀況洩漏給對岸的機率高不高？跟這些偷渡案件有沒有關聯？有沒有可能是這些偷渡客實際上已經掌握了整個海巡的勤務狀況，知道要怎麼樣避開海巡署的巡邏呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，就個案的部分，因為已經在司法偵辦了，所以他們相關調查的細節，一來不知道，一來關於司法偵辦的個案部分，我可能也不方便在這個場合說明。第二，在海域安全的部分，確實業管的機關是海巡署，但是海巡署在我們國安情報機關裡面視同情報機關，所以依照我們國家情報工作法跟國安局組織法，我們可以指導、統合跟協調，還有支援包括海巡署在內的情報機關跟視同情報機關相關國安情報的蒐研。所以，對於海域安全的部分，我們國安局會比較關注的是整體中共相關襲擾的樣態，個案調查部分，剛剛跟委員說明了，會由司法檢調釐清相關的案情。","不過，因為一再的發生這些個案，到底我們海防有沒有凸顯一些漏洞，這些漏洞後續海巡署該怎麼樣彌補，我們這幾天也是很密集地跟海巡署討論，也是希望他們能夠很確實地檢討每個個案所凸顯的漏洞，針對海防的漏洞做必要的彌補。這部分我們會持續地指導、協調海巡署加強相關策進的作為。"],["林委員憶君：好，我再請教局長，這兩、三年來不斷地發生這些中國偷渡來臺的案件，但是臺灣海峽號稱黑水溝，海象非常的惡劣、常常有船難，所以我想請教一下，國安局是否有很認真的看待對岸偷渡的這個事件？因為他們有時候是來自中國投奔自由的偷渡客，但怎麼那麼容易就能穿越整個臺灣海峽？而且穿過我國的海域就如入無人之境一樣。局長，你認為這是中共有系統的行動呢？還是就像你剛才說是不是分散個案？還是有其他的結論？還是你不排除是中共灰色地帶侵擾的行動？剛才海巡署統計截至5月17號止，已經累計偷渡案有5起、共有38個人了。有那麼多人偷渡，我想請教局長，以國安局情報分析的能力可以得出一個最基本的原因嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，基本上委員比較關切的是動機的部分，每一個偷渡案的動機可能都不一樣，所以必須要進去做比較深入的釐清，包括他的航程包括油料以及航行的路徑到底合不合理，也要蒐集他手機相關數位跡證來檢視，看手機紀錄裡面的定位是不是如他所供述的過程。","第二，可能也會去注意到他的小艇，他的小艇到底是不是直接從對岸航行到臺灣的岸際，還是在中間有任何船舶的接駁，也會透過小艇各種生物跡證的檢測，還原相關偷渡犯的供詞到底正確或不正確。另外，可能也會注意到他們這種小艇，假如要用大船放下來的話，一般都還是會有懸吊或相關類似抓放的痕跡，這也會透過小艇的檢測來看，到底真的如供述是直接過來的，還是有經過大船的投放，它才在某個海峽中間點切入臺灣相關的海域，所以這部分對每個個案都要做一些還原跟釐清。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。我再問一個比較近的問題，局長，你說蒐集外國的情報也是國安局的工作嘛！最近針對川普曾經說過要買下格陵蘭島，還有加拿大可能會變成美國的第51州，結果格陵蘭島和加拿大的領導人都是怎麼說的，你知道嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：從政策的角度來看，可以從川普總統相關的談話了解他對於美國國土安全非常的重視，因為他所關注的議題除了格陵蘭可能是敵對國家發射導彈的一個主要路徑，假如格陵蘭能夠跟美國比較親近的話，美國在當地的軍事部署或飛彈攔截設施、雷達設施會比較好設置。另外，他也提到巴拿馬運河，他認為所有權應該要做重新的調整跟管理。從這些案例看起來，從政策面的解讀可以知道的是，美國川普政府對於美國的本土安全似乎有高度的關注，這部分也比較符合他長期在講美國優先、美國第一的概念所延伸出來的一些主張。當然，他一些相關的講法，有時候我們還要再去看他實際的政策作為是不是有類似比較具體的搭配，這個我們還要再繼續注意。"],["林委員憶君：好，但是格陵蘭島和加拿大的領導人其實都說他們這些是非賣品。我的問題就是賴清德總統在520發表演講的時候有提到，兩岸應該要用對話取代對抗。但是我要引用他的說法，他在前兩天受訪的時候，說中國是比較大的公司，臺灣是比較小的公司，如果你要併我的公司，那你要提出條件，對吧？但是這樣的說法真的引起了臺灣人民的不安，所以本席非常的擔心，這樣的說法會不會就是向中國傳達臺灣主權可以出售的訊息呢？還有，面對美國總統川普說要併購別人的國家主權，這些領導人是不是都堅定的說主權其實是非賣品？但我們最愛講抗中保臺的總統賴清德竟然提出了併購主權的說法。局長，這是賴總統想要賣臺了嗎？還是真正的中共同路人？包括我們現在抓到的總統府共諜都是賴總統派來跟中共對接的特使？局長，你身為兩岸情報單位的首長，你認為我剛才所說的情況，對於賴總統這樣的說法和比喻，你覺得恰當還是不恰當？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想我身為國安局長，我不適合去評論國家領導人的每一句談話，但是從這一段的訪談，我個人有去了解一下、注意一下他的用語，我個人在過程當中看到的重點是，賴總統特別提醒中共長期都有併吞臺灣的意圖，不管他們併吞臺灣的方法或是方案是什麼，都應該要尊重中華民國存在的事實以及臺灣民意的意向，臺灣是有主權跟民主的國家，在這個過程當中應該要注意到我們主權的地位跟民意的走向，這大概是我個人從總統的談話內容當中所看到的重點。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘，蔡易餘委員不在。","請陳培瑜委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":42,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-16","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","林憶君","陳培瑜","陳永康"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，國家安全局預算凍結案等24案","agenda_id":"1145201_00001"}}},{"id":"161709","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161709","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db46b469a7c1ce7243da433bb611ec39b9db0f420b3783afbdeabdaf21c288ba395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:56:31 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by謝謝首先先請教我們先就叫主權基金來請教副總裁我們看到了昨天總統發表了"},{"start":31.802,"end":46.775,"text":"談話說成立主權基金正是時候那提到三個兼顧他要把國發基金轉為國內的產業再造提升產業的競爭力但是呢 強調我們的主權基金是要做國際的經濟戰略布局某個程度來講 簡單來講就是在國際上賺錢請問總裁認為總統這樣的一個是跟之前央行的主張是不是一致"},{"start":55.66,"end":78.967,"text":"我想這是我們看到的主權基金這樣的規劃的確是一個大翻箱我們也提到學者專家對這些有些建議這些建議也跟之前央行總裁的談法差不多譬如說不建議動用外匯存底或者政府來提撥預算這當然說如果動用外匯要用有償的方式再來也不支持央行作為主權基金的管理機構這兩點您都認同對"},{"start":81.488,"end":90.89,"text":"好那接下來問財政部長了來莊部長在前面上一頁學者建議說既然不要用外匯也不要提撥預算他用稅收的超徵你同意嗎認同嗎"},{"start":92.502,"end":115.465,"text":"主權基金成立的規模要有多大那稅收這個部分是不是足以指引這個是要考慮的就是說你也不反對它的規模如果需要動用到超增的稅收雖然我不太想用超增的字眼但是你也覺得財政部可以來支持是嗎這個部分當然要涉專法第二個依照現行的預算法裡面對於稅收如果執行的比預算好的話第一個要"},{"start":115.986,"end":121.618,"text":"第一個先還債那如果會動用到假設是用稅收超徵的部分那你認為會是財政部來作為主管機關嗎"},{"start":124.254,"end":146.648,"text":"我覺得這是兩件事情好來金管會主委謝謝兩件事情很清楚了那最後我們看後面下一頁所以如果說央行不適合那麼財政部也不適合那麼金管會您來建議一下作為局外人因為總統說要問幾個單位要問國發會要問央行還有其他的財經部門剛好您是財經部門當中一份子你覺得呢"},{"start":147.742,"end":171.652,"text":"我想委員給我一個問題其實剛才那個莊部長跟我們的副總裁都有做答覆他未來會按照我們這個院裡面的大家來協調來決定好等到總統問你的時候你再講謝謝副總裁請回接下來我要請教莊部長部長剛好前面幾位也問到了那個房屋稅已經召委排的目的那時候我問到了"},{"start":173.153,"end":184.742,"text":"這個共有房屋人為全部自住的房屋那您也馬上從善如流今天您的報告講了四個對不對那為了這樣的關係你們延長房屋稅的申報到今年的6月2號是嗎"},{"start":186.977,"end":203.624,"text":"所以你這段時間積極的收集各種的意見反應不是整個房屋稅延長到6月份有問題的一到6月份有一些他們會重新開單的或有一些他要申報自住的已經自租的部分是延長時間那您的報告當中提到的四個像樣態啦那這四種樣態如果他已經繳了稅了怎麼處理"},{"start":207.655,"end":232.854,"text":"如果已經繳了稅 如果要重新做調整更正的話 那當然要退稅啦退稅 那當然什麼時候會辦理 明擺的告訴民眾 很多民眾在問啊聽說這樣子可以優惠耶 可以回復自用優惠 那我怎麼辦 我已經繳了耶明擺的跟大家宣示可以嗎這個退稅當然是會由地方稅捐機關來做退稅所以你們會去協助地方機關公布這個退稅的簽完程序這個部分我們會請地方機關盡快的讓民眾知道"},{"start":233.114,"end":256.193,"text":"好 很好 那請來督促地方政府那如果6月2號都已經繳完了後來又發現了你們發現各地方政府你們去收集意見我上次要求你們收集嘛那有哪些樣態你們發現還是可以適用的那這些6月2號的民眾也是比照這樣的方式來辦理退稅囉我覺得應該是這樣好 那就麻煩你督導地方政府好 謝謝接下來我們來請教今晚的彭主委來"},{"start":259.241,"end":281.178,"text":"好 部長 剛剛已經有委員在關心的這個題目就是所謂的ETF的IPO 哇 看到很多投訴什麼營業員 禮專 還有什麼責任制 回單的制度那現在對等關稅之後 這個基金不太好賣結果大家還要自己想辦法找親友買這樣的亂象 您覺得要怎麼樣去因應"},{"start":282.099,"end":302.259,"text":"我想我剛剛也回答前位委員的意見我想第一個那個金融機構本身它自己有它自己業績的管考的這樣那個制度但如果說它有不合理的情況或是不合時宜的做法那這個部分我們會先來了解很好,所以不合理或不合時宜我們來看一下嘛"},{"start":303.274,"end":319.91,"text":"投信 現在金控底下都有投信 對不對那他們成立基金IPO他們底下有券商 券商有業務員 業務員去行銷但是呢 業務員人手比較少所以營業員也來幫忙好 不只如此喔現在在場的八家公股 航空 很多有金控的"},{"start":320.45,"end":330.637,"text":"他們這個時候因為投信的銷售需要找保管銀行所以銀行為了搶保管業務會努力的幫投信多賣有時候統一金庫底下的投信商品會請李專來代勞那如果請李專來跟客戶介紹這"},{"start":334.318,"end":356.63,"text":"也是無可厚非但是櫃檯人員的業務是什麼櫃檯人員是儲匯業務確認身份聯防機制零匯化事情很多啊您覺得櫃檯人員適合去分擔責任額嗎本來在銀行的櫃檯端就有明確的區分比如說你具有那個銷售金融商品資格的本來就不會由這個來做對就是禮專嘛所以是不是"},{"start":357.31,"end":382.111,"text":"你也認為櫃台人員的其他任務他不適合分配被要求去做責任額的分攤那當然各家公司應該都有明確的規定好那就麻煩你請你只要求銀行局要求不只是我們今天在場的八個公股行庫有這樣的情況的請銀行局要求避免讓我們既有的金融人員的分工因為業績的挂帥而造成了不應該的負擔好不好"},{"start":383.092,"end":405.314,"text":"金融商品的銷售本來有一套的行為規範我想銀行或各個金融機構都非常的清楚這段時間請你們強化去做宣導跟要求接下來我們看一下最近發生一些車禍事故我們都知道本來的強車險它就有第三人責任險你覺得強車險到目前為止它的理賠金額它的保險方式足不足夠"},{"start":406.465,"end":435.023,"text":"我想這套制度其實是很久也發揮了它非常好的穩定社會的功能因為我們的強車險主要是保障被害人它不是保障加害人而設的所以它這個所有是有一套法律在明確規定它所有的給付跟條件的制度那我們從昨天的事故我們很不忍但我們來看一下萬一的這個是萬一發生了假設今天家長開車去接小孩他就停在路邊"},{"start":436.244,"end":463.774,"text":"結果呢別人肇事啊撞到他結果小孩受傷了你知道強車險賠不賠如果是因為他是受害人車子所肇事我的理解應該是有肇事人的車險賠但是我自己是車主我是駕駛我有頭保但是目前如果無肇事責任我們強車險對於車主親生的乘客是沒有賠的這本來就是我剛才講他是保障是以受害人為主不是以加害人"},{"start":464.474,"end":479.933,"text":"那麼受害人是我的乘客但是我不是肇事責任有肇事責任當然要賠但是這個人在我的車上我是車主結果他受傷了因為我沒有肇事責任我是停在路邊嘛被撞了嘛那這種情況要有沒有評估去考慮說這種情況要以檢討"},{"start":482.256,"end":506.112,"text":"因為很多的保護他不了解他說我有保強車險結果我停在路邊被人家撞了我沒事但是我的乘客受傷了結果人家保險公司說對不起你這個乘客不保你知道這個情況吧這個情況其實我當然了解這只是真的有時候比較複雜剛才委員剛剛有提到說沒有投保的人我們其實強車險有個特別補償基金來填補這個倒還好不會有這個問題我想這個再請"},{"start":515.098,"end":528.486,"text":"目前強車險是保受害人對不對它是一個損害天母的概念但是呢我們對兩輛車子的事故無肇事責任的車主他投保的車險保險公司是不對"},{"start":529.987,"end":550.068,"text":"車上的乘客賠的但是如果駕駛我受傷了是賠我但是我的乘客是不賠的這個部分是不是回去一下再思考一下可不可以增加無過失補償責任為基礎的新型車的保險商品這部分的話我們當然隨時要檢討該委員的意見我們會帶回去請保局在我們在強車險或其他任意險的部分來加強對"},{"start":553.231,"end":579.426,"text":"對這個被保險人跟相關受害人的保障是的 主委您說得很清楚這不見得是在強制險其他的任意險的商品也可以也就是說我們在銷售長車險的時候要明確的告知車主如果是他沒有他的肇事責任但是他受損了他是有賠的但是乘客目前是不涵蓋的他如果有需要或者我們有開發其他的商品或者未來納入但是目前要讓被保險人知道"},{"start":580.386,"end":596.999,"text":"那如果他有覺得有需要幫他的乘客保無造勢責任的其他的險種那麼就要請保險公司來進行說明好不好是我想我們加強說明這個商品承保的範圍讓所有人知道比如說很多人都以為比如說我買的車子也包含乘客其實並沒有"},{"start":598.14,"end":622.282,"text":"所以這個事件呢 很多的不幸事故都提醒我們可以去檢討跟精進那最後這一題呢 其實剛剛有委員問到了我們也是受到了很多的反應譬如說 今晚會對銀行局裁判的標準那有人提到說是糾正糾正糾正好 那請問一下我們看到目前為止從2025年開始到這些那麼"},{"start":623.163,"end":640.893,"text":"目前我們金管會或銀行局對於銀行的違規事項你們有什麼原則分別處置譬如說是內禁內控自行呈報還是外部稽查查獲得有什麼差別是 跟委員報告也許從他事件一樣挪用客戶存款這件事情"},{"start":641.813,"end":665.967,"text":"但是他整個的過程當比如裁罰但是我們很有可能比如說本來我們就過去一直強力要求金融機構建立三道防線三道防線就是他自己有偵查管控修正的能力如果是這個三道防線能夠合一的舉行而且他也做完這個接下來這個防範我們會看他的這個情況來給予就是可能只是個糾正但是如果說"},{"start":666.667,"end":683.14,"text":"穿透這個東西而且它是根本就渾然不覺我剛才跟委員報告過這時候我們就是要重罰比如這個東西因為這個完全不一樣的東西所以我剛才講過不管是誰當主委規定這都是銀行局的標準一向都是如此好 謝謝因為主委贊同把內容"},{"start":683.74,"end":700.51,"text":"自行發現調查跟主動呈報的與外部稽查或經檢查獲的兩者的裁罰流程跟進程是有差別的對不對最後的結論四點剛剛已經講過了不太易說明請提出請提出請央行提出你認為主權基金最適合的基金來源管理機構請提出你們的看法"},{"start":700.99,"end":725.132,"text":"第二請財政部就房屋稅的這個相關異議剛才打火的部分也提供一個書面那第三呢請經管會就所謂的強車險的部分在於未來投保的告知或者未來可不可以增加相關的險種給予這個無肇事責任的車主及他的乘客有完整的保障以及最後你們對於精檢裁罰的這些相關的規定做一個書面報告可以嗎沒問題好謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝委員"},{"start":726.694,"end":732.032,"text":"好 謝謝這個人的質詢我們按剛才宣布的就休息四分鐘好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":787,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時56分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請央行嚴副總裁、財政部莊部長以及金管會彭主委。"],["主席：央行嚴副總裁、財政部莊部長、彭主委。"],["鍾委員佳濱：彭主委那一段可能要請銀行局跟保險局兩位局長陪同。"],["主席：銀行局、保險局局長在旁邊stand by。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。首先我就主權基金來請教副總裁，我們看到昨天總統發表談話說成立主權基金正是時候，提到三個兼顧，他要把國發基金轉為國內的產業再造，提升產業競爭力，但是強調我們的主權基金是要做國際的經濟戰略布局，某個程度簡單講就是在國際上賺錢啦！請問總裁，你認為總統這樣的揭示跟之前央行的主張是不是一致？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我們看到主權基金這樣的規劃的確是一個大方向。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們也提到學者專家對此有些建議，這些建議也跟之前央行總裁的看法差不多，譬如說不建議動用外匯存底，或者由政府來提撥預算，當然，如果動用外匯要用有償的方式啦！再來，也不支持央行作為主權基金的管理機構，這兩點您都認同嘛！"],["嚴副總裁宗大：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。接下來問財政部長，莊部長，學者建議不要用外匯，也不要提撥預算，要用稅收的超徵，你同意嗎？認同嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：主權基金成立的規模要有多大，還有稅收這個部分是不是足以支應，這個是要考慮的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是說你也不反對，如果它的規模需要動用到超徵的稅收，雖然我不太喜歡用「超徵」的字眼，但是你也覺得財政部可以來支持，是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：首先，這個部分要設專法；第二個，依照現行的預算法，對於稅收如果執行的比預算好的話，首要是要優先還債。"],["鍾委員佳濱：假設是用稅收超徵的部分，你認為會是財政部來作為主管機關嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我覺得這是兩件事情。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。來，金管會主委。兩件事情很清楚了，所以如果說央行不適合、財政部也不適合，那麼金管會來建議一下，您作為局外人，因為總統說要問幾個單位，要問國發會、要問央行，還有其他的財經部門，剛好您是財經部門當中的一分子，你覺得呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員給我的問題，其實剛才莊部長跟副總裁都有做答復，它未來會按照我們院裡面大家協調的來決定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，等到總統問你的時候你再講。好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：副總裁請回，接下來我要請教莊部長。部長，剛好前面幾位委員有問到召委排的房屋稅題目，那時候我問到共有房屋人未全部自住的房屋，你也馬上從善如流，今天你的報告講了四個，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為了這樣的關係，你們延長房屋稅的申報到今年的6月2號，是嘛？所以你這段時間積極地蒐集各種的意見反應？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是整個房屋稅延長到6月……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有問題的移到6月2號？"],["莊部長翠雲：有一些他們會重新開單，或有一些他要申報自住的或委託出租的部分是延長時間。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。我們往下看，在您的報告當中提到了四個樣態，就這四種樣態，如果他已經繳稅了，要怎麼處理？"],["莊部長翠雲：如果已經繳稅，但又需要重新做調整更正的話，當然要退稅啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：退稅大概什麼時候會辦理？請明白地告訴民眾，很多民眾都在問啊，聽說這樣子可以優惠，可以回復到自用優惠，要怎麼辦？因為已經繳稅了耶！請明白地跟大家宣示，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分當然會由地方稅捐機關來做退稅。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們會去協助地方機關公布這個退稅的相關程序？"],["莊部長翠雲：有關這個部分，我們會請地方機關儘快地讓民眾知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，很好，請督促地方政府。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果6月2號都已經繳完了，後來你們又發現各地方政府，我上次要求你們去蒐集意見嘛，如果又有哪些樣態是你們發現還是可以適用的，這些6月2號以後符合的民眾也是比照這樣的方式來辦理退稅囉？"],["莊部長翠雲：我覺得應該是這樣，適用要一致的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那就麻煩您督導地方政府。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。","接下來要請教金管會彭主委，主委，剛剛已經有委員在關心這個題目了，就是所謂ETF的IPO，我們看到很多的投訴，包括營業員、理專，他們檢舉的是責任額制度與回單機制，現在對等關稅之後，這個基金不太好賣，結果大家還要自己想辦法找親友買，對於這樣的亂象，您覺得要怎麼樣去因應？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛剛也回答前一位委員的提問，我想第一個，金融機構本身有它自己業績管考的制度，但如果說有不合理的情況或是不合時宜的作法，這個部分我們會先來瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，所以合理或不合時宜的，我們來看一下，現在金控底下都有投信，對不對？他們成立基金或IPO，他們底下有券商，券商裡面有業務員，業務員就去行銷，但是業務員人手比較少，所以營業員也來幫忙。不只如此，現在在場的8家公股行庫很多有金控的，因為投信的銷售需要找保管銀行，所以銀行為了搶保管業務，會努力的幫投信多賣，有的則是同一金控底下的投信商品會請理專來代勞。如果是理專跟客戶介紹也是無可厚非，但是櫃檯人員的業務是什麼？櫃檯人員是負責儲匯業務、確認身分、聯防機制及臨櫃關懷等，事情很多啊，您覺得櫃檯人員適合去分擔責任額嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：本來在銀行的櫃檯端就有明確的區分，比如說需要具銷售金融商品資格的，本來就不會由這個來做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，就是理專嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以是不是你也認為櫃檯人員有其任務，他不適合分配被要求去做責任額的分攤？"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然，各家公司應該都有明確的規範。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那就麻煩您請銀行局去要求，不只是今天在場的8家公股行庫，只要有這樣的情況，請銀行局去要求，避免讓我們既有金融人員的分工因為業績掛帥而造成了不應該的負擔，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，金融商品的銷售本來就有一套行為規範，我想銀行或各個金融機構都非常的清楚。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這段時間請你們強化去做宣導跟要求。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，接下來我們要看的是，最近發生一些車禍事故，我們都知道，本來的強車險就有第三人責任險，你覺得強車險到目前為止的理賠金額、保險方式足不足夠？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這套制度其實施行很久了，也發揮了非常好的、穩定社會的功能，因為我們的強車險主要是保障被害人，不是為保障加害人而設的啦，所以這個是有一套法律在明確規定所有的給付跟條件的制度。"],["鍾委員佳濱：前天的車禍事故讓我們很不忍，我們來看一下，萬一事故發生了，假設今天家長開車去接小孩，他把車停在路邊，結果別人肇事撞到他，小孩受傷了，這樣的狀況強車險賠不賠？"],["彭主任委員金隆：如果因為他是受害人，車子的肇事，就我的理解應該是會賠。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是由肇事人的車險賠。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我自己是車主，我是駕駛，我有投保，但是如果無肇事責任……"],["彭主任委員金隆：特別補償基金會來處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們的強車險對於車主的乘客是沒有賠的。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我剛才講了，這個保障本來就是以受害人為主，不是以加害人為主。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，受害人是我的乘客，但是我沒有肇事責任，有肇事責任的人當然要賠，但是這個人在我的車上受傷了，我是車主，但因為我沒有肇事責任，我是停在路邊被撞的嘛，對於這種情況，有沒有評估考慮要去檢討？因為很多的保戶不瞭解，他認為自己有保強車險，車子停在路邊被人家撞了，自己沒事，但是車上的乘客受傷了，結果保險公司說：對不起，你的乘客不保。您知道這個情況吧？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個情況我當然了解，只是真的有時候比較複雜，剛才委員提到的情況，如果是沒有投保的人，我們的強車險其實有個特別補償基金會來填補，這個倒還好，不會有這個問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我想這個再請保險局去瞭解一下，目前強車險是保受害人，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是一個損害填補的概念，但是對於兩輛車子的事故，無肇事責任車主所投保車險的保險公司是不對車上的乘客做理賠的，但是如果駕駛受傷了，是會賠我，但是我的乘客是不賠的，這個部分是不是回去再思考一下，可不可以增加無過失補償責任為基礎的新型態保險商品？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個部分我們當然隨時要檢討，剛剛委員的意見，我們會帶回去，請保局在強車險或其他任意險的部分來加強對被保險人跟相關受害人的保障。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，主委說得很清楚，這不見得是在強制險，其他的任意險商品也可以。也就是說，我們在銷售強車險的時候，要明確的告知車主，如果他沒有肇事責任，但是他受傷受損了，他是可以獲得理賠的，但是他車上的乘客目前並沒有涵蓋在內，如果有需要，或者我們有開發其他的商品，或者未來納入，但是目前要讓被保險人知道，如果他覺得有需要幫他的乘客保無肇事責任的其他險種，就要請保險公司進行說明，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我想我們要加強說明商品承保的範圍，讓所有人知道，比如很多人都以為買的車險有包含乘客，其實並沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以很多的不幸事故都提醒我們可以去檢討跟精進。","最後這一題其實剛剛也有委員問到了，我們也是收到了很多的反映，譬如說金管會銀行局的裁罰標準，有人提到有很多都是糾正、糾正、糾正、糾正。我們來看一下從2025年開始到現在的這些，請問目前金管會跟銀行局對於銀行的違規事項，你們有什麼原則分別處置？譬如說是內稽內控、自行陳報還是外部稽查？查獲到的有什麼差別？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，也許同樣是挪用客戶存款這件事情，但是在整個的過程當中，比如說裁罰，本來我們過去就一直強力要求金融機構建立三道防線，這三道防線就是它自己有偵查、管控、修正的能力，如果這三道防線能夠合宜的舉行，而且它也做完接下來的防範，我們會看它的情況來給予，可能只是個糾正，但是如果穿透這個東西，而且是根本就渾然不覺，我剛才跟委員報告過，這時候我們就是要重罰，因為這是完全不一樣的東西，所以我剛才講過，不管是誰當主委，銀行局的標準一向都是如此。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，因為主席站起來了，我把它唸完。主委，自行發現、調查並主動陳報與外部稽查或金檢查獲的，兩者裁罰、流程及時程是有差別的，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然、當然！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，最後的結論有四點，剛才已經講過，不再一一說明。第一，請央行研議「主權基金最適切資金來源及管理機構」方案，並請提出你們的看法；第二，請財政部就房屋稅的相關疑義，包括剛才答復我的部分，也提供一個書面報告；第三，請金管會就所謂強車險的部分，在未來投保的告知或者未來可不可以增加相關的險種，給予無肇事責任車主及他的乘客有完整的保障；第四，你們對於金檢裁罰的相關規定，請做一個書面報告，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員的質詢。","我們就按照剛才的宣布，休息10分鐘，謝謝。","休息（11時8分）","繼續開會（11時19分）"],["主席（陳委員玉珍代）：請羅明才委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-13","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","林思銘","王世堅","林楚茵","廖先翔","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部、金融監督管理委員會、中央銀行就「房屋稅2.0課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39,"end":209.331,"text":"這個都是要跟國人交代清楚的所以我期望在這個專案報告裡面就是說你們評估報告裡面這些事情必須要交代清楚所以如果你剛才講資金來源那未來所以完全不會由外匯存底這邊來去做資金的來源之一嗎不會"},{"start":210.611,"end":214.094,"text":"這個是可以考慮的那副總裁我再問一個問題它的利率會不會低於未來外匯全體投資運用的報酬2.6%"},{"start":223.032,"end":239.739,"text":"因為主權基金它的投資的報酬率偏高但是它的也面臨很大的風險這跟外匯存體的操作是不一樣所以我提的是說央行有償借用的部分不得低於央行現在外匯存體的投資運用2.6"},{"start":241.892,"end":252.263,"text":"照理說是這樣子所以我剛剛一開始才提到就是說必須要有長波用那有長波用就得付利息啊你的利息就不能低於現在外匯城裡的投資運用的報酬2.6%"},{"start":254.515,"end":280.543,"text":"這個是我們以後在思考這種委外操作的時候我們有一個基本的標準那是不是適用在這個未來的國家主權之際我再提一次就是未來那個必須要成立專法不能求人兼裁判必須要有專責的主管機關如何不能無常撥用而且必須遵守聖地牙格的原則那如何防弊的部分我覺得也是整個央行要對外交代清楚好我時間先暫停"},{"start":282.424,"end":286.328,"text":"財化法的實施日期我們公告日期到底是幾月幾號哪一年什麼時候"},{"start":304.025,"end":318.281,"text":"這次修法通過的時間我記得是去年三讀通過後來總統公佈實施的日期修正實施的日期是什麼時候開始3月吧3月好那我就跟你講答案是114年的3月21號是今年對好是今年那"},{"start":324.287,"end":339.312,"text":"當時我記得卓榮泰院長提到復育3月再提出復育的時候報告也寫得很清楚他當時說公佈實施日期認為沒有準備的時間作為復育的理由所以很明確實施日期就是3月21號114年那部長我要提醒你就是法律的解釋"},{"start":345.074,"end":364.867,"text":"千萬不要當作政治工具如果當時才化法我們當時有寫一條就是說我們對於地方的補助不得低於前一年當時那個才化法有寫一個但書我不應該講但書裡面條文有寫得很清楚對於地方補助不能低於前一年"},{"start":365.487,"end":377.613,"text":"所以如果我們公告日期不是如果確定公告日期從當時的文字包括卓院長夫妻的理由都是公告日期都是114年3月21號所以他的基期就是前一年113年所以地方的補助應該是回歸到用113年來去做基期"},{"start":389.359,"end":409.792,"text":"所以這個部分我必須要提醒你們的所以未來在編列一般補助款的時候就不能隨便去做調整這是依法一般性補助款的編列是在主計總署我知道我知道但是我只是提醒你我只是提醒你們跟主計總署主計總署今天有來嗎"},{"start":411.493,"end":424.24,"text":"今天沒有主席總署我只是提醒你們這件事情法律上文字寫得很清楚而且有入法就是不得低於前一年時間先暫停部長你請回我請彭主委"},{"start":429.631,"end":450.439,"text":"主委因為時間一直在跑我今天議題非常多我另外一個就是我接受到陳情的有關於IPO的責任額我們目前ETF市場爆出IPO之亂那也引起很多音樂園也好寫了很多檢舉信函要終結IPO的暴力制度"},{"start":452.62,"end":471.027,"text":"主委你對於這件事情因為我知道幾個券商其實都對於內部的音樂園有給一些責任而的壓力那對於定責任而這件事情你的看法到底如何何不何什麼樣是一個合理的做法那我們如何去做一些調整或改善"},{"start":472.067,"end":487.634,"text":"報告委員,我想在所有的金融機構各行各業都一樣所有的業務單位定有責任額是非常普遍而且是非常常見的現象但責任額合不合理這件事情才是它的關鍵"},{"start":489.454,"end":515.591,"text":"我想這部分金融機構是受高度監禮行業我們收到的檢舉信以後我們也非常重視我們在第一時間在我們的業務會議上我們就討論過這件事情我們責成我們相關的各個業務局趕快去了解這個狀況有沒有涉及到一些勞政法規的違反還有就是我們講我們在有沒有做這樣會促進不當的所謂的銷售我們正在了解請他們再匯報這個想法你也會訂一個合理的標準出來"},{"start":516.071,"end":534.275,"text":"這個是牽涉到各個公司各自的營運但是我剛才講就是說責任的這件事情並不是新的東西我想大家都知道我理解各行各業他總是會定一個目標嘛KPI嘛但是怎麼樣因為我必須要提出說像去年00940一窩蜂的搶購我的意思就是說東西產品體質是好的是健康的"},{"start":538.436,"end":563.33,"text":"大家看得清清楚楚自然大家都會去買所以怎麼樣是一個合理的責任額那特別是我們現在整個金融產業面臨很多國際性的挑戰那這些營業員又要賣國內外的期貨又有相關的保險又有海外的債券要去做處理所以其實身心壓力也都蠻大的怎麼樣是一個健康的市場健康的工作環境"},{"start":565.872,"end":566.633,"text":"我們會盡快的來處理這件事情"},{"start":582.364,"end":595.556,"text":"所以會訂出一個比較合理的管控辦其實這個問題是非常每家公司的制度不一樣但是我們會先請相關的工會先用一個自律的方式去了解這件事情然後再訂出一個合理的規範"},{"start":596.411,"end":622.183,"text":"好 謝謝主委我第二個問題我要請問一下就是行員挪用前一陣子有何故富邦金 凱基銀行人員挪用客戶款項的這些問題那過去黃天牧黃主委他有過裁罰那我們最近這幾次我看到只有做糾正那糾正這個處分會不會太微不足道或者是我們有沒有其他的管控的辦法去加強"},{"start":623.263,"end":650.62,"text":"这些金融机构的内控的机制你有什么样的做法谢谢委员刚好也给我个机会来说明这件事情其实刚才举的说其实我们在过去历任组委其实对于我们所谓的挪用这样的一个事情其实都有不同的处理也都有采取非常多纠正的案例这个倒不是采取什么方式最重要我们的银行法的规定我们本来建制有三道机制"},{"start":651.32,"end":668.639,"text":"如果銀行在自己在第一到第二到就主動發現了這件事情那這是我們本來建立這個內控制度最重要的我們不會因為這樣而去處罰他而且他已經確實的去防止代表他的內控機制是穩健的我想立正主委的標準都一樣所以你個人覺得糾正就夠了不是"},{"start":669.199,"end":697.228,"text":"就是這個東西但是我跟委員報告如果說今天是已經穿透了三道防線比如說客戶來檢舉才知道像比如說很多人說這個案子為什麼過去罰得重這些是銀行他自己渾然不知到客戶發覺我的短掃的時候才來那當然即便你主動通報我照樣一樣是要處罰這我想這法上非常的明確只是假設把一個例子不當的比較我覺得不是很好我想我們都是依法辦理"},{"start":698.151,"end":721.897,"text":"我理解依法辦理但是未來如何不再有類似的狀況發生你這個機制只有糾正到底夠不夠我尊重我尊重因為每個人做法不一樣我們是要達到最好的內控不再發生類似的狀況發生所以我想要多去再做進步的事我們一向就是我們其實定規定是行其無形不是因為就是說我們會區分各種不同的樣態"},{"start":723.337,"end":745.135,"text":"對一個已經善盡自我管控的銀行這種微小的措施要主動舉報我們當然是鼓勵這個 比如說他們要所以你可以用很多不同的彈性就對了沒有 這個本來法規就有很明確的規定不能用最終的結果說這個叫做糾正叫輕 這個叫罰叫重其實如果仔細研究案情都是不一樣的好 謝謝主委謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝李委員的質詢下面請周委員質詢總經理委員請"},{"start":755.128,"end":758.78,"text":"響鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":718,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時43分）謝謝召委，我是不是可以先請央行的副總裁？"],["主席：嚴副總裁請。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：副總裁，我就直接就我的議題請教，在總質詢的時候我也曾經跟卓院長討論過成立主權基金，果然在520這一天賴總統就有特別提到主權基金的問題。當時我在總質詢的時候有特別提到，到底評估報告什麼時候會出來？整個央行的評估報告到底什麼時候可以給我？你們當時有承諾要給我評估報告，是一個月還是三個月？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，這個我還是要回去問一下，我今天就會給您一個答案。"],["李委員彥秀：我再請問你，昨天賴總統講到主權基金這件事情，我個人是支持的，但是賴總統在講這件事情，你們都沒有一個評估報告出來跟總統報告嗎？這個對國家的正面效益，或者是我們要如何做，我想你們應該還是有個整體評估報告吧？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：報告委員，從歷任的政府，我們對這個問題都有做交代。"],["李委員彥秀：總統不會沒有評估報告就丟出來！我希望三個月之內把完整詳細的評估報告給我，因為這個主權基金我相信，在國外許多國家其實都運作地非常好，但是如何維持它的獨立性跟防弊性，我覺得這是國人、大家都關注的。另外，賴總統昨天說了，我們何時會成立？是一年、兩年？有沒有時間表？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：這個還是要由整個行政院再討論才能確定，因為還涉及到修法、專法的設置這些問題。"],["李委員彥秀：好，您個人認為到底未來這個基金的部分是來自外匯存底，還是四大基金？從您的專業部分來看。"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我想楊總裁在5月8號的報告已經很明確點出我們對這個問題的看法。"],["李委員彥秀：內容是什麼？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：基本上，它有三種方式，財政部發債、撥款，或者是出資，這是我們可以看到……"],["李委員彥秀：財政部出資……"],["嚴副總裁宗大：我們主要參考新加坡和韓國的經驗……"],["李委員彥秀：所以不會動到外匯存底，也不會動到四大基金？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：四大……"],["李委員彥秀：所以也不會有減持美債的問題？都沒有？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：這是細節的問題。"],["李委員彥秀：這不是細節的問題……"],["嚴副總裁宗大：因為四大基金有它的法源，它自己在運作中。"],["李委員彥秀：資源的來源很重要，我當時在總質詢的時候有特別提到，對於主權基金這件事情，未來一定要成立專法。第二，政府不能球員兼裁判。第三，要符合、遵守聖地牙哥原則，也就是說，資金來源必須要由整個政府統籌規劃，而且不能無償撥用，這些大原則只是讓基金運作能維持它的獨立性，而國人和這兩天媒體更關注的，就是主權基金在很多國家運作得很好，持正面態度，但是國人擔心的是如何防弊，包括未來會不會變成第二個鐽震案，或者是未來如何防止它變成黨權基金，這個都是要跟國人交代清楚的，所以我期望在專案報告裡面、你們的評估報告裡面，這些事情必須要交代清楚。所以你剛才講的資金來源，未來完全不會由外匯存底去做為資金的來源之一嗎？不會？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：這個是可以考慮的，因為在韓國的case……"],["李委員彥秀：副總裁，我再問一個問題，它的利率會不會低於未來外匯存底投資運用的報酬2.6%？"],["嚴副總裁宗大：主權基金投資的報酬率偏高，但是也面臨很大的風險，這跟外匯存底的操作是不一樣，因為我們講……"],["李委員彥秀：我提的是央行有償借用的部分不得低於央行現在外匯存底的投資運用2.6%，照理說是這樣子，所以我剛才一開始提到必須要有償撥用，而有償撥用就得付利息，你的利息就不能低於現在外匯存底投資運用的報酬2.6%啊！"],["嚴副總裁宗大：這個是我們以後在思考這種委外操作的時候，我們有一個基本的標準，是不是適用在未來的國家主權基金……"],["李委員彥秀：好，我再提一次，未來必須要成立專法，不能球員兼裁判，必須要有專責的主管機關，不能無償撥用，而且必須遵守聖地牙哥原則，至於如何防弊的部分，我覺得也是央行要對外交代清楚。好，時間先暫停，副總裁請回，我請莊部長。"],["主席：財政部莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：部長好。財劃法的實施日期，到底我們公告日期是幾月幾號？哪一年、什麼時候？"],["莊部長翠雲：這一次修法通過的時間，我記得是去年三讀通過，後來總統……"],["李委員彥秀：修正後公布實施的日期是什麼時候開始？"],["莊部長翠雲：3月吧！"],["李委員彥秀：好，我就跟你講答案，是114年的3月21號。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，今年3月。"],["李委員彥秀：對，是今年，當時我記得卓榮泰院長3月提出覆議時報告也寫得很清楚，他當時說公布施行日期沒有考量準備的時間，以此作為覆議的理由。所以很明確的，實施日期就是114年3月21號，部長，我要提醒你法律的解釋千萬不要當作政治工具，我們當時對財劃法有寫一個但書，我們對於地方的補助不得低於前一年……我不應該講但書，但裡面條文寫得很清楚，對於地方補助不能低於前一年，所以我們確定公告日期從當時的文字，包括卓院長覆議的理由，公告日期都是114年3月21號，所以它的基期就是前一年113年，地方的補助應該是回歸到用113年去做基期。所以這個部分我必須要提醒你們，未來在編列一般補助款的時候就不能隨便去做調整，這是依法……"],["莊部長翠雲：一般性補助款的編列是在主計總處。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，但是我只是提醒你，我只是提醒你們跟主計總處，主計總處今天有來嗎？今天沒有主計總處，好，我只是提醒你們這件事情，法律上文字寫得很清楚而且有入法，就是不得低於前一年。好，時間先暫停，部長請回，我請彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，因為時間一直在跑，而我今天議題非常多。另外一個問題就是我接受到陳情有關於IPO責任額，目前ETF市場爆出IPO之亂，也引起很多營業員寫了很多檢舉信函要「終結IPO制度暴力」。主委，你對於這件事情，因為我知道幾個券商其實都對於內部的營業員有給一些責任額的壓力，對於訂責任額這件事情，你的看法到底如何？什麼樣是一個合理的作法？我們如何去做一些調整或改善？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，在所有的金融機構，我想各行各業都一樣，所有的業務單位訂有責任額是非常普遍而且是非常常見的現象，但責任額合不合理這件事情才是關鍵。因為金融機構是受高度監理的行業，我們收到檢舉信以後也非常重視，我們在第一時間的業務會議上就討論過這件事情，也責成相關各個業務局趕快去了解這個狀況，看有沒有涉及到一些勞政法規的違反，還有這樣有沒有促進不當的銷售，我們在正在了解，請他們再匯報相關……"],["李委員彥秀：你也會訂一個合理的標準出來，是不是？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，這個是牽涉到各個公司各自的營運，但是我剛才講的，責任額這件事情並不是新的東西，我想大家都知道……"],["李委員彥秀：我理解各行各業總是會訂一個目標、KPI嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，當然。"],["李委員彥秀：但是怎麼樣……我必須要提像去年00940一窩蜂的搶購，我的意思是說東西產品體質是好的、是健康的，大家看得清清楚楚自然都會去買，所以怎麼樣是一個合理的責任額？特別我們現在整個金融產業面臨很多國際性的挑戰，這些營業員又要賣國內外的期貨，又有相關的保險，又有海外的債券要去做處理，所以其實身心壓力也都蠻大的……"],["彭主任委員金隆：那當然。"],["李委員彥秀：怎麼樣是一個健康的市場？健康的工作環境？合理的責任額……"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，所以我們已經去函他們相關的公會，請它好好去檢討這件事情，研議一個比較合理的共同遊戲規則。"],["李委員彥秀：什麼時候會給我答案？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們現在應該已經發文給他們了，在星期四吧！我們會儘快地來處理這件事情。"],["李委員彥秀：所以會訂出一個比較合理的管控辦法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：應該這樣講，其實這個問題每家公司的制度不一樣，但是我們會請相關的公會先用一個自律的方式去了解這件事情，然後再訂出一個合理的規範。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝主委。第二個問題，我要請問行員挪用，前一陣子有合庫、富邦金、凱基銀行人員挪用客戶款項的這些問題。過去黃天牧主委有過裁罰，但最近這幾次我看到你們只有做糾正，而糾正這個處分會不會太微不足道？或者我們有沒有其他管控的辦法去加強這些金融機構內控的機制？你有什麼樣的作法？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員剛好也給我一個機會來說明這件事情，剛才說歷任主委過去對於所謂挪用這樣一個事情，其實都有不同的處理，也都有採取非常多糾正的案例。這個倒不是採取什麼方式，最重要是我們銀行法的規定，我們本來建置有三道機制，如果銀行自己在第一道、第二道就主動發現了這件事情，這是我們本來建立內控制度最重要的，我們不會因為這樣而去處罰它，而且它已經確實的去防止，代表內控機制是穩健的，我想歷任主委的標準都一樣。"],["李委員彥秀：所以你個人覺得糾正就夠了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，這個東西……"],["李委員彥秀：不會再發生了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我跟委員報告，如果今天是已經穿透了三道防線，比如客戶來檢舉才知道，像很多人說這個案子為什麼過去罰得重？這些是銀行自己渾然不知，到客戶發覺自己短少的時候才來，那當然了，即便你主動通報，我照樣一樣是要處罰，法上非常的明確，只是把一個假設的例子做不當的比較，我覺得不是很好，我想我們都是依法辦理。"],["李委員彥秀：我理解依法辦理，但是未來如何不再有類似的狀況發生，這個機制只有糾正到底夠不夠？我尊重，因為每個人做法不一樣，我們是要達到最好的內控，不再有類似的狀況發生，所以我想要多再做進一步的思考。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，我們其實一向訂規定是「刑期無刑」啦！因為我們會區分各種不同的樣態，對一個已經善盡自我管控的銀行，這種微小的錯而且他們主動舉報，我們當然是鼓勵……比如健全這個制度……"],["李委員彥秀：所以你給予很多不同的彈性就對了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，本來法規就有很明確的規定，不能用最終的結果說這個糾正叫輕、那個罰叫重，其實如果仔細研究案情都是不一樣的。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李委員的質詢。","下一位請鍾委員質詢，鍾佳濱委員請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":380,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-13","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","羅明才","李坤城","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","林思銘","王世堅","林楚茵","廖先翔","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷"],"page_start":299,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部、金融監督管理委員會、中央銀行就「房屋稅2.0課徵亂象與金融機構對不動產\n融資緊縮及中央銀行信用管制措施對房地產交易之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中\n華民國 114 年度中央政府總預算決議有關金融監督管理委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案 39 案；\n三、處理中華民國114年度中央政府總預算決議有關金融監督管理委員會主管預算凍結專案報告\n案9案","agenda_id":"1145101_00008"}}},{"id":"161707","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161707","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db6055ba8fbdce2f16cdb65d50a7385bb6db0f420b3783afbd858267200b5a9bf45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:49:18 - 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絕對是依法行政"},{"start":252.597,"end":279.077,"text":"但是並不代表說發生這麼遺憾的事情我們就沒有改進的空間我想今天立法院已經是我們國家的最重要的一個機構那這也顯示說其實我們不管怎麼樣都要根據法來做因為法才能夠保障最多數人的權益第二個是只要依法來做才不會有"},{"start":279.577,"end":296.627,"text":"好 那現在就把事情我們釐清啦您台大醫院發生這個性騷的案件不管是醫生啦各個角落都會發生啦各個單位都會發生啦 你有一萬多個元額或加上你們新竹啊 加上雲林啊 嘎嘎我們就萬人啊 萬五六個啊"},{"start":299.429,"end":325.531,"text":"那你們自己有一個信憑委員會嘛有嘛 議員表嘛那信憑委員會有做出決議之後是不是就把這個案子也送直接送台北市議事公會然後台北市議事公會有一個委員會嘛他開會說要送懲戒因為應該是由委員會來決定嘛你不能說你吳院長你爽你就給他拍板定那不可能的事情嘛"},{"start":326.292,"end":338.977,"text":"那我們的林市長更沒有資格講了 對不對你在衛福部你是獨島單位嘛所以你還要上社會局 還要上台北市議事館 也很奇怪啊所以你還不能一個流程喔 市長流程比較簡化的 你還要怎麼做不是只有議事啊 到處都會 議會到處都會發生啊"},{"start":349.97,"end":374.463,"text":"報告委員 其實我們也因為這個事情我們目前正在檢討接下來就是包含各醫事人員的部分是不是要有一個比較明確因為它散在各個法裡面但是我們還是藉這個機會再強調因為我們醫事司也有相關的業務就是對於性騷擾防治的宣導所以不論是在性平三法內部修法之後已經給予這個主管機關以及相關負責人的權限這個部分其實應該是可以充分運用"},{"start":375.163,"end":390.749,"text":"那再來的話就是剛剛提到的醫師懲戒這邊我們也希望說懲戒委員會能夠就是開醫師懲戒的這個會上能夠考慮到醫師在整個社會尤其是接觸病人這件事情上面道德上應該有的要求跟標準應該要更嚴格"},{"start":392.634,"end":417.895,"text":"所以你們的性評委員應該有職責也要這個案子要不要送懲戒就你們自己去決定然後再譬如說你們台北市醫師公會台北市藥師公會台北市什麼公會他們在接受這個案子之後他們在開會要不要懲戒要上幾個小時要停職要停職職業半年等等那是他們的職責啊"},{"start":418.996,"end":427.886,"text":"然後結果再反給你們嘛那個是行政上跟懲戒上的處罰那自己刑責上 那是刑責上那個遙遙無期啊破到來的婚姻啊 對不對這樣是不是可以走"},{"start":434.934,"end":453.393,"text":"謝謝委員指導一條明路啦這個確實是我們這樣最簡單啦最明確啦而且我們其實那個性評委員會也有外部的委員不是都是議員有律師啊有教授社工人社會人士嘛等等嘛所以這樣會比較明快啦不然的話每次人家講這個我講不清啊講不清楚啊講到次長次長就講"},{"start":459.682,"end":482.812,"text":"我們還是希望我們當然是說在法律是法律是道德的最低底線那醫事人員尤其醫師我相信教委也是這樣想法就醫師我們事實上在那個道德的要求尤其是如果就是所侵害的對象就是自己的病患的話我相信這個是我們大家所不能容許的而且那個婦產科要是高危險科"},{"start":484.522,"end":505.812,"text":"那也在藉這個機會補充就是說那你也是部長對阿所以會很生氣那當然其實在我們這個門診隱私維護的這個規範裡面本來就有要求在跟病患接觸的過程中要保障病人隱私那另外的話也要有對於病人一定程度的這些保障包含說可能要有其他人的陪伴等等"},{"start":506.372,"end":529.469,"text":"所以这个事实上在现有的法规内部我还是在强调现有法规是最低标准那大家我想在不论是在主管机关或者是在这个所职业单位医院的主管等等都可以援引现有的性平三法还有医师法跟医师承接办法但是在行为还有整个在运作的过程我想委员也知道住院医师如果是住院医师还在受训的过程"},{"start":530.61,"end":546.539,"text":"這個其實老師對他我們要給你什麼樣我在訓練上面要額外要求你什麼事實上是還有一定程度的權限而且現在的住院醫師要去考專科醫師之前還有一本這個訓練的護照他要完成相關的這些訓練才能夠去考專科那在這個過程裡面如果師長認為你"},{"start":548.16,"end":567.419,"text":"在這個所謂應該學這些護照還學的不夠或者是我沒有讓你完成我因為我認為你必須要暫停你的學習來做其他的調查或者是重新把你的能力建立起來那事實上還是有一定的工具可以做啦還是可以要約束力啦好那我另外吳院長你請回我請次次長"},{"start":571.96,"end":597.815,"text":"現在很多單位來反映就是物理治療師OT、PT、藥師連醫師第一階段考試的錄取率都很低尤其是我給他看OT跟PT最近幾年的考照及格率都不到20%不到20%那我們教育的目的訓練的目的一般是"},{"start":599.955,"end":607.143,"text":"訓練從嚴 考試從寬要嘛就是訓練從寬 考試從嚴那現在長照3.0要開始了 需要這麼多人有這些書 現在要把中醫中藥商都把他幹掉"},{"start":616.687,"end":643.127,"text":"那需要更多的藥師 還有中藥的學分補足等等那你藥師的考週率也都不低這個就有點有點奇怪奇怪的餒 次長這是要怎麼解決啦謝謝委員關切啦因為第一個事情我們接下來面對高齡跟少子化本來人力上面就會逐漸的遇到這個挑戰那也謝謝委員提到這件事情"},{"start":643.627,"end":665.158,"text":"那我自己以前是立委的時候其實我就注意過這個然後他包含幾個這個是前面的教考用嗎交的有沒有符合臨床的需求這點當然我們會持續來跟教育部來做這個討論因為這個是在教育部的權責第二個就是考那其實過去在考試院的考試裡面有一部分臨床的人員也反映過科企業"},{"start":666.098,"end":666.118,"text":"對啦"},{"start":692.944,"end":697.911,"text":"我現在看醫師考試的砲案,第一階段在考,那個題目很淺淺的,專科醫師考試的題目這樣你要讓委員那麼厲害,命題委員那麼厲害,我來出給他考,我保證他不及格"},{"start":709.892,"end":731.782,"text":"那有這樣幹的啦藥師也是一樣啊8萬的考試考到這麼基礎的藥理都考到那麼難我是覺得有點吹毛求疵有點故意整人所以這個市長你現在跟考選部要的要合啊那像護理他也現在多考一次嘛是護理多考一次那其他的都考兩次啊"},{"start":732.862,"end":751.549,"text":"當然我們在兼顧這個專技人員的品質上面我們還是得要求啦但是我們也希望他考試訓考能夠符合臨床的需求對啦 當然這是一定要追求要有教但是那邊當然比較刁蘭課的12% 課到小孩都要有信心去啦現在小孩子又不像我們現在小孩子要用鼓勵的薄熟的 帶著素絲的 怎麼會沒有這樣一直發 一直發 大家都課不過去我覺得 我也接受這種 市長"},{"start":762.194,"end":764.305,"text":"好 最後來拍片了 好不好謝謝 我有關注 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":642,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時49分）謝謝主席，我請次長還有臺大醫院院長。"],["主席：請次長跟臺大醫院吳院長。"],["林次長靜儀：委員好。"],["主席：次長辛苦了。吳院長已經被叫來第二次了，辛苦了。"],["吳院長明賢：謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：我問吳院長，你們臺大醫院員工現在的員額是多少人？"],["吳院長明賢：我們自己的，包括公職加約聘有八千多位，但是我們還有外包人員大概三千多，所以大概是1萬1到1萬2左右。"],["蘇委員清泉：1萬1啦，包括新竹這些分院？"],["吳院長明賢：都沒有，新竹……"],["蘇委員清泉：只有單單臺大總院？"],["吳院長明賢：總院。"],["蘇委員清泉：嚇死人。那你的主管，你都認識嗎？"],["吳院長明賢：醫療的主管跟醫師的主管基本上都……"],["蘇委員清泉：主管家裡的人或者家裡的狀況，你知道嗎？"],["吳院長明賢：某些可能知道，某些沒有。"],["蘇委員清泉：對嘛！以這些主管級來說就好了，你對他們個人的性別傾向、性格、能力……能力應該知道啦！其他的你要去了解，我看也非常難。所以柏克萊大學的校長講一句話，說他們學校的那些教職員，他只有管脖子以上，腦袋瓜比較重要，對國家要有貢獻，你的看法是怎樣？"],["吳院長明賢：我管理我的這些行政主管，一般來講，我們可以從法的層次、跟情、跟禮的層次，我同意我只能就我們看得到，而且法有規定的這一部分，我是可以做。我常常跟我們同仁講，在臺大醫院，即使我做到院長，也都跟任何一個機構一樣，我不是私人的，所以我必須要有法可依、有法可循，而且我要依法行政，最後一個是違法必究，所以這16字是我自己在做院長時對自己的期許，我對所有主管也會是這樣的要求。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你也是屬於臺北市衛生局管轄嘛？"],["吳院長明賢：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以一下子要跳到衛福部也是很奇怪啦！所以醫師性騷真的有刑事責任嗎？很重嗎？"],["吳院長明賢：在現在還沒有修法以前，它就是用性平三法裡面的……都是行政處罰，還有……"],["蘇委員清泉：對，他刑事上如果還沒有判刑，你這邊可以給他解職嗎？"],["吳院長明賢：沒辦法。"],["蘇委員清泉：你沒那個權力嘛！他會告你。"],["吳院長明賢：我沒那個權力，法律也是要保障受害者的部分……"],["蘇委員清泉：然後衛生局這邊、醫師公會要送他懲戒與否，是誰來界定？是林靜儀交辦，就把他抓去，是這樣嗎？"],["吳院長明賢：不是，我們有一個很清楚，醫師假如真的……","根據醫師法第二十五條規定，他移付懲戒的發動主體是醫師公會或主管機關，所以只有醫師公會或衛生局可以。"],["蘇委員清泉：那醫師公會要處理，是要你們送還是誰要送？沒人送啊！"],["吳院長明賢：所以現在是可以主動送，根據還沒有修法的性平三法，其實我們要送的主管單位是社會局，所以之前大家關心的幾個案子，我們也都是根據這樣子去送，因為發生的時候是還沒有修性平三法之前，所以我們絕對是依法行政，但是並不代表發生這麼遺憾的事情，我們就沒有改進的空間。今天立法院已經是我們國家最重要的一個機構，這也顯示我們不管怎麼樣都要根據法來做，因為法才能夠保障最多數人的權益。","第二個，只有依法來做，才不會……有些人可能……沒有程序正義。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，我們現在就把事情釐清，臺大醫院發生這個性騷的案件，不管是醫生，各個角落都會發生，各個單位都會發生，你有一萬多個員額，加上你們新竹、加上雲林，加起來二萬五、六千人，你們自己有一個性平委員會嘛？有嘛？醫院有嘛？"],["吳院長明賢：有。"],["蘇委員清泉：性平委員會做出決議之後，是不是就直接把這個案子送臺北市醫師公會，然後臺北市醫師公會有一個committee，它開會說要送懲戒，應該是由委員會來決定嘛？不能說你吳院長，你爽，你就給他拍板，那不可能的事情嘛！"],["吳院長明賢：不可能。"],["蘇委員清泉：那林次長更沒有資格講，對不對？你在衛福部，你是督導單位，所以你再送社會局、再送臺北市醫師公會也很奇怪啊！所以次長，你們可不可以把流程比較簡化一點，你以後要怎麼做？不是只有醫師，醫院到處都會發生。"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，其實我們也因為這個事情，目前正在檢討，接下來是包含各醫事人員的部分是不是要有一個比較明確的規定，因為它散在各個法裡面。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，沒錯。"],["林次長靜儀：但是我們還是藉這個機會再強調，因為我們醫事司也有相關的業務，就是對於性騷擾防治的宣導，所以不論是在性平三法內部修法之後，已經給予主管機關以及相關負責人的權限，這個部分其實應該是可以充分運用。再來的話就是剛剛提到的醫師懲戒這邊，我們也希望懲戒委員會能夠……就是開醫師懲戒的會上，能夠考慮到醫師在整個社會，尤其是接觸病人這件事情上面，道德上應該有的要求跟標準應該要更嚴格。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你們的性平委員會應該要有職責也要有動作，即這個案子要不要送懲戒，就你們自己去決定，譬如說臺北市醫師公會、臺北市藥師公會、臺北市什麼公會，他們在接受這個案子之後，他們開會討論要不要懲戒、要上幾個小時、要停職、要停止執業半年等等，那個是他們的職責，然後結果再返給你們，那個是行政上跟懲戒上的處罰，至於刑責的部分遙遙無期，判下來就昏過去了，對不對？是不是可以這樣做？"],["吳院長明賢：謝謝委員指導一條明路，這個確實是我們……"],["蘇委員清泉：這樣最簡單、最明確啦！不然……"],["吳院長明賢：對，而且我們的性平委員會也有外部委員，不是都是醫院的人……"],["蘇委員清泉：有律師、有教授、社工、社會人士等等嘛？所以這樣會比較明快，不然的話，每次人家講這個，我都講不清啊！都講不清楚，問到次長，次長就說要懲戒。"],["林次長靜儀：法律是道德的最低底線，醫事人員、尤其醫師，我相信召委的想法也是這樣，對於醫師，我們事實上在道德的要求，尤其侵害的對象就是自己的病患的話，我相信這個是我們大家所不能容許的。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，而且婦產科又是高危險科啦！"],["林次長靜儀：也再藉這個機會補充……"],["蘇委員清泉：你也是婦產科。"],["林次長靜儀：對啊，所以會很生氣。當然，在門診隱私維護的規範裡面，本來就有要求在跟病患接觸的過程中，要保障病人隱私，另外，對於病人也要有一定程度的保障，包含可能要有其他人的陪伴等等。所以事實上在現有的法規內部，我還是再強調，現有法規是最低標準，不論是在主管機關或者是在執業單位、醫院的主管等等，都可以援引現有的性平三法還有醫師法跟醫師懲戒辦法，但是在行為還有整個運作的過程。我想委員也知道，如果住院醫師還在受訓的過程，其實老師對他在訓練上面額外要求他什麼，事實上還是有一定程度的權限，而且現在的住院醫師要去考專科醫師之前還有一本訓練的護照，他要完成相關的這些訓練，才能夠去考專科。在這個過程裡面，如果師長認為他所謂應該學的這些護照還學得不夠，或者是他沒有讓他完成，因為他認為他必須要暫停他的學習，來做其他的調查，或者是重新把他的能力建立起來，事實上還是有一定的工具可以做啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：還是可以有約束力啦！好，吳院長請回，我請次長。","現在很多單位反映物理治療師、OT、PT、藥師、連醫師第一階段考試的錄取率都很低，尤其OT跟PT最近幾年的考照及格率都不到20%，不到20%耶！"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們教育訓練的目的一般是訓練從嚴、考試從寬，要嘛就是訓練從寬、考試從嚴。現在長照3.0要開始了，需要這麼多人，藥劑師現在要把中醫、中藥商都幹掉，需要更多的藥師還有中藥的學分要補足等等，但你藥師的考照率也那麼低，這個有點奇怪、奇怪的，次長，這是要怎麼解決啦？"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員關切。第一個，我們接下來面對高齡跟少子化，本來人力上面就會逐漸遇到這個挑戰，也謝謝委員提到這件事情。我自己以前是立委的時候，其實我就有注意過這個，包含幾個部分：第一個是前面的教考用，教的有沒有符合臨床的需求，這點當然我們會持續跟教育部來討論，因為這是在教育部的權責。第二個就是考，其實過去在考試院的考試裡面，有一部分臨床的人員也反映過考試有沒有符合臨床需求，還有考試的內容有沒有跟他原來在教的內容有串聯、扣上，這件事情也是第二個必須要去處理的。當然我們也希望在整個訓考用的訓練裡面，考試的題目要能夠儘量符合現場的需求，但站在衛福部的立場，他如果考到執照了之後，我們儘量把這些人留在職場。"],["蘇委員清泉：對啦，我現在看醫師考試的part 1第一階段的題目，那個題目很深，那個深到是專科醫師考試的題目了，現在命題委員那麼厲害，我來出給他考，我保證他不及格，哪有這樣幹的啦！藥師也是一樣啊，part 1的考試，這麼基礎的藥理都考到那麼難，我是覺得有點吹毛求疵，有點故意整人，次長，你們現在跟考選部就要好好的……"],["林次長靜儀：我們會持續再跟考選部還有教育部溝通。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在護理也多考一次？"],["林次長靜儀：是，護理是現在多考一次。"],["蘇委員清泉：那其他都是考兩次啊。"],["林次長靜儀：當然，在兼顧專技人員的品質上面，我們還是得要求啦，但是我們也希望他訓考能夠符合臨床的需求。"],["蘇委員清泉：對啦，當然水準一定要夠，但是你不能刁難，考那十幾%，孩子都考到快沒信心了啦，現在小孩子又不像我們，現在小孩子用鼓勵的才會覺得舒適，不然他這樣一直「灰」一直「灰」，大家都考不過，我覺得我無法接受這種情況。次長，一起來努力，好不好？"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝，謝謝委員關注。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：好，謝謝涂委員。","接續由涂委員質詢，他質詢完畢休息8分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":138,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-12","speakers":["蘇清泉","林月琴","陳昭姿","徐巧芯","盧縣一","黃國昌","劉建國","涂權吉","林淑芬","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","郭昱晴","黃秀芳","洪孟楷","張啓楷","范雲","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","楊曜","賴惠員","葉元之","王育敏","陳冠廷","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","黃捷"],"page_start":43,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145201_00002"}}},{"id":"161706","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161706","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db3fadb7adbff8e4e532bc34272b9029b3db0f420b3783afbdfad46ac425924a0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:47:02 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感謝兩位在今天列席報告對我們兩岸就複雜的情勢 除了國安還有經貿風險外我們兩岸民間來往的婚姻家庭也是相關三百萬家庭的福利的議題"},{"start":46.995,"end":52.158,"text":"所以我們在看到的母親節的期間我們陸委會內政部還有海基會高調的舉辦說母親節陸配關懷活動對外宣稱就是溫馨關懷但此時此刻同時也有大量的陸配就是陸籍配因為無法三個月內補交三次中國戶籍的證明"},{"start":76.431,"end":80.054,"text":"面臨處級導致生活的中斷還有政府一邊高喊溫馨的關懷一邊卻處級來政治清算這種一邊送慷慨心一邊剝奪他們記住台灣這個身份所以這個是政治性的羞辱因為這些媽媽不管是外配還是陸配他們母親節都快樂不起來"},{"start":105.236,"end":133.184,"text":"因為呢一個就會擔心身份就失去了另外一個不知道我們政府什麼時候又再清算所以我們要請教一下目前已經有多少人因此被處級還有又有多少人進入補件的階段還有我們的部分陸配因為年老經濟困難或者中國當局不配合"},{"start":133.804,"end":152.684,"text":"仍處於補件的困境三個月時程很短但是中國行政效力下許多人就是難以取得證明所以我們要這個申請還有這些的案件現在目前處理得如何"},{"start":154.841,"end":184.481,"text":"好 謝謝委員 首先跟委員報告我們這個母親節的活動當然真的是關懷我們陸配所有在台生活這是我們例行都會做的事情第二個我也要跟委員您剛剛說我們請陸配為了維護他的合法的身份請他把這個儲籍拿回來叫清算我們不同意這種說法"},{"start":185.341,"end":208.156,"text":"這個是在羞辱我們服務陸配的公務人員的努力我們都在協助我們的陸配試想我們的目標就是讓他們安居樂業他們沒有合法的身份怎麼安居樂業我想所有的陸配並沒有委員講那個三個月內就受到除籍的只要跟我們"},{"start":209.383,"end":228.459,"text":"移民署跟我們海基會跟我們陸委會聯繫我們都會來協助他來協助他達成剛剛委員有問說我們就是之前的資深這些陸配那麼具有這個雙重戶籍被註銷的人我們從以往這個累計是有1192人"},{"start":235.925,"end":259.726,"text":"那我也要跟您報告就是說您有提到就是這次呢我們清查就是在2004年3月1號這些人他們已經繳付上次原期證明了有1784件就是他們也配合政府然後他們自己去放棄了已經有這些那"},{"start":260.507,"end":268.58,"text":"我們跟我們申請拒絕的可能現在比較不方便也有從公佈方案4月21號以來到520有880件"},{"start":273.058,"end":294.546,"text":"申請延後附錄的也有352件那反映其他的爭議的問題我們說各種的疑難雜症都可以跟我們反映也有485件那麼這些每一個件我們都會專案的協助跟輔導並沒有委員所說的在給他"},{"start":295.747,"end":312.159,"text":"主委是有做了所以我們也看到有這些問題但是因為我們民間團體現在目前很多人在反應我們要第一個就是"},{"start":313.8,"end":316.601,"text":"第一個對陸配就是請送回去第二個就馬上就是有這些的問題但是直接是我們要取得台灣的身份"},{"start":327.324,"end":352.853,"text":"我們是政府的規定來取的這個是政府規定不是我們像我們外配我們直接就是你要拿到放棄國籍你才能拿到台灣身份證對不對但是這個行政作業是你們的疏忽所以變成你們的疏忽現在你們叫後面再來去清查清算所以我們就覺得說沒有清算"},{"start":353.553,"end":370.15,"text":"我們都在關懷協助輔導但是因為大家都感覺是這樣因為一路發生的事情讓大家就是仇在我們也跟大部分的陸配團體有聯繫他們都很感謝政府的協助你們要去查資料大部分的陸配也都是非常"},{"start":370.771,"end":386.281,"text":"我還沒有找你回應等一下再換你回應因為有很多你們現在的資料為什麼以前不查今年又再查出來查出來了又要給的不只是送給小孩子而已媽媽一起送"},{"start":387.782,"end":392.284,"text":"所以變成這些資料是你們寄 移民署寄就變成大家覺得說我的個資又是不是又外洩了 也有收到一些簡訊所以這個是大家在心惶惶還有很多的拿到身份證了 沒有收到你們寄過來的他們也不清楚說他們已經被處級還是沒有被處級如果他們沒有收到 就變成說是不是"},{"start":413.755,"end":416.517,"text":"我三個月我就要被錢送所以這個種種的產生的問題所以我們是因為這樣呢我們就是在我們發生的當天我們就有就是新二代為了母親他們就是公開的去懲罰"},{"start":435.063,"end":448.332,"text":"當5月10號我們新住民的團體姐妹們他們母親節前一天他們也公開的陳情到現在新住民的團體與新二代的團體多次陳情"},{"start":451.474,"end":479.625,"text":"所以呢也批评我们政策造成就是家庭的分裂还有就是制度的歧视所以我们希望说这个放宽或者是说我们有没有一个专职的窗口让他们真正的觉得是说居住台湾大家是把我们是当作台湾人自己的家人的真的是要协助不要说他们的连新二代我们台湾之子"},{"start":480.205,"end":493.378,"text":"他們都站出來了新住民也站出來了我們不能說不讀不回或者不要給他們回應這樣子我們就是辦個活動這樣子就做一個形象還是說真的是對他們好嗎我們希望我們陸委會這邊真的是真正的落實為我們居住台灣我們是台灣人的幫助"},{"start":504.713,"end":528.16,"text":"是 謝謝委員我想我們做的這個目標跟您的一樣就是希望台灣能夠成為所有新住民安居樂業的新故鄉那至於這個事情包括您提到那個二代有很多的反應他們也有到入委會我們也剛剛說明他們都很支持我們政府的做法當然委員有提到那個就是他各種心理的"},{"start":528.86,"end":550.255,"text":"恐慌或是不知道不知所措這個只要跟我們包括我們常說這個我們海基會是陸配永遠的娘家我們各地的移民署是我們陸配家庭的依靠我們陸委會就是陸配的後盾不要跟我們講就不會有你那個擔心更沒有歧視的問題只有關心輔導服務"},{"start":556.479,"end":559.081,"text":"輔導是別人來求救但是因為產生主委我覺得是說我們不管是新二代還是陸配是他們來求救你處理我們希望的你主動因為已經你們的行政錯誤"},{"start":575.651,"end":580.073,"text":"導致這些事情擦身你們應該聽我講吧應該你們要去辦就是論壇或者說明會邀請他們一起來跟你們面對面來去對談我覺得對大家比較有幫助我們好幾場的說明會都已經在"},{"start":594.18,"end":596.984,"text":"預計要舉行了好幾場什麼時候因為他們還是在我們城市還有在北中南各地都會舉辦好我希望你們就是要管先讓更多人來知道說這樣子的事好"},{"start":609.799,"end":613.8,"text":"接下來 好 你已經在辦了 所以我希望你把這些資料給我接下來我要問的海基會我們在報告中多次強調就是協助兩岸民眾的緊急事件但是當我們的工作重心之一包含就是辦護照啊 病危啊 就是滴流這些在台的這些事件"},{"start":634.547,"end":654.224,"text":"都是我们的玄关人命的基本权利的第一线的需求但是我目前我们政府在两岸就紧张的停摆之下我们在基本就是二十四紧急专线却在今年三月"},{"start":656.745,"end":679.451,"text":"縮減成為還有12個小時所以我要請教一下若民眾深夜發生事情急難的事情或者像突發的病狀還有家屬深夜就是要對岸的求救的時候我們要等明天再來打電話嗎這樣的服務是及時應變嗎我們是希望我們的董事長因為希望你來幫忙我們這一塊"},{"start":685.578,"end":704.589,"text":"很坦白跟委員這個答覆24小時的專線33年沒有斷過最近才改成12個小時為什麼呢因為我們的預算4塊錢被你們刪掉剩下3塊那是不是改成12小時之後要等明天再打沒有我們有錄音"},{"start":712.725,"end":730.635,"text":"那隔天一早馬上答覆對方這是不得已的措施請你們了解新聞這樣子我們不但20小時專項這樣子改啦我們很多活動只好取消啊我們連送每一個董事生日的花都取消剩下一張卡片"},{"start":732.151,"end":735.113,"text":"謝謝我們董事長救命專線比董事的生日還重要但是你覺得董事的生日來去比對我覺得我們的人命關天我們就是說隱隱今天中風明天才急救這樣子就會是說我們錄音純正就是打電話進來所以我們還機會過去強調"},{"start":760.513,"end":769.362,"text":"人道精神還有及時應變 如今卻唯一救命的專線的時效急救的專線變成現實的專線 現實的服務就違背我們的海賊會的精神還有宗旨原則不變 裡面的錢變了"},{"start":784.842,"end":789.304,"text":"現在問題我們的服務我們的服務量我們在停擺啊我們要不是說有一些急迫性的我們要去處理沒有我們要急迫性的使你不是說行政判斷出了問題我們民眾需要的是什麼我們要去講我們民眾的需要的是什麼因為現在兩岸"},{"start":810.092,"end":815.291,"text":"馬路不通但是唯一的救命專線也不通了"},{"start":816.28,"end":820.822,"text":"這樣我們兩岸關係的但是你說就減一塊錢但是你的生日的來去來去把它比對我真的是聽了很難過啊我們一個專線救命的馬路不通了我們專線還來把它停掉還有12個小時說我們義大利人員不加薪真的我覺得真的是董事長我覺得是真的如果說"},{"start":845.714,"end":858.008,"text":"沒辦法求救的裝線多要去關的話我們覺得說我們海基會這樣子的價值是什麼啊董事長真的我聽起來真的很難過跟委員報告一下就是"},{"start":862.113,"end":874.87,"text":"24小時服務專線雖然現在只有12個小時但是8點半之後我們還是有這個保全可以來直接接通我們的服務的人員而且我們每天都有控管半夜的這個服務的狀況是什麼叫做緊急專線是是"},{"start":877.614,"end":881.096,"text":"緊急啦人家要中風為什麼緊急專線啊不是說我們有錄音明天八點再處理中風的人已經沒了啦你們講這個真的聽不下去了"},{"start":896.173,"end":913.381,"text":"對的確這方面我們這個叫做緊急專線啦緊急專線只有12個小時什麼叫做緊急專線我真的是聽不下去我們希望就是從陸配的除籍的正義還有"},{"start":914.621,"end":939.996,"text":"還有其他就是現在我們的就是海基會我們希望我們要去做的是我們馬路現在都停擺了我們的專線希望要有這個功能才能幫助到我們兩岸關係的國人的幫助所以我們希望說不管是我們人民的交代對我們的國會的負責希望兩位要跨部會的來去協調"},{"start":944.938,"end":952.596,"text":"幫助到我們的國民謝謝因為時間有限不用讓你們回答你們素面給我可以嗎希望你們怕不會來去處理謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":507,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（10時47分）謝謝主席。有請邱主委，還有吳董事長。"],["主席：請邱主委、吳董事長。"],["邱主任委員垂正：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，主委好。感謝兩位今天列席報告，對於複雜的兩岸情勢，除了國安還有經貿風險外，兩岸民間婚姻家庭的來往也是事關300萬家庭的福利議題。我們看到母親節期間，陸委會、內政部還有海基會高調舉辦母親節陸配關懷活動，對外宣稱溫馨關懷，但此時此刻，同時也有大量的陸配，就是陸籍配偶，因為無法在3個月內補交喪失中國戶籍的證明而面臨除籍，導致生活的中斷。政府一邊高喊溫情的關懷，一邊卻除籍來政治清算，等於一邊送康乃馨，一邊剝奪他們居住臺灣的身分，這個是政治性的羞辱，因為這些媽媽不管是外配還是陸配，他們的母親節都快樂不起來，一方面擔心身分失去，另外一方面是不知道政府什麼時候又再清算，所以我們要請教一下，目前已經有多少人因此被除籍？還有又有多少人進入補件的階段？部分陸配因為年老、經濟困難，或者中國當局不配合，仍處於補件的困境，3個月時期很短，在中國的行政效率下，許多人就是難以取得證明，所以要申請的這些案件，目前處理的情形如何？"],["邱主任委員垂正：好，謝謝委員。首先跟委員報告，我們母親節的活動當然真的是關懷所有陸配的在臺生活，這是我們例行都會做的事情。第二個，我也要跟委員表示，您剛剛說我們針對陸配為了維護他合法的身分，請他把除籍拿回來叫「清算」，我們不同意這種說法，這個是在羞辱所有服務陸配的公務人員的努力，我們都在協助陸配，試想，我們的目標就是讓他們安居樂業，他們沒有合法的身分，怎麼安居樂業？我想所有的陸配並沒有委員講的3個月內就受到除籍的，只要跟移民署、海基會及陸委會聯繫，我們都會來協助他達成。","剛剛委員有問說，之前這些資深陸配具有雙重戶籍被註銷的人，從以往累計有1,192人，我也要跟您報告，這次我們清查的從2004年3月1號起的這些人，已經繳付喪失原籍證明的有1,784件，他們也配合政府，自己去放棄的已經有這些件數，而跟我們申請具結，可能現在比較不方便的，從4月21號公布方案以來到520，也有880件，申請延後赴陸的也有352件，另外反映其他爭議的問題，因為我們說各種疑難雜症都可以跟我們反映，這類件數也有485件，這些每一件我們都會專案協助跟輔導，並沒有委員所說的再給他各種的清算，這個絕對沒有這樣做。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，主委真的是有做，所以我們也看到有這些問題，但是因為民間團體目前很多人在反映，第一個，對陸配就是遣送回去。第二個，馬上有這些的問題，但是我們取得臺灣的身分是依政府的規定取得，這個是政府的規定，像我們外配就是直接要放棄國籍，才能拿到臺灣身分證，對不對？但是這個行政作業是你們的疏忽，所以現在變成是因為你們的疏忽，後面再來清查、清算，所以我們就覺得說……"],["邱主任委員垂正：沒有清算，我們都在關懷、協助、輔導。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是大家都感覺是這樣，因為一路發生的事情，讓大家就是處在……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們也跟大部分的陸配團體有聯繫，他們都很感謝政府的協助。"],["麥委員玉珍：因為你們要去查資料……"],["邱主任委員垂正：大部分的陸配也都非常配合政府的作業。"],["麥委員玉珍：我還沒有找你回應，等一下再換你回應。"],["邱主任委員垂正：好，謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：因為有很多你們現在的資料，為什麼以前不查，今年又再查？查出來了，要給的不只是送給小孩子而已，媽媽一起送，所以變成這些資料是你們寄、移民署寄，讓大家覺得個資是不是又外洩了？而且又收到一些簡訊，所以大家人心惶惶。還有很多是拿到身分證的，但沒有收到你們寄過來的，他們也不清楚自己已經被除籍或沒有被除籍，如果他們沒有收到，是不是變成3個月就要被遣送？這種種產生的問題，因為這樣，在事情發生的當天，就有新二代為了母親公開去陳情。在5月10號──母親節前一天，我們新住民的團體姐妹們也公開的陳情，現在新住民的團體與新二代的團體多次陳情，也批評我們的政策造成家庭分裂，還有制度的歧視，所以我們希望將這部分放寬，或是我們有沒有一個專職的窗口，讓他們真正覺得居住在臺灣，大家把他們當作臺灣人、自己的家人，真的是要協助，不要連新二代、我們臺灣之子都站出來了，新住民也站出來了，你們不能不讀不回或者不給他們回應，然後辦個活動，就只是做一個形象，這樣子是真的對他們好嗎？我們希望陸委會這邊能真正的落實，因為我們居住在臺灣，我們是臺灣人的幫助。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，謝謝委員，我想我們做的目標跟您的一樣，就是希望臺灣能夠成為所有新住民安居樂業的新故鄉。至於這個事情，包括你提到那個二代有很多的反映，他們也有到陸委會，我們也有跟他們說明，他們都很支持政府的作法。委員有提到他們各種心理的恐慌或是不知所措，我們常常說海基會是陸配永遠的娘家，各地的移民署是陸配家庭的依靠，我們陸委會就是陸配的後盾……"],["麥委員玉珍：主委，我的時間有限，我知道你想做很多事情，但是我希望你要公開……"],["邱主任委員垂正：只要跟我們講，就不會有你那個擔心，更沒有歧視的問題，只有關心、輔導、服務、解決問題。"],["麥委員玉珍：輔導是別人來求救，但是因為產生……"],["邱主任委員垂正：沒有求救。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，主委，我覺得不管是新二代還是陸配，是他們來求救然後你處理，我們希望你主動，因為你們的行政錯誤導致這些事情發生，你們應該……"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告……"],["麥委員玉珍：聽我講完，你們應該要去辦論壇或者說明會，邀請他們一起來跟你們面對面進行對談，我覺得這樣對大家比較有幫助。"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，我們都已經預計要舉行好幾場說明會了……"],["麥委員玉珍：你說好幾場，是在什麼時候？因為他們還是有在跟我陳情。"],["邱主任委員垂正：明天開始有第一場，我們在北中南各地都會舉辦，因為我們要主動出去……"],["麥委員玉珍：好，我希望你們要廣宣讓更多人知道有這樣子的協助。"],["邱主任委員垂正：好，一定的。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，你已經在辦了，所以我希望你把這些資料送給我。"],["邱主任委員垂正：好。"],["麥委員玉珍：接下來我要問海基會，你們在報告中多次強調協助兩岸民眾的緊急事件，你們的工作重心就是包含辦護照、病危、居留等在臺的這些事件，都是攸關我們人民基本權利的第一線需求，但是目前政府在兩岸緊張、停擺的狀況下，我們基本的24小時緊急專線卻在今年3月縮減成只有12個小時，所以我要請教一下，若民眾在深夜發生急難的事情，或者像突發病症，還有家屬深夜就是有對岸的事情要求救的時候，我們要等明天再來打電話嗎？這樣的服務是即時應變嗎？我們希望吳董事長來幫忙我們這一塊。"],["吳董事長豊山：很坦白跟委員答復，24小時的專線33年沒有斷過，到最近才改成12個小時，為什麼呢？因為我們的預算4塊錢被你們刪掉後剩下3塊。好，那是不是在改成12小時之後就要等明天再打？沒有，我們有錄音，在隔天一早會馬上答復對方，這是不得已的措施，請你們了解是因為這樣子，我們不但是24小時專線這樣子改了，我們很多活動都只好取消，我們連在每一個董事生日時送花都取消了，只剩下送一張卡片，如果你能夠把凍結的部分恢復，我們就會24小時，好不好？"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝董事長，救命專線比董事的生日還重要啊！你用董事的生日來相比，我覺得人命關天，雖然你說有錄音……"],["吳董事長豊山：不是，我的意思是說一、二、三、四、五、六，我們都把它弄掉……"],["麥委員玉珍：你說打電話進來，你們有錄音存證，難道是我今天中風了，等明天才急救？海基會過去強調人道精神還有即時應變，如今唯一救命的專線、急救的專線卻變成限時的專線、限時的服務……"],["吳董事長豊山：那是立法委員變成這個樣子，是貴院把它變成這個樣子。"],["麥委員玉珍：就違背海基會的精神及宗旨，我們感覺是這樣子。"],["吳董事長豊山：精神不變、原則不變，你們的錢變了。"],["麥委員玉珍：現在的問題是，我們的服務及服務量在停擺，有一些急迫性的要去處理，有急迫性的時候，不是說行政判斷出了問題，而是民眾需要的是什麼？我們要去注意民眾的需要是什麼，因為現在兩岸馬路不通，而唯一的救命專線也不通，這樣我們兩岸關係的……"],["吳董事長豊山：我們要通啊！你們把錢恢復，我們就恢復24小時啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：但是你說只有減1塊錢，你用生日卡片與此事做比對，我聽了真的是很難過，一個救命的專線……"],["吳董事長豊山：我比你更難過啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：馬路不通了……"],["吳董事長豊山：我們被刪掉的東西是一大堆啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：專線還被停掉，只有12個小時……"],["吳董事長豊山：我們一大堆人員不加薪耶！"],["麥委員玉珍：董事長，如果求救的專線都要關掉的話，那海基會的價值是什麼啊？我聽起來真的很難過。"],["吳董事長豊山：價值有變動，這是經費的問題。"],["黎副秘書長寶文：抱歉，跟委員報告一下，24小時服務專線雖然現在只有12個小時，但是8點半之後還是有保全可以直接接通我們的服務人員，而且每天都有控管半夜的服務狀況。"],["麥委員玉珍：什麼叫做緊急專線？"],["黎副秘書長寶文：是，但是……"],["麥委員玉珍：急救啦！人中風時要急救，緊急專線……"],["黎副秘書長寶文：但是我們的服務不會中斷，我們仍然有輪值的主管可以在當時馬上處理……"],["麥委員玉珍：不是說有錄音等到明天8點再處理……"],["黎副秘書長寶文：如果委員需要的話，我們可以馬上給您做報告。"],["麥委員玉珍：中風的人已經沒了啦！"],["黎副秘書長寶文：沒有、沒有……"],["麥委員玉珍：你們講這樣我真的都聽不下去了。"],["黎副秘書長寶文：我們每天都有管控相關的狀況，跟委員做報告，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員，急難救助沒有問題。"],["黎副秘書長寶文：的確，這方面我們……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們陸委會會守護國人。"],["麥委員玉珍：這個叫做緊急專線，但只有12個小時，什麼叫做緊急專線？我真的是聽不下去。從陸配的除籍爭議，以及海基會的部分，我們希望你們要去做的是，馬路現在都停擺了，我們希望要有專線的功能，才能幫助到兩岸關係的國人，不管是對人民的交代或是對國會的負責，希望兩位要跨部會協調，幫助我們的國民，謝謝。因為時間有限，你們不用回答，請提供書面給我，可以嗎？希望你們能跨部會處理，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時3分）","繼續開會（11時11分）"],["主席（麥委員玉珍代）：我們繼續開會。","接下來請牛煦庭召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-20","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","李坤城","邱志偉","陳雪生","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145101_00006"}}},{"id":"161705","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161705","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db26a2c7b924a38f3632bc34272b9029b3db0f420b3783afbd3802b37089afccb55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:32:07 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謝謝主席 我們請主委邱主委有請黃委員好主委好 首先來跟進前面幾位委員的這個議題喔因為我知道說現在陸委會正在查處大概二十幾位的藝人是希望說他們不要來唱賀中國然後為中國來宣傳"},{"start":27.322,"end":56.038,"text":"那但是呢其實前幾天有幾位委員在另外一個委員會已經有問到了那目前問到是說你們會根據兩岸條例33之1的這個紅線然後你們查處的標準是如果按照它的頻率以及它的嚴重性來決定要不要開罰然後會有兩個紅線嘛一個是說言論有明確表達要消滅台灣主權或是有涉及武統的言論第二個紅線是說破壞自由民主的憲政秩序"},{"start":56.718,"end":60.499,"text":"那其實我認為這兩個紅線目前看起來還是不夠明確的我認為應該要更明確的告訴所有的不管是藝人、網紅還是任何要到中國去交流然後去表演的這一些公眾人物他們都應該要有所依循才對當然我很認同陸委會接下來要給予他們的理由是說不要讓他們身不由己"},{"start":84.384,"end":87.449,"text":"不要讓他們去中國在發表這些言論或是轉發相關的圖卡的時候無所依循因為連我們自己國內如果都沒有辦法給出他們這個標準就等於是他們沒有後盾去跟中共說我們不要做這件事情嘛"},{"start":100.108,"end":113.573,"text":"對 我認為這個基礎是很好只是說我認為紅線的這個剛剛說的這兩條紅線應該要更加明確這個才讓藝人或是所有的公眾人物他們去到中國的時候才有所依循啊而不是說現在這兩條看起來還是有一點"},{"start":116.494,"end":124.076,"text":"不夠明確而且是可能變成說33之一裡面的合作行為沒有明確的規範導致他們沒有辦法就變得有點漫無邊際擔心說會不會做了這件事情講了這句話又變成觸犯我們的兩岸條例所以我在這邊是明確的建議陸委會接下來應該要讓紅線更明確才可以實質保障國人的權益"},{"start":141.365,"end":166.194,"text":"是 謝謝委員 我想我們對在中國大陸發展的藝人我們尊重我們國人的各種言論自由包括他對文化 對血緣的選擇 我們都尊重只不過我們對有一些言行包括消滅中華民國 矮化台灣甚至鼓吹配合中國大陸武統"},{"start":167.614,"end":192.579,"text":"那我們對這些言論當然就是我們社會都引起極大的反彈反感跟不齒當然很多的檢舉案就進來那我們對這些我們關注的就是大家看我們用兩條例33條之一是跟中國大陸黨政軍的合作行為我們試想他們往往在特定時刻一起集體的"},{"start":197.182,"end":209.825,"text":"表達各種矮化台灣共同的說法或者是一起轉發類似的圖卡這個背後都是有一個力量在逼迫他們對在中國的他們生日的時候都會有台灣的藝人集體轉發祝祖國生日快樂那其實在前天我們副主委沈副主委他有提到說如果單純轉發其實是不算的"},{"start":227.969,"end":250.805,"text":"我想我們單純轉發會以這個比較尊重個人言論自由但是集體轉發就是我們強調的合作行為這個合作行為具有主觀跟客觀的要件都符合所以我們就是想透過這次跟文化部這個行政查處去了解這種合作行為背後的合作行為是不存在"},{"start":251.925,"end":276.066,"text":"因為如果未經我們政府的許可你是不得跟中國大陸黨政軍有任何形式的合作行為我們是用這個查處然後再來去跟他關切跟提醒關懷的部分當然我們知道他們在中國大陸是不是有遭到什麼經濟公司或是遭到怎麼樣的外力脅迫逼他們去政治表態他個人有沒有這個意願"},{"start":279.389,"end":301.906,"text":"因為一般來說只要是台灣人都有那種飲水思源照顧故鄉的這種本質那怎麼回過頭來傷害自己的國家還要栽培他的社會這個我們要去調查原委那是怎麼樣造成的所以這個我們還是要有查處的行為之後才能夠了解事實真相"},{"start":302.566,"end":331.223,"text":"那另外我們也透過這次的查處關懷他在中國大陸可能生存不易我們台灣其實是在整個就是表演的空間的自由是比中國大陸更優越加上我們文化部有很多很好的機會可以提供藝人來發展如果他可以可以回到台灣來更重要的我們這個查處的作為也在挺我們的藝人他可以跟對岸說我們政府已經在"},{"start":331.823,"end":332.964,"text":"那我不得再轉發這些事情了"},{"start":361.943,"end":365.225,"text":"入委會這個要加以說明就例如說我剛剛講的如果有一些藝人除了藝人轉發圖卡這種事情還有例如台灣的名嘴啊他們就會說統戰有什麼關係包括之前已經好幾個名嘴什麼謝寒冰趙少康都講過嘛那這種算不算那另外一種就是說如果像我們的台灣的立委"},{"start":384.033,"end":400.933,"text":"他們去跟中國跟一些中共的幹部見面然後可能有涉及一些有違國家利益國家安全的行為甚至說他們代表中央政府要去跟中國假設啦他們說已經現在富坤起已經說他代表中央政府了嘛但如果他去跑去跟中共說要簽一些協議"},{"start":403.496,"end":416.905,"text":"可能和平協議或什麼協議那這種算不算跟中國黨政局有明確的合作行為跟委員報告這個是更嚴重的情形這是違反兩條例第五條之一如果情節"},{"start":418.647,"end":438.346,"text":"更重的話還有刑罰的問題那這個部分我們也查查他嘴巴這麼說但是並沒有簽署協議如果有的話那就是明顯違反我們兩條第五條之一這個是比較重度的各種處罰"},{"start":439.468,"end":458.459,"text":"好所以我是希望啦我剛剛講的這個33條之一的內容到底是什麼可不可以再請陸委會之後再提供書面然後也在你們之後的記者會更明確的讓大家知道如何避免誤觸紅線這個非常重要那再來幫我放一下投影片下一個"},{"start":459.059,"end":468.786,"text":"那我講一下這個剛好我們陳玉珍委員也在現場這個就是我想要問的請問海峽兩岸論壇在你們的定義當中已經是明確中共對台的統戰平台對嗎"},{"start":471.736,"end":497.05,"text":"是包括因為我們雖然是參加邀請方但是沒有台灣的主體性都是由他安排他的統戰框架跟宣傳這個是我這邊提供一下去年有出席兩岸論壇的名單包括中國國民黨的副主席連聖文然後中國國民黨的雲林縣長張立善還有我們在座的陳玉珍委員蘇星泉委員還有台灣民眾黨的中央委員還有"},{"start":501.272,"end":528.262,"text":"新党的主席还有金门的副县长全部都跑去了这个两岸海峡的论坛那我想问的是你们目前只有建议他们不要出席那有没有更明确的做法就例如说你们现在要求自己中央部会跟所属的单位人士不能出席禁止以任何形式参加但是对于地方政府以及像地方的民代中央的民代他们出席了"},{"start":529.002,"end":547.073,"text":"你們有沒有一些可不可以要求他們申報或者是說許可或者是說你們公告這一些出席的名單至少做到揭露的義務讓大家知道說我們台灣就是有這麼多的黨公職正在出席中共的這樣的統戰論壇"},{"start":550.351,"end":567.579,"text":"跟委員報告我們這次對於海峽論壇的這個原則的處理呢就是您剛提到的就是對於地方政府由原本的不樂見前往一直到最近要建議地方政府不予參加"},{"start":568.96,"end":583.142,"text":"就是不同意參加海峽論壇那也希望他的所屬去參加海峽論壇呢也不以同意那我們給出比較明確的建議是因為過去有很多的地方政府反映因為我們"},{"start":584.224,"end":612.656,"text":"提到這個不樂見他們說這比較模糊那很多地方政府也跟我說要明確一點如果說我們說不建議他們去他至少在中國大陸很多邀約他說我們政府可以推遲對他可以推遲要給他們推遲後段的理由那更重要是因為由於沒有主體性你們都在看中國大陸有沒有透過海峽論壇釋出給地方政府的一些善意其實他這個都是區別對待"},{"start":614.016,"end":636.715,"text":"進行對於我們的分化的統戰事實上我們看到這幾年連善意也沒有口惠而死不至所以越來越多的地方政府也不想去了他有說希望我們政府就講明確一點那我們這次就建議他們不要去但是如果一定要去的我們也希望能夠要遵守兩岸的相關規定"},{"start":638.016,"end":665.748,"text":"希望在對等尊嚴那也要注意社會的觀感剛剛委員提的很好就是說我們提很多社會很重視政治人物去參加這個統戰活動那民眾會非常的高度的關注所以我們也希望有建議一定要去的人要注意社會觀感要注意國際視聽來確保能努力維護台灣的整體利益至少要申報或是提供去"},{"start":667.489,"end":685.616,"text":"這個出訪的行程呢目前申報的只有有限的這些特定要按照兩岸條例第九條的規定來申報那像目前我們也是希望那是不是至少要求這個有公職身份的包括說地方縣市首長是還有政府人員但是還有包括民代"},{"start":690.038,"end":696.145,"text":"包括議員包括立委包括里長如果他們要出席這個都已經被你們定義是對台統戰的這樣的平台的海峽兩岸論壇那他們出席這樣的活動難道不需要申報行程嗎是跟委員報告以你這張表"},{"start":705.276,"end":729.901,"text":"像縣市首長、直轄市長、政務官都要跟我們申報至於立法委員是沒有我們也嘗試的去修法不過因為立委前往他肩負的很多選民的這種期許也會被高度關注加上海峽論壇也有很多媒體所以都會被揭露"},{"start":730.501,"end":756.557,"text":"那有許多的政黨人士會前往不管怎麼樣去參加這個海峽論壇這種統戰的活動我們都希望能夠遵守兩岸的條例能夠共同維護台灣整體的利益能夠對等尊嚴那麼不要太附和他們統戰的說法這個對國人是明星世紀這種打擊"},{"start":757.518,"end":770.434,"text":"那我們也希望他要重視社會觀感這很重要謝謝主委我相信這個就是講給我們台下的陳昀臻委員聽的啦那最後不好意思再給我一分鐘好不好最後一頁"},{"start":771.783,"end":775.546,"text":"這個我這邊提供兩個案子我這邊接到兩個澄清案一個是我們文藻外語大學他們有學校的學務的組長他們直接在學校跟學生推薦這個上海的參訪團然後只要2500塊就可以去七天然後可以住四到五星級的飯店然後還有說這個就是邀請學生學生一起來參與"},{"start":799.082,"end":815.619,"text":"那另外一個是在立志中學裡面也是有這樣的群組的訊息在散步當中包括說去上海蘇州然後對像是對科學文化有興趣的全台高中生然後備註說如果小學畢業之後就沒有去過中國內陸的同學會優先錄取那請問這兩則訊息是不是很明顯的統戰交流團"},{"start":822.245,"end":842.318,"text":"我想應該是相當明確,那我們陸委會最近也因為暑假快到了,類似中國大陸的這種邀請案、交流案我們認為如果不是對等尊嚴的,不是符合這個教育部規範,我們就把這些個案依請教育部趕快處理"},{"start":843.398,"end":866.776,"text":"好這兩岸其實我都已請了那只是我想要在這邊建議陸委會接下來沒錯像你說的暑假要到了這種以學術或者是以宗教為名的兩岸交流團非常多但是如何協助學校跟這一些公廟去辨識它是不是統戰團這個我要拜託陸委會接下來也請你們給我書面報告以及在你們所有的公開平台上面"},{"start":867.697,"end":884.636,"text":"協助所有的這些地方單位不管是學校還是什麼宗教還是任何的他們以文化為名的交流團但實質是統戰團的請他們讓他們知道怎麼辨識讓他們知道怎麼去預防好不好好這是我們職責所在我們全力以赴謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":471,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時32分）好，謝謝主席，我們請主委。"],["主席：邱主委有請。"],["邱主任委員垂正：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：主委好。首先跟進前面幾位委員的議題，因為我知道現在陸委會正在查處大概二十幾位藝人，希望他們不要唱和中國、為中國宣傳，但是前幾天有幾位委員已經在另外一個委員會問到你們會根據兩岸條例第三十三條之一的這個紅線，查處的標準是按照頻率以及嚴重性來決定要不要開罰。這部分會有兩個紅線，一個是言論有明確表達要消滅臺灣主權或是有涉及武統，第二個紅線是破壞自由民主的憲政秩序。其實我認為這兩個紅線目前看起來還是不夠明確，應該要更明確的告訴所有的不管是藝人、網紅，還是任何要到中國交流、表演的公眾人物，他們都應該要有所依循才對。當然我很認同陸委會接下來給他們的理由是說，不要讓他們身不由己，不要讓他們去中國在發表這些言論或是轉發相關圖卡的時候無所依循，因為如果連我們國內都沒有辦法給出標準，等於是讓他們沒有後盾去跟中共說他們不要做這件事情。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：我認為這個基礎是很好，只是剛剛說的這兩條紅線應該要更加明確，才能讓藝人或是所有的公眾人物到中國的時候有所依循，而不是現在呈現這兩條有不夠明確的情況，而且可能變成第三十三條之一裡面的合作行為沒有明確規範，導致他們變得有點漫無邊際，擔心會不會做了這件事情、講了這句話，又觸犯了我們的兩岸條例，所以我明確的建議陸委會接下來應該要讓紅線更明確，才可以實質保障國人的權益。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，謝謝委員。對於在中國大陸發展的藝人，我們尊重國人的各種言論自由，包括對文化、對血緣的選擇我們都尊重，只不過對於某些言行，包括消滅中華民國、矮化臺灣，甚至鼓吹、配合中國大陸武統，這些言論當然都引起社會極大的反彈、反感跟不齒，所以很多的檢舉案就進來。這些我們關注的言論依據兩岸條例第三十三條之一，是屬於跟中國大陸黨政軍合作的行為，我們試想，他們往往在特定時刻一起、集體、共同表達各種矮化臺灣的說法或者轉發類似的圖卡，背後都是有一個力量在逼迫他們。"],["黃委員捷：那這個我就要問了，例如每次中國生日的時候都會有臺灣的藝人集體轉發「祝祖國生日快樂」，前天沈副主委有提到，如果單純轉發，其實是不算的，是這樣子嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對於單純轉發，我們會尊重個人言論自由，但集體轉發，就是我們強調的合作行為，這種合作行為符合主觀跟客觀的要件，所以我們想透過這次跟文化部的行政查處去了解，背後的合作行為是不是存在。因為未經政府許可，不得跟中國大陸的黨政軍有任何形式的合作行為，我們是用查處來關切跟提醒他。至於關懷的部分，當然我們想知道他們在中國大陸是不是有遭到什麼經紀公司，或是遭到怎麼樣的外力脅迫……"],["黃委員捷：威脅或者是查水表等等的。"],["邱主任委員垂正：逼著他們去政治表態，究竟他個人有沒有這個意願？一般來說，只要是臺灣人都有飲水思源、照顧故鄉的這一種本質，怎麼會回過頭來傷害自己的國家和栽培他的社會？因此我們要去調查原委，看是怎麼樣造成的，所以我們還是要有查處的行為之後，才能夠了解事實真相。另外，我們也透過這一次的查處關懷，因為在中國大陸可能生存不易，臺灣整個表演的空間自由比中國大陸更優越，加上文化部有很多很好的機會可以提供藝人發展，如果他願意，可以回到臺灣。更重要的是，這個查處的作為也是在挺我們的藝人，讓他可以跟對岸說，政府已經在查處了，他不得再轉發這些事情。"],["黃委員捷：是，我就是認為你們應該要給出一些具體的行為規範，避免這些藝人誤觸統戰的紅線，也要給他們後盾、給他們理由，讓他們有理由拒絕中共，這個非常重要！剛剛講到第三十三條之一的解釋，中國黨政軍的合作行為到底是什麼？我希望陸委會要加以說明。"],["邱主任委員垂正：會的。"],["黃委員捷：例如我剛剛講的，除了藝人轉發圖卡這種事情，還有例如臺灣的名嘴會說統戰有什麼關係，之前已經有好幾個名嘴，包括謝寒冰、趙少康都講過，這種算不算？另外一種就是像臺灣的立委，跟中國、中共的一些幹部見面，可能涉及一些有違國家利益、國家安全的行為，甚至說他們代表中央政府要去跟中國……雖然這是假設，但現在傅崐萁已經說他代表中央政府了，如果他跑去跟中共說要簽一些協議，可能和平協議或什麼協議，這種算不算跟中國黨政軍有明確的合作行為？"],["邱主任委員垂正：這個是更嚴重的情形。這是違反兩岸條例第五條之一，如果情節更重，還有刑罰的問題，這個部分我們也會查察，雖然他嘴巴這麼說，但是並沒有簽署協議。如果有的話，那就是明顯違反兩岸條例第五條之一，有比較重度的各種處罰。"],["黃委員捷：我希望我剛剛講的第三十三條之一的內容到底是什麼，可不可以請陸委會之後再提供書面？也在你們之後的記者會更明確讓大家知道，如何避免誤觸紅線，這個非常重要！","再來，剛好陳玉珍委員也在現場，這個就是我想要問的，請問海峽兩岸論壇在你們的定義當中已經明確是中共對臺的統戰平臺，對嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。我們雖然是受邀參加，但是沒有臺灣的主體性，都是由它安排好它的統戰框架跟宣傳。"],["黃委員捷：我提供一下去年有出席兩岸論壇的名單，包括中國國民黨的副主席連勝文、中國國民黨的雲林縣長張麗善、在座的陳玉珍委員、蘇清泉委員、台灣民眾黨的中央委員、新黨的主席，還有金門的副縣長，全部都跑去兩岸海峽論壇。我想問的是，你們目前只有建議他們不要出席，有沒有更明確的作法？例如你們現在要求中央部會跟所屬單位人員不能出席、禁止以任何形式參加，但是對於地方政府以及地方的民代、中央的民代出席了，你們可不可以要求他們申報或者許可，又或者是公告這一些出席的名單，至少做到揭露的義務，讓大家知道臺灣就是有這麼多的黨公職正在出席中共這樣的統戰論壇？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們這一次對於海峽論壇的處理原則就是您剛剛提到的，對於地方政府，由原本的不樂見前往，一直到最近要建議地方政府不予參加，就是不同意參加海峽論壇，也希望他對所屬要參加海峽論壇也不予同意。我們給出比較明確的建議是因為過去有很多地方政府反映，我們提到不樂見，他們說這比較模糊，很多地方政府也跟我們說要明確一點。如果我們說不建議他們去，至少中國大陸很多邀約，他可以說我們的政府不……"],["黃委員捷：他可以推辭嘛？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，他可以推辭。"],["黃委員捷：要給他們推辭的後盾跟理由。"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，給他推辭的原因。更重要的是由於沒有主體性，你們都在看中國大陸有沒有透過海峽論壇給地方政府釋出一些善意，其實這個都是區別對待，是對我們進行分化的統戰。事實上，我們看到這幾年連善意也沒有，口惠而實不至，所以越來越多的地方政府也不想去了，他們有說希望政府就講明確一點，而我們這次就建議他們不要去。如果一定要去，我們也希望能夠遵守兩岸的相關規定，希望是對等尊嚴，也要注意社會的觀感。剛剛委員提的也很好，社會很重視政治人物去參加這個統戰活動，民眾會非常的高度關注，所以我們也建議一定要去的人，要注意社會觀感、國際視聽，確保能努力維護臺灣的整體利益。"],["黃委員捷：可不可以要求他們至少要申報或是提供出訪的行程呢？"],["邱主任委員垂正：目前只有有限的、特定的要按照兩岸條例第九條規定來申報，我們也希望……"],["黃委員捷：那是不是至少要求有公職身分的，包括地方縣市首長還有政府人員，這個是本來就要，還包括議員、立委等民代及里長，如果他們要出席都已經被你們定義是對臺統戰平臺的海峽兩岸論壇，他們出席這樣的活動難道不需要申報行程嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：以委員這張表，像縣市首長、直轄市長、政務官都要跟我們申報，至於立法委員是沒有，我們也嘗試修法。不過立委肩負著很多選民的期許，他前往也會被高度關注，加上海峽論壇有很多媒體，所以都會被揭露。雖然有許多的政黨人士會前往，但不管怎麼樣，參加海峽論壇這種統戰的活動，我們都希望能夠遵守兩岸條例，共同維護臺灣整體的利益，也能夠對等尊嚴，不要太附和他們統戰的說法，否則對民心士氣是一種打擊。我們也希望他們要重視社會觀感，這很重要。謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝主委。我相信這個就是講給臺下的陳玉珍委員聽的。","最後，不好意思，再給我1分鐘，好不好？看最後一頁，我這邊提供兩個案子，我接到兩個陳情案，一個是文藻外語大學，他們有學校的學務組長直接在學校跟學生推薦上海的參訪團，只要2,500塊就可以去7天，可以住4到5星級的飯店，邀請學生一起來參與；另外一個是在立志中學裡面也是有這樣的群組訊息在散布當中，包括去上海蘇州，對象是對科學文化有興趣的全臺高中生，備註說如果小學畢業之後就沒有去過中國內陸的同學會優先錄取，請問這兩則訊息是不是很明顯的統戰交流團？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想應該是相當明確，最近也因為暑假快到了，類似中國大陸的這種邀請案、交流案，陸委會認為，如果不是對等尊嚴的、不符合教育部規範的，我們會把類似這些個案移請教育部趕快處理，我們呼籲……"],["黃委員捷：好，這兩案其實我都移請了，只是我想要在這邊建議陸委會，沒錯，接下來就像你說的，暑假要到了，這種以學術或者是以宗教為名的兩岸交流團非常多，但是如何協助學校跟這一些宮廟去辨識它是不是統戰團，這部分我要拜託陸委會，接下來也請你們給我書面報告，以及在你們所有的公開平臺上面協助這些地方單位，不管是學校還是宗教，針對任何以文化為名的交流團，但實質是統戰團的，要讓他們知道怎麼辨識，讓他們知道怎麼去預防，好不好？"],["邱主任委員垂正：好，這是我們職責所在，我們全力以赴，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝主委，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，看來我們今天質詢的時間好像給得短了一點，請大家把握時間，好不好？","下一位我們請麥玉珍委員質詢。麥玉珍委員質詢完之後，休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-20","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","李坤城","邱志偉","陳雪生","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145101_00006"}}},{"id":"161704","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161704","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7dba3cea929de97cbfb32bc34272b9029b3db0f420b3783afbdb513ca0ae132d6fb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:21:39 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文說得很好其實我們願意跟中國大陸進行這個對等尊嚴 健康有序的交流但是海峽論壇我們沒有主體性都是要設計好的一個統戰的一個框架所以我們是不適合我沒有說你們這個不對我想要我們跟一般人其實我們不排斥他其實有時候他的心可能是跟我們的心一樣只是他在那種極"},{"start":203.064,"end":217.602,"text":"那種極權的政治的情況之下他不敢啊那就是威權統治啊對不對所以像這個我認為啦就像主委說的啦把他說的明確一點讓大家有這個"},{"start":219.005,"end":230.945,"text":"可以是說我也可以大膽跟你講就不行啊我就不能去啊這樣不就好了我覺得反而是更好的而且要讓他們知道共產黨啊他是到處騙啊"},{"start":235.239,"end":256.85,"text":"在這種情況之下我不知道啊主委你知不知道其實台灣啊共產黨對台灣的統戰無所不用其極你知道剛剛我聽了很多委員在講說藝人怎麼樣藝人那當然是一個例子主委你知道嗎我們現在有很多電台"},{"start":258.275,"end":268.085,"text":"幾乎他的談話內容很多都是在替中共產黨宣傳你們知道這件事嗎我們有了解我們也積極在查處"},{"start":270.202,"end":297.301,"text":"怎麼查處跟委員報告特別是那種小型的地方電台或是個別的網紅都一直是中國大陸對台統戰的重要對象那我們也常看到他邀請這些地方電台或地方的媒體或是個人網紅到中國大陸去做參訪那回來可能就交付很多任務那麼在"},{"start":299.31,"end":321.969,"text":"這個中國大陸如果有資訊進來的話就會由他們做這個重要的管道散出這個就是我們在掌握的在以前國民黨國民黨執政的那時候我們還沒有戒嚴前啦我們還沒有戒嚴前啦戒嚴時代這種叫為匪宣傳是要抓去關的"},{"start":323.511,"end":343.686,"text":"可是我不知道你們有沒有那麼多的能力去監聽這些電台甚至媒體這些你們有這麼多能力嗎是不可能的但是我們還是要積極的去讓民眾了解你如果說像我們反滲透法"},{"start":344.847,"end":370.048,"text":"你接受中國大陸的指示委託資助在台灣又從事不法行為這個可能要加重處罰我這樣子講啦民眾這些都知道啦但啦像這個真的很過分的這些因為坦白就像主委說的啦小的電台他本身要生存下去就不容易啦人家有給他好處"},{"start":371.308,"end":381.728,"text":"它就像一個商業型的置入性嘛但你的置入性你不能違反一些原則嘛那如果有違反一些原則的我覺得跳一兩格來"},{"start":383.907,"end":394.557,"text":"來讓大家知道你這樣做是不對的啊是我覺得應該要這樣啊是 跟我們報告 其實我們國人警覺性有大幅提高像對這些小眾媒體或是網紅有一些談話他認為已經觸犯我們社會底線都會積極地跟陸委會或香港當局提出檢舉那我們也會積極地來查辦我覺得啦 很具體啦"},{"start":408.309,"end":420.273,"text":"陸委會你可以就這個跟相關的單位然後去跟他們開一個跨部會的會議去協調我跟你講他只要在上面賣藥講錯一個字講錯一個就罰了啊"},{"start":424.775,"end":442.548,"text":"表示是有人在特別處理這件事你不能跟他們合作嗎?對不對?他的內容有錯也是罰啊你光講錯這個健康食品跟醫療的什麼就罰了啊那這個為什麼他可以到處罰?這個為什麼我們抓不到?"},{"start":443.799,"end":465.555,"text":"這個我覺得執行上可以檢討一下啦那另外啦最後我要說不只這樣啊人家現在都已經積極的創造網你知道嗎有很多說去中國不管哪個城市參加歌唱比賽然後歌唱比賽呢"},{"start":467.281,"end":486.05,"text":"得前三名台灣的人對不對然後得前三名他還幫你出唱片然後幫你辦演唱會那他就培養一個網紅啦培養一個然後再透過他回來就像剛主委你講的做一些不合理的宣傳"},{"start":487.816,"end":511.883,"text":"人家都已經做到這樣了耶這個我相信你們應該也都有所掌握啦但有所掌握的情況之下我覺得合理的商業行為合理的什麼我們也不能去制止他們但他的言論只要有不對你就要積極處理啊我就舉剛剛的例子啊賣保健食品講錯一句話就要罰很多錢啊那你去調調看那個罰了多少然後連這個"},{"start":517.117,"end":537.695,"text":"你說政府沒有辦法去監控那我覺得這樣政府就無能了是跟委員報告特別在網路世界裡面我們要尋求這個數位的服務的管理那目前我們台灣還是要形成共識那截至目前為止"},{"start":539.596,"end":562.123,"text":"我沒有跟你講網路世界,我剛講的很清楚了喔哪些項目喔因為他的很多宣傳都會停在網路上面比如說網紅他一直透過這個網路平台來做載具那這個部分有些錯假消息的處理那確實我們要台灣社會要趕快形成共識因為在民主先進國家"},{"start":564.544,"end":579.435,"text":"這個數位服務法在像歐盟在2022年就已經立法其他像其他歐洲國家美國日本都有這個相關的立法我們台灣是還沒有這方面的立法主委我剛剛就講了啦是他賣保健食品講錯話就可以罰連續罰對不對那你連這個他為匪宣傳替共產黨講一些"},{"start":590.188,"end":619.494,"text":"就像網紅的講的這些都是要侵犯台灣主權然後在替台灣人洗腦的人這個我們政府竟然沒有辦法去處理我覺得不對啦是我覺得你們要去處理就好了是 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主委"},{"start":550.05,"end":571.318,"text":"我想因為中國大陸他們是包括共產黨他們是無神論他們對於宗教過去說他是這個壓迫人民的鴉片所以他們對宗教的管理是放在統戰部裡面統戰部所以他派的這個廟的主委是統戰部派的"},{"start":571.858,"end":593.218,"text":"對就是說他在從事兩岸的宗教交流很可能就基於統戰的因素那所以這個跟我們台灣有信仰的自由不同中國大陸是沒有信仰自由剛剛海基會說我們四位這個一貫道的道卿還被他們查扣還沒回來用刑法來起訴判刑已經起訴判刑"},{"start":595.1,"end":612.758,"text":"所以這個都是讓我們覺得兩岸的這個宗教交流固然我們應該推動因為畢竟台灣是一個宗教自由的國家那中國大陸就不是所以這個也就是我們希望未來的宗教交流要專業性不要賦予它"},{"start":614.019,"end":634.434,"text":"我這樣講好了啦,如果我們跟他一樣的話,我們某個廟的主委,就是陸委會,指派你變成主委去中國交流,在台灣不可能發生啦。不可能嘛。但是你現在在台灣看到來宗教交流的某一個主委,他有可能就是中國統戰部,任命你為某一個廟的主委來台灣做這些宗教的交流,是不是這樣?"},{"start":635.234,"end":660.521,"text":"當然我們願意促進兩岸的宗教專業性的交流如果說它沒有政治因素或是沒有統戰的因素純粹就是說對宗教的比如說儀軌包括整個他們的教義或是對於宗教的儀式這方面專業的交流我們都尊重"},{"start":661.802,"end":676.793,"text":"而不是說用統戰部台辦的人混進來做交流或是一直在執行他們是主神我們是分離在台灣進行各方面的這些遶境而且各縣市的遶境這種遶境活動在中國也不常見"},{"start":679.435,"end":695.1,"text":"為什麼都在台灣遶境連神的世界都要矮化我們所以我們要非常的關注他們透過宗教交流進行這方面的統戰作為這是我們要排除但是對於宗教交流專業交流我的時間到了連宗教都要統戰我們這句話 謝謝謝謝 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":381,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（10時9分）請邱主委。"],["主席：邱主委有請。"],["邱主任委員垂正：李委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：主委，辛苦了。我們去年內政委員會在審查陸委會的預算時，相信不管是執政黨委員還是陸委會都費盡心力，希望可以捍衛陸委會的預算，因為事涉我們對中國事務還有對中國研判等等的業務。在這邊我今天是正常質詢，想請問主委，在內政委員會被刪除3,200萬，但是最後在院會被刪除了8,800萬，這樣是算被刪了8,800萬還是1億2,000萬？最後送出來的結果是怎樣？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們整個預算過去在內政委員會……"],["李委員柏毅：內政委員會刪了3,200萬嘛！"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["李委員柏毅：然後到了院會又被刪了8,800萬，所以影響到陸委會的預算是加起來的1億2,000萬還是8,800萬？"],["邱主任委員垂正：被刪除的將近2億元，因為還有院會的……"],["李委員柏毅：2億是包含給海基會7,000萬的補助？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。"],["李委員柏毅：所以我剛剛的問題就是8,800萬加3,200萬嘛！"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們共被刪減1億9,418萬，創下陸委會成立以來被刪除最多的。"],["李委員柏毅：主委，有什麼很難做的？有影響到哪一些業務？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們感謝上禮拜一委員也有協助我們解凍……"],["李委員柏毅：解凍跟刪不一樣，先把刪的講出來。"],["邱主任委員垂正：刪的部分，包括業務費就被刪掉八千多萬，獎補助是一億零七百多萬，這個都是不可……"],["李委員柏毅：媒體宣傳費被刪了60%。"],["邱主任委員垂正：當然，這個也是被刪除了很多。"],["李委員柏毅：媒體宣傳費我覺得……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們原本正常的大樓維持費、水電費預計7月以後就無以為繼，所幸有解凍預算，讓我們可以正常……"],["李委員柏毅：我現在沒有跟你講解凍，解凍的部分國民黨全部肇事逃逸，都沒有來，我現在跟你講的是刪除啦！"],["邱主任委員垂正：刪除就是那麼多。"],["李委員柏毅：刪除部分的媒宣費影響到什麼？其實就是影響到剛剛很多委員質詢的內容，包含抖音裡面出現的形態，我現在整理成兩種，第一種就是剛剛講的，不斷有陸配或不斷有帶貨的網紅出現武統臺灣的言論等等，我們這樣看起來背後其實都有一套公式，鼓勵這些網紅來衝流量，衝了流量之後就是一種認知作戰。有了這些流量，他們就鼓勵，接下來就另外有這些在校園外面拍小學生等等的這些。陸委會如果沒有這些相關的宣傳費用，怎麼讓國人知道現在又發生了什麼事？現在又在洗哪一些觀念？現在可能又要教小學生跳什麼舞，背後又蘊藏哪一些他們想要認知作戰的東西？我覺得陸委會在這方面要非常、非常敏感。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員，因為我們的預算被刪除很多，特別是媒宣費用，所以我們同仁要自己去拍短影音的影片做宣傳。"],["李委員柏毅：主委，你有沒有用抖音？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我沒有。"],["李委員柏毅：我是建議你要……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們政府機關人員會觀察，但我們不能使用。"],["李委員柏毅：要觀察啦！一定要觀察啦！因為我們看到了大量認知作戰的內容，有時候想要舉報給政府單位，如果你們說沒有這個軟體、沒有辦法看，就永遠也不知道他們在做什麼"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我們都很關注。我要跟委員報告，截至目前為止，抖音有嚴重的資安，還會蒐集民眾個資的問題，所以我們政府機關是沒有在用。其實在校園內部也在宣導，校園內部的設備、網路都不可以使用TikTok，只不過現在民眾還是可以透過他的網路下載app來使用。整體而言，抖音並沒有合法落地，這也是我們要有效監管，雖然沒有合法落地，但是由於民眾可以自己下載，這個在我們查處抖音相關的問題上確實還缺乏一個法律……"],["李委員柏毅：其實不只抖音，包含臉書最近也被披露，以前臉書的一個前執行長出了一本書，裡面就講到臉書跟中共的關係，當貼文瀏覽超過1萬次，會自動提交總編輯進行人工審查，當六四或者是有一些特定時機的時候，臉書其實在中國就有一些東西會禁止的，尤其在香港雨傘革命的時候，臉書也發揮了很多這些暗黑的功能，所以臺灣面臨的不只抖音、不只臉書等各方面的這些認知作戰，或者是隱藏臺灣民主訊息的這些機制非常多，陸委會雖然在預算被凍及被刪除很多的情況下，還是要很努力的讓國人知道，目前這些統戰還有這些認知作戰的型態到底有多少？","今天我還整理了包含藝人的部分，我們的藝人到那裡被公式化必須做出某一些言論的時候，其實我們都很心痛啦！我們都覺得這些演藝或文化的交流，不應該有這些政治，但是都已經被要求了，不管是歌迷或者是政府很多都是採取包容，都知道他們去到那裡，他們就是被強迫做這些事嘛！還是有劃一些紅線，我在這邊表示支持，但是我們最大的還是包容，知道我們的藝人其實是被要求做這些事，紅線也要劃好。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，謝謝。確實我們跟文化部的行政查處小組除了管理之外，也要關懷。"],["李委員柏毅：對。"],["邱主任委員垂正：第一個，被政治要求表態……"],["李委員柏毅：這是「被」，不是他主張的。"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，很可能是這樣，或是經紀公司要求等等。另外，我們也了解這不是藝人自己，因為以我們臺灣人飲水思源的善良本質，不會去糟蹋當年在臺灣這塊土地支持培養他們的這些親友或是支持者，所以去到大陸，為什麼會如此的反常來傷害自己國家的主權，還有呼應對岸對臺軍演？這個我們也在懷疑，所以我們才會跟文化部組一個行政查處小組，一方面管理、二方面提醒風險、三方面就是關懷。"],["李委員柏毅：其實他們去到中國，可能要在某一個城市開演唱會的時候，會有一些申請的流程，這些申請的流程裡面可能就必須要簽署一些認同書，這也是「被」啦！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，所以我們能理解。"],["李委員柏毅：這我們要非常清楚，我想基於保護這些藝人，我們也不可能拿到這些可能有簽署哪一些認同書等等。最後跟主委探討一個問題，主委的觀念非常好，也突然打醒了很多這些宗教交流的人士，中國的宗教、中國的廟宇是他們的哪一個單位在管控？主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想是他們統戰部下轄的宗教……"],["李委員柏毅：統戰部之外，我知道的還有一些，中國是沒有信仰嘛！所以他們的廟其實都是各地方政府的觀光旅遊單位，他們觀光旅遊單位來到臺灣的時候，可能是申請到統戰部的經費來到臺灣交流，而中國這些廟宇來到臺灣的人士，跟臺灣的廟宇去到中國交流的人士是不一樣的喔！臺灣的廟宇去到中國的人士，大家都知道，這些廟宇很多都是真的關心信仰或者是地方人士組成的，而中國是誰組成的？主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：因為中國大陸包括共產黨都是無神論，對於宗教，過去說它是壓迫人民的鴉片，所以他們對宗教的管理是放在統戰部裡面。"],["李委員柏毅：是統戰部，所以他們這些廟的主委是統戰部派的？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，就是他們在從事兩岸的宗教交流，很可能就基於統戰的因素，這跟我們臺灣有信仰的自由不同，中國大陸是沒有信仰自由，剛剛海基會也提到，我們4位一貫道的道親還被他們查扣，還沒回來。"],["李委員柏毅：還沒回來。"],["邱主任委員垂正：用刑法來起訴判刑。"],["李委員柏毅：已經起訴判刑了？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，這些都讓我們覺得兩岸的宗教交流，固然我們應該推動，因為畢竟臺灣是一個宗教自由的國家，但中國大陸不是，所以我們希望未來的宗教交流要專業性，不要賦予它統戰的任務。"],["李委員柏毅：我這樣講好了，如果我們跟他們一樣的話，我們某個廟的主委就是陸委會指派你變成主委去中國交流，在臺灣不可能發生啦！"],["邱主任委員垂正：這不可能嘛！"],["李委員柏毅：但是現在臺灣看到來宗教交流的某一個主委，有可能就是中國統戰部任命你為某一間廟的主委來臺灣做宗教的交流，是不是這樣？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，當然我們願意促進兩岸的宗教專業性的交流，如果他們沒有政治因素或是沒有統戰的因素，純粹就是對宗教的比如儀軌，包括他們的教義，或是對於宗教的儀式這方面的專業交流，我們都尊重，而不是用統戰部、臺辦的人混進來做交流，或是一直在執行……他們是主神，我們是分靈，在臺灣進行各方面的繞境，而且是各縣市的繞境，而這種繞境活動，在中國也不常見，為什麼都在臺灣繞境？連神的世界都要矮化我們。"],["李委員柏毅：這句話是金句。"],["邱主任委員垂正：所以我們要非常的關注他們透過宗教交流進行這方面的統戰作為，這是我們要排除。但是，對於宗教交流及專業交流……"],["李委員柏毅：對，主委剛剛那一句話就是金句，我的時間到了，連宗教都要統戰我們，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝李柏毅委員。","下一位請張宏陸召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-20","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","李坤城","邱志偉","陳雪生","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145101_00006"}}},{"id":"161702","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161702","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7dbe1503cfbef2725d932bc34272b9029b3db0f420b3783afbde4ab110b5714ccc85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"09:57:48 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峽論壇"},{"start":55.063,"end":65.345,"text":"因為有利空救人,現在已經16年了你們以前是說我們不要去參加,但是最近你們是對政府說不要去喔這是強烈的說不要去,不要因此而去來主委,你解說現在的轉變是怎樣"},{"start":83.878,"end":105.714,"text":"跟委員報告,謝謝委員的質詢,這有關於海峽論壇那麼我們觀察那麼久,海峽論壇是中國大陸對台統戰的一個平台用來展現它對台統戰的成果,是一種大交流大合作的一個大平台每次參加的人數都非常的多"},{"start":106.995,"end":126.406,"text":"不過都在中國大陸設定的整個統戰活動裡面去展現它統戰的成果這個對我們國人赴去參加這個統戰平台我們是採取一種勸阻不要去所以我們中央官員是完全禁止"},{"start":126.986,"end":135.048,"text":"那地方官員呢地方政府呢我們也評估很多因為我們過去都說因為我們有下鄉去跟地方政府溝通有些地方政府跟我說過去我們那個不樂見地方政府去講得太模糊了可不可以具體一點"},{"start":147.791,"end":160.855,"text":"事實上我們的交流應該要去統戰化這種你平時可以去正常健康有序的交流但是不要在人家設定一個統戰的平台去"},{"start":161.707,"end":191.107,"text":"去幫人家做統戰的這種盆場反而會陷入到統戰的陷阱風險也比較多所以我們就希望他們不要去參加這個海峽論壇除了他自己政務人員不要前往他所屬的這些事業單位或是所屬的公務人員地方政府決定的也希望他們不要核准他們去"},{"start":191.847,"end":196.512,"text":"主委 本席跟你談到這件問題的時候 澳國的銀行要去辦了 到你沒錢為止你地方的政府有要去參加 你的帳戶有多少人 有帶一個官司要去嗎"},{"start":210.225,"end":212.206,"text":"交給我們報告,截至目前為止,並沒有收到地方政府的申請也跟委員報告...交給我們報告,交給我們事務委員,交給我們看什麼人會去"},{"start":224.906,"end":227.107,"text":"跟委員報告其實大家去參加這個海峽論壇它就是一個統戰的平台也經常口惠而實不至那使我們參加的人都去那邊沒有什麼失意而且相關的這些統戰的活動"},{"start":255.686,"end":264.87,"text":"1910年到今天,目前為止,這件事也沒有了我們就拭目以待,讓他相信我什麼人,全都已經參加了如果他有提出,我們也會提高,跟他提醒風險,會勸阻他如果他執意要去,我們還有一套,規勸的,如果你一定要去的話他如果不聽你的規勸,我一定不會來的"},{"start":280.694,"end":282.355,"text":"其實目前為止是沒有啦因為你說的這個時間還要辦如果要申請還要付所以你剛才的回答"},{"start":300.085,"end":304.048,"text":"也有人會去啦是有可能這樣我們要看什麼人會去啦不可以去鳳凰寨不可以去台湾買去啦如果既然站好好保護我看一看去哪裡去哪一家去哪一家真漂亮啦"},{"start":319.759,"end":335.825,"text":"常常在早餐台外的人來煮的,在這裡本身就跟你我們事務委員會落尾到目前為止你說沒有辦的,我們要看什麼人會去,因為落尾,你不用搞了"},{"start":337.125,"end":341.886,"text":"在這裡本身要跟你說 上禮拜五的十三的時候有一個新聞很大的說沙縣小吃來台灣開到九間店 但是在這個過程當中開店開很多 以前也沒開過但是這間店是國台辦出來開去才會說讚的主委你覺得這件事"},{"start":365.39,"end":377.64,"text":"我知道沙縣小吃在中國大陸都有類似的...沒有啦,我現在要問說來台灣開車要去,國台辦說因為它開機才會啦,說來俄羅斯啦,這有可能未來是同站喔啦,雖然你..."},{"start":386.089,"end":390.612,"text":"全都來申請台灣會做生意啦未來有可能發生什麼事嗎?我們要去議訪咧,不然發生的事是,我能去了解,感謝委員提醒我有三線小吃我如果問你這樣,你還想說不知道發生什麼事你還聽不懂,關於這個"},{"start":413.757,"end":424.464,"text":"因為他聽不說嚴重事件我們現在有了解他還是依法設立的當然啦 我剛才說依法設立啦有各種統戰或是不當的行為那我們也會依法查處截至目前為止還沒有發現任何違法的事情因為他說一個很嚴重的就是說兩岸一家會煙火共鳴"},{"start":442.976,"end":455.82,"text":"主委,我們這都要去最終去注意,在我來說,本身來說,你應該做為陸委會的主委,應該對政客,大家也要了解說實在,所有的單位,你們這單位就是要保護台灣的生存內容,這是很嚴重的"},{"start":468.259,"end":477.901,"text":"主委,在這幾個星期,你有說到說,啊,我們武統藝人的時候,開始要檢舉處理啦檢舉在我們兩岸條例裡面的三十三條之一的處罰裡面,我認為說,看來看去,我們從來就不罵藝人"},{"start":493.499,"end":510.07,"text":"出發過啦,我們都會想說,那個人又賺錢,他又一生不由己,有的藝人是太過惡勢了啦在這個過程當中,這個藝人,說到他連同台灣都沒有,他在中國,他選擇中國的好啦"},{"start":517.25,"end":522.294,"text":"像這個我們未來,我們真的要去加強這裡的兩岸條例法啦在這裡面,很多立委都要提案過,要退很多"},{"start":531.67,"end":558.966,"text":"要不然我要問主委是您33條1日1日您如何去處理來 回答一下感謝委員我們已經跟文化部合組這個行政這個查處小組那麼正在進行必要的查處作為我們最主要也是要跟藝人你們為什麼會在一個特定的時刻全體一致"},{"start":562.311,"end":578.91,"text":"發布傷害台灣的言論或者是附和中共軍演的這些貼文那這個確實不是自發的行為我們要了解背後真正的事實是什麼再來依法採取處分主委"},{"start":581.132,"end":587.454,"text":"硬硬的喔,你們的看法要顧緊啦你本身所了解的喔,我覺得太過敏了,要顧緊處理啦像你們的副主委說的,梁文傑說的說,我們硬硬的,如果發,這個藝人會說,我們會去換人,所以他也不敢做啦"},{"start":607.461,"end":610.244,"text":"你不要煩,不要衝啊,他生命也要做,國家賣去,他還有天理順利,他才會賣,所以主委,這是怎樣,本身說到這個才分開,一個國家,一個民族要流淚,是非常不簡單,"},{"start":626.403,"end":628.665,"text":"我這個人發明到今天主要的國家像剛才說的川普說的統一和平他是要說中美的關稅你認為他敢說這個川普是空空笑笑的誰是要變什麼我就變什麼你認為"},{"start":647.701,"end":649.863,"text":"這部份是針對中美經貿問題沒有涉及台灣美國國務院也正式說明這個跟台灣沒有關係是美中談判經貿的問題"},{"start":668.763,"end":669.983,"text":"所以我也覺得很奇怪,因為美國和中國,不是好評,不是同意,他們無緣無故去說這樣,造成台灣的混亂,所以那是毛環製造者,那是造勝你人的總統,"},{"start":688.81,"end":698.556,"text":"什麼人對有利益的一個要處理啦所以本席在這裡說你沒有什麼事情都有可能發生本席跟你說的這幾件你要最小去了解最小處理就好尤其我們的人民法33條之一之二要誇獎啟出以上好 感謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":315,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時58分）主席，請邱主委。"],["主席：邱主委有請。"],["邱主任委員垂正：王委員早。"],["王委員美惠：主委早。主委，最近教育部部長有說我們的國際交流不一定要限制於中國，不過在這個過程當中，我們的兩岸交流一定要有健康跟好感才能有交流？不過中國政府根本就不正常、不健康，我們要怎麼跟他有交流？在這個過程當中，海峽論壇從2009年辦到現在已經16年了，你們以前是說我們不去參加，不過最近你們是跟地方政府說不要去，且是強烈地說不要去、不允許他們去。主委，請解釋一下現在的轉變是怎麼樣？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，謝謝委員的質詢，有關於海峽論壇，我們觀察那麼久，海峽論壇是中國大陸對臺統戰的一個平臺……"],["王委員美惠：很大的活動。"],["邱主任委員垂正：用來展現他對臺統戰的成果，是一種大交流、大合作的一個大平臺，每次參加的人數都非常的多，不過都在中國大陸設定的整個統戰活動裡面去展現他統戰的成果，對於我們國人赴陸去參加這個統戰平臺，我們是採取一種勸阻不要去，所以我們中央官員是完全禁止，那地方官員……"],["王委員美惠：那地方呢？"],["邱主任委員垂正：地方政府我們也評估很多，因為我們過去都說……"],["王委員美惠：不是啦！評估很多……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我跟委員報告，因為我們也有下鄉去跟地方政府溝通，有些地方政府跟我們說，過去我們不樂見地方政府去，講得太模糊了，可不可以具體一點？事實上我們的交流應該要去統戰化，你平時可以去，正常、健康、有序的交流，但是不要在人家設定的統戰平臺，去幫人家做統戰的捧場，反而會陷入到統戰的陷阱，風險也比較多，所以我們就希望他們不要去參加海峽論壇。除了他自己政務人員不要前往，他所屬的這些事業單位或是所屬的公務人員，地方政府決定的，也希望他們不要核准他們去。"],["王委員美惠：主委，本席跟你探討這件問題的時候，下個月他們就要舉辦了，到目前為止地方政府有要去參加的，你掌握的有多少人？有哪一個縣市要去嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，截至目前為止，並沒有收到地方政府的申請，也跟委員報告……"],["王委員美惠：到今天、到昨天都沒有？"],["邱主任委員垂正：一件都沒有。"],["王委員美惠：這樣的話我們拭目以待，下個月看誰會去。"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，其實大家去參加這個海峽論壇，它就是一個統戰的平臺，也經常口惠而實不至，使我們參加的人去那邊沒有什麼實益，而且相關的這些統戰的活動……"],["王委員美惠：不是，我現在是問你說，你們以前是建議、建議，而現在是強烈地說不要去、不要去，那下個月要舉辦的時候，你跟我回答說，到昨天、到今天，目前為止……"],["邱主任委員垂正：一件也沒有。"],["王委員美惠：一件也沒有？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["王委員美惠：我們就拭目以待，看下個月誰帶隊去參加啦！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，如果他有提出，我們也會跟他提醒風險，會勸阻他，如果他執意要去，我們還有一套規勸的……如果你一定要去的話……"],["王委員美惠：他如果不聽你的規勸，他就一定要去呢？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是啊！我們就會跟他講……"],["王委員美惠：是就是表示還是有人去啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["王委員美惠：主委，這樣的話……"],["邱主任委員垂正：截至目前為止是沒有。"],["王委員美惠：因為剩下的時間要申請還是來得及。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["王委員美惠：所以你剛才的回答是說還是有人會去。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，有可能。"],["王委員美惠：那我們就來看誰會去，不要被人統戰，不要去把臺灣賣掉，既然那邊那麼好，乾脆把行李收拾好去那邊住、去那邊領薪水，不要常常在這邊糟蹋臺灣人。主委，那我們就拭目以待，到目前為止，你說還沒有人申請，那我們就來看誰會過去，因為6月馬上就到了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["王委員美惠：本席要跟你說，上禮拜5月13日的時候，有一個新聞做得很大，說沙縣小吃來臺灣開了9間店，不過在這個過程當中，雖然開店開很多，以前也曾開過，不過這是國臺辦出來開記者會說讚的店，主委，你知道這件事情嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我知道，沙縣小吃在中國大陸都有類似的飲食、商家。"],["王委員美惠：不是，我現在是在問說，它來臺灣開業，國臺辦還開記者會稱讚它，這有可能未來是統戰嗎？雖然它是合法來臺灣做生意，但未來有可能會發生什麼事情嗎？我們要去預防，不然發生的時候……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們會去了解，感謝委員提醒，不過沙縣小吃……"],["王委員美惠：我覺得我這樣問你，你還想說不知道是什麼事情，不知道會發生什麼，你還聽不懂！看你這樣子，好像還聽不懂其嚴重性在哪裡。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們現在有了解，它還是依法設立了……"],["王委員美惠：當然啦！我剛才就說它依法設立啦！"],["邱主任委員垂正：如果在這個餐廳裡面有各種統戰或是不當的行為，我們也會依法查處，截至目前為止還沒有發現任何違法的事情。"],["王委員美惠：它有講到一個很嚴重的詞，就是兩岸一家親的煙火共鳴，主委，這些我們都要相當注意才行。當本席跟你說的時候，你作為陸委會的主委，應該對每個情況都要有所瞭解，說實在的，在所有的單位中，你們這個單位就是要保護臺灣的生存，這可是很嚴重的事。","主委，上禮拜本席在這裡講到武統藝人的時候，你有說要開始嚴格處理，但是在兩岸條例第三十三條之一的處罰裡面，我看來看去，發現我們從來都不曾處罰過藝人，總是想說那些藝人要賺錢溫飽也身不由己，但有些藝人也太過惡質了，在這個過程當中，更誇張的是，這些藝人對臺灣的認同還不及他們宣導中國的好。像這種狀況，我們未來真的要加強兩岸人民關係條例，很多立委都針對此提過案，但也退掉很多，在此我要請教主委，針對第三十三條之一、之二，你們會如何處理？"],["邱主任委員垂正：感謝委員，我們已經跟文化部合組行政查處小組，正在進行必要的查處作為，最主要是藝人為什麼要在特定的時刻全體一致發布傷害臺灣的言論，或者是附和中共軍演的貼文，這確實不是自發的行為，我們要瞭解背後真正的事實是什麼，再來依法裁處、處分。"],["王委員美惠：主委，你們要趕快修正法案，就本席所瞭解的，我覺得你們太慢了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，我瞭解。"],["王委員美惠：要趕快處理才行。"],["邱主任委員垂正：好。"],["王委員美惠：就像你們副主委梁文傑講的，我們如果訂出罰則，這些藝人會想到自己可能被罰，就比較不敢這樣做；如果你不開罰也不處理，他們就什麼都敢做。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是啊！"],["王委員美惠：把國家賣掉，他們還賺得到利潤，有什麼不好？所以主委，為什麼本席講到這些就很憤慨？一個國家的民主要留下來是非常不簡單的，是靠著多少人的打拚才有今日自由的國家。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["王委員美惠：就像剛剛講的，川普說的和平統一，講的是中美的關稅，你認為他是在講這些嗎？川普瘋瘋癲癲的，隨時想怎麼變就怎麼變，你認為他是對中國這樣說的嗎？來，主委你講一下。"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員，這個部分是針對中美經貿的問題，沒有涉及臺灣，美國國務院……"],["王委員美惠：沒有涉及臺灣？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。美國國務院也正式說明這個跟臺灣沒有關係，而是美中談判經貿的問題。"],["王委員美惠：所以我也覺得很奇怪，他們美國和中國既沒有和平也沒有統一，怎麼會沒事講這個造成臺灣的混亂？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是啊！"],["王委員美惠：所以他真的是麻煩製造者。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["王委員美惠：他是生意人去當總統，什麼人對他有利益，他就會去處理，所以本席在此要說，什麼事情都有可能發生，本席跟你說的這幾件事，你們都要詳細去瞭解、仔細處理好，尤其是兩岸人民關係條例第三十三條之一、之二要趕快提出來。以上。"],["邱主任委員垂正：感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位我們請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-20","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","李坤城","邱志偉","陳雪生","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145101_00006"}}},{"id":"161701","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161701","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7dbd1deea5a5fa479d132bc34272b9029b3db0f420b3783afbdff11454beb88585d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:44:42 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提"},{"start":151.929,"end":171.32,"text":"這點我必須要跟主委報告所以現在很多國人都在關心我覺得台灣社會以及台灣民眾以及我們國際友人希望看到的是賴清澤總統在520就職演說的時候他對兩岸的關係他的見解是什麼而不是因為這個是非常重要其他人不一定會看賴清澤總統在其他內容的一些說明"},{"start":171.94,"end":194.868,"text":"所以在這邊很多專家寫者有提出來相關的問題是不是賴清德總統他是想要改變現狀就是他過去不管是這個蔡英文總統或以德輝總統他們的想法其實賴清德是想要改變的那第二個有很多人在講說很多專家寫者講說是不是賴清德總統有受到國外的一些壓力說請他在這個就職演說的時候不要去講這樣的內容"},{"start":195.888,"end":211.409,"text":"那就你這邊身為這個陸委會的主委你一定有給他相關的建議那你給他什麼樣的建議他為何在520就職演說的時候對兩岸關係置之未提是不是可以請你再強加說明一下是 跟委員報告反而跟委員所說的改變現狀剛好"},{"start":212.911,"end":240.059,"text":"是完全不一樣我們反而是要堅定的維護台海和平穩定的現狀那我們在過去已經強調所以艾總統有沒有接受到國外的指示比如美國的指示因為現在大家知道美國跟中國的關稅已經談下來了現在美國只有跟兩個國家談好關稅政策一個是英國一個是中國那是不是因為這樣子有受到美國的壓力請主委回答"},{"start":241.092,"end":251.404,"text":"委員的說法我是沒有,我們入委會內了,我們是沒有感受到了那你們當時有提說請總統不要對兩岸發聲,提出看法嗎?在總統就職演說的時候,你們有沒有提供相關的資料給總統?那他最後是選擇不談論相關的議題嗎?"},{"start":261.575,"end":287.349,"text":"我要問這個就是我剛有提到如果總統在五二零就職演說知識未提如何讓我們的友國讓我們台灣人民了解這個我們的台灣未來的走向到底是什麼方向我想委員剛剛有說他並不是知識未提他提了什麼十七項國安的這個因應策略的落實他沒有在就職演說的週年提這段話"},{"start":289.695,"end":296.037,"text":"我覺得他在回答記者有提到啦之前接受媒體採訪也有非常完整的這個兩岸的這個思考跟架構而且從去年520以來都"},{"start":314.981,"end":343.639,"text":"都 這個是很完整的越來越完整所以好 那我再簡單請教主委所以您針對賴清德總統在520就職周年談話隻字未提兩岸關係沒有隻字未提是帶過去的那提了什麼 提了什麼這裡面就是沒有提啊就六十七項的國安第一策略他沒有寫在裡面啊 主委這個白紙黑字我們一字一句都有看都是沒有提所以您認為他這樣的說法您是 您身為幕僚也身為入委會的主委您是覺得認同的還是覺得應該他未來要再多加敘述"},{"start":344.909,"end":369,"text":"我想我們國家因應國內外的局勢相當多的問題我想兩岸的問題他過去已經談論很多那也蠻完整的具體架構大家也都很清楚我想我們尊重他對於議題的選擇不過就兩岸的重點我想我們國人都很關注我們"},{"start":371.107,"end":398.448,"text":"我們整個國安團隊也都很關注好 謝謝主委那我希望說未來這件事情我還是我要重申針對我們國際的友人以及我們台灣的國人兩岸關係以及和平穩定我覺得對台灣國人很重要那我們希望說既然總統選擇的沒有知識未提我也希望說未來我們陸委會這邊一定要提供正確我相信是正確的資訊以及到底要不要提由總統自己來做決定好"},{"start":398.928,"end":423.464,"text":"第二個我想要請教去年520到現在滿一周年請問主委對兩岸的關係認為這一年是更好還是更不好以及我們過去一年兩岸我們所謂官方的溝通跟非官方的溝通不管是我們陸委會跟海基會我們的溝通的層級到哪裡針對司法互助我覺得人民最重要的是司法互助兩岸共打犯罪以及最重要的詐騙問題"},{"start":424.785,"end":440.321,"text":"我們台灣人最重視的這些問題我們陸委會跟海救已經過了一年了所以我想要請主委是不是簡單說明一下這些東西現在是不是有在進行還是現在因為兩岸是這個完全沒辦法溝通的情況下沒有辦法進行這樣的事情請主委回答"},{"start":441.189,"end":457.807,"text":"好 謝謝 我想兩岸關係的互動是雙方共同的責任那也許大家會覺得最近兩岸關係緊張這是我下一個問題台海的不安但是我要強調這個都是由於中國大陸對於我們"},{"start":460.229,"end":478.798,"text":"複合性的施壓而且步步進逼極限施壓不管是軍機間擾台外交打壓經濟脅迫社會滲透法律戰以及一連串的認知作戰灰色地帶侵擾滲透分化無所不在無口不入這些所造成對"},{"start":479.818,"end":497.776,"text":"整個區域跟台海不安以及整體兩岸關係緊張的根本因素主委好像沒有回答我的問題所以當然本席認為也是我們一定台灣一定要捍衛國家主權維持自由民主的生活方式所以下一題就是我要請教主委就是針對國人"},{"start":498.737,"end":518.451,"text":"但我們都想要兩岸要和平不要發生戰爭可是根據外交事務的期刊Foreign Affairs以及最近美國有開一個這個公聽會針對2027年這個有可能大陸會武力犯台那武力犯台的方式可能會第一個登陸台灣第二個或者是Blockade就是封鎖台灣或是甚至經濟上"},{"start":519.612,"end":537.768,"text":"經濟上或者是這個網路上的攻擊對這些東西因為不好意思在總統在就職演說沒有提到相關任何的內容請問列委會這邊有沒有跟總統討論或是跟國安單位討論如果能講就可以講如何防範降低風險以及降低國人對這個兩岸緊張情勢升溫的風險的這個考量謝謝委員"},{"start":542.892,"end":562.542,"text":"我想我們還是本於初衷在對等尊嚴能夠跟中國大陸來進行對話交流一直是我們對岸政策的主軸沒有改變我們也希望對岸能夠正視中華民國存在的客觀事實"},{"start":563.522,"end":579.699,"text":"同時面對兩岸問題在對等尊嚴我們來恢復各種有意義的交流讓兩岸關係能夠良性互動那同時面對中國大陸的極限施壓我們雖然對和平是堅持的總統也說"},{"start":581.641,"end":600.141,"text":"也說了很多這方面我們如何維護我們的國家安全我們的社會安定人民的福祉還是要靠我們自己就是落實總統所揭示的和平四大支柱行動方案也就是我們現在在前面落實14項的因應策略"},{"start":600.461,"end":618.076,"text":"好謝謝主委 沒錯台灣是要保護自己沒錯那我也其實為什麼今天會問這麼多問題其實台灣不只要靠自己也要靠國際社會上比如說我們的鄰國或是美國相關歐洲相關的協助來保護台灣所以是這點我是非常認同主委那最後我是不是可以請這個我們這個海基會進來的吳董事長謝謝吳董事長"},{"start":631.463,"end":646.742,"text":"吳董事長謝謝吳董事長剛剛就是這一年來對這個海基會的這個協助跟奉獻那剛剛有聽到你大概的說明其實你也講得非常清楚其實現在是對話是完全的這個中斷"},{"start":647.623,"end":675.063,"text":"那這個交流其實是一直不斷的在努力還在繼續努力的部分那剛剛你在講對話的部分你用四個字來形容叫做審慎樂觀那就是說是不是說本席這邊可以請你簡單除了審慎樂觀以外那未來兩岸的對話除了審慎樂觀以外有沒有其他你這邊想要來講的部分是不是可以請你簡單除了審慎樂觀以外再給我們一些其他的建議"},{"start":677.762,"end":702.014,"text":"我的看法是這樣子就中華民國而言和平絕對是我們這個國家最核心的利益可是對中華人民共和國難道不是嗎戰爭真的是沒有贏家那麼對岸現在內政問題焦頭爛額"},{"start":708.345,"end":735.929,"text":"一個友善的台灣對它比較好還是一個敵對的台灣對它比較好那麼在過去幾年來台海和平安行已經變成舉世關切的共同問題所以我認為北京的領導人只要真正的"},{"start":736.752,"end":765.292,"text":"考虑他们的国家利益他们应该还是希望和平我特别注意到现在对岸的领导人习近平主席跟我们内总统之间其实也难得有一个交集两个人都公开讲希望两岸和平发展这是历史的机遇我的神圣德观将来"},{"start":767.233,"end":771.225,"text":"好 董事長結束了嗎好謝謝好謝謝董事長好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":271,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時44分）謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員大家早。有請邱垂正主委。"],["主席：邱主委有請。"],["邱主任委員垂正：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：主委好。今天是有關陸委會跟海基會的質詢，首先，賴清德總統520就職剛滿一週年，也很感謝主委這一年來的辛苦，現在人民最重視的，不管是兩岸關係、臺灣的國際情勢以及關稅等等的相關問題，所以，當然賴清德總統任職滿一年的就職演說，我們都非常重視，我相信主委應該有全程聽完賴清德就職週年的談話，我想要請教主委，請問賴清德520滿週年的演講，針對兩岸的論述是什麼？可不可以請主委稍微簡單說明一下？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想520前夕他也接受很多媒體的採訪，就職演說那一天，我們也……"],["張委員智倫：是，就職演說的內容。"],["邱主任委員垂正：就是滿週年的談話……"],["張委員智倫：對。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們陸委會正在跟各部會積極地在落實17項國安威脅的因應策略，這個對我們來說是現在重中之重的事，不管是研修相關法律的法制作業，或者是積極的強化我們的整個管理機制，我們都在努力，同時也積極地在宣導，未來的交流如何回歸專業化、單純化、去風險化、去統戰化，這是我們努力的方向，也謝謝委員。當然，總統在答復記者的時候也提到，只要對等尊嚴，臺灣樂意與中國大陸進行交流、合作，我們長期以來一直表示，在對等尊嚴的原則下，兩岸可以進行健康有序的對話與交流，這些承諾我們沒有改變。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝主委，可是不好意思，您的看法跟我手上拿到的這份資料完全不一致。其實賴清德總統在520就職週年的演說，針對兩岸的問題是隻字未提，這點我必須要跟主委報告。現在很多國人都在關心，我覺得臺灣社會以及臺灣民眾以及我們的國際友人，希望看到的是賴清德總統在520就職週年演說的時候，針對兩岸的關係，他的見解是什麼，因為這個是非常重要的，其他的人不一定會看賴清德總統對於其他內容的說明，所以很多專家學者也提出相關的問題，是不是賴清德總統想要改變現狀？過去不管是蔡英文總統或是李登輝總統，他們的想法，其實賴清德是想要改變的？第二個也有很多專家學者在講，是不是賴清德總統有受到國外的一些壓力，請他在就職週年演說的時候不要去講這樣的內容？你身為陸委會主委，你一定有給他相關的建議，請問你給他什麼樣的建議，為何他在520就職週年演說的時候，對兩岸關係隻字未提？是不是可以請你再詳加說明一下？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。跟委員報告，剛好跟委員所說的改變現狀完全不一樣，我們反而是要堅定的維護臺海和平穩定的現狀，我們在過去已經強調……"],["張委員智倫：所以賴總統有沒有接受到國外的指示，比如說美國的指示？因為現在大家都知道，美國跟中國的關稅已經談下來了，現在美國只有跟兩個國家談好關稅政策，一個是英國，一個是中國，是不是因為這樣子有受到美國的壓力？請主委回答。"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員的說法，我們陸委會內部並沒有感受到，那我們……"],["張委員智倫：你們當時有提出請總統不要針對兩岸關係提出看法嗎？在總統就職週年演說的時候，你們有沒有提供相關的資料給總統，那他最後是選擇不談論相關的議題嗎？為什麼我要問這個，就是我剛剛有提到，如果總統在520就職週年演說中隻字未提，如何讓我們的友國、讓我們臺灣人民了解我們臺灣未來的走向到底是什麼方向？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想他並不是隻字未提……"],["張委員智倫：那他提了什麼？"],["邱主任委員垂正：17項國安因應策略的落實，他還是有提到這個。"],["張委員智倫：他沒有在就職週年演說中提這段話啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，是有的，您可以……"],["張委員智倫：全文裡面沒有寫，還是等一下會後我再給主委看一下，這個全文裡面沒有寫。"],["邱主任委員垂正：好。我覺得他在回答記者時有提到，之前接受媒體採訪也有非常完整的針對兩岸的思考跟架構，而且從去年520以來都是很完整的，越來越完整……"],["張委員智倫：好，那我再簡單請教主委，所以針對賴清德總統在520就職週年談話隻字未提兩岸關係，你是認為……"],["邱主任委員垂正：沒有隻字未提，是帶過去。"],["張委員智倫：那提了什麼？他提了什麼？這裡面就是沒有提啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：就落實17項的國安因應策略……"],["張委員智倫：沒有寫在裡面啊！主委，白紙黑字，我們一字一句都有看，都沒有提，所以您認為他這樣的說法，您身為幕僚、身為陸委會主委，您是覺得認同？還是覺得他未來應該要再多加敘述？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們國家要因應國內外局勢等諸多問題，有關兩岸問題，他過去已經談論很多，也蠻完整的，具體架構大家也都很清楚，我們尊重他對於議題的選擇，不過就兩岸的重點，我想國人都很關注，我們整個國安團隊也都很關注。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝主委。我希望未來這件事情，我還是要重申，針對國際友人以及臺灣國人，兩岸關係以及和平穩定，我覺得對臺灣國人很重要，既然總統選擇沒有隻字未提，我也希望未來陸委會這邊一定要提供正確的資訊，以及到底要不要提由總統自己來做決定。","好，第二個我想要請教，因為去年520到現在也滿一週年了，請問主委，你認為兩岸的關係這一年是更好，還是更不好，以及我們過去一年，兩岸所謂官方的溝通跟非官方的溝通，不管是陸委會還是海基會，我們的溝通層級到哪裡？針對司法互助，我覺得人民最重視的是司法互助、兩岸共打犯罪，以及最重要的詐騙問題，我們臺灣人最重視這些問題，已經過了一年了，所以我想要請主委是不是簡單說明一下，這些東西現在是不是有在進行，還是現在因為兩岸是完全沒辦法溝通的情況下，沒有辦法進行這樣的事情？請主委回答。"],["邱主任委員垂正：好，謝謝。兩岸關係的互動是雙方共同的責任，也許大家會覺得最近兩岸關係緊張……"],["張委員智倫：這是我下一個問題，這是我下一個問題。"],["邱主任委員垂正：臺海的不安，但是我要強調，這都是由於中國大陸對我們進行複合性的施壓，而且步步進逼、極限施壓，不管是軍機艦擾臺、外交打壓、經濟脅迫、社會滲透、法律戰以及一連串的認知作戰、灰色地帶侵擾、滲透分化，無所不在、無孔不入，這些都是造成整個區域跟臺海不安以及整體兩岸關係緊張的根本因素。"],["張委員智倫：主委好像沒有回答我的問題。當然本席也認為我們臺灣一定要捍衛國家主權，維持自由民主的生活方式……"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["張委員智倫：下一題我要請教主委，當然我們國人都想要兩岸和平，不要發生戰爭，可是根據外交事務期刊Foreign Affairs以及最近美國有開一個公聽會，針對2027年有可能大陸會武力犯臺，武力犯臺的方式可能第一個登陸臺灣；第二個或是blockade，就是封鎖臺灣，或是在經濟上或者是網路上的攻擊。針對這些東西，因為不好意思，賴總統在就職週年演說沒有提到任何相關的內容，請問陸委會有沒有跟總統討論，或是跟國安單位討論，如果能講的就講，如何防範降低風險以及降低國人對於兩岸緊張情勢升溫風險的考量？"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員。我們還是本於初衷，希望在對等尊嚴的原則下，能夠跟中國大陸進行對話、交流，一直是我們兩岸政策的主軸，沒有改變。我們也希望對岸能夠正視中華民國存在的客觀事實，務實面對兩岸問題，在對等尊嚴的原則下，恢復各種有意義的交流，讓兩岸關係能夠良性互動。同時，面對中國大陸的極限施壓，雖然我們對和平是堅持的，這方面總統也說了很多，我們要維護我們的國家安全、社會安定、人民福祉，還是要靠我們自己落實總統所揭示的和平四大支柱行動方案，也就是我們現在在全面落實17項的因應策略。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝主委。沒錯，臺灣要保護自己沒錯，我為什麼今天會問這麼多問題？其實臺灣不只要靠自己，也要靠國際社會上，比如說我們的鄰國或是美國、歐洲等相關的協助來保衛臺灣，這點我是非常認同主委。最後，我是不是可以請敬愛的海基會吳董事長？謝謝。"],["主席：吳董事長。"],["吳董事長豊山：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：吳董事長好。謝謝吳董事長這一年來對海基會的協助跟奉獻，剛剛有聽到你大概的說明，其實你也講得非常清楚，現在的對話是完全中斷，交流則是一直不斷在繼續努力。剛剛你在講對話的部分，你用4個字來形容，叫做審慎樂觀，未來兩岸的對話，除了審慎樂觀以外，你有沒有其他想要講的？除了審慎樂觀以外，是不是請你再給我們一些其他的建議？"],["吳董事長豊山：我的看法是這樣子，就中華民國而言，和平絕對是我們國家最核心的利益，可是對中華人民共和國難道不是嗎？戰爭真的是沒有贏家，對岸現在的內政問題焦頭爛額，一個友善的臺灣對他比較好，還是一個敵對的臺灣對他比較好？在過去幾年來，臺海和平安全已經變成舉世關切的共同問題，所以我認為北京的領導人只要真正考慮他們的國家利益，應該還是希望和平。我特別注意到，現在對岸的領導人習近平主席跟我們賴總統之間，其實很難得有一個交集，這兩個人都公開講希望兩岸和平發展，這是歷史的機遇，我的審慎樂觀是這樣來的。"],["張委員智倫：董事長，結束了嗎？好，謝謝、謝謝董事長。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員的質詢。","下一位我們請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-20","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","李坤城","邱志偉","陳雪生","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145101_00006"}}},{"id":"161700","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161700","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7dbdd041633cf01955932bc34272b9029b3db0f420b3783afbdd4763c261ae1c13a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:34:45 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我們也是跟委員一樣的想法跟做法我們除了提供給教育部、治安單位了解對學生、兒少的這個侵犯對 我們現在的這個層次嘛 個案嘛 對啊因為每個學校它扮演著重要的角色而且很多都是抄中國大陸口音那當然有些說是陸配我們也會跟陸配網紅 我們熟識的我們呼籲他們不要這個"},{"start":294.253,"end":307.677,"text":"影響兒少的相關法規 或影響校園安寧你這樣的去拍他們 那學生 師生都會心生恐懼所以你跟他討論的其實沒有講到什麼中國怎麼樣 中共怎麼樣你其實就是說 你這樣會打擾到小朋友喔而且是會有妨礙各自法 兒少法你也是這樣講而已嘛 對不對此外 我們都有把相關的影片傳給我們的安全單位 要去查查"},{"start":318.84,"end":347.263,"text":"主委其實我今天用這個例子不但是跟您再次的在質詢台與備詢台之間提供這樣的消息並且要求陸委會提供提高敏感度之外其實我也必須要說用這個例子我們可以看得到其實中國中共如果現在有系統有新的要來蒐集台灣的各種資訊用各種方法來蒐集各種資訊其實這個就是可以是一個例子因為"},{"start":348.084,"end":368.26,"text":"你其實他這個有統戰嗎 你不知道啊他是情收嗎 你知道嗎 你也不知道啊他有下指令叫這一些特定網紅從日常的直播改為去收集台灣的情資嗎可能甚至也沒有喔他沒有 他不需要下指令他只要做一個動作就好 他只要餵流量"},{"start":369.411,"end":395.7,"text":"他只要讓拍攝這種影片類型的人的流量可以突然竄高那這些網紅這些網路的使用者他就說唉唷最近口耳相傳之間拍攝某一種類型就好像提高網路流量欸那就可以幫我帶貨啊他根本不用接收指令他就只要用流量的部分就可以竄起來這就是手法啊對不對所以中國會這樣做那我們有什麼反制的動作嗎"},{"start":399.23,"end":427.743,"text":"我想我們一定要加強校園安全的維護那像這樣的一種侵入式的這種拍攝我想很多學校都反映學生都很惶恐那剛剛委員講了好幾個層次的國家安全每個層次我們都要全面的維護它對於不管是國家安全的層次對於國家重要基礎設施的維護以及它有可能是為了更施力"},{"start":428.203,"end":455.042,"text":"就是帶流量種種的那我想這是必要進行比較大規模的我的意思其實在這裡剛剛這樣一系列的討論下來就是說中國的手法其實它不斷的翻新它甚至不用用跟你講國家民族大義我要統一台灣它只要給你餵流量它就可以得到它想要的政治目的了那反過來我們其實也應該可以有多種不同的方式來"},{"start":456.483,"end":478.273,"text":"告訴人民應該要怎麼保護自己比如說如果在這邊你要跟他說這個就是中國網紅在幫中國刺探情報大家可能覺得說是嗎好像一時間沒有辦法接受可是反過來你告訴這些家長說你如果沒有在看到這種可疑人士拍攝孩子的時候"},{"start":479.534,"end":495.848,"text":"你把他制止而且大家守望相助的互相看互相制止你的孩子就有可能是為馬賽克的照片沒有馬賽克的照片流傳在網路上面你的孩子的安全可能受到威脅我覺得所有的家長一定會警惕啊是"},{"start":498.03,"end":515.564,"text":"所有的家長一定會警惕啊網紅可以為了流量要賣東西而做出有政治目的的狀況其實台灣人民也可以用各種的方式學習保護自己不只是保護國家的安全也是保護個人的安全"},{"start":516.064,"end":522.968,"text":"我覺得陸委會的策略方式和跟人民的溝通狀況不但應該更積極而且要更多元這是我今天質詢的目的不曉得主委認同嗎非常感謝委員的提醒我們會來全力朝這個方向來做不過我也跟委員報告我覺得在台灣生活的大部分的陸配網紅都是合法的而且他甚至不知道他做這件事情有什麼狀況"},{"start":543.94,"end":565.635,"text":"不過每一個個案都很重要我們都會一一來查處你甚至對如果主委提醒的很對所以如果在這樣的狀況下甚至我們應該讓這一些使用網路的網紅們了解說啊你這個流量突然變高了可能是因為有什麼狀況你要小心喔讓他們也有這個知識因為他們可能也不想做這件事情啊是"},{"start":566.656,"end":585.008,"text":"對不對所以我覺得這有好幾個層次的部分所以我再次的提醒我的結論是陸委會要跟全國民眾不分是哪裡來的不分是在這裡住多久的都應該要有各種多元不同的資訊傳遞保護國家以及個人的安全這是我今天質詢的主旨這樣謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":226,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時34分）謝謝主席，請邱主委。"],["主席：邱主委有請。"],["邱主任委員垂正：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委好。主委，我想跟你討論一下最近發生的事情，就是近期在臺北、高雄都有發生中國直播主在校園附近開直播，並且長時間拍攝學生的狀態，如果你在抖音上面搜尋「臺灣小學生」，我們打這五個字下去，其實會有很多東西跳出來。你看，螢幕上最後這一個就是打了關鍵字以後直接在app上面、抖音上面可以出現的狀況，其他是媒體已經披露的，可以說是相當的多。而且最重要的是小朋友都沒有受到馬賽克的保護，所以如果有心人士要辨識身分可以說是非常容易，甚至這些直播不只在學校附近，還會跟著孩子就直接到了安親班。對於這樣的狀況，請問陸委會這邊有掌握嗎？這是單一人士、單一定點嗎？還是什麼狀況？數量大概有多少，你們有瞭解了嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員，我想這有兩個層面，第一個是抖音網路平臺的問題，第二個是拍攝的活動在學校周遭……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，我現在問的是這樣的數量大概有多少，你有掌握了嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們遇到有這些……"],["蘇委員巧慧：應該有跟你反映過了嘛，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：有，我們都積極反映給……"],["蘇委員巧慧：而且你們也應該主動瞭解啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：教育部，還有治安單位，要查察以保護學生校園的安寧。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，所以數量大概多少？數量？"],["邱主任委員垂正：數量的部分，因為我們一收到這個……"],["蘇委員巧慧：至少不是單一事件嘛，對不對？絕對不是啦！"],["邱主任委員垂正：南部、北部的學校都有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：到處都有了嘛！"],["邱主任委員垂正：到處都有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：也不是單一的一個人，因為出現在非常多的頻道上面，這個應該陸委會也有掌握吧？沒有錯吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，我們有掌握，而且立即查辦。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，所以不是單一事件，不是單一人士，甚至不是抖音上的單一頻道，這樣的話，請問涉案人士的身分你們有掌握了嗎？大概都是什麼樣子的人，知道了嗎？如果同仁比較清楚，可以請同仁回答沒有關係。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們都有反映給治安單位，比較完整的調查報告應該要由治安單位來回復。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，就我們這邊掌握到的資料來看，第一個，在高雄的部分已經進行查察了，我們看到的狀況是這個拍攝的女生是從中國來的，來臺已經二十多年，已經取得身分證，看起來他就是一個生活的分享，單純開直播賣生活雜貨、分享生活，所以警方已經到女子家中訪查，也已經給他口頭勸告了，因為現在也還不知道是什麼狀況。另外，臺北的案件是許淑華議員在接獲消息後報案了，所以是在調查中。","沒有錯，陸委會主委剛剛的反應是這個事件現在在處理的程序，也就是說，因為他也只是在拍影像、在直播，現在第一個有可能的狀況是，只要他沒有經過家長的同意拍攝未成年人，基本上就是觸犯個資，甚至是兒少法，所以他有觸法的嫌疑，如果是單純這樣的事件，確實應該是要由警方來調查沒有錯，主委剛剛的回答是對的，所以現在在這個階段，高雄也是警方介入，臺北的部分也是議員已經去跟警方系統報備、報案了嘛。","我現在就進入到我的PPT上面的第二層次，甚至第三層次，主委，我要提醒，如果拍攝者是中國人，目前也不是只有單一頻道，他的身分很顯然比較敏感，我們是不是要開始有進一步的瞭解？如果這樣的數量是多的，在這短時間內出現這麼多拍攝學校周圍兒童的影片，是不是有什麼目的？尤其為什麼是學校？根據我們的災害防救體系來說，學校其實是我們的避難收容場所，這樣的大量直播攝影會不會又是另外一個國安疑慮呢？我覺得陸委會如果有敏感度的話，去瞭解這個事件，我想應該是非常合理的。主委，你的看法怎麼樣？"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員，我們也是跟委員一樣的想法跟作法，除了提供給教育部、治安單位瞭解對學生、兒少的侵犯，當然我們也有注意到……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，我們現在在這個層次，個案嘛！對啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：因為每個學校都扮演了重要的角色，而且很多都是操中國大陸口音，當然有些說是陸配，我們也會呼籲比較熟識的陸配網紅不要觸犯兒少的相關法規或影響校園安寧，這樣去拍他們，師生都會心生恐懼。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以你跟他討論的其實沒有講到什麼中國怎麼樣、中共怎麼樣，你其實就是說這樣做會打擾到小朋友，而且是會妨害個資法、兒少法，你也是這樣講而已嘛，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：此外，我們都有把相關的影片傳給我們的安全單位去查察。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委，我今天用這個例子，不但是跟您再次的在質詢臺與備詢臺之間提供這樣的消息，並且要求陸委會提高敏感度之外，其實我也必須要說，用這個例子，我們可以看得到，中國、中共如果現在有系統、有心的要來蒐集臺灣的各種資訊，用各種方法來蒐集各種資訊，這就可以是一個例子。他這個有統戰嗎？你不知道啊！是情蒐嗎？你也不知道啊！他有下指令叫這些特定網紅從日常的直播改為去蒐集臺灣的情資嗎？可能甚至也沒有喔！他不需要下指令，只要做一個動作就好，就是餵流量，只要讓拍攝這一種影片類型的人的流量可以突然竄高，這些網紅、這些網路使用者就會在口耳相傳之間知道拍攝某一種類型的影片好像可以提高網路流量，這樣就可以幫我帶貨，根本不用接收指令，就只要用流量的部分就可以竄起來，這就是手法啊，對不對？所以中國會這樣做，我們有什麼反制的動作嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想我們一定要加強校園安全的維護，像這一種侵入式的拍攝，我想很多學校都反映學生都很惶恐。剛剛委員講了好幾個層次的國家安全，每個層次我們都要全面來維護，對於不管是國家安全的層次，對於國家重要基礎設施的維護，以及有可能是為了個人私利，就是帶流量種種的，我想這就要進行比較大規模的查處。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委，其實剛剛在這裡這樣一系列的討論下來，我的意思就是說，中國的手法不斷地翻新，甚至不用跟你講國家民族大義要統一臺灣，他只要給你餵流量就可以得到想要的政治目的了。反過來，我們其實也應該可以有多種不同的方式來告訴人民應該要怎麼保護自己，比如說，如果在這邊你跟他說這就是中國網紅在幫中國刺探情報，大家可能覺得：是嗎？好像一時間沒有辦法接受。可是反過來，你告訴這些家長說，如果沒有在看到這種可疑人士拍攝孩子的時候予以制止，而且大家守望相助的互相看、互相制止，你的孩子就可能有未馬賽克的照片流傳在網路上面，你的孩子的安全可能受到威脅，我覺得所有的家長一定會警惕。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所有的家長一定會警惕啊！網紅可以為了流量要賣東西而做出有政治目的的狀況，其實臺灣人民也可以用各種的方式學習保護自己，不只是保護國家的安全，也是保護個人的安全，我覺得陸委會的策略、方式和跟人民的溝通狀況，不但應該更積極，而且要更多元，這是我今天質詢的目的，不曉得主委認同嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：非常感謝委員的提醒，我們會全力朝這個方向來做，不過也跟委員報告，我覺得在臺灣生活的大部分陸配網紅都是合法的……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！而且他甚至不知道做這件事情有什麼狀況喔……"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員所指涉的這些可能是個別的，不過每個個案都很重要，我們都會一一來查處。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，主委提醒得很對，所以在這樣的狀況下，甚至我們應該讓這些使用網路的網紅們瞭解到，這個流量突然變高了可能是因為有什麼狀況，要小心喔，讓他們也有這個知識，因為他們可能也不想做這件事情啊，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我覺得這有好幾個層次的部分。我再次的提醒，我的結論是陸委會要跟全國民眾，不分是哪裡來的，不分在這裡住多久的，都應該要有各種多元、不同的資訊傳遞，保護國家以及個人的安全，這是我今天質詢的主旨。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝，謝謝委員提醒。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員。","下一位請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-20","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","王美惠","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","李坤城","邱志偉","陳雪生","高金素梅","丁學忠"],"page_start":191,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145101_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1145101_00006"}}},{"id":"161699","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161699","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db98f186fbe8577f3856f20d851a8422b7db0f420b3783afbd63f6e4fc8f5519665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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有請何安慧陳主委"},{"start":11.668,"end":33.421,"text":"主委好 今天521那在5月17號我們的核三要停機除疫的前夕我們立法院在5月13號有去把核管法的修法三讀通過那大家都說就是等於是重啟核一核二核三研議幫他開綠燈啦"},{"start":35.763,"end":49.295,"text":"那開完了綠燈呢昨天520那我們又表決通過了這個公投的這個核三研議的公投那這個主文你看一下"},{"start":50.636,"end":68.984,"text":"這個主文他有被修過喔他是做修正動議之後說您是否同意第三核能發電廠經主管機關同意確認無安全疑慮後繼續運轉原本是沒有主管機關同意喔"},{"start":69.984,"end":82.138,"text":"這是修正動議之後也就是說呢要把所有的球要丟給和安會丟給台電那請教主委您覺得怎麼樣有沒有覺得責任重大還是稀鬆平常和安會是個監管單位對於"},{"start":90.928,"end":108.791,"text":"要不要使用核電 要不要研議 要不要重啟 核安會沒有既定立場所以我們核安會那怎麼辦呢 你沒有既定立場 他說公投的主文說要經主管機關同意確認無安全疑慮"},{"start":111.257,"end":136.846,"text":"我們的理解是要不要提起研議或重啟應該是台電跟他的主管機關來做決定的所以意思就是說跟核安會沒有關係所以你的意思是說這個指的是台電跟經濟部他們要提出申請我們在按照有沒有台電在這邊"},{"start":139.751,"end":161.456,"text":"好像沒有所以這個部分您認為這個公投主文跟你們無關因為是台電要提出申請是經濟部要同意確認無安全疑慮是這樣嗎是由經濟部來同意確認安全無疑慮經濟部提出我們河岸會才能夠來審查"},{"start":165.143,"end":191.545,"text":"昨天張啟凱委員這麼說他說從現在開始要不要用核電就看台電要不要提出申請 您說的對看看民進黨政府有沒有去做安全檢查檢查完才可以用那民進黨政府有沒有去做安全檢查主委 你有沒有去做安全檢查現在還沒有 還沒有啊你要不要去做安全檢查"},{"start":194.71,"end":198.462,"text":"要先評估啊對啊那你誰評估"},{"start":203.214,"end":229.302,"text":"這個部分的程序的話我想請我們那個高組長再詳細說明一下來跟委員說明那會議裡面的核安會目前就按照大院所修正的核管法條文去配合修訂執法跟一些管制的要求當然這個過程中我們會參考一些國際的要求跟國內情境然後定一些相關的技術規範跟管制的一些要求事項"},{"start":231.422,"end":259.932,"text":"所以你們承認嘛 到底安不安全之後台電公司要按照這個去確認他現場設備然後看他要不要申請他確認完評估 確認說他有沒有重啟的條件那如果他認為說他符合安全要求跟法規要求那也經過國際的同儕檢視說他可以申請的話那他就要向核安委提出依照法規提出要不要做環評這部分依照法規的話要由環境主管機關來認定所以也不是你們"},{"start":261.269,"end":287.141,"text":"所以核安會管的是什麼訂定執法台電公司提出申請也完成現場檢查確定他要提出申請之後那核安會會去審查他的安全評估報告跟現場去查證所以顯然意思就是說我們的整個社會其實搞不清楚哪一個部會管什麼哪一個部會負責什麼哪一個部會主管什麼對不對表示我們的社會大眾搞不清楚啊"},{"start":291.906,"end":304.154,"text":"但是大家都知道一件事就是我們的修法通過了也要公投了然後全國2300多萬的人"},{"start":308.976,"end":336.314,"text":"要幫這個公投 河山 恆春 車城 滿洲 牡丹請問一下主委您知不知道這四個鄉鎮人口數多少報告員 我並不知道我跟您說不到五萬人我知道人數不多不到五萬人也就是說不到千分之二然後我們要來舉辦公投"},{"start":338.578,"end":361.979,"text":"您覺得合理嗎?這個東西我們沒有這個沒有這個既定立場要不要公投我們只是負責好沒有關係因為我今天看到我們這個新增通過決議解凍書面報告就有提到這個結語的部分他說"},{"start":366.075,"end":381.305,"text":"要求台電公司推動中期暫時儲存設施方案以為因應並展開社會溝通然後第三點有提到和安會處召開處置管制討論會議加強監督台電處置計畫作業外將持續邀集經濟部及原民會召開會議共同督促台電公司推動中期暫時儲存設施方案"},{"start":396.255,"end":422.806,"text":"來 請教一下主委 方案是什麼報告委員 這個方案是行政院非核家園小組要求台電公司在地方選址困難的情況下希望能夠興建一個中期暫時儲存設施來做因應我剛剛都念過了是 所以這個方案其實就是要興建一個中期暫時儲存設施"},{"start":424.392,"end":437.22,"text":"那請教一下 你們說要持續邀集經濟部 園民會召開會議這是什麼意思 園民會要做什麼提供土地"},{"start":440.412,"end":467.489,"text":"這個方案裡面其實它目前經濟部要負責督促台電公司去做選址的工作那因為這個方案其實它因為也涉及到那個在兩公約裡面有一個有一個議案說明那這個兩公約裡面的這個相關的議案是由原民會當協辦由經濟部跟河南會當主辦所以原民會要負責什麼"},{"start":468.89,"end":485.242,"text":"他來瞭解我們的進度而已不是提供土地不是確定確定這會記錄下來喔是好那我希望齁社會溝通我知道你們一直都在做啊社會溝通的成果是什麼真的如他們所講的嗎我們70%的民意都贊成嗎社會溝通的成果是這個嗎我剛剛說了喔"},{"start":498.382,"end":503.372,"text":"在河山那邊 對他們有領發電金 他們有電協會台電有給他們發電金但是"},{"start":510.48,"end":532.609,"text":"蘭嶼他要把低放的核廢料要趕出蘭嶼40年沒有成功還有委員曾經公然的在質詢台上對原民會主委說蘭嶼人不想簽出核廢料因為這樣他們就沒有辦法享受優惠引起嘩然"},{"start":537.659,"end":551.381,"text":"那現在也有人放風聲說恆春插成滿洲牡丹的人也希望河山能夠繼續研議因為他們有補償金這個是社會溝通的成果嗎這確實有證據嗎可以講這樣的話嗎那蘭嶼人這40年做了多少的抗爭"},{"start":565.799,"end":594.31,"text":"要把這個惡靈趕走 都是假的嗎我想這個社會溝通這樣子做是很糟糕的我們不能接受我希望河安會也好 不要老是講到台電經濟部因為我們也都會去質詢 園民會我們也會去質詢但是不可以去拿出這樣的一個社會溝通成果非常的歧視 非常的傷害人沒有人希望自己的土地是骯髒的"},{"start":595.492,"end":622.28,"text":"那些高喊的人他連一點點的核食 核安他都不能接受他怎麼能夠接受核能可能產生的一個無法彌補回復的巨大危害呢這是很奇怪的一件事情所以我們常常講別有居心啊啊我們的電我每次台電董事長也很生氣啊不要再拿電費漲價跟核電有關係"},{"start":625.325,"end":630.307,"text":"主委 你是專家 如果我們的電要漲 是因為跟核電有關係嗎你不能每次都講主管業 你是專家 至少比我是專家啊"},{"start":646.687,"end":672.642,"text":"我覺得這個部分還是由主管單位回答比較適合我們只是負責核能安全的部分而已我想因為時間到我們要問中研院就下次再問但是我想這個部分核安會責無旁貸你們是講核安第一連核廢都處理不來核廢就已經是很不核安了很不安全了"},{"start":673.922,"end":679.508,"text":"我希望河安這個地方能夠拿出一些態度好不好好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":532,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（10時48分）謝謝主席，有請核安會。"],["主席：有請核安會陳主委。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：好。我知道社會溝通你們一直都在做，但是社會溝通的成果是什麼？真的如他們所講的嗎？我們70%的民意都贊成嗎？社會溝通的成果是這個嗎？我剛剛說了，對！在核三那邊他們有領發電金，他們有電協會，台電有給他們發電金。但是蘭嶼要把低放的核廢料趕出蘭嶼，40年沒有成功，還有委員曾經公然地在質詢臺上對原民會主委說，蘭嶼人不想遷出核廢料，因為這樣他們就沒有辦法享受優惠，引起譁然。現在也有人放風聲說恆春、車城、滿州、牡丹的人也希望核三能夠繼續延役，因為這樣他們有補償金，這個是社會溝通的成果嗎？這確實有證據嗎？可以講這樣的話嗎？蘭嶼人這40年做了多少的抗爭，要把這個惡靈趕走，都是假的嗎？我想社會溝通這樣子做是很糟糕的，我們不能接受。","我希望核安會也好，不要老是講到台電、經濟部，因為我們也都會去質詢，原民會我們也會去質詢，但是不可以拿出這樣的社會溝通成果，非常的歧視，非常的傷害人，沒有人希望自己的土地是骯髒的。那些高喊的人連一點點的核食、核安都不能接受，他怎麼能夠接受核能可能產生的無法彌補回復的巨大危害呢？這是很奇怪的一件事情。所以我們常常講別有居心，台電董事長也很生氣，不要再說電費漲價與核電有關係，主委，你是專家，如果我們的電要漲價，是因為跟核電有關係嗎？"],["陳主任委員明真：電價方面的事情，坦白講，不是我們的主管業務。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你不能每次都講主管業務，你是專家，至少比我是專家。"],["陳主任委員明真：我覺得這個部分還是由主管單位回答比較適合，我們只負責核能安全部分而已。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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麻煩局長請蔡局長"},{"start":8.044,"end":29.516,"text":"好 謝謝主席 萬文局長辛苦我先就國安簡報這件事情請教我們國安局當然這是總統在他的高度要進行的業務那裡面要報告的內容不管是經由國安會或者國安局情報的收集我想你們業務上應該是有相關我第一個請教就是說"},{"start":31.363,"end":61.205,"text":"就我們過去以案例來講有進行國安簡報的制度大概是從第十任總統陳水扁總統開始當時他是以美國有類似的制度他是參考美國的制度對於總統候選人因為你們都即將成為國家元首不管你開的政見甚至於你的維安保護也提升到總統規格所以只僅限總統候選人我印象那時候副總統也沒有嘛副總統候選人沒有嘛"},{"start":61.645,"end":75.403,"text":"但總統候選人可以帶副總統候選人過來但是邀請的對象第十屆陳水扁總統那時候任內是邀請各政黨的總統候選人來進行所謂的國安情勢的簡報沒有錯嘛"},{"start":77.761,"end":105.02,"text":"對 當時是這樣 但我們去年在執行的過程當中有的候選人是有帶副總統過來的後續我們就變成一個建立起來一個慣例成為總統副總統候選人之後我們在總統競選期間會邀請候選人的團隊總統跟副總統候選人來聽取國安簡報對國家的方向有一個了解這個是對我認為這個不分黨派這個是穩定該做的所以馬政府時候也有做吧"},{"start":105.72,"end":110.746,"text":"都有都有做嘛所以以往的慣例是這個那根據的法律依據是什麼這個部分當然我知道委員比較關切的重點是說檢報內容要是涉密的話該怎麼辦我看到我們國家機密保護法第14條就是說它有一些"},{"start":127.463,"end":134.768,"text":"我在上位者上級機關有核定權責人員他可以書面授權或核准違憲現在我們三軍統帥決定邀請總統副總統候選人來聽取國安簡報簡報內容應該有牽涉機密所以"},{"start":144.754,"end":161.816,"text":"過去總統副總統在執行的時候那個候選人在執行的時候他是根據什麼法律依據授權可以進行這個檢報就我們國安局負責的部分是針對總統副總統候選人的一個檢報的涉及那也是依照相關的法律必須要由我本人那什麼法律"},{"start":163.117,"end":187.492,"text":"國家機密保護法或是我們的相關機密的作業的原則由我本人來確定檢報的內容要和密我和密的這個單位我針對特定對象予以解密嘛那聽取機密的人員他原來沒有這個機密等級那因為和密單位可能是總統可能是國安局長因為和密單位予以解密了他可以來聽取這個機密了"},{"start":189.033,"end":207.496,"text":"那接下來這個涉密的內容的保護跟人員的管制你們怎麼處理對我們一般在核密之後在檢報過程當中一開始就會提醒聽取檢報的人要注意到你接下來所聽到的檢報內容有涉密那也提醒他們相關的涉密內容他們要不要簽切結書"},{"start":208.778,"end":219.188,"text":"當時我記得並沒有特別簽切結書但是在會場上有特別做這樣的提醒會宣示嘛我們在國防外交委員會立委進來我們要聽取機密我們要簽一張切結書"},{"start":221.499,"end":249.633,"text":"對那確實說根據來源也是國家經貿保護法我跟委員說明的是我們當時的總統候選人的簡報我們當時核密的等級是密等一般的公務沒有到絕對機密沒有到絕對機密及機密所以內容內容是到密對密而已沒有到極機密跟絕對機密在我們的作業當時沒有涉及到國家的等級的機密未來會不會牽涉到這個這要看到時候內容坦白講要根據國安簡報的內容我們就是普通件"},{"start":250.633,"end":266.982,"text":"機密 絕對機密 那個極機密跟絕對機密嘛所以在以往的做一道密嘛 當然還是機密嘛那我的意思說根據法律 我告訴你這是一個我覺得民主社會的特殊狀態我可以接受 也就是說這個人還沒有當選總統副總統"},{"start":268.823,"end":294.348,"text":"他其實跟我們在場每一個人一樣我們都是老百姓嘛對每個人都一樣因為他即將要選總統而且登記成為候選人所以我們才會提供國安等級的保護因為他是候選人不管他會被當選我都要假設他會當選所以縱使他是一般平民百姓沒有揭秘的等級我還是要對他揭露嘛這點是在保密"},{"start":295.228,"end":315.775,"text":"跟民主選舉活動的一個平衡點可是我現在要請教你就是那經由核密單位我解除機密對他揭露了哪怕只是密等那他也有保密的義務跟權利嘛所以你剛才講的以往是沒有簽借結書但是有告知他法律的責任嘛那接下來他要不要接受管制"},{"start":317.366,"end":343.203,"text":"管制的部分委員指的是出境還是指的是根據這個機密如果是某甲接觸到是公務人員他要接受什麼管制那我現在只是因為我成為總統候選人我看到了我要不要接受一樣的管制好像沒有一般沒有因為跟委員說明一下教委員談的是出境的管制的話目前大概是兩岸人民關係條例跟機保法有提到涉密的公務人員他出境是要受到管制他為什麼可以豁免不用接受管制"},{"start":344.464,"end":369.737,"text":"因為這部分要有一個法律的依據 目前可能還有不是不是 法律的依據是要管制欸我摸到這個機密 法律的依據是要管制我不能因為他地位尊崇 他選過總統不然就被誰啊他可以 我說在民主的運作 OK可以我為什麼現在一直要跟你研究這一塊因為接下來是政黨領袖他其實對一般人來講就是尋常百姓我因為民主活動的"},{"start":372.561,"end":393.8,"text":"這個狀態我尊重你代表的是主要政黨我尊重你是總統副總統候選人我可以接受但他一旦和密單位對他揭露機密了他碰到了他看到了他知道了那對機密的保護對機密的管制人員的管制應該要有一套做法那個沒有禮遇啊也沒有豁免啊可是過去好像就豁免了齁"},{"start":394.44,"end":417.788,"text":"沒有 這兩個部分喔 一個我剛剛在跟委員說明的是出境的部分啦齁出境的管制的部分依照激發法或兩岸人民關係條例 涉密的公務員是被管制的那委員剛所提到的這個類型 一般的民間人士只是因為他有政治的地位 那來聽的話這部分出境管制沒有 但是他在我們提醒告知的這是一般涉密的內容他假如有揭露 轉述的違法 法律他沒有豁免啦"},{"start":420.709,"end":425.342,"text":"法律沒有豁免但是在管制的行政作為上好像有豁免有啦"},{"start":428.226,"end":453.528,"text":"你們沒有管制啊就是沒有法律的依據來做那你能確保因為現在好我們現在進到現在賴先生總統說指示國安團隊你是在裡面嘛指示國安團隊向在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報一樣只到密嗎不會到機密絕對機密到時候看各部會提報的內容是什麼不一定啊因為不一定一旦他碰到絕對機密一旦他碰到極機密"},{"start":455.356,"end":475.607,"text":"我可以接受在民主的運作當中對於總統副總統候選人對於主要在黨的領袖揭露國家的重大機密這個是民主社會的常態但民主社會還有另外一個常態就是法律的規範應該一視同仁他沒有豁免權就是沒有豁免權那請問接下來對他們要不要進行相關的管制"},{"start":476.243,"end":501.424,"text":"沒有 管制的部分我覺得還是要有更明確的法律依據你才有辦法來進行相關出入境的管制他接觸機密 絕對機密或極機密他接觸了嘛對阿針對這樣的機密我們本來就有一些管制作為阿是啊 但他假如違反我們的管制的話那就違法了但委員假如說是出入境的管制的話目前的法律依據對於這一類的人沒有去管制他出入境的所以現在這一塊是空白"},{"start":501.804,"end":516.103,"text":"這一塊沒有法律依據所以他聽完了還是可以來來去去但是違法的話我們一來可以透過我現在只要把狀態弄清楚我弄清楚也不要避免再當主席一聽個機密兩年不能三年不能出國"},{"start":516.704,"end":544.164,"text":"我們要把它弄清楚來嘛所以我現在是詢問的角度因為這一塊在民主的運作當中是要累積成慣例的像總統副總統候選人經過陳水扁總統馬英九總統OK他就變一個慣例他沒有法制化也變成一個慣例反而以後哪一任總統不對總統副總統候選人揭露這樣的機密的話反而他會被社會質疑說為什麼你不做這就是慣例在法律上它有一定的意義可現在是在野黨主席第一次嘛"},{"start":544.864,"end":560.844,"text":"史上首次嘛所以我們就要請教了所謂像在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報你怎麼去define定義在野黨主席我們在野黨很多耶是指在國會有席次的還是任何在野黨"},{"start":561.705,"end":580.762,"text":"對 這部分可能要由府方來做相關的規劃跟安排所以定義還沒有出來那委員一直在意跟關切是在於說聽完之後有沒有一些管制的機制沒有沒有 我不只在意這個 定義很重要因為我不是講一般的那種完全沒有選舉的政黨我們在政黨補助裡面有規定拿了1.5%的選票會怎麼樣3%的選票會怎麼樣 5%的選票會怎麼樣嘛"},{"start":585.005,"end":608.392,"text":"參與不分區的分配 領取政黨補助金 我們都有那個門檻所以我作為一個 比方說任何一個在野黨主席都會認為說 我會黨啊 對不對台灣有很多政黨啊 有賭博最大黨 什麼亂七八糟 很多什麼 有的有沒有的我的意思是說 對在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報那個定義要出來 是指在國會有席次 這是一種定義"},{"start":609.452,"end":638.661,"text":"或者有領取我們國家的一票五十塊錢的政黨補助金的叫做在野黨主席這個要想清楚有有那我們現在走的是哪個方向對 跟各位報告一下這個部分我們在內部會議有討論啦那但是對外的發佈我覺得要最重要你沒有權力發佈有府方來對外整理說明所以大概就是這兩種方向已經有討論了已經有討論了這兩種方向府方來對外說明對 我剛才講就大概這兩大方向嘛一種是有國會席次的一種是有領取政黨補助的嘛"},{"start":639.796,"end":651.633,"text":"大概就這兩個方向 你不會有第三個方向啊或者有議員席次的也可以這由府方來發布 那委員的一些研判我尊重因為這是國安情勢的"},{"start":653.715,"end":671.021,"text":"我一個參軍統帥認為需要把在野黨找來做國安情勢的簡報一定有重要的事情那這重要的事情誰應該參與應該要對國家有益嘛因為這是例外狀況嘛那未來可能變常態啊那所以例外狀況第一次就很重要我到底是對誰簡報"},{"start":674.574,"end":696.028,"text":"對誰簡報以中央全國層次來講領取政黨補助金這是一個門檻就是說他其實有達到一定的民意支持度的在全國性或者是以國會有席次那這是兩個那如果以民意代表有席次有一席議員或者全國有兩席議員那個要不要放進去這我尊重你們的判斷但應該是這個思路方向在考慮"},{"start":696.688,"end":717.13,"text":"跟委員說明一下內部會議委員剛剛關切的問題我們都已經有討論那正式對外的發布跟說明由府方來說明那我跟委員剛剛在討論意見交流過程當中我是在分享國安局過去的做法不管是在核密以及核密之後人員的管制我們一般的經驗上實務上的意見我最後其實要問的問題是"},{"start":718.271,"end":745.203,"text":"國安局的專業判斷認為這樣的做法未來要不要法制化還是因為因應每一個時期的特殊狀況尊重元首依照局勢的判斷是法制化比如說什麼樣的在野黨在什麼樣的條件下他可以來進行國安檢報檢報之後他去負擔什麼樣的法律責任是保密的法律責任或者要接受人員的管制這個法制化嘛另外一種就是我"},{"start":746.023,"end":765.72,"text":"這是國家元首的特權privilege由國家元首決定什麼樣的局勢對誰做什麼樣的揭露而揭露管制就根據這樣的揭露內容你們有什麼樣的建議我想基本上是這樣要不要啟動這樣的機制應該要尊重國家元首總統的權責這是一個政治決定第二部分是在內部討論的過程當中以國安局來講"},{"start":766.801,"end":787.076,"text":"相關的一些法制面規範面要注意的事情我們會提供在內部會議討論的時候來做一些意見的交換跟決定在一起由府方那你認為該不該法制化你沒有告訴我答案啊但我內部的會議我沒有辦法轉述對有沒有法制化的打算都有討論我沒有在剛剛委員提到問題大概都有稍微都有討論嘛都有討論那也應該有結論嘛"},{"start":789.861,"end":808.563,"text":"你不能替他宣布嘛 那什麼時候會宣布 府方會適時揭露我先講本席的立場 我認為國家是大家的 我們政黨黨派立場也許不一樣但是如果面對國家需要團結一致因應的時候 我個人是贊成情報共享 建立制度"},{"start":809.324,"end":829.018,"text":"那在沒有制度下依循往例基於國家機密國家利益該保護的保護該負責的負責該負法律責任法律責任該管制的管制那這個部分如果未有明確之規範透過慣例的建立是一種第二種透過法治化也是一種那因為局勢常常訊息萬變"},{"start":831.139,"end":847.084,"text":"給總統因為這是總統的專屬權力讓總統有特殊情況的判斷來進行相關的簡報我也可以接受但是那個範圍有一些東西還是要講清楚否則現任元首謹守奮計你如果遇到一個元首不謹守奮計找來他自己的"},{"start":848.344,"end":865.434,"text":"這個朋友一起來分享的時候那該怎麼辦你懂我意思嗎就是說這個事情是國家的首例我覺得可以讓它往正向發展所以我才花了一點時間跟你討論過去的往歷那我們希望盡速看到府方揭露相關的因應作為謝謝局長尊重委員意見"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":318,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時46分）謝謝主席，麻煩請局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：局長，辛苦了。我先就國安簡報這件事情請教你們國安局，當然，這是總統在他的高度要進行的業務，裡面要報告的內容，不管是經由國安會或者國安局情報的蒐集，我想你們業務上應該有相關。我第一個請教的是，就過去的案例來講，有進行國安簡報的制度大概是從第10任陳水扁總統開始，當時他是以美國有類似的制度……"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：他是參考美國的制度，對於總統候選人，因為他們可能即將成為國家元首，不管是開的政見、甚至於維安保護也提升到總統規格，所以僅限總統候選人，在我的印象中，那時候副總統候選人也沒有嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：但總統候選人可以帶副總統候選人過來。"],["王委員定宇：對，我們邀請的對象……第10屆陳水扁總統那時候任內是邀請各政黨的總統候選人進行所謂國安情勢的簡報，沒有錯嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，當時是這樣，但是我們去年在執行的過程當中，有的候選人是有帶副總統候選人過來的。"],["王委員定宇：對，後續我們就變成建立起來一個慣例，就是成為總統、副總統候選人之後，在總統競選期間，會邀請候選人的團隊、總統及副總統候選人來聽取國安簡報，對國家的方向有一個瞭解，我認為這個是不分黨派，是為了穩定該做的，所以馬政府的時候也有做吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：都有。"],["王委員定宇：都有做嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：歷來都有。"],["王委員定宇：所以以往的慣例是這個。根據的法律依據是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：就這個部分，我知道委員比較關切的重點是，簡報內容要是涉密的話該怎麼辦……"],["王委員定宇：該怎麼管理。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，大概知道是這樣。"],["王委員定宇：我看到國家機密保護法第十四條規定「……上級機關有核定權責人員以書面授權或核准者為限」。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：現在我們三軍統帥決定邀請總統、副總統候選人來聽取國安簡報，簡報內容應該有牽涉機密，所以過去總統、副總統候選人在執行的時候，是根據什麼法律依據授權可以進行這個簡報？"],["蔡局長明彥：就我們國安局負責的部分，是針對總統、副總統候選人的簡報設計，也是依照相關的法律，必須要由我本人批核。"],["王委員定宇：什麼法律？"],["蔡局長明彥：國家機密保護法，或是我們相關的揭密作業原則，由我本人來確定簡報的內容，要核密。"],["王委員定宇：等於是核密的這個單位是針對特定對象予以解密，聽取機密的人員，他原來沒有這個機密等級，因為核密單位可能是總統、可能是國安局長，因為核密單位予以解密，所以他就可以來聽取這個機密了，那接下來涉密內容的保護以及人員管制，你們怎麼處理？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們一般在核密之後，在簡報過程當中，一開始就會提醒聽取簡報的人要注意，接下來聽到的簡報內容有涉密，也提醒他們相關的涉密內容在會外……"],["王委員定宇：他們要不要簽切結書？"],["蔡局長明彥：我記得當時並沒有特別簽切結書，但是在會場上有特別做這樣的提醒。"],["王委員定宇：我知道，會宣示嘛。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：我們在外交及國防委員會，立委進來要聽取機密，我們要簽一張切結書。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：切結書的根據來源也是國家機密保護法。"],["蔡局長明彥：我跟委員說明，當時總統候選人的簡報，我們當時核密的等級是密等，一般公務的密等……"],["王委員定宇：沒有到絕對機密？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有到絕對機密、極機密……"],["王委員定宇：OK，所以內容是到密……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，到密而已。"],["王委員定宇：沒有到極機密跟絕對機密？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，在我們的作業，當時沒有涉及到國家等級的機密。"],["王委員定宇：未來會不會牽涉到這個？"],["蔡局長明彥：這要看到時候的內容……"],["王委員定宇：坦白講要根據國安簡報的內容嘛。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員定宇：就是普通件、機密、絕對機密跟極機密，所以以往的作業是到密，但那還是機密嘛，我的意思是，根據法律而告訴他這些內容，我覺得這是一個民主社會的特殊狀態，我可以接受，也就是說這個人還沒有當選總統、副總統，他其實跟我們在場每一個人一樣，我們都是老百姓，每個人都一樣，但因為他即將要選總統，而且登記成為候選人……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，是正式登記之後。"],["王委員定宇：所以我們才會提供國安等級的保護，因為他是候選人，不管他會不會當選，我都要假設他會當選，所以縱使他是一般平民百姓，沒有揭密的等級，我還是要對他揭露，這點是保密跟民主選舉活動的一個平衡點，可是我現在要請教你的就是，經由核密單位，解除機密並對他揭露了，哪怕只是密等，他也有保密的義務及權利嘛。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們會進行告知。"],["王委員定宇：你剛才講以往是沒有簽切結書，但是有告知他法律的責任，接下來他要不要接受管制？"],["蔡局長明彥：管制的部分，委員指的是出境還是指的是……"],["王委員定宇：根據這個機密，如果是某甲接觸到公務人員，他要接受什麼管制？現在只是因為他成為總統候選人而看到了，需不需要接受一樣的管制？好像沒有喔？"],["蔡局長明彥：一般沒有，跟委員說明一下，假如委員談的是出境管制的話，目前大概是兩岸人民關係條例跟機保法有提到涉密的公務人員出境要受到管制。"],["王委員定宇：他為什麼可以豁免不用接受管制，根據什麼法律？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分要有法律的依據，目前可能還沒有……"],["王委員定宇：不是、不是，法律的依據是要管制，我摸到這個機密，法律的依據是要管制，不能因為他的地位尊崇、他選過總統，但沒選上就是一般老百姓。我說這是民主的運作，OK、可以，但我現在為什麼一直要跟你研究這一塊？因為接下來是政黨領袖，其實對一般人來講，他就是尋常百姓，因為民主活動的狀態，我尊重你代表的是主要政黨，我尊重你是總統、副總統候選人，我可以接受，但一旦核密單位對他揭露機密了，他碰到了、他看到了、他知道了，對於機密的保護、對機密的管制、人員的管制應該要有一套作法，因為那沒有禮遇也沒有豁免，可是過去好像就豁免了？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，這分為兩個部分：一個是我剛剛跟委員說明的，是出境管制的部分，依照機保法或兩岸人民關係條例，涉密的公務員是被管制的，委員剛剛所提到的，這個類型，一般的民間人士只是因為他有政治地位而來聽的話，這部分並沒有出境管制，但是他在我們提醒告知了這是一般涉密的內容，他假如有揭露……"],["王委員定宇：揭露還是違法啦！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，他是違法的。"],["王委員定宇：法律沒有豁免這部分嘛。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這部分沒有。"],["王委員定宇：法律沒有豁免，但是在管制的行政作為上好像有豁免，有啦，你們沒有管制。"],["蔡局長明彥：就是沒有法律的依據做確實的管制。"],["王委員定宇：好，我們現在就進到現在的主題，賴清德總統指示國安團隊，你在裡面嘛，賴總統指示國安團隊向在野黨的主席進行重要國安情勢簡報，一樣只到密嗎？不會到極機密或絕對機密？"],["蔡局長明彥：到時候要看各部會提報的內容是什麼。"],["王委員定宇：不一定。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，要看內容。"],["王委員定宇：因為不一定，一旦他碰到絕對機密、一旦他碰到極機密，我可以接受在民主的運作當中，對於總統、副總統候選人、對於主要在野黨的領袖揭露國家的重大機密，這是民主社會的常態，但民主社會還有另外一個常態，就是法律的規範應該一視同仁，他沒有豁免權就是沒有豁免權。請問接下來要不要對他們進行相關的管制？"],["蔡局長明彥：管制的部分，我覺得還是要有更明確的法律依據，才有辦法進行相關出入境的管制。"],["王委員定宇：他接觸機密、絕對機密或極機密，他接觸了嘛，針對這樣的機密，我們本來就有一些管制作為。"],["蔡局長明彥：是啊，他假如違反我們的管制的話，那就違法了，但委員假如說是出入境的管制的話，目前的法律依據對於這一類的人沒有去管制他的出入境。"],["王委員定宇：所以現在這一塊是空白？"],["蔡局長明彥：這一塊沒有法律依據。"],["王委員定宇：所以他聽完了還是可以來來去去？"],["蔡局長明彥：但是違法的話，一來我們可以透過新法的……"],["王委員定宇：我現在只是要把狀態弄清楚，我弄清楚，也避免在野黨的主席聽完機密兩、三年都不能出國，我們要把它弄清楚。我現在是詢問的角度，因為這一塊在民主的運作當中是要累積成慣例的，像總統、副總統候選人，經過陳水扁總統、馬英九總統，這就變成一個慣例，就算沒有法制化，也變成一個慣例，反而以後哪一任總統不對總統、副總統候選人揭露這樣的機密的話，他會被社會質疑說為什麼你不做，這就是慣例，在法律上這是有一定的意義；可是現在是在野黨主席，這是第一次、史上首次嘛，所以我們就要請教了，所謂向在野黨主席進行重要國安情勢簡報，你怎麼去define、定義在野黨主席？我們在野黨很多，是指在國會有席次的還是任何在野黨？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分可能要由府方做相關的規劃跟安排。"],["王委員定宇：所以定義還沒有出來？"],["蔡局長明彥：委員一直在意跟關切的在於聽完之後有沒有一些管制的機制……"],["王委員定宇：沒有，我不只在意這個，定義很重要，因為我不是講一般那種完全沒有選舉的政黨，在政黨補助裡面有規定，拿了1.5%的選票會怎麼樣、3%的選票會怎麼樣、5%的選票會怎麼樣，參與不分區的分配、領取政黨補助金，都有那個門檻。所以任何一個在野黨主席都會認為他可以啊，對不對？臺灣很多政黨，有賭博最大黨等等什麼亂七八糟的，很多有的沒有的。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我知道。"],["王委員定宇：我的意思是說，對在野黨的主席進行重要國安情勢簡報，那個定義要出來，是指在國會有席次，這是一種定義，或者是有領取我們國家的一票50塊錢政黨補助金的叫做在野黨主席，這個要想清楚。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["王委員定宇：那我們現在走的是哪個方向？"],["蔡局長明彥：跟委員報告一下，這個部分我們在內部會議有討論，但是對外的發布，我覺得要尊重府方。"],["王委員定宇：你沒有權力發布？"],["蔡局長明彥：由府方對外整體說明。"],["王委員定宇：所以大概就是這兩種方向嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：已經有討論了。"],["王委員定宇：這兩種方向嘛？"],["蔡局長明彥：由府方對外說明。"],["王委員定宇：我剛才講就大概這兩大方向，一種是有國會席次的，一種是有領取政黨補助的，就大概這兩種方向，你不會有第三個方向啊，或者有議員席次的也可以。"],["蔡局長明彥：這由府方來發布，至於委員的一些研判我尊重。"],["王委員定宇：因為這是國安情勢的……一個三軍統帥認為需要把在野黨找來做國安情勢的簡報，一定有重要的事情，這重要的事情誰應該參與，應該要以對國家有益的角度來看嘛，因為這是例外狀況，未來可能變常態，所以例外狀況的第一次就很重要，到底是對誰簡報？以中央全國層次來講，領取政黨補助金，這是一個門檻，就是說他其實在全國性有達到一定民意支持度的，或者是國會有席次，這是兩個，如果以民意代表有席次，有的有一席議員，或者全國有兩席議員，那個部分要不要放進去？這個我尊重你們的判斷，但應該是這樣的思路方向在考慮。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，跟委員說明一下，委員剛剛關切的問題，在內部會議我們都已經有討論，正式對外的發布跟說明，由府方來說明。剛剛我跟委員在討論、意見交流的過程當中，我是在分享國安局過去的作法，不管是在核密以及核密之後人員的管制，我們一般在經驗上、實務上的一個理解。"],["王委員定宇：好。其實我最後要問的問題是，國安局的專業判斷認為這樣的作法未來要不要法制化？還是因為因應每一個時期的特殊狀況，尊重元首依照局勢的判斷？是法制化，比如說什麼樣的在野黨在什麼樣的條件下，他可以來進行國安簡報，簡報之後，他需負擔什麼樣的法律責任，是保密的法律責任或是要接受人員管制？這是法制化；另外一種就是，這是國家元首的特權（privilege），由國家元首決定什麼樣的局勢對誰做什麼樣的揭露，而揭露管制就根據這樣的揭露內容。你們有什麼樣的建議？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想基本上是這樣，要不要啟動這樣的機制，應該要尊重國家元首──總統的權責，這是一個政治決定；第二部分是在內部討論的過程當中，以國安局來講，相關的一些法制面、規範面要注意的事情，我們會提供，在內部會議討論的時候做一些意見的交換跟決定，再一起由府方對外公布。"],["王委員定宇：那你認為該不該法制化？你沒有告訴我答案。"],["蔡局長明彥：內部的會議我沒有辦法轉述。"],["王委員定宇：有沒有法制化的打算？"],["蔡局長明彥：都有討論，剛剛委員提到的問題大概都有稍微注意。"],["王委員定宇：都有討論嘛。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，都有討論。"],["王委員定宇：也應該有結論嘛。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，但我沒有辦法公開轉述秘密的……"],["王委員定宇：你不能替他宣布，什麼時候會宣布？"],["蔡局長明彥：尊重府方相關的……"],["王委員定宇：府方會適時揭露？"],["蔡局長明彥：會。"],["王委員定宇：我先講本席的立場，我認為國家是大家的，我們政黨黨派的立場也許不一樣，但是如果面對國家需要團結一致因應的時候，我個人是贊成情報共享建立制度。在沒有制度下依循往例，基於國家機密、國家利益，該保護的保護，該負責的負責，該負法律責任的負法律責任，該管制的管制，這個部分如果未有明確之規範，透過慣例的建立是一種；第二種，透過法制化也是一種。因為局勢常常瞬息萬變，這是總統的專屬權力，讓總統依特殊情況的判斷來進行相關的簡報，我也可以接受，但是那個範圍有一些東西還是要講清楚，否則現任元首謹守分際，你如果遇到一個元首不謹守分際，找他自己的朋友一起來分享的時候，那該怎麼辦？你懂我的意思嗎？這個事情是國家的首例，我覺得可以讓它往正向發展，所以我才花了一點時間跟你討論往例，我們希望儘速看到府方揭露相關的因應作為。謝謝局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：好，尊重委員的意見，也謝謝委員的提醒。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員，洪孟楷委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","請林憶君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":42,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-16","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","林憶君","陳培瑜","陳永康"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-05-21"],"gazette_id":"1145201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1145201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"處理院會交付114年度中央政府總預算決議，國家安全局預算凍結案等24案","agenda_id":"1145201_00001"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}